# Who is stupider Merry or Pippin?



## Gil-Galad (Oct 11, 2002)

No doubt Merry and Pippin are the stupidest characters in the book,but i wonder who is stupider Merry or Pippin?


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 11, 2002)

I personally think Pippin is stupider.


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## HLGStrider (Oct 12, 2002)

Definately young, inexperienced, and foolish, but let's not bash them too hard... and definately Pippen. Sometimes Merry didn't think things through, but Pippen was constantly causing trouble.


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## Elu Thingol (Oct 12, 2002)

I have to go with Pippin.


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## Ancalagon (Oct 12, 2002)

This confirms for me how the characters portrayed in the film have sorely misrepresented Tolkiens characters in his books. It would appear that way and as I have always feared, demeans Tolkiens work. Shameful.


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## Maeglin (Oct 12, 2002)

Pippin is fool of a Took that should have thrown himself in with the pebble in Moria, and "how are we gonna get in?" what kind of a stupid question is that, but I personally like Gandalf's answer " Bang on the door with your head Peregrin Took."


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## Turgon (Oct 12, 2002)

Mmm... Merry wasn't stupid at all... one of the things that really annoys me about the film. In fact good old Merry was something of a scholar - the author of several interesting books. _The Herblore of the Shire_ springs immediately to mind. As for Pippin well I think 'Fool of Took' sums him up quite well, at least in the earlier stages of the book. I put it down to youthful exuberance... Pippin learns a lot during his adventure, he's quite a changed fellow after his chat with Sauron in the Palantír and the Madness of Denethor.


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## Ravenna (Oct 12, 2002)

I wouldn't say either was really stupid. at the start of the book they are both young; by hobbit standards at least, wealthy, and sons of what could almost be termed hobbit nobility, they have never had to work or really do much for themselves before and therefore are indolent, young and foolish. As the story progresses, they both mature and show a good deal of intelligence in their dealings with the people they encounter.
Another factor to take into account is that initially during their journey, they have no defined role to play, they are simply tagging along for Frodo's moral support, later as they take on a measure of responsibility, they develop much more and the intelligence they truly has comes out.
I do agree though that the film depicts them as somewhat thick, which is a shame.


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## Snaga (Oct 12, 2002)

The 'more stupid than Pippin' list...

1. The SBs
2. Fatty Bolger
3. Barliman
4. Bill Ferny
5. Boromir
6. Celeborn
7. Ugluk
8. Bergil
9. Eomer's friend (Eothain?)
10. Ted Sandyman


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## Niniel (Oct 12, 2002)

They are not stupuid at all! In fact, Merry is my favourite characacter, exactly because he is a very smart hobbit, loyal to his friends. He is a constant support to Frodo, in a silent way. He feels a bit useless when riding with the Rohirrim, but he more than makes up for that by slaying the Nazgul Lord. Pippin is young an da bit reckless, but he grows a lot during the story. As you can clearly see in The Scouring of the Shire he has changed a lot since the beginning. So I hope this idea of Merry and Pippin being stupid, that might be caused by the film in which they are portrayed as a sort of clowns, won't spread any further. It's just not true!


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## Lantarion (Oct 12, 2002)

Yay for Meriadoc! 
Elgee, you really have a knack for misspelling names.. it's PIPPIN, got it?! 

Although I think Merry was smarter than Pippin, I wouldn't go as far as to say that Pip was stupid. He was young, but he had a quick mouth and endless sense of humour, and he was very curious about the world around him. He just lacked in common sense, that's all.


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## Mrs. Maggott (Oct 12, 2002)

Heavens! So many of you folk are so unforgiving and uncharitable in your assessment of others!

Neither Pippin nor Merry are "stupid". TROLLS are stupid! The two young hobbits are just that - young! They suffer from those terrible sins of youth, boundless enthusiasm, hopeless optimism and a very real lack of life experience. Why on earth should we expect them to behave as do all the older, wiser and more experienced folk with whom they become involved? Even Frodo - although he still appears to be their age - is a more mature 50 and probably wasn't too "immature" even when he was younger. Do not judge these two hobbits by their actions in the movie; Jackson used them as "comic relief" at least in the first film.

However, as immature as they are (or were), both Merry and Pippin exhibit GREAT courage in accompanying Frodo on his journey knowing that it might be a "one way" trip ending in disaster and death. (Alas, this is one aspect Mr. Jackson missed ENTIRELY in the movie. He made the involvement of Merry and Pippin mere mischance rather than a deliberate choice and that's too bad! It diminishes both characters.)

The two hobbits do a lot of "growing up" during the quest and return to the Shire as doughty warriors and obvious future leaders of the Shire. You cannot do something like that if you are stupid (as the old saying goes, "stupid is forever!"). Do not confuse ignorance and immaturity with stupidity; they are not the same.


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## Lantarion (Oct 12, 2002)

Bravo! Excellently put, Mrs. Maggott!


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## ILLOTRTM (Oct 12, 2002)

"stupid?"..... Not the right word. Foolish and Naive maybe, Pippin more than Merry, of course. However neither were stupid. I love Pippin, though! Don't get me wrong, I thnk some of the very best lines in the book were lines coming from Gandalf to Pippin


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## Meriadoc (Oct 12, 2002)

I don't really believe that either of them are stupid. They are just innocent and Pippin is rather clueless at times. But they aren't stupid.


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## Rasec (Oct 12, 2002)

Actually, they are the most intelligent characters in the book. Who agrees with me? LoL 

See u,
Cesar.


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## kohaku (Oct 12, 2002)

i put pippin, but "stupid" is not at all how i would describe him. as others have already noted, he is young, reckless, a bit foolish, but not stupid. it is a shame that he was portrayed in the movie as such an idiot, but i'm hoping it's meant to emphasize his maturation in the later films.


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## Merry (Oct 12, 2002)

I would agree that neither are stupid and their weaknesses must be put down to their youth and inexperience. I actually found Frodo was just as stupid at times so you cannot pick on just these two. Look at their characters by the end of the tale, both are grown in body and in maturity, they have experienced life and have come of age.

At least their clumsy stupid nature didn't harm them too seriously, in fact it was their cunning that allowed them to escape the Urak Hai.

But if you made me chose, I would say Pippin was the moron - obviously


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## HLGStrider (Oct 12, 2002)

HORRAY FOR DEFENSE OF PIPPEN WHO'S NAME I WILL SPELL ANY DARN WAY I PLEASE!!!


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## Snaga (Oct 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Mrs. Maggott _
> *Heavens! So many of you folk are so unforgiving and uncharitable in your assessment of others!
> 
> Neither Pippin nor Merry are "stupid". TROLLS are stupid! The two young hobbits are just that - young! They suffer from those terrible sins of youth, boundless enthusiasm, hopeless optimism ....*


 I was with you up to this point Mrs M. Trolls, yeah.... they're not so brainy, by and large. 

OK... but whats hopeless optimism???


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## Mrs. Maggott (Oct 13, 2002)

I meant by that particular phrase the sort of optimism of the very young (not all of them and probably more in my generation than in yours) which believes - in spite of all evidence to the contrary - that "everything is going to work out in the end". 

Alas, later generations, poisoned by drugs and violence and betrayed by so much of what once had been the support structures of the culture (family, religion, government, schools, the law etc.) may not really understand the sort of optimism that once was a very real part of youth. It is sad enough to have that bouyant state of mind depart when maturity reveals how unfair life really is, but it is even sadder to realize that so many young people today have never experienced it in the first place.

In any event, I hope that you now understand what I meant by "hopeless optimism" since in Tolkien's world, no doubt such a state of mind still existed among the young at least in sheltered places like The Shire.


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## HLGStrider (Oct 13, 2002)

Off topic, but I've been thinking that Lantarion, the great and holy spell check guy, is also a mod... 

Why don't you just follow me around editing my posts? It'd help you gain piece of mind....


he he he


just kidding...


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## aDaHe (Oct 13, 2002)

in the book i think that pippen is most definaitely an idoit
, but merry is quite the opposite. he as was said may not think things though, but he is also the person that put to gether the conserisy*(sp).
merry also had enough corrage to stab the black captian in the knee
while pippen only stabbed a troll and got ready to sink into death underneth him.


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## HLGStrider (Oct 13, 2002)

While certainly not the brightest star in the firmament, Pippin (notice, PippIn), is hardly worthy of round comdemnation... I mean he's the youngest, and I'd say he has his place in the halls of heros. He had the sense to go get Gandalf when Denethor blew his stack.


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## Ithrynluin (Oct 13, 2002)

I wouldn't say they are stupid,especially not about Meriadoc. Pippin is clumsy and silly and doesn't think before he speaks. So I vote for Pippin, but only concerning the first few chapters of the LOTR. At the end, they are both mature and competent hobbits. Yay for these two!


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## Snaga (Oct 13, 2002)

Mrs M, excuse my facetiousness!

But M&P's optimism was not 'hopeless' or misplaced at all. It was absolutely right...


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## Popqueen62 (Oct 13, 2002)

I don't think Pippin had any sense at all, at least Merry had a little bit. But i guess they were the comic relief in the books.


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## tom_bombadil (Oct 14, 2002)

Blantently Pippin. he is so stupid it makes me laugh!


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## Mrs. Maggott (Oct 14, 2002)

Some of those responding are confusing foolish, reckless and impulsive with stupid. Many intrinsically intelligent people do foolish, impulsive and reckless things. They are still, however, intelligent and able to act accordingly.

Pippin (and Merry) simply cannot BE "stupid". Their actions as the story progresses more than prove that.

The term "stupid" denotes a limited intelligence. Trolls are stupid and they are limited in their ability to respond to situations for that reason. Tolkien "itb" talks about the possibility of "cunning" trolls - which would be a great evil indeed.

The English language is not all that precise, but in this case it is. The question might be, which of the two hobbits is more foolish or impulsive or reckless or unthinking (and in that case it would probably be Pippin - who was also, however, more the more clever of the two), but it cannot be which is the more STUPID because neither of them were.


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by snaga1 _
> *The 'more stupid than Pippin' list...
> 
> 5. Boromir
> .*


I don't think so.Boromir is responsible for what he has done but.There's one big BUT.He does everything because of his people,because of Gondor.His people die protecting not only Gondor,but the whole ME and he wants to stop that as soon as possible,using the ring.I believe also that everybody would think the same things if he were at his place.He can be naive,just like Merry and Pippin,because he believes the ring would help his people,but nothing more.


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## Mrs. Maggott (Oct 16, 2002)

Certainly Boromir's view of the Ring is greatly influenced by the weakening condition of Gondor and he believes, at first, that the Ring would be a powerful weapon if it were to be wielded by a great warlord. However, at the Council he is advised that the Ring is far too powerful and treacherous to be used by ANYONE save its maker - and apparently in both the book and the film, he accepts the correction.

However, as time goes on in the Quest, there can be no doubt that the Ring works upon his ambition as well as his fear for his people - although by that point, there probably isn't much difference between the two. In the book, this personal desire for the Ring is demonstrated when Boromir begins to talk to and about himself as a great War Lord through his possession of the Ring (at the confrontation with Frodo in Parth Galen). True, he will be fighting for Gondor, but plainly, the matter has long since gone from what someone wielding the Ring can do to protect Gondor and what Boromir the Great would be able to do with the Ring of Power. 

At the time that Boromir attempts to wrest the Ring from Frodo, he is completely under its power. Gandalf tells Denethor this very thing when the latter says that his son would have returned "bearing a great gift (the Ring)". Gandalf bluntly replies that had that been the case, "...you would not have known your son." 

Boromir is hardly stupid, but he shows himself weaker than Aragorn (who has already been offered the Ring by Frodo and refused it) or Gandalf (who had also been offered the Ring) or Faramir (who refuses to try to take it from Frodo when the opportunity presents itself) or Galadriel (who refuses it freely offered) and even weaker than Frodo himself who only succumbs to the Ring at the last moment after years of possessing it. Still, it would be wrong to think that Boromir's fall was the result of stupidity because it was not. Many "smart" people had fallen under the spell of the Ring including Isildur and Saruman - so Boromir isn't in such bad company after all.


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *I wouldn't say they are stupid,especially not about Meriadoc. Pippin is clumsy and silly and doesn't think before he speaks. So I vote for Pippin, but only concerning the first few chapters of the LOTR. At the end, they are both mature and competent hobbits. Yay for these two! *


I can't believe I agree with you!It's a miracle .Seriously,Pippin and Merry become hobbits of a noble origin later,when they get more experienced.
I would like to add that I didn't mean Merry and Pippin from the movie,but Merry and Pippin from the book.They're quite different,don't you agree?


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## aDaHe (Oct 16, 2002)

in the movie M & P are made out to be a pair of young and idodic fools. 
they book how ever say that while young they are not without genuine thought.
the consprisey is a highlight of merrys in the first book and yes M&P both become among the great ones by the end

PS sorry about my spelling in my eariler post.


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## Pale King (Oct 18, 2002)

Nooooo! I didn’t vote on this poll because neither of them are “stupid”. That’s way too harsh. Both of them go on to achieve greatness, both of them achieve great deeds in battle and both of them are good and noble characters. All these posts about “stupid”, “no sense”, “idiots” and “morons” are waaay off the mark.


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## HLGStrider (Oct 18, 2002)

I think the majority of us are under the opinion that this poll is a bit harsh on them... to say the least.


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 19, 2002)

I didn't mean "moron", "idiot"or something like that.Stupid sounds more neutral so I used it.But my thoughts about M and P are absolutely positive!Just wanted to see who is .......


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## Finduilas (Oct 19, 2002)

I don't think they are stupid.Maybe a little bit clumsy.But they are funy.
Merry and Pippin are maybe the only characters who show a sense of humor in a period like that.
So we shouldn't blame them that they want to live complete.


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Finduilas _
> *I don't think they are stupid.Maybe a little bit clumsy.But they are funy.
> Merry and Pippin are maybe the only characters who show a sense of humor in a period like that.
> So we shouldn't blame them that they want to live complete. *


Who M and P do you have in mind,Tolkien's ot Peter Jackson's?


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## Finduilas (Oct 19, 2002)

Tolkien's,I guess! 
In fact there are many similarities with the book and one of them is maybe the characters of Merry,Pippin and Sam


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## HLGStrider (Oct 19, 2002)

Just a slight protest... I have read both Aragorn and Gandalf saying funny things... and I think it was intentional. Read the scene where Merry wakes up in the Return of the King... Aragorn always makes me laugh with his talk about the Herb guy and pipeweed...


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> *Just a slight protest... I have read both Aragorn and Gandalf saying funny things... and I think it was intentional. Read the scene where Merry wakes up in the Return of the King... Aragorn always makes me laugh with his talk about the Herb guy and pipeweed... *


Yes,you're right but if there are "champions of the funny things",no doubt M and P are "the champions"


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## Ascamaciliel (Oct 29, 2002)

i wouldn't call merry or pippin stupid, stupid is such a strong word. i would make them out to be more mischievous


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## *Lady Aragorn* (Jan 1, 2003)

i voted pippin. you can just tell!!! and he also makes a lot of mistakes like in Moria.


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## Finduilas (Jan 1, 2003)

Yes,stupid is really too strong,maybe childish(actually they were still children)


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## Turin (Jan 1, 2003)

Pippin is much stupider but he is my favorite character


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## Anira the Elf (Jan 1, 2003)

Pippin.

Need i say more??


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## omnipotent_elf (Jan 8, 2003)

> i wouldn't call merry or pippin stupid, stupid is such a strong word. i would make them out to be more mischievous



i agree with Ascamaciliel, i wouldnt call either stupid!


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## j0n4th4n (Jan 8, 2003)

everyone keeps saying the films made them look stupid, but i think only for Pippin they did that - if you pay attention youll notice all the 'gags' are made for Pip. Merry is not shown to be stupid at all.


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## klugiglugus (Jan 8, 2003)

In return of the king Pip is not Stupid he seems to get more serious as time goes on.


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## Saucy (Feb 18, 2003)

so what if they seemed a bit stupid!
Merry and Pippin where the humour relief in the books and in the movies! face it it wouldn't be the same without them! and has for wich is stupider!? i'd say neither they r stupid together
you would not find one neon pink sock with stripes without the other!


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## Wonko The Sane (Feb 20, 2003)

While in the movie Merry and Pippin often LOOK stupid they really aren't!

I mean...the movie makes even Gimli look stupid. But the point is that the two hobbits are NOT stupid!!

I mean...look what they did for Middle Earth! They became warriors...

It's just that they were young and careless at times.


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## Aulë (Feb 21, 2003)

Arrg!
I'm not silly!
It's Merry's fault!


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## Wonko The Sane (Feb 21, 2003)

I believe Merry would say the same about you.


And anyway you grew up a lot after all that business with Gondor.


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