# Were Orcs Immortal?



## Beleg (Jul 3, 2003)

Were orcs Immortal or Mortal?

Please give the reasoning behind you're verdict.


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## Celebthôl (Jul 3, 2003)

In a word...no...

Me Tolkien said so...


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## Manveru (Jul 3, 2003)

I think that they were 'mortal', though they were created in likeliness of the Elves.

Elves' immortality is bound within the fate of Arda. Their spirits last as long as Arda exists. After death their spirits (fear) leave the body (hroar) and go to Mandos and after that, when they are cured from hurts and grieves, they may be re-embodied. That's how it works for me

Now take Orcs: they are created by Melkor in likeliness of the Elves, so should be also 'immortal' as well, but where do their spirits (if they have ones) go? Not to Mandos, that's for certain... so how can they be re-embodied?

That's only my theory...


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## Confusticated (Jul 3, 2003)

Here's a thread asking the same question:

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=9543&


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## Elendil3119 (Jul 3, 2003)

No, Orcs were not immortal.


> Moreover, the Orcs continued to live and breed and to carry on their business of ravaging and plundering after Morgoth was overthrown. They had other characteristics of the Incarnates also. They had languages of their own, and spoke among themselves in various tongues according to differences of breed that were discernible among them. They needed food and drink, and rest, though many were by training as tough as Dwarves in enduring hardship. They could be slain, and they were subject to disease; *but apart from these ills they died and were not immortal*, even according to the manner of the Quendi; indeed they appear to have been by nature short-lived compared with the span of Men of higher race, such as the Edain. ('Myth's Transformed', Morgoth's Ring)


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## cardanas (Jul 4, 2003)

of corse they werent immortal
the eexperimants left them pathetic


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## Eriol (Jul 21, 2003)

It depends on the year you ask . Before the overhauling of the mythology that Tolkien planned but never completed, I think Orcs were immortal (being corrupted Elves). After Tolkien 're-thought' this part of his myth I think it is clear he imagined Orcs differently; _those_ Orcs were mortal.

I think you can safely say that, for instance, orcs in LotR --Shagrat and Gorbag -- were immortal; they even make an allusion to Sauron's first Downfall. Had Orcs history classes?


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## Beleg (Jul 22, 2003)

> Had Orcs history classes?



Nah, but word probably spread like wildfire among them; pretty chatty things they were when they wanted to be. 

What I would have liked in LOTR would be a bit more Orc conversations and scenes; they seemed pretty interesting and even amusing.


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## Eriol (Jul 22, 2003)

Yes, Shagrat and Gorbag were great... especially by describing Sam as a big Elf!



Yet, I think they are talking from memory when they talk about the Great Siege; I think Orcs were immortal in Tolkien's mind at that time. Perhaps I'm nuts. But I get this feeling when I read they talking about it.


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## Inderjit S (Jul 22, 2003)

What about the Orks that were corrupted Maia? They would be immortal. In _Myths Transformed_ Boldog of the _Lay of Leithian_ is mentioned as a possible Maiacal Ork. Also, If I remeber correctly isn't Bolg, quite old? Azog, his dad, was slain in 2799, Bolg was slain in 2941. that makes him *at least* 141 yrs old, a lot longer then your average Man may have lived, as Elendil's quote from M.T says, they had a short-life span in comparison to the Numenoreans. But you should be VERY, VERY careful in quoting from the Ork section of M.T. I really cannot give a yes/no, I really doubt whether there is a right answer, it is a matter of textual interpretation or misinterpretation, whatever the case may be. Ask any good scholar like Elenion or jallan and you should get the answer.


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## Tar-Elenion (Jul 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Inderjit S _
> I really cannot give a yes/no, I really doubt whether there is a right answer, it is a matter of textual interpretation or misinterpretation, whatever the case may be. Ask any good scholar like Elenion or jallan and you should get the answer.




Your answer is pretty much the same as mine would be. JRRT does not seem to have come to a firm decision on the 'heritage' of Orcs. My personal preference is the one that has them as descended/bred/corrupted from Elves, Men and Maiar.


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## Turin (Aug 13, 2003)

Orcs seem really weak in a battle one good warrior could kill 15+. I couln't really imagine an old orc, maybe when they get old the younger ones eat em.


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## Stridir (Aug 14, 2003)

well, orcs used to be elves so that would explain that. but could they die of old age?


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## Turin (Aug 15, 2003)

They didn't used to be elves they were made in mockery of the elves, so there not immortal.(Read the other posts on this thread)


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