# Elf anatomy



## gimli_alvevenn (Mar 19, 2002)

*Is Tolkien and todays man races the same?*

I was reading a thread today, when I came to think of one thing; Is the race of men in middle earth the same race that walk on the earth today? 
What diferencesare are there, if you do not think so?


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## Lantarion (Mar 19, 2002)

Yes I think so, because of the ending of the LotR: it ends with the beginning of the 4th Age, the Age of Men. This would mean that at that time the Elves, Dwarves and Hobbits (along with other non-human races) began to vanish, and Men became the ruling species on Earth (at least Middle-Earth). 
But in the old times depicted in the Sil and LotR (ie. Númenor, Beleriand, Arnor+Gondor) Men grew old slower and had longer lives (esp. Elros= 500 years!!), and they had stronger and more prevalent morals and codes of chivalry. Well, need I say more.


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## Anarchist (Mar 19, 2002)

I agree with Pontifex. Tolkien implied that the world of ME is the same world we live today and that slowly all the species left ME and only men remained there and so it is until today.


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## gimli_alvevenn (Mar 20, 2002)

> _Posted by Anarchist _
> 
> I agree with Pontifex. Tolkien implied that the world of ME is the same world we live today and that slowly all the species left ME and only men remained there and so it is until today.



Can we conclude that men are the strongest race in middle earth?


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## Meliaiel (Mar 20, 2002)

i think only Men remained in ME not because they were strongest;to my mind it just was doomed,it was the will of Iluvatar.because for example Elves indeed were a kind of,em,'higher' race than Men,still they left,and Edain stayed.


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## UngattTrunn475 (Mar 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Pontifex _
> *
> But in the old times depicted in the Sil and LotR (ie. Númenor, Beleriand, Arnor+Gondor) Men grew old slower and had longer lives (esp. Elros= 500 years!!), and they had stronger and more prevalent morals and codes of chivalry. Well, need I say more.  *



Elros was half-elven in the beginning, and the Valar gave him the choice to be either a elf, or a man. He chose to be a man, but he was granted a longer lifespan. So really, Elros wasn't fully man.


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## Nocturno (Mar 20, 2002)

As a general rule, we might be nearer to "lesser men" as Tolkien calls them.
Númenóreans were in many cases of mixed blood with elves and the rest were granted a greater lifespan due tu Valar will.
Men stronger?
I guess their strenght was supposed to lie in the fact that they multiplied heavily, and, since not inmortal, did not have time to grow weary of the world.
it appears dwarves and elves did not follow that pattern of fertility.
About hobbits, well, I'd hate to know what would happen to them centuries later if they were left alone with men...


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## Elbereth (Mar 21, 2002)

There is definately a connection with the races of men in Tolkien's books, with our written history. 

* If you look in the bible, you see many of the characters (Adam, Noah, ect...) living to be hundreds of years old. (Dunedain)

* It is known in learned circles that many ancient people were indeed much shorter than man is today (Hobbits). However, over time the race of man adapted and changed to suit their environment. Therefore men today are taller, have smaller skulls, and are generally weaker than our forefathers. (We even see today that in most western societies the current generation is healthier and smarter than our grandparents.) Therefore it is very possible to believe that Hobbits are still amoung us today. Tolkien himself, said that he considered himself to be a hobbit in everything but height. 

* We also hear of folklore talking of dwarfs and little people...who's to say that these creatures never existed? And who knows...if these creature can hide themselves so well, they could still be with us today. 

****That's Just a little food for thought.*****


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## ReadWryt (Mar 21, 2002)

Um...it's a mythology, lets not loose sight of that. Being a Mythology for England, set in an imaginary time some 6000 years ago, one could assume that Tolkien intended it, as nearly all Mythologies of the Earth are, to be the story of how Mankind started out and became what they are today. Name me one mythology that does not include Men...I don't think you will find one.


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## Nocturno (Mar 22, 2002)

Actually, mithology is supposed to be a residue on the back of our minds from ages long gone.
It is said that our short people and giant myths, are residues of thousands of years ago, when men actually fought with other man-like races for the dominion of earth.
It is a fact that the actual homo sapiens coexisted with other "branches" of protohumans (i.e. Neanderthals). Some were bigger, some were smaller. It seems humans almost wiped them from the face of the earth in those forgotten times.
Some may have joined our blood heritage by good old love.

My fun sometimes, when I walk on a big city's streets (like Mexico) is to try and connect myth with reality. Some people seem to have a lot of dwarf blood in them (too hairy, short, broad), some people might resemble elves (or the idea we have of them, as lighter in build, tall, etc.), and some might be cute and small enough to pass as hobbits... well, and some could have orcish blood, why not.

Wouldn't it be fun to think that modern humans are a fruit of the joining of different races? It would be nice to think they are all here with us to this day.


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## Elbereth (Mar 22, 2002)

I agree Nocturno...it would be nice to think that we are all derived from the many races of Middle Earth, and that in some way or another they are still here today.

Actually, about 8 years ago...(before I even read a Tolkien book), my friend and I came up with a theory of the origins of man (please bear in mind we were riding on a very mightly sugar high at the time)...

We believed that man derived from either sick monkeys or hairy hobbits. And the way you could tell if you are one or the other is by your toe hairs. Those people who have hair on their toes came from Hobbits, and those without came from sick monkeys. 

I know it is a silly theory...but we thought it was hillarious.


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## Glory (Mar 23, 2002)

well that would explain why my sister eat so much she is pretty much like a hobbit!!!


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## ReadWryt (Mar 23, 2002)

Um...so the Quest for the Grail and the Arthurian Mythology is based on some primordial memories in the genetics of mankind? I think not, nor do I think Homer's works relate such deep rooted memories. They all tend to relate fundimental struggles that are rich in humanity and commonality, but I think that you would be hard pressed to say that the stories of the Greek Gods were, in any way, based on actual experiences of ancient man...

Mythology is more often a way that the ancient and unsophisticated mind of early humanity attempted to explain the things that were beyond their comprehension. It is perfectly logical, given the lack of knowlege and intelect, for ancient peoples to believe that the world came into existence because a giant crow stole the seed for it from some Great Spirit, or that some God molded it with their hands and placed it on the back of a giant tortoise...or even that a great Diety sang, and the discordant accompaniment of his Angelic Beings made the world in all of it's rich complexity...what THESE things have to do with the realities of ancient peoples is beyond me, as I have not the experience of their world, nor their perception of it as it existed...but I seriously doubt that any of them actually saw a Tortoise large enough to support the Earth, or a Crow that large...


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## Úlairi (Mar 23, 2002)

I am curious, does anyone believe that the Elf anatomy was somewhat different to the anatomy of humankind. Luthien and Beren had a child so obviously the sexual reproduction organs were the same, I can't really think of anything different except the pointy ears! Any opinions???


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## Úlairi (Mar 23, 2002)

*Elf anatomy!*

I am curious, does anyone believe that the Elf anatomy was somewhat different to the anatomy of humankind. Luthien and Beren had a child so obviously the sexual reproduction organs were the same, I can't really think of anything different except the pointy ears! Any opinions???


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## daisy (Mar 23, 2002)

I am also fairly sure that Arwen and Aragorn had children and she was a full-blooded elf and he was a human - so reproduction was the way it usually is I believe - no hatching from pods.
I don't think there are many creatures in LOTR that did not reproduce the 'old-fashioned' way with the exception of course of orcs and some of the monstery things and the valar - I am pretty sure they were just there one day, although don't quote me on that!

No baby Gandalf is what I am saying - although this would have been a cute thing to see!


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## Úlairi (Mar 23, 2002)

Any takers???


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## Úlairi (Mar 23, 2002)

Yeah! That would be a sight to see. I can just imagine Manwe and Varda saying:

"Ohhhhh, isn't he a cutie! Goooogie, goooogie, goooooo!" says Varda.

"He takes after me, very wise kid!" says Manwe.


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## Wood Elf (Mar 23, 2002)

I think they pretty much had the same anatomy as humans, just better. Like a super-human. I also like to think their pointy ears was a way of distinguishing between elves and men. Elves also had a light in their eyes that was a special feature of elves (they are awesome!). Besides being more super-human, and having pointy ears and a light in their eyes, I think they were the same in every other way to humans.


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## daisy (Mar 23, 2002)

Also - who knows about Bombadil? Probably not a 'normal'creation there either.
And I guess the ents rely on angiosperm pollination like other trees - or gymno, I can't remember which.
Depends on if they have pinecones or are flowering plants.


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## aragil (Mar 24, 2002)

Just curious, but I don't remember any pointy-ear descriptions in any of the books. I think pointy-eared is a common conception of elves, but I'm not sure that Tolkien ever described them that way.


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## Legolam (Mar 24, 2002)

Hmmm, this got me thinking. First of all I though - elf anatomy MUST be the same as human anatomy just, well, just because. But then, being a Med student and having a lot of time to contemplate these sorts of things, I realised that elves are immortal. So they don't succumb to cancer, furring up of the arteries to cause heart attacks, arthritis etc etc etc. They don't suffer all the degenerative illnesses that we as humans suffer.

So does this mean they have different anatomy. Probably not. They almost certainly have a different biological make-up ie they lacked the ageing genes, and had some super way of getting rid of cholesterol.

[small aside - why were there no fat elves. There were fat dwarves and hobbits and men ...]

And how did the starlight get into their eyes, like a permanent reflection or what??? Come on science peeps, we need answers!!!


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## Wood Elf (Mar 24, 2002)

Didn't Tolkien say, in one of his letters or something, that he gave the elves ears in the shape of leaves? I remember reading that somewhere, that their ears are likened to that of leaves, hence the pointed tips. 

Yeah, elves must have great genes. Lucky. Yeah, why weren't there any fat elves? Say, whats the deal? Maybe because overweightness leads to tuns of health problems, and elves can't have that. Hmm...


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## pippin le qer (Mar 24, 2002)

Ents relying on angiosperm pollination?
Dear Daisy, read your classics 
Ents were not walking plants, like Triffids. They reproduced just like Dwarves ( not a lot) when there were still Entwomen in the neighbourhood, created by Yavanna as a respons to Aulë's dwarves.
Its strange to notice that both the races not created by Eru do have a low sexdrive.


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## Úlairi (Mar 25, 2002)

Interesting concept Legolam, oh and by the way, I also aspire to be a Med student, but I'll have to work a little harder than I am now! The DNA construct of Elves obviously did not make them susceptible to cancer or other diseases and also obeisity. Obviously the anatomy was different in some areas but similar in others.


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## Úlairi (Mar 25, 2002)

Ummm, the thread is on Elf anatomy and not the anatomy of Ents, post another thread on Ents but keep to the thread in here!!!


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## ReadWryt (Mar 25, 2002)

> Elves and Men are evidently in Biological terms one race, or they could not breed and produce fertile offspring - even as a rare event:there are 2 cases only in my legends of such unions, and they are merged in the decendents of _Eärendil_. But since some have held that the rate of longevity is a biological characteristic, within limits of variation, you could not have Elves in a sense "immortal" - not eternal, but dying by "old age" - and Men mortal, more or less as they seem to die in the Primary World - and yet sufficiently akin. I might answer that this `biology' is only a theory, that modern `gerontology', or whatever they call it, finds `aging' rather more mysterious, and less clearly inevitable in bodies of human structure. But I should actually answer: I do not care. This is a biological dictum in my imaginary world, a rudimentary `secondary'; but if it pleased a Creator to give it (in correct form) Reality on any plane, then you would just have to enter it and begin studying its different biology, that is all.


 The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien - #153 September 1954


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## Anarchist (Mar 25, 2002)

Elves were most probably the same as the men but their faces were more beautiful (well that's the picture I have in my mind).


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## menchu (Mar 25, 2002)

I have 'always' considered Elves and Men have a similar anatomy. It is probably the microscopical techniques that would have something to say about it. Proteins which are related to certain processes in metabolism. But I don't dare to talk such things yet, when I'm still in my first year at Biology.

However, I would like to state a fact studied in Ethology about times in which different species reach their development: the more evoluted the longest it takes to reach it. It is based on the learning, which somehow is accumulated, gathered as the species evolute. [Say, we have 'inside' the learning of fish, amphibia, reptiles... and it takes longer to reach a full growth which includes those and our own learning, plus maybe new knowledge that increases in time] What I mean with this is that Elves, having appeared before Men upon Middle Earth (it's not that Men have an Elvish origin, just for those who can be confused by what I said above) they had more time to develop a further learning and so that would make them, in a way, have longer lives to reach it. 

I hope I explained myself properly... I'll be checking my books.


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## Nocturno (Mar 25, 2002)

Elves must have had a way to handle the free radicals that are said to be the cause of old age. 
Their perfect bodies would prevent them to develope wild cells that are the cause of cancer.
Their perfect defenses would eliminate any form of disesase or infection.
But that's the biology behind it, the fact that they are beings who would also exist in the unseen world is the gravest difference.
The general idea of Tolkien, as I think, is that they were tied spiritually to the earth, where human soul would not. Tbe idea, would mean that they would cease to exist if the earth came to an end. Human soul would have a way to trascend that, being that the "gift" of Ilúvatar which would even put them in a different position related to he powers of the world, the Valar.
I think that is why an elf would have to "choose" if he wanted to be a man or woman. It's much more a matter of spirituality than biology.


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## Lantarion (Mar 26, 2002)

I don't think the Elves of Tolkien's world are anatomically that dissimilar from humans (ok, ok: 'Men'). Their ears are the first thing that springs to mind, and perhap their slender bodies and nimble features; as well as great skin.  Have you ever seen a fat Elf? 
I think that the difference between Elves and Men lies inside them. Their understanding of the world around them is obviously wider, which is eminent in their respect for nature, and their military tactics are quite sophisticated. 
The theory of humans using under half of their cerebral capacity might come into play here as well. Perhaps Elves' brains are more evolved (they were the first of the Children of Ilúvatar), and they use a larger part of their cerebrums: hence the 'dreamwalking', great vision, Seen/Unseen vortex, and small degree of 'magic'.
Hmm..


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## menchu (Mar 27, 2002)

Your last comments are really good!
That makes me realize that their adaptation (Elves) to the environment and the biological theory that deals with it could give some meaning to their spiritual 'putting down roots' with the world: the more evoluted so as to adapt oneself the harder the surviving of a catastrophy for that species is. I mean, Elves would suffer much more the changes occured due to Morgoth & Sauron's deeds. It's a little contradictory though, that being more evolved they would die 'easier'. This could be solved by the fact that the adaptation they have developed is precisely aimed to 'survive': the super-vision, their own way to rest, and all those ones Pontifex has mentioned. Therefore the results of their adaptation would 'defeat' that point of the theory.

By the way, my last post refered to what's called "Prolonged Immaturity Syndrome".


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## Taran (Apr 1, 2002)

Um...hello, but Tolkien intended his books to be works of fiction, mythologies, not _The Origin of Species_! Besides, he was a Roman Catholic, so he would never believe anything so preposterous as hobbits actually being our ancestors! When he said that thing about him being a hobbit, he meant character: a homebody, who enjoyed reading a good book, sitting by the fire, smoking a pipe...


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## menchu (Apr 2, 2002)

Hello Taran!
I do know indeed, thanks.  We were just discussing how it could be (See ReadWryt's quote). We are not experts, but there's nothing wrong with trying to apply some things we learn to Middle Earth. Tolkien did so with the fields that were close to him, as it should be (talking about what you know); and you never know what would have happened if he had decided to include other points of view to his work.
Again, we are just commenting, not changing his words.


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## Taran (Apr 2, 2002)

Yeah well...sorry. I know, its sorta fun to think about that, but some of the comments sounded kinda weird. Oh well - oh yeah! And about the Ents (sorry) but the females were called Entwives, but were made extincet in the Second Age, i think. Anyway, there are no new Ents, just a lot of ones that were already there.


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## Tarien (Apr 3, 2002)

I think that Elves had no flaws phisically. They couldn't, and survive for, well, ever. 
It may have something to do with their metabolism. It seems very slow to me. After all, how could they _carry_ enough food to cross the Helcaraxe if they needed to eat like humans do? They couldn't. They didn't have any way of replenishing their supplies, hunting, or having anything else bear supplies. They had to carry it themselves. Plus furs. 
Just my random thoughts.


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