# Need a little help...



## Úlairi (Dec 19, 2003)

Yeah, it's rather frustrating asking this, but I can't seem to find a reference that I'm looking for in the Sil, it's for a thread that I am going to post in here a little later on. I need all info (quotes) on the regretfulness of the Valar on suppressing the Noldor, if there is such a reference. Any other quotes that you believe may contribute are also very welcome.

Thank you for your time.


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## Rangerdave (Dec 19, 2003)

> Yet they were not so. For they came from over the Sea out of the Uttermost West; though this was for long known only to Círdan, Guardian of the Third Ring, master of the Grey Havens, who saw their landings upon the western shores. Emissaries they were from Lords of the West, the Valar, who still took counsel for the governance of Middle-earth, and when the shadow of Sauron began first to stir again took this means of resisting him. For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies of as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years. And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed; whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men and Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt.



From 
Unfinished Tales: Part IV, section 2. _The Istari_ 





RD


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## Úlairi (Dec 19, 2003)

Thanks RD, are there any quotes for the Valar attempting to keep the Noldor in Valinor by showing their might? I looked for it in _The Flight of the Noldor_, but I couldn't find it. Perhaps I should look a little harder.


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## Rangerdave (Dec 19, 2003)

I don't think you will find any. 
This is the counter argumentt however.



> Thus at last the Teleri were overcome, and a great
> part of their mariners that dwelt in Alqualonde were wickedly
> slain. For the Noldor were become fierce and desperate, and the Teleri had less strength, and were armed mostly with light bows only. Then the Noldor drew away their white ships, and manned their oars as best they might, and rowed them north along the coast. And Olwe called upon Osse, but he came not; for he had been summoned to Valmar to the vigil and council of the gods; and it was not permitted by the Valar that the Flight of the Noldor should be hindered by force. But Uinen wept for the mariners of the Teleri; and the sea rose in wrath against the slayers, so that many of the ships were wrecked and those in them drowned. Of the Kin-slaying at Alqualonde more is told in that lament which is named Noldolante, The Fall of the Noldor, which Maglor made ere he was lost.
> 
> ...




I hope this helps
RD


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## Úlairi (Dec 20, 2003)

Already perceiving the argument I see.  There are some quotes that I have found to my advantage. Thanks for the help RD! Join the debate when it opens, but I don't believe I need to ask you that!


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## Inderjit S (Dec 20, 2003)

> The closing of Valinor against the rebel Noldor (who left it voluntarily and after warning) was in itself just. But, if we dare to attempt to enter the mind of the Elder King, assigning motives and finding faults, there are things to remember before we deliver a judgement. Manwë was the spirit of greatest wisdom and prudence in Arda. He is represented as having had the greatest knowledge of the Music, as a whole, possessed by any one finite mind; and he alone of all persons or minds in that time is represented as having the power of direct recourse to and communication with Eru. He must have grasped with great clarity what even we may perceive dimly: that it was the essential mode of the process of 'history' in Arda that evil should constantly arise, and that out of it new good should constantly come. One especial aspect of this is the strange way in which the evils of the Marrer, or his inheritors, are turned into weapons against evil. If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reestablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth, without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction. And in the meanwhile, Men, or the best elements in Mankind, shaking off his shadow, came into contact with a people who had actually seen and experienced the Blessed Realm.


 _Myths Transformed; HoME 10_


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## Úlairi (Dec 20, 2003)

Thanks Inderjit S, man, I have to read HoME!


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