# Do Balrogs have...



## Ithrynluin (Sep 19, 2003)

...any wit?  

Do you think that Balrogs are highly intelligent, cunning and resourceful creatures?

Or just big bullies, whose main asset is their strength?


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## Lúthien Séregon (Sep 19, 2003)

Well, I'd think that the Balrog's main assets would be in terror, and sheer strength and fire. In the struggle in Moria, its ominous power or will rivalled that of Gandalf - I doubt that it would have to resort to cunning or resourcefulness.


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## Inderjit S (Sep 19, 2003)

The Balrog was a Maia. He would therefore have more of a natural intelligence then a lot of 'incarntes'. It was able to percieve Gandalf and his spell and it's counter-spell was 'terrible'. This shows a creature of some intelligence, as well as terror and strength. They were also able to communtinicate (Fall of Gondolin, boLT 2)


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 19, 2003)

We never see any Balrog utter a single word. I wonder how accurate the statement from BoLT is, and whether that was Tolkien's last word on the matter, or just a flight of fancy at one stage of his creation of the mythology?

The counter spell might have simply been a natural reaction of a Maia reacting to another Maia. It doesn't necessarily indicate intelligence.

It was also Sauron who was Morgoth's second-in-command, not Gothmog, or any other Balrog. Was Sauron simply among the intellectually most brilliant and cunning Maiar, or were the Balrogs simply not up to a difficult intellectual task?

Keep in mind that I am not saying that the Balrogs were thick as bricks, only that their intellect was rather 'lacking' compared to other Maiar.


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## Inderjit S (Sep 19, 2003)

If we are to disregard the _Fall of Gondolin_ then we have little material to work with. True, we never hear any of the Balrog's speak but how can we do that when they hardly appear in the tales? I really don't see why Tolkien should drop the idea about Balrog's being able to speak, even if it a old concept. The fact that the Balrog was able to utter a counter-spell to Gandalf's Door Shutting spell shows he/she!  had some idea about magic. 

Sauron was also a greater spirit then the Balrogs;



> Melkor had corrupted many spirits -some great, as Sauron, or less so, as Balrogs


_Myths Transformed; HoME 10_ 

But I think you are right, to a extent Balrogs seem to be less 'wise' then most Maia, though they certainly had some inherent wisdom too.


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## YayGollum (Sep 19, 2003)

Sure, I like to think that they had all kinds of wit. I haven't read any books with them for a while, but didn't they command some things? Or were they just big and scary and miscellaneous things in some armies? I forget. I like that balrog dude in Moria. That one definitely seemed smart to me. If they weren't so smart, why did they hide in the first place? Wouldn't they enjoy rampages and things rather than hiding and waiting? oh well.


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## Lantarion (Sep 19, 2003)

> *Originally posted by Inderjit S*
> The fact that the Balrog was able to utter a counter-spell to Gandalf's Door Shutting spell shows he/she!  had some idea about magic.


How can you be sure that Durin's Bane actually spoke a word/ words when using the spell? Of course, the very nature of a 'spell' is that it is spoken aloud; but we really have very little idea about the abilities and depths of Maiar in general, so who is to say that he didn't just mentally focus on a concept or word which caused the door to crack open?


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## Gilgallad II (Sep 20, 2003)

I'd always thought of the balrogs as not very intelligent but u have a good point.


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## Khôr’nagan (Sep 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lantarion _
> *...so who is to say that he didn't just mentally focus on a concept or word which caused the door to crack open?*


That's pretty much the exact same thing, only that it never made the physical effort of speaking it. Chances are that Maiar could concentrate on something hard enough to be as strong (or stronger) than speaking an actual word. However, that does not make it not inteligent enough to speak words... It may simply not have vocal cords or a tongue that is complex enough to form words. But thinking a word and saying a word require just as much intelligence. Besides, telepathy is already present in Lord of the Rings... When Gandalf, Galadriel, and Elrond (or was it Celeborn?) were talking to each other telepathically.

So, although I'm not saying they were as intelligent as other Maiar, I do think they were generally more inteliigent than the Children of Iluvatar, and that them not speaking makes them no less inteligent.


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## Thuringwethil (Sep 22, 2003)

My opinion is that valaraukar were intelligent creatures. Not as cunning as "evil geniuses" such as Sauron and Saruman, but still more clever than average Child of Eru. Yes, Sauron was the Second-in-Command in Angband, but Gothmog the Balrog was Third. But where Sauron's wit was sorcery, diplomacy (ok, lying), and long-shot plans, Gothmog and other valaraukar propably leaned towards warfare and tactics, along with some spells, and also those were more or less "battle-oriented".

Gothmog is described to pull some quite neat manouveres when confronting elven lords and kings. (Quite an impressive hit-list that fellow has, btw..) At the bridge of Khazad-Dum, those stone-slabs the trolls carried; invention of Durin's Bane, I believe. Trolls themselves wouldn't thought of that in a million years, and orcs had lost their chieftain. Plus Gandalf's description about the spell-duel at chamber door indicates that his opponent wasn't just instinct-driven. So I think valaraukar are intelligent, they just tend to be it in a "warrior" way, whereas f ex Istari and Sauron are more "wizardish".

But talking? No idea. Maybe they had no vocal chords (and used telepathy), or maybe they just like to act Clint Eastwood..


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## Flammifer (Sep 23, 2003)

> At the bridge of Khazad-Dum, those stone-slabs the trolls carried; invention of Durin's Bane, I believe. Trolls themselves wouldn't thought of that in a million years, and orcs had lost their chieftain.



Are you sure that the stone-slabs weren't thought of by the trolls/orcs? I think that the trolls could have thought of it, because I remember a quote from somewhere, and it's something like this:

"Trolls roam (somewhere), no longer stupid and dim-witted"

That is an *extremely* indirect quote. But there is something that is definitely to that effect, and it means that at the time of LotR the trolls weren't incredibly stupid.

The Orcs might have thought of it, they weren't completely stupid.

But more importantly, why would the Balrog think of it? He/she could handle this small company of little guys, and was by no means in league with the orcs of trolls or anyone. The orcs were scared of him/her anyway.

Back to the question at hand...

I believe that Balrogs do have a measure of intellect. As Maiar, they cannot be completely stupid, but certainly they are wild and somewhat instinctive, which takes away from some of their rational thought.

When they went over to Melkor's side, they chose to be intimidating and big and fiery, unlike Sauron, who changed his shape to suit his needs. This was not so with the Balrogs, and it can be considered, perhaps, that in the beginning they were not especially intelligent or wise Maiar, because they just wanted to be big and shadowy and fiery, and didn't consider their physical forms to be used to their advantage in cunning ways.


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## Thuringwethil (Sep 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Flammifer _
> Are you sure that the stone-slabs weren't thought of by the trolls/orcs?



No, I'm extremely unsure about it. The thought just sprang into mind while I was writing. Your quote is correct (and from _Shadow of the Past_, btw). Question remains, how smart is a smart troll, and were all trolls smarter, or just f ex black trolls of Mordor. Cave-trolls in Moria seemed (to me) to be quite simple "tanks", wihout much innovative skills, but of course it is a bit difficult to make a "rule" based on a few vague observations.

Orcs definetly thought about slabs, I think they are clever in all that kind of stuff, but I was thinking their lack of authority, since the leader was dead. Yes, maybe they could have told trolls to act, but maybe not.

So yes, it could've been trolls themselves, orcs yelling at them, or the balrog commanding. To me the last option just seems the most suitable, but it's only an impression.



> But more importantly, why would the Balrog think of it?



Valaraukar use minions, especially against lesser opponents. It propably planned to slay Gandalf itself (Boromir and Aragorn propably would've gone there too), and let the orcs take care of the rest. Too lazy to chase every hobbit one by one, I guess.  Orcs feared it, and very much. Why would they cross the fire unless ordered? But again, this is just how things look like to me.


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Flammifer _
> *He/she could handle this small company of little guys, and was by no means in league with the orcs of trolls or anyone. The orcs were scared of him/her anyway.*



I believe there was a certain degree of hierarchy between orcs/trolls and the Balrog. They would have recognized 'it' as being a great spirit and one of commanding stature, and would automatically carry out 'its' orders. The fact that they feared the Balrog does not indicate that they were not in league with it. The Balrogs were admittedly terrible to everyone, not just the forces of 'good'.


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## Khôr’nagan (Sep 23, 2003)

Great points, all great points.

I agree with ithrynluin in thaty last post, and I agree that Trolls, Orcs, or the Balrog could have thought up the slabs. However, doesn't it occur to anyone that the slabs were thought of years, maybe even thousands of years, before the LotR? Well, it occured to me, and to me that makes the most sense. One would think that in all of Moria, there's got to be more than a few small holes, and that Orcs would need ways to get across. The most rutimentry method would be to _build a bridge_. So they just knock out a few pedestals and take a bunch of stone slabs to use as bridges. However, you wouldn't want to leave bridges laying around in an enemy passes through, because then the enemy could use them, too. So, just make them mobile; make the Trolls cary the slabs around when they have places to go, and drop them over any gaps they might find. Making bridges seems to me one of the simplest of thought processes in such a situation, and even a dog could figure out that a broad branch could be used to cross a river.

Therefore, I'd say that it was just common sense, and that living in the un-kept Mines of Moria requires such applications of common sense. Also, I think that it was thought up many years before LotR, and that it was, by that time, ordinary for a troll or two to be carrting some stone slabs.

As for the Trolls you have mentioned, the missing word (I believe) is 'abroad', and it is indicating the Olog-Hai, which are the light-tolerant Trolls produced by Sauron in the years preceeding the LotR. They were quicker, more cunning, and fiercer in battle. It is my opinion that they would have been as smart as the avergae human.


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## Lantarion (Sep 24, 2003)

> *Originally posted by Khôr'nagan*
> However, doesn't it occur to anyone that the slabs were thought of years, maybe even thousands of years, before the LotR?


Uh... We weren't talking about who _invented_ using stone slabs as bridges but about which of the three enemy forces present (Balrog, Orc, Troll) thought of using them as bridges. What is your point with "slabs were thought of throusands of year before the LotR"?? 


> As for the Trolls you have mentioned, the missing word (I believe) is 'abroad', and it is indicating the Olog-Hai, which are the light-tolerant Trolls produced by Sauron in the years preceeding the LotR. They were quicker, more cunning, and fiercer in battle. It is my opinion that they would have been as smart as the avergae human.


What indication do you see that the Trolls here were Olog-hai?


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## Khôr’nagan (Sep 24, 2003)

None, and I do not believe that they were. I was just filling in the blanks i a previous post.

As for when they were invented, I was meaning that the Chieftan could have invented them before he died. People had mentioned stuff about disorder among the orcs being a reason why the wouldn;t have invented them, so I was providing a point that got around that, which to me seamed obvious. Also, there was a chance (in my opinion) that the Dwarves had made them before leaving, as chances are that the Balrog had caused much damage that probably included many holes in the ground. And, as the Dwarves remained for two years after the Balrog first appeared, they would have had plenty of time to run into such a dilemma. Then, after the Dwarves had left, the Orcs that came may have found the slabs, realized their use, and used them for their own. To me, that chance seems likely, even if not the most plausible.


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## Flammifer (Sep 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin_
> I believe there was a certain degree of hierarchy between orcs/trolls and the Balrog. They would have recognized 'it' as being a great spirit and one of commanding stature, and would automatically carry out 'its' orders. The fact that they feared the Balrog does not indicate that they were not in league with it. The Balrogs were admittedly terrible to everyone, not just the forces of 'good'.



Without a doubt there was a hierarchy between the orcs and trolls, it is debatable about the Balrog. I guess this all comes down to a very old question...was the Balrog in league with Sauron? Certainly the orcs and trolls were, I don't think that the Balrogs were, as they served Melkor, not Sauron (although he was higher in command).

Yes, they were terrible to everyone, but I doubt whether, in the midst of a confrontation with another Maia, the Balrog would have even heeded the orcs or trolls.



> _Originally posted by Thuringwethil_
> No, I'm extremely unsure about it. The thought just sprang into mind while I was writing. Your quote is correct (and from Shadow of the Past, btw). Question remains, how smart is a smart troll, and were all trolls smarter, or just f ex black trolls of Mordor. Cave-trolls in Moria seemed (to me) to be quite simple "tanks", wihout much innovative skills, but of course it is a bit difficult to make a "rule" based on a few vague observations.



Perhaps the Trolls were just 'tanks', but if so, they were willing to take order from Orcs, if they weren't smart enough to think of the 'slab idea' themselves. I do not believe that the Balrog was in league with Sauron, it was just a cruel twist of fate for the Balrog to show up at this time, it was probably because he/she sensed a Maia challenging him/her, and feared that he/she might lose his/her dominion in Moria. Anyway, the relevance of this is that if the Balrog wasn't in league with Sauron, I doubt that he/she would have ordered the Orcs to attack the Fellowship, he/she could have handled only nine of them.


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## Khôr’nagan (Sep 25, 2003)

Very true. Great points. And I also do not believe that the Balrog was in league with Sauron. But one thing that might have also attracted the Balrog was perhaps the Ring. It was of a great Evil power, and it is said that Evil things are drawn to it, just as they were to Sauron (or anything else of great Evil power, like Morgoth, Gothmog, etc.)


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## Flammifer (Sep 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Khôr’nagan_
> Very true. Great points. And I also do not believe that the Balrog was in league with Sauron. But one thing that might have also attracted the Balrog was perhaps the Ring. It was of a great Evil power, and it is said that Evil things are drawn to it, just as they were to Sauron (or anything else of great Evil power, like Morgoth, Gothmog, etc.)



Yes, I see your point. I hadn't considered the possibility that the Balrog might want the Ring and not be in league with Sauron.

I don't doubt that the Balrog could 'sense' the Ring - just as, I believe, he could 'sense' Gandalf, a Maia.


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Flammifer _
> *Yes, I see your point. I hadn't considered the possibility that the Balrog might want the Ring and not be in league with Sauron.
> 
> I don't doubt that the Balrog could 'sense' the Ring - just as, I believe, he could 'sense' Gandalf, a Maia. *



Well I won't go into the whole 'could Maiar sense each other' issue, even though I believe they can't.

For this question and for the Maiar sensing one another, check out this thread you guys - What caused the Balrog to awake?


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## Inderjit S (Sep 26, 2003)

> How can you be sure that Durin's Bane actually spoke a word/ words when using the spell? Of course, the very nature of a 'spell' is that it is spoken aloud; but we really have very little idea about the abilities and depths of Maiar in general, so who is to say that he didn't just mentally focus on a concept or word which caused the door to crack open?



Well, it was certainly capable of vocal sounds.



> With a terrible cry the Balrog fell forward, and its shadow plunged down and vanished."


 _Bridge of Khazad-dum_ 

But in _Letter #210 _ Tolkien states:



> The Balrog never speaks or makes any vocal sound at all. Above all he does not laugh or sneer. .... Z may think that he knows more about Balrogs than I do, but he cannot expect me to agree with him


 _Letter #210; Letters of Tolkien_

Of course he never says he *cannot* speak, just that he doesn't in the narrative. Since the narrative doesn't encompass the scene where the Balrog breaks Gandalfs shutting-spell. (In this letter Tolkien is critising a proposed production of LoTr, which he despised.)

On Maia sensing other Maia, Tolkien wouldn't have thought about such things when writing the chapters in Moria, since at that time Balrogs weren't Maia. They became Maia in the writing of the _Annals of Aman_ (HoME 10) which was written some years after.


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## Thuringwethil (Sep 26, 2003)

About maiar sensing each other.. I think it is in general possible. However, Gandalf is an exception. He cannot be sensed because the power of Narya conceales him, same way as Nenya and Vilya hide Lothlorien and Rivendell. Perhaps Gandalf's spells can be sensed, but he didn't use powerful magic inside Moria, until confronting balrog of course. If he "keeps quiet" he has "a grey mist around him" or something like that. Galadriel's own words from _Mirror of Galadriel_.

I believe Durin's Bane sensed the Ring, and came after it. It didn't seem to care about travellers per se, and didn't interfere when dwarves waged war against Azog. It just waited inside the gates if some dwarves would've been suicidal enough to enter.

BTW, I like the ending scene of battle of Azanulbizar: young dwarven hero slays the biggest, meanest and most dangerous gigantic piece of orc ever existed. Then he approaches the doors of the world's biggest, richest, younameit dwarven city. He peeks in. He returns quickly. He, maybe the most determined and bravest dwarf ever lived, is frightened witless. His king is about to reclaim Khazad-Dum, but he is all "oooooh no, you most definetly are NOT going in there". And Thrain believes this brat. I guess Dain was quite impressed by the incognito balrog..


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## Khôr’nagan (Sep 26, 2003)

Well, as it said in the book itself, the Balrog gave a great cry and fell. Thus it did make noise, and could make vocal sounds, whether or not with the complexity required to make understandable words. Thus, I stand by my conclusion that Balrogs had strong mental abilities that allowed it to speak to others, or at least to get it's point across, like placing a general feeling that it wanted them to attack into the minds of the Orcs/other creatures controlled by Morgoth/Sauron. Gothmog could certainly talk, or at least snarl. Let me find that quote...


> *Loud rose a din of laughter hoarse,
> self-loathing yet without remorse;
> loud cam a singing harsh and fierce
> like swords of terror souls to pierce.
> ...


* - The Lays of Beleriand "The Lay of Leithian," lines 3866 - 3903, pages 350 - 351*

Thus is said when Beren and Luthien enter Angband. I believe that, although the Balrogs might not have sung, they were probably at least laughing.


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Thuringwethil _
> *However, Gandalf is an exception. He cannot be sensed because the power of Narya conceales him, same way as Nenya and Vilya hide Lothlorien and Rivendell. Perhaps Gandalf's spells can be sensed, but he didn't use powerful magic inside Moria, until confronting balrog of course. If he "keeps quiet" he has "a grey mist around him" or something like that. Galadriel's own words from Mirror of Galadriel.*



The Three Rings were not about concealing things or making anything invisible. The location of Lorien and Rivendell was not hidden from the enemy. I believe the 'grey mist' comment refers to Gandalf himself, without any association with his ring. He is the Maia of Irmo, and I think this means a 'mist of dreams' is about him wherever he journeys.


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## Khôr’nagan (Sep 28, 2003)

Indeed, I do not believe that the Rings conceal anything. Narya had the power to strengthen hearts, not the power of concealment.


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## Thuringwethil (Oct 16, 2003)

Well, the Rings are another topic, and I've not looked very deeply into that yet. Just popped into mind.. However, the actual point was about Gandalf's "stealth mode" and, based on Galadriel's words, is quite valid I think. He couldn't be easily detected, for whatever the reason.

Somebody willing to open or dig up a thread about powers of the rings of power? Or specialities of Istari for that matter?


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