# Was it correct for King Finwë of the Noldor to remarry for a seemingly selfish reason



## Arvedui (Oct 14, 2003)

> Now it came to pass that Finwë took as his second wife Indis the Fair. She was a Vanya, close kin of Ingwë the High King, golden-haired and tall, and in all ways unlike Míriel. Finwë loved her greatly, and was glad again. But the shadow of Míriel did not depart from the house of Finwë, nor from his heart; and of all whom he loved Fëanor had ever the chief share of his thought.


_From The Silmarillion._ 

*Was it correct for King Finwë of the Noldor to remarry for a seemingly selfish reason?* 


Another topic from the Debate-Tournament.

Enjoy


----------



## Confusticated (Oct 14, 2003)

Those 'seemingly' selfish reasons would be 1) love 2) have more children.

What better reason to get married?

Of course he was right to do so for seemingly selfish reasons.

However, if he was correct to remarry in general (reasons aside) is another matter. Mandos had made official Miriel's decision that she would never return to life. So now Finwe was allowed to remarry. It seems wrong to me that an elf who is by nature supposed to have one spouse for life, would end up having a second one, but what happened with Miriel was an injustice to Finwe.


----------



## Ithrynluin (Oct 14, 2003)

Finwe dearly loved Miriel while she lived, and the memory of her never left him. He treasured and cherished it for the rest of his live. So his second marriage can't have been disgraceful or disrespectful to Miriel in any way. (Unless the very concept of remarrying was thought as disgraceful among the Elves, which I don't think it was).

The only thing that might have been considered as selfish is the reaction of his son Fëanor to his second marriage. Did Finwë consider the possibility that his son would be ill-pleased with his father's remarriage? But marrying for the second time was unprecedented among Elves and Finwë married Indis for all the right reasons, so I don't think he had any suspicions that Fëanor would be unhappy. Was Fëanor even aware of how much his father had loved his mother, and kept that love and memory of her even after she passed away? I think he might have known that, but couldn't get over his own pettiness and the fact that now he wouldn't be the only child of the king, and thus not get all the attention. 

So I'd say Finwë marrying for the second time was perfectly alright, and I daresay even exemplary in the sense that he overcame his grief and did the best he could with what he had.


----------



## Ravenna (Oct 28, 2003)

Presumably the elves had not come up with the idea of divorce!
Therefore, their marriages were presumed to be for life, But since no Elf had yet died, (or departed in this way) prior to Miriel, I would assume that the subject of remarriage had not come up much.

Should Finwe have remained for eternity grieving for a wife who had left him of her own free will, or bowed to the demands of his spoilt brat of a son who wanted to keep 'daddy' all to himself?
He had the right to happiness, as did all the other Elves.
As long as he did not forget the love he bore for Miriel, and provided that Indis was aware of this and was prepared to accept it. If Finwe had enough love in his heart for both his wives, then IMO he had every right to remarry.


----------



## Lhunithiliel (Oct 29, 2003)

I would not blame Finwe for re-marrying. From what we read in the _Laws and Customs..._ it is obvious that it was a natural state for the Elves to marry in their early years and stay married in the meaning of that special bond between the fear even if the hroar were not physically close. But when a fea refuses that bond (as in the case of Mirilel) the harmony is destroyed. It WAS a precedent! Yet it had to be handled in such a way as to come as close as possible to the _natural_ state. And so the Vala did ...and Finwe was allowed to re-marry. A fea of an Elf was normally seeking for a union. And it was provided.
On the other hand, with Miriel Finwe had only one son. I doubt that he was too much satisfied with this fact! 
I don't see this as _selfish_!

Finally, I would not be hasty to condem Feanor for being _selfish_ in his reaction to his father's second marriage, either! Referring to the essay above mentioned, we learn that Elves - mothers and Elves- children had a very strong bond on the level of their fear. That's why the mothers could give the second names to their children based on a special foresight about the character of the new-born. Feanor lost his mother spiritually rather than physically in a very early age, so it was a heavy blow on his fea and mind.
We also learn that in the yearly years of their youth and marriages, the Elves tended to live together in a happy family environment which was extremely important for the growing up generation. Now .... Did Feanor have all this? No! What he had experienced was a father moarning at the side of the fea-less body of his mother; grief and sorrow - instead of happiness and merry laughter and songs (an environment typical for the houses of the Elves, I think) ... etc. Could he then be blamed for "breeding" up a "gloom" character of himself? ... 
But ... I'm sorry! This thread is not about Feanor, but about Finwe.


----------



## Bucky (Oct 29, 2003)

All good points, especially about Feanor being 'scarred' in early childhood, never crossed my mind before......

I would say ANYONE might want to & have a right to remarry, especially an elf looking at eons on Arda alone........

BTW, that essay on the 'fea' got rather tedious after a while didn't it?


----------



## Elfhelm25 (Oct 30, 2003)

Lets look at it from another point of view. 
As elves are intended to have one spouse or partner all their life, and seemingly it is a disgrace for elves to remarry....
Well obviously there are lots of arguments whether it was honorable or not for Finwe to remarry..
My question is, what about Indis ?
Was it honorable to her to take a man who was already "taken " ? Did this affect her status in any way ? Was it frowned upon or accepted ? After all, she is a very important part of this "triangle ", and sadly she seems to be looked upon as the "second " wife. Everythings about Miriel and Finwe ! Indis gave Finwe some pretty powerful children, she deserves a part in this discussion too. After all, it all gets more interesting when it involves the three!~


----------



## Noldoli (Oct 30, 2003)

_Indis had quietly loved Finwe for years, and at the time of their meeting in Valmar, where Finwe learned of her love for him, he was no longer taken, as it was proclaimed by the Valar that a union which is for the life of Arda is ended if it can not be resumed within Arda. The marriage of Finwe and Miriel was therefore ended at the time, Mandos having judged that Miriel would not return to life.

One may fault Finwe for his failure of love, his unwillingness to endure the grief of the loss of Miriel without seeking justice (though I would not), but how could one fault Indis? The one she loved was in grief and had lost something greater than any elf save Feanor had to date in Valinor, and it was thought that he could never regain what was lost. When Finwe grew to love her, that was his way to happiness and as he said 'healing of grief'. How then could this not be honourable of Indis?_



Noldoli


----------



## Elfhelm25 (Nov 1, 2003)

Im not saying she was at fault necessarly, Im wondering what everyone else thinks on the matter. Saying it would be solely the "fault " of Finwe is not fair- whether it is acceptable or not would depend on how both parties are viewed ( PS. I think its fine, but then again I didnt grow up in an elven society, much to my disappointment. )


----------

