# The 'Orders' of Eä



## Ancalagon (Oct 17, 2002)

> Though Manwë is their King and holds their allegiance under Eru, in majesty they are peers, surpassing beyond compare all others, whether of the Valar and the Maiar, or of any other *order* that Ilúvatar has sent into Eä.


 The Silmarillion

What other 'Orders' could this reference refer to? Are the Children of Ilúvatar considered part of an 'Order?'


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## Ithrynluin (Oct 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ancalagon _
> *What other 'Orders' could this reference refer to? Are the Children of Ilúvatar considered part of an 'Order?' *



Maybe this pertains to creatures like the Eagles,Ents,some other "spirits" like Huan,Draugluin,Thuringwethil or unique beings such as Tom Bombadil and Goldberry.
Like you said,it is also possible that the Children were considered part of this "Order".


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## gate7ole (Oct 17, 2002)

> From the Book of Lost Tales (HOME I)
> "Brownies, fays, pixies, leprawns, and what else are they not called, for their number is very great... they were born before the world and are older than its oldest, and are not of it"


These are some other 'orders'. I think that those along with the Ainur constitute total of the spirits of ME.
Also, I don't consider the Children of Illuvatar "orders" since they seemed to have a special role and the whole destiny of the world was strongly related with them. Of course I may be wrong


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## Ravenna (Oct 17, 2002)

I would also not rate the Children of Illuvatar as one of the 'orders' although, I admit, I have no idea what the others may be apart from those mentioned above.
As to the Children, they were not 'sent by Illuvatar' into the world, but their existence began and was bounded within it, unlike the Valar and Maiar, who existed outside of Arda, before it's creation, and presumably would continue to exist after it's destruction.


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## Ancalagon (Oct 18, 2002)

> I would also not rate the Children of Illuvatar as one of the 'orders' although, I admit, I have no idea what the others may be apart from those mentioned above.



The spirits that inhabit the Children of Eru would suggest an origin of an order! Consider those spirits who were summoned when Yvanna's thought awoke. I would have considered these spirits of an order, separate from the Ainur. Similarly, I would think that the awakening of Elves and Men drew their spirits from the same spiritual pot (Order). Eru gifts each life with a spirit.


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## Maedhros (Oct 18, 2002)

> The spirits that inhabit the Children of Eru would suggest an origin of an order!


I would have to agree with you Anc. The fëar of the Children of Ilúvatar are a part of themselves. The order of the Children of Ilúvatar. Hmmmmm.


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## Ancalagon (Oct 19, 2002)

Walter had an interesting take on the origin of spirits from Iluvatar, I hope he will look in here and remind me where we had discussed the concept?


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## Walter (Oct 19, 2002)

Maybe Anc is referring to this thread.

I have to admit I do not understand the passage of the Valaquenta Maedhros originally quoted. I used to think that Ilúvatar sent only one "order" into Eä: Ainur. Especially since in the next paragraph Tolkien declares the Maiar _"of the same order as the Valar but of less degree..."_, IMO everything else was "sub-creation" happening within Eä, to which the statement _"...sent into Eä..."_ would not - at least not literally -apply...

So I can only refer to my first signature line: Scio me nihil scire...

PS: Anc, thanks for the reminder in the first line of your signature, but ... you know ... the process of thinking can be very slow and tedious for some people, like myself, so I hope you won't mind much if I continue to post without having to overly stress my mediocre intellect...


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## Maedhros (Oct 19, 2002)

Walter, the quote that I used was not from the books, it was from Ancalagon. Otherwise, I would have said where did I got it. 
Let me do a little research about the "orders" and then I will get back to you Anc.


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## Walter (Oct 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Maedhros _
> *Walter, the quote that I used was not from the books, it was from Ancalagon. Otherwise, I would have said where did I got it.
> Let me do a little research about the "orders" and then I will get back to you Anc. *


 Oooops - my bad Maedhros...


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## Ancalagon (Oct 19, 2002)

To be honest, I was hoping this discussion would be a voyage of discovery and not a full-fledged arguementative debate. I would honestly like to get to the bottom of the question of 'orders'


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## Camille (Oct 19, 2002)

Hello guys! How are you! well about the orders I remember Gandalf words, describing himself as part of an order, and Sarumasn also(?!?), I think that what they call order is like a different race, or different kind, I bet The valar are not the same as the children of Iluvatar!
good to be back!


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## Confusticated (Oct 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Camille _
> *Hello guys! How are you! well about the orders I remember Gandalf words, describing himself as part of an order, and Sarumasn also(?!?), I think that what they call order is like a different race, or different kind, I bet The valar are not the same as the children of Iluvatar!
> good to be back! *


I think that Gandalf's use of the word was different than Tolkien's use..at least the use in The SIlmarillion.
In the Silmarillion it is said (by the author) that the Maiar were of the same order as the Valar.
This could be something like the way that every type of monkey and ape (among other animals who's names I do not recall) are of the order of primates. There are then suborders to which only the apes belong, and after that there are families..for example one that only Orangutans would belong..and even after that there are two varieties of Orangutan.
Anyhow....I think that race is not synominous with order in either case..Tolkien's book or in biological classifications used by our scientists.
I think that there are groups within orders, and sometimes groups within those groups..(races).
So I would say that Gandalf is of the order of the Ainur, suborder of the Maiar, then family of the wizards.
I guess the word race could be used for any of the above..Order, suborder (though I didn't see Tolkien use that word) or family.
I think that elves and humans may be of the same order...yet the races differ.


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## Maedhros (Oct 20, 2002)

> good to be back!


Good to have you back Camille. 
This is what I have found from Myths Transformed:


> All rational minds / spirits deriving direct from Eru are 'equal' - in order and status - though not necessarily 'coëval' or of like original power.


Hmmmm. What that means is something althogether different.


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