# When exactly did Galadriel bring the Mallorn nuts to Lórien, having received them from Gil-galad?



## Elaini (May 30, 2020)

I'm writing a few RP profiles where it feels important to know the point where the transformation from Lindórinand to Lothlórien happened.


----------



## Elthir (May 30, 2020)

A Galadriel thread! Is it my birthday?

Anyway, as one of the _Galadriel Obsessed_, I delved into this question years ago. Right now, all I can recall is that the idea was proving problematic (in my opinion). I know that's not helpful at the moment, but right now, I promised to go out and get lunch . . . dart! I mean drat!

🐾
🐾


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (May 30, 2020)

Hmm. Well, if Elthir doesn't know, I don't know who would -- possibly Alcuin, though there are other wise heads about.

PS: Nice to see you here, Elaini! I hope it means you'll be posting more!


----------



## Elaini (May 30, 2020)

Elthir said:


> Anyway, as one of the _Galadriel Obsessed..._



Heh... welcome to the club! I have been trying to figure out many details of her story, such as when and where Celebrían was born, did Celeborn go to Lórien with the two before Eregion was attacked, etc. etc. I'll be interested in what you think of all this.



Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> PS: Nice to see you here, Elaini! I hope it means you'll be posting more!



I never planned to leave completely. I have asked around in many places, yet here I've gotten some more coherent answers for my Tolkien questions.


----------



## Elthir (May 30, 2020)

Elaini said:


> Heh... welcome to the club! I have been trying to figure out many details of her story, such as when and where Celebrían was born, did Celeborn go to Lórien with the two before Eregion was attacked, etc. etc. I'll be interested in what you think of all this.




The Second Age is indeed a sticky period with respect to Galadriel, in my opinion.

Anyway, I wrote the following so long ago that even I'm not sure I still agree with all of it! 

My notes were more detailed, but I'll post it here and argue with myself later, if need be. I wrote it in response to a friend Tyrhael, who had noted Haldir's statement: "Alas for Lothlorien that I love! It would be a poor life in a land where no mallorn grew. But if there are mallorn-trees beyond the Great Sea, none have reported it."

Galin/Elthir once dared to post:

____________________

I think when Tolkien was drafting _The Lord of the Rings,_ the mallorn trees of Lothlorien were originally conceived of as being present from very early on. A draft passage for the Song of Nimrodel reads: _"An Elven-lord he was of old // before the birth of men // when first the boughs were hung with gold // in fair Lothlorien"_

Here Amroth was seemingly lord of Lothlorien from early in the First Age, and the trees are yet golden. Granted this is poetry, and admittedly Tolkien's revision made the timing more vague in any case, but in _The Lord of the Rings_ itself it is revealed that Amroth had a house built upon Cerin Amroth, where we find mallorn trees.

So it would seem that during Amroth's rule there were mallorn trees already -- yet Tolkien's later note has Galadriel introducing these trees into Lothlorien (Tolkien even fiddles with the names of Lorien to reflect this) -- and Galadriel did not become the Lady of Lothlorien until after Amroth was lost.


As Tyrhael noted above, Tolkien imagined that the trees would not grown in Gil-galad's Lindon, and that there were mallorn trees in Numenor and Tol Eresea as well. Tyrhael also noted Haldir's (author-published) comment that none have reported if there are mallorn trees across the sea however.

If there were mallorn trees across the sea wouldn't Galadriel be aware of this? At least it seems possible. And if she ever tried to grow them in Lindon, why did she fail; or did she not try?

Was Nenya a factor? It's true that Galadriel could employ Nenya in the Third Age, but she didn't take up the rule of Lothlorien until nearly 2,000 years had passed!

Where did she live before this? Lindon I would think -- at least at times -- considering that Celeborn was said to have had a fief there under his rule, at least at some point (also considering a statement about Celeborn in Appendix B). It would seem a bit odd to me that with Eregion gone, Galadriel never spent any considerable time in Lindon in the Third Age.

A later draft has Galadriel "_returning"_ to Lothlorien in the Second and Third Ages, and Elven visits can last long. This gives Galadriel a chance to plant mallorn trees before she takes up rule there with Celeborn.

_I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew:
Of wind I sang, a wind there came and in the branches blew.
Beyond the Sun, beyond the Moon, the foam was on the Sea,
And by the strand of Ilmarin there grew a golden Tree.
Beneath the stars of Ever-eve in Eldamar it shone,
In Eldamar beside the walls of Elven Tirion.
There long the golden leaves have grown upon the branching years,
While here beyond the Sundering Seas now fall the Elven-tears._

Hmm. A golden tree of some sort, anyway.

____________________

And back to 2020 . . .

🐾


----------



## Elthir (May 30, 2020)

One wonders a bit why Galadriel would not have grown the mallorns in Lindon, yet in Lórien _before_ she came to rule there.

Anyway, since I'm arguably disagreeing with Tolkien, a bit, rather than actually answering your question, to try and distract from that, here are some nice pictures of a Galadriel themed baby wrap:

 

🐾


----------



## Olorgando (May 30, 2020)

Two thoughts.

About mallorns not growing in Lindon, I would speculate that they were not compatible with the salty coastal ambient conditions. At one extreme of salt tolerance there are the mangroves, which can grow in saline and brackish water. These are limited to the tropics and sub-tropics mainly between about the latitudes of 25° N and 25° S. So perhaps mallorns were more towards the other end of the salt-tolerance spectrum, the intolerant side. But then I'm not clear about the geographic extent of Lindon. In the lee of the Blue mountains, to their east, conditions might have been favorable, but possibly the Elves of the Grey Havens stuck to the coasts.

About Nenya. The main if not sole function of the Three Great Elven Rings was preservation, with some variations, otherwise it would have sufficed to create three identical rings. Tree growth is retarded by negative external influences, like drought, storm damage, parasites of all sorts, lack of sunshine etc. The effect of Nenya could have been to make the mallorns more resistant to all such negative external influences, so their growth would not be hindered.


----------



## Elthir (May 31, 2020)

I thought of that with respect to Lindon, but in _Unfinished Tales_ (A Description of Numenor) there doesn't seem to be any caveat that the Mallorn trees could not grow close to _Eldalonde_ in Numenor, with _Nísimaldar_ (which, generally speaking, included Mallorn trees) being near the haven of Eldalonde.

Not a great argument of course, but the general description is: "All about that place [Eldalonde the Green], up the seaward slopes and far into the land, grew the evergreen and fragrant trees that they brought out of the West, and so throve there that the Eldar said that almost it was fair as a haven in Eressea."

Okay "the green" . . . but not one Mallorn until far into the land?

And, we could guess how "near" these Mallorn trees were to the Numenorean haven, but then we are speculating that, if this is a factor, maybe they grew far enough away from one haven, but in Lindon . . .


----------



## Halasían (May 31, 2020)

Elaini said:


> I'm writing a few RP profiles where it feels important to know the point where the transformation from Lindórinand to Lothlórien happened.


Are we looking at a point in time here? Not sure if there is a consistant source for that exists as it seems Galadriel's history has been tweaked by Tolkien himself in his writings. As a lover of Galadriel ever since I first read the trilogy back in 1975, I've always loved reading about her.

One of the best write-ups on this is presented in The encyclopedia of Arda.
The compiled entry for Galadriel has been completed for a while now. I present it to you here...



> *Galadriel
> Lady of Lórien*
> 
> 
> ...





Elaini said:


> Heh... welcome to the club! I have been trying to figure out many details of her story, such as when and where Celebrían was born, did Celeborn go to Lórien with the two before Eregion was attacked, etc. etc. I'll be interested in what you think of all this.


The Encyclopedia of Arda is rather quiet on Celebrían:



> III 109 is the date of Celebrían's wedding to Elrond, so she clearly must have been alive for some time before this. One source (_Unfinished Tales_ III 4, _The History of Galadriel and Celeborn_) mentions her as early as II 1350, as shown in the timeline above. The text in question (_Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn_) is, however, a manuscript that was very considerably revised by Tolkien. We cannot therefore be sure that this very early date was intended to stand.





If there are other sources that details more than this I have not found them. Maybe Alcuin has something to say on this beautiful subject?


----------



## Olorgando (May 31, 2020)

Awesome post, Northern Ranger. For once, I suspect that even Alcuin might find little to add. 🤐


----------



## Elthir (May 31, 2020)

_The Encyclopedia of Arda_ is, generally speaking, a great resource, but their Second Age section on Galadriel is a patchwork of texts plus drops of conjecture. Nothing wrong with that, considering the encylopedia is trying to construct an internal version . . .

. . . I'm just saying, for example, that my version would be different, and given the texts involved, I think there might be a number of versions depending upon who wrote and compiled a given account.


----------



## Olorgando (May 31, 2020)

I still adore Cate Blanchett's portrayal of Galadriel within the limits that PJ set upon it.
And of course Cate Blanchett was not 6'4" as mentioned above - that would have made her almost as tall as Christopher Lee in real life!
In TH the film, they did apparently try to compensate in the very non-canonical "White Council meeting at Rivendell in 2941 TA while Thorin & Co. were there" by giving her ridiculously high plateau shoes (hidden beneath her garment). I don't know that making a character have the leg-length of a stork is such a good idea (good ideas being something the PJ crew had in about zero parts of all six films).


----------



## Elthir (May 31, 2020)

According to author-published text (RGEO), Galadriel and Celeborn crossed the Blue Mountains together and went to Eregion. But as far as another journey to Lorien, after the fall of Eregion . . .

. . . there are two _conflicting_ ideas here, and no way (as far as I know at this point) to date one before the other: A) after the fall of Eregion either Galadriel went with Celeborn to Lorien -- or B) Galadriel was in Lindon at some point, where Celeborn joined her later (after he left Lorien).

An internal puzzle

Also, from _The Mirror of Galadriel:_ "For ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin, I passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat." -- which seems to be a remnant of Celeborn as a Nandorin Elf that never got revised.

Long point short: it's complicated. And I love it 🐾


----------



## Alcuin (May 31, 2020)

In matters regarding Galadriel, I always have the highest respect the opinions of Elthir, as I did for Galin before him.

Perhaps I can add a few matters to consider. First, Galadriel was _ambitious_, no less so than any other of the rulers of the Noldor. If we respect Tolkien’s opinion that she was banned from returning to Aman (the position Tolkien held when he wrote _LotR_ and _RGEO_, that he held until the last two years of his life, when he significantly altered her backstory; see especially _Letter_ 297: “The [Noldorin] Exiles were allowed to return – save for a few chief actors in the rebellion of whom at the time of the _L[ord of the ]R[ings]_ only _Galadriel_ remained.” To this passage there is a footnote, “At the time of her lament in Lórien she believed this to be perennial, as long as Earth endured. …” This was apparently composed in the second half of 1967), then we can understand that Gandalf the White lifted her ban at the end of the Third Age because of her long resistance against Sauron but particularly because she rejected the One Ring when Frodo offered it to her. (See especially _Letter_ 320.) And although her refusing the Ruling Ring might be “founded upon previous thought and resolve,” (_Letter_ 246) it was still a difficult decision for her: thus her peculiar performance at the end of “Mirror of Galadriel” when Frodo proffers her the Ring. She either anticipates that her sins will be forgiven, or else that if (or when) her body (_hröa_) dies, she will return to Aman. (This latter possibility seems to me unlikely: see the recent post regarding the summons of unhoused Elven spirits by Mandos. In the event of her death, Galadriel would have returned to Aman anyway.)

However fragmentary or disorganized Tolkien’s writings outside _Lord of the Rings_, I think we can gather some consistent threads and themes. Galadriel’s pride and ambition caused her to leave Lindon, where (her nephew?) Gil-galad ruled the Noldor. Now Gil-galad by all accounts was born in Middle-earth. Galadriel was far older, a generation or two older than Gil-galad: submitting to his rule might have been difficult. She had, according to some accounts, already left Beleriand before the end of the First Age in the company of her lover Celeborn. At any rate, she seems to have been in Eregion with Celebrimbor and the Mírdain before the end of the first millennium of the Second Age. When Sauron arrived disguised as Annatar, Galadriel warned both Gil-galad and Celebrimbor not to trust him. Gil-galad accepted her warning and refused to admit Annatar to Lindon. Celebrimbor, however, put his trust in Annatar, and Galadriel was forced to leave Eregion. She went further east, emigrating to Lórien sometime after Second Age 1200, probably by passing through Khazad-dûm.

Mallorn were native to Valinor. The Eldar of Tol-Eressëa, friends of the Dúnedain, brought mallorn trees from their island to Númenor, where they grew along the Bay of Eldanna. Tar-Aldarion gave mallorn nuts to Gil-galad. While we can make arguments that Lindon was unsuitable for mallorn for one reason or another, we cannot disregard the possibility that they did not grow there because the Valar did not permit it: those Eldar who remained in Lindon had declined the opportunity to immigrate to Aman. Mallorn might only make them more comfortable in Middle-earth. Gil-galad gave some to Galadriel, and on her sojourn in Lórien, she planted them there, and they prospered. It is quite possible, I think, particularly in light of her song,
_I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew, ..._​that they also prospered there under some enchantment of Galadriel’s.

I propose that Galadriel and Celeborn dwelled in Lórien from early in the second millennium of the Second Age. It is most likely, I think, that she planted mallorn in Lórien then. She might also have tried to plant some in Eregion, apparently without success. But they grew in Lórien. I gather that the mallorn Sam planted at Bag End in place of the Party Tree cut down at the order of Saruman grew with the blessing of the Valar.


----------



## Halasían (May 31, 2020)

Elthir said:


> _The Encyclopedia of Arda_ is, generally speaking, a great resource, but their Second Age section on Galadriel is a patchwork of texts plus drops of conjecture. Nothing wrong with that, considering the encylopedia is trying to construct an internal version . .



Indeed. Most of what wasn't directly written as canon tweaked by the various alternate takes and edits by Tolkien himself is pretty much conjecture.

It's good to read your conjecture on the timeline as well. 

And always like reading the Black Beast of *Arrrggghhh*'s take on things as well. 
The consensus is there isn't any set date of when _exactly_ Galadriel brought the Mallorn nuts she received from Gil-galad to Lórien, as there really isn't any set date of exactly when Galadriel went to Lorien. This is where you take some artistic license in a roleplay and pick a date within the estimated window per wat is known and conjected.


----------



## Elthir (May 31, 2020)

Alcuin said:


> In matters regarding Galadriel, I always have the highest respect the opinions of Elthir, as I did for Galin before him.



I have the same respect for your opinions Alcuin. And thanks!


----------



## Alcuin (May 31, 2020)

It occurs to me that, just as Treebeard reminisces that Lórien was once called Laurelindórenan before Lothlórien before just Lórien – the “Valley of the Singing Gold” to the “Dreamflower” to just the “Dream”, “fading, not growing” as he put it – Faramir also notes its much older name in his inquest of Frodo before the Rangers of Ithilien following their ambush of the Southrons.
“So then you passed through the Land of Lórien? Laurelindórenan it was named of old…”​Faramir’s observation is prompted after Frodo tells him that Boromir’s “golden belt was given to him in Lothlórien by the Lady Galadriel.” So all three names are used between the two, neither of whom is privy to Treebeard’s remarks to Merry and Pippin. It seems to me that both “Lothlórien” and “Lórien” were still in current use, though the shorter name was the more common; and while “Laurelindórenan” had fallen out of use, it was recent enough that Faramir knew it, indicating (to me at least) that it must have been used sometime well into the Third Age, perhaps until after Amroth’s death in Third Age 1981. 

Two other items of note here. First, Haldir tells the Company that, “[I]f there are mallorn-trees beyond the Great Sea, none have reported it.” Perhaps Elthir knows the history of the texts better than I, but since Tolkien eventually settled upon the mallorn coming to Middle-earth from Númenor, to Númenor from Tol-Eressëa, and to Tol-Eressëa from Eldamar, Haldir seems woefully ill-informed: Even a Silvan Elf might be expected to know the ultimate source of the mallorn! 

Another point – this is completely off-topic, but I noticed it as I searched my notes for Faramir’s comment in relation to Treebeard’s – that Treebeard seemed mildly irritated by Celeborn’s warning against entering Fangorn Forest:
[Pippin asked,] “Why did Celeborn warn us against your forest? He told us not to risk getting entangled in it.”

“Hmm, did he now?” rumbled Treebeard. “And I might have said much the same, if you had been going the other way. Do not risk getting entangled in the woods of _Laurelindórenan_!”​BTW, Elthir, that’s a good, short timeline of the Second Age. I think the later writings (after 1967 and the publication of _Road Goes Ever On_) about Galadriel a complete mess; CJRT did good work reporting them as well as he could. I could nit-pick the timeline and when Galadriel left Eregion, but I won’t; the only observation I have is that Galadriel herself says in “Mirror of Galadriel” that
ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we [Galadriel and Celeborn] have fought the long defeat.​I assume “the mountains” means the Ered Luin, indicating that she and Celeborn, or at least she alone – which seems to me most unlikely: Celeborn, I expect, accompanied her – left Beleriand well before the end of the First Age. And if Galadriel were expelled from Doriath after her uncle Thingol learned the truth of the Kinslaying at Alqualondë, which seems to be correct, then I think it likely Celeborn left Doriath in order to remain with Galadriel. Near the end of the _Lord of the Rings_, Celeborn tells Aragorn, “May your doom be other than mine, and your treasure remain with you to the end!” It is normally assumed that he is wishing Aragorn a long life and then eternity with Arwen, but it might be that he knows Galadriel will soon return to Aman, leaving him in Middle-earth, where he chooses to stay. Celeborn’s continued presence in Middle-earth is another matter; but the “treasure” to which he refers might be Galadriel instead of Arwen.


----------



## Elthir (May 31, 2020)

Halasían said:


> The consensus is there isn't any set date of when _exactly_ Galadriel brought the Mallorn nuts she received from Gil-galad to Lórien, as there really isn't any set date of exactly when Galadriel went to Lorien.



And to muddle the matter further, there are web sites (or were) that take heavily from the text _Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn_ too. Of course I'm working within my approach to canon as well, and am ready to "disagree" with Tolkien at times -- and here, I'll put it this way: I'm not at all sure Tolkien "well considered" his history of Galadriel (such as it was) before he injected this role for her (introducing the mallorn trees) . . .

. . . while other folks take a more inclusive approach (so to speak) with respect to Tolkien's posthumously published texts. I guess I'm still more on the side of accepting this as "fact" in my Middle-earth . . . but starting to shift?


----------



## Elthir (Jun 1, 2020)

Long "footnote" for my attempt to reconcile RGEO with The Mirror of Galadriel:

The mountains as noted in _The Lord of the Rings_ are never named there of course, and are already arguably confusing: the Company had just crossed, albeit "under", a very notable mountain range (quite notable to the Lindar on the Great Journey too) to "get to" Galadriel...

... but she doesn't mean these misty mountains? 

Okay she might have gone round, or be generally referring to both Ered Lindon and the Misty Mountains, but if it's arguably vague, why not the Ered Wethrin in Beleriand? And it appears that this statement might have begun in reference to the Mountains of Valinor (Christopher Tolkien's commentary), granted with different wording, but why not mentally change the range yet again to fit the later idea of Celeborn the Sinda of Doriath?

Two objections I've thought about (and have run into on line):

1) What's so notable about Galadriel's crossing of the Ered Wethrin (to get mention here)?

2) Ere the falls of Nargothrond and Gondolin... when (if we imagine the Ered Wethrin), it's also ere the_ founding_ of these realms !


My answers are (in reverse order)

The falls of Nargothrond and Gondolin didn't happen on the same date. Galadriel's reference is arguably a general one to evoke "long long ago" especially to the ears and mind of the four Hobbits. If I said (something like) "these people came to England before the Fall of Rome" I could simply be generalizing by using a well known event of the deep past. It merely suggests "they arrived a long time ago" for the minds of folks who are not history buffs and don't care when Rome was founded. They get the idea. 

As for the notability objection: Galadriel need not have passed over the Mountains of Aman, and it seems to me that there was a pass into the Echoing Mountains as well -- the Noldor took it, and a massing of orcs appear to travel fairly far to take it -- but it's not very convenient considering where Galadriel ended up, if one is then going to the feast and on to Doriath.

In other words, crossing Ered Wethrin could have been Galadriel's first experience with crossing high mountains. Cough.

I know it's not what Tolkien meant, but 

I've also run into an alternate attempt at another chat forum, that maybe Galadriel left Beleriand before the fall of Nargothrond and Gondolin -- but returned, and later crossed over the Blue Mountains with Celeborn.

So far I like my admittedly not-that-great-attempt better. Big surprise!


----------



## Elthir (Jun 5, 2020)

As I can't let this thread fade so quickly ⏳

I'm going to add mention of a couple arguably "significant" texts that I mostly ignore here.

The very late, adumbrated text in _Unfinished Tales_ in which Galadriel is not part of the Rebellion, and sails with Celeborn, here a Teler of Aman (both ideas contradicts author-published text). In this account it's said that they did not join in the war against Angband, which they judged to be hopeless under the ban of the Valar and without their aid, and that Galadriel and Celeborn's counsel was to withdraw from Beleriand and build up a power eastward -- but having no hope of this being accepted, G&C depart over Ered Lindon before the end of the First Age, later rejecting the "permission" of the Valar to return West.

Ahem.

And a major component in CG&C, and one which I think seems to underpin at least parts of this chronology, is that Amroth is Galadriel's son; again, a rejected notion -- though as I say, I have teased out one line (or idea) from CG&C at least, with respect to hiding the Three from Sauron.

🐾


----------



## Elthir (Jun 5, 2020)

> Near the end of the _Lord of the Rings_, Celeborn tells Aragorn, “May your doom be other than mine, and your treasure remain with you to the end!” It is normally assumed that he is wishing Aragorn a long life and then eternity with Arwen, but it might be that he knows Galadriel will soon return to Aman, leaving him in Middle-earth, where he chooses to stay.



Here I'm going to trust in the young wisdom of Elanor Galbasi 

"Elanor was silent for some time before she spoke again. "I did not understand at first what Celeborn meant when he said goodbye to the King," she said. "But I think I do now. He knew that Lady Arwen would stay, but that Galadriel would leave him. I think it was very sad for him. And for you, dear Sam-dad". Her hand felt for his, and his brown hand clasped her slender fingers. "For your treasure went too. I am glad Frodo of the Ring saw me, but I wish I could remember seeing him." 

JRRT (unused) Epilogue, Sauron Defeated

🐾


----------

