# Could Hobbits use magic?



## vgunn (Jul 3, 2003)

Do you believe that Hobbits had the ability to use magic?


----------



## vgunn (Jul 3, 2003)

I know it sounds like a one-sided argument, especially with what Tolkiened mentioned in Concerning Hobbits. However, maybe someone thinks otherwise and has a legitimate reason for doing so.


----------



## BlackCaptain (Jul 3, 2003)

There's no such thing as magic. There's a level of coorespondance with nature, and there's a level of alteration on the real world that you could have, which I guess is as close to magic as you could get in Middle Earth (A skill that belongs only to Wizards), but no magic. The closest thing Hobbits have to magic is making food disapear


----------



## Confusticated (Jul 3, 2003)

If you mean: Can hobbits be the origin of 'magic' as elves or even the Dundain?

I would say no. That is, they do not do things (except for disapear quickly when humans show up ) that men would say are 'magic'.

But if you are asking if they could be effected by 'magic' such as elvish drinks or healing, then yes. They do not make a sword glow blue, but they could use one. But now I suppose if you have a hobbit with enough desire to learn the craft, there is nothing from stopping him from being instructed and reaching a lower (than elves) level of 'magic'.

That's just what I think.


----------



## YayGollum (Jul 3, 2003)

Of course the nasssty hobbitses could use magic! If I can, they can. But then, if you people are talking about real magic, I don't know. Ask a witch. There are too many already nowadays.


----------



## Maerbenn (Jul 4, 2003)

*Learning magic*



> _Originally posted by Nóm _
> *But now I suppose if you have a hobbit with enough desire to learn the craft, there is nothing from stopping him from being instructed and reaching a lower (than elves) level of 'magic'. *


 From letter #155:


> Anyway, a difference in the use of 'magic' in this story is that it is not to be come by by 'lore' or spells; but is in an inherent power not possessed or attainable by Men as such.


----------



## Confusticated (Jul 4, 2003)

What about the Dunedain blades wound with spells? If these men could reach the skill level, why not other men or hobbits?

How about Haldir telking Sam that had they knew his interest in ropes they could have taught him? And was that a 'magic' rope?


----------



## YayGollum (Jul 4, 2003)

Makes all kinds of sense to me. Also, am I a crazy person for remembering something about Faramir and the evil torturer Gandalf teaching him stuffs? Or was he just learning things having nothing to do with magic? I don't remember. oh well. Wasn't Beorn just some kind of human that got to learn a little magic?


----------



## Lantarion (Jul 4, 2003)

Did the Númenóreans themselves enchant their blades, or did the Elves of Tol Eressëa do it for them?


----------



## Beleg (Jul 5, 2003)

The blades talked about are the Blades of Dunedain of Arnor; such as the Hobbit's found in the Barrow Downs.


----------



## Lantarion (Jul 5, 2003)

This quote proves otherwise, Beleg:


> _From TTT; The Departure of Boromir_
> Quickly they searched the bodies of the Orcs, gathering their swords and cloven helms and shields into a heap.
> 'See!' cried Aragorn. 'Here we find tokens!' He picked out from the pile of grim weapons and knives, leaf-bladed, damasked in gold and red; and searching further he found also the sheaths, black, set with small red gems. 'No orc-tools these!' he said. 'They were borne by the hobbits. Doubtless the Orcs despoiled them, but feared to keep the knives, knowing them for what they are: work of Westernesse, wound about with spells for the bane of Mordor...'


----------



## Evenstar373 (Jul 5, 2003)

I don't think so because Sam or Pippin or Merry wanted to know if if elves knew magic or somithing like that ( I can't rember)

Kim


----------



## Beleg (Jul 5, 2003)

> _LOTR, Fog on the Barrow Downs, Chapter VIII_
> 'Old knives are long enough as swords for hobbit-people,' he said. 'Sharp blades are good to have, if Shire-folk go walking, east, south, or far away into dark and danger.' Then he told them that these blades were forged many long years ago by Men of Westernesse:* they were foes of the Dark Lord, but they were overcome by the evil king of Carn Dûm in the Land of Angmar.*




Here the term 'westernesse' is regarded as Men of Arnor.


----------



## BlackCaptain (Jul 5, 2003)

I wonder who voted yes...


----------



## Lantarion (Jul 5, 2003)

Beleg, you're right: in that aprt the _people_ are referred to as the Men of Westernesse, i.e. the Númenóreans. The people of Arnor had, AFAIK, a considerable amount of Númenórean blood in them, and were called Men of Westernesse.
However, 'Westernesse' as a _place_ is always used for Númenor, not for Arnor.


----------



## YayGollum (Jul 5, 2003)

I voted for the yes thing. Why not? It doesn't look like too many people paid attention to my posts, though. oh well. I asked questions. If people would answer them, my vote might make more sense.


----------



## Confusticated (Jul 5, 2003)

After the death of the Witch-King:


> So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dunedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king.




Again we have the phrase 'work of Westernesse'. But the blades were wrought in Arnor.


----------



## BlackCaptain (Jul 5, 2003)

Probably just used loosely as 'Men of Numenorë blood made these, and they were made specialy for deffense against sorcery.'

Now me, being a sorcerer, would be the target of these Blades, which were so patheticaly used against me (attempted to be used against me I should say) in the wars of the North/Arnor.


----------



## Confusticated (Jul 5, 2003)

But craven you ran away when Glorfindel strode up. I love that! 

I don't have access to the Letters right now, and have read very little of them, but because of the quote Maerbenn has provided I wonder how Tolkien explained some of the apparant use of 'magic' by men. The blades, and Isildur's curse upon those oathbreakers for example. 

I wonder if he did explain these things, or if he was unsure about them. Maerbenn, do you know if there is anything like this in Letters?


----------



## BlackCaptain (Jul 6, 2003)

Well Glorfindell is an Elf! I'm just a Man! Undead yes, but still just a man! Everyone knows the Valar stacked the Elves with all the strength and handsomness and stuff! 

Plus I just didn't wana humiliate him too bad. Breaking poor little Elves morale is just TOO fun for me. I'd have laughed myself to death! 

But back on topic... Perhaps these Barrow Blades of the Back Stabbing Rats (You people call them Hobbits) were cursed by the Barrow Wights? Now there's an idea. They were men of Westernessë were they not? And they sure as heck didn't like me. So why not curse the things unfairly against me? I'd have done it if I was a Barrow Wight


----------



## Maerbenn (Jul 6, 2003)

*Mannish magic*



> _Originally posted by Nóm _
> *I don't have access to the Letters right now, and have read very little of them, but because of the quote Maerbenn has provided I wonder how Tolkien explained some of the apparant use of 'magic' by men. The blades, and Isildur's curse upon those oathbreakers for example.
> 
> I wonder if he did explain these things, or if he was unsure about them. Maerbenn, do you know if there is anything like this in Letters? *


 There is actually a footnote attached to the text I quoted where Tolkien questions his own statement's veracity: 'But the Numenoreans used "spells" in making swords?'
Also of note is that this 'letter' is actually a portion of a draft for letter #154 where this portion of the letter was excised from the sent version.

I think that if it were completely absent from Man's 'nature', then several of his own plot devices would fail; this could be the reason why it was excised.

But I think we can infer that 'normal' (Middle and Dark according to the Númenórean classification?) Men didn't know magic, but other 'special' branches of the Human Race, like the Dúnedain and Drúedain (but not the Periain) used magic.

I'm still not sure about the Edain of the First Age. An interesting note is that they had so called wise-women; Andreth seems to have been a seer.


----------



## YayGollum (Jul 6, 2003)

Got it. Noone feels like paying attention to my questions. That's always nice.  Well, this Maerbenn person wrote something about certain human types being able to use magic. I happen to know that hobbitses have magic already. Read that The Hobbit book. They're magically quiet. I love that part where they're messing around in the woods near those three superly cool trolls. It says something about how the Dwarves and the hobbit could have walked achingly close to some human and not get heard.


----------



## klugiglugus (Jul 13, 2003)

Hobbits don't need to use magic also it wouldn't be socially acceptable for them to.


----------



## YayGollum (Jul 13, 2003)

Who says? It seems to me to be that these people only feel like talking about magical type things that come naturally to crazy fantastical type things. The nasssty hobbitses can't choose to lose certain things that are natural for them. Or are you just talking about magical type things that aren't natural for them? I wouldn't think that they'd especially mind seeing a magic show, but I don't think you were talking about the fake stuff.


----------



## Ardamir the Blessed (Jul 16, 2003)

Something that might be related to this:

Footnote to letter #131:


> They [Hobbits] are *entirely without non-human powers*, but are represented as being more in touch with 'nature' (the soil and other living things, plants and animals), and abnormally, for humans, free from ambition or greed of wealth.


----------



## YayGollum (Jul 16, 2003)

That abnormal thing sounds like a creepy power to me.  Anyways, Beorn was a type of human. He had magic. The nasssty hobbitses could have figured it out, too, as far as I know. Also, that The Hobbit book still said the thing about hobbitses being especially quiet. Sounds like a creepy power to me. Or should we just disregard that because of the craziness that's not in the story?


----------



## goldmare (Jul 25, 2003)

I don't know whether or not Hobbits could use magic, and frankly I think this has been a topic too long debated, but in any case, if they couldn't I wish they could. And if they could, well, then, I'm happy. I WANT them to, isn't that enough?! (Sniff)


----------



## Wonko The Sane (Sep 7, 2003)

There was actually no "magic" in Tolkien.
The Elves "magic" was called magic only because it was unexplainable by men, really what it was was that Elves had a greater influence over nature and their surroundings and a more intimate relationship with those things than men and hobbits did. Also they were closer to the Iluvatar...

As for the Istari, Maiar, and Valar....their magic wasn't magic anymore than we'd say Jesus had magic, they had a sort of divine power and a control of elements, space, time, etc. but not really what we'd call magic.

Men and Hobbits did not have this control, though the Edain did have a closer relationship to nature and the ways and powers of these other groups, they didn't have control over it.

So the answer is no.


----------



## YayGollum (Sep 7, 2003)

Did you not read my posts? Ack! What about Beorn and the nasssty hobbit creepy ability to be especially and magically quiet and things? Forget the piddly little fact that there's no such thing as magic. Anything that might ever be confused for magic counts. Like the two things that I mentioned. Also, they can still do magic tricks.


----------



## Wonko The Sane (Sep 7, 2003)

Beorn wasn't a man, he was a Beorning, part man part something else.
He was a different kind of creature altogether.
As was Tom Bombadil.

And Hobbits being quiet when they walked is no more a magical ability than certain native american tribes being proficient at the same thing.

They've just gotten used to needing to go unnoticed and they're familiar with their land. It's not "magic" not even by the Tolkien's elf sort of definition.


----------



## YayGollum (Sep 7, 2003)

Huh. I thought that I just posted in this place. Where'd the thing go? oh well. I'll write as much of it as I can remember. Why would you say that the nasssty hobbitses didn't have magic? Did you not read whatever posts at least I made in here? oh well. sorry about that. Beorn was some time of human as far as I know, and he had magic. The nasssty hobbitses had some messed up and creepy and silent type magic, if you feel like paying attention to The Hobbit. oh well. Forget about what that Tolkien guy says about magic. It seems to me to be that we're talking about anything that might be confused with magic. Like the two things that I mentioned.


----------



## Wonko The Sane (Sep 7, 2003)

The Hobbits had what men might have confused as magic, and they acted in such a way (moving silently and quickly and staying out of sight) that they would SUGGEST a sort of magical quality, but they didn't actually have magic.
And while Beorn took the shape of a human, he was not a true human, and therefore doesn't count in the statement that men didn't have magic.


----------



## YayGollum (Sep 7, 2003)

Hm. There must have been something wrong with my evil computer. It wouldn't let me see that I had written pretty much the same thing before. oh well. Anyways, I thought that both Beorn and the nasssty hobbitses were just some messed up type of human. I had a crazy theory about the origin of hobbitses one time that linked them to Beornings. Wouldn't know where to find it, though. oh well. I thought that that The Hobbit book said that the nasssty hobbitses definitely had some creepy type of quiet magic stuff. That they and the Dwarves could have walked achingly close to some average human and not get noticed. Sounds like some creepy magic to me. The book never said that the human was blind.


----------



## Wonko The Sane (Sep 8, 2003)

Super-normal abilities are not necessarily magic.
They're different creatures. If you walk in the forests in Thailand a Tiger can pass within feet of you and you won't hear a thing until they pounce on you.
It's not magic. It's stealth. They learn it through instinct, their environment, etc.


----------



## YayGollum (Sep 8, 2003)

No, really?  Maybe I just made that part of the book up in my head. I don't know. I don't have a copy of the thing anywhere with me at the moment, but I remember the thing talking about some achingly evil and magical type ability.


----------



## Helcaraxë (Sep 12, 2003)

The Numenorians putting spells on their swords was a form of Goetia (necromancy in the case of the Enemy, or "artistic magic" in the case of the elves), not magia (inherent power). Goetia is an acquired skill, while inherent magic is an inborn power. So I suppose hobbits could learn goetia, but not magia.


----------



## Starflower (Sep 12, 2003)

NO!!!!!!!!!!!

of course the hobbitses can't do magic! 
actually it is said in The Hobbit, "they do not possess any magic as you and I would understand it, unless the skill of disappearing quietly into the woods is considered magic". There. 
And if they used elven enchanted blades then the magic would be IN THE BLADES, not in the hobbits.



Starflower


----------



## Wonko The Sane (Sep 12, 2003)

Thank you for finding the quote! I was looking for it! 


Here's another quote from the Letter that's used to preface The Sil where Tolkien talks about "magic":



> -and so to the Machine (or Magic). By the last I intend all use of external plans or devices (apparatus) instead of developments of the inherent inner powers or talents - or even the use of these talents with the corrupted motive of dominating: bull-dozing the real world, or coercing other wills. The Machine is our more obvious modern form though more closely related to Magic than is usually recognised.
> 
> I have not used 'magic' consistentently, and indeed the Elven-queen Galadriel is obliged to remonstrate with the Hobbits on their confused use of the towrd both for the devices and operations of the Enemy, and for those of the Elves. I have not, because there is not a word for the latter (since all human stories have suffered the same confusion). But the Elves are there (in my tales) to demonstrate the difference. There 'magic' is Art, delivered from many of its human limitations: more effortless, more quick, more complete (product, and vision in unflawed correspondence). And it's object is Art not Power, sub-creation not domination and tyrranous re-forming of Creation.




That quote has always helped me immensely in understanding what Tolkien intended for "magic" in his worlds.

Edit- If there are any misspellings or typos in the above quote please let me know, I copied it over from my copy of The Sil and I don't have a bookstand so I had the book in my lap and I typed it without looking at the screen...I re-read it to see if there were any typos...but I may have missed some.


----------



## YayGollum (Sep 13, 2003)

Aha! ---> unless the skill of disappearing quietly into the woods is considered magic

So it is magic. At least to some people. *sniff* Also, are the spelling errors that huge of a deal? Is towrd a word?


----------



## goldmare (Sep 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Wonko The Sane _
> *There was actually no "magic" in Tolkien.
> The Elves "magic" was called magic only because it was unexplainable by men, really what it was was that Elves had a greater influence over nature and their surroundings and a more intimate relationship with those things than men and hobbits did. Also they were closer to the Iluvatar...
> 
> ...



Isn't "control of the elements, space, time, etc." considered by most people to be magic?

Ok. First let's define the word "magic." The dictionary says: "Magic is the general term for any of the supposed arts of producing marvelous effects by supernatural or occult power and is figuratively applied to any extraordinary, seemingly inexplicable power." It also defines magic as: "1) the use of charms, spells, and rituals in seeking or pretending to cause or control events, or govern certain natural or supernatural forces; or 2) any mysterious, seemingly inexplicable, or extraordinary power or quality."

I'm inclined to agree with Wonko the Sane, on some things. It really all depends on how you define magic. YayGollum, you seem to be going with the second definition, and Wonko the Sane, you seem to be saying that there is no such thing as magic, that everything is either a natural ability or a divine power. I think YayGollum's definition is a little too broad, but then again, there are some abilities that simply aren't normal for any creature, and thus should be labeled magic.

I think that any control of nature is a form of magic in itself, simply because most creatures don't have the ability to control something separate from themselves. But I think a human, with practice, could learn to be stealthy like the hobbits, and so what the hobbits possess is more probably just a natural ability for creeping around unseen. Humans couldn't learn to influence their surroundings as elves do, unless you are talking about the Edain, but I think they had elven blood in them. Elves have an ability to influence their surroundings, but hobbits don't. Hobbits have a greater control over their own stealth, which is something I think anyone could learn with time. So, I think Elves have magic, and humans and hobbits don't. What the Istari, Maiar, and Valar have is divine power, which is a kind of magic in its own way, but should be put into a group all by itself.

It all comes down to what they have influence over. Hobbits can influence their own bodies, and thus are able to walk noiselessly. Elves can influence something separate from themselves, which isn't normal for any other creature.

I've yakked enough. Basically I'm saying that Elves have magic and hobbits don't, for reasons listed above.


----------

