# Christian corner or Religious area



## BranMuffin

I would like to have all the religion focused questions to be in their own area. It would make it a lot easier to post when i don't have to search for hours for a particular thread, and I like the religious threads they get interesting. If this is made i would like a non-biased mod (or mods) to monitor it and keep peace and friendship between members.


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## Niniel

That might be a good idea, most of the religious threads are now in the GOP, but there is also one in the Time Lords (why???) and one in the 'Other guilds' section. One section would be better.


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## Idril

A Guild of Religon - that sounds fair, I mean we have got a guild for political discussion. Would all religons be welcomed there, including Paganism and Wicca, not just the conventional ones?


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## Aerin

For organizational purposes, a section devoted to such threads might be easier. However, it could very quickly turn into religion and belief bashing....
If such a section was to be made, there would absolutely have to have monitors who would keep flame wars from starting. BranMuffin's idea is a good one for that.


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## Gothmog

I agree with this idea. A seperate section to which all such threads can be posted. However, the major problem in this is selecting a Moderator for it. I do not say that there are no Moderators able to do so for I believe that most of the Mods are well able to deal with it, but religion like politics is a very touchy subject.

For this I would say that you would need at least three Mods involved to avoid problems. One of these I beleve should be our Super-Mod (or one of them if another is made up).

The reason that I suggest that there are Three is that some of the problems that arise in such threads can lead to accusataions of bias even when there is none present. I recall one occasion when Anc was accused of "Christian Bashing" and felt that he had to post personal information that he should not have had to simply to defend his stance on the thread.


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## Thorin

I proposed a Guild of Religion idea to a few mods months ago and it drew mixed reactions. It basically fell on the wayside and was not pursued by either myself or the mods. I basically said the same thing: there would have to be a Guild leader or two and a moderator in charge to make sure there is no bashing.


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## FoolOfATook

As someone who doesn't really follow the religious threads, I don't really have a dog in the proverbial fight, but I can tell you that I'm a bit ambivalent about the issue. I can see the advantages of such a Guild/Forum, especially since religion was such an important part of Tolkien's life, and to a lesser extant, a part of his work. However, I see the numerous potential problems that could arise, particularily among people who have an agenda regarding religion that goes beyond polite discussion and debate, and the resulting damage that could be caused to the overall emotional climate of the forum.

If the issue came before the C9, I can say that I'd only vote for it if I saw that a good plan was in place to closely moderate and run the guild/forum.


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## Beleg

> However, it could very quickly turn into religion and belief bashing....



That's the main reason why I am against such a Guild.


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## Estrella

Beleg, and anyone else who fears that a religion section may turn into a bashing session. I frequently talk on the religion threads, and you'd be surprised at how calm everyone is. It is understood that religion is a blow torch, and therefore 98% of the people make an honest and mostly successful effort to not bash, and keep to facts, figures, and direct quotes. However i think that a mod or two would be a good idea.


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## Bethelarien

I agree with Estrella. As a member of a highly controversial church, I know how important it is to not take offense at people's comments. It is just as important to be open-minded and try not to say anything offensive. I think that those who participate on this message board are mature enough to handle something like this.

With the supervision of some mods, of course.


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## Elendil3119

I think this is actually a pretty good idea. It could be a way to channel all the religious threads that pop up around here.  Contrary to popular opinion, most religious people ARE able to hold discussions in a calm and civilized manner.


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## BranMuffin

I agree with mostly everyone here and thats why I proposed this idea. Browsing through the religious threads I've found that at times things seem to get heated up, but then are quickly calmed down. Most of the "arguments" come from misunderstanding, as long as posters present their message clearly(not easy in some cases) or correct misunderstandings politely, we shouldn't have much of a problem. And as I stated there would be the need of a couple mods to keep peace IF things get out of hand.


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## BranMuffin

> _Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow _
> *That's the main reason why I am against such a Guild. *



Most people do not know enough about other religions to rightfully bash them. Its my belief not to bash any religions and I feel the enviroment and mentality of posters is almost always above religion and belief bashing. Hopefully that will be the mood of this guild or whatever it gets turned into. This would be a good opportunity to learn from each other and gain more insight into where people may be coming from.


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## Estrella

I just have a question. What kind of purpose would a religion guild Serve? I mean, what goals would it acomplish, and how would it make TTF better?


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## FREEDOM!

I kinda like the idea.

I can keep an open mind, would you mind if I were one of the mods that moderated this guild?


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## Khamul

Maybe even private forums that can only be viewed by people of a certain faith to share? That may sound a little extreme, but it would resolve the issue of flaming, since different religions would have different invisible forums to anyone except those who practice that belief and the mods. 

Since that's probably not a probability, I would recommend that each religion just stick to your own thread. Many times, people, when confronted, just turn away and sometimes respond harshly. In the religious aspect, anything negative about a religion is considered a personal insult by all who are involved in that religion. It is good to witness for your faith, but people may not want to hear it, and you must realize that.


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## Estrella

Khamul, that is precisely why we need a forum to openly discuss all religions. If we seperate them, then it will just cause trouble, and all the different groups will start attacking each other.. it'll be Mayham. I'm not saying there can't be threads dicussing only one religion, but don't limit it too just one per thread.


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## Idril

Then again, this is a forum to discuss Tolkien's work in the first instance and 'other things' secondly. Do forums not exist which relate to religion? Religion has caused more wars in this world than anything else. 

My concern is, if I start a thread on the virtues of Wicca - I'd be lambasted (sp?) for promoting witchcraft and I'd have everyone trying to save my soul, or burn me at the stake!

Religion is a personal part of one's life and maybe should be kept there. Kamul said it really


> In the religious aspect, anything negative about a religion is considered a personal insult by all who are involved in that religion.



What will we have next - the 'Sexuality' thread?


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## Estrella

that wouldn't be too bad of an idea... hmm a sexuality thread. hehehehehe. But if you wanted to post a thread on Wicca, you should be able too. Didn't Tolkien stress Freedom of choice all through out the LOTR trilogy? If people want to discuss religion, then they should, and if they don't, they don't have too. Atleast this way, it would seperate those that do want to, from those that don't, therefore keeping the peace.


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## Beleg

My fear is not about about listening to people discussing religion. My fear is that people will get too overboard while discussing religion and talking about it. That would give way to counter arguements and things will get too heated. This has happened before and can happen again. Every religion thinks differently, and when one tries to explain one's religion, he often negates many points that are the soul of another religion. That gives rise to arguements that are not chaste and often desolve in verbal fights. This cannot be helped.


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## Niniel

I agree with Idril, this is a forum to discuss Tolkien and his work. It is not a religious forum. Of course people should be able to discuss religion here, if they really want to, as long as they keep an open mind and respect everybody's personal beliefs. It would be a good idea to have a separate section for religious dicussions, but it should be moderated very closely. If people really want in-depth discussion about religion they should visit a religious forum.


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## Walter

Not often has come any good out of the discussions about religion or politics. But quite a lot of harm for the forum did!

Hence I would rather support the idea to restrict religious or political discussions to those issues and topics, that are directly connected with Tolkien's works (which is still a lot).

Just my twopence..


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## Maedhros

> Hence I would rather support the idea to restrict religious or political discussions to those issues and topics, that are directly connected with Tolkien's works (which is still a lot).


Walter, are you suggesting that this IS a Tolkien Forum first and foremost? 


> If people really want in-depth discussion about religion they should visit a religious forum.


Funny but it is really that simple.


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## Ithrynluin

No offense to anyone, but there are enough religious threads as it is. As has been pointed out already there are many kinds of 'specialized' fora all over the internet, including religious ones and there you can discuss it to your heart's contect.


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## Walter

> _Originally posted by Maedhros _
> *Walter, are you suggesting that this IS a Tolkien Forum first and foremost?*


 Not sure ... I might be proven wrong...


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## tookish-girl

I'm in two minds about this....

On one hand, the Guild of Politics produced some bad arguments and left me feeling very disillusioned and made me want to stop visiting it (this was during the war with Iraq). All out fights seemed to break out sometimes and it wasn't pleasant, nor what this forum seems to be about. How much worse would it be for religion which people hold dearer than any political beliefs they have? 
Also, having read the "Jesus freaks" thread in S & B, it seems that people with any ideas that are different from someone else's does get Bible quotes thrown at them.

On the other hand, that thread has had some veery interesting issues raised, the discussion on the Gospel of Thomas for me in particular and I would actually love to know more about the Wiccan religion, just because I'm interested in Theology in general, so a guild would be good in that way.

In an nutshell, it'lll be fascinating as long as we all keep it clean!


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## Eriol

I would welcome it. Let's face it, religion threads are bound to appear. (I'm talking about non-Tolkien threads -- religion in association with Tolkien is dealt with in other Forums). Right now we have the Hell thread being moved from one place to the other, the Question on the bible at the Time Lords, the Evidence of God at the GoP, the Jesus Freaks at S&B... what would be the bad effects of having a place to hold these threads? Some of them have become heated, some have not. I think the moderators (poor guys) are quite efficient in handling and sometimes even preventing big fights. 

Religion is a subject that piques people's interest. It's not going to disappear because we don't have a section prepared for it. It would be easier, both for posters and moderators, if they were all in the same place.

Also, as Tookish has just said, many more people are interested in the threads than the actual posters. It would be a convenience for them, too.


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## Lúthien Séregon

I think having a "Guild of Religion" section is a good idea as long as there are at least a couple of unbiased moderators to make sure that things don't get too heated. 
Perhaps there could just be a temporary trial Guild with mods for about two weeks or so - if it works, it should stay a Guild amongst the other Guilds. If it doesn't, it could get taken away and all the threads put back into other guilds or discarded.


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## Ithrynluin

> _Originally posted by Lúthien Séregon _
> *I think having a "Guild of Religion" section is a good idea as long as there are at least a couple of unbiased moderators to make sure that things don't get too heated.
> *



I don't see how anyone can be unbiased with this topic. _Unfeeling_ would be nearer the mark...


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## Gothmog

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *I don't see how anyone can be unbiased with this topic. Unfeeling would be nearer the mark... *


 I find it somewhat disturbing that any one would think that the only way to retain sufficient detachment from such discussions so as to be able to Moderate such a section is to have no feelings.

I wonder then what this says about me?


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## Idril

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *I don't see how anyone can be unbiased with this topic. Unfeeling would be nearer the mark... *


I believe someone can be unbiased, without being unfeeling.

I'm a lasped RC and now class myself as atheist, but I grew up in multi-cultural country, surrounded by Islam and Hinduism and where most people celebrated Eid and Diwali as well as all the Christian religious festivals. In my household we also celebrate Chinese New Year. It's a great way of learning about another's religious beliefs and learning to live with it and accept them. I am pretty unfazed by religious arguements and discussions now - They all pretty much say the same thing, but with different window dressings. The only thing that gets to me is when others try to 'save' my soul

I think a Guild - like the GoP would help keep the various religious threads in one place, since many exist anyway - it would be easier to moderate, if they were all together.


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## Estrella

I know how to solve this little issue. A simple poll, ask rather people want a religious guild and/or religious section or not. Let the people decide. Just do something to take this past discussions, this is starting to drag out.


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## Beorn

> _Originally posted by Gothmog _
> *I find it somewhat disturbing that any one would think that the only way to retain sufficient detachment from such discussions so as to be able to Moderate such a section is to have no feelings.
> 
> I wonder then what this says about me? *



I think Ithrynluin was implying that it impossible to moderate a religious debate entirely unbiased....


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## Ithrynluin

Yes, that is what I was saying. Sorry for being unclear. No need to get upset, Gothmog. That's just my opinion.


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## Idril

> _Originally posted by Estrella _
> *I know how to solve this little issue. A simple poll, ask rather people want a religious guild and/or religious section or not. Let the people decide. Just do something to take this past discussions, this is starting to drag out. *



You need to PM the webmaster, with your suggestion - he has the final say on this matter. A poll will make no difference if he says 'no' on the matter.


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## Gothmog

ithrynluin, I am sorry that I seem to have misinterpreted your post. I respect your opinion and I agree that it is difficult for any person to be completely unbiased. It is for that very reason I suggested that if such a forum is set up there should be at least Three Mods working on it. Having more than one opinion and if needed a discusion between the Mods to avoid any bias causing problems.


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## Inderjit S

IMO, it will cause TOO many conflicts/problems Look at the 'Hell' thread as a example....


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## Gothmog

I have followed the "Hell" thread from the beginning. For the most part I have enjoyed the discussions on there.The Majority of the posters have given very good well thought out comments, questions and answers. Thorin has done a great job to keep it largely on topic. So I would say that this thread is one that argues for such a guild or forum rather than against.


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## Ancalagon

I would have to agree with Walter that any threads discussing religion should be confined to their relationship with The Lord of the Rings or any of Tolkiens work. Already there a number of threads that have become exclusively Christian and we even have a 'Guild of Christians' here in the forum. Personally I find this rather distasteful when this is supposed to be a non-sectarian forum. In most cases, religion threads inevitably end up being hijacked by Christians only too willing to show those who disagree 'the way, the light and the truth.' 

Personally I think this should be a all inclusive forum, whereby one particular religion should not be so prominent that anyone visiting thinks their own religion might be unwelcome.


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## Idril

Oh Ancalagon - we now have a Guild of Atheist! - thoughtfully setup for us by a Christian.


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## Estrella

i'm not too crazy about the idea of religous guilds myself, be it athiest, christian, Taoist, or satanist. ( or whatever else you can think of.) 
Ancalagon and walter, if you wish to have this forum discuss things pertaining only to Tolkien, the maybe we should crack down on the other non- tolkien threads, like the little polls about what we fear most, or lover vs. Fighter, ect. Will stop with just religion issues?
But getting back on subject, Ancalagon, i do agree with your idea of an all inclusive Forum. And Idril, i shall take your advice, surely the web master wil consider this seriously if many TTFers want a religious forum.


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## Idril

Hey, "Hands Off!" my, 'stop smoking' thread

edit: Estrella, used my thread as an example of a 'non Tolkien related' thread - she has removed the reference as she thought I was complaining Moi, complain? I'm explaining this so you guys don't think I'm going paranoid with the lack of nicotine, and posting off-topic out of frustration


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## Estrella

Sorry Idril. - stops tickling her thread- hehe


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## Thorin

> _Originally posted by Estrella _
> [BAncalagon and walter, if you wish to have this forum discuss things pertaining only to Tolkien, the maybe we should crack down on the other non- tolkien threads, like the little polls about what we fear most, or lover vs. Fighter, ect. Will stop with just religion issues?[/B]



I agree with Estrella, Ancalagon. If Christian threads are so distasteful that there should be a crackdown on them because they are not Tolkien, you can see hundreds of other posts and threads that are ten times more wasteful, off topic and foolish that are just as non-Tolkien. Crack down on them as well. 

If the WM and the mods would listen to me and pare this ridiculous number of forums and rooms that are in TTF, and carve them down to strictly 12 rooms (only one for off topic discussions) then the Christian threads and other off topic threads will not be a clutter or threat to the Tolkien sanctity of the forum. Not including the archives or Members rooms, we have about 24 rooms for off topic discussion (or rooms that were intended for Tolkien topic that is never used but for off topic posts; Bag End and the Inns for examples). 24!!! What the heck is the need for all that?

Book forums, movie forums, one off topic forum, one general Tolkien information knowledge and one members announcements rooms. That's it. That should be all we have. It would make the mods' jobs much easier.


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## Estrella

Thorin, maybe we should bring this issue to the C9. With a slightly reformatted format, TTF could run very smoothly ( I'm not saying that it's not smooth enought already) . However there are certain things, like the guild of writers, which are in the Grey areas, as it does not pertain directly to Tolkien, but that Tolkien would appreciate, and in a sense celebrates Tolkien. We may want to have a section soley for the arts as well. I ahve a feeling this will spawn a new thread...


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## Anamatar IV

One thing that I haven't seen brought up, is the aspect of debate in this religious area. Yes, I know it's always best to steer clear from heated debates and name calling but who's to say we should stay clear from debating topics in general? I mean if all that forum would be used for is prayer than heck no, I don't support it at all. But if there are good, sastisfying debates centered about religion there, why not? I think it's fun having a religious debate and I have been known to get into them via MSN.

Sorry if I'm rambling...too late right now, can't get my thoughts straight but what I'm saying is I'd like this forum simply for the possibility of interesting and thought provoking debate.


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## Nenya Evenstar

> Thorin, maybe we should bring this issue to the C9.


 You are more than welcome to bring it to the C9. If you'd like to get in touch with us, please PM one of the members.

I really do not think that a religious guild is a good idea. A good deal of online discussion forums do not even allow religious discussion period because they are never unbiased, they insult people, etc. If we decide to make a religious guild we are saying: Feel free to discuss religion here! Newbies will come in and will not know the proper "etiquette" and will run into many problems and arguments. 

I can almost guarantee you that Christians will not keep Bible quotes out of threads unless specifically asked, and maybe not even then. It somewhat goes against the Christian religion to do so.

All in all, I think you would be setting yourselves up for even more discussions, arguments, and insults than we have now.

This forum is for discussing Tolkien, not everything under the sun. I like the freedom that we are granted to be able to express our religious beliefs on this forum. However, there has been debate in the past whether or not this is even a good thing. I think it's fine to keep it as we have it: religious threads, and religion that corresponds with Tolkien's work. Otherwise, I think we'd be setting ourselves up for problems.


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## Estrella

I've got an honest question, with no intention of insult. How many of you claiming that a religious guild or forum would cause more insults have really looked at the religious threads? Not everyone is at each other's throats like you'd think. And there' s a difference in quoting the bible to prove a point, and quoting to " save a soul" I think that if the majority doesn't like how someone is acting, they will address that person, and stop it. And Arguements ( non-personal) are the nature of discussion, and therefore neccessary for a good debate, no matter what the subject, and personal arguements can arrise with any debate, not just religious. I have yet to see one personal arguement in the threads, or any name calling.


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## Niniel

I have seen a lot of religious debates, because I am interested in religious matters, but I have stopped checking them out because I have several times felt very uncomfortable or upset because people were trying to force their own opinions upon others without respect for other people's views. So I think the risk of religious discussions turning into shouting and name-calling is very real, and therefore a religious section should be very closely moderated, if there is to be one. And if it turns out to be impossible to have civilised discussions religious topics should be banned altogether.


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## Elendil3119

It bothers me that those of you who are against a GoR do not speak out against the GoP. There are very heated discussions in there, and often quite a bit of mud-slinging and name-calling. 

From the way I understand it, the GoR would simply be a place for people of all religions to hold discussions on various aspects of their faiths. Contrary to popular opinion, most of the forum members are mature enough to discuss religion without it becoming a religious war.


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## Nenya Evenstar

All religious threads I've participated in have at one time or another been closed because of heated arguments and insults (including the Prayer Request Thread). I don't have much faith that a religious guild would be any better . . . rather, I feel that it would be worse.


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## Niniel

I feel the same way about the GoP; I have felt upset about discussions there as well. Many people have the same heated feelings about their religious convictions as about their political ones, so the discussions turn into arguments just as easily. The GoP should be moderated just as closely as a religious section would have to be.


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## Nenya Evenstar

There is a difference between political discussions and religious discussions. Political opinions are, and always will be opinions. Religion differs in this area: those who advocate a certain religion believe their beliefs to be the Truth, making all other religions wrong (yes, there are some that advocate all religions having Truth in them etc.). You will very rarely get a person who believes a certain religion to say that their religion is a matter of opinion . . . for most people it is a matter of life and death. Politics are opinions. Religions are Truths. People should be able to discuss matters of political origin while respecting other people opinions, all the while knowing that their opponent may be right. When discussing religion, however, you will not have people advocating what they _think_ is right but what they _know_ is right. Religion is not an opinion for most people. Rather, it is a Truth.

Now, let me illustrate my main concern. People are saying that everyone should be mature enough to discuss religions without insulting each other. I agree, BUT. . . . Let me ask this: What is the main reason a Christian would visit the Guild of Religion? (I am using Christianity because I am a Christian and know the religion.) The main reason any Christian will visit the GoR will be to witness their religion to others. They will be trying be "the light of the earth." It's called the Great Commission. That's what Christians do.

So, whether you like it or not, Christians will NOT be there to discuss other religions. They will be there to be witnesses of their religion, and like it or not, they WILL be trying to save your soul. They will believe with all their hearts that, if you are not a Christian, that you are wrong and are going to die. They will be there for the one express purpose of witnessing to you to save your soul. They will not be open to accepting that your religion is a matter of opinion. They will believe that you are wrong. End of story. And I can guarantee that you will not be able to talk them out of it. I can only assume that most other religions are this way as well.

A religious forum will not be a place to hear other people's opinions and discuss them like they are opinions. Rather, it will be a place for people to attempt to convert other people to their religion (at least I know that Christians will do this). There is no way out of it because religion is not a matter of opinion to most people. It is what they believe to be Truth and, as I said earlier, a matter of life and death.

I see this as extremely dangerous and detrimental to the forum. People will be insulted by those who are trying to save their souls, and the animosity created by the GoR will seep into the other forums.

This is a place for discussing Tolkien. I see no need to expand and create a problem.


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## Eriol

*Respectfully disagreeing...*

I hate disagreeing. Especially with people I admire. 

But Christians are not supposed to shove their Scripture down other people's throats. The main weapon of the Christian is love. If the other person does not want to hear it, you don't tell him, for doing otherwise would be lacking in love. If the other person asks, then you tell him. In the meantime, you pray for him. At least that's what I do -- I'm a Christian, too. 

After all, only God can convert someone, it is not due to our efforts that people are converted. We are only one among many instruments used by God in that. 

Also, religious threads do not involve conversion only. Of course I want to save souls -- who doesn't? But this is not in my hands, really. So my own take on religious threads is to learn and perhaps to help other people learn. As much as in any other thread.

More to the point of the thread, we _have_ religious threads in the Forum. That's a fact. Putting them all in one place would not make them more vicious or pleasant -- according to the viewer -- than the present situation.

The alternative is really banning religious discussion, an alternative I would not enjoy, since I find the religion threads in this Forum enlightening and civilized, with almost non-existent fights. But that, of course, it only my opinion. 

As long as we have religious threads, to put them together at one place can do no harm. If they are really this vicious, we should ban them altogether. And that would be a pity.


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## Nenya Evenstar

I agree that it would be a pity to ban them altogether. A Tolkien forum without the freedom to discuss religion is missing a vital part, IMO.

However, I still feel that what I said in my last post would happen. I'm taking this thread from the point of view of a member of this forum and giving you all my opinion on what I think would happen from what I have seen in the past. I am well aware of how Christians should witness. I am merely saying what I think would happen and I'm saying why I think it would happen. I agree completely with you, Eriol, on how Christians should act, but I'm sorry to say that what I've seen on this forum doesn't gel. I have outlined what I think will happen from a forum member's POV, not a Christian's.

I had no wish to go into how I think Christians should act. Indeed, my POV differs drastically from what I've outlined. I'm giving my concerns from what I've seen in the past, and I think they will happen.


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## Ithrynluin

*And now a poll...*

...so everyone can cast their vote.



> _Originally posted by Nenya Evenstar _
> *A religious forum will not be a place to hear other people's opinions and discuss them like they are opinions. Rather, it will be a place for people to attempt to convert other people to their religion (at least I know that Christians will do this). There is no way out of it because religion is not a matter of opinion to most people. It is what they believe to be Truth and, as I said earlier, a matter of life and death.
> 
> I see this as extremely dangerous and detrimental to the forum. People will be insulted by those who are trying to save their souls, and the animosity created by the GoR will seep into the other forums.
> *



Those were roughly my unspoken thoughts also...


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## Idril

I voted 'yes' although, I really wanted to vote 'no' 

I would rather not have a religion section, but in light of the fact that we do have religious threads - it would be better to have them all in one place rather than scattered about the forum.

Nenya - what you say is so true - and many times it's unintentional - it's ingrained into us as Christians (lapsed) and other religions) to show others the 'error of their ways' and to 'enlighten them'. I myself have had 'offers' to 'save my soul' and they are very kind, thoughtful offers, but my soul is my own and if it's going to burn in hell, well so be it.

WM really need to input on this topic. Have any of the 'pro' section people actually asked him about this as a possibility?


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## Estrella

We'll ither way we are now deciding, i suppose.


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## Niniel

I hope the poll will give some more decisive result than 7 in favour and 7 against, or we will never get somewhere. But it shows how divided the votes are on this subject.


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## Estrella

dang, it's still 50-50? This isin't really helping.


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## Uminya

At first, I thought to myself "No, absolutely not" to this idea. I have changed my mind before posting.

I think that such a forum could be guided to ensure that all religions are discussed, not just Christianity (which I know has a tendency to inadvertently throw its weight around here on TTF). Persons with like mind to myself (humbly speaking) tend to challenge the mainstream thoughts and bring up new discussion.

As a brief example, many people don't know what religion I am because I consistently challenge Christians in arguments and find common ground with atheists. I defend Islam, Judaism, Hindu, and other faiths on a regular basis and often "bash" the Bible as being an inaccurate warping of Christian doctrine. Those of us who are genuinely interested in religion, rather than a single part of it, would find such a forum immensely valuable in satisfying our curiosity.

Just as the Guild of Politics radically changed some and reinforced other opinions for myself, I think that a "Guild of Religion" could do the same, by providing information and advice for some who seek them.


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## Estrella

Ciryaher, you're not as alone as you think. that is exactly why I would want a religious section. i have my own personal blend of beleifs, kinda like the custom made perfumes and colognes. I'm not very religious in the common sense, but i am spiritual. I think that if we have the right blend of people posting, it will keep itself in check and balanced, with little guidance from a mod.m But it's still neck and neck, and leaning twards no. So we shall see.

P.S.: I'm not saying religion is as important as Perfume, or vice versa.


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## HLGStrider

I'm posting this before I read this to run an idea by you guys. 

The C9 brought this up for discussion, and we came up with something that might be less controversial than a religion guild but still as interesting, enabling that sort of discussion while not exclusively.

A pure debate guild. 

A guild to debate anything serious and not Tolkien that doesn't really fit in politics. This would include, as well as religion, philosophy, literature, and ethics. I believe we already have a place for history and politics, and I'd keep those where they were. However, this would allow for religious discussion in a serious, well monitored section, without as much risk of fights.

What do you think?


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## Estrella

That could work.... very well. That would be the nature of a religous guild, and it would consolidate the GoP... way cool.

hehehehe
i guess that's a better plan than the poll, it's getting us nowhere.


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## HLGStrider

We'd discussed putting the politics guild in there with it, but we hadn't decided whether it should be or not.


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## EllethBronwe

I think this is a great idea especially since Tolkien was very religious himself. The only drawback is that a lot of religious chatrooms turn into either evangelical discussions or a place where atheists come and stir stuff up. Nothing against atheists, and not that anyone here would, it's just that I've seen it happen before. We need a lot of rules for this to go through okay and for no one to be offended in anyway, cause that wouldn't be right. I just don't want anyone to end up arguing. But like many people have said I'm sure people here can handle this maturely.


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## BranMuffin

*WOW THIS IS A BIG THING NOW*

I STARTED THIS THRED WITH THE THOUGHT IN MIND OF NOT CONTROVERSY OR WHO IS RIGHT OR WRONG IN THIER BELIEFS. WHAT I HAD IN MIND WAS A PLACE WHERE PEOPLE COULD DISCUSS EACHOTHERS BELIEFS NOT DEBATE(WHICH IT COULD TURN INTO, I WOULD RATHER IT NOT THOUGH). THE GUILD WOULD BE A PLACE FOR LEARNING OF OTHERS "RELIGIONS" OR BELIEFS. MOSTLY EVERY ONE WANTS A DEBATE AREA, THAT IS NOT WHAT I HAD IN MIND WHEN POSTIND THIS THREAD. IF WE KEEP OUT DEBATE WE KEEP OUT HATE-SORRY HAD TO . I AGREE WITH ERIOL IN THE POINT THAT THERE ARE ALREADY THREADS FOR RELIGION WHAT HARM WOULD IT DO TO PUT THEM INTO ONE AREA. I ALSO HAVE STATED THESE POINTS BEFORE THAT THE MAIN PURPOSE OF THE GoR WOULD NOT BE FOR RELIGION FORCERS OR "PUSHY" EVANGELIZERS, BUT TO LEARN!


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## HLGStrider

But undeniably, there would be debate. A lot of threads just start off to talk about a religion (Normally Christianity) and somehow they always end up in debate. Occasionally, someone asks how they feel about magic and books and one of the person makes a comment about the line between witchcraft and LotR type magic, and then pow! Some Wiccan/Witch is offended by this statement and wants to defend. They have a right to be offended and to defend, of course, so it would be best to let them. Therefore, it is going to have debate.


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## Estrella

I think a debate guild would also help to lesson the controversy. You've seen how some people react to the mention of it. They get scared and declare it too arguementative. If it were a debate guild where we just discussed religion, it'd be easier for people to swallow, sadly enough.


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## BranMuffin

> _Originally posted by Estrella _
> *I just have a question. What kind of purpose would a religion guild Serve? I mean, what goals would it acomplish, and how would it make TTF better? *



THIS QUESTION HAS ALREADY BEEN ANSWERED, TO LEARD OF OTHER RELIGIONS AND AT THE SAME TIME CLEAN UP THE OTHER AREAS OF TTF. AS FAR AS MAKING TTF BETTER THAT ALL DEPENDS ON THE ATTITUDE OF THE POSTERS AND THE FELLOWSHIP BETWEEN MEMBERS.


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## BranMuffin

> _Originally posted by FREEDOM! _
> *I kinda like the idea.
> 
> I can keep an open mind, would you mind if I were one of the mods that moderated this guild? *



ACTUALLY, YES I WOULD MIND. I ALREADY HAVE A FEW PEOPLE IN MIND FOR MODS BUT WILL NOT BRING THEM INTO THE LIGHT UNLESS/UNTIL THE GUILD IS FOUNDED.


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## Ancalagon

Strangely enough, I was discussing this same question elsewhere!? I wonder if I could start the first debate: God: Is she Catholic or Protestand?


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## Estrella

Ancalgon,
There are several debates already started on religion in The Guild Of Scholars. We should move it over there. This place isin't really to debate religion topics, but to debate having a place or guild for religious topics. You automatically assume that god is a she. How can we be sure? God may be Male, female, or ungendered.


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## Ancalagon

I am glad my sarcasm isn't lost on you Estrella


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## Estrella

Lol. 
 

But you do make a very good point. So many religions claiming god as their own, it almost makes you think god has multiple personalites. It brings into question just who god truly "favors". This is why i like the eastern religions, they allow room for multiple paths to god. Well most do , atleast. But seriously, set up a thread! This could be a very good debate, especially is Thorin gets invovled.


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## BranMuffin

SOME SEEM TO BE GETTING THE WRONG PICTURE. I DO NOT WANT A DEBATE THREAD OR AREA. I WANT THE GUILD TO BE AN AREA TO LEARN OF OTHER RELIGIONS NOT DEBATE THEM OR THEIR INDIVIDUAL BELIEFS. I AM SHURE THERE WILL PROBABLY BE DEBATES IN THE GUILD BUT I WOULD ASK TO KEEP IT TO A MINIMUM AS DEBATES CAN BECOME HEATED VERY QUICKLY ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO RELIGION OR BELIEFS.


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## Nenya Evenstar

I think Anc just illustrated the point precisely that, whether you want debates or not, you will get them.


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## Lifeling

I agree it would start too many arguments, and breed harsh feelings... I like it how it is now with a guild for the religions that want one...


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## BranMuffin

> _Originally posted by Lifeling _
> *I agree it would start too many arguments, and breed harsh feelings... I like it how it is now with a guild for the religions that want one... *



WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT A GUILD FOR THE RELIGIONS THAT WANT ONE, THAT'S WHAT THIS THREAD IS ABOUT, TO FORM ONE. 
ARGUMENTS ARE A CHOICE OF THE POSTER NOT THE THREAD OR GUILD. THERE ARE ALREADY THREADS WITH A RELIGIOUS TOPIC, THE GUILD WOULD JUST PUT THEM INTO ONE PLACE.


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## HLGStrider

He's talking about the occasionaly Christians Guild, Pagan Guild, etc, that will just spring up and be participated in. . .

However, there is really no way to avoid debate. I personally do not participate in the Pagan threads, despite dire predictions about Christians trying to convert other people. I will look into them to see what's up, but not often. . .I find it to be the other way around. You start a Christian thread, and it will end up in debate with a lot of other religions coming in to make a point. . .there must be times where Christians have stormed pagan threads on here, because I hate to think this is all being imagined.


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## Estrella

I thought the nature of discussions on such controversial topics was to have debates... I was not aware there was a pagan guild. Like everyone keeps saying, debates will arise, rather it be a pagan thread, or a christian thread, or heavens gate thread, and i hope people of all religions participate in all of them, while being respectful. Like Branmuffin said, It would be mainly there to learn. But we already have threads, may as well consilidate them. And with the possible convert efforts, i'm sure people will have enough respect to just let people be. Only way to find out is to get this shindig started.


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## Theoden

I think that a guild for religion could be a real asset to TTF, or it could turn into a liability. Whichever way it went would, of course, depend on us; those that would be posting. Personaly, I like a good debate once in a while, but threads like Finding God in LotR just keep going round and round until you are so sick of the same issue you could just hit the "reboot" button on your computer and hope it goes away. As stated, it would need a very perseptive mod(s), who could detirmine the difference between wholesome debate and bashing. 

-me


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## BranMuffin

SEEMS LIKE EVERYONE HERE HAS MIXED VIEWS ON THIS SUBJECT BUT THE POLL SHOWS FAVOR IN HAVING ONE AS OF NOW. ONLY QUESTION TO THE MODS IS HOW LONG THEY ARE GOING TO LET THE POLL GO ON FOR?


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## Eriol

I don't think the poll is decisive... even though I am in favor of this Guild .

Certainly WM will look at the arguments to make his decision, and not at the poll itself.


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## BranMuffin

TRUE, I GUESS WE NEED MORE PEOPLE TO DECIDE. I HOPE THEY ALL REALIZE WHAT WE'VE BEEN SAYING OR ACTUALLY READ THE OTHER POSTS, THAT THERE ARE ALREADY THREADS ABOUT RELIGION, THIS WOULD JUST GIVE THEM A DIFFERENT PLACE TO BE TO CLEAN UP SOME OF THE OTHER FORUMS. AND THAT IF DEBATES OR ARGUMENTS START IT IS A RESULT OF THE POSTERS NOT THE THREAD. YES, SOME THREADS CAN BE CONTROVERSIAL BUT THEN YOU SHOULD EXPECT SOME DISAGREEMENT AND BE READY NOT TO LOOSE CONTROL OR A COOL STATE OF MIND, BE RECEPTIVE AND UNDERSTANDING THEN EXPLAIN YOUR SIDE OR VIEW IN A CALM MANNER. PROBABLY GOOD ADVICE FOR ALL THREADS THOUGH.


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## HLGStrider

> I was not aware there was a pagan guild



Actually, it wasn't a guild. . .it was just a thread. There is currently a thread for pagans in Stuff and Bother and there used to be a wiccan/witch one in MA. . .in response to the Christian thread in there that turned into a very long debate due to the issue I'd before mentioned (Someone asked how much witch craft was ok in literature for Christians. . .etc.).


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## Estrella

ohh.... cool.


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## EllethBronwe

What is missing here is whether there should be a Christian Guild or Religious Guild or both. The problem is that there is too much of a difference between Christianity and religion. It needs to be narrowed down but no one's faith should be excluded. What I suggest is one guild and have all the religions as separate threads. Even denominations if you want to go that far. But the issue should not be debate, because all debate is in religion is a lot of different people trying to convince others that their religion is the right one and I'm sorry but that is just not right at all. What we have to consider is the huge gap between Christianity and religion. Pretty much no matter how it happens, there is going to be debate. It is unavoidable. Even if we had just Christianity there still is the issue of denomination and what others consider Christian to be. Too wide of a mix of beliefs is going to lead to debate no matter how its handled. Keep all this in mind. Maybe it is best to leave religious matters alone and to let people go to other sites for religious discussion. And its not that I don't support this, I just don't want to see anybody get hurt, especially those of more controversial religions. The important thing here is to watch out for the members of this forum. As long as we can keep this at a place where people can share their beliefs and not debate them then everything should work out all right.


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## Estrella

I Know. Spirituality guild! it perfect! vague enough to include all religions, while not implying one imparticular... and hopefully no offense to anyone!. hehehehehe


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## Lúthien Séregon

Spirituality guild...I like it! Sounds better than "Religion Guild", in any case.


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## HLGStrider

I don't have the slightest idea what one would do in a spirituality guild. In a religious guild there would be at least debates to make it interestng.


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## Eriol

I suppose the name of the thing is not too important. It will be a place to keep all religion-based threads together. We have some threads with a lot of debate, some with little or no debate, some almost secular in character... they will all be there. Threads in which I had some participation in the near past that I think would be fitting include:

the Gary Kasparov thread (philosophy, mostly secular)
Hell (theology)
Jesus Freaks (originally a get-together of Christians, then turned into an exegetics debate, getting back on track now)
Question on the Bible (discrepancies between Genesis and the evolutionary account)

...

They are quite unlike from each other. And there are others in which I do not participate, though I take a look, such as the Guild of Christians, the Pagan Lovers...

This is the kind of stuff that would be seen in the new Guild, I suppose, whatever its name.


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## BranMuffin

> What I suggest is one guild and have all the religions as separate threads. Even denominations if you want to go that far.


GOOD IDEA, BUT THERE WILL ALSO BE MIXED THREADS I'M SHURE.


> Maybe it is best to leave religious matters alone and to let people go to other sites for religious discussion.


I'VE DONE THAT BEFORE BUT IT ALWAYS TURNS OUT TO BE A REALLY BIG ARGUMENT ESPECIALLY BECAUSE THERE IS NO ONE TO WATCH THEM. PLUS YOU HAVE THE BROTHERHOOD OF TTF WHERE HOPEFULLY YOU WATCH OUT FOR EACH OTHER, HELP EACH OTHER, AND ARE RESPECTFUL OF THE OTHER POSTERS.


> The important thing here is to watch out for the members of this forum. As long as we can keep this at a place where people can share their beliefs and not debate them then everything should work out all right.


I AGREE, BUT THE DEBATE PART WOULD MORE THAN LIKELY BE MONITORED CLOSELY, AND I WOULD LIKE IT NOT TO BE ABOUT WHO IS RIGHT OR WRONG JUST SHARE YOUR POINT OF VIEW. WHO EVER IS DEBATING PROBABLY THINKS THEY ARE RIGHT ANYWAYS, BUT IF YOU SHOW YOUR POINT OF VIEW NOT BELIEFS YOU MIGHT HAVE LESS OF A DISAGREEMENT.
MAYBE WE COULD HAVE A SPECIAL AREA IN THE GUILD FOR RELIGIOUS DEBATES, THEN MEMBERS CAN COME EXPECTING SUCH, AND CAN POST WITH A CLEAR AND OPEN MIND.


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## Eledhwen

*I'm a Christian who voted "no"*

My reason is that Christian is what and who I am, not just something I do or a pastime I am interested in. My faith colours all my thoughts, deeds and comments. My whole attitude to Tolkien's writings is outworked through my Christian faith. Also, I get very bored when Christians spend their conversations and posts on obscure theological twists and turns when the important job is to get everyone saved, not convince them of (for instance) the difference between pre- and post-millennial Christianity.

Most of my posts on this forum do not mention my Christian faith (thankfully, most might say!), but where it is the natural comment I would make in response to the previous post, wherever it is on the forum, and provided it is in keeping with the subject of the thread, then in it goes, Jesus and all.


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## Estrella

Eldwhen... I understand your fiath, and admire the strength of it, But i would say that based on the results i've seen in ttf, you're in the minority in discussing the specific aspects of religion. I'm guessing that like myself, a lot of people get a certain.. high from it. But a Religion or Spiritiuality thread wouldn't be a place to "Save People" as you put it, if they want to be saved, they'll seek salvation out. It would rather be a place to bring a point of view, or more understanding of a certain religion, rather it be Hindu, Christian, or Wiccan ( it's not the same as satanism!) And HGLStrider, no matter what the name, debates would naturally arise, ( even if i have to throw in a few hot coals myself!  ) So the name doesn't matter, But it would placate more people.


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## Nenya Evenstar

You see, what Eledhwen said is exactly what I was outlining in my posts a few pages back. I have a feeling that a good deal of the Christians on this forum feel the same way as Eledhwen does. I do. If this guild does come into play, as I honestly hope it does not, I have a feeling that many of the Christians who do look into it will feel exacly the same way Eledhwen does.

Bad news for the forum as a whole.


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## Uminya

To those against the guild because TTF is "about Tolkien", I say that half of TTF is already un-Tolkien. It always has been. A purely-Tolkien site would be unattractive to most people, but with the social atmosphere we have here, people *like* to come here. Hopefully the talk about Tolkien at least some, of course.

But we've already got many successful threads and fora that don't have a thing to do with Tolkien. My opinion is that we should put all religious threads in one place, regardless of whether or not they are Tolkien-related. It would not just be for debate, nor just for Christians, not for bashing. Discussion of philosophies and ideas is one of the best ways for humans to interact on an intellectual basis, and what better way to learn about eachother than learning about eachother's manner of thinking and their beliefs?


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## Eriol

I agree Ciryaher...

And if I may say so I love your current sig.


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## HLGStrider

> HGLStrider



oh no. . .not again. . .WHY? IT ISN'T THAT HARD TO SPELL! IT IS ACTUALLY VERY EASY! HLG HLG HLG HLG!

Blah. . .um. . .Uh. . .

I think a lot of people like a good debate. I can be one of them. We even debate Tolkien to the ground. Religion is much more important to most people than Tolkien (though we come up with the occasional "my religion is Tolkien" type), so it is going to have more debate.

I like religious debates. I've actually changed my mind on at least one topic.


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## Estrella

I'm sorry.. HLGstrider. But it's just not you, i mess up everybody's name. If you want to mispell mine, you can.


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## Theoden

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> *I like religious debates. I've actually changed my mind on at least one topic. *



Same here. I think a healthy guild where people could debate important and light topics within religions or simply from a religious standpoint would be quite stimulating for those of us who enjoy a good debate and are willing to let others enjoy it as well. 

-me

ps
(HLG...HLG...HLG... I think I am getting the hang of it! )


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## Eledhwen

> _Originally posted by Eriol _
> *And if I may say so I love your (ciryaher's) current sig.
> ("NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!")*


Is it a quote from the infamous Monty Python episode, or do you have another source? (The Spanish Inquisition was, of course, religious, so this post is relevant to the thread )

Being even more relevant, I have absolutely no objection to properly organised debates on religious subjects, with teams and judging etc. I just get fed up with being unable to converse on the subject without someone wading in with both wellies on forcing a debate where one wasn't wanted.


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## Eriol

It is, indeed, a Monty Python quote . I advise all of you to google on "Spanish Inquisition". I was doing it for serious purposes  and stumbled on the script of this sketch. Very good!


As for the "spoiling" of non-debate threads, I agree completely with you Eledhwen. I would think the RelGuild would make it easier for moderators to watch out for that... 

We all know some examples of threads in which this happened -- unfortunately.


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## Eledhwen

On the original TV show, the Spanish Inquisition kept invading the other sketches. It was so funny that I can't remember the rest of the show. You'd get, for instance, a scene in a 20th century pub, then all these medieval Spanish clerics would burst in and shout "Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!" At the end of the show they were just bursing in when the credits came up, and they said "Oh (profanity)". I laughed till I ached. I don't think anyone has successfully taken the mickey out of religion as much as Monty Python; probably because they concentrated on pillorying what was ridiculous, pompous and wrong instead of insulting the core truth.

I realise that by saying the above, I leave myself open to a "What are you on about..... " Perhaps the rights and wrongs of pillorying religion could be one of the debate items. It would be sad if the debates were purely theological.


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## Estrella

Hahaahaha... i didn't really get that "Spanish Inquistion thing," buti guess you had to see it. Eldhwen don't worry, there are a few good debaters or both sides. I think it's a bit heathly to joke around with religion like that... makes it a bit more amiable, not so serious and scary.


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## Nenya Evenstar

Doesn't anyone like Elgee's idea over just a plain religion guild? That idea doesn't have near the potential to turn into a headache for all forum members.


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## Eriol

I like it... though I don't see it as a headache-free medicine .

More important than the format is the people, contributing and moderating.


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## Ancalagon

Why not call it 'The Temple of Spiritual Enlightenment' then


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## Elendil3119

Well, since it doesn't look like a Religious Guild is going to happen, Elgee's idea seems to be the next best thing.


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## Estrella

true... ither way, i couldn't care less if it was called The House of Broken Mousetraps..... But Eriol's right, it's about the people. If we ever get this started.


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## BranMuffin

SO WHAT HAS BEEN DECIDED? EVERYONE STILL IS MIXED ABOUT HAVING ONE OR NOT, AND THE POLL DOESN'T HAVE VERY MANY REPLIES. HOW MANY ARE NEEDED OR HOW MUCH OF A PERCENTAGE DIFFERENCE IS NEEDED? HOW LONG WILL THE POLL GO ON FOR?


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## Nenya Evenstar

I really don't think anything is decided . . . the entire decision of something like this probably rests upon the shoulders of WM. Whatever he deems best for his forum is what will undoubtedly happen.


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## Jesse

Agreed Evenstar.


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## BranMuffin

> _Originally posted by Nenya Evenstar _
> *I really don't think anything is decided . . . the entire decision of something like this probably rests upon the shoulders of WM. Whatever he deems best for his forum is what will undoubtedly happen. *


 Yeah, the WM is cool like that. I wonder what he thinks about this?


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## HLGStrider

GASP! SHRIEK! FAINT!

A BRAN MUFFIN POST THAT ISN'T ALL IN CAPS! 

I'm dreaming. . .


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## BranMuffin

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> *GASP! SHRIEK! FAINT!
> 
> A BRAN MUFFIN POST THAT ISN'T ALL IN CAPS!
> 
> I'm dreaming. . . *


 Yes, its true I have been repremanded to change my habit. Apparently it was making people think I was yelling or something . Oh well, no more caps for me. Goodbye caps typing I will truly miss thee. Sob......ok, I'm alright.


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## Eriol

THANK YOU BRANMUFFIN! WE ALL APPRECIATE YOUR SACRIFICE!


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## BranMuffin

> _Originally posted by Eriol _
> *THANK YOU BRANMUFFIN! WE ALL APPRECIATE YOUR SACRIFICE!
> 
> *


 I can't tell if you are mocking me or commending me. Either way is fine. And you are welcome Eriol.
Would you all like me to go and edit all my older posts?(I'm not joking, I will if you would like)


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## Eriol

Commending, my friend... I really appreciate your effort.

I wouldn't think editing all of your posts is necessary -- it would render Elgee's post nonsensical.

It would be the very first nonsensical post by Elgee.


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## BranMuffin

> _Originally posted by Eriol _
> *Commending, my friend... I really appreciate your effort.
> 
> I wouldn't think editing all of your posts is necessary -- it would render Elgee's post nonsensical.
> 
> It would be the very first nonsensical post by Elgee.
> 
> *


I wouldn't want to mess with Elgee's record of nonsensicalness(is that a word ) Plus it would take quite a while to change them all, eventually I will though. Sorry Elgee.


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## Estrella

sounds like a word to me, Nonsensical Nonsensically Nonsensical! may I barrow it?


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## BranMuffin

> _Originally posted by Estrella _
> *sounds like a word to me, Nonsensical Nonsensically Nonsensical! may I barrow it? *


 I didn't make up the word nonsensical, I was referring to the word nonsensicalness, you may borrow that. But you'll have to ask Eriol for the other.


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## BranMuffin

Is there anyone else that is going to vote? Or has everyone who is interested already voted? Does no one else care?


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## Estrella

I suppose there isin't much left for us to do, but wait. afterall, It is ultimately the WM's decision. we may as well close the polls. i don't think much more people care.


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## BranMuffin

I have heard that modifications and additions may be put off until the introduction of the new vbulletin. So until then I guess the poll is still open to those who don't know about it yet.


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## Jesse

No offence to anyone here on TTF,
But I am against a religious section or religion here completely. Sure Tolkien was Catholic. However we have a lot of athiests, wiccans, pagans, etc. here on TTF. The way I see it, to avoid religious confrontation and/or clashes, we should just avoid religion altogether. On most of the forums I go to, that is what they have done and it has become far more peaceful and corporative. Religion is something that can be debated and the debates often turn into heated arguments. This was quoted from Zelda Universe's forums http://www.zeldauniverse.net/main.php?page=msgboard:

*The past has shown that this (Religion) is a topic where it can be very hard to accept that people have different opinions, and in 99% of the cases, it ends up with huge quarrels.*

Also, topics on religion often bring frauds. Believe me, I have had my share of Christian forums and most of their members are just trying to start a debate. Which is not bad, but when it turns heated, then it is bad. Why should TheTolkienForum have a religious section or religious guilds for that matter? All it does is bring heated agruments and debates. In my opinion, the mods should re-do the rules and make it a law that guilds, topics, etc. on religion will result in a warning, then the person will be banned, should they commit this act twice. Here is what Zelda Universe has for their rules...and perhaps TTF should have the same....


*$ 1. Spam 
Our definition of spam: 
» Anything that's just one word, or is extremely short--including "lol," "rotflmao," and any other pure spamola. 
» Any post that has only a smilie as its content. Come on, how much imagination does that take? 
» A post that helps nothing along but is just blatantly obvious or uneeded or repetitive such as someone ending their post with "that's gross" and someone else saying afterwards, "yes very" or "nasty", or "eek, eew". 
» Repeated advertising. 
Spam causes a big use of bandwith from our servers, and therefore a higher bill. Because of this, our moderators will take immmediate action against spamming. Our advice: Don't do it. 

$ 2. Language/Grammar 
Because the boards are open to people of all ages, please keep the swearing at a minimum. Also, please put some effort into your spelling. It makes the board look a lot cleaner and appealing to new users, not to mention the fact that current members have to deal with it, too. 

$ 3. Fighting 
...is not allowed. It is okay to discuss things, but fighting (namecalling, flaming, etc.) will not be tolerated. As always, treat other members the way you want them to treat you! 

$ 4. Admins and Moderators 
Respect them. They are your superiours in here, and they can tell you what to do! The current Administrators and Moderators are:



$ 5. Restricted Forums 
There are currently two restricted forums: the Staff Forum and the Clan Forum. The first one can only be accessed by Administrators, Moderators and ZU Staff Members. There is no need to ask for permission for accessing this forum, as confidential discussions about both the messageboard and the site's future take place here. The second houses the three clans (Farore, Din; Nayru) which are special groups which many members choose to join. After two weeks of membership, you may contact Big Bro Davidia for further information. 

$ 6. Critique 
If you wish to comment on either the boards and/or the site, please use contructive criticism, and be sure to post it in the Feedback, Suggestions and Questions Forum. You can also PM your comments to AnakiN-. 

$ 7. Topics 
As far as it is possible, stay on subject in the different topics. If you have something else you want to talk about, start a new topic! Many of your random posts will be suitable for the General Chit-Chat Forum. 

$ 8. Avatars/Signature Images; Custom Ranks 
» Avatars cannot be bigger than 90x90 pixels, unless noted elsewhere for smaller dimensions. 
» A maximum of two signature images are allowed. The largest permissible dimensions for Signature Images is set at 400x200 pixels! Remember, no one likes a cluttered post. Your words mean more than the images you use. Many members are distracted and annoyed by exhoribtant signatures. 
» Custom Ranks are not available at this time. 

$ 9. Religion 
Discussion regarding religion will not be allowed in the forums. Why? This is because people on the board belong to a wide array of religions, or even no religion at all. The past has shown that this is a topic where it can be very hard to accept that people have different opinions, and in 99% of the cases, it ends up with huge quarrels. 

Last but not least, USE COMMON SENSE!

Breaking the rules will result in a warning. When a person gets his/her 3rd warning, a ban will be placed on their IP-address, and the account will be deleted. In some cases, bans will be placed without warnings. No one likes trouble. Don't make it, and it won't be dished back out.*



Just my opinion on the whole religion issue. I am not against any religion. I believe in the Great Spirit. I am however, against discussions of religion in public places and on non-religous forums such as this.


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## Eriol

Well, I disagree... most of my opponents in religious threads are people whom I respect and consider friends. I have learned a lot from them.

To each his own.


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## BranMuffin

Agreed, Eriol(fellow discusser of beliefs). I hold in high respect those who I disagree with many of times. Just because we may not see it their way doesn'e mean we don't understand where they are coming from. Although I do not know how much you have learned from me(probably not much). Opponents may be too strong a word, I would use "fellow discusser who may not think the same as me". And no offence Jesse but what age(mainly) goes to a zelda site compared to a Tolkien site, it's a little bit of a maturity difference.


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## Confusticated

Isn't the forum Stuff and bother, for non-Tolkien topics? To me, this would include religion.

I think any religious topic can fit well into Stuff and Bother, Time Lords, or Guild of Politics.

If a religion area is opened, then what is next? Sports area? Music area? Movies area? Allowing this will send the message that if there is enough demand for it, an area will be opened for any topic. As has been said this is a Tolkien forum, and I imagine that such a religious area would set this place in the direction of becoming a discussion forum that happens to include Tolkien as one of several topics.

Maybe that is what some, or even most of you want. I don't know. 

I have similar idea about the GoP and Time Lords. While they contain a lot of good discussion that a lot of TTFers enjoy, they are non-Tolkien Guilds that have their own place on the main page. A religious area would be much the same thing.

I have a question about the Time Lords and GoP though. How did they come to be? Were they opened in 'other guilds'... and just grew very active? Or did someone just start a thread asking for them? Just curious.


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## Estrella

Jesse, according to the poll, you are in the minority,and what i've seen at TTF, people are very mature and respectful, and i greatly respect all of the people who debate. I beleive that many people, including myself, have learned a great deal from our little debates. Your ideal rule list is very rigid, i'm glad it's not the one used. This is site if for fun, though somewhat intelligent and controlled fun. And there's a major difference in Anime and Religion, even i would be against an Anime guild on here, and I love anime. And Nom, right now atleast two of the religious threads are in The Time Lords, even if we don't start a guild right now, it will eventually be formed, rather it be right now, or a year from now, it's inevitable.


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## BranMuffin

Estrella, actually there already is a guild for anime, though it is in the other guilds section. I believe Jesse started it. Anyways if or when the Guild is created, it probably won't be for a little while. I would expect it to be sometime after the intro of the new vBulletin, but don't take my word for it. Maybe it could take up some of the space the old RP section was at solving yet another suggestion posted.


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## Estrella

ohh... i didn't know that.. cool. i guess. thanks.


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## Jesse

Well I still have my opinion. On another non religiou forum I went to, I got my butt kicked for starting a prayer request thread. All I am saying is MOST people find topics on religion offensive.


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## Jesse

Sorry for double posting, but I have to say this:


*If you want to talk about any religion, join a religious forum and talk about religion there. Do not talk about it here. When you start a topic on your faith, you are forcing your beliefs on others who may not believe the same thing as you. They take this offensivly and contact the mods/admins about it. I KNOW FROM EXPERIENCE.*


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## Eriol

Jesse, if you don't mind me asking... I never saw you taking part of any religious discussion here. Why do you have such a forceful opinion without knowing what is taking place here, on TTF? Your experience is surely welcome, but my experience -- as well as the experience of everybody who is taking part of religious discussions _here_ -- is only of peaceful and respectful conversations.

How can starting a topic about your faith "force your beliefs" upon anyone?? It has never been seen like that here, and no Mod ever contacted me for that.


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## Jesse

*As I've said before.....*

The reason I have not participated in religious discussion here on TTF is because I do not support it. I admit, during my Christian life, I would've gladly talked about my faith openly. That stopped when I was told by a moderator of another forum (non-religious) that I could not do this stuff. Like I said before, I support religion. Christianity is wonderful. I am glad it has helped so many come to know the Creator. I still believe in God, and I believe Jesus Christ may _possibly_ be the Son of God, but I AM LOOKING FOR MY OWN ANSWERS and my prayer partner, accountability partner, my mother and my father support me in this search for answers. 

Yesterday I talked to Jesus. I received some comfort, but I believe that comfort came from my mind. My belief is our thoughts generate our feelings. If we think evil thoughts, we are evil. If we think good thoughts, we are good. I believe in the Great Spirit (God) as the Creator of this Earth. I do not believe in a Hell, for my belief on this is Hell is HERE. Earth is Hell. Satan does not exist, for if he did, the Great Spirit's words and laws would be wrong.

The Great Spirit (according to my own beliefs on this issue) did not make a demon king. In this case, the demon king is Satan. My belief on Satan is we ARE Satan. We destroy this beautiful Earth and it's wildlife without thinking about the consequences of our actions. Satan is us, we are Satan. We ask the Great Spirit for guidance and the guidance it gives us we refuse to follow, thus we are a demon. Rebellious, sinful, etc. I believe the Great Spirit cleanses us of our past, present, and future sins all at once.

I believe that mankind must turn to the Great Spirit in order to have religious, economic, and world peace. Once we all learn to look at Creation in a new and exciting way, we will have world peace. Until then, all efforts of peace are in vain. There will never be peace unless we do the above. My guardian spirit, the Wolf, watches over me and communicates to me through my unconsciousness (dreams) and tells me how I am my worst enemy. Christianity is not sinful or wrong. 


I also believe in these 17 commandments:
-----------------------------------------------------------------

1- Thou shall not sneak out while parents are asleep.

2- Thou shall not do drugs or use alchol. 

3- Thou shall not do anything that harms another. 

4- Thou shall not steal from thy parents. 

5- Thou shall not get in fights. 

6- Thou shall not break the law which is given to the peoples of the Earth. 

7- Thou shall not think about immoral things. 

8-Thou shall not disobey these commandments.

9-Thou shall love thy neighbor as thyself.

10-Thou shall not covet. 

11-Thou shall not be jealous.

12-Thou shall not have anger.

13-Thou shall not commit adultery.

14-Thou shall not lie

15-Thou shall not destroy wildlife and the Earth

16-Thou shall not bash out against other believers in a different faith

17-Thou shall not discuss your faith in places which discussing any faith is illegal. 



THAT IS WHAT I BELIEVE.


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## Eriol

Well, if you open a thread about what you believe, I'm sure no one will bash you for that, or forbid you to do it. We may ask questions, but since you are looking for answers, I suppose questions are welcome.

Go ahead, open your thread .

But you say you have refrained from discussions here because you do not support them; well, you can just go on not supporting them, and leave us, who DO support them, merrily discussing as we like to do. Is the mere existence of a religious discussion somewhere in the Forum, even if you do not take place in it, abhorrent to you? You can always skip the thread, and never look at it.

In fact, you are "bashing out against believers in a different faith" when you say religious discussions should be forbidden here. Our faith is that of free speech -- people should say anything they want, as long as they respect one another. If you support a ban on free and courteous speech, you are bashing us.

Finally, we are not asking for "allowance of religious discussion" -- that is already granted. There ARE religious discussions here. We are just asking for a more organized way to arrange them. It will be convenient for people who believe as you do, too, since you will be able to avoid religious discussions much more easily if they are all at one place. As it is now, we have them at Stuff and Bother, Guild of Politics, Time Lords, some metaphysical discussions in the Hall of Fire... If all of them were collected, people who disapprove of them would be able to avoid them easily.


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## Estrella

ahh Jesse, no one's ever gotten on my case for starting my religious thread. And i disagree with you on several points in your beleif system, you expect too much of human beings. But it is your right to believe so. I too am searching for answers. We all are. That is how religious threads help up. they help us find answers, and then work them out into an organized belief system. Plus they're already here to stay, i beleive. may as well put them all in one place.


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## HLGStrider

Somebody on that forum of yours had a control complex. A prayer request threat outlawed? Prayer doesn't belong to just one religion. It belongs to several. 
If they were allowing off topic they should've allowed that. . .

I think religion should be allowed to be discussed. We are already allowing it. The question right now is whether having a special place for it to be discussed would inflame the occasional flare up.

Jesse, this wasn't a question of what you belive. This is a question on whether or not we should be able to discuss it. 

I like arguements more than I should, about religion, poltics, anything, but I think I'm a fairly civil debater. I've only lost my temper once and that was on a poltiics thread, not a religion one. . .

I could debate you on your commandments, of course, not that most of those arent' good things, but I could debate it. This isn't the place. The question is, whether there is a place.

I think there is, though I voted undecided.


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## Jesse

*This is a tolkien forum guys... (I am trying to be calm here, but it is very hard..)*

We came here to talk about Tolkien did we not? Or did we come to TheTolkienForum.com to talk about a religion? If you want to discuss religion, go to a religious forum and talk about it there. My friend and I agree and he says I am the only sane person on this issue. He says also that if it is a Tolkien forum, they should talk only about Tolkien. Nothing else, nothing more. I will only say it once and then I will leave this rediculous topic altogether:

*This is a Tolkien forum. NOT A RELIGIOUS forum. If you want to talk about religion, go to http://www.beliefnet.com and discuss religion on their forums. I've tried to tell you all that THIS IS A TOLKIEN forum and not a religious forum. I am not against religion, just against discussing it here. Oh, and you can avoid starting a religious guild. It is not inevitable, I did not start a religious guild. So it is avoidable, not inevitable.*

_I am not bashing out against you all. THIS IS THE INTERNET, NOT AMERICA. So, with that being said, we have freedom of speech, only to a certain extent. I was stating my opinion and *I* got bashed out at. So, with that being said, you should rethink of how freedom of speech is allowed ONLINE. Now, I would appreciate it if I do not receive any private messages from you guys saying how I am wrong and how not being a Christian is sending me to Purgitory or Hell. Since I do not believe in both places. Just respect my beliefs and then I will respect yours. Until then, I fear I may not be able to be around you. I am not against religion, as I have repeatedely said, just against discussing or professing religion here._

Goodbye,
Jesse


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## Eriol

I see your point now. If you are finding it hard to remain calm, even though NO ONE bashed your beliefs; and if you feel that your opinion, added to that of your friend, is a mark of sanity -- then I guess you will not "be able to be around us", as you said.

God bless you Jesse, and may you find your answers.


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## HLGStrider

Seriously, Jess, it is a Tolkien forum, however, if you look around it, we have so many discussions on other topics that it would be ridiculous to just exclude religion. 
If we want to totally revamp the forum we should also remove all discussions on movies other than the Lord of the Rings
Other books
Food
Drink
Dancing
music
and definitely politics

all of which are frequently discussed on here.

Why just exclude religion? It can be controversial, but so can poltics, and if we are adults (or behave like them), there's no problem?

I hope you aren't talking about my pm. I never mentioned hell. I seriously wanted to know some of your reserves about Christianity (as I have never had any myself and I know many people have I need to listen to them in order to understand. . .and as I said I like a good discussion on it) and I also wanted a little bit of an in on the Great Spirit deal because I seriously have no idea what that represented. I would've liked to get into a full discussion with you. It's fun and it helps everybody understand their belief system better.


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## Lifeling

Wait... is Jesse leaving again? 
Jesse, Jesus said he was the son of God... so either he is... or he is a liar... you cant say possibly.
Jesse... you seem so adament that we should only talk about tolkien... who started the anime lovers guild.?. the music lovers guild...?
(Your seventeen commandments are pretty funny)

Anyway... Im against having a religous area, because I believe the only thing it will cause is fights. I like how it works now, there are discussions but most of the time they are on one specific aspect of belief and not on entire belief systems.


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## HLGStrider

As I see it the question is not whether to have religious discussions or not (as we already do), but whether or not they merit a seperate section. 

I truly think the idea of a Serious Debate area or more general arguement area would solve this. It would probably end up mostly religious debates, but as said earlier, could include literature, philosophy, science, and a few other things (We already have seperate spaces for history and politics). This would make sure that serious debates are not lost in the shuffle (and occasional idiocy) of Stuff and Bother, but are not the cause of extreme controversy (I'm not sure they would anyway, but you never know).

I probably wouldn't suggest moving the different religious "guilds" into this section. I'm only involved in the Christian one, of course (being a Christian), but for the most part it isn't debate or discussion. That's not why people form these guilds. They form them to meet friends of like mind (A lot like why they come here, to meet other Tolkien fans). The prayer request thread is also best suited for Member Announcements. . .

So, what about that idea?


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## BlackCaptain

Well if this is enough to cause 10 pages of debating I don't think we should bring anything so contrevercial into here. We don't need it


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## HLGStrider

What about a debate guild? What about that idea?


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## Ithrynluin

Maybe expand the Guild of Politics into 'The Guild of Politics, Religion and Philosophy'?


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## BranMuffin

> _Originally posted by BlackCaptain _
> *Well if this is enough to cause 10 pages of debating I don't think we should bring anything so contrevercial into here. We don't need it *



All ten pages(so far) are not all debate. Most have been responses to peoples questions and concerns. Some have been opinions on whether or not to form a religious guild.
So far the main argument against forming one is that it may cause arguments. But we have already disproved this idea. Take a look at the existing religion base threads and you will see that, with the exception of very few, there are no heated arguments. As I have said the responsability lies on the posters shoulders as to not get flustered over something minute, but to respond in a calm collective way and refute your side of the case. As it has been said already if you do not like religious threads then don't go in them.
My main point and the reason I started this(yeah it was me, punish me if you must) was to improve upon the forum. Cleaning up the various areas that there are threads about religion. Making it easier for members who do like to discuss religion to find each thread without going back and forth. Not to have another debate area and not to cause strife. Thanks all.


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## HLGStrider

I'm generally against combining forums. I like smaller forums where threads are easier to find. That's why I like the idea of politics and religion being seperate. . .so that I can find things. . .I'm also a fanatic for having threads that I start that get useless or old deleted after awhile. . .I pm links to tal every so often for her help in this.


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## Jesse

I rethought my opinion and I support a religious sub-forum. Just don't generalize it as "Christian" only.


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## BranMuffin

I didn't want it to be only Christian. As stated a while back the Guild could be split into different categories on the inside of the Guild.


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## Nenya Evenstar

I think this thread itself is an excellent example of how people can be insulted so extremely easily.

It is one thing to tell members to be calm, cool, and collective, and it is entirely admirable for them to attempt this. However, seeing how things on this forum (mostly arguments) are anything BUT calm and collective, I do not think it possible. I do NOT have faith in the members of TTF to keep a guild of religion insult-free. I don't have faith in myself to keep it insult-free, and if it does become a fact, I will run away from it as fast as I possibly can.

Every religious thread on these forums I've participated in has at one time or another been closed because of insults (including the prayer request thread). I know that they are not all like this, but from what I've seen, they are dangerous.

To add a separate guild for simply discussing religion will encourage religious discussions, and given what I've seen of the overal spirit of these forums, I do not think it a good idea, especially at this moment. We just got over a few huge issues caused by flaring tempers and anger . . . and any little open and raw wounds are still smouldering. Like it or not, the spirit of the forum right now is not "get along and be happy" but "I'm right and you're wrong . . . and I'll fight you for it." I think that there are many people who can agree with me on this.

Given the fact that there are these dangerous undercurrents going on, I do not think it is possible to say that a religious guild will be insult-free. You may say it, but it just isn't going to happen. Keep your freedom to discuss religion as it is, but if you attempt to magnify this freedom on a Tolkien forum where tempers are already raw, you're asking yourself for major trouble. 

Just my two cents.


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## Eriol

> _Originally posted by Nenya Evenstar _
> *Every religious thread on these forums I've participated in has at one time or another been closed because of insults (including the prayer request thread). I know that they are not all like this, but from what I've seen, they are dangerous.
> *



I think that's astounding bad luck, Nenya.



I'm taking part of The Protestant Reformation, Question on the Bible, and Skeptic's View of Christianity very actively; so far they have not been closed by insults. In fact, they never received any warning post from any moderator to that effect.

I've followed Jesus Freaks and Hell; the first had some sparks, and Beorn closed it for a while.

I don't remember anything like that in Hell. (What a funny sentence, hehe).

Only in a small thread have I seen a direct intervention from a moderator because of insults.

Conversely, the politics threads are _at least_ just as likely to result in flare-ups as those threads. And the greatest controversy I have seen in my lifetime here was about politics.

My point is -- insults are to be strictly controlled by the moderators when they take place. And if I believed that a religious guild would result in a greater "insult rate" I'd be as opposed to it as possible. But I don't think that. I think the religious threads are interesting and "fought with sportsmanship". And the Guild would only put the religious threads together, making it easy for you to run away from them if that is your wish . Though I'd rather have you visiting once in a while... since you don't get to your MSN anymore.


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## Walter

The worst "mud-throwing" I have seen at TTF has happened in threads dealing with either political or religious topics or issues. A lot of harm has been done and only little mutual understanding has resulted from those discussions, rather they usually end up with everyone cemented in their own position and very little understanding for those who do not share ones personal standpoint.

I fail to see the positive sides for TTF of such discussions, they tend to polarise the members and - personally - I could easily do without.

Hence, I would rather suggest to restrict political and religious threads to such topics that are in direct relationship with Tolkien and his works.


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## HLGStrider

Actually, the most amount of insults in a thread I've ever dealt with were in LotR based threads. . .but then again, that was during the infamous rein of Harad. 

I do not think we should restrict those subjects if we aren't going to restrict every other subject that isn't LotR's and we don't (because a lot of members would get bored with it). 

I think that a general serious debate section would be a good middle ground.


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## Nenya Evenstar

I wouldn't know if the political discussions cause just as many problems as the religious ones, simply because I do not take part in them. If they do, I'm all for keeping political discussions at a minimum too.

If anything, I support Elgee's idea of a mixed serious debate guild where everything from science, politics, religion, and the insanity status of Nenya can be discussed D).

If politics are already a problem, why increase the problem by adding religion on top of it?


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## Eriol

> _Originally posted by Nenya Evenstar _
> *If politics are already a problem, why increase the problem by adding religion on top of it? *



If you did not notice the problem, why then is it a problem?


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## Nenya Evenstar

Because I have only posted the Guild of Politics once . . . I run from argumentative areas of the forum.  Never noticed because I didn't participate . . . believe me, I've heard.


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## Eriol

I like Elgee's idea too. Something like the Rehtob & Ffuts Murof.


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## Jesse

I love debating over religion and proving Atheism is better. So I'm all for a religious section, just not a Christian section alone. I want all faiths to be welcomed.


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## Estrella

lol... !gnipyt skcabdraw evol I yay! we got Jesse! we got Jesse! anyway, Naming it a Christian forum would only cause mud slinging.. i agree. an all religion forum!


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## BranMuffin

That is what I have said all along. Geez, does no one read my posts. There is already a Guild of Christians, so there wouldn't be a need for another one.

Like I have posted many times before, I would like it to be a place to learn of other religions/points of view. NOT debate them or argue over who is right or wrong. I want it to be a place of understanding and listening openly, before speaking(saves you from eating your words a lot of times).


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## BranMuffin

*Not a sticky anymore?*

The thread isn't a sticky anymore? Am I not important? Am I not loved by all? Oh well...Does that mean nothing is going to come about from this?


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## Estrella

Bran.. we've done all we can...now it's up to The WM and C9....
your still important!


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## BranMuffin

Yeah I know I'm still important, I was just fishing for complements.
I wish WM and the C9 the wisdom and discerment to make the best decision for the forum.


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## Elbereth

I'll see what I can do in the C9 to push this along, so we can get a decision for you BranMuffin. 

If all goes well, we may have a decision made and sent to WM by next week. Wish us luck!


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## BranMuffin

I'm not in a rush. Best of luck though. Hmmm...9 people.....decision making.....can't be a tie......should be interesting to see what happens.

By the way sorry about this whole thing, I've been noticing A LOT of new threads going up everywhere that are based on religion. It also seemed as if some of them were started due to this thread. I didn't really want that but oh well more stuff to respond to. A side note: I haven't noticed any quarrels in any of them either...yet...and hopefully not at all.


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## Lúthien Séregon

All of the religion threads that have been going on lately were probably bound to happen in the end anyway ( same as anything to do with politics ), so that's why I think an area for religion topics would be best, especially considering there haven't really been too many quarrels...


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## Jesse

I support a Christian sub-forum. That'd be sweet...


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## Lúthien Séregon

*Hmmm...*

But if there was a Christian sub-forum, then to be fair there'd need to be sub-forums for every other major religion ( or atheism ).


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## Estrella

If we have sub forums for indivual religions, then it'll defeat one of the main objectives of a relgion area... to learn about and understand other religions. Not mention that it'd only be fair to have a satanism sub forums too.


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## HLGStrider

Well, we already sort of have a Christian subguild (as well as a LDS, Pagan, and maybe one other religion) if you check out the other guilds.


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## Jesse

I agree. There are already religious guilds...


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## Sarah

> _Originally posted by Estrella _
> *If we have sub forums for indivual religions, then it'll defeat one of the main objectives of a relgion area... to learn about and understand other religions. Not mention that it'd only be fair to have a satanism sub forums too.  *




ARG! Damn this political correctness world we live in! Why not just one forum for the discussion of religion?!


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## HLGStrider

That could be one heck of a nasty thread.


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## Lúthien Séregon

Well, if there was to be a Forum for religion, then it would have to be made up of either sub-categories featuring ALL major religions ( with another for any others ) to be fair, or no sub-categories at all. It can only be one or the other. I think just one forum for the discussion of religion would be best, like Sarah said.


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## HLGStrider

Well, I don't see the point to having a thread for a religion that nobody is a member of in this forum. 

Also, I think Satanism is not a major religion. It is also something that involves very violent practices in the mainstream. While most religions have subgroups that can be violent, this is one of the few that is mainstreamly annoying.


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## TaranisCain

Umm...no, very bad idea...too complicated


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## HLGStrider

The C9 is currently doing their big, great, deliberating thing on this, so you probably can expect an answer by next week. . .I'm guessing. I don't know if our say is final, but I think it might be.


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## Jesse

I still say we need sub-forums for religion, but that's just me...


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## Confusticated

Well I think that a big enough portion of TTF deals with Non-Tolkien topics as it is. I would think Stuff and Bother, GoP and that 'Other Guilds' place where people start guilds about any topic (at two religion guilds do exist there), are more than enough.

I just don't like the idea of adding yet another non-Tolkien forum to TTF. Sure it will keep all the religion topics in one place, but isn't S&B and Time Lords (2 places) compact enough?

Having an entire section for religion would encourage even more religion discussion and I think that this forum's Tolkien discussion makes up a small enough fraction of the overall discussions as is! Opening whole sections for non-Tolkien topics can not help promote Tolkien discussion.

Are there not religion forums out there?

Frankly, the whole possability of this happening makes me laugh.

I suppose if it is what most TTFers want, it might be a good thing... at least as far as most people are concerned. However, this is just the opinion of one member: I don't like it one bit.


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## Gil-Galad

What can I say!I AM AGAINST!!!! 
Excuse me but you are talking about religion and etc......
First of all Christianity,but aren't there jewish and muslims and buddhists,ah?Such place will be occupied mostly by Christians' ideas,is that fair?!
And the most important thing!I BELIEVE this is a place where we CAN discuss everything about Tolkien and his world.I BELIEVE that's the aim of this forum.THERE'S NO PLACE for religion.Everything concerning religion in Tolkien's works is being discussed in special threads,and they are only about TOLKIEN! 
A Religious area has no place in such forum.Everyone who wants to speak about religion is welcome to do that in Religious forums.But this is not the right place!
I came in the forum,because of his rules(NO RELIGION,NO CURSING,etc)because it was about TOLKIEN!
DO YOU UNDERSTAND?!! TOLKIEN!This forum is about Tolkien and it seems it is becomming a chatting room where everyone is allowed to speak about everything(The Guild of Politics,for example).
Such place will cause a lot of explosions between members.Should I say what happened due to the Guild of Politics.Should I mention that a Religious area WILL HAVE THE SAME EFFECT!? .Politics and religion are the two things which are like a real explosives nowadays.And do you think their place is here?!!!
Do you think their place is here,in the REALMS OF TOLKIEN! Guys,please,I beg you do not ruin THE TOLKIEN FORUM! 
Can't you understand ,it's about Tolkien about his world,nothing else.


Having in mind,that almost an year ago I entered the forum because I love Tolkien,because I want to gain knowledge about him and his works,and the things are changing I will have to leave you all if such place is established.I believe that the forum is loosing its PRIORITIES and I do not want to be part of this.


I hope some of you will be able to understand the meaning of these words:



> It's about Tolkien,nothing else.


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## Finduilas

I can't say anything more than...I repeat Gil-Galads words.He is absolutely right...about EVERYTHING !
Every word he said MUST be seriously taken under consideration and assumed!
UNDERSTAND,PEOPLE! 
I have nothing more to say...except that I agree on every GG's word..including these ones:



> Having in mind,that almost an year ago I entered the forum because I love Tolkien,because I want to gain knowledge about him and his works,and the things are changing I will have to leave you all if such place is established. I believe that the forum is loosing its PRIORITIES and I do not want to part if this.


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## Eriol

I encourage Gil-Galad to read the thread, he apparently has not done that if he thinks this idea is to discriminate against Jews and Muslims and any other religions. 

Also, I find it amusing that people who NEVER take part in religious discussions have such strong and alarmist opinions about it. Religion is here, guys -- big surprise, eh? It's been here for many months, and you never noticed it. Apparently is not such a big danger to the Forum. 

If a "place where everyone is allowed to talk about everything" is so disgusting to you, GG, I guess TTF is already hopeless for you. I hope you think better of your words; I hope you see that your stance is extremely unfair to the people who actually take part in the discussions. 

Then again, if you don't, I can't help it.


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## HLGStrider

What's with all the colored words?


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## FoolOfATook

> Freedom of thought used to have a better reputation.



Come on Eriol, don't you think you're being a tad overdramatic here? I mean, we both know that your freedom of thought is no more threatened by a internet message board not having a religion section than Gil-Galad's ideal of the TTF is seriously threatened by having a religion section. Given the fact that you admit that all of these discussions are flourishing without a religion section, I'm not quite sure how what Gil-Galad said is as opressive as you seem to make it out to be. 

I'm willing to bet that you didn't come to this website for the first time looking to have a discussion about the gender of the particular deity you worship. Instead, you came to this particular website probably with the intention of discussing the writings of a South African born Philologist. The occasional interesting side discussion about theology, or how Eric Gagne completely blew it for the National League in the All-Star Game, or a new movie was just icing on the cake. In fact, there was a forum dedicated entirely to the pursuit of matters utterly unrelated to Tolkien. 

I think that what Gil-Galad feels, and something that I think quite a few people here feel, is that lately, it seems like the icing is starting to wag the cake, if you'll allow me to mix metaphors horribly. I really don't believe that they are opposed to this potential guild out of prejudice or bias against religion, but rather that this is where a lot of people have decided to try to make a sort of a stand against what they see as the forum losing its definition, its purpose. 

I don't think that anyone seriously believes that the presence of a religious forum will be the end of TTF. But I think a lot of people view it as an discomforting step away from that which originally brought us all together.

At least, try to look at it from that perspective, especially before you begin throwing around words like "prejudice" and "bias".


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## Eriol

I know that quite a few people feel like Gil-Galad; I know that this idea will probably not be implemented. But I find it amusing that you are saying my post was overdramatic. Compare this post of mine with Gil-Galad's and you will see what I mean. (*Disclaimer: my post was editted, so it is even less overdramatic now... but I still think GG's post was much more overdramatic than my post, even before edition  *). So _my_ post was overdramatic, eh? Compare GG's post with Nóm's. Nóm said mostly the same thing as GG -- and I even agree with her (and with GG, and with you) that this idea is a bad idea -- _now_. 

I think this discussion (on this thread) should stop as quickly as possible (it is funny that a discussion about a religious forum gets more heated than any religious discussion); and since I have stated my position, I will not repeat it. 

I know I would NOT leave if this idea is NOT implemented -- and for the same reason that you are defending here, because this is a Tolkien place, and I love it for that reason. What I care about here is Tolkien; but this does not detract from all other discussions. 

As for the "throwing around words" -- I have gathered them back now .

P.S. -- By the way, I think Nóm offered the first cogent argument against this idea that I ever heard; and it is such a good argument that it convinced me. I think that this religious forum would attract people to TTF that had little or no interest in Tolkien; sure, this does not happen with the GoP, but I think religion is more "risky" than Politics as regards that. It would be a way to encourage religion discussions; and I don't want that. I want only a place where the religious threads can be gathered. But I see how having such a place could have the bad effects I just described. 

Make my vote a 'no', then.

But this is the only cogent argument I heard so far; to say that religion is "explosive", or that we should not "be allowed" to talk about non-Tolkien subjects, is not an argument that I find attractive.


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## Confusticated

> Religion is here, guys -- big surprise, eh? It's been here for many months, and you never noticed it.



Who, me? Gil-Galad? All who oppose a religions guild?

Did someone say they never noticed it?

I didn't say I never noticed it. I have noticed it... very much so.



> Also, I find it amusing that people who NEVER take part in religious discussions have such strong and alarmist opinions about it.


I've posted very little on the topic of religion, and none at all lately.
But I do not know why you find it surprising that some of those who do not discuss religion at TTF would be against making religion a bigger part of TTF's purpose, or if not purpose then service.

Would you rather be surpised if it was those who do take part in all these discussions who were against it? 



> I can see that this place will never come to be -- but I'd like to make it clear that this is an unhappy result of the biased opinions of people who NEVER took part in the religious discussions.



And had the people who speak against this taken a big part in many religious discussions, would that not be twisted into: "How can you be against it? You take part in it all the time. Bit hypocritical?"

I would guess the people who don't discuss religion at TTF would rather not do so at TTF in specific, or just plain don't like to talk about religion.

But maybe it is as you suggested in your post, Eriol: "If you don't like the thread, you can always avoid it."



> A pity. Freedom of thought used to have a better reputation. If you don't like the thread, you can always avoid it.



I suppose that Eriol, you are realy addressing Gil-Galad and Finduilas here, but you tossed out statements in your post that seem to be directed at all who oppose a religions guild. That is why I am replying.

I don't know you mean about "freedom of thought", do you mean freedom of speech here? Or do you imply that to deny the dedication of an entire section of TTF to religion, is to say: "You can not be religious!" or "you can not think that!"?

But I wonder if you have anything to say in reply to my last post? 




> What's with all the colored words?


People do that sometimes, or use bold, or underline to add emphasis.



> ...but rather that this is where a lot of people have decided to try to make a sort of a stand against what they see as the forum losing its definition, its purpose.



That is the reason I am against it. It is not that I worry about it causing a lot of conflicts or personal attacks.

When you stick something on the main page of TTF, you increase the importance of it, and advertisement of it.

Perhaps some members want a Tolkien/Religions forum. I know I do not, but it is obviously not up to me.


But this is very telling Eriol:



> Yes, it is too confrontational -- but the confrontation came from the non-religious camp.



Why does it matter which side it comes from? You want a religions forum, right? Not a 'forum for religious people'?

I mean which is it: a place for people of like faith to get together, or a place to discuss all faiths?


********EDIT********

Eriol posted again while I posted this one. I see he mentioned me so I'll have to read his post now.

***Second Edit***

Okay, read it.


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## Eriol

Peace! I guess you haven't read my last post before posting this, Nóm. I was, indeed, talking mostly about GG. I think your post was great, and so was your argument -- so much so that it convinced me. 

As for this:



> Why does it matter which side it comes from? You want a religions forum, right? Not a 'forum for religious people'?



Of course it matters. Because confrontation can't happen without someone starting it. I really can't see why a religious forum should upset a non-religious member any more than the "I hate Legolas" threads should upset Legolas lovers, or the Simpsons society should upset the Monty Python fans... This is not a purely Tolkien Forum by any means. And I guess we all like it that way, so that FoAT can talk about Rock'n'Roll, and I can talk about chocolate milk. 

As for this:



> I don't know you mean about "freedom of thought", do you mean freedom of speech here? Or do you imply that to deny the dedication of an entire section of TTF to religion, is to say: "You can not be religious!" or "you can not think that!"?



Read GG's post. He's upset that "this is becoming a chatting room where everyone is allowed to speak about anything". This is the attitude that I am against -- that we _should not_ be "allowed" to speak about everything.

I have something to say about your last post, and I said it in my last post - but I can repeat it here. You are right; sticking a religious forum in the front page of TTF would have such an effect; I am convinced.


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## Confusticated

When i say it doesn't matter if confrontations are started by religious or athiest members, I just mean that they are confrontations resulting from a topic all the same.

But for the record, I would also be against a Simpsons Society on the main page and I am a Simpsons Fanatic. It is not that all the people who are against a religions forum are against it because they are not religious. I think this point should be noted.

The fact you are now against it, as are others such as Nenya Evenstar, should be proof that people have reasons other than being an Athiest for being against this Religions forum.


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## Eriol

Duly noted; and agreed. I had not seen it from this "main page" angle before -- kind of dumb, eh? It is a very good argument; I just wanted to point out (and I think I did it too forcefully, sorry GG) that to oppose it on a principled stand against religious discussions because they are "explosive" is _not_ a good argument, in my opinion.

Hehe, forgive me, but your last post -- the one with the edits -- looks like the thoughts of a mad woman...



Edit: Since we agree now, I'll edit my posts -- I really think I went too far with GG, and want to apologize to him for that. There is no purpose in leaving the quarrel there. Just thought I'd warn you of that so that Nóm's and FoAT's posts do not become slightly nonsensical...


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## Lhunithiliel

Ha! What are we having here? Another little war?  

I'll tell you one thing - instead of playing "ping-pong", let's focus on the very important issue:

1/ A "Forum of Religion " - a place of believers of _any_ religion 
who can gather and discuss and exchange their religious views

OR

2/ A "Forum of Religious" - a place where believers of _any_ religion could meet and exchange views *on Tolkien* through and/or from their and *Tolkien's* religious points of view.

I, for one, am against #1/! But I think that #2/ could be quite an interesting place. As long as we have Guild of Politics (dealing with politics), the Time Lords (dealing with history) ...etc. 

The *important* thing would and should be, that we *must not* lose the "Tolkien"- track in all these various forms of interactions.
Otherwise TTF will lose its purpose!

I hope this does not happen!


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## Thorin

The problem here Gil-Galad and Nom is that you are coming across as anti-religion and not pro-Tolkien with your reasoning.

You claim that this is a Tolkien site and relgion shouldn't be a part of it. Well what about the other two dozen topics and rooms which are dedicated to absolute nonsensical discussions and nothing more than a cyber social cafe? If you are crying to remove the religous element based on Tolkien criteria, then cry to remove the rest of the useless drivel that permeates throughout this forum as well. Quit discriminating. Do away with them all or allow them.

IMO, the religion and political threads that are here are the best and most productive non-Tolkien topics on this forum. Get rid rid of most of the other non-Tolkien, mindless crap that is on here before those ones. It makes more sense to talk about such intellectual topics that effected Tolkien's writing on an intellectual site such as the TTF, then to burden it with highschool angst like, "Who's the hottest?" or "What do you think of my avatar"? reducing such a wonderful website to Degrassi High.

If the mods would listen to my input, we might avoid half the hassle. Cut this forum down to 12 rooms. All but one dedicated to Tolkien. The other for whatever comes up be it relgion, politics, Simpsons or whatever else people want to talk about.


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## Confusticated

> The problem here Gil-Galad and Nom is that you are coming across as anti-religion and not pro-Tolkien.
> 
> You all claim that this is a Tolkien site and relgion shouldn't be a part of it. Well what about the other two dozen topics and rooms which are dedicated to absolute nonsensical discussions and nothing more than a cyber social cafe? If you are crying to remove the religous element based on Tolkien, then cry to remove the rest of the useless drivel that permeates throughout this forum as well. Quit discriminating. Do away with them all or allow them.



I never claimed religion discussion should not be part of this site.

Gil-Galad and I did not say the same things.

I speak against a Religions Guild (as in a forum on the main page), not against religion threads.

If I come across that way it is because you read something into my post that was not there.


"You all claim that this is a Tolkien site and relgion shouldn't be a part of it."

I didn't though.

So you tell me to quit discriminating? Will you give my post another look?
Or at least show me where I have discriminated?

Maybe in that I do not speak for the removal of the GoP? Perhaps. It is already in place and I don't see any chance of it being removed, but if anyone wants to start a discussion of that topic I'll say exactly what I said about the idea of a religions Guild. Stuff and Bother is enough in my opinion.


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## Manveru

*NAY, NAY and NAY!!!*

I voted ''No'', not that I am against a religion in particular... I am a Christian, but... (see my reasons below).


> _Originally posted by Gil-Galad:_
> *Such place will cause a lot of explosions between members.Should I say what happened due to the Guild of Politics.Should I mention that a Religious area WILL HAVE THE SAME EFFECT!? .Politics and religion are the two things which are like a real explosives nowadays.And do you think their place is here?!!!*


I don’t really know what did happen due to the Guild of Politics... but I agree with G-G that politics and religion are ‘real explosives nowadays’. These were, are and always will be ‘hot topics’ to discuss, which cause really big problems around the world (throughout the history—that I only mention _the crusades_). For me political and religious topics are the ones I mostly dislike and try to avoid them, so... I will say no more than this: I’m strongly against these kind of forums or threads HERE... in the Realm of Tolkien and his works (no offence meant – but when I found thetolkienforum.com I jumped with joy, ‘cause I thought I finally found the place where TOLKIEN, TOLKIEN AND AGAIN ONLY TOLKIEN AND HIS WORKS ARE BEING DISCUSSED!!!).


> _Originally posted by Eriol:_
> * This is not a purely Tolkien Forum by any means.*


Oh NO... You’re serious?! So this name: ‘thetolkienforum.com’ is misleading then... And ‘me-silly-me’ thought I found at last the forum about Tolkien and only Tolkien (so I thought the name said).


> _Originally posted by Eriol:_
> *... so that FoAT can talk about Rock'n'Roll, and I can talk about chocolate milk.*


And I can talk about ‘something-else-non-related-to-the-topic’... Yeah, I know... and it’s fine by me... as long as it’s discussed in ‘Stuff and Bother’ forum (‘cause it’s the place for such a trivial topic). If one wants a religious forum, one can simply go and find it on the web and participate there... 



> _Originally posted by Thorin:_
> *You claim that this is a Tolkien site and relgion shouldn't be a part of it. Well what about the other two dozen topics and rooms which are dedicated to absolute nonsensical discussions and nothing more than a cyber social cafe? If you are crying to remove the religous element based on Tolkien criteria, then cry to remove the rest of the useless drivel that permeates throughout this forum as well. Quit discriminating. Do away with them all or allow them.*


AWAY WITH THEM ALL!! IMHO, only ‘Tolkien-related-topics’ should stay... I wrote it once, but I’ll write it again... when I wanted to talk about Tolkien and his works and related topics, I found thetolkienforum.com—I thought it’s about stuff like that... so if you want to talk about religion, politics and other stuff that is not connected with Tolkien, I suggest you find yourselves a particular forum...

So I... I say: NAY, NAY and NAY!!! (once more)


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## Scatha

I have stated this before and now will again, if religion is what you wish to discuss or make a corner for, take it to a place where it is fitting, aka some board made for that purpose.

It should *NOT* be discussed on a board dedicated to Tolkien. Especially since it has no ties with Tolkien whatsoever, which counts for more 'guilds' in the smaller guilds section.

In my opinion, these should not have been permitted in the first place.

Go find a religeous board, if you so dearly wish to express your beliefs, but leave the rest of us alone about it!!!

First you'll want a guild, preferrably major guildspace, then this entire board will slowly be turned in a religious corner, if you people keep having your way. Somewhere this kind of nonsense has to end, so I suggest we end it right here.

* NO RELIGION CORNER *

Why doesn't it surprise me to find Thorin as one of the main people to argue for it's creation?


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## Beleg

I am not against religious threads, but I can't really see the need of a seperate religion guild now. As far as I can see, the Religious threads are doing just fine in Stuff-and-bother, and there is no need for a seperate guild to be created for religious stuff. 
A seperate Guild would mean placing it on the front-page, which allready contains a lot of non-Tolkien corners for My liking. 
This is primarily a Tolkien related website, and other issues concerning the general walks of life should be discussed, but they are off secondary importance compared to the Tolkien related issues. For these issues a forum Stuff-and-Bother is created, where we can discuss all our Non-Tolkien related issues. 
If some of you think that Stuff and Bother is too light and childish a place for someone to post serious discussion, then there is The Time Lords, which is more often then not usually empty and could do with a few Religious threads. 

A seperate corner for religion would just not do anyone any long-lasting good and would serve to increase the number of redundant Guilds and Societies On TTF.


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## Eriol

Manveru -- sorry to break you this news, but this is NOT purely a Tolkien Forum. You can believe it or not. Don't take my word for it. Just as an example, there is a thread discussing the crusades in the Time Lords, this big scary topic that you mentioned -- and there was _never a problem_ with it. 

I'm sorry that you were misled by the name of the Forum. Do you want to leave it after this piece of information about the crusades thread? I hope not. 

You (and GG, and Scatha) are mixing a perfectly legitimate concern with a perfectly _illegitimate_ attitude. It's good to preserve this as a (mainly  ) Tolkien Forum; but it is horrible to say that a subject "should not be allowed". Who are you (or Scatha, or GG) to say that? I could understand if the Webmaster decreed that; it is his Forum after all. I would have no beefs with it; but my opinion is that banning non-Tolkien discussions would impoverish the place. But you? or Scatha? Or GG? Or me? Who are we to decide what should be discussed??

I find this "go find a religious board" suggestion extremely arrogant and presumptuous. I think this should be said to all of the non-Tolkien stuff around here -- from the Simpsons society (which I also like, Nóm  ) up. We would lose more (much more) than half of our sense of community this way. I don't want to find a religious board, folks -- I like to have nice discussions with my buddies from TTF. But the Council of Three ( ), Manveru, Scatha, and Gil-Galad, want to decree that I should get out of the Forum for that -- and they are saying this in the name of peace and tranquility, to "save the Forum". Amazing. Luckily the "powers-that-be" are wiser than that. 

Nóm and Beleg are showing the way here; to oppose the "watering down" of Tolkien in this Forum, but NOT to oppose freedom of speech. We have good places for religious discussions already, so good that religious discussions already take place there; but to ban religious discussions would be an astounding show of prejudice, and to ban all non-Tolkien discussions (the only reasonable stance) would be terrible to the Forum. As well as ironic -- THIS thread, Religious Guild, was a result of the peaceful thriving of many religious discussions in this Forum; if the result of peaceful discussion is the banning of them, this would be very funny.

You are speaking of what you don't know about, gentlemen. Remember -- if you don't like the thread, avoid it.


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## Thorin

> _Originally posted by Scatha _
> *I have stated this before and now will again, if religion is what you wish to discuss or make a corner for, take it to a place where it is fitting, aka some board made for that purpose......It should NOT be discussed on a board dedicated to Tolkien. Especially since it has no ties with Tolkien whatsoever, which counts for more 'guilds' in the smaller guilds section.....Go find a religeous board, if you so dearly wish to express your beliefs, but leave the rest of us alone about it!!!*


Again I say: Why just religion? There is a heck of a lot of other nonsense here that should be pared away as well. Your attitude is not only hypocritical and anti-religious, but also misinformed. Out of all the topics here, religion probably has affected Tolkien and his writing the most.


> _Originally posted by Scatha _
> *Why doesn't it surprise me to find Thorin as one of the main people to argue for it's creation? *


For your info, I have not been arguing for creation of anything, let alone a religious guild. Just trying to point out the hypocritical attitude of those arguing against any sort of relgious discussion because "this is a Tolkien website". Roll your eyes all you want but get your facts straight over your vehemently negative attitude towards anything religious. I at least am not threatened by religion or politics or any other intellectual discussion that should come my way. And if you want to argue Tolkien with me, I am more than ready for the task. 

Sorry Nom. Forgive me for lumping you in with the rest of these heretics. I guess I should follow my own advice to Scatha.


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## Lantarion

Eriol, if you find Nóm's, Gil-Galad's and other peoples' opinions on this matter arrogant or presumptuous, I also find your smug, all-knowing attitude extremely tiresome. "Luckily the "powers-that-be" are wiser than that"?? How can you express such an unfounded assumption? And if "You are speaking of what you don't know about, gentlemen" is not condescending, I don't know what is.

Now. This Forum, as has been stated several times, is called The Tolkien Forum. The name, as you sem to infer, is not confusing or misleading. This Forum is a place for people to discuss Tolkien and his works. However, I agree with you that it is impossible and unnecessary to try and focus the Forum's sphere of attention solely to Tolkien-related topics; and that is what places like Stuff and Bother and Guilds (e.g. the Prancing Pony) are for, indirectly. TTF would be, IMO, drier if we talked about nothing but Tolkien! But to make widespread discussion of Tolkien's works is the purpose of this Forum, first and foremost.

Personally, in part, I agree with Nóm that Stuff and Bother is enough. There are practically endless topics of discussion relating directly to Tolkien's works, but for the sake of diversity, we have S&B.
As far as I can see, the GoP was set up so that important, difficult non-Tolkien discussions could be undergone in a proper environment. The 'Non-Tolkien Annals of the Eldanyárë', you might say. 
Now in general I do not have a problem with discussing Non-Tolkien issues at TTF, as long as they are not the prevailing facets of the Forum! And giving a single facet its own sub-forum sets it up to a position where it is almost equal with the prevailing facet: Tolkien and his works. 

What I suggest is this: To keep Stuff and Bother as it mostly is: a place for whimsical, humorous and generally very lighthearted 'conversation'.  
Then, to appease those who wish to discuss Non-Tolkien matters here at TTF (instead of another Forum which might discuss the matter(s) in even more depth), a sister-sub-forum to S&B should be instituted, where 'deeper' and more dificult and perplexing Non-Tolkien issues can be discussed (not to apply _any_ insult to S&B, which I value indeed).

This is only a suggestion, but my opinion is that TTF has drifted too far off track with the various Guilds, Societies and such affiliations donning their own private fora for their purposes. Granted, some such Guilds require the space, because the topic of that forum is so broad (need I mention the PP?).

Now these are simply musings and suggestions; this whole issue is extremely difficult and complex, and I have tried only to show my thoughts on the matter.


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## Eriol

Sigh...

I'm getting embroiled on all kinds of discussion lately 

Lantarion, please read the posts (I hope this is not arrogant).

Scatha said that religious discussions should not be allowed. Since they are, in fact, allowed, "the powers-that-be" ARE wiser than what he proposed. If they will lose that wisdom in the future, I don't know.

"You don't know what you're talking about" -- well, perhaps this is because _they don't know what they're talking about_. I may have an "all-knowing attitude", even though I certainly do not know "all"; but I know _this_: They say that religion should be banned because it is explosive; it is not. The "meta-discussion" about the religious forum (a matter of Forum dynamics, NOT a religious discussion) that we see here is much more explosive, unfortunately, than anything I ever saw in any religious discussions.

Manveru, not I, was misled by the name of the Forum; 

As for the meat of your suggestions, I agree with them (as you might have noticed if you had read the posts). I think Nóm's argument clinches it. And I think GG's, Scatha's, and Manveru's (NOT Nóm's) stance arrogant. They want to dictate what is "proper" to the Forum. I think they should outlaw the Legolas lovers (or haters) thread next, as they are mostly Orlando Bloom lovers, and Orlando Bloom is not Tolkien.

P.S. If I "knew all", I would have noticed Nóm's point weeks ago; it was pretty dumb not to notice it. This is how it works, Lantarion -- we post what we think, and we change out thoughts as we read other posts. Fun to see me being branded a "know-it-all" after I admitted such a big mistake and changed my vote about this matter. Don't mind my "attitude" -- read the posts.


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## Manveru

*Apology, if anyone felt 'offended'...*

I only wanted to say that I'M REALLY SORRY if anybody felt offended while reading my 'allegedly arrogant' post (which was not meant by me to look like that... and I still think that it's not arrogant). 


> _Originally posted by Eriol:_
> *I'm sorry that you were misled by the name of the Forum. Do you want to leave it after this piece of information about the crusades thread? I hope not.*


Of course *NOT*


> _Originally posted by Eriol:_
> *Remember -- if you don't like the thread, avoid it.*


I will...

*peace*


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## Eriol

I'm sorry too, Manveru . Especially since we agree on the issue now .

For the record -- I never said YOU are arrogant; I never said YOUR POST is arrogant. I said this:



> _Originally posted by Eriol_
> 
> I find this "go find a religious board" suggestion extremely arrogant and presumptuous. I



I see a great difference between saying that "I think your opinions are arrogant" and what I actually wrote. Not that I'm not used to my posts being not read with care . But I thought I'd straighten it out -- it is the suggestion that people who like this idea of a Religious Guild should leave this Forum that I found arrogant. (By the way, I still do  ).

Perhaps my post came out as smug; I don't know. I can't really trust Lantarion's opinion before he really reads what I wrote. But if it is smug, then it is my fault; and a common phenomenon (with me, at least) that I am less and less guarded in my remarks the more I like the people I am addressing. When I was a newbie, I feared to sound too confident in my opinions (for I _am_ too confident in my opinions, and I know it); as I got to interact and know the people in the Forum better, I became less worried about this. It is my fault, wholly -- when I talk with friends I talk more freely. 

Sorry about that. I'll try to curb the smugness next time...

Peace it is .

EDIT: I addressed the first appearance of the word "arrogance" in my posts because that's what Lantarion complained about, unreasonably in my opinion; I found another instance, in my post answering him:



> And I think GG's, Scatha's, and Manveru's (NOT Nóm's) stance arrogant. They want to dictate what is "proper" to the Forum.



In this sentence I've been more harsh than I should, I think now; for I'm talking about their "stance", not about an idea, and therefore it might be contrued that I was attacking their personalities. What I dislike is, of course (I hope it is clear!), the _idea_ that some topics are "proper" and some are "improper" -- and that individual members can decide on that, _especially_ by outlawing a field of discussion that has thrived in the Forum for a long time.

I want to make it clear that this in no way implies that Gil-Galad or Manveru or Scatha are _arrogant persons_; or that their opinions about this idea, taken as a whole, are arrogant. It is enough to know them to say that they are definitely NOT arrogant. But I think that this particular notion of "propriety/impropriety" in the Forum should NOT be decided by individual members; and that if individual members claim that right, they are showing an arrogant attitude (almost by the definition of the word "arrogant"). Just as I would be arrogant if I said that Simpson discussions should be outlawed. 

A person can have an arrogant attitude without being an arrogant person.


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## Beleg

So we all basically agree that there is no need for a Guild of Religion?

Even though the poll shows another trend. 

Strange....


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## Eriol

Read the other 13 pages to see why, Beleg; the problem (in my opinion) is that the debate was focused only at the propriety/impropriety of religious discussion _per se_; a weak argument, as I said. It is only after 13 pages that a good argument against it (Nóm's) was posted. I'm willing to bet that when the great defenders of this idea (BranMuffin, Estella... those are the ones that come to mind) show up and read this argument they will be touched by it, even if perhaps not convinced (as I was). 

While it was a discussion on the terms that "religion is dangerous", it was a "soft" discussion, in which many examples of peaceful religious threads could be used to falsify that hypothesis; now the discussion has changed.

This poll is a photograph of months of discussions, and we (or at least I) only saw a compelling argument against it yesterday -- give it some time .


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## Beleg

You know what Eriol, I feel that the people who claim that Religious Discussion might turn rash also have a point; why because for those people who have a previous experience of this matter it is a serious hindrace since In the past, more often then not, I have seen sound and healthy religious discussion flooding with useless and angerprovoking posts, spoiling them. 
And as they say, Opinion is based on experience...and I certainly have experienced it....

[that was the main reason why I voted against this earlier (And I have been following this discussion for a while now Eriol, I was just commenting because favorable or against opinions seem to flow out in groups which is strange to me)] 

This type of thing might or might not happen, but due to the heated and emotional nature of the topics involved, It is almost inevitable that some type of quarell may break out since some people have strong opinions about religion.


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## Jesse

> _Originally posted by Scatha _
> *I have stated this before and now will again, if religion is what you wish to discuss or make a corner for, take it to a place where it is fitting, aka some board made for that purpose.
> 
> It should NOT be discussed on a board dedicated to Tolkien. Especially since it has no ties with Tolkien whatsoever, which counts for more 'guilds' in the smaller guilds section.
> 
> In my opinion, these should not have been permitted in the first place.
> 
> Go find a religeous board, if you so dearly wish to express your beliefs, but leave the rest of us alone about it!!!
> 
> First you'll want a guild, preferrably major guildspace, then this entire board will slowly be turned in a religious corner, if you people keep having your way. Somewhere this kind of nonsense has to end, so I suggest we end it right here.
> 
> NO RELIGION CORNER
> 
> Why doesn't it surprise me to find Thorin as one of the main people to argue for it's creation?  *





*I couldn't agree more, now that I think about it. Religion sturs up heated debates. If one wishes to discuss religion, especially Christianity, go to http://www.ChristianForums.com and talk there. Anywhou, TheTolkienForum should allow at least the Prayer Request Thread, The Guild of Pagans & Wiccans, & The Guild of Christians to remain. All other discussions on religion should be...

BANNED.

Unless, that is, the members discuss religion through the PM system...*


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## Confusticated

Funny. I said yesterday what I have been trying to say weeks ago in this thread, I guess it didn't hit home until I spelled out that the thing would be on the main page? 

I think no one's mind will be changed by my recent posts, Eriol. That is because I think most people were already well aware this would be on the main page. At least, to me it seems that it slipping someone's mind is an exceptional thing. Maybe I am mistaken.


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## Eriol

And I think yours is a reasonable opinion, Beleg; I agree with it. Religious discussions (as political discussions, of course) have a greater _risk_ of quarrels than non-religious or non-political. (We are discussing non-Tolkien subjects, so I won't talk about Fëanor or Legolas haters/lovers ).

I think that these kinds of discussions (religious/political) are more taxing to moderators; and I'm sure they will agree . But does this means that we have to outlaw them? 

To go, from your opinion, to saying that all religious discussions should be outlawed and people who are against that should find another Forum, is a big step, don't you think?

By the way, I never took part in a Religious Forum; I don't have this terrible experience with religious discussions, because all of them have been here. Perhaps Tolkien fans are more civilized than the average population .

I've seen the occasional flare-up, but always friendly.

That, of course, is my experience, here on TTF; and if I ever saw an "unfriendly flare-up", why, I would just leave the thread.

EDIT:



> _Posted by Nóm_
> 
> I think no one's mind will be changed by my recent posts, Eriol. That is because I think most people were already well aware this would be on the main page. At least, to me it seems that it slipping someone's mind is an exceptional thing. Maybe I am mistaken.



I think the best response to that is:



Embarrassment. Yes, it slipped my mind. Not the bare fact, of course; but the effect it would have on attracting non-Tolkienites.


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## Beorn

I think you guys should wait for the decision from the C9. Isn't it a moot point otherwise?

EDIT: (See also this post before you reply to this)


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## Beleg

> To go, from your opinion, to saying that all religious discussions should be outlawed and people who are against that should find another Forum, is a big step, don't you think?



That wouldn't be good too, won't it. 
The point is that by making a religious forum, we are showing that part of this Guild's activities is to discuss religion also, that It is sort of an obligation, and this would incourage more evid and hardcore religion discussers who only visit sites to discuss religion; thus the attention will be shifted from The discussion of Tolkien's works to Religion based threads. 



> Perhaps Tolkien fans are more civilized than the average population .



Believe me they are. Some years ago I used to go to some MSN and Yahoo, religion based chatrooms and lets just say that I can't repeat 'word to word' the daily proceedings of that forum or else I would be struck with 8 warning points. 
Not to say that all religion forums are like this, but the majority of those whome I have visited have members who tend to get overboard while discussing religion.


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## Eriol

Justifying a mistake is always ludicrous...



But in my defense, I want to say that I did not realize (duh) that the main page is the "gateway" to the Forum; perhaps because I never (even as a newbie) looked at it. I plunged right into the "Lord of the Rings" Forum, and from there I used the small thingy that leads you to all the Forums (the thing with a "go" at the right"). And therefore I never thought that people would decide to register or not based on the main page. 

As long as TTF were a closed Forum and no one could ever register in it, the Religious Guild would be a great idea.



As we still have to deal with those annoying things, newbies, I think it is best to emphasize in the main page that we want Tolkien fans, even if fledging fans; we do NOT want religious discussions for their own sake, but only as they are spurred by the members (who are already Tolkien fans, of course  ).

What else should I do to atone for my mistake?

EDIT: Agreed, Beleg; completely.


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## Confusticated

> _Originally posted by Beorn _
> *I think you guys should wait for the decision from the C9. Isn't it a moot point otherwise? *




I would think that it should never be moot to state our opinions about something that may or may not be done at TTF. Shouldn't those who are deciding about this want to hear what we have to say?

The C9 are supposed to represent the membership, so I would guess they keep a watch on this thread since this is where the members speak about it. So I think it is useful to discuss this while the C9 is making a decision.

Oh or are we just supposed to keep quiet about a topic once we know that C9 is dealing with it? In other words, let C9 make their own decisions based on their own ideas rather than hearing out the membership and taking that into consideration too?


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## Beorn

I'm sorry if I offended anyone. 

Some people are making decisions about the religion forum, before an ultimate decision regarding its coming into being has been made. Unfortunately, not everything that everyone wants can be applied to it, should it happen. There will definitely be certain restrictions on it. What I meant was that it would be much more productive to form and state your opinions after a general decision about it has been made...


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## Lantarion

Eriol I think I should apologize as well.. As it happens I did sem to read your post wrongly, so sorry if I offended you. 

And I'm sorry I missed your agreeing with my musings; I'm glad you do!  What do others think about the 'Two S&Bs' idea?

Wouldn't discussions be so much quiker and easier if everybody always understood each other perfectly?


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## Eriol

Sure! And of course I'm still interested to know if my smugness is insufferable or if you think I have any hopes in that department...



But you can confine that to a PM if you wish. Hopeless or not, I agree that I was rather smug then. 

It's glad to confirm Beleg's judgment about Tolkien fans and civility -- not for the first time, and not for the last...



and it reaches even moderators!


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## HLGStrider

> What do others think about the 'Two S&Bs' idea?



I think it is exactly the same idea I posted a while back (see my first post in this thread!).

Nobody listens to me. . .sigh. . .


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## Celebthôl

I dont think we should, there would be so many arguments and religious internet wars breaking out it would be stupid.


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## Lúthien Séregon

I think they can be civilised though, I still think the best option would be to have a trial forum for about 30 days ( during which all religious threads, like the Deity Gender or Debate about christianity get moved there ), and if it doesn't work, then the idea should just be abandoned and all threads moved back again.


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## Scatha

> _Originally posted by Thorin _
> *Again I say: Why just religion? There is a heck of a lot of other nonsense here that should be pared away as well. Your attitude is not only hypocritical and anti-religious, but also misinformed. Out of all the topics here, religion probably has affected Tolkien and his writing the most.
> For your info, I have not been arguing for creation of anything, let alone a religious guild. Just trying to point out the hypocritical attitude of those arguing against any sort of relgious discussion because "this is a Tolkien website". Roll your eyes all you want but get your facts straight over your vehemently negative attitude towards anything religious. I at least am not threatened by religion or politics or any other intellectual discussion that should come my way. And if you want to argue Tolkien with me, I am more than ready for the task. *




Talk about getting your info straight, i did state that it was MY belief that all non-tolkien related stuff shouldn't be here, not just religion based, therefor no discrimination took place. READ before you comment.

I never stated to be threatened by religion, but just that you should not force your religion onto others, instead to leave people alone on what they wish to believe in. * That *is my main beef with religion and why I have no further need for it.

Now I am allowed to express my personal view on something, regardless whether you agree with it or not, Thorin. Just as long as I do not discriminate, which I didn't. This you would have known had you bothered to read what I actually stated, before starting to scream that you are being discriminated.

That also goes for the rest of you, who accuse me of doing so.
Read before you point a finger.



> Sorry Nom. Forgive me for lumping you in with the rest of these heretics. I guess I should follow my own advice to Scatha.



Btw, I do have a belief, therefor please do not call me a heretic, simply because it does not coincide with your belief.

Thorin, anytime you wish to discuss Tolkien, bring it on. I do not fear christianity or any other religion, nor the fact that you are a christian. Most of my family is sharing your belief and I have no problem with it.

My apologies if my words seemed harsh, but I would like to see these boards intact and preferrably without any threads not directly relating to Tolkien's work.

I expressed my personal view of this here topic and have said nothing discriminative. If my words hurt someone, I am sorry, but it is my belief.


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## Scatha

> _Originally posted by Eriol _
> *And I think GG's, Scatha's, and Manveru's (NOT Nóm's) stance arrogant. They want to dictate what is "proper" to the Forum. I think they should outlaw the Legolas lovers (or haters) thread next, as they are mostly Orlando Bloom lovers, and Orlando Bloom is not Tolkien.*




Sorry to attack your rant, Eriol, but you make it very hard not to.
I have posted several times inside my guild, that I absolutely detest legolas lovers, simply because they like OB's looks, which had nothing to do with tolkien at all!!!!

Read above and show me where expressing my views on this is arrogant. I did not dictate, I voiced my personal view.


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## Bethelarien

Well.

I was all for this at the beginning when I first read about it. I thought it seemed like a wonderful idea.

I guess I thought wrong.

Guys, this is pathetic. There is absolutely _no need_ to argue. If we as members cannot even _discuss_ doing this without arguing and accusing people, then why make things worse?

All of this only causes me to agree that to do something like this would be...well, self-destructive. Yes, I am a Christian, and yes, I would like to have a place to discuss things, but if we can't all act like adults (I realize many of us are not adults, but we can at least act like it), then forget it. I cannot condone anything that only leads to contention and hurt feelings.

And please, guys, be respectful of others. Just because they voice an opinion does not mean they are trying to argue, or that they are being arrogant.

End of rant.


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## Eriol

Scatha, you can join the long line of people attacking my rant, I don't mind .

I thought this was arrogant:



> It should NOT be discussed on a board dedicated to Tolkien. Especially since it has no ties with Tolkien whatsoever, which counts for more 'guilds' in the smaller guilds section.
> 
> In my opinion, these should not have been permitted in the first place.



I still do. "These should not have been permitted in the first place" is dictating; or at least a will to dictate. 

OB was just an example, I did not know it would strike a chord with you -- sorry for that. 

And, as I said, I find the "go find a religious board" suggestion also arrogant. It means, in effect, that you think that people who enjoy religious discussions have no right to do it here. "Leave us alone!", you said; well, you can always avoid religious threads. No one forces you to go there.

This is what I thought as I read your post. Now that you say that this is just a personal view, I'm not sure what to think of it. If you had the power to ban religious discussions, would you do it? If you would, then I still think it is arrogant . If you wouldn't, that is, if your opinion was stated just to further the discussion, and not to influence the decision-making in any direction, then it is not arrogant.

So, right now, I don't know if your opinion is arrogant or not. It depends on what do you intend to do with it.

EDIT: Bethelarien, people can be arrogant and have humble opinions on a given subject; or they can be humble and have an arrogant opinion on a given subject. When I say that an opinion is arrogant, it does not mean that the person saying it is an arrogant person. (I said this before). 

Scatha is NOT an arrogant person (I also said this before). But he had an arrogant opinion about this; or at least his opinion would be arrogant if enforced. 

AS for the arguing, I agree; it is pointless now. I apologized to everybody for the tone of my post; well, I can do it again. As Lantarion said, it would be quicker and easier if we did not misunderstand each other -- what's the fun in that?


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## Scatha

Thank you, Beth. 

If everyone would be as wise as you, this entire discussion wouldn't have been needed.


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## Gil-Galad

> _Originally posted by Beorn _
> *I'm sorry if I offended anyone.
> 
> Some people are making decisions about the religion forum, before an ultimate decision regarding its coming into being has been made. Unfortunately, not everything that everyone wants can be applied to it, should it happen. There will definitely be certain restrictions on it. What I meant was that it would be much more productive to form and state your opinions after a general decision about it has been made... *


From your words I would infer that a decision had been made and it says that there will be such corner.

My previous post was too rude,but that's the part of my character=I always say what I think.
And I will state my opinion again.
About 60 % of the TTF is non-Tolkien stuff,a religious area will make it 70%........do we need that?
And if we need it then why this place is called TTF?
I'm not telling members should not talk about religion.Yes, they are welcome to talk about religion...............but let it be only as a part of the contextual meaning of Tolkien's works and world. We have such threads and ok,we could make a special place for discussion religion topics,but ONLY IF THEY ARE CONNECTED WITH TOLKIEN!
And Thorin you are right there are lots of things that do not have place here,but why there should be made another one?Isn't it enough?Or we want 70% non-Tolkien stuff.
Finally,I just want to warn you,a religious corner,like the Guild of Politics,will be a place of confrontation.

I'll repeat it again:
It's about Tolkien,nothing else!


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## Scatha

Well Eriol, I stated "in my opinion", before i said they shouldn't have been permitted. 


I happen to believe a board should stay true to it's original intent, which is to discuss tolkien's work and all that comes with it that is linked to it directly. Whether or not Tolkien was a christian does not interest me, as this was not the reason for writing what he did.

If I would have been the owner of the board, yes indeed I would not have permitted it, but not because of personal reasons, yet merely on the ground that most people cannot discuss the topic, without things turning into one giant insulting match. I have seen this happen on a number of boards I used to frequent, so I have a good reason for stating it.

Those mature enough to discuss religion, without it getting out of hand, should be free to do so.

If that makes me arrogant, so be it, yet at least I would not state anything else just to keep the peace. I am a very honest person, sometimes too bluntly so, but honest nontheless.


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## Eriol

And now I don't think GG is being arrogant 

(Probably the most regrettable words I've ever written on TTF...)

I'll tell you what -- this distinction between arrogant persons and arrogant ideas is clear in my mind, but I see that people can misinterpret it easily. Exchange all of my uses of "arrogant" for "extreme". I think that solves it.



> If that makes me arrogant, so be it, yet at least I would not state anything else just to keep the peace. I am a very honest person, sometimes too bluntly so, but honest nontheless.



I think I should put in my signature that Scatha, GG, and Manveru are not arrogant persons.


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## Scatha

No harm done Eriol. Just making a point here.


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## Thorin

> _Originally posted by Scatha _
> *If I would have been the owner of the board, yes indeed I would not have permitted it, but not because of personal reasons, yet merely on the ground that most people cannot discuss the topic, without things turning into one giant insulting match. I have seen this happen on a number of boards I used to frequent, so I have a good reason for stating it.*


But do you have a good reason for stating it as it pertains to TTF? I think not. I agree with what someone else earlier said (Eriol?), that those who seem to assume that burning at the stake and Diet of Worms councils will pop out of nowhere once religion is being discussed are those who don't even look at these threads, never mind participate in them.

The threads I have seen (Even the Celebthol/Eriol/Malbeth controversy on "A skeptics view of Christianity"), and participated in ("Hell", "Question on the Bible") have been in complete control and tasteful throughout. Don't let your bias against religious discussions taint the idea of having them on TTF, because nothing that has happened here should give you that idea. 

Hence the contradiction in your next statement:


> _Originally posted by Scatha _
> *Those mature enough to discuss religion, without it getting out of hand, should be free to do so.*


Exactly what has been happening all along on TTF, so what's the issue then? And how can we discuss it if you want it banned? 

However, I would gladly drop the subject if Eru Pence the Webmaster and the Mods get rid of all the baggage (including the ridiculous Guilds) and make only ONE forum room for anything off topic of Tolkien. I will state here my idea of the forum arrangement

*Member Information* - Anything the mods or WM want to mention to the members of the Forum, plus comments and suggestions from TTF members.

*Tolkien Book Rooms* 
The Hobbit
LoTR
Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales
History of Middle Earth
Other Tolkien Works

*Movie Rooms* 
FoTR
TTT
RoTK

*Life of Tolkien Room* - Anything relating to Tolkien's life

*Miscellaneous Room* - Anything under the sun that doesn't relate to Tolkien

There you go. 12 rooms total. Simple, easy to manage and less confusing then the 50 plus rooms we have now.

Should we open a thread on possible layouts of the forum and then submit them to the moderators?


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## Celebthôl

> _Originally posted by Lúthien Séregon _
> *I think they can be civilised though, I still think the best option would be to have a trial forum for about 30 days ( during which all religious threads, like the Deity Gender or Debate about christianity get moved there ), and if it doesn't work, then the idea should just be abandoned and all threads moved back again. *



Have you ever known religious talks to not get out of hand?

The one between Eriol, Myself, You and Elgee, is barely there, and it has nearly slipped up quite a few times. It is impossible to have a completely none argumentitive discussion on religions, it will never happen.


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## Eriol

And why is argumentative automatically bad, Thôl? We have almost 400 posts of a very argumentative discussion in the skeptics thread, but I never felt the slightest anger or annoyance towards you; and I think you could say the same. Argumentative is fun; don't you think? I don't like to talk with people who agree with me, at least not all the time .

"Have you ever known religious talk not to get out of hand?", you ask. Well, yes; plenty. Protestant Reformation; Crusades; Question on the Bible; Hell; etc. etc.

Personally, I am opposed to Thorin's idea because for me, the more rooms we have, the merrier. But I think it makes sense; and I would not be angry or upset if it were implemented. I really don't care much about the organization, as long as we are free to talk about whatever we want.


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## Beleg

> (including the ridiculous Guilds)



And what does this statement suppose to mean? 
Do you mean that _All_ guilds are ridikulus? 
In your proposed plan, you leave no place for Guilds..
Am I to suppose you think that Guilds, Tolkienrelated or not, are a waste of time?


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## Scatha

Many of the guilds serve a purpose, even though some may seen inactive at the moment, that does not mean they do not have their values. The topics within these guilds are generally tolkienrelated. Much beautiful things sprout from within these guilds, such as the tolkienwiki and character databases, aided by the members of the artists guild to spice up the pages. So don't even start that the guilds do not have a purpose here, for you are truely biased and misguided in your opinion then.  

This is what I was talking about earlier, first the proposition arises (through this poll) to have a religious corner, now Thorin here wants to abolish the guilds and totally rearrange the boards to his liking, where does this end? Perhaps when nothing of the old board is left and it's members have gone off in search of more pleasant places to go?  

What will be next, the dissolvement of the MERPG, because you do not like to roleplay?? 

If you dislike the boards the way they are, what keeps you here then?

*Can we return to the topic of this thread now, without more needless (read senseless) changes of topic, like that posted by Thorin?? *



> But do you have a good reason for stating it as it pertains to TTF? I think not. I agree with what someone else earlier said (Eriol?), that those who seem to assume that burning at the stake and Diet of Worms councils will pop out of nowhere once religion is being discussed are those who don't even look at these threads, never mind participate in them.



Yes Thorin, I have a very good reason, it is because of people as yourself, who attack everything they do not agree with, or that doesn't fit according to their religion, without any respect for the person or his views. Constantly picking someone's posts apart like you do, wrapped in snide remarks and concealed personal attacks, is plain rude, amoral from someone who claims to be a christian and doesn't fit with this line from the bible at all:

"Respect thy neighbors" (or along those lines)

So far you have shown yourself to be a bigot, that lashes out at everyone that does not share your views. That is not what a good christian should do.

Quite a shame that a 'heretic', as you so nicely stated, has to tell you this. You seem to have a good intellect, which can only think rigidly. Flexibility, curtesy and openmindedness is something that not all people possess, i guess?


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## Thorin

> _Originally posted by Scatha _
> *So don't even start that the guilds do not have a purpose here, for you are truely biased and misguided in your opinion then. *


From what I've seen, the Guilds do nothing more than take up space and don't function any differently for any different purpose then what I've seen in Stuff and Bother, Bag End, and the Green Dragon Inn. Why have 50 different rooms you can summarize into 12? 



> _Originally posted by Scatha _
> *This is what I was talking about earlier, first the proposition arises (through this poll) to have a religious corner, now Thorin here wants to abolish the guilds and totally rearrange the boards to his liking, where does this end? Perhaps when nothing of the old board is left and it's members have gone off in search of more pleasant places to go?  *


Before you get high and mighty, Scatha (talk about scathing and rude remarks to people), I've probably been around this forum longer than anyone else here (save about two or three and even before my current time here as Thorin) and what I've proposed for the forum was pretty much how it was when the movies were first coming out and it worked perfectly fine. 



> _Originally posted by Scatha _
> *Can we return to the topic of this thread now, without more needless (read senseless) changes of topic, like that posted by Thorin?? So far you have shown yourself to be a bigot, that lashes out at everyone that does not share your views.....Yes Thorin, I have a very good reason, it is because of people as yourself, who attack everything they do not agree with, or that doesn't fit according to their religion, without any respect for the person or his views. Constantly picking someone's posts apart like you do, wrapped in snide remarks and concealed personal attacks, is plain rude, amoral from someone who claims to be a christian*


 Amazing words considering that I've never done this to you and you've pretty much done it to me within the last two posts. Where has all this "judgment" come from? Anybody here who actually knows me and how I've conducted myself on this forum the last two years want to comment on, what seems to me, this unfair, judgmental ignorance?

Apparently, Scatha has some serious issues with myself considering I've had virtually no contact with him(her?) at all on this forum. Wonder where all this came from? Were my last two posts against Scatha anything like what I've been judged by?


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## Eriol

I feel guilty, after that "arrogant" problem -- I feel as if I have contributed to the excitement around here. Since I am in good terms (I think) with both of you, guys, I'll make a proposal to both of you -- let it slide. There is no "objective reason" for this quarrel to go on, Thorin's proposal is just what he stated to be, a proposal, and Scatha's opinions are, as he stated, simply his opinions. I think it is best to save the arguing skills for a time when something is actually being decided (I think that was the gist of Beorn's last posts). 

Whenever I do this (trying to stop a budding -- or perhaps not so budding -- fight) I usually get bashed from both sides. I don't mind .

I'll be ready to defend the both of you against the other's statements; that's how I see you guys. Save the rhetoric for real, nasty opponents -- it's a pity to see you doing it on each other.


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## Uminya

Stop it, both of you and everyone, or I'll bring the Big Stick out of retirement.

Each is entitled to their own opinion; feel free to discuss, but don't dare to bash, lest ye be bashed thyself (not always by the person ye based first).

And a note to Scatha, Thorin was here from "Way-Back-When" and knows how the "old" forum really was, and could probably go on a long spiel about it, as could I. Let's not be silly, mkay?

Now...go back to playing nice, or no ice cream for either of you!



EDIT: Oh, and Thorin, I don't think your idea of chaging is a good one...in fact, the Mods and WM are likely to shoot it down faster than a hang-glider with an American flag on it flying over Baghdad in 1991


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## Grond

Okay, okay. First off, I'm a devout Christian who wishes everyone new my Lord as their Saviour... but having said that... this is The Tolkien Forum. I've never liked having the Political Guild here and I like the idea of a Religious/Religion Guild even less. There are many places on the internet where one can discuss facets of religion and I feel it unnecessary here. 

I also believe that our Religous beliefs prevade our behavour and our persona. People will know where we stand without us having to be obtrusive or argumentative. (Anyone interested in Jesus and my belief in Him can PM me .)

Now, there is definately room in the forum to discuss some Religion but only from the perspective of how JRRT's own Catholic background influenced his work. 

Now I've said enough.


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## Thorin

> _Originally posted by Ciryaher _
> *EDIT: Oh, and Thorin, I don't think your idea of chaging is a good one...in fact, the Mods and WM are likely to shoot it down faster than a hang-glider with an American flag on it flying over Baghdad in 1991  *


LOL! Heck, with an American flag on it ANYWHERE! Just kidding (Catch that Scatha? Just kidding!)

Seriously, though. No matter what the format, don't you think that some paring down really needs to happen? As far as Guilds are concerned (notice the compromise, Scatha), pare them down then! What's next? Guild of Astronauts? Guild of Britany Spears Fans (all one of you)? At the least have only Guilds of the peoples of ME (Elves, Men, Orcs, Wizards, Hobbits, Dwarves). Not even 'bigoted'! All the races included!  

Grond! Good to see you my old friend. Don't you miss the good old days of the forum? Where the heck are our old foes to fight with over the movies?


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## Lhunithiliel

Thorin, 
I personally have learned to respect a member here on these boards NOT for them just being around but for what they are really doing to go deeper in studying Tolkien and to exchange knowledge and to help people who have had their first contact with the world of Tolkien ! 
So, I find your remarks to Scatha at least non-polite! ... 



> _Thorin:_
> From what I've seen, the Guilds do nothing more than take up space and don't function any differently for any different purpose ...etc...


This is nonsense!  
And I wonder why people here waste their efforts and time to even counter your ....hmmmm.... (I'd better not put a "label") ......posts!!


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## Uminya

Thorin, I believe all the "old foes" are banned... 

And only the major guilds get a section of their own. If people want to make their own little guilds in one conglomerated place, why stop them? People come here for whatever reason, but they cannot avoid the name Tolkien, beckoning them at every turn and corner. This is less of a forum than it used to be and has become an actual community, and there's no way you can change it back, no matter how hard you try. Simply reorganizing the threads would be mind-bogglingly time-consuming and tedious; forcing people to remove their community as they know it will be impossible.

And although both you and I long for the Good Ol' Days, we can't fool ourselves into thinking that we can have that back. TTF is a bustling community now, and it's not going to go back to the quiet little forum it used to be, and I don't think that I'd want anyone to try to bend it back in that direction.

People come here to learn and have a good time, primarily, and if we give them a learning experience that is enjoyable, I think we've done a good job. Granted, certain things (such as bars and other 'chatty' places) aren't much on learning, but not everyone likes to discuss and debate most of the time; they might only do it every once in a blue moon, even. But they're here, to stay I should think.

The truth of the matter is that many of the old arguments that I got involved with (back when I was active in the book forums and nowhere else) are repeating, and everything seems to be something I know already. By branching out in new direction to match the growth of our community, we ensure that people don't get bored and just quit. They find a new topic, a new area to learn, discuss, debate, and decide upon.

I feel that the Guild of Religion, like the Guild of Politics was, is a controversy for a time. With proper moderation (I personally volunteer to watch the Religious and Political guilds) there will be no major problems. It's not as if warnings can't be issued, points accumulated, posts editted, and offenders banned. I think most people are intelligent enough to not go too far in their insults/burning. In the 4 years I've been here, I only recall 5 bannings of active members because of insulting. Five out of many thousands isn't a bad figure, and I think we're safe enough in our sanity to attempt a Guild of Religion.

Wow, long spiel, but I think I've said my piece. Hope that convinces someone of something other than the fact that I've lost my mind


----------



## Scatha

You're right, Cir.  Good to see you back.

Eriol, whenever I need a forefighter, i'll know where to find you. You're an upstanding person and i like having you around. 

Thorin, we seem to have gotten off on the wrong foot. Why don't we try to avoid that in future, shall we? Among the things that irked me, was the post that the guilds just take up space. Now the Guild of Elves is my puppy nowadays and I strive hard to maintain it and turn it into something worthwhile for it's members. Seeing it stated as a waste of space is very hard to swallow. I agree that there are too many 'guilds' around that serve no purpose here, but mine certainly isn't one of them.

Grond, i loved that post of yours and totally agree with it, though I wasn't able to word it that way, as english is not my native language. That may mean it lacks the nuances you are able to make. You voiced your view and partially mine as well. 

I'll shut up now, but will follow this thread closely.


----------



## Celebthôl

> _Originally posted by Eriol _
> *And why is argumentative automatically bad, Thôl? We have almost 400 posts of a very argumentative discussion in the skeptics thread, but I never felt the slightest anger or annoyance towards you; and I think you could say the same. Argumentative is fun; don't you think? I don't like to talk with people who agree with me, at least not all the time .
> 
> "Have you ever known religious talk not to get out of hand?", you ask. Well, yes; plenty. Protestant Reformation; Crusades; Question on the Bible; Hell; etc. etc.
> 
> Personally, I am opposed to Thorin's idea because for me, the more rooms we have, the merrier. But I think it makes sense; and I would not be angry or upset if it were implemented. I really don't care much about the organization, as long as we are free to talk about whatever we want. *



5 Posts later and it nearly got out of hand, Cir nearly brought out the rod of correction.
Where religion is involved there is always violence or some such thing close behind, and it stands on the edge of a knife. I dont like the idea of it.
Where there are religious difference of opinions, there will be in some way anger and hate. Though our debate, Eri is holding on still  (I like to think it is a reflection on the debaters  ) And no, i havent felt anger or hate or anything like that toward you Eri  though a little frustraition sometimes. But it passes


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## Lantarion

> Where there are religious difference of opinions, there will be in some way anger and hate.


Sorry, I just have to contest that. Only closed, fanatic and stubborn people would, IMO, feel anger and hate if somebody's religious views simply differed from their own! Tolerance is something every person in the world should excercise.
Frustration is something some devout believers might feel in an instance where opinions or views difer, but anything more is, IMO, wrong.

But maybe you just worded that sentence badly, Thôl. No harm done.


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## Celebthôl

Yes, i did, sorry, i no wot i mean  doubtful you can work it out....


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## Eriol

> _Originally posted by Celebthôl _
> *5 Posts later and it nearly got out of hand, Cir nearly brought out the rod of correction. *



Yes, and this is NOT a religious discussion -- it is a discussion about Forum organization... does that mean something? 














I don't think it does. But the ominous question is funny .


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## Celebthôl

> _Originally posted by Eriol _
> *Yes, and this is NOT a religious discussion -- it is a discussion about Forum organization... does that mean something?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think it does. But the ominous question is funny . *



Muahahahahahahahahah!!! 

But it is about religious stuff....


----------



## Beorn

> _Originally posted by Lantarion _
> Tolerance is something every person in the world *should* excercise.



...but not everyone does. You can't make people be tolerant.


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## Celebthôl

> _Originally posted by Beorn _
> *...but not everyone does. You can't make people be tolerant. *



And that is when fights and things break out.


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## Thorin

> _Originally posted by Ciryaher _
> *And although both you and I long for the Good Ol' Days, we can't fool ourselves into thinking that we can have that back. TTF is a bustling community now, and it's not going to go back to the quiet little forum it used to be, and I don't think that I'd want anyone to try to bend it back in that direction....People come here to learn and have a good time, primarily, and if we give them a learning experience that is enjoyable, I think we've done a good job. Granted, certain things (such as bars and other 'chatty' places) aren't much on learning, but not everyone likes to discuss and debate most of the time; they might only do it every once in a blue moon, even. But they're here, to stay I should think.*



Okay. I can accept that. However, if that is the case, then there should be no issue with religious issues and they should be accepted. It is hypocritical for someone to believe the way Cir does (that our forum is branching into a community, not a debate forum) and whine about having religion here. And those people (like myself) who'd rather have it back to Tolkien but cannot have it that way, then must accept that many topics and threads, including RELIGION will occur and we must, therefore, deal with it or leave if we don't like it (I am including myself here as well). I can deal with 'who's the hottest', or ' how many of you like so and so' on our forum. Can those who disagree with religion handle having religious discussion as well? 

And if what Ciryaher is saying is true, and we have the Guild of Politics and White Council and Time Lords, then there should be no issue with a Guild of Religion. Logically, anything goes. Why should religion be different? 

From what I've seen, the religion threads are handled quite nicely without many of the nay-sayers. I have seen no burning, blasting or rudeness on them. Why don't some of you join and ensure that none of this occurs if you are so concerned? Or for some of you does your vehemence come down to just not liking religion? Lets be honest now.


----------



## Celebthôl

> _Originally posted by Thorin _
> * Or for some of you does your vehemence come down to just not liking religion? Lets be honest now. *



Ill be honest, i hate religion. Very much.


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## Scatha

> _Originally posted by Thorin _
> * Why don't some of you join and ensure that none of this occurs if you are so concerned? Or for some of you does your vehemence come down to just not liking religion? Lets be honest now. *




To be bluntly honest, Thorin, I don't like what religion has done to this world. To many wars have been fought in the name of religion with a high number of senseless killing, for in every religion there is a sole deity that rules. This deity, whether his name is Allah, God, Christ, or even Moise, is one and the same 'person'. Love would be the only good name to describe this 'god'. The trouble with religion is that there are too many of them and each has it's own interpretation of it, which often causes people to argue and bicker, where there should be no point in it. That is my reason that I do not share the same belief as my family does. Therefor I would also be the wrong person to join such a guild, even though I probably could 'moderate' it without letting my personal view interfere with that.

Is this honest enough for you, dear dwarf? 

I do agree to your point of the pointless existance of some guilds, as they have nothing in common with the works of the godfather of modern fantasy.


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## Uminya

Hate religion? You can dislike it, disapprove, or just simply not follow it, but to hate religion as an institute is to make oneself no better than a fundamentalist theist, the object of your hatred of whom you are the object of hatred. Hatred gets you nowhere, regardless of whom you hate, and I mean that in every sense.

Anyways, we already have discussions on religion. Why not give those discussions a place to conglomerate and make it easier to keep an eye on. The argument against having a forum for it is, in my opinion, pointless because we already have the threads and we will continue to have them (unless you'd like to have them all deleted).

I restate that there ARE punishments for flaming and insulting, and so there is nothing to worry about, considering the low amount of flaming and insulting that goes on in *current* religious threads.


----------



## Celebthôl

I didnt used to hate it, but as Scatha say's it has caused so much trouble, if the world did not have religion, think just how much better it would be.
I do not hate the Gods and things: just the way people use reigions for excuses to fight wars, the way religion has taken over many of the population of the worlds lives, and how they do things in the name of God and to help the homeless and less fortunate, yet they have massive gold Altars and things.
Religion is another word for corruption nowadays. It should be abolished.
It is the only thing i have ever truely hated.


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## Eriol

> _Originally posted by Celebthôl _
> *Religion is another word for corruption nowadays. It should be abolished.
> It is the only thing i have ever truely hated. *



And you don't even realize that your sentence means "it should be replaced with MY religion".

Funny.


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## Celebthôl

> _Originally posted by Eriol _
> *And you don't even realize that your sentence means "it should be replaced with MY religion".
> 
> Funny. *



Not at all, i dont have a religion, i just have a belief.

My belief tells me to live life how i want, not run by some religion.
By the way Eri, the journey for ultimate knowledge, isnt a thing we HAVE to do or we get thrown into the bowels of hell, we just start over again if we choose not to do it. (But that is not for here)


----------



## Lúthien Séregon

> Religion is another word for corruption nowadays. It should be abolished.
> It is the only thing i have ever truely hated.



I pretty much agree, it can have it's assets perhaps if it gives people comfort, but it's caused just too much destruction, misunderstanding, hate, indifference, pain and hurt tempers or emotions. It's the main reason why wars are started - and it all seems so unnecessary that so much hate can arise from different opinions, because in the end, they're only beliefs.


----------



## Scatha

To be exact, Celebthol, I wasn't the one who spoke these words for the first time, but adopted it as my own, as it words perfectly how I view things.

The person to speak those words for the first time, was a muslim by the name of Saladin, who most of you will know as the enemy in the crusades.

Very wise words for someone that was considered a heathen or a heretic in those days, isn't it?




> just the way people use reigions for excuses to fight wars, the way religion has taken over many of the population of the worlds lives, and how they do things in the name of God and to help the homeless and less fortunate, yet they have massive gold Altars and things.



That counts mostly for the richest church in all time, which is the catholic church, aka the Vatican. Their basements are filled with priceless relics and even the original works of Leonardo da Vinci, including the book he used to sketch his inventions.

The same church that preaches to help the less fortunate, but sits on a wealth that could possibly remedy the issue by themselves. A lot of these relics were gathered in the crusades, I might add.

Now don't jump me for stating this, but does this not seem somewhat hypocritic?


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## Celebthôl

Because christianity cant accept guys like him

I saw about him on the TV, wasnt he supposed to sigh some contract to stop the fighting?


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## Scatha

Until a certain point in the crusades, Saladin and Richard Lionheart had regular contact and were putting together a deal to stop the war.

They were both betrayed by what they call: The old man of the mountain. A fanatic religious sekt that tried to kill them both, thus made the two suspicious men enemies once again.


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## Celebthôl

Ahhh, i see, i caught the end of it when the Lionheart was captured just after wading to shore in his armour or somthing...i wasnt 100% focused on it. (Opps this doesnt belong in this thread )


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## Scatha

PM me if you want the exact answer to that, Celebthol.


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## Eriol

> Now don't jump me for stating this, but does this not seem somewhat hypocritic?



I won't jump you; I will invite you to enjoy the wonderful freedom of TTF and open a thread so that we can talk about it.



Or perhaps you can dig up an old thread of Ancalagon (if I'm not mistaken) about it; try a search on Ancalagon and Church and you should find it. Post your opinions there and we'll talk.


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## Scatha

*grins*

Now there's an invitation that is very hard to pass up on. 
Expect me to post it soon.


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## HLGStrider

> Not at all, i dont have a religion, i just have a belief



Religion is just belief with ceremony and tradition. I say that religion will exist as long as there is belief in a god because as long as people believe there is a god they will want to relate with him, worship him, or discuss him. One's religion is ones way of doing things.





> Because christianity cant accept guys like him


Yes, one quote is all it takes, really, to make a guy unacceptable. . .

I still think the crusades had very little to do with Christianity and a lot to do with politics. ..everyone was in there for a different reason, however. . .and of course it depends on the crusade.

He was also a very ruthless general. Interesting fellow really. . .Though I'm afraid most of what I know of him is from the book "The Talisman" which is fiction and probably not all that historically acurate.













However, this is all off topic, and if you don't want a place to rant about religion wrong (which is one thing you could do in this place) then don't do it here.


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## Celebthôl

> Religion is just belief with ceremony and tradition. I say that religion will exist as long as there is belief in a god because as long as people believe there is a god they will want to relate with him, worship him, or discuss him. One's religion is ones way of doing things.



I have no ceremony, I do not need to relate to God, I believe in God and need no religion.



> Yes, one quote is all it takes, really, to make a guy unacceptable. . .






> I still think the crusades had very little to do with Christianity and a lot to do with politics. ..everyone was in there for a different reason, however. . .and of course it depends on the crusade.



Or society 




> He was also a very ruthless general. Interesting fellow really. . .Though I'm afraid most of what I know of him is from the book "The Talisman" which is fiction and probably not all that historically acurate.



He was a brilliant general from what i saw on him...


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## Gil-Galad

> _Originally posted by Scatha _
> *I don't like what religion has done to this world. To many wars have been fought in the name of religion with a high number of senseless killing, for in every religion there is a sole deity that rules. This deity, whether his name is Allah, God, Christ, or even Moise, is one and the same 'person'. Love would be the only good name to describe this 'god'. The trouble with religion is that there are too many of them and each has it's own interpretation of it, which often causes people to argue and bicker, where there should be no point in it. *


I agree with you scatha!What is more I like to call the Catholic Church-"The Greatest corporation in the world".You can say I'm a fool for saying such words,but the Catholic church is the one who caused most casualties because of its interests and cruel intentions?Just remember how many were executed,how many wars became a fact due to the Catholic Church,how many lands and money and gold was taken by it throughout the years........
That's a fact.But I don't want to go deeper in this topic.


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## Eriol

> _Originally posted by Gil-Galad _
> *I agree with you scatha!What is more I like to call the Catholic Church-"The Greatest corporation in the world".You can say I'm a fool for saying such words,but the Catholic church is the one who caused most casualties because of its interests and cruel intentions?Just remember how many were executed,how many wars became a fact due to the Catholic Church,how many lands and money and gold was taken by it throughout the years........
> That's a fact.But I don't want to go deeper in this topic. *



I do . But I'm waiting for Scatha to open his thread about it; and you can come too, GG.


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## Gil-Galad

> _Originally posted by Eriol _
> *I do . But I'm waiting for Scatha to open his thread about it; and you can come too, GG. *


We'll see.


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## BranMuffin

Wow I'm gone for a couple of weeks and the poll completely changes on me. But it still is close...


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## Arebeth

> _Originally posted by Celebthôl _
> *I believe in God and need no religion.*



I agree. For me it's all between God and us and ceremonies has nothing to do with that. But some people can't just believe in God without being told what they have to do to "be on the right path".
I just realised that maybe I should stop calling myself a Christian...


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## HLGStrider

A religion is just a set of beliefs about god normally entertwined with ceremony. . .so unless you don't have beliefs about god, you have a religion. You just may not have an "official" one.

If you believe in Jesus Christ and that he saved you from your sins you are officially a Christian in that you believe what they do. 

If you don't, even if you go to a Christian church or do the other religious things, you aren't a Christian.

Pretty simple.

Doesn't have anything to do with ceremonies. Just belief.


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## Elendil3119

Just out of curiosity (or possibly exasperation ), has the C9 finished deliberating on this matter yet?


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## Nenya Evenstar

They have . . . just making you all wait patiently for an answer. We are strongly advocating the fact that patience is a virtue and few have it. We feel that this needs to be cultivated more on this forum, and are thus forcing cultivation.  Ok, so forget that. 

Actually, Elbereth is in charge of making the announcement. The rest of the C9 does not wish to step on her toes . . . she should be speaking soon.


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## Elendil3119

Well, we have been quite patient so far. It's been a whole month since somebody posted asking that question! But it's good to know that there has been a decision made.


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## Nenya Evenstar

I know . . . I was just kidding.


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## Wonko The Sane

*Announcement from the C9*

The decisions is here!

I know Elbe was supposed to post this but she's been really busy lately and she has just so much going on that I decided to give her a break and post it for her.

Our decision for the Guild of Religion has been made. 

Our answer is: "Yes. With lots of conditions."

It is our hope that you will discuss topics relating to Tolkien and his works in the context of Religion, but we also realise that other topics of general religious discussion will take place. We will not limit you in the topics you can make, but we'd like to encourage religious discussions relating to Tolkien as well as those unrelated. Please keep in mind that religious topics can tend to get out of hand and escalate to hurtful arguments more easily than others, but will not forbid it unless there seems to be a problem arising because of it.

"the Guild would discuss philosophical, religious, moral and ethical matters within the context of Tolkien's works and the man himself"~Mrs. Maggot

While the above quote is not limiting, it is a strong suggestion.  We hope you'll remember Tolkien's work in your discussions!

Here are the following conditions for the guild:


You must submit to constant monitoring, and you must realise that final decision on what can or cannot be said lies with the mods and WM
There will be NO bashing of other people's religions, of other people, or of groups of people.
This forum must NOT be used as a means of trying to force your religious beliefs on others
There will be an initial trial period, to make sure that it doesn't degrade into nasty arguments
You must remain mature and understand that disagreement with your opinions is not necessarily an attack on your person
This is not a free-for-all of religious discussion, you must remain level-headed and respect other people's opinions.
Guild members must be aware of their obligation to one another and to the forum as a whole regarding the extra care that they must take to be conciliatory and respectful given the very delicate nature of their subject. originally penned by Mrs. M 
Nothing posted should either be intended to "proselytize" or be taken as an effort to do so. The "Great Commission" of Christianity as well as that of other faiths regarding leading people to become members thereof has no place on this forum except as might occur quite apart from any effort by the poster but as the result of his or her attitude and knowledge. In other words, if someone's discourse and demeanor is such that it causes others to wish to be "like" that person and perhaps to experience that person's faith, that is fine. But attempts to directly entice, browbeat or otherwise cause people to join one's own religion (or, conversely, could be considered a "put down" of another's faith) should be considered a definite "no no" and not be tolerated. originally penned by Mrs. M 
Any statements that declare that one's particular faith is "The Truth" have no place in this sort of discourse. As a Christian, I believe that about Christianity, but such statements have no place in scholastic debate since they cannot be proven being only my particular belief and that of others of my faith. We are not dealing with math here where the answer is irrefutable. Therefore declarations of omniescience (unless we are declaring that such was the intention of the author of a quoted source in which case we are commenting upon something rather than positing it ourselves) are simply without merit under the circumstances.originally penned by Mrs. M 
Nothing posted should be intended to be nor should it be taken as an "insult" to another person or his/her beliefs. That means that quotes from relevant sources pertaining to Tolkien which are "Christian" or otherwise should not be considered as insulting to someone who has a different perspective on the matter. Discourse and discussion are an attempt to look at all areas and positions of a particular question and as long as such debates are carried on in a civil and scholarly way, no one should feel "insulted". Our present "politically correct" culture makes it almost impossible to engage in true debate because someone might take a purely academic point and personalize it. For example, it is no longer possible to use the word "niggardly" in public speech because it may "offend" some people who mistake it for something else! If we are going to be that "touchy", then this Guild should never see the light of day. However, I cannot believe that - given the intellectual level I have encountered on the forum - we cannot have vigorous and substantial debate without descending into this sort of nonsense.originally penned by Mrs. M 
No poster should make flippant comments, even in "fun". We have seen where such "fun" leads to in the past. This is especially true on a site of this kind. You wouldn't juggle nitroglycerine, so why on earth would you post something that runs the risk of being misunderstood and creating a problem?originally penned by Mrs. M 
The Guild will be closely (and I mean CLOSELY) monitored to be sure that some small incident doesn't escalate. originally penned by Mrs. M 

Failure to adhere to these rules will result in warning PMs, possible warning points, and in extreme cases, closing of the guild.

I trust that you all can act in a mature and responsible way, and realise why this is such a difficult subject, and how problems with this guild could form quite easily.

Thank you.


*Note* This list is subject to change if any of the C9 feel I've forgotten anything, and mods feel free to add or edit this in any way.


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## Lantarion

Sounds just about perfect to me. Well done C9!! 

But there are a couple things I'd like to make clear:


> The Guild will be closely (and I mean CLOSELY) monitored to be sure that some small incident doesn't escalate.


This is obviously an excellent and prudent idea, and my question is actually who will do the monitoring? The C9? The Moderators in general? Or will a seperate Moderator or Moderators be assigned specifically for this duty?


> Our decision for the Guild of Religion has been made.


Will this be the final name of the Guild? Personally I think it should be something more fitting, perhaps a notion or place from Tolkien's works that would pertain aptly to the purpose of this Guild. Also, this Guild would discuss not only religious matters and applicability in Tolkien's works but "philosophical, moral and ethical" matters also (as penned by Mrs.Maggott ), so having the title 'Guild of Religion' would IMO be an improper term for the society.

Excellent job though, I'm sincerely looking forward to seeing this happen!


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## Aulë

I believe that YayGollum and myself have been selected to moniter it for the C9. And I presume a Mod will be chosen by the Mod Core as well.


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## Wonko The Sane

Yes, YayGollum and Aulë have been selected as the C9 representatives to monitor the forum, and Ciryaher has expressed personal interest in paying close moderator attention to the forum.

As for your second question, the actual name for the guild will be up to the guild itself.
My suggestion is that when the guild space is created it can start out as "The Guild of Religion" and then they can decide amongst themselves on a suitable name.


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## Lantarion

Oh my goodness, I completely forgot the "Annals of the Eldanyárë" section! Argh, this changes my view on the Guild.. [SIZE=0.5]Cheers to ithrynluin who pointed it out.[/SIZE]

The very description of the forum is:


> Discussions that seek to understand the depth of Tolkien's work; including the mythologies, theologies, and other reflections.


I think "mythologies, theologies and other reflections" pretty much covers what the Religion Guild was going to be set up for; if needed, the Annals forum's description can be specified to "mythologies, religions, and other reflections", but it would serve the exact same purpose as it does now.

I feel dumb for not remembering it before.. It has been idle for a very long time, and I barely even stop by there anymore. I say if people want to discuss Tolkien's works through religion of mythology, do it here. The Religion Guild was originally wanted as a place where members could discuss Religion(s) in general, not pertaining to Tolkien's works; this was dismissed by the fact that it would be out of place in a Tolkien Forum. The whole time the discussion has been about a Religion Guild not centered around religion solely, we have all neglected to remember the Annals of the Eldanyárë. Remember it now, say I.


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## Wonko The Sane

The Annals of Eldanyárë will still serve their purpose as far as I know.
The Religion Guild will be a sort of catch-all for all religious topics, and will include Non-Tolkien related topics as well as Tolkien related ones. 
We hope it will provide a more comprehensive area for these discussions to take place.


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## Finduilas

Just a question:

Why should we have two different Guilds while the one actually _includes_ the other?
What's more, The Annals of Eldanyárë is not so frequently "visited". 
And when will the Religious Guild be open?


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## Ancalagon

Because the Annals is dedicated to Tolkien alone, considering of course this is a Tolkien Forum first and foremost, so he should have his place over and above a general fora dedicated to religion. Even though the Annals does not have much traffic, the traffic it does get is of a high standard and of course, all specific to the Professor.


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## Finduilas

So why don't we have ONE Guild with two sub-guilds (as in the Guild of Tolkienology) - the one dedicated to Tolkien-only Religion and Myths, and the other to non-Tolkien Religious problems?


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## Ancalagon

Annals is a seperate entity altogether from a general religion fora, and thus should not be lumped in with one. Remember, 50% who voted do not see the need for a new religious fora at all, so tampering with something that is strictly dedicated to Tolkien in order to accommodate general discussions on religion might not be viewed positively. Some things in this forum should remain sacred, religion is not one of them.


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## Beorn

When WM was originally presented with the idea of a religion guild/discussion area, he said that it would only be allowed if it were in relation to Tolkien and his works. Expanding the guild to allow non-related topics would be opening it up to more problems, in addition to further diluting the content of TTF.


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## Confusticated

> ...one dedicated to Tolkien-only Religion and Myths..


For there to exist a section just for religion related Tolkien topics, would be something like starting a forum for topics dealing with Aragorn. Sure it would be used, but it would not be necessary.

I don't start religion related Tolkien topics, but if I did I can be sure I wouldn't stick it in _this thing_ they are adding. I'd rather put it in the area where those who discuss Tolkien will be sure to see it.



> When WM was originally presented with the idea of a religion guild/discussion area, he said that it would only be allowed if it were in relation to Tolkien and his works.


I'm not sure people were really asking for that, and I know that is certainly not what most of them were pushing for, but since some want it I guess it doesn't matter.

But judging by what the C9 members have told me today, this is not going to be a Guild for Tolkien topics but a Guild for Religion topics that welcomes Tolkien related religion topics. See the thread started in the C9 forum (if you haven't yet) and would like to know more of what was said on this.

But simply put this is what it will be: A Religion Guild that allows religious topics that relate to Tolkien. Is this correct?




> Remember, 50% who voted do not see the need for a new religious fora at all...


It is entertaining enough that I doubt anyone will forget.


----------



## Mrs. Maggott

I would just like to post a little note here. I am - and have said in the past that I am - a Christian. Many Christians believe that they can create more Christians by talking (in some instances, browbeating) them into the Faith. But people came to Christianity in the beginning, _NOT_ because of preaching (talking), but because Christians lived lives of love: love for each other and love for _all_ men, even those who were _not_ Christians. Also, Christians were full of the joy of the Holy Spirit. These things made them and their way of life seem desireable to those who were not Christians. They converted others _by the example that they set in their own lives_. 

Why do I say this? Because one cannot "talk" someone into _any_ faith. If someone desires to "convert" people, then he must live his faith to the best of one's ability and allow his "light to shine" in such a way that people want to know what it is about him that makes him "special". C. S. Lewis became a believer not because Tolkien and his other Christian friends were persuasive speakers, but because they were the kind of men Lewis could look upon with respect and affection. If they had been rotters and miserable s.o.b.'s, how much force would all their theology - however learned - have had? 

For those who wish to lead others to Christ - and I say this as a Christian - the _first_ thing you have to do is _treat other people with love and respect_. If you don't do that, all the cant in the world is not going to make one bit of difference. Furthermore, your kindness and humanity will be the best proof of the efficacy - and the desireability - of your faith.


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## David Pence

Read


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## Wonko The Sane

Thank you, Webmaster for clarifying this for all of us.

I hope this helps in understanding.

And yes, the C9 was aware that 50% of those that voted did not want a religious guild, but we felt that due to the split it was our responsibility to provide one for those that did.
Again, this is a trial period, and if it does not work out, guidelines are not adhered to, etc. it will be the other 50%, the ones not in favour of the guild, that will end up getting their way.

Let's try to make this a success for everyone involved.


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## Ancalagon

No Wonko, I am sorry, still no clarity for me...even with that announcement from WM which basically brings us no further towards answering the questions being asked. Is the Guild for all religious discussion, including anything to do with Tolkien, or is specifically for non-Tolkien related religious discussion, such as the Guild of Politics? Does this mean the removal of 'Annals' which basically is dedicated to Tolkien alone and spiritual/religious questions in relation to his work. I would be loathe to see a Guild of Religion swallow Annals, then again I fear that the Guild of Religion may just end up being the Guild of Christian Proselytizers, however I guess that is up to the Mods to manage.


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## Wonko The Sane

The guild will be for all religious discussions.
People will be allowed to discuss Tolkien-related religion if they want.
But they probably won't. It'll probably be like the Guild of Politics for Religion.
The Annals of Eldanyàrë will stay.
If the Guild of Religion ends up being the Guild of Christian Proselytizers and there is no actual discussion so much as conversion and "My way is God's way" claims the guid will be disbanded as that is not its purpose.

Does THAT help?


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## Mrs. Maggott

Well, one of the things that the Guild of Religion might wish to tackle is the "origin" of evil. On another site, a great many threads have dealt with the question of whether Melkor was the originator of evil or whether - since Melkor was a creation of Eru - it might be said that Eru _Himself_ "created" evil. This is a very salient point in the whole underpinning of Tolkien's myth and it certainly has direct applications to "our" understanding of the nature of evil as well.

This might be a very worthwhile topic for our new Guild to tackle.


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## BranMuffin

> _Originally posted by Wonko The Sane _
> *The guild will be for all religious discussions.
> People will be allowed to discuss Tolkien-related religion if they want.
> But they probably won't. It'll probably be like the Guild of Politics for Religion.
> The Annals of Eldanyàrë will stay.
> If the Guild of Religion ends up being the Guild of Christian Proselytizers and there is no actual discussion so much as conversion and "My way is God's way" claims the guid will be disbanded as that is not its purpose. *



And this is what I wanted and stated from when I first posted the idea. Thank you all. Thank you WM and thank you C9.



> For those who wish to lead others to Christ - and I say this as a Christian - the first thing you have to do is treat other people with love and respect. If you don't do that, all the cant in the world is not going to make one bit of difference. Furthermore, your kindness and humanity will be the best proof of the efficacy - and the desireability - of your faith.



Thank you again for your view Mrs. Maggot and I agree with you profoundly. I believe that with the right heart attitude the new Guild will be a success.


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## Wonko The Sane

I'm sure I express the feelings of the entire C9 that we are glad we could provide a welcome service to the members of TTF.

Even if individual C9 members don't agree with the decision, it is our responsibility to help the forum grow in ways that serve the members needs and wishes.

I hope that this is another step in doing so.


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## HLGStrider

I was thinking, about putting both of them as a subforum so that you can only see them by entering into the other forum. . .the way it is with the sections in the Tolkienologist. .. You can't see those in the main menu, but you can on the list, right?


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