# A strange thought!



## Ancalagon (Sep 13, 2004)

Hello all.
A while back I was reading through some threads in the forum that questioned why general activity seemed to be in decline on the forum. Of course as with all things they reach high and lows and The Tolkien Forum is no different. 
However, I was discussing with my son whether he would consider joining a forum and what he would like to see on it and, being 12 and having read the Lord of the Rings, he said he would like a place where he could not only talk about this work, but also J K Rowlings Harry Potter series. Being one of those awful purists I was taken aback, wondering how he could dare utter these two in the same breath...until he asked me to read them. I was stumped, I could not sit and lecture him on why Tolkien was so much more superior as I had never read Rowling. To prove a point, I read Harry Potter and the Philosophers Stone...then out of interest I moved on to Chamber of Secrets...strangely engrossed I read all the way through the 5 books. I found myself talking them through with my son, questioning action, characters, motives etc. in very much the same way I have done on this forum with Tolkien. 

I then wondered at my sons words: why not have a place where people can talk about both? Then again, surely if you talk about this, then you would need to add in The Narnia works, Wheel of Time etc. etc. Anyhoo, it was on my mind, my son asked the question and I couldn't really answer, so I wonder if the members of the forum can?


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## Aldanil (Sep 13, 2004)

*Re: A strange thought! (or, An Even More Open-minded Forum)*

In that ringing phrase immortalized by Steve Martin and Dan Ackroyd as the Swinging Czechoslovakian Brothers, "No one is preventing us!"


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## reem (Sep 14, 2004)

Actually, TTF was like that, *Ancalagon*. But I think it got to the degree where things got a bit carried away and less attention was given to Tolkien and his books, so they removed the non-Tolkien-related topics.
reem


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## Arvedui (Sep 14, 2004)

Strangely enough, I have had the same thoughts myself, that there should be some sort of "Fantasy Forum" where each author is rewarded with a separate section. I have not read many works of fantasy, but I know that others have. And I would add 'The Hitch-hiker' to the list, of course.


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## Manveru (Sep 14, 2004)

i was brought here with the wind of fantasy originally from sf-fandom.com 
they have there a kind of forum you slightly hint at creating. must admit, it was my first forum to participate at, they have nice atmosphere out there, really not-only-Tolkien-related... tho i don't think they have greater bunch of people participating having this in mind...

so, _quo vadis_, TTF?


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## Beleg (Sep 14, 2004)

I visit numerous fantasy forums and they are really great places... It would be great to have a forum that caters not only to Tolkien but to other greats like Heinlein, Asimov, Donaldson, Jordan, Clark, D-ick among others. Harry Potter forums, on the other hand, are a rather different matter.


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## reem (Sep 14, 2004)

Beleg said:


> ...not only to Tolkien but to other greats like Heinlein, Asimov, Donaldson, Jordan, Clark, D-ick among others.


Asimov wasn't a fantasy writer, though, was he? He's more of Sci-fi. But would diversifying the forums be a good idea in the end? Keeping in mind that its supposed to be a Tolkien Forum
reem


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## Inderjit S (Sep 14, 2004)

Nice idea, Ancalagon, but I think such a forum would diverge too far away from what this forum is-a Tolkien forum. Diversity may be lacking, but as far as I know diversity is not salient-discussion on Tolkien are. We also have a 'Stuff and Bother' section for light-hearted posts, as well as discussion on politics and religion, and although I have already said that discussions on Tolkien are important, I concede that the Tolkien forum is not wholly a Tolkien forum, and is slightly multifarious-but I think any sections for other authors may diverge too far-plus any Harry Potter fans could set up their own quasi-guild in the 'Other Guilds' section. Once again, I succeed in being verbose when 20 words or less will do-I think forums on other authors would be diverge too far from the purpose of the forum.

That being said, the Tolkien forum Entmoot does have a Harry Potter section.


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## baragund (Sep 14, 2004)

It seems to me discussion of other authors and their works is fine but it should be in support of and within the context of JRRT's works. If somebody wants to discuss fantasy or sci-fi for their own sake, then there are fora set up to do that. If somebody wants to discuss fantasy or sci-fi in order to compare and contrast with JRRT, then this is the place to do it.

Clear as mud?


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## David Pence (Sep 15, 2004)

We do have a 'Related Topics' forum in the 'General Discussions on Tolkien's Works' category. This was, as described, setup for discussions _"about other material related to, or have been inspired by Tolkien's work."_

I don't see why we can't spruce this forum up a bit to offer better support for discussions on authors that fit that description.

The list could range from Herbert's Dune (though I'd personally like to ban discussions on any book past "Children of Dune"), to Richard Adams "Watership Down."


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 15, 2004)

Webmaster said:


> We do have a 'Related Topics' forum in the 'General Discussions on Tolkien's Works' category. This was, as described, setup for discussions _"about other material related to, or have been inspired by Tolkien's work."_
> 
> I don't see why we can't spruce this forum up a bit to offer better support for discussions on authors that fit that description.



I think this is the best idea too. It should be established whether a sub-forum should be created for each author separately, and if so, which authors should be included.


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## Ancalagon (Sep 15, 2004)

I guess you could start by asking members what authors should be included, then a new author can be polled or voted in every month. Each new author can be added to the fray and over time, a list of specific fantasy authors will each have their own fora, relevant to their works. If over time one author seems to be doing particularly badly in the interest stakes, he/she can be replaced by another. I suppose one should have a cap on the number of authors the forum includes.

Just my thoughts...and how many times did I say 'author'

PS, Webby, what happened to SETI for the Tolkien Forum?


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## Nimawae's hope (Sep 15, 2004)

I personally love the idea of creating an area where different fantasy authors can be discussed. There are a variety of authors that I would like to discuss with those on this forum, but I have never really thought that I could do that without being stoned by various members.

As for the number of authors to add in the sub-fora, why not have the major ones (Rowling, Lewis, and whoever else is popular with everyone), and then have a section labeled "Other" (clever isn't it?). That way we could talk about less well-known authors without having one giant section on it. For example, I personally enjoy Patricia McKillip's writings, but I'm pretty sure that she is not sufficiently popular to warrant an entire section on her work.

Anyway, I really do like this idea. I think that adding this new section to TTF will result in my posting more frequently. Perhaps, others would as well.

Ok. I'm shutting up now.


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## Celebthôl (Sep 15, 2004)

Webmaster said:


> We do have a 'Related Topics' forum in the 'General Discussions on Tolkien's Works' category. This was, as described, setup for discussions _"about other material related to, or have been inspired by Tolkien's work."_
> 
> I don't see why we can't spruce this forum up a bit to offer better support for discussions on authors that fit that description.
> 
> The list could range from Herbert's Dune (though I'd personally like to ban discussions on any book past "Children of Dune"), to Richard Adams "Watership Down."




If we were to do this though, it would cease to be 'The "Tolkien" forum'...


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## Ancalagon (Sep 15, 2004)

I don't see the logic, how would it cease to be the Tolkien Forum? Surely Tolkiens epic is the pre-cursor for many of today's fantasy novels and somehow an inspiriation to a generation who followed. All this would mean is opening the Tolkien forum to literature (fantasy literature mind) by other authors who, it would seem to me, are favoured by readers of Tolkiens work.


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 15, 2004)

Why do you say that, Thol? The forum can have a lighthearted off-topic forum like Stuff and Bother, and another one for more serious off-topic discussions on politics, religion and philosophy, but if we were to have topics related to Tolkien (or rather, his style and theme of writing) _incorporated_ into Related Topics, the forum would suddenly stop being the _Tolkien_ forum??  I really don't see that scenario as a viable one. I believe that having a few sub-fora in Related Topics dedicated to other authors of fantasy could only add, not detract, to the forum as whole.


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## Nimawae's hope (Sep 15, 2004)

No one would have to post in the sections that have to do with other authors, anyway, just as no one has to post in Stuff & Bother now. Besides you never know, this section could promote greater activity among existing members because the new fora could provide a stirring of different ideas. Thinking about the elements of one book or author could get us thinking about elements of Tolkien that we had not really considered before.

After all, for those lovers of books who don't want to be beheaded for saying that they like an author who does not happen to be Tolkien, it could provide an outlet for their passion for books. (Not that you have to be a bibliophile to enjoy posting on such fora.)


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## Barliman Butterbur (Sep 15, 2004)

Ancalagon said:


> Hello all.
> A while back I was reading through some threads in the forum that questioned why general activity seemed to be in decline on the forum. Of course as with all things they reach high and lows and The Tolkien Forum is no different.
> However, I was discussing with my son whether he would consider joining a forum and what he would like to see on it and, being 12 and having read the Lord of the Rings, he said he would like a place where he could not only talk about this work, but also J K Rowlings Harry Potter series....



Like you, I was skeptical of the Potter series. Years ago I began to become aware of it — it was just "in the air" — HP lunchboxes, notebooks, all the talk on TV about its popularity among kids, who were reading it like kids had not read anything in decades! Meantime, my wife, who teaches first grade, was doing reading lesson plans with it. She was telling me that's all these kids were talking about. As part of her teaching of course, she had to have copies of the books. So when she was at work, I sneaked a look. 

_Before I knew it,_ I had read through at least three chapters, having a high old time, gaffawing and belly-laughing _a whole lot!_ When was the last time I'd done _that_ with a book?! These things were appealing! Nothing condescending to its young readers, it was fresh, funny, engaging and even scary. I was hooked!

I was completely taken with the whole British flavor of it, of the whole idea of the English boarding school. But there was more: Rowling is damned clever, and if she has lifted concepts from others (including Tolkien), she's used them in an entirely original way. And I love the way she makes her characters talk! She really captures the essences of several types of British English, at least for me.

Long story short, I've read all the books, seen all the movies and have all the DVDs! I'm a stone Potter Freak! (I just don't talk about it much on this board...)

Barley


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## Celebthôl (Sep 16, 2004)

Hmmm, i kinda read that wrong, i thought WM meant to make a big part totally for each other set of books. My mistake.


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## Richard (Oct 3, 2004)

wouldn,t Harry Potter work with one on one private chats : groups of two ormmore will probably work. In the meantime while I am just getting to know some of you I will like to chat with some of you about specific tolkien works. Richard


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## Starbrow (Oct 3, 2004)

I like the idea of being able to talk about other fantasy authors and comparing their works to Tolkien's. If we keep the discussions in the related topics forum it shouldn't detract from the other Tolkien discussions.


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## Helcaraxë (Oct 11, 2004)

Remember, Anc, that we still have the "Related Topics" and S&B forums.


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## Ithrynluin (Oct 11, 2004)

Yes, but at least this 'stuff' would really be related to Tolkien ( i.e. same genre; characters, places, themes, motifs, etc... modelled after those of Tolkien; finding similarities between works and new perspectives from which to discuss the professor's work...), and as such can warrant to have its own sub-fora set up.


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## Ithrynluin (Jan 19, 2005)

This thread has sunk down and I think the ideas presented within are worthy of consideration. Let us put forth fantasy authors that could be discussed in sub-fora of Related Topics, and see how many people are willing to discuss each individual author. I would suggest the following authors:

Goodkind
Jordan
Pullman
Rowling

The great stories produced by these authors could be discussed independently, as well as how they relate and compare to Tolkien's stories and characters.

P.S.: I have recently become an ardent fan of the _His Dark Materials_ saga by Philip Pullman, and would be fond to see this idea realised, as I have a few thread ideas up my sleeve already.


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## Beleg (Jan 19, 2005)

Goodkind - All I am willing is to bash him  - for the irredimiable tripe he has spewed forth in the form of Sword of Truth. 

Jordan - Yawn. His work is good [if a bit derivative, repetative etc] but dont think has much discussion value in it. IMO of course.

Rowling - As much as I like her, there are already way too many hp forums out there. though I suppose it isn't a bad idea, seeing book six will be coming soon.

Pullman - Pullman and Lewis shouldve married eachother in NZland.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Jan 19, 2005)

Ancalagon said:


> ...why not have a place where people can talk about both?



I see no reason not to make room for HP! At the very least, Harry Potter discussions could take place in Stuff & Bother (no post count credit unfortunately  ), but it could be done.

I was myself at first skeptical, even sneering about Harry Potter — _until I read the first book,_ found myself laughing uproariously at some of the passages, which converted me into being a _total_ enthusiast! It's not often that a _book_ of any sort has me laughing hard out loud, but when it does, it has my vote!

Barley


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## Starbrow (Jan 19, 2005)

I would be interested in seeing discussions on Ursula LeGuin and Michael Scott Rohan. Are there any fans of those authors out there?


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## GuardianRanger (Jan 20, 2005)

I wouldn't want the list of authors to get too long, but how about George R. R. Martin. I love his saga: A Song of Ice and Fire. I can't wait for the fourth book to come out.


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## fadhatter (Jan 21, 2005)

are you telling me you can google a JK rowling forum that has any decent atmosphere?? i find it hard to believe


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## Eledhwen (Jan 21, 2005)

You have a point, fadhatter. Even among Tolkien based forums I find this one is uniquely both civilised and interesting.

I would certainly contribute to threads about His Dark Materials (which I never really took to, but read right through), and Harry Potter, which reminds me spookily of my oldest daughter's boarding school back in the '80s (dorms in towers, cloak as part of uniform, remote country location, great hall with fire, etc.)

To be honest, I don't read a lot of fantasy because much of it just isn't very good (Raymond Feist comes to mind when I say this; but maybe it's just me). Stephen Donaldson's 'Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever' was fun to read, but so many Tolkien parallels you end up almost laughing.

Perhaps somewhere to discuss the Fantasy genre would be helpful, with subthreads for the various books and comparisons between them; but there would be a danger of creating a monster that would overcome the scientist that created it.


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## Halasían (Jan 21, 2005)

Th eonly advantage I could see in a Literary Fantasy forum would be the removal of all the movietalk.

I'd like to add Glen Cook, but since I'm the only one who has read the Black Company series, I'd be talking to myself.


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## fadhatter (Jan 22, 2005)

Eledhwen said:


> You have a point, fadhatter. Even among Tolkien based forums I find this one is uniquely both civilised and interesting.
> 
> I would certainly contribute to threads about His Dark Materials (which I never really took to, but read right through), and Harry Potter, which reminds me spookily of my oldest daughter's boarding school back in the '80s (dorms in towers, cloak as part of uniform, remote country location, great hall with fire, etc.)
> 
> ...




actually i think i may have missed a "NOT" in there  but take it however you may lol


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## Eledhwen (Jan 22, 2005)

fadhatter said:


> actually i think i may have missed a "NOT" in there  but take it however you may lol


It needn't have mattered; I'm a master at the art of deliberate misinterpretation - ask my husband!


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## Arvedui (Jan 24, 2005)

May I suggest Douglas Adams as well?
I know that there are quite a few Hitch-hiker fans on TTF already. And I think that it is only fair to call it fantasy...


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## Eledhwen (Jan 26, 2005)

Arvedui said:


> May I suggest Douglas Adams as well?
> I know that there are quite a few Hitch-hiker fans on TTF already. And I think that it is only fair to call it fantasy...


  You mean Slartibartfarst isn't real????


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## Arvedui (Jan 28, 2005)

Well, except from Slartibartfarst.
He is quite real, and preparring the elections in Iraq...


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## lamariaevenstar (Jan 28, 2005)

Ancalagon said:


> Hello all.
> A while back I was reading through some threads in the forum that questioned why general activity seemed to be in decline on the forum. Of course as with all things they reach high and lows and The Tolkien Forum is no different.
> However, I was discussing with my son whether he would consider joining a forum and what he would like to see on it and, being 12 and having read the Lord of the Rings, he said he would like a place where he could not only talk about this work, but also J K Rowlings Harry Potter series. Being one of those awful purists I was taken aback, wondering how he could dare utter these two in the same breath...until he asked me to read them. I was stumped, I could not sit and lecture him on why Tolkien was so much more superior as I had never read Rowling. To prove a point, I read Harry Potter and the Philosophers Stone...then out of interest I moved on to Chamber of Secrets...strangely engrossed I read all the way through the 5 books. I found myself talking them through with my son, questioning action, characters, motives etc. in very much the same way I have done on this forum with Tolkien.
> 
> I then wondered at my sons words: why not have a place where people can talk about both? Then again, surely if you talk about this, then you would need to add in The Narnia works, Wheel of Time etc. etc. Anyhoo, it was on my mind, my son asked the question and I couldn't really answer, so I wonder if the members of the forum can?


 
lol, that's totally awesome though that you decided to read Harry Potter to try and prove your point instead of being close minded about it 
My mother started me on the LOTR, or actually the Hobbit when I think I was about 10 on audio tape,and then we moved to the LOTR. I was also introduced to Harry Potter when I was 13. I know people have their select opinions about each series, but I choose not to integrate them or compare, because they are so different. Although they have similarites(death and conflict). 

In any rate making a fantasy forum that collected every author and discussion would be great ONLY if people could handle it. I dont like it when people bash other people for like this book or that, that's when i think it gets incredibly stupid and out of hand and just takes away from the point of having an open forum.-I hope that made sense


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## Eledhwen (Jan 29, 2005)

I'm sure there are bulletin-based fora already in existence for Harry Potter fans. I would suggest finding the best of these, and linking both ways (that's providing the best is any good, of course).

I also read Harry Potter because my children were reading them. I was interested to note that my 10 year old daughter read all five books avidly; but then decided she preferred The Lord of the Rings (books, not films).


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## lamariaevenstar (Jan 29, 2005)

yea there is a blletin based place for Harry Potter fans...I love Harry Potter and The Lord of the Rings, but i find this forum better, partly because most people here are adults and are a lot more mature


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## Maggot (Feb 3, 2005)

I agree i'm only eleven myself but inderjit s is completely correct about sub-standard english anyway anyone know who King Theoden's grandfather is? You would be a great help if you told me and i'd win a bet with my brother.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Feb 3, 2005)

Maggot said:


> I agree i'm only eleven myself but inderjit s is completely correct about sub-standard english anyway anyone know who King Theoden's grandfather is? You would be a great help if you told me and i'd win a bet with my brother.



Theoden's grandfather! I'm not sure that's mentioned, it sure stymies me! Where did you get the idea that his grandfather comes into the books?

Barley


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## Eledhwen (Feb 3, 2005)

In Appendix A, 'Kings of the Mark - Second line' Theoden's grandfather is Fengel. He was a greedy man, for both food and gold, and did not get on well with his Marshalls or his children. Theoden's father, Thengel, was Fengel's only son. He lived most of his life in Gondor, and won honour in the service of the Steward Turgon. Theoden was born in Gondor. Thengel returned to Rohan unwillingly after Fengel's death to take the crown, but proved to be a good king.

I hope you win your bet, Maggot.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Feb 3, 2005)

Eledhwen said:


> In Appendix A, 'Kings of the Mark - Second line' Theoden's grandfather is Fengel...



Ah! The APPENDIX! **slaps forehead** I should have known!  

Barley


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## lamariaevenstar (Feb 3, 2005)

Barliman Butterbur said:


> Like you, I was skeptical of the Potter series. Years ago I began to become aware of it — it was just "in the air" — HP lunchboxes, notebooks, all the talk on TV about its popularity among kids, who were reading it like kids had not read anything in decades! Meantime, my wife, who teaches first grade, was doing reading lesson plans with it. She was telling me that's all these kids were talking about. As part of her teaching of course, she had to have copies of the books. So when she was at work, I sneaked a look.
> 
> _Before I knew it,_ I had read through at least three chapters, having a high old time, gaffawing and belly-laughing _a whole lot!_ When was the last time I'd done _that_ with a book?! These things were appealing! Nothing condescending to its young readers, it was fresh, funny, engaging and even scary. I was hooked!
> 
> ...


 hey Barley, lol, i think it's great how you snuck a peak at it to see what it was about I was just a little girl when my mom had me read it with her, and i was INLOVE from the start. And about making "another" HP section, at least this section would be mature. Everyone in the HP forums are waaaaaaaaaaay too hyped about things when people make mistakes.(I'm still reading this thread, so sorry if this is like too late in the game so to speak)


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## lamariaevenstar (Feb 3, 2005)

Sara Douglass, Elizabeth Haydn, and Michelle West are pretty good, they kind of remind of tolkien in a way because they have many different races to bring together, Although Michelle West is more about gods fighting each other. i do not know their back grounds, I just know that I've looked at the cover of their books(and that's how I usually pick a great book by its interesting cover) and they have won my heart, plus they are usually trilogies or more. If you guys have any fantasy books that you think might be really complex and mind stimulating for me to read i'd appreciate knowing some authors I've recently ran out of books to read, and as much as I love HP books I'm tired of re-reading and re-reading etc. And 400+ page books aren't enough anymore, i tend to suck those dry in like 2 days. (My tv has decided the cable wont work for awhile so i'm stuck with books...not a bad thing...i've just read them all) I have a couple of book certificates so getting a good book would be awesome to read for a while.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Feb 3, 2005)

lamariaevenstar said:


> ...And about making "another" HP section, at least this section would be mature...



Mature? Are you kidding? _This_ forum? 

Barley


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## Starbrow (Feb 4, 2005)

I also enjoy Michelle West. I believe she has also published some books under the name Michelle Sagara. I enjoyed The Sundered series of 4 books by her.


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## lamariaevenstar (Feb 4, 2005)

hmm..thanks I'll have to check into that 
And yes Barley "mature"...although "maybe" just "maybe" I meant friendly, lol


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## Eledhwen (Feb 4, 2005)

lamariaevenstar said:


> And yes Barley "mature"...although "maybe" just "maybe" I meant friendly, lol


... and I thought you meant like ripe Stilton.  

If anything is going to be done on the 'Harry Potter et al' front, it should be before the Half Blood Prince comes out in July. If anything, I favour the link option, so as to prevent it taking over the board; but this site belongs to The Webmaster, and that level of change is his perogative only. Maybe he hates Harry Potter! I don't know, I haven't asked.


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