# Did melkor join second music of ainur?



## Turin_Turambar (Jul 16, 2021)

Is there any source about this subject? Did melkor join second music of ainur?


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## Erestor Arcamen (Jul 16, 2021)

No


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## Turin_Turambar (Jul 24, 2021)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> No


But? https://www.quora.com/Would-Melkor-...ysical-means-but-through-their-evil-influence


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## Olorgando (Jul 25, 2021)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> But? https://www.quora.com/Would-Melkor-...ysical-means-but-through-their-evil-influence


Ecthelion, that's just a different site doing - more or less - what we do here. A *lot less*, I would hypothesize, as in the quick browse I only found less than a handful of posts that claimed to quote Tolkien writings (by JRRT and Christopher), and only two (IIRC) that actually quoted the source, at most a chapter.
I did not check any of these few for quoting accuracy. The rest are just stating opinions, which *may* or *may not* be supported by Tolkien writing.
Now at least some of us here on TTF do provide some more information on sources, TH and LoTR having been published by JRRT during his lifetime, the Sil, UT, and HoMe (and CoH, B&L and FoG) afterwards by Christopher. But still, TTF is *not* a reliable source in the Internet.
I don't really know which *very* few sites would qualify as reliable sources. If you remain skeptical of 99%, perhaps 99.99% of them, you're of the safe side.


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## Elthir (Jul 27, 2021)

*Ecthelion*, if you mean is there a direct reference to this from JRRT, then (to echo *EA*) no.

There's a new book coming out called _*The Nature of Middle-Earth*_ (or "*GNOME*" as no one calls it),
but so far, Morgoth joining the Second Music isn't stated by JRRT in any text that I'm aware of, and -- whatever the following means or doesn't mean with respect to possible opinions or larger theories about redemption in Tolkien's World -- even in the myth where Melkor comes back at the End, he does not repent . . .

. . . Tolkien even went into a bit of detail (in Morgoth's Ring) as to how the already defeated Morgoth could rebuild himself and return, without repenting.

I realize you have linked to at least one person saying:_ "Tolkien makes it clear that, before the end, even Melkor and Sauron will be redeemed. Being redeemed, they will not be evil. Being Ainu, they will play in the second music of the Ainur."_

But what are the primary sources (Tolkien texts or whatever) behind this "flow" of statements?
I assume there's something, but the person doesn't really flesh out an argument with sources.

This same person also misspells both_ Ilúvatar _. . . and _Eru_ (twice), so my attention to detail radar is up, but that could mean nothing obviously, and that said, I haven't given that much thought slash attention to matters that are arguably "needed" here -- in other words, needed to actually try to say something here with a measure of _seeming_ (LOL) confidence.

Although I know Galadriel was a "penitent" by the way 

*For possible clarity I'm not trying to make an argument either way*, because, as I say, I'd have to do a lot more thinking (and work!) to even begin.

And as *Gando* already pointed out, you're not exactly linking to the Tolkien Estate website there -- and this isn't the Tolkien Estate website either, but in general, citations are good. For instance, what does this mean ("they" refers to Men), from Ainulindale C (Morgoth's Ring):

"Yet it is said that they will join in the Second Music of the Ainur, whereas Ilúvatar has not revealed what he purposes for Elves *and Valar* after the World's end; and Melkor has not discovered it."

Okay that was a trick citation as Tolkien dropped "and Valar" for Ainulindale D


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