# OK....Why no Guard at Mt.Doom?



## TommyMagic (Jan 5, 2004)

Right i havent read the book for a while and i cannot remember if its correct etc but as far as i know there were never any guards at the enterance to Mt Doom.

Now i understand that Sauron NEVER envisioned that they were attempting to destroy the ring. BUT having said that he must have known that it could only be destroyed there and that therefore it was a small minor risk. With the amount of orcs that Mordor had at its disposal, why werent at least one or two orcs posted there on shifts etc? It just seems odd. Or maybe one cave troll chained there lol

And thinking of that, why was there even an enterance to Mt Doom in the first place? What was the reason, why not seal it up and make sure that the ring could NEVER be destroyed!

Just thought it was interesting!


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## Scatha (Jan 5, 2004)

What good would two orcs or a cave troll have done?
Remember that this was a volcano, with many cracks that lead to the lava, in the middle of the most hostile environment known to all races.

To securely guard Mt Doom, there would have been another army surrounding it and many more posted at every cave to the outside (shelob would have loved the new amount of food, I presume), plus guards at every crack leading into the fires of this volcano.

Instead of one large army, Sauron would have had to raise at least two, to follow your logic.


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## Confusticated (Jan 5, 2004)

Well according to Gandalf Sauron had previously believed the Ring had been destroyed. But since Sauron never worried about this happening in the WotR, I believe Gandalf was wrong. I also believe he was wrong for another reason... but I wont get it that now.

I guess the best explaination for why Sauron did not set a watch on the mountain is that the idea never came into his mind. He had a poor understanding of 'good', he was absolutely a cynic in his view of others, taking them to have the same motives that he had himself... so to him, I guess we are supposed to think, anyone and everyone would love to wield his Ring. And if anyone were to take an action that didn't have the effect of selfish benefit to that person, then they must be a fool... for they are going about being selfish all wrong! My short answer is that Sauron was just a fool.

But then Mordor itself was watched well enough that if even the idea of the Ring being destroyed had entered Sauron's mind... that someone would seek to do it was so unlikely that when coupled with the fact that getting to the mountain without being spotted is just as unlikely.... the thing is near impossable.

It just wasn't viewed as a threat by Sauron, as much as it should have been.

And because the road into the chamber was regularly repaired, and was Sauron's own road, it must be that he still used that place (perhaps to forge more things of evil)... so the door would not have been blocked. 


And here's a couple thing Tolkien wrote about Sauron. Can be found in 'Notes on motives in the Silmarillion' in HoME 10.



> Sauron had, in fact, been very like Saruman, and so still understood him quickly and could guess what he would be likely to think and do, even without the aid of palantiri or of spies; whereas Gandalf eluded and puzzled him. But like all minds of this cast, Sauron's love (originally) or (later) mere understanding of other individual intelligences was correspondingly weaker; and though the only real good in, or rational motive for, all this ordering and planning and organization was the good of all inhabitants of Arda (even admitting Sauron's right to be their supreme lord), his 'plans', the idea coming from his own isolated mind, became the sole object of his will, and an end, the End, in itself.





> ...at the Downfall of Numenor, when Aman was removed from the physical world, in this sense: Valar (and Elves) were removed from effective control, and Men under God's curse and wrath. If he thought about the Istari, especially Saruman and Gandalf, he imagined them as emissaries from the Valar, seeking to establish their lost power again and 'colonize' Middle-earth, as a mere effort of defeated imperialists (without knowledge or sanction of Eru). His cynicism, which (sincerely) regarded the motives of Manwe as precisely the same as his own, seemed fully justified in Saruman. Gandalf he did not understand. But certainly he had already become evil, and therefore stupid, enough to imagine that his different behaviour was due simply to weaker intelligence and lack of firm masterful purpose. He was only a rather cleverer Radagast - cleverer, because it is more profitable (more productive of power) to become absorbed in the study of people than of animals.



Underline added for emphasis by me.


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## Niirewen (Jan 5, 2004)

By Scatha:
_Remember that this was a volcano, with many cracks that lead to the lava_

(forgive me, I have not yet figured out how to quote with this version)

I thought there were only three entrances into Mt. Doom? I recently read it in HoME IX.. let me see if I can find a quote..

From Chapter I of HoME IX:
_Oroduin has three great fissures North, West, South in its sides._

Anyway, back on topic. Well, Nom already very thoroughly answered the question, and I'm in agreement with her. Basically, the thought never entered his mind. He was a fool. He never even dreamed that someone would plan to destroy the ring.


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## Úlairi (Jan 5, 2004)

Nóm beat me to the punch with those quotes, but there's another in _Letters_.



> _The Letters of JRR Tolkien_
> 131 *To Milton Waldman**
> 
> "There was another weakness: if the One Ring was actually unmade, annihilated, then its power would be dissolved, Sauron's own being would be diminished to a vanishing point, and he would be reduced to a shadow, a mere memory of malicious will. But that he never contemplated nor feared. The Ring was unbreakable by any smithcraft less than his own. It was indissoluble in any fire, save the undying subterranean fire where it was made - and that was unapproachable, in Mordor."*



So, Sauron never contemplated or feared the destruction of the Ring because Mordor was unapproachable (in his eyes). He also knew that it's power of lust was so great that he believed no one was capable of destroying it (and in that, as far as we know, he was correct).


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## Legolam (Jan 6, 2004)

To be fair, even if he did contemplate the idea of the Ring being destroyed, the fact that someone (he probably thought an army of Elves or Men) would have to walk through Mordor and through all his amassed armies would be enough to persuade Sauron that Mount Doom was safe without guards. If he'd thought it was going to be destroyed, he would NEVER have thought 2 hobbits would make it over Gorgoroth.


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## Úlairi (Jan 6, 2004)

Besides, there were only two entrances to Mordor (from the West anyway), making Mordor nearly impenetrable. Sauron had his own pet spider to look after the other way in as well!  He probably thought that no one would be able to get past Shelob!


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## macaskil (Jan 6, 2004)

Legolam said:


> To be fair, even if he did contemplate the idea of the Ring being destroyed, the fact that someone (he probably thought an army of Elves or Men) would have to walk through Mordor and through all his amassed armies would be enough to persuade Sauron that Mount Doom was safe without guards. If he'd thought it was going to be destroyed, he would NEVER have thought 2 hobbits would make it over Gorgoroth.



Yes - but the Orcs captured Frodo on the borders of Mordor. Wouldn't that
have alerted Sauron?


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## Arvedui (Jan 6, 2004)

Why should it? Frodo was captured, wasn't he? So according to Sauron, there was one thing less to worry about, as it showed that none could enter Mordor.
No-one could tell him that Frodo had been released and that there were two stray hobbits in Mordor.
As have been already stated: Sauron could not contemplate that anyone would be able to destroy the Ring. His greatest 'fear' was that someone would use it for their own purposes.


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## Freawine (Jan 6, 2004)

Aren't we forgetting Gandalf's plan? To trick Sauron into thinking that the Ring was in Gondor and that the act of leading a small army to the Black Gates was a sign of the foully of the bearer? 



> I still hope for victory, but not by arms. For into the midst of all these policies comes the Ring of Power, the foundation of Barad-dûr, and the hope of Sauron. (...) ...he knows that his precious thing which he lost has been found again; but he does not yet know where it is, or so we hope. And therefore he is now in great doubt. For if we have found this thing, there are some among us with strengh enough to wield it. That too he knows. For do I not guess rightly, Aragorn, that you have shown yourself to him in the Stone of Orthanc? (...) He is watching. He sees much and hears much. His Nazgûl are still abroad. They passed over this field ere the sunrise, though few of the weary and sleeping were aware of them. He studies the signs: the Sword that robbed him of his treasure re-made; the winds of fortune turning in our favour, and the defeat unlooked-for of his first assault; the fall of his great Captain. His doubt will be growing, even as we speak here. *His Eye is now straining towards us, blind almost to all else that is moving*. So we must keep it. Therein lies all our hope. This, then, is my counsel. We have not the Ring. (...) Without it we cannot by force defeat his force. But we must at all costs keep the Eye from his true peril. (...) As Aragorn has begun, so we must go on. We must push Sauron to his last throw. We must call out his hidden strengh, so that he shall empty his land. We must march out to meet him at once. *We must make ourselves the bait, in hope or in greed, for he will think that in such rashness he sees the pride of the new Ringlord: and he will say: "So! he pushes out of his neck too soon and too far. Let him come on, and behold I will have him in a trap from which he cannot escape. There I will crush him, and what he has taken in his insolence shall be mine again for ever."*



_in_, Book Five, Chapter IX, _The Last Debate_ (emphasis mine)

It's not as if Sauron thought that the entrances to Mordor were secure and none would ever enter, at least not necessarily; it was a matter of thinking that what happened - his defeat at the Pelennor Fields, the fall of the Witch-King, etc. - were signs that _something_ was in Gondor; it was a matter of seeing in the acts of Aragorn, leading an army to the entrance of Gondor and demand things, the influence of the Ring in his bearer: greed, infamy, pride! 

The idea was to focus Sauron's attention in the Black Gates, draw out his forces (and Frodo and Sam saw it happening when they were in there) so that the two hobbits could have a clear way to Mount Doom. It worked, in as much as we are told the following:



> ...then he [Frodo] saw, rising black, blacker and darker than the vast shades amid which it stood, the cruel pinnacles and iron crown of the topmost tower of Barad-dûr. One moment only it stared out, but as from a great window immeasurably high there stabbed northward a flame of red, the flicker of a piercing Eye; and then the shadows were furled again and the terrible vision was removed. *The Eye was not turned to them: it was gazing north to where the Captains of the West stood at bay, and thither all its malice was now bent, as the Power moved to strike its deadly blow *



_in_ Book Six, Chapter III, _Mount Doom_ (emphasis mine)

It seems clear, then, why there was no guard at Mt. Doom: Sauron believed the Ring was elsewhere, not in Mordor, and to where he thought it was he focused all his might.


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## TommyMagic (Jan 6, 2004)

i understand that he is looking elsewhere etc

I think that the theory of him being a fool is the most realistic really, i mean 3 cracks to the only place the ring can be destroyed, the amount of orcs available, 2 at each just in case something happens.

He was a fool for not at least noticing a VERY slight possibiltity that the ring may be attempted to be destroyed.

And i thought that it was well known that a hobbit had the ring? Didnt Saruman know that and thats why the Urks captured Merry and Pippin? Therefore Sauron would have known that the ring was in the hands of a half-ling? So why would it beyond belief that Hobbits would be in Mordor.

Especially seeing as they found one IN mordor, now the sensible thing to do straight away would be to think "well a halfling has the ring, a halfling has been caught lurking around in Mordor coming through a sneaky way, there is a small chance that another may have got away with the ring and they are heading to the direction of Mt Doom, perhaps i should just post a couple orcs or so at the enterances?"

He has an idea Halflings have the ring, he knows at least one has got as far as shelobs lair, i mean its surely an obvious thought that if a halfling has a ring and a halfling is found at Shelobs lair, the halfling had the ring, i mean why else would he be in Mordor. If the ring isnt on that halfling (frodo) then i guess there's a chance another is loose somewhere. It just seems obvious really.

Correct me if im wrong on anything, i might be!


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## Arvedui (Jan 6, 2004)

Not nescesarry wrong on anything, but perhaps overlooking something: the Power of the Ring. Remember that Isildur, a 'pure' Númenorean was unable to destroy the Ring. Sauron knows this, and why would he think that any others would be able to destroy it?
And the one Hobbit they caught did not carry any Ring, probably making Sauron feel that he had his back free, and could consentrate his searchlight....sorry: Eye on the Army of Gondor and Rohan.


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## Freawine (Jan 6, 2004)

Yes, Sauron knew the Ring came to the hands of a hobbit; however, what he did not know was if that same hobbit *kept* the Ring. In other words, he knew where things had begun, not how they had developed, at least not entirely. We are told the following by Gandalf:



> The Enemy, of course, has long kwon that the Ring is abroad, and that it is borne by a hobbit. He knows now the number of our Company that set out from Rivendell, and the kind of each of us. But he does not yet perceive our purpose clearly. *He supposes that we were all going to Minas Tirith*; for that is what he would himself have done in our place. And according to his wisdom it would have been a heavy stroke against his power. *Indeed he is in great fear, not knowing what mighty one may suddendly appear, wielding the Ring, and assailing him with war, seeking to cast him down and take his place*. That we should wish to cast him down and have _no_ one in his place is not a thought that occurs to his mind. That we should try to destroy the Ring itself has not yet entered into his darkest dream.



_in_, In Book Three, Chapter V, _The White Rider_ (emphasis mine)

So as far as Sauron is concerned he sees the Fellowship not as a quest to destroy the Ring, but as one to use its power to overcome him. As such, the Ring would have to go to the most obvious point of resistance to Mordor: Minas Tirith! Now, Sauron appears to have lost track of the Ring in Rauros and the next big clue he gets is Pippin in Orthanc's palantir, who is believed to be the Ring Bearer. If any of the Nazgûl ever reached Isengard it was found taken by the enemies of Sauron, hence if the Ring was ever there it was gone. And what's the next big thing he knows of? The return of Isildur's heir! of the kin of the one that deprived him of his precious: Aragorn fits into the profile of a mighty one that "_may suddendly appear, wielding the Ring, and assailing him with war, seeking to cast him down_", for why would the last in the line of Isildur reveal himself if not to defy Sauron? And what could make him dare to do so better than anything else but the Ring? So he decides to attack as soon as possible; Frodo and Sam reach the path to Shelob's Lair just in time to see the armies of Mordor passing by on their way to the first assault. But things went differently from what the Dark Lord expected: his armies were defeated, the wind changed and draw the clouds away, the Witch-King fell. In this he sees something exceptional and, as 2+2 equals 4, a sign of something equally expectional being worked by his enemies so, as far as he knows, the Ring can only be in Minas Tirith. He thinks he's getting a final proof of that when the armies of Gondor and Rohan muster before the Black Gates, an act of infamy, greed, pride, sort of _hybris_, which in his translates as the infamy produced by the Ring's influence over a leader: Aragorn, the new King, the same man that presented himself through the palantir, the heir of Isildur, the same who in the past took the Ring. It all fits, and that's exactly what Gandalf expects, and he knows what to expect from Sauron, as showed when asked by Imrahil:



> 'If the Dark Lord knows so much as you say, Mithrandir, will he not rather smile than fear, and with his little finger crush us like a fly that tries to sting him?
> 'No, he will try to trap the fly and take the sting'



_In_, Book Five, Chapter IV, _The Last Debate_

As for the hobbits, Sauron knew there was more than one in the Fellowship, so it is not as simple as a Shire-dweller has the Ring; plus, he seems to have them in low consideration, i.e., uncapable of wielding his precious. It appears he considered them as little more than spies, as the words of the Mouth of Sauron to Gandalf show:



> What use you find in them [hobbits] I cannot guess; but to send them as spies into Mordor is beyond even your accustomed folly. (...) He was dear to you, I see. Or else his errand was one that you did not wish to fail? *It has.*



_in_, Book Five, Chapter X, _The Black Gate opens_ (emphasis mine)

If he was expecting the hobbit's quest to be the destruction of the Ring, it would hardly be correct to state that Frodo had failled, as Sauron's precious was not found with him. Why then guard Mount Doom if he (thought he) knew where the Ring was? Why protect yourself from a move from the sting if you know where the fly is? Besides, at least for some time he never considered the possibility of someone attempting to destroy it: his initial idea was that they would use to it fight him, hence it would have to go to Gondor, an idea that gets supported by the failure of Isengard and Aragorn's revelation, latter by the defeat in the first assault and Isildur's heir's infamy. As far as he knows, there's no other place where the Ring can be but in the hands of the descendent of the same man that took it from him in the Second Age.


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## Úlairi (Jan 6, 2004)

Yes, all extremely valid points, but we've got to remember the brilliance of Sauron, he was accounted wiser than Melkor (although that wouldn't be too hard I suppose), but Sauron was one smart cookie. What has always bothered me is that he never sensed Sam use the Ring, in his own land!!! Also, he didn't give too much thought to the capture of Frodo, he thought he was a spy, what would that accomplish, the only information a spy could possibly obtain in Mordor is the number of his armies, which they already knew outnumbered them greatly! Sauron too, would have known this. In other words, why didn't he sense a trap? Why didn't he sense the Ring on the other hand? He could sense it all the way on Amon Hen, a few thousand leagues closer to Mordor and he couldn't sense it?


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## Freawine (Jan 6, 2004)

Úlairi,

Now those are _really_ good questions...at least as far as my (little) knowledge goes. I'll dabble with them as I read the _Lord of the Rings_ again and will certainly add several post-its on it. Meanwhile, would like to hear what others here have to say about it.


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## Úlairi (Jan 7, 2004)

No need to worry Freawine, as far as my T-knowledge goes (and I like to think it goes pretty far), Tolkien doesn't like to dabble himself too much on the topic of Sauron's downfall (but I could still be wrong nevertheless, as I indeed still have much of HoME to read).


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## Greenwood (Jan 7, 2004)

Freawine said:


> Now those are _really_ good questions...at least as far as my (little) knowledge goes. I'll dabble with them as I read the _Lord of the Rings_ again and will certainly add several post-its on it. Meanwhile, would like to hear what others here have to say about it.



Amon Hen was the Seat of Seeing and hence a very special place and the Cracks of Doom at Orodruin was the site of the Ring's forging, another very special place. In all the times Frodo wore the Ring, those were the only places where Sauron seemed to be aware of him wearing it; and even on Amon Hen it did not seem to be a very specific knowledge of where he was, but a more generalized sense:


> And suddenly he felt the Eye. There was an eye in the Dark Tower that did not sleep. He knew that it had become aware of his gaze. A fierce eager will was there. It leaped towards him; almost like a finger he felt it, *searching for him. Very soon it would nail him down, know just exactly where he was. Amon Lhaw it touched. It glanced upon Tol Brandir* -- he threw himself from the seat, crouching, covering his head with his gray hood.
> .....
> ..... He took the Ring off his finger. He was kneeling in clear sunlight before the high seat. *A black shadow seemed to pass like an arm above him; it missed Amon Hen and groped out west, and faded.* ....
> 
> _from The Breaking of the Fellowship in FOTR, emphasis added _



Thus, Sauron is aware that someone, in the vicinity of the Falls of Rauros, or at least in that direction, was wearing the Ring, but it is not a specific knowledge of exactly who and where. At no other time or place (until Mount Doom -- more about that in a second), does Sauron ever seem aware of anyone wearing the Ring. As for Mount Doom, not only is this the site of the Ring's creation, and arguably, the location where its power is greatest, but when Frodo puts it on there he * claims it for his own*, something no one has ever done before!


> And far away, *as Frodo put on the Ring and claimed it for his own*, even in Sammath Naur the very heart of his realm, the Power in Barad-dur was shaken, and the Tower trembled from its foundations to its proud and bitter crown. The Dark Lord was suddenly aware of him, and his Eye piercing all shadows looked across the plain to the door he had made; *and the magnitude of his own folly was revealed to him in a blinding flash, and all the devices of his enemies were at last laid bare.* ...
> 
> _from Mount Doom in ROTK, emphasis added_



When Sam wears the Ring in the pass of Cirith Ungol, it is not a special location such as Amon Hen or Mount Doom and he does not claim it for his own.

As for why send spies into Mordor when you already know you are out numbered, from a military standpoint, what better reason for trying to gather intelligence on your enemy to look for weaknesses? From Sauron's standpoint, perhaps Islidur's heir and his allies are looking to see if an attack into Mordor through Cirith Ungol would be more worthwhile than assailing the Black Gate itself? In a war almost any intelligence you can gain about your adversary is valuable.


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## Fechin (Jan 12, 2004)

Every interesting never thought about it. I can see why he never thought about though. I may have just said hey Nazgul number 9 go spin around Mount Doom for awhile. But I may not have thought about it ethier so the moral think about all view points. LOL


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## Inderjit S (Jan 17, 2004)

Simple, he never ever thought anyone would destroy the Ring. He could not think about things he deemed impossible. Maybe it was imprudent of him. Orks, constantly tended the road from Barad-dur to Sammath Naur, so he would have had some use for it. But what would be the point of guarding a pseudo-fortress in the middle of your realm. He didn't except anyone to get past the Black Gate, Minas Morgul, Shelob or Cirith Ungol, or to not be seen on the road from Udun to Barad-dur. Frodo and Sam were very lucky of course, they were not spotted for some time on the road from Durthang to Udun and not at all on the road from Barad-dur to Udun. There was a war going on and the last troops had issued from Barad-dûr a few nights before when Sam and Frodo escaped from the cross-roads in the entrance to Udun. 

Sauron thought the Ring was with one of the captains. He paid little attention to the peril in his realm until it was too late. I expect Sauron was pre-occupied with the death of the Witch-King, the appearance of the stern-faced stranger and Narsil in the Palantir, the battle and loss at Pellenor, and the march of the Captains.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Jan 20, 2004)

TommyMagic said:


> Right i havent read the book for a while and i cannot remember if its correct etc but as far as i know there were never any guards at the enterance to Mt Doom.
> And thinking of that, why was there even an enterance to Mt Doom in the first place? What was the reason, why not seal it up and make sure that the ring could NEVER be destroyed!
> 
> Just thought it was interesting!



Ya got a point! But if there had been guards at the entrance, or no entrance at all, think of the complications to the story... The only thing I can think of to answer your questions: The story's the way that Tolkien wanted it to be.

Lotho


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