# Men -  Greatest Instruments of Eru & Morgoth?



## Confusticated (Mar 13, 2004)

Could Men be Iluvatar's greatest instrument against Morgoth?


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## Lantarion (Mar 15, 2004)

Seeing as how the Quendi really stole the show from all the other races of Arda in the First Age, it would be nice that Men would also have some higher purpose..  But I do think that Men do have some important 'task' in Eä, yes.
It seems to me that Eru meant for the Elves, with their deathlessness and potentially extremely powerful _fëar_, to be the explorers and discoverers of Arda; the 'very life' of the Earth, as I believe they are even called (because 'they do not die until the World ends' basically). Because their destiny in the End is already given and known.
In that sense it would seem to be the task of Men to first learn to appreciate Arda during their short lifetimes, and then to go on and discover the realms 'set apart' by Ilúvatar for them, which in a sense is their natural place, predetermined for them just as Arda is predetermined for the Quendi.

But then again it's odd to think that Elves, if they are the conoisseurs of Arda, don't really exhibit any real passion for knowledge or finding out new things, whereas it seems to be an inherent characteristic of Men. Then again perhaps all the Elves depicted seem to show only admiration instead of real wide-eyed inteerest towards nature in the LotR and Sil because all of whom are depicted in that context are already hundreds if not thousands of years old.


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## Confusticated (Mar 15, 2004)

Lantarion said:


> Seeing as how the Quendi really stole the show from all the other races of Arda in the First Age, it would be nice that Men would also have some higher purpose..  But I do think that Men do have some important 'task' in Eä, yes.
> It seems to me that Eru meant for the Elves, with their deathlessness and potentially extremely powerful _fëar_, to be the explorers and discoverers of Arda; the 'very life' of the Earth, as I believe they are even called (because 'they do not die until the World ends' basically). Because their destiny in the End is already given and known.
> In that sense it would seem to be the task of Men to first learn to appreciate Arda during their short lifetimes, and then to go on and discover the realms 'set apart' by Ilúvatar for them, which in a sense is their natural place, predetermined for them just as Arda is predetermined for the Quendi.



This is a good idea for an Arda without Melkor or a fallen race of Men. I imagine in that case the elves were to enjoy Arda, and eventually teach Men, and act as a link between Valar and Men. Many of them did end up doing this. I'd say the Vanyar were the ones do the least of it.

But given that the race of Men did fall, and death was no longer viewed as a gift, could they really fulfill a purpose as simple as learning about Arda and then moving on? They become so quick to fall into evil, and do far more damage to themselves and others than the elves do, or than unfallen Men probably would have. They can not even stay at peace with one another. Where there is one battle between elves there are countless between men. Wars fought for whatever reason... because of disputes over land, wealth, or just plain greed. Fighting eachother because someone married a woman of shorter lifespan. Are these things that drive Men to war not a result of their Fall as a race? Aren't they doing Morgoth's will when they fight with eachother and cause destruction to everything in Arda? When they hate eachother and fall into evil so quickly? If Morgoth is still at work in Arda, through what if not Men?

Men have a real battle within themselves about good and evil. Is this Morgoth vs. Iluvatar? I do think that it is. But just like to hear others' thoughts.



Lantarion said:


> But then again it's odd to think that Elves, if they are the conoisseurs of Arda, don't really exhibit any real passion for knowledge or finding out new things, whereas it seems to be an inherent characteristic of Men.


Could the men have made that Miruvor? Lothlorien ropes? Lembas? Could they speak with animals and trees? Feanorean lamps and seeing stones? Swords that glow? Hear messages in the waters? Surely the elves discovered things about the world. I'd say they cared more about discovery for the sake of understanding and creating art with skill for the sake of beauty, whereas Men care about discovering for the sake of greed and survival. 




Lantarion said:


> Then again perhaps all the Elves depicted seem to show only admiration instead of real wide-eyed inteerest towards nature in the LotR and Sil because all of whom are depicted in that context are already hundreds if not thousands of years old.


Yeah... I agree.


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## Lantarion (Mar 16, 2004)

Nóm said:


> Could the men have made that Miruvor? Lothlorien ropes? Lembas? Could they speak with animals and trees? Feanorean lamps and seeing stones? Swords that glow? Hear messages in the waters? Surely the elves discovered things about the world.


Yes certainly, and I did not deny that; but what I meant was that, in my view, the Quendi didn't show the same sort of wonder at the world that Men did. Many of the Númenórean Kings became 'enamoured' of some aspect of Arda, e.g. Tar-Telemmaitë with the earth, Tar-Aldarion with trees (a love whch wasn't wholly materialistic, because he planted new ones in place of the fallen), and many with the Eldar themselves.
And it seems to me that the greatest downfalls or disgraces among Men were cuased by outside forces; surely, Men had in them an innate sort of fire which made it possible for them to turn to evil in the first place (the 'id', if you will), but it is my belief that in most cases the 'Id' needed a push. Just look at Númenor: if it weren't for Sauron it is possible that the Land of the Star wouldnever have been named Atalantë, and that it would still be in existance. And as you say, Melkor used Men as his tool on several occasions (the Nirnaeth Arnoediad being perhaps the most vile), but even then he bribed, bought or threatened those evil Men into his service. 

But I do agree that Men have a greater inherent capacity for destruction than for creation; but as they destroy, they simultaneously create. Like the raids of the later Númenóreans on the coasts of Middle-earth: if it weren't for them, the colonies there might never have been established (although Vinyalondë was built long before those times). And with the Akallabêth, the realms of Arnor and Gondor were established, thus enriching the otherwise rather wild places of Middle-earth. 
And in that sense it might be said that Elves and Men are like Yin and Yang; one creates and the other destroys. That is of course a huge generalization, as this whole discussion is, but that is one interpretation.


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## Ambartur (Mar 16, 2004)

Well, in my response to the original question, "Are Men the primary instruments of both Morgoth and Iluvatar within Ea?"

I, of course, look to the books. Where else to find the best answer?
And so I see, "And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderdul, which he himself hath not imagined."

"And thou, Melkor, wilt discover all the secret thoughts of thy mind, and wilt perceive that they are but a part of the whole and a tributary to its glory."

It seems to me that anything and everything Melkor does does nothing but glorify Eru in the end. So I say that even Melkor is Eru's tool. Therefore, Men, regardless of wether or not they have fallen, are still but a tool that glorifies Eru.


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## Melian_the_Maya (Mar 17, 2004)

Ambartur said:


> It seems to me that anything and everything Melkor does does nothing but glorify Eru in the end. So I say that even Melkor is Eru's tool. Therefore, Men, regardless of wether or not they have fallen, are still but a tool that glorifies Eru.



Yes, that is indeed the case, but I think the intention of the question was to go deeper than that and maybe show how they have served the purpose of Eru on ME.

The Elves, in my opinion, were meant to inherit Valinor and not ME, because after all that was where they would have stayed but for Feanor's departure following Finwe's death. They are the steadier of the Children of Ilúvatar, a bit like the rocks of the land really and the average Elf is hardier and much more powerful (not necessarily from a physical point of view) than the race of Men. What we see in the Lord of the Rings is the remainders of a race bowing to a past of glory but also of great pain. Even Elrond shows signs of sorrow and wants to leave ME. (well, with a brother gone mortal and the history of his people, who wouldn't, after all?)

The race of Men is the more unpredictable part of Eru's plan, I think, a bit more like the water, changing its course with the wind. They have a shorter life span, that is true, but they multiply faster than the Elves and their heritage is supposed to be ME. They are quicker in judgements and change sides more quickly, given also that they have not enough life to realize the perils of an enemy such as Morgoth at the beginning and Sauron thereafter to their full extent. That is why some Men even went and fought under Morgoth's banner.

Even in our world, the symmetry keeps to those lines. You have quick tempered people and you have more cautious and more patient people. I think that was what the Children of Eru managed to achieve: the balance and stability of the world.


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