# Questions on Reading the Silmarillion



## Kit Baggins

*I don't get it...*

I tried reading the Silmarillion once, and I didn't really understand it, so could someone please give me a basic summary of what it's about  ?

~Kit


----------



## Telchar

Uhm.. Well.. I can give you a realy short summary..

The Silmarillion is about the creation of Arda and the comming of the Elves. It tells about the First age and the war of the Jewels/ the war agains Melkor, the Morgoth, and the War of Wrath where the Valar decide to attack Morgoth. There are also stories from the Second Age that tells about Numenor and the forging of the Rings of Power and the Drowning of Numenor..

That's all I'm willing to tell you, the rest you'll have to read about.. 

btw, Welcome to the Tolkien Forum!


----------



## Rosie Cotton

Welcome Kit!  I'm not going to try to add to Telchar's summary. I will recommend trying to read The Silmarillion again in a few years. I know that I couldn't get past the first section the first time I tried to read it. It just took me a few more years, and a few more readings of LOTR to get me intrested enough to read it all the way through.


----------



## Spectre

I'm new here too...but I completely agree with Rosie on this. I had read the hobbit and the lord of the rings many times, and the first time I read the Silmarillion I had trouble getting past the first part. When I tried again a few years later I was able to get through it and I loved it.


----------



## Ancalagon

Hello Kit, love the name.

The Sil is the type of book that really does not need to be read cover to cover, unless of course you wish to look upon it with scholarly interest. You can use it to glean information in relation to many of the aspects you read about in the Lord of the Rings. If you consider this work as a more accessible version of The History of Middle-Earth, then you can pick it up at any time, search for a reference, learn a little history or plough deep into it. The options are endless with the Sil. I refer to it often, even though I read it many times, I simply use it to check my own understanding of certain themes. 

The same can be said for Unfinished Tales, which is really an extension of Tolkiens works. Again, this will cover many of the loose ends without the need to read in depth. As much as I recommend you read them in total when the time is right, don't disregard them, for they are still essential reading for any appreciative Tolkien enthusiast.


----------



## Grond

Welcome Kit. Your profile shows that you're 15 and that's plenty old enough to appreciate the Silmarillion. Let me make a few suggestions.
1) For now, ignore the Ainulindale. It basically reads like a bible and tells of the music of the Ainur (angels if you will) at the bidding of Eru (God) from which tune the earth and heavens were formed as well as the plan for all that lies therin. It is beautifully written but not an easy read. Once you've sunk your teeth into some of the other tales, you can come back to it.
2)Read the Quenta Silmarillion in small doses. (Maybe a chapter or even a half chapter a day). You'll find that it grows on you and before long you'll be reading it the same way you read LotR. If you are still getting bored try reading Chapter 19 "Of Beren and Luthien". It tells of Arwen's ancestor who is mentioned in the LotR several times. It is a beautiful love story and one of the bravest and most interesting in the Sil.
3) If you keep getting bored with the Quenta Silmarillion... try the Akallabeth. It tells of the rise and fall of the island of Numenor whom Aragorn is descended from. It, too, is an interesting read and tells a lot of Sauron and the Ring.
4) If none of that holds your interest... at least read "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age". It gives you all kinds of background on the making of the Rings of Power and tracks that history from their making and follows them into the time of LotR. 

Hope this helps and if you'll give it a chance.... I think you'll find the reading just as enjoyable.. only slightly different in tone and rhythm.


----------



## Aredhel

*Who really likes the Silmarillion?*

Who likes the Silmarillion? I read when I was fourteen and I have been captivated by it. It was one that I really liked because it was about elves.


----------



## Gothmog

I have had as much enjoyment out of the Silmarillion as I have from the Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. To me it is an essential part of the story. when I start reading Tolkien's books again I allways start with the Sil.


----------



## Ancalagon

I think it a fascinating book, not at all similar to the Rings. It is also as far-removed from the general storytelling of the Hobbit as you could imagine. The fact we can look in much greater depth at the history of Middle-Earth and it's creation is incredibly interesting.

Oooooh, makes me want to read it for my..hmmmm, how many would this be now?


----------



## Kementari

I loved the Sil! I think i enjoyed it more than LotR (if that is possible)...


----------



## syongstar

*silmarillion*

When I first read it as a teen I enjoyed it but did'nt see the symbolism therefore had no grasp of its depths but after studing ancient religons I thought it was totally AWESOME!!!!


----------



## Tyaronumen

The Silmarillion changed the way that I view the world, myself, and all the things in between. A wonderful book, most truly.


----------



## Rosie Cotton

I think that the Sil is a very impressive book of high quality, but I'm afraid I don't like it all that much. I've only read it once though, and I think I will get A LOT more out of it my next read through. I think I may have liked it more if I could have followed it better. So many names to remember! My poor little brain couldn't take it.


----------



## Courtney

I love the Sil.!!!! It took me all summer to read, though. It's just a lot to take in. I had no idea what it would be like when I first read it. I like the very beginning when the Valar were a song, and then Melkor messed it up(sounds like some trumpet players i know. He he!) The world would be a much better place if it really was made from music!


----------



## Hama

The three main books by Tolkien in the Middle Earth series are just so different, and seem to serve different purposes. The Hobbit is a great children's book, although it remains accessible to older readers, but I would still view it at the same level as the Narnia series or the Wind in the Willows (just better!). The Lord of the Rings is just a great novel. No that would be an extreme understatement. But the Silmarillion is at a whole new level. It is epic mythology, and I believe it is the 20th century's version of Homer and Hesiod, of the Bible, of the Mahabharata and Ramayana, and of the Icelandic sagas. I read somewhere, that Tolkien is the imaginative equivalent of an entire society, and I believe the Silmarillion makes this so, more than any other book. Whenever I travel anywhere I take a copy with me, so that when I am bored I just flip open to any old page and revel in Tolkien's language. As a Classics student, I specialize in Greek and Roman mythology, and that makes me love this saga even more. A number of people I know are just bogged down by the immense number of names, but having grown up reading Indian, Norse, Egyptian and Greek myths, I for one do not find that to be as much of a problem. Just like the Hobbit and the LoTR, I think if one catches this book at the right age and in the right mood, there is nothing comparable to it, and I was one of the more fortunate in this regard. I just wish more people would take the courage to read it and appreciate it as much as myself.


----------



## Hama

Kit, 
I got off to quite a late start to the world of Tolkien. I was first introduced to the hobbit at about nine, and read it in entirity about two years later. I loved it, but didn't get past the first chapter of the Lord of the Rings until I was fifteen. So I guess I didn't read the Silmarillion till I was about fifteen or sixteen and in the last two years (I am now 18) I must have read it cover to cover at least six times, and more in bits and pieces. I agree with Grond for the most part. The Ainulindale is a bit heavy, but the Quenta is great. Don't worry about the names. Refer back to the glossary and family trees whenever you don't know who someone is. I also saw a book on sale once entitled the Complete Guide to Middle Earth, or the Dictionary of Middle Earth or something to that effect (Grond, Ancalagon and Co. can you help me out?) I am sure that would be a good companion to the Silmarillion. I also agree that the Unfinished Tales is a great book to read if the Silmarillion captures your fancy. If it doesn't wait a year or two and pick it up again. Cheers.


----------



## menchu

The Silmarillion is essential!
After reading it you can understand anything that LOTR mentions about the past.

I think I've never read anything like that. Tolkien made a great work, looks so real. I think it's amazing to find such a succesful view of a world created for a story. Not only the languages, but the Geography, the History, the lineages...

I remember an article from a magazine which said this book pretended to show the past, a possible one, of the Earth.


----------



## Aredhel

*I l*

I liked the part about Luthien Tinuviel and Beren Erchanion(is that how you spell it?). The part I find most intriging was the elves unending quest to retrieve the Silmarils. I read the LotR first, then the Silmarillion. I enjoyed the character Galadriel a lot. When I read the epic history of the elves, and she came over from the West, I didn't realize she was so old.


----------



## Tar-Steve

My last reading of The Silmarillion (less than a month ago) was different than before. I had not read it for a long time (more than 15 years). I had previously enjoyed it but mainly appreciated it for the enhancements it had provided towards my LOTR readings. With this latest reading (at least my third) the stories were so much more intense, moving, and emotional.

I can't stress enough that all of the Middle-earth stories need to be read and re-read before they overwhelm you with their quality, depth, and completion. Of course, the first reading can overwhelm you too, but each time I read them, as I change over time, they keep getting better and what I take from them continues to expand.

Anyway, to answer your question ... yeah! I liked it a lot!


----------



## DGoeij

I can't say liked is the word. It took me some time to go through but it truly enriched my understanding of Middle Earth, the Rings of Power, Beren and Luthien and so much else. It was best to be reading it for a second and third time, because I really got out of it what was in it.


----------



## Dengen-Goroth

I love it, think it is the best thing Tolkien ever wrote. Much better then LoTR in my opinion. I can't imagine how great it would be had Tolkien written a book like LoTR in it's detail but within the first age.


----------



## Ancalagon

Now theres an interesting point;



> I like the very beginning when the Valar were a song, and then Melkor messed it up



Do you think Melkor, being an offshoot of the thought of Iluvatar was doomed to bring confusion and disruption to this music, because he was representative of Iluvatars own darker nature?

Your thoughts one and all.


----------



## Courtney

That's a very good point. However, Illuvator must not have had a too dark of nature, if only one out of all the Valar was evil. I kind of think it would have been really boring if Melkor was good, though. You have to admit, people really love having something to fight for, and someone to hate.


----------



## Ancalagon

Ahh, but you have to remember that Melkor, mightiest of all the Ainur (though the only reputed to have woven discord into the music) was not the only one who was inherently evil. Many of those who sang were later to become part of his legion. Not all of those who joined him were disillusioned or corrupted by him , many simply followed the path he chose in admiration of his splendour and majesty.


----------



## Courtney

It may be a bit off the subject, but what would be wrong with a few minor chords in the song of the world? It makes it a bit more interesting. Discord isn't all that bad.


----------



## Hama

I think this is a crucial topic, and am happy that someone brought it up. I think Melkor was definitely a side of Iluvatar, and that seems to be an element of all mythology. Many gods are given human characteristics and are seen to have vices as well as good sides to their personalities. Tolkien did a really interesting thing and decided to make one of the principal gods evil - the most mighty of the Valar at that. But remember, Manwe was the one that was closest to the will of Iluvatar. I would say that the Valar did not have the power to revolt from Iluvatar, but Melkor the greatest of them did. He also had the ability to corrupt the will of many of the Maiar. But this brings in a good question. Were all of the struggles between the good and the evil in Tolkien's world determined when the Ainur were formed by Iluvatar?


----------



## DGoeij

You should start your own thread about this Ancalagon, so others may notice the discussion. Really interesting topic. I certainly will think it over and when I have a little more time on my hands, I'll post my views.


----------



## Ancalagon

In order not to hijack the original question within this thread, I have moved my own question into this new thread;

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1051


----------



## Eonwe

I love the Sil, much more so than LoTR (I am so bizzare)

My favorite part is when Elwe meets Melian in the forest, she is singing, then they stare into each other's eyes in the forest for so long the stars above them wheel... That is so cool and romantic and I am not even close to a girl. (I consider myself a he-man like Hurin wielding his axe saying dawn will come)

I am such a newbie!

I think what people don't like about the Sil is that it is so sad (Turin is so hard to read). But I think it is fantastic...


----------



## Merry

*Re: Who really likes the Silmarillion?*



> _Originally posted by Aredhel _
> *Who likes the Silmarillion? I read when I was fourteen and I have been captivated by it. It was one that I really liked because it was about elves. *



If I had read the Silmarillion first I wouldn't have enjoyed it. Because I read the hibbit and LOTR first, the Silmarillion facinates me because it gives the history of M-E and the birth of time. I view it more as a history lesson rather than a story.

I didn't realise Tolkiens true genius until I started the Sil


----------



## Curufinwe

*Silmarillion*

Look at Tolkiens life he was very christian. Eru was definatly god if you look at the similarities, Melkor was Satan, obviously and the other Valar were of tolkiens creation for he loved norse and celtic stories which had many gods and he wanted to create a whole world like that of the norse or celtic people or maybe even the greeks. He wanted to make a mythology for England he says in a documentary and also it is mentioned in some of the books.


----------



## Tulidian

*Question on the Sil*

I just got the Silmarillion, and am reading it now. It is a lot harder for me to read than the rest of LotR, because there is so little dialogue, but I'm determind to read and understand it. I am only at the beginning right now, but I am trying to get one thing straight. I know Sauron was a servent of Melkor. I either accidently skipped a part by accident or haven't got to it, but is Sauron a Maiar? Maybe corrupted by Melkor? This makes sense to me, because Maiar are stronger than the Istaru, so that would make Sauron stronger than Gandalf, which is true. Also, I know this isn't the movie forum, but if Sauron is a Maiar he doesn't have a shape or form, right? So why in the movie did they give him a shape, was it just another PJ blunder, or am I missing something else?


----------



## Telcontar

Man, I remember when I read the Sil for the first time: I found myself going back over passages a number of times to make sure I had the connections down; because as you say there's little dialogue but a lot of info.

Sauron was a Maia of Melkor (as each of the Valar had Maiar as their 'helpers'); and though the Maiar were visible in the Blessed Realm, in ME they rarely took visible form or a form that could be recognized. Up to the foundering of Númenor, Sauron could put forth an image that didn't appear evil. After the foundering of Númenor, be was never able to take a 'pleasing' form.


----------



## Curufin

I really love Silmarillion. There are so many good stories with fascinating characters


----------



## Curufinwe

*Sil*

The Istari were originally maiar aswell though, and sauron was I think a maia of Aule for he found out how to make inevitably the rings of power.


----------



## Dengen-Goroth

Indeed true! Remember though, Sauron had to have had ashape for the ring to be cut of his finger, but after the fall of Numenor he could no longer remain fair to the eye. As for the Istari, they were also Maia, read the Unfinished Tales, of the Istari.


----------



## Greymantle

Yeah... I don't think the Istari ever _stopped_ existing as Maiar: why would they? They aren't just _originally_ Maiar, but continue to exist as such (as far as I know!). Presumably it's just the same with Sauron and the Balrogs.
Hey, whatever happened to Melian? It's been yearish since I read the Sil, and I'm forgetting most of it. I've just started my re-read.


----------



## Ancalagon

Keep reading; your questions will all be answered in due course. I would recommend re-reading the first 2 chapters severals times, just to aquaint yourself with who's who. Look for all relations to Melkor, for in that you will notice that not all those Maiar who followed him were corrupted by him; some simply chose to take the path he chose.


----------



## Tulidian

Ah, okay im beginning to understand now. I'll continue reading and reading until I finally have this all down. Thanks for all the help!


----------



## Zoe

*Where do I start????*

I am new to the wonderful world of Tolkein. I saw the LOTR movie and LOVED it. But the only Tolkein book I've read is The Book of Lost Tales 1, which I thoroughly enjoyed. So now I am very excited to dive deep, but I don't know where to start. The Hobbit comes before the LOTR trilogy, right? Where does the Silmarillion come in? I can't wait to read these books! Thanks so much.
Zoe


----------



## Nazgul

I propose you to read the books in this order:
- The Hobbit
- Lord of the Rings
- The Silmarillion
- and then all HoME

I read in this order and this the most convenient one to read and understand the books


----------



## lilhobo

Never read the Silmarillion , it s just too sad a tail for any youngster.........just watch 90210, at least their tragedies are palatable??? maybe not lol


----------



## Curufinwe

*Order*

read them like this so you can understand everything really well.

Silmarillion, it cold also be the hobbit 1st but i suggest you at least read silmarillion so you understand all of the references that they make in lotr.

Silmarillion
Hobbit
LOTR
HOME1-12


----------



## Retrovertigo

It's better to read the Hobbit and lotr first, otherwise you don't have the faintest clue of whats going on, who these people are or their relevance. 
It's easier to get involved in the narratives of the others and then the history will be much more interesting and a gripping read. Well.. thats how it worked for me and a few other people I know.


----------



## Telchar

Well.. The right order to read the books, to get the most out of them, don't exist..

As for the books chronological (sp?) order..

The Silmarillion
The Hobbit
The Lord of the Rings

Other books about Middle Earth are:
Unfinished Tales
The History of Middle Earth (HoME)

As for HoME..

Books 1 to 5 mostly tell of the First Age, and some about the Second..
Books 6 to 9 tells of the War of the Ring in the Third Age..
Books 10 to 11 tells of the Wars against Melkor, the Morgoth
Book 12 is about the people of Middle Earth and tells much about Men..


----------



## ReadWryt

Just read them in the order that the professor created them in, The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, The Silmarillion ...etc...

The only thing about the Silmarillion is that reading it the first time as if it were a novel is daunting, it's nealy all narative and it's a lot like reading the Bible for it's entertainment value...


----------



## Merry

> _Originally posted by Elwood _
> *It's better to read the Hobbit and lotr first, otherwise you don't have the faintest clue of whats going on, who these people are or their relevance.
> It's easier to get involved in the narratives of the others and then the history will be much more interesting and a gripping read. Well.. thats how it worked for me and a few other people I know. *



Hi Zoe

Welcome to the forum, try and read the hobbit and LOTR first. The Silmarillion fills in the gaps from the first two and completes the picture. I would not have managed the Sil if I read it first.


----------



## Rushlight

*correct order.....*

This has been most helpful......I am rereading LOTR after many years, and have just finished Fellowship of the Ring. My husband is reading Two Towers and he is just too slow! Sigh. So I'm getting out my highlighter and gonna start the Sil tonight to give me a Tolkien fix until he finishes Two Towers. So good chance I will be back with lots of questions, I have the feeling it's not such easy reading. We'll see.

Rushlight


----------



## Greymantle

I agree with Curufinwe... Like I've said before, I really think that reading the Sil (and understanding it!) before LotR would be an amazing experience, if somewhat daunting. Just think what it would be like to understand the full magnitude of this great culmination of a gartantuan epic mythology... truly to understand the nature of Sauron, the life of Gandalf, the magnitude of the treason of Isengard.... You'd just have to be careful not to read the last bit of the Sil about the Third Age. 
I would recommend reading the Hobbit first. It's a good introduction.
I haven't read UT yet (my stupid Amazon order! I sent for it New Year's Eve!!!) nor completed HoME (working on it, loving it) so I wouldn't know where to place them... but I do know that reading all of Tolkien's drafts of LotR (volumes 6-9, at least what I've read) would be a pointless excercise if you haven't read LotR first...hehe...


----------



## Snaga

I think it must be really unusually to start with BoLT1.

I definitely think the Sil is hard work. Rewarding eventually but for pure entertainment and immersion in the whole JRRT experience LotR is definitely the best. I don't think you need the Hobbit first, but most people do.


----------



## Curufinwe

Yep the Silmarillion is hard but definately worth reading.


----------



## Flame of Utumno

I found that after reading the Hobbit and LoTR I really wanted to learn more about Middle Earth and this led me to the Silmarillion. I loved discovering how all things were so tightly integrated, and how some characters such as Galadriel and Elrond were present in the Silmarillion as well as in the Lord of the Rings.

The order in which I read them was: (The years beside them were when I first read them)

1. The Hobbit (1987)
2. The Lord of the Rings (1988)
3. The Silmarillion (1989)
4. Unfinished Tales (1990)
5. The Book of Lost Tales Part I (1990)
6. Lays of Beleriand (1990)
7. Various parts of the History of Middle Earth (1991)
8. The Adventures of Tom Bombadil (For fun in 2001)

I hope you enjoy reading them as much as I did!


----------



## My_Precious

Sillmarillion... I never managed to finish it.I read it not in english, I pretty soon I was lost in all those names which were translated differently in all three books... ('Hobbit', 'LoTR', and 'Sillmarillion'.


----------



## Greymantle

That would be extremely frustrating. Even for an all-English language type like me, distinugishing names in the Sil is difficult. I mean, please! Finwë, Fëanor, Finrod Felagund, Fingolfin, Finarfin, Fingon, Finduilas... come on! Give us a break!  
And then to top it off, all the names are switched around in UT and HoME.


----------



## Rushlight

I am having one heck of a time with The Sil.......you're right, Greymantle. The names! Good grief. How I wish I hadn't killed so many brain cells in the '70's! I might be able to keep it straight in my head. 

I just keep flipping back to the index and that helps somewhat.

Rushlight


----------



## fëanáro

*im in the middle of the book and i still dont get the places straight in my head*

iv read up tu "of the men coming to the west" and i still dont get really straight up in my head where the $$%& is aman, middle-earth, valinor, beleriand, angband, utumno, the guard realm, the blessed realm and gondolin.
could any one plz explain me in great ranges where is each place as if they were continents if they are, or countries, or states or cities. plz!


----------



## Tar-Steve

Rushlight,

Pick up a copy of "The Complete Guide to Middle Earth" by Robert Foster ($6.99 US) or similar publication. I wish I had had one when I was reading The Sil for the first time. It may save you a lot of page turning and Sil-searching time.


----------



## Bucky

Don't feel bad.
It took me 3 readings to get a clue.

You obviously know what a troll is however......


----------



## Gloer

*Ok. Lets try MAPPING M-E to Earth:*

Aman = USA Mid-West

Tol Eressea = Cuba

Beleriand = area now under the Norther Atlantic

Angband = Iceland (they never managed to destroy Angbands Balrogs and they just build Thangodrim again...it's called mt. Hekla)



Mordor = Carpathian mountains in the Balkans

Minas Tirith = Arround Wien
Gondor = Austria and Northern Italy

Umbar = Under the Mediterranean Sea, somewhere near Cyprus

Shire = Middle England

Bree = London

Rivendell = just west of Bergen in the North Sea, you now that Brunein got wilder later...

Blue Mountains = now under the Irish Sea, Scotland, Shettland, Faroe islands

Rohan = Hungary and Poland

Fangorn = Northern German forest areas if any left

The Misty mountains = Norway, the Skadis mountains

Mirkwood = Sweden, Finland

The White Mountains = the Alps

Numenor = Atlantis

Anduin = Tornio river, Gulf of Bothnia, Baltic Sea, then Oder, Moldau, Donau and into the Adrian Sea.

There you go.


----------



## EverEve

do u hav ethe three in one version of the book (u know, the one where they r all in one volume)? cuz if u do there are alotta maps in the bak taht tolkien made that r really helpful...and dont feel bad, i still confused too


----------



## fëanáro

thanx gloer, it really helped. but found a page!
www.lotrmaps.da.ru
and there i found some maps, but im not sure they´re right, probably they are but i dont know .
http://members.home.nl/r3t/r3t_M10.jpg
http://members.home.nl/backx/r3t_M14.jpg

hope you´ll take a look at'em and tell me what u think about'em
thanx


----------



## Rushlight

Thank you! I will do that. Sounds like just what I need to help me muddle through.

Rushlight


----------



## Greenwood

> Angband = Iceland (they never managed to destroy Angbands Balrogs and they just build Thangodrim again...it's called mt. Hekla)



RE: Iceland

Gloer

I was reading some Icelandic sagas recently (in English translation, I don't read Icelandic) and at times found myself having flashes of deja vu to LOTR. It was not anything specific as to plot or characters (with one exception), but more a sort of "feel" at times. Of course, given his professional studies, I feel fairly certain that Tolkien read the Icelandic sagas, so I may have just been sensing a distant influence. The one exception I mentioned above was coming across a mention of a character, "Frodi the Valiant"!


----------



## Gloer

*Aa... wasn't that the king?*

Wasn't Frodi the only viking king ever to reign in peace... a man of peace amongst warriors?

Now what was that ringbearer again... what was his name...


----------



## lilhobo

its amazing you thought Numenor as Atlantis!!! wonder where JRR got his inspiration from


----------



## Aldanil

Given that the name of Numenor, as told in the Akallabeth, in the Eldarin tongue is Atalante, the question of Tolkien's inspiration seems fairly settled. More than that, his myth-making intention apparently in this matter was in yet another way to weave the history of Arda into the ancient legends of our own world.


----------



## Greenwood

> Wasn't Frodi the only viking king ever to reign in peace... a man of peace amongst warriors?



Gloer

Sorry, I can't answer that. I will have to do some research on it. Frodi the Valiant was just mentioned in passing in one of the sagas. I still have a number of others to go.


----------



## Gloer

*Frodi*

Well I checked it. Frodi under whose reign there was peace in the North.

From the Prose Edda:

XLII. "Why is gold called Fródi's Meal? This is the tale thereof: One of Odin's sons, named Skjöldr,--from whom the Skjöldungs are come,--had his abode and ruled in the realm which now is called Denmark, but then was known as Gotland. Skjöldr's son, who ruled the land after him, was named Fridleifr. Fridleifr's son was Fródi: he succeeded to the kingdom after his father, in the time when Augustus Caesar imposed peace on all the world; at that time Christ was born. But because Fródi was mightiest of all kings in the Northern lands, the peace was called by his name wherever the Danish tongue was spoken; and men call it the Peace of Fródi. No man injured any other, even though he met face to face his father's slayer or his brother's, loose or bound. Neither was there any thief nor robber then, so that a gold ring lay long on Jalangr's Heath. King Fródi

{p. 162}

went to a feast in Sweden at the court of the king who was called Fjölnir, and there he bought two maid-servants, Fenja and Menja: they were huge and strong. In that time two mill-stones were found in Denmark, so great that no one was so strong that he could turn them: the nature of the mill was such that whatsoever he who turned asked for, was ground out by the mill-stones. This mill was called Grótti. He who gave King Fródi the mill was named Hengikjöptr. King Fródi had the maid-servants led to the mill, and bade them grind gold; and they did so. First they ground gold and, peace and happiness for Fródi; then he would grant them rest or sleep no longer than the cuckoo held its peace or a song might be sung. It is said that they sang the song which is called the Lay of Grótti, and this is its beginning:

Now are we come
To the king's house,
The two fore-knowing,
Fenja and Menja:
These are with Fródi
Son of Fridleifr,
The Mighty Maidens,
As maid-thralls held.

And before they ceased their singing, they ground out a host against Fródi, so that the sea-king called Mýsingr came there that same night and slew Fródi, taking much plunder. Then the Peace of Fródi was ended. Mýsingr took Grótti with him, and Fenja and Menja also, and bade them grind salt. And at midnight they asked whether Mýsingr were not weary of salt. He bade them grind longer. They had ground but a little while, when down sank the ship; and from that

{p. 163}

time there has been a whirlpool the sea where the water falls through the hole in the mill-stone. It was then that the sea became salt.


----------



## Greenwood

Gloer

I hadn't gotten to that Edda yet. I will have to see if the compilation I have includes it.

Thanks.


----------



## Gloer

*check this link for Edda...*

Here is a good link:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/index.htm


----------



## Greenwood

Gloer

THANK YOU!!!

What a great site! Really fascinating. I have known for years in a sort of vague way that Tolkien was inspired by Norse mythology and texts, but it was only on a trip recent trip to Iceland that I was inspired to pick up a compilation of a number of the Icelandic sagas. I have been reading some of them as time allowed and enjoying them. As I said in an earlier post I was struck by a feeling of deja vu while reading them, but I did not know quite how extensive the links apparently are.

Thanks again.


----------



## Samwise_hero

*What is it about*

I just finished reading the lord of the rings and i started the silmillarion but i just can't get into it. What's it all about


----------



## Elanor2

The origins and creation of Middle Earth (by Eru-Iluvatar-God) and the battles between the powers of Good and Evil to control it. The arrival of the first races and their struggles, plenty of battles and sad stories, with some happy endings to cheer up. 

Gives you the background of plenty of stories that LOTR mentions, but it is written in a kind of Epic manner that makes it a bit difficult. Just take it slowly.

Elanor2


----------



## lilhobo

it s like your grandma sitting u down and taking out the photo album and telling you about the "good ole days"


----------



## DGoeij

Its worth the effort IMHO. Nothing easy to it, but it gives you great insights on the world of ME and its inhabitants. Have fun, and like Elanor2 said. Take it slowly, take your time.


----------



## Grond

Samwise_hero, first I want to welcome you to our forum and congratulate you on beginning your journey. 

The Silmarillion is such a difficult narrative story (much like the Bible) that it intimidates most everyone at first. My suggestions is to ignore the Ainulindale and just skim the Valaquenta. Don't try to remember all the Vala and their names and purposes. After skimming the Valaquenta go directly to the Quenta Silmarillion and read a chapter. Put the book down for the day. Day 2, begin reading Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age. This will get you used to the narrative style while speaking of things that already interest you since you know of the Rings of Power from the LotR. Read it at your own pace and then come back to the Quenta Silmarillion when you've finished that. Read maybe a chapter a day until you're finished. Then proceed to the Akallabeth and read of Aragorn's ancestors in Numenor. It too is interesting and shouldn't be too hard to read. Once you've finished all that, go back and tackle the first two books in the Silmarillion (the Ainulindale and the Valaquenta). By this time you'll be familiar enough with the style and content to both understand and enjoy the whole book. Enjoy!!


----------



## fëanáro

well as a catholic I have to say:

its like the bible yew, but to a fantasy book level, lord of the rings lever. we must not think that it is as dense, deep and meaningful as the bible, even if it is taken on a lord of the rings level. I´ve read parts from the bible and every time i read them again i get different thinkings and meanings and gets more and more confusing.
on the other hand the simarillion its only like the Genesis, if u wanna compare it to the bible, (although is not that deep) its the beginning of everything.

You must remember! the bible is deep, the simarillion is not, is just confusing fairy tales, thats it. 
The bible has stuff in between lines (means that means more than it is written and more than u think it means).
The simarillion means just what it is written.
The bible is not mythical, its moral, ethical and personal; its not history!
the simarillion is just history.


I must say I loved the Simarillion when i read it, and it is great, really a great book. Read it and you'll love it.


----------



## fëanáro

remember that there is NOTHING BEHIND THE TEXT ON THE TOLKIEN BOOKS.

thats why it aint like the bible.


its a history book about the tolkien world.
a great book.


----------



## Grond

Compare something to the Bible and people come out of the wood work. The Silmarillion is the Bible of the Tolkien world. It is written in narrative form as is The Bible. It tells of the Genesis of Earth and the development of a people as does the Silmarillion. The Bible Old Testament is a history of the Tribe of Abraham and of his God (the only God). The Silmarillion is a history of the Gods and People of Middle-earth. The Bible New Testament is a history of the coming of the Messiah Jesus Christ. The Silmarillion takes us through three ages of Middle-earth and to the ultimate defeat of a great evil. 

Guys.... get with the picture. I was using the statement as an analogy, just as I did above. I did not say the Silmarillion was as good as the Bible, as important as the Bible or as read as the Bible. But neither is the Hobbit, LotR, Sil, UT, or HoMe just another fantasy book to me either. They are my escape world which I hope exists somewhere. One day I may take you there and then you'll see exactly of what I speak.


----------



## Merry

So Grond, are you disrespecting the bible? I'm horrified!  

I'M JOKING! 

Grond is right, the beginning of ME and the song of Eru is very much like the opening chapters of Genesis. The birth of the world and the children of god in the Sil can rightly be compared as a copy, or fantasy adaptation of the good book itself.

I too am Christian and I was amazed at how religious some of the imagery and scenes are in the Sil. This does not mean that the Sil belittles the bible, it is just an in-depth fantasy book.


----------



## telperion

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? You must remember! the bible is deep, the simarillion is not, is just confusing fairy tales, thats it. 
The bible has stuff in between lines (means that means more than it is written and more than u think it means). 
The simarillion means just what it is written. 
The bible is not mythical, its moral, ethical and personal; its not history! 
the simarillion is just history. 

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

do not , I repeat , do not believe this......

you christians are all the same are you.......

do unto others as as you do to yourself (or do not for that matter because you treat yourself so pour)

do not contempt a book because you honour yours............
a little respect , please
i respect the bible as i do the dictionary or any other word ....or syllamen or paragraph or letter or interpunction,,,,if you let me reinterpunct the bible , will become you god, believe (in) me


when you read the SIL , let your spirituality go along with the ride.....


----------



## Merry

???????????????

I am confused and getting mildly cross!!! I cannot put a price on the wisdom of the Bible and its meaning. It is a book inspired by God and holds the key for all of our futures and salvation. The Sil is a history book that can be used as a fantasy bible for those that want to delve into ME and Tolkiens world.

You cannot compare the two as the bible is real and the Sil is fantasy. PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT I KNOW THIS!!!!!!

What is your arguement? You have really lost me!


----------



## telperion

my fantasy is as real as i want it to be, 
any believer is in essence a disbeliever....

i am sorry to react in such a way , we should continue elsewhere, i know.

let's just conclude with advicing samwise to read it and to take with him as much or as few as possible..


----------



## Walter

Fëanáro,

if You make postings like those former ones please do not forget to mention that they represent Your personal point of view.

Being another catholic I wholeheartedly disagree with You because in my opinion the Silmarillion is pretty well comparable to the Old Testament and has about the same depth, intensity and overall quality. Notabene: "In my opinion"...

...oh and btw.: yelling a point (writing it in uppercase) doesn't make it any stronger or more valid...


----------



## Merry

I wasn't trying to be rude when I used uppercase, I just wanted to make my point clear. I realise it doesn't make me right!!


----------



## telperion

well , you weren't....


----------



## Merry




----------



## Grond

> _Originally posted by telperion _
> *well , you weren't.... *


That, dear telperion, is a matter of OPINION. And yes Walter, I yelled it. As Walter so clearly stated, the assertions of what the Sil is to any person is a matter of *personal opinion* and taste. So disagree with us in stating your opinion but don't portray that which is an opinion as fact.

BTW Merry, I agree with the assertion


----------



## Merry

It seemed the only thing to say at the time, I didn't feel like arguing anymore.

YAY SMILIES!!

Oops, I shouted!


----------



## telperion

how can you opnionate a truth , with all due respect 2 you grond, but merry states that the bible is real.christianity is real.
real as a culture , yes
now what are the features of such realness.....
(homo analyticus,ihate 2b)
1the existence of a truth in the form of a book.....

2a group of followers throughout an period of lenght ...(giving it authenticity)

3 the (foming )existence of a culture around their book...(created by discussion of its meaning)

(4 the writer of the book of books is preferably not able to anwswer) 

of course you get my drift... i analyse 2 much...

but you yourself said it ,grond , you hope that that middle earth is still somewhere or has been somewhere..i do too....

so how real are the two cultures ????the tolkien one is very real with me , everyday i look out for the appearance of elvish behaviour and try not to shamen myself when judged by the former on any moment of my day..which is my shot being here on earth.
but i can uderstand that the culture the messias told about could be 2....


and i want to add that much of the mystery i believe in of tolkiens world is taken down by every comparison of many visitors here..
i'm often very disappointed that so many (like thejoseph)just have to relate anything unknown to something of their surrounding ,and therefore safe, culture...
very typical modern day behaviour ...it's the same with our present-day trust in science...look around you and you will see that everyone must relate and explain everything they do not understand ..... 
Me , i love magic , am not afraid of the unknown, nor do i have disect it with theories of my own....when i defend myself it is always out of the idea of living in ME. ....in the fourth ERA that is.....Now tell me , in what era do you dare to live...
???????????????????????????????????????????????????


----------



## Merry

I think I understand your argument now!

Tolkiens world could be counted as 'real' because it is treat just as the bible is. What is the difference between the bible and ME as both have its followers and both books have believers?!

I see.........

I get your point now although I still disagree. I am not going to arrogantly say that you are wrong to believe in Tolkiens works as you can worship/ have faith in anything that you want to. That is the basic right of mankind afterall.

I hope I have understood your last post and I haven't made an idiot out of myself!!

If you want to discuss this further, start another thread and I will join that conversation.


----------



## telperion

thnx , for your understanding ....but i have no desire to "threadisize" everyone's filosophy in life , just because there could be no discussion about that.....

i would like to know ,however, how everyones love for tolkien became to xist to their status quo..but, manifestations have 2b stated , not debated...

i'm thinking of starting a thread theme but it all comes so close with what you personally do with the wisdom of the books , or even the wisdom of the elves ... and that's a bit of my fear also :i start to believe in elves , and that's just plain silly isn't it??????


----------



## fëanáro

well, all of you that have posted i wanna say that all points of view are valids.
no religion is the greatest or the right one.

when i write uppercase or exclamation points (!) i was just trying to note the importan points from my message, not trying to make it more valid than any of your messages and points of view.

I understand completely all the analogy (and i think everyone understands it) between bible and simarillion, and i wanted to make sure , or let me put it this way: as a catholic i felt obligated to tell you:
(maybe convince you, but not obligate you to belive me or to say im the one who is right)
analogies can be made with the bible, but we must not misunderstand that the Bible is deep and profound and has many meanings and is the basis (old testament many more) of the religions (3) of millions of people. Millions of people live by it and believe it means so many more things than you can imagine.

and here is when i tal about tolkien (my point of view): tolkiens world came from one mans head, it was one man´s dream and fulfillment, it was a fantasy some one created. Sure it is deep (not as the Bible , not even close) and has meanings and has lots of uses and sure the elfs are a race to admire and follow, i believe it is true. Everyone has the right to believe and follow what/who ever he/she wants to. 
but PLZ dont say tolkien´s planet is as deep as the Bible, coz I think you don´t know what you´re talking about.


----------



## Grond

fëanáro, I think one of the problems we are encountering in this thread is one of language. Apparently Spanish is your native language and I am not getting my message across. 

First, personally, I do not believe that The Silmarillion has any of the importance of the Bible. I am a Christian and the Bible is sacrosanct (holy! holy! holy!) to me. I was simply saying that what the Bible is to us on Earth, The Silmarillion is to the people of Middle-earth. Get it? The Bible is our real guide in our real world. The Silmarillion was the people of Middle-earth's biblical history of their fictional world. In this case...... real is definately more important than fiction.... but The Silmarillion is a very deep and thought provoking book from the perspective of Middle-earth just as the Bible is a very deep (yes deeper than the Silmarillion) and thought provoking guide for us on Earth.

I hope you understand the message. I never compared the Sil to the Bible in a "real" sense. I was just saying that it was a type of Biblical History of Middle-earth!


----------



## telperion

> _Originally posted by fëanáro _
> [
> but PLZ dont say tolkien´s planet is as deep as the Bible, coz I think you don´t know what you´re talking about. [/B]



????that's an contradiction in terms when you claim at the same time that everyone has the right to believe in everything they want...
does the word supremacy say anything to you??
and what if i believe in "the grain of sand" the holy one , grond.... would you consider me a fool?? when you refuse to see the synthesis of the whole plan even christianity becomes useless....
and weren't you the one grond that wished , a few posts ago , that ME was somewhere around? well what if it is ? will you all wake up and smell the coffee!!!wake up and know there is no truth...


----------



## Merry

This is turning into the X-Files....


----------



## telperion

no truth other than we make up for ourselves... 

(btw i'm thinking of scully as my virgin mary


----------



## Thorin

tel, if truth is relative, then I guess no one can tell me or you what is right or wrong...

That seems like an anarchistic philosophy to me. There is no right or wrong...no sin, therefore, no accountability or repentance necessary.

Society, therefore, has no right to dictate to me what I should or should not follow and I follow their laws simply out of convenience, not from a sense of right or wrong or morality's sake...

Is that the philosophy that you adhere to?


----------



## telperion

no nono, i do not .Simply because the anarchy statement forgets that we must share the little space we live in and we must have compromise....but most importantly , an anarchist would even object to a society that is correct and true to the anarchists heart...!!!an anarchist isn't even necessarliy an pacifist.
a truth can be absolute when an hunger is stilled for further truth...
even gandalf said to saruman;"one that breaks to see what it is has left the path of the wise."....
and i don't believe an anarchist would deal out of convenience ,do you?
and to deny moral is to deny we were once without conciousness i.e. animals...


----------



## Grond

Tel, apparently the difference in us is that I am grounded in my faith in God and His word. That is my spiritual base. It doesn't mean that my physical/non-spiritual side can't wish for a place that I am not sure my God hasn't created in another iteration.

We live on one plane and are grounded in the beliefs of that plane. Who is to say that my God hasn't created other planes.....yes, maybe even Middle-earth. My belief is that He is the God of Abraham here in this world, maybe he is Eru/Iluvator in another.


----------



## telperion

that's so judgemenatal of you i have never stated my beliefs anywhere , simply because you have never asked me , yuo on the other hand shout abraham in my face......phhhhh


----------



## Grond

tel, I apologize for offending you with my beliefs. I have edited my last post to amplify and explain "my beliefs" are not fact to anyone but me. The reason it came up was because someone else brought it up. The author of this thread is the one who questioned my analogy of the Sil to the Bible. If you don't like the direction the author of the thread is taking it, hit the road and find a thread to which you can make a meaningful contibution.

Shame on you for not being able to debate civilly. I did not shout Abraham in your face, I stated my belief. You don't like it, put me on your ignore list.


----------



## telperion

fist of all you did not offend me . you sais there was a difference between us whlie you do not even know what i stand for .......ever thought of that? apparently not. fact remains that christianity is thrown in my face every time...


----------



## fëanáro

Grond, you are totally right, maybe i went to far in my explanations but you made my point of view more clear.
i understood in your message that somehow everything is but at their leves. Bible with reality; and simarillion with fantasy(tolkien´s world). thats the point i tried to tell everyone when i talked about analogies with the Bible.

and yes i knew that maybe it was going to be a problem to put under "location:" MEXICO. but maybe a handicap. i dont try to use Mexico or spanish as a shield, but english is my second language and although i lived in Wisconsin for two years i dont have full dominion of the language, i try my best.

and Telperion i knew those last words i put in my thread about how i THOUGHT that you talking that way about the Bible showed how little idea you had about it. and i still believe it. anyway as you said anyone has the right to believe in anything he/she wants to. so don´t complain about that statement.

also silly of you for complaining about how everyone shout´s Christianity and also Abraham to your face because your complaining about (almost) 2/3 of the world's population and you'll always have to live with it because you´ll always have to deal with a christian, jew or muslim. anyway you have the right to complain about anything you want to, but i was just saying.


----------



## Samwise_hero

*Lost!*

OK guys just out of curiosity how did this discussio go from me trying to find out more about the Silmilarion to the Bible To the X-files. 
I'm not trying to dis the Bible because i hate it when people do that. I'm a Christian myself. 
I believe Tolkien had to be the best ever writer and all but i don't see how his book can be anything like the Bible. 
The silmilarion is Fantasy, someone's or many peoples dream. But he Bible is the truth and nothing else. Not fantasy not lies, the complete and utter truth.


----------



## Beleg Strongbow

*How many times have you read the Sil and what age are you?*

How many times have you read the Silmarillion? I've read it bout 27 times. And how old are you? I'm 14.


----------



## DGoeij

I don't think the complete and utter truth is in any writing. 
No offence meant to those who use the Bible for gaining insight and wisdom, but it is a story, written down by humans, mostly used in an admirable way, sometimes used in a very bad way.

one could use the Bible to explain the nature of te Sil, like Grond did, but there's no need to go in any deeper than that.


----------



## Grond

*Re: Lost!*



> _Originally posted by Samwise_hero _
> *OK guys just out of curiosity how did this discussio go from me trying to find out more about the Silmilarion to the Bible To the X-files.
> I'm not trying to dis the Bible because i hate it when people do that. I'm a Christian myself.
> I believe Tolkien had to be the best ever writer and all but i don't see how his book can be anything like the Bible.
> The silmilarion is Fantasy, someone's or many peoples dream. But he Bible is the truth and nothing else. Not fantasy not lies, the complete and utter truth. *


Apparently, you haven't read the content of the posts Samwise_hero. If you had, you would have known that I wasn't comparing the Bible to the Sil in a spiritual sense, simply stating that the Sil is a biblical history of Middle-earth in a similar way to the Bible being a biblical history of the people of the God of Abraham. 

I have stated that I am a Christian and that the Bible means more to me spiritually but the Sil is none the less a similar type document. He who argues differently is looking at the works with blinders.

BTW Samwise-hero, welcome to the forum.


----------



## Walter

*So, what is the Silmarillion about?*

I think it is quite evident, that Tolkien has been influenced by many an "Epos of Old" when he was writing his own mythology that have become the Tales of the First and Second Age of Arda and have been published mainly in the _Silmarillion_, the _Unfinished Tales_ and the _Lost Tales_. 

Early in his childhood, Tolkien had already been fascinated by languages, he started to "invent" his own secret languages pretty early and later he has shown interest in almost every language he came across, first the "classical" languages Greek and Latin, but also French, German and Norse, and later he became greatly interested in Old and Middle English as well as Welsh. And - of course - he was reading, what was written in those "Old languages": poems and/or some form of mythology. Hence he has been studying the finnish _Kalevala_, the nordic _Edda_ (The Poetic or Elder _Edda_ as well as the Prose or Younger _Edda_), Old and Middle English poems (like the _Crist of Cynewulf_, where he gathered the idea for his Eärendil, or the _Beowulf_) as well as the more "familiar" German-Mythology (the _Nibelungen-Saga_), Greek-Mythology, and the Christian-Mythology as it is found in the _Old Testament_.

All of these can be found - more or less clearly visible - in his works and since _The Bible_ or more precisely _The Old Testament_ - in the mind of a christian - usually represents such an epos containing Tales or Mythology of Old it is easier to say "Well the _Silmarillion_ is something like _The Bible_ in Tolkiens world". Which usually does not imply that _The Bible_ in this context is meant as "The Reference Epos for Christian Religion" but more "A widely known book that tells "Tales of Old"


----------



## fëanáro

Dgoeij when you said that the Bible is written by men you were right , but for us believers it was written by men inspired by the Holy Ghost (who is actually GOD), so it holds the truth. Many people believe that God wrote it through men. So that´s why it is for the believers a book of truth.

juts wanted to make that clear.


----------



## telperion

do you question your truths? i make out of your posts feanaro that you follow and swallow too much...
be humble and learn so much more...


----------



## fëanáro

telperion what did u mean with "do you question your truths?"
and whad did u mean with "you follow and swallow too much"?

and where did i show no humbleness? 
i thought i was quite open minded even with religious isues.


----------



## Firiel

*Back to the origional question...*



> _Originally posted by Samwise_hero _
> *I just finished reading the lord of the rings and i started the silmillarion but i just can't get into it. What's it all about *



Getting back to the origional post...

If you are having trouble with the Silmarilion but are curious, I would advise reading it *backwards*.

Start with "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age". It will draw you in by giving you more information about what you already know, and begin getting you used to the narative voice, (which is very different from the voice you find in a novel!)

Then read the Akallabeth. This is stuff that was hinted at in LotR, and is alluded to more in "Of the Rings of Power and the Thrid Age". This is the tale of the Downfall of Numenor.

Then you can go back to the beginning read (or re-read) the Ainulindale and the Valaquenta, but don't expect to be able to keep all the names strait yet! (Lots of names, and the more important the character, the more names they have, in vairous languages....). You can always re-read this later.

By now it should be easier to start on the Silmarilion proper.

Don't expect to absorb everything the first time through... don't worry, there's no quiz at the end. And after you get through it once, it's easier the next time you read it.


----------



## DGoeij

No offence meant Fëanáro, I just stated my opinion, I can respect someone for using the Bible as a guideline, I just do not wish so myself.

Firiel, reading the last chapters first is a great idea. It will make the connection with LOTR more evident and the understanding of the first chapters a little more easy. I haven't done it myself but I can see the good thinking in it.


----------



## Merry

DGoeij

I agree with your signiture, make beer, not war! I have stopped commenting on others beliefs as it just starts conflict.


----------



## telperion

for one , you say that "many people believe_____so that's why" that's swallowing ....and you have underrated the SIL in respect to your book , that's not humble to my opinion....


----------



## fëanáro

Dgoeij no offense taken. I Try not to take every opinion different than mine as an offense, with some exceptions.

Telperion, yes i said "many people believe.... so that´s why ...for the believers...." I was talking in plural and I considered myself among those "believers". If you question the truth in that statement ask any christian or catholic priest about it. 

And I stated that when Dgoeij wrote what he thought about the Bible and how he thought it was written by men as any other book. I just tried to tell him what I heard at Sunday´s mass ( where [my religion´s] believers go). They always say "the word of the Lord" or something like that.

And sorry about underrating the Silmarillion, I never meant to be disrespectful. Within my beliefs the Silmarillion is beneath the Bible because the weight (meaning not the actual physical weight) that the Bible carries for me and many many other people.

Again, it doesn´t mean the Bible is better written or anything like that, nor that I don´t respect Tolkien and his works.(Because I do). It´s just that I believe the Bible is deeper and has many more meanings than the Silmarillion and that worldwise it is more important and many other reasons I´ve said before.

I´ve said I love the Silmarillion and that I don´t think it is a moral or ethical book, although for many people it is. I´ve said my reasons and I´m tired of arguing it over and over. 

Sorry If I´ve shown no respect for any of your messages, but wasn´t my intention. I tried to be persuassive and convincing with my statements but i guess I pushed it over a little and I failed. At the end I just kept trying to defend my point of view but keeps being questionable and I guess it is because it just is, and that´s the nature of what we have argued about all these days.

I just wanna make peaces with everyone.


----------



## Mighty Sam

*I don't wanna sound like an idiot but what is the silmarillian about???*

well i was wondering, cause i don't have the book what the silmaillian is about?? thanx


----------



## Thorondor

First I would say to look in the Silmarillion section of this board, there probably is a thread there about this already. Secondly I would think a Mod could move this thread there (as that is the rightfull place for it). And thirdly the question. . .
The Silmarillion is a history of the Creation of Middle-earth, and the waking of Elves and Men. Mostly focused on the Elves though. It is a excellent read(I just finished it again this afternoon) and explains many useful things brought up in the LotR, such as who is Sauron, Beren and Luthien Tiniuvel, what a balrog is, and also the general histories of people like Elrond, Galadriel, Celeborn, and their family histories. Hope that helps!


----------



## telperion

pieces of peace , i like that one


----------



## Tyaronumen

Humans would do good to remember that whether you believe in the Christian model of the Universe or some other model, the very world upon which we live remains but a speck of sand on the beach of existence, much less those of us who inhabit this speck.

The human brain is a wonderful thing -- exceptional in it's capabilities. The rational framework that has been carefully crafted from the days of the Greek philosophers has aided greatly in our understanding of the natural world and in our ability to manipulate this natural world.

However, the human mind is limited in it's ability to comprehend. One of the clearest indicators of this is in the tendency of humans to label things... for instance if I say the word:


tree



An image comes to your mind of what we consider a tree... But there is a vast difference between the intellectual concept of 'tree' and an ACTUAL living, breathing entity, throbbing with life and vibrancy. No words can ever truly describe the _experience_ of being with this thing, which we call a tree. It must be done.

Likewise all of our concepts of God... the Bible, the Silmarillion, the Koran (no offense to any by putting the Sil in such vaunted company...), these are all differing ways of interpreting that which is unknown to mortal men, and is likewise in many ways unknowable. There is a huge difference between the intellectual concept of the first sextillionth second of existence and the actual event of the first sextillionth second of existence... this difference is the gap between experience and between description. The mind as it currently exists in almost all human beings (certainly may be exceptions) is incapable of truly comprehending EVERYTHING about even a single object, because things are happening at the micro and macro-molecular scales that are beyond the human ability to observe. Even as we learn more and more with our scientific tools, the only thing we are really discovering is that each answered questions raises two more questions of increasing complexity.

Ah well. Sorry to lay down such heavy concepts with these poor words.


----------



## Fingolfin

Ai. I must say that I have never read the Silmarillion more than 4 times at most. I do enjoy picking it up and just reading random chapters however. I more involved with learning the elvish languages. I'm 14 years old. 
By the way, Beleg Cuthalion is one of my favorite characters. You have good taste.


----------



## DGoeij

Wow, to quote another great piece of work: 'There is no spoon.'

Samwise, read the Sil, have fun, and use the advise from Firiel, last chapters first.


----------



## Brown Ribbon

*Re: What is it about*



> _Originally posted by Samwise_hero _
> *I just finished reading the lord of the rings and i started the silmillarion but i just can't get into it. What's it all about *



Samwise
to answer your question (since you seem to have unwittingly started a holy war here  ), The Silmarilion is very much what you make it.

I have read The Lord of the Rings twenty or more times, and every single time I swear I'm going to make a start on the Sil, but, until I while ago I'd be snoozing before the end of the first chapter.

I don't claim any religious allegiance, the opening of the Sil, is, to me necessary background material. Any similarities to the bible are incidental, though I concede that to someone who takes joy from the bible the opening chapter of the Sil may awaken keener interest.

The thing is, if you just want a cracking story, then you do get it in the Sil. For me, it really starts when the elves come to Middle Earth. It takes a while, but you do have to get through the first bit to know who they are, why they're there, what odds they're up against and why they don't always get along with each other.

Once they get to Middle Earth we see them building the great elven realms, being assailed by Morgoth, Balrogs, Dragons and all.

The thing about the Sil is that it doesn't paint the elves out to be nearly as wise and good as they are in LOTR. They make mistakes, some of them are downright nasty, and the tales of Men in the Eldar days are also worth reading.

Honestly, just struggle through it for a couple of hours, I bet you'll change your mind

cheers


----------



## Merry

*Re: Re: What is it about*



> _Originally posted by Brown Ribbon _
> *
> 
> Any similarities to the bible are incidental, though I concede that to someone who takes joy from the bible the opening chapter of the Sil may awaken keener interest.
> 
> *



I don't well up with religious pride when I read the Sil, it was just a way of illustrating the style of it. I (and Grond) could possibly have used a History book to describe it but I felt that referring to it as the bible would have made the point clearer.

I am finding the Sil fascinating because it sets the scene for LOTR. I agree that LOTR should be read first.  

Tyaronumen, interesting post!!


----------



## Brown Ribbon

*Re: Re: Re: What is it about*



> _Originally posted by Merry _
> *
> 
> I don't well up with religious pride when I read the Sil, it was just a way of illustrating the style of it. I (and Grond) could possibly have used a History book to describe it but I felt that referring to it as the bible would have made the point clearer.
> 
> I am finding the Sil fascinating because it sets the scene for LOTR. I agree that LOTR should be read first.
> 
> Tyaronumen, interesting post!! *



I'm not suggesting that, Merry, please accept my apologies if that's how my comments seem. I'm not trying to bash anyone's faith, nor even to comprehend it as it is a deeply personal thing.

I do believe there are parallels between The Beginning of Days and Genesis that one more learned in the Bible than I, might derive greater interest from


----------



## telperion

ok , most defenitly agree with tyrannumen here. He took up the fathoming of the brain, or it;s feeble attempt thereof.....but to me the mystery seems closer and is already there in the word "tree"
the only science we can reach out to is the science of our language...i think therefor i speak... and the one thing we all have in common here is the love of the combination of words of tolkien...i "believe"(i speak so i subject myself to the first mystery of mankind's irrationality)that we must not , at least fo now, seek farther for the thing that makes us love these words.For me it was the words in the first place, second reason was that i was fourteen when i read it ,third, i read first the hobbit then LOTR and then SIL and then LT,UT HOME LOB ADVOTB etcetcetc..and the weather that day was nice , i don't know , and may be the bible was read that beautiful day too by someone else...the question is:who will be more likely to survive no matter what but if something happens...


----------



## fëanáro

who what?
what do u mean when u say who?
what would happen?

the way u stated your question brought me some confusing ideas.


----------



## telperion

who of us ... i mean a mouse or a giant or a bug perhaps...or u or me for that matter


----------



## fëanáro

only GOD knows , i think


----------



## Beleg Strongbow

> _Originally posted by Fingolfin _
> *Ai. I must say that I have never read the Silmarillion more than 4 times at most. I do enjoy picking it up and just reading random chapters however. I more involved with learning the elvish languages. I'm 14 years old.
> By the way, Beleg Cuthalion is one of my favorite characters. You have good taste. *




Me too!       Same as Fingolfin


----------



## Beleg Strongbow

> _Originally posted by Thorondor _
> *First I would say to look in the Silmarillion section of this board, there probably is a thread there about this already. Secondly I would think a Mod could move this thread there (as that is the rightfull place for it). And thirdly the question. . .
> The Silmarillion is a history of the Creation of Middle-earth, and the waking of Elves and Men. Mostly focused on the Elves though. It is a excellent read(I just finished it again this afternoon) and explains many useful things brought up in the LotR, such as who is Sauron, Beren and Luthien Tiniuvel, what a balrog is, and also the general histories of people like Elrond, Galadriel, Celeborn, and their family histories. Hope that helps! *





Read the book . It is a great vast work definitelty worth reading!!!! :


----------



## telperion

who?


----------



## fëanáro

mm, sorry......ERU for you. only ERU knows.


----------



## bunnywhippit

*yay sil!*

I'll second that! It's an utterly beautiful, magnificent work of words. It expands your knowledge completely and suddenly LOTR takes on so much more meaning. Excellent


----------



## telperion

well, not exactly ... it's more like they both -can- not care...


----------



## Fingolfin

Lol, if you ask me, Thingol went wrong somewhere raising Turin.... That man just had killed to many people! Blame it on rage and madness they do... Beleg should not have ended by Turin. That's a sad part.


----------



## Beleg Strongbow

> _Originally posted by Fingolfin _
> *Lol, if you ask me, Thingol went wrong somewhere raising Turin.... That man just had killed to many people! Blame it on rage and madness they do... Beleg should not have ended by Turin. That's a sad part. *




It is. Beleg was Turin best freind and one of his ownly friends.


----------



## Eärendil

*How many times I've read it?*

I've read the Silmarillion about 4 times and I'm 28. If you can get through the first 50 pages the first time then it becomes very enjoyable. The second and third times were great. GREAT BOOK!


----------



## Fingolfin

Same. At first I was a bit daunted by the book, at that time I new little about the elves and all the new info was almost overwhelming. But after the first 40-50 pages or so, it was great!


----------



## Elbereth

I must agree...The Simarillion is a wonderful novel. I just finished reading it two nights ago...very compelling stuff. I give it two thumbs up!!!


----------



## Khamul

I hate to say it but ive only read it once because i couldn't find it in my library until i found it in my school library


----------



## legolaslove3791

Well, I've only read it once also. It took a while to get past the first bit, then it got pretty good. I definitely will read it again, but I have some other books in line first. I'm 14.


----------



## Kit Baggins

I'm 15, and I'm reading the Sil for the first time. I tried reading it when I was about 13, got to about page 20 and gave up in utter confusion  .

~Kit


----------



## Orome

The first part is a little more confusing the rest. It gets a little easier later on and starts to flow better once the background is set up.


----------



## Merry

I'm 23 and have read it once. In fact, I only finished it last week!! It is a great book but very difficult to read. I will read it again after I finish LOTR again.

I may try the UT soon!


----------



## Tulidian

I'm fifteen and I've only read it once. I just got it a little while ago, but I can't wait to read it again after I finish this stupid school book im reading.


----------



## Hama

I picked up the Silmarillion rather late, at about 14 or 15, and I am 18 now. I've read it so many times I've lost count. I would estimate between sixteen and twenty-five times.


----------



## Wood Elf

More than halfway through, 1st time, and I'm 18. I had to put it down awhile, due to schoolwork, but shall resume again soon! Quite an intricate piece of work, but fills in oh so many details. I have a whole new respect for Galadriel, man has she seen a lot, and been through a lot! Whew! Ai! (I like saying that, ai! How is that pronounced?)


----------



## Bucky

>>> If you can get through the
first 50 pages the first time then it becomes very enjoyable. The second and
third times were great. GREAT BOOK!

I concure.
I read it 3 times before I had a clue what was going on.....

I had just finished The Hobbit & TLOR for the 1st or 2nd time, & had no idea the Silmarillion was coming out (16 at the time). My Mother brought it to me in early 1978 while I was in the hospitol recovering from knee surgery.

I guess I've read it 25 times, same as the other 4 books. 
I start just the way Tolkien released them: Hobbit, TLOR, Silm.
When I get to the longer narratives on Tour & Turin from UT, I switch to those stories & then go back to The Silm.
I wish Toklien had had the time to write the whole book on the detailed level of those 2 stories. They're much more like TLOR & The Hobbit & less like the breif 'historical' accounts in the published Silmarillion.


----------



## Niniel

I'm 22, and I've just finished the Silmarillion for the first time. I didn't find it confusing at all, although the foreword by Christopher Tolkien warned that there 'was not to be looked for complete consistency'. My brother though is reading it as well (he's 16') and he does think there are too many confusing names in it.


----------



## Bucky

Don't forget that back in 1977-78, we didn't have sites like this; we were on our own.

And, we were all stoned back then......


----------



## Thorondor

I'm 20 and I have read it three times(in the last year).


----------



## Maedhros

Well, I´m actually thousands of years old and i have read it only once. I couldn´t get past the part when i threw myself in the "chasm of fire" at the end.


----------



## Varda

I'm 16 and I've read it once--I'm planning on reading it as many times as I can but I have a few other books (such as the long and arduous Don Quixote) I want to read also--I want to be somewhat diverse in my literary experiences


----------



## Camille

I am 25 and I have read it completelly 3 times, but I am always reading some chapters so I have to say many times!!!


----------



## UngattTrunn475

I'm reading it right now, and I'm 11.


----------



## Legolam

I finished the Sil for the first time about a month ago (I'm 19) and I'm now ploughing through UT (ha I'm beating you, Merry!), although I think I might go back and read the Sil again because I've forgotten everything that happened. Also, people seem to be saying that it gets easier to understand it, so I should give it another shot.


----------



## tasar

I'm 17 and I've read it twice. Right now I'm reading the UT and it's different cause I'm actually trying to read it in English (which is not my native language, if anyone doesn't know).


----------



## Gamil Zirak

I've only read the Sil once. In fact, I just finished it in March. I didn't realize that such a book existed until last June. I'm 22 now.


----------



## Aldanil

I just finished rereading The Silmarillion for the third time last week during my school's spring break. I'm forty-seven now, and got a hardcover copy of the first edition as a Christmas present from my favorite aunt nearly twenty-five years ago.


----------



## Istar

I'm 15. I'm about halfway through 1st time - I just finished the chapter "Of Maeglin" and I find occasionally I have to refer to the index/glossary in the back. That's probably because I read maybe a page every day between classes and on the bus.


----------



## Eldanor

I'm 16 and I've read it about 6 or 8 times, or more, I don't remember very well. I REALLY would like to read the UT (Can anybody tell me what are those tales about?). 
The Sil is incredible. It's like an elvish chronicle of the earth, from the beginning of the beginning to the end of the 3rd age. It's "dense", compared with LOTR. I always see something new on it.


----------



## tasar

> _Originally posted by Eldanor _
> * I REALLY would like to read the UT (Can anybody tell me what are those tales about?). *



UT is about the same thing as the Sil and the LotR, it simply gives extra information abot some stuff. I haven't really got to the end yet myself.


----------



## elvish-queen

*Did anone else find the Sil slightly confusing??*

The title says it all!
I finished the Sil 2 nights ago, but I found it slightly confusing. Time moves so fast, and one whole elf life takes up a chapter or less! And then there's the lines, "and that one married this one and had these children, and the children married those ones and had these children but that one died in this war / battle / friendly game with orcs........."
Quite confusing if you ask me!
Are you supposed to remember all that when you've finished the book, or do I need to study more???
I found the part about the 4th age and the battle of the ring helpful, though, it kinda summarises LotR...


----------



## Úlairi

I didn't have too much trouble with the Sil, I quite enjoyed it. elvish-queen, if you want to make big posts and such like Grond, Ancalagon, Maehdros, Greenwood, Bucky (sometimes, and those whom I have forgotten speak now or forever hold your peace) and I then you will have to remember it fairly well in answer to your question. I never found the Sil confusing but I suppose that's just me.


----------



## Rangerdave

*I'll admit it*

The Sil confused the dogsnot out of me the first time I read it. For my defense, I tried to do the academic "scan it" technique. Bad idea.
When I had time to read it again at leisure, it all made perfect sense. So my advice would be to take it slow and make sure you don't skip over anything important.

RD


----------



## Hirila

elvish-queen: 


> "and that one married this one and had these children, and the children married those ones and had these children but that one died in this war / battle / friendly game with orcs........."



You think this is confusing? Ha! 
That's nothing in comparison to the Bible! Read the books Genesis and Exodus and you will find much, much, much... more stuff of that kind than you can imagine! I once tried to read the Bible from beginning to the end, no way you gonna do it. You'll stop at the prophets if not much sooner. 
The Sil is an adventure almost as great as the Bible but luckily much more easier written and readable!


----------



## Úlairi

> _Originally posted by Hirila _
> *elvish-queen:
> 
> 
> You think this is confusing? Ha!
> That's nothing in comparison to the Bible! Read the books Genesis and Exodus and you will find much, much, much... more stuff of that kind than you can imagine! I once tried to read the Bible from beginning to the end, no way you gonna do it. You'll stop at the prophets if not much sooner.
> The Sil is an adventure almost as great as the Bible but luckily much more easier written and readable! *



No need to have a go at her Hirila. The Bible is a lot more confusing than 'The Silmarilion', but what in Eru's name does that have anything to do with this thread?


----------



## Hirila

Sorry, didn't want to go at anyone!

I just wanted to say that the Sil for me wasn't as confusing as for others. I think there are books you will even stop reading because you don't know what you're in. E.g. the Bible, or Ulysses, too. Great books. But I know noone who ever read them to the end. It is much easier to read the Sil.

And Ulairi: I responded to the fact that elvish-queen thought the Sil so confusing. I only gave my opinion on that point. I'm sorry, if anyone understood that as an attack.


----------



## Úlairi

> _Originally posted by Hirila_
> *And Ulairi: I responded to the fact that elvish-queen thought the Sil so confusing. I only gave my opinion on that point. I'm sorry, if anyone understood that as an attack.*



My apologies Hirila. I also did not find the Sil confusing as I posted above. Your opinion is valid and I apologise for my misinterpretation of your post.


----------



## ¤-Elessar-¤

Wanna try something really confusing? Try reading the Sil until you understand it, then wait about a week, and go to the book store. Buy copies of the Books of Lost Tales. These are the orriginal writings that were turned into the silmarillion. The names of everything is switched around, and... just a really big headache, a really big one.


----------



## Úlairi

That is exactly what I did Elessar, and I couldn't agree more. The main writings of Tolkien are completely distorted by the first few chapters of the book. That is a really big headache. Grond suggests that those who wish to read HoME should read the books backwards, from Volume 12 to Volume 1.


----------



## Hirila

I'm still stuck in the second volume of the Book of Lost Tales. I can't make myself read more at the moment. But that's right. The BoLT is confusing if you try to read it as prequel to all what comes later. 
My trick to make it more understandable is to read it not with the original (or rather the later) names in mind but with a map in front of you. This way you have a real picture of what is happening where. You can imagine that much easier than some names to which you don't have a face.


----------



## elvish-queen

Ok, so I'm just dumb! 
I never thought I was dumb, but now all is revealed... I'm only 14, and I never really planned to read the bible this year at least.
I suppose I'll read the sil again (not right now with my concussion) but maybe I shouldn't bother if I'm so stupid!
   
My teachers don't tell me I'm stupid....
*runs out crying*


----------



## elvish-queen

Sorry, I really am a bit cranky, I fell off a horse yesterday and have quite bad concussion and am bruised sore and stiff.
Sorry if I was mean... I didn't mean it...
I'm not a mean person. 
Sorry.


----------



## Hirila

Now don't be silly!
Just spend more time here and with the books and soon you will even impress ReadWryt with your knowledge about all that concerns ME. And let that Bible stuff out of here. I know it was a real stupid example. Forget it. Forget everything except ME. Only that matters!


----------



## ¤-Elessar-¤

lol, yes, backwards might work. I just have to find the last books, you'd be surprised how hard it is to find good literature here in Arkansas...


----------



## Úlairi

> _Originally posted by elvish-queen _
> *Ok, so I'm just dumb!
> I never thought I was dumb, but now all is revealed... I'm only 14, and I never really planned to read the bible this year at least.
> I suppose I'll read the sil again (not right now with my concussion) but maybe I shouldn't bother if I'm so stupid!
> 
> My teachers don't tell me I'm stupid....
> *runs out crying* *



Hey, at least it's better than you teachers keeping you in after lesson when you want to go to lunch so badly and they sit there telling you how brilliant you are for 20 or so minutes. And all your thinking about is taking a bite of the succulent sandwich that your mother so carefull prepared for you. It was my first day back and my Geography teacher talks to me after the lesson about my ;evel of intelligence and how my work is of University standard and yarda, yarda, yarda.


----------



## Prince Legolas

I'm 20 and I'm in the process of reading the Sil. for the first time. I'm just over halfway through and enjoying it very much.


----------



## ReadWryt

How many times have I read the Silmarillon? I think alltogether, if you count all the myriad times I simply started out to look for a particular passage to find an answer to some question and ended up getting sucked into it for 20 or 30 pages more, I've read it 6 times...as for what age I am, why...Fourth Age of course silly, nobody is still alive from the Third Age!


----------



## Goldberry

I'm older than dirt but I've only read it twice. I marvel at how many times some folks have read it.


----------



## Rangerdave

Show off


RD


----------



## Úlairi

> _Originally posted by Rangerdave _
> *
> Show off
> 
> 
> RD *



Sorry shouldn't have posted that. It will raise a few eyebrows and people will think that Ulairi is once again off on his high horse. What I posted was true however, yet I did not really wish to sound proud, and I suppose it comes across that way.


----------



## Hirila

Hey, why not show off a bit. 
 
This is what I cannot understand: That you hardly can be proud of what you have achieved without being called a show-off by others.  

I want to show that I have achieved something with the work I did. Why can't we just accept it that others have earned their praise?


----------



## Rangerdave

Yeah! what he said.

If you got it, flaunt it

RD


----------



## Úlairi

> _Originally posted by Hirila _
> *Hey, why not show off a bit.
> 
> This is what I cannot understand: That you hardly can be proud of what you have achieved without being called a show-off by others.
> 
> I want to show that I have achieved something with the work I did. Why can't we just accept it that others have earned their praise? *



Yes, but one can't be too proud. I have learnt that the hard way.


----------



## Hirila

Sorry if you had had bad experiences with showing you're proud of yourself, I had, too. 
And that's exactly why I don't like this habit of rebuking those who want to show the world, that they achieved something. I know many will find this not so good, but I do. When I did something right, when I did something really well I want to tell it and want people to tell me I did it fine. And I do the same if someone tells me how proud he is of this or that.


----------



## Rangerdave

*I guess I should explain*

You have to understand my slightly odd sense of humor.

I only call someone a show off when they have performed or demontarted something rather spectacular. Especially if it is something that I personally find dificult or imposible.

So a tip for all those out there on understand Davelish (Dave's English) When I say "showoff" you hear "good job".

I guess Its kind of like the diference between American Cookies and English Biscuists.


RD


----------



## Hirila

And you're bringing in Ozzie Donuts! 

We got you.


----------



## Diabless

Just started reading it after reading LOTR twice in a row.
I am on page 73, Of the Darkening of Valinor. It's fascinating!


----------



## Anarchist

To get back to the point of this thread, I also found The Silmarillion a bit confusing. I started reading it carefully in order to remember all the names. But at a point, I started forgetting a lot of things. Thank God there is a list of names at the end of the book. I admit I had difficulties understanding where on ME the map was placed and what was its relation with the maps in the LOTR.


----------



## Úlairi

Some people have told me in the past that in order to remeber the names of certain characters they wrote them down and gave a small description of them. So, when a name popped up that they didn't remember, they went and looked the name up where they had written it down. I thought that that was a brilliant idea.


----------



## Nom

*hey!*



> _Originally posted by elvish-queen _
> *Ok, so I'm just dumb!
> I never thought I was dumb, but now all is revealed... I'm only 14, and I never really planned to read the bible this year at least.
> I suppose I'll read the sil again (not right now with my concussion) but maybe I shouldn't bother if I'm so stupid!
> 
> My teachers don't tell me I'm stupid....
> *runs out crying* *



You don't need to feel that you're stupid. There's _no way_ that any of these guys didn't feel some confusion when they *first* read TS. The first time *anyone* opens that book and begins _'The Ainulindale'_ - confusion is experienced. You're not alone, we were all there once. Read it again, it gets easier.


----------



## Turgon

That's true Nom. I felt the same when I first read the Sil - especially in the earlier parts. The more you read it though the better it gets - until finally you'll think it's the greatest thing you've ever read... The depth and scope - the ironies and tragedies. It takes a few readings - but it's well worth it...


----------



## Nom

*Intricacies...*

Absolutely Turgon. If you want to understand the intricacies and the background of Lord of The Rings, it's a must-read. But it's not easy. First time I read it (or attempted it) I, too, was 14. It took me several tries to get through _The Ainulindale_. But get through I did, and was richly rewarded. I've had many people from many different walks of life express the same thing. Even the professor at the college where I did my Grad. dip. Ed. expressed that he was initially frustrated with the style of _The Ainulindale_.
I just don't believe that somebody could coast through it and _not_ find that confusing/frustrating.


----------



## Úlairi

What was your degree for Norn?


----------



## Nom

*What did I do?*

I have two degrees and a Graduate diploma of Education. The degrees are in English Literature, and Drama. The Grad. dip. Ed. is in English/Drama/English Lit., with minors in History and Physical Education.
Currently I'm working in ESL training in Japan...


----------



## Hirila

To tell the truth... I was not confused when I read the Ainulindale.

I don't know why. I think I simply didn't expect something "normal". I started the book and saw it began with some sort of creation. And why should this creation be intelligible?

I know this sounds crazy, in fact I think I am crazy, but that is the way and the reason I began the Sil. And I seriously enjoyed it. Including all its "confusion" I never really perceived.


----------



## Turgon

It's not so much that the Ainulindale is confusing first time around - as a creation myth it makes as much sense as any other - more that it's hard to fully understand straight away. There are passages in it which refer to future events - The Third Theme of Iluvatar for instance...


> ... It seemed at last that there were two musics progressing at one time before the seat of Iluvatar, and they were utterly at variance. The one was deep and wide and beautiful, but slow and blended with an immeasurable sorrow, from which its chief beauty came. The other had now achieved a unity of its own; but it was loud, and vain and endlessly repeated; and it had little harmony, but rather a clamourous unison as of many trumpets braying upon a few notes. And it essayed to drown the other music by violence of its voice, but it seemed that its most triumphant notes were taken by the other and woven into its own solemn pattern


This passage in one broad sweep, fortells, amonst other things, The Long Defeat, The Joining of the Houses of the Eldar and the Edain, The Fading of the Elves and the Dominion of Men... which is not easy to pick up on on first reading...


----------



## Hirila

Sure you cannot interpret what you learn about the music when you read it for the first time. But you don't have to. It all comes when you read further on. 
I remember that when I first read that the first world the Vala had made was destroyed by Melkor I suddenly realised that this what had been told in musical themes in the Ainulindale. It was like waking up. Suddenly the themes were not only themes, were no music any more, were a myth. 
And myths tell stories in a mysterious way, don't they?  This simply makes them myths.


----------



## Nom

*Hmmmm....*

Then I think you must have tried it the first time as an adult, or if you did as a child, mayhaps in the joyous rapture that follows when reading the later chapters, you have forgotten the initial difficulties ...
No matter... a great read.


----------



## Hirila

That's right. I only read it when I was 15. Since then several times. And each times I find other details I did not notice before. This book, just all the other books by Tolkien, have so much to say that you can read them a hundred times and each time find something new in them. Fantastic!


----------



## Samwise_hero

i started reading it again and it's now more understandable. thanks for all your input i really appreciated it. thanks


----------



## Theoden

*Worth Reading?*

I am asking you bookworms if it is worth it... I have never read the Silmarillion, and am trying to decide if I should.


----------



## Rangerdave

Very much worth reading, but I should warn you that this is not a easy work and assuredly not a week-end read. But don't let that daunt you. If you have any questions feel free to post. There are some wonderfully helpful and knowlidgible people lurking around here.

RD


----------



## Walter

lurking, huh? 

But the Sil is definitely worth reading if you're interested in Tolkien's Middle-Earth, Theoden. And I agree with RD, you will enjoy it more, if you digest it in small doses...


----------



## Merry

*I'd call it 'sneaking'*

Please read it! It opens up Tolkiens works and LOTR becomes ever more real to you.

Enjoy.


----------



## DGoeij

If you wish to know more about ME and the background of some of the characters from LOTR it'surely worth reading. 
Personally the style in which it was written gave me some trouble, but reading it in small doses as RD and Walter said is definately the best way.


----------



## tasar

There is no way one should not read the Silmarillion. For me, it just goes with the Lotr like socks go with boots...
Imagine a Tolkien-fan who doesn't know who Luthien is? Or what on Middle-Earth are the Silmarils?


----------



## Theoden

Thanx you guys! This is great! I will go and buy is as soon as I can.


----------



## Grond

I've given this advice before but it still holds true. Read Of the Rings of Power first. It is more closely related to the LotR and will keep your interest as it is about a subject that is near and dear to your heart. Then move to the Akallabeth which gives the history of Numenor and explains the origins of the peoples who began the realms of Gondor and Arnor. I would then suggest you read the Quenta Silmarillion. It is filled with short stories about the First Age and explains how the world of Middle-earth came to be, the history of the Noldor (a branch of Elves aka Galadriel), and gives an accounting of the Higher powers of Middle-earth and the story of the first and greatest Dark Lord Melkor of whom Sauron was but a servant.

I would not tackle the first two books of the Silmarillion until the end. They read more like a biblical account and inundate you with names and histories that are hard to follow... but as everyone else has said... once you get going, you will love understanding the rhyme behind the reason. You'll understand why the Elves shout the name of "Elbereth Githoniel" when in danger. It will also give you hints as to the origins of orcs and trolls and dwarves. It is a must read.

BTW, first edition hardbacks of the Silmarillion are available on Ebay for as little as $10.00. It is well worth that and will be treasure to cherish.


----------



## Samwise_hero

Someone mentioned before that they hoped that Tolkien's world was real well it kind of is reall it's found in NZ! I didn't realize it for a while but NZ does fit the description of middle earth really well. i was in NZ a couple of months before the movie came out and it's so peaceful and ancient that it almost feels like middle earth. Freaky i know.


----------



## Flame of Anor

*Yes it is*

Yes it is worth reading. I just bought it and am somewhere between pg. 50 and 75 and so far it is pretty good.

-Flame


----------



## Mighty Sam

*kinda off subject buuut....*

 alright I want to know what book(s) is/are the best to read if I want read a more detailed narratives of: the Fall of Gondonlin, the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, the War of the Wrath, and basicly any extended tales of those in the Sil. alright got that all?? thanx for your help as always.


----------



## Aredhel

That's exactly what I did. I re-read it several times(the LOTR) and the Silmarillion 3 times. One time I read it in a week. I think it was the last time. But one day, I found a copy of the Sil, and I was looking at a map and I started crying because I was remebering when I read it that it was very, very sad. I highly recommend all Tolkien fans to read it.


----------



## Arrhia El.

How _can_ you perfer it to LotR, Smaegol?????????? I have tried reading it twice and have never got further than page 50. I know it contains lots of history of ME but I read LotR for enjoyment, and to be honest I found the Silmarrilion rather boring. I think going into the history of somewhere appeals to some people not others.


----------



## Tyaronumen

> _Originally posted by Arrhia El. _
> *How can you perfer it to LotR, Smaegol?????????? I have tried reading it twice and have never got further than page 50. I know it contains lots of history of ME but I read LotR for enjoyment, and to be honest I found the Silmarrilion rather boring. I think going into the history of somewhere appeals to some people not others. *



I also prefer it to the LotR... it subtlely reveals much about time, mortality, history, the perspective of past, present, and future, sorrow, and life that applies to mortal men. 

As other histories, it is a valuable source of understanding, both of ourselves and of those others in the past, and when history is pursued with the goal of personal understanding, it is extremely valuable -- if not necessarily extremely interesting.


----------



## Aranaug

If you want to appreciate LOTR more and appreciate how Tolkien came up with his own mythology more, read it. It answered two of my questions that I had while I was reading and after I read LOTR, What happened during the First Age. We knew a little about the Second Age with the growing power of Sauron and the Last Alliance of Men and Elves, but nothing about the First Age.


----------



## Aranaug

*How long did it take you to read THE SILMARILLION?*

I've read it once, this year actually, in a week. I had a lot of free time with no TV anywhere near me (aka I was in Canada on a fishing trip, and it was raining, A LOT).


----------



## Gil-Galad

I read it the whole book twice.But like Smeagol I jump from chapter to chapter cause I want to check some facts or to re-read some of my favourite parts of the book.By the way,Aranaug do you like fishing or not much?


----------



## Arrhia El.

I _might_ do. 
Tyar., I agree it applies to real history, but LotR history can hardly teach us much more about our own world than books like Oliver Twist, etc that are realistic to life in the past and quite a lot more interesting.


----------



## Aranaug

On the matter of fishing, I like fishing. But I have a thing against getting up in the morning when its already raining and going out to sit in a boat for the whole day in the rain even if I have a rain jacket. My fingers got numb a couple days in a row when we were there. And out of the seven days we were there, only one day did we not put on our rain gear. The power was also out for a day. Oh, and the toilets ran on electricity. So we had to hall water up a hill from the lake to flush the toilet. If it had not been for those circumstances, I probably would have gone out fishing more. 
But the book was good so it made the time not quite as bad.


----------



## HelplessModAddi

Must keep thread sane..... 
 
Must continue with pleasant discussion..... 
 
Must prevent Christian/atheist nuclear war.... 
 
Cannot think of anything interesting to say...


----------



## Gamil Zirak

It took me about 6 months to read it. I had other things going on (studying for the CPA exam and work), but I had a hard time finding the motivation and time to read it.


----------



## Beorn

Two weeks....my teacher gave us the option of reading whichever book we chose, but in two weeks...I didn't want to read it in two weeks, so, I was a bit upset with it...I'll reread it when I have some spare time.


----------



## Tyaronumen

> _Originally posted by Arrhia El. _
> *I might do.
> Tyar., I agree it applies to real history, but LotR history can hardly teach us much more about our own world than books like Oliver Twist, etc that are realistic to life in the past and quite a lot more interesting. *



Arrhia El, hope you won't take offense -- but I find Dicken's work, with the sole exception of 'Great Expectations' to be poorly written, overly wordy (he was paid by the word), and trite. His themes are unoriginal, and in my opinion, his fame undeserved. 

I found Oliver Twist to be rather boring and uninspired...

So it appears that our opinions vary greatly.

Anyhow, the LotR history isn't really 'about our own world', but Tolkien's scholarly perspective on a topic that IS more interesting to a lot of folks than our own worlds history provides an accessible -historical perspective- that is most useful when viewing our own history.


----------



## Khamul

It took me about a month. The first part of it I had to re-read 5 or 6 times before I was able to understand it more. That had to be the longest time I have ever taken on a chapter. At first I tried to read through it a pretty fair clip, but was later personally obliged to start over and read it at a slower rate for more of a complete knowledge of it.


----------



## Elfarmari

I think it took me four or five days the first time I read it. After reading through the whole thing I went back and went over parts that were more confusing or interesting; and since then I've read it at least 4 times


----------



## DWilss

I bought the Silmarillion just a few days ago and I'm nearing the half-way point. Were it not for the handy-dandy glossary in the back of the book containing elf names, lands, places, and various other things I believe I would have devoted a lot more time skimming backward through the text, it's saved me a lot of time.


----------



## Arrhia El.

I *am* highly offended (I see you sensed I was the offendable type!!!!!!!!!). Anyway, pehaps Dickens just wrote in a style that you're not used to reading. Yes, I know it is rather wordy but one thing you have to grant him is that the charcters are realistic. The books were, when written, an insight into the poverty that the rich chose to ignore and the real test of a book is how long it lasts. I think Dickens has lasted quite a long time already. To tell the truth I have'nt actually read that many Dickens and have stuggled through the ones I have read *BUT* I have been very glad I read them afterwards because they are the kind of books that stay with you (well perhaps not with you but with me anyway!!). 
Have you read 'Wuthering Heights'? If not I reccommend it. (Which probably means you should'nt read it considering you hate Dickens which I enjoy...)


----------



## Tyaronumen

> _Originally posted by Arrhia El. _
> *I am highly offended (I see you sensed I was the offendable type!!!!!!!!!). Anyway, pehaps Dickens just wrote in a style that you're not used to reading. Yes, I know it is rather wordy but one thing you have to grant him is that the charcters are realistic. The books were, when written, an insight into the poverty that the rich chose to ignore and the real test of a book is how long it lasts. I think Dickens has lasted quite a long time already. To tell the truth I have'nt actually read that many Dickens and have stuggled through the ones I have read BUT I have been very glad I read them afterwards because they are the kind of books that stay with you (well perhaps not with you but with me anyway!!).
> Have you read 'Wuthering Heights'? If not I reccommend it. (Which probably means you should'nt read it considering you hate Dickens which I enjoy...) *



*laugh* Well, your high offense belongs to you and none other  -- it is your responsibility to dispense it as you choose, and it will harm you and no other. Or you can choose to *not* be offended.  Either way, it really is up to you. I still *intend* no offense.

Actually, having double-majored in English & History, I believe that I have a pretty good (if not excellent) idea of the style of Dickens and his peers.

William Blake, Lewis Carroll, Oscar Wilde, Thomas Hardy, Rudyard Kipling, Emily Bronte and Mary Shelley all strike me as authors of the 19th century that were better than Dickens in all aspects of writing -- the crafting of plot, character, and the words themselves. 

You may feel that Dickens' characters are realistic -- and to a certain extent they are -- but having read around 15 of his books (jncluding such snorers as the Pickwick Papers, The Battle of Life, David Copperfield, Hard Times, A Tale of Two Cities, etc.), I know that my opinion of him IS educated -- if still only a personal opinion. And I know that the characters found in his books -- such as his protagonists in A Tale of Two Cities -- are very romanticized representations of real human beings, as are most novelized representations of people.

What do you mean "the true test of a book is how long it lasts"? I would have to note that the Bible has been around for some 2000 years -- and this had absolutely nothing to do with it's readers determining that it was great literature, or that it was a good read...

I would recommend that you read more Dickens -- I have read his books and have formed my opinion based upon a great amount of his work -- from the aforementioned Pickwick Papers (one of his earliest) through his last book (Edwin Drood). You are definitely welcome to your opinion (as are we all), but your endorsement of Dickens overall (as opposed to a specific book or two) would be better received if you had read more Dickens . . . 

Yes, I've read Wuthering Heights, and found it to be far deeper, far better written, and far more original than Dickens works.

It is a good thing to keep in mind that Dickens really *wasn't* the first news-hack to start writing weekly serials about the plight of the poor, and many of his themes are stolen wholesale from other news-serials of the day.

And to interpret my opinions of Dickens as "hate" is inaccurate, not to mention a far too simplistic analysis of my views.

First, I was stating that as a snapshot of a 'historical perspective', Dickens is horrible compared to Tolkien's work. Sure Dickens is ostensibly dealing with real world London, but all of his stories are encapsulated in a particular era in time, whereas Tolkien's works cross thousands of years. Far better for a European 'historical perspective' would be Gibbons' "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" which deals with the evolution of the Roman empire from the times of the Antonine Emperors all the way until the Fall of Constantinople to Mehmed the Conquerer in 1452. 

Secondly, I was merely stating that Dickens is a hack, and not a very good one at that... this doesn't mean that I "hate" him or his works -- I just don't think that they are especially high in quality.

Anyhow, I would recommend that you read any works by any of the authors that I list above -- in my personal opinion, almost anything these authors have written is of better quality and interest than the works of Dickens, with the exception of Great Expectations, which I think was the anomalous good book of Dickens' career.

Of course, neither you nor I will change our subjective opinions of Dickens based upon the subjective opinions of others, but I feel that a discussion like this can serve to, if nothing else, clarify the positions of two individuals while providing a platform for rational and interesting conversation. 

Cheers.


----------



## Tyaronumen

I also forgot to mention, because he is not really an "English" author... but an author who is IMHO better than ANY of the ones I mentioned in the last post (with the definite and sole exception of William Blake, who is a master!) is Fyodor Dostoevsky. 

Try out "Crime and Punishment" or "The Brothers Karamazov", either of which are superior books and easier to read than Dickens, IMHO. 

(In fact, there is a preponderance of Russian literature from the 19th century that is very very excellent... Chekhov is also a good read!)


----------



## mr underhill

*i need motivation to read this...*

come on give me encouragement...

i always get confused and put it down and ive had the book for about 4 months.


----------



## mr underhill

im gonna read this in a min...


----------



## Arrhia El.

I will try Dostoevsky, if I ever finish the book I'm on. And if I ever finish _that_ I will read more Dickens and esp. Great Expectations. (I actually always finish the books I read but it can take a long time.) 
But as for the Bible lasting 2000yrs and not because of being good literature thats different because it is (I think) true and affects people's lives which is why it has lasted. With stuff that is _just_ literature I stilll think the time-test is good.


----------



## Anarchist

Well it is indeed a difficult book but when you have finished it you will feel a deep satisfaction. Go on and read it and you will love it!


----------



## HelplessModAddi

Read the short stories first, and start with "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age." That way you can start with something interesting and directly relevant to LOTR. I suggest then reading the Akkallabeth, and then the Ainulindalie. Skip or skim the Valaquenta.


----------



## Rangerdave

But the Valaquenta is my favorite part. whenever the radical right wing elements quote bible at me for espousing evolution, I always quote the Sil back at them. It really messes with their minds. 

RD


----------



## Tyaronumen

Arrhia El -- "good literature" lasts because it effects peoples lives in ways that are significant.

The Bible may or may not be good literature, but it is mainly around because of the not-so-peaceful, often brutal efforts of the Church. This, of course, has absolutely nothing to do with the validity (or lack thereof -- I debate not the religion itself) of that which is contained within the book.

I think you'll like Dostoevsky -- and Great Expectations too.


----------



## Elu Thingol

I read at a pretty steady clip once I got started and it took me about 3 weeks.


----------



## LúthienTinúviel

*waves* Hi daddy! He he he. Just kidding. 

Well, it took me about a month to read the first five pages because school\exams etc were beating me into the ground, but once I actually sat down for more than five minutes to read it, it only took me a few days. I couldn't put it down. I can see why some people find it dry, but I was utterly absorbed. I haven't reread it straight through since then, but I am planning to soon. I write for another Tolkien site, so I reread large chunks of it a lot. It's an absolutely breathtaking creation. I prostrate myself before J.R.R. Tolkien.


----------



## Phenix

it took me about 4 days to read it 

(thats a long time for a book whit 360 pages)


----------



## Rasec

*The Author?!*

People, sorry for that question.. but WHO IS THE AUTHOR of the Silmarillion?? I heard someone says that it is not John Tolkien, but a relative of him.. I think Christopher Tolkien..
And then, what do u say?!? Im confused, cos i think it is John himself..

I'll be glad with your answer,
Cesar Filho.


"Julius Caesar was the Emperor of Rome... 
Cesar Filho is the Emperor of Middle-Earth."


----------



## Ponte

It took me one and a half week to read it.


----------



## Ponte

The stories were made by J.R.R Tolkien but it was made into a book by Christopher Tolkien.


----------



## DGoeij

Christopher Tolkien is JRR's son. He gathered all the notes, manuscripts etc after his father died. The Silmarrion is the result of putting the finished but never published stories about ME's pre-historic days together. 
The Unfinished Tales are something similar, but concern single events of which the professor had numerous versions written, mostly never completely finished. Or thoughts about how certain things should fit in the 'big picture'.


----------



## Rúmil

I read it for the first time the night before my leaving cert.; I picked it up at 6 in the evening and didn't put it down until I finished it at 4 in the morning. Slept only 2 hours last night. Since then I vowed not to pick up any Tolkien the night before important exams.


----------



## ¤-Elessar-¤

I had thought the the Silmarillion was already assembled, so to speak, by Tolkien before he died. I don't know why I thought that, I have nothing to back it.


----------



## Chymaera

J.R.R. was always the author. Christopher was the Editor/compiler.


----------



## Walter

> _Originally posted by ¤-Elessar-¤ _
> I had thought the the Silmarillion was already assembled, so to speak, by Tolkien before he died. I don't know why I thought that, I have nothing to back it.


Well, you are right: JRR's first attempts to have _The Silmarillion_ published date back as far as 1937, right after _The Hobbit_ had been published, before he had even begun to work on a new book, meant to be a successor of _The Hobbit_, , first refered to as "The New Hobbit" and what later became _The Lord of the Rings_. Details about this all can be found in H. Carpenter's Tolkien biography and Tolkien's Letters...


----------



## DGoeij

You know I really forgot that? But it's clear from the foreword that Christopher put some real effort in it to create a more readable book. But he used his fathers work, not adding anything. So J.R.R. Tolkien is the author.


----------



## Rúmil

Well, yes, the Sil was in publishable form in '37. But are you aware of how much revison it underwent afterwards? by the time of Tolkien's death it was a scattered heap of MSS. Chris had a _lot_ of work to do.


----------



## Elbereth

I read about half the book in one day (I was on a bus for 6 hours...so I had time to read it.)

The other half took me about three days to finish, since I would only read it when I was commuting on the subway. But I guess four days isn't very long when I think about it. 

(PS...it only took me two weeks to read LOTR's...but it took me two months to read The Book of Lost Tales I - Go figure! )


----------



## Walter

> _Originally posted by Rúmil _
> Well, yes, the Sil was in publishable form in '37. But are you aware of how much revison it underwent afterwards? by the time of Tolkien's death it was a scattered heap of MSS. Chris had a _lot_ of work to do.


Yes, especially since Christopher shared this with the reader on several occasions (e.g. the Foreword of Morgoth's ring, etc.), I am fully aware of that. Sometimes I delight myself in speculations - based on the different versions we get presented in the HoME - about what the Sil had looked like if it had been published either 1937 or together with LotR...


----------



## Rúmil

Huch more like HOME vol.4. Much less good.


----------



## Gil-Galad

cesarfilho,read the Sil.That's the only way to understand that JRR.Tolkien wrote the book,not his son.His son just compiled it.


----------



## ¤-Elessar-¤

Yes, quite right. That is undoubtably the best solution.


----------



## Legolas_lover12

it took me about 2 months. mainly because i had to go to the index 5 times on each page. because everyone and everyplace had to have 5 different names in 5 different languages. and then they had to change their name because something or another happened. gosh, keep the same name ur whole life and choose one language to have it in. it took me till when i was looking at the family trees in the back to realise that thingol was actually elwe. and it took me till about half way though the book to stop getting finrod and fingon confused. and trying to figure out which one had felegund as a surname. actually i still don't know that. it was finrod, wasn't it??...........and everyone's name sounds like someone else's name. hurin, turin. fingolfin, finarfin. tuor, huor, finwe, ingwe, elwe, olwe. curufin, carathir. it took me half way through the book to figure out who the sons of feanor were too. i've started unfinished tales now. am still in the first chapter. i wouldn't even be there if i haden't skiped the prologes and notes and stuff.
ok, done ranting


----------



## unearthly16

3 or 4 days. Once I got through "the Music of the Ainur," and some action stuff started happening, I couldn't put it down. 

Not that I read just action stuff. Maybe that was what I was in the mood for or something. I liked the romance between Beren and Luthien just as much.


----------



## Legolas_lover12

JJRT wrote it. his son just put it together and "filled in the gaps" so it would be more readable. i think he also said he shortened it so it wouldn't be soo long.


----------



## Str!d3r

*Silmarilion*

i absolutely loved the hobbit and fellowship books

i started the silmarilion and it was kinda slow, should i continue the book?
is it good?(scale of 1-10)?


----------



## Ithrynluin

*Re: Silmarilion*



> _Originally posted by Str!d3r _
> *i absolutely loved the hobbit and fellowship books
> 
> i started the silmarilion and it was kinda slow, should i continue the book?
> is it good?(scale of 1-10)? *



The style of the Sil is pretty much different than in LOTR and the Hobbit. You'll (probably) get lost with all those names at first,but take it slow,and you can always reread it later and fill in the gaps.
I'd give it a perfect 10 without much consideration and I'm guessing the majority of the people here will agree with me.But this is just a mere guess of course!


----------



## Phenix

I wuld say... a 10 maybe a 9 couse it was a difficult languitch (at least in the Swedish translation)


----------



## ¤-Elessar-¤

it is a bit slow at the beginning, with the struggles between the Valar and Melkor, and then the coming of the elves and the coming of men... But after that you get into the wars of Beleriand, and those are all wonderful. The Silmarillion really opens you up to Tolkien's other writings, such as HoME and Unfinished Tales. It is an essential 10.


----------



## Grond

I suggest you read Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age first. It is a familiar topic and will keep your interest. Save the Ainulindale and the Quenta Simarillion til last and read them in spurts. The Quenta Silmarillion is like a book of short stories. You don't have to read them in order. Look in the table of contents and pick a story to read each week. I especially liked the story of Beren and Luthien and the story of Turin. It is definately a 10 but you have to work at it.


----------



## Tinuviel

It's hard for me to say because I didn't read it through all the way just once. Like others, I skipped back and forth between chapters. Some I read many times over, others I think that I've read only once. This summer I picked it up after many years and read most of the way through in a couple of days. This really is one of my favorite books. It gives so much history and makes everything else so much more understandable.


----------



## Winch

*Who knows*

I just picked it up from the library last night. I have read AINULINDALE and VALAQUENTA 3 times now. It is so fascinating. I want to get all these Valar straight. I hope I can move on pretty soon!


----------



## Winch

I'm about 1/3 of the way thru it on my first reading. I'm really enjoying it but starting to get bogged down. I think once I have I finish it and have understood it well enough it will make another pass thru TH & LOTR much more enjoyable. Hang in there


----------



## Winch

*Need some clarification on the ages*

I'm about 1/3 of the way thru The Sil on my first reading. I was doing fine for a while but now I'm starting to bog down. My question right now is: what delineates the different ages? You know, what marks the beginning and end of each? How many were there? I believe TH & LOTR occurs in the 3rd age right?


----------



## Gamil Zirak

The First Age begins with the Return of the Noldor to Middle-earth, the first rising of the Moon, and the Awakening of Men in Hildórien. It ends with the War of Wrath. The Second Age begins after the War of Wrath and ends with the overthrow of Sauron by the Last Alliance.


----------



## Winch

Crud, I haven't even got to the start of the first age yet! I was assuming it began at the beginning of creation. What is that interval before the first age referred to as?


----------



## Gamil Zirak

The time before the First Age is known as the Years of the Trees.


----------



## ¤-Elessar-¤

they were still ages, though. They were ages of the trees, and then the later were ages of the sun, I beleive.


----------



## Ceorl

The ages are divided as follows: The ages of the lamps, these were the first lights for the lighting of ME. During the first spring of Arda the world was the fairest it has ever been. 

Then the lamps were destoyed and around the same time Morgoth destroyed also the Valar's dwelling on the Isle of Ilmaren, therefore they removed from ME and went to Aman where they founded Valinor and Yavanna sang a song which sprouted the two trees of Valinor. What followed was known as the ages of the trees. These were the longest and the most joyous of all the ages, when Valinor was filled with things new and more beautiful every day, and the land lived in the light of the trees. ME was shielded from the light by the vast Pelori mountains and most of the things that grew there were put under the sleep of Yavanna that they might grow again when a new light had been divised.

The ages of the sun followed Morgoths destruction and the Valars setting of two great vessels in the sky- Anar ar Isil. These are the ages which we are most concerned with in our studies of ME. 

The ages of the sun were as follows: First age of the sun, was deemed to begin when the moon first rose above the confines of the world, and it ended upon the defeat of Morgoth in the War of Wrath. The Second age was held to have ended upon the first defeat of Sauron, in the Last alliance.The third age was then held to have ended not upon the final destruction of Sauron but when the ringbearers, passed into the uttermost West. Thus began the fourth age, the age of men, in which the Elves faded and the men multiplied.

It is not only the ages of the sun that are divided up, the other lights were also divided into ages, but were never defined I dont think. for instance Melkor was sentenced to three ages locked in the halls of Mandos.


----------



## Flame of Anor

I thoroughly enjoyed it. I give it a perfect 10. It does get kind of confusing at times, but it works out in the end. Continue reading it. It gets better. It sheads light on many things.

-Flame


----------



## Maeglin

I'd give it a ten, its very difficult to remember all the names and who they are, I had to keep going back to find out who was who, and some of the chapters don't seem related at first and you'll be wondering why there in there, but eventually it all comes together and you'll understand why everything was there when you reach the end.


----------



## Gil-Galad

The Sil is 11 not 10!I like it more than LOTR.I won't try to proove my oppinion cause I believe most of the other members who have read it think the same thing.It's just a history of a world,full with great battles,deeds,and great sadness.


----------



## Gil-Galad

Well you can classify them very easy.But see this:
I ages-Melkor's life in Arda and the greatest ages for the elves.Their "Golden Century".
II ages-the time of Sauron and the last High king of all Noldors Gil-Galad-Me .
III-the returning of Sauron,first in Mirkwood and later in Mordor.The arriving of Maiar who have to help people,the last days of elves in ME and the war of the ring.
It's simple.


----------



## Maeglin

I wouldn't say its better than LOTR, but it does help understand everything they're always talking about in LOTR, anyone who reads it will be glad they did.


----------



## Grond

> _Originally posted by Glorfindel1187 _
> *I wouldn't say its better than LOTR, but it does help understand everything they're always talking about in LOTR, anyone who reads it will be glad they did. *


It's my favorite book simply because of its diversity. I will agree that it isn't necessarily better than LotR... just a different type of experience.


----------



## Jon

Read it all the way through without going back, however great the temptation. You will enjoy it more this way. When you`ve finished you can go back and `study it` if you want, but what is most important is the enjoyment.


----------



## Dwarf Lord

*Silmarillion?*

I've read both LOTR and The Hobbit, and i've been wanting to read other Tolkien books. The first book that came to my attention was The Silmarillion. The only reason i didn't get it was because i've heard it was written in a different style or manner. I was just wandering if any of you could shed some light on the matter?  I would be more then happy if you could.

DWARF LORD


----------



## Confusticated

Welcome to the forum Dwarf Lord..

The Silmarillion is written differently than the other two books. It doesn't follow in a straight line, rather each chapter tells a tale that ties in with the other tales in the book. These are told in good order though. The book starts with the creation of middle-earth and from there is tells of the major events of the first age. I think this book has something to offer for any Tolkien fan. I see you like Dwarvs..they too are in the book, not just Elves. I don't want to give anything away but there's some stuff in there that I think you will find quite interesting. In my opnion the book is as good as The lord of the Rings even if not written so simply.


----------



## Dwarf Lord

Thank you! I'll definatly find some time to read it. I'm glad they have dwarves, i do enjoy them! I like the idea of being a bold warrior living under a mountain, not to forget the honor!

DWARF LORD


----------



## Old Man Willow

Dwarf Lord,


Think of the Sil as the "bible" of Tolkien's works. LOTR is a specific example of one of the tales tied in with the whole story, harping on the third age. It is such an amazing piece of literature, but I will tell you, it's somewhat long and some have told me it's bored them to the point of stopping. Don't do this, because it is a beautiful, complete, and well-worth book when you've finished.


----------



## Dwarf Lord

Thank you, I will heed your advice and read through the whole thing. It's very odd though some peoples descriptions make it sound something like a poem. But it sounds great.


DWARF LORD


----------



## Samwise_hero

Should i mention that, that last post was a little WEIRD!!!
Not to mention a little under-sane!


----------



## Beverly

*"SIL" = BIBLE*

I would have to agree with the Old Man. Both have the creation of the universe and beings.
JRRT was a genius.


----------



## Tserry

It´s good to know, that I´m not the only one, who doesn´t understand The Silmarillion. I just started to read it. And I haven´t ever read any Tolkien´s book before. So, I´m totally clean list. My mother tongue is not englis, but The Silmarillion is in english, so that is probably one of the reasons, why it is difficult for me. 
But is there some kind of summary of Silmarillon somewhere? Does somebody know? I thought, that if I could first read the summary, then it would be easyer for me to read the book itself.


----------



## emopansy

true tolkiens intelect in the silm is at times difficult to understand but i would atleast start with the trilogy since it would get you into the swing of his style.


----------



## Gil-Galad

Grond,:
"It's my favorite book simply because of its diversity"
The best sentence in the whole post I think.


----------



## Gil-Galad

Old Man Willow,:
''Think of the Sil as the "bible" of Tolkien's works.''
A very good idea. 
Dwarf_Lord,The Sil is very hard to read but Unfinished Tales are harder.Altough there aren't easy to read you will enjoy them,I guarantee!


----------



## Confusticated

The Silmarillion is not difficult for everyone to read. I think that chances are if you Like the first part you'll find the book easier to read. I could be wrong but it seems to me that those who don't enjoy the first part are the ones who think it is harder to get into. I loved the opening part though....it was nothing like I expected even though I didnt know what to expect. I dont have the way with words to describe my opinions/feelings for that Book.


----------



## LordofNumenor

I just restarted the Silmarillion. I got it a while ago and read about half, then stopped. Its pretty amazing in places, but hard going. I found it pretty hard to follow in places, as everybody has a name similar to their father's.I will finish this time though. I hope.


----------



## Winch

*What's next?*

I just finished the first reading of The Sil. It took 3 weeks off and on. I intend to read it again to see how much more I get out of it the next time but after that or in addition to it, what do you suggest I read next? I've only read TH & LOTR besides The Sil.


----------



## Mormegil

You should read 'Unfinished Tales' next. 
It contains many stories from the First Age through to the end of the Third Age. Especially interesting are the extended tales of Tuor and Turin.

After that you should try reading the 12 volumes of 'The History of Middle Earth'. And possibly 'The Letters of JRR Tolkien'

I suggest you re read the Silmarillion a few times before reading HoME though, as you need to be fairly famiuliar with all the stories.

Have fun reading more about Middle Earth.


----------



## Grond

I found _The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien_ to be the most enlightening read I've had in a long time. I would encourage you to read the Letters after you finish Unfinished Tales. HoMe is a daunting read as it was really written more for research material than as a cohesive story.


----------



## elf boy

The Sil is the probably the greatest single (notice i said single, i'm not going to try to compare it to LOTR, cause i don't know who would win and don't want to know either) book i've ever read. BUT, ya have to have the interest in the other books to make it through the Sil... at least it seems to me that ya would. The other books put the Sil into more of a context, and then when ya read the Sil, it puts the other books into context (sounds confusing, but i'm pretty much saying the Sil fills in stuff ya wondered about in the LOTR)


----------



## Hama

Tserry: 
From one non-native English speaker to another, I would suggest you start reading the Trilogy first, and maybe perhaps the Hobbit. You may even find some of the stories from the Unfinished Tales easier to read, as it is probably closer to English literary material you have already been exposed to. Once you are through these, you will find it a lot easier to get into the style and language of the Silmarillion, as it uses a slightly archaic but more grand vocabulary which inexperienced English readers would be unfamiliar with.


----------



## Gil-Galad

LordofNumenor,no matter how difficult is you MUST finish it!!


----------



## DurinsBane

Dwarf Lord,


Welcome, i am Durins Bane. It's Nice to see another Dwarf Lover join the Ranks of The Tolkein Forum.

"All Hail the king under the carven stone"


----------



## mr underhill

errrrrmm...

its a bit late look at his posts!

lol!

dwarfs 4 ever!


----------



## Beverly

*Studying the Silmarillion*

The Silmarillion is my favorite. It took me from first reading the Hobbit,
which made me want to read the LOTR, which left me totally curious as to how all of these wonderful people/races started in the first place.
Yavanna was my favorite Valar.


----------



## Silnarrin

I thought the Silmarillion a masterpiece. Very much deeper than the LOTR and Hobbit. Written in an 'older' style. Some readers cannot get into it, and put the book down...I found it hard to shake off. The writing style gets into my brain...and example:

I was reading it last month (fourth or fifth time I guess), when my oldest son came into the room and said he was already tired of his new video game, and wished he had another. To which I said "And when you become weary of that one also, will you yet desire another?"
He just stared at me. I noticed then my wife was also staring at me.
My family does not understand when I speak Tolkieneese...
"You're just gonna have to deal with that one." I told my son.
My wife gave me a strange look, and went back to her book.
I went back to the Silmarillion.


----------



## Anamatar IV

*This Is A Hard Book!*

Im serious. I started reading it like a week ago and im on page 70!!! Im usually a good reader---finished the entire LOTR books in 3 weeks flat. But THIS book! It is HARD! What age did you guys read this thing?


----------



## Confusticated

If the book is too hard then get a papaer back. 
Actually I first read it a couple months ago when I was 22. It is crammed full of information/names. Stick with it the best you can, and then try reading it a second time. Actually, our guild will be reading it a chapter at a time and discussing as we go along. This may be a great thing for you.


----------



## LúthienTinúviel

Aye, it is a wee complicated with all the people names and place names etc etc. Definitely headache material if you try to take it all in too fast or all at once. I suggest in addition to keeping a bookmark in the name index in the back for quick reference, also make use of the wonderful, though sometimes flawed, site The Encyclopedia of Arda. That was you get a quick name reference, but you can also quickly view more related topics. This will give you a broader and also more clear view of what's going on or who exactly a person is and why he\she is important.

<shameless advertising>
Also, I'm working on writing a *huge* Sil section for There And Back Again.net which includes significant people\places\items\creatures, as well as beautiful illustrations done by Daniel Govar (webmaster of TABA and TORn staffer - aka saulone). If you want to see some very cool pictures of some of the Sil characters, it's worth checking that out.
</shameless advertising>


----------



## Anamatar IV

well i would do that 1 chapter at a time thing but I need this for a 2 credit book report in about 1 week. I gotta read fast! The easy part is...i dont need to know the names. I only have to make a timeline of 10 events. Thatll be easy if I knew when it happened.


----------



## Ithrynluin

I was 17 when I first read it,and it wasn't all that easy.I kept glancing at the index of names and eventually understood everything 
You're quite young Anamatar aren't you? Just take it slow you've got all the time in the world don't you? (except for that book report thing right? ) By reading it slowly you can enjoy and cherish every page of the book.


----------



## Anamatar IV

by reading slowly I can get an F on my book report for turning it in 2 weeks late. Ya know my family was proud of me when I read the LOTR series about a year ago. Whatll they say now?!?


----------



## Ithrynluin

> _Originally posted by Anamatar IV _
> *by reading slowly I can get an F on my book report for turning it in 2 weeks late. Ya know my family was proud of me when I read the LOTR series about a year ago. Whatll they say now?!?   *



Emmm....That's our boy?

Well,sure if you have to read it that fast you'll just have to do that. But take your time after that and read it again (and again and again...)


----------



## Anamatar IV

yeah-too bad I cant get credits for the same book again and again and again. Or else id just read LOTR all the time.  I actually dont have to make a timeline now---I have to write 3 gifts for the main charecter. Er Umm. Who IS the main charecter??????


----------



## Ithrynluin

What do you mean 3 "gifts" ?
There is NO main character (lest it be the Silmarils themselves of course  )


----------



## Anamatar IV

i have to think of 3 tangable and intangable gifts. Ill just give the silmars to morgoth, the light of the 2 trees to Ungoliant, and a sword made to slice Feanors neck clean and easy for Fingolfin.


----------



## Phenix

ok... well anyway first time i reed it I was 13 but I only reed half of it befor I quit... But this summer ( i'm 15 now) I reed the whole book pritty fast and I understood almost everything.


----------



## Carantalath

I thought the Silmarillion was hard the first time I read it too. But I stuck with it and now I'm reading it again. Here's a tip for you for reading it. When you're ready to stop, make sure it's at the start of the next chapter. I tried stopping in the middle of a chapter once and I got confused when I tried to start reading again. Good luck with your report thing!


----------



## Anamatar IV

now people tell me that at the end of the 1st hundred pages. ive had no problem stoppng in the middle of chapters actually. If a nice luxury to be able to stop on a chapter though.


----------



## LadyGaladriel

I found the same problem but Thanks to a very nice person on thwe forunm (Maedhos) I am trying it again


----------



## Nenya Evenstar

I first read it when I was about twelve. Boy, it went right over my head. I didn't even get anything out of it and don't think I learned anything from reading it. Then I read it again a year ago and got a lot more out of it and was able to really appreciate it and understand everything that went on. Unfortunately, I've found that it is a very easy book to forget what happens, and so I now have only a hazy idea of what happens. I just started reading it again and am making my way through it smoothly and without loosing concentration once. Yay!  It always helps me to refer to the index and the maps frequently and to do things like memorize which Valar is married to which.


----------



## gate7ole

The biggest difficulty of the book, is the plethora of names, most of them are not used in many chapters. Most times, I had to check the previous chapters for that name that didn't ring abny bell. It is after all a mythology and should be given some time to be adopted. 2nd and 3rd readings of course help...


----------



## Anduril

Yes, I've to agree with you guys about "Silmarillion".

It's HUGE and DENSE, but, calm down, every history has its own beginning...

It's not easy to remember all those things, since Ainulindale to the whole adventures in the countless battles inside the story.

I suggest you to read it again, I know it can be hard and tiring, but think about it as a good experience that has to be discovered by parts.

I red the book when I was 20, and believe, I finished dizzy and with a massive headache...but I learnt a bunch...

Please, try it again.
At the end, It will be fun.

And PLEASE, don't set yourself with reading times or "records".
You're trying to catch a tremendous amount of info.
Be kind with your brain...you only have one...

If this idea can help you...when you finish a chapter, make a synthesis with the main ideas, it will help you to set the things in their own perspective.

Regards.
Good Luck.

C U Out there.


----------



## Anamatar IV

well not only do I need it for a project-its on the 10th grade reading list in the library so I have about 5 more days with this thing.


----------



## Carantalath

Wow, you're in the 10th grade too? So am I. Well, like I said before, just keep reading it. Do like that other people suggested and look up names and stuff in the index and you'll do fine.


----------



## Anamatar IV

nope not even close to 10th grade. Its on the 10th grade reading list. That doesnt mean im there. Try 2 grades down (reading level). im in the 7th grade otherwise.


----------



## Elenaelin

Persevere- the beginning of the Sil. can be a little tricky the first time, but once you get going, you can't put it down (at least I couldn't) I read it completely this year (10th year at school) but I started, muddled about halfway through it, then lost it/ had to read something else. The Sil. is so complicated ( that's one of it's beauties!) that you may want to pick a easier, pansy-ish book for your report. If you're going to soldier on (to which i STRONGLY ADVISE!) you may want to re- read each chapter once you're done with it (yeah, yeah, i know...it's a bit of an ego- deflation...) Keep working at it- you won't be sorry!


----------



## Anamatar IV

ya know this sounds like a weight loss commercial. Try and try some more. Youll be happy you did. I actually understand alot of it. Just seperating the maia and valar gives me the headache. Ill read again in a bout 2 years. I know i can read it then.


----------



## Ancalagon

The Silmarillion is still my favourite published work of Tolkiens, though I know Christopher has tirelessly worked upon revising much in HOME, The Sil is still the best read of the lot.


----------



## Elenaelin

*You're* the one who asked for help...besides, if this was a weight loss comercial, I'd promise that you could read the sil. in less than two week, you're IQ would be raised 50 points, and you would be active sought after by the opposite sex...


----------



## Confusticated

> _Originally posted by Anamatar IV _
> *ya know this sounds like a weight loss commercial. Try and try some more. Youll be happy you did. I actually understand alot of it. Just seperating the maia and valar gives me the headache. Ill read again in a bout 2 years. I know i can read it then. *



Perhaps it is just beyond your reading level. Well, I know you can read it but I mean comprehension. I don't know....anyhow: our guild will be reading this and discussing each chapter, wont you join that?


----------



## Anamatar IV

i keep forgetting to add smilies when i want to. I wanted a  thing there. Anyways i WOULD join but---A) thing due in 4 days.
B)-thing due in 4 days.


----------



## LúthienTinúviel

Yikes! Good luck...

Again, I suggest The Encyclopedia of Arda as a quick reference tool. It'll help you to tell who's a Valar, Maia, elf, man, etc with only a few clicks of a mouse. 

Then of course the awesome index of names. But sometimes thinking in alphabetical order gives me a headache (go figure...), so I get lazy and use Arda.


----------



## Anamatar IV

i have the index bookmark. Its so easy now. I look up stuff like Turgon when i get confused or like just now Maegil.


----------



## Anamatar IV

*Curse of Mandos?*

I havent understood this for a long time. What exactly is the Curse of Mandos? Its not in the index and i dont remember reading about it.


----------



## Ceorl

The Curse of Mandos, also known as the Doom of the Noldor, fell upon all those of the Noldor who fled from Aman to pursue Morgoth and wrest from him the Silmarils. It was not due to the flight of the Noldor that it was laid, as the Valar did not seek to hold any Elf in bondage. It was due however to the vicious kinslaying at Alqualonde where many of the finest mariners of the Teleri were slain. 



> 'Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains. On the House of Feanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the west unto the uttermost East, and upon all that follow them shall it be laid also. Their oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass. The Dispossessed shall they be forever.
> 'Ye have spilled the blood of your kindred unrighteously and have stained the land of Aman. For blood ye shall render blood, and beyond Aman ye shall dwell in Death's shadow. For though Eru appointed you not to die in Ea, and no sickness may assail you, yet slain ye may be, and slain ye shall be; by weapon and by torment and by grief; and your houseless spiritd shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom you have slain should entreat for you. And those that endure in Middle-Earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as with a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after. The Valar have spoken.'



taken from; The Flight of the Noldor, The Silmarillion 

Thus spoke Mandos himself before the host of the Noldor, and hearing his words, many of that host indeed repented and turned back, and formost among them was Finarfin youngest son of Finwe.

That was the curse of Mandos


----------



## Anamatar IV

*Do the elves ever win?!?*

Im in the chapter Turin Turambar or whatever but thats not the point. I just said that because i dont want people to give me any spoilers. OKAY! NO SPOILERS!!! I was just wondering...ive read about lots of battles and the elves always lose! Morgoth always wins and the elves and men are always utterly defeated. So heres my question...do the elves ever win a single battle?!?! and if they did how did they win the war when morgoth had won so many?


----------



## Elenaelin

Oh yes- they do win....it will take a while...but it does happen...but i can't give the secret away of course...they had help (i probably ought not to say that)


----------



## Confusticated

*Re: Do the elves ever win?!?*



> _Originally posted by Anamatar IV _
> Im in the chapter Turin Turambar or whatever but thats not the point. I just said that because i dont want people to give me any spoilers. OKAY! *NO SPOILERS!!!* I was just wondering...ive read about lots of battles and the elves always lose! Morgoth always wins and the elves and men are always utterly defeated. So heres my question...*do the elves ever win a single battle?!?! and if they did how did they win the war when morgoth had won so many?*



Anamatar... you just contradicted the heck outta yourself. If you knew the answer to this question you would understand that it can not be answered with spoiling the Quenta Silmarillion...


----------



## Anamatar IV

also you dont need to try not to tell me turin kills morgoth. some THOUGHTLESS PEOPLE ON THIS VERY FORUM ( ) posted it somewhere. Thats what drives me on. To read where that happens.

And *confused*icated (hope you dont mind  ) the que-hoosa sil-what-now?


----------



## Confusticated

> _Originally posted by Anamatar IV _
> *also you dont need to try not to tell me turin kills morgoth. some THOUGHTLESS PEOPLE ON THIS VERY FORUM ( ) posted it somewhere. Thats what drives me on. To read where that happens.*
> 
> And *confused*icated (hope you dont mind  ) the que-hoosa sil-what-now?



I am of the thought that no one should respond that that part in bold. Just a suggesting though...by all means do what you guys will.

que-hoosa sil-what-now?...hehehehehe
The Quenta Silmarillion. There are several sections in the book "The Silmarillion" 1)Ainulindale: That is the short part about the music of the Ainur...the next part is the 2)Valaquenta, that is where it tells about the Valar. Next is The Quenta Silmarillion, that is the story of the coming of the Elves and their battles with Morgoth. The section you are reading now... The next two secotions I'll let you figure out..


----------



## Anamatar IV

a dont understand that 1st part really. But if you mean i shouldnt have said that thoughtless thing i put a little  after it. Doesnt that make things all better?   

But what about Allkabeth or whatever and that last chapter? Are those the same book or like the appendixes?


----------



## Nenya Evenstar

The Akallabeth is basically about the men of Numenor. It's not like an appendix at all (though the appedixes contain much valuable information) and is more like a little book. After The Akallabeth is a part about the Rings of Power. You should definitely read both.

The elves won at Mordor when they defeated Sauron.... and they won in the end too.


----------



## gate7ole

Since you are at Turin's chapter, you must know that the elves did actually win a few battles.
The 2rd battle, the battle under the stars, was a battle won, since they siezed Angband for more than 300 years. They had peace for a long period. Of course Feanor died in this battle, but we can't have everything.
Beren's battle was also won (in general).
There will be some more in a while.
Keep reading...


----------



## Lord Aragorn

You ask us a question, the tell us not to give you the answer... You shouldn't tempt us... But oh well, Read On!


----------



## Ceorl

What I think sums up your question very well without giving away too much is the final passage in the Silmarillion:


> Here ends the SILMARILLION. If it has passed from the high and the beautiful to darkness and ruin, then that was of old the fate of Arda Marred; and if any change shall come and the marring be ammended, Manwe and Varda may know; but they have not revealed it, and it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos



Sums it up very well I think.


----------



## Anamatar IV

*Morgoth Didnt Die?!?!?!?!?!?*

I cannot beleive it! I just finished the Quenta Silmarillion (i still need to finish Akellabeth or what not) and MORGOTH DIDNT DIE!!!! THAT IS NOT RIGHT!!! what happened to him? What happened to sauron too? Why didnt the valar find him when Angband was overthrown?


----------



## Thorin

Nope...Morgoth was banished from Arda into the void...Sauron escaped Valar detection and lived to fight another day....At the end, it has been prophecied that Turin and Morgoth will fight the last battle and Morgoth will be destroyed....


----------



## Gothmog

No Morgoth did not die. It is impossible for this to happen. Melkor (Morgoth) is in fact an Ainu who like the rest of the Valar and Maiar has chosen to be bound to Arda. But this only means that his power can only be used within Arda. He is still the same type of being that he was before he decended into the World and is not subject to death, not even the 'Minor' death of the Elves. There is nothing in or on Arda that can end his life, only Eru possesses that power and he will not use it.

That being the case all that can be done with Morgoth is to lock him in The Halls of Mandos or banish him to the Void. The Valar choose to banish him.

As for Sauron, when the Valar captured Morgoth they were not concerned with a Maia and did not try very hard to find him when he hid from them.


----------



## Anamatar IV

didnt turin die? How could they fight if he is dead?


----------



## Ithrynluin

> _Originally posted by Anamatar IV _
> *didnt turin die? How could they fight if he is dead? *



Turin indeed died,but at the Dagor Dagorath he would reappear to slay Melko (the concept of the Dagor Dagorath was abandoned by Tolkien later in his life I think).

And BTW,concerning Sauron :
He pleaded for mercy to Eönwë,the herald of Manwë.Eönwë couldn't pardon Sauron for his evil deeds,because they were peers (both Maiar) so he said Sauron must go to Valinor to receive judgement from the Valar.Sauron was too ashamed to do that so he just hid himself and returned to evil.


----------



## Anamatar IV

so that prophecy or the dagor da whats it isnt in my book? Too bad. I wouldve LOVED to read about that.


----------



## Ithrynluin

Yeah sorry about that,it's in one of the HOME books.you should get them if you really really wanna know. I think there's a thread somewhere around here,which provides you with all the quotes regarding the Dagor Dagorath.


----------



## TheFool

just wondering: I've seen a few posts that have 'Melko' instead of 'Melkor' - is this correct?


----------



## gate7ole

As for Sauron's escape, this is another misstep by the Valar. They just can't solve a problem thoroughly. I understand that they couldn't care about any Maia, but what about the strongest lieutenand of Melkor, a poerful Maia that caused two more wars the next two Ages? They just let him go away.


----------



## Ithrynluin

> _Originally posted by TheFool _
> *just wondering: I've seen a few posts that have 'Melko' instead of 'Melkor' - is this correct? *



Yes, "Melko" is correct as well,though less commonly used.


----------



## The Tall Hobbit

Here is a link to the Last Battle Thread that ithrynluin referred to:
http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4971


----------



## Ceorl

When it comes to Sauron, the Valar were only interested in Morgoth; however they left behind Eonwe to mop up the 'war criminals' so to speak. It is said that Sauron at first repented, and paid homage to Eonwe. However it was not within the power of Eonwe to forgive him or to constrain him. However he did command him to come to Valinor and there abide the judgement of the Valar. Sauron however feared bondage, since he had been a master over many during the days of Morgoth's reign, and refused to come to Aman. He hid in ME and there fell back into evil ways.


----------



## Gil-Galad

Sauron also hides himself so that for many years nobody see.He comes back when the Valar go back in Valinor and there's no any danger for him.


----------



## Popqueen62

*I Just Started...*

I just started the Silmarillion. I bought it at Barnes and Nobles. Does anyone have any reccomendations on reading it. It's really confusing, but don't worry, I WON'T GIVE UP


----------



## Anamatar IV

book mark the index in the back and the map of beleriand. I FINISHED A FEW DAYS AGO!


----------



## Popqueen62

thank you, i keep going back into the index anyway


----------



## Eliot

I know what you mean. It IS hard to understand. I just started a couple weeks ago. I'm going sloooooow.


----------



## Gil-Galad

Read it very carefully.If you can't read it for second,third time,but try ot understand it!


----------



## Popqueen62

the thing is, atschool you getmarked off if the book takes longer than a month for you to read, and my teacher said "NO EXCEPTIONS" so i'm like dedicating all my time to it, because my older sister wants to read it for school in two weeks


----------



## Anamatar IV

you CANNOT read the book in a month and still comprehend it!!! You just cant!


----------



## Popqueen62

*i know...*

i know right? so i'm probably gonna have to buy my sister another copy for herself. the sad thing is, i've been at my grandparents house this weekend, and it's really boring, so i read, so i'm like 100 pages into it. but when i finish it, i'll probably read it again to keep everything straight.


----------



## Anamatar IV

ya know when i read it i skimmed over each chapter AFTER i finished it and I still dont understand half the stuff that goes on in this forum.


----------



## Popqueen62

yeah well, everything in there is a little confusing.It gets a little frustrating. My teacher made us all make goals. and my goal was to read all of j. r. r. tolkien's books by the time i'm 23 years old, which is pretty sad, because i probably wouldn't be able to do it cuz i'm so stupid


----------



## Anamatar IV

WOOHOO not a chance. Your 14 now, right? Well youre done with 4 books. Youve just started your 5th. But after this theres apparantly more than 6 volumes of 300 page books in the HOME series then a THICK book of UT. Then there are a whole bunch of other books written by tolkien outside of middle-earth...i could go on and on.


----------



## Popqueen62

actually, i've read six, but whose counting. Hey, i said it was a goal that i probably wouldn't achieve. Plus, what's the problem with trying? ever heard of it? jk.


----------



## ¤-Elessar-¤

If you read it un-interrupted, and in long-spans, it should work out fairly well. I find it hardest to understand a book when you continually have to put it down, and break the train of thought. Try and go outside, find a tree or something (preferrably where no-one can find you) and read. It works really well...


----------



## ravenbrand

I read The Silmilarian pretty much solidly in about two weeks!Im still goin back to it every now and again and reading odd chapters to refresh my memory.

p.s i love elessar's little jimi hendrix signature pic its so cool!!
i want one.


----------



## flame

*a hard book to read.*

i found this book hard to get to grips with. i am 14 and i am waiting few more years to read it. does anyone talk in it.


----------



## Ithrynluin

Awwwwww....yet another new member who's having difficulties with the Sil... Just kidding. 
If you are asking whether there is any dialogue in the book,yes there is -just be patient.Read the book very slowly,look up any words you do not completely understand and the index of names at the back is extremely helpful for the first reading especially(so you don't get lost with all the different names).
Good luck,and welcome!


----------



## flame

thaks. i signd up in aug then lost this play site put i just found it. yay.
this place rock like my broad


----------



## Valinorean

I had a hard time with the Sil at that age, too. It isn't really necessary to read it all in order, though! Feel free to skip to the good stuff, rather than lose interest altogether. I think you'll find that once you see how fascinating it is, you will be more motivated to dive into the hard parts.


----------



## flame

is it a good book then.


----------



## Valinorean

the best!


----------



## LadyGaladriel

Im reading the sim and I have bought a book 2a guide to tolkien" to help me with it. 

But it seems pretty good so far and I haven't encountered any major promblems.


----------



## flame

what is better the trilogy of the lord of the ring or the sil.


----------



## Ravenna

They are both brilliant, but I suppose a lot depends on what you want from the book.
For something that can be read as a straightforward story, without having to delve into the deep and meaningful, (although, obviously that is part of the book), then LoTR is better.
But if you really want to find out more about Tolkiens Middle Earth and it's history, then the Sil is the best possible starting point.


----------



## Anamatar IV

very hard. I just finished it. It is hard to read but whats strange is that the entire time youre reading it youre constantely forgetting things but after you read it you remember like all of the details. There is some dialogue in there. I guess thats why theres no quoteable quote game for the sil


----------



## Princess Vi

*Reading it for the absolute, very first time!*

I'm reading Silmarillion for the first time, but it's confusing me just a tad bit


----------



## LadyGaladriel

That happens to many people 9especially me) You have to keep on going with it though and look up anything you find confusing . theres always a TTF member who knows just a bit more about it than you.


----------



## Princess Vi

yeah, I know. I just finished with Melkor doing his music thingy and I am totally confused!


----------



## LadyGaladriel

> _Originally posted by vigoldenflower _
> *yeah, I know. I just finished with Melkor doing his music thingy and I am totally confused! *




The first bit you mean when Melkor is singing louder , I think it is?


----------



## Celebthôl

K this is l8 but it may help (im not moking tou inany way) but did you read the very beggining the chapters entitled...Ainulindale and ...Valaquenta coz these expalin the whole thing from the beggining and helps a lot well hope it helps and if not oh well!

Celeb


----------



## Princess Vi

actually i think it was Ainulindale that confused me


----------



## Elfhelm25

I borrowed the Sil from a friend about two months ago ....and was all set to dive into the book ...
However , after about nine or ten or the beginning pages I gave up and stowed it away . 
For a little while . 
After a short time , I took it out and started reading it by certain chapters .....much better way to get it started . The neat thing about the Sil is that it's not just one big story , it's a bunch of really good stories , so just leaf through , find one you like , and get started . I got hooked on Feanor and his creating of the Sils , then that got me into the whole departing of the Noldor , than into the Elvish wars going on , then on and on and suddenly Id gotten through the majority of the book and I am totally addicted . Reading it the second time was so much clearer , I kind of read through most of it front to back . If you are still having trouble , good hints to the best ch.( in my opinion ) 
Umm...well , i dont have the book here , so here goes memory ....
Anything having to do with Feanor and his sons
Anything having to do with Gondolin and Maeglin 
Anything with Fingolfin 
The Third age , The Numenoreans .....thats about it . Happy readings , and dont give up !!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Elfhelm25

Hmm..I seem to have babbled quite a bit ...you'll find I do that sometimes ....dont mind me .


----------



## YayGollum

What about my hero, obvious Gollum hater? That has nothing to do with you not wanting people to help you when you act like you're confused! oh well. Anyways, Yay for babbling! Very fun! My favorite parts were the ones with Mim, Eol, and Ungoliant!  Poor guys! Very misunderstood!


----------



## Princess Vi

never mind your stupid question. I'm very ****ed off right now, am running out of places to **** *** ******, don't mess with me, make me mad, or annoy me. warning: you are annoying me.


----------



## Rasec

I am 15, and I am reading the Sil now. I don't find it hard to read. There are in fact some words I do not know, but the rest is easy. =)

'Cesar.


----------



## Grond

vigoldenflower, if you have a question about the Silmarillion ask it. If you have a comment about the Silmarillion, say it. This is the book forum and idle chatter will not be allowed.


----------



## Finduilas

I'm 14 and I'm reading the Sil now ,too.
It's quite easy maybe because I had been told a lot about the book and I expected a lot.
The book is really great and everything about it said in this forum is true.
A friend (actually Gill-Galad)told me it would be really a big dificulty to read the Sil but I don't find it so hard.
If you try to read a bit more carefully everything's easy.


----------



## flame

well im 14 and ill try


----------



## Samwise_hero

i'm gradually getting there, it sure is confusing, i'm only 15, but i just can't stop reading it even if i have to read a section ten times before it is understandable.


----------



## Eliot

It helps to have a map of Beleriand with you while reading it, otherwise you will get pretty confused. Most versions of the book should have one in it.


----------



## Eliot

That's a pretty good map site. I had already had it bookmarked on my internet.


----------



## Grond

Smeagol, you have a wonderful site. Thanks for sharing it with us.


----------



## Eliot

I mean on my computer.


----------



## gandalfthegrey

hello 

i just bought the book yesterday and i was wondering i have not finished the the lord of the rings set yet because doing school work is like all the time i have to do but i am grounded now lol and so i have time to read again so should i read the sil or should i read the set first i have already just got done with the hobbit what a adventure. and if you could tell me it would help alot.

thanks


----------



## Grond

I would read The Lord of the Rings first. Then read The Silmarillion. The LotR is a novel and flows more smoothly. The Silmarillion gives you the history behind the Lord of the Rings and the world of Middle-earth. You need to be grounded in the story before you get grounded in the history.


----------



## Flame of Anor

Also, to add to Gronds post, it will make more sense to read The Lord of the Rings Tillogy before you read the Silmarillion.

-Flame of Anor


----------



## Eliot

Just so you know, at first the Silmarillion is one of the most boring books in the world. I got so bored with reading it, I put it down almost a whole month. It might be hard, but it is so interesting. 

If you have the time, try -not immediately- to read it again afterwards. You'll be able to understand it better the second time through. I plan on doing that myself. I'm still reading it for the first time. I'm almost done.


----------



## Eliot

I'm not stupid. I said it in the wrong way. I meant to say that when I first read it, the beginning was extremely boring. The rest of the book is great.


----------



## gandalfthegrey

well i have read the hobbit and i will start tomm. the lord of the rings i did start for a while but school work can be hecktic... 

thanks


----------



## Gil-Galad

> _Originally posted by Finduilas _
> *I'm 14 and I'm reading the Sil now ,too.
> It's quite easy maybe because I had been told a lot about the book and I expected a lot.
> The book is really great and everything about it said in this forum is true.
> A friend (actually Gill-Galad)told me it would be really a big dificulty to read the Sil but I don't find it so hard.
> If you try to read a bit more carefully everything's easy. *


Well you're reading the sil in your native language.Try reading it in Englsih and you'll see how difficult it is.


----------



## Gil-Galad

> _Originally posted by Smeagol _
> *... and it's mine
> 
> btw what do you mean with your internet? *


Yeah,it's your precious ...and I really like it!!!do you have anything in mind if I bookmark it on my computer?


----------



## Gil-Galad

> _Originally posted by Smeagol _
> *Of course you can bookmark the site
> As long you don't download a section of it and sell it as your own... (I had that already)  *


I guess how you felt then.Be sure I wouldn't do such thing,cause I had similar problems ,but with music.


----------



## Gil-Galad

> _Originally posted by Smeagol _
> *You don't have to ask if you are allowed to bookmark his site.
> A webmaster would not create a site if he didn't want folks to visit his site, bookmark it and return to it later on. That's the purpose of the internet, or is it not? *


Yes,but I want to be polite ,cause you have done a great think and I appreciate it.


----------



## Courtney

Oh isn't it sweet! I am getting all teary-eyed! Be right back I have to find some tissues...


----------

