# Melkor in the Void



## cniht (Jun 23, 2004)

I am confused about one thing.
If Melkor departs the Arda, where will he go? The Void? If so, then he can return at will even after the Valar overthrow him.

Split from another thread in the HoME forum. -- Gorthaur


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## Aulë (Jun 23, 2004)

> _The Silmarillion: Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath_
> But Morgoth himself the Valar thrust through the Door of Night beyond the Walls of the World, into the Timeless Void; and a guard is set for ever on those walls, and Eärendil keeps watch upon the ramparts of the sky.



Yes, he was cast into the void. And guards were put in place to prevent him from returning. But it was prophesised that he would return at the Last Battle, where he would be destroyed for good.


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## Arvedui (Jun 23, 2004)

But in the beginning, Melkor went into the Void by himself, looking for the Flame Imperishable, and he was able to return as he pleased then, so he will probably be so again.


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## Gothmog (Jun 23, 2004)

In the Beginning, Melkor went from the Timeless Halls out into the Void looking for the Flame Imperishable, the rules concerning Arda are somewhat different.


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## Aglarband (Jun 23, 2004)

Melkor got screwed.


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## Arvedui (Jun 24, 2004)

Well, I have never read that take on it before.
Could you please elaborate?

Cause to me, it was the other way around.


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## cniht (Jun 26, 2004)

Thanks. I'm going to recheck this part. Fancy how I missed it in the first place.


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## Grond (Jul 10, 2004)

cniht said:


> Thanks. I'm going to recheck this part. Fancy how I missed it in the first place.


Once Arda was formed, the Vala were "committed" to it and absent intervention from Eru, couldn't leave. In the beginning, before the forming of Arda and the descension of the Vala into Middle-earth, they were housed in the Timeless Halls. They could all wander into the Void or anywhere else in the netherworld they desired.


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## Confusticated (Jul 10, 2004)

That the Valar could leave I think is evident by the fact Melkor left it during the shaping of Arda. It seems what they did not do is leave Ea.

The Valar spent some time in Ea (versus void or timeless halls) before entering into Arda.

Void is sometimes used to mean void in the true sense, something beyond the universe, but other times it is used to mean the empty spaces within Ea itself. It may be that Melkor was still within Ea, just outside of Arda in some desolation perhaps.


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## Lhunithiliel (Jul 10, 2004)

As for the main subject of this thread I have revewed a few passages from the Silmarillion and some material from the HoMe - series (as much as I have it) and I understand it that the *Void* is what we would call the _Universe_ and in it the world for the Children of Iluvatar was built.
Here are several extracts from the _Silmarillion; Ainulindale _:



> But when they were come into the Void, Ilúvatar said to them: 'Behold your Music!' And he showed to them a vision, giving to them sight where before was only hearing; arid they saw a new World made visible before them, and it was globed amid the Void, and it was sustained therein, but was not of it ...
> 
> Then there was unrest among the Ainur; but Ilúvatar called to them, and said: 'I know the desire of your minds that what ye have seen should verily be, not only in your thought, but even as ye yourselves are, and yet other. Therefore I say: Eä! Let these things Be! And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be; and those of you that will may go down into it. And suddenly the Ainur saw afar off a light, as it were a cloud with a living heart of flame; and they knew that this was no vision only, but that Ilúvatar had made a new thing: Eä, the World that Is.


And "summarizing” it in _Valaquenta_:


> Therefore Ilúvatar gave to their vision Being, and set it amid the Void, and the Secret Fire was sent to burn at the heart of the World; and it was called Eä.



Also, in _"Myths Transformed"_ we learn more :


> Others (Ainur) there were, countless to our thought though known each and numbered in the mind of Ilúvatar, whose labour lay elsewhere and in other regions and histories of the Great Tale, amid stars remote and worlds beyond the reach of the furthest thought



So, Melkor for some reason *could* dwell in the Void - He dwelled there before enetring Ea=the World and later after he was banished.

Which I find as a kind of an evidence that the _Evil_ he represents Tolkien did not want to place among constant "elements" of the prime world, meant and created for the Children of Eru, as it was the case with the rest of the Valar who were bound to the world and did not leave it, could not leave it, for their thoughts (sung in their music) *were* those "elements" that built that world.
_Evil_ exists but it is not a part of this world, so it may be cast away "into the Void" and thus the world be turned back to its prime source - _good_ - represented by the rest of the Valar.

* * *

There is however sth. that I spotted while reading through some texts and it concerns the word _*void*_ itself.
The word is used very often, true. Sometimes it is used as a noun with the meaning of the "timeless halls" of the "nothingness" , the Universe etc; in other cases it is used as in the meaning of "null"="nothing"; yet in other cases it is used as an adjective to express "empty". There's nothing strange in that, of course. 
But have you noticed that as a noun it is written in two different ways?
Look_Silmarillion, Ainulindale_)


> ……..and a sound arose of endless interchanging melodies woven in harmony that passed beyond hearing into the depths and into the heights, and the places of the dwelling of Ilúvatar were filled to overflowing, and the music and the echo of the music went out into the *Void*, and it was not *void*…
> 
> 
> To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren. He had gone often alone into the *void* places seeking the Imperishable Flame; for desire grew hot within him to bring into Being things of his own, and it seemed to him that Ilúvatar took no thought for the *Void*, and he was impatient of its emptiness.



How to understand that once this word is written with a capital letter and then not, and the meaning is *the same* = the Universe !? ... 
Or ... is it *the same* ?  

What do you think?


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## Celebthôl (Jul 10, 2004)

The way i see it:

Void, means the Universe, the capital V makes it a place...its not a name (well it is, but you know what i mean!) and its not the beggining of a sentence.

Whereas void, means: "Completely lacking" (thank you d.com hehe), so where it says "it was not void" it indicates, it was not completely lacking, i.e. the music had filled it and it had something in it, it was not void!


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## Lhunithiliel (Jul 10, 2004)

True, I thought of that, too.
But in BoLT, for example there's not such a "play" with the initial letter and the story and the meaning of the word and of the context it is used in, are the same as in the quotes I provided. I mean that the conception of the Void seems to have not changed unlike a lot others of the cosmogonic theories.


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