# The Ring and the downfall of Númenor



## Elendil3119 (Jun 11, 2003)

I have a question that has been bothering me for a bit. Did Sauron take the Ring with him to Númenor?

In Letter #211 Tolkien says:


> Ar-Pharazôn, as told in the 'Downfall' or Akallabêth conquered a terrified Sauron's subjects, not Sauron. Sauron's personal surrender was voluntary and cunning: he got free transport to Númenor! He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the wills of most Númenoreans. (I do not think Ar-Pharazôn knew anything about the One Ring...)


So, Tolkien seemed to think that Sauron _did_ have the Ring when he was taken to Númenor by Ar-Pharazôn. However, in the _Akallabêth_ there is this:


> There he took up again his great Ring in Barad-dûr, and dwelt there, dark and silent, until he wrought himself a new guise...


There is something to be said for both sides. First, I can hardly imagine Sauron entrusting the Ring to a subordinate. _If_ he left the Ring behind, he probably 'hid' it somewhere to keep it safe. I can just imagine: the Ring hanging on a coat-hanger over the Crack of Doom... nevermind that On the other hand, if Sauron _did_ take the Ring with him, how did he escape with it after the drowning of Númenor?


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## Ithrynluin (Jun 12, 2003)

Check out this post in the Cottage of Lost Lore thread. Read especially jallan's post.

I am certain Sauron had the Ring with him wherever he went. He would not entrust such a priceless possession to anyone.

'_There he took up again his great Ring..._' simply means that he started *using* the One Ring yet again...


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## Elendil3119 (Jun 12, 2003)

_How_ can a spirit could manipulate physical objects? I think there's a difference between the form of a Nazgul and that of 'spirit' Sauron. I've always thought that the Nazgul still had normal pysical bodies, but that they were just invisible, sort of like when Frodo puts on the Ring. On the other hand, when Númenor was drowned, Sauron completely lost his phsyical form. It's hard for me to grasp how a spirit can interact with the physical world. Just think about it: spirits to not take up space. You can't pysically touch a spirit. So how can a spirit physically touch an object?


> 'There he took up again his great Ring...' simply means that he started using the One Ring yet again...


So he wasn't using the Ring during his stay in Númenor? (assuming that he had it with him )


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## baragund (Jun 12, 2003)

Not to sound overly pseudo-technical but energy fields can move physical objects. Think of a magnetic field's effect on steel or iron. 

Or an electrical field's effect to attract opposite poles or repel like poles. Think of how static electricity makes your hair stand on end in winter when the air is cold and dry.

Works for me...


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## BlackCaptain (Jun 15, 2003)

Well mabey when he left Numenore, he went back into Mordor in stealth then when he was back in Barad Dur he took his Ring back up again, making him known to everybody. 

Just a little practical thinking... no magentism or whatever needed


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## Eledhwen (Jun 15, 2003)

In the drowning of Numenor, Sauron's spirit left his body (ring on finger, presumably), but he knew where that body was. When he again took physical form, he could find it and take up the ring once more. 

I assume from Gandalf's tiff with the Balrog that an embodied Maia has extraordinary resilience to the various elements before the body is destroyed; which leads me to believe that Sauron had the ability to retrieve his ring from under the sea.


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## BlackCaptain (Jun 15, 2003)

Ohhh yeah... I forgot that Sauron was there when the huge place drowned... hehe...

Well perhaps Sauron sent out some water spirits\maiar of some sort to retrieve it? No... probly not... Mabey Tolkien just overlooked this...


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## Ithrynluin (Jun 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Eledhwen _
> *In the drowning of Numenor, Sauron's spirit left his body (ring on finger, presumably), but he knew where that body was. When he again took physical form, he could find it and take up the ring once more. *



Woah, do you really think Sauron would be keen on scooba diving for the Ring, in the midst of the Great Sea?  Could he do that, and would he dare have contact with water? I think certainly not.

Tolkien does hint that spirits could interact with the physical world, even if only to a small degree. Sauron also had a huuuuuuge link with the Ring and perhaps that was the crucial factor to his being able to carry it off just like that.

Jallan said the following in the thread I linked to above:



> In _Morgoth’s Ring_ (HoME 10), “Myths Transformed”, VIII, _Orcs_, Tolkien speculates about Maiar who have become incarnate as Orcs and their deaths:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Eledhwen (Jun 16, 2003)

I haven't read HOME10 and bow to your greater knowledge. I must admit I hadn't thought of poltergeist-ability. I know the Nazgul were afraid of water, but I hadn't read that Sauron was (though I have to admit that I thought him diving into the ocean depths was a shaky theory, even as I was writing it).


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## Ancalagon (Jun 16, 2003)

This thread might be worth a look also!


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## Eledhwen (Jun 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ancalagon _
> *This thread might be worth a look also! *


 I forgot about that letter - probably read it when I was too tired. It makes this thread a bit redundant, unless it steers into something equally interesting....


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## Captain (Jul 7, 2003)

You only need a spirit, not a physical body, to grasp the ring. Otherwise, what would Sauron do with it if the Ringwraiths found it in the Third Age? He had no physical body then. My impression is that he was able to carry it with him.


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## Eledhwen (Jul 7, 2003)

Can anyone point me to where it says that Sauron had no body when he remanifested in the Third Age? I can find references to him taking visible form, but this does not explain whether that visible form was physical or a spiritual apparition.


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## Beleg (Jul 8, 2003)

Eledhwen this thread might help, 

As for the Quote, It is common enough. It is found in Alkabeth[sp?]. I don't have my books so I can't post it right now. 


Ealar and Incarnation


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## Elendil3119 (Jul 8, 2003)

I think Eledhwen is asking is there is a quote stating that Sauron did not have physical form when he came back in the _Third_ Age. The Akkalabeth states that Sauron lost his physical body in the Drowning of Númenor. In the Third Age, I believe that Sauron was in possession of a real body instead of being a spiritual apparition. There is some evidence from LotR that I think points to this side of the 'debate':

1. When Gollum describes Sauron, he says something like "He has only 4 fingers on that black hand..."

2. Shagrat speaking to Gorbag: "...And the prisoner is to be kept safe and intact until He sends or *comes Himself*."

3. Pippin describing what happened when he looked into the palantir: "He came and gloated over me..."


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## Arvedui (Apr 20, 2004)

This thread has been moved out of the Guild of Scholar's Hall, and will hopefully be filled with the thoughts of more members.


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## grendel (Apr 22, 2004)

Hmm... I dunno... although I grant that Sauron's spirit may have been able to carry the Ring with it back to Middle-Earth, keep in mind that he would have to have had the presence of mind to pull it off the finger of a body that was falling into a violent chasm, while trying to save himself. Not sure about that one.

I prefer to think that he would have left the Ring in Mordor, or somewhere. What good would it do in Numenor? Were there any of the lesser rings there? Aren't those what it dominated?


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## Maerbenn (Apr 23, 2004)

grendel said:


> What good would it do in Numenor? Were there any of the lesser rings there? Aren't those what it dominated?


Please read *Elendil3119's* quote from letter #211.


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