# The power of Isildur's curse



## Snaga (Feb 20, 2006)

How is it that Isildur, a mortal man, can curse an entire people so that they are doomed to walk the world as shades?

Does he use some power that he has within him? If so, are there any parallels?

Does he use some mysterious power of the Stone of Erech?

Or does he, perhaps, curse them after he gains the One Ring? Is it the power of the Ring?

Or some other explanation?

I like the idea that it could be the One Ring....


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## Maeglin (Feb 20, 2006)

I've always just assumed that it was using the power of the Stone of Erech, as that is where the army of the dead really joined Aragorn and helped him. It can't be using the power of the One Ring, as you suppose, because Isildur didn't have the Ring yet....that didn't happen until after he had defeated Mordor, which the dead (then living) had failed to fulfill their oath and assist with.


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## Valandil (Feb 20, 2006)

I didn't vote in the poll because I think there was more than one answer, and this poll only allowed one response. Here's what I think contributed:

1. Isildur himself - and not by being Isildur, but by being their rightful acknowledged king. This works with the next one...

2. The power of an Oath - especially when sworn to a figure in authority over one.

3. I strongly suspect the Stone of Erech played a part. We know that it appeared to be a globe of more than 6' in radius (probably 6'-4' +/- as this was "man-high" to the Numenoreans) - but that could be taken as a loose figure. We also know that Isildur brought it up the road to that place, all the way from the coast - and that he brought it with him from Numenor. I have no evidence for it (except that it was black - and we know this mountain was black, IIRC), but I like to suppose that it came from the Meneltarma - and had been a part of it - the Hallowed Mountain of Numenor.


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## Thorondor_ (Feb 21, 2006)

I don't think it takes something special to make a powerful curse; after all, even Mim the dwarf's curse was pretty powerful.


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## Noldor_returned (Feb 21, 2006)

I went Stone of Erech, because Tolkien wouldn'tve mentioned it otherwise.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Feb 21, 2006)

may I ask a question thats probly kinda sorta stupid kinda sorta been bugging me?  

Now, I read LOTR like 6 times, and I do recall every time reading about The Stone of Erech and all, but i was jsut wondering, whats the history of it, where did it come from? who placed it there and all? I'm just a curious little elf


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## Noldor_returned (Feb 21, 2006)

It just appeared there one day, and Eru Illuvatar was like, "what the hey? Who's placing Stones in my land!" So along comes Isildur and goes, "leave it there and I'll use it for something useful. I swear!"


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## HLGStrider (Feb 21, 2006)

> 2. The power of an Oath - especially when sworn to a figure in authority over one.


 
I'll go with this one. It makes the most sense. A broken vow, treachery, all pretty damning in Tolkien's world. I don't think it was the ring. The ring tends to be a power for mainly evil and this was what I would consider a cruel but good curse, harsh but very effective.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Feb 21, 2006)

Snaga said:


> How is it that Isildur, a mortal man, can curse an entire people so that they are doomed to walk the world as shades?



Because that's how Tolkien wrote it. **ducks and runs**

Barley


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## Valandil (Feb 21, 2006)

HLGStrider said:


> I'll go with this one. It makes the most sense. A broken vow, treachery, all pretty damning in Tolkien's world. I don't think it was the ring. The ring tends to be a power for mainly evil and this was what I would consider a cruel but good curse, harsh but very effective.



Besides - Isildur would not have had the Ring - either when the Oath was sworn, nor when it was broken.


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## Noldor_returned (Feb 21, 2006)

Barliman Butterbur said:


> Because that's how Tolkien wrote it. **ducks and runs**
> 
> Barley


 
No need to duck and run, I agree with you.


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## Withywindle (Feb 22, 2006)

We know from other tales that the breaking of oaths in Middle Earth is taken very seriously and it seems that, for the oath to be binding, the following are sufficient: 

that it be taken in absolute earnest
that some power or authority be named in witness (see Feanor´s oath)
possibly that some sort of physical talisman of importance be involved (the Ring in Gollum´s oath, Erech).
Once taken it must be fulfilled or the consequences, named in the original tryst, will pursue the oathbreaker ever after.

Therefore, that the men of the Haunted Mountain should have been utterly cursed because of their oathbreaking is not strange; what is remarkeble is that the curse was so strong it broke the basic rules of Arda. Basically, it withheld the Gift of Iluvitar from an entire people indefinitely - something beyond even the power of Mandos himself. 

I think no power in Isildur or Erech or anywhere in Arda could have brought down such a curse. Only the intervention of Eru himself can explain it. I conjecture that Iluvitar was named in witness to the oath (Feanor also named Iluvitar) and I´m sure many other minor oaths also did with far less drastic consequences. The difference here was the motive behind the oath: it was not self-serving as was Feanor´s, nor a petty promise of feudal duty, but to fight against Sauron who had, after all, just forced Iluvitar to intervene in Arda, destorying Numenor and millions of lives - Iluvitar must have been very intent on events on Middle Earth and in seeing that Sauron was punished.
Thus the noble motive of the oath, and the invocation of Eru on a matter which was of the utmost interest to Him at that time may perhaps explain such a dreadful curse, the gravitas of Isildur and the symbolic importance of Erech only contributed to sealing the earnestness of the oath.


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## Ingwë (Mar 27, 2006)

I don’t think that Isildur has specific power to curse that Men, I don’t think it is the power of the Stone of Reecho. 
I think we mustn’t forget that Arda is a world of wizards and elves, dwarves and orc – a world of magic. And in this world the power of the words is something great. Just a few word and… boom… the cursed walk the world as shades… 
In the World of J R R Tolkien a few words are enough. And if someone breaks the oath he may be cursed. I think the curse effects only if there is a good reason for it. I mean Mr. X cannot curse Mr. Y because he wants him to be cursed. In that case I guess that the curse would return to Mr. X. In addition, Thorondor already mentioned that Mim’s curse was powerful. 
And if we want to find the message of that chapter… I think that Tolkien says that we mustn’t break our oath. And we must not promise something we can’t do. Tolkien was a Christian, and as a Christian I think he believed that the curse, even in our world, have some power. However, the Earth is not a world of magic but Tolkien represents his vision in The Lord of The Rings.


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## Noldor_returned (Mar 28, 2006)

I don't think this curse is all that different to Feanor's oath. Both were said, yet were powerful. In fact, I think in the Silmarillion searly on it says something like that. Yes, here we go, I found it:
in the Silmarillion:


> "...For so sworn, good or evil, an oath may not be broken, and it shall pursueoathkeepr and oathbreaker to the world's end..."


I only just read that, so luckily it managed to stick in my mind. But back to the topic. I don't think an oath or curse is all that different, especially as Isildur's curse seems to have trapped the Dead from leaving to go to the Halls of Mandos. Why should there be any difference between an oath and curse anyway?

I know this is the opposite of what I said before, but I changed my mind. After all, I'm entitiled to my opinion.


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## Halasían (Mar 30, 2006)

The power of an oath broken allowed Isildur to curse them wth punishment.
But it was the actual breaking of the oath that had the power. Aragorn addressed them as 'oathbreakers', not 'the cursed of Isildur'.


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## Noldor_returned (Mar 31, 2006)

Yes, although I think if he had died, they still would have been cursed, because they broke the oath, which appears to be fatal in Middle-Earth.


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## HLGStrider (Mar 31, 2006)

Or in their case nastily un-fatal. . .


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## Snaga (Mar 31, 2006)

Interesting debate and contributions. I agree that it was something to do with the act of swearing an oath, and the breaking of that oath. Thanks to the mod who added that choice: I ended up voting for it even though it wasn't on my original poll! The parallel with the sons of Feanor is interesting. That oath was not time-limited, and the sons of Feanor are not mortals: so while the oath could rest for a time, in the end they were forced to act on it. I always felt that Maedhros in particular was tortured by it, and didn't want to follow through with consequences of his oath, but was compelled to. In the case of those cursed by Isildur, they were mortal but could not sleep until their oath was fulfilled. But they 'missed their chance' ... and had to wait for another chance. Unluckily for them, this took 3000 years!

I need to re-read carefully the story of Mim's curse to see how it fits with the pattern. Unless some other eager scholar can help?


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## baragund (Apr 6, 2006)

For the sake of the poll, I voted for the inherent power of an oath.

Oaths are a BIG deal in Tolkien's world. They are absolutely unbreakable and even bad guys are held to them. They are not made lightly. As I'm writing this, I'm trying to think of an instance where somebody broak an oath and got away with it. I can't think of any.

I'm thinking the dead guys were put in their predicament by their failure to meet their own oath more than anything that Isildur did.


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## Arvedui (Apr 7, 2006)

Snaga said:


> I need to re-read carefully the story of Mim's curse to see how it fits with the pattern. Unless some other eager scholar can help?


There was no oath included in the curse of Mîm, so I am afraid that it doesn't quite fit in with the pattern. Mîm cursed Andróg after having slain his son, saying:


Unfinished Tales said:


> he that loosed the shaft shall break his bow and his arrows and lay them at my son's feet; and he shall never take arrow nor bear bow again. If he does, he shall die by it. That curse I lay on him.


As what goes for the power of curses and oath in general, I think that there isn't much to add that hasn't already been stated.


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## Noldor_returned (Apr 11, 2006)

There's another curse type thing in the Sil, when Eol curses Maedhros and says may he die on the rock into the ocean thing. I can't remember the outcome of that though.


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## Arvedui (Apr 18, 2006)

I don't quite follow you on that one. As far as I recall, Eöl never met Maedhros. Can it be that you are thinking of Maeglin?
These are the words of Eöl to Maeglin just before he was cast over the Caragdûr:


> So you forsake your father and his kin, illgotten son! Here shall you fail of all your hopes, and here may you yet die the same death as I.


And during the Ruin of Gondolin:


> Tuor fought with Maeglin on the walls, and cast him far out, and his body as it fell smote the rocky slopes of Amon Gwareth thrice ere it pitched into the flames below.


So the outcome was more or less as the curse predicted.


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## Noldor_returned (Apr 18, 2006)

Yeah I meant Maeglin. And re-reading Sil, I came across several other curses and oaths, most of which are fairly small but do work strongly.


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