# fate of orcs



## morgoth_1907 (Nov 8, 2005)

When I am reading the thread about fate of men, I thought about orcs. Where do they go, after they die? They was elves until morgoth change them. Is their fate similar to elves? Do they go to Halls of Mandos or does Illuvatar make "hell" for them?


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## baragund (Nov 8, 2005)

Morgoth, you touched on an interesting and much discussed topic.

In the published Silmarillion, there _is_ a conundrum over the fate of the orcs. Tolkien described them as Elves who have been corrupted, tortured and mutated by Melkor to create the race of the orcs. But he did not address what happened to them when they died. If they went to the Halls of Mandos like the uncorrupted Elves, there would be a most awkward "family reunion" but on the other hand, Tolkien did not decribe any other place (like a Hell) for the evil things of Middle-earth.

Tolkien tried to solve this problem in his later writings (that can be found in vol. XI and XII of the History of Middle-earth Series) by describing orcs as more bestial (altered from animals) rather than having Elvish origins.

Hope this helps. And welcome to the forum!


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## Gothmog (Nov 8, 2005)

Even in the Sil. Tolkien did not definately describe them as 'Elves who have been corrupted'. The part that contains that information is as follows:


> But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor *little is known of a certainty*. For who of the living has descended into the pits of Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor? *Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa*, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes. For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar; and naught that had life of its own, not the semblance of life, could ever Melkor make after his rebellion in the Ainulindalë before the Beginning: *so say the wise*. And deep in their dark hearts the Orcs loathed the Master whom they served in fear, the maker only of their misery. This it may be was the vilest deed of Melkor, and the most hateful to Ilúvatar.


As you can see, even at that point in the writing Tolkien would not go so far as to give a difinitive statement of the matter. He wrote it as what the Elves themselves believed about it. Since the elves (even the wise among them) did not have certain knowledge of this matter, the question was and remains open. 

So to does the question of Orc Fate.


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## morgoth_1907 (Nov 9, 2005)

baragund said:


> Tolkien tried to solve this problem in his later writings (that can be found in vol. XI and XII of the History of Middle-earth Series) by describing orcs as more bestial (altered from animals) rather than having Elvish origins.
> 
> Hope this helps. And welcome to the forum!


wow! are they more bestial? I am really surprised. Can you give me a quote? 
I havent read HoME since it is not translated into my language.
thanx Gothmog and baragund for helps.


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