# The Rejection of The Secondborn?



## Ancalagon (Jul 17, 2002)

> But this condition Ilúvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs. And therefore they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.



_Ainulindale, The Silmarillion_ 

I hereby contend that the ruling powers of Arda rejected Men and considered them least of the creations of Eru. All, save Ulmo, were so enamoured by The Firstborn that they failed to provide for the coming of Men, nor did they protect, teach or guide them. In actual fact the only ones who made any effort in aiding this new race were the very ones the Valar had cursed, this in turn was a double-edged sword for Men. For this reason, I also say that they shirked the condition Iluvatar made, prior to their descent into Arda.

Do you support the actions of the Valar? Do you consider the Valar to have have rejected The Secondborn? Did the Valar give Elves preferential treatment over Men? Did Aule care less for Men than he did for Dwarves and those Elves whom he taught?

The floor is yours.............!


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## Legolas_lover12 (Jul 17, 2002)

well, the only thing the valar ever did for men was to make numenor. and that was just because they helped them in a war. but they came to ME and asked the elves to come to aman. and the elves didn't do anything. and i have always got a "we're better than you are!!!" attitude from (most of) the elves and the valar. i think the elves just thought they were better than men. which they kinda were. depends on how u look at it. but at least most of the men didn't have that "i'm better than you are" attitude. that's just my opinion, elves are stuck up. for the most part.


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## ¤-Elessar-¤ (Jul 17, 2002)

But each race had their own gifts, Elves had eternal life, and men had the gift of death. And only the deathless could live in the undying lands, I beleive that was part of Ilutivar's law, that the mortal shall not be immortal.

And, I beleive that the Valar would have helped man, but they were born under the shadow of Morgoth, and accepted him as lord. There was little that they could do for them. It would be like trying to save the orcs. Most men were people of Morgoth, and hated the light with his hate. And then you have to take into account that Ilutivar was creator of all. He created Mekor, and Melkor in turn created evil. I think Ilutivar knew what he was doing the whole time. He could perceive the thoughts of his children, and saw Melkors part in the song. He knew that Morgoth would come, and what he would do.


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## Camille (Jul 17, 2002)

Ah!!! we are debating in another place and we were asked to argue exactly what you have pointed, my opinion is that men were not treated as fairly as the elves, there were no war for their sake, they were left out there on ME with Morgoth around, and for Numenor they were baned by the valar and they "did not fully undestood why" so they became angry and desire inmortal life, the valar sent messengers only when the hearts of the numenoreans were all corrupted, they did not act on time.
Poor men...


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## Rúmil (Jul 17, 2002)

Yes, it would be hard to say Men were treated as well as Elves... One mightr give the Valar some extenuating circumtances, though: Ulmo talked to them trough the waters:


> Ulmo nonetheless took thought for them aiding the counsel and will of Manwë; and his messages came often to them by stream and flood. But they have not skill in such matters, and still less had they in those days before they had mingled with the Elves. Therefore they loved the waters, and their hearts were stirred, but they understood not the messages.


 , they had much obn their mind at the time, they didn't want to endager the situation...
No, they definitely favoured Elves. No fair.


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## Gil-Galad (Jul 17, 2002)

I think that Valar supported elves more than men in way.I don't mean that elves were immortal but that they were allowed to reach Valinor and live there.At the same time people lived in Arda and ME and their lives were really very hard.That's why I think that elves had some more preferences.
On the other side people were taught to manage,to continue the endless searching of full happiness.In fact ME was made for them,not for elves,but people had to learn how to live how to manage with enemies,to fight for their right to live in ME.
About Aule i do thing that he cared less for people than dwarves.Let's think:Would someone care more than something which he hasn't created than something he has created?


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## Tyaronumen (Jul 25, 2002)

Well, the nature of Men is different than that of the Quendi, so why should the Valar have treated them in the same way? 

Indeed, a certain perspective would hold that the Valar *should* be less concerned with Men than with the Quendi. 

After all, like the Valar, the Quendi are tied to the world until it is ended, while the fate of Men is to stop but briefly upon these shores before they go to some other fate that only Iluvatar determines.

As such, I can see how it might be hard to relate to the Atani from the perspective of the Valar or the Quendi... I can picture a Quendi's opinion of the matter now:

"While we are bound to this world, forced to endure it's changing and waning, you men are here for but a wink of an eye, and then are gone."

Does a train station conductor lend more obvious concern to his/her employees with whom (s)he has worked for many long ages, or does (s)he lend more obvious concern to the passenger, who (s)he sees but once, and whose time spent in the station is but brief?

Of course, those who are just passing through may feel a bit miffed that the conductor didn't shower THEM with personal affection and love -- but hey, too bad! As long as the trains run on time. 

Besides, I also get the impression from the books that the Valar didn't bring the Atani over to the Blessed Realm partially because of their "failed" experiment with the Quendi. Remember, from when the Noldor fled Valinor to when the Atani awoke was a relatively brief span of time, and all of the terrible events surrounding Ungoliant, the Trees, the Wells of Varda, the Kin-slaying, etc. were very much in the fore-front of the Valar's thought... So I believe that the Valar realized that their handling of the Quendi was not necessarily the best handling, but that they might also have 'over-reacted' in a sense by not helping mortal men more.


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## Tyaronumen (Jul 25, 2002)

Stop feeling sorry for yourselves! (Damned humans!)


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## ¤-Elessar-¤ (Jul 25, 2002)

good points, Tyaronumen. Very good points...


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## Ancalagon (Jul 25, 2002)

> After all, like the Valar, the Quendi are tied to the world until it is ended, while the fate of Men is to stop but briefly upon these shores before they go to some other fate that only Iluvatar determines.



Irrespective, they are all The Children of Iluvatar and therefore entitled to the same succour and security of the Ruling Powers of Arda. The Valar have absolutely no right to distingusih between these Children, whom they were pre-ordained to protect, nourish and advance. On behalf of the race of Men, they failed miserably.



> "While we are bound to this world, forced to endure it's changing and waning, you men are here for but a wink of an eye, and then are gone."



Yet Men are charged with the continued populating of Arda. Even in their short lives they were destined for a life of hardship and toil in the hope of trying to secure a better life for their families for generations thereafter. Whereas the Quendi could sit back and watch the fruits of their labour take shape, or even simply exist, The Atani were ever forced to work until death and never able to attain even an ounce of that which the Quendi enjoyed. In terms of knowledge the were instantly disadvantaged over their Elven counterparts. The journey of time empowered them over Men, and The Valar encouraged it. Does this make immortality a gift over the flickering flame of Mans life; quite possibly so, for no-one knows the fate of Men ofter death, irrespective of speculation.



> So I believe that the Valar realized that their handling of the Quendi was not necessarily the best handling, but that they might also have 'over-reacted' in a sense by not helping mortal men more.



I'll accept this comment on the strength of it's own wisdom. Yet, you sum up entirely the plight of the race of Men by saying 'not helping mortal men more.' The difficulty is that they did not actually help mortal man to adapt to the shambles they had left Middle-Earth to become during the rampage of Morgoth. They ignored the strife of Men because of the indignity over the incidents with the Noldor. Yet they had spolt the Noldor so much that they in turn mostly ignored the existence of Men or forced them to live on the borders of their land, as thralls without shackles. 

There is no doubt the treatment of Men is shameful by the Valar, too little too late in the shape of The Istari, whom save Gandalf, exploited Men or ignored them.


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## Maedhros (Jul 25, 2002)

> There is no doubt the treatment of Men is shameful by the Valar, too little too late in the shape of The Istari, whom save Gandalf, exploited Men or ignored them.


Wow, Anc. I agree 100% with you.


> Yet, you sum up entirely the plight of the race of Men by saying 'not helping mortal men more.' The difficulty is that they did not actually help mortal man to adapt to the shambles they had left Middle-Earth to become during the rampage of Morgoth.


You're right here too. The funny thing that in the beginning when Men arrived at ME, they were being helped by Eru himself. It's in Morgoth's Ring, but with the influence of Sauron, they eventually turned away from Eru and we all know what happened next.
The Valar had made mistake after mistake. Shame on them.


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## Tyaronumen (Jul 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ancalagon _
> *
> 
> Irrespective, they are all The Children of Iluvatar and therefore entitled to the same succour and security of the Ruling Powers of Arda. The Valar have absolutely no right to distingusih between these Children, whom they were pre-ordained to protect, nourish and advance. On behalf of the race of Men, they failed miserably.*



Hmmm -- you know Anc, I am just not sure that I agree that the Atani ARE entitled to the same succour and security as the Quendi. Basically, while the Quendi and Atani are both Children of Iluvatar, they are also quite different (not 'apples and oranges' different, since they can breed, and share many similarities... but still very different in terms of actual nature), and I believe that the needs of their peoples were not necessarily the same.

I guess that I think that your first paragraph above reveals quite a bit of egalitarianism -- egalitarianism that may or may not be appropriate in this context. After all, in the real world, do we REALLY treat each of our children equally? Or do we try to treat them each as individuals and give each individual what they need/desire/thrive on, regardless of whether it is strictly -equal-?

And is it *really* true that the Valar have no right to distinguish between the Children? Theyare not (and should NOT be) constrained by any human concepts of democracy or egalitarianism... and our current conceptions of what these ideas mean only *truly* work in the framework of a single race -- humanity. 

If you start throwing in creatures with fundamental differences (such as some being 'immortal', others 'mortal'), you really have to challenge our current human concepts of egalitarianism, because that which is 'moral' or 'right' *WILL* be different between these races with such fundamental differences, and it really is exceedingly difficult for one race, operating under it's natural conditions and natural thought processes, to evaluate what is 'right' for another race that is likewise operating under it's natural conditions and natural thought processes -- which happen to be quite different.

I'm just not so certain that they failed miserably with the race of men. What did the Atani who they helped gain? Sure they gained long life, and blessings, etc., etc. But what does this *really* mean in Iluvatar's plan of Ea? We can't say what happens to the Atani, but we can say that to the final fate of one of the Atani, whether he or she lived 50 years or 500 was a relatively small difference when compared to the lifespan of the Quendi. As such, to the Quendi, with their long span, the gifts of the Valar to the Dunedain would in actuality have seemed nice -- but not significant. To the Dunedain, without the ability to perceive beyond the walls of Death, these gifts are immeasureable important -- but increasingly inadequate as the gifts are taken for granted.

So the Numenoreans *did* receive gifts from the Valar -- but similarly to the Noldor, they grew to lack appreciation for these gifts (and far more swiftly than the Noldor did, I might note, if you agree with the generally accepted notion that the Years of the Trees were much longer than the Years of the Sun) with terrible consequences.

It is, thus, difficult to believe that the aid given to the Dunedain by the Valar left the Dunedain *as a whole* in any *real* better position than their counterparts in Middle-Earth. Certainly, for several generations, the Dunedain were in a better situation and were favoured by the Valar -- just as the Noldor were (again, for a longer time). And certainly, during this time, the other Atani were left to suffer in the darkness -- just as the Avari were left to their own devices when they refused the summons of the Valar.

I guess what I'm saying is that no matter what the Valar did, their actions could be perceived to have been inadequate...

Hell, it seems to me quite plain that only those who had suffered in the darkness and resisted it would be able to appreciate the gifts of the Valar -- but that once their descendants began to take these gifts for granted, and forget the evil that their ancestors struggled against, that this evil begins to "take shape and grow again" (to coin a phrase ).

Hmmm. 






> *Yet Men are charged with the continued populating of Arda. Even in their short lives they were destined for a life of hardship and toil in the hope of trying to secure a better life for their families for generations thereafter. Whereas the Quendi could sit back and watch the fruits of their labour take shape, or even simply exist, The Atani were ever forced to work until death and never able to attain even an ounce of that which the Quendi enjoyed. In terms of knowledge the were instantly disadvantaged over their Elven counterparts. The journey of time empowered them over Men, and The Valar encouraged it. Does this make immortality a gift over the flickering flame of Mans life; quite possibly so, for no-one knows the fate of Men ofter death, irrespective of speculation.*



My friend, even in our MODERN world, there are those Atani who take each moment as it comes, and some of them are REALLY at peace with their lives, as brief and difficult as they are. This is more of a decision to accept rain when it is raining, drought when drought occurs, etc. than any sort of religious revelation, etc. (There are an AWFUL lot of people in this world who want sun when it is raining, warmth when it is snowing, snow when it is balmy, money when they are poor, less responsibilities when they are rich, etc.... when they eat, they are worried about work, when they are trying to sleep, they are thinking of food, etc... it's all a mind state decision!)

Compared to the Quendi, the Atani could be said to be 'disadvantaged', but I disagree with that notion. Is a chimpanzee inherently disadvantaged to a human being? Well, we humans live longer, are more complex intellectually (in general ), have more knowledge, can create works of great beauty, technology, and art, etc...... but that doesn't mean that the chimpanzee is disadvantaged... not at all.

Actually, the chimpanzee who appreciates his life, as simple and hard is it may be, has a tremendous advantage of the human being, whose life is complex and wonderful . . . and sadly unappreciated.

I would say that the lives of Theoden, Aragorn, or even a Hama the Gatekeeper, were not less rich and less appreciated than the long years of Finrod Felagund or Galadriel, even while the order of knowledge, beauty, and grace were obviously less.

Meanwhile, you ask if immortality could be considered a gift, since the fate of men is not known to us...

NO!!! A MILLION TIMES NO!! Imagine -- living forever, waning, thousands upon countless thousands of years passing . . . knowing your 'final fate' in the Halls of Ea... if you can imagine this, then you would know that to the immortal, or nearly immortal, a long life is NOT a boon -- if anything it is a burden.

And to not know? To NOT KNOW YOUR FINAL FATE?!?!?!? AHh-h-h-h-h-h, you will be absolutely unable to convince me that this is not the MOST desirable of outcomes for ALL of us -- whether in Arda or here on Earth! The delight of final uncertainty is really a wonderous thing...

But only from the perspective that this life is just a way station between two points -- neither which *can be* known or appreciated. To me, this adds a lot of flavour to each moment of my life... hell, I could be crushed in the next moment (*knocks on wood*), and I have NO IDEA what is going to happen when I die (or when I'm alive for that matter), so that makes it *really* relevant to me to perform each act to it's best as much as I can!

I don't really feel that there is any need to speculate -- it seems obvious to me that living forever is a far worse fate than dying, even if death is... extremely final. There is nothing more dreary than the idea of simply going on and on and on.

That's a Quendi perspective, I'm -trying- (perhaps failing?) to represent...





> *I'll accept this comment on the strength of it's own wisdom. Yet, you sum up entirely the plight of the race of Men by saying 'not helping mortal men more.' The difficulty is that they did not actually help mortal man to adapt to the shambles they had left Middle-Earth to become during the rampage of Morgoth. They ignored the strife of Men because of the indignity over the incidents with the Noldor. Yet they had spolt the Noldor so much that they in turn mostly ignored the existence of Men or forced them to live on the borders of their land, as thralls without shackles.
> 
> There is no doubt the treatment of Men is shameful by the Valar, too little too late in the shape of The Istari, whom save Gandalf, exploited Men or ignored them. *



Meaning that you feel that the rest of my post was filled with foolishness?!?! 

My personal thought is that the Valar should never have removed the Quendi to Valinor in the first place, shouldn't have created Numenor, and shouldn't have had much to do with the Children other than to kick the ever-loving crap out of Morgoth ASAP and in all instances...

Trying to deny the Quendi and the Atani the "gifts of Morgoth" created a hell of a lot more problems that it solved, IMHO. The Valar didn't spend enough of their early history striving for a -balance-, and tried to eliminate Morgoth's influence -- obviously (and thankfully) failing.

Absolutely necessary, is that Morgoth bloke. That's why Iluvatar created him, and imbued him with such nature. I always remember that without Morgoth, there would have been no snow, no ice (thus, no frosty cold beer! AAGH)... these things are integral to our world... and so is Morgoth's influence.


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## Tyaronumen (Jul 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Maedhros _
> *
> The Valar had made mistake after mistake. Shame on them. *




Yes, let's just criticize the terrible, awful Valar, who, after all, merely crafted Arda from conception and gave the other Children a perch to land on in the first place.  



Seriously, c'mon, give the Valar a break. Without them, there isn't any world in the first place. You don't like the Valar because they weren't busy bussing the bums of the Atani, and that's a legitimate point of view, but at least let's see it for what it is.


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## aragil (Jul 26, 2002)

Just some notes to tie in the 'Redemption' thread on the LotR forum.

Firstly- the Valar are capable of mistakes- good for them. All for the greater good, at least that's what Eru implies.

Secondly- I think Men have the potential to do better on their own. Looking at the Redemption thread, men as a race fall a lot, but they also manage to redeem themselves a lot. The fact that they do redeem themselves is made all the more significant (IMO) because they've done it without the Valar 'bussing their bums' (to borrow a coined phrase). I for one wouldn't have been as impressed if Manwe popped in and scolded Boromir after the Amon Hen incident- Boromir had to look within himself, realize what he'd done, and then make the decision to come back and do something Heroic like try and save two Hobbits from 200+ Orcs. Men are given a great gift by the Valar- complete freedom of thought. For that matter, one of my favorite parts of the Silmarillion is when Bor and his sons remain true to Maedhros, while Ulfang and co. are betraying Feanor's other sons. Bor had had very little exposure to the Eldar (and hence the Valar), yet when it mattered the most he and his sons made the 'right' decision, and they made it with no outside help.
Self-determination beats studying in Valinor, at least in my book.


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## Tyaronumen (Jul 26, 2002)

Here here! That's why I don't think that the Valar should have helped the Quendi either.


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## Camille (Jul 26, 2002)

I think the Valar made mistakes indeed!, but was a mistake for men or for elves? I mean, they came to the elves, but not to men (that was unfair totally) but in third age, the istari came, and they were commanded to came in disguise!, and there is some quote that said because of the mistakes (Valar's) of the past????
What that supposed to mean?
PD, nice avatar Ancalagon: the dancing I mean amazing Spider man!


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## Maedhros (Jul 27, 2002)

> Basically, while the Quendi and Atani are both Children of Iluvatar, they are also quite different (not 'apples and oranges' different, since they can breed, and share many similarities... but still very different in terms of actual nature), and I believe that the needs of their peoples were not necessarily the same.


You´re right. They are not the same, but the Valar knew that Melkor was evil and that he could corrupt them and what did they do. Nothing. I mean that is very unfair. At least they could move the out of the sphere of his influence.


> Without them, there isn't any world in the first place. You don't like the Valar because they weren't busy bussing the bums of the Atani, and that's a legitimate point of view, but at least let's see it for what it is.


Without Eru there´s no world also. But let´s put the blame where it belongs. It belongs with Manwë. He as the leader of the Valar is the one to blame.
From Morgoth´s Ring: 'The Converse of Manwë and Eru'


> There were many such fëar of Elves who had died in Middle-earth gathered in the Halls of Mandos, but it was not until the death of Míriel in Aman that Manwë appealed directly to Eru for counsel. Eru 'accepted and ratified the position' - though making it plain to Manwë that the Valar should have contested Melkor's domination of Middle-earth far earlier


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## Gil-Galad (Jul 27, 2002)

I agree with Aragil,Valar really did some mistakes,everybody does.But I think they give amost the same chance to men and elves.The kind of their help was different.It depends on everybody's view.


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## Maedhros (Jul 27, 2002)

> But I think they give amost the same chance to men and elves.


Yep, in the beginning they helped men by leaving them under the influence of Melkor.
Great help indeed.


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## aragil (Jul 27, 2002)

As long as Maedhros is quoting Morgoth's Ring, I thought I might recommend the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth chapter as being a good read in light of this thread. Sorry, it's 63 pages long, so I can't quote it, but it discusses (at length) the fundamental differences between Men and Elves (from two different viewpoints- Andreth is a wise woman ~First Age 450, and I think we all know who Finrod is). The story also hints at possible damage done to the secondborn by Morgoth, although this is speculative on the part of Men.


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## Helena (Jul 28, 2002)

Didn't it say in the beginning of Silmarillion that Men were free to make their own fate, to create their own destiny? That is why I think the Valar didn't help them, why should they? In other words, I agree with Aragil .


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## Maedhros (Jul 28, 2002)

> Didn't it say in the beginning of Silmarillion that Men were free to make their own fate, to create their own destiny?


Couldn't they have done that as well far away from the influence of Melkor?


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## Ceorl (Jul 28, 2002)

Ok first of all it must be noted that the doom of men was not just that they left the world when they died. The other part of the doom is that they are free from the restrictions of the song and have a power to direct their own course and destiny.

Due to this none of the Valar (not even Mandos who remembers all of the Song) knew when or where the Atani would awaken. Due to this they had no knowledge of when to go to war against Morgoth on the behalf of the Atani. 

Another problem of Valar intervention is that any aide given to the Edain would also help the Noldor who they had exiled. This put them in a difficult position. However I am pretty sure that the Valar were still watching all that transpired in ME. 

After all due to the second part of the Doom of Men, it was actually the Elves that needed defending and not the Men. The Elves were the most vulnerable as they were not able to shape their own course in the history of Arda.


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## Ancalagon (Jul 28, 2002)

It kills me to say this, but Maedhros and I will have to back each other up in every aspect of this debate, because we both feel exactly the same with this subject!


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## Maedhros (Jul 28, 2002)

> It kills me to say this, but Maedhros and I will have to back each other up in every aspect of this debate, because we both feel exactly the same with this subject!


Ha. That's life I guess.  
From Morgoth's Ring: ATHRABETH FINROD AH ANDRETH


> 'Then are you content here?' said Finrod.
> 'Content?' said Andreth. 'No heart of Man is content. All passing and dying is a grief to it; but if the withering is less soon then that is some amendment, a little lifting of the Shadow.'
> 'What mean you by that?' said Finrod.
> 'Surely you know well!' said Andreth. 'The darkness that is now confined to the North, but once'; and here she paused and her eyes darkled, as if her mind were gone back into black years best forgot. 'But once lay upon all Middle-earth, while ye dwelt in your bliss.'


I wonder what great evil could have been postponed or reduced had the Valar at least did something to move Men a little from the influence of Melkor.


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## Grond (Jul 28, 2002)

What is interesting is that had the Valar truly succeeded in their intentions, there would not have been a single Elf left on Middle-earth. Every one of the race of the Quendi would/could have migrated to Valinor and living in eternal bliss forever... never fearing injury or death. 

The poor second borns would have been left all alone on Middle-earth with the poor unborns (dwarves) to fight Melkor for the domination of Arda. 

I have a theory. Only Melkor and Ulmo were given the information with which to deal with man. Remember that each of the Ainur was given a specific gift. Manwe the heavens, Ulmo the seas, Aule the earth, yada yada yada. It appears that the only two of the Valar with any 'sense' where man is concerned were Ulmo and Melkor. Orome and Manwe seem to be totally consumed with the Quendi. Ancalagon, your theory appears crazy on the surface but is oh so true in the pudding.


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## Ancalagon (Jul 28, 2002)

As much as I like to see you agree with me Grond, my hammer weilding foehammer fiendish friend, why should only Ulmo and Melkor be priviledge to this information? Melkor was only acting in anticipation as a method of causing dissent between men and Elves, Ulmo simply acted because no-one else did! Manwe on the other hand knew the mind of Iluvatar more than any and still refused to carry out his duty as a leader and protector of the secondborn..........shame on him!


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## Grond (Jul 28, 2002)

Dearest and Darkest of Dragon-friends..... whatever gives you the idea that good ole Manwe is omnipotent? It is clear in the Silmarillion that none knew the mind of Illuvator. Melkor was closest to Eru in the beginning and the most powerful. It was Melkor's discord that caused the music to constantly shift and cause Eru to have to bring harmony back. It seems to me that Melkor would know the most concerning these matters because it was his discord that caused so many changes and shifts to occur.


> _From the Silmarillion, Of Men,_
> *To Hildórien there came no Vala to guide Men, or to summon them to dwell in Valinor; and Men have feared the Valar, rather than loved them, and have not understood the purposes of the Powers, being at variance with them, and at strife with the world. Ulmo nonetheless took thought for them, aiding the counsel and will of Manwë; and his messages came often to them by stream and flood.*


I'm not sure we'll ever know whether it was ignorance on the part of the other Vala or some part of Eru's plan to leave Man to his own devices. It appears that only Ulmo and Melkor showed an interest. I still believe that this could easily indicate that they had the best insight into Man... but I could be wrong.


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## Helena (Jul 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Maedhros _
> *
> Couldn't they have done that as well far away from the influence of Melkor? *



Indeed they could have. But perhaps it was Ilúvatar's will, that the valar would not interfere with the destiny of the Secondborn. That is the impression I got from reading Silmarillion.


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## Maedhros (Jul 30, 2002)

> Indeed they could have. But perhaps it was Ilúvatar's will, that the valar would not interfere with the destiny of the Secondborn.


So why did they create Númenor? Isn't that interfering with the Secondborn too.


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## aragil (Jul 30, 2002)

I think Numenor is often classified as a mess-up on the part of the Valar. Remember the Tolkien quote I posted in the _Belief of Men_ thread:


> Reward on earth is more dangerous for men than punishment!


Tolkien here was directly referring to the 'rewarding' of Numenor to Men.


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## Grond (Jul 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Maedhros _
> *
> So why did they create Númenor? Isn't that interfering with the Secondborn too. *


Alas, the Secondborn were rewarded for aiding, none other than the Firstborn in their strife with Melkor. Again, favoritism is shown to the Firstborn. The fruits of the Secondborn (Numenor) is directly attributable to the Firstborn. 

It was also not interfering in the way you suggest. Numenor was bequethed largely to Elros because he chose to be counted among Men; but let's not forget that Elros was a Peredhil (half-elven) and again favoritism can be inferred from the action of the Valar. 

It should also be noted that the Secondborn were still not allowed to visit Valinor; instead, they were placed on an island close enough to catch a glimpse of Valinor now and again but they were forbidden to ever sail towards the West. That seems awful pathetic to me; forcing the Numenoreans to see the Land of Bliss daily and yet commanding them that it is not for them.


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## Ancalagon (Jul 30, 2002)

> Dearest and Darkest of Dragon-friends..... whatever gives you the idea that good ole Manwe is omnipotent? It is clear in the Silmarillion that none knew the mind of Illuvator.



I am certainly not saying Manwe is omnipotent, however I am saying he knew the designs of Eru better than any. And the Sil is clear that he knows most the mind of Eru;



> The mightiest of those Ainur who came into the World was in his beginning Melkor; but Manwë is dearest to Ilúvatar and understands most clearly his purposes.





> Yet the Elves believe that Men are often a grief to Manwë, who knows most of the mind of Ilúvatar; for it seems to the Elves that Men resemble Melkor most of all the Ainur, although he has ever feared and hated them, even those that served him.





> Then Manwë sat silent, and the thought of Yavanna that she had put into his heart grew and unfolded; and it was beheld by Ilúvatar. Then it seemed to Manwë that the Song rose once more about him, and he heeded now many things therein that though he had heard them he had not heeded before. And at last the Vision was renewed, but it was not now remote, for he was himself within it, and yet he saw that all was upheld by the hand of Ilúvatar; and the hand entered in, and from it came forth many wonders that had until then been hidden from him in the hearts of the Ainur.





> Then Manwë awoke, and he went down to Yavanna upon Ezellohar, and he sat beside her beneath the Two Trees. And Manwë said: 'O Kementári, Eru hath spoken, saying: "Do then any of the Valar suppose that I did not hear all the Song, even the least sound of the least voice? Behold!



Need I go on?


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## Tyaronumen (Jul 30, 2002)

Yes,

Manwe knew *MOST* of the mind of Iluvatar, but the Sil is also pretty clear, if I am remembering correctly, that Manwe, of all of the Valar, had one of the weakest understandings of evil, as it was almost entirely foreign to his character.

As such, he might have known "most" of the mind of Iluvatar, but the part of Iluvatar's mind from which evil sprang was almost entirely foreign to him...

This, to me, accounts for at least some of his mistakes.

An earlier poster (I'm sorry, I can't recall which) points out that rewarding the Atani with Numenor caused a hell of a lot of trouble... I would argue that similarly, allowing the Firstborn to go to Valinor in the first place created more problems than it solved.

IMHO, the Valar should have stayed out of the affairs of the other children, and their interactions with the children should have been limited to minimizing, or counter-balancing, the effects of Melkor.

I still don't feel sorry for the Atani who were left under the Shadows of Melkor. Iluvatar had his reasons to create the world in the fashion that he did so, and obviously, Iluvatar could have easily made the Valar aware of the awakening of men... and did NOT do so. 

He also could have made Manwe omnipotent, not bothered with Melkor at all, and more or less allowed the world to maintain it's perfection as it was prior to the destruction of the twin lamps... and instead of Valar, Elves, and Men, you'd've had a bunch of absolutely worthless, unintelligent sheep bleating meaningless and unlovely nonsense.

We'd all like to dwell in the Garden of Eden, I think... that's a part of the problem that I think some of the others in this thread have with the treatment of the Valar of the Firstborn vs. the Secondborn...

But I don't think that the appreciation one has for the Garden can be as deep and meaningful unless one has also experienced the world beyond. This gives us the strength of heart and mind to actually *appreciate* the Garden for what it is, instead of taking it for granted.

This is why the earlier generations of Numenoreans were free of the shadow -- they and their near ancestors were intimately acquainted with the Shadow and it's evils... and appreciated Numenor and the gifts of the Valar because of it. Their descendants slowly forgot about the old evil, and thus, a place opened within themselves for evil to exist.

Ah well.


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## Ancalagon (Jul 30, 2002)

> As such, he might have known "most" of the mind of Iluvatar, but the part of Iluvatar's mind from which evil sprang was almost entirely foreign to him...



Ty, I'll give you that without even a debate. Especially since I argued that very point in the Melkor; Evil by Will, Evil by Nature thread!



> I would argue that similarly, allowing the Firstborn to go to Valinor in the first place created more problems than it solved.



I also agree with this sentiment entirely; they should never have gone to Aman while Middle-Earth was their true inheritance.



> I still don't feel sorry for the Atani who were left under the Shadows of Melkor. Iluvatar had his reasons to create the world in the fashion that he did so, and obviously, Iluvatar could have easily made the Valar aware of the awakening of men... and did NOT do so.



Still can't accept this stance though. For one thing, the Valar were aware of the awakening of Men and when it would happen, though Manwe was not aware of where this might occur. While the Sun was sent to rise and signify the coming of Man, the Valar fortified Aman. They were underpriviledged and misunderstood. Feared by the Eldar and ignored by the Valar.


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## Tyaronumen (Jul 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ancalagon _
> *Still can't accept this stance though. For one thing, the Valar were aware of the awakening of Men and when it would happen, though Manwe was not aware of where this might occur. While the Sun was sent to rise and signify the coming of Man, the Valar fortified Aman. They were underpriviledged and misunderstood. Feared by the Eldar and ignored by the Valar. *



Hmmmmmm -- I don't think that the Atani were underprivileged, although misunderstood, certainly.

Why underprivileged? Because they weren't swaddled like little babies in the smothering cotton blanket of the Valar's love? 

I guess we might have to agree to disagree... I just think that if the Valar'd helped the Atani in a manner similar to the Elves, the result in the end would've been far more disastrous than Numenor... I think that the Atani are somewhat drawn to Melkor's point of view (indeed, I can't remember where in the Sil -- as per usual  -- but one place mentions that the Atani seemed closest to Melkor in nature of all the Valar) because of their ignorance about their final fate, which is quite frightening to them...

Peace


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## Ancalagon (Jul 30, 2002)

Underpriviledged in respect of their teaching. Much of the knowledge of the firstborn was enhanced by both Valar and Maiar alike. Men received no such learning except from the few Eldar who took time to understand them and guide them. This is a problem because they had little to no understanding of the powers of Arda, except those whom were associated with melkor, and they in turn rapidly spread from the east trapping and tricking this unwary race.


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## aragil (Jul 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Tyaronumen _
> *indeed, I can't remember where in the Sil -- as per usual  -- but one place mentions that the Atani seemed closest to Melkor in nature of all the Valar)
> *



I read that last night (or did I only dream it- I think it came from the Akalabeth), and as far as I recall that (the Atani being closest to Melkor in nature) was a belief of the Eldar. This certainly bolsters the 'misunderstood' argument (the same quote says that the Eldar worried that Men were a source of grief to Manwe), but I'm not sure that we can use the quote (biased as it is) to support the 'bigger disaster than Numenor argument'. No need though, I think, Tyarnumen. The point is that the Valar too directly interfering with the Eldar was bad (ala Feanor and the Noldor), and helping the Atani was even worse (Numenor).


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## Maedhros (Jul 30, 2002)

The Valar (Manwë), as usual, made many mistakes.
Just to see how the Valar messed up again let's see the following:
1. When the elves first came to ME, they send Oromë to get them.
2. After the rebellion of the Noldor they became estranged with the Valar.
3. When Men first came to ME, they were certainly under the influence of Melkor.
From Morgoth's Ring:ATHRABETH FINROD AH ANDRETH


> 'Do you think that none know save yourselves?' said Finrod at last. 'Do not the Valar know?' Andreth looked up and her eyes darkened. *'The Valar?' she said. 'How should I know, or any Man? Your Valar do not trouble us either with care or with instruction. They sent no summons to us.' *


And the excuse of the Valar is this:


> 'Has it never entered into your thought, Andreth, that out there in ages long past ye may have put yourselves out of their care, and beyond the reach of their help? Or even that ye, the Children of Men, were not a matter that they could govern? For ye were too great.


My question is: If the Valar knew that they couldn't govern Men, why couldn't they at least move Men to a better place far away from the influence of Melkor.
It would have saved them lots of trouble.
From the Peoples of ME: The Five Wizards


> But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinehtar and Rómestámo. Darkness-slayer and East-helper. Their task was to circumvent Sauron: *to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion *... and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause [? dissension and disarray] among the dark East ... They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East ... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West.


It's just isn't fair.
But the *coup de grace* of stupidity is that the Valar made Númenor to close to Valinor and Men were forever in love with the Concept of going to Valinor.


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## Grond (Jul 30, 2002)

Here is a quote from The Silmarillion, Of Men,


> But in the dawn of years Elves and Men were allies and held themselves akin, and there were some among Men that learned the wisdom of the Eldar, and became great and valiant among the captains of the Noldor.


Doesn't sound like man was evil in the beginning. It seems as if Melkor corrupted Man much later.

Also I believe the quote being looked for concerning the Eldar's opinion that Man most resembled Melkor is also from The Silmarillion, Of the Beginning of Days,


> But Ilúvatar knew that Men, being set amid the turmoils of the powers of the world, would stray often, and would not use their gifts in harmony; and he said. 'These too in their time shall find that all that they do redounds at the end only to the glory of my work.' yet the Elves believe that Men are often a grief to Manwë, who knows most of the mind of Ilúvatar; for it seems to the Elves that Men resemble Melkor most of all the Ainur, although he has ever feared and hated them, even those that served him.


Again, this quote is not a resounding endorsement for a great collusion between Melkor and the Atani. Just my two bits though.


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## Grond (Jul 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Maedhros _
> *The Valar (Manwë), as usual, made many mistakes.
> Just to see how the Valar messed up again let's see the following:
> 1. When the elves first came to ME, they send Oromë to get them.
> ...


Good Maedhros, I just must disagree with your sacrosanct view of Morgoth's Ring. I have used HoMe many times in the past to bring clarity and enhance views originally portrayed in LotR and Sil and even UT but to bring forth a clearly NEW concept from them seems to me not to reflect the author's wishes. The Corruption of the Atani as portrayed in Morgoth's Ring has no basis in any of his other works and seems to me to be a work of Middle-earth Fiction... the author simply telling a story of an opinion of one of the Atani. I do not believe that JRRT intended for this piece of information to undo what he has worked so hard to create in the Silmarillion Proper and The Lord of the Rings. It just doesn't make any sense to me.


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## aragil (Jul 30, 2002)

Tee-hee, I must beg to differ Grond. I think that Tolkien did set up the 'first fall of the Atani' in other works, so _Andrabeth_ isn't exactly introducing a new concept. There's the quote I posted earlier, from Tolkien's letter to Milton Waldman:


> _The Downfall_ is partly the result of an inner wekness in Men - consequent, if you will, upon the first Fall (unrecorded in these tales), repented but not finally healed. Reward on earth is more dangerous for men than punishment!


While this doesn't directly say that Morgoth was responsible for the first Fall, I have a difficult time imagining who else would do such a thing. Also, Tolkien describes it as an unrecorded fall- which to me heavily implies a fall prior to time when the Edain reach Beleriand. I don't have the Sil handy, but I recall that when Finrod reaches the camp of Beor, Beor hints that the tribes of Men are moving West in an effort to get _away_ from the shadow- this hints that the shadow is not only in the east, but behind them chronologically as well. Also, Maedhros's quote from the Five Wizards shows that Tolkien had been contemplating a long term worship of Morgoth in the East seperate from the conception in the _Andrabeth_ (although I must say that the prospect of Istari fighting Sauron during the _Second Age_ raises some anachronistic issues which I don't care for). I'm relatively certain that we can see hints of this both in the Silmarillion and in the other published works, so I think it's unfair to characterize the quotes by Maedhros as being concepts in opposition to the Silmarillion. I think it's especially telling that we see the exact same views on the nature of the Atani that are presented during the Silmarillion- they form the core of Finrod's counterargument to Andreth.


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## Maedhros (Jul 30, 2002)

sacrosanct: Regarded as sacred and inviolable.
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.


> the author simply telling a story of an opinion of one of the Atani.





> For these reasons the Elves were less sympathetic than Men expected to the lack of hope (or estel) in Men faced by death. Men were, of course, in general entirely ignorant of the 'Shadow Ahead' which conditioned Elvish thought and feeling, and simply envied Elvish 'immortality'. *But the Elves were on their part generally ignorant of the persistent tradition among Men that Men were also by nature immortal. *
> As is seen in the Athrabeth, Finrod is deeply moved and amazed to discover this tradition. *He uncovers a concomitant tradition that the change in the condition of Men from their original design was due to a primeval disaster, about which human lore is unclear, or Andreth is at least unwilling to say much*. (Author's Note 9, p. 343) He remains, nonetheless, in the opinion that the condition of Men before the disaster (or as we might say, of unfallen Man) cannot have been the same as that of the Elves. That is, their 'immortality' cannot have been the longevity within Arda of the Elves; otherwise they would have been simply Elves, and their separate introduction later into the Drama by Eru would have no function. He thinks that the notion of Men that, unchanged, they would not have died (in the sense of leaving Arda) is due to human misrepresentation of their own tradition, and possibly to envious comparison of themselves to the Elves. For one thing, he does not think this fits, as we might say, 'the observable peculiarities of human psychology', as compared with Elvish feelings towards the visible world.


Keyword tradition. It was their belief, and not necessarily truth.


> The traditions here referred to have come down from the Eldar of the First Age, through Elves who never were directly acquainted with the Valar, and through Men who received 'lore' from the Elves, but who had myths and cosmogonic legends, and astronomical guesses, of their own. There is, however, nothing in them that seriously conflicts with present human notions of the Solar System, and its size and position relative to the Universe. *It must be remembered, however, that it does not necessarily follow that 'True Information' concerning Arda (such as the ancient Eldar might have received from the Valar) must agree with Men's present theories*. Also, the Eldar (and the Valar) were not overwhelmed or even principally impressed by notions of size and distance. Their interest, certainly the interest of the Silmarillion and all related matter, may be termed 'dramatic'. Places or worlds were interesting or important because of what happened in them.


It may come from an untrue event, yet the belief is there.


> I do not believe that JRRT intended for this piece of information to undo what he has worked so hard to create in the Silmarillion Proper and The Lord of the Rings. It just doesn't make any sense to me.


I don't see why this undoes the author's view of everything else.


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## Gil-Galad (Aug 3, 2002)

"Yep, in the beginning they helped men by leaving them under the influence of Melkor. 
Great help indeed."
Maedhros I wrote that people had the advantage to see the real evil,being in power of Melkor and to realize which is better-to be servants of him or to live with elves.I mena that they had a chance to evaluate so that in the end of elves' days in ME they to be able to live alone in ME.To survive.So I think that if they didn't know what the face of evil was they wouldn't be able to survive,to evaluate.
I wasn't able to visit the forum for a week,but you know it's summertime and the sea was waiting for me.So I'm sorry that I answer you about this so late.


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## Kavrangoz (Aug 4, 2002)

*The justice of Valar?*

I think that Valas don't love humans.I've compared their behaviours to men and elves.They did wait the waking of the elves,but did they do this do men?When the elves awoke they showed themselves to elves and protected them from danger.(This protection caused a war between Valar and Melkor)But when the men awoke they didn't do anything.So how can you expect from them to find the right way?


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## Maeglin (Aug 4, 2002)

true, the valar didn't do anything, but maybe thats because they know men have the gift of death and they can not follow the valar forever, so the valar decided that it would be easier for men to find their own way and forge their own path instead of having the men follow them and die on the way, maybe the valar didn't want to lead them to nowhere, whereas they could lead the elves because the elves will live forever with them. 

Just a thought


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