# The red star in the South



## Erestor Arcamen (Jan 2, 2005)

> But low in the South one star shone red. Frodo could see it from his window, deep in the heavens, burning like a watchful eye that glared above the trees on the brink of the valley.


 Page 267, The Fellowship of the Ring, The Ring Goes South.

Does anyone have any idea what this red star is? Or is it just a that, a star? I dont know but it isnt possible it could be the eye of Sauron is it? I mean that's really far away and all. I don know anyone have any ideas?


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## Barliman Butterbur (Jan 2, 2005)

*Re: Red Star?*



Erestor Arcamen said:


> Page 267, The Fellowship of the Ring, The Ring Goes South.
> 
> Does anyone have any idea what this red star is? Or is it just a that, a star? I dont know but it isnt possible it could be the eye of Sauron is it? I mean that's really far away and all. I don know anyone have any ideas?



I would imagine that this is the Middle-earth equivalent of Mars, which appears with a reddish light under certain atmospheric conditions.

Barley


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## GuardianRanger (Jan 2, 2005)

*Re: Red Star?*

An alternative....

According to the Tale of Years...

Frodo recovers and wakes [in Rivendell] on October 24. The company sets out from Rivendell on December 25th.

If Frodo truely saw a red star, he probably would have seen Aldebaran, which is the Eye of Taurus, and is in between Orion and Pleiades in the south eastern sky.

Aldebaran is easy to see in late October, through the winter, as it is a bright red star. Mars, the planet, is typically viewable in the summer months and is occaisionally around in the fall/winter.

Just my take.


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## Urambo Tauro (Jan 3, 2005)

*Re: Red Star?*

An excerpt from Saruman's book in the films mentions the "red star of Sauron".
Saruman's book is kind of like his personal notebook, so when you read it, you find many fragments and ideas. A couple of quotes read: (I left it all capitalized, since there are no capitalization marks in the Tengwar Saruman uses)


> ASCENSION OF THE RED STAR OF SAURON
> WHEN EAREDIL IS ALREADY IN THE HEAVENS
> THE INFLUENCE OF EARENDIL CANNOT BE
> UNDERESTIMATED





> THE RED STAR OF SAURON JOINS
> THESE ALIGNMENTS AT VARIOUS
> TIMES WITH THE POSSIBILITY
> THAT ALL EFFECTS
> ...


These are from the film version, so I don't think they bear much weight, but it seems as though it might have something with your "red star".
Do the books ever mention the "red star of Sauron"?


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## Urambo Tauro (Jan 3, 2005)

*Re: Red Star?*

I found something in the _Quenta Silmarillion_...
Chapter III, _Of the Coming of the Elves and the_ _Captivity of Melkor_ mentions "Carnil", its very name describing it as "red".


> She _(Varda)_ took the silver dews from the vats of Telperion, and therewith she made new stars and brighter against the coming of the Firstborn_... _Carnil_... (etc.)_ she wrought in that time, and many other of the ancient stars she gathered together and set as signs in the heavens of Arda:_..._


This appears to have nothing to do with Sauron, though...
Still curious about a "red star of Sauron"... Your quote from _TLOTR_ seems to label the star as "hostile" in some way.


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## Uminya (Jan 3, 2005)

*Re: Red Star?*

I have forgotten what the name of the star was according to the book...hmm...I always took it to be Sirius, the Dog-Star, which is red and quite luminous.


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## GuardianRanger (Jan 3, 2005)

*Re: Red Star?*

I believe Sirius is either white or blue. Sirius is one of the highest magnitude stars (outside of the sun) visible in the night sky. Coincidently, it is visible in the northern hemisphere, now, after 9:00 (from my location) below Orion.


Urambo Tauro, just a quick question...where did you see what was written in Saruman's book? Did you just stop your movie, or is there a site with the book blown up so you can see the detail? That looks pretty interesting.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Jan 3, 2005)

*Re: Red Star?*



GuardianRanger said:


> An alternative....
> 
> According to the Tale of Years...
> 
> ...




Pardon my abysmal lack when it comes to astronomy — but if a sun was red, wouldn't that mean it was a giant star ready to go out? Is Aldebaran like that? Are there visible stars that we can see that are so old that they actually glow red? (And let us not forget that Mars is a red planet, not a star). Please correct any misconceptions I may have!

Barley


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## Eledhwen (Jan 3, 2005)

*Red Star? Maybe I'm being idle, but...*



GuardianRanger said:


> Sirius is visible in the northern hemisphere, now, after 9:00 (from my location) below Orion.


9.00, and you give your location as 'the swamps of Jersey'. I have been to the Channel Islands (about the same longitude as me and a little south), and there aren't any swamps big enough to be inhabitable, so I assume you mean a different Jersey. How many hours backwards/forwards do I have to count to view this? I recognise Orion by sight; so where do I look from there?


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## GuardianRanger (Jan 3, 2005)

*Re: Red Star?*

 
"the swamps of Jersey" that I reside in refer to New Jersey, in the U.S. (The swamps of Jersey coming from a line from Bruce Springsteen's song "Rosalita".)

Anyway, I think we are 5 hours behind you. At least, the time on the bottom of my screen here at TTF reads GMT - 5.

If you can find Orion by sight, wait until Orion is a little higher in the sky. Since you know Orion: Rigel is the star in the "foot" of the right leg. That's pretty bright. Betelgeuse is the star of his left shoulder. Sirius will be to the left of Betelgeuse, and below Orion all together. A good pointer is to follow the sword belt left. They "point" right at Sirius. It will be really bright, you won't be able to miss it. My star chart shows it rises (here) around 7:00 pm, but that would put it on the horizon. It takes a good two and half hours for it to be above tree tops. And just for reference, my star chart is for lattitudes 30 degrees to 50 degrees.

I've attached a mini picture as to where to find it.


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## GuardianRanger (Jan 3, 2005)

*Re: Red Star?*



Barliman Butterbur said:


> Pardon my abysmal lack when it comes to astronomy — but if a sun was red, wouldn't that mean it was a giant star ready to go out? Is Aldebaran like that? Are there visible stars that we can see that are so old that they actually glow red? (And let us not forget that Mars is a red planet, not a star). Please correct any misconceptions I may have!
> 
> Barley



Sorry Barliman, missed your post. You are correct in that Aldebaran is an old star, so old that it has used up all of it's hydrogen and is burning other fuels.

I've attached another image on how to find Aldebaran. It's just as easy. Follow the three stars of the belt of Orion, this time follow them right. They will point to Aldebaran. If you look just beyond Aldebaran in the same direction, you will see the Pleiades, or the Seven Sisters; an open star cluster.

An just a note here, I'm no scientist, just an amateur back yard astronomer.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Jan 3, 2005)

*Re: Red Star?*



GuardianRanger said:


> Sorry Barliman, missed your post. You are correct in that Aldebaran is an old star, so old that it has used up all of it's hydrogen and is burning other fuels...I'm no scientist, just an amateur back yard astronomer.



I wish I could say as much! I don't even have a telescope. Hell, I don't even have a back yard!

(But in the book, when the red star is referred to — could they mean the Middle-earth version of Mars rather than Aldeberan?)

Barley


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## GuardianRanger (Jan 3, 2005)

*Re: Red Star?*

(I have a backyard, _and_ a telescope, but; because of suburbia, I can't see as much as I'd like.)

Anyway, back to the topic at hand....

A while back, I remember surfing the internet trying to combine two of my favorite hobbies; The Lord of the Rings, and Astronomy. I remember I found a great site that was a talk on the astonomy of the Lord of the Rings, and gave good examples/proofs.

Well, I seemed to have lost the site. And when I try to google on "astronomy" and "lord of the rings" I received a ton of sites on Saturn. All of them used the predictable "The Real Lord Of The Rings" title. (Not that the pictures and data coming back from Saturn isn't awesome...they are beyond awesome.)

Anyway, after performing another exhaustive search, I think I found what I originally read. And it's a great read. With some cool pictures.

I believe the answer will settle all questions arising from this thread. And for what it's worth, the author is a professor of physics and astronomy.

So, without further ado, here it 
is.

I hope you all enjoy it! 
 

(For what it's worth, I would have *loved* to have worked on this project when I was in college. <sigh>)


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## Barliman Butterbur (Jan 4, 2005)

*Re: Red Star?*

Wahoo! I bookmarked it before it got away! Thanks!

Barley


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## Eledhwen (Jan 4, 2005)

*Re: Red Star?*



GuardianRanger said:


> Anyway, I think we are 5 hours behind you. At least, the time on the bottom of my screen here at TTF reads GMT - 5.
> My star chart shows it rises (here) around 7:00 pm, but that would put it on the horizon. It takes a good two and half hours for it to be above tree tops. And just for reference, my star chart is for lattitudes 30 degrees to 50 degrees.


Thanks. I think the time info, which works for the sun and moon, isn't right for the stars, as I could see Orion clearly over Windsor Castle at about 8pm two nights ago (the last time it was clear) whilst travelling home from London. Your directions to Sirius etc are very clear, and I'll look out for it on the next clear night.

As for Erestor's question about the red star, I don't think it's Sauron's star, visible from Rivendell, unless Frodo was seeing it by some keen-ness of sight like he experienced on Amon Hen. Gandalf had already noticed a change in him, and he saw more than the others in Moria. But if it was Sauron's eye, it was not just enhanced optical vision, as there were many mountain ranges in between.


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## Urambo Tauro (Jan 4, 2005)

*Re: Red Star?*

GuardianRanger, you can find pages from Saruman's book here.
You may be on to something there, Eledhwen. I had forgotten about Frodo's "enhanced senses" following the stab he received on Weathertop.
The more I think about it, the more the text leads me to think it's related to Sauron in some way.


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 23, 2005)

> _The Fellowship of the Ring; The Ring Goes South_
> So the days slipped away, as each morning dawned bright and fair, and each evening followed cool and clear. But autumn was waning fast; slowly the golden light faded to pale silver, and the lingering leaves fell from the naked trees. A wind began to blow chill from the Misty Mountains to the east. The Hunter's Moon waxed round in the night sky, and put to flight all the lesser stars. But low in the South one star shone red. Every night, as the Moon waned again, it shone brighter and brighter. Frodo could see it from his window, deep in the heavens burning like a watchful eye that glared above the trees on the brink of the valley.



I love this description and I've always taken the red star to be a symbol of Saruman, his and his servants' prying eyes trying to penetrate the veils and see what our friends are up to in Rivendell. Perhaps the red colour of it could even be associated with the bloodshed that Saruman would inflict upon the Rohirrim. 

Anyone else interpret it this way? 

As for the star itself, at a guess I think this may be Antares (brightest star in the Scorpio constellation) or even Mars (though it's not a star per se, but a planet), both of which are noticeably red.


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## Inderjit S (Apr 23, 2005)

I always thought it was a reference to Sauron-especially the "watchful eye" bit-it seemed Sauron-like to me.


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 23, 2005)

I agree the 'watchful eye' part is very much reminiscent of Sauron. Perhaps I was swayed to think of Saruman rather than Sauron because the star lay in the southern skies, in the direction of Isengard. Also, Sauron, or rather his servants the Nazgul, seem to have been beaten for a time, and there was no immediate threat from Sauron for a time, and the threat of Saruman the traitor was much more near at hand (the crebain?).


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## Inderjit S (Apr 23, 2005)

Perhaps, but maybe he was also looking for the ringbearer-who he knew would have been Imladris if the Nazgul had reached him (hence him looking north) or maybe he was looking for what happened to the Nazgul if they hadn't reached him. Sauron was not one to give up easily!


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## Urambo Tauro (Apr 23, 2005)

I was curious about this star, too. In the movie, Saruman's book mentions a "red star of Sauron"... http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/movie_otherinscr.htm#sarumans


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 23, 2005)

I merged an older thread on the subject to this new one. 

I think the idea that the red star could be Sauron's eye is extremely unlikely, not to say impossible. Why would Sauron's eye keep popping up 'every night'?

Also, Saruman's book is an invention of the film makers and is hardly a reliable source. It's interesting though.

And yes, Sirius is a bluish star that twinkles and changes colour somewhat, and is my personal favourite - what a beauty!

Here's some info on the star Antares, that I proposed earlier. Apparently it is a star of the summer skies (I had forgotten!), so it is unlikely that this is the red star of Middle-earth, unless not all the laws of physics and astronomy of our world apply in M-e.

GuardianRanger, it is wonderful to meet a fellow astronomy enthusiast


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## Helm (Apr 24, 2005)

I always the the star was Earendil. is that possible?


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## Greenwood (Apr 24, 2005)

Helm said:


> I always the the star was Earendil. is that possible?


I believe the star of Earendil is Venus.


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 24, 2005)

Greenwood said:


> I believe the star of Earendil is Venus.



Which shines with a bright white/yellowish light, not red.


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## Greenwood (Apr 24, 2005)

Ithrynluin said:


> Which shines with a bright white/yellowish light, not red.


Quite true. I always took the "star" Frodo refers to to be Mars. Not only is Mars noticeably red, but if memory serves, Mars is usually in the southern sky during its closest oppositions when it is brightest. (I could be wrong on this; it is a long time since I studied astronomy.)


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## Barliman Butterbur (Apr 25, 2005)

Greenwood said:


> Quite true. I always took the "star" Frodo refers to to be Mars. Not only is Mars noticeably red, but if memory serves, Mars is usually in the southern sky during its closest oppositions when it is brightest. (I could be wrong on this; it is a long time since I studied astronomy.)



Not only that, but Mars is the planet named for the god of war, which makes it a much more likely candidate to be the "parallel universe" version of the "red star" in Middle-earth. Then the star becomes a much more sinister omen of approaching horrors.

Barley


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## Walter (Apr 25, 2005)

There was once an article published in "Nólë i Meneldilo", 'Lore of the Astronomer', by Jorge Quiñonez and Ned Raggett in Vinyar Tengwar (#12 July 1990, and some discussion about it in the following issues) which may be - or maybe not - pertinent to this discussion...


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## GuardianRanger (Apr 26, 2005)

Ithrynluin said:


> GuardianRanger, it is wonderful to meet a fellow astronomy enthusiast



Yeah, it's great when some of your hobbies collide.

I must admit, I haven't been out with the scope yet this year.


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 26, 2005)

GuardianRanger said:


> I must admit, I haven't been out with the scope yet this year.



Nor have I. But the better weather's yet to come. Nothing beats a clear and fragrant spring or summer night.


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## Alcuin (Apr 26, 2005)

Mars hung large, low, red, and glaring in the sky all during the summer of 2001. Did anyone else notice this?


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 26, 2005)

Well, I don't exactly remember if it was the summer of 2001, but I do remember adoring the especially vivid appearance of Mars one summer. Quite a nice touch.


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## Sagan369 (Apr 15, 2006)

*The Ring Goes South*

Just before the Company sets out, Frodo does some star gazing:



> The Hunter's Moon wazed round in the night sky, and put to flight all the lesser stars. But low in the South one star shone red. Every night, as the Moon waned again, it shone brighter and brighter. Frodo could see it from his window, deep in the heavens, burning like a watchful eye that glared above the trees on the brink of the valley.


Any guesses as to what he was looking at? Is it Antares? I dont think it could be Mars cause that never is seen low in the southern sky.


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## GuardianRanger (Apr 16, 2006)

*Re: The Ring Goes South*



Sagan369 said:


> Just before the Company sets out, Frodo does some star gazing:
> 
> Any guesses as to what he was looking at? Is it Antares? I dont think it could be Mars cause that never is seen low in the southern sky.



Take a look at the whole first page of this thread. There are a couple of external links that give some good theorys to the astronomy in the Lord Of The Rings.
I think your question is similar to the one that started this thread.


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## Urambo Tauro (Oct 6, 2006)

The mysterious star could be Fomalhaut!


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## GuardianRanger (Oct 31, 2006)

I've seen that picture.
Good stuff.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Aug 30, 2014)

*Re: Red Star?*



Barliman Butterbur said:


> Pardon my abysmal lack when it comes to astronomy ? but if a sun was red, wouldn't that mean it was a giant star ready to go out? Is Aldebaran like that? Are there visible stars that we can see that are so old that they actually glow red? (And let us not forget that Mars is a red planet, not a star). Please correct any misconceptions I may have!
> 
> Barley




That and sometimes the Earth's atmosphere can bend the light to make stars look odd/different. This is what causes those twinkling stars so maybe it can cause some stars to appear red too?


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## Otyugh (Feb 27, 2016)

This is a longshot. Decades ago I read this bit as Frodo the ring-bearer seeing some representation of the Eye of Sauron. But I gradually came to doubt this view. First of all, Barad-Dur is solidly southeast of Rivendell, not south, and Tolkien is, well, extremely careful. Secondly, Stars are a big deal. Sauron is powerful yes, but is he powerful enough to represent as a star?

Outside of historical discussions by someone like Elrond, I think this is the one and only actualinteraction in the trilogy with Morgoth, looking in from his place of banishment. It ties Frodo to that huge story arc that starts with Melkor's fall from grace. I would be very Tolkienish and minimalistic to make one obscure reference to something at the god-level. Sauron is Melkor's emissary; it makes sense Morgoth would be keeping tabs on things.


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## CirdanLinweilin (May 17, 2016)

The fact there is not much said about this star...

Says quite a lot.

I agree that it could be Morgoth. In my opinion that fact we get this little mention of this star then nothing...

Sounds like some distant evil is revealing its watchful eye...waiting...waiting...waiting...to come again...watching, waiting, seeing the world after its evil struck. 

I wonder what old Melkie's opinion of Sauron and Frodo and everything. (That's a book in and of itself!)


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## Alcuin (May 17, 2016)

If you’re in the Northern hemisphere, you can go out tonight and see Mars, Saturn, and Antares in a clear triangle in the evening. Both Mars and Antares are noticeably red. 






Mars was in opposition on Dec 5, 1943, making it clearly visible from Earth. (It is in opposition now, too.) Tolkien was in the early stages of writing Lord of the Rings at that time; he used 1941-42 as the basis for his calendar (see _Reader’s Companion_, pp xlv-l.); but perhaps he was so taken by the appearance of Mars the following year that he inserted it. 

Kristine Larkin at Central Connecticut State University has written an article on stars in Tolkien and other fantasy works. You can find a copy here, along with a great number of links to other authors. 

Morgoth was bound and cast out of Arda at the end of the First Age by Tulkas and the Host of the Valar led by Eönwë at the end of the War of Wrath; his feet were cut off when he was taken captive. (_Silmarillion_) In _Letters of JRR Tolkien_ #183 to fellow author W.H. Auden (who admired _Lord of the Rings_) Tolkien wrote in a footnote that , “By the end of the Third Age … [Sauron] claimed to be Morgoth returned.”


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## CirdanLinweilin (May 17, 2016)

Ah, well. 

Thanks for the info Alcuin!


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## PaigeSinclaire88 (Dec 26, 2016)

Barliman Butterbur said:


> *Re: Red Star?*
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That's how I've always interpreted it. Bare in mind Middle Earth is still a planet and although it isnt sci-fi like star wars it's still an earth.


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## Otyugh (Jan 17, 2020)

This information on the state of the Stars and Mars back when Tolkien was writing LOTR is cool. But, none of that addresses

why Tolkien characterized it as "a watchful eye that glared,"
why it was Frodo who saw it every night,
why it was in the book at all,
why it was never mentioned again.

Once you accept that this was not some random red star, the next hint is the characterization of the star. If we can agree that it has a decidedly negative tone, we're now gazing at some distant evil. Once you get to that, there's only two decent choices, Sauron, and Morgoth. I can make good arguments for either; I'm saying that Morgoth answers question #4 slightly better than Sauron does. Morgoth was put out into the Timeless Void, but that does not keep him from looking in: _About the World are the Ilurambar, or Walls of the World. They are as ice and glass and steel, being above all the imagination of the Children of Earth cold, transparent, and hard. _


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## Aldarion (Jan 17, 2020)

Otyugh said:


> This information on the state of the Stars and Mars back when Tolkien was writing LOTR is cool. But, none of that addresses
> 
> why Tolkien characterized it as "a watchful eye that glared,"
> why it was Frodo who saw it every night,
> ...



Not necessarily. Even with all that, the star can be either:
a) some distant evil
or
b) a representation of some distant evil

If it is a), then it may indeed be either Sauron or Morgoth. If it is b), then the star could be just a planet - and most likely choice is Mars, as it is a) red, and b) represents war. I am currently inclined towards Mars, God of War explanation because of: “A red sun rises. Blood has been spilled this night.”. So sky symbolism is definitely not unknown.


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## Otyugh (Jan 17, 2020)

That's fair. 

I think what pulled me strongly away from symbolism, so much so that until you brought it up it didn't even occur to me, was just how personal "a watchful eye that glared" feels. To me it has a different feel than, say, Legolas or Aragorn reading portents that war is coming. A red sky, a comet falling, those are neutral. Watching and glaring strongly imply someone doing the watching and glaring.


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## Aldarion (Jan 18, 2020)

Indeed. And that is why I am still "on the fence" about it. One day I'll favour "symbol", another day "persona" explanation.


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## Halasían (Feb 5, 2020)

Sagan369 said:


> *The Ring Goes South*
> 
> _The Hunter's Moon wazed round in the night sky, and put to flight all the lesser stars. But low in the South one star shone red. Every night, as the Moon waned again, it shone brighter and brighter. Frodo could see it from his window, deep in the heavens, burning like a watchful eye that glared above the trees on the brink of the valley._




I'm just going to throw this out there... it seems it's the _colour_ of this star that brings into question as to whether it's evil or an evil sign or not. I always seen it from my very first reading that it was a sign from Elentari Varda, Lady of the Stars (of which much praying to seems to happen among the elves) of a watchful eye over the fellowship as they worked their way south. The 'redness' I later considered to be the atmospheric pollution from Mt Doom and was an attempt by Sauron to try and 'corrupt' this sign in the eyes of men and elves and diminish hope.

This is just my interpretation based on my reading of the book. Unfortunately PJ has corrupted it into being 'the eye of Sauron' based on Sarumann's writings in the movie.


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