# Witch-King



## Evenstar373 (Nov 30, 2003)

This may be a VEARY stupid thing to ask ...but If nazguls are imortal how could the witch King be Killed?


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## Gandalf White (Nov 30, 2003)

Why would you think Nazguls are immortal? 

Of course, they were incredibly hard to kill, taking something extraordinary to get rid of them. I seem to remember there was a prophecy regarding the WK, stating that a mortal man could not hinder him. Fortunately, it was a mortal lady that confronted him.


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## HLGStrider (Dec 1, 2003)

Well, he was somewhat immortal. . . 

Eowyn would not have won had it not been for Merry. Merry's blade, made with Elven skill to destroy wraiths, unmade him, making him mortal. As soon as he was mortal, he could be killed.

I think there are a few other things that have the power to destroy him, so he isn't strictly immortal. ..but he is pretty dang close.


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## Gandalf White (Dec 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> * Merry's blade, made with Elven skill to destroy wraiths, unmade him, making him mortal. As soon as he was mortal, he could be killed.*



Oooh! Could you please give me quotes or something to back this up? It would be very helpful to me in an argument I'm having!


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## Maegnas (Dec 1, 2003)

*I thought they where?????*

I thought that the BLACK RIDERS where immortle. Well if they are than how did Merry and Eowyn kill the Witch King?


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## Maegnas (Dec 1, 2003)

How could a Elvish blade kill a BLACK RIDER???


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## Inderjit S (Dec 1, 2003)

The blade wasn't made by Elves but by a Dúnedain of Arnor. It is stated several times. (Tom Bombadil, Denethor, Mouth of Sauron, narrarator.)


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## Celebthôl (Dec 1, 2003)

Hahaha 

I was the work of Westernese i beileve  and it did something to the WK sinues! Man that debate went of for years. . .


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## HLGStrider (Dec 1, 2003)

I can't remember where it is exactly, the quote, GW, and I don't have time to look right now. I 'm thinking it is perhaps something explained somewhere by Gandalf. . .something about his immortal sinews being unknit. . .does that bring anything to anyone's mind?


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## Thorin (Dec 1, 2003)

Merry's blade was elven and even then it killed the body, not the essence of the Nazgul. Like Sauron when the ring was destroyed, the Nazgul would roam without form and be vanquished from taking form again.

Considering that the ring's power was vanquished, there would be no hope of the Nazgul taking shape again because they got their power through Sauron.


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## Lantarion (Dec 1, 2003)

*Is at a loss for words*
Um, yeah, what he said.. Whoo you're too fast for me Thorin!


Almost identical threads merged.


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## Gandalf White (Dec 2, 2003)

Wait! So Eowyn had nothing to do with it?

(Man, I forgot all about that debate.)


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## Beleg (Dec 2, 2003)

Merry's blade was Mannish, Thorin as told by Inderjit.


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## Inderjit S (Dec 2, 2003)

> For each of the hobbits he chose a dagger, long, leaf-shaped, and keen, of marvellous workmanship, damasked with serpent-forms in red and gold. They gleamed as he drew them from their black sheaths, wrought of some strange metal, light and strong, and set with many fiery stones. Whether by some virtue in these sheaths or because of the spell that lay on the mound, the blades seemed untouched by time, unrusted, sharp, glittering in the sun.


 _Fog on the Barrow Downs_ 



> Pippin lifted it and presented the hilt to him. ‘Whence came this?’ said Denethor. ‘Many, many years lie on it. Surely this is a blade wrought by our own kindred in the North in the deep past?


 _Mina Tirith_ (Denethor speaking to Pippin.)



> Merry’s sword had stabbed him from behind, shearing through the black mantle, and passing up beneath the hauberk had pierced the sinew behind his mighty knee.


 _Battle of the Pellenor Fields_ 



> Then he looked for his sword that he had let fall; for even as he struck his blow his arm was numbed, and now he could only use his left hand. And behold! there lay his weapon, but the blade was smoking like a dry branch that has been thrust in a fire; and as he watched it, it writhed and withered and was consumed.


 _Battle of the Pellenor Fields_ 



> Dwarf-coat, elf-cloak, blade of the downfallen West


 _The Black Gate Opens_ (Mouth of Sauron to the captains, the 'blade of the downfallen West' was Sam's barrow-blade.


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## HLGStrider (Dec 3, 2003)

I probably was imagining that quote about unmaking his immortal sinews again. . .like I was imagining that part about Aragorn traveling to the Sea of Rhun in the appendix. . .

I make up things when I have a memory gap sort of subconsciously, it seems.


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## Maegnas (Dec 3, 2003)

Don't fell bad I do the same thing.


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## Gandalf White (Dec 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> *I probably was imagining that quote about unmaking his immortal sinews again. . .*



Nope, it's not imagination, except for the adjective 'immortal.' I think the actual word was 'mighty,' but I can't for the life of me remember where it is.


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## Eriol (Dec 3, 2003)

> No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will



The Battle of the Pelennor Fields.



And about Aragorn in Rhûn:



> I have crossed many mountains and many rivers, and trodden many plains, even into the far countries of Rhûn and Harad where the stars are strange.



The Council of Elrond -- when Aragorn is telling Boromir how his journey from Gondor to Imladris was no big deal for a guy like Strider .


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## Gandalf White (Dec 4, 2003)

*slaps head*

Doh!  I don't deserve to be posting here, after this! 

Anyway, what does it mean, "knit his unseen sinews to his will?" A stab behind the knee is by no means a mortal blow. 

And Aragorn tells the hobbits that the Wraiths cannot see as men do, yet he looks at Eowyn with his eyes. Probably easily explained, but I'll ask anyway.


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## Arvedui (Dec 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Gandalf White _
> *Anyway, what does it mean, "knit his unseen sinews to his will?" A stab behind the knee is by no means a mortal blow.
> *


I think this has been debated before..... 
But here's my two cents:
Merry's stab made the Witch-king killable. Without Merry at the scene, Eowyn would not have been able to strike the lethal blow, and it would not have mattered very much if she was not 'a man'.


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## Lantarion (Dec 4, 2003)

Yup I agree. Merry's blade "unknit" the cursed spells which kept the Witch-king in one piece, and then Éowyn needed only to strike him down.


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## laurelindorenan (Dec 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lantarion _
> *Yup I agree. Merry's blade "unknit" the cursed spells which kept the Witch-king in one piece, *



So the Witch King had some other magic eh? Ah, of course, because the people of Gondor felt his presence over them or something, right? Cool. Anyway, maybe it was because Eowyn was a woman that the WK fell. Something to do with the being not a man, right? Yeah.


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## Evenstar373 (Dec 4, 2003)

I am out done by all of yall and I think I will just stay out of this before I get hurt


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## Arvedui (Dec 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by laurelindorenan _
> *So the Witch King had some other magic eh? Ah, of course, because the people of Gondor felt his presence over them or something, right? Cool. Anyway, maybe it was because Eowyn was a woman that the WK fell. Something to do with the being not a man, right? Yeah. *


Being a man or not had nothing to do with it, IMO.
I think that Glorfindel's prophecy concerning the end of the Witch-king is one of the most misinterpreted parts of the stories that have emerged from Tolkien's world.

Glorfindel did not say that Men or men could not kill the Witch-king.
What he said, was that the Witch-king would fall by the hands of a woman. 

Think of it as foreseeing, and not a curse, and you will see the difference.


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## laurelindorenan (Dec 5, 2003)

Right. Glad to have that cleared up. So the prophecy or whatever did come true then. Though I suppose the Witch King might have seen it as a curse, even though you have so well informed me it wasn't. *thinks what it must be like to be Witch King*


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## Gandalf White (Dec 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Arvedui _
> *Glorfindel did not say that Men or men could not kill the Witch-king.
> What he said, was that the Witch-king would fall by the hands of a woman.
> 
> Think of it as foreseeing, and not a curse, and you will see the difference. *



Please forgive my stupidity. But doesn't the prophecy then mean that males, while _capable_ of killing the Witch King were _unable_ to do so? This would be further backed up by the WK himself:


> You fool. No living man may hinder me.


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## Lantarion (Dec 5, 2003)

Hehe, I'd say that the Witch-king was being a touch arrogant there.. Nothing to do with actual ability or possibility. 

LOL that's an excellent contradiction: ". But doesn't the prophecy then mean that males, while capable of killing the Witch King were unable to do so?"


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## Flammifer (Dec 5, 2003)

Going back to the origin of the Barrow-blades, I would also add this to Inder's convincing list of quotes:



> _The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King, "The Battle of the Pelennor Fields"_
> 
> So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, *work of Westernesse*. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dunedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king.



If you look at the bold writing, apart from all the other quotes Inder has provided us with, it is clear that the sword was a work of Westernesse.

Anyway, about the immortality of the Witch-king, this is my opinion - 

I think that we are looking at the whole "immortality" thing the wrong way. The Ringwraiths were not "immortal" as Elves were. They survived while the Ring survived. 

They were _wraiths_, that is, they were of the spirit world, and were only made visible when they wore clothing - otherwise they were completely invisible (save the eyes) to anyone Hobbit, Dwarf or Man who lived in the normal world.

They were wraiths because they became enslaved to their nine Rings - just as Gandalf explains to Frodo in the chapter "The Shadow of the Past"; if one wears a Ring of Power too much you begin to "fade", and eventually you will become invisible to any other who lives soully in the normal world. You will become a wraith. Not a Ringwraith, but just a wraith, "lesser, and under their control".

So basically, as the Ringwraiths were enslaved to their Rings, and in turn the nine Rings were under the power of the One Ring, the Ringwraiths survived as long as the One Ring did.

Therfore, the Nazgul were not immortal. They were sort of "stuck there".

When Eowyn and Merry combined to defeat the Witch-king, they erased him from the normal world - he could not grow or take shape again. He was completely powerless. But he was not completely "gone" or "dead" until the One Ring was destroyed.


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## Helcaraxë (Dec 6, 2003)

I disagree that the witch king dies at at all. It never says, "and the Witch-King kicked the bucket." What the book does say is, "his cry would never be heard in THIS AGE OF THE WORLD" or something like that. Not "in this age of the world. It says nothing about any other ages.

--MB


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## Inderjit S (Dec 6, 2003)

It's just a cryptic literay technique used by Tolkien, a archaic way of saying "he is dead and you will never see him again."

Since Tolkien states several times that with the end of the T.A came the end of the mytholgoical or supernatural apsects of M-E then we can assume he never came back again.

Besides with the destruction of the Ring *all* the Nazgûl were destroyed.


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## Gandalf White (Dec 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lantarion _
> *LOL that's an excellent contradiction: ". But doesn't the prophecy then mean that males, while capable of killing the Witch King were unable to do so?"  *



It's all in the wording...

Translation: In a 1 on 1 fight a male could beat the Witch King, bar the prophecy. But, as prophesied, he would not be killed by a man, so no male could hope to kill him. 

Weren't the Nazgul "undead?"



> _Originally posted by Lantarion _
> *Hehe, I'd say that the Witch-king was being a touch arrogant there.. Nothing to do with actual ability or possibility.*



The WK doesn't strike me as the type who would be arrogant or boastful. I think he was merely stating he knew his fate wasn't to be by a man's sword. Remember, when Dernhelm revealed herself, the WK was thrown into doubt, perhaps realizing for the first time that man was meant as a gender, not a race.


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## Lantarion (Dec 8, 2003)

You mean you sincerely think that after commanding a troop of Sauron's most elite servants, and after being in Sauron's personal favour for hundreds of years, and after displaying the powers he has, the Witch-king would not be proud or arrogant at all?! 

I beg to disagree.


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## Gandalf White (Dec 8, 2003)

Fine, I will allow that he had reason to be proud. Whether or not he let that pride go to his head is debatable. Even if he did, there is no proof that his statement was a result of this arrogance. 

But still, you entirely ignore my second point!  If he was just boasting when he said


> No living man may hinder me!


 then why was he suddenly in doubt when Dernhelm revealed herself to be a woman?


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## Lantarion (Dec 8, 2003)

Doh sorry I didn't read that second point properly. 

Yeah you may be right there. I say that the WK first said "No living man may hinder me" arrogantly, expecting 'Dernhelm' to be just some Rohirrim-soldier on his own. I think what really stunned the WK was Éowyn's own determination and lack of fear in his presence; after all the WK had probably grown accustomed to all his enemies to shrivel in fear when he came near them, and even though he was undead he was still a Man, an evil Man at that, naturally full of pride and flaws and errors in judgment.
But it is possible as well that he might have reconsidered the meaning of his 'doom'; but I just don't see the Witch-king blindly accepting a fate which some Elf somewhere has once said.


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## Arvedui (Dec 8, 2003)

One detail that strikes me as a little odd:

*Did the Witch-king know about Glorfindel's Prophecy?* 

I can't see how or why he should, but others might have an answer.
But if he didn't, then how could he mean anything else than in the same lines as Lanty suggests?


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## HLGStrider (Dec 9, 2003)

Was it Glorfindel's personal prophecy? I always assumed he'd read it somewhere or that it was a common legend.


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## Arvedui (Dec 9, 2003)

The prophecy can be found in the Appendices. (I am a bit on thin ice here, not having the books with me.)

Gondor and Círdan tried to come to the aid of Arthedain when the Witch-king overran it in 1974 T.A. But they were too late to save the Kingdom of my alter ego. Nevertheless, they were able to destroy the forces of Angmar, and only the Witch-king remained.

Eärnur (I think it was him, but if I am wrong, someone will probably correct me ) tried to go against the WK, but his horse was too afraid and the WK disappeared in the fog.
When Eärnur(?) wanted to pursue, Glorfindel uttered the famous words.
The way the whole situation is described has led me to believe that it is foreseeing, and not a prophecy that says that Men or men cannot kill the Witch-king.


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## Lantarion (Dec 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Arvedui_
> The way the whole situation is described has led me to believe that it is foreseeing...


Excellent notion!! Glorfindel was a mighty Elven hero, and if Galadriel and other Elves had some natural gift of foresight then it is not impossible that Glorfindel also did.
In this light it certainly seems that Glorfindel was only forseeing the future demise of the WK, which might have been twisted into 'prophecy' over the years.


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## Gandalf White (Dec 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lantarion _
> *Yeah you may be right there. I say that the WK first said "No living man may hinder me" arrogantly, expecting 'Dernhelm' to be just some Rohirrim-soldier on his own. I think what really stunned the WK was Éowyn's own determination and lack of fear in his presence; after all the WK had probably grown accustomed to all his enemies to shrivel in fear when he came near them, and even though he was undead he was still a Man, an evil Man at that, naturally full of pride and flaws and errors in judgment.*


 If the WK was stunned by Éowyn's determination, he should have been so _before_ she revealed herself to be a woman. Already she had shown complete determination, as well as a lack of fear, but at the mention of being a woman, doubt entered his mind. 



> _Originally posted by Arvedui_
> *Did the Witch-king know about Glorfindel's Prophecy?*



This is what it says about Glorfindel's prophecy:


> These words many remembered.


 It wouldn't be surprising if the WK got wind of this foresight. Lanty pointed out how he was a flawed, proud human, so he could have easily translated this as a prophecy, mistaking man for Man. This would explain his statement to Éowyn, as well as his doubt when he considered that 'man' might mean gender. 

What really confuses me is the difference between 'foresight' and 'prophecy.' Could someone give my dense mind a detailed explanation?


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## Arvedui (Dec 9, 2003)

I get your point. Hard to tell, but my understanding is that a prophecy is more of a curse, while foresight is what is says.
I better check my Dictionary before commenting in more detail.


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## Lantarion (Dec 9, 2003)

Yeah that's basically it Arvedui.
Foresight means seeing the future, seeing what will happen; if you have the 'gift of foresight', you will often see things that have not happen yet but will in the future.

A prophecy is something basically 'set in stone'. You dno't have to believe it because a prophecy is not necessarily correct. But it is a statement which is held to be a 'doom' over somebody or something; it can be good or bad.

But the two are tied.


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## Arvedui (Dec 9, 2003)

*foresight* _noun (approving) _ 
the ability to predict what is likely to happen and to use this to prepare for the future.
*prophecy* _noun_ 
*1* a statement that sth will happen in the future, especially one made by sb with religious or magic powers.
*2* _formal_ the power of being able to say what will happen in the future.

_From the Oxford Advanced Learners's Dictionary_ 

So from this one can deduct that a _prophecy_ is more certain than _foresight._ 
Either way, neither a prophecy nor foresight can be taken to the meaning that only a woman *can* kill the Witch-king. As I said earlier: Glorfindel "saw" that in the end, the Witch-king would be killed by a woman.

Gandalf White: Thanks for the quote. I agree that it is indeed likely that the Witch-king may have heard of the prophecy.


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## Gandalf White (Dec 9, 2003)

Ahhh, it makes so much more sense now. Thanks for the help. 

So if/when the WK did get ahold of Glorfindel's foresight he blew it out of context, apparently.


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## Lantarion (Dec 10, 2003)

You mean Glorfindel's *prophecy*, fool!! Have you learned nothing?!  

The way I see it, the WK either a) heard about the prophecy and assumed it meant that no _person_, i.e. nobody could kill him ('Man' does not necessarily mean the race, or the gender); or b) he didn't hear about it and it was a legendary coincidence that Glorfindel's prophecy came true. 
Also in the context of 'a)', it is arguable whe´ther Glorfindel meant for the WK to hear about his prophecy _in order_ for him to show forth his arrogance and grow unwary and prideful.


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## Gandalf White (Dec 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lantarion _
> *You mean Glorfindel's prophecy, fool!! Have you learned nothing?!
> 
> The way I see it, the WK either a) heard about the prophecy and assumed it meant that no person, i.e. nobody could kill him ('Man' does not necessarily mean the race, or the gender); or b) he didn't hear about it and it was a legendary coincidence that Glorfindel's prophecy came true.
> Also in the context of 'a)', it is arguable whe´ther Glorfindel meant for the WK to hear about his prophecy in order for him to show forth his arrogance and grow unwary and prideful. *



Wait, now you're saying that Glorfindel's statement was a prophecy, when before you said


> In this light it certainly seems that Glorfindel was only forseeing the future demise of the WK, which might have been twisted into 'prophecy' over the years.



Your point 'a' agrees with my statement


> he blew it out of context, apparently



But (b)? Arvedui gave the definition of a prophecy, so how could you call option (b) a "legendary coincidence?" 

I also doubt Glorfindel uttered it to throw the WK off guard. By saying this, he prevented Eärnur from chasing a WK whose army had just been entirely defeated, and who was basically on the run. Why, when he had the chance to end him now, would he choose to stop Eärnur and build the WK's ego?


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## Lantarion (Dec 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Gandalf White_
> Wait, now you're saying that Glorfindel's statement was a prophecy


Doh you're right! 
It was a joke in the first sentence (indicated by the two grinning smilies ), and then I accidentally started using it in the rest of my post!!  Sorry 'bout that..
But in hindsight my option b) could be logical, because a prophecy is not inherently correct, as I see it.
But no, I flipped for a second, sorry. 

And yeah it was only a vague hypothesis about the intentions of Glorfindel in uttering the "prophecy" .


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## Helcaraxë (Dec 10, 2003)

Anyway, if the witch king could only be made killable by a blade of westernesse or the elves, why didn't Frodo's knife that he stabbed the WK with on weathertop make him killable?


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## Eriol (Dec 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MorgothsBane _
> *Anyway, if the witch king could only be made killable by a blade of westernesse or the elves, why didn't Frodo's knife that he stabbed the WK with on weathertop make him killable? *



Frodo's knife only cut throught the Witch-King's robe, or it would have been broken. Check "A Knife in the Dark" for more details .


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