# Know thy enemy?



## Ancalagon (Aug 3, 2003)

> For who of the living has descended into the pits of Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor? The Silmarillion


 Did Fëanor percieve Melkor more clearly than any among the Valar? Did Fëanor know his enemy more intimately because he read deep into the heart of Melkor and recognised some part of himself, revealed in he whom he hated most? Melkor has a subtle skill for concealment of his mind, as Manwë discovered more often than not, yet I would suggest that of all living things in Arda, Fëanor knew his mind the better. In saying this, still Melkor only revealed a little due to his own lust and bitter hatred for Fëanor, but enough. 


> But his cunning overreached his aim; his words touched too deep, and awoke a fire more fierce than he designed; and Fëanor looked upon Melkor with eyes that burned through his fair semblance and pierced the cloaks of his mind, perceiving there his fierce lust for the Silmarils. The Silmarillion


So, who indeed knew thy enemy? Who, if any, truly knew the mind of Melkor other than possibly Sauron himself? Sauron. This lends itself to another question and why he was so openly percieved among the wise, especially the bearers of the 3 great Rings of Power. Why could he not conceal himself as cunningly as his master?


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## Gothmog (Aug 3, 2003)

Just a quick off the cuff answer for now.

As for Feanor seeing more of Melkor than even the Valar, I think that you have hit right in the gold with that arrow. Feanor himself already had an unhealthy love of the Silmarils himself. So when in his lust Melkor named the jewels it did indeed spark a kindred flame.

But in the case of Sauron we have the problem that no mind can be compelled to give information. Any mind can close itself off from any or all others. Yet as you say, the bearers of the Rings of Power could perceive much of Sauron's mind. But this was only the case while the Three and the One were on the hands of the Elves and Sauron.

Sauron made sure that the lore used to make the rings was such that when he made the One he could use it to preceive the minds of the weilders of the Elven rings. I suspect that much to his chagrin he found out that in doing this he made it a "Two Way Street". Not only could he perceive what the bearers of the Elven rings were thinking and doing but those bearers could also perceive almost as much about him.


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## Ravenna (Aug 4, 2003)

I'm not so sure about the 'two way street' Gothmog.


> I say to you Frodo, that even as I speak to you, I percieve the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves. And he gropes ever to see me and my thought. But still the door is closed!


This from Galadriels's own lips seems to indicate that whilst she had some limited knowledge of Sauron's thoughts, he was blocked from the same access to her. 
Possibly this has something to do with the fact that Sauron did not actually assist in the creation of the Three, (except insofar as he taught the lore of such creation to the Elves initially), and therefore they were, as far as possible, free from his direct influence. 
Add to this the fact that Elrond also bore a Ring. If Sauron knew all his thoughts, then the Fellowship would have been doomed to failure from the start as all their plans would have been revealed before they even set out.
As to Sauron himself, we must not forget that he was not Vala, as a Maia, no matter how mighty, he would always be less than Melkor in both skill and power. 
This may seem a rather simplistic view of the matter, but it also seems to me to be a logical one.


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## Gothmog (Aug 4, 2003)

Ravenna,

I still say that Sauron opened a "Two Way" street by the lore of the Rings. What you have forgotten about is that when Sauron wore the One the Elves would not wear the Three. It was only after he had lost the One Ring that Elrond, Galdriel and Cirdan put on the Three once more. When Gandalf was given Narya by Cirdan Sauron no longer had the One.

So the points you are refering to do not change what I have said. For Sauron to perceive the minds of the bearers of the three he must wear the One. Galadriel it would seem by native power, nearness and her ring could see somewhat of Sauron even without him having the One. Elrond did not seem to have the same ability to see into the mind of Sauron at this time.

When Sauron first put on the One the Elves perceived him and his thought and took off their Rings. When Sauron lost the One the keepers of the Three then and only then put them on and used them. So while Sauron did not directly have a hand in their making they were made using the same lore as the rest with the same flaw in them, opening the mind of the wearer to Sauron by use of the One. As an unexpected side-effect it also opened the mind of Sauron to the Elves.


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## Ravenna (Aug 5, 2003)

Gothmog.
I stand corrected, and bow before your greater knowledge


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## Gothmog (Aug 5, 2003)

Even so all this is still only my opinion on the matter. So I could be well wide of the mark.


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## Ancalagon (Aug 6, 2003)

Sauron on the other hand, seems more transparent, moreeasily determined by those of great will and strength of mind. Certainly the ringbearers in any case percieved him and knew him, but consider also for a moment one unlikely other: Denethor, Steward of Gondor. I would contend that Denethor initially was able to wrestle with Sauron before Sauron broke him, possibly moreso than Saruman could ever acheive, both of course using the Palantir as a medium! Consider then Aragorn, who also revealed himself, and in the process guaged a reaction that would put seeds of fear and doubt into his mind.


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## Gothmog (Aug 8, 2003)

I have talked with Anc. on MSN about the question of Denethor. My thoughts on this matter are as follows.

I don’t think that Denethor was able to penetrate the mind of Sauron unless the way the Panatiri worked was similar to the method that seems to operate in the case of the Rings of Power. In that there seems to be a direct path between the minds of the wearers of the Rings that allowed for a certain transparency so that each could perceive the thoughts of the others despite the ability of all minds to close themselves off to any or all other minds.

I think that Denethor did not perceive Sauron’s thoughts in this way. It is my view that Sauron himself allowed Denethor to see a portion of his mind to help in over-coming the strength of will of the Steward of Gondor who was not by any means a Weak person.

It had been my thought while talking to Anc. that Sauron did not know much of Men and that he was not too sure in his handling of Denethor at first. However, on thinking further about this matter, while I believe that it was only pure luck that allowed for the Rings he gave to Men to have as much of an effect on them as they did, after all at the time of the making of the Rings Sauron was only concerned with bringing the Elves under his control and thought that the Rings would do this. But when this plan failed and he had taken the Rings from the Elves, Sauron then gave them to Men and Dwarves. He saw how the rings affected these two peoples and over the years had brought many Men under his sway. This would have given him quite a lot of knowledge about Men.

Also long before the time of Denethor, Sauron had not only been to Númenor but had caused most of the Númenorians to turn from their trust in the Valar and friendship with Elves. So he must have known Men quite well by this time. Certainly the darker side of Manish nature. So when it came to Denethor Sauron quickly saw that he could not make him into a servant and so used a different option, that is to overwhelm him by showing the strength of Mordor and also more of the mind of Sauron than Denethor could cope with. 

In the case of Aragorn I think that the Strength of will of the rightful owner of the Palantír was something that Sauron had little experience of plus knowing that the heir of Isildur still lived was enough to give Aragorn the slight advantage for long enough to take control of the stone.


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## Arvedui (Apr 19, 2004)

This thread is moved out of the Guild of Ost-in-Edhil, and IMO it should perhaps trigger some responses from other members?


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## Inderjit S (Apr 20, 2004)

I think it is as Gothmog says, Fëanor knew the look of lust in Melkor’s eyes over the Silmaril's, because he had the same lust.

He knew him for what he really was beforehand. He had never liked Melkor, he had probably recognised his evil mind before. His intrinsic mistrust of Melkor would have led for him to have a greater understanding of Melkor and his lusts and plans, then maybe any others. Of course it was pretty remarkable for him to penetrate Melkor's facade of pseudo piety. He knew Melkor was the "bad guy" from the start, and so this led to an inherent mistrust of him.


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