# Did Gandalf save Lórien?



## Alcuin (Oct 31, 2006)

As we all know, Gandalf fell into the chasm spanned by Durin’s Bridge between the First and Second Halls of Khazad-dûm. He fought the Balrog of Moria for 10 days until he vanquished it on the peak of Zirakzigil, where he died and his body lay for nearly 3 weeks until his spirit returned from the West to complete its task.

Suppose, however, that there was more at work than just bad luck: that like Bilbo’s finding of the Ring, rather than an orc’s finding it, Gandalf was _meant_ to fight and vanquish the Balrog.

Consider this for a moment. During the War of the Ring, three attacks were launched against Lórien from Dol Guldur. All of them failed. But what would the outcome have been had the Balrog joined in those assaults from the east by launching an attack from the west, from Moria? Would Lórien have fallen?

The orcs and trolls in Moria were sent there by Sauron about III 2480. (See _RotK_, “Appendix B”.) Since the Balrog permitted this, there must have been some understanding between it and Sauron: not, perhaps, a master-servant relationship, but one based upon mutual hatred of the Eldar, and in particular of Galadriel, last of the Noldor of the House of Finwë still in Middle-earth; and besides Gandalf, the oldest and strongest and most bitter adversary of Sauron. Moreover, both Sauron and the Balrog had been servants of Morgoth, some of whose evil will still remained in Arda. 

Finally, Celeborn was afraid of the Balrog, was he not? He knew that Durin’s Bane still existed, and said he would have barred the Company of the Ring from entering Lórien had he known that they “‘had stirred up this evil in Moria again.’” (See _FotR_, “The Mirror of Galadriel”.) 

So, did Gandalf save Lórien? Was this an intention of the Valar? And did Celeborn know the true nature of Durin’s Bane?


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## Sammyboy (Oct 31, 2006)

Interesting theory! I would say though that it was probably more of a lucky co-incidence, something that came to pass which did more good than people initially thought and turned out to be a great help to Lorien as an unexpected bonus.


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## Varokhâr (Oct 31, 2006)

I tend to think it was more of a very lucky coincidence as well; Tolkien doesn't mention that it had anything to do with Valarian plans. Though it can certainly be read as being influenced by the Valar, I still think it was all just good fortune.

I can see a possible understanding between the Balrog of Moria and Sauron, and am inclined to consider it, but why would the Balrog only permit Sauron's armies to access Moria and not join in the fun himself? Or even try to usurp authority; if there is any understanding between the Balrog and Sauron, one would think the Balrog would be aware of Sauron's disemobdied and rather imprisoned state, and would be less inclined to cooperate, despite any status Sauron held with Morgoth in the past.


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## Alcuin (Nov 5, 2006)

_*Bump!*_

Many of you have looked at this thread but declined to vote. Please share your views! Vote, at least.


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## Starbrow (Nov 5, 2006)

I think it was more of a coincidence that Gandalf met the Balrog. After all, the company did not originally intend to go through Moria. Unless you think the Valar had a hand in the freakish snowstorm, I don't think fate had anything to do with it.

The other point to consider is whether the defeat of the Balrog saved Lorien. The implication is that the elves of Lorien would not have been able to defeat the balrog, even if it did leave the mines. I don't know of any writings telling of the Balrog leaving Moria to attack elves during any of the other battles with Sauron, so I'm not sure why it would do so during the War of the Ring. If the Balrog did attack Lorien, I'm sure it would kill many elves and destroy much of the land. However, I think Galadriel and Celeborn, along with the other elves, were powerful enough to eventually defeat the Balrog. I wouldn't say they could defeat it for certain, though.


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## Valandil (Nov 5, 2006)

A definite maybe. Great observations, Alcuin!


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## DGoeij (Nov 6, 2006)

If Gandalf thought of Smaug as a possible ally of Sauron in the future (the main underlying reason for Gandalf to support the quest in the Hobbit IIRC), I don't see why this Balrog couldn't have been a potential one as well. And considering the laying of the Mines of Moria, I imagine Lorien as its most likely target, _if_ it wished to participate in the War of the Ring.

Galadriel was certainly no pushover (I don't know much about Clelborn I'm afraid), but I do not imagine her being all too happy with a Balrog loose at her borders.

Gandalf himself wasn't reluctant to use Moria as the way east, but he appeared to be surprised that a Balrog lurked there. So I'm not sure if the clash with the balrog was intentional (wasn't there a thread about wether gandalf knew about the Balrog or not?), but I do think anyone opposing Sauron would be happy to hear of its destruction.

Very interesting question. I vote: maybe.

EDIT: Couldn't find a thread like I mentioned.


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## Alcuin (Nov 6, 2006)

I don’t think Gandalf knew the Balrog was in Moria; and I believe either Sauron or Saruman (or a combination of both) was responsible for bad weather on Caradhras, although Gimli seems to have believed that the mountain itself had an evil disposition (perhaps because of its long resident, the Balrog?). What the Valar knew – that’s another matter. Again, it seems to me that just as Bilbo was _meant_ to find the Ring, Gandalf the Grey was _meant_ to fight the Balrog; but even Gandalf the White didn’t like to be reminded of it.


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## Hobbit-GalRosie (Nov 12, 2006)

'Kay, before I comment on the rest of this thread, I'd just like to point out that Tolkien stated in of the _Letters_ that Gandalf actually went to Eru when he died, not to Valinor, though he discussed that possibility and finally rejected it after pointing out its merits. Of course some things change over time with anything that wasn't originally published in LotR, and Tolkien often offers multiple, conflicting explanations on various points, but to my knowledge that is not the case with this one. And if it is I'd sure like to know about it! So, yes, anyone that has/remembers any evidence to the contrary on that that I don't, please 'splain it to me.

As to whether Gandalf saved Lorien...I'd say that's "fairly certain" but not truly so... Whether or not Sauron actually knew anything about the Balrog his growing power was awakening forces of evil all over Middle-Earth, and obviously said Balrog won't be sitting on his bum forever. So to me the only question is whether he would actually come out of Moria to wreek additional destruction, which seems likely for the most part, but still is far from certain. I'd say that since the Moria goblins were willing to come out after the Fellowship passed through and team up with Saruman's orks they at least would have been likely to make some move eventually, and the fact that the goblins were going out warring would have probably gotten the Balrog quite properly rilded up.

So even assuming the Balrog isn't "intelligent" enough in that way to see what a grand opportunity that would have been to attack Lorien, I think it's likely he would have ended up doing so eventually regardless. Still, you just can't quite predict that kind of thing.

And then one has to deal with the question of, "Would the Balrog have actually destroyed Lorien if he did attack?" I think yes, for all practical purposes...at the very least Lorien would have been so horribly marred it just wouldn't be itself anymore, even assuming the warriors of Lorien and Celeborn and Galadriel and the Ring of Water were able to defeat it, it can't have been before a lot of damage was done.

So yeah, Gandalf definitely maybe saved Lorien. But I doubt that was on his or anyone else's mind, except perhaps Iluvatar's. As in, yes, it was just chance that led Bilbo to find the ring, if you choose to call it that.


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## Richard (Nov 12, 2006)

Indirecty perhaps. I do not believe Sauron could not beat Galadriel unless he had the one ring


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## Arvedui (Nov 14, 2006)

Some of the company knew that something evil lurked within. Remember what Strider told Gandalf before they entered? That it was Gandalf he was concerned about, not the others. I haven't thought about this matter from this angle before, but I think that the steps of the Fellowship just might have been steered by Someone.
Good observation, Alcuin. I agree with you on this one.


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## Alcuin (Nov 16, 2006)

Hobbit-GalRosie said:


> ... I'd just like to point out that Tolkien stated in of the _Letters_ that Gandalf actually went to Eru when he died, not to Valinor, though he discussed that possibility and finally rejected it after pointing out its merits.


Do you refer to the discussion of the intercession of “the Authority” vs. that of “the gods” in Letter 156? I had not noticed that before… thank you.


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 11, 2007)

I voted maybe.

I am willing to ascribe greater significance to some events, namely that they occured -- only partly, if not wholly -- due to the design of Eru, but it's difficult to sieve out these instances, and frankly I'm reluctant to do so because we have too little to work on, and intervention by the Valar or Eru would be incongruent with the concept of free will (though complete free will can't exist).



Varokhâr said:


> if there is any understanding between the Balrog and Sauron, one would think the Balrog would be aware of Sauron's disemobdied and rather imprisoned state, and would be less inclined to cooperate, despite any status Sauron held with Morgoth in the past.



I am pretty certain that Sauron had a body in the Third Age.



DGoeij said:


> Gandalf himself wasn't reluctant to use Moria as the way east, but he appeared to be surprised that a Balrog lurked there.



Wasn't he? I seem to remember that he was, but he had to choose it because Caradhras was impassable and the gap of Rohan was not an option. But it's been quite a while since I last read the books, so I may be mistaken.



Alcuin said:


> and I believe either Sauron or Saruman (or a combination of both) was responsible for bad weather on Caradhras



I'm a little iffy about either of those two having pulled the strings at Caradhras. It's one thing for Sauron to control Mount Doom, in the very heart of his realm, but the Misty Mountains simply seem too far away, even for his reach. But I'm not at all certain about this, especially keeping in mind the following:



> although Gimli seems to have believed that the mountain itself had an evil disposition (perhaps because of its long resident, the Balrog?).



Or perhaps due to the fact that the Misty Mountains were reared by Melkor to hinder the travels of Oromë, so they may well have had an 'aura' of evil about them, making them more readily "usable" to the servants of Melkor.


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## Noldor_returned (Feb 12, 2007)

I'm saying yes, purely on a technicality. The original question is did Gandalf save Lorien? Well, by defeating the Balrog he may have saved Lorien, but I don't know if it was all because of fate/destiny mumbo jumbo.


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## Grond (Apr 17, 2007)

No. Lorien would not have fallen. Both Glorfindal and Ecthelion slew Balrogs in Gondolin (one of which was Gothog though I forget which of them did the slaying). I would deem that the team of Celeborn and Galadriel would be a more deadly team than either of the other two and don't think that the Balrog could have prevailed against Lorien. 

I'm unsure if the sleeping Balrog would have come to Sauron's support. The Balrogs were Melkor's bodyguards and there is never a reference in the Sil of any type of alliance between them and Sauron. Both Sauron and the Balrog's were Maia and both would have their own agendas. I would not doubt that the Balrog would be a thorn in the side of Middle-earth but I don't see him looking after any interest but his own.

I'll look in the Letters later tonight to see if this issue is addressed at all.

Cheers,

grond


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## Rick Flowers (Apr 18, 2007)

I have to say no. My current viewpoint is like this:

The Balrog is intelligent and not under third party control. It has nothing to gain by aiding Sauron. 

It is also a much more powerful creature than to simply join up with Sauron's minions and fight Lorien in any sort of harmony. 
I am also led to believe that even if the Balrog had attacked Lorien, it would have been defeated... and I know this may sound like I am contradicting... but I think the one that was always destined to defeat the Balrog was Gandalf. =/

So did he save Lorien? No, due to technicality. However I think he definitely would have if he could have.


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## Snaga (May 21, 2007)

First of all, I am fairly convinced that Gandalf did not know that Durin's Bane was a balrog, and if he didn't then nor would any of the wise. Gandalf's reaction on being challenged through the closed door in Moria indicates he doesn't know, and when the Fellowship see the Balrog for the first time his reaction is one of surprise and realisation. He did not know. Therefore if he did 'save Lorien' it was not by prior intent.

Having said that, I think it is likely that Sauron did know of the balrog. As Alcuin has indicated, Sauron's orcs had seen sent to Moria. There are several indications to this - indeed some of the orcs were fairly recent arrivals. (See Haldir's comments on orc movements). It seems unlikely that orcs were sent to Moria and not expected to report - even on something as trivial as the presence of a balrog might merit attention!

But it isn't clear whether the Balrog would take orders from Sauron, although I think it can be said that, ultimately, Sauron would bend it to his will. But it might take the Ring to completely bring the Balrog to heel. The Balrog was, it may be surmised, highly fearful of the wrath of the valar, having lain hidden for two ages. Would it now venture forth? There is no way to know this.

But if it had come forth, then could the Balrog, allied with Dol Guldur have thrown down the defences of Lorien? On this I feel more sure that the answer is no. We are told that Lorien would stand unless Sauron himself came. Certainly it would have been a mighty battle but I don't think the Balrog could have made the difference.


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