# If Sam had killed Gollum at Orodruin



## Anárion (Apr 12, 2003)

*Sam and Gollum at Orodruin*

Yay! Im back everyone! Not that any of you care or anything...but...oh well.
Anyway, I was wondering what would happen if Sam killed Gollum at Mt. Doom. Because in the book Gollum bites Frodos finger off and then falls in. But, if Sam had killed Gollum would like, Frodo accidently trip over a rock and fall into the lava? And then Sam jump in to save him? The possiblities are endless....


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## YayGollum (Apr 13, 2003)

Argh! What an evil idea!  I doubt that the evil sam could have killed poor Smeagol even if he tried! oh well. just to be evilly hypothetical, I would say that if the evil sam killed poor Smeagol for no good reason, the Nazgul would have shown up and taken the ring. I doubt that the evil sam would be able to fight off all of those guys and their scary flying mounts. They'd probably kill him and Frodo. That would be good. Anyways, after taking the ring, they'd head for Sauron, but Gandalf and those eagles would have met them and they would have a huge fight, but the Nazgul would win because there were more of them. Sauron would get his ring back and he would win the War of the Ring.


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## Aglarthalion (Apr 13, 2003)

*Re: Sam and Gollum at Orodruin*



> _Originally posted by Anárion _
> Yay! Im back everyone! Not that any of you care or anything...but...oh well.
> Anyway, I was wondering what would happen if Sam killed Gollum at Mt. Doom.


Then there'd be no one to stop Frodo from claiming the Ring as his own.



> Because in the book Gollum bites Frodos finger off and then falls in. But, if Sam had killed Gollum would like, Frodo accidently trip over a rock and fall into the lava? And then Sam jump in to save him? The possiblities are endless....


I suspect that Frodo would then try to escape by himself from Mt Doom, after he had taken the Ring for himself. I find it highly unlikely that he would accidentally fall into the fire. Even if he did, I don't think Sam would be _that_ loyal so as to follow Frodo. 

Assuming that Frodo had the Ring in his posession and did not fall by accident, he would then most certainly escape Mt Doom, with Sam not being able to follow because he would not be able to see Frodo. However, Frodo would then be captured by Sauron's forces when he made his way out of Mt Doom, most probably by the Nazgûl, as YayGollum mentioned.

Frodo would surely be killed, and the Ring would be taken from him by Sauron's forces. However, unlike YayGollum, I believe that Sauron would be able to reclaim the Ring without any delay, because the speed of the Nazgûl would allow the Ring to reach Barad-dûr with great haste. Therefore Sauron would have reclaimed the Ring, effectively earning victory in the War of the Ring, as he would then be able to destroy the forces which opposed him. As for Sam, he would probably eventually be killed by Sauron's forces, when he left Mt Doom.


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## Anárion (Apr 13, 2003)

Thats interesting, but would Frodo really be corrupted by the ring that fast? I mean, think about Bilbo, sure he was sort of corrupted and tried to take the ring from Frodo, but stopped himself. He wore the ring more then anyone else (besides Gollum and Sauron). So, if anyone would have taken off with the ring, wouldnt it have been Bilbo? Frodo only put the ring on a few times...
Lets see here...there was Bree, Amon Sul, at the little island place where Sam and Frodo spilt up with the group...and...thats about it...I think...
There might have been more places but I dont remember any of them because Frodo wasnt insane so much as to put it on in Mordor, but Sam was (stupid Sam!).
So heres another question, why didnt Bilbo try to take the ring away from Frodo in Imladris?


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## YayGollum (Apr 13, 2003)

I don't get why people are talking about Frodo going anywhere after deciding to put the One Ring on where it would be the strongest. It seemed to me to be that when he put the thing on, he was pretty brainless. oh well. Also, maybe I just tossed that thing in about a fight between Gandalf and the eagles and the Nazgul and their creepy vulture things for more excitement.  oh well. 

To the other question ---> I don't know. Because it had never had too much of a superly scary power over him? Because the One Ring wasn't really that powerful in Rivendell?


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## jallan (Apr 13, 2003)

From _Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien_, letter 246:


> Frodo in the tale actually takes the Ring and claims it, and certainly he too would have had a clear vision – but he was not given any time: he was immediately attacked by Gollum. When Sauron was aware of the seizure of the Ring his one hope was in its power: that the claimant would be unable to relinquish it until Sauron had time to deal with him. Frodo too would then probably, if not attacked, have had to take the same way: cast himself with the Ring into the abyss. If not he would of course have completely failed. It is an interesting problem: how Sauron would have acted or the claimant have resisted. Sauron sent at once the Ringwraiths. They were naturally fully instructed, and in no way deceived as to the real lordship of the Ring. The wearer would not be invisible to them, but the reverse; and the more vulnerable to their weapons. But the situation was now different to that under Weathertop, where Frodo acted merely in fear and wished only to use (in vain) the Ring’s subsidiary power of conferring invisibility. He had grown since then. Would they have been immune from its power if he claimed it as an instrument of command and domination?
> 
> Not wholly. I do not think they could have attacked him with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor commands of his that did not interfere with their errand – laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills. That errand was to remove Frodo from the Crack. Once he lost the power or opportunity to destroy the Ring, the end could not be in doubt – saving help from outside, which was hardly even remotely possible.
> 
> ...


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## Anárion (Apr 13, 2003)

Alllllllllllllriiiiiiight......maybe you could repeat that in English this time Jallan?


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## YayGollum (Apr 13, 2003)

It was in English. He was saying what Tolkien wrote that might have happened. The Nazgul wouldn't attack him like I was thinking. They'd just try to talk to him to get him to come to Sauron, who could attack him. This way, Gandalf would have had plenty of time to show up, but I'm still sure that he'd get killed. Again.


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## Anárion (Apr 13, 2003)

Frodo wouldnt be so insane as to listen to the naz would he?
Well, he did take the task on for himself, so i guess thats yes.

Hmmmm......Gandalf dieing again...I never did get that...how in Middle Earth did he come back to life anyway?


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## YayGollum (Apr 13, 2003)

God, I guess. Why not? oh well. *waits for other people's opinions*


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## Anárion (Apr 13, 2003)

Why not what?
I dont understand what your talking about!
I guess my opinion is that Gandalf wasnt exactly human or something..but..how can you use magic to bring yourself back to life if your dead? Weird...


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## jallan (Apr 13, 2003)

Gandalf the White explains he was _sent_ back.

J.R.R. Tolkien partly explains Gandalf’s vague explanation in letter 156:


> He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. ‘Naked I was sent back &#8211 for a brief time, until my task is done’. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the ‘gods’ whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed ‘out of thought and time’. Naked is alas! unclear. It was meant just literally, ‘unclothed like a child’ (not discarnate), and so ready to receive the white robes of the highest. Galadriel's power is not divine, and his healing in Lórien is meant to be no more than physical healing and refreshment.


It would seem that on death Gandalf’s spirit passed beyond the world and was returned by Ilúvatar.

It is not clear why the spirit of an incarnate Maia should leave the world since according to the Ainulindalë those Ainur who had descended into Eä were bound to it until the End.

One might therefore expect Gandalf’s spirit to fly back to Aman only, probably to Mandos, since through time and usage, as Tolkien explains in the _Ósanwë-Kenta_, the spirit of a Maia that becomes incarnate becomes dependant on a body and becomes practically powerless without one.

But, if Tolkien claims differently that Gandalf’s spirit left the world altogether, then I guess we should accept it.


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## YayGollum (Apr 14, 2003)

I was talking about God giving him life again. Eru. Same thing. Anyways, instead of his spirit heading for Mandos or whatever, he got to go talk to Eru so he could get some advice.


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## Lantarion (Apr 14, 2003)

Thanks for the amazing quotes, jallan! I _have_ to get the Letters!
Is this _Ósanwë-Kenta_ in one of the HoME- editions? That's another set I have to get!


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## Maerbenn (Apr 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lantarion _
> *Is this Ósanwë-Kenta in one of the HoME- editions?*


 It was published in _Vinyar Tengwar_ #39, July 1998.


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