# Flat Characters?



## Firawyn (Jun 2, 2008)

I recently created a RP character who is the illegitimate son of Lord Elrond -and someone (you know who you are!) made a comment saying how it was interesting to see some not so perfect light shed on Lord Elrond. I replied - 



> I always though Elrond needed some dirt in his family history...he's such an egotistical elf.


 (better?)

Anyway, that person suggested I start a thread on the topic, so here it is. I really think the Lord Elrond is, in literary terms, a flat character. It occurred to me that Elrond is not the only flat character in Tolkien's works, nay every good story has flat characters - they're necessary really.


So I thought this thread could be a discussion/debate on who are the flat characters in Tolkien's works, and why you think so. I'll start with Elrond:

I think he's a flat character because throughout LotR he is always somber, never happy or sad; he's always doing the right thing, never succumbing to greed or temptation or lust; etc. 

Thoughts?

Fir-



(Better, Gothmog? Sorry about that, what some consider foul is common language for others. Perhaps that thread aught to be more specific)


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## Prince of Cats (Jun 2, 2008)

Well ...

Not many are older than him and probably knows better than to misspeak. 

Did anyone ever have to go to the bathroom in Middle Earth? That to me seems like a missing dimension. Maybe if Elrond had IBS he would seem more personable


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## Confusticated (Jun 2, 2008)

I agree he seems flat. But I am curious where you get the idea he is egotistical? This is something I never noticed about Elrond.



Prince of Cats said:


> Maybe if Elrond had IBS he would seem more personable


 Maybe that is why Gandalf is always coming and going?


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## Elf of cave (Jun 2, 2008)

I don’t think any of Tolkien’s characters are flat. I agree that if you simply plough your way through the books then most of the characters will seem completely one-dimensional. But if you stop to think every once in a while and try to analyse the characters and look at them in a bigger perspective than simply the here-and-now, you notice that there are so much more to the characters than what there seems to be at first sight.

Now concerning Elrond I must disagree with you. You base your view off the character exclusively from how he is portrayed in LotR. The LotR is written primarily from Frodo’s perspective and he barely has any interaction with Elrond, so we never get to know what’s going on inside Elrond’s mind. 

You say he’s sombre all the time, but he doesn’t seem very sombre when he presents Frodo to Bilbo in the evening before the council. 

He’s never sad – how do you know that? He certainly must have been sad after he parted with Arwen in Edoras. No it doesn’t say directly in the text that Elrond was sad, but do we really need to be told that? We know from the Appendix that Elrond was grieved when he learned of Arwen’s choice – a choice that would separate them even beyond the end of the world. We know from the same Appendix that the parting of Elrond and Arwen was considered among the most grievous sorrows in the Third Age. So why wouldn’t Elrond have been sad?

He’s never happy - is there any reason he should be? To quote Tolkien: 



> “But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or, if they remained, to become mortal and to die in Middle-earth. For Elrond, therefore, all chances of the War of the Ring were fraught with sorrow.”



So whether they win or lose, Elrond’s children will be lost to him (Of cause we don’t know for certain the choice of Elladan and Elrohir, but we do know that they did not leave with their father). 

So there is no happy ending for Elrond in Middle-earth, and understanding the depth of Elrond’s loss is important if you want to understand his character.



> he's always doing the right thing, never succumbing to greed or temptation or lust; etc.



Does he? Yes perhaps around the War of the Ring he did, but he was a very old and very experienced person at that time – and counted as one of the wise. But we know next to nothing about him in the First and the Second Age. We’re not told anything about what kind of person Elrond was when younger – he could have been arrogant, greedy or completely irresponsible for all we know – but we do know that in the Third Age he has been shaped into powerful, kind, wise and respected Elf Lord. How he came to be that way is left to our own imagination.

If you mean sexual lust then it seems quite natural that Elrond didn’t succumb to it, since Elves have great control of their bodies and desires. Of cause being Half-Elven Elrond may have inherited some human traits and have less control, but since extra-marital and premarital sex is unthinkable, and adultery unheard off, among Elves it seems very unlikely that Elrond would engage in another relationship than with Celebrían.

Now where can I find that story of yours? - I love reading fanfiction


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## Confusticated (Jun 2, 2008)

I don't disagree with you. It is the portrayal of him that seems flat. Of course there is more to him than what we directly see. The same could be said of other characters, especially elves.


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## Prince of Cats (Jun 2, 2008)

Nóm said:


> I agree he seems flat. But I am curious where you get the idea he is egotistical? This is something I never noticed about Elrond.
> 
> Maybe that is why Gandalf is always coming and going?



For his own nature or to avoid Elrond's? 

OK, enough poo-poo talk


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## ltas (Jun 2, 2008)

Unless you consider their backstories in First or Second Age (or Appendices), most of the 'higher' elves seem rather pale in Lord of the Rings. They step on the stage to give their blessing to the mission, then exit left.

Now Arwen, it would have been nice if she would have been drawn out a bit at least in the appendices. If you consider the exceptional path she chose, it really would have been nice to learn at least a few more indications about her in additon to 'she chose to depart soon after Aragorn'.


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## Gothmog (Jun 3, 2008)

Prince of Cats said:


> OK, enough poo-poo talk



Yes, quite enough. Please be careful about what you post.

Thanks.
Gothmog


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## Gothmog (Jun 3, 2008)

Thank you Fir. Much better.



> Perhaps that thread aught to be more specific



I wish it could be. But there is no definitive statement of what exactly is 'Foul Language'. In fact I would have been inclined to allow the first word I edited, as it was used correctly, had it not been for the second word.


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## Firawyn (Jun 3, 2008)

Firstly, I will admit, I'm basing my position here mostly from LotR, because that's the one I find most interesting of all Tolkien's work. You know, I believe that while it's great to have add ons and appendixes to great series, I think one should be able to read the original work and be satisfied with the development of the characters. That's a mark of a good writer; and especially since Tolkien had no idea his other Middle Earth books would ever be published, I think its fair to judge characters who appear in Lord of the Rings, strictly on what we see in Lord of the Rings.

Now, I find Elrond egotistical (again, coming from the Lord of the Rings only view) because of his manner throughout the books. He always had this air of superiority, which is really seen in The Council of Elrond chapter. _I_ will decide what we're going to do with the Ring. _I_ will have the final say on who is going to take the Ring to Mordor. _I_ was there with Isildur. _I, I, I, I!_ He always acted as though he knew what was best, oh wise old elf. My experience is "wisdom comes with experience" (and I'm sure Elrond had plenty of experience - though it was not reflected in LotR), not age. There could have easily been somebody else in Rivendell who had a better idea. I know that we've all asked that as well. I've seen several threads that say "why didn't they just get the eagles to fly the Ring into Mordor?" - Well why? My point here is, Elrond took charge, as a result of the word _I_. 

To answer Elf of Cave, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall anywhere in Elrond's parts of the book saying "Elrond said happily", or "Elrond was saddened by..." It's all open to interpretation, the reader (you in this case) sees more expression of emotion than the writer ever added.


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## YayGollum (Jun 3, 2008)

Well, as a matter of course, I could hypothesize that Elrond was overjoyed when he concluded that, yes, his only daughter was actually going through with a marriage to some pathetic human. He didn't really wish to stick around to look at her abnormally rounded ears after her most probably painful transformation from elf to human, but he was glad that he wouldn't have to listen to her whining about getting seasick on the boat to Valinor or having allergies to all of the exotic plants and animal dander in Valinor. 

But I would more realistically agree with what this Elf of cave (which cave? Argh! Why don't I know?) person is writing about. My thoughts on the subject of Elrond's flatness ---> My craving for all questions answered leads me to come up with all kinds of crazy conclusions. Some of those are for what particular characters were like on their less adventurous days. Sure, he wasn't particularly dramatic. Not like he was in that The Lord Of The Rings The Return Of The King movie, hiding that sword, then whipping it out, attempting to inject more weight than the moment deserved. I could only think of the guy proclaiming, "Your Chicken Marsala!"  

He was the warrior scholar guy, with more emphasis on the scholar bit. He studied all kinds of stuff. He told people, "Shut up! Yeah, I'm studying moon runes! So what if nobody ever uses the things? It's cool!" then try to cut off a laugh after a geekish snort was emitted. In the Hall Of Fire, he mostly watched, but, every now and then, he'd be prodded into doing one of his old comedy routines. He was the dry sort, with only a bit of sarcasm. His most requested routines were his subtly lewd bits on his time in the army, but he very studiously developed new ones, too. Yes, Elrond was an elf and was therefore inherently arrogant. Comparatively, yes, he had decent reasons for being more arrogant than your average elf, but he wasn't too bad. Could have been much worse.

Another dry character ---> Nori (or was it Nora? Only Dwarves can tell their males from their females. Well, Aule probably can, too, but nobody else. These were a bunch of homeless Dwarves from important families. They wanted their mountain back. These were the only Dwarves they could scrounge. They'd happily take females with them. They'd want to keep track of them, anyways. She didn't talk much, unfortunately.


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## Turgon (Jun 3, 2008)

I don't really see where you are coming from with this egotism thing Firawyn. 

The Council of Elrond was just that - people had come from all over Middle Earth to seek _his_ council. So of course he is going to give _his_ views. At the time of this most important of meetings Elrond is standing as leader of all the free peoples of Middle-earth, it is his wisdom that everything will hinge upon. And let's face it - he _was_ there with Isildur and knew his folly full well. Anyway... Elrond's treatment of Bilbo leads me to think he was actually quite a humble fellow.

Elrond took charge because that's what people _wanted_ him to do. That's why they travelled from places as distant as Gondor, Mithlond and Erebor... to get his advice. 

As for his character being flat - I don't see that either. In fact I quite like Elrond - maybe because I see him still in his Hobbit persona - the guy reading moon runes in Rivendell. I think little is flat in Tolkien's books if you think things through a little. Just because Tolkien's characters aren't self-obsessed doesn't make them less interesting - quite the opposite to me.


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## Firawyn (Jun 5, 2008)

Turgon said:


> I don't really see where you are coming from with this egotism thing Firawyn.
> 
> The Council of Elrond was just that - people had come from all over Middle Earth to seek _his_ council. So of course he is going to give _his_ views. At the time of this most important of meetings Elrond is standing as leader of all the free peoples of Middle-earth, it is his wisdom that everything will hinge upon. And let's face it - he _was_ there with Isildur and knew his folly full well. Anyway... Elrond's treatment of Bilbo leads me to think he was actually quite a humble fellow.
> 
> ...



Turgan - I never said I didn't like Elrond, quite the contrary actually. I'm quite fond of him. 

Now, let me ask you this (and I must say I'm not trying to start a debate here I'm just using an example) If Elrond was a modern man, and he was a drug lord, instead of an elf lord, people from all over would still want to come to see him, and seek his goods (be it council or drugs). BUT- does that mean that his council (or drugs) are good for the seekers? I'm not trying to dramatize this, but how can you assume that Elrond's wisdom was the best thing for the people of Middle Earth?

As far as him being flat or not - that is entirely a matter of opinion (yours and mine respectively), and I will let it rest at that.


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## HLGStrider (Jun 5, 2008)

Well, the guy's wife was kidnapped, tormented, and traumatized to the extent that she left behind husband and three children to get away from it all . . . I might be a little grim too if that happened in my family.

Elves have a certain distance too them in my interpretation of the work, due mainly to their age though the fact that they are slowly detaching themselves from Middle Earth also has a lot to do with it, sort of like Monks longing for the divine so deeply that they withdraw from the earthly, including other humans. Age, however, is I think the main factor. When you live that long and see that much a little bit of detachment is normal. 

That said there is a lot of character and I would say lack of detachment in his sons who seem, from what little we know of them, vibrant and determined sorts, set on avenging their mother's ills. He also raised a daughter with a mind of her own, and while he set a harsh standard for the man she loved, he allowed a union that obviously went against his desires. I see this as graciousness and understanding. Elrond is one of the most likable father figures in a mismatched love story. Compare Thingol. Compare Lord Capulet. Compare the Larrabee family in Sabrina . . . ok, now I'm stretching. 

I know you're not accusing Elrond of anything (though I think considering what we know about his family life the illegitimate son angel IS out of character . . . sure the guy might've been lonely after Celebrian took flight, but even what we know about Elrond aside, Elves in general are obsessively monogamous), but I think that for a non-lead character he's pretty well filled out. After all, Elrond has very little "Screen Time" in the Lord of the Rings. If you were listing the characters in order of importance he would come in maybe twelfth. . . 13th . . .14th . . . let me try (For ease not counting bad guys)

Frodo
(Gandalf
Aragorn
Gollum . . . debatable whether Gollum should come before Aragorn but Aragorn could possibly come before Gandalf . .. . these three are tied in my mind, honestly.) 
Sam
Boromir (high on the list because his actions enable Frodo and Sam's flight)
Pippin/Merry
Gimli/Legolas (pretty much interchangable)
Eowyn
Faramir
Theoden 
Denethor 

This is getting obsessive . . . but I think I made my point. Elrond is nice and necessary, but he aint getting his name in big flashing lights on a billboard.


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## HLGStrider (Jun 6, 2008)

Prince of Cats said:


> Well ...
> 
> Not many are older than him and probably knows better than to misspeak.
> 
> Did anyone ever have to go to the bathroom in Middle Earth? That to me seems like a missing dimension. Maybe if Elrond had IBS he would seem more personable



Why does this come up every time we get into realism? Seriously, how many GOOD books really deal with this aspect at all (I can think of a handful, I'll admit, but more often then not there isn't a reason for this subject to come up in storytelling.)? For goodness sake, do you want EVERY detail on paper?  A lot of people already complain that the books are too long (not my personal complaint, but it's been said). Let's rewrite a paragraph to "Frodo on the fifth day woke up at five am, blinked his eyes, ate one piece of lembas bread, chewed it three hundred times, walked twice around the camp to stretch his legs. Then he drank from his canteen. Finding this to slate his thirst, he yawned, stretched . . .." 

No one records every detail of everything the hero did. In a good story only the actions necessary for plot or character development will be recorded at all. Anything else, no matter how well written, is padding that will probably be cut by the editor anyway. 

"So I shall just tell you the nice, interesting parts--and in between you will understand that we had our meals and got up and went to bed, dull things like that. It would be sickening to write all that down, though of course it happens. I said so to Albert-next-door's uncle, who writes books, and he said, 'Quite right, that's what we call selection, a necessity of true art.' And he is very clever indeed. So you see." 

I'll give a big online hug and 70 Elgee points to anyone who can guess where that came from without Googling it. (Elgee points are redeemable for Elgee Kudos . . . don't worry, I'm keeping track)

OH, thought I'd add that there are of course exceptions to the "only what is absolutely necessary" rule, in fact most books will have exceptions to make room for what is poetic or funny or entertaining. However, when it comes down to it, the majority of this should be done in a way that helps the story along, not as an aside. Have the character trip over his feet and land face first in a banana cream pie while chasing after the villain, not in a whole chapter devoted purely to the pie in the face routine. I'm full of bad examples tonight, aren't I?


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## Confusticated (Jun 6, 2008)

I don't think Elrond's services should be likened to those of a drug dealer. That is more in line with what Sauron offers.

Sure Elrond was capable of error. He offered council but council isn't always perfect. In the case of Elrond he was willing to differ to others, like trusting to the hobbits' friendship as Gandalf said. He did this even though his heart was against it. A decision that proved necessary to the defeat of Sauron and success of Frodo's quest. Elrond was open to hearing others out, he did not foolishly assume he always knew everything.

All around he meant well, and operated under the interest of the greater good. Drug dealers only know greed, and they facilitate the ruin and families by destroying individuals and vital relationships - and break down of society through crime.

You go to a dealer because you are addicted, slave to the drug and dealer, and doing so only hurts you in every case. You go for council from the wise because you yourself recognize the value of expanding your own knowledge in order to make the best decision based on the most facts, and doing so usually helps don't it?


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## Elf of cave (Jun 6, 2008)

> To answer Elf of Cave, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall anywhere in Elrond's parts of the book saying "Elrond said happily", or "Elrond was saddened by..." It's all open to interpretation, the reader (you in this case) sees more expression of emotion than the writer ever added.



Yes it’s my interpretation, but it’s interpretation that is based on Tolkien’s own writings, and deducing knowledge about interpreting human emotions. 

_



When Elrond learned the choice of his daughter, he was silent, though his heart was grieved and found the doom long feared none the easier to endure.
[RotK, Appendix A]

Click to expand...

_
So Elrond was saddened about Arwen’s choice, like any normal father would be, so why wouldn’t he be even sadder in RotK when he’s about to be separated from his daughter till beyond the end of the world? It’s a bit like having a loved one who is deathly ill; you know it would be for the best to end the person’s suffering, and when the person finally has peace it doesn’t really lessen the pain of loss. 

Besides there are places in the book telling that give us some hints on Elrond’s feelings/mood.

_



"But what would happen, if the Ruling Ring were destroyed, as you counsel? asked Gloin. We know not for certain, answered Elrond sadly. Some hope that the Three Rings, which Sauron has never touched, would then become free, and their rulers might heal the hurts of the world that he has wrought. But maybe when the One has gone, the Three will fail, and many fair things will fade and be forgotten. That is my belief."
[FotR, The Council of Elrond]

Elrond went forward and stood beside the silent figure. 'Awake, little master!' he said with a smile.
[FotR, Many Meetings]

Elrond laughed. "He shall be found," he said.
[FotR, Many Meetings]

"None here can do so," said Elrond gravely.
[FotR, The Council of Elrond]

Click to expand...

_


> You know, I believe that while it's great to have add ons and appendixes to great series, I think one should be able to read the original work and be satisfied with the development of the characters. That's a mark of a good writer; and especially since Tolkien had no idea his other Middle Earth books would ever be published, I think its fair to judge characters who appear in Lord of the Rings, strictly on what we see in Lord of the Rings.



But Tolkien wasn’t just writing a series of fictions; he was writing a mythology, and mythologies have a different purpose and are written in a different style than fiction. Apart from that Tolkien had worked on his legendarium for around forty years, and in LotR it really shines through that much of the history, that leads up to the time LotR takes place, where already written. This is what sets apart Tolkien’s books from other fantasy novels.

Besides it was always Tolkien’s intention to have The Silmarillion published, and the only reason he wrote LotR was because the publisher asked him to, and by the time it was finished he greatly desired to have it published together with The Silmarillion and LotR. 




> Now, I find Elrond egotistical (again, coming from the Lord of the Rings only view) because of his manner throughout the books. He always had this air of superiority, which is really seen in The Council of Elrond chapter. I will decide what we're going to do with the Ring. I will have the final say on who is going to take the Ring to Mordor. I was there with Isildur. I, I, I, I! He always acted as though he knew what was best, oh wise old elf. My experience is "wisdom comes with experience" (and I'm sure Elrond had plenty of experience - though it was not reflected in LotR), not age. There could have easily been somebody else in Rivendell who had a better idea. I know that we've all asked that as well. I've seen several threads that say "why didn't they just get the eagles to fly the Ring into Mordor?" - Well why? My point here is, Elrond took charge, as a result of the word I.



I think you get this all wrong. You make it sound like Elrond just told everybody to shut up and then told them what were to be done. 

As Turgon already mentioned, people came from all over Middle-earth to get his council, and Elrond clearly states at the beginning at the Council that they are gathered so they can come up with a solution together. 

_



"...that is the purpose for which you are called hither. Called I say, though I have not called you to me, strangers from distant lands. You have come and are here met, in this very nick of time, by chance it would seem. Yet it is not so. Believe rather that it is so ordered that we, who sit here, and none others, must now find council for the peril of the world. " [LotR, The Council of Elrond].

Click to expand...

_
Elrond took charge because he was the only one who knew the full story of the Ring, and understood just how dangerous it was. So naturally he had much to say on the subject. Yes, he had decided long before the council that he wanted the Ring destroyed, but he still listened to the suggestions made by others, and the members of the Council discussed back and forward what to do. In the end they agreed that the only course of action to save Middle-earth was to destroy the Ring.

"why didn't they just get the eagles to fly the Ring into Mordor?" Perhaps because of the same reason they did’t just send it across the sea. The Ring belonged to Middle-earth – it’s their problem to deal with. And though the Eagles live in Middle-earth they are first and foremost the messengers of Manwë and therefore subjected to Valinor – not Middle-earth – so the Ring is not their problem either.

Elrond wanted them to take the hardest path because Sauron did not expect them to do so; and it therefore warranted the greatest chance of success. And once again the Council agreed to this. And yes Elrond did choose the members of the fellowship, but both Gandalf and Aragorn had a saying in that matter as well.


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