# Goldberry River Daughter??



## reem (Feb 21, 2003)

when they say that Goldberry is the River daughter are they talking figuratively?? does bombadil call her that because he found her by the river? 
reem


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 21, 2003)

We'll never know what is meant for sure. Some have said that it means she is the daughter of Ossë and Uinen (Maiar of Ulmo, the water "God"), but it is not possible for two Maiar to have children.
We'll just have to take the "river daughter" literally and assume she is some kind of nature spirit.


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## reem (Feb 21, 2003)

but do nature spirits EAT??! and do other stuff as well? i think it's would be more likely to assume that she's called that becuse she was first found by the river. but then the question of 'who is she and where did she come from?' comes up.
reem


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## Lantarion (Feb 21, 2003)

The issue of Goldberry has been a subject of debate for almost as long as Bombadil; and so far a conclusive answer has not been found, as far as I know. 
I've taken the title of "River-daughter" to be literal, in the sense that she was somehow born from the river.. But this is in direct conflict with just about everything in Tolkien's world. After all, every other character or person is categorized in some form or another: Adan, Elda, Dwarf, Hobbit, etc. (under which other categories, such as "Black Númenórean", fall under). ´The only character whose 'race' is never explicitly stated or even hinted at is Tom Bombadil, whereas some vague picture of Goldberry's heritage is given by her title.
I know think that it is more *likely* that she was some sort of undefined 'spirit', because Arda is (or was, rather) filled with magical and strange things; but I find it more '*realistic*' that she was found by the river, and thus got her title. But where is she from then??


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## redline2200 (Feb 21, 2003)

I read avery interesting article on the origin of Bombadil and Goldberry that suggests that they were Aule and Yavanna incarnated.
I know you are probably thinking that that is crazy, but please read the article before you dismiss it! It can be found here: 
http://www.cas.unt.edu/~hargrove/bombadil.html

It is rather long, but I promise it is well worth the time! I think that this guy has a very interesting argument...


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## jimmyboy (Feb 21, 2003)

In _The Adventures of Tom Bombadil_ it tells a bit of where Tom found Goldberry. She was said to be with her mother under (or in, I don't remember) the river, and that after a bit of struggle Tom finally won her from her mother. So if I remember correctly Goldberry was actually from out of the river, and appears to be some sort of river fairy or something like that.


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## Glomund (Feb 21, 2003)

I have a question for Ithrynluin, why can't Maiar have children? if they can have children with Elves(Melian and Thingol) and elves are often said to be like the Maiar, if with less power. As for Goldberry, I think she must be a Maiar of some sort, as I also think Tom is, but we will never really know.


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## The Tall Hobbit (Feb 21, 2003)

From _The Adventures of Tom Bombadil_:



> Old Tom in summertime walked about the meadows
> gathering the buttercups, running after shadows,
> tickling the bumblebees that buzzed among the flowers,
> sitting by the waterside for hours upon hours.
> ...


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## Ancalagon (Feb 21, 2003)

You might want to read this debate on the subject of Goldberry. Whether you learn anything or not I cannot say, though Grond does propose a good theory of Goldberry as Maia offspring.


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## Lantarion (Feb 22, 2003)

Wow, now that was what I call a debate!  Well done Anc and Grond!!
And I can see how Ossë and Uinen might have conceived Goldberry; but I certainly think that it would have been in the Silmarillion, had any of the more important maiar had offspring at all. And still the River-Woman seems to remain an enigma of her own, although she could be Ossë herself.


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## Goldberry (Feb 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Glomund _
> *I have a question for Ithrynluin, why can't Maiar have children? if they can have children with Elves(Melian and Thingol) and elves are often said to be like the Maiar, if with less power. As for Goldberry, I think she must be a Maiar of some sort, as I also think Tom is, but we will never really know. *



I want to know why Maiar can't have children, too! I didn't know that. Where is it from? Please Ithrynluin, won't you tell us?


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## Ancalagon (Feb 22, 2003)

Actually, that is rather a good question for a separate thread, which I would suggest someone starts


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## reem (Feb 24, 2003)

it would be a discussion beyong my present mental capabilities thus i would not attempt it. but you're rgiht, someone should start it 
reem


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