# Vanyar, Ñoldor or Teleri



## Maedhros (Nov 19, 2002)

Of all the three kinds of Quendi, who do you think is the better? Can it be said that some kind is superior or greater than the other.
I have always liked the Ñoldor better because of their achivements and deeds, but I wonder if they can be considered truly the best?


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## Ithrynluin (Nov 19, 2002)

No one kind is better than another. The Noldor achieved much but they also did many things that would be considered wrong.

I've posted a similar thread in the Sil section - Favourite elven kindred


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## Maedhros (Nov 21, 2002)

I'm not asking who is your favorite kind of elf. What I'm trying to question here is if some kind have a more "high moral" character than the others.
For example:
If you read the _Letters of JRRT 131:_


> The fall of the Elves comes about through the possessive attitude of Fëanor and his seven sons to these gems. They are captured by the Enemy, set in his Iron Crown, and guarded in his impenetrable stronghold . The sons of Fëanor take a terrible and blasphemous oath of enmity and vengeance against all or any, even of the gods, who dares to claim any part or right in the Silmarilli. *They pervert the greater part of their kindred, who rebel against the gods, and depart from paradise*


In here the Author states that it is the Ñoldor who "fall" from their status. The other two kindreds didn't, so I wonder, is one kindred morally better than the other.


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## Confusticated (Nov 21, 2002)

I have no doubt that ithrynluin knows that you do not ask who is our favorite kind of elf. He's a fairly intelligent guy. 
Maybe that would be why he said "similar" thread. 

You ask who is best?  Then you ask about superiority, then greatness.
Now you say moraly better. 
Morally? I do not know. I think we did not know the Vanyar well enough to know. Though there could be stuff in HoMe or the letters that I haven't read yet which has the answer.
In my _opnion_ all three kindreds were equal in most aspects. If you read the thread that ithrynluin linked to, you will know more about what I think. Though that thread does ask which elf is _our favorite_ so you may find it useless to read?
Superiority? I do not know.
Greatest? I think Noldor, but that is just my opinion after reading some books. It also depends on definition of greatness, and I know that we do not agree on that around here.


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## Turgon (Nov 21, 2002)

It is hard question you pose Maedhros - how can we decide which of the kindreds is morally superior? Morality after all is a subjective quality - is there a specific set of moral codes we can apply here? Some crusty old sophist once said 'Man is the measure of all things' I think the same thing can be applied to the Eldar.

That being said I think the reason the Noldor hold such fascination for us, is because they are, in many respects, the mirror of modern man. I think people reading Tolkien's work today find much more in common with the Noldor than say the Dúnedain or the Rohirrim. Their relentless search for knowledge, the love of their own works, their appetite for self-destruction: all traits we share. Fëanor's tragedy is our tragedy that his why we both admire him and despise him (or it least why I do). He is the 'revolutionary at the gates of heaven' to use your own words; just as we are. Seeking to usurp the rule of gods or bonds of nature - whatever you wish to call it, and yet ultimately lacking the foresight to see what end our deeds will lead us too.

That's my belief anyway.


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## Aiwendil2 (Nov 21, 2002)

> Morality after all is a subjective quality - is there a specific set of moral codes we can apply here?



Within Tolkien's subcreation, I don't think morality is subjective at all. Clearly, whatever Eru defines as morally good is morally good, and whatever he defines as evil is evil. The Valar, acting as his servants, also have moral authority. Thus, I think it is perfectly clear that the Noldor (at least, many of the Noldor) are morally flawed.


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## Turgon (Nov 22, 2002)

> Within Tolkien's subcreation, I don't think morality is subjective at all. Clearly, whatever Eru defines as morally good is morally good, and whatever he defines as evil is evil. The Valar, acting as his servants, also have moral authority. Thus, I think it is perfectly clear that the Noldor (at least, many of the Noldor) are morally flawed.



I have trouble with that line of reasoning. What were these moral codes defined by Eru? Is there a set of commandments I've missed somewhere? It's not clear to me at all. But still, whether it be 'Eru is the measure of all things' or 'Man is the measure of all things' I still see a degree of subjectivity here; and 'Moral Authority' sounds too much like tyranny in my ears. Of course the Noldor were flawed - that was my point. But flawed because they disobeyed the Valar's 'moral authority'? Because of the kinslaying? Because they listened too eagerly to Melkor's lies? Can the Valar claim a moral authority as they sit in Valinor deaf to the cries of those who suffered torment in the wars against Melkor? Is the slaying of so many orcs (abject, twisted slaves of the Dark Lord's will) morally right? There lies the Subjectivity - in our perception of Tolkien's subcreation.


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## Lhunithiliel (Nov 22, 2002)

And here we come again to the main question of truth!

I mean, that in order to define which of those three is the best in all aspects quoted, one has to ask first the question - what is the *true* story? !
The story seen from the p.o.v. of Eru >>>>> one truth
The story seen from the p.o.v. of the Valar >>>>> another truth
The story seen from the p.o.v. of the Elves of the three DIFFERENT lines >>>>> yet other THREE truths
The story seen from the p.o.v. of the Men>>>>>quite a different truth!

So, which one to choose as a foundation?  

Once this is specified, IMO, one can then judge.... 
At least I think so...
Besides, there is ALWAYS the *individual* influence upon the reader's opinion on such matters! Every one has his/her individual perception and one can just NOT escape from it!  I think that the most difficult thing for a person is to stay objective  about things!
-----------------
Yet, thank you Maedhros for bringing up a good topic!!!!
I needed such a thing to wake up my "grey cells"


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## Maedhros (Nov 25, 2002)

> But still, whether it be 'Eru is the measure of all things' or 'Man is the measure of all things' I still see a degree of subjectivity here; and 'Moral Authority' sounds too much like tyranny in my ears. Of course the Noldor were flawed - that was my point. But flawed because they disobeyed the Valar's 'moral authority'? Because of the kinslaying? Because they listened too eagerly to Melkor's lies? Can the Valar claim a moral authority as they sit in Valinor deaf to the cries of those who suffered torment in the wars against Melkor? Is the slaying of so many orcs (abject, twisted slaves of the Dark Lord's will) morally right? There lies the Subjectivity - in our perception of Tolkien's subcreation.


You have a point there. When you think about it, the Moral authority of the Valar was not that high, because it was them who permitted Melkor to roam freely in Valinor, yet the Ñoldor were in a way "perverted". The term perverted is used by JRRT in the Letters.
Was it right for the Fëanor to rebell against the Valar, because his father was killed and his Silmarils stolen? The whole point of the matter is Fëanor. He held no discussion with Melkor, yet he was a direct casualty of the Marring of Arda by Melkor. The fact that his Mother Míriel Þerinde, died, affected him. Was it morally right that his mother died in Aman?
Unfortunately, for the Ñoldor, some listened to Melkor, was it right for them to do so, I mean, after all weren't the Valar (Manwë) themselves who set him free in Valinor.


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## YayGollum (Nov 25, 2002)

Ick. Noldor, Noldor, Noldor. They're too popular. I don't know too much about the Vanyar. sorry. I must seem stupid. If I had to pick a favorite from this small selection, I'd have to go for the Teleri. just because Eol liked them, and Eol is cool.  
How many evil and immoral type stuffs did the Teleri do? Not as many as the Noldor. So they win that category. 
What else was there? Something about greatness? Yeah, that depends on your definition of greatness. Seems to me to be that you'd fit it so that it worked for whoever your favorite was.


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## Snaga (Nov 25, 2002)

Eol was one of the Teleri (Sindar to be precise). I love the Avari, especially the ones Melkor corrupted and used for breeding Go Yrchs!


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## Zale (Nov 30, 2002)

If we're talking about morality then the Noldor are clearly inferior, I have to say. They are the only ones that "fell"; remember, they (or Feanor) were responsible for the burining of the Teleri's boats.
This may imply some weakness and maybe inferiority to the other branches of the Quendi, but you could argue they were the only ones with strength enough to stand up and fight Morgoth. I think maybe Tolkien was trying to create them all even. I should certainly think he didn't pick favourites!


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Nov 16, 2022)

The Vanyar were the most placid out of them all.
The Noldor were the most determined out of them all.
The Teleri were the most artistic of them all.

So it really depends...I can relate to all three.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Nov 16, 2022)

Everyone can. To me, no one is solely determined and not artistic, no one is just one thing. We all have layers.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Nov 16, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Everyone can. To me, no one is solely determined and not artistic, no one is just one thing.


I fully concur.


Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> We all have layers.


Indeed we all do, and some more than others. For within the depths of the Sea lies Water as its main element, yet within these Waters there are many layers interwoven together... Thus, 'tis incredibly gentle, yet unfathomably complex, all at the same time...


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Nov 16, 2022)

Agreeing with you totally. We each have depths and surfaces.


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## ZehnWaters (Nov 16, 2022)

Maedhros said:


> Of all the three kinds of Quendi, who do you think is the better? Can it be said that some kind is superior or greater than the other.
> I have always liked the Ñoldor better because of their achivements and deeds, but I wonder if they can be considered truly the best?


Better is subjective unless you specify what we're gauging them to be better at. Better at singing? More often than not, the Teleri is the answer. Righteousness? Vanyar and the Teleri of Aman seem to win that out.


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