# King Bladorthin



## Wyvern (Nov 30, 2001)

*King Bladorthin [Merged]*

Hey, I was just rereading some of The Hobbit and I came across a puzzle that has eluded me before.

King Bladorthin.
I know that Bladorthin was the name of the wizard in the manuscript of The Hobbit, before it was changed to Gandalf.

After some rereading and much searching I cannot find anything on King Bladorthin's history. I know that the spears that are found in Smaug's horde were made for his armies, as are all of the armour and weaponry there. The Hobbit reads:
"From that the talk turned to the horde itself and to the things that Thorin and Balin remembered. They wondered if they were still lying there unharmed in the hall below: the spears made for the armies of the great King Bladorthin (long since dead),"

This is the chapter "Inside Infomation". 

So if anyone has any fragment of info concerning Bladorthin, please tell me.


Wyvern

EDIT: This should probally go into The Hobbit board, but the hobbit contains no infomation on Bladorthin so I asked here


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## Walter (Dec 1, 2001)

In Foster's TCGTME I find:

_*Bladorthin* A King, probabaly an Elf, who ordered spears from the Dwarves of Erebor but died before they were deliverd. He died sometime between TA 1999 and 2770._

All given page references there concern only The Hobbit, so it seems that Bladorthin hasn't been mentioned elsewhere...

...nor it is said whether the spears have been paid in advance or not...


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## Lantarion (Dec 1, 2001)

Yes, I think we've stablished that he was a King . But of what land? And what war were they talking about, and why would he order spears? I think this is just another "fact", as was stated at another thread, which was left in the Hobbit.


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## gate7ole (Jan 20, 2003)

From the chapter 12: Inside Information of Hobbit, we read:


> the spears that were made for the armies of the great King Bladorthin (long since dead), each had a thrice-forged head and their shafts were inlaid with cunning gold, but they were never delivered or paid for.


Bladorthin is the only King mentioned in the books whose Kingdom is not placed in a known region. He doesn’t seem to come from any of the known kingdoms of Men (e.g Dale, Northmen). Does anybody have an idea about his identity?


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## Gothmog (Jan 20, 2003)

I haven't been able to find any information on this king in HoME, UF Tales, Letters or even The Advertures of Tom Bombadil.

Sorry. Hope someone else has more luck.


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## gate7ole (Jan 20, 2003)

I knew that there was no info on the books on the subject! I just hoped that I had missed a point. But I believe that we have enough hints to try to speculate and reach to the best conclusion about the subject. Personally I have an idea on the topic, which I will post later, if some others also show interest.


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## Turgon (Jan 20, 2003)

This raises some interesting questions about Bladorthin's identity: Bladorthin 

Had a quick scan on Google - there are thousands of speculations - just goes to show that no line of inquiry is to obscure for the good old Tolkien Buff eh?

Originally I had hope the search would reveal a real world origin for the name - thought it sounded quite Hunnic - but apparently it's an early form of Elvish, so what do I know!?! I'd love to hear your speculations though Gate7ole... are you on to something? Keeping your fellow TTFers in the dark?...


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## Gothmog (Jan 20, 2003)

I would certainly be interested in hearing your idea about it.


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## gate7ole (Jan 20, 2003)

The facts:
Bladorthin was a great King that had ordered from the dwarves of Erebor to make for his armies valuable spears. He never got them (or paid for them), since he apparently died prematurely before acquiring them.
The Kingdom of Erebor was founded in 1999, lasted until 2210 and again from 2590 to 2770. This is two periods of about two hundred years. Especially during the second period, we read from the Appentix of LOTR:
[quoote]and he and his folk prospered and became rich, and they had the friendship of all Men that dwelt near. For they made not only things of wonder a beauty but weapons and armour of great worth.
the Northmen who lived between Celduin (River Running) and Carnen (Redwater) became strong and drove back all enemies from the East; [/quote]

The speculation:
The above are the only hints about the possible identity of the king Bladorthin. Robert Foster says that he is probably an Elf. I’m strongly opposed to this, since all major Elven-Kingdoms were mentioned by Tolkien and especially if they had communication with the dwarves of Erebor, that played an important role in the War of the Ring. Being a king of the Avari, is also very doubtful for the reason that they should have come in some communication with the Silvan Elves (and probably helped them in their wars). Being a dwarf is out of the question, so he could only be a Man.
Also, from the quote we get the impression that not only the king perished, but his kingdom as well, probably losing the battle to which these spears were intented to be used. The best procedure to follow is to search the Tale of Years about what happened during the two periods of Erebor’s foundation. First about the second period, we see a renewal of orcish invasions to Eriador. This may imply that some enemy of theirs fell and they came unhindered even to the Shire. Could it be the Lossoth? I doubt it, since they were very secretive and also poor.
Then we have the first period, where Sauron leaves Dol Guldur and goes to the East and the Watchful Peace starts. This happenes in 2063. After 150 years Thorin I leaves Erebor. And Sauron returns after another 200 years. Certainly Sauron went to the East to organize the Easterlings. He probably had to deal with their civil wars and the wars with the less evil kingdoms. This last one is what concerns me. It cannot be that all the mannish peoples of the East were evil. There must have been some good, that Sauron destroyed. Such a kingdom must have been the one in discussion. King Bladorthin realized that a great enemy had arrived and helped the other Easterlings. He ordered spears from the Dwarves, but they were never needed, since the defeat was quick (natural, since Sauron had no match there).
The actual place of the kingdom should be quite close to Erebor, probably just above Rhun. This place not only explains the possible wars they might have, the communication with Erebor, but also it explains why Tolkien didn’t mention it, since it is outside the “map” of LOTR. It is quite possible that this kingdom was once great and even ruled a great area, reaching Mirkwood. With the arrival of the Dúnedain, they probably retreated understanding their inferiority. But they were never hostile to them. On the contrary, they must have prevented many evil tribes to attack Rhovanion and Gondor. Maybe at the times of the Wainriders, they were already declining and couldn’t confront them.
That was just my thought, not very scholarly given.

PS. I see some similarities with the link Turgon provided. I hadn’t read it before, but I’m glad that someone else thought the way I did.


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## childoferu (Jul 30, 2009)

gate7ole said:


> The facts:
> Bladorthin was a great King that had ordered from the dwarves of Erebor to make for his armies valuable spears. He never got them (or paid for them), since he apparently died prematurely before acquiring them.
> The Kingdom of Erebor was founded in 1999, lasted until 2210 and again from 2590 to 2770. This is two periods of about two hundred years. Especially during the second period, we read from the Appentix of LOTR:
> [quoote]and he and his folk prospered and became rich, and they had the friendship of all Men that dwelt near. For they made not only things of wonder a beauty but weapons and armour of great worth.
> the Northmen who lived between Celduin (River Running) and Carnen (Redwater) became strong and drove back all enemies from the East;


 
The speculation:
The above are the only hints about the possible identity of the king Bladorthin. Robert Foster says that he is probably an Elf. I’m strongly opposed to this, since all major Elven-Kingdoms were mentioned by Tolkien and especially if they had communication with the dwarves of Erebor, that played an important role in the War of the Ring. Being a king of the Avari, is also very doubtful for the reason that they should have come in some communication with the Silvan Elves (and probably helped them in their wars). Being a dwarf is out of the question, so he could only be a Man.
Also, from the quote we get the impression that not only the king perished, but his kingdom as well, probably losing the battle to which these spears were intented to be used. The best procedure to follow is to search the Tale of Years about what happened during the two periods of Erebor’s foundation. First about the second period, we see a renewal of orcish invasions to Eriador. This may imply that some enemy of theirs fell and they came unhindered even to the Shire. Could it be the Lossoth? I doubt it, since they were very secretive and also poor.
Then we have the first period, where Sauron leaves Dol Guldur and goes to the East and the Watchful Peace starts. This happenes in 2063. After 150 years Thorin I leaves Erebor. And Sauron returns after another 200 years. Certainly Sauron went to the East to organize the Easterlings. He probably had to deal with their civil wars and the wars with the less evil kingdoms. This last one is what concerns me. It cannot be that all the mannish peoples of the East were evil. There must have been some good, that Sauron destroyed. Such a kingdom must have been the one in discussion. King Bladorthin realized that a great enemy had arrived and helped the other Easterlings. He ordered spears from the Dwarves, but they were never needed, since the defeat was quick (natural, since Sauron had no match there).
The actual place of the kingdom should be quite close to Erebor, probably just above Rhun. This place not only explains the possible wars they might have, the communication with Erebor, but also it explains why Tolkien didn’t mention it, since it is outside the “map” of LOTR. It is quite possible that this kingdom was once great and even ruled a great area, reaching Mirkwood. With the arrival of the Dúnedain, they probably retreated understanding their inferiority. But they were never hostile to them. On the contrary, they must have prevented many evil tribes to attack Rhovanion and Gondor. Maybe at the times of the Wainriders, they were already declining and couldn’t confront them.
That was just my thought, not very scholarly given.

Actually, I would say thats very detailed, scholarly speculation. However, I think the best way to inquire as to who he is to try to study the etymology of the name, otherwise I quess Tolkien meant to expound on the character but probably forgot 
PS. I see some similarities with the link Turgon provided. I hadn’t read it before, but I’m glad that someone else thought the way I did.[/QUOTE]


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## Hobbit-GalRosie (Aug 1, 2009)

Wow, I remember reading this thread way back when it was new. Glad someone found it and dusted it off. Thanks childoferu. 

I really don't have a lot to add as gate7ole's speculation makes quite perfect sense to me. And here's yet another person I'd love to see come back to the forum.

The link doesn't work for me...anyone else having better luck?


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## childoferu (Aug 1, 2009)

Hobbit-GalRosie said:


> Wow, I remember reading this thread way back when it was new. Glad someone found it and dusted it off. Thanks childoferu.
> 
> I really don't have a lot to add as gate7ole's speculation makes quite perfect sense to me. And here's yet another person I'd love to see come back to the forum.
> 
> The link doesn't work for me...anyone else having better luck?


 
Considering the age of the thread, the link is probably defective now, and you're welcome, just trying to some life into the forum by reviving some long-dead threads


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## The Tall Hobbit (Sep 5, 2009)

Hobbit-GalRosie said:


> The link doesn't work for me...anyone else having better luck?





childoferu said:


> Considering the age of the thread, the link is probably defective now



http://web.archive.org/web/20010728...n.netsurf.de/~lalaith/Tolkien/Bladorthin.html


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## Bucky (Oct 7, 2009)

Foster is Full of 'poop'. NOT an Elvish king - that's just laughable.

Please note.........

All speculation aside (says the voice of reason against utterly unsupportable theories, lol):

"From that the talk turned to the horde itself and to the things that Thorin and Balin remembered. They wondered if they were still lying there unharmed in the hall below: the spears made for the armies of the great King Bladorthin (long since dead),"

Only Balin & Thorin remember because they were in Erebor to remember it.

Perhaps he might simply be an older Lord of Dale.

I doubt the Dwarves of Durin's House were making spears for any Easterlings aligned with Sauron.

Or, most very likely, The Great King Bladerthin needed the spears to go hunt the wild wereworms of the Last Desert.


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## Ancalagon (Nov 2, 2009)

King Bladorthin is one of Tolkiens anomalies that we will never get to know about. He is right up there with Queen Beruthiel and 'The Way is Shut' guy at the Paths of the Dead.

Out of interest, what other mysteries do you wish you knew more about but were never answered?


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## Bucky (Nov 3, 2009)

Ancalagon said:


> King Bladorthin is one of Tolkiens anomalies that we will never get to know about. He is right up there with Queen Beruthiel and 'The Way is Shut' guy at the Paths of the Dead.
> 
> Out of interest, what other mysteries do you wish you knew more about but were never answered?



*Queen Beruthiel is not a mystery as I am sure one as well informed as you, Alcalagon, well know. Correct?

The Wild Were-worms of the Last Desert certainly qualify.

However, 'stuff' in the Hobbit, does that really qualify? 

Tolkien never wrote The Hobbit with the intention of the book fitting perfectly into the (then unpublished) world of Middle-earth & his atttempt to completely rewrite it to fit into TLOR better went unfinished. *


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## Alcuin (Nov 5, 2009)

There is a good thread on Berúthiel that includes a link to long interview Tolkien gave to one of his former students published in the 1960s, as well as some other material. The interview as it appeared in the magazine is complete. 

There is also a book published August 2007 that I do not have entitled _History of the Hobbit_ that might shed some light on the elusive Bladorthin. But apparently Bladorthin (possibly Elvish for ‘grey wide plain’? where is *Galin*?) was indeed the name of Gandalf, as *Wyvern* notes (since that information predates 2007, perhaps it comes from _Annotated Hobbit_, which is now available in Kindle edition). I also understand that “Gandalf” was the name initially given the character we know as Thorin Oakenshield, and Smaug was originally called “Pryftan”. 

Tolkien often reused and reassigned names as he wrote. I think I recall that he once said in a BBC interview that if he had a name for something, he could weave a tale about it.


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## Ancalagon (Nov 5, 2009)

I had never before read that interview, particularly his thought on Queen Beruthiel, so thank you, that is a most pleasant first for me!

Bladorthin is still an enigma to my knowledge, which is limited to say the least.


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## Bucky (Nov 5, 2009)

I've never heard/read the interview (and don't have time now), but I believe it's pretty well common knowledge that Tolkien mentions in one of his Letters or Unfinished Tales about Queen Beruthiel & her cats acting as spies, her later being set adrift, etc.


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## Paladin (Jun 10, 2011)

gate7ole said:


> The facts:
> Bladorthin was a great King that had ordered from the dwarves of Erebor to make for his armies valuable spears. He never got them (or paid for them), since he apparently died prematurely before acquiring them.
> The Kingdom of Erebor was founded in 1999, lasted until 2210 and again from 2590 to 2770. This is two periods of about two hundred years. Especially during the second period, we read from the Appentix of LOTR:
> [quoote]and he and his folk prospered and became rich, and they had the friendship of all Men that dwelt near. For they made not only things of wonder a beauty but weapons and armour of great worth.
> the Northmen who lived between Celduin (River Running) and Carnen (Redwater) became strong and drove back all enemies from the East;



The speculation:
The above are the only hints about the possible identity of the king Bladorthin. Robert Foster says that he is probably an Elf. I’m strongly opposed to this, since all major Elven-Kingdoms were mentioned by Tolkien and especially if they had communication with the dwarves of Erebor, that played an important role in the War of the Ring. Being a king of the Avari, is also very doubtful for the reason that they should have come in some communication with the Silvan Elves (and probably helped them in their wars). Being a dwarf is out of the question, so he could only be a Man.
Also, from the quote we get the impression that not only the king perished, but his kingdom as well, probably losing the battle to which these spears were intented to be used. The best procedure to follow is to search the Tale of Years about what happened during the two periods of Erebor’s foundation. First about the second period, we see a renewal of orcish invasions to Eriador. This may imply that some enemy of theirs fell and they came unhindered even to the Shire. Could it be the Lossoth? I doubt it, since they were very secretive and also poor.
Then we have the first period, where Sauron leaves Dol Guldur and goes to the East and the Watchful Peace starts. This happenes in 2063. After 150 years Thorin I leaves Erebor. And Sauron returns after another 200 years. Certainly Sauron went to the East to organize the Easterlings. He probably had to deal with their civil wars and the wars with the less evil kingdoms. This last one is what concerns me. It cannot be that all the mannish peoples of the East were evil. There must have been some good, that Sauron destroyed. Such a kingdom must have been the one in discussion. King Bladorthin realized that a great enemy had arrived and helped the other Easterlings. He ordered spears from the Dwarves, but they were never needed, since the defeat was quick (natural, since Sauron had no match there).
The actual place of the kingdom should be quite close to Erebor, probably just above Rhun. This place not only explains the possible wars they might have, the communication with Erebor, but also it explains why Tolkien didn’t mention it, since it is outside the “map” of LOTR. It is quite possible that this kingdom was once great and even ruled a great area, reaching Mirkwood. With the arrival of the Dúnedain, they probably retreated understanding their inferiority. But they were never hostile to them. On the contrary, they must have prevented many evil tribes to attack Rhovanion and Gondor. Maybe at the times of the Wainriders, they were already declining and couldn’t confront them.
That was just my thought, not very scholarly given.

PS. I see some similarities with the link Turgon provided. I hadn’t read it before, but I’m glad that someone else thought the way I did.[/QUOTE]

These are exactly my thoughts as well. I think KIng Bladorthin was one of the Kings of the Northmen whose kingdom was between the Celduin or Carnen or further to the East. Their enemies were most likely the Easterlings.


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