# Forum Layout Discussion



## Lhunithiliel

*Great!....Just GREAT!*

Yeah!  

Out of 60 threads which could be called "active" for the past 10 hours ONLY *5* are truly dedicated to Tolkien's writings!

Great!.... Just GREAT!!!

Don't you think it's *HIGH TIME* to change this unpleasant and unnecessary tendency of turning TTF into an all-topics chat-room?! 
Shall we bring back the old times of hot *Tolkien - related* discussions and activities?

Opinions?.....

Or.....maybe you are all too busy and involved in the little and insignificant chattings?


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## Confusticated

I have grown increasingly unhappy with this throughout the last few months.

It is a sensative topic though, because pointing this stuff out is sometimes taken as an insult by people.

This is why I am unhappy about there being a religion forum, and why I have the extreme opinion that politics and religion just as well go into Stuff and Bother. But suffice it to say, your observation is one that some of us are aware of and not too thrilled about. 

Religion and politics are very hot topics, and while I am not saying those topics should be banned from TTF, I do view them being given their own forums as a threat to the book discussion. I am aware that religion discussions would happen and did happen before it had its own area... however giving it its own area, and I have said this elsewhere but I'll say it again for those who missed it: Putting it on the front page with its own section will give it more priority and encouragement.

The fact is Lhun, people like you and I are in the minority, and it seems TTF is working to please the majority. Is that a bad thing?


This was my first Tolkien forum and is my primary Tolkien forum and for that reason I stick around and try to help out what little I can with keeping the book talk happening. Every little bit helps, and all that anyone posts about the books adds up... so I think the best we can do is be encouraging to other posters when they do post in the book forum... be welcoming and helpful when we can.

Another EDIT:



> Don't you think it's HIGH TIME to change this unpleasant and unnecessary tendency of turning TTF into an all-topics chat-room?!


That is a very unpopular idea, I am sure. 

I just want to add that there are a lot of other Tolkien websites out there, so when some of us are unhappy about the level of Tolkien at this place, we have those other sites to visit too. I really do not think this trend of slipping away from Tolkien is ever going to end. This place has many members and we all use the place to discuss different things. We can't just up and get rid of a bunch of the non-Tolkien stuff. I really do not think someone who has over 50 percent of their posts about Tolkien should be any more important than those who have less then 10 percent. The fact is that not all Tolkien fans really want to discuss the books much. That is an observation... can hardly be denied. So as I said before... its up to us to be encouraging to our fellow Tolkien posters... in specific those who do not post about the books very often or who are new to TTF and especially to new readers. One reason I really like Grond so much and think so highly of him is the way he was so friendly and encouraging to me as a new reader. He did this for others too. I will never forget that. 

Some may find a lot of the threads intimidating or be reluctant to ask a 'silly' question, or feel they have nothing worthy to contribute, and this we must keep in mind when people post. I think most of us frequent posters... you guys, we love the heck out of these books and are glad to hear from any/everyone in the book threads.


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## Talierin

The mods are discussing the future of the guilds of religion and politics currently.

As for the rest of the OT sections, Aerin and I are working to clean them up...


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## Aulë

For once, Lhun, I agree with you.  (I know, I'm shocked too- maybe the planets are aligned  )

The*Tolkien*Forum seems to be slowly drifting away from Tolkien and his works. I know that the Mods want to turn this into a community of sorts, where the members can talk about a range of things, but it is starting to get plain ridiculous. Maybe this can be explained by some of the members who joined the forum because of PJ's movies. They would prefer to talk about every day events rather than Tolkien's works. The GoR, TTL and GoP are just encouraging the non-Tolkien discussion, and I have been against them from the beginning.

I just hope the Mods can sort all this out before we start losing more of our wonderful Tolkien-scholars.


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## Confusticated

As for mods sorting this out, I do not see what they can do about it now. I think it is up to Webmaster which services to offer at TTF, and it was Webmaster and most of the current mods who were in leadership when this place was allowed to, and even encouraged to slip more away from Tolkien. Therefore it seems to me that those people see nothing wrong with it slipping away. But once it has slipped, how can it go back without lots of very unhappy people? You talk about us having lost Tolkien scholars (not sure who you have in mind?), but thrice as many people would leave if drastic measures were taken to reduce non-Tolkien discussion. And it is my opinion that most of the leadership would rather lose a few Tolkien posters than five times, or maybe even two times as many who don't ever bother about the books, but rather only hang out in politics, bars or some such.

I realised this a few months ago, and its put me of the opinion that any attempts to change this are in vain. This is the cause of my general negative attitude in Entmoot type threads lately, and bad behaviour over the past few months. Could just be that some have different visions of what they think TTF should be, but in the end TTF is what it is, not what anyone wishes it would be.

I do think an IRC would help though. And it just occurred to me that a specific Tolkien site that I know which is very high in Tolkien content, has an IRC... maybe that is a small part of how they do it?


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## Arvedui

Well, not all Mods are happy about the current state of affairs, as Tal tried to point at.
I agree with you wholeheartedly, Lhun.

To me, this Forum have always been about Tolkien and his works. All the other sections are just places I drop into from time to time. And unlike Nóm, I think it is worse to loose one member whose main interest is in Tolkien, than to loose 50 members who are mainly frequenting other places on TTF. But that is just me.

On the other hand, if we are concerned about the inactivity in the book-section, it is also up to us to see that there is activity there. I know Nóm have started several threads during the last few months. Unfortunately I am not bright enough to be able tohave an opinion on all of them, and one-liners as "I disagree with that view," is simply not my way of expressing myself.

I can't agree with Aulë's statement about scholars that have left. Who?
Actually, I have seen a couple of new members having expressed a lot of thought about the works of JRR Tolkien. So the situation is not so bad as one might think.


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## Confusticated

> And unlike Nóm, I think it is worse to loose one member whose main interest is in Tolkien, than to loose 50 members who are mainly frequenting other places on TTF. But that is just me.



It's not that I would rather see 1 Tolkien poster go than a lot non-Tolkien posters... it is my guess that most of the leadership would. For example, you would not, and I bet ithrynluin would not either for example.



> Well, not all Mods are happy about the current state of affairs, as Tal tried to point at.



What I am unhappy about (and so are others though for some reason they do not post about it! ) is that a higher percentage of the leadership is not more concerned about Tolkien discussion at TTF.

Awhile back wthin a fairly short amount of times four book mods had left. I was then made a mod. There was no way I could have replaced them (as well as the other mod who resigned - so that is 4! Four book guys had left!) as a book mod, I may have the dedication and love of Middle-earth but I didn't have the wisdom and good judgement, nor confidence. That is why I tried to push for more mods who are very much into the book discussions, and 

In conclusion: The sad thing is that I HAD to do that... I think I shouldn't have had to and that it should have been a given that more book mods were needed... but it was not! No one seemed to notice or care! It makes me bitter. Those words cut to the heart of my discontent.


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## Húrin Thalion

Do you want to know, what I think about this? I think it's a damn mess and that it is time to do something about it. There are a few measures I think need to be taken now or this forum will loose all credibility.

1: The merging of all non Tolkien realted forums into one.

2: The resetting, if possible, of the moderator corps as it was on the 1st of january this year, no offence meant to the ones that are mods now, but we desperately need people like Ancalagon back.

3: That WM starts checking up this forum for himself. Right now, it feels like he is handling this place entirely through the mods, I do not know if it is so or why, but something needs to be done about it since it is not going well. Constant attention and awareness of changes, I would also appreciate that all announcements of any importance were made by WM, since that would make members feel that he is a part of this forum.

4: The diminishing of the number of Tolkien related forums to a much smaller number. All the scholarly discussions in one room, all the lighter discussions in one. 

5: Some effective moderator control, this has got to do with #3 but anyway, the mods need to be controlled by someone, because right now, there is a lot of discontent with them and people don't know who they should turn to since the contact with WM is almost exclusively handled by a few mods. C9 is an excellent initiative but they are unfortunately toothless when it comes to serious disagreements, because their position is not very strong. Many members, me included, feel like their word carries more weight with WM than our word, even if it isn't so people shouldn't feel that way.

Måns


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## Lantarion

If you don't mind, I'd like to comment on those suggestions, Måns. 

1. This seems to me like a proposterous idea; absolutely no offense intended. But if I understood what you mean correctly, then controlling the enormous amount of threads in a confined space like that would be too much even for twice the Mod Squad we have now. Also the topics to be discussed in Tolkien's works are.. innumerable, and could never, in my opinion, be dumped into a single open forum.
But I may have misinterpreted what you said entirely, in which case you will please disregard the above statements. 

2. I agree that Ancalagon as well as Gothmog and other notable book mods would be a welcome and appreciated addition to the Moderating team; their work in their time was invaluable to the forum, and it was tragic that they left in the first place.

3. WM checks in on the forum very regularly, and discusses issues with the moderatos fairly often, several times a week. The duty of the Moderators is to keep TTF civil, clean and as on-topic as possible, as well as to interact with the other members (after all, Moderators are also members!) and to keep up a friendly atmosphere. WM in the Administrtator, and therefore is our 'boss' and presents us with the guidelines for running a forum properly. If you mean that WM should start Moderating himself, I don't see why not but he is a busy man.. 

4. This point is much like number 1, and I disagree with it. For example, the 'LotR' section must be divided into at least three parts (FotR, TTT, RotK; and possibly the Appendices) for coherent discussion to take place; it is, after all, an over 1000-page book. And if each different aspect of Tolkien's scholarly writings are not kept seperate, chaos will very likely ensue. You have a good basic point, the differentiating between 'serious' and 'lighthearted' topics, but it is a difficult task to clearly separate the two. Inasmuch as the forum is basically a civilized, serious discussion center, without lighteheartedness we would all grow stale and die.  

5. As I said above, WM monitors everything we do and gives us the guidelines necessary for performing our duties well. If we do something that is against his will, he will rectify it and confront us about it; which is to say that it is as if he were here all the time.

Now I have seen a lot of hostility towards the Moderators, both here on this thread and otherwise, but fail to see exactly whence it stems. Nóm, for example, seems throroughly discontented with our work (or apparently lack thereof?); what I would like to know is why she feels this way. I for one have been too passive over the last few months, but with my IB program starting I will be having a _lot_ of homework and studying to do; and yet I will venture by the forum and continue to do my duties as often as possible, almost every day for at least one hour. It seems that our flaws and wrongdoinsg are being piointed to, but never the good which we acomplish. The job isn't a piece of cake, it isn't something you can do in a jiffy and call it a night; it's practically a profession, combining what little authority we possess with 'public relations' and hard work. Personally I think we should be appreciated more, though not solely paised and thanked. If we do something wrong it is only right for people to complain about it.


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## Húrin Thalion

And then I woud like to clarify my view here. Maybe I was a bit drastic in my suggestion about merging, but maybe not.... I meant that we should make those forums fewer, as it is now, that would mean too much work for the moderator corps, but on sight I think that would have a natural effect: That the number of non Tolkien posts went down since the state right now invites to discussion about virtually everything except Tolkien. On LotR merging, no I think it would be fien considering how little is posted in the forums, look at the much more busy BD, there they have only two forums for basic discussion. I am not opposed to more than two, but right now, it feels like the number of forums and posts are not in proportion with eachother, too few posts on too many forums. 

On mods, this is not basicly criticism of the moderator corps, this is just a statement: TTF is not going fine, adn it hasn't since the big mod mess. I draw the conclusion that this is because we have lost many good moderator's. Therefore I came with this list of suggestions rather than demands, and I feel that something si wrong if someone's word carries more weight than another's, whether he's a mod or not. I just say that it would be good if WM showed that he was active in the forum by participating in discussions like these that concern him to a very high degree and that since members are discontent with the mods, they should have a way of complaining, btu they feel they don't, that the C9 is week and the WM is away. I am not stating any facts, it's just something many members feel.

Måns


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## Confusticated

> Nóm, for example, seems throroughly discontented with our work (or apparently lack thereof?); what I would like to know is why she feels this way.



I am not unhappy with the work the moderators do, as I am unaware of most of it anyhow. People continue to miss the point, maybe I am not being clear. However, if I put it in the simplest terms possible it would be a huge insult to some people I best not insult if I want to stick around.

I will try one more time: I was/still am unhappy about the fact that the leadership (this does not mean every mod, nor does it exclude Webmaster) seemed not to notice that with the departure of four book mods, new ones (more than just myself) were necessary. I had to rant for anyone to even hear what I was saying, and even then it didn't change the thing which bothered me - that no one noticed or cared that more book mods were needed.

That is all Lantarion, it is not that I do not like the work you guys do, it is that I do not agree with what I perceived to be the values of some of the leadership - value not Tolkien discussion, but something else.

As you say yourself:



> 2. I agree that Ancalagon as well as Gothmog and other notable book mods would be a welcome and appreciated addition to the Moderating team; their work in their time was invaluable to the forum, and it was tragic that they left in the first place.



Can you not see how I was furious that it seemed to be expected that adding only me would come close to making up for the loss of those four? Either people did not notice this, or they did not care. I do not know which, I suspect one over the other.

Anyhow... I'm going to try to not post in this thread again... I always get sucked into Entmoot anymore.


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## Ithrynluin

To me, it is quite clear what is to be done. 

The Guilds of Religion and Politics, at least, have to be removed from the main page of TTF. Stuff and Bother should be split into two sections, the lighthearted one, and the serious one, and these two fora would be the *ONLY* off topic sections here on thetolkienforum.com. This will most probably have to encompass The Time Lords as well, though the destiny of The Green Dragon and the Prancing Pony is debatable.

I don't think bunching all those off-topic threads together would present too much work for the moderators. There would be many topics in there, and would probably take up more than one page a day. But is it really so hard for us mods to simply flip over to the 2nd page, the 3rd page... to view everything that has transpired while each of us was away? I really don't think so.

As, for splitting the LOTR sections, I find it a bad idea. The LOTR section works fine as it is, although it has just a few lighthearted threads too many at the moment (for my liking).


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## Sarah

I'm sure nobody cares what I say, but I'm gonna say it anyway.

I like it the way it is, and I'm sure there are plenty of other ppl who agree with me.


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## Ithrynluin

I'm sure there are, Sarah. 

And I'm also sure of the fact that there's a multitude of religion and politics fora out there that would more than welcome anyone who wishes to discuss those topics, rather than ruining this here Tolkien forum with all these off topic fora, which create a lot of tension and discontent between members.

And we would not be banning these topics, just giving Tolkien the attention that he deserves, and putting everything else behind that. Tolkien is a priority here, everything else is of secondary meaning.


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## Lhunithiliel

Ah, people! 
What are you doing?
Discussing Mods' job and complaining about Mods' activity?....

THIS IS NOT THE POINT!!!

*It ALL depends on the people NOT the Mods!*

If people stop being lazy at discussing the writings and if people start caring more about discussions dedicated to the books than about other stuff, THEN and ONLY THEN it can give some positive results!
No Mod and not even the Web Master can do anything much if this does not change back.

I have never been a Mod (except for some rights that I have within the Guild of Tolkienology) but (correct me if I'm wrong!) the Mods are the people to take care of the smooth running of this site. They are NOT and canNOT be the ones to decide the *content* !
Can you imagine a Mod _ordering_ to a TTF-er to stop posting NOT about Tolkien and his books? Well, I can't!

If however people start posting more about the books - then it will be a natural process that other irrelevant topics will die away.

Of course, I understand that there is alot to be done by Mods and Administrators. 

But MUCH MORE is to be done by the members of this forum !

This is the way I see it.


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## Sarah

Here Here!


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## Beorn

> _Originally posted by Beorn _
> *I think the HoF isn't as strongly Tolkien (Tolkien - adjective: relating to the British author J. R. R. Tolkien or his works. Uses include 'strongly Tolkien' meaning more in-depth discussion and 'weaker Tolkien' indicating less in-depth discussion ) as it used to be, but it is still at an acceptable level. *



That's from the GM: Private forum (a while ago). I've been saying it for months. We need to steer TTF back towards more _Tolkien_ discussions. It started with the posts not counting in Green Dragon and S & B. Those were originally the two forums which created off topic discussions. Guilds came in sometime too. The GoP was very strong, and very calm originally. To delete it would have been an offense to ALL of the members to TTF. 

Now....I feel like a politician. I'm being told that I'm evil, that I don't care for anything, that I just sit around appease the people when they begin a mob.

I've been saying this for months, or years now: Not everyone can be pleased. But, now I see it a bit how a politician does. People only give feedback by complaining. They don't give suggestions. Look at the bottom of this post. There's a button that says 'E-mail' there. Use it. There's a link at the bottom of all threads that says 'Contact.' You can use that too (you'll probably get a quicker response from mine).

Now, I'll start to comment on what has been written so far.



> I know that the Mods want to turn this into a community of sorts, where the members can talk about a range of things, but it is starting to get plain ridiculous.


No. We don't. At least I don't. See what I wrote above.



> _Nom_
> And it is my opinion that most of the leadership would rather lose a few Tolkien posters than five times, or maybe even two times as many who don't ever bother about the books, but rather only hang out in politics, bars or some such.


I still feel like a politician. I'd rather loose no one. 



> _Nom_
> Awhile back wthin a fairly short amount of times four book mods had left. I was then made a mod. There was no way I could have replaced them (as well as the other mod who resigned - so that is 4! Four book guys had left!) as a book mod, I may have the dedication and love of Middle-earth but I didn't have the wisdom and good judgement, nor confidence. That is why I tried to push for more mods who are very much into the book discussions, and



Perhaps you should re-read your post.


> _Nom_
> Subj: So my thoughts are known
> Message: In my opinion Turgon and Gothmog are a couple of the most wise members of TTF. I do not know the details of everything that lead to their resignation, but it makes me uneasy. I know Gothmog, and I value his judgement beyond a doubt. In my opinion the loss of them as moderators is a big one, but maybe more importantly, it is indicative of a problem. If I understand correctly, their resignation has much to do with Wembaster's decision about Ciryaher. I have nothing against a person having a second chance, and while I am skeptic my mind is not closed to the possability that Moderator-Ciryaher will do as he has said, and make this second chance worth it.
> I am literally saddend at the loss of Gothmog and Turgon, but I suppose it is their choice to make. In my opinion, they will not be easy to replace.
> 
> Webmaster said in his post about the resignation of Turgon and Gothmog that Ancalagon might have resgined in part for similar reasons. If this is so, then I think that it is the biggest loss of any one member as a moderator that I can imagine. My opinion of Ancalagon is amazingly high. Though, this was his choice.
> 
> Just wanted to make my thoughts known.



In your 19 posts in the private mod forum, you never said what you're claiming above.

Walter, I was very strongly against the GoR. I told the C9 that. I gave them a laundry list of evidence against it...They made the ultimate decision. However, they included a process for removing the GoR, which it appears will need to be put in place.

I _do_ have a list of people who I would like to see as moderators. 5 out of the 7 are frequent book-forum posters. I recognize the fact that the book section is weak. Unfortunately, moderators are still needed for the sections that create problems. The book forums are relatively calm. Now, removing sections that create problems is an option, but a drastic one. It's not so easy, because they've become homes, havens for people who use them. To remove them is next to impossible.


Now, here's a turning point. How can the moderators change the view of someone else. How is it possible that we can make someone want to discuss something else? People want to talk about what they want to talk about that, and no single person, or even a group can force them to change that. We've accomodated people, but I think it's gone too far.


One last note. Attached are the statistics for TTF...every item on there is one week. The number next to each is how many posts were made. Blue bars are above average, red bars are below. Look at the attachment now.

If you didn't notice, the number of posts have gone down. NLC (New Line Cinemas) has shoved "TOLKIEN" down everyone's throats. No one wants to hear it. NLC realized this, which you haven't heard anything about it in the media. That is why the first trailer to come out for RotK will be next week. The summer is just ending. If I could show you guys the full statistics for the whole existance of TTF, I would. The number of posts is lower than normal. The number of new members is down. The number of new threads is down. You can't blame us for the actions of another group.

There are somethings we can't change. There are some we can. There are some that we need you to tell us about.

I wonder how many people posted in the time I spent writing this


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## Idril

Well here's my observations: Yes the forum has drifted away from Tolkien and his works, while this is great for the sense of community on the forum it is detracting from the main purpose of the forum which is to discuss Tolkien's work.

From my own personal experience, I am very guilty of the drift. But in my defence - I don't have Tolkien on my mind all the time. It is not the only books I've read or am reading. I am sure when I get the time (after re-building my kitchen) to re-read some of the works and I will be back posting in the book fora.

Also I've found, not just with me but some of the other, if we start a thread on a Tolkien topic, we get the 'this topic has been discussed - see this thread' or something like that. It's very off putting, we'd like to discuss something, but because it's been discussed before that's the end of it. Yes is great reading through some of the older threads, but it does not really involve us.

Some Tolkien topics are also beyond me and probably others. Arvedui stated it better


> I know Nóm have started several threads during the last few months. Unfortunately I am not bright enough to be able tohave an opinion on all of them, and one-liners as "I disagree with that view," is simply not my way of expressing myself.



We had a great little activity going with the FAQ's and I haven't the foggiest idea what's happeneing with them now the WM has pulled his support of the joint Wiki venture. My Private Messages box is full of alot of hard work done by forum member on Tolkien's work and it's collecting dust in my PM box. This has dis-illusioned me and has turned me off the forum abit and I'm nowhere as active as I used to be.

A thought perhaps - further to the post-count issue, only posts in the Tolkien related areas get counted (which should not be a problem as this is The Tolkien Forum after all and it's only fair (everything else would technically be treated as stuff & bother). Also the forum is currently being cluttered with lots of nonsense and childish chatter and IRC might help reduce the latter.

There were a few more thoughts but they've drifted out of my head as I was typing this, when I remember I'll post them. But I agree the forum has drifted too far away what it was created for.


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## Talierin

Well, it would help greatly if each of you that would like to see something changed, if you made a list of what you'd like done, and a list of how you would like to see the sections listed, with any additions/removals noted. Then us mods will sit down and consider them, and see what we can come up with that will hopefully please most people.


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## Ancalagon

I have an idea...though I don't know how to do the lightbulb smilie thingy

Why not bring RPGs etc. back to the Tolkien Forum (because I think they belong here) and replace that webspace with a forum dedicated to religious and political discussion


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## Confusticated

> In your 19 posts in the private mod forum, you never said what you're claiming above.


Because never, ever did I expect that you guys would seek to have new mods who were not in the book forum. (That is why I went nuts and ranted and quit when I learned otherwise, or thought I did) In my mind it was a given that when new mods were added they would be people more like myself, or Arvedui for example - book posters. Had I know this may not have been the case I would have obviously pointed it out much earlier than I did.

But let me give the context for that mod forum post you quote me on, because given all I posted after Ancalagon gave his true reason for resigning, it makes me look like a liar if people think I posted that AFTER I posted the public stuff about Ciryaher. For anyone who cares, I made that post right after I become a mod... the same night or maybe the next day? And later when Anc's reason for resigning went public and he posted some new information, that is when I turned more against the Ciryaher second chance. My first post in the thread 'Ciryaher' will verify that.

And as for why I didn't point out at that moment that I was not enough to replace them... hehe... I thought it was a given that you all would figure as much! I mean, is it not obvious?

but furthermore:


> I am literally saddend at the loss of Gothmog and Turgon, but I suppose it is their choice to make. In my opinion, they will not be easy to replace.



Which is indicative that I thought it was a given that ya'll knew more book mods were needed.

And:


> Webmaster said in his post about the resignation of Turgon and Gothmog that Ancalagon might have resgined in part for similar reasons. If this is so, then I think that it is the biggest loss of any one member as a moderator that I can imagine.


Note the last sentence - does this not imply that we lost someone huge, which in turn implies that measures must be taken to make up for it?

As for 'if this is so...' 
You mods probably didn't know it, but I knew for a fact why Ancalagon had resigned but had to play dumb due to him not having made his reasons public, and I was indeed just waiting for it to go public (or at least be known to the mods, who I was not about to betray Ancalagon to) so I could say what I thought about it. And well, you all know the rest.



> Now, here's a turning point. How can the moderators change the view of someone else. How is it possible that we can make someone want to discuss something else? People want to talk about what they want to talk about that, and no single person, or even a group can force them to change that. We've accomodated people, but I think it's gone too far.


Well removing the GoR would be a step in the right direction I think. But you are right - it has gone too far, and you can not just yank parts of the forum away without making some people extremely unhappy. Really I am not sure how you guys can do this and keep people happy at the same time.

As is said in my first post, it is up to the book posters to be encouraging and welcoming to people when they do post... I honestly think this is the most powerful thing to be done to cause more Tolkien discussion without making people unhappy that their section has been yanked. Also, if newer readers have questions, there are plenty of us who will gladly answer them and do all we can to give them the information they seek. My problem is I am very much about The Silmarillion and parts of HoME, so I do not get into the LotR forum enough and this is where most newer readers are at. But anyone with questions about The Silmarillion or HoME, I can show you where to post them and they will be answered by people who are happy to do so. I am a big supporter of people reading beyond LotR, but I know The Silmarillion can be tough, but if you turn out to be one of the many people who love this book as much as I do, it will be well worth it. There is so much more to Tolkien and Middle-earth than LotR... it is enormous really... amazing.

PS: hahaha... Anclagon, it is so simple and makes so much sense... ha! It is nearly genious... I think it would work if the RPers are willing to come back! I really do!


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## YayGollum

Oo! Yes, that's a good one. It encourages creativity that only relates to Tolkien. It looks like the people in charge of that R.P.G. type website are thinking about bringing in non-Tolkien type games over there, so this isn't the only place that's veering off. This was my first and main Tolkien type place to show up in, too, and I am especially glad to see that all kinds of people care for it. Even though they sometimes seem a little extreme, but oh well.  Anyways, there's not just a bunch of complaining in this thread. Even if moderator types or whoever might get offended, there are good ideas in plenty of posts before this that seemed to me to be ignored. Should I come in with a list of everything later?


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## Arvedui

I have said this before, and I think it is apropriate that I say it again:

TTF is what _we_ make it.

And 'we' is each and every one of us. So far only 14 out of 1618 members have expressed their view in this thread. That could mean that there is a number of members that think the way it is now is quite all right?


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## Confusticated

Yes, Yay is right. I think a lot of times people do not really try to understand where a person is coming from or try understand the point a person is trying to make. Not to say 'I told you so'... but if you look through the Entmoot thread which was started to see if TTTF should have a religion Guild, you will see that I had been warning all along that it was a step further in the wrong direction and would only increase the rate of the trend which is making Tolkien a smaller part of TTF than a lot of us would like it to be. I have said this in other threads too... I could well envision where it was going to lead us.

In fact I even changed Eriol's (who was one of the biggest supporters of a Religion forum and who argued against many arguements against a GoR) mind. I convinced him a GoR was a bag idea, due it being an advertizement on the main page. I can't help but wonder what those who were in favour of the GoR... those of the C9 who voted for it, as well as Webmaster, thought about the points I raised, But I would like to hear them sometime. 

And PS: now do you believe the motives and purpose I claimed for having brought up that old 'What did the mods delete now' thread? It was, as I said to compare current posting trends with what people such as Grond, Maedhros, and Elbereth and others had to say about the trends at that time which was nearly a year ago. And for anyone who did not even bother to read than thread before accussing me of doing it for ill reasons, I'll tell you know - the posting trends at that time were a lot different, as Grond's post pointed out the Tolkien discussion was up and healthy whereas other stuff was down.


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## Celebthôl

Okay, in accordance with Avedui, ill post my views.

I entirely agree with Idril.


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## Lantarion

Yes please do, that would be very coherent of you. 



> *Originally posted by ithrynluin*
> The Guilds of Religion and Politics, at least, have to be removed from the main page of TTF. Stuff and Bother should be split into two sections, the lighthearted one, and the serious one, and these two fora would be the ONLY off topic sections here on thetolkienforum.com. This will most probably have to encompass The Time Lords as well, though the destiny of The Green Dragon and the Prancing Pony is debatable.


I agree completely, (as my posts in the GoM indicate) except that the Prancing Pony issue should be more widely discussed - but not here. 



> *Originally posted by Talierin*
> Well, it would help greatly if each of you that would like to see something changed, if you made a list of what you'd like done, and a list of how you would like to see the sections listed, with any additions/removals noted. Then us mods will sit down and consider them, and see what we can come up with that will hopefully please most people.


To quote Nóm: Hahaha... Tal, it is so simple and makes so much sense!  This would be a way of ensuring that the requests and needs of the members of TTF be accomodated properly.


> *Originally posted by Arvedui*
> I have said this before, and I think it is apropriate that I say it again:
> 
> TTF is what _we_ make it.
> 
> And 'we' is each and every one of us. So far only 14 out of 1618 members have expressed their view in this thread. That could mean that there is a number of members that think the way it is now is quite all right?


A fabulous point, echoed by Lhun a few posts before. To create an equilibrium both the Administrative forces (Mods) and the Contributative forces (everybody; the members) must strive forward with that notion in mind; in my opinion anyway.
And as for that last point Arvedui, I agree with Sarah's point that many members of TTF are bound to feel good about the curent situation; and frankly I am inclined to believe that also. Apart from the wild sidetrack 'regimes' of the GoR and GoP and some other _perfectly solvable_ if somewhat urgent issues (the Book forum in particular), I feel that TTF is doing well. It isn't doing excellently, as Beorn's little demonstration showed, but it could be far, far worse.


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## Ancalagon

After a great deal of thought and contemplation, I can reveal the name of the website I was thinking of: www.politicalandreligiousdiscussion.com 
Don't worry, I don't expect payment for the name, it just rolled off the tongue so naturally that I thought I would share it with all you lovely people


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## Eledhwen

There are a million and one other places to discuss religion, politics and general chit-chat on the internet, but the fact is that when we see a non-Tolkien subject that interests us, the temptation is there to join in.

I am a Christian, but I voted against giving Religion its own space on the Forum. We already have "Finding God in LotR" so apart from finding God in the rest of Tolkien's works, or discussing his faith or the cosmogony/religion he invented, the rest is inappropriate to here.

When I joined this forum there was the Green Dragon Inn. Now it looks as if everyone has opened their own pub thread and there are pages and pages of them - all just rooms to chat in. Why? I don't even bother looking down there now.

Lhun's right. We, the forum members, should stick to the subject - TOLKIEN. It's got to the stage where I'm reading a non-Tolkien related thread and I think of something that brings his works into the discussion, but I know from experience that it won't be welcome or will be ignored so I don't post. Sad.


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## YayGollum

Well, Confusticated lady, I can't remember what any of the other council of nine type people voted for on the crazy guild of religion idea, but I voted for letting it happen since it seemed to me to be that a lot liked the idea and people who didn't weren't being forced to even look at the place. But then, it was mostly because I *hangs head in shame* had faith in the members. *bawls* But then, weren't we giving these religion type people a chance? What if they suddenly and achingly surprisingly all decide to get along perfectly and twenty-seven thousand Tolkien type experts show up the very next day? Would giving people a chance be so bad? just wondering. Too much faith again. sorry.


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## Ancalagon

I have had another thought...still don't know the smilie!

Something I did not foresee way back was the effect the creation of Guilds would have on the forum, mainly on the discussion in general books fora. Personally, (and I know I was a very strong advocate of Guilds) I think Guilds and the interguild debating tourney have caused more damage to Tolkien discussion than any other section of the forum. The discussion has been divided up, lost inside individual guilds, while the debates have raised wonderful questions that have be discussed for points rather than an end goal of trying to understand and learn.

Some Guilds have been very successful, so much so they have spawned a forum within a forum, and in as much as this is valueable, it makes it less accessible. I wonder if this is where we should be looking for reasons to identify with the demise of general and open Tolkien discussion?

I want to point out that I know how hard people have worked for their Guilds, how much they mean and how proud many should feel for what they have, I do not want to undermine that work or effort.

My point however is simple enough: Have Guilds (and the debating tournament) in general led to the demise of discussion in the Tolkien forum books section?


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## Nenya Evenstar

Well . . . one thing that would undoubtedly help this forum at the moment would be for everyone to encourage and lift each other up instead of tearing and grinding each other down. But truly, I don't think we're doing all that badly.

I have to admit that I have not been involved in much Tolkien discussion, though I am happy to say that I can be. The reason for this is simply that I have a rather busy life, and the time I have online is taken up with the C9 and moderating ME-RPG. And yes, often times I run away from the forum because I get sick and tired of sitting at my computer all day long. But yes, this forum is what we make it. The Moderators are wonderful. WM is wonderful. And yes, the members are wonderful, though they don't always act it. What I would dearly love to see is people encouraging one another . . . I know it happens, but not as much as I'd like to see.

And now, I'd just like to make a suggestion as a C9 member. Use us. If you have a complaint, use us. If you want to see more Tolkien discussion, use us. It is our job to look into your requests and do our very best to do what is right for the forum. Please, email us at [email protected] or contact us on MSN . . . I am on whenever I am online. Feel free to talk to me about anything. I will listen and pass your thoughts on to the rest of the Council, and we will do what we can.


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## Confusticated

I believe that they have, Ancalagon. I have no doubt.

I think the only reason guilds are necessary is to provide a place for projects other than simply discussion.

What I think would be cool is to do away with the guilds and instead open up a forum for Tolkien projects... GoT is an excellent example of a guild that does things which can not be done elsewhere on the forum, however a new forum for research and activies... such as essays or the gallery of characters would do away with the need for guilds, draw more people in, and avoid anyone being reluctant to post in a thread because they don't know whats up with the guilds.

I have not suggested this before (though I did hint around at it in another thread) because I know some Guilds would probably be offended or even enraged, but I think it would be best for everyone once people opened up to the idea.

PS: I think the tournament does more good than harm, but it is questionable. The good thing is that there are only 2 rounds left, and then we'll see what things look like around here.

EDIT: I used to have 'more harm than good' but this was a typo and I just changed it. hehehe maybe my subconcious mind thinks otherwise, huh?


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## Talierin

I'll repeat myself - Make a list of what you would like to see done exactly, and a list of what sections we should have/keep/make in what order!



btw, Aerin and I will do something about GD as soon as I find some spare time


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## Confusticated

Darn! I had a list in that Poll about getting a Guild of Religion, but I think I went back and deleted it!

I can give my own idea for how I think the forum would work out well, but that is not to say everyone would like it.

I'd suggesting leaving The Announcements and members announcements forum as they are, but to get rid of the Mod Announcement and Discussions are, and merge them into the regular Announcements. This should hardly be a problem considering the disucssion one is never used, and the Announcement one only has two threads.

I would also suggest, just for visual neatness, that the Archives not all be listed, but ratehr exist as subforums.

I think that the FAQ forum should be expanded into a forum for general reseach and Tolkien projects that would not fit in the book forums.

I would like to see the OiE, GoS, and GoT go away and any projects they are doing be placed into the above-mentioned forum.

Prancing Pony? I really do not know what all it contains, but perhaps that could all, along with the guild of artists, go into one forum for member art in general - this includes visual arts and writing.

I think there should be a forum for all topics not dealing with Tolkien, and perhaps this could have two subforms, as I see a lot of people want that.

TTF Herald and C9 could actually be subforms in one forum, perhaps?

general discussions could include the forums HoF, Annals, Languages, and Bag End... in other worlds Stuff and Bother would not be included in that group.

I think Tolkien Bars and Inns could be allowed in the PP as it is creative writing, but other Bars and Inns could so in the Light-hearted S&B area, and not allowed to turn into spam. Or perhaps all Inns, if spam can be avoided, shoudl go into the PP (or general arts area).

Hmm thats it for now I may add more later.

If RPGs come back, I think the RP guilds should exist as subforums within the RP forum... or do that however the RPGers want... I'm not in with that crew.


PS: Since I already posted this I'll leave it up, but I am off to put it in a format that is easier to understand as my explaining is sloppy and not so clear.


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## Talierin

Ok, so here's a layout based on Nom's suggestions and some ideas of my own:

*The Works of J.R.R. Tolkien:*
->The Hobbit
->The Lord of the Rings
->The Silmarillion
->The History of Middle-earth and Unfinished Tales
->Other works by Tolkien

*General Tolkien Discussions:*
->The Hall of Fire
->Annals of the Eldanyárë
->The Languages of Middle-earth
->J.R.R. Tolkien: Creator of Middle-earth
->Bag End
->Related Topics
->TTF Tolkien Debating Society

*TTF Tolkien Community Projects:****
->FAQ
->TTF Herald (and sub-fora)

***The Silver Seahorse:*
->Bilbo's Fireplace (new name for s&b)
->->Lighthearted Topics
->->Serious Topics
->Artisans of TTF
->->Scribes and Poets****
->->Artists****
->Guilds of Minas Tirith*****
->->The Guild of Outcasts
->->The Guild of the Periaur

*RPing* (if they wish to bring it back to here, I care not one way or the other)

*TTF News and Announcements:*
->News and Announcements (perhaps we could rename this something more Tolkienish)
->Entmoot

*Member News and Announcements:*
->New Members
->Member Announcements
->Member Websites

*TTF Staff:*
->Council of Nine (and whichever sub-fora they need)
->Stewards of Gondor (i.e. mods)

*TTF Archives*
->The Library of Minas Tirith
->->News and Announcements
->->Threads
->->RPGs
->->Guilds
->->Debates
->->etc, etc, etc

Notes:
*I think it would be nice to have the Tolkien discussion sections at the top of the board, so people see them first as they log onto the site.

**Or some such bar/inn name for the general OT discussion area. Also, I'm for just getting rid of all the GD type threads altogether, I think they're more trouble than they're worth. I know a lot of people are just on here for them, but most of them could well be done on a chat client.

*** I'm not sure what you would like to see in here

****i.e. Guild of Artists and the Prancing Pony (PP is the guild of writers)

*****GOO and Periaur are the two ot-guilds I feel should remain, as the community in both is very good. Time Lords may go, it's my guild, and I confess it's not doing too well cause I don't have the time for it. We can always move its threads to stuff and bother serious stuff.



EDIT: Please post your own ideas for forum layout!


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## Confusticated

*TTF News & Announcements*

News & Announcements (Which could include moderator announcements, or the mod stuff can go in a 'TTF Staff' forum that Talierin suggested).

Entmoot (which will include moderator discussions (should they ever happen... hehehe... or this could go in TTF Staff)

*Member news & Announcements*

New members

Member Announcements

Member WWW sites

*The Works of J.R.R.T.*

The Hobbit

The Lord of the Rings

The Silmarillion

HoME/UT

Other Works by JRRT

*General Discussion* (though maybe the first three can go under the Works of JRRT?)

Hall of Fire

Annals of Eldanyare

Languages of Middle-earth

J.R.R. Tolkien : The Creator of Middle-earth 

Related topics

Bag End

*RPGs* ( _IF_ they come back)

(This the RP folks should suggest a layout for. But I suggest adding RP Guilds as subforms not showing on the main page... any RPGers will find them if they are here.)

*Projects*

Here would go things Like GoS's Revised Ruin of Doriath, GoT's Gallery of Characters...) *prepares to have made bitter enemies*

*Prancing Pony*

(Here can go Inns without spam, poetry, and any creative writings as well as people's visual art galleries)

*Council of Nine*

*TTF Herald*

(Perhaps these last two can be subforums under one heading?... that could be 'TTF Staff' and also include the mod stuff)

*Non-Tolkien discussion*

But with a better name  (perhaps two subforums inside this... one for serious topics such as politics and one for more easy-going stuff such as the 'who has the most annoying avatar?' or 'british dudes' threads )

*Great Smails*

(Sub forums for each one... RPGS, Guilds... so on)

Regarding Guilds that are not Tolkien based, nor RP based... if they want to stay perhaps they can go under the major forum 'non-tolkien' as subforms next to the two S&B type forums (one being serious, one being light-hearted)


Regarding Tal's idea about moving 'Works of JRRT to the top'... it may be a good thing, I am not sure? Perhaps leave the Webmaster announcement forum up top but move the member announcement down... the thing is, I have no real idea about where it should go then. Another idea is to do away with the new members forum, and try to keep all the welcoming in one thread?

Also about the order in which some of these forums have been listed by me... a lot of it is somewhat random... when I try to think about it too much I can come up with no reason one should go abother the other. This goes for everything below Bag End and above Smails.


I just made some alterations based on Talierin's suggestions... one of those is the addition of 'TTF Staff' which I think is a good idea. So the format I present is the one I initially had in mind, but it is annotated (woohoo, I feel like Christopher Tolkien) based on Talierin's idea of TTF Staff.

Though the two ideas presented by Talierin and I are different, they both have a lot in common and the major thing is that they give TTF more focus on Tolkien without banning the non-Tolkien discussions. I am feeling very good about this, and would like to know what everyone else thinks of these ideas.


EDIT!!!!!!!

Good greif, I forgot the movie forum ...

The ony suggestion I have for this is perhaps getting rid of the 'JRRT vs. Jackson' why? because that is what goes on all over the other movie threads anyhow  of course I do not think it would hurt anything if it stayed. *shrugs*

Also, TTT and FOTR may be able to go into one forum now that both are old news and really just two parts of one long movie


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## Talierin

rotfl! so did I! I would leave the three individual movie sections as they are (but make them sub-fora), Mac's got them pretty well sorted out by now, and then just get rid of the tolkien vs pj section as well


I'll edit my forum list...


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## Starbrow

My opinion is that if you don't like the Guild of Religion or any other guild, don't go there! Personally, I pretty much stick to the book topics. I don't quite understand all other guilds.


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## Lúthien Séregon

But the problem is, it's because so many people like to post in places like the GoR of GoP that Tolkien-related subjects have become a second priority, even though this is a Tolkien Forum. So it's no longer really just a simple matter of keeping away from them.

I think, if the Guild of Politics and the Guild of Religion have caused such a deterioration in the interest of Tolkien's works, then either they should just be deleted, or else confined to a small area where they don't take up that much space, on this forum or not. I don't really care any longer - initially I was for them, but it looks like there's really just no need for them now ( perhaps there should be a poll? ).

I liked Tal's idea of moving the Tolkien-related forums higher up on the menu list. I'm pretty much open-minded about everything else though.


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## Starbrow

Why do you think interest in the Guild of Politics and the Guild of Religion has caused a loss of interest in the Tolkien discussions. I see them as different things. If I'm interested in the opinions of other Tolkien fans about religion or politics, I'll go to those particular guilds. I would like to see more people discussing Tolkien's works, but I don't think I can make that happen by closing down another discussion site.

Obviously, many people are interested in posting in the Guild of Politics and the Guild of Religion, why not let them.


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## Beleg

I feel the drop in the posts is also because of the seperation of the RPG section. 
I would make no proposition other they to say leave everything as it is except merge the Guild of Religion into Guild of Politics and give it one common name. Or if it is possible bring the RPG section back on the forum, It adds diversity and attracts people's attention. 
Other then that I don't think any forum should be deleted or messed with.


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## Dáin Ironfoot I

This should be a safe comment for me to make... no reason to make anyone mad.

I am an extremely active member at MERPG, and I can tell you, our numbers are few. With the exception of Nenya, the five mods are never seen online. The Chronicles RPG's have dwindled, due to people leaving and lack of interest. Guild participation is just sad, the Dark Legion and Guilds of Dwarves and Elves are practically non-existent, save for the dedication of Bethelarien. There is scarecely a discussion in our Common Rooms of what should and could be done, and whenever I am online, it seems there is only one, two, or no other members on the site.

ME-RPG was a good idea at first. But now I realize it was a waste of time and space. I realize it has taken away from the Tolkieninity of this site, and the special bonds and friendships developed here. New members do not stick around; the site is dead.

Though WM and the Mods probably cringe at the mention of my name, I ask them to get rid of MERPG. They can look at the stats of that site and see that participation and fun has gone down. I think the RPGs should come back to TTF, it will only enhance the community sense of the forum, and increase interest in Tolkien. Please mods and WM! Just look at MERPG... its not worth its own site... it belongs with TTF.


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## Lúthien Séregon

> Why do you think interest in the Guild of Politics and the Guild of Religion has caused a loss of interest in the Tolkien discussions. I see them as different things.



Although the subjects in themselves may not cause much harm, I think they detract somewhat from the nature of this site. Most recent posts now are usually off-topic, either in S&B or in the GOP/GOR.

I'm not entirely sure about the deletion of the guilds, but I do think they should be at least minimalised or restricted ( and the layout of the forum in general changed somewhat ).


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## Confusticated

Hmm I'm kind of suprised by your post Dain. If you are willing to move back maybe others are too. The thing is, I don't remember why RPGs were moved away in the first place? Maybe for a reason that no longer exists? I guess now we see what Webmaster thinks of the idea and then maybe Ciryaher, Webmaster or Nenya or whoever can open a thread at MERPG to see if the RPers would want to do it.



> Obviously, many people are interested in posting in the Guild of Politics and the Guild of Religion, why not let them.



Have you read the thread in Entmoot with the poll that asks if TTF should have a religion section, and the anouncement about a Religion section that was made by the C9 over in the C9 forum? I think they would answer your question. Myself I am tired of repeating things. Luthien Seregon has given a short and correct answer though 'they detract somewhat from the nature of this site'. Not sure if it satisfies you or not, but more detailed arguement about this can be found in those threads I mentioned.


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## Beorn

The RPG forums were actually moved to try and steer more towards Tolkien related topics. Most of the RPGs are only related to Tolkien in that there are Elvish names, and take place in Middle-earth...

Anyhow, how does this layout look? A + is an offshoot from the above, and a | is continuing to another brach. Only items in the first and second branches would be shown on the front page. For example, News & Announcements, News & Announcements, Member Announcements, Entmoot, The Works, The Hobbit, etc...but not New Members, Member WWW sites, the subguilds of GoT...etc...


Code:


+-News & Announcements
| +-News & Announcements
| +-Member Announcements
| | +-New Members
| | +-Member WWW Sites
| |
| +-Entmoot
|
+-The Works of J. R. R. Tolkien
| +-The Hobbit
| +-The Lord of the Rings
| +-The Silmarillion
| +-HoMe & Other Readings
|
+-General Discussion
| +-The Hall of Fire
| +-Annals of the Eldanyárë
| +-The Languages of Middle-earth
| +-J.R.R. Tolkien : The Creator of Middle-earth
| +-Bag End
| +-The Prancing Pony
|
+-NLC Movies
| +-FotR
| +-TTT
| +-RotK
| +-Tolkien's vs. PJ's
|
+-Stuff & Bother
| +-Green Dragon
| +-Related Topics
|
+-LINK TO RPG site
|
+-Guilds & Societies
| +-Guild of Artists
| +-Guild of Dwarves
| +-Guild of Elves
| +-Guild of Ost-in-Edhil
| +-Guild of Outcasts
| +-Guild of Scholar's Hall
| +-Guild of Periaur
| +-Guild of Tolkienology
| | +-Máhanaxar
| | +-The Noldorin Forge
| | +-The Glittering Caves
| | +-The Library of the Istari
| |
| +-Guild Debate Tournament
| | +-Debates
| | +-Judging
| |
| +-Guild Other Guilds & Societies
| 
+-Site Staff & Other related fora
  +-FAQ
  +-TTF Herald Announcements
  +-(TTF Herald Private Forum)
  +-C9 Announcements
  +-(C9 Private Forum)
  +-Guild of Moderators Announcements
  +-(Guild of Moderators Private Forum)
  | +-(Non Sequitur)
  | +-(Trash Can)
  |
  +-The Great Smials
    +-News & Announcements
    +-Threads
    +-RPGs
    +-Guilds & Societies
    | +-Heren Istarion
    | +-The Dark Legion
    | +-The Guild of Mithril Knights
    | +-The Guild of Politics
    | +-The Guild of Rangers
    | +-The Guild of Religion
    | +-The White Council
    |
    +-Debates


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## Beleg

This is fine by me except that it is missing Guild of Politics, which I don't think has 'flared up' in recent past. [Except for one thread perhaps.]


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## Dáin Ironfoot I

Well I think RPGs should me moved back... its dying without good leadership and member participation. But at the same time is there not enough room on this site or something? I just dont know too much about the forums and etc.

I must say MERPG will die or dwindle to nothing without returning to TTF.


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## Rhiannon

I really don't feel qualified to comment on the state of the forum, as a fairly new member who doesn't know all the whys of what goes on. But I have noticed that tempers seem short, and that everyone in general seems frustrated. Perhaps it's only that I've been exploring the site more, but I didn't notice this before the Guild of Politics and Guild of Religion went up. 

I honestly do not care for these guilds at all. I personally feel like they're out of place at a Tolkien forum, and that more than anything they create hard feelings between members. I thought about participating in them, simply because they are more active than just about anything else, but I quickly remembered how much I dislike political and religious debates; I prefer to simply believe what I believe, and when I disagree with someone to keep it to myself. 
I'm not saying such topics should be banned entirely, but certainly that they should be kept at a minimum. I don't feel that they warrant their own guilds. 

As for the rest of the site, it _is_ large, and could do with being pared down. I haven't participated in the book threads as much as I would like simply because I'm not as well-read as many others here are, and I felt rather out of place, but I do enjoy watching and learning. 

I like the idea of combing the Prancing Pony and the Guild of Artists.

I also like the idea of cutting down on the 'chatter' or 'non-Tolkien' sections, and combining all of them (S&B, all of the inns, etc), with a sub-section for 'serious' and a sub-section for 'light-hearted'. 

I don't like the idea of doing away with the guilds (other than the Guilds of Politics and Religion), but that's for purely selfish reasons; I want the GoO to stay right where it is, as well as the Time Lords.

<edit> I really like Beorn's proposed new lay-out, except of course that the Time Lords are omitted.


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## Eriol

I like Beorn's layout, but I would keep the Guild of Politics, which (as Beleg said) has been "well-behaved" in the recent past. Perhaps it is better if it is deleted (or consigned to "Archives", if there is enough space) too, preempting future trouble...

I am sad to agree with the majority posting here that the Guild of Religion is failing, or has failed. The funny thing is, what is undermining the Guild of Religion is none of the things feared in that old thread to discuss it, but simply rudeness. It seems people are more prone to get rude in the GoR. A pity, but that's how it is; and I am in favor of getting rid of it. 

It was a reasonable trial, but it didn't work. Get the whole thing into Archives and let's get back to Tolkien. Of course, religious discussions will still pop in and out of existence, as they did in the past; I don't think a ban on them would be desirable. I also don't think a ban on political threads would be desirable either, if the GoP is abandoned too. Let them be posted on the "non-Tolkien" forums (sorry Latinists but I think "fora" an amazingly ugly word) if they appear. 

Remember, if the GoR is archived now, the "seeds of discussion" between friendly antagonists have been planted; for instance, I can still talk with Thorin about our differences over PMs or some kind of Instant Messenger. That would be the best thing in my own opinion. 

As for other guilds, if they haven't caused trouble, why worry?


----------



## Aulë

Here is my 'proposal' that will most likely be ignored.
The way I see it, MERPG dies once the 'novelty' had worn off. Also, it was brought in during the Northern Hemisphere summer holidays, giving it a false sense of activity.
The activity it currently has certainly doesn't warrant all those forums that have been set up for it. The 'organization' that was suppost to take place didn't occur because the Mods didn't control it.

Here are my ideas:
-Remove the Green Dragon; replace with IRC Channel.
-Bring back RPGs and the RPG Guilds (Without age-splits).
-Merge GoE and GoD (Already in process), and add Dark Legion and Guild of Rangers
-Split S&B into 2 sections (Serious and Lighthearted)



Code:


+-News & Announcements
| +-News & Announcements
| +-Member Announcements
| | +-New Members
| | +-Member WWW Sites
| |
| +-Entmoot
|
+-The Works of J. R. R. Tolkien
| +-The Hobbit
| +-The Lord of the Rings
| +-The Silmarillion
| +-HoMe & Other Readings
|
+-General Discussion
| +-The Hall of Fire
| +-Annals of the Eldanyárë
| +-The Languages of Middle-earth
| +-J.R.R. Tolkien : The Creator of Middle-earth
| +-Bag End
|
+-NLC Movies
| +-FotR
| +-TTT
| +-RotK
| +-Tolkien's vs. PJ's
|
+-Stuff & Bother
| +-S&B Lighthearted
| +-S&B Serious
| +-The Prancing Pony
|
+-Role Playing Fora
| +-RPG Discussion
| +-The Chronicles
| | +-The War Council
| | +-Senates and Councils
| | +-Realms of Ea
| |
| +-Lighthearted RPGs
| | +-IC
| | +-OOC
| |
| +-Serious RPGs
| | +-IC
| | +-OOC
|
+-Guilds & Societies
| +-Guild of Artists
| +-Guild of Eruhini
| | +-Guild of Dwarves
| | +-Guild of Elves
| | +-Guild of Men (incl. Rangers)
| | +-Guild of Evil (incl. Dark Legion)
| |
| +-Guild of Heren Istarion
| +-Guild of Mithril Knights
| +-Guild of Ost-in-Edhil
| +-Guild of Outcasts
| +-Guild of Scholar's Hall
| +-Guild of Periaur
| +-Guild of Tolkienology
| | +-Máhanaxar
| | +-The Noldorin Forge
| | +-The Glittering Caves
| | +-The Library of the Istari
| |
| +-Guild Debate Tournament
| | +-Debates
| | +-Judging
| |
| +-Guild Other Guilds & Societies
| 
+-Site Staff & Other related fora
  +-FAQ
  +-TTF Herald Announcements
  +-(TTF Herald Private Forum)
  +-C9 Announcements
  +-(C9 Private Forum)
  +-Guild of Moderators Announcements
  +-(Guild of Moderators Private Forum)
  | +-(Non Sequitur)
  | +-(Trash Can)
  |
  +-The Great Smials
    +-News & Announcements
    +-Threads
    +-RPGs
    +-Guilds & Societies
    | +-Heren Istarion
    | +-The Dark Legion
    | +-The Guild of Mithril Knights
    | +-The Guild of Politics
    | +-The Guild of Rangers
    | +-The Guild of Religion
    | +-The White Council
    |
    +-Debates


----------



## HLGStrider

> I think, if the Guild of Politics and the Guild of Religion have caused such a deterioration in the interest of Tolkien's works, then either they should just be deleted



I think the deteriation started before. I think it is much older than the GoR. . .and the GoP was around when the Tolkien discussion was still flourishing.



> I feel the drop in the posts is also because of the seperation of the RPG section.



Undeniably. I can name at least two members who are full time MERPG and no longer interested in this board. . .or don't have time for it.



> I would make no proposition other they to say leave everything as it is except merge the Guild of Religion into Guild of Politics and give it one common name.



I think this is a fairly good idea. I suggested something similar in C9.



> Anyhow, how does this layout look? A + is an offshoot from the above, and a | is continuing to another brach. Only items in the first and second branches would be shown on the front page. For example, News & Announcements, News & Announcements, Member Announcements, Entmoot, The Works, The Hobbit, etc...but not New Members, Member WWW sites, the subguilds of GoT...etc...



Not a bad idea. ..I do find the long menu slightly confusing.



> I like the idea of combing the Prancing Pony and the Guild of Artists.



May I speak out against this? If this would be anything like the combining of the Prancing Pony and the Guild of Writers, it would be devastating. . .

The Guild of Writers used to host thriving discussions on writing, elements of writing, etc. 

It was a great place. When it was combined with the Prancing Pony we ended up with a mess. We now have a section filled with random posting of poetry instead of coherrent poetry discussion. All discussion threads get lost. . .It's ridiculous. I'd like to see the writers guild back rather than lose another guild to PP.

I talked with a member who left the forum and he thinks we are being over policed slightly. . .I'm not sure if I agree. I think the GoR needs more policing and isn't getting the attention it was promised by the mods. Good threads are allowed to go sour by insults that should be punished. 

He also said there weren't many discussion to get into, which is sort of true. I can't think of any new question threads to bring up. A lot of the discussions have fallen sort of dry. We aren't getting good questions anymore. Some that are asked are just too dry. Others are just too dumb. Nothing really controversial. No one is asking "Why did Tolkien do this?" Those threads were always good. It took Harad to bring them up sometimes though. . .

I think combining the GoP and GoR would limit this somewhat. . .also I think the probation period should be longer than intially planned. Right now the guilds are new. Members are spreading wings and learning to use it. It needs a chance for them to get used to the environment. 

I'd like to see the Guild of Writers and perhaps the RP's brought back. I think that would help.

I'd like to see a combination of some of the sections.

I'd like to see people stop being so edgy. It's happening everywhere. In stuff and bother we have conflagurations! It's odd. The post count issue. . .a silly thread on the female mind. . .a lot of things. . .just ended up in fights!

Everyone is on the edge. 

It's like we all need to take a five minute time out.


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## Lhunithiliel

*Guilds*

I don't see ANY problem whatsoever in opening a book-related discussion within a guild and people coming over and participating in it! This thread will show up on the list of the active topics for the day after all! ... And if people are interested in the topic they will go and participate NO MATTER where this thread is!

Beisdes, there are NO _closed_ guilds! And NO wild beasts wander the halls of the guilds so that people would be afraid to show up there....  Neither are people expected to join a Guild in order to participate in an activity going on there.

So... Don't tell me now that the existance of Guilds and their arrangement has "killed" the activity in the books-sections.
So,I *object* to that particular part of opinions and suggestions!
I, for one, would strongly object to getting threads out of the GoT, for example, and place them into some other forum! They are just fine there and if you have read carefully my points above I am sure you'll agree with me!
The projects and the threads in our guild, as in any other guild, are open to everyone and accessible to everyone... so where is the problem participating in them?

I like Arvedui's idea of having a thread with links... Perhaps that can help those who are too "shy" as to show up in a guild and participate in its activities.

Quite another point is the exisence of guilds and societies that either don't provide anything new or just don't function! There are quite a lot of such "guilds" and "societies" on TTF.

IMO, start cleaning them out!

Beorn's lay-out is OK. I would only suggest that TTF-'s first and only Tolkien-writings-related knowledge Quiz could be possibly somehow made visible to everyone. Our guild is taking care of this Quiz and our members get in-guild ranks based on the levels passed in that Quiz, but it is open to every member of TTF, who would wish to "check" her/his Tolkien-related knowledge.!


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## Talierin

Please check out Nom and I's layouts too, they're several posts above Beorn's 

EDIT: oh yes, how bout making a poll with everyone who's submitted a layout on it and then voting for which one we like the best, and then work off of it to get it the best possible


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## Idril

I don't think it's a case of voting for one layout, rather it's a matter of combining the best of all 3. The only thing I've noticed is the actual FAQ (when someone makes a decision about it's format etc.) needs to be under the 'Works of Tolkien'. The working thread for the project is fine lower down on the page with other projects.

As for the Guilds - I've seen really interesting things/threads going on in some Guilds, but because it's under the auspices of a Guild with membership, I don't get involved.. These threads and activities are confined within a small section of the forum and it would be nice for it to be more readily accessible to the rest of the forum (and yes I know everyone can get involved in these threads and there aren't any closed Guilds).


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## Snaga

I say get rid of the GoP and especially GoR. If political/religious issues arise in relation to Tolkien they belong here, if not they do not. Then if people want to discuss this stuff, they could do it in Stuff and Bother, but with a strong mandate to the mods to close threads where the tone gets nasty.

I am one of the worst offenders for getting cantankerous in these two Guilds, so I am pretty sure I am not alone in saying that if the forum didnt provide a platform for these discussions, I'd actually like it better. Whilst they are there, its hard to ignore them.

I think this is something the forum as a whole needs to be brave about. Its the easiest thing in the world to let everything grow as it will, but the best gardens get pruned and shaped.


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## Lantarion

Mike what on earth are you playing at with having the PP in S&B?? The quality of the posts in PP warrant a far better palce than Stuff and Bother!
And Aulë, I thought we had agreed that at least some of the Guilds had to go: your layout suggests that we keep them all as they are. This I do not agree with.

I agree totally with Talierin's plan, although I think more thought should go into the names of the sections.. (No offense, dear ). But I also agree with Nóm that the GoT is one of the best operating Guilds and should not be changed in any way. There is nothing in there that does not pertain to Tolkien (as the name of the Guild might lead one to believe ).


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## HLGStrider

I think we're all over reacting and it would be wise to give the GoR a little more time. 

And if you know you're getting cantakerous there either leave it or curb your temper.


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## Confusticated

I don't see how how any of this is over-reacting. Tolkien is a smaller percentage of this forum that it should be in my opinion, but more importantly it is becoming an even smaller percentage all the time. If people want to fight for a GoR or GoP I think they are wrong to do it here at this forum, especially when so many of us would rather not have those guilds, even a lot people who can not resist posting in them would rather seem them go.

I am not sure if the people who support GoR and GoP understand quite how ridiculous some of us think doing so is, or how much it burns some of us up. It can not be denied that having whole sections dedicated to religion and politics encourages even more religion and political discussion than would go on if it had to be grouped together in Stuff and Bother.

When TTF encourages and advertises non-Tolkien discussion so blatantly, and are so welcoming to it as to provide a whole forum for it, you are encouraging it. There is no denying that.

I would like to see the stuff discouraged... not given so much importance as to keep its own sections.

To be frank it sickens me that people still support it at TTF. Go on and on and on and on and on about Christ and Bush elsewhere! If people cannot see that each section of the forum is a part of the whole forum and does effect the other - that person is pretty narrow-sighted.


----------



## HLGStrider

I think the excitement will eventually die down in the GoR. I'm in favor of combining it with GoP to speed this up.

However, the GoP has been here almost as long as I have, and in that time it has caused some trouble, but it has not taken over the forum. 

The way to rejuvenize the LotR's sections is to get some INTERESTING discussions going. We haven't had one in forever. I'm just as guilty. I can't think of a thing to say, so I started reviving some old threads last night.

I say give the GoR more of a chance and combine it with GoP.


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## Ancalagon

Elgee, as much as I can't empathise with you in relation to the GoR/GoP, I still think they should be removed from the forum. If the decision to bring RPGs back to TTF is made, then I think it would prove an opportunity for WM to branch out into a new and interesting field by using the existing webspace to provide a discussion forum for everything else that is controversial in this forum not related to the Professor. Surely this would answer the prayers of those who enjoy the Guild of religion...answer the prayers, get it

Lhun, as I stated earlier, my post regarding Guilds and debates was not in any way to detract from the effort and work put into such enterprising sections, simply that they need scrutinised just as intently as any other section of the forum. Once again, simply put, the whole is greater that the sum of its parts.


----------



## Confusticated

This is what I do not understand:

How can people not be moved by knowing that many of the other Tolkien lovers (according to the big poll half of us were against the GoR anyhow!) would rather keep this site mostly about Tolkien. Is that such a hard request to bend to?

It is not just the fact these topics cause dispute, it is a lessening of Tolkien as a priority at TTF.



> Then Fingon looked towards Thangorodrim, and there was a dark cloud about it, and a black smoke went up; and he knew that the wrath of Morgoth was aroused, and that their challenge was accepted. A shadow of doubt fell upon Fingon's heart; and he looked eastwards, seeking if he might see with elven-sight the dust of Anfauglith rising beneath the hosts of Maedhros. He knew not that Maedhros was hindered in his setting-forth by the guile of Uldor the accursed, who deceived him with false warnings of assault from Angband.
> But now a cry went up, passing up the wind from the south from vale to vale, and Elves and Men lifted their voices in wonder and joy. For unsummoned and unlooked for Turgon had opened the leaguer of Gondolin, and was come with an army ten thousand strong, with bright mail and long swords and spears like a forest. Then when Fingon heard afar the great trumpet of Turgon his brother, the shadow passed and his heart was uplifted, and he shouted aloud: 'Utulie'n aure! Aiya Eldalie ar Atanatari, utulie'n aure! The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come! And all those who heard his great voice echo in the hills answered crying: 'Auta i lome! The night is passing!'


----------



## HLGStrider

> How can people not be moved by knowing that many of the other Tolkien lovers (according to the big poll half of us were against the GoR anyhow!) would rather keep this site mostly about Tolkien. Is that such a hard request to bend to?



How can people not be moved by knowing that other Tolkien lovers (according to the big poll half of us were in favor of the GoR anyhow!) would rather have an opportunity to disuuss other things while remaining mostly about Tolkien. Is that such a hard thing to get used to?


----------



## Confusticated

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> *How can people not be moved by knowing that other Tolkien lovers (according to the big poll half of us were in favor of the GoR anyhow!) would rather have an opportunity to disuuss other things while remaining mostly about Tolkien. Is that such a hard thing to get used to? *


A lot of the people do not remain mostly about Tolkien.

This is supposed to be a Tolkien forum. Not Tolkien plus Religion and Politics. Religion and Politics is such a big part of TTF, that it really should be included in the title of this site.

We could just as well talk about politics and religion in Stuff and Bother like most of the people do with their non-Tolkien interests.

If you can not see the difference between people wanting to keep the site mostly (by far!) about Tolkien and having a right to do so, and those who want to make a huge part of TTF about Religion and Politics having a right to do so, then I guess it is beyond trying to reason about it.


----------



## HLGStrider

> A lot of the people do not remain mostly about Tolkien.



People are people. You'll always have kid posters who are in only in stuff and bother. You'll always have those who are in mostly in Politics. We aren't here to control people.



> Religion and Politics is such a big part of TTF, that it really should be included in the title of this site.



So combine them. Why is this such a sudden thing? We've had politics for over a year, and it never took over. Why is it doing so now? 



> If you can not see the difference between people wanting to keep the site mostly (by far!) about Tolkien and having a right to do so, and those who want to make a huge part of TTF about Religion and Politics having a right to do so, then I guess it is beyond trying to reason about it.



I don't want a huge part, but I want a small part, and I'd like to see that small part in a seperate place from stuff and bother which is just too ridiculous to bother with most of the time.

Perhaps we should have a serious stuff and bother and a lighthearted stuff and bother.

I heard that suggested once.


----------



## Dáin Ironfoot I

I dont think branching out is a good idea at all. Look at ME-RPG... point is, we all need to be on TTF, and drift around the different forum topics as we may. I dont think GoP and GoR should be totally removed, too many of our members would be lost without it. Instead they should be consolidated and watched more closely...

The tolkien related subjects should be the prirority however.


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## HLGStrider

Everytime we branch out we lose. We lost a lot when we lost the Guild of Writers. We can do this. We just need to be sensible.


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## Confusticated

> I dont think GoP and GoR should be totally removed, too many of our members would be lost without it.



Which members would these be? Those who care more about discussing politics and religion than Tolkien. I know I would not miss anyone who would leave TTF because they'd rather not post about the books.

But as I have admitted, maybe I am too extreme and in the minority with being so unhappy about the rise in religion which together with politics is such a hot topic that people rather go there than to the book forums, and that have enough priority to have their own forums here at TTF which encourages even more of it. Those against GoR and GoP are probably fighting a losing battle anyhow.




> I don't want a huge part, but I want a small part, and I'd like to see that small part in a seperate place from stuff and bother which is just too ridiculous to bother with most of the time.


It would be nice, and less ridiculous if not so many ridiculous polls were made just to 'annoy the mods'.


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## HLGStrider

> It would be nice, and less ridiculous if not so many ridiculous polls were made just to 'annoy the mods'.



Eriol did statistical research and I only post about fifteen percent in Stuff and Bother. . .which is better than most of the top ten.



> Which members would these be? Those who care more about discussing politics and religion than Tolkien. I know I would not miss anyone who would leave TTF because they'd rather not post about the books.



I think it is easy to dwindle when you discuss only the books. I personally try to stay updated on all sections of the forum. I would miss some who would leave for this reason. 



> Those against GoR and GoP are probably fighting a losing battle anyhow.



No, you seem to have the powerbrokers on your side.


----------



## Confusticated

I am not sure who you mean by 'power brokers'... perhaps Beorn? But all the same... as far as I know these are all the people who had been against the GoR all along, and we could not stop it from happening. To take it out of existance would be more of a task than preventing it in the first place, so I am skeptical about it.


----------



## HLGStrider

We'll see.


----------



## Lhunithiliel

> _Originally posted by Talierin _
> *Ok, so here's a layout based on Nom's suggestions and some ideas of my own:
> 
> The Works of J.R.R. Tolkien:
> ->The Hobbit
> ->The Lord of the Rings
> ->The Silmarillion
> ->The History of Middle-earth and Unfinished Tales
> ->Other works by Tolkien
> 
> General Tolkien Discussions:
> ->The Hall of Fire
> ->Annals of the Eldanyárë
> ->The Languages of Middle-earth
> ->J.R.R. Tolkien: Creator of Middle-earth
> ->Bag End
> ->Related Topics
> ->TTF Tolkien Debating Society
> 
> TTF Tolkien Community Projects:***
> ->FAQ
> ->TTF Herald (and sub-fora)
> 
> **The Silver Seahorse:
> ->Bilbo's Fireplace (new name for s&b)
> ->->Lighthearted Topics
> ->->Serious Topics
> ->Artisans of TTF
> ->->Scribes and Poets****
> ->->Artists****
> ->Guilds of Minas Tirith*****
> ->->The Guild of Outcasts
> ->->The Guild of the Periaur
> 
> RPing (if they wish to bring it back to here, I care not one way or the other)
> 
> TTF News and Announcements:
> ->News and Announcements (perhaps we could rename this something more Tolkienish)
> ->Entmoot
> 
> Member News and Announcements:
> ->New Members
> ->Member Announcements
> ->Member Websites
> 
> TTF Staff:
> ->Council of Nine (and whichever sub-fora they need)
> ->Stewards of Gondor (i.e. mods)
> 
> TTF Archives
> ->The Library of Minas Tirith
> ->->News and Announcements
> ->->Threads
> ->->RPGs
> ->->Guilds
> ->->Debates
> ->->etc, etc, etc
> 
> Notes:
> *I think it would be nice to have the Tolkien discussion sections at the top of the board, so people see them first as they log onto the site.
> 
> **Or some such bar/inn name for the general OT discussion area. Also, I'm for just getting rid of all the GD type threads altogether, I think they're more trouble than they're worth. I know a lot of people are just on here for them, but most of them could well be done on a chat client.
> 
> *** I'm not sure what you would like to see in here
> 
> ****i.e. Guild of Artists and the Prancing Pony (PP is the guild of writers)
> 
> *****GOO and Periaur are the two ot-guilds I feel should remain, as the community in both is very good. Time Lords may go, it's my guild, and I confess it's not doing too well cause I don't have the time for it. We can always move its threads to stuff and bother serious stuff.
> 
> EDIT: Please post your own ideas for forum layout!  *


Tal, although I agree with you on some points, I'd say that *THIS* layout is simply *OUT OF THE QUESTION*! 

Besides, what impressed me very much is that in all the suggested lay-outs the TTF-Herald is present. Well, will someone honestly tell me - why would a NON-functioning section be kept?  

Idril, I still cannot understand where is the "danger" of entering into the space of a guild and participate in the activities one finds interesting?
Have you read my post at all? 

My lay-out highlights very briefly:
1/ Put the books-sections in the uppermost fields on the main page - to be the first seen when someone opens it.
2/ Then let the movie-section be the next
3/ Then would come the archive-section - it holds most valuable threads Tolkien-dedicated!!!
4/ Guilds and societies
5/ Further on - the order of the other things to be a subject of decision of the Mods.


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## HLGStrider

I like that, Lhun.

You're keeping the GoP and GoR in yours then and just downsizing and hiding them?


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## Idril

> _Originally posted by Lhunithiliel _
> *Idril, I still cannot understand where is the "danger" of entering into the space of a guild and participate in the activities one finds interesting?
> Have you read my post at all?*



But GoT seems so much like an exclusive club to an outsider (the country club of the forum so to speak.) But hey, it's just how I feel... . I just though the great things you have going on within your guild could be more part of the general forum - I mean, I look at GoT and see it as how the rest of the forum should be funtioning/looking (I will probably be slaughtered by Maedhros now).

Catching up on this thread this morning, especially about GoR and GoP, I thought all of Tolkien's books are about about politics, war and religion (good conquering evil). 

GoP and GoR should be combined under a single heading (Anc and YayGollum had 2 great names lined up) and consign it to a section in Stuff & Bother because that's what it is - other stuff in a Tolkien related forum, (I don't even know why they are called 'guilds'? as they are not in the truest sense of the word).


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## Lantarion

> *Originally posted by HLGStrider*
> I say give the GoR more of a chance and combine it with GoP.


It's not about giving it a chance, it's abot what belongs where. And a general sub forum for world politics and religions does _not_ belong in a Tolkien forum, no matter what people say. I realize that this is a great community of sorts, and I used to believe that religious and/or political discussions could be had; but I have seen overhwelming evidence to the contrary.


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## Confusticated

> Once again, simply put, the whole is greater that the sum of its parts.



It could be that people are not willing to envision how things could be instead of how they are now with the guilds. Maybe they are looking at what will be lost, and not trying to see what can be gained. Which is too bad, because until they do I do not expect they will see how it would be better for the forum. Maybe I'm a hypocrite or some kind of jerk for having my opinion considering I am not a member of those guilds. But I have no doubt that while I was a member of GoS I had these ideas and would have liked to see this done. 

The only problem I can foresee with doing something like I suggest is that having a variety of activities going on in one forum may be a bit confusing since a lot of activities would require more than one thread. Surely no more confusing though, than the guilds are for some members. The advantage is it will be open to all people beyond a doubt and they will know it, and they need only look into one forum to see it all rather than do what they might feel is 'intruding' on a variety of guilds. The other advantage is that the regular disucssion threads will be in the book forums where more people will see them.

About people such as Idril being reluctant to post in the guild threads, I understand her point of view and I believe there are others like her. Not only that but based on who does and who does not post in guild book discussions and activites, and given those who do post in the book forums... it can be concluded that a lot of people who come here to post about the books either do not look into the guilds, or do not feel welcomed to post. Also, from the time I have spent watching Who's Online, I'd dare say that a lot of them do not even look... maybe if they did look they would feel more welcomed though. It is too easy to feel like an outside when you are hanging with people who all part of a group that you are not in.

Earlier I gave what I believe to be the only solid purpose of the guilds. That is: Some guild activities just wouldn't fit into the book forums.

The other purpose of them, the one I did not mention, is that it allows its members to feel like a part of a group. The thing is that it is working together which bonds people and causes that feeling. This same thing would take place in an activities forum with the people you work with.

What I am asking now, is why should the book discussion guilds stay in place rather than put all activities into a forum for such things and all regular discussions into whichever forum they belong in?

What would be lost, and what would be gained? A step forward, or step back?


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## Ancalagon

There are a couple of areas I see that need consideration, but of course it all very much depends on what exactly people want from this forum. If the sole purpose of the forum is to discuss Tolkien, then we would need to cut back on a great many irrelevant sections of the forum that have little or nothing to do with Tolkien at all. However, there is also a need to ensure balance of interest and ensure all areas of the forum are accessible to all members. Whether people feel they can involve themselves in certain areas or not is very much a key to inclusion. Furthermore, there needs to be a structure of ensuring Tolkien himself is given pride of place while also maintaining a balance of interests for all members. Though in truth, the scales should weigh heavily in favour of the Professor.

Now, lots of people are rattling off ideas for the forum, but I wonder just how much consideration has been given to appreciating the diversity of our members. Many of whom adore Tolkien above all else, some who like Tolkien and love the movies, some who like the movies and have a passing interest in Tolkien, some who have no idea why they are here but like it because it appeals to all comers. So, how does one ensure all members needs are catered for?

Well, certainly a forum called 'The Tolkien Forum' has a definite identity from which all else should emanate. Tolkien and everything relating to him should be most prominent in the layout. Fora offering discussion on his work needs to be highlighted, neon-blazed across the forum because the majority of people coming to the forum are here for him alone. They are not seeking Politics, Religion, RPGs, Guilds, Heralds or Bars and Inns (*spit*) but simply to discuss Professor Tolkien, his work or the movies _loosely_ based on his work. SO, should the forum be simplified, with more sub-fora hidden and greater emphasis given to the books? Beorn and WM were likely correct a long time back when the changes to the forum were made: the forum looks too busy, too much to scroll through and too much not relevant to his works. I fought against it because I thought a busier forum would be more attractive, when in reality I don't think it matters to users at all, because they arrived here in search of one interest. 

So, what to do for those who enjoy 'socialising' on the forum? We must be realistic and not forget that Professor Tolkien cannot be discussed constantly, because the social animal within each of us desires to change subject once in a while and get our teeth into other subject matter! We like to discuss Tolkien of course, but we also like Politics, we like religion, but not brow-beaten by it! WE like to feel part of a club, to belong, to feel included in something that appeals to out nature, whether that be art, history, a Guild or RPGs, journalism et al. This is a community, it thrives on diversity and creativity, but it will fail on constriction and confinement. People need to be able to release themselves, especially as many spend so much time within this community. So, consider again what exactly you want from the forum, how it appeals to your nature and what interests it can cater for, but do not lose sight of your reason for being here or be selfish in your motives for the GOOD of the forum.


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## Confusticated

> . Fora offering discussion on his work needs to be highlighted, neon-blazed across the forum because the majority of people coming to the forum are here for him alone. They are not seeking Politics, Religion, RPGs, Guilds, Heralds or Bars and Inns (*spit*) but simply to discuss Professor Tolkien, his work or the movies loosely based on his work.



I notice you say 'majority' of people, and I do think having GoR and even GoP on the main page could make this majority smaller. Not only that, but politics and religion are topics that take of quickly, and eventually there could be more members joining, not because so and so told them it is a good Tolkien site, but because so and so told them there is discussions on religion. This was my original concern, and I may be taking it too seriously.

Regarding selfish motives:

As one of the people who have been tossing out ideas, who you reffered to, I do question my motives for the ideas I post. I suppose I am being selfish but I have been excusing it by the fact that my own motives and wishes happen to be Tolkien as a priority far above all at TTF. Maybe I am mistaken when I think this opinion should apply to most of us. I fully admit I may be more fanatic about Middle-earth than a lot of other people, or that I may like putting in my opinion about Middle-earth more than some others, so maybe I am leaning too far on the Tolkien side here. But any way I look at it, I can not see any reason non-Tolkien topics should have their own forum. Stuff and Bother and especially bars and Inns should be enough, in my opinion. 

Bars and Inns, if someone would keep an eye on them and shut them down if they turn into dirt, could be a really great thing. Unfortunately we have a lot of umm I guess what I would call default Bars and Inns.. someone opens one up like this 'The Crazy Monkey Sandwich Bar is now open... come on in and get your drinks.' And that may be followed up with 'Nom walks in and asks for an ale' and then similar posts thereafter. No matter how I try to see this from other people's point of view I can not fathom how any enjoyment comes from Bars like that. With politics and religion at least I can well understand people jumping in and enjoying it. I would not wish for these topics to be forbidden at TTF, and to me, no matter how I try to look at it and understand others, I cannot bring myself to any viewpoint where this stuff deserves its own area in my opinion.
Stuff and Bother for all non-Tolkien topics, and Bars and Inns for socializing.. though in truth I have trouble calling my ideal Bar or Inn a place for socializing.... more like role-play socializing... but not chit chat... real topics, philosophical ponderings or story telling through the characters in an imagined setting. However I know that is not how many view Bars and Inns. But because I know some like to socialize, I think they should be allowed to exist even if people like me think most of them are boring and can't fathom how folks are enoying themselves. So all in all, I do not think I am being too selfish here... if I am I promise I am not aware of it.

What I personally want from TTF is all about Tolkien, I know I started a thread about chocolate several months ago, and thread about an elf painting looking like Celebthol a few weeks ago, and a thread about love a few months ago... but those extra things I did just because there is such a place for them, in truth I would not have been bothered had I not been able to make a poll about chocolate or thread to get folks thoughts on love... but that Thol thread had to happen!  Even considering all of this, I think non-Tolkien topics should be allowed to happen here, only because I know it is important for other members... which I do not think is a selfish thing.


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## Ancalagon

ROTFL.

I remember reading the 'chocolate' thread and shaking my head thinking; Nóm has really let the Tolkien side down with this insane foray into non-relevant material


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## Lhunithiliel

Anc, what you said is what I think to be right, meaning that though I'd wish to see more Tolkien books-related threads in TTF, I also understand that it would be too boring if it is ONLY this and no opportunities for socializing.

But I also agree concerning the inns and bars... pure waste of space IMO! Or keep *one only* such place where TTF-er can go and socialize. But to have dozens of these .....  I don't think it is necessary. One will be enough and....you know...*necessary* 

Guilds (again  ) - How to convince people that entering into a guild's space brings NO danger to anyone?!? 
There is a thread I saw called "About guilds" (...or sth. alike) so, I think I'll go there and discuss this matter.
But in no way have I meant the inner organization in the GoT to turn it into a closed society within TTF!!!!  On the contrary! It was a complete chaos of threads... I had to rearrange it somehow in order to and for the purpose of making the guild's space more easily accessible to *everyone* - member or not of the guild itself.


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## Talierin

I just spent an afternoon cleaning out Green Dragon... at least of the old threads not in use. I still don't know what to do with the inns that are left, most of them are crap, but there's still the fact that they're popular... suggestions would help...


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## Aulë

Delete them, and replace with an IRC channel.
Most of the threads are just made up of idle chit-chat, and could easily be substituted with an IRC channel. (I believe that WM was looking at starting one up again).


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## Talierin

see this thread  http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13352


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## Eledhwen

Tee Hee! Yes, I'm ashamed of the tone of some of the debates between Christians, but add to the cocktail all the other religions trying to convert one another and you've got a rare ol' scrap on your hands. I think all religious discussions should be Tolkien related on a Tolkien forum, but I don't expect others to agree, just like I don't expect them to agree that the million and one silly pub names in the Green Dragon thread are a waste of space.


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## HLGStrider

> It's not about giving it a chance, it's abot what belongs where. And a general sub forum for world politics and religions does not belong in a Tolkien forum, no matter what people say.



Neither does stuff and bother. . .



> but I have seen overhwelming evidence to the contrary.



I can point out PLENTY of decent, non-confrontational debate threads. I'm fine with deleting a thread that goes awry, sometimes even if it has good debate, or at the very least clearing it out.



> Stuff and Bother and especially bars and Inns should be enough, in my opinion.



The problem with stuff and bother is that it is a RIDICULOUS mess. I used to frequent it quite a bit, but now I don't really, besides my own (equally ridiculous I'm afraid) threads. 

I think a serious off subject section, a section for controversial issues or serious issues, if you want to call them that, would be a great idea. I suggested it the moment the original GoR was proposed. I am still in favor of it.


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## Confusticated

< What's up?) (just browsing TTF >


 < Sounds fun!) (Indeed! > 


 < check the beloved GoR and P!). . .

 < lets go complain!)


 < Why do these get their own forums?) 

 < This stuff does not belong!)

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .(uh...umm..uh..


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## HLGStrider

Want to explain your post?


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## Rhiannon

I am _so_ lost. 

But that's okay. I can deal with that.


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## Confusticated

> Want to explain your post?


Not really, but since people don't see the point I guess I will. I was just making fun of us over all this GoR and GoP stuff.


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## Rhiannon

Well, at least I got that part right...I feel so clever...


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## Arvedui

Just a little observation:
We are discussing the future layout of TTF here. How many regular posters in the GoP or GoR have you seen around? I have seen one...

Secondly: Lhun, I understand you views about keeping the GoT as it is, and that you are dead serious when you say that all are welcome to post there. But why is it that few members do? I know I don't! No matter what you say, I personally feel as if I am intruding whenever I stand on your 'doorstep.' Even if you have said innumerable times that I am welcome. It just doesn't feel right!
And how come what you are doing at GoT now (which is great, IMO!!!) can not be done elsewhere? Why can't we discuss the works of JRR Tolkien in the section made for those discussions? Even if Lantarion thinks that there is something that needs fixing over there... 

Finally: A number of the proposed lay-outs for TTF is missing one section: *Other works by J.R.R. Tolkien.*


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## Lhunithiliel

> _Originally posted by Arvedui _
> Just a little observation:
> Lhun, I understand you views about keeping the GoT as it is, and that you are dead serious when you say that all are welcome to post there. But why is it that few members do? I know I don't! No matter what you say, I personally feel as if I am intruding whenever I stand on your 'doorstep.' Even if you have said innumerable times that I am welcome. It just doesn't feel right!
> And how come what you are doing at GoT now (which is great, IMO!!!) can not be done elsewhere? Why can't we discuss the works of JRR Tolkien in the section made for those discussions? Even if Lantarion thinks that there is something that needs fixing over there...


Arvedui,
What we are doing at the Guild IS OPEN to everyone!

Let's for example take the latest suggested activity - Round II of the Lecture Cycle.
We have posted an official announcement for everybody to read and if they find an interesting topic - participate. We did the same with Round I, as well! Only a few were those who then enlisted for that activity that were not from the guild. Yet there were!
There have also been a couple of projects that we "exported" out of the Guild because we had decided that it would have been much better to have all TTF-ers involved.
Or take the Quiz. ...
These activities were, have been and are at the open view of everybody.
They appear on the front page and I really can't see any reason why a person would feel uneasy to just go to the thread and participate.
There is *not a single* thread in the Guild that is closed or restricted to GoT-members only!

How does then the place matter?! 

Remember a game that Ancalagon opened once at your Guild? Was it visited by your guild-members only? No! 
Personally, when I see a good topic on the screen I go to check it and I'm not at all interested where it is - in which forum! I AM being honest!!! I hardly ever look at that column which points where the thread is located. If it interests me - I just go there and if I can and if I feel qualified and if it turns to be an interesting and appealing one, I try to participate.
And it is not only me. I have seen other people do it - in GoT or anywhere else.

On the other hand, I have tried to do my best as to maximum facillitate anybody who comes to the guild's space. There is an introduction thread that explains what is what and what to find where...
It is so very simple!  

The previous "chaos" of numerous threads of various kinds was much worse. One could not find anything! Now it is a lot easier.

I wish I could find other words as to express how happy we all are when "guests" arrive to participate in some of our projects or discussions!!! But English is the "common tongue" in the TTF-community and I am just trying to use my knowledge of it as well as I can in order to explain our attitude.

As for discussions held outside the GoT ... Well, have I ever been against?
There are and were quite a number of marvellous one that were and are not held within any guild. 

You see, to my understanding, the problem is not in the existing of the guilds!
It's people's interest in Tolkien works that has to be awaken. 

We are just trying to do what we can in this respect.


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## HLGStrider

> We are discussing the future layout of TTF here. How many regular posters in the GoP or GoR have you seen around? I have seen one...



You mean within this discussion. . .very few, which is one of the problems. I've been pming regular posters there for the last few days on a bet (sort of) from Aule, and most of them don't even know that deleting the section is being discussed. Besides Beorn's warning announcement and one post by me and the guild of Christians it is never mentioned in that section. None of these threads have titles that directly involve the GoR. . .in fact, if I hadn't have become involved in this before the name was changed, I probably wouldn't have become involved with it at all. I have little interest in forum layout other than the deleting of things. I would assume this was dealing with some sort of web design thing and not even read it.


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## Arvedui

Just one small correction, Elgee:
As far as I have understood, the contents of the named Guilds will not be deleted. 
They will be moved.

Theres a minute difference there...


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## Legolam

I don't know if this has already been suggested (I've only read the last 2 pages of discussion) but why not put the Guild of Politics as a subsection of S+B? That way, it'd be hidden from the front page but still in its own little place where threads would be easy to find. I guess this is along the same sort of line as the "serious S+B".

PS Elgee, you should have PMed me about the GoP! I had no idea the discussion was going on as I don't usually frequent the News or Announcements forums.


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## DGoeij

I'm not a very regular poster in the GoP, but I do like to participate sometimes. I'm a student in political science, so what do you expect? 

But if this Guild was to be moved, becoming a subsection of the Stuff and Bother and thereby taken off the front page, I wouldn't really care for it. I'd find it and visit it anyway.

But the front page really needs some work. I never really look at it anymore, but it is way too long!

I don't see why all the guilds should be listed at the front page for instance.


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## Eledhwen

Good point DGoeij. Perhaps two divisions: Tolkien-related guilds and other guilds; the latter maybe being in S&B


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## DGoeij

> _Originally posted by Eledhwen _
> *Good point DGoeij. Perhaps two divisions: Tolkien-related guilds and other guilds; the latter maybe being in S&B *



Something like that. My main point is the length of the front page. By changing it into something shorter AND more pointing towards Tolkien-related issues, I think would be an improvement. But off course, looks aren't everything. 

And I wondered about the 'latest post' seach option. Is it possible that it could be divided into a Tolkien and a non-Tolkien section? That way one wouldn't have to filter out all the non-Tolkien discussions that're going on all by oneself. Unless we would be able to bring these amounts really down. But I don't see myself as a big help in that to be honest. I like talking with people in general too much to stick to Tolkien alone. No matter how much I love ME.


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## Eledhwen

> _Originally posted by DGoeij _
> *And I wondered about the 'latest post' search option. Is it possible that it could be divided into a Tolkien and a non-Tolkien section? That way one wouldn't have to filter out all the non-Tolkien discussions that're going on all by oneself. Unless we would be able to bring these amounts really down. But I don't see myself as a big help in that to be honest. I like talking with people in general too much to stick to Tolkien alone. No matter how much I love ME. *


 I'll second that! Sometimes there are _NO_ Tolkien-related posts in it at all! Being able to select Tolkien-only would perhaps bring up the book threads etc. more often, gently nudging people into that area.


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## DGoeij

> _Originally posted by Eledhwen _
> *I'll second that! Sometimes there are NO Tolkien-related posts in it at all! Being able to select Tolkien-only would perhaps bring up the book threads etc. more often, gently nudging people into that area. *



Especially me! Everytime I finally remember to stroll into the book sections, simple questions by new members have all been answered, robbing me of opportunities to look smart. 

The Aragron a Snob? Thread is pretty interesting, yet is was going on for 4 pages by the time I noticed it.*sigh*

Off course, you could simply blame it on my laziness to visit the book sections more often, but then again, Computers were invented for lazy persons!


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## HLGStrider

> Theres a minute difference there...



I was told they were being achived which to me suggested that they wouldn't be able to be replied to anymore which is the same as being deleted. . .Often they archive threads before deleting them (such as the Dragon Bar).



> PS Elgee, you should have PMed me about the GoP! I had no idea the discussion was going on as I don't usually frequent the News or Announcements forums.



Sorry. I didn't think of it. I was only dealing with GoR posters because that was the one I was challanged to find support for. . . and I have. . .



> The Aragron a Snob? Thread is pretty interesting, yet is was going on for 4 pages by the time I noticed it.*sigh*



WHO CARES ABOUT FOUR PAGES! KEEP IT GOING!

That threads one of my babies!


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## Lantarion

> *Originally posted by Arvedui*
> Why can't we discuss the works of JRR Tolkien in the section made for those discussions?


The GoT discusses very general (and still important and interesting) topics in Tolkien's works, often spanning across many or all the published works; so trying to categorize such a discussion into one of the Book Fora would be ifficult, if not impossible. But I think that if somebody in the GoT has a bright idea for an interesting topic which pertains to only one of the Books, they should post it in the appropriate book section and not in GoT. But GoT is sort of the scholarly Tolkien Hub, at least for me, and it would be a shame (and it would be unnecessary) for it to go. 

Woah careful Elgee, your teetering off-topic..  
But as has been discussed, a lot of people (well, at least most of the Mods from what I understand) want the 'new S&B'* to be in two parts; but some don't. That's why it's a discussion. 

*We really have to figure out a better name for it.. I was thinking 'Flotsam and Jetsam', but I dunno..


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## Rhiannon

I rather like Stuff & Bother... 'Flotsam and Jetsam' would be good (unfortunately because of a deep childhood association the first thing it makes me think of is _The Little Mermaid_). Readerville.com has 'Chattering in the Stacks' and 'Greetings & Chatter'.


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## HLGStrider

> Woah careful Elgee, your teetering off-topic..



Two-thirds of my post was on topic. That's as good as it gets.

Stuff and Bother 
and
Confusticate and Bebother?

How does that sound?


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## Lúthien Séregon

I think it might be a good idea if the Guild of Artists was moved to the Inns section in place of The Golden Perch and The Forsaken Inn, next to the Prancing Pony...art and poetry are kind of in similar categories. What does everyone else think?


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## Aulë

I think that the Guild of Artists will be put in the Prancing Pony.


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## Eledhwen

> _Originally posted by Aulë _
> *I think that the Guild of Artists will be put in the Prancing Pony. *


There should be a place for Tolkien-inspired art in the Tolkien-Related bit (though I have noticed that many so-called Tolkien art on the net could be of any medieval place or person and may have been relabelled).


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## Firawyn

i doubt that anyone really wants to know what i think but personally, i think that alot, and i mean ALOT of meber joined when PJ released the movies and i bet that half of then haven't read the books to this day. i think that the OT discussions really got out of hand and 'chatty' when ppl who join casue of the movies got board of movie talk. i don't know how to fix that. what's done is done. alot of members are not really into tolkien, they're into jackson. (not to mention OB and EW.) *groan*


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