# How old is Arwen?



## yaebedon

I've read all the LOTR book, so I guess I must of totally forgotten that part.

When Arwen gives up her immortality for her love, when is that? which book? What chapter?

Sorry for spelling.


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## JanitorofAngmar

*Yeah*

I don't get that. How does she give up her immortality? Without having read anything other than the Hobbit, and LOTR how does that work? I mean is just cause she is having sex with a man? How does that take her immortalness away. Why can she sleep with an elf and not a man? Or is it the marriage vow? Huh?

Aren't there half-elven? Why does that work but she can't shack up with Aragorn til he dies?

Couldn't she sign a pre-nup? "I get to stay immortal when you croak"?

JoA


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## Elendil

Arwen Undomiel has only minor roles in the main story. She mainly stands in the back looking like a vision of ideal beauty. In the appendix in volume 3 of LOTR, Arwen marries Aragorn and becomes his queen. I would imagine that Arwen is mostly elf. She is a descendent of Luthien Tinuviel who gave up immortality to die with her human lover Beren (the One-handed). Arwen and her father are therefore partly human, as Beren (a man) was also their forefather. Arwen, as an elf, would have to do the same as Luthien, or else she will be parted from Aragorn till the end of the world.


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## Greymantle

Arwen and Luthien are totally separate cases! Luthien bargained with the Valar, and gave up her immortality to have Beren returned to her. Arwen, as the daughter of Elrond, was considered half-Elven in the eyes of the Valar, and so was presented with the same choice as Elrond and Elros. She chose the race of Man to be with Aragorn, because in doing so she forsook the Elves who by this time were all going over the sea. One of the hardest, most poignant choices I can think of from LotR...this is why I think Arwen is such a strong chracter, and why I get so mad at PJ for messing her up.


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## ReadWryt

From The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien Yr 2000 edition in a draft of a letter to Peter Hastings #153:



> Elrond chose to be amoungst the Elves. His children-with the renewed Elvish strain, since their mother was Celebrian dtr. of Galadriel-have to make their choices. Arwen is not a 're-incarnation' of Luthien (that in the view of this mythical history would be impossible, since Luthien has died like a mortal and left the world of time) but a descendent very like her in looks, character and fate. When she weds Aragorn (whose love story elsewhere recounted is not here central and only occasionally referred to) she 'makes the choice of Luthien', so the grief from her parting from Elrond is specially poignant.


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## Elendil

Greymantle,

The point I was making was that Arwen gave up immortality like Tinuviel, I wasn't being specific on the method. As you know, Luthien went to Mandos and then chose to return with Beren to middle-earth where they lived (sort of) happily ever after. They had kids at least.

As the quote from ReadWryt shows, Arwen is one of the most similar characters to Luthien both because of her beauty and her fate.

I don't believe my earlier post had any essential errors. Arwen didn't want to be parted from Aragorn and did not travel to the undying West.


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## Tar-Steve

Arwen was given the same choice that the half-elven and all their descendants were given and she chose mortality. 

Although I've always found this to be an inconsistency. The descendants of Elrond were given the same choice as he, the descendants of Elros were stuck with his decision.

BTW Elendil,

Your post seemed very clear and accurate to me and I didn't read it as equating the situations of Luthien and Arwen.


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## Gilraen

getting back to yaebedon...arwen didn't lose her immortality, she relinquished her place on the ships leaving from the grey havens for the west. that was her gift to frodo. (knowledgable ones, correct me if i'm wrong!) in the appendix to trotk, when aragorn makes the choice to die, he gives arwen the choice


> to repent and go to the havens and bear away into the west the memory of our days together...or else to abide the doom of men



to which arwen repled


> that choice is long over. there is now no ship that would bear me hence, and i must indeed abide the doom of men, whether i will or nil



the halfelven had the choice of living an immortal life in the uttermost west, or of staying in ea adn living as men.


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## Greymantle

Certainly Arwen lost her immortality! "Living as Men" means "dying as Men" as well. As one of the Peredhel (or -dhil?) she chose the race of Men as her own, and thereby forsook immortality and embraced Iluvatar's Gift. The very last thing in M-E chronology that Tolkien tells us (I think!) is this:
"There at last when the mallorn-leaves were falling, but spring had not yet come, she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after, and elanor and niphredil bloom no more east of the Sea." -LotR, Appendix A, p. 1038


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## Cian

> _Originally posted by Greymantle _
> As one of the Peredhel (or -dhil?) ...



Both Grey, but for plural _Peredhil_


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## Eowyn's Sister

As every woman in every mythical story from Adam and Eve in the Garden to Beauty and the Beast and The Little Mermaid, throughout history, women have given up brains, beauty, heritage, their voices, a life free of pain and terror, their freedom and all possibility of independence for what Mother, Magazines and the Movies says is the only thing worth having: A Husband ... Arwen too sits home on her butt with her sewing, waiting for A Husband to come and marry her and save her from the ignominity of having to think and act for herself. Immortality pales in the face of having to be immortal and a spinster.

Doubtless in the time-honoured fashion of all men, Aragorn eventually threw away his kingdom and his wife and kids and all of Middle Earth for a roll in the hay with a Trophy elf half his age.


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## Greymantle

Is anyone else offended by this...? I am. I think this is showing strong disrespect for Tolkien and his characters.

But welcome, Eowyn's Sister... I won't hold a simple difference of opinion against you! And unlike most people 'round here, I'm not a flaming anti-feminist. *Glares at collective Forum*


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## Grond

Arwen's Sister, welcome to the forum and I guess you must be Arwen's older, protective sister since she needs you to come to defend the way she chose to live her life (or the way JRRT chose her to live her life). 

Ironically, throughout history up until the early to mid 20th Century, that is exactly what a Woman's role was. To be the home maker and family keeper. To do all the things necessary and essential to keep a strong home and family together. The husband was the bread winner and the more "publically visible" partner from a business and external standpoint.

In the mid to latter part of the 20th Century. women have taken a more equal and vital role in bread winning to the detriment of the family as a whole. I know, as I was married to a working woman for 25 years before my marriage imploded. This is not a condemnation of the situation as in today's world, without two bread winners, material quality of life is adversely effected.

It is a shame that woman have not been more visible and dominant in ancient and modern literature.... but now you can always watch Xena, or Buffy or the New Line Cinema Production of The Lord of the Rings with Arwen Evenstar, Elf-princess warrior, and see how woman should have been behaving and treated in literature over the ages.

By the way, Arwen's Sister, can you name in history, not literature, where a woman took a leading, active, fighting role in any military action. I can think of one... Joan of Arc. Got any others?

But, what do I know.... I'm just a dumb hammer!


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## Halasían

> Doubtless in the time-honoured fashion of all men, Aragorn eventually threw away his kingdom and his wife and kids and all of Middle Earth for a roll in the hay with a Trophy elf half his age.


 No, he would send Faramir off to a state formal function and would tell Arwen he was going fly-fishing on the Anduin, and she was barefoot and pregnant with all those daughters, and finally a son, and while Aragorn was fishing all day. Being tired and the sun setting, he would go to Ithilien and see Éowyn and her tan haired kids.. except the next one had dark hair....


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## Elfhelm25

I was always confused on how exactly an elf would lose their immortality . 
Particularly Arwen . 
It says she couldn't sail on a ship across the sea to Valinor or wjerever , right ? The thing is , didn't Legolas stick around middle earth until AFTER Aragorn died ? Why couldnt she just bum a ride on his little ship and sail off too ? When exactly did all the elves leave Middle Earth ? ( Thranduil's kingdom , etc.) Surely SOMEONE could have come along and given her a lift . Even if not , why couldnt she make her own ship and sail ? It doesnt make sense , unless maybe she WANTED to die after her hubby was gone . Still , they dont end up in the same place anyways , so what would be the point ? If anyone could clear this up Id appreciate it


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## Tar-Elenion

Arwen was not an Elf, and did not "lose" her 'immortality'. She was allowed the grace of whether to choose 'immortality' or 'mortality'. She chose 'mortality'. She could not simply 'bum a ride' because she was 'mortal' and the Undying Lands were not for 'mortals' (unless granted special dispensation) and even 'mortals' died therein.


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## Confusticated

> Still , they dont end up in the same place anyways , so what would be the point ?


Do you mean after death? It isn't known (as far as I know) what happens to the spirits of men after they die, but it is thought that Elves and men do not go the same place after death. I think that there is a good chance that Aragorn and Arwen did go to the same place after they died.

This is said of Arwen in tLotR, Chapter Many Partings...


> None saw her last meeting with Elrond her father, for they went up into the hills and there spoke long together, and bitter was their parting that should endure beyond the ends of the world.


She clearly wont be seeing her father again as long as the world lasts. If they meet after that, it is not known. If she decided to be among the elves she would certainly be parted from Aragorn, probably forever, in her choice to be mortal they will probably be together forever.


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## Thorondor_

Elfhelm25 said:


> I was always confused on how exactly an elf would lose their immortality .
> Particularly Arwen .
> It says she couldn't sail on a ship across the sea to Valinor or wjerever , right ? The thing is , didn't Legolas stick around middle earth until AFTER Aragorn died ? Why couldnt she just bum a ride on his little ship and sail off too ? When exactly did all the elves leave Middle Earth ? ( Thranduil's kingdom , etc.) Surely SOMEONE could have come along and given her a lift . Even if not , why couldnt she make her own ship and sail ?


From the same letter 153


> The view is that the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's fate they will share.


She lost her immortality by mere choice, but a choice which is irrevocable, that is why she says "that choice is long over".


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