# Once upon a time, in a vineyard far far away...



## Ithrynluin (Aug 29, 2004)

> _The Hobbit; Barrels out of Bond_
> There stood barrels, and barrels, and barrels; for the Wood-elves, and especially their king, were very fond of wine, though no vines grew in those parts. The wine, and other goods, were brought from far away, from their kinsfolk in the South, or from the vineyards of Men in distant lands.



Who were these wine-producing kinsfolk from the South? 

Surely not the Lórien elves! 

Those of Edhellond? Surely they were not numerous enough at this time to be supplying Thranduil with great quantities of wine? And when they transported it, could they remain unnoticed by Rohan and Gondor?

As for the Men in distant lands, who do you think these were?


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## Inderjit S (Aug 30, 2004)

I do not think it was either Edhellond or Lorien-since neither existed at the time, and none seem to be good places in which to grow vineyards, nor do we have any evidence of them growing any. Perhaps they had some kin on the Sea of Rhun-some of the Eldar stopped hear on the great journey-and maybe some remained, or maybe it was some Silvan tribe who migrated there later on, or maybe it was just a Elven realm in that vicinity. Though you must bear in mind the great danger which Elves who lived there faced-given the various armies who passed through and lived in, that area-I would think they were kind of secretive, as Elves are, and men feared them.


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## Ithrynluin (Aug 30, 2004)

> I do not think it was either Edhellond or Lorien-since neither existed at the time



How can we be sure that Tolkien did not have an inkling of those places already, but just did not put it down on paper?



> and none seem to be good places in which to grow vineyards,



I'd say the hills and such near Edhellond were quite suitable for growing. The climate was generally warm, the winters only moderately cool...The only problem - I don't think there were that many Elves there.



> Perhaps they had some kin on the Sea of Rhun



But the Sea of Rhun is east and south of Mirkwood, so that doesn't exactly lead one to think of 'their kinsfolk in the South', does it?



> Though you must bear in mind the great danger which Elves who lived there faced-given the various armies who passed through and lived in, that area



That's why I doubt Elves were dwelling there in the first place. It was just too close (or 'right next to') to the multitudes of (evil) Easterlings.


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## Arvedui (Aug 30, 2004)

Could Tolkien have been thinking about Dol Amroth? Was he at this time imagining Elves living there? Or was he just writing this down without any sort of thought for how this should have to fit in?
From HoME, it seems as if Tolkien knew just as little about the South as any of the Hobbit-readers would have known in the 1940s.


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## Ithrynluin (Aug 30, 2004)

That makes sense, Arv.

Maybe he was simply using 'South' as a general direction where vineyards are most likely to thrive, the south generally being a place associated with warmth?


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## Barliman Butterbur (Aug 30, 2004)

Ithrynluin said:


> Who were these wine-producing kinsfolk from the South?
> 
> Surely not the Lórien elves!
> 
> ...



I always assumed it was the men of Dale (Are we speaking of the passage from _The Hobbit,_ or am I badly off the mark?). I'm not sure that even Tolkien gave it much thought.

Barley

"Why is it that we rejoice at a birth and grieve at a funeral? It is because
we are not the person involved." —Mark Twain


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## Ithrynluin (Aug 30, 2004)

> I'm not sure that even Tolkien gave it much thought.



You may well be right, Barley. But it is the nature of some, or many Tolkien fans here, to squeeze out as much juice as possible from everything they read.  You see, it is a very enjoyable process!  



> I always assumed it was the men of Dale



That of course seems the most plausible option, as we know well enough that the Mirkwood Elves traded with the Dale men, but then again they don't exactly qualify as 'Men in distant lands', do they? 

But perhaps the elves received all their wine from the Dale men, who _in turn_ obtained it from Elves and Men of distant lands?


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## Inderjit S (Aug 30, 2004)

> How can we be sure that Tolkien did not have an inkling of those places already, but just did not put it down on paper?



Lorien was a pretty late development-and when through some deal of change, though it is possible that he had an inkling.



> I don't think there were that many Elves there.



Certainly not at the end of the T.A.



> But the Sea of Rhun is east and south of Mirkwood, so that doesn't exactly lead one to think of 'their kinsfolk in the South', does it?



Pedantry! Pedantry!  Technically speaking, Minas Tirith is to the south-east of Rivendell, but you do not see Elrond claiming "This is Boromir from the south" and some smart aleck like Erestor saying "It is the south-East, longitude...and latitude.... you doofus!" do you-generally speaking, the sea of Rhun was to the south of Mirkwood-and they also had the river link. 



> Maybe he was simply using 'South' as a general direction where vineyards are most likely to thrive, the south generally being a place associated with warmth?



Indeed-that is why the Romans drank wine the Germans beer.  



> I always assumed it was the men of Dale (Are we speaking of the passage from The Hobbit, or am I badly off the mark?). I'm not sure that even Tolkien gave it much thought.



Those Neanderthals who lived at Dale were hardly distant, unless you are a Smurf that is.


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## Ithrynluin (Aug 30, 2004)

> you do not see Elrond claiming "This is Boromir from the south" and some smart aleck like Erestor saying "It is the south-East, longitude...and latitude.... you doofus!"



Is this some sort of subliminal analogy where I am Erestor and you are Elrond? In which case, I must say you are quite generous (and modest) in choosing an equal for yourself, yet less so for moi!  Be that as it may, Minas Tirith is still much much more to the _south_ of Rivendell than it is to the _east_ of it, whereas I'd say Rhun is equally south _and_ east of Mirkwood. (but to be honest, it's a fair distance more east than south - see map  )


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## Inderjit S (Aug 30, 2004)

It is not subliminal if it is blatantly obvious, dear!

As Elrond once said;



> To be compared to Inderjit Sanghera is the greatest compliment one can give a humble Elf, such as myself



So I think it is the other way round!    

And the Sea of Rhun is significantly south of Mirkwood for it to be labelled so.


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## Ithrynluin (Aug 30, 2004)

Well, I guess all that remains for us to do is to politely agree to disagree* and let others give their opinions.  










* Boo South! Go East! Down with Inder!


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## Arthur_Vandelay (Aug 30, 2004)

Ithrynluin said:


> Who were these wine-producing kinsfolk from the South?
> Surely not the Lórien elves!
> Those of Edhellond? Surely they were not numerous enough at this time to be supplying Thranduil with great quantities of wine? And when they transported it, could they remain unnoticed by Rohan and Gondor?
> As for the Men in distant lands, who do you think these were?



You might want to check out Michael Martinez' essay "The Wild, Wild, Wood-elf West"; though it doesn't directly address your question, it may offer some clues. So might also this essay by "Lalaith."

I'd always assumed the wine came from Dorwinion.


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## baragund (Aug 31, 2004)

I recall reading about a wine producing region known as _Dorwinion_ (unsure about the spelling) that was wayyy to the south. It was mentioned in some of the earlier versions of the First Age stories that are found in the first volumes of the HOME. Could that region still have been in existence in the Third Age or was it sunk along with the rest of Beleriand?

I also recall the area around the sea of Rhun as wine producing but would there have been trade between the Woodland Elves and "Bad Guys" (i.e. Easterlings)?


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## Barliman Butterbur (Aug 31, 2004)

Ithrynluin said:


> You may well be right, Barley. But it is the nature of some, or many Tolkien fans here, to squeeze out as much juice as possible from everything they read.  You see, it is a very enjoyable process!
> 
> That of course seems the most plausible option, as we know well enough that the Mirkwood Elves traded with the Dale men, but then again they don't exactly qualify as 'Men in distant lands', do they?
> 
> But perhaps the elves received all their wine from the Dale men, who _in turn_ obtained it from Elves and Men of distant lands?



Ah yes... speculation, like hope, springs eternal in the human Tolkien fan's breast...

Baragund: "By George, I think he's got it!"

Actually, what we've desperately needed for years is all the Middle-earth saga on searchable CDs! THAT would end a lot of argument and speculation (but I doubt it will happen in my lifetime... ).

But back to the subject at hand: wine. It seems that we here on TTF aren't the only ones interested in the subject. Here's what a Google search uncovered about it, quite a bit in fact: Wine in LOTR.

Barley

"Too much sanity may be madness. And maddest of all, to see life as it is and not as it should be!" —Miguel de Cervantes


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## baragund (Aug 31, 2004)

Oh yeah, Barliman! I can't wait to get my hands on a LOTR shot glass set! 

I also recall the wine of Dorwinion really having a kick. I believe Beleg Strongbow gave a draught of it to Turin and his two elderly companions when they first journeyed to Doriath from Hithlum and it knocked them on their keisters!


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## Barliman Butterbur (Aug 31, 2004)

baragund said:


> Oh yeah, Barliman! I can't wait to get my hands on a LOTR shot glass set!



Actually, I'm holding out for the  shooter set m'self...! And they're 'specially made for the Green Dragon and the Prancing Pony!

Looking into the wine issue further, I find this on someone else's website: 

"In the Hobbit is another reference to Dorwinion, there in the chapter Barrels out of Bond it says '...the heady vintage of the great gardens of Dorwinion ... the wine of Dorwinion brings deep and pleasent dreams.'"

So I guess that settles it, doesn't it?!

Barley

"Young men have a passion for regarding their elders as senile." —Henry Adams


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## Inderjit S (Sep 2, 2004)

> I recall reading about a wine producing region known as Dorwinion (unsure about the spelling) that was wayyy to the south. It was mentioned in some of the earlier versions of the First Age stories that are found in the first volumes of the HOME. Could that region still have been in existence in the Third Age or was it sunk along with the rest of Beleriand



The reference is from BoLT 2, and deals with the tale of Túrin. It is situated on the north side of the Sea of Rhun.


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## Arvedui (Sep 3, 2004)

From _The Silmarillion, Of the Sindar:_ 


> Little is known of the wanderings of the Nandor, whom he [Lenwë] led away down Anduin: some, it is said, dwelt age-long in the woods of the Vale of the Great River, some came at last to its mouths and there dwelt by the Sea,


So maybe these Nandor could be the "wine-producing kinsfolk" in the South?


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## Inderjit S (Sep 3, 2004)

> So maybe these Nandor could be the "wine-producing kinsfolk" in the South?



Yes-and it would also work with their "kinsfolk" quote-since the Nandor are the kinsfolk of the Sylvan Elves-the Nandor are in fact the Sylvan folk, or they formed the nucleus of Elves in the Elven realms of Mirkwood and Lórien. The Sylvan Elves were the ones who, in after ages, remained to the East of the Misty Mountains, and eventually became amalgamated with the Sindarin, Ñoldorin as well as the Nandorin exiles from Beleriand, as well as the Avarin Elves.



> it was later increased by adventurers of the Sylvan Elves, seeking for the sea down the Anduin. The Sylvan Elves were middle Elves according to Númenórean classification, though unknown to the Atani until the later days: for they were like the Sindar Teleri, but were laggards in the hindmost companies who had never crossed the Misty Mountains and established realms either side of the Anduin.



In early Sylvan history, the Elves under Oropher lived in Southern Mirkwood at Dol Guldur-and not far from Dorwinion.


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