# Old Forest/Fanghorn Forest?



## SpencerC18 (Apr 21, 2003)

Whats the connection here????


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## Lantarion (Apr 21, 2003)

Welcome to the forums, SpencerC! 
It's actually Fangorn, without the 'h' in between.. It's Sindarin, if you're wondering. 
Aanyway: I believe Fangorn himself said something to the effect that "a squirrel could travel from Dunland to Fangorn by leaping from tree to tree and not touching the ground", but I'm not sure if this wide expanse of forestation included the Old Forest.. 
If you're looking for a connection, you might say that they were both forests.


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 21, 2003)

From _The Two Towers; Treebeard_:



> Aye, aye, there was all one wood once upon a time: from here to the Mountains of Lune, and this was just the East End.
> 'Those were the broad days! Time was when I could walk and sing all day and hear no more than the echo of my own voice in the hollow hills. The woods were like the woods of Lothlórien. only thicker stronger, younger. And the smell of the air! I used to spend a week just breathing.'



Both the Old Forest and Fangorn are remainders of the same old, spread out forest that once covered an enormous area.

Treebeard's song is indicative of all the places he had been to, and we can safely assume that he journeyed under the cover of forests, not through bare lands:



> In the willow-meads of Tasarinan I walked in the Spring.
> Ah! the sight and the smell of the Spring in Nan-tasarion!
> And I said that was good.
> I wandered in Summer in the elm-woods of Ossiriand.
> ...


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## Eriol (Apr 21, 2003)

I think the squirrel went from Dunland to the Old Forest... As I understand it there was a big primeval forest ranging from the Old Forest to Fangorn, with (perhaps) a gap in the Gap of Rohan due to the climate of the area. I remember some musings I did about it a while ago, I will look for them. Treebeard, or perhaps Elrond, says that the two were once united. The reason for
deforestation was the need of Númenóreans for lumber, they razed the forest for lumber (you know, ship building and stuff).

I don't think we can assume all of Treebeard's journeys were under cover of forests, though, ithrynluin... Treebeard says that when looking for Entwives they searched in a lot of places, and probably not only forests since the Entwives did not like them. More importantly, there was no huge recorded deforestation in Beleriand such as happened in Eriador, and in the Silmarillion map we can clearly see that the areas mentioned by Fangorn are not connected by forests. There is no a priori obstacle that would prevent Ents from walking in open lands. We must keep in mind that "open lands" would be very high grass or prairies, such as could be found in North America when the Europeans arrived -- not bare fields.

EDIT: the name of the thread I was thinking of is "Ents and the Oldforest", at the LotR forum.


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## Inderjit S (Apr 22, 2003)

Indeed much of Eriador was covered with thick forests (Perhaps similar to Taur-im-Duinath, the great forest in Southern Beleriand), but a lot of it was either cut down by the Numenoreans, after the time of Tar-Aldarion, as timber for ships etc. This created it's own problems as it angered the pre-Haladin tribes of Eriador and their descendants (The later Dunlendings) held grudges against the Numenoreans for a long time after. 

A lot of it was also burnt down by Sauron when he came to war against the Elves of Ost-in-Edhil in the S.A as a means of allowing his armies to get a quicker/easier access to Eregion and because well, he is evil.


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Eriol _
> *
> I don't think we can assume all of Treebeard's journeys were under cover of forests, though, ithrynluin... Treebeard says that when looking for Entwives they searched in a lot of places, and probably not only forests since the Entwives did not like them. More importantly, there was no huge recorded deforestation in Beleriand such as happened in Eriador, and in the Silmarillion map we can clearly see that the areas mentioned by Fangorn are not connected by forests. There is no a priori obstacle that would prevent Ents from walking in open lands. We must keep in mind that "open lands" would be very high grass or prairies, such as could be found in North America when the Europeans arrived -- not bare fields.*



The lands Treebeard is referring to were long gone at that time, but you are certainly right that the woods of Beleriand weren't all connected, according to the maps at least. But maybe there were scattered trees here and there which offered some protection - I doubt that the Ents would be willing to reveal themselves to peoples other than elves.



> Aye, aye, there was all one wood once upon a time: from here to the Mountains of Lune, and this was just the East End.



I didn't really include the Ents' searching for the Entwives in my statement, Eriol. Treebeard is saying that there was one great forest from Fangorn to Ered Luin, Fangorn being the East End. But when were these times? None of the maps that we have of Eriador & Rhovanion ever show one large forest covering this whole area - maybe there was a time when Beleriand was more fully covered with trees, but we just don't get to see any maps?


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## Inderjit S (Apr 23, 2003)

> But when were these times?



S.A, before the landing of Aldarion/Numenoreans and the war of Sauron vs the Elves.



> when Beleriand was more fully covered with trees,



Beleriand was never fully covered with trees. The Noldor+Sindar never had any deforestation plans of a major scale. Besides Treebeard i journeying from one place to another would've had to pass through many 'plains'. i.e. If he was going from Ossiriand to Dorthonion he would’ve had to pass through the wild's of East Beleriand and Estolad, Himlad etc. In one of his letters Tolkien comments on the Ents helping Beren so slay the Nogrodian Dwarves after they had sacked Doriath, so one assumes that the Ents of Beleriand resided in Ossiriand, in fellowship with the Nandor, perhaps.


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## SpencerC18 (Apr 23, 2003)

Ok, lol, I think you took my question too lieteral. I didn't mean connected physcially I meant spritually or that the Old Forest actually had ents or something in it, like in the two towers it says they are connected somehow, like maybe the entiwives are there or something. There has to be something in one of Tolien's books where is says something of the sort.

BTY: Lantarion I appreciate your courtecy , but I'm not new here. I have been a member for about a year and a half. lol


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## Lantarion (Apr 23, 2003)

I know; sorry my sarcasm wasn't evident enough.. I tried to put a  but accidentally put a  after the sentence.. 
It's just I haven't seen you post that much; but I know you've ben here a while, don't worry!


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## SpencerC18 (Apr 23, 2003)

It's all goooooooooood!


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## Eriol (Apr 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *Treebeard's song is indicative of all the places he had been to, and we can safely assume that he journeyed under the cover of forests, not through bare lands: *



This is the assumption I was questioning, and the Search for the Entwives was simply an example of how Ents (and presumably Treebeard) did not need cover of trees to travel. Though they would surely prefer travelling in wooded country, I see no reasons why they would not cross open areas to reach other forests. I think my second argument on behalf of this point was stronger -- there is no record of deforestation in Beleriand, such as happened in Eriador.

As for revealing themselves, well, Pippin and Merry approached Treebeard and had no inkling that he was anything other than an old tree. I suppose that Ents must be very hard to distinguish from trees if they stay immobile. They had a great "camouflage suit" . In these travels they would not be easily spotted -- unless as an extra tree in some open space. Odd, but M-E people were used to oddity .

On the rest we agree . The OLD Old Forest probably stretched from the Blue Mountains to Dunland, at least.


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 23, 2003)

> As for revealing themselves, well, Pippin and Merry approached Treebeard and had no inkling that he was anything other than an old tree. I suppose that Ents must be very hard to distinguish from trees if they stay immobile.



I agree completely. 



> This is the assumption I was questioning, and the Search for the Entwives was simply an example of how Ents (and presumably Treebeard) did not need cover of trees to travel.



I wouldn't say they "did not need" the cover of trees, rather _were forced _ to travel in barren lands, since there were no trees in that direction. I'm sure they would prefer to walk about in the woodlands, and would venture out rarely - perhaps only when there were matters of great importance to be inspected, like the war with Saruman, and the search for the Entwives.


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## Aulë (Apr 23, 2003)

And even then, I'd suspect that they'd possibly travel by night, and avoid all contact with others if possible.
If they saw an Elf/Dwarf/Orc/Man approaching, they'd have no trouble camoflauging themselves.

I'm saying this because I can't recall of any tales from Elves or Men that tell of Ents and their travels.


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## Inderjit S (Apr 24, 2003)

> I'm saying this because I can't recall of any tales from Elves or Men that tell of Ents and their travels.



Thats because Ents were introduced relatively late into Tolkien's works. Also, they didn't get invovled in the affairs of men, elves etc, as Treebeard says to Merry and Pippin.


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