# grammar sucks!



## j0n4th4n (Mar 8, 2003)

i like writing stories and poems but i always seem to get bogged down with grammar and trying to get it correct. the problems occur when i feel i know something is wrong, but i dont know what, and i try changing the grammar round and it still seems wrong; or else i cant decide on which arrangement is best (this is when their right) but cant decide what i want to 'mean'
example: the boy went home
the boy went, home

anyone got any helpful tips etc?


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## Eledhwen (Mar 8, 2003)

Good grammar causes the intended meaning of a piece of writing to pass successfully from the author to the reader.

There are two sorts of bad grammar: 

1. That which causes ambiguity where none is intended

2. Grammar for grammar's sake - where 'sticking to the rules' robs a piece of its literary beauty and/or power. 

In another thread I was reading about Tolkien's habit of suddenly changing to the present-tense in mid-sentence. This device was used frequently in the past and is used in the Bible. Its effect is to bring immediacy to the written work in the mind of the reader. Unfortunately, many 'teachers' consider it to be 'bad grammar'.

Your example, Jonathan, is one of punctuation. Read your work out loud to yourself. If you hear a pause, even a tiny one, you might need a comma or a full stop there.

I used two commas in my last sentence to show pauses. I put the commas in the place which would leave the sentence still making sense, if the words between the commas were removed.

I hope this helps. Grammar is harder to explain than to do, in my opinion!


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## Rangerdave (Mar 8, 2003)

To use the example you posted "The boy went home" how you write this depends greatly on the effect you wish to create.

For example
Direct statement of fact: The boy went home.
Slight drama: The boy went--Home.
Heavy drama: The boy went: went home.
Questioning: The boy went? Home?
Mystery: The boy went. I know not where, home I assume.

But for real effect, I suggest you try to avoid short declarative statements unless you are trying to convey urgency. It never hurts to use a tad bit of purple prose in your writings.

_Then, at long last, his labors complete; the boy slipped away unseen. Where he went or by one road no one can say. But as for me, my hope is that he found his way--back to his home._



RD


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## Celebithil (Mar 8, 2003)

Grammar does indeed suck. I enjoy writing but have trouble getting the idea from my brain to my hand and then making sure the grammar is correct is even worse.


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## Eledhwen (Mar 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rangerdave _
> *Then, at long last, his labors complete; the boy slipped away unseen. Where he went or by one road no one can say. But as for me, my hope is that he found his way--back to his home.*


Now that's writing!


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## Thorin (Mar 9, 2003)

Grammar may 'suck' on occasion. I tell you though, that some people who claim to speak the English language are posting some awfully hard to read posts. They could use a few more grammar lessons.

I chuckle when I think of a Dennis the Menace cartoon strip I read.
"Dennis, watch your grammar!"
"How can I? Gramma's not here!"

I will say that for a few posters here on this forum: "Gramma is DEFINITELY not here!"


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## Jon (Mar 9, 2003)

thanks, for: your help; everyone!   


eledhwen - yes, i think my main problem is bad punctuation. i dont mind so much `bad grammar`.

can you give me an example of where tolkien swiches tenses? i cant think of any


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## Talierin (Mar 9, 2003)

Jon / j0n4th4n, check your PMs please... you can reach your inbox at the bottom of the main page, or by clicking on UserCP at the top of any page.


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## Halasían (Mar 18, 2003)

Grammer can inhibit the free flow of a story sometimes. What i do alot is to pen the words as they come to me, then go back and proofread it, making grammatical corrections and adjustments to enhance the feel of what I am trying to put forth. Reading it aloud to myself helps me find where the pauses are, and therefore helps in punctuation. The end product may not be perfect in grammer, but it will be quite readable and withthe proper feeling. One thing I can suggest is the basics, like capitalization of the first letter of a sentence and a period at the end of a sentence, and to add commas where a pause would be of you were reading it aloud.


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## BlackCaptain (Mar 18, 2003)

It all depends on what perspective and attitude you wana take... Gramer doesnt suck, it should make your writing all the better


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## HLGStrider (Mar 18, 2003)

I personally love grammar. I always have. Occasionally I'll make some errors. For instance I use tooken when the proper verb is taken. . . that's only in speach, not in writing, however.

I think for the sake of clarity you need to use proper gramar. . .with one or two exceptions. With modern English, for instance, it is hard to follow "Don't end a sentence with a preposition." A preposition is not a good thing to end a sentence with 

And truly it is often awkward to end with a prep, but other times it is hard to avoid and you sound more awkward if you rearrange to end with something else.


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## HLGStrider (Mar 10, 2005)

I thought I'd bring this up again with something you hear a lot from teachers of writing:

It is okay to break the rules, but you have to have a good reason.

Don't break rules because you are being careless or don't know any better. Break them intentionally because it sounds better or is better. 

Don't change tenses in a sentence unless you want it that way for dramatic effect.

Also, gramar is liquid. A language can change through common use. Some of the ways we talk now where once improper. However, I want it to change as slowly as possible because I think English is a beautiful language and should be perserved. We can add words to it occasionally, but I hate to see words fall out of use and slip away. I hate to see gramar neglected.


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## Hammersmith (Mar 10, 2005)

Rangerdave said:


> Mystery: The boy went. I know not where, home I assume.


I'd personally think about replacing that comma with a semi colon, but I have an unhealthy obsession with that particular punctuation.

As for grammar, the only rule I dislike is fragmenatation. Fragments can be and are tremendously useful. Jesus wept. Call me Ishmael. Sometimes. Can be overused. Like now. Sorry. I'll go now.


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## Zale (Mar 11, 2005)

Fragments are too easy to overuse! I tend to find them creeping in when I'm putting a character's thoughts directly down. I tend rather to do the opposite and realise that I have a sentence a paragraph long. Too circumlocutious for my own good.

As far as grammar's concerned, the only problem I have with it is when other people misuse it! When I write, things go straight down on the page and usually require only a little rearranging to get from thought to correct written sentence. Good grammar IS flexible and lends a nice sense of fluidity to prose. Tolkien and Austen are excellent examples of this: how a language should be used!


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## Barliman Butterbur (Mar 11, 2005)

j0n4th4n said:


> i like writing stories and poems but i always seem to get bogged down with grammar and trying to get it correct. the problems occur when i feel i know something is wrong, but i dont know what, and i try changing the grammar round and it still seems wrong; or else i cant decide on which arrangement is best (this is when their right) but cant decide what i want to 'mean'
> example: the boy went home
> the boy went, home
> 
> anyone got any helpful tips etc?



Begin by writing as you speak. Eventually you will develop a writing style from that, which will be more complex and involved. We all learned grammar automatically when we learned to speak — assuming we learned to speak emulating those who spoke properly!

Say what you want to write out loud. If you hear yourself pausing, put in a comma. If you hear yourself stop, put in a period. Does your voice rise at the end of a sentence? Put in a question mark. Frankly I think you're going to be fine. You're going to paralyze yourself if you keep grammar in front of you as you write!

Another tip: do a lot of reading, especially of arts, sciences and novels, and note how the grammar is handled. Note the way sentences and paragraphs are structured. Note the way punctuation is handled. Note how the author gets an effect. You can learn a lot about both technique and style that way! 

Barley


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## HLGStrider (Mar 11, 2005)

Zale said:


> Fragments are too easy to overuse! I tend to find them creeping in when I'm putting a character's thoughts directly down. I tend rather to do the opposite and realise that I have a sentence a paragraph long. Too circumlocutious for my own good.
> 
> As far as grammar's concerned, the only problem I have with it is when other people misuse it! When I write, things go straight down on the page and usually require only a little rearranging to get from thought to correct written sentence. Good grammar IS flexible and lends a nice sense of fluidity to prose. Tolkien and Austen are excellent examples of this: how a language should be used!


 
My problems used to be run ons. I find that I over use commas for hanging clauses and such.

I am always adding a last minute phrase attached by a comma at the begining or end of sentences. I can't think well enough when this tired to do one for you so you'll have have to try and figure out what I mean. . .Wait, let me find one in my novel. . .

_Prince Leeren was to be the first crown prince to wed one of common blood, a decision applauded by some and denounced by others._

_The sun rose again, spreading its pink light over the island. _

_She kissed his cheek, half wishing that he'd awake and talk with her, half unsure what to say after so much had happened._

_She nestled lovingly against his chest, hiding herself from the morning light._

All those are in a two page span and I just opened the manuscript at random.

See what I mean? I know how to restructure them, but I like them as they are, and I dont' feel it is worth it.


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## Hammersmith (Mar 12, 2005)

Those all look perfectly reasonable to me. Perhaps if the pattern is repeated too often it could get old quickly. If you're desperate to get rid of some of them, just snap them in half like this:

_Prince Leeren was to be the first crown prince to wed one of common blood. The decision was applauded by some and denounced by others._

It doesn't sound as elegant as the original, but it does the job and gets rid of one of the clause unwieldy sentences. Of course, although you've noticed and been self critical of a pattern, in my experience it isn't one that would be too noticeable. Something like overuse of fragments and long sentences, or undue repetition would be much more of a no-no.


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## Zale (Mar 12, 2005)

There's nothing wrong with two-clause sentences! Mine run into four or five if I let them. I would find an example but I'm feverishly busy packing  Maybe when I get home.


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