# Why do dragons like, hoard and guard gold?



## esrbl (Apr 8, 2020)

Why do they hoard/guard gold?


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## Erestor Arcamen (Apr 8, 2020)

> In Greek myth dragons were set by the gods to guard golden treasures. The reason being that dragons were the most fearsome monster and would deter would-be thieves.
> 
> The two most famous examples are the Dragon of the Golden Fleece (in the sacred grove of the god Ares), and the Dragon of the Golden Apples (in the sacred grove of the Hesperides).
> 
> ...


Source: lotr subreddit:


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## Olorgando (Apr 8, 2020)

Interestingly, there are not that many dragons mentioned in Norse / Anglo-Saxon sagas. There is the one that Beowulf faces at the end of his life, and Fafnir of the Völsunga saga which was also used as a part of the later German Nibelungenlied. I'll ignore the "Miðgarðsormr", that titanic sea serpent who encircles the world and is more an elemental force.

Apparently there is a tradition in Norse sagas / mythology that dragons guarding hoards weren't dragons in origin, but misers hoarding riches, and that this trait then caused them to turn into dragons (I'll take a guess that my usual suspect Tom Shippey wrote something about this).


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 8, 2020)

Somewhere here there's a thread where I brought up _derkomai, _the transfixing stare of the dragon, most evident in Glaurung (though apparent in Smaug also), of which _drakon _seems to be a derivative.

Erestor's quote raises a question in my mind about the origins of the ancient connection of gold and dragons: besides sight, which we know the Greeks considered an active, rather than passive, function, _derkomai _also meant "flash" or "gleam", terms long associated with gold; indeed, throughout the history of myth and literature, the "flash and gleam" of gold has attracted, even transfixed, the eyes of countless heroes and villains. I wonder if that might be what connected the two in the minds of the ancients? Hmm. . . 🤔

BTW, lest I be thought too "Greco-centric", I'll point out that _derkomai _is cognate with a Sanskrit word that I won't even attempt to reproduce.


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## Elthir (Apr 8, 2020)

Wow! Great answers! 

I was going to say 'cause Dragons are cool.


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## Olorgando (Apr 8, 2020)

Elthir said:


> I was going to say 'cause Dragons are cool.


"Cool" and their high-temperature "bad breath"?
I see massive contradictions in such an assessment ...


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 8, 2020)

Of course dragons are cool!


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## Elthir (Apr 8, 2020)

Concerning Bonnie (Ross Geller's new girlfriend)

Rachel "You said she was bald!"
Phoebe: "Was . . . was was was was was!"

But yes, Dragons are cool anyway 🐾


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 8, 2020)

Yeah, Man -- 'cause they like, hoard gold 'n stuff!


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## Elthir (Apr 8, 2020)

And wicked cool in Boston MA.

But back to the topic: technically Gwaihir should be spelled Gwaehir, but as even Tolkien used the former . . .


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## Olorgando (Apr 8, 2020)

Guys, I am unable to follow "Sindarin vs. Quenya" discussions, or whatever trend some threads here seem to be drifting into …


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## Erestor Arcamen (Apr 8, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Somewhere here there's a thread where I brought up _derkomai, _the transfixing stare of the dragon, most evident in Glaurung (though apparent in Smaug also), of which _drakon _seems to be a derivative.
> 
> Erestor's quote raises a question in my mind about the origins of the ancient connection of gold and dragons: besides sight, which we know the Greeks considered an active, rather than passive, function, _derkomai _also meant "flash" or "gleam", terms long associated with gold; indeed, throughout the history of myth and literature, the "flash and gleam" of gold has attracted, even transfixed, the eyes of countless heroes and villains. I wonder if that might be what connected the two in the minds of the ancients? Hmm. . . 🤔
> 
> BTW, lest I be thought too "Greco-centric", I'll point out that _derkomai _is cognate with a Sanskrit word that I won't even attempt to reproduce.



You mean the dragon in LOTR? 😬


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 8, 2020)

Don't remind me!


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## Erestor Arcamen (Apr 8, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Don't remind me!


You started it 😋

Also, here is a thread that discussed dragons and treasure further









Why does Smaug prefer "maidens"?


I've just started re-reading The Hobbit, and I noticed this in a section describing dragons: After that there were no dwarves left alive inside, and he took all their wealth for himself. Probably, for that is the dragons' way, he has piled it all up in a great heap far inside, and sleeps on it...




www.thetolkienforum.com


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## Elthir (Apr 8, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> Guys, I am unable to follow "Sindarin vs. Quenya" discussions, or whatever trend some threads here seem to be drifting into …




Both are Sindarin, but Gwaihir is purposely spelled wrong, like Aiglos instead of Aeglos for another example (IIRC). So in a sense the -ai- version here isn't "wrong" since Tolkien himself employed it . . . it's more like I had too much time on my hands this afternoon.

🐾


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## Olorgando (Apr 9, 2020)

Elthir said:


> Both are Sindarin, ...


See? See? I can't even follow that! 🥴


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## Elthir (Apr 9, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> See? See? I can't even follow that! 🥴




Actually since I've been going on memory here (and we saw what happened with Biffle and Bomble), I must confess that I can't recall if Tolkien "purposely" used -ai- in Gwaihir when the phonology required -ae- . . . or whether the phonology changed after the publication of _The Lord of the Rings._

Or something else. Ahem. Anyway the spellings for these names end up as Gwaehir, Aeglos, and Maedros. And since I can't even follow my own post, Ando is rightfully cutting me off in mid . . .


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## Olorgando (Apr 9, 2020)

Following ElthirAndo's dysfunctional "interaction" is hardly any better than Sindarin / Quenya philology! 
I must take countermeasures, like adopting a secret identity of my own. What a Gotham City billionaire playboy and some guy from an inert gas planet can do … you get my drift. 
I've been mulling over "Oloranto" as an alias ... not sure that it may bee too obvious, gives too much away … I'll get back to you about this. 🤔


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## Elthir (Apr 9, 2020)

May I suggest Gandolor, thus Gando for short 😇


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 9, 2020)

Orlando!


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## esrbl (Apr 8, 2020)

Why do they hoard/guard gold?


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## Elthir (Apr 9, 2020)

Orstring, Ornothing!


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## Olorgando (Apr 9, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Orlando!
> View attachment 6621


Do I (meaning my avatar) look like a friggin' Elf who had no business bopping around TH the movie?!? C'mon!


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## Olorgando (Apr 9, 2020)

Elthir said:


> May I suggest Gandolor, thus Gando for short 😇


IN other sites, that would not be an alias … nah, nah, not helpful, disguised fox.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 9, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> Elf


"Elf"?

Yer a Wizard, 'Arry!


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## Olorgando (Apr 9, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> "Elf"?
> 
> Yer a Wizard, 'Arry!


And Orlando B is what?!?!?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 9, 2020)

Ah -- I see where the confusion lies.

Wrong Orlando, Gando.


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## Olorgando (Apr 9, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Ah -- I see where the confusion lies.
> Wrong Orlando, Gando.


Hey, while I was in the US 1966-1975, I never got south of "Nu Joysee" (that place "The Boss" hails from).
So there is only one association that "Blooms" in my mind with Orlando. 😆


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## pippin le qer (Apr 23, 2020)

"Why do dragons hoard gold?
I think the hoard of gold was there first, in the Nibulingen saga giant Fafnir collects the Rheingold and it is his greed that turns him into a dragon. It is the greed that makes the dragon. Tolkien did of course knew this when he created his dragons. And I think to remember that there was an explenation given somewhere, that gold was the only sustance that was resistant against the internal heat of a dragon and the only substance the dragon could rest on. Making a dragon a very lethal version of the Princess on the pea.


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## CirdanLinweilin (Apr 23, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Orlando!
> View attachment 6621


...Bloom.





CL


I am so sorry. XD


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## Alice (Apr 24, 2020)

I agree, that's the symbol of their greed. Also the gold was an evil metal in this universe


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## Bellerophon (May 19, 2020)

Why do they hoard/guard gold? 

Peter Dickinson in his wonderful-tongue-in-cheek book 'The flight of Dragons' argues for the belief that dragons really existed. Clearly, he argues, an animal that big couldn't fly in the same way that birds or bats fly as the surface area of the wing could never be sufficient to carry such weight. Instead he proposes that they were lighter-than-air animals buoyed up by internal cavities filled with hydrogen and effectively 'swimming' through the air. They would need to safely dispose of excess hydrogen to prevent a potentially explosive build up in their caves. This was done by burning it off, hence the idea that they 'breath' fire. The method of ignition he proposed was chemical; dragons secrete a substance which ignites the excess hydrogen. 

I hope you're still following

Anyway this noxious secretion, often mistaken for blood in the old sagas reduced the land around the dragons lair to waste and would have left the dragon himself sleeping in a disgusting swamp unless he lined the floor with something chemically non-reactive, a big pile of gold and precious stones for example.

QED.


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## Aldarion (May 20, 2020)

What is interesting to note is that dragons display the same corrupting influence that One Ring does: see what Smaug's gold hoard does to Thorin.


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## Alcuin (May 20, 2020)

The corrupting influence of greed regarding a dragon’s horde also occurs in the Tale of the Children of Húrin, when Mîm the Petty-Dwarf settles on the horde of Glaurung in Nargothrond. I think dragon’s hordes inducing greed appears in classical literature, too, but no particular instances spring immediately to mind.


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## Sir Eowyn (May 20, 2020)

"The Faerie Queene," by Edmund Spenser, has as its Book I climax one of the greatest fights with a dragon ever penned. It must be read to be believed.

There's a memorable dragon scene in "The Voyage of the Dawn Treader," by C. S. Lewis. Also in "The Wizard of Earthsea," by Ursula K. Le Guin, and of course, Maleficient in Disney's "Sleeping Beauty" [1959].

Now, this is not political, but a statement on greed and miserliness in general... you could say that a dragon, hoarding what he has absolutely no practical use for, is a metaphor for greed being not only fierce but also, above a certain threshold, useless.

Oh, and who could forget Madam Mim, in "The Sword in the Stone" [1963]?


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## Alcuin (May 20, 2020)

I think it’s been discussed elsewhere on this forum that dragons hoarding and guarding gold is a metaphor for powerful, greedy people who seize the wealth of others and, as if they were dragons, lie upon their bed of gold, for which they have no use. Tolkien pushes the metaphor a little farther to make them ignorant as well:
Indeed they hardly know a good bit of work from a bad, though they usually have a good notion of the current market value; and they can’t make a thing for themselves, not even mend a little loose scale of their armor.​But they’re deadly if crossed, and like Smaug, will miss the least bit of their hoard. And of course, they also “eat” maidens, metaphorically that is. 

Jordan Peterson argues that descriptions of dragons are a combination of the physical characteristics of the things that ate our biological ancestors: snakes, large predatory birds, large lizards like crocodiles, and predatory mammals like lions.


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## Sir Eowyn (May 20, 2020)

D. H. Lawrence has much to say on them too, their symbolic nature, in his last book, "Apocalypse." Symbolic for the bad and good, of the fiery part of our natures.


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## Olorgando (May 21, 2020)

I find it interesting that in Chinese mythology, the dragon is viewed much more positively than in the west (but not always). But I must confess that I am utterly ignorant of any details of this Chinese mythology, this is second-hand information at best.


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## Aldarion (May 21, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> I find it interesting that in Chinese mythology, the dragon is viewed much more positively than in the west (but not always). But I must confess that I am utterly ignorant of any details of this Chinese mythology, this is second-hand information at best.



I actually wrote about it some time ago:








Western and Eastern dragons – mythology, similarities and differences


(repost from my old tumblr blog) Introduction First thing that has to be considered here is that image of dragons evolved through time. Much like Chinese dragons, Western dragons in Antiquity were …




militaryfantasy.home.blog


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