# The Making of Stars



## Ithrynluin (Feb 5, 2007)

> _Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor_
> Then Varda went forth from the council, and she looked out from the height of Taniquetil, and beheld the darkness of Middle-earth beneath the innumerable stars, faint and far. Then she began a great labour, greatest of all the works of the Valar since their coming into Arda. She took the silver dews from the vats of Telperion, and therewith she made new stars and brighter against the coming of the Firstborn; wherefore she whose name out of the deeps of time and the labours of Eä was Tintallë, the Kindler, was called after by the Elves Elentári, Queen of the Stars. Carnil and Luinil, Nénar and Lumbar, Alcarinquë and Elemmírë she wrought in that time, and many other of the ancient stars she gathered together and set as signs in the heavens of Arda: Wilwarin, Telumendil, Soronúmë, and Anarríma; and Menelmacar with his shining belt, that forebodes the Last Battle that shall be at the end of days. And high in the north as a challenge to Melkor she set the crown of seven mighty stars to swing, Valacirca, the Sickle of the Valar and sign of doom.



I find the highlighted part difficult to agree with. 

Doubtless Varda's efforts were great and admirable, and many among the free peoples gained hope from the stars in after years, but wasn't Yavanna's making of the Two Trees a greater work?

Just as a reminder:


> _Of the Beginning of Days_
> And when Valinor was full-wrought and the mansions of the Valar were established, in the midst of the plain beyond the mountains they built their city, Valmar of many bells. Before its western gate there was a green mound, Ezellohar, that is named also Corollairë; and Yavanna hallowed it, and she sat there long upon the green grass and sang a song of power, in which was set all her thought of things that grow in the earth. But Nienna thought in silence, and watered the mould with tears. In that time the Valar were gathered together to hear the song of Yavanna, and they sat silent upon their thrones of council in the Máhanaxar, the Ring of Doom near to the golden gates of Valmar, and Yavanna Kementári sang before them and they watched.
> And as they watched, upon the mound there came forth two slender shoots; and silence was over all the world in that hour, nor was there any other sound save the chanting of Yavanna. Under her song the saplings grew and became fair and tail, and came to flower; and thus there awoke in the world the Two Trees of Valinor. Of all things which Yavanna made they have most renown, and about their fate all the tales of the Elder Days are woven.



What are your own opinions on the subject?

Why do you think Tolkien made this statement? Was it merely an oversight or is the wording deliberate and conscious? If so, what do you think was the reasoning behind it?


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## Gothmog (Feb 7, 2007)

An interesting question. In my view Varda's work on the stars has one quality that is obviously far "Greater" than the making of the Trees. The Stars were visible to, and gave hope to, all who could see them throughout Arda. The Trees on the other hand, were only visible from Valinor within the mountains of Aman, even the Teleri could not see them unless they stood in the path of the light from the Calacirya.

So I would say that the "Greater" works of the Valar in Arda were those that were concerned with the Whole of Arda and not just that little island of Aman. And of these then Varda's making of the new stars was "_greatest of all the works of the Valar since their coming into Arda._"


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 7, 2007)

I do see your point, but I would say to that: 

Firstly, no Two Trees - No Silmarils, for the light of the Trees was locked within them, and without it, they would have hardly been as important and alluring as they were. 

And secondly, no Trees - No Sun and the Moon, since the first was made from the last fruit of Laurelin, and the second from the last flower of Telperion.

Clearly, the benefit or the impact the Two Trees had upon the whole of Arda is thus more clearly visible. Therefore I still contend that the Two Trees are the greater work, even though I love the stars and have never looked upon the Trees. 

Oh, and how nice to see you back, however short your stay may be!


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## Gothmog (Feb 7, 2007)

I agree with your points about the Silmarilli, however, that was Feanor's work and also intended to be seen only in Valinor. As for the Sun and the Moon, while they did indeed come from the Two Trees, this only happened when the Trees were destroyed by Melkor and Ungoliant.

The Two Trees were great and important certainly, were still based in a selfish ignoring of Arda outside of Valinor. The Stars on the other hand were intended for the Whole of Arda. It is this that makes the difference. Had the Trees not been destroyed, when would the Valar have thought of giving more than Starlight to the rest of Arda?

It is nice to be back. I hope that I will be able to get on far more often.


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 11, 2007)

I agree that the _purpose_ behind the making of the stars was nobler than that behind the Trees, but since it is not explicitly stated that this is what is meant (and even if it were), I reserve the right to disagree with the author and still maintain that the Trees are a more significant work.


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## Maeglin (Feb 11, 2007)

Well I think it all depends on whose point of view you're taking. From the Vala standpoint, the trees were much more important/significant. The trees gave light to their own little island and brought them great joy...which I guess, theologically speaking, is what elves should have wanted as well, since a God or godly figure really has no need for anything, but just creates things for their own honor and joy. Ok, that aside; who was it that wanted the Silmarils so badly? It was the Vala. When reading it seems that none of the elves really (with the exception of Feanor, of course) cared all that much about the Silmarils which were created from the trees, and had no great desire to pursue the Silmarils. Most of them seemed go out of a sense of fear or guilt...and then who shunned them? The Vala, because they wanted the light from the 2 trees so badly but knew Feanor was going after it for himself, not them. 

Therefore, from the viewpoint of the elves, the stars are probably a greater creation. The stars are the first things that ever provided light to them, and probably brought them great joy. And ever after, are not the elves always looking to the stars for signs, particularly of hope? So then, the stars are always of greater value/beauty/significance to the Eldar. 

Conclusion: both works are awesome, but you really just have to take your pick.


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## Starbrow (Feb 12, 2007)

I agree with Maeglin and Ithy. Without the light from theTwo Trees, Varda couldn't have made the stars.


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## Thorondor_ (Feb 12, 2007)

> who was it that wanted the Silmarils so badly? It was the Vala.


How badly did they want it? Surely not bad enough to take the Silmarils from Feanor without his accord. Furthermore, it doesn't look like want, but need: after all, when all the three silmarils were recovered, none made it to Aman for good (Earendil wears his in his journeys, and the others were left in the sea and earth untill the end of the world) - it seems to me that the valar only needed the simlarils at a certain point to rekindle the trees with life. After that moment passed, their interest seriously dwindled.


> and then who shunned them? The Vala, because they wanted the light from the 2 trees so badly but knew Feanor was going after it for himself, not them.


Actually, if the valar wanted the silmarils more than anything else, they wouldn't have shunned the victorious, returning-with-the-jewels noldor; after all, they wanted the silmarils there, according to your position .

The reason which I believe is given in the books concerning the shunning of the noldor has to do, first and foremost, with their kinslaying, something which the rulers of the world cannot ignore, given their responsabilities.


> Without the light from theTwo Trees, Varda couldn't have made the stars.


First, I would point to the logical aspect of this: hypothesis contrary to fact - you can’t start with a hypothesis that is not true and then draw any supportable conclusions from it . Anyway, I doubt that Varda's power was restricted to the power of the trees - actually, I believe we have stars prior to the making of the trees:


Of the begining of days said:


> But as the ages drew on to the hour appointed by Iluvatar for the coming of the Firstborn, Middle-earth lay in a twilight beneath the *stars that Varda had wrought in the ages forgotten of her labours in Ea*.





Of the coming of the elves and the captivity of Melkor said:


> She took the silver dews from the vats of Telperion, and therewith she made *new *stars and brighter against the coming of the Firstborn


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## Gothmog (Feb 12, 2007)

I must say that this is getting interesting. However, I have also been giving this question much thought over the last couple of days. It is my opinion that we have been looking at this from the wrong direction.

Rather than "greater" meaning 'more significant', it is very likely that Tolkien was using it to refer simply to 'Size of Job' as in the great works of the Valar being the Shaping of the Lands and Seas of Arda. By this meaning then, the creation of the new stars would indeed be "*greatest of all the works of the Valar since their coming into Arda*" since it was a job that was spread over the whole of the sky.


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 12, 2007)

That's a very interesting and fresh take on that quote Gothmog, I haven't thought of it in that light. In that meaning the stars were certainly 'greater' than the Trees.

But we can never be completely sure what exactly Tolkien meant by it. And even if we were, still I could contest it and nit-pick that the lands/continents Aulë shaped were a greater benefit for all the inhabitants of Arda, for what else would they have walked on?  Drawn food and sustenance from? Built their dwellings on? 

I have added a poll, so everyone can cast their personal vote.


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## Gothmog (Feb 12, 2007)

I agree with you about "And even if we were, still I could contest it and nit-pick _that the lands/continents Aulë shaped were a greater benefit for all the inhabitants of Arda_"
However, this is still looking at "Greatest" being equal to "Best". I believe that Tolkien was using it to equal 'Biggest'. However, that answers only the Second part of your question anyway.


> Why do you think Tolkien made this statement? Was it merely an oversight or is the wording deliberate and conscious? If so, what do you think was the reasoning behind it?



We can now return to the fun of debating the first part of your question 

I have already voted for the stars. I would not want you to have it too easy in the thread


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## Thorondor_ (Feb 12, 2007)

> And even if we were, still I could contest it and nit-pick that the lands/continents Aulë shaped were a greater benefit for all the inhabitants of Arda


Well, if we are at nitpicking, this argument seems to me to be beyond the scope of this debate ("greatest of all the works of the Valar since their coming into Arda"), since the new stars and the trees occur after the coming of the valar to Arda - while you are invoking something which occured on moment zero or before that (the making of Arda itself).


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 12, 2007)

The way I see it is, chronologically:

1. the Ainur made their music but that was merely a vision, and nothing was actually made yet

2. Eru let the world come into existence, but again, only an outline of it, the majority of Arda being empty, clay in the hands of the Ainur who would choose to enter

3. Some of the Ainur enter Arda and begin labouring therein



> _Ainulindalë_
> But when the Valar entered into Eä they were at first astounded and at a loss, for it was as if naught was yet made which they had seen in vision, and all was but on point to begin and yet unshaped, and it was dark. For the Great Music had been but the growth and flowering of thought in the Tuneless Halls, and the Vision only a foreshowing; but now they had entered in at the beginning of Time, and the Valar perceived that the World had been but foreshadowed and foresung, and they must achieve it. So began their great labours in wastes unmeasured and unexplored, and in ages uncounted and forgotten, until in the Deeps of Time and in the midst of the vast halls of Eä there came to be that hour and that place where was made the habitation of the Children of Ilúvatar. And in this work the chief part was taken by Manwë and Aulë and Ulmo; but Melkor too was there from the first, and he meddled in all that was done, turning it if he might to his own desires and purposes; and he kindled great fires. When therefore Earth was yet young and full of flame Melkor coveted it, and he said to the other Valar: 'This shall be my own kingdom; and I name it unto myself!'



Hence, the making of continents by Aulë seems to me well within the scope of _"...since their [the Valar's] coming into Arda."_

And 3 votes for the stars already, as opposed to my one vote for the Trees. Wretched, no-good star lovers!


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## Thorondor_ (Feb 12, 2007)

> 2. Eru let the world come into existence, but again, only an outline of it, the majority of Arda being empty, clay in the hands of the Ainur who would choose to enter
> 
> 3. Some of the Ainur enter Arda and begin labouring therein


Your timeline is a bit off - some of the ainur entered Ea and began working . If I am not mistaken, you are confusing Ea with Arda.

What I understand by the moment the valar enter Arda is them entering the solar system (Arda it is equated with it in Atrabeth), after its creation was completed (by them too).


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 12, 2007)

I don't think I'm confusing the two, perhaps I should just have made it clearer that I was referring to Ea when I said 'world' under point 2. 

To my understanding, Ea is the universe and Arda only one part of it, albeit a crucial part. And my knowledge of the Athrabeth may be a little rusty, so could you quote the part where it says some Ainur entered Ea, i.e. not Arda specifically? And even if they had entered another part of Ea prior to entering Arda, none of the labours of the Valar in Arda (and that includes Aulë's raising of the continents of Arda) can't have begun.


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## Thorondor_ (Feb 12, 2007)

> so could you quote the part where it says some Ainur entered Ea, i.e. not Arda specifically?


 Well, I only said that "Arda it is equated with [the solar system] in Atrabeth", which is stated in:


Author's second note on the Commentary said:


> Physically Arda was what we should call the Solar System.


 Concerning the valar first entering Ea and not Arda, the Silmarillion states:


Ainulindale said:


> But when the Valar entered into Ea they were at first astounded and at a loss, for it was as if naught was yet made which they had seen in vision, and all was but on point to begin and yet unshaped, and it was dark.


Or am I missing something??


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 12, 2007)

Oh, okay, Arda is supposed to be (in) the Solar System, I agree with that, since these stories are supposed to take place on a planet that is supposed to be our own, but in a fictional time.

Thanks for the quote, that is actually part of the quote I cited in my earlier post, we just understood it differently, i.e. I took Ea to be synonymous with Arda because the Valar were associated with Arda, not another part of Ea, where other events might have happened, unrelated to these stories. Also, the Valar are only called by that name after they enter Arda, and they are referred thus in the quote.

But I'm rambling, and we've strayed from the main topic, anyhow.


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## Gothmog (Feb 13, 2007)

Thorondor_ said:


> Well, if we are at nitpicking, this argument seems to me to be beyond the scope of this debate ("greatest of all the works of the Valar since their coming into Arda"), since the new stars and the trees occur after the coming of the valar to Arda - while you are invoking something which occured on moment zero or before that (the making of Arda itself).


Well to go into "Nit-Picking" the Shaping of the the Lands and Seas of Arda was not "moment zero" Before these could be Shaped, Arda had to be given Physical Reality. So moment zero would be the creation of Arda within Ea. It was only at this time that the "Great Works of the Valar within Arda" could begin. That is the shaping of the lands, the raising of the mountains the delving of the seas. Don't forget, Arda was not made whole and complete by a single thought. It took much time and a great deal of work on the part of All the Ainur involved.

Now as to the question of the Greater work of the New Stars.

It is obvious that the New Stars 'as created' could only be done after the creation of the Trees, this is so because Varda "_took the silver dews from the vats of Telperion, and therewith she made new stars and brighter against the coming of the Firstborn_" There is no need to question if she could have made them by other means as she chose to use the dews of Telperion. However, this also does not mean that the trees were the greater work because of this.

Yavanna created the Two Trees to give light to Valinor and in this they did a marvelous job and Yavanna was content with this. Varda however, could see a new and better way of using the Dew from Telperion to give light and hope to the forsaken peoples of Middle-earth and to set trouble in the heart of the great enemy of Elves, Men to come, and the Valar themselves. This was a work both gross and subtle, gross by the scale of the work (the whole of the sky and visible over the whole of Arda (where view of the stars were not blocked by too much light,) and subtle by the way hope was given to the peoples of Middle-earth and trouble put in the heart of Morgoth.

Truly the greatest of all the works of the Valar.


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## Thorondor_ (Feb 13, 2007)

> Well to go into "Nit-Picking" the Shaping of the the Lands and Seas of Arda was not "moment zero" Before these could be Shaped, Arda had to be given Physical Reality. So moment zero would be the creation of Arda within Ea. It was only at this time that the "Great Works of the Valar within Arda" could begin. That is the shaping of the lands, the raising of the mountains the delving of the seas. Don't forget, Arda was not made whole and complete by a single thought. It took much time and a great deal of work on the part of All the Ainur involved.


Well, my last thought on this matter is that you are making a false separation between "giving physical reality" to Arda and shaping the continents of the earth - since this step is crucial and critical in defining what Arda actually is.


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## Greenwood (Feb 13, 2007)

Ithrynluin,

I have to go with Gothmog on this one. Not only were the stars to be seen from all of Arda and to give hope to all its inhabitants, the stars are to endure through all the ages until the "ending of days". They are beyond the evils take came into Arda.


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 14, 2007)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you old fogies of a feather always stick together.  

Glad to have you back, Greenwood.


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## Greenwood (Feb 15, 2007)

Ithrynluin said:


> Yeah, yeah, yeah, you old fogies of a feather always stick together.
> 
> Glad to have you back, Greenwood.



Eh?? I couldn't quite hear you over the sound of my creaking joints. 

Thank you for the greeting. Unfortunately, now I have to disappear again for a little while -- I am going to be out of the country until the end of the month.


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## Gift of Names (May 3, 2007)

I agree with everyone who wrote that the stars, being able to illuminate the world as a whole from the heavens, was the greater accomplishment. Not to discount the Two Trees as magnificent, of course. Their profound illumination could never be matched, after all.


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## YayGollum (May 3, 2007)

Hm. I missed this thread when it first came out, I guess. oh well. I shall go with the two trees as being greater, largely because I enjoy taking the least popular viewpoint.  How are the stars so great? A bunch of light-filled liquid fixed in the sky by way of creepy magic. Varda = a truck driver. Oh, but there was a bit of art to it! She placed the liquid in the shape of a sickle. Hmph. Poor Mel. The girl he was after before time began choosing that spirit of sock puppet Manwe over him, then, when he wasn't even doing anything, she calls attention to him, apparently attempting to get people to hate him even more than they already did. oh well. A spiteful invention = not so great. 

The trees, on top of a different hand, were easily cooler. A combination of many creepy powers from different Valar types, so plenty of art involved. Way more fun than stars, since they were actually something you could touch. Lots of those boring Vanyar types, arguing over who'd get to tend to the trees that day, lots of tree houses and climbing elf kids, lots of initial carvings, lots of picnics nearby, lots of elves making a holiday of their visit to the things, if they lived a while away. Very unlike superly boring stars, which everyone eventually just got used to and took for granted.


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## PaigeSinclaire88 (Dec 15, 2016)

Ithrynluin said:


> I find the highlighted part difficult to agree with.
> 
> Doubtless Varda's efforts were great and admirable, and many among the free peoples gained hope from the stars in after years, but wasn't Yavanna's making of the Two Trees a greater work?
> 
> ...




In my opinion these reoccurring inconsistencies ONLY because they're reoccurring that Tolkien must have found a need for them, I'm guessing on a deeper level. Tolkien as we know was a spiritual man with many many deep thoughts and feelings and it was this that led him to write in the first place. It's these inconsistencies are important either to the audience (and he wants us to question what we think we know and believe) or he simply kept them in for us to on a deeper level question the motives of his characters. I say this because as a writer myself I do not normally keep things in my short stories if later on I see the inconsistencies. Having said that, I feel writing is much like being the director of a film making every decision.


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## OfRhosgobel (Jan 3, 2017)

Ithrynluin said:


> I find the highlighted part difficult to agree with.
> 
> Doubtless Varda's efforts were great and admirable, and many among the free peoples gained hope from the stars in after years, but wasn't Yavanna's making of the Two Trees a greater work?
> 
> ...



They only thing about Varda's work that could set it greater than the two trees is that the stars were cast into the heavens for all the world to see, and throughout all the ages of the world even unto this one they remain...


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## Phuc Do (Feb 9, 2017)

I don't really care about trees and stars:S


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## Palantir (Mar 20, 2018)

It certainly is a riveting debate, is it not?


Judging the two works, they are great indeed.
There are other great works to, commonly glossed over:
_
"But behold! when the Valar entered into the World they were at first astounded and at a loss, for it was as if naught was yet made which they had seen in vision, and all was but on point to begin and yet unshapen; and it was dark. For the Great Music had been but the growth and flowering of thought in the Timeless Halls, and the Vision only a foreshowing; but now they had entered in at the beginning of Time, and the Valar perceived that the World had been but foreshadowed and foresung, and they must achieve it."

"So began their great labours in wastes unmeasured and unexplored, and in ages uncounted and forgotten, until in the Deeps of Time and in the midst of the vast halls of Eä there came to be that hour and that place where was made the habitation of the Children of Ilúvatar."

"And behold! the Valar drew unto them many companions, some less, some well-nigh as great as themselves, and they laboured together in the ordering of the Earth and the curbing of its tumults."
_
While I somewhat agree that Yavanna's great work and Varda's great work were both extremely significant.. There are other works too in ages uncounted and forgotten. That being said, if I'm asked to compare the 2 works, I will have to side with Varda's work.

Varda's work in the vast halls of Ea, is undoubtedly the greater work in its scope. The uncounted stars in the sky are much more ancient. They also stretch at least throughout the local universe and undoubtedly have an affect/influence on potentially MANY other regions in Ea. Also the starlight is what the Quendi awoke to, and it is what they first comprehended. The stars not only provide a light of which Melkor cannot in anyway taint or reach, but also have guided the hopes of men in many iconic moments.

Yavanna's creation is astounding. There is almost something mesmerizing when you really picture what they could have been. Where they so bright as to be unable to look upon to mortal eyes? The perfect harmony with which they aligned their cycles (one wanes as the other is waxing). The hour of blended light that they shared in their cycle. The male & female union.

How large were these trees? Surely they had to be great in stature, but how great? Were these trees rivaling a small mountain in size?
These are all fun questions to contemplate.

These beings were sang into existence by Yavanna. Undoubtedly one of the most amazing Valar. Life in general seems to be her cares in Arda. Whereas Manwe knows the paths of the winds, and the airs, Ulmo is the lord of the waters and the veins of the world, Aule fashions the lands... But Yavanna. She enriches the whole world with her work. Things that grow and live. Plants, Animals. Things that walk on foot, fly with wing, swim with fin, crawl, creep, or jump. Great forests of trees, ecosystems that enrich and in turn shape the land. "Moss upon stones or the _small_ and _secret things_ in the mould"

_"In reverence Yavanna is next to Varda among the Queens of the Valar"
_
Were you to ask the Eldar, maybe they would revere Varda's work as Greatest. But Both have their worth, and contribute to the other.

Would the sunset be beautiful if there were no eyes to see it? Would eyes perceive the beauty of a sunset if there were none?


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## Rána (Mar 27, 2018)

Palantir said:


> But Both have their worth, and contribute to the other.



Well said.


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