# Tom Bombadil



## Warrior (Jan 18, 2004)

*I'd still like to know*

 When Tom Bombadil put the Ring on his finger and he did not disappear. The Hobbits noticed this and Frodo asked: 'What are you, Master?'

Tom Bombadil answered; "....Eldest, that's what I am. Mark my words my friends: Tom was here before the river and the trees: Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving....When the Elves passed westward, Tom was already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.

What I'm asking is since Tom was here before the Dark Lord, is that why the Ring didn't effect him the way it did Frodo, the disappearing? He is strong in heart so it would have restisted its call, don't you think?

Is Tom Bombadil's Forest enchanted, is that why he wouldn't leave it? Because on page 144, after he led them to the edge of the Forest, they begged him to come at least as far as the inn and drink once more with them; but he laughed and said: _Tom's country ends here: he will not pass the borders. Tom has his house to mind, and Goldberry is waiting!'_ And if this is so, when the Dark Lord had covered the Middle-Earth in darkness thousands of years ago, it wouldn't have affected Tom Bombadil or his Forest? What's the deal with Goldberry?


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## Starbrow (Jan 18, 2004)

I'm sure other people will be happy to point you to the numerous threads about our favorite enigma, Tom Bombadil. But I wanted to comment about the Dark Lord. Bombadil is referring to Morgoth, so Tom was not in existance before him. Tom was alive in Middle Earth before Morgoth returned after his imprisonment outside of Arda, bringing evil into it after his taking of the Silmarils.


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## Warrior (Jan 23, 2004)

*I'd still like to know*



> Originally posted by *Starbrow*
> I'm sure other people will be happy to point you to the numerous threads about our favorite enigma, Tom Bombadil. But I wanted to comment about the Dark Lord. Bombadil is referring to Morgoth, so Tom was not in existance before him. Tom was alive in Middle Earth before Morgoth returned after his imprisonment outside of Arda, bringing evil into it after his taking of the Silmarils.



Ohhhh, okay. Thank you for clearing that up for me.  

Okay, now I understand that, *but* what I don't understand is when Tom Bombadil put one the Ring, why didn't he disappear? And how was he able to see Frodo, even after he disappeared?


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## Bucky (Jan 23, 2004)

_But I wanted to comment about the Dark Lord. Bombadil is referring to Morgoth, so Tom was not in existance before him. Tom was alive in Middle Earth before Morgoth returned after his imprisonment outside of Arda, bringing evil into it after his taking of the Silmarils. _

No. Tom is referring to a time long, long ago far, far before then.

See: "Tom was here before the river and the trees: Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn."

That was before Morgoth destroyed The Two Trees & stole The Silmarils.....

It was a time befoe Arda was fully shaped & Morgoth came in & made war on the Valar for the _first_ time.

And, for the record, when Morgoth was imprisioned before stealing the Silmarils, it was in The Halls Of Mandos, not outside Arda.


As far as Tom putting boundaries on that tiny land, Gandalf says they are self imposed at the Council of Elrond.


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## Warrior (Jan 25, 2004)

> Originally quoted by *Starbrow*
> But I wanted to comment about the Dark Lord. Bombadil is referring to Morgoth, so Tom was not in existance before him. Tom was alive in Middle Earth before Morgoth returned after his imprisonment outside of Arda, bringing evil into it after his taking of the Silmarils.





> Originally quoted by *Bucky*
> No. Tom is referring to a time long, long ago far, far before then.
> See: "Tom was here before the river and the trees: Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn."
> That was before Morgoth destroyed The Two Trees & stole The Silmarils.....
> ...



Okay, now we *really know*, and thank you Bucky for that.

But, I still don't understand: when Tom Bombadil put one the Ring, why didn't he disappear? And how was he able to see Frodo, even after he disappeared? 



> Originally quoted by *Bucky *
> As far as Tom putting boundaries on that tiny land, Gandalf says they are self imposed at the Council of Elrond



Confussed: Why??? Why would Tom Bombidal do that????


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## Arvedui (Jan 26, 2004)

Tom Bombadil is/was according to Tolkien:


> the spirit of the (vanishing) Oxford and Berkshire countryside.


 So I guess you could say that the borders he set is a symbol of that exact place in England. Or more exactly: what that countryside was up to the 1920's.


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## Warrior (Jan 29, 2004)

Okay, but why didn't the _Ring _ affect him?


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## Bucky (Jan 29, 2004)

As for the Ring not effecting Tom & Tom being able to see Frodo with it on, that's part of the Tom Bombadil Enigma.

One plausible thought on Tom seeing Frodo is that like the High Elves & Maiar & Valar, Tom exists & "both worlds at once", the "Seen & the Unseen" as Gandalf tells Frodo in Rivendell. But, Tom existing in both worlds at once comes no closer to explaining _who he is and why_ he does.


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## Lantarion (Jan 30, 2004)

Here I'd like to quote myself, from another similar thread.


Me said:


> What I think that some people want to know is what Tom actually is in terms of categorization within Eä, or Arda rather.
> To which I can only add a theory I have expressed before: that Tom Bombadil is some higher form of Ainu, not only sent forth into Arda before anything else but actually Sung into it and set as a part of Arda's very texture. In the end I believe that the Valar, or all the Ainur who had part in the Ainulindalë, perceived or envisioned some inherent being or soul that was to inhabit, or rather be Arda itself; its nature, its beauty, its very essense. As I see it, the Ainur sung him in, and the potency of his spirit (far more than that of a Vala, IMO) caused him to Be. That would be one theory for Goldberry's cryptic answer, "He is".


As for the Ring not affecting him; how could it? If Tom is to be seen as an embodiment of the very nature of Arda and everything entailed therein (e.g. the Eruhíni), that would include emotions and powers and physical attributes. If Tom embodies all of these, then the Ring would logically have no effect over him because he already is unlimitedly potent a spirit himself. The purpose of the One Ring was to enhance the powers of a Maia, as I have argued elsewhere. But if Tom is already far beyond the scope that the Ring could provide in terms of 'power', why would it have any effect on him?


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## Helcaraxë (Jan 30, 2004)

I think that Bombadil's immunity to the ring had nothing to do with his power. The ring builds upon desires already present in the wearer. Tom had no desire to be master of anything, so the ring had nothing to start with.

~Helcaraxë


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## Helcaraxë (Jan 30, 2004)

Lantarion said:


> Here I'd like to quote myself, from another similar thread.
> 
> As for the Ring not affecting him; how could it? If Tom is to be seen as an embodiment of the very nature of Arda and everything entailed therein (e.g. the Eruhíni), that would include emotions and powers and physical attributes. If Tom embodies all of these, then the Ring would logically have no effect over him because he already is unlimitedly potent a spirit himself. The purpose of the One Ring was to enhance the powers of a Maia, as I have argued elsewhere. But if Tom is already far beyond the scope that the Ring could provide in terms of 'power', why would it have any effect on him?



I think you give TB too much credit. I remember Elrond saying that if Sauron recovered the ring, TB would eventually fall. Or was it Gandalf? But he is certainly not "unlimitedly potent." He has no power outside his domain.


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## Khazad (Feb 2, 2004)

Helcaraxë said:


> I think that Bombadil's immunity to the ring had nothing to do with his power. The ring builds upon desires already present in the wearer. Tom had no desire to be master of anything, so the ring had nothing to start with.
> 
> ~Helcaraxë




My my, we belong to the same camp  Just what I think and wrote else where.

I just dislike that earth spirit concept about Tom. For me to think he is a maia feels much more normal, and what I quote here could stand as a backing theory for me.


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## Arvedui (Feb 2, 2004)

What you are basically saying, is that you prefer your own thoughts of Tom Bombadil, over that of Tolkien?
That doesn't make much sense too me.

But being an earth-spirit (or rather a nature-spirit) does fit in nicely with all the things said about Tom:
- The Ring has no power over him, as it has no power over nature itself.
- If Sauron gets his Ring back, then nature (T.B.) will also "fall." Sauron with the One Ring will be so powefull that he will be able to conquer all that he wants, and when you take a look at nature in Mordor and surrounding areas, you get a pretty good idea as to what will happen elsewhere with nature.
- Nature has no power outside nature.

Make an experiment: replace Tom Bombadil with Nature (Oxford and Berkshire countryside, if you want to be specific), and see what you get.


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## Helcaraxë (Feb 7, 2004)

I agree with all that you said, Arv. But I still think that the Ring's lack of power had nothing to do with TB's own abilities. It did have power over nature, as it could conquer it.

~Helcaraxë


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