# A question on Elves.



## CirdanLinweilin (Nov 19, 2016)

Weird question, but it relates to the Elves not being what we call "Fallen" as Men are.

Can anyone speculate as to whether Elven woman had pains in childbirth? As someone who believes that the pain of childbirth came from the sin of Adam and Eve, I was just wondering. It's been a question that's been in my head for some time now. You'd think as the "Children of _Illuvatar"_ being perfect and all, they would have a relatively easy time giving birth.

By the by, if this post is somehow crossing a line, feel absolutely free to remove it.

Thanks,
CL


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## PaigeSinclaire88 (Dec 16, 2016)

I think (since Tolkien was a religious man) that since the Elves are considered to be perfect and men are "fallen" I think it's certain to a point that the Elves represent Eden of some kind and men represent men after eating the apple. I still think even though one is perfection and one is flawed neither is good or bad, that they are equal sides of the same coin. 

I'm personally not a religious person but I find history and the study of Theology fascinating and I've wondered this myself also.


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## CirdanLinweilin (Dec 16, 2016)

That makes sense. Thanks Marina!


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## PaigeSinclaire88 (Dec 19, 2016)

I think the fact too that Aragorn saves the race speaks to the idea that men are redeemable.


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## CirdanLinweilin (Dec 19, 2016)

That is very true too.


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## Starbrow (Dec 19, 2016)

I wouldn't consider the elves to be perfect. The Silmarillion wouldn't have happened without the result of some flawed elves. Some examples of their serious faults would be the Kinslaying and the results of taking the Oath of Feanor.


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## PaigeSinclaire88 (Dec 20, 2016)

Maybe, and just hear me out here. 

In the old testament god was a mean god, this is known by many religious scholars. He was a spiteful, jealous god. 

But in the new testament god is an all knowing (nicer) god, a god that forgives for example. 

And here's my idea, maybe the Elves being less than perfect in the Simirillion is a knod to the god in the old testament and them being perfection or at least described as much in the lord of the rings trilogy may have been to show the change in their race and the fact that they were not the nicest or kindest I feel shows this. 

This is backed up further by the fact that Tolkien was a highly religious man and made winks and knods to virtue and religious ideas and notions.


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## realmckoy7 (Jan 28, 2017)

I believe that Tolkien despised allegory and avoided it all costs.
Elves no doubt experience pain in battle and what not. Given that birthing a newborn is an immense physical event, it can only be assumed that by the very nature of it, they would too experience pain from it. I hope we can also assume that elvish women are reproductively and biologically similiar to the women of Men when we know of cases like Beren(Men) and Luthien(Elves) bearing children, in this case, Dior. 

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## CirdanLinweilin (Jan 28, 2017)

That is very true, BUT:



> "They are made by man in his own image and likeness; but freed from those limitations which he feels most to press upon him. They are immortal, and their will is directly effective for the achievement of imagination and desire. -
> Carpenter, Humphrey (1977), _Tolkien: A Biography_, New York: Ballantine Books, ISBN 0-04-928037-6



Such limitations might perhaps be pain in childbirth. We just don't know. That's why its fun to speculate. 

I know Tolkien disliked allegory,

That doesn't mean he can't bring his faith in the way he wants. 

CL


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## Isteth (Apr 22, 2017)

I would say that Elves are not supposed to be an allegory for "perfect" man. Because of Melkor's role in the Song of the Ainur, he caused Arda to be marred even before the Elves were brought into being. Therefore, the Elves and Men came into being flawed, as well; that's why there's going to be the Dagor Dagorath at the end of time (kind of like Ragnarok or the Apocalypse), the remaking of Arda, and afterwards, the Second Music of the Ainur and the Children of Eru that will bring forth a new, perfect world- implying that Middle-earth is a flawed and fallen place, as well as all within it.

It could be argued that, because Elves were born into Arda Marred, they would be considered "fallen" because of Morgoth's meddling. In our favorite "Laws and Customs of the Eldar", Tolkien states that "it would seem to any of the Eldar a grievous thing if a wedded pair were sundered during the bearing of a child, or while the first years of its childhood lasted. For which reason the Eldar would beget children only in days of happiness and peace if they could". There's also the case of Miriel to consider; she gave so much of herself to Feanor that she departed her body and went to Mandos. To me, all of this implies that women could die in childbirth. Thus, it would make sense to me that they felt pain during childbirth, as well. Just because Elves' spirits were much more coherent with their bodies than those of Men doesn't mean that they didn't feel pain, or die from their exertions.

I mean, the men felt pain during battle. One can assume that the women felt pain during childbirth.


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