# The Biggest Baddies



## Eledhwen (Sep 28, 2003)

Who was the worst baddie of each race? Why?

Here's a suggested hit list for starters...

Biggest baddies list:-
Melkor=Vala baddie
Feanor=Elf baddie
Sauron=Maia baddie
Smeagol=Hobbit baddie
Mim=Dwarf baddie
?=Man baddie (suggestions on a postcard, please)


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## Celebthôl (Sep 28, 2003)

I agree. . . Man baddie. . . Mouth of Sauron 

Maybe Eol for Elves. . .


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## Sarah (Sep 28, 2003)

I think the Shirriff is the hobbit baddie. cuz remember smeagol was similar to a hobbit, not exactly a hobbit.


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## BlackCaptain (Sep 28, 2003)

Valar - Melkor
Maiar - Sauron (Possibly Saruman?)
Elf - Maeglin
Dwarf - Mim
Man - Morgul King. Can't forget them Nazgul!. Also, possibly Bill Ferny or Wormtongue if you don't wana count the Morgul King
Hobbits - Lobiela!
Ents - Quickbeam. Who answers questions when the elder isnt even done asking anyways? Totaly evil


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 28, 2003)

For the Ents...Old Man Willow.  

Men - Ar-Pharazon, Ulfang/Ulfast


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## Flammifer (Sep 28, 2003)

Valar - Melkor

Maiar - Sauron

Elf - Feanor (simply for the Kinslaying)

Dwarf - Mim (Bah I hate him!), and whoever the Dwarves were who fought of Sauron.

Man - Witch King or Ar-Pharazon or Ulfang/Ulfast.

Hobbits - Lotho, Sandyman! Gollum was only "akin to the *fathers* of the Stoors, but anyway, he wasn't evil, you can't blame him for falling to the power of something which seduced beings much greater than him...

Ents - Pfft!


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## BlackCaptain (Sep 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *For the Ents...Old Man Willow.
> *



I think he would qualify under a Huorn if anything.


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 29, 2003)

Yes, but I take Huorns to belong to the same species, but of different aspect.


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## YayGollum (Sep 29, 2003)

Valar type thing ---> Manwe, because he's just a sickening Eru's pet. Aule should have been in charge.

Maiar type thing ---> The evil torturer Gandalf, just to be original

elf ---> Hm. Too hard. Since they're all too sickeningly popular for me, I attempt to not remember their names. Who's a really popular elf that lots like? Okay, I'll go with Beleg. Poor Feanor and Eol. They are much more fun to read about.

Dwarf ---> There is no such thing as an evil one of these. I'll go with Balin since he's especially popular. Mim is misunderstood. Very sad.

Human ---> Aragorn, of course! Not a huge fan of poor Smeagol's.

hobbit ---> The evil sam.

Ent ---> Sure, I'd go for that Old Man Willow dude. Why not? How many Ent types do I know of? If I knew any names of any Ents who decided to kill Dwarves that one time, I'd go for them.


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## Khôr’nagan (Sep 29, 2003)

Man - definitely the Witch King of Angmar. No doubt of that in my mind at all.

Elf - totally Maeglin, because he betrayed his kindred and lusted for his cousin. Oh, and did I mention betray his kindred?

Dwarf - None to my knowledge. Aule made them 'immune' (or something similar) to the powers of Evil. No ring could have taken control of a Dwarf. If they were vulnerable, how come none of the Dwarves turned into Wraiths by the powers of their seven Rings?

Maia - Sauron, Gothmog, or Saruman

Vala - Melkor

Ent - Old Man Willow

Hobbit - Definitely NOT Smeagol, although he was a Hobbit by all acounts. He was of the Stoors, and the Stoors were Hobbits. The End. A Hobbit is a Halfling, and Smeagol was a Halfling. But Smeagol was not evil, though he was badly corrupted. Because, at heart, Smeagol was always a good person. Thus, probably that Sandyman person.


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## BlackCaptain (Sep 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *Yes, but I take Huorns to belong to the same species, but of different aspect. *



Meh... I see where you're coming from but Fangorn said that his kind had never heard of the Shire, or any place like it. But then again that would have to mean there are more than just 1 type of tree with a will of some sort.... Raises an interesting question


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by BlackCaptain _
> *Meh... I see where you're coming from but Fangorn said that his kind had never heard of the Shire, or any place like it. *



Compare Treebeard's age to how long the Shire has existed. Not very long.

And how long has it been since Treebeard journeyed outside of his own realm? I'm thinking - not recently.

This would explain why Treebeard knows nothing about the Shire, in the sense of it being a political unit, not the lands as such.

Treebeard says there were once huge forests spreading throughout Middle-Earth, and that Fangorn was just the eastern end.



> _The Two Towers: Treebeard_
> 'The trees and the Ents,' said Treebeard. 'I do not understand all that goes on myself, so I cannot explain it to you. Some of us are still true Ents, and lively enough in our fashion, but many are growing sleepy, going tree-ish, as you might say. Most of the trees are just trees, of course; but many are half awake. Some are quite wide awake, and a few are, well, ah, well getting Entish. That is going on all the time.
> 'When that happens to a tree, you find that some have bad hearts. Nothing to do with their wood: I do not mean that. Why, I knew some good old willows down the Entwash, gone long ago, alas! They were quite hollow, indeed they were falling all to pieces, but as quiet and sweet-spoken as a young leaf. And then there are some trees in the valleys under the mountains, sound as a bell, and bad right through. That sort of thing seems to spread. [color=sky blue]There used to be some very dangerous parts in this country. There are still some very black patches.'
> 'Like the Old Forest away to the north, do you mean?' asked Merry.
> 'Aye, aye, something like, but much worse. I do not doubt there is some shadow of the Great Darkness lying there still away north[/color]; and bad memories are handed down. But there are hollow dales in this land where the Darkness has never been lifted, and the trees are older than I am. Still, we do what we can. We keep off strangers and the foolhardy; and we train and we teach, we walk and we weed.


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## Aulë (Sep 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Khôr’nagan _
> *Man - definitely the Witch King of Angmar. No doubt of that in my mind at all.
> 
> Elf - totally Maeglin, because he betrayed his kindred and lusted for his cousin. Oh, and did I mention betray his kindred?
> ...



lol
You don't include Smeagol in the list because he was corrupted by the One Ring; yet you include the Witch King who was corrupted by one of the Nine... 

And Saruman is nowhere near as evil as Sauron.


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## Eledhwen (Oct 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Aulë _
> *lol
> You don't include Smeagol in the list because he was corrupted by the One Ring; yet you include the Witch King who was corrupted by one of the Nine... *


Smeagol murdered Deagol for the ring, after only a sight of it (would Boromir have done the same, I wonder, if he'd been able to get Frodo?)

Saruman was as evil as Sauron, just less powerful. His intentions were identical.


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## YayGollum (Oct 1, 2003)

Hmph. I didn't know that poor Smeagol killed Deagol. I remember Gollum telling the evil torturer Gandalf that while being evilly tortured. Can't think of any reason to trust Gollum, though.


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## Eledhwen (Oct 5, 2003)

Maybe he was just shaking him warmly by the throat, and got over-excited.


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## Khôr’nagan (Oct 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Eledhwen _
> *Saruman was as evil as Sauron, just less powerful. His intentions were identical. *


 Actually, no. I shouldn't have put him up there, come to think of it. Saruman was only slightly evil, but when he looked into the Palantir, he was ensnared by Sauron's will, and although he though that he was acting of his own free will in all that he did, it was not so. Sauron had a great strength over Saruman, and made Saruman do what would most benefit Sauron.


> _Originally posted by YayGollum _
> *Hmph. I didn't know that poor Smeagol killed Deagol. I remember Gollum telling the evil torturer Gandalf that while being evilly tortured. Can't think of any reason to trust Gollum, though.*


 Oh really, YayGollum? Would _you_ tell and outright lie when being furiously torchered by a man who has grand magical powers and could end your life in an instant? I think not. It is obvious that Tolkien intended for that to be truth, and it is the way it happened.


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## Eledhwen (Oct 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Khôr’nagan _
> *Actually, no. I shouldn't have put him up there, come to think of it. Saruman was only slightly evil, but when he looked into the Palantir, he was ensnared by Sauron's will, and although he though that he was acting of his own free will in all that he did, it was not so. Sauron had a great strength over Saruman, and made Saruman do what would most benefit Sauron. *


Couldn't we say the same thing about Sauron being ensnared by Morgoth? The root of the greatest evils in Tolkien's work seems to be pride and self-centredness leading to megalomania and despotism.


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