# Why does Mouth call him "Gandalf"?



## pgt (Jan 31, 2004)

Given how old Mouth is (and Gandalf) - at the black gate, I noticed that Lt. Mouth didn't call Gandalf by one of his his older or original names as opposed to a relatively common familiar name used by the free peoples of ME.

Thoughts?


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## Niniel (Jan 31, 2004)

What older name did you have in mind? Olorin was Gandalf's original name, but I doubt whether Mouth would know that. And it would be strange for him to use any of the names that were used only by specific peoples of ME, such as Incanus. And maybe he didn't want to use Mithrandir because it was too 'Elvish' for him. So Gandalf would be the obvious choice.


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## Flammifer (Jan 31, 2004)

As Niniel says, the MoS probably wouldn't have known that Gandalf was originally called Olorin (in Valinor), but it's true that he might not have used the name "Gandalf".



> _Faramir quoting Gandalf, The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers, "Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit"_
> 
> Many are my names in many countries, he said. Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkun to the Dwarves; Olorin I was in my youth in the West that is now forgotten, *in the South Incanus, in the North Gandalf*; to the East I go not.



There have been several debates about the identity of the MoS, and the land whence he came. Most people believe that the MoS might have been one of the Black Numenoreans, descended from them. This might mean that he would know Elvish, in which case he might call Gandalf "Mithrandir". However, Sauron fobade the use of the Elvish tongues.

But if the MoS is from the South in Harad, where the Black Numenoreans lived, he might call Gandalf "Incanus". But not enough information is given to us to decide for sure.


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## pgt (Feb 1, 2004)

Well let's not forget MoS 'namesake' - whatever Sauron would have referred to Gandalf as is likely exactly what MoS would have called him by. 

If I recall MoS doesn't even recall his own name so given that - is his own personal history all that important at the time of the battle in front of the gate? His present knowledge is largely courtesy of Sauron - so what would Sauron have known Gandalf by and referred to him as?


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## Flammifer (Feb 1, 2004)

That's a good point.........what would Sauron have called Gandalf?

Oh! I just thought of something! Saruman would have talked to Sauron via the palantir about Gandalf and who he is. That is probably why the MoS knows exactly who Gandalf is at the Morannon. We see that Saruman calls Gandalf "Gandalf", not Mithrandir or Olorin or anything. So because Saruman knows Gandalf as "Gandalf", so too Sauron would know him by this name, I guess, and therefore the MoS would also have used this name.


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## Beleg (Feb 1, 2004)

Sauron certainly won't call Gandalf by any of his elvish names; since they wouldn't have a name for him in black speech [Why is that?] they would inevitably turn towards his most common name. [In Westron.]


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## Grond (Feb 2, 2004)

Beleg said:


> Sauron certainly won't call Gandalf by any of his elvish names; since they wouldn't have a name for him in black speech [Why is that?] they would inevitably turn towards his most common name. [In Westron.]


Mithrandir = Elvish
Gandalf = Westron

The MoS would never have spoken Elvish (Sauron hated Elves). He wouldn't have spoken in the Black Speech to the parley (no one would have understood what he said) so the only logical name he would have called Gandalf would have been Gandalf, although I also think he called him greybeard as well. 

Cheers,

grond


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## Flammifer (Feb 2, 2004)

Yep that's right Grond:



> _The Mouth of Sauron, The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King, "The Black Gate Opens"_
> 
> 'So!' said the Messenger. 'Then thou art the spokesman, *old grey-beard?* Have we not heard of thee at whiles, and of thy wanderings, ever hatching plots and mischief at a safe distance? But this time thou hast stuck out thy nose too far, Master Gandalf; and thou shalt see what comes to him who sets his foolish webs before the feet of Sauron the Great.



So he does say it, but I think it's just used by the MoS to taunt Gandalf, not as any official name, as such.


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## Beleg (Feb 2, 2004)

_Originally posted by Grond_



> He wouldn't have spoken in the Black Speech to the parley (no one would have understood what he said) so the only logical name he would have called Gandalf would have been Gandalf, although I also think he called him greybeard as well.



The Mouth was addressing him in direct speech. He could easily have called Gandalf by his Dark-speech name if he so preffered; everyone would have understood perfectly well. 

or unless the mouth bore some regard for parley etiquette.


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## Grond (Feb 2, 2004)

Beleg said:


> _Originally posted by Grond_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually, the entire Red Book of Westmarch is a rendering of Westron into English (according to Tolkien himself). I'm sure the author's intent was simply to make is simple for readers to understand.


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## pgt (Feb 2, 2004)

Would not Sauron have known all the Istari long before his 'interactions' w/ Saruman via the Palantir? (or does Saruman's residence in Isengard and access to a Palentir go back 'that' far?) It would just stand to reason sooner or later is all considering their reason for being there. Didn't they (or some of them) drive him out of Dol Guldur (when he readily moved back to Barad Dur)?

============

Also anybody know off hand what approximate date Sauron is believed to have come into his Palantir (from Morgul?)? And Saruman moved into Orthanc and got his. Not that we will ever know precisely but I'm curious more or less when the 'potential' for their communicating started from. 

I guess the Stewards always had the same potential but it wasn't until Denethor... 

thanks,


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 3, 2004)

Minas Ithil fell to the enemy in TA 2002. That's when the palantir was captured.

Saruman moved into Orthanc in TA 2759.

Sauron was driven from Dol Guldur in TA 2941.

Therefore, communication between Sauron and Saruman can't have begun before TA 2941 at the earliest. Unless of course the palantir was carried over to Sauron in Dol Guldur as soon as it was captured, which for some reason I doubt was the case. Perhaps Saruman communicated with one of the Nazgul in Minas Morgul? But I don't believe evil had settled into him that long ago.



> _The History of Middle Earth X: Morgoth's Ring_
> If he thought about the Istari, especially Saruman and Gandalf, he imagined them as emissaries from the Valar, seeking to establish their lost power again and 'colonize' Middle-earth, as a mere effort of defeated imperialists (without knowledge or sanction of Eru). His cynicism, which (sincerely) regarded the motives of Manwe as precisely the same as his own, seemed fully justified in Saruman. Gandalf he did not understand. But certainly he had already become evil, and therefore stupid, enough to imagine that his different behaviour was due simply to weaker intelligence and lack of firm masterful purpose. He was only a rather cleverer Radagast - cleverer, because it is more profitable (more productive of power)to become absorbed in the study of people than of animals.


Sauron became aware of the Istari and learned some things about them (as is evident from the above quote) but that doesn't mean he (and therefore his minions) knew their many names and full histories.


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## jallan (Feb 7, 2004)

The name by which Gandalf was most commonly known in Gondor was _Mithrandir_ 'Grey Wanderer'. But Elvish in Gondor was used by the literate upper classes, somewhat like Greek in Rupublican Rome or French in medieval England. They gave themselves Elvish names for the most part. Common speech names would tend to sound a bit, well "common". A northern name like _Gandalf_ wiould sound a bit barbaric to someone of Gondor.

So the Mouth of Sauron naturally enough uses the less genteel name.


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