# Send the ring into the west....



## Maeglin (Dec 9, 2002)

> Then if the Ring cannot be kept from him for ever by strength, said Glorfindel, two things only remain for us to attempt: to send it over the Sea, or to destroy it.



after this Elrond says that they who dwell beyond the Sea would not recieve it, for good or ill it belongs to ME blah blah blah. But anyway why would Glorfindel even bother suggesting sending into the West? He had dwelt there once and should have known better than the rest that it would not be accepted by the Elves and Valar in Valinor.


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## Arvedui (Dec 10, 2002)

I think Glorfindel asked a rethorical question. As you say, he knows better than to say something as this in his full meaning. I believe he asked it so that Elrond could state once and for all that sending the ring west was not an option. It had to be destroyed.


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## Húrin Thalion (Dec 10, 2002)

I agree with Arvedui, maybe they were even following some secret plan, kind of a script. In that case Gandalf speaking the black speech must have been a part of it too, not very likely but an interesting thought.

Edit: I am not really as paranoid usually, but you've gotta to have it all covered. 

Húrin


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## Finduilas (Dec 10, 2002)

> . I believe he asked it so that Elrond could state once and for all that sending the ring west was not an option. It had to be destroyed.



I do agree that sending the ring into the west was not an option but it was Glorfindel's duty to state the two options they had and it was obvious which one they MUST accept.


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## Gil-Galad (Dec 10, 2002)

Well I think sending the ring to the west was the last chance for saving people.I'm sure that Manwe and co. were watching carefully what was happenning in ME.And they were ready to help them at the very last moment.


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## Arvedui (Dec 11, 2002)

But what help would that be, sending the Ring to the West? Sauron would still be around as long as the Ring existed.


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## Mablung (Dec 11, 2002)

But he couldn't have it nor his ultimate power. He would forever remain a floating eye.


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## Arvedui (Dec 11, 2002)

IMO he would still be strong enough to be a major problem in ME. I'm not sure that he could be overthrown even if he didn't have the Ring.


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## Finduilas (Dec 11, 2002)

Yes,no doubt in that.But if they had taken the ring into the west,what help they would have recieved? 
Do you think that the Valar would have cured Middle-earth once again?


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## Arvedui (Dec 11, 2002)

As RD have stated in another post somewhere, that would probably have been at the cost of another piece of ME, so I'm not so sure that would be wanted.


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## Arvedui (Dec 12, 2002)

I'm not too sure about that, but let's not forget why the Valar, or Eru, sent the Istari: To help Men and Elves to solve the situation themselves. Elves were leaving ME, and Men were to take over. IMO Eru figured out that Men needed to get the feel of having accomplished to overthrow Sauron without the direct intervention by the Valar.

The result was that Sauron was destroyed and a lot of the dark forces were cast down. The Kingdom was restored, with a King that had proven his worth in the fight for the freedom of ME. And also while he accomplished that, he managed to make a lot of the other 'peoples' in ME his allies. With peoples here I mean Hobbits, Rohirrim, Dwarves and those Elves that stayed on.


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## Lantarion (Dec 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Arvedui_
> *IMO Eru figured out that Men needed to get the feel of having accomplished to overthrow Sauron without the direct intervention by the Valar.*


You took the words right out of my mouth.


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## Froggum (Dec 12, 2002)

> Why was sending the Ring to Aman with Gandalf being the one to take it there not an option? Surely the fires of Aulë would have been strong enough to destroy it?



But the temptation would be so great... Gandalf himself said he didn't want to take it. He daren't. So they send it with a guy who is the last person in the world to want the power of the ring, a guy who just wants to go home and be a happy hobbit again. Okay, so in the end, he is rather tempted, and does put it on several times, but not nearly so dangerous as if one of the wise had it. They would actually know what to do with it. Frodo hasn't the foggiest about how to weild a ring of power. Best guy for the job, in my 'umble opinion.


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## Maeglin (Dec 12, 2002)

I don't think the temptation would be so great that the Valar in Aman would want to use it, and I don't think it would work in Aman anyway, and one other thing, the Valar wouldn't bother putting it on, they are powerful enough without the ring, to them it would be like just another piece of jewelry. Oh and there is one person it would be safe to send it with: Bombadil.


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## Froggum (Dec 12, 2002)

Um... I meant the temptation for Gandalf.


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## Brent (Dec 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Mablung _
> *But he couldn't have it nor his ultimate power. He would forever remain a floating eye. *



Noo ! You've been corrupted by Peter Jackson ;-) Sauron isn't a floating eye he has some rather nasty looking human form, minus the finger Isildur cut off - Gollum tells us this (Only four fingers on the Black Hand)


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## Finduilas (Dec 13, 2002)

> Oh and there is one person it would be safe to send it with: Bombadil.



It would truely be safe there but ,unfortunately,not for long.It was said at the Elrond's counsil-Rivendell was the last place to be ruined if Sauron took back his ring,so would there be another place which would resist longer(I don't include Valinor)?


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## Húrin Thalion (Dec 13, 2002)

I don't seem to see the point in this, what would have happened if they had sent it into the west if that was possible? They would have been utterly defeated for in the last battle it is only the destrcuction of the Ring that saves the west. I mean they would have been conquered if it had not been for the Ring, if they had not attacked Mordor certainly Mordor would attack them. So what is the point of discussing if it would have been possible if it was not meaningful. Gandalf and Elrond knew that they would be defeated if the Ring was not destroyed, so why should they send it into the west?

Húrin Thalion


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## Finduilas (Dec 13, 2002)

> I don't seem to see the point in this, what would have happened if they had sent it into the west if that was possible?



Well,then there is no sense in discussing a big part of this threads.While we are discussing I think we can get a better view and point about Tolkien's world.Correct me if I am wrong but this is my opinion.



> if they had not attacked Mordor certainly Mordor would attack them.



And probably if they had sent the ring into the west,the Valr may have shown their power and 'reclean' ME as they have done before.


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## Húrin Thalion (Dec 13, 2002)

Well in a way you are right Finduilas but I still have to disagree, since all must have known that they could not send the Ring into th west that is not an option. They know that it would take time to get the Ring to the west and under that time they would be crushed, so what we have here is a discussion about if a thing that is not an option would be possible. And as it is stated that it is neither possible nor desirable I don't see the point of the discussions. I do however encourage to further discussions about this topic, I just saw that the whole debate had become a little like the council of Elrond if you forgive me the likening. 

Also the reason that Gandalf was tempted was that he had clad himself in a body of flesh, as the spirit Ólorin I do not think he would desire the Ring, only the Maiar corrupted by Morgoth seek obly to enhance their powers.

Húrin Thalion


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## Finduilas (Dec 13, 2002)

> They know that it would take time to get the Ring to the west and under that time they would be crushed, so what we have here is a discussion about if a thing that is not an option would be possible.



I mean this is an option but not an acceptable one.
But we shouldn't forget that they were put under a lot of pressure and they didn't have very much choice so even sending the ring to the west a kind of option for them.But I'm sure they would have never accepted it.Probably the risk is too much although sending the One to Mount Doom to destruction isn't so safe at all.
After all it is better to know that you have choice and you are not pushed even forced by destiny to make somothing.In my opinion this is what they were trying to succeed in-making themselves more contious and sure in their decision.


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## Gil-Galad (Dec 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Finduilas _
> *I mean this is an option but not an acceptable one.
> But we shouldn't forget that they were put under a lot of pressure and they didn't have very much choice so even sending the ring to the west a kind of option for them.But I'm sure they would have never accepted it.Probably the risk is too much although sending the One to Mount Doom to destruction isn't so safe at all.
> After all it is better to know that you have choice and you are not pushed even forced by destiny to make somothing.In my opinion this is what they were trying to succeed in-making themselves more contious and sure in their decision. *


And also it is easy to guess that the One would stay in Rivendell our would go in Gondor.That is what Sauron expects.But he doesn't expect that elves and people will decide to send the ring in the heart of his domain.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Aug 17, 2014)

*Re: Send the ring into the west.... RESURRECTING THREAD!!!!!!*

The only ones accepted into the West were the Elves. And the elves, wielding the One Ring, would probably have been tempted to use it as well. So here are the possibilities and why they wouldn't work:


1) The Istari. The Istari were sent to aid the citizens of Middle Earth in overthrowing Sauron. Simply removing his ring from ME and bring it to the West wouldn't utterly overthrow him, it would just help to delay him completely sweeping over Middle Earth sooner. So they hadn't finished their job and probably wouldn't be accepted.


2) Elves. Elves were being accepted into the West but none of them would choose to bear the Ring knowing of its potential. They would probably be tempted to use it to make Middle Earth more like the First and Second age in Beleriand and strengthen their own Elvish rings to protect their kingdoms (what was left of them) if that's possible. In doing so would probably wipe out everything else. Just as Gandalf says:




> "With that power I should have power too great and terrible. And over me the Ring would gain a power still greater and more deadly....Do not tempt me! For I do not wish to become like the Dark Lord himself. Yet the way of the Ring to my heart is by pity, pity for weakness and the desire of strength to do good. Do not tempt me! I dare not take it, not even to keep it safe, unused. The wish to wield it would be too great for my strength. I shall have such need of it. Great perils lie before me."




I'm sure this is how it would be for the Elves as well.


3) Men, Dwarves and Hobbits. Men, Dwarves and Hobbits wouldn't be accepted into the West in the first place. And even if they would, Hobbits would be the only ones not tempted to wield the Ring, though if I remember right, Gandalf said that it would even affect Frodo eventually.


So really, there was no possibility of getting it to the West. Elves were the highest chance, but they would most likely be tempted by it before they got there.

I also like this quote from Tolkien's letters, not sure which one, but it describes if the Wise in Middle Earth would have fought against Sauron with the Ring:



> "it was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power. But this the Great had well considered and had rejected, as is seen in Elrond's word at the Council. Galadriel's rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve. In any case Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron: they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, until they could confront Sauron and destroy him by force. Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated. One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position. It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end."



NOTE: I don't have my books with me so if any of this is canonically incorrect, feel free to let me have it


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