# Would some folks in Gondor Recognize Him from his Undercover Days Serving Denethor's Father?



## CirdanLinweilin (Aug 27, 2019)

I just thought of this? Would they have? Especially the older gentlemen and women?

Why did it take him to heal someone to finally recognize him? Or did everyone I just mention get killed previous somehow or just die off and nobody remembers the Gallant Man who served Ecthelion?
Thoughts?


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## Alcuin (Aug 27, 2019)

Denethor knew who he was, and had determined who he was when he served his father as Thorongil.

Denethor was a year older than Aragorn. Imrahil of Dol Amroth was a few years older than either Denethor or Aragorn, and may well have remembered Thorongil, too. Imrahil also accepted Aragorn as the rightful king by the end of the Battle of Pelennor Fields, though he never indicates that he remembers Thorongil.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 27, 2019)

The question that immediately comes to mind is, had the author worked out that part of Aragorn's back story at this point? After all, as he himself said, when Strider first appeared at the Pony, he "had no more idea of who he was than had Frodo".


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## CirdanLinweilin (Aug 27, 2019)

Alcuin said:


> Denethor knew who he was, and had determined who he was when he served his father as Thorongil.
> 
> Denethor was a year older than Aragorn. Imrahil of Dol Amroth was a few years older than either Denethor or Aragorn, and may well have remembered Thorongil, too. Imrahil also accepted Aragorn as the rightful king by the end of the Battle of Pelennor Fields, though he never indicates that he remembers Thorongil.


Thanks Alcuin, but I was more musing the common Gondorian. Why'd it take so long? Surely some older folks would recognize his face as the same that he had serving Denethor's father...or did years of Rangering really do a number on his grill? XD



CL


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## Grond (Aug 27, 2019)

What person of that age would have seen him? Old people were rarely in the battle front. The only common people that would have seen him would have been in the Houses of Healing. The rest of the time, he would have been surrounded by his entourage.


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## CirdanLinweilin (Aug 27, 2019)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> The question that immediately comes to mind is, had the author worked out that part of Aragorn's back story at this point? After all, as he himself said, when Strider first appeared at the Pony, he "had no more idea of who he was than had Frodo".


Good point, Squint!




Grond said:


> What person of that age would have seen him? Old people were rarely in the battle front. The only common people that would have seen him would have been in the Houses of Healing. The rest of the time, he would have been surrounded by his entourage.


True enough!

CL


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 28, 2019)

Yes, IIRC almost all the women, children, and older people had left the city. It had been nearly forty years since Aragorn had been there, so it would be very unlikely that anyone would be around who could recognize him.


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## CirdanLinweilin (Aug 28, 2019)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Yes, IIRC almost all the women, children, and older people had left the city. It had been nearly forty years since Aragorn had been there, so it would be very unlikely that anyone would be around who could recognize him.


That's true, too, man I need to reread the whole book.

I was just wondering, Too bad it was a kinda lame question. 


CL


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 28, 2019)

Now, now, don't think that way -- I forget, or fail to notice, stuff all the time! For instance, we all just _assumed _you meant Aragorn, though he's not named in the thread title.


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## CirdanLinweilin (Aug 28, 2019)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Now, now, don't think that way -- I forget, or don't notice, stuff all the time! For instance, we all just _assumed _you meant Aragorn, though he's not named in the thread title.


Yeah, sorry, but yeah I was wondering about Aragorn and his entrance into Gondor. I didn't remember the time frame between serving Denethor's Father and The War of the Ring. That, and it's nearly end of day I posted this and wasn't really in the best mood emotionally.

Still though, thanks for answering, guys.



CL


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## Inziladun (Aug 28, 2019)

CirdanLinweilin said:


> That's true, too, man I need to reread the whole book.
> 
> I was just wondering, Too bad it was a kinda lame question.
> 
> ...


Not a lame question, I was recently leafing through the appendices wondering the same thing. Perhaps it is one big conspiracy and Imrahil is the true king somehow, he was the one that truly saved Faramir. _'Yet I believe that it came from the shadows above, for else his fever and sickness were not to be understood; since the wound was not deep or vital. How then do you read the matter?' _Yet Aragorn claims it could not have come from a Nazgûl or Faramir would have died that night.


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## CirdanLinweilin (Aug 28, 2019)

Inziladun said:


> Not a lame question, I was recently leafing through the appendices wondering the same thing. Perhaps it is one big conspiracy and Imrahil is the true king somehow, he was the one that truly saved Faramir. _'Yet I believe that it came from the shadows above, for else his fever and sickness were not to be understood; since the wound was not deep or vital. How then do you read the matter?' _Yet Aragorn claims it could not have come from a Nazgûl or Faramir would have died that night.


Maybe!



CL


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## Inziladun (Aug 28, 2019)

I am joking, but I always found Imrahil to be peculiar, he speaks more like an Elf or an Elf-lord than Aragorn, like the High Elves if they were speaking in a common tongue.


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## Gothmog (Aug 28, 2019)

CirdanLinweilin said:


> I just thought of this? Would they have? Especially the older gentlemen and women?
> 
> Why did it take him to heal someone to finally recognize him? Or did everyone I just mention get killed previous somehow or just die off and nobody remembers the Gallant Man who served Ecthelion?
> Thoughts?


You actually have two separate questions here. It is possible that some would recognise him as Thorongil who served once in the army of Gondor but at the time he did this Aragorn was not making any claims as to his lineage.

When Aragorn then came to Minas Tirith during the war of the Ring he would not press his claim until the war was finished so was not seen by most Gondorians. He went into the houses of healing in disguise so as not to be recognised. It was only that he was able to heal those who could not be healed by lesser skills that brought about his being recognised as "The rightful King"


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## Alcuin (Aug 28, 2019)

We might expand this to ask, _Did Théoden recognize Aragorn as Thorondor?_ After all, before he served Ecthelion Steward of Minas Tirith, he served Thengel King of Rohan. Théoden would have been nine when Thorongil arrived in Meduseld, and if Thorongil spent about half his time in Rohan and half in Gondor, Théoden would have been about twenty when Thorongil left for Gondor. From all accounts, it seems Théoden was a vigorous and actively-involved crown prince: he would surely have known Thorongil, who was likely one of his father’s reliable servants; moreover, the Lord of Lossarnach was probably Théoden’s uncle (his mother was Morwen of Lossarnach, making Théoden and Forlong the Fat first cousins), he was born in Gondor, and it seems reasonable that, before his father died and affairs kept him in Rohan, he would visit Gondor from time to time, where Thorongil was in service to Ecthelion until Théoden became king aged thirty-two. Moreover, Aragorn himself tells Éomer that he has “ridden with the host of the Rohirrim, though under other name and in other guise. … I have spoken with Éomund your father, and with Théoden son of Thengel.” _Surely this claim was reported verbatim to Théoden!_ And if the Lords of the Rohirrim knew who he was, this must also have become known to the nobles of Gondor as well, at least in the days following the victory on the Field of Pelennor. By the time the Army of Gondor returned from the Black Gate, perhaps many of the older inhabitants of Minas Tirith had wracked their memories to recall a young Thorondor and the battle on the quays of Umbar.


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## Grond (Aug 28, 2019)

Somewhere in the appendices it speaks of Denethor being jealous of the attention his father was paying to Thorongil and that was why Aragorn decided it was time to skee-daddle. I'll post the reference later. It's somewhere in here!


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## Grond (Aug 28, 2019)

Ahhhhh! Here it is:
Indeed [Denethor] was as like to Thorongil as to one of nearest kin, and yet was ever placed second to the stranger in the hearts of men and the esteem of his father. At the time many thought that Thorongil had departed before his rival became his master, though indeed Thorongil had never himself vied with Denethor, nor held himself higher than the servant of his father. And in one matter only were their counsels to the Steward at variance: Thorongil often warned Ecthelion not to put trust in Saruman the White in Isengard, but to welcome rather Gandalf the Grey. But there was little love between Denethor and Gandalf; and after the days of Ecthelion there was less welcome for the Grey Pilgrim in Minas Tirith. Therefore later, when all was made clear, many believed that Denethor, who was subtle in mind and looked further and deeper than other men of his day, had discovered who this stranger Thorongil in truth was, and suspected that he and Mithrandir designed to supplant him.

_The Return of the King_, LoTR Appendix A, _Annals of the Kings and Rulers: Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion: The Stewards_


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 28, 2019)

Well, nuts -- you got that in there while I was laboriously typing it out one-fingered on my phone, so I deleted it.

I will restore my PS: Nice collection there, Grond -- I'm turning green!


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## Olorgando (Aug 28, 2019)

Taking the term „folks“ from the question to mean the non-aristocracy, I kind of doubt it. In terms of later (?) times up to and including our own, Aragorn was a mercenary – and that means quite preoccupied with things military. As per Foster’s “Guide”: “In 2980 [TA], a small fleet of Gondor, led by Thorongil, attacked Umbar in a surprise raid and burnt many of the ships of the corsairs.” Aragorn in disguise as Thorongil would not have been going to “pubs” and mixing with the locals. The situation in Gondor, and never mind Minas Tirith, was quite different to the largely depopulated Arnor, where Aragorn could acquire the (nick-) name of “Strider” at the “Prancing Pony” in the hamlet of Bree – unthinkable in Gondor. He would have been more of a rumor to “folks” there.


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## CirdanLinweilin (Aug 28, 2019)

Olorgando said:


> Taking the term „folks“ from the question to mean the non-aristocracy, I kind of doubt it. In terms of later (?) times up to and including our own, Aragorn was a mercenary – and that means quite preoccupied with things military. As per Foster’s “Guide”: “In 2980 [TA], a small fleet of Gondor, led by Thorongil, attacked Umbar in a surprise raid and burnt many of the ships of the corsairs.” Aragorn in disguise as Thorongil would not have been going to “pubs” and mixing with the locals. The situation in Gondor, and never mind Minas Tirith, was quite different to the largely depopulated Arnor, where Aragorn could acquire the (nick-) name of “Strider” at the “Prancing Pony” in the hamlet of Bree – unthinkable in Gondor. He would have been more of a rumor to “folks” there.


That makes sense. 


CL


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 28, 2019)

In any event, I hadn't really considered the question before, so thanks, CL, for bringing it up.


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## Alcuin (Aug 28, 2019)

> At the time many thought that Thorongil had departed before his rival became his master, though indeed Thorongil had never himself vied with Denethor, nor held himself higher than the servant of his father. And in one matter only were their counsels to the Steward at variance… [L]ater, when all was made clear, many believed that Denethor, who was subtle in mind and looked further and deeper than other men of his day, had discovered who this stranger Thorongil in truth was, and suspected that he and Mithrandir designed to supplant him.


“At the time…” sounds to me as if the rumor mill was speculating on Thorongil’s sudden departure, foregoing a great celebration after an important victory. “[L]ater, when all was made clear,” sounds as if people who remembered the incident – Imrahil, other members of the Council of Gondor, high-ranking officers (like Húrin of the Keys, if he was old enough), gave the matter of Thorongil’s departure second thoughts, deciding that perhaps their initial opinions were in error. Which might not be a bad decision, given that Thorongil was now King Aragorn Elessar.

It also means that there _were_ people who knew and remembered Thorongil, and that after Aragorn’s crowning, the fact that he had earlier served Gondor in the guise of Thorongil was no longer a secret: it became widely known. And why not? that the King loved Gondor and had served her before, not holding himself higher than Ecthelion’s servant, was good statesmanship and good public relations. Forty years had passed, but the Dúnedain were long-lived, and forty years, though perhaps half a lifetime, meant that a large number of people remembered Thorongil: his victory over the dreaded Corsairs was probably known throughout the kingdom. Aragorn’s sudden appearance at the critical moment of the Battle of Pelennor, followed by his departure leading the Host of the West only three days later, reduces the question to this: who in Minas Tirith remained that remembered Thorongil and realized that he and Aragorn were one and the same before news of the Downfall of the Lord of the Rings reached Minas Tirith? Denethor certainly, but Denethor was dead by his own hand, felled by his jealousy for power and position. I’d be willing to bet on the Rohirrim repeating what they’d overheard from Éomer and Théoden spreading the news among the folk of Gondor.


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## CirdanLinweilin (Aug 28, 2019)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> In any event, I hadn't really considered the question before, so thanks, CL, for bringing it up.


Welcome.



CL


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## Olorgando (Aug 28, 2019)

No quibbles with your argument, Alcuin. But I must harp on the term “folks” in the question, which I took to mean the non-aristocracy.

“At the time many thought that Thorongil had departed before his rival became his master …”

Who were these “many”? Many of the aristocracy? I would think so, as such delicate details of rivalries or disagreements of any sort among the ruling “elite” would be kept by them as a tightly held secret. No tabloids circulating in Minas Tirith, for certain (and even today, I would assume that the tabloids only get a hold of a fraction of the “dirt” on the “elites” – and higher-ups in publishing, especially owners, publishers, somethings-in-chief, often being – or at least aspiring to being – part of the “elites” might be able to stifle a good portion of what got dug out). 

I’ll freely concede that calling “Thorongil” merely a rumor to “folks” there breaks down badly. Upon rereading my post, I notice that my quote about the Umbar raid pretty badly shoots my rumor argument in the foot. I could imagine some sort of “welcome parade” for the raiding party after that spectacular coup. But I would also guess that such things were rare occasions. And all except those quite close to the parade route would only get a far-off view of the victorious captain “Thorongil” – and even those closer by would only get a rather fleeting glimpse.

So as to “folks” being actually to “recognize” Aragorn as the returned – and definitely somewhat aged – “Thorongil” before the actual final defeat of Sauron and the coronation, I remain highly skeptical.


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## CirdanLinweilin (Aug 28, 2019)

Can I just say that it's nice to get so much discussion on my little humble topic? 😊☺


CL


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## Olorgando (Aug 28, 2019)

CirdanLinweilin said:


> Can I just say that it's nice to get so much discussion on my little humble topic? 😊☺


Well, you certainly picked one with one of the prime requisites to start speculation flying: suitably ambiguous wording in the original JRRT texts!  
Though it might have been even better if you had managed to state your _*question*_ more ambiguously.


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## CirdanLinweilin (Aug 28, 2019)

Olorgando said:


> Well, you certainly picked one with one of the prime requisites to start speculation flying: suitably ambiguous wording in the original JRRT texts!
> Though it might have been even better if you had managed to state your _*question*_ more ambiguously.


I will take that into consideration for next time, then.  


CL


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## Grond (Aug 29, 2019)

Olorgando said:


> Taking the term „folks“ from the question to mean the non-aristocracy, I kind of doubt it. In terms of later (?) times up to and including our own, Aragorn was a mercenary – and that means quite preoccupied with things military. As per Foster’s “Guide”: “In 2980 [TA], a small fleet of Gondor, led by Thorongil, attacked Umbar in a surprise raid and burnt many of the ships of the corsairs.” Aragorn in disguise as Thorongil would not have been going to “pubs” and mixing with the locals. The situation in Gondor, and never mind Minas Tirith, was quite different to the largely depopulated Arnor, where Aragorn could acquire the (nick-) name of “Strider” at the “Prancing Pony” in the hamlet of Bree – unthinkable in Gondor. He would have been more of a rumor to “folks” there.


I take exception to the term mercenary. He was serving as a leader in the military of two countries to which he held a claim of lordship albeit that it was secret and unknown to them. The books indicate that both Ecthelion II and Thengel viewed him as an ally and leader, not a "soldier for hire"!


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## Alcuin (Aug 29, 2019)

I wonder if Ecthelion recognized Thorongil/Aragorn as a Northern Dúnadan? He was wearing the Star of the Dúnedain, from which he took his cognomen, Thorongil: “Eagle of the Star”. That star pinned the cloaks of all the Rangers of Arnor: it was their military badge or insignia. Aragorn and Denethor looked as if they were near kin: it should have been hard to miss that he was a Dúnadan, well-educated, and as highly cultured as the nobility of Gondor. No wonder Denethor was suspicious of his origins.


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## Olorgando (Aug 29, 2019)

Grond said:


> … The books indicate that both Ecthelion II and Thengel viewed him as an ally and leader, not a "soldier for hire"!



Leader, yes, but ally? So to speak a single general? (Though “Captain” seems to have been the operative term at the time). For me ally implies someone who leads his own troops and adds their strength to that of the other troops.

And “mercenary” may have slightly different, especially historical, connotations in German and English, especially American English. Those Hessian troops rented out by the ruler of Hesse (he seems to have been lousy at finances - but that was rather par for the course of rulers of the time) to George III of England to fight against those west-Atlantic rebels were certainly mercenaries (how that ruler of Hesse had gathered them in the first place is another matter). But armies as became the norm until a while after WW II, when many countries opted for all-volunteer armies, did not exist before the American, or more precisely the French Revolution. The Levée en masse instituted by the latter was probably the first conscription army. Before that, most troops of any sort were mercenaries, especially in wartime. The German term “Söldner” seems to me as dual native speaker to carry a bit less of a negative connotation, though it has also gone downhill in German as far as being seen as in any way respectable.

Perhaps a (western) historical figure who comes closest to “Thorongil” would be Albrecht von Wallenstein “a Bohemian military leader and statesman who fought on the Catholic side during the Thirty Years' War” (Wikipedia). Ah, and Wiki also states that Wallenstein “ … embarked on a career as a military contractor (!!!) …”. A bit of “Thorongil” and Denethor here too, as he was “… released from service in 1630 after Ferdinand (Holy Roman Emperor) grew wary of his ambition.” Was called back, still dissatisfied, and even seems to have considered allying with the Protestants against his former allies – which got him assassinated with the approval of HRE Ferdinand. OK, the analogue breaks down severely here.

But the main point is, at this time in the 17th century, being a mercenary especially at this level was quite respectable. Now “Thorongil” did not bring any troops with him that we know of. And he must have been more mysterious than the well-known Wallenstein (what *did* he tell Ecthelion II and Thengel where he came from?!?).


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 29, 2019)

Alcuin, the somewhat oblique descriptions of Aragorn during his "foreign service" days should be kept in mind, I think. The narrator of the Tale has this, for instance:

_His ways were hard and long, and he became somewhat grim to look upon, unless he chanced to smile; and yet he seemed to Men worthy of honour, as a king that is in exile, when he did not hide his true shape. For he went in many guises, and won renown under many names_.

I believe Aragorn uses this word "guises" in the text also, aside from the famous instance of the Palantir in TT. The scanty evidence seems to point to an ability to "disguise" himself that goes beyond what we might consider normal. Frodo in fact uses that term, in his conversation with him at the Pony, though the reader is given no real indication of it. The symbols of masks and disguise run through the work, something perhaps worth exploring. *

For now, I'd say that it's possible that Ecthelion might have penetrated the "disguise", or even that Aragorn might have revealed his true identity to him; that seems doubtful to me though, as it would, bearing in mind the text Grond posted, mean that Ecthelion withheld the knowledge from his son. He might conceivably do so to try to restrain Denethor's jealousy, if that were openly displayed, but again, it strikes me as doubtful.

I would agree that "mercenary" is the wrong word to apply to Aragorn; mercenaries fight for pay and (in former times) for spoils. I seriously doubt those were motivating factors for him. The Tale of Years calls his adventures during this period "errantries", the normal term for the trials of the romance hero.



Inziladun said:


> I am joking, but I always found Imrahil to be peculiar, he speaks more like an Elf or an Elf-lord than Aragorn, like the High Elves if they were speaking in a common tongue.



Tolkien discussed his difficulties in rendering different modes of speech, in the Appendices and Letters. In fact, we talked about it a bit on this thread:









A Favorite Passage


Excellent post, gentleDrift, and cogently set out! You suggested some things I hadn't even considered, which is exactly what I was hoping for! My service is out (again!:mad:), but I hope to get back soon to continue this interesting discussion. I have time for just two comments: Apt...




www.thetolkienforum.com





Way off topic, but speaking of TT, at my local box o' books sale this morning, I picked up a 12th printing (1967) copy of the Ballantine edition -- another one for the stack. Not mint, but nice enough, if not for a crow, at least a "caw". 

* Exploration now begun: 








Masks and Disguise


Several recent threads have made me decide to bring up this subject, one I've been mulling over for several years, with no result, so this not an essay or argument, but a request for input. Northrop Frye begins his essay on literary symbols with the observation that, whenever we read anything...




www.thetolkienforum.com


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## Grond (Aug 29, 2019)

Olorgando said:


> Leader, yes, but ally? So to speak a single general? (Though “Captain” seems to have been the operative term at the time). For me ally implies someone who leads his own troops and adds their strength to that of the other troops.
> 
> And “mercenary” may have slightly different, especially historical, connotations in German and English, especially American English. Those Hessian troops rented out by the ruler of Hesse (he seems to have been lousy at finances - but that was rather par for the course of rulers of the time) to George III of England to fight against those west-Atlantic rebels were certainly mercenaries (how that ruler of Hesse had gathered them in the first place is another matter). But armies as became the norm until a while after WW II, when many countries opted for all-volunteer armies, did not exist before the American, or more precisely the French Revolution. The Levée en masse instituted by the latter was probably the first conscription army. Before that, most troops of any sort were mercenaries, especially in wartime. The German term “Söldner” seems to me as dual native speaker to carry a bit less of a negative connotation, though it has also gone downhill in German as far as being seen as in any way respectable.
> 
> ...


Historically, mercenaries have been largely seen and used as shock troops. The main reason being that their loyalty can't be counted upon since they are "hired" and are not "cause driven". The main fear being that if the other side pays more money, the mercenaries will simply "flip" sides. 

Aragorn seemed to be anything but a mercenary when he is described in Appendix A as follows,
"...and yet he seemed to Men worthy of honour, as a king that is in exile, when he did not hide his true shape. For he went in many guises, and won renown under many names. He rode in the host of the Rohirrim, and fought for the Lord of Gondor by land and by sea…"

and we also have this from the same source:
"...In much that he did he had the aid and advice of a great captain whom he loved above all. Thorongil men called him in Gondor, the Eagle of the Star, for he was swift and keen-eyed, and wore a silver star upon his cloak; but no one knew his true name nor in what land he was born. He came to Ecthelion from Rohan, where he had served the King Thengel, but he was not one of the Rohirrim. He was a great leader of men, by land or by sea, but he departed into the shadows whence he came, before the days of Ecthelion were ended..." 

I would define Aragorn in Thorongil guise as an ally. Here's the Webster dictionary definition of ally:
An *ally* is someone that aligns with and supports a cause with another individual or group of people. 

Just my humble opinion....


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## Olorgando (Aug 29, 2019)

I’m definitely not going to argue with Webster’s!  My parents used to have a three-volume one. Bad call of mine when I let it go after my mother died. 😞

OK, I’ll drop mercenary, the term does not fit.

But as to ally, I’d bet that Webster’s (the US equivalent to the OED – and it was founded by Noah W, not Daniel W) has several finely differentiated examples for different occasions and / or situations. Maybe a classical case of small alliance is within a company, when it could take a handful or less of people to get something rolling, have it made policy etc. There a single person joining an alliance can very much be a highly valued addition. In the military terms we’re talking about here, Rohan was an ally of Gondor and vice versa. The Last Alliance of Elves and Men at the end of the Second Age. Tar-Minastir sending help to Gil-galad in the year 1700 SA in the first “War of the Rings” against Sauron, that kind of thing. From what seems to have been written, “Thorongil” was a solo performer, more of a consultant (who was mighty handy with a sword – argh! now at this time it couldn’t have been Narsil, could it?!? – himself for tight spots). That the Grey Company led by Halbarad joined Aragorn at the climax of the Third Age was a sign of the finality of the struggle at hand. So valuable as “Thorongil” may have been to Thengel and then Ecthelion II, he was not an ally in the military sense of providing battle power with battalions upon battalions.

S-eS in his above post mentioned that “[Aragorn] went in many guises, and won renown under many names.” Many names yet, so not just “Thorongil”. Now he used a pseudonym. How did the rest of hi (dis-) guise look like? Maybe I’m thinking (far) too modern to be thinking of CVs, but I’m sure he just didn’t pop up at Meduseld and Thengel made him, oh I don’t know, a “two-star general” (I think that he served Rohan first seems clear from the chronology). Depending on how young he still was – his “precise” times of service in Rohan and then Gondor are not stated, I believe, only his “quitting service” in 2980 TA, which would be the precise year of the successful “guerrilla” raid on Umbar – “Thorongil” could have started quite a bit down the command chain. It would make sense for him to rise rapidly in Rohan, and that would then give him a “Rohan CV” with which to “apply” in Gondor. Rohan may also not have been quite so “paranoid” about “background checks” (limited ability to do so probably being a major reason) as Gondor. And they could very well have “recognized” him as some sort of Dúnadan due to his resemblance to the Gondorians (“they have some relatives way back up north-west, don’t they?” He certainly does not seem to have resembled a typical Dunlending!)

So, I’ve dumped the untenable mercenary. But Aragorn actually only became an ally in my (nitpicky) sense when he led that fleet up from Pelargir.
_(I think I need a beer now!)_


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## Aldarion (Aug 29, 2019)

Olorgando said:


> Leader, yes, but ally? So to speak a single general? (Though “Captain” seems to have been the operative term at the time). For me ally implies someone who leads his own troops and adds their strength to that of the other troops.
> 
> And “mercenary” may have slightly different, especially historical, connotations in German and English, especially American English. Those Hessian troops rented out by the ruler of Hesse (he seems to have been lousy at finances - but that was rather par for the course of rulers of the time) to George III of England to fight against those west-Atlantic rebels were certainly mercenaries (how that ruler of Hesse had gathered them in the first place is another matter). But armies as became the norm until a while after WW II, when many countries opted for all-volunteer armies, did not exist before the American, or more precisely the French Revolution. The Levée en masse instituted by the latter was probably the first conscription army. Before that, most troops of any sort were mercenaries, especially in wartime. The German term “Söldner” seems to me as dual native speaker to carry a bit less of a negative connotation, though it has also gone downhill in German as far as being seen as in any way respectable.
> 
> ...



Actually, most armies - historically speaking - were either levies or professional troops. Mercenaries are pretty much an exception, and only really appear in context of highly formalized warfare between societies with more money than what they know what to do with.

To take a look:
Roman Republic - conscription army, followed by a standing professional army post-Marian Reforms
Roman Empire (1th - 7th c) - professional army
Roman Empire (7th - 11th c) - semi-professional army of thematic troops, backed up by professional core and mercenaries later on
Roman Empire (11th - 15th c) - professional army with increasing reliance on mercenaries
medieval Europe (4th c on) - tribal armies, followed by semi-professional feudal troops backed up by levees (conscripts)
early-modernity Europe (15th c on) - semi-professional feudal troops (_banderium - banners_) and fully-professional standing armies made up of mercenaries (e.g. Black Army of Hungary)
modern Europe (17th century or so) - fully professional armies, either mercenaries or national
modern Europe (late 18th century - 21st century) - professional and/or conscript national armies

I would suggest avoiding parallels with 17th century Europe. That being said, the state that Gondor is based on - Roman Empire of Byzantine period - very definitely did use mercenaries. These however were, with few (catastrophic) exceptions, used as personal security and as auxilliaries, while the core of the army remained Roman (whether conscript, semi-professional or fully professional). That being said, there were more than few contractors/mercenaries, but they were not exactly usual. And Aragorn does not appear to have been a mercenary. If there is any historical figure I would draw Thorongil parallel with, it would be Stilicho; though there may well be more fitting candidates.


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## Grond (Oct 11, 2019)

Okay... I'm back with a different thought. Did Ecthelion recognize Aragorn as the heir of Elendil? it's clear that Denethor saw him as a rival rather than as an ally/friend. It is also stated in the appendices that Denethor likely had recognized Thorongil's true identity. Ecthelion would certainly have had insight equal to his son so it is likely many not only recognized Aragorn later but also recognized his background was when he assisting Ecthelion


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## Olorgando (Oct 12, 2019)

Highly speculative territory. It kind of depends of what kind of communications existed between Gondor and Arnor / Arthedain / the chieftains. Or between Gondor and the Elven realms. While Lothlórien was by far the closest, it was a kind of Third Age Doriath, with Galadriel being able to fence it off with something vaguely resembling the Girdle of Melian (appropriate, as the former had been tutored and mentored by the latter in the First Age). Thranduil's realm was very far away, and on the "wrong" side of the Anduin (and those paths through Mirkwood getting trickier all the time) - and stretching comparisons a bit, something of a Third Age Nargothrond. While Rivendell was a bit closer (and Elrond of course extended family), there was the matter of going around or crossing the Misty Mountains. And while Cirdan was furthest away for pure distance, communications by ship (by far the fastest mode of transportation of the day) might have made him most accessible. It was by sending a fleet captained by Gondor's crown prince Eärnur that the Witch-king was finally defeated and driven from the North Kingdom - just a tad late.
And anyway the go-to guy for information would certainly have been Elrond, into whose keeping the heirlooms of the North Kingdom were given, and the chieftains' heirs possibly given fosterage (at least it was so with Aragorn II, whose father had been killed when he was two).
Now when Aragorn II undertook his great journeys and errantries (occasionally accompanied by his new-found friend Gandalf) from 2957 to 2980, between the ages of 26 and 49, the North Kingdom had fallen for about a thousand years - and there had been Ruling Stewards in Gondor for over 900. Did Elrond keep totally mum about the chieftains as heirs of Isildur? Or did he only inform the Gondorian Kings and then Ruling Stewards under strictest confidence? Family resemblances can grow awfully thin after a millennium (though JRRT in his "genetics" did allow such things). Recognizing "Thorongil" as someone of Númenórean descent, even high descent, might have been relatively easy. Though if any northern rangers before Aragorn II ever made any trips as far as Gondor, and when - who knows? The had become a dwindling folk, and still had plenty of nasties to deal with in their region even after the departure of the Witch-king. Perhaps not, as it was in the time of Aragorn II that Sauron declared himself openly, in 2951 - ten years after he had abandoned Dol Guldur, and when ('Estel') Aragorn II was 20 and had his true name and ancestry revealed to him by Elrond. Thing were coming to a crisis in this time, and there had been foresight by several people that Aragorn II was going to be the heir of Isildur to face this crisis.


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## Grond (Oct 12, 2019)

Olorgando said:


> Highly speculative territory. It kind of depends of what kind of communications existed between Gondor and Arnor / Arthedain / the chieftains. Or between Gondor and the Elven realms. While Lothlórien was by far the closest, it was a kind of Third Age Doriath, with Galadriel being able to fence it off with something vaguely resembling the Girdle of Melian (appropriate, as the former had been tutored and mentored by the latter in the First Age). Thranduil's realm was very far away, and on the "wrong" side of the Anduin (and those paths through Mirkwood getting trickier all the time) - and stretching comparisons a bit, something of a Third Age Nargothrond. While Rivendell was a bit closer (and Elrond of course extended family), there was the matter of going around or crossing the Misty Mountains. And while Cirdan was furthest away for pure distance, communications by ship (by far the fastest mode of transportation of the day) might have made him most accessible. It was by sending a fleet captained by Gondor's crown prince Eärnur that the Witch-king was finally defeated and driven from the North Kingdom - just a tad late.
> And anyway the go-to guy for information would certainly have been Elrond, into whose keeping the heirlooms of the North Kingdom were given, and the chieftains' heirs possibly given fosterage (at least it was so with Aragorn II, whose father had been killed when he was two).
> Now when Aragorn II undertook his great journeys and errantries (occasionally accompanied by his new-found friend Gandalf) from 2957 to 2980, between the ages of 26 and 49, the North Kingdom had fallen for about a thousand years - and there had been Ruling Stewards in Gondor for over 900. Did Elrond keep totally mum about the chieftains as heirs of Isildur? Or did he only inform the Gondorian Kings and then Ruling Stewards under strictest confidence? Family resemblances can grow awfully thin after a millennium (though JRRT in his "genetics" did allow such things). Recognizing "Thorongil" as someone of Númenórean descent, even high descent, might have been relatively easy. Though if any northern rangers before Aragorn II ever made any trips as far as Gondor, and when - who knows? The had become a dwindling folk, and still had plenty of nasties to deal with in their region even after the departure of the Witch-king. Perhaps not, as it was in the time of Aragorn II that Sauron declared himself openly, in 2951 - ten years after he had abandoned Dol Guldur, and when ('Estel') Aragorn II was 20 and had his true name and ancestry revealed to him by Elrond. Thing were coming to a crisis in this time, and there had been foresight by several people that Aragorn II was going to be the heir of Isildur to face this crisis.


But Gandalf was welcome in Gondor at this time. Unlike Denethor who preferred Saruman, it is insinuated that Ecthelion might have been more inclined to Gandalf.


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## Alcuin (Oct 12, 2019)

Grond said:


> But Gandalf was welcome in Gondor at this time. Unlike Denethor who preferred Saruman, it is insinuated that Ecthelion might have been more inclined to Gandalf.


I don’t think Denethor trusted Saruman: I think he probably knew about the military buildup in Isengard and regarded him as did Gandalf and Aragorn: as a traitor. Denethor was no fool, and Saruman held Orthanc as a fiefdom of Gondor, which through his military and political machinations he had betrayed. Denethor was undoubtedly aware of this though his palantír alone if by no other means. 

Denethor _mistrusted_ Gandalf’s motives. He did not necessarily dislike Gandalf, nor did he spurn his advice and counsel until the very end in the Hallows: but by then, his mind had been overthrown. 

Denethor probably discerned the true identity of Thorongil while Thorongil still served his father Ecthelion, though he probably did not discover his name. If Gandalf passed through Minas Tirith in those years, as he may well have done, Denethor probably noticed that they were acquainted with one another, or that they were on good terms. Putting two and two together, as the saying goes, he would soon determine that Gandalf was angling to restore the House of Elendil to the throne of Gondor – and the rule of Gondor was Denethor’s ambition! 

Yes, Denethor was jealous. Yes, he was ambitious. Yes, he believed he was _entitled_ to rule Gondor in his own right, and this last bit of possessiveness led to pride and arrogance that eventually overcame his better judgment and reason. 

Denethor did not despise Gandalf: he just didn’t like his purposes! Those interfered with his own goals, goals that frankly involved a rejection of his fidelity as steward rather than hereditary sovereign. He was angry with Gandalf, too: Gandalf sent the Ring into Mordor to be destroyed; in council Gandalf stated clearly he did not trust Denethor with the Ring; their initial reconnection (in the chapter “Minas Tirith”) was driven by Gandalf’s suspicions that Denethor, like Saruman, had gone over to Sauron, which Denethor probably took as an insult. Denethor _never_ went over to Sauron, but he did succumb to Sauron’s lies and subterfuge. Denethor never betrayed Gondor by *co*mission: he betrayed Gondor by *o*mission, first in rejecting the rightful claim of Aragorn to rule, then in killing himself instead of fulfilling his duty. 

But there is no evidence, so far as I can find, that Denethor had any preference for Saruman or trusted him in any way. He was not surprised when Gandalf informed him that he had broken Saruman’s staff, or that Théoden had won a great victory in the west at Helm’s Deep: Denethor already knew these things. Denethor might not have trusted Gandalf’s _motives_ – Gandalf _was_ helping Aragorn claim the throne of Gondor! – but he seems to have trusted Gandalf’s advice. Nobody trusted Saruman anymore at this point, not even Théoden.


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## Grond (Oct 12, 2019)

Alcuin said:


> I don’t think Denethor trusted Saruman: I think he probably knew about the military buildup in Isengard and regarded him as did Gandalf and Aragorn: as a traitor. Denethor was no fool, and Saruman held Orthanc as a fiefdom of Gondor, which through his military and political machinations he had betrayed. Denethor was undoubtedly aware of this though his palantír alone if by no other means.
> 
> Denethor _mistrusted_ Gandalf’s motives. He did not necessarily dislike Gandalf, nor did he spurn his advice and counsel until the very end in the Hallows: but by then, his mind had been overthrown.
> 
> ...


Denethor welcomed Saruman in Gondor, Gandalf was not. I'll get you the quotes from ROTK.


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## Olorgando (Oct 13, 2019)

Grond said:


> Denethor welcomed Saruman in Gondor, Gandalf was not. I'll get you the quotes from ROTK.


This says nothing about Denethor's (initial) attitude towards Saruman, but it is of "historical" interest:
RoTK Appendix B "The Tale of Years" section "The Third Age"
2759: Death of Helm ["Hammerhand" King of Rohan, during the Long Winter]. Fréaláf drives out Wulf [half-Dunlending usurper, from Edoras], and begins second line of Kings of the Mark. Saruman takes up his abode in Isengard.
Isengard had not been part of the gift of Cirion to Eorl which led to the founding of Rohan, but had been explicitly retained as belonging to Gondor. Ruling Steward in Gondor at this time was Beren (2743-2763). That's seven generations back from Denethor (by contrast, Aragorn II's Chieftain ancestor of the time was "only" five generations back).


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## Grond (Oct 13, 2019)

Grond said:


> Denethor welcomed Saruman in Gondor, Gandalf was not. I'll get you the quotes from ROTK.


I doubt Denethor trusted anyone, especially after he became Steward and had access to the Store. He would have been far more enlightened to both Gandalf's and Saruman's motivations. It is evident that the folks of Gondor always (up until the time of Denethor) had a cooperative relationship with Saruman. Heck, they gave him Orthanc for criminy's sake. It was just as apparent from the texts that Gandalf was unwelcome in Gondor during Denethor's Stewardship. What was my point here???


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## Alcuin (Oct 14, 2019)

The Tale of Years (Appendix B) says for Third Age 2953, 

Last meeting of the White Council. They debate the Rings. Saruman feigns that he has discovered that the One Ring has passed down Anduin to the Sea. Saruman withdraws to Isengard, which he takes as his own, and fortifies it. Being jealous and afraid of Gandalf, he sets spies to watch all his movements, and notes his interest in the Shire. He soon begins to keep agents in Bree and the Southfarthing.​”*Saruman withdraws to Isengard.*” He didn’t come out to visit Rohan or Gondor again: he _withdrew_ from Men and Elves, and withdrew from his responsibilities and allegiances. From that point forward, Saruman was a traitor to Gondor by law and by pledge. He was a traitor to the White Council and the Valar by mission. And he was a traitor to Eru because he turned to the path of Sauron and Morgoth. He did not visit Minas Tirith again: we know this and can date it because he “withdr[ew] to Isengard”. 

In “The House of Eorl” in Appendix A, Tolkien writes, 
It was at the crowning of Fréaláf that Saruman appeared, bringing gifts, and speaking great praise of the valor of the Rohirrim. All thought him a welcome guest. Soon after he took up his abode in Isengard. For this, Beren, Steward of Gondor, gave him leave, for Gondor still claimed Isengard as a fortress of its realm, and not part of Rohan. Beren also gave into Saruman’s keeping the keys of Orthanc. That tower no enemy had been able to harm or to enter.

In this way Saruman began to behave as a lord of Men; for at first he held Isengard as a lieutenant of the Steward and warden of the tower. But Fréaláf was as glad as Beren to have this so, and to know that Isengard was in the hands of a strong friend. A friend he long seemed, and maybe in the beginning he was one in truth. Though afterwards there was little doubt in men’s minds that Saruman went to Isengard in hope to find the Stone still there, and with the purpose of building up a power of his own. Certainly after the last White Council (2953) his designs towards Rohan, though he hid them, were evil. He then took Isengard for his own and began to make it a place of guarded strength and fear, as though to rival the Barad-dûr. His friends and servants he drew then from all who hated Gondor and Rohan, whether Men or other creatures more evil. ​In 2953, Fengel was crowned King of Rohan. His son was Thengel, and Thengel’s son was Théoden. Of Thengel, Appendix A says,
When Fengel died the Rohirrim recalled [Thengel, who was living in Gondor], and he returned unwillingly. … It was soon after Thengel’s return that Saruman declared himself Lord of Isengard and began to give trouble to Rohan, encroaching on its borders and supporting its enemies.​Fengel died in 2980, so it was either that year or the next “that Saruman declared himself Lord of Isengard and began to give trouble to Rohan,” making himself a public enemy not only of Rohan, but an enemy and traitor to Gondor: Gondor and Rohan lived in perpetual mutual alliance: According to the Oath of Eorl (and Cirion, as recounted in _Unfinished Tales_):
[The Heirs of Eorl] shall live in perpetual friendship with Gondor, and its enemies shall be their enemies while both realms endure. But the same bond shall be laid also on the people of Gondor.​Ecthelion II, Denethor’s father, became Steward of Gondor in 2953 and did not die until 2984. Before Ecthelion died, therefore, Saruman had already _declared_ himself a traitor to Gondor by “declar[ing] himself Lord of Isengard,” and to Rohan by “giv[ing it] trouble”. 

We may safely say three things.
Saruman never came to Minas Tirith during the stewardship of Denethor II. He was already in open defiance of Gondor and the rule of the Stewards before Ecthelion died, and in treasonous possession of Isengard, which was his only as a fiefdom.
Saruman _withdrew_ to Isengard in 2953. Théoden was born in Gondor in 2948. It is very likely Théoden never even met Saruman.
*No one* in Gondor or Rohan was in doubt about Saruman’s troublemaking.
*The question is, why did Gandalf not come sooner to suspect Saruman in light of his open hostility to Rohan and legal defiance of Gondor?
*​For my part, I have never before considered this question because I have never before considered the timeline of events. *Note also that Aragorn might have been aware of Saruman’s treachery, too:* he left Gondor in 2980 immediately following his attack on Umbar. He certainly knew that Saruman was no longer coming out of Isengard, and might have become aware that Isengard was increasingly unfriendly toward Rohan: that might be one reason he had never been there before his visit in _Two Towers_, and why Saruman was _fortuitously_ unaware that an Heir of Isildur yet lived – and thus also Sauron! 

But no, Grond, I must disagree (though I _do_ respect you): I don’t think Denethor ever welcomed Saruman to Minas Tirith. I doubt Ecthelion, who became steward in 2953, ever welcomed Saruman to Minas Tirith: Saruman _withdrew to Isengard_ when Ecthelion became steward. 

And one more thing: *The open defiance and hostility of Saruman might well explain some of Denethor’s distrust of Gandalf.* After all, the one wizard Gondor and Rohan really trusted and relied upon had betrayed them at a critical juncture in their struggle against Mordor, usurped possession of one of their most valuable assets, Isengard, and turned it against them. Radagast was unreliable, and Gandalf came and went as suited him. Look at it from Denethor’s perspective: _Those wizards: they can’t be trusted or relied upon!_


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## Grond (Oct 14, 2019)

Alcuin said:


> The Tale of Years (Appendix B) says for Third Age 2953,
> ​Last meeting of the White Council. They debate the Rings. Saruman feigns that he has discovered that the One Ring has passed down Anduin to the Sea. Saruman withdraws to Isengard, which he takes as his own, and fortifies it. Being jealous and afraid of Gandalf, he sets spies to watch all his movements, and notes his interest in the Shire. He soon begins to keep agents in Bree and the Southfarthing.​​”*Saruman withdraws to Isengard.*” He didn’t come out to visit Rohan or Gondor again: he _withdrew_ from Men and Elves, and withdrew from his responsibilities and allegiances. From that point forward, Saruman was a traitor to Gondor by law and by pledge. He was a traitor to the White Council and the Valar by mission. And he was a traitor to Eru because he turned to the path of Sauron and Morgoth. He did not visit Minas Tirith again: we know this and can date it because he “withdr[ew] to Isengard”.
> 
> In “The House of Eorl” in Appendix A, Tolkien writes,
> ...


I've already indicated that I agree that Denethor had seen through Saruman's guise. Ecthelion is a different story. Where does it say that Saruman never left Orthanc? You're reading way too much into your quotes. I'll remind you of his appearance in Fangorn. There is also the indication from Aragorn that Ecthelion should trust Gandalf rather than Saruman. This, to me, is a clear indication that Ecthelion likely welcomed Saruman into Gondor. Lastly, where would Saruman have gotten all of his "inside information" on the Ring, etc. if not from the annals and history recorded in Gondor?


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## Alcuin (Oct 14, 2019)

Fréaláf was crowned king of Rohan in 2759. “Saruman withdraws to Isengard” in 2953. That’s 194 years, almost two centuries, long enough to find the documents he needed, including the scroll of Isildur, which Gandalf found in less than 17 years. 

You are correct, however: Aragorn seems already to have grown suspicious of Saruman before he declared himself Lord of Isengard in 2980. 

I do not agree that I am “reading way too much into [my] quotes.” They are what they are, and they are all that we have to guide us in determining how Saruman acted, short of more (so far unpublished) notes by Tolkien. “Saruman withdraws to Isengard” doesn’t mean he never again came out: of course he left Isengard from time to time! It means he withdrew from further contacts with the “good” people of Middle-earth, from other members of the White Council (as far as we know, from Elrond, Galadriel, and Gandalf; if there are others, they are not mentioned), from further contact with (and accepting direction from!) Gondor, from friendly relations with his nearest allied neighbor Rohan, and probably from further contact with Treebeard. That in his anxious anticipation of obtaining the Ring he came forth to the borders of Fangorn, quite near his own realm, to meet his returning Orcs is not surprising: but as Gandalf noted, for once Saruman was too late, and the battle was over and beyond his help.


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## Grond (Oct 15, 2019)

Your assertion that Saruman no longer had any contact with the "good people" of middle Earth is an assumption on your part. You have your opinion, I have mine. My opinion is that you're reading a lot of your opinion as to the meaning and intent of the author. If Saruman was so withdrawn, why would Aragorn even have warned Ecthelion to place his trust in Gandalf. Using your line of thought, Ecthelion would have already know that Saruman was a scoundrel.


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## Olorgando (Oct 15, 2019)

Guys, calm down (and if you may be wondering why I'm so certain you're *guys* - I'm 63 and a guy myself 🙄 ).
From what JRRT actually *wrote*, both of your opinions are pretty much equally valid.
And from what both of you have posted, you've both *thought* before voicing your opinions ...
Where I definitely also get "less than gruntled" (to steal a P. G. Wodehouse terms I read somewhere, that has become one of my favorites) is when I have the feeling that pronouncements degenerate to to parrot level (not that I have anything against parrots as such; they seem to be exceptionally intelligent - for birds …)


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## Alcuin (Oct 15, 2019)

Fair enough for me. I have my opinion, and Grond has his. I will agree to disagree on this subject, bearing in mind Grond’s objections, with this last comment:

Saruman began _open_ rebellion against Gondor the year Aragorn left Ecthelion’s service. Grond is correct that Aragorn was already aware of Saruman’s treachery when he left Rohan and warned Ecthelion, who – not daring to use the palantír – did not yet recognize its import.


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## Grond (Oct 15, 2019)

We can bare our beaks and still be friends. Gothmog and I have had some knockdown drag-outs on this site but still are bestest buddies. I didn't mean to sound offensive... Just pressing my opinion 'cause I'm always right.😁😁😁


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## Alcuin (Oct 15, 2019)

Ah, Grond my friend: I take no offence! We might need that fence someplace else. 😁


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## CirdanLinweilin (Oct 15, 2019)

Alcuin said:


> Ah, Grond my friend: I take no offence! We might need that fence someplace else. 😁


Anyone know where Tom Sawyer is at? 







CL


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## Grond (Oct 15, 2019)

CirdanLinweilin said:


> Anyone know where Tom Sawyer is at?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


At a Rush concert I think. The rock group.


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## Olorgando (Oct 16, 2019)

Alcuin said:


> Ah, Grond my friend: I take no offence! We might need that fence someplace else. 😁


Fence. I have a nice little anecdote written by Konrad Lorenz, the Austrian zoologist, ethologist, and ornithologist - and Nobel Prize winner in 1973.
It's in his 1949 book "So kam der Mensch auf den Hund", English-language edition 1954 "Man Meets Dog", and something that actually happened to him while walking his dog.
Male dog. They always passed by a neighbor's property, properly fenced in, where the neighbor's male dog would almost invariably rush up to the fence, and while Lorenz and his dog walked along it to the end of the property the two pooches kept up a continuous "conversation" which one probably best translates as "§$%&@€µ#!!!".
So, one day, same procedure - until they suddenly come to a part where the fence had been removed for repairs.
The two pooches stared at this new, unexpected situation with some confusion, and in utter silence.
Then, as if on simultaneous command, they both ran back to a part where the fence was still standing and resumed their "§$%&@€µ#!!!" "conversation" through the fence ...
😄😅😆🤣🤪


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## Gothmog (Oct 16, 2019)

A (possibly) interesting variation on this story and one that involved the dog I had when I was a child. My family lived in a semi-detached house and next door also had a dog. The fence that separated our front gardens was approximately 4 ft. high. When the two dogs were both in the front garden they would spend somewhere between 10 and 30 mins running up and down the length of this fence barking at each other sounding like they wanted to rip each other apart. Then my dog would simply jump over the fence very easily and they would then spend some time playing quietly together. Next, my dog would jump back over to our garden and they would resume chasing up and down the fence.


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## Olorgando (Oct 16, 2019)

Short form being "fences make others distinct from us". They demarcate "mine" or "ours" from "your" or "theirs". Which reminds me that the 30th anniversary of the Berlin Wall is a little over three weeks away: Saturday, 09 November. Our "9/11" in the European (non-Anglophone?) style of writing dates. And for the Powers that Were in the former GDR, with somewhat more lasting negative consequences. Lots of such (generally much more imposing) "Berlin Walls" in Middle-earth. Thangorodrim above Angband. The Ered Lithui in the north, and Ephel Duath in the west and south of Mordor. Both sending out spurs that isolated "outer Mordor" from "inner Mordor", the plateau of Gorgoroth with Orodruin and Barad-dûr. The raising of the Pelóri wasn't quite the high point (pun - oh, never mind) of the Valinorean acts in Arda. On the other side, didn't JRRT write somewhere that Melkor raised what became known as the Misty Mountains way back, when he was still residing in Utumno and before the awakening of the Elves, as a hinderance to what he considered Oromë's annoying hikes, well, rides on his Valinorean Horse Nahar (possibly the ancestor of the Mearas of the Éothéod and later Rohirrim)? The ring of Isengard. The Girdle of Melian and its vaguely similar descendant that Galadriel managed for Lothlórien seem to have been rather on the invisible side. And even the Hobbits, at any rate the Brandybucks, with their High Hay separating their east-Brandywine Buckland from the Old Forest. I guess I could go on almost endlessly … (and writings about such stuff in the "real world" fills entire libraries). Time to hit the "Post reply" button! 😬


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