# Think i've found a major loophole!



## childoferu (Jul 31, 2009)

Ok...*ahem*...if elves never "die" and are only reincarnated back in Valinor, why couldn't they have just exploited that gift and keep sending elven warriors back to ME to conquer the enemy?!?!


Actually, I don't take this theory _that_ seriously, but I capitulized the title so I could get some responses, this is really interesting me


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## Gothmog (Aug 2, 2009)

Ok, one thing to remember is that all the Elves that wanted to go and conquer Melkor without the help of the Valar had already gone to M-e so there would be none left in Aman to "Send more back" as they became available 

Now on to what happened to the Elves who died in battle. When any Elf died they were called to the Halls of Mandos, they could if they wished refuse this call and remain dis-embodied spirits wandering Arda. Those who answered the call would have to remain in Mandos for a period of time that varied according to how soon they were ready in themselves to return to their bodies and how long the Valar considered they should wait there because of the deeds they had done.

Due to what happened just before and during the war against Melkor, it is likely that few, if any, of the Elves that died at that time were considered ready by the Valar to be re-bodied before the end of the war and available to return to M-e even if they had the means to cross the sea through the barriers set up by the Valar to protect Aman.


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## Withywindle (Aug 3, 2009)

I agree with Gothmog that none of the Eldar killed in the FA would have been permitted to return in time for the war against Morgoth. As far as returning later goes, generally the original motivation the Noldor had to return to ME would have disappeared:

Pride in thinking themselves strong enough to challenge Morgoth: if they had been killed then they would have been humbled, realising they weren't so tough after all, and the Noldor as a whole had failed, relying eventually on the Valar to fight the battle for them.

Freedom to carve out realms for themselves in the empty lands of ME: those lands were no longer empty, being filled everywhere by Men. There was possibly also a disappointment in having found ME to be rather dreary and wearying - hence the making of the Three Rings to try to create a more "Undying" atmosphere in ME. Having been given an honourable ticket home to Valinor, few really wanted to endure ME again.

The mass-hysteria of the events follwing the stealing of the silmarils, and the personal magnetism of Feanor had led most of the Exiles to ME; when those conditions were no longer present, there was no general inclination to go to ME at all.

Fear of death? Just because they were immortal, doesn´t mean that the act of dying itself, and the lonely sojourn in Mandos was an expereince anyone would want to repeat in a hurry!

Incidentally, I know that there are conflicting theories on whether Glorfindel of Rivendell was the same as the Glorfindel of Gondolin who had returned from death to ME. As far as I know there is no consensus on this. I personally don´t like the idea, and prefer to think that they are just namesakes.


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## childoferu (Aug 3, 2009)

Well, at least I'm glad I _am_ wrong, that would be one nasty loopy indeed, but in response to Withywindle, I'm inclined to believe both Glorfindels _are_ the same person, why do you disagree


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## Withywindle (Aug 4, 2009)

Well, I'm sure the major Tolkien scholars can throw a weight of quotes at me to support the idea that the two Glofindels were the same, indeed I've read them at some time in other threads. I'm strictly a Hobbit-LotR-Silmarillion man myself ans so I just go on the impression formed from those texts. I find the idea of a reincarnted Glorfindel odd, inconsistent and strangely unsettling. I find it much morre likely that Tolkien originally used the name of Glorfindel for the LotR character drawing at random on his own private scribblings of the FA which at that time he didn't plan ever to publish.


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## Elthir (Aug 5, 2009)

Well, Tolkien himself decided that there was only one Glorfindel, and wrote two texts on the subject.



> I find it much morre likely that Tolkien originally used the name of Glorfindel for the LotR character drawing at random on his own private scribblings of the FA which at that time he didn't plan ever to publish.


 
JRRT did lift the name somewhat randomly from his (then) private tales; but also, he did want _The Silmarillion_ published in the late 1930s, and again in tandem with _The Lord of the Rings_ in the 1950s_ --_ at this point he was even on the verge of switching publishers to do so.

In drafts for _The Lord of the Rings_ Tolkien noted that Glorfindel should tell of his ancestry in Gondolin; it's a brief enough note, but we can see that JRRT had some connection to Gondolin in mind even then. But even had he not written this note, Tolkien's later decision is quite clear, when he ultimately sat down to 'find out the truth' and found that Glorfindel of Imladris was Glorfindel of Gondolin.

It seems some don't like the idea, but Tolkien himself thought: 'Also it may be found that acceptance of the identity of Glorfindel of old and of the Third Age will actually explain what is said of him and improve the story.' 

JRRT _Glorfindel II_, The Peoples of Middle-Earth


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## childoferu (Aug 5, 2009)

Galin said:


> Well, Tolkien himself decided that there was only one Glorfindel, and wrote two texts on the subject.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Just couldn't help it, could you Galin?


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## Elthir (Aug 5, 2009)

Well, I didn't bring it up at least 

Obviously people are free to not like something Tolkien imagined, but as far as the question goes, IMO Tolkien's answer is clear enough. And, unlike certain other matters of Middle-earth, there is no evidence (_as yet_) of any contrary conclusions with respect to the issue of Glorfindel.

The question went unanswered between the publication of _The Silmarillion_ in 1977 and the publication of the Glorfindel texts in the mid 1990s (assuming one would not take Christopher Tolkien's word for it, from an earlier volume of _The History of Middle-Earth_ series).

And... yes I just couldn't help myself  and no one even quoted the Encyclopedia of Arda yet!


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## Neumy (Aug 5, 2009)

It is my understanding that Glorfindel was first created by Tolkien to be just a random elf-lord (he most likely picked one of his favorite elf names from his stories). It was only after writing this did he go back and re-think how Glorfindel (from the First Age) could possibly get to Rivendell. But I think by the end, Tolkien did justify to himself that both Glorfindel's are the same.

Here's an exert from the People of Middle-Earth that kind of answers the questions here. (This is a great read and I recommend buying and reading the entire book.)



> (People Of Middle Earth): When Glorfindel of Gondolin was slain his spirit would according to the laws established by the One be obliged at once to return to the land of the Valar. Then he would go to Mandos and be judged, and would then remain in the 'Halls of Waiting' until Manwë granted him release. Elves were destined to be 'immortal', that is not to die within the unknown limits decreed by the One, which at the most could be until the end of the life of the Earth as a habitable realm. ... It was therefore the duty of the Valar, by command of the One, to restore them to incarnate life, if they desired it. But this 'restoration' could be delayed by Manwë, if the fëa while alive had done evil deeds and refused to repent of them, or still harboured any malice against any other person among the living.
> 
> Now Glorfindel of Gondolin was one of the exiled Ñoldor, rebels against the authority of Manwë, and they were all under a ban imposed by him: they could not return in bodily form to the Blessed Realm. ... but {Glorfindel} had no part in the kinslaying of Alqualondë.
> 
> ...



As for the "loophole". I think the above quote can also be used to plug this up. Any elf that died would be sent back to Valinor and remain in the 'Halls of Waiting'. If they are released, they were to remain in Valinor. Although it might have been possible for a few other elves to return to Middle-earth after their death, this would be unlikely.


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## Elthir (Aug 6, 2009)

Neumy said:


> It is my understanding that Glorfindel was first created by Tolkien to be just a random elf-lord (he most likely picked one of his favorite elf names from his stories).


 
That's true! Tolkien himself characterized it as a somewhat random use of names. But again I'll raise the 1938 note (written on a page of doodles), concerning which Christopher Tolkien explains: _'evidently represent my father's thoughts for the next stage of the story at this time'_




> Consultation. Over M[isty] M[ountains]. Down Great River to Mordor. Beyond (?) which is the Fiery Hill.
> 
> Story of Gilgalad told by Elrond? Who is Trotter? Glorfindel tells of his ancestry in Gondolin.


 
So Tolkien was still working out who 'Trotter' (Strider) was at this point, but he knew who Glorfindel was, having already written about his duel with a Balrog, not only in _The Book of Lost Tales_, but in Silmarillion related texts that came before _The Lord of the Rings_ (like _The Quenta_ and _The_ _Annals of Beleriand_). We know that JRRT did not ultimately have Glorfindel tell of his ancestry in Gondolin, but my point is, he did think about it at one stage at least (and it would have been quite interesting had he written a draft of this). 


The Encyclopedia of Arda currently states (citing notes from The Peoples of Middle-Earth): 'These notes clear up one question immediately: at the time of the writing of _The Lord of the Rings_, Glorfindel of Rivendell was _not_ conceived as the same character as Glorfindel of Gondolin.'

Their article doesn't mention the 1938 note however. I would agree that at this time Tolkien did not conclude that the two characters were the same being; and agree that his own characterization of a 'somewhat random' use of names indicates that he did not, _at the outset_, necessarily _intend_ the characters to be the same. But I would add that, having choosen the name, it would be only natural for the _character_ of Glorfindel of Gondolin to arise in his mind, and the 1938 note appears to show that it did.

For all we know Tolkien entertained the idea of 'one Glorfindel' in 1938, but wasn't sure, and in any case ultimately didn't see a place for Glorfindel's 'tale' as the story expanded and progressed, and he simply got on with his story, which would present plenty of other matters to occupy his mind.



> It was only after writing this did he go back and re-think how Glorfindel (from the First Age) could possibly get to Rivendell. But I think by the end, Tolkien did justify to himself that both Glorfindel's are the same.


 
Yes, and the gap in years is quite notable, as the late texts on Glorfindel probably date to 1972, which (if my math is correct), is 34 years after the note I quoted above!

Well, at least he got around to considering this. He was busy


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## Elthir (Oct 16, 2009)

A couple 1977 Silmarillion references (notable with respect to reincarnation):

'... and dying they are gathered to the halls of Mandos in Valinor, whence they may in time return.' Of The Beginning Of Days

(following the description of his grave) 'But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.' Of Beren And Luthien



And here's a look at some relevant comments about reincarnated Elves returning to Middle-earth: 'The re-housed fea will normally remain in Aman. Only in very exceptional cases, as Beren and Luthien, will they be transported back to Middle-earth...' But later, in his commentary to the _Athrabeth_, Tolkien notes why the Elves 'normally' remained in Aman: 'They 'normally remained in Aman'. Simply because they were, when rehoused, again in actual physical bodies, and return to Middle-earth was therefore very difficult and perilous. Also during the period of the Exile of the Noldor the Valar had for the time being cut all communications (by physical means) between Aman and Middle-earth.' Author's commentary, note 3, _Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth_

In the latest of these explanations, the matter seems quite optional: 'When they were re-embodied they could remain in Valinor, or return to Middle-earth if their home had been there.' JRRT, _Last Writings_, Glorfindel I, 1972

I meant to post this stuff earlier


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## Bucky (Oct 16, 2009)

Back to the original question:

'' elves never "die" and are only reincarnated back in Valinor, why couldn't they have just exploited that gift and keep sending elven warriors back to ME to conquer the enemy?!?!"

*Answer: Because the Noldor were in rebellion when they left Valinor and went to Middle-earth (the kinslaying, etc.)
To get a new body, they had to repent. That would require not leaving Valinor again. Catch-22..........

Glorfindel, if we chose to believe Tolkien's 2 essays written at age 80 & shortly before his death, are not in accord with each other or other writings on M-e that there was one Glorfindel, we must remember that Glorfindel didn't just choose to return, he was chosen to return, with all the help the Valar would then supply to accomplish the deed.

As for Elves spirits wandering middle-earth as opposed to entering Mandos as Gothmog says, that's a new one on me. *


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## Elthir (Oct 16, 2009)

Bucky said:


> Glorfindel, if we chose to believe Tolkien's 2 essays written at age 80 & shortly before his death, are not in accord with each other or other writings on M-e that there was one Glorfindel, we must remember that Glorfindel didn't just _choose_ to return, he was _chosen_ to return, with all the help the Valar would then supply to accomplish the deed.


 
I'm not sure I understand this correctly, but the two essays do agree with each other with respect to the main conclusion anyway (Glorfindel of Gondolin reincarnated and returned to Middle-earth). That they differ from each other in other details would not be that surprising for someone thinking the matter over (on paper).

And _if_ you mean that the two essays are not in accord with other writings concerning how many Glorfindels there were -- which other texts do you mean?


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## Bucky (Oct 18, 2009)

Galin said:


> I'm not sure I understand this correctly, but the two essays do agree with each other with respect to the main conclusion anyway (Glorfindel of Gondolin reincarnated and returned to Middle-earth). That they differ from each other in other details would not be that surprising for someone thinking the matter over (on paper).
> 
> And _if_ you mean that the two essays are not in accord with other writings concerning how many Glorfindels there were -- which other texts do you mean?



*Well, what I mean by 'not in accord' is that there would be much explaining Tolkien would've needed to do to give his usual detailed air of authenticity to the 'one Glorfindel' story as far as Glorf returning/being returned to Middle-earth.

In one case, coming with Gandalf, Tolkien clearly mentions Gandalf came 'last and alone'. As for Glorfindel otherwise coming via the Elves of Tol Eressea then the Numenoreans, we then have the issue of why he is never mentioned in all the long years of the Second & Third Ages until T.A. 1975. Such a powerful elf most certainly would've been at the Battle of Dagorlad & the Seige of Barad-dur for example. 

As for the essays themselves, here's the discord:

Essay #1 clearly states Glorfindel being 'supercharged' due to his 'rebirth' and life amoung the non-rebellious Noldor & Maiar of Valinor while in TLOR, it is clearly stated by Gandalf that Glorfindel's power comes from Glorfindel simply being a High Elf out of Valinor: "Those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and Unseen they have great power." Gandalf (or Glorfindel) furter states that such as could stand against the Nine were sent out from Rivendell to look for Frodo .

Obviously, taking those two latter day essays as 'gospel' would require much reworking of Tolkien's published works (as often is the case) and must be seen in the light of the fact that an editor (Christopher Tolkien) and not the author published these unfinished and (often) out of accord writings that JRR Tolkien would never have let see the light of day.*


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## Alcuin (Oct 19, 2009)

A stay in the Halls of Mandos served a purgatorial role for the Elves, who considered the deeds of their lives in Mandos. Glorfindel having returned from Mandos would be purged of any sin after a stay in purgatory, and since he had sacrificed himself to save the refugees of Gondolin from a demon, he entered Mandos with good commendation, despite whatever mistakes he had made centuries earlier in the Rebellion of the Noldor. It is that purgatorial stay that made him a little less powerful that Gandalf (the Grey), as I think I remember Tolkien writing.

I can’t recall any other texts that disagree with how many Elves had the name Glorfindel, certainly not any published in Tolkien’s lifetime. The uncertainty on Tolkien’s part that I can recall revolved around whether Elves were reborn to other Elven parents but recalled their prior lives, or whether they were “rehoused” as adults by the Ainur. 

Glorfindel is the only Elf ever recorded as having returned to Middle-earth, is he not? There is debate about when he returned: was it in the middle of the Second Age, when Gil-galad was under attack by Sauron, or in the Third Age, when the Istari arrived? My vote is for the Second Age, via Númenor: that way, his passage could have sparked jealousy among the Dúnedain of the island, who died never to return; but that can wait for another thread.

Finally, I do not agree with the idea that returning from Mandos was a “loophole” for the Elves, the premise of the thread. (But, oh!, *childoferu*, thank you for posting it!) For one thing, they might be held in Mandos for quite some time: there was no reasonable expectation that they would be released in time to return to war. For another, the Valar effectively banned passage to and from Middle-earth during the First Age: Eärendil got through because of the Silmaril. Lastly, the Valar had determined (until Eärendil arrived) that the Noldor were on their own in Beleriand, so going back to help their kindred would have been forbidden for either Noldor or even Sindar. 

There are a few very late essays from the last two or three years that seems violate earlier published works. The one most obvious to me is about Galadriel and Celeborn, expurgating Galadriel of any guilt and making Celeborn one of the Teleri of Eldamar instead of one of the Sindar: the last version just doesn’t work for me, and I think it conflicts with too much earlier material, including some in the _Lord of the Rings_. But, then, I am not the author of the sub-creative tale...


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## Elthir (Oct 19, 2009)

Bucky said:


> Well, what I mean by 'not in accord' is that there would be much explaining Tolkien would've needed to do to give his usual detailed air of authenticity to the 'one Glorfindel' story as far as Glorf returning/being returned to Middle-earth.'


 
OK but I meant in discord with other writings _'concerning how many Glorfindels there were'_ -- in other words (as *Alcuin* noted), it's not like Tolkien wrote several competing conclusions on the matter of 1, 2, or even 20 Elves named Glorfindel, from the 1950s to the early 1970s, and ended up in the 1970s deciding something variant compared to an earlier text. 

But you didn't mean that anyway  so moving on...





> In one case, coming with Gandalf, Tolkien clearly mentions Gandalf came 'last and alone'.


 
Out of curiosity which text states 'last and alone' (and does not mean 'alone of the Istari', which appears to be the meaning of Saruman more likely coming 'first and alone' in _The Five Wizards_, Last Writings)? I don't feel like tracking all the possible references down and don't remember them all in detail.

In any case, if something is in discord with what JRRT published, that's one thing; comparing two draft texts and finding variations between them is another matter however, and not unexpected while writers work out the details of their secondary world.




> As for Glorfindel otherwise coming via the Elves of Tol Eressea then the Numenoreans, we then have the issue of why he is never mentioned in all the long years of the Second & Third Ages until T.A. 1975. Such a powerful elf most certainly would've been at the Battle of Dagorlad & the Seige of Barad-dur for example.


 

He probably was, but did he do anything historically notable in order to secure mention in only _very brief_ (published) references to the Last Alliance? 

Tolkien appears to have thought Glorfindel was a powerful Elf before he certainly decided to make him the same being as Glorfindel of Gondolin. If he decides that Glorfindel is even more powerful among the Noldorin Elf Lords of Imladris, it doesn't necessarily translate to discord in that he gets no mention with respect to brief references to the Last Alliance, which generally included: 'so many great princes and captains' assembled (The Council Of Elrond).



> As for the essays themselves, here's the discord: Essay #1 clearly states Glorfindel being 'supercharged' due to his 'rebirth' and life amoung the non-rebellious Noldor & Maiar of Valinor while in TLOR, it is clearly stated by Gandalf that Glorfindel's power comes from Glorfindel simply being a High Elf out of Valinor: "Those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and Unseen they have great power." Gandalf (or Glorfindel) furter states that such as could stand against the Nine were sent out from Rivendell to look for Frodo.


 
Gandalf's statement here is not specifically about Glorfindel however, but a general statement given to answer Frodo about the Elves of Rivendell: 'What about Rivendell and The Elves? Is Rivendell safe?' Gandalf answers (includes your quote), then Frodo asks specifically about Glorfindel: 'Was that Glorfindel then?' and so on. In Essay I Tolkien says Glorfindel's circumstances would explain the air 'of special power and sanctity that surrounds Glorfindel'. No discord here in my opinion; and I see no very compelling reason why Gandalf need digress here (for Frodo) on Elven reincarnation and Glorfindel's particular detailed history.




> Obviously, taking those two latter day essays as 'gospel' would require much reworking of Tolkien's published works (as often is the case)...'


 
Well, as I don't agree with the two matters you raised so far concerning _published_ work, I'm not exactly with you on 'much' yet 


As I say it's not a given that a reincarnated Elf 'should' get mention in relatively brief references to every battle he attended. I would think it would depend on the circumstances of him doing something 'historically notable', not just him being one of the best warriors on the field, for instance. 

But here is one thing I'll grant you: due to Glorfindel II Tolkien arguably was going to add (not rework as in alter something) just a bit to _The Lord of the Rings,_ but not necessarily just because of his reincarnated power status, and seemingly not with respect to the Last Alliance. To my mind Glorfindel's 'not (yet) mentioned' role in the annals recording Sauron's defeat (see the note 'between' Glorfindel I and II) appears to connect to his reason for being sent. The idea seems to be: if Glorfindel was sent to aid Elrond in this crisis (Sauron invading Eriador), then something should be made of his role in this war. 

This makes sense, but I still don't find it discordant, as the reference to the War of the Elves and Sauron (and etc) is very brief in _The Tale of years_... and I note that Glorfindel _was_ present in TA 1975 at the defeat of the Witch-king, for example, yet he is still not noted as such in _The Tale of Years _specifically_._





> ... and must be seen in the light of the fact that an editor (Christopher Tolkien) and not the author published these unfinished and (often) out of accord writings that JRR Tolkien would never have let see the light of day.


 
I agree that the Glorfindel texts were not finished or ready for public consumption of course, but not only that, one is missing a part, and they are not written as internal texts but written by JRRT as author. I don't see these Glorfindel texts as gospel in all details (Tolkien seems to have forgotten that he had introduced many Sindar into Gondolin, for example). But what I do take away from them is the main thrust of Tolkien's decision, consistent in that in both essays a reincarnated and returned Glorfindel is desired.


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## Bucky (Oct 19, 2009)

Since I don't have time to go through this line for line (child arriving from school any minute), I have just one question........

Why would the Valar send a mere elf as Sauron is overunning all Middle-earth in the Second Age, but then send five mightier Maiar when only his shadow has (possibly) arisen in the Third Age?

This makes very little sense at all from a 'swaying of power' standpoint, does it? 

Gotta run, bus is here.......

I'll try to get back later, but I'm sure that quote about Gandalf coming 'last and alone' comes from another Unfinished Tale - however, that was finished for the Appendix to TLOR but not included.
CT makes note of it in a footnote in the Glorfindel essays too I believe.
Will check later.


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## Alcuin (Oct 19, 2009)

The situation in the Second Age was completely different from that in the Third Age. Encouraging an alliance between the Númenóreans and the Eldar of Middle-earth could be, in some ways, compensatory for having removed the Eldar from Middle-earth to Valinor in the first place. (I think the Valar later saw this as a mistake, separating the Elder and Second Kindreds, Elves and Men.) It gave the Elves physical access to their friends and kinsfolk, Eldar of Tol Eressëa. 

(No one speculates about it very much, but for a while, Númenor could have been quite a trading station between Eldar in Tol Eressëa and Lindon. That could have been quite profitable for the Dúnedain, if it transpired.)

The Númenóreans in alliance with the Eldar of Lindon drove Sauron back to Mordor in utter ruin: after destroying Eregion and killing the Eldar of Ost-in-Edhil (including Celebrimbor, whose corpse he hung from a pole and used a banner), Sauron escaped with his hide and a small bodyguard. Wrecking Númenor had to be a high priority on Sauron’s to-do list. Permitting Glorfindel to return to Middle-earth in the mid-Second Age – assuming that’s what happened – might have been one way to bolster the Eldar of Middle-earth with as little interference as possible. 

In _FotR_, Glorfindel tells Aragorn and the hobbits that there were few in Rivendell that could ride openly against the Nazgûl, but such as there were, Elrond dispatched to help Frodo. The Great East Road was probably the most dangerous assignment, given to Glorfindel, perhaps, because he was strongest and best prepared to confront them: even Gandalf had difficulty on Weathertop.

(We are all winging this without a lot of citations…)


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## Elthir (Oct 20, 2009)

I would say Glorfindel returned in the Second Age to strengthen in a similar way as the Maiar. Such a famed Elvish paragon would certainly be an inspiration I think, and a great leader.

In the text titled The Five Wizards, which _'arose from my father's consideration of the matter of Glorfindel, as is seen from the opening words'_ Tolkien appears to even consider, if for a moment, or at least he wrote down the question: 'Was in fact Glorfindel one of them?' (which are the opening words referred to actually).

I kind of like the 'companion to Gandalf' idea, but if Glorfindel II _'followed the first at no long interval'_ (CJRT) it's arguable that the revised thought, at least at this point, was to assist Elrond and etc (arriving on a Numenorean ship it appears), and that Glorfindel would have some notable part in the War.

As *Alcuin* notes, the situation was very different from the Third Age (at this point in the Second Age), and I think a similar function to the Maiar was in Tolkien's mind here, or could have been anyway.


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## Bucky (Oct 20, 2009)

Then why not send back Finrod Felagund in the Second Age?

He almost put down Sauron all by himself pre-reincarnation.


Then, wasn't there 2 different Gelmirs?

Why didn't the Prof. see the need to reconcile that?


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## Elthir (Oct 21, 2009)

Bucky said:


> Then why not send back Finrod Felagund in the Second Age? He almost put down Sauron all by himself pre-reincarnation.


 
Tolkien specifically notes (Glorfindel II) that all Glorfindel's kin had perished and were in the Halls of Waiting. I see no need to sunder Finrod from Finarfin instead of sending Glorfindel. 



> Then, wasn't there 2 different Gelmirs? Why didn't the Prof. see the need to reconcile that?


 
Generally speaking two Elves can have the same name, and JRRT had not written otherwise even in private texts. There are seemingly two Elves named Rúmil in _The Lord of the Rings_ (Tolkien actually comments on this point in _Words, Phrases and Passages_ incidentally).

In my opinion Tolkien _desired_ to 'find out' if the Glorfindels were the same, and did so, putting it to paper. In these late texts, thus at the same time he is considering the matter and not in any previous text, Tolkien decides that it would not be credible for the name Glorfindel to be repeated (see note 7 to _Last Writings_ for his reasons). In _Last Writings_ note 1 JRRT explains that Galdor's name: '... is of a more simple and usual form and might be repeated' for example.

Tolkien could have simply altered the name Glorfindel of course, despite his chosen approach to act as if it were already 'true' in the history of the Elder Days that the Elf who died defending the fugitives of Gondolin from a demon was named Glorfindel. It was already 'true' in one sense obviously, as it had been a long held idea, noting Glorfindel the Gnome in _The_ _Book of Lost Tales_, but as CJRT explains, Glorfindel of Gondolin had appeared in no published writing and this option was open to his father in any case.


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## Bucky (Oct 22, 2009)

On the subject of the 'commonness' of Elvish names, The Encyclopedia of Arda lists Glorfindel as meaning 'Goldenhaired Elf'.....

With as many blonde Elves, even of Noldorin descent, that sounds about as common as it gets.


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## Elthir (Oct 26, 2009)

Glorfindel means 'Golden-haired'. Maybe (or maybe not) the Encyclopedia adds 'Elf' because they think this is part of the name, but as far as I know it is more simply S. glaur + findel (finnel) 'head of hair'.

In general I don't agree with the Encyclopedia's essay on Glorfindel, or their decision on the matter, noting their conclusion:




> Despite this, the _Glorfindel_ notes lead many to see his re-embodiment and return to Middle-earth as 'fact' (and not a few have e-mailed us to remind us of this!) The purpose of this rather lengthy aside, though, is to show that we cannot view these 'events' in such concrete terms. This is the reason that the 'two Glorfindels' have separate entries on this site. This is not because we do not believe that Tolkien saw them as different embodiments of the same character (as we have seen, there are strong indications that he _did_), but simply because there is no definitive, published, proof of this.


 
Strong indications? We have two conclusions written by JRRT, which agree with each other as to the main question at least; nor does CJRT appear to characterize the conclusions tentatively in _The History of Middle-Earth_ series.

Also I would remind the writers of the Encyclopedia that we have no _'definitive, published proof'_ that there was even an Elf in Gondolin named Glorfindel, if (as it seems) they are going to suggest that 'published by Tolkien himself' is the necessary criterion here. The 'published' Silmarillion is no more published by JRRT than his late Glorfindel texts. 

And the fact that Tolkien considered Glorfindel a Noldo and yet his name means 'Golden-haired' in not very problematic in my opinion, as according to at least one of the late essays Glorfindel is said to have had kinship with Turgon, whose daughter was golden-haired for instance.

True the Noldor and Sindar were mostly dark-haired, but exceptions occured among them.


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## Confusticated (Feb 6, 2010)

No way would the Valar sit back and rehouse elf after elf by the tens of thousands and ship them off to die for an umpteenth time. People have mentioned reasons for why not, but what about the Eldar? They do not take death so lightly as to embrace 'loophole' even if Mandos was down with it. 

Can't see anyone feeling too good about what is essentially the mass recycling of bodily house for the spirit of elves. This couldn't be healthy spiritually.

But even supposing the Eldar and Valar agreed to work together in such a way, there was more efficient ways to fight Morgoth than a thousand deaths per elf system. War of Wrath is an example of it.

__________

On the subject of 'why' Glorfindel - why Gandalf? Why anyone? Valar have foresight and hunches.


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## Alcuin (Feb 7, 2010)

Nóm said:


> No way would the Valar sit back and rehouse elf after elf by the tens of thousands and ship them off to die for an umpteenth time. People have mentioned reasons for why not, but what about the Eldar? They do not take death so lightly as to embrace 'loophole' even if Mandos was down with it.


Second Age Númenóreans certainly thought this was a potential "loophole," and they fell as a result. But as *Nóm* points out, it isn't clear the Valar would ever agree to such a scheme: if anything, they'd not only refuse to cooperate, they'd probably act to shut it down as an idea. It smacks of Sauronian thinking to deliberately send Elves to death with the intent of re-embodying them to send them back to war and death. 

Moreover the Halls of Mandos were a kind of Elvish Purgatory, where the disembodied souls of the elves considered their good and evil deeds. This reflective spiritual purification and sanctification was the source of the power of Glorfindel in the Third Age. That the Valar would permit it to be desecrated in this way.


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