# The real reason Galadriel stayed in Doriath



## TheManInTheMoon (Aug 27, 2021)

"Galadriel his sister went not with him to Nargothrond, for in Doriath dwelt Celeborn, kinsman of Thingol, and there was great love between them. Therefore she remained in the Hidden Kingdom, and abode with Melian, and of her learned great lore and wisdom concerning Middle-earth." - published Silmarillion

I've searched through the entire 12 Volumes of History of Middle-earth and there's absolutely no trace of Celeborn as a factor of Galadriel's stay.

It appears that Celeborn is inserted in from the later text *Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn* which is printed in Unfinished Tales; he does not appear at all in either the later Quenta or the Grey Annals, except for a tiny marginal note where he is a Telerin Prince of Aman (both Galadriel and Celeborn were "invented" in The Lord of the Rings so of course neither of them appear in the pre-LOTR Silmarillion texts).

In the later Quenta (LQ §101) it states:

"Yet Galadriel his sister dwelt never in Nargothrond, but remained in Doriath and received the love of Melian, and abode with her, and there learned great lore and wisdom concerning Middle-earth."

In the Grey Annals (GA §75) it states:

"But Galadriel did not depart [added later: from Doriath], and remained long with Melian, for there was much love between them."

The published text blends these statements, but “for in Doriath dwelt Celeborn, kinsman of Thingol,” is an addition that appears to be based on the comment in Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn that “in Doriath she met Celeborn, grandson of Elmo the brother of Thingol” (see UT, 234; see also the introduction to the Second Age portion of appendix B of The Lord of the Rings, where Celeborn is specifically described as “kinsman of Thingol”).

Thus the statement "there was much love between them" was written to refer to Galadriel and Melian but ends up being used to refer to Galadriel and Celeborn in Silmarillion edited by Christopher.


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## m4r35n357 (Aug 27, 2021)

Galadriel & Celeborn were never really properly integrated, as you have pointed out. In later texts JRRT had Celeborn as a dweller in Aman who went across with the Noldor . . .

BTW I am not familiar with the term "later Quenta" or LQ, can you elaborate? I know of QN (~1930), Q (~1937, my favourite, which I call "QS" for some reason!), QS1 (~1951, LotR retcon, closely tied to the Annals of Aman and Grey Annals), and QS2 (~1958, with all the "laws & customs" stuff . . .)


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## TheManInTheMoon (Aug 27, 2021)

Celeborn couldn't be a factor of Galadriel's stay anyway in the Grey Annals (1950-51) because Celeborn wasn't a Prince of Doriath yet. Though there is a 1951 lesser known text which states Celeborn as a Grey-elf. But it seems obvious that this was just a fleeting idea and Tolkien had immediately forgotten that Celeborn is a Sinda and the old idea that he is a Nando had stuck in his head. As it is evident in FotR Galadriel says she crossed the mountains in First Age and met Celeborn. Christopher explains Celeborn was still a Nando in this conception.

It is not a coincidence that Tolkien emphasized hard on the word "long" whenever he wrote about Galadriel's stay in Doriath. He ALWAYS wrote Galadriel "dwelt long in Doriath" or "dwelt long with Melian". Then suddenly in QS2 he omitted the word "long". It's not a coincidence.

Celeborn was turned into a Sinda of Doriath at that time. Hence Galadriel didn't cross the mountains to meet him. Because in this revision she had met him east of the mountains, in Doriath. And the couple never crossed the mountains until Second Age.

By Grey Annals and Later Quenta, I meant 1950s texts. As you noted, Later Quenta 2 is from 1958. But for some reason Celeborn doesn't appear in this text, even though Tolkien had turned him into a Sinda already in Appendices (1955).

Tolkien quite forgot to add Celeborn to the narratives of the Silmarillion, that is Quenta Silmarillion and the Annals concerning First Age and such.

In 1973 Tolkien finally decided to add Celeborn to the narratives of the Silmarillion. He put a marginal note against the Kinslaying passage in the Annals of Aman: 'Finrod and Galadriel (whose husband was of the Teleri) fought against the Noldor'.

This contradicts the passage just written before this. In a page prior to this marginal note, Finrod was with Finarfin. He didn't arrive to the Kinslaying until the battle was already over. But it is evident Tolkien wanted to revise this entire thing.

As for Galadriel and her Telerin husband, in a separate draft Tolkien wrote they had no part in the Rebellion of Feanor. Tolkiengateway wiki says some weird stuff that have no basis about this. Tolkiengateway claims Galadriel and her Telerin husband were present in Tirion during Feanor's speech and Feanor moved Galadriel to depart Aman. That's completely false. Galadriel was at Alqualonde when Feanor revolted. She long desired to leave Aman, long before Feanor ever said anything about revolting. She was going to ask Manwë for leave, but Melkor destroyed the Trees and Feanor revolted and Manwe declared no one is permitted to leave Aman (even Galadriel), and anyone who does comes under the Curse of Mandos.

That is all the 1973 writing, of course. The story was different in all else writings, as you know.

Anyway, Christopher cheapened the friendship of Galadriel and Melian by his editorial choice. I always felt something is off in this passage in published Silmarillion, why Galadriel is staying in Doriath primarily because of Celeborn? Then I read the Grey Annals and Later Quenta and I found indeed Galadriel stayed because of Melian, not because of Celeborn who doesn't even appear as a factor of Galadriel's stay.


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## Alcuin (Aug 28, 2021)

We should consider that in many of the romantic relationships Tolkien presents, the woman is the older, wiser, spiritually more powerful character. Here are some:

Melian > Elu Thingol
Lúthien > Beren
Idril > Tuor
Galadriel > Celeborn
Arwen > Aragorn
Granted we don’t know the age difference between Galadriel and Celeborn, but I think we can see that Galadriel wielded the greater power. It was she that girdled Lórien with magic so that Sauron’s minions could not successfully invade, a border and barrier much akin to Melian’s Girdle of Doriath. 

Galadriel’s mother was Thingol’s niece, so Galadriel was his great-niece and kinswoman; but it seems (or can at least be argued) that after her brothers departed Doriath when Thingol discovered the Kin-slaying at Alqualondë, Galadriel was not required to leave. 

Melian’s foreknowledge of what would happen might also have influenced her interaction with Galadriel. By this, I imply that *Melian meant to “seduce” Elwë (Elu Thingol) and bear Lúthien his child so that a strain of the divine Ainur might enter to into the lineage not of Elves but of Men.* 

If you read the tales of Beren and Lúthien in _Lays of Beleriand_, you cannot help but notice that while Thingol is shocked, outraged, taken aback, and finally infuriated that his daughter Lúthien has abruptly and inexplicably fallen in love with a Mortal Man, Melian is _never surprised_ about this. When Lúthien leads Beren into Menegroth to meet her father, Beren at first avoids the searching eyes of Melian, and is overcome with awe at the grandeur and majesty of Menegroth and particularly of Thingol, who proceeds to berate and debase him. But finally he looks up into the eyes of Lúthien, and his gaze is drawn to Melian’s, at which point he answers Thingol with the dignity and fearless pride of the last of the Chieftains of the House of Bëor, the enemy of Morgoth:
_…names I will not take from thee
of baseborn, spy, or Morgoth's thrall!
Are these the ways of Thingol’s hall?_​Then Melian quietly warned her husband, “O king, forgo thy pride! … O king, take heed!” Thingol demanded a Silmaril in exchange for Lúthien’s hand in marriage, and after Beren departed and Lúthien fled weeping from the audience hall of her father, Melian spoke aloud so that all might hear: 
_… “Counsel cunning-wise,
O king!” she said. “Yet if mine eyes 
lose not their power, ’twere well for thee 
that Beren failed his errantry.
Well for thee, but for thy child 
a dark doom and a wandering wild.”

“I sell not to Men those whom I love”
said Thingol, “whom all things above
I cherish; and if hope there were
that Beren should ever living fare
to the Thousand Caves once more, I swear
he should not ever have seen the air
or light of heaven’s stars again.”
But Melian smiled, and there was pain
as of far knowledge in her eyes;
for such is the sorrow of the wise._​Melian foreknew that Lúthien would love and marry a Mortal Man, and that from their union would come a line of Men of great import to Arda. 

I think Melian also foreknew that Galadriel had some role to play in the development and furtherance of that design, which was not hers, but Eru’s that he placed in her heart in the Ainulindalë: for Melian was among the greatest of singers among the Ainur in Arda, and surpassingly beautiful. Lúthien’s son Dior never knew his grandmother: Melian departed Middle-earth when Thingol died, and returned to Valinor. Dior’s daughter was Elwing the White, most beautiful of the Children of Ilúvatar save only Lúthien. Elwing’s son Elrond was separated from his mother at a young and tender age in the Third Kin-slaying at the Havens of Sirion. (The Third Kin-slaying, like the first, occurred at a seaport: the First was in the Uttermost West of Belegaer, the Third in the East of Belegaer.) Elrond’s daughter Arwen was the most beautiful save only Elwing and Lúthien. But note that *Arwen lived with and learned from Galadriel*, her maternal grandmother, *who was instructed by Melian.* Galadriel was, in effect, like Lúthien, Melian’s pupil. And much that she learned she passed along to Arwen. 

As for Celeborn’s not being a prince of Doriath early on in the development of the tales, I don’t know that I can concur. If I remember correctly, it was late in the tellings of the stories of Galadriel and Celeborn, as Tolkien sought to distance Galadriel from participation in the Rebellion of the Noldor, that Celeborn became a prince of the Teleri of Eldamar. I think when _Lord of the Rings_ was written, Tolkien envisioned him as one of the Sindar, as were his kinsmen Oropher, Thranduil, and Legolas.


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## TheManInTheMoon (Aug 28, 2021)

Alcuin said:


> Galadriel > Celeborn


Galadriel herself disagrees. At least the humble Third Age Galadriel.



Alcuin said:


> Granted we don’t know the age difference between Galadriel and Celeborn,


Celeborn as a Nando was older. Celeborn as son of Elmo is explicitly stated as older than Galadriel in Nature of Middle-earth. Celeborn as grandson of Elmo? I doubt so. I think he was younger. Celeborn as a Teleri seems even further younger, or perhaps Tolkien made a mistake by assuming Galadriel had never met Celeborn during so long of her stays at Alqualondë. It seems so problematic that she only met him after so long at Alqualondë. But then again, that was just a projected draft that was not even finished it's first stage of fleshing out properly.




Alcuin said:


> she passed along to Arwen.


I think of Arwen's banner that Aragorn set on his ship as a direct parallel to Galadriel's teachings. Remember Olwë saying our women and daughters have weaved the most magical sails of the White Ships? And aside from the many strong suggestions we have of Galadriel and her part in this, we also have a version where it is explicitly shown she helped Celeborn in building a ship. Also, that's beside the fact that she can weave unique cloaks.



Alcuin said:


> Tolkien envisioned him as one of the Sindar, as were his kinsmen Oropher, Thranduil, and Legolas.


Oropher was invented in 1969.

Christopher explains that Celeborn could not be a Sinda when Tolkien published FOTR: "Thus, at the outset, it is certain that the earlier conception was that Galadriel went east over the mountains from Beleriand alone, before the end of the First Age, and met Celeborn in his own land of Lórien; this is explicitly stated in unpublished writing, and the same idea underlies Galadriel's words to Frodo in _The Fellowship of the Ring_ II 7, where she says of Celeborn that "He has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him years uncounted; for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat." In all probability Celeborn was in this conception a Nandorin Elf (that is, one of the Teleri who refused to cross the Misty Mountains on the Great Journey from Cuiviénen)."

Why Christopher doesn't say "certainly"? Because there's that 1% chance that Celeborn might have been an Avari of Eriador in that FOTR line. But in no writing he is explicitly stated as such. And I take that 99% chance that he was still a Nando of Lorien, and not that 1% chance that he was a Dark Elf of Eriador who returned to the woods of east of the mountains (Lorien).

In ROTK Appendices Celeborn was turned into a Sinda. But the funny thing is, Tolkien quite forgot this for some time. In a letter written in 1964 to one of his great fans, Tolkien wrote EXPLICITLY that Celeborn was one of the Nandor who rejected to cross the Misty Mountains and go into Valinor in the Great Journey.

Also, a surprise probably, but Celeborn was a Noldo according to Christopher in the first ever draft about his origin. The idea of him being a Noldo was dropped immediately.



Alcuin said:


> Galadriel was, in effect, like Lúthien, Melian’s pupil. And much that she learned she passed along to Arwen.


At least Galadriel wasn't so passive like Melian. She activity took part in setting up Aragorn with Arwen and no one stopped her because no one could. And unlike Melian who barely helped her daughter and her daughter's lover in the Quest for the Silmaril, Galadriel greatly helped both Arwen and Aragorn, especially Aragorn in War of the Ring. Aragorn wouldn't have got far without Galadriel. (And Galadriel wouldn't have got far without Melian)


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## Elthir (Aug 28, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> In a letter written in 1964 to one of his great fans, Tolkien wrote EXPLICITLY that Celeborn was one of the Nandor who rejected to cross the Misty Mountains and go into Valinor in the Great Journey.



As there's no letter concerning this in _The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien_, can you source this one please?

There's an "unpublished" letter to Eileen Elgar that concerns Galadriel and Celeborn, but that's dated
22 September 1963 rather. Is this letter something you noted from the preview of (G)NOME?


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## TheManInTheMoon (Aug 28, 2021)

Elthir said:


> There's an "unpublished" letter to Eileen Elgar that concerns Galadriel and Celeborn, but that's dated
> 22 September 1963


Yes thank you for correcting the date


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## Elthir (Aug 28, 2021)

I see. Anyway, all I'm saying here is that there's no direct reference to Nandorinity, nor to the Misty Mountains specifically, in this letter -- at least not as described in Hammond and Scull,_ The Lord of the Rings, A Reader's Companion_:

"( . . . ) he comments that Celeborn and Galadriel were of different kin: Celeborn was of the branch of the Elves that, in the First Age, was so in love with Middle-earth that they had *refused the call of the Valar to go to Valinor*; he had never seen the Blessed Realm. Now he remained until he had seen the coming of the Dominion of Men. But to an immortal Elf, for whom time was not as it is to mortals, the period in which he was parted from Galadriel would seem brief."

Noting that Avari essentially means "Refusers" . . . *however one interprets* this


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## TheManInTheMoon (Aug 28, 2021)

Thanks, I hadn't checked it out for awhile and I vaguely remembered things from it, or rather say I misremembered things from this letter. 

So do you interpret this as Celeborn being among the Elves of the Great Journey?

I mean, in the conceptions that Celeborn refused the call to go to Valinor, he was a Nando (or at least Avari). 

I mean, Celeborn as grandson of Elmo is kinda impossible to be among those Elves.


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## Elthir (Aug 28, 2021)

Well it's just a letter so it doesn't topple my personal canon-sindarin image


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## Elthir (Aug 29, 2021)

By the way, what was Galadriel's route (the physical path taken) to Doriath?

I have my own answer but I just wanna see other answers 🐲


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## TheManInTheMoon (Aug 29, 2021)

Elthir said:


> By the way, what was Galadriel's route (the physical path taken) to Doriath?


My Arda geography sucks kinda, the same with my real world geography. But didn't Galadriel cross the Grinding Ice for 144 years (according to later version included in Nature of Middle-earth) and this journey and the following battle (Battle of the Lammoth) was so tiring that she grew older 2x times in this journey and then she needed to rest for a while with other princes and her brother in north west of Beleriand.
The path to Doriath then, must've been the safest path, not the one near Nan Dungortheneb or any other dangerous paths. The southwards path must've been most suitable. Or perhaps if there was no danger lurking around, they could go through the forest to the main forest.

Galadriel as the daughter of Finrod Felagund never visited Doriath. Galadriel as the handmaid of Melian already in Valinor followed her legitimately to Middle-earth, and must've been present when her Lady met Thingol. Galadriel as the wife of Celeborn of Aman, as a non-rebel, probably never saw Melian. She probably left Beleriand immediately after she saw there is no hope for her advise.

But the thing is, if we go by Appendix B and the Lay of Leithien, Galadriel MUST be present in Doriath when Luthien returned. In the Lay, Luthien learned how to undo Sauron's fortress; Sauron himself taught her. Unfortunately Christopher wrote it too vague and undetailed in published Silmarillion. Anyway, so naturally and logically, if Galadriel destroying Dol Guldur is canon, then Galadriel must've learnt this spell from Luthien who had learned it from Sauron. And that was near the year 500 First Age. I can't remember the exact date. It was somewhat around 460 FA, IIRC.

UNLESS, Tolkien wanted to change the entire lore about this destroying Sauron's fortresses thing. I don't know how he could do that. It's kinda impossible, without changing the stories radically.

Now these are beside the fact that the Fences of Galadriel is a direct parallel to the Girdle of Melian. Unless Tolkien wanted to retcon this and say Yavanna taught Galadriel to create such magic fences. Which is, of course, ridiculous. Tolkien himself said the Valar had too limited teachings according to Galadriel.


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