# Melkor & Ancalagon The Black & Gothmog VS Tulkas



## DarkLordMelkor

*Melkor & Ancalagon The Black & Gothmog VS Tulkas*​
_Battle takes place in Mordor._
_Basic knowledge for both sides._
_Fight till death._
_Who wins and why._
_I just want to see who people believe can win this battle.. _​
@Erestor Arcamen 
What are your thoughts on this battle..?


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## Erestor Arcamen

I think Tulkas would beat Ancalagon and Gothmog since he's a valor.
Melkor I think would be a little more of a challenge but I think he'd hold his own and win.


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## mallos

Melkor, Ancalagon and Gothmog would win. They just outnumber Tulkas three to one.


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## DarkLordMelkor

mallos said:


> Melkor, Ancalagon and Gothmog would win. They just outnumber Tulkas three to one.



_Yeah but Tulkas could manhandle Melkor without too much trouble, do you think a Maia and a Dragon would just make the win..?!_


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## mallos

Yes, Melkor isn't really the greatest warrior, being nearly beaten by an elf and all, but didn't it take Valar _and _Eärendil to take Ancalagon down?


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## morgoth145

Are we taking Morgoth at his greatest? If I recall correctly, during the days where Arda was still being shaped he warred with all the Valar, Tulkas included. At this stage he might be able to overpower Tulkas with the help of a corrupted Maia or two. But if we're taking the mostly dispersed Morgoth who has imbued Arda with most of his essence, I doubt whether he could stand against Tulkas, even with the help.


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## mallos

It says at the top that the battle has to take place in Mordor, so we could take it that Morgoth would be at his least powerful, but then Ancalagon and Gothmog should be dead, so I suppose it all depends on what you pick.


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## DarkLordMelkor

morgoth145 said:


> Are we taking Morgoth at his greatest? If I recall correctly, during the days where Arda was still being shaped he warred with all the Valar, Tulkas included. At this stage he might be able to overpower Tulkas with the help of a corrupted Maia or two. But if we're taking the mostly dispersed Morgoth who has imbued Arda with most of his essence, I doubt whether he could stand against Tulkas, even with the help.





mallos said:


> It says at the top that the battle has to take place in Mordor, so we could take it that Morgoth would be at his least powerful, but then Ancalagon and Gothmog should be dead, so I suppose it all depends on what you pick.



All of them would be in their prime.

As for my personal thought based of the facts, is that Team wins with the highest difficulty.


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## Ingolmin

As we can see in the history, Tulkas was a fearless Valar and Melkor was even afraid of him when he was in fury. So, if he defeat Melkor or not, there is a 90% chance that Melkor will run away. And for Ancalagon the Black and Gothmog are to easy to defeat for him as Gothmog being a Maiar has lesser power as compared to him, Ancalagon is only a dragon who can slain by an arrow and if Earendill could kill him, it would be a very easy task for Tulkas.


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## AhmedWafaa

Sorry if the post was too old , but just to highlight points :

I would say if you mean Melkor in his prime form and before even the war against the other's valar , and before he changed into the darkness before leaving the light 

Melkor would crash , smash , and kick Tulkas nor even him alone but with some of valar and by himself alone and without the need of maiar and here are things to mention

*Tulkas was powerless when ungoliant insnares Tulkas in net and confused Orome and didn't see anything , and he was beating the air in vain and grow powerless and hanged there until the ungoliant and melkor escaped and the darkness disappeared and it’s net faded,* (so it’s still could keep them permanent without the intervention of other valar and all the primordial powers of them were diminshed, were Tulkas could scatter all the darkness before him, yet he couldn't in companion with Orome from freeing themselves and scattering the shadows therin) , so no point of truth that he is incompetent , nonetheless Tulkas wouldn’t be a match for Melkor in his prime form before he dissipated his power and Tulkas came to the aid of valar , where Melker was able to match 14 of valar that time , until Tulkas arrived and tipped the balance , so Tulkas would be defeated but mostly by many maiars ( like many dragons and balrogs and other primal spirits ,sauron in his prime form , saruman as a maia but his power is unlimited but for sure not just asimple army , at the same times all the valar lost their power overtime and they weary so even for Tulkas and during the thirs age wouldn’t be as powerful as the time he descends to Arda , plus the winged dragons were able to let the Valar flee back and those are fallen maiar but not the creation of Melkor , When Tulkas wrestled with Melkor , it’s said wrestled with him not directly crushed him and cast him away and even J.R.R states that Sauron power were effectively better in first age than Melkor in the second age , so you could imagine until which level that melkor lost his power to the level that he was at a class the mightiest Valar to reduced below the Maiar level , add to this the same goes to other valar (like Tulkas).


======================= 
atop of that being less grade doesn't mean they can't kill you if they overpowerd you , for example sauron destroyed first by man , Azug killed by man which it was fallen maia , ungoliant caught Tulkas and humiliate him.


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## Miguel

I'm thinking they might have taken Melkor wielding fire and ice as reference to create this game character:







There's also this character called "Sauron" in this game:


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## Olorgando

This is a bit of a slippery question, as JRRT’s view of Melko(r)’s power relative to the other Valar shifted markedly over time – and only in one direction, down. I’m talking about Melko’s initial power, not the bit about his dissipating it (“Morgoth’s Ring”) so massively, a concept I believe also to have been there from the beginning (but was it?).

But then, what made Melko so outstanding in the early mythology was his having a share of all (?) the other Valars’ powers – a *share*, mind you, he was not the equal of any given Vala’s power in that Vala’s specialty! Which brings me to Tulkas: he was definitely a single skill guy – fighting. And there, no one was even *remotely* a match for him. I have vague memories of early stories of how the Valar, in their war on Melko because of the coming of the Elves, were at Utumno. Melko was having none of Tulkas just marching in on him, and the Valar pretended to bring Tulkas before him bound in the chain Angainor. So even this maximum-power Melko knew he didn’t stand a chance against an unfettered Tulkas! (And maybe Tulkas was also the only one able to carry that chain - not certain there.)

Taking that as a starting point, I can’t resist slipping into “Monty Python” modes for the other two:
Gothmog: Tulkas would have given him a drop-kick that sent him into orbit (meaning we need a round-earth for this scenario) 
Ancalagon: Tulkas would have tied him into complicated seamen’s knots 
And though not a part of the original question, Ungoliant was mentioned above. Now why were she and Melkor high-tailing it out of Valinor? Mostly Tulkas being after them, and Ungoliant had to resort to spewing out impenetrable fogs to mask their escape. Why didn’t she just turn around and face Tulkas? Because she knew Tulkas would have squashed her by stomping her into the ground, like I could with the spiders we have around here. 

Monty Python off.

_(Actually, when I find a spider in our apartment, I capture them with a glass and postcard, and release them from our balcony.) 🙂_


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## Miguel

Olorgando said:


> Now why were she and Melkor high-tailing it out of Valinor? Mostly Tulkas being after them, and Ungoliant had to resort to spewing out impenetrable fogs to mask their escapeShe



The Ungoliant didn't just mask their escape, she basically rendered Tulkas, Oromë and his entire army of Maiar useless.




> _(Actually, when I find a spider in our apartment, I capture them with a glass and postcard, and release them from our balcony.) 🙂_








☮


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## Gothmog

AhmedWafaa said:


> Sorry if the post was too old , but just to highlight points :
> 
> I would say if you mean Melkor in his prime form and before even the war against the other's valar , and before he changed into the darkness before leaving the light
> 
> Melkor would crash , smash , and kick Tulkas nor even him alone but with some of valar and by himself alone and without the need of maiar and here are things to mention
> 
> *Tulkas was powerless when ungoliant insnares Tulkas in net and confused Orome and didn't see anything , and he was beating the air in vain and grow powerless and hanged there until the ungoliant and melkor escaped and the darkness disappeared and it’s net faded,* (so it’s still could keep them permanent without the intervention of other valar and all the primordial powers of them were diminshed, were Tulkas could scatter all the darkness before him, yet he couldn't in companion with Orome from freeing themselves and scattering the shadows therin) , so no point of truth that he is incompetent , nonetheless Tulkas wouldn’t be a match for Melkor in his prime form before he dissipated his power and Tulkas came to the aid of valar , where Melker was able to match 14 of valar that time , until Tulkas arrived and tipped the balance , so Tulkas would be defeated but mostly by many maiars ( like many dragons and balrogs and other primal spirits ,sauron in his prime form , saruman as a maia but his power is unlimited but for sure not just asimple army , at the same times all the valar lost their power overtime and they weary so even for Tulkas and during the thirs age wouldn’t be as powerful as the time he descends to Arda , plus the winged dragons were able to let the Valar flee back and those are fallen maiar but not the creation of Melkor , When Tulkas wrestled with Melkor , it’s said wrestled with him not directly crushed him and cast him away and even J.R.R states that Sauron power were effectively better in first age than Melkor in the second age , so you could imagine until which level that melkor lost his power to the level that he was at a class the mightiest Valar to reduced below the Maiar level , add to this the same goes to other valar (like Tulkas).
> 
> 
> =======================
> atop of that being less grade doesn't mean they can't kill you if they overpowerd you , for example sauron destroyed first by man , Azug killed by man which it was fallen maia , ungoliant caught Tulkas and humiliate him.


Much as I would love to say that Tulkas would lose the fact is the only reason Melkor escaped from Valinor is because Ungoliant covered their retreat with darkness.


> And Tulkas was as one caught in a black net at night, and he stood powerless and beat the air in vain. But when the Darkness had passed, it was too late: Melkor had gone whither he would, and his vengeance was achieved.



All this means is that Tulkas could not see to pursue them and while this would allow for escape, it would not help much, if any, in a fight where once Tulkas had hold of any of them he would defeat them one at a time.


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## Olorgando

Miguel said:


> The Ungoliant didn't just mask their escape, she basically rendered Tulkas, Oromë and his entire army of Maiar useless.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ☮


By masking their escape, making it impossible for them to see anything, with her impenetrable fogs.
Which brings me to a point that just popped up in my mind: What was Manwë doing at this time? Being wimpy over the trees somewhere?
I mean, his title Súlimo is Quenya for "Lord of Winds"; he should have been able to whip up a storm that would have blasted Ungoliant's fog away in nothing flat.
_(I know the external answer to that question the (manu-) script called for their escape, otherwise none of that action in the Sil._  )


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## Gothmog

Not really being wimpy and it is likely that his winds would have had little effect over the darkness that surrounded Ungoliant.


> But Manwë from his high seat looked out, and his eyes alone pierced through the night, until they saw a Darkness beyond dark which they could not penetrate,


So, while he could see through the outer fringes of Ungoliant's cover even his view was blocked where she was.


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## Olorgando

OK, point taken - about him having the sharpest sight of all in Aman.
It doesn't say anything either way about his having used the winds which should have been at his command.
One might speculate that even he thought they might not be effective.
But he did not even try, apparently _(the professor might have given me a decidedly "not amused" look at this statement, suggesting I go back to reading my superhero comics …_ 😞_)_
Anyway, I won't retract my nag, and I continue to view Manwë as having just a bit too much of a wimp in him to be an effective guardian of Arda. 😝


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## Gothmog

The information about his use of winds comes at the beginning of the next chapter.


> After a time a great concourse gathered about the Ring of Doom; and the Valar sat in shadow, for it was night. But the stars of Varda now glimmered overhead, and the air was clear; for the winds of Manwë had driven away the vapours of death and rolled back the shadows of the sea.


So it would seem to be the case that either his winds would have no effect on the central darkness around Ungoliant or that they would take time to remove them. Unless of course he chose to use such strong winds as would remove the buildings and Elves also.

I cannot argue against him not being as effective as he could have been. His biggest flaw was that he was too trusting of Melkor and not trusting enough of those who were standing with him to protect Arda.


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## Olorgando

Gothmog said:


> … Unless of course he chose to use such strong winds as would remove the buildings and Elves also. ...


OK, so he can get rid of the stuff, though it might take time. As far as I know, little is known about the settlement in Valinor. I'd guess that the Elves (mostly Vanyar) would not stray very far from Taniquetil. Probably furthest away would have been Fëanor's abode during his exile, where Finwë was killed when Melkor stole the Silmarils. Most likely towards the north. But Melkor and Ungoliant were well past that and further north by the time news of the theft came. And were basically being pursued by Tulkas and Oromë. I would think that those two worthies would think little of a category 5 hurricane, and Tulkas would slap aside the strongest conceivable tornado easily. So where's the problem?
_(Maybe I should just stop nagging at Manwë again for a while.)_


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## Gothmog

I don't think there are any writings that show one way or another if the winds of Manwë could affect the core darkness surrounding Ungoliant. So I will just have to leave it with my view that Manwë did what he could with his control of the airs but even that would not remove the darkness where Ungoliant was sufficiently to allow Tulkas to find them.


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## Grond

Gothmog said:


> I don't think there are any writings that show one way or another if the winds of Manwë could affect the core darkness surrounding Ungoliant. So I will just have to leave it with my view that Manwë did what he could with his control of the airs but even that would not remove the darkness where Ungoliant was sufficiently to allow Tulkas to find them.


Ungoliant's darkness was likely impenetrable by any save Eru. Her hunger was so great that she likely devoured herself as well as nearly annihilating both Melkor and his Balrogs.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner

Although, as I've said elsewhere, I have little interest in these Superman vs. the Hulk games, I'll venture here to say that it's suggestive that Tolkien allied Ungoliant with Melkor.

He didn't use the terms, AFAIK, but nowadays, Melkor would be the very model of a malignant narcissist. And Ungoliant is the embodiment of total nihilism. It strikes me that Tolkien was exploring the relationship between the two archetypes; they may not be the same, but one seems to shade into the other. For instance, "self-love" can easily become self-destructiveness. I'm not sure what conclusion he came to, but the fact that the two turned on one another is interesting.


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## Miguel

Melko and the Valar could not stop Ungoliant once great but the Belryg could.


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## Olorgando

Miguel said:


> Melko and the Valar could not stop Ungoliant once great but the Belryg could.


To be truthful, that is one scene that has never made sense to me. Balrogs were taken down by two Noldorin Elves, Ecthelion (who took down the boss Balrog, Gothmog) and Glorfindel, and a hampered Maia, Gandalf the *Grey*.
And these wimps are supposed to chase away an arachnid that Melkor couldn't handle.
Not one of JRRT's better days as a writer when he wrote that.


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## Grond

Miguel said:


> Melko and the Valar could not stop Ungoliant once great but the Belryg could.


Multiple Ainu Balrogs. The inference was that Ungoliant was getting ready to consume Melkor and all he held. It sounds as if all of the _Valaraukar emerged from Angband to protect their god and it took all of them just to drive her off. One can wonder what would have happened if she turned to fight. She had just drained/absorbed all of the power of the Trees and all of the power of the jewels of Feanur, save for the Silmarils. Methinks she would have fared well (think a wholly evil Tom Bombadil._


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## Olorgando

I just had a thought. Maybe the best thing Melkor could have done was let Ungoliant swallow the Silmarils. The had burnt *his* hands (that's why he had them put in his crown). One of them drove Carcharoth mad with pain. All three might quite well have destroyed Ungoliant. All that goof Melkor would then have needed to do was sift through Ungoliant's charred remains to pluck them out again - of have his Balrogs do this messy stuff for him if he longer had the stomach for such stuff. But he was just so greedy, handing over the deadly Silmarils never entered his mind. Typical baddie blindsidedness. 😜


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## Squint-eyed Southerner

If Ungoliant fits the "back hole" model, I'd doubt the silmarils would have survived.


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## Olorgando

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> If Ungoliant fits the "back hole" model, I'd doubt the silmarils would have survived.


Albert born in Ulm (Germany) could never have read the entire "trilogy"; he died sveral months before RoTK was published.
His theories (especially the general one) seem to include stuff that can wipe out (smaller?) black holes.
And the Silmarils were the casing (mad genius Fëanor), content from the Two Trees made by Yavanna, and hallowed by Varda according to the published Silmarillion, chapter 7 "Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor." Nah. Ungoliant is smoking charcoal if "she" chugs (or whatever) three Silmarils.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner

They were created to hold, or "imprison", depending on viewpoint, the light of the Two Trees -- the Trees which Ungoliant _killed _by drinking their sap (read: light). 

I still feel they wouldn't have caused her the least indigestion.


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## Gothmog

Olorgando said:


> I just had a thought. Maybe the best thing Melkor could have done was let Ungoliant swallow the Silmarils. The had burnt *his* hands (that's why he had them put in his crown). One of them drove Carcharoth mad with pain. All three might quite well have destroyed Ungoliant. All that goof Melkor would then have needed to do was sift through Ungoliant's charred remains to pluck them out again - of have his Balrogs do this messy stuff for him if he longer had the stomach for such stuff. But he was just so greedy, handing over the deadly Silmarils never entered his mind. Typical baddie blindsidedness. 😜


It would seem that the Valar had less faith in the ability of the Silmarils to survive being swallowed by Unoliant:


> And thus the fear of Yavanna that the Silmarils would be swallowed up and fall into nothingness did not come to pass; but they remained in the power of Morgoth.


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## Olorgando

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> They were created to hold, or "imprison", depending on viewpoint, the light of the Two Trees -- the Trees which Ungoliant _killed _by drinking their sap (read: light).
> I still feel they wouldn't have caused her the least indigestion.


Yo. Read my above post. Yavanna for the trees. Über-nutcase Noldorin Fëanor for the cases. And Varda, who had Melkor defecating into underwear way back when with her star-making.
These were involved in getting the Silmarils to their potency. Common error to attribute it only to Fëanor. Three Silmarils would have turned Ungoliant into charcoal.
A very big heap of charcoal. But charcoal nonetheless. OK. I fear no spiders … 😛


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## Miguel

Olorgando said:


> To be truthful, that is one scene that has never made sense to me. Balrogs were taken down by two Noldorin Elves, Ecthelion (who took down the boss Balrog, Gothmog) and Glorfindel, and a hampered Maia, Gandalf the *Grey*.
> And these wimps are supposed to chase away an arachnid that Melkor couldn't handle.
> Not one of JRRT's better days as a writer when he wrote that.



Take into consideration it was all of them attacking Ungweliantë at once and the two Elves and Gandalf died.



Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> If Ungoliant fits the "back hole" model, I'd doubt the silmarils would have survived.



She does fit that model. Photons have zero mass yet black holes can pull them in, and actual matter of course.

Btw, quotes:


> The black hole would then lose the rest of its mass in a short amount of time as abrupt explosions—we can detect these explosions as gamma ray bursts. The end.


Balrogs might have been more capable in dealing with her than others.


> As Hawking says, the black holes would evaporate. During evaporation, the black hole emits energy in the form of the positive particles that escape. The more massive the back hole, the more energy would be released.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner

I placed "black hole" in quotation marks because I was speaking of figurative, rather than literal, black holes. I'm sure Tolkien didn’t think of Ungoliant as a black hole!

What I meant is what I said earlier: she functions as a symbol of nihilism, annihilating everything by "eating" it. I'm away from my library again, so can't supply quotes, though the one from Gothmog indicates what the Ainur thought.

But I base my idea on the structure of the imagery; Ungoliant is the archetype of unchecked destruction through sheer "appetite".


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## Miguel

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> But I base my idea on the structure of the imagery; Ungoliant is the archetype of unchecked destruction through sheer "appetite".



Yes, exactly as a black hole 😛


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## Squint-eyed Southerner

Jack Arnold strikes again!


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## Grond

Olorgando said:


> Yo. Read my above post. Yavanna for the trees. Über-nutcase Noldorin Fëanor for the cases. And Varda, who had Melkor defecating into underwear way back when with her star-making.
> These were involved in getting the Silmarils to their potency. Common error to attribute it only to Fëanor. Three Silmarils would have turned Ungoliant into charcoal.
> A very big heap of charcoal. But charcoal nonetheless. OK. I fear no spiders … 😛


Another topic on which we disagree. Ungoliant had just consumed the light of both trees. Even Yavanna feared they would be lost. So... You're inferring the Silmarils, made by an elf, were more powerful than The two Trees that were made by gods? I find nothing in the Sil to infer that Yavanna and Varda aided him in the making of the Silmarils. What are your sources for this surmise?


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## Olorgando

Grond said:


> Another topic on which we disagree. Ungoliant had just consumed the light of both trees. Even Yavanna feared they would be lost. So... You're inferring the Silmarils, made by an elf, were more powerful than The two Trees that were made by gods.?


Yes. Because "all" Fëanor did was build the casings. The Silmarils contained the liquid light from *both* trees. And they were hallowed by Varda, as I mentioned very much a bête noir for Melkor, Varda the star-kindler. And for all his faults, in some skills Fëanor seems even to have *surpassed* the gods, specifically Aulë, and was in this respect the most god-like of the Elves. Too bad he kind of picked Melkor as a role model. And in all probability it was with the Silmaril that Eärendil trashed Ancalagon.


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## Grond

Olorgando said:


> Yes. Because "all" Fëanor did was build the casings. The Silmarils contained the liquid light from *both* trees. And they were hallowed by Varda, as I mentioned very much a bête noir for Melkor, Varda the star-kindler. And for all his faults, in some skills Fëanor seems even to have *surpassed* the gods, specifically Aulë, and was in this respect the most god-like of the Elves. Too bad he kind of picked Melkor as a role model. And in all probability it was with the Silmaril that Eärendil trashed Ancalagon.


Yavanna made the trees.


Olorgando said:


> Yes. Because "all" Fëanor did was build the casings. The Silmarils contained the liquid light from *both* trees. And they were hallowed by Varda, as I mentioned very much a bête noir for Melkor, Varda the star-kindler. And for all his faults, in some skills Fëanor seems even to have *surpassed* the gods, specifically Aulë, and was in this respect the most god-like of the Elves. Too bad he kind of picked Melkor as a role model. And in all probability it was with the Silmaril that Eärendil trashed Ancalagon.


And the very trees that were "created" by Yavanna and infused with light by Varda were consumed and only made Ungoliant stronger. Your logic belies the facts as laid out in the Silmarillion. Everything Ungoliant consumed made her stronger which is illustrated in every example of her interactions in the books.

Your assertion isn't supported by the Silmarilion proper. Everything we see in the books portrays Ungoliant as a hugely powerful, Vala like being on a level with Melkor and the other Valar. They would have no more effect on her than would have Sauron's ring.


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## Olorgando

I have posted my opinion that JRRT was a bit over the top in his earlier phases - BoLT, mainly - in making his baddies, mostly Melkor (but also Ungoliant, and there were these Loki-like Valinoreans early on), rather over-powerful; and that as shown in "Myths Transformed" in HoMe volume 10 "Morgoth's Ring", he was straying in the same excessive territory (and never mind his "Mannish tradition" delusion, which simply doesn't work with Bilbo's, Frodo's and Sam's "Red Book of Westmarch"). What I have called, perhaps heretically, his Peter Jackson prefiguration.
BoLT was the young JRRT. The writings from "Morgoth's Ring" on were the ageing, exhausted (by the singular effort of writing his masterpiece, LoTR) JRRT. He spent his best years writing "The Hobbit" and "The Lord of the Rings". He would have wished, apparently, to have spent them to continue writing "The Silmarillion". We can all be thankful he didn't.
Now details about this may be in parts if HoMe that I simply haven't memorized. But I remember an early version of the death of Huor, Tuor's father, of having him slaughtering Balrogs with his fearsome axe. And in an early version of "The Fall of Gondolin", where among those slaughtered by some Elven troops is said "and they were Balrogs" (later changed to "and there were Balrogs"). What I don't know is from what phases of his father's writings Christopher had to glean this whole Ungoliant business. My guess goes to the early, über-monster phase of JRRT's writing. How should this Ungoliant have ever mated with anything to produce, after a long lineage, Shelob? Who was sent packing (with not a little of her own doing) by the Hobbit Sam? I mean even in the real world, lots of spider males are the after-sex snack of their mates. I don't see Ungoliant even waiting this long, she would just gobble up anything without waiting for "entertainment". But how do these early-phase Balrogs (hardly better than the later Uruk-hai), no matter how many of them, manage to drive off Ungoliant? She would have munched them like popcorn. JRRT (much?) later seriously uprated the Balrogs in saying that there had only ever been seven of them; but is this ridiculous Ungoliant scene concurrent with the seven-Balrog phase? And the bit about the rumor of her going off south and then devouring herself - again not a good writing day for JRRT when he wrote that, not at all.
I mentioned Yavanna as creator of the trees in my short, rather brusque post of just past midnight today my time above. Yes, Ungoliant grew stronger as she consumed the sap (light) of the trees - one after another. (This concept of Ungoliant getting stronger no matter what she does - I'm sorry (actually not), I can only describe that as brain-dead!) Mingling the light, as was done in the Silmarils, could very well have increased the potency by several orders of magnitude. By the way, Varda had nothing to do with the creation of the Two Trees. She rather took silver dews from the vats of Telperion, and made new and brighter stars [for the soon-to-awaken Elves]. Who was involved was Nienna, one of the three great Valier. Fëanor was Valar-like in the creation of the casings for the Silmarils. And Varda hallowed them. I see them, and will not change my mind, as being deadly to all evil things. Including Ungoliant.


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## Grond

In 20+ years on TTF, I've never been accused of being "brain dead", until now. Since insults fly, I could state my opinion that you're analysis of this subject reminds me of a college professor who reads the books and can recite the concepts, but doesn't apply them accurately in real world situations, or in this case Middle-earth situations. 

I'd rather say that we have differing opinions as to the author's intent, both based on factual information presented in the books. I guess I'll leave it at that.


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## Erestor Arcamen

While debate is great, whether it's heated or casual, insults of any kind aren't tolerated. We have a great, tight-knit community here at TTF. If we don't agree with someone else's opinion or believe that they're wrong, there's nothing wrong with that but please keep the debating civil. We're all in this community together to discuss our love of Tolkien and his legendarium. It's not worth ruining the environment throwing shade at someone because of their differing beliefs. 

I'll trust that we can resolve this as adults without any Moderator actions.


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## Olorgando

Grond said:


> In 20+ years on TTF, I've never been accused of being "brain dead", until now. Since insults fly, I could state my opinion that you're analysis of this subject reminds me of a college professor who reads the books and can recite the concepts, but doesn't apply them accurately in real world situations, or in this case Middle-earth situations.
> 
> I'd rather say that we have differing opinions as to the author's intent, both based on factual information presented in the books. I guess I'll leave it at that.


Got a bit carried away there, sorry, Grond. I certainly never meant to imply anything of the sort about you. If at all, I would be calling JRRT's own concept of Ungoliant brain-dead - or PJ-ish, which can amount to the same thing - but to that opinion I stand. JRRT had patches of bad writing - pretty much all to be found in HoMe. And Christopher had pretty much an unsolvable problem in getting the disparate, sometimes contradictory fragments sorted into a publishable Silmarillion - and did a pretty good job with what he had to work with. And I also reamin glad he left most of what he published from "Morgoth's Ring" onward out of the Sil.


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## Olorgando

Olorgando said:


> ... (This concept of Ungoliant getting stronger no matter what she does - I'm sorry (actually not), I can only describe that as brain-dead!) ...





Grond said:


> In 20+ years on TTF, I've never been accused of being "brain dead", until now.


No, Grond, you *still* have not been accused of any such thing. I am *extremely* allergic to being misquoted.


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## Gothmog

Some things to remember about Ungoliant, she was not "All-powerful" nor particularly brave. She was not able to destroy much at all, infact the only reason she could kill the trees was because Melkor stabbed them first with his spear and created the wounds that Ungoliant could drink from and through which her poison was able to enter them. What she could do, and do well, was to "Eat" light and out of it create darkness.


> Thence she had crept towards the light of the Blessed Realm; for she hungered for light and hated it.
> 
> In a ravine she lived, and took shape as a spider of monstrous form, weaving her black webs in a cleft of the mountains. There she sucked up all light that she could find, and spun it forth again in dark nets of strangling gloom, until no light more could come to her abode; and she was famished.





> So the great darkness fell upon Valinor. Of the deeds of that day much is told in the _Aldudénië_, that Elemmirë of the Vanyar made and is known to all the Eldar. Yet no song or tale could contain all the grief and terror that then befell. The Light failed; but the Darkness that followed was more than loss of light. In that hour was made a Darkness that seemed not lack but a thing with being of its own: for it was indeed made by malice out of Light, and it had power to pierce the eye, and to enter heart and mind, and strangle the very will.


Ungoliant was capable of destroying anything to do with Light. The Silmarils would have been another snack to her with possibly the comment "That's a spicy meatball" 

So, now to the problem of the Balrogs driving Ungoliant away. I have already pointed out that she was not brave and certainly not all-powerful even after the additions of Melkor and the Trees. While she could, no doubt, make short work of one or two lesser beings was now faced with more than two Balrogs (perhaps the "7" of the later tradition?) so after the whips had cut away the webs she would have then likely been surrounded by the Balrogs who at the very least would have inflicted many very painful wounds causing her to choose to leave. It is even possible that all of the Balrogs plus (a weakened) Melkor could have destroyed her had she remained to press the battle.


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## Miguel

Gothmog said:


> nor particularly brave



In Avathar she was not brave but became more daring as she grew hungry. 



Gothmog said:


> she was not "All-powerful"



She almost ate Melko, the mighty and accursed 🏴


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## Gothmog

Miguel said:


> In Avathar she was not brave but became more daring as she grew hungry.
> 
> 
> 
> She almost ate Melko, the mighty and accursed 🏴


But would not go into Valinor until Melkor persuaded her. As fore almost eating Melkor, this was after she had been given more power by Melkor himself plus her feasting on the trees and vats but this did not give her more bravery or allow her to overcome the additional force of the Balrogs.


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## Miguel

Gothmog said:


> But would not go into Valinor until Melkor persuaded her. As fore almost eating Melkor, this was after she had been given more power by Melkor himself plus her feasting on the trees and vats but this did not give her more bravery or allow her to overcome the additional force of the Balrogs.



After having all those gems and soup is what i meant, If more gems had been consumed i think everyone would have been eaten eventually. I think Melko would never have allowed Ungoliant to grow that much in Udûn as it was obviously a bad idea but in Valinor he was more in a - _"I'll do anything to sink this ship" _mentality than ever.

Btw i was wondering about something:


> and even after Ungoliant herself departed, and went whither she would into the forgotten south of the world



Is this the south land also known as "Dark Land"?, this place is/was? said to be unlit by sun and moon.

Also:


> Yet some have said that she ended long ago, when in her uttermost famine she devoured herself at last



Is this to be taken as fact or is it just some legend they made up and never really knew what happened?. IIRC, Númenóreans were the only ones who reached the coasts of that place in the 2nd Age.

1st Age:






Sorry i forgot this map, 2nd Age:


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## Olorgando

Gothmog said:


> Some things to remember about Ungoliant, she was not "All-powerful" ...


As were none even of the Valar, though in the end no one expended himself as much as Melkor did. But JRRT seems to me to be going a bit overboard in describing Ungoliant. Not as far as in the overly detailed and over-the-top descriptions in the tale of the sun and moon in BoLT 1, but she does not seem to get weaker at any point. She belches out clouds of darkness so thick as to confound the capabilities of Manwë (for whom a cat 5 hurricane should have been a piece of cake), Tulkas and Oromë - which should have made her shrink considerably, but there is no mention of this. On the contrary, when she had consumed all of the gems that Melkor had stolen except for the three Silmarils, she seems massively more monstrous than before. So where's there a problem about spewing out clouds of darkness so thick the Balrogs - including the later uprated seven - would have felt like they were wading neck-deep in mud? All seven Balrogs just do not come close to evening the scales with one Tulkas, not by an order of magnitude. So she is more powerful than when she confounded the most powerful Valar - but can't do the same with, comparatively, chicken droppings like Balrogs? Ouch, my disbelief suspenders feel like they're close to tearing …


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## Gothmog

Yes. Ungoliant belched out clouds of darkness created out of the light of the trees to avoid the pursuit of Tulkas, Orome and all the rest that she knew were going to chase her in Valinor. She then used clouds of darkness to escape from the Balrogs who turned up and interrupted her discussion with Melkor concerning due payment. The only real difference is the fact that while in Valinor both of them knew that they were in immediate danger from the Valar and therefore needed cover from the moment that they attacked the Trees. In Lammoth there was not the imminent danger so Ungoliant did not start producing her darkness until the Balrogs had already attacked. Once she did so it was even simpler to leave then than it had been in Valinor.


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## Olorgando

Gothmog said:


> ... In Lammoth there was not the imminent danger so Ungoliant did not start producing her darkness until the Balrogs had already attacked.


Still scratching my head.
In chapter 9 of the published Quenta Sil, "Of the Flight of the Noldor", about on the third page of that chapter, the "action" returns to Morgoth (now so called) and Ungoliant.
"... and they came to those lands that lay north of the Firth of Drengist. _Now Morgoth was drawing near (we'll see about that "near" shortly) to the ruins of Angband, where his great western stronghold had been; and Ungoliant perceived his hope, and knew that here he would seek to escape from her_, and she stayed him, demanding that he fulfil his promise.
… Then Morgoth sent forth a terrible cry, that echoed in the mountains. Therefore that region was called Lammoth; … Deep in forgotten places that cry was heard. _Far beneath the ruined halls of Angband, in vaults to which the Valar in the haste of their assault had not descended, Balrogs lurked still_, awaiting ever the return of their Lord; and now swiftly they arose, and passing over Hithlum they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire."

Wow. For someone who lurked deep in the south of Valinor before Morgoth's visit, Ungoliant seems to have a pretty firm grasp of the geography of north-western Middle-earth. Anyway, she definitely had every reason to distrust Morgoth, and to guard against danger even if it was not quite imminent; but apparently she didn't. 🙄
The distance from Angband to Lammoth. Difficult, as we do not have quite the quality of maps for Beleriand as we do for Third Age Eriador, Wilderland, Gondor and Mordor. But I would think that the minimum distance going by Fonstad's map (which may have Thangorodrim and Angband too far south!) is 300 miles. The speed of sound in air is 767 mph; just for his *yell *to get to Thangorodrim would have taken 23.5 minutes (OK, through water the speed of sound is higher, there it would have taken 5.5 minutes; through iron about 94 seconds; rock of the earth's crust would be faster that water, but slower than solid iron).
And those Balrogs again. Very deep underground, maybe as deep as where Gandalf and the last of them ended up after the fall from Durin's Bridge in Moria. GtG and tBoM spent 8 days getting from there to the peak of Zirakzigil ... OK, that Balrog wasn't taking the shortest way to any of the exits from Moria, he must have looked like a huge rabbit zigging and zagging all the time. But the Angband Balrogs must have taken some minutes to get out at least.
Now to get them to Lammoth, 300 miles away. OK, we've got the speed of sound above, and how long that needs. Maybe an argument pro their having wings? 🙄
Now whatever renditions anyone has ever come up with for Balrogs, nothing remotely resembles the Bell X-1 rocket plane with which Chuck Yeager first broke through the sound barrier in 1947 (I have Yeager's autobiography). But just for the sake or argument ...
But that still leaves an absolute minimum of half an hour from yell to Balrogs arriving (and 15 minutes if you concede that the Balrogs can do Mach 2 … 🤪). What were Morgoth and Ungoliant doing in all that time?, Each playing his / her own game of solitaire? (They certainly weren't on speaking terms by then).
No, no, this overgrown arachnid and her entire story remains firmly on the pole position of what I consider to be JRRT's weakest element in his entire legendarium. 😷


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## Miguel

Gothmog said:


> Ungoliant did not start producing her darkness until the Balrogs had already attacked



Of the Flight of the Noldor:


> and she rose against him, and her cloud closed about him, and she enmeshed him in a web of clinging thongs to strangle him. Then Morgoth sent forth a terrible cry, that echoed in the mountains


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