# Gandalf sneaking into Dol Guldur



## Ithrynluin (Feb 23, 2009)

Just how did he manage to do that?

Just how far-fetched or unbelievable does it sound to breach a fortress like Dol Guldur?

Do you think he did it using magic/deception or just an actual disguise? Or a combination of both? 

That beard must have been difficult to hide!


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## Bucky (Feb 23, 2009)

*I was just discussing this the other day on another site......

Perhaps Gandalf first visited Radagast in his nearby home of Rhosgobel. Radagast was a 'master of shapes & changing hues'.......

Remember too, In the 'Tale of Beren & Luthien', that 'by the arts of Felegund', Beren, Finrod & Company very forms & faces are transformed into the likenesses of the Orcs.
Could not a wizard (Istari) who's skill is in 'shapes & hues' not do the same thing an Elf could? 
*


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 23, 2009)

I really like the Radagast idea, never would've made the connection myself.

I also imagine Gandalf pulling an Obi-wan Kenobi, telling the guards "You will let me pass", even though verbal persuasion was more Saruman's domain.

On a related note, it was in Dol Guldur that Gandalf found Thrain and got the map and key from him that were later used in the Quest of Erebor. The Ring was taken from Thror, however the map and key were not. Yes, Sauron coveted all the Rings of Power, but surely he or his servants can't have thought a map and key worthless! And if they found (extracted?) something as small as a ring, how could he have concealed a map and key?


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## Bucky (Feb 23, 2009)

*Yes, one has to wonder about that too.

The map which Gandalf says in Unfinished Tales, 'The Quest For Erebor', belonged to 'Durin's folk in Moria' (how's that?)......

It is a difficult storyline to sustain with realism, especially considering that when Frodo is captured and taken to Cirith Ungol, Shagrat says: "Prisoner is to be stripped. Full description of every article, garment, weapon, letter, ring, or trinket is to be sent to Lugberz and only Lugberz at once. ...." *


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## Ancalagon (Feb 23, 2009)

From my reading, and that is cursory at best for now, but did Gandalf enter Dol Guldur twice? I am not sure whether the first time in 2063 he actually goes inside Dol Guldur when Sauron is driven out, but in 2850, he definately does enter where he speaks to Thráin. 
However, in the Tale of Years, it suggests he 'again enters' Dol Guldur. So, it's fair to say whatever method of entry he employed, he did so twice if my understanding is correct. 
On page 170 of UT Gandalf says: 'I remembered a dangerous journey of mine, ninety-one years before, when I had entered Dol Guldur in disguise, and had found there an unhappy Dwarf dying in the pits.' I cannot find any reference to what that disguise may have been, but as Bucky suggests, being Istari, he is certainly imbued with the ability to transform his guise, as he did when entering Middle-Earth. The question for me remains however, did he enter twice and how exactly did he do it?


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 23, 2009)

Don't worry, Anc, my memory is just as rusty, if not more. In fact, you have just reminded me that Gandalf had been there before!  I think there is no question whether he went there twice.

As for this:



> being Istari, he is certainly imbued with the ability to transform his guise, as he did when entering Middle-Earth.



I would say their "guise", that is of old men, was imposed upon them and they had no control over it, until after their task was done or they left Middle-earth in one way or another. So I suppose if Gandalf was indeed helped by Radagast, the Brown wizard would have employed some kind of spells that would temporarily give Gandalf an appearance that would be inconspicuous to the guards/denizens of Dol Guldur.


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