# Did the Valar treat Númenor wrong?



## Húrin Thalion (Dec 9, 2002)

I got this idea while reading through the Dagor Bragollach debate again and again, it was about if the race of men were treated fairly generally throughout history. I have always been disappointed on the valar for their lack of interest for the race of men and especially their treatment of Númenor. As soon as they saw grievances within the house of Finwë in Tirion among the Noldor they moved in and solved the conflict, not only bbecause Fëanor threated Fingolfin. Why? When the conflict between Tar-Palantir and Gimilkhad (or was it his father, oh well) almost turned into civil war they did nothing. This is to me rather unfair, not to mention the treatment of men earlier in history when at their awakening not one messenger was sent to Hildorien. Now this is not about the entire hiostory of men but anyway, let's sum it up.

Could the valar have done anything else than to strike at Númenor? Several generations earlier I think they should have demonstrated their power and goodness to learn men and not punish them? Why do you think they should have done as they did or anything else? Just want your personal opinions and not a definite answer.

Húrin Thalion


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## Uminya (Dec 9, 2002)

Personally, I think that there was a well-defined favoritism of the Elves over Men. As Hurin said above, there were no messengers sent to our awakening, and the Valar in general turned a cold shoulder. Much of the pain and suffering of both men and elves could have been lessened (if not averted) had the Valar shown more concern for men in their Awakening, because Morgoth's minion's would have not been the only to be convincing men. We were left to deal with the world on our own while the Elves were "living the good life" in Valinor.

Men have always been considered a weaker race (mainly in willpower) but had the elves been basically abandoned, they would have fared no better. The Valar saw elves and wanted to keep what they first found, and weren't concerned with the second-comers.


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## gate7ole (Dec 9, 2002)

> from _The Istari, UT_
> For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies of as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years. And this the Valar did, desiring *to amend the errors of old*, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed; whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men and Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt.


This seems a favorite subject, since every now and then, someone accuses the Valar for being indifferent towards Men. Well, Tolkien himself gives us a hint of the changed behaviour of the Powers. 
They realized their error, which is not what most people believe. They didn't err because of not aiding the Men, bu because they aided the Elves too much! After the effects of this error, they decided to act differently with the Second born.
About Númenor, why have the Valar tried Men wrongly? They gave them a place of unique beauty, secure from any possible danger (except from the danger of their pride) and intructed the Eldar to guide them and teach them. Furthermore, they lengthened their life. So, you suggest a direct intervention in their inner problems. IMO, this would prove disastrous. The Númenoreans would not appreciate such action by the Valar, even if it was for their own good.


> from Ciryaher
> Men have always been considered a weaker race (mainly in willpower) but had the elves been basically abandoned, they would have fared no better. The Valar saw elves and wanted to keep what they first found, and weren't concerned with the second-comers.


I don't think that Men were considered weaker by the Valar. They were just stranger and not easy to be understood. They had this unique ability to define their future beyond the Music of Ainur, which even Valar didn't have and couldn't understand. And about not being concerned with the second-comers, what were the Istari?
No, the Valar didn't treat Men unfairly. They treated them differently and IMO in the end better. And for a final point, who would you prefer to be: an elf living in Valinor safe under the protection of the Gods, with little initiative, OR a man (or elf) living in ME without safety but with the opportunity for great deeds? Answer this and think again if the treatment of Men was eventually worse than that of the Elves.


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## Húrin Thalion (Dec 10, 2002)

> About Númenor, why have the Valar tried Men wrongly? They gave them a place of unique beauty, secure from any possible danger (except from the danger of their pride) and intructed the Eldar to guide them and teach them. Furthermore, they lengthened their life. So, you suggest a direct intervention in their inner problems. IMO, this would prove disastrous. The Númenoreans would not appreciate such action by the Valar, even if it was for their own good.



Of course they hsouldn't have intervened in that way, we know what happened to the house of Finwë. My point is, even though the Noldor rebelled, attacked their friends and broke the peace of the undying lands, they were not killed. I do no think that Fëanor would attack the valar for he knew their power and glory. But you will have to forgive the Numenoreans, they were decieved by Sauron and the Valar never showed themselves to men, only messengers. This is why men rebelled. My sumary is: It was not necessary to kill all Númenoreans, drown the island and all that. I am sure that with active influence they might have succeded in mending the scars from hatred, even in the time of Tar-Palantír. And much of their increased life span was due to that they started living like the firstborne, I cannot get the quote now for I have to go to school soon but it is there. They were granted that place for staying true to the elves nad fighting Morgoth and I think they deserved it.

Húrin Thalion


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## Lhunithiliel (Dec 10, 2002)

There is a lot of truth in every of the posts above.

I am thinking, though,....... How could Manwe *dare * so mercylessly and fiercely attack those children of Eru, that had always been known to have been created as the future Masters of Arda. It was Illuvatar himself who had given Men a more "special" role and this was not fully clear neither to the Valar, nor to the Elves.... 
What I'm saying is .... Could this blow have been carried out for reasons far different from what it seemed "on the surface" (punishment for not respecting the old traditions and etc.).
Could it have been that the Valar just wanted to smash the elite of the race of Men in order to assure for themselves and their proteges (sp?) - the Elves a secured rule over Arda in the future with no others who could claim it?

I know this thought fits the "Unconventional"-forum (still doesn't exist  ), but it's a thought one might have.... if looking from the "dark" corner....


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## Húrin Thalion (Dec 10, 2002)

Very intriguing Lhun but I will have to disagree:



> I am thinking, though,....... How could Manwe dare so mercylessly and fiercely attack those children of Eru, that had always been known to have been created as the future Masters of Arda. It was Illuvatar himself who had given Men a more "special" role and this was not fully clear neither to the Valar, nor to the Elves....



In the Silmarillion it says that when the Númenoreans came to Valinor, "Manwë stood up on Taniquetil and summoned Eru and the valar for a time surrendered all their powers in Arda to him and he..."

Not an exact quote but close enough. So it was Eru himself who punished Númenor, to make this forum a little more unconventional () I wonder, can Eru be wrong? I still hold the valar responsible since they knew what was going to happen. And what happened to Amandil?

Húrin Thalion


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## gate7ole (Dec 10, 2002)

> _posted by Húrin Thalion_
> My point is, even though *the Noldor rebelled, attacked their friends and broke the peace of the undying lands*, they were not killed. I do no think that Fëanor would attack the valar for he knew their power and glory. But you will have to forgive the Numenoreans, they were decieved by Sauron and the Valar never showed themselves to men, only messengers. This is why men rebelled. My sumary is: *It was not necessary to kill all Númenoreans, drown the island and all that.*


Let’s deal with the “sins” of the Noldor. They believed that the Valar restricted them and suppressed their wills. In other words, they denied their guidance and rebelled. And this rebellion involved the departure from Valinor. (The kin-slaying at Alqualondë cannot be considered a direct action against the Gods).
On the other hand, the Númenóreans didn’t just reject the help of the Valar. They blasphemed Eru (by worshiping Morgoth) and acted against the Powers directly by attacking them. Furthermore, they stepped on the Undying Lands, which was completely forbidden to them and had the penalty of death! Remember, Eärendil was the only man who stepped on these lands and despite his high motives, he was forbidden to march on ME any more.
Also, you cannot excuse Men that they were badly influenced by Sauron, because the Noldor were also influenced by Melkor, a far more powerful and cunning spirit.

Having in mind their sins, the Noldor and Men were punished in the appropriate way. Before underestimating the punishment of the Noldor, remember that they had to battle with the greatest Vala, Morgoth for more than 500 years without any help by the Powers. They suffered treasons, cruel deaths, torments. ALL the elven princes were slain (only Galadriel survived from the first two generations of Finwë’ s house). Most of them would spend their time until the Final End at the Halls of Mandos.
Comparing to the above, the Númenóreans were simply killed quickly. And they went to the place where Eru has appointed to them, which may be better that the Halls of Mandos.
I stick to my opinion that the Valar (and Eru through them) acted equally to the two races. If they did wrong, they did it to both of them.



> _posted by Lhunithiliel_
> Could it have been that the Valar just wanted to smash the elite of the race of Men in order to assure for themselves and their proteges (sp?) - the Elves a secured rule over Arda in the future with no others who could claim it?


This is not just unconventional, it is totally outside Tolkien’s vision of his creation. All the actions of the Valar imply the exact opposite. Why should they create such an elite of the race of Men and then destroy it? It doesn’t make sense. Their behaviour after the Fall of Númenor doesn’t show any intention to rule over Arda. In the contrary, they withdrew outside the reach of ME and left it to Men.



> _posted by Lhunithiliel_
> How could Manwe dare so mercylessly and fiercely attack those children of Eru, that had always been known to have been created as the future Masters of Arda.


As Húrin Thalion stated, it was Eru’s action not Manwë’s. And Manwë is not the tyrant you describe. He is the kindest and wisest spirit of ME. Lhunithiliel, I think that these thoughts are not yours but Morgoth’s who tries to corrupt you. Morgoth, you want succeed it!




> _posted by Húrin Thalion_
> to make this forum a little more unconventional I wonder, can Eru be wrong? I still hold the Valar responsible since they knew what was going to happen. And what happened to Amandil?


Now this is so unconventional that I dare not touch. A simple thought only. If A God is capable of erring, would this be apparent to his creations? Or are they not able to perceive his errors, since they don’t see the world from the outside. I mean can a computer game character understand that there is a bug in the game?
Finally Amandil sadly must have perished during the cataclysm. He was not given the same redemption with Eärendil. 

PS. Sorry for the long (and not lost) post. It’s fun debating you.


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## Húrin Thalion (Dec 10, 2002)

> Let’s deal with the “sins” of the Noldor. They believed that the Valar restricted them and suppressed their wills. In other words, they denied their guidance and rebelled. And this rebellion involved the departure from Valinor. (The kin-slaying at Alqualondë cannot be considered a direct action against the Gods).



I would say that the kin slaying in Alqualondë was the most powerful blow that Fëanor could deal the valar. I think that the strike against Teleri could only be interpreted as Fëanor's suppressed wrath against the valar and their restrictions. The Powers loved all living beings and most of them the elves and I think that this must have been in his mind when he ordered his men to board the ships. He wanted either to snatch the ships and let the valar watch unable to do anything and if that was not possible he had to demonstrate that he had broken totally with the Gods and would not follow them. This he did through hurting them at their weakest spot, their compassion. I also think it important that Fëanor knew the power of the valar and had seen them with his own eyes, he did not dare to assail them with force. For the Númenoreans the Powers were only a distant rumour that even not their fathers had seen. They were said to say this and that and forbid sailing westwards, no wonder they doubted for doubt is in the heart of all men.




> Having in mind their sins, the Noldor and Men were punished in the appropriate way. Before underestimating the punishment of the Noldor, remember that they had to battle with the greatest Vala, Morgoth for more than 500 years without any help by the Powers. They suffered treasons, cruel deaths, torments. ALL the elven princes were slain (only Galadriel survived from the first two generations of Finwë’ s house). Most of them would spend their time until the Final End at the Halls of Mandos.



Is that really their punishment for the kinslaying? I think that this would have happened still if they had only marched over Helcaraxë without breaking the Peace of the undying lands. Of course the hiding of Valinor was due to this but I do not think the Noldor would retreat there even if they could. And what of men? I think it is pathetic that a representative for both men and elves that sought for mercy. What had men done? They were trapped and fooled by the Noldor in the beginning for they did not now of the prophecy of the north that says that the punishment would come upon all who aided them. The men of the three houses of Edain had nothing to apologize for. I think the valar gave them their island for this reason, they felt guilty. They knew that they had done men great wrong. This is not by not intervening with force but for that hey had not even sent a messenger! They did not even help Noldor to eradicate Mprgoth to protect men, so great was their fury over the kinslaying.

I think that there is a part in the Silmarillion that shows the valour of men best: 



> The Turgon followed Húrins and Huors advice to withdraw and called to him what was left of Gondolins forces and Fingons men and drew back to the pass of Sirion... ...Bu the men of Dor Lómin remained as a wall, just as Húrin and Huor had intended; for in their hearts there was no wish to leave the lands of the north, and if they could not win back their homes they preffered to die where they were. In this way they repaid the debt of Uldors treachery; and of all the warlike deeds that the fathers of men did in the alliance with Eldar the last battle of the men from Dor Lómin is the most renown .



Húrin Thalion

PS Don't mind if the quote is not entirely correct, I've only got a bad translation to Swedish yet.

PPS What did you mean by sorry for your lost (last?) post, G70?


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## gate7ole (Dec 10, 2002)

But don’t you see the great difference in the motives of the two rebellions? The Elves just wanted their freedom and independence. They rebelled against the Valar by leaving their lands. While the Númenóreans wanted to usurp Valinor and the –supossed- gift of immortality it offered. Fëanor didn’t assailt the Valar, not because he knew their powers, but because this was not his intention and wouldn’t fulfill his purposes.

The suffering of treasons, torments, death is due to the Doom of Mandos, which was prophesied just after the kin slaying. And it was a kind of penalty for all their evil deeds, but especially for the slaying of the Teleri. But this is not the point. It seems to me that they were punished enough for everything they caused to themselves and their kin. And that the –seemingly- crueler punishment for the Númenóreans was also justified (and caused by the One).

And for the last time, I will apologize for the Valar for their –seeming again- indifference towards Men. The quote from the Istari that I provided before mentions the reasons that Men were treated indifferently. If you don’t accept Tolkien’s passages, I cannot persuade you. If one race was treated badly, it was the Elves who were taken to Valinor and the Powers didn’t secure them by loosing Melkor among them.

PS. Previously, I was sorry for the long post (bad sp).


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## Lhunithiliel (Dec 11, 2002)

Boys, it's such a pleasure to have this discussion with you! 

Now what you've been saying in your posts is completely true! You will say "How?! We have two opposite points of view! The Valar - guilty-not guilty". But I have said it in other discussions: it all depends what corner you're standing in and watching the "show".
I do agree, though that Men and Elves had quite a difference in their desires for which they had been punished by the Gods. And I do consent that the Elves' ambitions were much nobler than those of the totally corrupted Numenoreans. Therefore, I think the punishment over the Elves to be much MORE cruel and mercyless than that over Men.

What troubles me here is the *very act of punishment!* I, personally have all my life been against punishment. I am a parent myself but I have never punished my daughter! Since she was just a little crying and screaming creature till present I have treated her with respect as towards every and any other individual.... Because, I believe that punishment does not lead to the result expected. It can bring only frustration and in fact it will bring a result that is quite contrary to the expected. 
I'm saying all this becuase, based on my personal belief in the *power of discussing as the only possible way to solving problems*, I think that the Valar did wrong to solve the problems with the inferior races by punishing them with all the fury and force they had in their possession, being gods! 

And another point, actually deriving from the above.
In fact I have spoken about this in other discussions, but other people and on another topics... Yet, the question has never left me:
Elves were fobidden things and allowed others.
Men were fobidden other things and allowed others....

This is what, IMO, brought the desastrous sequence - "_*forbidden - allowed*_. I mean, how can a high-intelligence creature be created and then his/her mind restrained? If the Eru wanted humble servants he would not have created so perfect creatures as the Ainur, the Elves... even Men. He could have done like Morgoth - create will-less (a new word!  ), mind-less executives who would never even dream of doing anything else than serve the Supreme One.... 
In this line, I don't think that it was Eru who punished the Elves and Men, but the Valar. If Eru was in the habbit of punishing , he would have had punished the Ainur for a lot of their faults, done much before the coming of the Elves and Men. He had not. I wonder where the Valar had learned the way of punishment as a response to a thing wrongly done!
I think that the Valar, being left by Illuvatar to rule over Arda, had established their own laws, according to their own understandings and whoever tried to break this ruling was found guilty and should have been punished. 
Now, don't get me wrong! I admire the Valar's efforts at the beginning of the days of the young world.... But then.... They just proved themselves inconsistent....

Sorry for the long post!  
I wanted to say a few more things, but .... no, this is enough. 
******

And guys, check the "What if" - workbook


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## Húrin Thalion (Dec 11, 2002)

> In this line, I don't think that it was Eru who punished the Elves and Men, but the Valar. If Eru was in the habbit of punishing , he would have had punished the Ainur for a lot of their faults, done much before the coming of the Elves and Men. He had not. I wonder where the Valar had learned the way of punishment as a response to a thing wrongly done!



Oh that is the way of Gods and semi-gods, they punish all who oppose them . I think that you cannot say that Eru did not punish Númenor.



> The Manwë called to himself on the mountain Ilúvatar, and Valar for a time forsook their power over Arda. But Ilúvatar showed his powers and changed the nature of the world; and a great chasm opened betweeeen the undying lands and Númenor, and it was flooded with water and the steam and sound of this reached the heaven. And all the ships of the Númenoreans were drawn down in this hole and lost for all time... ... And Andor, the land of gift, the Númenor of the Kings, Elenna of Eärendil's star, was destroyed. For it was very close to the chasm and it's foundations wereripped up and the island fell into the darkness and is no more.



Thus it was Eru and only Eru who struck his children. And Lhun don't leave out those things you wanted to say, I am eager to hear them.

Húrin Thalion


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## Mrs. Maggott (Dec 11, 2002)

Oh dear! There are so many things to respond to here. Let me try at least a two thoughts. To begin with, discipline is not punishment or at least not punishment alone. To discipline is to teach. The young and untutored _must_ be taught in order for them to attain their highest possible good or even to simply survive. In many cases, this can be accomplished without punishment - or shall we say, "chastisement". For instance, in the case of children, some are easy to teach. Even a disapproving look will immediately result in a feeling of remorse for the inappropriate behavior. Then there are other children that a small nuclear device is needed to even _get_ their attention! Why is this important? Because sometimes a slap on the rear is far less painful and damaging than what would result if you have a child who _will not_ respond to anything less dire. The young child who _will_ run into the street or play with matches or do something else life threatening may require more than a lecture on the matter. This is _not_ hateful or cruel. Indeed, it is far _more_ cruel to allow a child to have its own way when it may lead to his or her injury or death. 

Children are by their very natures, ignorant (not stupid). The cure for ignorance is knowledge. Knowledge is imparted through teaching but, unfortunately, not all teaching situations are pleasant and simple. When difficulties arise, it is up to the adult teacher (usually the parent) to do whatever is necessary to make sure the lesson is learned, especially when it is a matter of life and death.

In the case of Numenor, I would say that the Valar should have watched the situation more closely, especially when it became apparent that one of their own - the Maia Sauron - was becoming an extremely disruptive and evil influence on the men of Numenor. However, I can also understand that the Valar were reluctant to interact with men since men seemed so determined to worship them rather than Eru. Perhaps the Valar sensed that their intervention might result not in a cessation of the aberrant behavior, but in temples to Manwe instead of or alongside temples to Melkor! Unlike the elves - with whom the Valar seemed to have a rapport, men were distinctly foreign to them, destined as they were to depart from Middle-earth. 

Furthermore, men's life span was so limited (at least comapred to that of the Valars) that they may have lacked the ability to communicate effectively. I get the feeling not that the Valar did not _care_ for men or that they were disinterested in them, but that there was an estrangement between them that did _not_ exist between the Valar and the Elves. Even in times of outright defiance and virtual war between the Valar and the First Born, there was a kinship there. The elves might have been "naughty children" but men, on the other hand, were an almost unknown quantity about which the residents of Valinor were most dubious and tentative in their dealings.


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## Húrin Thalion (Dec 13, 2002)

That is a very wise point and I can only quote you to support my opinion:



> Furthermore, men's life span was so limited (at least comapred to that of the Valars) that they may have lacked the ability to communicate effectively. I get the feeling not that the Valar did not care for men or that they were disinterested in them, but that there was an estrangement between them that did not exist between the Valar and the Elves. Even in times of outright defiance and virtual war between the Valar and the First Born, there was a kinship there. The elves might have been "naughty children" but men, on the other hand, were an almost unknown quantity about which the residents of Valinor were most dubious and tentative in their dealings.



If you turn this into let's say a human family it would be terrible. First a couple adopt one child and loves, treats him/her good and raise him/her. Then they adopt another child that is not very like them in nature and they start to treat him/her bad, do not care for his/her raising and when the child rebels, they nearly kill him/her! And I also think that men did not worship valar, for who was the God of the Meneltarma. The Valar and Maiar where more like saints in the catholic church; look at the mariners under Tar-Aldarion who worshipped Uinen not as a god but as a protector. 

Húrin Thalion


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## Mrs. Maggott (Dec 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Húrin Thalion _ And I also think that men did not worship valar,
> 
> Húrin Thalion [/B]


But that was the problem. Men indeed were inclined to worship the Valar - they certainly worshiped Melkor/Morgoth. That is another reason why the Valar were dubious about interacting with men; they feared that they would become objects of worship rather than Eru himself. 

In the Lost Tales (I think), it mentions Eru speaking directly to men who ignored His still, small voice and chose to worship the more "noisy" and showy Morgoth. Eru then tells them that he will permit their sacriledge, but He shortens their lives so that they may ultimately learn _whom_ they should worship - that is, the Creator and not just another part of creation which, of course, Melkor was.


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## Húrin Thalion (Dec 13, 2002)

True but would the Valar come in the purpose of being worshipped? Melkor wished to be worshipped and was so but if the valar showed themselves men would of course show great respect but I don't think they would worship. They didn't even have to show themselves, but sending elves to Numenor would help. For some of the Numenorean longevity was due to that they lived more like elves than men it is said somewhere in the UT. The very presence of the firstboen would have a mending effect and the Maiar could invisible walk around and like Olorin inspire and help men.

Húrin thalion


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## Mrs. Maggott (Dec 13, 2002)

That was the way it was in the beginning of Numenor; elves and men had a very cordial and beneficial relationship. However, once Sauron began to poison the minds of the Numenoreans, the elves became a "flash point" of envy and later envy and hate. Any benefit they may have been in the beginning soon became something quite different for Sauron harped upon men's mortality and the elves were an example of what they eventually thought that they wanted - _immortality_. 

The presence of the Valar in Numenor might have been "safe" because that people were "advanced" and had had dealings with the Great Powers. But as far as mankind in general was concerned, the Valar greatly feared that they would be worshipped simply because lesser men would not be able to distinguish between what should be reverenced and what worshipped. It is very like the Papua New Guinea natives who built mock ups of cargo planes in the jungle because, having seen such things in the sky during WWII over their island, believed that they were gods and they were trying to lure them down so that they might worship appropriately. I fear that many men, especially at the first awakening, would have reacted similarly upon meeting any of the Great of Valinor. Indeed, I think that this is one of the reasons that the Valar did not seek out men as they had the elves upon their awakening. After all, as the elves were immortal, the Valar had plenty of time to enlighten them individually. Men were mortal; their life span was relatively short. It would be infinitely more difficult to correct a misperception among such beings since the time permitted for instruction was necessarily limited.


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## Gil-Galad (Dec 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Húrin Thalion _
> [B
> Could the valar have done anything else than to strike at Númenor? Several generations earlier I think they should have demonstrated their power and goodness to learn men and not punish them? Why do you think they should have done as they did or anything else? Just want your personal opinions and not a definite answer.
> 
> Húrin Thalion [/B]


 In my view Valar did the right thing.If they had demonstrated their power and showed that men COULD NOT go in Valinor,men would have thought that Valar didn't want to show them the beautiful Valinor and to give them immortality.People would have decided that Valar were keeping these things only for themselves and didn't want to share them with anyone else.That would have given an impetus to men to continue their searching for Valinor and probably worse things would have happened.


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## gate7ole (Dec 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Mrs. Maggott _
> That was the way it was in the beginning of Numenor; elves and men had a very cordial and beneficial relationship. *However, once Sauron began to poison the minds of the Numenoreans*, the elves became a "flash point" of envy and later envy and hate. Any benefit they may have been in the beginning soon became something quite different for Sauron harped upon men's mortality and the elves were an example of what they eventually thought that they wanted - _immortality_.



Please remember that the Numenoreans showed disgrace against the Valar far earlier than Sauron's "emprisonment" there. So the evil didn't come from anywhere else but from themselves. This is a reason that their behaviour had to be punished in such a harsh way.
About your others thoughts, they are interesting and in accordance in a way or another with my own thoughts.


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## Mrs. Maggott (Dec 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by gate7ole _
> *Please remember that the Numenoreans showed disgrace against the Valar far earlier than Sauron's "emprisonment" there. So the evil didn't come from anywhere else but from themselves. This is a reason that their behaviour had to be punished in such a harsh way.
> About your others thoughts, they are interesting and in accordance in a way or another with my own thoughts. *



Sauron's evil was very subtle and started long before he was captured and imprisoned in Numenor. True, the seeds of evil are in all creatures with free will and it is easier to "wake" those seeds in some rather than others. Doubtless, all of the gifts and priviledges bestowed upon the Numenoreans gave them a rather inflated view of themselves and, of course, pride was ever the first deadly sin, but the machinations of Sauron were at work among them long before he actually arrived at that doomed Island Kingdom.


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## Húrin Thalion (Jan 11, 2003)

> Sauron's evil was very subtle and started long before he was captured and imprisoned in Numenor. True, the seeds of evil are in all creatures with free will and it is easier to "wake" those seeds in some rather than others. Doubtless, all of the gifts and priviledges bestowed upon the Numenoreans gave them a rather inflated view of themselves and, of course, pride was ever the first deadly sin, but the machinations of Sauron were at work among them long before he actually arrived at that doomed Island Kingdom.



Hmmm... Interesting. I do not think that Sauron influenced the island of Númenor before his coming there. He then threatened their fortresses and havens with war but did not come forth as Annatar, the lord of gifts to poison their minds. If he had known the powers of the Edain he would rather have done this. It is interesting to me why he encouraged Ar-Pharazôn to attack Valinor, I mean, if he wanted to govern a mighty empire, go ahead, the people worshipped him as a God and from that to king the step is small. Why did he had to destroy a realm that he controlled? Envy? Hatred? Folly?

Húrin Thalion


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## gate7ole (Jan 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Húrin Thalion _
> * It is interesting to me why he encouraged Ar-Pharazôn to attack Valinor, I mean, if he wanted to govern a mighty empire, go ahead, the people worshipped him as a God and from that to king the step is small. Why did he had to destroy a realm that he controlled? Envy? Hatred? Folly?
> 
> Húrin Thalion *



Sauron's motives to destroy Numenor, were not just of domination over them. He wanted to destroy the Edain that had fought against his lord and himself ages ago. He wanted them to battle the Valar and humiliate the Powers.
Besides, in order to become absolute king over ME, the Numenoreans had to be eliminated, since they would not be always his loyal servants and he feared their powers.


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## Mrs. Maggott (Jan 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by gate7ole _
> *Sauron's motives to destroy Numenor, were not just of domination over them. He wanted to destroy the Edain that had fought against his lord and himself ages ago. He wanted them to battle the Valar and humiliate the Powers.
> Besides, in order to become absolute king over ME, the Numenoreans had to be eliminated, since they would not be always his loyal servants and he feared their powers. *



The goal of evil is to destroy everything and everyone but itself. In the last volume of his three part "sci-fi trilogy", That Hideous Strength, C.S. Lewis clearly points out that at the end of all things, only one evil being would exist if evil were victorious. Most people think about hell and Satan with his demons and the damned all existing together in some sort of Dantesque lower region. No. Morgoth/Satan wishes to devour everything to engorge himself to absorb _all of creation_ until only he remains. (Tolkien's Ungoliant comes closest to this presentation of evil). _Evil does not, cannot, will not coexist with anything else, even something else that is evil._ That is clearly shown by the terrible conflict between Morgoth and Ungoliant in which only Morgoth's balrog servants are able to prevent even this mighty spirit from being devoured. 

Sauron destroyed the Numenoreans _because he could - and he wanted to._ That is what evil does.


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## gate7ole (Jan 12, 2003)

> _from Morgoth's Ring_
> This was sheer nihilism, and negation its one ultimate object: Morgoth would no doubt, if he had been victorious, have ultimately destroyed even his own 'creatures', such as the Orcs, when they had served his sole purpose in using them: the destruction of Elves and Men.
> ...
> Sauron had never reached this stage of nihilistic madness. He did not object to the existence of the world, so long as he could do what he liked with it. He still had the relics of positive purposes, that descended from the good of the nature in which he began: it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall, and of his relapse) that he loved order and co- ordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction.


These are the words of the professor himself, who gives some credit to Sauron from being totally evil.


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## Mrs. Maggott (Jan 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by gate7ole _
> *These are the words of the professor himself, who gives some credit to Sauron from being totally evil. *


Interestingly enough, this point is made when Gandalf notes that Sauron was a "servant" of a greater and more evil master. To serve at all is to in and of itself retain some remnant of good. A truly evil being could never serve in the same way that a truly evil being could never experience affection or friendship. An "ordinary" evil person frequently is possessed of finer positive qualities. He may be kind to animals or have an true affection for another person. These traits indicate that he is "redeemable". The fact that Sauron was able to "serve" Morgoth in some capacity indicates that he was not as evil as that being who could serve no one but himself.


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