# Worship of Youth Long Life by the Numenorians



## 1stvermont (Jul 2, 2021)

Its been a bit since i read the Silmarillion. I was wondering if anyone could provide me with a couple of good passages on their worship of youth and living longer.

Thanks.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jul 2, 2021)

I haven't time to look at the moment, but I don't recall any worshipping of "youth", and perhaps "worship" wouldn't convey their attitude. They developed a yearning for a lost immortality -- understandable, I'd think, since they had examples of it readily available.


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## Miguel (Jul 2, 2021)

They should worship white egg on a bowl, a spoon of honey and a spoon of milk all well mixed. Then apply on face, leave it for 25/30 minutes and your face looks wah!. If the ingredients come from Tol Eressëa the results are even more wah!.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jul 2, 2021)

Given the number of times I've ended up with egg on my face, I should be super-wah!


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## Olorgando (Jul 2, 2021)

1stvermont said:


> Its been a bit since i read the Silmarillion. I was wondering if anyone could provide me with a couple of good passages on their worship of youth and living longer.
> 
> Thanks.


The "youth craze" I'm guessing you're thinking of is a *very* recent development, starting at the earliest in the (late) 1960's in western countries, and here very much limited to western Europe and the US / Canada. It was later fueled by computers, the Internet, and "smart"-phones.


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## Elthir (Jul 2, 2021)

I thought I smelled eggs. 
And I was right.

🐾


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## 1stvermont (Jul 3, 2021)

I guess I will have to go back and read Akallabeth to see what the hell i am talking about. Maybe old age is catching up. Perhaps it was a letter by Tolkien this for some reason is coming to mind. 

I think Tolkien applied the modern worship of youth to the downfall of the numnorians in their quest for longer life. If i find something i will post.

​


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## Olorgando (Jul 3, 2021)

1stvermont said:


> I think Tolkien applied the modern worship of youth ...


That's where I think, externally, the timeline doesn't fit, as JRRT's (published) writing (completion of LoTR) and even the first, tentative stirrings of the youth craze are separated by at least a decade and a half, probably more. 1949 to 1964 minimum.

And then how to fit this into the internal longevity of the Númenóreans?

The first 14 successors to Elros averaged just over 400 years of life. Four generations later, that dropped below 300, never to recover (quite the opposite).
But that's the royal house of Elros. What kind of longer life in Númenor was granted to the "rank and file"?
JRRT, as far as I can remember, never went into this topic in detail in writing.
But unless the Valar (*and* Eru) are utterly daft (a thought that is *unavoidable* upon repeated readings of HoMe!), the rank and file should also have been given longevity scraping 200 occasionally.

If you want to try and fit our last-third-of-the-20th-century youth craze on that time frame - be my guest. I ain't touching that with a 10-foot pole!


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## 1stvermont (Jul 4, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> That's where I think, externally, the timeline doesn't fit, as JRRT's (published) writing (completion of LoTR) and even the first, tentative stirrings of the youth craze are separated by at least a decade and a half, probably more. 1949 to 1964 minimum.
> 
> And then how to fit this into the internal longevity of the Númenóreans?
> 
> ...



You might very well be correct. What I have found in my studies of history is philosophies are around for a good while before they become popular and original reactions are made to them before they eventually are forgotten.


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## 1stvermont (Jul 12, 2021)

I have not given up my pursuit in trying to justify my op. I have just reread Akallabeth and found nothing to support my fuzzy memory. but that does not stop a stubborn hobbit like me. I shall next search letters to find what apparently only I remember. if that goes ill Lost tales it is. But lets not speak of if that does not go my way....


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## Olorgando (Jul 12, 2021)

I have another little trivia statistic from that list of Númenórean rulers from UT:

The age of the rulers when the heir was born was over 100 for the first eighteen of them, with the 18th, Tar-Calmacil, being the youngest of those at 102, and the last to be over 100 at birth of the heir. The oldest was the 13th ruler, Tar-Atanamir, 186 at the birth of his heir, and also at 421 second oldest ruler after Elros. The average age at the birth of an heir for those first 18 was almost 149. Any royal Númenórean "youth craze" would involve age numbers to make our heads spin ...


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## 1stvermont (Jul 13, 2021)

Well, I checked letters on corruption and decay of Numenor and found.....not much of anything. My life motto seems to be "I am not crazy everyone else is" but this time it seems [as unbearable as it is to admit] I am the crazy one. But thinking a bit more i might be able to squire out of this horrible conclusion, it's not me it's age, my memory is starting to go a bit it seems, I am reaching multiple subjects at the same time and i must have gotten mixed up. It could happen to anyone, right? Anything, anything at all.


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## Olorgando (Jul 13, 2021)

1stvermont said:


> My life motto seems to be "I am not crazy everyone else is" ...


I've been driving around in Germany (and a bit in France, Austria, Switzerland, and Ireland) for 43 years in own cars by now. And in Spain and the island of Crete in rented cars on vacation. My experience is that such a motto is not the worst one to have when taking part in traffic. I would even have to categorize some of my friends as loonies as soon as they get behind a steering wheel.

And never mind that vacation in the early 1990's by own car in Ireland! We had to transit from (Kingston upon) Hull in Yorkshire to Holyhead in Wales, and of course back again, and in between three weeks of driving around Ireland. They all drive on the wrong side of the road on those islands!!!


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jul 13, 2021)

Resulting in your worship of long life? 🤔


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## 1stvermont (Jul 13, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> I've been driving around in Germany (and a bit in France, Austria, Switzerland, and Ireland) for 43 years in own cars by now. And in Spain and the island of Crete in rented cars on vacation. My experience is that such a motto is not the worst one to have when taking part in traffic. I would even have to categorize some of my friends as loonies as soon as they get behind a steering wheel.
> 
> And never mind that vacation in the early 1990's by own car in Ireland! We had to transit from (Kingston upon) Hull in Yorkshire to Holyhead in Wales, and of course back again, and in between three weeks of driving around Ireland. They all drive on the wrong side of the road on those islands!!!



Carpenter tells of a great story about one of the few times Tolkien drove. Something like he stepped on the gas at a light when others cars were intersecting and yelled "charge em and they scatter." I guess his wife or kids refused to drive with him [see me and tolkien do have allot in common].


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## Olorgando (Jul 13, 2021)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Resulting in your worship of long life? 🤔


No, but probably helped in in avoiding mine being shortened.

I still remember an incident, quite a while ago, driving on the right-of-way road outside city limits (so limit was 70 kph instead of 50) with someone coming out of a side road (that had to yield) from the left. Driver was looking to the left, correctly as that was the first lane he had to cross. But the idiot neglected to look to the right, out of which direction I was approaching. I somehow noticed this, and when the idiot then crossed the road I was on, I was barely able to swerve to my left and pass *behind* his car. He would have been in the bigger trouble - I had no chance to stop in that short a distance, and would have rammed the front of my car into the side of his. 🥶


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## Alcuin (Jul 14, 2021)

1stvermont said:


> Carpenter tells of a great story about one of the few times Tolkien drove. Something like he stepped on the gas at a light when others cars were intersecting and yelled "charge em and they scatter." I guess his wife or kids refused to drive with him [see me and tolkien do have allot in common].


According to Humphrey Carpenter, JRR Tolkien owned and operated a motorcar from 1932 until the Second World War in which “he loved to explore the villages of Oxfordshire.” (_Tolkien: a biography_, “Photographs observed”) He illustrated and wrote a story, _Mr. Bliss_, in that order, and while it has been some time since I’ve read it (and looked at its pictures), I believe Mr. Bliss had some difficulties with an automobile; I seem to have once read that these reflected problems Tolkien had, but I cannot presently place the description.

Carpenter also cites a work I have never read, “The Bovadium Fragments” in a footnote in chapter “The storyteller”.
​“Mr Bliss” was not the only composition by Tolkien owing its inspiration to motor transport. “The Bovadium Fragments” … is a parable of the destruction of Oxford (_Bovadium_) by the _motores_ manufactured by the _Daemon_ of _Vaccipratum_ … which block the streets, asphyxiate the inhabitants, and finally explode.​​​


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## Olorgando (Jul 14, 2021)

Alcuin said:


> According to Humphrey Carpenter, JRR Tolkien owned and operated a motorcar from 1932 until the Second World War in which “he loved to explore the villages of Oxfordshire.”


I've just found another bit to put in my ironic "this *cannot* be a coincidence!" drawer, from Wikipedia about driver's licenses:

"Mandatory licensing for drivers in the United Kingdom came into force on 1 January 1904 after the Motor Car Act 1903 received royal assent. Every car owner had to register their vehicle with their local government authority and be able to prove registration of their vehicle on request. The minimum qualifying age was set at 17. The "driving licence" gave its holder 'freedom of the road' with a maximum 20 mph (32 km/h) speed limit. *Compulsory testing was introduced in 1934*, with the passing of the Road Traffic Act."

So it took JRRT just two years to force the then UK government (like its predecessors for endless centuries prone to a severe rash at even the slightest suggestion of "regulation") to force compulsory testing. As a driving test was only instituted as of 01 June 1935 (and only for *new* drivers - *DUH!*), I wonder what they tested up to then. This RTA was due to the fact that "... fatalities had increased to 7,343 deaths and 231,603 injuries. Half the deaths were of pedestrians ...".
Germany's traffic fatalities have been less than half that since 2012, and below that since 2001. And that with probably 1,000 times the number of registered motor vehicles. So perhaps JRRT was not all that unusual in his driving incompetence at the time (and don't get me started on those vehicles of the time having the nimbleness and agility of the average ox-cart!).


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## Aukwrist (Aug 26, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> That's where I think, externally, the timeline doesn't fit, as JRRT's (published) writing (completion of LoTR) and even the first, tentative stirrings of the youth craze are separated by at least a decade and a half, probably more. 1949 to 1964 minimum.
> 
> And then how to fit this into the internal longevity of the Númenóreans?
> 
> ...



Elros was 500 when he died, which suggests he was equivalent to an (exceptionally ?) old man of 100, but without any senile decay of any kind.

The Numenorean Rulers down to Tar-Calmacil, with the exceptions of Tar-Meneldur and Tar-Aldarion, all lived to at least 400 years. Which could be understood as meaning they lived to 5 x 80 years - not exceptional, but still a very good old age.

Elendil was 322 when he was killed, and Isildur was 234. This suggests that the Lords of Andunie descended from Silmarien, unlike their cousins on the throne, continued to live a long time in good health, unaffected by the Shadow. This suggests that Elendil's age at death was functionally equivalent to 322 divided by 5, or 64.4; and that Isildur's age was functionally equivalent to 234 divided by 5, or 46.8. It is as good as stated that the lifespans of the Dunedain waned in Middle-earth after the Downfall - the waning may have affected Dunedain born in Numenor who had lived all or most of their lives there, less than those who were born in Middle-earth. That may explain why Meneldil son of Anarion, born in Numenor in 3318, lived for 281 years, whereas his young cousin Valandil, who was 11 in 3441, lived to only 260. By the end of Aragorn's reign, he had lived 210 years, which is presumably to be read as 3 times 70 years. Contrast with that how Ar-Pharazon was feeling his age at 201, which was presumably functionally equivalent to an elderly 67 (x3).

Some of the earlier descendants of Elros lived to over 300, to judge from the family trees in UT.


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## Alcuin (Aug 27, 2021)

Aukwrist said:


> Elros was 500 when he died, which suggests he was equivalent to an (exceptionally ?) old man of 100, but without any senile decay of any kind.
> 
> The Numenorean Rulers down to Tar-Calmacil, with the exceptions of Tar-Meneldur and Tar-Aldarion, all lived to at least 400 years. ...


"Decline of the Lifespan of the Númenóreans"


And this:


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## Olorgando (Aug 27, 2021)

Alcuin said:


> And this:


As to Goofy: my parents and I only arrived in the US a year later, and I was allowed to drive a car eight years later.
In my time, I know that highways weren't *nearly* as *un*congested as shown in the Goofy cartoon.
Have any of the other issues gotten better? 😵


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## Alcuin (Aug 27, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> In my time, I know that highways weren't *nearly* as *un*congested as shown in the Goofy cartoon.
> Have any of the other issues gotten better?


Gar nicht!


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