# Orcs from Elves



## grendel (Dec 21, 2003)

It is my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) that Orcs were originally, um, "bred" from Elves who had been captured by Melkor... I guess he could not create life but could corrupt what already existed.

So I'm wondering just how much they have in common... specifically, do Orcs not die of natural causes, or get sick, etc? I wouldn't think they would "fade," as evil and greed never shrink, only grow. Anyway, I'm interested in other opinions on this.


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## Tar-Elenion (Dec 21, 2003)

JRRT never seems to have come to a firm conclusion on this. He variously wrote that Orcs were from 'corrupted' Elves, Men, beasts and even Maiar or some combination of the above. It was even suggested they were automatons of a sort.


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## Lantarion (Dec 21, 2003)

Yes it's one of those Tolkienic mysteries we've all become so fond of.. 


I personally hold the Published Silmarillion to be the authorative work on basically all accounts. Of course, I haven't read much of the HoME, and I understand that _Last Writings_ has a substantial amount of new lore, written after the publications of the LotR and Sil.
Anyway, the Silmarillion says that Orcs have been bred from Elves by Melkor; and that's the theory I'm sticking by unless more compelling evidence arises to say otherwise. 
And it also makes literary sense; Tolkien constantly pits the two races (Orcs vs Elves) against each other; the inherent irony of this is very interesting, and for a Tolkien-scholar it adds a new dimension to the texts and histories, just knowing that the two bitter enemies are, in some sick and distant way, related to one another. 

Also, as Hobbits have evolved from Men, it makes sense that another of the few humanoid races of Arda would evolve from the second (of rather, First ) main race of Eruhíni: Elves. Just to balance the equation, so to speak.

My opinion on Orcs (more like a rickety hypothesis) is that they are not immortal, because Melkor could only corrupt and twist Eru's creations; also, immortality plays a very significant role later on, or rather death, as either a Gift or a Doom, and it seems to be one of the most important traits issued to any race by Ilúvatar. I don't think Eru would let Melkor 'duplicate' the Elves to use for evil purposes; or maybe he would, I don't know. 
But my opinion is that they do get sick and contract diseases etc.; but they must have a stronger constitution and metabolism than, say, Men, because of the horrid conditions they work and exist in. Not many a Man could live for long in such conditions without dying of some ailment; except perhaps those of Númenórean race. 

No I don't believe theat they 'fade'. IMO they have a set lifespan, not very long, maybe 2/3 of a human lifespan; and then they die naturally (or in battle as most of this cannon fodder race would!).


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## Sarah (Dec 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by grendel _
> *It is my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) that Orcs were originally, um, "bred" from Elves who had been captured by Melkor... I guess he could not create life but could corrupt what already existed.
> 
> So I'm wondering just how much they have in common... *



They have pointy ears!


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## Arvedui (Dec 27, 2003)

From _HoME X, Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed, Orcs:_


> It remains therefore terribly possible there was an Elvish strain in the Orcs. These may then even have been mated with beasts (sterile!) – and later Men. Their life-span would be diminished. And dying they would go to Mandos and be held in prison till the End.


This is the conclution of an essay that Tolkien himself wrote on the origin of Orcs. It is thorough and a rather good read, and as long as JRR Tolkien himself came to the conclution that Orcs does indeed have an Elvish strain in them, then that is good enough for me.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Dec 27, 2003)

grendel said:


> It is my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) that Orcs were originally, um, "bred" from Elves who had been captured by Melkor... I guess he could not create life but could corrupt what already existed.
> 
> So I'm wondering just how much they have in common... specifically, do Orcs not die of natural causes, or get sick, etc? I wouldn't think they would "fade," as evil and greed never shrink, only grow. Anyway, I'm interested in other opinions on this.



If you want something more than just conjecture, you'll have to read Tolkien, and he wasn't very specific. One well-used writer's trick is to set up something vaguely horrible in the reader's mind, and then leave him to come to his own conclusions about specifics. I think that's what T did in that regard.

Lotho


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## Gothmog (Dec 27, 2003)

The question of where Orcs came from crops up often. I have always had a little doubt in the back of my mind over this. After all it is nowhere stated unambiguously that they did in fact come from Elves. Even in the Silmarillion it is only given as something that the Elves believed not as something that was true. It also seems that the last thought of Tolkien on this matter was that Orcs "Were not from elves".

But let us look at another view on this question. Just some food for thought.

The Silmarillion: Chapter 1


> For it is said that after the departure of the Valar there was silence, and for an age Ilúvatar sat alone in thought. Then he spoke and said: 'Behold I love the Earth, which shall be a mansion for the Quendi and the Atani! But the Quendi shall be the fairest of all earthly creatures, and they shall have and shall conceive and bring forth more beauty than all my Children; and they shall have the greater bliss in this world. But to the Atani I will give a new gift.' Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, *beyond the Music of the Ainur*, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest.


 Morgoth's Ring: The Music of the Ainur and the Coming of the Valar.


> $38 After the departure of the Valar there was silence for an age, and Iluvatar sat alone in thought. Then Iluvatar spake, and he said: 'Behold I love the world, and it is a mansion for Elves and Men. But the Elves shall be the fairest of earthly creatures, and they shall have and shall conceive more beauty than all my children, and they shall have greater bliss in this world. But to Men I will give a new gift.'
> $39 Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to fashion their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, *beyond the Music of the Ainur*, which is as fate to all things else. And of their operation everything should be, in shape and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest. Lo! even we, Elves, have found to our sorrow that *Men have a strange power for good or ill*, and for turning things aside from the purpose of Valar or of Elves; so that it is said among us that Fate is not master of the children of Men; yet are they blind, and their joy is small, which should be great.


 Now considering these two posts. Which of the children would better serve Melkor's purpose? According to both the Sil and Morgoth's ring the Elves were bound by the Music of the Ainur. Any change that Melkor wanted to make to them had to be within that Music. However, Men were not bound by the Music. They could go beyond it. In the second quote the Elves themselves note the power within Men.
This would give more leeway to Melkor in altering them and it is possible that Men corrupted into Orcs would retain at least some of the freedom to go beyond the Music in their actions. This would make them even greater foes to face than corrupted Elves.


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## Bucky (Dec 30, 2003)

_I personally hold the Published Silmarillion to be the authorative work on basically all accounts. Of course, I haven't read much of the HoME_

Yeah, me too......

Until recently.
There's actually a wealth of information in HoME 10 & 11 that constitutes the published Silmarillion & thensome.

Christopher Tolkien actually says in HoME 11 _The War Of The Jewels_ that HE & his cohort MADE UP 'Of The Ruin Of Doriath', totally changing JRRT's storyline & his regret afterwards in doing so........

Honestly, what he did really makes better sense than what JRRT had there - Tolkien said in his notes he had to revise it anyway - at least the 'how to kill Thingol?' part, although the switching Beren for Caranthir part in attacking the Dwarf horde probably makes less sense to me.

But, I think CT just felt he 'messed' with the author's written work instead of arranging & editing.


Sorry to derail the train of thought here, but I wanted to bring up that while I find much of HoME useless and/or unreadable like my freind here apparently does, the last 3 volumes, 10-12, along with UT, hold a wealth of valuable & close to the published form of further information.

My problems with the other volumes is it's too archaic (Lost Tales) or too different from the published version (earlier Sil). As for the volumes on TLOR, I have the finished TLOR by JRRT himself, what do I need Trotter for?


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## Lantarion (Dec 30, 2003)

Gothmog you make an excellent point; in fact an almost unrefutable point, to me anyway.
Melkor wanted to dominate and rule and be in power and wield power; that would not be possible if he had used Elves, because everything he would have done would have been predetermined. (Gosh that sounds stupid)
So technically I thhink in the end Melkor probably used Men; but in relation to everything in the LotR and its themes (not metaphors or anything, just themes), the 'Orcs from Elves' theory fits much better, for reasons stated in my previous post here.


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## Gothmog (Dec 30, 2003)

Lantarion said:


> Gothmog you make an excellent point; in fact an almost unrefutable point, to me anyway.


High praise indeed .



> but in relation to everything in the LotR and its themes (not metaphors or anything, just themes), the 'Orcs from Elves' theory fits much better, for reasons stated in my previous post here.


Now the main reason for the 'Orcs from Elves' theory is, it seems, due to the great hatred between the two races while there seems to be little of this between Orcs and Men.

Now, the question must be asked. Why is there such great enmity between Orcs and Elves?

This is easy to see from the Elvish side. When first they met orcs the orcs tried to kill them and all too often succeeded. But it is not so clear from the Orcish side. But if you take a moment to think of Who sent the the orcs against Beleriand. It was Melkor. Sauron may well have been the main worker in producing the orcs during Melkor's stay in Mandos but it was Melkor himself that was the main driving force behind everything.

So Why would Melkor be so much against the Elves?
The Silmarillion: Chapter 6: Of Feanor and the Unchaining of Melkor


> Now in his heart Melkor most hated the Eldar, both because they were fair and joyful and because in them he saw the reason for the arising of the Valar, and his own downfall.


 With such a view of the Eldalie would not Melkor instil his own hatred of the Elves in such creatures as the orcs no matter who they were bread from. And is it not most likely that the Elves with no idea of even the possibility of Men could only think of other Elves as being the "Raw materials" for such creatures?

Therefore, the 'Orcs from Elves' Theory does indeed fit. But so also does this.

However, this is only something that could be seen in hindsight. From the point of view of the charaters in the Sil and LotR. it is most likely that would not even be thought of.


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## Arvedui (Jan 2, 2004)

Gothmog said:


> Which of the children would better serve Melkor's purpose? According to both the Sil and Morgoth's ring the Elves were bound by the Music of the Ainur. Any change that Melkor wanted to make to them had to be within that Music. However, Men were not bound by the Music. They could go beyond it. In the second quote the Elves themselves note the power within Men.
> This would give more leeway to Melkor in altering them and it is possible that Men corrupted into Orcs would retain at least some of the freedom to go beyond the Music in their actions. This would make them even greater foes to face than corrupted Elves.


I really like (or rather dislike, but you understand what I really mean) your theory, but as far as I can see, it has one major flaw:

Orcs were around before Men awoke.

They were fighting the Firstborne in Middle-earth from the moment Fëanor set his foot on dry land after his infamous boating-trip, and this happened before the Sun and the Moon was yet devised.
So if this theory can have any value, then Morgoth (or rather Sauron) must have found Men before they awoke!


> It also seems that the last thought of Tolkien on this matter was that Elves "Were not from orcs".


If you are referring to Myths Transformed, then I don't agree. IMO, the writing I was quoting in my previous post, was later than


> 'Alter this. Orcs are not Elvish'


But I could of course be wrong.


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## Gothmog (Jan 2, 2004)

Yes there is a major flaw in the the theory. However, that flaw is not


> Orcs were around before Men awoke.


but rather in the fact that since CT compiled the published Sil. from the writings he knew of and that he could decipher at the time, we have no certain knowledge of just when Men did in fact awaken. Had JRRT been able to put the Sil into a final set fully ready for publishing without any need of editing by any one else. Then perhaps we could indeed get a true, or at least a Truer view on this matter.

From the point of view of the stories in the Sil. it must be remembered that these stories are Elvish Lore passed down through Manish Myth. Therefore even in the context of the stories themselves there is some question as to the accuracy of the infomation within. Much Lore as to the begginings of Men was lost long before they even met the Elves. So the exact number of generations between the awakening and the Meeting in Beleriand is not even a matter for guessing.

It may be that the truth is other than we have looked at. Perhaps even if orcs were indeed there before Men awoke there was still no Elvish strain in them. We have little knowledge of just how intelligent the early orcs were. They may well have been beasts that had similar appearences to the Children of Iluvater (something like the primates of our world) bred up to the point that they could be directed by Maia of Melkor to seem to be more than they were. These then could have been mated with Men after they awoke. This is not put forward as an answer to your point but only some more food for thought as to how orcs could have been created.


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## Lúthien Séregon (Jan 3, 2004)

I personally think that Orcs were probably originally humans, not Elves, because of the question of their immortality and immunity to health. Doesn't the Silmarillion somewhere state that only Iluvatar could take away the gift of Immortality to the Elves? To make Orcs have only “natural” life-spans Melkor must have been able to do what only Eru could do - unless I’ve missed something in the Sil that suggests otherwise or something in the HoME that refutes this . Would it be possible for Elves to have their life-spans reduced, as with Men/humans?


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## Barliman Butterbur (Jan 3, 2004)

Tar-Elenion said:


> JRRT never seems to have come to a firm conclusion on this. He variously wrote that Orcs were from 'corrupted' Elves, Men, beasts and even Maiar or some combination of the above. It was even suggested they were automatons of a sort.



What was interesting to me (and I didn't think of it until I saw the Barad-Dur orcs in ROTK), that there really seemed to be three or four definite "flavors" of orcs: The little gibbering guys in Moria, the big, more intelligent Uruk-Hai, the mindless Berserkers, the ordinary Saruman foot-soldier. But then when I got a look at the Sauron-soldier types, they seemed to actually look like hideously malformed elves! I spotted blue eyes and blond hair here and there, taller, thinner. Gave me the creeps! I think PJ was really paying attention there!

Lotho


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## Eledhwen (Jan 3, 2004)

As Arvedui quoted from HoME 10, Tolkien's own 'research' into the origins of orks led him to believe that the Great Orcs (like the Great Goblin in The Hobbit) were rebellious spirits, who allied themselves to Morgoth, unable to take any but hideous form. Other Orcs were bred and cross-bred from whatever or whoever Morgoth could take and corrupt to his purposes, willing or unwilling. This included Men and beasts.

However, I don't see how he could use Elves. They would never willingly submit, and would suffer torture or grief unto the unhousing of their fea before agreeing to serve Morgoth or Sauron.


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## Arvedui (Jan 3, 2004)

Lúthien Séregon said:


> I personally think that Orcs were probably originally humans, not Elves, because of the question of their immortality and immunity to health. Doesn't the Silmarillion somewhere state that only Iluvatar could take away the gift of Immortality to the Elves? To make Orcs have only “natural” life-spans Melkor must have been able to do what only Eru could do - unless I’ve missed something in the Sil that suggests otherwise or something in the HoME that refutes this . Would it be possible for Elves to have their life-spans reduced, as with Men/humans?


Before going into detail, I will post the quote from _Myths Transformed_ once again, as I believe it answers a number of questions raised:


> It remains therefore terribly possible there was an Elvish strain in the Orcs. These may then even have been mated with beasts (sterile!) – and later Men. Their life-span would be diminished. And dying they would go to Mandos and be held in prison till the End.


 The last lines would answer you question concerning lifespan, I think: If Orcs came purely from Elves, then they would go to Mandos be held in prison until the End. If they were Elven spirits later mated with Men, then their lifespan would have been diminished. So Iluvatar does not take away Elven Immortality, they are 'just' imprisoned forever.

And to keep the argument with Gothmog going, I ask you to take a close look at the first sentence: "It remains therefore terribly possible..." I find the use of the phrase 'terribly possible' very interesting. IMO, Tolkien tried hard to prove to himself that Orcs were NOT Elves, and failed. It could of course be some sort of wishful thinking on my part, but I really don't think so.



> However, I don't see how he could use Elves. They would never willingly submit, and would suffer torture or grief unto the unhousing of their fea before agreeing to serve Morgoth or Sauron.


 No, they would never willingly submit, but there are clear indications in _The Silmarillion_ that a number of Elves were caught by Melkor before the Oromë found them by Cuivienen.


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## Gothmog (Jan 3, 2004)

> And to keep the argument with Gothmog going, I ask you to take a close look at the first sentence: "It remains therefore terribly possible..."



Ok I did, and I brused by dose on the screen doing so!! 

Possibility-
1 The fact or condition of being possible.
2 Something that may exist or happen.

Terribly _adv_
Terrible _adj_
1 Appalling, distressing
2 Extreme, hard to bear.
3 Very bad

So all that is said is that there is a possibility but not how great this possibility is and that the possibility is Terrible, which is a reasonable view to take on this. Don't forget, something that is very unlikely is still a possibility and can be a Terrible one. At no time that I am aware of is it stated that this was a Probability which would give a far greater likelyhood of it having happened.


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## grendel (Jan 6, 2004)

I found the passage in the Silmarillion that originally caught my attention:

"Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressea, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes. For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Iluvatar; and naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance of life, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion in the Ainulindale before the Beginning: so say the wise."

I don't have any resources, other than LotR and the Sil; and this seems to me to be pretty definitive. It also states that they were "after the manner" of the Elves, which made me wonder about other things, like the undying part... I guess this doesn't really add anything new, other than a quote. Carry on!


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## Gothmog (Jan 6, 2004)

This is the main point of the argument infavour of Orcs from Elves. However, the part that should be noted most is


> Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressea


This is not a definative statement but says that this is what the Elves believed to be true not what is true.

At no point is there any certain statement as to the true origin of the Orcs. There are only hints which may or may not show the correct way to look at this.


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## grendel (Jan 6, 2004)

well now... see? There's an excellent point, and I bleeped right over it. Thanks!


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