# Dragons?



## arisen pheonix (Jan 16, 2004)

ok this maybe a stupid question....but if evil cannot create living things only corrupt and such...(orcs, trolls, ring wraiths, ect...)...how did we get dragons?....


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## Gothmog (Jan 16, 2004)

Breeding and Evolution. 

*dives back into the shadow to avoid all the knives being thrown by creationists*


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## Saermegil (Jan 16, 2004)

We get them from were we get the other animals, from Eru. However, this is something I just thought of, never read it anywhere and have no evidence for. Boy, is my case strong!


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## Lantarion (Jan 16, 2004)

Maybe they are a mockery of Eagles? But how would melkor have gotten some of Manwë's Eagles? 
And then again I see the 'Fell Beasts' of the Nazgûl to be mockeries of the Eagles, so...


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## grendel (Jan 16, 2004)

Well, they are called "worms"... p'rapsy that's what Melkor started with...


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## arisen pheonix (Jan 17, 2004)

i see...but how exactly do you cross a worm and an eagle....?...(they should really make a book....Understanding the Thoughts and Actions of Your All Time Evil Lord)


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## Eledhwen (Jan 18, 2004)

I have just found a neat and concise essay on Tolkien's dragons here. Warning... lots of irritating pop-ups.


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## celebdraug (Jan 19, 2004)

intersting....


> Mighty reptilian creatures who ranked among the most feared of the servants of the Dark Lord. Of the origins of dragons, no tale tells; the first of them to be seen was Glaurung, Father of Dragons, who first issued from Angband in the middle of the First Age. After Glaurung came many others to strike fear into Elves and Men for the next three ages; among them were Ancalagon the first winged dragon, Scatha who dwelt in the cold northern wastes, and Smaug, last of the great dragons.


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## Inderjit S (Jan 20, 2004)

I guess the origins of the Dragons may be an enigma.


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## Helcaraxë (Jan 20, 2004)

Perhaps they were spirits akin to the Ainur? In BoLT Tolkien decribes how there were many spirits besides the Valar and the Ainur. Perhaps they were lesser spirits that descended into Arda and were corrupted? But no, this cannot be, as Glaurung was the first dragon> Or, perhaps, was he the first dragon to take physcial form?  


~H-ë


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## Bucky (Jan 23, 2004)

_i see...but how exactly do you cross a worm and an eagle....?..._

Dinner?

Birds eat worms.....



_Perhaps they were spirits akin to the Ainur? In BoLT Tolkien decribes how there were many spirits besides the Valar and the Ainur. Perhaps they were lesser spirits that descended into Arda and were corrupted? But no, this cannot be, as Glaurung was the first dragon> Or, perhaps, was he the first dragon to take physcial form?_

"And Glaurung spoke (to Turin) by THE FELL SPIRIT that was in him."  

Hummm.........


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## Eledhwen (Jan 24, 2004)

Eagles are always depicted as noble in Tolkien's works, and a worm was not a scientific tag as it is today; and I imagine that dragons were called worms because they could worm their long bodies and tended to live in holes in the ground (caves etc.)

And, like Saruman's dabblings in Ring lore, some things ought not to be known.


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## Flame of Udûn (Jan 24, 2004)

The Old English _wyrm_ itself seems to descend from an Old Norse word, _ormr_, meaning "serpent". The Greek word _drakon_ means "serpent", too, so that if we follow the history of the words back far enough, "worm" and "serpent" both mean exactly the same thing.
- EoA


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## Úlairi (Jan 25, 2004)

They have to be Ainur, plain and simple, only possibility. It was even considered at a time that the first Orks were Ainur also in _Morgoth's Ring_. If the Ainur could take on the form of Balrogs and then Orks, the I can see no reason why they couldn't become dragons.


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## Gothmog (Jan 25, 2004)

I agree with you about them being Ainur spirits. However, I believe that they are "Weaker" Ainur like the Ents. Not able to Self-incarnate so the Bodies of the Dargons were bred and then the spirits took over the bodies.


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## arisen pheonix (Jan 27, 2004)

i see...but the million dollar question is...bred from what...


worm/serpent seems to be a fairly common occurance through the LOTR...but what exactly does it represent....? 


from a more scientific approach could dragons have been bred from ME type dinosuars?...it is logical to assume that ME may very well have had its own simillar time period....wheres a geological calender when you need one?....or perhaps the great bats....and a kind of aligator type reptile?


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## Flame of Udûn (Jan 28, 2004)

I can see Morgoth being able to create "constructions" of creatures, with no wills of their own, similarly to Aulë making the Dwarves. To make them alive, however, Morgoth imbued the previously created material forms with spirits, while the enlivening of the Dwarves was achieved by Eru, giving them new souls that had not before existed.


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## Tinuvien21 (Feb 9, 2004)

I have a question. There are evil dragons in Tolkien's works like: Smaug, Glaurung, Ancalagon the Black, and etc. but are there any good dragons in there?


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## Dáin Ironfoot I (Feb 9, 2004)

> Perhaps they were spirits akin to the Ainur? In BoLT Tolkien decribes how there were many spirits besides the Valar and the Ainur. Perhaps they were lesser spirits that descended into Arda and were corrupted? But no, this cannot be, as Glaurung was the first dragon> Or, perhaps, was he the first dragon to take physcial form?


Forgive my lack of quote, but I specifically remember the Dragons actually putting up a decent fight against the Valar. It said something like 'the Dragons issued forth from Angband, and restrained the hosts Valar for a day,' or something similar. For that reason, they had to be lesser Ainur, or else how could they actually hinder the progress of the Valar and Vanyar? The only other instance of a lesser being hindering a Vala is of Fingolfin and Morgoth. So this mentioning of Dragons putting up a decent fight should be noted.


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## Huan the Hound (Feb 10, 2004)

When you get down to it, it seems that every intelligent race (or, more particularly, every race of beast capable of speaking) came from one of two places: They were either created by the will of illuvatar or one of the powerful valar (ie, Aule and the dwarves), or they were a spirit already in existence that came into a new body: the ents for instance. If Aule can create the dwarves, why can't Melkor simply create Dragons? Of course, this theory is overcome by other anechdotes: creatures like Tom Bombadil and Goldberry. Where did they come from? What are they? And if we are to believe Bombadil's tales, then all sorts of animals can talk. Where did hobbits come from? Where did Ungoliant get her Huge Spider Body from after she had become evil? 

I was not aware that the Tolkien quote existed that all evil things were a perversion of another thing. Does anyone recall where that quote comes from? Do you think this applies to Wargs?

Ultimately, no matter we want to decide, unless Tolkien says specifically how Dragons were created, then we cannot know. His world is so anachronistic, there is simply no way to establish FOR CERTAIN where anything originates from... And this is the engine for the wonder that exists in ME!

Here's my theory: when Gandalf was chasing the Balrog through the bottom of the world, he said that there were enormous worms that lived down there. I bet Melkor found such creatures, perverted and torturted them until they becamse huge and freakish and mean, and possessed them with the spirits of evil Ainurs. Vua La, Dragons! The tricky part was convincing them to fly!


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## Isthir (Feb 12, 2004)

arisen pheonix said:


> ok this maybe a stupid question....but if evil cannot create living things only corrupt and such...(orcs, trolls, ring wraiths, ect...)...how did we get dragons?....


I do no know of any instance in which it is stated that evil cannot create living things. If it is true I would appreciate a quote from someone that says it is.

As for the question of Melko's ability to create life, yes it is very possible that he could do so. For even Aulë, a Vala of lesser power than Morgoth's, created the Dwarves in his inpatience of waiting for the Firstborn. It is true that each living creation made by a Vala was incomplete in comparision to the creations of Eru, for only they had true freedom of thought. The Dragons and Balrogs are not entirely free of their to think on their own, which would have been a desire of Melkor anyways, but instead must bend to the will of their maker.

Now, if a quote is provided that says that evil cannot create living things, then I shall go further with that information. As for now it can be counted that my two cents have been tossed in.

-Isthir​


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## Lantarion (Feb 13, 2004)

Isthir the point is that Evil, i.e. Melkor cannot create original and new life; it/he has to corrupt and disfigure something existing to call it something 'new', which isn't true life in the actual sense.
I'm surprised you didn't know that, I thought you had read the Silmarillion.  But we can't remember everything. 


Isthir said:


> The Dragons and Balrogs are not entirely free of their to think on their own, which would have been a desire of Melkor anyways, but instead must bend to the will of their maker.


I would, in turn, appreciate a quote or instance where a Balrog or Dragon does something solely because its "Lord" commands it. There is no reason to believe, as I see it, that both Valaraukar and Dragons were not completely capable of independent and even brilliant thought; just look at Smaug! His thoughts and actions were all self-serving; and I don't see how Durin's Bane would have been controlled by any higher authority, as nobody was aware it was there until fairly recently (at the time of the narrative).


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