# Spirit of Fire



## Confusticated (Sep 24, 2003)

Feanor, the ultimate rebel against the Valar... he was after Morgoth with a burning hate... why did he follow the summons to Mandos? Did he go back and demand a body, saying the Valar had no right to deny them their natural state which was the union of body and spirit?

And also, what do you think came of Feanor in Mandos through the ages? Did he ever repent but remain in holding due the the greatness of the evil he did, or did he grow bitter against the Valar? Or just continue to burn with hate for Morgoth?

For those unaware, here's some stuff from the Glorfindel essay in HoME XII:
"Their death--and the disembodiment of their spirits was an 'unnatural' and grievous matter. It was therefore the duty of the Valar, by command of the One, to restore them to incarnate life, if they desired it. But this 'restoration' could be delayed (8) by Manwe, if the fea while alive had done evil deeds and refused to repent of them, or still harboured any malice against any other person among the living."

Note 8 is: Or in the gravest *c*ases (such as that of Feanor) withheld and referred to the One.


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## Celebthôl (Sep 24, 2003)

I'd guess that the Filthy swine would never repent, I remember the first time I read the book, always when he had the chance to be the bigger man and repent, he never did, he always did the stupid thing, that only earnt him more hate. So it wouldnt surprise me if he was in there right now stewing in hatred over Morgoth and the reast of the living etc. . .


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## Gil-Galad (Sep 24, 2003)

I don't think Feanor would be sorry for anything he had done.Though I consider him the greatest elf ever I know that he would never step back form something he had stated or done.In my opinion he would just stay a spirit of fire desiring so much to destroy Morgoth that his hate towards Melkor would not give him a rest for even one single moment.


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## Confusticated (Sep 24, 2003)

Cool answers, guys! But Thol, its interesting you say he would stew in hate for not only Morgoth, but 'the rest of the living'! Do you mean he would pretty much hate all the elves too? And if so, anything specific cause you to think so?

I'd like to hear what you guys think about his attitude towards the Valar. Did he grow to hate them too? 

Maybe that is why he followed the summons to Mandos... to whip Mandos into shape, or break out of there (Hey, if Feanor can't find a way, no one can!) and give the good little Vanyar something to talk about.


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## Turgon (Sep 24, 2003)

To be honest I cannot really see why Fëanor would wish to leave Mandos. How the hell could he ever face Fingolfin and his followers after the treachery at Losgar? Or listen to Finarfin as he uttered the words 'Told you so!' 

In my mind Fëanor's stay in Mandos was a self-imposed exile. It was his pride that kept him in there - how could it be otherwise being what he was?


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## Confusticated (Sep 24, 2003)

Great insight, Turgon. If Feanor did repent at all, I can very much see his pride keeping him from wanting to face up to it. Not that the excellent Finarfin would throw it in his face or show that attitude at all, but from Feanor's view I can see how he would think it. Do you have any idea for why Feanor went to Mandos in the first place?


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## YayGollum (Sep 24, 2003)

Hm. I like the Turgon person's idea the best. Yay Feanor! Pride is good! Doobedoobedoo... what else? Why would he feel like going in the first place? It looks like the Turgon person already answered that, didn't he? oh well. What was it that The Sil. said about Feanor after he died? That he was waiting somewhere to open the silmarils at the end of time? Or something like that. How's about I just say that he found out that he had some really great task to do in the end and he knew that he'd rather not hang around Middle Earth as some little spirit that could be used by Mel? Yes, that sounds good to me.


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## Confusticated (Sep 24, 2003)

One of my favorite passages in all of the Tolkien texts I have read. It doesn't necessarily say Feanor was waiting to open the jewels, but it does say:


> As three great jewels they were in form. But not until the End, when Feanor shall return who perished ere the Sun was made, and sits now in the Halls of Awaiting and comes no more among his kin; not until the Sun passes and the Moon falls, shall it be known of what substance they were made.


From The Silmarillion, Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor.

I think Feanor must have repented, and I guess he went to Mandos to get a body.

The way I see it, Feanor had to have either saw the error in his ways or have continued to blame the Valar which would untimately result in him hating them. I do not think he came to hate the Valar, so to me this means he saw his own faults and through the deception caused my Melkor going among the Noldor.

I guess he showed up in Mandos and probably demanded a body from the Valar, and when they refused it he was angry but given a lot of time to think things through he came to understand just how Melkor played him. Feanor did not trust Melkor, but he was not aware of the depth of the effects Melkor's whisperings had on even himself.


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## Gil-Galad (Sep 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Nóm _
> *
> The way I see it, Feanor had to have either saw the error in his ways or have continued to blame the Valar which would untimately result in him hating them. I do not think he came to hate the Valar, so to me this means he saw his own faults and through the deception caused my Melkor going among the Noldor.
> 
> *


Yeah,he probably saw his faults,but do you think his pride allowed him to confess them?I dunno.It seems to me that Feanor's pride was too big.


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## Eledhwen (Sep 25, 2003)

It is possible that, once divested of his body, Feanor could see and understand more clearly how much of what drove him to his fell deeds came from Morgoth. Once he knew the whole truth, he would have to either humble himself or harden his heart. If his humility was genuine, he would then wish to kneel before the Valar and his own kin to seek their forgiveness, and Mandos would permit this.

Could he humble himself? He was a fiery character from the womb, and he put everything - all his might and strength - into everything he undertook. This fierce singleminded genius wrought the Silmarils and the destruction of his whole family. If he _could_ bring himself to humility, then he would do it as wholeheartedly as he did everything else, it would be a complete turnaround - an absolute - but as he had the strength to wreak such havoc, he might also have the strength to change.


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## YayGollum (Sep 25, 2003)

Oo! Yay Feanor! Anyways, why would you people think that he'd have to end up either becoming especially and scarily and uncharacteristically humble or just becoming evil and stubborn and hard-headed even when he's dead and has plenty of time to figure things out better? I would think that when he figured things out, he'd just get madder at Mel. No humbling. No being evil and stubborn. Just a bunch of ---> "Argh! I will have my revenge!"


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## Gil-Galad (Sep 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by YayGollum _
> * Just a bunch of ---> "Argh! I will have my revenge!" *


That was what I meant first!!!!You scored the 100 points YaY!!!!


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## Eledhwen (Sep 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by YayGollum _
> *Oo! Yay Feanor! Anyways, why would you people think that he'd have to end up either becoming especially and scarily and uncharacteristically humble or just becoming evil and stubborn and hard-headed even when he's dead and has plenty of time to figure things out better? I would think that when he figured things out, he'd just get madder at Mel. No humbling. No being evil and stubborn. Just a bunch of ---> "Argh! I will have my revenge!" *


I love YayGollum's posts! So pictorial, so passssionate.


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## Elfarmari (Sep 28, 2003)

I think I agree with Turgon, that Feanor's pride would keep him in Mandos. However, I also agree with Yay that his desire for revenge against Melkor would only grow with the passing ages. If the Valar told Feanor he would not be given a body until the End, then Feanor would really have no reason to overcome his pride and repent. If they simply said something meaning, 'not yet', then perhaps his desire for revenge could overcome his pride and lead to repentance for the purpose of regaining his body so he could once again wield a sword against Melkor.


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## YayGollum (Sep 28, 2003)

*collapses* Yes, sure, thank you, but also ---> Hm. After reading the Elfarmari person's post I decided that the superly cool Feanor would most likely be ignoring anything that people might not like him for and he'd just be focused on planning his revenge and things. When people ignore him or get mad at him, he'd throw his hands in the air with all kinds of disgust and start ranting about people not paying attention to what really matters. He'd be making the biggest and scariest weapons. An armoury bigger than anything else would most likely show up. Little things like that, maybe? I don't know.


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## Eledhwen (Sep 28, 2003)

Possibly. He could end up being an Elf version of Sauron (who was a Maia under Aule) fallen and evil.


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## YayGollum (Sep 29, 2003)

Ack! Where'd that come from? Sauron was messed with by Mel. Sure, Feanor was messed with by Mel, too, but in nowhere near the same way or with the same intent. Craziness. Why think that he would suddenly become evil when he's hanging out in that boring Mandos place with all kinds of time to brood?


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## Gil-Galad (Sep 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Eledhwen _
> *Possibly. He could end up being an Elf version of Sauron (who was a Maia under Aule) fallen and evil. *


Are you serious?I would accept claiming Feanor to be mad,crazy,and responsible for so many tragedies,but that I cannot accept.He was not evil.Feanor didn't want to rule over ME,to destroy,to corrupt and to despair.All he wanted was his Silmarils and to revenge for his father.


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## Eledhwen (Oct 1, 2003)

Sauron was not evil at first. What I am suggesting is what may have happened to Feanor over time if he had survived or been allowed back when his heart was still full of hate and thoughts of revenge. His desire for the Silmarils would just be the path by which his ultimate corruption could occur. Do you think that if he had acquired all three back into his possession that he would have become Mr nice guy?


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## YayGollum (Oct 1, 2003)

Was he Mr. Evil Guy when he had them in the first place? No. Anyways, I would say that he was more into getting revenge than getting the silmaril thingys back. Sure, he definitely wanted the things back, but he wasn't thinking ---> "Oh, no! Anyone at all has taken my little creations! They are just so cool that I can't let anyone else have them!" No, I'd say that he was thinking more along the lines of ---> "Argh! Evil Mel! I'll call him Morgoth from now on! He killed my dad! He was cool! Do what? He took my silmaril thingys, too? What's next? Time to kill the guy!" I don't see why that type of personality would make you think that he'd brood in the afterlife and become evil. He'd brood in the afterlife and become more and more angry. Was the fact that he was angry an evil thing?


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 3, 2003)

Once again brilliant thoughts YaY,and more brilliant way of explaining them!!!!
Cool!


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## Confusticated (Apr 17, 2005)

Since Feanor will willingly give up his silmarils in the end, I can't imagine he spends eternity being devoured by hatred in Mandos.

Yet it remains strange to me that so determined againt the Valar would have went to Mandos.

I almost wonder if there wasn't some special permission to bring him there against his will.

I guess his loose spirit might have taken a new view of the Valar after realising the Noldor could not defeat Morgoth, among other things...

Newer members have views?


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## Elfarmari (Apr 17, 2005)

Do we know if an Elf could refuse the summons initially, but then realize what they've done and reconsider later? If so, perhaps Feanor did not accept the summons and arrive in Mandos until after he saw all the evil that his oath and his sons had wrought, and saw how futile it had been to go after Melkor in the first place. 

Or, maybe . . . I'll have to look this up, but doesn't the Silmarillion say that Feanor saw with the eyes of death that the war against Melkor was ultimately without hope, and reminded his sons of their oath regardless? Maybe his spirit saw the folly of this after his death?


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## YayGollum (Apr 17, 2005)

Hm. I don't remember that bit specifically. It would be cool, though. Report back, Elfarmari person? 

Anyways, yes, I wish for newer members to toss opinions! 

Also, perhaps I was a bit too crazy in the past? I do not picture Feanor sitting as well as brooding in a windowless room of Mandos, curled up in a ball, and constantly thinking mind-numbingly fruitless as well as hate-filled Mel thoughts. I picture the dude sitting on a bench in his finest armour, doodling on the ground with one of the coolest looking swords of all time, ignoring the praises of the elves outside for Ecthelion, wishing that he had known about balrogs or had at least rushed after Mel with a bit more foresight to go along with his righteous fury of the moment of his death. Yes, still much thoughts towards hatred of Mel, but he's heard what happened to Mel and his silmarils. 

Now he thinks of gathering his silmarils together to gloat at Mel next to that entrance to the Void. Would the guy even know some of the things that I know about the end of time? Were there crazy predictions made by Mandos that said that he would open the silmarils and Mel would show up and Turin elfbane would show up and save the day with Eol's sword and Arda and all elves will die? I'm not sure. 

Anyways, about Feanor's spirit deciding or being forced someplace, I would think that Feanor would know that he only had two choices as a spirit. Wander around aimlessly and fruitlessly or hang out in Mandos. I would think that Feanor's first idea would be to wander. Why would he want to head for Mandos in defeat where the guy could say that he told him so? He'd probably wander for a while, but Mel, who liked to mess with elf spirits, would spot the guy, which would easily make Feanor say ---> "Uh, Mandos, hi! I was coming! Give me two seconds! No, he who I named Morgoth! I shall not be used by you!" Also, he might think that checking up on his dad would be fun.


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## Elfarmari (Apr 17, 2005)

Here's what the Silmarillion says of Feanor's death:



> "And looking out from the slopes of Ered Wethrin with his last sigth he beheld far off the peaks of Thangorodrim, mightiest of the towers of Middle-earth, and knew with the foreknowledge of death that no power of the Noldor would ever overthrow them; but he cursed the name of Morgoth thrice, and laid it upon his sons to hold to their oath, and to avenge their father. Then he died; but he had neither burial nor tomb, for so fiery was his spirit that as it sped his body fell to ash, and was borne away like smoke; and his likeness has never again appeared in Arda, neither has his spirit left the halls of Mandos."


 
So, realizing that the fight was hopeless, he demanded that his sons followed through with their oath and avenge their father. Why?? I see two options: Pride, in which case this would make it hard to believe that he accepted Mandos' summons immediately; or that he knew, also perhaps with the foreknowledge of death, that fighting Melkor was simply right, and he was willing to see it done by whatever means until the Valar joined the fight.


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## YayGollum (Apr 17, 2005)

Why follow through with an oath and avenge their father? Because following through with an oath is the honorable thing to do? Because he believed that he deserves avenging? I see nothing confusing about those things. Sure, he could tell that the Noldor won't be able to stop Mel. That doesn't mean that something else can't and that they'll still have to take the silmarils from someone else. Also, why include the thing about avenging him at all? Was that not something for them to expect anyway? "Don't be evil people who will be remembered as the type that go back on a promise. Oh, and kill that fiery demon who killed me, sons. I did not know that he who I named Morgoth had minions like that! Whoops."


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## Elfarmari (Apr 17, 2005)

Good points, YayGollum. I admit I wasn't really thinking about that, it does make sense that Feanor's sons would be expected to revenge their father and hold to their oath. Also, I guess it really wouldn't matter what Feanor told his sons, since they had sworn by Illuvatar and so could not have gone back on their oath.


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## Alcuin (Apr 17, 2005)

Fëanor was apparently a captive of Mandos until the very end, it would appear, when he would come forth at last from Mandos and break the Silmarils to release the light to rekindle the Two Trees. In _The Lost Road_, “The Conclusion of the Quenta Silmarillion”, §32,


> Thereafter shall Earth be broken and re-made, and the Silmarils shall be recovered out of Air and Earth and Sea; for Eärendel shall descend and surrender that flame which he hath had in keeping. Then Fëanor shall take the Three Jewels and bear them to Yavanna Palúrien; and she will break them and with their fire rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth. …


In _The Peoples of Middle-Earth_, Chapter XIII “Last Writings”, “Glorfindel”,


> … It was therefore the duty of the Valar, by command of the One, to restore them [the Elves] to incarnate life, if they desired it. But this ‘restoration’ could de delayed [here is a reference to footnote 8] by Manwë, if the _fëa_ while alive had done evil deeds and refused to repent of them, or still harboured any malice against any other person among the living.


Footnote 8 reads: “Or in gravest cases (such as that of Fëanor) withheld and referred to the One.”

Fëanor was quite stubborn, and perhaps he harbored malice against others of the Eldar for long. Even had he not, his deeds after his marring by Morgoth were so severe, he might well have been kept long in Mandos as punishment for his iniquities, especially the Kinslaying at Alqualondë.


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## Arvedui (Apr 18, 2005)

Well, Fëanor was one of the brightest guys on the block, so my guess is that he understood that his only chance at undoing some of the wrong that he did, was to accept the summons. The alternative wasn't too pleasing I guess.


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## Thorondor_ (May 12, 2005)

From the Ainulindale thread:


> In mythologies I know, there is the rupture of the initial harmony, which is necessary for the creation to continue:
> - in greek mythology, Cronos (time) cuts away from his father his creative power;
> - in orient, maya brings limitation, illusion and suffering, after the first five, pure, stages of the creation occured;
> - chinese say :"when all subcelestial beings know what good is, evil appear; when all subcelestial beings know what beauty is, uglyness appears";
> My conclusion would be that the "Melkor discord" moment was a necessary and planned for step, nothing more, the ultimate purpose of the creation being the return of the Children of Eru to their Maker, which, of course, would require the creation to go through several steps, including those of corruption.


Related to this thread, I would assume that Feanor would play an archetypal role, meaning that he doesnt really have "free will". I think he is very close to being a "pure" thought of Eru, and, therefore, actually bringing to life His will, even while being a "rebel".
"Happy" for us, we have free will


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## Ingwë (May 13, 2005)

I don't think Fëanor would be sorry for his deeds. He was the greatest enemy of Melkor because the Dark lord has killed his father and has stolen the Jewels. I think Fëanor would be sorry because he himself didn't killed his great Enemy. 
Through the Ages Fëanor remained in Mandos waiting for the end of the days but he didn't do anything special. I suppose he wasn't happy because the Valar destroyed Morgoth - he wasn't destroyed by Fëanor's sons. They have sworn with him in Valinor and they had to follow their father's desire but they hadn't. His sons were killed; maybe he talk with them in Mandos?  

And I also agree with Turgon, that Fëanor's pride would keep him in Mandos. Let me see... Fëanor himself wanted to kill Melkor, he in the front lines of the army that attacked Angband and thus he has been killed by a Balrog. He wanted to take back the Silmarils but he couldn't. Maybe there was delusiuon in his heart and he refused the advise of the Valar. We was a bit maniac...


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## Thorondor_ (May 15, 2005)

There is this interesting comment Tolkien had about "_ofermod"_, representing the heroic trait in the Middle-ages. Tolkien saw this as a negative trait - excessive mood, which brings harm. The best examples of the kind are Feanor and Turin. Too bad, Feanor had soo much promise. I bet if he was face to face with Morgoth, he would have showed him some moves hehe


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