# What if Saruman hadn't gone bad?



## Ithrynluin (Jul 22, 2002)

What if Saruman hadn't been corrupted by evil? Would the War of the Ring had taken a different course? Obviously there would be no war in Rohan and the Rohirrim would have arrived much sooner.
If Saruman had remained true to his mission,would the White Council have ousted Sauron from Dol Guldur any sooner and what would be the consequences of this?
What if he was in Minas Tirith during the siege? Would his presence have any impact on the battle (or on the Witch-king?)?

Many "ifs" but it would sure be interesting to know the outcome!
Any opinions welcome.


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## aragil (Jul 23, 2002)

I suspect that most of us think Saruman's treachery is so fundamental to Lord of the Rings, that it is almost impossible to imagine the epic without it. In the Silmarillion we have Iluvatar's strongest creation (Melkor) falling from grace. In many ways Saruman's fall is the 3rd Age equivalent. First off, it gives us an idea of how dangerous the Ring is- if the head of the Istari and White Council can fall to its power without ever touching it, then we know no-one is safe. Second- it gives us a contrast to Gandalf. Who knows what sort of relative powers the two had in Valinor, but by all accounts it seems that Saruman was considered 'more powerful' in Middle-earth (I do hate the term 'more powerful'- it is too much of a blanket statement). Saruman's trust in his own strength becomes his inherent flaw, he becomes proud and holds contempt for those who sees as less powerful (esp. Radagast and the Hobbits). Gandalf, however acknowledges his own limits, and seeks understanding of others. If ends justify the means, then Gandalf's approach is apparently the 'correct' one.
So I guess my question is, if Saruman doesn't fall, does that mean that his approach becomes 'more correct'? I imagine that if he didn't fall, then the Free-Peoples would have been much stronger militarily at the Battle of the Pelannor Fields (but without the help of the Ents or the ghosts of the oath-breakers), but military strength was useless against Sauron. The Free-Peoples would still not have been strong enough to overcome Sauron in battle- their salvation ultimately rested with Frodo and following Gandalf's plan. I just don't believe that Saruman, with his pride and trust in strength, could have positively contributed to the Free-People's victory.


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## Gamil Zirak (Jul 25, 2002)

If Saruman remains true to his purpose, then many things would change. Gandalf doesn't become Gandalf the White and Saruman remains Saruman the White. The Balrog isn't defeated in Moria (no one goes through Moria). Pippin and Merry aren't taken to Isengard and then don't rouse the Ents. Boromir doesn't die. There's many more, but I don't think the ring would have been destroyed if he remained true.


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## Gamil Zirak (Jul 25, 2002)

The possibilities are endless. I'm just glad Gandalf didn't check Saruman's expiration date.


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## Maeglin (Jul 28, 2002)

Ithrynluin there are a lot of "ifs" in your question, and unfortunately "what if?" is an impossible question to answer, but like Gamil said the possibilities are endless.


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## Ravenna (Jul 29, 2002)

How anbout this for a possibility?
If Saruman hadn't gone bad, the Saurons Eye would not have been drawn so far afield by the capture of Merry and Pippin, and by Aragorn looking into the Palantir. He would have kept a closer eye on his own borders and therefore Frodo and sam would have been picked up before they got anywhere near Orodruin, Sauron would have regained the Ring and ruled the entirety of Middle Earth.


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## Lantarion (Jul 30, 2002)

Yikes; 'good' scenario, Ravenna! Welcome to the forum!


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## Eol (Aug 5, 2002)

*Saruman*

My guess is that if Saruman had been true, he would have been trusted by Gandalf (who didn't completely trust him, neither did Galadriel). If this had been the case, then they would have ousted Sauron from Dol Guldor sooner instead of delaying until Sauron had prepared Mordor. Thus the way to the fire would be easier. Also, Gandalf would have informed Saruman of Bilbo's ring on the return trip from the Lonely Mountain, maybe in Rivendell. Saruman would instantly have recognized this ring as ringmaking was his primary province, being a Maia of Aule, and having studied the art (remember his home-made ring that Gandalf saw?). It most likely would have been a simple trek to Mordor for Bilbo. The trick here really is, would he throw it in, or who would force him to?

Eol


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## Aragorn12345 (Aug 7, 2002)

If Sauraman hadn't gone bad then the Ents wouldn't have to destroy Isengard. and Sauron would have one less person watching out for stuff in the stone of Gondor there for I think it would of been okay for Sam to wear the Ring in Mordor when Frodo was captured because Saurons eye would be to busy preparing for battle and watching Minias Tirith's every move so that he wouldn't be distracted by it.


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## Maeglin (Aug 7, 2002)

I think Sauron would have been more concerned with the ring then with winning battles against Saruman and the Captains of the West, because if he had the ring then he wouldn't have to worry about losing the battles.

Welcome to the Forum aragorn12345


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## Mad Adski (Aug 15, 2002)

I suspect that if Saruman had ramained true, then the fellowship would have had an easier time actually getting to the borders of Mordor, but I think from then on it would have been more difficult. It seems to me that much of Saruman's actual military strength came from the use of Orcs and obviously if he was still good, he wouldn't have been using Orcs. Therefore, how much of an actual military contribution could he have made? I'm sure that Sauron's armies would have been defeated before the gates of Minas Tirith - but in all likelyhood it would not create enough of a distraction for Sauron and he would have become aware of Sam and Frodo, they would have been captured and a second darkness would have fallen. 

It seems to me that Saruman's treachery helped to cause enough chaos throughout Middle Earth in order to distract Sauron and allow Sam and Frodo to slip by. Without this, the forces of light would be slightly stronger, but they would not have been able to destroy the one ring and it would have fallen in Sauron's hands. 

However, this does of course assume that events had gone as they were before Saruman's open betrayel and Sauron had not been driven out of Dol Guldor earlier and the ring destroyed before the Dark Lord could regain his strength.


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## Maeglin (Aug 15, 2002)

thats a good scenario, It never really occured to me to look at it like that before.


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## Confusticated (Aug 16, 2002)

Have you who posted the last few replies kept in mind if Saruman hadn't gone bad he may have counsiled againts the fellowship? I think there is a chance that the felowship might not have been, or would have been a different fellowship with different plans. They wouldn't have had to to through Moria..for one.


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## Maeglin (Aug 16, 2002)

I know he wouldn't send them through Moria, but I also do not see any reason why he would council against a fellowship, he would not want to send a little hobbit into mordor alone, and I also do not think he would advise against it because Elrond, the wisest of the three elven-ring bearers, thought there should be a fellowship, and if Saruman were still good he would realize that Elrond is wiser than himself and would respect him, therefore most likely encouraging Elrond's plan, unless he thought he had a much better one, can you think of anything else Saruman would have used as a plan, if you can I would love to hear it.


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## Confusticated (Aug 16, 2002)

I could make some bad guesses and thats as far as it goes. I don't think he would have disagreed with Elrond entirely, but I admit that there is a chance that he would. There's also a chance that Gandalf would have found out sooner about the One Ring, with the aid of Saruman. Perhaps Saruman would have had Gandalf bring Frodo To Isengard and there come up with a plan. Perhaps with Saruman working honestly from the get go, it would have been known That Bilbo had the one ring 50 years sooner. I just find it hard to think that the occurance of and actions of the fellowship would be little or not at all effected by something as big as Saruman's being good and true. Same thing with the actions taken by Sauron, without his pal Saruman who knows what he owuld have done. Probably tried harder to ensnare someone else....perhaps he would have gotten to Denethor?..don't know.


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