# Nazgul drawn by the ring?



## Mr. Istari (Nov 30, 2007)

Ok so I'm reading through LOTR and I'm a little confused. It says in _A Knife In The Dark_, the 11th chapter in FOTR:


> '...We can feel their presence - it troubled our hearts, as soon as we came here, and before we saw them; they feel our hearts more keenly. Also,' he added, and his voice sank to a whisper, 'the Ring draws them.'


What that means (at least to my ears) is that when the nazgul are near the ring they can sense it and know at least in which direction it is in, which is backed up by the nazgul that Frodo, Sam, and Pippin had almost met along the path soon after leaving Hobbiton. (and other places as well that I cannot think of right now)

What I don't understand is why the nazgul that was talking to the Gaffer right before Frodo set off on his journey didn't sense the ring at all even though Frodo was within hearing range.

Do the nazgul even sense the ring as much as Aragorn says they do?
Maybe Frodo had not had the ring long enough yet for the nazgul to notice its presence?
Maybe I really don't know what I'm talking about and I'm going crazy?
What do you think?


----------



## baragund (Nov 30, 2007)

A couple of things come to mind. 

* Aragorn's may have over stated when he said "the ring draws them". I don't think the ring acts like some kind of homing beacon for the Nazgul. Otherwise, Frodo would have been nabbed many times over on his way to Mt. Doom. Perhaps they can feel the presence of the ring but they can't tell the direction. 

* The Nazgul's powers may be somewhat muted in the more wholesome sections of Middle-earth like The Shire. Kind of like trying to listen for a faint noise while wearing earplugs. Don't forget, they refused to cross the Brandywine even though they were hot on the heels of their quarry.


----------



## Mr. Istari (Dec 3, 2007)

Hmm... Makes sense to me!
But I think the only reason I didn't come up with that myself is that I for some reason found it very hard to believe that Aragorn would overstate something.
Silly me.


----------



## Thorin (Dec 3, 2007)

I would probably have to say that the 'drawing' is relative to how close they are to the ring. Sort of like a homing beacon whose 'rays' occasionally fall on those that are in the right place to recieve it. I don't believe that they knew exactly where it was at all times and it was just a matter of finding it. They still had to search for it however.


Because the Nazgul were sent in the general direction of where the ring was going, they 'tuned' into it (or the ring tuned into them), when they got close enough to sense it's power. Kind of like a dog on a scent. 
The 'scent' is the ring and the closer the Nazgul got to the general area of the ring, the easier it became to tune in to it's whereabouts. 

I don't know, just my speculation.


----------



## Mr. Istari (Dec 3, 2007)

I do agree... But to me that still leaves the question of why didn't the nazgul talking to the Gaffer sense the ring (or at least it didn't seem like it) even though Frodo was within earshot of him.
And now that I have thought about it, even if the evil powers of Mordor were muted a bit in the more wholesome sections of Middle-earth we have to remember that this is THE RULING RING!!! I would imagine that it would imagine that it would probably take some great 'magic' to completely 'silence the ring to the ears of the nazgul'.

Just some of my thoughts.


----------



## baragund (Dec 4, 2007)

I rather shy away from Thorin's "homing beacon" suggestion because, like I said above, Frodo would have been caught many times over if the Nazgul's ability to detect the ring was that refined. Think of the near encounters in the Dead Marshes and at Minas Morgul. You would think the the ring would be going off like a car alarm in the Nazgul's ears in such friendly territory.


----------



## Gordis (Dec 5, 2007)

Interesting discussion. 

I agree with *Thorin* that the nazgul had to "tune" to the Ring's signal to find it.
The question is whether the Ring emitted its signal all the time, or only when it "knew" that the target (a nazgul) was nearby? And if the latter is true, then how could the Ring "know" it? 

I don't think the Ring had any usual senses: sight, hearing, smell etc. More likely, it could only process the feelings of its holder - Frodo. So when Frodo saw the nazgul or knew the nazgul are (or might be) nearby, he got frightened and the Ring sensed it and started to emit its signal.

When Frodo was completely unaware of the danger, even when a nazgul was really quite near, then the Ring couldn't sense the nazgul either and didn't emit its signal.

That might explain the incidents with the Gaffer (Frodo was not yet frightened at all, he even considered revealing himself to the stranger) and on the road in the Shire (there Frodo was only slightly frightened and not yet quite sure of what, and the nazgul stopped, also feeling something - but not yet sure what exactly, maybe he only smelled some hobbit flesh nearby). 

The following night, Frodo was already quite frightened when he saw the nazgul, so the Ring's signal was stronger and the nazgul was much more "tuned" to the signal - he dismounted and went in the right direction. Also it has happened at night, when nazgul were more powerful. But for the Elves, Khamul would have found the Ring.

After that, the Ring, feeling Frodo's fear, must have been emitting its signal almost constantly, and indeed as we can see in the "Hunt for the Ring", published in the Reader's companion: *"But [the Witch-king and Khamûl] remain watching Weathertop. Thus they become aware of the approach of Frodo on Oct. 5."* And that is one day before Frodo actually reached Weathertop! Not bad...

Unfortunately the incidents that happened later (Emyn Muil, Dead Marches), are more difficult to explain. Well, perhaps there were lesser nazgul involved, whose ability to sense the Ring was no match for the WK's and Khamul's.

As for the incident in the Morgul Vale, I think it proves my theory. 

_First_ Frodo sees the WK and gets frigtened. (Here the Ring likely goes off "like a fire alarm". _Then_ and only then the WK senses the signal and stops. (Note that the WK had time to ride from the Gates down to the Bridge before he felt anything - because Frodo was unaware of him and the Ring was not emitting).

*'Even as these thoughts pierced [Frodo] with dread and held him bound as with a spell, the Rider halted suddenly, right before the entrance of the bridge, and behind him all the host stood still"* 

The Wk stops and tries to locate the source of the signal. Then the Ring "asks" to be put on. Frodo almost complies. But then Frodo finds Galadriel's Phial and gets shielded: *As he touched it, for a while all thought of the Ring was banished from his mind. He sighed and bent his head.*
Likely, as Frodo's mind becomes blank, the Ring's signal stops and the WK looses it. The Morgul Lord is in a hurry and has no time to investigate the matter - but for the war, the WK wouldn't have been deterred so easily. He had sensed the Ring all right.

Does it fit?


----------



## Eledhwen (Dec 5, 2007)

Yes, that makes sense. Also, the Nazgul were not thick. They guessed that Rivendell, via Weathertop, would be the route taken. Frodo never really got singled out until he put The Ring on, on Weathertop. He managed to avoid wearing it thereafter, and there is no evidence that the Nazgul can identify the ringbearer, or even tell when he is very close, unless he actually wears The Ring. Until Orordruin, Sam was the only one to put it on, and he was not as weakened in body and spirit as Frodo, and although he was on the borders of Mordor, no Nazgul were nearby.


----------



## Mr. Istari (Dec 5, 2007)

> They guessed that Rivendell, via Weathertop, would be the route taken.


I personally don't think they would have guessed that. As far as I know, the Nazgul didn't know that the hobbits had a guide such as Aragorn with them until Weathertop. And without a guide who knew his way around, I doubt the hobbits would have went to Weathertop at all, not to mention Rivendell.


----------



## Gordis (Dec 5, 2007)

The nazgul waited for the Hobbits at Weathertop because they had fought with Gandalf there on Oct.3. They supposed that Weathertop was the appointed meeting place with Gandalf. They drove the wizard away and prepared a trap for the Ringbearer.

And then - where could the hobbits go if they started from the Shire via Bree? They couldn't be making for the Havens, so most likely they were making for Rivendell. From Bree there was the only road East (via Weathertop) and there was the only road South - the Greenway, but this one the nazgul guarded at the Andrath defile. As for the North - why would anyone wish to go to the ruins of Fornost?


----------



## Eledhwen (Dec 6, 2007)

Gordis said:


> The nazgul waited for the Hobbits at Weathertop because they had fought with Gandalf there on Oct.3. They supposed that Weathertop was the appointed meeting place with Gandalf. They drove the wizard away and prepared a trap for the Ringbearer.


Good points. 

The Ringwraiths will have been aware that the Hobbits were now guided by a Ranger; they were in Bree and accosted Merry. Frodo did make a bit of a spectacle of himself, and the fact that Strider was in his company will have been reported: "But there was one swarthy Breelander .... Presently he slipped out of the door, followed by the squint-eyed southerner: the two had been whispering together a good deal during the evening."


----------



## Gordis (Dec 6, 2007)

There is this newly published Tolkien text from the "Reader's Companion":



> [on 30 September] The Nazgûl are thus all assembled at Andrath. [The Witch-king] is exceedingly wroth, and feels certain that Bearer has gone east from Bree. He is not yet aware of the presence of Gandalf, and does not learn anything of Aragorn beyond the report of the spy that 'a Ranger was in the Inn on the night of Sep[tember] 29'.
> The Witch-king now plans his pursuit. He sends four Riders across country from Andrath to Weathertop. He himself with the other four scour all round the borders from Sarn Ford to Bree at speed, but can find out nothing, or feel any trace of the Ring ... [on 30 September] knowing now that Ring has escaped East [they] leave Greenway and take East Road; soon after midnight they ride through Bree like a storm, casting down the gates.
> Oct. 3: Gandalf reaches Weathertop but does not overtake the Witch-king and other four Riders for they become aware of his approach as he overtakes them on Shadowfax, and withdraw into hiding beside the road. They close in behind. [The Witch-king] is both pleased and puzzled. For a while he had been in great fear, thinking that by some means Gandalf had got possession of the Ring and was now the Bearer; but as Gandalf passes he is aware that Gandalf has not got the Ring. What is he pursuing? He himself must be after the escaping Bearer; and it must therefore somehow have gone on far ahead. But Gandalf is a great power and enemy. He must be dealt with, and yet that needs great force.
> [The five] follow Gandalf hotly to Weathertop. Since Gandalf halts there, [the Witch-King] suspects that that is a trysting place.
> ...


----------



## Eledhwen (Dec 6, 2007)

Gordis has found a useful source. Though we know that not all the details got into the final copy (though some rejects made it into the film), it does show the story from the Witch-king's viewpoint. He seems not to be aware that the Ring was in Bree at the same time that they themselves were, as he did not gain a close enough proximity to it to become aware of its presence (I deduce this because of his certainty that Gandalf did not have the ring, because he would have percieved it).

This makes sense. If secrecy were required initially, it would be sacrificed if they had known the Ring was in the Prancing Pony. The pre-existence of Hobbits in Bree was a useful obfuscation against their mission.


----------



## Gordis (Dec 6, 2007)

Eledhwen said:


> He seems not to be aware that the Ring was in Bree at the same time that they themselves were



The problem of the nazgul, Eledhwen, is that only the Witch-King and Khamul could sense the Ring really well. And neither of them was in Bree while the hobbits were there. The WK was still at Andrath and Khamul was at Crickhollow. The rest of the nazgul were just... well...not too good to put it mildly. 
The two in Bree were especially bad: they had almost captured Merry but panicked when Nob came shouting with a lantern... Pitiful indeed.

The two nazgul who directed (or perpetrated) the sack of the hobbit-sized room in the Prancing Pony couldn't even tell that the Ring was in the same building, but upstairs. And the Ring was likely "silent" as Frodo was not aware of the attack. Also, finding nothing at the Pony, the two nazgul got upset and went south to Andrath to report to the WK - leaving Bree and the East Road unguarded. That's how they lost the trail of the hobbits between Bree and Weathertop.


----------



## BalrogRingDestroyer (Jul 30, 2018)

Eledhwen said:


> Yes, that makes sense. Also, the Nazgul were not thick. They guessed that Rivendell, via Weathertop, would be the route taken. Frodo never really got singled out until he put The Ring on, on Weathertop. He managed to avoid wearing it thereafter, and there is no evidence that the Nazgul can identify the ringbearer, or even tell when he is very close, unless he actually wears The Ring. Until Orordruin, Sam was the only one to put it on, and he was not as weakened in body and spirit as Frodo, and although he was on the borders of Mordor, no Nazgul were nearby.



Um, not true. There was a Hobbit who had too much to drink in the Prancing Pony who was singing about a cow jumping over the moon and put on the Ring as he sang. The Nazgul had gone through Bree a day or so earlier and some were in the Shire, not too far away and some were Eru-knows-where, possibly after Gandalf. You'd have thought that Frodo putting on the Ring would have signaled them.


Also, Frodo again put the Ring on at the Falls of Rauros. The Nazgul didn't spot him, but somehow Sauron nearly did. Yet no Nazgul were even sent there to look, though apparently one was nearby, judging from some of the comments the orcs that held Merry and Pippin made.


As for the attack on the Prancing Pony, I don't think it was Nazgul at all. For a long while, I thought that, and maybe it was shown to be so in the movie, but I find this unlikely. Both their rooms and the room they were actually in were on the ground level. More likely, the Southern and some other guys like Harry the gateman and Bill Ferney, etc may have had something to do with it. There were goons that would sell them out to Mordor or Isengard lurking about.

A bunch of Nazgul were, that night, making an assault upon Crickhollow, thinking Frodo was there, so them attacking the Pony while thinking he might be in Buckland is odd. It was only after seeing Freddy Bolger running and searching the house that they realized that they'd been tricked. It was at that point that they made for the inn. Luckily, Strider suspected trouble already (thanks to Frodo putting on the Ring) and so they decided to be off at once in the morning. 

The theft of the horses and stuff slowed them down. Again, it may have been the same guy(s) who tried to kill them that also stole or freed the horses. 

The Nazgul were confused by Strider's paths, but would have headed them off at Weathertop, had not Gandalf gotten there before them and fought with the Nazgul, causing the Nazgul to not be on the watching place itself when they arrived, which let them at least know the Nazgul were coming.

However, the Nazgul kind of figured they'd probably go by Weathertop itself. It could be avoided, but the price would be to go into troll country, which was likely more friendly to Mordor anyway. (The route south away from Bree would lead too close to Isengard to consider going.) It wasn't so much that the Ring drew them, as it was a fair guess for anyone familiar with the region that they'd HAVE to pass Weathertop at some point. As such, it is doubtful that the company could have avoided the Nazgul all the way to Rivendale. At least at the first bridge, the Nazgul would have headed them off, which would have been worse than meeting them at Weathertop as they'd have even less cover.


Also, even using the Ring's power doesn't draw them, as Frodo used it on Gollum on Mordor's side of the Anduin when Nazgul had to not be far off.


----------



## Barliman (Jul 31, 2018)

BalrogRingDestroyer said:


> As for the attack on the Prancing Pony, I don't think it was Nazgul at all. For a long while, I thought that, and maybe it was shown to be so in the movie, but I find this unlikely. Both their rooms and the room they were actually in were on the ground level. More likely, the Southern and some other guys like Harry the gateman and Bill Ferney, etc may have had something to do with it. There were goons that would sell them out to Mordor or Isengard lurking about.
> 
> A bunch of Nazgul were, that night, making an assault upon Crickhollow, thinking Frodo was there, so them attacking the Pony while thinking he might be in Buckland is odd. It was only after seeing Freddy Bolger running and searching the house that they realized that they'd been tricked. It was at that point that they made for the inn. Luckily, Strider suspected trouble already (thanks to Frodo putting on the Ring) and so they decided to be off at once in the morning.


Actually in chapter 10, _Strider_. Aragorn identifies them as the Black Riders and that it was the "Black Breath" that overcame Merry when he was out for a walk in Bree.


----------



## Deleted member 12094 (Aug 1, 2018)

Quite clearly so, Barliman: your joint *was *attacked by Black Riders, who else would know that better here! 

More seriously though: let's not call into question JRRT's own writings.


----------

