# why did'nt Eru retract Melkor from arda?



## Telëlambe (Sep 2, 2003)

Can anyone shed some light on why the man upstaris (Eru) did'nt retract Melkor after the destruction of the lamps, and the destruction of his preciouse arda (which pleased him so) or even stranger; when Melkor percerted the elves and ents and produced orcs and trolls which was "most hatefull to him." and this leads to more questions, why did'nt he strip Melkor of his power when he was chained, or destroyed the tree's, Eru even changed the world when a fleet of men waged battle against the Valar, but did nothing about utumno and angband? 

see what you think, 
this should be interesting.


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## Celebthôl (Sep 2, 2003)

Because its a question of free will, Eru wont interfier even if the will is being used as it was by Morgoth in a bad way. It wasnt until his time for punishment came that he was delt with, but only by the Valar and not Ilúvatar himself.


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## Telëlambe (Sep 2, 2003)

but why did he punish the numenorians (of altho of lesser mind and body) for their rebellion against aman without being caught, and both melkor and the numens came from the thought of he that was alone


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## Gothmog (Sep 2, 2003)

> Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done.* And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined*.'


 The Silmarillion: AINULINDALË: The Music of the Ainur

The time that you are talking about is after the Ainur had decended into Arda. The Music of the Ainur had already finished. All that Melkor did in Arda was already set. Eru would have had to stop Melkor during the Music to have any effect on what happened later during the making of Arda and later.

So it was not a case of Why did Eru not remove Melkor at the points you give. Eru had to either stop Melkor in the Music or allow Arda Marred. Since as the above quote shows, Eru was using *All* the Ainur to create Arda, he then had to allow all that Melkor had put into the Music to happen.


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## Telëlambe (Sep 2, 2003)

so whould this mean the the the change of the world was sung in the great song, because it states that it was manwe who asked iluvatar to put a stop to the men who rebelled as it was not in his power...


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## Gothmog (Sep 2, 2003)

Not necessarily. Men were different from the Ainur and from Elves.


> For it is said that after the departure of the Valar there was silence, and for an age Ilúvatar sat alone in thought. Then he spoke and said: 'Behold I love the Earth, which shall be a mansion for the Quendi and the Atani! But the Quendi shall be the fairest of all earthly creatures, and they shall have and shall conceive and bring forth more beauty than all my Children; and they shall have the greater bliss in this world. But to the Atani I will give a new gift.' Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; *but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest*.
> But Ilúvatar knew that Men, being set amid the turmoils of the powers of the world, would stray often, and would not use their gifts in harmony; and he said. 'These too in their time shall find that all that they do redounds at the end only to the glory of my work.' yet the Elves believe that Men are often a grief to Manwë, who knows most of the mind of Ilúvatar; for it seems to the Elves that Men resemble Melkor most of all the Ainur, although he has ever feared and hated them, even those that served him.


 The Silmarillion: Quenta Silmarillion: Chapter 1: Of The Beginning of Days.

The actions of Men were not all foretold in the Music. Although Melkors acts were. So Melkor had to be allowed to do that which he had put into the Music and so also for those that he attracted to him. But it cannot with absolute certainty be said that the change of the World was in the Music as this came about by the actions of Men. The change of the world could however have been in the Music but the exact reason would not. Much of what Men did and have yet to do would have been in the Music but men could use that as a starting point and go beyond what the Ainur created for Eru.


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## Arvedui (Sep 3, 2003)

I just want to add one more thing to the quotes from Gothmog:


> There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Ilúvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, *that were offspring of his thought,* and they were with him before aught else was made.



Kind of hard to stop your thoughts, once you had already thought it.

There was a discussion about this a bit earlier on in the thread Melkor - Evil By will or Evil by Nature? 
I see it is in the archives now.


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## Inderjit S (Sep 6, 2003)

Removing Melkor from Arda, would also lead to it's destruction, since he transfered so much of his power into Arda. Besides, Arda would be boring if there was no Melkor.


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## Telëlambe (Sep 7, 2003)

ok, fair doo. what about sauron. before melkor was caught he poured most of his remaining power into sauron. and also sauron wasnt bound to arda as melkor was, so why wasnt sauron removed?


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## Gothmog (Sep 7, 2003)

> For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies of as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years. *And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed*; whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men and Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt.


 From Unfinished Tales: The Istari.

Well Melkor did not pour his remaining power into Sauron. However, Sauron could to some extent make use of the power Melkor had dispersed through Arda. As for the Valar removing Sauron this would have been a continuation of the errors of the first Age where they did too much to try to protect the Elves. This also was the beginning of the Time of Man and the Valar knew less of Men than Elves.

Therefore, to avoid making the same mistakes again and weakening the Children of Ilúvatar they sent the Istari to give limited help while allowing Men, Elves, Dwarves and all Good creatures of Middle-earth to remove Sauron themselves.

Eru would not remove him for the same reasons he would not remove Melkor. Sauron also had his part to play in the history of Arda. Except in gravest circumstances Eru would not directly interfere with what happened in Arda, that was the job of the Valar.


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## Inderjit S (Sep 7, 2003)

> It is very reasonable to suppose that Manwe knew that beforel ong (as he saw 'time') the Dominion of Men must begin, and the making of history would then be committed to them: for their struggle with Evil special arrangements had been made! Manwe knew of Sauron, of course. He had commanded Sauron to come before him for judgement, but had left room for repentance and ultimate rehabilitation. Sauron had refused and had fled into hiding. Sauron, however, was a problem that Men had to deal with finally: the first of the many concentrations of Evil into definite power-points that they would have to combat, as it was also the last of those in 'mythological' personalized
> (but non-human) form.


 _Myths Transformed; HoME 10_ 

This quote, in part answers some of your question celelambe.


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