# Gandalf the strongest Maiar



## Maegnas (Nov 26, 2003)

If Gandalf was the strongest Maiar then how did Suarmon beat him at battling in the Fellowship?


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## Inderjit S (Nov 26, 2003)

He was the wisest not the strongest, there is a difference. 

He never fought Saruman (well not to my recollection.)

Besides, the Istari were sent to Middle-Earth incarnate and shorn of a great deal of their inherent powers.


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## Maegnas (Nov 26, 2003)

What about when Saruman held Gandalf captive in his tower.


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## Celebthôl (Nov 26, 2003)

He tricked him into that, he had a way with words, Gandalf fell into that trap once, thats how, but the next time they met Gandalf had the power of voice over Saruman. . .


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## Maegnas (Nov 26, 2003)

Thanks Celebthol I have another quastion who was the strongest Maiar?


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## Inderjit S (Nov 26, 2003)

Saruman didn't fight Gandalf and then thrust him on top of the tower. He was trapped, and Saruman's guards took him to the pinnacle of Orthanc. There was no hope of escape from his enemies citadel anyway. Gandalf was strong, but not invincible.



> have another quastion who was the strongest Maiar



In battle, presumably Eonwë.


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## Phenix (Nov 26, 2003)

I'd say sauron would be one of the stronger ones....atleast one of the most powerfull on the evil side....


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## Celebthôl (Nov 26, 2003)

I recon Melian was.


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## Aragorn21 (Nov 26, 2003)

I have a question also. How Gandalf get his staff back after being trapped on orthanc? is the mentioned somewhere?


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## Ithrynluin (Nov 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Celebthôl _
> *I recon Melian was. *



Melian the strongest Maia? Where did you get that impression?



> How Gandalf get his staff back after being trapped on orthanc?



He could have simply obtained a new one. I don't think there's any indication that the Wizard's staffs were unique and irreplacable.


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## Celebthôl (Nov 27, 2003)

> Melian the strongest Maia? Where did you get that impression?



The girdle of Melian, her foresight, she even bared Morgoth from coming into Thingols land, being able to restrain the mightiest being on Arda isnt an easy feat. . . its just my opinion as much as anything else. . .


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## Ithrynluin (Nov 27, 2003)

I was thinking of physical strength, so we can discount foresight and wisdom. The Girdle is powerful, but I don't think it would hold off Morgoth himself. Just because he didn't attempt to cross it, doesn't mean he couldn't do it (he only left his fortress once). Melian is still only a Maia.


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## Celebthôl (Nov 27, 2003)

How many other Maias had a girdle?

Sauron?
Saruman?
Gandalf?

I dont recall any of them having one, although the Sauron and Saruman would have loved them im sure. . .

But if it is in physical strength only, then i guess Eonwë would be correct, didnt he lead the host of the Valar against Morgoth?


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## Lantarion (Nov 27, 2003)

Well he led _a_ host, but I should think that the Valar just leaped around on their own. 

Well have we all discounted Gandalf as 'the White'? It seems to me like he was basically the most powerful Maia in M-e at that point, possibly including Sauron. But we're not given a terribly exact description of his 'powers' (which is a good thing; vagueness or mysticism are often good qualities in a story), except that by a simple word he cracks a staff which is fairly far above him (I doubt her even had eye contact with it).

But yeah, Eönwë definately; and Sauron's 'powers' were 90% guile and trickery (like with Tol-in-Gaurhoth), so should he be discounted? I don't think so. 
A Maia's powers (I like the term 'Valinorean stature') should not only be defined in terms of physical prowess or strength.


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## Gothmog (Nov 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Aragorn21 _
> *I have a question also. How Gandalf get his staff back after being trapped on orthanc? is the mentioned somewhere? *


 The only Mention of this that I can think of at the moment is during the council of Elrond as Gandalf talks about the time he was imprisoned on the top of Orthanc. Frodo then tells of his dream in the house of Bombadil where he saw Gandalf with his staff. As Gandalf seemed to endorce the accuracy of the dream or "Vision" of Frodo it seems quite possible that Saruman could not take the Staff from Gandalf and so he would not have had to replace it.

Another point to this, when Gandalf spoke to Saruman after the destruction of the ring of Isengard by the Ents, he did not take Saruman's staff but when Saruman refused to give it up volanterally Gandlaf then Broke it. So I would say that the Staff of an Istari could not be taken by another but could be broken. This also seems to point to the conclusion that the Staffs did indeed have importance. The question is just how important were they?


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## Beleg (Nov 27, 2003)

*Gothmog* posted, 



> The question is just how important were they?



Hmm, how important?

Let's see. 

Harad posted this in an answer to a question of mine 


MAKE LIGHT


*from LOTR*




> He could As the wizard passed on ahead up the great steps, he held his staff aloft, and from its tip there came a faint radiance.


[/list=a]



MAKE FIRE





> _ibid_
> Picking up a faggot he held it aloft for a moment, and then with a word of command, naur an edraith ammen! he thrust the end of his staff into the midst of it. At once a great spout of green and blue flame sprang out, and the wood flared and sputtered.


[/list=b]


EMPHASIZE SPELLS?




> _ibid_
> Picking up his staff he stood before the rock and said in a clear voice: Mellon!


[/list=c]



MAKE RUNES FADE?




> _ibid_
> He stepped up to the rock again, and lightly touched with his staff the silver star in the middle beneath the sign of the anvil.
> Annon edhellen, edro hi ammen!
> Fennas nogothrim, lasto beth lammen!
> he said in a commanding voice. The silver lines faded, but the blank grey stone did not stir.


[/list=d]



OPEN UNBLOCKED DOORS





> _ibid_
> They heard Gandalf go back down the steps and thrust his staff against the doors. There was a quiver in the stone and the stairs trembled, but the doors did not open.


[/list=e]



DESTROY BRIDGES





> _ibid_
> At that moment Gandalf lifted his staff, and crying aloud he smote the bridge before him. The staff broke asunder and fell from his hand. A blinding sheet of white flame sprang up. The bridge cracked. Right at the Balrog's feet it broke, and the stone upon which it stood crashed into the gulf, while the rest remained, poised, quivering like a tongue of rock thrust out into emptiness.


[/list=f]



DISARM OPPONENTS



> _ibid_
> He lifted up his staff, and Gimli's axe leaped from his grasp and fell ringing on the ground. The sword of Aragorn, stiff in his motionless hand, blazed with a sudden fire. Legolas gave a great shout and shot an arrow high into the air: it vanished in a flash of flame.


[/list=g]



MAKE THUNDER AND DARKNESS



> _ibid_
> He raised his staff. There was a roll of thunder. The sunlight was blotted out from the eastern windows; the whole hall became suddenly dark as night. The fire faded to sullen embers. Only Gandalf could be seen, standing white and tall before the blackened hearth.


[/list=h]


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## Gothmog (Nov 28, 2003)

And there is also this


> At that moment he caught a flash of white and silver coming from the North, like a small star down on the dusky fields. It moved with the speed of an arrow and grew as it came, converging swiftly with the flight of the four men towards the Gate. It seemed to Pippin that a pale light was spread about it and the heavy shadows gave way before it; and then as it drew near he thought that he heard, like an echo in the walls, a great voice calling. 'Gandalf!'
> he cried. 'Gandalf! He always turns up when things are darkest. Go on! Go on, White Rider! Gandalf, Gandalf!' he shouted wildly, like an onlooker at a great race urging on a runner who is far beyond encouragement.
> But now the dark swooping shadows were aware of the newcomer. One wheeled towards him; but it seemed to Pippin *that he raised his hand, and from it a shaft of white light stabbed upwards*. The Nazgúl gave a long wailing cry and swerved away; and with that the four others wavered, and then rising in swift spirals they passed away eastward vanishing into the lowering cloud above; and down on the Pelennor it seemed for a while less dark.


 From Return of the King: The seige of Gondor

Gandalf did not make use of his staff in this one so I ask once more "Just How Important are the Staffs to the Istari?" Did they need the staff to be able to use many of their powers or were they more symbolic?


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## Helcaraxë (Nov 29, 2003)

At the bridge of Khazad Dum, Gandalf made the "blinding sheet of white flame" AFTER his staff had been broken. Of course, this may only be an after-effect. However, how could Gandalf have fought the Balrog at the Battle of the Peak if he required his staff. Also, Tolkien says in one of his letters (don't have the exact quote) that most magic in LotR was the result of an inherent faculty of the magic-user. The more "spell-oriented" magic used by the Istari (incantations, for instance) was secondary. (All Ainur, and many powerful elves, possessed innate powers that could be considered magical.)

--MB


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## Gildor (Dec 10, 2003)

A wizard's staff seems to be a symbol and focus of their power...something like a lens or antenna that allows them to more easily direct their energies. The staff is quite important and helpful, but the wizard is not completely powerless without it.

Gandalf's breaking of Saruman's staff was symbolic of banishing him from the order, but I believe that being cast out diminished Saruman far more than the loss of his staff did.


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## Eriol (Dec 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lantarion _
> *Well have we all discounted Gandalf as 'the White'? It seems to me like he was basically the most powerful Maia in M-e at that point, possibly including Sauron. But we're not given a terribly exact description of his 'powers' (which is a good thing; vagueness or mysticism are often good qualities in a story), except that by a simple word he cracks a staff which is fairly far above him (I doubt her even had eye contact with it).
> *



Well...



> I am Gandalf the White, but the Black is mightier still.



Gandalf is not overconfident when he confronts the Witch-King, remember (check his words about it to Denethor); and the Witch-King _is_ extremely overconfident. I don't think the Witch-King was stupid, hehe. He might have been mistaken, sure, but even so I think it unlikely that Gandalf would simply zap him away. It would have been a mighty battle; the Witch-King was, quite likely, a more dangerous foe at that moment than even the Balrog was. 

(Just an idea to throw around ).


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## Ithrynluin (Dec 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Eriol _
> *the Witch-King was, quite likely, a more dangerous foe at that moment than even the Balrog was. *



I don't think I agree with this. Sure the Witch-King (Which king? ) was a mighty warrior and sorcerer, but I don't think he can quite match up to a Maia. After all, the Balrog succeeded in slaying Gandalf - how much more 'dangerous' than that could the Witch-King have been?


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## Bucky (Dec 14, 2003)

_and Sauron's 'powers' were 90% guile and trickery _

Not so.

It wasn't guile & trickery that went into making the Ring Of Power the most powerful 'magical' force in Middle Earth for two Ages. It was most of Sauron's 'power'.

Eonwe must be high up the list.
Sauron too.
Melian, yes, but having the only girdle doesn't make her the most powerful. What happened when the Ringwraiths attempted to cross the Ford of Bruienen? Washed away in a flood.....
How about Treebeard's comment about the Orcs/evil forces being unable to enter Lothlorien "because of the great ones (Galadriel & Celeborn) here."?
So, magical ability to keep lesser evil being out of your 'territory' isn't some almighty power exclusive to Melian.

Curinur, he's up there too.

Gandalf the White, yeah, near the top too.

But, I'd go with Sauron & Eonwe at the very top.


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## BlackCaptain (Dec 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *I don't think I agree with this. Sure the Witch-King (Which king? ) was a mighty warrior and sorcerer, but I don't think he can quite match up to a Maia. After all, the Balrog succeeded in slaying Gandalf - how much more 'dangerous' than that could the Witch-King have been?  *



The key words from Eriol's quote were 'at the moment'. Yes, a Balrog would have provided great militaristic gains for Sauron, but the Valarauka would have been slain in time, but having already brought a significant number of deaths upon the Tirithrim. 

I, however, was the Captain of *Despair*. The one thing the Rhohhirim and Gondorians had over the enemy was their pride and valour in battle. Which King could do most to take this away? the Witch King! 

Think about it: 
Everywhere that even a rumour of my coming went, friends and foes of the light would all go into despair and doubt they could ever survive in war. The morale of the Gondorians and Rhohirrim was far more important than vast numbers. Hope for a brighter tomarrow is what kept them going, and while a Balrog to some extent can take that hope away, it doesnt compare to the Witch King's.

So at the time given, I would have been more lethal than a Balrog. I'm not saying by how much because I can't judge, but it's my opinion that I blow any Balrog out of the water


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## Ithrynluin (Dec 21, 2003)

> The one thing the Rhohhirim and Gondorians had over the enemy was their pride and valour in battle.



And how does that relate to the battle between *Gandalf* and *the Witch-King*? Clearly, both Gandalf and Shadowfax were 'immune' to the terror and despair that plagued the great majority of mortal men when the Nazgul were near.



> _The Silmarillion: The Valaquenta_
> For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of [color=sky blue]terror.[/color]





> _The Lord of the Rings; The Bridge of Khazad-dum_
> Legolas turned and set an arrow to the string, though it was a long shot for his small bow. He drew, but his hand fell, and the arrow slipped to the ground. He gave a cry of dismay and fear. Two great trolls appeared; they bore great slabs of stone, and flung them down to serve as gangways over the fire. But it was not the trolls that had [color=sky blue]filled the Elf with terror.[/color] The ranks of the orcs had opened, and they crowded away, [color=sky blue]as if they themselves were afraid.[/color] Something was coming up behind them. What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater; and [color=sky blue]a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it.[/color]



The Balrog's chief weapon is terror. The chief weapon of the Nazgul is also terror. I daresay a Maia would wield greater terror than a mortal man, however enhanced with powers beyond his own kind he may be.



> but the Valarauka would have been slain in time



Why are you certain of this? The Balrog was slain by Gandalf, but Gandalf himself had perished. The Witch-King was slain by Eowyn and Merry, but they survived.



> So at the time given, I would have been more lethal than a Balrog. I'm not saying by how much because I can't judge, but it's my opinion that I blow any Balrog out of the water



I believe the Witch-King _thought_ his time had come. To an extent, he was correct. He succeeded in breaking the gate of Minas Tirith and being the first foe ever to pass it. Yet his hope had cheated him in the end.


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## Lantarion (Dec 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin_
> The Balrog's chief weapon is terror. The chief weapon of the Nazgul is also terror. I daresay a Maia would wield greater terror than a mortal man, however enhanced with powers beyond his own kind he may be.


This I definately agree with. 
And in defense of the stance that a Valarauka (or rather the Balrog in the LotR) is stronger than the Witch-king, Gandalf, who was a Maia also, was killed by the Balrog; and he was the only one who was even able to confront it, and he perished.
But the Witch-king couldn't even kill of a Hobbit and a woman!! 
Ok that's a bit harshly put  but if he was so powerful and strong, why didn't he just kill Éowyn immediately? I see it as his overwhelming pride: the Witch-king was certainly greatly enhanced by Sauron's sorcery over him, but he was *still a Man*, with all of the flaws inherent to Men; and he had also been stripped of the one Gift of Men, death.


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## breadfan35 (Jan 7, 2004)

Ok, I'm probably back tracking here since I'm late to this conversation and I didn't read every post, but where is it stated that Gandalf and the other wizards are Maiar? There is this from _'Of the Rings of Power and The Third Age" of the Silmarillion:_

*"Even as the first shadows were felt in Mirkwood there appeared in the west of Middle-Earth the Istari, whom Men called the Wizards. None knew at that time whence they were, save Cirdan of the Havens, and only to Elrond and to Galadriel did he reveal that they came over the Sea. But afterwards it was said among the Elves that they were messengers sent by the Lord of the West to contest the power of Sauron if he should rise again, and to move Elves and Men and all living things of good will to valiant deeds.*

So from that we know that they are from the West, but not that they are Maiar. Where is that statement made? In what book?


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## breadfan35 (Jan 7, 2004)

And the singular of _Valaraukar_ is Valarauk_o_.



Just showing off what knowledge I _do_ have.


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## Lantarion (Jan 8, 2004)

Ack, you're right breadfan, it is with an 'o'. How ambarrassing. 

But as for the Istari = Maiar, 'Unfinished Tales' actually has the whole scene of the five Istari being gathered by the Valar and sent off to M-e.
Also, what else could they be? They were not Eruhíni or Dwarves, they were not Valar; and unlike Bombadil, they are in the forefront of the whole War of the Ring and their exploits are described in detail, leaving little doubt to which 'race' they belong to.


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## breadfan35 (Jan 9, 2004)

Lantarion said:


> Also, what else could they be? They were not Eruhíni or Dwarves, they were not Valar; and unlike Bombadil, they are in the forefront of the whole War of the Ring and their exploits are described in detail, leaving little doubt to which 'race' they belong to.




So it's never actually stated anywhere?


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## Gothmog (Jan 9, 2004)

As Lantarion has said, Unfinished Tales says clearly who the Istari are.

from UT: Part 4: The Istari


> Yet they were not so. For they came from over the Sea out of the Uttermost West; though this was for long known only to Círdan, Guardian of the Third Ring, master of the Grey Havens, who saw their landings upon the western shores. Emissaries they were from Lords of the West, the Valar, who still took counsel for the governance of Middle-earth, and when the shadow of Sauron began first to stir again took this means of resisting him. *For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies of as of Men, real and not feigned*, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years. And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed; whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men and Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt.


There is more information in the Essay giving the Maia name of some of the Istari.


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## Lantarion (Jan 10, 2004)

Thanks for the quote Gothmog. 


Gothmog said:


> There is more information in the Essay giving the Maia name of some of the Istari.


Ooh yeah, I really enjoyed reading about Olórin's meaning and etymology. Brilliant linguistics.


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