# Manwë's gift.



## Ancalagon (Jun 2, 2007)

> It was therefore the duty of the Valar, by command of the One, to restore them to incarnate life, if they desired it. But this 'restoration' could be delayed by Manwë, if the fëa while alive had done evil deeds and refused to repent of them, or still harboured any malice against any other person among the living.



Should any Elf in Arda commit such a travesty that Manwë Súlimo would deny him the opportunity to return to Arda and re-establish his life among the Valar? However, it is clear that Manwë Súlimo has a weakness in perceiving the motives of an individual! For example, although Manwë may be closest to the mind of Ilúvatar he was deceived by the mind of Melkor



> and it seemed to Manwë that the evil of Melkor was cured. For Manwë was free from evil and could not comprehend it, and he knew that in the beginning, in the thought of Ilúvatar, Melkor had been even as he; and he saw not to the depths of Melkor’s heart, and did not perceive that all love had departed from him for ever.



Surely if Manwë cannot perceive the darkness of Melkor’s mind, how then can he sit in judgement of the firstborn should they die and petition him for inclusion in the realm of Arda after death?


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## YayGollum (Jun 2, 2007)

*still hasn't read the book yet*

It says, "if the fea while alive had done evil deeds and refused to repent of them, or still harboured any malice against any other person among the living."

Not something like, "If Manwe judges that the fea would refuse to repent or harboured any malice against any other person among the living."

Sure, a minor point, but oh well. Mayhaps all Valar types are able to grab somebody's spirit and read it like a book. Mel could certainly detect the ones that hadn't decided to move towards the halls of Mandos, then grab them and make his own creepy use of them.


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## Ancalagon (Jun 2, 2007)

The question remains; Is Manwë truely capable of judging repentance?


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## YayGollum (Jun 2, 2007)

Argh. I answered that question by reasoning that he might not have required that ability. But oh well. As a matter of course, it must be pointed out that Mel was the father of all tricks and the uncle of all lies, was plenty intelligent and knew the sort of behavior that would be expected. Spirits of random elves wouldn't be as good at tricksiness. They had ideas about what happened to them when they died, but they weren't sure about them. Manwe walks up to a spirit, says, "What's up, yo? Having all kinds of fun?" The spirit is confused and probably awed, answers and impressions would come readily. Sure, I have the impression that Manwe isn't the most intelligent, is plenty naive, but dead elves are muchly different from Mel. I am not an expert on the screening process for gaining a new body. He'd be able to consult that Vaire lady's tapestry of all history to see who'd be the best candidates, which could help. Also, since he's the guy who's always in contact with Eru, and elves seem to have creepily as well as already planned out fates, an interview might not even be necessary.


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## Ancalagon (Jun 2, 2007)

> Sure, I have the impression that Manwe isn't the most intelligent, is plenty naive, but dead elves are muchly different from Mel



Indeed Yay, he isnt the most intelligent. Look at the quote....


> For Manwë was free from evil and could not comprehend it


 Does this not put doubt in your mind..as much as it does in his?


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## YayGollum (Jun 2, 2007)

Ick. Defending the spirit of sock puppet Manwe in any way is distasteful, but oh well.  Just because you can't comprehend evil doesn't mean that you can't identify it. The quote doesn't inform that he was incapable of learning, either. Mayhaps he gave all kinds of horrible elves new bodies, but, after a while, I would think that he could gain some experience. Yay for Mel helping out with that? He isn't the sort that I would elect to judge the destination of souls, sure. I would have thought that Mandos would have been the guy in charge of that. But then, again, Manwe had Eru to consult.


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## Annaheru (Jun 2, 2007)

I don't know if it's supported in Tolkien's writings, but I 'd always been under the impression that Mandos had a part to play in this decision-- something like Mandos observes the fea in his Halls, then gives a recomendation to Manwe, who has the ultimate say in whether a spirit is ready to return.

In any case, your quote only says that Manwe had the ability to _delay _a return-- it doesn't specifically state that he is responsible for the process and timing of restoring a "typical' elf (maybe that's indicated by the context. . . I don't have the text handy).


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## chrysophalax (Jun 3, 2007)

I would also like to point out that Manwe knew many (if not all) deceased Elves who might request giving life another go. Were I him and Feanor (for example) happened to stroll up and ask, it's my opinion he'd do a lot of snickering and then point to the door from whence he came.

Perhaps they have to appear before some sort of tribunal, as though they were on parole and Manwe gets the final say? And what of Orcs, at least the original ones tht were corrupted by Melkor? Would they also have a second shot, mewonders?


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## Chymaera (Jun 4, 2007)

If I had to be judged then I would prefer Manwë to judge me


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## Snaga (Jun 4, 2007)

Anc, I think the answer is in the quote you opened the thread with:


> It was therefore the duty of the Valar, by command of the One, to restore them to incarnate life, if they desired it. But this 'restoration' could be delayed by Manwë, if the fëa while alive had done evil deeds and refused to repent of them, or still harboured any malice against any other person among the living.



It wasn't sole responsibility of Manwe, and as you point out, a bit of a shame for Eol, Maeglin, Feanor and all the other dodgy ones!

Incidentally, how often do you think elves got reborn? I know of Finrod and Glorfindel - these were some of the purest-driven-snow type elves. Maybe it was only reserved for the best of the best?


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## Ithrynluin (Jun 4, 2007)

Snaga said:


> Incidentally, how often do you think elves got reborn? I know of Finrod and Glorfindel - these were some of the purest-driven-snow type elves. Maybe it was only reserved for the best of the best?



My gut reaction is that this wasn't the case. I'm sure that elves who hadn't done any evil, but hadn't achieved anything noteworthy either, would have been just as eligible for being "reborn" and that they would come back to life relatively quickly (in elvish terms), perhaps after a short stay in Mandos for self reflection.



chrysophalax said:


> And what of Orcs, at least the original ones tht were corrupted by Melkor? Would they also have a second shot, mewonders?



Take a look at the following from _HoME X; Myths Transformed_:



> 'this is held true by the wise of Eressea': all those of the Quendi that came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty and wickedness were corrupted and enslaved. Thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orkor in envy and mockery of the Eldar, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes.





> It remains therefore terribly possible there was an Elvish strain in the Orcs.(10) These may then even have been mated with beasts (sterile!) - and later Men. Their life-span would be diminished. And dying they would go to Mandos and be held in prison till the End.



But note 10 reminds us it may be wholly possible there is no elvish element in orks at all, and that they are merely corrupted beasts:



> 10. The assertion that 'it remains therefore terribly possible there was an Elvish strain in the Orcs' seems merely to contradict what has been said about their being no more than 'talking beasts' without advancing any new considerations. In the passage added at the end of the text the statement that 'Orcs are beasts' is repeated.



Of course, any theories we base on the origin of orks are shaky at best, but consider this: An elf is captured by the agents of Morgoth, brought to Angband, tormented and finally "transformed" into an ork. After having gone through all of this horror in life, this ork-slash-elf would, upon death, be further punished by being imprisoned for life (ahem), having no chance of escape. Fair?






Of course, it may be possible that such creatures simply refused to answer the summons - Even disregarding the orks' relationship with the Valar, I figure the vastness of Middle-earth would be the better alternative compared to the confined spaces of Mandos, if all you are is an impotent spirit, and all you'll be doing is wander about. 

Things to do in Mandos when you're dead. Hmm...


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## Confusticated (Mar 18, 2008)

Maybe he just takes Tulkas' word that the Elf in question is free of malice?

Manwe is singularly crippled/ignorant when it comes to perceiving evil, but he is the one to judge in this situation? It doesn't figure, unless he is in direct contact with Iluvatar at each judgment.

But this wouldn't be the first thing surrounding the Valar' handling of the Children that doesn't figure.

Rehousing of the slain Eldar - though I don't have my books handy and forgot the exact words, _Morgoth's Ring_ leaves me with the clear impression that in was the norm for an Elf to be Rehoused given enough time. 

(But elves like Finrod and Glorfindel were suggested to have been allowed restoration especially fast given special circumstances of their life and deeds - if I remember correctly?? Or was this just a crackpot theory? )


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## Elthir (Mar 18, 2008)

> _For Manwë was free from evil and could not comprehend it_
> 
> *Ancalagon*: Does this not put doubt in your mind..as much as it does in his?


 
Tolkien actually revised this section a bit, it seems (see below).



> *Annaheru:* I don't know if it's supported in Tolkien's writings, but I 'd always been under the impression that Mandos had a part to play in this decision-- something like Mandos observes the fea in his Halls, then gives a recomendation to Manwe, who has the ultimate say in whether a spirit is ready to return.


 
I think you might have hit the mark with Mandos being involved here. In _The Later Quenta Silmarillion_ it is said of Mandos:

'He is the judge of right and of wrong, and of innocence or guilt (and all the degrees and mingling of these) in the mischances and misdeeds that come to pass in Arda. All those who come to Mandos are judged with regard to innocence or guilt, in the matter of their death and in all other deeds and purposes of their lives in the body; and Mandos appoints to each the manner and the length of their time of Waiting according to this judgement. But his dooms in such matters are not uttered in haste; and even the most guilty are long tested, whether they may be healed or corrected, before any final doom is given (such as never to return again among the living).' Of the Severance of Marriage (_Morgoth's Ring_)

Later, I also note that when the Valar discuss the issue of Finwe and Miriel, Manwe ultimately says: 'But this matter I now commit to Namo the Judge. Let him speak last!' Mandos speaks, and Manwe follows with: 'So be it'. Therefore the Statute was proclaimed...'

On the change in the text (first _The Silmarillion_):

'... and therefore in a while he was given leave to go freely about the land, and it seemed to Manwe that the evil of Melkor was cured. For Manwe was free from evil and could not comprehend it, and he knew that in the beginning, in the thought of Ilúvatar, Melkor had been even as he; and he saw not to the depths of Melkor’s heart, and did not perceive that all love had departed from him for ever.' _1977 Silmarillion_ 

From the point 'Therefore in a while he was given leave to go freely about the land' Tolkien revised it to read:

'Therefore after a time Manwe gave him leave to go freely about the land. The evil that Melkor had wrought of old in wrath and malice was beyond full healing, but his aid, if he would truly give it, would do more than aught else to amend the world. For Melkor was in his beginning the greatest of the Powers, and Manwe believed that if he were repentant he would regain in great part his first might and wisdom. On this path he judged that Melkor was now set, and would persevere if he were treated without grudge. Jealousy and rancour Manwe was slow to perceive, for he knew them not in himself; and he did not understand that all love had departed from the mind of Melkor for ever' JRRT Morgoth's Ring

Of course here Manwe is still said to be slow to perceive jealousy and rancour, for example; but JRRT had more to say about Manwe in any case, in Ósanwe-kenta (Vinyar Tengwar 39): 




> 'If we speak last of the "folly" of Manwe and the weakness and unwariness of the Valar, let us beware how we judge. In the histories, indeed, we may be amazed and grieved to read how (seemingly) Melkor deceived and cozened others, and how even Manwe appears at times almost a simpleton compared with him: as if a kind but unwise father were treating a wayward child who would assuredly in time perceive the error of his ways. Whereas we, looking on and knowing the outcome, see now that Melkor knew well the error of his ways, but was fixed in them by hate and pride beyond return. He could read the mind of Manwe, for the door was open; but his own mind was false and even if the door seemed open, there were doors of iron within closed for ever.'
> 
> 'How otherwise would you have it? Should Manwe and the Valar meet secrecy with subterfuge, treachery with falsehood, lies with more lies? If Melkor would usurp their rights, should they deny his? Can hate overcome hate? Nay, Manwe was wiser; or being ever open to Eru he did His will, which is more than wisdom. He was ever open because he had nothing to conceal, no thought that it was harmful for any to know, if they could comprehend it. Indeed Melkor knew his will without questioning it; and he knew that Manwe was bound by the commands and injunctions of Eru, and would do this or abstain from that in accordance with them, always, even knowing that Melkor would break them as it suited his purpose. Thus the merciless will ever count on mercy, and the liars make use of truth; for if mercy and truth are withheld from the cruel and the lying, they have ceased to be honoured.'
> 
> ...


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## Confusticated (Mar 19, 2008)

While Osanwe-kenta does go some length to explain how the Valar and even the Firstborn can see into the heart and minds of others, and mentions Melkor was able to hide his mind, it doesn't give reason (that I recall?) to think that Manwe, in any case, couldn't be fooled by an Elf just like had been by a Vala. 

All of these things, and the fact that forcing yourself into someone's mind is evil, is only further evidence that Manwe couldn't be fully informed on his own to make the judgement. Other Valar and Iluvatar himself would have needed to be involved for Manwe to be fair in any judgement. 

If Manwe could slowly perceive ill will, by what means _did_ he perceive it? He cannot break a mind, so his perception might be in what he sees and hears in the actions of the judged. But even if so, shouldn't such a sharp and perceptive mind have become suspicious of the way Melkor gave most of his attention to the Noldor and also the timing of their Unrest. And how were Manwe and some of the other Valar so unaware of what Melkor was doing to the Noldor? One would think (especially based on what Osanwe-kenta tells) that they would have been especially sensitive to even the slightest nuance of trouble in the hearts of the elves, and have done more to understand the cause before damage was done that could not be repaired by the Valar in Aman.

But - I have always taken Manwe's ignorance as an _absolute necessity[i/] to the fulfillment of the tale of Arda Marred. If he could know evil as well as he knows everything else, what would he be for allowing everything that happened to come to pass? The head guy had to be a goody-goodie. Had Ulmo been the High King of Arda, sitting up on Taniquetil, things would have gone different. It was also necessity that the other Valar oppose Ulmo at times. Otherwise - what fun is Arda, and how rich is all beauty, if all is well?_


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