# The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power – Teaser Trailer



## Erestor Arcamen (Feb 13, 2022)




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## MrDanZa (Feb 13, 2022)

Left a lot to be desired but it definitely didn't look *bad*


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## CirdanLinweilin (Feb 13, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


>


I mean, it *looks pretty*.....


CL


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## Halasían (Feb 13, 2022)

Looked pretty good. I was 'whelmed' ... not over, not under.
A LOT of ignorance being displayed over on the IMDB fecebook page. 🤣


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## CirdanLinweilin (Feb 13, 2022)

Halasían said:


> I was 'whelmed


**DC References Intensify**

XD XD
CL


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## Starbrow (Feb 13, 2022)

I like the visuals. We'll have to see about the stories.


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## Halasían (Feb 14, 2022)

I had to crack up at this video. I'm assuming, but am not sure, that the one behind the twitter account is the guy who runs The One Ring.com Forum (of which I achieved a 'lifetime ban' from in 2003). The hatred runs deep in this 'Bounding into Comics' youtube guy. 🤣


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## Aldarion (Feb 14, 2022)

One minute trailer, and it is more than clear that the entire series will be one very deliberate dump on Tolkien's work and legacy.


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## m4r35n357 (Feb 14, 2022)

Is there still anyone on this forum who thinks a _First Age_ adaptation would be a good thing?


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## Elthir (Feb 14, 2022)

m4r35n357 said:


> Is there still anyone on this forum who thinks a _First Age_ adaptation would be a good thing?



*If* entirely done by me (with Amazonian money). . . then yes,* I* think so  

I'd do the tale of *Túrin*.


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## Ealdwyn (Feb 14, 2022)

Elthir said:


> *If* entirely done by me (with Amazonian money). . . then yes,* I* think so
> 
> I'd do the tale of *Túrin*.


I'd watch that 😍



CirdanLinweilin said:


> I mean, it *looks pretty*.....
> 
> 
> CL


Agreed.

But it doesn't look like any Tolkien I've ever read


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## Ealdwyn (Feb 14, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


>


Check out the comments on this. Every single individual replies with Tolkien's own quote:
“Evil is not able to create anything new, it can only corrupt and ruin what has been invented or made by the forces of good”

Never has that been more appropriate than when it applies to Amazon


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## m4r35n357 (Feb 14, 2022)

Elthir said:


> *If* entirely done by me (with Amazonian money). . . then yes,* I* think so
> 
> I'd do the tale of *Túrin*.


Well I really meant the whole thing as "binge meat", but I would agree that is one story that is probably the appropriate length for a film . . . !!!

And good luck pitching incest to Amazon


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## Ealdwyn (Feb 14, 2022)

m4r35n357 said:


> And good luck pitching incest to Amazon


After Game of Thrones, I don't think that would be a sticking point


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## m4r35n357 (Feb 14, 2022)

Shows how much I know then


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## Elthir (Feb 14, 2022)

Oh. By the way I didn't mean Amazon's money . . . rather "Amazonian" money as in "a lot" (of money).

Anyway, *my* cinematic version of Túrin's tale would only incorporate _one_ *slight* change!

spoiler alert
.
.
.
.
.
Galadriel kills Glaurung

**


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## Ealdwyn (Feb 14, 2022)

Elthir said:


> Galadriel kills Glaurung
> 
> **


WHAT?????


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 14, 2022)

Darn -- I gave in again! 😅


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## Olorgando (Feb 14, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> Elthir said:
> 
> 
> > Anyway, *my* cinematic version of Túrin's tale would only incorporate _one_ *slight* change!
> ...


Well, considering how she dealt with Sauron in PJ's "The Hobbit", Glaurung should be a piece of cake.
I mean, Glaurung causes most of his mischief through hypnosis.
Now with Galadriel, he bites of _much_ more than he can chew - *she* hypnotizes *him*!
Has him run up to the edge of some 1,000-foot cliff (I'm sure there were some in or around Beleriand), jumps off flapping his front legs yelling "I can fly!"

SPLAT!

And there's a nice tie-in: when Morgoth gets the news, he mutters "I _knew_ that design had a weakness." It gives him the idea for Ancalagon & Co.!
Nice ironic twist to that, don't you think?


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## Elthir (Feb 14, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> . . . Glaurung should be a piece of cake.



Mmmm. Cake.


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## Ealdwyn (Feb 14, 2022)

Elthir said:


> Mmmm. Cake.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 14, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> Well, considering how she dealt with Sauron in PJ's "The Hobbit", Glaurung should be a piece of cake.
> I mean, Glaurung causes most of his mischief through hypnosis.
> Now with Galadriel, he bites of _much_ more than he can chew - *she* hypnotizes *him*!
> Has him run up to the edge of some 1,000-foot cliff (I'm sure there were some in or around Beleriand), jump off flapping his front legs yelling "I can fly!"
> ...


You think that's something, do you?
Hold my beer:







Also: Cake!


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## Olorgando (Feb 14, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Hold my beer:


*Elf* Sauron?!? Methinks these people need a refresher course in "Middle-earth 101". 🥴


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 14, 2022)

And that was the only "non-canon" part? 🤣


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## Olorgando (Feb 14, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> And that was the only "non-canon" part? 🤣


The non-canon list would probably take me at least ten times the clip's running time to type out.
I'll do the easy, short part:
Sauron once did take a humanoid form that wasn't ugly.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 14, 2022)

True.
But how about Shelob? 😄


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## Olorgando (Feb 14, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> True.
> But how about Shelob? 😄


Couldn't tell for sure if she had eight legs in spider form ... 😩


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## Radaghast (Feb 14, 2022)

I'm not going to watch this. There is not nearly enough material (particularly dialogue) to support a movie, let alone eight seasons of a TV show.

(I also plan to cancel Prime after Season 4 of _The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel_)


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## ArnorianRanger (Feb 14, 2022)

The Balrog of Amazon has met it's match in the fanbase of Tolkien that are the keepers of the Flame of Anor...

"You shall not have likes!"

Thanks,

AR


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## CirdanLinweilin (Feb 14, 2022)

Firinne Gile said:


> I don't know about you, but I think it was a bad idea for Amazon to release this video in the anti-dislike era.
> 
> https://boundingintocomics.com/2022/02/ ... r-tolkien/
> 
> ...


Ooooooof that’s a ratio
CL


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## Halasían (Feb 14, 2022)

Elthir said:


> Oh. By the way I didn't mean Amazon's money . . . rather "Amazonian" money as in "a lot" (of money).
> 
> Anyway, *my* cinematic version of Túrin's tale would only incorporate _one_ *slight* change!
> 
> ...


Good. You're keeping the full 'Game of Thrones' sex scene between Turin and his sister... 🤣


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## ZehnWaters (Feb 15, 2022)

Firinne Gile said:


> I don't know about you, but I think it was a bad idea for Amazon to release this video in the anti-dislike era.
> 
> https://boundingintocomics.com/2022/02/ ... r-tolkien/
> 
> ...


Oh hey, Clownfish TV; I love those guys.


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## Ealdwyn (Feb 15, 2022)

I'm very proud of the Tolkien fanbase


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 15, 2022)

That seems an overreaction to a TV show.


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## Ealdwyn (Feb 16, 2022)

It's nothing quite so sinister. Amaz*n is trying to use the popularity of LotR for financial gain, to make Amaz*n's shareholders a shed load of money, and they don't care whose legacy they trample on in order to do it. It's greed, pure and simple. Secondly, Amaz*n is trying to use the popularity of LotR to soften its image and increase its popularity. RoP could be a huge soft power win for them.

The irony is that it's not the making of RoP that's the worse thing Amaz*n does.

Let's not forget that:

Amaz*n systematically discriminates against Black employees, female employees, and especially Black women, including denying them promotions and failing to address a toxic work environment where racist and misogynistic comments and harassment frequently go unchecked, even when reported to human resources (Vox, King5, Reuters). Amaz*n faces multiple lawsuits from employees who experienced racist and sexist discrimination (USA Today, The Hill).


Amaz*n has repeatedly sold anti-Semitic materials—including merchandise that explicitly promotes Nazi ideology and books that promote Holocaust denial—and only removed the items from their store after waves of criticism from human rights groups (LA Times, New York Times, Washington Post). This has happened multiple times since at least 2008, and has happened as recently as 2020 (ProPublica).


Amaz*n profits from the forced labor of Uighurs in China and has ties to a Chinese company that is directly involved in the Chinese Government’s ongoing genocide against the Uighur people (ASPI, LA Times, The Hill).


Amaz*n profits from the surveillance and criminalization of immigrant communities and the militarization of the US-Mexico border, including by supplying facial recognition technology to US law enforcement that helps ICE and the Department of Homeland Security track and detain immigrants (ACLU, The Guardian, AFSC).


Amaz*n routinely forces its employees to work in unsafe conditions, sometimes resulting in injury or death—in December, Amaz*n’s refusal to let employees evacuate a warehouse during a tornado led to six workers dying when the building collapsed (KDSK). During the filming of The Rings of Power, at least three stunt workers were seriously injured after their concerns about safety standards were not met (NZ Herald).


Amaz*n has made coordinated efforts to prevent its employees from unionizing, including threatening them with reprisal, threatening them with loss of employment, and using surveillance to prevent and deter union activities (The Guardian, The New York Times, CNBC, Business Insider).


Amaz*n’s COVID-19 policies have harmed workers, including by failing to provide adequate protection in warehouses,denying workers sick leave, and retaliating against workers who spoke out (The Guardian). After Amaz*n received negative press because of this, its public relations team sent scripted statements to nearly a dozen US news outlets portraying Amaz*n’s COVID-19 response in a favorable light—and the statements were aired (The Guardian, The Verge).


Amaz*n has a huge carbon footprint that has been growing every year, along with the waste it generates, even as Amaz*n tries to portray itself as environmentally friendly (AP News, CNBC, Forbes). Amaz*n is among several top companies that exaggerate their efforts to combat climate change and cut their own environmental impacts (BBC). In addition, Amaz*n sells books that promote climate change denial, which are boosted by its own algorithms (LA Times).


Amaz*n has paid a fraction of the taxes that it should have paid over the past ten years, allowing it to become even richer and more powerful; Amaz*n has also been found to be the worst offender for tax evasion among other similar large corporations (The Guardian). Amaz*n made record-breaking profits in 2020, but avoided paying $2.3 billion in federal taxes (ITEP).

Amaz*n is trying to claim that fans are objecting to the show because they are racist. It's true that a lot of racists are whining about diversity in Middle-earth, which has made other people, who _want _diversity, want to support the show [this same thing happened with Amaz*n’s Wheel of Time show].
I want more diversity too, but it’s not that simple. Amaz*n isn’t committed to diversity—they’re just selling the aesthetic of it. Amaz*n has been found to systematically discriminate against Black and female employees and has done nothing about a company culture rife with harassment.

They’re not the good guys here. Amaz*n is iterally using the show to sanitize its image.


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## m4r35n357 (Feb 16, 2022)

Firinne Gile said:


> 3) and most importantly, introduce the person who was the reason for it all “protection” in production. The one who waits to show himself to the world, creating expectation, like an unholy child waiting to be born and who will drastically change the modern culture after the end of this show.


??????????????????????????


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## Ealdwyn (Feb 16, 2022)

Firinne Gile said:


> If that were the biggest problem it would be "fine". They don't care so much about money that they are causing this division among Tolkien fans and losing a large audience for wanting to include political agenda. It's not about money.


If I understand correctly, you think that division among Tolkien fans is a bigger problem than all those other things Amaz*n is responsible for?
I think a sense of persepective is required.

And there is no political agenda - did you even read my post? 
Amaz*n don't care about diversity. It's a PR exercise.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 16, 2022)

People, the project is clearly going to arouse strong reactions, but TTF has rules, some of which have been pushed to the breaking point here. EA's had to lock one thread already; let's try not to add any more to the list.








✅ The Rules Thread


Welcome to TTF! We want our community to keep growing and for everyone to enjoy discussing and chatting openly with one another. With this being said, we need to ensure that our site continues to run smoothly and that it remains a friendly, comfortable space for our users; so we have devised a...




www.thetolkienforum.com


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## Annatar (Feb 16, 2022)

Firinne Gile said:


> This show has three main goals: 1) to mock Tolkien’s work and his own person. “Tolkien is dead, let’s dance on his grave”



That reminds me that the series will start on September 2nd.
That's the anniversary of Tolkien's death. 
Coincidence?


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## HaradrimTheHorrible (Feb 16, 2022)

Annatar said:


> That reminds me that the series will start on September 2nd.
> That's the anniversary of Tolkien's death.
> Coincidence?


This is such a ridiculous take.


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## Annatar (Feb 16, 2022)

Firinne Gile said:


> And yes, they pretend to care about diversity, but that's just the excuse they'll use to ban Tolkien's books in the future for racism.



I can't imagine that. If anything, some passages will be censored and rewritten.

Something similar has already happened in Germany: There was a new, but very bad translation adapted to modern language. This has also caused a lot of discussion in the community. In the meantime, this version has been revised again, and the worst parts have been undone.

Therefore it is always good to have physical copies of your "precious". Who knows how long this version will be available?



Ealdwyn said:


> It's nothing quite so sinister. Amaz*n is trying to use the popularity of LotR for financial gain, to make Amaz*n's shareholders a shed load of money, and they don't care whose legacy they trample on in order to do it. It's greed, pure and simple.



I agree with that in part. 
But what I find a bit strange is that Amazon has an absurdly high budget for the series. So why can't or won't they afford showrunners and writers who have already proven that they are really good and up to the task? These two hipsters JD Payne and P. McKay have never been able to prove that they are worthy for the realization of such an important material.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 16, 2022)

Annatar said:


> If anything, some passages will be censored and rewritten.


That is unlikely-- vanishing point unlikely.

This is not to say translations won't differ-- but that's been going on since first publication.


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## Olorgando (Feb 16, 2022)

Annatar said:


> Something similar has already happened in Germany: There was a new, but very bad translation adapted to modern language. This has also caused a lot of discussion in the community. In the meantime, this version has been revised again, and the worst parts have been undone.


Yes, that version by Wolfgang Krege published in 2000 (and revised by the publishers in 2012). Apparently he also did something similar to his 1998 translation of "The Hobbit" - trying to be funnier than the original and geared more to a grownup readership, according to the critique.
For LoTR, Krege tried to correct one difficulty in the original translation of 1969/70 by Margaret Carroux (the poems were handled by another translator), in that the wide range of speaking styles of the original were not represented adequately in that translation - definitely a difficult proposition, in any case. Unfortunately Krege chose the German current at the time of his translation, the 1990's, as his jump-off point - a bad idea. But I must also fault the authors of the German Wikipedia articles on the matter if they mean to imply that JRRT wrote as was common in England of the (thirties and) forties (perhaps except for the Orcs ...). At least in the aspect of language JRRT was *not* a writer of his generation; in other aspects, as Verlyn Flieger, Tom Shippey and others have noted, he very much was a modern (not modern*ist*, as I've mentioned before) writer, specifically a post-WW I writer.


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## Annatar (Feb 16, 2022)

May I introduce: The REAL trailer:


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## Thorin (Feb 16, 2022)

Unlike LoTR and The Hobbit, there just isn't enough material we know about in the 2nd Age that would cause us to react too negatively to extra fluff that is put in there. My concern is that the stuff we DO know about will not be treated with respect to the source material. Hopefully what we know about Celebrimbor, Numenor and Sauron as it was in the 2nd age, will be treated with the sanctity it deserves. And perhaps I might be alone in this...but considering how the MCU did so fantastically in de-aging actors to their prime, I would have liked to see Cate Blanchett and Hugo Weaving reprise their roles and just de-age them a bit. I'm not overly keen on two new actors playing the characters but I guess it is to be expected.


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## Halasían (Feb 16, 2022)

> Annatar said: _"I can't imagine that. If anything, some passages will be censored and rewritten."_



Just like Peter Jackson did with The Lord of the Rings.



> Annatar said: _"But what I find a bit strange is that Amazon has an absurdly high budget for the series. So why can't or won't they afford showrunners and writers who have already proven that they are really good and up to the task? These two hipsters JD Payne and P. McKay have never been able to prove that they are worthy for the realization of such an important material."_



Like who? Peter Jackson, Fran Walsh, and Phillipa Boyens?
 🤣  



> Thorin said: _"Unlike LoTR and The Hobbit, there just isn't enough material we know about in the 2nd Age that would cause us to react too negatively to extra fluff that is put in there. My concern is that the stuff we DO know about will not be treated with respect to the source material. Hopefully what we know about Celebrimbor, Numenor and Sauron as it was in the 2nd age, will be treated with the sanctity it deserves.'_



Thanks for a common sense-ish post here! I agree, and after there are a few episodes watched, we will have a better reference to decide how it will work out. I however don't agree with your thoughts on the de-aging CGI of the old Peter Jackson actors though.


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## Annatar (Feb 17, 2022)

Halasían said:


> Like who? Peter Jackson, Fran Walsh, and Phillipa Boyens?



I was very critical of PJ's film version back in the day, but compared to this abomination, the old films seem downright masterpieces.


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## Olorgando (Feb 17, 2022)

Annatar said:


> I was very critical of PJ's film version back in the day, but compared to this abomination, the old films seem downright masterpieces.


Not sure that it's a comforting thought to us book nerds, but PJ's LoTR trilogy of 2001-03 may have been the high point of Middle-earth filming, large screen or small.


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## Halasían (Feb 17, 2022)

Annatar said:


> I was very critical of PJ's film version back in the day, but compared to this abomination, the old films seem downright masterpieces.


Well, PJ cast the mold for making wholesale changes to Tolkien's work for the screen... and he had a complete story to make changes to.


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## Annatar (Feb 17, 2022)

Halasían said:


> Well, PJ cast the mold for making wholesale changes to Tolkien's work for the screen... and he had a complete story to make changes to.



Don't forget Ralph Bakshi and his Butterfly-Balrog. 🦋


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 17, 2022)

In that case, don't forget Rankin-Bass Gollum.


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## Olorgando (Feb 17, 2022)

Annatar said:


> Halasían said:
> 
> 
> > Well, PJ cast the mold for making wholesale changes to Tolkien's work for the screen... and he had a complete story to make changes to.
> ...





Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> In that case, don't forget Rankin-Bass Gollum.


As is known by now, personal memory can be highly selective ... 🤫


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 17, 2022)

Annatar said:


> I was very critical of PJ's film version back in the day, but compared to this abomination, the old films seem downright masterpieces.


I'm reminded of an old regional joke:

Q. How many Virginians does it take to change a light bulb?

A. Three. One to change the bulb, and two to talk about how much better the old one was.


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## Olorgando (Feb 17, 2022)

Firinne Gile said:


> It was the last point. The rest that come cannot even be considered Middle-earth. Just some ill-intentioned analogy.


That film-makers are faced with an almost impossible task in converting books to film does not surprise me - at least when the filming of a book series does not overlap with the writing of the books. This overlap was the case with J.K. Rowling's "Harry Potter" series, and with G.R.R. Martin's "A Song of Ice and Fire" series, which got the title of Martin's first book of that series when brought to the (small) screen as "Game of Thrones" by HBO.

The hard fact is that books and films each have their own strengths and weaknesses. No book can match the visuals of a film shot (though a still picture that does not haste on to the next gaga thrill as the filmmakers seem to think necessary might be better); no film (especially viewed in a cinema - having a DVD that you can rewind is a slightly different matter) can catch the nuances of language, or pretty much anything that needs a slow build-up, that a book can. I've gotten sick of Peter Jackson and others trying to explain the "needs of the film medium". which turn out to be perhaps needs of the director, here Jackson, or needs assumed by a much more pathetic sector of humanity, film producers.

I'll drag up my favorite epithet for this bunch, the "cookie cutter". Gotta have this, gotta have that - and "the audience wants this!" Problem is, from what I've read about this bunch (in books by / about people who have suffered from their incomprehension) is that if there is one thing they lack, it is the slightest respect for their audience, their customers. Maybe because they're always trying to go for that lowest 5% (or whatever the percentage may be) of trolls. This might be analogous to what I dimly remember of my time in a US high school 1970-73. There were at least the courses that were considered honors courses, only by taking which you could get the maximum score for your grade-point-average, 5.0. Perfect score in a *non*-honors course only got you a 4.5 (as did less than perfect scores in an honors course). What may have existed *two* steps down from that honors course (if it existed) I do not know.

I'll now jump to my US college time. Had a buddy there who might have been a genius at physics. He was taking graduate courses when a sophomore (second of four years of undergraduate study). He had one problem. Our college had a foreign language requirement. That was his extreme weak point, but he just managed to pass.

So let's return to a film theater.
in JRRT's legendarium (and the average film theater), there are Elves, Númenóreans, Dwarves, Rohirrim, Hobbits, Orcs and Trolls.
The problem?
The producers are aiming to get that lowest whatsit (the Trolls) into the cinemas. They're insulting maybe 95% of the remaining audience. But to have a certified blockbuster, sacrifices must be made ... 🤬🤬🤬


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## Olorgando (Feb 17, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I'm reminded of an old regional joke:
> Q. How many Virginians does it take to change a light bulb?
> A. Three. One to change the bulb, and two to talk about how much better the old one was.


Ummmmm ... meaning those other two preferred sitting around in the dark? Why am I not surprised ...


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 17, 2022)

No, that's a Jewish mother joke.
"No, don't mind me, I'll just sit here in the dark".


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## Olorgando (Feb 17, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> No, that's a Jewish mother joke.
> "No, don't mind me, I'll just sit here in the dark".


By the sketches of recent private TV comedians, these jokes have not entirely died out here in Germany ...


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 17, 2022)

Or here in the US, e.g. The Big Bang Theory.


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## Olorgando (Feb 17, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Or here in the US, e.g. The Big Bang Theory.


That was aired here by a private TV channel (not sure how high or low in the hierarchy).
My guess is that they "re-naturalized" this stuff - perhaps without knowing its sources ... it would have been better if these sources could have stayed here ...


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## Halasían (Feb 17, 2022)

Annatar said:


> Don't forget Ralph Bakshi and his Butterfly-Balrog. 🦋


Yeah, as far as visuals. I mean, Robin Hood Aragorn was laughable, but Bakshi didn't really hack the actual story, deleting core aspects while adding crap.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 17, 2022)

Halasían said:


> Robin Hood Aragorn was laughable,


Rankin-Bass version:


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## Annatar (Feb 17, 2022)

Which Elrond do you think is more tolkienish?
(I have unfortunately searched in vain for the Russian Khraniteli-Elrond.)







vs.


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## Halasían (Feb 21, 2022)

Haters gotta hate.  🤣 

I have to admit it is quite entertaining to bop the ant-nest and watch all the 'WOKE criers' get all agitated.


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## m4r35n357 (Feb 22, 2022)

Halasían said:


> Haters gotta hate.  🤣
> 
> I have to admit it is quite entertaining to bop the ant-nest and watch all the 'WOKE criers' get all agitated.


Hey, you dropped the "haters" bomb - you won!!!

Hey, you dropped the "woke" bomb - you won again!!!

Keep up the quality analysis.


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## ZehnWaters (Feb 22, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Rankin-Bass version:
> View attachment 11763


I seriously made this joke when I saw it on TV. Pantsless, Native American Aragorn.


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## Halasían (Feb 22, 2022)

m4r35n357 said:


> Hey, you won!!!




 🤣 

For some *actual* quality analysis...







Edit: it appears this place has become a haven for a certain cult of beliefs, so I'm out. Enjoy your echo chamber.


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## m4r35n357 (Feb 23, 2022)

Halasían said:


> 🤣



Classy, laughing at your own "joke"!

And I can tell the thing is a turkey without consulting "Corey's World", thanks.


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## Ealdwyn (Feb 23, 2022)

Halasían said:


> For some *actual* quality analysis...


This so-called "expert" lost credibility in the first two minutes when he talked about the _Elves_ returning from Valinor at the end of the FA to defeat Morgoth and cast him into the outer darkness. I didn't bother watching any more of it.


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## Annatar (Feb 23, 2022)

In this video, a female(?) dwarf explains why this so-called "Tolkien Professor" is wrong:


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## m4r35n357 (Feb 23, 2022)

Annatar said:


> In this video, a female(?) dwarf explains why this so-called "Tolkien Professor" is wrong:


The "dwarf" says that Amazon only have The Hobbit & LotR (including Appendices) to play with.

Annatar _does not appear_ in the LotR index, but apparently _is_ in the series. The index shows many alternative names for Sauron, but _not_ Annatar.

Celebrimbor has a few mentions, but _not_ his role as Sauron's flag, so they can't have that either 

Hard to see how they can do the 2nd age without access to Akallabeth, and Of the Rings of Power.

Does anyone _really_ know what Amazon have been allowed to use?


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## Ealdwyn (Feb 23, 2022)

m4r35n357 said:


> The "dwarf" says that Amazon only have The Hobbit & LotR (including Appendices) to play with.
> 
> Annatar _does not appear_ in the LotR index, but apparently _is_ in the series. The index shows many alternative names for Sauron, but _not_ Annatar.
> 
> ...


My understanding is that they only have the LotR appendices


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## m4r35n357 (Feb 23, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> My understanding is that they only have the LotR appendices


But they published a map containing Numenor, which is only in Unfinished Tales.

[EDIT] added link


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## Annatar (Feb 23, 2022)

m4r35n357 said:


> Hard to see how they can do the 2nd age without access to Akallabeth, and Of the Rings of Power.



I'm sure that either the meteor-man, the dwarf-princess or the wood-elf will find a solution...


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 23, 2022)

It would be odd if they couldn't say Annatar.

"He's just this guy, you know".

Hey, maybe they can call him Zaphod! 😃


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## Annatar (Feb 23, 2022)

They have again confirmed that they have no rights to the Silmarillion. Very strange.
In the LotR appendices, there are only about five pages on the Second Age, plus the timeline.
You really have to ask what that's all about. 
Why don't they film the parts from the appendices that are described in more detail, such as the fight against the witch-king of Angmar?


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## Erestor Arcamen (Feb 23, 2022)

Here's an article I found on what rights they have. 



> So what did Amazon buy? “We have the rights solely to The Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers, The Return of the King, the appendices, and The Hobbit,” Payne says. “And that is it. We do not have the rights to The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, The History of Middle-earth, or any of those other books.” That takes a huge chunk of lore off the table and has left Tolkien fans wondering how this duo plans to tell a Second Age story without access to those materials. “There’s a version of everything we need for the Second Age in the books we have the rights to,” McKay says. “As long as we’re painting within those lines and not egregiously contradicting something we don’t have the rights to, *there’s a lot of leeway and room to dramatize and tell some of the best stories that [Tolkien] ever came up with.”
> 
> “We took all these little clues and thought of them as stars in the sky that we then connected to write the novel that Tolkien never wrote about the Second Age,” Payne says.* The duo cites songs like “The Fall of Gil-galad” or “The Song of Eärendil” or Fellowship chapters like “The Council of Elrond” and “The Shadow of the Past” or the “Concerning Hobbits” section of the prologue as sources for significant lore dumps. Beyond the premiere, there aren’t, however, any significant time jumps or, thus far, episode-long journeys to the past. The rights to the First Age material from The Silmarillion are still owned by the Tolkien estate.
> 
> “We worked in conjunction with world-renowned Tolkien scholars and the Tolkien estate to make sure that the ways we connected the dots were Tolkienian and gelled with the experts’ and the estate’s understanding of the material,” Payne says.



The bold part are the parts that concern me the most from that quote...


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## Annatar (Feb 23, 2022)

It sounds like they're partially creating a fanfiction-like parallel world to circumvent the rights issue.


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## m4r35n357 (Feb 23, 2022)

Wow, so the slim pickings are even slimmer. Unless they have reneged on the deal, which I suppose can be resolved with an additional payment to the Tolkien Estate . . . or a lawsuit?


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## Erestor Arcamen (Feb 23, 2022)

Yup, I really will just watch it as a separate fantasy series from the books or anything. If it's trash then I'll turn it off.


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## Aldarion (Feb 23, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> This so-called "expert" lost credibility in the first two minutes when he talked about the _Elves_ returning from Valinor at the end of the FA to defeat Morgoth and cast him into the outer darkness. I didn't bother watching any more of it.


Technically, majority of the Valar army at the battle _were _elves, if memory serves me. But main battle strength would have been Valar themselves (even though IIRC only Tulkas was present) and Maiar.


Erestor Arcamen said:


> Here's an article I found on what rights they have.
> 
> 
> 
> The bold part are the parts that concern me the most from that quote...


That is precisely why I believe it will be a failure. Not only do they not have enough source material, but they are so arrogant and full of themselves that they believe it will not cause trouble.


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## Annatar (Feb 23, 2022)

Aldarion said:


> but they are so arrogant and full of themselves that they believe it will not cause trouble.


McKay: “Can we come up with the novel Tolkien never wrote and do it as the mega-event series that could only happen now?”



Firinne Gile said:


> For those who are interested about the video of the "superfans" actors.


Yes, unfortunately I also saw the video a few days ago. This is the most embarrassing and cringe propaganda I have ever seen.


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## Aldarion (Feb 23, 2022)

Firinne Gile said:


> This is very obvious to me. The question is, why so much effort to create something invented with Tolkien's name involved (and still losing customers)? That's what you should think about.


Two reasons: 1) they know that Tolkien's work is popular and they know that it does not follow their ideas, and so want to desecrate it in revenge and 2) they want to use Tolkien's work as a vehicle for their own ideas.


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## Annatar (Feb 23, 2022)

Really a pity, because it had actually started promising with their lovingly designed map and the first picture of Valinor. I still like the pictures of the landscapes and cities. Also, it seemed to me at the beginning - based on the extended map - that they would make use of Harad and Rhun for their forced diversity guidelines: Fanfiction stories could have been established there, but not contradicting the canon and spirit of Tolkien's works. Here one could have shown also very well the relationship between Numenorians and Middle-earth people.

However, I then saw Amazon's rape of "The Wheel of Time", and it was very quickly clear to me that this was their prototype of what they will do to Arda: 
- Totally exaggerated and random diversity quotas that make no sense within the realities of that world.
- Plots reminiscent of moronic teen series.
- Mediocre CGI effects.
- Flat dialogs.
- Strange understanding of feminism.
- The feeling of trash and mediocrity.
- Abstruse plots that unnecessarily deviate from the books.
- No atmosphere, no immersion.
- Questionable costumes.
- Awkward hairstyles that always look freshly styled.
- Boredom.
- Unsympathetic characters.

The book connoisseurs are almost all frustrated and angry, but Amazon doesn't care.
And many of these components can now unfortunately already be seen and felt in the Rings of Power trailer.

Actually, you don't even need to see more than this one stupid picture to know that they are just mocking us:


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## Annatar (Feb 23, 2022)

Firinne Gile said:


> *Maybe he falls in love.*



He falls in love with Celebrimbor. But Celebrimbor is unhappily in love with Galadriel, who in turn has a three-way relationship with Celeborn and Halbrand.
To win Celebrimbor's love, Annatar decides to forge the Master Ring.

Ha! I can do fanfiction too, at least as well as Amazon. 😜


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## Annatar (Feb 23, 2022)

That Celebrimbor was in fact in love with Galadriel (but she did not return his advances) is mentioned in the "Unfinished Tales", at least in one of the many Galadriel versions.
(There's an interesting discussion about this here:
https://www.quora.com/If-Celebrimbor-loved-Galadriel-why-did-he-and-his-Gwaith-i-Mírdain-rebel-against-her-rule-in-Eregion-and-force-her-to-flee-to-the-East )

But who isn't in love with (book-)Galadriel?
So I agree with you that Annatar wants to sleep with her, too. Somehow, though (especially after the "Superfans" video 😹 ), I have a feeling by now that Amazon is going to put some LGBTQ+ stuff in there, too - even more so after I saw Amazon's first season of "Wheel of Time". Perhaps Sauron can also turn into an attractive woman if it helps him with his goals? I'd be surprised if Amazon didn't exploit this option.

When it was announced that Amazon had hired an "intimacy coordinator", the outcry from fans was very loud. Perhaps it wasn't too late then, and the showrunners reacted accordingly: They promised in the Vanity Fair article that there will be no sex scenes like in Game of Thrones.

I'd also say that sex scenes are of course not typical for Tolkien, but in a modern cinematic/TV adaptation I personally - apparently in contrast to many other fans - would not be particularly bothered too much if it was rather subtle and not tastelessly realized. (But it should be known relationships from the books, not some made-up fanfiction-nonsense.) These media are there to visualize what is only hinted at in the books, but without distorting the spirit or meaning of the original.
Difficult subject, and I don't have a final opinion on it yet. For me it depends a lot on the quality of the implementation. In practice, however, you can probably almost only do it wrong. Nevertheless, that would be rather unimportant for me in comparison, as long as they manage to tell exciting and atmospheric stories that at least partially bring the experience of the books to the screen.
What I try to say: A small sex scene doesn't necessarily have to destroy the immersion, if the conditions are right. However, after the trailer and the photos and the rights issue and the arrogant statements of the showrunners, I'm almost sure that Amazon will ruin nearly everything - even without any sex scenes.


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## m4r35n357 (Feb 24, 2022)

Annatar said:


> Yes, unfortunately I also saw the video a few days ago.


Seriously, the whole thing? I lasted about 20 seconds . . .


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## Olorgando (Feb 24, 2022)

m4r35n357 said:


> Annatar said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, unfortunately I also saw the video a few days ago.
> ...


Odd. You're only seven (or six-and-change) years younger than I am. I looked at the whole thing (and that one-minute "teaser"); I guess wizened cynicism is not solely a function of age; just don't ask me to *quote* from it - the only thing that stuck was the comment on the "younger, inexperienced Galadriel" ...
... born in Valinor, saw through Fëanor better than Manwë did, tutored by Melian the Maia in Doriath ...
🤢🤮🤬🤢🤮🤬🤢🤮🤬


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## m4r35n357 (Feb 24, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> Odd. You're only seven (or six-and-change) years younger than I am. I looked at the whole thing (and that one-minute "teaser"); I guess wizened cynicism is not solely a function of age; just don't ask me to *quote* from it - the only thing that stuck was the comment on the "younger, inexperienced Galadriel" ...
> ... born in Valinor, saw through Fëanor better than Manwë did, tutored by Melian the Maia in Doriath ...
> 🤢🤮🤬🤢🤮🤬🤢🤮🤬


I have a cringe threshold, and it is very, very low! I seriously couldn't stand listening one second longer.

In fact, I overestimated; "Sauron is Hot . . . I could 'fix' him" - 7s, "If Middle Earth had a club - 10s, then I hit stop. 

Just to clarify, it is only the Tolkien aspect that makes me cringe, not what they were saying per se! Context is all.
Please don't accuse me of being too "mature"


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## ZehnWaters (Feb 24, 2022)

Annatar said:


> That Celebrimbor was in fact in love with Galadriel (but she did not return his advances) is mentioned in the "Unfinished Tales", at least in one of the many Galadriel versions.
> (There's an interesting discussion about this here:
> https://www.quora.com/If-Celebrimbor-loved-Galadriel-why-did-he-and-his-Gwaith-i-Mírdain-rebel-against-her-rule-in-Eregion-and-force-her-to-flee-to-the-East )


Fëanor's grandson and her half-first-cousin once-removed? Yeah, I can see why she'd be squicked out. Though she has no room to criticize the close familial relationship considering (in some versions) she married her COUSIN. Still, Galadriel was never one to play by social norms that conflicted with what she wanted.


Annatar said:


> Perhaps Sauron can also turn into an attractive woman if it helps him with his goals? I'd be surprised if Amazon didn't exploit this option.


lol Probably. The idea of a trans Ainur makes no sense considering Tolkien's explanation for how they operate (their bodies always match their disposition or "gender identity" to use the modern terminology.


Annatar said:


> What I try to say: A small sex scene doesn't necessarily have to destroy the immersion, if the conditions are right. However, after the trailer and the photos and the rights issue and the arrogant statements of the showrunners, I'm almost sure that Amazon will ruin nearly everything - even without any sex scenes.


Heck even nudity makes sense in some instances (we encounter it in the Silmarillion at least twice (both in regards to Turin's story)). It's a matter of how it's handled.



m4r35n357 said:


> Seriously, the whole thing? I lasted about 20 seconds . . .


I could only make it so far. I had to laugh at the scene of them walking through the smoking ring, though, because there's someone peeing off to the right, in the background (or so it looked like).


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## m4r35n357 (Feb 24, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> I could only make it so far. I had to laugh at the scene of them walking through the smoking ring, though, because there's someone peeing off to the right, in the background (or so it looked like).


Had another go, darting around to various points, maybe 5% of it, but no, not again.

It is _clearly_ made for young children, comes across like the Wonderful World of Disney (yuck). I give up!


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## ZehnWaters (Feb 24, 2022)

m4r35n357 said:


> Had another go, darting around to various points, maybe 5% of it, but no, not again.
> 
> It is _clearly_ made for young children, comes across like the Wonderful World of Disney (yuck). I give up!


WWoD has more dignity than this.


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## Olorgando (Feb 24, 2022)

m4r35n357 said:


> It is _clearly_ made for young children, comes across like the Wonderful World of Disney (yuck). I give up!


That made the term "Mouseketeer" pop up in my mind. But that term belongs to the 1955-59 ABC TV show "The Mickey Mouse Club", which seems to predate any WWoD stuff. The most famous of the "Mouseketeers" would probably be Annette Funicello, who went on to star in some "beach party" films alongside Frankie Avalon in the 1960's.


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## Mr.Underhill (Feb 24, 2022)

Baiting means making outrage for sake of it, which is just cheap hack articles

But gate keep is to preserve the quality of something so that it wont be ruined by activists interms of keeping the source material faithful to the original work of the creator. J.R.R Tolkien and his son did a very good job of preserving it for so long.

Hope there is still fight left.

Looks like fan fiction. On same level of Game of Thrones quality of writing


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## m4r35n357 (Feb 25, 2022)

I suspect we will never find out, but I would be interested to know how many of the actors & production staff have actually even _read_ Lord of the Rings, or any Tolkien whatsoever (I wonder has anyone produced a "novelization" of the Jackson work yet, hehe?). I would guess a very low number, but if someone can prove me wrong go for it!

I simply can't imagine it being part of the job description, why would it be?


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## Annatar (Feb 25, 2022)

m4r35n357 said:


> I would be interested to know how many of the actors & production staff have actually even _read_ Lord of the Rings, or any Tolkien whatsoever


They probably read the summary on Wikipedia and were advised by the "superfans" from that supercringe video...

The immensely high budget is apparently only there to keep the Tolkien Estate quiet.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 25, 2022)

I wonder how many involved with the movies had?


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## m4r35n357 (Feb 25, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I wonder how many involved with the movies had?


I would guess that there were at least _some_. I am pretty sure that Saruman read it, although it must have been hard to see himself written out of the ending!


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 25, 2022)

Yes, I believe Mr. Lee had been reading LOTR every year since it was first published.

I recall some of the other actors talking about reading it for the first time on the plane to New Zealand.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Feb 25, 2022)

Christopher Lee actually met Tolkien, if I remember correctly. He also corrected PJ on what it's like to get stabbed.








That time Christopher Lee taught Peter Jackson the sound a stabbed man makes







www.latimes.com


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## Ealdwyn (Feb 25, 2022)

m4r35n357 said:


> I am pretty sure that Saruman read it, although it must have been hard to see himself written out of the ending!


I seem to recall that Christopher Lee refused to attend the premiere of RotK because he was cut out of it.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 25, 2022)

Good for him! 😄


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## Ealdwyn (Feb 25, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> Christopher Lee actually met Tolkien, if I remember correctly. He also corrected PJ on what it's like to get stabbed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I believe he also starred in over 100 films, which has to be an achievement in itself


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 25, 2022)

You might (ahem) find this of interest:









What book are you reading right now?


Going over my Cthulhu collection for the second time. Just finished one of my favourites, The Mound. Conjures up beautifully grotesque images that I can only describe as Caligula meets Hellraiser. At the Mountains of Madness is next! Lovecraft is often infuriatingly difficult to read (unlike...




www.thetolkienforum.com


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## HALETH✒🗡 (Feb 25, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> Christopher Lee actually met Tolkien, if I remember correctly. He also corrected PJ on what it's like to get stabbed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"Played in a heavy metal band".


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## Annatar (Feb 25, 2022)

m4r35n357 said:


> I have a cringe threshold, and it is very, very low! I seriously couldn't stand listening one second longer.
> 
> In fact, I overestimated; "Sauron is Hot . . . I could 'fix' him" - 7s, "If Middle Earth had a club - 10s, then I hit stop.


Here, someone has taken the trouble to cut the essence together in 80 seconds:






And here someone has analyzed how much the "superfans" have to do with Tolkien. Spoiler: Nothing.


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## m4r35n357 (Feb 25, 2022)

That first (W-bomb) guy gave me the creeps; don't dissent, don't complain, don't be an activist. Oh wait . . . you can complain as much as you like as long as it isn't about anything that matters, like me. Hypocrite!

This should not be turned into passive support for an orcish agenda, there are perfectly good reasons to criticise Amazon, but let's stick to the content eh?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 25, 2022)

Let's try to leave the politics to other sites, eh?


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## Annatar (Feb 25, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Let's try to leave the politics to other sites, eh?



I'm actually also in favor of keeping politics out, and in a forum like this, that's also necessary overall.

Of course, if we want to discuss the series, that can't always work completely, because the main problem with the series is that it's full of current politics, which is now proven not only by the trailer, but also by the "superfan" video.

But I'd also say that this guy Nerdrotic should not be discussed here. I was really only interested in the more or less funny montage at the beginning of the video.
Yes, it may be political too, but I think you can agree here, no matter which political side you personally favor, that it was a lousy and extremely embarrassing propaganda action by Amazon that discredits and mocks all of us Tolkien fans.

Even though I don't really like Peter Jackson's film adaptations, I have to give him credit for his attitude:

"_We made a promise to ourselves at the beginning of the process that *we weren't going to put any of our own politics*, our own messages or our own themes into these movies. ... In a way, we were trying to make these films for him, not for ourselves_." - Peter Jackson

It's a pity that such a neutral and faithful ambition is apparently no longer possible in modern productions...

What is good though, and to an extent I've never seen before, is that fans around the world are joining together to express their disappointment.

The US teaser currently has 103k upvotes and 143k downvotes.
The UK teaser currently has 23k upvotes and 54k downvotes.

That's pretty extreme and should actually set off an alarm at Amazon. However, it's probably already too late now. All they can really do now is try to limit the damage. I wouldn't be surprised if they try everything in the next trailer to appease the book connoisseurs.
But maybe I'm wrong and this is all already factored in and the book connoisseurs or even the Jackson movie fans aren't important enough to make profit? Or - attention, conspiracy theory 😜 - it's not about making profit at all.


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## m4r35n357 (Feb 25, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Let's try to leave the politics to other sites, eh?


That was the point I started out making . . . world events, you know.

I have edited that post.


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## Olorgando (Feb 25, 2022)

Annatar said:


> Even though I don't really like Peter Jackson's film adaptations, I have to give him credit for his attitude:
> "_We made a promise to ourselves at the beginning of the process that we weren't going to put any of our own politics, our own messages or our own themes into these movies. ... In a way, we were trying to make these films for him, not for ourselves_." - Peter Jackson


Unfortunately, in the light of some of the changes he *did* make on very fundamental themes, I'd now have to call him a liar to his face.👿


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## Annatar (Feb 25, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> Unfortunately, in the light of some of the changes he *did* make on very fundamental themes, I'd now have to call him a liar to his face.👿


While that is true, he has actually largely succeeded in leaving current politics out of it.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 25, 2022)

Annatar said:


> neutral and faithful


I'd have to say the last is a debatable judgement -- as you can see in innumerable old threads here. 😁


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## m4r35n357 (Feb 25, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> Unfortunately, in the light of some of the changes he *did* make on very fundamental themes, I'd now have to call him a liar to his face.👿


If PJ can take the moral high ground here, Amazon _should_ be worried!


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## Annatar (Feb 25, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I'd have to say the last is a debatable judgement -- as you can see in innumerable old threads here. 😁


Yes, I know, I said myself that I was not satisfied with the result.
But - if he didn't deliberately lie - the will was there at least initially, which is not the case at all with Amazon. 
I am the last person who would come to PJ's defense, but against what is currently happening, he seems like a saint. 🎅


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## Olorgando (Feb 25, 2022)

Annatar said:


> While that is true, he has actually largely succeeded in leaving current politics out of it.


Fellowship premiered about three months after 9/11. The only thing flying around in LoTR were the Nazgûl on their fell beasts ... (and Gandalf on an Eagle a couple of times).


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## Annatar (Feb 25, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> Fellowship premiered about three months after 9/11. The only thing flying around in LoTR were the Nazgûl on their fell beasts ... (and Gandalf on an Eagle a couple of times).


But part 2 was called "The Two Towers" 😜


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## Olorgando (Feb 25, 2022)

Annatar said:


> I am the last person who would come to PJ's defense, but against what is currently happening, he seems like a saint. 🎅


IIRC, LoTR, and especially RoTK - broke new ground on CGI. And all involved in the LoTR project beginning in the late 1990's were at least professional film-makers - of that bygone era (they started out in the previous *millennium!!!*  ). The CGI overkill era began after that - or with it. Never having watched anything by Amazon Prime, I can't judge their stuff - except from mainly negative posts here, at second-hand.


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## Olorgando (Feb 25, 2022)

Annatar said:


> But part 2 was called "The Two Towers" 😜


Yeah; they actually used the titles of the volumes, from over 45 years earlier. Are you saying JRRT was clairvoyant?


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## Annatar (Feb 25, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> IIRC, LoTR, and especially RoTK - broke new ground on CGI. And all involved in the LoTR project beginning in the late 1990's were at least professional film-makers - of that bygone era (they started out in the previous *millennium!!!*  ). The CGI overkill era began after that - or with it.



I suspect that many (young) people place great value on good CGI effects, but to be honest, that interests me only marginally. I want a coherent story. And if it's labeled "Middle-earth", I want to feel at least a bit of the Tolkien spirit and not be mocked as a book fan by movie-authors who are actually bunglers and/or political activists. With the published pictures, the interviews/articles and the teaser (including that "superfan" cringe propaganda) I can't be optimistic any more, unfortunately. 

Concerning CGI: Just that scene where Galadriel jumps around vertically on those blocks of ice with her dagger is so stupid and badly done. This is just as bad as those constant jump 'n run video game scenes in The Hobbit.



Olorgando said:


> Never having watched anything by Amazon Prime, I can't judge their stuff - except from mainly negative posts here, at second-hand.



Then I'd recommend you to take a look at the "Wheel of Time" series. An absolute disaster, in every sense! Even 90's Xena would be ashamed of that.



Olorgando said:


> Are you saying JRRT was clairvoyant?



Yes, he at least knew that a great many Sarumans and Orcs would come...


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 25, 2022)

Annatar said:


> 90's Xena


Really? Xena? 😳


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## Annatar (Feb 25, 2022)

And even Hercules!!! 

As well as their sidekicks.


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## Olorgando (Feb 25, 2022)

Annatar said:


> Then I'd recommend you to take a look at the "Wheel of Time" series. An absolute disaster, in every sense! Even 90's Xena would be ashamed of that.


"You cannot be serious!" (© John McEnroe at Wimbledon 1981).
I hardly watch any TV anymore, not even stuff other people enthuse above. And you're "recommending" what you basically personally consider 💩?

Ah, no.


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## Annatar (Feb 25, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> And you're "recommending" what you basically personally consider 💩?


😹

In contrast to MrNumbers, I probably have an extremely high level of cringe tolerance. I even enjoy it in a strange way. As a German, you should know this awkward hobby as "Fremdschämen".  (Which, by the way, is the recipe for the success of all these trash TV formats. And which could also be the reason that this series may still be successful.)
But if you absolutely want to give this Amazon Rings of Power series another chance, the Wheel of Time should definitely be viewed beforehand in order to be prepared for all perversities: It can only get better.


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## Halasían (Feb 25, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Let's try to leave the politics to other sites, eh?





Annatar said:


> ... if we want to discuss the series, that can't always work completely, because the main problem with the series is that it's full of current politics, which is now proven not only by the trailer, but also by the "superfan" video.



Seriously? Yes, you are... I'm sure. It is only 'proven' in the minds of people who have a certain bias that 'anything new has a political agenda', therefore, they 'cant keep politics out of it'. It was the point I made in my shut-down thread. Anyway, you guys got quite the echo chamber going on here. Have fun with it.


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## Annatar (Feb 25, 2022)

Really, if not even the "superfans" video is proof for you, there is no need for any serious discussion.
Are you also a superfan? 😹
Try to check your own echo chamber. What do you think of the amount of dislikes? Have you read the books by JRRT??? I'm trying not to get angry right now....
But didn't we actually want to end political discussions?

In any case, I think it's a great pity that the division in society is now apparently being continued among us Tolkien fans on purpose, but I'm also proud that so many are already fighting back against this sacrilege, as you can see from the dislikes of the trailers (if you have the Chrome addon installed).

And as already said, no matter whether left or right, what Amazon is putting in front of us will be total trash either way. If you don't want to believe it now, you'll have to be disappointed later. You'll find out when you *stop lying to yourself*.

What is important now is that we get together, regardless of any political differences, to send a signal that they are on the wrong track. Maybe we can still achieve something with it.

What we don't want is Tolkien to be desecrated, and we should all stand together not only on YouTube but here as well.


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## m4r35n357 (Feb 26, 2022)

Annatar said:


> In contrast to MrNumbers,


Behave yourself, Anna!


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## Olorgando (Feb 26, 2022)

m4r35n357 said:


> Annatar said:
> 
> 
> > In contrast to MrNumbers,
> ...


Hasn't anyone noticed that the most obvious shorthand for our esteemed member's TTF name is "M", made easier by the wide-spread Ian Fleming baggage?
@m4r35n357 : choosing a name can be fraught with peril - I'll just refer you to Johnny Cash's perhaps best-known song, "A Boy Named Sue" (written by Shel Silverstein, a grand master at the art of satirical poems / songs). 😁


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## Olorgando (Feb 26, 2022)

Halasían said:


> 'anything new has a political agenda'


There's another stream of thought that started about just after the end of WW I, so over 100 years ago, and which has been disproved far too often to record:
"Anything new is good". Specifically new things in the 1920's were Lenin's Communists consolidating power in what then became the Soviet Union, Mussolini's rise to power in Italy, Hitler's movement that needed a few years longer ...
As far as literature is concerned I know hardly anything - except that not a few critics of LoTR at it's first publication, mainly modern*ists*, if I got that right (isms ... 🤮 ) didn't notice that they were contradicting themselves, often their own earlier writings.
I really don't know what Amazon (Bezos?) tried to accomplish with that "Superfan" clip. I can sympathize that they all felt themselves marginalized in mainstream media (though they all seem so young that I want to remind them of what their parents (grandparents?) were up against decades earlier - I lived on the US 1966-75, a wholly different world from today; though I am wondering if it is not now regressing to a decidedly uglier earlier era). What puzzles me is that Amazon should be among the Internet-savvy companies (there are tons of them that ain't!). So they didn't realize that it would be so easy, all of these "Superfans" having been quite active in the Internet (apparently including some dubious outlets) for people to call out and destroy their faux "Superfan" status? Has nobody pointed out to Amazon (and perhaps Bezos) how many copies of that "paleolithic" wood-pulp-based information receptacle, aka "book" have been sold? My only experience with the company was of them being an Internet *book*seller!!!!! Are corporate attention spans reaching the nanosecond threshold???


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## m4r35n357 (Feb 26, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> Hasn't anyone noticed that the most obvious shorthand for our esteemed member's TTF name is "M", made easier by the wide-spread Ian Fleming baggage?


Also, hasn't anyone noticed that typing @m4 will give you a clickable link? It is a feature of *virtually every forum on the internet*. That nick has been chosen for a _very good reason_, and I _really_ don't expect it to be questioned or ridiculed here!

Also, consider that the "laziness" of typing _the same_ two words instead of the real thing is *no accident* - twice!

Also, consider that it is rarely necessary to actually _use_ a nick in the text, we have quoting for that!

And yes, I remember that song very well


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## Halasían (Feb 26, 2022)

Annatar said:


> What we don't want is Tolkien to be desecrated, and we should all stand together not only on YouTube but here as well.


"we" ... 
 🤣 

Unlike the ravenous hordes who are desecrating Tolkien by dogpiling on the anti-project bandwagon, I will reserve judgement on the finished project, not on youtube opinions cyber-bot conspiracy campaigns about it. I believe the creators and the Tolkien Estate people are doing well to get this done in the shadow of such vitriol being espoused by your "we" ilk.


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## Aldarion (Feb 26, 2022)

Halasían said:


> "we" ...
> 🤣
> 
> Unlike the ravenous hordes who are desecrating Tolkien by dogpiling on the anti-project bandwagon, I will reserve judgement on the finished project, not on youtube opinions cyber-bot conspiracy campaigns about it. I believe the creators and the Tolkien Estate people are doing well to get this done in the shadow of such vitriol being espoused by your "we" ilk.


You mean, the same project that is inviting "Tolkien superfans" _who had never, in fact, read anything written by Tolkien__?_ One would even think said "ravenous hordes" are concerned about Amazon not actually caring about Tolkien's work...


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## Olorgando (Feb 26, 2022)

Halasían said:


> ... I believe the creators and the Tolkien Estate people are doing well to get this done ...


Has the Tolkien Estate weighed in in any form in this discussion yet?


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## Halasían (Feb 26, 2022)

No Aldarion, that is what _you_ want it to mean.

Gando, they have people actively working with the producers.

Anyway, I found this interesting article on the 'diversity' issue.


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## Aldarion (Feb 26, 2022)

Halasían said:


> No Aldarion, that is what _you_ want it to mean.


No, it is what it means. Amazon is even photoshopping people out of their videos, Stalin-style, presumably for saying something that disagreed with their vision.


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## Olorgando (Feb 26, 2022)

Halasían said:


> Gando, they have people actively working with the producers.
> Anyway, I found this interesting article on the 'diversity' issue.


That would be more than they did on PJ's projects. Do you know of any articles about this working with Amazon?

EA provided a link to the Tolkien Estate Homepage in this new thread ...









Unseen JRR Tolkien paintings, photographs and video clips released


https://www.theguardian.com/books/2022/feb/26/unseen-jrr-tolkien-paintings-photographs-and-video-clips-released Looks like it's just new stuff added to the Tolkien Estate site: https://www.tolkienestate.com/




www.thetolkienforum.com





At least a first brief glance seems to indicate they're not commenting on the Amazon production.
Also nothing about PJ's two projects, for that matter.
I do find it remarkable that both production outfits have the same rights, and not a shred more ...


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## Halasían (Feb 27, 2022)

Aldarion said:


> No, it is what it means.


 🤣 
No, it is clearly what _*you*_ think it means, not what I think it means. Your 'George' youtube video is laughable by the way.

Gando, they are probably wise in not making any commentary as it only feeds this slagger cult. I really wonder what they all are so afraid of.


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## Aldarion (Feb 27, 2022)

Halasían said:


> No, it is clearly what _*you*_ think it means, not what I think it means. Your 'George' youtube video is laughable by the way.


Laughable in what way? I don't think anything can be more laughable than what Amazon is doing (when it isn't simply sad, anyway).


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## m4r35n357 (Feb 27, 2022)

Halasían said:


> Anyway, I found this interesting article on the 'diversity' issue.


So slagging off the series is racist now? Keep working at that straw man!

Please don't cancel us


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## Halasían (Feb 27, 2022)

Who said anything about racism Mr Numbers? Oh, yes, you just did. The only ones trying to 'cancel' anything around here are you who can't even give this project a chance and just have to spend so much of your time tearing it down. What a sad existence. Oh well. So what happened to the Russian cyberbot posting all the conspiracy stuff? At least their posts were fun to read.


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## Aldarion (Feb 27, 2022)

Halasían said:


> Who said anything about racism


Amazon's showrunners, for one. It is their default response to _any and all _criticism of the series.


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## m4r35n357 (Feb 27, 2022)

Halasían said:


> Who said anything about racism Mr Numbers? Oh, yes, you just did. The only ones trying to 'cancel' anything around here are you who can't even give this project a chance and just have to spend so much of your time tearing it down. What a sad existence. Oh well. So what happened to the Russian cyberbot posting all the conspiracy stuff? At least their posts were fun to read.


OK Mr Alsatian, we appear to have been given the green light for nick abuse. Congratulations!
I have no interest whatsoever in your childish YT votes, nor your ranting and whingeing about them, nor the childish output from Amazon.
I wonder why you defend them so - do you have shares?
Please try and make a coherent point for once if that is within your capabilities.
Don't be shy, @Erestor Arcamen is currently liking posts from both of us!


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 27, 2022)

I'm not, for whatever that's worth- but neither are many of the other members here, in case you hadn't noticed. I'm seeing childish behavior from more than one source.

It's possible to disagree without insults. If this continues, another thread will have to be closed.


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## Olorgando (Feb 27, 2022)

Halasían said:


> Gando, they are probably wise in not making any commentary as it only feeds this slagger cult. I really wonder what they all are so afraid of.


My guess goes more in the direction that it's part of the agreement they reached with Amazon for the television rights.
And that they keep out of such frays as a matter of principle. Christopher's harrumphs about PJ's LoTR films were few - and the film rights had been sold decades earlier.
Where I severely disagree with you is your implication (as I interpret it) that all those dumping on the Jeff Bezos company are from "the wrong corner", to translate a term familiar in Germany. These may be getting the most attention, by "virtue" of their pushing "hot buttons" and yelling the loudest. There are enough things in that one-minute trailer to make one - me - want to use John McEnroe's most famous quote, "you cannot be serious", in Amazon's direction. As to Amazon's real-life "dedication" to diversity and inclusiveness, Ealdwyn posted enough links in another thread to expose anything Amazon does in this direction as a form of greenwashing.
What I can't get my head around is that Amazon apparently thought they could somehow silence critics with that "superfan" stunt. There are plenty of "superfans" here on TTF, but those four wouldn't last a minute in any discussion on JRRT's works here on TTF. I feel pity for them for their having been manipulated by Amazon in this way; they voiced some valid grievances, but Amazon a "champion" for such causes? Gimme a break!


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## m4r35n357 (Feb 27, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I'm not, for whatever that's worth- but neither are many of the other members here, in case you hadn't noticed. I'm seeing childish behavior from more than one source.
> 
> It's possible to disagree without insults. If this continues, another thread will have to be closed.


It's pretty clear that this thread went south quite early on! I wouldn't mourn its loss one bit.

And I _did_ complain about the nick abuse, but apparently that is acceptable now - not my decision!


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## m4r35n357 (Feb 27, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> What I can't get my head around is that Amazon apparently thought they could somehow silence critics with that "superfan" stunt. There are plenty of "superfans" here on TTF, but those four wouldn't last a minute in any discussion on JRRT's works here on TTF. I feel pity for them for their having been manipulated by Amazon in this way; they voiced some valid grievances, but Amazon a "champion" for such causes? Gimme a break!


Whether we agree with the "Superfans" or not, that is how they earn a living, it is the way of the world now. I see no point dumping on them (except to have a laff) since Amazon is _paying_ them to do it. I wouldn't expect anyone to turn down the sort of money that I _assume_ Amazon is paying them - after all, if they don't do the gig, someone else will.


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## Olorgando (Feb 27, 2022)

m4r35n357 said:


> Whether we agree with the "Superfans" or not, that is how they earn a living, it is the way of the world now. I see no point dumping on them (except to have a laff) since Amazon is _paying_ them to do it. I wouldn't expect anyone to turn down the sort of money that I _assume_ Amazon is paying them - after all, if they don't do the gig, someone else will.


Hmyes; the guy who took the part of moderator introduced the other three as "a Fellowship of Influencers". _(BTW my spellchecker does not seem to be familiar with the term "Influencer" - yet _🤣_ )_. That's a segment of the Internet that I am wholly unfamiliar with. But them I am anything but a surfer (the vast majority of my time online has been spent in JRRT forums; Wikipedia probably comes next). I guess I would say I slosh around in the shallows, at best ankle-deep. 😷
What continues to fascinate me how @Squint-eyed Southerner , using a tiny smart-phone no less, and having by his own admission gone online with that almost two years *after* I did, digs up stuff apparently all over the place. The fitting comparison might be Gandalf or Aragorn to my Hobbit - if not quite The Gaffer, then at most Merry pre-quest, who at least seemed familiar with Bree. 😬


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## TrollinSun (Feb 27, 2022)

HaradrimTheHorrible said:


> This is such a ridiculous take.


so ridiculous, its almost like it was a joke!



TrollinSun said:


> so ridiculous, its almost like it was a joke!


I hope


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## Annatar (Feb 27, 2022)

Halasían said:


> Anyway, I found this interesting article on the 'diversity' issue.


Unfortunately, the article is full of lies and false information. I'd gladly go into it, if this had not already been discussed here or in other threads, or if it weren't self-explanatory to anyone familiar with Tolkien and with a modicum of common sense left.

Only that much:


> In any case, the idea that people of color were not part of Britain or Northern Europe in the ancient and medieval past is false.


This is just complete nonsense. In the Middle Ages, the amount of PoC in Europe was less than 0.0001% in rural areas and less than 0.1% in cities. Every reasonably educated European knows that: Yes, there have been some PoCs in Europe, but that was an absolute exception and completely rare, especially in rural areas. And most people lived in small villages or single farms back in the Middle Ages. Even if more and more articles by woke activists are popping up that claim the opposite: This is simply fake news and propagandalf 🧙‍♂️ uh... propaganda.

In antique metropolises, which were more diverse, such as ancient Rome, there may have been a slightly higher proportion of PoC, but even there the proportion of African descent is unlikely to have been more than 2%, and these were usually either slaves, freedmen, gladiators, or mercenaries.
In ancient times, before the Middle Ages, there were larger cities especially in southern Europe, which were culturally more developed than the northern celtic and germanic tribes, and which conducted a lot of trade with other countries. So there was definitely more "diversity" than during the Middle Ages, but that still has nothing in common with the casting decisions of modern series. Of course, there were more tanned people in the south, first of all because it's naturally much warmer there than in northern Europe, but there was also a cultural and economic exchange, especially in the Mediterranean region with Asia Minor and northern Africa like Egypt.
But also in North Africa (near the coasts of the Mediterranean Sea) there were (and are) not many PoC with dark skin according to today's terms, but rather the "Mediterranean" type. And it's very, very certain that Tolkien, in his descriptions of dark or brown skin, meant that Mediterranean skin type when he spoke of Dunlendings, Gondorians (who were not of Numenorean ancestry) or the people of Near(!)-Harad including the natives at Umbar.

Another problem with the series is that the cast is not really diverse in the true sense of the word. For a series set in the Second Age, for example, I'd have expected a storyline in the East (Rhun), too. Where are the Asian-looking actors in the cast? They don't exist. The sole purpose here is to depict the social conditions of modern US cities, which for me personally, as a European who is not "woke" or completely left-leaning, destroys the immersion from the start. But for an American who is not familiar with European mythology and history, this probably may not matter.

For me (and I'm obviously not alone in this), in any case, it's a form of cultural appropriation. I don't want to see white Europeans playing Africans in the "Black Panther" cast either. And I don't want to see PoC or white swordsmen in main roles in Asian fantasy/Wuxia movies like "Hero" either, just to meet some quota or because these fools think you can only identify with characters who have the same skin color as you. Because that's the real racism. Immersion works through authenticity, not skin color or minority quotas. Otherwise, I'd also have to be upset that left-handed people and people who wear glasses are underrepresented, for example.I want an authentic, exciting, immersive story - and not to be represented by actors who wear glasses or are left-handed. However, if a character is explicitly described as left-handed or wearing glasses in the original / book, it should not be the opposite in the film adaptation. I hope that such banal examples will make the problem a little clearer to some people...

----

By the way, here's some more "funny" information about the "superfans":


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## Halasían (Feb 27, 2022)

Wow... somebody is sore. I wasn't being nasty about the cute name but you sure took it that way. Oh well. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Me, I'm all for seeing what is presented in September and will post my thoughts on it then. There is no point in engaging further with all you who have already decided that this adaptation sucks no matter what. Enjoy each other.


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## Annatar (Feb 27, 2022)

Halasían said:


> Me, I'm all for seeing what is presented in September and will post my thoughts on it then. There is no point in engaging further with all you who have already decided that this adaptation sucks no matter what. Enjoy each other.



I'd certainly understand your attitude if there weren't already so many "red flags". But maybe your tolerance level here is inversely proportional to the nickname tolerance level of "m4rNumbers" (Well, wasn't that already a small compromise?)


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## Halasían (Feb 27, 2022)

Annatar said:


> I'd certainly understand your attitude if there weren't already so many "red flags". But maybe your tolerance level here is inversely proportional to the nickname tolerance level of "m4rNumbers" (Well, wasn't that already a small compromise?)


Inverse ... My high tolerance of actually trying to engage here amongst all the repetition of series-bashing posts to my low tolerance of a netspeak name? Gotcha.

Edit because that or the next post isn't worth its own reply. The next post will say 'We" and "realistic". Yes, the Hobbit stunk. I still gave it the chance it deserved and didn't write it off because a bunch of internet fools campaigned so hard against it for months and even years saying it isn't 'true' Tolkien. No, The Hobbit movie franchise will never 'improve' because some other adaptation of a totally different nature comes along. Will this series suck? It might. It might not. We... or I, at least, will see. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ GFY
Emfourarethirtyfiveenthreefiftyseven (I believe that is correct), you assume so much. If you bothered to read anything I've posted outside than this thread, you would have seen I have said it many times. Also, I am, and have been a fan of the books for a very long time, so don't try claiming the high ground with me with your general 'book fans' crap. OYCF2.


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## Aldarion (Feb 27, 2022)

Halasían said:


> Wow... somebody is sore. I wasn't being nasty about the cute name but you sure took it that way. Oh well. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
> 
> Me, I'm all for seeing what is presented in September and will post my thoughts on it then. There is no point in engaging further with all you who have already decided that this adaptation sucks no matter what. Enjoy each other.


We are merely being realistic. People had been warning that the Hobbit will suck, and it turned out to be true. And by the looks of it, Rings of Power will make the Hobbit look like a masterpiece by comparison.


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## m4r35n357 (Feb 28, 2022)

Halasían said:


> Wow... somebody is sore. I wasn't being nasty about the cute name but you sure took it that way. Oh well. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Don't assume people like strangers being "cute" with their names. It is just basic respect! I wasn't expecting to have to point that out.


Halasían said:


> Me, I'm all for seeing what is presented in September and will post my thoughts on it then. There is no point in engaging further with all you who have already decided that this adaptation sucks no matter what. Enjoy each other.


Well if you had just said that in the first place instead of bringing all that irrelevant "smoke & mirrors", political buzzword nonsense into the fray, things would have been a lot less fraught.

In the interests of sane discussion, I cannot see (mathematically - they are using about 5% of virtually nothing) any way for Amazon can make this a worthwhile experience for fans of Tolkien's books. You obviously have some hope that many of us simply cannot understand, perhaps you would like to give us some idea what this is based on!



Annatar said:


> I'd certainly understand your attitude if there weren't already so many "red flags". But maybe your tolerance level here is inversely proportional to the nickname tolerance level of "m4rNumbers" (Well, wasn't that already a small compromise?)


Grow up Anna.



Halasían said:


> Some blather.


OK I have tried to bury the hatchet, but you are obviously a complete waste of time & space.


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## Halasían (Feb 28, 2022)

m4r35n357 said:


> OK I have tried to bury the hatchet, but you are obviously a complete waste of time & space.


Yeah, whatever. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 3, 2022)

I totally dislike this trailer....and i fear the worst, i am very disappointed of this trailer. I think, the amazon producers use Tolkiens Name, but what they produce there has nothing in common with the Silmarillion or others of Tolkiens books.
Strange man with wings, a naked man which falls from heaven in a meteor and a forced diversity cast...that is not Tolkiens middle earth. And i totally dislike how they show Galadriel...as warrior princess with a sword, chasing orks. That is not Tolkiens wise, pretty Galadriel. I will not watch the series, because it has no middle earth feeling for me....
Black Elves....like the black Lord in "Bridgerton" (a black Lord in the 19th century England although they didnt have black people in aristocraty that time) that is a typical example for forced diversity cast in our days, and it destroy every historic and fantasy serie.
Why they didnt use black actors to play the Harad, which was black in Tolkiens books?
i am not a racist, but i cant accept black elves, that fits not to my imagination of elves.
I mean, they would never use a white actor for playing Kunta Kinte in "Roots", but they use black people to play elves and in case of "Bridgerton" a Lord in the England of the 19th century. That is totally absurd and another reason(one of a lot of reasons) for me to not watch this serie.


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## ZehnWaters (Mar 3, 2022)

LadyGaladriel1980 said:


> I totally dislike this trailer....and i fear the worst, i am very disappointed of this trailer. I think, the amazon producers use Tolkiens Name, but what they produce there has nothing in common with the Silmarillion or others of Tolkiens books.
> Strange man with wings, a naked man which falls from heaven in a meteor and a forced diversity cast...that is not Tolkiens middle earth. And i totally dislike how they show Galadriel...as warrior princess with a sword, chasing orks. That is not Tolkiens wise, pretty Galadriel. I will not watch the series, because it has no middle earth feeling for me....


Yeah...this feels like generic high fantasy to me.


LadyGaladriel1980 said:


> Black Elves....like the black Lord in "Bridgerton" (a black Lord in the 19th century England although they didnt have black people in aristocraty that time) that is a typical example for forced diversity cast in our days, and it destroy every historic and fantasy serie.


It would be different if they were from a different region that made sense (like Harad, as you said, or the Sun Lands) but as is it's rather inexplicable. Also, where did all of these black characters GO in the Third Age? Heck, it even makes sense to make the Numenoreans darker-skinned since they've lived on the equator for thousands of years.


LadyGaladriel1980 said:


> I mean, they would never use a white actor for playing Kunta Kinte in "Roots", but they use black people to play elves and in case of "Bridgerton" a Lord in the England of the 19th century. That is totally absurd and another reason(one of a lot of reasons) for me to not watch this serie.


My favourite is the black Anne Boleyn. Sidenote, what is all of this subtly saying? Black characters are only good when they're repurposed from white characters? Why aren't they making movies or shows based on African folklore? It's almost like they're saying "Your stuff isn't good enough; here, have our leftovers".


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## Annatar (Mar 3, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> Heck, it even makes sense to make the Numenoreans darker-skinned since they've lived on the equator for thousands of years.


However, this is not true, since Arda was still a disk before Numenor's demise and thus the solar intensity was nearly the same everywhere. Temperature differences between the different countries cannot be explained physically, but rather by the influence of the Valar. Only after Arda was formed into a sphere, the proximity to the equator may have played a role.

Also from the description of the island of Numenor it is clear that it was created completely according to the will of the Valar and had rather moderate climate.

This is explained among other things also again in the following very good video, where the self-proclaimed "Tolkien professor" Corey Olsen is exposed again as a liar and quite clueless pseudo expert.
The Youtuber "Just some guy" generally makes many very good videos about Tolkien and the current "wokification". And by the way, he is not the only known black Youtuber who is a Tolkien fan and at the same time stands up for book fidelity, also concerning skin colors. For me, this is further proof that the vast majority of people don't have racist ulterior motives when it comes to this kind of criticism, but rather that they are concerned with immersion and fidelity to Tolkien's work.


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## ZehnWaters (Mar 3, 2022)

Annatar said:


> However, this is not true, since Arda was still a disk before Numenor's demise and thus the solar intensity was nearly the same everywhere. Temperature differences between the different countries cannot be explained physically, but rather by the influence of the Valar. Only after Arda was formed into a sphere, the proximity to the equator may have played a role.


 True, I suppose. They ARE implied to be similar to ancient Mediterraneans, at least. Judging by their artist choices and symbolic connection to the story of Atlantis..


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## Annatar (Mar 3, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> True, I suppose. They ARE implied to be similar to ancient Mediterraneans, at least. Judging by their artist choices and symbolic connection to the story of Atlantis..


In the first scene you can see a port of Numenor. I think the design of the city is okay. It's strongly reminiscent of the ancient Greeks, from whom (via Plato and Egypt) the legend of Atlantis originated. I think Tolkien also confirmed a few times (in letters etc.) that there were - purely culturally - similarities between the Numenorians and Ancient Egypt and other ancient peoples in the Mediterranean region. For example, the preference for imposing and colossal buildings and statues.

I assume that they will definitely implement this more or less correctly in the series. However, unfortunately, you have to expect that the cast will be random-diverse in an absurd way - as is unfortunately common in every modern fantasy series today. So the king will be white, the queen black, the first child white, the second black, the third oriental.... Only (East) Asians are strangely not in the main cast at all.


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## Elthir (Mar 3, 2022)

I'd say it's a Mannish tradition that the world was once flat. In the Elvish (Western Elvish) tradition the world was always round. Thus these Western Elves thus tried to teach the Numenoreans thusly:

*"And behold! the fashion of the Earth is such that a girdle may be set about it. Or as an apple it hangeth on the branches of Heaven, and it is round and fair, and the seas and lands are but the rind of the fruit, which shall abide upon the tree until the ripening that Eru hath appointed."*

JRRT, The Drowning of Anadune


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## Annatar (Mar 3, 2022)

Elthir said:


> It's a Mannish tradition that the world was once flat. In the Elvish (Western Elvish) tradition the world was always round. Thus these Western Elves thus tried to teach the Numenoreans thusly:
> 
> *"And behold! the fashion of the Earth is such that a girdle may be set about it. Or as an apple it hangeth on the branches of Heaven, and it is round and fair, and the seas and lands are but the rind of the fruit, which shall abide upon the tree until the ripening that Eru hath appointed." *
> 
> JRRT, The Drowning of Anadune



Good point. However, that doesn't mean that proximity to the equator has to play a role in how hard the sun burns down and darkens the skin, where Valar influence overrides real-life natural laws. Because otherwise, for example, Valinor would not have been a paradise country, but a tropical jungle in the middle and a desert on the edges. The elves there would all be black, but they are definitely not. Also from the description of the flora and fauna it's clear that Numenor, Tol Eressea and Eldamar were climatically very temperate and mild. Ultimately it's a mythology mostly for England and Europe.
So there is no reason to think that dark-skinned humans could have evolved on Numenor (perhaps with the exception of the few Druedain who settled there, but who already had darker skins).


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## ZehnWaters (Mar 3, 2022)

Elthir said:


> I'd say it's a Mannish tradition that the world was once flat. In the Elvish (Western Elvish) tradition the world was always round. Thus these Western Elves thus tried to teach the Numenoreans thusly:
> 
> *"And behold! the fashion of the Earth is such that a girdle may be set about it. Or as an apple it hangeth on the branches of Heaven, and it is round and fair, and the seas and lands are but the rind of the fruit, which shall abide upon the tree until the ripening that Eru hath appointed."*
> 
> JRRT, The Drowning of Anadune


I depends on when he's writing. Tolkien changed his mind about the matter. I rather prefer that the world was flat and made round during the drowning of Numenor. Further, I like to think Eru shifted the world into another dimension where it existed in space and the Elves leave by departing into another plane of existence.


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## Elthir (Mar 3, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> ( . . . ) I rather prefer that the world was flat and made round during the drowning of Numenor.



My post was in general response to the flat-to-round-idea in case it be thought by some to be inarguable.

To my mind it isn't (inarguably a fact), preferences aside


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## ZehnWaters (Mar 3, 2022)

Annatar said:


> Good point. However, that doesn't mean that proximity to the equator has to play a role in how hard the sun burns down and darkens the skin, where Valar influence overrides real-life natural laws. Because otherwise, for example, Valinor would not have been a paradise country, but a tropical jungle in the middle and a desert on the edges. The elves there would all be black. Also from the description of the flora and fauna it's clear that Numenor, Tol Eressea and Eldamar were climatically very temperate and mild. Ultimately it's a mythology mostly for England and Europe.
> So there is no reason to think that dark-skinned humans could have evolved on Numenor (perhaps with the exception of the few Druedain who settled there, but who already had darker skins).


If it's European, and Numenor is akin to Atlantis specifically, Italians, Spaniards, and Greeks can get fairly dark:


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## ZehnWaters (Mar 3, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> If it's European, and Numenor is akin to Atlantis specifically, Italians, Spaniards, and Greeks can get fairly dark:


Heck, even speaking of the British Islands, the Welsh have some who get dark:








BUT, this idea of an inexplicably, extremely diverse population is a modern convention since rapid travel and world-wide movement is easier. Even nowadays, the United States and Brazil are the countries with the highest racial diversity across their ENTIRE country and not just their major metropolitan areas/ports.


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## Annatar (Mar 3, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> If it's European, and Numenor is akin to Atlantis specifically, Italians, Spaniards, and Greeks can get fairly dark


In my opinion, that would still be within the scope of a possible interpretation, although I'd estimate Tolkien's idea differently (rather more Anglo-Saxon/Celtic/Germanic/Norse).

By the way, even if it were as hot in Numenor as in Central Africa or Central America (which is definitely not): 
All the descendants of the European immigrants who colonized these areas since the end of the Middle Ages still don't look like Africans, but like (southern) Europeans. Except when they had mixed with the natives or their then slaves brought from Africa. Such mixtures, however, would fit quite well - according to Tolkien's descriptions - most likely to Umbar and the further, only vaguely described Numenorian colonies there nearby and further south.

But I have already given up hope that this will be realized even rudimentarily realistically in the series. 
They're doing it wrong the other way, too: The black elf's love interest - who is said to come from the south, from a village named "Tirharad" - is white (though the acress is of Persion descent). It can be assumed that this place is south of Gondor. A darker skin color would actually have been appropriate for her. And when I look at the corresponding picture from the Vanity Fair article, the flora there doesn't look like Harad either, but rather typically for New Zealand / Peter-Jackson-Hobbiton and therefore somehow mild and European-like tempered.

For me, this all completely destroys the immersion, and I can say that because I've experienced it on recent fantasy series like The Witcher and Amazon's Wheel of Time.
Anyhow, I think there is no point in delving further into this borderline topic for now, even though it unfortunately had to be brought up due to Amazon's propaganda, fan insults and wokeness policy. (And I'm afraid this will, unfortunately, be cyclical.)

So we're definitely going to get a show where diversity, girl power (I'm sure Xena-Galadriel is just the beginning) and political innuendos are constantly rubbed in our faces. Some will be able to live with it, some will not. But for those who manage to look past that, the question will arise as to whether the plot, the dialogues, the costumes, cgi-effects, the setting, characters, and the atmosphere as a whole will be gripping and deep and in the spirit of Tolkien. In this respect, too, the first trailer was not exciting at all. But in this regard, at least there is still hope that things will get better.


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## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 3, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> Yeah...this feels like generic high fantasy to me.
> 
> It would be different if they were from a different region that made sense (like Harad, as you said, or the Sun Lands) but as is it's rather inexplicable. Also, where did all of these black characters GO in the Third Age? Heck, it even makes sense to make the Numenoreans darker-skinned since they've lived on the equator for thousands of years.
> 
> My favourite is the black Anne Boleyn. Sidenote, what is all of this subtly saying? Black characters are only good when they're repurposed from white characters? Why aren't they making movies or shows based on African folklore? It's almost like they're saying "Your stuff isn't good enough; here, have our leftovers".


Yes, and what me really totally annoys is, that some people call you a racist, if you say, that Tolkiens elves was not black. Tolkien had the inspiriation to his books from old european legends, in which elves, and dwarfes was always white. I really cant understand, why they didnt take black actors to play the Haradrim, which come from a very warm desert area, which will fit perfect for their black skin color?
Dwarfes cant be black, because they life mostly under the hills, and elves cant be black, because they life in forest areas which has a nordic cold climate....and we all know from history lessons, that people can only have black skin in countrys with a hot climate.
This political correctness diverstity thing in the serie destroy everything, this serie would be only another average diversity serie which can not bring me into the middle earth feeling that peter Jackson had bring me.
There does really exist a movie with a black Anne Boleyn? How horrible....that shows again, how producers ignoring historic facs, only to serve the political correctness.
There are so much movies and series which play in our time and where black actors fit perfect...so why they must do black actors in series, where it not fit so good?

And that is not the only thing...i also totally dislike how Galadriel and Elrond look in it:



https://www.geekfeed.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/11-Galadriel-Eldron-LOTR-ROP.jpg



Here it looks like they having a love affair.....although Elrond is her son in law.....really horrible. And even when Galadriel wears a elvish looking dress in the serie, she dont look elvish to me, like she did in Peter Jacksons genious movies.
Nothing on this serie brings me into a Middle Earth Feeling.....
I remember when i first saw "The fellowship of the ring" without knowing Lord of the Rings before.....the first five Minutes(where the story of the ring was told) has bring me totally into Middle earth, i was totally fascinating, and getting deeper and deeper into this world.
But this trailer wakes no Middle earth feeling in me, it was such a horrible trailer, nothing there was like Tolkien has written it.
And also this black Hobbit woman....totally horrible...i dont think, that Hobbits was black, and she also had a face like a child.....not really typical for Hobbits.
And this black dwarf princess.....that also absolutely dont fit to middle earth....and it shows, that the producers of this serie sacrifice Tolkiens fascinating world to the Diversity.


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## m4r35n357 (Mar 3, 2022)

> Woke woke woke woke,
> Woke woke woke woke,
> Woke woke woke woke woke woke woke woke


Come on, you know the tune!

Amazon can do what they like to the story or the legacy, but if they try miscasting any racial types . . .


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## Annatar (Mar 3, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> Heck, even speaking of the British Islands, the Welsh have some who get dark:


Yes, that seems to be the case. I've spent some time wondering why Tolkien always described the Dunlendings as dark on the one hand and Celtic on the other, which to me is a contradiction. But it seems to be the case with the Celtic British that there are also some darker skin types (which are still white in modern sense!). I think the Dunlendings and their relatives don't come off very well in Tolkien's books, unfortunately, but that's another topic. Anyway, he seems to have thought more of the Anglo-Saxons with the Rohirrim and more of the (or certain) Celts with the Dunlendings, though of course he would have ruled out any allegory. But that will probably be more of a topic for the upcoming anime adaptation.



> BUT, this idea of an inexplicably, extremely diverse population is a modern convention since rapid travel and world-wide movement is easier. Even nowadays, the United States and Brazil are the countries with the highest racial diversity across their ENTIRE country and not just their major metropolitan areas/ports.



Absolutely. That's what bothers me most about it: You're pulled out of a plausible fantasy world based on European mythologies and you think you're somewhere in New York waiting for the subway...


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## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 3, 2022)

Annatar said:


> In my opinion, that would still be within the scope of a possible interpretation, although I'd estimate Tolkien's idea differently (rather more Anglo-Saxon/Celtic/Germanic/Norse).
> 
> By the way, even if it were as hot in Numenor as in Central Africa or Central America (which is definitely not):
> All the descendants of the European immigrants who colonized these areas since the end of the Middle Ages still don't look like Africans, but like (southern) Europeans. Except when they had mixed with the natives or their then slaves brought from Africa. Such mixtures, however, would fit quite well - according to Tolkien's descriptions - most likely to Umbar and the further, only vaguely described Numenorian colonies there nearby and further south.
> ...


For me this black elves and dwarfes and all this makes also the immersion into the serie totally impossible.
And this love story of the black elv with a young single mom, a human woman, is absolutely not Tolkiens Middle earth. 
In the books the elves (and all other people) life isolated in their own communitys....the elves of Lothlorien for example dont let strangers into their forest....in the book the companions could only come to the golden forest, because Galadriel and Celeborn know Aragorn, and because Legolas is a relative of the Galadhrim, but that was an exception. 
All, althought it was Elves in Lothlorien or Mirkwood, or Dwarfes in Moria, or humans in Rohan, live homogeneous. So it is totally absurd, that there is a black elv, which goes away to flirt with a human woman. That is not Tolkiens Middle Earth, that is a strange Diverstity construct, in which is more from our modern time than from Middle Earth. 
It is really horrible, that this serie ist he pure wokeness and not Tolkiens Middle earth...for me a reason, not to watch the serie. The trailer was really enough for me, i really cant endure more of it.


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## Annatar (Mar 3, 2022)

m4r35n357 said:


> Amazon can do what they like to the story or the legacy, but if they try miscasting any racial types . . .


Not sure how you mean that. But a very large part of the overall criticism also refers to things that one would not classify as "woke":
- that the dwarf woman has no beard
- that Galadriel - with just a dagger and some bad CGI effects - easily jumps around an icy abyss in chain armor
- that Gandalfs fall from the sky as meteorites
- that Hobbits play such an important role in the Second Age that airtime is cut off, which could have been used for more important subjects
- that Galadriel travels to Numenor and beats up soldiers there
- that men with huge elk antlers walk around pointlessly
- that everything seems to be about stupid action
- that Galadriel and especially Elrond look far too young
- that Elrond is characterized as a young, ambitious political architect
- that lots of cliche characters were invented instead of focussing on Tolkien's works
- etc.

But most important: 
- They don't have the rights for the Silmarillion or the Unfinished Tales - so it will be just some fan-fiction, nobody ever wanted to see.


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## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 3, 2022)

Annatar said:


> Not sure how you mean that. But a very large part of the overall criticism also refers to things that one would not classify as "woke":
> - that the dwarf woman has no beard
> - that Galadriel - with just a dagger and some bad CGI effects - easily jumps around an icy abyss in chain armor
> - that Gandalfs fall from the sky as meteorites
> ...


And, a really worst thing:

It seems, like the producers will make Galadriel and Elrond to a love couple....that is really a big break with Tolkiens Books, because Elrond married Galadriels daughter. I guess, they will keep off very much of the important charakteres like Celeborn or Celebrian.
And: If Elrond and Galadriel getting a couple in the serie, Celebrian would be never born, and also not Celebrians daugther Arwen.
And: when Galadriel was young and goes over the Helcaraxe, Elrond wasnt born already.


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## Annatar (Mar 3, 2022)

LadyGaladriel1980 said:


> And this love story of the black elv with a young single mom


Well, there are some isolated and special cases where there were love connections between elves and humans, sometimes mutually, sometimes just one-sided.

Since Amazon doesn't have the rights to the Silmarillion and they still didn't want to miss out on such a special romance, they simply invented something.

And since it's obviously an important concern of Amazon to mix current left-wing political agendas into everything, of course the Elf has to look like a short-haired black person of the 21st century who is currently cosplaying. And the woman must therefore be a single mother with a different skin color. Anything else would not be contemporary.

Of course, all of this is borderline, if not despicable, for a true Tolkien fan. In my opinion, "gatekeeping" is definitely necessary here.


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## Annatar (Mar 3, 2022)

LadyGaladriel1980 said:


> It seems, like the producers will make Galadriel and Elrond to a love couple....


Yes, I know the image you're probably referring to, but I think it's different than you think.  

I'm very confident that the two will not have a romantic relationship. Amazon must not contradict the canon too clearly, after all, that was contractually agreed with the Tolkien Estate.

However, they will use every gray area and newly invented characters to get up to mischief.


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## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 3, 2022)

Annatar said:


> Well, there are some isolated and special cases where there were love connections between elves and humans, sometimes mutually, sometimes just one-sided.
> 
> Since Amazon doesn't have the rights to the Silmarillion and they still didn't want to miss out on such a special romance, they simply invented something.
> 
> ...


I dont want to see a fantasy serie, in which Love Storys are one of the biggest part of the story. 
I really love how Peter Jackson did it...no Sex, and this cute romantic scene in which Arwen gives Aragorn the evenstar and they kiss each other....that was only a short part of the movie, but everyone know that Aragorn and Arwen love each other. 
And also in Two Towers and Return of the King, the love story of both has only around 5 minutes in the whole 3 hour movie, but that is absolutely enough to show how deep their love is.
But i guess, i this serie will 50% of the whole story be love storys. 
And for me an immersion into the serie is absolutely impossible, when the characters look like people in our modern, multicultural world. What the producers show there, that is not Tolkiens middle earth...it is a riciculous copy of our own world. 
Why this producers make middle earth to our modern world? 
A lot of us fans love middle earth, because it is so different from our modern world, and we love to forget the real world for a few hours, while watching the movies of Peter Jackson or reading the books of Tolkien.
But if there are black elves and dwarfes, a homosexual wizard and a lot of more things, that belongs in our modern time, but not into middle earth, this serie makes it totally impossible to use it as escapation from Reality for a few hours.



Annatar said:


> Yes, I know the image you're probably referring to, but I think it's different than you think.
> 
> I'm very confident that the two will not have a romantic relationship. Amazon must not contradict the canon too clearly, after all, that was contractually agreed with the Tolkien Estate.
> 
> However, they will use every gray area and newly invented characters to get up to mischief.


This trailer was so absurd, disgusting and ridiculous, that i thinkt, it is even possible, that the producers take Elrond and Galadriel as a love couple. I mean, Peter Jackson was a big Lord of the Ring fan, that is the reason why he make such a good work.
But for this Amazon Producers Tolkien means nothing, for them the serie is only one more serie, which they will produce to earn a lot of money with it. They dont care what the true story of Elrond and Galadriel is.
Even Elronds Look, this short hair, that is so disgusting...it dont look like Elrond....absolutely not elvish...and Galadriel also dont look elvish...she looks like a totally average human woman....she has not the charisma and the Magic that Cate Blanchett had in her role as Galadriel.
The amazon people contradict Tolkien in every way.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Mar 3, 2022)

Just a reminder to everyone that politics is off limits here.

As are expletives.


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## Annatar (Mar 3, 2022)

LadyGaladriel1980 said:


> a homosexual wizard


However, there is still no evidence of this. I also don't think that 50% of the screen time will go to love stories. I'm more concerned that it will mostly be pretty trivial action scenes. Or just irrelevant, stupid scenes like in Wheel of Time. But that remains to be seen. One shouldn't interpret too many negative speculative things into the trailer, the confirmed ones are already enough.


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## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 3, 2022)

Annatar said:


> However, there is still no evidence of this. I also don't think that 50% of the screen time will go to love stories. I'm more concerned that it will mostly be pretty trivial action scenes. Or just irrelevant, stupid scenes like in Wheel of Time. But that remains to be seen. One shouldn't interpret too many negative speculative things into the trailer, the confirmed ones are already enough.


I guess, this serie will be as horrible as game of thrones: one part for love storys and sex, the other part for brutal battles wih warrior woman.
I am really shocked, what they made of Galadriel....i see her as peaceful, wise woman in White, not as brutal warrior woman. For me Galadriel was always a symbol für peace and wisedom and for the good.


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## Annatar (Mar 3, 2022)

LadyGaladriel1980 said:


> I guess, this serie will be as horrible as game of throne


I really liked Game of Thrones, at least the seasons that were still based on the books. It was really an excellent adaptation at first because it was so close to the books. And I liked the books. It's just something different than Tolkien, but still good. But of course it would be pointless to impose the flair of Game of Thrones on Middle-earth. That should be kept separate.


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## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 3, 2022)

Annatar said:


> I really liked Game of Thrones, at least the seasons that were still based on the books. It was really an excellent adaptation at first because it was so close to the books. And I liked the books. It's just something different than Tolkien, but still good. But of course it would be pointless to impose the flair of Game of Thrones on Middle-earth. That should be kept separate.


I dont like Game of throne, for me it has to much sex and violence, i prefer fantasy in the Tolkien way 
I really hope, that some day maybe Peter Jackson will produce a serie about the Silmarillion...he will do it right and dont destroy the hopes of fans like the amazon producers did.


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## Annatar (Mar 3, 2022)

LadyGaladriel1980 said:


> I really hope, that some day maybe Peter Jackson will produce a serie about the Silmarillion...he will do it right and dont destroy the hopes of fans like the amazon producers did.


I absolutely hope not. While Peter Jackson wouldn't do it nearly as badly as Amazon, it would still end up being a pretty unworthy result. I can only hope that the Silmarillion never gets made into a movie or series.


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## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 3, 2022)

Annatar said:


> I absolutely hope not. While Peter Jackson wouldn't do it nearly as badly as Amazon, it would still end up being a pretty unworthy result. I can only hope that the Silmarillion never gets made into a movie or series.


Well, i guess, Peter Jackson could do even this wonder....the Silmarillion is very impossible to bring into a movie, but i guess, Peter Jackson could create even from a difficult book like the silmarillion a masterpiece. 
The amazon serie has nothing from the Silmarillion, i guess, if some of the teenage aged fans of the serie read the Silmarillion, they will be very suprised.


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## Halasían (Mar 3, 2022)

Firinne Gile said:


> If you're going to offend me, have the decency to mention my name. That's what I'm following on several forums: people who are criticizing Amazon are being offended by the defenders of this initiative as if the criticism was directed at them, not at the producers and because of that they start saying personal insults to the others. This is completely irrational. If you don't have the emotional stability to see people disagreeing with what you think, don't join a forum.


Glad you returned Firinne Gile. Many sign up, few become regulars. I've been hanging around here since 2001. I tried to leave. Sorry to disappoint you in that. Your posts are rather entertaining and have some nice edges in your delivery compared to most of the typical ones of the mindset. I'm going to watch the series, and I'll make judgements on what I see and discuss the show in safe environments. Until then, I'll laugh at the months of posts.


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## Olorgando (Mar 3, 2022)

Halasían said:


> ... I'll make judgements on what I see ...


Hal - you did see that 61-second trailer, didn't you? 🤔


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## Halasían (Mar 3, 2022)

Firinne Gile said:


> Interact without offending other people. I don't need this, you don't need this, nobody needs this.


 🤣 Thanks for that. It has been made pretty clear that there is little point to try and interact with people who have already clearly made their mind up on this subject. Enjoy!



Olorgando said:


> Hal - you did see that 61-second trailer, didn't you? 🤔


Yes I did.


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## Olorgando (Mar 3, 2022)

Halasían said:


> ... little point to try and interact with people who have already clearly made their mind up on this subject ...


Uh-huh. Well, you seem to have made up your mind to watch the series come hell or high water ...

_(serious aside: are you being affected by that deluge that's drowning Sydney and environs ... and perhaps more? _😟_)_


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## Halasían (Mar 3, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> Uh-huh. Well, you seem to have made up your mind to watch the series come hell or high water ...
> 
> _(serious aside: are you being affected by that deluge that's drowning Sydney and environs ... and perhaps more? _😟_)_


I don't believe in writing something completely off because a teaser doesn't seem to fit into some pre-conceived box I've created in my mind about what it should be. I've seen the trailer, and nothing in it was a 'dealbreaker' for me so I see no point in getting my panties in a wad over it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

On the weather front, we've been fine here in Victoria. Elora's dad is up in North New South Wales and copped a lot of it, but it sounds like he is rather stoic about it. Where we lived before in Brisbane Queensland would have been fine other than that river that liked to form and run through the house during heavy rains.


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## Halasían (Mar 3, 2022)

*Yawn*


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## Olorgando (Mar 3, 2022)

Halasían said:


> I don't believe in writing something completely off because a teaser doesn't seem to fit into some pre-conceived box I've created in my mind about what it should be. I've seen the trailer, and nothing in it was a 'dealbreaker' for me so I see no point in getting my panties in a wad over it.


Well, first (and I only have this on second-hand information), Amazon seems to have managed to seriously anger the fans of the "Wheel of Time" book series with their TV adaptation. That's track record - apparently not good. Then, Galadriel as a Xena clone? Amazon does not have the rights to the "Silmarillion", and thus to the Fëanorian attack on Swanhaven of the Teleri - and her defense of her maternal relatives (or not quite - JRRT never got his pre-Third-Age concept of Galadriel in a final form). Next, Elrond as a (much too) young "aspiring politician"? *POLITICIAN???* Like in the US, or any other western country in the last, I dunno, 40 years??? The snippet they showed made me think rather of a cross between Michael Douglas's portrayal of Gordon Gekko in the 1987 "Wall Street" film and the member - perhaps boss - of some generic youth gang.

I'm all for giving the benefit of the doubt where it is reasonably applicable. I just have the feeling that the Bezos company is, at very best, in a gray zone here. That "Superfan" clip has me thinking they do not qualify for even "reasonable doubt" in the least.


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## Halasían (Mar 3, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> Well, first (and I only have this on second-hand information), Amazon seems to have managed to seriously anger the fans of the "Wheel of Time" book series with their TV adaptation. That's track record - apparently not good. Then, Galadriel as a Xena clone? Amazon does not have the rights to the "Silmarillion", and thus to the Fëanorian attack on Swanhaven of the Teleri - and her defense of her maternal relatives (or not quite - JRRT never got his pre-Third-Age concept of Galadriel in a final form). Next, Elrond as a (much too) young "aspiring politician"? *POLITICIAN???* Like in the US, or any other western country in the last, I dunno, 40 years??? The snippet they showed made me think rather of a cross between Michael Douglas's portrayal of Gordon Gekko in the 1987 "Wall Street" film and the member - perhaps boss - of some generic youth gang.
> 
> I'm all for giving the benefit of the doubt where it is reasonably applicable. I just have the feeling that the Bezos company is, at very best, in a gray zone here. That "Superfan" clip has me thinking they do not qualify for even "reasonable doubt" in the least.


Ok. 
After the Peter Jackson rape of Lord of the Rings, a full book mind you, the mold was cast to pretty much make up what you want when there _is_ source content, let alone incomplete parts of story. Like I said before and in multiple places, I'm willing to give them a wide berth here, and nothing I saw in that snippet has really gone beyond anything worse than 'elves in Helms Deep' or 'lunatic Denethor' territory. The whole 'Armoured Galadriel' thing is clearly a hat-tip to Peter Jackson's vision.... in case anyone forgot....




Edit: this has gone on over a page so I won't bump it In response to #'s post below mine.
I replaced my original word 'trashed' with 'rape' because I just _knew_ it would be the one thing focused on. Hook. Line. Sinker. 
🤣


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## m4r35n357 (Mar 4, 2022)

Shut up and take my money!



Halasían said:


> After the Peter Jackson rape of Lord of the Rings, a full book mind you, the mold was cast to pretty


Is that "rape" as in theft (rape of the Silmarils) or as in sexual assault? I'm not sure either applies here . . .


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## ZehnWaters (Mar 4, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> That "Superfan" clip has me thinking they do not qualify for even "reasonable doubt" in the least.


It really was...awful.



Halasían said:


> Ok.
> After the Peter Jackson rape of Lord of the Rings, a full book mind you... and nothing I saw in that snippet has really gone beyond anything worse than 'elves in Helms Deep' or 'lunatic Denethor' territory.


While those (and the Ents deciding against fighting Saruman) are truly horrible, they are much smaller changes compared to the setting level changes that this series seems to be making. Agree to disagree I guess.

Speaking of Galadriel, Warrior Princess, here's a pic someone did of that concept a while back by Sara M. Morello:


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## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 4, 2022)

Halasían said:


> Ok.
> After the Peter Jackson rape of Lord of the Rings, a full book mind you, the mold was cast to pretty much make up what you want when there _is_ source content, let alone incomplete parts of story. Like I said before and in multiple places, I'm willing to give them a wide berth here, and nothing I saw in that snippet has really gone beyond anything worse than 'elves in Helms Deep' or 'lunatic Denethor' territory. The whole 'Armoured Galadriel' thing is clearly a hat-tip to Peter Jackson's vision.... in case anyone forgot....
> 
> 
> View attachment 11988


Peter Jackson shows Galadriel in a way, from which i think, Tolkien would have totally love it, if he could see it. 
Peter Jackson would never have shown Galadriel as a brainless warrior princess, which only has the goal to chase and kill Orks. Galadriel is wise, brave, good, and she is not someone who fight with a sword in a "Xena"-way.
i am shocked what they do in the serie with Galadriel.....they make a second Daenerys of her.....that is not Tolkiens Galadriel.



ZehnWaters said:


> It really was...awful.
> 
> 
> While those (and the Ents deciding against fighting Saruman) are truly horrible, they are much smaller changes compared to the setting level changes that this series seems to be making. Agree to disagree I guess.
> ...



What a horrible picture, i totally dislike it,to see Galadriel as a warrior princess with could eyes in armor. 🥶
I prefer to see Galadriel like this:


I think, that fits perfect to Galadriel, i dont think, that she is a warrior princess, like some pictures and the serie show her. I dont think, Tolkien had saw her as a warrior.


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## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 4, 2022)

Firinne Gile said:


> Really horrible, it looks like those betrayed women who want to kill their boyfriends. I also prefer classic illustrations.
> 
> View attachment 12002
> View attachment 12003





Firinne Gile said:


> Really horrible, it looks like those betrayed women who want to kill their boyfriends. I also prefer classic illustrations.
> 
> View attachment 12002
> View attachment 12003
> View attachment 12004



Very beautiful pictures....the third i know, it is from the illustrated version of "Lord of the Rings"; which i read again and again and this is my favorite illustration in the book💕

I guess, Tolkien was inspired by the "Túatha de Danann", the elves from ancient irish-celtic legends, which looked like this:



And i guess, the producers of the Amazon Series was inspired more by this: 😭😢


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## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 4, 2022)

Firinne Gile said:


> No, they are not. Xena at least has personality and was very beautiful.
> View attachment 12007
> 
> Poor Morfydd has no personality and is completely disheveled and without spirit. Their inspiration for "Galadriel" is someone else, the typical arrogant and unloved modern heroines without any femininity and with a rude behavior.
> ...



Yes, that is really horrible...that the producers of the series use Marvel Movies(which i all totally dislike) as inspiration 🥶

Or maybe this woman from "Thor Part 3" was their inspiration? A real horrible movie....believe me, it is not worth to watch....Thor in space...with space ships...totally absurd.
Why does every producers of our days think, that a woman need a sword in the hands to show emanzipation?
I really cant understand this.




And even in Children movies they bring such "the warrior woman with the sword" thing:


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## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 4, 2022)

Firinne Gile said:


> A woman's greatest power is and will always be convincing through calm, powerful words and sweet, kind and charming behavior.


Yes, that is very true


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## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 4, 2022)

Firinne Gile said:


> There is even a dialogue between Galadriel and Celeborn and she convinces her husband with wisdom and not brutality. But you see, the modern incentive is for women to behave like bad men, not even the good kind.


Yes, Galadriels biggest strenght is her wisdom, and in Tolkiens Middle Earth, she had never a sword i her hand.
This horrible serie is made for Marvel Fans in Teenage age. And they give the warrior princess Galadriel this braid, because that reminds the young Teenage girl on their latest Idol, ice queen Elsa.
Galadriels eyes are so icy cold in this serie, i totally dislike that, there is not the warm expression i can see in her eyes in Peter Jacksons movies.
And Galadriel would never take a sword and guiding an army to go killing a lot of Orks. Even when the Orks did harm to her daughter, she didnt do that revenge. I dont like the angryness and hate, which the Amazon-Galadriel radiate. For me that is a reason to not watcht the serie.
And in the serie there is the star-symbol of Feanor, Galadriels uncle, on her armor.
And that is totally absurd, because in the Silmarillion you could read, that Galadriel can see in the heart of her uncle a lot of malice, and dislike him very much....and he was the only one or her relatives, which was not allowed to touch her hair.
It is totally impossible, that she fights in his name in his armor, because she didnt like him and his war ambitions.

The Amazon-Galadriel looks like Ice Queen Fans on a Cosplay:


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## Halasían (Mar 4, 2022)

LadyGaladriel1980 said:


> Yes, Galadriels biggest strenght is her wisdom, and in Tolkiens Middle Earth, she had never a sword i her hand.
> This horrible serie is made for Marvel Fans in Teenage age. And they give the warrior princess Galadriel this braid, because that reminds the young Teenage girl on their latest Idol, ice queen Elsa.
> Galadriels eyes are so icy cold in this serie, i totally dislike that, there is not the warm expression i can see in her eyes in Peter Jacksons movies.
> And Galadriel would never take a sword and guiding an army to go killing a lot of Orks. Even when the Orks did harm to her daughter, she didnt do that revenge. I dont like the angryness and hate, which the Amazon-Galadriel radiate. For me that is a reason to not watcht the serie.
> ...




Nice artwork!

Speaking of Galadriel, what happened The Moon Man and his many dissertations on how Galadriel was Tolkien's worst character?


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## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 4, 2022)

Firinne Gile said:


> View attachment 12019View attachment 12020
> 
> It doesn't look like it, it's impressively the same. It's sad how they reduced Galadriel to an angry teenager with no soul in her eyes, just like the new Tiktok generation. Dark times where people with so much money and power destroy everything they see ahead like wretched Orcs.


They made a Galadriel for teenagers, which have watched the Ice Queen in cinemas a few years ago....not for Tolkiens Fans. The Amazon Galadriel has no soul, no personality, no charisma...it is just another fighting warrior woman, like already exist in a lot of movies....they are all interchangeable because they are so similar. There is nothing from the wise, peaceful, charming Galadriel we Tolkienfans love so much.
No one will remember the Amazon Serie in 100 years, it will be long forgotten then, but people will know und love still Tolkiens books and Peter Jacksons movies in 100 years.

And i found this, picture, it seems, that it is also from the Series:

Here Galadriel again has this horrible ice cold eyes, and she is in the water.....what does she do there? Will she have Sex in the water? Or is she swimming to another battlefield?
This serie is so disgusting....they spit totally on the Galadriel, that Tolkien had created.
This cold eyes...she always look so creey cold and her eyes are full of anger and hate....

Or maybe this scene show the fall of Numenor(where Galadriel wasnt at the Silmarillion)?

*I can only say one thing to that: The Amazon Galadriel is not my Galadriel! Tolkiens Galadriel ist the Galadriel i love and admire. And..Peter Jacksons Galadriel of course. *


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## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 18, 2022)

Firinne Gile said:


> @Annatar, I would like to say that my thread about Annatar's arrive has been deleted and all conversations will no longer be visible. Censorship started here too and that's why I'll be leaving the forum. I will only return if it is possible and very necessary. Thank you for your messages and I congratulate you on your way of thinking. I'm disappointed in how things are resolved here without any respect and consideration for the user.


Yes, a lot of my postings have been deleted, only because i have written, that i am totally angry, that the Amazon-producers represent elves and dwarfes in the absolutely wrong way(you all know, what i mean, but the moderators dont allow me to write what i mean)
For me elves and dwarfes must look like Tolkien describe then, and not very very very very different from that
It is really sad, that nowhere is allowed to critisize this big heap of trash, that Amazon produce with abuse Tolkiens Name for something, that is not Tolkiens work and not in Tolkiens sense.
And please, dont go, if you go, the censorship will win. I will not stop to critisize this horrible serie, it is necessary, that fans say openly, how much they despise this heap of cheap trash, that Amazon produces there. 
This serie will be like beeing in school and have a day with very, very, boring teachers. 
This serie will be a big fail, i am sure, they will stop it after season 2, it will end like "Wheel of time" a totally fail.


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## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 18, 2022)

Firinne Gile said:


> I recommend that everyone who is suffering censorship go to TheOnering.com Forum, there is no censorship there. The basis of a forum is discussion, but when those who filter the conversations don't accept other points of view, the forum simply dies. I say no to all of Ted Sandyman's disciples!


Thank you for the link, and there really is no censurship, and i can say openly, why i totally dislike the Amazon heap of trash?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Mar 18, 2022)

You said so here -- many times. Some of the threads became, not merely repetitious, but toxic.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Mar 18, 2022)

Yup it's not censoring when you're posting images with inappropriate language and doing nothing but criticizing actors/actresses for the color of their skin. Not calling anyone here racist and I don't have a problem with criticizing the series, I have problems with it too. The threads that were closed were just repeating the same drivel over and over and becoming toxic.

If you want to discuss and criticize the series that's always allowed. TTF's never allowed political discussion, that didn't just become a thing when this series started.


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## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 18, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> Yup it's not censoring when you're posting images with inappropriate language and doing nothing but criticizing actors/actresses for the color of their skin. Not calling anyone here racist and I don't have a problem with criticizing the series, I have problems with it too. The threads that were closed were just repeating the same drivel over and over and becoming toxic.
> 
> If you want to discuss and criticize the series that's always allowed. TTF's never allowed political discussion, that didn't just become a thing when this series started.


Sure it is censorship, if you delete all posts, in which user write, why they dislike the fact, that Amazon produces Lord of the rings far away from Tolkiens work.
I didnt use an inapprobiate language, i have just critisized the fact, that Amazon
totally ignore the fact about what skin elves and dwarfes have in Tolkiens book. That is no racism, that is the normal annoyance of a Tolkienfan, which is very shocked, that Amazon abuse Tolkiens name for produce this heap of trash.
I is absolutely not political, if i critisize the fact, that Amazon ignore the skin of Tolkiens elves and dwarfes and show them in a very wrong way, which has nothing to do with Tolkiens work. 
It is not racism and it is not political, if you are very annoyed about how Amazon ignore the look of Tolkiens elves and dwarfes.


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## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 18, 2022)

Firinne Gile said:


> It wasn't me who wrote the inappropriate words and you could have just warned me to withdraw or hide the message. You told me yourself that you deleted it from other people's messages in my thread. I never talked about anyone's skin color. You should know that even the Amazon series is involved in political issues and you can hide in a bubble but the real world is out there.


They also have delete a post of mine, where i have written, that the Amazon-Galadriel looks like a cheap Jeanne Darc. That was also no inapprobiate language, that was the truth. And the word cheap is no inapprobiate word, it perfectly describe, what Amazon made of Galadriel. 
And it i not political, if we all critisize the sad fact, that Amazon totally ignore how Tolkien described elves and dwarfes in his books. i am totally angry, that this moderation here says, that is political.
And how should we discuss about a serie, which is produce by a company, that only produces movies and series with a political agenda?


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## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 18, 2022)

Firinne Gile said:


> We can't, that's what he means. We can't say what we think and I'm not going to stand here humiliating myself and writing only what is approved. Who wants to find me in the other forum my username has the same name and also the photo.


Yes, it is a big shame, that they delete our posts, only because we write the truth. It is really disgusting, how people here defend this big heap of trash, that Amazon has produce and abuse Tolkiens name for making money with it 😡
This serie looks like "Bridgerton" and "Wheel of time": very different from the book, with disrespectful about how the authors of this books have describe their figures. Such big heaps of trash are not worth to watch by fans of this books.
And they have also taken the Amazon-posts from the "Latest Posts" list, that is also a total ridiculous censorship.


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## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 18, 2022)

Firinne Gile said:


> This is beyond saving. They cannot see how they are helping to build a monster that will devour them and soon what they are doing to the users will be done to them. Goodbye @LadyGaladriel1980 , I'll wait for you on the other forum to discuss our ideas and be treated with respect and civility.


I have registered there a few minutes ago, (same name as here) but i got the message "your account has not been validated. Have you also get this message? I hope, we will see in the other forum soon.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Mar 18, 2022)

Please continue this conversation via PM.

The thread is for discussion of the topic.


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## Annatar (Mar 18, 2022)

Firinne Gile said:


> @Annatar, I would like to say that my thread about Annatar's arrive has been deleted and all conversations will no longer be visible.



Deleting complete threads where many people with different opinions had invested a lot of time and emotions is of course an absolute no-go.
There should be other options for the moderators. So now it looks like all people who criticize the series are muzzled here as soon as the other side (joined by the moderators) runs out of arguments. I've had enough of that.
See you at theonering.com, thanks for the tip.


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## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 18, 2022)

Firinne Gile said:


> I would just like to register the hundreds of messages in their respective languages that are being sent in the trailers of the Amazon series from several countries with the phrase: “Evil is not able to create anything new, it can only distort and destroy what has been invented or made by the forces of good” - JRR Tolkien. At the moment most of the messages are from Russian viewers and secondly Americans. This is not just a conscious and subconscious phrase to reflect what people are feeling and seeing, but to numerically record the huge amount of people who are not approving of Amazon's investment. Here are some pictures of the comments shown at the top that can be found at the bottom of the pages. Unlike yesterday, positive comments were drowned out.View attachment 11680
> View attachment 11681
> View attachment 11682
> View attachment 11683
> ...


The Amazon-Serie is a big heap of trash, and a lot of people can already see that in the trailer. It is good, that so much people dislike this horrible serie, which abuse Tolkiens Name for creating a monster.



Annatar said:


> Deleting complete threads where many people with different opinions had invested a lot of time and emotions is of course an absolute no-go.
> There should be other options for the moderators. So now it looks like all people who criticize the series are muzzled here as soon as the other side (joined by the moderators) runs out of arguments. I've had enough of that.
> See you at theonering.com, thanks for the tip.


On the german website this censorship was also, they locked my account only, because i have critisize this horrible serie. 
I am very sad, that here also is such a censorship, that forbits people to say the truth. and the truth is, that all elves and dwarfes in Tolkiens book are white. 
So why they forbid us to say the truth here?


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## Halasían (Mar 18, 2022)

Annatar said:


> See you at theonering.com, thanks for the tip.


I'm sure Jonathan Watson, the tweet behind @TORc, will welcome you to TORc with open arms. It used to be a good place for roleplaying twenty years ago. "I was banned for life" from there a couple decades ago. 🤣 
Enjoy yourselves!


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## Olorgando (Mar 18, 2022)

@Annatar , @Firinne Gile , @LadyGaladriel1980 : just read the site rules. We're all mazzly's guests here, in case you've forgotten. At least Annatar and LadyGaladriel1980 should be familiar with the German term "Hausrecht". A host, in this case mazzly, and those whom he entrusts with keeping order, in this case the moderators, in his "house", here TTF, have every right to enforce those rules, including the right to eviction. End of message.


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## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 19, 2022)

Firinne Gile said:


> I made a new registration. Here everything was fine. Check the information and your email box.


So, i have tried my registration again, and get this message now:


The administrator has not yet validated your account. You will be notified by e-mail when the account has been validated.

I hope, that my account soon will be validated. I am "GaladrielOfLorien" there.



Olorgando said:


> @Annatar , @Firinne Gile , @LadyGaladriel1980 : just read the site rules. We're all mazzly's guests here, in case you've forgotten. At least Annatar and LadyGaladriel1980 should be familiar with the German term "Hausrecht". A host, in this case mazzly, and those whom he entrusts with keeping order, in this case the moderators, in his "house", here TTF, have every right to enforce those rules, including the right to eviction. End of message.


So this is no democratic site, where people can write free their opinion? So you allow here only wokeness-loving postings?
What a pitty, that the freedom of opinion dont count here. 
What is a house worth, if the people who are inside, cant say their opinion free?


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## m4r35n357 (Mar 19, 2022)

_Please_ let the door hit your arses on the way out, you poor dears.


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## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 19, 2022)

m4r35n357 said:


> _Please_ let the door hit your arses on the way out, you poor dears.


Poor are those ones, who really think, that Amazons big heap of trash is in the sense of Tolkien. Tolkien would have been very shocked and sad, if he could see, what Amazon made of his genious books.


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## m4r35n357 (Mar 19, 2022)

LadyGaladriel1980 said:


> Poor are those ones, who really think, that Amazons big heap of trash is in the sense of Tolkien. Tolkien would have been very shocked and sad, if he could see, what Amazon made of his genious books.


If you think I am one of those then you have only been posting and not reading. QED.


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## HALETH✒🗡 (Mar 19, 2022)

@Firinne Gile, it's a pity that you are going to leave. Why don't you stay with us and post in the threads that are not connected with the series if you don't accept how Amazon is treated here? Personally, I don't like the series but I like TTF. And I have one more point. There is no doubt that it's important to outline the problems that arise with "The Rings of Power", but anti-Pr is a kind of Pr too.


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## HALETH✒🗡 (Mar 19, 2022)

Firinne Gile said:


> Do you understand that entire replies and threads are being deleted because admins don't like how *users* treat the Amazon series @HALETH✒🗡?


My replies and threads have never been deleted yet, though I don't worship Amazon.
I'm just trying to say that I don't want to lose you and that I'm sure you've got a lot of pleasure thanks to TTF.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Mar 19, 2022)

No, do YOU understand because replies and threads are being deleted because some of them are becoming borderline racist, not that I really think anyone here is actually racist. Criticizing the series is fine, talking about the plot being stupid or wrong is fine, saying that you don't like the story that a characters being given, such as Galadriel, is fine. What's not fine is when you start whining that there's black elves and that black skin is tarnishing Tolkien's works. Maybe he never wrote that there's black elves and Amazon is going to put a stain on people's perception of the books (undeservedly of course) but the point of this forum is to discuss the series's content not the color of the actors' skin and whether the series is politically woke or not. SES and I have posted multiple times about how we have issues with the series and how we know it won't be a perfect Tolkien adaptation (I doubt there ever will be).

Those rules about politics were here on TTF long before the series was ever dreamt of so quit saying you're being censored all of a sudden. We've ALWAYS removed political, religion and inappropriate posts and comments, it didn't just start recently with this series. And locking/deleting threads is the last thing that any of us staff want to do, we want open discussion, within the means of the forum rules but when things get out of hand, we take action at our discretion. This isn't a democracy, we try to be as fair as we can be and respect everyone's opinion, but when it goes too far then we do what we have to. If that's too much to ask, as others stated, you can try your luck on other forums though I've seen similar "censorship" there as well.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Mar 19, 2022)

Firinne Gile said:


> Please quote a comment I made about the actors' skin.


I didn't call you out specifically for that anywhere in my post, though I do see where the way I worded it could be meant that way and I apologize. What I meant was you're saying we're deleting threads and comments for criticizing the series, we're not. We're locking/deleting threads that go against the forum rules, which have been around long before this series came about.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Mar 19, 2022)

You've been allowed to make this criticism, and have made it repeatedly, on several threads. We get the point; there's no need to keep repeating it.


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## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 19, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> You've been allowed to make this criticism, and have made it repeatedly, on several threads. We get the point; there's no need to keep repeating it.


You have warned me, only because i critisize the misstakes that Amazon make, and that are a lot of misstakes. That ist totally censorship, that you forbid the users here to discuss about the political propaganda with which the Amazon-producers totally ruin Tolkiens genious work. 
This serie is horribly political, it is full of wokeness-propaganda, and there is nothing from Tolkiens books, Amazon did totally ignore Tolkiens work. 
It is censorship, if you dont allow the users here, to critisize the fact, that Tolkiens elves, dwarfes and hobbits are all white. That is no racism to say that, it is a fact, which you cant ignore.


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## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 19, 2022)

Firinne Gile said:


> Am I allowed, Führer? Do something more productive @Erestor Arcamen, delete the Amazon section completely, so your ideas (what you call rules) won't be contradicted ever again. Be happy here in the concentration camp. I'm leaving.


And i am leaving with you, this here reminds me to much on the intolerant"Tolerance Camp" in "South Park"


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## Erestor Arcamen (Mar 19, 2022)

As this thread hasn't discussed the teaser trailer for at least a page or two, it's now locked.


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