# Favourite elven kindred



## Ithrynluin

*Favourite elven people*

Which of the three elven peoples do you find the most fascinating, wonderful,..etc?
Could you possibly identify with any of them - in the sense that you share some particular characteristic with one of them?
And,of course,explain your choice (the more thorough the explanation the better).
I guess most people will choose the Noldor because the Sil revolves around their sorrows and magnificent achievements.I could be wrong though.
I cannot choose right now,I have to think it through - it's a really hard question!


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## ApplCobbler

I chose the Vanyar because they seem to have their **** in order. They aren't going all around Arda following foolish pacts and so forth. They as well aided in the downfall of Morgoth and the end of the second age.


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## Galdor

Hmmm, that is a hard question. Right now it's a tie between the Teleri and the Noldor. I really like Cirdan and Galdor(of course) and some of the other Teleri. But also like Galadriel, Elrond, Glorfindell, Turgon...., who were all Noldor. I'll have to think about it and get to you guys on it later.


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## YayGollum

The Nandor. Because of the way they were described I would think that Radagast might have invisibly hung out with them. Let me find a quote to painstakingly write down for you. "Those were the Nandor; and they became a people apart, unlike their kin, save that they loved water, and dwelt most beside falls and running streams. Greater knowledge they had of living things, tree and herb, bird and beast, than all other elves." I don't know what's wrong with me. I probably just like them because that's the most I know about them.


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## Ithrynluin

After much pondering I have finally decided to vote for the Teleri with the Noldor being a close second. Both my favourite elves have Telerin blood (Cirdan-full,Galadriel-half-Telerin). I love their affiliation with the sea and with Ulmo for whom they have a deep reverence. I also find their love for ship-making and their sea-longing very appealing.
But Yay for all elves!


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## Confusticated

We get to see the Noldor and Teleri in the worst of times and this tells us more about them than we learn of the Vanyar. Most of my favorite elves(be it because they are heroic, or kind, or wise) are all among the Noldor. I can not say for sure that this is my favorite kind though. I see the Noldor as being more like men than the other Elves are, and I find them to be the most interesting to read about. The Teleri were good people, but their history is not as packed full of amazing deeds as is the Noldor. Those are some thoughts on the answer to this questions, and I suppose I would pick the Noldor if I had to choose one. I will add that I do not see the Elves as three kinds, but either 1 or many more than 3. 

I also wonder: how different would things really have been if Feanor were of the Vanyar. Are those people so different that they would not have followed him? If they did follow him, would they last long against Morgoth.

I think the 3 types are more alike than the major events of them were. I think the types of elves seemed different because they had different leaders, but the nature of each elf was much like that of the other kinds. I'm sure this changed though, as the different groups broke off and went their own ways.


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## gate7ole

Vanyar: too "right". They never disobeyed the Valar, they were their favorite kindred. They remind me of the "good students" at school. I would never identify with them. They had no adventurous spirit at all.
Teleri: now, these folk were ok. They had their great love the Sea, they didn't want to leave it even for Valinor (they lived at Alqualonde, outside the Pelori mountains), they had their adventurous. But still, they didn't have the character of a leader.
Noldor: this are my favorite. They made their errors, but that is the point. To learn from them, to become a better elf (or man).They showed their great valour in danger, while the Vanyar were sitting in their safe houses, next to their protectors. They grew up and finally I believe they surpassed the others. That's my opinion in general, maturity comes through difficult situations.


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## Lord Aragorn

I would have to go with the Noldor on this one. They are responsible for almost all of the greatest deeds in Elven lore. If it weren't for them, there wouldn't be a Sil. They are, in my opinion, the most valiant and hardy of the 3 main divisions of Elves. And that's why they get my vote.


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## Gil-Galad

Noldor of course!!!They do the greatest things in ME.All great kings are Noldor-Feanor,Finwe,Fingolfin,Fingon,Turgon,I etc...


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## Elenaelin

Hey now- let's not forget the Teleri- I personally affiliate with them more because they seem to be more independent of the Valar. While the Vanyar are busy hanging on every word, of the Valar, and the Noldor are busy running about and creating havoc, the Teleri are busy trying to live thier own lives and be thier own people. But then again, all Elves are superior


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## LúthienTinúviel

I'd have to go with the Teleri. Lúthien, who is the greatest of the Eldar (and my favourite elf), is half Telerin. Círdan also is a favourite and a Teleri. Galadriel is part Telerin. The Sindar in general are my favourite elven group. Too many favourites coincide for the Teleri not to be my favourite.


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## Galdor

well. I've decided on the Teleri. A lot of my favourite elves are Teleri. Galdor, Cirdan, Galadriel.....


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## Gil-Galad

What did Teleri do when Earendil reached Valinor?Did they go with the Valar?Some will say they didn't join the Valar because of the past,but the war wasn't for Noldor,it was for the Men.Valar had to save the men.Teleri didn't care about anything,they just lived protected from the Valar.They had to take part in The War of Wrath,because of men.


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## Ithrynluin

Gil-Galad,again we disagree.Weird,huh? 

What's with all the Teleri-bashing eh? They are a worthy group of elves : wise,peaceful,...great singers.Yes they didn't *make* anything (like the Silmarils) but still...I love them the most.


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## Gil-Galad

They live in such way cause they're protected and nothing is required from them.Do they suffer?Do they fight with Morgoth?Do they help people?Do they help Valar in The War of Wrath?
What kind of greatness is when you do NOTHING,just living without any care for others.


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## Ithrynluin

Eeeemmmmmm...hello?
What do you mean "they don't suffer" ? What about Thingol's realm? What about the myriad elves who lived in Beleriand and were slain in the wars with Morgoth? MANY MANY elves who lived in Gondolin and Nargothrond and throughout Beleriand were Telerin in origin (don't be confused with the term "Sindar" - that's Teleri too!).
Luthien is half Telerin,and the children of Finarfin also.
Anything else?


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## Gil-Galad

I meant the Teleri who stayed nearest to Valinor.Of cousre those who were in ME suffered,but not as much as Noldors.


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## Ithrynluin

Well the Teleri who lived in Alqualondë suffered the kinslaying and that's enough if you ask me.Should they have gone to ME too? Sorry but they were a bit too wise to do that!


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## Gil-Galad

They should not go in ME with Valar to help Noldors,but MEN.They had to help the Second Born.


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## LúthienTinúviel

The Lindar (division of elves who lived in Alqalondë) had no responsibility to help Men. Why should they? Men were the Valar's responsibility alone. 

And I agree with ithrynluin - The Kinsalying was not enough grief!?

Here's the short and skinny on this particular subject (according to moi, or course) :

Sure, the Noldor suffered, but they brought it on themselves. The Teleri suffered, but much of their suffering was brought on them by others, and they shared no responsibilty in it (can anyone say The Kinsalying?).


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## Gil-Galad

Well,how can be they the greatest kindred when they do nothing.They just live protected from the Valar.The Vanyar weren't obliged too to take part in The War of Wrath ,but they took part in it.While the Teleri just live without carrying about men's suffer.Even some elves from their kindred were in ME,did Teleri help them?No.
To be the greatest you should do many things,not just to live in peace without any care for everyone,but that's just my opinion.


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## Ingwë

They *can *be the greatest kind when they do nothing. What did the Noldor do? The Teleri were slain in Alqalondë by the Noldor. Is it great deed to kill creatures akin to you? I think it is not. Is it a great deed to kill other Noldor? We know that Noldor killed Noldor. Shame! 
The Teleri also killed Elves though they did it to protect themselves, of course. However, the Vanyar haven't killed creatures akin to them. They're fair. They don't have blood on their arms. They're my favourite  .


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## Barliman Butterbur

*Re: Favourite elven people*



Ithrynluin said:


> Which of the three elven peoples do you find the most



That's easy for me: the Wood Elves! They love eating and getting snokkered on wine!

Barley


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## Gabba

I did not really think the subjekt trough before I voted. And I dont remember the differenses between the kindred, but first I voted Noldors since I like science and I seem to remember that they sought knowledge more than the other. But. Then I started reading the thread and "Ithrynluin's" thread of why he choose the Teleri. I now want to take back my vote and vote fore the Teleri if they are like Ithrynluin describes.  I have always "dwellt" near the sea, I'm a former sailor and I'm currently taking my master degree in ship engineering! I have also sworn that I shall always have the sea in sight from my house!


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## Inderjit S

This is an easy question to answer. The Noldor. (By far.)


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## Gil-Galad

WOW...reading this thread almost three years later....

It made me feel like I miss so much the old times here.


And still nothing has changed concerning my opinion that the Noldors are the greatest kindred....
Of course they have their sins,but still they were directly or indirectly responsible for so many great things in ME and Valinor..... .

Ihty,I am still ready to argue with you about this topic.....even three years later


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## Aglarband

Noldor FTW. The Teleri are boooring, that's why Tolkein hardly wrote about them.


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## Erestor Arcamen

Definately the Noldor! They caused most of the deeds in the History of Middle Earth and are the greatest of all the elves! Eru bless them!


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## Gothmog

The Teleri.

They were the first to see the beauty in Middle-earth and the last to leave. Even when persuaded to leave Cuivienen they wanted to remain in M-e and make it their home. The Noldor wanted to have what they thought was a better life elsewhere and when that was not what they expected they returned to M-e and, had it not been for Melkor, would have carved out kingdoms regardless of who was living in M-e.


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## Haldatyaro

The Noldor.

Their acomplishments far outweigh their shortcomings (notwithstanding the Kinslaying, in which not all Noldor took part). The Holy Jewels, the realms in Beleriand, Nargothrond and Gondolin. Fingolfin himself, the only Elda to actually wound Morgoth. Galadriel, while a half-Teleri she is considered to be a Noldo, is probably the most powerful female Elf in the entire saga.

The Vanyar are in total bliss, all the time, so they have little to challenge them, spurring them on to great deeds. The Teleri are waverers and fearful, far to absorbed their pastoral lives.

The Sindar, OTOH, are in my opinion a close second to the Noldor, though like their Telerin cousins, prefer to be left alone. Some like Beleg were great heros in their own right, others were no less important for their part, such as Eol. Celeborn was a noble Sindarin Lord. Then there's great King Thingol himself, though not exactly a Sinda. His descendants were also important Sindar: Luthien and Dior, Elwing.


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## Garwen

The Noldor, for the same reasons as Lord Aragorn had stated
The Silmarillion is mainly about them and their deeds.
And I like Glorfindel who was a Noldor Elf I believe.


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## Barliman Butterbur

*Re: Favourite elven people*



Ithrynluin said:


> Which of the three elven peoples do you find the most fascinating, wonderful,..etc?



The Wood Elves! They have been known to drink themselves into a stupor — my kinda elf! 

Barley


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## Amarie Veanne

The Vanyar for me.
The fiest time I read the Silm the Nolodor were my favourite race, but by now it has changed. I like the Vanyar because I just find my personality in them, I've always thought of them as wise loremasters, and of a more quiet and relaxed nature.


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## Finrod Felagund

i like the Noldor the most because they were the bravest, most skilled and the quickest to act upon things. Also Finrod was a Noldo


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## Ithrynluin

Looking back...the results are pretty damn surprising. I thought the Noldor would have won an overwhelming majority, but instead they are tied with the Teleri. And the Vanyar having as many votes as they do? I thought they would maybe get an odd pity vote for someone but that's it. Interesting how it turned out and glad that it did so!


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## Bucky

Who wouldn't love The Noldor?

Despite all their faults, all the history of Middle Earth revolves around THEM!


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## Eledhwen

I've just got to go for those shipbuilders! "The third and greatest of the three Elf-kindreds of the Great Journey, from whom the Nandor and the Sindar were descended. The Teleri came last to Aman, and dwelt in Alqualondë on the western shores of the Great Sea." (The Encylopedia of Arda).


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## Elora

The Vanyar - to take the straight and high road, at considerable cost, is all too often underestimated.

The Vanyar are little told of, yet to be sundered from their kindred to dwell in isolation so long, yet to aid in lifting the yolk of evil they had no hand in bringing to fruit, speaks loudly of their strength and merits.


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## Mali

gate7ole said:


> Vanyar: too "right". They never disobeyed the Valar, they were their favorite kindred. They remind me of the "good students" at school. I would never identify with them. They had no adventurous spirit at all.


 
I think that the Vanyar are the ones I identify with the most, but I don't necessarily like reading about them the most.


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## Master of maps

im casting my vote for the noldor. Though they often went astray, they were the ones who ended up doing most of the deeds of fame. Nevertheless the vanyar anre pretty cool as well, as they managed to stay in the favour of the valar throughout the whole book, but they also aided in morgoths downfall


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## Master of maps

seems i've brought about a tie between noldor and the teleri.... yay!!!!


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## Elf of cave

The Noldor are the greatest.

The Vanyar are just too perfect and too “Holy” - in other words boring. Ingwe seated at the feet of the Valar - what does that leave to imagine? 

The Teleri are alright but most of them are too passive, like the elves of Doriath hiding behind the Girdle of Melian. 

The Noldor are passionate, fiery, fierce and flawed. The Fëanorians may have done some terrible things, but without the exiled Noldor coming to Middle-earth it would only have been a matter of time before Morgoth would have conquered all of Beleriand and enslaved the Elves and Men, and all of the history that came after would never would have happened.


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## Confusticated

> *Posted by ithrynluin*
> 
> Looking back...the results are pretty damn surprising. I thought the Noldor would have won an overwhelming majority...



Probably because Noldor fanatics like Inderjit and me had been such loud-mouths around here. 



> *By Elf of cave*
> 
> ...it would only have been a matter of time before Morgoth would have conquered all of Beleriand and enslaved the Elves and Men, and all of the history that came after would never would have happened.



Without the rebellion of the Noldor, would those of Aman continued to sit idle long enough for that to happen? Especially since men would make decent potential soldiers against them. 

I wouldn't put it past all of them except Ulmo. An unpleasant thought.


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## Ithrynluin

Nóm said:


> I wouldn't put it past all of them except Ulmo. An unpleasant thought.



I'm not sure I follow. What is the unpleasant thought? 

That the Valar would have intervened in Middle-earth matters earlier, had the Noldor never departed there?


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## Curufin

Elf of cave said:


> The Noldor are the greatest.



Hear, hear!



> The Vanyar are just too perfect and too “Holy” - in other words boring. Ingwe seated at the feet of the Valar - what does that leave to imagine?


Well, they did make decent wives for some of the Ñoldor, I suppose. 



> The Teleri are alright but most of them are too passive, like the elves of Doriath hiding behind the Girdle of Melian.


Or like the Teleri in Aman who never seem to want to do much except sing. And push the Ñoldor off of their ships. Of course, they make good wives for the Ñoldor too. 



> The Noldor are passionate, fiery, fierce and flawed.


Hear, hear! Add interesting to the list. 



> The Fëanorians may have done some terrible things


  I think I take offense at this. 

Especially since it's probably pointed at me and Celegorm. 



> but without the exiled Noldor coming to Middle-earth it would only have been a matter of time before Morgoth would have conquered all of Beleriand and enslaved the Elves and Men, and all of the history that came after would never would have happened.





> _*Dear-bought shall these songs be accounted, and yet shall be well-bought. For the price could be no other. Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil yet be good to have been...*_





Nóm said:


> Probably because Noldor fanatics like Inderjit and me had been such loud-mouths around here.



Ñoldor fanatics! Can I join? Can I join!? I've even been known to defend the Kinslaying on occasion...(that was an interesting debate...)




> Without the rebellion of the Noldor, would those of Aman continued to sit idle long enough for that to happen? Especially since men would make decent potential soldiers against them.


I think they would have waited longer. They seemed pretty willing to ignore Melkor to me.


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## Confusticated

Ithrynluin said:


> That the Valar would have intervened in Middle-earth matters earlier, had the Noldor never departed there?



No, I was unclear again!

That the Valar would have sat idle long enough for Morgoth to enslave Middle-earth.

Curufin, you defended the kinslaying? I think you've gone farther than anyone I've ever seen. I guess if that isn't a fanatic then no one is! Have you ever defended Feanor's cold reaction to the news that his son was on the burning ship? 

I bet you've defended Curufin too...  I foresee some lively discussions.


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## YayGollum

Oh, come on. I've defended the event called the Kinslaying before. I shall look it up. *grumbles* I defend all kinds of crazy stuff! 

Here it is: Slaying of some particular elves is evil? Not really. They were stupid for standing in the way of an especially as well as achingly famously fiery tempered personality. He showed a Herculean amount of restraint in the first place for asking them for their ships instead of just taking them. Do you people think that he was just a whiny as well as spoiled little boy? Well, even if you do, he wasn't. He had the legendary love for a dad that had to be avenged! Lots of creepily righteous fury driving him and some random elf says ---> "Nah. We enjoy uselessly piddling about our tiny island. Waste lots of time making your own boats, why don't you?" That was pretty stupid of him. Poor Feanor snapped. 

Only a part of a bunch of fun that I was having in some other thread around here.


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## Curufin

Nóm said:


> .Curufin, you defended the kinslaying? I think you've gone farther than anyone I've ever seen. I guess if that isn't a fanatic then no one is!



Yep.  It was quite enjoyable, too.  I pretty much did it because I got tired of the 'Ñoldor are evil, Teleri are completely innocent in every way' mindset, so I decided to show that the Teleri _aren't_ completely innocent. They're the ones who started pushing, after all.



> Have you ever defended Feanor's cold reaction to the news that his son was on the burning ship?



What was the little baby doing on the ship, anyway?  I have, but not quite in that way. I completely believe that Fëanor felt absolutely horrible about this, but at this point was completely incapable of admitting that he was capable of making mistakes. So you get the reaction in the _Shibboleth_ that makes him seem really cold, when actually he was quite grieved.



> I bet you've defended Curufin too...  I foresee some lively discussions.



Why, of course I have.  



YayGollum said:


> Oh, come on. I've defended the event called the Kinslaying before. I shall look it up. *grumbles* I defend all kinds of crazy stuff!
> 
> Here it is: Slaying of some particular elves is evil? Not really. They were stupid for standing in the way of an especially as well as achingly famously fiery tempered personality. He showed a Herculean amount of restraint in the first place for asking them for their ships instead of just taking them. Do you people think that he was just a whiny as well as spoiled little boy? Well, even if you do, he wasn't. He had the legendary love for a dad that had to be avenged! Lots of creepily righteous fury driving him and some random elf says ---> "Nah. We enjoy uselessly piddling about our tiny island. Waste lots of time making your own boats, why don't you?" That was pretty stupid of him. Poor Feanor snapped.



Love it!


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## Elf of cave

> Without the rebellion of the Noldor, would those of Aman continued to sit idle long enough for that to happen? Especially since men would make decent potential soldiers against them.
> 
> I wouldn't put it past all of them except Ulmo. An unpleasant thought.



The Green-elves of Ossiriand and Thingol wanted nothing to do with Men and neither would tolerate them in their land. That leaves the Falathrim but they are more sailors than warriors. It was the Noldor that saw the potential of Men and taught them much so that the Men who befriended the Noldor became greater than all others of Mankind.

No the elves of Aman would probably want to help their kindred, but then the damage may already have been done.

I think the Valar (except for Ulmo) would be rather passive. Remember they refused to aid the Men and Elves of Beleriand until someone would come and plead the case of both races, despite the fact that it was only the Noldor they were angry at. What does that say about the Valar..?



> Quote:
> “The Fëanorians may have done some terrible things”
> 
> I think I take offense at this.
> 
> Especially since it's probably pointed at me and Celegorm.



I withdraw my statement. The Fëanorians made themselves noticed in ways that can only be describe as unfortunate


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## Curufin

Elf of cave said:


> I think the Valar (except for Ulmo) would be rather passive. Remember they refused to aid the Men and Elves of Beleriand until someone would come and plead the case of both races, despite the fact that it was only the Noldor they were angry at. What does that say about the Valar..?



I agree. It's not like they _needed_ Eärendil to know what was going on. They knew. They were just able to ignore it until Eärendil made them feel guilty about it. I must say that I don't have a lot of respect for the Valar sometimes...they sometimes seem to make very bad choices (like believing Melkor was reformed...).



> I withdraw my statement. The Fëanorians made themselves noticed in ways that can only be describe as unfortunate.



A bit better, I suppose.


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## Turgon

I can't really believe that the Valar would just have sat on their bums and done nothing were it not for the Rebellion of the Noldor. Once Melkor had set about his mischief once more the Valar would have had to have done something. I'm not really sure what the Noldor achieved at all in Middle-earth save for giving us a cracking story to read. Had they stayed in Aman and waited for the Valar to give battle to Melkor with the full hosts of the Vanyar, Noldor and Teleri, then Melkor would have indeed been payed in full. His power and that of his servants broken for ever.


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## Curufin

Respectfully, half-cousin (), I must disagree.

The Valar had many chances to do something about Morgoth once and for all - and they wouldn't do it. They knew he was causing 'mischief' when they called Fëanor before them and learned the extent of his lies. Did they do anything? 

No.

Then he destroyed the Trees, killed Finwë, and ruined the bliss of Valinor. Did they do anything?

No.

Then he went to war for _hundreds of years_ with the Elves in Middle-earth - not just the exiled Ñoldor, but the Sindar as well. They had to have known, because Mandos would have been receiving their fëar daily. Did they do anything? 

No.

They simply removed Valinor from the 'real' world, and set themselves up a nice, pretty little kingdom where nobody could come and ruin their peace.

I think Fëanor has a very strong point when he says: 


> '...if Fëanor cannot overthrow Morogth, at least he delays not to assail him, and sits not idle in grief.'


I lost a lot of respect for the Valar in their isolationism.


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## Turgon

My point though was that had Feanor not rebelled the Valar would have took up arms against Melkor much sooner. The Doom of Mandos put pay for to that - at least until it was played out. It could as easily be argued that Feanor's rebellion was just as much to blame for the suffering in Beleriand as the Valar's inaction. More so as Feanor was the proactive party in this, the Valar the reactive.

Feanor himself says: _*'delays not to assail him, and sits not idle in grief'*_

Note the word delays, not refuses. How much time was there between the Darkening of Valinor and the speech in Tirion? Time enough to take proper council for such a monumentous event? I say no. And since when has grief been an evil? People need time to grieve and to think lest they rush forward into unthinking action making matters worse, as Feanor did.

I would say it was the Rebellion that delayed the Valar, and it was Feanor who prolonged the war. And the divsions that Feanor created that prevented the Valar attacking Melkor with a mighty host before Melkor dug himself into Angband and routing him and his servants utterly.

Anyway, nice to see a new Feanorian on the boards cousin Curufin. It's been a while since we've had any discussions like this...

Hope I'm not out of practice...


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## Curufin

Turgon said:


> My point though was that had Feanor not rebelled the Valar would have took up arms against Melkor much sooner. The Doom of Mandos put pay for to that - at least until it was played out. It could as easily be argued that Feanor's rebellion was just as much to blame for the suffering in Beleriand as the Valar's inaction. More so as Feanor was the proactive party in this, the Valar the reactive.



Doesn't that strike you as odd, though - that _Fëanor_ was the proactive party? Instead of the ones that could actually _win_ the war? If you look at the power of Fëanor versus the power of the Valar, it seems to me that Fëanor was a great deal braver than the Valar ever thought of being. They could actually have _defeated_ Melkor (and eventually they did), but even knowing this, they sat around and debated and blamed the Ñoldor for their inaction. "Oh, we're not going to go and destroy Melkor, because the Ñoldor need to suffer because they behaved badly! " 

If the Valar had acted sooner - like _before_ the trees were destroyed, when they _knew_ Melkor was causing trouble...or perhaps if Manwë had been possessed of a _brain_ and realized that Melkor's repentence was insincere, Fëanor would never have become what he was in the first place, and would still be making pretty trinkets in Valinor and pondering some linguistic text. 

As the history stands, I don't blame Fëanor one bit for the way he reacted. He saw his father murdered and his jewels stolen (two things which I believe he conflated into one in his mind), while the Valar did squat. Did they tell him if he came back to Valinor, they'd work something out, and take care of Melkor? No. Did they tell him that they would try to find justice for his father? No. They just threw threats at him and told him that he'd be cursed if he tried to do the right thing - the thing that they were obviously too cowardly to do. I say bravo to Fëanor for trying to get justice, even when the Valar were too busy crying over the trees.




> Note the word delays, not refuses. How much time was there between the Darkening of Valinor and the speech in Tirion? Time enough to take proper council for such a monumentous event? I say no.


Perhaps not. But neither did they tell Fëanor that they were even considering doing anything. Like I said above, they just started threatening him. And they didn't have a real good track record of reacting.



> And since when has grief been a evil? People need time to grieve and to think lest they rush forward into unthinking action making matters worse, as Feanor did.


If you call what they did making matters worse. I doubt the Edain would think so. 



> I would say it was the Rebellion that delayed the Valar, and it was Feanor who prolonged the war. And the divsions that Feanor created that prevented the Valar attacking Melkor with a mighty host before Melkor dug himself into Angband and routing him and his servants utterly.


I think these are good excuses that the Valar would have made. The truth is, they could have taken care of this problem long before the Rebellion ever happened, and they didn't. Fëanor, with good reason, had no faith that anything would be done, so he did it himself. Totally understandable and justified.



> Anyway, nice to see a new Feanorian on the boards cousin Curufin. It's been a while since we've had any discussions like this...


Yeah, I've noticed there aren't very many of us. Someone has to stick up for our viewpoint once in a while. It seems a bit of a consensus on most boards that we Fëanorians are a bit evil because of all that bunk with Nargothrond...and Lúthien...and Menegroth...and Sirion...but I tell you, *We're just misunderstood!*.


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## Confusticated

The Valar let Sindar, Dwarves, good Noldor who only went into exile for the sake of kinships, and Men die by the thousands just because some Feanorians pissed them off, and we're to believe that suddenly they would care about these people if the Noldor were nicer? No way I'll buy it.

When Melkor strikes the Valar set up their own private stronghold, live in the holy light, then _hoard_ that same light and sit around waiting for the elves to come so they could possess the ones who would follow them into hiding. Then after they do catch Melkor they let him go, okay fine if you want to give him a chance, but when he is seen in close freandship with the Noldor, the clan that just happens to get stirring and becoming distrustful and making weapons, let it occur to you that just maybe Melkor is still pure evil!

Did the Valar say to Feanor: _We understand your grief and we too want to beat Melkor to a pulp, let us all take council together? Let us aid you in your war against Morgoth! Let us help for it is through our own error in negligence that this was able to happen? _Nothing like it. They gave Feanor _no reason_ to wait!

And the Vanyar were sadly caused to be just like them!


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## Curufin

Exactly!

I see the fault as lying far more with the indecisiveness (and perhaps apathy) of the Valar more than the Ñoldor. The Ñoldor reacted perfectly reasonably when pushed as far as they were.


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## Turgon

> I see the fault as lying far more with the indecisiveness (and perhaps apathy) of the Valar more than the Ñoldor. The Ñoldor reacted perfectly reasonably when pushed as far as they were.



The Noldor acted reasonably? How does this conclusion come about? It was reasonable to shed the blood of innocents in the cause of vengance? And then fall upon your own Kinsmen as an expedient to the same?



> Did the Valar say to Feanor: We understand your grief and we too want to beat Melkor to a pulp, let us all take council together? Let us aid you in your war against Morgoth! Let us help for it is through our own error in negligence that this was able to happen? Nothing like it. They gave Feanor no reason to wait!



Did Feanor stay to listen? While the Valar were taking council after this cataclysmic event - Feanor was off to Tirion and on the road in a very short space of time, perhaps less than a day. We are talking about the destruction of the two trees here and a natural order that had lasted for an age.



> When Melkor strikes the Valar set up their own private stronghold, live in the holy light, then hoard that same light and sit around waiting for the elves to come so they could possess the ones who would follow them into hiding. Then after they do catch Melkor they let him go, okay fine if you want to give him a chance, but when he is seen in close freandship with the Noldor, the clan that just happens to get stirring and becoming distrustful and making weapons, let it occur to you that just maybe Melkor is still pure evil!



Considering that only the Firstborn had awoken and that Melkor had pretty much devastated Arda - bringing them to Aman was a good move. Or at least it must have seemed so in their minds. As for Melkor after his release, could the Valar very well lock him up again on mere suspicion without him even commiting a crime? We are talking about people here of a goodness incomprehensible to a human mind. As for the Noldor weapons - weapons they must have had in Middle-earth too. Though cold steel might have been something new.



> As the history stands, I don't blame Fëanor one bit for the way he reacted. He saw his father murdered and his jewels stolen (two things which I believe he conflated into one in his mind), while the Valar did squat. Did they tell him if he came back to Valinor, they'd work something out, and take care of Melkor? No. Did they tell him that they would try to find justice for his father? No. They just threw threats at him and told him that he'd be cursed if he tried to do the right thing - the thing that they were obviously too cowardly to do. I say bravo to Fëanor for trying to get justice, even when the Valar were too busy crying over the trees.



So the death of one man justifies the slaying of the Teleri? And Feanor's wrath is justified because he lost his jewels while the Valar and not allowed to grieve over the destruction of the Two Trees? Which the Silmarils were a mere reflection of...


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## Curufin

Turgon said:


> The Noldor acted reasonably? How does this conclusion come about? It was reasonable to shed the blood of innocents in the cause of vengance? And then fall upon your own Kinsmen as an expedient to the same?...So the death of one man justifies the slaying of the Teleri? And Feanor's wrath is justified because he lost his jewels while the Valar and not allowed to grieve over the destruction of the Two Trees? Which the Silmarils were a mere reflection of...



Now you're going to get me into the theory I spent months working on in my senior seminar paper...

Fëanor's reaction at the slaying of Finwë, and his seeking of vengeance through vigilante methods, is the normal reaction of a society that has lost faith in the police force, the courts, etc.. When these bodies are felt no longer to be providing fair and timely justice, people will take it on themselves to provide that justice themselves. In my historical area of expertise, Northern Ireland, this has been seen time and time again as paramilitaries such as the IRA or the UVF have taken on the task of policing these areas - either because there is no faith in the police in these areas, or because the police have shown time and time again that they are not unbiased. 

This is what happens to Fëanor. He has seen repeatedly how the Valar have punished him while doing nothing to Melkor. He is banished to Formenos - Melkor's part in his actions is completely ignored. He doesn't even get a slap on the wrist. Fëanor sees Melkor forgiven and forgiven while doing grevious harm. How does drawing a sword on your brother in anger (and not even hurting him) compare to what Melkor has done? And yet, it could be argued that Fëanor has actually suffered more for his deeds than Melkor has. 

Seeing this to be completely and utterly unfair, Fëanor realizes that he's not going to find justice unless he creates that justice himself. He realizes that nobody is going to take on Melkor but himself. So, in the absence of any reasonably effective justice system, Fëanor has no choice but to do it himself. Therefore, it is the fault of the _Valar_ for not instilling more faith in the Ñoldor that this problem would be taken care of. Their apathy and delay has caused Fëanor and the Ñoldor to question the legitimacy of the state (you can see how Fëanor challenges their authority again and again). This is not a fault of the Ñoldor, but of the sub-par governing methods of the Valar. 

There, a political science perspective.


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## Turgon

I don't buy it.

Feanor is not a paramilitary. He has a few bad dealings with Valar in which he comes of worse. Pride leads Feanor to these actions, he listens to the lies of Melkor and then draws a sword upon his own brother. It's hardly the same. Come the Darkening of Valinor he doesn't even give the Valar a day to respond before he is off. Your theory doesn't excuse his actions any more than it excuses the IRA or UVA or any other paramilitary group. Your theory might well _explain why_ the IRA or UVA acted the way they did. Feanor's case is entirely different.


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## Curufin

I'm not trying to _excuse_ anyone, and certainly not paramilitaries.  I'm just trying to show that Fëanor's mindset is the same.

They're not going to do what they're there to do - so I've got to do it myself.


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## Confusticated

Turgon said:


> Considering that only the Firstborn had awoken and that Melkor had pretty much devastated Arda - bringing them to Aman was a good move. Or at least it must have seemed so in their minds.


I believe it did seem like a _good idea_, but was it one? And even if every elf went to hide in Aman, what about Men? Didn't the Valar know that these couldn't live in Valinor? And every moment they wait Morgoth would grow stronger.




> As for Melkor after his release, could the Valar very well lock him up again on mere suspicion without him even commiting a crime?



No, as I said, I wouldn't expect them to deny him the right of proving he had changed. The point is that one might expect them to been keen enough of mind to catch on to what Melkor was doing among the Noldor. 

Feanor could only base his notions of what the Valar would and could do about Morgoth and Ungoliant on what he knew of their past actions, and those past actions indicate the Valar's tendency to towards idle sitting while Melkor builds power and does destruction.


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## YayGollum

I was looking at this thread and thinking about employing my creepy moderating powers to move a bunch of the posts over to this thread ---> http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?t=18102&page=3, but I figure that it might be annoying or confusing, so how's about I just request that such discussions continue over there? Here, we can continue to see what everyone's favorite elfish sort is. Mine? Still the Nandor, because they're not especially popular, they keep to themselves, they're way better than everybody else at at least one thing, and they weren't as annoying as the others (maybe just because Tolkien didn't write much about them, though ).


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## Turgon

I didn't actually vote on this poll until yesterday - and I actually plumped for the Teleri. I'm finding them a more attractive people as I get older.

It's strange to think that I used to be a fervent Feanorian myself - but as I get on in years I find them harder and harder to understand.


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## Curufin

Which is exactly the opposite of me...

When I first read the Sil seven years ago when I was 23, I hated Fëanor and his ilk.

Then I saw the light.


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## Turgon

> _Originally posted by Nom_
> 
> I believe it did seem like a good idea, but was it one? And even if every elf went to hide in Aman, what about Men? Didn't the Valar know that these couldn't live in Valinor? And every moment they wait Morgoth would grow stronger.



Wasn't Melkor captured before the Great Journey? Can't quite remember at the moment - been a while since I read the Silmarillion. As for men - weren't they to come after? Who knows what plans the Valar or even Iluvatar had in mind? Teaching the Firstborn in Valinor and then sending them back out into Middle-earth to nurture mankind and healing the hurts of the world? At least in the beginning. The Valar did get complacent - but that is their character. I've always thought that had been a possibility and that in some ways the return of the Noldor was a version of that which Melkor corrupted. 

I'm not trying to defend the Valar at all - Ulmo is really the only Valar I've ever had any time for as I think he was always the better instrument of Iluvatar - and I've often said that Ulmo's music could well have been a different theme in Eru's symphony which is why he stands apart from the other Valar. What I'm saying is the Noldor - and the Feanorian's in particular were rash in the extreme and that left in the Valar's hands the suffering of Middle-earth, in fact all of Arda, would have been much less.


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## Illuin

Well, it’s obvious that the *Noldor* were Tolkien’s favorite, since they were central to the story, but I have to break it down. *Finrod Felagund* was my favorite Tolkien character in all of his writings (with *Anardil* - aka *Tar-Aldarion*, *Luthien*, and *Turin* close behind). *Fingolfin* was awesome; *Thingol* was a boob; *Feanor* and sons were mighty Elves, but fools (I liked Maedhros though). *Cirdan* was one of my favorites. *Eol *was creepy. *Maeglin* was a weirdo. *Galadriel* and *Legolas* were cool. The literature regarding the *Vanyar* is too scarce to judge them by, so they are out (nice job during the War of Wrath though). Well, tallying all of this up, I have to go with the *Noldor*.


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## Illuin

> by Turgon
> _I'm not trying to defend the Valar at all - Ulmo is really the only Valar I've ever had any time for as I think he was always the better instrument of Iluvatar_


 
I agree. He was the only Vala that seemed to care for the Humans, not just the Elves. Men were pretty much forgotten it would seem by the rest of the Valar.


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