# Taking the Ring to Minas Tirith...



## Flammifer (Sep 22, 2003)

I just wonder...

If Frodo had taken the Ring to Minas Tirith instead of 'screwing himself up' and going straight to Mordor, would it really have been taken from him?

Gandalf says that the blood of Numenor runs nearly true in Denethor, and it does also in Faramir. So from this we can draw an important likeness in their moods and thought patterns, can we not?

Therefore, if Faramir was able to resist the Ring, would Denethor not have been able to also? Because if anyone was going to use the Ring rather than Frodo at Minas Tirith, surely it would be Denethor, and if not him then Boromir. I believe also that if Denethor commanded Boromir not to take the Ring that Boromir would have obeyed.

This is contrasted by how Denethor says to Faramir that Boromir "would have brought him a mighty gift", meaning the Ring. But maybe this was when Denethor was starting to lose it, as the wearing down of his city began to increase.

I dunno, it's just an idea. I agree that there was weakness in Minas Tirith, but I think *possibly* the Ring could have been resisted.


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## Starflower (Sep 22, 2003)

I don't know.... i thnk Denethor had begun to lose it years ago, and had Frodo brought the Ring to him, it would most certainly brought along ruin. SInce Denethor was deceived by what Sauron showed him in the palantir, he would more than likely tried to use the Ring and it would have ended up consuming him like others before him. THere would have been a new Lord of the Ring, Minas Tirith fighting an endless war against Barad-dur and bringing everything to ruin. I don't think being of Numenorean blood has a lot do with how strong the person was in resisting the Ring, after all, Isildur was about as pure Numenorean as one gets, and he fell under the spell of the RIng. Faramir was of purer heart and intent than his father and brother, that's why he was able to resist the RIng.





Starflower


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## Celebthôl (Sep 22, 2003)

Yes it would have, remember the blood ran even truer in Isildur, and he took the ring. . .


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 22, 2003)

Denethor and Boromir were quite alike in mood and character, as Starflower notes, and if Boromir fell to the Ring's call, I think Denethor might have also.

Denethor's mind was pretty much tainted by Sauron's influencing him via the palantir. He had seen many visions of Sauron's great armies and vast strength through the palantir (and these were intentionally shown to him by Sauron), and having this in mind, Denethor would see using the Ring as the only means of victory.


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## Inderjit S (Sep 22, 2003)

Denethor and Faramir were alike, not Boromir. He was also stated to have been alike to Aragorn/Thorongil. One must question why such a noble person woudl turn out the way he did? There are several factors, his attitude to ruling in the time when the destruction of Gondor was immienent. He felt that the lordliness and kindness demonstrated by Faramir was in a way silly (Sorry not feeling very articulate at the moment) and that tough and ruthless leadership was needed in such critical times. But one marked difference between him and Faramir would have been his grim-nature. He seems to have become more and more depressed since the death of Finduilas, and his 'corruption' of sorts by Sauron via the Palantir, which also quickened his ageing, and the harsh conditions in which he inherited the stewardship all played a part in him being the way he is. Or was.


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 22, 2003)

> Denethor and Faramir were alike, not Boromir.



I said they were alike in mood and character, not in everything. And the impression that one gets from the books, without delving for any quotes, is that Boromir is the one who is much more like his father than Faramir. Denethor and Faramir were both interested in lore, not only combat, but otherwise they were certainly NOT alike in mood and temper. 



> 'When Denethor became Steward (2984) he proved a masterful lord, holding the rule of all things in his own hand. He said little. He listened to counsel, and then followed his own mind. He had married late (2976), taking as wife Finduilas, daughter of Adrahil of Dot Amroth. She was a lady of great beauty and gentle heart, but before twelve years had passed she died. Denethor loved her, in his fashion, more dearly than any other, [color=sky blue]unless it were the elder of the sons that she bore him[/color].





> Boromir, five years the elder, beloved by his father, was like him in face and pride, but in little else. Rather he was a man after the sort of King Eärnur of old, taking no wife and delighting chiefly in arms; fearless and strong, but caring little for lore, save the tales of old battles.





> Faramir the younger was like him in looks but otherwise in mind. He read the hearts of men as shrewdly as his father, but what he read moved him sooner to pity than to scorn. He was gentle in bearing, and a lover of lore and of music, and therefore by many in those days his courage was judged less than his brother's. But it was not so, except that he did not seek glory in danger without a purpose. He welcomed Gandalf at such times as he came to the City, and he learned what he could from his wisdom; and in this as in many other matters he displeased his father.



All quotes from Appendix A to the LOTR.


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## Flammifer (Sep 23, 2003)

Perhaps, but in such vital matters as attempting to use the Ring of Rings I believe that Denethor and Faramir would have been in like mind.

I believe that when Denethor says "Boromir would have brought me a mighty gift", he is unhappy with Faramir because he believes that Faramir does not have the courage to do such a thing, not the fact that Faramir should have actually brought him the Ring or that Denethor or Faramir or anybody else should have used it.

But still, I see everyone's points, patricularly Starflower's...



> Yes it would have, remember the blood ran even truer in Isildur, and he took the ring. . .



Hmm although Isildur was of a very high lineage, I believe that, among other things, the issues of the ability to resist the Ring and whether or not the blood of Numenor runs true in someone are bound together. I do not think, as noble and valiant as Isildur was, that the blood of Numenor ran nearly true in him, though he lived in the land. Boromir was also a mighty warrior, like Isildur, and though of a lesser house, he displayed clear signs of nobility and valiance (is that a word?), but he fell to the Ring also.

It is safe to assume that the Numenorean blood is the Elvish and like one-eighth Maia blood, because the Elves wanted to destroy it, and were able to resist it, (Galadriel, Elrond), as well as the Maia Gandalf. This is with the exception of Saruman who has different circumstances in that he studies too deeply in the Enemy's arts.


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## Gil-Galad (Sep 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Flammifer _
> *Perhaps, but in such vital matters as attempting to use the Ring of Rings I believe that Denethor and Faramir would have been in like mind.
> 
> I believe that when Denethor says "Boromir would have brought me a mighty gift", he is unhappy with Faramir because he believes that Faramir does not have the courage to do such a thing, not the fact that Faramir should have actually brought him the Ring or that Denethor or Faramir or anybody else should have used it.*


I agree with these words,because Denethor was really sorry that Faramir was not like his brother.But.But he really desired the Ring.From the book we can state that Sauron deceived Denethor and the Gondorian Steward just didn't see any hope.
So in a moment of despair(in which we see Denethor in the book)he could easily decide to use the One.He would be leaded by the idea he was using the Ring for the good of his city and his people but,and would made a great mistake.I just think that by the time The War of The Ring began,Denethor had been totally deceived and in power of Sauron.


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## baragund (Sep 23, 2003)

Flammifer, one other consideration you need to make is what would be done with the Ring once it was delivered to Minas Tirith. Assuming both Denethor and Faramir could resist it, what would they do with it? Are you suggesting they could wield it and not fall under it's power? The only alternative would be to somehow lock it away so nobody uses it but, ultimately, Minas Tirith would be worn down and Sauron will get the Ring back.

Don't forget the purpose of the quest in the first place was to destroy the Ring and the only place that could be accomplished is in the Cracks of Doom. Frodo had only one place to go.

If the Ring was delivered to Minas Tirith, it would, sooner or later, consume Denethor and/or Faramir.


On a completely different topic, here is a question for Starflower. What is a "drow"?


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## Starflower (Sep 24, 2003)

> I do not think, as noble and valiant as Isildur was, that the blood of Numenor ran nearly true in him, though he lived in the land. Boromir was also a mighty warrior, like Isildur, and though of a lesser house, he displayed clear signs of nobility and valiance (is that a word?), but he fell to the Ring also.



correction my friend Flammifer : Isisldur was of true Numenorean blood, as his father was the last of the Lords of Andunie, who were direct descendants of Tar-Elendil , the 4th king of Numenor through his daughter Silmarien. So Isildur was really n oble, about as noble as you get , he was of royal blood, but not of the ruling branch of it. 
I don't think the ability to resist the Ring depended on the blood, it depended on the individuals strenght of mind and will, as is shown in Galadriel's struggle when Frodo offers the Ring to her. And I think the reason Boromir found the Ring hard to resist was cause he was a proud warrior, and wanted glory for his city and honor for his father. Denethor thought the Ring would give him power to fight the Darkness, but again, he was a proud man, whereas Faramir is described to be man of compassion and kindness, rather than ambition. This is one of the reasons Denethor thought his son weak, cause he wasn's alike his brother in nature.

and baragund : a drow is a dark elf , you'll find them in the Forgotten Realms series of books.



Starflower


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## baragund (Sep 24, 2003)

Thanks for the info, Starflower. Would these dark elves be the same as the Moriquendi, or related to Eol, maker of Anglachel, of The Silmarillion fame? I haven't read 'Forgotten Realms' yet so I don't recall seeing the term before.

Sorry to be going off topic from what this thread is intended, but you piqued my curiosity.


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## Starflower (Sep 24, 2003)

well they probably have their origins in the character of Eol, but these are darkskinned, blondehaired elves (see the avatar) who live underground, and are considered "evil" by the surface dwelling "normal" elves





Starflower


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## Gil-Galad (Sep 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Starflower _
> *well they probably have their origins in the character of Eol, but these are darkskinned, blondehaired elves (see the avatar) who live underground, and are considered "evil" by the surface dwelling "normal" elves
> 
> 
> ...


And why the normal elves consider the underground ones "evil"?


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## Starflower (Sep 24, 2003)

according to the stroy, all elves were once one, but they served different gods, according to their needs. The drow served Lloth, the Spider Queen. The drow are matriarchal , every house and clan is ruled by a matron mother and her daughters, men are considered good for fighting and breeding purposes only ( see the attraction  ). They are quite brutal in their dealings with other races, whom they consider beneath them, and they ahte the surface elves basically cause the surface elves hate them... The drow are ambitious, selfish, fierce and proud race, they are not evil in the sense that Sauron is evil, more malicious and vengeful,. But if you want to know more, I recommend the Forgotten Realms series . 



Starflower


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## Gil-Galad (Sep 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Starflower _
> *according to the stroy, all elves were once one, but they served different gods, according to their needs. The drow served Lloth, the Spider Queen. The drow are matriarchal , every house and clan is ruled by a matron mother and her daughters, men are considered good for fighting and breeding purposes only ( see the attraction  ). They are quite brutal in their dealings with other races, whom they consider beneath them, and they ahte the surface elves basically cause the surface elves hate them... The drow are ambitious, selfish, fierce and proud race, they are not evil in the sense that Sauron is evil, more malicious and vengeful,. But if you want to know more, I recommend the Forgotten Realms series .
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you!I'll search for it !


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## Starflower (Sep 24, 2003)

shouldn't be too difficult, any bookstore that stocks basic fantasy should have a few FR books 



Starflower


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## Turgon (Sep 24, 2003)

There is a very good description of Denethor in the Letters which might shed a little light on this subject.



> Denethor was tainted with mere politics: hence his failure, and his mistrust of Faramir. It had become for him a prime motive to preserve the polity of Gondor, as it was, against another potentate, who had made himself stronger and was to be feared and opposed for that reason rather than because he was ruthless and wicked. Denethor despised lesser men, and one may be sure did not distinguish between orcs and the allies of Mordor. If he had survived as victor, even without use of the Ring, he would have taken a long stride towards becoming himself a tyrant, and the terms and treatment he accorded to the deluded peoples of east and south would have been cruel and vengeful. He had become a 'political' leader: sc. Gondor against the rest.



In the light of this I would say that Denethor's mind bore little resemblence to either of his sons, though perhaps Boromir was heading down that path ere he took up with the fellowship. Pretty clear why the old boy was aghast to learn that his darling son had sacrificed his life to save a pair of lowly hobbits though eh?


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## baragund (Sep 24, 2003)

Again, I'm real sorry to veer off topic (I suppose I should open a new thread for this) but sometimes it takes a while for understanding to slowly seep through Baragund's thick skull.

"Drow", as Starflower is describing them, are not specifically a creation of JRRT, although there may be some incidental relationship between them and the Moriquendi, is that right?

And I was wondering what the cool avatar belonging to Star was supposed to be. Now I know!


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## Starflower (Sep 24, 2003)

yes my sweet, you are right, JRRT did not create the drow, but I bet if it weren;t for Eol, the drow would never have come to be
and thank you , I quite like my avatar too






Starflower


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## Flammifer (Sep 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Starflower_
> correction my friend Flammifer : Isisldur was of true Numenorean blood, as his father was the last of the Lords of Andunie, who were direct descendants of Tar-Elendil , the 4th king of Numenor through his daughter Silmarien. So Isildur was really n oble, about as noble as you get , he was of royal blood, but not of the ruling branch of it.
> I don't think the ability to resist the Ring depended on the blood, it depended on the individuals strenght of mind and will, as is shown in Galadriel's struggle when Frodo offers the Ring to her. And I think the reason Boromir found the Ring hard to resist was cause he was a proud warrior, and wanted glory for his city and honor for his father. Denethor thought the Ring would give him power to fight the Darkness, but again, he was a proud man, whereas Faramir is described to be man of compassion and kindness, rather than ambition. This is one of the reasons Denethor thought his son weak, cause he wasn's alike his brother in nature.



Yes, on some points I agree with you. However, as I mentioned above, I do believe that it is the 'Elvish' part of the Numenorean blood that makes the Numenoreans greater than other Men. I also believe that it's this 'Elvish' part that is missing when a *Man of Westernesse* cannot resist the Ring. If you consider this:

*Boromir* ====> Could not resist the Ring, _did not_ have Numenorean blood, but was noble and valiant.

*Isildur* ====> Could not resist the Ring, debatably _had no Numenorean blood_, he only had the nobility and valiance which any man that was brought up as he was could have had.

*Faramir* ====> Could resist the Ring, _did have_ Numenorean nearly true Numenorean blood.

*Galadriel* ====> Could resist the Ring, was an Elf.

*Elrond* ====> Certainly had the chance to take the Ring, but resisted it. Was an half-Elf, and the Numenoreans were directly related to him.

If you notice, both Boromir and Isildur, though neither of them could resist the Ring, were noble and valiant, without a doubt. They could stand up to extreme dangers - Boromir wanted to stay on and fight the Balrog, Isildur took on Sauron. However, as noble and valiant as they were, *they couldn't resist the Ring*.

I do agree with you that also aspects of 'strength of mind and will' have to do with one's ablility to resist the Ring, but if you look at the evidence above, I think there's a clear pattern.


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## Starflower (Sep 25, 2003)

> Boromir ====> Could not resist the Ring, did not have Numenorean blood, but was noble and valiant.





> Faramir ====> Could resist the Ring, did have Numenorean nearly true Numenorean blood.



slight discrepancy here, the two men were brothers, how can you say one had Numenorean blood and the other one didnt? 
And what makes Numenorean blood "true" if not being born and bred in Numenore to parents of Numenorean nobility, as was the case of Isildur. You say it is the Elvish blood that makes the blod true and able to resist the Ring, but Faramir for sure had no Elvish blood in him to speak of, adn Galadriel being able to resist the Ring probably had less to do with her race tahn who she was, being of the old Noldorin royalty, daughter of a king and she knew the Ring for what it was, whereas one couldn't say Boromir knew the true nature of the RIng.

Starflower


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## Flammifer (Sep 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Starflower_
> slight discrepancy here, the two men were brothers, how can you say one had Numenorean blood and the other one didnt?
> And what makes Numenorean blood "true" if not being born and bred in Numenore to parents of Numenorean nobility, as was the case of Isildur. You say it is the Elvish blood that makes the blod true and able to resist the Ring, but Faramir for sure had no Elvish blood in him to speak of, adn Galadriel being able to resist the Ring probably had less to do with her race tahn who she was, being of the old Noldorin royalty, daughter of a king and she knew the Ring for what it was, whereas one couldn't say Boromir knew the true nature of the RIng.



It is said by Gandalf that the blood of Numenor ran truly in Faramir, but not in Boromir. So this point is not under dispute.

Faramir *did* have Elvish blood in him. The thing that makes the Numenoreans so great is the Elvish part of their blood, that is the blood that they got from Luthien, Idril, Earendil, and Elros, their first King, who was half-Elven, but chose to be a Man. So Faramir did have Elvish blood, because he had the Numenorean blood, and the Numenorean blood had the Elvish blood.

OK, I shouldn't have used Galadriel as an example, but why not Elrond? He was related directly to the Numenoreans.

What do you mean by _"whereas one couldn't say Boromir knew the true nature of the RIng"?_

If you mean by this that Boromir didn't really know what the Ring could do, with all due respect, I think you are incorrect. He was at the Council of Elrond, where basically the very nature and condition of the Ring was scrutinised by the very very Wise, and made known to all who attended, including Boromir. He knew what it could do, he knew how evil it was. But he also knew its power. Unfortunately he could not overcome the 'power' side to the Ring, and so fell to its temptation. I blame this on the absence of Numenorean blood.


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## Gil-Galad (Sep 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Starflower _
> *slight discrepancy here, the two men were brothers, how can you say one had Numenorean blood and the other one didnt?
> *



Or probably the problems come from the men's ambitions.The ambition to reach immortality was the reason for the Fall of Numenor and yet the ambitions of men were the reasons for many disasters.
Isildur was really ambitious person,different from his brother Anarion.
The same was with Boromir,as his father he was too ambitions.He wanted the best for his Kingdom,for his people,no mattere of the price.
While Faramir was a person who could control his feelings,calm and peaceful person.
So I would say that with the bigger ambitions come the bigger desires......And the desire for the Ring is one of them.


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## Starflower (Sep 25, 2003)

I think you re right G-G , The Ring is tuned to Men's ambitions, not their blood. 





Starflower


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## Inderjit S (Sep 25, 2003)

> I said they were alike in mood and character, not in everything



I am sorry, I thought 'mood and character' encompassed everything personality wise. 

Denethor, is, to me, such a waste of talent, a tragedy, if I have ever seen one. He was capable of such nobility yet he became one of the worst characters in the books.



> 'Denethor II was a proud man, tall, valiant, and more kingly than any man that had appeared in Gondor for many lives of men; and he was wise also, and far-sighted, and learned in lore. Indeed he was as like to Thorongil as to one of nearest kin





> And in one matter only were their counsels to the Steward at variance...., when all was made clear, many believed that Denethor, who was subtle in mind and looked further and deeper than other men of his day



But he had a natural mistrust of Gandalf. Why? I have no idea. Can this be seen as a fault on his part? Not really, not everyone can be expected to get along. 



> Thorongil often warned Ecthelion not to put trust in Saruman the White in Isengard, but to welcome rather Gandalf the Grey. But there was little love between Denethor and Gandalf; and after the days of Ecthelion there was less welcome for the Grey Pilgrim in Minas Tirith. Therefore later, when all was made clear, many believed that Denethor, who was subtle in mind and looked further and deeper than other men of his day, had discovered who this stranger Thorongil in truth was, and suspected that he and Mithrandir designed to supplant him





> because the Elves wanted to destroy it, and were able to resist it,



The Elves knew all about the Ring and it's dangers. Did Isildur know of the ring or enough of the ring to hinder him?

It seems he had repented of his deeds not long after he took the ring as a wergild for Anarion and Elendil. 



> When he at last felt free to return to his own realm he was in haste, and he wished to go first to Imladris; for he had left his wife and youngest son there, 3 and he had moreover an urgent need for the counsel of Elrond





> Alas, it is not, senya. I cannot use it. I dread the pain of touching it. 23 And I have not yet found the strength to bend it to my will. It needs one greater than I now know myself to be. My pride has fallen. It should go to the Keepers of the Three



Whether he would have handed the Ring over is another matter entirely.

Quotes from _Disaster of the Gladden Fields_.

If Denethor gained the ring, then he would have used it whether at the start of the war or until he had no hope left. Either way Sauron would have got hold of it.



> "Drow", as Starflower is describing them, are not specifically a creation of JRRT, although there may be some incidental relationship between them and the Moriquendi, is that right?



None at all.

Isildur was of true Numenorean blood. He was from a lineage far greater then any in M-E. Aragorn can be seen as 'greater' then him (Though he doesn't seem so sure of this at the council). He was said to be akin to Elendur, the person who was most like to Elendil out of all his descendants. 

And what about Sam? Did he have 'Elven-blood'? It wasn't a case of being a Maia or Elven-blood but a case of will-power. If Imrahil saw the Ring would he reject the Ring? Another thing, Faramir never saw the ring, Boromir did. Of course Faramir passed the test, but sight of the ring may or may not have taken a part in his decisions, as well as his nobility and Boromir's inherent attitude as to how the ring should be used. 



> but Faramir for sure had no Elvish blood in him to speak of,



Faramir may have been descended from Elros. His ancestor, Hurin, was said to be a man of High Numenorean race. Therefore it was possible for him to have some Elven blood in him. His mother was Finduilas who was daughter of Adrahil, who was descended from Imrazor who was said to have taken Mithrellas, the Silvan Elf as his wife. They may have been descendents of Elros too, since it is stated they were close kin to Elendil.


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## Gil-Galad (Sep 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Inderjit S _
> *
> Denethor, is, to me, such a waste of talent, a tragedy, if I have ever seen one. He was capable of such nobility yet he became one of the worst characters in the books.
> *


To me too.I must agree with you,that Denethor had had a great talent,and abilities,but he just wasted them.Because of the Palantir and Sauron.


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