# Did Elrond Maximize Vilya’s Powers?



## Ron Simpson (Aug 1, 2018)

It was stated that Vilya (the blue-stoned ring) was the mightiest of the 3 Elven rings, and in Elrond’s keeping. But I don’t recall Elrond doing all that much with it.

Gandalf seemed to get full use from Narya: which most likely augmented both his own courage & that of those around him, and provided him with extra fire-power for all the pyrotechnics he used when battling enemies (vs. Balrog, vs. Nazgul on Weathertop etc..)
Galadriel obviously put Nenya to good use by devising & maintaining her ‘shield’ around Lorien within which she slowed both time and decay.
But what did Elrond accomplish with Vilya? I guess he used it to heal Frodo’s stab wound, but was there anything else of significance?



> Elrond wore a mantle of grey and had a star upon his forehead, and a silver harp was in
> his hand, and upon his finger was a ring of gold with a great blue stone, Vilya, mightiest of the
> Three. RoTK, The Grey Havens


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## Starbrow (Aug 1, 2018)

Chieftains of the Dunedain were fostered at Rivendell. Maybe Elrond's power kept Sauron from realizing that a descendant of Isildur lived.


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## Elthir (Aug 2, 2018)

In my opinion Elrond also slowed the effects of time (not time itself), as Galadriel did.


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## Ron Simpson (Aug 2, 2018)

Galin said:


> In my opinion Elrond also slowed the effects of time (not time itself), as Galadriel did.



In what way did he do that?


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## Elthir (Aug 2, 2018)

By using the ring 

"The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay (i.e. "change" viewed as a regrettable thing), the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance … " Tolkien, letter 131, probably late 1951

"Yet after the fall of Sauron their power was ever at work, and where they abode there mirth also dwelt and all things were unstained by the griefs of time." Then it's noted that Cirdan had given his ring to Mithrandir, and "Thus it was that in two domains the bliss and beauty of the Elves remained still undiminished while that Age endured: in Imladris and Lothlorien, the land hidden between Celebrant and Anduin…" _Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age_

And despite the date (October 24th): "(…) as if summer still lingered in Elrond's gardens." _Many Meetings_, The Lord of the Rings

And "Time doesn't seem to pass here: it just is" _Many Meetings_, The Lord of the Rings

To me, similar to the feel of Galadriel's realm, though arguably this preservation power is more highlighted by the story-teller with respect to Lothlorien.


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## Ron Simpson (Aug 2, 2018)

Thx Galin: your argument is persuasive. Those references to preservation are so muted that I missed them in approx. 35 readings of that Chapter (or perhaps that says more about me than anything else! ) Anyway, its good to know that Elrond (my favourite character) wasn't just using it as a paper weight. But comparatively, its seems that JRRT practically gushes about Lorien every chance he gets...

But what would you say to this: Aragorn, who was intimately knowledgeable about both Lorien & Rivendell called the former 'the heart of Elvendom on earth'. So I wonder what made it more elvish than Rivendell? Perhaps Elrond, being only half-elven, could not extract full value from the mightier Vilya, whereas Galadriel, the epitome of elvishness got more out of the lesser Nenya?



> “At the hill’s foot Frodo found Aragorn, standing still and silent as a tree; but in his hand was a small golden bloom of elanor, and a light was in his eyes. He was wrapped in some fair memory: and as Frodo looked at him he knew that he beheld things as they had been in this same place. For the grim years were removed from the face of Aragorn, and he seemed clothed in white, a young lord tall and fair; and he spoke words in the Elvish tongue to one whom Frodo could not see. Arwen vanimelda, namarie! He said, and then he drew a breath, and returning out of his thought he looked at Frodo and smiled. `Here is the heart of Elvendom on earth,’ he said, `and here my heart dwells ever


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 2, 2018)

Remember, he said that at Cerin Amroth, the former house of a king.

But it could be applied to Lorien in general -- the inhabitants were mostly Silvan Elves, though enriched by the coming of some Sindarin Elves. The phrase "the heart of Elvendom on earth" seems significant, as the Nandor were totally "of" Middle Earth. I'm reminded of something from "On Fairy Stories":

_For it is man who is, in contrast to fairies, supernatural. . .where they are natural, far more natural than he._

I think Lorien is a picture of "pure" Elvishness, whereas Rivendell is something else: a center of lore, of history, of preserving the greatness of the past. It seems clearly modeled on the Medieval abbey.

Further, it has been home and refuge, as Starbrow said, to Men -- the Dunedain; and to Elves of various kinds, great and small, Noldor, Sindar, and Teleri. Plus, of course, one very important Hobbit! It's a far more _cosmopolitan _place than Lorien, welcoming both scholars and kings, as befits an abbey of the Middle Ages.

Also, it withstood several sieges, and was a shield and marshaling point against Angmar. I may be mistaken, but my impression has always been that the area down to the Fords was under the control and protection of the ring.


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## Ron Simpson (Aug 3, 2018)

Yes, I agree that Rivendell wasn't the 'closed-society' that was Lorien. I only asked the question in the context of Vilya's power - i.e. wouldn't the most powerful elven ring make it's home the most elvish? But maybe Elrond (whose very lineage was cosmopolitan) intended to create a 'home and refuge' for all and sundry, and used the ring for that very purpose (& not to create another elf-centric domain). I could buy that...


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 3, 2018)

I guess the way I would look at it is that, although the rings were made by the Elves, they weren't necessarily intended to concentrate or enhance "elvishness", though it would make sense that they were more attuned to the makers.

From the results, it seems the intention was to create a "device" which would amplify and focus the innate power and nature of whoever wielded it. We see this at work in the lesser rings: they enabled the Dwarves to create the foundations of their hoards and "kingdoms", if we can call them that. And they allowed Men to do the same, in terms of power and influence. Of course, they also amplified their _weaknesses: _the greed for gold among the dwarves, the lust for power in men. Whether this was due to the fact that the rings were not intended for these peoples, and were therefore somehow "distorted", or whether it was because they were tainted by Sauron, either in their original making, or after their capture by him, is a question. Possibly both.

In any event, I think it's possible to look at the Two in that light: Galadriel considered herself a permanent exile; while her story evolved in radical ways over the course of Tolkien's writings, at the time LOTR was written, this was certainly the case; therefore her goals would be to preserve "Elvendom", and elvishness, _in _Middle Earth, without consideration for the outside world -- at least as much as possible.

Elrond, on the other hand, seems more concerned with that wider world, especially the West: preserving the lore, and nurturing the remains, of the great fallen kingdoms. His wistful reminiscence of the Last Alliance, and his sheltering of the Dunedain, attest to that. And of course, he received his ring from Gil-galad, greatest of Elven kings.

Getting back to Gandalf, I'd point out that, although he certainly had a love for the Elves, he definitely was not one; yet, as you say, he apparently was able to make full use of it, which I would take as further argument that the rings were not, by _nature, _centered on "elvishness".

Regarding his use of it, I'll add that, though it's at least possible that it added to his "firepower", my feeling has always been that its powers were of a different, and more subtle kind, as indicated by Cirdan's words upon giving it to him:

_'Take this ring, Master,' he said, 'for your labours will be heavy; but it will support you in the weariness that you have taken upon yourself. For this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill."_


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## Barliman (Aug 5, 2018)

The flood at the ford could have been Elrond using Vilya.



Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Regarding his use of it, I'll add that, though it's at least possible that it added to his "firepower", my feeling has always been that its powers were of a different, and more subtle kind, as indicated by Cirdan's words upon giving it to him:
> 
> _'Take this ring, Master,' he said, 'for your labours will be heavy; but it will support you in the weariness that you have taken upon yourself. For this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill."_​


That would certainly imply he would use it, however I'm curious if Gandalf actually wore Narya. I don't recall that it was ever mentioned until the The Grey Havens, unlike Vilya and Nenya.
When Frodo saw him wearing it at the Grey Havens I got the impression that was the first time he'd seen it. It's difficult for me to believe that in everything they went through together no one would have noticed him wearing it if he had been.
However, if he carried it with him yet didn't wear it, he would have lost it when he was battling the Balrog, since he lay naked on the mountain top.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 5, 2018)

I don't recall a mention of Vilya being seen, either, until Frodo encounters Elrond in the company of elves leaving ME, quoted by Ron above.

In another thread, I suggested the possibility that the Three themselves were normally invisible to others. Remember the scene of Galadriel's Mirror: Frodo, because he carries the One, can see it, but Sam can't.


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## Deleted member 12094 (Aug 6, 2018)

One other intriguing detail is that, if Gandalf did wear his ring permanently, why Saruman did not rob him of that ring when he held him imprisoned, since he knew that Círdan had given that ring to Gandalf.


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## Barliman (Aug 6, 2018)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I don't recall a mention of Vilya being seen, either, until Frodo encounters Elrond in the company of elves leaving ME, quoted by Ron above.


Yeah, you're right, I thought I remembered her saying at the Mirror of Galadriel that Elrond wore another.


> In another thread, I suggested the possibility that the Three themselves were normally invisible to others. Remember the scene of Galadriel's Mirror: Frodo, because he carries the One, can see it, but Sam can't.


Possibly, but no mention of Sam seeing it could be because the interaction was between her and Frodo, Sam was mainly interested in just seeing "Elf-magic" and at that point was so upset about what he'd seen in the mirror that he had his head buried in hands saying, _"I wish I had never come here...."_

It seems strange that he didn't notice Vilya when he was in Rivendell, if he could see them because he bore the One.



Merroe said:


> One other intriguing detail is that, if Gandalf did wear his ring permanently, why Saruman did not rob him of that ring when he held him imprisoned, since he knew that Círdan had given that ring to Gandalf.


That's a good point.


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## Ron Simpson (Aug 6, 2018)

Yes Merroe, I also find that perplexing.

I can come up with 6 (wobbly) scenarios, the first 3 of which seem ridiculously unlikely:

1. Gandalf didn’t take it with him: no evidence for this, and begs the question as to who would have kept it for him?
2. Saruman tried to take it but failed: again, no evidence for this, as he certainly had Gandalf 'at his mercy’ so to speak
3. Saruman forgot about it: highly unlikely, given that the lore of the elven-rings was his stock-in-trade
4. Saruman didn’t want it: since the 3 ‘endure no evil’, perhaps Saruman couldn’t have used it anyway, so why take it?
5. Saruman was reserving it for Sauron: as ‘jailor of Mordor’ he would present a double gift to Sauron and receive huge reward. _(Dear Sauron, pls send a Nazgul or two over to collect the meddlesome Gandalf AND an elven ring of power)_
6. Narya somehow protected itself: see quotes below



> _‘A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo'_
> The Shadow of the Past, LoTR





> _‘He knows that it is not one of the Three, for they have never been lost, and they endure no evil'_
> The Shadow of the Past, LoTR


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## Elthir (Aug 6, 2018)

Bilbo also remarks that he can't count days in Rivendell. And later Tolkien-as-translator and Frodo-as-writer explain: "In Rivendell there was memory of ancient things; in Lorien the ancient things still lived on in the waking world. Evil had been seen and heard there, sorrow had been known; the Elves feared and distrusted the world outside: wolves were howling on the wood's borders: but on the land of Lorien no shadow lay."


But that said, a couple of external wonderings: Tolkien actually played with the idea that time itself flowed differently in Lorien (draft ideas), until ultimately rejecting this for effects of time. And Tolkien's changing mind about Galadriel's movements has her (in later texts) taking over Lorien after 1,981 years in the Third Age (Amroth is lost in TA 1,981 anyway)! Meaning Elrond could use his ring in Imladris well before Galadriel was co-keeper of Lorien at least.

In my opinion, and without going into this tangle, I think Tolkien still had some work to do here with respect to Galadriel's movements, her ring-wielding during these pre-Lorien ruling days, and her mallorn-introducing (I've come to think that Tolkien should have dropped this posthumously published detail about Galadriel introducing the mallorn trees in Lorien).


On the newer topic I don't think the Three were invisible. I have a longer argument with respect to the mirror scene, but in summary I think:

1) Frodo was able to recognize Galadriel's ring as one of the Three. Essentially he "saw" as in understood.

2) As Barliman already raised, I think Sam was quite upset and distracted by his vision in the mirror. He still sees the light of the ring but thinks it a star -- he doesn't seem to have been listening very well here either.

3) In my opinion Gandalf wore his ring openly at the Havens as in: openly on his finger at all times, since it could now become generally known that he had had it. I would say that earlier he had worn it on his finger at select times, according to circumstances, but kept it hidden when an "unwanted revelation" could be possible.

4) At Orthanc, Gandalf hid Narya in his beard.

Or something


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## Deleted member 12094 (Aug 6, 2018)

Love your humor Galin!  I might stop trimming my beard, could hide some things. 

As to Ron Simpson's contribution, and whilst hoping not to anger our nice JRRT-loving community, I'd like to add a 7th scenario to your list:

7. JRRT overlooked this when he wrote LotR!

It's not unthinkable, really, but I must admit that my point is rather weak too.

I scanned JRRT's letters for any particular explanations on Narya about that; found none.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 6, 2018)

Perhaps then "invisible" is the wrong word; Ron's point 7 is a hint towards another way of looking at it: that one of the powers of the Three is that it enabled wearers to conceal them from others. We certainly get a sample of its powers to alter perception:

_She lifted up her hand and from the ring that she wore there issued a great light that illumined her alone and left all else dark. She stood before Frodo seeming now tall beyond measurement, and beautiful beyond enduring, terrible and worshipful.
_
The wording indicates we are seeing through Frodo's eyes; I suspect Sam saw it differently. Yet I can't believe he sat with his head in his hands during the entire sequence of Frodo's looking in the Mirror, Galadriel's dramatic speech of defiance against the Enemy, her ruminations on the fate of the Elves, and her rejection of the Ring, only to "wake up" when she asks him if he saw her ring. He was paying attention, though he didn’t understand it all; he saw a "star through her fingers" -- true sight was withheld from him -- but he grasped enough of the conversation to say:

_'But if you'll pardon my speaking out, I think my master was right. I wish you'd take his Ring. You'd put things to rights'_ etc.

As to why Frodo wasn't able to see Vilya at Rivendell, he asked that very question, and Galadriel answered it: "You have not tried". There's some ambiguity about his seeing the ring: was it because she "allowed" him to see it? I don't believe so. As she says:

_'Yet even so, as Ring-bearer and as one that has borne it on finger and seen that which is hidden, your sight is grown keener".
_
Frodo has seen "the other side", as Gandalf says, and the effects of this increase his perception of the "invisible world". Could he have seen Vilya, or for that matter, Narya? Perhaps, had he tried, but fortunately for him, he didn’t: "Do not try! It would destroy you". Next to the One, the Three are the most powerful artifacts in Middle Earth, and are wielded by, next to Sauron (and perhaps Saruman) its three greatest beings; an attempt to match oneself against any of these, even for one carrying the Ring, would have fried the brain of a simple hobbit.

But there's more:

_'You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine'.
_
Frodo sees Galadriel's ring only _after _looking into her Mirror; this is not a mere seeing of "visions": it is a transforming experience. That Tolkien considered it so is evident when we note that the entire chapter, from the entry into Caras Galadhon, is named for the katabasis scene with which it ends. (I would argue that it is not the only katabasis episode in the book, but that's another subject).

BTW, Barley, I couldn't find where Galadriel mentions Vilya; maybe you were thinking of her words: "it is not permitted to speak of it, and Elrond could not do so"?

On another note, Ron's fourth point raises an interesting question: did Saruman consider himself "evil"? His speech to Gandalf reveals what he deems important: "knowledge, rule, order". That he had _become _evil is in no doubt, but whether he _recognized _just how far he had fallen is worth chewing over.


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## Ron Simpson (Aug 6, 2018)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> On another note, Ron's fourth point raises an interesting question: did Saruman consider himself "evil"? His speech to Gandalf reveals what he deems important: "knowledge, rule, order". That he had _become _evil is in no doubt, but whether he _recognized _just how far he had fallen is worth chewing over.



-Probably not, even though Gandalf told him otherwise when he cast him from the Order & the Council. But that may be a defining characteristic of (wannabe) despots: they never think themselves evil, and are generally not given over to meaningful introspection, unless it supports their agenda. (As for ‘knowledge, rule, order’: all well and good, so long as it is narrowly defined by them)
-I’d wager it truly came home to him in the Shire when that keen wind blew in from the West and dissipated his spirit. Prior to that he was likely still ‘gnawing’.



> _You have become a fool, Saruman, and yet pitiable. You might still have turned away from folly and evil, and have been of service. But you choose to stay and gnaw the ends of your old plots._ TTT, The Voice of Saruman


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 6, 2018)

Ron Simpson said:


> -I’d wager it truly came home to him in the Shire when that keen wind blew in from the West and dissipated his spirit.



That would do it!


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## Barliman (Aug 6, 2018)

Galin said:


> 3) In my opinion Gandalf wore his ring openly at the Havens as in: openly on his finger at all times, since it could now become generally known that he had had it. I would say that earlier he had worn it on his finger at select times, according to circumstances, but kept it hidden when an "unwanted revelation" could be possible.


Good points.
The biggest problem I have with Gandalf having his ring with him is his battle with the Balrog. I had said before that if he wasn't wearing it he'd have lost it, but I forgot, even though I always thought it, that he "died" on Celebdil.

"Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads I will not tell.
Naked I was sent back - for a brief time, until my task is done."

If he carried Narya with him, wearing it or otherwise, I think he'd have lost it, since it was an object in the physical world.


> 4) At Orthanc, Gandalf hid Narya in his beard.
> 
> Or something


"Or something" solves a lot of riddles. 




Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> BTW, Barley, I couldn't find where Galadriel mentions Vilya; maybe you were thinking of her words: "it is not permitted to speak of it, and Elrond could not do so"?


Yeah, I conflated the Grey Havens and The Mirror of Galadriel



> On another note, Ron's fourth point raises an interesting question: did Saruman consider himself "evil"? His speech to Gandalf reveals what he deems important: "knowledge, rule, order". That he had become evil is in no doubt, but whether he recognized just how far he had fallen is worth chewing over.


I got the impression Saruman considered himself the savior of Middle Earth, the most appropriate to rule. I doubt many despots think of themselves as evil.
Ah, I see Ron beat me to it. LOL


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 6, 2018)

My impression was always that, though Gandalf "actually died", as Tolkien stated in a letter, the fact that he returned to the mountain peak meant that he reanimated his body. In which case, if he were wearing the ring, he would still have it.

A new body would not need to appear at the scene of the old one's death; it could happen in Lorien, or anywhere in Middle Earth. Nor, speaking of Lorien, should a new body need the healing he found there.

Now I think about it, coming back in a new body gives us the odd picture of _two_ "Gandalfs" lying on the peak!


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## Barliman (Aug 6, 2018)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> My impression was always that, though Gandalf "actually died", as Tolkien stated in a letter, the fact that he returned to the mountain peak meant that he reanimated his body. In which case, if he were wearing the ring, he would still have it.


I didn't get the impression that his body was reanimated. Rather his spirit returned in a body of the same form.
But yeah, if he died on Celebdil and his spirit wandered roads, then his body on Celebdil was reanimated, he likely would have retained the ring.

I wouldn't think his body would be in very good shape after battling the Balrog, but I guess if it could be reanimated it could also be repaired.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 6, 2018)

Yes, and that is why he asked Gwaihir to take him to Lothlorien:

_'I tarried there in the ageless time of that land where days bring healing not decay. Healing I found, and I was clothed in white'.
_
It's common in romance for the hero to be wounded, and then healed by a "doctor" figure.


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## Barliman (Aug 6, 2018)

Ah yes, I'd forgotten that line.


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## Elthir (Aug 7, 2018)

I agree that Frodo's ability was enhanced, but I still think he didn't suddenly see Nenya, but suddenly understood what it was (for myself, I'm not sure I would have noticed Galadriel was even wearing a ring until she made her notable gesture under Earendil). When Frodo saw Nenya, it's likened to a star, "... as if the Even-star had come down to rest upon her hand. Frodo gazed with awe; for suddenly it seemed to him that he understood."

Tolkien has Sam see a star too (for myself, I'm not suggesting Sam had his head in his hands the whole time, but to my mind he was still upset and distracted by his vision -- still referring to the gaffer at the end of this scene), but even if Sam had realized the star was a ring, he couldn't perceive/know that it was one of the Three.

Galadriel says this to Frodo, and in the next breath turns to Sam. "And did you not see and recognize the ring upon my finger? Did you see my ring?" she asked, turning again to Sam.

To me, the second part seems an abbreviated form of the same question to Frodo. And Sam doesn't say that he saw nothing, but that he saw the same "seeming image" that Frodo saw -- a star -- but he's not a ringbearer of course, and even after Galadriel asks her question, Sam's response still includes what I believe to be his main distraction through all this, his vision, including "them digging up the gaffer and turning him adrift."

And Frodo's question to Galadriel (the one he meant to ask Gandalf in Rivendell) reads: "I am permitted to wear the One: why cannot I see all the others and know the thoughts of those that wear them?"

To me this is not merely about visual sight at a given meeting with someone, for example (not that anyone said otherwise), but goes to the very perception that Sauron desired with his ring ruse: you put on the One, and you can "see" the bearers and their thoughts. But as noted (Galadriel says), Frodo has not tried this. Yet even so "your sight has grown keener. You have perceived my thought more clearly than many that are accounted wise."

I would say sight/perception/recognition. 

Elrond may have also worn Vilya openly on his finger only in select times, but on the other _hand_ (cough, pun intended), generally speaking, Elrond wearing jewelry doesn't necessarily mean he's wearing Vilya.


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## Ron Simpson (Aug 12, 2018)

Galin said:


> "Yet after the fall of Sauron their power was ever at work, and where they abode there mirth also dwelt and all things were unstained by the griefs of time." Then it's noted that Cirdan had given his ring to Mithrandir, and "Thus it was that in two domains the bliss and beauty of the Elves remained still undiminished while that Age endured: in Imladris and Lothlorien, the land hidden between Celebrant and Anduin…" _Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age_



So to extrapolate, with the ring passing to Gandalf, the Grey Havens was qualitatively diminished: less mirth, less elven bliss & beauty, more tarnishing by time. Hmm, I can only imagine Cirdan's reception at the next city council meeting after his generosity to Gandalf.... a very awkward conversation indeed. "_So let me get this straight Cirdan, you just GAVE it to him_?"


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## Elthir (Aug 13, 2018)

Some say that Ciryatano never used the Red Ring...

… based on Tolkien writing a text wherein Cirdan says that Narya was entrusted to him to only keep secret, and that the ring was idle on the West Shores. See the Istari, _Unfinished Tales._

But I say he did use it, based on Tolkien publishing that the Eldar wielded the Three Rings in the Third Age, in Appendix B.

Who do you believe? JRRT or Tolkien?


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## Ron Simpson (Aug 13, 2018)

> _and where they abode there mirth also dwelt _



This may be getting a bit silly but: did the elven rings have to be intentionally 'wielded' to be beneficial, or did their mere presence confer the benefits?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 13, 2018)

My vote is for "wielded". Which means _worn._ Otherwise, why _rings_? If they were meant to be artifacts constantly broadcasting power, they could have been of any form.

When Sauron forged and _put on _the One, the Elves were immediately aware of him, and _"took off their rings"._ I take this to mean they ceased to function, until after his destruction, when they put them on again.


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## Gilgaearel (Oct 19, 2018)

I think that Gandalf wore the ring when he fought with the Balrog. 
On the bridge he says to the Balrog: _You cannot pass. *I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor.* You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.’_
What is the Secret Fire that he is talking about other than Narya that was the ring of fire?
So he wore the ring continuously but Frodo for some unknown reason wasn't able neither to see the ring nor have any clue about what Gandalf had in his mind as he did with Galandriel.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 19, 2018)

Gilgaearel said:


> What is the Secret Fire that he is talking about other than Narya that was the ring of fire?



I see you came over here and posed a question about a subject that was discussed on yet _another, _different thread.

I'll see if I can find it.

Here's an old one:

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/index.php?threads/secret-fire-sil-vs-fotr.8368/

I haven't read through it, to see if it addresses your question. A seach here for threads with "Secret Fire" in the title yields "No results". Useless.

But if you do a Google search for "Secret Fire The Tolkien Forum", several will magically appear.


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