# What happened to the sons of Elrond? (Elladan & Elrohir)



## Mina Pitcher (Apr 4, 2002)

Theres something ive been wanting to know for a while: do elladan and elrohir get killed? Id apprieciate any help on this...


----------



## Cian (Apr 4, 2002)

No, _Elladan_ "Elf-Númenórean" and _Elrohir "Elf-knight"_ (loosely translated) were said to have long remained in Rivendell after Elronds departure


----------



## Strider97 (Apr 4, 2002)

I first assume that you are asking if they get killed during the War of the Ring and the answer is no.

They return to Rivendell and remain their after their father Elrond leaves for the west. They are visited there by Celeborn who is also alone since Galadriel left w/Elrond for the west.

Tolkien says that there is no further information on the history of the two.

One train of thought is that by not leaving with their father they gave up their immortality and perished in the ME and that their spots were given to Sam and Bilbo.

Another train of thought is that they remained in ME for a while and eventually passed to the west.

I believe that they perished in ME like their sister. The choice of Elrond was sincee he choose the elves over man the choice to be able leave was given to him and his decendants to pass together into the west.


----------



## Mina Pitcher (Apr 4, 2002)

Ohhh, thankyou sooooooooo much!!! I cant believe how quick that was!!!


----------



## Ardamir the Blessed (Jun 13, 2004)

*I will now give seven additional theories of my own on whether Elladan and/or Elrohir received a mortal or immortal fate.* They are ordered from weakest to strongest (in my opinion):


*1) Elrond losing all his children, parents and brother to mortality is a theme.*

It is a fact that Elrond loses his daughter and brother to mortality. It is an event made very significant that Arwen does not leave Middle-earth with Elrond, and becomes mortal. Neither do his sons; they probably became mortal as well. Whether Eärendil and Elwing chose mortality is another matter not to be discussed here, but it would go well with this theory.

*Fate: MORTALITY for both* 


*2) The names Eluréd and Elurín, Elros and Elrond, and Elladan and Elrohir*

‘The Problem of _ros_’:


> He [Dior] gave to his elder son the name _Eluréd_, that is said to have the same significance, but ended in the *Bëorian* word _rêda_ 'heir'; to his second son he gave the name _Elurín_ [note 8: 'Remembrance of Elu': containing *Sindarin* _rîn_ from Common Eldarin _rēnē_ &lt; base REN 'recall, have in mind'.]





> Her [Elwing’s] sons she named _Elros_ and _Elrond_; and *after the manner of her brothers the first ended in a Bëorian word, and the second in an Elvish*.





> The names _Elros_ and _Elrond_ that Elwing gave to her sons were held *prophetic*, as many mother-names among the Eldar.


Elros received a mortal fate; Elrond an immortal one, and their prophetic names reflect this: Elros is a ‘Man-name’ (having a Bëorian ending) and Elrond an ‘Elf-name’ (having an Elvish ending). Of the names of the sons of Dior, Eluréd is a ‘Man-name’ and Elurín an ‘Elf-name’, and it may be that if they had received the choice of mortality or immortality, Eluréd would have chosen mortality and Elurín immortality. Or, maybe Eluréd’s heart was with the kindred of Men and Elurín’s with the Elves, and thus they (maybe prophetically) received those names. But of course, they never got the chance to receive any choice:


> Eluréd and Elurín, before they came to manhood, were both slain by the sons of Fëanor


And maybe they would not have received any choice even if they had lived, as it was perhaps only Eärendil and Elwing and their children with whom the choice was concerned, not the other Half-elves, if any such had lived.

If we then look at _Elladan_ and _Elrohir_:

Letter #211:


> Both [_Elladan_ and _Elrohir_] signify _elf_+ _man_. _Elrohir_ might be translated 'Elf-knight'; _rohir_ being a later form of _rochir_ 'horse-lord' from _roch_ '_horse_'+_hir_ 'master': Prim. Elvish _rokkō_ and _khēr_ or _kherū_: High-elven _rocco_, _hēr_ (_hěru_). _Elladan_ might be translated 'Elf-Númenórean'. _Adan_ (pl. _Edain_) was the Sindarin form of the name given to the 'fathers of men', the members of the Three Houses of Elf-friends, whose survivors afterwards became the Númenóreans, or _Dúnedain_.


But here, both names are wholly Elvish; none of them contain a Bëorian or Mannish ending. Does this mean that both chose immortality?

If we look at the actual meanings of the names, the quote from Letter #211 says that both signify _elf_+ _man_; does this mean that both of the brothers chose mortality?

Further on the quote says that _Elrohir_ might be translated 'Elf-knight' and _Elladan_ 'Elf-Númenórean'; does this mean that Elladan chose mortality? And is ‘knight’ a ‘Man-word’ or an ‘Elf-word’?

Note that this information is taken from Letter #211 which was written in 1958; the information about Eluréd, Elurín, Elros and Elrond is taken from ‘The Problem of _ros_, written in 1968 or later. In Letter #211 JRRT still described the ending _–ros_ as Eldarin:


> _*rossē_ meant 'dew, spray (of fall or fountain)'


Thus he changed _-ros_ from being Sindarin to Bëorian in ‘The Problem of _ros_, and also made _-wing_ and _-réd_ Bëorian, but unfortunately the essay was abandoned; JRRT was forced to accept that _-ros_ is Sindarin and wrote ‘most of this fails’; but if he had somehow found a way for it to work and completed the essay, maybe he would have made _-rohir_ (_adan_ seems the less likely alternative) Bëorian, and thus completed the system of naming of all the three brethren Eluréd and Elurín, Elros and Elrond, and Elrohir and Elladan?

*Fate: MORTALITY for Elrohir, IMMORTALITY for Elladan* 


*3) The fate of Eluréd and Elurín = the fate of Elladan and Elrohir or the fate of Elros and Elrond = the fate of Elladan and Elrohir*

Compare Elwing, Eluréd and Elurín to Arwen, Elladan and Elrohir; one sister and two brothers. It is a fact that Arwen chose mortality, but whether Elwing did or not might not matter that much, as she was still in any case very much sundered from her kin. What is more relevant is the fate of Eluréd and Elurín:

‘The Problem of _ros_’:


> Eluréd and Elurín, before they came to manhood, were both slain by the sons of Fëanor


Thus they died at an early stage. It is tempting to think that also Elladan and Elrohir died: because they chose mortality.

But if you compare Elros and Elrond to Elladan and Elrohir instead, though Elros and Elrond had no sister, it looks like either Elladan or Elhorir chose mortality and the other immortality.

*Fate: MORTALITY for both, or MORTALITY for one and IMMORTALITY for the other.* 


*4) No-one dwelt in Rivendell in Fourth Age 120*

‘The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen’:


> the hour is indeed hard, yet it was made even in that day when we [Aragorn and Arwen] met under the white birches in the garden of Elrond *where none now walk*


I suppose that this is to be taken to mean that no-one lived in Rivendell in Fourth Age 120 anymore. This means that Celeborn had passed over the Sea, and taken the sons of Elrond with him – or they had already died before. When Arwen comes to Lórien after the death of Elessar both Galadriel and Celeborn are gone – but maybe this line means that Celeborn also had passed over the Sea and not just gone to dwell in Imladris:


> Galadriel had passed away and Celeborn also was gone, and the land was silent.


One must remember that the children of Elrond, once they remained behind in Middle-earth when their father left, might have started to age in the same way as the Númenóreans (and thus Aragorn) did:

‘The Line of Elros – Kings of Númenor’, note 1:


> Thus (as the Eldar) they [the Númenóreans] grew at much the same rate as other Men, but when they had achieved "full-growth" they then aged, or "wore out," very much more slowly. The first approach of "world-weariness" was indeed for them a sign that their period of vigour was nearing its end.


Thus the children of Elrond, even though their father left, might have just continued to live without losing their vigour, and maybe this created a chance for them to still pass over the Sea and avoid mortality, if they just left before the first approach of “world-weariness”. But it would be a bit strange if they became Númenóreans physically after their father left, because they had never gone to Númenor and thus not received the gift of long life-span. But then again, JRRT seems to have changed the reason that the Númenóreans had a long life-span:


> It is further expounded that the increase in the Númenórean span was brought about *by assimilation of their mode of life to that of the Eldar*


There is also another line in ‘The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen’ that needs consideration:


> As Queen of *Elves* and Men she [Arwen] dwelt with Aragorn for six-score years in great glory and bliss


Why was Arwen a Queen of Elves? Were these the Elves of Greenwood that Legolas brought to Ithilien, which was a part of Gondor? Or was she a Queen of all Elves remaining in the North-West of Middle-earth (except perhaps those of Greenwood), which would mean that the sons of Elrond had passed over the Sea, because if they had not, then the elder of them should have the right to inherit the Elven kingdoms before Arwen, as the brothers were older than her.

*Fate: IMMORTALITY for both, or MORTALITY for both*


----------



## Ardamir the Blessed (Jun 13, 2004)

*5) The sons of Elrond played an active role in the War of the Ring.* 

‘The Passing of the Grey Company’:


> That is all of our kindred that could be gathered in haste; but the brethren Elladan and Elrohir have ridden with us, *desiring to go to the war*.


The fact that none of the inhabitants of Rivendell but Elladan and Elrohir went to the actual war could be taken to mean that only these two thought that it was their duty to partake. The war was mostly for Men to fight, and therefore, the sons of Elrond might have already chosen a mortal fate, though they did not become physically mortal yet, and thus they knew that they were going to live in Middle-earth for the rest of their lives, and so they felt that it was their duty to actively try to save it. Maybe you can compare their participation in the War of the Ring to the doom that was appointed to Arwen (though she did not become physically mortal yet) when she first saw Aragorn after a long time, before they plighted their troth upon Cerin Amroth:

‘The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen’:


> And thus it was that Arwen first beheld him again after their long parting; and as he came walking towards her under the trees of Caras Galadhon laden with flowers of gold, *her choice was made and her doom appointed*.


Something that speaks against this theory is the fact that Elrond was after all ready to send people from his household to set out with the Fellowship on the Quest:



> 'There remain two more to be found,' said Elrond. "These I will consider. *Of my household I may find some that it seems good to me to send.*'


But the two last places seem very suitable for Elladan and Elrohir, and maybe Elrond was indeed thinking about them, and indeed at one stage of writing (see TI, ‘The Ring Goes South’), Erestor, being a *Half-elf* at that point, was to go in Pippin’s or Merry’s stead and represent the Half-elves (Legolas was to represent the Elves). The sons of Elrond had not yet emerged.

Though at an even earlier stage of writing JRRT did have Glorfindel, an extremely powerful High Elf-lord as one of the members of the Fellowship:

RS, ‘In the House of Elrond’:


> Who shall go with him? Gandalf. Trotter. Sam. Odo. Folco. Merry. Glorfindel and Frar [written beneath: Burin] son of Balin.





> That is five. And Glorfindel, if he will come and lend us the wisdom of the Elves: we shall need it. That is six.'


Then at one point he dismisses Glorfindel quite resolutely:


> Alter this. Hobbits only, including Trotter. Gandalf as [?guide] in early stages. Gandalf says he will go all way? *No Glorfindel.*


But here it seems that he wanted only Hobbits to go plus Gandalf. Glorfindel did not return to the composition of the Nine Walkers after this, though, and it may be that JRRT intentionally left any Elf of Rivendell out of the Fellowship and kept Legolas in.

*Fate: MORTALITY for both* 


*6) The sons of Elrond spent much time with Men.* This is related to theory #5.

The sons of Elrond seem to be very much associated with Men: Dúnedain, mostly the Rangers of the North (their chieftains especially) but also the knights of Dol Amroth. This might be a sign of them being received into the company of Men, and thus they chose mortality. The first explicit mention of them being active is:

Appendix A:


> In 2509 Celebrían wife of Elrond was journeying to Lórien when she was waylaid in the Redhorn Pass, and her escort being scattered by the sudden assault of the Orcs, she was seized and carried off. She was pursued and rescued *by Elladan and Elrohir*


But here, the Rangers are not mentioned, but it may be that the brothers received help from them, because from this time henceforth, when the brethren were afield, there always seems to be explcit mention of the Rangers being with them, and in ‘Many Meetings’ the Rangers are mentioned in relation to Celebrían being taken captive:



> But her [Arwen’s] brothers, Elladan and Elrohir, were out upon errantry: for they rode often far afield *with the Rangers of the North*, forgetting never their mother's torment in the dens of the orcs.


But the sons of Elrond were most likely part of the force under Glorfindel that was sent out of Rivendell at the end of the Battle of Fornost in 1975:

Appendix A:


> At the same time [as the cavalry of Gondor overtook Witch-king] a force under Glorfindel the Elf-lord came up out of Rivendell.


This is actually the only time in the Third Age that a force of Rivendell was used in combat.

More quotes:

Appendix A:


> And later in the days of Arassuil [2745], Orcs, multiplying again in the Misty Mountains, begin to ravage the lands, and *the Dúnedain and the sons of Elrond* fought with them.





> But Aragorn was only two years old when Arathorn went riding against the Orcs *with the sons of Elrond*





> But when Estel was only twenty years of age, it chanced that he returned to Rivendell after great deeds *in the company of the sons of Elrond*
> 
> 
> > ‘The Houses of Healing’: And he [Aragorn] commanded that his banner should be furled; and he did off the Star of the North Kingdom and *gave it to the keeping of the sons of Elrond*.
> ...


----------



## Link 2 (Jun 18, 2004)

Replaying to someone's earlier post:

The sons of Elrond did not "give up their spots to Bilbo and Sam".


Bilbo and Sam were allowed into Aman because they were ring-bearers, along with Frodo.


----------



## HLGStrider (Jun 21, 2004)

Not necessarily, Link. Frodo's place, for instance, is secured by Arwen as much as by the Ring. It is her gift that helps him gain entrance.




> This line says that the lines of Fingolfin and Finarfin were continued in Arwen – it does not mention Elladan and Elrohir. This means that Elladan and Elrohir never had any children – which means that they probably chose mortality and died childless, as they quite surely would have had children had they chosen immortality.


I'd like to point out, this is not necessarily so. Not all who had children gain them a mention. Merry, for instance. I always assumed he had children. They are not in the family trees, but he married, and there is no reason to believe his line ended. 

Also, if no history of them is known, it is possible that they did and the children just aren't mentioned. . .possibly because the children were born within the undying lands and out of mortal knowledge.

I'm undecided. There's a lot to be said on both sides, but I have a hard time believing that his sons would all take a choice that would deprive their father of any of his children in the Eldar Lands. Arwen's main hesitation upon taking her course is "she loved her father dearly." I would not assume the boys held any less love. Without the tie of love to a woman to hold them, wouldn't the tie of love to a sire be enough? 

I also think they loved their mother dearly and would owe her some devotion. After all, they spent time revenging her hurts. I think they would like to see her healed again.


----------



## Hobbit-GalRosie (Jun 24, 2004)

I always thought personally that it was more likely they passed over the sea after a time, but it's possible I might have thought that because of some mistaken impression I got from perhaps a quote saying that there were only three _marriages_ between Elves and Men and remembering it as being that only three people of Elven blood chose mortality. I guess that would have been Lúthien, Elros, and Arwen to my self-deceived mind. Of course we'll never know the truth with any certainty, but I now have a lot more food for thought; I've rarely seen so much in-depth information on one subject posted in one place, including all the different implications it could have, and that makes things a lot easier. Muchas gracias Ardamir! (That means thag you very buch, I think)


----------



## King Aragorn (Jun 24, 2004)

*Re: Elladan and Elrohir*

Yes, muchas gracias does mean thank you very much.

To be honest, I've actually never thought about what happened to Elladan and Elrohir. I knew that they were sons of Elrond, but I never thought about their fate, and what they chose. I'm enjoying reading the insights of others, while I ponder this question.


----------



## Ardamir the Blessed (Jul 3, 2004)

*Re: Elladan and Elrohir*

*HLGStrider* posted:


> Also, if no history of them [Elladan and Elrohir] is known, it is possible that they did and the children just aren't mentioned. . .possibly because the children were born within the undying lands and out of mortal knowledge.


I believe that 'The Shibboleth of Fëanor' is "commentary" by Tolkien, in which he explains and adds to his own stories; almost like _Letters_. It was not written story-internally. The first line in the essay reveals this:


> The history of the Eldar *is now fixed* and the adoption of Sindarin by the Exiled Ñoldor *cannot be altered*.


Tolkien is talking about his own literary creation here. So no mortal in Middle-earth wrote this just because he/she only knew that Arwen had children since she stayed in Middle-earth but not Elladan and Elrohir. So why does the line not mention Elladan and Elrohir? Why does it not say for example:


> When in later days he [Elrond] wedded Celebrían, daughter of Galadriel and Celeborn, the two lines of descent from Finwë, from Fingolfin and Finarfin, were united and continued in *their children*.


But Tolkien perhaps wrote the line from a Middle-earth perspective after all, or he did not care if the sons had children or not; maybe the fact that the line continued in Arwen was the important thing for him.


*HLGStrider* posted:


> After all, they [Elladan and Elrohir] spent time revenging her [Celebrían's] hurts. I think they would like to see her healed again.


 This is a good point.


Concerning theory #2: _Arwen_ is a wholly Elvish name, so that spoils the theory, because following the lines of the theory _-wen_ should probably have been Bëorian. Unless Tolkien somehow could have made it so, like he did with _-wing_ in _Elwing_.


----------



## Ardamir the Blessed (Jul 4, 2004)

*Re: Elladan and Elrohir*

Apart from the fact that _wing_ and perhaps also _ros_ were Bëorian, I have only found this about the language:

'The Problem of _ros_':


> The Adûnaic of Númenor was mainly derived from that [the language] of the most powerful and numerous people of 'the House of Hador'. This was related to the speech of Bëor's people who first entered Beleriand (probably about as nearly as Ñoldorin Quenya to Telerin of Valinor): communication between the two peoples was possible but imperfect, mainly because of phonetic changes in the Bëorian dialect.





> The folk of Bëor continued to speak their own tongue among themselves with fair purity, though many Sindarin words were borrowed and adapted by them. [note 5: Not necessarily confined to names of things that had not before [been] known. In the nomenclature of later generations assimilation to the Eldarin modes, and the use of some elements frequent in Eldarin names, can be observed.]


----------



## Snaga (Aug 8, 2004)

*Re: Elladan and Elrohir*

Ardamir, I congratulate you on your efforts. To have accumulated seven theories is tremendous. However, some look stronger than others. The final one holds no water at all for example, since both men and elves can choose to have children or not to have children. So even if we are sure both are childless, we can infer nothing from it.

I'm also skeptical that we can infer mortality or immortality from names. Names may often be prophetic, but by the same token some are not. There are many cases of names being used by both elves and men, and so it seems a weak basis from which to argue from. Of course, it could be seen as indicative and a reason to _prefer_ one idea over another.

My own instinct on this has always been that they left Middle Earth at the same time as Celeborn. Opting for mortality is rare. It has been done only for love or for the foundation of Numenor. It seems to me unlikely that they would choose mortality for no high purpose, having lived as immortals for so long.


----------



## Ronaldinho (Aug 31, 2004)

*Re: Elladan and Elrohir*



Mina Pitcher said:


> do elladan and elrohir get killed?


Following Elronds departure they remainded in Rivendell where eventually Celeborn of Lorien came to dwell with them. Its possibly that they eventually passed over the sea to the undying lands.


----------



## Ithrynluin (Aug 31, 2004)

*Elladan and Elrohir*

Excellent analysis, Ardamir. And good points Elgee and Snaga. I personally found myself torn from theory to theory, though I was not particularly supportive of #3, nor would I place #7 at the very top of the certainty scale, as the theory itself is full of _un_certainty. Numbers 5 and 6 are those that really swayed me more into the mortality 'court'. All those quotes in 5 and 6 remind us of just how much time the brothers were spending with Men - which was a lot! A person reading all those quotes might easily forget the fact that Elladan and Elrohir were half elves! Doubtless, that is far from being any kind of definitive answer, but it is the one that seems most likely to me.

I'll add a poll to this, since we have pretty much all the evidence conveniently laid out before us, and can make our choice with a fair amount of confidence.


----------



## jimmyboy (Sep 5, 2004)

*Re: Elladan and Elrohir*

Hey all...

It's my opinion that the sons of Elrond chose mortality. I cannot remember why at this moment, but I remember that at one point I had a good reason for believing so. One thing that inclines me in this direction is that they seemed to have a special affinity for the noble Men, the Dunedain, and in particular their cousins, the children of Elros. They spent so much time with them over the centuries that I think they may have chosen, in the end, to remain with them and be counted among them. 

This scenario appeals to my sense of friendship and loyalty, so I would be happier to think that Elladan and Elrohir chose to remain and be counted among Men.  (Maybe that was why I was inclined to believe this...  )


----------



## Alcuin (Apr 4, 2005)

*Re: Elladan and Elrohir*

Lovely old thread. It deserves to be released from the grip of Mandos.

In Letter 144 (dated 25 April 1954 to Naomi Mitchison), Tolkien writes,


> Hobbit-children were delightful, but I am afraid that the only glimpses of them in this book are found at the beginning of vol. I. An epilogue giving a further glimpse (thought if a rather exceptional family) has been so universally condemned that I shall not inter it. One must stop somewhere.


That epilogue may be found in Sauron Defeated, and is entitled, simply enough, “The Epilogue”. Anyone interested in Tolkien’s intended ending for the Lord of the Rings would do well to read it: it is even more poignant than the published version, which lacks this little glimpse into the life of Samwise Gamgee and his family, 18 years after the destruction of the Ring and 15 years following the departure of Frodo with Elrond &c. In the second (more finished) version of the chapter, Sam tells his daughter Elanor that when Aragorn and Arwen come to visit Arnor, a visit which Sam and his family have been commanded to attend, he expects to see “Elladan and Elrohir, who still live in Rivendell”. 

In Letter 153 (Sept 1954, to a Mr. Peter Hastings), Tolkien touches upon the subject:


> Elrond chose to be among the Elves. His children … have to make their choices. … The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while.


Ardamir’s scholarship on this eclipses mine: he has clearly thought about this longer and more carefully than I, despite my (it seemed to me) long consideration of the subject before I saw this thread. I will venture only this as a personal opinion and humbly offered, for I have nothing to back it up except my own preferences and inclinations. Literary balance and textual analysis might argue that one remained while the other departed for the Uttermost West; but I hope that both Elladan and Elrohir remained in Middle-earth and married into the Northern Dúnedain, strengthening the northern community of the Númenóreans, which was slowly dwindling toward extinction. I hope that their attachment to the Númenóreans of Arnor, their devotion to one another, and their love of their sister Arwen would incline them to stay behind and help renew the remaining Dúnedain.


----------



## Ingwë (Apr 4, 2005)

*Re: Elladan and Elrohir*



> Elrond chose to be among the Elves. His children … have to make their choices. … The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and *remain for a while*.


 
Very interesting! I think both choose immortality. *Remain for a while...* Maybe they depatred over the sea after a while? They stay in Rivendell for a long - they keep the refuge of their father with other elves who still stay in the Middle earth. Celeborn also stayed in Middle earth after the departure of his wife - Galadriel but maybe he set sail over the sea in after years. Hm, I would say the brothers of Arwen Evenstar were waiting for her death.  After her death they set sail over the sea. 
I agree: they helped the Dúnedain while they were living in the Middle earth. But they loved their mother and I would say they went to Valinor to see the beauty again.


----------



## Gil-Galad (Apr 4, 2005)

*Re: Elladan and Elrohir*

It took me some time to read all those different theories-great efforts Ardamir.

My opinion is probably closest to Snaga's one.Yes we do have some examples for prophetic names,but as a whole their amoung is not significant.

I doubt about chosing mortality,they were not bound to Middle-earth with anything more special.There was no extraodinary reason for chosing mortal life like Elros or Arwen for example.Ok,they spent lots of time with mortals,but we have pretty much examples for elves doing this in the past.

What is more,if that was a fact,it would not have been an insignificant one,but one to be mentioned by Tolkien.After all we are talking about half-elven chosing mortal life....


----------



## Erestor Arcamen (Apr 9, 2005)

*Re: Elladan and Elrohir*

*



Not necessarily, Link. Frodo's place, for instance, is secured by Arwen as much as by the Ring. It is her gift that helps him gain entrance.

Click to expand...

 **So could this maybe mean that maybe Frodo had gained Arwen's immortal life and lived in Valinor forever as well? Maybe the same happened to Sam and Bilbo for Elrond's son's immortality...*


----------



## Alcuin (Apr 9, 2005)

*Re: Elladan and Elrohir*



Erestor Arcamen said:


> *So could this maybe mean that maybe Frodo had gained Arwen's immortal life and lived in Valinor forever as well? Maybe the same happened to Sam and Bilbo for Elrond's son's immortality...*


Tolkien says explicitly at one point that none of the three hobbits that passed into the West lived to immortality. They died after a sojourn in the West after the manner of their kind.


----------



## Alatar (Apr 10, 2005)

*Re: Elladan and Elrohir*

I think that after the death of Arwen the brothers (who were mantiaaining a refugue for all the silvan elves who want to go to aman ) go to aman with there grandad(celeborn) to see there Family.


----------



## HLGStrider (Apr 11, 2005)

*Re: Elladan and Elrohir*

I'm a bit surprised I'm the only one who picked the "fair" option and did "fifty-fifty" one immortal, one mortal. 


I think it is probably because they always work as a pair and people can't see them apart, though I still like it because it brings to mind Elrond and Elros, which I think needs to be a consideration.


----------



## Alcuin (Apr 11, 2005)

*Re: Elladan and Elrohir*



HLGStrider said:


> I'm a bit surprised I'm the only one who picked the "fair" option and did "fifty-fifty" one immortal, one mortal.


The poll is still young! Your position will yet garner more votes.


----------



## Noldor_returned (Apr 19, 2006)

They both survive the War of the Ring, that I'm sure of. I'm also fairly certain that they passed over the sea and chose to remain elves. If I find a quote I'll put it in.


----------



## Valandil (Apr 19, 2006)

*Re: Elladan and Elrohir*



HLGStrider said:


> I'm a bit surprised I'm the only one who picked the "fair" option and did "fifty-fifty" one immortal, one mortal.
> 
> 
> I think it is probably because they always work as a pair and people can't see them apart, though I still like it because it brings to mind Elrond and Elros, which I think needs to be a consideration.



I decided to throw in my lot with you! That was a good point about Elrond and Elros. Also - twins are so often associated together, that at some point, I think each tries very hard to be different from the other. And really, these two had both worked hard for - and identified greatly with, the Men of Middle Earth (so they might have both stayed).

I'm stalled in a bit of fanfic now, which features only ONE of these two twins. I thought it'd be fun to see them separately.

Perhaps a larger question though, is... did Celeborn stay behind or go? I expect there's a poll on that hereabouts as well.


----------



## Noldor_returned (Apr 19, 2006)

Celeborn I'm 99% sure left. With all his people going, Galadriel gone I don't know how he could have stayed. It's not like there were many other elves staying either.


----------



## Valandil (Apr 19, 2006)

Noldor_returned said:


> Celeborn I'm 99% sure left. With all his people going, Galadriel gone I don't know how he could have stayed. It's not like there were many other elves staying either.



Then why wouldn't he have left WITH Galadriel? Trouble in Paradise??  

Actually - maybe his lingering is a hint that at least one of the twins had decided to stay. Perhaps Celeborn (and the other twin, if only one desired to stay), wished to spend a century or two with his grandson(s?) before saying his last farewell - while Galadriel felt a greater desire to return, her own power diminished after the destruction of the One Ring...???


----------



## Noldor_returned (Apr 19, 2006)

No. Celeborn couldn't have gone with Galadriel on the same ship because that was for Ring-bearers only. Celeborn, at no time, wore a Ring of Power. However, there are more boats for him to on, so surely he would have left to be with his wife who he had loved since the First age. After all, Galadriel stayed in Doriath so she could be with Celeborn, and it was thier love that caused Lothlorien to survive.


----------



## Valandil (Apr 20, 2006)

Noldor_returned said:


> No. Celeborn couldn't have gone with Galadriel on the same ship because that was for Ring-bearers only...



I think you're misinterpreting that.


----------



## Noldor_returned (Apr 20, 2006)

Misinterpreting what? Only ring-bearers went on the ship. Celeborn wasn't a ring-bearer. What is there to misinterpret?


----------



## Valandil (Apr 20, 2006)

Noldor_returned said:


> Misinterpreting what? Only ring-bearers went on the ship. Celeborn wasn't a ring-bearer. What is there to misinterpret?



I don't believe we're told anywhere that only ring-bearers went on (or could go on) that ship. If so, do you have a quotation?, because I'm unaware of it. In the chapter, "The Grey Havens", the Hobbits - Frodo and Sam - met a company of Elves who were traveling to the Havens, Gildor (a non-bearer) is mentioned by name. Later, Gandalf, Sam and Frodo are standing there at the Havens "and the Elves were going aboard" - nothing indicating that this means only Galadriel and Elrond - I highly doubt it.

Besides, the appendices say that Celeborn went to Rivendell after Elrond left it - and stayed for some time with the twins. We don't know from there his ultimate fate. He certainly doesn't seem to have waited to catch "the next ship" or anything.

The part about being a "Ring-bearer" in that section, I believe, is indicating to Sam that he would later be able to sail West because he was one himself - not indicating that only ring-bearers could take that particular ship.


----------



## Arvedui (Apr 20, 2006)

I just want to throw in my two cents on this subject, as well:

I believe that both Elladan, Elrohir and also Celeborn eventually left for the Undying Lands. The reason for this is the words "for a while" that Tolkien used. If there is one thing I have learned from reading some Tolkien over the years, is that phrases such as these are used intentionally.

A possible reason for staying behind, is Arwen. After all, she is the sister of Elladan and Elrohir, and the granddaughter of Celeborn. And don't forget that she also gave birth to Eldarion, the great-grandson of Celeborn. I believe that that also may have some impact on Celeborn's decision to stay.
But it could be that the reason for staying was simple: to enjoy the results of the long labour against evil; to experience Middle-earth in peacetime.


> No. Celeborn couldn't have gone with Galadriel on the same ship because that was for Ring-bearers only.


 I think that you are putting too much into the story of who went on that ship.


----------



## Erestor Arcamen (Apr 20, 2006)

Could it be that when Legolas eventually left for the undying lands that Celeborn and the brothers also went? i mean maybe it would be like symbolic of Celeborn finally gaining respect for Gimli, since Gimli showed vigour(sp?) against Sauron and all. Remember when they met in Lothlorien, they didnt get along too well. And anyways wasnt it written somewhere that Legolas was like the last elf to leave? i could be wrong.


----------



## HLGStrider (Apr 20, 2006)

I think it might've been said somewhere that he was the last member of the fellowship to depart from Middle Earth, but I don't remember him being the last elf. 

I don't think Celeborn's disapproval of Gimli was important enough (or that Celeborn was important enough) for this to be the case though.


----------



## Noldor_returned (Apr 20, 2006)

Well, as to the ship, it was possibly some of the high-elves who left, such as Glorfindel and Galadriel, also the ring-bearers. That would make sense, right? Because Celeborn, remember, had never left Middle-Earth. So it's possible he didn't want to leave his beloved home yet, simply because he did wish to taste the serentiy that existed.

Elrond feared for Arwen, correct? So he might have even asked his sons to remain and watch over her, then when she died to come across the sea and tell him what had happened. We know she died not long after Aragorn, and that after King Elessar was dead Legolas and Gimli left for Valinor. I doubt that they could have sailed a ship across the perilous seas by themselves, so I imagine the three in question (Elladan, Elrohir and Celeborn) would have left around the same time, along with several other elves that still remained and wished to go to Aman.


----------



## Ithrynluin (Apr 22, 2006)

Noldor_returned said:


> They both survive the War of the Ring, that I'm sure of. I'm also fairly certain that they passed over the sea and chose to remain elves. If I find a quote I'll put it in.





> _TLOTR - Appendix B_
> But after the passing of Galadriel in a few years Celeborn grew weary of his realm and went to Imladris to dwell with the sons of Elrond.



Yes, they survived. However, there is no quote that explicitly proves they stayed in or left Middle-earth.

About Celeborn's fate: There's nothing to point us either way, but I think it is safer to assume that he left Middle-earth eventually. Would he have waited and faded? I don't think that's likely to have happened. Marriage was a natural course of life for elves, and a couple could not be separated save by death. 

I believe the reason for Celeborn's tarrying is that he wanted to enjoy Middle-earth for a while longer. Valinor was Galadriel's home, and Middle-earth Celeborn's, at least according to one version of his tale - the one I personally prefer, where Galadriel 'goes native' when choosing a husband, rather than wedding Celeborn the prince of Alqualondë. Plus, their daughter Celebrian was in Aman as well.

The only objection to the above could be Celeborn's curious statement in _TLOTR; Many Partings_, where he is speaking to Aragorn: _‘Kinsman, farewell! May your doom be other than mine, and your treasure remain with you to the end!’_.

That seems to imply that Galadriel and Celeborn would part for ever, and that he wishes Aragorn to remain with his treasure (Arwen) forever. Although it could perhaps be claimed that Celeborn was simply being a bit emphatic and they would merely be parted for some time (no doubt short in the eyes of the elves), though even such short separation would be difficult to bear.


----------



## HLGStrider (Apr 22, 2006)

You could also read the quote to mean Celeborn's treasure is his granddaughter, whom Aragorn is depriving him of. It is less poetic than spousal love, but the love for a grandchild is pretty potent and I don't think calling her a treasure and regretting her loss would be at all out of character for the pair, though we really never get a glimpse of the relationship between Arwen and her grandparents.


----------



## Arvedui (Apr 26, 2006)

Or it could be that Celeborn's treasure was _Celebrían_.

And it could be that the last part of the sentence had no connection to the first part: _May your doom be other than mine. And may your treasure remain with you to the end!_


----------



## Noldor_returned (Apr 26, 2006)

HLGStrider said:


> though we really never get a glimpse of the relationship between Arwen and her grandparents.


 
Well we know Arwen lived in Lothlorien for a while, as Aragorn first sees her here, so that probably implies there relationship was strong, for her to stay away from Elrond and her brothers for so long.


----------



## HLGStrider (Apr 26, 2006)

Arvedui said:


> And it could be that the last part of the sentence had no connection to the first part: _May your doom be other than mine. And may your treasure remain with you to the end!_


 
This interpretation though leaves us with the question of, "Exactly what doom was Celeborn wishing Aragorn to avoid?"

Another way to look at this is that Celeborn saw his treasure(s), his realm and power and kingdom and the Middle Earth he loved, taken from him and given to the realm of men (Aragorn) and Celeborn is wishing that unlike him, Aragorn will keep his glory unto the end of his life, which he did. 

There are actually a ton of ways to interpret this. I should set up a poll!

Mu ha ha ha


----------



## Valandil (Apr 26, 2006)

Noldor_returned said:


> Well we know Arwen lived in Lothlorien for a while, as Aragorn first sees her here, so that probably implies there relationship was strong, for her to stay away from Elrond and her brothers for so long.



Actually - Aragorn saw her first in Rivendell. But - up to that time, she HAD been away in Lothlorien. And then he saw her for the second time - I think 29 years later - at Lothlorien.

So she seems to have been there a lot. They first met at Rivendell though.


----------



## Noldor_returned (Apr 26, 2006)

Whatever. We know she spent a lot of time in Lorien though, so you'd expect Celeborn, Arwen and Galadriel to be close. They also came to her wedding, which sort of says that they gave up their kingdom for a few weeks for her.


----------



## Erestor Arcamen (Apr 27, 2006)

They didnt just come for the wedding, but for the crowning of the new king of Gondor as well. I mean its like they waited like what a thousand years for that?


----------



## HLGStrider (Apr 27, 2006)

Besides, weddings mean free food. Who wouldn't leave an Elven Kingdom for that?


----------



## Annaheru (Apr 27, 2006)

HLGStrider said:


> Besides, weddings mean free food. Who wouldn't leave an Elven Kingdom for that?


 
and sight-seeing. Apparently Gondor had resort beaches, supersized niagra falls, a giant black ball, and a really big garden. . . not to mention a museum of kings


----------



## elrilgalia (May 21, 2006)

The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen’: Quote:
the hour is indeed hard, yet it was made even in that day when we [Aragorn and Arwen] met under the white birches in the garden of Elrond *where none now walk* 

I like this quote, and think that if Elrohir and Elladan had remained in ME, then they would have found it difficult to settle anywhere other than their home in Rivendell.

Although, as Alcuir says, it would too have been nice if they had married a Numenorean and blended the races a little more... but again I cant visualise them settling and living in Gondor...

and so I beleive that they must have sailed overseas ....

To Valinor is another question and debate.. as to whether the path to Valinor was by then closed.. and they simply went overseas...


----------



## Noldor_returned (May 23, 2006)

Also, whether they reached Valinor is another consideration that needs to be made. I am not talking about restrictions, but about the sea voyage, which wasn't easy. However, if they survived this, I am sure an exception could have been made to accept the sons of Elrond. After all, Gimli and Tuor were accepted. Why not Elladan and Elrohir?

Just checking up on something, and I found this in Appendix A:


> ...Galadriel had passed away, and Celeborn also was gone...


 
It is talking about Arwen dying in Lorien after Aragorn dies, and if Celeborn had left, then perhaps the sons had gone too. If they hadn't, then at least one (minimum) more ship sailed to Valinor: the ship carrying Legolas and Gimli. This reached Valinor because Gimli was accepted by the Eldar, so as long as Elladan and Elrohir had survived the voyage sometime before 1541 in the Fourth Age, then they had left and made it to Valinor.


----------



## elrilgalia (May 27, 2006)

theres nothing to say that Gimli and Legolas reached Valinor, simply that they sailed overseas.............


----------



## Noldor_returned (May 28, 2006)

I would say these quotes are enough:
In Appendix B, Later Events Concerning The Members etc:


> ...Legolas built a grey ship in Ithilien, and sailed down Anduin and so over Sea; and with him, it is said, went Gimli the Dwarf...


 
So we know that Gimli and Legolas left together.
Then there is this from Appendix A, III Durin's Folk:


> ...that a dwarf should be willing to leave Middle-Earth for any love, or that the Eldar should receive him, or that the Lords of the West should permit it...


 
Therefore, they reached Valinor, for how else would the Eldar or Valar "receive" them?


----------



## Noldor_returned (Oct 4, 2006)

I think, despite my arguing differently, that they chose mortality. Upon reading RotK, I came across this:


> Presently Eomer came out from the gate, and with him was Aragorn, and Halbarad bearing the great staff close-furled in black, and two tall men, neither young nor old. So much alike were they, the sons of Elrond, that few could tell them apart: dark-haired, grey-eyed, and their faces elven fair, clad alike in bright mail beneath cloaks of silver-grey.


Two tall men and no usual rave about how good elves are and how pretty they are? The description given sounds like one that other elves had after they chose mortality.

If they did choose mortality, that might explain why Elrond was anxious to have Arwen remain immortal with him. If she didn't he wouldn't be able to see any of his children, Celebrian, and any of the offspring produced by his own. That has to hurt, spending the rest of time with Galadriel, Gandalf and all them. I can imagine the conversation:

Gandalf: I am better than you!
Elrond: Stop speaking in riddles.
Galadriel: Blah blah test blah blah Celeborn blah blah Noldo blah blah
Elrond: Curse my children! They abandoned me with these two!


----------

