# Ungoliant



## Sauron (Dec 9, 2008)

What exactly was she? Of what order of spirits (Maiar, Valar) did she belong before she had been corrupted? The only passage I found to be helpful was from the beginning of Chapter 8: "Of the Darkening of Valinor", from the Silmarillion:

_'The Eldar knew not whence she came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwe, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service. But she had disowned her Master, desiring to be mistress of her own lust, taking all things to herself to feed her emptiness; and she fled to the south, escaping the assaults of the Valar and the hunters of Orome, for their vigilance had ever been to the north, and the south was long unheeded. Thence she had crept to the light of the Blessed Realm; for she hungered for light and hated it.

In a ravine she lived, and took shape as a spider of monstrous form, weaving her black webs in a cleft of the mountains. There she sucked up all light that she could find, and spun it forth again in dark nets of strangling gloom, until no light more could come to her abode; and she was famished.'_

Would anyone like to hazard their best guess?


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## YayGollum (Dec 9, 2008)

Maia, since the Valar have all been named, and every other Ainur thing was supposed to be called Maia. Some got more specific names, like balrogs and Istari, but only the ones that Eru liked the most got to be called Valar. They were also considered the most powerful, but I'm not entirely sure that the weakest one was stronger than the strongest Maiar type thing. But then, Ungoliant got scarier when she had more light in her, anyways. 

Via that quote, I don't see why we shouldn't assume that she is one of the Maiar types. Aren't plenty of other things taken as truth, when all we have to go on are elfish theories? Who watched and snickered as Maedhros jumped? Who came up with the pretty little story that Luthien died and convinced Mandos to bring her boyfriend back to life? How can we be sure that all of the elves that have been going to Valinor ever make it or are even welcomed if they get there? Is an army of Numenoreans really stuck in a cave somewhere, waiting for the end of the world? Stuff like that. I could keep going. 

Thinking of Ungoliant as an Ainur type thing makes all kinds of sense, to myself. They could take all kinds of forms and do all kinds of crazily magical type things. I also like the idea of her being an enigma, though. What are those things gnawing around, under the earth? Some of Eru's old college buddies that are exactly as boring? Early and discarded experiments of his? A big surprise for the end of the world? Where did the monsters come from that Orome used to hunt all over the place? Were any of them intelligent, like Ungoliant? She could be one of them and presumably made by Eru for people to be heroic at.


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## Illuin (Dec 9, 2008)

No one knows what Ungoliant is, or where she came from. But just for fun, I like to think of Ungoliant as a fallen Maia that was for a time in the service of Vairë the Weaver.

_



"She (Vairë) weaves tapestries and great webs of fine thread in the Halls of Mandos, and in the pattern therein the whole history of Arda can be traced back to the days of Creation"

Click to expand...

_ 
As Sauron learned the art of forging from Aulë; why not Ungoliant learning the art of “weaving” from Vairë? As Melkor seduced Sauron into his service, he did the same with Ungoliant, and she used the knowledge she obtained from Vairë to weave great webs of a different kind.

Of course this is unsubstantiated nonsense, but I’ll go with it.


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## YayGollum (Dec 9, 2008)

*mutters* But I still like the idea that she could be a Maiar type thing of the Varda order, what with her ability to somehow consume light and employ it towards Unlighting ends. Spiders and weaving make sense, too, though. She could be a child of both types, since I don't see why Ainur couldn't have kids.


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## Alcuin (Dec 9, 2008)

Illuin said:


> No one knows what Ungoliant is, or where she came from. ... I like to think of Ungoliant as a fallen Maia that was for a time in the service of Vairë the Weaver.


I had never considered that, *Illuin*. I think that’s an ingenious solution. <bows>


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## Úlairi (Dec 12, 2008)

Illuin said:


> No one knows what Ungoliant is, or where she came from. But just for fun, I like to think of Ungoliant as a fallen Maia that was for a time in the service of Vairë the Weaver.



CT has stated that Ungoliant's origins can be discerned from her previous subjagtion (which was subsequently rejected by her) to Melkor at the beginning of Eä. She is therefore a Úmaiar as she is not listed with the Valar.



Illuin said:


> As Sauron learned the art of forging from Aulë; why not Ungoliant learning the art of “weaving” from Vairë? As Melkor seduced Sauron into his service, he did the same with Ungoliant, and she used the knowledge she obtained from Vairë to weave great webs of a different kind.
> 
> Of course this is unsubstantiated nonsense, but I’ll go with it.



Unsubstantiated nonsense? Come on Illuin, give yourself a little more credit than that. What's TTF without a little nonsense?


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## ltnjmy (Dec 18, 2008)

Illuin said:


> No one knows what Ungoliant is, or where she came from. But just for fun, I like to think of Ungoliant as a fallen Maia that was for a time in the service of Vairë the Weaver.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Dear Iluin,

Your insight into Ungoliant was great. I always thought that she had to be a fallen Maia - and it would fit if she once served Vaire the Weaver.

Very truly yours, ltnjmy


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## Bucky (Dec 23, 2008)

Folks love to interject theories of their own into Tolkien's work, and that's fine - the author did it himself when there was no 'absolute truth' to fall back on in his texts......

But, as often is the case, there IS a 'scripture' to tell us about Ungoliant, and she doesn't, as good as it sounds, belong to the 'people' of ANY Vala but Malkor in the beginning:

From Chapter 8, The Silm:

The Eldar knew not wence she came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor FIRST looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwe, and that in the beginning she was one of those he (Melkor) corrupted to his service. ....'

Now, we can gleen from this that:

1. Ungoliant came into Arda from the Void, like all Ainur & as CT says, we can therefore deduce she is a Maia.

2. She was with Melkor from the beginning & therefore not in Valinor.


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## Ithrynluin (Dec 23, 2008)

> 1. Ungoliant came into Arda from the Void, like all Ainur & as CT says, we can therefore deduce she is a Maia.



How does that tell us she's a Maia? Why not a Vala? Or a special case like Tom Bombadil? Or something wholly different?
Unfortunately, I don't see any evidence for any of those, all we are left with is conjecture or, at best, educated guesses.

Also, I don't think we can say the Ainur came from the Void. I always imagined they were in Eru's "halls":



> _Ainulindalë_
> But Ilúvatar arose in splendour, and he went forth from the fair regions that he had made for the Ainur; and the Ainur followed him.
> But when they were come into the Void, Ilúvatar said to them: 'Behold your Music!'



Besides, this paragraph is tentative enough to begin with:



> _The Eldar knew not whence she came; but some have said _that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor FIRST looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwe, and that in the beginning she was one of those he (Melkor) corrupted to his service. ....'


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## YayGollum (Dec 23, 2008)

I am with the ithrynluin person, on at least some parts of this. I like the idea of Ungoliant being something superly cool and unique. She couldn't be a Valar type, since that was just a title that only a few people got. A Maiar type thing makes sense, too. And she could have been seen as a follower of any of the Valar types before she met Mel, went to Arda, or Valinor was invented. She need not have been seen as a subordinate to anybody, though. She could have had all kinds of crazy powers. Mel need not be the only guy with a decent combination.

Towards regions of the Void, I had thought that there were different sections of the place, at least so that the souls of humans and how they were doing was kept a secret from the Ainur still out there who could apparently head for Arda at any time. I am wondering, though, what was so cool about Eru's Halls? I figured that everything in Arda was thought up by the Ainur, which is why they were so attached to it. If they had just copied a bunch of stuff from Eru, Arda would have just been a cool little clubhouse for kids. 

Anyways, ithynluin person, are we not supposed to assume that the elves we get all of these crazy ideas from are correct? Of course, I have no problems with calling the idea of Turin elfbane killing poor Mel a lie.


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## Ithrynluin (Dec 23, 2008)

Sure the number of Valar in Arda was limited, and Ungoliant couldn't have been one of that number, but I don't see why she couldn't have been a Vala in everything but the name, i.e. that she was an Ainu of a higher level of power, because not all of the Valar-type Ainur entered Arda. Why should this be any less of a possibility than her being a Maia or something completely different?

My comment on Eru's halls and the Void was directed at Bucky because he stated the Ainur came from the Void and seemed to draw some kind of dubious conclusion that Ungoliant must have been a Maia.

Sure, we can _assume_. But if the elves' ideas on certain matters were already diluted/obscured, how diluted was this knowledge coming into the possession of (many generations of) men?


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## YayGollum (Dec 23, 2008)

Makes sense. And I was always figuring that Mel was out in the Void making all kinds of friends with Ainur who just didn't feel like coming to Arda and were way more powerful than the Valar types. They just had a fancy title, and I figured that any Ainur without that title was called a Maia. If Ungoliant was an Ainur type thing, should would have to be called a Maia. Otherwise, she's something different and awesome.


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## ltnjmy (Dec 23, 2008)

I've really enjoyed reading the recent posts to this thread - thank you all !!


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## Bucky (Dec 23, 2008)

*Well, first, I was basing part of my assumption on the post that said this:*

CT has stated that Ungoliant's origins can be discerned from her previous subjagtion (which was subsequently rejected by her) to Melkor at the beginning of Eä. She is therefore a Úmaiar as she is not listed with the Valar.

*I hope it's accurate; I just took it for granted & ran with it. That's why I made the leap (and I believe it's true) that Ungoliant is a 'Maia' or 'Ainu' .....

It's really just semantics which term you use, 'Vala' or 'Maia'. These terms exist within the confines of Arda only. 
Outside Arda, both Vala & Maia are all Ainur, the same Order.
Calling them Valar or Maiar just shows a realitive 'greatness' or noblity' of spirit. Even the Valar are divisable into higher, the 'Aratar' & the 'regular Valar' (sorry, Tolkien didn't give us another name, lol).

Tolkien further states in HoME Volume 10, 'Myths Transformed' VIII that 'Melkor had corrupted many spirits - SOME greater, as Sauron (who else? Ungoliant perhaps?) or less so, as Balrogs (sorry, Balrog fanatics). The least of these could have been primitive (and much more powerful and perilous - author) Orcs (Orc Captains of the First Age)...'

So, we see here that there is a HUGE variance in the power/greatness/nobility (whatever word you chose) of those spirits that in origin were all called Ainur.


On 'The Void', yes I admit there is a difference between being with Eru & being in 'the Void' - I admit it never really dawned on me!
I guess that's because I hate reading 'The Music' - bores me stiff.....

Should've dawned on me that Morgoth was 'thrust into the Void' though.

However, let us keep in mind that Melkor often went into the Void seeking the Imperishable Flame. Is it possible other Ainur did the same, especially those alligned with Melkor, such as Ungoliant, and that is why it says she came into Arda 'from the Void'?
For all we know, the Balrogs may have entered into Arda from the Void too.......


Just to change topics for second.......

*

Aren't plenty of other things taken as truth, when all we have to go on are elfish theories? Who watched and snickered as Maedhros jumped? Who came up with the pretty little story that Luthien died and convinced Mandos to bring her boyfriend back to life? How can we be sure that all of the elves that have been going to Valinor ever make it or are even welcomed if they get there? Is an army of Numenoreans really stuck in a cave somewhere, waiting for the end of the world? Stuff like that. I could keep going. 

*I must find I agree somewhat with Yaygollum on this one......

I mentioned it a while back somewhere.
Like the story of Earendil killing Ancalagon the Black.
Are we supposed to actually believe a sailing ship appeared in the sky & a guy with a 3 to 4 foot sword slew a dragon big enough to take out three HUGE mountain peaks (perhaps a little embelishment there too?) that was not taken at unawares ala Turin? Doesn't this sound more like a legend that grows in the telling than gospel truth?
Let us not forget that there were no Elves from Middle-earth present & only some Edain & there where countless Maiar, good & evil fighting, all kinds of dragon fire, etc.

Wouldn't a more likely scenario be that a blast from a Maia, perhaps even Olorin, 'wielder of the Flame of Anor' went through Ancalagon & killed him, ending the battle soon after & then Morgoth was brought forth & his crown shown forth with the Simarils.......

Now, how many lowly Men would be close to Ancalagon the Black when he was fighhting to begin with?
Few I bet......

As the battle ends, they probably see the Simarils flash forth when taken from Morgoth, see Ancalagon lying on Thangorodrim, & after a few hundred years, it goes from a couple Silmarils shining brilliantly around Ancalagon lying ON a partly ruined single peak of Thangorodrim to Earendil showing up in a boat with the third Silmaril on his brow stabbing this dragon a hundred times his original size, destroying fifty times the mountainside that was really damaged.

Thoughts? *


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## Úlairi (Jan 12, 2009)

Bucky said:


> *Well, first, I was basing part of my assumption on the post that said this:*
> 
> CT has stated that Ungoliant's origins can be discerned from her previous subjagtion (which was subsequently rejected by her) to Melkor at the beginning of Eä. She is therefore a Úmaiar as she is not listed with the Valar.
> 
> *I hope it's accurate; I just took it for granted & ran with it. That's why I made the leap (and I believe it's true) that Ungoliant is a 'Maia' or 'Ainu' .....*


 
It is accurate. There's a little note in _Morgoth's Ring_ about it - but I'll leave that one up to the quote experts. 



Bucky said:


> *It's really just semantics which term you use, 'Vala' or 'Maia'. These terms exist within the confines of Arda only. *
> *Outside Arda, both Vala & Maia are all Ainur, the same Order.*
> *Calling them Valar or Maiar just shows a realitive 'greatness' or noblity' of spirit. Even the Valar are divisable into higher, the 'Aratar' & the 'regular Valar' (sorry, Tolkien didn't give us another name, lol).*


 
Yes, but semantics are important to a _philologist_, no?  



Bucky said:


> *Tolkien further states in HoME Volume 10, 'Myths Transformed' VIII that 'Melkor had corrupted many spirits - SOME greater, as Sauron (who else? Ungoliant perhaps?) or less so, as Balrogs (sorry, Balrog fanatics). The least of these could have been primitive (and much more powerful and perilous - author) Orcs (Orc Captains of the First Age)...'*


 
You're pretty much dead on there; but it still isn't the quote I was referring to.



Bucky said:


> *So, we see here that there is a HUGE variance in the power/greatness/nobility (whatever word you chose) of those spirits that in origin were all called Ainur.*


 
*high five* Yah, dead on. I don't have my books here but have a little read of _The Silmarillion_ and _Morgoth's Ring_ here - there's a *very good reason* why Morgoth quailed at the sheer bulk of Ungoliant and why a Úmaiar was capable of overpowering him. It's pretty dang obvious. I just find it ironic that whenever there is a divergence of opinion on these matters the discussion seems to end abruptly. It's not really much of a discussion board unless you wish to talk about your fave Tolkien moments.



Bucky said:


> *On 'The Void', yes I admit there is a difference between being with Eru & being in 'the Void' - I admit it never really dawned on me!*
> *I guess that's because I hate reading 'The Music' - bores me stiff.....*
> 
> *Should've dawned on me that Morgoth was 'thrust into the Void' though.*


 
What about the concept that the Void was an encapsulating entity that embodied the realm outside Arda and these _fair places_ were _containted within_? That's an equally valid textual inference. You don't need to concede defeat here Bucky... at all.



Bucky said:


> *However, let us keep in mind that Melkor often went into the Void seeking the Imperishable Flame. Is it possible other Ainur did the same, especially those alligned with Melkor, such as Ungoliant, and that is why it says she came into Arda 'from the Void'?*
> *For all we know, the Balrogs may have entered into Arda from the Void too.......*


 
LOL. Maybe she was so hungry she wanted to devour the Flame Imperishable!  




Bucky said:


> *Just to change topics for second.......*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
The _Quenta Silmarillion_ is an Elvish account of legend. It doesn't sound any crazier than a four-foot Hobbit slaying the Last Child of Ungoliant.

*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


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## Alcuin (Jan 18, 2009)

I understood the Void not as an “encapsulating entity” or region, but an unformed or unworked space, outside the presence of Eru and outside Arda. Those in the Void appear in context to be lost and alone: a thoroughly unpleasant place.


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