# Finarfin turning back



## Confusticated (Aug 25, 2003)

Had Finarfin gone into exile would things have perhaps worked out better in the long run? If so, how might they have done so?
Could he had a different impact of Thingol than Finrod had?

Was his return to Tirion a thing which effected the way those of Aman viewed the exiles?


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## Manveru (Aug 26, 2003)

Hmm...
From _Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië_


> Finarfin was the fairest, and the most wise of heart...


I think that might have done _"some"_ good to the exiles in Middle-earth. I mean it wouldn't have changed the _"courses"_ of Feanor himself, but since he died shortly after he had arrived to ME, the councils of Finarfin might have been taken into concideration (as the most skillful in word, Feanor, perished).

That's for now from me (without much looking into the books). I'll try to come back after rereading some sources and... after deeper thinking about that issue...


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## Ancalagon (Aug 27, 2003)

I have oft wondered about Finarfin, whether he simply had not the driving ambition and burning desire to attempt to depart from Valinor, for it was not in his soul, nor in his temperament to commit himself to such a road as that of the exiled Noldor.


> Finarfin was of his mother's kind in mind and body, having the golden hair of the Vanyar, their noble and gentle temper, and their love of the Valar. As well as he could he kept aloof from the strife of his brothers and their estrangement from the Valar, and he often sought peace among the Teleri, whose language he learned. *Unfinished Tales*


 It is interesting to note the differences between Finarfin and his offspring, whom were imbued with the courage and resolution of the Noldor, alike to the Sons of Feanor in strength of character and in determination. Yet, the legacy of Finarfin was his wisdom, his generosity and nobility, which his children certainly inherited, not only from him, but Indis also.
Yet, for the turmoils that were to follow the exiles, I do not think Finarfin was 'cut from the cloth' necessary to face the woes and 'unumbered tears' that was to become the price of pursuing Morgoth.


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## Ancalagon (Aug 27, 2003)

Sorry, one further addition to that I wished to include was the mention of Galadriel and her desire to depart into the east, to seek out her own realm. It is essential to note the difference between her and her father, as this quotes suggests;


> She was proud, strong, and selfwilled, as were all the descendants of Finwë *save Finarfin*; and like her brother Finrod, of all her kin the nearest to her heart, she had dreams of far lands and dominions that might be her own to order as she would without tutelage.


 I think this sums up the spirit of those Noldor who sought to leave and return to Middle-Earth, to the land of their awakening, something the Valar had not fully considered when first they called the Elves to Valinor.


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## Confusticated (Sep 6, 2003)

> I think that might have done "some" good to the exiles in Middle-earth. I mean it wouldn't have changed the "courses" of Feanor himself, but since he died shortly after he had arrived to ME, the councils of Finarfin might have been taken into concideration (as the most skillful in word, Feanor, perished).


I think his counsel would have been taken into consideration, but what would his counsel have been at that point after Feanor's death? 

But maybe Finarfin could have built better relations between Thingol and the Noldor. He may have gone to Thingol at once, and levelled with him about what had happend. Had Finarfin spoke first to Thingol as a representative of the Noldor, maybe Thingol would not have viewed tham as being so high and mighty and proud or arrogant... a threat to his own authority. I doubt much could have been done about the sons of Feanor though. 


I think the most important thing that could have happened had Finarfin not turned back, is that he may have persuaded a much greater part of Fingolfin's host to return to Aman after they were abandoned by Feanor. Maybe this chance is tiny, or a lot will think there was no chance of this at all, but it is something I wonder about.

Or, maybe while the hosts of Feanor and Fingolfin dwelt at opposite sides of Mithrim like siblings giving eachother the silent treatment after being sent to their room for fighting, Finarfin could have brought them together sooner?

I can't help but think someone like Finarfin would have been of help in Beleriand, especialy when we have his son as an example of the difference one person can make. 

Ancalagon, while I agree the difference in Finarfin's personality was such that he was not quite cut out for WotJ, and even though Tolkien said '...as were all the descendants of Finwe save Finarfin' I also think this goes for Orodreth to an extent. I get this impression from the fact that Orodreth alone spoke like his father after Feanor's oath (heads up! Here come Inderjit, and others to talk about canon... Melko take this speculation!! ), and also by his letting Turin make the calls in Nargthrond. I am sure I do not recall all that Tolkien has said on Orodreth ruling Nargothrond, or am not aware of all that he said on it, but my own opinion is that Orodreth was not the best of leaders in those hard times of Beleriand. I tend to use what little is known of Orodreth to base my thinking about how Finarfin might have errored in Beleriand. But surely Finarfin was more wise than Orodreth. I am sure in Beleriand Finarfin would have had authority but how would he have used it?

But Finarfin in Tirion along with some of his people knew both points of view like none other could have. That of the exiles and those of Aman. This must have been a positive thing in Aman for those exiles.


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## Beleg (Sep 6, 2003)

> I think his counsel would have been taken into consideration, but what would his counsel have been at that point after Feanor's death?



IMO, to make a truce with the Feanorian forces and unite togather in the War against Morgoth. 



> But maybe Finarfin could have built better relations between Thingol and the Noldor



IMo this would be a soft spot for Finarfin. No mater how much he tried I don't think he would have able to reconcile the sons of Feanor and Elwe ever. I believe that this particular matter might even have effected the friendship between Finarfin and Thingol.


> Had Finarfin spoke first to Thingol as a representative of the Noldor, maybe Thingol would not have viewed tham as being so high and mighty and proud or arrogant



He would still have thought of the sons of Feanor like that, because they were haughty and proud. And remember Thingol's cold shoulder was mostly due to the rumors started by Morgothian spies and the sons of Feanor's attitude. [later to some extent, I don't believe he was angered by Finrod or Galadriel or any other from Indis] 



> I think the most important thing that could have happened had Finarfin not turned back, is that he may have persuaded a much greater part of Fingolfin's host to return to Aman after they were abandoned by Feanor. Maybe this chance is tiny, or a lot will think there was no chance of this at all, but it is something I wonder about.



True, but no surer way of getting the Feanorians wiped out more quickly. 

Here an interesting question comes into my mind; If the Noldor hadn't went back to Beleriand, or even if Fingolfin and Finarfin had both turned back, then would Thingol have sent for aid to Aman?



> Or, maybe while the hosts of Feanor and Fingolfin dwelt at opposite sides of Mithrim like siblings giving eachother the silent treatment after being sent to their room for fighting, Finarfin could have brought them together sooner?



But how? It was only due to Fingon's unselfish bravery that both hosts were reconciled; they wouldn't be brought togather by mere talks; some action was needed; an action that would show that both bore no ill-will towards eachother. He might have tried to placate but it wouldn't have had the same effect. 



> I can't help but think someone like Finarfin would have been of help in Beleriand, especialy when we have his son as an example of the difference one person can make.



Yes, his wisdom and the wisdom of his host was much needed, because the people that turned back with him were some of the wisest Noldor.



> I am sure I do not recall all that Tolkien has said on Orodreth ruling Nargothrond, or am not aware of all that he said on it, but my own opinion is that Orodreth was not the best of leaders in those hard times of Beleriand.



Orodeth didn't have a will of iron. He virtually became a puppet in Turin's hand in the last years of Nargothrond. 
No Finarfin was different from Ordoeth. For onething, if Orodeth would have been like his father, then he would have turned back but he didn't. Again, if he had been anything like his father, he would have helped his brother Finrod Felagund on his Quest, and Finrod was like Finarfin is some aspects. And I have never even read the slightest mention that Orodeth was even remotely like his father. Finarfin thought of prudence and the necessity of defend yourself; he would never have allowed Túrin to initiate the reckless attacks that later decided the fate of Nargothrond. 
His decision of backing Finarfin might have been based on parental love and loyality.


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## Inderjit S (Sep 6, 2003)

Beleg, Orodreth was the son of Angrod not Finarfin.

Can Orodreth be seen as a 'weak' king? Why? Turin was one of the greatest men ever. Orodreth and in general had great respect for him. When Gelmir and Arminas first arrive in Nargothrond and when they ask to be brought to the 'Lord of Nargothrond' they are brought to Turin. By whom? The people of Nargothrond-it seems that respect for Orodreth may have been waning. Gelmir and Arminas ask to be brought before Orodreth, not Turin. When they are brought to him he seems rather haughty to them and we sense some 'mistrust' developing. This mistrust may be merited. The 'Problem of Ros' tells us the Northern Sindar were said to be spies of Morgoth and Orodreth wonders why they come from the North, when they said they were of Cirdan's people. They also claimed to be of Orodreth's uncle, Aegnor's people, they fled from Dorthinion after the Dagor Bragollach, like Orodreth. It seems he doesn't recognise them. He then 'turned as he ever did to Turin for counsel'. This is echoed in the chapter _Of Turin Turumbar_ where we learn that after Orodreth hears that Turin is the son of Hurin and this is publicly announced, he gives him more power within his realm. But Tolkien seems to refer to the secrecy of Nargothrond after Curufin's words with little favour claiming that they fell from the highness of the Eldar of old. They rid a large portion of Beleriand from Morgoth's influence. Note that Orodreth also took a lot of advice from Elwe and obeyed many of his commands, prior to Turin's coming to Nargothrond. This would have been because of his 'reverence’ for Elwe, which all Finarfin's children had before they came to Beleriand, and of course he would have revered the High King of the Teleri like his father.

Finarfin would have gained much more respect and reverence then Orodreth. 



> . And I have never even read the slightest mention that Orodeth was even remotely like his father



Orodreth was in the 'full trust of Finrod'. Finrod would not err in such judgements, he evidently saw Orodreth as a person of great wisdom and sound judgement.




> Orodeth would have been like his father, then he would have turned back but he didn't.



Note in the version of the princes allegiances in the course of writing the _Annals of Aman_ and _Later Quenta Silmarillion_ Orodreth is either siding with his father in trying to calm down the Noldor or just stays out, which shows he was 'wise' in the sense that he wasn't drawn this way or that or that he sided with anyone. Finrod was like his father but he continued, Orodreth, Angrod, Aegnor and Finrod all went along because of their close ties with Turgon and Fingon (Argon hadn't yet appeared, since we are dealing with texts before Tolkien altered the Elvish genealogies) and because of their kinsfolk in M-E and King Elwe. If we take Tolkien's later ideas into context then it would have been natural for him to go with his father, Angrod and his mother Eldalote, who too went, since her name was Sindarinized. The only Elf who remained in Aman whose named was Sindarinized was Finarfin. (Because his children were referred to as the 'children of Finarfin'. the 'Fin' prefix was only added (by Finrod) after the death of Fingolfin in 456 F.A. 'Rumil' too may have been the only other Sindarinized version of a Quenya name, since Pengolod cites that Rumil never went to M-E and we encounter a 'Rumil', brother of Haldir, in LoTR) 



> Finarfin thought of prudence and the necessity of defend yourself



When *exactly* did Finarfin 'defend himself' or his people?



> , then would Thingol have sent for aid to Aman



Doubtful. The Sindar knew nothing of the Valar except Manwe, Varda and Orome, who they called Aran Einior, Elbereth and Araw-->Tauron. They wouldn't have excpected or hoped for help from Valinor, they would have been wiped out and the Sindar of Doriath would have been locked in the Girdle of Melian, until they were over-run. The Falthrim would have been destroyed if it wasn't for Celegorm. 



> He would still have thought of the sons of Feanor like that, because they were haughty and proud



How could he know what the Sons of Feanor were like if he had never met them? Haughty and proud? I think Elwe may have had to take a good look in the mirror. (If there was one big enough, that is  )



> later to some extent, I don't believe he was angered by Finrod or Galadriel or any other from Indis



He was angered, but forgave them. He forbade the use of Quenya in his kingdom though.



> this would be a soft spot for Finarfin. No mater how much he tried I don't think he would have able to reconcile the sons of Feanor and Elwe ever



The Feanorians had no 'problem' with Elwe. It was his attitude that was the problem.



> heads up! Here come Inderjit, and others to talk about canon... Melko take this speculation



There is no 'speculation' on this matter. His dropping from Son of Finarfin to Angrod first occurred in the chapter 'Of Eldamar and Princes of Eldalie in the 'Latter Quenta Silmarillion' (HoME 10), he is not referred to as being a son of Finarfin in Galadriel's talk in 'Of Galadriel and Celeborn' and C.T comments that J.R.R.T dropped him down a generation for some unknown reason, and in the Shibboleth of Feanor (HoME 12) he is named amongst the third gen. Finweans and is said to have played a important and renowned part in the WoTJ.


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## Confusticated (Sep 6, 2003)

'this speculation' refers to the speculation I was doing.




> (heads up! Here come Inderjit, and others to talk about canon... Melko take this speculation!!)


That was my nice way of reminding you or anyone else who was thinking about coming in here to set things straight, that I am aware that Orodreth was moved down as the son of Angrod (also, I thought you knew I know this?), and I do not care here in this thread because in my post was only a line of speculation, made not for scholarly reasons but for the sake of enjoyment of wondering about it.

I think we should be able to do that sometimes in this Silmarillion forum. Should we constantly try to point out what Tolkien's last known idea on a matter was if it conflicts with published Silmarillion? In this forum (Silmarillion - though not stated in the title I have thought this refers to the published Silmarillion)I do not think so. How many people here who love The Silmarillion have even read PoME? Let alone read enough of HoME to have any kind of grasp of the history of the writings? I would say: not enough that 'canon' need come into all published Silmarillion discussions. Published Silmarillion discussions should be allowed to exist, even if people want to toss in tidbits of additional information from HoME or UT which do not conflict with published Silmarillion.


But as a side note, I'll ask you: Who ruled Tol Sirion while Finrod was in Nargothrond and Orodreth still with his father in Dorthonion before the breaking of the siege?


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## Inderjit S (Sep 7, 2003)

> 'this speculation' refers to the speculation I was doing



I am sorry, I thought it was a reference to the speculation about Finarfin or Angrod being Orodreth's father. As I said there is no speculation. Orodreth was dropped down a generation, to Finrod (HoME 11) and later Angrod.



> and I do not care here in this thread because in my post was only a line of speculation, made not for scholarly reasons but



My comments were more directed towards Beleg who criticizes Orodreth for not staying with his father. Why criticize Orodreth when that criticism is not warranted? Isn't that unfair? Why not bring out arguments that would support your thoughts on the validity of a idea given by another person. You cannot compare Orodreth to 'his father' for a whole paragraph when his father isn't Finarfin. I would have thought a sentence telling people that he wasn't the son of Finarfin would at least have been included. Why use dated ideas for your argument?



> Should we constantly try to point out what Tolkien's last known idea on a matter was if it conflicts with published Silmarillion



When did I say that we *shouldn't * do that? Beleg was making a false accusation of Orodreth's loyalty (or lack of it) to his father. Tell me when else have I brought in 'conflicting' arguments into this thread? (Note that your accusing me of it.) I've stayed with the topic (Well the change in topic from Finarfin to Orodreth) without conflicting the _Published Silmarillion_.



> How many people here who love The Silmarillion have even read PoME?



You needn't have read HoME 12 for information on Orodreth being dropped down a generation. It is twice mentioned in U.T. Most people who have read the 'Published Silmarillion' have read U.T. Even if they have not isn't it better that we inform them of mistakes that C.T made in the publishing of the Silmarillion? The more information that we pass on to others the better the quality of the forum. IMO. (Three people that I know of here have read it btw. Anc. also quotes from the 'Shibboleth of Feanor' of which some was used in U.T)



> I'll ask you: Who ruled Tol Sirion while Finrod was in Nargothrond and Orodreth still with his father in Dorthonion before the breaking of the siege?



I don't know. We are never told. It cannot be Aegnor, since in the Athrabeth we find he holds Dorthinion in vassalage with Angrod. It may have been Orodreth, but Tolkien states that he was with his father in Dorthinion implying that his link with Tol Sirion was over. It may have been a Elven Lord, entrusted by Finrod, to rule there. There would have been many who were as capable as Orodreth for the task.


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## Confusticated (Sep 7, 2003)

I understand your thing with Beleg, but it was the last part you said after quoting me that I was talking about. 



> (Three people that I know of here have read it btw.


Which means we know about Orodreth. Though I have not read all of PoME, not Tar-Elmar or the LotR appendices stuff - making of the tale of years and such.


Maybe 'conflicting' isn't the best word, I should say 'contrary', as Angrod/Orodreth doesn't really mess things up that I have considered. 



> Why use dated ideas for your argument?


Well Beleg may not want to use them, but for some people the published Silmarillion is THE Silmarillion, and I think readers have every right to view it that way. Not everyone is going to read HoME, and some who do will still take CT's first, even though doing so makes little or no sense to some. 



> Even if they have not isn't it better that we inform them of mistakes that C.T made in the publishing of the Silmarillion?


Sure, it's good to let people know there exist another story in HoME, but everyone can't be expected to go read all that stuff or take it in place of what the published Silmarillion presents. 

As an aside: some people (I know because I am one of them) will not use information in an arguement that he/she has not read themself from the books, for example something they read in a post (or article) - even if they do not doubt the person who said it. I am against the recycling of information one has only read at a forum for example (unless of course they only quote the person who said it, or make clear that their source is another poster vs. speaking of it as though they know it for a fact from the book)... I see people do it and I see things get twisted or people speak of a thing they have not even read about in the books. It may not be wrong to do so but I dislike it. 



> It may have been a Elven Lord, entrusted by Finrod, to rule there.


Yes, this is what I think too. Wonder if it was your 'friend' Gwindor? 

Also, a belief that Orodreth as the son of Angrod was merely reader speculation, would be an absurd thing to think if one has read The Parantage of Gil-galad, which I thought you know I have. I therefore found it very patronizing when you explained it to me. Though I admit I was unaware that one can find this information in UT, thought it isn't suprising as that has some pretty late stuff in it, for example CT says in PoME, as you have mentioned, that he used Shibboleth stuff in the Galadriel and Celeborn part, and the Tuor and Turin tales (which I have read) are late writings.


As for the chance of Thingol sending for aid, I think it's likely enough when there had been enough ruin for him to humble his pride or maybe Melian advice it, or the Falathrim especially, who wanted to go to Aman anyhow but were left behind and did know about ships. Only Thingol had been to Aman, but everyone knew they had kin in Aman where the gods dwell.


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## Inderjit S (Sep 7, 2003)

> Well Beleg may not want to use them, but for some people the published Silmarillion is THE Silmarillion, and I think readers have every right to view it that way. Not everyone is going to read HoME, and some who do will still take CT's first, even though doing so makes little or no sense to some.



When did I state that the Published Silmarillion wasn't other peoples version of the Silmarillion. I was addressing Beleg himself, not the forum as a whole in that statement. Beleg is a bit like me, (Not that I'm saying I am a better scholar then him, that is beside the point, no one is a better scholar then the other) though a bit more imaginative and adventurous maybe, but he falls in the category of people of favour HoME over the Published Silmarillion (I think!) about his use of dated ideas. Beleg has read HoME, is there anything 'wrong' with me addressing a problem with someone who knows and understand the complications of Tolkien's Silmarillion? 



> even if they do not doubt the person who said it. I am against the recycling of information one has only read at a forum for example (unless of course they only quote the person who said it, or make clear that their source is another poster vs. speaking of it as though they know it for a fact from the book)...



Why not-I have learned a lot off the people here. I have learnt a lot more (no disrespect intended) from the people from the 'Revised Silmarillion' section of B-D. When I first went there I had no idea about what was going on in reference to the Published Silmarillion but due to some of the posts there I was able to understand better. Of course I don't recycle others points, I prefer to quote stuff I have found out myself, but my knowledge of what was in texts etc would have improved from that. But a think a lot of these is going on at the TTf and other Tolkien forums, it is not necessarily a 'bad' thing, and the people who are doing it aren't necessarily doing it with ill intent, but they want to learn more about M-E and short of buying the books this is the best route for them.




> Yes, this is what I think too. Wonder if it was your 'friend' Gwindor



Doubtful. He knew Finduilas before the Dagor Bragollach when they lived in Nargothrond. Could it be Edrahil? Or another Elven lord, maybe. 




> Also, a belief that Orodreth as the son of Angrod was merely reader speculation, would be an absurd thing to think if one has read The Parantage of Gil-galad, which I thought you know I have



I don't know what you have or haven't read. As you said some people still stick with C.T's version, I thought maybe you were of this opinion because your words prior to that statement confused me. But that quote was also directed at other people too, just to show the evolution of Orodreth's parentage.



> Falathrim especially, who wanted to go to Aman anyhow but were left behind and did know about ships



The Great Sea couldn't be crossed by the Sindar of Falthrim. (Last Writings, HoME 12) Their only other option was to cross the Helcaraxe. Surely Morgoth would have intercepted then? Also note that the coming of the Noldor was 'unlooked for' and that they believed they were emissaries from the Vala. So their unexpected return would signify that as of yet they hadn't turned their thoughts to Aman. I think that the Falthrim would have been eventually destroyed, the Green-Elves would have gone into hiding and Doriath would have eventually be over-run and it seems the Noldor share this opinion.


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## Confusticated (Sep 7, 2003)

As I said, my reply to your first post was not to address what you said to Beleg only what you said at the end after quoting me.

I thought you knew I had read Parentage of Gil-galad since I have posted about it a few times and also since we have discussed things from 'Late Writings' on MSN. 

About restating something you've only read in a post (or elsewhere on the internet):
It is risking enough to paraphrase or sum something up in a post, but for someone else to go off of that and make a statement it sometimes ends up coming off wrong. I do not think people do this with bad intention, I just don't like it and wouldn't feel right doing it myself. On the other hand, people trust sources at their own risk

But anyhow, this is getting way off point... really I over-reacted. I should have left it at: "For some people Orodreth is Finarin's son. I was refering to _my_ speculations with 'this speculation"'. 

For myself I do not have one set Silmarillion in my mind, and maybe never will. 



> Doubtful. He knew Finduilas before the Dagor Bragollach when they lived in Nargothrond. Could it be Edrahil? Or another Elven lord, maybe.


Do you think Finduilas was in Nargothrond at that time?
Also, I'm trying to remember what causes you to know he knew Finduilas before Bragollach? Surely I am forgetting something? But Edrahil sounds good. Was giving you a hard time about Gwindor.

About sending for aid, the sea could not be crossed at the time Cirdan was planning to, which was what... a few thousands years before Morgoth returned? But it could be that influence of Nargothrond elves which enabled them to eventually build ships that could make the journey.

And no, we do not see indication the Falathrim were planning to send aid before the Noldor returned, but it was only right before the Noldor returned that they saw any real defeat. I think they may eventually have sent a messenger to Valinor. But as for Thingol himself I don't think he would have sent for aid from Valinor until the Girdle was broken, and by then there may well have been no elves along the sea.

But:


> So their unexpected return would signify that as of yet they hadn't turned their thoughts to Aman.


I don't think this has to be so. While I think its likely they hadn't been thinking of Aman, they would still have been surprised to see the Noldor even if some of them had been thinking of crossing the sea, I think.


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## Inderjit S (Sep 8, 2003)

Note, I just found a mistakes in my text. Gelmir and Arminas were of Angrod not Aegnor's people, this they belonged to the people of Orodreth's father, not Uncle.



> Do you think Finduilas was in Nargothrond at that time?



Thats the impression I would get. Though she may have travelled to other places too in the times of peace. My quote about Gwindor knowing Finduilas prior to the Nirnaeth because they had loved each other (Of Turin Turumbar, Published Silmarillion) It also say in the 'Grey Annals' (HoME 11) were betrothed prior to the Nirnaeth, or thinking about it, and from what I can gather in 'Laws and Customs of the Eldar' (HoME 10) them considering getting married during wartime would be doubtful. But the Grey Annals (HoME 11) tells us that the Dagor Bragollach took place in 455 and in the same year Minas Tirith was taken by Sauron. The Nirnaeth Arnoediad took place in 472, 17 years later. This, I suppose may have been considerable time for the two to meet up and fall in love, if they had betrothed in war-time (This was rare not unknown amongst the Eldar) and he came or was the lord of Tol Sirion beforehand. Though one wonders why his father Guilin was not Lord of Tol Sirion, also Gwindor introduces himself as 'Gwindor, son of Guilin, a Lord of Nargothrond' and I also fancy the Gelmir was captured when Finrod went to the aid of Angrod and Aegnor with a force from Nargothrond that was surrounded in the Fen of Serech.



> About sending for aid, the sea could not be crossed at the time Cirdan was planning to, which was what... a few thousands years before Morgoth returned



Maybe, but I don't see what difference a few thousand years would have made in the marining skills of the Sindar or Falthrim. What I think is more likely is that the Valar would have gone after Morgoth eventually rather then them sending emissaries to the Valar for help. 



> While I think its likely they hadn't been thinking of Aman, they would still have been surprised to see the Noldor even if some of them had been thinking of crossing the sea, I think.



Maybe, but the quote says (or something along the lines of) the coming of princes 'unlooked for from the West' i.e implying that they weren't expecting Valarin help, but of course we later hear that at first they think they are emissaries of the Valar. 

(BTW, Nom thank you for a v. interesting discussion, something that has become a rare commidity here as of late, apart from my discussion's with Beleg and Eriol maybe. Even though this could have 'blown over' on a few occasions I feel it has gone well and it is also nice for us to be able to vent our frustrations with each other without being petty and having a serious argument with the arguing included.    )


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## Confusticated (Sep 8, 2003)

But what gives you the impression she would have been in Nargothrond before Dagor Bragollach? I am sure Dorthonion was not considered quite as safe as Nargothrond, but is it that unlikely it was so dangerous we are to think Orodreth should not have had his daughter there?

And back to the published Sil for a second: why think Findiulas was in Nargothrond before the battle of Sudden Flame began? Am I forgetting somthing?

In either scenerio, I think it looks possible that Finduilas was not in Nargothrond before the long peace ended.



> The Nirnaeth Arnoediad took place in 472, 17 years later. This, I suppose may have been considerable time for the two to meet up and fall in love,


Do you think it is more likely that 17 years could not have been enough time?

Is this the reason the you think Findiulas was in Nargothrond before Sudden Flame, or is there something else?



> My quote about Gwindor knowing Finduilas prior to the Nirnaeth because they had loved each other (Of Turin Turumbar, Published Silmarillion) It also say in the 'Grey Annals' (HoME 11) were betrothed prior to the Nirnaeth..


Prior to Bragollach is what you said earlier... but the first 'Nirnaeth' in this quote may be a typo?



> Though one wonders why his father Guilin was not Lord of Tol Sirion...


 Good point.



> Maybe, but I don't see what difference a few thousand years would have made in the marining skills of the Sindar or Falthrim.


Well if over 3 thousand is not enough to make a difference what difference then would a few more hundred make unless it was Noldor influence?



> Maybe, but the quote says (or something along the lines of) the coming of princes 'unlooked for from the West' i.e implying that they weren't expecting Valarin help, but of course we later hear that at first they think they are emissaries of the Valar.


Well if anyone had played with the idea of going to Valinor, it might have been because they did not expect help would come to them if they just sat around waiting and hoping. I still think the Sindar's surpise and idea that the Noldor were come from the Valar does not rule out the possability that some had considered going to Valinor. 



> it is also nice for us to be able to vent our frustrations with each other without being petty and having a serious argument


Yeah but there was call to be insulted on a personal level about you mistaking that I called Orodreth as the son of Angrod a speculation. Especially considering all the times I do screw up.  You remember details better than I do, for sure. Such as recalling (immediately I guess, as it was not necessary to look it up for the topic at hand) the Sindarin name of Manwe.


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## Bucky (Sep 9, 2003)

> As for the chance of Thingol sending for aid, I think it's likely enough when there had been enough ruin for him to humble his pride or maybe Melian advice it,



Wasn't going to happen, ships or no ships.
The girdle Of Melian was their defense & it never failed until Thingol's pride got in the way.







> I have learnt a lot more (no disrespect intended) from the people from the 'Revised Silmarillion' section of B-D. When I first went there I had no idea about what was going on in reference to the Published Silmarillion



Please elaborate & provide a link if there is one....
Thanx....


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## Confusticated (Sep 9, 2003)

> Wasn't going to happen, ships or no ships.
> The girdle Of Melian was their defense & it never failed until Thingol's pride got in the way.


But it did fail. It was capable of failing, and if the Noldor had not returned how long should it have stood against Morgoth?


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## Bucky (Sep 9, 2003)

> But it did fail. It was capable of failing, and if the Noldor had not returned how long should it have stood against Morgoth?



It was not capable of failing & it did not fail. 
It's power was 'withdrawn for a time' by Melian's grief induced lack of focus.
Even if Morgoth had the guts to come there himself, which he did not, he may not have had the power to break it any longer.
Doesn't The Sil say that he feared Melian?
Also that she perceived more of his thought or he none of her's? 
(sorry, insomnia since 2AM)

Either way, it's clear she was still as strong as ever & Morgoth wasn't (see Ungoliant).


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## Inderjit S (Sep 9, 2003)

> Even if Morgoth had the guts to come there himself, which he did not, he may not have had the power to break it any longer.



Carcharoth broke it. Morgoth was more powerful then any Maia. Here's you link on the B-D, Bucky. 

Barrow-Downs Silmarillion Revison


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## Confusticated (Sep 9, 2003)

But to be fair Carcharoth had the power of the silmaril with him. But if Morgoth himself had come to Doriath, he should break the girdle too even if only because he'd have the power of three silmarils.

But I think Morgoth could have found some way to break the girdle eventualy. He may have even used the dwarves or men to do it somehow. Of course if you believe Morgoth could not have done this, then I can see how you think the Girdle would not have been broken. I think evil could find a way.


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## Inderjit S (Sep 9, 2003)

Nom, Bucky says it 'never failed'. It did....

(Sorry should have posted that in the post as well, to make it more clear.)


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## Inderjit S (Sep 9, 2003)

> I am sure Dorthonion was not considered quite as safe as Nargothrond, but is it that unlikely it was so dangerous we are to think Orodreth should not have had his daughter there



In the 'Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth' we learn that him and his brothers had no faith in the siege and knew it would be broken. Orodreth, of course would have shared this view. Dorthinion was the most dangerous part in all Beleriand, it was one of the only places where skirmishes were still taking place (Except maybe for the Pass of Aglon where in (Of Maeglin, HoME 11) Curufin and Celegorm are said to be, rather confusingly, preparing for battle) and so I think it would have been natural for Orodreth, to safeguard his son/HOT daughter (hehe) who were quite young, since their Mom was a 'Sindarin lady of the North' and send them to the hidden refuge of Nargothrond, which Morgoth knew nothing about. I think it was more likely for him to send Finduilas there, since she was a woman, and though Elves Nissi (prior to pregnancy) could fight as well as Neri, Elven Neri were naturally more suited to battles then Nissi. But of course I have no basis for this theory of mine just a little idea from me, the validity of it is questionable but then again so are all theories.   



> And back to the published Sil for a second: why think Findiulas was in Nargothrond before the battle of Sudden Flame began? Am I forgetting somthing



Same argument really. Except my theory is a bit weaker in this case, maybe. 



> Prior to Bragollach is what you said earlier... but the first 'Nirnaeth' in this quote may be a typo?



As I said it was a mistake, I meant to say the 'Nirnaeth Arnoediad' but I said 'Dagor Bragollach'. They constituted the same thing, in my mind, when I wrote it, except I got the names wrong. Sorry.



> Well if over 3 thousand is not enough to make a difference what difference then would a few more hundred make unless it was Noldor influence



What I meant to say is the Belegaer would have been impassable both then and when the Noldor arrived, that is the impression I got from the text, 



> And the voice warned him not to attempt this peril; for his strength and skill would not be able to build any ship able to dare the winds and waves of the Great Sea for many long years yet


 _Last Writings; HoME 12_ 

Implies that no matter how much his skill improved as a ship-Wright, or of his marining skills he would not be able to reach Valinor for a long time because of his pivotal role in the storyline of the Silmarillion and because at that time Belegaer would have been impassable.




> Do you think it is more likely that 17 years could not have been enough time



I suppose it could be long enough to fall in love.



> Yeah but there was call to be insulted on a personal level about you mistaking that I called Orodreth as the son of Angrod a speculation



And I am sorry for it.


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## Confusticated (Sep 9, 2003)

This bit you are interpreting from PoME is also what I had in mind but I do not take the same meaning from it.

"And the voice warned him not to attempt this peril; for his strength and skill would not be able to build any ship able to dare the winds and waves of the Great Sea for many long years yet. 'Abide now that time, for when it comes then will your work be of utmost worth..."

I take this to mean that Cirdan and his people were just not good enough at building ships yet, though one day he would be and then it would prove to have been a great thing. 

Around what point in time do you think Cirdan's skill reached a level where ships could reach Aman (neverminding it was fenced)?

But do you think the Noldor taught Cirdan a thing or two which allowed him to reach this level of skill by the time of Earendil? All that I recall is that Nargothrond elves did make ships. If he reached this level no thanks to the Noldor, than why shouldn't he have reached it if the Noldor had not returned?

And I had forgot that the Teleri had been making boats along the journey west, before they even reached the coasts, so I had been thinking that this was a very new craft for them at the time Cirdan got his message. 

Sure, Orodreth probably thought like Aegnor and Angrod that the seige would not hold. I hadn't thought of that before, and it reminds me by the way, that he might have been with them in their support of Fingolfin's idea, not long before Bragollach, to assault Angband. That Orodreth was not of the same opinion as them in the Tol Sirion version, might or might not be indication that he felt safe there in Tol Sirion.

I do not know why you ment to say 'Nirnaeth' originally instead of 'Dagor Bragollach'? If you had said Nirnaeth, I do not know what point you would have been making.

Your point in mentioning Dagor Bragollach seemed to be that Gwindor knowing Finduilas before Dagor Bragollach is evidence that Gwindor was not at Tol Sirion but Nargothrond instead. I agree that evidence would imply the conclusion, but I found the evidence questionable. Edrahil somehow does seem more likely though.



!


> > Yeah but there was call to be insulted on a personal level about you mistaking that I called Orodreth as the son of Angrod a speculation
> 
> 
> And I am sorry for it.


Bad typo on my part! That should have said "there was *no* call to be insulted"!


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## Inderjit S (Sep 14, 2003)

> I take this to mean that Cirdan and his people were just not good enough at building ships yet, though one day he would be and then it would prove to have been a great thing.



Different interpretations, I guess.



> But do you think the Noldor taught Cirdan a thing or two which allowed him to reach this level of skill by the time of Earendil



The Noldor had little or no interest in ship-building. 



> Tuor in his long journey by the west shores of Beleriand, after his escape from captivity, had been visited by the great Vala Ulmo in person, and Ulmo had directed him to seek for Gondolin, foretelling that if he found it he would there beget a son ever afterwards renowned as a mariner. Improbable as this seemed to Tuor, since neither the Atani nor the Ñoldor had any love of the sea or of ships, he named his son in Quenya 'sea-lover'.


 _Shibboleth of Feanor; HoME 12_ 

Nargothrond had close relations with the Falas. Finrod raised a tower, Barad Nimrais, down the coast from Eglorest, to watch the Western Seas. Barad Nimrais was cast down in the Dagor Bragollach. Turgon sent some people to Cirdan so they could send a emissary to the Valar. Voronwe, was amongst these.



> And I had forgot that the Teleri had been making boats along the journey west, before they even reached the coasts, so I had been thinking that this was a very new craft for them at the time Cirdan got his message.



Indeed. Cirdan was amongst the most enthusiastic in these early experiments with ship-making and marining. 



> Before ever they came to Beleriand the Teleri had developed a craft of boat-making; first as rafts, and soon as light boats with paddles made in imitation of the water-birds upon the lakes near their first homes, and later on the Great Journey in crossing rivers, or especially during their long tarrying on the shores of the 'Sea of Rhûn', where their ships became larger and stronger. But in all this work Círdan had ever been the foremost and most inventive and skilful


 _Last Writings; HoME 11_ 



> I do not know why you ment to say 'Nirnaeth' originally instead of 'Dagor Bragollach'? If you had said Nirnaeth, I do not know what point you would have been making.



Well, if we are working with the 'Published Silmarillion' we have no concrete evidence that Finduilas and Gwindor knew each other before the Bragollach, since we can presume that she was living in Tol Sirion with her father (Though, as I have said I have different ideas) and Orodreth only reached Nargothrond after the start of the Dago Bragollach, but we have concrete evidence that they knew each other before it.


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## Confusticated (Sep 15, 2003)

> The Noldor had little or no interest in ship-building.



I did not ask if you thought the Noldor taught Cirdan to build ships. I said "But do you think the Noldor taught Cirdan a thing or two which allowed him to reach this level of skill by the time of Earendil?" and a couple posts before that: "Well if over 3 thousand [Years of the Sun] is not enough to make a difference what difference then would a few more hundred make unless it was Noldor influence?"

The Noldor were very crafty and skilled, and skills taught by them could be applied to ship-building. It is not far fetched, but makes perfect sense. The Teleri would probably apply any relevant knowledge or skill to their crafts, or use Noldor tools... who wouldn't?

However I went on to say: "All that I recall is that Nargothrond elves did make ships." 

From The Silmarillion, Of Beleriand of and its Realms:


> With the aid of the elves of the Havens some of the folk of Nargothrond built new ships, and they went forth and explored the great Isle of Balar...



So this:


> Improbable as this seemed to Tuor, since neither the Atani nor the Noldor had any love of the sea or of ships, he named his son in Quenya 'sea-lover'.


... is correct as a general statement but does not have to mean that none of the Noldor ever took part in the craft.



> Well, if we are working with the 'Published Silmarillion' we have no concrete evidence that Finduilas and Gwindor knew each other before the Bragollach, since we can presume that she was living in Tol Sirion with her father (Though, as I have said I have different ideas) and Orodreth only reached Nargothrond after the start of the Dago Bragollach, but we have concrete evidence that they knew each other before it.


Taking Orodreth was in Dorthonion with his father until the Dagor Bragollach, it does seem likely enough Finduilas had been sent to Nargothrond and therefore knew Gwindor before Dagor Bragollach, but I fail to see any 'concrete evidence'.

But my point was that I do not see what point you were making when you said Gwindor knew Finduilas before Dagor Bragollach if you ment to say Nirnaeth. He knew her before Nirnaeth - what of it?

But again I'll restate my point about the Noldor influence in Cirdan's ship-building. I do not see how you can think the Falathrim would not have been able to make it to Aman if not for the exile of the Noldor, if you also think the Noldor had no influence on the skill of the Falathrim's ship building.

If the Elves of Nargothrond did not cause the Falathrim to add to their skill and allow for a ship that could cross the sea, then they could have reached this skill level without the Noldor. Right?

Again, they had roughly three thousand years (since the time of the message to Cirdan about them being unable to cross the sea) of experience before the Noldor even returned, and we know that 500 years later they could make a ship to cross the seas, so it is possible this last 500 did not make the difference (if you think the Noldor skill did not add to that of the Teleri)... and that the skill level had perhaps been reached before the Noldor even returned.

The only way I can see the Falathrim not being able to make it to Aman if not for the return of the Noldor, is if we assume the Noldor influence of their craft was none (but how could this be?) or was so little or such that that it was not necessary in Cirdan reaching the level to cross the sea, and, if we also assume that despite the lack of Noldor influence, the Falathrim were just reaching this level at the time of Earendil, and that Morgoth's return (in the what-if scenerio here - the Noldor do not return) caused them to be unable to continue to advance, and the Falathrim were ruined right before they reached that skill level.


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## Inderjit S (Sep 26, 2003)

Yes, but in the quote you have provided, the Noldor had the ships built by the Falathrim or had at least a substantial amount of aid from them. They may have developed ship-building skills in Beleriand but they had none in Aman, nor did they have need for any.



> But as the mind of Fëanor cooled and took counsel he perceived overlate that all these great companies would never overcome the long leagues to the north, nor cross the seas at the last, save with the aid of ships; yet it would need long time and toil to build so great a fleet, even were there any among the Noldor skilled in that craft


 _Of The Flight of The Noldor_ 


> The only way I can see the Falathrim not being able to make it to Aman if not for the return of the Noldor, is if we assume the Noldor influence of their craft was none (but how could this be?) or was so little or such that that it was not necessary in Cirdan reaching the level to cross the sea, and, if we also assume that despite the lack of Noldor influence, the Falathrim were just reaching this level at the time of Earendil, and that Morgoth's return (in the what-if scenerio here - the Noldor do not return) caused them to be unable to continue to advance, and the Falathrim were ruined right before they reached that skill level.



I'm saying the quote from HoME 12 tells me that the sea was impossible to cross at _that_ time. It was closed to the Elves of M-E-they could never go to Aman. After the WoTJ, the situation was different. Manwe decreed that the Elves should go to Aman/Eressea or else fade. So it was permitted by the Vala to cross, I don't think it had anything to do with any technological advances


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## Confusticated (Sep 26, 2003)

> Yes, but in the quote you have provided, the Noldor had the ships built by the Falathrim or had at least a substantial amount of aid from them. They may have developed ship-building skills in Beleriand but they had none in Aman, nor did they have need for any.



I do not see how it matters if the Noldor had no ship-building experience in Aman. My point was that it is possible that thorugh contact with the Noldor and Noldorin tools and skill, the Falathrim likely learned things that were applied to their ship-building craft. 

Aside: given the close contact between the Noldor and Teleri in Eldamar, I think some of the Noldor must have knew a bit about the craft. 



> I'm saying the quote from HoME 12 tells me that the sea was impossible to cross at that time. It was closed to the Elves of M-E-they could never go to Aman. After the WoTJ, the situation was different. Manwe decreed that the Elves should go to Aman/Eressea or else fade. So it was permitted by the Vala to cross, I don't think it had anything to do with any technological advances


Well, our different interpretations aside, (you think the sea was worse, I think the ships were less) I am boggled by this: "It was closed to the Elves of M-E-they could never go to Aman." as I had no idea that Aman was closed against the elves of Middle-earth before the rebellion of the Noldor!


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## Inderjit S (Sep 26, 2003)

Well that prior to the coming of the Noldor the Elves of Beleriand couldn't reach Aman, even if they had the best ships in the world.


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## Confusticated (Sep 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Inderjit S _
> *Well that prior to the coming of the Noldor the Elves of Beleriand couldn't reach Aman, even if they had the best ships in the world. *



Why couldn't they?


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