# Does Faramir hear Ulmo's voice?



## Fimbrethil (Nov 26, 2002)

> 'In that dream I thought the eastern sky grew dark and there was a growing thunder, but in the West a pale light lingered, and out of it I heard a voice, remote but clear, crying:
> 
> _Seek for the Sword that was broken:
> In Imladris it dwells;
> ...





Which of the Valar would have spoken to Faramir? I do not have the Sil at hand, but I remember that Ulmo, Lord of Waters, was the one who spoke to men, whose voice was most often heard by mortals. Gandalf alludes to the lords of the west occasionally, saying that Bilbo and Frodo were meant to recieve the ring, by a power that was beyond the Rings ken.

Would you agree? Or is that dream perhaps a result of the inkling of numeanor blood that remains in Faramir's veins, the blood that lends him perception, and foresight.


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## Lantarion (Nov 26, 2002)

Hmm, great question! I had always assumed it was the latter, but now I lean towards the former..
As to which Vala it could be, that's a difficult question. I suppose Ulmo could have spoken to Faramir, and it's even probable because after all Ulmo lived and spoke often through the waters of the world, and Faramir and all his homies lived in the cave of Henneth Annûn, which was right beside a large waterfall and a lake.. hmm
But because it came as a dream, and because words related with the internal affairs of Middle-Earth were used (eg. Morgul, Sword-that-was-Broken, Isildur's Bane, Halfling), I think it less probable that a Vala spoke to Faramir.. But it's a very interesting idea.


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## Fimbrethil (Nov 26, 2002)

It just randomly occurred to me  Because we see so little of those grand figures which represent Iluvatars plan, only those great figures who end up corrupting it, what of those who care deeply for men and elves, such as Ulmo?

Plus the voice seems to come out of the west in his dream. Hmm...Which Valar was it who had most domain over dreams?


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## Ithrynluin (Nov 26, 2002)

Irmo a.k.a. Lórien was the Vala of dreams and visions so it was maybe he who "sent" this vision to Faramir. But Olorin a.k.a. Gandalf was of the people of Irmo and Faramir was on very good terms with Gandalf (Denethor even calls Faramir "a wizard's pupil" or something to that effect).
Did Gandalf send some subliminal message to Faramir? Is there a connection between the Ainur and Faramir at all?


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## Fimbrethil (Nov 27, 2002)

That is a good point, it could have been Olorin ...hhmmm....

The image which still sticks in my mind is Ulmo telling someone .....I give up, I need my copy of the Sil to do this properly.


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## Lantarion (Nov 27, 2002)

Do you mean speaking to Tuor? Because Ulmo spoke to him openly, not in a dream..


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## Fimbrethil (Nov 27, 2002)

I kept wanting to call him Huor and I knew that wasn't right 

Yus, the Tuor blokey  Gawds I sound like an idiot  I asure you I'm not this scatterbrained normally.

So, so far we have

1) Faramirs own numeanorian type farsight
2) Irmo speaking through dreams
3) Ulmo speaking through dreams
4) Olorin/Gandalf speaking through dreams


I wonder if a more indepth search of the HoME will produce any clues as it this....*sighs at her lack of funds*


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## Ceorl (Nov 30, 2002)

Never rule out Manwe, although it is unlikely that he did something personally you can be sure that he was behind it. But then there is Mandos, the doomsman of the Valar, and Eonwe the herald of the Valar.

Personally I do not really think it was Ulmo, Lant says that he would have spoken to him at Henneth Annun through the waterfall, but I think that Faramir was probably at home, I am sure he does not go to the waterfall so often and he certainly doesn'y live there.



> But because it came as a dream, and because words related with the internal affairs of Middle-Earth were used (eg. Morgul, Sword-that-was-Broken, Isildur's Bane, Halfling), I think it less probable that a Vala spoke to Faramir.. But it's a very interesting idea.



I disagree, Manwe could see everything that happened in ME, and these terms are outsiders terms; no names are given except for Morgul, which means sorcery and would be a common term for Sauron's works.


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## Lantarion (Nov 30, 2002)

Yes, but I was referring to Ulmo, not Manwë.
And as for the "being at home": Faramir and his Rangers held the fort at Ithilien for a long time, although I don't remember how long precisely, so I think it was very possible that he and his Rangers were there for nigh on a year, making it plausible that Ulmo might have spoken to him 'through' the Henneth Annûn waterfall. 
What do you mean, 'no name sare given except Morgul'?? I listed the names given in my last post! Halfling, Isildur's Bane, the Sword that was Broken. I think it is possible that Ulmo did not know about the internal affairs of M-E. Manwë certainly does, although this is not clear because the participation of the Valar in the Third Age is a very hazy affair.


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## Fimbrethil (Nov 30, 2002)

I always got the impression that Ulmo, the only Valar who did not dwell in Valinor, paid more attention to the affairs of middle earth. He hears through many waters, and he has many servants. With the Anduin being crossed regularly by Faramir, and the many other rives....*shrug* I haven't got the sil here with me, so I can't support this yet.


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## Elfarmari (Nov 30, 2002)

> From the Silmarillion, _Of the Beginning of Days_
> And thus it was by the power of Ulmo that even under the darkness of Melkor life coursed still through many secret lodes, and the Earth did not die; and to all who were lost in that darkness or wandered far from the light of the Valar the ear of Ulmo was ever open; nor has he ever forsaken Middle-earth, and whatsoever may since have befallen of ruin or of change he has not ceased to take thought for it, and will not until the end of days.



This would lead me to believe that Ulmo would have 'kept up' with what was going on in ME, and would possible known about the Halflings, Isildur's Bane, etc.


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## Fimbrethil (Dec 11, 2002)

thats the quote I was thinking of


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## Celebithil (Dec 20, 2002)

*Timetable*

I'm unsure about the exact timetable (too lazy to really look it up) but presuming it was Gandalf/Olorin who told Faramir about Isildurs Bane he couldn't have done so until he comfirmed it with Frodo at bag end. Even if it was immediately after he found out how long would it take for Faramir to tell everyone in Gondor then they decide to have Boromir go to Imladris and then the journey there. Would Boromir have been able to arrive in time for the council and such. Unsure myself but just an idea.


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