# Was the Balrog of Moria the last?



## Smèagol_Gollum (Feb 10, 2002)

Could there be more Balrogs wandering somewhere, or was the Balrog of Moria the last? I know that Smaug the Golden was not the last, because there are more lesser Drakes and Wyverns in the Withered Heath, but there is no mention that I can recall of the fate of the rest of the Balrogs.


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## Lord Aragorn (Feb 10, 2002)

As I remember, when the Vala came to ME and cast down Morgoth, it said some of his Balrogs and such escaped into hiding. I am pretty sure that it implied that a fair number escaped the destruction of Angband, but are unaccounted for.


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## Bucky (Feb 11, 2002)

The Silmarillion:

'The Balrogs were destroyed, save some few that fled & hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth.'

Question:
If the caverns were inaccessible, how did the Balrogs get in them in the first place?


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## Beleg Strongbow (Feb 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Bucky _
> *The Silmarillion:
> 
> 'The Balrogs were destroyed, save some few that fled & hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth.'
> ...





As i was about 2 quote but Bucky beat me to it. There would have been sure to be more balrogs maybe 1 or 2. They couldn't have or been killed. Do you think that maybe the balrog/balrogs could become a new dark lord? Think about it the similarities between a balrog and sauron both maia, both corrupted by Melkor and both have evil wills and there are not many that can withstand them. Probably none since Gandalf has left along with most of the other high elves. But there is probably a few more left. Remember Gandalf said that not all the evil has left the world.


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## HLGStrider (Feb 12, 2002)

oooooooooohhhhhhhhh a sequel!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wouldn't be the same without Strider in it though...


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## Wraithguard (Aug 4, 2005)

Muhahaha! My resurrection ritual was a success. Ok more to the point considering that the Balrog of Moria was the first to be seen in a long time (if I'm not sadly mistaken) there would definatly be others. Imagine what a Balrog could do to Middle-Earth. I may start a small writing project on this.


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## AraCelebEarwen (Aug 5, 2005)

HLGStrider said:


> oooooooooohhhhhhhhh a sequel!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Wouldn't be the same without Strider in it though...



Sad to say that this is true, but just think, the hero in that could be single!  hehe 

A balrog let out would be war! It would be hard to think that there was only the one left... after all, you go into a big, dark cave. Find a path that should lead out, hear something and turn around to Gandalf's words. "And this, my friends, is a rare sight indeed. Truly this must be the last of the legendary balrogs, let's try not to disturb it in it's natural habitat."


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## Wraithguard (Aug 5, 2005)

Gandalf went away remember? The inhabitants of Middle-Earwax will have deal with Mr. Balrog themselves.


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## AraCelebEarwen (Aug 5, 2005)

lol! Well yes, I knew that! I was thinking of the scene in Moria! You know, when it's coming around the corner and Gandalf comments about it. "RUN!!!"


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## Wraithguard (Aug 5, 2005)

It makes you wonder though, where would be a great place for a Balrog? The Ered Engrin, the Ered Luin, the far east and a few other places would be the first place one would think but wouldn't it be amusing if there was a Balrog under Calenardhon, or within the Ered Nimrais. Poor, poor Gondor.


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## AraCelebEarwen (Aug 5, 2005)

*evil laughter* I can see you writing about that! The crashing, killing, mighty warriors getting crushed and turned to ash... that would save a lot in funeral costs though!   

What would happen if one turned up in the middle of a dragon's nest!?   That would be one hot battle!


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## Wraithguard (Aug 5, 2005)

I doubt a Balrog would make the Withered Heath it's home but we must not forget the possibilities of the Ered Mithrin in it's entirity. Mount Gundabad would be a prime target for Balrog Real Estate.


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## Arvedui (Aug 5, 2005)

I don't think that there were any Balrogs left after _Gandalf_ left Moria.

Tolkien once stated that there never were many Balrogs in the first place, maximum seven.
Two were slain at the time of the _Fall of Gondolin_, and only "a few" were left after _War of Wrath_. I believe that there was, in fact, only one. And we all know what became of that.

But I could of course be wrong, and it could be that Tolkien had one last remaining Balrog in mind when he started writing _The New Shadow_.


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## Inderjit S (Aug 5, 2005)

No-because the account which Christ Tolkien gives in the Silmarillion is a dated one (his account of the War of Wrath that is), in which quite a few Balrogs existed and contradict Tolkien's later thoughts on the Balrogs-that there were no more than 7, the Balrog of Moria most problably being the last of them. Remember Tolkien never thought his Silmarillion would be published, at least not in his later years. 

Arvedui-the New Shadow is an account of "mannish" evils, or a satanic cult set up by Men, I don't think a Balrog was behind it or the cause of worship and revolt.


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## baragund (Aug 5, 2005)

Um Arvedui and Inder, I've always had the impression that during the Elder Days there were many Balrogs. At least the accounts of the siege of Gondolin, the death of Feanor and the War of Wrath gave me that impression. Did Tolkien's thinking evolve in his later writings to reducing the total number to something small, like 7 or so?

Anyway, I don't see why there wouldn't be another Balrog or two that remained hidden after the Moria Balrog was killed. And perhaps they they have survived to this day, hidden in the roots of the world somewhere. After all, we _are_ living in the Seventh Age. Maybe we will uncover it when the Yucca Mountain nuclear waste depository finally gets built in Nevada


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## Greenwood (Aug 5, 2005)

Tolkien says the Moria balrog was the last one. Here is the relevant passage from his letter # 144:


> The Balrog is a survivor from the Silmarillion and the legends of the First Age. So is Shelob. The Balrogs, of whom the whips were the chief weapons, were primeval spirits of destroying fire, chief servants of the primeval Dark Power of the First Age. They were supposed to have been *all destroyed* in the overthrow of Thangorodrim, his fortress in the North, But it is here found (there is usually a hang-over especially of evil from one age to another) that *one had escaped* and taken refuge under the mountains of Hithaeglin (the Misty Mountains). It is observable that only the Elf knows what the thing is -- and doubtless Gandalf.
> [emphasis added]


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## AraCelebEarwen (Aug 5, 2005)

baragund said:


> After all, we _are_ living in the Seventh Age. Maybe we will uncover it when the Yucca Mountain nuclear waste depository finally gets built in Nevada



There is only one word to describe that. 

BBBBBOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!  

hehe


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## baragund (Aug 5, 2005)

Given the inconsistency between Letter #144 that Greenwood referenced and the account of the published Silmarillion, where "some few" fled and hid themselves, it _does_ look like Tolkien's thinking changed with time. Does anybody know the timing of Letter #144 with respect to his writing of that part of the Silmarillion? It would be rather inconvenient if Tolkien wrote the letter _before_ he wrote that account of the War of Wrath.

Still, it's more fun to think there might be one or two snoozing away beneath the earth, waiting to be awakened by some miner's drill...


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## Greenwood (Aug 5, 2005)

The letter was written in 1954 to one of his editors who had some questions about the LOTR manuscript. I don't know when The Silmarillion passage was written, but my guess would be earlier.


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## Inderjit S (Aug 5, 2005)

The material from which the Silmarillion (or the events after the Noldor reach Beleriand) is in HoME 11. "The Grey Annals" ends with the Narn i Chin Hurin, but a side-note reads (referring to a comment on "a host" of Balrogs in the Nirnaeth) "at which point my father noted a point in the typescript "There should not be supposed more than say 3 or at the most 7 ever existed." The other sources which C.T used, 'The Latter Quenta Silmarillion' and 'The Tale of Years' say nothing of Balrogs-most of the information for the War of Wrath is derived from Tolkien's earlier manuscripts-pre-dating (in some cases) LoTR-the early Silmarillion which Tolkien claims in his foreword had little chance of being Published, in which Balrogs were radically different.


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## Wraithguard (Aug 5, 2005)

I cannot even look at the word "Annal" without laughing. There are many inconsistancies that we would like to see answered and this is one of them. I would think that Tolkien called the Balrog of Moria the last in the letter to simplify the story and make it easier to understand _considering_ that he did not think the Sil would be published.


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## Arvedui (Aug 8, 2005)

Wraithguard, my guess is that the Balrogs were too powerful weapons to make it plausible that they could have been overcome if there were a lot of them.


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## Ingwë (Aug 8, 2005)

I thought that the Balrog of Moria is not the last because it is said that there are a few Balrogs after the War of Wrath but maybe this is the last.

*'The Balrogs were destroyed, save some few that fled & hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth.' *
Well, that means that there are some hidden creatures in the Middle earth. But Indy and Arvedui make me think that I was wrong...


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## baragund (Aug 8, 2005)

Ingwe, the earlier posts in this thread will show you that Tolkien's thinking about this seemed to evolved over the years. Early writings indicated there were many Balrogs during the Elder Days, even "hosts" of them. But Arvedui is right. Think of how powerful the Moria Balrog was, and now imagine a "host" of them. Hundreds or thousands even. With forces like that, Morgoth and/or Sauron could have just kicked the snot out anything the West could muster without breaking a sweat.

Curious... With a small number of Balrogs in the 3-7 range, that could draw a parallel with the 5 Istari. Just as Morgoth had his Balrogs, Manwe and company had their wizards...


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## Ingwë (Aug 8, 2005)

Baragund said:


> Tolkien's thinking about this seemed to evolved over the years


And not only about the Balrogs...  



Baragund said:


> *Curious...* With a small number of Balrogs in the 3-7 range, that could draw a parallel with the 5 Istari. Just as Morgoth had his Balrogs, Manwe and company had their wizards...


That make me think that Manwë and Varda sent 5 Istari to fight 3-7 Balrogs but we know that the Wizards were sent with other errand.


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## Inderjit S (Aug 8, 2005)

I think there were a lot more than just 5 Istari-they were a "group" of loremasters, of which 5 were sent.


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## Thorondor_ (Aug 8, 2005)

I think that more than five were sent (the Istari, UT):


> Of this Order the number is unknown; but of those that came to the North of Middle-earth, where there was most hope (because of the remnant of the Dunedain and of the Eldar that abode there), the chiefs were five


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