# Tom Bombadil



## Holdwine (Oct 13, 2003)

ok in the book Tom bombadil has been around in the old forest area since before the forest was there. now i was wondering does anybody know what race Tom is if he is an elf valar or what?


----------



## Celebthôl (Oct 13, 2003)

This is the biggest discussed topic, no one knows, he just is, he is like no other being in Tolkiens works.


----------



## Roilya (Oct 13, 2003)

i think he might be a maiar.


----------



## BlackCaptain (Oct 13, 2003)

Tolkien says he's an enigma, therefore he isn't anything

He isnt Man
Isnt Elf
Isnt Dwarf
Isnt Hobbit
Isn't Istari
Isn't Maia
Isn't Vala
Isn't Entish....

Tom is Tom, in the body of a man, and the mortality of an Elf.


----------



## Roilya (Oct 13, 2003)

o, well put cap


----------



## Kahmûl (Oct 15, 2003)

Would Tom be able to be slain?


----------



## Celebthôl (Oct 15, 2003)

Maybe, its never been put to the test 

But something tells me that nothing could touch him, like an entire army of Orcs wouldnt be able to kill him. . .


----------



## Gandalf White (Oct 15, 2003)

I suggest you try this link. It has *tons* of information on ol' Tom.


----------



## Celebthôl (Oct 15, 2003)

No, you cant do links, it shuts down threads quick, it has made things to efficiant and so makes TTF boring, its main reason people are leaving, its better to get fresh ideas on it, not used ideas etc


----------



## ely (Oct 16, 2003)

*Just wondering...*

... we don't know who Tom was, but did the other inhabitants of ME know that? For example Gandalf, he speaks of Tom, does he know who Tom Bombadil exactly is?


----------



## Red Istar (Oct 16, 2003)

I've always thought of him as some kind of spirit, an embodiment of nature.


----------



## Amarië (Oct 20, 2003)

Here is a really interesting essay about Tom Bombadil...
It's pretty long but give it a gander if you have time...

http://www.valaquenta.com/essays/tom_bombadil.html

~A~


----------



## Estella Bolger (Oct 21, 2003)

Well since I'm interested enough I'll make the time. I did always wonder about Tom Bombadil, he is a great character after all.


----------



## BlackCaptain (Oct 21, 2003)

I don't think he would be able to be slain, because Tolkien simply wouldn't allow it. I think that's why he kept Tom out of the War of the Ring, because he wanted to keep Tom in the story. He put the enigma in and gosh darn-it he's gona keep it!lol


----------



## Gandalf White (Oct 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Celebthôl _
> *No, you cant do links, it shuts down threads quick, it has made things to efficiant and so makes TTF boring, its main reason people are leaving, its better to get fresh ideas on it, not used ideas etc  *


 My apologies, Thòl; one gets yelled at for being helpful, eh?   



> Would Tom be able to be slain?


 Yes, he would. Gandalf states that once all free lands were taken, Tom would fall "Last as he was First; and then Night will come." 

That last sentence makes for some interesting conjectures as well...


----------



## Red Istar (Oct 21, 2003)

Maybe the world would end...


----------



## BlackCaptain (Oct 21, 2003)

And then Middle Earth wouldn't be Middle Earth because Tom isn't in it! Because Tom is 1 with middle earth, because he's so essential as an enigma! 

I think anyways...


----------



## Gandalf White (Oct 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by BlackCaptain _
> *And then Middle Earth wouldn't be Middle Earth because Tom isn't in it! Because Tom is 1 with middle earth, because he's so essential as an enigma!
> 
> I think anyways...  *


 True, it wouldn't be Middle Earth, it would be Sauron's Earth. 

But what exactly is meant by "and then Night will come?" Does the capital 'N' imply the total darkness because of Sauron's complete rule, or as Red Istar said, the end of Middle Earth? 

Perhaps someone more knowledgable could come along and help us out...


----------



## Helcaraxë (Nov 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Red Istar _
> *I've always thought of him as some kind of spirit, an embodiment of nature. *



I concur.


----------



## elf_queen (Nov 9, 2003)

> Yes, he would. Gandalf states that once all free lands were taken, Tom would fall "Last as he was First; and then Night will come."



Well, I don't know. Maybe "fall" just means be defeated or enslaved, somehow I can't imagine Tom dying.


----------



## Madonna Baggins (Nov 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by BlackCaptain _
> *Tolkien says he's an enigma, therefore he isn't anything
> 
> He isnt Man
> ...



Is that the reason why the ring didn´t effedt him in any way?
Because he is nothing? He must be something? A ghost?


----------



## Madonna Baggins (Nov 11, 2003)

what happens if you put the ring on an ent or a balrog? do they disapear? What about other anilmals?


----------



## Maegnas (Nov 30, 2003)

I have a book and in the back it has every book J.R.R.T ever wrote even some that did not get published. And there one about Tom bombadil but it did not get published I wished it would have though.


----------



## Lantarion (Nov 30, 2003)

Woah sounds interesting Maegnas! Think you could get some moe precice info no that? 

Madonna there is a thread discussing that same question (well, basically) somewhere around here.. I tried to look for it but I didn't find it.. 
I promise I'll put the link in here when I find it.


----------



## Maegnas (Dec 1, 2003)

Well I thought about trying to get hold of Christper Tolkien some how and see if he could find out about it and send it to me, I think that Chris could find it cause he was the one left in carge of his dads work and he also finshed a few of his dads books like the unfinshed 1 and 2 and some of the Silmarillion editing.


----------



## Lantarion (Dec 1, 2003)

Hehe, yes and all 12 volumes of the HoME.. 
Kudos to Christopher for that!! 

Hmm but is he still alive (I certainly hope so).. I have an audio CD with him speaking on it from a while back and he's pretty old on it..


----------



## Maegnas (Dec 1, 2003)

Did it happen to say where you could get in touch with and where he lives?


----------



## Rangerdave (Dec 1, 2003)

I am begining to believe that good ole Tom is the sentient manifestation of the Second theme of Eru.



oooooh metaphysical
 

RD


----------



## Lantarion (Dec 1, 2003)

> oooooh metaphysical


Too metaphysical! ACK!
*gasp*, *groan*, *choke*, *gurgle*, *faint*


----------



## klugiglugus (Dec 2, 2003)

My own personal opinion is that Tom is metaphorical for Tolkien himself! Think about it, who was there at the very beginning of middle earth? Tolkien!

This idea that Tom was at the conception of middle earth may lead you to think in perhaps some small part of your mind that he had some part in it's creation and whom created it in reality? Tolkien.

Look at the language, the words that Tom speaks, the sort of bounce along in rhyme and sound very much like wilderness and where did Tolkien first have his ideas for middle earth? When he first had the ideas for the silmarillion and where was he then? In a forest when his wife was dancing for him.

I conclude that it is very logical to believe Tom was in fact symbolic for the author himself.


----------



## Red Istar (Dec 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by klugiglugus _
> *My own personal opinion is that Tom is metaphorical for Tolkien himself! Think about it, who was there at the very beginning of middle earth? Tolkien!
> 
> This idea that Tom was at the conception of middle earth may lead you to think in perhaps some small part of your mind that he had some part in it's creation and whom created it in reality? Tolkien.
> ...



That is an interesting theory.


----------



## Helcaraxë (Dec 2, 2003)

Bombadil, Tolkien said, is the "embodiment of the (now fading) Oxford countryside" or something like that. Tom is as old as the World. Also, BC, Bombadil cannot be one with all of Middle-Earth because he has no power outside of his realm.


--MB


----------



## Maegnas (Dec 3, 2003)

I the book the Myth Maker it is a biogarphy of J.R.R.T and it said that Tolkien's daughter wan'ted a chacater like her doll and then along came Tom.B.


----------



## klugiglugus (Dec 4, 2003)

> I the book the Myth Maker it is a biogarphy of J.R.R.T and it said that Tolkien's daughter wan'ted a chacater like her doll and then along came Tom.B.



Thats possible, I like that reason...


----------



## Lantarion (Dec 4, 2003)

Yes I think it's in a volume of HoME that Tom was originally not connected to M-e at all. Like 'Roverandom' and 'The Fathre Christmas Letters', Tom Bombadil was created for the enjoyment of JRRT's own children, IIRC.


----------



## Red Istar (Dec 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MorgothsBane _
> *Bombadil, Tolkien said, is the "embodiment of the (now fading) oxford countryside" or something like that. Tom is as old as the World. Also, BC, Bombadil cannot be one with Moddle-Earth because he has no power outside of his realm.
> 
> 
> --MB *



Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Maybe he is just the embodiment of the Old Forest?


----------



## aturina (Dec 27, 2003)

I'm on my second reading of LOTR and recently finished the chapter with Tom Bombadil. I find that he is so much more fascinating reading about him the second time.

Since its the holiday season, I can't help but think of him as a Santa Claus figure or a Sagittarian personality. But, definitely, I can see him appealing to a child.

He seems to me to be very much a part of middle-earth and yet, he is also not a part of it and thats why the ring (and other horrible things) don't seem to affect him. And, that also may be why he didn't play a part in the destruction of the ring. He seems to be above it all. To him, it was almost a big joke.

And what about Goldberry? She seems to also be an enigma. I think of her as a Goddess.......immortal like elves but not an elf. Her domain is the river or waters of middle-earth. And is she married to Tom? or exactly what is their relationship?


----------



## jallan (Jan 1, 2004)

Tom and Goldberry are definitely married.

Their wedding is even described in the poem “The Adventures of Tom Bombadil” in the book _The Adventures of Tom Bombadil_. The poem even includes a description of what the bride wore:


> Old Tom Bombadil had a merry wedding,
> crowned all with buttercups, hat and feather shedding;
> his bride with forgetmenots and flag-lillies for garland
> was robbed all in silver-green. He sang like a starling,
> ...


Your interpretation of Tom is so exactly what Tolkien provides in his letters.


----------



## aturina (Jan 2, 2004)

Thank you, jallan, for that great piece of information!

I thought I read somewhere that "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil" was never published?


----------



## Maerbenn (Jan 2, 2004)

*The Adventures of Tom Bombadil*

“The Adventures of Tom Bombadil” (the poem) was first published in _The Oxford Magazine_ vol. 52, no. 13 on February 13th, 1934.

_The Adventures of Tom Bombadil_ (the book) was first published by George Allen & Unwin on November 22nd, 1962.

Source: A Chronological Bibliography of the Writings of J.R.R. Tolkien compiled by Åke Bertenstam


----------



## Warrior (Jan 18, 2004)

> I've always thought of him as some kind of spirit, an embodiment of nature.
> 
> Red Istar




 Then maybe that's why he 'saw' through the magic of the Ring. When Tom gave Frodo back the Ring, to make sure it was the One Ring Frodo put it on his finger and disapeared:
'Hey there!' cried Tom, glancing towards him with a most seeing look in his shining eyes. 'Hey! come Frodo....Where be you a-going? Old Tom Bombadil's not as blind as that yet. Take off your golden ring!....Come back! Leave your game and sit down beside me!.....'


----------



## Barliman Butterbur (Jan 18, 2004)

Celebthôl said:


> Maybe, its never been put to the test
> 
> But something tells me that nothing could touch him, like an entire army of Orcs wouldnt be able to kill him. . .



In LOTR, it's said that if Sauron attacked Middle-earth, Bombo would be the last to go...

Lotho


----------



## Belegmacar (Jan 28, 2004)

I know that this is a stupid suggestion, but maybe Tom Bombadil is Eru Himself!!!


----------



## Maerbenn (Jan 28, 2004)

Belegmacar said:


> I know that this is a stupid suggestion, but maybe Tom Bombadil is Eru Himself!!!


From letter #211:


> The One does not physically inhabit any part of Eä.


----------



## jimmyboy (Jan 28, 2004)

Maybe Bombadill was not originally meant to be a part of M-e, but in the _Adventures of Tom Bombadill_ he is certainly connected with it. He goes to Bree IIRC, through part of the Shire, and meets up with Farmer Maggot and his family for an evening of eating and fellowship. He also speaks of the future return of the King, which indicates that he knows of the past, present, and possible future history of the Numenoreans and their descendants.

Most definitely connected with M-e...


----------



## Arvedui (Jan 29, 2004)

Tom Bombadil is, according to Tolkien, the spirit of the Oxford and Berkshire countryside (_Letters, #19)_.
So, as Middle-earth is Tolkien's image of the nature he was very fond of, Tom Bombadil certainly is a part of it.

And, imo, this explains why Tom Bombadil (i.e. the green hills, flowers and trees) would be the last to go. It would take Sauron some time before it all would be destroyed, but destroyed it would be all the same.


----------



## Flame of Udûn (Jan 29, 2004)

jimmyboy said:


> He goes to Bree IIRC, through part of the Shire, and meets up with Farmer Maggot and his family for an evening of eating and fellowship.


How could he go through the Shire to go to Bree, when he lived between them?  And Maggot lives in the Shire anyway, not Bree.


----------



## Inderjit S (Jan 29, 2004)

Bombadil was said to be known to some of the Bucklanders.

We also get expansion of some of his adventures in the Old Forest, some of which are briefly mentioned in LoTr. (i.e when he tells Frodo and co. about badgers and their ridiculous ways, we hear about the time he was dragged down a badger hole, we also get to hear about his first meeting with Goldberry and their marriage and other encounters, with Old Man Willow and a barrow-wight.)


----------



## jimmyboy (Jan 30, 2004)

Flame of Udûn said:


> How could he go through the Shire to go to Bree, when he lived between them?  And Maggot lives in the Shire anyway, not Bree.


Sorry if that was unclear. I didn't mean that he went through the Shire to get to Bree. I meant that among his adventures, he went to Bree, and at another time went through the Shire. See? Clear as mud.


----------



## Lantarion (Jan 30, 2004)

Arvedui said:


> Tom Bombadil is, according to Tolkien, the spirit of the Oxford and Berkshire countryside (Letters, #19).
> So, as Middle-earth is Tolkien's image of the nature he was very fond of, Tom Bombadil certainly is a part of it.


Yes absolutley; that has indeed been put forward and accepted long before. 
What I think that some people want to know is what Tom actually is in terms of categorization within Eä, or Arda rather.
To which I can only add a theory I have expressed before: that Tom Bombadil is some higher form of Ainu, not only sent forth into Arda before anything else but actually Sung into it and set as a part of Arda's very texture. In the end I believe that the Valar, or all the Ainur who had part in the Ainulindalë, perceived or envisioned some inherent being or soul that was to inhabit, or rather _be_ Arda itself; its nature, its beauty, its very essense. As I see it, the Ainur sung him in, and the potency of his spirit (far more than that of a Vala, IMO) caused him to Be. That would be one theory for Goldberry's cryptic answer, "He is".


----------



## Khazad (Feb 1, 2004)

If Tom is a earth spirit, what is Goldberry? A Maia? If she is maiar, how their relationship started? If Goldberry is also a earth spirit, who is (was she called) River Lady? Yavanna? Ilu? Another earth spirit?

Its not only about Tom, but also about Goldberry.


----------



## Inderjit S (Feb 2, 2004)

We get some info. on how Goldberry and Tom met in the 'Adventures of Tom Bombadil' but whether (in context) you can take it seriously is up to you. 

I don't think either are Vala.


----------



## Khazad (Feb 2, 2004)

In Silmarillion forum, under were the dwarfs oldest tread has one message where is pointed that because one ring did not have any effect on Tom, he should be something different then Gandalf, Sauron or Saruman.

Now why ring should have been some dramatic effect on Gandalf for instance? He did not what to take a risk to use it and try if he was strong enough to resist it, but there is no any direct info that it would have been dangerous for maiar to wield it. The one ring do not count out that Tom could not be a maia. Maia is as spiritual being as any other and ring do not neccesarily have any direct or immediate effect on them. 

Now is he a earth spirit? Might be, I still prefer to count him as a maia.


----------



## Arvedui (Feb 2, 2004)

Tolkien once stated that Tom Bombadil was an Enigma.

I can't find the exact quote right now, but I guess that someone will soon arrive and tell where it can be found, if I don't find it first.

So neither Tom nor Goldberry can really be counted among any of the peoples that Tolkien invented to take place in his mythological world.


----------



## Inderjit S (Feb 2, 2004)

I think the Bombadil is a enigma quote comes from Letter #131, but I'm not sure.

The one ring could not effect Sauron in the same way as the others since he made it. He was visible when he fought Elendil and Gil-Galad and when he greeted the Númenóreans and was in Númenór.

Saruman tells the Black Riders that if he had the ring they would be calling him 'lord' but does not talk about him being invisible or any other effects of the ring. Of course this does not disprove anything, but it is interesting nonetheless.


----------



## Arvedui (Feb 2, 2004)

I found it. It is in _Letters # 144._



> And even in a mythological Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally).


----------



## Khazad (Feb 2, 2004)

If there always have to be a enigma then lets Tom be it. I never intended to be over Tolkiens ideas, and I never have read Letters, so thats fine for me. Still in my own nice imaginery M-E Tom will be a maia. Thats just easier for me (no beans into your noses), I like to categorize him under rules of M-E "reality". I can still understand Tolkiens idea about enigma, and approve it.

Now, you said that Goldberry would also be the same. Hmmm....I would like to think about River Women (or Lady). I do not have any Tolkiens books around so I have to rely on my memory (not good). There was some Ulmos maiar and I think there was one who liked calm water, mayby rivers. I cannot say nothing for sure not even was that maia she or he. But if there was she, could she be Goldberry's "mother". Goldberry could have been her servant, some lesser maia.


----------



## Arvedui (Feb 3, 2004)

I agree, Khazad. I must admit that I was a bit too hasty when commenting on Goldberry. IMO, she might well be a maia or something.


----------



## jallan (Feb 3, 2004)

Readers of Tolkien (and of other authors of imagined histories and imagined worlds) are often more interested in fitting things in exactly than the authors are.

The author may prefer that a mysterious stranger remain a mysterious stranger, unless a superior explanation occurs to the author.

If an answer doesn't _come_ to the author about areas of unrevealed history than it is perhaps better for the author to let them remain unrevealed than to force an uninspired answer.


----------



## Khazad (Feb 4, 2004)

In fact I got my answer from debate concerning Goldberry and Tom. Very nice depate and I will give my vote for Grond.

I totally admit that Tom is Tolkiens childhood homes representative, but in M-E there is no Tolkiens childhood home, it do not belong there. Tom will be a enigma right here in our world, but in M-E I would like to "classify" him as something that is "logical" within that frame. Somehow that makes my sleep calmer  

So who is Tom? He is Tolkiens childhood countrysides enigma in constantly changing world, for example.


----------

