# What if Lúthien had been "ugly"?



## Maedhros (Aug 10, 2002)

In the Silmarillion we have:


> It is told in the Lay of Leithian that Beren came stumbling into Doriath grey and bowed as with many years of woe, so great had been the torment of the road. But wandering in the summer in the woods of Neldoreth he came upon Lúthien, daughter of Thingol and Melian, at a time of evening under moonrise, as she danced upon the unfading grass in the glades beside Esgalduin. *Then all memory of his pain departed from him, and he fell into an enchantment; for Lúthien was the most beautiful of all the Children of Ilúvatar. Blue was her raiment as the unclouded heaven, but her eyes were grey as the starlit evening; her mantle was sewn with golden flowers, but her hair was dark as the shadows of twilight.* As the light upon the leaves of trees, as the voice of clear waters, as the stars above the mists of the world, such was her glory and her loveliness; and in her face was a shining light.


I know that elf are supossed to be beautiful and stuff but just for a moment think that if Lúthien weren't as beautiful as she was or even "ugly", would Beren had been enchanted by her? Was his love for her because of her unsurpassing beauty? Or was it something beyond that?


> Then the spell of silence fell from Beren, and he called to her, crying Tinúviel; and the woods echoed the name. Then she halted in wonder, and fled no more, and Beren came to her. * But as she looked on him, doom fell upon her, and she loved him; yet she slipped from his arms and vanished from his sight even as the day was breaking. *


She loved him from the start, I wonder would he have loved her if she was "ugly"?


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## Gil-Galad (Aug 10, 2002)

No.No.No.
I don't like Luthien.I think that if Luthien wasn't the most beautiful creature in Arda,Tolkien wouldn't write anything about her.I mean that her beauty,her spiritual strenght.etc........ are part of the Tolkien's idea for perfect creature.For a love which changed the history of whole world.So it's impossible Luthien to be ugly,but if she was Beren wouldn't fall in love from a fist sight.


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## Confusticated (Aug 10, 2002)

Beren was a man....heck no he wouldn't have been in love with her if she were ugly. I know her voice was important too...does "ugly" include an ugly voice? if so..no human would ever have loved her like Beren did.


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## Gil-Galad (Aug 10, 2002)

Hey,if Beren was ugly too he would love Luthien!Too uglly persons will fall in love!


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## Confusticated (Aug 10, 2002)

That could have happend, but would they even have met? Would he have liked an ugly Elf upon first sight enough to try to get to know her?


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## Gil-Galad (Aug 10, 2002)

Yeah,why not?The ugly elf would want to be with the "ugly" Luthien,and "ugly"Beren wouldn't allow this.Aren't there too many "ugly"-s?


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## Rangerdave (Aug 11, 2002)

True beauty is behind the eyes and between the ears.

RD


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## Confusticated (Aug 11, 2002)

So some people say Rangerdave.

But tell me, how often have you witnessed in life or fiction a brave and good man fall crazily in love with a visually unattractive woman?


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## Gil-Galad (Aug 17, 2002)

Not veru often Confusticated.But it depends on everybody's point of view.There's difference between people's definition of "unattractive"


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## Confusticated (Aug 17, 2002)

That is true, but I believe only to an extent.
For example, lets say you get 100 women and 20 men, and poll those men to see which women are the most atractive...I'll bet that 18 out of 20 of those men's top 5 picks are in the top 20 women...I could be overly cynical though...


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## Gil-Galad (Aug 17, 2002)

Yes Confusticated,you could!


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## Legolas_lover12 (Aug 25, 2002)

but he probably isn't. at least, with my experiences he isn't................


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## Gil-Galad (Aug 31, 2002)

don't be so sure........


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## Lhunithiliel (Sep 9, 2002)

As a newcommer to the forum I haven't had spotted this thread so far!
But it gives me the opportunity to ask for some opinions about a question I have often had.
I'll start with a quote:


> ...Beren came stumbling into Doriath grey and bowed as with many years of woe, so great had been the torment of the road.


As I understand, at the time Beren met Luthien, he looked as an old, weary, bowed man. Then HOW could the most beautiful she-elf ever fall in love with him? 
When I'm reading this extract in the book and further the whole story, I always wonder - how did Beren actually look like? For he was a human. Humans DON'T recover miraculously as the Elves. So, if he was already old and grey and bowed, I can't expect him to become young, strong and handsome again! 
So, what was that spell over Luthien to make HER fall in love with HIM?
Can anybody comment?


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## Confusticated (Sep 9, 2002)

I can't give you anything from the books because I don't recall having read any explainations for this. As humans we can not understand what it is like to be an Elf, or fully know the nature of them, or so from what I've read so far. To compare her with a human woman though, I can say that this is no puzzle to me that a young beautiful female could be in love with such a man. His love for her at first sight couldn't have hindered this either. What if you met a man and he looked at you like you were the more beautiful than anything he had ever seen? I'm not saying you'd fall in love, but it might soften you a little.

But as you said, there could have been more to it.


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## Anira the Elf (Sep 10, 2002)

i fully agree wit hrangerdave. i have gone out with some "ugly" guys ( as my friends say they were) and it's really whats inside that counts. heck all of the "uglies" u know could be married, settled, down or going steady even before you would even have 1/2 a mide to do so your self.

i don't like it when guys can't look past your outer beauty and into your inner beauty. *all of the sudden Anira gets that ' i have an idea look on her face' *
i know u guy would have probably never seen this movie but the quotes good enough.

Derek: Yes i would. Your so beautifull.
Odette: IS that all
Derek: what else is there.

.......later........

Dereks friend: she asked you what else and u said "what else is there". u could write a book called How To Insult A Woman In 5 Words or less"


learn from it ppl!!!


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## Gil-Galad (Sep 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Lhunithiliel _
> *So, what was that spell over Luthien to make HER fall in love with HIM?
> Can anybody comment?  *


Lhu,I really don't know.I suggest that Tolkien wanted to show the spiritual connection between them.Luthien loved his soul,mind, his spiritual part,I think.There's another suggestion and it's only one word-"fate".
The last one and for most probable is:
Often,in the life,the beautiful girls make mistakes,they like the ugliest boys without any reason.I suppose that Luthien did the same mistake!.


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## Legolas_lover12 (Sep 14, 2002)

> often, in the life, the beautiful girls make mistakes, they like the ugliest boys without any reason. i suppose that Luthien made the same mistake




i certainly hope you were joking. how a guy looks isn't the only thing that matters ...


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## Confusticated (Sep 16, 2002)

The meeting of Thingol and Melian tops Beren and Luthien's meeting.



> and it chanced on a time that he came alone to the starlit wood of Nan Elmoth, and there suddenly he heard the song of nightingales. Then an enchantment fell on him, and he stood still, and afar off beyond the voices of the lómelindi he heard the voice of Melian, and it filled all his heart with wonder and desire. He forgot then utterly all his people and all the purposes of his mind, and following the birds under the shadow of the trees he passed deep into Nan Elmoth and was lost. But he came at last to a glade open to the stars, and there Melian stood; and out of the darkness he looked at her, and the light of Aman was in her face.
> She spoke no word; but being filled with love Elwë came to her and took her hand, and straightway a spell was laid on him, so that they stood thus while long years were measured by the wheeling stars above them; and the trees of Nan Elmoth grew tall and dark before they spoke any word.
> Thus Elwë's folk who sought him found him not, and Olwë took the kingship of the Teleri and departed, as is told hereafter. Elwë Singollo came never again across the sea to Valinor so long as he lived, and Melian returned not thither while their realm together lasted; but of her there came among both Elves and Men a strain of the Ainur who were with Ilúvatar before Eä. In after days he became a king renowned, and his people were al the Eldar of Beleriand; the Sindar they were named, the Grey-elves, the Elves of the Twilight, and King Greymantle was he, Elu Thingol in the tongue of that land. And Melian was his Queen, wiser than any child of Middle-earth; and their hidden halls were in Menegroth, the Thousand Caves, in Doriath. Great power Melian lent to Thingol, who was himself great among the Eldar; for he alone of all the Sindar had seen with his own eyes the Trees in the day of their flowering, and king though he was of Ûmanyar, he was not accounted among the Moriquendi, but with the Elves of the Light, mighty upon Middle-earth. And of the love of Thingol and Melian there came into the world the fairest of all the Children of Ilúvatar that was or shall ever be.


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## Gil-Galad (Sep 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Legolas_lover12 _
> *
> 
> 
> i certainly hope you were joking. how a guy looks isn't the only thing that matters ... *


Well....sometimes...or I would say very often that's true and I wasn't joking when I said that.


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## Legolas_lover12 (Sep 20, 2002)




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## Gil-Galad (Sep 20, 2002)

Legolas_lover12,although it's true,I know that you're not from that group.


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## Legolas_lover12 (Sep 20, 2002)

repeating urself aren't we.

...

repeating urself aren't we.


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## Gil-Galad (Sep 20, 2002)

aha......but tell something more interesting to do in 05:33a.m?


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## Legolas_lover12 (Sep 20, 2002)

WoW. it's only 9:47 pm here!!!!!


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## Khamul (Sep 21, 2002)

Personally I feel that Morgoth would have ignored her if she had been ugly. He was more interested in having a 'thrall' than in her personality. He was enchanted by her dancing, and without her, Beren would never have come close to succeeding. (Being a Half-Valar can help in some hard spots.)

But, they were bound by a one fate to be together, to unite the two races, to show to both Elves and Men of what they can achieve together. Instead of taking heed, they continued to kill, and Feanor's sons did not take back the oath.

Edit: Forgot to add this little bit:



> Again she fled, but swift he came.
> Tinuviel! Tinuviel!
> *He called her by her elvish name;
> And there she halted listening.
> ...


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## Gil-Galad (Sep 28, 2002)

Sting,you're right.she was really hot as I said.Morgoth thought some very very bad things when he saw her,because of her beauty.


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## Naurwen (Sep 30, 2002)

*What if Luthien had been "ugly"*

It's like a fairy tale all the good people are hansome and beautiful so it's just tipicall that theres something like that on it.


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## LúthienTinúviel (Sep 30, 2002)

No doubt that her beauty was an asset, but to attribute all Lúthien's power to that outer beauty is both shallow and sexist. Tolkien would not have wanted "Lúthien" carved into his wife's gravestone if beauty was all Lúthien had going for her.


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## Legolas_lover12 (Oct 1, 2002)

he had "luthien carved on his wife's gravestone???


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## LúthienTinúviel (Oct 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Legolas_lover12 _
> *he had "luthien carved on his wife's gravestone??? *



Yes indeed he did.

Grave Picture


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## Legolas_lover12 (Oct 2, 2002)

awwwwwwww. that is SO sweet.


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## Elenaelin (Oct 4, 2002)

I personally belive that the general storyline would not have been changed if Luthien had been ugly. Beren *still* would have fallen in love with her bcc. he was attracted by her song, hence him crying "Tinuviel, Tinuviel" (nightengale) as vs. to "Hey hot stuff!" when first sighting her under starlight. Her power and beauty is in her song. More proof of this exists in the fact that she used her song to A.) charm Morgoth in to sleeping to steal a silmaril; and B.) she so enchanted Mandos that he let Luthien and Beren leave his halls and return to Ossiriand in Middle Earth. The thing that makes me wonder- What if Luthien lost her voice when singing Morgoth to sleep?


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by LúthienTinúviel _
> *No doubt that her beauty was an asset, but to attribute all Lúthien's power to that outer beauty is both shallow and sexist. Tolkien would not have wanted "Lúthien" carved into his wife's gravestone if beauty was all Lúthien had going for her. *


Heheh....I confessed you're the most beautiful creature in ME.But isn't it enough?Now you want to be the creature with best features in ME!!!WOW that's too much I think.


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