# Where did Saruman's spirit go?



## pohuist (May 23, 2002)

*Where did Saruman go*

In the book, when Wormtongue slits Saruman's throat, Saruman's spirit (I suppose) rises as a big white shadowy figure over his dead body and wavers towards the West. However, from the West the cold wind comes and blows him away. I interpret this as the West (Valinor)rejecting Saruman's spirit and not allowing him to come back. If so, where did he went?


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## LadyGaladriel (May 23, 2002)

I would suspect that his spirt afterr being regected by the west raimained harmlessly in ME or possibly went to hell!


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## Rangerdave (May 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by LadyGaladriel _
> *I would suspect that his spirt afterr being regected by the west raimained harmlessly in ME or possibly went to hell! *



This may seem odd, but I have recently come to feel that when Gandalf cast Saruman from the order of Istari and sundered his staff that he doomed Saruman to become a man in being as well as in form. As a mortal man he would be denied a place in the eternal west and where his spirit would go after death, the elves no not.

Tolkien was not forthcomming on his views of an afterlife for the men of Middle-Earth, but if there is a hell, Saruman has certainly earned a place therein. Perhaps his essance was left to the same fate as Sauron's; to wander as an impotent spirit of malevolence (sp?). Or possibly he drifted into the void to trouble Middle-Earth no longer.

Man, is that a bunch of purple prose or what?
RD


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## Elu Thingol (May 23, 2002)

> Posted by Rangerdave Or possibly he drifted into the void to trouble Middle-Earth no longer.



Hopefully he does not get off that easy, he deserves to rot for a long time.


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## SarumansTreason (May 23, 2002)

Tolkien was a Christian. Christians believe in repetence. Although Gandalf others this oppurtunity to Saruman to "repent", he chooses not to. However, it is possible, that Saruman was forgiven. Afterall, he did what anyone of you would have done. Who wouldn't seek the ultimate power if given the oppurtunity? I think all of us would have acted similar to him.


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## Gamil Zirak (May 24, 2002)

I'm pretty sure that Saruman (since he was a Maia) is in improsoned in the void with Sauron.


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## Lantarion (May 24, 2002)

Yeah, I think so too; with Sauron and Melkor, the two nastiest dudes of Middle-Earth! 
But before he went to the Void I believe he met Manwë (and *maybe* Ilúvatar himself, as He became more enamoured with M-E during the end of the Third Age, it seems), and that he chose not to let Saruman repent because he had so radically gone against the mission and code of the Istari.


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## pohuist (May 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rangerdave _
> *
> 
> This may seem odd, but I have recently come to feel that when Gandalf cast Saruman from the order of Istari and sundered his staff that he doomed Saruman to become a man in being as well as in form.RD *



I don't think Gandalf has such powers.

To All: If Saruman indeed goes to the Void what hapeensa to him after Turin kills Melkor?


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## Gil-Galad (May 25, 2002)

Maiar,like Gandalf and Saruman can't die.Only their bodies can.I think that Saruman was sent out of the rings of the world where Morgoth had been sent,too.


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## Elu Thingol (May 28, 2002)

Posted by SarumansTreason


> Afterall, he did what anyone of you would have done. Who wouldn't seek the ultimate power if given the oppurtunity? I think all of us would have acted similar to him.



I wouldn't have, sorry.


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## Ithrynluin (Jun 1, 2002)

You say you wouldn't but if it came down to it, how would you choose? 
Saruman,a Maia, couldn't fight the temptation of the ring, let alone a mortal man (Aragorn being a lonely exception).

And by the way, i think that Saruman wasn't cast into the void (he didn't really deserve it did he - compared to Melko and Sauron), his spirit was left to wonder the world until some indefinite time when he would be allowed to return to Valinor.


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## Theoden (Jun 1, 2002)

I think he went to Hell. 
Tolkien was a Christian, and in the Christian faith, there is a Heaven and a Hell. And there are no in-betweens. SO I think out of Tolkiens faith, he wrote about the fate of Sauruman's soul. I think he went to hell.


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## DRavisher (Jun 1, 2002)

I agree with ithrynluin on this one. Saruman's actions weren't as bad as those of the dark lords.


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## Gamil Zirak (Jun 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *And by the way, i think that Saruman wasn't cast into the void (he didn't really deserve it did he - compared to Melko and Sauron), his spirit was left to wonder the world until some indefinite time when he would be allowed to return to Valinor. *


I've read somewhere on this forum (or maybe another one like it) that Saruman was placed into the void. I wasn't just making that up (at least I don't think I was).


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## Khamul (Jun 1, 2002)

I have to agree with the "void theory." He threw done his quest, and joined evil and it's purpose of destroying and conquering that which is good. He lost everything, and became but a mere glimpse of what he should have been. 

Fear leads to....(whatever Yoda said in Ep.1)


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## Samwise_hero (Jun 1, 2002)

I dunno where he went i never actually put that much thought into it. But i'm sure wherever he was exiled to he would be near Sauron.


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## HLGStrider (Jun 2, 2002)

Who would make one lousy roommate...

I don't think Middle Earth has a Hell because there is never set out a set of guidelines to avoid it. No where was it said what would be the Middle Earth equivalent of "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ." No where are there a set of standards such as thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not rebel against the Valar. Nowhere is there anything like that. So, what we are left with in Middle Earth Theology is the common sense of good and evil... but no clean cut sense of where good has gone far enough to reach Heaven or Evil has gone too far and must go to Hell. I would have to conclude that Middle Earth does not have a Hell for Humans, just a void for serious offenders of the immortal sort. 

I like the wandering around Middle Earth idea best for Sauramen because it is an interesting picture, a fitting punishment, and he did get scattered by the wind. 

I didn't know that was what happened to Sauron. I'd always thought he was permanently "unmade" with the ring, meaning condemned to a virtual non-existance. I suppose the void makes sense.

I can just see Melkor and Sauron in a little void prison cell playing checkers and cheeting and arguing over who gets the top bunk for the night...


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## Elu Thingol (Jun 13, 2002)

> _Posted by ithrynluin_
> You say you wouldn't but if it came down to it, how would you choose?
> Saruman,a Maia, couldn't fight the temptation of the ring, let alone a mortal man (Aragorn being a lonely exception).



WHAT?

There are many characters in middle earth who know of the rings power and yet do not openly seek it because they don't want ultimate power.

I'll tell you how I'd choose

ithrynluin: Elu go seek the one ring and take ultimate power

Elu: no

ithrynluin: don't you want ultimate power, everyone wants ultimate power!

Elu: Let me think about that one for a sec, *no*!



> Do not be decieved: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. *The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction*; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. (Galatians 6:7,8 NIV)


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