# Ancalagon the Black?



## Erestor Arcamen (Dec 2, 2004)

I was reading in LOTR, and on P. 59, Gandalf says:



> Not even dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough; nor was there ever any dragon, not even Ancalagon the Black, who could have harmed the One Ring, the Ruling Ring, for that was made by Sauron himself.



Does this mean there are some dragons left? just not as powerful? 

Second of all, who's Ancalagon the Black? I never heard of him before LOTR as far as I can remember.


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## Maeglin (Dec 2, 2004)

*Re: Ancalogon the Black?*

There are no dragons left, Smaug was the last one, I believe that Gandalf goes on to mention that in that same conversation with Frodo. 
You have not heard of Ancalagon the Black in LotR because he has no part in it. He is from the First Age of Middle-Earth, which you can read about in the Silmarillion. He was the most powerful dragon to have lived in Middle-Earth and was the most powerful of Morgoth's servants next to only Sauron. (Someone will correct me if I'm wrong on that last statement about him being the most powerful)


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## Ithrynluin (Dec 2, 2004)

*Re: Ancalogon the Black?*



> There are no dragons left, Smaug was the last one, I believe that Gandalf goes on to mention that in that same conversation with Frodo.



I don't think that's quite so. I believe Smaug was the last _great_ dragon, but that others may still be found, probably in the Withered Heath up North. 

Additionally, it is possible Smaug the Golden may have been the last _fire-drake_ in Middle-earth, and there are still _cold-drakes_ left (though how Gandalf would have known that is unclear), but lacking the ability to breathe fire, they would be irrelevant in the melting-the-ring discussion.



> He was the most powerful dragon to have lived in Middle-Earth and was the most powerful of Morgoth's servants next to only Sauron. (Someone will correct me if I'm wrong on that last statement about him being the most powerful)



I'd say it's debatable. I wouldn't say he was more powerful than the Balrogs, or at least Gothmog their leader. Also, Ancalagon may have been the mightiest where raw strength is concerned, but if we take cunning, wisdom and malice into consideration, my vote goes to Glaurung without much hesitation.

However, I'd definitely put Ancalagon the Black into the top ten list of Morgoth's most powerful servants that we know of (Sauron, the 7 (?) Balrogs, Glaurung, Ancalagon...).


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## MichaelMartinez (Dec 3, 2004)

*Re: Ancalogon the Black?*

One of Tolkien's letters addresses this issue. He was asked if Smaug was indeed the last of the dragons, and his reply was that Smaug was the last of the great dragons, but that dragons continued. He specifically mentioned Chrysophylax (from _Farmer Giles of Ham_) as an example of a post-Smaug dragon. Some people have used that letter to suggest that _Farmer Giles_ should perhaps be included in the Middle-earth mythology. The connection is, at best, tenuous, as Tolkien was writing about creatures of legend.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Dec 5, 2004)

Well I went back to the Silmarillion(which I've read twice so far) and I found Ancalagon, I remember him now. Thanks for all the helpful replies


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## Morgoth of Udun (Dec 11, 2004)

yeah ancalagon would def go on top but i think it would actully be gothmog next because it says in one of my books that gothmog was actully stronger than sauron....yes there are some ice-drakes still left but gandalf killed most because he is a drake slayer


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## GuardianRanger (Dec 11, 2004)

*Re: Ancalogon the Black?*



Ithrynluin said:


> However, I'd definitely put Ancalagon the Black into the top ten list of Morgoth's most powerful servants that we know of (Sauron, the 7 (?) Balrogs, Glaurung, Ancalagon...).



How about the Nazgul? Where would they fit in that list?



MichaelMartinez said:


> One of Tolkien's letters addresses this issue. He was asked if Smaug was indeed the last of the dragons, and his reply was that Smaug was the last of the great dragons.....



Which letter is that? 



Morgoth of Udun said:


> yeah ancalagon would def go on top but i think it would actully be gothmog next because it says in one of my books that gothmog was actully stronger than sauron....yes there are some ice-drakes still left but gandalf killed most because he is a drake slayer



Gandalf killed most? It's been a long day, and I'm pretty tired (not that that's much of an excuse,) but I don't remember reading that.


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## Inderjit S (Dec 12, 2004)

> How about the Nazgul? Where would they fit in that list?



Technically speaking, the Nazgul were the servants of Sauron not Morgoth.  Neither Smaug nor the Balrog were servants of Sauron. But the Nazgul's main asset is the fear they generate-the Balrog was a lot greater at generating fear and also physically a lot stronger. The Nazgul were nowhere near as powerful as some of Morgoth's great servants.



> Gandalf killed most? It's been a long day, and I'm pretty tired (not that that's much of an excuse,) but I don't remember reading that.



Fan-fiction, perhaps?


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## Ithrynluin (Dec 12, 2004)

*Re: Ancalogon the Black?*



Morgoth of Udun said:


> yeah ancalagon would def go on top but i think it would actully be gothmog next because it says in one of my books that gothmog was actully stronger than sauron....yes there are some ice-drakes still left but gandalf killed most because he is a drake slayer



That _does_ seem like it came straight out of some sort of fan writing. As far as I know, nowhere does it say that Gothmog was stronger than Sauron, let alone that Gandalf was a 'drake slayer'.



GuardianRanger said:


> How about the Nazgul? Where would they fit in that list?



Pretty much what Inderjit said. Morgoth's greatest servants come first, then there are the many Maiaric spirits that were drawn to his splendour, and only _then_ would the Nazgul get their place on the list, I suppose.



> Which letter is that?



#144



> Some stray answers. Dragons. They had not stopped; since they were active in far later times, close to our own. Have I said anything to suggest the final ending of dragons? If so it should be altered. The only passage I can think of is Vol. I p. 70 : 'there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough'. But that implies, I think, that there are still dragons, if not of full primeval stature.


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## Gothmog (Dec 12, 2004)

> yeah ancalagon would def go on top but i think it would actully be gothmog next because it says in one of my books that gothmog was actully stronger than sauron..


Gothmog might have been "Stronger" than Sauron we are not told enough of their physical prowess to truly judge (though it was Gothmog rather than Sauron that went into battles) but this does not matter.


> The Silmarillion: Of the Enemies
> Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror.
> Among those of his servants that have names *the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel.* In his beginning he was of the Maiar of Aulë, and he remained mighty in the lore of that people. In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself.


So Sauron (or Gorthaur the Cruel) was the Greatest of Morgoths servants and indeed it would appear, his second in command. It is said, in the Sil: chapter 17: Of the coming of men into the west, that Morgoth


> secretly under shadow he himself departed from Angband, and went forth into Middle-earth, leaving to Sauron the command of the War.


 So at this time even Gothmog would have been under the command of Sauron (though I doubt that he would have accepted this if not for Morgoth)


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## GuardianRanger (Dec 12, 2004)

*Re: Ancalogon the Black?*



Ithrynluin said:


> #144



Thanks. That's what I was looking for. And thanks for the quote itself.

I threw out the Nazgul only because they struck so much fear into the peoples of Middle Earth. Of course, I realize they were Sauron's forces and not Morgoth's. I'm trying to think of any other named forces of evil, and I can't for the life of me. Carcharoth comes to mind, but I don't think he was as powerful as any of the drakes or balrogs.


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