# Other Stories



## Persephone (Oct 30, 2003)

Do you have a local legend, story, or folklore that is related to the characters that Tolkien had in mind?

Here in Manila, we have stories of fairies we call _ Maligno_ [Mah-leeg-nuh], however, since I've read Tolkien's writings (which was way back 92) I realized that maybe these things we call fairies are actually elves, because the description of them surely don't indicate that they are fairies, rather they look too much like elves. We also have dwarves and many of my friends claim to have seen one. But their description of dwarves matched either a goblin or a hobbit. 

We wonderssss....


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## Sarah (Oct 31, 2003)

erm... no

bigfoot is the only one i can think of. and i don't think he applies to anything. maybe a highly evolved warg...


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## jallan (Oct 31, 2003)

Hm!

I don’t quite see a translation of Tolkien using _Maligno_ ‘Bad Person’ to mean _Elf_.

Is there possibly a word in Tagalog for these people which is less derogatory?

In Celtic and English folklore fairies seem to be known as the ‘Good Folk’ for reasons of flattery rather than because they were particularly _good_. Similarly in ancient Greece the Furies were diplomatically mostly kalled the _Eumenides_, ‘Kindly Ones’.

Cherokee lore also has much in common with Germanic and Celtic fairy lore.

See Little People of the Cherokee.

But it is hard to _translate_ the names of Tolkien’s various peoples into most languages because the kinds of supernatural beings vary so widely in different cultures.

Greece knows nothing of Elves, per se. In ancient Greece to some extent the position of Elves in European folklore was taken by male satyrs and river gods and by female nymphs.

The little folk of Breton folklore, the Corrigans, had tails like satyrs.

In the _Odyssey_ both Circe and Calypso play roles often found later attributed to Fées in medieval French romance.

Tolkien does not go for that kind of thing. He provides no Elvish temptresses who attempt to seduce mortals.

Romans had Lares, gods of the fields and protectors of the homes. But Lares doesn’t seem a proper translation for _Elf_. 

In India perhaps _Gandharva_ would do for _Elf_ (if we forget about the fact that Gandharvas are sometimes described as having the heads of horses). But _Gandharvas_ are solidly male in all accounts of them while the supernatural Apsarases (sometimes translated _nymphs_) are female.

The attribution of some animal characters to supernatural beings is common. At least by Victorian times the goat ears given to satyrs by Greek artists and later applied by Christians to depictions of devils were applied to depictions of Elves and Fairies.

Tolkien makes one mention only that his Quendi had ears more pointed than [mortals?] and one mention that he visualized Hobbits with pointed ears.


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## Serendur (Nov 3, 2003)

Turin Turambar´s story was influenced by the Finnish national epic Kalevala. Moreover in Kalevala the characters fight by chanting -> the battle between Finrod and Sauron in the Silmarillion. If you want to read Kalevala in english you can find it at the address below:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/kveng/index.htm


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## Persephone (Nov 3, 2003)

> jallan
> 
> Hm!
> 
> I don’t quite see a translation of Tolkien using Maligno ‘Bad Person’ to mean Elf.



Well, Maligno doesn't just refer to Bad elements, it also refers to good elements. It's their physical description that makes them look like elves, not their personalities.

But thanks for asking.


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## jallan (Nov 3, 2003)

I was assuming, perhaps wrongly, that _Maligno_ is Spanish in origin from Latin _malignus_ meaning ‘hostile, evil in disposition, ill-willed’ whence English ‘malign’[/quote]. The opposite is Latin _benignus_ (in English _benign_).

Perhaps that meaning doesn’t come through strongly in Spanish, that these are malign spirits.


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## Persephone (Nov 4, 2003)

Well, I do believe your etymology of the word is correct however, it's use has been severely changed over the years. The Philippines was a Spanish colony before, and thus many of our words are spanish or even latin in origin. But you know how it is, we take one word and through time, it evolves into many things. The same applies to that word, Maligno here means powerful spirit beings that dwell in forests, mountains, and even the sea. Again, just like the elves. They are kind but dangerous when angered. Beautiful and wise. But to our people here they call them fairies. So I was thinking that maybe it was a misconception of some sort.

Your post got me interested in other mythologies. You must be such a wide reader. I admire people who are like you, jallan. Do share more of your thoughts.


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## jallan (Nov 4, 2003)

So, Narya, _Maligno_, if I understand you correctly, has been so naturalized into Tagalog in the sense of a supernatural wight that its original Spanish meaning is forgotten.

I would guess that Spanish missionaries might have proclaimed that almost any spirits believed in by natives of the islands must be _maligno_ ‘malign’, and this term migh then be taken over from the missionaries as a more learned and more proper Christian term for these spirits without realizing its drepecatory import or its dreprecatory import might be gradually forgotten.

Or is there another explanation?

There is a similar case in Denmark. _Troll_ which seems to have meant monster in the earliest Scandinavian use has come in Danish folklore (in the form _trold_) to refer usually to a kind of good little people who would in some other other places by called _elves_. The same is true in Shetland where the form has become _trowe_.

Are there perhaps some other terms in Tagalog other than _Maligno_ that could be used?

_Fairies_ was of course the general literary name for all such spirit folk in modern English but became rather spoilt in the twentieth century by the added metaphorical meanings _effeminate_ and _homosexual_.

That may have been one reason why Tolkien generally avoided the term. 

Another reason is probably that it is not of native English origin, being originally an adjective meaning ‘pertaining to _Fays_’. _Fays_, more properly _fées_, come from French where the word refers to mysterious women with powers of enchantment, presumably in origin something like the Greek nymphs. The word itself goes back to Latin _fata_ ‘fate’, perhaps referring to the Three Fates, goddesses who control destiny, or to various supernatural beings of like kind.

In French fairy tales enchantresses or fairies have a tendency to appear at christenings and bestow magical blessings and curses.

Supernatural male figures appear in medieval French tales also, including Auberon/Oberon the king of Féerie in the medieval romance _Huon of Bordeaux_. But there is no word that classifies them. _Fées_ is unassailably female and has no masculine form.

But words like _elf_, _fairy_, _pucca_, _goblin_, _hob_ and many others overlap each other and the actual little men or other mysterious beings who apear in fairy tales and folklore traditions are often evade fitting into any exact classification.


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## Persephone (Nov 5, 2003)

Well there is another word that we use that again means the same thing as Maligno. The word is _Engkanto _(male) and _Engkantada _(Female) Maligno is a general term and has no gender. But the meaning is the same.


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## jallan (Nov 6, 2003)

And _Engkanto_ is obviously also Spanish in origin, from _encanto_, ‘person of enchantment’.

It is certainly a nicer term, better perhaps used as the normal translation for _Elf_ if one were doing a translation of Tolkien’s fantasy into Tagalog.

But are there no surviving words of Tagalog origin for such beings?


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## Persephone (Nov 7, 2003)

Unfortunately no, those two words, Maligno and Engkanto are the only ones being used here. I think we can say that Sauron is a Maligno, and Galadriel is an Engkantada.

There is a very good story of one such _Engkantada_ that is a good read. If you can (and if you like) get a copy of it, it is the story of _*Maria Makiling*_. So you 'd have a good idea of what we mean by the word.


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## jallan (Nov 8, 2003)

I find different versions of the Maria Makiling story on the web.

At Maria Makiling she is daughter of a god and goddess named Dayat Makiling and Gat Panahon. It tells of her love for Gat Dulan, king of the kingdom of Bay, and how her parents prevented its consumation and so gods and humans first became separated.

At The Legend of Maria Makiling she is called a _diwata_ (a word of Sanskrit origin meaning and related to English _deity_). There she loves a common Philipino farmer named Juan, chosing him over two high-ranking Spanish suitors. The two rejected suitors bring about his death and revolution against the Spanish follows.

In a third version at The Mountain Called Makiling she is again called a _diwata_, glossed as _faerie_. Her lover is now named Mabuhay. The gods in anger turn Makiling into a mountain and Mabuhay drowns.

At Our Myths she is a goddess who withdraws her favors from humanity because her mortal lover proves unfaithful.

The version at Mariang Makiling is similar, but here it is Makiling who breaks off the relationship on her own and frees her lover to take a mortal wife.

The common denominator in all these is that of a union between mortal and immortal which fails in the end. This is a very common motif worldwide. Rarely are such liasons presented as successful.

Tolkien was odd in that he introduced three successful marriages of mortal and immortal.

More normal in folklore and literature are accounts like Tolkien’s sketchy story of the Elven woman Mithrellas from whom the princes of Dol Amroth claimed descent.

Of course Beren does actually die. He is brought back to life, but is never seen by mortal men again as though this new life is not the same as normal mortal existence.

And Arwen withdraws from mortal society after Aragorn passes away.


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## Persephone (Nov 9, 2003)

WOW!!! What a thorough research! I am really impressed!

I didn't know Maria Makiling had so many versions. 

HOwever, the version I am well acquainted with is The version at Mariang Makiling where it is Makiling who breaks off the relationship on her own and frees her lover to take a mortal wife.


I believe that there she is described as a diwata [fairy].


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## jallan (Nov 15, 2003)

One expects to find different versions of a legend but the Makiling tradition seems extraordinarily divergent.


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## Persephone (Nov 17, 2003)

You should see pictures of her, really elven like. Beautiful, wise, and with pointy ears too.

Another good story will be "Biag ni Lam-Ang" here there are characters that resemble other Tolkien Characters. Like a giant eagle, and others.

We also have local versions of trolls, and giants, and even were-wolves.

What about with the others, from other foreign lands, what other stories do you have that are Tolkien-inspired, or even Tolkien-like???


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## Amarië (Nov 17, 2003)

Well I live about 15 minutes away from Birmingham, where Tolkien lived and it is thought that he based Mordor on there as it became increasingly industrialised... That's all I can think of!
~A~


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## Persephone (Nov 24, 2003)

Does it look like Mordor, Amarie? It must be spooky.

I also had a friend, who claims to have a third eye, and can see other beings. She said that when she saw the movie, the orcs really reminded her of what we call here as Dwende (which is supposed to be dwarf(???) and there is no other translation of that).

secondly, we also call elves here as dwende, but they are classified as good dwende's. Like the elves who helped the shoe-maker.

ARe there other cultures out there that are as bizarrely Tolkienish as ours??


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## jallan (Nov 25, 2003)

Narya posted:


> Are there other cultures out there that are as bizarrely Tolkienish as ours??


Tolkien based his legendarium mostly on European traditions and legends, especially those of northen Europe and Britain.

Yet similar traditions are found throughout the world, though hunting and gathering cultures more often talk of animals that change into human form and back again.

As you point out, creatures like _dwendes_ are seemingly not innately physical though in tales they may appear in physical forms. However that Tolkien’s Dwarves, Elves and Orcs/Goblins and such are innately physical beings, at least in the first three Ages.

I note that the name is Spanish in origin, apparently originally meaing ‘lord’. From duende:


> NOUN: &#160 ; The ability to attract others through personal magnetism and charm.
> 
> ETYMOLOGY:   Spanish dialectical, charm, from Spanish, ghost, from Old Spanish, owner, proprietor, from _duen de (casa)_, lord of (a house) : _duen_, lord (from Latin dominus;


There is some more information at What is Duende? where _duende_ is translated as _goblin_, _(evil) spirit_, _demon_.

_Dwende_ really doesn’t match for a Tolkien Dwarf, but then as Tolkien himself noted, his Dwarves are not quite the same as those in the Norse Eddas in any case.

But _Dwende_ does match closely with various spooky little fok in other folk traditions.


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## Persephone (Nov 25, 2003)

I am slowly falling in love with your research capabilities jallan. It's just overwhelming that you are able to dig up so much information about such things.

Yes, that latter description of our word Dwende is impeccably accurate.

People I know, have seen them, and they are not apparitions, but physical beings that can actually hurt people or help people.

There is also mentioned of small flying creatures usually female in appearance. We call them diwata. But Diwata also means goddess. 

I wanna read a book on Norse Methology. Got any suggestions?


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## jallan (Nov 29, 2003)

Narya posted:


> People I know, have seen them, and they are not apparitions, but physical beings that can actually hurt people or help people.


Quite likely. The Fairy Folk of Europe also appear as physical beings in traditions, sometimes marrying humans, yet are confused with the dead and with various kinds of demons. Poltergeists, by defintition, make noises and move objects. In earlier texts they are sometimes called goblins.

Such beings seem to be imagined as normally invisible and perhaps normally intangible but able at times to take visible and tangible forms or as dwelling normally in another world parallel to ours but able to cross over.

Of course there is no consistancy in such tales.


> I wanna read a book on Norse Mythology. Got any suggestions?


I recommend reading the originals:
The Prose Edda. This account by Snorri Sturluson, written about 1200, contains (within a rationalized Christian framework) almost everything that has survived.

The Volsunga Saga. The most famous legendary heroic cycle. It is a bit confusing because it is based on various independent poems and in some parts the unknown author mixes different versions together.

The Tale of Hogni and Hedinn.

The Poetic Edda. A translation of all the known surviving traditional mythological and legendary Norse poems, most of which were sources for the contents of the first two works listed above.
That's about all that is available on the net, but other translations are available in bookstores and libraries.

If you want a modern retelling, then _Norse Myths_ by Kevin Crossley-Holland is as good as anything. This same book also appears under the title _The Penguin Book of Norse Myths: Gods of the Vikings_.


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## Lhunithiliel (Nov 30, 2003)

But don't worry, Walt!
You TOO have gained the admiration of people "_slowly falling in love with your research capabilities_"  

Othr stories...

I, some time ago, had this somewhere posted, but it's seems to fit in here as well:

_*Dragons*_

In our folklore there are tales of dragons. 
They are featured in two different types - flying and not-flying.
But they have the same features:

>> malicious and greedy for treasures
>> hating people (unlike in the tales of the Far East  ) and bringing disaster to the lands they live in
>> "chasing" poor little princesses and other local beauties
>> clever and cunning
>> hunted and often killed by valiant princes or just by a hero

One of the tales runs about a dragon that kept a golden apple-tree in the underworld. BTW this underworld is described there as a fair and beautiful place - space, light, sun, vast planes... So, there were three brothers ... 
Oh! But the story has nothing similar to any of Tolkien's ones. The key is the dragon himself. He was very cunning and tried to deceive those valiants in their attempts to save three beautiful princesses. The one who outwit the dragon got the most beautiful and the wisest of the ladies....

Dragons!

They are present in the tales of so many peoples! 
But you know... I somehow can't remember a dragon-tale in the peoples of the Americas!  

Why would there be dragons in the folklore of Europe and Asia and none in the Americas?
Any thoughts?


BTW, a VERY INTERESTING topic!


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## jallan (Nov 30, 2003)

Walter posted:


> But nowadays, even if you don't have such ressources as above and don't possess a private library at home, the internet provides you with a wast amount of information, but - in most cases - the problem is to separate the wheat from the chaff.


Exactly.

Walter’s subsequent example of how one might track down information about _dwende_ is indeed almost exactly what I did. The spark of genius is knowing enough to use Google, that incomparable search engine of all search engines and in knowing how to use it. Though I vaguely remembered the Spanish word _duende_ and I would have searched on it in any case, a search in Google on [dwende etymology] brought up a link connecting the two forms.

Lhunithiel posted:


> But you know... I somehow can't remember a dragon-tale in the peoples of the Americas!


This one I know the answer to without much searching.

From letter 122:


> But the whole problem of the intrusion of the ‘dragon’ into northern imagination and its transformation there is one I do not know enough about.


What Tolkien is probably talking about here is the extent to which a particular monster called a dragon with legs and claws and breathing fire and sometimes with wings appears especially in northern European folklore and medieval European literature. I don’t know any more than Tolkien did about exactly how this occurred.

Greek _drakon_, Latin _draco_ are often translated in English as ‘dragon’ and Latin _draco_ is the origin of the English word _dragon_. But in fact these words mean simply ‘large serpent’, referring particularly, if to anything real, to the kind of serpent we now call a _python_. _Python_ is in origin the proper name in some versions of the particular _drakon_ killed by Apollo at Delphi.

Of course Greek monster _drakon_s sometimes breath fire. But so do the bronze bulls that Jason must harnass in the tale of the Golden Fleece. No creature called a _drakon_ in Greek mythology and legend is described as having feet.

Roman ‘dragon standards’ were simply metal heads with open mouths and attached wind socks. See the last pictures in Imperial Standards and the Sarmatian cavalyman at Chester City Council - Roman Artefacts. We could better translate these into English as ‘snake standards’. Translating either Latin _draco_ or Greek _drakon_ as ‘dragon’ rather than ‘snake, serpent’ is likely to create an incorrect image to a modern reader.

Where Greek story tellers seemed to like various different kinds of monsters, e.g. a Gorgon, a Chimaera, a Sphinx, Stymphalian birds, Harpies, Scylla, Cyclopses and so forth, medieval Europe tended to prefer either lizard-like dragons or standard giants. Tolkien uses the European conventions as he finds them.

Medieval Europeans seemed to like imagining exotic serpents with feet and wings. Knowledge of the crocodile may have encouraged this as far as feet are concerned.

In The Aberdeen Bestiary - Folio 66r, we see in the illustration that the _draco_ has been provided with legs and wings not mentioned in the text. The text is obviously describing a python though with some exageration. Pythons normally do not go after elephants, even baby elephants.

On the following pages, as can be seen on this site, almost all the serpents described are shown with legs and wings in the illustrations though no mention of these are made in the text. Many of these serpents are quite identifiable by name or description, even the two-headed ‘anphivena’ at Aberdeen Bestiary - Folio 68v. Amphisbaenas are actually a kind of legless lizard with a short tail marked and shaped so that it resembles the head.

The addition of legs and wings to snakes in illustration is found in other bestiary manuscripts, for example in the manuscript used for the text and illustrations in T.H. White’s The Book of Beasts.

Accordingly, part of the answer is that the European dragon is a folklore creation of Europeans and we shouldn’t expect to find _exactly_ that kind of creature elsewhere.

The other part of the answer is that generic monsters of various kinds, but very often serpentine, are found in tales world wide, including native American traditions. Whether or not they are called _dragons_ in an English rendering of such tales depends on how the translator or reteller feels about it.

See: 
Famous Dragons - North Amerca.

Famous Dragons - South America.

Kwatee.

Joanne Shenandoah and search for “one silver one gold” which will bring you to lyrics and a short sound clip from a song about the slaying of two giant serpents.

The Uktena.
Monsters appear in tales worldwide. Fear of serpents seems to be an innate human phobia though it must be triggered early in life. Accordingly it is not suprising that monsters tend to be serpentine.


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## jallan (Dec 1, 2003)

Walter posted:


> Tolkien, IIRC, traces the history of dragons in northern tales back to 2 (resp. 3) origins: Fáfnir - the dragon of the Völsungs, the Beowulf dragon, and - with certain limitations - the midgardserpent.


Tolkien mentions the first two but does not pretend to trace any origins.

There are various other giant serpents/dragons/worms that appear in other Icelandic sagas as well as in Saxo Grammaticus’ Danish History and in saint legends and in French medieval romances. Descriptions of the creatures in these sources are often vague.


> They are found almost everywhere, in Mesopotamian, Egyptian, Chinese, Kanaanite, Australian myths and probably in many more.


Yes.

The slaying of a reptilian/serpentine monster or composite monster or giant or something similar to these is indeed found everywhere. Such monsters tend to interchange with each as stories evolve.

The first part of the _Beowulf_ tale is a variant of the same tale which appears in the Babylonian _Enuma Elish_ and others places, where first a male monster is slain and then his female mother/nurse/consort. The motif of noise enraging the monsters appears both in _Beowulf_ and _Enuma Elish_. The bulding of a temple or mound (or universe) on the body or of the body of the monster is a normal part of this tale. In _Beowulf_ the building of the hall is placed at the beginning of the tale rather than at the end and the song of creation in _Beowulf_ may be in part a memory that in some versions this tale was part of a creation myth.

The versions seem to fall into two types, one in which one hero defeats both monsters and one in which the son of the hero who defeats the first monster is reponsible for the defeat of the second female monster.

The Greeks appear to know both versions and accordingly sometimes the serpent slain by Apollo is female and sometimes male. The Homeric Hymn to Apollo attempts to combine the two versions. Typhaon/Typhoeus is mentioned prominantly, known elsewhere as a monster defeated by Zeus. Now Apollo the son of Zeus must overcome Typhaon’s foster-mother, the serpent Delphyne (who here is almost a stand-in for Hera).

Yet one sees combined with this a version in whch the serpent was male and the female monster is Telphusa whom Apollo defeats in a second one-sided combat. Telphusa like the Babylonian Tiamet and Grendel in _Beowulf_ can’t abide disturbance.

That the monsters are sometimes in human form and sometimes serpentine and sometimes ambiguous in form is a typical change.


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