# Saruman's soul?



## Maeglin (Oct 7, 2002)

> To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing.



Was this Saruman's soul? I was always thought so. And if so why did it bother looking into the west? you would think he knew he had no chance of returning, but maybe he thought he'd give it a shot? Or maybe he was then regretting what he had done towards the end of his days and hoping to go back? And what became of his soul, did he just cease to exist, or did he join Morgoth in the abyss maybe? What are everyone's thoughts?


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## YayGollum (Oct 7, 2002)

Yeah, it probably was his soul. Yeah, he probably did feel bad. Yeah, the wind was probably Manwe saying, "Too bad. You blew it." As to your question about where his soul went, I'd have to say Ack! I don't know, either! I was trying to make a story about adventures in the afterlife and not too many people wanted to help me out with it! Argh! Why does the afterlife have to be such a mystery?


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## Ceorl (Oct 8, 2002)

Not Sarumans soul; rather Saruman himself, as he is in Maia form. The Saurman that was killed was his physical habitation, that he was embodied with when he became Istari. 

He was (assumably) denied by the West when he turned thus in yearning, and was sent to wander, unless the Valar choose to banish him also.


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## Lantarion (Oct 8, 2002)

Well put, Ceorl, I agree; IMO the ghostlike figure was Saruman in his true form, and he tried to beg leave to enter back into Aman: but as we see he is denied, and sent away. As to where, I have always thought he was sent to the Void, with Melkor.. But I now doubt this, as it would be an incredibly severe punishment; after all, Sauron was just left to die, and he did things tens of thousands of times worse than Saruman! 
Saruman was just greedy and mad-struck by it, whereas Sauron was corrupted by Melkor himself! 
So I would say that he was probably sent to the areas around Arda, though not the Void.


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## TheFool (Oct 8, 2002)

_"He is fallen, and his cure is beyond us; but I would still spare him, in the hope that he may find it" _

At this point Frodo has 'forgiven' Saruman for everything except Wormtongue's last meal; Is it a bit strange that Frodo was able to forgive Saruman, yet the Valar were not?


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## Maeglin (Oct 8, 2002)

well i don't think its so strange, seeing as Saruman never did anything directly to harm Frodo, but he hurt lots of others, and that would get the valar mad


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## Goldberry (Oct 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by TheFool _
> *"He is fallen, and his cure is beyond us; but I would still spare him, in the hope that he may find it"
> 
> At this point Frodo has 'forgiven' Saruman for everything except Wormtongue's last meal; Is it a bit strange that Frodo was able to forgive Saruman, yet the Valar were not? *



Perhaps his spirit has to work towards repairing the hurt he did, or countering it with goodness, before he can be forgiven by the Valar and accepted into Aman. His spirit may have many years of labor before he has fulfilled his "penance" and be accepted into Aman.


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## TheFool (Oct 8, 2002)

Ah, but is there any good left in Saruman? (I might as well mention Darth Vader now ) 
I would say there is, as his 'spirit' wants to be let back into Arda; (I don't think Sauron would want back in...), so yes Goldberry your 'penance' theory sounds quite possible.


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## Tyaronumen (Oct 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by TheFool _
> *Ah, but is there any good left in Saruman? (I might as well mention Darth Vader now )
> I would say there is, as his 'spirit' wants to be let back into Arda; (I don't think Sauron would want back in...), so yes Goldberry your 'penance' theory sounds quite possible. *




I think that Sauron would've *LOVED* to go back to Arda -- consider the Silmarillion, where he would go back, but for the shame of having to face the judgement of the Valar.

Sauron would like to go back -- but on HIS terms...


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## Maeglin (Oct 10, 2002)

Wait a minute! I don't know what you people are talking about, there is absolutely nothing, his soul included, to go back to Arda. He, including his soul, is D-E-A-D DEAD! If his soul still existed there would still be wars going on against him in ME, the purpose of destroying the ring was to destroy his soul as well, haven't you realized that just defeating him and taking the ring is not enough, he only appeared to be dead, but his soul remained, the ring was destroyed to utterly kill him, so they never have to worry about him taking shape again, because even without the ring he could still kick some major A$$ in ME, we see that in LotR, he doesn't have the ring and is having no problems killing everyone. Anyway I hope I made that clear enough, the way I said it kind of confused me myself.


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## Ceorl (Oct 10, 2002)

Ahh here comes the theological debate; can a person be pure evil?

In my opinion everything has some good in it somewhere, evil oft cheats itself and thus causes good, therefore even evil itself has a small bit of good left in it. I also believe that all people have good inside of them no matter what they have done.

And Glorfindel, we are talking about Saruman the Wizard, not Sauron.


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## Maeglin (Oct 10, 2002)

Not right now we aren't, read the last 2 posts before mine, trust me those were not spelling errors. But I do agree with you that Saruman had some good left in him, I never doubted that, in fact I think he had a lot of good left in him, but he chose not to admit that because as part of doing that he would have to admit that Gandalf was right and is better than him, something he doesn't want to do. But as for Sauron, I highly doubt he had any good left in him.


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## TheFool (Oct 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by TheFool _
> * (I don't think Sauron would want back in *



Maybe this is not clear but all I was trying to do was to point out a difference, IMO, between Saruman and Sauron, ie maybe Saruman is not totally evil, whereas Sauron is (yes, I agree _Sauron_ is totally destroyed, and totally evil  ). 
(obviously Tyaronumen has a different opinion, or maybe a typo?  )


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## Erestor Arcamen (Aug 17, 2014)

I think UT gives a good answer to this question:



> ’Whereas Curunir was cast down, and utterly humbled, and perished as last by the hand of an oppressed slave; and his spirit went whithersoever it was doomed to go, and to Middle-earth, whether naked or embodied, came never back’ ~ The Istari- Unfinished Tales



I really felt bad for him. I mean yes he did a lot of evil things, but he was at one time good. And if you think about it, what he did was part of Illuvatar's plans weren't they? I get this from the following quote:



> ..."Behold your Music! This is your ministrelsy...And so it was that this vision of the World was played before them, the Ainur saw that it contained things which they had not thought. And they saw in amazement the coming of the Children of Iluvatar, and the habitation that was prepare for them...for the history was incomplete and the circles of time not full-wrought when the vision was taken away. And some had said that the vision ceased ere the fulfilment of the Dominion of Men and the fading of the Firstborn...



The vision ceased ere (before) the fulfillment of the Dominion of Men, so that would have been before the end of the 3rd Age, when the dominion of men went into full swing wouldn't it? I guess this could be a whole nother thread if it hasn't been done before, "were the evils of Sauron and Saruman part of Illuvatar's plan all along? and if so, why were they punished for them?"


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## PaigeSinclaire88 (Dec 20, 2016)

I've always believed it to be his soul, and I think it was to not only show Saruman had a soul but to also show that he was capable of regret and knew he would be missing out on the chance to sail to the West with the rest of his long time friends.


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## OfRhosgobel (Dec 21, 2016)

Maeglin said:


> Was this Saruman's soul? I was always thought so. And if so why did it bother looking into the west? you would think he knew he had no chance of returning, but maybe he thought he'd give it a shot? Or maybe he was then regretting what he had done towards the end of his days and hoping to go back? And what became of his soul, did he just cease to exist, or did he join Morgoth in the abyss maybe? What are everyone's thoughts?



Yes his soul or spirit, it is eternal after all. And a plea to enter the west was given and denied. His spirit blown away by the winds of Manwe. A very poignant moment as all you need do is read between the lines and it's all there.. He was denied Valinor by Manwe himself! Perhaps he did regret what he had done, after all he only lost faith late in the third age as an Istari. As a maiar in Valinor he was faithful to Illuvitar, but he lost his way and sought to vie with Sauron and indeed become the lord of Middle-Earth and his fate was sealed. I believe he was not cast into the void or restrained in any way, but left to wander in dark forgotten places, a spirit of forgotten malice.


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