# Aren't Valar the bad guys?!



## Gil-Galad (Apr 12, 2002)

A friend of mine,who is not in this forum ,told me:
"Valar allow Earendil to reach Valinor,because he carries one of the silmarils.If he hadn't brought it with him,he would have been admitted.Valar don't help elves and people ,till Earendil comes with the silmaril.Why don't they accept any Noldor,but Earedil with the silmaril?Because they desire for them?Because of their greed?In fact aren't they the bad guys who help the elves at the last moment only because Earendil has come?And in smoe ways Morgoth is right that Valar are the bad dudes......."
That seemed to me pretty strange but not impossible.In fact Ulmo is the only one who is doing something for elves and people,because of his love.
I think that's very very strange statement...
What do you think?Tell me your personal opinion not what is written in Tolkien's works.:confused


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## Camille (Apr 12, 2002)

Hello Gil Galad!! I do not agree with your friend I do not think that the Valar were the bad guys, one of them only maybe (melkor) but not all of them.
I remember that Earendil was allow to aman not becuse he was carrying a Silmaril but because the light that was in the jewel allow him to penetrate the girdles that the Valar had around Valinor. It was something more deeper that "They wanted the jewels" it was the power of the light.
And remember that the Valar taught many thing to the eldar, and that Noldor were not abandoned in ME the Valar care enough to send them the Sun and the Moon, and if the noldor were not admitted it was because they made terrible things (kinslaying)


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## Anarchist (Apr 13, 2002)

I don't agree with you on them being bad but I don't like them. I guess they are rather ufair or they just don't mind a lot about the trouble and pain caused in ME. I was always annoyed on how they let Morgoth do his evil and make all this destruction and cause much pain. Some could say that they just let the people fight their own fights and didn't wish to interfere just to let the Elves and Men prove themselves. But this fight was an unfair one because Men, Elves and Dwarves where fighting against a Vala. They should had interfered before. But you can't say they are bad just for this.


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## Lantarion (Apr 13, 2002)

I also think they're a bit annoying: they let the people of Middle-Earth do everything for themselves, even though they love them! That's just weird. I understand that they wanted the later future generations to get through the ages without help, and that they would get used to not being pampered, but remaining invisible just because the Númenóreans became greedy. I think if the Valar had shown themselves to all the people of M-E and told them to stop acting like idiots then people like Sauron wouldn't have gained power.
But they were indeed the 'good guys': the ultimate good actually. They loved and cared for the Children of Ilúvatar, but were afraid of what they could do if the Valar told them to do something. They didn't want to take a chance like they did with Fëanor and the Noldor who followed him.
Welcome to the forum, Gil-galad!


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## HLGStrider (Apr 13, 2002)

I wouldn't say they were accepting the Simaril because they were greedy. I'd think that Middle Earth would be happy to get rid of the accursed thing... and I mean accursed literally. It didn't do Beren much good, nor anyone else who tried to be involved in it. There was a curse upon it, wasn't there? 
The Valar would be glad to keep that hot potato out of the hands of mortals and elves.


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## Gil-Galad (Apr 13, 2002)

Pontifex,
thank you for being so polite!
By the way I think you are right!But I can't get out of my mind something very simple,in fact!Why do they choose Earedil to reach Valinor?Why not someone else,who doesn't care a silmaril with him?Valar desire for them,aren't they?So when they see Earendil,carrying a silmaril they probably have said:"O-o,great he has something we want from quite long time.Why don't we allow him to reach Valinor and see what does he wants?"
I agree they love people and that they're the good guys,but isn't there a piece of evil which Morgoth has left in Valinor?


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## HLGStrider (Apr 13, 2002)

I suppose you could say there was something in it as a gift or offering... Almost all religions have a sort of tithe or sacrifice... some nice some nasty some just inconvenient. 

However, I still think that it was a nasty thing and they should've been glad to get rid of it.


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## Elwing (Apr 14, 2002)

The Valar were the ones that created the light in the first place and without that the silmarils would not of been so desirable. I think that the Valar were sort of teaching the people of ME by not helping them and that to gain forgiveness for going to ME they had to give up the thing that had so much to do with them leading in the first place, the silmaril so they weren't really bad they just wanted them to learn.


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## SpencerC18 (Apr 15, 2002)

They didn't help the noldor because they were being punished for leaving the blessed realm. They didn't help the people in middle earth alot because they are there to basically not meddle in mortal affairs, only in some cases did they do so.


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## Camille (Apr 15, 2002)

> I also think they're a bit annoying: they let the people of Middle-Earth do everything for themselves, even though they love them! That's just weird


I do not agree I think that maybe the valar made a mistake being so open with the elves as you know in third age they did not forget ME and they sent the Istari but they were in human form to avoid the mistakes of the past.
And what would be the meaning of living if someone take care of you, what would happend in you were overprotected? you will wish to do things by your own and I think that in ME word the people have free will too.


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## Lantarion (Apr 15, 2002)

I know, and that's just my point: the Valar did not want to overprotect or 'spoil' the inhabitants of Middle-Earth because they wanted to see if they could cope without them, like their ancestors from Beleriand. I just meant that perhaps they were a bit too strict on their non-contact policy with Middle-Earth. Sure, they sent the Istari, and that was great. But they didn't even try to reconcile with the people of Middle-Earth, with the remaining Noldor especially.


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## BelDain (Apr 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Gil-Galad _
> *A friend of mine,who is not in this forum ,told me:
> "Valar allow Earendil to reach Valinor,because he carries one of the silmarils.If he hadn't brought it with him,he would have been admitted.Valar don't help elves and people ,till Earendil comes with the silmaril.Why don't they accept any Noldor,but Earedil with the silmaril?Because they desire for them?Because of their greed?In fact aren't they the bad guys who help the elves at the last moment only because Earendil has come?And in smoe ways Morgoth is right that Valar are the bad dudes......."
> That seemed to me pretty strange but not impossible.In fact Ulmo is the only one who is doing something for elves and people,because of his love.
> ...



The Valar didn't want the Silmaril for themselves. In fact, Earendil still sails the seas of Ea with it affixed to his brow. Rather than being kept close in Aman; everyday its blessed light is shared with all of Arda.


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## tom_bombadil (Apr 16, 2002)

how dare you i tom bombadill am a valar and i am certinaly not evil


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## pohuist (Apr 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by tom_bombadil _
> *how dare you i tom bombadill am a valar and i am certinaly not evil *



Which one, may I ask? (Your name doesn't appear among Ainur who descended to Arda)


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## Lantarion (Apr 16, 2002)

Indeed, and why would you refer to your race as plural? It's VALA for singular!!!!! 
Anyway, you shouldn't make such radical remarks around here, as not many here even think of Tom as a Vala. He is what he is, and let's not get into this again. 
But welcome anyway, Tommy.


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## Camille (Apr 16, 2002)

Mmmm Tom= Vala do not think so but anyway..


> But they didn't even try to reconcile with the people of Middle-Earth, with the remaining Noldor especially.


Do not agree again , they were reconciled enough to let the Noldor come back to Aman, but they wanted yo remaind in ME the land were they have fought so long...


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## Tyaronumen (Apr 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Pontifex _
> *I know, and that's just my point: the Valar did not want to overprotect or 'spoil' the inhabitants of Middle-Earth because they wanted to see if they could cope without them, like their ancestors from Beleriand. I just meant that perhaps they were a bit too strict on their non-contact policy with Middle-Earth. Sure, they sent the Istari, and that was great. But they didn't even try to reconcile with the people of Middle-Earth, with the remaining Noldor especially. *



Yeah, well sometimes parents don't feel that they need to reconcile with their children (which is *something* like the relationship of the Valar to the other free peoples, even though it was more of a sibling relationship, really), especially if the parents are the ones who are RIGHT.

Eventually (or not), the children will learn the value of their parents wisdom, at which point reconciliation becomes unnecessary because there is no longer anything to reconcile.


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## Gil-Galad (Apr 16, 2002)

I think Pontifex is right in a way that Vala were too strict with their policy of non-contact.
I know that the silmaril showed Earendil's way to Aman.O.K ,but he reached Aman because Vala allowed him to reach them.
I still think that they probably wanted to have it.Why did they let Earednil and didn't kill him and his people?Because Vala wanted to help all elves and people?! o-o-o I don't think so.Why didn't they help elves and people earlier?They just wanted the silmaril cause the two trees were destroyed and their light was lost.Only the silmarils had the same light.And Vala desired for them and Earendil came and brought one of them.
In conclusion I would say they were greedy,and that's why they let Earendil to reach them.


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## Camille (Apr 16, 2002)

If the Valar had desired the silmarills they have enough power to get them back if they wanted.
I think that what let Earendil went through all Stuff that the Valar put around Valinor was the power of the Light not that the Valar wanted the Silmaril.


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## Grond (Apr 16, 2002)

Let's see... I need help... I call on the Valar... They come to my aid and make my world a perfect place with no conflict, challenges, excitement, development... BORING!!!

If that is what had been intended when the whole shooting match started, Eru would have simply created Eressea and populated it with Elves and Man living in perfect harmony and unity. But... that wasn't his plan. He wanted the races that he created to develop and learn and become better and greater than they were when they started so... they had to be challenged. 

That is the story of life... in any universe.


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## Camille (Apr 17, 2002)

Totally agree


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## Lantarion (Apr 17, 2002)

That's right. So in a way it is Eru's will to let us suffer, but it is for our own good. Like God in Christianity, pretty much.
I agree 100 per cent, but I just mean that the Valar could have had at least *some* contact with the people of Middle-Earth, so they would know what to believe in. On the other hand that would raise some pretty high expectations from the less advanced people (ie. let the Valar do it for us)..


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## HLGStrider (Apr 17, 2002)

They had contact with Tuor.


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## Gil-Galad (Apr 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> *They had contact with Tuor. *


 Ulmo makes a contact with Tuor but nothing more,it dosen't happen anymore.You shouldn't forget that Ulmo loves elves and people more than every other Vala.
I support Pontifex's view that Valar were too strict with their policy of non-contact with elves and people.The problem is that Valar decided to help when Earendil came with something they really want to have-The Silmaril.


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## HLGStrider (Apr 20, 2002)

I still think the thing was cursed... also, I forget who said it but they had a point, the Valar did not keep the Silmaril. They sent it up into the sky... 

I see as if we sent a guy with all our atomic capabilities to God, you know the very useful atomic energy we use to blow each other up with? Sure, Atomic energy is a great thing, but we didn't use it very well. Same with the Silmaril. It was causing trouble. The Valar were merciful to give it back at all. Anyway, there is an argument that since it was made out of the light from their trees it was theirs in the first place.


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