# The Nazgul



## Dark_wraith (Aug 26, 2002)

Hi im new to this forum but have read LOTR twice so i am not new to tolkien. I was just wondering if anyone else thought that the nazgul (ringwraiths) were actually kinda weak?? 

I mean in the book they were made out to be well hard and apparently some of the strongest servants of the enemy but if you read it, they dont really seem to be no where near as strong as the characters make out. I mean they run screaming from any kind of conflict with anyone who is taller than a hobbit!!I thought these guys were suppost to be the elite in evil and yet 5 of them couldnt even kill frodo at weathertop as they were fought off by aragorn. I know they wounded him with that evil knife thing but still if they had the strength why not kill him and take the ring?? 

I think that in the movie however they do seem to be much more nasty than they are in the book!!!!!

I'd love to hear some other thoughts on this.

=BeZ=


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## Anamatar IV (Aug 26, 2002)

every word you just said contradicted the other. In THE MOVIE aragorn fended off the nazgul. in THE BOOK frodo stabbed the nazgul and when he moved the nazgul missed with his blade and hit his shoulder. Aragorn and the hobbits then warded the nazgul off with the flames. did you read the trilogy or just the 1st book? in the return of the king the nazgul are the most terrifying things ever.


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## Dark_wraith (Aug 26, 2002)

The books arent actually a trilogy. It says that at the beggining somewhere. They are just 3 parts of the same novel. And yes i have read all 3 parts. Frodo DOESNT stab the Nazgul, he slices its cloak cos strider finds it in the mornin. The Nazgul are like the bumbling henchmen of sauron!!! In the movie they were actually kinda scary but in the book they were pants!!

=BeZ=


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## Anamatar IV (Aug 26, 2002)

and i quote:



> "Elbereth A! Gilthoniel"





> "It was the name of elbereth that hurt [the nazgul] more than the sword"



Remember that aragorn picked up a sword that disolved before his eyes? No, the nazgul blade does not disolve if it stabs something. A blade that peirces a nazgul disolves.


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## Dark_wraith (Aug 26, 2002)

But the nazgul blade did dissolve. It melted when strider picked it up as he kept the hilt and showed it to that elf that they met on their way to rivendell (cant remember his name but he gave frodo a VERY fast horse) and the elf said that it was a nazgul blade and beyond his power to heal.

But you have to admit that the wraiths are pants compared to what everyone claims them to be!! It has been a while since i read return of the king and i remember that they were a little more nasty but still no where near as nasty as they sounded.

If i could be bothered to go upstairs and find my LOTR's book i would quote ur ass off!!!!

lol

=BeZ=


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## Confusticated (Aug 26, 2002)

Yes, fear was the weapon of the Nazgul, their strength was in the difficulty of killing them.


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## Dark_wraith (Aug 26, 2002)

How did they kill them by the way??? Ive totally forgot. I remember their horses being wiped by a flood made by elrond and gandlaf but i cant remember how they themselves died.


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## Anamatar IV (Aug 26, 2002)

in rotk when merry stabs the witch king his sword disolves. When eowyn stabs him-it disolves. Go ahead. Give me some quotes. Why would a blade disolve if it just peirced a regular person? Ill get my books as well. It will be a battle of quotes!


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## Dark_wraith (Aug 26, 2002)

ok you want some quotes do ya!!??

Ok here goes,

ok page 193 in flight to the ford. Its on lines 17 - 24!!

I would type it but i cant b bothered sorry!!

It claims that the nazgul blade dissapears although just above i admit it says that frodo's does too.


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## Confusticated (Aug 26, 2002)

I was left with the impression that Merry's sword killed the Nazgul...and that Eowyn just happend to strike it as well.
By the way...welcome to the forum Dark Wraith


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## Anamatar IV (Aug 26, 2002)

merry stabbed behind the knee and eowyn stabbed it in the hood


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## Confusticated (Aug 26, 2002)

But was it not Merry's bloade that did the killing?


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## Dark_wraith (Aug 26, 2002)

ta 4 the welcome confusticated and anamatar, you have gone quiet on the whole nazgul blade issue!!!!! lol.

I think you have just looked in the book and found that particular quote!! I still cant remember how they died but i am currently re-reading the book so i guess i will come to it sooner or later. I have 2 admit i cant remember too much about the later stuff especially about merry stabbing the guy in the knee. I didnt remember that at all. 

i have started wondering WHY the nazgul disguised themselves as black riders. I mean their true from is much more nasty looking and powerful and if the ring really is that important to sauron then i would have sent out my best warriors in their most powerful froms. Not the chuckle brothers wearing black coats!!!

=BeZ=


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## Dark_wraith (Aug 26, 2002)

confisticated, i read ur post in the other room and i suppose that horses would make them faster but surely they could go as their own form on the horses. Or possibly ride something cooler like a flying orc or summat!!!

I know it sounds hard to believe but didnt sauron find a way to breed super trolls?? They were called uruk hai or something i think. i cant remember though but surely if he got the right orc to mate with the right chicken.........

A flying orc!!!

lol

=BeZ=


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## Anamatar IV (Aug 26, 2002)

the two towers:

Page 201:

"At that moment a shadow fell over them.The bright moonlight seemed to be suddenly cut off. several of the riders cried out, and crouched, holding their arms above their heads, as if to ward off a blow from above: a blind fear and a deadly cold fell on them. Cowering they looked up. A vast winged shape passed over the moon like a black cloud. It wheeled and went north, flying at a speed greater than any wind of middle-earth. The stars fainted before it and it was gone.
They stood up rigid as stones. Gandalf was gazing up, his arms out and downwards, stiff, his hands clenched.
"NAZGUL!"

Apparently it got gandalf anf the riders terrified.


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## Anamatar IV (Aug 26, 2002)

a few things. My mom needed to send an urgent e-mail so i was off for 20 minutes or so.

next. The nazgul could not be seen with out their robes. re-read the part where eowyn fights him.

if the nazgul took their swords and stabbed aragorn would they disolve?


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## Beregond (Aug 26, 2002)

Dark Wraith - Saruman created the Uruk-Hai. They were "super-Orcs", not trolls.

As for the Nazgul, they were not "designed" to fight at first. As others have said, fear was their weapon until Sauron gave special powers to the Witch King in Return Of The King, making him the daddy of fighters. They are so hard to kill beacuse people are too afraid to attack them properly.

By the way, hi everyone, I'm new.


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## Anamatar IV (Aug 26, 2002)

welcome to the forum. You'll find extensive arguments like this all through out thsi site.


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## Dark_wraith (Aug 26, 2002)

i know for certain that somewhere in the book there is mention of a new breed of troll that can walk in the daylight and is stronger, faster and smarter than regular trolls. I KNOW that!!! Its somewhere in fellowship.

secondly, i was under the impression that the nazgul actually had a physical form. I cant remember very much but im sure i can remember something about them having wings!!

Oh and the flying orc/chicken thing was just a joke. I wasnt actually sayin that sauron could make an orc fly by making it shag a chicken!!!

=BeZ=


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## Dark_wraith (Aug 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Anamatar IV _
> *if the nazgul took their swords and stabbed aragorn would they disolve? *



They didnt stab aragron did they?? Im talkin bout when they stabbed frodo with that nasty dagger thingy.


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## Anamatar IV (Aug 26, 2002)

no youre thinking about the balrog. That had WINGS OF SHADOW.

quote numero dos:



> ...he threw back his cloak and lo! there was a crown...on nothingness.


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## Dark_wraith (Aug 26, 2002)

but im SURE i read something about wings!!!! Its got something to do with a river too i think......
...........damn i hate bein dumb!!!

i will remember it when i read it and quote ur ass off anamatar!!! lol


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## Beregond (Aug 26, 2002)

Cheers for the welcome.

And of course they had a physical form, it was just invisible!  

The only serious reference toTrolls in the Fellowship is near the start, Sam gabbing in the pub with Ted Sandyman I think. Wherever they got the idea to actively involve the Cave Troll in the movie...........(sigh)


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## Anamatar IV (Aug 26, 2002)

i have yet to be outqouted

i know what u talk about. From the fellowship of the ring. A winged creature sahdow over head as the fellowship rested on the shores of the anduin and legolas shot it down. if u are talking bout that u are right. BUT that was the beast of the nazgul.

and of the nazgul being just pants...how about the cry that the hobbits heard in the marish?

Im saying IF the nazgul stabbed aragorn would the same thing happen to their blades? Whats the point of making them if they'll just just disolve if you cut someone.


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## Dark_wraith (Aug 26, 2002)

Oh sorry i though you were saying that the nazgul stabbed aragorn. I suppose that the same would happen and the blade would dissolve but i think it was more because aragorn handled it than cos frodo was stabbed.

The nazul's cry in the movie freaked me out big style!!!!!!!


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## Anamatar IV (Aug 26, 2002)

did they cry in the movie? What scene.

In the book though aragorn didnt touch the knife. It disolved before them.

25 posts in 1.5 hours.


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## Éomond (Aug 26, 2002)

The Nazgul did seem kinda weak in the movie. Aragorn took them all out on the Wheathertop in like 10 seconds each. The only thing they seemed good at was being scary.


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## Dark_wraith (Aug 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Beregond _
> The only serious reference toTrolls in the Fellowship is near the start
> 
> Im telling you there is a mention of super trolls!!!! I read it earlier today!!!!


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## Anamatar IV (Aug 26, 2002)

super trolls? maybe ur talking about the cave troll. Maybe ur talkin about the STONE trolls that the hobbits passed after frodo got stabbed.


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## Dark_wraith (Aug 26, 2002)

i meant like war cry. after they had discovered that the things they stabbed in bree were just bedsheets they all seemed to let out this kinda scream and it freaked me out big style!!!

In all honesty the way the nine are described you wouldnt think aragorn would be able to easily fight one, never mind all of them (although in the book only 5 were at weathertop, the other 4 chasing gandalf).


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## Dark_wraith (Aug 26, 2002)

Im pretty sure it was near to the part where they found the stone trolls but i know for a fact that i am not mistaken!! It is when there is talk of how little english the trolls speak. it may be in the back in the appendices actually.


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## Anamatar IV (Aug 26, 2002)

but aragorn didnt take out the nazgul. This is in the lord of the rings forum so you must mean in the book. In the book the each took a brand and, being afraid of fire, the nazgul ran away.


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## Beregond (Aug 26, 2002)

OK, Ok........................(smile and back away, Beregond).

Sorry, Anamatar IV, but I have here in front of me:


> He stooped and lifted up a long thin knife. There was a cold gleam in it. As Strider raised it they saw that near the end its edge was notched and the point was broken off. But even as he held it up in the growing light, they gazed in astonishment, for the blade seemed to melt, and vanished like a smoke in the air, leaving only the hilt in Strider's hand.


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## Dark_wraith (Aug 26, 2002)

woohoo! i was right at last!!! I know that aragorn didnt take out the nazgul but he still fought them back and i wouldnt have thought that 1 of him and 3 little hobbits could scare them away in the dark.


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## Anamatar IV (Aug 26, 2002)

allright fine. Back to the point of this thread... if anything the nazgul were more fearsome in the books.


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## Beregond (Aug 26, 2002)

Definitely, the movie never really made it clear that the Nazgul weren't created to be warriors. The book, on the other hand, made it crystal-like that their chief purpose was to manipulate people (like the Southron in Bree) with fear.


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## Dark_wraith (Aug 26, 2002)

i agree that the nazguls were more fearsome in the book but still i think they did not live up to their reputation. Not like the balrog did anyway. 

I was expecting nigh on invincible warriors who were strong as hell and although admittedly they were hard to kill, they were no where close to invincible!!


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## Beregond (Aug 26, 2002)

Personally I thought that, in the movie, the Balrog was too big (although it looked stunning).


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## Anamatar IV (Aug 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Beregond _
> *manipulate people (like the Southron in Bree) with fear. *


\


Next point in the debate: The southroner was one from sarumans army.

Wraith-there is nothing about trolls in the appendices. Maybe you mean in rotk how treebeard told M and p how trolls were bootleg ents.


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## Beregond (Aug 26, 2002)

From my very limited readings of Unfinished Tales I can confirm the Southron was indeed in the service of Saruman - the Nazgul caught him coming back from Bree after they had crossed the river Isen, if memory serves correctly.


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## Anamatar IV (Aug 26, 2002)

coming BACK from bree. Coming too bree he was sarumans.


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## Dark_wraith (Aug 26, 2002)

right then im gonna find that bit about super trolls and quote it for ya in the mornin!!!!!!!!!!

The balrog looked just about right to me. although it would have been amazing to see the fight between it and gandalf, although that could come in the next movie.


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## Beregond (Aug 26, 2002)

Didn't I say that? Or have I misread your post and memory didn't serve correctly after all?


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## Anamatar IV (Aug 26, 2002)

the posts are so congested im getting confused! In the next movie they do show the battle.

we should feel proud of ourselves. We made a debate last 2 hours and go 40 some posts. Some threads dont get that in a week.


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## Beregond (Aug 26, 2002)

Go'en yersel' Dark Wraith! Might take you a while though!


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## Anamatar IV (Aug 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Beregond _
> *Didn't I say that? Or have I misread your post and memory didn't serve correctly after all?  *



srry-i missread your post. I agree with you then.


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## Beregond (Aug 26, 2002)

Woohoo stick a stamp on that one!


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## Anamatar IV (Aug 26, 2002)

Lets list what weve agreed on so far:

the southroners were in line with bill ferny and saruman.
The nazgul stabbed frodo and the knife disolved
The Nazgul use fear as their weapon
Strider warded off the nazgul
Sauron did not breed orc chickens or super trolls


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## Grond (Aug 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Anamatar IV _
> *...Wraith-there is nothing about trolls in the appendices. Maybe you mean in rotk how treebeard told M and p how trolls were bootleg ents. *


Here you are very wrong.


> _from Appendix F, Of Other Races, Trolls_
> 
> _*Trolls*_* Troll has been used to translate the Sindarin Torog. In their beginning far back in the twilight of the Elder Days, these were creatures of dull and lumpish nature and had no more language than beasts. But Sauron had made use of them, teaching them what little they could learn, and increasing their wits with wickedness. Trolls therefore took such language as they could master from the Orcs; and in the Westlands the Stone-trolls spoke a debased form of the Common Speech.
> 
> But at the end of the Third Age a troll-race not before seen appeared in southern Mirkwood and in the mountain borders of Mordor. Olog-hai they were called in the Black Speech. That Sauron bred them none doubted, though from what stock was not known. Some held that they were not Trolls but giant Orcs; but the Olog-hai were in fashion of body and mind quite unlike even the largest of Orc-kind, whom they far surpassed in size and power. Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race, strong, agile, fierce and cunning, but harder than stone. Unlike the older race of the Twilight they could endure the Sun, so long as the will of Sauron held sway over them. They spoke little, and the only tongue that they knew was the Black Speech of Barad-dûr.*


I'm sure that the Super-trolls that Dark_wraith is referring to are in fact the Olog-hai. I found six different references to Trolls in the appendices.


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## Beregond (Aug 26, 2002)

Don't think Dark Wraith's ready to let the Super Trolls die in peace yet! As for the orc chickens, I believe there was an attempt at making an animated version of the movie even beore Zaents (sp?) and Bahkshi's debacle where the orcs could indeed have been mistaken for chicken monsters!


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## Anamatar IV (Aug 26, 2002)

the one appendice i didnt read and the base of an entire argument is in it.


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## Grond (Aug 26, 2002)

It is one of the funnest appendices to read too! I suggest you drag out your book and have a look right now.


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## Beregond (Aug 26, 2002)

While that may help Dark Wraith's argument, I think he said his reerence was in the Fellowship.


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## Anamatar IV (Aug 26, 2002)

yes he did! he said he read it near the part where they saw the trolls. But we wont know for sure untill morning.


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## Grond (Aug 26, 2002)

> _from The Fellowship of the Ring, The Shadow of the Past_
> The Dark Tower had been rebuilt, it was said. From there the power was spreading far and wide, and away far east and south there were wars and growing fear. Orcs were multiplying again in the mountains. *Trolls were abroad, no longer dull-witted, but cunning and armed with dreadful weapons.* And there were murmured hints of creatures more terrible than all these, but they had no name.


There is a reference to smarter trolls; yet, I'm not sure they qualify as Super-trolls...but maybe super enough to win his argument.


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## Anamatar IV (Aug 26, 2002)

Grond, where do you find the time to look up all these quotes. Wherever someone is mistaken you show up with a fresh quote.  So wraith was right for once. His discriptions are so vague.


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## Grond (Aug 26, 2002)

Would you believe that I'm a very fast typist?? NO?? How about I've got all the works on Word? Not possible. Hmmmmm.... we'll never know.


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## Dark_wraith (Aug 27, 2002)

Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I knew i saw them super trolls somewhere!!!! lol.

I must have read about them in the appendices and not in fellowship then. As for orc chickens, very unlikely but they would look rather funny!! 

Oh and as for the animated movie, isnt it a really old one??? I remember it being on at chrimbo a while back. Anyway im gonna see if i can download it from somewhere and im gonna make a music vid to it and then i'll see if i can post it up on here somewhere. 

=BeZ=


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## Dark_wraith (Aug 27, 2002)

Hey is it certain that they are gonna show gandalf and the balrog duke it out in the next movie then??? Or is it just wishful thinkin?? I hope they do cos that would be the best fight in movie history!!!! And they had best show the nazgul in their nasty form too.

Maybe The guy can change my mind about the nazgul if he does that!


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## Anamatar IV (Aug 27, 2002)

im sure gandalf and the balrog will be there. BTW-i would think that unless you put that on a website, it would be too big for this forum.


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## Beregond (Aug 27, 2002)

I think it was some time in the sixties. Tolkein was apparently furious about all the pointless changes made.


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## Anamatar IV (Aug 27, 2002)

The nazgul stabbed frodo
Strider warded off the nazgul
The nazgul blade disolved
The nazguls weapon was fear
In the book they were more fearsome than in the movie
And...*sigh* there were super trolls in the lord of the rings


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## Grond (Aug 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Beregond _
> *I think it was some time in the sixties. Tolkein was apparently furious about all the pointless changes made. *


Actually Ralph Bakshi made the annimated LOTR which was released in 1978... some 6 years after Tolkien had died... so he didn't protest that production.


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## Anamatar IV (Aug 27, 2002)

maybe ur talking abou the hobbit? I dont know when that came out but...


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## Lantarion (Aug 27, 2002)

Did the Hobbit come out first, or the LotR? The animated movies, I mean.


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## Confusticated (Aug 27, 2002)

The animated Hobbit came out before the animated LOTR

The Hobbit: 1977
LOTR: 1978
The Return of the King: 1979


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## Anamatar IV (Aug 27, 2002)

so beregond...what the hell were u talking about?


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## Confusticated (Aug 27, 2002)

Well he/she _did_ say that it was during "the 60s"...


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## Dark_wraith (Aug 27, 2002)

it seemed pretty old. i think it would b cool if they did a manga style lord of the rings thing. not with really manga characters but a LOTR's animation that wasnt childish and was VERY faithful to the book. it would just b cool i think.

I just loved how happy you sounded about them super trolls anamatar!!
lol 

 

=BeZ=


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## Anamatar IV (Aug 27, 2002)

? What do you mean?


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## WakanaTachibana (Aug 27, 2002)

if you recall in the battle in the return of the king, the Witch King of Angamar the lead Nazgul does a huge amount of damage in battle to the forces of good, not acting weak at all.


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## Beregond (Aug 27, 2002)

I mean there was (as I said in my post  ) another animated movie attempted BEFORE Bakshi's abomination. I read this in the book that is a collection of JRR's letters to various people about his work. In it he complained about the Orcs having beaks and feathers and "Boromir" being pronounced "Biromor" to name but two things. He even went as far as to complain about the rooms in the Prancing Pony being given numbers. Ah, the ol' perfectionist.................


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## Anamatar IV (Aug 27, 2002)

i was talking to dw. He said he liked how i said super trolls or something like that.


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## Dark_wraith (Aug 28, 2002)

anamatar, i just found it very funny when you admitted there were super trolls. You didnt sound v.happy!!

Wakana, i will admit the witch king does some major ass kickin in that bit but thats only after he has been powered up. I am talking about when the ring wraiths were stalking the fellowship. They seemed almost comically stupid when it came to finding them and increadibly cowardly.

 

=BeZ=


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## Grond (Aug 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Beregond _
> *I mean there was (as I said in my post  ) another animated movie attempted BEFORE Bakshi's abomination. I read this in the book that is a collection of JRR's letters to various people about his work. In it he complained about the Orcs having beaks and feathers and "Boromir" being pronounced "Biromor" to name but two things. He even went as far as to complain about the rooms in the Prancing Pony being given numbers. Ah, the ol' perfectionist................. *


Beregond, I have searched the internet and all of the Tolkien sites that I know of and find no reference to an earlier animated film. I think you mean the Disney attempt in the early 60's. It never came to fruition as Tolkien was so totally appalled at the proposed screenplay. It had apparently been written by someone who appeared never to have even read the book and was to be geared at the Pinnochio audience rather than an adult audience. Tolkien nixed the deal and the film was never made.


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## Lantarion (Aug 28, 2002)

Thank God! 
I'm not sure if this was mentioned, but the "super-Trolls" (lol) were called the Olog-hai..
Welcome to the forum, Dark Wraith! 
Now, excuse me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the original topic of this thread 'The Nazgûl'? I'm all for sidetracks, but it has to end somewhere!


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## Dark_wraith (Aug 28, 2002)

well i dunno what version was on TV but i quite liked it!! I was only 8 at the time though.....


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## Dark_wraith (Aug 28, 2002)

ta 4 the welcome!!!


Yeah i know it was origionally bout the nazgul but i did try to steer the topic over that way!!!! God knows how it came to be about the animated movie!!!

Just wondering but do YOU think that the nazgul are actually as scary and strong as they are supposed to be in the book or do you think they fall short?????


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## Lantarion (Aug 28, 2002)

(Even though I think the topic would also be suitable in the Movie-forums) I would have to say that the Nazgûl are not half as terrifying in the movie as in the book. Sure, they can screech. Frightening? No. Eerie? Maybe. Amusing? Yup.


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## Dark_wraith (Aug 28, 2002)

oh but i actually mean in the book. Sorry i just read my last message and it gives across the wrong point. i meant like in the book the nazgul are supposed to be the evilest of evil things but they are total cowards. They run away from most things.


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## Éomond (Aug 28, 2002)

Well, there are freaked out by fire and water. But in FotR, their horses totally freaked out at the river! Not them. I don't think they're cowards, just weak.


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## Bombadillo (Aug 28, 2002)

the nazgul are maybe a little frightened by fire, but they die not so easy. That makes them quite evil and stuff.
but i have to say i found the balrog in the book much more frightening *** (sorry my english leaves me for a minute) nazgul.

btw: at the ford, the nazgul crossed the river with no fear, it was the tidal wave that just swept them of their feet, they stranded without their cloth, sword and horses, unable to do much serious harm, so they had to return to barad-dur to change...


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## pohuist (Aug 28, 2002)

Not exactly. The Nasgul are afraid of the water as well as of fire. Aragorn and Glorfindel drove ost of them into the the water (with the fire) and then they were swept away by the tidal wave.

I don't agree in general that Nasgul are weak. They were not made for fighting, their main weapon is fear and they do a pretty good job in instilling it into the enemies. They were also not necessarily the best hunters for the Ring, but they were the speediest and the most trusted, while Sauron was out of time. Finally they were very hard to kill (after all they were already dead). I don't quite see how the chief Nasgul was empowered before the battle on Pelennor Fields, I think he was the same as before. Maybe Dark Wraith can enlighten me. Finally, running away from the fight when the fight is not necessary ot achieve their ends makes them smart as opposed to dumb and/or cowards.

On the subject of super trolls, those were not really super trolls, just a little bit smarter and not afraid of sunlight. Definitely not qualify as "super" in my book.


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## Grond (Aug 28, 2002)

> _from American Heritage Dictionary, 4th edition_
> Super -
> 1) Above; over; upon: superimpose.
> 2) Superior in size, quality, number, or degree: superfine.
> ...


The Olog-hai simply being able to tolerate the Sun would qualify them for the title Super-troll in my book and aparently in American Heritage's book as well.


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## Dark_wraith (Aug 28, 2002)

I like grond!!! He always finds the best way to put across my stupidity into intelligent coments and then backs em up!!!

As for the nazgul thing, I read somewhere in the two towers today (it was in the uruk-hai chapter) that the nazgul's are the apple in saurons eye. it was said when the little goblin tried arguing with ugluk. Surely this would mean that the nazgul are the favorite warriors of sauron and i cannot think what would please an evil emporer better than strength as well as cunning and fear. Unfortunately if a wave can knock ten bells of s**t outta the strongest warrior in mordor then what chance did sauron have really??!!

lol

Ok before i get corrected a thousand times i was exaggeratintg!!! I know the nazgul arent probably the best (lets hope for saurons sake) and they werent beaten but if i was a nazgul i would stop with all the stalking crap and just take the ring from frodo. after all, he is very visible to them, they are drawn to him, there are 9 of them, 1 of him, and even if they are naked after that wave, surely that would scare the poor guy even more. i woul;d be scared too if i wa sfaced with gang rape from 9 undead warriors!!!

 

wow that was a long one!

=BeZ=


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## Dark_wraith (Aug 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by pohuist _
> *On the subject of super trolls, those were not really super trolls, just a little bit smarter and not afraid of sunlight. Definitely not qualify as "super" in my book. *



Oh and the trolls are not just a bit smarter and not afraid of sunlight. With a troll sunlight isnt a matter of fear, its a matter of wether or not they turn to stone. these particular trolls do not. They also:
1. Stronger
2. More agile
3. More fierce
4. Smarter
5. Harder than stone

They also learned how to speak the black speech of Barad-dur

And now i think i deserve to have a smug grin!!

 

=BeZ=


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## Anamatar IV (Aug 28, 2002)

if grond hadnt been here (go ahead keep your secrets grond!) then you would have nothing to back up super trolls.


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## Dark_wraith (Aug 28, 2002)

yeah but he was so my super trolls are alive and well!!! I have found the bit where they are mentioned anyway now.


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## pohuist (Aug 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Dark_wraith _
> * Surely this would mean that the nazgul are the favorite warriors of sauron and i cannot think what would please an evil emporer better than strength as well as cunning and fear. Unfortunately if a wave can knock ten bells of s**t outta the strongest warrior in mordor then what chance did sauron have really??!! *



The wave did nothing to them except drowned their horses. But Frodo, at that time was in Rivendell under the protection of Elrond and a bunch of Elves. For more about why they didn't fight him before, read the thread "Aragorn on Weathertop".
Finally, Grond, although dictionary definition backs you up, from the earlier posts of Dark Wraith I inferred that his understanding contained much more superiority (like a man vs. Nasgul who is in a sense super-man -- cannot be killed, instills fear,etc). Olog-hai do not qualify as such. Being able to withstand sunlight is a good quality, but Sauron was able to produce darkness during the siege of Gondor, so they could do without. All trolls are harder than stone. Smartness and being able to learn the speech does not add much in battle, as long as they were coherent enough to understand orders. Agility is a good quality but they did not need it much, they were used for full frontal attack, much like tanks would be. In short, I do not see anything about them that with a little help from Sauron a regular troll would not be able to do in a battle. So yes, they were superior, but not as much as to become "super" for me.


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## Dark_wraith (Aug 28, 2002)

did you not read my above post???? The olog-hai were stronger, smarter, faster, harder and could withstand sunlight and speak. What more could they do to make them super, save from wear bright blue spandex underpants?????


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## Dark_wraith (Aug 28, 2002)

oh and if the wave didnt hurt them, then why on earth would they be scared of water????


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## pohuist (Aug 28, 2002)

Did YOU read my above post? Think about how Nasgul were superior to a regurlar man.


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## Dark_wraith (Aug 28, 2002)

yes i did read your post and it made NO sense. The olog-hai were not just superior to normal trolls. they were FAR superior, hence they would most certainly be described as super.


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## Dark_wraith (Aug 28, 2002)

im not talking about how trolls were superior to other beings. Sauron is superior to a chicken but that doesnt make him super sauron. I am talkin about trolls being superior to other trolls, in this case the olog-hai vs normal trolls. the olog-hai were much more advanced and generally more...well....super.


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## pohuist (Aug 28, 2002)

It made perdect sense to me, if you don't understand something that doesn't equal that it doesn't make sense. If you have questions whether or not the the tidal wave hurt them, reading the book will certainly help. And why they were afraid of water is not a question for me, but for J.R.R. Tolkien. Unfortunately, he is not telling. 

You believe that the above qualities make them super trolls and I don't. We have a different opinion on a subject, that's all.


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## Dark_wraith (Aug 28, 2002)

well what would make them super trolls in your eyes?? I cannot remember reading anywhere that the nazgul were afraid of water but i do remember aragorn saying that the water did indeed hurt them.

I will look for the exact page number later tonight.


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## pohuist (Aug 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Dark_wraith _
> *well what would make them super trolls in your eyes?? I cannot remember reading anywhere that the nazgul were afraid of water but i do remember aragorn saying that the water did indeed hurt them.
> 
> I will look for the exact page number later tonight. *



For waterfobia try UT. The quotes from Tolien is the only way to convince me of something you are stating as fact.

Super trolls vs. normal trolls -- many things, for example, 
MUCH much larger in size and/or strenght (like the oversized troll they used in the movie)

You example with chicken doesn't fly    
(the analogy is wrong, Sauron will certainly qualify as superchicken)


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## Confusticated (Aug 28, 2002)

pohuist, you admit that these said trolls are superior to normal trolls, yet you say that they are not super-troll in your book.
How so can that be? Does not the prefix super mean "being of superiority"?


Ps: excuse my way of speaking there! I am still in the mode of my RP charactor! hehehe


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## pohuist (Aug 28, 2002)

In my definition (albeit, not dictionary) 
Superiority means being better/stronger/wiser etc. than normal
Super- means so much better/stronger/wiser etc. that the original doesn't even come close.

I understand, that superiority has a "super" in it, but the semantics is different. Think about superman vs. man -- able to fly, almost impossible to kill, could overthrow buildings, etc.
I would qualify Olog-hai as super-trolls (as opposed to just a new, more advanced, superior breed/generation), if their qualities vs. trolls will be similar as superman vs. man


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## Dark_wraith (Aug 28, 2002)

*sigh*

I did not mean that sauron would be a bloody super chicken!!!!! lol.

I meant that sauron would NOT be a super sauron because he is not facing off against one of his own race to whom he is superior.

What is UT??? I can see no reason at all for the nazgul to be scared of water if it doesnt hurt them in the least. Fire i can understand. I would run too if a crazy ass ranger was chasin me with sum fire but water??? 

Nah.

Unless they are like the wicked witch of the west and melt, i can see no danger.

=BeZ=


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## Dark_wraith (Aug 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by pohuist _
> *I would qualify Olog-hai as super-trolls (as opposed to just a new, more advanced, superior breed/generation), if their qualities vs. trolls will be similar as superman vs. man *



Spiderman cant fly, would you call him super???


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## Anamatar IV (Aug 28, 2002)

first off-i agree with pohuist. being superior does not mean being super. If one bird is superior over others at catching worms does it mean that he should be oggled for being a super bird.


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## Confusticated (Aug 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Anamatar IV _
> *first off-i agree with pohuist. being superior does not mean being super. If one bird is superior over others at catching worms does it mean that he should be oggled for being a super bird. *



Well it seems that we all understand eachothers points. I see no point trying to convince anyone that they are wrong...because no one is wrong. It's a matter of how quick one is to use that word super.


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## Dark_wraith (Aug 28, 2002)

yeah but the olog-hai are not just superior in one aspect. If this particular bird was smarter, stronger, faster, harder and could swim, would you call it a super bird then??
That is the same changes as the olog-hai (with swim being replaced by move in sunlight)


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## Dark_wraith (Aug 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Confusticated _
> *
> 
> Well it seems that we all understand eachothers points. I see no point trying to convince anyone that they are wrong...because no one is wrong. It's a matter of how quick one is to use that word super. *



Ok i will settle for that! Hows aboot we chat aboot the ringwraiths again??


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## pohuist (Aug 28, 2002)

Fine with me. 
UT is "the book of Unfinished Tales of numenor and middle-earth" by J.R.R.T. Makes an excellent reading. Answers many questions about LOTR. You may find particurlarly interesting the chapter "The Hunt for the Ring" which, among other things, discusses ringwraiths and them being afraid of water.


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## Anamatar IV (Aug 28, 2002)

*Are the nazgul saurons best warriors*

yes they are--they are so powerful that people cant even fight them. Almost invincible.


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## Grond (Aug 28, 2002)

Dark_wraith, I use the quotes to help you and now I use the quotes to hinder you.


> _from Unfinished Tales, The Hunt for the Ring_
> 
> ...They were by far the most powerful of his servants, and the most suitable for such a mission, since they were entirely enslaved to their Nine Rings, which he now himself held; they were quite incapable of acting against his will, and if one of them, even the Witch-king their captain, had seized the One Ring, he would have brought it back to his Master, But they had disadvantages, until open war began (for which Sauron was not yet ready). All except the Witch-king were apt to stray when alone by daylight; *and all, again save the Witch-King, feared water, and were unwilling, except in dire need, to enter it or to cross streams unless dryshod by a bridge*. 3 Moreover, their chief weapon was terror. This was actually greater when they were unclad and invisible; and it was greater also when the were gathered together. So any mission on which they were sent could hardly be conducted with secrecy; while the passage of Anduin and other rivers presented an obstacle. For such resons Sauron long hesitated, since he did not desire that his chief enemies should become aware of his servants' errand...
> 
> ...


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## Windfola (Aug 29, 2002)

Okay, I'll jump into this conversation....

The Ringwraiths (a/k/a Nazgul), in my opinion, are indeed frightening characters, by virtue of their wickedness, their "wraithness" (so, I coined a word  ), and their desire to do the will of Sauron, regardless of what death & destruction they might bring about.

Yes, they COULD be foiled--as evidenced by the events at the Ford of Rivendell and when unseated from their winged mounts (one of my favorite phrases came from a description of the Lord of the Nazgul's flying beast: "...and it stank...")--still they were formidable, and not to be trifled with.

The only reason Eowyn and Merry triumphed over the Lord of the Nazgul on the Pelennor Field was that the prophecy of his demise stated that he could not be killed by mortal man. It took a woman and a Hobbit to do the job (bet that put a wrinkle in the old Nazgul's pantyhose, eh?).

Let's just say I wouldn't want to meet a Ringwraith if I were out and about on a dark night! EEEEEEKKKKKK!!!


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## Silnarrin (Aug 30, 2002)

I had always assumed that the Nazgul, being "unnatural", feared and were opposed to natural forces in Middle Earth (i.e., water, fire). That this is why they did not hurry to cross the Bruinen.

Also, that the river was the barrier to a elven realm, and that Ulmo never truly forsook the waters of Arda.


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## Dark_wraith (Aug 31, 2002)

your idea of the elven barrier is similar to mine. i always assumed that the nazgul never crossed because they were scared of the elves.


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## Anamatar IV (Aug 31, 2002)

they were going to cross! Frodo and the ringwraiths were on opposite banks and the wraiths were beckoning frodo to come back. When frodo refused they stepped into the ford and started crossing. But---when an enemy crosses the ford, the ford floods.


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## Grond (Aug 31, 2002)

Just a note of clarificaton. They in this case of the Nazgul getting ready to cross the Ford = 3. The other 6 were driven into the River Bruinen by Glorfindel and Strider and the other hobbits.


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## Anamatar IV (Aug 31, 2002)

but the 3 were gonna cross the river. They started crossing then the boulders and horses and waves trampled them. Then the other 5 drove the last 6 nazgul into the flood/


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## Lantarion (Aug 31, 2002)

I don't think they could have made it across the water. The Witch-King, as was proven already, could withstand water and even fire far better than any of the other Nazgûl, so he might have made it; another thing we must remember is that the Ring, the relic to which Sauron's (and therefore their) power and life-force were bound, was very close at hand. This might have made the Nazgûl a bit more resistant to the things they were 'allergic' to.


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## Anamatar IV (Aug 31, 2002)

but they coundnt have crossed anyways. If the ford hadnt flooded of course they could cross and kill frodo and raid rivindell and all that.


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## Dark_wraith (Sep 1, 2002)

oh right i didnt read my post until just now!! lol. Yeah i know that they did actually try but i always assumed it was the elves that made them hesitate rather than the water.

I didnt know that the river flooded EVERY time an enemy tried to cross. I thought it was just elrond and gandalf who made it happen that 1 time to get frodo across. Still i think that the witch king could have got across. 

If i was the witch king, and the ring was a KFC bargain bucket, i dont even think gandalf and elrond could have kept me back!!!


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## Anamatar IV (Sep 1, 2002)

gandalf and elrond made it extra forceful. I have a horrible headache from being in the guild of outcasts all night and im too lazy to look it up.


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## Grond (Sep 1, 2002)

Here you go Anamatar IV.


> _from The Fellowship of the Ring, Many Meetings_
> 'No,' said Gandalf. 'Their horses must have perished, and without them
> they are crippled. But the Ringwraiths themselves cannot be so easily destroyed. However, there is nothing more to fear from them at present. Your friends crossed after the flood had passed; and they found you lying on your face at the top of the bank, with a broken sword under you. The horse was standing guard beside you. You were pale and cold, and they feared that you were dead, or worse. Elrond's folk met them, carrying you slowly towards Rivendell.'
> 
> ...


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## Anamatar IV (Sep 1, 2002)

like i said--the ford rises when emenies are approaching or elrond has great need for it to.


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## Dark_wraith (Sep 1, 2002)

i neva said it didnt! I was jus sayin i didnt KNOW that it did.


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