# TTF get your head out of your ... (or why even have a forum?)...



## greypilgrim

OK, I've been around since 2002, those were the good days, with activity in different guilds, discussions of politics, religion, world affairs, even racial issues (gasp) were talked about here, plus we had rpg's, the green dragon, people were starting up their own guilds...you name it...TTF was the coolest site! We all here like Tolkien/LoTRs, so we all at least have that one thing in common going on here...we can do whatever.

Why not so much now?

Seems like this site just don' know what to do.


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## Thorondor_

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*

In the "worst case scenario", when all that could possibly be said about Tolkien's work has been debated (which I doubt will ever happen, considering the evolution of culture) this place still would have great value for cherishing these great works of art and helping "beginners" to better undestand Tolkien's heritage. Also, his work presents good tools for understanding many current social issues.


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## Ingwë

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*

First... *The world is changing.... TTF is changing, too. *
Many users have lived this place, the movie days have gone...  We have no guilds but we still have book sections and movie sections  If you want to discuss something you still can post  We have The Halls of Tolkienology... This is still good place, even great. I don't like too big forums (30 000-40 000 members). This place is cool


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## Firawyn

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*

I agree. I've been here since March 03, and I loved the place then, and I love the place now. Change is good and I think now that the 'movie fans' have more or less up and left, it's a little les cluttered here. If to you, this seems like less activity, then tough luck. If you wanna talk about something, post a thread. The mods can only do so much.


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## Barliman Butterbur

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*



greypilgrim said:


> OK, I've been around since 2002, those were the good days, with activity in different guilds, discussions of politics, religion, world affairs, even racial issues (gasp) were talked about here, plus we had rpg's, the green dragon, people were starting up their own guilds...you name it...TTF was the coolest site! We all here like Tolkien/LoTRs, so we all at least have that one thing in common going on here...we can do whatever.
> 
> Why not so much now?
> 
> Seems like this site just don' know what to do.



I totally agree. The place seems to have run aground. I have no solutions.  

Barley


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## Firawyn

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*

guurrrrr Barley, you're no help. 

One cannot complain if one has no way to fix the so called problem.


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## HLGStrider

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*

The best thing to do is an archive search. Whenever I get really bored here and have an hour to blow, I will read old threads. I'll dig up fun ones I remember, put in an interesting search word and look about the forums for every post that used the word "ottoman" for lack of a better example. I'll read the first few threads I posted on the forum (actually, I've been around long enough that most of these threads can no longer be easily accessed).

A lot of old discussion can be added to. A lot of forum funniness still exists to read. 

If not, start a thread on whatever you want. Whenever I got bored I used to start an unusual poll for instance'.

This forum is what you make of it. Don't complain about nobody posting because if you aren't posting yourself, you are only part of the problem.

I've been here since 2001, by the way. The forum has had plenty of dead periods. They are nothing new and as long as people are willing to stick with it, the forum will stay.


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## HLGStrider

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?t=17736


Just to stir you guys up. . .

Have fun with this. . . or else Elgee will attack you with oreos.


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## Alatar

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*

Elgee, well done, you have just caused a wave of people to reread the old post's, Ingwe has already finished your challenge, and i am on my way, but, maybe doing this every month would be good...


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## ingolmo

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*

I don't know what Greypilgrim and Barley are talking about. TTF is a nice place.  
But I agree with one thing. The Green Dragon should still be here. 
And I would be coming here everyday, and sitting in front of the computer for two hours and replying to all the posts in length like a true loremaster, but I've got school and limited computer hours.


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## Wolfshead

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*



greypilgrim said:


> Why not so much now?


I personally put it down to not being allowed to discuss politics and religion. There's too much censorship, in my opinion. I've said this before, and I'll probably say it again, but you need to have a lively off-topic section for people to stick about. You can't discuss Tolkien all the time, well, most people can't. Most people want to discuss other things as well, and if they're unable to, they'll go elsewhere. I did, and I'm sure other people have as well.

I spend most of my online time now at www.thedugout.tv . It's a forum dedicated to one subject (in this case a football game) but it gives its users opportunities to post about other things as well. The off-topic section provokes a lot of arguments, but that's what makes it interesting. Things sometimes get out of hand, but common sense is required when moderating that. So long as certain lines aren't crossed, what's the problem? It's just debate after all.

Admittedly, TD attracts a different sort of people to those who're here, but if you want a lively board, you need to the off-topic stuff. Perhaps that's not what the Powers That Be want here. Perhaps the dedicated few are what's wanted. So for the rest of us, we must venture elsewhere.

One example of what I'm saying is this - the biggest, most talked about news story of the last year is happening just now in London, and all that's here about it is a thread where everyone is wishing everyone else is alright. Nothing wrong with that, but on TD there have been 1,287 replies on the subject. It's a busier forum, granted, but that's the kind of thing you need.


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## Thorondor_

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*

If a significant (and that's the catch) parallelism can be found between events/ideas in real life and in Tolkien's world, then such subjects can always be discussed here.


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## Wolfshead

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*



Thorondor_ said:


> If a significant (and that's the catch) parallelism can be found between events/ideas in real life and in Tolkien's world, then such subjects can always be discussed here.


Of course they can, but that was my point. Everything intelligent here pretty much *has* to be Tolkien-related. That might be alright for some people, but to have a busy forum you need the off-topic too. For some reason it's alright to have a thread about who has the coolest avatar, or who likes playing Zelda, but it's against the rules to discuss Darwin's theory of evolution. The people who can have in depth discussion about Tolkien matters are unlikely to give a damn about who has the best avatar, or a kids computer game. They're probably more concerned about the threat from terrorism, or the state of the economy, for example. But they are prevented from discussing these because an argument might break out.


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## Thorondor_

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*

If it is too tedious to constantly link a current subject (such as terrorism and the likes) to Tolkien's world, people could always go to Project Evil , which I consider as an integral part of TTF - only that it has non-Tolkien issues also. Consider it as a "sub forum" of TTF.


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## Wolfshead

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*

By going to Project Evil they are not here. It is a different forum to this one, despite being linked. I've felt for a long time this board is moderated too strictly and people aren't given enough freedom. 



dapence said:


> They [political religious discussions] simply don't serve the interests and focus of TTF, and frankly, I'm tired of dealing with it, and I don't want to burden the moderators by having them moderate posts and then have to deal with flak from one side or the other for their actions.


It's not that difficult to moderate sensibly. You have a thread on a topic, people discuss it, they'll probably argue, but at least it's more intelligent than most of the rubbish in S&B. Perhaps they'll start insulting each other, so then the Moderator, if he/she feels they've taken it too far, closes that thread. If the member then takes it elsewhere on the board they get banned. End of.

Putting the discussion into another forum just serves to make this board even less active. As I've said before, perhaps Admin just want Tolkien discussed on this board, which is fair enough. It's their board after all, but the solution to the problem Greypilgrim put forward at the beginning of this thread is to be more liberal and allow more to happen. Otherwise you just end up with a select few discussing the same old issues and being nice to each other.


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## Thorondor_

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*



> Otherwise you just end up with a select few discussing the same old issues and being nice to each other.


Fine by me  Anyway, this place is great for all those who get alot of useful information, even if they never register of post.


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## Wolfshead

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*

It just depends what you want out of an internet forum. I hang around on TD because I can discuss anything I want, and don't need to worry about logging into different places that specify in particular aspects of life. I'll admit I'm really not that interested in discussing Tolkien these days, and I only logged in here today because I was interested in seeing how the London bombings were being viewed by a predominantly American board, and was shocked to discover there was next to nothing about it. 

It appears now, though, that rather than the vibrant, large and lively community TTF used it be, it's now a rather small, specific board with not much else going on. And I, for one, think that's a shame.


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## Thorondor_

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*

Concerning the level of the debate here, you can think of TTF as of a book: if enough has been said previoulsy, what remains is to read it 
Besides the intelectual/informational level, TTF is great for Tolkien fans to share feelings. So it serves and will serve its purpose.


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## Wolfshead

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*



Thorondor_ said:


> Concerning the level of the debate here, you can think of TTF as of a book: if enough has been said previoulsy, what remains is to read it


So you're implying TTF is finished as a board with discussion and should just be an archive for reference? I doubt you are, but it could be interpreted that way. You would put an old book away on the shelf and find another to read.


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## Thorondor_

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*

I said "if" . 
And time and again Tolkien's fans re-read his works. In general, art works are apreciated and no one expects them to change in order to keep interest active.


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## Wolfshead

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*



Thorondor_ said:


> And time and again Tolkien's fans re-read his works. In general, art works are apreciated and no one expects them to change in order to keep interest active.


True. But we're going round in circles 

If all that's wanted is to discuss Tolkien's works and look up things when necessary, then the board is indeed fulfilling its function. But if it's a vibrant, busy community that's wanted (as it used to be), then it isn't. The solution to that I've already outlined. At the end of the day, it's up to the Admin, for it is their board. If we don't like the way it's run, well, we can contribute our thoughts and move on.


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## Wraithguard

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*

Most forums are quite DEAD during the summer time. At SHXForum where I was an Admin in a forum of over 5k members, the largest count of online members we had during the summer was 24. It was a forum where I felt at home just like here at TTF and I even used my real age on that forum. I would also like to state that on your topic of arguements that we had similar strifes within SHX as well. It would seem that new members would come to the forum, view the arguements and feel it was too much of a hostile environment to feel like they would be able to feel comfortable about posting so they would leave just shortly after registering. That is the reason we had to completely ban all debating and it is also why SHX has been dead since last Christmas. So to your opinion on the censorship I believe the moderators are doing a great job and not overzealous in their duties. As for the removement of politics from the forum I believe that to be a good choice as well. Many people here at TTF simply do not find the time to keep up with current events, and thus they will drag themselves into arguements that they have no clue as to what they are talking and will probably contradict what they mean.

As for why I am comparing TTF to SHX I am saying that if the webmaster had continued to allow political arguements to continue, new members could get the wrong idea of the forum. As for running out of things to discuss there are plenty of great writers here on TTF and we can always give support and discuss their works as well as help out newcommers to Tolkienology in learning about the works of the greatest author to date. I belive I have rambled on enough for now.

~Rai


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## Thorondor_

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*



> But if it's a vibrant, busy community that's wanted (as it used to be), then it isn't.


Then we (mods included) should find interesting and appealing ways to stimulate creativity in our forum: contests of writing; creating tournaments - online and in real life; creating Tolkien-related art. This could even reffer to re-designing the general lay-out of the forum, what people see aestheticaly and what is presented to them when they check in.
We only need to join efforts.


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## Wolfshead

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*



Wraithguard said:


> It would seem that new members would come to the forum, view the arguements and feel it was too much of a hostile environment to feel like they would be able to feel comfortable about posting so they would leave just shortly after registering.


You have to balance everything. If the place is dead you're not going to get any new members anyway. It's a question of moderation (see what I did there?  ).


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## Wraithguard

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*

Or perhaps advertisement. I just happen to remember that I created a 'spam bot' a few years back for a free online gaming community called Battle.net. I can use it as an advertising device to attempt to get new members. As for sparking interest I do believe TTF could use a more streamlined look. Starcraft.org, Silenthillheaven, and a few other sites have undergone radical changes and have a great new look. Perhaps that may be what TTF needs. Personally I like the layout of Project Evil. Except maybe make it Black and Dark Purple instead of Green or Silver. I'll get to work on some public advertisement (legal this time) and maybe see what I can think of to spark interest.

~Rai


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## Thorondor_

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*

I resent advertisement. TTF popped first when I searched for "Tolkien forum". People will naturally come here, esspecially if interesting stuff is going on.


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## Wolfshead

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*



Wraithguard said:


> As for sparking interest I do believe TTF could use a more streamlined look.


The panel that tells you about the poster should definately be on the left hand side - it takes up far too much space and breaks up the page going from left to right.

But you speak of advertising there. That's not really the point. If the aim of TTF is to have only Tolkien debate then it's doing fine. Greypilgrim was harkening back to the good old days of yore when there was more to do here. There isn't that now because the Admin have chosen to take it away. It's a clash of ideologies, not a lack of interest.


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## Wolfshead

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*



Thorondor_ said:


> I resent advertisement. TTF popped first when I searched for "Tolkien forum". People will naturally come here, esspecially if interesting stuff is going on.


If the place is busier more people are likely to join. I don't know how other Tolkien forums do compared to this one, but if I were to be a potential new member and saw another board with say, 30 users logged on at one time, and saw 5 here, I'd be more inclined to join the other one. The busier a board is the more new members it will gain.


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## Wraithguard

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*

I agree with Wolfshead. While I respect your opinion against advertisement we could use more members. A busy forum is usually considered a successful forum and it would be nice to see a different lineup at the bottom of the page. It is usually the same and it gets old. Along with getting members here we need a way to keep them here. We have a New Members area but we don't have anything to really draw them in and chain them there (ok bad way of putting it). The only thing I see against public advertisement from my side is it will draw a LOT of people from a younger generation but since the surplus of new members I saw in the last month was mostly over the age of 18 I would say that cannot be a bad thing. I chose to advertise on Battle.net because in the channels there is an average of 40 people per channel and it is direct chat so they will see it. If anyone has an ideas about what to do to keep new members I'm sure the admin would love to hear it.


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## Wolfshead

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*



Wraithguard said:


> I agree with Wolfshead. While I respect your opinion against advertisement we could use more members. A busy forum is usually considered a successful forum and it would be nice to see a different lineup at the bottom of the page.


We'd both like to see the forum busier, but without a revamping of how the board operates, advertising would just be a waste of resources. There needs to be something other than just Tolkien discussion to keep new members on board, rather than just the same old lot that have been here for years.


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## Alatar

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*

I found this site searching for information on the sinking of beleriand, having found some here, i joined.
i like the way it is layed out here, tough i have one question, Why does my post count go down! It was atleat 500 a week ago, i even put it in a post, so why is it now 492?


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## Wraithguard

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*

Don't worry about wasting resources on advertisement for now. While I am doing things within the boundries of the Law this time, I am doing it without any cost to myself or to the forum. In this communitiy there are a series of 'Lord of the Rings Clans'. I myself was at one point a Clan Leader. There are even scenarios based on battles from the War of the Ring, The Last Alliance, and even some First Age battles such as the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. The only problem is that LotR Clans have their own channels which are usually off limits to non clan members. As for another problem my bot is very outdated and it will take me weeks to code another. For now I am forced to limit the advertisement to short and sweet but it gets the message out. I can handle getting the word out if you can convince people that we need a new look and operation.

~Rai


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## Wolfshead

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*



Alatar said:


> i like the way it is layed out here, tough i have one question, Why does my post count go down! It was atleat 500 a week ago, i even put it in a post, so why is it now 492?


Because old threads are constantly pruned. I used to have close to 2000 posts, but once old ones get deleted your count goes down. Seems a bit pointless, actually. And they made S&B posts not count either. So it's not a really effective Post Count...


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## Wolfshead

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*

@Wraithguard, I'd speak to the Webmaster before advertising on his behalf if I were you. The board has an image that needs to be kept


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## Wraithguard

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*

Thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat would be a good idea.  However I can at least direct a few Tolkien fans I know to this site. They should soak right into the forum. Don't hit me for saying that! 

However in time I believe the support the 'faithful' have for the forum will keep it alive for a long time. I believe I should shut up now before I overstep my boundry. But you guys are right. It's not a matter of what the admin or webmaster should do it's what we should do to help. This forum is home to us all and we cannot let the admin and webmaster simply slave over it for us to enjoy without at least thanking them.

~Rai


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## Wolfshead

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*



Wraithguard said:


> It's not a matter of what the admin or webmaster should do it's what we should do to help. This forum is home to us all and we cannot let the admin and webmaster simply slave over it for us to enjoy without at least thanking them.


True. They have put a lot of effort into this place over the years, let us not forget that. Doesn't mean the place can't be improved, though


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## Wraithguard

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*

Indeed it doesn't. But we should not get ahead of ourselves. We need to come up with a new design that is more efficient and looks great, present it to the admin, get their opinion and let them make changes as they see fit, and the put the rest of our plan into action... but first we need a plan. That would best be discussed publicly as well in order to get outside opinions and let them know what is in store for the forum itself.


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## Wraithguard

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*

As for something to spark interest we can have divisions of the forum but they are able to merge when it comes to threads and posts. What I mean is, have one side called the Light of Middle-Earth and another called the Darkness of Middle-Earth. I wouldn't mind seeing that myself. As for streamlined design I can come up with one in a matter of weeks. From now on the radical changes we are discussing here should be called *Project Revolution*. Having a name to our plan will make it easier to discuss and cause less confusion.

I wasn't very clear on what I meant. I was thinking more along the lines of skins but with an extra subforum for that side's use only. They could both view the same threads and posts in the regular subfora but could only view threads/posts of their 'allignment' in that one particular subforum. But for now this is only a discussion. This may go beyond that and it may not. Either way I'm quite fond of this little plan we have here.

~Rai


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## HLGStrider

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*



> Elgee, well done, you have just caused a wave of people to reread the old post's, Ingwe has already finished your challenge, and i am on my way, but, maybe doing this every month would be good...


If I decide to do it every month I'll probably start doing it with a theme, otherwise it will get old. Like for Sept "Find the Funniest Thread" month. For October "Find the best Gandalf thread." Etc, etc, etc.

Technical ideas are probably somewhat limited by the format, but any serious suggestions on formating should probably be address in a pm to WM, Ithy, or Beorn, someone who can make those changes. 

I really don't want to see this change into a discussion on whether we should have politics and religion or not. I've expressed my opinion on it before and lost, but the subject seems to tear the forum apart from time to time and there are enough other threads addressing it, so let's leave that out as a "Non-Option."

That said, Politics and Religion are NOT the only serious non-Tolkien debates that can happen. History, some philosophy, literature, some movie discussions, discussions of life. . .those can all still happen and have happened in the past. If you really have a great question on Dostoevsky, start a thread on it in Stuff and Bother. I would LOVE to see some deep discussions brought into this forum on things other than Tolkien. How many of us only read Tolkien? 

People have to be willing to post, to explore every option, every aspect of a thread or idea.


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## Barliman Butterbur

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*



Firawyn said:


> guurrrrr Barley, you're no help.
> 
> One cannot complain if one has no way to fix the so called problem.



The squeaky wheel gets the grease, m'dear — it doesn't offer a solution, it calls for one!  But since you insist: *bring back the religion/politics threads and all the other non-Tolkien threads LIKE VIRTUALLY ALL THE REST OF THE TOLKIEN SITES ONLINE HAVE.* Do that and you'll gain more new members and bring some of the "deserters" back. And if that isn't enough: _give post count credit to every post no matter the subject. And if threads are mod-deleted the post count shouldn't go down, it should remain the same. _The poster has no control of what The Powers That Be do, and shouldn't be penalized.

Barley


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## Firawyn

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*



> If I decide to do it every month I'll probably start doing it with a theme, otherwise it will get old. Like for Sept "Find the Funniest Thread" month. For October "Find the best Gandalf thread." Etc, etc, etc.




Ohhhh!! I like that idea. I'll get members more involved in surfing old threads!!  




> The squeaky wheel gets the grease, m'dear — it doesn't offer a solution, it calls for one! But since you insist: bring back the religion/politics threads and all the other non-Tolkien threads LIKE VIRTUALLY ALL THE REST OF THE TOLKIEN SITES ONLINE HAVE. Do that and you'll gain more new members and bring some of the "deserters" back. And if that isn't enough: give post count credit to every post no matter the subject. And if threads are mod-deleted the post count shouldn't go down, it should remain the same. The poster has no control of what The Powers That Be do, and shouldn't be penalized.



Barley I'm touched. You responded to something I said without argueing with me! Yay!  Now I will take this amazing moment a little further. I agree. I think that the religious and political topics should be allowed. If Tolkien could discuss these things, why shouldn't we?  Comon' mods, bring back politics and religion! *grin*


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## Wraithguard

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*

Elgee this should and hopefully will not become a political or religious discussion and I would appreciate it if others would not involve the creation of Project Evil or the removal of such topics from TTF itself. I am merely expressing my thoughts on how to improve the forum for its future use. I led a project like this at SDF 2 years ago and it turned out ok. I merely want to see TTF be as bustling and successful as any other Tolkien forum and perhaps even better than them. I'm also saying that with the greater advances with software there needs to be changes made around the forum to make it easier for the confused and young members to navigate the forum. I'm not trying to take all these matters into my own hands nor am I trying to delegate them to others. I am merely making suggestions and coming up with a plan to improve the forum that may never even see the light of day, outside this thread.

As I was saying in an earlier thread there are many great writers (glaring at Elgee and Ara) and a few decent writers such as myself, that can keep the forum alive and allow discussion of them. I am well aware there is a place for that already but it would seem that it is ill-used. We need to encourage more people to try their hand at writing. But for now I will keep my peace. It seems I'm already starting to cross the line.

~Rai


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## Thorondor_

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*

I join the group of the users who make a plea that moderators re-take into consideration opening to discussion the religion and politics threads.


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## Wraithguard

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*

Does anybody even listen to me? Just because my avatar is of a girl doesn't make me any less of a man! Please don't start argueing over the admin and webmaster's choices please. If we start argueing their choice this thread will be closed or deleted and this discussion is offering me too much entertainment for that. Thank you for NOT continueing this.

~Rai

Let me go ahead and apologize for that joke. Never mistake wisdom for maturity.


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## Beorn

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*

All of the Tolkien world has slowed down. Those of us here who got into during or after the movies, are now seeing it slow. Granted, it's significantly slower than before the movies (People have had enough of the movies. Girls still obsess over Elijah Wood, and many are unwilling to associate with that alone).

BUT, we're still going at a better pace than some forums! Have any of you ever been to TABA? Thereandbackagain.net's Bulletin Board gets only 5 or 10 posts a day. Many of their forums haven't had posts since 2004. I'm not picking on them, I'm just showing you what other forums are like.

Entmoot has a pace similar to ours.

Tolkien Online, is going well, but they've always had a gigantic forum. However, it is less dedicated to Tolkien than us.

The Fantasy Forum barely even mentions Tolkien anymore, when it used to be _LOTROnline_.

The Tolkien world is slow. The interest in it is at a low, but it'll probably bounce back (but not nearly to the level it was at for the movies) in a few months.

I don't have time to discuss everything mentioned above (I'm hungry), but I'll add a few things quickly:

I don't think we're looking for advertising other than word-of-mouth.
I like Elgee's idea to bring up old threads.
What about starting chapter reviews again?
Reviews for related books?


----------



## Wraithguard

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*

Don't read too deeply it's just me rambling on about random topics, and others giving their response. After thinking about it advertising would be far too dangerous for the forum itself and the reputation it holds. I would still like a new look but that is about it. We could have people host activites and special events from time to time and we can always criticize (in a good way) other peoples work, beit related or not.

I believe now that there is no way that we alone can bring many faithful users to TTF as it would take something as revolutionary as a Silmarillion movie to do that. Which I wouldn't mind seeing so long as PJ isn't involved in any way. The age of Tolkien has come crashing down and I fear it will never again come before us but that will not stop us from honoring him and keeping his work alive. I doubt that within our lifetimes we will ever discuss all there is about Tolkiens work and we probably never will. I hope I haven't gone to far through my posts and thank you for letting my have my fun.

~Rai


----------



## Wolfshead

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*



Barliman Butterbur said:


> The squeaky wheel gets the grease, m'dear — it doesn't offer a solution, it calls for one!  But since you insist: *bring back the religion/politics threads and all the other non-Tolkien threads LIKE VIRTUALLY ALL THE REST OF THE TOLKIEN SITES ONLINE HAVE.* Do that and you'll gain more new members and bring some of the "deserters" back. And if that isn't enough: _give post count credit to every post no matter the subject. And if threads are mod-deleted the post count shouldn't go down, it should remain the same. _The poster has no control of what The Powers That Be do, and shouldn't be penalized.


Hear hear. I agree entirely on every point 



Beorn said:


> Tolkien Online, is going well, but they've always had a gigantic forum. However, it is less dedicated to Tolkien than us.


Diversifiction, Beorn. If you have more off-topic stuff then there will be an increase in Tolkien related discussion also. It's the multiplier effect - the more users you have, the quicker the place grows. Granted, not every member will be what you're looking for, but there will be more of the sort you do want.



Wraithguard said:


> Does anybody even listen to me? Just because my avatar is of a girl doesn't make me any less of a man! Please don't start argueing over the admin and webmaster's choices please.


But the point of the thread is to discuss why the forum is not as lively as it once was, and how we can get it back to the good old days. Therefore, our points are just as valid as yours.

And a brief aside, I'd recommend the multi-quote function that vBulletin allows, Beorn - makes responding to multiple posts at once much easier


----------



## Wolfshead

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*



Wraithguard said:


> The age of Tolkien has come crashing down and I fear it will never again come before us but that will not stop us from honoring him and keeping his work alive.


Bit melodramatic, that, ain't it? Granted, LOTR isn't as popular as it was during the movie years, but recall the book was around for 50 years before that and was still going strong before all the hype surrounding the films. I hardly think Tolkien's work faces any danger of extinction any time soon.


----------



## Alatar

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*

Not with the Internet, now if there is only 1000 tolkien fans in the world( example), most will be able to talk to eachother, even if you do not know anyone else who likes tolkien.


----------



## Wraithguard

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*

I wasn't saying it was going to extinction I was saying that it has become weaker. I just wanted to be a bit more dramatic with it. There are hundreds of thousands of Tolkien fans in the world but most of them just don't know about TTF. That is why I first suggested advertisement until I began to realize that the entire reason younger people usually like Tolkien was because of PJ's krap thus since the movie age has ended and the age of Tolkien Fans once more graces the world there are going to be slow times and we must deal with them. I believe the best course of action to assist the forum now is inaction. Perhaps in doing nothing we will succeed where those who try everything fail.

~Rai


----------



## Gothmog

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*



Wolfshead said:


> Diversifiction, Beorn. If you have more off-topic stuff then there will be an increase in Tolkien related discussion also. It's the multiplier effect - the more users you have, the quicker the place grows. Granted, not every member will be what you're looking for, but there will be more of the sort you do want.


Diversification is a double headed axe, it can cut both ways and destroy what you hope to save.



Wolfshead said:


> But the point of the thread is to discuss why the forum is not as lively as it once was, [b}and how we can get it back to the good old days.[/B] Therefore, our points are just as valid as yours.


Perhaps the mistake is in looking backwards. Maybe a better thing is to look forwards to the "Good New Days". 

So, in looking forward all suggestions are welcome and will be considered


----------



## Wraithguard

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*

Once again my words of folly are drowned out by the wise. Thus bringing me back to my first thoughts of thinking of its future. That is not what the thread was started for but that is what it has become and what we should make of it. After all I did say that this is forum is all our homes and if we cannot handle this responsibly then the mods are going to have a tougher job which will mean more things like Project Evil will happen. In other words do not blame the admin and webmaster for the changes blame ourselves.

~Rai


----------



## Thorondor_

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*



> So, in looking forward all suggestions are welcome and will be considered


What are the dangers of discussing politics and religion? Flamming? If it's only that, I think it can be avoided, if it's ever the case, by increased moderator activity. And if there aren't enough mods, I am sure there are plenty of seasoned members who would be glad to help.


----------



## Wraithguard

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*

Like so many you hear but you do not listen! We cannot put all the work on the mods we have to take some responsibility ourselves. We are the ones who traffic this forum and if we are not mature enough to have civilized conversations without violating something then we should not be on this forum. It is that simple. We rely far too much on moderators, administration, and the webmaster to clean up our messes while we should just not create the mess in the first place.

~Rai


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## Wolfshead

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*



Gothmog said:


> Diversification is a double headed axe, it can cut both ways and destroy what you hope to save.


Indeed it could. Any changes would need to be carefully considered with the pros and cons properly weighed up beforehand.


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## Thorondor_

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*



> Like so many you hear but you do not listen


Wraithguard, if you care to read my post, I said if it's ever the case.


----------



## Wolfshead

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*



Wraithguard said:


> We rely far too much on moderators, administration, and the webmaster to clean up our messes while we should just not create the mess in the first place.


I'm not denying people need to responsible, but sensible moderation can go a long way to solving problems. Moderators are there to control the forum. If something gets out of hand they are there to sort it out. I think sometimes the moderation here is too conservative, and not liberal enough.


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## Wraithguard

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*

@Thor

I did not notice that and I apologize

@Wolfshead

While I admit there are too few moderators for a forum this size, they do all they can. Perhaps if we had more mods there would be better monitoring and control but for now they are doing things to the best of their abilities. From what I am seeing they have a moderator for every 500 members on the forum. That is an insane amount of work to put on a person. On SDT we had to resort to a mod for every 100 but I would say 1 per every 250 would work here. I have gone almost entire days without seeing a moderator and that is not because they are shirking their duty it is because they cannot always be here to monitor. That is why we need more mods because then there can always be at least 1 mod on at all times.

~Rai


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## Barliman Butterbur

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*



Wraithguard said:


> Elgee this should and hopefully will not become a political or religious discussion and I would appreciate it if others would not involve the creation of Project Evil or the removal of such topics from TTF itself.



You (and others) might appreciate it, but I (and others) did not and DO not appreciate (although properly grateful) starting up Project Evil as much as we would have appreciated it to have simply left things alone. PE is an OK substitute, but it's a pain going over there to discuss things that once were discussed here (to say nothing of the inferior setup of their browser) and without the non-TTF idiots that PE seems to have attracted. I consider this site my "home," and PE is degenerating already. I have never understood the objections to having controversial subjects discussed on this site when so many other Tolkien sites include them with great success. As Beorn said, things have slowed down Tolkienwise, and when things slow down, there were always the non-Tolkien subjects to discuss — that is, until *The Ban.*

You can count on me to bring up the topic of restoring controversial subject matter to TTF every time I think it has a chance of serious reconsideration.

Barley


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## Thorondor_

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*



> That is why we need more mods because then there can always be at least 1 mod on at all times.


I think your past experiences with "warring" forums had too much of an influence on you. There are at least two threads where you complain about users going over line, about unrest. As I have already said, you are quite exagerating, and doing no good. Imo, the mods are doing a good job and will do, because TTF is a nice community itself.


----------



## Alatar

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*

No way is there a mod for every 500!
I think there are only a few hunderd ACTIVE users here.
Most are ethier one posters, or are old.


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## Wraithguard

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*

That was merely an estimate based on the number of moderators and the number of total members. I have already said the mods are doing their jobs and I am also saying that I am neutral on the removal of 'volatile subjects' unlike how I have let on. I believe removing it was a good way of making the mod's lives easier however without it there is little need for the mods. Also I now remember a conversation I had with a member the other day. I was contacted by aimer via AIM and I asked him why he hadn't been on the forum. He responed, "Boring, besides I don't have the movies or the books and there is nothing else to do." Figure out how this relates.

~Rai


----------



## HLGStrider

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*



> As I was saying in an earlier thread there are many great writers (glaring at Elgee and Ara) and a few decent writers such as myself, that can keep the forum alive and allow discussion of them.



Actually, if you are at all interested in searching the Prancing Pony you will find a ton of good discussions on all aspects of writing as well as people posting some pretty good work asking for input.



> What about starting chapter reviews again?
> Reviews for related books?


 
I really have never taken any interest in chapter reviews, but reviews for related books is an interesting idea.

I actually think activity is going up. I used to be getting about ten responses to subscribed threads per day, and I am now getting up to 25. That's pretty good.


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## Tar-Elendil13

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*

I came here after religion and politics were banned, and maybe I don't know what I'm missing, but most people, from my experience, cannot keep a level head when discussing politics and religion. How does"I don't [bleep] care you're just a [bleep] idiot for supporting 'so and so' so get [bleep] lost." contribute to the intelligence and mature discussion type atmosphere of the forum? I am sure some will agree that this type of thing would and has happened. You cannot call that type of statement "discussion" so letting politics and religion be open subjects on TTF will just cause unecessary strife and degradation with little or no benefits of added discussion. Go to Project Evil. I don't see how that is bad.

TE13


----------



## HLGStrider

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*

I think it is time for me to give my final word on the Politics and Religion issue, as a mod now, as well as being a long time member.


I wanted Political and Religious discussions. I was behind them to the very end. I advocated them. I participated in them. I was pretty dang good at them, and I was able to keep my head and not insult people so I know it can be done. I have watched them come and go around this forum, and if you search for HLGStrider+Politics, you can find my opinions and various statements in SUPPORT of these guilds. 

HOWEVER! 

I love this forum three hundred times more than I love discussing and debating politics and religion. I don't know if having politics and religion will tear this board apart, and that isn't the issue of this post, but I know WM has spoken and at least for now WE WON'T HAVE THEM. 

I am NOT going to let the arguement of whether or not we will have them tear the forum apart. As I see it the debate on whether we should allow these topics is more devisive than the debates themselves ever were. 

So we (I) didn't get our (my) way! There is more to the forum than politics and religion. There always was and there always will be. So stop! 

Maybe someday we can try again. I don't think that time will be for awhile, and maybe it will be never, but for now whining isn't going to do us any good. 

Let's drop it and find the other reasons we joined this forum. Let's settle down, wait it out, and go on with our lives. 

Final Elgee say!


----------



## David Pence

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*

I've had enough of this whining about the ban on politics and religion.

You want a parallel to The Bible? I banned two topics, out of thousands (if not more) that can be discussed at will here. But, just like God's ban on eating the fruit from just one tree in Eden, the Serpent twisted that by subtly asking if it was true you couldn't eat the fruit from _every_ tree.

You members who can't stand this place because you can't discuss _every_ topic you wish, well, you may be happier elsewhere. I'm not lifting the ban. If that means we only have one member visiting the site, then, so be it.


----------



## Firawyn

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*



> What are the dangers of discussing politics and religion? Flamming? If it's only that, I think it can be avoided, if it's ever the case, by increased moderator activity. And if there aren't enough mods, I am sure there are plenty of seasoned members who would be glad to help.



I agree with tihs statement!  




> I came here after religion and politics were banned, and maybe I don't know what I'm missing, but most people, from my experience, cannot keep a level head when discussing politics and religion. How does"I don't [bleep] care you're just a [bleep] idiot for supporting 'so and so' so get [bleep] lost." contribute to the intelligence and mature discussion type atmosphere of the forum? I am sure some will agree that this type of thing would and has happened. You cannot call that type of statement "discussion" so letting politics and religion be open subjects on TTF will just cause unecessary strife and degradation with little or no benefits of added discussion. Go to Project Evil. I don't see how that is bad.




Tar, I came to this board when there was still political and religious discussions, though I did not get involved until soon before it was banned. Gurrr, I was just getting good at it. On one hand, I wish they'd bring it back, but you've brought up an interesting point.

More people will join TTF, those who were not here for the R&P days, and like you, that will not 'miss it'. I think that once the OLD PEOPLE get over not being able to have 'aggressive discusions' we'll all be fine.

On the other hand, keeping a forum so on topic can make it dull.

On the other hand, this _is_ *The Tolkien Forum*. Set aside for Tolkein, not world news.


As you can see, I really can agree with both sides. There are pros and cons, and we just have to wait to see whch ends up being the heavier weight.


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## Firawyn

> You members who can't stand this place because you can't discuss every topic you wish, well, you may be happier elsewhere. I'm not lifting the ban. If that means we only have one member visiting the site, then, so be it.



Well said David. You are right, as usual.


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## Thorondor_

I like TTF as it is, even now. It is a great community (as far as I am concerned) and it has the potential to become even greater. However, considering what Gothmog said:



> So, in looking forward all suggestions are welcome and will be considered


 
I feel compeled to ask this question again:


> What are the dangers of discussing politics and religion?


 
And I hope that at least Gothmog will reply . Thanks.


----------



## Ingwë

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*



dapence said:


> You members who can't stand this place because you can't discuss _every_ topic you wish, well, you may be happier elsewhere. I'm not lifting the ban. If that means we only have one member visiting the site, then, so be it.


Yes, WM, I agree. This is still *The Tolkien Forum *and *we must discuss the Works of J. R. R. Tolkien! *There are other (and many) off-topic forums. TTF is a great community (look at Mike's thread about the attacks in London). I don't know whether there is another forum that takes care or not, but this is great place. 
And it's good that we don't have thousand active members. I talked to Mike about the users... the movie days are gone but that's good. *'We don't have Jacksonists but Tolkienologists'. *Itsn't that good?


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## Arthur_Vandelay

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*



dapence said:


> You members who can't stand this place because you can't discuss _every_ topic you wish, well, you may be happier elsewhere. I'm not lifting the ban. If that means we only have one member visiting the site, then, so be it.



Or . . . come to Project Evil : the Forsaken Inn you have when you don't have a Forsaken Inn.


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## Wolfshead

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*



dapence said:


> You members who can't stand this place because you can't discuss _every_ topic you wish, well, you may be happier elsewhere. I'm not lifting the ban. If that means we only have one member visiting the site, then, so be it.


That's a shame, that is. It looks as if TTF isn't going to fulfill it's potential after all. With a bit of effort the forum could have returned to the great place it used to be. But it seems those in power are perfectly content to let the place plod along as it is, slowly slipping into obscurity much like other online Tolkien communities.

I'm genuinely dissapointed - I've put a lot of time in on this board in the last 3 years, but it looks as if that time might actually be at an end now. Other members (and potential members) will be discouraged by the lack of off-topic discussion, simple as that.


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## Ingwë

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*



Wolfshead said:


> Other members (and potential members) will be discouraged by the lack of off-topic discussion, simple as that.


 We still have *Stuff and Bother* for off-topic discussions and we have *'Project Evil'* - our brother site. We have enough off-topic discussions


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## Thorondor_

> I banned two topics, out of thousands (if not more) that can be discussed at will here


I think it is in the interest of us all to know when are the following topics subject to banning:

- art: any sort of religious art; any art related to activism;
- sociology: the impact of religion and politics on social phenomena and ideas; activism concerning any part of social, cultural, economical, (etc) life;
- military history: the impact of the political ideology on how wars were fought;
- entertainment: relation between pc games, music, literature and political interests
- economy: remuneration, financing, credit, mortages, production, hiring - and their relation with politics.
- *history*: what sort of political and religious events are not "historical" enough (or too "political" or too "religious") to be discussed here?

When do such non-"political" and non-"religious" subjects stop to be accepted? By what standard is such a delimitation done between politics and religion and the rest of the subjects?


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## Wolfshead

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*



Ingwë said:


> we have *'Project Evil'* - our brother site.


That goes hand in hand with this, though



dapence said:


> You members who can't stand this place because you can't discuss every topic you wish, well, you may be happier elsewhere. I'm not lifting the ban. If that means we only have one member visiting the site, then, so be it.


Project Evil is a completely different forum. People will go over there, perhaps enjoy it more than here, and hey presto, that's another member gone. But if it's all in the same forum at least people are here, and are therefore more likely to post about Tolkien than they would be if they were at another forum.


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## Barliman Butterbur

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*



dapence said:


> You members who can't stand this place because you can't discuss _every_ topic you wish, well, you may be happier elsewhere. I'm not lifting the ban. If that means we only have one member visiting the site, then, so be it.



_Ja wohl, mein Herr!_ 

Why is it you strike me as a right-wing type who can't abide other views on your site? You may very well end up with just one member if you insist on your hardheadedness and wielding of absolute power. Certainly as of now you have one member _less._ Goodbye all, it was great for _most_ of the ride. I'll be available for a time at [email protected].

Barley


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## Wraithguard

I support the admins descision even though I believe it to have a few negative affects. I cannot understand why such a pointless squabble over politics and religion in TTF will cause people to abandon this place. There are still hundreds of thousands of Tolkien fans in the world, they simply aren't aware of this site. While I still urge the admin for a more sleek and streamlined look I will not act on my own accord nor step out of my place. I will not be leaving for a good long time.


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## Confusticated

I'm beginning to feel guilty, so I have to "confess".

I hadn't mentioned it before now simply because it didn't seem relevent to, but now that I have guilt I feel I must:

When Alcuin ranted in the Forsaken Inn about a Tolkien forum having such nasty topics, I was unable to resist an urge, built mostly on past fires (which were directed against the fact that both politics and religion were each getting their own sections "Guild of Politics" & "Guild of Religion" on the main page far more so than the fact of the existance of such topics at this site were they to be mixed in with all other off topic instead of getting special treatment and attention on the main page), along with some past anger over the way this was all handled, what with the banning and reallowing and rebanning and so on... and also out of anger that a contributer to the JRRT discussions was going to be lost over all that Right-wing versus neo-liberal BS, that I snapped and i reported Alcuin's post (not to bust him, but simply as the means of sending a message which would reach all mods, and only mods... didn't want to make it a public arguement) saying something to this effect:

Well looks like a member is lost and more trouble is coming of these topics. I wonder if they will be banned again only to be unbanned short time later. 

-----
Therefore I feel that even though a mod insisted elsewhere that there is more to the story of how this latest banning came about than I know, I am at least in part a contributer to the leadership rethinking the way things were going, which ultimately resulted in the decision to ban the topics from TTF.



So we lost a valued member over the topics being allowed, and we are losing valued members over the topics being banned. I have to say that the if you don't like it don't read it approach seems the most fair, and were this anything in life other than a forum, I mean if it were real world politics my view would be just that, if you don't like what others are doing then don't concern yourself with it. Though I personally like TTF better without these topics (I simply don't like to learn that my fellow poster thinks some other person is going to hell for not being a Christian... random example, though I couldn't care less if this poster thinks my favorite character Bilbo Baggins is a fool), this is not the same as saying I am in favour of its outright outlawing. If laws were made on this basis everything would be illegal. I get upset in connection with some religious views and take it on a very personal level, but not everybody does, so why should they lose out on the chance to argue over sins like premarital sex?

I guess I need redeption, I wanted the banning, but I thought that by most (not all) reasoning put forward in favour of it, was unfair and should not be. At the same time I don't seek to argue with the decision, as I can well understand and appreciate the desire and effort taken to keep this open community focused on JRRT related topics, even by something as drastic as outlawing something that only a few people view as a potential threat. I used to fear the day would come when folks with no interest in JRRT would be joining up for Politics and such, and I don't think its a too far-fetched scenario. That reason alone is the best I know of for banning topics (its not something uninterested members could just look past and not be effected by), and I find it perfectly reasonable (Especially during the eras when those topics are getting far more action than the JRRT ones are - honestly, does it not have the potential to take over a site?).

There just didn't seem to be any solution to the is difficult decision put forward that was better than Webmaster's, unless someone was afraid to speak up?

Well, I hope whoever leaves will later decide to still visit, like people have pointed out there are still countless off topic discussions that are allowed in addition to the on topic. 

I think fires would have burned for some time regardless which way the decision went. I know I can't think of anything to make all people happy, though PE seemed fairly close.


----------



## Jesse

*sigh*

I just wish TTF could go back to the good o'le days. Back when we were active.


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## Thorondor_

Because TTF was allowed then to be a lively community. Now, the admins expect people to behave in a civilised way at Project Evil when talking about politics and religion, but somehow this is impossible at TTF. So far, it doesn't make sense.


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## Wolfshead

Jesse said:


> I just wish TTF could go back to the good o'le days. Back when we were active.


Ways to achieve this have been suggested, but have been flatly rejected. Sorry


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## Jesse

I know. All I can do is dream....


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## Wraithguard

Project Evil is a happy community. It just isn't getting word out of its existence. Perhaps if it appeared on search engines like Google or Lycos (which I checked, it doesn't) it would be a more lively place, but for now 3 members on at once will have to do.


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## Tar-Elendil13

I say again, I am in favor of leaving things as is. I have been to web forums that discuss such things, and all I see is flaming rather than level-headed discussion. While I am in favor of more popular sovereignty and less admin power, I feel that in this case it is the mods' and admins' job to regulate this forum so they should decide what is to be banned and what isn't. It's not like the rest of us are moderating this forum, isn't it? So how could we possibly know what it is like to mod volatile topic discussions? (I use the term discussion very loosely, for, as I said before, flaming is not discussion.) Also, I believe it is very sad that people are leaving simply because of banned topics. This seems like whoever leaves came to discuss politics and religion, not Tolkien. As a member of this site, I think people should stick with this site and deal with undesirable times. It's called *loyalty*. I think you might need a word of encouragement, dapence, so just know that I agree with what you're doing and I am behind you all the way. That may not be encouragement to you, but I mean it that way.
TE13
P.S. People lead better when others are behind them.


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## Wraithguard

Tar-Elendil13 said:


> So how could we possibly know what it is like to mod volatile topic discussions?


I think that I'm an exception to that.


Tar-Elendil13 said:


> People lead better when others are behind them.


That is what I've been saying from the beginning. I love Project Evil to no end and am contributing quite a bit to it. I also love TTF but am not as contributive considering there are more than 11 members here. I appreciate how Mr. Pence is more 'hands on' with Project Evil and I believe that he is doing an excellent job. For those of you who believe these changes are too extreme have either never been a moderator/administrator or ever been in a forum where things were allowed to get out of hand.

~Rai


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## David Pence

Well, that's too bad, Butterbur.

If you had actually read what I posted instead of making assumptions, you'd know why I banned these topics. This thread is proof enough that it was a good decision. We can't even discuss banning these topics without members leaving in a huff.

As to there not being an outlet for off-topic discussions, there were at least two fora for just that, and now that I've restored the other Inn's as well, there's plenty of space for off-topic stuff and bother. The only topics that can't be discussed, unless it directly relates to Tolkien's works, are politics and religion.

Speaking of stuff and bother, let's see if we can move the contents of 'Stuff and Bother' into one or more of the Inns.

As to rules governing off-topic posts, this has been covered before, but to summarize, I don't want to clutter the site with hundreds of threads dedicated to more or less chatter. To ensure that, I want off-topic threads to have a relatively short life span. I guess an exception to this rule would be threads dedicated to short stories, poetry, and similar artistic endeavors.

We can work out a more firm set of guidelines for off-topic material on TTF if necessary, but remember, the primary, actually, nearly singular purpose for this site is the discussion and deliberation of the literary works of J.R.R. Tolkien. Anything else is secondary, and will be treated as such.

Well, that's enough rambling for me today. Let's see if we can focus all this angst and energy into dividing up the Inns into specific areas of Interest, say, 'The Forsaken Inn' could be about travels and discovery. Most of 'Stuff and Bother' could probably be moved into 'The Green Dragon.' The Ivy Bush could be used for discussing what's going on in you're home town.

Those are all just suggestions. I'm sure you all can figure out how best to make use of these fora.


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## Ingwë

Well, Webmaster, we have three (new) off-topic inns. Why don't we make specific inns for movies, music. I mean we can use these inns  We have *The Prancing Pony* - we may discuss Literature and poetry there (like now). And we may talk about music in the *The Green Dragon* and about movies in the other inn  These thread may be moved from Stuff and Bother and we will have inns for specific threads. It will be easies to find a thread  
What do you think?


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## HLGStrider

We'd want to save a thread for "life in general." You know, venting about real life threads, and also anything that doesn't fit in the other sections.


Or will stuff and bother remain seperate for these functions?


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## Thorondor_

> We can work out a more firm set of guidelines for off-topic material on TTF if necessary, but remember, the primary, actually, nearly singular purpose for this site is the discussion and deliberation of the literary works of J.R.R. Tolkien


In my opinion, holding the ban is against reason, because we can't discuss even Tolkien subjects without being hindered. Just the other day Elgee said that she and scotsboyuk were forbidden from continuing a discussion on good and evil in Tolkien's world, because it became "too religious". What if someone makes an essay about the resemblance between a M-E and a real life political figure (and such essays have been created!)? Will discussions on the essay be halted when they somehow become "too political"? How can we have even a Tolkien-only forum, if we are allowed to express our views on Tolkien only to a certain degree? We must recognize that, by the very nature of human knowledge, this ban is not only hindering a lively community, but also normal discussions on Tolkien's work, a work which embeds (at least) religion to a very significant degree. I hope I won't see very soon the shocking: "if you don't like it, leave". If we want to hold the ban, the least we could do is to be sincere and change the name of the forum - as the rules of this forum surely *don't* observe Tolkien's perspective on the world - but an arbirtrary perspective, enforced with impunity, against all the good intentions of the users of this forum. 
I am glad that, in all the other matters, there is constructive dialogue between users and admins, I hope it will continue to grow to an even more significant level.


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## Confusticated

dapence said:


> The only topics that can't be discussed, unless it directly relates to Tolkien's works, are politics and religion.



Which thread did this happen in Thorondor? I would just like to see if it was still related to JRRT. If so, it should have continued.


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## Wraithguard

Thorondor_ said:


> In my opinion, holding the ban is against reason, because we can't discuss even Tolkien subjects without being hindered.


Against reason? We aren't hindered in any way by discussion direct relation of politics and/or religion and Tolkiens work.



The Webmaster said:


> unless it directly relates to Tolkien's works


 
I doubt he would lie on a topic like this or on any topic at that matter.



Thorondor_(again) said:


> If we want to hold the ban, the least we could do is to be sincere and change the name of the forum - as the rules of this forum surely *don't* observe Tolkien's perspective on the world.


 
What are you saying?


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## HLGStrider

What happened was the discussion which started on the Sil's use of evil/free will/etc became very sweeping and turned into a real life philosophy debate. 

We started talking about philosophy as pretained to Tolkien, but it became a huge discussion that was more about logic in philosophy than Tolkien and philosophy. 

I can't remember the thread title. It was something involving Melkor and Free Will and it was in the Silmarillion section.


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## Thorondor_

> _
> 
> 
> 
> If we want to hold the ban, the least we could do is to be sincere and change the name of the forum - as the rules of this forum surely *don't* observe Tolkien's perspective on the world.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> _
> What are you saying?


This ban is absurd. Tolkien's view of the world, which is also reflected in his works, doesn't exclude religion - quite the contrary could be argued. So the fact that this forum excludes religion as a topic per se doesn't reflect Tolkien's values or perspectives. If we name this site as "Tolkien forum" then we should let the values and perspectives that he preaches to be discussed to whatever details members want and to let members use the instruments of religion (at least) to interpret also the real world - as his work is not useless, but can make us find "the splintered light" around us, not only in myths. We are blocking the very path that Tolkien wants us to find, the path to the light. This forum should strive to cherish Tolkien's legacy, and not to narrow it to literary works and thus make it barren. That's my personal opinion, however.


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## Wolfshead

Thorondor_ said:


> as the rules of this forum surely don't observe Tolkien's perspective on the world


You make a very good point, Thorondor. Tolkien was writing at a time when the Nazi's were in control of Germany and were restricting free-speech and independent thought. I'm not sure he would be too pleased seeing something similar happening in this day and age, albeit for on a lesser scale and for different reasons 



Thorondor_ said:


> I hope I won't see very soon the shocking: "if you don't like it, leave".


 I have a suspicious feeling we might, and indeed, already have.


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## Beorn

Thorondor_, I think you're confused about exactly what is banned.

I think WM's original post on the topic was a bit misleading: if it's relating to Tolkien and it's religious, it can still be discussed (i.e. comparing Gandalf to Jesus). If it's related to Tolkien and it has to do with politics (Good vs. Evil as Allies vs. Axis), it can still be discussed. That is my interpretation of the ban, but I still need to discuss it with WM. IMO, the ban is on political and religious topics that have nothing to do with Tolkien. Of course, there's a point where a thread has shifted to entirely a religious or political discussion. That point will be decided by a moderator.


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## Thorondor_

> Of course, there's a point where a thread has shifted to entirely a religious or political discussion.


How should I phrase it... we are bound by a silk leash even when discussing Tolkien subjects. Why should I be afraid of moderator intervention when I talk to Elgee about good and evil? Why do I have to mention Eru and Men instead of God and humans, so that I can have a normal conversation? I want to be free to explore subjects to whatever depth. Tolkien's work is a projection of this world and it contains alot of religious aspects. The Damocle's sword above us isn't inducive to make full use of Tolkien's legacy - quite the contrary.

There are plenty of moderators and if there arent, there sure are many seasoned users who would help.The ban should be _general_, against _any _flaming. Unless we are against religion _per se_, I make a plea that at least one thread on religion is allowed, for at least a limited period of time, under whatever strict moderator surveillance.


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## Wraithguard

Is it so difficult to just click the link (even though it is well hidden now) to Project Evil? I believe that Project Evil has the capability to hold all of our political and religions opinions while also holding those of any who would come our way. What do you have against this whole plan? I see it as an oppurtunity and everyone else sees it as a curse.


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## Firawyn

I agree. All parties win with this....speaking of, this topic should be brought over to Project Evil...


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## Wolfshead

Wraithguard said:


> Is it so difficult to just click the link (even though it is well hidden now) to Project Evil? I believe that Project Evil has the capability to hold all of our political and religions opinions while also holding those of any who would come our way. What do you have against this whole plan? I see it as an oppurtunity and everyone else sees it as a curse.


He doesn't just speak of off-topic discussion, though. He also means discussing Tolkien related matters, and how they can be closed when they become too relevant to the real world. Do you propose that when that happens the thread is moved over to Project Evil?


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## Thorondor_

I still believe that we could have a strictly moderated, time limited talk on religion here. I don't think moderator attention is the issue, only their willingness. For what I am concerned, I would moderate those threads (with all the responsibilities and consequences considered), even if that means that I won't participate in most of them.


> Is it so difficult to just click the link (even though it is well hidden now) to Project Evil?


P.E. is a different community _altogether_; (not to mention it is waay smaller). A viable solution would be to integrate P.E. into TTF, so that when you log in to TTF, you are also logged in P.E.; and when you post to P.E., those posts should appear on the "new posts" here.


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## Wraithguard

Thorondor_ said:


> P.E. is a different community _altogether_; (not to mention it is waay smaller). A viable solution would be to integrate P.E. into TTF, so that when you log in to TTF, you are also logged in P.E.; and when you post to P.E., those posts should appear on the "new posts" here.


Different community aside, that makes little sense. People will come to Project Evil in time and it will be a similar community to Project Evil considering many more of our members here will join it with time. Without sounding irritated I believe we should be thinking more long term here. If we keep complaining on what is happening now things will only get worse in the long run.



Wolfshead said:


> I already spoke on this


He doesn't just speak of off-topic discussion, though. He also means discussing Tolkien related matters, and how they can be closed when they become too relevant to the real world. Do you propose that when that happens the thread is moved over to Project Evil?

I already spoke on this matter in previous posts.

~Rai


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## Wolfshead

Wraithguard said:


> He doesn't just speak of off-topic discussion, though. He also means discussing Tolkien related matters, and how they can be closed when they become too relevant to the real world. Do you propose that when that happens the thread is moved over to Project Evil?
> 
> I already spoke on this matter in previous posts.
> 
> ~Rai


You made a bit of a hash of that...


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## Valandil

dapence said:


> :
> :
> ... This thread is proof enough that it was a good decision. We can't even discuss banning these topics without members leaving in a huff.
> :
> :



Unfortunately, I think the title has set the tone.


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## Gothmog

Thorondor_ said:


> I feel compeled to ask this question again:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What are the dangers of discussing politics and religion?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And I hope that at least Gothmog will reply . Thanks.
Click to expand...

I am sorry that it has taken me so long to reply to this question but I have been busy in real life.

Now the problems and dangers of such discussions lie not in in-thread flaming which can be easily dealt with by a Mod with a range of responses starting with a few words of warning (my personal favorite) upto if necessasary a total ban on the member/s in question. The dangers lie in the animosity being carried from the thread out to the rest of the forum which can then involve other members who normally avoid political/religious arguments. This has happened more than once on TTF.

For a long time the guilds of Politics and of Religion had many disscussions which often became heated. However, while the arguments were kept in the respective areas the rest of the site did not even notice. Unfortunatly we had a problem where the animosity did start to spread and this was the reason that the guilds were removed.

We have tried to have such discussions a couple of times but like Arda Marred, we seen to find that the animosity will not stay put.


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## Thorondor_

> The dangers lie in the animosity being carried from the thread out to the rest of the forum which can then involve other members who normally avoid political/religious arguments.


The problem is that flamming cannot be avoided altogether, even in Tolkien-related topics; I have been personally attacked on such a thread and _still_ resent it.

As a general question: how large is the umbrella of the banned topics?

And more specific: can I start a thread on the personal perception of some obscure or at least, not-so-read books, such as the bhagavad gita, hidden words or the essential gate? 
I expect that very few people read them, and from those that did read them, there must have been a common interest present already; given the depth of the topic, it would simply be a discussion between connoisseurs. Starting such a thread would be informative with very little, if any, chance of heated discussion.


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## HLGStrider

I think that in your thread that would obviously be allowed. I also think putting in a not so obscure text, such as the Bible or Q'oran (I am probably misspelling that, but I have seen it spelled multiple ways and I always get them muddled), in such a context would be COMPLETELY acceptable. The difficulty is when someone posts "Do you really believe the stuff in that book?" or "I don't know why anyone would(n't) read that book. . ." and get it into a deeper issue. 

We still have a Prayer Request thread in Member Announcements. We are still allowing Biblical passages in the Quote of the Day thread. We are allowing spiritual and political messages in signatures as long as they do not blatantly attack another group. 

So what we are trying to avoid is threads devoted to these subjects totally or threads that are not devoted to these subjects being taken over by these subjects.

Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm new to this mod stuff.


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## Wraithguard

In other words my sig cannot read, "We shall cast the non-believers into the fire, and shall peel back their flesh and feed it to the lowely pig, so that they may be forever humiliated. Let us tear off their limbs and use them as walking sticks, so that their humility endures, and let their limbs ne'er rot so that our authority may endure!" am I right?

Nah I'm just messin around. I can have fun can't I?


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## AraCelebEarwen

*shivers*  Have fun yes, but it might be wise indeed to save that for the battle cry in some RPG somewhere!   After all, Christians are warriors but we try to be at least somewhat peaceful and kind!


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## Thorondor_

> I think that in your thread that would obviously be allowed. I also think putting in a not so obscure text, such as the Bible or Q'oran (I am probably misspelling that, but I have seen it spelled multiple ways and I always get them muddled), in such a context would be COMPLETELY acceptable. The difficulty is when someone posts "Do you really believe the stuff in that book?" or "I don't know why anyone would(n't) read that book. . ." and get it into a deeper issue.


I am not sure... so can I start a topic concerning the personal perception of any of the three books I mentioned?
[We can make whatever rules we want, many threads have specific rules. Should the thread be limited only to the philosophical aspect of the book? Should we allow only participants that have already read the books? Or only participants that accept their significance?]

And (for the third time): what sort of topics are religious? [Or, more exactly, what makes a topic _too_ religious?]


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## HLGStrider

No, the thread you suggest would be designated purely for religion, so it would not be allowed. 

I think it will be very hard to define, so we will have to go on a case by case thread by thread in a lot of cases, because the same topic handled different ways can alter in its content incredibly.


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## Thorondor_

Ok, can you give me an example of a topic bordering religion that is allowed? I just need to see where the line is drawn.


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## HLGStrider

Anything dealing with Tolkien that stays dealing with Tolkien.

Your book thread.
The prayer request thread.

Those were two examples I already gave.


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## Arthur_Vandelay

Are we _still_ arguing about this?

Come to *Project Evil*


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## yhwh1st

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*



Wolfshead said:


> Everything intelligent here pretty much *has* to be Tolkien-related. That might be alright for some people, but to have a busy forum you need the off-topic too. For some reason it's alright to have a thread about who has the coolest avatar, or who likes playing Zelda, but it's against the rules to discuss Darwin's theory of evolution. The people who can have in depth discussion about Tolkien matters are unlikely to give a damn about who has the best avatar, or a kids computer game. They're probably more concerned about the threat from terrorism, or the state of the economy, for example. But they are prevented from discussing these because an argument might break out.


 
Wolfshead is right. If you don't want to take part in a broad conversation, then you have the option of simply not reading the thread. Why not talk about religion or politics? To live in this world, a person must understand that one cannot go outside without being offended at all. One word sums it all up: courtesy. We ought to be courtious to one another and try not to offend eachother.


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## AraCelebEarwen

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*



yhwh1st said:


> Wolfshead is right. If you don't want to take part in a broad conversation, then you have the option of simply not reading the thread. Why not talk about religion or politics? To live in this world, a person must understand that one cannot go outside without being offended at all. One word sums it all up: courtesy. We ought to be courtious to one another and try not to offend eachother.



YEAH!!!  You tell 'em... umm, girl?   And... uh... is there a nickname you go by?


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## ingolmo

I think that the recent downfall of TTF for about four days (It has quiet  ) is due to Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince. Everyone is too busy reading it, including me...


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## Wraithguard

Politics were removed because people seem to lack the ability to be courteous. I support the creation of Project Evil but I am neutral on the removal of those topics from TTF. It does equal good as it does harm. TTF is not going to fall for at least a few more years. We are still getting new members that frequent here and have plenty of old members that do so as well. The way I see it TTF is still a regular and happy community. Besides... it is _still_ summertime and people are out doing other things with little or no time to be on the internet unlike some of us. Unfortunately I will go back on regular training come August 8 so I will be unable to come here as often if at all. A Platoon Sergeant's job is never done.

~Rai


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## Eledhwen

ingolmo said:


> I think that the recent downfall of TTF for about four days (It has quiet  ) is due to Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince. Everyone is too busy reading it, including me...


Do you want me to tell you what happens? 


Wraithguard said:


> Politics were removed because people seem to lack the ability to be courteous.


Same applies to religion, vegetarianism, global markets; anything that people feel passionate about. It even applied to Film versus Book of Tolkien, where mods had to intervene in some quite bloody fights. It's sort of like road rage, but through the computer instead.

Warnings and suspensions only work for some people.


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## Arvedui

In my opinion, this is all pretty simple: this is The TOLKIEN Forum.
And it is not hard to understand that after a time, most topics have been discussed, right? After all, tolkien wasn't producing books like for instance P.G. Wodehouse.
Some came along and when they had discussed all they were interested in, they left. Or Real Life took hold of them. That happens, you know.

I remember a couple of years back, when every newcomer was treated with a link to an old thread whenever he/she asked a question that had been asked before. Luckily we were able to stop that routine, or TTF would have been a museum now.
Yes, activity has dropped the last year or so, but that is mainly because the hype around the P.J. LOTR-inspired films have now disappeared.


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## Daranavo

The name of this site is middleearthrpg.com Not debatepolitics.com Or christianopinions.com or even steaklovers.com If I wanted to discuss politics, there are many many many other sites in which I could do so. Why should the moderators have to do extra work about subjects that do not relate to the site specific content of this site? I logon this site to look at writings, poetry, and content that specifically relates to Tolkien's works. If I wish to read/write about Robert Jordan or any other writer, I will go to a site that supports that. In any given day I may jump to 4 or 5 different sites that have my interests at heart. Each interest specifically supported by each and are discussed more in depth at each site. 

This site has been around longer than many others like it. For a very long time I only just read what others were writing. When someone loses interest, another gains it. That is why its attendance increases and decreases only to increase again. Why try and make it something it isnt?

Now, I can understand that some members who know each other fairly well are genuinely interested on what other members think about subjects like Politics, or Catholicism. However, does that do justice to the site? What if your opinion upsets someone else? Oh I remember, then don't risk it and read that particular forum, thats right I forgot. Hmm, a quandry it is.


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## Arthur_Vandelay

Daranavo said:


> The name of this site is middleearthrpg.com Not debatepolitics.com Or christianopinions.com or even steaklovers.com



I thought it was thetolkienforum.com


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## Daranavo

I believe middleearthrpg.com is the whole site name in which the url you listed is its forum or a forum.


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## Talierin

Umm, no. thetolkienforum.com is the original site, and we used to have rpgs on here, until someone felt like we had enough players we could expand them into a sister-site just for rpging, which is middleearthrpg.com. thetolkienforum.com has been here for six years, whereas middleearthrpg.com is only about a year (or two, I forget) old.


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## Ingwë

> www.thetolkienforum.com has been here for six years


Six years? Then it was created in 1999? WOW! I can't believe! That's great  But it moved on this board in 2201  Here is the old thread: The History of the TOLKIEN FORUM


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## Celebthôl

Talierin said:


> Umm, no. thetolkienforum.com is the original site, and we used to have rpgs on here, until someone felt like we had enough players we could expand them into a sister-site just for rpging, which is middleearthrpg.com. thetolkienforum.com has been here for six years, whereas middleearthrpg.com is only about a year (or two, I forget) old.



NO WAY HAS IT BEEN SIX YEARS?!

K not for me, but man thats a long time for a forum to be about and still be going well!

Also, i love the topics in this thread about not being allowed to discuss religion and politics, just goes to show how bad people are at handling it! Make me chuckle reading some of the posts.


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## Wolfshead

*Re: TTF get yo head out of your.. (or why even have a forum?)...*



Wolfshead said:


> And a brief aside, I'd recommend the multi-quote function that vBulletin allows, Beorn - makes responding to multiple posts at once much easier


And 21 months later my suggestion is made into reality


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## Eledhwen

I haven't even looked to see what the multi-quote thingy is for.

What is it for?


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## Wolfshead

Eledhwen said:


> I haven't even looked to see what the multi-quote thingy is for.
> 
> What is it for?


Multi-quoting... It lets you quote more than one post at a time. Very useful.


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## Eledhwen

Oh! I always do that manually. Kewl!


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