# the old man?????



## ASLAN THE GREAT (Mar 29, 2005)

i have started doing some researth on the two towers book and i frind some verry cool things that i did see the frist time i read the book, like who is this old man in the white rider chapter, he comes into the story right befroe gandalf comes back from dath, if any ones know plase post here.............


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## Greenwood (Mar 30, 2005)

ASLAN THE GREAT said:


> i have started doing some researth on the two towers book and i frind some verry cool things that i did see the frist time i read the book, like who is this old man in the white rider chapter, he comes into the story right befroe gandalf comes back from dath, if any ones know plase post here.............


Exactly which chapter are you referring to? If you mean the old man Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas meet in Fangorn Forest in the chapter "The White Rider", that is Gandalf. If you are referring to the old man they see the night before on the outskirts of the forest (actually near the end of the chapter "The Riders of Rohan", then in the chapter "The White Rider" you will find the following exchange between between Gimli and Gandalf:


> "Wait a minute!" cired Gimli. "There is another thing that I should like to know first. Was it you, Gandalf, or Saruman that we saw last night?"
> You certainly did not see me," answered Gandalf, "therefore I must guess that you saw Saruman. Evidently we look so much alike that your desire to make an incurable dent in my hat must be excused."


So the old man the night before was evidently Saruman.


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## Eledhwen (Mar 30, 2005)

Tolkien leaves quite a few loose ends that are never really explained. We have had threads on most of them.

The lady who owned the brooch Tom Bombadil took for Goldberry is one; and Tolkien seemed to be still in 'The Hobbit' mode when he included the thinking fox, who is never mentioned again. We will never know whether he intended to link the old man more decisively to Saruman, or whether he intended a quite different plot twist, but abandoned it and didn't remove the character. But it's one of the things I like about Tolkien; his stories are much more realistic because of these things that regular storysmiths and film makers despise as amateurish.


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## Alatar (Mar 30, 2005)

I think i read somwhere that it was saruman who came to see merry an pippin brought to him by the uruk-hai...

By the way the thinking fox i thought was a bit out of touch with the rest of the story and i was gratefull when it did not turn up again.


By the way where is the thread about the lady's broach i would find it intressting?


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## Corvis (Mar 31, 2005)

Greenwood said:


> Exactly which chapter are you referring to? If you mean the old man Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas meet in Fangorn Forest in the chapter "The White Rider", that is Gandalf. If you are referring to the old man they see the night before on the outskirts of the forest (actually near the end of the chapter "The Riders of Rohan", then in the chapter "The White Rider" you will find the following exchange between between Gimli and Gandalf:
> So the old man the night before was evidently Saruman.


 
That's exactly what I think too Greenwood. Just off of the top of my head I can't think of any other old man in the story. Also earlier in the book (even in the movie) you learn of how Saruman would walk throughout Rohan cloaked as an old man keeping an eye on everything that happened in (in his mind) _his_ country.


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## Alatar (Mar 31, 2005)

And in TTT gandalf sttes that it was saruman therefore with all the evidence we have heard can we agree it was Saruman?????


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## Ithrynluin (Mar 31, 2005)

This passage (spoken by Eomer) does hint that it may indeed have been Saruman:



> _The Two Towers; The Riders of Rohan_
> 'It is ill dealing with such a foe: he is a wizard both cunning and dwimmer-crafty, having many guises. He walks here and there, they say, as an old man hooded and cloaked, very like to Gandalf, as many now recall. His spies slip through every net, and his birds of ill omen are abroad in the sky. I do not know how it will all end, and my heart misgives me; for it seems to me that his friends do not all dwell in Isengard.



Later on in that same chapter, Gimli echoes the thoughts of Eomer that the old man who drove away their horses truly is Saruman himself, in his opinion:



> 'If you wish to know what I think,' he began again after a while 'I think it was Saruman. Who else? Remember the words of Éomer: he walks about like an old man hooded and cloaked. Those were the words. He has gone off with our horses, or scared them away, and here we are. There is more trouble coming to us, mark my words!'



To which Aragorn replies:



> 'I mark them,' said Aragorn. 'But I marked also that this old man had a hat not a hood. Still I do not doubt that you guess right, and that we are in peril here, by night or day. Yet in the meantime there is nothing that we can do but rest, while we may. I will watch for a while now, Gimli. I have more need of thought than of sleep.'



In 'The White Rider', we learn the following from a conversation between the three companions:



> It was an evil phantom of Saruman that we saw last night. I am sure of it, even under the light of morning. His eyes are looking out on us from Fangorn even now, maybe.'
> 'It is likely enough,' said Aragorn; 'yet I am not sure. I am thinking of the horses. You said last night, Gimli, that they were scared away. But I did not think so. Did you hear them, Legolas? Did they sound to you like beasts in terror?'
> 'No,' said Legolas. 'I heard them clearly. But for the darkness and our own fear I should have guessed that they were beasts wild with some sudden gladness. They spoke as horses will when they meet a friend that they have long missed.'



And further:



> 'Wait a minute!' cried Gimli. 'There is another thing that I should like to know first. Was it you, Gandalf, or Saruman that we saw last night?'
> 'You certainly did not see me,' answered Gandalf, 'therefore I must guess that you saw Saruman. Evidently we look so much alike that your desire to make an incurable dent in my hat must be excused.'



Therefore, I think that it is possible it was Saruman, but far from certain. Perhaps the opinions of the Rohirrim should be taken with a grain of salt, since Eomer also considers the Golden Wood (aka Lorien) to be a dangerous place, when in point of fact, it was one of the greatest bastions of good at the time.

If it was indeed Saruman, an interesting question arises. How did Saruman travel so fast to Fangorn, why did he come himself, or was the old man only an illusion of Saruman's 'magic', sent to espy the ways of the Fellowship? Also, why would the horses sound glad at his approach, or did he put on a fair guise and spoke to them in a fair voice, to evoke just the reaction he did, in order to 'fool' or confuse the three hunters?


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## Helm (Apr 1, 2005)

I think the horses were already away by the time Saruman arived, they whined with happyness becuse they meet Shadowfax. If you what my ressening tell me and I will post.


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## ASLAN THE GREAT (Apr 1, 2005)

were it talk's about the old man is in the white rider chapter, and thinkx evey one for the info

could the old man in ttt be radagast ???????


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## Alcuin (Apr 6, 2005)

Ithrynluin is certainly correct, Aslan. The old man that Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli met at edge of Fangorn the night they reached the battlefield on the edge of Fangorn was Saruman. Gandalf was more aware of Saruman’s movements than is immediately apparent. Speaking with the 3 hunters before Gimli asks if they had seen Gandalf or Saruman the day before, Gandalf says of Saruman:


> He was so eager to lay his hands on his prey that he could not wait at home, and he came forth to meet and to spy on his messengers. But he came too late, for once, and the battle was over and beyond his help before he reached these parts. He did not remain here long. I look into his mind and I see his doubt. He has no woodcraft. He believes that the horsemen slew and burned all upon the field of battle; but he does not know whether the Orcs were bringing any prisoners or not. And he does not know of the quarrel between his servants and the Orcs of Mordor…


It is possible that Saruman left Isengard because Uglúk and his band did not reach Isengard when Saruman expected them, and he went to learn what had happened to them. He could have used the palantir to observe them, but perhaps that might have exposed too much of his private schemes to Sauron, to whose palantir the Orthanc-stone was already closely attuned by regular use. That would explain both his late arrival and that “he does not know whether the Orcs were bringing any prisoners or not.” It was fortunate for Éomer and his men that Saruman was late!

What I find interesting is that Saruman did not seem to have recognized Aragorn, a Man whom we might suppose had earlier made Saruman’s acquaintance in his travels. That might indicate that Aragorn had never met him, or even avoided him. If he did recognize him, he certainly made no sign, and left as quickly as he could, which was obviously very fast. 

It is curious that Saruman would not know that an Heir of Isildur lived and walked the earth. In “The Passing of the Grey Company” in his speech with Legolas and Gimli, Aragorn remarks,


> Did I not openly proclaim my title before the doors of Edoras? … The eyes in Orthanc did not see though the armour of Théoden; but Sauron has not forgotten Isildur and the sword of Elendil.


When Aragorn began his travels, Saruman was still a member of the White Council in good standing, considered an ally of the West. Galdor asked why he was not at the Council of Elrond: the Elves knew nothing of his treachery. Neither Gandalf nor Radagast, who was no fool despite Saruman’s contemptuous remark, consciously suspected him. Aragorn was betrothed to Arwen, his home was in Rivendell, he was a frequent guest in Lórien; and he, Legolas, and Gimli met Gandalf in Fangorn on his 88th birthday, so he was no youngster in Middle-earth. Was Saruman so far estranged from his old allies that he knew nothing of Aragorn? That seems to be the implication. Can we suppose that Elrond had discouraged Aragorn from visiting Isengard, to which Aragorn held rightful claim and which should have been a refuge and haven for him in his travels.

The old man they met in “The White Rider” moving from tree to tree is Gandalf approaching them as they stand on the hill where Merry and Pippin met Treebeard.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Apr 6, 2005)

> The lady who owned the brooch Tom Bombadil took for Goldberry is one


 Where is this one? I would find it interesting too lol but I never saw anyone post it yet.


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 6, 2005)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> Where is this one? I would find it interesting too lol but I never saw anyone post it yet.



IIRC, it is found in the 'Fog on the Barrow Downs' chapter, in TFOTR. Here's a thread on the topic. 

Alcuin, some interesting stuff, and a pleasant read! The Council last met in 2953, when Aragorn was a mere 22 years old, which makes me think he kept himself in the wings, and hence Saruman would not have known much about him, or would have thought little of it, or would have forgotten about it, ascribing it little importance in a hasty effort to quench his thirst for power.


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## Alcuin (Apr 6, 2005)

Thank you for your kind words, Ithrynluin. Your note on the year of the last meeting of the White Council reminded me of the story told at the end of “The Hunt for the Ring” in _Unfinished Takes_, “(iii) Concerning Gandalf, Saruman and the Shire’. Toward the end of the Third Age, Saruman, who was already jealous because Gandalf had received Narya, one of the Three Rings, when Saruman wanted it for himself, had become fearful of Gandalf because he was “uncertain how much Gandalf perceived of his inner mind, troubled more by his silences than his words.” Spying on Gandalf’s frequent visits to the Shire, Saruman also took up smoking, but in secret. At the White Council meeting of 2851, Saruman publicly derided Gandalf for smoking, and after a confrontation between the two,


> Gandalf … did not answer, but looking keenly at Saruman he drew on his pipe and sent out a great ring of smoke with many smaller rings that followed it. Then he put up his hand, as if to grasp them, and they vanished. … Saruman stood for some time silent, … doubting whether he read rightly the purport of Gandalf’s gesture. It was a strange chance, that being angered by his insolence Gandalf chose this way of showing to Saruman his suspicion that desire to possess [the Rings of Power] had begun to enter his policies and his study of the lore of the Rings; and of warning him that they would elude him.


This Council meeting was 39 years before the birth of Bilbo: the One Ring had not even yet been found. I think it says that Gandalf understood Saruman’s growing lust for the Rings and that he “‘“has left the path of wisdom.”’” (Quote of a quote of a quote.) Knowing this, Gandalf might well have advised Aragorn to steer clear of Saruman, even if he said nothing to Elrond.


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## Eledhwen (Apr 7, 2005)

Excellent piece of homework, Alcuin! Gandalf clearly had concerns about Saruman's studies in Ringlore.



ASLAN THE GREAT said:


> could the old man in ttt be radagast ???????


No, Radagast was a moth!


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## Erestor Arcamen (Apr 7, 2005)

yeah i know where it is in the book lol. thanks for the link


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## Trevor (Aug 5, 2017)

Another piece of this puzzle is found later in the chapter entitled 'The White Rider':

'Now I understand a part of last night's riddle,' said Legolas as he sprang lightly upon Arod's back. 'Whether they fled at first in fear, or not, our horses met Shadowfax, their chieftain, and greeted him with joy. Did you know that he was at hand, Gandalf?'

'Yes, I knew,' said the wizard. 'I bent my thought upon him, bidding him to make haste; for yesterday he was far away in the south of this land. Swiftly may he bear me back again!'


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