# Origins of the Istari



## StinkhornJake (Mar 27, 2002)

We, the readers, are not given many details on the how's and where's of Mithrandir's origins, and those of his order. I've got a theory about the author's intent on the mater. But what are some of your ideas


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## Mormegil (Mar 27, 2002)

Read the Unfinished Tales. There is a whole section in there devoted to the Istari.


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## Elanor2 (Mar 27, 2002)

For those who do not have the UT, here is resume:

The Istari are Maiar (lesser powers) and were sent by the Valar to help ME in the 3rd age.

Originally the Valar selected 3 (order in power originally):

- Saruman, selected by Aule
- Alatar, selected by Orome
- Gandalf, selected by Manwe

Additionally, Alatar's friend Pallando, joined him. They are the Blue wizards, that forgot their mission and are lost.
Also, Yavanna insisted in seding one of her own (Ragadast) with Saruman. Saruman resented and despised Ragadast (who also forgot his mission and only cares for animals and plants, so he is also 'lost').

Gandalf was reluctant to take the task and arrived last. However, Varda predicted that he, who was to be the last to arrive and the third in power, would become the first.


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## baraka (Mar 27, 2002)

Here is a passage of the UT:

Of major interest, however, is a brief and very hasty sketch of a narrative, telling of a council of the Valar, summoned it seems by Manwë ("and maybe he called upon Eru for counsel?"), at which it was resolved to send out three emissaries to Middle-earth. "Who would go ? For they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and weariness coming from the flesh." But two only came forward: Curumo, who was chosen by Aulë, and Alatar, who was sent by Oromë. Then Manwë asked, where was Olórin ? And Olórin, who was clad in grey, and having just entered from a journey had seated himself at the edge of the council, asked what Manwë would have of him. Manwë replied that he wished Olórin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth (and it is remarked in parentheses that "Olórin was a lover of the Eldar that remained," apparently to explain Manwë's choice). But Olórin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwë said that that was all the more reason why he should go, and that he commanded Olórin (illegible words follow that seems to contain word "third"). But at that Varda looked up and said: "Not as the third;" and Curumo remembered it.
The note ends with the statement that Curumo [Saruman] took Aiwendil [Radagast] because Yavanna begged him, and that Alatar took Pallando as a friend.

Hope this helps.


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## Halandor (Mar 27, 2002)

all the wizards were maiar, and all came from the West with the mission to conter the moves of Sauron. Their names were Olorin (Gandalf), Curumo (Saruman), Aiwendil (Radagast), Alatar, and Pallando. The last two are the Blue Wizards, who went into the East and are not in LOTR.


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## Úlairi (Mar 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Elanor2 _
> *For those who do not have the UT, here is resume:
> 
> The Istari are Maiar (lesser powers) and were sent by the Valar to help ME in the 3rd age.
> ...



Elanor2, Gandalf was of a higher order of Maiar than Alatar. He came second in power, but was the last to arrive in Middle-earth along with Radagast the Brown. As for the Ithryn Luin (The Blue Wizards) forgetting their mission, that is not true. This is what Tolkien wrote on the subject:



> Of the Blue little is known in the West, and they had no names save _Ithryn Luin_ 'the Blue Wizards'; for they passed into the East with Curunir, but they never returned, and whether they remained in the East, pursuing there the purposes for which they were sent; or perished; or as some hold were ensnared by Sauron and became his servants, is not now known."



As for Gandalf being the second highest in the order of the Istari, it says later in the chapter:



> Saruman is said (e.g. by Gandalf himself) to have been the chief of the Istari - that is, higher in Valinorean stature than the others. *Gandalf was evidently the next the next in order.*



Gandalf was the second highest of the Istari i.e. Gandalf the Grey, but in the end of LoTR he becomes the highest of the order when he breaks the staff of Saruman and truly becomes Gandalf the White. When I say *truly* I mean that I know that Gandalf the Grey became Gandalf the White when he came back to life after being killed by the Balrog but he didn't *truly* become the head of the order until he broke the staff of Saruman.


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## Dol Amroth (Mar 30, 2002)

I think it's quite a debatable point about the order of rank of the Istari. Obviously, in terms of the White Council, Sauruman was head. But when in tLotR Gandalf calls Sauruman "head of my order", does he mean of the Istari, or just the White Council, of which I don't believe the other three Istari were members. I'm going to be a bit tentative in putting forward a few ideas, because it's a long time since I've read the relevent section of Unfinished Tales. But from what I remeber of the scene in which the Valar select the Istari, I interpreted Yavanna's words as saying not that he WOULD become the first, but that he went AS the first in power, though the last to arrive both to the council and in ME. I also seem to recall - though I should probably go and look this up before opening my muth - that the passage which refers to Gandalf in "The Silmarillion" mentions him as being second among the Maiar only to Melian, though I may be totally off with that.
As far as the Blue Wizards abandoning their mission, although their fate is unknown, it is stated, thought I can't remember where, that Gandalf was the only one of the Istari to hold true to his purpose. When three wizards go off East and only one returns it may just be suspicious, but when the one who returns is Sauruman, I can't help feeling that there was something fishy going on somewhere...


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## Úlairi (Mar 31, 2002)

Dol Amroth, you are correct in saying that Gandalf was the only true one to his mission, but Tolkien states in The Peoples of Middle-earth that Morinehtar (Alatar) and Romestamo (Pallando) had a great influence on the peoples of the East in the Second Age. Their mission was to help the peoples of the East and also search for the whereabouts of Sauron after his fall in the S.A. As I have stated above:



> "Of the Blue little is known in the West, and they had no names save Ithryn Luin 'the Blue Wizards'; for they passed into the East with Curunir, but they never returned, and whether they remained in the East, pursuing there the purposes for which they were sent; or perished; or as some hold were ensnared by Sauron and became his servants, is not now known."



Here is some possibilities as to how they did not complete their mission. They either perished or were even ensnared by Sauron but that is not known. I also read somewhere that it is a possiblity that they started their own magic cults somewhere. Mmmmmm, maybe that's how Hogwart's came to be?


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## Úlairi (Mar 31, 2002)

Dol Amroth, you are correct in saying that Gandalf was the only true one to his mission, but Tolkien states in The Peoples of Middle-earth that Morinehtar (Alatar) and Romestamo (Pallando) had a great influence on the peoples of the East in the Second Age. Their mission was to help the peoples of the East and also search for the whereabouts of Sauron after his fall in the S.A. As I have stated above:



> "Of the Blue little is known in the West, and they had no names save Ithryn Luin 'the Blue Wizards'; for they passed into the East with Curunir, but they never returned, *and whether they remained in the East, pursuing there the purposes for which they were sent; or perished; or as some hold were ensnared by Sauron and became his servants, is not now known*."



Here is some possibilities as to how they did not complete their mission. They either perished or were even ensnared by Sauron but that is not known. I also read somewhere that it is a possiblity that they started their own magic cults somewhere. Mmmmmm, maybe that's how Hogwart's came to be?


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## Mormegil (Mar 31, 2002)

There is also a possibility that Saruman killed them. They went into the East with him and never returned. And then Saruman doesn't particularly give out his knowledge of them does he. Perhaps he had already chosen his evil path even then, and got rid of the Blue Wizards at the start.


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## Úlairi (Mar 31, 2002)

No Mormegil, Saruman didn't kill them because in "The People of Middle-earth" is states that they had a great influence on the East in the Second and Third Ages. Saruman could not have taken out two Maia either, especially Alatar. I have been doing extensive research into the Blue Wizards and have written down every piece of information that is referred to them and now consider myself to be quite an expert on them. The reason Saruman could not take out Alatar was because Alatar was allowed to use his powers quite a bit more than the others. Alatar was known as Morinehtar, which means "darkness-slayer". Pallando was his companion and was known as Romestamo, meaning "East-helper" and I believe their names were suggestive of what they actually did


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## Mormegil (Apr 1, 2002)

OK, I stand corrected. 
But it still is a possibility though.


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## Úlairi (Apr 2, 2002)

Explain how it is a possibility Mormegil.


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## Mormegil (Apr 2, 2002)

Even if it is very unlikely, maybe nearly impossible then it is still a possibility.

Also, your main reason behind stating that Saruman couldn't have taken out 2 other Maiar is flawed.
Gandalf himself states *"Saruman the White is the greatest of my Order."* Meaning that Saruman was the most powerful wizard, more powerful than Gandalf or Alatar. So he could have killed the Blue Wizards.

Also, if Saruman did kill the Blue Wizards, he didn't have to do it on his initial journey into the East with them. Seeing how *"Curunir journeyed often into the East"* (Unfinished Tales, The Istari). Perhaps he travelled to them at a later date, asking them to help him claim the One Ring, and after being refused, killed them.

Also there is the argument that as HoME was published after JRRT's death, that we cannot take everything written in them as Gospel truth. JRRT changed his mind on many things, Such as the fact that Strider was originally a travelling Hobbit named Trotter. 
If I were to claim things about Aragorn based on the fact that he was a travelling Hobbit, I would quite clearly be wrong. As this was not the intended final version of JRRT.
How do we know that anything JRRT wrote about the Istari that was published posthumously was what he intended to be the final version.

Indeed there are descrepencies. In some places it states that the Blue Wizards are never named. But in otjher places they are named as Alatar and Pollando. Obviously both of these cannot be correct, so JRRT changed his mind at some point. How do we know that he didn't change his mind on other things concerning the Istari??

So back to the original point. I believe that although unlikely, Saruman could have killed the Blue Wizards. It is not what I personally believe, but it is a possibility. And seeing how I have an open mind, I can see it as a remote possibility.


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## Úlairi (Apr 4, 2002)

I agree with you Mormegil. However, I cannot see Saruman, despite the fact that he was more powerful than the others, destroying two Maia without perishing himself. As for Morinehtar (Alatar), he was allowed to use his powers a little more openly seeing as his main mission was to drive away dark powers either under or not under the service of Sauron out in the east, where as Saruman was restricted from using his powers as openly as Alatar.


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## Mormegil (Apr 4, 2002)

And we all know that Saruman did exactly as the Valar told him don't we. Perhaps it was the Valar who told him to claim the One Ring for himself and be the next Dark Lord.

Just because the Valar told the Istari not to use their full powers, it doesn't mean that Saruman obeyed them. We know that he left his mission, so he would have no reason to continue to obey the Valar.


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## Úlairi (Apr 5, 2002)

Mormegil, you could not or did not see the point. I have mentioned somewhere in this forum that I have gathered every shred of evidence on the Ithryn Luin and the Istari. They could not (and I mean that literally) use their powers because the Valar restricted it, or bound them physically from doing so.


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## StinkhornJake (Apr 5, 2002)

Have you guys viewed my thread entitled "Gandalf the sailor"?


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## Mormegil (Apr 5, 2002)

Ulairi, if this is true then I would like to know where you got evidence of it from, so that I may check it out. 
Perhaps a quote or something to back up your argument.


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## Dol Amroth (Apr 5, 2002)

Mormegil, he is right on this one. I'm not saying that Sauruman couldn't have killed or otherwise perverted the blue wizards from their mission, but the Valar are said to have imposed limitations on the power of the Istari. In the Unfinished Tales we are told that on coming to ME them "forgot" much of what they had known, and though they learnt some of it again, did not regain their full powers whilst in human form.


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## Úlairi (Apr 5, 2002)

Thankyou Dol Amroth. I am right. Mormegil, I have a few quotes to help my argument, both are from UT.



> "For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of the earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years. And the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they had attemted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed; *whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men or Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek and unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt.*"



There is the answer Mormegil, the Istari could not display power or come in forms of majesty so in no way could Saruman kill the other two using 'power'. Here is another quote to support the fact that Alatar could use his powers more 'openly' than Saruman.



> "... and that each had different powers and inclinations and were chosen by the Valar with this in mind."



So Alatar, whose mission was to drive away dark powers in the East, was allowed to use his powers a little more than the others because of his mission and Saruman could not have killed him because:

1) Saruman could not use his powers openly.
2) Alatar, whose mission was to drive away darkness, had a little more leway and could use his powers a little more 'openly' than Saruman, so if Saruman attempted to kill Alatar physically, Alatar could use his powers to either kill or drive away Saruman, despite Saruman's Valinorean stature.


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## Mormegil (Apr 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *Mormegil, I have a few quotes to help my argument, both are from UT.*


Ulairi, These quotes do not win the argument for you.



> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *
> quote:
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ...


This does not say that the Istari were physically and spiritually limited by the Valar. It merely says that they were 'forbidden' to openly display their power. 
When I was younger I was forbidden to swear and curse by my parents. But it didn't stop me doing it when they weren't around.
Bottom line. The Istari may have been forbidden to openly display their power, but you have shown no proof that they physically couldn't have defied this ban.




> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *
> quote:
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ...


This definately doesn't proove that Alatar was stronger than Saruman. It merely states that the Istari had different powers. Which of course we know because they were Maiar of different Valar. 
Radagast had power over animals and nature, being of Yavanna. Sauron had power over earthly things, being of Aule. Gandalf had power over fire and leadership qualities, being of Manwe. 
So your quote merely states what we already know. That the Istari had different powers. It does not state that some Istari were stronger, or allowed to be stronger by the Valar.
You have shown nothing to prove that Alatar was allowed greater power than the other Istari.

You have shown nothing to counter the fact that Gandalf says Saruman is the greatest of his order. 
Now that is from the mouth of an Istar. Who are you to argue?


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## A Ranger (Apr 6, 2002)

The Istari were deffinetly limited in using their powers because they were made into physical beings and while it may be Saruman was less powerful then the Blue wizards on his own, your forgeting that saruman crafted a ring for himself. It may not have been an extremly powerful ring but it unlocked his inner power, that was still inside him, so that he may have been able to defeat them. I don't personally believe this it is just possible


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## Úlairi (Apr 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Mormegil _
> *
> Ulairi, These quotes do not win the argument for you.
> 
> ...


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## Mormegil (Apr 7, 2002)

Ulairi. I still do not see the proof I need to make me believe that Saruman couldn't have destroyed the 2 Blue Wizards.

*



Originally posted by Ulairi 

Your parents could not physically shut your mouth. But the Valar could. 

Click to expand...

I have no doubt that the Valar 'could' do it. But where is the proof that they 'did' it.






Originally posted by Ulairi 

They not only forbade the Istari to use their powers they restricted it. Meaning that the Istari could not use an open display of power, even if they tried. 

Click to expand...

Again where is the proof??
Didn't Saruman defy the ban and openly display his power by creating his own ring, building up an army of Orcs and Uruk-Hai, and imprisoning Gandalf? How did he do all this if he was restricted in his powers?





Originally posted by Ulairi 

Alatar could use his powers more openly than Saruman because that was his individual mission (to drive away dark powers of the east). 


Click to expand...

All I ask for is a quote to back up this statement. Where is the proof of it?
I do not believe that one of the Istari was allowed to use his powers more openly than the others. since.. "They were forbidden to match his power with power" (Unfinished Tales, The Istari)
Notice how that quote says 'they', and not 'All except Alatar'. 





Originally posted by Ulairi 

But wouldn't you agree that Saruman's power turned dark because he turned to evil and whose mission was it to drive away dark powers? Alatar. This proves that if Saruman attempted to kill him he would still be sticking to his mission and would drive Saruman away or even kill him. 

Click to expand...

I have seen no proof of Alatars specific mission. 
I think that Saruman was more than capable of despatching other Istari, whether he was good or evil. Gandalf was no match for him and was imprisonned at Orthanc.*


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## Elfarmari (Apr 7, 2002)

while I do not have any deep knowledge on this topic, IMHO the Istari were not 'restricted' in their powers, they were only forbidden. Gandalf fought and defeated a Balrog, also a Maia. Even though this resulted in his own 'death,' I think Gandalf must have used his power as a Maia to destroy the Balrog. Again IMHO, if Gandalf could kill (is that the right word??) a nother Maia, Saruman might have been able to kill other Istari. I've always thought that the two Blue Wizards abadoned their missions and either were in league with Sauron, or started 'magic' traditions, as is mentioned somewhere by Tolkien.


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## Mormegil (Apr 7, 2002)

Elfarmari, you have brought up a good point which I forgot to use in my argument.

Ulairi, if the Istari were Physically limited in their powers by the Valar, then how did Gandalf defeat the Balrog. A maia with no such restrictions placed upon him. Gandalf must have used his full might and powers as a Maia in order to defeat the Balrog. How would he have done this if his powers had been specifically limited by the Valar?


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## Úlairi (Apr 8, 2002)

If you want proof, read "The Peoples of Middle-earth", that is where I have derived all my 'proof' from. However, I do not have the book here seeing as it belongs to the library and has a waitng list of around 100 so I cannot quote directly from it. In no way am I backing out of this argument Mormegil, because I know I am right, and when I am right I never back out of anything. It is unfortunate that the book is not in my possession and therefore the proof that I need cannot be provided. If anyone does have a copy of the book, read the section on the Blue Wizards and quote directly from it. It would be of much help to both I and Mormegil. Thankyou, and Mormegil, this argument shall be continued.


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## Mormegil (Apr 8, 2002)

Ulairi
I have 'The peoples of Middle Earth' and will start reading relevant sections right now. I will report back with my findings.

Anyway, I'm glad you are not backing out. This has been an interesting debate/argument.


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## Úlairi (Apr 8, 2002)

The common thing between me and Harad is that we never give up, especially an argument. You will find a whole lot of things supporting my claims in there, but I am sorry because I have to go and I must agree that this has been an interesting debate/argument. Am looking forward to your reply!


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## Mormegil (Apr 8, 2002)

Ulairi,
I have looked through ‘The Peoples of Middle Earth’ and can find only one passage where Morinehtar and Romestamo, (Alatar and Pallando) are named and have a description of what they did.
I will quote the passage in full…..

“The ‘other two’ came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age. Glorfindel was sent to aid Elrond and was (though not yet said) pre-eminent in the war in Eriador. But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinehtar and Romestamo. Darkness-slayer and East-helper. Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion … and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause [?dissension and disarray] among the dark East … They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East … who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have … outnumbered the West.”
(The Peoples of Middle Earth, Last Writings, The Five Wizards)

This is the only specific reference to the Blue wizards in the book. It neither says that The Istari were physically restricted in their powers by the Valar, nor does it say that Alatar was allowed to display his powers more openly than the other Istari.

So I think that means unless you can come up with more supposed ‘proof’, I can claim victory in this argument.

Retaliate at your peril, I cannot be beaten in arguments. For I am invincible. (LOL)


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## Úlairi (Apr 8, 2002)

Mormegil, I have never lost an argument on this forum since Harad left so I will never give up for I am invincible at arguments also. I will be back with some new evidence. I can argue the blood out of a stone!


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## Elfarmari (Apr 8, 2002)

Ulairi: I am curious about how you think Gandalf was able to defeat the Balrog in Moria, if Gandalf's powers were restricted. As far as I know, it is never said how powerful Balrogs originally were as maia, but I am sure they would be hard to defeat with restrictions.


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## Mormegil (Apr 8, 2002)

Bring it on! I can shoot down any argument you throw at me.


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## Úlairi (Apr 9, 2002)

Perhaps in this case because the evidence I claim to have found somewhere exists but is hard to find, making my argument much more harder to win then yours. But in any other case where the evidence presents itself I would not find it hard to beat you Mormegil!


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## Úlairi (Apr 9, 2002)

I'm so sorry Mormegil, but I win. You murdered yourself and I mean no offence by that. You claim that it was a possibility that Saruman killed them when Tolkien specifically says, as you have quoted:



> "They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East."



They existed in the Third Age, in which LotR took place, and Saruman stopped 'visiting the East' when Saruman began the search for the Ring which was not too far into the Third Age where as Tolkien makes the general comment: "The Third Age", not "5 years into the Third Age", not "A century into the Third Age", but, "The Third Age", so, obviously Saruman did not kill them as they were still existenet in (dare I quote it again): "The Third Age".

Sorry Morm!


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## Mormegil (Apr 9, 2002)

Ulairi,
You do not win. Seeing as we are arguing over the fact that; 1) You think the Istari were physically limited in their powers, and 2) You think Alatar was allowed to display his powers more openly than the other Istari.
You have proved neither point.

The point you have proved is that it is unlikely that the Blue wizards were destroyed/killed by Saruman. Which, if you look back at this thread, I agreed with a long time ago. I also said that I did not believe that they were destroyed by Saruman, but I thought that it could be a possibility.

As for that quote.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East." 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"They must" sounds like a presumption to me. As if the writer doesn't know, but is making an educated guess. This doesn't prove that anything I have stated is wrong.
The Third Age was 3018 years long.LOTR didn't take place until 3001. I think that is far enough into the Age to make a general statement of 'The Third Age. Saruman did not settle at Isengard until TA2759. This gives Saruman 2759 years in the Third Age to travel into the East and despatch the Blue Wizards. For example, If Saruman had traveled into the East and destroyed them in TA2700, they would have lived for 89% of the Third Age. Which more than qualifies a general 'Third Age' comment.

I am not arguing that the Blue Wizards did nothing. I am just saying it is a possibility that Saruman destroyed them.
You need to back up your comments about Istari powers being physically limited by the Valar, and your comment that Alatar was allowed to more openly display his powers than the other Istari.

Sorry Ulairi!


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## Úlairi (Apr 9, 2002)

Well done Mormegil, very good (applauds). I did not have reference to the dates so I made a presumption. However, the argument is still not over. Tolkien made the general statement that the Ithryn Luin had an effect on the Third Age, and yes I agree that is was *possible* that Saruman destroyed them during this time, but this time, I'm the one who wants to see the proof. Is there any proof that Saruman had the power to destroy two of his own order? I think not. The concept of two Maia against one, well the outcome is obvious, Saruman may kill one but not the both of them. I will abandon both points as to the power of Alatar and the displaying of Maiar power. I know there is a reference somewhere, but I cannot find it, so I will abandon it. However, my main argument is now as to how could one Maia destroy two. If you can give me sufficient evidence (of which I know there isn't any) as two where one Maia could defeat two then I will believe you and you will win possibly the greatest argument I have ever had on this forum. If not, my argument still stands and it is probable that I will prove the victor. We both are proud and relentless, and those qualities are the crucial factors of a great argument, and we both have it. I take my hat off to you Mormegil, but you have not won the argument, yet.


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## Úlairi (Apr 9, 2002)

Sorry Mormegil!


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## Lord Melkor (Apr 9, 2002)

Well, I think Eonwe would have been a match for two Balrogs.


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## Mormegil (Apr 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *I agree that is was possible that Saruman destroyed them during this time,*


See, I knew you would have to accept it as a possiblity



> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *Is there any proof that Saruman had the power to destroy two of his own order? I think not. The concept of two Maia against one, well the outcome is obvious, Saruman may kill one but not the both of them. *


You know as well as I do that there is no proof that Saruman could take on two Istari at the same time and destroy them both. Indeed this was not what I was arguing.I never said that he could have taken them both on at the same time. I believe that if he had then he would have been easily defeated.
You have assumed that Alatar and Pallando stayed together after journeying East. I realise that the name 'East Helper' is misleading, who is he helping? But I am pretty sure Alatar and Pallando weren't handcuffed together 24 hours a day.
Anyway, my possibility is that Saruman took them both on and destroyed them at different times. This would be possible, since he was the "greatest" of their order. And seeing how you have 'abandonned' your 'Alatar has stronger powers' theory then you must admit that Saruman was capable of defeating both of them in 1 vs 1 fights. Even more so if he caught them by suprise after feigning friendship, like he did with Gandalf.



> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *I will abandon both points as to the power of Alatar and the displaying of Maiar power. I know there is a reference somewhere, but I cannot find it, so I will abandon it.*


I knew you would. There is no evidence anywhere to back either of these theories up.



> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *However, my main argument is now as to how could one Maia destroy two. If you can give me sufficient evidence (of which I know there isn't any) as two where one Maia could defeat two then I will believe you and you will win possibly the greatest argument I have ever had on this forum. If not, my argument still stands and it is probable that I will prove the victor. .*


I never stated that Saruman could defaet both at the same time. That would be stupid. Of course 1 Istar couldn't take on 2 others at the same time and defeat both.



> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *We both are proud and relentless, and those qualities are the crucial factors of a great argument, and we both have it. I take my hat off to you Mormegil, but you have not won the argument, yet. *


Ditto.

So now you must admit that my theory of Saruman destroying the Blue Wizards is at least a small possibility.


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## Rangerdave (Apr 10, 2002)

*Killing a wizard*

The Istari were wrapped in fleash and made to suffer all the hurts and injuries there in.
Saruman would have a hard time violently killing even one of his fellow wizards, but there is more than one way to kill.
The blue wizards, Saruman or even Gandalf(Grey) could be eliminated by deceit and villainry. Poison is a very real option here.

Just my two cents
RD


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## Úlairi (Apr 10, 2002)

Well Mormegil, I guess you are expecting me to fight back, and I will. But before I do, we both must agree that *now* we agree more then we have to argue about. Tolkien stated that their missions were suggestive of their names [Morinehtar (darkness-slayer, Alatar) and Romestamo (East-Helper, Pallando)].



> I realise that the name 'East Helper' is misleading, who is he helping?



Romestamo was to bring help to those in the East who had rejected Melkor-worship, as the name suggests. I did make the assumption as to them staying together which was false, but their first mission was to seek out Sauron's hiding so they must have stayed together for a long period of time, if they separated at all. 



> But I am pretty sure Alatar and Pallando weren't handcuffed together 24 hours a day.



You cannot, as I have in the past, make those assumptions either. There is no evidence to say that they weren't so you cannot use that to help you argument as their is no evidence. We must stick to the facts.



> Alright, here is what the *true* evidence is:



1. Saruman was the 'greatest of the Istari' (this point is undisputed).

2. According to number one therefore Saruman had the power to destroy them, not both at the same time but one on one most definitely.

3. Saruman often journeyed into the East before he settled in Isengard.

4. The Ithryn Luin had a major effect on *the history of the Second and the Third Age*.

5. Morinehtar and Romestamo are suggestive of the Ithryn Luin's missions.

6. Each of the Istari had a different individual mission but their main mission was to help the peoples of ME to counter Sauron.

There is more evidence but it is of no avail to either you Mormegil, or I. So, you cannot *presume* that the Ithryn Luin *weren't* together even though it is a possibilty. If the names of the Ithryn Luin [*especially Morinehtar (darkness-slayer)*), were suggestive of their missions then Alatar's specific mission as I have stated before is to drive away dark powers. We both know that they had different individual missions and in Alatar's case, he destroyed evil for a living. I am not saying that Alatar was more powerful than Saruman, I know that he isn't, what I *am* sayong is that because of his mission, Alatar *may* have had the advantage over Saruman because of what the Valar had bestown upon him, to drive away evil, and conclusive of this Saruman was evil. So *perhaps* Alatar *may* have overcome Saruman. I am not saying that he could, what I am saying is that he *may*.


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## Úlairi (Apr 12, 2002)

Sorry Mormegil!


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## Mormegil (Apr 12, 2002)

What do you mean, 'Sorry Mormegil!'

How impatiant you are. I will respond, and respond well to your last post.
I have been busy at work for the past few days and have lacked the time, and the energy to respond.

Stay tuned for a remarkable response.


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## Úlairi (Apr 12, 2002)

Sorry seems to be a thing between us Mornmegil so do not take offence, I quite admire you, no one has stood up to me this much since Harad left and that deserves admiration. I posted a remarkable reply and as always I am expecting one from you, as you and I seem to be great debaters. Personally, I think that you, Greenwood and I should have a forum to ourselves where we can fight it out and I apologise, I didn't take into consideration your work load.

I am expecting a remarkable post from you Mormegil.

Am looking forward to it.

Ulairi.

P.S. I hold you in very high regard and I would definitely not put you down as I believe you are my Tolkien intellectual match!


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## Mormegil (Apr 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> * we both must agree that now we agree more then we have to argue about. Tolkien stated that their missions were suggestive of their names [Morinehtar (darkness-slayer, Alatar) and Romestamo (East-Helper, Pallando)].*


I do agree that we agree on most things. Because they are factual and cannot be argued over. We are arguing over things that are not facts, but might be possibilities.
As for the Names of the Blue Wizards being suggestive of their missions. I agree that these were their missions. But there is no proof that they achieved their goals and completed their missions. Other than the "they must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East." quote. Which as I have already said, sounds like a presumption by the author to me. 
Also, JRRT wrote this in his letters;
'What success they [Alatar and Pallando] had I do not know; but I fear they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were the founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.' (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, No. 211). 
Sounds like even JRRT doesn't know what they acheived to me.




> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> * Romestamo was to bring help to those in the East who had rejected Melkor-worship, as the name suggests. I did make the assumption as to them staying together which was false, but their first mission was to seek out Sauron's hiding so they must have stayed together for a long period of time, if they separated at all.*


I do not doubt that they stayed together for a long time, but there is no proof that it is so. My entire argument is based on possibility, a possibility that you said was not possible. You must agree that it is possible that the Blue Wizards did not spend 100% of their time in the East together.





> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> * You cannot, as I have in the past, make those assumptions either. There is no evidence to say that they weren't so you cannot use that to help you argument as their is no evidence. We must stick to the facts.*


I do not have to stick to the facts. I said at the beginning of this argument that it was a possibility. If my argument had been based on facts then I would have called my argument 'The truth'.
You are the one who said that it was impossible that Saruman killed the two Blue Wizards. Which was not backed up with facts. You stated something as 'The Truth', yet cannot prove my possibility is wrong.





> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> * 1. Saruman was the 'greatest of the Istari' (this point is undisputed).
> 
> 2. According to number one therefore Saruman had the power to destroy them, not both at the same time but one on one most definitely.
> ...


1. Agreed

2. Agreed, not both at once, but one vs. one.

3. Agreed.

4. No, I disagree. Since, (from appendix B of LOTR, The Third Age); "When maybe a ythousand years had passed, and the first shadow had fallen on Greenwood the Great, the Istari or Wizards appeared in Middle Earth."
If the Istari appeared approximately 1000 years into the Third Age, then how did they have a 'major effect on the history of the Second Age'?? This quote puts a dent in your argument, and obviously proves it wrong, as my quote was printed by JRRT in LOTR, and was obviously intended as truth. Your quote is from a post-humusly printed book, which wasn't personally approved by JRRT. So, in this case, my quote is 'The Truth'

5. Yes, agreed. But their names do not prove that they succeeded in their missions.

6. Agreed. 



> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> * There is more evidence but it is of no avail to either you Mormegil, or I. So, you cannot presume that the Ithryn Luin weren't together even though it is a possibilty. *


*
There is more evidence, (read above), and it helps my argument more than yours.
I did not 'presume' that the Blue Wizards did not stay together. I just said it was unlikely that they spent 100% of the time together.
As you agree that it is a possibility, then you accept my argument on that particular matter.




Originally posted by Ulairi 
 If the names of the Ithryn Luin [especially Morinehtar (darkness-slayer)), were suggestive of their missions then Alatar's specific mission as I have stated before is to drive away dark powers. We both know that they had different individual missions and in Alatar's case, he destroyed evil for a living. I am not saying that Alatar was more powerful than Saruman, I know that he isn't, what I am sayong is that because of his mission, Alatar may have had the advantage over Saruman because of what the Valar had bestown upon him, to drive away evil, and conclusive of this Saruman was evil. So perhaps Alatar may have overcome Saruman. I am not saying that he could, what I am saying is that he may. 

Click to expand...

I can understand your argument. But we are not talking about open 1 vs. 1 combat here. Saruman would have come to the Blue Wizards and they would have greeted him as a friend. Expecting no evil from him. So he would have had the time to wait and catch them at the weakest. Added to the fact that he was the most powerful Istari, it is quite possible for him to have destroyed the Blue Wizards.

Ulairi, you must agree by now that it is not impossible for Saruman to have destroyed the Blue Wizards. And you have admitted it to a degree. If you admit it was a possibility then my argument is proved right.
If however you continue to claim it is impossible for Saruman to have destroyed them, I will expect to see some concrete proof as to why this is so.

Thankyou.
(A remarkable post )*


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## Úlairi (Apr 14, 2002)

Mormegil, we have argued about this for a long time, but I will not call it an argument seeing as your posts were assuming that it is a possibility, which I agree with. You also must agree that it was definitely possible that Saruman did not kill them either. So no one lost nor won this so-called argument as it was based entirely upon possibility and probability. Both sides arguments are valid, and we have both presented proof to show that there was and was no possibility that Saruman killed them. You have provided proof to present your case as have I (yet not as much as you have). I still regard myself as an expert on this field, but now I know that I have a definite equal in this area of Tolkien's complex world also. I take my hat off to you Mormegil, I do now believe that Saruman may have killed them. I started to believe when you posted those dates, in which I had been too lasy to look up, which is why my argument wasn't strong in some areas. If I had, the outcome would still be the same as the evidence would not change because the author wrote it himself. I was on the wrong side of the argument, which I despise sometimes. I could say that I was the defence and you were the prosecution as you had the proof to support your argument, and I had the same proof that you had, but it did not help my argument because, as I have said, I was on the wrong side of the argument. If it had been vice versa and I had bothered to look up the proof properly than it would have been me who would have won this argument, because the evidence speaks for itself. Seeing as I was on the defence, I should have looked it up and I would have submitted it myself, saying that you were right, but I fought on because I thoroughly enjoyed the argument and one of the reasons I didn't go searching for evidence was because I knew the evidence was there, but I knew it didn't help my argument, so I chose to leave it. Instead, I went on a search for evidence to support my case but there wasn't much, and I am proud to say that I managed to keep the argument going quite well, despite the fact that I had not much evidence to support my argument. Therefore I conclude that Saruman killing the Ithryn Luin was a definite possibility, but that is all it was, a possibility which you continually enforced upon me, which I continually ignored. There is still a definite possibility that Saruman did not kill them, but there is no evidence to say that Saruman killed them and Saruman did not kill them, so I guess we'll never know. Once again Mormegil, well done, I was stubborn but that did not daunt you, you knew that Saruman killing the Ithryn Luin was a definite possibility and you stuck to it. I submit and I congratulate you! That is the first argument that I have lost since Harad left!


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## Úlairi (Apr 14, 2002)

Oh, and Mormegil, there is a conflict in Tolkien's work regarding when the Ithryn Luin came. In PoME it says somewhere that they came around the same time as Glorfindel in the Second Age, but in UT it says that Saruman came first so there was no dent in my argument, there was just a conflict in evidence.


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## Mormegil (Apr 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *Oh, and Mormegil, there is a conflict in Tolkien's work regarding when the Ithryn Luin came. In PoME it says somewhere that they came around the same time as Glorfindel in the Second Age, but in UT it says that Saruman came first so there was no dent in my argument, there was just a conflict in evidence. *


Agreed, but PoME was published after JRRT's death. So I would say that the dates in ROTK appendix B are more reliable.

Anyway this has been a good debate. With quality posts and good evidence. And I am glad that you now see Saruman destroying the Blue Wizards as a possibility. 
As I have said, I do not believe that he did, but I see it as a possibility.

So it looks like this debate is over. Shall we leave this thread dormant untill you can provide proofs of your belief that the Istari were physically limited in their powers by the Valar, and that Alatar was allowed to display his power more openly? 
I wait with baited breath for the proof.

Once again, congratulations on a graet debate. You have been a worthy opponent.


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## Beleg Strongbow (Apr 14, 2002)

Anyway this has been a good debate. With quality posts and good evidence. And I am glad that you now see Saruman destroying the Blue Wizards as a possibility. 
As I have said, I do not believe that he did, but I see it as a possibility.





Yes it could be a possibility but i'd think it would most likely be sauron that killed them. They were out the back trying to get his allies to trun o him. Once sauron found this out he would have been furious. It would be a lot harder to fight without the haradrim and southrons. They were quality fighters. I don't think sauron would have just sat back and watch his armies fight over what they want. Mayb saruman killed them junder saurons orders. But i think not as u say "they did greaT things in the 3rd age" i doubt he woulod hardly have left isengard during the 3rd age let alone go down to harad or wherever and kill the wizards. I think sauron killed them, or if not one of his dreadful servants, under his orders.


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## Úlairi (Apr 14, 2002)

Thankyou Beleg, however, we weren't debating different *opinions*, we were just debating *one opinion*, Mormegil's.


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## Beleg Strongbow (Apr 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *Thankyou Beleg, however, we weren't debating different opinions, we were just debating one opinion, Mormegil's. *





Yes i doubt saruman did it though. Not in the 3rd age anyway. He wouldn't leave isengard at all.


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## Úlairi (Apr 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Mormegil _
> *
> Agreed, but PoME was published after JRRT's death. So I would say that the dates in ROTK appendix B are more reliable.
> 
> ...



Yes, you also. I will continue to look for it but I seriously doubt it is there Mormegil. May I put you on my buddy list?


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## Ancalagon (Apr 15, 2002)

It is certainly possible that Saruman was responsible for the demise of the Blue Wizards as has been argued Mormegil. However I wonder why, if Saruman was responsible for their demise, were they did not return to Middle-Earth as Gandalf did following his battle with the Balrog of Moria?

Would not Manwe have returned them to complete their mission if they had been deceived or murdered by Saruman?


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## Mormegil (Apr 15, 2002)

Ulairi. Of course you may add me to your Buddy List.

Anc, that is a good point, it was also raised by someone (sorry, I forget who) on the 'Guild of Scholars' thread. 
My opinion on that point is that 1) They might not have wanted to return to Middle Earth, or 2)They did not succeed in their mission sufficiently enough for Manwe to see fit to return them to ME.


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## Telchar (Apr 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Mormegil _
> *
> Agreed, but PoME was published after JRRT's death. So I would say that the dates in ROTK appendix B are more reliable.*


Not entirely true..
The text written about the Wizards in PoME, p 384-5 is written more recently than the apentix that you find in LoTR,the same I belive goes for sevral other chapters in HoME, Myths transformed in Morgoths Ring would be another example. Just because it wasn't published while Tolkien lived it still represent his thought's about the subject, and to be exact, his last thoughts about the subject.


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## Mormegil (Apr 15, 2002)

OK, I stand corrected. 
But my 'Saruman destroying the Blue wizards' theory is still a possibility even taking into account the quote from PoME.


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## pohuist (Apr 18, 2002)

It is, of course, possible. But I think this possibility becomed REALLY slim if you consider: Saruman had no reason to. The Blue Wizards worked to diminish Sauron's power. That was helpful to Saruman as he tried to recover the Ring and become the Dark Lord himself. The weaker Sauron would be, the easier it would be for Saruman to overthrow him. The weaker Sauron be, the less chance there is that Sauron's servants would find the Ring. Saruman would have done in the Blue Wizards afterwards, but nor before, at least not before he acquired the Ring.


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## Úlairi (Apr 18, 2002)

Those are some statements that I made quite a way back on the thread somewhere pohuist. The chances of Saruman destroying the Ithryn Luin are slim, but they are not impossible.



> _Originally posted by pohuist_
> *The Blue Wizards worked to diminish Sauron's power. That was helpful to Saruman as he tried to recover the Ring and become the Dark Lord himself.*



I disagree, however, it is a good point. Once the Ithryn Luin discovered that Saruman was a traitor, I believe that they would have allied themselves with Gandalf, and Saruman would have a huge problem on his hands, more than just trying to circumvent Sauron, he would not have just one wizard rebelling against him, he would have three, which, as I have said, would be a problem for him. I believe that killing the Ithryn Luin would be a way for Saruman to grow in power as he would only have Gandalf against him, instead of all three.


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## Mormegil (Apr 19, 2002)

Exactly. 
It depends at what point Saruman went 'bad'. If he went bad early on, then taking the Blue Wizards out of the equation early on works to his advantage.


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## pohuist (Apr 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *
> 
> I disagree, however, it is a good point. Once the Ithryn Luin discovered that Saruman was a traitor, I believe that they would have allied themselves with Gandalf, and Saruman would have a huge problem on his hands, more than just trying to circumvent Sauron, he would not have just one wizard rebelling against him, he would have three, which, as I have said, would be a problem for him. I believe that killing the Ithryn Luin would be a way for Saruman to grow in power as he would only have Gandalf against him, instead of all three. *



And how you suppose they were to discover that. The only reason Gandalf discovered (much much later) is because Saruman thought he would be able to wrestle whereabouts of the Ring from him and invited him to alliance. (That was a miscalculation) Even Gandalf (the wisest of all) didn't have a clue until then.


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## Úlairi (Apr 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by pohuist _
> *
> 
> And how you suppose they were to discover that. The only reason Gandalf discovered (much much later) is because Saruman thought he would be able to wrestle whereabouts of the Ring from him and invited him to alliance. (That was a miscalculation) Even Gandalf (the wisest of all) didn't have a clue until then. *



The Istari were all Maiar, I am sure that there was some way that they could communicate pohuist. Gandalf would tell them and then they would come and help Gandalf. The logic is simple. Saruman would have an extremely large problem on his hands. Mormegil, why are you down to 28 posts and why did you only register on April. I seem to remeber you having around 600 or so posts. What happened?


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## Mormegil (Apr 20, 2002)

My old account was wiped when the Forum had all those server problems this week. All my old posts are still about, (such as the ones on this thread), but there is no user profile behind them and I can't access that account. (If you look at my old account posts, it says I registered in 1970! ). 
So I had to re-register and start again. Which pretty much sucks.
I don't know what happened to my old account, I have asked RW and the other Mods and they don't know either. I think WM is the only person who can tell me what happened.


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## Úlairi (Apr 21, 2002)

That's a real pity Mormegil!


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## Beleg Strongbow (Apr 21, 2002)

Yes it is. I have never heard of that happening b4. Oh well mayb wb knows what happened and he could help u out.


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## Úlairi (Apr 21, 2002)

Can the WB give it back to you somehow?


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## Mormegil (Apr 21, 2002)

I don't know. I think RW has informed WM, but I have heard nothing so far. 
However I don't think I will get my old account back. But I don't mind as long as people can still read my old posts.


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## pohuist (Apr 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *
> 
> The Istari were all Maiar, I am sure that there was some way that they could communicate pohuist. Gandalf would tell them and then they would come and help Gandalf. The logic is simple. Saruman would have an extremely large problem on his hands. *



Oh, come on. If they had a way to communicate why did they have to meet in person? (White Council, Gandalf going to Orthanc). The only way to communicate long-distance was via Palantir. As far as helping Gandalf, Istari could not use their power, remember.

The essense of the argument, however, is that according to your theory, Saruman [might have] killed the Blue Wizards long before the War of the Ring started. I simply submit that at that time it made no sense for him to do so b/c of the reasons I originally stated.


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## Úlairi (Apr 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by pohuist _
> *
> 
> Oh, come on. If they had a way to communicate why did they have to meet in person? (White Council, Gandalf going to Orthanc). The only way to communicate long-distance was via Palantir. As far as helping Gandalf, Istari could not use their power, remember.
> ...



Yes, pohuist I agree with you. I am unsure if all the Istari could actually share a telepathic bond with one another. The only way I could answer to that one is if Gandalf went into the East himself and found the Blue Wizards, which is a possibility.


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## Lúthien Séregon (Sep 29, 2003)

There seem to be a lot of threads being resurrected recently...upon looking back through the pages, I found this thread interesting, so I've decided to bring it back from the dead...


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## Barliman Butterbur (Nov 17, 2004)

pohuist said:


> ..Saruman [might have] killed the Blue Wizards long before the War of the Ring started.



I solved it. Alatar and Pallando went into the farthest border of the East, found the Lost Road that leads to Earth, degenerated into the Blues Brothers and made movies!

Barley


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## JPMaximilian (Nov 17, 2004)

Úlairi said:


> Their mission was to help the peoples of the East and also search for the whereabouts of Sauron after his fall in the S.A.



What is "S.A." an abbreviation for?


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## Arvedui (Nov 18, 2004)

Second Age.

And Barley, you are the second member to express that theory (RD is persistant that their true names are Jake and Elwood). Maybe there is some truth in this after all.


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## Astaldo (Nov 18, 2004)

I like the Blues Broothers Theory.


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## Walter (Nov 18, 2004)

> I have my own theory about the IthrynLuin, and their sudden "disappearing" (which - however - cannot be considered Canon, though):
> 
> Well, the brothers got even bluer than blue - hence they finally clad in black - and eventually decided to form a blues-band. So, they must be still somewhere, travelling through the country, playing blues. I mean - after all they are immortal spirits (hence also the term: "spirit of the blues")!
> 
> And - according to this little theory of mine - also the everlasting debate about their names can finally be resolved! Their names are not Alatar and Pallando or Morinehtar and Rómestámo. No! Their names - clearly - are "Jake and Elwood"!


When I issued this "theory" early in 2003, I had all but forgotten how it it had been "sparked" by a remark of RD and then sort of developed in this thread


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## alcesta (Nov 18, 2004)

I like the idea, too. 

Btw, excellent discussion. 



A Ranger said:


> The Istari were deffinetly limited in using their powers because they were made into physical beings and while it may be Saruman was less powerful then the Blue wizards on his own, your forgeting that saruman crafted a ring for himself. It may not have been an extremly powerful ring but it unlocked his inner power, that was still inside him, so that he may have been able to defeat them. I don't personally believe this it is just possible


That's what I've been looking for. What about this ring Saruman made? He claims to be a Ring-maker, but there's no mention whatever of this ring later, nor I could find it in other Tolkien's works. It seems strange Tolkien says no more of it even when Gandalf meets Saruman again, and expels him from the Order. As if he forgot it altogether. Could you tell me more about it, or give me a link, if this point has already been discussed?


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## Barliman Butterbur (Nov 18, 2004)

Arvedui said:


> ...Barley, you are the second member to express that theory (RD is persistant that their true names are Jake and Elwood). Maybe there is some truth in this after all.



Great minds run in the same track...

Barley


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