# Númenor = Atlantis = Númenor



## Ancalagon (Jul 10, 2002)

I am sure this has been discussed at one time or another, but I can't find where, so I will throw it open again for discussion

So, let's picture the two;



> .Over 11,000 years ago there existed an island nation located in the middle of the Atlantic ocean populated by a noble and powerful race. The people of this land possessed great wealth thanks to the natural resources found throughout their island. The island was a center for trade and commerce. The rulers of this land held sway over the people and land of their own island and well into Europe and Africa.
> 
> This was the island of Atlantis.
> Atlantis was the domain of Poseidon, god of the sea. When Poseidon fell in love with a mortal woman, Cleito, he created a dwelling at the top of a hill near the middle of the island and surrounded the dwelling with rings of water and land to protect her.
> ...



_Courtesy of www.activemind.com_ 

Following the Great Battle, the Valar prepared the Land of Andar for the 3 Houses of the Edain to use as their own, between the shores of Middle-Earth and the Undying Lands. This island was


> raised by Ossë out of the depths of the Great Water, and it was established by Aulë and enriched by Yavanna; and the Eldar brought thither flowers and fountains out of Tol Eressëa. That land the Valar called Andar, the Land of Gift; and the Star of Eärendil shone bright in the West as a token that all was made ready, and as a guide over the sea; and Men marvelled to see that silver flame in the paths of the Sun.



Suffice to say we know the history of Númenor as told both in AKALLABÊTH and within several sections of Unfinished Tales. Eventually they became greedy, corrupted na dover-confident making a mighty force designed to assail The Undying Lands. Sauron was ever at the core of the destruction of this land, but the Valar steered it to its watery grave. 

The similarities are striking between the two, but my question is; Do you think Tolkien based Númenor on the original story of Atlantis by Plato or was it simply the fruits of his own imaginings and not inspired by Greek Mythology? 
Is there an alternative explanation; does it serve a purpose for Númenor to have been ever created by Tolkien as it doesn't really seem to fit that snugly into the histories of both Elves and Men? Why did Tolkien write about Númenor?


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## BelDain (Jul 10, 2002)

I'm not sure why you think Númenor doesn't fit into the history of Elves and Men but I do know the Quenya name for Númenor after its fall was Atalantë.
I think Tolkien was obviously influenced by the myths and legends of our own Earth in creating the history of his world of Middle-earth.


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## Ancalagon (Jul 10, 2002)

Okidoki, let me rephrase that 'it doesnt really fit in' as it is not really specified in the context of my train of thought. The actual creation of the Island for the purposes of the Edain does not really fit in to the story, when so much trouble was taken by the Ainur to create Middle-Earth specifically for both the First and Secondborn. 

Realistically, why should the Valar has ever considered creating Numenor when in actual fact it was more of a 'carrot on a stick', leaving Numenoreans within visual range of The Undying Lands, yet forbidden to actually go there. So what purpose did Numenor actually serve? Surely it would have served the Valar better to make Middle-Earth more habitable than expend so much energy on an Island, in the middle of the Belegaer?


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## Darth Saruman (Jul 10, 2002)

Yes, just like 

Shire=England
Harad=Africa
Valinor=Heaven
Mordor=Germany


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## Cian (Jul 10, 2002)

The legend was to be part of a "time travel" story. Then there's Tolkien's self-described "Atlantis-haunting" ~ the Prof. bequeathing the dream of the Wave to Faramir (and inherited by one of his children!).



> "N. is my personal alteration of the Atlantis myth and/or tradition, and accommodation of it to my general mythology. Of all the mythical or 'archetypal' images this is the one most deeply seated in my imagination, and for many years I had a recurrent Atlantis dream: the stupendous and ineluctable wave advancing from the Sea or over the land, sometimes dark, sometimes green and sunlit." JRRT


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## Ancalagon (Jul 10, 2002)

Walter has just informed me of the many references to Numenor in Tolkiens letters, which I am still waiting for from Amazon

However, there were other questions in the text, so fire away


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## Maedhros (Jul 10, 2002)

Ancalagon the Black, the mightiest of the dragon-host


> Do you think Tolkien based Númenor on the original story of Atlantis by Plato or was it simply the fruits of his own imaginings and not inspired by Greek Mythology?


From the letters of JRRT 227:


> Númenor, shortened form of Númenórë, is my own invention, compounded from numē-n, 'going down' (√ndū, nu), sunset. West, and nōrë 'land, country' = Westernesse. The legends of Númenórë are only in the background of The Lord of the Rings, though (of course) they were written first, and are only summarised in Appendix A. They are my own use for my own purposes of the Atlantis legend, but not based on special knowledge, but on a special personal concern with this tradition of the culture-bearing men of the Sea, which so profoundly affected the imagination of peoples of Europe with westward-shores.


He was inspired by Greek mythos as many of us.


> does it serve a purpose for Númenor to have been ever created by Tolkien as it doesn't really seem to fit that snugly into the histories of both Elves and Men? Why did Tolkien write about Númenor?


I think it does because in this way Tolkien made the Valar "seem" as thought they were "unbiased" toward the race of Men.
I mean, they go to a lot of trouble for the elves, but don't do squat about Men, when they first arrived in ME.


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## Ancalagon (Jul 10, 2002)

Realistically they don't do squat for Men in Numenor either. If things get out of hand, wipe it off the face of the earth! Not much of a method there really when it comes to dealing with the Numenorens. 

The Valar aren't exactly renowned for their tact and diplomacy are they. Tolkien seems to have drawn a fine line between the generosity and wrath of the Gods, very much like those of Norse, Greek and Middle-European mythology. 

While Sauron spent his days corrupting the Numenoreans, the Valar did nothing to address them, even though they were fully aware of the weakness of men and the ease by which they could be manipulated. Surely the fact that mankind could be so easily manipulated should have persuaded the Valar to make more concerted efforts to redeem these people whom they apparently thought so highly off after the Great War.


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## Rangerdave (Jul 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Darth Saruman _
> *Yes, just like
> 
> Shire=England
> ...




Ok, I'll give you the association of the Shire with England (more specifically the south of England) It makes sense that Tolkien would pattern the Home of his heroes after "Garden England". But the other three seem to be a bit suppositional. Now don't get me wrong. I am not one to argue the finer points of critical analysis or speculative conjecture with anyone; especially someone who reads. That being said however, I feel that making blanket assumptions about the geography of Middle Earth having real world counterparts is ulitmately a fruitless endeavor. 

The one example given that is the most debatable is your association of Germany with Mordor. Given the physical descriptions of Mordor and the distance and direction from the Shire, a good arguement could be made for another of the Central Powers. If one to assume that Hobbiton is analogous to Oxford, then Barad Dur would be located somewhere relatively close to Istanbul. (or Constantinople if you remember the song)
This would make Mordor the Ottoman Empire rather than Germany. The Anatolian highlands of the Empire also seem to be a better match for the physical descriptions of Mordor.

As I said before, this is only one of many aguable Real World analogies for Middle Earth locations. I have no arguement with your findings, but I would simply remind you that all associations are speculative. And as Professor Tolkien once remarked "One should not confuse Analogy for Applicability. 

Good response none the less.
RD


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## Walter (Jul 11, 2002)

> Mordor=Germany


This analogy surely can't be a geographical one, like the others given. If anything at all an analogy can be drawn in the political sense, for Tolkien loathed the NS-regime in germany...

As for the topic of this thread, JRR Tolkien seemed to have been very "fascinated" by the Atlantis-myth, to say the least. He referred to it many times in his Letters, and mostly referred to Numenor as to "Numenor-Atlantis". Aside from the quotes already given by Cian & Maedhros, which already show that there was much more than just a faint or coincidental analogy, we find:


> ...At the moment that Arpharazôn set foot on the forbidden shore, a rift appeared: Númenor foundered and was utterly overwhelmed; the armada was swallowed up; and the Blessed Realm removed for ever from the circles of the physical world. Thereafter one could sail right round the world and never find it.
> So ended Númenor-Atlantis and all its glory. But in a kind of Noachian situation the small party of the Faithful in Númenor, who had refused to take part in the rebellion (though many of them had been sacrificed in the Temple by the Sauronians) escaped in Nine Ships...
> Letter# 156





> ...I say this about the 'heart', for I have what some might call an Atlantis complex. Possibly inherited, though my parents died too young for me to know such things about them, and too young to transfer such things by words. Inherited from me (I suppose) by one only of my children, though I did not know that about my son until recently, and he did not know it about me. I mean the terrible recurrent dream (beginning with memory) of the Great Wave, towering up, and coming in ineluctably over the trees and green fields. (I bequeathed it to Faramir.) I don't think I have had it since I wrote the 'Downfall of Númenor' as the last of the legends of the First and Second Age...
> Letter# 163





> ...What I might call my Atlantis-haunting. This legend or myth or dim memory of some ancient history has always troubled me. In sleep I had the dreadful dream of the ineluctable Wave, either coming out of the quiet sea, or coming in towering over the green inlands. It still occurs occasionally, though now exorcized by writing about it. It always ends by surrender, and I awake gasping out of deep water...
> Letter# 257





> ...I really wanted to make, a new version of the Atlantis legend. The final scene survives as The Downfall of Númenor...
> Letter# 294


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## emopansy (Jul 11, 2002)

*the valar and the maiar are not rathfull as were the greek/roman gods*

when you rag on the valar for defending themselves from numenor it was illvatar( manwee came to him in prair and in sorro) there rath isnt spent upon the children of illvatar unless there are perverted by the dark


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## Dol Amroth (Jul 14, 2002)

> *If anything at all an analogy can be drawn in the political sense, for Tolkien loathed the NS-regime in germany... *



Why be so eager to determine such narrow bounds for works such as those of Tolkien? Surely you see how much "The Lord of the Rings" is reduced if you approach it with such restrictive premises as 'Mordor + Nazi Germany'. Tolkien himself stated that no such close associations were intended, and we are better off contemplating his fiction as an example of evil, not a parrallel of a specific historical evil. When we try to de-code works of art in such a constricted way we lose sight of the work we are actually considering and strip the tapestry down to the barest of threads; threads which we often twist and distort to fit what we think the pattern should be.


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## Gil-Galad (Jul 14, 2002)

Although it can be made a comparisson between Tolkien's world and World War II,I don't think Darth Saruman is right.No way.


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## Ancalagon (Jul 14, 2002)

One must also remember that Tolkien was well read in Germanic Myth as well as speaking German, so he was not so easily blinded by the trials of War than many think.

Yet, regarding the need for the inclusion of Atlantis/Numenor? Why was it essential to build Numenor into this story when realistically the Valar should have concentrated their efforts on amending Middle-Earth and making it more habitable for Men?


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## Rangerdave (Jul 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Walter _
> *This analogy surely can't be a geographical one, like the others given. If anything at all an analogy can be drawn in the political sense, for Tolkien loathed the NS-regime in germany...*



Of course it can. Since Professor Tolkien was adamant about his work not being analogy for anything, then one hypothetical supposition is just as valid as any other. In short, there is no right answer because the author insists the question is invalid. 

The whole point of making the silly geographical reference was to show the problems with making Middle-Earth/Real-World comparisons.

It was never my purpose to offend.
My apologies

RD


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## Maedhros (Jul 15, 2002)

> Yet, regarding the need for the inclusion of Atlantis/Numenor? Why was it essential to build Numenor into this story when realistically the Valar should have concentrated their efforts on amending Middle-Earth and making it more habitable for Men?


Why Ancalagon, the answer is of course that the Valar messed up again. They had that bad habit. With great power comes great responsability and little happiness.


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## Walter (Jul 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ancalagon _
> Yet, regarding the need for the inclusion of Atlantis/Numenor? Why was it essential to build Numenor into this story when realistically the Valar should have concentrated their efforts on amending Middle-Earth and making it more habitable for Men?


IMO the answer is plain and simple: JRR Tolkien had a "thingy" for Atlantis, hence it just had to appear somewhere in his mythology...


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## Ancalagon (Jul 18, 2002)

Well that just about rounds up this thread.........NEXT


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