# Tom Bombadil



## Elwe Singollo (Mar 30, 2003)

Hope this question isn't so simple I sound stupid! What is Tom Bombadil? I have read Sil, and it makes no comment on him, and I am plagued by this question at night. I know the origin of the character Tom Bombadil, but he seems to have no background in LOTR, which is extremely odd for even the smallest of Tolkien's creations.


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## YayGollum (Mar 30, 2003)

Oh. I thought he was just supposed to be an enigma. oh well. Lots of people have lots of different opinions. I've heard that he's a Maiar type thing, a Valar type thing, that Eru god guy, or just something that was never talked about. Which makes him an enigma. sorry that this subject plagues you. *hides*


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## Elwe Singollo (Mar 31, 2003)

I can see how he is an enigma due to the lack of other references, but if so he's the only one I can think of (Goldberry not included). Obviously he is important, since Elrond and Gandalf hold him in high esteem, and since the Ring has no effect on him (which kinda eliminates the Maiar theory, doesn't it?). And he is described as the first thing on Middle Earth. I know this is difficult, but I need help (other than psychological).


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## Lantarion (Mar 31, 2003)

Welcome to the forums, Elwë! 
The question you posted is probably the most commonly debated subject among Tolkienists, followed by whether Balrogs had wings.. If you have the time and patience, please read through these (rather extensive) threads. 

What IS Tom Bombadil? 
Thoughts on Bombadil 
Tom Bombadil: A character for generations past 
Who is Tom Bombadil really after all the debate? 

Have fun.


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## YayGollum (Mar 31, 2003)

Oh. I can think of plenty of other enigmas. oh well. Sure, Yay for the other threads. Why not? Anyways, how does the fact that the Ring doesn't affect him show that he's not a Maiar type thing? oh well. Also, I don't think that many people could give you the answer you're looking for. It's a big debate. I've never run into the definite answer.


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## BlackCaptain (Mar 31, 2003)

Tolkien himself said that Tom is nothing. He's an enigma. He fits into no categories, and is meant to be that way. 

He's not Maia
He's not Vala
He's not Elf
He's not Spirit
He's not Man

HE's an Enigma.

Thats as simple as it can get. People can argue otherwise, but if you would like some proof:



> _ From Letters of Tolkien; Letter 144_
> As a story, I think it is good that there should be a lot of things unewplained (especially if an explanation actually exists); and I have perhaps from this point of view erred in tryhing to explain too much, and give too much past history. Many readers have, for instance, rather stuck at the _Council of Elrond_. And even in a mythical Age *There must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (Intentionally)*


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## BlackCaptain (Mar 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by YayGollum _
> * Anyways, how does the fact that the Ring doesn't affect him show that he's not a Maiar type thing? *



The Ring doesnt affect him, because he doesnt care. Tolkien has made this a story of Light and Dark. Good vs. Evil. If there is someone who is not on either side, and chooses not to become involved, and simply doesnt care, then the Evil won't affect him. The Ring is meant to be a temptation, and when you are finaly tempted, and cant control your urge to put it on, you become invisible. If you aren't tempted, and just put this Ring on for the fun of it (Like Tom did in his house), and not care wheather or not you will turn invisible, you wont.

Thats my two cents...


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## Ithrynluin (Mar 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MorgulKing _
> *Tolkien himself said that Tom is nothing. He's an enigma. He fits into no categories, and is meant to be that way.
> 
> He's not Maia
> ...



He is an enigma in the sense that Tolkien did not wish to deal with what Bombadil is - for whatever reason. He either left ambigous passages or the information is very scarce.

Despite that, Tom MUST be some creature, even if one of a kind. We don't have to just chalk it up to "oh, he's an enigma, let's leave it at that." People who are interested in him may discuss it to their heart's content, even if they don't reach any agreement or conclusion - which is most often the case.


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## YayGollum (Mar 31, 2003)

Yes. Thank you. There we go. An enigma does not = a race. Tom Bombadil has to be a race. What race he is is the big and huge and evil and (to me) pointless question. There's no way that I know of to find out for sure. oh well. 

Anyways, where do you come up with the idea that if you just don't care, the Ring won't affect you, scary MorgulKing person? I've never heard that. I always thought that the Ring wouldn't be able to affect him because he's something bigger and scarier and more powerful than Sauron.


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## Celebthôl (Mar 31, 2003)

maybe instead of Mother Nature, he is Father Nature


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## Elwe Singollo (Mar 31, 2003)

Thanks guys!


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## Ithrynluin (Mar 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by YayGollum _
> *
> I always thought that the Ring would be able to affect him because he's something bigger and scarier and more powerful than Sauron. *



I doubt that. Tom sure seems to know his way around his land, but that's it - beyond the borders of his lands he hasn't got that much power. And I have a hunch that Sauron is mightier than Bombadil, not just because of the vast army of minions that serve him, but as a creature/spirit.

Tom is not affected by the One Ring because he is a unique creature, he was part of Arda when it came to being with the word "Eä" uttered by Eru. That is perhaps why some matters, like the ring invisibility issue, simply pass him by.

Welcome to the forums Elwe.


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## BlackCaptain (Mar 31, 2003)

Ahh... Ive noticed something...



> I think it is good that there should be a lot of things unewplained (especially if an explanation actually exists);



From the same letter. So that might mean that Tolkien wanted us (the readers) to debate this? If I had to pick something, I would deffinately go with Maia. It just fits.


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## BlackCaptain (Mar 31, 2003)

I ditch my theory of 'It didnt affect him cuz he doesnt care'. Ive thought of something better...


He is a Maia because:

a) Doesnt dissapear when the Ring is put on
- The Ring grants power according to the stature of the bearer... Turning invisible, is a side-effect for those of lesser stature, seing as how Men, and Hobbits (those are examples of beings of lesser stature) turn invisible. If Tom were to turn invisible, wich he didnt, that would mean he's of greater stature. Being a spirit of some sort. 

b) What else could he be? 
- Man; no. Look above for reason!
Hobbit; Highly doubt it
Elf; No. Look below
Dwarf; Highly doubt it
Vala; Probly not, seing as how the Vala removed themselves from ME, and if he was Ulmo he would be more in touch with the water.

c) ''He is" ~ Goldberry
- 'Eldest, that's what I am. Mark my words, my friends: Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless--before the Dark Lord came from the Outside' 
~ Tom Bombadil

Those three points rule out Elves, men, Hobbits, and Dwarves. Maia, Vala, and 'Ea' are the only choices left, and I highly doubt Tom being a Vala, seeing as how Goldberry is obviously of the same 'race' of Tom, if tat is a fair classification, and no two Vala would both dwell in a very small forrest of ME. 
I highly doubt the Ea theory too, because if Tom was Ea itself, he would have more control than just inside the Old Forrest. And Tolkien would have reffered to him more and written more on him, because why would Tolkien leave out the Spirit of the World in his writings? Also, there are many Maia that were never written about, or had any descriptions of what they were. Tom Bombadil could be one of these many Maia.

My vote:
Maia

If Tom is some sort of classification, and i use that term loosely, he would most likely be Maia IMO. Or you can go with my Enigma idea, and have Tom just be. Just simply be there...


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## Elwe Singollo (Mar 31, 2003)

MorgulKing,

The Maia theory is the most convincing (though that may not be saying a whole lot), but about your point that Ea would have power outside the bounds of the Old Forest, remember that Bombadil set his own boundaries, they were not set for him. He stays within by choice, not because he has to.


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## Elwe Singollo (Mar 31, 2003)

I have given more thought to this topic, and read over many of the other relevant threads, and I have come to the conclusion that only Tolkien knows what the truth about Tom Bombadil is. IMO Bombadil is nothing more than an enigma placed in the greatest work of all time to torment people like me, who refuse to accept Goldberry's explanation, "He is."


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## YayGollum (Apr 1, 2003)

He is sounds a lot like I am. oh well. 

Yikes! That quote that the scary ithrynluin person tossed over is messed up. I meant to say ---> couldn't. oh well. Anyways, oh, you have a hunch, do you? That's just craziness. At least this MorgulKing person has facts.  I would think that you'd have to be stronger than the Ring to resist it's effects. Silly me.

Also, isn't that he is eldest type stuff you have in c) saying that he's Eru? 

How is it obvious that Goldberry is the same thing as Tom Bombadil? I thought that he could be Ulmo and since she's something to do with a river (I forget), she could just be a lesser water type of Maiar thingy and he could have finally settled down.


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## Lantarion (Apr 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin_
> he was part of Arda when it came to being with *the word "Eä"* uttered by Eru.


A bit off-topic, but I just realized something.. _Elä_ is the imperative form of the verb 'to live' in Finnish! 
_Elä_ = _Eä_.. Looks pretty similar to me.


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## BlackCaptain (Apr 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Elwe Singollo _
> *MorgulKing,
> 
> The Maia theory is the most convincing (though that may not be saying a whole lot), but about your point that Ea would have power outside the bounds of the Old Forest, remember that Bombadil set his own boundaries, they were not set for him. He stays within by choice, not because he has to. *



But why would the spirit of the world confine himself into a tiny forrest?





> _Originally posted by YayGollum _
> *How is it obvious that Goldberry is the same thing as Tom Bombadil? I thought that he could be Ulmo and since she's something to do with a river (I forget), she could just be a lesser water type of Maiar thingy and he could have finally settled down. *



Because since they arent the race of Men, Elves, or Dwarves, they would have to be a spirit of some kind. And if they were both Vala, they wouldn't be in Middle Earth. We can also rule out Ulmo because he is the God of Waters. Tom is the Lord of a small forrest. Sure, Tom has control over the rivers and streams in the Old Forrest, but that's it. Ulmo would have control over all waters in ME. I don't have any quotes right now, but It's been said numerous times that Tom has power only inside the Old Forrest. We can rule out Ulmo from this, and thus, rule out all Valar because they removed themselves from ME.

So weve (Ive) ruled out:
-Elf
-Man
-Dwarf
-Hobbit
-Ent (? haha)
-Eru
-Ea (Not completely yet... )
-Vala

Maia is just the best choice I think to be made


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## baragund (Apr 1, 2003)

This is one of those things that make Tolkien's works so appealing. You can interpret Tom Bombadil any number of ways that are just as plausible as another. It all depends on your personal point of view.

For a long time, whenever I would try to figure out what Tom was, I would wind up shrugging my shoulders and just enjoying his character at face value. Now that I've read some of the arguments for Maia, enigma, the earth personified, etc. etc., the answer that appeals to me most is that he is Eru himself.

True, his boundaries are the Old Forest and Barrow Downs, but I don't think there is any reason to think they could not be self-imposed limits. 

Have you ever seen the movie "Oh, God" or any of it's sequels? If you haven't, it's about God who comes to earth in the form of a cute, charming little old man played by George Burns (this is going back to the 70s-early 80s so I am dating myself here). Don't forget that God (and, I presume, Eru is supposed to be as well) is omnipotent; which means he could manifest himself as a little old man while managing the affairs of the Universe at the same time if he cares to. Looking at it this way, Tom Bombadil could be a manifestation of Eru for the purpose of seeing how things are developing in the world from the point of view of one of it's inhabitants. He is a spectator, seeing how his plan for the world is playing out. Don't forget, in The Music of the Ainur of the Ainulindale, Tolkien describes a music 

"...greater still shall be made before Iluvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Iluvatar after the end of days. Then the themes of Iluvatar shall be played aright, and take Being in the moment of their utterance, for all shall then understand fully his intent in their part and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Iluvatar shall give to their thoughts the secret fire, being well pleased."

This tells me that all this stuff about rings and Dark Lords an' stuff is just window dressing and it's a part of Eru's bigger plan. He just wanted a ring-side seat to see it play out.


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## YayGollum (Apr 1, 2003)

Thank you. That makes all kinds of sense to me. Tom Bombadil could superly possibly be Eru. Also, I still don't see why he couldn't be Ulmo. just because Ulmo was the god of water doesn't mean that he can't hang out in a forest. He can take any form he wants. He can walk around in the Old Forest if he feels like it. No big deal.


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by YayGollum _
> *Thank you. That makes all kinds of sense to me. Tom Bombadil could superly possibly be Eru. Also, I still don't see why he couldn't be Ulmo. just because Ulmo was the god of water doesn't mean that he can't hang out in a forest. He can take any form he wants. He can walk around in the Old Forest if he feels like it. No big deal. *



Taking into consideration the shape-shifting abilities of the Ainur, it would make much more sense if he was Yavanna. Does it really matter that she is female and he a male? No.

Or even Oromë. But not Ulmo. Not really.


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## YayGollum (Apr 2, 2003)

Ack! What's the problem with Ulmo? Sure, Tom Bombadil doesn't act much like him, but does he act anything like any of the other Valar? I don't think so. Yay for Eru? Anyways, I was just thinking that he could be Ulmo because of Goldberry and the crazy singing and the fact that he liked Middle Earth more than any of the other Valar. *hides*


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## BlackCaptain (Apr 2, 2003)

Not Ulmo because it is said in the books alot of times that Tom has no powers outside his forrest. Ulmo has control over all the waters of ME and Aman.


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## YayGollum (Apr 2, 2003)

I hate that winking smilie thing. oh well. I must have missed that quote. Where is it hidden? oh well. If that craziness is true, then Tom Bombadil must be something totally different and never talked about anywhere else because all of the Maiar/Valar/Eru type things that I'm pretty sure Tom Bombadil must be have no crazy little limitations like that.


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## baragund (Apr 2, 2003)

I'm with YayGollum on how to interpret Tom's "limits". Tom did not go outside the Old Forest or the Barrow Downs simply because he didn't feel like it. In "Fog on the Barrow Downs" of FOTR, Tom's parting song to the hobbits goes like

"Tom's country ends here: he *will* not pass the borders. Tom has his house to mind, and Goldberry is waiting!"

Because the ring had no effect on Tom, and because he so effortlessly deals with Old Man Willow and the barrow wights, I like to think that he could have strolled into Mordor, picked the lock to the front gate of Barad-dur sashayed up the stairs to the top of the tower, and given Sauron an atomic wedgie without breaking a sweat if he felt like it.


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## BlackCaptain (Apr 3, 2003)

No... Gandalf says that he is the strongest force they will encounter save they come to the foot of the Dark Tower. That means

1. Sauron
2. Gandalf
3. Saruman
4. ... Probly Radagast

Tom Bombadil is not that strong... His greatest strength is the resiliance to the Ring, and he would have gone on the quest but he doesnt care about that 'stuff' ...


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## YayGollum (Apr 3, 2003)

Ummm...am I just a really stupid person for not being able to understand what the list is supposed to be talking about? I thought at first that you were listing things that Tom Bombadil might be. Makes no sense to me. oh well. Anyways, if the guy could way too superly easily resist the One Ring when Gandalf and Saruman couldn't, I'd say that he'd have to be something bigger and scarier.


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## BlackCaptain (Apr 3, 2003)

Gandalf did. Perhaps Tom Bombadil is one awesome force to reckon with... But my point was he couldnt just go and kick saurons behind like jimzeller said.


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## YayGollum (Apr 3, 2003)

Okay, thanks for explaining that list.  I wondered what Radagast had to do with anything. Anyways, since when can the evil torturer Gandalf resist the One Ring? I must have missed that part. oh well.


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## BlackCaptain (Apr 3, 2003)

The whole begining. He could have taken the Ring from Bilbo or told Frodo to give it to him (and frodo would have given it to him). But he knew it was the best for everyone, and even all of ME to not take it.


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## faila (Apr 3, 2003)

this is a greatly debateable point and I think tolkien himself knew, I think he planned on people argueing about or debating it. I personally think that he eru or illuvator. Why? Because he fits nothing else. People will most likely bring up points about why hes not illuvator, but illuvator was pretty much an all powerful being, who can understand him? I think that was him. He didnt own any one, yet he could controll.


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## YayGollum (Apr 3, 2003)

Thank you. Makes all kinds of sense to me. Anyways, Ick. Sure, the evil torturer Gandalf resisted the One Ring those few times, but it is superly obvious that Tom Bombadil was a little bit more resistant. Or am I just crazy? Of course the evil torturer Gandalf would have more of a resistance that the average joe, but we still know that it would have gotten to him eventually.


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## BlackCaptain (Apr 4, 2003)

Ive thought of the explanation, that there are only two real answers:


-Tom is just Tom. Not Man, Elf, Dwarf, Ainu, Ea, Eru, Hobbit, or anything else. Just Tom. 'He is'.
-Tom is what you think he is. I for one strongly believe he is a Maia, but I can't prove that, and no one can prove anything else. I can however give strong ideas to back my idea up, but I can't 100% prove anything.

No one will ever realy know the answer.


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## YayGollum (Apr 4, 2003)

'He is' still reminds me of 'I am.' oh well. Sure, that last explanation makes all kinds of sense, but it's still fun to argue about it since most people usually have good proof to back their ideas up.


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## BlackCaptain (Apr 4, 2003)

I agree... Tom Bombadil is one of my favorite topics to discuss. It's one thing that I love debating about, because it's one of few things i know a decent amount about. 

I strongly believe he's a Maia if he is anything at all. But remember, I can't prove it!


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## Iluisa Olórin (Apr 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by YayGollum_
> *Tom Bombadil has to be a race.*



I absolutely disagree. Tom does not have to be classifiable as any race, because he is a fictitious character.

If he must be something, Gene Hargrove's assertion that he is Aulë sits most comfortably with me.


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## BlackCaptain (Apr 4, 2003)

It isnt very convincing to me... Tolkien wouldn't make Goldberry the daughter of the River, if she was Yavana. It just doesnt make much sense...


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## Iluisa Olórin (Apr 4, 2003)

The claim that Goldberry is the Riverwoman's daughter needn't be taken literally.


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## BlackCaptain (Apr 4, 2003)

That's what he says, but Tolkien wouldn't mistake a suposed Vala's parents up. If he intended Goldberry to be Yavvana, he would never have given her the title of the 'Daughter of the River' in the first place.


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## YayGollum (Apr 4, 2003)

Ack! I know that Tom Bombadil doesn't have to be a race. LOTR isn't real. None of the characters need to be classified as anything. But isn't this thread asking what we think he is? I thought so. Silly me. If we are trying to say what we think he is, we gots to classify him somehow. If you read the thread, you'll notice that lots of people showed up and tossed evidence for why he could be certain things. oh well. Maybe not. Anyways, no, I don't like to think that Tom Bombadil could be Aule. Aule's too cool.


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## Iluisa Olórin (Apr 4, 2003)

YayGollum - You contradicted yourself 

Yes, but you went beyond suggesting what he might be by asserting that he "has to be a race."

I meant "Tom does not have to be classifiable as any race, because he is a fictitious character" within the scope of TLotR.

BlackCaptain - What Hargrove says about the claim is a fact: the term "daughter" doesn't necessarily mean that she had parents; physically, the Valar are neither male nor female.


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## YayGollum (Apr 4, 2003)

When did I contradict myself? oh well. I don't see was going beyond suggesting when I said that he has to be a race. This thread is about saying what you think he is. How can you say what you think he is without giving him a race? The book describes him well enough. This guy's just wondering what he's supposed to be. Sure, you could run around saying that you shouldn't worry about it because LOTR isn't real and what he is shouldn't matter, but that's not even trying to answer the question. oh well.


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## Iluisa Olórin (Apr 4, 2003)

Again, I intended my comment within the scope of TLotR.

He doesn't need to be classified in order to answer the question.


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## YayGollum (Apr 5, 2003)

Okay, nevermind about answering my question, then. oh well. Anyways, how else can you answer the question? You said that you liked the idea of him being Aule. Sounds like you think he's a Valar. You classified him. Too late.


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## Iluisa Olórin (Apr 5, 2003)

I put that up as a suggestion; I didn't classify him as having to be of a race. He is most certainly an enigma: and therein lies the answer to your question.


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## Elwe Singollo (Apr 5, 2003)

I don't know how many of you have read "Lost Tales," but in the chapter "The Coming of the Valar" (page65 in my copy) it talks about the coming of Aule and Yavanna. 

"About them fared a great host who are the sprites of trees and woods, of dale and forest and mountain-side, or those that sing amid the grass at morning and chant among the standing corn at eve. These are the Nermir and the Tavari, Nandini and Orossi, brownies, fays, pixies, leprawns, and what else they are not called, for their number is very great: yet must not be confused with the Eldar, for they were born before the world, and are older than its oldest, and are not of it, but laugh at it much, for had they not somewhat to do with its making, so that it is for the most part a play for them."

I just came across this, and it seems to be the closest description of Tom Bombadil's character in Tolkien's writings. A lot of discussion has gone into whether Bombadil and Goldberry could be Aule and Yavanna, could it be that they are part of the host of Aule and Yavanna instead?


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## Elwe Singollo (Apr 5, 2003)

I especially think the "older than its oldest" part is intriguing, since it echoes Bombadil and Gandalf from Fellowship. I agree that none of this can be proven, but this seems to be the best thing I have found, and until someone changes my mind I think I'll go with this. And when I started this thread I had not come across this description, and I was hoping there was an answer set in stone, I didnt realize I would be opening such a can of worms (guess I should have read soem of the other threads before I asked).


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 5, 2003)

> These are the Nermir and the Tavari, Nandini and Orossi, brownies, fays, pixies, leprawns, and what else they are not called, for their number is very great:



I like the idea of Tom and Goldberry being one of these.


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## YayGollum (Apr 5, 2003)

Sure, why not? But that's just creepy to think that Aule could be Tom Bombadil. oh well. Wish I had some of those other crazy bookses you people are talking about.


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## BlackCaptain (Apr 6, 2003)

Yavvana - Pastures, plants, trees, growing things

Goldberry - Rivers, Water

I don't see the simalarities.


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## YayGollum (Apr 6, 2003)

You don't? Water helps make things grow. You didn't know that? Coming to Middle Earth in the form of some crazy water lady would be fun for her, I would think. oh well. I don't like the idea anyways.


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## BlackCaptain (Apr 6, 2003)

Hahaha...

You make good points!


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 6, 2003)

Keep in mind that the forms that the Ainur took were as clothes are to us. So if you are speculating that Tom and Goldberry could be Valar, than they could just as well be any of the Valar.
Tom's character/abilities most resemble Yavanna, Oromë or Tulkas. Goldberry is most like Uinen IMHO.



> You don't? Water helps make things grow. You didn't know that? Coming to Middle Earth in the form of some crazy water lady would be fun for her, I would think. oh well. I don't like the idea anyways.



But Yay, that connection is a little bit obscure. We could just as well liken Goldberry to Varda then, since "light makes things grow" as well.


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## YayGollum (Apr 6, 2003)

Oh, I thought that Varda was mostly into stars. oh well. I'd go for that crazy lady that's in charge of the sun if you're talking about light helping plants.  Anyways, why do you think the Valar have to wear clothes that remind people of them? I never saw a rule that said that.


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## Iluisa Olórin (Apr 6, 2003)

ithrynluin: You do not consider Aulë


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## jallan (Apr 6, 2003)

From _Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien_, letter 144:


> And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally).


Aulë who teaches the Elves smithcraft and has little concern with living things, unlike Yavanna, is not much like Tom Bombadil.

Now if Tom appeared as a smith, or was even shown to have an anvil somwhere around his place ....

But since Tolkien apparently preferred not to classify Tom, not to fit him in precisely into his legendarium, any theory by anyone else is hard to take seriously.

Only Yavanna and Oromë, not Aulë, are said to be unwilling to utterly forsake Middle-earth, while Tom claims to have dwelt there since before the coming of Melkor, before the first raindrop, much less the first tree.

Neither Yavanna or Oromë dwelt continually in Middle-earth. At the time when Tolkien was writing _The Lord of the Rings_ Oromë was still held to be a son of Yavanna born before the coming into Eä, but his father was not Aulë.

As to Tom being a Maia (which would include all the leprawns etc. mentioned by Elwe Singollo, it is an argument from silence to assume that all spirits found with Eä were Ainur from without. There _may_ also have been spirits created alone with Eä, always part of it.

He might be the first spirit of some kind or other to permanent take incarnate form within Arda, which would explain why is called “Oldest”.

Tolkien may have felt that Tom being an enigma was more effective aesthetically than unncessarily inventing a particular place and history for him (unless suddenly inspiration struck him).

As far as we know, it didn’t.

Note that River-woman, Goldberry’t mother, appears faintly as a character in the poem “The Adventures of Tom Bombadil”.

Who would River-woman be, if one wants to make Goldberry one of the Valar?


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## YayGollum (Apr 6, 2003)

Sounds like you're for the Maiar idea. oh well. Maybe so. I don't know. It's cool to see the different ideas. I wonder if the person that asked the question is still paying attention.  Anyways, who said that Goldberry was a Valar? oh well.


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by lhutton _
> *ithrynluin: You do not consider Aulë  *



Like jallan said already, Aulë is nothing like Tom. Aulë's delight is in forging, the crafting of weapons and gems. He is not very in sync with nature, and neither are his creations, the Dwarves.
Tom, on the other hand, cares for the living things and has control over them (he deals with Old Man Willow, and even the Barrow-downs wight easily). He shows absolutely no interest in the Ring, which is a product of supreme craftsmanship. No, Tom is definitely not Aulë.



> _Originally posted by YayGollum _
> *Oh, I thought that Varda was mostly into stars. oh well. I'd go for that crazy lady that's in charge of the sun if you're talking about light helping plants.  Anyways, why do you think the Valar have to wear clothes that remind people of them? I never saw a rule that said that. *



For Goldberry to be Arien, the latter would have to abandon "wielding" the sun which is sort of her job.
What I meant with the Valar's raiment being as clothes are to us, 
is basically that they can take upon themselves any form they like. Any of the Valar, male or female, could take the form of Bombadil if they wished to do so. Mostly they took up the forms of things that resemble their characters the most, e.g. Yavanna in the form of a great tree.


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## YayGollum (Apr 6, 2003)

Even though I don't think that Tom Bombadil is Aule, the reasons you tossed around for why he couldn't be don't make much sense. Aule isn't just into forging and gems and Dwarf-type things. He was the guy that made the earth. That doesn't mean just mountains. Maybe he had all kinds of fun with designing the land that the Old Forest sits on.  Anyways, I'm pretty sure that any Valar could mess with Old Man Willow. just because they have special interests and talents doesn't mean that they all can't have the same powers over lesser type things.

Anyways, yes, I know that that sun lady most likely did not abandon her post. I was just pointing out who makes plants grow.  Also, yes, I knew what you meant by the Valar type of clothes. Ack! I just don't see any rule that says Valar can only put on clothes that make them look the way we think they should. You just said that any of them could have been Tom Bombadil. No big deal.


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## BlackCaptain (Apr 6, 2003)

I still don't see how we can be debating wether Tom is a Vala. The Valar removed themselves from ME, and the only Vala that would want anything to do with ME would be Ulmo, and he has no spouse.


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## YayGollum (Apr 6, 2003)

Where does it say that there is no possible way for one of those Valar thingys to come back and do whatever it wants? Also, where does it say that Ulmo never gets to find some lady to hang out with?


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## baragund (Apr 7, 2003)

Elwe's description of the faeries, leprauns, etc. etc. that are older than the earth is a plausible explanation of what Tom could be. The only thing about that idea that doesn't quite satisfy is how can these subordinate beings have such seemingly effortless mastery of living things (Old Man Willow), spirits (the Barrow Wights) and a complete disregard of the greatest artifact that had ever been created in Middle Earth (the One Ring)? Tom not only didn't care about the ring, to me he was completely beyond the Ring's sphere of influence. That is the reason why I think Tom is a manifestation of something REALLY powerful, Valar-level at least. Scanning through the earlier posts in this thread, it seems that Tom has characteristics of several Vala (Ulmo, Aule, Yavanna, Tulkas even). Why not reconcile all of that with the idea that Tom is the Big Cheese (Eru) himself? 

Goldberry and River-Woman is a different matter. Personally, I prefer my Vala to stay within their gender. So for me, the best fit for River-Woman would be Yavanna with the connection that the waters are life-giving, the place of the origins of life. Goldberry, being a "daughter" of Yavanna under this approach would simply be one of Yavanna's Maia.

Tom is deferential to Goldberry in LOTR not because she is an equal, but she is a beloved subordinate or "child" if you will. If any of you are parents, you will know that you set your schedules, activities, careers even based on the needs of your children.


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## Iluisa Olórin (Apr 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jimzeller_
> 
> Personally, I prefer my Vala to stay within their gender.



"The Valar arrayed themselves in the form and temper some as of male and some as of female [although, physically, they were neither]."

The claim that Goldberry is the Riverwoman's daughter needn't be taken literally. The term "daughter" doesn't necessarily mean that she had parents; physically, the Valar are neither male nor female.



> _Originally posted by BlackCaptain_
> 
> The Valar removed themselves from ME, and the only Vala that would want anything to do with ME would be Ulmo, and he has no spouse.



There is nothing to stop Yavanna from visiting and Aulë from being there for the purpose of studying Hobbits.



> _Originally posted by ithrynluin_
> 
> He is not very in sync with nature, and neither are his creations, the Dwarves... He shows absolutely no interest in the Ring, which is a product of supreme craftsmanship. No, Tom is definitely not Aulë.



These are weak arguments on which to discard the plausibility of Aulë being Tom and I will quote from Gene Hargrove's essay to rebut them.

"Aulë was the maker of all the substances of the earth: minerals, gems, and metals... As the Maker he developed and taught all arts, crafts, and skills. Of all the Valar, he had the greatest interest in the Children of Iluvatar... ...Aulë delighted in making, not possessing, and "he did not envy the works of others, but sought and gave counsel."

"Like Aulë, Tom is not possessive. Although his power to dominate and control is always stressed - he is the master - he does not interfere with other beings except when they directly interfere with him. Although he has the power to possess whatever he may desire, he does not chose to possess or own the forest. As Goldberry explains, the animals, plants, and natural objects of the forest are all allowed to belong to themselves. This distain for ownership or possession is the reason why Tom is able to handle the ring without fear.

"We should not forget that of all the Valar Aulë was the one most eager to see the Children of Iluvatar. He is also the only one to make sentient, rational beings of his own. Given his interest in such creatures, it is not unreasonable to assume that, like Gandalf, he found Hobbits fascinating. As Hobbit songs about Tom Bombadil suggest, moreover, he had plenty of contact with Hobbits in Buckland and the Marish, no doubt allowing ample opportunity for Hobbit study.

"As Tolkien explained to his proofreader, Tom's role was to show that there were things beyond and unconcerned with domination and control. On the surface, this view of Tom seems to make him unrelated to all other things and events in Middle-earth - indeed, anomalous. As Aulë, however, Tom is not beyond and unconcerned anomalously, but rather is located at the core of morality as it existed in Middle-earth, as the ultimate exemplification of the proper moral stance toward power, pride, and possession."


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## YayGollum (Apr 7, 2003)

Well, that was convincing.  But no. I like Aule too much to think that he could be Tom Bombadil. Sure, Aule may just have some crazy and superly whimsical side that noone really knows about, but I would be afraid of that. oh well. Too many arguements. Yay for Eru! He can be Tom Bombadil and Goldberry if he feels like it, or she could just be some lesser Maiar type that we've never heard about.


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 7, 2003)

> These are weak arguments on which to discard the plausibility of Aulë being Tom and I will quote from Gene Hargrove's essay to rebut them.



Like Mr. Hargrove here, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I do not think that Tom is a Vala at all, I only reminded many people who were so intent on him being Aulë, that the similarities were not so striking after all.



> "Of all the Valar, he had the greatest interest in the Children of Iluvatar... "



He had a relatively *great* interest in the Children, in the sense that he wanted to teach them. So did Oromë who was eager for them to awake and looked for them and guided them and taught them a language. In fact, Tom resembles Oromë much more than Aulë. Oromë delights in running through the wild lands, hunting and taming fell beasts. Tom is also constantly on the move in his lands, not hunting, but definitely taming the likes of Old Man Willow and the Barrow wight. Like Oromë, he also has a horse, though we never see him ride it.
Aulë is always busy in his "workshop" - we don't see Tom busying himself with crafting, rather running to and fro in his little land, being master of all though not possessing anything.



> ...Aulë delighted in making, not possessing, and "he did not envy the works of others, but sought and gave counsel.



So tell me which Vala DID delight in possessing then? Which Vala DID envy the works of others? None of them. This statement holds absolutely no water in proving that Aulë could be Tom. It is true of all the Valar.



> "Like Aulë, Tom is not possessive. Although his power to dominate and control is always stressed - he is the master - he does not interfere with other beings except when they directly interfere with him. Although he has the power to possess whatever he may desire, he does not chose to possess or own the forest. As Goldberry explains, the animals, plants, and natural objects of the forest are all allowed to belong to themselves. This distain for ownership or possession is the reason why Tom is able to handle the ring without fear.



Or rather "Like any Vala, Tom is not possessive." This looks to me like it was written to suit one man's flight of fancy. There is nothing in this passage that would provide any real textual evidence. Rather a bunch of general statements and Tom's characteristics applied to Aulë to make them look more alike.



> "We should not forget that of all the Valar Aulë was the one most eager to see the Children of Iluvatar. He is also the only one to make sentient, rational beings of his own. Given his interest in such creatures, it is not unreasonable to assume that, like Gandalf, he found Hobbits fascinating. As Hobbit songs about Tom Bombadil suggest, moreover, he had plenty of contact with Hobbits in Buckland and the Marish, no doubt allowing ample opportunity for Hobbit study.



I would not say *see*, rather *teach*. Like I said, Oromë was the one eager to see them. The connection of Aulë (Tom) with the Hobbits is a little out there. Why would Aulë be that interested in Hobbits? Don't make the mistake of assuming that Aulë is interested in all the creatures of the world. He made the dwarves, who were like him, and delighted in the same things like himself - crafting, shaping, mining. Of the Elves, he befriended the Noldor, the Elves who were gifted in the very field of knowledge that was Aulë's specialty. We don't hear of any friendship of his with the Vanyar or the Teleri. Why would the Great Smith be interested in simple farmers such as hobbits?

There are so many similarities between many of the Valar and Tom. But he doesn't seem to fit any of them fully. He most resembles Oromë and he is very little like Aulë IMHO. I stand by what I said.


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## Lantarion (Apr 7, 2003)

Excellent counter-arguments!
Just one minor note, of which I am sure you are aware yourself:


> _Originally posted by ithrynluin_
> So tell me which Vala DID delight in possessing then? Which Vala DID envy the works of others?


Melkor. 
But as he is not actually even thought of as one of the Valar after he goes mad I suppose you are right.


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## jallan (Apr 7, 2003)

Gene Hargrove’s essay hasn’t convinced many.

Consider the statement:


> On the surface, this view of Tom seems to make him unrelated to all other things and events in Middle-earth - indeed, anomalous. As Aulë, however, Tom is not beyond and unconcerned anomalously, but rather is located at the core of morality as it existed in Middle-earth, as the ultimate exemplification of the proper moral stance toward power, pride, and possession.


The second sentence is almost unintelligible and contradicts Tolkien’s indications that Bombadil’s morality of pacifism and minimal interference may be a proper moral stance, but it is not the only proper moral stance.

Fluellenism alone fails.

Why is it so impossible to listen to Tolkien’s own explanation? Tom Bombadil is an engima.

Jimzeller posted:


> That is the reason why I think Tom is a manifestation of something REALLY powerful, Valar-level at least. Scanning through the earlier posts in this thread, it seems that Tom has characteristics of several Vala (Ulmo, Aule, Yavanna, Tulkas even). Why not reconcile all of that with the idea that Tom is the Big Cheese (Eru) himself?


From _Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien_, letter 144:


> Tom Bombadil is not an important person&#160–&#8211 to the narrative. I suppose he has some importance as a ‘comment’. I mean, I do not really write like that: he is just an invention (who first appeared in the Oxford Magazine about 1933), and he represents something that I feel important, though I would not be prepared to analyze the feeling precisely. I would not, however, have left him in, if he did not have some kind of function. I might put it this way. The story is cast in terms of a good side, and a bad side, beauty against ruthless ugliness, tyranny against kingship, moderated freedom with consent against compulsion that has long lost any object save mere power, and so on; but both sides in some degree, conservative or destructive, want a measure of control. But if you have, as it were taken ‘a vow of poverty’, renounced control, and take your delight in things for themselves without reference to yourself, watching, observing, and to some extent knowing, then the question of the rights and wrongs of power and control might become utterly meaningless to you, and the means of power quite valueless. It is a natural pacifist view, which always arises in the mind when there is a war. But the view of Rivendell seems to be that it is an excellent thing to have represented, but that there are in fact things with which it cannot cope; and upon which its existence nonetheless depends. Ultimately only the victory of the West will allow Bombadil to continue, or even to survive. Nothing would be left for him in the world of Sauron.


This largely explains Tom&#8217s being immune to the Ring, as it is also explained by Gandalf in the chapter “The Council of Elrond”. Remember too, Dwarves were also mostly unaffected by the Great Rings, not dominated by them and not subject to fading or invisibility. There is nothing in Tolkien to indicate great power alone enabled one to escape from the lure and domination of a Ring. Gandalf an incarnate Maia was probably more subject to the power of the Ring than Frodo, a Hobbit who had never sought power.

Tom Bombail is largely free from its influence because the Ring has nothing to grasp in him, not because of Tom’s power.

A certain Peter Hastings wrote to Tolkien suggesting that Tom Bombadil was God. Tolkien replied in letter 153:


> As for Tom Bombadil, I really do think you are being too serious, besides missing the point. (Again the words used are by Goldberry and Tom not me as a commentator). You rather remind me of a Protestant relation who to me objected to the (modern) Catholic habit of calling priests Father, because the name father belonged only to the First Person, citing last Sunday’s Epistle&#160&#8211 inappositely since that says _ex quo_. Lots of other characters are called Master; and if ‘in time’ Tom was primeval he was Eldest in Time. But Goldberry and Tom are referring to the mystery of _names_. See and ponder Tom’s words in Vol. I p. 142.²
> 
> You may be able to conceive of your unique relation to the Creator without a name&#160&#8211 can you: for in such a relation pronouns become proper nouns? But as soon as you are in a world of other finites with a similar, if each unique and different, relation to Prime Being, who are you? Frodo has asked not ‘what is Tom Bombadil’ but ‘Who is he’. We and he no doubt often laxly confuse the questions. Goldberry gives what I think is the correct answer. We need not go into the sublimities of ‘I am that am’&#160&#8211 which is quite different from _he is_.* She adds as a concession a statement of pan of the ‘what’. He is _master_ in a peculiar way: he has no fear, and no desire of possession or domination at all. He merely knows and understands about such things as concern him in his natural little realm. He hardly even judges, and as far as can be seen makes no effort to reform or remove even the Willow.
> 
> ...


So Bombadil is certainly not Eru. This discussion indicates quite well what Bombadil did mean to Tolkien, and it was not craftsmanship and the stone of the earth and making things.

Ihutton posted:


> "The Valar arrayed themselves in the form and temper some as of male and some as of female [although, physically, they were neither]."


From the “Ainulindalë”:


> But when they desire to clothe themselves the Valar take upon them forms some as of male and some as of female; for that difference of temper they had even from their beginning, and it is but boded forth in the choice of each, not made by the choide, even as with us male and female may be shown by the raiment but is not made thereby.


Tolkien’s Valar had gender even when pure spirit. At the time he wrote _The Lord of the Rings_ they were still thought able to have offspring, some of these offspring born before the descent into Eä, including Oromë who was the son of Yavanna, but not by Aulë.


> The claim that Goldberry is the Riverwoman’s daughter needn’t be taken literally.


She is a real person in the poem “The Adventures of Tom Bombadil”. 

Of course one might claim that this is only a piece of Hobbit-lore and perhaps not intended to be accurate.

But in the light of Tolkien’s statements about Bombadil, why suspect that Tolkien was secretly identifying Tom and Goldberry with other persons?

Let them be what Tolkien protrays them as, and excatly that. Anything further is idiosyncratic fan fiction.

Seemingly Tolkien was not concerned with giving them a particular origin, hence they have none that can be ascertained.


> There is nothing to stop Yavanna from visiting and Aulë from being there for the purpose of studying Hobbits.


There is nothing to stop Bombail and Goldberry being aliens for another planet if you are going to invent a story and ignore Tolkien’s own words whenever they conflict with the invention.


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## BlackCaptain (Apr 7, 2003)

I think, now that I have understood more about Tom not wanting the Ring, and not being affected by it at all, he is just Tom. He isn't a Maia, because even Gandalf, a great maia, was even tempted by the Ring, and Tom couldnt care less about it, Tom is something else in my eyes. I don't see how he could be a Vala, Eru, or Maia any longer. And if he was indeed Eä, he would have more power outside his own forrest, which he doesnt.

I think Goldberry put it best:

'He is.'

Is classification really nescesary? We might want to think it is, but I don't. Tom is simply Tom. He is.


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## BlackCaptain (Apr 7, 2003)

And Jallan, I agree with you completely.


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## Iluisa Olórin (Apr 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jallan_
> 
> Tolkien’s Valar had gender even when pure spirit. At the time he wrote The Lord of the Rings they were still thought able to have offspring, some of these offspring born before the descent into Eä, including Oromë who was the son of Yavanna, but not by Aulë.



As I wrote, that they had physical gender isn't inferred by the passage you cited.



> But in the light of Tolkien’s statements about Bombadil, why suspect that Tolkien was secretly identifying Tom and Goldberry with other persons?



Which other persons? I think you misconstrued what I wrote.



> There is nothing to stop Bombail and Goldberry being aliens for another planet if you are going to invent a story and ignore Tolkien’s own words whenever they conflict with the invention.



What story did you think I invented? You started off well, but went off on your own tangent.


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## YayGollum (Apr 7, 2003)

Yikes! So it looks like we're all agreeing that Tom Bombadil was just something totally different that was never talked about?


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## BlackCaptain (Apr 7, 2003)

Right.

Tolkien never classified him, and he did that on purpose. Mabey he did that so we could all have debates like this. Mabey he did it because he just wanted Tom to be Tom. He is. Thats all Tolkien may have wanted him to be. I like this idea...


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## jallan (Apr 7, 2003)

Ihutton posted:


> As I wrote, that they had physical gender isn't inferred by the passage you cited.


The passage states that Valar have gender even as spirits and the bodies in which they clothe themselves match that gender.

When clothed in _fanyar_ they certainly have physical gender.

C.S. Lewis talks about this kind of thing in _Perlandra_, attributing gender but not sexuality to the spirits of Oyarsa of Malacandra and the Oyarsa of Perelandra, which may suggest borrowing from Lewis to Tolkien or from Tolkien to Lewis or a both from another Inkling ...


> Which other persons? I think you misconstrued what I wrote?


Aulë and Yavanna are the other persons. Were you not supporting the plausibility of identifying them with Tom Bombadil and Goldberry?


> What story did you think I invented? You started off well, but went off on your own tangent.


I was referring to Gene Hargrove’s identification of Bombadil with Aulë; and Goldberry with Yavanna which seems to me groundless, therefore an invention. Phrases like Gene Hargrove’s “It is not unreasonable to assume ....” in any writing set off warning indications that unfounded speculation will follow.

There is nothing wrong with unfounded speculation in fictional development of another work or history, etc., or in scholarship when presented fairly as an unsupported but perhaps interesting hypothesis, but only one of many others that might be invented, none of which should be assumed outside of its hypothesis.

I might hypothesize that Tom was the first incarnate _fëa_ in Middle-earth, created by Eru, father of children upon whom sleep was cast and who awakened much later as Elves and Men.

But what of Golberry? In the poem “The Adventures of Tom Bombadil” her marriage to Tom is dated after Tom has an encounter with a Barrow-wight, and the Barrow-wights did not come into existance until sometime after 1409.

Well, it is not “unreasonable” to assume that there might have been at least one earlier Barrow-wight.

It would also be not unreasonable to assume that this poem, made up of Hobbit tradition is not chronologically accurate.

It would also be not unreasonable to assume that Tom Bombadil earlier had another wife.

But all these assumptions are unreasonable for any indication of any plausibility of my hypothesis.

It might make interesting fan fiction, as would identifying Bombadil and Aulë.


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## baragund (Apr 7, 2003)

Jallan, I'm not about to argue with JRRT! From what you laid out above, it sounds like I was closer to the mark at the beginning... just enjoy Tom at face value and don't try to read too much into him.


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## EL GALLO (Apr 16, 2003)

He could be an Ainu who isn't listed as a Maia or a Vala.


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## Lantarion (Apr 16, 2003)

he could; but if he says he was the First (which probably means 
'the first in Arda') he would have had to descend into Arda before Melkor.. And such an important issue as the first incarnation of Eru (i.e. living) is not something I think Tolkien would have overlooked!
But, like jimzeller said, the Prof. put it best; and it's his book, so I don't think it would be very scholarly to argue against his word. I think you should look for closure in the letter last posted by Jallan.


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## BlackCaptain (Apr 16, 2003)

Listed? Not the right term, but I see what your getting at.

Thats what I originaly thought, but even the greatest Maia have some sort of temptation for the Ring, and Tom showed none. Also, Tolkien made it clear that he didn't want to classify Tom, so Tom has no classification, unless one would give him one. Even then one could proove nothing for sure, and would just have a strong belief; nothing more. I for one just think that Tom is Tom. Not Man, Elf, Hobbit, Ainu, Ea, Eru; just Tom. 

'He is'
~Goldberry

If one would like to believe otherwise, wich I once did, they couldn't prove it. But I think since Tolkien made it clear that he didn't want to classify Tom, it would be in ones best interest to leave him unclassified...


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## jallan (Apr 18, 2003)

Blackcaptain posted:


> Thats what I originaly thought, but even the greatest Maia have some sort of temptation for the Ring, and Tom showed none.


Nothing indicates that all the greatest Maiar would have been tempted by the Ring. 

We only know that Gandalf and Saruman were tempted, and Gandalf explains why. Gandalf also explains why Tom is free from temptation, because he is psychologically immune to the particular kind of temptation that the Ring exerts. Gandalf suspects that Tom Bombadil does not approve of Gandalf’s busybody activities and interference in the world.

Naked power is not the issue.

There may be many others also immune to it. Would Estë, the Vala of “rest”, for example, be tempted by the Ring? We just don’t know.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Aug 30, 2012)

9 Year old thread resurrected from the archives because this is one of my favorite topics and is a wealth of information on the subject. Just wanted to get some more current members' thoughts on Tom Bombadil, though your views may already be expressed in past pages of the TTF ancients. :*D

Also, the good Lantarion above posted some other threads with more information:



Lantarion said:


> Welcome to the forums, Elwë!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And I like this one too: [Debate] Was Goldberry a Maia?


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## OfRhosgobel (Nov 10, 2012)

Elwe Singollo said:


> I can see how he is an enigma due to the lack of other references, but if so he's the only one I can think of (Goldberry not included). Obviously he is important, since Elrond and Gandalf hold him in high esteem, and since the Ring has no effect on him (which kinda eliminates the Maiar theory, doesn't it?). And he is described as the first thing on Middle Earth. I know this is difficult, but I need help (other than psychological).



Where is he described as the first thing on Middle-Earth? I've never read that?


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## Erestor Arcamen (Nov 11, 2012)

OfRhosgobel said:


> Where is he described as the first thing on Middle-Earth? I've never read that?



I think this quote is where we get the idea that he's the oldest thing on earth from:



> "Eldest, that's what I am...Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn...He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside."



He also calls himself the eldest and Gandalf refers to him as eldest too:



> Gandalf calls Tom Bombadil the eldest being in existence; this is also evident by his Sindarin name _Larwain Ben-adar (Old-young and Fatherle_. Dwarves called him _Forn_, Men _Orald _(These names apparently mean "Eldest.)​."
> http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Tom_Bombadil


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## Eledhwen (Nov 16, 2012)

There is a poll in the Halls of Fire that contains a post by Talierin which I would recommend to anyone who seriously wishes to consider who or what Tom Bombadil is. First, though, you might want to furnish yourself with a plate of sandwiches and a cup of tea - it's spread over three posts.


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## Starbrow (May 10, 2014)

I just finished reading the part with Tom Bombadil. I noticed that he works his magic (or whatever you would call it) through the use of songs. For example, he defeats Old Man Willow and the barrowwight through songs. And he taught the hobbits a song to summon him. I don't recall anybody else using music to work their magic. The elves' and wizards' use of magic seems to be more organic and not through the use of spells or incantations. Why do you think Bombadil works through music to do what he does?


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## Gothmog (May 10, 2014)

Although it is not seen much in LotR, the use of song for the working of "magic" is part of Tolkien's legendarium. It starts being used right at the beginning with the Music of the Ainur where the history and fate of Arda is set. You can find at various points during the early ages where song is used such as Luthien singing songs of power to grow her hair and imbue it with sleep. Also the battle between Sauron and Finrod Felagund where they fought with Songs of Power. Some of the details of how magic is used will be found in the HoME books rather than in the Sil. or LotR.


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