# Maiar vs Eldar



## EL GALLO (Apr 15, 2003)

What would happen if they decided to go in a war? Who would win? By thye way, by Maiar I mean all of them including Sauron, Eonwe, Melian, Balrogs, etc.


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## Aulë (Apr 15, 2003)

What's with all these hypothetical battles?

And this is an obvious one. The Mair would destroy the Eldar with ease.
No explaination needed.


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## EL GALLO (Apr 15, 2003)

I don't think so. Many Eldar have killed mair and if Fingolfin was able to wound Morgoth seven times then I think that it will be easy for elves like him to get rid of some of the most powerful maiar.


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## Snaga (Apr 15, 2003)

Er... no. El Gallo.. you're wrong.

Tell me when one of the Eldar have killed a Maia and survived, please?


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## EL GALLO (Apr 15, 2003)

Some elves killed Balrogs, yeah, I know that they didn't survived but I think that Ingwe, Feanor, Fingolfin or other great elves wouldnt have problems slaying Maiar.


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## Aulë (Apr 15, 2003)

There are only a few great Elves, yet there are many Maia. 
And sure, Elves can kill Balrogs, but none would get close to killing the more powerful such as Sauron or Ossë.


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 15, 2003)

There are some among the Eldar who are on Maia level (Glorfindel, for example), and there are surely some Maiar who are quite "weak" and almost on the same level as "ordinary" Elves. So I wouldn't exactly rule out the possibility of a powerful Elf killing a not-so-powerful Maia.


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## YayGollum (Apr 15, 2003)

Wouldn't it depend on the numbers? I would think that if there were more Maiar type things, they'd win. If things were equal, they'd probably still win. If the boring elves had more, they might have a chance. I still wouldn't doubt that the Maiar thingys would win, though. It's always seemed to me to be that there weren't twenty-seven thousand achingly and superly powerful type elves.


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## BlackCaptain (Apr 15, 2003)

The Maia without a doubt. 

Maia don't die. It would be literally impossible, unless they demoralize the Maia so badly that they just leave for some reason.


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## Confusticated (Apr 15, 2003)

For elves to have a chance there would have to be 1) Maiar out-numbered by elves 2) Maiar less mighty than Sauron (such as balrogs) 3) incarnated Maiar (such as Melian and balrogs)


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## Feanorian (Apr 15, 2003)

Maiar cannot be killed but they can be vanquished to a degree. I agree with the point brought on earlier that if Melkor could be wounded several times by one of the Eldar then the elves could possibly of won. I think that if the Edain fought as well with the Eldar they could win. Think about these generals, Feanor, Turin, Hurin, Tuor, Beren, Glorfindel, Fingolfin, and Etchelion. I think thats the only way they could win and of course that would require all of them to be revived somehow....


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## Eledhwen (Apr 16, 2003)

What are the numbers here? Anyone know how many maiar there were?


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## Inderjit S (Apr 16, 2003)

There are no definitive figures for Maia, though I would imagine they would be in their thousands, rather then the hundereds of thousands of Elves that may have existed. 

The only definitive figure I could give you are that there were 7 or less Balrogs


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## Zale (Apr 16, 2003)

You all seemed to have forgotten something: the Maiar have no physical form unless they so choose (and that can be cast aside, like clothes); could they then be harmed by the Eldar?
Powerful Elves: the power of Galadriel stayed all of Sauron's might (armies, magic & all) around the whole of Lothlórien.


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## Eledhwen (Apr 17, 2003)

It is expensive to re-clothe a slain Maia. Sauron took longer each time. Gandalf's restoration was almost immediate, but he was unlikely to have had to provide for himself on that occasion.

If war broke out between Maiar and Eldar, then I suspect that the Maiar ability to re-clothe would depend on the spiritual energy expended leading up to their slaying. If Sauron and Gandalf are representative, then an evil spirit will take longer to reclothe than a good spirit (though maybe only if the good spirit has a specific errand). If this is so, then given the numbers, the Elves could win a short war, but would be storing up trouble for themselves for the future.

Having said all that, I don't believe many Maiar (proportionally) dwelt in ME (few Balrogs remained after the sack of Gondolin). Maybe you are suggesting war in the heavenlies?


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## Lantarion (Apr 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Eledhwen_
> If war broke out between Maiar and Eldar...


Hehe, I'm just being nitpicky and hypothetical here, but if a war did break out between the two races I think the Maiar would have the go(o)d sense to withdraw from Arda.


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## Zale (Apr 17, 2003)

Eledhwen, Gandalf had only been slain the once (by the Balrog). Sauron was 'killed' at least twice: once in the drowning of Númenor, and once by Húan the hound (I think).


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## EL GALLO (Apr 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zale _
> * and once by Húan the hound (I think). *


I don't think so. Luthien gave him to choices: to give her the island or to be killed, and he chose to give her the island.


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## Aulë (Apr 20, 2003)

Huan killed Sauron's body, but not his spirit. Sauron had to foresake his body to escape from Huan's death grip.


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## Eledhwen (Apr 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lantarion _
> *Hehe, I'm just being nitpicky and hypothetical here, but if a war did break out between the two races I think the Maiar would have the go(o)d sense to withdraw from Arda.  *


I don't mind nitpicky and hypothetical, I agree with you. They'd just roll their eyes and take the next cloud home (leaving the Elves to deal with the discarded bodies). End of story. Boring! Wouldn't happen.


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## Zale (Apr 21, 2003)

Obviously it was only Sauron's 'body' that was killed by Húan, otherwise he wouldn't have been in LotR, and it would never have happened.
Plus, the Valar would certainly have sent Gandalf back to ME as soon as possible; I don't think that was the case with Sauron.


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## Trick81 (Sep 30, 2021)

EL GALLO said:


> What would happen if they decided to go in a war? Who would win? By thye way, by Maiar I mean all of them including Sauron, Eonwe, Melian, Balrogs, etc.


The Maiar are primordial spirits, they only take on physical bodies when they are going to interact with mortals or immortals such as elves in Middle Earth, when they do their powers arent the same as when they are in their normal forms aren’t they? We see that with the Istari who agreed to limit their powers while in Middle Earth, the Balrogs are essentially corrupted spirits of Maiar given physical form I don’t think they are as powerful as they were before they went over to Melkor because of that corruption. While the Eldar are immortal they can die and their spirits be given new physical forms through Tolkien’s version of the afterlife the Maiar are purely immortal as far as I know unless the Valar or Iluvatar are able to truly end them which wouldn’t be their way. I’m thinking that a Maiar unfettered by a physical form which could be destroyed would definitely win against any of the greater Eldar. That’s my thoughts though, I admit I probably don’t know as much as many others here.


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 1, 2021)

Trick81 said:


> The Maiar are primordial spirits, they only take on physical bodies when they are going to interact with mortals or immortals such as elves in Middle Earth,



Tolkien just calls them "Incarnates" as they were designed to have physical bodies (compared to the Ainur, who weren't).



Trick81 said:


> when they do their powers arent the same as when they are in their normal forms aren’t they? We see that with the Istari who agreed to limit their powers while in Middle Earth, the Balrogs are essentially corrupted spirits of Maiar given physical form I don’t think they are as powerful as they were before they went over to Melkor because of that corruption. While the Eldar are immortal they can die and their spirits be given new physical forms through Tolkien’s version of the afterlife the Maiar are purely immortal as far as I know unless the Valar or Iluvatar are able to truly end them which wouldn’t be their way. I’m thinking that a Maiar unfettered by a physical form which could be destroyed would definitely win against any of the greater Eldar. That’s my thoughts though, I admit I probably don’t know as much as many others here.


I'd imagine this is true. While without a physical body the Maiar cannot be slain but apparently can still interact with the physical world via manipulation of the elements.


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