# I wonder... why people keeps posting about this series, and what that has to do with Tolkien?



## d4rk3lf (Oct 28, 2022)

I wonder... why people keeps posting about this series, and what that has to do with Tolkien?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 28, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> I wonder... why people keeps posting about this series, and what that has to do with Tolkien?


The same question could be asked about PJ, and we have _two _forums devoted to him! 😉


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Oct 28, 2022)

That is true. I think we are just trying to appeal to every crowd on this Forum. Something for everyone from the "I just watched the movies", "Rings of Power was suggested by Amazon so I watched" and also the other end of the spectrum including characters such as: "I have spent my entire life studying Tolkien and have read all his works at least twice".

Something for everyone, and inclusion for everyone. I think it's genius.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 28, 2022)

Yes. No matter what attitude different people have toward the various adaptations, TTF is about anything touching on Tolkien, so should be available for discussion.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Oct 28, 2022)

Agreed.


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## Ent (Oct 28, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> TTF is about anything touching on Tolkien, so should be available for discussion.


And if this were a different thread, this is what I would have shared too, sir SeS.
Whether we like it or not - whether we want to accept it or not - The Rings of Power is now very much a part of "The Tolkien Universe". 
And this is "The Tolkien Forum".
Therefore........ 
....... well ......
................ there you have it. 🙂


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## Sons of the Woodland King (Oct 28, 2022)

The Ent said:


> Indeed, and if it shows up in a new thread I'll be happy to speak to it. 😉


Ditto! If such a thread exists, point me there please cause I have feelings and opinions and y'all are such good listeners. 😶😬 

I live with two toddlers and my husband (bless him) barely knows the difference between a hobbit and a dwarf. 

How about we just think of Rings of Power as the literary great-great-great-great-great grandchild of Tolkien? Can barely see the resemblance, the blood relation has been watered down, and their ancestors might not even approve of them, but it doesn't mean we gotta kick them off the family tree.


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 28, 2022)

Sons of the Woodland King said:


> How about we just think of Rings of Power as the literary great-great-great-great-great grandchild of Tolkien? Can barely see the resemblance, the blood relation has been watered down, and their ancestors might not even approve of them, but it doesn't mean we gotta kick them off the family tree.


Ironic considering Christopher Lee's resemblance to his ancient ancestor.


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## Ent (Oct 28, 2022)

Sons of the Woodland King said:


> but it doesn't mean we gotta kick them off the family tree.


YAY... Thank you..! Well said.


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## d4rk3lf (Oct 28, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> The same question could be asked about PJ, and we have _two _forums devoted to him! 😉


Despite the fact I am despising some of the choices PJ made, and can't watch it because of utterly pathetic scenes (that PJ enjoys to do), I must admit that lot's of stuff Weta studio did was just about (perfect) right.
Therefore I must confess that LOTR movies ARE something that can, and should, have place in any mention of Tolkien adaptations. 



Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Yes. No matter what attitude different people have toward the various adaptations, TTF is about anything touching on Tolkien, so should be available for discussion.


Fully agreed! 
Please remove any mention of Rings of Power, as it has nothing to do with Tolkien.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 28, 2022)

You're certainly entitled to have an opinion-- but not to demand removal of anything you don't like. Sorry.


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## d4rk3lf (Oct 28, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> You're certainly entitled to have an opinion-- but not to demand removal of anything you don't like. Sorry.


Lol.
Where in my sentence you hear I am demanding anything?
I am well aware that I am not in position to demand anything here (and even if I am, I think I wouldn't).
That was, merely, just a suggestion.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 28, 2022)

We can call it a "request", then. But whatever you want to call it, I'm afraid the answer will still be no.


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## Ent (Oct 28, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> Where in my sentence you hear I am demanding anything?


You must be kidding? 



d4rk3lf said:


> Fully agreed!
> Please remove any mention of Rings of Power, as it has nothing to do with Tolkien.



It's called "Tone". your tone is "this is the way it is, agree with me, and I want you to remove RoP." 

It seems you would like all to agree with your particular viewpoint, and well... it's just not gonna happen that way. 

Perhaps a different approach would suit better if it's not your intent.


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## d4rk3lf (Oct 28, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> We can call it a "request", then. But whatever you want to call it, I'm afraid the answer will still be no.


No, it was never meant as request... please read again what I wrote.... 
As for "the answer will still be no", shows that you didn't understand the point I was trying to make.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 28, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> Please remove any mention of Rings of Power


That seems fairly clear.


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## d4rk3lf (Oct 28, 2022)

The Ent said:


> You must be kidding?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You really think that's how I am? 
Well... Ok... but I am not...

Christ!
Love what you love, live what you live... I respect all other opinions...


The Ent said:


> It seems you would like all to agree with your particular viewpoint, and well... it's just not gonna happen that way.


Not at all. 
I just write my particular viewpoint, and when I write it, I don't question myself if anyone likes it, nor I will try to convince to anyone to like it. 
From the other hand, I read opinions that I dislike, and Ok.. I still respect them of course.


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## Ent (Oct 28, 2022)

Here's the rub once again.
The Tolkien estate sold the rights to LoTR and its appendices.
The Tolkien estate agreed to Amazon's authoring of things adapted from the Second Age.
The Tolkien Estate, ipso facto, has stated this is part of the Tolkien universe by their agreement to let it proceed.

Characters Tolkien created are being used. Events Tolkien created are being used. Places Tolkien created are being used. it does not matter whether they're in his sequence or anything else. It is based on Tolkien's creation.

So... try as we might to say "this has nothing to do with Tolkien and his creation", we're just blowing wind. 

When we drive a car at a brick wall, we can be assured of one thing. The brick wall IS. It exists. And as much as we want to say "well, I can just keep driving because it isn't there", all we're going to do is end up with a very big repair bill.

Hopefully we don't end up with repair bills needing to be paid over this subject.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Oct 28, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> That seems fairly clear.


I'd agree. He seems he was trying to establish his own viewpoint and make others agree with it...which sadly, won't happen.

Arda doesn't revolve around the thoughts of a single desire.


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## d4rk3lf (Oct 28, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> That seems fairly clear.


"Please, remove Rings of Power", is a request? 

I must work more on my English... sorry about that.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Oct 28, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> "Please, remove Rings of Power", is a request?
> 
> I must work more on my English... sorry about that.


I forgive you.


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## Ent (Oct 28, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> "Please, remove Rings of Power", is a request?
> 
> I must work more on my English... sorry about that.


Yes, this is probably it.
Especially when coupled with "this has nothing to do with Tolkien"... something that just isn't true.

So... we've arrived at the end of this... and can all be happy.
These things happen.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 28, 2022)

Yes, let's move on.


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## d4rk3lf (Oct 28, 2022)

Look people... help me understand...
What I still don't get is... is sarcasm forbidden in this forum?
If Charles Dickens, in his famous novel Oliver Twist, is allowed to be so sarcastic, that my sarcasm "Please, remove the series", is child play, and I think from the start it was very clear it was not meant as a request, what are we talking here?

You can ban me right away, but I will keep repeating about that series "what this have to do with Tolkien"? or similar states.
Or.. please, remove it..

I still don't get how above can sound as request, or something like I want everyone to agree with me.. that's crazy..
Neither is request, neither I desperately want anyone to agree with me.. who agreed agreed.. who don't don't

Christ!
I still can't believe you actually consider that as a request.


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## Sons of the Woodland King (Oct 28, 2022)

What I'm just not clear on is, how is any work of art that is inspired by Tolkien's work somehow defined as "not related to Tolkien"? 

Though I suppose if this is just a way of venting displeasure against Rings of Power for not being AS closely related as one would prefer, then I can understand that. It's an opinion and we don't have to argue about semantics.  

My own opinion is, I'm glad this forum is not super restricted on what qualifies as Tolkien related, since I am not a Tolkien scholar and will probably be viewed as frivolous, shallow, or just ridiculous. 😅 So I appreciate the acceptance.


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## d4rk3lf (Oct 28, 2022)

Sons of the Woodland King said:


> What I'm just not clear on is, how is any work of art that is inspired by Tolkien's work somehow defined as "not related to Tolkien"?


It's because. it's not art. 
You can't make a White Fang adaptation, from fameous writter Jack London, and instead of wolf, put a puppe (small cute dog), and change the whole White Fang story (forget about all adventures with Indian tribe), and pretend you're an artist. 



Sons of the Woodland King said:


> Though I suppose if this is just a way of venting displeasure against Rings of Power for not being AS closely related as one would prefer


This was actually never problem (at least with me.. personally).I
think I am pretty liberal with lore being ignored when it needs be... but this was.. my dear God... even if you ignore lore completely, and watch show on it's own.. it's REALLY bad.

Wait.... do I force you to that opinion because I write this above?


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## Ent (Oct 28, 2022)

OK I'll try this this way, if I may please:
Let's go back to the original question of the post.

*" I wonder... why people keeps posting about this series, and what that has to do with Tolkien?"*

Answer: People keep posting about this series because they believe it DOES have to do with Tolkien. Several have said so. That's their opinion.

Now... following that original question... which has now been answered by several... we try to say "but... it has nothing to do with Tolkien so please remove everything about RoP."

Well... when we ask "I wonder why" and we get an answer: "We don't agree it's not related to Tolkien" then the original requester keeps saying "Oh no it's not related to Tolkien"...... we've moved well beyond just asking a question, expressing our opinion, and being done with it.

We're becoming 'insistent' that our view is other people's view. 

For example: when we say:

"It's because. it's not art. 
You can't make a White Fang adaptation, from fameous writter Jack London, and instead of wolf, put a puppe (small cute dog), and change the whole White Fang story (forget about all adventures with Indian tribe), and pretend you're an artist.

First of all, the statement is not equal to what's going on with RoP. They aren't throwing out everything about all the adventures etc. All that they're dealing with either did happen, or well could have happened - why? because Tolkien didn't fill in all the gaps.

Second however, you most certainly COULD take a White Fang adaptation, covering times the book and movie barely touch on, stick in a puppy, and make it about White Fang's youth. It would both be Based On White Fang, and it would include what may be known about White Fang's youth... or 'fill in the gaps'.

And it would certainly be "Art". 

The key is, if people's original opinions are to be respected, when we ask "I wonder why people keep posting about this when it has nothing to do with Tolkien", and they come back and say "we think it DOES have to do with Tolkien", but then we keep hearing 'no it doesn't..." the only reason for that can be "because I said it doesn't...!"

Thus... it SOUNDS like you're asking everyone to agree with your view. 
They said they don't... so they keep posting.
And so do those who are like you, who don't think it's much of Tolkien at all. 
So people post about it because they have things to say about it. 

period.
And there it is... let's put a period in this particular Thread question, and move on. 
Thanks much.


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## d4rk3lf (Oct 28, 2022)

The Ent said:


> *" I wonder... why people keeps posting about this series, and what that has to do with Tolkien?"*
> 
> Answer: People keep posting about this series because they believe it DOES have to do with Tolkien. Several have said so. That's their opinion.


So, you keep insisting I said it seriously? 
You don't see sarcasm in my words? 

About the rest of your text... haven't read it yet.. will in the morning....


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## Rivendell_librarian (Oct 28, 2022)

It's not beyond the realms of possibility that some will join this, or other Tolkien forums, because they watched the _Rings of Power_. They may want to read the books and discuss what they discover. There's also the added dimension of the moving image with actors portraying the characters and scenes constructed to portray Middle Earth. Of course, there are various book illustrators and artists which are also subjects for discussion.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 28, 2022)

There's certainly been an uptick in new memberships, as well as numbers of members online, as the series drew closer.


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## Sons of the Woodland King (Oct 28, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> It's because. it's not art.
> You can't make a White Fang adaptation, from fameous writter Jack London, and instead of wolf, put a puppe (small cute dog), and change the whole White Fang story (forget about all adventures with Indian tribe), and pretend you're an artist.
> 
> 
> ...


I write Lord of the Rings fanfiction, which I am fully aware is scorned by many "purists" BUT also loved by more "casual" fans. I would not be at all surprised if you would reject my writings as "not art", and that's okay. If I didn't have the emotional capacity to accept the fact that my style would be hated by some or even many, then I should have given the hobby up long ago. Fortunately, I've found just enough acceptance and appreciation of my writing to keep me going for about twenty years now.

And nope! I don't feel forced to share your opinion, just as I don't expect anything I say will convince you to share mine. It's all good! (At least from my end.)


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 28, 2022)

We _do _have a forum where you can post fanfic, you know. 

That's a hint, in case you didn't get it. 😉


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## Sons of the Woodland King (Oct 29, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> We _do _have a forum where you can post fanfic, you know.
> 
> That's a hint, in case you didn't get it. 😉


You honor me with your hint, kind sir. 

Give me another 20 years, and perhaps I can come up with something worthy of sharing with you fine people. 🤣


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Oct 29, 2022)

Or....

You could write it anyway, and just realize that your TTF Family won't judge! 

Just... think about it. I promise you, you are your worst critic.


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## Ent (Oct 29, 2022)

Sons of the Woodland King said:


> something worthy of sharing with you fine people.


My dear 'Sons of....' - not to derail this thread or something...BUT - I'd just like to toss in my wee voice in encouragement.

Many here are 'writers' of various sorts - scaring ourselves (or at least unnerving ourselves) by sticking stuff out there for others to read, review, enjoy, and sometimes even ask questions about as new thoughts spring forward for us.

Elbereth for example is one among several writers of poetry here, working in the more fluid, contemporary style that flows, honoring "thought with form" and providing a flowing silver stream of thought and story for us.

I could never match her skill and style in this form of poetic expression - though her work inspires me to try.

I write poetry too, but in the more classic style focused on meter and rhyme over flow of thought (though if done well it can have its own style of flow), and requires painful adjustment of words to keep the chosen meter and rhyme 'in line'. The style cannot produce nearly the beauty, though it can be meaningful. I'm not very good at it, but I've stuck a few up here and there (though not for awhile.)

Nienna's work comes to mind as well...in the style of Elbereth's and as impressive. And there have been others.

We also have some essayists.

I've even connected with a couple book writers here, one who has finished a book and one who is now working through one, that I've been blessed to help with a bit of editing. (If I have any real writing strength it is likely in editing more than creativity.)

So not to put any 'undue pressure' on you here - but I think I speak for all. We'd much rather be blessed by your works than bereft of your thoughts, talents and skills.

"as...one that has...seen that which is hidden, your sight is grown keener. You have perceived my thought more clearly than many that are accounted wise." (Galadriel).

Our sight cannot grow keener, nor can we perceive your thought more clearly, until we can see that which is hidden.

(I know, I know.. not an exact parallel... but hey, give an Ent a break..!) 😁

So... 'thwack'. Into your court. 
The very nature of FanFic is that it is "off-canon" by choice and decision. If that rankles some, the problem is theirs, not the authors. 

The choice is entirely yours. But know we would consider ourselves blessed...and if someone is scornful or antagonistic, I think I would not be alone in detaching a stout branch or two to provide a bit of a stout lashing..! (Well, for others it may not be branches, but that's the picture of it.)


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## Erestor Arcamen (Oct 29, 2022)

Sons of the Woodland King said:


> You honor me with your hint, kind sir.
> 
> Give me another 20 years, and perhaps I can come up with something worthy of sharing with you fine people. 🤣


I'll also chime in and say TTF has a large history of people posting fan fiction stories. You're more than welcome to share and we'd love to read it. Just one example is Elora and her writing, Legacy. It has 500+ posts to the story and was amazing. @Nienna Qalme-Tári and @Elbereth Vala Varda have an amazing RP going as well. I'm sure that we would be blessed for you to share your talents with us too.


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## Elthir (Oct 29, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> There's certainly been an uptick in new memberships,



I had an uptick last year. 

It really dug in, but I scratched it out. Eventually.


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## Sons of the Woodland King (Oct 29, 2022)

This is taking the thread off topic again, but to close the issue:

@The Ent @Erestor Arcamen @Elbereth Vala Varda @Squint-eyed Southerner--thank you so much for the kind encouragement. I honestly did not come to this forum looking for a place to share my fics; I really came here sniffing for research like a truffle pig. I already have other venues where I'm content to share them with readers seeking the kind of content I have to offer (i.e. mainstream consumers, more likely to have seen the films first like myself). I'll admit, in the time I've been on this site, I've dismissed the idea of posting my fics on TTF because it just seemed different in style and tone compared to the other works I saw. I'm embarrassingly bad at poetry, and lean more to the vernacular. I REALLY enjoy creating new concepts, characters, and events (aka headcanons) to fill in the gaps in official canon. Ergo, I don't think my writings will appeal at all to Tolkien scholars or simply people who hated the movies. 

However, based on your comments and the sample @Erestor Arcamen linked to, maybe I judged the overall TTF culture wrongly, so I will reconsider. I'm not trying to play hard to get, I swear, but maybe when I feel comfortable, stuff will just pop up quietly in The Red Book and I'll leave it at that. 

Thank you again for your kind words! Now we can close the door on this detour in topic!


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## Will Whitfoot (Oct 29, 2022)

If I may suggest that the "Tolkien World" is not a fixed and immovable entity like a rock, but rather a turbulent "sea" simply contained within the fixed confines of a rocky "shoreline" that we call "canon". I have been reading in "BEREN AND LUTHIEN" and find it fascinating that in various retellings of the tale that The Professor's son Christopher found and compiled for the volume, the tale is told differently, with different names, different events, and even different endings. In one telling, Melko's chief lieutenant is Thu, king of Cats, and his downfall at the teeth and paws of Huan the Hound led to the diminution of all cats and their subjugation before dogs. In another telling Melkor, (now Morgoth) his chief lieutenant is Sauron and is of humanoid form and more sophisticated in his evil machinations. In some of the tales Beren dies, in some he lives, in others he dies but Luthien entreats with the Valar to bring him back to life. There is no one fixed version of the tale, and all are authored by the Professor. Therefore, for any of us merest mortals to debate or even opine about the depth and breadth of what is all part of this world is as foolish as a fish complaining that the vastness of the sea precludes it from ever venturing to every single place therein. I say this: Swim in your own favorite part, if that is all you can (or wish to) see, but leave others to sample the rich variety of all this wondrous sea has to offer.


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## Sons of the Woodland King (Oct 29, 2022)

Will Whitfoot said:


> If I may suggest that the "Tolkien World" is not a fixed and immovable entity like a rock, but rather a turbulent "sea" simply contained within the fixed confines of a rocky "shoreline" that we call "canon". I have been reading in "BEREN AND LUTHIEN" and find it fascinating that in various retellings of the tale that The Professor's son Christopher found and compiled for the volume, the tale is told differently, with different names, different events, and even different endings. In one telling, Melko's chief lieutenant is Thu, king of Cats, and his downfall at the teeth and paws of Huan the Hound led to the diminution of all cats and their subjugation before dogs. In another telling Melkor, (now Morgoth) his chief lieutenant is Sauron and is of humanoid form and more sophisticated in his evil machinations. In some of the tales Beren dies, in some he lives, in others he dies but Luthien entreats with the Valar to bring him back to life. There is no one fixed version of the tale, and all are authored by the Professor. Therefore, for any of us merest mortals to debate or even opine about the depth and breadth of what is all part of this world is as foolish as a fish complaining that the vastness of the sea precludes it from ever venturing to every single place therein. I say this: Swim in your own favorite part, if that is all you can (or wish to) see, but leave others to sample the rich variety of all this wondrous sea has to offer.


THIS. YES. Thank you. That is all I have to add, so well worded is your wisdom. 😅


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 29, 2022)

Will Whitfoot said:


> If I may suggest that the "Tolkien World" is not a fixed and immovable entity like a rock, but rather a turbulent "sea" simply contained within the fixed confines of a rocky "shoreline" that we call "canon". I have been reading in "BEREN AND LUTHIEN" and find it fascinating that in various retellings of the tale that The Professor's son Christopher found and compiled for the volume, the tale is told differently, with different names, different events, and even different endings. In one telling, Melko's chief lieutenant is Thu, king of Cats, and his downfall at the teeth and paws of Huan the Hound led to the diminution of all cats and their subjugation before dogs. In another telling Melkor, (now Morgoth) his chief lieutenant is Sauron and is of humanoid form and more sophisticated in his evil machinations. In some of the tales Beren dies, in some he lives, in others he dies but Luthien entreats with the Valar to bring him back to life. There is no one fixed version of the tale, and all are authored by the Professor. Therefore, for any of us merest mortals to debate or even opine about the depth and breadth of what is all part of this world is as foolish as a fish complaining that the vastness of the sea precludes it from ever venturing to every single place therein. I say this: Swim in your own favorite part, if that is all you can (or wish to) see, but leave others to sample the rich variety of all this wondrous sea has to offer.


If it was staying in the realm of what Tolkien wrote, no matter the version, it'd be different.


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## Ent (Oct 29, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> If it was staying in the realm of what Tolkien wrote, no matter the version, it'd be different.


For you. Not for those who enjoy it either way.
That's the point people who don't care they make it uncomfortable for others to share their fanfic work or enjoyments don't seem to "get", or even care about,
The fact that the constant negativity against anybody who sees things differently, so shuts them down from sharing or even makes them depart the forum, just doesn't seem to matter.

You see the little phrase "it would be different"? You know who it would be different for? For you. Not for them.
OPINION.

Yet the way things are said constantly points the finger at others and says "there must be something wrong with you if you think things are OK with this show."

Sigh...
I do not think there's a pathway into the minds that stay on the track of "this is just wrong" rather than "For myself, this is just wrong but if others are enjoying it, bless it, and bless them."

_Every word we speak should first be passed through a filter of grace.
..........................Then it should be delivered with care. ................................................... _The Ent.


.


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## Starbrow (Oct 29, 2022)

> Look people... help me understand...
> What I still don't get is... is sarcasm forbidden in this forum?


@d4rk3lf, I realize now that you were trying to be sarcastic. However, that is not how I perceived it when I first read your comments. Sarcasm is tricky to get across in written work when you don't have the tone of voice to help you understand the author's viewpoint.


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 29, 2022)

The Ent said:


> That's the point people who don't care they make it uncomfortable for others to share their fanfic work or enjoyments don't seem to "get", or even care about,


Why would criticizing RoP make it uncomfortable for people to share their fanfics? They're entirely unrelated.


The Ent said:


> The fact that the constant negativity against anybody who sees things differently, so shuts them down from sharing or even makes them depart the forum, just doesn't seem to matter.


Opposing view points often do that. If you find a place is filled with voices that outnumber your own, in an opposing viewpoint, you'll likely leave (positive or negative). I don't hang around OneRing.net for that reason.


The Ent said:


> You see the little phrase "it would be different"? You know who it would be different for? For you. Not for them.
> OPINION.


Partially. I could bring up a logical argument (see the Ship of Theseus)


The Ent said:


> Yet the way things are said constantly points the finger at others and says "there must be something wrong with you if you think things are OK with this show."


I've not seen that much here. In my experience, the situations are reversed (again, not here): "There's something wrong with you if you don't like this show. You're racist or sexist."


The Ent said:


> Sigh...
> I do not think there's a pathway into the minds that stay on the track of "this is just wrong" rather than "For myself, this is just wrong but if others are enjoying it, bless it, and bless them."


No man is an island, however. Support for (perceived) substandard material leads to the production of more (perceived) substandard material. That's the frustration at least.


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## Ent (Oct 29, 2022)

As I said. There is no pathway in. The refusal to understand how behaviors and actions produce unerring results builds a barrior that cannot be pierced I fear.


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## Sons of the Woodland King (Oct 29, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> Why would criticizing RoP make it uncomfortable for people to share their fanfics? They're entirely unrelated.


I can answer this one! 

Something about reading the critics on TTF vehemently eviscerate and pick apart the details of RoP and even the Peter Jackson movies c_ould_ make a fanfiction writer wary about sharing their work here. 

Majority of fanfics take a good amount of liberties with tweaking canon, which is probably really irritating to said canon defenders. I can understand this! Now, some fanfic writers might embrace taking the heat from critics as a chance to improve their craft. Others (like myself) do it for pleasure; it's a hobby I enjoy but also place a lot of my limited free time on. I prefer to offer it to people who are likely to enjoy it as it is, and avoid offering it up as critic fodder. 

Now... would the stern RoP/PJ movie critics not even bother reading or addressing posted fanfic here? Perhaps. Hopefully it's out of their interest! But it could still make newcomers think twice about sharing. 

TLDR: If the forum looks like the majority of active members greatly frown upon Tolkien's canon being "disrespected" and are very vocal about their displeasure, it will not appear to be an very welcoming place for fanfiction writers to post their works in.


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 29, 2022)

Sons of the Woodland King said:


> Something about reading the critics on TTF vehemently eviscerate and pick apart the details of RoP and even the Peter Jackson movies c_ould_ make a fanfiction writer wary about sharing their work here.


Hm. It hasn't made me apprehensive either here, with Tolkien, or elsewhere, with Star Wars. I suppose it's a feeling I simply don't understand.


Sons of the Woodland King said:


> Majority of fanfics take a good amount of liberties with tweaking canon, which is probably really irritating to said canon defenders. I can understand this!


To me, personal fanfic is very different than a show trying to present itself as...legitimate (not the best term but a more accurate word isn't coming to mind). People, in my experience, go into reading fanfics with entirely different expectations of accuracy and validity to canon.


Sons of the Woodland King said:


> Now, some fanfic writers might embrace taking the heat from critics as a chance to improve their craft. Others (like myself) do it for pleasure; it's a hobby I enjoy but also place a lot of my limited free time on. I prefer to offer it to people who are likely to enjoy it as it is, and avoid offering it up as critic fodder.


I also do it for enjoyment, but I suppose a year of creative writing classes and years of collegiate level scholarship have taught me to not take critique personally. I've also spent most of my teenage years on Star Wars RPG message boards and you pick up how to formulate arguments to defend your position fast as you're regularly interacting with skilled rhetoricians.


Sons of the Woodland King said:


> Now... would the stern RoP/PJ movie critics not even bother reading or addressing posted fanfic here? Perhaps.


My experience is a decided lack of engagement at all. I'd take even aggressive interaction than none at all.

I suppose it all comes down to differing personalities, values, and experiences. I will attempt to restrict my negative comments to personal discussions with others in PMs, or threads for that specific purpose.


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## Ent (Oct 29, 2022)

Sons of the Woodland King said:


> , it will not appear to be an very welcoming place for fanfiction writers to post their works in.



And while this may be very fine with the few purists who insist on continuing to express things in an intolerant way, it is NOT the purpose or the direction of TTF.
This forum is open to all, and we hope to have people share things in a way that expresses their opinion without seeming denigrating toward the work or opinions of others.



ZehnWaters said:


> Why would criticizing RoP make it uncomfortable for people to share their fanfics? They're entirely unrelated


Surely you jest with this statement. They are absolutely directly connected. If a person is critical of one piece of Fanfic because it doesn't duplicate the original, why would anyone feel there would be any different attitude toward any other piece of Fanfic? What would cause the sudden change in character? It's very hard for a leopard to change its spots. 

Perhaps this is the core within which, with some serious reflection and thinking, people can see the power and impact of their words and the results, and begin to make a change that retains the integrity of their own posture and viewpoint, without being destructive to those of others. Finesse. Refinement. Empathy and care. Great attributes to foster and expand.


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## Ent (Oct 29, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> I suppose it all comes down to differing personalities, values, and experiences. I will attempt to restrict my negative comments to personal discussions with others in PMs, or threads for that specific purpose.



I don't know that this is what's needed. There's nothing wrong with sharing your thoughts.

But review the post you just made and see how you characterize yourself - that is, the number of "I", "me", "my", etc. statements you make.
it's good to know who you are.
It's good too, to understand 'the other' and how they tick.
This what helps us turn our conversation slightly differently. Saying the same thing, but having as much or more consideration for the receiver, as we do care for our on need to express our viewpoint. 

Again empathy, compassion, understanding.

There is nothing that can't be discussed. But done incorrectly there is nothing that SHOULD be discussed.

Were it me, knowing some people are being encouraged to withhold things would be enough to be asking myself a great number of questions about how I might be contributing to that undesirable circumstance,

I'll shut up now. I'm way overboard on expressing on this particular point.
We'll see if there's a roadway here or not.


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 30, 2022)

The Ent said:


> behaviors and actions produce unerring results


In my experience they don't produce unerring results. I have been the one defending an unpopular show (or shows) before. It did not drive me away from the message boards (the above mentioned Star Wars RPG message boards), nor prevent me from sharing my stories and asking for feedback.


The Ent said:


> Surely you jest with this statement. They are absolutely directly connected. If a person is critical of one piece of Fanfic because it doesnt duplicate the origina., why would anyone feel there would be any different attitude toward any other piece of Fanfic? What would cause the sudden change in character? It's very hard for a leopard to change its spots.


RoP doesn't present itself as FanFic, though. That's the difference, as I stated above:
"To me, personal fanfic is very different than a show trying to present itself as...legitimate (not the best term but a more accurate word isn't coming to mind). People, in my experience, go into reading fanfics with entirely different expectations of accuracy and validity to canon."


The Ent said:


> Perhaps this is the core within which, with some serious reflection and thinking, people can see the power and impact of their words and the results, and begin to make a change that retains the integrity of their own posture and viewpoint, without being destructive to those of others. Finesse. Refinement. Empaty and care. Great attributes to foster and expand.


I suppose my misunderstanding was around the phrase "The fact that the constant negativity against anybody who sees things differently..." It seemed, to me, to be speaking about responding to discussions of the show, by those who support it, with negativity about the show itself, not personal attacks against people themselves (something I HAVE experienced on these boards, in response to my criticism of RoP).


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 30, 2022)

The Ent said:


> that is, the number of "I", "me", "my", etc. statements you make.


This comes from being told that "I', "me", "my" statements are preferable as "you", "your" statements come across as accusatory, whereas the personal statements indicate you are speaking from your own experience and perspective. Perhaps this is what you're asking of me to assess.


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## Ugluk (Oct 30, 2022)

This does not in anyway mean that that anything goes


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## Ent (Oct 30, 2022)

I know we've discussed this before ZehnWaters and you disagree, but I'll try this one more time.

You day "RoP does not present itself as FanFic." That is your opinion. Yet you continue to state it as fact. Thus, from that premise you justify a level of antagonism against it. That is 'your right' i suppose.

Yet RoP does hold itself forth as FanFic. It says it's 'based on information from LoTR and the Appendices. And creating new characters and filling in the gaps as it sees fit to tell a story." 

"based on' is the very definition of FanFic. 

Here's another..Websters.
Fan Fiction: fiction written by a fan of, and featuring characters from, a particular TV series, movie, etc.

That's it. 
So RoP holds itself forth as presenting Fan Fiction though it does not use the word, and RoP fits the definition of Fan Fiction in every way.

So for me it's clearly Fan Fiction.

Your premise and my premise do not coincide, and therein lies the 'difference of our opinion.'

But we COULD discuss it without being so 'biting' about saying "it has to hold to canon or....' etc. 

Just say "I don't like it mostly because I feel it isn't FanFic so should hold to Canon more." 

There it is...!! Opinion expressed. People have received. Move on and be done with it. 

It doesn't need to be reiterated every time someone else talks about RoP. That's not expressing opinion. And certainly isn't being done in the right way. it's just badgering on a particular opinion. 

You aren't even watching the shows as I understand it. So are you discussing RoP or preaching a platform? If a platform, it's not a platform consistent with TTFs desire to be a welcoming place. 

So let those who are, and who want to talk about it, talk about it. We don't need any "Debbie Downers" or "Norman Negatives" chiming in every time someone wants to share their views or enjoyment of the thing.

I've done and said as much as I can here and way more than I should. 
Again, no more from me on this thread.
If what I'm trying to say isn't understood I just can't help that.


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## Ealdwyn (Oct 30, 2022)

The Ent said:


> That's it.
> So RoP holds itself forth as presenting Fan Fiction though it does not use the word, and RoP fits the definition of Fan Fiction in every way.
> 
> So for me it's clearly Fan Fiction.


I agree to a certain degree. 
But the fact remains that writers of fanfiction aren't generally so arrogant as to claim that they can write the book that Tolkien didn't write and, what's more, that they can do it better - something that the RoP showrunners famously claimed they could do.


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 30, 2022)

The Ent said:


> I know we've discussed this before ZehnWaters and you disagree, but I'll try this one more time.
> 
> You day "RoP does not present itself as FanFic." That is your opinion. Yet you continue to state it as fact. Thus, from that premise you justify a level of antagonism against it. That is 'your right' i suppose.
> 
> Yet RoP does hold itself forth as FanFic. It says it's 'based on information from LoTR and the Appendices. And creating new characters and filling in the gaps as it sees fit to tell a story."


Being derived from something doesn't inherently make it fan fiction.


The Ent said:


> "based on' is the very definition of FanFic.
> 
> Here's another..Websters.
> Fan Fiction: fiction written by a fan of, and featuring characters from, a particular TV series, movie, etc.


By this definition, any sequel written by an author who is a fan of their own work is fan fiction. That makes The Lord of the Rings a fan fiction.


The Ent said:


> But we COULD discuss it without being so 'biting' about saying "it has to hold to canon or....' etc.


I've never made that assertion. I clearly like the Peter Jackson films, even The Hobbit.


The Ent said:


> It doesn't need to be reiterated every time someone else talks about RoP. That's not expressing opinion. And certainly isn't being done in the right way. it's just badgering on a particular opinion.


So conform or else be quiet? How is that not forcing one's opinion on others? Is that not the same as badgering people and then they quit talking? Except the badgers have never asked for conformity, nor have they said you need to be quiet. They just disagree.


The Ent said:


> You aren't even watching the shows as I understand it. So are you discussing RoP or preaching a platform? If a platform, it's not a platform consistent with TTFs desire to be a welcoming place.


1. One need not see a show to know what happens in it.
2. One need not see a show to discuss it and its impact on the broader world.


The Ent said:


> So let those who are, and who want to talk about it, talk about it. We don't need any "Debbie Downers" or "Norman Negatives" chiming in every time someone wants to share their views or enjoyment of the thing.


I assume you'll be jumping in whenever someone expresses a dislike of the Jackson films then?


The Ent said:


> I've done and said as much as I can here and way more than I should.
> Again, no more from me on this thread.
> If what I'm trying to say isn't understood I just can't help that.


What you said was, everyone who expresses their dislike of the show is lacking in empathy (i.e. a psychopath). Meanwhile all they've done is say others shouldn't like a show. Tell me, which accusation ("opinion") is more likely to drive people away?


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## Elthir (Oct 30, 2022)

Will Whitfoot said:


> ( . . .) There is no one fixed version of the tale, and all are authored by the Professor.



I'd just add that while it's admittedly relatively brief, we also have a Tolkien-published _A Knife In The Dark_ version of Beren and Luthien, for example.

And for the thread in general, I see no reason to drag *badgers *into this.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 30, 2022)

Or vice versa.


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## Ealdwyn (Oct 30, 2022)




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## ZehnWaters (Oct 30, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Or vice versa.
> View attachment 16816





Elthir said:


> I'd just add that while it's admittedly relatively brief, we also have a Tolkien-published _A Knife In The Dark_ version of Beren and Luthien, for example.
> 
> And for the thread in general, I see no reason to drag *badgers *into this.


I do love our Hufflepuffs.


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## Elthir (Oct 30, 2022)

Well, if we're going to *celebrate* badgers, then by all means, drag 'em in.


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## ElynAltariel (Dec 3, 2022)

I totally agree with you. The money-greedy Amazon creates own charakteres and a own story, and call it "Tolkiens Middle Earth"; although it has nothing to do with Tolkiens Middle Earth. Rings of Power dont belong into the Tolkien-fandom, because it has nothing to do with Tolkiens books or Peter Jacksons movies. Rings of Power is not worth the attention of Tolkienfans.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Dec 3, 2022)

Well luckily, we don't censor here so people can talk about it and people who don't want to talk about it are free to move on and discuss what interests them.


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## ElynAltariel (Dec 3, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> Well luckily, we don't censor here so people can talk about it and people who don't want to talk about it are free to move on and discuss what interests them.


Well, if you dont censor here, it is my good right, to write here, how much i dislike ROP. This serie is really an insult for every Tolkienfan and for Tolkien himself. It is a pitty, that Tolkiens descendants didnt forbid Amazon to do that.


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## Sons of the Woodland King (Dec 5, 2022)

Hopping back on here (sorry to interrupt any rants) to offer this point of view on RoP, from someone who is kind of in the middle on the subject. I also hang out in social media sites where there are lots of people who LOVE the show. Please try not to have violent reactions to this, but some people actually like warrior Galadriel, like the "romance" between her and "Sauron", like the short-haired Elrond and dark-skinned Arondir and beardless dwarf-women, and even old-man Celebrimbor (*shudder*). They're drawing fanart, writing fanfiction, falling in adoration of the actors, engaging with fellow fans, and still make time to defend themselves against those who lambast them for their hobbies. They're happy in their little newfound Tolkien world.

And you know what? I'm happy for them. I even try to engage with them positively regarding the few things I liked about RoP, because I personally consider them fellow Tolkien fans and would love to make them feel welcomed.

Perhaps we shouldn't judge them for not reading the books or being well-versed in canon. They're younger consumers who maybe have never been introduced to LOTR before (not everyone gets the books as required school reading or are simply not readers...plenty of reasons for this) but saw something in RoP that sparked joy and interest. Whether they eventually decide to take their interest further and read the books or watch the PJ movies, is up to them.

Some might not want to go beyond RoP, when they see how some self-proclaimed "real" Tolkien fans behave, though. Which is sad.

Hate RoP or not, you can't deny it is introducing a new generation to Middle-earth and keeping the name of Tolkien in the news and the forefront of mass media. After a 15-year lapse, I went back to writing LOTR fanfic because of it, and then discovered this wonderful site. From my understanding, RoP even breathed fresh activity back here to TF.

Without RoP, there's nothing to go head-to-head against Game of Thrones in mainstream fantasy at the moment. I don't want my kids growing up without Tolkien existing in some mass media form, even in an imperfect iteration.

Just a humble opinion from someone who is friends with RoP lovers. I'll put my soap box away now. 😬🤣


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## Olorgando (Dec 5, 2022)

Sons of the Woodland King said:


> Whether they eventually decide to take their interest further and read the books ...


I have some sympathy for your leniency with youngsters (though there may be enough "oldsters" in this group, too) whose first exposure to anything involving the name "Tolkien" or the concept "Middle-earth" may come from RoP.
But if they do not "take their interest further and read the books", but still believe they can competently discuss things "Tolkien" or "Middle-earth", then my answer is an ultimately savage *NO!*

For many books whose maximum copyright protection has (long) expired, say in Russia Tolstoy, Dostoyevsky, and others, in Germany Goethe and Schiller (a.o.), in France Balzac and Dumas (a.o.), in Spain Cervantes (a.o.), in England Shakespeare (a.o.) ...
There have been many "treatments" by later ... directors, of stage and film (and TV) that have claimed to have "modernized" and thus made more "relevant" (one of the words of the English language that is near the bottom of the pit of uselessness) these writings. JRRT did concede that people could find "applicability" in his works, and always in contrast to what he considered (sloppy) allegory. Hollywood's incompetence (at least above the level of what they considered "B"-movies - like "Casablanca"???) is so drastic, and unfortunately pervasive in "The West", that they rarely even rise to the pathetic level of sloppy allegory - at Hollywood's *best*. I'll leave it to those who have afflicted themselves with RoP to judge how far below that "best" the series belongs.


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## Sons of the Woodland King (Dec 5, 2022)

Alice said:


> You don't get the point why many people hates it. Not because it doesn't follow canon perfectly (it's just impossible).
> It's not problem of being "imperfect".
> And it's not problem of kids not reading the original book.
> Many didn't do that 20 years ago and what, tolkienism still survived.
> ...


For what it's worth, you and I probably have more things in agreement regarding RoP than I do with the fans. I found more things to dislike about RoP than like, including the entire list I enumerated in my opening paragraph. (Old Man Celebrimbor--*ugh-sigh-WHY*) I've done my fair share of ranting against RoP on here, but I've tried to keep it more humorous and light-hearted so as not to make people with opposing viewpoints feel alienated. I don't know. Maybe I'm just soft.

I also support the right of people who hate RoP to voice their opinions here. We do need that outlet to vent our grievances, because we love Tolkien's work and we want to defend the things we love when we believe they've been wronged. I just think a balance just needs to happen because I don't want to support a toxic environment that cuts off the potential fans Tolkien can gain from all this. I want younger fans to mature in their love and understanding of Tolkien (and they will; I certainly did), and that might not happen if they get crushed by unpleasant interactions.

I'm new to the site, but I honestly haven't seen the admins stopping anyone from voicing their opinions, whichever side they're on. But it IS their responsibility to adhere to the rules they set up regarding acceptable posts and behavior from members. I have seen fan sites without proper admin management, and it is brutal out there.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Dec 5, 2022)

That -- like so much of what has appeared in this thread-- is a matter of opinion.

Despite what people may say about any of the adaptations, no one set out to "destroy" Tolkien.


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## Olorgando (Dec 5, 2022)

Your English is much too good to make such a ludicrous claim that RoP is being *defended* here on TTF! Or you have ignored the countless posts that have been critical of it - but just not up to the level of ravings from a certain political spectrum. Politics (and religion) weren't banned from the three JRRT forums I've been a member of (at the earliest November 2013), from the beginning of each forum dating to about 2001 or 2002. These topics were banned, again in each forum, after the rantings that had practically nothing to do with JRRT poisoned too many threads. Read the current forum rules, which you should be easily capable of.


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## d4rk3lf (Dec 5, 2022)

Alice said:


> Soviet LOTR was imperfect but it surprisingly exists.


Hey! 
That was perfect!


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## Sons of the Woodland King (Dec 5, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> I have some sympathy for your leniency with youngsters (though there may be enough "oldsters" in this group, too) whose first exposure to anything involving the name "Tolkien" or the concept "Middle-earth" may come from RoP.
> But if they do not "take their interest further and read the books", but still believe they can competently discuss things "Tolkien" or "Middle-earth", then my answer is an ultimately savage *NO!*


Point taken, and I think I agree with you on this! I don't think people should claim to be Tolkien devotees, when they've never bothered to read a single book of his. (To be fair, I think RoP fans who haven't read the books are self-aware and make no drastic claims.) I think people still need to acknowledge and learn the difference between book aka "real" canon and movie aka "Hollywood" canon. That's the most basic way Tolkien's work can be respected.

I guess the next question is, do we allow people who have a casual interest to call themselves fans? Like, is it an all or nothing sort of deal? What's the cut-off? Because I wonder now if I'm going to pass standards. 😅🤣 For certain, I cannot be called a Tolkien expert and I doubt I will ever be. I've read the Hobbit, the trilogy, and the Silmarillion, but that's all. I own a couple of other works and plan to buy more, but I am a _*very *_slow reader. I write much more often than I read. I have many other fandoms that I've spent time on over the last decade or so, and LOTR/Tolkien just came back around this season (again, thanks to RoP!). Maybe by next year, I'll switch back to something else... who knows. Does that make me a fake fan (honest question)? I sheepishly admit I've watched all the PJ films many more times than I've read the books. (insert nervous laugh) But I hope the important thing is I've grown since starting with the PJ films, and I continue to try my best.

I'm gonna go do something useful now. I think I've just missed being on here. 🤣


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Dec 5, 2022)

Sons of the Woodland King said:


> Maybe by next year, I'll switch back to something else...


Nooooo! 😳


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## Olorgando (Dec 5, 2022)

Sons of the Woodland King said:


> I guess the next question is, do we allow people who have a casual interest to call themselves fans?
> ...
> I've read the Hobbit, the trilogy, and the Silmarillion, but that's all.


Erm ... the term "fan" derives from "fanatic" ... look at what football (the kind that is being ridiculously being played as a "World Cup" in Quatar currently) fans have been up to for several decades. Granted, these hooligans seem to care less about what actually happens on the playing field, and more about having a brawl before or after the game So "casual interest" and "fan" might be incompatible ... and never mind nerd ... but we nerds don't bat each other around the head with single-volume editions of LoTR!

Again, *you* have read the Big Three - JRRT's TH and LoTR, and Christopher's edited The Sil. The source.

Yes, those who like PJ's films, both his LoTR trilogy and his TH trilogy, may call themselves fans - of PJ's M-e adaptations (many may actually be fans of both the films and the books, as has been posted often enough here on TTF). Yes, those who like Amazon's RoP so far may call themselves fans - of Amazon's "adaptation". Again, there may be fans of both (I think of a certain neo-Australian ...  )

But anyone having solely seen RoP, or PJ's TH, or PJ's LoTR, or Ralph Bakshi's incomplete film needing a sequel, or any other film versions of whatever, claiming from this basis to be knowledgeable about JRRT is simply ludicrous.


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## Aldarion (Dec 5, 2022)

Sons of the Woodland King said:


> Hate RoP or not, you can't deny it is introducing a new generation to Middle-earth and keeping the name of Tolkien in the news and the forefront of mass media. After a 15-year lapse, I went back to writing LOTR fanfic because of it, and then discovered this wonderful site. From my understanding, RoP even breathed fresh activity back here to TF.
> 
> Without RoP, there's nothing to go head-to-head against Game of Thrones in mainstream fantasy at the moment. I don't want my kids growing up without Tolkien existing in some mass media form, even in an imperfect iteration.


That is about the only good thing about it, but I would not agree that we need more, at any cost, or that more is automatically better. Some degree of respect for the source material is necessary; of which, RoP have none. In fact, much like the newest Star Trek and Star Wars, it seems that they were made by the people who _despise_ Tolkien and his work.

Speaking of Tolkien and adaptations:







Olorgando said:


> Erm ... the term "fan" derives from "fanatic"


Maybe. I have also seen it mentioned that it comes from word "fancy", as in, fan is "one who fancies".


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## Ent (Dec 5, 2022)

Aldarion said:


> Maybe. I have also seen it mentioned that it comes from word "fancy", as in, fan is "one who fancies".


Indeed. 
Fan: etymology:
"fan (n.2)
"*devotee*,"* 1889, *American English, originally of baseball enthusiasts, probably a shortening of fanatic, but it may be influenced by the fancy, a collective term for followers of a certain hobby or sport (especially boxing); see fancy (n.). There is *an isolated use* from 1682, but the modern word likely is a late 19c. formation. *Fan mail* attested from 1920, in a Hollywood context; *Fan club* attested by 1930.


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## Sons of the Woodland King (Dec 5, 2022)

Aldarion said:


> That is about the only good thing about it, but I would not agree that we need more, at any cost, or that more is automatically better. Some degree of respect for the source material is necessary; of which, RoP have none. In fact, much like the newest Star Trek and Star Wars, it seems that they were made by the people who _despise_ Tolkien and his work.
> 
> Speaking of Tolkien and adaptations:
> 
> ...


You make a good point, quality does still matter. It might not seem like it, but I do have _*some *_standards I'd like to be met, even though it probably is lower than that of most people here on TF. For example, the moment they start inserting sex and needless nudity anywhere there, I'm coming with a pitchfork and passing around torches. (I'm surprised they haven't attempted this so I wonder if it's explicitly stated that the Tolkien estate forbids R-rated content.) 

But the bar for "passable" is subjective, as has been said repeatedly in this thread. To me, RoP is bland, confusing/confused, and aimless, but ultimately both pretty (i.e., nice to look at--except for _you_, Celebrimbor (yes, I will beat this dead horse to the end)) and pretty harmless.


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## Aldarion (Dec 5, 2022)

Sons of the Woodland King said:


> You make a good point, quality does still matter. It might not seem like it, but I do have _*some *_standards I'd like to be met, even though it probably is lower than that of most people here on TF. For example, the moment they start inserting sex and needless nudity anywhere there, I'm coming with a pitchfork and passing around torches. (I'm surprised they haven't attempted this so I wonder if it's explicitly stated that the Tolkien estate forbids R-rated content.)
> 
> But the bar for "passable" is subjective, as has been said repeatedly in this thread. To me, RoP is bland, confusing/confused, and aimless, but ultimately both pretty (i.e., nice to look at--except for _you_, Celebrimbor (yes, I will beat this dead horse to the end)) and pretty harmless.


One of issues I have with Rings of Power is precisely this: it is _soulless_. I honestly do not think people who see only Rings of Power would become Tolkien fans, not most of them. I read Lord of the Rings first after seeing the LotR movies in cinema in 2003. But here is the point: these movies, for all their flaws, drew me in. I was 11 at the time, and I still remember how I cared so much that... I ended up basically dreaming about it. Already first scenes in FotR basically captured me, and I still remember the emotions I felt while watching the movie: interest and amazement during the prologue, fear during the Nazgul and later Mordor scenes, anxiety during the scenes in Henneth Amun (especially Gollum's scene in pool) and Cirith Ungol... and it was these _emotions_ that made me want to read the books and relive everything. So I ended up doing precisely that. At 11 years of age.

Had it been Rings of Power, however? They have no soul and bring forth no emotion. I cannot imagine anything in RoP would have made me feel so much emotion, and definitely not enough to basically beeline it to the library and pick up the book. I wouldn't have read Lord of the Rings because of the Rings of Power; I would have rather went to read Jurassic Park or something else with dinosaurs. After all, Rings of Power are just generic fantasy, and everything is made better with dinosaurs - especially when you are eleven.

And there are so many fantasy series out there that Rings of Power may well end up getting lost in the chaff. RoP has nothing that makes it stand out, beyond Tolkien's name. Which basically means the only people who would watch the series are those who are already, or close to being, Tolkien fans.


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## Ent (Dec 5, 2022)

Aldarion said:


> They have no soul and bring forth no emotion.


I do think this is my biggest problem with them as well. 
Pretty scenery, sometimes a bit implausible but 'pretty' anyway... costuming questionable... circumstances and events often implausible as well... 

Other than that, there are many things out there that harbor far more soul and capture/deliver far more emotion.

So the scales overall tip negatively for me regarding it, which is why I would put it on again just as 'background stuff' when I didn't want anything to take my attention from what I'm doing at the moment. (Which is most of the time... though there are other 'background shows' I put on even before I put on an RoP.)

ADDED NOTE: Anyone noting I didn't speak to the 'characters', 'actors', etc. above need not ask why. A wee bit of thought will suffice.


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## Sons of the Woodland King (Dec 5, 2022)

Aldarion said:


> One of issues I have with Rings of Power is precisely this: it is _soulless_. I honestly do not think people who see only Rings of Power would become Tolkien fans, not most of them. I read Lord of the Rings first after seeing the LotR movies in cinema in 2003. But here is the point: these movies, for all their flaws, drew me in. I was 11 at the time, and I still remember how I cared so much that... I ended up basically dreaming about it. Already first scenes in FotR basically captured me, and I still remember the emotions I felt while watching the movie: interest and amazement during the prologue, fear during the Nazgul and later Mordor scenes, anxiety during the scenes in Henneth Amun (especially Gollum's scene in pool) and Cirith Ungol... and it was these _emotions_ that made me want to read the books and relive everything. So I ended up doing precisely that. At 11 years of age.
> 
> Had it been Rings of Power, however? They have no soul and bring forth no emotion. I cannot imagine anything in RoP would have made me feel so much emotion, and definitely not enough to basically beeline it to the library and pick up the book. I wouldn't have read Lord of the Rings because of the Rings of Power; I would have rather went to read Jurassic Park or something else with dinosaurs. After all, Rings of Power are just generic fantasy, and everything is made better with dinosaurs - especially when you are eleven.
> 
> And there are so many fantasy series out there that Rings of Power may well end up getting lost in the chaff. RoP has nothing that makes it stand out, beyond Tolkien's name. Which basically means the only people who would watch the series are those who are already, or close to being, Tolkien fans.


You know what.... I cannot argue with anything you said here. This was beautifully stated and describes almost exactly how I feel about the PJ movies too. (I watched those movies before reading the books as well--high five!)

I felt my enthusiasm wilt as I progressed (actually plodded) through the RoP episodes because you're right--soulless is a great word to describe it. I wasn't really moved by anything. I was barely even thrilled by any of the fight scenes, and usually I'm a sucker for a good sword fight. My tears are also cheap, and I didn't cry over anything at ALL in RoP. The PJ trilogies (yep--the Hobbit too) still make my eyes well up in certain scenes, no matter how many times I've re-watched them. 

Oh, I did love the traveling song that the Harfoot Poppy sang though. I did actually feel a bit of something during that scene. 

On the other hand, I've seen and interacted with viewers who _were _moved by something they watched in the show and thus became passionate fans of certain characters/events/concepts. However, I haven't tried to interrogate them about their canon knowledge to gauge their level of authenticity as Tolkien fans. All I can hope is that at least some of the "newcomers", in their quest to satiate their appetites before the next season arrives, picks up a book and takes off from there. 

I would quote that line short-haired Elrond said about "hope" in the RoP finale, but I think I've been enough of an instigator for one day. Tee-hee.


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## Sons of the Woodland King (Dec 5, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Nooooo! 😳


See, this is why new and fresh content/adaptations need to be released every so often. For people like me who have the attention span of a golden retriever.


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## Aldarion (Dec 5, 2022)

Sons of the Woodland King said:


> I felt my enthusiasm wilt as I progressed (actually plodded) through the RoP episodes because you're right--soulless is a great word to describe it. I wasn't really moved by anything. I was barely even thrilled by any of the fight scenes, and usually I'm a sucker for a good sword fight. My tears are also cheap, and I didn't cry over anything at ALL in RoP. The PJ trilogies (yep--the Hobbit too) still make my eyes well up in certain scenes, no matter how many times I've re-watched them.


I actually don't cry easily... when it comes to crying due to movies, I remember only two - TWO - times I ever cried while watching a movie, in my entire life. During PJ's _Lord of the Rings_ and the final scene of _Greyhound_ when surviving merchant crews send off the escorts. I won't put the link here - movie is well worth the watch, so I don't want to ruin the ending should you decide to watch it.


Sons of the Woodland King said:


> On the other hand, I've seen and interacted with viewers who _were _moved by something they watched in the show and thus became passionate fans of certain characters/events/concepts. However, I haven't tried to interrogate them about their canon knowledge to gauge their level of authenticity as Tolkien fans. All I can hope is that at least some of the "newcomers", in their quest to satiate their appetites before the next season arrives, picks up a book and takes off from there.


Yeah, I do hope so. I'm just not very optimistic about it.


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## ZehnWaters (Dec 6, 2022)

Sons of the Woodland King said:


> Hopping back on here (sorry to interrupt any rants) to offer this point of view on RoP, from someone who is kind of in the middle on the subject. I also hang out in social media sites where there are lots of people who LOVE the show. Please try not to have violent reactions to this, but some people actually like warrior Galadriel, like the "romance" between her and "Sauron", like the short-haired Elrond and dark-skinned Arondir and beardless dwarf-women, and even old-man Celebrimbor (*shudder*). They're drawing fanart, writing fanfiction, falling in adoration of the actors, engaging with fellow fans, and still make time to defend themselves against those who lambast them for their hobbies. They're happy in their little newfound Tolkien world.


Again, this brings me back to the Ship of Theseus question: at what point does it stop being "Tolkien world"? How much has to be changed and stripped away? Does simply calling oneself "Tolkien" make it so? Does being "Tolkien-inspired" suffice? If that's the standard then D&D is Tolkien and all of it's fans, fans of Tolkien.


Sons of the Woodland King said:


> Perhaps we shouldn't judge them for not reading the books or being well-versed in canon.


It's not them I'm judging, it's the show makers. There's a reason they're completely overhauling the show for next season.


Sons of the Woodland King said:


> They're younger consumers who maybe have never been introduced to LOTR before (not everyone gets the books as required school reading or are simply not readers...plenty of reasons for this) but saw something in RoP that sparked joy and interest.


Which is fine. It's not about fans so much as it is the story and show itself that are the issue. Fans become an issue when they attack, either direction. I've seen plenty of fans of RoP troll online too.


Sons of the Woodland King said:


> Without RoP, there's nothing to go head-to-head against Game of Thrones in mainstream fantasy at the moment. I don't want my kids growing up without Tolkien existing in some mass media form, even in an imperfect iteration.


The problem with this mindset is that eventually you'll simply accept garbage as your only standard is "Tolkien-inspired work existing, in whatever form". When does one start demanding quality? Where's the threshold?


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## Ent (Dec 6, 2022)

Well. Here we are again railing with the same rails.

At it's root folks, what we have here is a simple "moral vs. legal" argument. 

Morally, 'should they do it'? This is very much a function of how each person feels. i.e. opinion. 
Legally, 'can they do it'? This is very much a function of the law, and yes indeed they can. 
And in this world one thing that is incontrovertibly true is that the law (call it 'money and power') will always win over morality. 

AND YET:
It seems, if *in fact* they're overhauling the 2nd season... (has this been verified? I thought it still just a rumor)... then the 'moral group' can be thankful they've been heard.

So maybe it's time to stop the railing, accept that the first season IS, however much it is disliked by many, and see what happens next? 

Covering the same old ground without a new word, reason, or statement included, really does get repetitive, and it seems may possibly now be totally unnecessarily if their point has in fact been made and efforts at change are happening. 

Whatever. 

@Sons of the Woodland King - thank you for your points of view.


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## ZehnWaters (Dec 6, 2022)

Ent said:


> Yet it seems, if in fact they're overhauling the 2nd season... (has this been verified? I thought it still just a rumor)...


We know they're overhauling production as they're removing to an entirely different country and recasting one of the characters.


Ent said:


> then the 'railers' can be thankful they've been heard.
> 
> Maybe it's time to stop the railing, and see what happens next?
> It really does get repetitive...and possibly now totally unnecessarily so if their point has been made.


Have they been heard? Has it been made? Will they undo what they did in the 1st season? If not than the first two questions are answered with "no". But, as you've also brought up, we won't know until it drops and that won't be for at least another year and a half.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Dec 6, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> Where's the threshold?


For me personally, the "threshold" -- or gold standard, rather-- for Tolkien adaptations is the 1981 BBC Radio series, which was faithful to what he actually wrote, though I had a few minor quibbles. Anything beyond that is -- again, to _me -- _tainted in some way.

The PJ LOTR is now accepted, "for good or ill" as a kind of canon in some circles. An example: my cousin received a LOTR Trivial Pursuit game, and was surprised at many of the "facts" he couldn't recall, until he realized many were from the _movies_. And we can, of course, see the confusions and resulting arguments on Reddit or Quora-- or even here!

The same thing will happen-- may now be happening-- with RoP. We purists may not like it (I'll note that a Newsweek article called _Peter Jackson _"nothing if not a purist", BTW 🙄) but just as the movies put Tolkien back on the bestseller lists, so may RoP, whatever criticisms we may have.

That, I look at as a net positive.


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## Sons of the Woodland King (Dec 6, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> The problem with this mindset is that eventually you'll simply accept garbage as your only standard is "Tolkien-inspired work existing, in whatever form". When does one start demanding quality? Where's the threshold?


Aw, come on now. I may eat junk sometimes, but I draw the line at garbage. I'm not a raccoon.

For example, just yesterday, my husband pointed out that I had not watched a single sappy Christmas Hallmark/romance movie this year. I gave him a look and said, "ONE Christmas, I gave those movies a try. Never again!" 😬

But yeah, I won't accept "just anything". RoP isn't just THAT far off the rails or offensive as others perceive it to be. If other Tolkien fans want to think less of me for that opinion, well...can't deny it kind of hurts my feelings, but I just can't do anything about that.

Speaking of racoons.... maybe I'm THIS kind of racoon... one of my favorites! 🤣


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## Ent (Dec 6, 2022)

Sir SeS, I agree with your assessments myself, as everyone can no doubt tell. (I trust no one thinks I'm 'fond' of RoP... but I'm tolerant I'm afraid.)

I'll repost a former pic:




(not that Ent can really morph into this guy...he should be so lucky. But hey...he can dream.)


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## ZehnWaters (Dec 6, 2022)

Sons of the Woodland King said:


> For what it's worth, you and I probably have more things in agreement regarding RoP than I do with the fans. I found more things to dislike about RoP than like, including the entire list I enumerated in my opening paragraph. (Old Man Celebrimbor--*ugh-sigh-WHY*)


Such a baffling decision to me. And then he doesn't even know about mixing metals?! As a smith? One of the greatest?! The grandson of THE greatest?!!


Sons of the Woodland King said:


> I've done my fair share of ranting against RoP on here, but I've tried to keep it more humorous and light-hearted so as not to make people with opposing viewpoints feel alienated. I don't know. Maybe I'm just soft.


That's fair.


Sons of the Woodland King said:


> I'm new to the site, but I honestly haven't seen the admins stopping anyone from voicing their opinions, whichever side they're on. But it IS their responsibility to adhere to the rules they set up regarding acceptable posts and behavior from members. I have seen fan sites without proper admin management, and it is brutal out there.


Yes. They've done better than I've seen almost ANY moderator on ANY site I've been on.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Dec 6, 2022)

Well, thanks for that -- we're certainly at least worth what we get paid! 🤣

At least I hope so.


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## Ent (Dec 6, 2022)

Sons of the Woodland King said:


> Maybe I'm just soft.


Nope. More like understanding and compassionate of other people, while at the same time APPROPRIATELY moving forward with discussions about what's wrong, and could be better. 

There's a place to let all our fangs show as we rip carcasses apart... but that isn't toward the general public or even those who may enjoy it.

We do far better 'picking the right target' for our venom.

We SAY it's not the people that we're arguing against...yet if they dare post, there's frequently not a fang left uncovered.

Our behaviors should match our words...otherwise we're just 'blowing wind'. (an Ent favorite saying.)


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Dec 6, 2022)

In any event, I'm sure all these arguments will be rehashed when this comes out.


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## Ent (Dec 6, 2022)

Will it air before Season 2 of RoP??


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## Sons of the Woodland King (Dec 6, 2022)

Ent said:


> So maybe it's time to stop the railing, accept that the first season IS, however much it is disliked by many, and see what happens next?
> 
> Covering the same old ground without a new word, reason, or statement included, really does get repetitive, and it seems may possibly now be totally unnecessarily if their point has in fact been made and efforts at change are happening.
> 
> ...


@Ent You're welcome! I don't know how I found anything new(ish?) to say about this topic since we do seem to keep going around in circles with it and I don't think anyone is gonna get converted. 🤣 Maybe it was because I was just talking to a couple of folks yesterday who were upset by the news of Joseph Mawle exiting the series. If it irks us to see the things we love get insulted (or whatever you want to call it), it hurts the other side too when their shiny toy gets spoiled. I try to commiserate with people who've taken a hit, even if I don't personally "get it". I guess sometimes my Mama Bear mode gets triggered and I go on defense. 

Again, trying to find anything good or useful in RoP can be a challenge for many of us. I'm just here to say I somehow managed; I'm making new friends, I'm back to writing new LOTR fiction, I'm here talking to you wonderful folks! RoP's existence gets the credit for that. Scrape whatever bit of enjoyment you can out of life! Lemons out of lemonade and all that. 

Can't wait to see what I can squeeze out of Season 2!


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Dec 6, 2022)

Ent said:


> Will it air before Season 2 of RoP??


Set for April 2024. RoP seems somewhat up in the air, so I don't know.


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## Sons of the Woodland King (Dec 6, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Set for April 2024. RoP seems somewhat up in the air, so I don't know.


I DID NOT KNOW ABOUT THIS MOVIE. Aiyeeeeee!!!! 

A little disappointed that it's animated, but as I said before... I take what I can get!!! 😍


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## ZehnWaters (Dec 6, 2022)

Sons of the Woodland King said:


> Aw, come on now. I may eat junk sometimes, but I draw the line at garbage. I'm not a raccoon.
> 
> For example, just yesterday, my husband pointed out that I had not watched a single sappy Christmas Hallmark/romance movie this year. I gave him a look and said, "ONE Christmas, I gave those movies a try. Never again!" 😬
> 
> But yeah, I won't accept "just anything". RoP isn't just THAT far off the rails or offensive as others perceive it to be. If other Tolkien fans want to think less of me for that opinion, well...can't deny it kind of hurts my feelings, but I just can't do anything about that.


I suppose it just comes down to my experiences in the past. Many who start as "understanding" turn permissive and then they start making excuses and eventually they realize the thing they're defending has gone well past what they would have allowed or accepted prior. And because of that I simply don't like lowering my standards.

That the show might bring in new fans doesn't mean the show ever needed to be what it is. You can bring in new fans AND hold to canon. It's become common in media to hold the two up as exclusive to one another and they are not. I think that is what most find frustrating about the counter-argument about new fans.


Sons of the Woodland King said:


> Speaking of racoons.... maybe I'm THIS kind of racoon... one of my favorites! 🤣
> 
> View attachment 20429


An excellent choice.


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## Ent (Dec 6, 2022)

Sons of the Woodland King said:


> Can't wait to see what I can squeeze out of Season 2!


And there it is. If we can take the 'opportunity' position rather than the 'victimized' stance, we'll be so far better off... and at the end of the day, personally accomplish far more into the bargain.

The 'opportunity' position says this:
1. Find the target(s) within Amazon and all associated with the production of the series, and let our thoughts be known. (And here too, honey will get us farther than vinegar.) This is an OPPORTUNITY for us to be heard.
2. Look for those who are intrigued by or questioning because of it, and foster a relationship with them, using that opportunity to do a little 'steering' to that which is so much better.
3. Insure we take all the opportunities that we're provided, NOT to stomp on someone's views or positions, while still compassionately (and passionately) sharing our own views into the matter.

And on it goes.
There is not one iota of the existence of this thing that isn't an OPPORTUNITY rather than a collapse of the entire universe around us into rubble about our feet. Though I daresay, we can choose to look at it that way nonetheless.



ZehnWaters said:


> You can bring in new fans AND hold to canon.


Indeed. But they didn't. And...there it is. So... whaddaya gonna do. Find the opportunities. Not one ounce of finding and using them detracts from all the 'negativity' that keeps getting repeated. It simply puts it in a different, and much more profitable picture frame for viewing.


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## Sons of the Woodland King (Dec 6, 2022)

Oh look, I found more to say. 😅 

All that being said, I do want to say *I deeply appreciate the Tolkien fans who are willing to do battle* and take the creators to task. I'm not the sort of person to do that, which is probably a shortcoming stemming out of my dislike for confrontation, but it is true that we may not get the quality we expect and deserve in these adaptations unless we demand it and make our voices heard. There just needs to be balance and temperance when doing so.

If we do get a better quality Season 2 of RoP, I know who to thank!


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## Aldarion (Dec 6, 2022)

Ent said:


> Sir SeS, I agree with your assessments myself, as everyone can no doubt tell. (I trust no one thinks I'm 'fond' of RoP... but I'm tolerant I'm afraid.)
> 
> I'll repost a former pic:
> 
> ...


I am afraid that is not likely to happen. How many movies do you know where people have no clue they were based on the books?


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## Ent (Dec 6, 2022)

Aldarion said:


> How many movies do you know where people have no clue they were based on the books?


I guess here's the deal. I don't find the point worth arguing.
Some do.
My care and concern for those that don't doesn't exist.
Why? Because they do not care either.

I cannot 'force people where they do not want to go.' Nor will I even try.
My problem is not now, nor will it ever be, with hapless mankind and the individual choices people make as they trudge their ways to their graves.
I certainly do not 'chastize them for their choices'. it's pointless.

Is my target Amazon and the movie makers? Is it the Tolkien Foundation who let go the rights? 
Or is it the masses of humanity that make their own individual choices.

I will repeat this: we have absolutely no right to attack, assault, demean, or shout down any individual for sharing their thoughts and opinions.

This includes those who say 'i hage the movie, it's terrible, and shouldn't even exist'. (However incorrect that statement is.) I don't mind at all. Until it's been said 150 times, in the same ways and words, and by the same people. 

Anyone searching our threads here knows exactly who says what about what. And those that don't and won't search our threads aren't going to be moved by being yelled at or shouted down.

Sadly, the "Tolkien Purists" are VERY guilty of doing just these things routinely and constantly. And I have to wonder who is in the worse position.
The hapless person that is clueless about 'the difference' or the possessed person who obsesses over it and just can't quit saying the same thing over and over.

Only one of them will ultimately end up at the Doctor's office due to self-induced stress... hint: it's not the hapless person.

And this is the one and only target of all this writing i continue to do, BEGGING them to quit abusing individuals because of the sins of some movie makers.
Can we really not tell the difference?

Or do we just really think we have the right to force mankind and their thinking where we want them to go. That is the mindset of a dictator and the ongoing bashing and repetitive repetition of 'an axiom' every time someone posts a thought is the methodology.


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## ZehnWaters (Dec 6, 2022)

Ent said:


> And there it is. If we can take the 'opportunity' position rather than the 'victimized' stance, we'll be so far better off... and at the end of the day, personally accomplish far more into the bargain.
> 
> The 'opportunity' position says this:
> 1. Find the target(s) within Amazon and all associated with the production of the series, and let our thoughts be known.


Which is what many are doing. The problem is, regardless of HOW they do it, they still get criticized and their arguments turned into straw men. It is exceptionally common as can be seen among other IPs. An easy out.


Ent said:


> (And here too, honey will get us farther than vinegar.)


It should be noted that in many cases the fans were attacked (whether by the studio or the media) before they'd even had a chance to respond or despite having even moderate criticism.


Ent said:


> rather than a collapse of the entire universe around us into rubble about our feet. Though I daresay, we can choose to look at it that way nonetheless.


Is anyone?


Ent said:


> Indeed. But they didn't. And...there it is. So... whaddaya gonna do.


I'm going to point it out and fight against it. The more one finds it acceptable, the more it will happen as one has permitted it to. That doesn't mean I'm not allowed to voice my opinion.


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## Ent (Dec 6, 2022)

p.s. - I'm done posting about this topic, on this or any other thread. Everything that can be, needs to be, or should be said, has already been said...more times than I ever thought would be needful for people to start grasping what's being done as a result of all this RoP craziness. 

I am well aware many do not know how to handle their feelings and opinions without being abusive or cruel to others into the bargain. I just didn't think there was so much of it remaining here. 

As with those who enjoy Sherlock Holmes, I would have thought those who enjoy Tolkien would better know how to arrest, channel and target their opportunities in situations both good and bad, for the benefit of ALL involved, rather than the potential achievement of personal objectives. 

I'm finding I'm just wrong. 
And worse, I find I had "hopes" into the matter. And you all likely know my saying.

"Every frustration comes from an unfulfilled expectation. Every disappointment comes from an unfulfilled hope." 

I find myself disappointed.


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## ZehnWaters (Dec 6, 2022)

Sons of the Woodland King said:


> There just needs to be balance and temperance when doing so.


I agree. It is often the hardest trial we face when defending something near to our hearts.


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## Ent (Dec 6, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> I agree.


This could restore one hope..!


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## Ent (Dec 6, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Set for April 2024. RoP seems somewhat up in the air, so I don't know.


OK thanks. Gives me time to plot my exit in advance of a resurgence of vitriolic behavior.


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## Sons of the Woodland King (Dec 6, 2022)

Ent said:


> OK thanks. Gives me time to plot my exit in advance of a resurgence of vitriolic behavior.


And gives me time to brush up on my knowledge of the Rohirrim! I favor and spend time on the Eldar WAY too much. 😅 

An LOTR movie without Elves? I might not know what to with myself.


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## Sons of the Woodland King (Dec 6, 2022)

Ent said:


> Nope. More like understanding and compassionate of other people, while at the same time APPROPRIATELY moving forward with discussions about what's wrong, and could be better.


Thank you sir, but I am convinced I am just soft. 😅 Becoming a mom does very weird things to a woman, not just physically. And to men too, when they become new fathers! Definitely saw it in my behemoth husband who now melts at kids and babies like he never has before. 

Anyway, along this line, a little more of my ramblings.... sensitive people like myself (and I don't believe I'm a unique snowflake) just don't have as thick skin as others. We may take it hard or personally when the things we passionately love and spend time supporting gets stomped on or derided by others, _especially _if in the process, we are made to feel like we are somehow stupid or inferior for liking what we do. I try to keep this in mind before I vent and criticize things that annoy me, but might mean the world to someone else. (I'm so sorry, RoP Celebrimbor fans! (Yes guys, believe it or not I've found a few of them!)) Because I do know how it feels. 

I think that's all the Admins/Mods are asking of the members here on TF when we have these debates. ✌️ We are so impressively wonderful with words here. Surely we can state our cases without just using the words, "hate", "shouldn't exist", "sucks", ad nauseam. Some members _*are *_able to to this, and I appreciate them!


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## ZehnWaters (Dec 6, 2022)

Ent said:


> This includes those who say 'i hage the movie, it's terrible, and shouldn't even exist'. (However incorrect that statement is.)


It is a statement of opinion; it can be neither correct nor incorrect.


Ent said:


> I don't mind at all. Until it's been said 150 times, in the same ways and words, and by the same people.


One could simply not engage in their threads. I skip over topics all of the time.


Ent said:


> Sadly, the "Tolkien Purists" are VERY guilty of doing just these things routinely and constantly.


In my experience RoP has just as many trolls, just not on here.


Ent said:


> And I have to wonder who is in the worse position.
> And this is the one and only target of all this writing i continue to do, BEGGING them to quit abusing individuals because of the sins of some movie makers.
> Can we really not tell the difference?


"We"?


Ent said:


> Or do we just really think we have the right to force mankind and their thinking where we want them to go. That is the mindset of a dictator and the ongoing bashing and repetitive repetition of 'an axiom' every time someone posts a thought is the methodology.


Some people have been going onto threads criticizing RoP and complaining about the criticism. Are they better? Are they not trying to get those who DISLIKE the show to "go where we want them to go"? Is that not also a repetition of "an axiom"?


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## ZehnWaters (Dec 6, 2022)

Ent said:


> I certainly do not 'chastize them for their choices'. it's pointless.


This is patently untrue. You've spent this entire conversation guilting and shaming everyone who didn't respond as you thought they ought to as we see in the following:


Ent said:


> p.s. - I'm done posting about this topic, on this or any other thread. Everything that can be, needs to be, or should be said, has already been said...more times than I ever thought would be needful for people to start grasping what's being done as a result of all this RoP craziness.
> 
> I am well aware many do not know how to handle their feelings and opinions without being abusive or cruel to others into the bargain. I just didn't think there was so much of it remaining here.
> 
> As with those who enjoy Sherlock Holmes, I would have thought those who enjoy Tolkien would better know how to arrest, channel and target their opportunities in situations both good and bad, for the benefit of ALL involved, rather than the potential achievement of personal objectives.


How do you know what their "personal objectives are" and why is that for you to determine? Why do you get to determine what is "the benefit of ALL involved"? To quote Théoden: "for were you ten times as wise you would have no right to rule me and mine for your own profit as you desired".


Ent said:


> I'm finding I'm just wrong.
> 
> And worse, I find I had "hopes" into the matter. And you all likely know my saying.
> 
> ...


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Dec 6, 2022)

Sons of the Woodland King said:


> A little disappointed that it's animated


Ahah. Some of our members feel that animation is the format _most _suited for adaptations, as can be seen on various threads, including the discussion about this particular movie:








The Lord of the Rings: The War of the Rohirrim


What the heck? I don't even know what to think. https://variety.com/2021/film/news/lord-of-the-rings-anime-the-war-of-the-rohirrim-new-line-cinema-warner-bros-animation-1234993740/




www.thetolkienforum.com




Along with the usual digressions and derailments, of course. 😄

And it's by no means limited to our membership:








Lord of the Rings: 6 Stories That Should be Told Through Animation


There is immense potential in adapting the stories of J.R.R. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings and Middle-Earth into the realm of animation.




movieweb.com


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Dec 6, 2022)

Sons of the Woodland King said:


> And gives me time to brush up on my knowledge of the Rohirrim!


You'll find the story in Appendix A II, The House of Eorl.


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## Olorgando (Dec 6, 2022)

Alice said:


> This culture just works like that: silencing those who aren't in strict standards and pretending to be a victim.


What culture are you posting about?
What you describe are authoritarian states, and there's not the slightest doubt where those are to be found - and it's definitely not on TTF.


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## Aldarion (Dec 6, 2022)

Ent said:


> I guess here's the deal. I don't find the point worth arguing.
> Some do.
> My care and concern for those that don't doesn't exist.
> Why? Because they do not care either.
> ...


I really don't understand how you got from "Rings of Power are trash" to "attacking, assaulting, demeaning or shouting down individuals"? So far, I have only _very rarely_ - read, maybe once or twice _ever - _come across a case of somebody "attacking" somebody else for liking (or disliking) Rings of Power.

Saying "Rings of Power are trash" is not in any way, shape or form _any_ of the things you have listed. It is opinion, and when supported with evidence, can prevent people from potentially wasting time on something they would not like. Or the opposite. Point is, criticism a) *is good* and b) does _not _imply or require attacking individuals.

Literally the only people who I have seen attack others on individual/personal level due to anything related to Rings of Power have been Amazon officials, showrunners and actors. _That's it_.


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## ZehnWaters (Dec 6, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Ahah. Some of our members feel that animation is the format _most _suited for adaptations


It's easier to portray fantastical elements. Or cheaper, at least.


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## ZehnWaters (Dec 6, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> What culture are you posting about?
> What you describe are authoritarian states, and there's not the slightest doubt where those are to be found - and it's definitely not on TTF.


Not here, no. TTF is a wonderful respite, even if we argue. What I speak of is, unfortunately, where most of American pop culture is propelled (disproportionate to it's reach): Twitter. Celebrities, politicians, and the media all collide on this platform and too many of the CEOs (or the like) assume it portrays an accurate reading of the populace at large.



Aldarion said:


> Literally the only people who I have seen attack others on individual/personal level due to anything related to Rings of Power have been Amazon officials, showrunners and actors. _That's it_.


And twitter nobodies. Some of whom may well be bots or sock puppets.


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## CheriptheRipper (Dec 6, 2022)

Sons of the Woodland King said:


> I think that's all the Admins/Mods are asking of the members here on TF when we have these debates. ✌️ We are so impressively wonderful with words here. Surely we can state our cases without just using the words, "hate", "shouldn't exist", "sucks", ad nauseam. Some members _*are *_able to to this, and I appreciate them!


I actually meant to point that out, I don't necessarily agree with anything any of y'all have said but I did note you lot have a very nice way with words and do overall seem more respectful in these conversations.


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## Aldarion (Dec 6, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Some of our members feel that animation is the format _most _suited for adaptations


It is. Animation is only really limited by imagination. For live action, you are either limited by props... or use CGI which too often ends up in the Uncanny Valley.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Dec 6, 2022)

Hey -- don't forget stop-motion!


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## Aldarion (Dec 6, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Hey -- don't forget stop-motion!
> View attachment 20441
> View attachment 20442


Yeah, stop motion, for all that it has limitations, is _amazing_.


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## ZehnWaters (Dec 6, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Hey -- don't forget stop-motion!
> View attachment 20441
> View attachment 20442


lol while fun and charming it is...not what many are expecting. You do get some scary monsters, though.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Dec 6, 2022)

Audiences become jaded. But people were fainting in the aisles when they first saw this:


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## CheriptheRipper (Dec 6, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Audiences become jaded. But people were fainting in the aisles when they first saw this:
> View attachment 20443


When was this then 😂


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Dec 6, 2022)

1933. The premier of King Kong.

And stop-motion is far from dead, as shown by de Toro's new Pinocchio.


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## CheriptheRipper (Dec 6, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> 1933. The premier of King Kong.
> 
> And stop-motion is far from dead, as shown by de Toro's new Pinocchio.
> View attachment 20445


Damn that's awhiles back.
Netflix do seem to like reinvigorating older styles of filmmaking. The new Age of Crystals show did an amazing puppetry job as well apparently.


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## Deimos (Dec 6, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Hey -- don't forget stop-motion!
> View attachment 20441
> View attachment 20442


I think JatA was my first intro to stop motion cinematography when I was old enough to appreciate it.
Ray Harryhausen was a total genius.
Even making Hermes gigantic was well done, and that wasn't stop motion. 
Tho' the screenplay was undeniably cleaned up (from the original myth) to meet the Hays code, it is still one of the best Sword and Sorcery movies ever made. Still on my DVD shelf, still a fav.


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## Deimos (Dec 6, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> 1933. The premier of King Kong.
> 
> And stop-motion is far from dead, as shown by de Toro's new Pinocchio.
> View attachment 20445


Stop-motion was used in PJ's LOTR in one place only.
The moment immediately caught my eye, but I wasn't quite sure it was stop-motion; had to look it up to find out for certain.


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## Aldarion (Dec 6, 2022)

Deimos said:


> Stop-motion was used in PJ's LOTR in one place only.
> The moment immediately caught my eye, but I wasn't quite sure it was stop-motion; had to look it up to find out for certain.


By the way, Viggo Mortensen doesn't like CGI:








Viggo Mortensen calls 'Lord of the Rings' trilogy a 'mess'


Viggo Mortensen calls 'Lord of the Rings' trilogy a 'mess'




ew.com


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## Deimos (Dec 6, 2022)

Aldarion said:


> By the way, Viggo Mortensen doesn't like CGI:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hmmmm... well, some of us might call Viggo Mortensen a mess.....😉


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## Aldarion (Dec 7, 2022)

Deimos said:


> Hmmmm... well, some of us might call Viggo Mortensen a mess.....😉


Well, his arguments aren't wrong. Fellowship is the best of three movies, while the CGI-heavy Hobbit even looks atrocious. That pale orc in particular.


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## Deimos (Dec 7, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Audiences become jaded. But people were fainting in the aisles when they first saw this:
> View attachment 20443


I watch it every so often..... and I still faint (but in my living room) 😁


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## Sons of the Woodland King (Dec 7, 2022)

I must be missing something because I'm confused how anyone could feel their negative opinions about RoP or the PJ films are being censored. I feel like the posts on TF regarding both adaptations have been overwhelmingly negative and tolerant at best. I may just have been hanging out in the "wrong" places, but before coming here I had never seen so much rejection of Peter Jackson's works in my entire life. 😅

It's so one-sided in fact, that I pretty much just go elsewhere to find people to gush over the movies with, because I know no one wants to hear it here on TF. And that's okay, I guess every site has its purpose!

Sorry, I guess this is about RoP....going back to that...

Perhaps the Admins are just trying to keep the RoP venting posts from getting out of hand and overwhelming the rest of the site. I don't think a venting and griping venue is the primary purpose of this forum they are providing us for free. If even just 50% of posts discussing the adaptations is constant RoP bashing, it just doesn't make for a very nice environment to hang out in. I think we all just need a gentle reminder that--hey, there are other things to talk about, other threads to start and participate in! The flaws of RoP have been discussed a ridiculous amount for something that is being accused of being "not Tolkien related".

Also, perhaps each of us should consider that it is not the content of our posts that they are trying to discourage... just the way we voice our opinions. I was prone to using, err... more colorful language in my posts before SeS had to step in and gently remind me to dial it back. I wasn't offended by the "censorship". Rules are rules and it is a privilege to be part of this community, not a God-given right.


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## Sons of the Woodland King (Dec 7, 2022)

Ent said:


> I don't think anyone was trying to 'shame anyone' regarding negativity toward RoP.
> If that's what was taken from all that was posted, I apologize.
> 
> What I was trying to say, quite simply, is "it's fine to not like the series, and we don't care that you don't... but there's a POSITIVE way to handle how you say what you say, and there's a simply NEGATIVE way to say how you handle saying what you say... and the "overall bash" of the Series has been said 150 times by 50 members already."
> ...


I think we were pretty much typing the same thoughts at the same time, my friend!

Also, speaking of shame, I wanna just raise my hand and say, I've NEVER thought of feeling embarrassed or guilty of my love for the PJ films (or even the little enjoyment I got from RoP), until coming here. So....again... not sure why someone would think they are being shamed for being critical of RoP. You are by far in the majority here on TF.


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## Sons of the Woodland King (Dec 7, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> the stupid story about the balrog and elf fighting over the tree


Hahaha oh my goodness, again I'm embarrassed to admit it, but this was an ultimate moment of gaslighting for me watching that story being told by Gil-galad/Elrond. 

Because my knowledge is so limited I actually stared at that scene, scratched my head and went, _"Uh, is that actually in a book somewhere I just didn't read??" _


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Dec 7, 2022)

Sons of the Woodland King said:


> Also, speaking of shame, I wanna just raise my hand and say, I've NEVER thought of feeling embarrassed or guilty of my love for the PJ films (or even the little enjoyment I got from RoP), until coming here.


We certainly don't want anyone to feel embarrassed or guilty here, and I'm very sorry if you do. Perhaps a little background would be helpful. 

This forum, unlike many, predates the movies (and long predates _my _presence here), and most of the original members were book lovers. When the films came out, some liked them, some didn't (and some, it must be said, were outraged). 

At the same time, many new people joined, wanting to talk about the movies, as you can imagine. You can read through some of the resulting FAD/NPW wars in the old threads from the time.

Of course, that was now decades ago, and many of the "film-only" people have long since moved on to other things to be interested in, leaving mostly book lovers here to wrangle about Balrog wings and Tom Bombadil. 

_Mostly_, I say, but there are plenty of members who care about both, and new members, like you, coming all the time-- which is a good thing; we wantTTF to be welcoming to everyone. 

There are still places here to discuss the films without rancor, and some fairly recent positive threads on them, such as this one:








PJ: What He Did Well


So, looking through the forum, there is a lot of negativity regarding PJ's movies. Of course - they left much to be desired, but what do y'all think that the films portrayed/did particularly well? Personally, I really enjoyed the Nazgul. As a nine-year-old, watching the movies for the first...




www.thetolkienforum.com




I hope that helps a bit. 🙂


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## Erestor Arcamen (Dec 7, 2022)

And with that (being the last several pages of posts), locking thread as it's gone pretty off-topic for the last several pages. Feel free to start up threads on your criticisms of ROP, just don't attack people (on either side of the aisle) for their opinions on the series.


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