# Racial policy



## Hisoka Morrow (Nov 8, 2020)

Racial policies's stuff seem play a heavy role in JRRT's lore, from Noldor's policy to men during the 1st Age, to Gondor's intermediate between Numenor and the ME's natives. I'd like to discuss anything about racial policy in JRRT's lore, just bring and discuss anything relative you know, such as if Gondor is a melting pot of races like USA and Castamir is a racist. Or could Arnor get into civil wars due to domestic racial conflicts such as cultural shock between Numenorain and Hillmen?(We may assume that the Faithful forbidden racial discrimination according to their legacy inherited from their founders of their nation.). Could ME natives like Northmen get naturalized as Gondor citizens and even get elected as Steward? Yeah,it's a open-field discussion, welcome to left any constructive comments.^^


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## Chaostyr (Nov 9, 2020)

Well we know all about racial policies between Elves and Dwarves, although their relations seem to have ended on a high note. Hobbits also seemed to, at best, tolerate non hobbit folk (and some hobbit folk such as the Sackville Bagginses). If I remember correctly, when Aragorn became king, one of his first decrees was to officially protect The Shire from all outsider influence without the express permission of the king himself. No doubt the Hobbits had a big say in this action taken by Aragorn.


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## Aldarion (Nov 11, 2020)

Hisoka Morrow said:


> Racial policies's stuff seem play a heavy role in JRRT's lore, from Noldor's policy to men during the 1st Age, to Gondor's intermediate between Numenor and the ME's natives. I'd like to discuss anything about racial policy in JRRT's lore, just bring and discuss anything relative you know, such as if Gondor is a melting pot of races like USA and Castamir is a racist. Or could Arnor get into civil wars due to domestic racial conflicts such as cultural shock between Numenorain and Hillmen?(We may assume that the Faithful forbidden racial discrimination according to their legacy inherited from their founders of their nation.). Could ME natives like Northmen get naturalized as Gondor citizens and even get elected as Steward? Yeah,it's a open-field discussion, welcome to left any constructive comments.^^



I am probably repeating myself for a hundredth time, but you cannot compare Middle-Earth stuff with modern one because... well, society is different, technology is different, possibilities are different. Gondor physically cannot be "melting pot", as it is a medieval society - and in a medieval society people, as a rule, did not move around very much, let alone mix. As a result, even in real life, genetic and typically (though not always) cultural and linguistic traits were highly localized. We actually see this in Gondor: Numenoreans are around Minas Tirith and Dol Amroth, and possibly elsewhere along the coasts. People from interior of Gondor however are more closely related, if not exclusively descended from, the indigenous non-Numenorean population.

Kinda reminds me of Byzantine Empire:









For what it is worth, this map is very close to how I imagine ethnic map of Middle Earth, though in Third Age the Dunedain areas would be far reduced, with Dunedain present in significant numbers mostly around Minas Tirith itself as well as in Belfalas, especially western Belfalas:





As a result of this, it is unlikely there were any racial conflicts: different ethnic groups, let alone different races, simply did not get into contact enough for there to be conflict. The only exceptions would be major ports, as well as situations where whole people migrated (e.g. Goths, Turks in real life, Wainriders, Balchoth, Rohirrim in Middle Earth).


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## Alcuin (Nov 12, 2020)

Very nice, Aldarion! Whence came the map of Middle-earth?


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## Aldarion (Nov 12, 2020)

Alcuin said:


> Very nice, Aldarion! Whence came the map of Middle-earth?



It was originally from Lindefirion wiki:


http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/lotrfanon/images/7/70/PeoplesOfMiddleEarth.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110406162949



So basically fanon, but as I have noted, it does seem to be well-researched and essentially how I always imagined state of things.


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## Akhôrahil (Nov 13, 2020)

One has to differentiate between ethnic groups (i.e. "races") and the native languages and culture of those groups. In appendix F Tolkien mentioned in which geographic areas westron was the native language of the groups that lived in those areas and mentions the areas in which groups retained different native languages. This does not seem to have changed much in his latest writings in the essay Of dwarves and men in The Peoples of Middle-earth. Tolkien very rarely mentions the "race" of people, for example in appendix A I (iv) in the entries about the kings and the Kin-strife and after the Kin-strife. One needs to remember that the versions in The Heirs of Elendil in The Peoples of Middle-earth were just different draft versions and predecessors of what later became Appendix A. It is also mentioned in The Peoples of Middle-earth in The Heirs of Elendil and in The History of Appendix A that Tolkien added information about the Kin-strife in Appendix A in the second edition of The Lord of the Rings that was published in 1966. In contrast to evidence that he was told to shorten appendix B from his draft version to a more staccato style for the first edition of LOTR there is no evidence that the small deletions in The Heirs of Elendil about the dunedain rebels in Umbar mixing with Women of the Harad and losing numenorean "blood" were to make it shorter and not because he abandoned this idea that would confilct with the rebels claim for legitimacy because they were against a mixed-blood King and because they looked down in the northmen. Tolkien certainly was unser no pressure to make appendix A shorter for the second edition, because he made the story about the Kin-strife longer and could habe added back information that he deleted from his earlier drafts of The Heirs of Elendil. If your ethnic Group has a significantly longer lifespan and if you know that having children with members of another ethnic Grouphas the Risk of them having a significantly shorter lifespan than marrying within your own Group makes sense and also makes sense because you do not have to mourn the death of your spouse for a Long time due to a large difference in life expectancy. Remember Elrond counselling his daughter about the consequences of marrying a mortal. Similar Problems apply when marrying someone with a shorter life expectancy. Inheritance law (we know nothing about inheriting property) can also be a factor to marry within your wealth/income Group or professional Group.



Alcuin said:


> Very nice, Aldarion! Whence came the map of Middle-earth?


Some information in the Lindefirion websites from Sampsa Rydman is gone, but I saved some of it and you an probably still find it on archive.org He did a very impressive map of Hanendor and Khand and also some background information for Khand and also emblems for various countries. Some of them were picked up in Middle-earth computer Battle Games. He was also inspired by information from Middle-Earth Role Playing (MERP). MERP Southern Gondor: The People and Southern Gondor: The Land or Arnor: The People and Arnor: The Land also contain a lot of information and can be found as scanned files on the Internet.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Nov 14, 2020)

Aldarion said:


> I am probably repeating myself for a hundredth time, but you cannot compare Middle-Earth stuff with modern one because... well, society is different, technology is different, possibilities are different. Gondor physically cannot be "melting pot", as it is a medieval society - and in a medieval society people, as a rule, did not move around very much, let alone mix. As a result, even in real life, genetic and typically (though not always) cultural and linguistic traits were highly localized. We actually see this in Gondor: Numenoreans are around Minas Tirith and Dol Amroth, and possibly elsewhere along the coasts. People from interior of Gondor however are more closely related, if not exclusively descended from, the indigenous non-Numenorean population.
> 
> Kinda reminds me of Byzantine Empire:
> 
> ...


Alright alright, is my point of view still too modern? 😅 😅 😅 OK...but I swear I got enough proof to say it's not modern at all, PLZ 😅 😅 😅 . As you mentioned above, major ports, in particular those international urban like Minas Tirith, Pelagir and so forth are where whole people migrated, and I think these places are truly match the definition of "melting pot". In addition, "melting pot" really only means major ports full of multiple races(Seriously).
There's a example can show there're really melting pots exist in Middle Ages, such as only in quanzhou, there're tens of thousands of Arabs massacred in only one siege during the Huangchao Rebellion. In addition, these maps only show general distribution of population's racial structure, yet there still can be many reasons for multiple races live together, such as military garrisons(EX:Roman legions deployed to supervise Gothic immigrants or Mongol's inspectors and their administration team in charge of conquered areas). And even during the Northern and Southern dynasties of China, multiple races were finally annexed together. Further, during classical ages, Alexander the Great had already tried
assimilation through massive immigration from different races.
As an result, such elements might appear in ME reasonably, for instances, though Gondor's Numenoreans were open-minded as respectful guests instead of fearful masters, official institutes were still needed for assimilation over those original ME natives, after all, you've mentioned that Gondor was a highly-organized empire, assimilation on all kinds of aspects played a very heavy role for the country.
I swear stuff to handle racial conflicts played a heavy role in Middle-Ages, such as Mongol Empire's racial policies controversially responsible for losing it's reign over China.
Consider it please😖😖😖



Akhôrahil said:


> ...Remember Elrond counselling his daughter about the consequences of marrying a mortal. Similar Problems apply when marrying someone with a shorter life expectancy. Inheritance law (we know nothing about inheriting property) can also be a factor to marry within your wealth/income Group or professional Group....


Ehhh....well...only if you can make sure you can get along with these lower races well, and even don't need their political or military assistance😅😅😅...Remember Elrond counselling his daughter was under the background that all Noldor states were having their political and military influence withdraw from ME, harshly speaking, Aragorn and all other races were a bit useless to them during that period(serious). I think this accounts for Gondor's royal marriage between the Norsemen.
And about cultural difference, hmmm.... I wonder if assimilation's necessity is the answer 🧐🧐🧐. After all, no matter how heavy the cultural barrier between you, I wonder if working together for a long future period will proceed your assimilation, yeah, seriously, in particular you're long-term commercial allies or even fight side by side in the same military unit, seriously.


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## Aldarion (Nov 15, 2020)

Hisoka Morrow said:


> Alright alright, is my point of view still too modern? 😅 😅 😅 OK...but I swear I got enough proof to say it's not modern at all, PLZ 😅 😅 😅 . As you mentioned above, major ports, in particular those international urban like Minas Tirith, Pelagir and so forth are where whole people migrated, and I think these places are truly match the definition of "melting pot". In addition, "melting pot" really only means major ports full of multiple races(Seriously).



Even those were not actually melting pots as such. People still lived separated - Constantinople had Arab quarters, Jewish quarters, those and those quarters... same goes for Venice and basically every multiethnic city I know of that existed during Middle Ages. So multicultural yes, multiethnic yes, but melting pot no.



Hisoka Morrow said:


> There's a example can show there're really melting pots exist in Middle Ages, such as only in quanzhou, there're tens of thousands of Arabs massacred in only one siege during the Huangchao Rebellion. In addition, these maps only show general distribution of population's racial structure, yet there still can be many reasons for multiple races live together, such as military garrisons(EX:Roman legions deployed to supervise Gothic immigrants or Mongol's inspectors and their administration team in charge of conquered areas). And even during the Northern and Southern dynasties of China, multiple races were finally annexed together. Further, during classical ages, Alexander the Great had already tried assimilation through massive immigration from different races.



And while what you write is true, those were a) exceptions, b) small-scale and c) rare. Roman Army at its largest was around 1% of the population of the Empire. Yes, cases of multiple _ethnicities_ living together did happen (and sometimes even races, but that was much more rare), but these were limited to major ports and that't it. For the most parp, people didn't move between different villages, let alone between different ethnic areas.

In general, kingdoms as such were multiethnic, but specific cities and areas rarely were. And when people did mix, it resulted in what you'd expect: violence, betrayal, violence, conflict, violence and more violence. Just for example, but look at Cumans in Hungary, who however had advantage of being nomadic and so didn't actually interact with rest that much.

Alexander didn't try anything like that either. What he did was to marry his soldiers and officers to locals - a move that was _not_ popular and ultimately failed, as Egypt and other Hellenistic kingdoms maintained Greek elites ruling over domicile populace. But there was no mass mixing.



Hisoka Morrow said:


> As an result, such elements might appear in ME reasonably, for instances, though Gondor's Numenoreans were open-minded as respectful guests instead of fearful masters, official institutes were still needed for assimilation over those original ME natives, after all, you've mentioned that Gondor was a highly-organized empire, assimilation on all kinds of aspects played a very heavy role for the country.



Cultural assimilation, probably yes. But we clearly see biological differences between Numenorean people from Minas Tirith and Dol Amroth, and native populace inhabiting the continental Gondor. Which suggests the situation I have described, akin to Roman and Byzantine Empire: imperial language and culture eventually dominate, but there is no physical mixing of peoples.


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## Olorgando (Nov 15, 2020)

Empires could cover parts of several continents, as did the Persian Empire, Alexander's Empire, the Roman Empire, its successor the Byzantine Empire, the Arab Empire, succeeded by the Ottoman (or Osmanic) Empire, the Mongol Empire ...
They do seem to be located mostly around the Mediterranean, specifically its eastern end, but that's due to the close proximity of Europe, Asia and Africa there.
That said, all of these Empires did, some sooner, some later, fall apart into smaller units, for most of history kingdoms, duchies and the like. These may or may not have been the equivalent of "ethnicities", however defined. A step down you might have (self-defined) "tribes". All of these units were often squabbling (at this level this mainly meant war) with each other. Does it get better when the units get smaller?

Um, no.

The tribes consist of rival clans;
the clans consist of rival families;
the families consist of rival siblings (a rivalry that could get nasty if a throne of any kind was involved).

These kinds of "units" all seem to be given to squabbling.
Where mixing did take place, is my impression, is on the personal level.
This would have been mainly by the small part of the population that was mobile, for a long time limited to traders, sailors and soldiers.
That's where the ports Aldarion mentioned probably played a major part, but don't limit it to sea ports.
Cities like my ancestral Cologne, or any cities along major rivers, especially those crossing several countries like the Rhine or the Danube, are also in the picture. And to a lesser degree major trading centers on overland routes, like Nuremberg near where I live now. The "Hanse" of the late Middle Ages comes to mind ...
Later on a certain mobility of professional groups, if you will, was added to the picture.
The Ruhr region, for a long time Germany's coal and steel center, has a large population of Polish descent, as many miners migrated there from (I believe) Silesia, another coal-mining area now in Poland, in the 19th century.

How much of this can plausibly be "grafted" onto Middle-earth is another matter.
Mining, just to take an example, seems to have almost exclusively been done by the Dwarves ...


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## Akhôrahil (Nov 15, 2020)

I am not a linguist or a historian. We primarily have the information from appendix F and from the essay Of Dwarves and Men from the Peoples of Middle-earth in which areas westron became the native language and that Sindarin was a language that some parts of the population learned as a foreign language in Gondor. I do not know the factors in our world that contribute to ethnic groups abandoning their native language and taking on a different language as their native language other than moving to an area in small groups where this other language is the native language and wanting to assimilate or integrate there and having the local population wanting them to assimilate or integrate there (typically through marrying members of the other ethnic group). Think of a country Like France. Large parts were settled by people who spoke a celtic language (nowadays only a minority in Brittany/Bretagne) and got conquered by the Romans and Lager by the Franks (who spoke a germanic language). I doubt that the Romans or the Franks were ever the majority of the population (except in small areas), most people die not go to a school in antiquity or in medieval Times and I do not know of any nationalistic or racist policies of the conquering Romans or Franks to actively forbid the use of the Celtic language or the use of latin or early-french in those Times and General drafts of the whole population for a longer military service was also not the practice in those times. There is the case of parts o Romania where invading slavs abandoned their native language and took a roman language as their native language and the opposite case of Bulgaria and Croatio (there used to be more people who spoke Italian as their native language at least along the Coast at least until the End of the Austro-Hungarian empire).


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## Hisoka Morrow (Nov 15, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> Mining, just to take an example, seems to have almost exclusively been done by the Dwarves ...


Ehh...such phenomen would only appear in the 3rd Age, right?Don't forget that Numenor's Mithril or Gondolin's mining enterprise



Aldarion said:


> ...But we clearly see biological differences between Numenorean people from Minas Tirith and Dol Amroth, and native populace inhabiting the continental Gondor....


Hmm...I beg your pardon your so-called biological differences could be like English between UK and it's dialect speakers colonies, or maybe states among USA 🧐 . Yeah, the USA each state has their own biological such as dialects, taboos, and so on. However, when it comes to formal stuff such as economic stuff like taxes or military stuff like army rank promotion rules, none has privilege in theory. As you mentioned before, Gondor is a highly-centralized empire, thus no matter you're from Minas Tirith or Dol Amroth, your army rank promotion condition will be the fair in general.


OK OK, now let's summarize your tributes
1.Different races tend to live with their similar kinds.
2.Each race aren't necessary to live with aliens due to all kinds of inconvenience
3.Different races living together in small groups often ends up with hateful smash
To sum up, it's my mistake to misunderstand the definition of "melting pot", you have my sincere apology 😅 😅

OK, now let's discuss further, what if when it comes to other racial policy's stuff, such as Gondor policies about ME natives, including these natives could elect or even get elected as Council-Men, or Steward yet at the cost of having the same military obligated service and paying the same rate of taxes like all Numenoreans, or Castamir did propose discrimination laws in the Council before his revolt, Gondor's commercial guilds laws about employee for ME natives, and so on.

Yeah, just be free to provide anything constructive you know.


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## Aldarion (Nov 15, 2020)

Hisoka Morrow said:


> Hmm...I beg your pardon your so-called biological differences could be like English between UK and it's dialect speakers colonies, or maybe states among USA 🧐 . Yeah, the USA each state has their own biological such as dialects, taboos, and so on. However, when it comes to formal stuff such as economic stuff like taxes or military stuff like army rank promotion rules, none has privilege in theory. As you mentioned before, Gondor is a highly-centralized empire, thus no matter you're from Minas Tirith or Dol Amroth, your army rank promotion condition will be the fair in general.



Nope. What you are describing are not biological but rather solely cultural differences. I am talking about biological, physical differences. Look at descriptions:
_grim-faced they were, and shorter and somewhat swarthier than any men that Pippin had yet seen in Gondor _(Forlong's men from Lossarnach)
_and behind them seven hundreds of men at arms, tall as lords, grey-eyed, dark-haired, singing as they came _(Imrahil's men)

Just from that, there are quite clear regional differences between Numenorean colonists and indigenous Gondorians.

It is true however that Gondor is not feudal state. Provinces have significant autonomy, but the final say is always with Minas Tirith.



Hisoka Morrow said:


> OK OK, now let's summarize your tributes
> 1.Different races tend to live with their similar kinds.
> 2.Each race aren't necessary to live with aliens due to all kinds of inconvenience
> 3.Different races living together in small groups often ends up with hateful smash
> To sum up, it's my mistake to misunderstand the definition of "melting pot", you have my sincere apology 😅 😅



Basically.



Hisoka Morrow said:


> OK, now let's discuss further, what if when it comes to other racial policy's stuff, such as Gondor policies about ME natives, including these natives could elect or even get elected as Council-Men, or Steward yet at the cost of having the same military obligated service and paying the same rate of taxes like all Numenoreans, or Castamir did propose discrimination laws in the Council before his revolt, Gondor's commercial guilds laws about employee for ME natives, and so on.



Councilmen are likely not elected. Steward never was - originally he was named by the king, but eventually Stewardship too became hereditary.

I do not think Gondor _technically_ discriminates against non-Numenorean populace, but again: it is not a modern state (it is far better than that) and so you cannot think of it as a modern state.


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