# A question about Glorfindel.



## Link (Dec 6, 2002)

Now, If I remember correctly, (from The Encyclopedia of Arda), Tolkien never gave a concrete reference, but he indeed meant that Glorfindel of Rivendell was the reincarnated Glorfindel from Gondolin. Gandalf even mentions something about ones like Glorfindel existing both in the West and in ME. Now, Glorfindel of Gondolin fought and killed a balrog during the sack of Gondolin in the Sil. During this battle, he himself was killed (hence that he was re-incarnated thereafter), but this battle secured the escape of Tuor, Idril and Earendil. Now, in the Fellowship of the Ring, we see Glorfindel as a slight subordinate to Elrond. Why would Glorfindel be a lesser lord of Elrond, if he was the one who secured Elrond's father's (Earendil) escape and killed a Balrog in the process? Wouldn't Glorfindel be consisdered higher of stature than Elrond then?


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## Proudfoots (Dec 6, 2002)

Maybe it had something to do with senority, like at a factory.

Glorfindel went on an extended leave of absence (death) and because of that Elrond got the promotion instead. That capitalist pig.

It seems that work place politics clutter up even the greatest of societies...

Hobbits of the World Unite!!

'foots


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## HLGStrider (Dec 7, 2002)

I guess it would be the Elven ring... 

Also there was Elrond's "connections." He was married to Galadriel's daughter... just a thought.

Then his assistance of Gil-Gilad. The flag bearer, an honorable position. He was also one of the Half-Elven, a position of awe made for those doomed great lives.


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## BrandonBrassbow (Dec 7, 2002)

i read that the second Glorfindel was actually a mistake. 
Tolkien said that he accidently named the second character Glorfindel. and because elves names are unique and are not named after previous elves, it couldn't of been a different elf by the same name. 
he let the story of middle earth create itself, so if he made a mistake he put a reason behind it, ie: Glorfindel. after discovering the mistake, instead of changing it he said that he must've been a reincarnate of the previous Glorfindel. 
so i think that that Glorfindel doesn't share the same past as the first one.


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## Arvedui (Dec 7, 2002)

> so i think that that Glorfindel doesn't share the same past as the first one.


I didn't quite catch that one. If he is a reincarnation of himself, I would suppose he didn't chance background?

But the rest of your statement I believe is correct. To my understanding, it is written somewhere in the HoME books.


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## BrandonBrassbow (Dec 7, 2002)

> I didn't quite catch that one. If he is a reincarnation of himself, I would suppose he didn't chance background?



i was saying that he probably already developed the 2nd Glorfindel character before he realized the mistake, therefore giving him the "subordinate" status in the original question. but after he attributed Glorfindel's reapperance to reincarnation, he gave the 2nd, the 1st's history, so i was wrong in saying that they didn't share history. what i meant to say was...orginally they weren't the same person, so Glorfindel's history didn't come into thought process of giving him his position as the reincarnate.

...if that makes any sense.


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## Ithrynluin (Dec 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Link _
> * Now, in the Fellowship of the Ring, we see Glorfindel as a slight subordinate to Elrond. Why would Glorfindel be a lesser lord of Elrond, if he was the one who secured Elrond's father's (Earendil) escape and killed a Balrog in the process? Wouldn't Glorfindel be consisdered higher of stature than Elrond then? *



Also keep in mind that Elrond was a descendant of 2 royal lines
- Turgon (<---Fingolfin <---Finwë)
- Thingol

He also had Maiarin blood and his father was allowed to find the road to Aman and sailed the skies bearing a Silmaril.


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## Link (Dec 7, 2002)

Well, so was Glorfindel:

Glorfindel <-------(a descendant of Finarfin)<-----------(the last son of Finwe and Indis (Indis being a Vanyar Elf).

Glorfindel was also described as being an Elf prince from a line of noble princes.


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## Ithrynluin (Dec 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Link _
> *Well, so was Glorfindel:
> 
> Glorfindel <-------(a descendant of Finarfin)<-----------(the last son of Finwe and Indis (Indis being a Vanyar Elf).*



This is mere speculation. He was an elf prince, but that doesn't necessarily make him a member of the "foremost" royal family (that of Finwë). There could have been other (lesser) royal families, and Glorfindel a descendant of one of these.

Check out what I said in the thread Glorfindel


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## Link (Dec 7, 2002)

Don't worry, I'm followin that thread closely also.


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## Beorn (Dec 7, 2002)

What's the deal with Glorfindel may help


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## Athelas (Dec 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Proudfoots _
> *Glorfindel went on an extended leave of absence (death) and because of that Elrond got the promotion instead. That capitalist pig.
> 
> *



<snicker> 

>he let the story of middle earth create itself, so if he made a mistake he put a reason behind it<

I have noticed, both in maskmaking and writing, that mistakes have led to some wonderful things I might not ever have intentionally created.


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## Cian (Dec 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by BrandonBrassbow:_ i read that the second Glorfindel was actually a mistake. Tolkien said that he accidently named the second character Glorfindel.



At one point during the writing of LOTR the Prof wrote: _"Glorfindel tells of his ancestry in Gondolin."_ (LOTR drafts). JRRT lifted a name already invented. Names Legolas and Gimli, for examples, also already appeared in BOLT.



> ... and because elves names are unique and are not named after previous elves, it couldn't of been a different elf by the same name.



What JRRT said was: _The repetition of so striking a name, though possible, would not be credible. No other major character in the Elvish legends as reported in the Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings has a name borne by another Elvish person of importance."_

But even this was simply JRRT working out if he indeed really wanted the two Elves to be the same. He could have simply changed the name of the famed Elf if desired.

__________

_"It would indeed have been open to him to change the name of Glorfindel of Gondolin, who had appeared in no published writing, but he did not mention this possibility."_ ~ Christopher Tolkien
__________



> ... he let the story of middle earth create itself, so if he made a mistake he put a reason behind it, ie: Glorfindel. after discovering the mistake, instead of changing it he said that he must've been a reincarnate of the previous Glorfindel. so i think that that Glorfindel doesn't share the same past as the first one.



Tolkien decided (at least in the texts in HOME) that they were the same, and so, they indeed shared the same past. But I don't see how an Elf named Glorfindel in LOTR would be a "mistake".

JRRT merely stated that the name "escaped reconsideration" in the final published form of LOTR (though he certainly had enough time during the writing of LOTR to 'consider' it). He followed that this was unfortunate for linguistic reasons, regarding the form of the name anyway.


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## Maeglin (Dec 8, 2002)

ooohhh fun fun I love Glorfindel threads! 
But anyway I posted something about Glorfindel's ancestry a long time ago in a thread that didn't have anything to do with good old Glory, check it out . 

Now about him being subordinate to Elrond I guess its because of Elrond's ring, but Glorfindel is older and therefore I'd say wiser, but because he was gone for so long they gave Elrond a place of authority and power, but Glorfindel should be above him. But I'm not even really srue that he is subordinate to Elrond so much as he is more of an equal to him, I don't think Elrond would ever command Glor to do something, he would probably ask it of him as a friend and since Glor is such a good guy he'd do it anyway if it helps others. Just my thoughts


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## Eledhwen (Dec 8, 2002)

I think Glorfindel had no problem with being subordinate to Elrond in Rivendell, because he had nothing to prove.


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## Maeglin (Dec 8, 2002)

you're right he didn't have anything to prove, but that doesn't necessarily make him subordinate, he could still be an equal, and no one ever said he had a problem with being subordinate, only I have a problem with him being subordinate.


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## Turgon (Dec 8, 2002)

I think that the simplest answer to this question is that Rivendell was, after all, the House of Elrond. Glorfindel then would only be 'subordinate' in the manner that all guests are to the Master of the House. But it's notable that he holds a place of honour at Elrond's side. Can we really expect an Elf Lord of Glorfindel's breeding to be so churlish as to usurp Elrond's place at the head of table...?!?



> _Bilbo Baggins in 'Many Meetings'_
> '...he said that if I had the cheek to make verses about Eärendil in the house of Elrond it was my affair...'



Maybe Elrond was touchy about these things...


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## HLGStrider (Dec 9, 2002)

Yes, it was his home... I can't remember the origins of Rivendell, Imladris... though I do remember a Tolkien quote saying that calling Rivendell Imladris was about the same as calling Cambridge Camelot.. or something like that.

Did Elrond found Imladris or just inherit it?


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## Mablung (Dec 9, 2002)

Founded I believe unless Im sorely mistaken.


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## Eriol (Dec 9, 2002)

It's a pity I don't come here in weekends... my instinctive answer was that given by Turgon: it is his house. I remember the attitude of Aragorn when requested to relinquish Andúril, he said something like "...even if this was but a woodman's cot I would bow to the will of the master of the house...". Sounds satisfying enough to sort out the hierarchy at Rivendell.

Also, Elrond founded Imladris after Eregion was destroyed, and brought the remnants of the Noldor that lived there. He was the second-in-command (after Gil-galad) in the Noldor hierarchy, and after Gil-galad passed he assumed the leadership of the remnant. Was Glorfindel around at that time? Does anyone know when Glorfindel returned to ME? I think not, but could be wrong. And if he was not around, then even if he has a greater lineage (very doubtful) and power he would accept Elrond as the leader of the Noldor, chosen by the last High King.


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## Maeglin (Dec 9, 2002)

I think Glorfindel came to Middle-Earth about the same time as the Ithryn Luin(blue istari), but I'm not entirely sure, it might have been the same time as Gandalf though. But if he came to Middle-Earth with the Ithryn Luin then I think he was around the time Gil-Galad died, or maybe that was very soon after. But if he came later then I can understand why Elrond would get his place higher up. 

oh and the quote that you said aragorn gave I find to be kind of ironic because if you remember he didn't want to give up his sword at Edoras.


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## LUCIFER (Jan 10, 2012)

So who is more powerful? Glorfindel or Elrond? if Glorfindel has been to Valinor and back surely he would be the "stronger" one but Elrond has the ring, any thoughts?


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## host of eldar (Jan 10, 2012)

I believe that Glorfindel of Rivendell is the exact one of Gondolin. no doubts. his story is the same as Gandalf and maybe he was more valiant at the second time. 
I think Glorfindel is one of the mightiest of elves and men; few ones of whom could stand against sauron. he is not a noldor. maybe he has vanyar blood by his mother but I think the point is; as noldor was the most active and effective elves and vanyar was too few, noldor breed was a bit more valuable we can say. that is for beleriand of course. so glorfindel and ecthelion was subordinated among those noldor princes. but we know their value of course. and I got this from 

http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/h/highkingofthenoldor.html 

"Gil-galad was the last High King; after his time the title is never used. In order of succession, the Kingship would presumably have fallen on Turgon's descendants; Eärendil (who was in the West and could not exercise it) or his eldest son Elrond (who never made claim to the Kingship)."

that shows elrond could be a high king if he would claim it. he has noldor blood. he was the significant one the affair between elrond-glorfindel is as turgon-glorfindel. I came to that basic conclusion.

then who is stronger? I completely believe that glorfindel is mightier.. his entourage was mightier (ecthelion,turgon,tuor..), his enemies were mightier (balrogs, dragons..) and he was mightier as a warrior with his illustrious armor. elrond fought a lesser war against sauron, he had many allies and I dont know if he had a close combat with sauron.


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## Bucky (Jan 11, 2012)

Glorfindel & Durin's Bane are the two most oft-discussed & idolized minor charactors in TLOR by FAR......

Well, Tolkien works are kinda like the bible is today: people interpret them anyway they chose, instead of letting the text speak for themselves.

You can think Glorfindel is 'greater' than Elrond, but Tolkien doesn't present it that way in The Lord of the Rings by any stretch of the imagination.

'In Many Meetings', Glorfindel is described thusly:

(from a power standpoint only)

'on his brow sat wisdom, & in his hand was strength.'

Compare to Tolkien's description of Elrond:

'Venerable he seemed as as king crowned with many winters, and yet hale as a tried warrior in the fulness of his strength. He was Lord of Rivendell and mighty among both Elves and Men.'

Yes, Glorfindel is a High Elf, but Elrond has 3 things Glorfindel does not:

1. Maian blood from Melian.
2. The best Elven blood from all three houses: Noldorin, Vanyarin & Telarian, which is always presented as being a far cut above the average Elf of that house.
3. A powerful Ring of Power, the most powerful of The Three.

For just one example, Glorfindel can't protect Frodo from the Nine, but they begin to set foot into Elrond's valley & he washes all of them away in a flood in seconds flat...

Now tell me again who's got more power? ;*)


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## Elthir (Jan 11, 2012)

What's this? A Glorfindel thread I'm not part of! Never!




host of eldar said:


> I believe that Glorfindel of Rivendell is the exact one of Gondolin.



That's what Tolkien concluded, yes.



> I think Glorfindel is one of the mightiest of elves and men; few ones of whom could stand against sauron. he is not a noldor.



Here however, Tolkien concluded that Glorfindel was Noldorin -- he was originally imagined as one of the Noldoli (see The Book of Lost Tales, Fall of Gondolin) and ended up one of the Noldor.


Now, any other old Glorfindel threads lurking hidden in the back of the forums? don't make me go back there!


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## Troll (Jan 22, 2012)

I heard it said somewhere - though probably not any official source - that Glorfindel returned to Middle-Earth on the same ship that bore the Istari. It stands to reason; I can't think of any other traffic from Valinor to the rest of the world, unless Glorfindel hitched a ride with Earendil and parachuted down to Middle-Earth or something.

The more interesting question about Glorfindel, IMO, is not how or if he came back from the halls of Mandos, but rather _why_? What did Glorfindel accomplish with his second life? There's only one thing that we know of, and that was saving Frodo from the Nine. Perhaps Manwe knew that there would come a day when the fate of everything would rely on one guy in the right place at the right time, a guy with the kind of spiritual power and skill in horsemanship that can only be found in a hero of the Elder Days (or Liv Tyler). XD

On a last note, I feel as though questions of "power" are a bit silly in the context of the High Elves of Middle-Earth. What would a show of "power" entail in that social setting? For ones such as Glorfindel and Elrond, among the last survivors of a dying race, how would they even measure against each other? Given the presentation of the Elves as collegial among their own narrowly-defined subgroups, why would Glorfindel challenge Elrond or vice-versa? They are allies and possibly kin; neither would stand to gain anything by stirring up trouble and would probably lose face.

I'd bet the Rivendell elves generally spit on the Mirkwood elves, though. A race so obsessed with bloodlines and ancestry strikes me as a ripe field for all kinds of bigotry and discrimination, even if they're ostensibly too "pure" for that kind of thing.


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## Starbrow (Jan 22, 2012)

I agree with Troll. I consider Glorfindel and Elrond to be peers. They are obviously both powerful elves, but I don't know that they would have a contest (arm wrestling or something) to see who was top dog. I think they respect each other and the strengths that each of them has.


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## Bard the Bowman (Jan 22, 2012)

I tend to agree with Troll (a.k.a. Galin). To me Glorfindel is more a warrior. Obviously; he took down a balrog. Elrond's main strength is in wisdom it seems.


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## host of eldar (Jan 24, 2012)

Starbrow said:


> They are obviously both powerful elves, but I don't know that they would have a contest (arm wrestling or something) to see who was top dog. I think they respect each other and the strengths that each of them has.


 
it's ridiculous to think that way. we dont need to witness a contest to argue their strength. first of all this ideas are all prediction. we are trying to find out something close to real(or truth). and we use writings,books,informations etc. to modify our idea to find an answer to our question. someone said that tolkiens works are like bible, he was right. we can make an argument of a thing and yet come to opposite conclusions. the more we cling on books the more we will be on the right scent. there is no certain true or false.. 
so I say Glorfindel. he is more warriorlike. Elrond has a great wisdom though..


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## Troll (Jan 27, 2012)

Well, if they did "fight" in any useful sense of the term, we'd have to take Elrond's Ring into consideration. Vilya may not have been designed as a weapon - as the Three Rings were more about protection and healing - but if it's good for anything at all, I imagine it would help Elrond take a hit or two, or at least help him fight on through his wounds.

Glorfindel fought in the Fall of Gondolin, slew a Balrog and died. Elrond fought in the War of the Last Alliance as Gil-Galad's standard bearer and was generally out and about in Middle-Earth contesting the will of the Enemy for millennia during the Second and Third Ages while Glorfindel was chilling in Valinor. For as much as he's renowned as a sage and a scholar, Elrond may actually have more battlefield experience than Glorfindel. For comparison, look at how much ass Gandalf kicked on a regular basis (fought the Nine on Weathertop, most impressively IMO), yet he's not reputed as a warrior, rather as a wizard.

I'd put my money on Elrond. He's smarter, more experienced, and probably mystically more powerful. Plus, those smiths who reforged Narsil? Those guys work for Elrond. If he needed a sword, armor, etc to take on Glorfindel, they'd have his back. Glorfindel, on the other hand, had better hope he brought his own gear, 'cause I doubt anyone in Rivendell, Lorien, or Lindon would be lending him any materiel.

P.S. ~ Don't forget Elladan and Elrohir. I hear those guys are pretty handy in a fight, and I'm sure they wouldn't take kindly to their dad getting smacked around by some hero of elder days.


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## Bucky (Feb 1, 2012)

Folks are _so_ exagerating when it comes to Glorfindel in Middle-earth...

They are like an autistic child 'persevertating' (obsessively focusing) on two things:

Durin's Band
Glorfindel

Before you go PC on me, I HAVE an autistic child....

I'm simply making a point about how out of skew things are: two minor characters people go wild making these in-depth studies on when Tolkien himself wasn't positive on a lot of things....

The fact is in 'Many meetings', Elrond is described 'hale as a warrior in the fulness of his strength' ~ wasn't HE the one that was in final battle on Mount Doom when Sauron was thrown down the first time?

Where was Glorfindel? This suggests that Tolkien hadn't even settled that Glorf was back at the time he wrote TLOR & decided later, like when he wrote the Appendices & included Glorfindel in the battle where the Witch-king was defeated that Glorfindel was in Middle-earth in the Second Age!

Otherwise, such a mighty Elf warrior would've been beside Cirdan, Isidur, Elendil, Elrond, & Gil-Galad right? Orr would he be?

Where's Celeborn, who rules an entire kingdom? :*eek:


Here we have Glorfindel, a mere 'warrior'...

I don't think, either, that it's so clear-cut that he's 'more powerful' than Elrond.

Let's see: Glorfindel can't protect Frodo from the Nine; he simply sends Frodo fleeing on a horse...

One step into Elriond's territory & the Nine get washed away in a flood. 
Humm...

But, you say, Glorfindel's a High Elf, seen the Light of the Trees..

True, but Elrond comes from the blood of all three royal families that went to Valinor, which is always presented as being far more noble & powerful. He also has Maian blood from Melian & he carries the most powerful of the Three Elven Rings.

Elrond is no question the more powerful.


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## Troll (Feb 3, 2012)

Bucky said:


> Where was Glorfindel? This suggests that Tolkien hadn't even settled that Glorf was back at the time he wrote TLOR & decided later, like when he wrote the Appendices & included Glorfindel in the battle where the Witch-king was defeated that Glorfindel was in Middle-earth in the Second Age!


 That battle was around 1970ish of the Third Age, not the Second Age. At the time he saved Earnur from the Witch-King, Glorfindel had been kicking around Middle Earth for 900 years.


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