# The worst deed of Melko



## Ithrynluin (Apr 1, 2005)

> _The History of Middle-earth Volume II: The Book of Lost Tales II_
> 'Great was the power of Melko for ill,' said Eriol, 'if he could indeed destroy with his cunning the happiness and glory of the Gods and Elves, darkening the light of their dwelling and bringing all their love to naught. This must surely be the worst deed that ever he has done.'
> 'Of a truth never has such evil again been done in Valinor,' said Lindo, 'but Melko's hand has laboured at worse things in the world, and the seeds of his evil have waxen since to a great and terrible growth.'



Do you agree with Eriol that this was the worst deed of Melko, or do you lean more to Lindo's side, in which case, what event in specific was worse and why?


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## Alatar (Apr 1, 2005)

The worse deed of Melko was the creation of orcs.  
It was the most hatefull to Eru.


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## Ingwë (Apr 1, 2005)

Yes, that deed is bad but is it the worst. Actually I think all deeds of Melkor are bad, very bad. He didn't do anything good. He is evil. 
Melkor (and his servants) have killed Fëanor the Great, Fingolfin was slain, Fingon has been killed; Тurgon, Finrod and other elven heroes were slain. So many great warriors were killed by Melkor. I think there is no worst of his deeds.
Yes, Ithy, that's right. He can and he tries to destroy everything good, to break the light and to be the Lord of Arda. *This must surely be the worst deed that ever he has done. 
*


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## Elfarmari (Apr 1, 2005)

I would say that the worst deed of Melkor, if it can be called one 'deed', is the dissemination of his power throughout the matter of Arda. This put a Melkor-ingredient (I think that's what Tolkien calls it somewhere) into everything deriving its substance from Arda, including the Children of Eru. This makes it impossible to eliminate Melkor entirely from Arda, even when he himself is cast into the void. It also leaves a subtle corruption in all material things, which is impossible to avoid.


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## baragund (Apr 3, 2005)

The estrangement of Elves and Men has to be up there. That, along with his initial corruption of Men when they first awoke. Those accomplishments left, and will continue to leave their evil legacy through all the ages until Arda is remade.


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## Arvedui (Apr 4, 2005)

Everything melkor did was born through his desire to have Arda to himself. Because of that, I find it hard to find one particular deed that are worse than the other, but twisting Elves into Orcs will probably end on top of the list.


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## Gothmog (Apr 4, 2005)

I find that I am in agreement with Elfarmari. The destruction of the Trees and the darkening of Valinor was indeed Evil, however, it was also the reason for the creation of the Sun and the Moon and for the Valar to once more look outside the boundries of their land where they were living in much the same way as Tom Bombadil would during the War of the Ring. This resulted in Much more good for Arda than evil for Valinor. So this is a deed where as Manwë said elsewhere 'Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil yet be good to have been.'

However, Melko's disemination of his power throughout Arda is an evil that can never be erradicated while Arda lasts.


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## Gil-Galad (Apr 4, 2005)

I agree with Elfmari and Gothmog's thoughts.....what Melkor did in Arda continued giving results even after he was defeated.
He managed to spread away his evil ,which could not be stopped even after ages.Even in the end of III age we still can see things which were result of his actions in Arda in the past....


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## Arvegil (Apr 4, 2005)

I'm with Elfarmari. That is the one act which, under Tolkien's cosmology, will continue to generate new evils until the end of Arda, and the one which is impossible to escape.


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## YayGollum (Apr 5, 2005)

just because I am bored, the worst deed of Mel's was letting Hurin live. Not that it was evil for him to keep the guy around just to have fun with torture, but because later, Hurin killed Mim. Poor Mim. He was such a cool dude! I could go on a rant about how tragic his life was, but this is not the right place for that, is it? *sniff*


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## Maggot (Apr 5, 2005)

Personally I agree with Avatar that the creation of the orcs was the most hateful to Iluvatar but it was not his worse deed. That was by far the dessimation of the 2 trees Laurelin and Telperion shown on our superb banner clap clap. Also the torture of Hurin was a horrible deed who afterwards killed Mim who was indeed as Yaygollum said a dude also Mim let Turin stay in his house a while and Turin was the best man ever to live,even better than Beren in my opinion. Also another horrible deed was the first ever murder on Finwe high king of the Noldor.


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## Elorendil (Apr 6, 2005)

Hmm, his worst deed? They were all pretty nasty. It's hard to pick one! I would have to agree with Elfarmari, though. Spreading his evil throughout M-E is probably the worst of his deeds. Twisting the poor elves into orcs comes in a close second, I think.


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## Arvedui (Apr 7, 2005)

But is "spreading his evil throughout Arda" a deed in itself?

I don't know, but I have never thought of Melkor's infesting Arda with his spirit as a concious action, but more as a result of the horrible deeds he commited.

But I could of course be wrong...


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## Confusticated (Apr 7, 2005)

Marring Arda itself was the biggest in scale in some ways, and even though the breeding of orcs was the most hateful to Eru, in some ways I see the Fall of Men as the worst. The direct and severe corruption not of the work of the Valar and the habbitat of the Children of Iluvatar, but of the Children themselves.

Compare Elves in Middle-earth to Men in Numenor. Unfallen race in a Fallen world, then a Fallen race in a land that is nearly Arda Unmarred (JRRT Refers to Aman and Eressea as Arda Unmarred, and in my opinion Numenor was more like these than Middle-earth).


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## Ingwë (Apr 7, 2005)

I agree with Elfarmari and Gothmog. Melkor`s Balrog fight agains Gandalf and he almost kill him. The orcs still make problems  So many dwarves were slain by the orcs. Melkor really is not in Arda but his evil servants continue killing fair creatures.



> Marring Arda itself was the biggest in scale in some ways


I would say in all ways. 



> Compare Elves in Middle-earth to Men in Numenor. Unfallen race in a Fallen world, then a Fallen race in a land that is nearly Arda Unmarred


Sorry Nóm but I think Sauron himself have 'helped' Numenorean`s falling-off and destroying. Or you mean Sauron was Melkor's student and Morgoth is the source of that evil?


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## Confusticated (Apr 7, 2005)

Ingwë said:


> Sorry Nóm but I think Sauron himself have 'helped' Numenorean`s falling-off and destroying. Or you mean Sauron was Melkor's student and Morgoth is the source of that evil?


That Sauron pushed them over the edge and to Morgoth-worship doesn't change the fact that they were already falling under shadow before Sauron came among them. Their long life which aided in their achivements caused in them a desire to live longer and enjoy these achivements. This was the seed of their falling into shadow. The paradise and longer life worked against them as a consequence of their original Fall.

What I ment was for people to ask themselves if a Fallen race could live well in a world not corrupted by Melkor, and if this is a worse situation than an Unfallen race in Fallen world, as a way to compare which is worse: Fallen race or Marred Arda.

But of course that doesn't answer the question. How did Arda Marred impact the Fall of Men? What will be the fate of Men as a consequence of their being Fallen? If the Fall altered the ultimate fate of the Children or of Arda for the worse then I think this is a bigger evil deed. Personally I can't imagine that all the spirits of men will one day be free from the shadow they knew in life on Arda, not even when they go beyond it. I see that as a more lasting effect than a world touched by evil and decay, and which is only temperary for Men and optional for most Elves, and may even be re-made one day.

But if one thinks that the spirits of Men are better for the suffering they know in life, then maybe the Fall is a good thing to them, and Melkor was the only instrument Iluvatar could use to cause his own creations to truly rebel against him and therefore have a truly Free Will.

And most of that concerns Men. There is also the question of how the Marring of Arda effects the Elves. They can go to Aman but even there things age slowly... was this in the original design? And if not, can we mortals ever guess the extent of Elves' suffering?


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## Beleg (Apr 7, 2005)

objectively speaking I suppose what Elfamari describes can be regarded as his 'worst' deed. However, what pissed me off more on a personal level was his treatment of Hurin and family. 

nom, 

fall of man was the eventual result of the chain reaction that started with the corruption of arda, won't you agree? if so than how can you regard one as being worse than the other?


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## Confusticated (Apr 7, 2005)

Because I'm a moron - why else?

But then why not say his worst deed was when he tried to increase his part in the music and caused discord?


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## Arvedui (Apr 8, 2005)

As "The Music" described most of what was to become, then you could also say that Melkor's discord was his only true deed....

But to be a bit more serious:
With Melkor infesting Arda with his 'malice,' the Fall of Men is almost inevitable. But one of the questions about the Fall is what they Fell from? Were Men, as Andreth suggested, blessed with Longevity as the Firstborn? If not, what did they Fall from?
The only possible option IMO, is that they Fell from being true followers of Eru. That is, they worshipped Melkor instead (or rather Morgoth at the time being). But as I have said before, there is an inconsistency (sp?) in the _Athrabeth_ at that point, as it is stated in _The Silmarillion_ that Morgoth could not take on a fair form after the slaying of the Trees, but in the _Tale of Adanel_ it is referred to


> Then one appeared among us, in our own form visible, but greater and more beautiful.


 So this could IMO not have been Morgoth. Maybe this was just an excuse?

But does matter if Melkor infested Arda with his malice, in the long run? This is what is written in HoME X, Myths Transformed:


> For which reason it is said that whereas there is now great evil in Arda and many things therein are at discord, so that the good of one seemeth to be the hurt of another, nonetheless hte foundations of this world are good, and it turns by nature to good, healing itself from within by the power that was set there in its making; and evil in Arda would fail and pass away if it were not renewed from without: that is: that comes from wills and being [sic] that are other that Arda itself.


And IMO, there is a limit to how long Melkor/Morgoth can continue to spread his evil. The power that he spends can't be renewed.


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## Ingwë (Apr 8, 2005)

*Re: The worst deed of Melkor*

Nóm, I can`t say anything about your post (the long one). It is very interesting. 
Arvedui, I agree with you. Melkor 'infected' the men and they wanted to be immortal. They sought peace because they were tired of the world. They are mortal but they remember the deeds of Morgoth - imprisoning Hurin, Turin Turambar's fate - all bad deeds of Melkor. Maybe they wanted to escape from the Middle earth. They were going west and north - in Beleriand where Me and Valinor are near. But when they arrived there they saw sorrow, wars and dearth. After all they escaped - they dwell in Numenore. 
After a while *Sauron *helped the Fall of Numenor. He went to Numenor as a prisoner but he told Numenorean kings bad things and they attacked Valinor. 
Finally I would say Melkor begin infecting men but Saron himself ended that bad deed of his master of old.


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## Beleg (Apr 8, 2005)

nom,

Morgoth's greed ties in directly with the poisioning of Arda and the fall of Man. They are all just different stages of a single reaction. (while his treatment and subsequent damnation of Hurin was a different deed altogether) 

arvedui,

A close theological parallel (re: fall of man) is Jews' fall from grace after the Moses debacle. I wonder if it is touched upon in the Bible.


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## Confusticated (Apr 8, 2005)

I don't see how the seduction of an entire race of people should not be viewed as a deed on its own simply because it was one of a long line of corruptive evils, while at the same time the evil treatment of a single man is. This classification seems so abitrary to me that I can't imagine why someone would go as far as to try to convince someone that they are wrong for seeing it otherwise.


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## Gothmog (Apr 8, 2005)

The 'seduction of an entire race of people' was a deed to be considered along with a 'long line of corruptive evils' each of which was a "Deed" to be compared to others.

My position is that bad as was the corruption of Men and even Elves. These could have been more limited in scope without the disemination of Melkor's essence throughout Arda marring the whole of Arda and all that came from Arda or were nurished by Arda. It also allowed Melkor's influence continue long after he was thrust out into the void and also long after Sauron was rendered impotent by the destruction of the One Ring.


Arvedui said:


> And IMO, there is a limit to how long Melkor/Morgoth can continue to spread his evil. The power that he spends can't be renewed.


It is true that the power cannot be renewed. Yet it cannot be wholly removed without the destruction of Arda. While it no doubt would gradually lessen in effect over the many ages of Arda, it would also still be there even to the end of days.


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## Maerbenn (Apr 8, 2005)

Arvedui said:


> there is an inconsistency (sp?) in the _Athrabeth_ at that point, as it is stated in _The Silmarillion_ that Morgoth could not take on a fair form after the slaying of the Trees, but in the _Tale of Adanel_ it is referred to
> 
> 
> > Then one appeared among us, in our own form visible, but greater and more beautiful.
> ...


In the ‘Athrabeth’, the Awakening of Men is moved back in time. Tolkien seems to have placed the event around the time of the Great March or the Sack of Utumno, long before the slaying of the Trees.


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## Inderjit S (Apr 9, 2005)

As for the "fall" of Man-ever read Candide? Perhaps it would be better if we just dug holes in the ground.  

On matters pertaining to Men in Middle-Earth, the Atrhabeth remains the greatest philopsphical consideration of the matter available to us-though the philopshy of the Athrabeth is relevant to us too.

Isn't it ironic that the Numenoreans-who were, in a sense, "restored" to fit the image of original man, as far as restoration was possible, eventually seeked to take over the world? 

If Eru wanted puppets then he wouldn't have created Men-if he wanted wise beings he would have simply created more Elves.

What was Melkor's worst deed? Being Melkor perhaps? Certainly such a deed far surpasses any other!


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## Arvedui (Apr 11, 2005)

Gothmog said:


> It is true that the power cannot be renewed. Yet it cannot be wholly removed without the destruction of Arda. While it no doubt would gradually lessen in effect over the many ages of Arda, it would also still be there even to the end of days.


Of course. As the foundations of Arda are basicly "good," which cannot be changed, then the "bad" influence of Melkor/Morgoth cannot be wholly removed neither. Not without bringing in the Second Prophecy of Mandos, at least.



Nóm said:


> I don't see how the seduction of an entire race of people should not be viewed as a deed on its own simply because it was one of a long line of corruptive evils,


 I agree!


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## chrysophalax (Apr 13, 2005)

Personally, I feel Melkor was at his most brilliant and insidious when he infused his spirit into Arda itself. "Destroy me, will you? Fine! But I'll take every last one of your creations with me!" *evil laughter ensues*


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## Elorendil (Apr 13, 2005)

chrysophalax said:


> Personally, I feel Melkor was at his most brilliant and insidious when he infused his spirit into Arda itself. "Destroy me, will you? Fine! But I'll take every last one of your creations with me!" *evil laughter ensues*


 
*shivers* Ooh, that gives me the chills!

If you think about it, all of Morgoth's deeds can be traced back to one single deed; seeking to increase his own power and glory by sowing his own disonnance in the Music. Or, even further, to his desire "to bring into Being things of his own" (Silmarillion, the Ainulindalë). It could be argued that allowed those thoughts that were not of Iluvatar and those desires to come into his mind, that he would have never done his many other evil deeds. So, in that respect, his worst deed was allowing those thoughts into his mind in the first place.


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## chrysophalax (Apr 14, 2005)

Elor, I beg to differ! The "evil" of which you speak is creativity...the imaginative rhythm to which Melkor lived and moved and had his being (to paraphrase). To say that his ability to see things from a different perspective is "wrong" would be to wish that all of Middle Earth was in thrall to one will...that of Iluvatar!

From my own viewpoint, Iluvatar, with his insistence on order, sowed the seeds of Melkor's discord and thus opened the door for all that came to pass. What father, what mother would rein in their child's delight at something new and different? Granted, Melkor was not the offspring of Iluvatar per se, but rather, he was counted as the mightiest of the Ainur. Not one to hide his light under a basket, Melkor came forward and displayed his creative genius...to mixed reviews.

It was only upon being ignored and told to "Sing what's written...no more scat!" that he "branched out" so to speak. To sum up, had Iluvatar been a tad more open...who knows what wonders Melkor might have shown himself capable of?

It's all a matter of perspective.


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## Elorendil (Apr 14, 2005)

I would argue that Iluvatar was open to the imaginings of each of the Ainur. He didn't dictate exactly what each of the Ainur played, he assigned them a part and a basic melody. They were supposed to then give that main theme their own variations and thoughts. 
This could be compared to an orchestral piece from the Baroque era. Composers usually wrote out the main theme and added repeat signs. The performers were supposed to add their own interpretation and ornamentation to keep it from getting boring and overly repetitive. This allows for huge amounts of creativity and innovation, but the players still have to stay within the main theme given by the composer! It's also a huge responsibility; their are rules of music that must be kept in mind and the player cannot break them. But Melkor wasn't happy to just add his own variations, he wanted to write his own music that was completely different. Writing his own music wasn't wrong, it was the time and the place that he chose for it. If a french hornist decided in the middle of an orchestral piece that they wanted to write their own music and started playing their own thing right in the middle of the piece, the conductor would have a spaz attack! But Iluvatar didn't freak out. He gave tried to change the theme so that it incorporated Morgoth's ideas, but then Morgoth changed his part again to something else that contradicted the music. Iluvatar tried several times to include Morgoth's creativity in his theme, but Morgoth insisted on changing his part every time. This is not creative thinking, it's blatant rebellion against the will of the composer, Iluvatar.

And who could blame Iluvatar for insisting on order? What composer wants musicians to take a song that they wrote and completely change their part into something that doesn't fit into the overall plan? Heehee, Beethoven would have been absolutely furious! (but then, he was known for his temper ) I compose music and there are specific things that I make very clear how they should be played/performed, but there are other things that I allow each performer to interpet for themselves. Any good musician understands that it is only permissible to take a certain amount of liberty with someone else's work. Morgoth overstepped those bounds by trying to re-write his part entirely into something completely different from what was given to him by Iluvatar. And, given his knowledge and power, I'm sure his part was pretty important and impressive to begin with. Why did he have to insist on doing something completely different?


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## chrysophalax (Apr 14, 2005)

Because, like all true artists, he wanted to add his OWN take on things. Trust me, as regards music, I know whereof I speak. I was stage manager for two symphony orchestras and had the great privilege of meeting Maestro Solti once. 

I agree in part with your analogy of the conductor wanting all players to play their parts as written...however...when there is NO conductor? Here we have jazz, rap, chants...music that doesn't have to fit in a metered box. Iluvatar basically told Melkor to go stand out on the street while the rest of them got on with it..so who can blame him? 

I could make comparisons to many freethinkers throughout history, but that would not be entirely germain. The point is, Melkor was frowned upon and eventually dubbed "evil" because he refused to compromise. The question then becomes...would he have remained that way if he had been more carefully cultivated by Iluvatar...rather than Iluvatar basically ignoring him and letting his peers handle him?

He was a rebel! Not all revolution is bad...it becomes so when the party against which rebellion is directed refuses to listen.


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## Elorendil (Apr 14, 2005)

chrysophalax said:


> I agree in part with your analogy of the conductor wanting all players to play their parts as written...however...when there is NO conductor? Here we have jazz, rap, chants...music that doesn't have to fit in a metered box.


I never have a conductor (in piano, at least. I do in choir.) but I still play the music according to the intent of the composer. Do I take a few liberties and add my own take? Yes. All good musicians do, but there is a very fine line between taking liberties and disregarding the intent of the composer. I have studied the composers and their musical eras they have come from so that I can discern, with some accuracy, what a particular composer would have considered an acceptable interpretation of their piece. 

As for Jazz and rap, etc., I did forget about those. What can I say, I'm a Classical nerd. *sighs* That's what happens to us poor musicians who are permanently attached to our instruments. It's unusual for me to be more than ten feet away from a piano for an extended period of time! 
Even in Jazz, where much of it is improvised, their are still specific chords, etc. given by the composer that provide basic guidelines for the improvisation and outline the basic intent. If the music of Morgoth was creating dissonance, he could not have been within those chords and, therefore, not within the original intent of the music. As for the subject of Rap... I'm not going to touch that with a ten foot pole. I would only offend the people who like rap. 



> I could make comparisons to many freethinkers throughout history, but that would not be entirely germain. The point is, Melkor was frowned upon and eventually dubbed "evil" because he refused to compromise. The question then becomes...would he have remained that way if he had been more carefully cultivated by Iluvatar...rather than Iluvatar basically ignoring him and letting his peers handle him?


 Perhaps he could have been handled a little better. But I still think that his rebellion was wrong. He was compromising the will and plan of his creator. He was created for a purpose and he basically decided that he was too good for that role and started trying to transform it into something else. Yes, he did have a vision and he was not willing to compromise. But both he and Iluvatar cannot have their way at the same time. So the question then is: who has priority? The creator or the created? I would have to side with the creator.


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## chrysophalax (Apr 15, 2005)

Seems we've gotten a bit off-topic here, since this thread was designed for opinion rather than debate. I would be delighted to continue this via PM, Elor.


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 17, 2005)

Oh, do continue here if you wish, guys. It's an interesting take on the issue, and others can chime in as well.


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## Confusticated (Apr 25, 2008)

Maybe some newer members will want to add their opinions. 



> _Originally Posted by Nóm_
> Because I'm a moron - why else?


 - Haha...


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## Curufin (May 14, 2008)

The marring of Fëanor, who could have been a great(er) scholar and a great(er) artist without Melkor's lies.





> 'Neither did they [The Valar] mourn more for the death of the Trees than for the marring of Fëanor: of all Melkor's works the most wicked. For Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind: in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and subtlety alike: of all the Children of Eru, and a bright flame was in him. The works of wonder for the glory of Arda that he might otherwise have wrought only Manwë might in some measure conceive.'


~Section 6, 'The Annals of Aman', Morgoth's Ring


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## Illuin (May 31, 2008)

> _from Elorendil_
> _Do I take a few liberties and add my own take? Yes. All good musicians do, but there is a very fine line between taking liberties and disregarding the intent of the composer._


I agree with points both of you make (Elorendil and chrysophalax). But I think Tolkien was hinting toward the fact that Melkor wasn’t just being creative, but he was being obnoxious and overriding in a spiteful manner (if you have ever been in a band and auditioned various drummers, you get my point). It’s one thing to infuse creative exposition into a piece, but being brazen and distasteful is something else entirely. I believe it was more akin to "_Wachet auf, ruft uns die Stimme"_ being rudely interjected with _Marilyn Manson_ at arena volume (or the reverse, depending on your tastes), and not mere theme and variation.


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