# Gandalf and Iluvatar



## Goro Shimura (Feb 14, 2002)

Several questions here:

What is Gandalf?

How did he come to Middle Earth?

What is his relationship to Iluvatar?


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## Lantarion (Feb 14, 2002)

You, like so many others who are new to this thread, should read the Silmarillion. There are so many answers to so many questions it'll make you dizzy.
But to make your life easier, I will answer the q's here. Gandalf (whose 'real' name was Olórin) was a Maia, a lesser 'god' or 'angel' of Ilúvatar. Eru himself is..well, I'm not sure what he is. But all the other 'higher beings', like the Valar and the Maiar, are creatures called _Ainur_, which means 'the holy ones'. The Valar are the highest of the Ainur, because they control(led) Middle-Earth and have very great powers. Maiar are the lesser Ainur, because they have less potent powers, and are vassals or buddies of the Valar. The Istari, the wizards sent to Middle-Earth in the beginning of the Third Age (I think), were Maiar. They were Gandalf, Saruman and Radagastm who are mentioned in the LotR, and Alatar and Pallando, who are only noted in Unfinished Tales. They were all Maiar, and they all had some sort of magical powers. Saruman (Curunír) had the greatest powers of the five wizards, but Gandalf was the wisest. And he was the most powerful after he was resurrected at Khazad-dûm.
Anyway, the Istari were sent by some of the Valar, on a charge from Ilúvatar. Gandalf was sent by Manwë, Saruman and Radagast were sent by Aulë, and I can't remember who Alatar and Pallando were sent by (can't be bothered to dig up my UT). So in a sense the Istari are serving Ilúvatar through the orders of the Valar.
 Whew. Read the Sil, and you might understand what the hell I was on about there.


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## Goro Shimura (Feb 14, 2002)

Thanks for the informative reply!

Do you have anything on how Gandalf was resurrected? Did Iluvatar handle that or the Valar?


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## Ståle (Feb 14, 2002)

Actually, every Istari had his own Vala. Gandalf was of Manwë's Maiar, Saurumann was of Aulë(so was also Sauron...Aulë needs to get his servants straight), Radagast was of the people of Yavanna, Pallando was of Oromë and Alatar was of Mandos(or vice verca)


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## Goro Shimura (Feb 14, 2002)

Okay... so Gandalf was with Manwë.

Wasn't Manwë the leader of the Valar?

What was his attributes?

In the song of the creation... what was his role? How much would Gandalf know about that song and how much would it help him have a hunch for future events?

(Sorry... don't have Sil. handy....)

And did Manwë or did Iluvatar step in for that resurrect Gandalf?


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## Beleg Strongbow (Feb 14, 2002)

They didn't belong to that vala they were just chosen by them. Gandalf if anyone was with lorien and neinna.


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## Tar-Elenion (Feb 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goroshimura _
> And did Manwë or did Iluvatar step in for that resurrect Gandalf?



Iluvatar was the one who sent Gandalf back (who at his death passed out of Time).


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## Bucky (Feb 15, 2002)

The notes in UT equating the Maiar sent as Istari to the various Valar are vague at best.

Olorin is said in The Sil to have 'dwelt in Lorien'. In the Essay in UT, he's equated to being of 'the people of Manwe'.

Looking at Saruman as to his character in TLOR & notes in UT leave little doubt that he was of the people of Aule.

On Radagast, CT says that comments that he didn't stay true to his mission, 'becoming enamoured of the wild creatures' of ME, isn't totally in accord with the fact that he was sent by & of the people of Yavanna.....


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## Elanor2 (Feb 15, 2002)

Stricktly speaking, Gandalf did not die. Humans (and other races) die. Maiar get their bodies destroyed and their spirits have to take form again to be able to perform in the world (as happened to Sauron).

Someone (Iluvatar? Manwe?) must have helped Gandalf taking form again so fast. Not exactly a ressurrection, I'd say, since he did not get back his old form but another, closer to what Saruman should have been if he had not gone rotten, as the book says.


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## Cian (Feb 15, 2002)

Tolkien wrote (regarding Gandalf's return):



> "He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. 'Naked I was sent back -- for a brief time, until my task is done.' Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time." JRRT _Letters_



That's why Elenion mentioned 'time', and I agree that is was Ilúvatar.


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