# Turgon



## octoburn (Aug 14, 2018)

If Turgon told no one about his company going to Gondolin, or about Gondolin itself, why is no one actively searching for him when he and his entire group of followers disappear?

Or, is there any reference to him telling anyone that he was leaving, but would not disclose where to?


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## Ithilethiel (Aug 15, 2018)

The elves did search for Turgon and so many of their "lost" kin. Not finding them they hoped Turgon and his followers would reappear when the need was greatest. Afterall, Turgon wasn't the first of the Noldor to go off to build a hidden kingdom (Doriath, Nargothrond).

But Gondolin so well hidden, whose entrances were guarded by the eagles of Manwe was never found (not counting Húrin and Huor who were brought there blindfolded) until Tuor under Ulmo's protection came to the Hidden Kingdom. _Unfinished Tales, (I) Of Tuor And His Coming to Gondolin_


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 15, 2018)

Of course, its location was found -- by Morgoth.

Hurin, released by him after years of captivity, standing "in despair before the silent cliffs of the Echoriath":

_'Turgon, Turgon, remember the Fen of Serech! O Turgon, will you not hear in your hidden halls?' But there was no sound but the wind in the dry grasses.
_
One of the most haunting scenes in the Silmarillion.

And the stinger:

_But Morgoth smiled. . ._


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## Ithilethiel (Aug 15, 2018)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Of course, its location was found -- by Morgoth.
> 
> Hurin, released by him after years of captivity, standing "in despair before the silent cliffs of the Echoriath":
> 
> ...



Yes, but that was after Tuor was successful in his mission. It was not Tuor, who betrayed Gondolin nor Húrin who unintentionally revealed to Morgorth the location of Gondolin. Rather it was Maeglin, the heir of Turgon when captured by orcs who with jealousy and love unrequited ultimately betrayed the location of the passages which eventually led to the downfall of the fairest of the Elven Hidden Kingdoms.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 15, 2018)

Very true. But, unless I'm remembering wrongly (quite possible -- it's been a while), it showed him where to look.


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## Ithilethiel (Aug 15, 2018)

True but that was not octoburn's question. He asked why none of his *kin* looked for him. Morgorth at the time of Turgon and his follower's disappearance knew not of Gondolin. So how could he be seeking for it then?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 15, 2018)

Well, no, I wasn't trying to answer the OP question. It's just that it reminded me of that scene.

OT, I know. . .


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## Ithilethiel (Aug 15, 2018)

Yup, OT


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 15, 2018)

Not that that ever happens here!


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## Ithilethiel (Aug 15, 2018)

Must you always have the last word? 

<tapping my foot awaiting your last word, again>


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 15, 2018)

Nope-- nuttin' more to say on the subject.

D'oh!


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## Ithilethiel (Aug 15, 2018)

It's a lost cause...go ahead


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## Elthir (Aug 15, 2018)

Off topic? Count me in with a reeeaaal sleep inducer!

Maeglin is usually noted as betraying the location of Gondolin in that he seemingly gave the needed details to allow an assault to take place. If I recall correctly, in earlier versions of the Túrin saga, Húrin's release did not reveal the location of Gondolin in any measure, thus the following from The Wanderings of Húrin is a newer conception:

"Yet there were ears that heard the words that Húrin spoke, and report of all came soon to the Dark Throne in the north; and Morgoth smiled, for he knew now clearly in what region Turgon dwelt, though because of the eagles no spy of his could yet come within sight of the land behind the Encircling Mountains. This was the first evil that the freedom of Húrin achieved." JRRT, The Wanderings of Húrin, The War of the Jewels -- used in _Of the Ruin of Doriath,_ The Silmarillion.

CJRT then reveals: "At this point in the draft manuscript my father wrote: "Later when captured and Maeglin wished to buy his release with treachery, Morgoth must answer laughing, saying: Stale news will buy nothing. I know this already, I am not so easily blinded! So Maeglin was obliged to offer more -- to undermine resistance in Gondolin.' [a further note of almost exact wording adds] 'and to compass the death of Tuor and Earendil if he could. If he did he would be allowed to retain Idril (said Morgoth)." Note 30 The Wanderings of Húrin

I have no problem with Christopher Tolkien's decision to combine descriptions here for the 1977 Silmarillion. Combining the 1930 _Qenta Noldorinwa_ (QN) and the _Wanderings of Húrin_ (WH) leaves the impression that Húrin betrayed a general location, and Maeglin's betrayal was needed for the assault -- that is, Maeglin provided the "very" location (the word very was added by CJRT for _The Silmarillion_), and 'the ways whereby it might be found and assailed' (from QN). Christopher Tolkien (commentary The Fall of Gondolin, The Book of Lost Tales) even notes that: "Thus in the Silmarillion Morgoth remained in ignorance until Maeglin's capture of the precise location of Gondolin, and Maeglin's information was of correspondingly greater value to him, as it was also of greater damage to the city."

But if the notes revealed in WH were meant to imply a revised conception (I don't think CJRT would necessarily disagree with that, unless I've missed something crucial here, though granted I have no _certain_ way of knowing in any case), then what of the impression if we exclude Qenta Noldorinwa?

CJRT noted in the Foreword of WJ that so much of the last chapters of Quenta Silmarillion remained in the form of the Qenta Noldorinwa of 1930 (aside from meagre hints) -- in other words, they weren't updated in the 1950s for example, like earlier chapters had been, and: "For this there can be no simple explanation, but it seems to me that an important element was the centrality that my father accorded to the story of Húrin and Morwen and their children, Túrin Turambar and Nienor Niniel. This became for him, I think, the dominant and absorbing story of the end of the Elder Days, in which complexity of motive and character, trapped in the mysterious workings of Morgoth's curse, sets it altogether apart. (...)"

He then notes the new dimension to the ruin that Húrin's release would bring: his catastrophic entry into the land of Haleth's people (WH). But could Húrin as the 'principle betrayer' of the location of Gondolin be part of this too?



In very early _The Book of Lost Tales_ the information about Gondolin from Meglin concerns the fashion of the plain and city, of the host, and the hoard of weapons, and he tells that Melko's host could not hope to overthrow the walls and gates of Gondolin even if they availed to win into the plain. Morgoth already knew where Gondolin was, but Meglin helped him devise a plan. The idea that Maeglin's treachery would involve other factors beyond location would not be a wholly new departure, then, but rather more like a return to an earlier notion (in general at least), where Melko already knew the location of Gondolin.

I also find Christopher Tolkien's choice of phrasing here interesting (the first is from commentary to WH, followed in the book by the text from QN -- the second from commentary to the Tale of Years): "Thus the story in Q was changed (IV. 143)' [] '510 The story that the site of Gondolin was revealed to Morgoth by Maeglin was later changed: see pp. 272-3 and note 30." To my mind, that's a rather simple way of putting things if the story was not notably changed. In other words, if Húrin's words were simply too general to be of real use, then how much has the story "changed" if Maeglin essentially still provides the needed location of Gondolin?

Anyway, pleasant dreams


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## Ithilethiel (Aug 15, 2018)

Galin said:


> Off topic? Count me in with a reeeaaal sleep inducer!
> 
> Maeglin is usually noted as betraying the location of Gondolin in that he seemingly gave the needed details to allow an assault to take place. If I recall correctly, in earlier versions of the Túrin saga, Húrin's release did not reveal the location of Gondolin in any measure, thus the following from The Wanderings of Húrin is a newer conception:
> 
> ...



No no Galin, not sleep inducing. Good stuff. I've only just begun reading HoME so much of this is new to me. Thx. 

I'll leave it to more learned members to respond to your post.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 15, 2018)

Thanks for putting all the back stories in order, Galin!

BTW -- I'm still awake, too!


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## octoburn (Aug 15, 2018)

Ithilethiel said:


> The elves did search for Turgon and so many of their "lost" kin. Not finding them they hoped Turgon and his followers would reappear when the need was greatest. Afterall, Turgon wasn't the first of the Noldor to go off to build a hidden kingdom (Doriath, Nargothrond).


Doriath wasn't founded by the Noldor 
Nargothrond was hidden, but elves came and went as they pleased there, unlike Gondolin.

Do you know a reference that says they looked for him? Not doubting you, I'd just like to read it for myself


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## Ithilethiel (Aug 15, 2018)

octoburn said:


> Doriath wasn't founded by the Noldor
> Nargothrond was hidden, but elves came and went as they pleased there, unlike Gondolin.
> 
> Do you know a reference that says they looked for him? Not doubting you, I'd just like to read it for myself



Yes sorry I meant they were places of safety for many elves and so a refuge many elves, "disappeared to" over the years.

I've been looking for a quote for you but so far have been unsuccessful finding one. But I'm still looking bc I like to see things in b&w too. When/if I find it and if no one beats me to it (all welcome) I'll post it here.


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## octoburn (Aug 15, 2018)

Ithilethiel said:


> Yes sorry I meant they were places of safety for many elves and so a refuge many elves, "disappeared to" over the years.
> 
> I've been looking for a quote for you but so far have been unsuccessful finding one. But I'm still looking bc I like to see things in b&w too. When/if I find it and if no one beats me to it (all welcome) I'll post it here.


If you find it, I would love to see it! It could be in one of the books I don't have. I only have HOME 1-9.


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## Ithilethiel (Aug 15, 2018)

octoburn said:


> If you find it, I would love to see it! It could be in one of the books I don't have. I only have HOME 1-9.



Then I shall search in 10--12. We'll figure this out yet!


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## Elthir (Aug 16, 2018)

A note from Nevrast: "Went out for pizza. Back in an Elven-jiff. Sooner if Morgoth tries to take over the Universe."

Sounds better in Elvish.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Aug 16, 2018)

Galin said:


> A note from Nevrast: "Went out for pizza. Back in an Elven-jiff. Sooner if Morgoth tries to take over the Universe."
> 
> Sounds better in Elvish.



Is there an Elvish word for Pizza? I had no idea


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## Elthir (Aug 16, 2018)

It's a loose translation


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## Starbrow (Aug 17, 2018)

> Is there an Elvish word for Pizza? I had no idea /



Lembaza


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