# Courses of the Noldor (Feanor)



## baraka (Feb 21, 2002)

What do you think that the Noldor should have done after the death of the King Finwe. What should Feanor and Fingolfin have done? Go after Morgoth or do as the Valar say?


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## Beleg Strongbow (Feb 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by baraka _
> *What do you think that the Noldor should have done after the death of the King Finwe. What should Feanor and Fingolfin have done? Go after Morgoth or do as the Valar say? *



Who knows eh. No one but the people there could tell you what you MIGHT have done. Know one has been through that. But i would have tried to get the vala in on the war 2. With arguments like the trees can come back with the jewels, imagine all the other beings out there getting killed and corrupted and also men. If melkor finds them first they will be raised to hate us and despise us. I would try and get them to fight as well.


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## baraka (Feb 22, 2002)

*Re: Re: Courses of the Noldor (Feanor)*



> _Originally posted by Beleg Strongbow _
> * But i would have tried to get the vala in on the war 2. With arguments like the trees can come back with the jewels, imagine all the other beings out there getting killed and corrupted and also men. If melkor finds them first they will be raised to hate us and despise us. I would try and get them to fight as well. *



But i thought that Manwe was waiting for something. What was the thing that he was waiting?


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## Beleg Strongbow (Feb 24, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Courses of the Noldor (Feanor)*



> _Originally posted by baraka _
> *
> 
> But i thought that Manwe was waiting for something. What was the thing that he was waiting? *



i don't know.


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## Ecthelion. (Feb 26, 2002)

I think Manwe was waiting for the coming of men, but I can't remember.


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## baraka (Feb 26, 2002)

> I think Manwe was waiting for the coming of men, but I can't remember.



Are you saying that if Men had arrived, then Manwe would have chased Morgoth in ME. Hmmm. hmmmm.


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## Ecthelion. (Feb 26, 2002)

I think that Manwe would have directly intervened if Men were around. He probably woulda gotten rid of Morgoth if everyone was there, but he was uninformed. I also think that Eru didn't give Manwe any advice on the subject. He was probably in shock from the whole thing and didn't know really what to do.


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## baraka (Feb 26, 2002)

*Earendil*

Then why did Manwe so long and only acted when Earendil begged him?


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## Ecthelion. (Feb 26, 2002)

Alot can happen in 500 years. Manwe probably saw the Noldor fighting, and decided that they would have to handle it on their own. But when Earendil came, he probably immediately felt compassion for his long-lost Noldorin friends and went to rescue them.


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## baraka (Feb 26, 2002)

> Alot can happen in 500 years. Manwe probably saw the Noldor fighting, and decided that they would have to handle it on their own. But when Earendil came, he probably immediately felt compassion for his long-lost Noldorin friends and went to rescue them.



The fact that the Noldor went to ME despite the fact that they knew that they couldn´t defeat Morgoth shows to me a great deal of courage. I wonder if Melkor had killed Ingwe, if the Vanyar would have gone to avenge his death.


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## Grond (Feb 28, 2002)

baraka, your wish is my command. Here is the text of our PM.

Here's what I think would have happened if Feanor had been sane on that day when Melkor and Ungoliant killed the trees. 
1) I think that had he volunteered to give the Silmarils back (even though they were stolen by Melkor, Feanor did not know this at the time), the Valar would have waged war immediately on Melkor. Finwe's death would have been avenged, the Silmarils would have been recovered and then broken and their light used to heal the Two Trees, thus bringing Valinor back into the "Light of the Trees". 

2) This would have been totally adverse to the "real" story that JRRT was trying to write. All great mythologies are seeped in "tragedy". In the Silmarillion, we are overwhelmed with tragic characters. 
a) Feanor 
b) Hurin 
c) Turin 
d) Maedros 
e) Fingolfin 
f) Fingon 
g) Finrod 
h) Beren and Luthien 
i) Thingol and Melian 
It goes on and on. And you are absolutely right. Without Feanor, there would have been no Silmarillion. I get your point but don't agree that he was a great character. I feel he was a anti-hero and very tragic since he was motivated by our more basic emotions of anger, hatred, jealosy and fear.


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## Camille (Feb 28, 2002)

Yes that right!! I dont like Feanor either he is so proud and selfish, but regarding why Manwe waited so long to help the Noldor I think is because of the doom, you know.. Mandos told them and because of the kinslaying they deserved punishment! also Earendil's doom was to beg for the two kindreds to the Valar.
and if Feanor had done what Grond said we would not have such a beatifull story...


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## baraka (Feb 28, 2002)

> I dont like Feanor either he is so proud and selfish



Of course he is proud and selfish, wouldn´t you be if you were the mightiest of your race and a genius of unparalell creativity.


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## Camille (Feb 28, 2002)

> Of course he is proud and selfish, wouldn´t you be if you were the mightiest of your race and a genius of unparalell creativity


I agree that he is the most skilled elf ever!!! and creative and a genius (be able to got the trees light into a jewel, that was amazing!!) but... when I said that I dont like him because of his pride is because he didnt use all his powers and skill to make any good, save the silmarils!!, I am thinking in a lot of elves that despite their powers didt became as selfish like feanor
Feanor led his kindred to a 500 year (more or less) war were many elves died, he leave his followers at the Helxcare (dont remember the name) well for all that I dont like him despite beaing an elf of unparalell creativity


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## baraka (Feb 28, 2002)

> Feanor led his kindred to a 500 year (more or less) war were many elves died


At least the Noldor formed a sort of shield towards the evil´s doings of Morgoth.



> leave his followers at the Helxcare


That was pretty mean.



> well for all that I dont like him despite beaing an elf of unparalell creativity


Everyone has a different view or opinion of Feanor, which is why i find it fascinating.


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## Camille (Feb 28, 2002)

Hello baraka!!! I have been reading some thread and I have noticed that you have been discusing "the feanor issue" for a while an you are right different opinions and different point of view!!! maybe you see Feanor more like a tragic caracther, I dont see hi loke that, but.. that is ok, mmmm I am guessing that we will have a post from Grond very soon dont you? 
Greetings


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## baraka (Feb 28, 2002)

> maybe you see Feanor more like a tragic caracther



I don´t think that tragic is the word i would use to describe Feanor. I think that he was someone who wanted to be more of what he was. He was always doing new things, exploring new places, etc. He was not your typical elf.

I think that there are elves and there is Feanor. What i truly admire about him is the passion that went into all his works and deeds. (some were hideous) He didn´t do anything lightly!


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## baraka (Feb 28, 2002)

Grond input is always apreciated and insightful!


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## Camille (Feb 28, 2002)

yeah he had a lot of passion!! but he directed all his passion to pride and wrath, not thinking cold, as you see in real life the people who react always in anger do not make wise decisions...


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## baraka (Feb 28, 2002)

> but he directed all his passion to pride and wrath, not thinking cold


Yes, but you have to give him the fact that he never gave up, no matter the odds.


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## Camille (Feb 28, 2002)

ah mmm yes maybe... that is the only thing good about him.. talking about feanor... what happend to his wife did she went to ME? I was wondering in the sil she is mencionated only once


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## baraka (Feb 28, 2002)

> that is the only thing good about him


He made the Tengwar, Silmarils and various gems.



> what happend to his wife did she went to ME? I was wondering in the sil she is mencionated only once


I think that there is a part that mentions that he and his wife became "estranged"


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## Beleg Strongbow (Feb 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Grond _
> *\
> 
> 
> ...


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## Brent (Mar 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by baraka _
> *
> I think that there is a part that mentions that he and his wife became "estranged" *



Yes I'd be interestered to know what happened to her, she acted as a brake on Feanors personality and it says her nature she gave in part to her sons, but not to all, obviously thats Maedhros for a start and, of course,Maglor the bard. 

Wasn't her father an Elven Smith from whom Feanor learned much ?


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## baraka (Mar 1, 2002)

From Chapter 6


> "While still in his early youth he wedded Nerdanel, the daughter of a great smith named Mahtan, among those of the Noldor most dear to Aule; and of Mahtan he learned much of the making of things in metal and in stone. Nerdanel also was firm of will, but more patient than Feanor, desiring to understand minds rather than to master them, and at first she restrained him when the fire of his heart grew too hot; but his later deeds grieved her, and they became estranged."



I suppose that she didn´t went with him to ME.


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## baraka (Mar 1, 2002)

> I feel he was a anti-hero and very tragic since he was motivated by our more basic emotions of anger, hatred, jealosy and fear.



Of who would Feanor be jealous?


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## Camille (Mar 1, 2002)

WoW so we have the first midle earth divorce !!!, and of course their kids suffer their separation and the consecuenses: became very polemic fellows!!


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## Grond (Mar 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by baraka _
> *Of who would Feanor be jealous? *


He was filled with both hatred and jealousy of Melkor for one. He was also so jealous of Fingolfin (because some of the Noldor remained loyal to him), that he abandoned Fingolfin in Valinor.


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## baraka (Mar 1, 2002)

> He was filled with both hatred and jealousy of Melkor for one


With hatred againgst Melkor, yes but can you give me an example of jealousy of Melkor. 



> He was also so jealous of Fingolfin (because some of the Noldor remained loyal to him), that he abandoned Fingolfin in Valinor.



Hmmmm.....,  , I´m not convinced, yet.


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## Grond (Mar 1, 2002)

I Jealousy against Fingolfin
From the Quenta Silmarillion, Of the Silmarils, 
"...But even as Fingolfin spoke, Feanor strode into the chamber, and he was fully armed: his high helm upon his head, and at his side a mighty sword. 'So it is, even as I guessed,' he said. 'My half-brother would be before me with my father, in this as in all other matters.' Then turning on Fingolfin he drew his sword, crying: 'Get thee gone, and take thy due place!' ...'See, half-brother!' he said. 'This is sharper than thy tongue. Try but once more to usurp my place and the love of my father, and maybe it will rid the Noldor of one who seeks ot be the master of thralls.'" err... ummm... I think that would be categorized as jealousy. 

II Jealousy against Melkor
From the Quenta Silmarillion, Of the Flight of the Noldor,
"Then Feanor swore a terrible oath. His seven sons leapt straight-way to his side and took the selfsame vow together, and red as blood shone their drawn swords in the glare of the torches. They swore an oath which none shall break, and none shall take, by the name even of Iluvatar calling the Everlasting dark upon them if they kept it not; and Manwe they named in witness, and Varda, and the hallowed mountain of Taniquetil, vowing to pursue with vengeance and hatred any creature, great or small, good or evil, that time should bring forth unto the end of days, whoso should old or take or keep a Simaril from their possession." err... ummm... I think this one would include vengeance and hatred and, it doesn't say it but I'm sure jealousy is in there... jealousy of Melkor or any other living creature, excepting Feanor and his sons, who might take up a Silmaril.


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## baraka (Mar 1, 2002)

*Jelousy*

Chapter 7 of the Sil 


> High princes were Fëanor and Fingolfin, the elder sons of Finwë, honoured by all in Aman; but now they grew proud and jealous each of his rights and his possessions. Then Melkor set new lies abroad in Eldamar, and whispers came to Fëanor that Fingolfin and his sons were plotting to usurp the leadership of Finwë and of the elder line of Fëanor, and to supplant them by the leave of the Valar; for the Valar were ill-pleased that the Silmarils lay in Tirion and were not committed to their keeping. But to Fingolfin and Finarfin it was said: 'Beware! Small love has the proud son of Míriel ever had for the children of Indis. Now he has become great, and he has his father in his hand. It will not be long before he drives you forth from Túna!'



In this passage, there is jealousy between the both half brothers. 


> 'See, half-brother!' he said. 'This is sharper than thy tongue. Try but once more to usurp my place and the love of my father, and maybe it will rid the Noldor of one who seeks to be the master of thralls.'


I think this also could be interpreted as jealousy, but is because of the love of Fëanor to his Father, rather than jealousy.

In Chapter 9 of the Sil 


> Then Fëanor rose, and lifting up his hand before Manwë he cursed Melkor, naming him Morgoth, the Black Foe of the World; and by that name only was he known to the Eldar ever after. And he cursed also the summons of Manwë and the hour in which he came to Taniquetil, thinking in the madness of his rage and grief that had he been at Formenos his strength would have availed more than to be slain also, as Melkor had purposed. Then Fëanor ran from the Ring of Doom, and fled into the night; for his father was dearer to him than the Light of Valinor or the peerless works of his hands; and who among sons, of Elves or of Men, have held their fathers of greater worth?


Even though Fëanor made some horrible things, he always held his father in high regard and i think that that is why Fëanor was the most loved by Finwë.


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## baraka (Mar 1, 2002)

In Chapter 6 of the Sil 


> Melkor indeed declared afterwards that Fëanor had learned much art from him in secret, and had been instructed by him in the greatest of all his works; but he lied in his lust and his envy, for none of the Eldalië ever hated Melkor more than Fëanor son of Finwë, who first named him Morgoth; and snared though he was in the webs of Melkor's malice against the Valar he held no converse with him and took no counsel from him. For Fëanor was driven by the fire of his own heart only, working ever swiftly and alone; and he asked the aid and sought the counsel of none that dwelt in Aman, great or small, save only and for a little while of Nerdanel the wise, his wife.



I don´t see the jealousy, just pure hatred.


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## Grond (Mar 1, 2002)

Oh yes! The hatred is there but you might want to get a pair of glasses to look at it again. The jealousy is right next to that big dose of hatred.


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## baraka (Mar 1, 2002)

> you might want to get a pair of glasses to look at it again. The jealousy is right next to that big dose of hatred


Sorry, but i just don´t see it. Can you point it to me?


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## Grond (Mar 1, 2002)

baraka, we just have different view points and different opinons. That's what makes the world go round and makes this forum such a wonderful place. I'll go with hatred for Feanor and Melkor and drop the jealousy; but I stand by my jealousy statement concerning Fingolfin. Did you read my post at the very bottom of previous page?


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## baraka (Mar 1, 2002)

Yes, i read your post but in an earlier post i pointed out that Fingolfin too was jealous of Feanor. 



> High princes were Fëanor and Fingolfin, the elder sons of Finwë, honoured by all in Aman; but now they grew proud and jealous each of his rights and his possessions.



See.


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## Beleg Strongbow (Mar 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Grond _
> *Oh yes! The hatred is there but you might want to get a pair of glasses to look at it again. The jealousy is right next to that big dose of hatred.  *




Yes i think so 2.


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## baraka (Mar 1, 2002)

> Yes i think so 2



Ok Beleg, please point out to me the "jealousy" part. I just don´t see it. Why should Feanor be "jealous" of Morgoth!


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## Grond (Mar 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by baraka _
> *Ok Beleg, please point out to me the "jealousy" part. I just don´t see it. Why should Feanor be "jealous" of Morgoth! *


baraka, it is because Morgoth has the three Simlarils. Feanor is angry, vindictive, spiteful, wrathful, hateful and jealous of Morgoth. His oath proves he is jealous of anyone who claims the Simarils, so much so that a part of the oath swears before Manwe, Varda and Taliquetil that they would pusue with vengeance and hatred to the end of the World, any living thing that would possess a Silmaril other than Feanor or his sons. 

Jealousy as related to Feanor is defined by the American Heritage Dictionary as *painful apprehension of rivalship in cases nearly affecting one's happiness.* 

baraka, doesn't that definition fit or do you disagree?


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## Beleg Strongbow (Mar 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Grond _
> *baraka, it is because Morgoth has the three Simlarils. Feanor is angry, vindictive, spiteful, wrathful, hateful and jealous of Morgoth. His oath proves he is jealous of anyone who claims the Simarils, so much so that a part of the oath swears before Manwe, Varda and Taliquetil that they would pusue with vengeance and hatred to the end of the World, any living thing that would possess a Silmaril other than Feanor or his sons.
> 
> Jealousy as related to Feanor is defined by the American Heritage Dictionary as painful apprehension of rivalship in cases nearly affecting one's happiness.
> ...





That is what i think 2.


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## baraka (Mar 2, 2002)

In the Sil, Chapter 9 


> Then Fëanor swore a terrible oath. His seven sons leapt straightway to his side and took the selfsame vow together, and red as blood shone their drawn swords in the glare of the torches. They swore an oath which none shall break, and none should take, by the name even of Ilúvatar, calling the Everlasting Dark upon them if they kept it not; and Manwë they named in witness, and Varda, and the hallowed mountain of Taniquetil, vowing to pursue with vengeance and hatred to the ends of the World Vala, Demon, Elf or Man as yet unborn, or any creature, great or small, good or evil, that time should bring forth unto the end of days, whoso should hold or take or keep a Silmaril from their possession.



Hmmmm...., i agree with the definition and in regards of the oath I think that he was "litle jealous" of any who claim possesion of a sil!
 , but in the end who made them? It was not his fire in them (granted) but they were the invention of the mightiest of all the Children of Ilúvatar. . The thing to point out is that Fëanor is jealous of Melkor because he stole his most precious work and not because of Melkor himself. 


> In that time were made those things that afterwards were most renowned of all the works of the Elves. For Fëanor, being come to his full might, was filled with a new thought, or it may be that some shadow of foreknowledge came to him of the doom that drew near; and he pondered how the light of the Trees, the glory of the Blessed Realm, might be preserved imperishable. Then he began a long and secret labour, and he summoned all his lore, and his power, and his subtle skill; and at the end of all he made the Silmarils.



Nevertheless, i think that Melkor was even more jealous of Fëanor, because he went to such great lengths to hurt him.


> Then Melkor lusted for the Silmarils, and the very memory of their radiance was a gnawing fire in his heart. From that time forth, inflamed by this desire, he sought ever more eagerly how he should destroy Fëanor and end the friendship of the Valar and the Elves


Truly, only a genious of Fëanor stature could make them. Although I would say that there is more hatred than jealousy, you see Fëanor cannot be jealous of someone (possible exceptions Aule and other Valar) because he is such a genius that his works were unparallel.


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## baraka (Mar 4, 2002)

> I think that had he volunteered to give the Silmarils back (even though they were stolen by Melkor, Feanor did not know this at the time), the Valar would have waged war immediately on Melkor. Finwe's death would have been avenged, the Silmarils would have been recovered and then broken and their light used to heal the Two Trees, thus bringing Valinor back into the "Light of the Trees".



I don´t think that the Valar (Manwe) would have waged war immediately, that was not his reputation.


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## Harad (Mar 7, 2002)

> Feanor is angry, vindictive, spiteful, wrathful, hateful and jealous of Morgoth.



After careful consideration, I have come down on the side of: not jealous.

That doesnt seem the appropriate emotion to me. The others are correct, except for maybe spiteful--that seems a little too petty for Feanor.

However, I agree with Baraka, that Feanor, being so full of himself, is not "jealous" of Melkor. Feanor feels he is better than Melkor...better than anybody as a matter of fact.

Are you jealous of a thief for stealing and having what is yours? Thats not the right word. Jealous is when somebody outperforms you or is luckier than you. Not when they attack you.


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## Grond (Mar 8, 2002)

Thanks Harad, I knew that you'd be weighing in on my side!!


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## baraka (Mar 8, 2002)

> Feanor feels he is better than Melkor...better than anybody as a matter of fact.


Wasn´t he? 



> Are you jealous of a thief for stealing and having what is yours? Thats not the right word. Jealous is when somebody outperforms you or is luckier than you. Not when they attack you.


I agree, although using this definition:


> Jealousy as related to Feanor is defined by the American Heritage Dictionary as painful apprehension of rivalship in cases nearly affecting one's happiness.


I kind of agree.


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## Maedhros (Mar 19, 2002)

*Jealousy*

My father, the great Feanor, could not be jealous of Melkor. How could he, the mightiest craftsmen of all time, and without rival could be jealous of someone else. There isn´t someone (elf or maiar) who could outperform my father.
Actually, being close to my father the only one who could come slightly close to him was my brother Curufin. In a way I envied the relationship between my father and Curufin, because they were so much alike, there were things that only the two of them could comprehend. The swords and gems that my brother made were only bettered by those of my father.


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## Grond (Mar 19, 2002)

*Re: Jealousy*



> _Originally posted by Maedhros _
> *My father, the great Feanor, could not be jealous of Melkor. How could he, the mightiest craftsmen of all time, and without rival could be jealous of someone else. There isn´t someone (elf or maiar) who could outperform my father.
> Actually, being close to my father the only one who could come slightly close to him was my brother Curufin. In a way I envied the relationship between my father and Curufin, because they were so much alike, there were things that only the two of them could comprehend. The swords and gems that my brother made were only bettered by those of my father. *


And, Maedhros, who held the most treasured jewels your father ever made??? He took them by force, killing your grandfather in the process. Could his name be Melkor? I think so... and that would be the reason for your father's hate... and your father's scorn... and your father's anger... and your father's jealousy.


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## Maedhros (Mar 19, 2002)

How could someone be jealous of his thief of his treasure? Mad and angry, but jealous? Wrong emotion.


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## Grond (Mar 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Maedhros _
> *How could someone be jealous of his thief of his treasure? Mad and angry, but jealous? Wrong emotion. *


jealous - 3. Having to do with or arising from feelings of envy, apprehension, or bitterness: jealous thoughts

From The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Now, Maedhros, do you really expect me to believe that you or any of your brothers or *your father* didn't have feelings of envy, apprehension or bitterness towards Melkor? Heck, that is a great description of those feelings and your gonna reject it? C'mon.


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## Maedhros (Mar 19, 2002)

> Now, Maedhros, do you really expect me to believe that you or any of your brothers or your father didn't have feelings of envy, apprehension or bitterness towards Melkor? Heck, that is a great description of those feelings and your gonna reject it? C'mon.


I would say that according to that definition, we would be "jealous".
But i do not comprehend, how could someone be "jealous" of someone who stole something from you. To me that emotion is hatred. But envy? Why would my father envy someone? He had no rival, no one could outperform his works.
So you are telling me that my father was jealous of Melkor, because Melkor stole from him his silmarils? To me it seems that your master was jealous of my father and desired above else his jewels.


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## Nerdanel (Apr 1, 2002)

I think that Celebrimbor, Curufin's son, was greater than his father and closer to his grandfather. After all, he forged the rings, did he not? And I'd say the rings would be the second more important craftwork (after the silmarils, of course) of all time  

Nerdanel, proud wife, mother and grandmother


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## Grond (Apr 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Maedhros _
> *
> I would say that according to that definition, we would be "jealous".
> But i do not comprehend, how could someone be "jealous" of someone who stole something from you. To me that emotion is hatred. But envy? Why would my father envy someone? He had no rival, no one could outperform his works.
> So you are telling me that my father was jealous of Melkor, because Melkor stole from him his silmarils? To me it seems that your master was jealous of my father and desired above else his jewels. *


Let's use a different analogy Maedhros. If Fingon stole your wife (who you value above all else in the world) from you. Would you not feel anger, hatred, spite, malice, AND *envy and jealousy* towards him? Would your father have felt any less emotions for the person who now possessed HIS Silmarils. Surely you jest if you attempt to say differently.


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## Maedhros (Apr 2, 2002)

> If Fingon stole your wife (who you value above all else in the world) from you. Would you not feel anger, hatred, spite, malice, AND envy and jealousy towards him? Would your father have felt any less emotions for the person who now possessed HIS Silmarils.


I think there is a difference in the analogies Grond. The silmarils were "made" by my father, whereas a wife or a loved is not made but chosen by free will. My "wife" would have chosen me.
I would not be "jealous" of someone who stole some of my "property something "material", i would be mad or angered.


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## Maedhros (Apr 2, 2002)

Welcome Nerdanel the wise to this forum.

Your humble son, Maedhros.


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## Grond (Apr 2, 2002)

Now Maedhros, you are being naive. Your father prized the so-called works of his hands greater than he did any living thing save mabye his father. He certainly prized them more than his wife. He prized them enough to forsake Valinor and the Vala and all else. They were so prized that he vainly sacrificed his life and the lives of nearly all that went with him. I have given you the definitions and a comparable analogy. If you choose to disagree, we simply have a difference of opinion. But... you're wrong!!


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## Maedhros (Apr 2, 2002)

> He certainly prized them more than his wife.


Shhhh. My mother is right here.



> Your father prized the so-called works of his hands greater than he did any living thing save mabye his father. He certainly prized them more than his wife. He prized them enough to forsake Valinor and the Vala and all else. They were so prized that he vainly sacrificed his life and the lives of nearly all that went with him.


My father held his father in greater worth than the sils. There's no maybe about it.


> Then Fëanor ran from the Ring of Doom, and fled into the night; for his father was dearer to him than the Light of Valinor or the peerless works of his hands; and who among sons, of Elves or of Men, have held their fathers of greater worth?


I think you have to take into account the fact that Melkor stole his silmarils and slayed his father. To me, my father went to ME to search for his silmarils and to avenge the death of Finwe.
I believe he would have left Valinor sooner or later, with or without Melkor, he wanted to learn and to see new things.
Remember, my father didn't force anyone to come to him to ME. Finarfin forsook that march and remained in ME.
How could i be wrong, i was there remember.


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## Grond (Apr 2, 2002)

Ahhhh Maedhros, but you were wrong. You were wrong in the kinslaying of Aqualonde, you were wrong in not defying your father at the abandonment of Fingolfin to the Helcarxe, you were wrong in taking an Oath that doomed you to failure and you were wrong in ultimately throwing away the very thing you had fought for thousands of years to recover. 

My question to you is... If you were there, how did you let things go so wrong???

BTW, this is friendly banter. I say this simply so you don't really think I'm serious. I feel it necessary at this point to make sure I'm understood with things as they are on the board currently. 

I love you viewpoint Maedhros, but just because you were there doesn't make you right.


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## Maedhros (Apr 2, 2002)

Grond, i have great respect for you and your viewpoints. It's a shame that in this forum things appear to be getting pretty boring. 

Answering your questions:


> 'But how shall our voices reach to Ilúvatar beyond the Circles of the World? And by Ilúvatar we swore in our madness, and called the Everlasting Darkness upon us, if we kept not our word. Who shall release us?'


I was moved to madness by the words of my father and the oath seemed like a natural thing then.


> Maedhros the eldest of his sons, and on a time the friend of Fingon ere Morgoth's lies came between, spoke to Fëanor, saying: 'Now what ships and rowers will you spare to return, and whom shall they bear hither first? Fingon the valiant?'


I didn't forget my friend, yet i could not fight my father and my brothers. I always repented by my decision.


> But the jewel burned the hand of Maedhros in pain unbearable; and he perceived that it was as Eönwë had said, and that his right thereto had become void, and that the oath was vain. And being in anguish and despair he cast himself into a gaping chasm filled with fire, and so ended; and the Silmaril that he bore was taken into the bosom of the Earth


This was not wrong, it was a work of destiny.



> My question to you is... If you were there, how did you let things go so wrong???


I was bound by my oath. I'm an elf of honor above all, although i did repent of every evil deed i committed.


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## Grond (Apr 2, 2002)

Yes, Maedhros, you were without doubt the most noble and just of all Feanor's sons and you did, indeed, repent of what you did. And, had events not unfolded as they did, there would be no _The Hobbit_ and not _The Lord of the Rings_. I pray that whereever you reside in the Halls of Mandos, that there you have found happiness and rest from your long labours in this world.

As for me... I continue to lie here in this puddle of Balrog refuse at the very depths of the Pits of Angband where not even the waters of the Ocean overhead can reach. As someone else said, "It is gone forever... all is dark and empty!" And so too is Grond... "gone forever... all is dark and empty!" Until the lands are changed and that which is sunken shall be raised and that which was lost shall be found. A mighty weapon of lore was Grond... forged from mithril and gold bound with black leather and sable.

Man, the board must be boring for me to post such drivel!!


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## Maedhros (Apr 2, 2002)

Yet Sauron made a weapon and named it after you. Oh Hammer of the Underground.


> The drums rolled louder. Fires leaped up. Great engines crawled across the field; and in the midst was a huge ram, great as a forest-tree a hundred feet in length, swinging on mighty chains. Long had it been forging in the dark smithies of Mordor, and its hideous head, founded of black steel, was shaped in the likeness of a ravening wolf; on it spells of ruin lay. Grond they named it, in memory of the Hammer of the Underworld of old. Great beasts drew it, Orcs surrounded it, and behind walked mountain-trolls to wield it.



P.S. What happened to your title, it was cool.


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