# Middle Earth was created from sound?



## Michel Delving (Mar 17, 2003)

This book is the work of a madman, obviously. 

What the hell is going on. Just started it, don't know if I'll ever finish it.

I wish he'd stop changing people names every three lines.

The thought became song and the song became flesh?


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## Khamul (Mar 17, 2003)

The song created the basic structure in the minds of the Valar, and it basically was the planning of Middle Earth, at least in my interpretation.


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## Melko Belcha (Mar 17, 2003)

think the concept is just amazing. The entire history of the world is tide into the song. You see the history unfold before, the battles between the other Ainur and Melkor, then Iluvatar raised the second theme (Elves) and when Melkor raised up again Iluvatar began the third theme (Men). The notes of the third theme that intertwine with the second theme is the marrages of Man and Elf.

At lest thats how I read it.


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## Niniel (Mar 18, 2003)

Yeah, that's what I think too. It's a really interesting idea to have the world be created of sound; well, the song is just a way to create the concept of the world; what it will be like and what will happen in it. To actually make it real, a all-powerful God is needed (Ilúvatar), who can make things be by willing them to be real.


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## Gothmog (Mar 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michel Delving _
> *This book is the work of a madman, obviously.
> 
> What the hell is going on. Just started it, don't know if I'll ever finish it.
> ...


 It is no more "Mad" than the Christian belief that the world was created by "The Word" of God. Still that is not surprising. Tolkien was a Christian and would not look at that in the same way as those of other beliefs.

ps. It was not by the "Song" that the world was made:


> Then there was unrest among the Ainur; but Ilúvatar called to them, and said: 'I know the desire of your minds that what ye have seen should verily be, not only in your thought, but even as ye yourselves are, and yet other. *Therefore I say: Eä! Let these things Be*! And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be; and those of you that will may go down into it.' And suddenly the Ainur saw afar off a light, as it were a cloud with a living heart of flame; and they knew that this was no vision only, but that Ilúvatar had made a new thing: Eä, the World that Is.


 It was by the "Word" of Iluvatar.


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## Michel Delving (Mar 18, 2003)

> It is no more "Mad" than the Christian belief that the world was created by "The Word" of God.



ABBBBBBBBBBSOLUTELY!

This book is the product if a Tolkien thought and Middle-Earth is made of the thought of Spirits which inhabit a void before thought.

Love the lampposts that Melkor breaks. And the Balrogs are here, _ a creature of the ancient world_ indeed.

If this is the 1st Age and LotR is the 3rd age will I ever see the 2nd age?

Is Chris Tolkien's History any good or the Lost Tales. Hobbit and Lord behind me, shall I walk further into these lands?


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## Gothmog (Mar 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michel Delving _
> *Is Chris Tolkien's History any good or the Lost Tales. Hobbit and Lord behind me, shall I walk further into these lands? *


 The History of Middle-earth and the Book of Lost Tales are all well worth reading. They give much insight into not only LotR but the whole creation of the mythology of the world of Tolkien.

My View. Read and enjoy.


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## Melko Belcha (Mar 18, 2003)

Start with Unfinished Tales and if you can handle the way it's written then move to The Book of Lost Tales.

Fantastic books.


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## Michel Delving (Mar 19, 2003)

I _will_ walk that lonesome valley!


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## Walter (Mar 22, 2003)

*Re: Re: Middle Earth was created from sound?*



> _Originally posted by Gothmog _ps. It was not by the "Song" that the world was made:
> It was by the "Word" of Iluvatar. [/B]


 I beg to differ, slightly, that is...

IMO the world was made by a creative act of Eru's will, the "Word" was merely accompanying that act...


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## Melko Belcha (Mar 22, 2003)

Letters #212


> The Ainur took part in the making of the world as 'sub-creators': in various degrees, after this fashion. They interpreted according to their powers, and completed in detail, the Design propounded to them by the One. This was propounded first in musical or abstract form, and then in an 'historical vision'. In the first interpretation, the vast Music of the Ainur, Melkor introduced alterations, not interpretations of the mind of the One, and great discord arose. The One presented this 'Music', including the apparent discords, as a visible 'history'.
> At this stage it had still only a validity, to which the validity of a 'story' among ourselves may be compared: it 'exists' in the mind of the teller, and derivatively in the minds of hearers, but not on the same plane as teller or hearers. When the One (the Teller) said Let it Be (hence the Elves called the world, the Universe, Ea - It IS), then the Tale became History, on the same plane as the hearers; and these could, if they desired, enter into it.


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## Gothmog (Mar 23, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Middle Earth was created from sound?*



> _Originally posted by Walter _
> *I beg to differ, slightly, that is...
> 
> IMO the world was made by a creative act of Eru's will, the "Word" was merely accompanying that act... *


I do not claim to know all of the creation myths that have been given by various peoples. But of those that I have read there is one thing that is constant through out. While the Will is the creative part in making the world what it is, the act of creation itself requires a catalist. This can be a physical action such as "Stirring with a Spear" or "The Breaking up of the Body". Or it can be an "Audible" caytalist such as the "Word

While you are correct in saying that it was "*a creative act of Eru's will*". You are totaly wrong in your comment that "*the "Word" was merely accompanying that act...* ". The "Word" was as important to the creation as was the will. And when such things are discussed it is the "Visible/Audible" aspect that will be mentioned as who can know that which is neither. 

If there is no catalist there is no "Act of Creation", it is the Catalist that allows the will to be released and the Creation to happen. Therefore, It is by the Word of Iluvatar that the Will of Iluvatar is released and Arda is Created.". Considering that Tolkien as well as being a christian and familier with the writings of the bible also knew much of other mythologies. So is it surprising that he would use something that probably "Felt Right To Him" as the basis of his creation in his books?


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## Walter (Mar 23, 2003)

I do not intend to argue with you, oh mighty Balrog, I was merely stating how I see that issue. 

Maybe it is also because I have difficulties imagining a purely spirtual being in the Void uttering "soundwaves" of a certain frequency (couple dozen Hertz) which would require an atmosphere to spread (and hence become "audible") at all. To me a term like "Eru said" has only a symbolic meaning with absolutely no connection to what we refer to as "speech"...



> So is it surprising that he would use something that probably "Felt Right To Him" as the basis of his creation in his books?


I am sorry, but I do not understand...


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## Gothmog (Mar 23, 2003)

For us "Audible" means as you say "Soundwaves" which for us travel through air and therefore can only occur when when we are on an existing planet. However, in the Ainulindale we find that Iluvatar can "Speak" to the Ainur and each can "Speak" to others. So there is "Words" that they can use, "Hear" and understand. I doubt that these "Sounds" would be "Audible" to us. But as we would not be there at the time it matters not. These "Words" would be the means of communication between the Ainur and Iluvatar and could be only projections of thought. What is not projected would not be "Audible" to others.

So when Iluvatar Projected his Thought "EA" this could be "Heard" by the Ainur and became the catalist for the release of his will.



> I am sorry, but I do not understand...



In creating his books Tolkien would have been able to look at many creation myths. He no doubt picked on that idea he was happy with. In doing so it had to be written in a manner that could be understood by the reader. He could have just put it that Iluvatar gestured and Arda was.


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## Beor (Mar 23, 2003)

I am very comfortable with the concept of 'sound' as most energy is discribed in terms of frequencies and is often treated as a form of wave. 

It is also a possibility that 'matter' as we know it (i.e. particles) are just very tightly packed, highly stable eddies and whirlpools of energy. 

JRRT may well have expressed something that could be closer to reality than the accepted wisdom of the day.


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## Walter (Mar 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Gothmog _
> *For us "Audible" means as you say "Soundwaves" which for us travel through air and therefore can only occur when when we are on an existing planet. However, in the Ainulindale we find that Iluvatar can "Speak" to the Ainur and each can "Speak" to others. So there is "Words" that they can use, "Hear" and understand. I doubt that these "Sounds" would be "Audible" to us. But as we would not be there at the time it matters not. These "Words" would be the means of communication between the Ainur and Iluvatar and could be only projections of thought. What is not projected would not be "Audible" to others.
> 
> So when Iluvatar Projected his Thought "EA" this could be "Heard" by the Ainur and became the catalist for the release of his will.
> ...


The crux with "sound" is, that it needs a compressible media to spread which apears as physicaly impossible withinin something that is described as sort of "Nothingness".

I too tend to imagine the communication between Eru and the Valar - (and hence also the "Music of the Ainur") rather as "thought-transfer" or "-projection", than as something which must be bound to a medium in order to enable a transfer.

Also - as a learned Chemist - I am not happy with the term "catalyst" either, as this is - roughly described - something that "reduces the activation energy for a given chemical process". 

So, clearly, in this theory of mine a "Word" (="thought-transfer" or projection) then cannot play a crucial role in any process of creation itself, but it can serve as a piece of information (for the Valar) that this process is now begun or finished...

But don't get me wrong, I find Tolkiens description of the conception of the universe through music and the final creation through the will of an "All-father" as well as the idea of the "Flame Imperishable" extremely beautiful and appealing and it is something I have not yet come across - in this form - in other creation myths.


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## Gothmog (Mar 24, 2003)

The use of the word "Sound" is something that would be likely to occur if information were to be truly translated from the concepts used in "Direct thought transfer" to those available for "Indirect Thought transfer" that is by the use of "Language". Without personal knowledge of direct thought transfer the concepts would need to be translated into what would seem to be the nearest verbal idea.

As for my use of the term "Catalyst" it seems that I was wrong to use this. Perhaps a better way of looking at it would be as a "Key" to the release of the Will. To have a powerful will with no restraint upon it puts me in mind of the Krell in "Forbidden Planet" they had vast power with no restraint upon their wills, this caused their destruction. So it is not unthinkable that such a powerful being as Iluvatar could have a restraint (even if Self Imposed) so that he would need to make a conscious gesture or thought projection for the release of his will. It is seen more than once that such occurs.

This is my view on the question of the "Word of Iluvatar". I post it not to argue about it but to try to put forth as clearly as have you just what my theory is on this question of "Sound" in the creation of Arda.


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## Beor (Mar 24, 2003)

To me the operative word is 'music', not 
'sound'. There is distinct reference to singing and music, with the Ainur singing as a choir and variations upon the themes.

This, IMHO, points towards the projection of harmonics, frequencies and interference patterns, not thought transfer per se.


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## Walter (Mar 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Gothmog _
> *The use of the word "Sound" is something that would be likely to occur if information were to be truly translated from the concepts used in "Direct thought transfer" to those available for "Indirect Thought transfer" that is by the use of "Language". Without personal knowledge of direct thought transfer the concepts would need to be translated into what would seem to be the nearest verbal idea.
> 
> As for my use of the term "Catalyst" it seems that I was wrong to use this. Perhaps a better way of looking at it would be as a "Key" to the release of the Will. To have a powerful will with no restraint upon it puts me in mind of the Krell in "Forbidden Planet" they had vast power with no restraint upon their wills, this caused their destruction. So it is not unthinkable that such a powerful being as Iluvatar could have a restraint (even if Self Imposed) so that he would need to make a conscious gesture or thought projection for the release of his will. It is seen more than once that such occurs.
> ...


Even if our theories are somewhat different, but now I understand...


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## Gothmog (Mar 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Walter _
> *Even if our theories are somewhat different, but now I understand... *


 So now we can agree to differ about this small point. 



> To me the operative word is 'music', not
> 'sound'. There is distinct reference to singing and music, with the Ainur singing as a choir and variations upon the themes.
> 
> This, IMHO, points towards the projection of harmonics, frequencies and interference patterns, not thought transfer per se.


 Beor, I understand your view. In my opinion the references to "music" and "singing as a choir" would be ideas used to represent concepts that do not exist in Spoken Language. However, your view is just as valid as either Walter's or mine.


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## Michel Delving (Mar 24, 2003)

This is getting more complicated than the book! Another intellectual can of worms. More interesting, I suppose than whether Beregond is going appear in the next movie etc. Of a more loftier thought process, more in keeping with The Work itself. I feel myself leaning to the Purist's realm but there's a mischievous Gollum scratching at my neck. I am getting totally lost with all the various races, places and faces in the book. I've kind of latched on to Morgoth as the only constant.

How about an easy question like: Is Ungoliant Shelob's Mom?


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