# Saruman and the Ring of Fire



## Elu Thingol (May 16, 2002)

I was just wondering, if Saruman was so jealous of Gandalf's ring of fire. How come he didn't just take it when he imprisoned Gandalf at Orthanc?


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## Rangerdave (May 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Mithrandir2003 _
> *I was just wondering, if Saruman was so jealous of Gandalf's ring of fire. How come he didn't just take it when he imprisoned Gandalf at Orthanc? *



Saruman most likely did not know that Cirdan had ever surrendered the ring to Gandalf. The keeper's of the rings certainly did not avertise the fact that they held them.

just a theory however. I don't have any real proof on the matter.

RD


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## Niniel (May 16, 2002)

Apparently, Gandalf could hide it, beacuse when they got to the Grey Havens, it says that FRodo saw that 'Gandalf now wore openly on his finger Narya, the Ring of Fire', or something. Frodo could see that Galadriel wore a Ring, but it seems that he had not seen Gandalf wearing it before. Maybe he hid it somewhere and did not use it, just as he could not use all his powers, or he had the power to hide it from the view of others while he wore it. I'm not sure if Saruman knew he had it; they were together in the White Council, and maybe Saruman knew Gandalf had it. On the other hand, Gandalf didn't really trust Saruman, so maybe he didn't tell him about it.


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## Lantarion (May 16, 2002)

I'm not sure but I think Saruman did know of Narya, being the head of the White Council. I agree that Gandalf either didn't wear the ring or somehow rendered it invisible at times. The only two times I can remember him openly displaying it are the Bridge of Khazad-dûm (of which I'm not sure) and the Grey Havens.


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## pohuist (May 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Pontifex _
> *I'm not sure but I think Saruman did know of Narya, being the head of the White Council. I agree that Gandalf either didn't wear the ring or somehow rendered it invisible at times. The only two times I can remember him openly displaying it are the Bridge of Khazad-dûm (of which I'm not sure) and the Grey Havens. *



Gandlaf did not dispaly the ring at Khazad-dum. He said to Balrog "I am a servant of the secret fire... you cannot pass", from which some people conclude the he referred to Narya, others think that he meant he comes from Valinor. The first time he displayed the ring was at the Grey Havens. Nothing in the book (or elsewhere for this matter) IMHO indicates that Saruman knew that Gandalf had this ring, and I don't believe he did. The rings wer hidden and not only from Sauron, but from almost everybody.


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## Niniel (May 17, 2002)

There is a quote somewhere where it says that a light shone through Gandalf's fingers, and I always took it to refer to the Ring. I can't find it now, but I think it means that Gandalf did sort op show it then.


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## pohuist (May 17, 2002)

"There was Gandalf on Shadowfax and on his finger he *for the first time openly wore* Narya the Great, the Ring of Fire." (from the Grey Havens, not an exact quote but pretty close to the text. There indeed was a quote about light shining from his finger somewhere, but even if it was a reference to the Ring, nobody seemed to notice this light, and we a that point were not supposed to know that Gandalf does have this ring. So, it very well could have been a reference a number of other things. After all, Gandalf was a wizard. Unless you have a direct proof from the text, you will not be able to convince me that Gandalf kind of showed off the Ring. Actually, I beleieve that, to the contrary, he hide it the best he could.


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## Ithrynluin (Jun 1, 2002)

It is true that Gandalf never displayed his ring openly.
BUT it says in the UT that the White Messenger(=Saruman),who was skilled to uncover all secrets became aware of this gift(Cirdan giving the ring to Gandalf) and begrudged it,and it was the begining of the ill-will that he bore to the Grey Messenger(=Gandalf).
So Saruman did know Gandalf had the ring,but as to why he didn't take it from him I have no answer or proof.
But I assume that Saruman couldn't just take the ring like that,after all they are both powerful maiar,despite the fact that Saruman was the Head of the Order...


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## Elu Thingol (Jun 1, 2002)

Maybe the ring can only be given with the consent of its wearer, or maybe if Saruman would have killed Gandalf he would have obtained the ring. But after Gandalf was killed fighting the Balrog he still kept the ring. Maybe Saruman was planning on taking the ring from Gandalf after he killed him. Also, how did Saruman beat Gandalf while Gandalf was wearing a ring of power and imprison him. It must not have been that powerful. Although, Saruman was on his own turf so.... maybe he had a few tricks up his sleeve.


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## HLGStrider (Jun 2, 2002)

Well, it wouldn't have made much of a difference whether Gandalf had Narnya if Sauramen had the One, which Sauraman was planning to get. Gandalf would've had his mind laid open to Sauramen. In that case, it would've almost been an advantage for Gandalf to have it... Sauramen could get power over him through it as soon as he found the precious.......


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## Elu Thingol (Jun 3, 2002)

I see what your saying. Saruman was concerned with more important things. Your probably right. Still, Saruman did not have the ring and if I was him I would have taken it if I could.


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## Hawkblaze (Jun 4, 2002)

Speaking of this, what exactly did Narya give Gandalf? He already had special powers because he was a wizard, did the ring increase his power? Did it give him new powers? I don't remember the book mentioning anything about this.


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## Elfarmari (Jun 4, 2002)

I think I remember reading somewhere that the ring helped him endure the physical hardships he faced, and helped him kindle the hearts of those opposed to Sauron to great deeds.


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## Theoden (Jun 4, 2002)

Saruman wanted the ONE RING. I don't know whether or not he knew about Gandalf's ring or not, but I don't think he cared. He wanted the ultimate ring. So, that's my theory. 

-me


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## Elu Thingol (Jun 5, 2002)

Yes Theoden that is what most people think but as said above Saruman did know about the ring. Also in UT is the fact that Saruman greatly coveted the ring. I think the only reason he hadn't taken it is because he hadn't gotten around to it.


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## Úlairi (Jun 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *It is true that Gandalf never displayed his ring openly.
> BUT it says in the UT that the White Messenger(=Saruman),who was skilled to uncover all secrets became aware of this gift(Cirdan giving the ring to Gandalf) and begrudged it,and it was the begining of the ill-will that he bore to the Grey Messenger(=Gandalf).
> So Saruman did know Gandalf had the ring,but as to why he didn't take it from him I have no answer or proof.
> But I assume that Saruman couldn't just take the ring like that,after all they are both powerful maiar,despite the fact that Saruman was the Head of the Order... *



I was sitting there biting my thumb, hoping that someone would get the quote, and well done to ithrynluin. I will post the quote in full:



> "And the Grey Messenger took the Ring, and kept it ever secret; yet the White Messenger (who was skilled to uncover all secrets) after a time became aware of this gift, *and begrudged it*, and it was the beginning of the hidden ill-will that he bore to the Grey, *which afterwards became manifest*."
> _Unfinished Tales: The Istari Page 504_



What Mithrandir2003 asked is quite a legitimate question, and I have contemplated about it myself, and I spent many days searching for the answer, and to be frank, there isn't one. I believe Tolkien made another mistake here, however, UT was published post-humously, possibly another mistake by CT. However, there can be a connection made here to the Ring that Saruman appeared to have forged, and this manifest could have led to its creation. I have posted two threads ereto its existence, and no one could answer it Mithrandir2003, just like no one can answer this one. Here is the quote on Saruman's Ring:



> "'But I rode to the foot of Orthanc, and came to the stair of Saruman; and there he met me and led me up to his high chamber. *He wore a ring on his finger*.
> '"So you have come, Gandalf," he said to me gravely; but in his eyes there seemed to be a white light, as if a cold laughter was in his heart.
> '"Yes, I have come," I said. "I have come for your aid, Saruman the White." And that title seemed to anger him.
> '"Have you indeed Gandalf the _Grey_!" he scoffed. "For aid? It has seldom been heard of that Gandalf the Grey sought for aid, one so cunning and so wise, wandering about the lands, and concerning himself in every business, whether it belongs to him or not."
> ...



So, I have a question with my own answer, but feel free to post your opinions. Did Saruman make his Ring in mockery of Gandalf's, or in jealousy? I believe it was a mixture, but mostly jealousy of Gandalf.

Mithtandir2003 - I'm doing you a favour and continuing the thread, otherwise, it would probably die in a matter of days.


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## HLGStrider (Jun 6, 2002)

I'd say in jealousy, and I imagine he, being what I would call a meglomaniac, imagined that it was just as good as anything the elves had made... Sarumen's mental condition always seemed a tad bit unstable to me. Did he give the thing magic powers? I imagine he would've. If so, he would've seen it as a good replacement... though he would've eventually wanted the ring. I still think using the one to control Gandalf with the ring of fire would be useful and desirable.


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## Úlairi (Jun 7, 2002)

A plausible post Elgee.


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## HLGStrider (Jun 7, 2002)

I'VE RECEIVED ULARIAN APPROVAL!!! HORRAY!!!

Plausible, but do you agree with my opinion?
I still think the guy was a tad bit... unhinged... Like Spencer... Spencer was unhinged... of course, it wasn't Spencer... It was Wally... Deep breath... okay.
Anyway, what is your opinion?


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## Úlairi (Jun 7, 2002)

You're not going to have my approval now! You beat me to the 2000 post mark. Now I'm really sad. I am shattered, devastated, torn and all the other synonymous words with the same definitions that I can think of. *sob* My life is over. *breaks out in hysterics*


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## HLGStrider (Jun 8, 2002)

Would free drinks at the Long Named Dragon bar make up for it???

er... sorry... NOT!!!

I'm reveling in victory... until Beorn or Cir or one of the other spoil sports comes in with a post count doesn't matter speech and takes away all my fun.. I still think it is a lot like birthdays... Gee, I'm old...
Well, you are a longer poster than me sometimes... I ramble a lot... Going on vacation Sunday. You'll have a three day window to catch up in while I go on internet withdrawal...


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## HLGStrider (Jun 8, 2002)

U!!! TAKE A QUICK LOOK AT WHO IS NUMBER ONE ON THE POST COUNT!!! I WAS CURIOUS SO I LOOKED BUT I NEVER THOUGHT... I'M NUMBER ONE!!! GEE, THIS'LL LAST MAYBE TWO DAYS BUT... GEES... GROND IS TWO I AM ONE... GEES... YIKES... GEES AGAIN... WOW.


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## Úlairi (Jun 8, 2002)

*STOP POSTING AND LET ME CATCH UP THEN!*


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## HLGStrider (Jun 8, 2002)

As I said, I am going on vacation tomorrow... of course, you are over a hundred posts behind... shame on you...

Where was I?

So you aren't going to give me your opinion? Sad... 

I already gave you mine... so here is my question... Purely speculative, mind you...

What powers do you think Saruman put into his ring? What powers did he have to put in? What could he do with it? What happened to the darn thing after he was deposed?


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## Arda's Bane (Jun 13, 2002)

Maby Saruman didnt take the ring because his own ring aided him more (thus him winning the fight) or a single being couldnt have two powerful rings on at the same time?  possibly not
Maby he suspected Sauron obtaining the one and if this happened then his mind would be open to him thus revealing his desire to obtain the one.


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## HLGStrider (Jun 13, 2002)

Gee... really cool new colors and stuff... wow... leave for a couple of days and... Where was I?

I don't think that the fight was hardly as dramatic as it was in the movie. In the book it sounded more like Gandalf knew he was outmatched and chose to bide his time. The idea about fearing that Sauron would get in his mind is good, however.


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## Ingwë (Dec 13, 2005)

> BUT it says in the UT that the White Messenger,who was skilled to uncover all secrets became aware of this gift (Cirdan giving the ring to Gandalf) and begrudged it, and it was the begining of the ill-will that he bore to the Grey Messenger.
> So Saruman did know Gandalf had the ring,but as to why he didn't take it from him I have no answer or proof.


It is clear that Saruman knew about the Ring of Gandalf, the Ring of Fire (we have _it was the begining of the ill-will that he bore to the Grey Messenger. _Saruman hated Gandalf before the Great Years). But we don't know why didn't he try to take it from Gandalf. 
I don't think that the Ring can be hidden. Only the One Ring makes the possessor invisible and itself, of course. I think that if the Ring of Fire makes itself invisible, it must make the possessor hidden, but that is not true. The Ring wasn't hidden by itself. 
Can Gandalf put some spell on Saruman? I don't think that Saruman was too busy for a Ring of Power. Or maybe he ignored the Ring of Fire because of his own Ring. Maybe he thought that his Ring is more powerful that Gandalf's.


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