# The mirror of Galadriel



## Ithrynluin (Jul 15, 2002)

I have a question about Galadriel's mirror.
WHAT IS IT? 
Maybe this has been discussed before,but I haven't been able to locate a thread which would touch even the surface of this question.
Is there any definite answer to this? Has Tolkien ever said anything concerning the mirror in his letters or in one of the HOME books?
By what principle does it function?Does it work solely by the powers of Nenya or by the power of Galadriel's mind?
Why is it called a mirror?
OK,some of these questions may(and do) sound a bit dumb,but I'm really curious about it.
I'd appreciate any theories or comments.
Cheers


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## Ancalagon (Jul 15, 2002)

Hmmm, I wonder where that idea sprang from

Anyhoo, I will gladly offer my explanations for it is an interesting topic of debate, just not tonight; tired and sleepy!


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## Rúmil (Jul 16, 2002)

IMO, the Mirror was just a way to make others see through Galadriel's eyes. It had no _powers_, she just sort of "projected" was could be seen using her mind on the surface of the water.


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## Elu Thingol (Jul 16, 2002)

What? In the book it never even hints that Galadriel is projecting images in the basin. Your idea is illogical , if she really was projecting the images, then why wouldn´t she just project them strait into their head instead of going through the basin? Answer me that!


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## Rúmil (Jul 16, 2002)

Well... bcause that's the way it is in the book! You might as well as why Sauron put all his power into a Ring and not into an underpants! that way Isildur would have had a job cutting them off....


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## Gil-Galad (Jul 16, 2002)

I have no idea,maybe I should check in the books and then write something more specific,but I don't know what........


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## Rangerdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rúmil _
> *Well... bcause that's the way it is in the book! You might as well as why Sauron put all his power into a Ring and not into an underpants! that way Isildur would have had a job cutting them off.... *




Thats perfect! I nearly shot Dr. Pepper out my nose when I read that. Good one Rumil. 

All Hail the Lord of the Y-Fronts.
Hail Satin, Master of the underwear.

RD


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## aragil (Jul 16, 2002)

My take has always been that there's too great of coincidence between Galadriel having the Ring of Water and the fact that the Mirror uses Water. I have to assume there's a connection there. In an alternate reality I've also speculated on the connection between the Ring Forger (Celebrimbor) and his Uncle (Feanor, noted craftsman of the palantiri). Perhaps the artifacts take advantage of the same technology? Furthermore (Anc's seen this before, I think), where would that technology come from? Sauron had a lot of native ability to see things removed in place and time, and he was a Maia of Aule. Feanor got most of his secrets from his father-in-law, who was also a student of Aule. My theory is that the old smith had some sort of telescopic technology, and that both the palantiri and Nenya were crafted around it.

I'm sure Galadriel probably had some native ability that helped as well, just can't think of anything to back that up right now.


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## Elu Thingol (Jul 17, 2002)

> [Posted by Rumil]
> Well... bcause that's the way it is in the book! You might as well as why Sauron put all his power into a Ring and not into an underpants! that way Isildur would have had a job cutting them off....



Very funny Rumil! But still you provide no evidence to support your theory. You say that is the way it is in the book and yet you provide no evidence interesting....



> _Posted by Aragil
> My take has always been that there's too great of coincidence between Galadriel having the Ring of Water and the fact that the Mirror uses Water_


_

Interesting point! Maybe Galadriel did infact create this mirror, however, I doubt she projects images onto it




'Many things I can command the Mirror to reveal,' she answered, 'and to some I can show what they desire to see. *But the Mirror will also show things unbidden, and those are often stranger and more profitable than things which we wish to behold*. What you will see, if you leave the Mirror free to work, *I cannot tell. For it shows things that were, and things that are, and things that
yet may be*. *But which it is that he sees, even the wisest cannot always tell*. Do you wish to look?'

Click to expand...


So we see that she can control some of the images which people see, but if the mirror had no magic powers than explain the parts in bold! And according to the book what he sees the wisest cannot always tell and she is obviously one of the wisest. So she has control over the mirror but only partial control, and she does not project the images!_


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## Ithrynluin (Jul 17, 2002)

Like aragil,I also think that the mirror worked because of Nenya and because of some innate psychic power of Galadriel.I cannot find any substantial arguments though.
In UT it is stated that Lady G had great insight into the minds of others, so maybe she showed the person who was looking into it what she perceived in their minds,and after that the mirror (somehow) took control and showed things unlooked for.


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## Rúmil (Jul 17, 2002)

Well, I think that Galadriel is obviously the source of the magic of the Mirror: it's only wéater after all. My opinion is that she projects on the water *the things that can be seen using her mind* (I did not say that she selects mental pictures out of her mind and projects them on the water). Then there is some sort of mental connection between those things she projects and the mind of the watcher, who "subconciously" chooses what interests him in the selection of things the eyes of Galadriel can see. Does that make any sense?


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## Lantarion (Jul 17, 2002)

I think the Mirror might be one of the very few things Tolkien mentions or semi-mentions about the powers of the Three Elven-rings. I believe that Nenya, the Ring of Water, is an amulet of power, so to speak, which concentrates Galadriel's mental aura and projects it into most things she does. I think that one of the 'spells' she is capable of projecting is to imbue water with magical properties. The Mirror is her pride, I believe, but I think she could make some killer ice sculptures too.


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## Ithrynluin (Jul 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Pontifex _
> *but I think she could make some killer ice sculptures too.  *



That's a good one Ponti! 

I think you and Rumil have developed pretty good theories concerning the mirror - the best so far.But I don't know if we'll ever get to the bottom of this matter.


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## Rúmil (Jul 17, 2002)

Well given Tolkien never gave any explanation on the subject of the Mirror, it would be hard to have anything but a wild guess.


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## Camille (Jul 17, 2002)

Very interesting, I have a theory very similar to aragil's , I think the mirror is some kind of elven artefact, Remember Sam asking for magic? Tolkien clearly states many times that the Noldor were capable to create many "magic" objects but that was technology in ME language. 
that was the kind of magic the elves could do in a world with no technology at all.
Galadriel was a powerful Noldo, and her habilities could be proved on the making of the mirror (even though I think there is not even one line that tells Galadriel made the mirror, but is a theory) so the mirror is an object she uses, similar to the palantiri to look far back and in the future.
But this mirrow is diferrent some how:
"I know what did you saw, because it is also in my mind" (maybe not the exact quote) Galadriel knew what the mirrow shows, maybe it was some kind of telepatic stuff or... wait she was a Noldo that lived on Aman and I think as her brother Finrond Felagund she could read the minds of men ... or hobbits.
I do not think that the elven ring she posses was conected with the mirror, there is no evidence strong enough I think.


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## Rúmil (Jul 17, 2002)

The Mirror is not an artefact, it's just a basin full of water. What makes it magic is the Mind of Galadriel, enhanced by the Ring. That at least I think is plain.


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## Camille (Jul 17, 2002)

We do not have evidence the mirror works because of the ring, and yes maybe the water is a fuel! we'll never know but what are the palantir for example? just a cristal sphere?
It is more logical for me the conection between a magic arthefact (technology as Tolkien said) and Galadriel being a Noldo.


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## LadyGaladriel (Jul 17, 2002)

Its so a birdbath!


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## Rangerdave (Jul 17, 2002)

Okay, here's a theory for you. 

While wandering around one day in the Middle-earth fashion mall and home emprovement center, the Lady Galadriel comes across one of the lost palantiri and thinks to herself. "Hey, that would look just peachy in my garden next to the cement gnome and the plastic flamingo." So she picks up the legendary seeing stone and proceeds to head back to her split-level semi-detached townhouse in one of the nicer areas of Upper Lorien: When suddenly the Elven Queen trips over the beard of a love-lorn Dwarf! The palantir falls to the ground and cracks neatly in half and lo, the mystic stone is found to be hollow. Distraught that her new decoration is ruined, she threatens to turn the poor infatuated Dwarf into a newt. In a panic, the Dwarf (whose was named Dimly-son of Grimly-son of Whimsey-nephew of Bob) offers to fashion a beautiful drinking fountain from the ruined palantir. So with all the skill of his ancient race, and a small crew of teamsters from Middle-Jersey, Dimly-son of Grimly-son of Whimsey-nephew of Bob creates the magic finger bowl that becomes known to the ends of world as the Mirror of Galadriel.

Really, it actually happened, I swear. Now who would like to make me an offer on this lovely bridge.

RD


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## Ithrynluin (Jul 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rangerdave _
> *Okay, here's a theory for you.
> 
> Really, it actually happened, I swear. Now who would like to make me an offer on this lovely bridge.
> ...



Oh-key....I guess you could call that a theory - but RD,you explain nothing about the way the mirror works.


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## Rangerdave (Jul 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *
> 
> Oh-key....I guess you could call that a theory - but RD,you explain nothing about the way the mirror works. *



Sure it does, the palatiri allows one to gaze across time and space right? So half a palatir would work half as well. So if the mirror is half a palatir filled with water, you would get a fuzzy glimpse of either what you desired to see or where your mind was drawn.

But I agree, it is rather a silly theory.

RD


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## Rúmil (Jul 18, 2002)

Tss... and I always thought Palatíri were unbreakable... Fëanor was bragging again... "unbreakable! 'twill last you a lifetime! guaranteed!"


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## Elu Thingol (Jul 18, 2002)

> _Posted by Rumil_
> it's just a basin full of water. What makes it magic is the Mind of Galadriel, enhanced by the Ring. That at least I think is plain.



Rumil you are looking totally in the wrong direction. Let´s disect the quote shall we.



> But the *Mirror* will also show things unbidden, and those are often stranger and more profitable than things which we wish to behold



Now unless my eyes are tricking me it says that the mirror is showing these things not Galadriel.



> For *it* shows things that were, and things that are, and things that yet may be.



Again it says the mirror is showing these things



> What you will see, if you leave the Mirror free to work, I cannot tell



This must be some basin full of water. For although you say it is a plain basin it seems to be able to work and do things on its own without Galadriel. This is OBVIOUSLY more than just a basin full of water.



> But the Mirror will also show things unbidden



Here again is an example of the mirror working outside of Galadriel´s mind.

So there you have it. The mirror is magic!


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## Rúmil (Jul 18, 2002)

You say it yourself. The Mirror is just a plain basin of water. And it is magic. And it belongs to Galadriel. Coincidence? Also, it is very obviously Galadriel that _makes_ it magic:


> With water from the stream Galadriel filled the basin to the brim, *and breathed on it*, and when the water was still again she spoke. `Here is the Mirror of Galadriel,'


 If it is the subconcious of the watcher that selects the images, it is obvious that the images shown seem unbidden to the watcher. My theory is, let me remind you, that out of the vast selection of things that could be seen through Galadriel's eyes, the watcher _subconciously_ chooses which are of interest to him. And that fits perfectly with all the quotes you objected.


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## Lantarion (Jul 18, 2002)

Great cracks, guys, I see the spirit of humour is far from squelched. 

Oh, as for your theory, Camille:


> "I know what did you saw, because it is also in my mind" (maybe not the exact quote) Galadriel knew what the mirrow shows, maybe it was some kind of telepatic stuff or...


Galadriel means, I think, that she is also thinking of the source of the troubled times, Sauron. I think that she suspects that Frodo saw the Eye, or perhaps she saw the Eye in the Mirror as well. But by "it is inmy mind also" (or whatever) she meant that she had also been thinking and worrying about Sauron, and the Ring.

Another thing: why didn't Galadriel want Frodo to touch the water? She says "Do not touch the water", so it sounds like nobody is allowed to touch the surface of the Mirror.. Perhaps if you touch it you turn into a star and have to use shades wherever you go; after all, it was the light from the star of Eärendil that supposedly gave the Mirror its powers... Or not, I'm just speculating here.


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## Ithrynluin (Jul 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Pontifex _
> *Another thing: why didn't Galadriel want Frodo to touch the water? She says "Do not touch the water", so it sounds like nobody is allowed to touch the surface of the Mirror.. Perhaps if you touch it you turn into a star and have to use shades wherever you go; after all, it was the light from the star of Eärendil that supposedly gave the Mirror its powers... Or not, I'm just speculating here.  *



I don't know why you aren't allowed to touch the surface of the water either.Maybe it would disturb the mirror and prevent it from functioning properly.
I don't think that Eärendil's star gave the mirror its powers. I remember that Sam saw a star descend on Galadriel's finger,but there is no association with the mirror (or at least I didn't see it that way).


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## Camille (Jul 18, 2002)

Good after the super market theory  


> You say it yourself. The Mirror is just a plain basin of water. And it is magic.


Ok ok I have to be not so lazy and look for the quote form the letters of JRRT, I promise I will have them this afternoon. the mirrow is magic but just in the eyes of the hobbits, men and dwarves, but for the elves it is not magic, Galadriel do not undestood this word and the elves that gave the food and everything to the Fellowship when they leave Lorien also did not understand it, for them is the work of their very own hands and they have an hability beyond the knowledge of the other races.
That is why I said that the mirror is an arthefact.

Pontifex


> Sauron. I think that she suspects that Frodo saw the Eye, or perhaps she saw the Eye in the Mirror as well.


the telepatic theory is not so good  , Elu Thingol, have posted some that seams very logical to me about the mirrow working independly from Galadriel's mind, but maybe she saw or knew what frodo saw because she suspect it or because she could read minds, remeber the first time the Fellowship met Galadriel? she somehow read in their minds.


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## aragil (Jul 18, 2002)

RD y Camille- You two are stealing my thunder on Mirror-Palantir comparisons. Oh well, here is a teaser related to the telepathic communications of Galadriel, with or without the Mirror (don't forget also the telepathic conversation between Gandalf, Celeborn, Galadriel, and Elrond towards the end of _Many Partings_:

From _The Palantiri_:


> "Two persons, each using a Stone 'in accord' with the other, could converse, but not by sound, which the Stones did not transmit. Looking one at the other they would exchange 'thought' --not their full or true thought, or their intentions, but 'silent speech,' the thoughts they wished to transmit (already fromalized in linguistic form in their minds or actually spoken aloud), which would be received by their respondents and of course immediately transformed into 'speech,' and only reportable as such."


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## Camille (Jul 18, 2002)

Sorry Aragil, I did not mean to steal nothing from you  
but I am not sure the mirrow works similar to the palantiri.


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## aragil (Jul 18, 2002)

No se use nada del doble negativo en ingles. Tee-hee. But the Mirror-Palantir comparison is coming- the above quote was just a teaser!


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## Camille (Jul 18, 2002)

> No se use nada del doble negativo en ingles. Tee-hee. But the Mirror-Palantir comparison is coming- the above quote was just a teaser!


Good! Aja! de la lengua de Cervantes...


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## Elu Thingol (Jul 18, 2002)

> _Posted by Rumil_
> You say it yourself. The Mirror is just a plain basin of water



I never said that! Read the whole post please.



> _Posted by Rumil_
> If it is the subconcious of the watcher that selects the images, it is obvious that the images shown seem unbidden to the watcher. My theory is, let me remind you, that out of the vast selection of things that could be seen through Galadriel's eyes, the watcher subconciously chooses which are of interest to him. And that fits perfectly with all the quotes you objected.



The subconcious chooses the images, hmmmmmmm....
I´m afraid that is incorrect for this reason



> What you will see, if you leave the *Mirror* free to work, I cannot tell



It doesn´t say subconcious or mind it says MIRROR. The mirror is selecting the images! Any other questions??????


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## Camille (Jul 18, 2002)

Ok here is the quote From a letter of JRRT to Milton Waldman, 1951, Tolkien talks about the motives on his work:

"...Anyway all this stuff is mainly concerned with Fall, Mortality, an the Machine.... It may become possesive, clinging to the things made as its own, the sub-creator wishes to be lord and god of his private creation. he will rebel against the laws of the creator-especially against mortality. both of these (alone or together) will lead to the desire of power, for making the will more quickly effective, - ans so *and so to the Machine (or Magic)*. By the last I intend all use of external plans or devices (apparatus) instead of developments of the inherent inner powers or talents- or even the use of these talents with the corrupted motive of dominating: bulldozing the real world, or coercing other wills. The Machine is our more obvious modern form though more closely related to Magic than is usually recognised.
I have not used "magic" consistently, and indeed the Elven Queen Galadriel is obliged to remostrate with the Hobbits on their confused use of the word both for the devices and operations of the Enemy, and for those of the elves. But the elves are there to demostrate the difference. Their magic is art, delivered from many of its human limitations: more effortless, more quick, more complete (product and vision in unflawed correspondence)"


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## Rúmil (Jul 18, 2002)

Very good quote Camille.
From which we can gather that Galadriel does *not* use a machine, ergo the Mirror is not an artefact. The obvious alternative is that the Mirror works off the mind of Galadriel.

Elu, to answer you: 1/ Don't you read only part of my post either  

2/ And as for the subconcious being the chooser: the way the mirror works is by allowing the subconcious to choose from the images at the watcher's disposal. Ergo, "leave the Mirror free to work" means "leave the Mirror allow your subconcious to choose from the images available"

Does this sound twisted?


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## Camille (Jul 18, 2002)

thanks and very good for you too : 


> ...and so to the Machine (or Magic). By the last I intend all use of external plans or devices (apparatus) instead of developments of the inherent inner powers or talents-


apparatus? is not the same as mechanism? or my dictionary have to be wrong!


> From which we can gather that Galadriel does not use a machine,


Where did you get that?


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## Rúmil (Jul 19, 2002)

The "Machine" in Tolkien's frame of mind, is an evil word. Only Evil characters use Machines.


> But the Elves are there (in my tales) to demonstrate the difference. Their 'magic' is Art, delivered from many of its human limitations: more effortless, more quick, more complete (product, and vision in unflawed correspondence). And its object is Art not Power


 Galadriel does not use a Machine, she uses "magic", the power of her mind.

But anyway, this is out of place: we must distinguish "conjuring" magic, which these quotes are about, magic that is meant to produce a lasting and visible artefact, and "telepathy". IMO, the Mirror is an example of Telepathy; it is only a support for the magic to operate. It's like the screen of a cinema; the place where everything happens, all the technical thingies, are in the projector, not in the screen. The screen is just a detail; so is the Mirror. Without Galadriel, the Mirror has no power in itself, just as the screen is useless without the projector, to continue on with my lame comparison.


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## Ithrynluin (Jul 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rúmil _
> * IMO, the Mirror is an example of Telepathy; it is only a support for the magic to operate. It's like the screen of a cinema; the place where everything happens, all the technical thingies, are in the projector, not in the screen. The screen is just a detail; so is the Mirror. Without Galadriel, the Mirror has no power in itself, just as the screen is useless without the projector, to continue on with my lame comparison. *



Exactly.This is a very plausible theory Rumil.No Galadriel,no magic mirror.


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## Tyaronumen (Jul 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rúmil _
> *The "Machine" in Tolkien's frame of mind, is an evil word. Only Evil characters use Machines. Galadriel does not use a Machine, she uses "magic", the power of her mind.
> 
> *



I can't agree here. The Three Rings were machines in the sense that Tolkien speaks of, IMHO...


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## Rúmil (Jul 19, 2002)

The Three are an ambiguous case. They were made by Celebrimbor, profiting from the teaching of Sauron, and while the Smiths of Eregion were still under the spell of Sauron. They were made with good intention, but as they were truly Machines, this led to an ambiguous result: the work the Rings achieved was neither good nor bad, it had both aspects.


> But the Elvish weakness is in these terms naturally to regret the past, and to become unwilling to face change: as if a man were to hate a very long book still going on, and wished to settle down in a favourite chapter. Hence they fell in a measure to Sauron's deceits: they desired some 'power' over things as they are (which is quite distinct from art), to make their particular will to preservation effective: to arrest change, and keep things always fresh and fair. The 'Three Rings' were 'unsullied', because this object was in a limited way good, it included the healing of the real damages of malice, as well as the mere arrest of change; and the Elves did not desire to dominate other wills, nor to usurp all the world to their particular pleasure.


 Galadriel uses her Ring to preserve Lórien, but if Ring-making came back into fashion at the end of the Third Age she would take no part in it. That particular Machine is an exception.


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## Tyaronumen (Jul 19, 2002)

No, I don't think that Galadriel's particular ring was an exception. Nor that the Three themselves were necessarily 'exceptions'... much that the elves wrought, such as the Palantiri, etc. were 'machines' in the sense that Tolkien uses the word in... 

While Tolkien himself may have had a somewhat negative connotation in mind when HE used 'machine', that does not mean that all (or even the majority) of 'machines' in his world were bad.

The main problem I see with 'machines' is that it is often possible to take a very good one and put it to a very evil use (the various rings, the Palantirs, etc.)

Just a different perspective. Other than on this particular point, I agree with everything you've posted so far, pretty much.


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## Rúmil (Jul 19, 2002)

> The main problem I see with 'machines' is that it is often possible to take a very good one and put it to a very evil use (the various rings, the Palantirs, etc.)


 My thought exactly.

The Palantíri, IMO, were not "machines" in origin; they were more of a work of art. (they were devised by Fëanor, and there was little use for seven Palantíri in Aman) The Númenoreans strated using them as Machines, and the potential evil that caused was set to work at the end of the Third Age. 

(this my personal opinion, and it is conjectural and debatable)


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## Tyaronumen (Jul 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rúmil _
> * My thought exactly.
> 
> The Palantíri, IMO, were not "machines" in origin; they were more of a work of art. (they were devised by Fëanor, and there was little use for seven Palantíri in Aman) The Númenoreans strated using them as Machines, and the potential evil that caused was set to work at the end of the Third Age.
> ...



My friend, IMHO, I think that you provide for too much difference between "machine" and "art"...

I will, for example, provide a modern example: my Kawasaki Ninja ZX-9R motorcycle... 

Sure, this motorcycle is a 'machine'... but you could also say there is no pressing -need- for this 'machine' when there are cars... and you would only be correct to note that this motorcycle is not JUST a 'machine' -- it is 'art' as well. And not just artistic in it's appearance, but art in motion! The Ninja ZX-9R (and it's equivalent competition from Honda, Suzuki, and Yamaha) is a -machine- that allows one to experience the -art of speed-.

Good machines incorporate art to the very highest feasible degree, both in terms of aesthetic quality, and in terms of actual performance...as such, if I put my engineering hat on (thus disregarding the possible consequences of using the machine for 'evil' and just regarding it from a purely functional perspective), I would identify a Palantir as a 'good machine'... a good combination of art and function.

But I suspect that your use of the word 'machine' somehow implies that it is bad, or at least not good?


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## Rúmil (Jul 19, 2002)

Yes. I use the word "machine" to describe a brutal, crude and vulgar artefact made and used for exclusively materialistic puposes, by stupid, selfish, and tasteless users. No offence meant to your Kawasaki Ninja ZX-9R  

I admit this is not the usual definition, but I suspect this is what Tolkien often meant by the word.


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## Tyaronumen (Jul 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rúmil _
> *Yes. I use the word "machine" to describe a brutal, crude and vulgar artefact made and used for exclusively materialistic puposes, by stupid, selfish, and tasteless users. No offence meant to your Kawasaki Ninja ZX-9R
> 
> I admit this is not the usual definition, but I suspect this is what Tolkien often meant by the word. *




Heheh, my bike couldn't possibly take offense, because the words brutal, crude, vulgar don't even exist within a ten-foot sphere of my Kawasaki, which is also used mainly to provide joy (and, I'll admit, to commute to work ) to myself. My own personal levels of stupidity, selfishness, and taste are, of course, quite subjective, so I can't comment. 

I just recall Tolkien saying this:



> ...and so to the Machine (or Magic). By the last I intend all use of external plans or devices (apparatus) instead of developments of the inherent inner powers or talents-



And so I consider things like the Three Rings to be 'Machines' (because they are -external devices- instead of developments of inherent inner powers or talents)...

But anyhow,


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## Camille (Jul 19, 2002)

Rúmil, you said:
"The "Machine" in Tolkien's frame of mind, is an evil word. Only Evil characters use Machines"
"The Palantíri, IMO, were not "machines" in origin; they were more of a work of art"
"Yes. I use the word "machine" to describe a brutal, crude and vulgar artefact made and used for exclusively materialistic puposes, by stupid, selfish, and tasteless users. No offence meant to your Kawasaki Ninja ZX-9R 
I admit this is not the usual definition, but I suspect this is what Tolkien often meant by the word."

I am sorry you are mistaken, It is very clear Tolkien uses Machine not only to the devices of the Enemy but also to the Elven artefact, the difference my friend is that the first ones are used or created to control, to dominate, the latter is to preserve or in Tolkien's words:
"Their magic is art, delivered from many of its human limitations: more effortless, more quick, more complete (product and vision in unflawed correspondence)"
I suggest you to read the Tolkien's letters (and I suggest to everyone it is really good to know a little of what Tolkien had in mind when he was at work), specially letters: 131 and 155
I am sorry I can not quote them but my copy is not in English and I am afraid I can only offer a very bad translation. The letter 131 I have quoted already.
In the other one (155) Tolkien talks about the magic and its motives: No "magic" is good or evil but the porpouse could be or the use you make of this "magic". He says that Galadriel and Gandalf use "magic", modern mogic and the results produce real effects on real world. 

and when you said: "But anyway, this is out of place: we must distinguish "conjuring" magic, which these quotes are about, magic that is meant to produce a lasting and visible artefact, and "telepathy""

I do not think it is out of place because helps to prove the theory of the mirror as an artefact: Magic=Machine=Artefact=Mirror of Galadriel


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## Rúmil (Jul 20, 2002)

I thought I had proven the Mirror was not an artefact, and needed Galadriel to power it up. And I have read Toklien's Letters and studied them very closely. On Machines, for instance:


> Well the first War of the Machines seems to be drawing to its final inconclusive chapter – leaving, alas, everyone the poorer, many bereaved or maimed and millions dead, and only one thing triumphant: the Machines. As the servants of the Machines are becoming a privileged class, the Machines are going to be enormously more powerful. What's their next move? ....


 letter #96.

A clear distinction is made between Machines, i.e. artefacts designed for materialistic use, and works of Art.

In the same letter you quote:


> But at Eregion great work began – and the Elves came their nearest to falling to 'magic' and machinery.



and in letter #155


> Galadriel speaks of the 'deceits of the Enemy'. Well enough, but magia could be, was, held good (per se), and goeteia bad. Neither is, in this tale, good or bad (per se), but only by motive or purpose or use.



The Rings were Machines in that alltough they were created with the intent of preserving good and healing bad, there was an unwholesome side to the problem: they wanted some sort of power over nature. Machine, in this case, is a bad word.

I suggest you also read this thread for more on the subject.


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## Lantarion (Jul 20, 2002)

That first quote is like something straight from the Matrix, seriously. 
But I think, Camille, that the words 'Elven' and 'machine' cannot be linked in a sentence, as the Elves shunned the use of mechanized apparatus and tended to bend more to the side of Magic, considered an 'Art'.


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## Camille (Jul 20, 2002)

> That first quote is like something straight from the Matrix, seriously.


Very well Mr. Anderson...  

" ...and so to the Machine (or Magic)." seams very clear Machine or magic.

"Their magic is art, delivered from many of its human limitations: more effortless, more quick, more complete (product and vision in unflawed correspondence)", 
that is the difference, the mirror is magic but good magic. and for the rings: 

"The Rings were Machines in that alltough they were created with the intent of preserving good and healing bad, there was an unwholesome side to the problem: they wanted some sort of power over nature. Machine, in this case, is a bad word."
The rings (the elven rings) were not bad magic, and they do not wanted power over nature they just wanted to heal, to preserve, there was no bad thoughts in there.

and Rumil thanks for the suggestion I have already read the thread very interesting but I do not think you have proved that the mirror needed Galadriel to power it up, I must confess that was my original thought but I change my mind when Elu thingol posted and I have not find any evindence (in the books or in your posts) to prove it.


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## Rúmil (Jul 20, 2002)

Remeber, Galadriel breathed on the Mirror before she presnted it to Frodo and Sam. She stood by them for the duration. She counselled them while they were using it. (I posted the exact quotes further up) I think this is evidence enough in favour of the "Galadriel-behind-it-theory). If you read the end of my post, it says the Rings were called Machines because they had an ominous side to them. May I requote my last post from Tolkien's letter:


> But at Eregion great work began – and the Elves came their nearest to falling to 'magic' and machinery.



PS: what happened to the post I had posted just after Pontifex's reply? Was it "moderated" just for being pointless or did I actually fail to press the "Submit" button (I wouldn't put that past myself).


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## Ithrynluin (Jul 20, 2002)

Camille,if the mirror is indeed more than just a basin of water and doesn't need the power of Galadriel to function,then where did the mirror come from? Just wondering.


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## Elu Thingol (Jul 25, 2002)

I think the key here to showing that the mirror was indeed more than just a basin of water, is the fact that Galadriel does not have complete control over the mirror. 



> But the Mirror will also show things unbidden, and those are often stranger and more profitable than things which we wish to behold.



How can the mirror show unbidden images if it is completely dependent on Galadriel 

Also, we know that Galadriel does not project the images



> 'Many things I can command the Mirror to reveal,'



She says she can command the mirror to reveal things. If she indeed she was projecting images would not she say, many things I can show through the mirror??? No! Instead she commands the mirror to show certain things, which proves she was not projecting images.

As you should be able to see by now THE MIRROR IS MORE THAN JUST A BASIN OF WATER!!!!!!

Thank you, thank you, thank you

APPLAUSE


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## Lantarion (Jul 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Elu Thingol _
> *She says she* can *command the mirror to reveal things*


That's right, she can. But does that mean she would?


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## Tyaronumen (Jul 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Lantarion _
> *That first quote is like something straight from the Matrix, seriously.
> But I think, Camille, that the words 'Elven' and 'machine' cannot be linked in a sentence, as the Elves shunned the use of mechanized apparatus and tended to bend more to the side of Magic, considered an 'Art'. *



You seem to be assuming that there is a quantitative (rather than QUALITATIVE) difference between magic and machine in Tolkien's world -- which, of course, there is not. 

The entire concept of 'magic' as we would commonly think of it is simply foreign to Tolkien's world.


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## Elu Thingol (Jul 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Lantarion_
> That's right, she can. But does that mean she would?



Excuse me but I got nothing out of what you just said. I understand the meaning but see no relevance to the point.


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## Lhunithiliel (Jul 28, 2002)

I have traced this discussion and here what I think.
First of all, Ithrynluin, it is NOT an unusual question! I have been thinking a lot myself about Galadriel's mirror, about the Palantiri and the way they function...
I think that in the case of the "mirror" - it is the water that is of some clue, perhaps. Why? Well, remember that it is NOT the first time Frodo looks into "magic waters"! The first time was outside Moria, when Gimly shows him that lake the water of which did NOT reflect the clear blue sky above, nor their own reflection, but a dark, deep sky with millions of beautiful stars... maybe the sky the Firstborn saw when they awoke, maybe the skies before the creation of the Sun and Moon (as explained in Silmarillion)...
So, there is some special attitude to water that Tolkien shows by these "magic" water basins. What - I can not say, as I do not have all those information sources available to you! Maybe you'll find smth and comment on this.
And I too think that Galadriel's mirror is some sort of a screen to reflect what she sees in the minds of the people standing in front of her. She has been described quite well as an enchantress and possessing "magic" to read into peoples' minds. And remember the last meeting of Galadriel, Celeborn, Gandalf (the White) and Elrond? I am so sorry I don't have the English text, so I could have been able to quote, but it was about all of them having a very long and lively conversation but not a single sound was heard as they were communicating through their minds, not using the normal sound-speech! So, Galadriel could well use any other surface for that "screen" of thoughts. Why WATER then? I have already stated my p.o.v.
Now, I'll be waiting for yours!  

And if you would find it of any interest, LET'S SPEAK ABOUT THE PALANTIRI, as well.


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## Elu Thingol (Jul 28, 2002)

> _Posted by Lhunithiliel_
> And I too think that Galadriel's mirror is some sort of a screen to reflect what she sees in the minds of the people standing in front of her.



Ahh and yet another who has not seen the light. I hate pointing out where your wrong but here it is. The mirror is not a screen to reflect what Galadriel sees in the minds of others but it is this...



> For it shows things that were, and things that are, and things that yet may be.



No where does it say it shows things in the minds of other people. Where did you come up with that?


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## Ceorl (Jul 28, 2002)

I must agree with Rumil on most points, the mirror is definitely 'powered' by Galadriel. I believe however that she uses the ring to achieve the 'enchantment' of the mirror. 

If you go to examples all the 'art' of the Elves is in the making of items (or the remaking; Anduril). never are they able to enchant already made items( not that I noticed anyway). The 'powers' of the Elves (mental, telepathy, Glorfindels showing of power at ford) are all alot more subtle. So I dont think that Galadriel enchanted the mirror with her own powers but with the power of the ring, which is a 'machine' in the Tolkien sense. I do not believe that the basin itself is an artifact. Note that when she uses it Galadriel refills it, and breaths on it. Also as others already pointed out I do not believe that her bearing the ring of Water and the mirror being a basin of water is a coincidence. 

The mirrors visions are definitely not commanded by Galadriel(not the random ones anyway) although she is linked to the mirror and can see what the mirror is showing. One of the qualities given by the 'enchantment' is being able to tell what visions would interest you. Note that not all the visions are true. The visions are completely random(apart that they are linke to the viewer) as they are not always true.


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## Elu Thingol (Jul 28, 2002)

These are all topics which have been discussed before please read the whole thread 

Thank You


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## Eol (Aug 5, 2002)

*The Mirror*

I think maybe the ring might have something to do with the medium. The ring of water was the most powerful of the three. They say that Elrond's ring of air allowed the stars to shine most brightly upon his house for example. And the ring of fire helps fire peoples hearts to do great deeds, etc.

However I don't think the mirror was Galadriel-powered. I think she placed an enchantment upon the water. Then anyone who would look in the water could see visions, or ask specific questions. I think the reason you mustn't touch the water is you would break the spell.

Now she could command the mirror to display what was asked or the individual could control it. But the important point here is that she couldn't see what the observer sees. She makes this clear when she tells Frodo after he sees the eye that she also saw his last vision because it is in her mind as well. She didn't see the other visions or Sam's vision. If it were truly Galadriel-powered she would know.

She saw the eye because she too is a ring-bearer. Sauron was striving to discover the 3 rings as well, but as she says, the way is still shut (until he reclaims the ruling ring). However, she could not hide her ring from Frodo, who holds the main ring.

Eol


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## Ithrynluin (Oct 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Lhunithiliel _
> *I think that in the case of the "mirror" - it is the water that is of some clue, perhaps. Why? Well, remember that it is NOT the first time Frodo looks into "magic waters"! The first time was outside Moria, when Gimly shows him that lake the water of which did NOT reflect the clear blue sky above, nor their own reflection, but a dark, deep sky with millions of beautiful stars... maybe the sky the Firstborn saw when they awoke, maybe the skies before the creation of the Sun and Moon (as explained in Silmarillion)...
> And I too think that Galadriel's mirror is some sort of a screen to reflect what she sees in the minds of the people standing in front of her. She has been described quite well as an enchantress and possessing "magic" to read into peoples' minds. And remember the last meeting of Galadriel, Celeborn, Gandalf (the White) and Elrond? I am so sorry I don't have the English text, so I could have been able to quote, but it was about all of them having a very long and lively conversation but not a single sound was heard as they were communicating through their minds, not using the normal sound-speech! So, Galadriel could well use any other surface for that "screen" of thoughts. Why WATER then? I have already stated my p.o.v.*



Wow,Lhun,those are some marvellous thoughts and observations! I think the mirror has more to do with Galadriel's innate powers than anything else (Nenya would come in next).
That's a great point about the "silent" conversation.


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## Theoden (Oct 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by aragil _
> *My take has always been that there's too great of coincidence between Galadriel having the Ring of Water and the fact that the Mirror uses Water...I'm sure Galadriel probably had some native ability that helped as well, just can't think of anything to back that up right now. *



I think that you hit the nail on the head. It would seem that there would be a conection between her ring and the mirror. 

-me


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