# What would have happened?



## Firawyn (Dec 6, 2007)

I was talking to my (newly subjected to Lord of the Rings) roommate the other night, and he asked me:

"What do you think would have happened if Frodo had failed to destroy the Ring?"

I thought that was a very good question to ponder...so what do you guys think?


----------



## Flame of Udûn (Dec 6, 2007)

Frodo did fail to destroy the Ring.


----------



## Elfarmari (Dec 6, 2007)

True, ultimately no one willingly destroyed the Ring, and Sauron was only defeated because both Frodo and Gollum _wanted to keep_ the Ring. You would have to clarify your question, though. Do you mean, what if Sauron captured Frodo and took the Ring back? In that case, perhaps Gandalf would have been able to take a more personal hand in the battle; he is one the Ainur, like Sauron, after all. If Frodo had claimed the Ring as his own and not had it stolen by Gollum, the question would then be how quickly he could learn to use the power of the Ring, and whether he could do so before the Nazgul arrived to bring him the Sauron. The battle before the Black Gates was very close, though, so any delay in the destruction of the Ring might have been extremely bad news for Aragorn and his army. 

Maybe one of the Eagles could have come along, picked up Frodo, and dropped him into Orodruin, like Gollum!


----------



## Flame of Udûn (Dec 6, 2007)

Tolkien answered this question himself.


The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien said:


> 246 From a letter to Mrs Eileen Elgar (drafts) September 1963
> [A reply to a reader's comments on Frodo's failure to surrender the Ring in the Cracks of Doom.]
> Frodo in the tale actually takes the Ring and claims it, and certainly he too would have had a clear vision – but he was not given any time: he was immediately attacked by Gollum. When Sauron was aware of the seizure of the Ring his one hope was in its power: that the claimant would be unable to relinquish it until Sauron had time to deal with him. Frodo too would then probably, if not attacked, have had to take the same way: cast himself with the Ring into the abyss. If not he would of course have completely failed. It is an interesting problem: how Sauron would have acted or the claimant have resisted. Sauron sent at once the Ringwraiths. They were naturally fully instructed, and in no way deceived as to the real lordship of the Ring. The wearer would not be invisible to them, but the reverse; and the more vulnerable to their weapons. But the situation was now different to that under Weathertop, where Frodo acted merely in fear and wished only to use (in vain) the Ring's subsidiary power of conferring invisibility. He had grown since then. Would they have been immune from its power if he claimed it as an instrument of command and domination?
> Not wholly. I do not think they could have attacked him with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor commands of his that did not interfere with their errand – laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills. That errand was to remove Frodo from the Crack. Once he lost the power or opportunity to destroy the Ring, the end could not be in doubt – saving help from outside, which was hardly even remotely possible.
> ...


----------



## Firawyn (Dec 7, 2007)

Eh, pick your own when and wheres. 

Suppose Frodo had lost the ring at Weathertop...to the Nazguls of course. 

The real question I was asking was more long term: Like what would have happened to Middle Earth as a whole, during say...the next two hundred years? Would others have risen against Sauron, like the Last Alignence(sp?)? 

Or would everyone have just fallen into darkness and slavery?


----------



## Barliman Butterbur (Dec 8, 2007)

Firawyn said:


> I was talking to my (newly subjected to Lord of the Rings) roommate the other night, and he asked me:
> 
> "What do you think would have happened if Frodo had failed to destroy the Ring?"
> 
> I thought that was a very good question to ponder...so what do you guys think?



We'd be serving barbecued hobbit at the Pony...

Barley


----------



## baragund (Dec 10, 2007)

Yes, Fir, it basically would be a second Darkness. 

I recall somewhere in the books there is a passage where Gandalf talks about some kind of confrontation with Sauron if Frodo's errand fails, but he seemed pretty pessimistic about it, especially if Sauron regained the ring. It struck me a kind of last ditch forestalling kind of defense against an irresistable tide. Remember, the Istari were sent to Middle-earth to be counselors, not warriors.

Also, I don't see much chance for another Alliance of Elves and Men. Certainly, not at the scale of what took place at the end of the Second Age. Most of the Elves migrated to Valinor and the realms of Lindon, Rivendell, Lothlorien and Dol Amroth were shells of what they once were.


----------



## Leveller (Dec 10, 2007)

The Valar would go "Okey we will help you again, but this *really* is the last time!" and then kick Saurons little butt.


----------



## Eledhwen (Dec 11, 2007)

I find the question of "What if the Nazgul had picked up the Ring at Weathertop?" extremely interesting (Firawyn). Would they have taken it to Sauron, or been seduced by it themselves?


----------



## Firawyn (Dec 11, 2007)

@ Barley....you crack me up...




Eledhwen said:


> I find the question of "What if the Nazgul had picked up the Ring at Weathertop?" extremely interesting (Firawyn). Would they have taken it to Sauron, or been seduced by it themselves?



Def. a good question.What do you think Eledhwen?


----------



## Gothmog (Dec 11, 2007)

They would have taken it straight to Sauron. The Nazgul were the only ones Sauron could trust to take the ring as they had been completely taken over by the rings they had been given. The rings they once possessed now possessed them and were held by Sauron who then completely dominated them.


----------



## Eledhwen (Dec 12, 2007)

Sorry, I would have put more in my previous post, but I had lost track of time and had to rush out.


Gothmog said:


> The rings they once possessed now possessed them and were held by Sauron who then completely dominated them.


You're right; and I believe Tolkien reiterated this more than once. However, the strength of this 'magic' was untried, and I am enjoying the speculation that some flaw in Sauron's personality - something awry in his desire to dominate maybe - might have found its way into the ring (a 'bug' in the Ring's program), that would override the control imbued into the Nazgul by the Nine (or cause a small breach in it that might have a weakening effect, like a small crack in a dam ultimately destroying it), allowing the wearer's own desire to dominate to be awakened and break through. My hypothesis would require that one of the Nazgul might accidentally put the ring on (like Frodo did in the Prancing Pony); but given their acute awareness of it, I acknowledge that this is highly unlikely. I do not believe any of them would be capable of deliberately putting the Ring on.


----------



## Bucky (Dec 20, 2007)

```
I find the question of "What if the Nazgul had picked up the Ring at Weathertop?" extremely interesting (Firawyn). Would they have taken it to Sauron, or been seduced by it themselves?
```

Tolkien has made it quite clear that The Nazgul had NO will of their own & would've taken The Ring straight to Sauron.....

Otherwise, why would Sauron have sent The Nine to retreive The Ring in the first place?
Wouldn't he have just sent some orcs or soldiery & told them not to despoile the prisioners?


----------



## Gothmog (Dec 20, 2007)

Eledhwen said:


> However, the strength of this 'magic' was untried, and I am enjoying the speculation that some flaw in Sauron's personality - something awry in his desire to dominate maybe - might have found its way into the ring (a 'bug' in the Ring's program), that would override the control imbued into the Nazgul by the Nine (or cause a small breach in it that might have a weakening effect, like a small crack in a dam ultimately destroying it), allowing the wearer's own desire to dominate to be awakened and break through. My hypothesis would require that one of the Nazgul might accidentally put the ring on (like Frodo did in the Prancing Pony); but given their acute awareness of it, I acknowledge that this is highly unlikely. I do not believe any of them would be capable of deliberately putting the Ring on.


Personally, the only way I can see such a "bug" allowing a breach of any size would be if the Nazgul still held their own rings and therefore had a measure of 'distance' between themselves and the will of Sauron. As things stood, not only had their rings taken complete possession of their will but Sauron himself held these rings and therefore had complete possession of the Nazgul making them essentialy nothing more than phyisical extentions of Sauron. I would speculate that in this situation, had one of the Nazgul put the ring on his finger it would have simply been almost the same effect as if it was on Sauron's hand. Sauron would have then had access to the power of the One Ring (though possibly at a lessened intensity).


----------

