# Could there be a "good" orc/goblin/troll etc?



## Rivendell_librarian (Jul 8, 2020)

In WW2 films (made by the allies) we often come across the "good German" usually in the Wehrmacht/German Navy rather than SS/Gestapo.
In Tolkien's oeuvre we come across men/elves/dwarves (even hobbits?) who are seduced by the dark side but I can't think of any orcs/goblins etc who can be called "good" in the "good German" sense.
Is this because of the nature of faerie?


----------



## grendel (Jul 8, 2020)

"The Enemy Below" in particular is a film where Hollywood got around to portraying "good Germans", who were not entirely down with the war and the whole Nazi schtick, but were just trying to do their jobs. In terms of M-E, it would be difficult to imagine an Orc being "good" while they were being driven by the evil will of Sauron. Once the Ring was destroyed and Sauron essentially rendered impotent, could some Orcs wander to the good side? They are living, thinking beings, so I suppose it's possible. Tolkien never pursued that line of thinking, as far as I know.


----------



## Halasían (Jul 9, 2020)

I would say that the movie 'Cross of Iron portrays Sgt Steiner (played by James Coburn) as a 'good' German along with Col Brandt (James Mason) and Captain Keisel (David Warner).

As far as the evil beings of Middle Earth, I never could see orcs or trolls as being 'good'. Who knows... if Shagrat and Gorbag hadn't killed each other and actually 'set up' together somewhere, their tavern may have been a rocking joint.


----------



## Deleted member 12094 (Jul 9, 2020)

Halasían said:


> if Shagrat and Gorbag hadn't killed each other and actually 'set up' together somewhere, their tavern may have been a rocking joint.



I think they were considering slightly different plans, Halasían! 

In RotK, the chapter "The Field of Cormallen" seems to suggest that without the will of Sauron they were doomed:

_The Captains bowed their heads; and when they looked up again, behold! their enemies were flying and the power of Mordor was scattering like dust in the wind. As when death smites the swollen brooding thing that inhabits their crawling hill and holds them all in sway, ants will wander witless and purposeless and then feebly die, so the creatures of Sauron, orc or troll or beast spell-enslaved, ran hither and thither mindless; and some slew themselves, or cast themselves in pits, or fled wailing back to hide in holes and dark lightless places far from hope._​
Such was not the case for the Men fighting on Sauron's side; indeed, not belonging to Sauron's creatures, their reaction is markedly different:

_But the Men of Rhûn and of Harad, Easterling and Southron, saw the ruin of their war and the great majesty and glory of the Captains of the West. And those that were deepest and longest in evil servitude, hating the West, and yet were men proud and bold, in their turn now gathered themselves for a last stand of desperate battle. But the most part fled eastward as they could; and some cast their weapons down and sued for mercy._​
Besides, the fate of falling into "nothingness" (if I may describe it like this) of Sauron's creatures also befell the Nazgûl:

_the Nazgûl came, shooting like flaming bolts, as caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled, withered, and went out._​
Sadly, chances of finding "orcs-only clubs" after these events look slim, Halasían !


----------



## Halasían (Jul 9, 2020)

Lol, I was being facietious. Being that the two killed each other, it would have likely burned down the first day anyway.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jul 9, 2020)

Besides, in order to be a true "rocking" joint, they'd have had to allow trolls in. And that would have been the end of that. 😁


----------



## Olorgando (Jul 9, 2020)

Somewhere in Humphrey Carpenter's "Letters" I seem to remember that JRRT had stated that even the Orcs were not irredeemably bad (after having almost said so, but he then shied back?). But my diffuse impression is that he thought it would take almost an intervention of Eru to repair the damage done to them by Morgoth and Sauron ... 🤔


----------



## Rivendell_librarian (Jul 9, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Besides, in order to be a true "rocking" joint, they'd have had to allow trolls in. And that would have been the end of that. 😁


With limited opening hours


----------



## grendel (Jul 9, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Besides, in order to be a true "rocking" joint, they'd have had to allow trolls in. And that would have been the end of that. 😁



I suspect they would have employed trolls as bouncers.


----------



## Elthir (Jul 10, 2020)

Annoying aside: Orcs are Goblins.

Also, I think *Gando* is maybe thinking of these: from letter 153 . . .

"[Eru] gave special 'sub-creative' powers to certain of His highest created beings: that is a guarantee that what they devised and made should be given the reality of Creation. Of course within limits, and of course subject to certain commands or prohibitions. But if they "fell", as the Diabolus Morgoth did, and started making things "for himself, to be their Lord", these would then "be", even if Morgoth broke the supreme ban against making other "rational" creatures like Elves or Men. They would at least 'be' real physical realities in the physical world, however evil they might prove, even 'mocking' the Children of God. They would be Morgoth's greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad. (I nearly wrote 'irredeemably bad'; but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making — necessary to their actual existence — even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God's and ultimately good.)

But whether they could have 'souls' or 'spirits' seems a different question; and since in my myth at any rate I do not conceive of the making of souls or spirits, things of an equal order if not an equal power to the Valar, as a possible 'delegation', I have represented at least the Orcs as pre-existing real beings on whom the Dark Lord has exerted the fullness of his power in remodeling and corrupting them, not making them." *JRRT*

And Tolkien again, from* Morgoth's Ring:*

"But even before this wickedness of Morgoth was suspected the Wise in the Elder Days taught always that the Orcs were not 'made' by Melkor, and therefore were not in their origin evil. They might have become irredeemable (at least by Elves and Men), but they remained within the Law. That is, that though of necessity, being the fingers of the hand of Morgoth, they must be fought with the utmost severity, they must not be dealt with in their own terms of cruelty or treachery. Captives must not be tormented, not even to discover information for the defence of the homes of Elves and Men. If any Orcs surrendered and asked for mercy, they must be granted it, even at a cost.* This was the teaching of the Wise, though in the horror of the War it was not always heeded."



[footnote to the text] Few Orcs ever did so in the Elder Days, and at no time would any Orc treat with any Elf. For one thing Morgoth had achieved was to convince the Orcs beyond refutation that the Elves were crueller than themselves, taking captives only for 'amusement', or to eat them (as the Orcs would do at need).


----------



## Halasían (Jul 10, 2020)

Elthir said:


> [footnote to the text] Few Orcs ever did so in the Elder Days, and at no time would any Orc treat with any Elf. For one thing Morgoth had achieved was to convince the Orcs beyond refutation that the Elves were crueller than themselves, taking captives only for 'amusement', or to eat them (as the Orcs would do at need).


So the sign on the door would say 'No Elves Allowed'


----------



## Sir Eowyn (Jul 10, 2020)

They're not the best-written books in the world, but I did read Brian Jacques' "Redwall" series, in my youth. The villains are all weasels, foxes, creatures like that. Occasionally you'd find a "good" one. But yeah, can't se that happening with orcs.

This does raise the interesting question, can orcs in any way be held responsible? I mean, human beings --- and Elves, etc. --- are free to choose good or evil (so many would have it). But orcs are made that way.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jul 10, 2020)




----------



## Elthir (Jul 10, 2020)

Sir Eowyn said:


> They're not the best-written books in the world, but I did read Brian Jacques' "Redwall" series, in my youth. The villains are all weasels, foxes, creatures like that. Occasionally you'd find a "good" one. But yeah, can't se that happening with orcs.




Badgers too . . . I think? Are they the good guys, or mostly so?

🦡


----------



## Olorgando (Jul 11, 2020)

Don't know about "good".

But British author Stan Nicholls wrote a trilogy (*duh!*) (erm ... he now lives in the West Midlands of England ...) - or actually two - about them.
The first trilogy was titled _Bodyguard of Lightning_, _Legion of Thunder, _and _Warriors of the Tempest, _and was published1999, 2000 und 2001 under an overall title (sound familiar?) _Orcs: First Blood_.
The second trilogy was overall-titled _Orcs:_ _Bad Blood,_ the individual titles were _Weapons of Magical Destruction_, 2008, _Army of Shadows_, 2009, and _Inferno_, 2011 .

Has anyone read any of them?


----------



## Hisoka Morrow (Jul 12, 2020)

I'm pretty sure in the silmarillion, JRRT has clearly secured orcs are nothing but "machines only can do evil" due to being created by their creator-Morgoth, in other words, in JRRT's lore, the only good orc/goblin/troll is a dead orc/goblin/troll.
In general, JRRT's creatures's alignment mostly depend on their creator's, such as _Aulë_ Mahal and dwarves (It's another matter about JRRT's comcept about free will to each creature's change of alignment). 
Yes, there "might" be good orc/goblin/troll...only if Morgoth "truly" repents.


----------



## Matthew Bailey (Jul 16, 2020)

The issue of _Redemption_ is probably the _Central Theme_ of *both *Tolkien’s Middle-earth, *and* the Catholic Christianity that forms the underlying Foundations *for *Middle-earth.

Elthil above quotes something I was going to point out, and others have mentioned Tolkien pondering upon the ultimate fate of Orcs/Goblins (yes, _Orcs_ and _Goblins_ are *the same things*), as to whether they could be redeemed.

The crux of this matter comes down to Tolkien never having resolved: *WHAT exactly, is an “Orc?”*

Because Tolkien in his many essays written for self-edification and illumination of his _Sub-Created World_ (BTW, people rarely go into the meaning of that term as it applies to Catholicism and Christianity as a whole. It is a deep, and strange Rabbit-hole down which to descend, leading to places that cause one to say out-loud to themselves “_*SAY WHAAAAT?!*_”) on the subject of “Orcs,” Tolkien proposes many different possible Origins (Genesis), or Ontologies (Existences), for Orcs:

• They might be automata, only capable of acting under the direct “Will” of Morgoth, and possibly Sauron. In that case, they are what we would think of as no different than a wind-up clock, or an automobile: a Complex Machine, without any “Soul” or “Identity” of their own.

• They might be intelligent beasts capable of speech, like some others we have seen in Middle-earth, from Thrushes, Ravens, Great Eagles, Hounds, and Wolves. Still, in Catholic Theology, despite having some sort of “intellect” or “Capacity for Thought/Speech” even if in a very limited capacity, this does not necessarily give them a “Soul” that is necessary in Catholic/Christian Theology for a being to be “Good or Evil.”

• They might be _Minor-Spirits_, possibly even minor Maiar, who have become corrupted and debased, as have the Balrogs, save that their original stature and the depths of their corruption/perversion have so diminished them to being not much different from the Children-of-Ilúvatar in their size, and capacities, however corrupt and perverted they might be. In this case, the beings do have a “Soul,“ and thus _*SHOULD *_be able to be redeemed from the Evil they have accepted/committed/become.

Here it becomes necessary to point out a differentiation between *E*_vil_, and *e*_vil_. Tolkien was very particular about certain words that were capitalized, the most prominent being _Evil/evil, Good/good, Dark/dark, Shadow/shadow, and Light/light._. The non-capitalized versions of these things are the everyday, mundane occurrences of these things. They would be something such as lying about stealing from a cookie-jar, or picking on a younger sibling (evil – acts which by themselves are not enough to imperil the Soul of the person committing them); baking cookies, helping a neighbor to plant a garden, buying a round at the pub (good); the regular nighttime, or the darkness in a cave (dark); the shade under a parasol, or the sunlight being blocked by a wall one sits under during the heat of the day (shadow); or the illumination from a lamp or candle, or just the regular sunlight (light). These are ontologically distinct from _Evil, Good, Dark, Shadow, _and/or _Light_, which were things that could manifest as an *actual physical property*, aside from the affects upon Physical Reality that they have.

Evil perverts and distorts the Soul, which it turn will usually distort the physical appearance of a being or ”Thing.” It will take on a palpable unpleasantness that is capable of being perceived with the physical senses: Feeling “ugly” or “unpleasant” to the touch, being physically repulsive or physically “ugly,” having a noxious smell or taste (if one is to eat/drink it (as Merry/Pippin did with the Liquor the Orcs forced upon them to keep them going after being captured by Saruman’s Uruk-Hai, or having a “sound” that is itself unwholesome.

The same is true of the other “Negative” or “Positive” aspects. “Fire” is another such quality that Tolkien will at times capitalize, such as when referring to the effect of Gandalf upon others, being able to “kindle a Flame of Passion and Hope“ (BTW... On an aside... Gandalf was himself a “Spirit of Fire.” Had he been corrupted by Morgoth, he would likely have become a Balrog at least the equal to Gothmog. This was a part of the confrontation with the Balrog of Moria, where the destructive “Fire” of Hatred and Pain, would be defeated by the kindling Fire of Hope and Love).

• And lastly, Orcs/Goblins could be the corruption of Elves and/or Humans. Tolkien was confused about this, as he, like all Catholics of his time, did not understand the role of Genetics in the existence of speciation. And as such, Tolkien balked at Morgoth being able to accomplish something so heinously evil as to corrupt/pervert Elves to the extent that the children of a pair of Orcs/Corrupted-Elves would produce another Orc/Corrupted-Elf, rather than an Elf (Tolkien didn’t know that Genetic Manipulation would be the mechanism of that “corruption/perversion/debasement,” even if other forms of Corruption/Perversion/Debasement of the Soul/Spirit of the Elves/Men also occurred in the process).

But in ALL of the instances where the Orcs had/have some form of a “Soul” (even if it was just a fraction of a Soul, as was the case with one possible form of “Orc”), the _*possibility of Redemption Exists*_.

Now... Just because the “possibility exists,” does not mean that it will actually happen.

Now... It is _very likely_ that had Tolkien managed to resolve the Metaphysical and Theological conflicts he kept encountering in trying to create a Foundation for Middle-earth, Arda, and Eä as a whole, he would have eventually revealed populations of Orcs who were on the path to redemption of some sort.

If you read the Secondary and Tertiary Sources surrounding Middle-earth, both by Tolkien and others, with an eye toward discovering Tolkien’s personal, moral, and ethical conflicts he had with the _Sub-Creation_ of Middle-earth, one of the first things that leaps-out is that Tolkien was _*very disturbed *_by anything that required him to “Think like Morgoth“ (or, as Tolkien referred to him in his notes to himself: _Satan_. Tolkien also used the terms _The Devil_, and _The Diabolus_, but these latter terms were usually reserved for Sauron). He became very distraught and disturbed by his own thoughts when pondering their actions, motivations, and goals. I would not be surprised if his regular confessor would have been able to reveal a _*Great Deal More about Middle-earth *_than either JRRT, or his son, CJRT, had themselves recorded, due to Tolkien regularly destroying or “hiding” the notes/essays on these subjects that produced the most cognitive dis-ease, or else simply curtailing a branch of thought prior to its resolution due to being able to foresee that branch’s eventual destination.

And this is pretty typical with attempts to create Fictional Worlds that are based upon a particular Religious Ideology. Because pretty much 100% of the Earth’s Religious Faiths contain internal contradictions and paradoxes that are ultimately irresolvable due to the constraints of those Faiths.

This is most visible in Catholicism, as the world’s oldest Christian Theistic Faith, where we see innumerable “Heresies” that have arisen time-and-time-again with each new generation rediscovering what the Faith would call the “Sins-of-their-Fathers.”

The two “Heresy” that Tolkien collided with most often was Manicheaenism, the belief that “Good” and “Evil” are Physical, Tangible Things, and that “Evil” is _*more than *_the absence of “Good.” But there were several other Heresies he collided with in his attempts to resolve the existence of Orcs, and Morgoth, Sauron, and other beings. 

But the issue of Manicheaenism is really the _*only thing *_that can resolve the issues in Middle-earth surrounding the existence of Evil (Called “_Theodicy_” in Christian Theology: Why does Evil Exist?).

But fundamentally, on the question of:

_Could there be a “*Good*” Goblin/Orc?_

The answer is an *Emphatic “YES”*, there can be a “Good” Goblin/Orc.

But the question of: “_Did any_ _*Good Goblins/Orcs Exist* during the currently recorded History of Arda?”_

The answer is an emphatic “_*No!*_”

MB


----------



## Rivendell_librarian (Jul 16, 2020)

Thank you Matthew for such a thorough discussion of this question. I'm minded to agree with you unless shown otherwise i.e. that a good orc is possible but is never encountered in Tolkien's fiction.


----------



## Deleted member 12094 (Jul 16, 2020)

Thank you for your thoughts Matthew Bailey.

I didn't think it was so complicated. These orcs were no more, after the destruction of the Ring (nor trolls nor other creatures designed by Sauron or his mentor Morgoth). At least, that is the conclusion I personally have come to prefer (see above).

So the question (whether any of them could have become better than bad) is - well, pointless after Sauron's destruction. I'd be glad to be challenged with my simple view though...

With Sauron gone, which of those creatures could still survive and gnaw an occasional bone in the dark?


----------



## Rivendell_librarian (Jul 16, 2020)

The scope of the question was the whole history of Middle Earth not just the period after the destruction of the ring.


----------



## Matthew Bailey (Jul 16, 2020)

Merroe said:


> Thank you for your thoughts Matthew Bailey.
> 
> I didn't think it was so complicated. These orcs were no more, after the destruction of the Ring (nor trolls nor other creatures designed by Sauron or his mentor Morgoth). At least, that is the conclusion I personally have come to prefer (see above).
> 
> ...



Tolkien points out in multiple places that the Orcs survived the end of the Third Age, and became very uncommon by the middle of the 4th Age (so much so as most people thought them extinct).

And, as I point out above, there are several different possible origins, and thus different possible outcomes in terms of their “redemption;”

The issue is relevant for the entire History of Middle-earth, as been pointed-out by others, earlier the the thread.

MB


----------



## Just Another Hobbit (Jul 17, 2020)

I keep seeing different theories as to what exactly orcs are... but in the Silmarillion doesn't Melkor capture some elves and turn them into orcs? It's on page 50 in my edition


Matthew Bailey said:


> • They might be automata, only capable of acting under the direct “Will” of Morgoth, and possibly Sauron. In that case, they are what we would think of as no different than a wind-up clock, or an automobile: a Complex Machine, without any “Soul” or “Identity” of their own.
> 
> • They might be intelligent beasts capable of speech, like some others we have seen in Middle-earth, from Thrushes, Ravens, Great Eagles, Hounds, and Wolves. Still, in Catholic Theology, despite having some sort of “intellect” or “Capacity for Thought/Speech” even if in a very limited capacity, this does not necessarily give them a “Soul” that is necessary in Catholic/Christian Theology for a being to be “Good or Evil.”
> 
> • They might be _Minor-Spirits_, possibly even minor Maiar, who have become corrupted and debased, as have the Balrogs, save that their original stature and the depths of their corruption/perversion have so diminished them to being not much different from the Children-of-Ilúvatar in their size, and capacities, however corrupt and perverted they might be. In this case, the beings do have a “Soul,“ and thus _*SHOULD *_be able to be redeemed from the Evil they have accepted/committed/become.


I'm rather confused because I keep seeing different theories as to what exactly orcs are... but in the Silmarillion doesn't Melkor capture some elves and turn them into orcs? It's on page 50 in my edition...


----------



## Deleted member 12094 (Jul 17, 2020)

Rivendell_librarian said:


> The scope of the question was the whole history of Middle Earth not just the period after the destruction of the ring.



You are right there, Rivendell_librarian; point taken. So, let me correct my thoughts.

The destruction of the Ring caused also the destruction of the power of Sauron’s domination, and thus his power on his creatures:

_From all his policies and webs of fear and treachery, from all his stratagems and wars his mind shook free; and throughout his realm a tremor ran, his slaves quailed, and his armies halted, and his captains suddenly steerless, bereft of will, wavered and despaired. For they were forgotten. The whole mind and purpose of the Power that wielded them was now bent with overwhelming force upon the Mountain._​
His downfall was then followed by the apocalyptic scenes among his creatures, as was mentioned before.

I hold it, that as long as Sauron’s will was imposed on his creatures, it would seem difficult to imagine a “converted” orc or troll _before_ the destruction of the Ring (I admittedly did not make that thought clear enough), whereas they perished, be it immediately or at least quite quickly, afterwards.

That was just one opinion, obviously; nor should it downplay others' reasoning.


----------



## Olorgando (Jul 17, 2020)

If one takes JRRT's comment (from a letter, IIRC) that the beginning of the Fourth Age was about 6,000 years ago, and then adds to that some murkiness about how Saruman bred the (his?) Uruk-hai, plus some of the people fleeing from the south to Bree being described as half-Orcs ... (ask S-eS )
It would seem to me that no more "pure-bred" Orcs exist anymore. And however it was achieved, and by whom, to breed them "pure", it must have been from human stock. "Historical" records start about 1,000 years after the fall of Barad-dûr, by this hypothesis. By this time the "pure-bred" Orcs had been reabsorbed into the mainstream of human stock, as there is no dearth, more precisely no end of Orcish behavior recorded in those historical records.


----------



## Matthew Bailey (Jul 17, 2020)

Just Another Hobbit said:


> I keep seeing different theories as to what exactly orcs are... but in the Silmarillion doesn't Melkor capture some elves and turn them into orcs? It's on page 50 in my edition
> 
> I'm rather confused because I keep seeing different theories as to what exactly orcs are... but in the Silmarillion doesn't Melkor capture some elves and turn them into orcs? It's on page 50 in my edition...



Go to _*The History of Middle-earth, vol X: Morgoth’s Ring*_, and several different letters in _*The Letters of JRR Tolkien*_, and you will find rather a lot more information on the subject of “Orcs” than is contained in what Christopher Tolkien describes in the former source just mentioned as being the “very premature publication” of _*The Silmarillion*_.

Tolkien had several theological, metaphysical, and philosophical paradoxes that arose over “What are Orcs?” during his life, and his struggle to form what is described on p. x of the above mentioned volume of _*HoM-e*_ as a “coherent theological and metaphysical foundation for Middle-earth.”

That will both clear-up your confusion here, while simultaneously increasing the ambiguity over the issue as a whole.

MB


----------



## Matthew Bailey (Jul 17, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> If one takes JRRT's comment (from a letter, IIRC) that the beginning of the Fourth Age was about 6,000 years ago, and then adds to that some murkiness about how Saruman bred the (his?) Uruk-hai, plus some of the people fleeing from the south to Bree being described as half-Orcs ... (ask S-eS )
> It would seem to me that no more "pure-bred" Orcs exist anymore. And however it was achieved, and by whom, to breed them "pure", it must have been from human stock. "Historical" records start about 1,000 years after the fall of Barad-dûr, by this hypothesis. By this time the "pure-bred" Orcs had been reabsorbed into the mainstream of human stock, as there is no dearth, more precisely no end of Orcish behavior recorded in those historical records.



This is a fairly significant misreading of Tolkien’s statements regarding the connection of Middle-earth to our Earth.

Middle-earth isn’t anything, or anywhere in our Earth’s past.

It exists in a _*possible past*_.

The works of Boethius, I believe his _*Theological Tractates and Consolation of Philosophy*_, contain the relevant material on the issue of Sub-Creation as it relates to Tolkien’s Middle-earth, which will better explain how Tolkien thought of Middle-earth simultaneously as a very real place that exists “in a possible past” of this world, while at the same time being a work of Mythological Fiction, referring to a “place of the imagination.” This is a very Catholic view of something that contains a paradox, very much like the Catholic conception of a Trinity. But it addresses the issue of the “possible past” quite thoroughly.

As Tolkien points out in _*Letters*_,_ No. 153 to Peter Hastings, _Middle-earth is indeed a separate world, which had different features of Physics, Chemistry, Biology, and so-on, than does our world. Meaning that while he states elsewhere in _*Letters*_ that Middle-earth is AKIN to a supposed past of “our Earth.”



The Letters of JRR Tolkien said:


> This is a biological dictum in my imaginary world. It is only (as yet) an incompletely imagined world, a rudimentary ‘secondary’; but if it pleased the Creator to give it (in a corrected form) Reality on any plane, then you would just have to enter it and begin studying its different biology, that is all.



So... Tolkien here points out that Middle-earth is a _purely imaginary world_, distinct from our own, else one would not need “just have to enter it, and begin studying it[s different biology]...” If Middle-earth was indeed our Earth, then the “_biological dictum_” Tolkien is discussing here in this letter (which concerns Michael Hastings’ inquiries regarding the _biological immortality_ of Elves, their Reincarnation, and how Humans and Elves breed, and the fate of their children) could be resolved by simply studying the biology of the inhabitants of our world, where the genetic lineage of the Elves would remain within the offspring of the 2 Unions of Elves and Men (3, technically), which would be a quite substantial population by now.

This is something we are able to currently do in Biology (trace the Genetic Lineage of people back to specific ancestors for whom we have viable DNA samples. The discovery of the “Mitochondrial Eve” in Africa is just one specific example), and DNA would exist that revealed such properties. There are a great many other things betraying our Earth as being “Middle-earth,” and why attempts to connect the two are doomed to failure.

The quote you may be remembering from _*Letters*_ is from _Letter No. 165_, responding to an inquiry a fan made to the Publisher regarding Middle-earth, where Tolkien says at one point during his response:



The Letters of JRR Tolkien. No. 165 said:


> ... imaginatively this ‘history’ is supposed to take place in a period of the actual Old World of this planet.



However, in many other places in the remaining sources, not the least of which are other letters in _*Letters*_, Tolkien makes it very clear that Middle-earth exists _*no-where in our*_ _*ACTUAL PAST*_. Middle-earth represents a “possible past,” in the same way that all Mythology represents a “possible past.”

If one goes back to the sources, whether of fiction, or Theological, Philosophical, Metaphysical, or Academic, and becomes familiar with these (Plato, Aristotle, Boethius, Augustine, Origen, Beowulf, Gothic and Saxon History, the Norse Eddas, William Morris — From whose world Tolkien *heavily borrowed* — and other works of Chivalric Romance), and then returns to the Primary and Secondary Sources of Tolkien himself, these works then reveal a vast deal of influence and connection to Middle-earth, and many things that previously seemed to be “deeply mysterious” will suddenly become clear as day (like Tom Bombadil, just as one example).

As to the points about “Pure-Bred Orcs,” this again is contingent upon “What is an Orc?”

As is the comments regarding “Half-Orcs.” The comments on that don’t actually say “That is a “Half-Orc,” and this one is “Pure-Bred” for an Orc.” Usually the reference is something along the lines of “He appears to be more than half an Orc,” or something of the sort.

One would first need to resolve what an “Orc” actually is before one can begin any claims about “Pure-Bred,” a term that is _especially fraught_ given that it arises from only two sources,_* both hugely suspect*_ in terms of being anything real in Biological Terms.

”Pure-Bred” has its origins in the breeding of animals, and even here it is highly questionable in terms of “What genes are “pure” to begin with?”

Which brings us to the second source of “Pure-Breed/Bred:” White Nationalists/Supremacists, Nazis, and Fascists.

While “Race” is something that seems to “Actually Exist” within Middle-earth, it isn’t something that exists in our World.

And, as such, one would need to provide a definition for “Pure-Bred/Breed” to begin with, given that even in domains where such a term has a relevance (Dog and Cat Shows, The Breeding of Cattle and Horses/Thoroughbreds, and so on) it remains something that is nigh impossible to define save in terms of appearance (What is known as “Phenotype” in Biology).

And in Biology, we have discovered that what _*appear*_ to be _identical Phenotypes_ can arise from _categorically different Genotypes_ (different “Genes,” meaning that the term “Pure-Bred” becomes even harder to define).

This is a subject I have put a lot of time in toward an attempt to resolve or make any sense out of (much as the existence of “Free-Will,” another thing that turns out to be nearly impossible to define in any way that actually means anything) given that “Race” in Middle-earth is an _Actual Thing_. Dwarves, Elves, Orcs, Humans (including Hobbit), Ents, Trolls, ... These things seem to be “Actual Races” in the terms that this word has come to usually mean... But There needs to be a “Thing,” re: _Some_-Thing as opposed to _No_-Thing, that provides a means to determine ”Racial Membership” within Middle-earth... And lacking the means to “enter it and begin studying” it, the ability to discover that “thing” is elusive and complicated in locating.

MB


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jul 17, 2020)

I seriously doubt Mr. O was suggesting that Tolkien was asserting that ME was a "real" place.


----------



## Olorgando (Jul 17, 2020)

Matthew Bailey said:


> Middle-earth represents a “possible past,” in the same way that all Mythology represents a “possible past.”





Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I seriously doubt Mr. O was suggesting that Tolkien was asserting that ME was a "real" place.


Quite. In other letters (mostly to his son Christopher, but perhaps also to Michael) JRRT also states that all of his humanoid races (here more properly applied than to _Homo sapiens_, for which it is utter nonsense) are meant to display human characteristics: Elves, Men (with Hobbits as a special case), Dwarves, and Orcs. Elves going beyond what humans are capable of in the positive direction (but then there's Fëanor & Co.), Orcs in the negative. Beyond possibility lies plausibility. Elves are the most implausible, Hobbits somewhat less so. But Orcs are just too plausible. JRRT more than once commented on the "Orc-minded" in the real world. Orcishness is a part of humanity, as 5,000 years of written sources make terribly clear. One could say that separating that part of humanity into a separate race (or species) named Orcs clearly marks M-e as a fantasy world. Orcs are us.


----------

