# Valar



## Kahmûl (Feb 19, 2003)

I was just wondering how many valar there were?


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## FoolOfATook (Feb 19, 2003)

14:
Manwe
Ulmo
Aule
Orome
Mandos
Lorien
Tulkas 
Varda
Yavanna
Nienna
Este
Vaire
Vana
Nessa

It would be 15, counting Melkor, but:
"Melkor is counted no longer among the Valar, and his name is not spoken on Earth."
-From the _ Valaquenta_


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## Mirabella (Feb 19, 2003)

Depends on whether or not you consider Morgoth a Vala. Fourteen if you don't count Morgoth, and they are:

Manwe, Ulmo, Aule, Osse, Mandos, Lorien, Tulkas, Varda, Yavanna, Nessa, Nienna, Este, Vaire, and Vana.

Edit: arrrrrrrghhhhhhh!! FoolOfaTook beat me to it!


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## Manwë Súlimo (Feb 19, 2003)

There are 14, 7 male and 7 female.

Aulë (Mahal)
Manwë Súlimo
Melkor (Morgoth Bauglir, Belegûr, Belegurth)
Namo (Mandos)
Irmo (Lórien)
Oromë Aldaron (Araw, Béma, Tauron)
Tulkas Astaldo
Ulmo

Estë
Nessa
Nienna
Vairë
Vána
Varda Elentári (Elbereth Gilthoniel, Tintallë)
Yavanna Kementári


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## Celebthôl (Feb 19, 2003)

there were more, they just didnt enter arda so the total number isn't known...


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## Confusticated (Feb 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Celebthôl _
> *there were more, they just didnt enter arda so the total number isn't known... *


I think you are confusing Valar with Ainur. The Valar are Ainur but not all of the Ainur became Valar. We know that some Ainur became Maiar and others did not enter Arda.


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## Celebthôl (Feb 20, 2003)

oooh i see, so they became Valar when they entered Arda but when they were outside of it they were called Ainur AHA it all comes out...


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## Gil-Galad (Feb 20, 2003)

.....but why they are called Ainur when they are outside Arda and Valar when they are inside.I mean what changes with them when they enter Arda


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 20, 2003)

They become bound to Arda when they enter it, and must abide therein until the end of the world.


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## Gil-Galad (Feb 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *They become bound to Arda when they enter it, and must abide therein until the end of the world. *


Yes I know that.But is it the only reason for calling them Valar,not Ainur?


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 20, 2003)

Valar means "Powers (of the World). Why would they be called by such a name if they remained in the Timeless Halls of Eru. 
Manwë was king of Arda (=the World) and the Valar collectively were the keepers of this world.


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## Mirabella (Feb 20, 2003)

The literal translation of Valar is "The Powers" it is a name that they either took for themselves when they came to Arda to dwell or was given to them by the Elves, I don't remember which.

It's not that they changed--well, except for that being bound to the world thing-- it's just a name that signifies what they are: The Powers of Arda.


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## Brent (Feb 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mirabella _
> *The literal translation of Valar is "The Powers" it is a name that they either took for themselves when they came to Arda to dwell or was given to them by the Elves, I don't remember which.
> 
> It's not that they changed--well, except for that being bound to the world thing-- it's just a name that signifies what they are: The Powers of Arda. *



My understanding is that this post is correct. Nothing changes "Valar" is a name given to them (by the Elves I think). In nature they are Ainur. Of the "social structure" of the Ainur nothing is recorded.


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## Brent (Feb 21, 2003)

I should add that I'm referring to them hanging out with the one before it all started as far as I'm aware they are just the Ainur.


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## Kahmûl (Feb 27, 2003)

OK Thanks


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## Celebithil (Mar 8, 2003)

Being 7 pairs of a male and a female was there a female valar who was most like Melkor?


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## redline2200 (Mar 8, 2003)

No, there was no female equivalent to Melkor as far as Valar are concerned. He was the only one of the Valar that turned evil and went against the will of Eru. There were Maiar that turned evil, but as far as Valier, there is none that followed Melkor. I think Melkor was too self-willed to have a counter-part that is as powerful as he is.


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## Celebithil (Mar 9, 2003)

Was there one that would have been matched to him had he not turned evil?


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