# Forsaken Inn?



## Confusticated (Oct 21, 2003)

..............


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## Ithrynluin (Oct 21, 2003)

The Periaur have only recently made a few attempts at 'becoming more Tolkien', and the GoO was not completely non-Tolkien. These two guilds should either BOTH be in the guilds section, or both in the 'Off-topic discussions' section. Otherwise it is extremely unfair. I'm more in favour of having both of them under the 'Off-topic discussions' because that's what these two guilds really are - their appeal is not, and would not be, in discussing Tolkien, but in discussing issues pertaining to the specific groups of people that frequent them. Making Tolkien related threads (mainly for the purpose of ensuring that these guilds stay in the guilds section) in so many places of the forum makes the forum even more divided, and these threads will not get much response, certainly not as much as they would get in the books sections. The Tolkien threads that have been opened in the Periaur as of late in no way differ from the usual stuff discussed in the book sections. What is the point?

Also, why not let the Outcasts keep their original name?

The Time Lords should also be moved into the 'Off-topic discussions'.


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## DGoeij (Oct 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *The Periaur have only recently made a few attempts at 'becoming more Tolkien', and the GoO was not completely non-Tolkien. These two guilds should either BOTH be in the guilds section, or both in the 'Off-topic discussions' section. Otherwise it is extremely unfair. *



[snob mode]No, it's not unfair. I'm a member of the Periaur, not of the Outcasts, so the Periaur should stay in the Guilds section.[/snob mode]

I wouldn't be suprised if we were moved, but we had some nice (yes, mostly non-Tolkien) threads going on in our Guild. Will those become intermingled with all the other 'off-topic' threads if they are moved?

See, I _like_ our little Tween hangout.


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## Talierin (Oct 21, 2003)

WM and I haven't gotten around to discussing Periaur yet, that is all, whereas we have talked about GoO, and decided to move it there, since it's got a lot of good threads, too good to shuffle around or archive.

Any suggestions on the Periaur while we're on the subject? I think we could move Periaur in with GoO without too many problems. I kind of invision the Forsaken Inn to be a sort of geek gathering place, to talk about what it's like to be a geek, etc...


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## DGoeij (Oct 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Talierin _
> *Any suggestions on the Periaur while we're on the subject? I think we could move Periaur in with GoO without too many problems. I kind of invision the Forsaken Inn to be a sort of geek gathering place, to talk about what it's like to be a geek, etc... *



I know gatherings of youngsters aren't popular in general, but there's no need to call us geeks! 

I don't know about the general atmosphere in the GoO, but we periaur intermingle our occasional nonsense with quite a lot of more 'serious' topics. If mixing thse guilds would cause all members to participate in the various threads without causing too much wandering off topic (for both former Outcasts and Periaur threads) I see no harm.

But I'm just one Tween. I'll notify the others to come and join this thread. And maybe I should visit the Outcasts as well.


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## Confusticated (Oct 22, 2003)

Well now I can get blamed if Periaur gets shut down like I was blamed for the post counter removal trial. Am loooking forward to that! 

If the Periaur and GoO are merged against the will of either of these groups, it will be very unfair to them, and no fault of their own since they were just using these guilds in a way that had been allowed to for over a year.

The way I see it, the non-Tolkien stuff has been made minimal on the front page, and is such that it doesn't advertise any specific topics. What further use would it be to take apart some of those groups like GoO and Tweens?

With Stuff and Bother, Golden Perch and Forsaken Inn... there are three areas having nothing to do with Tolkien. If Webmaster doesn't want any non-Tolkien guilds then what if Periaur (if it is okay with them) move to the Off Topic area in place of Golden Perch, and have the title of that area changed to Periaur or something the Tweens think represents them and the description added that it is a place for the discussion of Tween issues and all things from the Tween point of view? And then maybe even let Outcasts come up with a name for their new location? In this way the GoO and Periaur can remain intact. It is better than making them merge and lose anthing that is vital to either.

If Webmaster would let them decide what name to have for the areas and which descriptions to stick under the names, then the groups could both be sure to attract the types they are looking for. Maybe GoO and Periaur would be happy with that? 

From what I have seen the Tweens are not a geeky bunch really, nor Outcasty... if anything I'd say they were your typical tweens... and widely considered 'cool' by all sorts of achingly boring type people... or in other words... the opposite of Outcasts... maybe I am wrong about this. 

Webmaster added two non-Tolkien areas, so I'm not sure why exactly he wants to get rid of Periaur and GoO as guilds... but if he must do so this seems the best solution to me.


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## Legolam (Oct 22, 2003)

Woah guys. Getting rid of the politics stuff is one thing, but moving the Periaur????? What exactly would this accomplish, really? It's already hidden off the front page. Also, to say that we don't discuss Tolkien is untrue, as many very interesting topics have been introduced by Tweens, especially in the recent past. We've also had many of the greatest debates and the greatest debators in this Guild.

The Guild of the Periaur is the one place on this forum that I feel genuinely at home, away from the too-serious atmostphere of some guilds, and the too-silly atmostphere of S+B. We've built up a proper community, where many of us have met face-to-face and we actually KNOW each other. I think moving or merging this would destroy all that we, and especially Elbereth, have tried to create.



> From what I have seen the Tweens are not a geeky bunch really, nor Outcasty... if anything I'd say they were your typical tweens... and widely considered 'cool' by all sorts of achingly boring type people... or in other words... the opposite of Outcasts... maybe I am wrong about this.


 I think that's a fair point, in that the Outcasts and Periaur are two completely different guilds. Although I wouldn't like to think of myself either as a "geek" or "cool". I'm just a normal 20 year old that enjoys discussing things, Tolkien related or not, in a place with others that think the same way as me.


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## Confusticated (Oct 22, 2003)

> What exactly would this accomplish, really?



This is what I want to know too. For Periaur and GoO.

GoO has also had Tolkien threads, though not many. 

But I don't see how Periaur having Snaga, perhaps the best debator in the tournament, should really count for much... participation in the tournament should count as far as showing that Periaur does have Tolkien activities... same with GoO, even though we don't have a Snaga debating for us. 

But the whole thing... moving GoO to Forsaken Inn, and plans to get rid of Periaur or merge it with GoO, makes no sense to me.

I understand about feeling at home Legolam... that is how I felt in Guild of Scholars.


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## Aulë (Oct 22, 2003)

Why was the Guild of Outcasts moved from the Guild section in the first place? Taliern proposed to them that they move. They were happy with that.

Tal must have spoken to Elbereth about moving the Periaur too, but Elbe didn't want to move the Periaur away from the Guild section. Instead she started encouraging us to implement some Tolkien-based topics into our Guild. We have now done that, giving it a mix of Tolkien and Tween-talk. 
As you know, we are also participants in the Debate Tournament, and will probably be involved in future inter-Guild Tolkien debates. Not being in the Guild section sort of negates the 'Guild' in 'inter-Guild' debates .
The Tournament also absorbs a lot of the Tween's Tolkien-based discussions, so hopefully the Tolkien-talk in the Guild will increase once the Tournament concludes (as it probably will with the other Guilds too).


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## Confusticated (Oct 22, 2003)

Forget this!

I started this thread to find out why GoO was removed but not Periaur in hopes that GoO could remain.... if it moves into some general Inn it could lose what makes it what it is.

I also try to defend both GoO and Periaur, by saying I don't see the sense in what Webmaster is doing. Tal says Webmaster wants to get rid of the things so I offered a solution.

Someone just contacted me on MSn and is pissed off about me starting this thread.

Whatever,. why dont you all just tell webmaster to ban me if you think every bad thing is all my fault.

To hell with it.


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## Aulë (Oct 22, 2003)

I don't see what you're complaining about.
Talierin offered the Outcasts the vacant Forsaken Inn spot, and they all seemed to pretty much agree to go there.


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## Snaga (Oct 22, 2003)

The Outcast's have the mighty Nom in their ranks, so they don't need a Snaga.

Can someone define what constitutes a guild? 

If the Periaur and the Outcasts are guilds then they belong in that section. If they aren't guilds for some reason (probably because they now need to be more Tolkien and therefore more or less identical in purpose), then I can't see why they should be kept at all. Lets just kick all the threads straight into Stuff and Bother and just have done with it. But of course someone would have to go through Ost-in-Edhil and move out their non-Tolkien threads too. Cos OiE are just a 'age related' guild, not a Tolkien guild even if they do have more Tolkien threads.

Of course all this will add to the general atmosphere of us all being unsettled / fed up with the forum, but WM has asked us to bear with him as he forces through these changes. OK, I will. At the end of it we will see if this is a place we still like.

Personally I prefer the idea of a bit of leeway in the Guilds where some diversity is OK if its not causing problems but then this all might help my plot to destroy the forum. So yes.... go for it.... MORE CHANGE!!! I DEMAND MORE UNNECESSARY AND UNPOPULAR CHANGES!!!!!


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## Confusticated (Oct 22, 2003)

> *by Aule*
> I don't see what you're complaining about.
> Talierin offered the Outcasts the vacant Forsaken Inn spot, and they all seemed to pretty much agree to go there.


That is not the way it happened.

They were not asked "Hey, would you guys rather move to the forsaken inn?" Nay! They were told hat GoO was being removed by Webmaster.This what they were first presented with:


> WM and I were talking about the non-tolkien guilds' futures (i.e. getting rid of them), and I was telling him about how great this guild is, and he suggested that maybe we could move into the now vacant Golden Perch or Forsaken Inn, instead of being deleted, which I think is a cool idea. So what do you all think?



It was move all the threads into an Inn or be deleted.

some replies to that:


> Well, when the alternative is deleting GOO, it's sounds as a great idea.





> meh, i'm not too fond of all these changes going on, but whatever floats ur guys' boats.





> i think its a bad idea.....
> i know what u guys are doing is great!...i mean it is a tolkien related website..but has an out cast...i dont think it should be moved or touched or anything
> perhaps u could get some more of the outcasts to explain excatly what being an outcast and lotr's have in common...i think i could..but im not very good with words...so ill just end up confusing everyone.. so ill just say





> I would have more to say on the idea if I understood what these Golden Perch and Forsaken Inn things are supposed to be. oh well. What's the huge deal with moving if this thing will still be around somewhere? Oh, it might take you two extra seconds to find that place? Whoops.





> Ahem. Do anything you want, I don't care where you put it, just don't delete it.





> If the alternative is being deleted, you can move us wherever the heck you want ...





> Well, I started this place with a few Tolkien related type threadses, but they weren't especially popular. oh well. It makes all kinds of sense to me to move us to some place that the big and scary people in charge might think that we'd fit better. Not a huge deal. I just wouldn't want the name changed.


Leader doesn't want the name changed.
Then Talierin reports back:


> Sorry guys, but WM says we can't have an organized guild anymore  BUT! he said we can keep the threads if we spread them throughout the Inns section, as long as they're good threads  I'll try to give you a list of where they're going as I move them.


a reply to that:


> Can we at least still use the GOO name? It does have 'Guild' in the title, but can we use it unofficially anyway?
> Or can we use 'GOO' without spelling it out in the thread titles - but still with the understanding amongst ourselves as to what it means?
> 
> Or we could rename ourselves: De' GOO - meaning, Defunct Guild of Outcasts.





> I doubt that adding whatever crazy little acronyms you want on your title will matter too much. Am I an evil person for not minding that this place will be gone? I am not a fan when someone calls me a guildmaster or moderator. Sickening. oh well. Have fun with whatever you people decide.





> I echo Arebeth and Rhi on my opinions about this place (it is our precious, it's a safe haven, it shouldn't be deleted, some new Tolkien-related threads would be great, it doesn't matter where they move us as long as we're together and intact, we do mess around but we're willing to reform in order to stick together...and messing around is part of the beauty of GOO...there needs to be somewhere for people to relax and be themselves...). But as it stands, it seems like we have little choice. This seems to have happened so quickly with so little explanation. Or maybe I just haven't been paying attention again...
> 
> There's no point complaining if there's nothing we can do. Tal, our famous supermod, keep us posted with which threads are moving where. Don't let me lose you guys!  I need some sort of GOO stability to keep my sanity. We will always be the GOO, whether or not we're an official guild (in fact...doesn't it make us even more Outcasted that we don't have an organized guild...? ) I agree with Mindy...Defunct Guild of Outcasts has a sort of ring to it.
> 
> Well...here's to all of you, then. No matter what, guild or otherwise, we will all continue to be Outcasted...it's not really something that can change with the revocation of an official title or meeting place, and that's comforting.





> Ah. Also, don't get rid of this place before that debating type tournament thing is over. People will inevitably rant.





> I'm working hard to be pragmatic and understanding- and I can understand the WM's position. Though I must say I'd rather Tolkien-ize the outcasts than dismember it and spread it around, it's not like it's completely unreasonable.


Another mention of making GoO more about Tolkien. See, I thought Periaur were able to remain becuse they're making it more about Tolkien but that GoO was not allowed this chance.


> Yeah, I think so, too. I mean, we're all ready to do whatever it takes to keep the GOO. At the risk of repeating myself over and over again: Is there any possible way that we could have the opportunity to re-Tolkienize ourselves to suit the Webmaster instead of taking us apart without even trying?



And of course you can go over to the GoO and read the full thread for yourself.

PS: I should have known that my friend over in Periaur would mistake my intention, but believe me, I was not trying to get Periaur removed but trying to get some reasons that make sense and find a way to keep GoO (and later Periaur too) from falling apart in general Inns.


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## DGoeij (Oct 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Nóm _
> *Forget this ****!
> 
> I started this thread to find out why GoO was removed but not Periaur in hopes that GoO could remain.... if it moves into some general Inn it could lose what makes it what it is.
> ...



I don't see the point in attacking you for _responding_ to the WM and Co. That's pretty brainless to say the least. I don't know what made the WM move the GoO and let the Periaur at rest, but some clarity might help. 
And neither do I blaim you for seeking clarity. After GoO, the Periaur might be the next to be moved without a clear reason. We better find a working solution now, then wait for a sudden change that hits us like a ton of rectangular building objects.

PS Beside that, I'm partially guilty for calling the Periaur over in the first place. But my intention was for the benefit of both Guilds. And don't bother in insulting me, I'd merely wet my paints laughing at you.


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## Confusticated (Oct 22, 2003)

> PS Beside that, I'm partially guilty for calling the Periaur over in the first place. But my intention was for the benefit of both Guilds.


Well it is nothing to be guilty about... the Periaur shoud be heard in this thread. Aule has a history of blaming me for things which happen as a result of threads that I started, regardless of my intention, of course this is his deal, not yours or any other Periaur.



> Can someone define what constitutes a guild?


I'd say they are simply forums where most of the regular posters (and some who are not regular posters) have official membership, which carries the sole benefit in having a say about what goes on in that forum. But as a result of that communities form and in a lot of cases people feel at home within the guild. I think it has nothing to do with the percentage of Tolkien content. If GoO and Periaur must go bye-bye but the threads in them are going to Inns then at least Inn titles and forum descriptions can go some way towards keeping those sections much like they were as official guilds.

What I don't understand is why GoO and Periaur should be removed if the threads will just be moved to another forum. If this happens then yes, they may as well go into Stuff and Bother because that is just what the Inns will because if the titles and decriptions do not cause the threads to be of a specific sort.


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## Kailita (Oct 22, 2003)

Can a little Outcast put in her point of view?



> _Originally posted by Nóm_
> *Now what else will happen with that Inn? Is it now just another Stuff and Bother... where any non-Tolkien topic can be posted?
> 
> Or is this just the new name and location of GoO?*



Nóm asked this question at the beginning of the thread, and I'd like to echo it. What exactly is this Inn for? Is the GOO going to be mixed with all sorts of other unrelated conversations, or is it just a new name and location with the same basic atmosphere as our guild? 



> _Originally posted by DGoeij_
> *See, I like our little Tween hangout.*


I understand, DGoeij. I have no wish for the Periaur to be moved...none of the Outcasts do. But we liked _our_ little hangout too. The GOO is our home, just as Periaur is yours, and we have gotten very little explanation as to what is going on or why we're being taken apart or what will happen to us. Thank goodness we have Nóm to stand up for us.

I have nothing against the Periaur, but I don't think it would be a good idea for them to mesh with GOO in the Forsaken Inn. We may be similar in some respects, but our overall essence is very different. And, judging from DGoeij's response to Tal's idea about what the Forsaken Inn should be, the Periaur don't seem to view themselves as geeks. Whereas members of the GOO are Outcasted in all kinds of ways...geeks and otherwise. There are other ways to be cut off and outcasted than being a "geek". 

Anyway, I don't mind being housed in the Inn...but are we going to be combined with a whole bunch of other threads now? I'd kind of like to keep that from happening, if we could, just to let us keep the sense of community. But then again, that would be a lot like just letting us keep our guild anyway.


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## Niniel (Oct 22, 2003)

I really don't see why all the non-Tolkien related guilds and fora should be closed. I opposed the closing of the GoP and GoR, but I thought that the other non-Tolkien guilds would be spared, i.e. Periaur, Outcasts and Ost-in-Edhil (I think we should include them in the discussion too, they're non-Tolkienrelated and not very active anyway). Now it seems that they are in danger too! I really don't see why this is necessary; having them adds immensely to the sense of community that TTF has. Forcedly trying to have only Tolkien-related subjects will take much of the fun away for many members of the forum.


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## baragund (Oct 22, 2003)

I'm not directly impacted by this issue but I urge the Management to reconsider the decision to remove Guild status from GoO (and potentially GoP and O-in-E).

Guilds where like-minded people can gather to talk about any range of topics, not just Tolkien, makes this forum a more lively place, more enjoyable, and contributes to it's overall sense of community. As we spend more time in this forum, we get to know individuals who we seem to 'click' with, and it is naturally more fulfilling when our discussions inevitably go to areas beyond Tolkien. The Guilds create smaller neighborhoods within the larger community that establish a level of intimacy which would be lost if they were all tossed into some gigantic version of Stuff and Bother, or wherever the threads get relocated.

Why do people join fraternities, sororities or other social organizations in college? It's because they feel more comfortable with people with whom they have a lot in common, people with whom they can 'let their hair down'. The situation is similar here.

GoO, GoP and O-in-E are very different from the now defunct Politics and Religion guilds. Politics and Religion are explosive subjects that are incredibly difficult to keep a lid on and it was inevitable that they led to conflict. GoO, GoP and O-in-E enhance fellowship and sense of community.

If the primary objective is the welfare of this forum as a whole, then these guilds should be allowed to remain as they are and they should feel free to discuss any topic from soup to nuts. They will keep the sense of community that is so important to the membership and continue to facilitate friendships among the members.


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## Celebthôl (Oct 22, 2003)

BOOOOOO DOWN WITH THE HEATHEN NÓM!!!!

Burn her at a stake!!! Shes wrecking the forum with stupid ideas!!!! 


Hehehe.


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## Elbereth (Oct 22, 2003)

You know, I was going to come in here with a sword in hand, fighting for the continued future of my dear Periaur....but I see that there is no need. So many have spoken so eloquently for me. But I do want to say a few things and I'll try not to repeat what has been said by my esteemed colleagues.

The fact remains that there are some people out there who feel that the guild of Periaur are not "Tolkien enough" for the forum. And although I am the first one to admit that there should be more Tolkien talk in the Periaur, I do not feel that we are so devoid of Tolkien discussion that it must be struck from the Guild section altogether. The Periaur's intention was from the very beginning to be a place for those of our generation to discuss Tolkien through our unique perspective...as well as being a place where we could discuss non-tolkien topics that pertain to our age group. But let it be known that Tolkien discussion was my top priority from the start. 

However, like WM... I take my cues from the membership...and for awhile, Tolkien discussion was not the top priority in the Periaur. And being a fair leader, I did not try to force Tolkien down thier throats. Force is not what a good leader does. However, we still kept up to speed in our "Tolkien-ness" with the introduction of the Interguild debates. I do admit we could have taken some of the Tolkien discussion from those debates back into our guild....but we didn't....and yet I don't think we should be damned because of this. 

Seeing the need to be more "Tolkien", I recently took it upon myself to shift the Periaur's focus back to Tolkien-related topics. Please understand that this shift is going to take time to happen...but it is falling into place now...and I would hope the rest of TTF would be understanding of this. 

I really think what everyone needs to realize is that although this is a tolkien forum, we are also a community...and in order to have a healthy and happy community here...we need to be able to have a balance of both Tolkien and non-Tolkien topics. 

This war of what should stay in the forum and what shouldn't stay is not going to help the situation here...it is only going to result in the loss of membership and growth. I see it happening already...how many more people do we need to loose before we realize that finger pointing is not the solution. Let the mods and WM do their jobs. They are the ones who ultimately decide what should stay and what shouldn't ...and if you have a problem with their decisions, then contact them directly rather than posting it so the entire forum can see and pick it apart. 

Let's not loose the spirit of community that has made this site so great.


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## Confusticated (Oct 23, 2003)

This was posted by Elbereth over in the Periaur Guild:


> After a brief discussion tonight with Talierin, our resident supermod...The Periaur will not be in danger of closure, as long as we can maintain a healthy level of Tolkien discussion in our guild.
> 
> WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? Simple...This means we need to open up more Tolkien related threads and keep these threads active.
> 
> ...



So now, in addition to asking what the long term puprose of the Forsaken Inn is supposed to be I have this question: Why hasn't GoO been given a last chance to make Tolkien a bigger percentage of their guild like Periaur have?

As one of the more frequent posters about the books, I can be sure they get more Tolkien threads started... of course it will be up to them to reply to the threads. I'd like to help lead them in this direction if this is what they want, and judging by the fact that they are Tolkien fans and that they did offer to be more about Tolkien, I think they just might pull this off. Can they have a chance? Say... one month to raise the Tolkien level, and our word to maintain that level? I am not really active in GoO outside the debate tournament but if they want more Tolkien in the guild I will be, there is no question about it.


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## Rhiannon (Oct 23, 2003)

As a very active member of the Outcasts, I can say that the Outcasts are more than willing to make book discussion a bigger part of the guild. We offered to origianlly, but as this didn't seem to be an option we submitted to being moved as a whole to the Forsaken Inn as the best alternative to being deleted, or having our threads scattered.

I have understood the reasoning behind most of the changes being made in the forum, and approved of many of them. I even thought I could understand and be satisfied with the reasoning behind the moving and 'un-guilding' of the Outcasts. But I must say that I find moving the Outcasts while allowing the Periaur Guild to remain is unfair, at the least. 

We are frankly willing to do whatever is necassary to keep our guild together; and while I at least am (or was) willing to be cooperative and abide by the will of the WM, I beg him to be consistent!


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## Elbereth (Oct 23, 2003)

Ok, I have tried to be patient here and bite my tongue...but now you guys have pushed me too far.

To any of the Guild of Outcast members who feel the need to attack the Periaur. BACK OFF! 

I know you are angry about loosing your guild...but don't take out your frustrations on other guilds. We are not responsible for the removal of your guild section and frankly I don't appreciate being lumped into the proverbial trash bin to be dumped to the curb! 

Yes, we are making an effort to be more Tolkien-like, to appease the Tolkien forum gods. Is it fair that the Outcast didn't have that same chance...maybe not...but that is not our problem! So Stop beating up on other guilds and sections because you didn't get a chance...it's not helping the situation. 













_Editorial note_
Just as a quick note to other members of the staff, and all concerned parties.
This post was reported as being offensive, but other than a slightly harsh choice of language I see nothing that is either malicious, mean spirited or in violation with any of the posted standards and bylaws. 
It is my opinion that this post should not be deleted or edited.

Thank you
RD


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## Talierin (Oct 23, 2003)

ENOUGH!

First you go on and on that since GoR and GoP were removed, that all off-topic guilds should be removed, or become non-guilds. So WM and I decide to do something with GoO first, and spend hours trying to figure it out, and decide to just move it. So what do you do? You start yet another argument thread and TTF just gets into another big mess. Well, why don't you realize that we can't do everything at once, and that MAYBE, just MAYBE we were going to get to Periaur eventually, and all the other non-tolkien guilds you wanted to see moved or whatever. I wish you peoples would make up your mind. I'm sick and tired of trying to figure out what will work best with whatever opinion you happen to have that day. And yes, I'm mad. I stay up late most nights talking to WM about how to fix TTF up, and this is all we get, a bunch of threads moaning about things.

And Nom, I seem to remember WM saying something about pming him with complaints.... hmm....


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## Confusticated (Oct 23, 2003)

I was not attacking Periaur. I guess you ignore the fact that I was trying to defend Periaur getting to remain a guild or at the very least their very own Inn with own title and description. 

Though I think TTF could be better without guilds (Tolkien guilds too and especially! As they keep a lot of good Tolkien content from being seen by everyone) I would not want them to be removed against the will of those guild members. That's just my personal opinion of how the book forums might be improved and everyone have easier acess to everything. But I know GoT does not want this, I have no idea about other guilds. I am so sure people wouldn't like the idea that I wouldn't even bother to ask them.

Anyhow I'm not trying complain yet I just want to know why Periaur get a chance that GoO did not, and simply want to know what you guys have in mind for the more long term purpose of the Forsaken Inn. That these questions are not being answered stinks. I woud not support the removal of GoO or Periaur against their wills, but when GoO doesn't get a chance that another guild is getting, it makes one wonder why.

I was asking why it happened that GoO did not get the chance, not complaining that it did hapen. I am suggesting that GoO get a chance. Now if these questions do not get answered I suppose I would PM Webmaster with an actual complaint or else just drop the matter and chalk it up to stuff beyond my reach.

Personally I can't even guess a good reason for why GoO is not getting the chance Periaur is getting. Is there something obvious that I miss, or is it just unfair and we have to live with it.

But I'll add, I'm pretty sure I never said that all off-topic areas should be removed, and I don' think any who did have posted in this thread. It is okay you can address me directly, because no one who suggested all off topic areas be removed has posted in this thread, I think?

PS: For those of the Periaur who actually support GoO in this thread, understanding the situation, thanks a lot.


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## DGoeij (Oct 23, 2003)

Well, we can either quarrel amongst ourselves and at the end be faced with the loss of all our Guilds or try and bring a better solution to the attention of the WM and Mods. I'm working on another plan, that would maybe work for both us Guild-members and the WM. I'll post it in Entmoot and add the link here later.

And as a side note, attacking Nom is useless and stupid. She stuck her neck out for her Guild as was to be expected and has some very valid points. If you fail to see that, read the thread again, instead of erupting in flames like the balrog you're not.


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## David Pence (Oct 23, 2003)

I think everyone should just wait until all the dust is settled. If you're unsure about something, send me a PM to ask for an explanation, before you jump to conclusions, and/or berate other members. If the Guild of Outcasts can find a way to become more Tolkiencentric, then perhaps they can be moved back to the guild catagory. Perhaps we can also find a way to make better use of these Inn fora, where these marginal Tolkien guilds won't be necessary after all.

In the mean time, I want all this bickering to stop. It's not accomplishing a thing, other than cause further discontent.


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## Snaga (Oct 23, 2003)

Nom I support GOO's right to exist as it wants. I never heard a word of complaint about it before now, and it staggers belief that someone can decide its a 'problem guild' like GOR and GOPolitics. I'm sorry if there were any of my fellow guild members who were unsupportive of GOO. To quote Agent Elrond: 'You will unite or you will die!'

As Baragund said


> GoO, GoP and O-in-E are very different from the now defunct Politics and Religion guilds. Politics and Religion are explosive subjects that are incredibly difficult to keep a lid on and it was inevitable that they led to conflict. GoO, GoP and O-in-E enhance fellowship and sense of community.


Yes, Tal, we can understand you may be tired and frustrated but that won't stop anyone calling you on a decision that sucks. That's not me being mean, that's just how things work. I sympathise if you are finding this all hard work but perhaps you should take some time out from all the changes. Take some time to consider, listen, and reflect.

The clamp down on all off topic discussion was a knee-jerk reaction in my opinion, since the most that most members really suggested was to not have Guilds set up for the discussion of contraversial topics specifically. Now it seems you are set on throwing the baby out with the bath water. This is your, and WM's perogative, but babies are like to scream at bath-time!

In the meantime its pretty annoying for the members to have their opinions dismissed as 'moaning'. Don't ever get a job in customer service ok?

'Hi, I ordered my steak rare and its burnt to a cinder. Can you change it?'
'Stop moaning or get out!'
'Say what?!'
'And by the way that will be 6 warning points for talking back to the waiter.'
'Yikes! I'm out of here!!'

The one thing that comes across really strongly is that you are seeing all the varying opinions of members as like one person constantly changing his/her mind. In reality we don't all agree!! Its your job to try to reconcile those differences, and I wish you luck. But I think you are rushing into things, and getting everyone mad at you, when it would be better to try and calm things down and take people with you.

In the meantime please consider this: Does anyone actually want to see GOO, or the Periaur messed with? I never saw anyone say that. But if they do, is anything more than bloody-mindedness because they didnt get their way with GOR/GOP?


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## Confusticated (Oct 23, 2003)

> If the Guild of Outcasts can find a way to become more Tolkiencentric, then perhaps they can be moved back to the guild catagory.



If _perhaps_ is the best we can get then that's that. If GoO wants to go for it they have my support. 

And thank you very much DGoeij. [incert heart icon here] I was going crazy over here at people's failure to see I was supporting Periaur too. 

When extremely furious my posts have a calm tone. When they sound angry... that is just minor frustration or trying to make a point.

So I guess this is it... If GoO are happy with this chance, that is. I do think that 'perhaps' is unfair and am sorry but I don't have the heart to question that after what just happened.

If GoO has a shot at coming back, then I guess it doesn't matter so much (as it relates to GoO anyhow) what the Long Term purpose of Forsaken Inn is, since for now it is perhaps just a temperary home for GoO.


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## DGoeij (Oct 23, 2003)

Anyone capable of discussing the future of Guilds in general, without shooting the messenger, join in:

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=369782#post369782


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## David Pence (Oct 24, 2003)

I've moved the Guild of Outcasts back to the guild section.


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## Rhiannon (Oct 24, 2003)

WM-
I wanted to apologise for posting hastily earlier. That was an unpleasant 6-year-old 'it's not fair' reaction, and I should have stopped and thought first.


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## David Pence (Oct 24, 2003)

That's fine.


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## Kailita (Oct 26, 2003)

Thank you very much Webmaster. 

I want just want to make something clear. I don't want to start or be part of any unneccessary arguments...and I'd like to make the job of the moderators and the WM himself easier if I can. I know there's a lot of stress and arguments and craziness going on about changing the forum, and the people who run things don't need anymore junk on their shoulders. I just want to keep my little place-to-belong intact and be fair to everyone, and try to be helpful at that. 

I have no bad feelings towards Periaur at all, as I said earlier. And as far as I know, neither do any of the other Outcasts, certainly including Nóm. There must have been a misunderstanding somewhere, because we really have nothing against the Periaur and definitely don't want them to be disbanded.

Anyway, thank you again, WM. Now what is the plan? Are we on probation status? We will definitely work on getting new Tolkien-related threads up.


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## Confusticated (Jul 24, 2005)

Talierin said:


> ENOUGH!
> 
> First you go on and on that since GoR and GoP were removed, that all off-topic guilds should be removed, or become non-guilds. So WM and I decide to do something with GoO first, and spend hours trying to figure it out, and decide to just move it. So what do you do? You start yet another argument thread and TTF just gets into another big mess. Well, why don't you realize that we can't do everything at once, and that MAYBE, just MAYBE we were going to get to Periaur eventually, and all the other non-tolkien guilds you wanted to see moved or whatever. I wish you peoples would make up your mind. I'm sick and tired of trying to figure out what will work best with whatever opinion you happen to have that day. And yes, I'm mad. I stay up late most nights talking to WM about how to fix TTF up, and this is all we get, a bunch of threads moaning about things.
> 
> And Nom, I seem to remember WM saying something about pming him with complaints.... hmm....




Hey now that some time has passed can you guys see that this wasn't ment as an arguement thread?

(_THIS_ is what an arguement provoker sounds like)

Any time I started a thread to try to get something made clear or to find out the reasoning behind a decision and to discuss it, this was the BS I got accussed of by you guys!

(Oh yeah and is it clear yet that Periaur was NOT being attacked by GoO! It was only compared to it!)

Oh yeah and that time I brought up that very old thread by HLG it was to compare what was being said about the posting trends of that time with the present posting trends and those who thought my intentions were otherwise even after I explained myself and pointed out the load of evidence THANKS A LOT! THANKS VERY VERY MUCH!!



> and that MAYBE, just MAYBE we were going to get to Periaur eventually



And just MAYBE nobody had said anything till this thread got started! And just MAYBE some people were wondering why GoO had been selected out alone so far! MAYBE?


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