# Would Beren succeed without Luthien?



## Lhunithiliel (Oct 21, 2003)

The question tells it all.
It actually came out from the discussion about Thingol's challenege to Beren, sending him on the quest for the Silmarilli.

So.... wht do you think?

Would he ever succeed in his quest without the help of Luthien?


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## Confusticated (Oct 21, 2003)

I do not see how he could have escaped from Tol-in-Gaurhoth, but that does not mean there was no way. _Anything_ could have happened.

If he did so, I believe he'd have made his way to Angband and been taken captive to Morgoth. Rumors of his daring deeds were heard even in Doriath, and Morgoth sought him no less than Fingon who was High King at the time. I think he would be tormented and questioned, and unless he could slay or very seriously wound Morgoth (I believe it is possable) then he would get no silmaril. 

I think it is not impossible.


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## Starflower (Oct 22, 2003)

I think no
How would he have taken the Silmaril from the crown of Morgoth? How would he even have made it that far into Angband? It was Luthien who sang Morgoth to sleep, it was her who changed their appearance so that they could gain entrance to Angband.


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## Ithrynluin (Oct 22, 2003)

Lúthien was the most important person to the Quest of the Silmaril, Beren is quite replacable. There were others who could have made it to Morgoth's chamber with Beren (or instead of Beren), but none could have had such a bewildering effect on Morgoth and put an enchantment of sleep on him, as Lúthien did (save Melian perhaps).

Of course, we must not forget Huan either, who I think was also quite irreplacable, not perhaps to the extent of Tinuviel, but moreso than Beren.


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## Ai*Estel (Oct 22, 2003)

There's no way Beren could have gotten the Silmaril without Luthien. She's the one that put Morgoth into an inchanted sleep, so Beren could get the Silmaril out of the crown. 

How could a mortal man wound or get rid of Morgoth long enough to get the silmaril and get back to Doriath?? OK, so Huan might have been able to help for some time, but you can only escape death so many times, Beren.....


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## Niniel (Oct 23, 2003)

He might have been able to do it, because his love for Lúthien would drive him to do things he might not be able to do otherwise. But it would be very hard and I don't really see how he could have done it.


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 23, 2003)

I don't think he would succeed.
Nom said some excellent thing.If he had had escape alone from Tol-in-Gaurhoth,he would not have had the chance even to reach Morgoth's hall.And even if had reached it alobne,wihtout Luthien's help,I doubt he would have managed to take any silmaril from Morgoth's crown.


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## Bucky (Oct 27, 2003)

Would Beren have suceeded without Luthien?

NO!

Would Beren have had to TRY to suceed without Luthien?

NO!


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## BlackCaptain (Oct 27, 2003)

The whole sublying plot of the Lay of Lethian is the bond between Man and Elf to acheive the goal that no other bond could. If there was no Luthien, Beren wouldn't have even gonen on the quest in the first place, let alone survived Tol-in-Gaurhoth, Thangorodrim, or have gotten into the depths of Utumno

However, he did survive those mountains of shadow... or wahtever they were before he got into Doriath, so that really shows his intestinal fortitude. But I think the quest of the Silmarili would be too big for any being in Arda, even Manwë


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## Inderjit S (Oct 28, 2003)

I think that the Quest wouldn't have succeeded without the contribution of several characters. Would Lúthien have succeeded without Beren? Would they have succeed without Huan or Finrod, or Thingol? No. The quest succeeded because of the people that were involved, take them out the equation and the Quest would have failed.


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 28, 2003)

hmhm....the truth is that Luthien and Beren succeeded thanks to the sacrifice of many people,Huan,Finrod and even Thingol(who "lost" his daughter).In my opinion the price was too big.


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## Confusticated (Oct 28, 2003)

Beren getting a silmaril was not the only thing bought. There was Earendil's voyage and the defeat of Morgoth which is worth more than Finrod's, or Haun's life. Or Luthien's immortality. 

Thingol asked for what he got. How about Melian and others losing Luthien?



> Would they have succeed without Huan or Finrod, or Thingol? No.



How can you be sure there was no other way?

If there had been some fluke and Tuor had died on his way to Gondolin, would nothing have stopped Morgoth? Would that just be the end of all hope?


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 28, 2003)

O yeah,I forgot Melian!I'm sorry Nom,you are right,Melian probably suffered her greatest sorrow,losing Luthien.


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## Inderjit S (Oct 28, 2003)

> How can you be sure there was no other way?



I am talking about it in context of the story itself, not some pseudo storyline that hasn't come into existence. In the tale Beren and Lúthien wouldn't have succeeded without the help of Finrod or Huan, or the instigator Thingol. 

If there was another way then maybe Finrod and Huan wouldn't be needed, but in this 'version' they are needed for the development of the plot and success of the quest.


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## Orodreth (Nov 3, 2003)

SMACK!

How dare you utter such a speculation?!

The story is an enbodyment of their love, and without their affection, it would not exist. After all, it was called the Lay of LUTHIEN!


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## Gil-Galad (Nov 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Orodreth _
> *SMACK!
> 
> How dare you utter such a speculation?!
> ...


No,I think you overestimate what Luthien did.Yes,she did a lot,saving Beren,defeating Sauron,stealing a silmaril from Morgoth's crown.But you should not forget the help their received from Finrod,Huan, and partly from Thingol.


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## Confusticated (Nov 3, 2003)

I have taken the question to assume that the love of Beren and Luthien exists, but she just isn't able to go help him.


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## Gil-Galad (Nov 3, 2003)

I think you are right Nom,only the power of love was not enough to succeed.No matter how strong it was ,it had some limits,and they needed some help.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Aug 12, 2022)




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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 12, 2022)

Alright. Now that this thread has risen, I am going to question this once more:

Would Beren have been able to take the Silmaril without Luthien's aid?

When I think about this, two things arise:

* NO*

Because Beren was a mortal man 
Because Luthien put the spell on Morgoth
Because Huan the Hound helped Luthien, and may not have been there for Beren
Because Luthien healed Beren, and without her, he may have died.
Many other reasons could be listed (obviously)
And *YES*

Because Beren's love for Luthien would drive him to do the impossible
Because Beren was a man of honesty and faithfulness, not wanting to betray Thingol
Because Melian, who knew of Beren's quest may have assisted
Because Morgoth feared the honor and pride of Beren
Again, obviously other reasons remain.

What are your thoughts?


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## Radaghast (Aug 12, 2022)

Beren absolutely had no chance without Lúthien and Huan, under any circumstances, unless the Valar themselves helped him.


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## Ealdwyn (Aug 12, 2022)

Beren would still be stuck in Saurons dungeons without Luthien. So that's a 'no' from me.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 12, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> Absolutely not a chance without Lúthien and Huan, under any circumstances, unless the Valar themselves helped him.


That is a good point to make, Radaghast. I don't think the Valar would have assisted-- but I suppose they might have. I don't know who, but for some reason my one thought is Orome. Indeed, if the Valar aided him, it would have changed many things- I should suppose.


Ealdwyn said:


> Beren would still be stuck in Saurons dungeons without Luthien. So that's a 'no' from me.


He may have theoretically escaped, right? He was a man of great strength and determination, and a man within whom sorrow turned swift to the fire of his wrath. Do you think perhaps the death of Finrod (Correct me if my names are wrong) would have drove him further into anger and fury against Morgoth and he may have leastways escaped?


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## Radaghast (Aug 12, 2022)

I wonder why this is even a question. It seems utterly absurd to me that it should even have ever come up. Tolkien wrote it the way that it happened. Why this need to reimagine it? Just seems like yet more second-guessing to me. Not only does it diminish Lúthien's significant role in the story, it diminishes Tolkien's breaking of the standard standard fairy tale mold of the "damsel in distress" to tiny little bits, as well the role of the princess meekly and passively waiting for her hand to be won by the dashing hero. Lúthien does not only smash this trope but her role in the story is significantly more important than Beren's and she rescues him at least twice, not just once.

Tolkien is often criticized heavily for not giving more roles to women and in truth there aren't very many in the legendarium. But the ones he did write should stand up and not be scrutinized. In Lúthien we have a very significant role written for a woman and yet there are some who want to consider her role optional 

Of course, B & L could not have succeeded without Huan.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 12, 2022)

I can promise you that this was simply an inquiry that arose in my mind. A 'what-if' or 'would it be possible' kind of question. I adore the Tale of Beren and Luthien, and would not change a single thing about it but to make it last longer! It is not trying to reimagine anything. There is absolutely nothing I would change about this tale, or honestly any of The Silmarillion. I love the fact that Tolkien gave Luthien a stronger role than simply to play a 'damsel in distress', and more than anything I love that the innocence and melodies of Luthien is what brought forth her victory, not her fighting in armor with a sword. It is truly a beautiful aspect of the story. It was more a question of 'could it have been possible?' arisen by the pondering of whether Thingol asked of Beren an impossible quest, (for he did not expect nor permit his daughter to aid Beren) or if the quest would have been possible, even without her aid. I certainly think that any way it had happened, without Luthien to heal Beren and the Eagles to bear them to Gondolin, Beren would have died without question. I am more curious than anything of others opinions, honestly-- not trying to diminish the complex beauty of Tolkien's own literary masterpiece, and sorry that it came across that way.

I know that he is criticized for this, and I really don't see why. There is Luthien, Galadriel, Eowyn, all playing a very large and influential role in his books, not daunted by the fact that they are women. Both men and women are heroic in Tolkien's works, and so it is in reality. There is both good and Evil in all races, and in all groups. I would NOT consider Luthien's role optional. From the very beginning, nothing would drive Beren if not for his love with Luthien. Without her there would be no heroic deeds wrought in such way, and such a dark shame that may be. I am certainly not trying to scrutinize Luthien or declare her role as optional, and I offer my fondest apologies if it came across as such.

No, they couldn't have. Huan is a great role in that tale also, and without him, I don't think that Beren and Luthien would have succeeded.


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## Radaghast (Aug 12, 2022)

I wasn't singling you out, Elbereth (after all, you didn't originate the thread); I'm sorry if it came across that way. I was just wondering at the mindset behind such questions in general.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 12, 2022)

I see... Perhaps I saw your post a bit differently than was intended. I can understand your inquisition of such inquiries. I hope my post gave a bit of description as to why a question as such might be inquired.


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## Ealdwyn (Aug 13, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> He may have theoretically escaped, right?


Then why didn't he? I see no evidence in the text that he ccould have escaped without Luthien's help.


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## Gothmog (Aug 13, 2022)

The question is answered within the story of Beren and Luthien. When Beren left Menegroth he well knew that there was no way he could succeed alone. So he traveled to find the most powerful help he could. He called upon the friendship of Finrod Felagund for aid, one of the most powerful of the Noldor in Middle-earth.


> thus befell the contest of Sauron and Felagund which is renowned. For Felagund strove with Sauron in songs of power, and the power of the King was very great; but Sauron had the mastery, as is told in the Lay of Leithian:


Felagund could not prevail against the Maia Sauron, Beren would have fared worse. How then could Beren hope to gain a Silmaril without help from one more powerful than Finrod son of Finarfin?


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## dcannon1977 (Aug 23, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> I can promise you that this was simply an inquiry that arose in my mind. A 'what-if' or 'would it be possible' kind of question. I adore the Tale of Beren and Luthien, and would not change a single thing about it but to make it last longer! It is not trying to reimagine anything. There is absolutely nothing I would change about this tale, or honestly any of The Silmarillion. I love the fact that Tolkien gave Luthien a stronger role than simply to play a 'damsel in distress', and more than anything I love that the innocence and melodies of Luthien is what brought forth her victory, not her fighting in armor with a sword. It is truly a beautiful aspect of the story. It was more a question of 'could it have been possible?' arisen by the pondering of whether Thingol asked of Beren an impossible quest, (for he did not expect nor permit his daughter to aid Beren) or if the quest would have been possible, even without her aid. I certainly think that any way it had happened, without Luthien to heal Beren and the Eagles to bear them to Gondolin, Beren would have died without question. I am more curious than anything of others opinions, honestly-- not trying to diminish the complex beauty of Tolkien's own literary masterpiece, and sorry that it came across that way.
> 
> I know that he is criticized for this, and I really don't see why. There is Luthien, Galadriel, Eowyn, all playing a very large and influential role in his books, not daunted by the fact that they are women. Both men and women are heroic in Tolkien's works, and so it is in reality. There is both good and Evil in all races, and in all groups. I would NOT consider Luthien's role optional. From the very beginning, nothing would drive Beren if not for his love with Luthien. Without her there would be no heroic deeds wrought in such way, and such a dark shame that may be. I am certainly not trying to scrutinize Luthien or declare her role as optional, and I offer my fondest apologies if it came across as such.
> 
> No, they couldn't have. Huan is a great role in that tale also, and without him, I don't think that Beren and Luthien would have succeeded.


Love your above statement! I'd just like to add/question/clarify: Are you saying that the story of Beren and Luthien was breaking the damsel in distress stereotype and is therefor perfect as a story ready for the new Amazon series? If so, i heartily agree! It's hard to find something so perfectly written that old or older that already has both hero and heroine making huge contributions and sacrifices for each other. It's usually one (the guy) going through hell and winning/saving the damsel and becoming the next king or something. WHY DON'T YOU TELL THAT STORY AMAZON!?


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## Radaghast (Aug 23, 2022)

Amazon doesn't have the rights to it.


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## Olorgando (Aug 24, 2022)

To the OP my answer is not a snowball's chance in Angband.
Beren's main role is to fall in love with Lúthien (as her father had been spell-bound by her mother Melian), and to manage to make Lúthien return his love.
After that, Huan is more important than Beren, taking down Draugluin (though considering Lúthien sent the far more formidable Carcharoth to dreamland she most likely would have been able to deal with Draugluin ... and come to think of it, since she made *Morgoth* and his whole damned (literally) court take a nap, Sauron should not present a problem either ...), almost destroying Sauron's bodily form (and in an earlier version mopping the floor with Sauron's predecessor Tevildo), and killing Carcharoth .
In his earlier (first, if Tom Shippey has gotten his external chronology right) version of the tale, JRRT gave it the appropriate name "The Tale of Tinúviel". What appeared later, and what Christopher put into the published "Silmarillion", would better have been titled "The Tale of Lúthien, Huan, and some very distant relative of Túrin's and Tuor's". 😁😎


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 24, 2022)




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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 28, 2022)

dcannon1977 said:


> Love your above statement! I'd just like to add/question/clarify: Are you saying that the story of Beren and Luthien was breaking the damsel in distress stereotype and is therefor perfect as a story ready for the new Amazon series? If so, i heartily agree! It's hard to find something so perfectly written that old or older that already has both hero and heroine making huge contributions and sacrifices for each other. It's usually one (the guy) going through hell and winning/saving the damsel and becoming the next king or something. WHY DON'T YOU TELL THAT STORY AMAZON!?


I don't think they have rights, and also the fact that Luthien's beautiful voice and glorious appearance is what means she utilizes in triumph. I'm not certain that fits the Galadriel in armor vision that has been brought forth. But I agree-- I would love a movie of


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