# Elrond's Standing in M-E



## grendel (Jan 4, 2020)

This might seem like a dumb question, and I apologize if it has been hashed out in previous threads, but... I find no evidence that Elrond had ever been to Valinor before taking the ship with Gandalf and Frodo and Galadriel and the rest of his posse. He was born in Sirion, half-elven son of Earendil; kidnapped by Maedhros and Maglor in Beleriand; was witness to the War of Wrath; participated in the Last Alliance; made an appearance in the finding of the Ring and in the War of the Ring... all of which took place in Middle-Earth. So what, I hear you asking. So why would he necessarily have "great power against both the Seen and Unseen" if he had never dwelt in the Blessed Realm? What made him the de facto King of the Elves still east of the sea?


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## Alcuin (Jan 4, 2020)

That’s not a dumb question: It’s a darn good question! 

You’re right: Elrond had never been to Valinor, but had spent his entire life, about 6500 years, in Middle-earth. 

After the death of Gil-galad, Elrond and his children were the only living descendents among the Eldar of the Three Kings of the Eldar remaining in Middle-earth. He was a descendent of Finwë, High King of the Noldor, and Indis, daughter of the sister of Ingwë, High King of the Vanyar, and their elder son Fingolfin, half-brother of Fëanor who inherited the High Kingship of the Noldor in Middle-earth after Fëanor died and his son Maedhros was rescued from Thangorodrim by his closest friend, Fingolfin’s son Fingon. He was also a descendent of Elu Thingol of Doriath through his foremother Lúthien. He was descended of the Chieftains of the House of Bëor through Beren and his son Dior Eluchíl, seems to have been only descendent of the Chieftains of the Haladin (the House of Haleth or Second House of the Edain), and was also one of the only living descendents of Galdor, whose sons were Húrin and Huor. 

Elrond’s brother Elros also shared this distinction: Elros was recognized as rightful head of the Third House after his and Elrond’s father Eärendil elected to be counted among the Eldar: Eärendil’s father was Tuor son of Huor, who inherited that position with the demise of Túrin son of Húrin, though Tuor never fulfilled that designation. Elros and his descendents were the Kings of Númenor, the Lords of Andúnië, and the Kings of Arnor and Gondor. 

Elrond’s children were, besides their grandmother Galadriel, also the only descendants in Middle-earth of Thingol’s brother Olwë, High King of the Teleri in Eldamar, the coastland of Valinor populated by the Sea Elves.

So Elrond’s nobility and lineage were matched only by his elder brother, Elros. 

The people whom Gandalf describes as
“…lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. ... [T]hose who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power,”​is immediately followed by Frodo’s query,
“I … saw a white figure that shone and did not grow dim like the others. Was that Glorfindel…?”​Gandalf replies,
“Yes, you saw him … as he is upon the other side: one of the mighty of the Firstborn. He is an Elf-lord of a house of princes.”​Based upon this conversation, I cannot say whether this includes Elrond or not. I will point out that of the five people who fought Sauron on the slopes of Orodruin, none of them had ever been to Valinor. Gil-galad was probably born in Nargothrond. Círdan was ancient, as old as Elu Thingol his kinsman and the other ancient High Kings of the Eldar, possibly older, but he had never left Middle-earth. Elrond was born at the Mouths of Sirion, as you have pointed out. Elendil and his son Isildur were born in Númenor. Gil-galad and Elrond overcame Sauron, and Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from his hand. 

But the phrase, “those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power,” seems to refer primarily to Glorfindel. If so, it would also apply to Galadriel, and perhaps to Gildor, among others. I cannot say whether it includes Elrond or Círdan, though they in companionship with others proved themselves quite capable of dealing with Sauron.


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## Olorgando (Jan 5, 2020)

For one thing, Elrond (and through Elros at a very long remove Aragorn) was also partially of Maia descent, 1/16th through great-great-grandmother Melian. That is a big step even above Ingwë, accounted High King of all the Eldar (kind of an Eldar Emperor) even above the High Kings of the Noldor and Teleri, as Melian appears to have been one of the Maiar with the greatest powers, perhaps on a par with Eonwë, Ossë, Uinen and Sauron.

I one sense Arwen even tops her Father. While he (and Elros) had already gathered all of the Three Houses of the Edain in their ancestry, as well as Noldor and Vanyar royalty plus Elu Thingol of the Teleri, through Grandmother Galadriel she is also related to the second King of the Teleri, the Valinorean one, Olwë. And to a to me (and not just me) mysterious younger brother of Elwë (Thingol) and Olwë, one Elmo, supposed to be the grandfather of Arwen's maternal grandfather, Celeborn.

And then there's Arwen and Aragorn's son Eldarion (and some sisters?), with all of that ancestral baggage, plus being the one to reunite the lines of Elrond and Elros in himself.
I've also occasionally wondered how Eldarion, at least as a kid, dealt with this highly unusual situation: there's his maternal gandpa Elrond; whom he can't really have known, as Elrond left Middle-earth a bit over two years after Arwen and Aragorn were married. So gandpa has a brother, which makes this guy his grand-uncle - but also his great etc. grandfather at the remove of perhaps more than 70 generations!!! That's a weird family tree!
No mention is made in any of my lexicons of the date of Eldarion's birth. Now Aragorn and Arwen had "plighted their troth" in Lothlórien in 2980 Third Age (when he was 49), where Aragorn had entered probably for some rest from his errands, and Arwen was spending time with grandma Galadriel. Meaning the two had been engaged for 39 years before getting married. Aragorn was then 88, and Arwen 2778 ...
But they did mange to celebrate (I'm assuming) their 122nd wedding anniversary before Aragorn relinquished his life. 122 years, and this is a coincidence, is precisely the age that the oldest person for whom reliable records exist has ever lived: Jeanne Calment of France, 21 February 1875 – 4 August 1997. So she was 17 years older than JRRT, but outlived him by about 24 years …


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jan 5, 2020)

Alcuin said:


> But the phrase, “those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power,” seems to refer primarily to Glorfindel.


That would seem to be the logical conclusion, and though unstated, it's good to keep in mind that the way Frodo saw him, under the influence of the Morgul poison, would have been how the Nazgul saw him -- in fact, he probably blazed even more brightly, even painfully so.

It also helps explain Gandalf's words to Elrond:

_'Even if you choose for us an Elf-lord, such as Glorfindel, he could not storm the Dark Tower, nor open the road to the Fire by the power that is in him.'_

The connection is there, but I failed to make it until I read the drafts, one of which makes it explicit. I'm sorry I don't have access to them at the moment, so I can cite neither quote nor volume, but it's made clear that Glorfindel in Mordor would be like a shining beacon. Can't have that. Legolas was a much safer choice, elf-wise.

"The other side" always struck me as ambiguous; the other side of what? The Sea? "Life"?

🎵 "Always look on the bright side of life". 🎶😚


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## Olorgando (Jan 6, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> "The other side" always struck me as ambiguous; the other side of what? The Sea? "Life"?


Hypothesis: from our very limited human viewing capabilities, the "other side" of the "fëa-hröa" duality?

The visible "bodily forms" that the Valar and Maiar took (perhaps not all of the latter did) are stated by JRRT as being more like our clothing to them. Thus the shape-shifting ability "recorded" for some of them. Humans (and possibly the vast majority of Elves) were normally only able to see the visible hröa. Galadriel's being able to discern the darkness in Fëanor's character even in Valinor may have marked her out as having special abilities even among Elves, to at least glimpse aspects of another's fëa. Being tutored by Melian during the First Age may have heightened this. Glorfindel seems to the the only "resurrected Elf" to ever return to Middle-earth after his stay in the Halls of Mandos, giving him quite unique abilities.

That the Nazgûl's hröa became invisible (but as Merry and Éowyn proved, not invulnerable) must be seen as the continuing efforts by Morgoth and Sauron to pervert what is natural in Eä as far as they can. For the Elves, JRRT at least leaves the door open to the speculation that the fact that we do not see even any of the Avari anymore (besides the usual suspect of genocide) might be due to it lying in their nature that, thousands of years having passed since the fall of Barad-dûr, the Elven hröa would also wraithe, become invisible, if for different reasons (something that would be quite handy to escape humankind's well-documented tendency to murderous xenophobic rages).

Frodo was on the border of these two "sides", giving him sight of the true form of the Nazgûl, something that Glorfindel (and perhaps Galadriel and Elrond) was (were) able to do due to his (their) "dual sight" abilities.


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## grendel (Jan 7, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> 🎵 "Always look on the bright side of life". 🎶😚



Okay, THAT made me laugh!

Olorgando, thank you for your well-researched reply... good lord, those Elvish family trees are worse than the British royals! I can see now why this was an evolving universe that took the better part of fifty years to finalize, if indeed it is final.

I have never delved into the HoME volumes, but I am thinking maybe I should try... there seems to be a lot of developmental information in them. Advice?


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## Olorgando (Jan 8, 2020)

grendel said:


> Olorgando, thank you for your well-researched reply... good lord, those Elvish family trees are worse than the British royals! I can see now why this was an evolving universe that took the better part of fifty years to finalize, if indeed it is final.


"Final version" and JRRT did not coexist in the same universe, is my impression. He just loved niggling and revising too much, and never seemed to stop having new ideas that made further niggling and revising necessary - an "unending story", so to speak. 

My main source for quick reference about who was related to whom and how has for a while been J.E.A. Tyler's "The Complete Tolkien Companion", originally from 1976, but in the "Foreword to the Third Edition" there is a mention of "... today, nearly forty years later …" than 1966, which would place this foreword around 2005. Under the item "Lines of Descent", besides two full pages of article content, there are also two two-page tables of descent, one for "The Eldar" and one for "The Edain". Then there's Appendix B to Robert Foster's "The Complete Guide to Middle-earth", eight pages of genealogical tables for human descent, Appendix C in RoTK with four pages of Hobbit family trees - Basically Frodo's, Pippin's, Merry's and Sam's, and last not least at the end of the published Sil five more pages of diverse stuff. British royals??? This makes the entire European aristocracy's "cross-breeding" since maybe Waterloo seem straight-forward!


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jan 8, 2020)

There's a brief rundown on HOME here:






The History of Middle-earth - Tolkien Gateway







tolkiengateway.net





That may give you some idea about what volumes might interest you. Mine lies mostly in LOTR itself, so I refer to the drafts quite often. They're invaluable for the development of the story, as Tolkien worked it out.

But have you read the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales? I'd start there.


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## Olorgando (Jan 8, 2020)

grendel said:


> I have never delved into the HoME volumes, but I am thinking maybe I should try... there seems to be a lot of developmental information in them. Advice?


I have mixed feelings about giving any such recommendation - now. My JRRT addiction stems from the middle of the 1980s, when perhaps only the two "Book of Lost Tales" volumes were available, in paperback at any rate. I can kind of follow the permutations of what was once George Allen & Unwin all the way to HarperCollins by just looking at the spines of my HoMe volumes - and vol. 12 is a Houghton Mifflin edition. So I basically read the HoMe volumes roughly as they were published - but not in an orderly year-by-year fashion, rather in bunches of books bought at the same time (an early 1990s vacation by own car to Ireland must have been the largest single haul, also of a lot of "about JRRT" books).

Now, looking at those twelve books (and I'm getting itchy to order, if it is still to be had, the 2002 "vol. 13", being the index to the actual 12 volumes published six years after the completion of the series), and imagining "I'm going to read those all until the end of this year 2020" … this could resemble JRRT "trying" to bring The Sil into a form fit to be published, but, besides some real debts he had incurred in writing LoTR, also delighted in "displacement activities" like writing 20-page or longer letters to people after the publication of LoTR - sometimes without sending them. Anyone complaining that The Sil is difficult should try to plow their way though any of the 12 volumes. I have definitely not read them all cover-to-cover. Starting with vol. 3 "Lays of Beleriand", as I'm just not such a big fan of poetry. And as a general rule, whenever Christopher Tolkien published stuff that might be understood by graduate (or postdoc???) students of philology, It was way over my head - so I skipped those parts. This is stuff that would pass the rigorous muster of research papers accepted for publication by respected periodicals whose seal of approval for what they publish can be quite a boost to the reputation of the authors of those articles.


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## Ron Simpson (Feb 24, 2021)

Alcuin said:


> Gil-galad and Elrond overcame Sauron



Not to split hairs, but I am not sure that this is technically correct. Elrond & Cirdan STOOD with Gilgalad, and they both BEHELD the final 3-way combat between Gilgalad, Elendil, & Sauron, but there is no record of Elrond (or Cirdan) dealing any blows in that encounter.



> I was the herald of Gil-galad and marched with his host. I was at the Battle of
> Dagorlad before the Black Gate of Mordor, where we had the mastery: for the Spear
> of Gil-galad and the Sword of Elendil, Aeglos and Narsil, none could withstand. I
> beheld the last combat on the slopes of Orodruin, where Gil-galad died, and Elendil
> ...


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## Alcuin (Feb 24, 2021)

Ron Simpson said:


> Not to split hairs, but I am not sure that this is technically correct. Elrond & Cirdan STOOD with Gilgalad, and they both BEHELD the final 3-way combat between Gilgalad, Elendil, & Sauron, but there is no record of Elrond dealing any blows in that encounter.


Point taken. But neither is there any indication that Elrond, Círdan, and Isildur were wallflowers merely watching while Gil-galad and Elendil pirouetted with Sauron: quite the opposite makes sense; besides, Isildur cut the Ring (and finger) from Sauron’s hand, indicating that he, at least, was prepared to fight, even with the hilt-shard of his father’s sword. 

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. No doubt Gil-galad and Elendil were the primary combatants against Sauron – after all, they were the ones who died; but also, I think, the others fought, too, and there is neither text to contradict that, nor reason to assume otherwise.


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## Ron Simpson (Feb 25, 2021)

> 'But at the last the siege was so strait that Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own. '
> *Of the Rings of Power & The Third Age / The Silmarillion*



-I think this gives a better picture of what really went down on that day. More and more, they do seem (to me) as mere observers to the actual fight.
-Gilgalad and Elendil engaged Sauron & threw him down, during which Gilgalad was burned to a crisp, and Elendil 'fell'. Then Isildur cut the ring from off an incapacitated, fallen Sauron.
-Also practically speaking, how would 4 individuals fight one enemy all at once? Would that not be a little crowded ? Further, wouldn't the three subordinates wait until their Kings charged in? 
-Finally, it doesn't seem that Isildur was spoiling to fight a Maiar with the hilt-shards of Narsil, especially when he undoubtedly had his own whole, unbroken sword. Seems more like: after Sauron was down for the count, he used the hilt-shards of Narsil to cut off the ring as a symbolic act of redress. You killed my Dad, and now I am going to do you the indignity of despoiling you with his sword. ("This I will have as wergild for my father, and my brother")

At least that's the way I see it .... 
(and boy-o-boy, this is the one bit of hand-to-hand combat that I would most love to have seen )


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## Ron Simpson (Feb 25, 2021)

Alcuin said:


> “…lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. ... Those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power,”


I have come across this concept in relation to fighting with Balrogs (but for the life of me, I cannot track down the reference). 
The passage stated (more or less) that the only individuals that ever managed to defeat these demons were those that had dwelt in Aman and had seen the light of the trees, or had a coffee with Manwe or something such. (I guess it didn't include Tuor, who reputedly killed 5 of them during the Fall of Gondolin)


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## Alcuin (Feb 25, 2021)

Ron Simpson said:


> -I think this gives a better picture of what really went down on that day. More and more, they do seem (to me) as mere observers to the actual fight.
> -Gilgalad and Elendil engaged Sauron & threw him down, during which Gilgalad was burned to a crisp, and Elendil 'fell'. Then Isildur cut the ring from off an incapacitated, fallen Sauron.
> -Also practically speaking, how would 4 individuals fight one enemy all at once? Would that not be a little crowded ? Further, wouldn't the three subordinates wait until their Kings charged in?


Quite the opposite. The most sensible – and safest – way to defeat a superior opponent with several people united to fight against him is to place the one or two strongest before him to fight face-to-face, while the others attack from the sides and behind. Remember, Barad-dûr had been besieged seven years, and Sauron broke out and was apparently attempting to reach the top of Orodruin (or more likely the Sammath Naur), probably to use the volcano against the armies of the Last Alliance. What it sounds like is that Gil-galad and Elendil stopped his progress up the slopes of Mt Doom, while Elrond, Círdan, and Isildur attacked him from the sides and behind. Elendil was killed outright, and Gil-galad soon died of his injuries _after_ the battle, while Sauron was stunned, but they did stop Sauron, and Isildur cut the Ring from his hand. 



Ron Simpson said:


> -Finally, it doesn't seem that Isildur was spoiling to fight a Maiar with the hilt-shards of Narsil, especially when he undoubtedly had his own whole, unbroken sword. Seems more like: after Sauron was down for the count, he used the hilt-shards of Narsil to cut off the ring as a symbolic act of redress. You killed my Dad, and now I am going to do you the indignity of despoiling you with his sword. ("This I will have as wergild for my father, and my brother")


Not if you consider the situation. I have argued in other threads on this forum and in other forums that Narsil was likely the mate to Aranrúth. We know that Narsil was forged by Telchar of Nogrod, and the Dwarves of Nogrod helped construct Menegroth for Elu Thingol and armed the Sindar with better weapons than they then possessed. It is likely, I believe, that Thingol’s sword Aranrúth was also forged by Telchar. Like the swords of Turgon of Gondolin, Glamdring was Turgon’s principal sword and Orcrist was its mate. (This was often true in the real world: a king or rich noble would have two swords as nearly identical as possible in case the principal sword was broken.) Aranrúth became the possession of Dior Eluchíl, was taken to Sirion for Elwing his daughter, and became the personal weapon of Elros and thus of the Kings of Númenor. Tar-Elendil probably gave Narsil, Aranrúth’s mate, to Silmariën or her son Valandil of Andúnië as a token of their royalty: the Lords of Andúnië were a cadet branch of the House of Eärendil, the “spare” or “fall-back” kings of Númenor just as Narsil was the spare or fall-back weapon in the event Aranrúth was lost or broken – as it was when Ar-Pharazôn carried it on his invasion of Valinor. 

Narsil was a superior to almost anything else Isildur could use: even its hilt-shard was exceptionally sharp. I suppose he might have used a weapon forged in Gondolin or Eldamar, but he used what was at hand, and it was ironic vengeance on Sauron to use his father’s sword to sever Sauron’s ring and finger, just as you suggest. But I think this was more than “You killed my Dad, and now I am going to do you the indignity of despoiling you with his sword.” Elendil and his sons knew about the Rings of Power: it was necessary to bring them into the Elves’ confidence in order to establish the Last Alliance of Elves and Men to bring about the defeat of Sauron. After all, the story of Isildur’s fall and “Isildur’s Bane” was known in Arnor, and it is most probable that the Ring-verse, “_Three rings for the Elven-kings…_” was an Arnorian Rhyme of Lore. Isildur knew he was despoiling Sauron of his most effective weapon, though he likely mistook the flight of Sauron's spirit for ultimate victory. 

But I do agree with you: I’d like to have witnessed this battle as well, or at least read more of Tolkien’s envisagement of it.


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## Ron Simpson (Feb 25, 2021)

Alcuin said:


> What it sounds like is that Gil-galad and Elendil stopped his progress up the slopes of Mt Doom, while Elrond, Círdan, and Isildur attacked him from the sides and behind. Elendil was killed outright, and Gil-galad soon died of his injuries _after_ the battle, while Sauron was stunned, but they did stop Sauron, and Isildur cut the Ring from his hand.


Where are the references for this? Obviously you are more than entitled to your point of view, however, I find a great deal of this difficult to square with published canon. But of course, I have not read anywhere near all there is to read. Are you getting this from JRR letters or margin notes? If so, please share.

1. 'Gil-galad soon died of his injuries after the battle': hmmm.... Isildur recorded that "the Ring misseth, maybe, the heat of Sauron’s hand, which was black and yet burned like fire, and so Gil-galad was destroyed ." The choice of that last word is curious & seems deliberate. It suggests (to me, at least) that what befell Gil-galad was a complete and immediate annihilation. Note the difference in word choice for what happened to the two champions: Elendil 'fell', but Gil-galad was 'destroyed'. It seems that each died in two very different ways: which maybe suggests why there was something left of Elendil to bury, and no mention is made of Gilgalad's remains or resting place. (I doubt they left their High King to rot in the Dead Marshes).

2. 'What it sounds like is that Gil-galad and Elendil stopped his progress up the slopes of Mt Doom', : again, is this speculative, or is there basis in canon? 

3.'while Elrond, Círdan, and Isildur attacked him from the sides and behind.' : Yet again, I have read nothing that suggests the event unfolded in that way. The accounts clearly state that only the two Kings (and no-one else) wrestled with Sauron : so I'll take the accounts as written. So, let's just agree to disagree on that one.


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## 1stvermont (Feb 25, 2021)

grendel said:


> Okay, THAT made me laugh!
> 
> Olorgando, thank you for your well-researched reply... good lord, those Elvish family trees are worse than the British royals! I can see now why this was an evolving universe that took the better part of fifty years to finalize, if indeed it is final.
> 
> I have never delved into the HoME volumes, but I am thinking maybe I should try... there seems to be a lot of developmental information in them. Advice?



Yes, go for the HOME especially Morgoths ring, the war of the jewels, and the peoples of ME. If you have not read Unifinshed tales, go for that as well.


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## Alcuin (Feb 26, 2021)

Ron Simpson said:


> Where are the references for this?


The best reference is Elrond’s oblique description at the “Council of Elrond” in _FotR_:
​Isildur … alone stood by his father in that last mortal contest; and by Gil-galad only Círdan stood, and I.​​To you, perhaps, that sounds as if Isildur, Círdan, and Elrond stood quietly aside with their thumbs in their mouths watching the combat, but to me, that implies they, too, participated in the combat. 



Ron Simpson said:


> 1. 'Gil-galad soon died of his injuries after the battle': hmmm.... didn't Isildur clearly record that "the Ring misseth, maybe, the heat of Sauron’s hand, which was black and yet burned like fire, and so Gil-galad was destroyed ." The use of that last word seems deliberate and suggests (to me, at least) that Gil-galad was incinerated or something such, and that his death was immediate. Again, pls share references, as I am always eager to learn more about this event....


I don’t agree. Elendil fell upon his sword and broke it: _that_ sounds to me like an immediate death. “Sauron’s hand … was black and yet burned like fire, and so Gil-galad was destroyed,” sounds to me as if Gil-galad died of burns, but of course, a man (or Elf) who is _being_ burned (or immediately after being badly burned) can for a short while continue with his activities until he collapses. To me, that sounds as if Gil-galad could well have survived the fighting but died soon after. 



Ron Simpson said:


> 2. 'What it sounds like is that Gil-galad and Elendil stopped his progress up the slopes of Mt Doom, : again, is this speculative, or is there basis in canon?


Well, Sauron didn’t reach his destination, did he? I propose the two people in front of his blocking his path were Gil-galad and Elendil. As for canon: what would you like? Gil-galad and Elendil are credited with stopping Sauron and fighting him to the death multiple times. Elrond, Círdan, and Isildur are not, even though Isildur cut the Ring from Sauron’s hand and vanquished him for that time, claiming to have delivered Sauron’s “death-blow”. 



Ron Simpson said:


> The accounts clearly state that only the two Kings (and no-one else) wrestled with Sauron : so I'll take the accounts as written. So, let's just agree to disagree on that one.


No, the texts do not say Gil-galad and Elendil “wrestled” Sauron, nor do they “clearly state that only the two Kings (and no-one else)” was involved. Elrond said (_ibidem_)
​[T]he Spear of Gil-galad and the Sword of Elendil, Aiglos and Narsil, none could withstand. I beheld the last combat on the slopes of Orodruin, where Gil-galad died, and Elendil fell, and Narsil broke beneath him; but Sauron himself was overthrown​​Why would Narsil break if Elendil was “wrestling” Sauron? No, I think the clear implication is that all the parties involved were armed and using weapons, including Sauron. *If I am wrong, you cite your reference.* That’s what you’ve asked of me, and it’s only fair that you play by the same rules. 

The information provided is sketchy at best. Tolkien often evades the nitty-gritty details of battles. We see a few: Weathertop, the confrontation between Éowyn and the Witch-king, Pippin’s experiences at the Black Gate, and so forth, but many are described quite sufficiently albeit far less graphically. The battle with the kings and champions against Sauron at Orodruin is one of these. 

Your vision of the battle, if I understand you correctly, is that Elrond, Círdan, and Isildur stood aside and watched the fight. And if I understand your last post correctly, Sauron killed Elendil (I agree: he “fell upon his sword and broke it,” and though I suppose that leaves you the option of saying Elendil then arose again and “wrestled” Sauron, I don’t suppose that’s what you have in mind), and Gil-galad burned to death (I agree: Gil-galad died of burns he suffered because of the heat of Sauron’s second body (I don’t know that his third and final incarnation had such heat)) but somehow either Gil-galad or Isildur “killed” Sauron. 

My vision of the battle has been built up over the past fifty years of reading _The Lord of the Rings_. I first read it nearly fifty years ago, and since then, I’ve read it two or three times a year. That doesn’t make me any more qualified to comment on this topic than you, and no, I have no special texts that I can cite to “prove” that the battle happened this way. It’s only that I’ve thought about it long and hard, and spoken to many other Tolkien readers, particularly friends in college. 

*What makes sense? What’s reasonable?* Is it reasonable to believe that Elrond, Círdan, and Isildur stood aside while Gil-galad and Elendil fought Sauron alone, or does it make better sense that the other three would try to help? Why are Gil-galad and Elendil essentially credited with the victory in the fight, even though both of them died? although in _Silmarillion_, “Of the Rings of Power”, Isildur claims the Ring with the words, “This I will have as were-gild for my father’s death, and my brother’s. Was it not I that dealt the Enemy his death-blow?” Returning to the “Council of Elrond”, Elrond said that – and I suppose this was immediately after Isildur cut the Ring from Sauron’s hand – “Then Sauron was vanquished and his spirit fled…” _I_ envision that Sauron’s body then disintegrated, vanished, what-have-you: it was gone, and though Isildur claimed the victory, neither Elrond nor Aragorn, Isildur’s Heir, seem to credit him with it. (Again if I’m wrong, tell me and cite the passage.) 

Once more, *what makes sense? what’s reasonable?* We aren’t given the details of the combat. You want to “square [this] with published canon,” and so do I. So what explanations “make sense”, are “reasonable”, and “square with published canon”? 

Well, first, it seems to me that _all five_ of the Good Guys present have to fight Sauron at once. The only way they can do that is to _surround him_, which means that some are in front, some are on the side, and probably one’s in the back. (Basic geometry. I wasn’t allowed to serve in the military, but I sure played a lot of D&D. “You hit the monster? Fred just hit the monster: he’s in front of it. You cast a spell from the back of the party last round. Where are you standing to hit him now, and how did you get there?”) First, though, they have to keep Sauron from getting to his destination on Orodruin, whatever that destination may be. So the two strongest and best-equipped characters are going to have to _get in front_ of Sauron and _take most of the damage._ Well, who would that be? Oh – Gil-galad and Elendil! (Basic logic.) We aren’t told what kind of weapon Sauron used, but Peter Jackson depicts him with a mace, and for once, I agree with him: that was Morgoth’s weapon, and we know (from Tolkien, footnote to _Letter_ 183) that Sauron depicted himself as Morgoth’s emissary in the Second Age and as Morgoth returned in the Third, so it’s “reasonable” – but not “provable” (at this point) that Sauron used a mace, too. (It’s not disprovable either.) Elendil fell on Narsil and broke it: sure sounds like he was whacked with _something_ – a mace, a sword, an axe, Sauron’s fist, Sauron’s foot (maybe Sauron knew krav maga or tae kwon do), we aren’t told what – it either killed him or knocked him unconscious, he fell on his sword, and it broke. He also died, presumably from that blow, but we can’t “prove” that, either: maybe he fell on the _point_ of the sword and died on his own blade: but that doesn’t seem a very satisfactory interpretation of the texts, since it would be similar to a “fumble” (in D&D terms: an unusual event causing self-damage, possible but unlikely), and besides, so unlikely a result would seem to call for an explicit declaration; but maybe not. Gil-galad died from burns he received from Sauron: everyone agrees on that (I hope) because _that_ is explicitly stated. 

At this point, we can disagree more. _I_ think that a burning Gil-galad skewered Sauron with Aiglos, rendering Sauron dazed or unconscious, and Isildur cut the Ring from an incognizant Sauron’s hand while Gil-galad died. Sauron’s body disintegrated/vanished/went up like smoke, and “his spirit fled”. The reason I think “a burning Gil-galad skewered Sauron with Aiglos” is that this is what Mordred did to King Arthur: he skewered Arthur with his spear, the skewered Arthur hewed Mordred to death with Excalibur, and both died: Mordred immediately, Arthur shortly thereafter. Tolkien was _very_ familiar with this story and wrote a long poem about it, a poem Christopher Tolkien published in 2013, _The Fall of Arthur_. I don’t have that book, I haven’t read it, but when I was a young man, the movie _Excalibur_ was in theaters, and that penultimate battle between Mordred and Arthur was depicted in all its gory glory. _There is no textual evidence for a burning Gil-galad skewering Sauron,_ at least not at this stage as far as I know. There is no textual evidence that Sauron’s body disintegrated/vanished/went up like smoke after Isildur cut the Ring from him, either, but that’s what makes sense to me; otherwise, it seems we have the Last Alliance rolling his body into Orodruin, cremating it, or burying it (that last seems a particularly bad idea); but all of those (it seems to me, at least) would require some mention, of which there is none; but as I pointed out before, “absence of evidence is not evidence of absence,” so those notions are all fair game. I just don’t think they “make sense” as well as Sauron’s body vanishing in some way when “his spirit fled.” 

*Now,* Ron Simpson, what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. If I’ve said something that doesn’t “square with published canon,” or doesn’t fit the officially published material that _isn’t_ canon (i.e., published posthumously, such as _Letters of JRR Tolkien_, _Silmarillion_, _Unfinished Tales_, _History of Middle-earth_, _Vinyar Tengwar_, _Parma Eldalamberon_ – as long as it’s _Tolkien’s_ writing or his son Christopher’s, not someone else’s opinion, though frankly I’d like to know that, too), *tell me.* Tell me what doesn’t fit: *cite the text,* which is what you asked me to do. _That’s only fair._ If there’s something I’ve missed or overlooked, I am willing to change my mind; I hope you approach this from the same perspective. I make mistakes, and I hope I am willing to admit them and correct them. 

And note: this reflects *no* animosity: I respect you and your opinions, which is largely why I took three hours to write a reply to your post. So, tell me where I fail to “square with published canon.” Cite your text. If it’s your opinion or your preference, that’s perfectly fair, too, just *say so,* and don’t demand I change my opinion or preference to match yours. And I’ll do the same. Fair enough?

───◊───
_added later_

While you’re at it, Ron, tell us how _you_ envision this battle playing out.


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## Ron Simpson (Feb 26, 2021)

> *Alcuin: No, the texts do not say Gil-galad and Elendil “wrestled” Sauron, nor do they “clearly state that only the two Kings (and no-one else)” was involved. Elrond said (ibidem)*


Umm, yes the texts DO say that. See below.



Alcuin said:


> *If I am wrong, you cite your reference.*


'But at the last the siege was so strait that Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own. '
_Of the Rings of Power & The Third Age / The Silmarillion_

That is an ACTUAL & direct reference from The Sil
-so, It does seem as if you are wrong



> *What makes sense? What’s reasonable? *


The bottom line is that I am not persuaded by your speculations/explanations in light of what is written in the actual texts. But of course, you are fully entitled to them.

You have twice written that "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence": but neither is it confirmation of existence. IMHO, that line of reasoning does nothing to protect the integrity of the entire body of work. 

So lets leave it where it lies and (as I said earlier) agree to disagree.

Best.......


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## Alcuin (Feb 26, 2021)

Ron Simpson said:


> 'But at the last the siege was so strait that Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own. '
> _Of the Rings of Power & The Third Age / The Silmarillion_
> 
> That is an ACTUAL & direct reference from The Sil
> -so, It does seem as if you are wrong


Yes, I am in error. Your citation is correct. I still reject what I perceive to be your view of the battle.


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## grendel (Feb 27, 2021)

1stvermont said:


> Yes, go for the HOME especially Morgoths ring, the war of the jewels, and the peoples of ME. If you have not read Unifinshed tales, go for that as well.


Thank you for the recommendation, 1stvermont! Actually I do have Unfinished Tales, which is what got my interest started in what lay beyond THE texts (LoTR and Hobbit).



Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> There's a brief rundown on HOME here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you, SES, I will look at that. I do have Unfinished Tales as I mentioned; and I have read The Silmarillion - boy, that was a slog! My favorite parts, the voyage of Earendil and the War of Wrath, seem woefully brief as compared with all those endless battles in Beleriand.


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## Elthir (Mar 2, 2021)

I never really thought about this battle in detail, but I too hadn't imagined Elrond or Cirdan actually fighting Sauron.

An early idea (The Return of the Shadow, At Rivendell) reads: *"And at last Sauron came out in person, and wrestled with Gil-galad, and Elendil came to his rescue, and both were mortally wounded; but Sauron was thrown down, and his bodily shape was destroyed."*

So that clears things up 

There's also this bit of note 11 to the Disaster of the Gladden Fields: *"Elendur, Isildur's heir and dear to him, had accompanied his father throughout the war (save the last challenge upon Orodruin) and he was in Isildur's full confidence."*

I realize that that doesn't necessarily mean we have a "challenge fight" here, though to sorta quote Dean Sanderson from the television show The Grinder: "But what if we did?"









If so, it could explain the "standing by" of the Elves and Isildur -- though that much said, while I can image Sauron challenging both Gil-galad and Elendil at once, for myself at least, I can't as easily imagine both agreeing to this.

Perhaps the standing-byers were told to do so by Gil-galad, with Elendil agreeing to include himself as well -- that is, say Sauron had challenged the Elven king who would, in any case, be around (life span wise) a lot longer than Elendil.

Add the Men (arguably) being more prone to break the "order" so to speak, and seeing Gil-galad in dire trouble* " . . . Elendil came to his rescue, and both were mortally wounded; but Sauron was thrown down, and his bodily shape was destroyed."* (Tolkien's early idea again).

Of course all present would want to help Gil-galad, but again, maybe the Elves had better control of their emotions at this horrible moment. And Isildur is first to the bodies too, rushing in after Sauron appears down and out -- with Sauron's spirit lingering with the One until it's physically cut from him.

Isildur's "Death blow" . . . in that sense.

In this case we have Sauron "destroying Elves and Men" in one sense -- embodied by the two great characters Gil-galad and Elendil -- but being destroyed by them as well of course, adding the loss of the One and the needed eyewitnesses (if few) to know what Isildur did -- considering Boromir's part in this conversation in Rivendell with respect to what actually happened to the One here.

*Or* for a different scenario: maybe the standing-byers were simply not close enough to take part when Sauron engaged both Gil-galad and Elendil.


*Or something different* 🐾


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## Ron Simpson (Mar 2, 2021)

Elthir, I think you nailed it: 

I have always struggled to make sense of this episode _within the context of the familiar citations_, but your ‘new’ reference, taken along with the account from ‘The Sil’ puts it in a whole new light.


> “But at the last the siege was so strait that Sauron himself came forth….” *The Silmarillion*
> “And at last Sauron came out in person….” *The Return of the Shadow*


From both opening fragments, it sounds as if Sauron was furious about being besieged and came out to exact his revenge up-close & personal. If so, it would make sense that he directly challenged Gil-galad to single combat, the High-King being the highest-value scalp of all the host. It also fits that (according to their code of honour) Gil-galad would have personally accepted the challenge on behalf of both elves & men, and further, out of respect for the King, all others would have stood-down.

The part about 'Elendil coming to his rescue' also fits nicely, b/c we can well imagine that the highly aware & sensitive Elves would have been instantly alerted to Sauron's presence on the slope and immediately gone out to confront him, and that Men would have been much slower to respond and 'late to the party' so to speak.

This all fits very nicely ('neat as neat' - as Samwise might say), and I can now stop tossing and turning at night. I am in your debt.....


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