# gondolin



## cab345 (Jan 2, 2004)

Hello, this is a very silly question, but I am wondering how many elves in total lived there. They say that gondolin had an army of 12.000 men, would that lead to a number of 30.000-40.000 elves total in that city? Tell me please what you think


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## Confusticated (Jan 2, 2004)

cab345 said:


> Hello, this is a very silly question, but I am wondering how many elves in total lived there. They say that gondolin had an army of 12.000 men, would that lead to a number of 30.000-40.000 elves total in that city? Tell me please what you think



Well Turgon took 10,000 to the Nirnaeth. From there we can mostly just estimate and guess.

First it depends how many soldiers you think Turgon left behind in Gondolin. I think he left few, for people like Glorfindel and Ecthelion and of course Turgon himself went out for the Nirnaeth. I think from this we can assume that the best of them went to that battle, meaning Turgon probably didn't leave too great a strength of warriors behind... at least not the best of his stregth. We can also try to figure what Turgon might have thought would be accomplished in the Nirnaeth. At this point he thought the time was right, he knew the plans of his brother and cousin... this was to be THE attack on Morgoth... this was to whip him good. If this failed, then how much hope would be left? And if he thinks this is THE attack... he'll take all he can bear to I think. Yet, Turgon would not leave his people with no defence. I tend to think he probably left only 2,000-5,000 men behind.... then we'll say there was 12,000 to 15,000 women, and they were a happy and growing people... I'll give them oh say... 10,000 - 15,000 children.

So I'd say at the hight of Gondolin's strength there must have been at least 34,000... easily as much as 45,000... perhaps even more than that... but I'd say there is no way it was less then 30,000.

But if Turgon had taken only half his strength to Nirnaeth.. the population of that city could easily be 50,000 - 60,000.. though I doubt he took only half his strength. My estimation of the child population may also be smaller than some other could estimate. I have about 1 child per every two adults... this is a rough guess and we might work on it a bit to make it more accurate.


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## Inderjit S (Jan 2, 2004)

Turgon took 2/3 of Fingolfin's folk as well as a greater host of the Sindar. This would amount to a lot of people. I would imagine 10,000 people was somewhere close to half of Turgon's forces. He tells Huor that Gondolin would not last long when it is apparent that they will lose the battle so he put quite a lot of faith in the Union of Maedhros, so he would have brought a significant amount of soldiers to battle.

We know of three lords of Gondolin attending the Nirnaeth, Maeglin, Glorfindel and Ecthelion. Glorfindel and Ecthelion were mentioned because they held the flanks to the right and left and Maeglin acted as the kings seems to have been the King's guard. So each lord of Gondolin mentioned seems to have played a memorable part. There may have been other Lords/Houses of Gondolin there too.


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## Confusticated (Jan 2, 2004)

Inderjit S said:


> I would imagine 10,000 people was somewhere close to half of Turgon's forces.



Reason behind this?




Inder said:


> He tells Huor that Gondolin would not last long when it is apparent that they will lose the battle so he put quite a lot of faith in the Union of Maedhros, so he would have brought a significant amount of soldiers to battle.



So by significant you mean about half?

Leaving half of his warriors at home doesn't really show much faith in my opinion, and I do not imagine that Turgon would find only half his warriors a significant number for the puprose at hand, which must have been to defeat Morgoth... or the least to wipe out his armies.


Another thought... since we never hear anything like 'Had Turgon taken more strength they might have won' or 'But that was only half the strength of that city' which might not mean anything, but if he had left half, I think it is something we might hear about considering all of Hithlum/Dor-lomin attended, and apparantly all the Feanorians out East... and that we hear about how Nargothrond sent only a small company. I just find the wording we have leaves the impression that there was not much more he could have brought... but I admit this isn't a sure thing.


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## Celebthôl (Jan 3, 2004)

Nóm said:


> Reason behind this?



Well if i remember rightly, which i rarely do, didnt the Sil say something like

"Turgon and opened his legure (sp) and released the entire might of Gondolin, fully 10,000 spears strong"

Or something along those lines?


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## Ancalagon (Jan 3, 2004)

This is a question for JeffF if I am not mistaken! This sort of question is his speciality, so you may wish to PM him and ask him for input


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## Húrin Thalion (Jan 3, 2004)

Confusticated said:


> Another thought... since we never hear anything like 'Had Turgon taken more strength they might have won' or 'But that was only half the strength of that city' which might not mean anything, but if he had left half, I think it is something we might hear about considering all of Hithlum/Dor-lomin attended, and apparantly all the Feanorians out East... and that we hear about how Nargothrond sent only a small company. I just find the wording we have leaves the impression that there was not much more he could have brought... but I admit this isn't a sure thing.



But I doubt that the battle could have been won, even if Turgon's strength had been greater. It's outcome was decided by the betrayal of the easterlings that effected the surrounding and slaying of Maedhros and his men. I doubt that Turgon's army could have done anything about that, or resisted all the hosts of Morgoth alone, even if it had been twice as strong.

Turgon was generally a very careful general, so he must have left enoguh men behind for the city to be secure. At the same time, he must have wanted to bring a powerful force with him to the Great Battle, so, 15.000 armed men, about as many women and possibly 5000 children.

Måns


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## Inderjit S (Jan 3, 2004)

Turgon was not imprudent. Nor was his realm the same as Hithlum of Himring. Turgon had to be aware of the safety of his people if his army the Union of Maedhros was defeated. 

But it would not be a 'total' failure, in the sense of Hithlum or most of Beleriand. If Fingon was defeated then his realm would have no hope of surviving Morgoth's onslaught. The same goes for Dor-Lómin, Falas, the Fëanorians etc. all their hopes rested on this battle. But Turgon was king of a hidden kingdom. Few knew where it lay (some said it was to the South of Beleriand) and his kingdom, unlike Fingon's or Maedhros's could live on. This time of peace for Gondolin may not of course be indefinite. He would have to think about the preservation of his realm and the protection of his people in the case of a evacuation. Therefore taking the vast majority of his armed forces would be unwise, and it doesn't sound like Turgon. 

Nargothrond was the most populous realm in Beleriand (Helped by the influx of the Fëanorians) but Morgoth seems to hold Gondolin in higher esteem, and it is the more legendary of the two. Therefore their force would have been huge. They would have suffered no losses in the Dagor Bragollach (unlike the others) or in any other wars of Beleriand, so their already significant Ñoldorin and Sindarin host would have been huge. 

For a (mini) description of Gondolin's population, you may be able to derive something from the no. of guards at the gates in 'Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin.'


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## Confusticated (Jan 3, 2004)

Celebthôl said:


> Well if i remember rightly, which i rarely do, didnt the Sil say something like
> 
> "Turgon and opened his legure (sp) and released the entire might of Gondolin, fully 10,000 spears strong"
> 
> Or something along those lines?



I was asking for the reason that Inder thinks Turgon took half, and I don't see how you answer that?

But no, it doesn't say entire might.


> For unsummoned and unlooked for Turgon had opened the leaguer of Gondolin, and was come with an army ten thousand strong, with bright mail and long swords and spears like a forest.


From 'The Silmarillion'.



Hurin Thalion said:


> Turgon was generally a very careful general, so he must have left enoguh men behind for the city to be secure.



Right, but how much is enough to leave that city secure? Inder would think it was about 10,000? Whereas I think it was 2,000-5,000. When you say 15,000 do you mean 15,000 men in all... Nirnaeth and Gondolin?



Inder said:


> Nor was his realm the same as Hithlum of Himring.


My point about Hithlum was not to show that all of Hithlum was there, therefore so would all of Gondolin be there. It was to show that in the case of Hithlum and Nargothornd... we are told how many (relative to the whole of the people of those realms... at least aopproximately) are there... which causes me to think that had Turgon sent merely half, we would hear about it. That is all. Not saying Gondolin should have been comptelely emptied. 



Inder said:


> For a (mini) description of Gondolin's population, you may be able to derive something from the no. of guards at the gates in 'Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin.'



I'd rather have _many_ description ... 

I personally could not do much of value with that guard information.

But if someone wants to bring in FoG and the size of the city and plain, may be able to also get an estimate that way. I wouldn't call it more valuable than an estimation based on his 10,000... but if the two independantly agree - all the better. 

With info from Quendi and Eldar, dates in the Annals, the number of Edain given in PoME, and close attention to statements throughout the versions of the Silmarillion (for example... in QS we hear that near half the gnomes dwelt in the East marches) and elsewhere in HoME which give any hint to compare the size of populations... one could do a lot of estimating First Age populations of Beleriand realms.


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## Inderjit S (Jan 3, 2004)

> "Right, but how much is enough to leave that city secure? Inder would think it was about 10,000? Whereas I think it was 2,000-5,000. When you say 15,000 do you mean 15,000 men in all... Nirnaeth and Gondolin?"



I would say he would leave (at least) 8 thousand Men behind. If I was to guess then I would say he left 12,000 soldiers behind, or at least 12,000 Men (though the women could fight too, at need) behind for Gondolin's defence. 

So Gondolin would have a military force of somewhere 18-22, 000 at the time of the Nirnaeth. Losses in the Nirnaeth may have been replenished by new generations and the remnants of Fingon's army who joined with Turgon's. 



> It was to show that in the case of Hithlum and Nargothornd... we are told how many (relative to the whole of the people of those realms... at least aopproximately) are there...



Yes, I see. But Hithlum was a forerunner in the war and Nargothrond's force was noted to emphasise their part in the battle (as Gwindor lead the premature attack) and their incoperation with the Fëanorians. The Fëanorians of Nargothrond were of course disgusted at the actions of their lords, but they may have formed a large part of Nargothrond's force nonetheless, though of course Gwindor was not a Fëanorian. 

Check out M. Marinez's essay 
Elves By The Numbers if you wish.


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## Confusticated (Jan 4, 2004)

Hmm.. Martinez didn't say much on Gondolin... just that he thinks it was still well defended... and this is what we're trying to figure out.

I'll bend to your lowest estimate of 7,000 men left behind.

That gives us 34,000 of adults... where would you estimate the number of children? I go with the idea of elves taking about a hundred years to grow, I am guessing you do too?

But there is a lot of stuff we can look at here... to maybe help us guess how many children there were. If we go with some generic fomula... we can agree on about how many children each elven couple had, what age they were at the time of the first child, and how far apart each child was... then for the hard part... to do soemthing like Martinez did... calculate the population of Gondolin by looking at Q&E and going forward... BUT we'd still have some serious guess work... especially regarding the number of Sindar. But if we do it this way we can get an extremely rough idea on how much of Gondolin were perhaps past the age in which they would have children.... doing all this using Laws and customs for our criteria of how many, how often and at what age elves have children.

We could independantly work out some numbers and then compare.


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## Inderjit S (Jan 4, 2004)

*runs away screaming at all the math*

No, really, some _guesstimates_could be made, but they would be just that, as you note. 

Such long work is strenuous, is there not somebody we could plagiarise and then present their work as our own.


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## Confusticated (Jan 4, 2004)

Inderjit S said:


> *runs away screaming at all the math*


That's right... I forgot you do not enjoy math. I however do, so I see enjoyment in:



Inder said:


> ...some _guesstimates_could be made, but they would be just that, as you note.



Indy'd



Inderjit said:


> Such long work is strenuous, is there not somebody we could plagiarise and then present their work as our own.



Hehe... how about I PM you with what I get and then you can post it as yours.


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