# Ents roused before?



## Starflower (Jan 7, 2008)

> 'The Ents made up their minds rather quickly, after all, didn't they?'
> Pippin ventured to say after some time, when for a moment the singing paused, and only the beating of hands and feet was heard.
> 'Quickly?' said Treebeard. 'Hoom! Yes, indeed. Quicker than I expected.
> *Indeed I have not seen them roused like this for many an age. We Ents do not like being roused; and we never are roused unless it is clear to us that our
> ...



Treebeard's answer seems to suggest that back in the time of the Numenoreans, the Ents were roused to act. But, there is no mention of it anywhere else (that I can find). Has anyone actually found a mention of the Ents' fight against Sauron in any of the unfinished writings? Would be interesting to find out if the Professor did ever explore this thread further...


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## Mali (Apr 22, 2008)

good question. I personally have been looking for this, in the trilogy and other books, yet have not been able to find it. However, Tolkien does seem to mention things and not go into detail or mention them further--nor can he, since his works are very complex. good luck on your search.


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## YayGollum (Apr 22, 2008)

Hm? Am I incorrect in figuring that the Ents were roused while killing a bunch of Dwarves for no good reason as they were were only trying to go back to their homes in the Blue Mountains? Other than that, they were only ever roused towards the beginning, when Orome still hunted giant monsters. *sniff*


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## Elthir (Apr 22, 2008)

Treebeard refers earlier to the war (singular) between Sauron and the Men of the Sea, which is very close in wording anyway, and by which he likely means _The Last Alliance_ -- concerning which Tolkien scholars Hammond and Scull agree, due to the comments concerning the Entwives and the 'scorched earth policy' by Sauron that burned their land.

Treebeard says he crossed over Anduin but found a desert, but doesn't say he participated in the War IIRC. Earlier he says to Merry that he has not troubled about the _Great Wars_, but used to be anxious when the Shadow lay on Mirkwood: 'but when it removed to Mordor, I did not trouble for a while.'

By 'Great Wars' Treebeard might mean (as Robert Foster's entry agrees): _'The struggles of Men and Elves against Morgoth and Sauron, so called by Fangorn'_ But if Sauron is included then how about the Last Alliance? Or is this term reserved for the First Age when Morgoth and Sauron were together, and even the great Last Alliance is comparatively 'lesser'. In _Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age_ it was said (with reference to the Last Alliance): 'All living things were divided in that day, and some of every kind, even of beast and birds, were found in either host, save the Elves only. They alone were undivided and followed Gil-galad.'

My _guess_ would have to be, if indeed Treebeard means 'roused' as in enough to go to War, that he's talking about the Last Alliance in some way, though again I'm not exactly sure why it wouldn't be considered in his 'Great Wars'. The earlier War of the Elves and Sauron also ultimately included the West-Men, in any case. 

All I can really say with any certainty so far is... good question


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## Gordis (Apr 23, 2008)

> Treebeard's answer seems to suggest that back in the time of the Numenoreans, the Ents were roused to act. But, there is no mention of it anywhere else (that I can find). Has anyone actually found a mention of the Ents' fight against Sauron in any of the unfinished writings?


Perhaps the Ents had fought against the Second Age Numenoreans, not Sauron? Since the time of Aldarion, the Numenoreans were systematically deforesting large areas in Eriador - the wooded land around the Gwathlo has become a barren plain (UT). I don't think the Ents looked kindly at it. But there is not a single proof that they have acted back then.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Apr 26, 2008)

I always assumed this meant that, since lately (during the war of the Ring) the ents had tended to go more 'treeish' and all, that they all hadn't been awakened and excited and active as they were at this time.


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## Firawyn (Apr 26, 2008)

To add to this question: At what point did they "loose the Entwives"?

And could loosing them have been a cause for them to be roused, since in the time of the War of the Ring they were unwilling to go to war at first, saying that they would just weather it out, like the always did, not getting involved in the wars of men?


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## Tar-Surion (Jul 20, 2008)

I have always been interested in this matter and indeed the hidden history of the Second Age of Middle Earth in general.

I have always wondered about the Ents; if it was their task to protect the forests from those who would destroy them, then they didn't do a good job. 

The only pieces of the primal forest preserved by Frodo's time was Fangorn, the Old Forest and Mirkwood. Only one of these was guarded by Ents, the other two were by other powers; in the case of Mirkwood whoever was keeping wood-cutters at bay did so more successfully than the Ents in Eriador. 

According to the Professor, the culprit and chief destroyer of forests, were the Numenoreans of the Second Age. It is hard to believe that the Ents were not aware of their actions, or that they regarded them with equanimity, or that they made no attempt to stop them as they laid waste 97% of the forests of Eriador. 

Conflict between them was almost inevitable in my opinion, and it was not necessarily one that the Numenoreans could win. If I was Treebeard I would have given the Numenorean timber-cutter settlements the Isengard treatment until they got the message. They would not have been hard to find or particularly difficult to destroy. 

Even if they preferred not to do this they could have certainly, with a little help from the Huorns, exterminated or intimidated every timbering party that ventured out into the forest without their leave.

Whatever the case, the failure of "the Shepards of the Trees" to protect their charges from Numenorean greed and exploitation is most mysterious .


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## Prince of Cats (Jul 20, 2008)

Thanks for resurrecting this discussion, Tar-Surion

From Starflower's quote it sure sounds to me that Treebeard was referring to the Numenorians but my lore is limited to The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion. Gordis calls from Unfinished Tales that there was great deforestation, has anyone read the entirety of the HoME collection and can share if there is more lore to be had?


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## Tar-Surion (Jul 22, 2008)

I don't think the Ents would have been dissuaded by any moral considerations from thumping errant Numenoreans; remember what Treebeard told Merry and Pippin: "I'm not on any body's side because no one is altogether on my side." 

The Numenoreans of the Second Age were definitely not on his side. Some have suggested the servants of Sauron might have been to blame. We know that Sauron laid waste the gardens of the Entwives in what was to become the Brown Lands south of Mirkwood. That might have been the occasion when the Entwives were "lost" and might have put the Ents on the warpath in the 'War of Sauron and the Men of the Sea' that Treebeard refers to: that is, the Last Alliance; although there is no record of any Entish participation. 

Perhaps they stayed at home and guarded the lines of communication of the Allied army in the vale of the Anduin: if so, once again they didn't do a very through job as Isildur's force was ambushed and destroyed in the Gladden Field on the way home.

However it is unlikely that the Dark Lord was responsible for the deforestation of Eriador in the much earlier War of the Elves and Sauron. Forests take a lot of destroying and his armies were not in Eriador all that long, and were preoccupied with fighting the Elves and later on the counter-attacking Numenoreans under Tar-Minastir. 

It seems certain that Sauron's power in the Second Age did not extend into Eriador, even though the men of Dunharrow "worshiped him during the Dark Years." The power of Gil-galad held him at bay and the Numenorean settlements by the sea in the vicinity of what was to be Gondor and points east would have pinned Sauron's forces down. It is possible though that the men or Dunharrow and any other Servants of Sauron on the Western side of the Great River could have cut down trees in Eriador to feed the fires of Mordor.

Despite that it is fairly clear that while some of the deforestation was in the Second Age was done by the minions of the Dark Lord, but the lion's share was done by the men of Numenor. 

Perhaps Treebeard and the Ents went 'easy' on them because they knew that if Numenor could not maintain its navy they and all their trees would be left to the mercy of Sauron. If so they miscalculated: the forests were destroyed anyway.


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## Illuin (Jul 25, 2008)

The first time the Ents were roused (what Yay hinted on) was when the Dwarves plundered Doriath and killed Thingol. They were on their way back home with the Nauglamir (a necklace that held the Silmaril Beren recovered from Morgoth’s crown), when the Ents came forth and joined forces with Beren and the Green-elves:


_'Thus it came to pass when the Dwarves of Nogrod, returning from Menegroth with diminished host, came again to Sarn Athrad, they were assailed by unseen enemies; for as they climbed up Gelion’s banks burdened with the spoils of Doriath, suddenly all the woods were filled with the sound of elven-horns, and shafts sped upon them from every side. There very many of the Dwarves were slain in the first onset; but some escaping from the ambush held together, and fled eastwards towards the mountains. And as they climbed the long slopes beneath Mount Dolmed there came forth the Shepherds of the Trees, and they drove the Dwarves into the shadowy woods of Ered Lindon: whence, it is said, came never one to climb the high passes that led to their homes.'_ 

Of the Ruin of Doriath - The Silmarillion


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## camlost (Jan 2, 2011)

YayGollum said:


> Hm? Am I incorrect in figuring that the Ents were roused while killing a bunch of Dwarves for no good reason as they were were only trying to go back to their homes in the Blue Mountains? Other than that, they were only ever roused towards the beginning, when Orome still hunted giant monsters. *sniff*


 
To expand a bit on Illuin's post; I believe that the Ents weren't roused by a summon for aid from the Elves but by the large build-up of arms the Dwarves engaged in before the assault on Menegroth -- which would have no doubt included the felling of many trees in the area.


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## Alcuin (Jan 3, 2011)

I was always under the impression that the Ents came to the assistance of Beren, Dior, and the Green-elves. _Silmarillion_, “Of the Ruin of Doriath”:


> ...word went swiftly among the Elves of Ossiriand that a great host of Dwarves bearing gear of war had come... These tidings came soon to Beren and Lúthien; and in that time also a messenger came to them out of Doriath telling of what had befallen there. Then Beren ... and ... Dior his son ... went north to the River Ascar; and with them went many of the Green-elves...
> 
> ...when the Dwarves ... returning from Menegroth ... came again to Sarn Athrad, they were assailed by unseen enemies; for as they climbed up Gelion’s banks ... with the spoils of Doriath, suddenly ... shafts sped upon them from every side. ... some escaping from the ambush held together, and fled eastwards towards the mountains. ... as they climbed the long slopes beneath Mount Dolmed there came forth the Shepherds of the Trees, and they drove the Dwarves into the shadowy woods of Ered Lindon: whence, it is said, came never one to climb the high passes that led to their homes.
> 
> …Beren … himself slew the Lord of Nogrod…


So the order of events seems to be, 

The Green-elves see the Dwarves, with whom the Elves of Doriath had formerly had good relations, heading for Doriath armed for war.
Beren and Lúthien receive a report that Thingol has been murdered and Doriath sacked.
Beren and Dior lead the Green-elves to successfully ambush the Dwarves – no mean feat, given that Telchar of Nogrod was accounted the greatest weapons-smith of the First Age (he forged both Elendil’s sword Narsil and – ironically enough – Beren’s knife, Angrist, with which he cut the Silmaril from Morgoth’s crown), and these Dwarves were apparently heavily armed and armored.
After the Lord of Nogrod was slain, the survivors fought their way toward home, but were caught by the Ents.
As I reread this passage, I am struck by two things that have a similar ring in _The Lord of the Rings_

_as they climbed the long slopes beneath Mount Dolmed_ combined with_ …Beren … himself slew the Lord of Nogrod…_ is reminiscent of the fight between the Rohirrim and the Orcs in _Two Towers_ at the end of the chapter “Uruk-Hai”:


> Uglúk was overtaken and brought to bay at the very edge of Fangorn. There he was slain … by Éomer, … who dismounted and fought him sword to sword.



_they drove the Dwarves into the shadowy woods of Ered Lindon: whence … came never one to … their homes_ sounds very like the fate of the Orcs at the end of the chapter “Helm’s Deep” (the irony of comparing Dwarves to Orcs is better than the irony of Beren’s knife!):


> Wailing [noparse][[/noparse]the Orcs[noparse]][/noparse] passed under the waiting shadow of the trees; and from that shadow none ever came again.



I took this passage as indicating that the Ents attacked the Dwarves in part out of some kind of alliance or respect for Thingol, but mostly because of Beren and Lúthien, who alone had returned from Mandos to live out their mortal lives in close proximity to the Ents. (Did Treebeard know them, for instance?) But I could be wrong…


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## camlost (Jan 3, 2011)

I think both conclusions are reasonable from the vague sketch of the battle, but I feel that if they were part of the plan of Beren and Luthien Tolkien would have stated such when he wrote of their waiting in ambush with the Elves of Ossiriand.


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## Alcuin (Jan 3, 2011)

The Ents and Huorns at the Hornburg were not part of Gandalf’s “plan,” either. He disavows them in _TT_, “Road to Isengard”:


> …“The trees?” [noparse][[/noparse]Gandalf [noparse]][/noparse] said, “…[noparse][[/noparse]T[noparse]][/noparse]hat is no deed of mine. It is a thing beyond the counsel of the wise. Better than my design, and better even than my hope the event has proved.”
> 
> “Then if not yours, whose is the wizardry?” said Théoden. “Not Saruman’s, that is plain. …”
> 
> “It is not wizardry, but a power far older,” said Gandalf…


There is no doubt he told Treebeard about the situation at the Hornburg: Merry and Pippin made that plain to Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli. One difference would be that Ered Lindon was already in place, while at the Hornburg, Treebeard brought his own forest. But I think that the Ents themselves devised the plan, and they themselves carried it out. In like fashion, neither Beren nor Lúthien “planned” that the Ents would attack the Dwarves returning from sacking Doriath, but the Ents, after learning what had transpired in Menegroth, set upon them on their own account.

Remember that the creation of Ents by Yavanna was in part in out of concern for trees but also partly out of jealousy after Aulë created the Dwarves. Treebeard was not fond of Dwarves: when Legolas told him that Gimli would accompany him to visit Fangorn Forest, Treebeard responded, “A dwarf and an axe-bearer! … I have good will to Elves; but you ask much.”


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## Prince of Cats (Jan 3, 2011)

Alcuin, you're my hero of the day for bumping this thread :*)

I'd never considered really the animosity between ent and dwarf. Would either side even have been aware of the history?

If fouled elves make orcs would Melkor-tainted dwarves be master conservationists? :*D


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## Gúthwinë (Jan 3, 2011)

Now that is a question I would have to agree to!


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