# Immortality



## siptfire7 (Jan 26, 2003)

If the Elves are supposed to be immortal and never grow old, then how did they become the age they are? Were the Elves born that age? If any of them have a baby, does it stay a baby forever?


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## Niniel (Jan 27, 2003)

They are born as normal babies, and they take a few hundred years to get mature. I think they do get older, but very slowly, because they do get older (like Elrond looks older than Legolas and Círdan looks older than Elrond).
BTW doesn't this thread belong somewhere else? like in the Hall of Fire or something?


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## Lasgalen (Jan 28, 2003)

Elves start as babies. One of Earendil's first memories was the Elessar his mother wore "as she sang above his cradle". My guess it that growing up is different than growing old.

-Lasgalen


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## Ithrynluin (Jan 28, 2003)

The Elves are immortal, and they do not die, _unless one grows weary of ten thousand centuries_ (a quote from the Silmarillion I think, but I'm not sure).
Their spirits are also bound to Arda (like those of the Valar and Maiar) and to remain there for ever. Unlike Men, their spirits do not leave the Circles of the World.


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## Orodreth (Jan 29, 2003)

On the topic of old elves, how old is Círdan? Wasn't he one of the very first elves?


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## Ithrynluin (Jan 29, 2003)

Círdan is about 10000 years old I think. It's not very likely that he was one of those who awoke by Cuivienen, as it is said in one of the HOME books that 72 COUPLES awoke there, and Cirdan doesn't seem to have a spouse. He is probably from the second generation.


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## Maeglin (Jan 29, 2003)

And Cirdan even looks old too, most of the Elves don't look old, but it says in the last few pages of LotR, when they go to the Grey Havens, that Cirdan the Shipwright was there, and he had a great gray beard. Or at least it was something like that.


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## Lasgalen (Jan 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Glorfindel1187 _
> *And Cirdan even looks old too, most of the Elves don't look old, but it says in the last few pages of LotR, when they go to the Grey Havens, that Cirdan the Shipwright was there, and he had a great gray beard. Or at least it was something like that. *



If Elves do not suffer the effects of aging, than why does Cirdan look old?

-Lasgalen


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## Ithrynluin (Jan 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by lasgalen _
> *If Elves do not suffer the effects of aging, than why does Cirdan look old?
> 
> -Lasgalen *



They do "suffer" them, only very very slowly. And their age is mostly reflected in their eyes.


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## Maeglin (Jan 30, 2003)

Not only that, but he gave his ring, which preserves things and prevents them from decay and also prevents him from growing weary of Middle-Earth, to Gandalf, so he was no longer preserved as well as Elrond and Galadriel and therefore he looked very old.


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Glorfindel1187 _
> *Not only that, but he gave his ring, which preserves things and prevents them from decay and also prevents him from growing weary of Middle-Earth, to Gandalf, so he was no longer preserved as well as Elrond and Galadriel and therefore he looked very old. *



The Three Rings of the Elves target the environment, not the individual. Why would they have need of preserving their bodies, if they are immortal already? The Elves DO change throught the course of time, but slowly, even to such an extent, that we can neglect these changes.

This may be of interest to you: Invisibility and the Ring


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## L.Greenleaf (Feb 1, 2003)

Very interesting converstion about the elves. I was wondering who is Círdan?


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## BlackCaptain (Feb 1, 2003)

Cirdain is a very old elf who's name means "Shipwright".
He is the master of the boats that go from Middle Earth to Aman, or the Undying lands


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## Eledhwen (Feb 1, 2003)

*From RETURN OF THE KING The Grey Havens*

'As they came to the gates Círdan the Shipwright came forth to greet them. Very tall he was, and his beard was long, and he was grey and old, save that his eyes were keen as stars'

I seem to remember Tolkien said in a letter that Elves had to be very old indeed before their beards started to grow, but maybe someone can be more specific.


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## L.Greenleaf (Feb 1, 2003)

Thanks for clearing up the Cirdan thing.


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## Mithlond (Feb 1, 2003)

Elves have to pass into their third cycle of life before a beard will grow. Tolkien mentioned this in his Letters.


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## Lantarion (Feb 4, 2003)

"...unless one grow weary of ten thousand centuries."
It's said in the Silmarillion somewhere.


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 4, 2003)

It is also said in one of the previous posts, Lanty. Not reading the whole thread are you?


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## Inderjit S (Feb 16, 2003)

Elves usually reach full maturity between 50-100. 

Elves can also die of grief. Cirdan was told by the Valar to stay, as he had a 'higher purpose' (Though in the Silmarillion it is Osse who convinces him.) He is 10,00 years old plus- the oldest known Elf in M-E.


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## ElvishHellion (Feb 27, 2003)

so Elves can dieoftwothings :being killed and of a broken hearts


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## Eledhwen (Feb 28, 2003)

I recently listened to a radio interview with JRRT on village.vossnet.co.uk, and he said Elves weren't immortal, but they have lifespans so long that they could survive to the end of the world. Cirdan is our only clue as to what age Elves start to look old; Galadriel and Elrond may have stayed younger because of their rings; but Cirdan too was an Elven ring bearer for a time. Also, it would depend on which theory Tolkien used as to the age of the world and how much longer it would last. You work it out - my mind's boggled.


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## Elfhelm25 (Mar 3, 2003)

Hmmmm...
I always assumed Cirdan looked so aged because he was still tied to ME, that if he had gone to Valinor or wherever he would have been better preserved. It seemed like elves began to grow weary of ME and that was a sign that their time was up on ME and they were supposed to leave ...maybe being tied to ME caused Cirdan to age even faster...
Think about it . If LOTR time was many many years ago...probably thousands or even tens of thousands ( the continents had changed) ...at present time, all elves would by these standards be ....thousands of years old ...would they look incredibly aged, like millions of Gandalfs....
And if they can last till the end of the world, then they can be a billion years old ..imagine THOSE wrinkles...
Its a mind boggling thought..


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## Eledhwen (Mar 4, 2003)

Also, Cirdan had borne much grief (the first kinslaying, Morgoth wars, etc). Enough to turn any Elf grey.


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## Lasgalen (Mar 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mithlond _
> *Elves have to pass into their third cycle of life before a beard will grow. Tolkien mentioned this in his Letters. *


How long is a "cycle of life"? 

-Lasgalen


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