# Was Gandalf right in deceiving Bilbo and the Dwarves about the Quest fo Erebor?



## Starflower (Oct 22, 2003)

here's a new thread for you Hobbit scholars out there. 
Gandal arrives in Hobbiton one sunny day in May, chats to BIlbo, who invites him to tea. Gandalf arrives, but so do 13 dwarves, who have been led to believe - by Gandalf no less - that they are going to a prearranged meeting with a professional burglar.
We all know what happened, but the question is :

*Was Gandalf right in deceiving Bilbo and the Dwarves about the Quest of Erebor? *


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## Ithrynluin (Oct 22, 2003)

Well, he didn't actually deceive them about the Quest of Erebor, he made Bilbo into a professional burglar, which he definitely was not, and that's where the real deception lay. Gandalf had to make that up for the Dwarves to buy the story and accept Bilbo to tag along, and the Dwarves were highly sceptic even then, since, quite frankly, Bilbo didn't show any traits of being a burglar, and he definitely didn't look like one (if there was a stereotype of how a Middle-Earth burglar should look). Also, Gandalf chose Bilbo because of a premonition he had, and he didn't necessarily understand it fully, but he followed it.


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## Niirewen (Oct 24, 2003)

I agree with ithrynluin, I believe Gandalf was right in "decieving the Dwarves." Like ithrynluin said, Gandalf had a strong premonition that a hobbit should go along with the Dwarves on their quest, and he knew the Dwarves wouldn't consider it if they really knew how un-burglarish (well, you get the point) Bilbo was. I believe there is a section in UT that touches on this topic. Let me see if I can't dig up a quote or two..

From The Quest of Erebor in UT (Gandalf is speaking about himself):


> Suddenly in my mind these three things came together: the great Dragon with his lust, and his keen hearing and scent; the sturdy heavy-booted Dwarves with their old burning grudge; and the quick, soft-footed Hobbit, sick at heart (I guessed) for a sight of the wide world.





> I knew in my heart Bilbo must go with him, or the whole quest would be a failure.


So you see, Gandalf really felt that Bilbo needed to go with the Dwarves, or the quest would fail. And Thorin was clearly suspicious of Bilbo actually being a burglar, so Gandalf was right in "decieving the Dwarves," because that was what it took to get them to accept Bilbo.


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## Red Istar (Oct 25, 2003)

Technically he _didn't_ decieve them, as Bilbo _did_ turn out to be one heck of a burglar.


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## jallan (Oct 31, 2003)

Also, Gandalf does seem to be very manipulative of others, even after he becomes Gandalf the White.

He is particularly concerned not to let Denethor know about Aragorn and his goals.

Denethor sees this, especially as he already knows much of it, and quite rightly calls Gandalf out for playing a game of his own.

Gandalf is tricksy.


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## Red Istar (Nov 1, 2003)

He _had_ to be... tricksy little wizard.


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## mr underhill (Nov 1, 2003)

I thought you were on about something else.. about how he made them tihnk they were going for treasure when he knew perfectly well what he was doing...


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## Glomund (Nov 3, 2003)

Gandalf did not decieve the dwarves in any significant way. He may have stretched the truth about Bilbo being a burglar, but thats it. The dwarves were planning to go after Smaug anyway, and asked Gandalfs help. He saw that helping them would also help him with some of his worries. He did not bother to tell them about these other things, but I don't consider it wrong. ANd Bilbo was also not decieved. Gandalf may have been a little rude to invite 13 Dwarves to Bilbos house, but he only gave Bilbo the opportunity to go on his adventure, Bilbo could have refused and Gandalf would not have forced him. As to Denethor, I always thought the reason G did not want Pippin to mention Aragorn was to avoid upheaval in the command structure of Gondor while a war was going on. If Denethor had lived, the issue might have come up after the siege, before the army left for the black gate. This is deceit, but deceit of omission, not lying. It may push the borders of manipulation, but with G's worries I don't blame him for not totally trusting Denethor with the full truth.


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## Ice Man (Nov 3, 2003)

Absolutely.
With all his wisdom and experience, he must have known that there would be no other way to convince Bilbo or the Dwarves, so he just did what he had to do.


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## kohaku (Nov 9, 2003)

I agree with everything said so far. Gandalf believed that Bilbo would be useful, but he had no way of proving that to the dwarves except to show them, during the adventure and not before.


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## omnipotent_elf (Nov 15, 2003)

The respect which the dwarves gave Bilbo is a direct respose of his ability to use the ring, not being a burgler. The dwarves began to think "very highly of him" after the spiders, and the escape from the wood elves, for without the ring, Bilbo would have had no chance against the spiders, let alone escaping the wood elves!

so was gandalf right : No!. Bilbo had shown no signs of being a burglur - NO
he was supposable a person who was so predictable that you knew what he was going to say before he said it. Respectable for hobbits, but ideal for a occupation of required resourcefullness, i think not. Gandalf should have been honest with the dwarves and bilbo, told of the premonition, and continued. 

this is just my 2 cents worth, so tear it to shreds if you want, but at least it is now a debate


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## kohaku (Nov 15, 2003)

Do you think the dwarves would have believed Gandalf if he merely said he had a feeling that Bilbo would be useful in some way? True, the word and foresight of Gandalf are not to be taken lightly, but dwarves are stubborn, and I think they would be less inclined to believe him if he had told them the real reason he chose Bilbo.


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## Saermegil (Nov 22, 2003)

Gandalf had to deceive the dwarves in order for them to take Bilbo with them, and therefore succeed in their mission, which was but a part of a bigger plan. Gandalf did really "lie" to them, though, he just twisted the truth a little bit. Bilbo did turn out be an excellent burglar. And besides, Gandalf never really said that Bilbo was a Burglar right then:



> "That's right," said Gandalf. "Let's have no more argument. I have chosen Mr Baggins and that ought to be enough for all of you. If I say that he is a Burglar, a Burglar he is, or will be when the time comes."


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## Red Istar (Nov 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Saermegil _
> *Gandalf had to deceive the dwarves in order for them to take Bilbo with them, and therefore succeed in their mission, which was but a part of a bigger plan. Gandalf did really "lie" to them, though, he just twisted the truth a little bit. Bilbo did turn out be an excellent burglar. And besides, Gandalf never really said that Bilbo was a Burglar right then: *



'zactly my point.


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## Eledhwen (Nov 29, 2003)

Gandalf wasn't the first to call Bilbo a burglar; but he went along with it because he was annoyed that the Dwarves should think that burgling would be the only way a creature like a Hobbit could come by such fine furnishings.

As for the quest itself, I agree with the majority here (maybe should have been a poll), that Gandalf didn't really deceive the Dwarves, though he was somewhat economical in explaining his own agenda. Thorin and Co. had already made up their minds to go. Gandalf just gave them a better plan than openly confronting the Dragon.


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## Illuvatar (Dec 30, 2003)

Gandalf was obviously right, not only in that the quest succeeded, but also in that otherwise, the ring might have been found by a goblin, not Bilbo, and middle-earth as a whole would have been lost. The dwarves, when lectured directly, obviously respected his superior judgement, and brought him along.


Side note:Another reason that they were looking for a burglar is merely superstitious. Gandalf mentioned it in "An Unexpected Party". They were afraid to have thirteen members in their party, and needed one more.


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