# What Would Have Happened if the Sons of Feanor Broke Their Oath?



## baragund (Jul 11, 2008)

Iluin and Gothmog, this little exchange has me wondering why Maedhros and Maglor did not just go ahead and break their oath to regain the Silmarils. What would have happened if they did? Would they have been struck by lightning or something? If that indeed would have been the case, I would have considered it a better outcome than yet another senseless slaughter of your kin and allies if I were them. They even acknowledged the loathing in their hearts before the last Kinslaying. Makes you wonder why they didn't just fall on their swords.

Maybe we should start a separate thread for this...


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## Gothmog (Jul 11, 2008)

*Re: Most upsetting incident in Quenta Silmarillion*

An interesting question. Indeed, Maglor would have renounced his oath and taken the consequences. However, I agree this is probably better tackled in a seperate thread.


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## Illuin (Jul 11, 2008)

*Re: Most upsetting incident in Quenta Silmarillion*



> From Baragund
> _"Iluin and Gothmog, this little exchange has me wondering why Maedhros and Maglor did not just go ahead and break their oath to regain the Silmarils. What would have happened if they did? Would they have been struck by lightning or something?"_


 
The way I have always looked at this originates from the unimaginable magnitude and majesty of the the _Two Trees_. There are so many references regarding those who have seen_ "*The Light of The Trees*_”. _The Sun_, obviously representing _*The Sun*_ we now soak up every day in the real world is just a mere resuscitated flower of the dead tree Laurelin. The Sun (and Tolkien was well aware of _the science_) is an immense nuclear furnace 93 million miles from Earth. If that was a mere “_dying flower_” of Laurelin…what must have been the beauty of _The Silmarils_? The whole of the history concerning the First Age is almost entirely focused on the lust to possess these Silmarils, which contain the only remaining pure, unblemished light of the Two Trees. Thinking of the mind-boggling power of _The Sun_ and the vastness of the Solar System, these Trees must have indeed been stunning beyond our comprehension. This enormous star we call _“The Sun”_ which has the ability to burn our skin from 150 million kilometers away is just a mere peep at the light of _The Trees_ (and is said to pale in comparison to the light contained within _The Silmarils_). Given the relative scope of this, I believe it’s possible to at least begin to understand Maedhros and Maglor; even though their morals were somewhat revolting.


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## Prince of Cats (Jul 13, 2008)

*Re: Most upsetting incident in Quenta Silmarillion*



baragund said:


> Iluin and Gothmog, this little exchange has me wondering why Maedhros and Maglor did not just go ahead and break their oath to regain the Silmarils



Probably ... ding ding ding - Pride. And also not wanting to accept the terrible fate they and their father brought upon all existence. Imagine the denial you'd need after the kinslaying, not to mention later deeds


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## Burzum (Oct 20, 2008)

The people who broke their oath sworn to Isildur were cursed to become undeads. And Feanor's Oath is a much more serious matter. I don't exactly know what would have happened, but I think it is reasonable to assume that the "punishment" would have been something worse than turning into undeads.


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## baragund (Oct 20, 2008)

Good points, Burzum and Prince of Cats. But if one were to accept that Maglor and Maedhros were fundamentally good people, they would recognize that whatever punishment awaited them as individuals was a small price to pay to stop the incredibly self-destructive actions that were dictated by their oaths.


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## Illuin (Oct 20, 2008)

> by Burzum
> _The people who broke their oath sworn to Isildur were cursed to become undeads. And Feanor's Oath is a much more serious matter. I don't exactly know what would have happened, but I think it is reasonable to assume that the "punishment" would have been something worse than turning into undeads._


 

Well, since the oath was quite senseless to begin with, and assuming Eru has a wee bit of common sense and compassion; my guess is that the creator of Eä and Arda was probably up there saying;_ "Yes, for Eru's sake; please…..break your foolish oath you idiots; your punishment will be far more severe if you don’t!"_


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## Bucky (Oct 20, 2008)

And Feanor's Oath is a much more serious matter. I don't exactly know what would have happened, but I think it is reasonable to assume that the "punishment" would have been something worse than turning into undeads. 

*Two different situations. The 'King of the Dead and Company' were not Undead - the Nazgul were. They were ghosts who could not rest.

Secondly, they had been cursed to never rest by Isildur until they fulfilled their oathes because Isildur saw prophetically that 'This war would last for years beyond measure" (whatever he exactly called them) 

Now, Feanor & sons call 'the everlasting darkness' on themselves if they break the oath.

I guess perhaps they might end up in the Void upon death?
BUT, could they over ride the fate of Elves that Eru had laid out for Elves?
I doubt that.....*


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## Illuin (Oct 20, 2008)

> from Bucky
> _Now, Feanor & sons call 'the everlasting darkness' on themselves if they break the oath._
> 
> _I guess perhaps they might end up in the Void upon death?_


 
Well, like I hinted before; Eru’s thinking is a bit more advanced than Fëanor & sons. Just because Fëanor & sons call “The Everlasting Darkness” on themselves, doesn’t mean Eru will listen to them. The oath may have meant something to Fëanor; but do you think Eru really cared about it? I seriously doubt it. From a sensible point of view; I think Eru would have preferred a breaking of the oath, rather than witness the carnage and death that very oath brought about. Hmm, let’s see; what deserves a greater punishment; breaking a senseless oath I care nothing about; or the murder of hundreds of my children by a couple of ignorant knuckleheads?


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## YayGollum (Oct 20, 2008)

Hey, I thought that you were some kind of fan of the idea that everybody has all kinds of creepy powers, but they just don't know how to employ them. Isildur's curse was enforced via Isildur's will. Whoever took the the oath that would curse them was also enforced by them. Eternal darkness could mean different things to different oath-takers. What Eru would have preferred has nothing to do with it, and even if he'd step down from his obviously untrue position that everything that happens is how he planned it, I doubt that he'd care enough about the fates of a few particular elves. He raised no fuss about Mandos taking Luthien's fate into his own hands. 

Also, Maglor and Maedhros are of the ilk of awesome legendary type hero figures. Whether they're mostly good or mostly evil, they come equipped with awesome as well as legendary type and heroic levels of stubbornness, by definition, to create tragedy.


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## Burzum (Oct 20, 2008)

Ah, I wasn't sure if the curse was enforced by Isildur's will.

But if that's the case, who would be able to enforce Feanor's oath? It was not sworn directly between two parties; one party simply declared it by themselves, though they invoked the name of some others.

On the point of why Maedhros didn't break the oath: I think there really wasn't a choice. To make a poor analogy, if you value keeping promises very highly (which I assume most noble people in Arda did), you would not be able to easily break a _very serious_ promise you had made with your friend even if it turns out to be detrimental to the society. And multiply that by a thousand, since this matter is much more fateful than most things that can happen in the real world.

Breaking the oath would have certainly been a better act from a moralistic standpoint, but morality is not what everybody is primarily driven by; and keeping the promise, while commonly associated with suuch traits as morality and honor, can also stand as a trait of its own - much more so in the world of Arda in which words were not exactly taken lightly.


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## Illuin (Oct 20, 2008)

> by YayGollum
> _Hey, I thought that you were some kind of fan of the idea that everybody has all kinds of creepy powers, but they just don't know how to employ them_


 
No worries Yay; as far as storytelling, I savor the horror; and I promise not to disappoint in the upcoming RPGs. But the subject of this thread has been about logic and common sense; a reality thing. It is about good ol’ horse sense; and I haven't witnessed any of that yet here .


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## Alcuin (Jan 19, 2009)

Here is the terrible Oath of Fëanor as presented in _Lays of Beleriand_:


> Be he foe or friend, be he foul or clean,
> brood of Morgoth or bright Vala,
> Elda or Maia or Aftercomer,
> Man yet unborn upon Middle-earth,
> ...


First of all, at best the Oath borders on blasphemy by calling Eru as witness; but it also calls as witnesses Manwë and Varda. I think Manwë and Varda would certainly have sought dispensation from Eru to undo the Oath! Maglor, I think, was right to break the Oath and suffer the consequences: “the everlasting Darkness” indeed awaited them, but as he said, less evil would there be in the breaking than in the keeping of the Oath.

I believe the Oath comes from the evil wrought by Morgoth upon Fëanor, fueling his pride and – it would seem – a considerable degree of paranoia: Fëanor believed (wrongly) that Fingolfin sought to supplant him in their father’s heart and inheritance; he believed that everyone was out to rob him (he built a fortress at Formenos: from whom was he defending himself?); he readily (and eagerly) believed the Valar were imprisoning the Eldar in Eldamar; he burned the ships of the Teleri to prevent anyone from deserting, killing his son Amras in the process.

But a tree is known by its fruit: the Oath produced evil fruit. There were three Kinslayings by the Noldor: the Teleri at Alqualondë, the ruin of Doriath, and the assault upon the Mouths of Sirion; then there are the murders of the guards by Maedhros and Maglor, a fourth Kinslaying; and there was the permanent distrust between the sons of Fëanor and their followers and the rest of the Eldar of Beleriand. Finally, I think that the ill will of Celegorm and Curufin is related to the terrible Oath, first in their betrayal of Finrod and Orodreth at Nargothrond, and then in their attempt first to kidnap Lúthien and murder Beren; as well as the famed ill temper of Caranthir the Dark. 

Again I say, Maglor was right, and had his brother Maedhros followed his counsel rather than seeking to fulfill the Oath, I believe both would have been released from it. From _The Silmarillion_, “Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath”:


> Maedhros and Maglor ... sent a message therefore to Eönwë, bidding him yield up [noparse][the Silmarils][/noparse].
> 
> But Eönwë answered that the right to the work of their father, which the sons of Fëanor formerly possessed, had now perished, because of their many and merciless deeds, being blinded by their oath, and most of all because of their slaying of Dior and the assault upon the Havens. The light of the Silmarils should go now into the West, whence it came in the beginning; and to Valinor must Maedhros and Maglor return, and there abide the judgment of the Valar...
> 
> ...


They had committed “many and merciless deeds, being *blinded by their oath*”, the worst of which were the Kinslayings in Beleriand. I read the clear implication that the Oath of Fëanor fed those ruthless murders of Elf by Elf, the worst crimes of all the Noldor, falling upon the innocent, particularly when they needed one another and could not spare the loss: it was not only evil, it was senseless and ultimately self-defeating. (Such is the nature of evil: it is always madness in the long run.) “[noparse][T][/noparse]o Valinor must Maedhros and Maglor return, and there abide the judgment of the Valar...” That judgment might have been heavy, but would also have been wise and merciful, I believe. Maedhros rejected it outright; Maglor wandered upon the shores of Middle-earth in alone in grief: he seems to have lost his sanity in his despair.


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## Tyelkormo (Jan 19, 2009)

Alcuin said:


> That judgment might have been heavy, but would also have been wise and merciful, I believe. Maedhros rejected it outright; Maglor wandered upon the shores of Middle-earth in alone in grief: he seems to have lost his sanity in his despair.


 
I disagree to some extent with your arguments. First of all, the Valar were far from wise in their dealings with the Elves - Tolkien himself said they erred in this respect - so to count on their being "wise and merciful" is a bit of a stretch. I fully agree that the oath was null and void at the time of the War of Wrath, but there was little that Maglor and Maedhros could do to be sure of that.

A key point, however, since you use the term murder, however, is that aside from the killing of the guards, the kinslayings were battles, and battles which resulted from the Feanorians asking for something which was denied to them. The possessiveness on the other side was just as strong. While it could be argued that they had no claim to the ships of the Teleri, this doesn't change that they were denied help and the Teleri were as unwilling to part with their creations as Feanor was with his. Even worse, in Beleriand, they asked for the Silmaril to be returned to them, which was denied despite warnings. This is not to say "they deserved it" but rather that the responsibility is far from one-sided. 

In the end, however, the attack on the Havens resulted in Elwing reuniting with Earendil, thus permitting him to reach Valinor and finally get the Valar to get their act together and move against Morgoth. Personally, I believe that the motive illustrates a couple of points by Eru from the Ainulindale and related points Tolkien makes. Evil deeds will in the end not prevail but actually lead to the affirmation of good - and in the long run, no one will thwart Erus plans. And in the end, I believe the same holds true for the entire rebellion of the Noldor.


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## Aredhel Alatàr (Mar 18, 2010)

I don't think it was pride that kept them from trying to regain their freedom from their oath. By then, they were broken; and yet bound to their words. They called every power in Arda to be witness to their resolve, carried it forth for centuries, felt its weight every day...Maedhros tried repeatedly to make it less bloody, but always failed. Accepting judgement would mean denying the terrible legacy of his father, and making the death of all his siblings pointless. Also, he fears that breaking the oath would cause him to commit further evil in Aman. The chase for the Silmarils, with all the consequences it brought, was the reason that ruled his life. When it comes to simply giving it up and saying 'I beg for forgiveness', everything would become meaningless. So he rather chooses death.

Maglor would have probably gone to Valinor; but seeing his last surviving brother acting like this, his will is definitely broken, his sanity shattered, and he is lost. Maedhros binds Maglor to this decision; and, given his personality and history, Maedhros could not act otherwise. He knew that submitting to judgement would not ease his grief, only make it worse.

Aredhel


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## Elf of cave (Mar 19, 2010)

I think the reason Maedhros and Maglor (or any of the sons of Fëanor for that matter – not including Amras if one prefer PoMe) did not try to be released from their oath essentially was a question of consciousness.

When a person, who is not evil of nature, commits deeds such as the Kinslaying at Alqualondë, it will weigh so heavily on that person’s consciousness that he/she has essentially two choices: 1) go mad with regret and grief, or 2) harden one’s heart and forsake the conditions of morality and autonomy by developing a notion that permits/justifies one’s actions – in this case the oath.

The sons of Fëanor chose the second, though eventually Maglor and Maedhros realised that the oath did not justify their evil deeds and the madness of grief took over. Maglor realised this before his brother, and so their fate differed: one lived on and one died. After the Third Kinslaying Maglor realises that not even the oath can outweigh the sorrow of having killed his own kin, and therefore his conviction begins to slowly fall a part. Whereas Maedhros realisation, when the Silmaril burns his hand, is so sudden and swift that he cannot endure it so he takes his own life.

I think their real problem was that they knew they could not bear the guilt of the evil deeds they committed, so they tried very hard to convince themselves that what they did was justified: they were forced to uphold their oath because if they didn’t, they would be condemned to Everlasting Darkness – that they failed to realise until too late, that their actions were as likely to condemn them to that end as surely as breaking the oath (though in truth, neither the Valar or Eru likely held them to an evil oath sworn in madness in the first place).

And they never tried to be released from their oath. Maedhros argues that they could never reach Eru and beg release, but Eru did speak with the Valar and especially Manwë took council with him, so his argument is very poor. 

If the sons of Fëanor had really wished to be released from their oath they certainly would have tried, but none did. Then it is no longer a question whether to uphold or break the oath but a matter of consciousness. So were back to the essential choices: go mad with regret or develop convictions that justify one’s actions.

The danger of choosing the second is that if your conviction falters just one bit the grief over your actions will be overwhelming. So naturally the sons of Fëanor convinced themselves that they could never be released from their oath and that they had no choice but to try and fulfil it. Essentially poor excuses for making poor choices that resulted in evil deeds.



> A key point, however, since you use the term murder, however, is that aside from the killing of the guards, the kinslayings were battles, and battles which resulted from the Feanorians asking for something which was denied to them. The possessiveness on the other side was just as strong. While it could be argued that they had no claim to the ships of the Teleri, this doesn't change that they were denied help and the Teleri were as unwilling to part with their creations as Feanor was with his.



If someone came up to you and asked for/demanded your beloved car, which you had build from scratch, because he wanted to chase after the thief who had taken his iPod, would you just give it to him? And if upon refusing him, would you find it acceptable that he then took your car by force? Does the end justify the means? 



> Even worse, in Beleriand, they asked for the Silmaril to be returned to them, which was denied despite warnings. This is not to say "they deserved it" but rather that the responsibility is far from one-sided.



I disagree with you. The sons of Fëanor were quite content to let their oath rest for as long as the Silmarils were with Morgoth (and one with Beren and Lúthien). If fulfilling the oath meant so much to them, they would have attempted the feat of Beren long before Bëor entered Beleriand.


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## Aredhel Alatàr (Mar 20, 2010)

Elf of cave, your reasoning is very interesting (and, to a point, I agree with it), but there is one thing I do not share. Maedhros did try repeatedly to go back from the road of slaying and evil, arguing with his brothers against the use of violence; truly, when overruled he did fight with them, so he bears responsibility all the same, but the fact remains that he tried. That goes clearly to show he knew perfectly well that bloodshed wasn't justified (so he hadn't 'hardened his heart' to it, as you put it) but neither had he gone mad with grief.

He really considered himself bound to his oath, and all that the oath stood for: the death of his father, of five of his brothers, and his own life-long misery. In the face of such a weight, coldly reasoning whether or not the Valar could reach Eru is impossible, and every argument is really just a screen to a resolve made by years and years of following the same path. I doubt that if Manwë himself had come to assure him he was not held to his oath he would have yielded. At the end of the War of Wrath, Maedhros is doomed. 

Aredhel


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## Elf of cave (Mar 20, 2010)

> Maedhros did try repeatedly to go back from the road of slaying and evil, arguing with his brothers against the use of violence; truly, when overruled he did fight with them, so he bears responsibility all the same, but the fact remains that he tried.



I mostly agree with you Aredhel because I think what you say confirms my point. Yes, Maedhros did try not to do evil, but why did he not seek to be released from the evil oath instead? If they knew it would come to violence why did he and his brothers attack Doriath and Sirion when Morgoth still held two Silmarils? Why did he cling to an oath he admits to have sworn in madness? Why did he stubbornly believe that he could never be released from it despite having never attempted to find out? If they could put their oath on hold when Morgoth held all three Silmarils why could they not do the same for their kindred?



> That goes clearly to show he knew perfectly well that bloodshed wasn't justified (so he hadn't 'hardened his heart' to it, as you put it) but neither had he gone mad with grief.



Here is were I disagree with you because the sons of Fëanor did justify the kinslaying with the fact that they were bound by their oath. You see it all three times: they ask/demand for something and upon being refused, use the oath to justify the use of force to try and regain it. 



> He really considered himself bound to his oath, and all that the oath stood for: the death of his father, of five of his brothers, and his own life-long misery. In the face of such a weight, coldly reasoning whether or not the Valar could reach Eru is impossible, and every argument is really just a screen to a resolve made by years and years of following the same path. I doubt that if Manwë himself had come to assure him he was not held to his oath he would have yielded. At the end of the War of Wrath, Maedhros is doomed.



Exactly. And my point is that this resolve stems from at some point having made the essential choice of either regret one’s actions or attempt to justify them so that the guilt doesn’t eat you up. I think the sons of Fëanor have much in common with some of the people responsible for the Holocaust – most of the people who committed those horrible crimes were not simple evil, or psychopathic, or hateful of the Jews – they were (frightingly) normal people who were forced to come to terms with the things they saw and did, and they did that by convincing themselves, that what they did, was the right thing (though in truth it went against their moral code) – and even had it not been, it was their duty and they had no choice but to follow orders. 

I think the same is true for the sons of Fëanor. At some point after Alqualondë, when the initial fury had died down, they would have had to come to terms with having taken innocent lives, and this is when the oath became the justification of their actions. Regret may have lurked close to the surface of their consciousness, but it was never allowed to take over, held firmly in place by their conviction: they had sworn an oath which (in their minds) had left them with no choice. But for the oath to remain a firm conviction they also had to convince themselves that they could never be released from it. 

That is why, in the end, when the Silmaril burns his hand that Maedhros despairs, because he finally realises that his firmly held conviction is fallacious and only grief and regret over his actions is left. 

That is how I see it


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## Aredhel Alatàr (Mar 20, 2010)

I will mostly agree with you for what concerns Caranthir and Curufin, Celegorm and the twins. Interesting concept, that of the paragon with the Nazis, and to a certain extent quite true. Especially Caranthir's speech about attacking Doriath, thus causing the Second Kinslaying, goes to show the extent of self convincement.

However my opinion of Maglor is that it was his brother that always tied him to his actions (his end show that) and for Maedhros my idea that he did consider the oath unbreakable (perhaps also the fact that he was his father's eldest and heir bound him to it especially) stands.

Well, my opinion. It's fantastic that there are so many. 

Aredhel


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## Astrance (Mar 20, 2010)

Congratulations, Elf of cave and Aredhel, you both win a Godwin point !


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## ltnjmy (Mar 22, 2010)

Aredhel Alatàr said:


> I will mostly agree with you for what concerns Caranthir and Curufin, Celegorm and the twins. Interesting concept, that of the paragon with the Nazis, and to a certain extent quite true. Especially Caranthir's speech about attacking Doriath, thus causing the Second Kinslaying, goes to show the extent of self convincement.Aredhel


 
Dear Elf of Cave & Aredhel Alatar:

Your postings regarding this interesting topic were fantastic. Thanks so much !


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## Aredhel Alatàr (Mar 22, 2010)

Glad to have made a contribution...

Aredhel *blushing all over*


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## Elf of cave (Mar 23, 2010)

Yes, thank you very much


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## Bucky (Mar 31, 2010)

Alcuin said:


> Here is the terrible Oath of Fëanor as presented in _Lays of Beleriand_:
> First of all, at best the Oath borders on blasphemy by calling Eru as witness;



*Isn't it kind of like folks always saying these days "I swear to god"? *


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## Drashkael (Oct 13, 2018)

baragund said:


> What would have happened if they did?



The way I see it, the Oath bound their will in a way to that of the Fate of the Silmarils.
Meaning they couldn't have broken their oath, even if they wanted to, the same way that Gollum wouldn't have been able to willingly renounce the One Ring.

The Silmarils were the Rings of the First Age, only more powerful and more cursed from being raped by Morgoth (ie. being set in his Iron Crown). For the Feanorians, they were their "precious" jewels.


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