# Elrond's memory.



## Arvedui (Jun 27, 2003)

I was reading some older threads (highly recommended, BTW), when an inconsistency dawned on me, concerning something Elrond said:


> Thereupon Elrond paused a while and sighed. 'I remember well the splendour of their banners,' he said. *'It recalled to me the glory of the Elder Days* and the hosts of Beleriand, so many great princes and captains were assembled. And yet not so many, nor so fair, as when Thangorodrim was broken, and the Elves deemed that evil was ended for ever, and it was not so.'


From the Council of Elrond, I believe.

What puzzled me was:
How could Elrond remember something of the glory of the Elder days? 
He was born after the Fall of Gondolin, right?
What hosts of Beleriand with many great princes and captains could there have been in his lifetime?


----------



## Ithrynluin (Jun 27, 2003)

Well yes it is pretty obvious he is speaking of the host of the Valar and the War of Wrath in the *second* part of that quote. But Elrond wasn't around to see any great battles other than that, so I'm assuming he was told about all the wars and great hosts from some Elf who had been present himself.


----------



## Arvedui (Jun 27, 2003)

So basically he is just bragging, then?
But why would he feel the need to do that? Trying to look important?


----------



## BlackCaptain (Jun 27, 2003)

Psh... If I was a super-wise Elf not even Sauron could stop me from bragging!

I don't really think he was bragging though... He was alive sometime when Beleriand was still there... and Beleriand stopped being there after the Wars of Wrath, where alot of these noble princes and such were.


----------



## Eriol (Jun 27, 2003)

'It recalled to me the glory of the Elder Days and the hosts of Beleriand, so many great princes and captains were assembled. And yet not so many, nor so fair, as when Thangorodrim was broken, and the Elves deemed that evil was ended for ever, and it was not so.'

Breaking it up:

1) It recalled to me the glory of the Elder Days and the hosts of Beleriand

In this sentence "it" refers to the banners of Gil-Galad's and Elendil's armies, and comparing them to the armies he had seen in the War of Wrath;

2) So many great princes and captains were assembled

Still talking about the Last Alliance;

3) And yet not so many, not so fair, as when Thangorodrim was broken...

i.e., The Last Alliance was smaller than the War of Wrath -- which he HAD witnessed. 

Elrond could have used a clearer way to say the same thing:

"So many great princes and captains were assembled, it recalled to me the glory of the Elder Days and the hosts of Beleriand. And yet not so many, nor so fair, as when Thangorodrim was broken, and the Elves deemed that evil was ended for ever, and it was not so."

So no, he was not bragging -- he was just being oblique, as a good Loremaster ought to be .

As an aside: I would have thought that the Last Alliance was certainly larger than the remnants of the Noldor and Sindar and Men in Sirion, just before the War of Wrath. Certainly "the glory of the Elder Days and the hosts of Beleriand" refers to Valinor's armies marching against Mordor, and to no other battle.


----------



## Beleg (Jun 28, 2003)

> "the glory of the Elder Days and the hosts of Beleriand" refers to Valinor's armies marching against Mordor, and to no other battle.



Then why say _The host of Beleriand_? 
Why not the host of Valinor/Aman?


----------



## Eriol (Jun 28, 2003)

Because (1)it was a host, and (2)it was in Beleriand, (3)fighting on "Beleriand's side", (4)with natives on their side . Just as an observer could call the American army in Europe at late 1944 "the hosts of Western Europe". It could refer to geographical location and political affiliation both. Remember, the War of Wrath lasted several years, and the host of Valinor would be considered "the home team" -- the hosts of Beleriand. I can easily picture people referring to the army in that way.

That's how I see it... he was just being oblique.


----------



## Arvedui (Jun 28, 2003)

Excuse me if I appear stupid, but how old could Elrond have been at the time of the War of Wrath?

(I don't have the books here at the moment....)


----------



## Beleg (Jun 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Eriol_
> It could refer to geographical location and political affiliation both. Remember, the War of Wrath lasted several years, and the host of Valinor would be considered "the home team" -- the hosts of Beleriand. I can easily picture people referring to the army in that way.



I still don't buy it. The war wasn't about Beleriand was it? 
Why would the host of Valinor be called Host of Beleriand? 
They belonged to Valinor, didn't they? We can call the Host of Valinor host of Beleriand If a substantial number of locals participate in the war; yet It wasnt the case and the war was mostly a Valinor/Angband affair. (Except for Earendil, who was a Beleriander in origin)


> _Posted by Arvedui_
> Excuse me if I appear stupid, but how old could Elrond have been at the time of the War of Wrath?



Elrond and Elros were born circa 530 F.A, so they would have known about the War of the Wrath.


----------



## Eriol (Jun 29, 2003)

Well, the "theater of operations" was Beleriand (else why was it so utterly destroyed?); and the remnants of Elves and Men fought on the side of the Valar, not only Eärendil (I remember distinctly a quote saying that the Edain fought with the Valar while the other men did not, and "the Elves never forgot it", or something like that).

It is a quoteless theory . Just a way to interpret Elrond's words without ascribing "bragging" or "hallucination". I have no idea whether it is correct or not.


----------



## Beleg (Jun 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Eriol _
> *Well, the "theater of operations" was Beleriand (else why was it so utterly destroyed?); and the remnants of Elves and Men fought on the side of the Valar, not only Eärendil (I remember distinctly a quote saying that the Edain fought with the Valar while the other men did not, and "the Elves never forgot it", or something like that).
> 
> It is a quoteless theory . Just a way to interpret Elrond's words without ascribing "bragging" or "hallucination". I have no idea whether it is correct or not. *



I know that Edain fought on the side of Host of Valar, but the chief element in the war were the Valinorian armies, not the Edain.
I mentioned Earendil because his was the greatest feat a Beleriander achieved during the War of Wrath.


----------



## Ithrynluin (Jun 29, 2003)

> _Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath_
> Of the march of the host of the Valar to the north of Middle-earth little is said in any tale; for among them went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they only learned long afterwards from their kinsfolk in Aman.





> And such few as were left of the three houses of the Elf-friends, Fathers of Men, fought upon the part of the Valar; and they were avenged in those days for Baragund and Barahir, Galdor and Gundor, Huor and Húrin, and many others of their lords. But a great part of the sons of Men, whether of the people of Uldor or others new-come out of the east, marched with the Enemy; and the Elves do not forget it.



Only Men fought in the War of Wrath - so Eärendil was an exception as no Elves participated in that war.


----------



## Eriol (Jun 29, 2003)

I think your first quote refers to _the march of the host_, ithrynluin, not to the war proper... I can't imagine the remnants of the Noldor (Maedhros & Co.) staying on the sidelines -- and neither can I imagine the remnants of the Sindar (Círdan & Co.) doing the same. _Especially_ if the remnants of the Edain (much weaker and in smaller numbers than the Beleriand Elves, presumably) were fighting.

Sure the main element was the army from Valinor, even if enlarged by the remaining men and elves of Beleriand. But the question is -- could this army be named "the host of Beleriand" at some moment in the long war?

I think it could. But I can be wrong. I don't have any quotes to further it.


----------



## Ithrynluin (Jun 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Eriol _
> *I think your first quote refers to the march of the host, ithrynluin, not to the war proper... *



Yes but that hints at something. If it referred to the March of the Host of Valinor _from Valinor_, excluding the peoples of ME, there would be no need to say '_for among them went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; _'. I am certain that '_the march of the host of the Valar to the north of Middle-earth _ refers to their marching from wherever they landed in Middle Earth to Angband, not from Valinor to Angband. So there were no 'Middle-Earth Elves' in the WoW.


----------



## Eriol (Jun 29, 2003)

Why, you just have to keep on reading immediately after that quote to see that it is not so:



> But at the last the might of Valinor came up out of the West, and the challenge of the trumpets of Eönwë filled the sky; and Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of their arms, for the host of the Valar were arrayed in forms young and fair and terrible, and the mountains rang beneath their feet.



So the march ended "when the might of Valinor came up out of the West"; and at that moment "Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of their arms".

I simply can't see how this is interpreted to mean that the Elves did not take part. 

The march from the West to Beleriand was unwitnessed by any Beleriand Elves, that is the meaning of the quote; but "at last" the host "came up out of the West", and "Beleriand was ablaze". It is clear enough to me that the March began at Valinor and ended at Beleriand.

What were Círdan and Maedhros doing then?

Also, why would the Elves "not forget" about the men who fought on the other side if they themselves were cravenly hiding in the background while the war was being fought? I don't think that the Elves who "did not forget" were the Vanyar. It is, clearly, an allusion to the estrangement between Men and Elves _ in Middle-Earth_. So how could the Elves be so angry if they themselves did not fight?


----------



## Arvedui (Jun 29, 2003)

Just to conclude on the original topic, then:
Eärendil participated in the War of Wrath, and both his sons were old enough to participate, so therefore, Elrond could very well have been speaking the truth as I first quoted?

Concerning the participation of the Elves of Middle-earth, it is of course open to speculation, but the way I read it, I have to agree with ithrynluin. They didn't participate.


> and tidings of these things they only learned long afterwards from their kinsfolk in Aman.


Sounds fairly settled to me.
And one more thing:


> The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, and the War of Wrath


It is always either the Host of the West, or the Host of the Valar. 
And after the battle, there is this:


> Thus an end was made of the power of Angband in the North, and' the evil realm was brought to naught; and out of the deep prisons a multitude of slaves came forth beyond all hope into the light of day, and they looked upon a world that was changed. For so great was the fury of those adversaries that the northern regions of the western world were rent asunder, and the sea roared in through many chasms, and there was confusion and great noise; and rivers perished or found new paths, and the valleys were upheaved and the hills trod down; and Sirion was no more.
> Then Eönwë as herald of the Elder King summoned the Elves of Beleriand to depart from Middle-earth.


_Then _ Eönwë summoned the Elves of Beleriand.


----------



## Eriol (Jun 29, 2003)

hmm... I really can't see it. "These things" in your quote is related to the March, Arvedui, not to the war. And Eönwë summoned the Elves of Beleriand _to Valinor_ after the War was over -- he could not very well summon them _before_ it.

Sorry guys, but the participation of the Elves of Beleriand in the war is still obvious to me, for the reasons explained in my last post.

What is doubtful is whether the hosts coud be called "the Host of Beleriand".


----------



## Ithrynluin (Jun 29, 2003)

> *by Arvedui*
> Just to conclude on the original topic, then:
> Eärendil participated in the War of Wrath, and both his sons were old enough to participate, so therefore, Elrond could very well have been speaking the truth as I first quoted?



Elrond and Elros were born around FA 530. According to HoME XI, the War of Wrath lasted 545-587, with the First Age ending in 590. Given that Elves reach adulthood at the age of 50, the chances that Elrond was present at the War are slim at best. But it's not impossible.



> *by Eriol*
> I simply can't see how this is interpreted to mean that the Elves did not take part.



The quote *you* provided doesn't prove anything either way. The quote *I* provided makes an explicit mention of Men participating, but there is not even a single word on the Elves of Beleriand. The quote therefore speaks in favour of the premise that the Elves of Middle Earth did not participate. Now this is not necessarily my own view, I would think it more logical that the Elves of ME DID fight this last battle, to oust the foe that has dealt them so much damage and sorrow. 



> _The History of Middle Earth V: The Lost Road_
> Great war came now into Beleriand, and Fionwe drove the Orcs and Balrogs before him; and he camped beside Sirion, and his tents were as snow upon the field. He summoned now all Elves, Men, Dwarves, beasts and birds unto his standard, who did not elect to fight for Morgoth. But the power and dread of Morgoth was very great and many did not obey the summons.



Fionwe (=Eönwë), whilst camping beside Sirion, does summon all the creatures of ME to join him and make a last stand against Morgoth. But many didn't join out of fear of Morgoth. Now did the remnant of the Sindar and the Noldor join? Perhaps, but it is unclear.


----------



## Eriol (Jun 29, 2003)

Well, it is good that you are not adamant in the belief that the Elves of Beleriand did not take part. This makes absolutely no sense in my opinion -- but you are right, I don't think it is _proven_ one way or the other. 

However, the quote I provided showed only that "the March" that was alluded in your quote ended in _the beginning_ of the War, for when this March was over "the trumpets sounded the challenge, and Beleriand was ablaze..." So that the period without Beleriand witnesses to recount the story is over at this moment, leaving more than 40 years for the Elves of Beleriand to "get on the stage". That, of course, does not mean that they DID get on the stage by then; but it means that they COULD have. 

Adding the temperament of the Noldor (especially the Feanorians) to this possibility, I think it becomes a certainty, when we take into account that the Edain (who were they, by the way? The house of Beör was wiped out, the house of Hador composed mainly of women and children. The Haladin, only?), tremendously weakened, fought. And I think that the fact that the Elves "did not forget" about the Easterlings says a lot, too. If they were cowards who did not want to fight on the side of the Valar, their hope for so many centuries, I don't think they would be so mad at the men from the east.

I don't think Maedhros and Maglor, who would soon be challenging the Valar themselves for the Silmarils, were afraid to fight against Morgoth. Remember who sired them . Sure, "many" did not answer the summons, but I don't think this can be taken to mean that ALL Elves of Beleriand stood aside for 40 years while the war was raging.

But in any case, it is not proven .


----------



## Arvedui (Jun 30, 2003)

> the chances that Elrond was present at the War are slim at best.


 It dawned on me earlier today that I had written something stupid. What I meant was that Elrond could very well have _seen_ the host of the Valar, going to battle.
So I guess we can agree on _that._ 

No, Eriol, nothing is proven concerning their participation, and I agree with you that it would be strange indeed if none of the Noldor, or at least the remaining Sons of Fëanor participated.


----------



## Beleg (Jul 2, 2003)

The male lines of Hador, Beor weren't _Completely_ wiped out and some of the Haladian including Drudeain obviously remained after the war of the Wrath.


----------



## Grond (Jul 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Eriol _
> *I think your first quote refers to the march of the host, ithrynluin, not to the war proper... I can't imagine the remnants of the Noldor (Maedhros & Co.) staying on the sidelines -- and neither can I imagine the remnants of the Sindar (Círdan & Co.) doing the same. Especially if the remnants of the Edain (much weaker and in smaller numbers than the Beleriand Elves, presumably) were fighting.
> 
> Sure the main element was the army from Valinor, even if enlarged by the remaining men and elves of Beleriand. But the question is -- could this army be named "the host of Beleriand" at some moment in the long war?
> ...





> _from The Silmarillion, Of the Voyage of Earendil and the War of Wrath_
> for among them went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they only learned long afterwards from their kinsfolk in Aman


I have always taken the quote (referring to Eonwe and the host of Valinor) as a reference that the Elves of Middle-earth were specifically excluded from fighting in the War of Wrath. You had the forces of Melkor/Morgoth on one side and the forces of Valinor on the other. The Valinorean force was composed of Maia and Eldar (Vanyar and Noldor loyal to Finarfin). I never thought that the Elves of Beleriand participated. The quote makes specific reference to the fact that no Elves who dwelt in the area oustide of Valinor were aware of what happened during the War of Wrath. 

How could tidings have only been learned afterwards from the Aman kinsman, if Elves of Beleriand participated in the Battles?? That very statement makes it seem a fact to me that no Elves of Middle-earth fought in the battle.


----------



## Annatar Lord Of Gifts (Aug 15, 2022)

The thing is, everyone assumes Elrond didn't take part in the War Of Wrath, but the thing is he might have been there. He's born in 532 of the First Age so even though he would have been a child at the start of the war he would have been in his 50s at the end of it seeing how it ended in 587, so he could easily have taken part in the latter stages.


----------



## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 15, 2022)

Annatar Lord Of Gifts said:


> The thing is, everyone assumes Elrond didn't take part in the War Of Wrath, but the thing is he might have been there. He's born in 532 of the First Age so even though he would have been a child at the start of the war he would have been in his 50s at the end of it seeing how it ended in 587, so he could easily have taken part in the latter stages.


Interesting-- I will have to verify this.


----------



## Tar-Elenion (Aug 15, 2022)

Elrond speaks from memory of the War of Wrath:
"Thereupon Elrond paused a while and sighed. ‘I remember well the splendour of their banners,’ he said. ‘It recalled to me the glory of the Elder Days and the hosts of Beleriand, so many great princes and captains were assembled. And yet not so many, nor so fair, as when Thangorodrim was broken, and the Elves deemed that evil was ended for ever, and it was not so.’"
LotR, Council of Elrond

Tolkien comments on this passage:
"Elrond was present (see LR I 256) at the fall of Thangorodrim."
NoMe, Elvish Ages & Númenórean

Elrond was full grown within 24 löar (sun years) of his birth, so by 556 he was fully adult (assuming the latest birth year given of 532 in the ToY in WotJ).


----------



## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 15, 2022)

Thanks for this-- saved me some work finding a citation.


----------

