# Could Carcharoth have beaten Sauron in Wolf form?



## Celebthôl (May 21, 2003)

In the Sil Carcharoth kills Huan. Yet yet the prophecy says that Huan would only die by the most powerful Dog/Wolf on Arda. How can this be as when Sauron turned into the a Wolf (or Dog) the mightiest that Arda had seen (or somthing like that) he was defeted by Huan yet If Sauron was the greatest Dog/Wolf on earth, how come he doesnt kill Huan? Does this mean that Carcharoth was mightier? therefore Mr Tolkien (not sure which one) made a mistake?

So could Carcharoth take on Sauron in Dog/Wolf form?

Thôl


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## Niniel (May 21, 2003)

I think Sauron in wolf shape was not counted as a wolf, since he wasn't a wolf all the time.


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## YayGollum (May 22, 2003)

Where does it ever say that Sauron was the greatest wolf of all time? No, it's obviously the scary Carcharoth guy. Yes, Carcharoth could have killed Sauron. But probably only if they were both in wolf form. I think The Sil. says that Sauron was the most powerful dude that ever worked for Mel.


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## Lantarion (May 22, 2003)

Hard to say, at least for me..
Huan bested Sauron pretty easily, and he was the hound of the Valar.. But then he was bested by Carcharoth.
I'd say that Carcharoth would win the 'Wolf'-Sauron; after all, weren't they both Maiar? But Sauron's powers were chiefly in terror and deceit, not in battle; whereas it seems that Carcharoth was made for battle.


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## Beleg (May 22, 2003)

Original Question by Thol, 
_In the Sil Carcharoth kills Huan. Yet yet the prophecy says that *Huan would only die by the most powerful Dog/Wolf on Arda.* How can this be as when Sauron turned into the a Wolf (or Dog) the mightiest that Arda had seen (or somthing like that) he was defeted by Huan yet If Sauron was the greatest Dog/Wolf on earth, how come he doesnt kill Huan? Does this mean that Carcharoth was mightier? therefore Mr Tolkien (not sure which one) made a mistake?

So could Carcharoth take on Sauron in Dog/Wolf form?_




> Huan followed Celegorm into exile, and was faithful; and thus he too came under the doom of woe set upon the Noldor, and it was decreed that he should meet death, *but not until he encountered the mightiest wolf* that would ever walk the world.





> Therefore he took upon himself the form of a* werewolf,* and made himself the mightiest* that had yet walked the world;* and he came forth to win the passage of the bridge.





> . Rumour of he knew not what designs abroad among the princes of the Elves had come to Morgoth, and ever down the aisles of the forest was heard the baying of Huan, the great hound of war, whom long ago the Valar unleashed.* Then Morgoth recalled the doom of Huan, and he chose one from among the whelps of the race of Draugluin;* and he fed him with his own hand upon living flesh, and put his power upon him. Swiftly the wolf grew, until he could creep into no den, but lay huge and hungry before the feet of Morgoth. There the fire and anguish of hell entered into him, and he became filled with a devouring spirit, tormented, terrible, and strong. Carcharoth, the Red Maw, he is named in the tales of those days, and Anfauglir, the Jaws of Thirst. And Morgoth set him to lie unsleeping before the doors of Angband, lest Huan come.



1. The prophecy told that he would not die "until he encountered" the greatest wolf of all, something a bit different from saying that he would die by the hands of Carcharoth. 

2. Sauron in essence was not a wolf itself, but a maia, so he shouldn't be counted amongst the beast of Wolf kind. There has to be a difference between Shape-shifters and Original characters. 

3. Carcharoth on the other hand was a pure wolf, of the werewolf kind, a descendent of mighty Draughlin. Besides to him was bestowed some of the power of Morgoth too. Which increased his feyness and enhanced his power. But the phrase bolded in the third Quote indicates to me that Carcharoth was indeed the greatest wolf that was ever born in Arda, that is if we view those strictly of wolven lineage.

*Points in favor of Carcharoth*: 1. He is an original wolf.
2. To him has been bestowed some of the power of Morgoth. 


*Points against Carcharoth:* 1. He has not been specifically stated as being the greatest wolf to walk on earth. 


*Points in Favour of Sauron:* 1. He has been stated as the great wolf to ever walk on the face of Middle-Earth.
2. He is a maia, which perhaps gives him some extra advantage. 

*Points against Sauron:* 1. He is a shapeshifter and not an original wolf. 
2. We don't know if he practised often the practice of changing shape into a wolf....perhaps he might have been a bit rusty when he met Huan... 

 

To answer the last Question, I guess no. As a complete and seperate individual, without the power of Morgoth, a fight between Carcharoth and Sauron would easily be won by Sauron. 
But in the wider context, we can intrepret through many of the hints presented to us that Carcharoth was a greater wolf then Sauron. 




> Posted by Lanti weren't they both Maiar?



Carcharoth was said to have been one from the race of Draughluin.

Edit: Another thought. As I said that "until he encountered' the greatest wolf is a bit different from saying "he would die by the hands of the greatest wolf." The Prophecy can still be true, because he encoutered Sauron, the greatest wolf ever first but was killed by Carcharoth later. But that scenario could be accounted as a theory if we regard Sauron as a proper wolf, and not just a shapeshifter.


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## Celebthôl (May 22, 2003)

Hah hah very thoughrolly aswered, thank you very much Beleg,  a very good job that answered it perfectly 

Thôl


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## Ithrynluin (May 22, 2003)

Since Huan and Carcharoth were more or less peers and equals, and were killed by one another, and Wolf-Sauron was clearly inferior to Huan, we can safely assume that Wolf-Sauron was lesser than Carcharoth.

Even if we regard Sauron as a real wolf, the prophecy still points to Carcharoth. Huan did not 'meet death' at the hands of Sauron but at the paws  of Carcharoth. It is quite obvious that Carcharoth is the greatest of wolves. The theory that encountering Sauron first (and him being the greatest wolf) and then being killed by a random wolf, is just too far fetched IMO.


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## Celebthôl (May 22, 2003)

But then could Carcharoth take on Sauron in Wolf form as it was really the poison that killed Huan, not the fact he was mauled beyond repair, and the poison wouldnt affect a Maia in the same way therefore logic dictates that Saron was the mightier as Huan was not ever out matched...


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## Ithrynluin (May 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Celebthôl _
> * and the poison wouldnt affect a Maia in the same way *



Why not? Sauron had an incarnate body and would suffer from the poison too...no difference here.


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## Celebthôl (May 22, 2003)

would he? i mean if Gandalf got shot with a morgul dart (which are poisoned) would he die? it doesnt seem likely...but i dont really know...


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## Ithrynluin (May 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Celebthôl _
> *would he? i mean if Gandalf got shot with a morgul dart (which are poisoned) would he die? it doesnt seem likely...but i dont really know... *



If Gandalf fell into an abyss, would he die?  

Their bodies were very much real. They were susceptible to hunger, weariness, cold, and could be slain...


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## Celebthôl (May 23, 2003)

yes theres no point in denying that, but their bodies are surely more capable and able to handle things like that a lot better than a normal body?

Also he never died b/c of his fall, it was more down to a battle to the death with a Balrog  but i bet a normal Man would have been slain by the Balrog due to the injuries (sp) recieved, a lot quicker than Gandalf did, and therefore would have been Balrog Bate


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