# What exactly does Narya do for Gandalf?



## Ancalagon

Cirdan the Shipwright gave Narya to Gandalf upon his arrival to Middle-Earth. 


> 'Take now this Ring,' he said; 'for thy labours and thy cares will be heavy, but in all it will support thee and defend thee from weariness. For this is the Ring of Fire, and herewith, maybe, thou shalt rekindle hearts to the valour of old in a world that grows chill. But as for me, my heart is with the Sea, and I well dwell by the grey shores, guarding the Havens until the last ship sails. Then I shall await thee.'


_The Silmarillion - The Rings of Power_ 

Though Gandalf himself states in Moria;



> `You cannot pass,' he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. `I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.'
> `


 _The Fellowship of the Ring - The Bridge of Khazad Dum_ 

In a description of Mithrandir it states; 


> Warm and eager was his spirit (and it was enhanced by the ring Narya), for he was the Enemy of Sauron, opposing the fire that devours and wastes with the fire that kindles, and succours in wanhope and distress; but his joy, and his swift wrath, were veiled in garments grey as ash, so that only those that knew him well glimpsed the flame that was within.


_Unfinished Tales - The Istari_ 

Yet throughout the books references are also made to Gandalds skill with Fire;


> and the old man was Gandalf the Wizard, whose fame in the Shire was due mainly to his skill with fires, smokes, and lights.


_The Fellowship of the Ring - A Long Expected Party_ 



> But not Gandalf. Bilbo's yell had done that much good. It had wakened him up wide in a splintered second, and when goblins came to grab hi, there was a terrific flash like lightning in the cave, a smell like gunpowder, and several of them fell dead.





> Just at that moment all the lights in the cavern went out, and the great fire went off poof! into a tower of blue glowing smoke, right up to the roof, that scattered piercing white sparks all among the goblins


_The Hobbit - Over Hill and Under Hill_ 

'Why his he bringing all this up,' you might ask? Well, what I wonder is; What exactly is Gandalfs ability with fire as a wizard? Is it enhanced by The Ring of Fire, or does that only instil an ability to gave men and Elves courage and strength? What exactly is The Flame of Anor and how does he weild it?

There, that should keep you going for a while...........or maybe not?


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## Camille

Good point! my humble opinion is that Wizards have a special power, lets see Saruman: fair voice, Radagast the super ability to talk with animals and to know all about the olvar and kelvar, Gandalf made magic fires (remember also when company of adventurers were attacked by Werewolf, he set some of them on fire, he change the color of his rings smoke) does the ring has to do something about it ...maybe


> For this is the Ring of Fire, and herewith, maybe, thou shalt rekindle hearts to the valour of old in a world that grows chill.


I think Galndalf used the ring in many occasion: To liberate Theoden from Grima "spell", at the battle of Pelennor fields it is said that when he was with the Minas Tirith people the felt more valour.
Mmm the secret fire... Where did I read about it? I remember someone suggested than it was the Imperishable Flame.


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## Ancalagon

I am certain that nobody would wield The Flame Imperishible on Middle-Earth! This is more to do with the Ring of Fire, though I do not know how. Possible something to do with Minas Anor, though I am not sure of the relation?


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## Camille

Neither am I.. But does the ring or Gandalf has something special with Minas Arnor? I am still thinking in the IF, but maybe it was as an allegory Gandalf was the wisest maia, and he was sent by the Valar to guide the races of arda against the evil, and the IF was in the children of Iluvatar... ok ok I lost the point not necessary that way but that is somehow my idea i mean canbe somethin like in the name of the king .... so Gandalf saif in the name of the Flame of Arnor .. but again why Arnor and not IF?


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## Darth Saruman

> What exactly does Narya do for Gandalf?


It makes him look pretty.


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## Ancalagon

> It makes him look pretty.



Boy, I really set myself up for that one


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## Gothmog

Narya was one of the three Elven Rings made by Celebrimbor alone. They were not made to control or to destroy but to preserve. Therefore any powers invested in Gandalf by Narya would be of a preservative nature. Círdan said of the Ring that it would Support and defend from weariness, and maybe help to rekindle hearts to valour of old. These qualities are all of a preservative type. To support, to defend, to rekindle valour in defence of that which is. Of itself it has no offensive powers and cannot be used as a weapon in battle, so what it did for Gandalf was to aid him to continue longer and recover quicker with the possibility that his words would have more impact on those that heard him. This no doubt was of greatest help during such times as when the Nazgul were flying over Minas Tirith and causing such fear and dread.



> `You cannot pass,' he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. `I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.'


 Ok. Gandalf described himself as 'a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor.' These are two different things and both could not mean the Flame Imperishable, if either.

However, in my opinion the first part does in fact refer to the Flame Imperishable as this was placed at the centre of Ea when Eru made it. Therefore as the Flame Imperishable is the life of Arda and the Valar and the Maiar are the powers in varying degree of Arda it could be said that all of the Valar and Maiar were Servants of the Secret Fire. So Gandalf is only saying that he was a Servant of the Life of Arda, hinting at the same time that the Balrog was Against this Life.

As for the statement 'wielder of the flame of Anor, This seems to have some reference to the Sun. The Sun was a Flower of Laurelin the Golden Tree of Valinor brought forth by the power of Yavanna. This cannot Mean that Gandalf in any way wields the Flame Imperishable, in any case the only one who can do so is Eru and Gandalf is not Eru. So it may be that Olórin was a Maiar with some affinity for fire and so when he was sent to Middle-earth he had great skill with such things as were connected with fire. This would account for his use of fire in battle and also his famous Firework displays.

However, I would view 'wielder of the flame of Anor' to mean that, as Anor refers to the Flower of Laurelin of Valinor, that he was given some powers relating to fire when he was made an Istari by the Valar and therefore as the Sun came from the Valar so did Gandalf's power. Therefore, wielder of the flame of Anor - wielder of the flame of the Sun - wielder of the flame of the Valar.

So another way of saying what he did could well be:-


> `You cannot pass,' he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. `I am a servant of the Life of Arda (Flame Imperishable), wielder of the flame of the Valar (the powers he was given/allowed to use, by the Valar). You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.'


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## Ancalagon

> But of Olórin that tale does not speak; for though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts. In later days he was the friend of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and took pity on their sorrows; and those who listened to him awoke from despair and put away the imaginations of darkness.


 _VALAQUENTA_ 

This begs the question; why did Gandalf ever need Narya in the first place?



> So it may be that Olórin was a Maiar with some affinity for fire and so when he was sent to Middle-earth he had great skill with such things as were connected with fire.



All Maiar it would seem have an affinity with fire, especially Balrogs who chose the form of Fire when they harkened to Melkor. However, there is a distinctly different slant to Gandalfs statement because of the fact that the Balrog, known as the Flame of Udun, was actually on fire.



> The flames roared up to greet it, and wreathed about it; and a black smoke swirled in the air. Its streaming mane kindled, and blazed behind it. In its right hand was a blade like a stabbing tongue of fire; in its left it held a whip of many thongs.



So why would Gandalf counteract this obvious fiery opponent with a claim that he was a wielder of the Flame of Anor? What exactly is the flame of Anor that can be controlled and manipulated? What did Gandalf hope to achieve by making this claim to a Maia who, by all accounts, was imbued with the very same Flame Imperishable that Olorin was in the beginning?


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## Gothmog

> Therefore I say: Eä! Let these things Be! And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be;


 from the Silmarillion: The Music of the Ainur.

The Flame Imperishable was at the heart of Ea. Not uasable by any of the Ainur who came to Arda. the Ainur were Kindled with the Flame Imperishable not imbued with it.

Olorin as a Maia in Valinor was very much more powerful than as Gandalf the Grey or even the White, of the Istari in Middle-earth. As Gandalf he was subject to weariness and therefore would find help from the ring Narya in this matter. Also as his powers were lessened to come to Middle-earth, I would have thought that this would deminish all of the powers he had as a Maia and so Narya would have helped also in him gaining support from many peoples for the fight against Sauron.

In talking to the Balrog Gandalf refered to his fire as "The Dark Fire" while calling himself "Wielder of the Fire of Anor". If Anor means the Sun then he is calling himself Wielder of the Light Fire against the Dark Fire of the Balrog. Therefore I feel that the Fire of Anor would refer to his status as a Maia or Istari serving the Valar and nothing to do with the ring Narya which was not made as a weapon of battle but a device of preservation.


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## Ithrynluin

> _Originally posted by Ancalagon _
> * All Maiar it would seem have an affinity with fire, especially Balrogs who chose the form of Fire when they harkened to Melkor.
> *



I disagree.Why would all Maiar have an affinity with fire? The Maiar of Aulë the Smith (like Saruman,Sauron) have it, but not every Maia. Gandalf was allegedly of the "people" of Manwë and Varda and should therefore have an affinity with air/light.There are several instances that imply this:
1.When Gandalf "lights up" the hall in Moria.
2.His constant association with the Eagles (who are messengers of Manwë himself)
3.The lightning bolts that he uses to defend himself against the Nazgul. I don't understand why so many people associate this with the element of fire. It is a pure element of air if you ask me.
4.The light that emanates from his hand when he defends Faramir in "The siege of Gondor"

Anyway,that's what I think!
BTW,excellent analysis Gothmog!


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## Gothmog

Thank you ithrynluin. It is nice to have one's work appreciated.


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## Ancalagon

Why are the Ainur/Maiar certain to have an affinity with fire (or Ice), because they are the elements that gave rise to Arda and all within it. They are of the Earth, the waters, the land, the fires and the ice. They are the off-shoots from the mind of Iluvatar and unaffected by that which would be deadly to us. Each has a part, but all are linked to the other;



> Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Ilúvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Ilúvatar and descended into it. But this condition Ilúvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs. And therefore they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.





> And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable,



Of course this does not mean they were imparted with a ball of fire that they could play about with and throw at people! 



> Being in the moment of their utterance, for al shall then understand fully his intent in their part, and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Ilúvatar shall give to their thoughts the secret fire, being well pleased.



I am not questioning the Secret Fire that Gandalf refers to, this quote states the obvious. 

The question here is whether the Flame of Anor is representative of Narya. It is not a reference to The Flame, for that he has already referred to as The Secret Fire. Nor do I beleive that the Flame of Anor is lierally a flame! I can only surmise that it in some way relates to Narya and Gandalfs own powers. Don't know how to explain other than the Rings were designed to capture the essence of the elements; Fire, Earth and Air. Although you can assume that they were preservative in nature, did they not also enhance the powers of Gandalf, over the Elves who also wore the 2, and create a multitude of capabilities that Gandalf could wield. Not the least of these is the ability to give fortitude, strength and courage to those who fought against the Dark Lord himself. 
Yet is there more to this than meets the eye? What is the link with fire? Is it the element that he refers to in opposition to the fire that surrounds the Balrog? Does Anor mean Sun? Where did you glean this information?


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## Ancalagon

> Anar the Fire-golden, fruit of Laurelin, they named the Sun. But the Noldor named them also Rána, the Wayward, and Vása, the Heart of Fire, that awakens and consumes; for the Sun was set as a sign for the awakening of Men and the waning of the Elves, but the Moon cherishes their memory.



Anar = Sun, it is Quenya. Though Minas Anor = Tower of the Sun, so I can see your meaning. What then is Olorins relation to the Sun? It must stem from the kindling of the Sun way back when! It could have reference to the fact that the Balrog would probably never have set eyes on the Sun, though this still does not account for how Gandalf wields whatever it actually is? Light could be the answer ithrynluin, though how does he wield it? Where does this bility come frm? Hmmmmm, I am questioning this whole thread again, as more comes to 'light!'  

Olórin though refers to dreams in Sindarin. Where does this link in with Sun or fire or light? Oh no, what have I done, I won't sleep tonight, and no-one is coming up with answers! I need answers, this isnt an arguement, it is a debate with the sole purpose of learning. So teach me


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## Ithrynluin

I am not in disagreement with you Ancalagon.You have provided us with *a lot* of valuable information and excellent opinions.I have merely pointed out the association of Gandalf with air/light/whatever 

**Light could be the answer ithrynluin, though how does he wield it? Where does this bility come frm?**
Could it be an "innate" ability that Olorin would possess being a maia of light/air (darn,I'm just repeating myself over and over again ) 
Sauron (and Saruman?) possesses the innate ability with fire/forging. He has control over fire itself(Mount Doom-volcano)
Olorin then must have some control over light (LIGHT FIRE) itself,esp. when that light gets into a conflict with evil (DARK FIRE),which we see in his clash with the Balrog.Olorin's "fire" is a mighty weapon against the Balrog,given that evil is "not very fond" of such (light) fire;and I suppose that Olorin's fire was all the mightier because it was enhanced by Narya.The Balrog (also a maia of fire like Sauron)then wields the total opposite of this "light fire" and his fire "devours and wastes" in opposition to Olorin's which "kindles and succours in wanhope and distress"

**And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable,**
I do not think the "Flame" (or fire) here is meant literally,but rather as a force that gives life and nurtures it

I'm sorry for being so incoherent,my thoughts are simply running wild and this post looks like a monologue. 

I too cannot sleep Ancalagon but I'm sure we'll find an answer!


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## Ancalagon

We never did find an answer to this!


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## Eledhwen

> `You cannot pass,' he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. `I am a *servant* of the Secret Fire, *wielder* of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.'


I think 'servant' is a bigger word here than its everyday use. Gandalf is in the service of the Secret Fire and, (given the circumstances) mentions it because with such service comes authority - authority to wield (offensive - you wield a sword, not a shield). Gandalf is announcing his credentials (I am a police officer) and his power (I have a gun).


> _Ainulindale_: Never since have the Ainur made any music like to this music, though it has been said that a greater still shall be made before Iluvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the children of Iluvatar after the end of days. Then the themes of Iluvatar shall be played aright, and take Being in the moment of their utterance, for all shall then understand fully his intent in their part, and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Iluvatar shall give to their thoughts the secret fire, being well pleased.


Apparently, the secret fire is to be given in reward to 'the choirs of the Ainur and the children of Iluvatar' when the themes are 'played aright, and take Being in the moment of their utterance'. It seems to me that Gandalf's servanthood is towards that end, and a very powerful position with the authority of Iluvatar behind it. The flame he wields - the flame of the Sun (confirmed by the Index to LotR) is wielded with authority. Gandalf's staff shattered as well as the bridge when the power was released at the Balrog's attempt to pass; and when the Balrog dragged Gandalf down after him, he was not just challenging Gandalf the Grey, but the authority of Iluvatar and the power vested in Gandalf by that authority.

Narya (From the Sil index)_ nar 'fire' in Narsil, Narya; ... The Sindarin form was Naur, as in Sammath Naur, the Chambers of Fire in Orodruin. Derived from the same ancient root (a)nar was the name of the Sun. _ 

The ring Narya didn't seem much cop at helping Gandalf against weariness, which he seemed to suffer from. But its 'fire' and 'sun' properties may have catalysed Gandalf's own power at need - a light shining in the darkness.


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## Celebthôl

Gothmog said:


> However, I would view 'wielder of the flame of Anor' to mean that, as Anor refers to the Flower of Laurelin of Valinor, that he was given some powers relating to fire when he was made an Istari by the Valar and therefore as the Sun came from the Valar so did Gandalf's power. Therefore, wielder of the flame of Anor - wielder of the flame of the Sun - wielder of the flame of the Valar.




The way I see it is that he contained the light that Glorfindel also contained when he approached the Nazgúl:

"...beyond the riders that hesitated on the shore, a shining figure of white light..."

"I thought I saw a white figure that shone and did not grow dim like the others. Was that Glorfindel then?" <Frodo>

This light almost certainly came from having been in Valinor and from being in the light of the 2 Trees, and its pretty obvious Gandalf had done this too, so the _Flame of Anor_ i take to mean that like, the light of the sun, which in turn was the light of Laurelin...

EDIT: If this has been said already i appologise, but it was something that came to me so i thought i should get it down other than put it off and forget it


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## Bucky

I Like that last post......

Very interesting thread.

_ Don't know how to explain other than the Rings were designed to capture the essence of the elements; Fire, Earth and Air. Although you can assume that they were preservative in nature, did they not also enhance the powers of Gandalf, over the Elves who also wore the 2, and create a multitude of capabilities that Gandalf could wield. Not the least of these is the ability to give fortitude, strength and courage to those who fought against the Dark Lord himself. _

You'e on to something here......

The Rings do more than just 'preserve'. In 'preserving', they have an outward effect......

'The Stars of heaven shone brightest on Rivendell'

Somehow, there's power to command the Bruinen at the Ford to flood & drown the Black Rider's steeds......

Lothlorien has a 'girdle' of sorts where evil can apparently not enter in.

Those are tangible, powerful usages of those Rings if that's where the ability to do those things came from.

If the Ring Elrond wore could make the stars shine brighter, or water wash away an enemy, isn't it reasonable to assume Gandalf's Ring could make him have a few extra powers with fire?

Remember. Elrond was ONLY using the river flooding as a defensive, not offensive weapon.....

Same with Gandalf's 'fire powers'.......

So, while the Three Rings cannot be used as 'weapons of war & conquest', they may give a power to defend.


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## Niirewen

ancalagon said:


> What exactly does Narya do for Gandalf?



It allows him to make really great fireworks, of course!  

On a more serious note- the information you all have come up with is very interesting. Very impressive!


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## Úlairi

Well, in answer to Gothmog, mightiest of the Valaraukar , I would indeed say that if Anor was a reference to the Sun, then Gandalf too, would be the wielder of the 'Dark Fire' that he refers to the Balrog as. The hand of Melkor touched Laurelin and Telperion and marred them also. One could also argue that as 'Arda Marred' was the cause of Melkor, the Two Trees, being created by Yavanna, were also 'marred' as sub-creation requires the use of something pre-existing. Therefore the Sun and the Moon were also 'marred'. If Narya was indeed a reference to the Flame of the Sun, then the power of Melkor too, would also be inherent in it. If you do not agree to that, then the very substance of the Ring of Narya too, had the 'taint of Melkor' in it. Therefore any flame (save the Flame Imperishable itself), too, would be tainted by the power of Melkor. Any sub-creation was 'marred'. I am not saying that Narya was inherently evil, as that is absurd, but it is of an evil origin, a substance that is tainted used for the doing of good. That is why I don't like _The Silmarillion_ in that regard, Tolkien's version of the Sun and the Moon in _Myths Transformed_ is far more informative and well thought-out, and it is of great wonder to me why CT didn't publish that at least as an Appendix to the Sil. 

If indeed, the Flame of Anor was a reference to Narya, it wouldn't make any sense, as fighting fire with fire is (of course) absurd. So, if Gandalf is truly to be accounted as wise, I personally believe that it isn't Narya that he's referring to, besides, it would not help him in the battle, as the power of the Three was strictly in the preservation of the _hröa_ and its surroundings. Every Elf that was in possession of one of the Three had a realm of his/her own. It wasn't that Gandalf was going to wield the power of Narya to overthrow a Balrog! Ooh, watch out, I'll stick you in a jar and *preserve* you!  It's obvious what the Flame of Anor is, it is the Flame of the Sun, but what does fire produce? Light! Where does a Balrog live? Dark! How did Gandalf make the Balrog fall down into the abyss? He flashed him!  It's like when you can't see for half a second after a camera shot with a flash in the dark. It is also supposed that Gandalf killed the Balrog with a bit of lightning, same as he did to the Nazgûl on Weathertop. The Flame of Anor is likely to be the light of the Sun, in my eyes anyway. The Secret Fire to me has already been explained many times.


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## Persephone

I make him look extra cool!!!   

No but I think it made his power over fire even more potent. I could be wrong though. But I believe it has the same effect as the other rings of power; Galadriel's Nenya is for water, Elrond's Vilya is for Air, and Gandalf's Narya is for fire.


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## Gothmog

Úlairi, I thank you for your well presented answer. I have only one small point of disagreement.


> Well, in answer to Gothmog, mightiest of the Valaraukar , I would indeed say that if Anor was a reference to the Sun, then Gandalf too, would be the wielder of the 'Dark Fire' that he refers to the Balrog as.


While I agree with your point that Melkor had marred the light of the Sun and the Moon, he had not corrupted them to evil. It is true the light of the Sun is not the "Pure" light of Laurelin because of Melkor yet it is still the most pure form of that light with the exeption of the Silmarils. 
To claim from this marring of the Sun that Gandalf was also a wielder of the 'Dark Fire' would be to say that All Arda was Evil. This we know to be untrue as all Arda is only Tainted By Melkor. There is still far more good in Arda than Evil.


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## Eledhwen

Úlairi is right of course. All three Elven rings were made from the substance of Arda marred by Elves of Arda Marred. It seems unlikely to me that Narya could be the flame of Anor, not least because it is 'wielded' - a word more associated with offensive weaponry than preserving power. I believe the secret fire and the flame or Anor are connected; flame issues from fire. If Gandalf's white flashy moments are a weapon from the secret fire, then the Balrog is history. See the first chapter of John's Gospel for some interesting stuff on light versus darkness.


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## Úlairi

Eledwhen, good answer. 



Gothmog said:


> Úlairi, I thank you for your well presented answer. I have only one small point of disagreement.While I agree with your point that Melkor had marred the light of the Sun and the Moon, he had not corrupted them to evil. It is true the light of the Sun is not the "Pure" light of Laurelin because of Melkor yet it is still the most pure form of that light with the exeption of the Silmarils.
> To claim from this marring of the Sun that Gandalf was also a wielder of the 'Dark Fire' would be to say that All Arda was Evil. This we know to be untrue as all Arda is only Tainted By Melkor. There is still far more good in Arda than Evil.



All Arda is fundamentally 'tainted' and therefore has 'evil aspects'. The very idea of the Three (i.e. their preservational powers) was against the will of the Valar, the Elves were attempting to stop the days of their 'waning', which is against Eru's plan and therefore (in a way) sinful. I was proving a point through contradiction. I said that Gandalf could not be wielding Narya in reference to what he said, but it must be the light of the Sun. Now, that too is essentially 'marred', but it still is essentially 'good' also. You see, (even though I disagree in some ways), Free Will (in a sense) is still fundamentally operable within 'Arda Marred', and therefore someone can use something that is 'marred' and make it into something beautiful. Númenor, the island of bliss for Men was still fundamentally 'Arda Marred', but was beautiful nevertheless. Galadriel, fairest and wisest of all Elves, her _hröa_ was essentially 'marred', but was still considered beautiful. The only problem is, being 'marred', it can be turned to the purposes of evil, so, in a sense, Free Will is even more operable within these circumstances.  However, if this were true, then Narya also could be referred to as the Flame of Anor. So, I propose that CT was wrong in his choice of the creation of the Sun and the Moon. If you read the version of the making of the Sun and the Moon and the Two Trees, I daresay 'The Flame of Anor' could indeed be considered pure. But perhaps the 'Flame of Anor' could indeed be a reference to Gandalf's own power. He is a pure Angelic being (although his _hröa_ too, is essentially 'marred'), the light that he could be wielding is light that he possessed from the very beginning i.e. 'intrinsic power'. He was revealing himself in a form of majesty, as the Ainur were not 'marred' unless they were incarnate, and even then they could choose to leave that form. The Valar all had raiments, the 'Clothes of Ilúvatar', and therefore were never 'marred', by the substance of the earth that Melkor had disseminated his power into. Hope that helps Gothmog and Anc.


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## Eledhwen

... and there is always the free will to give up free will, which would be the outcome of, say, Galadriel or Gandalf accepting the One Ring. I think Gandalf prevailed against the Balrog because Gandalf's power came from without (the secret fire, which is with Iluvatar) whereas the Balrog's power was cut off from its source (Morgoth, weakened and banished).

I am interested that the Elves 'became aware of him' when Sauron put on the One Ring, and that the Men and Dwarves apparently did not. I have to put this down to the fact that the rings of power made by and in co-operation with Sauron were also imbued with a power to deceive the wearer. The Elven rings of course would not possess this feature, and seem to have had the opposite effect - the reading of hearts and minds and the revealing of deception.


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## Úlairi

Eledhwen said:


> ... and there is always the free will to give up free will, which would be the outcome of, say, Galadriel or Gandalf accepting the One Ring. I think Gandalf prevailed against the Balrog because Gandalf's power came from without (the secret fire, which is with Iluvatar) whereas the Balrog's power was cut off from its source (Morgoth, weakened and banished).



Perhaps, but if that were the case then there should have been no contest. I would daresay that the 'marring' of Gandalf's incarnate body was also essentially diminishing Gandalf's ability to display his angelic power. But, I believe it would have more to do with Gandalf's own inherent power, than that of Ilúvatar, although that's where his (and the Balrogs) inherent power came from. 



Eledwhen said:


> I am interested that the Elves 'became aware of him' when Sauron put on the One Ring, and that the Men and Dwarves apparently did not. I have to put this down to the fact that the rings of power made by and in co-operation with Sauron were also imbued with a power to deceive the wearer. The Elven rings of course would not possess this feature, and seem to have had the opposite effect - the reading of hearts and minds and the revealing of deception.



Answer is simple, the Men and the Dwarves hadn't received their Rings (from Sauron) yet.


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## Gothmog

Úlairi. Thanks for the explanation. I agree with your comments about the whole of Arda being 'Tainted', including the Sun. My problem was only with what seemed to be an over-emphasis of the marring of the Sun. There are, as you say, 'Evil Aspects' in everything in Arda so even something made with the best of intentions can still be turned to evil.

As for your idea that The Flame of Anor 'could be a reference to Gandalf's own power.' I am unsure of this. However, I will have to give it more thought before I can discuss it.


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## Úlairi

Gothmog said:


> Úlairi. Thanks for the explanation. I agree with your comments about the whole of Arda being 'Tainted', including the Sun. My problem was only with what seemed to be an over-emphasis of the marring of the Sun. There are, as you say, 'Evil Aspects' in everything in Arda so even something made with the best of intentions can still be turned to evil.



Well, the Elves probably had good intentions of self-preservation, but that was turned to evil. There are many instances where we can see that.



Gothmog said:


> As for your idea that The Flame of Anor 'could be a reference to Gandalf's own power.' I am unsure of this. However, I will have to give it more thought before I can discuss it.



Well, if it were to make a good argument, I would indeed say it would be Gandalf's own power (and not the light of the Sun, unless we were to apply the version of _Of the Sun and the Moon_ from _Myths Transformed_, which I got confused with the real version. ), as that would be inherently good and not 'tainted'.


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## Eledhwen

Úlairi said:


> Perhaps, but if that were the case then there should have been no contest. I would daresay that the 'marring' of Gandalf's incarnate body was also essentially diminishing Gandalf's ability to display his angelic power. But, I believe it would have more to do with Gandalf's own inherent power, than that of Ilúvatar, although that's where his (and the Balrogs) inherent power came from.


Yes, he was tired, and had already been challenged in a non-fire spell-battle. However, I do not think the fire was inherent, as it was 'with Iluvatar' (Ainulindale) and Gandalf was its servant. It may, however, have been indwelling. If it was inherent, it would not have been possible to revoke Saruman's power (assuming his power was of the same nature as Gandalf's).





> Answer is simple, the Men and the Dwarves hadn't received their Rings (from Sauron) yet.


Oh, I see!


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## Úlairi

Eledhwen said:


> Yes, he was tired, and had already been challenged in a non-fire spell-battle. However, I do not think the fire was inherent, as it was 'with Iluvatar' (Ainulindale) and Gandalf was its servant. It may, however, have been indwelling. If it was inherent, it would not have been possible to revoke Saruman's power (assuming his power was of the same nature as Gandalf's).





> _The Silmarillion: Ainulindalë: The Music of the Ainur_
> *"Then Ilúvatar said to them: 'Of the theme that I have declared to you, I will now that ye make in harmony together a Great Music. And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices, if he will.'"*



I believe this suggests that the powers inherent to every Ainur is of course 'kindled by the Flame Imperishable', so, Gandalf is talking about the Flame of the Flame Imperishable. 



> _The Silmarillion: Ainulindalë: The Music of the Ainur_
> *"'And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be the heart of the World,...'"*





> _The Silmarillion: Ainulindalë: The Music of the Ainur_
> *"Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Ilúvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Ilúvatar and descended into it. But this condition Ilúvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs. And therefore they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World."*



Well, I hope the works of Tolkien clarifies that one for you! 



Eledwhen said:


> Oh, I see!



Good, then that's all done!


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