# Elves - 3 kinds or more?



## Ithrynluin (Dec 3, 2002)

This has been bothering me for some time. At the back of the Silmarillion, there is a chart called "The Sundering of the Elves and some of the names given to their divisions."

There, The Quendi (the Elves) are divided into the Eldar (Elves of the Great Journey) and the Avari (those who refused the Great Journey).
But then ONLY the Eldar are further divided into the the 3 kinds of Elves (Vanyarin, Noldorin, Telerin) but the Avari are not. I always thought that all the Elves are divided into the three "types."
Aren't these names (Vanyar, Noldor, Teleri) labels of the characterists that a certain group possesses? (Vanyar - fair,wise..; Noldor - marvellous craftsmen; Teleri - mariners, love the sea...). Am I mistaken? 

Are the Avari "all the same" then? I would assume they also differ from each other, that they have different personalities and skills (much like those three types have).


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## YayGollum (Dec 3, 2002)

I don't know. I'm not usually into elves very much. The only other type that I can think of is the Nandor. I think that just their leader went to that stinky Valinor place with Orome, he came back, they were all following Orome, they stopped at the east side of the Misty Mountains, went all over the place, some ended up with those silver elves, they got to be called green elves later on. They were superly cool. Something about them not liking violence, being the best kind of elves at working with plants and animals. They were probably the dudes who woke the Ents up. I don't know.


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## Maedhros (Dec 3, 2002)

That is interesting, but in the War of the Jewels, Quendi and Eldar, where it tells the story of when the Elves first awake, they at that time had three leaders, and each one chose their followers, so in the very beginning the division was 3.


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## Confusticated (Dec 3, 2002)

I have always taken what I read to mean that the avari were of the three kindreds. Maybe some of each.


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## Ithrynluin (Dec 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Nóm _
> *I have always taken what I read to mean that the avari were of the three kindreds. Maybe some of each. *



Like I already said, this is my thought exactly! I thought the only difference between the Eldar and the Avari is that the former have undertaken the Great Journey, while the latter haven't.

But then again, it does say in that same chart that ALL the Vanyar and the Noldor went to Aman...


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## Confusticated (Dec 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *Like I already said, this is my thought exactly! I thought the only difference between the Eldar and the Avari is that the former have undertaken the Great Journey, while the latter haven't.
> 
> But then again, it does say in that same chart that ALL the Vanyar and the Noldor went to Aman... *


I'll have to see this chart, that doesn't sound correct.

In fact, not only does it not say which kindred the avari are from, but it doesn't say exactly which kindreds the Umanyar are, though it does say that they were mostly teleri which is a millimeter short of stating outright that some where Noldor and/or Vanyar.
That alone about the Umanyar proves that not all of the Vanyar and Noldor made it to Aman.


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## Manwë Súlimo (Dec 3, 2002)

Well I would say that it may not be known if the Avari are differentiated into groups or not. For the Avari lived in the East and little to nothing is known about the east because all of our knowledge of the Elder Days comes from the elves that made the Great March. And unless some of those elves went back into the east and brought tidings of the Avari we probably will never know.


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## morello13 (Dec 5, 2002)

about the avari, were all of them turned into orcs or did some stay normal?
also it said something to the effets of, and they parted fomr their brehtren never to see them again until a distant age, has this age occured in toilkien writings and where?


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## gate7ole (Dec 5, 2002)

From the War of the Jewels:

Minyar (Vanyar) 14: Avari 0 Eldar 14
Tatyar (Noldor) 56: Avari 28 Eldar 28
Nelyar (Teleri) 74: Avari 28 Eldar 46 
>Amanyar Teleti 20, Sindar and Nandor 26

It shows that from the beginning the sundering was in three groups. All the Vanyar followed Orome, while from the other clans only a part followed him. That means that the Avari are part Noldor and part Teleri. But after 7000 years of sundering, I don't think that they will have much in common.


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## Ithrynluin (Dec 5, 2002)

Yes, I checked The War of the Jewels as well. I think it says that 2/3 of the Nelyar became the Teleri. It also says (of the Vanyarin elves) that "Minyar" was their own name for themselves and that the Noldor started calling them "Vanyar".


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## morello13 (Dec 5, 2002)

are those the actual numbers. any clue about my other question?


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## Ithrynluin (Dec 5, 2002)

those are the numbers of the elves that AWOKE at Cuivienen. There were 144 elves all together, 72 couples...


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## gate7ole (Dec 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by morello13 _
> *also it said something to the effets of, and they parted fomr their brehtren never to see them again until a distant age, has this age occured in toilkien writings and where? *


No, the distant age had not come by the time of the Lord of the Rings. Still most Avari lingered in the eastern lands, not communicating with any other race. (They probably become Lingerers). My best thought of this distant age is the time of the Faring Forth (the expedition of the elves of Tol Eressea to ME to bring back their kin).


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## Gil-Galad (Dec 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Nóm _
> *I have always taken what I read to mean that the avari were of the three kindreds. Maybe some of each. *


I agree with you. The elves from the two kindreds mixed themselves and after a long period they all were part of the avari,not avari divided into different kindreds.


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## Confusticated (Dec 10, 2002)

Nay, what gate7ole posts shows that the Avari were only of Noldor and Teleri, no Vanyar.


Gil-Galad, your PM box is full!! Will you delete some?


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