# Elf children



## e.Blackstar (Nov 1, 2002)

*What are elves born as?*

I mean, probablly as babies, but i just can't imagine a squalling little elf.
do they pop out as mini adults or what? its a stupid ?,but i wanna know


* The threads "What are elves born as?", "Elf children" and "Elf Babies" have been merged into this one thread.

Gothmog*


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## Ithrynluin (Nov 1, 2002)

Yes,they are born as little elven babies. 

This may be of interest to you:
At what age do elves reach maturity?
If elves are immortal


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## Ascamaciliel (Nov 1, 2002)

ww, i bet they're cute


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## Galadhwen (Nov 3, 2002)

Yep, ickle pointy ears and all! 
Do you reckon an elven pregnancy would take the same time as a mortal though?


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## Wolfshead (Nov 8, 2002)

Well, I would have supposed they would be much like normal human children, but with pointy ears. And they'd be called Elflings.


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## Anira the Elf (Nov 8, 2002)

they are children until they are over 100 or 200 too! ( i don't remember exactly. i even have the sil open infront of me) i donno if the are born as mortals are??? i would like to know.


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## Gothmog (Nov 8, 2002)

They are born as are those of Mortal race. The pregnancy lasts about a year.


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## Anira the Elf (Nov 9, 2002)

how do u know???* she says in a matter of fact tone then bursts out laughing* Whooo! thanks i needed to know that for my own little reasons.


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## Gothmog (Nov 9, 2002)

> As for the begetting and bearing of children: a year passes between the begetting and the birth of an elf-child, so that the days of both are the same or nearly so, and it is the day of begetting that is remembered year by year. For the most part these days come in the Spring.


 From: Morgoth's Ring.: Of the marriage laws and customs of the Eldar, their children, and other matters touching thereon: 

And as for how long it takes for them to become Full-grown:-


> [The Eldar grew in bodily form slower than Men, but in mind more swiftly. They learned to speak before they were one year old; and in the same time they learned to walk and to dance, for their wills came soon to the mastery of their bodies. Nonetheless there was less difference between the two Kindreds, Elves and Men, in early youth; and a man who watched elf-children at play might well have believed that they were the children of Men, of some fair and happy people. For in their early days elf-children delighted still in the world about them, and the fire of their spirit had not consumed them, and the burden of memory was still light upon them.(1)
> This same watcher might indeed have wondered at the small limbs and stature of these children, judging their age by their skill in words and grace in motion. For at the end of the third year mortal children began to outstrip the Elves, hastening on to a full stature while the Elves lingered in the first spring of childhood. Children of Men might reach their full height while Eldar of the same age were still in body like to mortals of no more than seven years.(2) Not until the fiftieth year did the Eldar attain the stature and shape in which their lives would afterwards endure, and for some a hundred years would pass before
> they were full-grown.]


From the same source.


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## Ascamaciliel (Nov 9, 2002)

i wonder why they did talk about little elves in the books more


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## tookish-girl (Nov 21, 2002)

*Elf babies*

Okay, apologies if this is in the worng forum but I have a question.

Do elves have baby elves? How do elves have babies? Now I don't want any "When a mummy Elf and a daddy elf love each other very much" type answers (Yes, I mean you, ReadWyrt!)

Seriously, if elves don't die and don't grow old, are they ever children? How are they created in the first place? DO they just appear all grown up looking? 

This one's being bothering me for a while, let's have some answers!


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## Lantarion (Nov 22, 2002)

Well, Ilúvatar decreed that the Children of Ilúvatar reproduce sexually (not quite so blatantly, though!). The first Elves who awoke beside Cuiviénen were created by Eru, God knows how (pun intended). But after that they produce quite 'normally'. 
And as far as I know Elf-babies are just like human babies. The fact that Elves do not die naturally doesn't seem to me to contradict the process by which they are born and grow up. I think Tolkien said that Elves mature and grow slower; in fact, I believe in one letter he states that Elves are not immortal but live for such in incredibly long time to a human's perspective that they are called 'immortal' (don't bug me about that word; I mean that they cannot die naturally). But anyway, that's beside the point, isn't it?


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## Niniel (Nov 22, 2002)

I think Elves do reproduce like Men, but that they have far less children than Men. Elrond has only three, and I suppose that is normal for other Elves as well. Maybe the fact that no Elf children are mentioned in LOTR is because the Elves knew that their time was over, and that they didn't want to have any more children. So in the time of the war of the Ring all the Elves that were then alive had already grown up and there were no children.


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## Ceorl (Nov 25, 2002)

I have been reading Morgoth's Ring recently, and this offers quite a bit of insight into all of these questions, and Elven nature in general.

As has been said they had normal children in the normal manner, however these children take much longer to mature, and reach maturity at around 100 years of age.

The definition of the word immortal is very different and variable. They cannot die within the world, their Fëa are irrevocably bound to the substance of Arda. Should their bodies be slain they are sent for a time to the Halls of Mandos, whence they will be released after a set time, and if they wish to leave. Now the way they are reincarnated is a very difficult thing to wrap your mind round, but they are born into the body of a newly born child, so an Elf who has died and been reincarnated will have passed through two stages of childhood. As they grow older and move towards maturity they remember more and more of their past life, until they can remember all of it. At this point they take up their original lives once more, they are held to still be married to their first husband/wife.

The other point is that Elves do age, and I am alluding to one single sentence from Morgoth's Ring which says that Elves do age, as they are bound to Arda and age with it and thus very slowly.

You really should read Morgoth's Ring, it tells you alot of stuff that I can't begin to explain. 

Hope that helps, I certainly found it interesting when I read it.


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## tookish-girl (Nov 26, 2002)

Thanks a great deal everyone!
It was bugging me becuase I knew that Galadriel was Arwen's grandmother yet was considered just as beautiful. The several arguments Gimli has with Eomer shows this one and I knew they didn't "age" if you see what I mean! ANyone more comments will be welcome!!!


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## Legolas3363 (Feb 22, 2003)

*Elves??*

Hello everyone! Im kinda new to lord of the rings and i was just wondering, how are elves born?? 
Thanks


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## Aulë (Feb 22, 2003)

The same way that humans are


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## Legolas3363 (Feb 22, 2003)

Thanks alot, thats what i figured


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## Baranlas (Feb 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Pippin_Took _
> *The same way that humans are  *




the stork brings them aswell wow


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## xime i love OB (Feb 26, 2003)

hey welcome legolas 36..!
same way than humas i think , great u like legolas !!!!!
join us in legola s luvers guild!


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## BlackCaptain (Feb 26, 2003)

They were created originaly by.... Im gonna let u read the Silmarillion. hehe... They're the Children of Illuvitar(the god in Tolkein's works), and are pretty much concieved, and when Varda, the star sprit queen lady, later called Elbereth by the elves, comes over them and shows them stars, they wake up. 

Thats probly wrong, seeing as how i havent read the Silmarillion in forever, but they origanaly came to the world by something close to that concept...


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## Goldberry (Feb 27, 2003)

And then after that, the original elves had children. Either the stork brings them or they find them in a pumpkin patch, just like humans.


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## xime i love OB (Feb 27, 2003)

morgul king : im reading the silmarilion but afther that the elves that are alredy on the earth they have they childrens, no?


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## LadyDernhelm (Feb 27, 2003)

*Regarding that stork*

So this stork - is it a special Elven stork, or is it our Earthian variety?


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## faila (Feb 28, 2003)

*Re: Regarding that stork*



> _Originally posted by LadyDernhelm _
> *So this stork - is it a special Elven stork, or is it our Earthian variety? *


 um....... I think theywere joking about the stork, Im not completely sure though. SO either you are continueing their joke or you just didnt know. Or I might be wrong, but I always thought it was sexual reproduction where the elven baby would be in an elven womb......(read your biology book for an explanation). But I might be wrong, but Im pretty sure they were joking, but then agian you might be too.


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## LadyDernhelm (Feb 28, 2003)

*stares for a moment, then suddenly bursts out laughing*

Of _course_ I was joking!!! Yes, I know about the reproductive system.  I just thought that that was a very funny idea....

Sorry to have caused you stress


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## faila (Feb 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by LadyDernhelm _
> **stares for a moment, then suddenly bursts out laughing*
> 
> Of course I was joking!!! Yes, I know about the reproductive system.  I just thought that that was a very funny idea....
> ...


 no stress....... I just think that the stork thing seems a bit to typical of a fantasy for tolkies work. And I just wanted to make sure you were joking, because if you were serious my opinion of you would not of been to high.


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## Lantarion (Feb 28, 2003)

> _Last posted by MorgulKing_
> ...Children of Illuvitar...


I have never heard of a character in any of Tolkien's wide variety of works called Illuvitar. You must be mistaken, or you are confusing this name with something else.
Ooohh, maybe you mean _Ilúvatar_!  
Let's try to get these names right, peeps!


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## Baromir (Mar 1, 2003)

Elves are born when a male elf fertilizes the egg of a female elf, then, if everything is successful, the egg travels to the uterus, and the baby is born.


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## Baranlas (Mar 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Baromir _
> *Elves are born when a male elf fertilizes the egg of a female elf, then, if everything is successful, the egg travels to the uterus, and the baby is born. *



ah so thats how it really happens



isnt the pregnancy longer?, i think a year but for all of you that definatly know can post and tell me if im right


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## Elf Goddess (Mar 2, 2003)

yeah same way as humans


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## HLGStrider (Mar 2, 2003)

I remember reading that Elf Gestation was a year, not nine months, and that they matured faster after birth. . .


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## Elfhelm25 (Mar 3, 2003)

Actually they matured much slower as children than humans..


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## Gothmog (Mar 3, 2003)

There is more information to be found about this topic on this thread What are elves born as?


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## Bergile (Mar 29, 2003)

OK, just an odd question from me. I presume elves had children in the usual way, but how long would elf childhoods last? I cant imagine elves being children at all. Can anyone hazard a guess?


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## Turin (Mar 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Anira the Elf _
> *they are children until they are over 100 or 200 too! ( i don't remember exactly. i even have the sil open infront of me) i donno if the are born as mortals are??? i would like to know. *




In another thread it states that elves become adults at about 50 or so.


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## Gothmog (Mar 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by turin56 _
> *In another thread it states that elves become adults at about 50 or so. *


 I think that the thread you are refering to has already been merged into this one.

From my earlier post in This thread.



> Not until the fiftieth year did the Eldar attain the stature and shape in which their lives would afterwards endure, and for some a hundred years would pass before they were full-grown.]


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## Turin (Mar 29, 2003)

Oh ok.


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## Feanorian (Mar 29, 2003)

I Would like to point out the fact that in no place of Tolkiens writings does it say that Elves have pointy vulcan ears, unless of course some one can show this to me and i will take my foot out of my mouth


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## jallan (Apr 1, 2003)

In Letter 27, Tolkien, describing what Hobbits look like, writes:


> A round, jovial face; ears only slightly pointed and ‘elvish’ ....


Now in this letter, written to his American publisher in 1938, the word _elvish_ would have to refer to the common image of pointed Elvish ears for its reader to understand it. That is, it is possible that Tolkien meant ‘elvish’ _only_ as in popular images, not meaning the Elvish folk in his legendarium.

That would be why Tolkien put single quotation marks around the word.

On the other end, it would be somewhat odd to imagine Hobbits to have pointed ears that Tolkien would call “elvish”, while his elves would not.

A more convincing passage appears in _The Lost Road_ (HoME 5), “The Etymologies”:


> *LAS¹-*   *_lassē_ leaf; Q _lasse_, N _lhass_; Q _lasselanta_ leaf-fall, autumn, N _lhasbelin (_*_lassekwelēne_), cf. Q _Narqelion_ [KWEL]. _Lhasgalen_ Greenleaf, Gnome name of Laurelin. (Some think this is related to the next and *_lassē_ ‘ear’. The Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than [?human].)


The words “the next” refer to the following entry *LAS²-* meaning ‘listen’.

Some argue that this passage is ambiguous.

Firstly, the last word was not clear to Christopher Tolkien. He thought it might be &#8220human&#8221, but it might be something else.

But whatever that word might be, still the Quendian ears are more pointed and leaf-shaped than something or other.

Some dispute the meaning of “leaf-shaped”, indicating oak leaves and maple leaves and leaves of books and tables and such.

Well, I don’t find any dictionary entry for _leaf-shaped_ on the web, but you can use Google or another good search engine to find texts containing the word _leaf-shaped_ and see that _leaf-shaped_ is used in practice to refer to things shaped like a pointed oval or like a valentine heart or to some intermediate shape.

It is very common usage.

Some claim the passge proves only that Tolkien thought Elves had pointed ears at one particular time.

Well, that is all it _proves_.

Pointed ears do bother some people, probably because they aren’t mentioned in folklore accounts of faërie folk and such but seem to have become part of the general public picture of Elves in the last two centuries through book illustrations.

The ears in book illustrations probably derive from the pointed, goatish ears often found on pictures of devils, fauns and satyrs which have been not unreasonably applied by artists to faërie folk.

To some pointed ears seem part of the degraded and pretty picture of faërie folk which Tolkien rejected. Therefore it seems to them that Tolkien ought to have rejected the pointed ears as well.

I sympathize with that point of view, and it is always _possible_ that Tolkien changed his mind at some later point, on this and other things.

But such speculation aside, Tolkien did at least once, as indicated by this reference, envision his Elves with pointed ears.

He may have always done so.


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## Feanorian (Apr 1, 2003)

I was hoping someone would prove me wrong because it just seems like Elves are meant to have pointy ears. I believe it was on this very website that i read there was never a point of Tolkien's writings where he mentioned elves having pointy ears. I guess you just cant believe something until you see it though.


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## Turin (Apr 3, 2003)

Does anyone know what the difference between Gnomes and Elves or are they the same?


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## jallan (Apr 3, 2003)

“Gnomes” was used by Tolkien to mean the Noldor only, or the Noldoli as he called them in his early writings.

He dropped this practice in writing _THe Lord of the Rings_ because the common image of a Gnome as a Dwarf-like being was too ingrained. 

That was about the time the garden-Gnome statues first became popular.

“Gnomes” seems to have been coined by Paracelsus as a name for earth elementals, but gradually became a synonym for supernatural beings like Dwarfs or Knockers: the kind of beings associated with the earth and underground in genuine folklore.

Some further discussion  here.


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## Turin (Apr 4, 2003)

Thank you for all the info.


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## Confusticated (Apr 4, 2003)

> Now the way they are reincarnated is a very difficult thing to wrap your mind round, but they are born into the body of a newly born child, so an Elf who has died and been reincarnated will have passed through two stages of childhood. As they grow older and move towards maturity they remember more and more of their past life, until they can remember all of it.



I just have to reply to this. What Ceorl says is written in Laws and Customs, but later Tolkien wrote the Converse of Manwe and Eru, where the idea of rehousing is introduced (were the Valar may rehouse an elf in a body identical to the one if had before it was ruined). Tolkien also wrote "Reincarnation of the Elves", presumably after the Converse of Manwe and Eru. To keep it short, I'll give what Christopher says of this:




> He was here abandoning, and for good, the long rooted conception of rebirth as the mode by which the Elves might return to incarnate life: from his scrutiny of the mythical idea, questioning it's validity in the terms he had adopted, it had come to seem to him a serious flaw in the metaphysic of Elvish existance. But, he said, it was a 'dilemma', for the reincarnation of the Elves 'seems an essential element in the tales'. 'The only solution,' he decided in this discussion, was the idea of the remaking in identicle form of the hroa of the Dead in the manner declared by Eru in The Converse of Manwe and Eru: the fea retains a memery, an imprint, of it's hroa, its 'former house', so powerful and precise that the reconstruction of an identical body can proceed from it.


Tolkien mentions in Reincarnation of the Elves that because an elf reborn would have new parents, he/she would grow to have a body different than the former. This would not be healthy for the elf, but it would also go against that idea of the hroa and fea being fitted to eachother.

In short: an elf released from Mandos is not reborn as a baby but given a body identical to it's former.

This is all found in Morgoth's Ring.

hroa - body
fea - spirit
house as used here - body


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