# Turgon & Finrod's dreams



## Confusticated (Aug 25, 2003)

Was it perhaps a small error on the parts of Finrod and Turgon that they each believed Ulmo had sent a message to him alone and therefore said nothing to the other?


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## Arvedui (Aug 25, 2003)

Perhaps. At least that is how I viewed it the first couple of times I read the story. But later I have began to think that there might be a reason for both of them to think so, meaning that the visions given to them in their dreams, were such that they really felt that they were supposed to keep it to themselves.

I have no firm quote or other evidence to support this, but my feminine intuition tells me that I am right. Ulmo indeed wanted both of them to keep it to himself. 

Or I could be way wrong, but I don't think so.


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## Bucky (Aug 25, 2003)

It never dawned on me that maybe the were supposed to tell one another.

I certainly think Ulmo could've told them that before too long considering that he had no problem appearing face to face in Nevrast to give Turgon the gear to fit Tour ar a later date & then appeasr to Tour after he put that gear on.

My assumption was always that Ulmo wanted both Elves to have a seperate secret refuge.


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## baragund (Aug 25, 2003)

In hindsight, it could be seen as an error by Turgon and Finrod not to share their dreams of Ulmo with each other (or with others for that matter). It was a missed opportunity to collaborate and plan on how best to fulfill Ulmo's wishes. 

I get the impression that both of them kept the dream to themselves because they were a little self-conscious about it. It was good times for the Elvish peoples of Middle Earth. They just held the big reunion festival of Mereth Aderthad and everyone was feeling great. Also, the siege of Angband was in full swing and Morgoth appeared to be contained. Perhaps they did not want to draw the scorn of the other lords by coming across as a doomsayer.


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## YayGollum (Aug 25, 2003)

I don't see why someone would think that it was a bad thing for them to not tell each other about their dreamses. Things turned out pretty well, as far as I know. Until things started to fall apart. oh well. If they told each other (against the feelings about not doing that), things would have turned out a lot differently. I don't mind the way that it turned out.


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## Arvedui (Aug 26, 2003)

Hindsight is always 20/20, and it could probably have been a good idea to coordinate plans and efforts.

But there is also the need for secrecy, and a secret is never a secret as long as two persons know about it.

Also, there is more said about their dreams than what is said in the opening post:


> But Ulmo coming up the river laid a deep sleep on them and heavy dreams; and the trouble of the dreams remained after they awoke, but neither said aught to the other, for their memory was not clear, and each believed that Ulmo had sent a message to him alone. But unquiet was upon them ever after, and doubt of what should befall, and they wandered often alone in untrodden lands, seeking far and wide for places of hidden strength; for it seemed to each that he was bidden to prepare for a day of evil, and to establish a retreat, lest Morgoth should burst from Angband and overthrow the armies of the North.


Their memory was not clear.
Each believed that Ulmo had sent a message to him alone.
And as baragund said: they probably didn't want to come across as doomsayers.

Again: I could of course be wrong.


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## Bucky (Aug 26, 2003)

Another point is that they were both the Lord of a seperate people.

While these 2 lords are presented in as favorable light as any of the 'Sons Of Finwe', I don't see a tremendous amount of those Sons wanting to share or relinquish power.

Having a realm together would've required one to serve the other.


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## Arvedui (Aug 27, 2003)

I don't see this question as if they were to find a place to dwell together, but if they should have told eachother of their dream and the message from Ulmo.


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## Niniel (Aug 27, 2003)

I think Ulmo didn't want them to tell each other of their dreams, if he wanted them to speak about it he would have made the dreams clearer. Maybe this was a mistake, although I dobn;t see why a Vala would make such an obvious mistake since it was very clear that they were not supposed to talk about it. Maybe he didn't want them to speak about it, because the less people knew about the secret realms, the less people could speak about them and betray them.


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## Bucky (Aug 27, 2003)

Exactly, Niniel.

Since it all worked out in the end, I guess Ulmo did OK.

Of course, alot of Elves died on the way, including all the leaders of the rebellion against the Valar's authority except Galadriel & Maglor (and he might as well have died). But, that speaks into the law of sowing & reaping & accountability for one's actions, both priniples we know Tolkien believed in.
My point is that the Valar certainly could've saved the day sooner, but they left the Noldor to 'take their medicine'.


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## Confusticated (Apr 17, 2005)

Its been so long I forgot what thoughts I had behind this question, but I suspect something like Baragund:



> In hindsight, it could be seen as an error by Turgon and Finrod not to share their dreams of Ulmo with each other (or with others for that matter). It was a missed opportunity to collaborate and plan on how best to fulfill Ulmo's wishes.



But in the end, I'll bet Ulmo knew what he was doing. When didn't he?

I think had it been Ulmo's will that the two tell eachother, he would have given some indication of it in the dream, but who can be sure?

New opinions?


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## YayGollum (Apr 17, 2005)

Were you just really bored lately, lady? Finding all of these old topics. oh well. Let me see here. New opinions? No, not from me. The two had some pretty nice setups before they were destroyed. It was fun while it lasted. It made for some good pictures by Vaire. Also, Ulmo is annoying. Nobody was messing with the elves. He was bored. He said ---> "Hm. I can do this, which, with my limited grasp of foresight, I happen to know will make for some good stories! Why not? I shall go ahead and talk to these dudes."


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## Alcuin (Apr 18, 2005)

Why should these two, Turgon and Finrod, not tell one another what they dreamed? They each believed that he alone had received a message from Ulmo, true, and it is best not to bespeak one’s secrets to many others, true; but each led a great people into hiding, and those folk certainly knew the secret.

Nargothrond remained secret because of the Guarded Plain, Talath Dirnen, but fell because of Turin’s bridge across the Narog, which gave access to the city to Glaurung. Its position was not secret to Morgoth when it fell, of course, but it could have been defended longer without the bridge. Gelmir and Arminas were sent by Círdan to warn Orodreth to tear down the bridge, but Turin gainsaid them in his pride, to his own ruin and that of his true love, Finduilas. But at this point in the story, I think we can safely assume that the location of Nargothrond had been determined by the Enemy.

Gondolin was secret until Maglor revealed its location out of lust for Idril as much as out of fear of Morgoth. Turgon wisely did not permit those who entered to leave it, though he made an exception for Aredhel his sister, to grievous end.

But I don’t believe that gets us any closer to why these two did not speak to one another about their dreams. Perhaps as Bucky suggests, they were each the leader of different groups or factions of the Noldor. From “Quendi and Eldar” in _The War of the Jewels_:


> Indeed the Teleri on their side asserted that most of the Ñoldor in Aman itself were in heart Avari, and returned to Middle-earth when they discovered their mistake; they needed room to quarrel in.


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## Thorondor_ (May 16, 2005)

I believe that having two separate secret locations - whose inhabitants knew nothing of the other - is a safe way to hide from the enemy. Secondly, no one really knows if Ulmo hadn't actually told them about collaborating. Just like humans, these two elves simply didn't understand the Lord of the waters very well.


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## Cúthalion (Jun 1, 2005)

Nice thread...

I'd have to agree with Niniel here:


> I think Ulmo didn't want them to tell each other of their dreams, if he wanted them to speak about it he would have made the dreams clearer.


 Though I would like to add that if Ulmo wanted them to work together, wouldn't he have shown himself to them like he did later to Tuor? The text clearly states that Ulmo was there, he hadn't sent the dream from afar: "But Ulmo coming up the river laid a deep sleep on them...". There must be a reason why Ulmo came to them in their dreams instead of in person.


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## Confusticated (Sep 17, 2010)

"Things turned out pretty well, as far as I know. Until things started to fall apart. oh well. " Good one Yay.:*D

"Were you just really bored lately, lady? Finding all of these old topics. oh well."
More of an excess of enthusiasm needing spent, and a secondary wish for activity to pick up. AT least that is why I did it again last night!!:*D


:*D


Note to self: Bump this thread in a year or two... for third time.:*)


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