# Death of the Witch-King



## Mr. Underhill (Oct 9, 2002)

When the Lord of the Nazgul was slain by Eowyn, did his soul depart to the Halls of Mandos like those of other men, or was his fate so bound to the Ring(s) that his doom was more like Sauron's? Any thoughts??


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## Anamatar IV (Oct 9, 2002)

he was a regular man. Departed to the hall of mandos. Ring became useless and he just plain good ol american died.


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## gate7ole (Oct 9, 2002)

First, men who die do not go to the Halls of Mandos. There is a lot of misunderstanding about this matter. Tolkien's work has a few contradictions on this matter, but I think the most accurate answer is that men do NOT go to the Halls, but somewhere else, outside Arda, which only Illuvatar, Mandos and Manwe know.
As for the question, since the Nazgul where men, they would be sent to the same place with other men (whatever it is). Being good or evil has nothing to do with their afterlife destination. The basic difference will be after the Final Battle, when all will be judged and probably the Nazgul will have a nasty destiny.


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## Confusticated (Oct 9, 2002)

I wouldn't say that he "plain ol' American died" since he was a wraith and not really living anyhow. He was a slave to Sauron, so I can only guess that when (in my interpretations Merry killed him, not Eowyn) Merry's sword stuck him, he was actually just being released from Sauron's command and was able to fully join the dead...wherever that may be. As gate7ole already pointed out, is not known to be the halls of Mandos. Some elves believe that men have a place in the halls of Mandos but the only who know where men go after death are Iluvatar, Manwe and Mandos. I do not know if those names mean anything to you Mr. Underhill..but they will to Anamatar...


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## Anamatar IV (Oct 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Confusticated _
> *in my interpretations Merry killed him, not Eowyn) Merry's sword stuck him, he was *



WHAT WHAT WHAT?!?!?!?


> Merrys sword had stabbed him from behind, shearing through the black mantle and passing up beneath the hauberk had peirced the sinew behind his mighty knee.



But later...



> Then tottering, struggling up, with her last strength she drove her sword between the crown and the mantle...



The return of the king-The battle of the pelannor feilds.

I think eowyns blow did more damage. As we know from the fellowship of the ring a ringwraith does not get killed if it is stabbed in any old place. Remember how frodo stabbed him in weathertop?


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## Gothmog (Oct 9, 2002)

Anamatar IV,
While I agree with you about Merry and Eowyn, you are not correct about Frodo stabbing the witch King on weathertop.


> 'Look!' he cried; and stooping he lifted from the ground a black cloak that had lain there hidden by the darkness. A foot above the lower hem there was a slash. 'This was the stroke of Frodo's sword,' he said. 'The only hurt that it did to his enemy, I fear; for it is unharmed, but all blades perish that pierce that dreadful King. More deadly to him was the name of Elbereth.'


 From tFotR: chapter 12: Flight to the Ford.

As for Men going/not going to the Halls of Mandos. it is my view that they do indeed go there but to them it is but the doorway to leave Arda.


> Therefore he summoned Beren, and even as Lúthien had spoken in the hour of his death they met again beyond the Western Sea. But Mandos had no power to withhold the spirits of Men that were dead within the confines of the world, after their time of waiting; nor could he change the fates of the Children of Ilúvatar.


 from The Silmarillion: of Beren and Luthien.

This gives the view that Men go to Mandos and by that path go on to leave the confines of the world.


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## Anamatar IV (Oct 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Gothmog _
> *Anamatar IV,
> While I agree with you about Merry and Eowyn, you are not correct about Frodo stabbing the witch King on weathertop.
> *



But the wraiths were not "bodies." they were spirits that filled the robes. Considering this would any slash to any part of the robes scrape them? And think of this one:



> At the same time he struck at the feet of his enemy.



FOTR A knife in the dark.


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## Confusticated (Oct 9, 2002)

> So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dunedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. *No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.*


That is why I think that Merry did it and not Eowyn.


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## Elu Thingol (Oct 9, 2002)

> _Posted by Anamatar IV_
> he was a regular man



It seems odd that you would say that for I don't think he was a man at all. Yes, the Nazgul used to be a men, but what they are now is anything but men.



> "They themselves do not see the world of light as we do, but our shapes cast shadows in their minds, which only the noon sun destroys; and in the dark they perceive many signs and forms that are hidden from us: then they are to be the most feared. And at all times they smell the blood of living things, desiring and hating it. Senses, too, there are other than sight or smell." (Fellowship of the Ring, A Knife in the Dark)



They don't really sound like men at all do they?


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## Grond (Oct 9, 2002)

> _from The Return of the King, The Houses of Healing_
> ...'Here there is a grievous hurt and a heavy blow. The arm that was broken has been tended with due skill, and it will mend in time, if she has the strength to live: It is the shield-arm that is maimed; *but the chief evil comes through the sword-arm.* In that there now seems no life, although it is unbroken. 'Alas! For she was pitted against a foe beyond the strength of her mind or body. And those who will *take a weapon to such an enemy must be sterner than steel*, if the very shock shall not destroy them.'


 I think that Aragorn thought she made contact. Also, Confusticated... it states that no other weapon could have dealt him a "wound so bitter". It doesn't say death blow. The spells that knit his knee together were undone but that did not mean his death, it meant a cruel and bitter wound. At least that is my opinion on the matter.


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## Grond (Oct 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Elu Thingol _
> *It seems odd that you would say that for I don't think he was a man at all. Yes, the Nazgul used to be a men, but what they are now is anything but men.
> 
> They don't really sound like men at all do they? *


Yes, the were changed but still men. Neither Sauron nor Melkor had the ability to change the essence of life. All they could do was corrupt that which was. I don't think they could capture the soul for eternity unless they proved victorious. They were left only being able to enslave the soul while they had mastery. Once their mastery ended, the soul again followed it's predestined path to the Halls of Mandos or elsewhere.


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## Confusticated (Oct 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Grond _
> *I think that Aragorn thought she made contact. Also, Confusticated... it states that no other weapon could have dealt him a "wound so bitter". It doesn't say death blow. The spells that knit his knee together were undone but that did not mean his death, it meant a cruel and bitter wound. At least that is my opinion on the matter.  *


Of course it doesn't say "death blow".. If that were the case this wouldn't be open to interpretation.
The fact that no other weapon could have dealt a wound so bitter tells me that Merry's blow was the most bitter. I take that to mean that Merry did a greater damage than Eowyn. Because of that I rather say that Merry killed the Nazgul than Eowyn. I will even say that they killed him together...but I will not say that Eowyn killed him.


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## HLGStrider (Oct 10, 2002)

I think Merry made him "Killable" but Eowyn killed him... 

Sort of like in the Mummy when Evelyn reads the thing out of the book. The horse guys swoop down, and he's mortal. Then What's his name stabs him. The hero obviously killed him, but he wouldn't have been able to if Evie darling hadn't stepped in...

I never thought the day would come when I'd compare Tolkien to the Mummy...


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## Grond (Oct 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> *...I never thought the day would come when I'd compare Tolkien to the Mummy... *


 Grond falls to the floor, wracked with spasms of laughter that bring tears to his eyes and wetness to his trousers. 

Elgee... you say the darndest things. ROFL!!!!!!!


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## HLGStrider (Oct 10, 2002)

What else am I here for?

Well, you have to admit, I am dropping my standards a little bit... but you do get my point, don't you?


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## HLGStrider (Oct 10, 2002)

OH!!! And just one more quick question before the Chief Weirdo goes to bed... Exactly how does one "Good Old American" Die... Is there a French way to die? An Irish way? If one dies on the border between Canada and America does he die in an American way or a Canadian way? If one is an immigrant does one have to learn a new way to die before one can leave one's country? Why cannot we all die equally? Are not all death's equal in the sight of the Lord? And if one is killed by an American did one die the America method? If one dies at the hand of a French man when one is an American did one die the French or American way? 


I think that might be more than one question.


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## Grond (Oct 10, 2002)

Absolutement my dear Elgee. Your point is well taken and valid. It is just a bit humorous to be comparing the Mummy and LotR.


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## Elu Thingol (Oct 10, 2002)

Before I make my next statement Grond I would like to know exactly what you think about the fate of man.



> _Posted by Grond_
> Once their mastery ended, the soul again followed it's predestined path to the Halls of Mandos or elsewhere.



So, which do you think it is? The Halls of Mandos or elsewhere? and if you think it is both please explain.


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## Grond (Oct 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Elu Thingol _
> *Before I make my next statement Grond I would like to know exactly what you think about the fate of man.
> 
> So, which do you think it is? The Halls of Mandos or elsewhere? and if you think it is both please explain. *


 I think Man leaves the confines of this world as is stated in the following quote.


> _from The Silmarillion, Quenta Silmarillion, Of the Beginning of Days_
> It is one with this gift of freedom that the children of Men dwell only a short space in the world alive, and are not bound to it, and depart soon whither the Elves know not. Whereas the Elves remain until the end of days, and their love to the Earth and all the world is more single and more poignant therefore, and as the years lengthen ever more sorrowful. For the Elves die not till the world dies, unless they are slain or waste in grief (and to both these seeming deaths they are subject); neither does age subdue their strength, unless one grow weary of ten thousand centuries; and dying they are gathered to the halls of Mandos in Valinor, whence they may in time return. *But the sons of men die indeed, and leave the world; wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers. Death is their fate, the gift of Ilúvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy.* But Melkor has cast his shadow upon it, and confounded it with darkness, and brought forth evil out of good, and fear out of hope. Yet of old the Valar declared to the Elves in Valinor that Men shall join in the Second Music of the Ainur; whereas Ilúvatar has not revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the World's end, and Melkor has not discovered it.


Since the Halls of Mandos are technically in Valinor and since Valinor is technically a part of the world of Middle-earth, I can only assume that they go elsewhere.


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## Gothmog (Oct 10, 2002)

> But the wraiths were not "bodies." they were spirits that filled the robes. Considering this would any slash to any part of the robes scrape them? And think of this one:


Anamatar IV, You have missed the main point of the quote I gave which proves that he did not stab the witch king.


> 'The only hurt that it did to his enemy, I fear; for it is unharmed, but all blades perish that pierce that dreadful King.


 The fact that Frodo's sword was still intact shows that it did not do any harm to the Lord of the Nazgul.

Elu Thingol,


> So, which do you think it is? The Halls of Mandos or elsewhere? and if you think it is both please explain.


 I know that this question was to Grond but my view is both.When Men leave the world they go to the place appointed by Iluvatar. So it would make sense for them to go to one place within the world for them to start their journey. The most suitable place for spirits to go to before leaving would be that place that is set up to recieve spirits. Therefore I believe that the spirits of Men do go to some place within the halls of Mandos to find the path to that place set for them by Iluvatar.


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## Grond (Oct 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Gothmog _
> *...So it would make sense for them to go to one place within the world for them to start their journey. The most suitable place for spirits to go to before leaving would be that place that is set up to recieve spirits. Therefore I believe that the spirits of Men do go to some place within the halls of Mandos to find the path to that place set for them by Iluvatar. *


Actually it says only Manwe, Mandos and Eru know what path the spirits of Man follow. I think that a home (even a temporary one) in the Halls of Mandos would create "spectral confusion" and that Man has his own Path outside of the domain of Mandos. But...hey... that's just me.


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## Cian (Oct 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Confusticated _
> * ... Because of that I rather say that Merry killed the Nazgul than Eowyn. I will even say that they killed him together... but I will not say that Eowyn killed him. *



Tolkien wrote that by Éowyn's hand the Witch-king of Angmar was destroyed (in a longer version of The Tale of Years that he desired for publication).

In ROTK Appendices it tells that Merry "aided" in the deed of bringing the WK to nothing ~ aided Éowyn, the principle 'deed-doer' to my mind.


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## Elu Thingol (Oct 10, 2002)

If Grond is correct and the soul of the Wraith is preserved and follows the path it was meant to take, this quote would back up the point that men's souls do not go to the Halls of Mandos. Also, this would pertain to the original question of where the witch king went.



> "...and a cry went up into the shuddering air, and faded to a shrill wailing, passing with the wind, a voice bodiless and thin that died, and was swallowed up and was *never heard again in that age of this world*.



It would seem that the soul of the wraith was swallowed up into some void. His fate seems rather queer, however, he was the captain of the ringwraiths. One might think that his soul perished if it wasn't for the last few words. It definetly sounds like he did not go to the Halls of Mandos, and it is possible he suffered a fate similar to Sauron.

for the fate of Sauron was this


> "...for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it and it was all blown away, and passed; and then a hush fell."



Sound similar?

Now Grond the only thing that makes me feel that the ringwraiths were no longer men, and that their perverted souls suffered a different fate is this quote



> "...the Nazgul came, shooting like flaming bolts as caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they *crackled, withered, and went out.*



Make of it what you will.


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## HLGStrider (Oct 11, 2002)

I kind of always assumed that by binding themselves to the rings they unmade themselves with them...


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## Walter (Oct 11, 2002)

There has been a lengthy thread with quite a few good posts on the topic of "Who killed the Witch-king?" a while ago.

IMO killing the Lord of the Nazgûl was a joint effort. Éowyn's deadly blow wouldn't have been possible without Merry's act of heroism. If not for Merry she would have ended differently:



> '...Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye.'


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## Confusticated (Oct 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Cian _
> *Tolkien wrote that by Éowyn's hand the Witch-king of Angmar was destroyed (in a longer version of The Tale of Years that he desired for publication).*


Well I was wrong all along.


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