# Who is...........



## Mischievious Merry (Jan 29, 2003)

SILLY QUESTION!!! 
Who is Morgoth?All of really know about him is that he is the one ho made orks in mockery of the elves.Isn't that right? But that's all I know about him and I would like some input.
Thanks 
Mischievious Merry


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## Confusticated (Jan 29, 2003)

In short - the cause of all that is evil.

Iluvatar (God, in Tolkien's myth) created first these beings (Ainur), and they all made music together, and one among them, Melkor - was the most mighty. He caused discord in the music and was put to shame. But to wrap this up - Iluvatar showed these beings (Ainur) a vision of the world and then he made the world and some of the beings went down into it to shape it and help it grow. Melkor was one of these, but he had turned evil and sought to destroy all that was good. He did a great deal of damage too. Sauron was his servant in the first age. Melkor is also thought to be responsable for dragons and Balrogs.

Melkor was named Morgoth by an elf, and that name stuck.


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## FoolOfATook (Jan 29, 2003)

As to the question about Morgoth's role in the creation of Orcs, in _The Silmarillion_ it states quite clearly that Orcs were Elves that Morgoth tortured into a new, tormented race. However, there is a passage in _Morgoth's Ring_, part of _The History of Middle-earth_ , that contradicts this, but I don't have a copy of that volume of the HoME (and if I did it wouldn't be of much use to me right now, at school) and it's been months and months since I read that piece in a copy my school's library had. 
I can say that your phrasing "made orks in mockery of the elves" isn't quite right either way- one of the key ideas of Tolkien's legendarum is that evil can not create, it can only pervert- an idea that Tolkien's friend C.S. Lewis put at the very heart of his incredible work _The Screwtape Letters_. If you want to learn the whole story of Morgoth, from creation to his defeat at the hands of the Valar, it's one of the key textual threads running through _The Silmarillion_


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## Confusticated (Jan 29, 2003)

Here is the exact quote from The Silmarillion:


> Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes.



Quendi = elves

There is arguement about the true origin of orcs but everyone seems to agree to at least this: they were Melkor's doing, but were not created by him, but breed or twisted from other things.


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## Mischievious Merry (Jan 29, 2003)

Interesting.I really have to get the Sil. I' hopefully getting that one next.Once I get the Sil maybe things will be a bit clearer.
Thanks for the info! 
Mischievious Merry


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## f0enix_rising (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mischievious Merry _
> *Interesting.I really have to get the Sil.*


 I just got it a week ago (a cheap paperback version), and it's great! A little difficult to follow, with all the names and places, but it really adds depth to the whole LOTR story. Seeing the ages of battle between good/evil and the parts all the elves and Valar play is worth the time. 

I'm hoping the next time I read the Hobbit and LOTR, they'll both be more clear.


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## GuardianRanger (Jan 29, 2003)

I'm still in the middle of The Silmarillion, but I offer up this related question. We know that Melkor/Morgoth could not create evil races/people/etc. To witness:

Orcs were "created" by the corruption of elves that were tortured. (Elves that left their own kind.)

Balrogs are Mair that have been corrupted.

What animals, people, etc. were corrupted to become dragons or trolls?


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## Confusticated (Jan 29, 2003)

Here's a thread that deals with dragons.
My thoughts are there, along with some other people's.


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## GuardianRanger (Jan 29, 2003)

Thanks for the link to a great read.

That was interesting!


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## Mischievious Merry (Feb 2, 2003)

f0nix and Guardian you will have to tell me what you think about the sil. The Hobbit is really good, but not QUITE as good as LotR's (in my opinion) but like the Sil it explains alot more.
Mischievious Merry


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## Lhunithiliel (Feb 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mischievious Merry _
> *SILLY QUESTION!!!
> Who is Morgoth?All of really know about him is that he is the one ho made orks in mockery of the elves.Isn't that right? But that's all I know about him and I would like some input.
> Thanks
> Mischievious Merry *


Please, excuse me, but with 101 posts you should have not asked such things.


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## GuardianRanger (Feb 3, 2003)

Mischievious Merry, I am now into "Of the Ruin of Beleriand", page 194 in my edition to be exact. I love the book, and can't put it down. When I started the book, my impression was that it was going to be "something I just have to get through" in order to appreciate Tolkien's world more. And the beginning was tough. Now, though, my opinion has changed. I really enjoy the story....yes, it's complex, yes, there are a lot of names; but it has expanded my appreciation for Tolkien's works and has opened my eyes to a lot in the Hobbit and LOTR.

I found when I started reading the Silmarillion, I had to flip to the index of names constantly; and I put a second bookmark in the book right by the map because I was always returning to it. I'll admit, the beginning was slow, and pretty difficult to read. At the point I'm at now, though, it moves along.

I had read the Hobbit and LOTR many times. Now, after reading the Silmarillion, I plan on reading Unfinished Tales and The Atlas of Middle Earth. When those are done, I'm thinking of Letters, followed by Carpenter's biography. When _those_ are done, I think I may start the Hobbit and LOTR again. In my opinion, I think I will have learned enough from the other sources, that I will see and understand new things in both the Hobbit and Lord Of The Rings.

But, that's just my $.02.


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## Confusticated (Feb 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lhunithiliel _
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Mischievious Merry_
> ...



She had 20 or 30 posts less when she asked. I do not see why having 101 posts ought to stop a person from asking for information on Morgoth.

MischieviousMerry, that comment about 101 posts is a uncalled for in my opinion, I hope you wont hesitate to ask other questions in the future.


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## f0enix_rising (Feb 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GuardianRanger _
> *Mischievious Merry, I am now into "Of the Ruin of Beleriand"*


 Hey! You're one chapter ahead of me!


> *When I started the book, my impression was that it was going to be "something I just have to get through" in order to appreciate Tolkien's world more. And the beginning was tough. Now, though, my opinion has changed. I really enjoy the story....yes, it's complex, yes, there are a lot of names; but it has expanded my appreciation for Tolkien's works*


 I still have to use the index quite a bit, but the story is riviting. It seems to pick up pace after the elves move into Beleriand. And the story has a lot of things I didn't expect from a race as noble as the elves (e.g. character flaws and hidden agendas), but it's all facinating.

Overall, I love the book, but will most definately read it again with more attention to details such as lineage, times, locations, etc. before I read other works.

But, maybe you shouldn't listen to me, for I only have 16 posts.


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## Mischievious Merry (Feb 3, 2003)

Mst of my questions are silly.That's why for the subject I put "Silly Question"Nom thanks for standing up for me.
But don't worry I think I'll have a silly question or two up my sleeve to ask. 
Boy from what all of you said about the "Sil" I'm going to have to hurry up and get it.It sounds great!Plz do keep me posted on the rest of it. 
Mischievious Merry

P.S F0nix. I don't think it makes a different on how many posts you have. That doesn't mean you don't know just as much as anyone else. Anyway it shouldn't make a difference.


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## Lhunithiliel (Feb 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Nóm _
> *Please, excuse me, but with 101 posts you should have not asked such things. *


* 




She had 20 or 30 posts less when she asked. I do not see why having 101 posts ought to stop a person from asking for information on Morgoth.

MischieviousMerry, that comment about 101 posts is a uncalled for in my opinion, I hope you wont hesitate to ask other questions in the future. 

Click to expand...

Nom, isn't it time for you to stop this ridiculous little "war"?
It's doing harm on the image of the forum.*


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## Confusticated (Feb 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lhunithiliel _
> *Nom, isn't it time for you to stop this ridiculous little "war"?
> It's doing harm on the image of the forum. *



In the past I have suspected that you had a problem with me, a couple times I questioned you about it. Asking, if anything negative or personal was ment by the comments.

Never have I flat out accused you of anything. You accuse me of war though. Without even asking.

Ask the moderaters, ask a number of people, and you will see that I have a habbit of defending people if I think someone is being rude or unfair to them. Had you asked, I would have gathered links to such occurrances.

This was not personal.

In fact, the last post I made to you that was of a personal nature was about two months ago. For quite a while I looked past anything, and flat didn't even reply to your posts for some weeks there. I thought we had reached a point where I could post things to you or you to me, without either of us mistaking the meaning.

I was wrong.

Hurting the image of the forum am I?
Tell Ancalagon - ask him to keep an eye on me, perhaps I need to be banned. 

In fact, I am a tad concerned that perhaps I am hurting the image. Maybe I am percieved differently than I intend to be. I am going to open a poll in stuff and bother asking about my quality as a member of TTF.

If it is okay with you, we can continue this in PM, however, I had to reply to your accusation openly since the accusation was made openly.


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## Mischievious Merry (Feb 6, 2003)

I FINALLY got the "Sil"! I got it 2 days ago, and I'm enjoying every bit.Like Ranger and F0nix said you have to keep flipping back to the index, but I'm learning ALOT more. Thanks for all of the info. everyone gave me about Morgoth and about the Sil. 
Mischievious Merry

P.S Nom I think you are fine.


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## Maedhros (Feb 6, 2003)

Who is Curudan? Is he the brother of Nerdanel?


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## PipaHappyHobbit (Feb 11, 2003)

I'm reading the Sil, too.  I was wondering about Melkor ( aka. Morgoth ) All the other Valar had spouses, WHY didn't Melkor?


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## FoolOfATook (Feb 11, 2003)

Not all of the Valar had spouses- Ulmo for instance.


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