# Recipe For Power?



## YayGollum (Sep 11, 2008)

Greetings, all. Having all kinds of fun? Oh, I hope so. Why not? Anyways, I don't have all of those Tolkien type bookses, so I gots to ask questions. It is probable that the Tolkien dude didn't answer all of them. I'll take crazy theories, too, since I'll just end up carving my conclusions in stone if there aren't any real answers.

Rings Of Power. How do they make sense? We've got a bunch of elves and at least one Maia making the things. At least the important twenty have a bit of Sauron's spiritual energy in them. What about the others? I don't see why. They were probably just early experiments or little diversions. 

Any information on their sorts of powerses? The evil torturer Gandalf thought that the evil thief Bilbo's ring could have been one of them, so invisibility or some other super sneaky type power wasn't seen as especially powerful? Sounds crazy, to myself. 

This question probably has more to do with the nature of magic, but oh well ---> Why would a Ring Of Power make humans and nasssty hobbitses immortal if going to Valinor would burn them out faster? Why would living on the creepily magical land of Numenor make humans super-powered if that same thing about Valinor? Okay, so mayhaps the Rings Of Power aren't so crazy powerful that they could be compared to Valinor, but Numenor still makes no sense.  Ah, but mayhaps it's just part of the nature of the magic of the place, being made especially for humans. But still. Some magic burns them out and some doesn't? 

Would a human with one of the capitalized Nine not have turned into a Ringwraith if Sauron wasn't so evil? Eventually staying invisible would make sense, to myself, but I don't see why they'd lose their minds. Would the lesser Rings Of Power have had any creepy side effects? 

Any news on what happened to any of them, how many there were, who made them, why people stopped making the things?

I don't remember if I asked these sorts of questions before, but oh well. I didn't notice that I had.


----------



## Illuin (Sep 12, 2008)

> by YayGollum
> _Would a human with one of the capitalized Nine not have turned into a Ringwraith if Sauron wasn't so evil? Eventually staying invisible would make sense, to myself, but I don't see why they'd lose their minds._


 

Those are some pretty wild questions; certainly questions I haven’t heard before. In my mind, I liken the Ringwraiths to the girl in The Exorcist; but instead of being possessed for only six months, the Wraiths were possessed for six hundred years (at least before officially showing up on the scene). As far as being turned into a Wraith because of Sauron being evil; the overall purpose of the creation of the Rings from day one was to completely control and dominate the wills of the bearers. That was the ultimate objective. Like The Exorcist; it is a "takeover" (look at how her body deteriorated in just six months; as a result of a foreign, dominant will superseding her own; what would she look like 599 years later 

) . In _*"the neighborhood of make believe"*_; that is the best I can come up with. 

_‘Yet now under the Lord of Barad-dûr the most fell of all his captains is already master of your outer wall,’ said Gandalf. ‘King of Angmar long ago, Sorcerer, Ringwraith, Lord of the Nazgûl, *a* *spear of terror in the hand of Sauron*, shadow of despair.’_


I am quite certain that Tolkien and Sauron were at least in the back of William Peter Blatty’s mind when writing his horror novel.


----------



## YayGollum (Sep 13, 2008)

Hm? These are not questions that everyone thought up already? They seem fairly tame, to myself. 

Towards that The Exorcist story, I know nothing about it. Haven't read or seen the thing. Horror's not really my genre, anyway, even if it's supposed to be some kind of classic. I thought about buying Dracula one time, but vampires are just too sickeningly popular for me to help them out with my money.  

Anyways, so you are thinking that the Ringwraiths might have gotten a dramatically necessary moment of clarity just before they died? A, "Yay! Go good guys!" a continent-sinking wave of nausea accompanied by a, "What have I done?" or a sardonic, "Heh. It was fun, though," sort of last thought? I always thought that they got their Rings Of Power however they got their Rings Of Power, they had lots of fun with them, then Sauron flipped a switch and easily (or mayhaps not so easily? I don't know) paralyzed their brains. All of the elves were somehow quick enough to take their rings off. Not even one human made it? Craziness. I figure that they weren't dead, and they weren't watching themselves do things that they might not have chosen to do. They were permanently subsumed. Some went more gradually than others, but their brains were eroded. Sauron could dig around and use their knowledge or just implant some general orders into his robots and let them use their intelligence, just not their willpower. When the hero Gollum saved the day, they would have just stopped moving. 

Towards what you call the ultimate objective of the Rings Of Power ---> I am not certain that I would phrase it that way. Their ultimate purpose was to be a conduit for Sauron's will. Without that, if not for the evil, "And I'm taking you all with me!" failsafe of the One Ring's, I don't see why anybody's will would be lost.


----------



## Prince of Cats (Sep 14, 2008)

YayGollum said:


> Would a human with one of the capitalized Nine not have turned into a Ringwraith if Sauron wasn't so evil?



What an awesome idea. Imagine if he who wore the one had such an influence over the nine, not just their creator. Bilbo could have had the witchking in the kitchen all day baking cakes while some of the others invisibly pinched leaves from the tobacco farms  Or if Sauron was a nice guy, and the wraiths went on missions to Gondor to deliver chocolate chip cookies. Invisible trays of cookies reaking of carion ... did Tolkien ever describe their smell? It's been a year since I read LoTR


----------



## Illuin (Sep 14, 2008)

> by Prince of Cats
> _What an awesome idea. Imagine if he who wore the one had such an influence over the nine, not just their creator. Bilbo could have had the witchking in the kitchen all day baking cakes while some of the others invisibly pinched leaves from the tobacco farms Or if Sauron was a nice guy, and the wraiths went on missions to Gondor to deliver chocolate chip cookies. Invisible trays of cookies reaking of carion ... did Tolkien ever describe their smell? It's been a year since I read LoTR_


 

You're a nut .


----------



## Prince of Cats (Sep 15, 2008)

Nutty and Lovin it!  

We can smell our own, I think  And I don't even reek of carrion


----------



## YayGollum (Sep 16, 2008)

I don't remember Tolkien specifically writing it, but it seems possible for people beyond Sauron to be able to control others with Rings Of Power. They just have to already be crazy powerful and probably need to know a thing or two about how to adjust the settings on the thing. Anyways, you didn't answer the question. So few of my questions are getting answered! If it wasn't for Sauron being all evil, would the Rings Of Power have doled out any negative effects? Eventually becoming permanently invisible seems like some pretty normal magical seepage, and feeling like butter scraped over too much bread (at least for those not naturally immortal) makes sense, but I don't know of much else. Is turning people into a Ringwraiths an ability of Rings Of Power, or just the gradual shattering of will via Sauron being all evil?


----------



## Illuin (Sep 16, 2008)

> By YayGollum
> _If it wasn't for Sauron being all evil, would the Rings Of Power have doled out any negative effects?_


 
Here’s a few passages; the first statement is made by Gandalf:

_‘A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until every last minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the Dark Power that rules the Rings. Yes, sooner or later - later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last - sooner or later the Dark Power will devour him.’_

Here’s another one by Elrond:

_'We cannot use the Ruling Ring. That we now know too well. It belongs to Sauron and was made by him alone, and is altogether evil. Its strength, Boromir, is too great for anyone to wield at will, save only those who have already a great power of their own. But for them it holds an even deadlier peril. The very desire of it corrupts the heart. Consider Saruman. If any of the Wise should with this Ring overthrow the Lord of Mordor, using his own arts, he would then set himself on Sauron's throne, and yet another Dark Lord would appear. And that is another reason why the Ring should be destroyed: as long as it is in the world it will be a danger even to the Wise. For nothing is evil in the beginning. Even Sauron was not so.'_

Here’s the last from Unfinished Tales:

_'This Celebrimbor revealed, because neither the Seven nor the Nine did he value as he valued the Three; the Seven and the Nine were made by Sauron's aid, whereas the Three were made by Celebrimbor alone, with a different power and purpose.'_



Based on these quotes; with emphasis on the last; my answer would have to be "no".


----------



## YayGollum (Sep 16, 2008)

Got it. That's what I was writing, just without the quotes. But that was one of the easier questions. What about the others? No crazy theories?


----------



## Illuin (Sep 16, 2008)

> By YayGollum
> _Would the lesser Rings Of Power have had any creepy side effects?_


 

Gandalf tells Frodo, _“In Eregion long ago many Elven-rings were made, magic rings as you call them, and they were, course, of various kinds: some more potent and some less. The lesser rings were only essays in the craft before it was full-grown, and to the Elven-smiths they were but trifles — *yet still to my mind dangerous for mortals*. But the Great Rings, the Rings of Power, they were perilous.”_

_



Any news on what happened to any of them

Click to expand...

_ 
Sauron seized some, but the rest are unknown.



> _how many there were_


 
Unknown.



> _who made them_


 
From the above quote; The Eregion Elves. Celebrimbor was the big cheese among their makers.

_



why people stopped making the things?

Click to expand...

_ 
Celebrimbor and many of the Eregion Elves were killed in the wars against Sauron shortly after the Rings were made; and the Eregion Elves were the only Elves that trusted “Annatar”; and after Numenor; he could no longer disguise himself. I guess he could have made a few more himself, but he did pour most of his power into the One Ring.


----------



## YayGollum (Sep 16, 2008)

So, that's a no, at least when it comes to crazy theories? oh well.  

Zero information on side-effects of Rings Of Power besides the stuff we already know, and the capitalized Lesser ones were only and at the least dangerous, in the evil torturer Gandalf's opinion. Dangerous like a car seems dangerous to an experienced driver in the hands of a first time driver, or dangerous like the Greater Rings Of Power, just a little less so? How less dangerous? They'll only turn you transparent? They won't make existence tiring, just less interesting? 

Sauron got some of the Lesser Rings Of Power, too? Huh. I don't remember reading that. Any news on how he employed them? 

Towards who made them, was the recipe merely known to Sauron and a few elves? There were decent relations with some Dwarves, and Dwarves know what they're about when it comes to craftsmanship. Was there a decent amount of secrecy going on, when it comes to this recipe? And even if all of the elves who knew the secret recipe were killed, others must have known about it, could have read some notes, could have tried to reverse engineer the rings they had, yes?


----------



## Illuin (Sep 16, 2008)

> by YayGollum
> _Towards who made them, was the recipe merely known to Sauron and a few elves? There were decent relations with some Dwarves, and Dwarves know what they're about when it comes to craftsmanship._


 


The Elves had that shadowy ability to transfer part of their being into objects (that is why the gig worked in the first place). The Dwarves didn’t have that capability. Also, Celebrimbor was the grandson of Mr. Silmaril himself, and probably inherited a few magic tricks from him .


----------



## YayGollum (Sep 16, 2008)

I didn't know that Dwarves (or anything else) couldn't do that. Did you just make that up? I don't remember Tolkien writing about the subject either way. Mayhaps it is so. I am unaware. I was always thinking that transfer of spiritual energy was how most magic worked in Tolkien's universe. Dwarves have employed magic from time to time. We just don't read much about it because Tolkien wasn't really concentrating on them. We read lots more about elves in battle, but Dwarves are more oftenly associated with war than song, which both races were large fans of. Argh. I'm repeating stuff from that Dwarvish elves thread.  Anyways, the fact that Celebrimbor was related to Feanor might explain why he was seen as the best of the Ring Of Power producers, but, especially when Lesser rings are written of, I would think that plenty would be capable.


----------



## Ithrynluin (Sep 16, 2008)

Illuin said:


> The Elves had that shadowy ability to transfer part of their being into objects



What makes you say that? This is a grey area, but I think that even though the elves loved the things they created, there was no transference of power or being as in the case of Sauron and the Ring. Seems to me like this was the kind of power or ability reserved only for angelic beings. But it's just a hunch.

This is a really interesting subject. Here's a short thread about it: Whose power in the rings?


----------



## Alcuin (Sep 16, 2008)

Illuin said:


> The Elves had that shadowy ability to transfer part of their being into objects


Are you sure about this? I cannot remember reading anything about that. I think Galadriel expressed some confusion about Sam’s notion of “magic”: the Elves saw and understood more about how things worked in Arda than Men, I think. I don’t recall that they could transfer themselves into objects: that would seem to me to be Morgul (“black art,” or more commonly, “black magic”). 

This is, I think, the whole problem: Sauron, as Annatar, taught Morgul to Celebrimbor and the Mírdain; whether they realized what they were doing is not certain

Galadriel, who lived in Eldamar and travelled through Valinor in her youth, questioned Annatar’s identity, particularly since he claimed to be part of Aulë’s folk. For her pains, she found herself unwelcome in Eregion, and she left. Gil-galad, partly relying upon Galadriel’s advice and partly upon his own unease, would not permit Annatar into Lindon. The implication is that the Noldorin smiths should have known that what they were doing was not a good thing, or at least, that it had a real potential to go wrong. 

That aside, Sauron showed the smiths how to accomplish things that they did not know. The lesser rings were “assays” in the craft; but of the Great Rings, Sauron was engaged in the forging of the Seven and the Nine. Gandalf suggests in his conversation with Frodo that they were for dominion, leadership, wealth, and power: things that interested Sauron. 

The Three were for preservation, strengthening, perseverance: things of interest to the Eldar in Middle-earth. Somehow, although Sauron never touched them and had nothing to do with their forging, he still held sway over whomever wielded them: they, too, must have depended upon the sorcery he taught the Mírdain.


----------



## YayGollum (Sep 16, 2008)

I always figured that most magic had to do with the transfer of spiritual power. Isn't what Sauron did with the One Ring pretty much the same as what Feanor did with the silmarils and those Telerish dudes did with their boats? They both talked about how they wouldn't be able to do it again. Were they just saying that they most likely wouldn't be able to perfectly replicate the originals? I figured that it meant that they used up too much power, which was just a natural ingredient for elves, which is why their products are creepy and magical.


----------



## Illuin (Sep 16, 2008)

Well, it may be implied or a stretch; but since some of Grandpa Feanor’s essence was indeed embodied in the Silmarils; it seems likely that his grandson (like I said before) would inherit some of those talents.


----------



## Alcuin (Sep 16, 2008)

Illuin said:


> Well, it may be implied or a stretch; but since some of Grandpa Feanor’s essence was indeed embodied in the Silmarils; it seems likely that his grandson (like I said before) would inherit some of those talents.


I don’t think the Silmarilli contained _Eau de Fëanor_. I think they contained the mixed light of the Two Trees, which might itself have been alive, and so the light of the Trees, and the memory of Arda Unmarred (at least as preserved in the Uttermost West) remained whole and inviolable in the Silmarils.


----------



## Gordis (Sep 17, 2008)

Sure, the Silmarils contained the light of the Trees, and Galadriel's star-glass contained the light of Earendil's Silmarill reflected in the Mirror. I guess the phial was similar to Feanor's works - but on a smaller scale, reflection of a reflection. I am not sure there was a part of the soul of the maker included as well - maybe yes, considering Feanor's reaction to the Valar's proposal to break the stones, but maybe it was no more than attachment of a Master to his masterpiece.

Anyway, I think the Ring project was _entirely_ different and involved something that Celebrimbor wouldn't be able to achieve on his own. There was Sauron's know-how in the Rings, not Feanor's. Yes, it was Black Magic know-how most likely, akin to what was used to make evil spirits inhabit the stone statues of Cirith Ungol.

So, the know-how was Sauron's. But why didn't Sauron make all the Rings on his own? Why did he need the Mirdain? Did Celebrimbor have some skills/powers that Sauron, a pupil of Aule, didn't possess? 

I think not. Annatar was likely not after the Mirdain's _skills_, he was after their _souls_. I believe each ring contained a part of the power/soul of its maker in the same way as the Ruling Ring contained Sauron's. That's why Sauron needed the Mirdain - to feed the Rings on their power and to bind the Mirdain to the Rings from the start. The combined might of the 19 rings almost equaled the One - it was a lot of Elven power bound to the rings. It explains why not only Celebrimbor was involved on the Elvish side, but also other jewel-smiths. Celebrimbor alone simply wouldn't have the needed amount of power or a soul big enough to forge the 19. 

I also think that in each of the Nine and the Seven there was a small part of Sauron's soul bound as well - along with that of the Elves. Maybe a few percent, but that was enough to make the rings corrupted.


----------



## Ithrynluin (Sep 17, 2008)

Great post, Gordis, but I tend to disagree with this part:



> Did Celebrimbor have some skills/powers that Sauron, a pupil of Aule, didn't possess?
> 
> I think not.



Even though Sauron's knowledge must've been substantially greater, I do think the Mirdain had some that was just their own, that they molded according to their own talents and innate abilities as _elves_. So I don't think it goes like this: Vala > Maia > Elf > Dwarf > Man (Disclaimer: this is just a sketch and is not meant to reflect the author's belief on the worthiness of each race ), meaning that I don't believe that the one that comes first encompasses the powers and abilities of all that come later on, plus some extra. Doesn't it say somewhere that the Silmarils couldn't have been created by the Valar, or something to that extent?


----------



## Illuin (Sep 17, 2008)

> by Gordis
> _I believe each ring contained a part of the power/soul of its maker in the same way as the Ruling Ring contained Sauron's._


 

Yes; that’s the way I see it. I was in the process of writing a long post; but you covered everything…and more . Have to get back to work anyway.


----------



## chrysophalax (Sep 17, 2008)

I, too, agree with Gordis. I believe it says that when the so aptly dubbed "Mr. Silmaril" created his masterworks, that he set all his skill, power, kitchen sink towards their creation. Probably one of the reasons his couldn't re-create them. Another sink of that calibre musta been hard to come by!


----------



## YayGollum (Sep 17, 2008)

Hm. But if the superly cool Feanor could have made the silmarils again, and he was just whining that he didn't feel like handing them over because making them again would be hard work, that makes him almost seem like a kind of jerk.  From what I've read, it always seemed that he used up some sort of irreplaceable energy, just as Mel, Sauron, those Telerish boat dudes, and probably others did. What's the difference between whatever you people call good magic and this black magic stuff? You are considering what Feanor and the Telerish dudes did to merely be the peaks of what elves can do with their kind of magic, which is never really explained and somehow doesn't seem to be the same thing as this black magic stuff?


----------



## chrysophalax (Sep 17, 2008)

Magic is Magic. The use to which it is put determines its "colour", so to speak. To my knowledge, Tolkien didn't use the terms black or white magic.


----------



## Gordis (Sep 17, 2008)

Ithrynluin said:


> Great post, Gordis, but I tend to disagree with this part:...
> Even though Sauron's knowledge must've been substantially greater, I do think the Mirdain had some that was just their own, that they molded according to their own talents and innate abilities as _elves_.


I agree with this, actually. There might have been _some_ skills the Mirdain possessed (inherited from mr. Silmaril himself?) that Sauron wanted to learn. Sure Feanor was a greater smith than Annatar. And note that Celebrimbor was born in Aman and followed Feanor as a grown man - he might have been taught by his granddad in person.
But still, I think Sauron approached them and needed them so badly mostly to use their power, not their skills - to bind parts of their souls into the Rings.

*YayGollum*: As I said, I am _not_ sure that part of Feanor's fea (soul, power etc) went into the Silmarils. Otherwise their destruction in order to save the Trees would have meant Feanor's death - literally, like Sau died when his trinket went into Mt.Doom. I don't think the Valar would have asked Feanor for SUCH a sacrifice. 

No, the Silmarils were simply Feanor's best masterpiece, not a container for his soul. Thus Silmarils didn't outstep the boundaries of Elvish creativity, were the height of inherent Elven magic, while the Rings were something not allowed, something the Elves would have never achieved on their own without Morgul.

Also consider the intent. Feanor wanted 1.to test his skills 2. to make shiny jewels for pleasure and enjoyment and 3. to make everyone say "WOW". There is nothing against the design of Eru in all this.

Celebrimbor wanted to prevent Elves from fading while living in ME - to "embalm" them, to meddle with Time and let them live happily as if they were in Valinor. Tolkien stated quite clearly: it was against the design of Eru. I guess lots of Elves longed for life without fading (exactly as Numenoreans longed for immortality), but no one had skills enough to achieve this on their own. They needed help from the Dark side and when they got it, they didn't ask the helpful Annatar too many questions as to his backstory. In fact, the situation Celebrimbor-Annatar almost mirrors that of Pharazon-Zigur

I guess the Nine were made to help individual Elves to live in ME without fading, while the Three were strong enough to preserve not only their wielders, but their subjects as well - whole settlements of Elves.

When Men got the Nine, the effect was unexpected and I believe unintended even from Sauron's POV. The future nazgul have become _almost_ like Elves: their souls became bound to the Circles of the World, much like Elven souls, and the Gift of Eru - death - was denied to them. They never died, but lived on and on, immortal- unless killed. That was exactly what Sauron must have promised them.
Their bodies were preserved as well, they didn't age as human bodies would do. But here was a drawback, a nasty surprise: human bodies were not meant to endure for Ages, thus instead of ageing they started fading, as Elven bodies would do. And the originally human bodies faded much faster than genuine Elven - thus in a few centuries after the end of the human life span they have faded completely and turned into wraiths.


----------



## Alcuin (Sep 17, 2008)

YayGollum said:


> Hm. But if the superly cool Feanor could have made the silmarils again, and he was just whining that he didn't feel like handing them over because making them again would be hard work... it always seemed that he used up some sort of irreplaceable energy, just as Mel, Sauron, those Telerish boat dudes, and probably others did…


I think that when the Teleri said that they could not again build ships the like of which the Noldor stole and Fëanor subsequently burned, the underlying notion is that the construction of the vessels was not engineering, but art. Engineering (and science) stress reproducibility (the subtly but importantly different notions of accuracy and precision, for instance), while art is, by its nature, one-of-a-kind. Reproduced art is reproduced by means of engineering and science. The ships of Alqualondë were the art of the Eldar, not their science, though what we might understand as science and engineering may well have contributed to them.

The same is true of the construction of the Silmarils by Fëanor. When Yavanna suggested that Fëanor deliver her the jewels so that she might break them and release their light in order to revive the Trees, what Fëanor was disclosing was that he could not reproduce the art that first ensnared the light. 

As for the difference between the works of the Eldar and those of Sauron, Galadriel told Sam that she did not understand his Mortal difficulty in distinguishing between the art of the Elves and the “deceits of the Enemy.” (I believe that is a correct quote.)



chrysophalax said:


> Magic is Magic. The use to which it is put determines its "colour", so to speak. To my knowledge, Tolkien didn't use the terms black or white magic.


While Tolkien might not have used the term “black magic,” the idea is clearly conveyed. “Morgul,” means “black arts” and is used interchangeably with the word “sorcery.” He clearly and unequivocally makes a distinction between the works of the Elves and those of Sauron and Morgoth.-|-​I was posting as the same time as *Gordis*, and did not see her post until after I finished mine. Like the chorus in “The Wasteland”, I agree. I agree, I agree, I agree.-|-​One of the Elven purpose in the Rings of Power was to permit them to continue in Middle-earth without experiencing the effects of Time. Elves aged just as Men, but far slower, and without the deterioration of the physical body that Men experience. (Consider the description of Círdan of Lindon, one of the oldest surviving Elves of Middle-earth, who had a long white beard.) Their bodies _faded_, and this distressed them: they wanted to maintain their physical forms, and the Rings helped them do that. The effect on Men was a little different, though, and revealed the means by which the Rings operated to be _Morgul_. How Sauron influenced the mental state of those who used them, though, is unclear to me.


----------



## YayGollum (Sep 17, 2008)

Well, the silmarils still could have had a bit of Feanor in them without him dying with them. There was some of Sauron in each of the capitalized Seven, but nobody wonders why he didn't die when some of them were destroyed. The art of soul injection might not have been so fine-tuned, at the time. Mayhaps the superly cool Feanor wasn't sure if he'd have enough juice left, or that attempting to duplicate them would leave him too drained or something. Sure, he probably refused partly due to the artist not wanting to lose his best work and knowing that he wouldn't be able to and probably wouldn't want to attempt to replicate it, but both reasons can fit. 

Towards black magic and unspecified other colors of the stuff, got it. Intent works well enough, for myself. Alcuin person, do you have any other information on how they'd be different? Galadriel could just be confused, thinking that the evil sam can't see the difference in intent, while he's only thinking about the methods employed.  

Anyways, my questions are getting answered. I thank you people. It seems that Tolkien didn't write too much about these subjects that I don't already know, so I have lots of room to come to my own conclusions, which people can only argue with and not disprove.


----------



## Gordis (Sep 17, 2008)

Alcuin said:


> I was posting as the same time as *Gordis*, and did not see her post until after I finished mine. Like the chorus in “The Wasteland”, I agree. I agree, I agree, I agree..


Same for me - we tend to agree most of the time, don't we?



Alcuin said:


> Elves aged just as Men, but far slower, and without the deterioration of the physical body that Men experience. (Consider the description of Círdan of Lindon, one of the oldest surviving Elves of Middle-earth, who had a long white beard.) Their bodies _faded_, and this distressed them: they wanted to maintain their physical forms, and the Rings helped them do that.


I think it was not the prospect of growing a long beard or even becoming all transparent-like that distressed them. I guess Elven fading is not much different from human fading: "a terrible cold feeling" like "butter that has been scraped over too much bread" ... "until at last every minute is a weariness". I think it was the joy of life that the Elves dreaded to lose.


----------



## Illuin (Sep 17, 2008)

> by Gordis
> _As I said, I am not sure that part of Feanor's fea (soul, power etc) went into the Silmarils._


 
Well, since I opened up this can of worms (my big mouth again ); to be a bit more clear, I didn't mean to suggest that a big chunk of Fëanor's “soul” or fëa went into the Silmarils; just a part of his spirit or essence. Whether it was an enormous amount of pride and love for his creation that caused this; it‘s certainly possible. Elves have many mysterious abilities (mind reading, spells causing tsunamis in rivers, healing, etc.) that in our world would be considered supernatural or "magic". Celebrimbor was Fëanor's offspring, and the Rings were, well; “magic rings”. Celebrimbor made three entirely on his own (maybe with some help from other Elves). These rings channeled spiritual energy; and therefore must have had some kind of “life essence” in them to receive the channel . It is also possible Sauron taught them how to do this; but even if he did; the natural inherent ability of the Elves to accomplish this would still need to be there. 



> by YayGollum
> _So few of my questions are being answered_


 
That's changed a bit recently; wouldn't you say? You know what they say; be careful what you wish for .


----------



## Ithrynluin (Sep 18, 2008)

*Here I go again, nitpicking away...*



Gordis said:


> There might have been some skills the Mirdain possessed (inherited from mr. Silmaril himself?) that Sauron wanted to learn.



I don't think this was so much a matter of Sauron wanting to go after their skills (though he may have desired it; after all, why not add some more knowledge to your already admirable repertoire?) as it was that he needed their skills combined with his to create what he had in mind - a device to "enslave" the Elves. Like letter 131 tells us: _"*With the aid of Sauron's lore* they made Rings of Power ('power' is an ominous and sinister word in all these tales, except as applied to the gods)."_ So both sides needed the other to create the great work that were the Great Rings.



> Sure Feanor was a greater smith than Annatar.



Why?



> In fact, the situation Celebrimbor-Annatar almost mirrors that of Pharazon-*Zigur*



Who?



> I guess the Nine were made to help individual Elves to live in ME without fading,



The Nine Rings for Mortal Men were made to help Elves?


----------



## Alcuin (Sep 18, 2008)

*Re: Here I go again, nitpicking away...*



Ithrynluin said:


> > I guess the Nine were made to help individual Elves to live in ME without fading,
> 
> 
> The Nine Rings for Mortal Men were made to help Elves?


The Elves made the Rings for themselves, not for Men. That Men acquired them was Sauron’s aim and intent (consider the Ring Spell in the frontispiece that Gandalf recites for Elrond in its original Black Speech); but the evidence, I think, would indicate that the Smiths of Eregion thought they were making the Rings for themselves.


----------



## chrysophalax (Sep 18, 2008)

Methinks I hear the can opener again, Illuin...and the difference between the fea and the spirit would be...?

Is the term "fea" defining what is commonly thought of as soul or spirit? Which term defines life force and which defines what many think of as that which lives on?

I ask here not for any theological reason, but merely from a Tolkienesque point of view, in order to get the correct perception on the question(s) at hand.


----------



## Illuin (Sep 18, 2008)

> _by chrysophalax_
> _Is the term "fea" defining what is commonly thought of as soul or spirit? Which term defines life force and which defines what many think of as that which lives on?_
> 
> _I ask here not for any theological reason, but merely from a Tolkienesque point of view, in order to get the correct perception on the question(s) at hand. _


 
Well, in the Catholic world; a world Tolkien relished (hence the Tolkienesque point of view); soul and spirit are not one and the same. Technically; the “soul” is defined as “self”; and the “spirit” is defined as “the intellect of the soul” (this is not limited to Catholicism; it’s a Bible thing; as well as Eastern faiths and philosophies as well.) Oh boy; I hope this doesn't open another can of worms. Please don't let that happen, I was just answering a question . At any rate; lets just say that it was a bit of Fëanor's "essence" that passed into the Silmarils (i.e. an extension of the Elves' mysticism and/or supernatural [to us and Hobbits] abilities). Now; speaking of opening cans; I have to go feed the cats; those are the only cans I will open from this point on .


----------



## Gordis (Sep 18, 2008)

> In fact, the situation Celebrimbor-Annatar almost mirrors that of Pharazon-Zigur - *Who?*



Sauron was known in Numenor as "Zigur". As you know, Sauron means "the Abhorred" in Sindarin - hardly a suitable name for the chiefest King's counselor, defender of Human Rights against the Bad Valar. 
Zigur means "the Wizard" - short and dignified. 



> ...this evil thing was called by many names, but the Eruhil named
> him Sauron, and men of Middle-earth (when they dared to speak his name at all) named him mostly Zigur the Great. And he made himself a great king in the midst of the earth, and was at first well-seeming and just and his rule was of benefit to all men in their needs of the body; for he made them rich, who would serve him. But those who would not were driven out into the waste places. - HOME 9 "The Drowning of Anadune"



*Alcuin* is right: all the Rings were meant for Elves when they were being made. The Seven had been already distributed among the Elves of Ost-in Edhil, when Sauron made the One. It was a later idea, Sauron's plan B, to give the Nine to Men and the Seven to Dwarves. 

Celebrimbor was no pansy, but nobody accuses him of intending to enslave other races. He only wanted to help his own race to fight fading. Initially, Sauron wanted to enslave the Elves: they were still numerous and influential in ME and he held a BIG grudge against them from the First Age. Numenoreans yet kept to their island; other Men liked Sau well enough. Dwarves never caused much problems to anyone, unless attacked. 

But his plan A - to let the Elves wear the 19 and to rule them through the One - failed. The Elves took off their Rings straight away when he had broadcasted his Ring-spell. 

And think on it: The Seven rings proved to be almost total failure with the Dwarves. Had Sauron tailor-made the Seven for the Dwarves, he could have achieved better results with this race. I guess Sauron knew a lot about Dwarves - children of his former master Aule. As it was, he had to work with the Rings he had :7 and 9. He gave the Dwarves stronger rings, but it was not enough.


----------



## YayGollum (Dec 1, 2008)

Another thought occurs, and it is related to the Recipe For Power: 

Would you be able to go underwater and find Sauron's skeleton? Or how's about in Mordor? Would you be able to go to the Misty Mountains and find the evil torturer Gandalf's skeleton? The evil torturer Saruman's body remained, but then, he was pretty messed up. Mayhaps he had lost so much power that he no longer had the energy to get out of his clothes, like poor Mel. 

It seems to me to be that Sauron and the evil torturer Gandalf's bodies would remain. Sauron grew new bodies, thanks to his ring, and the evil torturer Gandalf was sent back with something similar but way better. I haven't noticed much along the lines of other Ainuric bodies falling. Before they lose all kinds of power, shouldn't they be able to jump in and out of their bodies, thereby avoiding all harm? Couldn't Mel (if he'd had the energy) have simply slipped his spiritual foot out of his physical shoe to dodge Fingolfin's pathetic scratch? Creating physical forms doesn't seem to use up too much energy. 

Would an Ainur with the spirit of a bird be able to turn himself into a giant and majestic chicken, have his limbs hacked off, jump out of the body before it dies, make a new and complete one, and thereby solve world hunger? I figure that, after a while, he'd lose so much energy that he wouldn't be able to do that anymore, but I would think that he'd be able to do it plenty of times first, yes? 

If something besides an Ainur type thing were to happen upon the Recipe For Power and make a ring that could bring him back to life, would his bodies be piling up, too?


----------

