# Gandalf the what??



## Firawyn (Nov 6, 2004)

In the hobbit I dont think it was ever mentioned if Gandalf was "the gray" or something else. Was Gandalf already "the gray" or did he get promoted between the hoobit and LotR? 

Besides, how do Wizards get promoted and how many ranks are there? It reminds me a bit of karate. 

Some pointers anyone??


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## Gothmog (Nov 6, 2004)

Gandalf did get "Promoted" between the Hobbit and LotR. In the Hobbit he was only a "wizard" while in the LotR he was an Istari one of the Maiar who were sent to ME in the form of Men.

As for "Ranks" I don't think there are Ranks. Saruman was considered "The Head of the Order of Istari" by Gandalf (and more so by Saruman himself), however, I would not put this forward as a "Rank" more of a title similar to that of Chairman.


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## Firawyn (Nov 6, 2004)

What of Rabagast(sp?) the Brown??


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## Gothmog (Nov 6, 2004)

There were five Istari mentioned. Saruman the White, Gandalf the Grey, Radagast the Brown and Two Blue Istari who went East and did not return. I do not think that the colours had to do with "Rank" as the only part that could indicate "Rank" is when Gandalf answers Gimli with


> Yes, I am white now,' said Gandalf. 'Indeed I am Saruman, one might almost say, Saruman as he should have been.


 However, it is not certain that this means that Sauman was of a 'Higher' rank than Gandalf. Another possibility is that it was Saruman that the Valar expected to be the leader of the resistance to Sauron.

So Gandalf's quote could well be re-phrased as "Saruman should have led the resistance but failed. I now take his place!" I think the change of Gandalf from "Grey" to "White" was symbolic of Saruman's fall rather than a "Promotion" of Gandalf in rank.


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## Firawyn (Nov 28, 2004)

I see. Thanks.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Dec 1, 2004)

When Gandalf became white, he became what the Valar expected of Saruman to be, and when Gandalf broke Saruman's staff, he was doing it under the authority of the Valar, though it isn't written. As for Ranks, there were no ranks. If you ever read "The Book of Unfinished Tales," by J.R.R. Tolkien, edited by Christopher Tolkien, there is a whole section dedicated to the Istari, or that is, when they were still in Valinor. Read this for more info. I hope all of this is correct, if not, anyone that knows about it, feel free to correct me.


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## Astaldo (Dec 1, 2004)

Just a small but important correction. The word is Valar and not Valor.


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## Niirewen (Dec 2, 2004)

I don't think there were ranks among the five Istari, but Saruman was the head of the White Council, until Gandalf took his place.


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## Gothmog (Dec 3, 2004)

But Saruman was only head of the White council because Gandalf did not want the position.


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## Forgotten Path (Dec 3, 2004)

Gothmog said:


> Gandalf did get "Promoted" between the Hobbit and LotR. In the Hobbit he was only a "wizard" while in the LotR he was an Istari one of the Maiar who were sent to ME in the form of Men.



I don't believe that Gandalf was promoted. I seem to recall reading in the appendixes of The L.R. that wizard was just a translation of the manninsh name given to the Istari (which is Elvish). So Istari and wizards are the same thing. If Gandalf wasn't an Istari in the Hobbit, what was he doing in ME, not having been sent there by the Valar? And to become a Valar, by your definition, he would have to return to Aman to be sent out again, and there is no evidence of this happening. Also, remember in the Hobbit that Gandalf led the assualt on Dol Guldur, therefore fighting against Souron and therefore and Istari. (That's the reason he coul not accompany Bilbo and the Dwarves through Mirkwood.)

The names of the blue wizards were Alatar and Pallando.

And just to clarify, the rank (if any) given to the Istari by the Valar was a completely different thing from the white council. The white council was formed by the wise in ME. There were elves as members of the white council (Elrond, Galadriel, and Cirdan, I believe). But, Gandalf did indeed turn down the position as head of the white council, even though Galadriel opposed his not being head.

I don't think there was any real rank given to the Istari by the Valar, but I am sure that some were favored over others. Some were not even originally going to go (like Radagast). All the info about that is given in the Book of Lost Tales in the section on the Istari.


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## Ithrynluin (Dec 3, 2004)

Forgotten Path, I'm pretty sure what Gothmog meant is that at the time of the writing of _The Hobbit_, Tolkien had not yet worked out the peculiarities and details that would become part of _The Lord of the Rings_ years later. Thus, Gandalf _was_ a 'mere' wizard in _The Hobbit_ and only 'became' an Istar (metaphorically speaking, since he always has been one, Tolkien just did not 'know' it at the time) in _The Lord of the Rings_.


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## Forgotten Path (Dec 3, 2004)

Yes, of course Ithrynluin. I was speaking strictly in historical terms. I believed he was as well because of the use of the word 'promoted'. I apoligize if he was not. 

I believe, dear sister Sabeen, that you got maybe more answering than you bargined for!  But, all the better for continuing your quest to become a Tolkienologist!


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## Gothmog (Dec 3, 2004)

Forggoten Path said:


> Yes, of course Ithrynluin. I was speaking strictly in historical terms. I believed he was as well because of the use of the word 'promoted'. I apoligize if he was not.


When I posted that comment I placed 'Promoted' in quotation marks to point out that I was not using it in the normal way. What I was refering to was, as Ithy said, the difference in the way Tolkien wrote of Gandalf in the Hobbit compared to LotR. In fact in the second half of the same post I stated


> As for "Ranks" I don't think there are Ranks. Saruman was considered "The Head of the Order of Istari" by Gandalf (and more so by Saruman himself), however, I would not put this forward as a "Rank" more of a title similar to that of Chairman.


So I thought it clear how I was using Promoted. I am sorry if my post was confusing.


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## Forgotten Path (Dec 6, 2004)

Thats perfectly alright, Gothmog. Sorry for the confusion! Maybe we should begin applying the terms outer-history and inner-history, where outer-history is the real life story of JRRT creating The L.R., and inner-history is the history in the books.
Inner-history: Gandalf was an Istari in the Hobbit and helped drive out Sauron when he was out Dol Guldur.
Outer-history: JRR Tolkien had not yet really decided what and who exactly Gandalf was at the time he wrote the Hobbit, and his position as an Istari was decided in The L.R.
Ahh, that's better.


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## Astaldo (Dec 7, 2004)

I think this is right. Maybe Prof. Tolkien didn't decide who will Gandalf be.


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## Eledhwen (Dec 9, 2004)

I think so too; but the Hobbit left a useful opening, in that Gandalf went off on bussiness of his own, leaving the company to complete the journey through Mirkwood and so on, without him. This diversion became the last meeting of the White Council and the cleansing of Dol Guldur; so in that sense, Gandalf was already Gandalf the Grey (in retrospect).


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