# Immortality or Mortality???



## Ermundo (Jul 5, 2006)

Main Intro:

 It is described in the Silmarillion how Earendil had two children, Elrond and Elros. At the end of the 1st age, both these folks got to choose what race they would belong to. Elrond choose to be of the high-elves and Elros an Numenorean king. Elrond became immortal and was granted the grace of the elves while Elros became the first king of the Numenoreans and had a extra-long life, many times that of mortal men. My question to you all is what race you would have choosen to belong to had you been given the choice,

_*Immortality of the elves:*_


Immortality is not a new concept at all. Almost all religons have beings that escape the pain of mortality from as the 330 million some devas in Hinduism to the angels in Judeo-Christian and Islamic theology. Also, "Panacea", a substance said to extend life indefinitely and cure you of diseases was a substance that alchemists spent they're whole lives trying to make, 
sometimes with deadly consequences. Obviously, people greatly desired eternal life.

*Pros:

.* You get to live forever like the elves yet diseases, old age, and wrinkles are a thing of the past. Who wouldn't want that.

*. *You don't have to worry about your appearance and what other's would think about you. Sounds good to me.
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Now I admit this sounds like the cream of the cream for most of us, but Elvish immortality got me thinking...Is this really worth it.

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*Cons:

. *I want you to think about this for a moment. If we were never going to die, there would be a problem with considering the future. Since there would be no end for us, we wouldn't be able to organize goals for ourselves and worry about what was in store for us in the future. At least, not in the same way as if you were mortal. It'd be like thinking... _I wonder if I will EVER be able to retire that job I've been doing for the last 10 thousand years._

*. *Also, you consider to consider the fact that, no matter how many 
interests you have in life, you'll problably go insane of boredom after the first thousand years.

*. *On top of these personal problems, think about the ecological effects. Overpopulation would be undestatement now that no one flippin dies. The society would start consuming up more and more faster and faster to keep up with demand to the point that there's nothing left. When this would happen, civillization would collapse and mankind would wither away. Note that I'm pointing the obvious. Also, pollution would increase 10 fold now that more and more people have to furfill their basic needs. Overcrowding, yes! Just an example, but imagine the number of family members that would attend, say, your uncle's 20 thousandth wedding anniversary!

*. *Finally, there's the factor that most greatly affects the elves, the weariness of life. Just imagine it, having to live an eternity just so that you contend with the world's never-ending problems and come in contact with cultural and political decay. Sounds more like a burden than a chore. Even worse for the elves, they have to keep on struggling no matter how long, how many, or how much evil there is. For evil shall never end, until it's untmost source is destroyed.

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Mortality*_: The Gift... and the curse

In Tolkien's world, Men die. It's inevitable. Once they die though, that's the mystery. They come to dwell for a time in the halls of Mandos and from their, who knows? It comes as no suprise than that some, or even most men will be afraid of the time when this thing called death comes and takes them away. It's not so much death though, but inevitability of it, that drives men mad. Also you could say that the fear that after death it's the end, well, I can see how that could be scary.

Note: For Mortality, it is harder to identify pros and cons since it's not as straightforward as immortality.

*Pros:

. *Since you have a limited time to live, you can be given reason to try to be the best you can possibly be, and to always aspire higher goals. You can try to make the best out of life, or choose to waste it.

*. *Men can escape from the turmoil of life through death. They do not have to suffer indefinetely.

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As for Cons, well think about it. Men consider death as a gift of God they would have gladly returned unopened.
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*Cons:

. *Men are not afraid of death itself, but the inability to do anything about it. It's like being forced to go through surgery even when you know your going to wake up right in the middle of it.

. AND since Elves are immortal and don't have to suffer from death, Men feel as if they were cheated. Certainly doesn't help the situation.

*. *Also,Men are given frail bodies that are subject to disease and stravation. They are, in other words, vulnerable. This would make men even more mad.

I hope you can understand the problems the Valar had in convincing the Edain to come to Numenor. To men, elves had it made. They lived in Aman with they're good buddies the Ainur, were blissful AND were immortal, which means they don't have to suffer from human ailments. But men, on the other hand, had to suffer and die at the hands of Morgoth even more than Elves and yet elves got to go to Aman and they didn't! Where was the justice in that, they thought? Also, men argued at their fate of mortality, saying that even those elves who had participated in the war of the jewels and the battle in which Thangorodrim was brocken still got to stay immortal while us man had to die when we also aided the Valar in the final defeat of Melkor (excuse me, Morgoth).

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*_Conclusion:

I have provided reasons for and against becoming a man or an elf. Personally, I would choose being a man since I don't want to live eternally with life as a burden. Anyway, it would really start to get boring after the first thousand years. But that's just my opinion, what about yours?


Resouces:

Wikipedia
The Origins of Tolkien's Middle-Earth for Dummies
The encyclopedia of Arda
The Bible


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## YayGollum (Jul 5, 2006)

Well, of course, I would think that I would go with immortality, since I've already experienced this mortality thing for a while. Yay for getting sick, yes?  Sure, I understand the cons of both, but I would have no problem with not having to worry about goals anymore. I wouldn't really need to worry about them as much, since they wouldn't be as important to living. Sure, I probably would get bored, but there's always another language to learn, always some new idea springing into being, always new stories, always new people. The overpopulation thing doesn't matter, since only I get some immortality, by way of this question. As to your last con, I don't see why I would be forced to deal with all of those problems. I can't die. Why not just wander around, not worrying about eating or sleeping, only having fun with what interests me and getting out of the way of the dangerous things?


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## Persephone (Jul 5, 2006)

I would like to be an immortal human --- is that possible?

Anyway, like Yay pointed out, I too have been mortal far too long to say I enjoy it. I envy any living creature that has been given the gift of immortality.

So, yes, even if I go insane of boredom after the first thousand years, that is still a thousand years my friend. I'll give anything to last that long and still be so young!

However, as for overpopulation, I disagree with this point. First, why would you go ahead and hurry to have children when you won't die? That's a thousand years of guilt-free s******g my friend! Ever heard of contraceptives? 

As for getting tangled with politics and cultural problems, I think this is the answer to boredom. You wanted something to do for a thousand years, well, this is it! Get involved! Be heard! Vote wisely!


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## Ermundo (Jul 5, 2006)

I'd have to disagree with you (Narya) on overpopulation. It doesn't flippin matter wether or not you decide to wait a hundred thousand years to have children, there are going to be future generations. So to say that overpopulation is not going to happen is not right at all. 

As for Mortality, I see what you both are pointing at. Obviously since I have only experienced being a mortal, I would want to stay a mortal. But think of the poor Numenoreans. I mean, they saw themselves age, weaken, and then die, being frail and old and riddled with diseases. Elves on the other hand kept on living, never aging, and living some more, never aging, and living some more, etc. See what I mean.

Think about your answer from the men in Tolkien's world's standpoint.


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## Persephone (Jul 5, 2006)

morgoththe1 said:


> I'd have to disagree with you (Narya) on overpopulation. It doesn't flippin matter wether or not you decide to wait a hundred thousand years to have children, there are going to be future generations. So to say that overpopulation is not going to happen is not right at all.
> 
> As for Mortality, I see what you both are pointing at. Obviously since I have only experienced being a mortal, I would want to stay a mortal. But think of the poor Numenoreans. I mean, they saw themselves age, weaken, and then die, being frail and old and riddled with diseases. Elves on the other hand kept on living, never aging, and living some more, never aging, and living some more, etc. See what I mean.
> 
> Think about your answer from the men in Tolkien's world's standpoint.



Yes, I was trying to be funny. 

However, if you want a serious answer then here's mine: Immortality is still my answer, because Death is not a gift at all --- in any world --- it's a curse. That is the reason why we mourn.


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## Varokhâr (Jul 5, 2006)

I second the "immortal Adan" wish 

My favorite race in LOTR is of course the Edain, since I am one myself (technically speaking - as are we all), and I have a good connection with my "humaness" so I'd be just tickled to have immortality - not merely for myself, but all humans.

Yes, there are cons, for sure. Overpopulaton is definitely one of them, but in a agrarian, "Medieval" world of tribes, clans, and cycles of war and peace, that alone would put a damper on the population growth. In a world of struggle and strife, there would be population booms also, but enough swordplay to see to it. It certainly seemed so in the past of this world.

And the pros are powerful pros, indeed. I do NOT look forward to the infirmity and degredation old age will heap on me, and it depresses me to see it in those whom I love. I hate the thought of my future wife having to one day suffer the curse of old age (though it is of course infinitely preferable to a sudden and early death, given the circumstances of the modern world). To know that, barring mishap or murder, my loved ones and myself can potentially live eternally on this earth is a very pleasant thought. For me, circumventing the sorrows which old age and illness bring is enough to choose immortal life. 

I know I certainly wouldn't get bored. When I develop an interest, I can run with it for an indefinite time. Even trivial ones. I've no fear that I'd become bored or dull with the passage of centuries. 

And there is always the possibility of death. Mishap or murder, again, at peace or at war. Though I am an Odinist, I've studied Bushido, and one of its prime tenets is that one should keep in mind always that death can come at any time, and hence one must make every word and deed count. That would still hold true in a world where we were immortal, and the focus I don't think would be lost.

Better a hundred clashes with armed warriors against whom I have a chance of survival than one clash against old age, against whom there is no weapon nor defense.


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## Ermundo (Jul 5, 2006)

Varokhâr said:


> I second the "immortal Adan" wish
> 
> My favorite race in LOTR is of course the Edain, since I am one myself (technically speaking - as are we all), and I have a good connection with my "humaness" so I'd be just tickled to have immortality - not merely for myself, but all humans.
> 
> ...


That was well said, Brother! Well done.

Oh and Narya, two things, first I got your PM and second I know you were kidding and hopefully YayGollum was to. It's ok to joke around but post a serious answer evenutually. Sorry for the leeway.


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## Maeglin (Jul 6, 2006)

Wow, I'm the only one that voted for mortality.

Perhaps it is because we (those of us who have posted in this thread) are still relatively young that we wouldn't mind living forever. However, I've been told by older people that they thought the same thing when they were young, but when they think about it now they would not want to live forever. Now, maybe thats just a side effect of old age...people perhaps think to themselves "Wow it really stinks to look and feel like this, I'd like to die"...but somehow I doubt that. Anyway....I certainly don't think I would want to live forever, I would just get too bored. And sure...as Narya said, politics can keep you occupied for thousands of years, but even that would get boring after a while. And if we had politics for thousands of years we would all end up killing each other anyway, so we die either way.


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## Ermundo (Jul 9, 2006)

Thanks for the reply, Maeglin. Greatly appreciated.

Anyone else?













Morgoththe1


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## Ingwë (Jul 17, 2006)

I voted for mortality. I don't want to be immortal, I'll have to see too much pain and wars. I want a long life, like the dwarves, but not endless one. I would rather want to have a short funny life than a long and boring life. 
I would say that I don't want to live after I've reached the 'top' of my life... Why should I live if I cannot do anything great, greater that before?


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