# Should Manwë have revealed the arrival of Men?



## Arvedui (Oct 14, 2003)

> In those days, moreover, though the Valar knew indeed of the coming of Men that were to be, the Elves as yet knew naught of it; for Manwë had not revealed it to them


_The Silmarillion, Of the Silmaril's and Unrest of Noldor._ 

Given the circumstances, was Manwë correct in not revealing to the Elves, the forthcoming arrival of men?

Another topic from the Debate-Tournament.

Enjoy


----------



## Confusticated (Oct 14, 2003)

I can not think of any reason known to us that he should not have, however I expect he had a reason that was in line with Iluvatar's will.

Could be that he thought the Eldar would want to go back and meet these Men, but I do not see any harm in that, since I believe the two races were ment to interact. Unless he thought the elves would try to go meet when when they first wake up... which was probably a no-no by Iluvatar.


----------



## Celebthôl (Oct 14, 2003)

Maybe it would have had something to do with the journey, how frustraiting would it be to be told "If you under-take this trip, you will get to the undying west", yet those that started out to begin with die before they get there and never got to see it?. . . just a thought


----------



## Manwe (Nov 12, 2003)

My decisions are my own!!!


----------



## Inderjit S (Nov 16, 2003)

I wonder. Why didn't he reveal the coming of Men? I think it may be as Nóm says, it was in line with some plan of Eru.

It could have been of course, not to cause any jealousy amongst the Ñoldor who may have felt that the Elves were brought to Aman in order for Men to inherit Middle-Earth, as Melkor spread to the Ñoldor when he was causing unrest between the Finwëans and the Ñoldor in general. Of course whether or not the Ñoldor would believe such a thing is questionable (From Manwë that is) or he may have wished to preserve the secrecy of the second race of the Eruhini. 



> Unless he thought the elves would try to go meet when when they first wake up... which was probably a no-no by Iluvatar.



Indeed. He may have tried to preserve the sanctity and secrecy of Men, in their first few years if ignorance in which they must discover some things by themselves and learn to take care of themselves. We don't know when they actually met any Elves, but they seem to have had some communications with Avari, though some Avari shunned them, some were friendly, friendship initially born out of curiosity maybe.

But then again in Tolkien's alteration of the mythology, Men awoke not long after Elves. (Though of course the statement from the _Published Silmarillion_ most likely taken from _Annals of Aman_ or _LQ II_ (HoME 10) would have pre-dated this. The essays from which I get some of my information, such as the _Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth_ (HoME 10), _Quendi and Eldar_ (HoME 11), and _Of Dwarves and Men_ (HoME 12) were written in context that Men awoke soon after the Elves, not with the rising of the Sun and Moon. 



> My decisions are my own!!!



Actually most of the time's they are Eru's. *cough* God's pet.


----------



## Confusticated (Nov 17, 2003)

> It could have been of course, not to cause any jealousy amongst the Ñoldor who may have felt that the Elves were brought to Aman in order for Men to inherit Middle-Earth, as Melkor spread to the Ñoldor when he was causing unrest between the Finwëans and the Ñoldor in general. Of course whether or not the Ñoldor would believe such a thing is questionable (From Manwë that is) or he may have wished to preserve the secrecy of the second race of the Eruhini.



But keep in mind, if were to have told them about Men, he could have done so before Melkor was released. 

And about elves meeting men too soon... remember Nuin from Lost Tales?  Tu the fay said Eru'd be ticked off if the elf messed with Men too soon.

And imagine the reaction of the Avari.. especially the Tatyar, when the Noldor come marching back East through the lands all arrogant and looking not to rejoin their kin, but for some new race. hehehe.

PS: What I wonder is how and when the Avari learned that Men were a new race, versus some defective elves.


----------



## celebdraug (Nov 20, 2003)

i think it was maybe because he might have not also wanted any jelousy to build up between them!


----------



## Húrin Thalion (Nov 20, 2003)

Not an easy question at all, no doubt this was in accord with Eru's will since Manwë was the one that understood most of it, but why was that the will fo the Highest?

Any answer that I give is entirely hypothetical, but I will have a go anyway. If you think that it was Eru's will, it is possible that they were meant to meet. For whatever the Valar said to the elves, what could they understand about the nature of men, or explain to the quendi? Whatever they said would further complicate matters between the races, compare to what happened between the Valar and elves after the overthrow of Melkor, love, confusion, uncertainty and lack of understanding brought the Eldar to the Undying lands, which in the end proved disastrous.

If Manwë was acting on his own, it might be that he saw no reason to tell them, very simple but still possible. What good would they have from knowing that men would one day come?

Måns


----------



## Arvedui (Apr 7, 2006)

And to add to what H.T started:
What could Manwë have told them anyway?
He didn't know much about Men, did he?

Most likely, Manwë *was* going to tell the Elves about Men, but not until he knew some more about their coming.


----------



## Annaheru (Apr 7, 2006)

I'm in agreement with the two quotes above. After all, a fairly standard idea of wisdom is to only speak on those subjects you know and understand in detail. What's Manwe supposed to tell them: "O, by the way, Eru created some other race with some kind of special gift. I don't know when they're going to wake up, or where, or how this relates to you, but I'll get back to you when I know more"?


Also, to use 20/20 hindsight, Morgoth seems just as capable of twisting anything Manwe did say, as he was in twisting what he didn't say.


----------



## Thorondor_ (Apr 8, 2006)

Well, I don't think the elves would have been as interested in finding out about the coming of Men (give or take one race - it shouldn't make that much difference) as in knowing that Men will one day rule Arda and elves will fade (as we know, for example, from the Silmarillion prophecy concerning the ents - I don't have the books handy right now).


----------



## Arvedui (Apr 18, 2006)

But the Elves would probably not have enough insight into their own spirits to understand their own nature at the time. So the idea of Men ruling Arda could in their mind probably only come about as a result of some sort of treason against the Elves.


----------

