# Arwen-Selfish? Aragon--dumb? I say!



## Beleg (Sep 29, 2003)

Arwen was a very selfish women. She didn't real love Aragon. She only pretend to love him because she envisioned herself as the fair Luthien and him as Beren. While Aragon on the other hand was dumb--He should have realized that Arwen didn't love the man that was in him, but actually love the 'Berenian' elements in him. 
The sum and substance of it is that Arwen had Aragon held by strings and she puppeted him around and only married him to become like Luthien, her idol. 

Guess Aragon also felt that she wasn't totally sincere in her love for him, that's why he refused to meet Arwen when Frodo and Co were merrymaking in Rivendell and istead embarked upon an ardous mission. 

Also Arwen was a prude, she seems to bear no positive and loving emoitions towards Aragon and always maintains a laconic posture except at his death when she realizes that her Luthien dream had been shattered and she breaks down.


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## Aulë (Sep 29, 2003)

> _LotR Appendix A (v)_
> 'The next day at the hour of sunset Aragorn walked alone in we woods, and his heart was high within him; and he sang, for he was full of hope and the world was fair. And suddenly even as he sang he saw a maiden walking on a greensward among the white stems of the birches; and he halted amazed, thinking that he had strayed into a dream, or else that he had received the gift of the Elf-minstrels, who can make the things of which they sing appear before the eyes of those that listen.
> 'For Aragorn had been singing a part of the Lay of Lúthien which tells of the meeting of Lúthien and Beren in the forest of Neldoreth. And behold! there Lúthien walked before his eyes in Rivendell, clad in a mantle of silver and blue, fair as the twilight in Elven-home; her dark hair strayed in a sudden wind, and her brows were bound with gems like stars.
> 'For a moment Aragorn gazed in silence, but fearing that she would pass away and never be seen again, he called to her crying, _Tinúviel, Tinúviel!_ even as Beren had done in the Elder Days long ago.
> ...



She certainly thinks that she will marry a mortal...
Did she just marry Aragorn to become like Lúthien? To share the same fate as her? Was Aragorn just a lacky in an evil-Elvish plan?
Did she start to believe the sayings that she was like Lúthien?


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## Flammifer (Sep 29, 2003)

Haha. I think that's a bit obscure Beleg and Aulë. Or is this thread a joke in general?

Well, if not, I think that you guys are just being cynical. I believe that Tolkien's way of portraying love stories is somewhat flawed, but there are some beautiful elements. I mean, all that Cerin Amroth stuff, where they renounced both the Shadow and the Ring, and plighted their troth -- I don't believe that that could possibly be fake. Besides, Arwen's heart would have misgiven her. She was too nice and Elvish to do that. And I think Aragorn would have known if she was erm, should I use the term "faking it"?


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## Aulë (Sep 29, 2003)

Nóm, why do you have to keep on deleting your posts?
It makes the latter posts look rather odd...


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## Confusticated (Sep 29, 2003)

Aule I did not know your post was in reply to mine or I might have thought twice about it. 



> Did she just marry Aragorn to become like Lúthien? To share the same fate as her? Was Aragorn just a lacky in an evil-Elvish plan?
> Did she start to believe the sayings that she was like Lúthien?


 
Looked to me like you were just tossing out more questions for the thread.

I asked Beleg is he fails to consider that it was Aragorn who first thought Arwen _was_ Luthien, or does he have some other reason to think it was a 'Berenian' thing for Arwen but not a 'Luthienian' thing for Aragorn?

I also asked for more reasons for his opinion on why he thinks it was a Berenian thing for Arwen. These opinions... I see no reason for them. So you guys tell me what are your reasons? Am I missing something?

But to answer your questions: No I do not believe she married Aragorn to become like Luthien.

No, I do not believe it was for the purpose of sharing the same fate with Luthien. I believe she married him because she loved him.

No, I do not believe Aragorn was a lacky in an elvish plan... this 'plan' was far above the Eldar... more divine, and would probably benefit men more than elves.


I guess you take 'Though maybe my doom will be not unlike hers.' to mean that Arwen wanted to be like Luthien and so dedicated herself to Aragorn? I think these words to mean that Arwen had interest in Aragorn from the beginning, and she suspected somehow or hoped they would end up together.


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## HLGStrider (Sep 29, 2003)

Brother. .. 

Truthfully, we are not given a lot of insight into Arwen's character. We are, however, given more into Aragorn's, and I make my assessments on her based on what I know of him, his fidelity to her, and his determination. 

Arwen didn't gain anything through her relationship with Aragorn. At the very least, he gained and she sacrificed. I'm going to make an assumption that she would've been better off overseas.


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## Inderjit S (Sep 29, 2003)

Arwen didn't know Aragorn existed-so she couldn't know about her fate being similar to Luthien in that respect. She was a Peredhil, Manwe had decreed that Elrond and his children were free to choose to which fate she would belong to, it may be a reference to the choice she had in front of her. Elladan and Elrohir's choice is not know. Tolkien depicts 'Human' aspects to them in the books that could hint at their choice. Legolas is the only one who doesn't fear the Dead Men of Dunharrow for example, and is the only one who can see the Nazgul flying over them. It is said they 'delay' their choice for a while.

I really don't know what you base you cynicism on, Beleg. We get no evidence to support your remarkable statements. Arwen was a late development in the story, so we don't hear much about her. He didn't embark on a ‘arduous’ mission, to avoid Arwen he went to gather information from Elladan and Elrohir who had just come back from somewhere and Aragorn wanted to hear what they said. 

Also ,this quote from letter #244



> . In my experience feelings and decisions ripen very quickly (as measured by mere 'clock-time', which is actually not justly applicable) in periods of great stress, and especially under the expectation of imminent death. And I do not think that persons of high estate and breeding need all the petty fencing and approaches in matters of 'love'. This tale does not deal with a period of 'Courtly Love' and its pretences; but with a culture more primitive (sc. less corrupt) and nobler.


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## Rhiannon (Sep 30, 2003)

Honestly, I don't care much for Arwen. Aside from her hogging the spotlight (She looks pretty, and gets married. Eowyn looks pretty, gets married, _and_ slays the Nazgul! And still Arwen is the LOTR female that immediately comes to mind for many people. Sheesh), I think she is too submissive, not at all pro-active, and frankly rather dull. 

But I never doubted her love for Aragorn or his for her. I think Inderjit, is right, that the passage about the 'fate of Luthien' being Arwen's refers to her choice to remain in ME, not specifically to her marrying a mortal. Actually I have heard compelling arguments that after Aragorn's death she could _still_ have chosen to leave ME. As much as I would like to, I can't contribute a martyr complex to Arwen. 

I _can_ still think she has her selfish moments, though- her words to Aragorn on his death bed certainly seem so to me.


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## Confusticated (Sep 30, 2003)

The problem I see with the idea that Arwen was only refering to her Half-elven option to remain a mortal is that if not for Aragorn why should she have? It is possible, but I tend to think that she would not have stayed in Middle-earth but would have went along with her father to be with her parents in the Undying Lands. She had spent her entire life in Rivendell and in Lothlorien among the elves. Elrond was protective of her, and she did not seem to be too self-willed but too little is known about her. Arwen had been alive for a couple thousands years and there was no sign that she would be remaining among men, not until her love of Aragorn.


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## Beleg (Sep 30, 2003)

*WHATTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT*



> Haha. I think that's a bit obscure Beleg and Aulë. Or is this thread a joke in general?



I assure you, we are not being obscure, and If I started this thread here we meant it as serious.  



> Well, if not, I think that you guys are just being cynical.



And what's wrong with being cynical once in a while to find the truth?


> I believe that Tolkien's way of portraying love stories is somewhat flawed, but there are some beautiful elements.


Tolkien wasn't always honest is describing to us, the annals, happenings and stories of Middle-earth. Middle-earth was a great place, I wish I had been born there...Don't you?
 



> I mean, all that Cerin Amroth stuff, where they renounced both the Shadow and the Ring, and plighted their troth -- I don't believe that that could possibly be fake.



I never said there marriage was fake! 



> Besides, Arwen's heart would have misgiven her



No it wouldn't when she is so wrought in her fancies of acting like Luthien that she only gives her blessings to someone who was singing the lay of Lethian and was one with some anology to Beren. If she had really really listened to her heart, and not taken Aragon at his face value she would have been more true and honest.



> . She was too nice and Elvish to do that.



Lol! what a reason? So Elves are free from all mean streaks and indeciencies, Elves don't commit sins? Elves don't commit faults? 

Hoho! How do you she was too nice? Her character was developed not a single bit; the only act of niceness she did was to give the gift to Frodo, and that only too because Frodo had enabled the union of Bere--oops Aragon and her and thus enabled her to fullfill her objective of life. 



> I asked Beleg is he fails to consider that it was Aragorn who first thought Arwen was Luthien, or does he have some other reason to think it was a 'Berenian' thing for Arwen but not a 'Luthienian' thing for Aragorn?



Sure, Aragon was dumb, and didn't knew about his real feelings in this regard, being living in Rivendell he would surely have listened and learned the tale of Beren, the initially hapless Mortel who ran way with the beautiful princess bah, blah...He would have the urges of commiting a Beren like sin...and Luthien was just the right choice! 
But then again he was also dumb because he should have recongines that they both didn't love eachother, but loved the characters eachother represented. 
They loved the image of being Beren and Luthien and thus clung to it. Arwen died so early after Aragon's death because her dream shattered, in the likliness of Luthien she wanted to 'die' before Aragon, but alas it didn't come to that. 

I can't see how your point negates anything I have said yet? I also spurs the proof of Aragon's dumbness. 



> I also asked for more reasons for his opinion on why he thinks it was a Berenian thing for Arwen. These opinions... I see no reason for them. So you guys tell me what are your reasons? Am I missing something?


Yes, you are missing the whole Parrallers. 
The point from which Tolkien, an honest fellow but still prone to be opinionated, protrayed Arwen's character to us. Because she is bride of the hero of all, Aragon Telcontar, and she makes things for him and their fate was sealed in pretty romantic ideal circumstances draws in our mind a sketch of a perfect Arwen bearing a Perfect love for Aragon and viceversa. 
We fail to notice the subtle hints the fair proprieter, the *Narrater* Tolkien dropped about the real nature of their relationship. 

Aragon is singing Lay of Lethian when he sees Arwen, mind you his mind is filled with vivid visions of Luthien and the heroics of Beren, her lover. He is a young lad of twenty, ambitious and surely is yet not fully mature, prone to teenage fantasies. And when he sees someone with the likliness of Luthien of old walking in a romantic setting, it happens. 
He falls in love with the character of Luthien portrayed in Arwen, and fails to recongnise this, which is plain Dumbness.

Now Arwen would also see Beren, a young mannish lover singing songs of love in the same old romantic setting. She would be aware that she bears a likliness to Luthien, so no wonder she might fancy herself as a second Luthien and wish for herself someone of the likliness of Beren. 

And Aragon is perfect for her. Her selfishness lies in the fact that being an elf she should have had more control on her mind, and should have recongnised, or did recognise that the love she thought she bore for Aragon was infact the love she bore for the visions of Beren she saw in Aragon's character. 

So from the start their love is based upon idealistic fancies and shades of other folks characters each sees in one another. 




> No, I do not believe it was for the purpose of sharing the same fate with Luthien. I believe she married him because she loved him.



You might believe what you want to, but it all fits in.



> No, I do not believe Aragorn was a lacky in an elvish plan... this 'plan' was far above the Eldar... more devine, and would probably benefit men more than elves.



Did I say this? Where does other, higher plan comes in? We are discussing the idle fancies and wrong concepts of love that developed among two individuals, one elf one man based on the infamous precendence, One Elf, One man.



> Truthfully, we are not given a lot of insight into Arwen's character. We are, however, given more into Aragorn's, and I make my assessments on her based on what I know of him, his fidelity to her, and his determination.



All I know is that, he would have gladly played second fiddle around her.  


> Arwen didn't gain anything through her relationship with Aragorn. At the very least, he gained and she sacrificed. I'm going to make an assumption that she would've been better off overseas.



She gained the satisfaction of fullfilling her dreams, he gained a hyper sexy male. That's what I am trying to say. She was so *'wrapped'* in her fancies that she didn't care even about parting from her father and leaving immortality. And truth be told, wise elf sometimes thoguth of Immortality as a curse, and Elrond was a WISE elf, and perhaps had instilled in her the vices of immortality?  

Well he gained a pretty female. He also gained the inner satisfaction of fullfilling his motive, that of atleast winning part of the glory and fame that Beren won and acting like him....  

Better off, Overcease! Precisely...She would have found the true love of her heart, an elvish guy if she hadn't given into private allusions and fancies. 

Do I get the feeling, HLGS that you also think their was something fishy about Arwen's real feelings about Aragon?  


And as for Tolkien's saying, [Does't he seem to be preaching] well Tolkien didnt engineer the tale. He only narrated it, transmitted it to us, so he is prone to have his own fancies. 
Now we know how much he loved Luthien, so it would be no surprise if he borne some kind of love of Luthien too. And protraying the truth in this matter would have been a big blot on Arwen's personality. So dear Old Tolkien choose the middle-part, he displayed Arwen as a classic, old fashioned loving lady, while being the man of truth he was, disposed off, elusive but suggestive hints, throughtout the narrative concerning Arwen's real nature, and the real nature of her relationship with Aragon.
Well Arwen certainly *'hogged * Aragon. 



> Arwen didn't know Aragorn existed-so she couldn't know about her fate being similar to Luthien in that respect.



Oh she knew he existed allright when she saw him in Rivendell. 
And as for her fate being similar, She could 'imagine' herself in place of Luthien, or like Luthien, she craved to be like Luthien...In some aspects...and for that she needed a Mannish Lover...and Aragon was the first possible opportunity...He was a lot like Beren...
Mum and Dad Gone, Royal Linaege, courage, bravest man of age, claim to Kingship, love for romanticism, etc. 
She didn't knew how her fate would turn to be, but she certianlty knew how she wanted her fate to come out at the end...


And that's why she choose Aragon.



> really don't know what you base you cynicism on, Beleg. We get no evidence to support your remarkable statements. Arwen was a late development in the story, so we don't hear much about her. He didn't embark on a ‘arduous’ mission, to avoid Arwen he went to gather information from Elladan and Elrohir who had just come back from somewhere and Aragorn wanted to hear what they said.



Well if he really loved Arwen, why didn't he spent time with her? After all he had jut come from a near fatal escapade, and would have been inneed of an emotional consolation--He was no super human, Was he? And in such case natural instinct would be go to your lover, spend time with him/her, specially if all others are merry making, but did he do it no. Seems mighy fishy to me, even if it doesn't seem so to you. That may be because, your minds are set in one way, and they refuse to think positively about any other possibility, however plausible it might be when It presents itself...But offcourse I may be wrong..



















 

About the letter, here we are talking about Mr. Tolkien's own experiences and his own opinions about what the tale might be. And they are not facts, no they aren't because Tolkien wasn't the writer of the whole saga and I am sure Bilbo and Frodo would have written mostly truth...and besides there is another possibility which I will explore in my next post..


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## Confusticated (Sep 30, 2003)

> I can't see how your point negates anything I have said yet



Not everyone always has to try to contradict other people for the sake of doing so. You may enjoy doing so, but that does not mean me, and everyone else is trying to do that in every reply we make to you.

My point was not to negate anything you said, it was part of a question asking why you questioned the love of Arwen but not Aragorn. 

I'm not too pleased with the love at first sight stuff, but in Tolkien's world these elf and human unions were of great importance, and it is to be taken that those loves were true. 

The love of Melian the Maia and Thingol, of Idril and Tuor and for crying out loud of Beren and Luthien... an enourmous element in the mythology.This line was at the root of the defeat of evil throughout the first three ages... and is closely tied in with the power of Estel. Maybe it was doomed, all the way down to Aragorn and Arwen, to happen, but this does not mean the love was not true when it did happen. 

That Aragorn mistaking Arwen for Luthien was a part of the begining of his love for her, is not something I really doubt, and I have even started a thread long ago asking if Arwen looking like Luthien was a factor, ultimately, in the defeat of Sauron. However your assertions that:

a) Arwen was a very selfish woman.

b) Arwen did not love Aragorn

c) Arwen loved the idea of Beren, and Aragorn was dumb for not noticing this.

d) Aragorn felt Arwen was not sincere in her love for him.

e) Arwen was a prude 

Are things that cause me to believe that you are missing something vital about all of this, and I am not going to bother arguing with you about that. I only wanted to know why you directed so much negative attitude at Arwen but not Aragorn. 



> > No, I do not believe Aragorn was a lacky in an elvish plan... this 'plan' was far above the Eldar... more devine, and would probably benefit men more than elves.
> 
> 
> 
> Did I say this? Where does other, higher plan comes in?



No you did not say it. I did. In reply to Aule's question which he directed at me. Again, not everything posted in your thread is ment to be an arguement against something you said.

But since you ask - the higher purpose of these unions is to be instrumental in the defeat of evil through hope and love that never fails and through mingling elf and Ainu into the race of men.


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## Flammifer (Sep 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Beleg_
> And what's wrong with being cynical once in a while to find the truth?



I think you will find truth, just not the truth you want to find! 



> _Originally posted by Beleg_
> Tolkien wasn't always honest is describing to us, the annals, happenings and stories of Middle-earth. Middle-earth was a great place, I wish I had been born there...Don't you?



I do! I can't describe how much I wish I was born there...eek how geeky does that sound?  



> _Originally posted by Beleg_
> I never said there marriage was fake!



If the love is fake, the marriage is fake!



> _Originally posted by Beleg_
> Lol! what a reason? So Elves are free from all mean streaks and indeciencies, Elves don't commit sins? Elves don't commit faults?



Hehe. OK, maybe that wasn't a fair reason . But I've given others!


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## Inderjit S (Sep 30, 2003)

> I can't see how your point negates anything I have said yet



Well, Beleg, no point ever 'negates' anything you have ever said because Tolkien never comments on such a ridiculous theory so we cannot find a source that 'negates' anything that you say. It's like saying Gil-Galad had a tendency to walk around nude in his courts, you can just say 'But oh-tell me can you find a quote that says he didn't walk around nude in his courts'.



> And what's wrong with being cynical once in a while to find the truth



Well if you have no base for your cynicism then you cannot use cynicism to find out 'the truth'. There is no 'truth' in reading Tolkien, they are fictional characters so you cannot find anything but your own (mis)interpretation.




> Tolkien wasn't always honest is describing to us, the annals, happenings and stories of Middle-earth. Middle-earth was a great place



Tolkien wasn't being *honest* ? In what exactly? 



> No it wouldn't when she is so wrought in her fancies of acting like Luthien that she only gives her blessings to someone who was singing the lay of Lethian and was one with some anology to Beren. If she had really listened to her heart, and not taken Aragon at his face value she would have been more true and honest



She doesn't want to be the next Luthien-where did you get that from? It's not like Luthien's fate was particualry 'great', she had to leave the circles of the world for a uncertain fate. Leave Arda forever? Yeah that was the great illustrious prize that Arwen was seeking. I too agree, 'love at firsy sight' is vain and superficial. You are attracted to their pyhsical beauty, hence ugly people never fall in love at first sight, you cannot fall in love at first sight since no one can ever love another for his/her beauty but what is on the inside. But Middle-Earth is different-the fate of the charcters meant the instinctivly 'knew' that the other was made for him/her it was the way of things in M-E. You cannot critisize Aragorn and Arwen more then say Luthien and Beren. 



> How do you she was too nice? Her character was developed not a single bit; the only act of niceness she did was to give the gift to Frodo, and that only too because Frodo had enabled the union of Bere--oops Aragon and her and thus enabled her to fullfill her objective of life.



Well, since as we as you say see little of her in the book we can only judge what others say of her or what we see of her. 



> My son," said Gilraen, "your aim is high, even for the descendant of many kings. For this lady is the noblest and fairest that now walks the earth. And it is not fit that mortal should wed with the Elf-kin."





> "No indeed," said Elrond. "Your own eyes have betrayed you. But I do not speak of my daughter alone. You shall be betrothed to no man's child as yet. But as for Arwen the Fair, Lady of Imladris and of Lórien, Evenstar of her people, she is of lineage greater than yours, and she has lived in the world already so long that to her you are but as a yearling shoot beside a young birch of many summers. She is too far above you. And so, I think, it may well seem to her. But even if it were not so, and her heart turned towards you, I should still be grieved because of the doom that is laid on us."





> Bere--oops Aragon and her and thus enabled her to fullfill her objective of life





> 'And she stood then as still as a white tree, looking into the West, and at last she said: "I will cleave to you, Dúnadan, and turn from the Twilight. Yet there lies the land of my people and the long home of all my kin." She loved her father dearly.





> 'The Third Age ended thus in victory and hope; and yet grievous among the sorrows of that Age was the parting of Elrond and Arwen, for they were sundered by the Sea and by a doom beyond the end of the world





> But Arwen became as a mortal woman, and yet it was not her lot to die until all that she had gained was lost





> "Lady Undómiel," said Aragorn, "the hour is indeed hard, yet it was made even in that day when we met under the white birches in the garden of Elrond where none now walk. And on the hill of Cerin Amroth when we forsook both the Shadow and the Twilight this doom we accepted. Take counsel with yourself, beloved, and ask whether you would indeed have the wait until I wither and rail from my high seat unmanned and witless. Nay, lady, I am the last of the Númenoreans and the latest King of the Elder Days; and to me has been given not only a span thrice that of Men of Middle-earth, but also the grace to go at my will, and give back the gift. Now, therefore, I will sleep.





> Sure, Aragon was dumb, and didn't knew about his real feelings in this regard, being living in Rivendell he would surely have listened and learned the tale of Beren, the initially hapless Mortel who ran way with the beautiful princess bah, blah...He would have the urges of commiting a Beren like sin...and Luthien was just the right choice!



I really don't see how you can say Beren and or Luthien were sinful. He didn't know that he was Lord of the Dunedain until a short time before he met arwen, so he couldn't reflect on the possibility of such a thing happening and he knew nothing of Arwen.



> Arwen died so early after Aragon's death because her dream shattered, in the likliness of Luthien she wanted to 'die' before Aragon, but alas it didn't come to that.





> 'Arwen knew well what he intended, and long had foreseen it; nonetheless she was overborne by her grief





> But I say to you, King of the Númenoreans, not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive.





> The point from which Tolkien, an honest fellow but still prone to be opinionated, protrayed Arwen's character to us. Because she is bride of the hero of all, Aragon Telcontar, and she makes things for him and their fate was sealed in pretty romantic ideal circumstances draws in our mind a sketch of a perfect Arwen bearing a Perfect love for Aragon and viceversa.



Ever heard of the word 'paradox' Beleg? Well that pretty much sums up your post. So Tolkien was trying to preserve the dignity of Aragorn by presenting Arwen and Aragorn as a perfect couple, yet he was sublty hinting that they were not in love but were acting on impulsive feelings for other people and trying to emulate their own legends in a partial rendering of the story of Beren and Luthien? Is Galaladirel 'dumb' too-she seems to support their marriage. The 'narrarator' here is Barahir, and Arwen and Aragorns parting words must have been well known in Gondor, since they survived till his time, and not been subject to some kind of propagandist editting to convey a healthier relationship with their much revered (former) King and Queen. 



> is a young lad of twenty, ambitious and surely is yet not fully mature, prone to teenage fantasies





> 'But when Estel was only twenty years of age, it chanced that he returned to Rivendell after great deeds in the company of the sons of Elrond; and Elrond looked at him and was pleased, for he saw that he was fair and noble and was early come to manhood, though he would yet become greater in body and in mind.






> She would be aware that she bears a likliness to Luthien, so no wonder she might fancy herself as a second Luthien and wish for herself someone of the likliness of Beren.



She doesn't fancy herself as a new Luthien. Others make that comparison.



> ' "So many have said," she answered gravely. "Yet her name is not mine






> And when he sees someone with the likliness of Luthien of old walking in a romantic setting, it happens.



'It' happens-her dramatic plan to marry this young gentlemen and for him to marry this voluptious Elven lady? The sinners! I think that what does happen is they fall in love, or realise that their fates are intwined.



> She was little changed, for the mortal years had passed her by, yet her face was more grave, and her laughter now seldom was heard.


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## Inderjit S (Sep 30, 2003)

> She gained the satisfaction of fullfilling her dreams, he gained a hyper sexy male



I really have no idea as to what 'hyper sexy' means (She was a bit wild in bed?) but I think Arwen was a FEMALE. I don't know what dreams she wanted to fulfill? Unless she hated her father and didn't want to go to Aman and so badly wanted to suffer a cruel fate. Maybe.



> Well he gained a pretty female. He also gained the inner satisfaction of fullfilling his motive, that of atleast winning part of the glory and fame that Beren won and acting like him....



When does he 'act like Beren' exactly?



> She would have found the true love of her heart, an elvish guy if she hadn't given into private allusions and fancies.



Why does her true love have to be a Elf? 



> And as for Tolkien's saying, [Does't he seem to be preaching] well Tolkien didnt engineer the tale. He only narrated it, transmitted it to us, so he is prone to have his own fancies



Don't know about your private fancies but Tolkien did engineer the tale. 



> Royal Linaege, courage, bravest man of age, claim to Kingship



Beren wasn't of royal lineage or heir to any crown.



> Well if he really loved Arwen, why didn't he spent time with her? After all he had jut come from a near fatal escapade, and would have been inneed of an emotional consolation--He was no super human, Was he? And in such case natural instinct would be go to your lover, spend time with him/her, specially if all others are merry making, but did he do it no. Seems mighy fishy to me, even if it doesn't seem so to you. That may be because, your minds are set in one way, and they refuse to think positively about any other possibility, however plausible it might be when It presents itself.



Please don't put this down to some kind of stroke of genius on your part whilst the rest of us are wrapped in some kind of happy, Arwen and Aragonr (oh, they're soooo in love!) fantasy. Or to Tolkiens arhaic views on love. Why didn't he spend his time with her? Actually he did spend time with her. Note the scene in the Hall of Fire, where he is talking to her.

His life in the wild was because he was destined to be/do that-and thus he would become the great man he was.



> Then bitter will my days be, and I will walk in the wild alone," said Aragorn.





> 'Then Aragorn took leave lovingly of Elrond; and the next day he said farewell to his mother, and to the house of Elrond, and to Arwen, and he went out into the wild. For nearly thirty years he laboured in the cause against Sauron; and he became a friend of Gandalf the Wise, from whom he gained much wisdom. With him he made many perilous journeys, but as the years wore on he went more often alone. His ways were hard and long, and he became somewhat grim to look upon, unless he chanced to smile; and yet he seemed to Men worthy of honour, as a king that is in exile, when he did not hide his true shape. For he went in many guises, and won renown under many names. He rode in the host of the Rohirrim, and fought for the Lord of Gondor by land and by sea; and then in the hour of victory he passed out of the knowledge of Men of the West, and went alone far into the East and deep into the South, exploring the hearts of Men, both evil and good, and uncovering the plots and devices of the servants of Sauron.





> But Aragorn was grown to full stature of body and mind,



Oh and Bilbo/Frodo didn't write the story of Aragorn and Arwen.


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## Confusticated (Sep 30, 2003)

The silmaril recovery, pity of Mandos, the voyage of Earendil the half-elven son of Tuor who was sent to Gondolin by Ulmo, and at whose prayer Morgoth was defeated, Aragorn and Arwen, the phial of Galadriel... the foundations of the defeat of evil were based on sins and false love? Everlasting hope was founded on deception or make-believe?

It seems like Beleg is going to preach Morgothism. I don't believe he really believes all that he is saying here. Do you, Beleg?


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## HLGStrider (Oct 1, 2003)

> Do I get the feeling, HLGS that you also think their was something fishy about Arwen's real feelings about Aragon?


you're good at reading things into things that aren't there.



> Gil-Galad had a tendency to walk around nude in his courts,



AH HA! I always suspected as much.



> I too agree, 'love at firsy sight' is vain and superficial



In real life, yes, but in a fairy tale situation it is common. . .or in any old story. It's also fitting. 



> I really don't see how you can say Beren and or Luthien were sinful.



I'd say they were the exact opposite. Beren went out of his way to prove himself worthy and gain her hand. Luthien did run away from home, but this is as close to sinning as we get there.


I think everyone is hard on Arwen. I think it is because of the feminist ideal of this century. I'm not a feminist. Ideally I want to be a housewife, and I emphasize totally with both Arwen and Eowyn in different ways. I emphasize with Eowyn in that I have for a long time loved a man who doesn't love me. I emphasize with Arwen in that I am perfectly willing to wait home for him forever and stay at home once he comes around and wants me back.

I think there is something very romantic in Arwen waiting through all those years, laboring in silence on a gift for him, and I would love to emulate her.

To draw from another personal situation, the boy I love is entering the military this year, and there is something that pulls at the heart when that happens. It's a prolonged seperation. A loved one in danger. I'm NOT going to compare myself to Arwen, but it makes me understand her a lot more. . .And ADMIRE HER.


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## Rhiannon (Oct 1, 2003)

> I think everyone is hard on Arwen.



Quite possibly. 

I think she's _admirable_...Just dull. And it isn't her fault that her story takes place before and after the events of LOTR.


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## King Aragorn (Oct 1, 2003)

I like Aragorn. I don't think that any of his decisions were dumb. But, that's just my opinion. Everybody can think what they want.


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## Confusticated (Sep 14, 2010)

When I seen this thread title I said to myself, don't tell me that is one of mine!

Glad I took the side of hope! ;*)

Do miss discussions with those guys though.


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## Eledhwen (Oct 6, 2010)

I missed this thread first time round.

One thing occurred to me when I read it; the Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth; which is a lengthy discourse on the subject of Elf/Human love - albeit unfulfilled. It calls to mind the fact that Eldar memory is as perfect as the 'now'; which is why, once in love, an elf will always feel that way.

'Andreth adaneth, the life and love of the Eldar dwells much in memory; and we (if not ye) would rather have a memory that is fair but unfinished than one that goes on to a grievous end. Now he will ever remember thee in the sun of morning, and that last evening by the water of Aeluin in which he saw they face mirrored with a star caught in thy hair -- ever, until the North-wind brings the night of his flame.'

If Arwen was in any way insincere or deluded (and she's no teenager!); it would, I think, be unbearable for her to even be in Aragorn's company, let alone be his wife.


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