# Was Gandalf ever born?



## Turin

Were gandalf and the other wizards ever born . What happened to the other five wizards besides gandalf and sauruman.


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## Ithrynluin

Gandalf and the other 4 Wizards were Maiar (immortal angelic beings), similar to the Valar (the gods) but of a lesser order. They were never really born, rather they were the offspring of Ilúvatar's (the creator of all) thought.

Besides Gandalf and Saruman:
---> Radagast's fate is unknown. He failed his mission of aiding Men and Elves, but he didn't do evil, like Saruman did. Whether he was summoned back to Valinor or remained in ME, we will never know.
---> The 2 Blue Wizards went far into the East of ME and there remained. They do not come into the tales that concern the NW of ME (tLOTR).


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## Turin

Thanks alot.


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## mrichy555

i thought gandalf was istari, which drew power from the maiar, and not an actual maiar himself


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## Celebthôl

no they were Maia but they were called Istarí, they went in Man form but were wiser and powerfuller!!

Thôl


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## mrichy555

oo, i thought they lost power when they took human form. i guess i better reread them books eh? haha


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## Celebthôl

lol, nah they loose their power only if they get it taken off them by the Valar, and yeah its best to read it again to gain a better understanding of it all!

Thôl


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## Finduilas

Well,the names of the other two blue wizards are Pallando and Alatar but I don't know what actually happens to them.


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## Rangerdave

Maybe these passages will help answer your questions.



> Wizard is a translation of Quenya istar (Sindarin ithron): one of the members of an "order" (as they call it), claiming to possess, and exhibiting, eminent knowledge of the history and nature the World. The translation (through suitable in its relation to "wise" and other ancient words of knowing, similar to that of istar in Quenya) is not perhaps happy, since Heren Istarion or "Order of Wizards" was quite distinct from "wizards" and "magicians" of later legend; they belonged solely to the Third Age and then departed, and none save maybe Elrond, Círdan and Galadriel discovered of what kind they were or whence they came.
> 
> Among Men they were supposed (at first) by those that had dealings with them to be Men who had acquired lore and arts by long and secret study. They first appeared in Middle-earth about the year 1000 of the Third Age, but for long they went about in simple guise, as it were of Men already old in years but hale in body, travellers and wanderers, gaining knowledge of Middle-earth and all that dwelt therein, but revealing to none their powers and purposes. In that time Men saw them seldom and heeded them little.
> 
> But as the shadow of Sauron began to grow and take shape again, they became more active and sought ever to contest the growth of the Shadow, and to move Elves and Men to beware of their peril. Then far and wide rumour of their comings and goings, and their meddling in many matters, was noised about the Men; and Men perceived that they did not die, but remained the same (unless it were that they aged somewhat in looks), while the fathers and sons of Men passed away. Men, therefore, grew to fear them, even when they loved them, and they were held to be of the Elven-race (with whom, indeed, they often consorted).
> Yet they were not so. For they came from over the Sea out of the Uttermost West; though this was for long known only to Círdan, Guardian of the Third Ring, master of the Grey Havens, who saw their landings upon the western shores.
> 
> Emissaries they were from Lords of the West, the Valar, who still took counsel for the governance of Middle-earth, and when the shadow of Sauron began first to stir again took this means of resisting him. For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies of as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years. And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed; whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men and Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt.





> When maybe a thousand years had passed, and the first shadow had fallen on Greenwood the Great, the Istari or Wizards appeared in Middle-earth. It was afterwards said that they came out of the Far West and were messengers sent to contest the power of Sauron, and to unite all those who had the will to resist him; but they were forbidden to match his power with power, or to seek to dominate Elves and Men by force or fear.
> 
> They came therefore in the shape of Men, though they were never young and aged only slowly, and they had many powers of mind and hand. They revealed their true name to few, but used such names as were given to them.
> 
> The two highest of this order (of whom it is said there were five) were called by the Eldar Curunír, “the Man of Skill”, and Mithrandir, “the Grey Pilgrim”, but by Men in the North Saruman and Gandalf. Curunír journeyed often into the East, but dwelt at last in Isengard. Mithrandir was closest in friendship with the Eldar, and wandered mostly in the West, and never made for himself any lasting abode.




Big quotes huh?
RD


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## Finduilas

Yes and here is a bit more from the same place:



> Of these Curunir was the eldest and came first,and after him came Mithrandir and Radagast,and others of the Istari who went into the east of Middle-earth,and do not come into these tales.Radagast was the friend of all beasts and birds


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## Great Khan

it says somewere (i forget were) that Saruman walks with the two blue wizards all the way to Rhun in the east and abandons them and moves into the western regions of M-E


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## Thorondor_

*Re: Gandalf*

Tolkien said in a letter that Morinehtar and Rómestámo (Darkness-slayer and East-helper) are said to have arrived in the Second Age, around the year 1600, at the time of the Forging of the One Ring.


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## spirit

*Re: Gandalf*



Thorondor_ said:


> Tolkien said in a letter that Morinehtar and Rómestámo (Darkness-slayer and East-helper) are said to have arrived in the Second Age, around the year 1600, at the time of the Forging of the One Ring.


I thought that they all arrived at the same time..?


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## Inderjit S

*Re: Gandalf*

Tolkien revised the history of the Istari so that the Blue Wizards arrived in the Second Age.


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## Telëlambe

*Re: Gandalf*

Well, do u really think there was anything stopping the Istari from escaping the frail forms they had and using there full devine power? was there bonds layd on them by a higher power? or do you think this was purely of choice.


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## Ithrynluin

*Re: Gandalf*

Yes, the task was given them by the Valar, and they had to carry it out 'wearing' bodies, and thus being weakened in a way, and having to learn much anew. They were forbidden to match Sauron's power with direct power of their own, but rather work through the free peoples of Middle-earth.


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## Telëlambe

Yeah, well i know that, But do you really think the valar had the power to restrict one of there own kind in any form?


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## new-chivalry

Finduilas said:


> Well,the names of the other two blue wizards are Pallando and Alatar but I don't know what actually happens to them.


Where did you find that out? I've read the Silmarillion (in fact I just finished it for the second time recently) but it only mentions Mithrandir, Curinir, and Radagast.


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## Ithrynluin

The Blue Wizards are briefly mentioned in TLOTR, and then more is written about them in _The Unfinished Tales_ and _The History of Middle-earth XII: The Peoples of Middle-earth_.


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## Kelonus

All I have and read is The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings Trilogy. I think I'll just stick to that along with the information I across about Middle Earth, lol. So much history in the world, which is great, but wow.


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## Telëlambe

Thorondor_ said:


> Yes, the posibility of total annihilation of the soul. This is how I interpret Saruman's death.



That would be the only case of that happening, Eru didnt even 'annihialate' the spirit of melkor, they just kicked him out of arda, the valar even forgave him the first time, and would have perhaps pardoned sauron after the war of wrath if he wasn't so ashamed and ran away. 
I think when saruman died his spirit was punished, but forgiven by the Valar.


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## Ithrynluin

All spirits (_fëar_) proceed from Eru, are given free will, and are therefore part of Eru's plan. It makes no sense that any spirit could be destroyed, only their bodies (_hröar_).


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## Alatar

Saruman can not die.
He did not die.
He will not die.
After a time of punishment in ME with no body, the valar will summon him and they will paradon him.(the he will kill the two trees and....wait thats the other evil spirt!)Yup the valar are piting people.


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