# Redemption theme in LOTR



## indexerkevin (Jul 25, 2002)

I thought I'd try and start some conversation about themes. I think the usual ones get a lot of play: good and evil (duh!); hope; friendship; etc. How about this one:: Redemption as a theme in LOTR.

For obvious starters we have Aragorn redeeming the Northern Dunedain. Boromir redeems his own downfall by giving his life unselfishly. Faramir redeems Boromir to some extent and also the downfall of his father, not to mention the Southern Dundedain. Theoden redeems his own dotardness by his glorious charge. Eowyn redeems her (as I see it) self-centered attempt to throw her life away when the man she loves doesn't return her love..

I'm not sure about the hobbits. In a way I see them redeeming the general cluelessness of hobbits in general as far as the wider world is concerned: those once the least involved in the world do the greatest single act and save the world, the other hobbits remaining more or less clueless about what actually went down.

Some of the elves like Galadriel perhaps redeeming the evil outcomes of the Noldor's vengeful and doomed pursuit of Morgoth which probably brought on many times the number of deaths that Morgoth and Sauron together personally caused.

Hopefully there is enough here for people to argue or agree with....


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## indexerkevin (Jul 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Confusticated _
> *I see your point
> further more: Gimli's friendship with the Elves. *



That's good. Plus the riders of Rohan by accepting his help without being jerks, and later making him Lord of the Glittering Caves, redeem their ancient hatred of dwarves. This dates according to the appendices to long before the days of Eorl when some guy captures a dragon, the dwarves lay claim to its treasure, and the man taunts them by sending them a string of dragon teeth, for which insult the dwarves supposedly slay him.


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## YayGollum (Jul 25, 2002)

What, did you forget about Gollum redeeming himself?


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## indexerkevin (Jul 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by YayGollum _
> *What, did you forget about Gollum redeeming himself?  *



Great one!! Absolutely couldn't agree more. I'd already written a long post so I just let it go with what I did. Some might argue that was unintentional but yet Gollum had been really trying to recover his dignity for a long time and had the courage and strength of will to strive against the evil still working in him, though he did fail at that in the end. 

Bilbo's slight bit of ring-induced cheating is redeemed by his letting Gollum live when he could have easily slain him.


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## YayGollum (Jul 25, 2002)

Ummm...he failed? I thought he got rid of the evilness in the end. Whoops! Who was it then, that destroyed the Ring and Sauron? oh well. I'll have to read those books again.  Anyways, what was that about Bilbo? What ring-induced cheating? Are you talking about the riddle game? I always thought that that part was a coincidence! Whoops! oh well. Also, ummm...Bilbo could have easily slain Gollum? Where do you see that?


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## indexerkevin (Jul 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by YayGollum _
> *Ummm...he failed? I thought he got rid of the evilness in the end. Whoops! Who was it then, that destroyed the Ring and Sauron? oh well. I'll have to read those books again.  Anyways, what was that about Bilbo? What ring-induced cheating? Are you talking about the riddle game? I always thought that that part was a coincidence! Whoops! oh well. Also, ummm...Bilbo could have easily slain Gollum? Where do you see that? *



Of course you're right he got rid of the evil in the end but that was unintentional. The failure I mentioned referred to his trying to be "nicer Gollum," which he really tried to be. He "failed" at that when he betrayed them to Shelob. That's all I meant. No question that he is a hero in the end, unintentional or not.

Yes indeed Bilbo could have slain Gollum using the power of the ring; Gandalf says the famous line "it was pity that stayed Bilbo's hand" By ring-induced cheating I do refer to the "controversy" as to whether his last riddle was legal or not. His guilt about this caused him to lie (at first) to Gandalf about the exact details of how he obtained the ring. (less confident about this since only read Hobbit once and a long time ago..)


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## YayGollum (Jul 25, 2002)

Yeah, it is sad that he sent them to Shelob because of sam. Evil sam. oh well. Anyways, no. The Ring had nothing to do with Bilbo maybe killing Gollum. If the Ring wanted Bilbo to kill Gollum, Gollum would be dead. Maaaybe Bilbo could have killed Gollum with Sting using the invisibility power of the Ring. That's about it. I still think Gollum could have gotten away. oh well. Also, the Ring did not make Bilbo cheat. He was nervous, couldn't think of a riddle, stuck his hand in his pocket, and said the first thing that popped into his head. I don't really think the Ring made Bilbo ask that question. But yes, it did make him lie about it to Gandalf and the Dwarves later. 

Whoops! This thread is supposed to be about people redeeming themselves and I'm arguing about why Bilbo might have wanted to kill Gollum!


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## indexerkevin (Jul 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by YayGollum _
> *Yeah, it is sad that he sent them to Shelob because of sam. Evil sam. oh well.*



I was gonna point that out, that Sam's distrust of Gollum may have steered him eventually to give them up to Shelob partly out of spite, so you could argue it was Sam who caused Gollum's failure to become nicer; the Gollum/Smeagol internal struggle.

Thanks for the remarks from the Hobbit time period. I still think that the ring worked on Bilbo from the second he picked it up, and continued working on him up to the point where he tries to give it Gandalf to give to Frodo; that was its nature. From the ring's point of view, anything that keeps it there as opposed to anywhere else works in the ring/Sauron's favor.


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## YayGollum (Jul 25, 2002)

Woah! As far back as the Confusticated person wants to trace it, Gandalf is the cause? Huh. Well, I'd probably take it back to Sauron, then Iluvatar, then maybe J.R.R.Tolkien. oh well. Yes, the evil sam's evilness to poor Smeagol was what made him take them to Shelob. I think I saw in some letter of Tolkien's that if the evil sam hadn't been evil, Gollum would have ended up throwing the Ring in voluntarily. oh well. Anyways, yes, I can see why you think that the Ring made Bilbo cheat. I would say that it didn't actually make him say "What's in my pocket?", but that it just made his hand go to the pocket. oh well. There's my two cents. Well, probably a little more.


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## indexerkevin (Jul 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Confusticated _
> *....Bilbo reedemed by nature when he eventually grew old and senile. Enoough so that he finally got over the ring. Without the ring his life would have ended (perhaps before he went senile)...so the ring redemed Bilbo.*



He certainly redeemed himself because as far as I know he is the only person ever to have used it a long time to give the ring up of his own free will, though he had to be intimidated by Gandalf at the last. The only other one to give it up at all willingly being Sam; unless you want to count Tom the Bomb.

Also I think it is possible that there could be redemption on many levels for any given character.

And also if someone has any long-held thoughts about the interaction of the different themes, throw those in too. Like I see a huge aspect of Redemption-Hope with Aragorn. His hope for their possible life together drives him and helps him achieve the redemption of the Northern line. I love all the spots where after a bad day Aragorn looks wistfully to the North and is lost in thought. Or the spot when the Fellowship gets to Lothlorien and he stands wistfully on the hill, never to return. In the tale of Arwen and Aragorn you learn this is the very hill where Galadriel, acting as matchmaker (as I see it), has him dress as an elf and Arwen first sees him revealed in all his glory and falls for him totally. Yeah I know I'm getting off my own topic but I think the Arwen-Aragorn story is the greatest love story ever written, and the most bittersweet in the end.


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## HLGStrider (Jul 25, 2002)

The Paths of the Dead.

The oath breakers redeem themselves by fulfilling the oath

Aragorn redeems Isilder... Isuldir... OH great... Now Rumil has me paranoid about misspelling the darn thing... 

Anyway he redeems him by putting asside several opportunities to gain the ring. No one can deny that it would've been easy for him to grab it anytime before Rivendell... or even during the quest. Also he was sort of offered it at the Council... though I doubt the elves would've let him grab it.

Wormtongue sort of redeems himself by killing Sauramen... though an eye for an eye isn't exactly redeeming...

Galadriel obviously redeems herself by turning down the ring.


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## indexerkevin (Jul 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> *The Paths of the Dead.
> 
> The oath breakers redeem themselves by fulfilling the oath
> ...



Good one about the oath breakers. Also about Wormtongue; plus another aspect is the throwing out of the palantir. Without this, Aragorn wouldn't use it and 1) see the peril of the current military situation with their old nemesis the corsairs of Umbar and realize he must take the Paths of the Dead, and 2) Sauron maybe wouldn't rush his hand by seeing the heir of Isildur and assuming he must have the ring, thereby launching his attack on Minas Tirith before fully ready.

I think Tolkien was smart enough and a good writer to bring these aspects out. That by an amazingly complicated web of events and coincidence redemption is achieved all around, often unintentionally. But in the end almost everyone has played some key role and to some extent achieved a measure of redemption.

I'm curious, any one seen any writing of Tolkien about this issue?

How's this for crazy. What about if maybe Gandalf is in part redeeming himself. Clearly he redeems the Istari as a whole given that all fail in their goal except him: the 2 unnamed wizards become enamored of the East and are lost to memory; Radagast becomes enamored of his animal craft and largly forgets his mission, though he redeems himself with Gwahir; and of course Saruman becomes enamored with himself. Now how about this crazy notion: maybe sometime long ago Gandalf had some role to play inadvertently allowing Sauron to come to power. Like maybe he was fooled by Sauron in the early days and was sent on the Istari mission to make up for that. Then when he "dies" in Moria, the Valar are like "excuse me buttmunch, but you have a job to do and mere death isn't going to get you out of this one. Back you go..." Talk about your crazy speculation! But this is fun.


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## HLGStrider (Jul 25, 2002)

Gandalf wasn't really taken in by Sauron that I can remember the he _was_ taken in by _Saruman_ !!!

He believed him that the ring was lost forever because the "wiser" wizard told him it was. I would say he redeemed himself by becoming "Saruman as he should've been".


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## indexerkevin (Jul 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> *Gandalf wasn't really taken in by Sauron ... *




Here I was speaking totally speculatively in terms of his days on Valinor or wherever he lived. Clearly in LOTR he perceives Sauron correctly. My totally speculative point was that maybe he had some role in letting Sauron come to power, not being vilegant enough in Valinor say. So speculative that maybe I should go like Roseanne Rosanna Dana: "never mind!"


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## Ariana Undomiel (Jul 25, 2002)

Hmmm. There are many examples of redemption in this book. Probably the biggest one is the redemption of Middle Earth through the struggles and sacrifices of all those fighting for the good. Good topic!


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## Theoden (Jul 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by indexerkevin _
> *
> ...by an amazingly complicated web of events and coincidence redemption is achieved all around, often unintentionally. But in the end almost everyone has played some key role and to some extent achieved a measure of redemption.
> *



I think it is important to remember the deffinition of redmeption. Webster's Dictionary states that redemption is the act of bying back something or someone. I do not see that WormTongue baught back anything, nor that Gollum redeemed himself by bighting of the finger of the person (hobbit) he had claimed to protect and swore to. There are alot... like the Dead, and Theoden, and Pippen by saving Faramir I think he redeemed his acts of stupididty in Moria and later with the palantir. But to say that the bad guys redeemed themselves... I think that is going too far.

-me


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## HLGStrider (Jul 26, 2002)

It is a good topic.

A lot of books carry a redemption theme... like Red Badge of Courage or some of the Pyrdia Chronicles (Esp. book two, the Black Cauldron.). The Lord of the Rings however is redemption on a higher level. The destruction of the Ring practically redeems the entire planet!


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## aragil (Jul 26, 2002)

Hmm. Does it? Definitely redeems 3 groups- Elrond, Galadriel, Glofindel, and Gildor are all Noldor who help the Fellowship (probably not as much as they should have), so perhaps the Noldor of Eregion are redeemed for their ring-folly (although something tells me that none of the smiths were still in Middle-earth at the end of the 3rd age); Aragorn certainly redeems his ancestors, especially Isildur; Gandalf redeems the Istari, and, in a sense, all the Powers in Aman- as their lack of vigilance after the War of Wrath allowed Sauron to work his mojo for the next 6,000 years.
But I'm still not sure the Ring-destruction redeems everyone- it doesn't seem to help Saruman much, and I'm afraid I'm not in the 'Gollum=hero' crowd. What about the Southrons and Easterlings, or even the Nazgûl? Or what about Sauron, for that matter?
I think that a related theme here is the 'fallible hero' theme. Before you can have redemption, you need to have a fall- and all JRRT's characters fall at some point, even the Valar. IMO the good/evil division comes after the fall- Boromir for instance falls to the power of the Ring, but then dies in the act of atonement. Gollum, on the other hand, falls to the same power, but never quite claws his way back out of the pit- despite coming oh-so-close on the path up to Shelob's lair. Saruman sort of epitomizes this- he is given chance after chance to redeem himself, yet he chooses to cling to his ways even though the good guys are rooting for him.

One of the more epic redemptions comes through the Race of Men, focusing on Men of the West in particular. In the Sil/HoME (I know, wrong forum) Men arise with the sun and are soon 'tainted' by Morgoth. Many travel West, and achieve a degree of atonement through aiding the Eldar against Morgoth. As a reward, they are gifted Numenor, a gift which they eventually destroy through a second fall. A second redemption comes through with the War of the Last Alliance, which is swiftly followed by a third fall as Isildur is unable to destroy the Ring. I like how this is cyclical- there is no 'happy ending', eventually men fall again, and the really good ones get back up.


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## indexerkevin (Jul 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Theoden _
> *
> 
> I think it is important to remember the deffinition of redmeption. Webster's Dictionary states that redemption is the act of bying back something or someone. I do not see that WormTongue baught back anything, nor that Gollum redeemed himself by bighting of the finger of the person (hobbit) he had claimed to protect and swore to.
> ...



My Webster's Collegiate has these others:

to get or win back

to free from what distresses or harms

to extricate from or help to overcome something detrimental

to free from the consequences of sin

to change for the better

repair; restore

to make good: fulfill

to atone for

to make worthwhile: retrieve

Though I would agree some of the ones mentioned so far are a bit of a stretch, many/most could be found to satisfy at least one above. My purpose was to stimulate thought and conversation. Apparently it has which is great! 

As for Pippin, he was also bummed that he had not got into any "real" fighting and this he redeemed by saving Beregond at the battle before the Morannon.

Aragil; yeah I mentioned before about Galadriel helping to redeem the Noldor but you put it much better than I did.. I would put Elrond's debt to the Noldor-foolishness as much less since he fought several times in aid of the Northern Dunedain and indeed raised Aragorn as a son; in fact calls him "my son." (in tale of Arwen and Aragorn) I hadn't yet brought it up but I too had concluded that Saruman was completely without redemption as I can see; and of course no need to even bring up Sauron. 

Saruman alone of all the bad guys (other than of course Sauron), never retreats one bit from his self-centeredness. Gollum and Wormtongue at least struggle a bit and at least try to regain their old selves; Wormtongue much less so but the text refers to his wanting to leave Saruman.

As to the Eastern and Southern men, I would like to think that things were better for them after the fall of Sauron. On teh one hand it is said that they sent ambassadors to the crowning of Elessar. On the other under Eomer in the appendix it says he was ever off in wars with Aragorn, so that implies the other men were not easily subdued. Yet in the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen it says Aragorn travelled far, even unto the East and South, and acquianted himself with the mind and condition of other men. I would like to think his great character may have helped heal the ancient animosities between Gondor and the Easterlings, Hadrim, and Corsairs, but this probably took a long time. I think the riders did a good thing by being magnamimous to the captured Dunlendings after Helm's Deep. After all they (the riders) did take (actually were given by Cirion) land that more or less belonged to the Dunlending men. 

In this aspect, depicting the festering hatreds of men over thousands of years, LOTR is very true to real life unfortunately. Just lokk at the Middle East or anywhere else. Very depressing sometimes..


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## Ariana Undomiel (Jul 26, 2002)

I so agree with Theoden. I do not think that the bad guys redeemed themselves. Gollum may have taken part in the destruction of the ring, but he sure didn't do it on purpose. Worm Tongue also acted out of fear or hatred. So I don't think he redeemed himself either.

~ Ariana


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## aragil (Jul 26, 2002)

re. Easterners and Southrons-

These two groups do get (a very little, IMO) sympathetic treatment from Tolkien. The Easterlings get Bor and his sons, who remain true during the Nirnaeth, a redemption for the Easterlings in light of the actions of Ulfang, etc.
I also get a sense of sympathy (if not redemption) when Sam looks at the dead Southron during the action in Ithilien. Sam thinks about what could have brought him to this end, which to me implies that not all Haradrim are necessarily evil, and which therefor allows them room to redeem themselves. As LotR is concerned with the northwest of Middle-earth, perhaps there are many redemptions in the South, they just aren't recorded. At least, that's my theory.


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## indexerkevin (Jul 28, 2002)

What about Denethor? I see as far as debt needing to be repaid goes, his hubris to look into the stone which ultimately almost brings Minas Tirith to ruin. What if anything does he do, other than to get out of the way and let Aragorn take over, though this too could be seen as self-centered and cowardly. On the other hand overall he does a good job of preparing for the onslaught of Mordor, since he correctly perceives that the big attacks will happen on his watch.. This is pointed out in the Appendix under the Stewards, that he does a masterful job of gathering what is left of the strength of Gondor and holding Sauron's forces off.

I'm surprised more people haven't argued from the other side: like why do I assert some people even need redemption; or that teh actions of one can redeem the actions of others. So for example would some think Denethor needs no redemption, or that Aragorn needs no redemption since the faults of his ancestor's are not his worry and he was exemplary in his own life?


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## HLGStrider (Jul 28, 2002)

If you were dealing with their real lives they might give you a harder time, but this is about literary themes, and I think people like to see redemption in books...

Personally I believe it does apply to real life...


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