# Saruman's Power?



## Odin (Feb 26, 2013)

As an Istari and the White Wizard, Saruman was said to be very powerful. And yet he allowed Isengard to be overrun by the Ents without putting any kind of fight.

And later, he seems to be powerless in the Scouring of the Shire and dies at Wormtongue's hand. Did the loss of his staff leave him so impotent? It seems strange that a wizard should die so easily. It took Durin's Bane to kill Gandalf the Grey and Gandalf the White managed to stand against the Witch-King himself.

Why was Saruman so powerless against his enemies?


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## morgoth145 (Feb 27, 2013)

I believe the reason for Saruman losing much of his power has to do with the fact that he forsake his mission and did not do as he was bid by the Valar, which would mean that his powers would be taken from him.
Correct me if I have forgotten anything as it has been a little while since I last read through LOTR.


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## Odin (Feb 27, 2013)

morgoth145 said:


> I believe the reason for Saruman losing much of his power has to do with the fact that he forsake his mission and did not do as he was bid by the Valar, which would mean that his powers would be taken from him.
> Correct me if I have forgotten anything as it has been a little while since I last read through LOTR.



Interesting view. You're suggesting that the Istari's powers are not intrinsic but rather granted to them by higher powers. This is intriguing, but if Saruman's powers are really given by the Valar why didn't they just take them the minute he turned to evil?


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## morgoth145 (Feb 27, 2013)

Well, to that I do not know the answer, but I believe that either the Valar, or perhaps even Eru took Saruman's powers. Perhaps Manwë did not foresee this happening? Even though many things were revealed to the Valar, not everything was.


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## Maiden_of Harad (Feb 27, 2013)

I thought that all the Valar and the Maia were given their powers by Eru Iluvatar, even though the Valar could give commands to the Istari.

Maybe I'm wrong.


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## Andreth (Feb 28, 2013)

About this subject, I think that it was as had been for Melkor and Sauron: they put their power in their creations, and so they lose it: Morgoth, at the end of the First Age, even if still very powerful, had the most of his power bounded in his creations ( Arda Marred, the orcs, the dragons, etc. ), and Sauron had it in the Ring. I suppose that Saruman had it bounded in his Uruk-hais, and they were in fact powerless against the Ents, because they were much stronger than them; so, Saruman was powerless too.
and, for Wormtongue killing him, I think that from then his power was well nigh spent: he had put it to base purposes ( tormenting the innocent hobbits ) and so was embittered and diminished, without the merest vestige of his former power... And, remember that he was given a Mortal body of an old man, as the other Istari; Gandalf managed to attack the Balrog because he used his Maia powers, that were forbidden to him as an Istar unless absolutely necessary - as the attack of the Balrog was. And Saruman was turned when Wormtongue stabbed him...


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## Odin (Feb 28, 2013)

Andreth said:


> About this subject, I think that it was as had been for Melkor and Sauron: they put their power in their creations, and so they lose it: Morgoth, at the end of the First Age, even if still very powerful, had the most of his power bounded in his creations ( Arda Marred, the orcs, the dragons, etc. ), and Sauron had it in the Ring. I suppose that Saruman had it bounded in his Uruk-hais, and they were in fact powerless against the Ents, because they were much stronger than them; so, Saruman was powerless too.
> and, for Wormtongue killing him, I think that from then his power was well nigh spent: he had put it to base purposes ( tormenting the innocent hobbits ) and so was embittered and diminished, without the merest vestige of his former power... And, remember that he was given a Mortal body of an old man, as the other Istari; Gandalf managed to attack the Balrog because he used his Maia powers, that were forbidden to him as an Istar unless absolutely necessary - as the attack of the Balrog was. And Saruman was turned when Wormtongue stabbed him...



This makes sense, as Saruman appears powerless after his army is destroyed at Helms Deep. And on another note, Saruman does seem to have invested his power in his Uruks. There's a scene where Ugluk seems to be utterly loyal to Saruman. That seems like a form of mind control to me, and if Saruman had to do that to all ten thousand Uruks then it makes sense why he's powerless.


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## Andreth (Feb 28, 2013)

Odin said:


> This makes sense, as Saruman appears powerless after his army is destroyed at Helms Deep. And on another note, Saruman does seem to have invested his power in his Uruks. There's a scene where Ugluk seems to be utterly loyal to Saruman. That seems like a form of mind control to me, and if Saruman had to do that to all ten thousand Uruks then it makes sense why he's powerless.


 Yes... Just as Sauron had done with the Ring, that had his own will bounded inside.


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## Withywindle (Apr 10, 2013)

We should not think of the Istari as simply Maia. Yes, they were in essence Maia, but on being sent to M.E. they accepted certain limitations, or at least a channelling of their power. Certainly much of their "magic" was directed through their staffs, and so when Gandalf broke Saruman´s staff all power of that kind was lost to him. Before losing his staff, Saruman was certainly powerful as compared to other inhabitants of M.E., but he had nothing like the power of Sauron or even Bombadil, both of whom were chief Maia and free to use their native divine powers as they chose, without the limitations imposed upon the Istari (who, were in any case, relatively modest Maia compared to S. and Bombadil). And so we should not expect Saruman to have been able to defend Isengard in the way that S. could defend Mordor.


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## Grond (Apr 11, 2013)

Odin said:


> This makes sense, as Saruman appears powerless after his army is destroyed at Helms Deep. And on another note, Saruman does seem to have invested his power in his Uruks. There's a scene where Ugluk seems to be utterly loyal to Saruman. That seems like a form of mind control to me, and if Saruman had to do that to all ten thousand Uruks then it makes sense why he's powerless.


All of the Istari (Wizards) are Maia which means they are on a spiritual power level with Sauron (who is also a Maia). They are all (according to Tolkien) hugely powerful; however, Sauron is under no restriction in using his power. The Istari (because of the Ban of the Valar on the Noldor and the actions of the Numenoreans in assaulting the Blessed Lands) are only allowed to offer moral support. The are not allowed to use their true powers. This restriction was placed on them before they sailed to Middle-earth from the west. These details are located in either The Silmarillion or Unfinished Tales under the heading "Of the Istari".

Reading this will give you a better understanding of the history behind Sauron and the Istari.

Cheers,

Grond


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