# Did anyone else find....



## Merry (Mar 6, 2002)

Did anyone else find the whole story of Turin and the death of his Mother and Sister upsetting? What a fantastic story but deeply moving.

What did you find to be the most sorrowful account in the Sil?


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## Tar-Palantir (Mar 6, 2002)

I agree with you about Turin's story - about it being upsetting. It's really my least favorite part of the Silmarillion proper, mostly because I can't find myself rooting for Turin. I know there are many outside influences on his actions, but lordy does he make some bad choices! His only apparent redeeming quality is bravery.


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## Eonwe (Mar 6, 2002)

Ugh! Turin Turumbar Chapter! We hates it!

And as I get older, and re-read sections again, I think it is great. I just could never stand how awfully well Morgoth triumphs!

I love Glarungs words with Turin, his words with his sister, etc. I like Hurin coming before Thingol and Melian healing him from Morgoth's vision. And I like how the Mormegil talks to Turin.


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## Elfarmari (Mar 8, 2002)

I always both like and hated that chapter, because it is awful how evil Melkor is, and to what extent he can influence mortal's lives. Turin is brave in spite of it all, and my brother and I did experience some happiness in our (unfortunately) temporary amnesia. I didn't know dragons were so powerful!


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## Grond (Mar 8, 2002)

Ahhhh fair Nienor, your mother and yourself were the only redeeming spirits in the story of thy foul brother Turin. Melkor brought down much misery upon him, but much misery he visited upon himself for the sake of PRIDE!!


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## Turgon (Mar 11, 2002)

I enjoyed the story of Turin, if enjoyed is the right word. It is a very powerful story. I wonder if anyone here as read the Kalevala? I got it out from the Library once, but never got around to reading it... I'd be grateful to hear someone's opinion on it.


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## Aldanil (Mar 12, 2002)

From Humphrey Carpenter's Tolkien: A Biography

"At about this time [late autumn 1917], perhaps while he was lying in hospital in Cheltenham, Tolkien composed another major story for 'The Book of Lost Tales'. This was the tale of the hapless Turin, which was eventually given the title 'The Children of Hurin'. Again one may detect certain literary influences: the hero's fight with a great dragon inevitably suggests comparison with the deeds of Sigurd and Beowulf, while his unknowing incest with his sister and his subsequent suicide were derived quite consciously from the story of Kullervo in the Kalevala. But again these 'influences' are only superficial. 'The Children of Hurin' is a powerful fusion of Icelandic and Finnish traditions, but it passes beyond this to achieve a degree of dramatic complexity and a subtlety of characterisation not often found in ancient legends."


Speaking more generally, Tolkien's encounter with the Kalevala while still a schoolboy had a tremendous and lasting impact on his young imagination, both narrative/epical and linguistic. The notion of creating a native mythology for his beloved England was powerfully inspired by this wondrous cycle of hero-legends (the date of its 19th C. publication is still a Finnish national holiday, I think), and the euphonious beauty of language that he so came to savor made Finnish the unmistakable model for Quenya. On both of these points, Pontifex the Wise can no doubt offer far more cogent commentary, if he finds the occasion.


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## Bucky (Mar 13, 2002)

When I get to that chapter, I switch to the longer version in UT. 
It's written much in the 'story telling' fashion of TLOR & alot less in the 'historical' style of The Silmarillion.

I think that this chapter is not really much different or disturbing than the rest of the book.
It's basically a tale of a hopeless war in which most of the heroes go down in defeat at the hands of a merciless & vengeful foe.

Is the manipulation of Beren by Thingol any less devious?
Or the Kinslaying?
Or the other times the Sons of Feanor attack Elves to regain the Silmarils?
Or Maeglin's treachery?
Or Sauron tricking Ar-Parazon into attacking Valinor?


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## Lord Melkor (Mar 13, 2002)

Well, I laughed upon it! This loser got what he deserved for opposing Melkor The Great!


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## Merry (Mar 13, 2002)

Is this the same mighty Melkor that let a woman sing him to sleep while he was robbed? Oh, very tough aren't you!!


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## Eonwe (Mar 13, 2002)

yep Melkor's a pushover for Luthien, literally


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## Merry (Mar 13, 2002)

*sings* Melkor is a wimp, Melkor is a wimp!


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## Hama (Mar 14, 2002)

Narn i Hin Hurin is definitely not my favorite part of the Silmarillion. I did find it terribly sad. Reminded me of some of the Russian romantic novels or some of the Bronte sister's works for some reason. Glaurung and Nienor are definitely great characters, but there are other parts of the Sil which are equally sad - the death of Felagund and the sacking of Gondolin to name a few, or the fifth battle.


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## Camille (Mar 21, 2002)

Yes the Story of the children of Hurin is the most sad story in the Tolkien's work, do not laugh at me but I almost cry! 
Poor nienor and turin, and it is more sorrowfull is when Hurin went to Gondoling and asked for help an no one helped him.
This story remains me the Greek legends, (Edipo) where the doom of the characthers is so strong that they can not scape.
Talking about turin, In the sil and in the HOME it is stated that Nienor and Turin had a child! what happened to this child?


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## Tar-Palantir (Mar 21, 2002)

If memory serves, I believe that Nienor was pregnant when she died.


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## Camille (Mar 21, 2002)

In the sil the word used is "conceive" is that the same that being pregnant in English?


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## Tar-Palantir (Mar 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Camille _
> *In the sil the word used is "conceive" is that the same that being pregnant in English? *



That's my assumption, Camille.


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## Camille (Mar 21, 2002)

it is? I have to checked my Spanish and my English dictionary!!


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## Camille (Mar 21, 2002)

Tar Palantir you were absolutlly right my BIG mistake!!  (what a shame!!!)


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