# Glorfindel or Ecthelion - who is a greater elf?



## Ithrynluin

Let's compare Glorfindel and Ecthelion, two Balrog slayers.

Glorfindel:
- slew *a* Balrog
- helped the Fellowship in the 3rd Age (assuming the two Glorfindels are one and the same)

Ecthelion:
- slew *the* Balrog (so to speak) - Gothmog, who was the mightiest Balrog

Which would you say was greater overall?


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## Link

I'd say they were the same......


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## Celebithil

*Ecthelion*

As you say Ecthelion slew THE Balrog and the description of him at the 7th gath in UT is one that really inspires a sense of awe and power.


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## Ithrynluin

I think they are both pretty much equal in deeds. Nonetheless, I vote for Glorfindel because he helped Frodo & co. (and the One Ring would perhaps had fallen to the enemy if it weren't for him), and because he helped in the wars with Angmar, in addition to killing a Balrog.
I think there was a reason that HE of all Elves was sent back to Middle Earth, to aid Elrond and Gandalf. That speaks of his greatness.


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## Confusticated

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *I think there was a reason that HE of all Elves was sent back to Middle Earth, to aid Elrond and Gandalf. That speaks of his greatness. *



Well he was a Noldo and had lived in Middle-earth during Morgoth's hell raising, as opposed to the Vanyar. If it was because of his great act of sacrifice that he was released earlier from Mandos than the majority of the Noldor were, then this might put him and Ecthelion (said to be a Noldo in BoLT, but I do not know about elsewhere) in equal positions; that is, both could have been released from Mandos sooner than the majority of the exiled Noldor.

My best answer to those who ask why it was Glorfindel and not Ecthelion that was sent back to Middle-earth is just this: I don't think it is known, but why couldn't we suppose that Ecthelion might have had a reason to stay in Valinor. Maybe he had a wife or children there or for some reason was unwilling to go.

I think both might have done the same thing if in the other's position.

I can't say if one is greater as we do not (as far as I have read, and correct me if you know where it is said) know when Ecthelion was rehoused, or what became of him at all.


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## Ithrynluin

> Well he was a Noldo and had lived in Middle-earth during Morgoth's hell raising, as opposed to the Vanyar.



Well perhaps I should have said "I think there was a reason that HE of all '*Elves who died and were eventually rehoused*' was sent back" instead of saying:



> I think there was a reason that HE of all Elves was sent back to Middle Earth



His fight with the Balrog was an act of sacrifice, to secure the passage for Idril, Tuor and young Eärendil. What was Ecthelion's "motive"? Was it more of a self-defensive nature than a sacrifice?



> My best answer to those who ask why it was Glorfindel and not Ecthelion that was sent back to Middle-earth is just this: I don't think it is known, but why couldn't we suppose that Ecthelion might have had a reason to stay in Valinor. Maybe he had a wife or children there or for some reason was unwilling to go.
> I think both might have done the same thing if in the other's position.



But we must in the end base our decisions on the published texts. For example, I know you're not too fond of Fëanor because of his deeds, but what if he did something good or what if his motives were purer than you (and I) think and we just haven't got the chance to read about them because Tolkien didn't put his thoughts into words. That's why I believe we must not use too many "what ifs" and decide on the basis of the text.

Perhaps Tolkien himself thought that Glorfindel was greater since he decided to send him back to Middle Earth and since he said:



> For long years he remained in Valinor, in reunion with the Eldar who had not rebelled, and in the companionship of the Maiar. To these he had now become almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate (to whom a bodily form not made or chosen by himself was necessary) his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by his self-sacrifice.



Glorfindel was become even as one of the Maiar in personal power, which is saying a lot about him.

Tolkien decided to elaborate his character further in HOME XII which I suppose could be saying a lot as to why Glorfindel came back.


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## Maedhros

> Nonetheless, I vote for Glorfindel because he helped Frodo & co. (and the One Ring would perhaps had fallen to the enemy if it weren't for him), and because he helped in the wars with Angmar, in addition to killing a Balrog.


No way is Glorfindel "greater than Echtelion"
From the _Book of Lost Tales II: The Fall of Gondolin_


> Tuor stood then in the way of that beast, but was sundered from Egalmoth, and they pressed him backward even to the centre of the square nigh the fountain. There he became weary from the strangling heat and was beaten down by a great demon, even Gothmog lord of Balrogs, son of Melko. But lo! Ecthelion, whose face was of the pallor of grey steel and whose shield-arm hung limp at his side, strode above him as he fell; and that Gnome drave at the demon, yet did not give him his death, getting rather a wound to his sword-arm that his weapon left his grasp. *Then leapt Ecthelion lord of the Fountain, fairest of the Noldoli*, full at Gothmog even as he raised his whip, and his helm that had a spike upon it he drave into that evil breast, and he twined his legs about his foeman's thighs; and the Balrog yelled and fell forward; but those two dropped into the basin of the king's fountain which was very deep. There found that creature his bane; and Ecthelion sank steel-laden into the depths, and so perished the lord of the Fountain after fiery battle in cool waters.


Notice that in the combat between Echtelion lord of the Fountains, he was already wounded before fighting Gothmog, unlike Glorfindel when he fought a Balrog.
There is also the fact that Eärendil was very fond of Echtelion. From the _Book of Lost Tales II: The Fall of Gondolin_


> Yet Tuor set a strict watch, and himself slept not. Here they made one meal of scanty food and broken meats; and Eärendel quenched his thirst and played beside a little brook. Then said he to his mother: "Mother Idril, I would we had good Ecthelion of the Fountain here to play to me on his flute, or make me willow-whistles! Perchance he has gone on ahead?" But Idril said nay, and told what she had heard of his end. Then said Eärendel that he cared not ever to see the streets of Gondolin again, and he wept bitterly


The question that you have to ask is, why did Glorfindel return from Valinórë to Middle-earth. I always thought that it was a slip of the reuse of the name Glorfindel, and the professor, instead of changing the name, made up an explanation for it.
Notice that when the Tales were made, and no such duality of Glorfindel exists, he mentions that Echtelion of the Fountains is the fairest of the Noldoli.


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## Ithrynluin

The fact that he is the "fairest of the Noldoli" means absolutely squat to me. The poll is not about measuring physical beauty (or any kind of beauty for that matter), but for comparing the deeds of the two Elf-lords.
The fact that Eärendil was fond of Ecthelion is also irrelevant.
Speaking of fondness or greatfulness, Eärendil must have been quite fond of or grateful to Glorfindel don't you think? After all he did save his life. I don't think that Ecthelion's "flute playing" quite measures up. 

The fact that he was wounded when he engaged Gothmog in combat does speak highly of him indeed. Glorfindel is still my first choice, though Ecthelion is close behind.

Whether Tolkien intended for the two Glorfindels to be one and the same from the very beginning is not that important. He obviously made a conscious choice that they were later on, and Glorfindel obviously held some great importance to him.


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## Confusticated

> _posted by ithrynluin_*
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> Well he was a Noldo and had lived in Middle-earth during Morgoth's hell raising, as opposed to the Vanyar.
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> Well perhaps I should have said "I think there was a reason that HE of all 'Elves who died and were eventually rehoused' was sent back" instead of saying:
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> I think there was a reason that HE of all Elves was sent back to Middle Earth
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> His fight with the Balrog was an act of sacrifice, to secure the passage for Idril, Tuor and young Eärendil. What was Ecthelion's "motive"? Was it more of a self-defensive nature than a sacrifice?
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> My best answer to those who ask why it was Glorfindel and not Ecthelion that was sent back to Middle-earth is just this: I don't think it is known, but why couldn't we suppose that Ecthelion might have had a reason to stay in Valinor. Maybe he had a wife or children there or for some reason was unwilling to go.
> I think both might have done the same thing if in the other's position.
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> But we must in the end base our decisions on the published texts. For example, I know you're not too fond of Fëanor because of his deeds, but what if he did something good or what if his motives were purer than you (and I) think and we just haven't got the chance to read about them because Tolkien didn't put his thoughts into words. That's why I believe we must not use too many "what ifs" and decide on the basis of the text.
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> Perhaps Tolkien himself thought that Glorfindel was greater since he decided to send him back to Middle Earth and since he said:
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> For long years he remained in Valinor, in reunion with the Eldar who had not rebelled, and in the companionship of the Maiar. To these he had now become almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate (to whom a bodily form not made or chosen by himself was necessary) his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by his self-sacrifice.
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> Glorfindel was become even as one of the Maiar in personal power, which is saying a lot about him.
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> Tolkien decided to elaborate his character further in HOME XII which I suppose could be saying a lot as to why Glorfindel came back.*


The quotes in italics within that quote are mine, the last one is from PoMe, the other is ithrynluin's from his earlier post.

You split my first paragraph down the middle and looked at the first part alone, where it is nearly pointless.
My point was not that he might have been chosen because only because he was a Noldo who lived in Middle-earth during the first age, but because he was unlike other Noldor, except maybe Ecthelion ( so I speculate) in that he was allowed into Valinor, and did not stay long in Mandos, and that is in part because of his great deed.

There lies my answer to your new formed statement...



> I think there was a reason that HE of all 'Elves who died and were eventually rehoused'



...because of the rehoused Noldor (who knows when they were rehoused???as early as was Glorfindel??) were not (according to my interpretation based on the writings in PoMe, to which you refer) just allowed back into Valinor.

You imply that Glorfinel's motive was entirely sarcrifice, but that Ecthelions might have been only self-defense.

Both warriors were in danger.

Glorfindel was among those fleeing Gondolin and faced with a balrog... his life was in as much danger as the others.

Now Ecthelion got up wounded and saved the life of Tuor and others in the King's square, although is life too was in danger at the time. 


Also, they both did great things during the Nirnaeth. But mind you, Ecthelion slew the Lord of balrogs while seriously wounded... and (imo) that says a little more about the greatnes of the deed.

Maedhros posted: "I always thought that it was a slip of the reuse of the name Glorfindel, and the professor, instead of changing the name, made up an explanation for it."
That is also what I have thought, and though I took hell from someone for saying it, they did not change my mind.

PS: When I say that i suspect both might have done the same in the other's position, I mean that we can not be sure that Glorfindel would not have been able to take down Gothmog, or that Ecthelion could not have done wwhat Glorfindel did after he was sent back to Middle-earth.


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## Inderjit S

Ecthelion. 

I think the reason why Glorfindel was released so early by Namo, was because of his relatively innocent deeds in the rebellion of the Nodlor, as HoME 12 states. In terms of pyshical prowess, IMO it was Ecthelion. But then again, if we are talking about the mightiest of the lords of Gondolin, then Galdor, Rog and Eglamoth could all be there as well and not forgetting our 8ft+ giant of a man, Tuor, and the even taller Turgon.go



> His fight with the Balrog was an act of sacrifice, to secure the passage for Idril, Tuor and young Eärendil. What was Ecthelion's "motive"? Was it more of a self-defensive nature than a sacrifice



To save Tuor.



> There he became weary from the strangling heat and was beaten down by a great demon, even Gothmog lord of the Balrogs. But lo!...Ecthelion strode above him as he fell; and that Gnome drave at the demon --->BoLT 2-Fall of Gondolin


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## Gil-Galad

hmhmhm........maybe Glorfindel,I'm not sure whether he is greater than Echtelion,but I like him.


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## Ecthelion

Ecthelion is obviously better all round, to me anyway.


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## Ithrynluin

> _Originally posted by Ecthelion _
> *Ecthelion is obviously better all round, to me anyway. *



Please elaborate why you think he is "better all around".


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## Inderjit S

> Please elaborate why you think he is "better all around".




Because he is better looking....  

I think he means 'better all round' in a fighting sense. am I right?


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## Melko Belcha

With the information given to us I find it hard to decide. What part did they play in The Battle of Unumbered Tears or any earlier battle? Because of the Appendix in LOTR we learn more of Glorfindel then we know of Ecthelion. But that does not mean that he did more or less than the other so I'm undecided.


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## Beleg

Ecthelion. 

The Quote's provided by Meadhros for me tipped the balance in favor of Ecthelion. Glorifindel however in not very far behind.


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## Melko Belcha

The Return of the Shadow - At Rivendell


> Consultation. Over M[isty] M[ountains}. Down Great River to Mordor. Dark Tower. Beyond (?) Which is Fiery Hill. Story of Gilgalald told by Elrond? Who is Trotter? Glorfindel tells of his ancestry in Gondolin.


This note was written in the summer of 1938 when Bingo was still the main character and Trotter a Hobbit.

Christopher Tolkien writes


> Also very notable is 'Glorfindel tells of his ancestry in Gondolin'. Years later, long after the publication of The Lord of the Rings, my father gave a great deal of thought to Glorfindel, and at that time he wrote: "[ The use of Glorfindel} in The Lord of the Rings is one of the cases of the somewhat random use of the names found in the older legends, now referred to as The Silmarillion, which escaped reconsideration in the final published form of The Lord of the Rings.' He came to the conclusion that Glorfindel of Rivendell were one and the same: he was released from Mandos and returned to Middle-earth in the Second Age.


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## Rain-King

Ecthelion was quite clearly the greater Elf for several reasons. He slew Gothmog, lorg of the Balrogs. but died in the attempt.
Glorfindel slew only a regular Balrog and died in the attempt.
Other noteworthy factors are that Ecthelion was injured during his fight and weary from battle. Additionally, Gothmog was more than just a better Balrog, he was better equipped. The battle of unnumbered tears tells of his armour, suggesting that Balrogs (with the exception of Gothmog) wore no armour. 

This is all very well but quite clearly, Fingolfin was greater than them both.


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## Ithrynluin

> _Originally posted by Rain-King _
> *This is all very well but quite clearly, Fingolfin was greater than them both. *



If you are referring to their prowess in battle, I disagree. Both Glorfindel and Ecthelion could have done the amount of damage to Morgoth that Fingolfin did IMO. But this is not about Fingolfin anyway.

Welcome to the forums.


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## Rain-King

Thanks, that comment about Fingolfin was not meant to be talked about, just me expressing my opinion for no reason, it was just an afterthought. One thing that seems apparent to me is that both Glorfindel and Ecthelion seemed to rely on their strength in their respective fights whereas Fingolfin relied on finesse, dodging Morgoth's blows rather than trying to block with his shield. Thus you might expect his individual hits to deal less damage but the fact that he made seven and then took Morgoth's foot off is quite an acheivement.


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## Ecthelion

Well, the poll doesn't lie and it looks like Ecthelion is the greater elf (for now anyway)


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## Inderjit S

> For long years he remained in Valinor in reunion with the Eldar that had not rebelled, and in the companionship of the Maiar...his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by his self-sacrifice...


 HoME 12; Last Writings

Near equality with the Maia is no mean feat. Thius it is probable that after re-incarnation Glorfindel was the more powerful Elf.


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## Rain-King

Don't mean to accuse but I do believe that quote is made up or in some way materialized or misquoted. Tolkein only specified by word of Mouth the details as to whether Glorfindel was one and the same. He said that he thought so which implies a yes but such was the wording of {Christopher} Tolkein pertaining questions about his works that we can enver be sure. It was never proven in a book (as far as I know). Feel free to correct me on this, please provide a source reference though. Glorfindel was, indeed a powerful Elf though after his reincarnation or Glorfindell II was a powerful Elf nevertheless. He lived partially in the mortal world and partially in the spirit world and was powerful in both.

<Later Edit>
My apologies, Melko has already quoted what I am referring to.


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## Tar-Elenion

If you are refering to the quote Inderjit supplied, it is not 'made up' or 'misquoted'. Inderjit cited the book it is from (HoME 12) and the section (Last Writings).


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## Inderjit S

> Don't mean to accuse but I do believe that quote is made up or in some way materialized or misquoted.



Yeah I'm in the habit of making up quotes to back up my judgments. Get your facts right before accusing people of materializing or misquoting things.    





> Tolkein only specified by word of Mouth the details as to whether Glorfindel was one and the same. He said that he thought so which implies a yes but such was the wording of {Christopher} Tolkein pertaining questions about his works that we can enver be sure



Wrong. Glorfindel, from the beginning had been a Elf of Gondolin, re-incarnated, or at least Tolkien had pondered it for a while.

His heroic end stretches all the way back to The Lost Tales legendarium, as seen by his death in FoG. (BoLT2). We can see that in the 'Latter Annals of Beleriand' of HoME 5, which encompassed all Tolkien's pre-LoTR work on the 1st age, Glorfindel’s ends still remained:



> They fell into ambush there and Glorfindel of the Golden House of Gondolin was slain



Looking at the drafts for LoTR, it is apparent that Tolkien imagined Glorfindel of Gondolin and of LoTR to be the same person.



> 'Glorfindel tells of his ancestry in Gondolin'


HoME 6; At Rivendell

Tolkien writes a mini-essay on Glorfindel’s re-incarnation in HoME 12. It is entitled 'Last Writings'.


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## Maeglin

This is an old thread that I just found....but I must say that Glorfindel is better (surprise surprise right?). Anyway...I say it because Glorfindel actually meant to kill his balrog, Ecthelion just got his spiked head stuck in THE balrog and they both ended up drowning...and the whole city fell anyway, so what good was that? Glorfindel, on the other hand, slew a balrog that allowed the refugees to get away (Turin Turambar and Elwing included, 2 of the most important figures in the Sil). Also, Glorfindel rescued/protected Frodo from the Black Riders at the ford. What more do you need? So there you have it, Glorfindel is the best!


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## Maedhros

> Anyway...I say it because Glorfindel actually meant to kill his balrog, Ecthelion just got his spiked head stuck in THE balrog and they both ended up drowning...and the whole city fell anyway, so what good was that?


Only that he saved Tuor's life.


> (Turin Turambar and Elwing included, 2 of the most important figures in the Sil).


I think that you need to get your facts straightened first.


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## Maeglin

Turin, Tuor.....Idril, Elwing...what's the difference?! If you had only read the Sil once you would get the names confused too! Maybe not Idril and Elwing...but Turin and Tuor you would!! 
And are you sure Ecthelion actually saved him? I thought Tuor had already left the city at this point...


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## Maedhros

> And are you sure Ecthelion actually saved him? I thought Tuor had already left the city at this point...


From _The Book of Lost Tales II: The Fall of Gondolin_


> Tuor stood then in the way of that beast, but was sundered from Egalmoth, and they pressed him backward even to the centre of the square nigh the fountain. There he became weary from the strangling heat and was beaten down by a great demon, even Gothmog lord of Balrogs, son of Melko. But lo! Ecthelion, whose face was of the pallor of grey steel and whose shield-arm hung limp at his side, strode above him as he fell; and that Gnome drave at the demon, yet did not give him his death, getting rather a wound to his sword-arm that his weapon left his grasp.


Yes, I'm sure.


> Turin, Tuor.....Idril, Elwing...what's the difference?


Then what's the difference between Ecthelion and Glorfindel.


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## Khôr’nagan

Ecthelion may have been the better fighter, but Glorfindel was, by far, the coolest Elf. And Elvish coolness is 90% of how good of an elf you are, so Glorfindel totally wins. I mean, how cool is it that he died (killing a Balrog), went to Mandos, got let out (re-incarnated) and got sent beck to Middle-Earth? Then, he fought with the Nazgul (more specifically the Witch King of Angmar) _and_ helped to drive off the Nazgul at the Ford of Bruinen. He then proceeded to fight in the many battles between the Elvish lands and the forces of Dol Guldur/Mordor. I don't know about you, but on a scale from 1*!* to 10*!*, Glorfindel gets a 362,880 (same as Legolas). Of course, he can't possibly get as good as Fingolfin (the BEST ELF EVER!!!), who's coolness rating is a full 3,628,800. Eclthelion gets a 40,320. No one can get as good as Fingolfin (aint that right, Rain-King?)

Okay, enough crazyness. Ecthelion was the better _fighter_, but Glorfindel was the greater _Lord_. They just about even out, each with a 9 (on a 1-10 scale). Legolas and Fingolfin also recieve 9's, (though they are _so_ much cooler), and Feanor recieves a 10 (he was the greatest Elf that ever lived; and that's a fact).

Well, that's my opinion.


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## Maeglin

Okay....a bit strange, but whatever floats your boat. I don't see how you give Legolas such a high rating...but this is not the correct forum to discuss that. But I do agree with your thoughts on how Ecthelion is a better fighter while Glorfindel is a greater Lord.


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## Kahmûl

In my opinion Glorfindel is the greater elf.


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## Maedhros

From _The Book of Lost Tales II: The Fall of Gondolin_


> Then there was carnage at the barriers, and Egalmoth and Tuor went from place to place of the defence, *but Ecthelion lay by the fountain; and that stand was the most stubborn-valiant that is remembered in all the songs or in any tale.* Yet at long last a drake bursts the barrier to the north -- and there had once been the issue of the Alley of Roses and a fair place to see or to walk in, but now there is but a lane of blackness and it is filled with noise.
> Tuor stood then in the way of that beast, but was sundered from Egalmoth, and they pressed him backward even to the centre of the square nigh the fountain. There he became weary from the strangling heat and was beaten down by a great demon, even Gothmog lord of Balrogs, son of Melko. *But lo! Ecthelion, whose face was of the pallor of grey steel and whose shield-arm hung limp at his side, strode above him as he fell; and that Gnome drave at the demon, yet did not give him his death, getting rather a wound to his sword-arm that his weapon left his grasp. Then leapt Ecthelion lord of the Fountain, fairest of the Noldoli, full at Gothmog even as he raised his whip, and his helm that had a spike upon it he drave into that evil breast, and he twined his legs about his foeman's thighs; and the Balrog yelled and fell forward; but those two dropped into the basin of the king's fountain which was very deep. There found that creature his bane; and Ecthelion sank steel-laden into the depths, and so perished the lord of the Fountain after fiery battle in cool waters*.


I think that one of the reasons that Ecthelion is not voted more is because people, have not really read the _Tale of the Fall of Gondolin_ in Bolt2.


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## Confusticated

Both were so great that it doesn't really matter who was greater. Those who loved Glorfindel or were saved by him (or someone they love was saved by him) would pick him maybe, and the same for Ecthelion.

Like many of the Noldor these were valiant and honourable elves, and they were given the opportunity to make one of the biggest sacrifices possible, and they chose to give their life for others. They could not have lived if they wouldn't have done what they done.

Let me step between a balrog and somebody else, then maybe I'll be fit to judge it?

I feel that for me to raise one above the other would be disrespectful to the other. I guess opinions change over time - and for the better!:*)

Both had achieved _total greatness_.


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## Bucky

Silly question....

But silly questions follow the two most overblown minor subjects in Middle-earth:

Balrogs
and
Glorfindel

People seem to insist on getting anal about these two subjects ad nauseum for as long as I can remember, like:

'If Glorfindel was one of the Fellowship and the Balrog had gotten the Ring from Frodo in Moria and set himself up as a Dark Lord, would Glorfindel have been able to challenge him for the mastry of Middle-earth (at least until he met Sauron)' and then write a 3,000 word paper on the subject with nary a fact to back up their opinion gone wild. :*p


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## Confusticated

Well speculating off into ones own fiction can be it's own reward for the imaginative.:*D


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## Turgon

10 points to Bucky for using the word _nary_, man I love that word!


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## Confusticated

I think you've seen me use it! Give me points too!!


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## Turgon

Okay, without having any proof, I will have to trust to your honesty and award you five points...^^


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## Confusticated

What does that bring my total to? :*p


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## Ithrynluin

Nóm said:


> I think you've seen me use it! Give me points too!!


 
I can vouch for that. Cough up the points, Turgon! :*D


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## Confusticated

Ivan's got my back... as usual! 

Lets swing this back around to the topic... I got an idea. Maybe what it really comes down to is presentation. I mean.... you're in the wilderness being hunted by an unstoppable enemy and a freakin High Elf comes riding up on a horse... somewhat heals you, and then the horse saves your life... along with Glorfy and them holding off the wraiths.... illumitation in the wraith world... Hard not to like that! If I was a man Glorfindel would make me gay (if i wasn't already!!). 

Don't you like it how in action movies this impossably capable guy or girl just shows up and takes names.... Glorfindel is the that guy of LoTR. And it makes you feel good and pumped up because maybe you're sort of vicariously being that badass guy! Or am I alone in engaging in heroic "protector" fantasies? 

But Ecthelion... no less capable than Glorfindel I don't think. He just didn't get presented as the most capable ass-kicker in the whole of Middle-earth, as the other Noldor around at that point were awesome too!:*p


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## Ecthelion74

*Ecthelion*. Gothmog was the Lord of Balrogs and the High-captain of Angband, one of the chief servants of the Dark Lord Morgoth with a rank equal to that of Sauron. 

Good infos with latest sources are here:
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Ecthelion 

_"In the battle over Gondolin, Ecthelion and his forces made their entrance from the South part of the city, after previously being held in reserve. So terrible was his voice when commanding the drawing of the swords and the killings which followed, that his name became a terror among the enemy and a Warcry to the Eldar. Valiantly fighting side by side with Tuor and his House of the Wing, they drove away the orcs until almost the Gate was regained. As Dragons reinforced Morgoth's army, Ecthelion killed three Balrogs and his sword did "hurt to their fire". Outnumbered, they had to retreat. When doing so, Ecthelion's left arm was wounded and his shield fell to earth. Tuor carried him away as they joined the remaining leaders in the Square of the King.

In that place the great Fountain of the King stood and Ecthelion regained his strength by drinking from it. As seven dragons lead the enemy's forces towards the Square, the remaining army of Gondolin began retreat. All but Ecthelion, who remained near the fountain in a stand which was remembered as the most valiant "in all the songs or in any tale". It was there that he faced Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs."
_
Thats my opinion.


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## Phuc Do

In my memory I remembered Glorfindel better. LOL, I had to read up on Ecthelion to post on this. I really can't put my finger on who of them were more powerful. Clearly Glorfindel is closer to my heart since I got to know him first through The Fellowship of the Ring.


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## Ron Simpson

"Greater" in terms of what? The question is fuzzy, so any answer can't be clear....
1. Nobility: they were both of noble blood and great lineage, and both considered great lords of their houses in Gondolin *(equal)*
2. Leadership: Turgon appointed both of them as co-captains of his host *(equal)*
3. Importance & Social Status: Ecthelion was lord of the fountain in the square of the King (*Ecthy wins this one)*
4. Best for Last: Turgon held back Ecthelion & his fighting forces as a last reserve in the defence of the city of Gondolin: you always save your best for last *(Ecthy wins this one)*
5. Fighting Prowess: Ecthelion slew 3 balrogs during the fall of Gondolin / Glorfindel only 1 *(Ecthy wins this one)*
_"By reason of the great doughtiness of those two lords [Tuor and Ecthelion] came even unto the Balrogs. Of those demons of power Ecthelion slew three, for the brightness of his sword cleft the iron of them and did hurt to their fire, and they writhed" / BoLT, Fall of Gondolin_
6. More Fighting Prowess: In the fall of Gondolin, Ecthelion slew 3 Orc field-captains, two of which he killed with one sweep of his sword! Holy Crap! _"but Ecthelion shore through two captains of the goblins at a sweep and cleft the head of Orcobal their chiefest champion to his teeth; / BoLT, Fall of Gondolin _*(Ecthy wins this one again)*
7. Even More Fighting Prowess: as has been mentioned above, Ecthelion then kills Gothmog with one hand tied behind his back..as it were (his shield arm was broken when he faced down the Lord of Balrogs) *(Ecthy wins yet again) *
8. Cahoneys & Courage: both were extraordinarily valiant facing down foes when the odds were against them with little to no regard for their own personal safety. Recall that Ecthelion engaged Gothmog while coming to the defence of Tuor who was overcome by fumes and about to be dispatched after being beaten down by the Balrog. And of course we all know that Glorfindel's response to the Balrog's attack was so immediate that he was fully engaged in combat before his men could even come to his aid. Neither of them was an elf you'd want to mess with .... *(equal)
*
But truth be told, Tolkien tells us more 1st Age stories about Ecthelion than he does about Glorfindel. So we might be short-changing Glorfindel because his narrative is so thin. Also he doesn't say much about the character of either elf when not on the battle-field - and when he does, its mostly about Ecthelion.

Not sure if it is worth talking about 're-born Glorfindel'. Fighting the minions of Sauron does not compare with fighting the minions of Morgoth. Yeah, yeah - I know that 're-born Glorfindel' scared the cloak off the Witch-King (who fled for his life like a little wuss) but a mortal sorcerer certainly ain't no Balrog (so not even worth talking about). Also, being a counsellor in the house of Elrond in no way compares with being a heavy-hitter of Gondolin. So, in my opinion, 're-born Glorfindel's' exploits count for very little within the context of this discussion.....

So my conclusion is this: Given we are talking about 1st Age Glorfindel vs. Ecthelion, as 'civilian elves', they were were pretty equal, but on the battlefield, Ecthelion wins hands down !



Maeglin said:


> This is an old thread that I just found....but I must say that Glorfindel is better (surprise surprise right?). Anyway...I say it because Glorfindel actually meant to kill his balrog, Ecthelion just got his spiked head stuck in THE balrog and they both ended up drowning...and the whole city fell anyway, so what good was that? Glorfindel, on the other hand, slew a balrog that allowed the refugees to get away (Turin Turambar and Elwing included, 2 of the most important figures in the Sil). Also, Glorfindel rescued/protected Frodo from the Black Riders at the ford. What more do you need? So there you have it, Glorfindel is the best!



Well, in life you can only play the hand you are dealt, and play the cards in front of you. The issue is how well you play the cards you get. Ecthelion certainly meant to kill him and that is what the spike was for. Moreover, he certainly would have engaged that Balrog on the high pass if fate had dealt him that hand, but it didn't. (Also Ecthelion slew 3 Balrogs during that battle / go back and read BoLT, Fall of Gondolin !


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## WarriorEstel

I think it is Ecthelion because he killed the "Balrog-King" Gothmog... Glorfindel just killed a balrog to save the refugees from death. And because of that he was reincarnated??? But well, i think Ecthelion should have been sent back to life, too...


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## Miguel

Inderjit S said:


> HoME 12; Last Writings
> 
> Near equality with the Maia is no mean feat. Thius it is probable that after re-incarnation Glorfindel was the more powerful Elf.



Yes but Glorfindel's fight is like the tragic/sacrifice/sad one while Ecthelion's is on a brutal 'at the alamo setting with lots of scary F.A. Orcs overwhelming everything, and then you don't see this character no more. O_f the fountain's _is in my opinion the most bad ass duel. 
It's also scary to think about those Orcs pushing Turgon's forces up some spiral staircase in his tower. Also, i find the wingless dragons to be creepier than the others.


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## ZehnWaters

Amarthon said:


> What a pointless exercise. They are both heroes. Ecthelion lived and returned to the Undying Lands. Glorfindel perished but was sent from the Halls of Mandos to aid Elrond against the Foe.
> Hail them both.


Ecthelion drowned in the fountain with Gothmog.

Glorfindel killed a Balrog but also returned to ME during the Second Age and, presumably, participated in all of the events there since. We know of his prophecy about the Witch-King.


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## Amarthon

My mistake. You are correct.


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## Annatar Lord Of Gifts

Ecthelion. Didn't he slay 3 Balrogs during the Fall Of Gondolin? I swear it says so in the Silmarillion...


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## Elthir

Not in the published [constructed] Silmarillion,* Annatar Lord of Gifts*. And Balrogs from _The Book of Lost Tales_ [very early text] have been characterized as: *"The early conception of Balrogs makes them less terrible, and certainly more destructible, than they afterwards became: . . ."* The Book of Lost Tales, The Fall of Gondolin, Commentary, Christopher Tolkien

And sadly, the updated, long prose _Fall of Gondolin_ [early 1950s] was abandoned before any balrogs appear. Then we have Tolkien's note that possibly only *three Balrogs, or at most seven*, ever existed, which throws another consideration into the mix -- despite that JRRT himself never revised every mention of "many" Balrogs in his own texts [for whatever reason].

Christopher Tolkien edited out explicit references to many Balrogs for his constructed Silmarillion, leaving the numbers vague enough.


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## CheriptheRipper

Ithrynluin said:


> I think there was a reason that HE of all Elves was sent back to Middle Earth, to aid Elrond and Gandalf. That speaks of his greatness.


Granted I don't know Ecthelion, so I'd like to say this makes him the greatest as well but at what point would we stop using this as an argument? 
Would we say, for instance he's a greater elf than Faenor because he didn't get sent back either 🤨
(Faenor sent back to where he died in this case)


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## Gloranthan

Didn't the Witch-King see Glorfindel on a city wall and run home screaming like a scared child? That is such a cool scene I have had to vote for Glorfindel. Ecthelion is cool, though.

Feanor is my favorite Elf, and Eol after him. Fingolfin edges out Glorfindel, because anyone who will bang on the gates of Hell and say, "Alright Satan, let's do this!" has Mithril stones. Glorfindel also has a great name.


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## Ent

Gloranthan said:


> Witch-King see Glorfindel on a city wall and run home screaming like a scared child?


Not sure where this scene would be found, but the Witch King and all nine riders fled into the river and got swept away by it, when Glorfindal, 'revealed in his wrath', came at them (with Aragorn) as Frodo made his escape into Rivendell.

All of them combined had no desire to face him. (That said, the other 8 without the King seem pretty much like ineffective wusses to me. (Assuming 'wusses' is a word.)


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## Tar-Elenion

Perhaps mis-remembering this incident at the Battle of Fornost:
"Then the Witch-king laughed, and none that heard it ever forgot the horror of that cry. But Glorfindel rode up then on his white horse, and in the midst of his laughter the Witch-king turned to flight and passed into the shadows. For night came down on the battlefield, and he was lost, and none saw whither he went."
LotR, App. A


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## ZehnWaters

CheriptheRipper said:


> Granted I don't know Ecthelion, so I'd like to say this makes him the greatest as well but at what point would we stop using this as an argument?
> Would we say, for instance he's a greater elf than Faenor because he didn't get sent back either 🤨
> (Faenor sent back to where he died in this case)


Morally. Though being morally greater than Fëanor isn't exactly an achievement.



Elthir said:


> And sadly, the updated, long prose _Fall of Gondolin_ [early 1950s] was abandoned before any balrogs appear. Then we have Tolkien's note that possibly only *three Balrogs, or at most seven*,


I'm very glad these never got complete integrated. The idea of only 3 Balrogs is depressing. The number of Maiar was never massive but I never conceived of it as being THAT small. That makes, what?, 4 Maiar in Melkor's service? 7 is more acceptable but I still prefer somewhere in the teens.


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## Gloranthan

ZehnWaters said:


> , 4 Maiar in Melkor's service? 7 is more acceptable but I still prefer somewhere in the teens.


Although JRR only gives a few examples I always thought of Maia of having a huge number. But most of them would be busy doing invisible things. Angels don't seem to be a tiny group by most reckonings.


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## Findekano_Astaldo

I find both of their characters pretty interesting, but Glorfindel _did_ get reborn, was that a testament to his prowess and achievements? But I have also seen other people asking (in person and whatnot) why Ecthelion did not get reborn... Glorfindel-after his rebirth- goes on to continue his deeds (like saving Frodo in the 3rd Age) so was there perhaps a purpose/direction for his rebirth? Haha, I have many questions, I guess.


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## Ent

Gloranthan said:


> always thought of Maia of having a huge number.


Melkor did have many Maiar in his service.

"For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror. Tolkien, J.R.R.. The Silmarillion (p. 23). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition. 

The Balrogs were just a few of the Maiar he deceived and drew.


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## Ent

Ent said:


> many were drawn to his splendour





Ent said:


> corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts



Interestingly it would seem from the above that Melkor did not corrupt the Maiar by 'superior power' (force).
They were either corrupted by their own choice... "being drawn by his splendor".... or by lies and deceit. 

So "power" (in terms of 'force') has little or nothing to do with corruption at any turn.


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## Gloranthan

Ent said:


> Interestingly it would seem from the above that Melkor did not corrupt the Maiar by 'superior power' (force).
> They were either corrupted by their own choice... "being drawn by his splendor".... or by lies and deceit.
> 
> So "power" (in terms of 'force') has little or nothing to do with corruption at any turn.


This is similar to what I was saying on another thread about Sauron and Superman...Sauron's 'power' was not shooting laser beams or throwing tanks. It was a spiritual dread that cowed others. The higher ranking Maia may have various 'powers', based on the forms they make on Arda, but what gives them mastery/the ability to overawe others is their 'spiritual hierarchy'. Which diminishes when they squander it but, with Melko and Sauron, they had a lot to squander before they were less-than your average Elf or Baggins. Once Sauron was made nothing but a shadow that gnaws on itself, it was truly 'lesser than' almost any Fea, and could no longer dominate men.


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## Ent

Gloranthan said:


> It was a spiritual dread that cowed others. The higher ranking Maia may have various 'powers', based on the forms they make on Arda, but what gives them mastery/the ability to overawe others is their 'spiritual hierarchy'


I'm struggling to reconcile the 'power' issues just a little.

We recall when Sauron's attention and thought were removed/switched from his armies to the Ring at the edge of the abyss at Mt. Doom, they were left completely adrift.

That speaks of a fear and dread certainly, but also some kind of a 'force' or control of mind. 

I'll keep dappling with it. 

But I need to stay focused for now on 'the great mystery of "Is". Something I began pondering earlier this morning that's consuming all my thoughts at the moment.


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## ZehnWaters

Ent said:


> I'm struggling to reconcile the 'power' issues just a little.
> 
> We recall when Sauron's attention and thought were removed/switched from his armies to the Ring at the edge of the abyss at Mt. Doom, they were left completely adrift.
> 
> That speaks of a fear and dread certainly, but also some kind of a 'force' or control of mind.
> 
> I'll keep dappling with it.
> 
> But I need to stay focused for now on 'the great mystery of "Is". Something I began pondering earlier this morning that's consuming all my thoughts at the moment.


Something similar to a geas perhaps? Or some kind of magical compulsion?


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## Gloranthan

ZehnWaters said:


> Something similar to a geas perhaps? Or some kind of magical compulsion?


Or a telepathy equivalent of persuasion/charisma.


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## Ent

I guess this is all a bit off the Thread topic, but it is very interesting.


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## Ent

Maybe we can search around and see if there's an appropriate thread for discussing the nature of the powers of the Valar, Maiar, Elves, Numenoreans, etc. 
What exactly is meant by 'lesser men' in its one reference, etc. 

Meanwhile, regarding the actual Thread topic, I must come back to the same concept Ent always pursues with such questions: 
"Define 'greater'". The answer may differ given the definition.


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## Elthir

Ent said:


> Melkor did have many Maiar in his service. ( . . .) The Balrogs were just a few of the Maiar he deceived and drew.



Correct O Ent.

We also have some Maiar-orcs, for example of another sort.



Findekano_Astaldo said:


> I find both of their characters pretty interesting, but Glorfindel _did_ get reborn, was that a testament to his prowess and achievements?



Generally speaking, it was the fate of the Elves to be reincarnated, if they desired it ***

Glorfindel was unique in that his body was restored in Aman before the Ban was lifted.

Tolkien notes that Glorfindel was an Elda of high and noble spirit, and it seems he left Aman [incurring the ban] reluctantly, had had no part in the kinslaying, but *"most importantly"* [JRRT] he'd sacrificed his life in defending the fugitives of Gondolin [including _Earendil_ of course], a deed of *"vital importance to the designs of the Valar"*

Thus, Goldilocks was purged of any guilt he had incurred from the Rebellion, released from Mandos, and Manwe restored him before the lifting of the Ban.

__________

** *the restoration of the body could be delayed by Manwe, if the Elf while alive had done evil deeds and refused to repent of them, or still harboured any malice against any other person among the living -- or in the gravest cases, such as Feanor, bodily restoration could be withheld and referred to the One.


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## ZehnWaters

Elthir said:


> Correct O Ent.
> 
> We also have some Maiar-orcs, for example of another sort.


Boldogs!


Elthir said:


> Generally speaking, it was the fate of the Elves to be reincarnated, if they desired it **
> 
> * *the restoration of the body could be delayed by Manwe, if the Elf while alive had done evil deeds and refused to repent of them, or still harboured any malice against any other person among the living -- or in the gravest cases, such as Feanor, bodily restoration could be withheld and referred to the One.


From my understanding, the Valar had to reincarnate the elves eventually but Manwë could essentially put it off until the end of the world.


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