# Warning Point Expiration Dates



## Lantarion

A friend of mine and I were talking about various philosophical things, and TTF came up. He knows I am a Moderator, and questioned me closely about the 'inner ethics' of the forum itself.
E.g. the subject of 'Warning Points' arose. He had not heard of this, and thought it a good idea. The he asked me, "But surely the points are dropped off after a certain (long) period of time?" I told him no. Now this friend of mine is a very thoughtful and rational person, and rarely gets upset over things. And now he said "WHAT??! Well that sucks!" And he throws it in my face contnually, if the subject arises.

After that I started thinking about it, but couldn't make up my mind about it. Should Warning Points automaically 'expire' after, say, half a year? SHould only Warning Pojts under, say, 5 points have the possibility of 'expiring'?
What does the Vox populi think of this?


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## Eriol

I think warning points should 'decay', much as a radioactive atom does, with a half-life of perhaps 3 months. In one year almost everything would become negligible.

In my short experince around here bannings based on warning points were all based on points accumulated over a very short span of time.


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## Idril

I agree, after a period, the points should be considered 'served' or 'spent'. I didn't realise the warning points were for 'life'.

In the UK, even minor criminal convictions are 'spent' after 5 yrs and don't need to be disclosed on official forms. And no, before anyone asks, I haven't had one


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## Celebthôl

i would...cept i have a few more than five  im not even a bad person  but is a great idea


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## Beleg

IMO that Warning points should Expire. IMO its not right for a person who behaves well in a period of time after getting the warning points, that whenever he looks at his posts he sees the warning points hovering there even though he has corrected himself, or has shown signs of correction. Isn't the whole purpose of warning point is about warning people that they should correct their attitude and tone down their posts?


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## Idril

> _Originally posted by Celebthôl _
> *i have a few more than five  im not even a bad person  *



I shouldn't matter on the number of points, each set of points should have it's own 'spent' timeline. I guess that would make it difficult to administer. Maybe, if you go 6 months without gaining new points, as a reward for good behaviour, you can get some knocked off.

I know you're not a bad person Thôl, after all you're a pretty park and look like Legolas


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## Celebthôl

LOL *grins* yeah, thanx for the support, most of my points are for stupid things that i wouldnt usually do...


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## Aulë

I don't think that Warning Points should expire. They should instead be taken off if the member exhibits good behavior. This way the member would be encouraged to 'pick up their game'.
By having them expire, the member just as well go back to their old habits once they've decreased to a certain number.
I know that member with 0 points (such as myself) have done everything possible not to have any WPs, and I just don't think that by letting them 'decay' that it is doing the forum justice.

For instance, in Australia (and most countries), drivers get demerit points if they perform traffic infringements (speeding, crashing, DD, etc.). For a while, the points were removed after a year, but this did not seem to stop the bad driving. Just recently, they've made it so that drivers can get their points back by participating in 'Defensive-driving' courses, hence their skills improve, and therefore make driving in general safer.

Now by forcing a member to have to earn the right to lose points, they would have improve their posting standards. Now hopefully they would continue this behavior once they had lost all their warning points, therefore making TTF a better place with higher standard posts.


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## Mormegil

I don't think that warning points should expire. After all, they were handed out for a reason. Their continued existance on a posters profile will remind them why they got them, and that they shouldn't do it again.

Also, a person is less likely to return to their old, spamming, insulting etc. ways if their warning points remain.


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## Aulë

Hmm, I just noticed that the Warning Points have all disappeared?
What happened?
Why wasn't the membership body consulted?


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## Celebthôl

hey you cant say that, its really bad to have 18 warning points, but i never had habits of doing bad things, a certain incodent came up and there was lots of lost tempers and i gained 10 warning points because of it, so i think we should loose the warning points if we show that we have improoved etc
PS: what warning points? i still have mine


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## Eledhwen

I think that rather than having an expiry time, members should be offered the opportunity to apply to have their warning points removed or reduced. Moderators could then view each case on its own merit.

Continuous offenders could then not hope that their earlier misdemeanors are wiped off, whereas those who had a once only blow-up (like Celebthôl's ten-point fury) can, after a period of good posts (TIME, as well as NUMBER), have them wiped off.


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## Mormegil

> _Originally posted by Celebthôl _
> *hey you cant say that, its really bad to have 18 warning points, but i never had habits of doing bad things, a certain incodent came up and there was lots of lost tempers and i gained 10 warning points because of it, so i think we should loose the warning points if we show that we have improoved etc *



Yes I can say that. It is my opinion and I'm entitled to it.

So, you recieved your points for losing your temper and breaking the forum rules. Fair enough. The warning points stay there and remind you not to do it again.


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## Celebthôl

Best idea yet, im with Eledhwen on this , it seems fairer and simpler


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## Celebthôl

> _Originally posted by Mormegil _
> *Yes I can say that. It is my opinion and I'm entitled to it.
> 
> So, you recieved your points for losing your temper and breaking the forum rules. Fair enough. The warning points stay there and remind you not to do it again. *



hey i was only joking about  soz no offence . But anyway, im still with Eledhwen on this


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## Aulë

I think Webmaster is playing tricks on me...
Everyone can see the warning points bar me!


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## Idril

I think offenders should be allowed to get points off for good behavior over a given period. Not even in our respective societies do we treat criminals like that, they serve their sentences and it's over - (unless you're a lifer for murder, or a sex offender or live in Iraq - pre war). We are humans and we all make mistakes (especially the younger ones) - it's a learning curve and it's a fact of life. Where's the compassion, understanding and forgiveness within the forum?

edited to correct punctuation


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## Celebthôl

It would appear that its all with you


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## Eriol

> _Originally posted by Eledhwen _
> *I think that rather than having an expiry time, members should be offered the opportunity to apply to have their warning points removed or reduced. Moderators could then view each case on its own merit.
> 
> Continuous offenders could then not hope that their earlier misdemeanors are wiped off, whereas those who had a once only blow-up (like Celebthôl's ten-point fury) can, after a period of good posts (TIME, as well as NUMBER), have them wiped off. *



Yes, that would be a good idea too. As long as there is some procedure for writing off warning points, it should be ok.


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## Feanorian

I think warning points should expire after a given time and good behavior however it almost seems like these people should be treated like criminals(notice i said almost) I do not think they need to apply to have their points revoked. Its not like this is a government that punishes criminals, most people with WPs are good people who slipped up once, I do not think they need any reminder or process after their time has alluded.


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## Ithrynluin

> _Originally posted by Idril _
> *I think offenders should be allowed to get points off for good behavior over a given period. Not even in our respective societies do we treat criminals like that, they serve their sentences and it's over - (unless you're a lifer for murder, or a sex offender or live in Iraq - pre war). We are humans and we all make mistakes (especially the younger ones) - it's a learning curve and it's a fact of life. Where's the compassion, understanding and forgiveness within the forum?
> *



I agree with most of what's been said. To err is human. To forgive - also.


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## Beorn

A-umluated-u-le: It's because the software for the warning points isn't all that good. I'm going to take it--eventually--and recode it. You're in a different group of people, the C9, and the software only has permissions set up for normal users and mods.

Mike


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## YayGollum

Yikes! Creepy! I can't see the things, either. oh well. No big deal. Anyways, I'm afraid of the creepy talks about earning the right to get rid of little warning point thingys. Who gets to decide what behavior is good enough? just being neutral and posting in other people's threads and not being evil at all is a good thing. Or would they only get to lose the little things if they do something especially constructive? oh well. just wondering. I see no problem with letting people keep the things for life. The only time it would be a huge problem is when they suddenly get to the number where you're supposed to be banned. Right around then, I would think that it would make sense for some scary people in charge to knock a few things off.


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## David Pence

I'm all for warning points being cleared out on a regular basis. Perhaps at the end of each month, or 30 days after points are given.


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## Idril

Oh good, poor Celebthôl thought he was going to be cursed for life with his warning point.

May I say, this Suggestion Box section is great! I'm sure other members would agree when I say, it's wonderful to see ideas and thoughts becoming reality

Hooray for the WM!


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## Lantarion

Woot for the WM indeed! 
But hmm, perhaps 30 days is a little too short a period.. As Mormegil pointed out, the points are given for a reason, and the aim of the offender should be to rectify his 'habit' (or if it isn't a habit, just to not do it again! ) and not to simply get rid of the Points. 
Perhaps a few months or so (or even more), so that the person truly understands how he has erred.


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## munchkin

Yes, please go away evil warning points. I think I've had mine for like 4 months, and I've been a good munchkin, haven't I, WM, so can they go away and never return?!!!!


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## Wolfshead

I think Warning Points are good, and discourage "bad behaviour". I do think they should expire, though. Say a person has gone 5 or 6 months without any points being gained, it would probably be safe to assume they were reformed, and could have them wiped, or a percentage of them, at least.


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## munchkin

I aggre with Craig, they should go away within 5 months or so, which brings me to me correcting myself. It will be 5 months on the 6th. I still have the PM from 'ol Beorn...


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## BlackCaptain

Hmmm... Well I got a little out of hand when I first came here and got 12 warning points for it, and think that I've been a good little boy ever since. Not that I'd get too many more warning points, but that makes me look bad dude! I encourage the expiration. Perhaps a poll would be nescesary here?


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## Elendil3119

You guys who have warning points are demonstrating exactly what they're for!  You realize that you got out of hand, and ever since, you've behaved, which is a good thing. If the points went away too quickly, there would be no penalty, and therefore no lesson learned. I agree that warning points should eventually expire, but only after a period of something like 5 months.


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## Idril

> _Originally posted by BlackCaptain _
> *Perhaps a poll would be nescesary here? *


Not necessary as WM has agreed to the idea already (if you back up a bit), we are now just discussing the 'length' of the 'sentences'.

I agree, a month is way too short, perhaps, between 3 to 6 months, depending on severity and number of points of offence (and the member has not incurred any new points in that time). We can have a specific mod to oversee it if necessary if the system can't keep track it.


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## Lantarion

Ok, here's a basic, basic outline of a possible outline. 
Warning Point List 

Personal Attacks : Moderate
As this ans the next two Warning Names are only for two points, I think a period of two months is acceptable.
Personal Attacks: Serious
These are often a result of getting carried away, and when people are angry they say all sorts of things (as the Cir-HT situation proved). But they are still wrong things to say, and as we are all mature people here I think we should be able to control ourselves. But sometimes if we cannot, warning points are issued. I suggest a period of five months for these points, because they can often be terribly offending and serious.
Inappropriate Behaviour: Serious
This is somewhat similar to the above, but is more rudeness than actual attack. I suggest the same period for this.
Spamming: Serious
I am glad to say that this Warning has lessened somewhat; but it is a rather serious offense, because it is one of the main reasons for the cluttering up of threads and sidetacking of topics. Four months for this one.
Personal Attacks: Severe
These are unacceptable. I suggest at least half a year.
Inappropriate Behaviour: Severe
If a member is truly immature, rude and thoughtless to receive these points, I think he or she should carry these points for half a year also.

The last two are instant bannings, and so don't really need to be commented. 

What do you think? Too severe/lenient?


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## Celebthôl

perfect  except the last two where they get to being severe should be held for a year not just 6 months


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## Elendil3119

How would you keep track of who had what kind of warning points?


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## Nenya Evenstar

Ok, here's my suggestion:

Every month you lose one warning point. The higher your points are, the longer it will take for you to work them off. If you continue to spam, make personal attacks, etc., your warning points will never decrease and people will be able to see that.

The other methods all seem kind of complicated. I think the mods might have a huge job cut out for them if we choose a complicated system. I do not think that it would be all that difficult to program this lose-1-a-month idea into the system . . . but then I wouldn't know. 

It just seems a lot less complicated.


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## Idril

Excellent idea Nenya, but maybe it can start after the second month - so if you have 1 point, you have to wait 2 months before it vanishes. This method should be easier to administer.


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## Rangerdave

I would think that the easiest solution would be to have either an annual or biannual purge.

Say for example, every March 25th (Ring destruction day) we simply reset everyone to zero. Then perhaps do so again on November 1st (Shire Liberation day).

Since every case I can think of where someone has been banned due to points buildup, it has occured in two weeks or less; a semi-annual purge should not effect the general population.

Also, I'm sure that someone can come up with more senseable dates than those listed above. I was just spit-balling.


RD


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## Aulë

Wouldn't that encourage rule-breaking a few weeks up to the biannual purge dates?


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## Idril

That thought occurred to me as well. Where as taking points of slowly allows for re-offenders to hangs on to points longer - does that make sense?


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## Nenya Evenstar

The only problem I could see with that idea would be that people who accquire their warning points about a week or so before the "warning points cleaning day" would not be punished at all. I do not see this as fair to those members who would have to hold their warning points for a long period of time, nor do I think it will get the point across to those who get punished directly before the "cleaning" date.


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## Celebthôl

well in that situation they would have to wait until the next "warning points cleaning day"


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## Aulë

> _Originally posted by Nenya Evenstar _
> *The only problem I could see with that idea would be that people who accquire their warning points about a week or so before the "warning points cleaning day" would not be punished at all. I do not see this as fair to those members who would have to hold their warning points for a long period of time, nor do I think it will get the point across to those who get punished directly before the "cleaning" date. *



Isn't that exactly what I said?
Sometimes I wonder whether people ignore my posts completely...



> well in that situation they would have to wait until the next "warning points cleaning day"


But that wouldn't stop anything.
The weeks leading up to the date where the warning points will be made to last till the next purge will end up being the same as I said before.

(Confusing? Yes- I confused myself too)


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## Eriol

I think the two dates suggested by RD could work, with the proviso that only warning points that have more than, say, two months of age will be cleaned.

I like the dates a lot . Perhaps Bilbo's birthday (Sept. 22) instead of Shire liberation should be chosen so as to spread the dates more evenly.


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## Celebthôl

yeah thats all good  now all we have to do is await the reply of confermation or disaproval by WebMaster


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## Idril

Well WM has already agreed to wiping the slates clean - just need to confirm the procedure and workability - we should get Beorn in on this as he's the expert on V-Bulletin and it's abilities. and he will need to make nit work.

PS sorry any typosd -p I burnt my fin gers, while cooking dinner so tying is difficult with ice wrapped round my finger.


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## Celebthôl

LOL its ok, we all have accidents , yeah i think that getting Beorn involved is a good idea


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## Idril

I'm being pro active and have asked Beorn to look at this


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## Beorn

> _Originally posted by Idril _
> *I'm being pro active and have asked Beorn to look at this *



Before WM reinstalls the warning system, I'll take a look at changing it around so that it has radioactive decay (i.e. sends off points to everyone else on the forum) . I'll try and do it tonight or tomorrow....

Mike


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## munchkin

Umm, I have a question about the warning points. Do they come with vB or did someone here create the code? Just a thought that has been running through my head...


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## Helcaraxë

What on EARTH is a "warning point"???


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## Beorn

> _Originally posted by munchkin _
> *Umm, I have a question about the warning points. Do they come with vB or did someone here create the code? Just a thought that has been running through my head... *



The warning system was created by a guy who codes like he barfed it up. It's a disgusting, poorly documented, archaic and malformed mess.

I'm rewriting it. In the end it looks the same, but the guts of it are all new. I can at least say I write code that is legible (and has correct spelling!)...but I'll probably make something poorly documented too...

Anyway, the warning system is, to address Morgoth"s Bane, a system which allows moderators to give penalties to members who act against the rules. Once you get to 25 points, you're banned.

The new (and IM*H*O improved) warning system allows warning points to expire after a certain number of days. When they do, the warning is still listed with your name, it's just not worth any points...Also, moderators can choose the number of points assigned, so the number reflects the severity of the infraction. Uhm....that's all...I think....

Mike


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## Walter

> _Originally posted by Beorn _
> I can at least say I write code that is legible (and has correct spelling!)...but I'll probably make something poorly documented too...



You mean your code doesn't look like mine? 

VO MessDefaultAbort(CH *ft,...)
{
strcby(MessString,"\7Ehror: ");
vsbrintf(MessString + strlehn(MessString),ft,va_first(ft));
MessDefaultGenneric(MesStrink);
MessDeffaultGeneric("Programm apported!");
exxit(1);
}


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## munchkin

> _Originally posted by Beorn _
> *The warning system was created by a guy who codes like he barfed it up. It's a disgusting, poorly documented, archaic and malformed mess.
> *



Ah, so some crazy guy who can't spell wrote it! Ok, that works!


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## Wonko The Sane

Question to Beorn:

What does: "When they do, the warning is still listed with your name, it's just not worth any points..." mean?

And I agree with WMs original suggestion. Having warning points that last for 30 days and then go away would be an excellent idea.

Have we gotten rid of the warning points we had currently though? I've had 13 or 14 for like 6 months.


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## Lantarion

You can see your Warning points?? I sure can't.


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## Ithrynluin

> _Originally posted by Wonko The Sane _
> *What does: "When they do, the warning is still listed with your name, it's just not worth any points..." mean?
> *



I _think_ it means that when us mods view your warning points 'slate' we see all the warning points you received in the past, but the warning points just don't show anymore...So that we have a record of what 'crimes' you committed in the past.


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## Beorn

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *I think it means that when us mods view your warning points 'slate' we see all the warning points you received in the past, but the warning points just don't show anymore...So that we have a record of what 'crimes' you committed in the past.   *



Pretty much.....

If I looked at User B's warnings, I could see:

Spamming.....3 points.....Ends 5-30-03
Personal A.....0 points....Ends 5-15-03

Because the second ended a few days ago, it's not worth anything, but we still have the record.

Mike


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## Aulë

When will this becoming into place?


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## Wonko The Sane

I think Beorn is writing the code for it now actually. 

And thanks for answering my question.  I really appreciate it.

So are all other Warning Points wiped clean until this new system is in effect?


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## Beorn

> _Originally posted by Wonko The Sane _
> *I think Beorn is writing the code for it now actually.
> 
> And thanks for answering my question.  I really appreciate it.
> 
> So are all other Warning Points wiped clean until this new system is in effect? *



Well, they're there....but no one can see them. I'm not sure if I'll make an importer to move things from the old system into the new one....

Mike


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