# Was Gandalf a Valar?



## 1stvermont (Jan 27, 2019)

I believe a mistake was made by Christopher Tolkien. I always thought Gandalf a maiar from reading the sillmarillion as Olorin was a Maiar. However, of course , our sillmarillion was not published by J.R.R Tolkien but Christopher and I believe Tolkien left us with the idea of two separate olorins in Valinor. And after reading unfinished Tales [Post LOTR writing/essays on the istari] I think J.R.R left the question open but also indicated Gandalf was valar I think his power justified that position as well.


“_They [Valar] sent members of their own high order [the istari], but clad in bodies as of men.”
-Unfinished Tales the Istari_


This above passage of could perhaps be understood as a maiar as the same order as valar but it seems to go against the text. That in fact is how Christopher understood it to mean valar. Christopher noticed this “mistake” of Gandalf being a valar. Yet it came from later Tolkien writings [post lotr] and Christopher's counter and proof it was a “mistake” was his version of the published sillmarillion. Than we have this text making a better case


“Who was "Gandalf"? _it is said in the latter days it was believed by many of the “faithful” that Gandalf was the last appearance of Manwe himself...I do not know the truth of the matter, and if i did it would be a mistake to be more explicit than gandalf was”
-Unfinished tales the Istari _

So Tolkien did not outright say Gandalf was Manwe [a valar] nor deny it. The argument that Gandalf was a maiar comes from his identification as Olorin. However even here does not prove him a maiar.


“_That Gandalf said that his name “in the west” had been Olorin was, according to this belief, the adoption of an Incognito, a mere by name. I do not [of course] know the truth of the matter.” -Unfinished tales _



Thus I think Tolkien left it open to what order Gandalf was but I think indicated he was a valar.


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## Elthir (Jan 28, 2019)

Late in life, Tolkien imagined that the rebodied Glorfindel became a friend of Olorin in Valinor.

"At some time, probably early in his sojourn in Valinor, he became a follower, and a friend, of Olorin (Gandalf), who as is said in the Silmarillion had an especial love and concern for the Children of Eru. That Olorin, as was possible for one of the Maiar, had already visited Middle-earth . . ." JRRT, _Last Writings_, Glorfindel II, The Peoples of Middle-Earth

This appears to be a First Age Olorin (who is Gandalf) who is a Maia, with a similar reference to him being "the friend of all the Children of Iluvatar" from _Valaquenta_. And in Glorfindel I,
for example, the word _Maiar_ is footnoted by Tolkien: "That angelic order to which Gandalf originally belonged: lesser in power and authority than the Valar, but of the same nature . . ."

In the same text (I) Gandalf is referred to as Gandalf-Olorin.


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## Elaini (Jan 28, 2019)

Gandalf was originally based on Odin, an old wanderer which is in fact not a small god in Norse mythology.

But the names of the seven Valar and seven Valier are clearly listed. When Manwë sent Gandalf to Middle-Earth, Gandalf thought himself as weak, even scared about the task though according to Manwë it was the exact reason why he was sent. Because he wasn't arrogant and proud about his abilities.

Also, could "their own high order" mean Ainur instead of the Valar?


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## 1stvermont (Jan 28, 2019)

Galin said:


> Late in life, Tolkien imagined that the rebodied Glorfindel became a friend of Olorin in Valinor.
> 
> "At some time, probably early in his sojourn in Valinor, he became a follower, and a friend, of Olorin *(Gandalf)*, who as is said in the Silmarillion had an especial love and concern for the Children of Eru. That Olorin, as was *possible for one of the Maiar*, *had already visited Middle-earth* . . ." JRRT, _Last Writings_, Glorfindel II, The Peoples of Middle-Earth
> 
> ...




I will have to order and read the peoples of ME as i have not yet done so. Looking at your first text it seems [Gandalf] is added in or was this part of the original text written by J.R.R Tolkien? what is the date on this source? Plus i am saying their very well might have been *two* Olorins, or that Gandalf just took the name of olorin for temporary purposes. Plus the text says "*was possibly*" a maiar. I think Tolkien left that option as he did a valar.


Gandalf did not enter ME until the third age. 

“They [Istari] belonged solely to the third age and than departed, and none save maybe Elrond, Cirdan, and Galadriel discovered of what kind they were or whence they came.” 
-UT the Istari 





Elaini said:


> Gandalf was originally based on Odin, an old wanderer which is in fact not a small god in Norse mythology.
> 
> But the names of the seven Valar and seven Valier are clearly listed. When Manwë sent Gandalf to Middle-Earth, Gandalf thought himself as weak, even scared about the task though according to Manwë it was the exact reason why he was sent. Because he wasn't arrogant and proud about his abilities.
> 
> Also, could "their own high order" mean Ainur instead of the Valar?




Where are they listed? where does it say no other valar? why cant Gandalf be a named valar who took on Olorin for incognito purposes as states by Tolkien? 


Yes Gandalf thought Sauron powerful, because he was. Not all Valar were "fighting" valar. But even so, compare Sauron to the most powerful valar, Morgoth next post.

*Sauron vs Morgoth*

I will argue that Sauron was the most powerful force for darkness in all of Middle-earth. And that his power was greater than Melkor's for much of history and he accomplished more than did morgoth. At creation of course melkor was the most powerful being created by Eru as the most powerful of the valar. However as I argue elsewhere the valar are not as powerful as often believed. Further the differences from valar to maiar I believe are not as great as often thought

“_And the Valar drew unto them many companions, some less, some well nigh as great as themselves, and they laboured together in the ordering of the Earth and the curbing of its tumults.”
*-*The Sillmarillion Ainulindale_

So maiar and valar are of the same race as elves are with men and elves like Thingol, married maiar like melian. The chief among the maiar in valinor was a Maiar Eonwe, the banner bearer and herald of Manwe, “whose might in arms is surpassed by none in arda.” Neither is the valar's “power” a power of strength- but a power in creation to accomplish Eru's design for them. In Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth Tolkien says of the valar “They had sufficient power for their functions.” Much of their power has to do with the potential for creation. Morgoth fled often from Tulkas even though he was the most powerful of the valar. As a poster stated

“_Tolkien did not really think in terms of video game–style levels of power. Power to him was an intangible thing that can take many forms, and is not the same as raw strength or destructive ability. Tulkas, one of the Valar, is the strongest and the best at fighting; but he's certainly not the most powerful among them, and he readily accepts Manwë's leadership...Likewise, Morgoth at his height was the most powerful nondivine entity in Arda; but even he was defeated in a fight by Ungoliant, who could only do one thing (engulf and consume things in darkness), but could do it really, really well.To Tolkien, the power to resist, the power to stay true to your goals, the power to inspire other people to follow you, were all equally or more important than the power to win battles or use “magic” to change the world..”_

Melkor poured much of his strength into the creation of arda [before his fall] reducing his power. Also he used much of his strength corrupting the matter itself of arda and pouring his malice into orcs and other creatures. Melkor was envious of Feanor because of his great crafting abilities. Ungoliant the giant spider was able to match Morgoth in battle and he had to be saved by his servants the balrogs [his power was not yet reduced by giving it to other creatures yet, see Annuls of Ammon Morgoths Ring] .

“_Ungoliante....drank and swelled to a shape so vast and hideous that even Melkor was adread...morgoth could not master her and she emeshed strangling webs, and his dreadful cry echoed throughout the world.”
- Morgoths Ring aam_

He later lost the silmarill to Beren and Luthian. He was besieged by the Noldor for 400 years. When the high elf king Fingolfin challenged melkor to a 1v1 fight. Morgoth feared Fingolfin and did not want the fight but had to accept given the horn blasts of Fingolfin being so loud that all his servants would know of his fear. In the 1v1 dual the elvin king wounded melkor eight times including one on his foot that bled and caused morgoth to forever limp. Morgoth gave a cry of anguish and his nearby chieftains “fell on there faces in dismay.”It was not until “the king grew weary” [having traveled a long distance to challenge melkor] that Morgoth was than able to kill him. Following the fight Thorondor king of the eagles, marred Morgoths face and stole the body of the king from him. Morgoth limped on one foot and never fully recovered from his wounds. 

_[Morgoth was]“Severely wounded by fingolfin and Thoronder in 455 and lost a silmarill to Beren and Luthian in 467”
-Robert Foster Tolkien's World from A to Z: The Complete Guide to Middle-Earth_

Further it is prophesied in the second prophecy of mandos, Morgoth is to be killed by a man, Turin.



*Sauron*

_"Sauron, greatest and most terrible of the servants of Morgoth, who in the Sindarin tongue was named Gorthaur".
-The Silmarillion, Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin._


“_He became the greatest and most trusted of the servants of the Enemy, and the most perilous.”
-The Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
_

Sauron was the greatest of Morgoth's Servants so much so that melkor left Sauron in charge of the war with the noldor when he left and Angband was controlled by Sauron and was the rallying point for the servants of Melkor after his capture.

“_Melkor had made also a fortress [after called Angband]...this was in the command of Sauron.”
-The Later Sillmarillion the war of the Jewels_

In the Grey Annuls we read that Sauron often led the successful assaults of morgoths armies in the first age such as on Inglor, Minias-tirith, Dorthonion etc. He also found Barahir and his outlaws when Morgoth could not “Thither, Barahir and his outlaws withdrew....and Morgoth could not discover it. Therefore he commanded Sauron to find and destroy the rebels speedily.” and Sauron did. Sauron had accumulated vast knowledge from Melkor and other valar. ButSauron had not fallen so low as Morgoth. In myths transformed Tolkien said “He was not obliged to expand so much of himself” compared to Melkor. Sauron only spent his power on the rings while melkor poured his power into corruption middle earth and its creatures. This enabled Sauron to “pick up” where melkor left off and build upon his power and efforts. 

“_It was this Morgoth element in matter indeed witch was a prerequisite for such “magic” and other evils as Sauron practiced with it and upon it.”
-Myths Transformed_

Also in myths transformed we read “Sauron was also wiser than melkor.” and “It was Sauron also, who secretly repaired Angband. And there the dark places underground were already manned with hosts of orcs.” and again “It was Sauron who, during the ages of melkor's captivity in Aman, brought into being the black armies that were available to his master when he returned.” Sauron not melkor had the idea of breeding orcs for infantry, melkor did so to make fun of men/elves out of hate. Further “Sauron achieved even greater control over his orcs than Morgoth had done.” It was also Sauron who worked to create trolls from a dumb useless beast.

“_In their beginning... the eldar days, these were creatures of dull and lampish nature and had no more language than beasts. But Sauron had made use of them, teaching them, what they could learn, and increasing their wits and wildness.”
-J.R.R Tolkien Myths Transformed_

_Sauron was “more capable of calculation than melkor he was able to achieve things, first conceived by Melkor, which his master did not or could not complete in the furious haste of his malice.”
-Myths Transformed_

Sauron invented the black speech and had more success than Morgoth in middle earth. Sauron was able to avoid capture by the valar and continued the work of his master into the fourth age. He has his way with the Eldar, sacking Eregion of the Noldor, holding at bay Elrond, and advancing toward the Grey Havens.For long peridos of time

“_Sauron was become now a sorcerer of dreadful power, master of shadows and of phantoms, foul in wisdom, cruel in strength, misshaping what he touched, twisting what he ruled, Lord of werewolves, his dominion was torment.”
-The Sillmarillion_

“_Sauron became almost supreme in middle-earth.... he ruled a growing empire from the great dark tower of barad-dur in Mordor.... wielding the one ring.””
-Letters 131_

“_The strength of his terror and mastery over men had grown exceedingly great.”
-Akallabeth The Sillmarillion_

“_Sauron's growth to a new Dark Lord, master and god of Men.”
-Letters 131_


Later he single handle took out the mightiest nation of men that ever lived, the Númenóreans. He than was abel to turn them against the valar and forced Eru to remake the world. In letters 130 Tolkien said of the attack on valinor “The Numen-oreans directed by Sauron could have wrought ruin in Valinor itself.” Sauron slayed the last high king of the Noldor Gilgalad, as well as Elendil. Nowhere did morgoth have this kind of success. He had to flee valinor after sneaking in while Eru had to change the world to stop Sauron. Further during the second age Sauron owned massive amounts of middle earth.

“_Sauron was greater, effectively, in the Second Age, than Morgoth at the end of the First.”
-Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed_


He became more powerful in the third age with the creation of the one ring.

“_while he wore it his power was enhanced”
J.R.R Tolkien letters 130_


He deceived the 9 who turned into theThe nazgul, it is said in _of the rings of power and the third age_ were “the mightiest of Saurons servants” and of course the strongest of them all the witch king himself and their use of fell beats in the third age. He recived some of the dwarves rings as well. He Corrupted Suaroman, created Grond to break down the walls of minas tirith and reunited the orcs to make war on the free peoples while reestablishing Mordor as the great power in middle earth. Sauron controlled an empire far larger than Morgoth was ever able to control.



Elaini said:


> Also, could "their own high order" mean Ainur instead of the Valar?




Could be, that is not how UT tales seemed to me and Christopher also took it as a "mistake" for calling gandalf a valar.


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## Elthir (Jan 28, 2019)

1stvermont said:


> I will have to order and read the peoples of ME as i have not yet done so. Looking at your first text it seems [Gandalf] is added in or was this part of the original text written by J.R.R Tolkien?




As far as I know it's part of the original text. There are other instances of _parentheses_ that are very arguably Tolkien. In other words, I can see no reason for CJRT to add the information in them. Also, CJRT uses brackets to note a revision to something.



> what is the date on this source?



Very late._ Last Writings_ is aptly named here. CJRT thinks it probable that this collection of texts dates to the last year of his father's life.



> Plus i am saying their very well might have been *two* Olorins, or that Gandalf just took the name of olorin for temporary purposes.



I realize that, but this Olorin (in a First Age setting) is simply identified as Gandalf and as one of the Maiar.



> Plus the text says "*was possibly*" a maiar. I think Tolkien left that option as he did a valar.



I can't agree there. To me, the text says it was possible for one of the Maiar _to visit Middle-earth_.



Also, in Glorfindel I (_Last Writings_ again), for example, the word _Maiar_ is footnoted by Tolkien: "That angelic order to which Gandalf originally belonged: lesser in power and authority than the Valar, but of the same nature . . ."

In the same text (Glorfindel I) Gandalf is referred to as Gandalf-Olorin.


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## 1stvermont (Jan 28, 2019)

Galin said:


> As far as I know it's part of the original text. There are other instances of _parentheses_ that are very arguably Tolkien. In other words, I can see no reason for CJRT to add the information in them. Also, CJRT uses brackets to note a revision to something.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thanks i will have to read it before further comments of course. I do want to mention Gandalf did not enter ME till the third age.


“_They [Istari] belonged solely to the third age and than departed, and none save maybe Elrond, Cirdan, and Galadriel discovered of what kind they were or whence they came.” 
-UT the Istari _

*Middle Earth Conspiracy Theory Gandalf was Manwe *


I still need to read The Peoples of Middle-Earth before i make a conclusion. But i thought of a conspiracy theory. What if Gandalf was indeed Manwe. Manwe asked olorin to go and olorin was scarred and Manwe said it was the more reason he *should *go. But either Olorin refused or because he was scarred, Manwe stepped in and became Gandalf but because he wished not to reveal who he was [most well known and powerful valar besides morgoth and the purpose was to help the free people not fight for them as they would wish if they knew it was he] he used the incognito name of olorin since he was his desired servant.




“Who was "Gandalf"? _it is said in the latter days it was believed by many of the “faithful” that Gandalf was the last appearance of Manwe himself...I do not know the truth of the matter, and if i did it would be a mistake to be more explicit than gandalf was”
-Unfinished tales the Istari _


“_That Gandalf said that his name “in the west” had been Olorin was, according to this belief, the adoption of an Incognito, a mere by name. I do not [of course] know the truth of the matter.” 
-Unfinished tales _


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## Miguel (Jan 28, 2019)

I definitely love this theory, it's conflicting however, since this is already very settled in my mind:



> Wisest of the Maiar was Olórin. He too dwelt in Lórien, but his ways took him often to the house of Nienna, and of her he learned pity and patience.
> 
> Of Melian much is told in the _Quenta Silmarillion_. But of Olórin that tale does not speak; for though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen (in Valinor), or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts. In later days he was the friend of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and took pity on their sorrows; and those who listened to him awoke from despair and put away the imaginations of darkness.



But even then, it still might be, who knows.


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## 1stvermont (Jan 28, 2019)

Miguel said:


> I definitely love this theory, it's conflicting however, since this is already very settled in my mind:
> 
> 
> 
> But even then, it still might be, who knows.




I am actually looking into something but it will take some time that might make a better case for him as a valar. In fact all the istari as valar. But I think it might be wrong about two olorins. But even still that would not disprove him manwe or a valar. I am leaning towards gandalf as manwe more if he is a valar. I am looking into another writing on the matter that might shed some new light.


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## Miguel (Jan 28, 2019)

1stvermont said:


> I am actually looking into something but it will take some time that might make a better case for him as a valar. In fact all the istari as valar. But I think it might be wrong about two olorins. But even still that would not disprove him manwe or a valar. I am leaning towards gandalf as manwe more if he is a valar. I am looking into another writing on the matter that might shed some new light.



What i really like about this is the idea of Manwë wanting to be more involved in the matters of Middle-Earth without no one knowing. One of the reasons for this might be a tremendous feeling of guilt if you know what i mean.


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## Elthir (Jan 28, 2019)

1stvermont said:


> Thanks i will have to read it before further comments of course. I do want to mention Gandalf did not enter ME till the third age.



Agreed, but what Tolkien is noting here, in any case, is that Olorin could visit Middle-earth well before that, as was possible for a Maia (singular form).


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## Elaini (Jan 30, 2019)

Galin said:


> Agreed, but what Tolkien is noting here, in any case, is that Olorin could visit Middle-earth well before that, as was possible for a Maia (singular form).


Point proven with Melian.


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## Olorgando (Sep 13, 2019)

I must say that I view at least parts of what JRRT wrote about the Sil after publication of LoTR, published by Christopher Tolkien in "Morgoth's Ring", "The War of The Jewels", and "The Peoples of Middle-earth", as another set of "Lost Tales". The earlier ones became "lost" because the entire setting changed from an "England is Tol Eressëa visited by some Anglo-Saxon" to something entirely different - and way back further in "Earth's history". They no longer fit. The new "Lost Tales" also didn't fit - *yet*, one could argue, but the likelihood of JRRT ever making them fit would have involved a lot of back writing into the exiting mass of stories, as some new concepts would have meant upheavals close to those that turned the original attempt into "Lost Tales". As I mentioned elsewhere, the "Books of Lost Tales" would not just have covered volumes 1 and 2 of HoMe, but all the way to volume 9 in an extreme scenario.
As to using the "Letters" as sources, they seem to me to be far less reliable than any other writings by JRRT. Just consider how he was able to re-write again and again and again - just read "The Return of The Shadow"! The Letters? One-off, like C.S. Lewis wrote most of his books, no revisions whatsoever. Had JRRT used material from these letters for something he intended to publish, he would have given them his usual "revision torture-rack". With the letters, he was doing what he liked best - "niggling", inventing off the cuff.
And last JRRT was 63 when RoTK was finally published. He had started LoTR as a "New Hobbit" at age 45, perhaps in his creative prime. He retired at 67 in 1959. But he then did not have loads of leisure time to knuckle down on the Sil. He *had* put some things on the back burner while writing and seeing LoTR get published, things outside Oxford (and within too, as far as publishing went), but for professional purposes nonetheless. All this "stole" his time, wearied him, and frustrated him. Which led to a well-known human reaction to such a situation, displacement activities. Among which were quite a few letters that he wrote especially about LoTR. Now we have some nice trivia here, especially about Hobbits, but one has to wonder how he sometimes started a letter in saying he really didn't have the time to answer a letter he had received - and then still proceed to answer the letter for pages upon pages. Insult comes to injury when he occasionally actually never sent that long letter! It has been preserved for us to read in Humphrey Carpenter's edited book "The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien", but after niggling on for pages and pages, JRRT then actually sent a very short letter - basically what he had started the long, non-sent one with. Trivia is nice, but as sources for very fundamental issues about Middle-earth, I view the letters with the greatest suspicion.


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## ArwenStar (Sep 13, 2019)

This is an extremely conflicting yet interesting theory. I always assumed that Gandalf was a Maia, but that was from secondary sources. (Have not read Silmarillon yet☹️). There is good evidence to say things either way. Perhaps... not likely, but perhaps there is some type of half Valar half Maiar. I doubt my own theory though. It sounds really silly. And if Gandalf was half-half, would that make Saruman and so forth half-half too? Would that give them different abilities or weaknesses? I ask to many questions.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 13, 2019)

There can't be too many questions. I have found that some of my own have been answered previously, as I've read through some of the older threads here; perhaps you will find the same. In any case, it makes for interesting reading.

Your idea is no odder than some other theories on display in various forums; I'd say only that the Valar, Maiar, and other, unnamed Ainur are the legendarium analogues of the heavenly hierarchy of Catholicism. I'm no expert on that, but I don't believe there are any "hybrid" forms there. Perhaps one of our RC members may be able to shed light on the subject.

One note on the earlier discussion: the statement that the Istari were creatures solely of the Third Age doesn't contradict the idea that Olorin may have visited ME previously; the Istari were sent as a "special mission", for a specific Third Age purpose, as "messengers", and in special and limited forms. Their roles in this mission are therefore separate from their activities in another context.

And welcome to the forum, ArwenStar!


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## ArwenStar (Sep 14, 2019)

Thanks!


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