# Turin & Oedipus



## SpencerC18 (May 6, 2002)

In Greek mythology the story of Oedipus Rex is about a man who was cursed by the gods and his life turned out to be very tragic. In the Greek myth, Oedipus killed his father and slept with his mother. The murder of his father is what sets in motion this "curse". I think Oedipus and Turin have a lot in common.

Both of their lives were filled with tragedy, and both had some form of incest.

What do you guys think?


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## Maedhros (May 6, 2002)

Well, this is too interesting for me to pass up.
First, there are a few differences, in greek tragedies, the cause of the tragedies is the Oracle. In this tragedy, Layo, the father of Oedipus seeks out the Oracle of Delphi in an attempt to find out about the future. He finds that his son is going to kill him and therefore he gives his newborn Oedipus to a servant which has pity on the boy and instead of killing him gives him away.
Then Oedipus grows and comes to a crossing in which Layo, the king, is there. Oedipus thinks that the King and his men are bandits and therefore he slays him. He then solves the riddle of the Sphinx and is received in good honor in the city and becomes king, Marrying his mother Yocasta.
The are very interesting similarities:
1. Both have events that shape their lives:
a. Oedipus has his father going to the Oracle.
Turin, has his father cursed by Morgoth.
b. Both married a member of their family. (Oedipus marries Yocasta, Turin his sister).
c. The events in which they are involved seemed in a way beyond their knowledge.


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## Anarchist (May 8, 2002)

Maedhros, allow me to correct a few things you said. First of all, the cause of the trouble that people go through in ancient Greek tragedies are either the sins of the fathers or the fate that Mires (you could call the Fates), three godesses created for someone. The Oracle of Delphi just said to the pople their fate. So it happened that Layo couldn't escape his fate. The ancient Greeks believed that noone can escape his fate and not even the Gods could change one's fate. Also, when Oedipus meets his father and his followers, they just have a fight and Layos tries to hit Oedipus, who was very easy tempered and killed him. Excuse me but I just wanted to correct some things. It's a matter of honor  .
The strongest similarities are that they both marry a member of their family and when they realise it they go mad (Oedipus took out his own eyes and Turin killed himself), and also that fate played very strange and bad games with them and they did morbid things they didn't know. Perhaps Tolien was influenced by ancient Greek tragedies and so greately added some parts of them in his work. Turin's story is one of my favourites.


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## Maedhros (May 8, 2002)

> The Oracle of Delphi just said to the pople their fate. So it happened that Layo couldn't escape his fate.


I will have to disagree. If Layo hadn't seek the oracle, then the entire tragedy would have been prevented.


> It's a matter of honor


For me too.


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## Anarchist (May 9, 2002)

No, the tragedy would take place, just in a different way. Layo tried to escape his fate, but in Greek mythology, fate plays very strange games. It all turns out that noone escapes his fate. Of course noone believes now that the prophecies of Pythia where right (in reality she was stoned when she was telling them!!!). But in mythology, she is just the mouth of god Apollo, who is a clairvoyant. The ancient Greeks liked to believe those fate stuff and made a lot of myths in which people try to escape their fate and always lose. I still insist that its not the oracle that caused those to Layo and Oedipus. I don't want to have a fight with you, let's keep it low, but I am Greek and this is more a matter of honour for me than you.


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## Maedhros (May 9, 2002)

> I still insist that its not the oracle that caused those to Layo and Oedipus. I don't want to have a fight with you, let's keep it low, but I am Greek and this is more a matter of honour for me than you.


It's not a matter of fighting. The debate makes this discussion better for everyone. How do you know that I'm not greek myself?
Ok, if Oedipus had lived with his father, then how could he killed his father knowing that it was his father and marrying Yocasta if he was his wife?


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## Walter (May 10, 2002)

It is a frequent motive in the greek mythology that people consult the Oracle of Delphi and when they do not like what they learn, they try to escape their fate - like in this story Layo and Oedipus, both try to "twist" their fate and avoid the predicted path and finally, by doing this, they actually fulfill the predictions.

Tolkien was well aware of the paralleles between Turin and Oedipus, in his Letter 131 he writes:


> There are other stories almost equally full in treatment, and equally independent and yet linked to the general history. There is the Children of Hurin, the tragic tale of Turin Turambar and his sister Niniel -of which Turin is the hero: a figure that might be said (by people who like that sort of thing, though it is not very useful) to be derived from elements in Sigurd the Volsung, Oedipus, and the Finnish Kullervo.


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## Maedhros (Oct 26, 2002)

> like in this story Layo and Oedipus, both try to "twist" their fate and avoid the predicted path and finally, by doing this, they actually fulfill the predictions.


I would say that only Laius tried to twist his fate more than Oedipus.
From Oedipus Rex:


> To Laius, King of Thebes, an oracle foretold that the child born to him by his queen Jocasta would slay his father and wed his mother.
> So when in time a son was born the infant's feet were riveted together
> and he was left to die on Mount Cithaeron. But a shepherd found the
> babe and tended him, and delivered him to another shepherd who took
> him to his master, the King or Corinth.





> Afterwards doubting his parentage he inquired of the Delphic god
> and heard himself the weird declared before to Laius. Wherefore he
> fled from what he deemed his father's house and in his flight he
> encountered and unwillingly slew his father Laius. Arriving at Thebes
> ...


Lauis knew about his son, but Oedipus didn't knew that his father was Laius.
In a way Oedipus is innocent because he is taken by "fate". He was a hero to the people of Thebes because he solved the riddle of the Sphinx.
There was a "plague" in Thebes an Oedipus as King send Creon to investigate what could help the city. When Creon returns he says to Oedipus:


> Let me report then all the god declared.
> King Phoebus bids us straitly extirpate
> A fell pollution that infests the land,
> And no more harbor an inveterate sore.


This referst to a person who has done terrible deeds. Oedipus.
Like Túrin, it was Oedipus pride that doomed him, but as we shall see, he was already doomed.
This is what the sage Teiresias told the King Oedipus:


> Is it so? Then I charge thee to abide
> By thine own proclamation; from this day
> Speak not to these or me. Thou art the man,
> Thou the accursed polluter of this land.
> ...


He was married with his mother without really knowing about it.
This is what the Oracle told Oedipus:


> Aye, 'tis no secret. Loxias once foretold
> That I should mate with mine own mother, and shed
> With my own hands the blood of my own sire.
> Hence Corinth was for many a year to me
> ...


And then when a servant tell Oedipus that he is not the Son of the King of Corinth:


> Know that he took thee from my hands, a gift.


Again Oedipus pride:


> Let the storm burst, my fixed resolve still holds,
> To learn my lineage, be it ne'er so low.
> It may be she with all a woman's pride
> Thinks scorn of my base parentage. But I
> ...


Is it so wrong to desire to know who you really are?
When Oedipus finally learns the truth:


> Then had I never come to shed
> My father's blood nor climbed my mother's bed;
> The monstrous offspring of a womb defiled,
> Co-mate of him who gendered me, and child.
> ...


And in the end.


> Look ye, countrymen and Thebans, this is Oedipus the great,
> He who knew the Sphinx's riddle and was mightiest in our state.
> Who of all our townsmen gazed not on his fame with envious eyes?
> Now, in what a sea of troubles sunk and overwhelmed he lies!
> ...


This is one of the best tragedies every by Sophocles. He definitely should have won the drama competition in Athens.


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