# Who fought the most in the wars of beleriand and jewels?



## Turin_Turambar (Nov 23, 2022)

Who do you think can be the character who has fought the most in wars of beleriand and wars of jewels, including all wars? I think it's celebrimbor. If true, it says on lotr.fandom that he fought all in these wars and battles.
Dagor-nuin-Giliath
Dagor Aglareb
Dagor Bragollach
Nirnaeth Arnoediad
Sack of Nargothrond
Fall of Gondolin
War of Wrath


----------



## Tar-Elenion (Nov 23, 2022)

LotR Fandom is confusing variant Celebrimbors. The Celebrimbor of Gondolin is not Celebrimbor son of Curufin.


----------



## Turin_Turambar (Nov 23, 2022)

Tar-Elenion said:


> LotR Fandom is confusing variant Celebrimbors. The Celebrimbor of Gondolin is not Celebrimbor son of Curufin.


Celebrimbor after fighting in the sack of the nargothrond he went to the gondolin. I even know that he is making special jewels for turgon. maybe this is be wrong. I am not entirely sure. So celebrimbor who survived the fall of the gondolin is actually celebrimbor, the son of curufin.


----------



## Elbereth Vala Varda (Nov 23, 2022)

Perhaps, Celebrimbor?


----------



## Elthir (Nov 23, 2022)

Ecthelion of the Fountain said:


> (. . .) maybe this is be wrong. I am not entirely sure. So celebrimbor who survived the fall of the gondolin is actually celebrimbor, the son of curufin.



*Tar-Elenion* is correct in my opinion. Anyway, *my* brief list of Tolkien's Celebrimborian ideas goes like this:

*A)* Celebrimbor: jewel smith of Gondolin -- _discarded idea, Celebrimbor becomes_ . . .

*B) Celebrimbor: descendant of Feanor -- published by JRRT, Second Edition Lord of the Rings.*

*C)* Celebrimbor: Sindarin Elf claiming descent from Daeron -- Tolkien appears to have forgotten what he'd already published.

*D)* Celebrimbor: Telerin Elf of Aman -- Tolkien (again) appears to have forgotten what he'd already published.

Christopher Tolkien thinks that if JRRT had remembered *B* -- what Tolkien himself had _published_ -- that his father _would have felt bound by it_.* I agree with CJRT.* 

_Whatever battles he may or may not have fought in during the First Age aside_, Celebrimbor does not appear in Tolkien's _Quenta Silmarillion_. Christopher Tolkien edited a mention of him in Nargothrond, based on a note written by JRRT which explained (in part) that while in Nargothrond as a refugee, Celebrimbor grew to love Finrod, and he was aghast at the behaviour of Curufin, and would not go with him -- and that he (Celebrimbor) later became a great friend of Celeborn and Nerwende Artanis.

🐾


----------



## Turin_Turambar (Nov 23, 2022)

Elthir said:


> *Tar-Elenion* is correct in my opinion. Anyway, *my* brief list of Tolkien's Celebrimborian ideas goes like this:
> 
> *A)* Celebrimbor: jewel smith of Gondolin -- _discarded idea, Celebrimbor becomes_ . . .
> 
> ...


The fact that celebrimbor is not mentioned in the quenta silmarillion does not mean that he did not fight. In the 12-volume History of Middle-earth book series, it is written, although not in detail, what the celebrimbor lived and what he did in the first and second ages. For example, it is stated that he fought with his father in the war of dagor bragollach and they had to retreat during the war and take shelter in the nargothrond.


----------



## Elthir (Nov 24, 2022)

Ecthelion of the Fountain said:


> The fact that celebrimbor is not mentioned in the quenta silmarillion does not mean that he did not fight.



I didn't say otherwise. I said this: "_Whatever battles he may or may not have fought in during the First Age aside_, Celebrimbor does not appear in Tolkien's _Quenta Silmarillion_.




Ecthelion of the Fountain said:


> In the 12-volume History of Middle-earth book series, it is written, although not in detail, what the celebrimbor lived and what he did in the first and second ages.



Celebrimbor appears relatively briefly in the twelve volumes series as the son of Curufin, because,
as I said, Tolkien didn't imagine him as being Curufin's son until later-ish -- and he published the "descendant of Feanor" detail in the Second Edition [1960s] of _The Lord of the Rings._

And after that [later 1960s, or even later] again as I noted, Tolkien re-imagined Celebrimbor as a Sindarin Elf rather, or a Telerin Elf as well, because he'd apparently forgotten what he'd published.

So, any amount of history or background in these late texts, is not as Curufin's son.



Ecthelion of the Fountain said:


> For example, *it is stated that he fought with his father* in the war of dagor bragollach and they had to retreat during the war and take shelter in the nargothrond.



This is not stated in [the twelve volume] _The History of Middle-Earth_ series.

What Tolkien stated, as I already posted above, was that Celebrimbor *was a refugee* in Nargothrond, and thus, I guess it's certain people who make web sites who are taking that much to mean that he_ "fought"_ with his father at this war . . .

. . . did he fight? I'm not arguing either way.

Celebrimbor was edited into _Quenta Silmarillion_ by Christopher Tolkien, based on his father's note. Christopher Tolkien's edit reads: *"In that time Celebrimbor the son of Curufin repudiated the deeds of his father, and remained in Nargothrond; yet Huan followed still the horse of Celegorm his master." *Christopher Tolkien, _Of Beren And Lúthien_, Quenta Silmarillion, 1977

I'm just agreeing with* Tar-Elenion*, and reporting what Tolkien actually wrote versus what you seem to have read on line.

Decide as you like


----------



## Turin_Turambar (Nov 24, 2022)

Elthir said:


> I didn't say otherwise. I said this: "_Whatever battles he may or may not have fought in during the First Age aside_, Celebrimbor does not appear in Tolkien's _Quenta Silmarillion_.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


what you says is true but maybe you are wrong about one thing. It is an event that is told and shown even in the videos of middle earth channels on youtube where celebrimbor was found with his father in dagor bragollach and escaped from the war and took shelter in nargothrond. I mean, whether it is in the 12-volume middle-earth series or not, I think it is most likely what Tolkien thought and wrote.


----------



## Elthir (Nov 24, 2022)

Ecthelion of the Fountain said:


> what you says is true but maybe you are wrong about one thing. (. . .)



Why would I be wrong? I just posted (see above): " . . . did he fight? *I'm not arguing either way."*


----------



## Tar-Elenion (Nov 24, 2022)

Ecthelion of the Fountain said:


> Celebrimbor after fighting in the sack of the nargothrond he went to the gondolin. I even know that he is making special jewels for turgon. maybe this is be wrong. I am not entirely sure. So celebrimbor who survived the fall of the gondolin is actually celebrimbor, the son of curufin.


ca. 1955 Tolkien imagined Celebrimbor as a jewel-smith of Gondolin, with no relation to Feanor. Later (ca. 1965), when revising LotR for republication, he wrote Celebrimbor as a decendent of Feanor and modified the (ca. 1955) Galadriel and Celeborn text contained in UT to reflect this. He did not modify the (pre G&C) Elessar text (also contained in UT) to reflect this change.
Tolkien never says Celebrimbor (son of Curufin) went to Gondolin (nor the Telerin or Sindarin variants of Celebrimbor). Considering that Gondolin, by the time of the Fall of Nargothrond, had isolated itself near completely, it is unlikely that the Feanorean Celebrimbor would have gone there or even known its location.
Note also that the Celebrimbor who seems to have been in love with Galadriel was the early variant Celebrimbor of Gondolin, not her Feanorean cousin (first cousin once removed?).



> It is an event that is told and shown even in the videos of middle earth channels on youtube...


Unless "middle earth channels" can quote Tolkien directly, then what "middle earth channels" say is evidence of nothing other than what "middle earth channels" imagine...

Note: dates from memory (which sometimes fails).

Elthir is correct.


----------



## Turin_Turambar (Nov 24, 2022)

Tar-Elenion said:


> ca. 1955 Tolkien imagined Celebrimbor as a jewel-smith of Gondolin, with no relation to Feanor. Later (ca. 1965), when revising LotR for republication, he wrote Celebrimbor as a decendent of Feanor and modified the (ca. 1955) Galadriel and Celeborn text contained in UT to reflect this. He did not modify the (pre G&C) Elessar text (also contained in UT) to reflect this change.
> Tolkien never says Celebrimbor (son of Curufin) went to Gondolin (nor the Telerin or Sindarin variants of Celebrimbor). Considering that Gondolin, by the time of the Fall of Nargothrond, had isolated itself near completely, it is unlikely that the Feanorean Celebrimbor would have gone there or even known its location.
> Note also that the Celebrimbor who seems to have been in love with Galadriel was the early variant Celebrimbor of Gondolin, not her Feanorean cousin (first cousin once removed?).
> 
> ...


frankly i thinking celebrimbor went to the gondolin after the sack of nargothrond. because not only in middle earth channels, but also in many sites on the internet and on lotr.fandom and even tolkiengateway it is stated that celebrimbor went to the gondolin. I think so many people and web pages can't be wrong.


----------



## Tar-Elenion (Nov 24, 2022)

Ecthelion of the Fountain said:


> frankly i thinking celebrimbor went to the gondolin after the sack of nargothrond. because not only in middle earth channels, but also in many sites on the internet and on lotr.fandom and even tolkiengateway it is stated that celebrimbor went to the gondolin. I think so many people and web pages can't be wrong.


Only what Tolkien said matters, regardless of how many people or web pages say ptherwise.

In the event:
Tolkien Gateway does not state that.
What Tolkien Gateway notes of the Feanorean variant Celebrimbor:
"When Celebrimbor learned the truth of his father and uncle's actions, he was "aghast" and parted ways with them. He was not subject to their exile and did not voluntarily follow them.[1] His whereabouts for the remainder of the First Age are unknown."

In a later section it notes the earlier version of Celebrimbor, that is the Celebrimbor of Gondolin, and says nothing about him being a descendant of Feanor nor coming to Gondolin from Nargothrond.

Lotr.fandom does say that, but Lotr.fandom is just making crap up. Note how lotr,fandom does not cite a source for its claim that:
"He fought in Sack of Nargothrond, and then escaped and traveled to Gondolin."

As I noted in my initial post, the site is confusing variant Celebrimbors.


----------



## Turin_Turambar (Nov 24, 2022)

Tar-Elenion said:


> Only what Tolkien said matters, regardless of how many people or web pages say ptherwise.
> 
> In the event:
> Tolkien Gateway does not state that.
> ...











Lord Of The Rings: 5 Things Only Book Readers Know About Celebrimbor


There's a lot of lore in Tolkien's books that hasn't made it into any screen adaptations, and much of it involves the creator of the Elven rings.




gamerant.com












Rings of Power: Celebrimbor explained


Rings of Power: In the Lord o the Rings TV series finale, Celebrimbor played his biggest role yet. But who is the Elven smith and what happens to him?




www.thedigitalfix.com












Maybe Elves Should Just Stop Forging Things? The Celebrimbor Breakdown


His craftsmanship would forever change the fate of Middle Earth with just a few sparkly rings. Who was Celebrimbor?




www.belloflostsouls.net




It says on these 3 sites that celebrimbor is the grandson of feanor and that he fought and survived in the fall of gondolin.


----------



## Tar-Elenion (Nov 24, 2022)

Ecthelion of the Fountain said:


> Lord Of The Rings: 5 Things Only Book Readers Know About Celebrimbor
> 
> 
> There's a lot of lore in Tolkien's books that hasn't made it into any screen adaptations, and much of it involves the creator of the Elven rings.
> ...


And?
Only what Tolkien said matters, regardless of how many people or web pages say ptherwise.


----------



## Turin_Turambar (Nov 24, 2022)

Tar-Elenion said:


> And?
> Only what Tolkien said matters, regardless of how many people or web pages say ptherwise.


Ok, of course you can think like that. I respect your opinion. But no matter what Tolkien says about a subject about middle earth, some things about middle earth can change with different ideas of other people, despite Tolkien's claim to the contrary, and this change can spread over time and change the main event. that is, non-canon things and ideas replaces canon things and ideas. just like peter jackson changed the hobbit story and like some situations in hobbit movies are supposed canon by people even though they are not canon. This situation does not exist only in middle-earth literature. It is a very common situation in literary works such as Marvel.


----------



## Tar-Elenion (Nov 24, 2022)

No. Only what Tolkien wrote, said or drew is 'canon'. If it is not Tolkien it is not 'canon'. It is not even relevant.


----------



## Elthir (Nov 24, 2022)

Agreed again *Tar-Elenion*.

If certain folks insist on mixing _external_ variations with internal history (or don't know that they are doing this), for myself, I'll never agree that contrary fan opinions (however arrived at) -- no matter how many, or in what medium they are expressed -- "replace" (*!*) Tolkien's work.

Tolkien made art. I follow _his_ art 🐾


----------



## Tar-Elenion (Nov 24, 2022)

Preach.
Hey, you ever see/read Cian around anywhere?


----------



## Elthir (Nov 28, 2022)

Tar-Elenion said:


> Hey, you ever see/read Cian around anywhere?



Given his title ("sylvan madman") I'm guessing he's happily off in the woods somewhere, *Tar-E* 



Ecthelion of the Fountain said:


> (. . .) I respect your [Tar Elenion's] opinion. But no matter what Tolkien says about a subject about middle earth, some things about middle earth can change with different ideas of other people, despite Tolkien's claim to the contrary, and this change can spread over time and change the main event. that is, non-canon things and ideas replaces canon things and ideas.



But if that's your opinion, as it seems, don't you still want, or prefer (prefer over "different ideas of other people, despite Tolkien's claim to the contrary") Tolkien attested material in response to the questions in the various threads you raise?


----------



## Ent (Nov 28, 2022)

Ecthelion of the Fountain said:


> just like peter jackson changed the hobbit story


Ouch.

Peter Jackson changed nothing that is true Tolkien.
Certainly did not, and CAN not, "change the (true) hobbit story."

Peter Jackson inserted Peter Jackson in among Tolkien's works, but nothing of Peter Jackson is Tolkien. It is Peter Jackson.

It may seat things in people's MINDS as being 'what Tolkien said and meant' but that is completely erroneous. Only what Tolkien said, and what he himself said he meant, is what he said, and said he meant.

And thus we have, and will always have, the 'two camps.'
Those who want to know what Tolkien said, and those who want to know what they want to know the way they want to know it.

Each has a perfect right to choose to 'know,' according to the way they choose to choose. And there it is.
We must respect each one's 'right to choose' and not assume the position of the 'final arbiter,' and thus the 'administrator of condemnation' followed by the 'application of justice.'

"Wars have begun that way, Mr. Ambassador" - Character Jeffrey Pelt - _Hunt for Red October_

¯\_|ツ|_/¯


----------



## Turin_Turambar (Nov 28, 2022)

Elthir said:


> Given his title ("sylvan madman") I'm guessing he's happily off in the woods somewhere, *Tar-E*
> 
> 
> 
> But if that's your opinion, as it seems, don't you still want, or prefer (prefer over "different ideas of other people, despite Tolkien's claim to the contrary") Tolkien attested material in response to the questions in the various threads you raise?


Of course, what Tolkien said and how he accepted it is more important to me. but on the issues that Tolkien does not focus on and does not give much detail, both me and other people are trying to reach a conclusion about that subject by reasoning. Just like in the discussion that celebrimbor with a gondolin and celebrimbor, the grandson of feanor, are different or the same person.


----------



## ZehnWaters (Nov 29, 2022)

I'm unsure how much Celebrimbor actually fought in the wars, so Maedhros since he started some of his own fights and the rest all died before the end.


----------



## Ent (Nov 29, 2022)

Who fought the most.
Whose fighting was most effective.
Who killed the most.
Who did the most damage to the enemy.
Who had the biggest weapon. Strongest weapon. Most effective weapon.
Who drank the most swill.

Personally, I'm just glad they all fought, or Middle-earth would be a very different place. 🤪


----------



## Elthir (Nov 29, 2022)

Ecthelion of the Fountain said:


> Of course, what Tolkien said and how he accepted it is more important to me. but on the issues that Tolkien does not focus on and does not give much detail, both me and other people are trying to reach a conclusion about that subject by reasoning. Just like in the discussion that celebrimbor with a gondolin and celebrimbor, the grandson of feanor, are different or the same person.



Very well, but according to my skull-chamber, that's not exactly what I was responding to when you wrote: _" . . . despite Tolkien's claim to the contrary, and this change can spread over time and change the main event. that is, non-canon things and ideas replaces canon things and ideas."_

And to think, I once responded to a post of yours by typing out _every_ reference to Ecthelion in _The_ _History of Middle-Earth_ series (and maybe a little beyond, if I recall correctly). It took a lot of work to 
give you _exactly what JRRT himself wrote_. Do you think I just did that for fun?

 Yes.

It was quite fun actually


----------



## Ent (Nov 29, 2022)

Elthir said:


> Yes.
> 
> It was quite fun actually


👍
I'm always thankful when you come out of your cardboard box in the back room. We always learn things.


----------

