# Is Bombadil older than Treebeard?



## Niirewen (Oct 20, 2003)

I'm not quite sure about this. It seems to me I've read some things in LOTR that make this unclear. Let me see if I can dig up some quotes..

(Bombadil, speaking about himself in FOTR)


> Eldest, that's what I am ... Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless -- before the Dark Lord came from Outside.



(Gandalf, talking about Treebeard in TTT)


> Trebeard is ... the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the Sun upon this Middle-earth.



They both seemed to be described as the oldest living thing, but who is older? What do you all know about this and what are your thoughts?


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## Ithrynluin (Oct 20, 2003)

I think Tom was here from the very moment Arda was created - that is, as soon as Ilúvatar said _'Eä! Let these things Be!'_. He saw everything as it *first* happened.

In short, this is how I think things happened in chronological order:

1. Eru creates Ëa (the universe), part of which is the planet Arda, where all the stories we read about take place.

2. Tom Bombadil comes into existence the very moment Arda is created.

3. Many Ainur descend into Arda and become part of it

4. Elves awaken.

5. Elves rouse some trees from sleep by wanting to speak with them ---> Ents come to life.


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## Arvedui (Oct 21, 2003)

ithrynluin forgot only one thing:
3a. Yavanna creates the Tree-shepherds. (Ents.)


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## Starflower (Oct 21, 2003)

I agree with Arvedui, Yavanna created the Ents as shepherds of the trees, but it was the Elves who taught them to speak, so one would say that the Ents were incomplete til the Elves arrived


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## Bucky (Oct 21, 2003)

Tolkien kinda goofed up in the way he wrote it......

I think it's fairly clear that Bombadil is the oldest.

Don't forget that the Ents can't be as old as the elves right?

I mean, if Eru made the Dwarves sleep until the Elves awoke, he must've done the same to the Ents, no?

So, at the Council of Elrond, one of the Elves referrs to Bombadil as Iarwain-Ben-Adar, who "They met on the westward road & was already then older than old".....

That's old

So, either JRR just messed up his wording....

OR, Bombadil isn't alive.

He's a walking embodyment of Arda itself.


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## Ithrynluin (Oct 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Arvedui _
> *ithrynluin forgot only one thing:
> 3a. Yavanna creates the Tree-shepherds. (Ents.) *



That is incorrect.



> _The Silmarillion; Of Aulë and Yavanna_
> 'If thou hadst thy will what wouldst thou reserve?' said Manwë. 'Of all thy realm what dost thou hold dearest?'
> 'All have their worth,' said Yavanna, 'and each contributes to the worth of the others. But the kelvar can flee or defend themselves, whereas the olvar that grow cannot. And among these I hold trees dear. Long in the growing, swift shall they be in the felling, and unless they pay toll with fruit upon bough little mourned in their passing. So I see in my thought. Would that the trees might speak on behalf of all things that have roots, and punish those that wrong them!'
> 'This is a strange thought,' said Manwë.
> ...



In that moment, only the concept or 'fragment' of the Ents was conceived (though they were obviously mentioned in the Music), and they did not come into being until Elves had awaken them. So Ents are younger than Elves. There was no need for Ents to exist with no Children around, since their purpose was to protect trees and forests from being overly and greedily hewn by the Children.


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## Arvedui (Oct 21, 2003)

So what you are basically saying with that quote, is that the Ents did not exist because they did not live?
But it does say that


> When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also,


 IMO, the meaning of this is that they existed, these "thoughts of Yavanna."

On the other hand, if they can be said to have existed from the moment Yavanna thought of them, then they must also be older than the Children of Ilúvatar, since Yavanna brought them into the Music.
If that is so, then perhaps it would not be wrong to say that Ents were older than Tom Bombadil. At least if the agreed concept is that Tom came into being with the creation of Arda.

Strange how one small thought in the back of your head can direct you into a philosophical topic...


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## Ithrynluin (Oct 21, 2003)

> On the other hand, if they can be said to have existed from the moment Yavanna thought of them, then they must also be older than the Children of Ilúvatar, since Yavanna brought them into the Music.



Don't you think that the concept of the Children was an older one than that of the Ents, being devised and preordained by Eru himself? If he didn't want the Dwarves to awaken sooner than his Firstborn, then surely he wouldn't have wanted the Ents to be older than they either.

And how do you know that Tom Bombadil wasn't also in the Music?

In 'actual' age, both the Elves and Bom Tombadil were older than Ents, there is no denying that. Not that they are not both older than Ents conceptually too, it's just harder to prove, that's all.


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## Beleg (Oct 21, 2003)

*And then there was Aule*

And then there was Aule who created the Dwarves for his fancy, and it is also possible that their conception arose before the Shephard of the Tree's were created. 
I am talking about conception, not actual age.


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## Arvedui (Oct 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *Don't you think that the concept of the Children was an older one than that of the Ents, being devised and preordained by Eru himself? *


Well, simple reasoning:
The Children were not mentioned until the third theme, were they? And Yavanna's concept of the trees:


> I lifted up the branches of great trees to receive them, and some sang to Ilúvatar amid the wind and the rain.'


 must have been before that, as the Valar were not fully informed about the coming of the Children of Ilúvatar.



> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *And how do you know that Tom Bombadil wasn't also in the Music? *


How do you know that he was?
Don't you think it would have been mentioned somewhere if he was?


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## Inderjit S (Oct 21, 2003)

Bombadil seems to have been in Arda from the start-the Ents seem to be the first race that entered Arda, Treebeard was the oldest of the 'Ents' as a race, whilst Tom was a individual a intentional enigma.



> Even some whole inventions like the remarkable Ents, oldest of all living rational creatures


 _Letter #131; Letters of Tolkien_ 



> Ents the most ancient people surviving in the Third Age


 _Appendix F_ 



> When the children awake, then the thought of Yavanna should awake too, and it will summon spirits from afar and they will go among the kelvar and olvar


 _Of Ents and Eagles; HoME 11_ 



> There are or were no Ents in the older stories – because the Ents in fact only presented themselves to my sight, without premeditation or any previous conscious knowledge, when I came to Chapter IV of Book Three. But since Treebeard shows knowledge of the drowned land of Beleriand (west of the Mountains of Lune) in which the main action of the war against Morgoth took place, they will have to come in. But as the War in Beleriand was at the time of the hobbits' meeting some 7,000 years ago, no doubt they were not quite the same: less wise, less strong, shyer and moreuncommunicable (their own language simpler, but their knowledge of other tongues very small).


 _Letter #247; Letters of Tolkien_ 




> No one knew whence they (Ents) came or first appeared. The High Elves said that the Valar did not mention them in the 'Music'. But some (Galadriel) were [of the] opinion that when Yavanna discovered the mercy of Eru to Aulë in the matter of the Dwarves, she besought Eru (through Manwë) asking him to give life to things made of living things not stone, and that the Ents were either souls sent to inhabit trees, or else that slowly took the likeness of trees owing to their inborn love of trees. (Not all were good [words illegible]) The Ents thus had mastery over stone. The males were devoted to Oromë, but the Wives to Yavanna.


 _Letters of Tolkien_ 

The quote from _Ents and Eagles_ seems to contradict Letter #131 and Appendix F. The quote in 'Appendix F' should take precedence over _Ents and Eagles anyway_, but the writers of the Appendix were of course prone to human error.



> Don't you think it would have been mentioned somewhere if he was?



_Why?_ How do you know Tom wasn't *part* of the great Music.



> And then there was Aule who created the Dwarves for his fancy, and it is also possible that their conception arose before the Shephard of the Tree's were created



If you are talking about conception in the _mind of the Valar_ then yes, the Dwarves were first, thats why Yavanna went to Manwe, after she learnt of the creating of the Dwarves.


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## Ithrynluin (Oct 21, 2003)

> *by Arvedui*
> Well, simple reasoning:
> The Children were not mentioned until the third theme, were they? And Yavanna's concept of the trees:
> quote:



No, they were not _mentioned_ until the third theme, but I daresay the concept of them and their whole histories were already formed in the mind of Ilúvatar himself. He just did not show it forth to the Ainur until the third theme.



> *by Arvedui*
> How do you know that he was?
> Don't you think it would have been mentioned somewhere if he was?



The Music contained everything that eventually came to be. When the Ainur sang the music, they were not aware of everything that was coming to life, all the combinations that were forming, like the snowflake, which was a surprise to Ulmo:



> _The Silmarillion; The Ainulindalë_
> Then Ulmo answered: 'Truly, Water is become now fairer than my heart imagined, neither had my secret thought conceived the snowflake, nor in all my music was contained the falling of the rain. I will seek Manwë, that he and I may make melodies for ever to my delight!' And Manwë and Ulmo have from the beginning been allied, and in all things have served most faithfully the purpose of Ilúvatar.



Tom Bombadil seems to me to be a 'product' of Yavanna and Oromë, since he shares the most character traits with the two (Product in the sense that he seems to be a result of themes sung by Yavanna intertwining with those of Oromë). Even if that is not the case, he is an enigma, and why would an enigma get mentioned in the Music? Why should every single thing get a mention in the Music for us to know that it was indeed devised in the very beginning. There is much that the Ainur do not know.


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## Arvedui (Oct 22, 2003)

> Tom Bombadil seems to me to be a 'product' of Yavanna and Oromë, since he shares the most character traits with the two (Product in the sense that he seems to be a result of themes sung by Yavanna intertwining with those of Oromë).


You know, that is the most sensible explanation I have ever seen about TB. 
And that should answer Inderjit's question as well. At least on my part.




> Why should every single thing get a mention in the Music for us to know that it was indeed devised in the very beginning. There is much that the Ainur do not know.


Well, there is mentioned somewhere (someone will probably give the quote) that in all ages, something new and unforeseen will be discovered, so perhaps Ilúvatar have given himself the right to add things after his/her own fashion?


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## Bucky (Oct 24, 2003)

"Who are you, Master?"he (Frodo) asked.
"Eh, what?" said Tom sitting up, & his eyes glinting in the gloom. "Don't you know my name yet? Tell me, who are you, alone, yourself, & nameless? But you are young & I am old. Eldest, that's what I am. Mark my words, my friends. Tom was here before the river & the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop & the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, & saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings & the graves & the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from the outside."

TB was there before the Valar began working on shaping Arda......

Therefore, he's the living enbodyment of Arda (my guess) or one of the Valar (heard that before, but I don't buy it), or an unnamed Ainu of similar 'power' to a Vala......


But make no mistake, in terms of life 'born' on Arda, he's the eldest.
The arguement can easily be made from this statement that he was there before the Valar.
He was certainly there before Melkor, because that's the "Dark Lord" he's referring to, not Sauron......


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## meneldor (Oct 31, 2003)

Bombadil was in Arda before the Valar, no way was he created by them!


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## Ithrynluin (Nov 4, 2003)

> *by meneldor*
> Bombadil was in Arda before the Valar, no way was he created by them!



The Valar were there before Arda.



> *by Bucky*
> TB was there before the Valar began working on shaping Arda......



If we look at the Ainulindalë carefully, the events in chronological order are as follows:

1. _'There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Ilúvatar...'_

2. _'...he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and [color=sky blue]they were with him before aught else was made.'[/color]_

3. _'But for a long while they sang only each alone, or but few together, while the rest hearkened; for each comprehended only that part of me mind of Ilúvatar from which he came, and in the understanding of their brethren they grew but slowly. Yet ever as they listened they came to deeper understanding, and increased in unison and harmony.
And it came to pass that Ilúvatar called together all the Ainur and declared to them a mighty theme, unfolding to them things greater and more wonderful than he had yet revealed; and the glory of its beginning and the splendour of its end amazed the Ainur, so that they bowed before Ilúvatar and were silent.
Then Ilúvatar said to them: 'Of the theme that I have declared to you, I will now that ye make in harmony together a Great Music. And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices, if he will. But I win sit and hearken, and be glad that through you great beauty has been wakened into song.'
Then the voices of the Ainur, like unto harps and lutes, and pipes and trumpets, and viols and organs, and like unto countless choirs singing with words, began to fashion the theme of Ilúvatar to a great music; and a sound arose of endless interchanging melodies woven in harmony that passed beyond hearing into the depths and into the heights, and the places of the dwelling of Ilúvatar were filled to overflowing, and the music and the echo of the music went out into the Void, and it was not void. Never since have the Ainur made any music like to this music, though it has been said that a greater still shall be made before Ilúvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Ilúvatar after the end of days. Then the themes of Ilúvatar shall be played aright, and take Being in the moment of their utterance, for all shall then understand fully his intent in their part, and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Ilúvatar shall give to their thoughts the secret fire, being well pleased.'_

The Ainur start singing and weaving themes of the Music BEFORE Ilúvatar brings the WHOLE universe (not just Arda) into existence by saying #5.

4. _'Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, [color=sky blue]those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth_, that ye may see what ye have done.'[/I]

Ilúvatar shows forth 'those things that ye have sung':

5. _'Eä! Let these things Be!'_

Only then, AFTER the Ainur have devised many things in the Music, does the world come into existence.

Of course, this is not definite proof that (some of?) the Valar were creators of Bom Tombadil, since there were many things which came from Eru himself, and were hidden from the Ainur, but the possibility is certainly there. If it was the Valar who created Bom, whether consciously or not, I'd 'ascribe' him to Yavanna and Oromë, like I mentioned earlier.



> *by Bucky*
> The arguement can easily be made from this statement that he was there before the Valar.



In the Ainulindalë, the first to spring to life are the Ainur, they are second (age-wise) only to Eru. Only later does Eru create Eä ('Let these things Be!'), and presumably Tom comes to life at that very moment as well. If we view Arda as an independent kingdom without looking at the big picture, Tom would be the eldest. But if we view the Universe as a whole, Tom would be the third eldest creature, since the Ainur as a group occupy the second spot.


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## Kelonus (Nov 4, 2003)

Isn't tolkiens work great? I remember reading something in TFOTR that said Tomis older than old I believe.


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## Bucky (Nov 4, 2003)

_If we view Arda as an independent kingdom without looking at the big picture, Tom would be the eldest. But if we view the Universe as a whole, Tom would be the third eldest creature, since the Ainur as a group occupy the second spot._

Agreed, but......

I think we can only view Tom Bombadil within the confines of Arda as we do not know of his existing _outside_ of Arda for sure........


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## meneldor (Nov 4, 2003)

I agree with Bombadil being created in the music unknowingly by the Valar, as the world was. As Iluvatar said to them " Behold your Music !" . Then did the Valar enter Arda and shape and mold things to their liking. Tom however says he was in Arda before the dark lord entered. I could agree that he was created during the music ,but I could also agree that he was created by the one seperately. There is no real proof of either. I do not agree that he was created knowingly by the Valar.


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## Bucky (Nov 4, 2003)

Did someone say The Valar created Tom?

I ain't buying that.

I don't have any proof - but there's none to deny it either - but I just see him as a physical manifestation of Arda itself.
Or, an inigma.
Or, both at once....


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## Helcaraxë (Nov 8, 2003)

Here's my theory on Bombadil.

I think he is the manifestation of nature's freedom. He had no desire to rule, which is why the ring did not affect him (the ring merely builds upon attributes the bearer already possess.)

I think to some extent he is a spirit (similar to the Ainur, but a part of Arda, not outside of it as the Ainur were.)

Tolkien, in a purely literary sense, described TB as "the spirit of the vanishing oxford countryside" or something like that.

--MB


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## Bucky (Nov 8, 2003)

I believe JRRT described Tom as exactly that in one of his letters.....


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## treebeardgarden (Dec 18, 2004)

Meneldor is correct:

Bombadil was in Arda before the Valar, no way was he created by them

Tom Bombadil is the eldest *if he is to be believed. *
he refers to himself as the eldest, here before rivers etc.
If he is here before the rivers where would the Ent's, Trebeard included get any water.


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## SpankusAurilius (Jan 13, 2005)

is it not possible that bombadil was that of the maiar, the servents of the valar?


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## Ceorl (Jan 29, 2005)

To my mind there are only two possibilities for Bombadil, either he is a nature spirit - a physical manifestation of nature, or else he is a spirit from outside, not related to the Ainur. When Arda was created, Tolkien says that many spirits descended into it from outside. Ungoliant was one of these. 

In either case, I think that it is fair to say that Bombadil would have been older than the Ents, which would, by The Silmarillion, have come into existence when the Elves first awoke



> When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein



When Gandalf states that Treebeard is the oldest living thing to walk in Middle-Earth, I believe he is overlooking Bombadil, as he wouldn't consider him a contender for that title... wow just had a brainwave: If Bombadil was oldest as he claims, and Gandalf knew this yet called Treebeard the oldest living thing, he is now excluding himself as well, for we know for a fact that the Maiar Olorin is much older than Treebeard, yet we assume that he pulls himself out of the running as he is a spirit not of this world. Therefore to discount Bombadil also, Bombadil should be of a similar order. 

Therefore assuming Bombadil is older than Treebeard, Bombadil is not a being 'born of Middle-Earth' (and I would guess Arda).


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## OldTomBombadil (Feb 27, 2005)

Tom Bombadil is older than Treebeard.

The Elves are an older race than the Ents. As Treebeard himself says in _The Two Towers_:




> _Learn now the lore of Living Creatures!
> First name the four, the free peoples:
> Eldest of all, the elf-children;
> Dwarf the delver, dark are his houses;
> ...




And Tom is older even than the Elves.

As Elrond states at "The Council of Elrond" in _The Fellowship of the Ring_, the Elves' name for Tom is Iarwain Ben-adar, which in Sindarin means oldest and fatherless.

Then there is the passage from "In the House of Tom Bombadil" in _The Fellowship of the Ring_:




> When they caught his words again they found that he had now wandered into strange regions beyond their memory and beyond their waking thought, into times when the world was wider, and the seas singing out into ancient starlight to the western Shore; and still on and back tom went singing into ancient starlight, when only the Elf-sires were awake.


 
then Tom tells the hobbits,




> '...Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn...When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless--before the Dark Lord came from Outside.'


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