# What were the forces of the White Council?



## Celebthôl (May 11, 2003)

What where they?! i mean its not as if: Gandalf, Galadriel, Celeborn, Elrond, Saruman and Círdan (possibly Radagast) all actually sieged Dol-Guldur themselves, surely they had an army or somthing, where was it and surely it was elite and would prove amazingly useful in the last battle of the ring?!

comments and answers please!!!

Thôl


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## Lantarion (May 11, 2003)

Hehe, I think Tolkien purposely left that unclear.. He never anywhere indicates the actual 'magical' strengths, abilities or potentials of aany of the characters you listed.
I can't really imagine thw whole of the White Council surrounding a bit tower firing lightning bolts at it.  I think perhaps they contested Sauron mentally; invaded his mind and struggled there somehow.


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## Celebthôl (May 11, 2003)

hmmm. i never thought of it like that...until now  ta Lant, but there is this from EoA

For much of the Third Age, Sauron's stronghold was not in Mordor, which was ruled in his stead by the Nazgûl. Rather, the Dark Lord dwelt in the south of Mirkwood at Dol Guldur. In III 2941, the White Council sent their forces to drive him from Mirkwood, and he withdrew to Mordor once again. There, he began the rebuilding of the Dark Tower. Given the time taken in its first building, this cannot have been fully complete at the time of the War of the Ring in III 3019.

namely the bit about sending there forces, there is where my confusion lies...


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## Lantarion (May 11, 2003)

Yes, "their forces" would indicate the existence of more than just the little batch of Istari and Elf-lords/ladies.. Perhaps they had actual armed forces of Elves, but I can't see a multitude of Elves shooting arrows at a Maia and his impregnable stone citadel.


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## Celebthôl (May 11, 2003)

exactly, so it proves IMH anyway, a little riddle, which is bugging me no end


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## Ithrynluin (May 11, 2003)

I agree that they contested Sauron mentally and drove him out thus. I am unsure whether all of the White Council were present there (and if this would even be needed), but Gandalf certainly was. They must have had a strong force of Elves/Dunedain from Mithlond, Rivendell, Lórien and possibly Thranduil's realm to support Sauron's expulsion.


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## Celebthôl (May 11, 2003)

Why then did the white council not attemped to contended Sauron mentally altogether when he was returned to Mordor?!


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## Ithrynluin (May 11, 2003)

Like I said, apart from Gandalf it is uncertain whether any other members of the White Coucil were present. Maybe Gandalf's role in the whole affair was merely to oversee everything.
As for Mordor, it was much better protected and fortified than Dol Guldur, and there was no such strength left in Middle Earth that could assail Mordor with hopes of success.


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## Celebthôl (May 11, 2003)

oh im sorry, i thought you meant they contended with him in a place like Lorien or somthing, but yesh your theory is better cheers


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## Eriol (May 11, 2003)

Gandalf challenged Sauron to a gunfight duel at sunrise.



Or perhaps rapiers... lightsabres?? Hehe.

Of course Gandalf cheated, and went with Saruman, Galadriel, Elrond, etc. That's their idea of a "fair fight", the great _mafiosi_.

Sauron got wiser later and never left Barad-dûr, even with a lot of taunting from Gandalf (as shown in "The Black Gate Opens")

Hehe


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## Celebthôl (May 11, 2003)

well if he did leave Barad-dur at Gandalfs taunting he would still not have made it to the battle on time


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## FrankSinatra (May 13, 2003)

*Well*

Wouldnt Bilbo and the dwarves have noticed something happening in Mirkwood if a huge army was in passing?

Or perhaps, the deer that they encountered, were fleeing from an army?

I dont think the Elven-King was involved in any fighting though, otherwise he would not have been at home OR feasting in the woods. Especially if a war was on, as it were.


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## Ithrynluin (May 13, 2003)

Interesting point FS. We don't get a feeling that an army was sent either from Mirkwood or from Rivendell via the High Pass. Or maybe some forces from both these lands passed to Lórien long before and used it as a rendezvous point. It would certainly make sense assembling an army in Lórien since Dol Guldur was 'just across the water'.


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## Theoden_king (May 13, 2003)

*Re: Well*



> _Originally posted by FrankSinatra _
> *Wouldnt Bilbo and the dwarves have noticed something happening in Mirkwood if a huge army was in passing?
> *



Perhaps, but lets not forget the size of Mirkwood, Dol Guldur was miles away from the path that Bilbo and the dwarves followed (using the map for a rough estimate) so a small army could possibly pass by without the comnpany noticing.


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## FrankSinatra (May 13, 2003)

*Naturally*

But could a small army have taken Dol Guldur?

I would have thought it would take some considerable force.

Then again, it depends on how 'active' the white council members were, and we return to the methods they used.


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## baragund (May 13, 2003)

I prefer the contest of wills scenario between some or all of the White Counsel and Sauron. I agree with Frank's earlier posts that if there were large scale movement of soldiers that there would be at least some kind of passing reference to it in The Hobbit.

Also, Dol Guldur seemed to be relatively open. Remember how Gandalf procured the secret key to the side door of the Lonely Mountain? He entered Dol Guldur, visited with Thrain (I think), got the key and left seemingly without much difficulty.


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## Eriol (May 13, 2003)

I don't think we could say that he got in and out "seemingly without difficulty", since in the discussion about Moria that took place in the Fellowship he said that "only he had entered into the Dark Lord's stronghold, and only in his older and lesser stronghold at Dol Guldur". The context of this sentence (no book, no quotes, sorry) implies that entering Dol Guldur was much more difficult and terrible than entering Moria.

Gandalf was not one to blow his own horn, so he never bragged about that... but it seems getting into Dol Guldur was one of his bravest acts. I think there is a sentence of Elrond to that effect in the Council, as well.


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