# are wizards men? or something else?



## noor (Dec 10, 2001)

Reading through all of these philosophical posts, a question came to my mind: what race are wizards? I always pictured them as men but with, I don't know, magic powers. But maybe they're their own race? Has anyone else given this any thought?


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## Mr. Underhill (Dec 10, 2001)

Wizards are Maia sent to Middle-Earth by the Valar early in the Third Age when it became apparent that Sauron was again taking shape. They were to rally the free peoples and aid in their defense against him. They are also known as the Istari. They are discussed in the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales (and probably other books as well) if you'd like to know more.


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## Beorn (Dec 10, 2001)

*Mike dons educated voice, not unlike that of Thorin*

The five Wizards in Middle-eart were called Istari. Their names were Gandalf, Radagast, Saruman, Pallando, and Ni!....Well not really...I'm not sure what the last guy's name is....

Anyway, the Istari were five Maiar sent by the Valar to help stir up rebellion against Sauron.


EDIT: The fifth guy's name was Alatar


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## Rosie Cotton (Dec 10, 2001)

Welcome to the forum noor!  Mr. U pretty much covered it all.... but since you _probably_ haven't read The Silmarillion (sorry if you have, I'm just guessing from your question that you haven't) you're probably quite confused by the Tolkien vocab in there. The valar are like gods, who were created by Eru Illuvatar (I guess that you could say he's the god of the gods, the ultimate creator). The maia (including the wizards, the balrog, and Sauron) are like angels. They can take any form when on Arda (Earth). The Istari (wizards) have the form of old men. I might be a little off in my info there (I've only read The Silmarillion once), if I am, please don't hesitate to correct me. Anyway I hope that helped the other explenation make a little more sense to you!


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## Lantarion (Dec 11, 2001)

Welcome, Noor! 
Well, they seem to have covered the answer pretty well! But I understand that Tolkien's point of view on 'wizards' is different from other fantasy writers: in most stories Wizards are wise, both young and old men, who practice differing volumes of magic. In LotR, The Wizards are the Istari, the five demi-gods (Maiar) sent to sort M-e out. This is a bit confusing, but a good idea.


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## noor (Dec 11, 2001)

Thanks everyone for clearing this up for me. I guess rather than read LOTR for the fifteenth time over my winter break, I'd better read the Silmarillion. Or maybe I'll read the Silmarillion, and then THEN read LOTR again...


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## Grond (Dec 11, 2001)

*Grond just loves stirring the pot!*

And once again, Grond wades in.... The Istari are indeed Maiar who are of the Ainur; however!!! they were housed in a man's body. They could be killed (aka Gandalf) but sent back. You see, the Vala and Maia are spirits. Much as Melian housed herself in a beautiful elfin form (yes I know is should be elven but elfin looks so much better) the Istari vessel in our world was that of a man. I will get my book out and give you the descriptions.

By the way, at this stage in this thread, I am posting an opinion. I don't know this necessarily from JRRT's writings...... yet! I will be looking it up tonight and will give further info.


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## Tuor (Dec 12, 2001)

Eru(Iluvatar) is God. capitol G, one God. The Valar are Arch-Angels, the Maiar are lesser Angels.

Eru(Iluvatar) is God. capitol G, one God. The Valar are Arch-Angels, the Maiar are lesser Angels. I know this because in the Silmarilion it says that the Valar were "often called gods". that Tolkien specifically stated that thay were "called gods" would seem to imply that they were not.


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## Tar-Steve (Dec 13, 2001)

I personally don't think of the Valar or the Maiar as "angels" of any kind. Referring to them as angels seems to be the standard analogy for describing these spirits to people familiar with Christian concepts. Similarly, Eru is The One. Analogous to G-d.

(edited to change Vala and Maia to Valar and Maiar, having previously used singulars incorrectly)


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## Walter (Dec 13, 2001)

Of course analogies - like Tuor just did - can be drawn. But I think that was neither Tolkiens intention nor does it really make things in Tolkiens books easier to understand. Nonetheless it can be of help when someone new to mythology and creation myths - like it could well be for a 14 year old - reads this for the first time.

And - welcome to this forum, Tuor


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## Talierin (Dec 13, 2001)

I personally believe that the Valar are a mix of Norse/Greek gods and Catholic saints. The Elves call on them like a Catholic person would to their patron saint, but are never worshipped. You can't deny the similarities to the Norse/Greek gods though.


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## Imagineer (Oct 23, 2011)

The Sil states that wizards were made from music.

I don't recall how wizards came to be named by colors. Back on the homeland, wizards in all sorts of colors could be running around doing lord-knows-what. Does the Professor ever make colors mean anything beyond black meaning evil and white a good...or not.


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## Uminya (Oct 24, 2011)

Imagineer said:


> The Sil states that wizards were made from music.
> 
> I don't recall how wizards came to be named by colors. Back on the homeland, wizards in all sorts of colors could be running around doing lord-knows-what. Does the Professor ever make colors mean anything beyond black meaning evil and white a good...or not.


 
The wizards were Maiar, the lesser Ainur when compared to the Valar. Think of them as lesser "angels". They were disguised as men and sent to Middle Earth as an attempt by the Valar to thwart evil without becoming directly involved.

There are two blue wizards, one brown wizard, a white wizard and a grey wizard who became white. You could draw some conclusions about their purpose by the colors, such as Radagast (brown) being connected to the Earth (he was sent by Yavanna), or white (a combination of all colors of light) representing leadership in Saruman and then Gandalf. Blue, however, I'm not entirely certain on. Grey might have represented humility, possibly.

Tolkien's usage of colors to represent concepts seems to stay in line with Western thinking, on the whole.


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## Elthir (Oct 24, 2011)

I don't know about any meaning behind the colour blue, but in the text where blue is noted the colour is referred to as sea-blue.

On the other hand, there is a later letter -- later than the essay in which blue is associated with these wizards -- in which Tolkien states that he doubts the other two had colours.

So unless there's something even later, these wizards might not be blue at all.


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## morgoth145 (Oct 24, 2011)

Galin said:


> I don't know about any meaning behind the colour blue, but in the text where blue is noted the colour is referred to as sea-blue.
> 
> On the other hand, there is a later letter -- later than the essay in which blue is associated with these wizards -- in which Tolkien states that he doubts the other two had colours.
> 
> So unless there's something even later, these wizards might not be blue at all.


i remember reading somewhere that the reason the blue wizards were called the blue wizards, is because it is said that they arrived in sea-blue robes.
but they may indeed not even had any specific colour.


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## Uminya (Oct 24, 2011)

Their "blue" color seems to come only from the reference to them as _Ithryn Luin_, but that may have been a placeholder since they weren't really described. All that is known is that one of them was chosen by Oromë, and the other was taken along as a friend.


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## Elthir (Oct 24, 2011)

The reference to blue goes a bit beyond the Sindarin title _Ithryn Luin_...



> 'Others there were also: two clad in sea-blue, and one in earthen brown; and the last came who seemed the least, less tall than the others, and in looks more aged, grey-haired and grey-clad, and leaning on his staff.' JRRT, the Istari, Unfinished Tales


But as I say, a later reference notes...




> 'I have not named the colours because I do not know them. I doubt that they had distinctive colours. Distinction was only required in the case of the three who remained in the relatively small area of the North-west...' JRRT, Letters


And I can't find a reference (yet) written after this letter that refers to these wizards as blue.


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## Adanedhel (Dec 17, 2011)

i thought that the wizards ( istari ) were maiar, or not?


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## Bard the Bowman (Dec 17, 2011)

While I can't comment on every single wizard in Middle-earth, I can say definitely that the Istari, those wizards, are Maiar spirits in the forms of old men. Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast, and Alatar and Pallando, the stewards of Nardor.


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## Prince of Cats (Dec 17, 2011)

Bard the Bowman said:


> While I can't comment on every single wizard in Middle-earth, I can say definitely that the Istari, those wizards, are Maiar spirits in the forms of old men. Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast, and Alatar and Pallando,* the stewards of Nardor.*


 
I think you should put a disclaimer that the Nardor part is fan fiction. AFAIK, no one can "say definitely that" Alatar and Pallando had anything to do with Nardor from Tolkien's writings. Not to say that the Nardor issue couldn't make a great topic in the Glittering Caves subforum of TTF


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## Adanedhel (Dec 18, 2011)

guys what or who was Nardor. i 've never heard about it


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## Elthir (Dec 18, 2011)

'Stewards of Nardor' is fan fiction -- which I agree should be noted as such, in any case.


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## Adanedhel (Dec 18, 2011)

and where was nardor?


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## Bard the Bowman (Dec 18, 2011)

Nardor was far in the south beyond Far Harad. It's people became scattered after its fall and journeyed north and joined the Witch-King of Angmar.


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## Elthir (Dec 19, 2011)

Adanedhel said:


> and where was nardor?



Well there is no place called Nardor, as this term doesn't exist in Tolkien's Middle-earth -- just in case you think the only made up part here is that these Wizards _became stewards_ of Nardor, but that Nardor itself is still attested as a real name.

If you want to know 'what happened' to the other two wizards, what we actually have is a jumble of texts never published by the author himself, written at various times, all of which are not necessarily intended to be in agreement with each other, as Tolkien could simply change his mind easily enough if a given detail had not been published, or write something new if he had forgotten an essay written years ago. 

Anyway, here's a brief look at some of the ideas Tolkien actually wrote...

_________________


*1954* Istari essay (Unfinished Tales): number of order unknown -- two wizards came clad in Sea-blue, little known of them -- no names in the West save Ithryn Luin 'the Blue Wizards' -- passed into East with Saruman but never returned -- whether remained in the East pursuing their purpose, or perished, or as some hold were ensnared by Sauron and became his servants, is not known. 

The Lord of the Rings *1954-55

*In _The Lord of the Rings_ the Istari were said to have appeared in Middle-earth when maybe a thousand years of the Third Age had passed. The Istari need not have arrived all together, on the same exact ship I mean, but I think the implication is that they came in this general time at least -- this will be notable compared to a very late idea Tolkien was at least thinking about.

A hard to date, brief and hasty sketch 

Quenya names appear, Alatar and Pallando -- this dates from sometime after the completion of _The Lord of the Rings._ 

An alliterative verse 


This verse mentions of the five that came from a far country, only one retuned. 

*1958* letter 211 

Tolkien -- doesn't know colours (doubts they had distinctive colours) -- doesn't know anything clearly about the 'other two' -- thinks they went to distant land, fears they failed, and suspects they were founders or beginners or secret cults and magic traditions outlasting Sauron's fall. 

A late text 

Tolkien here muses on the success of the other two: _'The 'other two' came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age' _(and it was said that the reincarnated Glorfindel probably came to Middle-earth in SA 1600). And... [they] _'... must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East ... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West.' _According to this late note their names are Morinehtar and Romestamo (or Rome(n)star). 

another late note 

_'no names are recorded for the two wizards'_ 

But compare with yet another passage, similarly dated very late (probably *1972*)... _'Saruman is said (e.g. by Gandalf himself) to have been the chief of the Istari -- that is, higher in Valinórean stature than the others. Gandalf was evidently the next in order. Radagast is presented as a person of much less power and wisdom. Of the other two nothing is said in published work save the reference to the five wizards in the altercation between Gandalf and Saruman. Now these Maiar were sent by the Valar at a crucial moment in the history of Middle-earth to enhance the resistance of the Elves of the West, waning in power, and of the uncorrupted Men of the West, greatly outnumbered by those of the East and South.'

_To my mind this late text implies that all the Istari came at the same general time, better agreeing with what was published in _The Lord of the Rings,_ and in my opinion casting doubt on the other late conception that the other two came much earlier and had a measure of 'success' in general (although which text is later than the other isn't known in any event).


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## Adanedhel (Dec 19, 2011)

in which his work does Tolkien reports the name "Nardor"?


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## Elthir (Dec 19, 2011)

Adanedhel said:


> in which his work does Tolkien reports the name "Nardor"?



In no work written by JRR Tolkien. The name Nardor is made up by some fan. As I said in my last post, there is no place called Nardor, as this term doesn't exist in Tolkien's Middle-earth.


Not that I recall anyway :*)


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## Adanedhel (Dec 19, 2011)

Ok. Thanks. Do you know by any chance where does Tolkien reports the existance of a land called "dark land"?


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## Bard the Bowman (Dec 19, 2011)

"dark land" likely is Mordor. I do not have the reference on me though, but i'm sure I could find one in a couple minutes. However "dark land" could also refer to Nardor because its enclosing mountains were so dark in color. Also the people became darker skinned, although nowhere near the complexion of the Haradrim.


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## Elthir (Dec 19, 2011)

Bard the Bowman said:


> "dark land" likely is Mordor. I do not have the reference on me though, but i'm sure I could find one in a couple minutes. However "dark land" could also refer to Nardor because its enclosing mountains were so dark in color. Also the people became darker skinned, although nowhere near the complexion of the Haradrim.



If a source for Mordor is wanted, see letter 347: 'In S. initial g was retained in composition, where a contact n + g occurred. So born 'hot, red' + gil to borñgil; morn 'black' + dor to morñdor; the triconsonantal group then being reduced to rg, rd.'



And considering that the question was 'where does Tolkien...' then in that context 'black or dark land' cannot refer to 'Nardor'.


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## Bard the Bowman (Dec 20, 2011)

You're right Galin, but I almost thought I remembered it being mentioned in a vague letter somewhere.


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## Adanedhel (Dec 20, 2011)

I have seen a map where there is a great island southeast of Endor, and westwards of the Walls of the Sun and it is called "Dark Land" (south land). There is a great forest northwards and a mountain chain eastward called "the Yellow Mountains". There are also two nameless rivers.


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## Elthir (Dec 20, 2011)

There is a 'Dark Land' (among other details) on a diagram of the world as Tolkien imagined things in the mid 1930s -- reproduced in _The Shaping of Middle-Earth_ in the _Ambarcanta_ section.


I can't recall if it's ever mentioned again in the 1950s or later, but the Ambarcanta is an early-ish work. In any case this 'map' is quite sparse, and there is no connection here to any place called 'Nardor' (which incidentally is the name of a being in another Tolkien-based fan fiction story that I stumbled upon, rather than the name of a land), nor to any of the Wizards.


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## Bard the Bowman (Dec 24, 2011)

True. Tolkien never mentioned Nardor. But one can't help assume Nardor existed.


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## Elthir (Dec 26, 2011)

Bard the Bowman said:


> True. Tolkien never mentioned Nardor. But one can't help assume Nardor existed.



I can certainly help it :*p


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## Bard the Bowman (Dec 26, 2011)

Well you must not have examined the facts. Clearly, Nardor existed.


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## Prince of Cats (Dec 27, 2011)

I don't mean to be implicated in



> But one can't help assume Nardor existed.



My ideas are my own. And everyone knows what they say about assuming  I never really imagined a kingdom of Nardor. Without any reference from Tolkien I think it's a real stretch to present this forgotten Nardor place as something to be assumed in the histories of Ea.

But the subject and imagining upon it is really interesting. The lands these elusive wizards went to are pretty foreign to the reader, which helps add to the sense of depth in the world. It's a wonderful realm for fan fiction. But when people are asking for the fate & nature of the wizards I feel like presenting this Nardor place as fact is misinformation


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## Elthir (Dec 27, 2011)

Bard the Bowman said:


> Well you must not have examined the facts. Clearly, Nardor existed.



But what facts? The only facts about Middle-earth are written by JRR Tolkien. For example (based on your statement: _'... I almost thought I remembered it being mentioned in a vague letter somewhere.'_) if there's something in a letter somewhere please provide the actual citation.

Feel free to present any facts that make it clear that a place called Nardor existed 




> *Prince of Cats* wrote: But when people are asking for the fate & nature of the wizards I feel like presenting this Nardor place as fact is misinformation.



I agree.


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## Bard the Bowman (Dec 29, 2011)

Nardor makes sense. They were the reason Gondor survived, but they also were part of the reason Arnor fell. (True Fan Fiction).


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## Elthir (Dec 29, 2011)

Bard the Bowman said:


> Nardor makes sense. They were the reason Gondor survived, but they also were part of the reason Arnor fell. (True Fan Fiction).



Yes, true fan fiction it seems so far -- which obviously doesn't make something true in Tolkien's world. And anyone here could make up things on the spot about the two other wizards, things that (to them) make sense, and post them in this thread... 


... but my challenge to you was to provide actual textual evidence that a place called Nardor clearly existed in Tolkien's world (as you claimed I must not have examined the facts), or actually any textual evidence about the fan fiction you are indulging in here... 

... for examination :*)


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