# Your theories on how the trolls got Glamdring and Orkrist?



## Copia (Aug 17, 2022)

I am sure this one has been on everyones mind, and it has been on mine for many years.

It is actually insane how three very stupid trolls had Orkrist, and maybe the most famouse swords of all, Glamdring in their possesion.
As everyone knows Glamdring used to belong to Turgon King of Gondolin, High King of the Noldors.

I mean all the events and everything that needed to happen for these three imbeciles to get a hold hos these swords... Its mindblowing to me. And I dont have a theory at all.
Its so weird how it was not in Elronds possesion.
Would be fun to see if someone actually had som theories on this.


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## Ent (Aug 17, 2022)

Well, since you asked...
You see... Tolkien had a thought. He decided that the group needed just a little something somehow, that would be of concern to the Orcs, as the Orcs were a concern to them. Of themselves, they just really aren't a very scary bunch.

SO... Tolkien, trying to figure out how in the world to get some 'weapons of power' into the groups hands, concocted some trolls, a cave, and a Troll Hoard.
Then... he set pen to paper and... pow. Some advantages were conveyed to the group.

And let's face it... between Glamdring, Orkrist and Sting, Sting was by far the bigger character in the plot lines, and far the most powerful of the three.

I'm sorry, I do know your question is a serious one. But I too have never been able to give it a plausible answer. Alternatively, almost any answer given would be plausible, since there are neither foundation, nor details, from which to draw conclusions.

But you set me a nice little research project... would there be any reason Elrond would, or could, have had them? I would not have suspected so... but I've no foundation for that at present. There is just nothing known about where they were in their last battles, who carried them, how they came to be 'lost', how they might have been 'found', etc., that eventually some troll or other could have found them, or eaten their carrier(s), etc. 

And of course we have no background history of the trolls doomed to becoming stoneware, either.

As Sherlock Holmes would say: "it is a capital mistake to theorize before you have all the evidence. It biases the judgment." 

An interesting puzzle. I hand it to our Squint-eyed Southerner, Chief Cellrog from the Great Halls of Speculation - and contentedly do so I must admit.


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## arivista (Aug 17, 2022)

Yeah, honestly, Glamdring in the troll cave does not make much sense.

But as far as its history might go, most likely path seems to me this:

Since it was Turgon‘s weapon, he probably fought with it during the Fall of Gondolin. After he died, it was probably taken by Morgoth’s armies. I find it unlikely Tuor or someone else would be able to take it before the enemies could, they were too busy fleeing for their lives. And it makes sense for Morgoth’s servants to take everything they found upon Turgon, whom Morgoth feared the most of all Eldar. It is a proof of his death, for once, and a symbol of his (at least seeming) total destruction.

So I take it Glamdring was held in Thangorodrim, and was later retrieved by the armies of Valar after the War of Wrath.

But as for what might have happened with it afterwards, I am at a loss. Since it belonged tu Turgon, the line of heritage should go through Idril and Eärendil to Elrond and Elros. Elros had Aranrúth from Thingol, so I guess he would not get a second equally famous sword. And since Glamdring obviously wasn’t lost int the Drowning of Númenor, it is very reasonable to assume Glamdring was never brought there. Yes, the kings of Númenor held Aranrúth, but if Númenoreans had Glamdring as well, I think it would pass at least to the Lords of Andúnië. But it didn’t, because they had Narsil, which was (from perspective of First Age) less important/famous sword than Glamdring. If Glamdring was ever on Númenor, and was saved by Elendil, I think he would have that, and not Narsil.

So theoretically it should have gone to Elrond, but it creates problems of its own. If that is the case, you might ask how he ever lost it (wouldn't he be extra careful with such an important heirloom?), and secondly, why wouldn’t he claim it from Gandalf after it was found again. Or at least mention it, if we assume he just generously let him have it. I can offer no other (at least semi-reasonable) speculation here.


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## Radaghast (Aug 17, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> And let's face it... between Glamdring, Orkrist and Sting, Sting was by far the bigger character in the plot lines, and far the most powerful of the three.


How do you figure?


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 17, 2022)

Copia said:


> I am sure this one has been on everyones mind, and it has been on mine for many years.
> 
> It is actually insane how three very stupid trolls had Orkrist, and maybe the most famouse swords of all, Glamdring in their possesion.
> As everyone knows Glamdring used to belong to Turgon King of Gondolin, High King of the Noldors.
> ...


Hmm... Very good question. 

To me, I would think that perhaps it was passed down for many years, and then someone who owned it was taken down by the Trolls, or it was stolen from the Kingdom, and then the one who stole it or whoever inherited it after, was taken down by Trolls, and the Trollshaws kept these items until they were taken.


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## Ent (Aug 17, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> How do you figure?



I will reply to this after work...need a little time to write it out. 
It's clearly by far the bigger character in the plot lines, as it appears and is mentioned over 3 times more frequently than the others. 
The 'bigger power' is a matter of definition of 'power' which I'll go into later.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 17, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> I will reply to this after work...need a little time to write it out.
> It's clearly by far the bigger character in the plot lines, as it appears and is mentioned over 3 times more frequently than the others.
> The 'bigger power' is a matter of definition of 'power' which I'll go into later.


I would be curious to this also-- I have always thought that it may be Glamdring. In The Lord of the Rings, Sting is indeed by far the most used and also the most of shown Power, but throughout Tolkien's books of Middle-Earth, I am not certain.


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## Ent (Aug 17, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> I would be curious to this also-- I have always thought that it may be Glamdring. In The Lord of the Rings, Sting is indeed by far the most used and also the most of shown Power, but throughout Tolkien's books of Middle-Earth, I am not certain.



Good. The response will come. 
In LoTR Sting is mentioned 43 times, Glamdring olny 9. Orcrist, is of course, mentioned only once and is buried with Thorin. 
In TH, Sting is mentioned 12 times, Glamdring only 3. 

So Sting is mentioned almost 5 times more frequently than Glamdring. Clearly the 'center stage player'. 

Again, we'll discuss the 'power' issue later... they being both of Elven make and imbued with Elven powers, mostly shown by their ability to "shine in the presence of Orcs" (which is mentioned of Glamdring also in Moria), one wonders what _other_ power either of them actually has??
It would seem their "inherent" power is equal. Anything else regarding their individual power is speculation.

Thus, we must turn to the other things that are included in the concepts of 'power' with regard to the two.

More later...


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 17, 2022)

I have no argument that it is the most-mentioned. However I am more curious upon the 'power' element, and I will await your response gladly.


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## Radaghast (Aug 17, 2022)

All three are Elven swords of exceptional make that glow blue when orcs are nearby. I don't think they have any other powers.

As far as use, Glamdring is instrumental in defeating the Balrog, first in shattering its flame sword, then being used to hew at it as Gandalf chases it through the underground tunnels to the top of Celebdil. After Gandalf is brought back from death there is no mention of it being used again, but that does not diminish its previous use.

As for Orcrist, it doesn't ever really get a chance for much glory, that we know of, except that it was obviously used in the goblin mines and the Battle of the Five Armies.


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## Elthir (Aug 17, 2022)

“I could not say,” said Elrondthir, “but one may guess that your these trolls had plundered other plunderers, or come on the remnants of old robberies in some hold in the mountains."


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## Olorgando (Aug 17, 2022)

I just re-read the part in TH, chapter 3 "A Sort Rest", where Elrond translates the runes on Orcrist and Glamdring:

"... This, Gandalf, was Glamdring, Foe-hammer that the king of Gondolin once wore. Keep them well!"

Erm ... yes ... that king of Gondolin, Turgon, was Elrond's great-grandfather (father's mother's father) ...
My guess is that while JRRT inserted some crumbs from his unpublished legendarium, he didn't want to go into much detail. There are several swords mentioned in his "Silmarillion" writings, but I'm not sure that Glamdring is before he introduced it into TH.


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## Radaghast (Aug 17, 2022)

Yeah, that is basically my guess too. Tolkien used the name Gondolin before he had any hopes that his other stories would be published or that _The Hobbit_ would become part of that universe; almost as a larf. I have never seen the first edition of _The Hobbit_ but maybe that word isn't even in that edition?

Besides the curiosity of the swords being in the troll cave, there is also the matter of the orcs of Moria being able to recognize them over 6,000 years after the Fall of Gondolin 😆 (to say nothing of the fact that Gondolin is at least a hundred miles away and under water).

There is really no good way to explain that, I think, so perhaps the best thing to do is to not try 😁


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## Ent (Aug 17, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> All three are Elven swords of exceptional make that glow blue when orcs are nearby. I don't think they have any other powers.
> 
> As far as use, Glamdring is instrumental in defeating the Balrog, first in shattering its flame sword, then being used to hew at it as Gandalf chases it through the underground tunnels to the top of Celebdil. After Gandalf is brought back from death there is no mention of it being used again, but that does not diminish its previous use.
> 
> As for Orcrist, it doesn't ever really get a chance for much glory, that we know of, except that it was obviously used in the goblin mines and the Battle of the Five Armies.



And in terms of "power" in the sense of what can it intrinsically DO, this is why I maintain they all 3 bear the same "power" "intrinsically". That is, what power do they have "in and of and out from themselves alone." Which is the immediate question at hand.

(Though I cannot find anywhere where Orcrist is said to be able to glow, myself...so for now, such is 'speculation' for S-eS to guard in the Great Halls. It is a VIABLE speculation, but without it being stated, it is nonetheless speculation. Else all Elvish made swords must be speculated to glow. Something I"m not sure we have a basis for.)

Thus we look to what other things are called up with the use of the word "power". 
The swords did not "gain any added power" from the one who bore them. Their power is their power. The wieldeer may make a difference... but that has nothing to do with the swords power.

So we must consider what the sword brings to the bearer beyond its inherent sturdiness, inability to grow dull, and in the two cases at least, glow as a warning.

This is the 'power' I will address later.


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## Olorgando (Aug 17, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> (Though I cannot find anywhere where Orcrist is said to be able to glow, myself...so for now, such is 'speculation' for S-eS to guard in the Great Halls. It is a VIABLE speculation, but without it being stated, it is nonetheless speculation. Else all Elvish made swords must be speculated to glow. Something I"m not sure we have a basis for.)


I think I can answer that. Again from TH, chapter 18 "The Return Journey":

"Upon _{Thorin's}_ tomb the Elvenking the laid Orcrist, the elvish sword that had been taken from Thorin in captivity. It is said in songs that it gleamed ever in the dark if foes approached, and the fortress of the dwarves could not be taken by surprise."


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## Ent (Aug 17, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> And in terms of "power" in the sense of what can it intrinsically DO, this is why I maintain they all 3 bear the same "power" "intrinsically". That is, what power do they have "in and of and out from themselves alone." Which is the immediate question at hand.
> 
> (Though I cannot find anywhere where Orcrist is said to be able to glow, myself...so for now, such is 'speculation' for S-eS to guard in the Great Halls. It is a VIABLE speculation, but without it being stated, it is nonetheless speculation. Else all Elvish made swords must be speculated to glow. Something I"m not sure we have a basis for.)
> 
> ...



Oh, and in terms of 'intrinsic power' of the swords and the Speculative Halls, I'll just add this at this point so you know my perspectives on these two points:

Yes, it is written that Sting glowed blue, while Glamdring glowed white. But I do not think we can associate any difference in 'intrinsic power' with their colors of glow. The only purpose mentioned was that they glowed when Orcs were about.

As to Glamdring being used by Gandalf to poke holes in the Balrog, I don't think we can attribute any special power to that other than its sharpness and inability to dull. Attributes Sting also had. 

At the same time, Sting punched a hole in Shelob, something other swords could not do.

We know many Balrogs were slain before with Elvish weaponry... and we can't assume they were all even as well made as Orcrist and Glamdring.

So again: intrinsic power of 2 of the 3: Sting and Glamdring are equal. Orcrist, potentially so.

On we go to 'power of other kinds' (later).



Olorgando said:


> I think I can answer that. Again from TH, chapter 18 "The Return Journey":
> 
> "Upon _{Thorin's}_ tomb the Elvenking the laid Orcrist, the elvish sword that had been taken from Thorin in captivity. It is said in songs that it gleamed ever in the dark if foes approached, and the fortress of the dwarves could not be taken by surprise."



Nice catch.
This could actually mean Orcrist DID have the greatest power intrinsically... if we extend "foes" to include things beyond "Orcs." Sting only glowed in the presence of Orcs, and Glamdring is never said to glow in other than Orc presence either. (Yes I know, it could be _speculated_ that the reason for its glowing in Moria alongside Sting isn't because of the Orcs.. but is because of the cave troll or even the balrog deep someplace within... but given that it and Sting are mentioned as glowing at the same time, the implication is that it is for the same reason and not for an unrevealed one.)


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## Radaghast (Aug 17, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> As to Glamdring being used by Gandalf to poke holes in the Balrog, I don't think we can attribute any special power to that other than its sharpness and inability to dull. Attributes Sting also had.


I never did. I just said they're well-made, i.e. very durable. Glamdring shattered the Balrog's sword into "molten fragments" suggesting the demon's weapon was no mere toy. Also, Glamdring was none the worse for wear.



Well-aged Enting said:


> At the same time, Sting punched a hole in Shelob, something other swords could not do.



The power for that impalement was supplied by Shelob herself. Otherwise, Sam would have no hope of piercing her hide:


> But Shelob was not as dragons are, no softer spot had she save only her eyes. Knobbed and pitted with corruption was her age-old hide, but ever thickened from within with layer on layer of evil growth. The blade scored it with a dreadful gash, but those hideous folds could not be pierced by any strength of men, not though Elf or Dwarf should forge the steel or the hand of Beren or of Túrin wield it. She yielded to the stroke, and then heaved up the great bag of her belly high above Sam’s head. Poison frothed and bubbled from the wound. Now splaying her legs she drove her huge bulk down on him again. Too soon. For Sam still stood upon his feet, and dropping his own sword, with both hands he held the elven-blade point upwards, fending off that ghastly roof; and so Shelob, with the driving force of her own cruel will, with strength greater than any warrior’s hand, thrust herself upon a bitter spike. Deep, deep it pricked, as Sam was crushed slowly to the ground.



 "The Choices of Master Samwise"


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## Elthir (Aug 17, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> "Upon _{Thorin's}_ tomb the Elvenking the laid Orcrist, the elvish sword that had been taken from Thorin in captivity. It is said in songs that it gleamed ever in the dark if foes approached, and the fortress of the dwarves could not be taken by surprise."



Yes *Gando*! Which I think fits well with the description of Beater and Biter in _Over Hill And Under Hill_, 
in which the goblins turn a corner and find both swords shining "*cold and bright"* right in their astonished eyes.

The goblins had torches, but I don't take this as a matter of reflection, and in any case . . . *what you said*!

🐾


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## Ent (Aug 17, 2022)

Great, new details being added. Well done and thanks.
The point remains that they all had the same 'intrinsic power' - now that we know for sure Orcrist AT LEAST glowed too, in the presence of Orcs (and other foes?!)

So they're all intrinsically equal in power, or Orcrist may top the list. 

What other kinds of power are there that these swords bring, that aren't necessarily "intrinsic unto themselves" ?? 

That still be comes the remaining question - all sprung from my comment that Sting had the most power of them all. (Which may or may not prove true in the end... but without considering the other question at hand, it still holds for me... unless I decide Orcrist indeed takes the cake and I'll retract it now. 😀)

Of course... another alternative is to say the swords simply have no power at all.
Unless they are being wielded by someone, whatever they have simply lays there and does nothing. 
(Even if it glows. If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is around to hear it, does it still make a sound?)

In which case again, the swords still all bear the same level of "intrinsic" power - none.

Yet they still have a power that has not been considered... which has become intrinsic to them all. 
It is here (among other areas) that we need to consider and measure their power.

Thwack... into your courts.


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## arivista (Aug 17, 2022)

It almost seems to me Glamdring was used by other warriors after Turgon and before Gandalf, because Turgon himself really didn't fight that much with orcs. So how did it get such a recognition as Beater?

Tolkiengateway writes this, but I find it somewhat difficult to believe:


> The name most likely originated in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, where it is said that Turgon "hewed his way to the side of his brother".


Does one battle (losing battle, on top of that) really give name to a sword that is well-remembered for millenia? Kind of doubtful...

But on the other hand, Orcrist is specifically said to get its goblin name when Gondolin still stood:


> They knew the sword at once. It had killed hundreds of goblins in its time, when the fair elves of Gondolin hunted them in the hills or did battle before their walls. They had called it Orcrist, Goblin-cleaver, but the goblins called it simply Biter. They hated it and hated worse any one that carried it.


So even Beater might have gotten famous just by Turgon's war exploits. But it is not entirely satisfactory to me.


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## Radaghast (Aug 17, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> Of course... another alternative is to say the swords simply have no power at all.
> Unless they are being wielded by someone, whatever they have simply lays there and does nothing.
> (Even if it glows. If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is around to hear it, does it still make a sound?)
> 
> ...


I think you may be overthinking things just a tad. Also, mere mention and frequency of Sting's "feats" don't preclude similar feats by other elf-made blades.


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## Olorgando (Aug 17, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> This could actually mean Orcrist DID have the greatest power intrinsically... if we extend "foes" to include things beyond "Orcs."


I noticed that use of "foes" instead of "Orcs", too.
One speculation takes me in the direction: after the Battle of Five Armies, who were *no longer* foes of the Dwarves of Erebor? Thranduil's Elves; I'd guess the Men of Laketown never had been (except in the short siege of Thorin's Dwarves before the BoFA). Dale had gotten on well with Erebor before Smaug appeared. Kind of leaves the Orcs. But JRRT never goes into detail of who exactly attacked Dale and Erebor (or Thranduil) during the final clashes ending the War of the Ring. Easterlings *could* conceivably have marched up from the south-east.

But as to taking all too many of the details in TH as Middle-earth canon, even though it is author-published, I have strong reservations against it (a point where Elthir and I part ways to a degree).


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 17, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> Tolkien used the name Gondolin before he had any hopes that his other stories would be published or that _The Hobbit_ would become part of that universe; almost as a larf. I have never seen the first edition of _The Hobbit_ but maybe that word isn't even in that edition?


Douglas A. Anderson is meticulous in documenting changes, e.g. noting the change in Ro_ast Mutton _from 1937's "if we can read them" (the runes) to "_when _we can read them" (1966), and as he doesn't mention Gondolin being added later, we can assume it was present from the first.

An odder thing is, of course, Gandalf being unable to read the runes, something that apparently exercised Tolkien, as he attempted to explain it at least a couple of times: once, that they were specialized "Gondolinian" runes, and in his abandoned try at a revision, in the 60s, that G couldn't read the runes at the time because "the blades were covered with blood". 😳

BTW, in relation to "powers", I'll venture a speculation that they were very likely inscribed with spells, in addition to their names.



Olorgando said:


> Easterlings *could* conceivably have marched up from the south-east.


They did; see the paragraphs following March 25, 4019 in Appendix B. In fact, it appears from the description that the attacking force consisted _only _of Easterlings.

I'd also say they likely came directly from the east.

At any rate, I suppose there was advance warning from Orcrist.


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## Ent (Aug 17, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> I think you may be overthinking things just a tad. Also, mere mention and frequency of Sting's "feats" don't preclude similar feats by other elf-made blades.



My dear Radaghast, the entire string has derailed from its original intent.
All the flurry is over a quibble about a simple comment I made in my response... that "sting was by far the most powerful."
I was asked why I think so. I am supplying my answer.
And I'm merely responding by sharing that other people are overlooking the issues of 'power'.

Lastly, "other elvish blades" are not in view here, but only the 3 mentioned in the original statement resulting in the quibble. Orcrist, Glamdring and Sting.

In truth, the swords themselves have absolutely no power... other than to glow. And as is pointed out with Orcrist at least, it's ability to glow was used by some on an ongoing basis - and from the language, for some extended period of time, such as "never"... as long as that place needed to know about the approach of enemies. But that's neither here nor there.

And no "feats" were ever done by any of the blades, if we want to really get techincal with the language. They were done by the wielders.

I'm more than happy to settle for the details provided, admit that they are all entirely equal in intrinsic power, and it is their USE that has determined their individual merits beyond that.

I'm thankful the Orcs remembered their names back in history.
I wonder how many people remember their names today.

I daresay if we asked a hundred thousand people the names of Thorin and Gandalf's swords, the correct responses would be somewhat thin, compared to the same question asked of Frodo's sword.

And there are other issues of 'power' that have not yet been considered. All these were in my mind as I wrote... but I don't think have been brought to bear by anyone yet at all... other than tangentially, by one poster who shall remain nameless.

I think I've learned once again NOT to post.
It inevitably leads to a zeroing in on some quibble-point that derails the issue of the original thread.

Not why I'm here...though again the responses that were related to actually bring additional text to bear were of use.

So my recommendation is to return this to the original poster's thrust and let it go.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 17, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> I think I've learned once again NOT to post.


There is no good reason not to post!

Unless you're posting fluff.* Which you don't.


* Or 🥚


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## Ent (Aug 17, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> There is no good reason not to post!
> 
> Unless you're posting fluff.* Which you don't.
> 
> ...


Eggs seem to have plenty of presence already, and most surely don't need any assistance from me. 😆 
I do try to avoid fluff. I've left all groups and pages I was in, due to the predominance of fluff, save this one.

So let's just say I will be MUCH more cautious with regard to what I say and regarding what it is said about. I will try to remember that anything resulting in a 'disjointed, separated presentation of thoughts and related information' such as this inevitably leads to discontinuity and confusion. And, not all think about things in the same ways. (Bert and Ernie come to mind...)


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 17, 2022)

If you haven't already noticed, we're fairly tolerant of off-topic posts here. 😄

(Not that yours were)


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## Ent (Aug 17, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> If you haven't already noticed, we're fairly tolerant of off-topic posts here. 😄



I have indeed noticed that, and to me that's fine.
I just often feel badly for the poor thread originator, who had a specific question, need or intent in mind with the thread, but found himself/herself needing to pick their way through the Dead Marshes. 

And yet...I could suppose that most thread posters too, find value in the many tributaries - even quibbles - that may erupt from time to time. And most are younger than I, and so have a more agile brain to jump from vehicle to vehicle, and discern which vehicles to ignore, in the chase toward the ultimate destination. (somehow a picture of Indiana Jones leaping about just flashed through my mind.)


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## Elthir (Aug 17, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> * Or 🥚



Ouch.



Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> An odder thing is, of course, Gandalf being unable to read the runes, something that apparently exercised Tolkien, as he attempted to explain it at least a couple of times: once, that they were specialized "Gondolinian" runes, and in his abandoned try at a revision, in the 60s, that G couldn't read the runes at the time because "the blades were covered with blood".



Wasn't the Runes of Gondolin explanation a fan theory (albeit based on something Tolkienian)?

The dried blood is Tolkien in any case, but he didn't get it into the Third Edition!


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 17, 2022)

No, as I understand it, the bloody blades appeared in that major rewrite, given up on by Tolkien as a lost cause. 

I dunno about the other theory.



Elthir said:


> Ouch


Hey, I'm just as guilty. 😅


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 17, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> I have indeed noticed that, and to me that's fine.
> I just often feel badly for the poor thread originator, who had a specific question, need or intent in mind with the thread, but found himself/herself needing to pick their way through the Dead Marshes.
> 
> And yet...I could suppose that most thread posters too, find value in the many tributaries - even quibbles - that may erupt from time to time. And most are younger than I, and so have a more agile brain to jump from vehicle to vehicle, and discern which vehicles to ignore, in the chase toward the ultimate destination. (somehow a picture of Indiana Jones leaping about just flashed through my mind.)


I appreciate your careful thought into posts very much-- but I have treasured every one of them! Particularly the poetry.


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## Elthir (Aug 17, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> No, as I understand it, the bloody blades appeared in that major rewrite, given up on by Tolkien as a lost cause.



Right *S-eS*! And for myself, I think (*speculation alert*) Tolkien might have wanted to retain the dried blood idea . . .

. . . this is partly based on the handling of a timeline problem: John Rateliff notes that the 1960 Hobbit revisions would have redressed a certain timeline dilemma -- but *"the fact that the 1966 third edition failed to do so, is, I think, a persuasive bit of evidence that Carpenter is correct in stating that Tolkien did not have the 1960 [Hobbit] material before him when he made those final changes to the text."*

And J. Rateliff further notes that Tolkien was almost certainly working from memory, and only ended up exacerbating the problem of the discrepancy in the Third Edition. Okay that's _that_ problem . . .

. . . but I wonder if Tolkien had this material at hand at other times with respect to revising the Third Edition, and that if he didn't, he might have simply forgot to add the dried blood.

Seems a quick enough revision, to my mind, anyway.

Another interesting one is Gandalf's eyebrows sticking out beyond the brim of his hat -- revised in the 1960 Hobbit to *"bushy eyebrows that bristled beneath the brim of his hat"* -- but with this one, Tolkien seems to have forgotten that he had also published this detail in _The Lord of The Rings_!

Anyway, I ramble here.



Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I dunno about the other theory.



The Gondolinic runes appear to date from the first half of the 1920s. They exist in the external chronology of course, but I don't recall (it being mentioned) that Tolkien himself necessarily thought that these runes explained Gandalf's unreading.

In _The Hobbit_, from an external perspective, Gandalf was arguably not yet "fully Gandalf", so to speak.

_Not that you didn't know any of this my good egg_ . . . but it gave me something to do while the pizza heats up.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 17, 2022)

Where is this mentioned, about the blades being covered in blood?


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## Elthir (Aug 17, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Where is this mentioned, about the blades being covered in blood?



Dried blood in the 1960 Hobbit . . . Tolkien didn't finish this revision.

See _The History of The Hobbi_t by J. Rateliff


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 17, 2022)

Elthir said:


> Dried blood in the 1960 Hobbit . . . Tolkien didn't finish this revision.
> 
> See _The History of The Hobbi_t by J. Rateliff


I see. Thank you for this. I will. Is there a citation I can find?


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## Ent (Aug 17, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> I appreciate your careful thought into posts very much-- but I have treasured every one of them! Particularly the poetry.



Thank you for the comments.

The poetry will of course continue. Especially the poetry 'tossed off' on the spur of the moment, and not necessarily too directly Tolkien related - though usually 'Forum' related in some way. 

With regard to this particular thread, the tributary launched from my response, and the whole concept of the number of angles to consider with regard to "power" and how that plays into the situation at large, and my response in particular, that will not be added now, however. It will only serve to further distract from the thread's initial purpose.

I'm very thankful for all the text and comments shared that helped illuminate things with regard to the swords...especially the added clarity on Orcrist. 
The rest may be covered in another thread sometime somewhere, when 'power' is again under discussion and we can move beyond the common and immediate thinking with regard to it, to the other aspects of and means through which power is developed, extended, received, applied, executed, and perceived, at a minimum.

I did say I would develop and share it 'later, after work'... and I still may do so 'later'.... but now is not the time.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 17, 2022)

I await your remarks gladly, Enting. You always give good words.


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## Eljorahir (Aug 17, 2022)

Your theories on how the trolls got Glamdring and Orkrist?​
I have no theory for Orkrist.

For Glamdring, however:
After the rubble of Gondolin cooled, three trolls arrived to scrounge for plunder. Their names were William Huggins, Tom, and Bert. They collected many nice trinkets. Then, in the distance they saw the tiniest orc they'd ever seen dragging a sword along the ground that was too big for it to lift. They snuck up behind it very quietly and just stood there. As it backed up dragging the sword it bumped into William's foot, was startled, turned around, looked up, and exclaimed: "'Ere, 'oo are you?" William grabbed the cute little orc and put it in his pocket for safe keeping.

Over the next centuries the three trolls travelled into the east and made good use of the sword for various troll tasks. You know, things like rotisserie skewer, toothpick, troll toenail trimmer, etc. (...trollie stuff.)

Then, this burrahobbit showed up out of nowhere and tried to steal the tiny orc from William's pocket...

I guess everyone knows the story from here.

Of course, it's just a theory.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 17, 2022)

Hmm... It is a very interesting theory. Thanks for sharing.


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## Copia (Aug 18, 2022)

To me there is no doubt that Glamdring and Orkrist were more "famouse" and powerfull than Sting. Sting was a dagger after all.

It may be that Glamdring and Orkrist were taken during the Fall of Gondolin? So it has only been passed down by random orcs and trolls maybe and somehow ended up with the trolls. Then again its kinda weird that orcs would have anything to do with them. Since even orcs/goblins of the Mist Mountains feared them so much.


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## Elthir (Aug 18, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> I see. Thank you for this. I will. Is there a citation I can find?



Yep 

*"These look like good blades too," said the wizard, half drawing the swords and examining them closely. "They were not made by any troll, nor by any smith among Men of these days. But there's black blood on them, goblin-blood. When they are cleaned and the runes on them can be read, we shall know more about them." *JRRT, The Broken Bridge, The History of the Hobbit

🐾


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 18, 2022)

Elthir said:


> Yep
> 
> *"These look like good blades too," said the wizard, half drawing the swords and examining them closely. "They were not made by any troll, nor by any smith among Men of these days. But there's black blood on them, goblin-blood. When they are cleaned and the runes on them can be read, we shall know more about them." *JRRT, The Broken Bridge, The History of the Hobbit
> 
> 🐾


Thank you! Perfect! You really are good at the citation thing!


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## Elthir (Aug 18, 2022)

Thanks! Now I wish I hadn't made that citation up!

just kidding, it's real 

I woke up


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 18, 2022)

Elthir said:


> Thanks! Now I wish I hadn't made that citation up!
> 
> just kidding, it's real
> 
> I woke up


I figured it was real. Always good humor with you-- indeed.


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## ZehnWaters (Aug 24, 2022)

Copia said:


> I am sure this one has been on everyones mind, and it has been on mine for many years.
> 
> It is actually insane how three very stupid trolls had Orkrist, and maybe the most famouse swords of all, Glamdring in their possesion.
> As everyone knows Glamdring used to belong to Turgon King of Gondolin, High King of the Noldors.
> ...


It'd imagine they (or their ancestors) simply made off with treasures from Morgoth's hoard when he fell and they likely didn't know the worth of what they had.


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