# Lots of silver, not much gold



## Goldberry (Mar 18, 2002)

Did anyone notice that the most precious of metals in LoTR is silver. Very little is made of gold.

Silver:
1. The green elfstone is set in silver
2. The star of elendil is set in a silver fillet
3. In Rivendell, Arwen wears "a cap of silver lace", and her dress had "a girdle of leaves wrought in silver"
4. Arwen's evenstar gem is set in silver
5. The sceptre of Annuminas is a silver rod
6. The crown of the kings of Gondor is all white, and "the wings on either side were wrought of pearl and silver"
7. Mithril mail shirt, mithril being exceedingly valuable
8. The wood box Galadriel gives Sam has a silver rune on the lid
9. Boromir's horn was bound with silver
10.The ancient horn Eowyn gives Merry is "wrought all of fair silver"
11.Boromir wore a "collar of silver in which a single white stone was set"
12.Elrond wore a circlet of silver upon his head


Gold
1. The one ring
2. The belt Galadriel gives Boromir
3. The elven ring worn by Elrond

Silver and gold:
1. Merry & Pippin's belts from Galadriel, silver with a clasp like a golden flower
2. The sheath Galadriel gives Aragorn for Anduril, has silver and gold leaves on it 

Any ideas why Tolkien would have used silver more than gold?


----------



## Eonwe (Mar 18, 2002)

um I don't know why more silver than gold.

Mithril I thought was supposed to be aluminum. ??


----------



## Goldberry (Mar 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Eonwe _
> *um I don't know why more silver than gold.
> 
> Mithril I thought was supposed to be aluminum. ?? *



If Mithril is aluminum, then I have an image of Frodo wrapped up like leftovers!


----------



## Harad (Mar 18, 2002)

Mithril is a special alloy of aluminium and magnausium, tempered with Queen Titanium. It is lighter than buckeyballs and stronger than orcsweat.


----------



## Beorn (Mar 18, 2002)

Perhaps silver was used to imitate mithril, as brass on cheap jewelery?


----------



## Grond (Mar 18, 2002)

Another name for mithril was truesilver because it had the color and lustre of silver but the hardness of adamant or diamond. Maybe since there was little truesilver left in the world, something that imitated it would be valued more highly than gold. Just a thought.


----------



## Goldberry (Mar 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Grond _
> *Another name for mithril was truesilver because it had the color and lustre of silver but the hardness of adamant or diamond. Maybe since there was little truesilver left in the world, something that imitated it would be valued more highly than gold. Just a thought. *



That is a good point. I wonder if Tolkien also liked the "whiteness" of silver, equating white with goodness.



> _Originally posted by Harad _
> *Mithril is a special alloy of aluminium and magnausium, tempered with Queen Titanium. It is lighter than buckeyballs and stronger than orcsweat. *



And more pleasing to the olfactory organ than orcsweat.


----------



## Bragollach (Mar 19, 2002)

A thought: those oft praised stars are silver in color, not gold. A twice removed nod to Elbereth?


----------



## Mormegil (Mar 19, 2002)

Perhaps more Silver than Gold was used because there was not much Gold to be mined. 
Maybe the people of ME liked the look of Silver more than Gold.


----------



## Zale (Mar 20, 2002)

I like silver better than gold (it's less expensive!). Perhaps it's because gold is more gaudy, & silver is modest. Bragollach: very good point, that's probably it.


----------



## Dhôn-Buri-Dhôn (Mar 20, 2002)

Maybe sometimes when referring to silver, they are really speaking of mithril. After all, it had the color of silver but was much rarer and more precious. It was also called "truesilver".

And because it was the most highly prized metal, "ordinary" silver may have been valued for its resemblance to mithril.


----------



## Camille (Mar 20, 2002)

Or maybe Professor Tolkien liked silver more than gold.
Actually I prefer silver


----------



## Grond (Mar 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Donnie B. _
> *Maybe sometimes when referring to silver, they are really speaking of mithril. After all, it had the color of silver but was much rarer and more precious. It was also called "truesilver".
> 
> And because it was the most highly prized metal, "ordinary" silver may have been valued for its resemblance to mithril. *


Err... Ummm... Look six post above yours and you will see something that might look a little familiar.


----------



## Eonwe (Mar 20, 2002)

ok just to explain my aluminum thingy, which some of you may think is silly 

I'm not an expert in metallurgy (that word sounds like a burp)

I read that in Europe aluminum was incredibly rare, and since it could be easily beaten into items of armor and sculpture and of course is quite hard with little weight (try lifting an aluminum rim vs. steel! OUCH!) it was treasured above Gold. I think Napoleon had some items made out of it. And of course, perhaps the dwarves knew how to anodize it (making it much harder) LOL!  OK nerd engineer joke, just trust me its funny.

Anyway wearing chain mail made of aluminum vs. steel would be a huge weight difference and would provide nearly the same protection against projectiles, swords, etc.

oh well...


----------



## Beleg Strongbow (Mar 20, 2002)

Elvesn like siver more dont they?


----------



## Paul (Mar 29, 2004)

It seemed to me that gold was something that corrupted like the one ring but the silmarils seemed to be a bright silver, so who knows.


----------



## Lantarion (Mar 29, 2004)

Well the Silmarils weren't silver actually.. It never was 'discovered' what material Fëanor used to make them.
But I've noticed this gold/silver situation often before.. And although a lot of great suggestions have been offered, I think another one would be that gold represented Aman, a sort of Heaven, something otherwordly and mythically Edenic; whereas silver, more common and perhaps less visually appealing than gold (which had a shining yellow colour, as opposed to simple shining grey), represented Middle-earth and all mortal lands because it was less valuable. 
If I remember correctly, the domes of the buildings of Tirion were of gold (mayb they weren't though..), whereas all things Númenórean are often connected to silver and not gold. Here the contrast would be in terms of mortality vs immortality. 

Just some thoughts (what an old thread!!).


----------



## Ithrynluin (Mar 29, 2004)

In Middle-Earth gold was always more susceptible to being tainted I think, as opposed to silver. I always associated silver with elves (as well as Laurelin, the elder, silver tree of Valinor; and the Moon which arose before the Sun), and gold with humans who were always more liable to be corrupted just like gold (plus, wasn't the sun the sign of the inevitable and approaching Dominion of Men?). I guess there is some subtle connection between all this and the reason why the Elves associate themselves with silver more than with gold, and prefer making artifacts out of/with silver.


----------



## Ravenna (Mar 30, 2004)

ithrynluin said:


> In Middle-Earth gold was always more susceptible to being tainted I think, as opposed to silver. I always associated silver with elves (as well as Laurelin, the elder, silver tree of Valinor; and the Moon which arose before the Sun), and gold with humans who were always more liable to be corrupted just like gold (plus, wasn't the sun the sign of the inevitable and approaching Dominion of Men?). I guess there is some subtle connection between all this and the reason why the Elves associate themselves with silver more than with gold, and prefer making artifacts out of/with silver.



I think ithrynluin may be on to something here. the silver tree was the elder of the two, and was also the only one of which any resemblance remained within ME, or as far as I am aware, in the whole of Arda. But if I may venture to correct. It was Telperion who was the silver tree, Laurelin was golden.


----------



## Gandalf The Grey (Mar 30, 2004)

The quote below is taken from a fascinating article at http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/55744. 

The article specifically mentions that silver, unlike gold, does not have a tendency towards evil in Middle Earth. 




> Why gold? I've had that question put to me a few times now. Where on Earth did I get the idea that dragons might draw power from gold, or, more specifically, that there was something special about gold when it came to magic?
> 
> Well, I neglected to mention one crucial paragraph when I was citing Tolkien's essay (which, by the way, Christopher Tolkien called "Notes on motives in the Silmarillion" -- the Morgoth-element paragraphs were lifted from near the end of section ii).
> 
> ...


----------



## grendel (Mar 30, 2004)

That was very interesting, Gandalf, and informative... and in true LotR nit-picking fashion, I would just point out that gold is, in fact, THE best electrical (and heat) conductor, better than silver, copper, or aluminum. That's why it is used in connectors for electronic equipment, among other things.


----------



## Gandalf The Grey (Mar 30, 2004)

I will bow to your expertise when it comes to electrical lore, *grendel.* 

Thank you for teaching me something new. Well met, by the way. 

-- Gandalf


----------



## Aglarband (Mar 30, 2004)

Or maybe there is just more silver in Middle-earth than gold...


----------



## jimmyboy (Apr 2, 2004)

> "...Morgoth's power was disseminated throughout Gold, if nowhere absolute (for he did not create Gold) it was nowhere absent. (It was this Morgoth-element in matter, indeed, which was a prerequisite for such 'magic' and other evils as Sauron practised with it and upon it.)"


You beat me to it, Gandalf!


----------



## Gandalf The Grey (Apr 2, 2004)

Well I'm glad you've joined in, *jimmyboy,* 

for as the old saying goes, "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em."

... Hail and well met. 

* bows an introductory greeting *


----------



## Ingwë (Jan 5, 2006)

I prefer gold but maybe Tolkien prefers silver  
There are many silver things but the most important are of gold and silver. 
Lets look at the sword... Narsil! It contains *Nar* and _*Sil  *_The Sun is A*nar* and the Moon is I*sil. *It's that great? Gold and Silver together against the One Ring and the Dark lord. And it's the sword that cut Sauron's finger! 
And the Two Trees. Laurelin and Telperion. They are Gold and Silver. 
The Sun and The Moon - once again Gold and Silver. 
So I think that the most important subjects contain gold and silver. Not only gold nor only silver.


----------



## Noldor_returned (Jan 5, 2006)

Perhaps there was more silver than gold? Whatever they were using would have to be mined, and most of the mining (if not all) was done by the dwarves. I think I recall reading somewhere that most of the dwarf kingdoms were rich in silver, with little gold. The dwarves would have traded the silver, or sold it, as they could mine more. They would be reluctant to use gold, as it was limited. However, in The Hobbit, during Inside Information, it describes the treasures in the Mountain. It mentions "gold wrought and unwrought...silver..." And wasn't the cup Bilbo stole golden, or am I mistaken?
So when you say that silver is more precious, I think it is more a case of it's more common, making gold more valuable. Mithril would, of course, remain beyond value.


----------



## Erestor Arcamen (Jan 6, 2006)

it may not be relevant, but Tolkien had a poem "All that is Gold does not glitter." I know that this is a prophecy of Aragorn becoming King and all, but he chose to use gold. It seems to me that in the title of this, Tolkien was saying, Gold is worth a lot but not everything that is worth as much as gold looks like gold, i don know relevant or not, just thought i'd bring it up


----------



## Wonko The Sane (Jan 20, 2006)

A few things I'd like to bring up...

1) The association of silver with twilight, starlight, and moonlight. The elves were waning, they were coming to the end of their season, the twilight of their time on ME. Perhaps the predominance of silver is a reflection of this.

2) Gold IS used extensively, but instead of being used in material possessions it is used in the description of the landscape, notably of the Shire, Lothlorien, The Old Forest, Rivendell, etc. In the same way that silver is related to the twilight of the day/night, gold is related to the autumn of the season. 

Also, Goldberry is a notable wearer of gold, few others wear it in that way, but she is the living representation of the world around her, of nature, of the seasons, and she is clad in a belt of gold "shaped like a chain of flag lillies set with the pale-blue eyes of forget-me-nots." And gold is used in other contexts as well such as in the colour of hair (Galadriel and Goldberry).

Furthermore the craft of the elves seems to be inclined towards working in silver and the craft of man to working in gold. Gold is seen as corruptible in the stories, while silver (or truesilver at least) to be uncorruptible, purer, and perhaps in that way lends itself to Elf craft a bit better?

I don't know. I just make it up as I go along.


----------



## Hammersmith (Jan 20, 2006)

I can't helo thinking that there's an existing connection in mythology between silver and certain kinds of magic. The moon itself was said to be silver in many European cultures, part of the superlunary and perfect world. That's why silver bullets kill werewolves (who have their own connection to the moon). That Tolkien made his own moon out of silver suggests that he could have been aware of this train of thought.

My own more practical thoughts would be that if one is going to make armour or weapons for a lord, gold is not the best of the rich elements to choose from.


----------



## Wonko The Sane (Jan 24, 2006)

It's true that armour made of gold would be rubbish, but the decorative items are often not gold either.

And can I just say that if Mithril is aluminium then Frodo WOULD have died in Moria.

I think that your (Hammersmith's) point about the moon and magic and the colour silver is a good one. The elves are often seen to be glowing with a white or silver light as well, which may highlight the power of that magic.


----------



## Noldor_returned (Jan 24, 2006)

I may regret saying this, but isn't the one Ring gold? Or has someone mentioned that?


----------



## Thorondor_ (Jan 25, 2006)

In the Shadow of the past, the ring is described as looking "to be made of pure and solid gold"; the same description (beautiful golden ring) appears when Deagol finds the ring, and Frodo believes it is gold too. Yet when Gandalf says that Frodo's fire couldn't melt "ordinary gold", it is one more clue (if needed) that this isn't our usual metal.


----------



## Wonko The Sane (Jan 25, 2006)

Thorondor_ said:


> In the Shadow of the past, the ring is described as looking "to be made of pure and solid gold"; the same description (beautiful golden ring) appears when Deagol finds the ring, and Frodo believes it is gold too. Yet when Gandalf says that Frodo's fire couldn't melt "ordinary gold", it is one more clue (if needed) that this isn't our usual metal.



Is this because it's gold tempered with some other metal, or because it's gold forged with Sauron's power? What is it that makes it so special/strong?


----------



## Thorondor_ (Jan 25, 2006)

Well, since we know that Sauron poured a lot of his power in it and that not even Ancalagon could harm his ruling ring, I would say that it would have to be first and foremost Sauron's power that makes the ring as a whole special, not its materials.


----------



## Wonko The Sane (Jan 25, 2006)

Thorondor_ said:


> Well, since we know that Sauron poured a lot of his power in it and that not even Ancalagon could harm his ruling ring, I would say that it would have to be first and foremost Sauron's power that makes the ring as a whole special, not its materials.



Is there any reason to believe it's made of anything other than gold and Sauron's power and will?


----------



## Noldor_returned (Jan 26, 2006)

Your choice.


----------



## Wonko The Sane (Jan 27, 2006)

Noldor_returned said:


> Your choice.



Is it? Or is there more to it than that? In my experience there's always more to it than that.


----------



## Thorondor_ (Jan 29, 2006)

A rather interesting quote concerning the elven interest in moon (and relatedly -silver) is found in Of the sun and moon and the hiding of Valinor, Silmarillion:


> Isil the Sheen the Vanyar of old named the Moon, flower of Telperion in Valinor; and Anar the Fire-golden, fruit of Laurelin, they named the Sun. But the Noldor named them also Rana, the Wayward, and Vasa, the Heart of Fire, that awakens and consumes; for the Sun was set as a sign for the awakening of Men and the waning of the Elves, but the Moon cherishes their memory.


----------



## Wonko The Sane (Jan 29, 2006)

Thorondor_ said:


> A rather interesting quote concerning the elven interest in moon (and relatedly -silver) is found in Of the sun and moon and the hiding of Valinor, Silmarillion:



How do you interpret that quote? The Moon cherishes their memory...so does this suggest, as I suggested earlier, that the moon and the colour silver is symbollic of the former glory of the elves and signifies that they are not at the autumn of their time on ME? O


----------



## Thorondor_ (Jan 30, 2006)

> so does this suggest, as I suggested earlier, that the moon and the colour silver is symbollic of the former glory of the elves


Yes, that is how I interpret it..


----------



## Annaheru (Jan 30, 2006)

To comment on several of the theories voiced:

1. As someone who makes chainmail I feel very confident in stating that Mithril is either Titanium or a metal unknown to modernity. 

Reasoning: 
*Aluminum*, while light and strong enough, develops a black film- Bilbo's coat never displays this tendency at any time, and the idea is inconsistent with the overall Mithril description.
*Magnesium* is stronger than aluminum but unfortunately has that potential for burning- not exactly the property we're looking for.
*Ilconel* stays clean in enviroments that corrode surgical stainless (steel), but it's an alloy, and while it can't be entirely ruled out on that basis, my understanding has always been that Mithril is a single substance.
*Niobium* fits in the same catagory as Ilconel.
*Titanium *fits the bill. Non corrosive, extremely strong, lighter than steel, Ti seems to be the best fit.
(someone mentioned gold armour being worthless earlier- remember Thorin, _gold-plated_ armour has a long history, and who knows whether the dwarves couldn't make the stuff stronger? just a thought)

2. I like the star theory of silver, for all the reasons already mentioned. Moreover silver seems to have a softer visual "expression" than gold- a milder feel to the metal. It seems to match the Elves, especially the Noldor with their pale features, dark hair, and sea-grey eyes.

3. The Morgoth and gold connection intrigues me- if you remember from Sil Morgoth coveted earth after he filled it with fire, and no metal bears a closer resemblance to fire than gold.


----------



## elrilgalia (Feb 17, 2006)

sorry... to go back right to the original question that Silver is more valuable than gold because its in more things ...

doesnt that mean that actually gold is _more_ valuable ??? BECAUSE it wasnt used as often, and perhaps couldnt be used as often ???

Were all the Rings forged in gold ??? Nenya wasn't I think ? 

(apologies if some of this has been answered... I hope ive read most replies..)


----------



## Uminya (Feb 17, 2006)

Silver is a lighter metal than gold and is also more abundant in nature. Finding silver is also a good sign that one will find gold, as the deposits often occur near one another.

As for what mithril is, it can't be any metal that occurs in our own, real world. Aluminum and titanium require vast mounts of processing and technology to be produced, and even after that they are generally mixed with other alloys to make them usable in applications such as aircraft or bicycles. Titanium is almost impossible to forge, and could never be used practically to produce mail or weapons. Aluminum is extremely weak and would be totally inadequate for making anything needed to take a beating (unless in alloy form).

Mithril was just a magical form of silver, imagined by a man who specialized in philology, not metallurgy or chemistry  The Ring was gold imbued with the spirit of a Maia and filled with his terrible will. Also magical, same reasons.

Science ≠ Tolkien


----------



## Noldor_returned (Feb 17, 2006)

However, although normal science would apply, does it to Middle-Earth. A figment of someone's imagination does not necessarily follow normal rules.


----------

