# Earendil, Tuor, and Dior



## Bard the Bowman (Oct 23, 2011)

I have been pondering a few things. #1, Earendil became immortal even though he was half-man. I know that the Valar granted him immortality, but read this excerpt from _The Silmarillion:

"_But in after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men."

So, if Earendil, a MAN, is granted immortality, why would this passage refer to Tuor as possibly being the only transformed man?

Then there is Dior. This guy is another true half-elf. I can understand Elrond and Elros getting a choice, but Dior is half man, half elf. Why is he automatically Eldar? The Valar had to grant immortality to Earendil, so why isn't Dior mortal? Is it possibly because he also has 1/4 Maiar in him? This has really stumped me.


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## Elthir (Oct 23, 2011)

I think you may have noted an answer to the first part already, as Earendil was half-elven. One could arguably raise a comment from the _Quenta Silmarillion_ of the 1930s and claim that he was technically mortal in any case, at least before he fared to Aman -- but blood-wise he was not a Man 'in a regular sense', or that is, not wholly one if descent and blood are emphasized. 

For a different example: _if_ I read things rightly, Tolkien's: 'The truth of this is not asserted' (Athrabeth commentary, Morgoth's Ring) is in reference to the _belief_ that the spirits of dead men also go to Mandos...

... directly following this statement Tolkien will then note that no living Man was allowed to go to Aman, and no fea of a dead man ever returned to life in Middle-earth -- he then notes that there are exceptions, and with respect to the exceptions, for example, he notes that Earendil was half-elven and not allowed to return to Middle-earth, and finally: 'Beren returned to actual life, for a short time, but he was not actually seen again by living Men.'


So, as I read this, Tolkien will here note the distinction that Earendil is half-elven, technically not a Man within the context of this explanation -- in other words, his half-elven nature seems at least _part_ of why he is an exception with respect to the notion that no living Man was allowed to go to Aman (plus he had a Silmaril and so on).


Perhaps similarly Tolkien will (in a letter) note that Arwen is not an Elf, but one of the Half-elven -- even though she is 'Elvish enough' to be included (internally) as part of one of the famed three unions of the Eldar and the Edain.


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## Bard the Bowman (Oct 23, 2011)

Let me just bring up the comment you spoke of. In reference to his arrival to the Undying Lands, Mandos says, "Shall Mortal Man step living upon the undying lands, and yet live?" 

This backs up your statement about spirits of dead men going to Mandos and Earendil's mortality. I guess it also means Tuor didn't make it to Valinor.

I don't question Eldarion's mortality, since his mother was about 1/6 or so Man. 

I can accept the fact that Earendil was an exception through the grace of the Valar, but that still leaves Dior.


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## Elthir (Oct 23, 2011)

And also, Ulmo's answer here is interesting, injecting the notion of blood into the consideration...

'Mandos spoke concerning his fate; and he said: 'Shall mortal Man step living upon the undying lands, and yet live?' But Ulmo said: 'For this he was born into the world. And say unto me: whether is he Earendil Tuor's son of the line of Hador, or the son of Idril, Turgon's daughter, of the Elven-house of Finwe?' And Mandos answered: 'Equally the Noldor, who went wilfully into exile, may not return hither.' 

So Mandos does not quibble about Earendil's descent, but notes he should not be in the Undying Lands even considering his Elven heritage.


Incidentally, the comment I referred to from the _Quenta Silmarillion_ of the 1930s was not taken up into the constructed Silmarillion (1977) for whatever reason -- and it basically notes that all those of mortal blood, in any measure, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them.


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## Bard the Bowman (Oct 23, 2011)

Let us look ahead to _The Return of the King, _when Gandalf is talking with Pippin in Minas Tirith about Denethor. He says,

"...by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him;"

Could this be something of the same with Dior, or possibly Earendil, that the Elven blood runs, truer, if you will, through.


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## Fingon69 (Jan 4, 2012)

I find the topic of the half-elves very interesting, if anything because it's really confusing.

Earendil and Elwing were granted the right to choose which race they wanted to belong to, so were their children, that's why Elrond and Elros could choose as well.

I don't believe the choice was extended to the following generations, it's clear that Elros's descendants weren't given a choice and I don't believe Elrond's children were either.

Arwen did not actually choose based on that, she said she made the choice of Luthien, but I am not even sure if it was that or simply her choice was not to go to Aman. It's said in the Appendix of Lord of the Ring that she lived for a long time after the dead of Aragorn and her fate is not truely know.

More confusing are the cases of Dior and Tuor. Was Dior a man or an elf? His father was a man and his mother was a mortal when she conveived him. Yet, if he were a man then Elwing would be a mortal, not a half-elf. And Dior did not have the choice as it was given to Earendil, Elwing and their children, and that was after Dior's death.

Since Dior died young, there is no way to know if he was an elf or a man, I don't think there is an answer and Tolkien probably didn't give much thought to the matter.

As per Tuor, it's the strangest of all, he was fully a man, why would he be granted a place among the elves? Idril was and elf princess, but still not high enough to give him that privilege. Why if being Idril's husband gave him that it didn't happen the same with Beren? The explanation might be that Luthien had to become mortal to save Beren, who was already dead and Mandos or Manwe did not have the power to bring him back except if Luthien made the sacrifice, the power to bring Beren back came from Iluvatar, not the Valar.

Yet, the marriage to Idril does not seem enough, maybe a reward for his services? but many other men gave great services and didn't get inmortality.

But Tuor was clearly special, he was choosen by Ulmo to be his messenger, and once in Gondolin, he was immediately loved by Idril and accepted by Turgon. why was Tuor so special? I don't know, it's not explained anywhere.

I know that the Silmarillion doesn't expressely said that Tuor was accepted or even reached Aman but that it was sung later, but my feeling from it is that it was indeed the truth.

Even more strange, Gimli, it's also said he was accepted in Aman because of Galadriel.


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## Elthir (Jan 4, 2012)

> I don't believe the choice was extended to the following generations, it's clear that Elros's descendants weren't given a choice and I don't believe Elrond's children were either.



But Appendix A notes: 'But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed, to pass with him from the circles of the world, or if they remained to become mortal and die in Middle-earth.'

That Elrond's children were also given the choice has given rise to much discussion over the years, actually.




> Arwen did not actually choose based on that, she said she made the choice of Luthien, but I am not even sure if it was that or simply her choice was not to go to Aman. It's said in the Appendix of Lord of the Ring that she lived for a long time after the dead of Aragorn and her fate is not truely know.



I think it rather reveals: 'and there is her green grave, until the world is changed' Also Tolkien revised this passage a bit for the second edition, and Hammond and Scull note (with which I agree) in their Reader's Companion that the new passage seems to suggest that it was less than a year after Aragorn's death that Arwen surrendered her life.


The subject of Dior can be a bit confusing, or much debated, but in the last (or latest) reference I'm aware of so far, at least, Dior relates that he is the first of the _Peredhil _(in a text called _The Problem of Ros_).


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