# Was it ok for Manwe to pardon Melkor?



## Arvedui (Oct 14, 2003)

> But Ulmo was not deceived, and Tulkas clenched his hands whenever he saw Melkor his foe go by; for if Tulkas is slow to wrath he is slow also to forget. But they obeyed the judgement of Manwë; for those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel~_The Silmarillion_



*Was it ok for Manwe to pardon Melkor?* 

Another topic from the Debate Tournament. 
When this was debated, it was not allowed to use the essay Ósanwe kenta. As I have not read it, I am not sure if that rule should apply here as well?


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## Flammifer (Oct 14, 2003)

An interesting topic. I'd debate it, but first shouldn't it be moved to "The Silmarillion" section of "The Works"?


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## Confusticated (Oct 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Arvedui _
> *
> When this was debated, it was not allowed to use the essay Ósanwe kenta. As I have not read it, I am not sure if that rule should apply here as well? *



Well pretty much the same reason given in Osanwe Kenta is mentioned in Myth's Transformed in Morgoth's Ring... I think it should be allowed in a discussion, but I'd like to hear people have to say first. 



> ...but first shouldn't it be moved to "The Silmarillion" section of "The Works"?


I guess it gets confusing when you open 21 threads within half an hour.


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## Arvedui (Oct 14, 2003)

Okay.
I think we shall give it a go, no works prohibited!


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## Ithrynluin (Oct 14, 2003)

Here are the words of Pengolodh from the essay "Ósanwe-kenta":



> If we speak last of the "folly" of Manwe and the weakness and unwariness of the Valar, let us beware how we judge. In the histories, indeed, we may be amazed and grieved to read how (seemingly) Melkor deceived and cozened others, and [color=sky blue]how even Manwe appears at times almost a simpleton compared with him: as if a kind but unwise father were treating a wayward child who would assuredly in time perceive the error of his ways. Whereas we, looking on and knowing the outcome, see now that Melkor knew well the error of his ways, but was fixed in them by hate and pride beyond return[/color]. He could read the mind of Manwe, for the door was open; but his own mind was false and even if the door seemed open, there were doors of iron within closed for ever.





> How otherwise would you have it? [color=sky blue]Should Manwe and the Valar meet secrecy with subterfuge, treachery with falsehood, lies with more lies? If Melkor would usurp their rights, should they deny his? Can hate overcome hate? [/color]Nay, Manwe was wiser; or being ever open to Eru he did His will, which is more than wisdom. He was ever open because he had nothing to conceal, no thought that it was harmful for any to know, if they could comprehend it. Indeed Melkor knew his will without questioning it; and he knew that Manwe was bound by the commands and injunctions of Eru, and would do this or abstain from that in accordance with them, always, even knowing that Melkor would break them as it suited his purpose. Thus the merciless will ever count on mercy, and the liars make use of truth; [color=sky blue]for if mercy and truth are withheld from the cruel and the lying, they have ceased to be honoured.[/color]





> Manwe could not by duress attempt to compel Melkor to reveal his thought and purposes, or (if he used words) to speak the truth. If he spoke and said: this is true, he must be believed until proved false; if he said: this I will do, as you bid, [color=sky blue]he must be allowed the opportunity to fulfill his promise[/color].





> The office of the Elder King was to retain all his subjects in the allegiance of Eru, or to bring them back to it, and in that allegiance to leave them free.





> The weakest and most imprudent of all the actions of Manwe, as it seems to many, was the release of Melkor from captivity. From this came the greatest loss and harm: the death of the Trees, and the exile and the anguish of the Noldor. Yet through this suffering there came also, as maybe in no other way could it have come, the victory of the Elder Days: the downfall of Angband and the last overthrow of Melkor.



Sorry to quote so much, but these offer a brilliant explanation and insight into Manwë's motives.  

Manwë was right in his resolution to pardon Melkor. He had to grant freedom to Melkor, because Melkor abjured his evil deeds and repented of all the harm that he had caused. Manwë was obliged to give him the benefit of the doubt. The same could be said for Eönwë pardoning Sauron, and giving him a chance to reform, even if Sauron's pleas and confessions were false (though it is said that they were not such initially).

Good must not make use of the same devices that Evil does, because then it would be no different than evil to some extent. That's why Good often appears naivë, and Evil cunning and resourceful. A good example of that would be how Ulmo and Tulkas, even though they saw through Melkor's goody-two-shoes-supposedly-reformed facade, they didn't want to rebel against authority (which was Manwë), and against his decision of giving everyone a second chance to turn to the right path.

Just like it says in that first quote, it is easier for us - the readers who know the full story - to simply say that Manwë should not have released Melkor from his bondage - ever. Manwë was giving him a chance, even when it was highly likely that Melkor would break his promise. It is how 'good' worked in Arda under Ilúvatar.


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## Arvedui (Oct 14, 2003)

Hmmm...
Maybe we should bar the Ósanwe-kenta after all?  

I agree with ithrynluin, but in a much simpler way:
To me, Manwë is the perfect example of someone being so totally filled with Good, that he cannot even comprehend what Evil really is.
Therefore he is unable to understand Melkor at all.

Besides, he had sentenced Melkor to imprisonment for three ages, and after having served his sentence, he was brought before the Valar again.
And when he abased himself, Manwë had no choice but to do as he had promised.


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## Confusticated (Oct 14, 2003)

> Hmmm...
> Maybe we should bar the Ósanwe-kenta after all?



I figured no one would post that any time soon after reading my post. Ah well *shrugs*

But we could move the discussion over to Manwe appearing as a simpleton at other times. Thinking Feanor could not hold sway over the Noldor, for example. Failing to realise that the unrest of the Noldor just might have something to do with Melkor being among them.

PS: *slaps* ithrynluin for posting that.


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## Celebthôl (Oct 14, 2003)

If a man came before you after 30 years of imprisonment who had been convicted of a crime and he put on the face that he was sorry and totally repents (its negligable whether he is or not), then you will believe him. He may be lieing, but you have to prove he is still bad and doesnt repent, the best way to do this is to let him go and watch him closely. If they are still bad, the pull a Morgoth  if they are good they reurn (sp) your trust and everything is happy again


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## Confusticated (Oct 14, 2003)

> ...let him go and watch him closely.



This would show lack of trust though. But I'm not saying Manwe shouldn't have done it. They did not watch Melkor closely enough. In fact they probably could have watched Melkor himself closely all they wanted... they failed to notice the things that somehow went on around him. They underestimated his cunning, but why shouldn't they have? Good people/Valar are naive to evil. 

PS: Hi Thol


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## Ithrynluin (Oct 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Celebthôl _
> *If a man came before you after 30 years of imprisonment who had been convicted of a crime and he put on the face that he was sorry and totally repents (its negligable whether he is or not), then you will believe him. He may be lieing, but you have to prove he is still bad and doesnt repent, the best way to do this is to let him go and watch him closely. If they are still bad, the pull a Morgoth  if they are good they reurn (sp) your trust and everything is happy again  *



Nicely put, Thol.

I wanted to comment on the 'watch him closely' part. Did the Valar watch Melkor closely enough? Did they watch him *at all*? Or did they all abide by Manwë's decision of giving everyone a second (last?) chance, even if that person would wreak havoc afterwards, as Morgoth did?



> _Originally posted by Arvedui _
> *Hmmm...
> Maybe we should bar the Ósanwe-kenta after all?
> *





> _Originally posted by Nóm _
> *PS: *slaps* ithrynluin for posting that.  *



Well sooooooooo - rry!


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## Celebthôl (Oct 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Nóm _
> *This would show lack of trust though. But I'm not saying Manwe shouldn't have done it. They did not watch Melkor closely enough. In fact they probably could have watched Melkor himself closely all they wanted... they failed to notice the things that somehow went on around him. They underestimated his cunning, but why shouldn't they have? Good people/Valar are naive to evil.
> 
> PS: Hi Thol  *



 HIYA!! 

But Ulmo was not decieved and Yulkas clenched his hands, they were not taken i by it, maybe they talked Manwë into watching Melkor  

Ithy: thats a good point, he spread lots of lies about the Valar, and they didnt cotton on, me thinks they dont know how to spy


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## Grond (Oct 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Arvedui _
> *Hmmm...
> Maybe we should bar the Ósanwe-kenta after all?
> 
> ...


 Hey people!! Why on Middle-earth would you put a guy in charge who cannot comprehend Evil??? Evil is absolutely a part of the world and you would be totally crazy to put a Mister Goody-two-shoes in charge who can't see it. Seems to me even the simpleton Tulkas would have been a better choice. At least he could tell right from wrong. Heck!! Even better would be Ulmo. Anybody who can "swim with the fishes" and still lives gets my vote.


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## Confusticated (Oct 16, 2003)

I believe it was a necessity that Manwe have a degree of ignorance... ignorance of a certain kind which would allow him to work Iluvatar's will without being aware of all hell he allows to happen. If a Vala who was not free from falling into evil were in charge he may do just that.

But I am glad someone else thinks Tulkas was a simpleton .


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## Maedhros (Oct 16, 2003)

> Hey people!! Why on Middle-earth would you put a guy in charge who cannot comprehend Evil??? Evil is absolutely a part of the world and you would be totally crazy to put a Mister Goody-two-shoes in charge who can't see it. Seems to me even the simpleton Tulkas would have been a better choice. At least he could tell right from wrong. Heck!! Even better would be Ulmo. Anybody who can "swim with the fishes" and still lives gets my vote.


I don't see Manwë as ignorant. I think that he had _genuine_ hope that Melkórë would be _healed_ so to speak. I think that in some sort of way, Manwë had some grasp as to what would happen. He had given his word to Melkórë and he had to keep it. Manwë must somehow have grasped that it was important for the evolution of Arda that Melkórë would be free to act.

The reason that Ósanwe-kenta was prohibited was because it would have been no contest.


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## Confusticated (Oct 16, 2003)

But Manwe did have ingorance. He did not know as much of what was to come as did Mandos, for example. That he could not comprehend evil is a form of ignorance. But if Manwe had known and understood all that Mandos and Ulmo did, he could not be Manwe.


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## Manwe (Nov 11, 2003)

I dont know what others have said but if I want to give my evil brother a second chance I will and theres nothin you can do about it!  .


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