# Are you a Feanor or Finrod person?



## Inderjit S (Apr 30, 2003)

Just a question, what kind of character do you prefer? A character with flaws a.l.a Feanor, with some evil tucked inside or a pefect, great *Yawn* Finrod type character? Personally, I love the flawed/evil good guys, like say 'Angel' (From 'Buffy' and 'Angel') and Feanor, rather then the boring predictable good guys, such as Superman or Finrod. What do you think?


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## Confusticated (Apr 30, 2003)

As far as which one I like to read about most, they are even.

As much as I am moved by Feanor rebelling against the Valar and shutting his door in the face of the most mighty being in Arda, Finrod is closer to my heart because I like him as a person. Feanor's selfishness disgusts me.

Ambarto: need I say more?


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## Niniel (Apr 30, 2003)

I like Finrod better as a person, but Fëanor is the cause of more interesting reading matter (although Finrod did some great things too, that are worth reading).


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## Idril (Apr 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Nóm _
> *As much as I am moved by Feanor rebelling against the Valar and shutting his door in the face of the most mighty being in Arda
> *


Argh....Crikey, that sounds a bit like me We tend to like a spot of 'badness' in a person (elf or man), I guess because it's more human like - more like us. But Feanor went too far, and dragged his family and people down with him - I actually think he went mad.
I prefer Finrod, he is the sort of person we aspire to be, honest and loyal to death. It's a shame, in being a good guy, you get labeled 'boring'.


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## Eriol (Apr 30, 2003)

*GO, BORING!*

Yep, I'm all for boring... it's much more fun to be boring .

I think the boring guys have more fun. I'm definitely a Finrod person. I think Finrod was happier when he found Men than Fëanor when making the Silmarils. And that's comparing Finrod with Fëanor's best side... I'm CERTAIN that Finrod was happier at that moment than Fëanor when shutting the door in Morgoth's face.

(It's a great moment, no doubt ).

Didn't Bilbo write that it is very hard to write about good moments? (In Rivendell, The Hobbit). I guess so... it is much better to live in them.


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## Confusticated (Apr 30, 2003)

> Didn't Bilbo write that it is very hard to write about good moments? (In Rivendell, The Hobbit). I guess so... it is much better to live in them.


I was reminded of this too.

I do not think Finrod was a boring person at all, maybe just less dramatic to read about.

Certainly he was an intellectual, and enjoyed his wanderings. He had a good heart, and was kind and wise. That is my kind of guy, rather than some hot-headed, paranoid, kin-slaying, very immature for age, and overly-proud craftsman. Feanor has admirable traits but they are out-weighed in my opinion, by these disasterous faults.


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## Idril (Apr 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Nóm _
> *hot-headed, paranoid, kin-slaying, very immature for age, and overly-proud craftsman *



Sounds like what is referred to as 'artistic temperament' doesn't it.


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## Inderjit S (Apr 30, 2003)

> It's a shame, in being a good guy, you get labeled 'boring'.



I' not saying GOOD guys were boring, just perfect ones. Fingon was good and he wasn't boring. I mean honestly how many people actually excpect/want a flawless partner to spend their rest of their lives with?


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## Confusticated (Apr 30, 2003)

> Sounds like what is referred to as 'artistic temperament' doesn't it.


Yes. I suppose he was quite the artisan with that Sword at Alqualonde too.  


> I mean honestly how many people actually excpect/want a flawless partner to spend their rest of their lives with?


Well, I didn't answer the question in that context. If so, I would want neither, as Feanor is obviously a bad choice, and Finrod is _too_ good, doesn't deserve to be inflicted with me. 


But Inderjit, I wouldn't say Finrod was perfect. I am sure wasn't without mistakes, it is just that any mistakes made by him must have had the result of a better thing not being, rather than a horrid thing happening as a direct result.


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Inderjit S _
> *I' not saying GOOD guys were boring, just perfect ones. Fingon was good and he wasn't boring. I mean honestly how many people actually excpect/want a flawless partner to spend their rest of their lives with? *



You're right, I wouldn't want a flawless partner either. Hey, wasn't disobeying the Valar a flaw of Finrod's and a sign of his imperfection?
And I wouldn't want to have a partner who is TOO flawed either, nor am I too psyched about the idea of marrying or at least condoning a murderer's actions (however "justified" the cause and circumstances may be, and they weren't justified at all IMO).

Sure, I enjoy reading about Fëanor. I should perhaps mention that I also enjoy reading Thomas Harris' novels about Hannibal Lecter.


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## Confusticated (Apr 30, 2003)

Fingolfin and Finarfin went along because they did not want to be sundered from their people or leave them to the rash counsels of Feanor. Finrod spoke against Feanor earlier, so I think it is fair to assume that he went along for the same reason his father and uncle Fingolfin did. The Valar did not command the Noldor to remain in Valinor, only counseled against leaving as Feanor thought they should.

I wouldn't say that doing this was a flaw on Finrod's part.
I think if Finrod made any mistake it was not being active enough in trying to turn back more people when Finarfin did (though we can't be sure he didn't do this) or having gone further out of his way as a diplomat in Beleriand than what we are told he did. He may have had the ability more so than any others to have united the Noldor and even the Sindar beyond a doubt. Then again, maybe not.

Even if those things are true I am not sure it qualifies as a flaw or mistake, and this the worst I can say of Finrod.


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## Zale (Apr 30, 2003)

Even though it is not good to blindly accept authority without questioning it, as Feanor did, I think he went too far in allowing his rage to blind him to sense, and when he refused to give the Silmarils to Yavanna to restore the Two Trees, he committed a terrible crime against all the world.


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## YayGollum (May 1, 2003)

I knew this Inderjit S person would be cool as soon as I saw his first post. Now those are some cool choices on that poll! I had to go with Feanor. Of course! Look at the cool book he started! Look at what this Finrod person wouldn't have gotten famous for if it wasn't for Feanor! Yes, the Finrod types are way too achingly boring for me. Someone name one flaw that the guy had. Maybe I'll find out that he's not so boring. I don't know.


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## Inderjit S (May 1, 2003)

..............


> Ambarto: need I say more?



Feanor's refusal to allow U/Ambarto to stay in Aman was wise. Amras had sworn a oath, which would haunt him unless he succeeded in re-gaining the Silmaril’s. If Amras had stayed in Aman maybe he would've tainted it (As Maglor feared him and Maedhros would) and the 'everlasting darkness' would forever be upon him. he brought it upon himself, Feanor never forced him to swear it, him and his brothers leapt up to their fathers side. 





> I think he went too far in allowing his rage to blind him to sense, and when he refused to give the Silmarils to Yavanna to restore the Two Trees, he committed a terrible crime against all the world.



Aman and the world are not the same thing. How would the 'world' as in Arda itself benefit from the saving of the Trees? In fact it benefited from Feanor's actions, as Myths Transformed points out:




> Myths Transformed; HoME 12
> 
> He (Manwe)must have grasped with great clarity what even we may perceive dimly: that it was the essential mode of the process of 'history' in Arda that evil should constantly arise, and that out of it new good should constantly come. One especial aspect of this is the strange way in which the evils of the Marrer, or his inheritors, are turned into weapons against evil. If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reestablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth, without provoking himto a frenzy of nihilistic destruction. And in the meanwhile, Men, or the best elements in Mankind, shaking off his shadow, came into contact with a people who had actually seen and experienced the Blessed Realm.
> In their association with the warring Eldar Men were raised
> to their fullest achievable stature, and by the two marriages the transference to them, or infusion into Mankind, of the noblest Elf-strain was accomplished, in readiness for the still distant, but inevitably approaching, days when the Elves would 'fade'.



So Feanor's subsequent actions benefited arda and allowed for he 'music' and Arda's ultimate fate under Eru to take place.

Remember Eru's words to the Ainur before they left for Arda:



> and thou, Melkor, wilt discover all the scret thoughts of your mind and wilt pervieve that they are but a part of the whole and a tributary to it's glory


 Ainulindale; Published Silmairillion

So oft from evil good will come, and this was the case of Feanor, as Namo foretold to the Valar when decreeing the marriage of Finwe to Indis in the Statue.



> When he that shall be called Earendil setteth foot upon the shores of Aman, ye shall remember my words . in that hour ye shall not say that the statue of Justice hath born fruit only in death; and the griefs that shall come ye shall wigh in the balance, and they shall not seem too heavy compared with the rising of the light when Valinor groweth dim


 He


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## Confusticated (May 3, 2003)

> Feanor's refusal to allow U/Ambarto to stay in Aman was wise.



I guess I did need to say more. I was refering to the way he reacted to the death. Hiding dismay, playing it off as though he ment to do it, or didn't care at all that his son was dead.



> If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reestablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth, without provoking himto a frenzy of nihilistic destruction. And in the meanwhile, Men, or the best elements in Mankind, shaking off his shadow, came into contact with a people who had actually seen and experienced the Blessed Realm.


Absolutely. I had reached this conclusion before I read it. The Flight of the Noldor was essential to all the Children of Iluvatar, and even to all that was good... to Arda itself. 

But that isn't the only reason this may not have been a crime against the world. The light of the Trees was for everyone, and Feanor had taken some and used as he wished. I think it was moraly rotten of Feanor to deny the light of these when it might have been used to fix the Trees, but as I see it, the jewels were his. I posted this in the previous chapter discussion, but Ill repeat here now: Had the jewels rightfully belonged to any other than Feanor, the Valar could have demanded them, as his withholding them would have been theft.

But even though I think it was morally wrong, he distrusted the Valar so I do not blame him. I understand. Morgoth fooled some of the Valar, and deceived much of the Noldor, and it is a sad thing that these lies got to Feanor but it is no wonder, even though I think the guy was already asking for trouble. Even while Miriel lived she had to restrain Feanor, and he was resentful of the slightest opposition. The guy was, even if not until later on, paranoid. I think the Valar failed him.

All the same he was selfish and too prideful. One does not have to like a person to forgive him, enjoy hearing about his actions, or even admire some of them or some of his personality traits.
I know a lot of people (and especially at one site ) either love Feanor and dislike Finrod, or love Finrod and Hate Feanor, but it is no so with everyone. I am a Feanor person too, I'll argue for him being a victim of Morgoth, but he was also a victim of his own jealous and prideful nature.

Should never have left the first page.


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## Miguel (Aug 28, 2018)

Finrod is to be loved. If films were made, the part were he finds men for the first time and learns of their troubles would make a pretty epic and reflexive scene if done well.

Is not that i hate Fëanor, he's a character that suffers greatly and he's bound to be misunderstood by many but he just went off the rails.


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## Ron Simpson (Aug 28, 2018)

As amply demonstrated above, the whole thing smacks of pre-ordainment by Eru Illuvator. Could the whole Silmaril & rebellion thing have turned out in any other way than it did ? Of course not! The whole thing is an 'Eru set-up', and everyone was given their roles to play - Feanor & Melkor alike. And all roles were played out to further Eru’s long, long, long, long-term master plans. People may argue for free will, but ONLY Feanor (bar none) could ever have made the Silmarils and that skill was in-born - but alas, so was his hot-headedness - and so the stage was set. (i.e. Eru gave him the gift and the flaw !) Feanor, et al were merely pawns on a board. So, what’s to love or hate in a ‘scripted’ pre-ordained pawn? The only sentiment that comes to mind is pity...


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## Miguel (Aug 28, 2018)

Ron Simpson said:


> As amply demonstrated above, the whole thing smacks of pre-ordainment by Eru Illuvator. Could the whole Silmaril & rebellion thing have turned out in any other way than it did ? Of course not! The whole thing is an 'Eru set-up', and everyone was given their roles to play - Feanor & Melkor alike. And all roles were played out to further Eru’s long, long, long, long-term master plans. People may argue for free will, but ONLY Feanor (bar none) could ever have made the Silmarils and that skill was in-born - but alas, so was his hot-headedness - and so the stage was set. (i.e. Eru gave him the gift and the flaw !) Feanor, et al were merely pawns on a board. So, what’s to love or hate in a ‘scripted’ pre-ordained pawn? The only sentiment that comes to mind is pity...



_*aurë entuluva *_


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## Elthir (Aug 30, 2018)

For myself, I believe in free will within Tolkien's world, even for the Quendi. 

This discussion often enough turns into opinions regarding the problem of evil in general, or how Iluvatar (God) can know the world's history without determining it -- CS Lewis attempts his explanation of the latter in his book _Mere Christianity_, and probably elsewhere. Of course I'm not saying Lewis "solved" either question (!), but Tolkien does appear to stamp that Iluvatar is "outside time", and a section of Tolkien's poem, _Mythopoeia, _reads_:_


"(…)
In Paradise perchance the eye may stray
from gazing upon everlasting Day
to see the day illumined, and renew
from mirrored truth the likeness of the True.
Then looking on the Blessed Land 'twill see
that all is as it is, and yet made free:
Salvation changes not, nor yet destroys,
garden nor gardener, children nor their toys.
 Evil it will not see, for evil lies
not in God's picture but in crooked eyes,
not in the source but in malicious choice,
 and not in sound but in the tuneless voice.
In Paradise they look no more awry;
and though they make anew, they make no lie.
Be sure they still will make, not being dead,
and poets shall have flames upon their head,
and harps whereon their faultless fingers fall:
there each shall choose for ever from the All."


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 30, 2018)

It's the eternal problem with theodicies. I've mentioned it before, but I'll repeat Northrop Frye's comment about "Paradise Lost":

_God knew that Adam would fall, but did not compel him to do so, and on that basis he disclaims legal responsibility. This argument is so bad that Milton, if he was trying to escape refutation, did well to ascribe it to God._


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## Gilgaearel (Oct 1, 2018)

A Finrod one. Feanor might be interesting as a book character but I can't relate with such an awful personality.


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## Elaini (Oct 11, 2018)

Definitely Finrod, Arafinwions are some of my favourite characters in that universe.

But I don't think Finrod is a non complicated character. Come to think about it, he's as proud, daring and determined as any Noldo, and vanity is his flaw (I recall three pieces of heirloom jewelry he carries, plus all the other treasures across Helcaraxë that bought many services). He also chose to continue to Middle-Earth despite he left Amarië behind, and he knew that going with Beren was a suicide mission that would eventually cost his kingdom.

To be honest, I enjoy grey morality such as Fëanor's too, but the hype for it has been overblown in fantasy a bit. Even in real life there are all types of saints, antiheroes, antivillains and villains, not just the two in the middle. In understand the need to remind that perfection is but a conception and make us come in terms with it, but sometimes things just can be kept very simple. It's the boredom we aim for.

If I chose to know someone personally in Arda I would go with Finrod, the safe, sane choice. As well as undoubtedly handsome, is it a crime to like the Fabio type?  (But he belongs with Amarië.)


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## Phuc Do (Mar 5, 2020)

I am a Finrod person but I find it more interesting reading about Feanor kind of characters.


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## Olorgando (Mar 5, 2020)

Finrod, it's not even vaguely a contest. He honored the pledge he gave Barahir to the latter's descendant Beren, even though he probably was aware that in doing so he would lose everything. For all of Fëanor's immense gifts, his overriding character traits were an arrogance, narcissism, intemperance and nihilism that were only surpassed by Melkor. Even Sauron comes across as saner, and certainly more pragmatic and temperate than Fëanor.


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## queennaerys (Mar 31, 2020)

I would say neither. One is so evil that he could be an orc and the other is so perfect that he is dreadfully boring. But this is my biggest issue with The Silmarillion. With the exception of Maeglin, if you were born to Indis or descend from her, you are perfect and all that is good in the world. If you were born to Miriel or descend from her, you are evil and/or cursed. This is to be expected of something that draws heavily from religious text, though, so I can't truly complain.

If I had to choose, I guess I would say Feanor since he has a character arc, however one-dimensional it is.


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## Sailawen (Apr 30, 2020)

Finrod. Fëanáro was a killer, insane person. He pretty much doomed the Ñoldor. Like please, it's just some gems. Go, Finrod!!


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## Alice (Apr 30, 2020)

I dunno what to choose. I never liked Finrod much, but Feanor... Well, don't love him too, but without him there could be no Silmarillion


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## Melkor (Sep 10, 2021)

I am personaly more Fëanor than Finrod (hot tempered, rash), but as a character I like Finrod much more than Fëanor. He's kind and wise and I don't think he is boring. I don't like his prejudices about love between elves and man (or at least I have that impression after reading Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, on the other hand he helped Beren in his quest for the silmaril and he knew about his love for Lúthien). But otherwise he's nice character, I especially like his curiosity.


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## Amarthon (Oct 2, 2021)

Fëanor.
I read the Silmarillion 43 years ago when it was released.
He's still the motivating character for me.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 2, 2021)

Welcome to TTF, Amarthon! If you'd like to introduce yourself, and say something about your particular interests, don't forget our New Members forum:








New Members


Meet and greet the newest TTF members. -- [ One thread per new member only! ] --




www.thetolkienforum.com


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 3, 2021)

Why would I prefer the horrible, murderous Fëanor? He's selfish, cruel, and abusive. He has no redeeming personal traits. Skills mean nothing when your personality are bad.


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## Amarthon (Oct 3, 2021)

ZehnWaters said:


> Why would I prefer the horrible, murderous Fëanor? He's selfish, cruel, and abusive. He has no redeeming personal traits. Skills mean nothing when your personality are bad.


A limited perspective. By your standards, most of the Noldor are evil. Caught between Fëanor and a Balrog, you're in a bad place.


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 3, 2021)

Amarthon said:


> A limited perspective. By your standards, most of the Noldor are evil. Caught between Fëanor and a Balrog, you're in a bad place.



Uh...no. Fëanor burned his son alive (though on accident) because he thought Amrod might abandon him and because he didn't want Maedhros to go back for his cousins. He was hateful, spiteful, and petty. He has no redeeming qualities. None.


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## Amarthon (Oct 3, 2021)

ZehnWaters said:


> Uh...no. Fëanor burned his son alive (though on accident) because he thought Amrod might abandon him and because he didn't want Maedhros to go back for his cousins. He was hateful, spiteful, and petty. He has no redeeming qualities. None.


Wrong. Just your opinion. He was driven, inspired, full of energy, brilliant , talented and a mover of history.


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## Olorgando (Oct 3, 2021)

I'll sign the hateful, spiteful, and petty part immediately, and probably add several more negative characteristics. As to 



Amarthon said:


> He was driven, inspired, full of energy, brilliant , talented and a mover of history.


What did he use all of these characteristics for?. Every single one of them is "dual use", it depends what what you use them *for*.
Mover of history? Whoopee! So were Attila the Hun, Genghis Khan, Timur Lenk, Napoleon, Hitler, Stalin ... the list is endless. Mass murderers all.
And so was Fëanor.


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## Amarthon (Oct 3, 2021)

Napoleon mass murderer? Do you use that description for all warriors and commanders?
I admire Fëanor, you obviously don't. I stand by my opinion.


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## Olorgando (Oct 3, 2021)

Amarthon said:


> Napoleon mass murderer? Do you use that description for all warriors and commanders?
> I admire Fëanor, you obviously don't. I stand by my opinion.


For all warriors and commanders who start an offensive war of conquest, yes, flatly and harshly.
And what was the Kinslaying at Alqualondë except mass murder?
About Fëanor we'll just have to agree to disagree, no room for compromise.


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## John (Oct 3, 2021)

I Love Feanor Because He Had The Courage to say No To Obeying The Valar and He Fought For What He Wanted


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## Amarthon (Oct 3, 2021)

Offensive warfare is NOT mass murder. What a ridiculous idea. Was the USA invading the Confederacy mass murder? How about the US invading French North Africa in WWII? Napoleon moved into Prussia after they declared war. I can cite many more examples.


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 3, 2021)

John said:


> I Love Feanor Because He Had The Courage to say No To Obeying The Valar and He Fought For What He Wanted


And what wisdom was there in that? He led everyone he touched into death, mutilation, or misery. Good job. It's almost like they understood things he didn't.


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 3, 2021)

Amarthon said:


> Wrong. Just your opinion. He was driven, inspired, full of energy, brilliant , talented and a mover of history.


Inspired? How? What intelligent move did he ever make? He was a brilliant craftsman. That's it! At lot of people move history. What positive way did he move it beyond his crafts? Even those contributions pale in comparison to the negative impacts he had on the world. He got himself and his sons rightfully damned. He got his own followers slaughtered. He slaughtered those who he claimed were his friends because they wouldn't do what he wanted. And because he thought their works were lesser than his own, he thought to take them for himself. He was just as bad as the enemy he claimed to hate.


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## Olorgando (Oct 3, 2021)

Offensive war of conquest, not retaliatory war, as was necessary to destroy Hitler's regime. And as to there being "reasons" for wars, sometimes there are, but many if not most are fabricated, aka lies. Every country, tribe, whatever unit you wish to use for collections of people, has its share of antisocial idiots that stir up trouble, for "Fëanorian" reasons, as I would put it. Though even the biggest, most antisocial idiot Hitler felt the need to at least have a few of his troops fake an attack using Polish uniforms, so he could claim that Nazi Germany was "shooting back."

International law has sanctioned warfare to a degree, but that just makes it state-sanctioned murder, instead of the kind that states generally have laws against. It's a concession to human reality, but just shows that the species name we have given ourselves, "Homo sapiens", is the worst misnomer in the entire nomenclature. We're more Orcs than (non-Noldorin) Elves.


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 3, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> It's a concession to human reality, but just shows that the species name we have given ourselves, "Homo sapiens", is the worst misnomer in the entire nomenclature. We're more Orcs than (non-Noldorin) Elves.


To be fair, we're still less violent, as a whole, than nearly every other predatory animal on the planet. We can go weeks, months, years, or even a whole lifetime without knowing any kind of interpersonal violence. No other creature can claim that.


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## Olorgando (Oct 3, 2021)

Physical violence, perhaps - though the unrecorded, because unreported cases of domestic violence are by all estimates far higher than the reported cases. And that's very probably not the only area where there are many unreported cases.
But we've invented many other forms of violence than physical violence; mobbing is the most obvious one to come to mind.
And as for that, were one able to "ask" all the other animals on the planet, predatory or not, about our "peacefulness" - we're certain to get a failing grade on that!


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 3, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> Physical violence, perhaps - though the unrecorded, because unreported cases of domestic violence are by all estimates far higher than the reported cases. And that's very probably not the only area where there are many unreported cases.



It could be 300% higher and it would still be staggeringly lower than wild animals.



Olorgando said:


> But we've invented many other forms of violence than physical violence; mobbing is the most obvious one to come to mind.



To quote MST3K: "Not better, just different."



Olorgando said:


> And as for that, were one able to "ask" all the other animals on the planet, predatory or not, about our "peacefulness" - we're certain to get a failing grade on that!



lol Fair enough. I suppose it depends on perspective.


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## Amarthon (Oct 3, 2021)

ZehnWaters said:


> And what wisdom was there in that? He led everyone he touched into death, mutilation, or misery. Good job. It's almost like they understood things he didn't.


Rebellion and standing up for yourself. Morgoth murdered his father and took the Light of the World for the third time. The Valar should have pursued Morgoth on the spot. But they were lazy or indifferent. Fëanor did the right thing. Life is tragedy.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Oct 3, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> ..So were Attila the Hun, Genghis Khan, Timur Lenk, Napoleon, Hitler, Stalin ...


At least,these guys were even much better than Feanor in politics,for knowing how to make the correct decisions according to the information gathered already, mostly. And Feanor?I wondered the Valars had better recheck there's anything went wrong during the procedure of creating Feanor's brain or not.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Oct 3, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> ...Offensive war of conquest, not retaliatory war, as was necessary to destroy Hitler's regime. And as to there being "reasons" for wars, sometimes there are, but many if not most are fabricated, aka lies. Every country, tribe, whatever unit you wish to use for collections of people, has its share of antisocial idiots that stir up trouble, for "Fëanorian" reasons, as I would put it. Though even the biggest, most antisocial idiot Hitler felt the need to at least have a few of his troops fake an attack using Polish uniforms, so he could claim that Nazi Germany was "shooting back."...


Thucydides Trap, that is. However, Feanor's declaration of war was no more than a brainless farce possibly, it's another matter if his whole state was in the "Berserk Mood", forcing him to do so, yet JRRT direct description proved the answer.


Amarthon said:


> ...Fëanor did the right thing. Life is tragedy...


He could be more correct if he smashed the Similari to flash Valinor just in time.


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 4, 2021)

Amarthon said:


> Rebellion and standing up for yourself. Morgoth murdered his father and took the Light of the World for the third time. The Valar should have pursued Morgoth on the spot. But they were lazy or indifferent. Fëanor did the right thing. Life is tragedy.



Uh., no. The Valar were smart in taking time to make a PLAN. Something Feanor would have been wise to actually do. Instead he just killed his supposed friends and took their stuff. Apparently that's "the right thing".


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## Inkling (Oct 4, 2021)

ZehnWaters said:


> Uh., no. The Valar were smart in taking time to make a PLAN. Something Feanor would have been wise to actually do. Instead he just killed his supposed friends and took their stuff. Apparently that's "the right thing".


Ok while I agree with you that Feanor obviously didn't always make the right choice, I feel like that isn't what we should be arguing here. We aren't, or at least, I'm not, trying to argue that. I just think Feanor more interesting. Feanor is literally such an ENTERTAINING character to read and study because he is full of contradictions. He's rash and impulsive, yes, but he is also an incredible genius. Also, I think Manwe was being pretty useless, and honestly, Morgoth just killed his father, his anger is understandable. Personally, I voted for Feanor because of his complexity. I can't associate with Finrod as much because he is portrayed as too perfect. It's Feanor's flaws juxtaposed with his strengths that make him one of the best characters, imo. It gives his character depth that is more entertaining to read.

Side note:
I am in fact, doing a declamation speech for one of my classes, and chose Feanor's speech upon Tuna, found mostly in Morgoth's Ring. So I might be a little biased haha


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 4, 2021)

Inkling said:


> Ok while I agree with you that Feanor obviously didn't always make the right choice, I feel like that isn't what we should be arguing here. We aren't, or at least, I'm not, trying to argue that. I just think Feanor more interesting. Feanor is literally such an ENTERTAINING character to read and study because he is full of contradictions.


See, to me he's just aggravating. He's not a character I love-to-hate. He's a character I want to die. Sauron is a character I love-to-hate.


Inkling said:


> He's rash and impulsive, yes, but he is also an incredible genius.


Uh...I mean he's a brilliant CRAFTSMAN. Academically he's genius. In practice you can see how limited his "genius" is (he dies pretty quick).


Inkling said:


> Also, I think Manwe was being pretty useless,


Sometimes. I think the Valar just started being more inclined towards "waiting and seeing".


Inkling said:


> and honestly, Morgoth just killed his father, his anger is understandable.


Fëanor had been in selfish and petty prior to his father's death.


Inkling said:


> Personally, I voted for Feanor because of his complexity. I can't associate with Finrod as much because he is portrayed as too perfect.


I didn't find Finrod too perfect unless one's standards are "doesn't kill family and friends because they didn't do what you wanted" to be the standard. In the Athrabeth we find him to be often being ethnocentric and mildly elitist. It should be noted he also went into exile which, in and of itself, is a sign of rebellion (both he and Galadriel dreamed of ruling their own realms).


Inkling said:


> Side note:
> I am in fact, doing a declamation speech for one of my classes, and chose Feanor's speech upon Tuna, found mostly in Morgoth's Ring. So I might be a little biased haha


lol No worries. I did a reading of the Ring Poem for Comm 101. Even broke out into Black Speech for the final lines.


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## Olorgando (Oct 4, 2021)

Inkling said:


> ... and honestly, Morgoth just killed his father, his anger is understandable. ...


Just btw, there were two other Noldorin princes that had suffered then same loss. I remain puzzled a bit at the alternatives Fëanor and Finrod (Felagund), Finarfin's son. Which brings me to the two of the same generation if of a different (Vanyar!) mother, Fingolfin and Finarfin. Did they react as nihilistically narcissistic as did Fëanor? Answer is a flat no. Add to that the scene where Fëanor threatens Fingolfin in the Sil, leading to the former's banishment within Valinor (Fëanor was the easiest mark for Morgoth's lies, the two sharing such a huge assortment of negative character traits). The place of banishment being the place where Morgoth killed his father Finwë (who had joined Fëanor in that exile to try and placate him - something that never worked with this nut). Had Fingolfin not let the utterly unjustified challenge slide, Fëanor would have joined his mother in the Halls of Mandos in very short order. As a warrior, he did not stand the ghost of a chance against Fingolfin (and as a commander of troops, the comparison worsens massively in Fëanor's disfavor).

And as to the whole bit about Morgoth's theft of the Silmarils, killing Finwë in the process:
I can well imagine Fëanor reacting as follows:

"What? He killed my dad? I'll make him pay for that!"

*"WHAT?!?!? HE STOLE THE SILMARILS?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?"*

_{Insert explosion sound of that 58-megaton hydrogen bomb the Soviet Union tested in 1961}_

And last, that highest treason ever committed by any Noldo in the entire legendarium: burning the ships,stolen from the Teleri with the mass murder at Alqualondë, forcing Fingolfin's (larger) group to cross the Helcaraxë (with non-trivial losses). How did Fingolfin react?
Now just imagine it had been Fingolfin who had crossed to Middle-earth in boats, and then left Fëanor staring in disbelief at not being picked up in the second wave? How would this second-largest pile of nihilistic, megalomaniac, narcissistic 💩💩💩💩💩 after Morgoth have reacted?


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 4, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> Just btw, there were two other Noldorin princes that had suffered then same loss. I remain puzzled a bit at the alternatives Fëanor and Finrod (Felagund), Finarfin's son. Which brings me to the two of the same generation if of a different (Vanyar!) mother, Fingolfin and Finarfin. Did they react as nihilistically narcissistic as did Fëanor?


Well, don't you know? Fëanor just loved his dad more. Or, you know, was just possessive of him (dude literally begrudged Finwë giving any amount of attention to someone besides himself).


Olorgando said:


> As a warrior, he did not stand the ghost of a chance against Fingolfin (and as a commander of troops, the comparison worsens massively in Fëanor's disfavor).


Fingolfin was a beast when it came to combat.


Olorgando said:


> Now just imagine it had been Fingolfin who had crossed to Middle-earth in boats, and then left Fëanor staring in disbelief at not being picked up in the second wave? How would this second-largest pile of nihilistic, megalomaniac, narcissistic 💩💩💩💩💩 after Morgoth have reacted?


Don't forget WHY he burned the ship. He WANTED the rest to either die or return to Valinor in humiliation. What's more, he didn't want Amrod to try and turn back and return to his (Amrod) mother.


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## Olorgando (Oct 4, 2021)

ZehnWaters said:


> Well, don't you know? Fëanor just loved his dad more. Or, you know, was just possessive of him (dude literally begrudged Finwë giving any amount of attention to someone besides himself).
> ...
> Don't forget WHY he burned the ship. He WANTED the rest to either die or return to Valinor in humiliation. What's more, he didn't want Amrod to try and turn back and return to his (Amrod) mother.


Adding these to my (large) Fëanor-bashing pile ... 😁


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## Peter86 (Feb 21, 2022)

Fëanor I think, partly because he is very much the opposite of what people would typically picture when they hear the word "elf" in any context.

It is easy to imagine elves as these innocent creatures who sing songs, write poetry and walk around and look pretty and non-confrontational;
and sure, I like elves like that as well, and this is largely how the Vanyar tend to be portrayed.
But it is also interesting when some elves show aggressive and vicious sides of themselves, and Fëanor is certainly a lot like that;
it is hard to imagine that he actually belongs to the same kindred as the spell-binding beautiful elves that the hobbits meet when they run into Gildor!

A few other examples of nasty elves are Celegorm, Caranthir, Curufin, Eöl and Maeglin.


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## m4r35n357 (Feb 21, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> Don't forget WHY he burned the ship. He WANTED the rest to either die or return to Valinor in humiliation. What's more, he didn't want Amrod to try and turn back and return to his (Amrod) mother.


Eru should be proud that Feanor, like Melkor, played a blinder


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## HALETH✒🗡 (Feb 21, 2022)

Eriol said:


> Didn't Bilbo write that it is very hard to write about good moments? (In Rivendell, The Hobbit). I guess so... it is much better to live in them.


Leo Tolstoy had a similar idea. 

But it doesn't mean that families do not want to be happy. Almost everyone wants to be happy and to communicate with people like Finrod. Tolkien (thanks to his talent) couldn't make such a great character as Finrod boring. So I voted for Finrod.


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## Melkor (Feb 21, 2022)

Interesting discussion on Fëanor. I understand, he wan't to pursue Melkor after he killed his father. But here my understandment for him ends. He was pretty insidious. No better than his enemy.

But I wonder what shape him to be like this? Death of his mother definitely play a part, but what else?


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## ZehnWaters (Feb 22, 2022)

Melkor said:


> Interesting discussion on Fëanor. I understand, he wan't to pursue Melkor after he killed his father. But here my understandment for him ends. He was pretty insidious. No better than his enemy.
> 
> But I wonder what shape him to be like this? Death of his mother definitely play a part, but what else?


The death of his mother but also her life. She, too, was stubborn to the point of harming others. While her actions weren't as bad they were seemingly magnified in her son who took that stubbornness to a ridiculous degree and also turned into a possessive, abusive, narcissistic sociopath. Most blamed Melkor but Fëanor was clearly like this BEFORE Melkor was released.


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## ZehnWaters (Feb 22, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> Adding these to my (large) Fëanor-bashing pile ... 😁


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