# Did turgon fight in dagor aglareb and battle of lammoth?



## Turin_Turambar (May 13, 2021)

it says in my language middle earth wiki that turgon is one of the dagor aglareb commanders.Is it true? Was there in the turgon dagor aglareb and battle of lammoth?


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## Alcuin (May 13, 2021)

I think so. The Noldor were divided into the Fëanorians, who sailed to Middle-earth in the stolen ships of the Teleri, and the followers of Fingolfin, who had to hoof it over the Grinding Ice between Araman and Middle-earth. I don’t recall that the majority of the folk of Fingolfin and Finarfin had begun to spread out across Beleriand before then(, and I haven’t bothered to double-check). (Finarfin stayed behind in Eldamar with a tithe of the Noldor. His children and most of his people followed his brother Fingolfin.)


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## Turin_Turambar (May 14, 2021)

Alcuin said:


> I think so. The Noldor were divided into the Fëanorians, who sailed to Middle-earth in the stolen ships of the Teleri, and the followers of Fingolfin, who had to hoof it over the Grinding Ice between Araman and Middle-earth. I don’t recall that the majority of the folk of Fingolfin and Finarfin had begun to spread out across Beleriand before then(, and I haven’t bothered to double-check). (Finarfin stayed behind in Eldamar with a tithe of the Noldor. His children and most of his people followed his brother Fingolfin.)


Does it say in the book that turgon fought in these battles? i wondered.


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## Elthir (May 14, 2021)

For possible future reference, the following description is all we have so far concerning the Battle of the Lammoth. And in case anyone is wondering, this battle does not appear in the 1977 Silmarillion. It hails from a late text (1968 or later, and note the spelling of_ Ork_) titled _The Shibboleth of Feanor._


*"Arakáno was the tallest of the brothers and the most impetuous, but his name was never changed to Sindarin form, for he perished in the first battle of Fingolfin's host with the Orks, the batttle of the Lammoth ( . . . ).***

* **"When the onset of the Orks caught the host at unawares as they marched southwards and the ranks of the Eldar were giving way, he sprang forward and hewed a path through the foes, daunted by his stature and the terrible light of his eyes, till he came to the Ork-captain and felled him. Then though he himself was surrounded and slain, the Orks were dismayed, and the Noldor pursued them with slaughter." *JRRT, The Peoples of Middle-Earth

Again, that's all there is, published so far anyway.


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## Turin_Turambar (May 14, 2021)

Elthir said:


> For possible future reference, the following description is all we have so far concerning the Battle of the Lammoth. And in case anyone is wondering, this battle does not appear in the 1977 Silmarillion. It hails from a late text (1968 or later, and note the spelling of_ Ork_) titled _The Shibboleth of Feanor._
> 
> 
> *"Arakáno was the tallest of the brothers and the most impetuous, but his name was never changed to Sindarin form, for he perished in the first battle of Fingolfin's host with the Orks, the batttle of the Lammoth ( . . . ).***
> ...


so what are there for dagor aglareb?


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## Elthir (May 14, 2021)

I'm only quoting the bits about the good guys, which you seem to want to know about, and looking at relatively "later" passages from QS and GA.

*Quenta Silmarillion*: *"But Fingolfin and Maidros gathered great force, and while others sought out and destroyed all the orcs that strayed in Beleriand and did great evil, they came upon the main host from the other side, even as it was assaulting Dorthonion, and they defeated the servants of Morgoth, and pursued the remnant across Bladorion, and destroyed them utterly within sight of Angband's gates."

Grey Annals*: *"But Fingolfin and Maidros were not sleeping, and gathering swiftly great force of both Noldor and Sindar, they destroyed all the scattered bands of the orcs that had stolen into the land; but the main host they repelled, and drove out onto the fields of Ardgalen, and there surrounded it and destroyed it, to the least and last, within sight of Angband."*

In the 1977 Silmarillion constructed by Christopher Tolkien, we have a *mix of both passages*.


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## Hisoka Morrow (May 15, 2021)

Alcuin said:


> ...Middle-earth in the stolen ships of the Teleri, and the followers of Fingolfin,...


Or could Fingofin assign Turgon in the other zone, after all, Lammoth seemed to be just a skirmish instead of a grand battle, or Turgon was assigned into the dispatch to reinforce Argom? 
And about the "Glorious Battle", absolutely yes, as JRRT mentioned all the personnel of Maedhros and Fingolfin were either assign to handle Morgoth's diversionary battle groups or it's main forces.


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## Turin_Turambar (Jun 17, 2021)

Elthir said:


> For possible future reference, the following description is all we have so far concerning the Battle of the Lammoth. And in case anyone is wondering, this battle does not appear in the 1977 Silmarillion. It hails from a late text (1968 or later, and note the spelling of_ Ork_) titled _The Shibboleth of Feanor._
> 
> 
> *"Arakáno was the tallest of the brothers and the most impetuous, but his name was never changed to Sindarin form, for he perished in the first battle of Fingolfin's host with the Orks, the batttle of the Lammoth ( . . . ).***
> ...


I have a question on this subject.Did turgon and host of turgon follow fingolfin in exile? The fact that there are so few details about the battle of lammoth keeps me asking questions.😌


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## Elthir (Jun 18, 2021)

Yes.

We can answer plenty of questions about the Elder Days with a simple yes or no [*cough*]. 



In Aman, Fingolfin and his son Turgon spoke against Feanor, and when the host was being marshalled dissension arose again: *"and thus at the last as two divided hosts the Noldor set forth" *So I ask me, would Turgon march with the Feanorians instead of his father?

And in any case, it is said, for example, that Fingolfin and his sons (among others) led the Exiles after Feanor had betrayed them (after burning the ships at Losgar which killed *Amarthan*, Feanor's son).

🍳


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## Elthir (Jun 18, 2021)

Elthir said:


> Yes.
> 
> We can answer plenty of questions about the Elder Days with a simple yes or no [*cough*].



*Ando: *Elthir, here you're working with the "two host" scenario, but didn't you just post this recently:
_"We know that Glorfindel left Valinor "in the host" of Turgon (in a late note it's even stated that Turgon had been elected supreme leader of the Noldorin hosts, with reference to Finarfin's "third host" . . . but then Fingolfin appears to return . . . so let's put that muddle aside for now)."_

*Elthir:* Yeah, so?

*Ando:* And isn't there a late genealogy in _Maeglin_ in which *Turgon is Finwe's son*?

*Elthir:* Yeah but . . .

*Ando:* Then couldn't this matter_ possibly_ be more complicated than you're suggesting?

*Elthir: * _Drat your bones_ Ando! Who paid you to post this? *Gando*?

*"Of course it is not to be thought that my father actually intended such a catastrophic disruption of the narrative structure as this would bring about, and it reassuring to see that in a reference elsewhere in these papers Fingolfin reappears."* Christopher Tolkien, commentary, "the War of Ando and Elthir" . . . oops, I mean commentary, _Last Writings._

*Elthir:* So like I said. Yes 

*Ando:* You never know.

*Elthir:* Go away. And before you go: is Turgon an Elf?* Yes*. Take that!


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## Olorgando (Jun 18, 2021)

Elthir said:


> *"Of course it is not to be thought that my father actually intended such a catastrophic disruption of the narrative structure as this would bring about, *


Considering much of JRRT's post-LoTR writing, I have serious doubts at his hesitancy at disruption ...


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