# Taters in Middle Earth?



## Neithan (Jun 11, 2008)

Hello everyone,

I'm probably the biggest Tolkien fan in Perú, South America. Having said that, I can't help but notice that there is something amiss in his references to potatoes in Middle Earth (cooked by Sam, and apparently eaten by Mim and Turin's band) because potatoes came originally from Perú; they were not found in Europe. Can anybody throw any light on the subject? I am aware that in Tolkien's conception all the lands of the world were originally in one piece; could the answer lie there? Then potatoes woud have had to disappear from ME (Europe) to be later reintroduced after Columbus 'discovered' America. What do you think?


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## Turgon (Jun 11, 2008)

I've always thought that potatoes would have been introduced to the Northwestern parts of Middle-earth by the Numenoreans - much like Athelas and other herbs. The Numenoreans travelled extensively during their glory years - and they had plenty of explorers amongst them who could have found these taters and brought them back to Numenor from where they could then have been cultivated back on the mainland. Just an idea of course - I have no proof of this - but it seems the most logical reason.

Welcome to The Tolkien Forum Neithan...


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## ltas (Jun 11, 2008)

I like the idea of Numenorean mariners in the context of medieval European explorers. 

Turgon already gave the best-sounding explanation in my opinion (if we view Middle-earth as Europe and West as Americas), but it could be interesting to expand this thread to other 'foreign' plants, as well. _Tea_ is what comes to mind first (although tea could be made of regular herbs), can anyone give any other examples of plants that 'shouldn't' exist in Middle-earth and possible suggestions of how they could have gotten there?


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## Prince of Cats (Jun 11, 2008)

ltas said:


> It could be interesting to expand this thread to other 'foreign' plants, as well. _Tea_ is what comes to mind first (although tea could be made of regular herbs), can anyone give any other examples of plants that 'shouldn't' exist in Middle-earth and possible suggestions of how they could have gotten there?




Tobacco (_Nicotina spp._) is a big one! I mean, pipe weed could be anything (the Native Americans I've sat with have four plants they call tobacco) and I'm not sure if they reference it to be or describe it similar to tobacco, but what Tolkien was smoking when he wrote the books comes from the Americas too (and they caught on just like the potatoes  )


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## Neithan (Jun 13, 2008)

I had never considered the Numenorean mariners as a possibility, thanks. That might account for the taters Sam cooked but not for Mim's earth bread which belongs to the first age. Actually, they are not called potatoes there but I am convinced that was what Tolkien meant.
Regarding leaf, I love Gandalf and Saruman's argument over Gandalf's smoking and not saying much during the council (also in Unfinished Tales).
By the way, Tevildo, there is quite a bit of interesting stuff there about Radagast (Yavanna's choice) and his losing sight of his real mission.
Thanks for your comments.


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## Prince of Cats (Jul 16, 2008)

Neithan said:


> By the way, Tevildo



 I just got it!


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## Neithan (Jul 16, 2008)

You mean Tevildo = Prince of Cats? I thought you had chosen the name and the picture because of that! Cheers!


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## Gilthoniel (Jul 16, 2008)

I thought Tybalt was Prince of Cats..
Or are we talking about a different Prince of Cats?
How many are there?!

xo
G


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## Prince of Cats (Jul 16, 2008)

We're talking Tolkien


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## Gilthoniel (Jul 16, 2008)

You have no idea how big a fool I feel right now.
Forgive me. So many characters, so little brain space!


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## HLGStrider (Jul 17, 2008)

I never assumed that Middle Earth was an exact replica of England. The maps are obviously different and while I would say it is "like" England, England is not connected by lands to any place with elephants and there are oliphants in Middle Earth (just by example). Middle Earth is whatever Tolkien wanted it to be, and he obviously wanted it to have potatoes. 

According to Tyler's "The New Tolkien Companion," Merry wrote a book researching the origins of pipeweed and stated within that it grew wild in Gondor and had probably been brought north (possibly by Rangers?).

I looked up the "House of Healing" chapter in RotK just to find Strider's little rant about the herb master. I decided it wasn't worth typing out, but it pretty much proves that this plant was in the area, so to speak, and well known, if under appreciated.


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## Neithan (Jul 17, 2008)

Yeah, but... Tolkien meant Middle Earth to be Europe, not England, and in that case it is possible to have oliphants coming from the Harad (South). Actually in one of his early conceptions England is what used to be Tol Eressea which was dragged back to the coasts of Middle Earth for the Faring Forth (somebody correct me if I am wrong).


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## HLGStrider (Jul 18, 2008)

I wasn't aware that Tolkien meant ME to be Europe, but I haven't read the letters and only one biography, so you may very well be right. Maybe that's in there somewhere. 

However, rather than conform to any image I prefer Middle Earth to be exactly what my imagination makes it unless my imagination contradicts something I see in plain writing. In other words, I'd rather it simply be Middle Earth and a place where potatoes are native than a fictionalized Europe with a long explanation as to where Potatoes come from.


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## Neithan (Jul 18, 2008)

You have probably read more than I have, but this notion of ME being Europe and Tol Eressea England appears in the Histories of ME (Book of Lost Tales I and II). Actually, when I read it, it was kind of disappointing; I would have prefered it to stay a place only in Tolkien's and my imagination.


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## HLGStrider (Jul 18, 2008)

Actually I have not read the majority of HoME. I have read the Unfinished Tales which makes up a little bit of that, I think, but I only own half of that even so it has been awhile.


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