# Why is Galadriel so powerful in the Third age - power of a Maiar?



## 1stvermont

*T*he question is not of her power in the first age vs the created power of a maiar, but of her power vs general maiar in the third age. I have argued that the Maiar are overrated in their power and I also argue the strength of the Noldor [individually not collective] increased from the first age to the third age. I think it vital to read before voting and can be found on the post following my op.




*Galadriel *

_“Lady Galadrial....was of the Noldor and remembered the day before days in Valinor, and she was the mightiest and fairest of all the elves that remained in middle earth.”
-The Silmarillion_

“_Galadriel..is the last remaining of the great among the high elves, and “awoke” in Eldomar beyound the sea.”
-J.R.R Tolkien letters 144_

“_Galadriel, noblest of the Noldor still in middle-Earth.”
-Karen Wynn Fonstad the Atlas of Middel-Earth Revised Edition Houghton Mifflin Company Boston NY 1991_

Born in Valinor the only daughter of Finarfin high king of the Noldor in Valinor and niece of Feanor, also a high king of the noldor. In Valinar the Noldor elves “thirst for more knowledge , and in many things surpassed their teachers” [valar]. Lady Galadrial was taught by Yavanna [valar] and Aule. Later she lived with and became close friends with Melian the maia learning from her.

“_Galadriel remained long with Melian, for their was much love between them.”
-The war of the Jewels 

“Galadriel....remained long in Doriath....there learned great lore and wisdom concing Middel earth.”
-The Later Sillmarillion the war of the Jewels_


Also Melian also learned from Galadriel, such as what had happened in aman. In the third age she was the holder of the elf ring of adamant [Nenya] the last of the rings to be made [besides the one ring] and the most powerful. The rings main power was protection, preservation and concealment, however it also enhanced the natural powers of the holders [130 letters of Tolkien].

_“for the power of the elven rings was very great.” 
-of the rings of power and the third age

"Throughout the second and third ages Lorien remained safe from Sauron, For Galadriel's power was such that she knew his mind but hers was closed to him, and she could protect Lorien from assault by any power less than Sauron himself"
- Robert Foster the complete guide to middle earth_

Protected within Lothlorien in part by the power of her ring, she could also use her mirror “the mirror of Galadrial” to see “things that were, and things that are, and things that yet may be” to further her knowledge of middle earth and counter moves by sauron. She was also a member of the council of the wise having another source of great knowledge of middle earth.

In the letters of Tolkien he says of the "free people" of middle earth Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel are the most powerful and in 246 he suggested Galadriel would have been able to face Sauron alone if she had his ring. In “flotsam and jetsam” Aragorn named Galadrial as one of the three that could stand up to the maiar Sauruman.

She helped force Sauron out of dol Guldor, sent Gwaihir to rescue Gandalf, of the flight of noldor galadriel helped lead the house of fingolfin to middle earth over the dangerous mountain pass, tore down the walls of Dol Guldur, and helped defend lorien from assaults.

_"Lórien itself was assaulted three times, but the armies ofDol Guldur were driven back due to the courage of the Elves and the power of Galadriel's Ring. It is said that the power of her Ring could not be overcome unless Sauron himself would come to do battle. After the fall of Sauron she, with __Thranduil__ of __Mirkwood__and their elven allies, crossed the __Anduin__ into __Dol Guldur__, where they tore down its walls and laid bare its pits. She is, however, no mere fey being, but a lady of great power. She bears one of the Great Rings - Nenya - the Ring of Adamant, and with the One Ring in her grasp as well, she would be a mighty match for the Dark Lord Sauron. Galadriel possessed a tremendous amount of magical powers, and was said to be the greatest of the __Ñoldor__ after Fëanor..
-Galadrieal one wiki to rule them all _


Glorfindel the mighty first age eldor warrior, became “almost equal” to the maiar, yet was not as powerful as Galadriel the most powerful third age Noldor.


_"or long years he remained in Valinor, in reunion with the Eldar who had not rebelled, and in the companionship of the Maiar. To these he had now become almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate (to whom a bodily form not made or chosen by himself was necessary) his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by his self-sacrifice.
-History of Middel Earth The Last Writings, Glorfindel _

Galadriel also posses intercessory powers she also seems to have divine powers, reading the hearts/minds of the fellowship..

_ “I dont like leaving it and that's a fact as he [Sam] stroked the ropes end and shook it gently “it goes hard parting with anything I brought out of elf-country. Made by Galadriel herself too, maybe, Galadriel” he murmured, nodding his head mournfully, he looked up and gave one last pull to the ropes as if in farewell. To the complete surprise of both the hobbits it came lose.” I think the rope came off itself- when I called” _

“_To call upon galadriel even unawares, is for her to answer.”
-Ralph C Wood The Gospel According to Tolkien Westminster John Knox Press Louisville Kentucky 2003_

Later prior to the battle of the Pelennor fields when the dundain were sent as reinforcement “yes you have it” said Gimli “the lady of the wood she reads many hearts and desires.” Much of Galadrial comes from the teachings of Mary the mother of Jesus and like Mary is to Catholics, Tolkien said in letters 353 Galadriel was 'unstained': she had committed no evil deeds.

“_Galadriel was 'unstained': she had committed no evil deeds. She was an enemy of Fëanor. She did not reach Middle-earth with the other Noldor, but independently. Her reasons for desiring to go to Middle-earth were legitimate, and she would have been permitted to depart, but for the misfortune that before she set out the revolt of Fëanor broke out, and she became involved in the desperate measures of Manwe, and the ban on all emigration.”
-J.R.R Tolkien letters 353_



*Hyperbole Within the Sillmarillion*


“_What we have in the sillmarillion are traditions....handed on by men in numonor and later in middle-earth.... blended and confused with their own mannish myths and cosmic ideas.”
-J.R.R Tolkien Myths Transformed _

“_Pure myth and legend....cosmological myth ”
-Letters of J.R.R Tolkien 122 _

“_Moreover my father came to conceive the silmarillion as a compilation , a compedious narrative, made long afterwords from sources of great diversity [poems annuals and oral tales] that have survived in tradition”
*-*Christopher Tolkien Forward to the Silmarillion_

I think sections of the silmarillion were meant by Tolkien as traditions based on truth that also incorporate hyperbole language given their legend/myth status. Tolkien viewed elven written history [the sillmarillion] as legendary writings also influenced by the numonreans myths. As an example Tolkien talked in myths transformed of the “absurd business of the making of the sun and moon” rather than the third age historical accounts. However Tolkien said in letters 130 “I believe that legends and myths are largely made of truth.”

“_It is to be remembered that the 'mythology' is represented as being two stages removed from a true record. It is based first upon elvish records and lore about the valar and their own dealings with them, and these have reached us [fragmentary] only through relics of numenorean traditions....supplemented by anthropocentric histories and tales.”
-J.R.R Tolkien Myths Transformed _

Tolkien's writings use hyperbole language especially in his yet unpublished silmarillion. This is not false, just a style of writing. Over long periods of history tales grow and over time exaggerated characters and beasts become more powerful than they were. The strength of the legendary creatures and heroes was exaggerated in the mythical/legendary writings of the first two ages. This is common in military writings of the past such as the Bible and today in sports. When people talk of the "greatest ever" basketball player, or pitcher, or boxer etc over time they become legendary and we forget their weakness and exaggerate their up sides. We also tend to use language and exaggerate their accomplishments and often talk of them as the best ever, often various times you will hear someone was the “greatest” or “tallest” etc. .Yet even within the text of the sillmarillion they are often not as mighty as presumed.

“_Tolkien uses profoundly figurative language – particularly when describing distant events in semi-legendary past.”
-John Garth_


“_The sillmarillion provides the mythical background for the LOTR and is crucial to its full comprehension.”
-Matthew Dickerson and Jonathan Evans Ents Elves and Eriador the Environmental Vision of L.R.R Tolkien University of Kentucky Press 2011 _


*How Powerful Were the Maiar, the Valar, and the First age Creatures? *

Examples abound in the silmarillion of the results of hyperbole and the effects of tradition and legends coming long after the events. Where mighty warriors and creatures are exaggerated [this also occurs in LOTR to a lesser extent]. I think this language is used often of great creatures of the first ages however there is also information that gives them a more historical/realistic portrayal as Tolkien desired.

“_A secondary world which your mind can enter. Inside it, what he relates is “true” it accords with the laws of that world. You therefore believe it, while you are, as it were, inside. The moment disbelief arises, the spell is broken, the magic, or rather art, has failed. You are then out in the primary world from outside.”
-J.R.R Tolkien quoted in J.R.R Tolkien a Biography by Humphrey carpenter p 194-195 _

“_I wanted people simply to get inside this story and take it as actual history.”
-J R R Tolkien quoted in J.R.R Tolkien The Authorized Biography Humphrey carpenter Houghton Mifflin company NY 2000_


*Balrogs*

“_Melkor had corrupted many spirits some great, as sauron, or less so as balrogs”
-Myths transformed _

Balrogs [maiar] were not even said to be melkors strongest weapons in the war of wrath. Dragons [creation of Melkor] were his most powerful servants and they were the most effective in the great battle. Fingor king of Noldor fought 1v1 vs Gothmog the captain of Balrogs and most powerful balrog ever, and Gothmog was unable to kill Fingor 1v1. It was only when other balrogs who encircled the elf king, distracted him, and this enabled Gothmog to kill Fingor. Previously Morgoth and his balrogs fled from Fingolfin and his kin.

Later Gothmog was killed by elven lord Ecthelion. Ecthelion jumped and wrapped his legs around the demon, driving the spike of his helmet into Gothmog's body. This caused Gothmog to lose his balance, and he, along with Ecthelion, fell into the Fountain of the King. Gothmog's fire was thus quenched, showing a weakness, water. Glorfindel killed a balrog with his sword to the stomach. In “of the return of the Noldor” Feanor for a long time fought alone against multiple Balrogs before being killed. After, Feanor's sons fought off the balrogs.

*Melkor and Sauron *

“_His [Melkor] might was greatest of all things in this world.”
-The Sillmarillion of the ruin of Beleriand_

“_Sauron chief of the maiar who turned to Melkor”
-MR later sillmarillion 

"Sauron, greatest and most terrible of the servants of Morgoth, who in the Sindarin tongue was named Gorthaur".
-The Silmarillion, Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin._

Melkor [morgoth] was the “greatest” “most powerful” and knowledgeable of all the valar the strongest beings outside of Eru [God]. Yet even with him we see weaknesses. He rarely left his strongholds out of fear of valar or the combined strength of the elves. He was besieged by the Noldor for 400 years. Ungoliant the giant spider was able to match Morgoth in battle and he had to be saved by his servants the balrogs [his power was not yet reduced by giving it to other creatures yet, see Annuls of ammon Morgoths ring] .

“_Ungoliante....drank and swelled to a shape so vast and hideous that even Melkor was adread...morgoth could not master her and she emeshed strangling webs, and his dreadful cry echoed throughout the world.”
- Morgoths Ring aam _

And yet of Ungoliant, soon after we read in the war of the jewels

“_Soon after [morgoths cry] indeed, Ungoliante fled from the north and came to the realm of king Thingol....but by the power of melian [maiar] she was stayed, and entered not into Neldoreth.”_

He later lost the silmarill to Beren and Luthian and was put under a spell by luthien. He was eventually overpowered by Sauron a maia.

“_Sauron was greater, effectively, in the Second Age, than Morgoth at the end of the First.”
-Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed_


Morgoth fought at least once when the high elf king Fingolfin challenged him to a 1v1 fight. Morgoth  feared Fingolfin and did not want the fight but had to accept given the horn blasts of Fingolfin being so loud that all his servants would know of his fear. In the 1v1 dual the elvin king wounded melkor eight times including one on his foot that bled and caused morgoth to forever limp. Morgoth gave a cry of anguish and his nearby chieftains “fell on there faces in dismay.” It was not until “the king grew weary” [having traveled a long distance to challenge melkor] that Morgoth was than able to kill him. Following the fight Thorondor king of the eagles, marred Morgoths face and stole the body of the king from him. Morgoth limped on one foot and never fully recovered from his wounds.

_[Morgoth was]“Severely wounded by fingolfin and Thoronder in 455 and lost a silmarill to Beren and Luthian in 467”
-Robert Foster Tolkien's World from A to Z: The Complete Guide to Middle-Earth_

Further it is prophesied in the second prophecy of mandos, Morgoth is to be killed by a man, Turin.

Sauron, a Maiar, was Melkors mightiest and strongest servant. Yet Sauron was defeated by the large hound Huan [said to be the size of a large horse] a creation of the valar and Luthien rescued Beren from sauron's dungons. Later Sauron feared the Númenóreans [men] and would not give battle but retreated from them many times. Sauron later submitted to Ar-Pharazon rather than fight and was led away captive. In the second age with extra power from the one ring, Sauron “wrestled with Gil-Galad and Elendil [elf and human], and they were both slain.” and Sauron lost his physical form. Despite that he was at Mt Doom

“_Where his ring was at its fullest power.”
-Karen Wynn Fonstad the Atlas of Middel-Earth Revised Edition Houghton Mifflin Company Boston NY 1991_

In the third age Sauron was overthrown by a hobbit that was able to sneak deep within Mordor and destroy the ring after he was fooled to attack at the black gate.

*The Valar and Maiar *

_The valar appeared as “Shapes of human form, though taller [not gigantic] and more magnificent.”
-Christoph Tolkien Morgoths Ring the annals of aman_

“_And the Valar drew unto them many companions, some less, some well nigh as great as themselves, and they laboured together in the ordering of the Earth and the curbing of its tumults.”
*-*The Sillmarillion _

“_Melian was a maia, of the race of the valar”
-Of Thingol and melian_


Valar were the strongest creations by Eru but not so vastly powerful to be beyond compare to other groups and kinds of beings. Maiar and valar are of the same race as elves are with men and even elves like Thingol, married maiar like melian. The chief among the maiar in valinor was a Maiar Eonwe, the banner bearer and herald of Manwe, “whose might in arms is surpassed by none in arda.”

In Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth Tolkien says of the valar “They had sufficient power for their functions.” Their main function was to creation and to fight morgoth. Much of their power has to do with the potential for creation such as the power of the air, water, keeper of the dead, weaver of time, master of visions and dreams etc. Of the 14 valar it seems only 2 Orome, and Tulkas had power of strength. Morgoth fled often from Tulkas even though he was the most powerful of the valar. As a poster wrote

_“T_olkien did not really think in terms of video game–style levels of power. Power to him was an intangible thing that can take many forms, and is not the same as raw strength or destructive ability. Tulkas, one of the Valar, is the strongest and the best at fighting; but he's certainly not the most powerful among them, and he readily accepts Manwë's leadership...Likewise, Morgoth at his height was the most powerful nondivine entity in Arda; but even he was defeated in a fight by Ungoliant, who could only do one thing (engulf and consume things in darkness), but could do it really, really well.To Tolkien, the power to resist, the power to stay true to your goals, the power to inspire other people to follow you, were all equally or more important than the power to win battles or use “magic” to change the world..”

And in letters 181 Tolkien said they “shared in its [earths] making, but only in the same terms as we make a work of art or story.” Further like Melkor, they poured much of their power into the creation of arda, reducing their power.

*https://books.google.com/books?id=4OfWWfRDAXcC&pg=PT26&lpg=PT26&dq=valar beyond compare in power highest to lowest&source=bl&ots=AgRxCugAm7&sig=BQ4gBf6-Y83d0IvBaMiexmXDBCE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiB05nig43ZAhWmxFkKHc_cCDUQ6AEILDAA#v=onepage&q=valar beyond compare in power highest to lowest&f=false*

They rarely engaged in battle with any other than Morgoth besides the war of wrath in the first age. In this battle dragons drove back the valar and it was not a victory for the Noldor elves, the men of the edain and the valar until the eagles and Earendil [man/elf] came and saved the day. Dwarves were able to break through Melian's defense while destroying Doriath. In Valinar the Noldor elves “thirst for more knowledge , and in many things surpassed their teachers” [valar].

“_Now the Noldor took delight in all lore and crafts and Aule and his folk came often among them. Yet such skill had Iluvatar granted to them that in many matters.....they soon surpassed their teachers....and all the valar were enriched by their labors.”
-Mr Annuls of ammon section 4 _

“_Eleven smiths of Ost-in-eduil in Erigion learned skills of forge and fire only matched by the Vala Aule the smith.”
-David Day The Battles of Tolkien Thunder Bay Press San Diego CA 2017 _

And yet still often the dwarves bettered the elves in this area.

“_In the tempering of steal alone of all the crafts the dwarves were never outmatched even by the noldor, and in making of mail of linked rings their work had no rival.”
-The Grey Annuls The war of the Jewels_

“_They it was that first devised mail of linked rings.... and in making of byrnieg and of hauderks none among elves or men have proved their equal.”
-Later sillmarillion The war of the jewels _

Osse and Uinen taught the elves all manner of sea lore and shipbuilding yet we read in gray annals their ships were “not so swift and strong that they might dare the deeps of the great sea” Instead it was the numenoreans who built the greatest fleet ever seen on middle earth. Melkor was envious of Feanor because of his great crafting abilities. In Tolkiens letters 130 he said of the attack on valinar by men with the largest navy ever assembled on middle earth, “The Numen-oreans directed by Sauron could have wrought ruin in Valinor itself.”

In the third age Saruman's army was defeated at helms deep, and his fortress and garrison was taken and destroyed by ents while he hid in fear in his tower. And ultimately, he was slain by Grima Wormtongue. Elrond was part maiar yet galadrial was the most powerful elf of the third age.

“_Lady Galadrial....was of the Noldor and remembered the day before days in Valinor, and she was the mightiest and fairest of all the elves that remained in middle earth.”
-Silmarillion _

Further Glorfindel who became “almost equal” to the maiar yet was not as powerful as Galadriel

_"or long years he remained in Valinor, in reunion with the Eldar who had not rebelled, and in the companionship of the Maiar. To these he had now become almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate (to whom a bodily form not made or chosen by himself was necessary) his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by his self-sacrifice.
-History of Middel Earth The Last Writings, Glorfindel _

Even Gandalf was unsure of his ability vs the witch king while Glorfindel faced him. He did not see Sauroman for who he had becomes, he failed 1v1 vs Sauroman and he could not escape the battel of the 5 armies as his arm is in a sling from being injured. Gandalf debates with Aragorn on what path to take the fellowship and he gives way to Aragorn saying “if you bring a ranger with you, it is well to pay attention to him, especially if the ranger is Aragorn.” despite the fact we are told in the Valaquenta “Wisest of the maiar was Olorin.” In the hobbit the party went to Rivnedall and it was Elrond [not Gandalf] whos wisdom dicerned the map, found new letters, and knew the history of the swords Glamdring and Orcrist carried by Gandalf. Neither and Gandalfs plans always correct. He advised them to take the elf road near mirkwood but it was now impassable.

“_Even the good plans of the wise like Gandalfs and of good friends like Elrond go astray sometimes.”
-The Hobbit chapter 4 _


*First age vs Third age Elves *

“_Rational incarnate creatures of more or less comparable stature with our own.”
-J.R.R Tolkien letters 130 _

“_Elves of the sillmarillion...are men before the fall which deprived him of his power of achievement.”
-Humprey Carpenter J.R.R Tolkien a biography _

Since morgoth, balrogs and sauron feared the elves at various times in the first age, and since various elves killed balrogs and challenged morgoth, must the first age elves be more powerful than the third age elves? I dont think so. When the silmarillion speaks of elves being more powerful in the first age, it is referring to their collective strength. The elves had a larger population in the first and and their numbers dwindled over time having few children and loss in wars. In letters 153 Tolkien said “Elves and men are evidently in biological terms one race.” in 181 he says “Elves and men are just different aspects of the humane...elves and men are in their incarnate forms kindrid.” In fact they are so close in the first age they produce offspring and in Morgoth's ring laws and customs of the eldar it reads “A man who watched elf children at play might well have believed they were the children of men.” In letters 131 we read of the numenorens “they became thus in appearance, and even in powers of mind hardly distinguishable from the elves.”

“_Elves....of a race of beings closely akin to men, so closely indeed that they must be regarded as physically [or biologically] simply branches of the same race.”
-Andreth Athrabeth Finrod AH Andreth _

“_In those days elves and men were of like stature and strength of body”
-Of men the sillmarilliom _

In “of the ruin of Doriath” the dwarves of Nogrod defeated the mighty kingdom of elves of doriath, captured their city and Nauglamir. The “Naugrim passed unhindered into the woods of Doriath and none withstood them for they were many and fierce and the captains of the Grey elves were cast into doubt and despair.” In _of the fifth battle _ men of dor-lomin and the dwarves of Belegrost won renown as the last to stand firm at the battle rather than the noldor who fled. In the first age elves usually were not well armed and as a result, at time lost to orcs.

“_The elves of Ossiriand were light-armed, and no match for the orcs who were shod with iron and iron shielded and bore great spears with broad blades.”
-The Grey Annuls The war of the Jewels_

“_The people of Hador [men] were yet greater [than the eldar] strength and stature, mighty men, the children of Eru.”
-The Grey Annuls The war of the Jewels_

Many times men rose high in elf kingdoms in the first ages and in warfare and were better fighters than elves. .

“_There were some among men that learned the wisdom of the Eldar, and became great and valiant among captains of the Noldor.”
-Of men the sillmarillion _

In the second age Sauron has his way with the Eldar, sacking Eregion of the Noldor, holding at bay Elrond, and advancing toward the Grey Havens. It was only a force of Númenor, sent by Tar-Minastir, that turned the tide. The eldar fled the numonrians who charged for battle in aman, tuna, and the coast of valinor. The elves of the first age often had dwarves craft great jewels, weapons, and build cities for the elves due to their great abilities.

“_In the tempering of steal alone of all the crafts the dwarves were never outmatched even by the noldor, and in making of mail of linked rings their work had no rival.”
-The Grey Annuls The war of the Jewels_

“_They it was that first devised mail of linked rings.... and in making of byrnieg and of hauderks none among elves or men have proved their equal.”
-Later sillmarillion The war of the jewels _

I think it can be argued the elves grew in strength over time.

“_Indeed in their earlier days death came more readily ; for their bodies were the less different from the bodies of men, and the command of their spirits over their bodies less complete.”
-MR laws and customs of the eldar_

“_Elves went and lived for ages, and grew fairer and wiser and more learned and invented their magic and their cunning craft.”
-The Hobbit Flies and Spiders_

One clear example is Glorfindel, a Lord and mighty eldor warrior of the first age who became even more powerful in his return to ME and yet still was not as powerful as Galadriel .

_"or long years he remained in Valinor, in reunion with the Eldar who had not rebelled, and in the companionship of the Maiar. To these he had now become almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate (to whom a bodily form not made or chosen by himself was necessary) his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by his self-sacrifice.
-History of Middel Earth The Last Writings, Glorfindel_


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## Edmond the just

I agree


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## Angelimir

Galadriel was the most powerful Elf in the third age, only Elrond could rival her. But if she were as powerful as a Maia, the Valar would not have had to send the Wizards, namely Gandalf to contest Sauron’s will. Galadriel herself wanted to make Gandalf the head of the White Counsel. And Gandalf was a Maia of the same order as Sauron. No Galadriel was not as powerful as a Middle Earth angel, although had she taken the great ring she certainly could have been.


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## ZehnWaters

Angelimir said:


> Galadriel was the most powerful Elf in the third age, only Elrond could rival her. But if she were as powerful as a Maia, the Valar would not have had to send the Wizards, namely Gandalf to contest Sauron’s will. Galadriel herself wanted to make Gandalf the head of the White Counsel. And Gandalf was a Maia of the same order as Sauron. No Galadriel was not as powerful as a Middle Earth angel, although had she taken the great ring she certainly could have been.


I dunno, I think Elves could range as powerful as Maia it was just rare (also Sauron was incredibly powerful, even without his Ring). Elves were very similar to the Ainur (in "magical" abilities, at least). Men seemed to only become as physically powerful as the Elves or Ainur. Their physical creations were powerful but seemed largely mundane.


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## 1stvermont

Angelimir said:


> Galadriel was the most powerful Elf in the third age, only Elrond could rival her. But if she were as powerful as a Maia, the Valar would not have had to send the Wizards, namely Gandalf to contest Sauron’s will. Galadriel herself wanted to make Gandalf the head of the White Counsel. And Gandalf was a Maia of the same order as Sauron. No Galadriel was not as powerful as a Middle Earth angel, although had she taken the great ring she certainly could have been.



if that is so they would not have needed to send Gandalf the white because Gandalf the grey was good enough.


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## ZehnWaters

1stvermont said:


> if that is so they would not have needed to send Gandalf the white because Gandalf the grey was good enough.


Galadriel herself stated that unless Sauron, WITH HIS RING, came against her, none could enter her realm. Luthien overpowered Sauron and Morgoth, Gil-Galad and Elendil overpowered Sauron in combat. It's not unreasonable to assume Galadriel, with a Nenya, was more powerful than Sauron.


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## Hisoka Morrow

ZehnWaters said:


> Gil-Galad and Elendil overpowered Sauron in combat


In war instead of combat, my dear XD. They're both KIA during their combat against Sauron, it's Isuildur kicked Sauron's ass. XD



ZehnWaters said:


> Luthien overpowered Sauron and Morgoth


Luthien just crippled them both, making them lose combat ability just for a while. I wonder Luthien what would happen if she's out of ammo(energy to sing) XD

Take this into account


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## ZehnWaters

Hisoka Morrow said:


> In war instead of combat, my dear XD. They're both KIA during their combat against Sauron, it's Isuildur kicked Sauron's ass. XD


Not in the book. Sauron was overthrown and Isildur just cut off his ring.


Hisoka Morrow said:


> Luthien just crippled them both, making them lose combat ability just for a while. I wonder Luthien what would happen if she's out of ammo(energy to sing) XD


That's still overpowering. Morgoth was literally at her mercy. Though, at that point, Morgoth wasn't even half of what he used to be.


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## Hisoka Morrow

ZehnWaters said:


> Not in the book. Sauron was overthrown and Isildur just cut off his ring.


Hmmm...yeah, after all, we don't have the details of the full combat. So we can't even make sure that Isildur did it by KIll Steal during a smash while Sauron just exhausted from the duel against Gil-Galad and Elendil or a frontal duel.



ZehnWaters said:


> That's still overpowering. Morgoth was literally at her mercy. Though, at that point, Morgoth wasn't even half of what he used to be.


Hmmm, for it's a sneak attack, I wonder if Luthien and Beren were having any stuff in hands to give Morgoth a mortal blow at that period, maybe stealing Morgoth's weapons, or suilcide explosion(LOTR obviously got gunpowder, though we can't make sure how deadly it is.). If not, then...maybe half overpowering, at least, though Luthien and Beren obviously overpowered Morgoth on the aspect of tactical mastery, for they never got any successful sneak attack even launched from the finest combat units from Morgoth, and Morgoth's size was too large to sneak attack...seriously.


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## Alcuin

Sauron was defeated by Gil-galad and Elendil _along with_ Elrond, Círdan, and Isildur. Elendil apparently got whacked on the head and fell on his sword, Narsil, breaking it. Gil-galad seems to have skewered Sauron with his spear, Aeglos, but the heat of Sauron’s body burned him to death. I say _apparently_, because we really don’t have any details of the battle. I suspect the three other participants – Círdan, Elrond, and Isildur – also got hits on Sauron during the battle. I assume that because the battle took place on the slopes of Orodruin, Sauron was attempting to use the volcano against his enemies, perhaps by destroying their siege, their camp, or even their entire army; but things were bad enough for him that he was drawn out of Barad-dûr and forced into personal combat. 

At this point, however, we can be certain of the outcome of the battle. Sauron seems to have collapsed physically from his wounds in battle. While he was down, Isildur cut the Ring from his hand by slicing off the finger on which he wore it. “Then Sauron was vanquished and his spirit fled,” as Gandalf told Frodo in the beginning of the story. (“The Shadow of the Past”) I suppose Sauron’s physical body disintegrated as his spirit left it. This was Sauron’s second disembodiment: his first body was destroyed in the Downfall of Númenor. But it took not two, but _five_ of the finest combatants to overcome him. 

And since we’re mentioning Elves and Men overcoming Maiar and other creatures of similar rank and power, Ecthelion of the Fountain killed Gothmog, the most powerful of the Balrogs, Glorfindel in his first incarnation defeated a Balrog, and other Balrogs seem to have been destroyed during their attack on Gondolin; Boldog (an Umaia, or fallen Maia, in Orc-form) was destroyed by Thingol of Doriath; Eärendil is credited with destroying both Ungoliant and Ancalagon the Black. 

But Lúthien did not defeat Sauron. Huan the Hound of Valinor accomplished that. Huan also slew Carcharoth the Wolf of Angband, though he also died as a result along with Beren One-handed. When Huan seized Sauron the Werewolf by the throat, Sauron shifted shape many times but was unable to escape the Hound’s grip: Lúthien gave him the choice of surrendering the keys of Minas Tirith on Tol Sirion (the original, First Age Minas Tirith built by Finrod to secure the Sirion) and the words that held its stones together, which she undid to release Sauron’s captives and free her lover Beren. _Huan defeated Sauron,_ who fled and vanished from Beleriand until he presented himself to the victorious Eönwë to sue for clemency after the War of Wrath. 

Nor did Lúthien defeat Morgoth. In his pride and arrogance, Morgoth let her run free for a moment before his throne and fiendish court, and she lulled them all, including Morgoth, into sleep. She woke Beren, who also fell asleep, who cut the prongs that held one Silmaril from Morgoth’s crown, which had rolled away from his head, taking the Silmaril as the bride-price for Lúthien. But when he tried to take another, the Dwarvish knife Angrist, which Beren had taken from Curufin, snapped and struck Morgoth on the cheek. When the Vala moaned and the sleeping court stirred, Beren and Lúthien fled in terror, but when they met an awakened and aroused Carcharoth at the gates of Angband, Lúthien was too weak to enchant the demonic wolf a second time: Beren strode forth with the Silmaril blazing in his hand, and when Carcharoth bit off both hand and jewel, the Silmaril drove the wolf mad with pain. 

Lúthien did not _defeat_ Morgoth. She caused him to fall asleep. Among the Children of Ilúvatar, Elves or Men, Fingolfin alone struck Morgoth and wounded him so that the Vala went halt (lame) ever after. Of the Valar, only Tulkas was able to overcome him: Tulkas was the only Vala who came to Middle-earth for the War of Wrath. 

Melian, Lúthien’s mother, wove a barrier around Doriath that none could overcome without Morgoth’s physical presence, which never occurred (though Beren passed it: Fate drove his passage). Likewise Galadriel, who learned much from Melian during her short (in Elven terms) sojourn in Doriath, likewise wove a barrier about Lórien that could not be overcome unless Sauron himself came, which never occurred. (Personally, I think the Balrog could have entered Lórien, and I think that was Sauron’s intent, as using Smaug against Rivendell was likewise his intent, but that it only my opinion.) 

Galadriel is indeed very powerful. Imagine the power, the glory of the Noldor in the First Age: as Elrond remarked, “It recalled to me the glory of the Elder Days and the hosts of Beleriand, so many great princes and captains were assembled.” The Elves at the end of the Third Age were but a dim image of their presence at the end of the Second Age, and at the end of the Second Age but a memory of their glory at the end of the First Age. But Galadriel is not as powerful as one of the great Maiar, nor is Glorfindel, purified and returned from the dead and the Halls of Waiting in Mandos as he was.


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## earthfriend

ZehnWaters said:


> Galadriel herself stated that unless Sauron, WITH HIS RING, came against her, none could enter her realm. Luthien overpowered Sauron and Morgoth, Gil-Galad and Elendil overpowered Sauron in combat. It's not unreasonable to assume Galadriel, with a Nenya, was more powerful than Sauron.


Was that because Sauron had dissipated some of his power into the making of the Rings? Sauron undiluted vs Galadriel, also without a ring? hat would be a match-up. Interesting to note that when the Council of Elrond discussed the possibility of Sauron recovering the Ring, it was said of Bombadil that he would be the last, and would only succumb to Sauron. ''Could Bombadil at the end survive the coming of Sauron with the Ring? I think not''. It was not discussed that Galadriel could have withstood Sauron, at least, not at that Council


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## Aldarion

earthfriend said:


> Was that because Sauron had dissipated some of his power into the making of the Rings? Sauron undiluted vs Galadriel, also without a ring? hat would be a match-up. Interesting to note that when the Council of Elrond discussed the possibility of Sauron recovering the Ring, it was said of Bombadil that he would be the last, and would only succumb to Sauron. ''Could Bombadil at the end survive the coming of Sauron with the Ring? I think not''. It was not discussed that Galadriel could have withstood Sauron, at least, not at that Council


For Bombadil, he is apparently a spirit of the earth. So he is kinda outside the "normal"; but I can imagine his power waning as Sauron pollutes Arda. But that is a whole other discussion.


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## ZehnWaters

earthfriend said:


> Was that because Sauron had dissipated some of his power into the making of the Rings? Sauron undiluted vs Galadriel, also without a ring? hat would be a match-up. Interesting to note that when the Council of Elrond discussed the possibility of Sauron recovering the Ring, it was said of Bombadil that he would be the last, and would only succumb to Sauron. ''Could Bombadil at the end survive the coming of Sauron with the Ring? I think not''. It was not discussed that Galadriel could have withstood Sauron, at least, not at that Council


I think it'd be a toss-up. Galadriel was said to be just as powerful as Fëanor, who was said to be the most powerful Elda. The Elves ranged up to as powerful as the Maiar, judging from what we see in the Silmarillion.


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## Olorgando

ZehnWaters said:


> I think it'd be a toss-up. Galadriel was said to be just as powerful as Fëanor, who was said to be the most powerful Elda. The Elves ranged up to as powerful as the Maiar, judging from what we see in the Silmarillion.


I think we have to be a bit more circumspect with our terminology. Fëanor and Galadriel were said to be the two greatest of the Eldar (to come back to Middle-earth? What about Ingwë, King of the Vanyar and absolute High King of all Eldar in Arda?). This may not translate into some popular concepts of power, specifically martial prowess. Though I remember (at least I believe I do), that Galadriel in her "youth" (oh, maybe a good part of the 30,000 - converted - years of the Two Trees in that part of the First Age) was capable of feats of physical prowess - sports is probably our nearest equivalent - that would leave any human champion pale and shaky-kneed after witnessing them.

JRRT did make a point about the Elves in his legendarium that giving birth cost Elven women much more in substance than it ever would human mothers. He took it to an extreme with Fëanor's mother Míriel, who opted for the Halls of Mandos after his birth (though I have no idea how long after this could have been, JRRT never made an explicit statement on this mater, IIRC). So Galadriel would have been diminished in that sense by giving birth to Celebrían, wife of Elrond and mother of Elladan and Elrohir, and most importantly Arwen Undómiel.

With Elves vs. Maiar, I remain a bit skeptical. We "know" about Ecthelion vs. Gothmog at Gondolin, and Glorfindel against his Balrog shortly after Gondolin's fall.
Both paid for their victories with the destruction of their Hröar. Now I would guess that even thrice-diminished Sauron would be more powerful that even Gothmog, greatest of the Balrogs. But Galadriel is one of the two greatest (see above) of the Eldar. Perhaps what she told Frodo in "The Mirror of Galadriel" is true:

"And now at last it comes. You will give me the Ring freely! In place of the Dark Lord You would set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair!"

JRRT never committed himself to an opinion on whether this was Galadriel's wishful thinking, or if she spoke true. With hesitation, I tend towards the latter.

One thing seems clear: no human, not even Aragorn, could have escaped becoming a wraith. The Nine Nazgûl wore trinkets compared to the One Ring.

Whom Sauron *really* had to fear were Saruman and Gandalf. Saruman as a Dark Lord would have been indistinguishable from Sauron. And even Gandalf was sure that he would hardly be better than Sauron, becoming only a slightly different Dark Lord, but Dark Lord nonetheless.


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## ZehnWaters

Olorgando said:


> I think we have to be a bit more circumspect with our terminology. Fëanor and Galadriel were said to be the two greatest of the Eldar (to come back to Middle-earth? What about Ingwë, King of the Vanyar and absolute High King of all Eldar in Arda?). This may not translate into some popular concepts of power, specifically martial prowess. Though I remember (at least I believe I do), that Galadriel in her "youth" (oh, maybe a good part of the 30,000 - converted - years of the Two Trees in that part of the First Age) was capable of feats of physical prowess - sports is probably our nearest equivalent - that would leave any human champion pale and shaky-kneed after witnessing them.
> 
> JRRT did make a point about the Elves in his legendarium that giving birth cost Elven women much more in substance than it ever would human mothers. He took it to an extreme with Fëanor's mother Míriel, who opted for the Halls of Mandos after his birth (though I have no idea how long after this could have been, JRRT never made an explicit statement on this mater, IIRC). So Galadriel would have been diminished in that sense by giving birth to Celebrían, wife of Elrond and mother of Elladan and Elrohir, and most importantly Arwen Undómiel.
> 
> With Elves vs. Maiar, I remain a bit skeptical. We "know" about Ecthelion vs. Gothmog at Gondolin, and Glorfindel against his Balrog shortly after Gondolin's fall.
> Both paid for their victories with the destruction of their Hröar. Now I would guess that even thrice-diminished Sauron would be more powerful that even Gothmog, greatest of the Balrogs. But Galadriel is one of the two greatest (see above) of the Eldar. Perhaps what she told Frodo in "The Mirror of Galadriel" is true:
> 
> "And now at last it comes. You will give me the Ring freely! In place of the Dark Lord You would set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair!"
> 
> JRRT never committed himself to an opinion on whether this was Galadriel's wishful thinking, or if she spoke true. With hesitation, I tend towards the latter.
> 
> One thing seems clear: no human, not even Aragorn, could have escaped becoming a wraith. The Nine Nazgûl wore trinkets compared to the One Ring.
> 
> Whom Sauron *really* had to fear were Saruman and Gandalf. Saruman as a Dark Lord would have been indistinguishable from Sauron. And even Gandalf was sure that he would hardly be better than Sauron, becoming only a slightly different Dark Lord, but Dark Lord nonetheless.


I disagree. Galadriel was powerful enough in both “magic” and will to override Sauron’s control whereas Saruman proved he couldn’t even using just the palantír. Gandalf said it would destroy him. Only Galadriel implied she’d be able to use it to rule the world.

PS: normally I wouldn’t do this but I’m getting no replies and it’s the real reason I came here. Please check out my other thread and REPLY:
Thread 'Story Help?'
https://www.thetolkienforum.com/threads/story-help.29288/


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## Alcuin

Sauron was greatly weakened from his two earlier manifestations, his first as servant of Melkor Morgoth (Huan defeated him, but did not unhouse him), his second after reforming a body when his first was destroyed in the Downfall of Númenor at the end of the Second Age. But when he formed that second manifestation, he still had his Ruling Ring: in the Third Age, he did not have it, and it took long to accomplish his third avatar. So weak was he that when Gandalf first entered Dol Guldur in 2063, he fled from Gandalf for 400 years. It was yet another 400 years before Gandalf re-entered Dol Guldur, and that time Sauron did not flee. 

I am unaware that Sauron could not force entry into Lórien unless he reacquired his Ruling Ring, though I believe it is correct that only his physical presence could break Galadriel’s girdle about Lothlórien. (And personally, I believe the Balrog could also have forced an entrance; but that is another matter.) 

Galadriel was a very great personage. Among her peers were Elrond Half-elven, Círdan, Glorfindel, and of course Celeborn, her spouse. (If Galdor of the Havens is the same as Galdor of Gondolin, I might account him also one of that rarified number.) The Istari were creatures of an altogether different order, one far older than the oldest Elves, the greater Maiar far more powerful than the greatest of the Eldar. We should not assume that any of the Istari sent to Middle-earth were “wimps”: while their power was veiled and their appearances diminished to avoid frightening or over-awing Men or Elves, they remained potent creatures nonetheless. The battle between Gandalf and the Balrog lasted 11 days, including two days’ battle on the peak of Zirakzigil, after which Gandalf’s body lay on that mountaintop for twenty days. 

“Galadriel’s rejection of the temptation [to receive the Ring] was founded upon previous thought and resolve.” (_Letter_ 246). So also were Elrond’s, Aragorn’s, and Gandalf’s. That Faramir rejects it immediately upon learning what it is reflected remarkably well upon his character. Saruman, however, fell into temptation after long study into the arts of Sauron. Like Sauron, he was one of the Maiar of Aulë. (Sauron abandoned Aulë to follow Melkor, but “remained mighty in the lore of that people.” (_Silmarillion_, “Of the Enemies”)) When he caught Saruman using the palantír of Orthanc to scry upon him in Barad-dûr, he understood him very well: for one thing, Sauron and Saruman were undoubtedly already acquainted by their old service to Aulë, and Saruman was likely chosen for his task because Aulë realized this and thought he was the best prepared and equipped of his remaining Maiar to deal with Sauron. But Sauron as a Maia was in his native power greater than either Saruman or Gandalf as Maiar (footnote to _Letter_ 183); and _Saruman, because of his lust for the Ruling Ring, had already fallen._ “[Sauron’s] cynicism, which (sincerely) regarded the motives of Manwë as precisely the same as his own, seemed fully justified in Saruman. Gandalf he did not understand. But certainly he had already become evil, and therefore stupid, enough to imagine that his [Gandalf’s] different behavior was due simply to weaker intelligence and lack of firm masterful purpose. He [Gandalf] was only a rather cleverer Radagast – cleverer, because it is more profitable (more productive of power) to become absorbed in the study of people than of animals.” (_Morgoth’s Ring_, “Myths Transformed”, “Notes on motives in the Silmarillion (i)”) Tolkien noted in _Letter_ 154 that those who attempt “reform” through the use of power fall in much the same way as Saruman, and in _Letter_ 181, he said that Saruman succumbed to “impatience, leading to the desire to force others to their own good ends, and so inevitably at last to mere desire to make their own wills effective by any means,” a plight that seems to trouble a great many people in this our own time. 

In short, Sauron was much weakened from his former self even at the end of the Third Age, so that he spent most of the first two-thirds of that age actively seeking to conceal himself and his presence, as much as possible, from the Eldar and especially the Istari. It was only in the final three hundred years of the thirty-one hundred years of the Third Age that he did not flee from Gandalf, and Gandalf the Grey was lesser in native power than Saruman (who, as is clear, had by that time already fallen to the temptation of the Ring). Even so, Sauron was able to overcome Saruman, possibly because of the latter’s desperately weakened morality and lessened firmness of character: Certainly Aragorn was a lesser creature than either Sauron or Saruman, but he had both strong morals and firmness of character, in addition to being the _sole_ rightful owner of _all_ the palantíri of Middle-earth, and was thus able to wrench control of the Stone of Orthanc from Sauron to his own purposes – but just barely, as he told Legolas and Gimli over lunch in Helm’s Deep. (“The Passing of the Grey Company”) 

Returning for a moment to _Letter_ 246, Tolkien wrote that
It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power. But this the Great had well considered and had rejected, as is seen in Elrond’s words at the Council.​But had Gandalf taken the Ring,
the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end. Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron. He would have remained “righteous”, but self-righteous. He would have continued to rule and order things for “good”, and the benefit of his subjects according to his wisdom (which was and would have remained great).​And in the margin, 
Gandalf [as Ring-lord] would have made good detestable and seem evil.​When in “The Shadow of the Past” Frodo exclaims, “You are wise and powerful. Will you not take the Ring?” Gandalf leaps to his feet and proclaims,
No! … With that power I should have power too great and terrible. And over me the Ring would gain a power still greater and more deadly. … Do not tempt me! For I do not wish to become like the Dark Lord himself.​The Ring would not destroy Gandalf as an entity, but warp him into a modified version of Sauron.


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## Hisoka Morrow

Alcuin said:


> The Ring would not destroy Gandalf as an entity, but warp him into a modified version of Sauron.


Well...consider it as another kind of "power", after all, covering your enemies into your own combat power is also a kind of "annihilation", according to strictly defined military terms, seriously.


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## earthfriend

When comparing various power levels, and ''greatness'', it needs to be borne in mind how much some of the characters evolved throughout Tolkein's writings. E.G. Gandalf of the Hobbit, hid in a tree away from some wolves, and was scared. This is not the Gandalf that as one authority held (can't remember if it was J.R.R. himself or a later critic), held that Gandalf was the last incarnation of Manwe, come to Earth to help Middle Earthers in their otherwise insurmountable struggle against Sauron. Strider of the Hobbit, was not Aragorn, later to be the Returned King and heir to the two Kingdoms, but was part of ''a tale that grew in the telling''. Likewise the Necromancer was not Sauron, Maia and greatest power in Middle Earth. Indeed the White Council did not ''drive him out'', it later became apparent Sauron feigned retreat and simply withdrew to a prepared position in Mordor


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## ZehnWaters

earthfriend said:


> When comparing various power levels, and ''greatness'', it needs to be borne in mind how much some of the characters evolved throughout Tolkein's writings. E.G. Gandalf of the Hobbit, hid in a tree away from some wolves, and was scared. This is not the Gandalf that as one authority held (can't remember if it was J.R.R. himself or a later critic), held that Gandalf was the last incarnation of Manwe, come to Earth to help Middle Earthers in their otherwise insurmountable struggle against Sauron. Strider of the Hobbit, was not Aragorn, later to be the Returned King and heir to the two Kingdoms, but was part of ''a tale that grew in the telling''. Likewise the Necromancer was not Sauron, Maia and greatest power in Middle Earth. Indeed the White Council did not ''drive him out'', it later became apparent Sauron feigned retreat and simply withdrew to a prepared position in Mordor


True, but I suppose we're looking at the sum of his currently known writings. We know Galadriel is stated as being as powerful as Fëanor, and we know that with her ring (and Sauron without his) she was so powerful she could keep him from entering her realm, and could read his mind concerning her and her realm from across the vast leagues that separated Lothlorien from Barad-Dûr. It should also be noted that Sauron is considerably powerful for a Maia (being Melkor's lieutenant and having had a part of everything Melkor did) and I'm sure there are certainly lesser Maia out there. The biggest thing is Galadriel is DIFFERENT than a Maia. Like all elves she's bound, hröa and fëa, to the world. Maia spirits are not. Mostly they have a different purpose.


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