# Who else is afraid that the Amazon The Lord of the Rings on Prime series could disappoint Tolkien enthusiasts?



## Akhôrahil (Nov 26, 2020)

I am afraid that the new series could be disappointing if they do not hire an expert on Tolkien's writings. Has anybody read Helge Fauskanger's, the norwegian linguist's Ideas for a Westernesse Movie on his website that deals with Tolkien's languages? I liked it a lot.


----------



## Varking (Dec 24, 2020)

It’ll disappoint in the same way that the movies did. They weren’t 1:1 adaptations of the novels. You will have to find parts to enjoy and parts to critique.


----------



## Halasían (Dec 24, 2020)

It's like I've said here before, and how I approached the PJ fanfix ....
Hope for the best and expect the worst.


----------



## Varking (Dec 24, 2020)

Halasían said:


> It's like I've said here before, and how I approached the PJ fanfix ....
> Hope for the best and expect the worst.


This is the best mindset people should have for this. I’m excited for new content but I won’t let it tarnish my view on the novels if I don’t like it.


----------



## Olorgando (Dec 24, 2020)

If this series is taking place in the Second Age, there is far less to measure it against than even in The Hobbit. The Akallabêth in my paperback edition of the Sil is all of 29 pages long. Pile on all of its variants, additional writings, annals, lines of kings and whatever dealing with the Second Age in HoMe and UT, and that adds very little story-telling - and the time frame covered is about 3,400 years, compared to a bit over a year in TH and (after the Long-expected Party) LoTR.

So huge leeway to invent stuff, and I'm tempted to bet that they'll draw on what I'll call the "sword 'n' sorcery canon" of films and TV (one sure way to (re-) hook addicts on withdrawal is to give them more of the same ...  ). There seems to be a ton of such stuff just from the last twenty years (Netflix & Co. are very recent developments).

So to borrow part of the refrain of a song I recently discovered (first performed in the '60's, as will not surprise some people):

"Compared to what?"

PJ's double trilogy, is what I'm betting on. For all of his many faults in mangling and distorting the original stories, PJ and Weta did manage some stunning visuals. They were often benchmarks, and not just in CGI, but in attention to details in sets, miniatures, costumes and such.
Others may be able to compare what PJ did to GoT (and stuff I've never even heard / read about); I am not.

I just had another thought about the term "Tolkien Enthusiasts".
Just some sales figures from about 20 years ago: LoTR about 50 million, TH about 40 M ... the Sil between 2 and 3 M. HoMe and such stuff *way* behind that.
The Second Age is absolutely Silmarillion territory. Which means (for the books) lacking one specific cast of character, and very important ones: Hobbits.
Now that is definitely not the case in nearly the same degree with PJ's films. I mean, the title character of "The Hobbit" has screen time ... has anyone done statistics on this? My gut feeling is that he barely makes the top ten (but then even the EE of BoFA was released five years ago).

Amazon's stuff will most likely give an almost imperceptible nod towards Middle-earth once per episode, and otherwise go its own way. And don't give me "Young Galadriel"!!! She was probably 20,000 (sun) years plus the odd millennium old when the First Age ended. Probably the only one in Middle-earth who could have called her "young" with justification at the time of LoTR was Cirdan ...


----------



## Varking (Dec 24, 2020)

It was just rumors about Young Galadriel. I don’t believe that was actually something from Amazon.


----------



## Olorgando (Dec 24, 2020)

Varking said:


> It was just rumors about Young Galadriel. I don’t believe that was actually something from Amazon.


I have certainly not been following this. But I do believe to have a memory, perhaps in the time before the pandemic filming shutdown, that an actress had actually been *cast* for a "Young Galadriel" role. Hang on ...

OK, here's Squint-eyed Southerner's link in his 18 December 2019 post in the "Lord of the Rings on Prime Updates (Thanks Varking!)" thread about "Young Galadriel", admittedly from "Variety". And very pre-pandemic.









‘Lord of the Rings’ Series Taps Morfydd Clark as Young Galadriel (EXCLUSIVE)


“His Dark Materials” star Morfydd Clark has landed a lead role in Amazon’s upcoming “Lord of the Rings” series. She joins a cast that includes Markella Kavenagh, Josep…




www.google.com





Unfounded rumors do pollute the Internet massively. And "Variety" ain't the New York Times or Washington Post.
But nor are the the Washington Times or New York Post.

But then, has there been any explicit statement by Amazon that "Young Galadriel ain't happenin'"?


----------



## Varking (Dec 24, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> I have certainly not been following this. But I do believe to have a memory, perhaps in the time before the pandemic filming shutdown, that an actress had actually been *cast* for a "Young Galadriel" role. Hang on ...
> 
> OK, here's Squint-eyed Southerner's link in his 18 December 2019 post about "Young Galadriel", admittedly from "Variety". And very pre-pandemic.
> 
> ...


I believe it’s just a youngER Galadriel. And no there has not been any explicit statement because other than a trailer posted to the subreddit and a map on social media they haven’t really said much at all.


----------



## Olorgando (Dec 24, 2020)

Varking said:


> I believe it’s just a youngER Galadriel.


YoungER? Cate Blanchett was in her early thirties when the LoTR films hit the cinemas, and eleven years older when the TH films did the same.
Orlando Bloom, about eight years younger than Cate, may have *wished* that his on-screen persona had been as "well-preserved" as Cate's. Big fail there!


----------



## Varking (Dec 24, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> YoungER? Cate Blanchett was in her early thirties when the LoTR films hit the cinemas, and eleven years older when the TH films did the same.
> Orlando Bloom, about eight years younger than Cate, may have *wished* that his on-screen persona had been as "well-preserved" as Cate's. Big fail there!


But this will take place before the films so she will be younger.


----------



## Olorgando (Dec 25, 2020)

Melkor (not yet Morgoth) was imprisoned in Valinor for three Valian Ages after the Valar had attacked him to get him (successfully) away from Middle-earth. Only after that did they lead the Elves across Middle-earth to its western edges, and then on to Valinor. A Valian Age, IIRC, was 1,000 Valian years; and a Valian year ten years of the (later) sun. Now, were the Elves celibate for any long time in Valinor? I doubt that even JRRT intended that (he had four children, remember). So I'll just state, perhaps provocatively, that Galadriel was born in the first (Valian) millennium of Melkor's imprisonment in Valinor.

That would make her at least 2,000 Valian (or 20,000 sun) years old at the rising of the orbs that were the successors to the Two Trees. Add 600 sun years of the First Age, 3,441 of the Second, and 3,021 of the Third before she left Middle-earth. Makes 27,062 years, likely the odd millennium more. Go back even to the *beginning* of the Second Age, and she's minimum 20,600 years old. Now maybe you can get your head around the concept of 20,600 years meaning "young" compared to 27,062 years; I can't.


----------



## Varking (Dec 25, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> Melkor (not yet Morgoth) was imprisoned in Valinor for three Valian Ages after the Valar had attacked him to get him (successfully) away from Middle-earth. Only after that did they lead the Elves across Middle-earth to its western edges, and then on to Valinor. A Valian Age, IIRC, was 1,000 Valian years; and a Valian year ten years of the (later) sun. Now, were the Elves celibate for any long time in Valinor? I doubt that even JRRT intended that (he had four children, remember). So I'll just state, perhaps provocatively, that Galadriel was born in the first (Valian) millennium of Melkor's imprisonment in Valinor.
> 
> That would make her at least 2,000 Valian (or 20,000 sun) years old at the rising of the orbs that were the successors to the Two Trees. Add 600 sun years of the First Age, 3,441 of the Second, and 3,021 of the Third before she left Middle-earth. Makes 27,062 years, likely the odd millennium more. Go back even to the *beginning* of the Second Age, and she's minimum 20,600 years old. Now maybe you can get your head around the concept of 20,600 years meaning "young" compared to 27,062 years; I can't.


Yeah I guess that’s the difference. I can understand the concept of being youngER in this regard.


----------



## Phuc Do (Dec 25, 2020)

I am just happy there is Tolkien stuff onscreen again.


----------



## Varking (Dec 25, 2020)

Phuc Do said:


> I am just happy there is Tolkien stuff onscreen again.


This is how I feel as well. If it’s great it’ll add to the overall greatness of this IP. If it’s bad people will separate it and not let it tarnish the books.


----------



## Olorgando (Dec 25, 2020)

Varking said:


> Phuc Do said:
> 
> 
> > I am just happy there is Tolkien stuff onscreen again.
> ...


I'm just wondering to what degree it will be *recognizable* as Tolkien.
Almost all of the characters that have been revealed so far were definitely non-Tolkien, and there is just so little story in the way of LoTR and TH that the Amazon scriptwriters will have to invent most of it themselves. Especially in TH, PJ invented a lot of padding, but at least the characters involved were familiar ones (_pace_ Tauriel and Alfrid). Here, even that will be missing.


----------



## Varking (Dec 25, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> I'm just wondering to what degree it will be *recognizable* as Tolkien.
> Almost all of the characters that have been revealed so far were definitely non-Tolkien, and there is just so little story in the way of LoTR and TH that the Amazon scriptwriters will have to invent most of it themselves. Especially in TH, PJ invented a lot of padding, but at least the characters involved were familiar ones. Here, even that will be missing.


We won’t know until we see footage and get a glimpse of the story being told. If it’s done right they will feel very Tolkien. If wrong it’ll be viewed as a directors take on the Tolkien universe.


----------



## Phuc Do (Dec 25, 2020)

Yeah at this point we know nothing of the plot and timeline it's gonna be set in.
They are definetly gonna have to take a lot of freedom with all of it. But at least settings
and costumes they have something to get a pinpoint with PH stuffs


----------



## Olorgando (Dec 26, 2020)

@Varking 
is that map including Númenor, that you started the thread "Lord of the Rings on Prime Updates" with back on 16 February 2019, still in any way, shape or fashion current? The Downfall of Númenor took place 3,141 years before the (second and final) downfall of Barad-dûr; and Númenor's history stretches to over 6,400 years before the end of the Third Age. Now even for Middle-earth, "fashion" (in whatever aspects of life) to remain unchanged for that long a time strikes me as unlikely (even if Men took their "fashion cues" from the preservation-minded Elves - not likely after a certain time in Númenor).


----------



## Varking (Dec 26, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> @Varking
> is that map including Númenor, that you started the thread "Lord of the Rings on Prime Updates" with back on 16 February 2019, still in any way, shape or fashion current? The Downfall of Númenor took place 3,141 years before the (second and final) downfall of Barad-dûr; and Númenor's history stretches to over 6,400 years before the end of the Third Age. Now even for Middle-earth, "fashion" (in whatever aspects of life) to remain unchanged for that long a time strikes me as unlikely (even if Men took their "fashion cues" from the preservation-minded Elves - not likely after a certain time in Númenor).


That is currently the most up to date map we have for the show. After that our subreddit was given the first trailer that had anything to do with the show which was just the trailer for the writers room basically. Outside of that there have been few official media updates and tons of theory crafting based on actors, producers and directions amongst other hires. For instance they hired an intimacy coordinator for the show. I believe this is the standard for Hollywood now regardless if your movie has sex scenes or not. As long as there is kissing I believe you need to hire one. But this hiring cause an uproar about how this series is going to be filled with sexual content and nudity. 
Needless to say, I wish we would get an official stance on it from Amazon and not just left up in the air.


----------



## Olorgando (Dec 26, 2020)

Varking said:


> Needless to say, I wish we would get an official stance on it from Amazon and not just left up in the air.


As to official stance: has Amazon made any statements about how far they will record the first season before the first episodes are aired?
Like, will they do all principal filming with the live actors before the premiere as PJ did with his two trilogies?
Or will there be overlap, say when episode 1 airs, episode 11 is being filmed?
And is there a fixed date for the first episode to air, or is the pandemic continuing to throw monkey wrenches?


----------



## Varking (Dec 26, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> As to official stance: has Amazon made any statements about how far they will record the first season before the first episodes are aired?
> Like, will they do all principal filming with the live actors before the premiere as PJ did with his two trilogies?
> Or will there be overlap, say when episode 1 airs, episode 11 is being filmed?
> And is there a fixed date for the first episode to air, or is the pandemic continuing to throw monkey wrenches?


The first two episodes are done being filmed. Now it’s a matter of editing and tweaking them. The other episodes are still being filmed but I believe we will have everything all done together before anything actually airs.


----------



## Elthir (Dec 26, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> ( . . . ) So I'll just state, perhaps provocatively, that Galadriel was born in the first (Valian) millennium of Melkor's imprisonment in Valinor.



Although we don't have an exact number with respect to Sun Years, Galadriel was born in Valian Year 1362.

🐾


----------



## Olorgando (Dec 26, 2020)

Elthir said:


> Although we don't have an exact number with respect to Sun Years, Galadriel was born in Valian Year 1362.
> 
> 🐾


Checking my HoMe index volume, I see that entries for Galadriel take up practically an entire page. 
Could you soothe my jangling nerves by pointing out to me to where (I'm guessing some annals) this entry can be found?


----------



## Elthir (Dec 26, 2020)

Sure! 

Annals of Aman, _Morgoth's Ring_, section four -- under notes and changes made on the typescript (thus later than the _Annals of Aman_ was written), commentary to section 86: *"After the annal for 1350 two entries were added: 1362 Galadriel, daughter of Finrod, born in Eldamar"* ( . . .)

🐾


----------



## 1stvermont (Dec 26, 2020)

Akhôrahil said:


> I am afraid that the new series could be disappointing if they do not hire an expert on Tolkien's writings. Has anybody read Helge Fauskanger's, the norwegian linguist's Ideas for a Westernesse Movie on his website that deals with Tolkien's languages? I liked it a lot.



my guess is it will be much like the hobbit but worse. to fill all the shows they will add content not of Tolkien but set in his "world." I am not sure if i will even watch it.


----------



## Varking (Dec 27, 2020)

1stvermont said:


> my guess is it will be much like the hobbit but worse. to fill all the shows they will add content not of Tolkien but set in his "world." I am not sure if i will even watch it.


I’d give it a chance. If it sucks then pretend it doesn’t exist. If it’s great then you get to discuss it the same time everyone else is getting to see it for the first time.


----------



## 1stvermont (Dec 27, 2020)

Varking said:


> I’d give it a chance. If it sucks then pretend it doesn’t exist. If it’s great then you get to discuss it the same time everyone else is getting to see it for the first time.



that is what i will probably end up doing as well.


----------



## Olorgando (Dec 27, 2020)

I have no idea how to get an Amazon Prime (or Netflix, or Disney, or whatever) subscription - or whatever it's called. I also have no interest.
All I know is that we constantly get promotional (snail-) mail from two sources:
from our cable TV provider, now part of Vodafone, who would also like to provide us with phone and Internet services, and our phone (including mobile) and Internet services provider, Deutsche Telekom, who would also like to provide us with TV services. The latter even call (on the non-mobile phone) sporadically in such attempts. Can't fault them for lack of optimism, I should by all rights now be classified as a hopeless curmudgeon. Maybe they have new employees do the repeat calls (this would come close to hazing!).
It's just that I have come to the conclusion that the content offered by any and all pay-TV providers amounts, to us, to a gigantic haystack with microscopic needles. It's what happened to computer games, even starting with the offline stuff in the late '90's. There are to us good reasons that my wife and I have not been in a movie theater since January 2004 (RoTK), and why my TV viewing nosedived sharply in the new century. After my effective retirement from office duty with the company in May 2017, I had a short uptick watching documentaries, but I now know that the total content over all 54 TV channels we get is surprisingly limited. And some more recent ones have shown a marked decline in quality, drifting in the direction of "docutainment", a term that raises wolverine hackles on my neck. And don't get me started on "scripted reality" ... 👿👿👿👿👿


----------



## Varking (Dec 27, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> I have no idea how to get an Amazon Prime (or Netflix, or Disney, or whatever) subscription - or whatever it's called. I also have no interest.
> All I know is that we constantly get promotional (snail-) mail from two sources:
> from our cable TV provider, now part of Vodafone, who would also like to provide us with phone and Internet services, and our phone (including mobile) and Internet services provider, Deutsche Telekom, who would also like to provide us with TV services. The latter even call (on the non-mobile phone) sporadically in such attempts. Can't fault them for lack of optimism, I should by all rights now be classified as a hopeless curmudgeon. Maybe they have new employees do the repeat calls (this would come close to hazing!).
> It's just that I have come to the conclusion that the content offered by any and all pay-TV providers amounts, to us, to a gigantic haystack with microscopic needles. It's what happened to computer games, even starting with the offline stuff in the late '90's. There are to us good reasons that my wife and I have not been in a movie theater since January 2004 (RoTK), and why my TV viewing nosedived sharply in the new century. After my effective retirement from office duty with the company in May 2017, I had a short uptick watching documentaries, but I now know that the total content over all 54 TV channels we get is surprisingly limited. And some more recent ones have shown a marked decline in quality, drifting in the direction of "docutainment", a term that raises wolverine hackles on my neck. And don't get me started on "scripted reality" ... 👿👿👿👿👿


I can make a guide for you when the series goes live on how to watch the show or you could always wait for the DVDs.


----------



## Olorgando (Dec 27, 2020)

Varking said:


> I can make a guide for you when the series goes live on how to watch the show or you could always wait for the DVDs.


Thanks, Varking  . I can imagine quite a few other people would also appreciate such a guide to help them get off the fence they may be sitting on about this series.


----------



## Hisoka Morrow (Dec 27, 2020)

Well...instead of all kinds of expect, let's wait anyway, after all, dirty stuff had been implied by JRRT in his works, strictly speaking. I wonder if dirty stuff only appear among those characters belong to the Dark Lord's side, it'd be another kind of masterpiece, just like those horny characters in "Outlaws of the Marsh".


----------



## Phuc Do (Dec 28, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> Thanks, Varking  . I can imagine quite a few other people would also appreciate such a guide to help them get off the fence they may be sitting on about this series.


Just torrent it like all tv shows l watch


----------



## Aldarion (Dec 28, 2020)

I am not *afraid.* I just take it as an unavoidable fact.


Olorgando said:


> I'm just wondering to what degree it will be *recognizable* as Tolkien.
> Almost all of the characters that have been revealed so far were definitely non-Tolkien, and there is just so little story in the way of LoTR and TH that the Amazon scriptwriters will have to invent most of it themselves. Especially in TH, PJ invented a lot of padding, but at least the characters involved were familiar ones (_pace_ Tauriel and Alfrid). Here, even that will be missing.


Not at all, probably. When you look at all big brand names nowadays - specifically Star Wars and Star Trek - you have completely unrecognizable products which just milk the brand name for cash. I am afraid that will be the fate of this fanfic as well.


----------



## Halasían (Dec 27, 2021)

Aldarion said:


> I am not *afraid.* I just take it as an unavoidable fact.
> 
> Not at all, probably. When you look at all big brand names nowadays - specifically Star Wars and Star Trek - you have completely unrecognizable products which just milk the brand name for cash. I am afraid that will be the fate of this fanfic as well.



I think the whole Disney treatment of Star Wars has turned out to be a _good_ thing. The Mandalorian, Book of Boba Fett... Rogue One... very good. It will remain to be seen what is done with the open-ended Middle Earth stories based in the 2nd Age. Being they are not basing it on a book series such as Lord of the Rings makes it possible to introduce all sorts of things into the world. As Gollum said... 'You'll seee"
So, does it bother anyone that Amazon uses a lot of the same scenery as Wheel of Time?


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Dec 27, 2021)

Nah -- they've been doing that since the invention of TV.


----------



## Annatar (Dec 28, 2021)

Most of the news and rumors so far have been disappointing, somehow weird or shocking for me.

Latest example from this series of disappointments:

The Lord Of The Rings Rumor Claims One Of Galadriel’s Brothers Plays A Leader Of A Band Of Orcs​


> “Joseph Mawle is reportedly playing a character named ‘Adar’ (Amazon original name) and is an elf but ‘corrupted’ and ‘tortured’.”
> 
> “Adar (joseph Mawle) is apparently in charge of the orcs in this village and the orcs see him as a ‘father figure’ BUT Adar is not an orc, he is an Elf.”
> 
> Now, in YouTube livestream, Fellowship of Fans provided some more details claiming Adar is actually one of Galadriel’s brothers.











The Lord Of The Rings Rumor Claims One Of Galadriel's Brothers Plays A Leader Of A Band Of Orcs


A new rumor for Prime Video's upcoming The Lord of the Rings series claims that one of Galadriel's brothers plays a character named Adar, who is the leader of a band of orcs.




boundingintocomics.com





It's just a rumor, but after Amazon's "Wheel of Time" you have to expect any nonsense, unfortunately...


----------



## Phuc Do (Dec 31, 2021)

Annatar said:


> Most of the news and rumors so far have been disappointing, somehow weird or shocking for me.
> 
> Latest example from this series of disappointments:
> 
> ...


I agree with you I am so afraid that Wheel of Time is gonna get cancelled Rafe really screwed the pooch in season one. What a disaster. Hopefully LOTR series wouldn't be the same trainwreck, I hope they got someone better at the helm than Wheel of TIme had.


----------



## Varking (Jan 13, 2022)

Phuc Do said:


> I agree with you I am so afraid that Wheel of Time is gonna get cancelled Rafe really screwed the pooch in season one. What a disaster. Hopefully LOTR series wouldn't be the same trainwreck, I hope they got someone better at the helm than Wheel of TIme had.


Aren’t they already filming season 2?


----------



## Phuc Do (Jan 13, 2022)

Varking said:


> Aren’t they already filming season 2?


Ye season 1 and 2 filmed straght back to back. But l meant beyond that. They finished it before season 1 released.


----------



## Varking (Jan 13, 2022)

Phuc Do said:


> Ye season 1 and 2 filmed straght back to back. But l meant beyond that. They finished it before season 1 released.


Copy that. I think the show did numbers that are happy with even if it’s not quite the content book fans were looking for.


----------



## Halasían (Jan 14, 2022)

> Who else is afraid that the Amazon The Lord of the Rings on Prime series could disappoint Tolkien enthusiasts?​



It will clearly disappoint 'Tolkien Purists'. Likely not all 'enthusiasts' will be disappointed.


----------



## Varking (Jan 14, 2022)

Halasían said:


> It will clearly disappoint 'Tolkien Purists'. Likely not all 'enthusiasts' will be disappointed.


But a purist would know better than to believe any adaptation would be perfectly like the books. None of the movies we have had so far, even if they are beloved by most, have been pure in regards to the books. There has been many changes.


----------



## Halasían (Jan 15, 2022)

Varking said:


> But a purist would know better than to believe any adaptation would be perfectly like the books. None of the movies we have had so far, even if they are beloved by most, have been pure in regards to the books. There has been many changes.


Yeah, I know that. The movies were just big-budget fanfix though there were some serious changes to storyline and characters. This series will have less to go on so will have more 'leeway' in what they do. Enthusiasts will mostly embrace it for what it is. Purists will hate it because it don't reflect their personal picture of what it would be. My 2¢.


----------



## Varking (Jan 15, 2022)

Halasían said:


> Yeah, I know that. The movies were just big-budget fanfix though there were some serious changes to storyline and characters. This series will have less to go on so will have more 'leeway' in what they do. Enthusiasts will mostly embrace it for what it is. Purists will hate it because it don't reflect their personal picture of what it would be. My 2¢.


Our combined 4 cents are in agreement. I’m going to hope for the best but I doubt I’ll ever consider this to be canon. But I hope it does well enough that we continue to see more and more Tolkien works in the future.


----------



## Olorgando (Jan 15, 2022)

Varking said:


> But I hope it does well enough that we continue to see more and more Tolkien works in the future.


Are you thinking along the lines of what Amazon is basically (probably) doing here, filling in gaps where JRRT gave only scanty details?
The published _Silmarillion_ is coming up on 45 years since publication this year; but then there's CoH at 15 years (2007), B&L at 5 (2017) and FoG at 4 (2018). Which look to many as "filmable excerpts" from The Sil. I've speculated before that _one_ of the reasons for their publication was to push back the date when they would become public domain.
Another point is the amount Amazon had to pay for the rights. Anything similar would almost *force* any further M-e films / TV series into blockbuster territory to recoup that investment - with all the cookie-cutting that is likely to cause.


----------



## Varking (Jan 15, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> Are you thinking along the lines of what Amazon is basically (probably) doing here, filling in gaps where JRRT gave only scanty details?
> The published _Silmarillion_ is coming up on 45 years since publication this year; but then there's CoH at 15 years (2007), B&L at 5 (2017) and FoG at 4 (2018). Which look to many as "filmable excerpts" from The Sil. I've speculated before that _one_ of the reasons for their publication was to push back the date when they would become public domain.
> Another point is the amount Amazon had to pay for the rights. Anything similar would almost *force* any further M-e films / TV series into blockbuster territory to recoup that investment - with all the cookie-cutting that is likely to cause.


I’m thinking Amazon has a lot of freedom within the story for the lesser stories while still remaining true to what Tolkien wrote. As everyone has seen there isn’t a ton of lore written for the era of the story Amazon is telling so they have a lot of room to script their own stuff while still respecting the Tolkien Estate.


----------



## Halasían (Jan 15, 2022)

Varking said:


> Our combined 4 cents are in agreement. I’m going to hope for the best but I doubt I’ll ever consider this to be canon. But I hope it does well enough that we continue to see more and more Tolkien works in the future.


Yeah. I'm expecting something about as canonical along the lines of what the _'Middle Earth: The Shadow of Mordor'_ video game is.


----------



## Halasían (Jan 15, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> Are you thinking along the lines of what Amazon is basically (probably) doing here, filling in gaps where JRRT gave only scanty details?
> The published _Silmarillion_ is coming up on 45 years since publication this year; but then there's CoH at 15 years (2007), B&L at 5 (2017) and FoG at 4 (2018). Which look to many as "filmable excerpts" from The Sil. I've speculated before that _one_ of the reasons for their publication was to push back the date when they would become public domain.
> Another point is the amount Amazon had to pay for the rights. Anything similar would almost *force* any further M-e films / TV series into blockbuster territory to recoup that investment - with all the cookie-cutting that is likely to cause.


Other than some historical references to things, I don't believe Amazon has the full rights to use The Silmarillion stories as material, hence the focus on the 2nd age. I could be wrong though. I do know that Amazon purchased MGM, acquiring the old rights from the United Artists/Saul Zaentz deal that has led to the filming of Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit, and all the appendices information. For some reason I don't think The Silmarillion is under either of these licensing rights.


----------



## Varking (Jan 15, 2022)

Halasían said:


> Yeah. I'm expecting something about as canonical along the lines of what the _'Middle Earth: The Shadow of Mordor'_ video game is.


I think it will be a bit nicer to the lore than those games, but those games were still overall enjoyable for me.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 9, 2022)

Halasían said:


> I do know that Amazon purchased MGM, acquiring the old rights from the United Artists/Saul Zaentz deal that has led to the filming of Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit, and all the appendices information.


Well, hold on to your hats, 'cause heeeere we go! 😁








Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit Movie and Gaming Rights Going up for Sale


The film and gaming rights to The Lord of the Rings and Th Hobbit are going up for sale. According [...]




comicbook.com


----------



## Halasían (Feb 10, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Well, hold on to your hats, 'cause heeeere we go! 😁
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, apparently it wasn't that simple as there are several 'existing agreements' that remain in force for various parts of distribution and such. Warner Brothers is developing the War of the Rohirrim animated project, and there is some litigation going on between Warner and Zaentz over the 'revert' clause. Anyway, I suspect Amazon is a prime (ha ha, see what I did there?) prospect to buy the Zaentz deal.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 10, 2022)

Quite probably-- but if you happen to have a couple of billion lying around. . .

Just think: your own Hobbit theme park, complete with Dwarf-Barrel River Ride!


----------



## arivista (Aug 13, 2022)

I think it is very unlikely the show will be appreciated by those fans who care about integrity of the whole Tolkien’s lore. Even from the scanty information we have now, it can be argued the show will break some significant themes or “rules” Tolkien has established in his world. Even the stuff that seems OK on the surface will likely conflict with these. I will give just one example – the love of Arondir and Bronwyn. But if we can be sure it happens in some cases just from the few things we know, I find it probable it will happen in many more cases.

This will be a longer post, but I feel it is important to describe in more detail, what I mean. (And I apologize for eventual deficiencies of my English, I am not a native speaker.)

For what we know, elf Arondir will have a “forbidden romance” – their words, not mine – with human healer Bronwyn, a single mother of a son (a widow, I suppose; if she had a son out of wedlock, she would be probably the most un-tolkienesque character imaginable. Correct me if I am wrong, but I cannot remember any Tolkien-written character either being born or have a child out of wedlock. And given his orthodox Catholic views, I don’t think he would like to have such in his world).

My problem with that is this: elf-human romance in Tolkien-created world cannot be introduced just willy-nilly, there are some conditions you have to meet, if they are supposed to work within the lore.

First of all, generally speaking, such romance is very unwise and unbecoming, for very good reasons. Love should culminate in marriage, ale marriage is supposed to be a relationship that allows both parties to share their entire life, ideally. At least that would be Tolkien"s view, I believe – again, because of his Catholic viewpoint and because his marriage was exactly like that. (Yes, he survived his wife a little, but over all, he lived with her his whole life.) Of course, this cannot always be the case due to many misfortunes, but it is an ideal to be pursued, and if for some reason you fundamentally cannot achieve it (and you know it beforehand), the marriage probably should not take place, or should be advised against. I believe these would be Tolkien’s views and that he specifically wanted them to be applied to Middle-earth marriages.

Since men are mortal and elves are not, generally they cannot mutually share their entire lives. Sure, humans can, but for elves the marriage would be only tiny portion of their lives. To give you real-world anaogy (albeit not perfect), it could be compared to a case, when someone would want to marry a person he/she just met, who has incurable disease and has only few weeks to live. (Lets now ignore cases, when both knew each other a long time and only decided to marry when they learned about the disease, those would not be analogous). Yes, for one person such relationship would be for life, but for the other only for small part of his/her life. Under such circumstances, marriage is generally not advisable. And with elves and humans it is similar. It is unwise for them to have a romance.

This is the „rule“ (if it can be called that) that is mostly observed in the lore, with few rare exceptions – three, actually. It is acknowledged by Gwindor, when he says to Finduilas about Túrin: 


> „But beware lest you have cause. Not fitting is it that the Elder Children of Iluvatar should wed the Younger; nor is it wise, for they are brief, and soon pass, to leave us in widowhood while the world lasts. Neither will fate suffer it, unless it be once or twice only, for some high cause of doom that we do not perceive.“


Since Gwindor was right about most things, it is fair to assume he is right even in this.

Aragorn is given the same warning by his mother about Arwen: 


> „’My son,’ said Gilraen, ‘your aim is high, even for the descendant of many kings. For this lady is the noblest and fairest that now walks the earth. And it is not fit that mortal should wed with the Elf-kin.’



While in some cases the opposition against elf-human love comes from bigotry (Thingol, for example), Gwindor and Gilraen are described as wise and would not easily succumb to unreasonable prejudice. Therefore I take it their warnings against such relationships are valid. The only exception is a case of „some high cause of doom“, to quote Gwindor. And all three existing exceptions clearly fit the criteria.

Beren and Lúthien are undoubtedly lead by powerful fate, and they retrieve the silmaril, one of the most important accomplishment of the First Age, crucial to other follow-up events.
The love of Tuor and Idril gave birth to Eärendil, who basically saved everyone by reaching Valinor and move Valar to start the War of Wrath. Super important “cause of doom”.
Aragorn was one of the key figures in the War of the Ring and he restored the united Kingdom of Gondor and Arnor, which he ruled with his queen Arwen. Again, very important “cause of doom”, I would say. And if I remember correctly, even Elrond himself says it was destined that by his loss of daughter the kingdom of men will be restored (or something to that purport, but I cannot find it now).

I would also notice, that all three exceptions also follow the „marriage for life“ rule, because the fate of one of the couple is always changed to match the fate of the other, so no one had to live for ages without the other. Lúthien and Arwen became mortal, and Tuor was accepted as one of the Eldar.

While Finduilas also fell in love with Túrin, the fate clearly would not allow it, as Gwindor said, so it does not have to be considered further. It was not the valid exception.

So these are the lore-rules about inter-species romance in Middle-earth. And I simply do not see a way how they can be applied in their entirety to Arondir and Bronwyn, no matter the details of their story. At least some parts of established rules have to be ignored, almost certainly. Let us consider all theoretical possibilities, how their story can be treated, and their feasibility.

First, it is absolutely certain their love will be frowned upon – after all, it is called „forbidden“ love. The disapproval can be theoretically portrayed either as reasonable or unreasonable (i.e. prejudiced). In other words, those people who disaprove of it, can be either shown right or wrong.

If the disapproval will be portrayed as sensible (i.e. sceptics will be proven right), the characters should eventually realize they are not fit for each other and should break up. Only in this case the rules would be followed completely. But I find it extremely unlikely story-wise, because if you have already introduced the concept of forbidden love, you also want it to prevail against all obstacles and opposition, otherwise it would not be emotionally satisfying. Even if they make it a tragic love story, in which one of them dies, they would still want them to keep the love against the social disapproval. They would want to show Arondir and Bronwyn were right and the sceptics wrong.

So that option can be safely rejected: they are not going to portray the disapproval as sensible and right. Those who will or discourage Arondir and Bronwyn from their romance or not believe in them, will be 99,99% proven wrong in the Rings of Power storyline. Even though we have already established, that the disapproval of elf-human love is actually generally sensible in the lore, and it is held even by wise and unprejudiced people. So I would argue Arondir – Bronwyn forbidden love will break the lore in this respect, most likely.

But it can be argued, that Thingol was strongly prejudiced against Lúthien and Beren love and he was proven wrong, so the story of Arondir and Bronwyn might be going in the same direction, therefore not break the rules of the lore. They might be one of the few exceptions, when “high cause of doom” will allow for their relationship. That would still be in accordance with the lore.

Technically, yes, but it creates problems of its own. Because “high cause of doom” must be really high to make it work. It cannot be ordinary, otherwise the fate would not allow it (in Gwindor words). Even the case of Túrin and Finduilas was not high enough to allow for their romance. High cause of doom is by necessity a history-changer, as it was in all three established cased, Lúthien and Beren, Idril and Tuor or Aragorn and Arwen. That would mean Arondir and Bronwyn must be historically (if I can use the term) equally important as all mentioned above. And if so, how come we have not heard a single mention of them before?

It would simply require not only to expand the Tolkien-made story of Second Age, but to positively change it. For example, if they made a LOTR movies with a fifth never-before-mentioned hobbit member of the Fellowship, who carried the Ring half the way to Mordor, no one would consider that just an _expansion_ of the story – it would be simply a change of it. Expansion of the role of Arondir and Bronwyn to the level of “high cause of doom”, that would justify their love as acceptable exception in accordance with rules above, would require change of similar magnitude. So the lore would be broken anyway.

Also I would mention, that Bronwyn being a single mother also diminishes possibility of “high cause of doom”, for it requires exceptionally strong love. But Bronwyn clearly had a relationship with another man. If we assume she is a widow (and did not, for example, have a son through some one-night stand, which would be even worse), it means she already must have loved someone else. That makes it somewhat harder to believe her love to Arondir would be myth-level strong. You might argue there are some examples of myth-level love with a woman married to another (Lancelot and Guinevere), but to me, it would not really fit into Middle-earth lore. I cannot help it – for example, if Beren had been widower before he had met Lúthien, it would make their love story cheaper in my eyes. The “strong fate” aspect of their story would be much harder to believe. Because one aspect of their love is that each is “one and only” for the other. But that would not be the case with widower Beren. And it is the same with Arondir and Bronwyn, even though we do not know any other details yet.

For this reason I do not believe the creators of Rings of Power will be faithful to the Tolkien lore in respect of elf-human love or other related parts of it. Realistically, they cannot. The lore matters to me, so I am not very excited about the show.

As I already said, this is just one example, I believe you could find other. Even the bits and pieces we have been given, show to me they will not really follow the spirit of Tolkien, for lack of better word. They might respect some basic facts, like Celebrimbor will forge the rings, Númenor will fall etc., but it seems the essence will be in many cases quite different from his writings. And that is certainly reason for disappointment for many fans.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 13, 2022)

Welcome to the forum, arivista-- if you'd like to introduce yourself "formally", and say something about your particular interests, don't forget our New Members forum:









New Members


Meet and greet the newest TTF members. -- [ One thread per new member only! ] --




www.thetolkienforum.com







arivista said:


> it can be argued the show will break some significant themes or “rules” Tolkien has established in his world.





arivista said:


> elf-human romance in Tolkien-created world cannot be introduced just willy-nilly,


Oh, for the good old days of PJ, when these rules were respected! 😉


----------



## Eljorahir (Aug 13, 2022)

Who else is afraid that the Amazon The Lord of the Rings on Prime series could disappoint Tolkien enthusiasts?​
_*“I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”*_

_Frank Herbert, Dune_


----------



## Radaghast (Aug 13, 2022)

I'm disappointed it is even being made. It exists because Jeff Bezos wanted his own "Game of Thrones". Tells me all I need to know even before any promotional stuff, which looks awful to me.


----------



## Aldarion (Aug 14, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Welcome to the forum, arivista-- if you'd like to introduce yourself "formally", and say something about your particular interests, don't forget our New Members forum:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


PJ did that in part because he was forced to "pad out" a very slim book into a _trilogy_.

Now remind me, what exactly are they doing with the Amazon series...


----------



## Ealdwyn (Aug 14, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> I'm disappointed it is even being made. It exists because Jeff Bezos wanted his own Game of Thrones. Tells me all I need to know even before any promotional stuff, which looks awful to me.


THIS


----------



## Halasían (Aug 14, 2022)

Since we're getting down to the last couple weeks before the Rings of Power Premiere, It's looking much better than I had in my head a year, or even six months ago. I don't think it will be much if any worse than what Peter Jackson did with The Lord of the Rings, and it will be considerably better than what Peter Jackson did to The Hobbit. I think it will be an enjoyable watch, and I am not "afraid" of what others think of it. It will do just fine, and there will be five seasons, and all my Tolkien books will not be "ruined" in any way.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 14, 2022)

Aldarion said:


> PJ did that in part because he was forced to "pad out" a very slim book into a _trilogy_.


"Golly -- How am I going to bulk up a story that has orcs, wargs, and dragons?

Hey! I know! Interspecies romance!"




Aldarion said:


> Now remind me, what exactly are they doing with the Amazon series...


As not even a single episode has aired yet, I can't, sorry.


----------



## Radaghast (Aug 14, 2022)

In all fairness to PJ, the love triangle was the studio's idea. Reportedly, he didn't even want to direct.



arivista said:


> I think it is very unlikely the show will be appreciated by those fans who care about integrity of the whole Tolkien’s lore. Even from the scanty information we have now, it can be argued the show will break some significant themes or “rules” Tolkien has established in his world. Even the stuff that seems OK on the surface will likely conflict with these. I will give just one example – the love of Arondir and Bronwyn. But if we can be sure it happens in some cases just from the few things we know, I find it probable it will happen in many more cases.
> 
> This will be a longer post, but I feel it is important to describe in more detail, what I mean. (And I apologize for eventual deficiencies of my English, I am not a native speaker.)
> 
> ...


Quite a first post. Welcome to the forum.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 14, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> In all fairness to PJ, the love triangle was the studio's idea. Reportedly, he didn't even want to direct.


He could have walked away. Was he that hard up for money? That's his name listed in the credit for "Director", so the final product is on him. If he was dissatisfied with the results, he could have insisted on "Alan Smithee" * up there on the screen. 😄

* Yeah, OK, I know you can't do that anymore.


----------



## Radaghast (Aug 14, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> He could have walked away. Was he that hard up for money?


Good question 😁


----------



## arivista (Aug 14, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Oh, for the good old days of PJ, when these rules were respected! 😉


I never meant to imply Peter Jackson‘s movies are flawless. I was sceptical about Hobbit movies ever since they‘ve announced them as trilogy. And I didn‘t like some aspects of LOTR movies as well (for example Faramir in TTT). As for Kili and Tauriel, their „love“ story is exceptionally bad. When Tauriel asked over dead Kili, why it hurts so much and Thranduil replied because it was real, I cringed beyond description.

However, any shortcomings of PJ‘s movies do not excuse breaking of the lore by TORP creators in my eyes. I grew to like creations of Tolkien, not of some nobodies of which I have never heard before. Stick to the master as much as possible. If they feel they can do better, let them first prove it by creating something original of equal quality, and then try to improve his stories.

But anyway, as I said before, there are some aspects of the released stuff I think already raises questions. For example the scene in trailer where Galadriel talks to Míriel over palantír. Never mind those two never met, just the presence of palantír itself is highly dubious from the lore perspective. I am pretty sure Númenorian kings never used them, not even Tar-Palantír. First, they were given as a gift to the Faithful Númenorians, and while Tar-Palantír was faithful in his heart and gave them more freedom, he didn‘t officially belong in their ranks, if I recall correctly. And he is said to spend much time in the tower of Tar-Minastir, hoping to see a glimpse of Eressëa on the horizon. He wouldn‘t have to do that if he had possesed a palantír. And if Míriel had one, it would likely fall into the hands of Ar-Pharazon after his usurpation of the throne, which would be worth mentioning by Tolkien, I think.

Other thing I find questionable is the decision of making Míriel (presumably) strong and powerful Queen Regent (they must have Strong Female Characters everywhere these days). We saw pictures of her in armour and sitting on a horse with other men, probably heading for some battle. Again, let's ignore the Regent thing, which has no support from the books. My concern is that it makes it seem less natural for her to be forced by Pharazon to marry him and yield the throne (I take for granted they will not deviate from such a crucial story point). If this strong woman had already reigned over Númenor (de facto, if not de iure), and even had led men to battle (which should create in them feelings of loyalty to her), why did she ever lose the throne? I am not saying it‘s impossible to imagine any such scenario, but at first it doesn‘t seem very natural and they will have to find some way around that. Higher chance of screwing it up. 

My impression of Tar-Palantír was always that he was a good-hearted, mild-mannered and gentle man, but not exceptionally strong warrior-leader. Not necessarily super weak, but maybe someone like Tar-Meneldur, who felt he was not up to the challenge of new shaddow rising in the East and rather gave up the throne for Aldarion's sake. I can hardly imagine Tar-Palantír marching against Sauron like Ar-Pharazon did. And I kind of felt Míriel resembled her father in this respect. Which doesn‘t mean she would be a bad Queen, just not someone able to resist proud and powerful Pharazon.

Granted, these are just my impressions and I don‘t claim I have super strong book evidence (just the basic fact that Pharazon forced Míriel to marry him). It just seemed natural inference to me. Strong Regent Míriel doesn‘t fit into the narrative as naturally, I think.​


----------



## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 14, 2022)

Interesting assessment.


----------



## Radaghast (Aug 14, 2022)

Whether or not the series will be good is one thing (and, yeah, good luck with that) but I don't know how anyone could say this will be Tolkien with:

A made-up elf and made-up human in love.
What seems to be Celeborn's body on a slab.
Galadriel is in Númenor, joining forces with Tar-Míriel.
Galadriel slashing and bashing.
Tar-Míriel in a position of power.
No one in the series with the moniker of Annatar, Lord of Gifts. Since that name doesn't appear in the Appendices, Amazon can't use it, so some other name will be used (and is it that scruffy, rugged dude, I guess? Are they going for a Randall Flagg vibe?)
Harfoots somehow being considered to be separate from Hobbits and not one of three kinds of Hobbit.
Durin's Bane???
Etc.
Yeah, it says "Based on the works of J. R. R. Tolkien" but it's missing the words "very" and "loosely".


----------



## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 14, 2022)

Certainly not perfectly accurate by any stretch-- yet my analysis waits for the sighting.


----------



## Radaghast (Aug 14, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Certainly not perfectly accurate by any stretch-- yet my analysis waits for the sighting.


Well, as I said, good luck. If you watch and like it, great. But you're not going to be able to argue that this is a representation of Tolkien's work. Absolutely not going to happen. It simply can't.


----------



## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 14, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> Well, as I said, good luck. If you watch and like it, great. But you're not going to be able to argue that this is a representation of Tolkien's work. Absolutely not going to happen. It simply can't.


I don't see any real harm in seeing what it all is myself. Obviously, I cannot analyze or compare something I have never seen. If I want to make any meaningful conclusions about it, or if anyone does, they will first need to see it themselves and conclude based on their viewing.

It is not an accurate representation of Tolkien's work and I honestly don't think many fans of his incredible literary pieces are arguing this. We are all expecting an inaccurate depiction inspired by the writings of Tolkien. Amazon does not even have rights to the lore.


----------



## Radaghast (Aug 14, 2022)

They do actually have the rights to _The Lord of the Rings_, including the Appendices, the supposed basis for their series but they're obviously not following it and inventing stuff whole cloth, and deliberately misreading the source to pursue their own agenda.


----------



## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 14, 2022)

But they do not have rights to The Silmarillion, correct?


----------



## Radaghast (Aug 14, 2022)

Correct. There is really not a whole lot about the Second Age in the work they have the rights to, but they have chosen that as the setting for their series. There is about a one-page summary plus a bit in the section "The Númenórean Kings" and the timeline which summarize the section called "Akallabêth" from _The Silmarillion_.


----------



## Eljorahir (Aug 14, 2022)

arivista said:


> while Tar-Palantír was faithful in his heart and gave them more freedom, he didn‘t officially belong in their ranks, if I recall correctly.


There's a lot in your post. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I just wanted to ask you about this one section. The question of who is within "the ranks" of The Faithful.

Just using the index in Unfinished Tales:
*"The Faithful:* Those Numenoreans who were not estranged from the Eldar and continued to reverence the Valar in the days of Tar-Ancalimon and later kings."
*"Tar-Palantir:* Twenty-fourth ruler of Numenor, who repented of the ways of the Kings and took his name in Quenya..."

I don't know Miriel's history well other than that she was daughter of Tar-Palantir and forced to marry Ar-Pharazon in a power grab.

So, with only this information I would conclude that both Miriel and Tar-Palantir would deserve to be called "The Faithful". If you disagree, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.


----------



## Halasían (Aug 15, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> Whether or not the series will be good is one thing (and, yeah, good luck with that) but I don't know how anyone could say this will be Tolkien ...


All a matter of opinion I suppose. I suffered through the mass changes PJ did to Lord of the Rings, so this will be a cakewalk.


----------



## arivista (Aug 15, 2022)

Eljorahir said:


> There's a lot in your post. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I just wanted to ask you about this one section. The question of who is within "the ranks" of The Faithful.
> 
> Just using the index in Unfinished Tales:
> *"The Faithful:* Those Numenoreans who were not estranged from the Eldar and continued to reverence the Valar in the days of Tar-Ancalimon and later kings."
> ...


A good question. I have assumed Tar-Palantír did not rank officially with the Faithful, because (1.) the descriptions seem to be in line of him having done something for them, which in my eyes implies certain level of distinction, at least outwardly, and (2.) my understanding was the leaders of the Faithful were the Lords of Andúnië (Elendil certainly was). If the king was counted as the Faithful officially, he would be the natural leader.

This is just my conjecture, but I imagined the Faithful were those who made something like "open profession of faith", not just "silent" sympathizers of the cause. I am sure everyone in Númenor knew what was in Tar-Palantír’s heart, but I kind of thought he never openly professed this and maintained, at least officially, “neutral” status as non-member.

These are just my impressions though; I may be wrong.


----------



## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 15, 2022)

arivista said:


> These are just my impressions though; I may be wrong.


_Hold Hope with thy thoughts and impressions, for indeed they may be right. Avaro naeth. (Fear not.)_


----------



## Ent (Aug 15, 2022)

Halasían said:


> It's like I've said here before, and how I approached the PJ fanfix ....
> Hope for the best and expect the worst.



Ah, Halasian - my father used to say this regularly. But he added one small part that most forget or ignore. The full phrase*:
"**Hope for the best, expect the worst, take what you get and be satisfied..!"*

It is the last part that so many refuse to grapple with.


----------



## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 15, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> *"**Hope for the best, expect the worst, take what you get and be satisfied..!"*
> 
> It is the last part that so many refuse to grapple with.


_Indeed it is - refusing to accept it, without realising it._


----------



## Radaghast (Aug 15, 2022)

Halasían said:


> All a matter of opinion I suppose. I suffered through the mass changes PJ did to Lord of the Rings, so this will be a cakewalk.


Cakewalk? Now it is my turn to laugh. I'm the last person to defend the Peej (and nothing Amazon RoP does is going to make his movies look better in my eyes) but how much did he actually _invent_? Again, RoP is using, at most a handful of pages from the Appendices and planning at least _five_ _seasons_.


----------



## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 15, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> Ah, Halasian - my father used to say this regularly. But he added one small part that most forget or ignore. The full phrase*:
> "**Hope for the best, expect the worst, take what you get and be satisfied..!"*
> 
> It is the last part that so many refuse to grapple with.


Good words. Much wisdom.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 15, 2022)

I thought the second line was "Some drink champagne, some due of thirst".


----------



## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 15, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I thought the second line was "Some drink champagne, some due of thirst".


_*Sighs*

Wrongly have thy words been woven in this..._


----------



## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 15, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> _*Sighs*
> 
> Wrongly have thy words been woven in this..._


_Wrongly indeed.._


----------



## Ealdwyn (Aug 15, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> Ah, Halasian - my father used to say this regularly. But he added one small part that most forget or ignore. The full phrase*:
> "**Hope for the best, expect the worst, take what you get and be satisfied..!"*


I disagree. We don't have to be satisfied.

We don't HAVE to like a sub-standard GoT rip-off that's not worthy to be associated with the name Tolkien. We don't HAVE to like it at all.


----------



## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 15, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I thought the second line was "Some drink champagne, some due of thirst".


I think your autocorrect struck again....
due - die


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 15, 2022)

Nah -- I was right the first time.


----------



## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 15, 2022)

It is due? Hmm.. Interesting.


----------



## Annatar Lord Of Gifts (Aug 15, 2022)

As I said earlier I'm just going to enjoy watching all the youtube content creators rip it to shreds. Will be spending my September watching the Lord Of The Rings movies in the cinema where I can catch some screenings and also be reading The History Of Middle Earth but will also enjoy seeing the Amazon series mocked and ridiculed. At this point savaging and ridiculing the series is the best thing to do because it's going to be TERRIBLE.


----------



## Eljorahir (Aug 15, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> It is due? Hmm.. Interesting.





Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Nah -- I was right the first time.


Okay. I watched that whole silly video and all I found was "die". Where's the "due"???

I must know! It's due or die time!


----------



## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 15, 2022)

Annatar Lord Of Gifts said:


> it's going to be TERRIBLE.


_Hast thou lost all Hope so swiftly? Why condemn it to a Fate of Doom when thou hast not seen its intricately woven threads of Detail?_


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 15, 2022)

Eljorahir said:


> Okay. I watched that whole silly video and all I found was "die". Where's the "due"???
> 
> I must know! It's due or die time!


I missed the Auto-Dolt error. 😅

I meant about the second line. Sorry.


----------



## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 15, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I missed the Auto-Dolt error. 😅
> 
> I meant about the second line. Sorry.


I see... And the mystery is solved. At last.


----------



## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 15, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> I see... And the mystery is solved. At last.


_Indeed. Time is only a Moment.

(Oh why....how long shall it be...?)_


----------



## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 15, 2022)

_Still the words of Mandos..._


----------



## Radaghast (Aug 15, 2022)

Annatar Lord Of Gifts said:


> As I said earlier I'm just going to enjoy watching all the youtube content creators rip it to shreds. Will be spending my September watching the Lord Of The Rings movies in the cinema where I can catch some screenings and also be reading The History Of Middle Earth but will also enjoy seeing the Amazon series mocked and ridiculed. At this point savaging and ridiculing the series is the best thing to do because it's going to be TERRIBLE.


Yeah, the ONE good thing about the RoP (and tire fires like _Obi-wan Kenobi _which, thanks to YouTube I could follow from a distance) is that it's leading to some entertaining and funny YouTube videos. Just think what there'll be when the series is released in a few weeks.


----------



## Ealdwyn (Aug 15, 2022)

I've been giving this a lot of thought, and I think my curiosity will get the better of me. I'll have to watch it, even if it's just to see how bad it is.


----------



## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 15, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> I've been giving this a lot of thought, and I think my curiosity will get the better of me. I'll have to watch it, even if it's just to see how bad it is.
> 
> View attachment 14997


No harm in a watch-- you can always stop mid-episode.


----------



## Ent (Aug 15, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> I disagree. We don't have to be satisfied.
> 
> We don't HAVE to like a sub-standard GoT rip-off that's not worthy to be associated with the name Tolkien. We don't HAVE to like it at all.



Of course you disagree.

But please note: I did not say you 'have to be' satisfied. Nor that you "had to like it". 
I simply said "take what you get and be satisfied." It is called a 'way of life'.

Here's the deal... It is what it is. (Or is going to be what it is going to be.) And it will always be precisely, and only, exactly what it is (or becomes). It has no ability to be anything else. 

The only question is how much of our precious time and energy we are going to invest beating (our heads?!) against an immovable object.


----------



## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 15, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> Of course you disagree.
> 
> But please note: I did not say you 'have to be' satisfied. Nor that you "had to like it".
> I simply said "take what you get and be satisfied." It is called a 'way of life'.
> ...


So true. Good words-- I suppose a Wise Well-aged Enting such as yourself knows these things... Thanks for sharing.


----------



## Olorgando (Aug 15, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> The only question is how much of our precious time and energy we are going to invest beating (our heads?!) against an immovable object.


I will not waste any time watching it. But that has more to do with my fundamental decision that pay TV will never see even one cent from me.
My best buddy has Amazon Prime, so I could ask him what he thinks of it once it airs. But we both know we do not see eye-to-eye on films or music, so his view might be of limited help for me in forming an opinion. Which I'm absolutely fine with.


----------



## Ent (Aug 15, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> I will not waste any time watching it. But that has more to do with my fundamental decision that pay TV will never see even one cent from me.
> My best buddy has Amazon Prime, so I could ask him what he thinks of it once it airs. But we both know we do not see eye-to-eye on films or music, so his view might be of limited help for me in forming an opinion. Which I'm absolutely fine with.



As long as we grasp that it can, and will, ever only be "our opinion", I'm a very happy Enting. 
Especially when we couple that with the truth that _arguing_ 'an opinion' is about the stupidest waste of time we can engage in. 
Trust me, I would MUCH rather (personally) go talk to a tree..!


----------



## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 15, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> Trust me, I would MUCH rather (personally) go talk to a tree..!


Could not blame you-- at least they are good listeners!


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 15, 2022)

Eljorahir said:


> that whole silly video


That "silly video", I'll have you know, is the opening title sequence from _The Twelve Chairs_, a classic Mel Brooks film.


----------



## Eljorahir (Aug 15, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> That "silly video", I'll have you know, is the opening title sequence from _The Twelve Chairs_, a classic Mel Brooks film.


I love Mel Brooks movies. I have to admit though, I don't think I've ever even heard of this title. How'd I miss it all these years?

I'm guessing this may be one of his earliest films??


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 15, 2022)

1970 -- between The Producers and Blazing Saddles.


----------



## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 15, 2022)

Never heard of that.... Sounds interesting though.


----------



## Halasían (Aug 15, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> Ah, Halasian - my father used to say this regularly. But he added one small part that most forget or ignore. The full phrase*:
> "**Hope for the best, expect the worst, take what you get and be satisfied..!"*
> 
> It is the last part that so many refuse to grapple with.


Indeed, and that I will, just as I did with the PJ Lord of the Rings.
I know that anyone's opinions on what they have rights to or not and it sucks because of this and that and it don't look like I, therefore Tolkien, imagined it will hinder my enjoyment of the show in the least.


----------



## Eljorahir (Aug 20, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> 1970 -- between The Producers and Blazing Saddles.


Just watched it...very funny!
"You bring the money. I'll bring the chairs!"


----------

