# The Role of Faramir's Dream



## simbelmyne (Oct 25, 2003)

While re-reading LOTR once again, Boromir's explanation for his presence at the council of Elrond really bothered me. Faramir had the prophetic dream many times...Boromir once. Did he in fact have the dream at all? Boromir seems honest enough, but I can't say I believe him.

Faramir's dream was "sent" to him (by a power greater than himself, whatever it may be)...was he the one "chosen" to be part of the company? If so, did Boromir alter fate by insisting on taking his place, or was this the greater plan in the first place? If he was not the one chosen, why did Faramir have the dream so often?

We can guess what would have happened to Frodo if he had met Boromir in Ithilien, but would he have been in that position in the first place? Faramir would not have attempted to take the ring, which was the action that pushed Frodo into breaking the fellowship. Would the fellowship have been broken without Boromir? A captain of Gondor says Faramir's life is charmed for some reason, which I always assumed was Eowyn...if he had become one of the nine, he probably would have been killed the same as his brother. Was his life only charmed because Boromir insisted on protecting him?


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## HLGStrider (Oct 25, 2003)

Interesting. . .first of all, was it to protect Faramir that Boromir went? I doubt it because, as the eldest, Denethor would've been more inclined to protect him. He was the heir.

Obviously, it would've been a lot different with Faramir in the hot seat, so to speak. He would've been awed by Aragorn. He probably would've died, however.

It could possibly have gone the same way. Frodo might've gone off to think alone and been wandering around when the attack came. He might've decided to go off alone even without the Boromir stimulus. We don't know. He knew he had to go. He wanted to go alone to protect his friends but he was afraid to do it.

Perhaps seeing the Orc's coming, Faramir and Aragorn would've done battle while the others ran with the Ring Bearer, causing both those two to be slain (or perhaps it would've been Gimli and Aragorn or Faramir and Legolas. ..etc).

I think the dream came to Faramir because he was more sensitive. It came to both brothers because they were the heirs to the steward. I think they were being called to find their king. Boromir didn't wish for a king. It could be argued that Faramir did. No matter what, he was more sensitive to the wakening of things.


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## Snaga (Oct 26, 2003)

The dream is a bit strange all round, because when you think about it, why would there need to be a man of Gondor in the Fellowship at all? Boromir's presence did a lot of damage to the cause and no good that couldnt have been achieved by anyone else of similar stature.

Theory #1: A man of Gondor was needed to meet and accept their new king. But that didnt really happen, and since Boromir never returned, Aragorns claim was accepted anyway so it wasnt needed.

Theory #2: Boromir was needed to break the Fellowship: ie this was a means for fate to work in favour of good. But then why send the dream to Faramir so many times first? And does Eru really 'set people up' like this?

Theory #3: It was just a device by the author to get big bad Boromir into the Fellowship, that wasnt fully thought through?


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## simbelmyne (Oct 26, 2003)

Boromir CLAIMS he insisted on coming because it was too dangerous for little Faramir (again, do we believe him?). Still, I think Boromir's presence was very valuable (minus the small detail of the ring). I can't imagine an elf bulldozing a trail through snow. Maybe Eru wanted one of the mightiest warriors in Gondor representin' - whomever answered the call was good enough. And because Faramir was the most intuitive, he had the dream repeatedly.

But still, why make such a point of how many times F had the dream (many) v. B (JUST once), especially including Denethor's role? T can't be often accused of not thinking things through, although over the course of a decade I SUPPOSE a few things fell between the cracks...


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## Snaga (Oct 27, 2003)

I don't remember Boromir saying it was too dangerous for Faramir. Just that as he was the eldest, it was his duty and his right.


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## simbelmyne (Oct 27, 2003)

Boromir says "My brother...was eager to heed the dream and seek for Imladris; but since the way was full of doubt and danger, I took the journey upon myself. Loth was my father to give me leave..."

Which seems like Boromir pushed his way into the situation against everyone's else's wishes....did he do it out of love for Faramir or duty or both?


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## Inderjit S (Oct 27, 2003)

> When Boromir made his great journey from Gondor to Rivendell-the courage and hardihood required is not fully recognised in this narrative.


 _Of Galadriel and Celeborn; U.T_ 

I don't think Boromir would have allowed for the 'weaker' (In his and everyone else's eyes) Faramir to undertake such a perilous journey.


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## Ravenna (Oct 28, 2003)

It always struck me that Boromir insisted on travelling to rivendell, partly because, in his arrogance he felt that nobody else could do the job as well as him, and partly because if there was honour and glory to be one, he wanted it all for himself. He wanted to be the one to get the answer to the puzzle and possibly to be the hero who brought aid to gondor in her darkest hour.
I suspect that tolkien also wanted to include at least one other Man in the Fellowship. After all the Elves were to act primarily as advisors in the matter, (Legolas excepted) His prescence also demonstrates the weakness in men, and as the tale unfolds, gives the reader more proof, if more is really needed, of just WHY the Ring must be destroyed.


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## Inderjit S (Oct 29, 2003)

But I think it would have been natural for Gondor to send the hardiest person on a quest of importance and many regarded Boromir as the hardiest, so it would make sense for him to go.


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## HLGStrider (Oct 29, 2003)

I see how it probably went:

Faramir and Boromir are standing before their father in the royal gardens.

Faramir: I must harken unto Ismaraldis! For I hath seen a vision whilst I slept and in my vision. . .
Boromir: Dad, do you here this? He's speaking in tongue!
Faramir: Pardon me, dear brother, but thou art interupting my speech.
Denthor: What are we talking about again?
Faramir: In my vision. ..
Boromir: Dad, I had a dream. It said to go to Rivendell and there I would find something that would help us kick butt.
Faramir: Really, Boromir, I had the same dream, though perhaps less roughly stated, and I had it three times.
Boromir: Yeah, but I'm bigger than you.
Denethor: Boys, no fighting. . .
Faramir: Excuse me while I go rescue a kitten from a tree. ..



Which would you have sent?


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## arisen pheonix (Dec 19, 2003)

ok small question....if boromir had stayed behind what would his reaction have been to denathors madness.....i believe he was more attached to his father that faramir was.....besides it is knowledge of boromir that gets pippin in with denathor no?.....besides have any of you had a younger sybling that did something even somewhat note worthy you would know that youd never hear the end of it and i think boromir was avoiding that as much as anything....


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## grendel (Dec 19, 2003)

for my two cents.... remember when this was written, and also the sort of medieval feel to the whole society. It didn't matter who found something out or had a thought or dream... the eldest son was the one who took care of business. Nothing mysterious, that's just the way it was.


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## HLGStrider (Dec 19, 2003)

It's possible with one son still alive (I'm assuming Boromir wouldn't have gotten the black death), Denethor wouldn't have gone mad altogether. More likely, with the stubborn Boromir at his side, he would've just been more resistant to Aragorn coming, and probably have started a faction against the King.


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## Freawine (Dec 21, 2003)

I believe Grendel is on to something: the eldest son would have taken the quest, even is the youngest was the one that got the dream more times. Plus, at one point Elrond says that those present at the Council were not there by chance:



> Called, I say, though I have not called you to me, strangers from distant lands. You have come and are here met, in this very nick of time, by chance as it may seem. Yet it is not so. Believe rather that it is so ordered that we, who sit here, and none others, must now find counsel for the peril of the world.



This may also indicate that Boromir's presence was a matter of Providence which, considering the plot ramifications his actions created (or helped creating), is not surprising: the breaking of the fellowship, the fact that it is Faramir and not Boromir who finds the hobbits in Ithilien, Pippin's oathing to Denethor. What would have happened if the hobbits had been held captive by men of Gondor under Boromir's leadership? Would have him accepted Aragorn as king? Faced Denethor over the Ring?


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## Úlairi (Dec 21, 2003)

I always believed the answer obvious from the very start. It was the purpose of the One.



> _The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring: The Council of Elrond_
> *"At this the stranger, Boromir, broke in. 'So that is what became of the Ring!' he cried. 'If ever such a tale was told in the South, it has long been forgotten. I have heard of the Great Ring of him that we do not name; but we believed that it perished from the ruin of his first realm. Isildur took it! That is tidings indeed!'"*



Now, one would certainly argue that Boromir had no idea that the Council was being held for the purpose of the Ring alone, he even thought that the Ring had perished. But perhaps he doesn't let on as much as he really knows. We know that Gandalf learnt Isildur's version of his finding of the Ring in no place other than Gondor, he found is amongst the 'hoarded scrolls'. Both Boromir and Denethor had access to such records. Who knows? Perhaps the One, perceiving, knew that there would be a company if it was to go to Mordor, and its only chance may be to corrupt one of its members. Who other than Boromir. Perhaps I am giving the One a little too much credit though.


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## Ravenna (Dec 21, 2003)

Perhaps it comes down simply to the fact that Boromir was simply 'fated to be the one to take the quest and become one of the Fellowship.
Many of the members are said to be 'meant' to do something or other, Frodo, Aragorn, even Merry and Pippin to a certain extent. 
If Faramir had taken the journey, as others have said, events would almost certainly have unfolded very differently, with very probably disastrous results.
Tolkien seems to put a lot of emphasis on this aspect, I'm sure I've seen somewhere a thread concerning fate versus free choice but can't find it at present.


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## Úlairi (Dec 21, 2003)

Yeah, about that. I was going to write an essay on predestination in _The Lord of the Rings_ as the tool of the Valar. Too much seems to occur by 'fate', and despite the might of Sauron, he was 'fated' to lose. If that was already predestined, then what was the point of letting him run free around ME for an age and a bit??? Ah well, like I said, I'm making a big thread about it. Look out for it!


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## Lady_of_Gondor (Dec 25, 2003)

Back on the topic at hand... I think that the reason that Boromir was sent rather than Faramir is quite obvious. Being the firstborn son of Denethor, and thus, the heir to the Stewardship, Boromir was Denethor's favorite. Perhaps that would lead us to believe that, as such, Denethor would want to protect him. However, what Denethor truly valued was victory in Battle. He deemed Boromir to be the stronger son, and if he died in battle, then it would be valiant and he would be able to cope. Also, I always thought that battle was the whole purpose of sending Boromir to the council to begin with. When he finds out about the ring, he wants to bring it back to Gondor to help them fight off their enemies. He doesn't understand the quest from the get-go. He thinks that the ring is something useful, and doesn't understand why it needs to be destroyed. This explains why he was sent by Denethor, rather than Faramir, and also sets the plot up for the subsequent breaking of the Fellowship.


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## Úlairi (Dec 26, 2003)

Lady_of_Gondor said:


> Back on the topic at hand... I think that the reason that Boromir was sent rather than Faramir is quite obvious. Being the firstborn son of Denethor, and thus, the heir to the Stewardship, Boromir was Denethor's favorite. Perhaps that would lead us to believe that, as such, Denethor would want to protect him. However, what Denethor truly valued was victory in Battle. He deemed Boromir to be the stronger son, and if he died in battle, then it would be valiant and he would be able to cope. Also, I always thought that battle was the whole purpose of sending Boromir to the council to begin with. When he finds out about the ring, he wants to bring it back to Gondor to help them fight off their enemies. He doesn't understand the quest from the get-go. He thinks that the ring is something useful, and doesn't understand why it needs to be destroyed. This explains why he was sent by Denethor, rather than Faramir, and also sets the plot up for the subsequent breaking of the Fellowship.



Then I guess the dream really had nothing to do with it after all! What a relief!


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## Inderjit S (Dec 26, 2003)

> I think that the reason that Boromir was sent rather than Faramir is quite obvious. Being the firstborn son of Denethor, and thus, the heir to the Stewardship, Boromir was Denethor's favorite. Perhaps that would lead us to believe that, as such, Denethor would want to protect him. However, what Denethor truly valued was victory in Battle. He deemed Boromir to be the stronger son, and if he died in battle, then it would be valiant and he would be able to cope. Also, I always thought that battle was the whole purpose of sending Boromir to the council to begin with. When he finds out about the ring, he wants to bring it back to Gondor to help them fight off their enemies.



Note that Boromir was sent to Elrond by Denethor to seek council. He tells Elrond himself that they didn't expect military aid from Rivendell. 

Denethor disliked Faramir for several reasons. Faramir was everything Denethor wasn't, but what Denethor should have been. Gandalf tells Pippin that he loved Boromir more because he wasn't like his father. Denethor tells Faramir that there is a time and a place for being noble and kind, and that the present situation meant that such behaviour wasn't acceptable. Denethor was burdened with the rise of Sauron (though Sauron declared himself during the time of his grand-father, Turgon) and the probable fall of Gondor. His father (Ecthelion) was a wise and benevolent ruler. Perhaps Denethor disliked his father's attitude and decided to act in a totally different way to his father. We don't know. He was said to be a lot like Aragorn (Thorongil) but was said to be envious of the power and respect that the stranger who arrived from Rohan (But was not one of the Rohhirm) had established, whereas he, the son of Ecthelion had to play second fiddle to this strange. So it is possible that Denethor came to the Stewardship with an inherent bitterness, due to him being (possibly) the last Steward of Gondor, and because of the respect and awe that Thorongil won from his people. Thorongil and Denethor were said to be very similar. They often agreed on matters of war etc. though they disagreed on Gandalf. Thorongil tells Echtelion that he must put his trust into Gandalf, whereas Denethor leaned towards Saruman. 

Both were lordly, and wise, and both were the 'last Númenóreans' yet their fates were at a variance though their characters were one and the same. Why? Denethor was proud, but so too was Aragorn, but Aragorn’s pride was stemmed by his nobility, wisdom and compassion. He is reluctant to compare himself to Isildur and Anárion yet he was the greatest descendant of Elendil along with Elendur. He is able to act like a man of Bree, or even a Hobbit (his speech to Merry about Merry’s ’lost’ pack) and he has travelled around the world (He tells the Council he has been to Rhûn and Harad) and was a pupil of Gandalf. Denethor on the other hand was “no Wizard’s pupil” (like Boromir) he had inherited a realm that faced a threat that Denethor and his allies could never conquer. The death of Finduilas simply perpetuated his grimness. After that he seems to have entered a state of quasi-depression and he began to suffer from paranoid allusions as to the threat of Mordor and looked into the Palantír to see what was going on in his realm.

Pippin notes the similarities between Gandalf and Denethor, he wonders which one is older, he also notes the similarity between Gandalf and Aragorn. Denethor in one of his more humble moments tells Gandalf not to be angry at his foolishness-this to me is a brief glimpse of Denethor’s intrinsic nobility and wisdom. Denethor was respected, but not in the same way as his son, father and Aragorn were. They were respected for their humanity, their strength and their lordliness. Denethor expected and commanded respect, Aragorn and Faramir didn’t-their positive characteristics meant that they earned the respect and admiration of the people. 

At the end of the T.A, military prowess was valued over wisdom. Denethor states so, as does Beregond. Éomer and Théoden and distraught when they hear of Boromir's end, "he was a worthy man"-would Faramir command such respect and admiration? He was a good a soldier as his brother. His men in Ithilien love and respect him. They think he has a “charmed life” and when he is with them he inspires confidence. Beregond and Éowyn both note his staggering military capabilities-yet he is a man of peace, he doesn’t slay anything gladly, (Gandalf echoes a similar sentiment, he pities even Sauron’s servants) he is a brilliant judge of characters (like his father) and is well-esteemed and loved for his wisdom-rather then his military capabilities, which were second to none. Beregond expresses his annoyance when he tells Pippin that the people of Gondor thought that Faramir was soft, and that kindness cannot equate with steadfastness in battle, Sam makes a similar mistake when judging Frodo’s character, thinking him too kind ,and at times his kindness cloud his wisdom. 

Denethor felt he was rejected by Faramir when he was re-calling he meeting with Sam and Frodo. He continually glances at Gandalf to check if he wasn’t giving away too much, Faramir’s attitude may have seemed (to Denethor) to be a rejection of Denethor himself in the favour of Gandalf, maybe he felt the same way about Ecthelion’s esteem for Thorongil-both times he had been passed over, by his close kin for two strangers. This would have annoyed Denethor. Defying his fathers orders to bring any foreigners who were in Gondor to him, and worst of all-letting the ring out of his grasp! Folly! And for what? A wizard? A Hobbit? To keep his nobility? Bah! There is a war going on-there is a time and a place to be noble, and this isn’t the time. Faramir may have just let the one thing that could save Gondor out of Denethor’s grasp into the hands of Sauron!

In the end, Denethor realised that military victory was not possible. But he did not have the inherent hope or estel of Faramir, Gandalf, Aragorn or the others. He didn’t believe (like Boromir) that the Ring would be destroyed by Frodo. And when he sees the military might of Sauron, he crumbles. His problem was that he only saw victory through military means-when his defeat was inevitable he lost all hope. Beren and Lúthien didn’t need scores of armies to take on Morgoth, Sam and Frodo didn’t need a million Oliphaunts to take on Sauron-all they needed was each other and their love. Maybe, in the end, that was what Denethor couldn’t see. Loves always prevails-and maybe that is why Denethor is so tragic, because of his blindness. He may have slept in his armour, but how many times did he tell Faramir that he loves him?



> I dislike the use of 'political' in such a context; it seems to me false. It seems clear to me that Frodo's duty was 'humane' not political. He naturally thought first of the Shire, since his roots were there, but the quest had as its object not the preserving of this or that polity, such as the half republic half aristocracy of the Shire, but the liberation from an evil tyranny of all the 'humane'# – including those, such as 'easterlings' and Haradrim, that were still servants of the tyranny.
> despised lesser men, and one may be sure did not distinguish between orcs and the allies of Mordor. If he had survived as victor, even without use of the Ring, he would have taken a long stride towards becoming himself a tyrant, and the terms and treatment he accorded to the deluded peoples of east and south would have been cruel and vengeful. He had become a 'political' leader: sc. Gondor against the rest.
> But that was not the policy or duty set out by the Council of Elrond. Only after hearing the debate and realizing the nature of the quest did Frodo accept the burden of his mission. Indeed the Elves destroyed their own polity in pursuit of a 'humane' duty


_Letters of Tolkien; 183_ 



> I think you misunderstand Faramir. He was daunted by his father: not only in the ordinary way of a family with a stern proud father of great force of character, but as a Númenórean before the chief of the one surviving Númenórean state. He was motherless and sisterless (Eowyn was also motherless), and had a 'bossy' brother. He had been accustomed to giving way and not giving his own opinions air, while retaining a power of command among men, such as a man may obtain who is evidently personally courageous and decisive, but also modest, fair-minded and scrupulously just, and very merciful. I think he understood Eowyn very well.


 _Letter 244; Letters of Tolkien_


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## simbelmyne (Dec 26, 2003)

Hey! Thanks for bringing this thread back to life!  

I also think Denethor dislikes Faramir because F is probably a lot more like his dearly departed wife (if I had been her I probably would have expired too) than Denethor, and he does not want to be reminded. Not to mention Faramir is smarter than Denethor, which had to give him an eye twitch.


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## HLGStrider (Dec 26, 2003)

Another thing that really should be brought to mind: Denethor simply did not see Faramir as being as loyal as Boromir. 

Faramir spent time with Gandalf, who Denethor disliked. Faramir wasn't loyal to the house of Stewards in that he would see a king on the throne again. He probably openly longed for the days of the kings where as Boromir openly longed for his father to be a king. Which stance is more flattering?

Boromir was loyal to what his father wished him to be loyal to, honor asside. 

Faramir would put honor above his father's wishes (we see that in his treatment of Frodo). 

Any man who loves power and is naturally untrusting is going to send the boy he feels has the greatest fielity to him. . .dream or no dream.



Oh, and by the way, Sim. I spent about two minutes staring at your post thinking "I don't remember posting that" because our avatars are so similar.

Mine's a flower called "The Star of Bethlehem" according to the label on Google, however, and yours is, I'm assuming, what your name is.


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## Úlairi (Dec 27, 2003)

Inder started off quite well in saying that Boromir certainly wasn't looking for military aid when he attended the Council of Elrond.



> _The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring: Book II: Chapter II: The Council of Elrond_
> *"'In this evil hour I have come on an errand over many dangerous leagues to Elrond: a hundred and ten days I have journeyed all alone. But I do not seek allies in war. The might of Elrond is in wisdom not in weapons, it is said.'"*



Boromir was there for the sole reason of an interpretation of the dream from the Wise. 



> _The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King: Chapter I: Minas Tirith_
> *"'Yet a Halfling still,' said Denethor grimly, 'and little love do I bear the name, since those accursed words came to trouble our counsels and drew away my son on the wild errand to his death. My Boromir! Now we have need of you. Faramir should have gone in his stead.'"*



I personally believe that this quote says it all. Denethor was troubled by the dreams that Faramir and Boromir were experiencing, he could not interpret them, as he didn't know of the full tale of the Ring. It is also obvious that Boromir offered to go.



> *"...drew away my son..."*



I do not believe that Boromir had any intentions of his own, and would have claimed greater strength than that of his brother, which would be his excuse for being the one to be sent on the errand. Denethor may have been completely against it in the beginning, as the road to Imladris was very dangerous in those times. I originally said that the Ring may have perceived something, and obviously must have great foresight, foresight to challenge that of Elrond! This may be an explanation, but the simplest answer is always best. That is also obviously that Boromir was afraid of this dream, 'an omen' as Gandalf had called, or he would not have dared to go on the errand himself, and alone! To stress the point even more Tolkien wrote more on the journey of Boromir to Imladris in _Unfinished Tales_.



> _Unfinished Tales: The History of Galadriel and Celeborn_
> *"When Boromir made his great journey from Gondor to Rivendell - the courage and hardihood required is not fully recognized in the narrative - the North-South Road no longer existed except for the crumbling remains of the causeways, by which a hazardous approach to Tharbad might be achieved, only to find ruins on dwindling mounds, and a dangerous ford formed by the ruins of the bridge, impassable if the river had not been there slow and shallow - but wide."*



To sum it all up, Boromir was there fundamentally because he was a patriot, and unfortunately this was to his own undoing. His father probably disagreed with the affair from the get-go, but Boromir persisted. As Inder pointed out, Faramir wasn't inclined to give his opinion on any matter that concerned his father, although it was likely that he had one in this matter. If we were to argue that Boromir was drawn to the power of the Ring, then the argument would certainly spark some interesting debate!


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## Barliman Butterbur (Dec 27, 2003)

Úlairi said:


> Yeah, about that. I was going to write an essay on predestination in _The Lord of the Rings_ as the tool of the Valar. Too much seems to occur by 'fate', and despite the might of Sauron, he was 'fated' to lose. If that was already predestined, then what was the point of letting him run free around ME for an age and a bit??? Ah well, like I said, I'm making a big thread about it. Look out for it!



How can you complain about what occured by fate? Nothing occured by fate. Tolkien wrote a story which stands as it is. Of course Sauron was fated to lose, that's the way Tolkien wrote the story. Everything that happens in a story is fated to happen exactly according to the author's intention.

Now if you want to make conjecture: was Tolkien fated to write the story? Ah, that's different. Now we're dealing with people, not stories. Here's a place to bring in the idea of predestination, even karma — and *then* look out for it!

—Lotho


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## Úlairi (Dec 27, 2003)

Lotho_Pimple said:


> How can you complain about what occured by fate? Nothing occured by fate. Tolkien wrote a story which stands as it is. Of course Sauron was fated to lose, that's the way Tolkien wrote the story. Everything that happens in a story is fated to happen exactly according to the author's intention.
> 
> Now if you want to make conjecture: was Tolkien fated to write the story? Ah, that's different. Now we're dealing with people, not stories. Here's a place to bring in the idea of predestination, even karma — and *then* look out for it!
> 
> —Lotho



Yes, well I'm a very fatalistic person by nature, and determinism is rife in the works of Tolkien. An indicator of this is the non-existent nature of the Free Will of the Orks, in which Tolkien himself is a rather harsh critic. Letter #153 to Peter Hastings (which is a draft) describes a little of what Tolkien believed of predestination in mythology. He says that "Free Will is derivative..." and goes on further to say that it is only opertational within provided circumstances. As I said, I am making a thread about it, and the thread is going to be blockbuster. The argument alone will take me a long time to complete, and I haven't started it because I am so daunted by the task of doing so. However, once it is completed I would be very pleased if you joined the debate in the thread. There will be so much to argue. It will be entitled: "Free Will - The Farce of Ilúvatar?" Keep your eyes peeled, I hope it will be my greatest work to date. I am also planning some lectures for GoT where Eriol has graciously invited me to my old guild to present a lecture on 'The Lore of the Rings'. Both these tasks will be arduous, and I do not look forward to them!


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## Inderjit S (Dec 27, 2003)

But in the end it was the choices of the characters that saved M-E. Bilbo and Frodo's pity, Sam's scorn for Gollum when he was pawing Frodo just before their encounter with Shelob. Could the Valar or Eru have effected the character's in such a way? They may have 'set-up' Bilbo to receive the Ring (What if Fili and Kili hadn't have been so impetuous in their search for the cave? What if Thorin refused to take Bilbo on the journey? What if Drogo and Primula didn't go boating on that ill-fated night? What if Gandalf had thrown a Hobbit lingerie party inst....) Well, you get the picture. Sometimes the little decisions, made by the people themselves can over-ride fate, but well...they didn't, they made the 'right' choices (in retrospect) so maybe the choices the characters made were part of fate and ordained by Eru and the Valar? It is a matter of interpretation. Of course such comparisons can be made in our world. What if Hitler had been accepted at the art academy? What if Stalin was killed in one of his bank robberies? I don't know if you can label 'fate' when you are looking back on past events. Things happened as they did because different people's decisions meant they did-were they guided by a ubiquitous, all-powerful being? Who can say? Fate is a parody, and so is human nature, so both are interesting to discuss.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Dec 27, 2003)

Inderjit S said:


> But in the end it was the choices of the characters that saved M-E. Bilbo and Frodo's pity, Sam's scorn for Gollum when he was pawing Frodo just before their encounter with Shelob. Could the Valar or Eru have effected the character's in such a way? They may have 'set-up' Bilbo to receive the Ring (What if ...



Ah yes, what if, what if! Again I say: things turned out the way they did _because that's the way Tolkien chose to write them._The "choices of the characters" is meaningless, because the characters are the puppets of the author, even if the author says (as s/he so often does), "the characters took on a life of their own." Even if that be the case, the author is allowing them to run their course, much as characters in a dream do. Ultimately, all is a mind-product of the author.

Lotho


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## HLGStrider (Dec 27, 2003)

> What if Gandalf had thrown a Hobbit lingerie party inst.


As long as I live I will NEVER understand what goes on inside men's heads. . .

NEVER!



> Sometimes the little decisions, made by the people themselves can over-ride fate


And yet are the decisions fated? (Personally, I don't believe so, so I'm just playing devil's advocate with this one. I believe in actions being foreseen but not caused. . .though sometimes highly influenced.).



> the author says (as s/he so often does), "the characters took on a life of their own."


Just a bit of author apologetics here. You'd be surprised how potent characters with a will of their own can be. You try and bend them and you can ruin a good plot in seconds.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Dec 27, 2003)

HLGStrider said:


> Just a bit of author apologetics here. You'd be surprised how potent characters with a will of their own can be. You try and bend them and you can ruin a good plot in seconds.



Absolutely! That's why the author must provide guidance and structure if he doesn't want things to run away. After all, the characters are aspects of the author, as are all the elements of a dream.

Lotho


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## HLGStrider (Dec 28, 2003)

Well. . .some writers write with a plot beforehand and everything planned out in intrisic details. Some just start writing and make it up as they go. I'm personally in between the two.


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## Úlairi (Dec 28, 2003)

Inderjit S said:


> But in the end it was the choices of the characters that saved M-E. Bilbo and Frodo's pity, Sam's scorn for Gollum when he was pawing Frodo just before their encounter with Shelob. Could the Valar or Eru have effected the character's in such a way? They may have 'set-up' Bilbo to receive the Ring (What if Fili and Kili hadn't have been so impetuous in their search for the cave? What if Thorin refused to take Bilbo on the journey? What if Drogo and Primula didn't go boating on that ill-fated night? What if Gandalf had thrown a Hobbit lingerie party inst....) Well, you get the picture. Sometimes the little decisions, made by the people themselves can over-ride fate, but well...they didn't, they made the 'right' choices (in retrospect) so maybe the choices the characters made were part of fate and ordained by Eru and the Valar? It is a matter of interpretation. Of course such comparisons can be made in our world. What if Hitler had been accepted at the art academy? What if Stalin was killed in one of his bank robberies? I don't know if you can label 'fate' when you are looking back on past events. Things happened as they did because different people's decisions meant they did-were they guided by a ubiquitous, all-powerful being? Who can say? Fate is a parody, and so is human nature, so both are interesting to discuss.



Yes, but if predestination exists, then neither does Free Will. Free Will is the ability to make choices without the existence of divine intervention, which occurs frequently, and not just in the works of Tolkien, so, Bilbo and Frodo's choices were all predestined to occur.  However, let's save this argument for the thread.


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## simbelmyne (Jan 9, 2004)

Lotho_Pimple said:


> things turned out the way they did _because that's the way Tolkien chose to write them._The "choices of the characters" is meaningless, because the characters are the puppets of the author



I guess what gets to me is that Tolkien made such a point of showing there were TWO possibilities. Based on the facts that Faramir had the dream MANY times and was eager to come to Rivendell to unravel it make it seem like 'fate' had chosen him to go. The will of his father overruled this, and his distrust of his younger son made him send his elder. If Denethor had followed what the signs were pointing him to do instead of selfishly forcing his own will, Faramir would have been sent. And we all know the sweetheart who would have been waiting for Frodo and Sam in Ithilien! It seems that if Denethor had chosen the 'right' thing to do, a disasterous result would have occurred. Which just leaves me confused...


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## HLGStrider (Jan 10, 2004)

Though we don't know if they would've met Boromir. For one thing they wouldn't have run off due to Boromir frightening Frodo into a quick decision. It's possible the number with Frodo would've been greater, that they wouldn't have met Gollum, or that one of them with Frodo would've killed him, and they wouldn't have head to Cirith Ungol. They might've tried another route. Faramir definitely wouldn't have chosen Cirith Ungol. I doubt very much any of the others would have either. It was only Gollum who chose this route.


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## Halasían (Jul 5, 2020)

This was an awesome read, and I vaguely remember that Barliman Butterbar went by 'Lotho Pimple' in the early days.

On the subject at hand... Faramir was mama's boy and Boromir was daddy's boy. The ethereal thinker vs the hardy fighter. I suppose the whole brother swap could be an interesting fanfic.

(My dumpster-dive of the day)


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jul 5, 2020)

Another cadaver crawls from the grave.

I thought about posting, but


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## Olorgando (Jul 5, 2020)

Halasían said:


> On the subject at hand... Faramir was mama's boy and Boromir was daddy's boy. The ethereal thinker vs the hardy fighter. I suppose the whole brother swap could be an interesting fanfic.


In the films, maybe. Not in the books. Boromir never faced any of the Nazgûl, as Faramir did. If anyone of the two brothers was one-dimensional, a charge levelled against book Faramir by moron PJ quoted in another thread, it was certainly "semi-Conan" Boromir (of the book). I would even think that Faramir would have been a wiser and more effective field commander than the bombastic Boromir. And never mind Denethor's totally idiotic insistence on defending the Rammas Echor at Osgiliath. A Hitler lunacy.


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## Halasían (Jul 5, 2020)

Halasían said:


> Faramir was mama's boy and Boromir was daddy's boy.





Olorgando said:


> In the films, maybe. Not in the books.



Even in the books Faramir was more like Finduilas and Boromir was more like Denethor.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jul 5, 2020)

I agree there, Halasian, insofar as his inner character went. His speech to Frodo demonstrates this, I think. OTOH, Gandalf points out that the "blood of Numenor" ran truer in him than it did in his brother -- _and also in his father._

Well, there I go, posting anyway! No disrespect intended about reviving it, but I do find all the dancing around "What if Napoleon had a B52 at Waterloo?" questions pointless, and yes, silly.

Very, very silly.


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## Olorgando (Jul 5, 2020)

Halasían said:


> Even in the books Faramir was more like Finduilas and Boromir was more like Denethor.


Extremely disagree! Faramir was just a *tad* below Boromir in martial prowess, but massively above him in mental prowess. In some ways even above their common dad (I know I'm repeating myself here). Book Faramir a mama's boy - not in the slightest!


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## Halasían (Jul 5, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> Extremely disagree! Book Faramir a mama's boy - not in the slightest!


So are you denigrating Finduilas and elevating Denethor here? Have we read the same book?


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## Olorgando (Jul 5, 2020)

Halasían said:


> So are you denigrating Finduilas and elevating Denethor here? Have we read the same book?


Point 1: Finduilas is for me a name from the First Age, off-the-cuff. Something with Orodreth, Nargothrond, Gwindor, and Turin - Mr. get-things-wrong of the First Age.
Point 2: OK. Short paragraph about Denethor's wife, from Dol Amroth. Died early. Information besides that basically nonexistent. So how do you arrive at any denigration (or elevation) of Denethor?


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## Halasían (Jul 5, 2020)

... nevermind.....


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## Olorgando (Jul 6, 2020)

Information about Denethor's (and Boromir's and Faramir's) Finduilas *is* awfully sketchy.

And the term "mama's boy" or for that matter its German equivalent "Muttersöhnchen" (a diminutive) is rarely used as a compliment, in my experience. 🤨


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## Ealdwyn (Jul 6, 2020)

I'm not sure I believe in the "mama's boy" depiction of Faramir.
This is more character assassination by PJ - of both Faramir and Denethor.

I'll have to check my sources here (my memory's a bit sketchy), but from my understanding Faramir was more like Denethor. 
Denethor pre-LotR was a successful ruler. He is described as wise and far-sighted, he listened to counsel, and seems to have been the strong, silent type. To me, he seems more like Faramir in character than impulsive Boromir.

It's interesting to note Denethor's history. For many years he was second in his father's affections to Aragorn (as Thorongil). If I recall correctly, Ecthelion II loved Thorongil above all, and there was a good deal of rivalry between Thorongil and Denethor. Thorongil was also - like Boromir - a great war leader.
I've often wondered (putting my amateur psychology hat on here) whether Denethor's treatment of Faramir was because he saw the same characteristics in Faramir as he saw in himself, except that he perceived those qualities as weakness because of his rejection by Ecthelion. Denethor's self-loathing for being 2nd place in his father's affections was effectively transferred to Faramir.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jul 6, 2020)

Ealdwyn said:


> but from my understanding Faramir was more like Denethor.


Yes, that's what I meant by the idea that Faramir had a purer strain of Numenorean blood, like his father.


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## Aldarion (Jul 6, 2020)

Ealdwyn said:


> I've often wondered (putting my amateur psychology hat on here) whether Denethor's treatment of Faramir was because he saw the same characteristics in Faramir as he saw in himself, except that he perceived those qualities as weakness because of his rejection by Ecthelion. Denethor's self-loathing for being 2nd place in his father's affections was effectively transferred to Faramir.



That is my interpretation as well. We know that Aragorn is actually a lot like Faramir. But while he was in Gondor, he was a war leader - a very successful war leader, and thus highly popular. So his warlike traits would have been noticed, while rest of him remained hidden - and thus Denethor, who remained in Thorongil's shadow, would have projected this onto Boromir and Faramir, preferring former because of his own experiences.


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## Olorgando (Jul 6, 2020)

Ealdwyn said:


> ...
> I've often wondered (putting my amateur psychology hat on here) whether Denethor's treatment of Faramir was because he saw the same characteristics in Faramir as he saw in himself, except that he perceived those qualities as weakness because of his rejection by Ecthelion. Denethor's self-loathing for being 2nd place in his father's affections was effectively transferred to Faramir.





Aldarion said:


> That is my interpretation as well. We know that Aragorn is actually a lot like Faramir. But while he was in Gondor, he was a war leader - a very successful war leader, and thus highly popular. So his warlike traits would have been noticed, while rest of him remained hidden - and thus Denethor, who remained in Thorongil's shadow, would have projected this onto Boromir and Faramir, preferring former because of his own experiences.


Food for thought, without a doubt!
To put something of a Monty Python twist to it, I could imagine them concocting something like the following dialogue:
"You're a lot like me, Faramir, a lot more than Boromir is - but I hate myself."
I wonder if JRRT might not at least raise an eyebrow at this kind of psychologizing.
The old applicability vs. allegory bit.
But as we are the readers to whom he readily granted the freedom of applicability, he'd probably shrug in the end.


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