# Finarfin's choice



## baraka (Mar 31, 2002)

Do you think that Finarfin made the right choice when he decided to stay in Valinor after the Kinslaying in Alqualonde? Didn't he as a noldorian prince, owed to his people to guide them, in this difficult path in ME where all the perils lay ahead for them. Or did his loyalties lay first with the Valar.


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## Maedhros (Apr 1, 2002)

*Choice*

My half-uncle Finarfin, should have led his people in our time of need. I realize that what we did in Alqualonde was wrong, but to "abandon" his people was WRONG. He stayed loyal to the valar but shoudn't he have stayed loyal to his own people. 
At least his sons understood this.


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## Camille (Apr 2, 2002)

I think he did tha right thing it they Noldor in their way to ME were taken to a hopeless war that only ended with the Valar intervention.
So he thought right.


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## Mormegil (Apr 2, 2002)

He should have led them to ME. To stop them following the folly of Feanor and his stupid sons.


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## Maedhros (Apr 2, 2002)

But didn't he as a prince had an obligation with the "majority" of his people. Remember, he was a noldorian prince, the third son of the king Finwe.
I really do not think that the war was hopeless. Take for example the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad. If it wasn't for the the plots of Ulfang they might have won that battle and the tides of the war would have been different.


> Some have said that even then the Eldar might have won the day, had all their hosts proved faithful; for the Orcs wavered, and their onslaught was stayed, and already some were turning to flight.


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## Camille (Apr 2, 2002)

Maedhros, the Noldor vr. melkor was a hopeless war, JRR Tolkien wrote it in one of his letters and Feanor realized it just before die I do not have the exact quotes right now but I will look for them. 
and Remember that not all the Noldor went to ME someone had to stay in Aman to keep an eye on them  (I mean Finarfin)


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## Maedhros (Apr 2, 2002)

> Fëanor bade them halt; for his wounds were mortal, and he knew that his hour was come. And looking out from the slopes of Ered Wethrin with his last sight he beheld far off the peaks of Thangorodrim, mightiest of the towers of Middle-earth, and knew with the foreknowledge of death that no power of the Noldor would ever overthrow them;


I still think that the united fronts of the Noldor and Men in ME could have defeated the armies of Morgoth. They almost did in Nirnaeth Arnoediad. I think that the Noldor shouldn't have taken the "impossible" argument. I don't think that anything is impossible unless you try it. Were would the inventions be if they were held to be "impossible" or "hopeless".


> Remember that not all the Noldor went to ME someone had to stay in Aman to keep an eye on them


Well, i'm positive they could have chosen someone instead of a prince of the house of Finwe.


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## Camille (Apr 2, 2002)

From a letter by JRR Tolkien to Milton Waldman, 1951:

"The sons of Feanor take a terrible and blasphemos oath of enemity and vengeace against all or any, even gods, who dares to claim any part or right in the Silmarilli. They pervert the greater part of their kindred, who rebel against the gods, and depart from paradise, and go to make HOPELESS war upon the Enemy."

I agree with you that nothing is impossible unless you try it but talking about the Noldor vrs Melkor it was impossible for them to deafeat him, not because they did not try but because Tolkien wrote it in that way, what would happend if they succeed? We will not have the Turin Turambar, the fall of gondolin and finally the Voyage of Earendil wich I thinks is one of the best ones.

that is why is my opinion that Finarfin made the right choice.


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## Maedhros (Apr 2, 2002)

> that is why is my opinion that Finarfin made the right choice.


Didn't Finarfin "owed" something to his people?


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## Bucky (Apr 3, 2002)

Considering only Galadriel & Idril returned alive from ME out of the 19 members of the House of Finwe who went, I'd say it was a no brainer.

As for Finarfin leading 'his' people, weren't they Feanor's people as he was the High King of the Noldor?

And, if Finarfin did have any people under his authority, maybe doing what was best for them would have been to prompt them to stay by returning to Valinor. 10% did go with him after he turned back.
How many of those lives did he save?

It's like this country (the USA):
Our current president, George Bush is morally opposed to abortion.
Should he then help to pass funding to pay for women to get abortions if he knows in his heart it is wrong? 
Or, should he stand for his principles within the legal powers he has?

Sometimes, being a leader means going against the majority based on your convictions & integrity alone..... 


>>>I still think that the united fronts of the Noldor and Men in ME could have defeated the armies of Morgoth. They almost did in Nirnaeth Arnoediad.

Had they defeated Morgoth there, the best they would've gotten was a return to the status quo prior to the 4th Battle: A partial seige of Angband.
Remember, "The full strength of the Eldar & Edain had only sufficed to hold Morgoth in leaguer & they had not even seen from afar a Silmaril." (paraphrase)


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## Maedhros (Apr 3, 2002)

> Considering only Galadriel & Idril returned alive from ME out of the 19 members of the House of Finwe who went, I'd say it was a no brainer.


So the deeds and all that the Noldor did then account for nothing because they died. They did more than any other kindred of the Eldar that stayed in Valinor. So the fact of staying "alive" is the main point, although doing nothing to avenge the death of your king. There are somethings that are worth fighting for. An ideal or a thought.
So the Noldor should have say: Well, our king is dead, and since the Valar do nothing, well let's sit here and sing and dance and do nothing. Beacause they tell us it's impossible, then there's no way we can do it. Yeah right.



> As for Finarfin leading 'his' people, weren't they Feanor's people as he was the High King of the Noldor?


He was "technically" the High King of the Noldor.


> For though he had brought the assembly in a mind to depart, by no means all were of a mind to take Fëanor as King. Greater love was given to Fingolfin and his sons, and his household and the most part of the dwellers in Tirion refused to renounce him, if he would go with them; and thus at the last as two divided hosts the Noldor set forth upon their bitter road.


He would have helped his brother Fingolfin.



> Sometimes, being a leader means going against the majority based on your convictions & integrity alone.....


Yes, and sometimes being a leader means going against your desires and lead your people when the going gets rough. When they need you the most.



> Had they defeated Morgoth there, the best they would've gotten was a return to the status quo prior to the 4th Battle: A partial seige of Angband.


No, Morgoth had emptied Angband.


> Morgoth loosed his last strength, and Angband was emptied. There came wolves, and wolfriders, and there came Balrogs, and dragons, and Glaurung father of dragons.


Morgoth would have had to fight himself, because none remained there.


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## Camille (Apr 3, 2002)

Finarfin chose to stay in Valinor was after the kinslaying, do you remember that he and his brother fingolfin went with the host of the Noldor? He agree to follow his people but after seeing all that damage that the silmarilli quest he prefer to stay. that was the main reason confirmated by the doom of Mandos.



> So the Noldor should have say: Well, our king is dead, and since the Valar do nothing, well let's sit here and sing and dance and do nothing.



The Valar would have do something if the Noldor had not acted like they did, look at the sil.



> Yes, and sometimes being a leader means going against your desires and lead your people when the going gets rough. When they need you the most.


I do not agree, being a leader is look for what is best, if the people you comand, are in the wrong way you duty is to let them see and try to get them in the right choice.



> Didn't Finarfin "owed" something to his people?


sorry I am not sure I undestand what you mean , Are you saying that it was his duty to reamind with his people?


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## Maedhros (Apr 3, 2002)

> The Valar would have do something if the Noldor had not acted like they did, look at the sil.


Actually, the Valar have very slow reacting time. Look at how long it took them to finally capture Melkor before the coming of the Elves. And he was only one Vala. Perhaps they would have waited for a thousand years.



> I do not agree, being a leader is look for what is best, if the people you comand, are in the wrong way you duty is to let them see and try to get them in the right choice.


Why couldn't he have done that in ME. Why didn't he tried to save the majority of his people. Why did he "abandon" them.



> sorry I am not sure I undestand what you mean , Are you saying that it was his duty to reamind with his people?


I'm saying that because he was a "noldorian" prince, it was his "duty" to lead them (a part of them at least). I know of Fingolfin, but that doesn't free him of his responsability. The Noldor who stayed in ME had the Valar, the ones that went to ME had only those princes of the House of Finwe.


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## Camille (Apr 3, 2002)

about the Valar, Let me look for the quote of the sil, I will post it at night ( I am in my work now)
and about the Finarfin choice I think that we both have diferent points of view, I respect yours and I am not trying to make you think in other way, I just want to sate mine. You think he did it wrong because he has to be with his people wheter they were in good path or not.
Loyalty is a good quality but it does not mean that you have to support evil deeds just because you have to "stay with your people"
As I have said Finarfin went back to Valinor because the kinslaying and he did want to be part of it, remember that his wife was from the Teleri. neither Fingolfin nor finarfin went willingly.


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## Bucky (Apr 3, 2002)

Maedhros:

Just because Morgoth had emptied Angband doesn't mean that many, even most of his troops wouldn't have been able to retreat back into their fortress if 'the Eldar had won the day'.
Common military history would indicate they would've been able to.
And, Glaurung had retired from the battle already due to the knife wound from Azaghal, so he'd be waiting afterwards too.....

Now, by your way of thinking, the Valar waiting was wrong? Correct?

So, after 9-11, George Bush should have ordered us to nuke Afghanistan on 9-12? 

>>>They did more than any other kindred of the Eldar that stayed in Valinor. 

I would disagree, as the Vanyar were among those who OVERTHREW Morgoth and LIVED.


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## Maedhros (Apr 3, 2002)

> Now, by your way of thinking, the Valar waiting was wrong? Correct?


The Valar had a history of waiting in engaging against Melkor. The Valar should have been more thorough after they had caught Melkor the first time. Searching Angband, etc.
The Valar knew it was Melkor, they should have acted more quickly and decisively.



> Just because Morgoth had emptied Angband doesn't mean that many, even most of his troops wouldn't have been able to retreat back into their fortress if 'the Eldar had won the day'.


The Eldar, in such a battle would have "destroyed" most of his minions, thereby making an attack on Anggand entirely possible and with very high possibilities of victory.




> as the Vanyar were among those who OVERTHREW Morgoth and LIVED.


The Vanyar were helped by: The Noldor in Valinor and the Valar.
Certainly, the Noldor who went to ME were more courageous than the Valar and better warriors.
Name one Vanyar who could beat: Feanor, Fingolfin, Fingon, Maedhros, Turgon or Finrod in single combat.


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## Grond (Apr 4, 2002)

> _The Valar had a history of waiting in engaging against Melkor. The Valar should have been more thorough after they had caught Melkor the first time. Searching Angband, etc. The Valar knew it was Melkor, they should have acted more quickly and decisively._


Why?? Both the Elves and the Valar are immortal. What does it matter if it takes them 10 years or 1000 years? Time is on their side!!


> _The Eldar, in such a battle would have "destroyed" most of his minions, thereby making an attack on Angband entirely possible and with very high possibilities of victory._


Attacks and sieges on Angband were never successful. You're either stating your opinion or have a crystal ball that the author didn't give us.


> _Do you have a fascination with G.W. Bush? 2 posts in a row._


As I noted in your post (in red type), this type of comment is both unnecessary and unrelated to the conversation. Please refrain from inviting conflict.


> _The Vanyar were helped by: The Noldor in Valinor and the Valar. Certainly, the Noldor who went to ME were more courageous than the Valar and better warriors. Name one Vanyar who could beat: Feanor, Fingolfin, Fingon, Maedhros, Turgon or Finrod in single combat._


First off, what on Earth would make you think the Noldor were more courageous than the Valar and better warriors. That's like comparing an ant to an elephant. The Noldor were nothing when compared to the Valar. Heck, the Valar were as gods. Second, please name me one Vanyar who couldn't have beaten Feanor, Fingolfin, Fingon, Maedhros, Turgon or Finrod in single combat. You can't, because the fighting abilities of the Faithful Vanyar were never written about in the Sil. I would imagine that the loyal Vanyar were quite valiant and skilled fighters, else their host would not have been effective in defeating Morgoth's forces. But... we'll never know and... you'll never know.


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## Bucky (Apr 4, 2002)

>>>> Do you have a fascination with G.W. Bush? 2 posts in a row. ***snide and unnecessary remark. Please post on subject and don't get
personal!***Grond 

There was NOTHING snide or personal about it.

I think YOU are being a little judgemental.
You really have no way of knowing what my motives are, do you Grond? 
 

I was simply using similar real-life examples to establish my point in a fictitious world where we are speculating as if it had really existed.
That's all. 

BTW, drop me a PM if you want to debate this issue any further.


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## Chymaera (Apr 4, 2002)

Finarfin made the right choice.

He followed till the Kin-Slaying, then seeing this repented his sin and returned home with like-minded of his people.


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## Lord Melkor (Apr 4, 2002)

Finarfin was wise, he understood how hopeless it was to oppose me, he understood that even the entire might of Noldor is no match against greatest of The Ainuri, He Who Arises In Might, Melkor, Lord OF All!


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## Maedhros (Apr 4, 2002)

> As I noted in your post (in red type), this type of comment is both unnecessary and unrelated to the conversation. Please refrain from inviting conflict.


I want to make it known that i didn't meant this as an insult to Bucky. That was not my intention. I apologize for it.
Is this strike one ?



> Why?? Both the Elves and the Valar are immortal. What does it matter if it takes them 10 years or 1000 years? Time is on their side!!


Of course does it matter, the more time that Melkor is free to do his work, the more evil he can do (the more harm he can do to the world). I thought this was understood and a logical conclusion. 



> Attacks and sieges on Angband were never successful. You're either stating your opinion or have a crystal ball that the author didn't give us.


If the Eldar had won the day, the forces of Angband would have been "very" debilitated and therefore make the possiblity of a successful bid at a siege very possible. That's just common sense.



> First off, what on Earth would make you think the Noldor were more courageous than the Valar and better warriors. That's like comparing an ant to an elephant. The Noldor were nothing when compared to the Valar. Heck, the Valar were as gods. Second, please name me one Vanyar who couldn't have beaten Feanor, Fingolfin, Fingon, Maedhros, Turgon or Finrod in single combat. You can't, because the fighting abilities of the Faithful Vanyar were never written about in the Sil. I would imagine that the loyal Vanyar were quite valiant and skilled fighters, else their host would not have been effective in defeating Morgoth's forces. But... we'll never know and... you'll never know.


I mispoke (mistype), i meant to say the Noldor were more courageous than the Vanyar.
Oh, but i do know. I was there remember, me and my brother bested some guards and took the silmarils.
It would have taken more than a "couple" of Vanyars to defeat me.


> There Maedhros in time was healed; for the fire of life was hot within him, and his strength was of the ancient world, such as those possessed who were nurtured in Valinor. His body recovered from his torment and became hale, but the shadow of his pain was in his heart; and he lived to wield his sword with left hand more deadly than his right had been.


Need i say more.


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## Maedhros (Apr 4, 2002)

> He followed till the Kin-Slaying, then seeing this repented his sin and returned home with like-minded of his people.


He never did left Valinor, so he technically never left home, just Tirion the fair.
Yes, what a great prince. He left the "majority" of his people. What about his allegiance to them.
Let's see:
1. Little host that remained in Valinor (Tirion), they actually didn't need much supervision or guidance in the Realm of the Valar.

2. The majority of his hosts went foward to ME. Those are the ones that he as a prince should have "guided" them to see their mistakes and prevent the "destruction" of his people. His sons understood this. (Finrod, Orodreth). See the case of Orodreth. He wanted to stay in Valinor, he argued against Feanor, but still after the Kinslaying of Alqualonde, he remained faithful to the "majority" of his people.


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## Camille (Apr 4, 2002)

> If the Eldar had won the day, the forces of Angband would have been "very" debilitated and therefore make the possiblity of a successful bid at a siege very possible. That's just common sense.


Mmm are you talking about the Unnumerable tears battle where it is said that maybe in that time the Noldor would have defeated melkor's host? if it is so that was just a possiblity it might happened! but it did not because Tolkien did not want it.


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## Maedhros (Apr 4, 2002)

Dear Camille:

I'm talking about the battle of Nirnaeth Arnoediad, where I was betrayed by Ulfang the Black.


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## Camille (Apr 4, 2002)

Yes thar was!! but finally the noldor did not succed


> The majority of his hosts went foward to ME. Those are the ones that he as a prince should have "guided" them to see their mistakes and prevent the "destruction" of his people.


he did see the mistakes and that is why he left the voyage, what else he could do?? another kinslaying to make the Noldor come back of course no! again : Loyalty is a good quality but it does not mean that you have to support evil deeds just because you have to "stay with your people"


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## Maedhros (Apr 4, 2002)

> Loyalty is a good quality but it does not mean that you have to support evil deeds just because you have to "stay with your people"


Fingolfin sacrificed his life to "stay with his people".


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## Camille (Apr 4, 2002)

Mmm you are a little right but I am sure what Fingolfin wanted was to see Feanor again you know what I mean...


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## Grond (Apr 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Bucky _
> *>>>> Do you have a fascination with G.W. Bush? 2 posts in a row. ***snide and unnecessary remark. Please post on subject and don't get
> personal!***Grond
> 
> ...


I should just delete your post Bucky, but I won't because then someone might completely misunderstand what I was doing. The warning I gave was to Maedhros and not to you. Maedhros is the one who questioned ***do you have a fascination with George Bush? 2 posts in a row.*** I simply rebuked him for getting personal. Read the posts more thoroughly and I will try to post my warnings where they are more clearly understood.

No harm... no foul!!


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## Maedhros (Apr 4, 2002)

> you are a little right but I am sure what Fingolfin wanted was to see Feanor again you know what I mean...


No, Camille, remember that after the Kinslaying Fingolfin didn't "abandon" his people like Finarfin and he still had intention of going to ME.
It was after the burning of the ships (treason of Feanor) that he wanted to see Feanor again.


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## Bucky (Apr 4, 2002)

Grond,

As I said in my PM to you, if a public apology was necessary I would post one.....

I am usually up late, so I just saw the posted part in red & didn't bother to read thoroughly as I wanted to go to sleep soon.

So, I WAS hasty, a hard area for me, but God's working on me. 
It's like He keeps allowing me to get in situations where I can put my foot in my mouth....

Or, react with patience & integrity.

The answer He's trying to get from me is being careful with my words.

So, here I am making a point about reacting too quickly in an emotional response, and I do exactly that...

I also realized afterwards that I shouldn't have mentioned 9-11, as it is so recent & there may be someone up here who was directly effected by losing a loved one.
It's one thing to compare Sauron with Hitler, that was 60 years ago.
9-11 was 6 months ago.

So to any I may have offended, sorry.
To you Grond, my sincerest appologies for my abrupt & unfounded reaction to your comment.


I think, & you seem to echo this in your post, we're all a bit leary of what we say or how it's taken after the Harad biz.....


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## Varda (Apr 5, 2002)

I don't see why loyalty to his people is a good trait if it involves following something he doesn't believe in. The whole journey to middle earth was a mess. The entire event was based upon the greed of Feanor for his silmarils. Of course, they are beautiful and hold the light of Aman, but what was their real worth? If Yavannah had gotten them back, could she have restored the trees? Maybe Finarfin realised this and decided that the perilous journey to middle earth wasn't worth it. Just because his people were too blind to realise the stupidity of Feanor, doesn't mean Finarfin should have to suffer for it.


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## Maedhros (Apr 5, 2002)

> I don't see why loyalty to his people is a good trait if it involves following something he doesn't believe in.


A prince has an "obligation" with his people.


> The entire event was based upon the greed of Feanor for his silmarils.


Have you forgotten than Melkor killed the High King of the Noldor Finwe.


> Then Fëanor ran from the Ring of Doom, and fled into the night; for his father was dearer to him than the Light of Valinor or the peerless works of his hands; and who among sons, of Elves or of Men, have held their fathers of greater worth?





> Just because his people were too blind to realise the stupidity of Feanor, doesn't mean Finarfin should have to suffer for it.


Finarfin took the easy way out. Remember, the Noldor almost beat the armies of Melkor in the Fifth Battle.


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## Camille (Apr 5, 2002)

Finarfin did not take the easy way out, he took the only right one, he realized that! maybe Fingolfin did too but remember Fingolfin and Finarfin were two diferent person they were brothers ok, but with diferents qualities, for finafin was enough the kinslaying and the warning of the Vala to realize that the journey will be a mess (as finally was) but to fingolfin that was not enough, and after that was the ship thing will he return? no of course no!! he was very angry and with a reason.


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## Maedhros (Apr 5, 2002)

Finarfin quit the road after the Kinslaying, while Fingolfin still went ahead.
These events were prior to the burning of the ships in Losgar.


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## Camille (Apr 5, 2002)

Yes, what you said is ok, I only disagree with the "quit" part but I have answer you in my last post


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## Maedhros (Apr 5, 2002)

So Camille, we agree that we don't agree or we agree.


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## Camille (Apr 5, 2002)

ha ha ha  We do not agree!! I think finarfin dis it right and you do not


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## Maedhros (Apr 5, 2002)

Camille, so what you are saying is that it was a good thing for Finarfin to "leave" his people.


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## Camille (Apr 5, 2002)

I do not think leave is the right word, ok let see:
1. moment: Feanor speaking to the Noldor, everybody gets excited, fingolfin do not want the things'll get worst, try to calm down the noldor, Finarfin does the same.

2nd moment, the noldo decided to go away, fingolfin and finarfin are not eager to go but they would follow their people!! they will not leave them with Feanor  

3rd. moment: The kinslaying!!! Feanor get the ships by force, Uinen (?¡?)gets angry, very bad! some of them were drowned, they still go on, the teleri kinsman (finarfin) mourning  

4th moment: mandos speaks, courses everybody!!! finarfin realize the voyage will be a mess, some noldor agree they depart (maybe hoping that the others will follow their example!!

5 th moment: The Noldor can not go all in the ships, some of them repent, murmuran (do not remember the English word!!) againts feanor that must be the fingolfin and his people of course not the silmarilli fans!!! (Feanor folk) they are thinmking mandos courses us, Oh Eru, what we have done!!!! The Teleri!!! if you give them a little time they will go back to Valinor... following Finarfin folk who did it right!!

6th Feanor hear them and before the things gets worts, leave the noldor (fingolfin and his folk) burning of the ships.

7th Aja!!! now there is no way back!!! Feanor will pay for that!!! we want to see him again we must go to ME!!! 
 

Ok that is how I came to the conclusion that Finarfin did it right


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## Maedhros (Apr 5, 2002)

Hmmmm. Camille. Point 7 does not have anything to do with Finarfin.

Let me tell you what a true and noble prince should have done:


> Moreover Fingon and Turgon were bold and fiery of heart, and loath to abandon any task to which they had put their hands until the bitter end, if bitter it must be.



Regardless of the burning of the ships, Fingolfin would have followed Feanor because he gave him his word:


> Then Fëanor took his hand in silence; but Fingolfin said: 'Half-brother in blood, full brother in heart will I be. Thou shalt lead and I will follow. May no new grief divide us.'


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## Beleg Strongbow (Apr 5, 2002)

i would have stayed


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## Maedhros (Apr 5, 2002)

Beleg you went to the battle of Nirnaeth Arnoediad.


> save Mablung and Beleg, who were unwilling to have no part in these great deeds.


Remember.


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## Eonwe (Apr 5, 2002)

Didn't most of the people of Finarfin stay behind in Aman? So would he be abandoning his people??


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## Maedhros (Apr 5, 2002)

> But in that hour Finarfin forsook the march, and turned back, being filled with grief, and with bitterness against the House of Fëanor, because of his kinship with Olwë of Alqualondë; and many of his people went with him, retracing their steps in sorrow, until they beheld once more the far beam of the Mindon upon Túna still shining in the night, and so came at last to Valinor. There they received the pardon of the Valar, and Finarfin was set to rule the remnant of the Noldor in the Blessed Realm. But his sons were not with him, for they would not forsake the sons of Fingolfin; and all Fingolfin's folk went forward still, feeling the constraint of their kinship and the will of Fëanor, and fearing to face the doom of the Valar, since not all of them had been guiltless of the Kinslaying at Alqualondë. Moreover Fingon and Turgon were bold and fiery of heart, and loath to abandon any task to which they had put their hands until the bitter end, if bitter it must be. So the main host held on, and swiftly the evil that was foretold began its work.


It says that many of his peole, is that a majority, i don't know. But his sons didn't went with him and i gather from that that they had quite a following.
Remember, Fingolfin was the ruler of the Noldor in Tirion and I guess that most of the people were of his host. (Which included Finarfin's)
The fact is that Finarfin forsook the "greater" part of the Noldor.


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## Eonwe (Apr 6, 2002)

well, did he make up for it marching with his people in the War of Wrath?

I suppose that's not good enough either 

How did he, as a prince, abandon his people, when he led many of them back to Aman? Just because your dad Feanor screws everything up, does he need to follow him?


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## Maedhros (Apr 6, 2002)

> How did he, as a prince, abandon his people, when he led many of them back to Aman?


Hmmmm. Technically, they never left the coast of Alqualonde, so they never left the isle.
The scenarios:
1. Stay with the Valar: the Noldor faced no real danger.
2. Go to ME: the Noldor there did face real danger.
Isn't a prince suposed to be with his people.

Hmmmmm. Haven't we had this discussion in another place.


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## Varda (Apr 7, 2002)

> A prince has an "obligation" with his people.


I suppose I just don't understand this obligation you speak of. I still don't think Finarfin should go against his own beliefs. The Noldor should have had more sense, anyway, and after being involved in the kinslaying, should have turned back as well.



> Have you forgotten than Melkor killed the High King of the Noldor Finwe.


Is that the reason why the rest of the Noldor wanted to go? Either way, I don't really believe that revenge is the answer, and maybe Finarfin didn't either. The Noldor should have trusted the Valar to help them defeat Morgoth. Taking on Morgoth alone for revenge was foolish.



> Finarfin took the easy way out. Remember, the Noldor almost beat the armies of Melkor in the Fifth Battle.


As Camille pointed out, Finarfin took the right way out. And as you keep saying, the Noldor came close to beating the armies of Melkor, but the important thing is, they didn't.


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## Maedhros (Apr 7, 2002)

> I suppose I just don't understand this obligation you speak of. I still don't think Finarfin should go against his own beliefs.





> But Finarfin spoke softly, as was his wont, and sought to calm the Noldor, persuading them to pause and ponder ere deeds were done that could not be undone; and Orodreth, alone of his sons, spoke in like manner.


Well, Orodreth, his son who also was against the coming of the Noldor to ME, but he assumed his "responsability" and led his people to ME.



> Is that the reason why the rest of the Noldor wanted to go?


No, it was for this also:


> Long he spoke, and ever he urged the Noldor to follow him and by their own prowess to win freedom and great realms in the lands of the East,





> As Camille pointed out, Finarfin took the right way out.


That's her opinion (and i respect her),but it's not a fact.



> the Noldor came close to beating the armies of Melkor, but the important thing is, they didn't.


Well, who knows what would have happened if Finarfin had went to ME. But we will never know, will we.


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## Varda (Apr 7, 2002)

> Well, who knows what would have happened if Finarfin had went to ME. But we will never know, will we.


I don't think one elf could have made much of a difference against Morgoth's army.


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## Maedhros (Apr 7, 2002)

> I don't think one elf could have made much of a difference against Morgoth's army.





> Then Fingolfin beheld (as it seemed to him) the utter ruin of the Noldor, and the defeat beyond redress of all their houses; and filled with wrath and despair he mounted upon Rochallor his great horse and rode forth alone, and none might restrain him. He passed over Dor-nu-Fauglith like a wind amid the dust, and all that beheld his onset fled in amaze, thinking that Oromë himself was come: for a great madness of rage was upon him, so that his eyes shone like the eyes of the Valar. Thus he came alone to Angband's gates, and he sounded his horn, and smote once more upon the brazen doors, and challenged Morgoth to come forth to single combat. And Morgoth came.
> That was the last time in those wars that he passed the doors of his stronghold, and it is said that he took not the challenge willingly; for though his might was greatest of all things in this world, alone of the Valar he knew fear. But he could not now deny the challenge before the face of his captains; for the rocks rang with the shrill music of Fingolfin's horn, and his voice came keen and clear down into the depths of Angband; and Fingolfin named Morgoth craven, and lord of slaves. Therefore Morgoth came, climbing slowly from his subterranean throne, and the rumour of his feet was like thunder underground. And he issued forth clad in black armour; and he stood before the King like a tower, iron-crowned, and his vast shield, sable on-blazoned, cast a shadow over him like a stormcloud. But Fingolfin gleamed beneath it as a star; for his mail was overlaid with silver, and his blue shield was set with crystals; and he drew his sword Ringil, that glittered like ice.
> Then Morgoth hurled aloft Grond, the Hammer of the Underworld, and swung it down like a bolt of thunder. But Fingolfin sprang aside, and Grond rent a mighty pit in the earth, whence smoke and fire darted. Many times Morgoth essayed to smite him, and each time Fingolfin leaped away, as a 'lightning shoots from under a dark cloud; and he wounded Morgoth with seven wounds, and seven times Morgoth gave a cry of anguish, whereat the hosts of Angband fell upon their faces in dismay, and the cries echoed in the Northlands.
> But at the last the King grew weary, and Morgoth bore down his shield upon hint Thrice he was crushed to his knees, and thrice arose again and bore up his broken shield and stricken helm. But the earth was all rent and pitted about him, and he stumbled and fell backward before the feet of Morgoth; and Morgoth set his left foot upon his neck, and the weight of it was like a fallen hill. Yet with his last and desperate stroke Fingolfin hewed the foot with Ringil, and the blood gashed forth black and smoking and filled the pits of Grond.
> Thus died Fingolfin, High King of the Noldor, most proud and valiant of the Elven-kings of old


That was just one elf, and it so happens that it was his brother.


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## Camille (Apr 8, 2002)

> Regardless of the burning of the ships, Fingolfin would have followed Feanor because he gave him his word:



Hello, back form the weekend , ok about this, I believe that fingolfin was an excelent elf and brother but at last he realize that Feanor did not care much, or nothing about his word or his brother and his people, he did not count them, as you remember your father told you!
I do not have the right quote but you are wrong when you said that fingolfin followed Feanor because his word, he did it first for his people (as Finarfin did it) and after that because the burning of the ships, of course fingolfin wanted to see Feanor again.




> Well, who knows what would have happened if Finarfin had went to ME. But we will never know, will we.


Yes we will never know....



> Hmmmmm. Haven't we had this discussion in another place. /QUOTE]
> Yes!!! we have it a lot of times but it is always interesting


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## Maedhros (Apr 8, 2002)

Camille,


> but you are wrong when you said that fingolfin followed Feanor because his word,





> Then Fëanor took his hand in silence; but Fingolfin said: 'Half-brother in blood, full brother in heart will I be. Thou shalt lead and I will follow. May no new grief divide us.'


Remember, this is a Noldorian elf. When he gave his word, he kept it to the end.


> and all Fingolfin's folk went forward still, feeling the constraint of their kinship and the will of Fëanor


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## Camille (Apr 8, 2002)

I am not sure but were those the times before the burning of the ships??


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## Varda (Apr 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Maedhros _
> *
> 
> That was just one elf, and it so happens that it was his brother. *



I know Fingolfin was brave and valiant in fighting Morgoth himself, but he still didn't kill him, and didn't win the war that way


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## Maedhros (Apr 8, 2002)

> I know Fingolfin was brave and valiant in fighting Morgoth himself, but he still didn't kill him, and didn't win the war that way


At least he tried.


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## Turgon (Apr 19, 2002)

Maedhros, the point of my post about the Burning of the Ships at Losgar was not merely to point out that this was the wrong thing to do. But that you are blaming Finarfin for abandoning his people, when Feanor was guilty of the exact same thing - more so in fact - Finarfin left the main host of the Noldor because, I believe, his great wisdom gave him the foresight to see what the outcome of The March would be, that is to say the near total ruin of the Noldor. Feanor on the other hand *not only deserted his people, he betrayed them too...* and *he* was the Leader of the March. Feanor's responsibilty to the Noldor far outweighs that of Finarfin's... Feanor was the Eldest son of Finwe and at the time in command of the Noldor's 'crusade'... How many Noldor remained after the First Age, not many I think - all of their Kingdoms were destroyed in Beleriand - the only significant population of Noldor Elves left alive was in Tirion... A leader's first responsibility is to do what is best for his people, something Feanor never came to understand, but something, thankfully, Finarfin the *Wise* understood perfectly... That's why he returned... and far from attributing blame to Finarfin, he should be praised - For thus was the Royal House of Finwe preserved.


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## Camille (Apr 19, 2002)

Go Finarfin go!! hey! have you noticed that you are talking about the subject with Varda too... ?


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## Turgon (Apr 19, 2002)

Hehe! - We should form a Finarfin Fan Club, Camille...


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## Maedhros (Apr 19, 2002)

> Feanor on the other hand not only deserted his people, he betrayed them too... and he was the Leader of the March. Feanor's responsibilty to the Noldor far outweighs that of Finarfin's...


Yes, it was wrong, but the ones he left were cursing him.


> Therefore Fëanor halted and the Noldor debated what course they should now take. But they began to suffer anguish from the cold, and the clinging mists through which no gleam of star could pierce; and many repented of the road and began to murmur, especially those that followed Fingolfin, cursing Fëanor, and naming him as the cause of all the woes of the Eldar.





> . Let those that cursed my name, curse me still, and whine their way back to the cages of the Valar! Let the ships burn!


Granted, this is no excuse, but they were cursing him.


> Finarfin the Wise understood perfectly... That's why he returned... and far from attributing blame to Finarfin, he should be praised - For thus was the Royal House of Finwe preserved.


Yes, he returned to Valinor with the protection of the Valar. Yes the Noldor that stayed remained alive, but the ones who stayed didn't need his guidance and protection, those that left did. We will never know how many lives of HIS PEOPLE he could have saved that went to ME. As I said before, his responsability was for the MAJORITY of his people and not only for the FEW who remained in Valinor. His sons Finrod and Orodreth, were also against the exile, yet they still went on and never abandoned it's people.


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## Camille (Apr 19, 2002)

he he Finarfin fan club   


> We will never know how many lives of HIS PEOPLE he could have saved that went to ME.


yes but we know that he save many of the Noldor with Vanyar host


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## Turgon (Apr 19, 2002)

Good answers Maedhros, but you've still not answered the question about Feanor's duty to his people... Also what could Finarfin have done to save his people in ME? I agree with you that Finarfin's wisdom could of been of great help to the Noldor in their battle against Morgoth, yet I think it would just have prolonged their sufferings... and The Curse of the Noldor would have found him too ere the end - another casualty on the list... 
All the efforts of the Noldor in Beleriand were in vain... all of them... The task the Noldor set out to achieve - i.e. recovery of the Silmarils - only Beren (a man) and Luthien (half Maia - half Teleri) managed accomplish - to a third of a degree, anyway - and this was accomplished as an act of love, not of war or revenge... Finarfin perhaps understood this.
On another note - Finarfin, was in my mind at least, more than half a Vanyar... Perhaps his love of the Valar, conflicted with his 'duty' to the Noldor... like many men in our own world who in war have to choose between God and Country, or personal belief and 'patriotic duty' Finarfin choose his beliefs - he returned to the Valar - a conscientious objector if you like - strange idea, but worth thinking about.


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## Maedhros (Apr 19, 2002)

> but you've still not answered the question about Feanor's duty to his people...


Feanor as the rightful High King of the Noldor, had a duty to all of his people. I didn't like his decision that day and I told him:


> But when they were landed, Maedhros the eldest of his sons, and on a time the friend of Fingon ere Morgoth's lies came between, spoke to Fëanor, saying: 'Now what ships and rowers will you spare to return, and whom shall they bear hither first? Fingon the valiant?'
> Then Maedhros alone stood aside, but Fëanor caused fire to be set to the white ships of the Teleri.


Yet, he gave those Noldor who cursed him and wanted to return to Valinor a great will to come to ME.


> yet I think it would just have prolonged their sufferings


We will never know, will we. Fingolfin battled Morgoth one on one. He was his brother.


> Perhaps his love of the Valar, conflicted with his 'duty' to the Noldor


And silly old me, i thought that he was a noldorian prince. His DUTY was to his people first.


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## Camille (Apr 19, 2002)

Maedhros: 


> Yet, he gave those Noldor who cursed him and wanted to return to Valinor a great will to come to ME.


Are you saying that Feanor was thinking in what was better for his people when he gave those Noldor the will to go to ME?
Mmm I think that Feanor was looking for revange (ah!!! my dictionary.. vengaza you know) and not giving to his people new lands.


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## Maedhros (Apr 19, 2002)

> Are you saying that Feanor was thinking in what was better for his people when he gave those Noldor the will to go to ME?


No, but he ended up giving them will to come to ME.


> Mmm I think that Feanor was looking for revange (ah!!! my dictionary.. vengaza you know) and not giving to his people new lands.


Yes he was looking for revenge, but he also was thinking of new lands to rule.


> Long he spoke, and ever he urged the Noldor to follow him and by their own prowess to win freedom and great realms in the lands of the East


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## Turgon (Apr 19, 2002)

Firstly - Maedhros, Finarfin was Half Vanyar/Half Noldor and as 'Alone among the Noldor and the Noldorin princes he and his descendents had golden hair, derived from his mother Indis' it is not unreasonable to say that his personality was like his mother's too i.e. peaceloving and gentle...(youngest son, mother's little golden boy...)

Secondly - *Duty* again! And you've still not answer the question about *Feanor's Duty*. So if Finarfin puts his own beliefs before *Duty*, then he _must_ be doing wrong. Okay...



> But in that hour Finarfin forsook the march, and turned back, being filled with grief and bitterness against the *House of Feanor*, because of his kinship with Olwe of Aqualonde; and many of his people went with him*, retracing their steps in sorrow...



*that's to say the *House of Finarfin*

This passage suggests to me that

I) Finarfin had good reason to leave the March, Finarfin's wife was the daughter of Olwe and the sons of Olwe were his friends. The kin that were slain were his own. Reason enough.
II) Finarfin did not desert _his_ people*, and that any members of the House of Finarfin that continued on the march went on of there own accord... surely their *duty*, right or wrong, was to stay with their Prince and follow him back to Valinor. But fortunately free men are not slaves to *duty* and may follow their hearts where ever they will...

By the way: Feanor gave the other Noldor the 'Will' to cross to Middle-Earth? That's where they were going in the first place. Feanor deprived them of the means to get to ME, forcing them to cross the Helcaraxe - in the process of which many of those people were killed. Not really a point in his favour...

So says the Finarfin Fan Club


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## Maedhros (Apr 19, 2002)

> And you've still not answer the question about Feanor's Duty.


Yes I have. Read the 2 post above this.


> I) Finarfin had good reason to leave the March, Finarfin's wife was the daughter of Olwe and the sons of Olwe were his friends. The kin that were slain were his own. Reason enough.


Well, so were Finrod and Orodreth, yet they would not abandon the MAJORITY of his people.


> II) Finarfin did not desert his people, and that any members of the House of Finarfin that continued on the march went on of there own accord... surely their duty, right or wrong, was to stay with their Prince and follow him back to Valinor. But fortunatly free men are not slaves to duty and may follow their hearts where ever they will...


Stay with the prince, isn't it backwards, that a prince should be there to lead his people. His duty was to his people, but as you say he was gentle and peace loving.


> Feanor gave the other Noldor the 'Will' to cross to Middle-Earth?


If at that point Feanor would have given them a choice, there would be lots of them that would have returned to Tirion.


> So says the Finarfin Fan Club


Funny, but i don't see too many members using the name Finarfin. Have you ever thought of Finarfin in such way before this thread?


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## Camille (Apr 19, 2002)

> Funny, but i don't see too many members using the name Finarfin. Have you ever thought of Finarfin in such way before this thread?


   yes funny indeed, the question was not for me but I have to say that I have always liked Finarfin anf fingolfin.. maybe a Children of Indis Fan club  
But again I think Finarfin was not leaving his people as I have said it is very probably that if Feañor would have delay the cross of the ice the noldor would have given a second thought to what they were doing.
But Feanor went to ME and burned the ships and after that they shall meet him again!!! 
so Turgon Children of Indis, or finarfin only club


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## Turgon (Apr 19, 2002)

Okay Maedhros, you did answer my question about Feanor's Duty, sorry...
- and yes the Finarfin Fan Club thing is kind of a joke, I believe in good-humoured debates, not heated arguements...
- and no my arguement is not backwards - I didn't say that Finarfin's people had a duty to him or that Finarfin had a duty to his people, but that duty is a chain and people are free to choose what they wish to do for right or wrong... Finrod and Orodreth follow the Host of Fingolfin, not because of anything so silly as duty but because of the love they bore for the sons of Fingolfin...

Camille - Children of Indis all the way!!!


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## Camille (Apr 19, 2002)

Children of Indis ok!!


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## Turgon (Apr 19, 2002)

Hey Camille, maybe we should change our user titles to Children of Indis Fan Club... what do you thing? Crazy or Sane...?


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## Camille (Apr 19, 2002)

ha ha ha    It will be ok for a while... You know I was thinking about it ... The people would start: What age are those???


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## Maedhros (Apr 19, 2002)

Well then, go ahead and change them.


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## Grond (Apr 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Maedhros_
> *Well, so were Finrod and Orodreth, yet they would not abandon the MAJORITY of his people.*


Finrod and Orodreth were wrong as were the MAJORITY of the people. As a leader, your duty is to show your subjects the CORRECT path, not the one they necessarily want to follow. Maedhros, all of your arguments support the Paths of Feanor, which have already been proven through the words of the Silmarillion to have been the "wrong paths".


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## Gothmog (Apr 21, 2002)

Finarfin made the correct choice when he turned back after the Kin-slaying at Aqualonde. After all they were going to do battle with a Vala with a host of the Noldoin of Vainor and possibly the Sindarin Elves of Middle-earth. But judging by the start made by Feanor then if any of the Sindar diagreed then Feanor would just as happily fight with them!

There were no other allies in Middle-earth for them to call on, so with such a despicalble start to the march why should any who had not been involved in the Kin-slaying follow the arch Elf-Killer Feanor?

You cannot use the fact the Men were to be their allies as at that point they knew little of Men, and that only through the Lies of Melkor! Also they were going to do battle with Men for the realms of Middle-earth anyway! "No Other Race Shall Oust Ours!"

Princes have Many Duties. All revolve around their people. One is to truth and that can make one seemingly leave their people. The same goes for Stewards.


> And for my part, I shall not wholly fail of my task, though Gondor should perish, if anything passes through this night that can still grow fair or bear fruit and flower again in days to come. For I also am a steward. Did you not know?'


 Gandalf talking with Denethor, The Return of the King: Minas Tirith.

Finarfin ensured that at least some of the Noldor 'Survived' the effects of the Kin-slaying.


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## Maedhros (Apr 21, 2002)

> Finrod and Orodreth were wrong as were the MAJORITY of the people. As a leader, your duty is to show your subjects the CORRECT path, not the one they necessarily want to follow.


Your duty as a prince is to your people, not the minority but the MAJORITY of them. Fingolfin and Fingon understood this. He chose to remain with the protection of the Valar.


> all of your arguments support the Paths of Feanor, which have already been proven through the words of the Silmarillion to have been the "wrong paths".


Ironic, is it not, that if the Silmarillion have ended differently, then you would support my arguments.
My line of reasoning has nothing to do with how the story ended. A prince, any prince has a royal duty to his subjects. If he knew that a certain part, a minority of his people, he should have left them in Valinor and he himself tried to reason with the MAJORITY of his people to help them in their moment of greatest need and not "abandon" them in ME, being he himself safe in Tirion.


> After all they were going to do battle with a Vala with a host of the Noldoin of Vainor and possibly the Sindarin Elves of Middle-earth. But judging by the start made by Feanor then if any of the Sindar diagreed then Feanor would just as happily fight with them!


Do not forget the Second Battle. It clearly states that the orcs that had sieged Cirdan's havens were slained by Celegorn's forces and that the Sindar elves helped them in that battle.


> Finarfin ensured that at least some of the Noldor 'Survived' the effects of the Kin-slaying.


This argument is a total fallacy. Finarfin could have very well have the elves that do not went to ME remain in Valinor and he himself could have come to ME.


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## Grond (Apr 21, 2002)

Once again Maedhros, you seem to look upon the House of Finwe as a democracy... it was not. The Princes of the Noldor were the leaders... not the followers. It was up to them to set the correct (right) path. Feanor chose the wrong path out of anger, greed, lust, revenge, yada, yada, yada. Fingolfin followed because he had promised his older brother that he would not usurp his decisions again. Finarfin made no such promise and "owed" it to his people to make the correct choice. The "correct" choice was to stay in Valinor and let the Valar deal with their own in their own way.

Please keep this argument going though because the way you rationalize Feanor's actions is very entertaining. Had he murdered Thingol and taken both Melian and Luthien as wives, I'm sure you would have found a "rationalization" for it.


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## Maedhros (Apr 21, 2002)

Grond.


> Finarfin made no such promise and "owed" it to his people to make the correct choice. The "correct" choice was to stay in Valinor and let the Valar deal with their own in their own way.


When you say to his people, do you mean the MAJORITY or the MINORITY of his people.
Fact:
1. Those who stayed were the minority of the Noldor and they had the protection of the Valar.
2. Those who left were the MAJORITY of his people and they had only the protection of their own. A noble prince, such as Fingolfin or Orodreth, who both opposed the coming to ME, understood that their first obligation was to their people who were in their most dire need and not those who stayed in Valinor.


> Please keep this argument going though because the way you rationalize Feanor's actions is very entertaining.


Thanks.
Remember that Thingol, before he knew of the Kinslaying in Alqualonde, he denied entrace to his realm to the Noldor, except those of the House of Finarfin. Shame on him, because Finwe was his friend.


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## Gothmog (Apr 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Maedhros _
> *
> Do not forget the Second Battle. It clearly states that the orcs that had sieged Cirdan's havens were slained by Celegorn's forces and that the Sindar elves helped them in that battle.
> 
> This argument is a total fallacy. Finarfin could have very well have the elves that do not went to ME remain in Valinor and he himself could have come to ME. *



What Second Battle? Finarfin made his choice after the ONLY Battle, the Kin-slaying at Aqualonde. You are still using events that had not happened to bolster your argument.

The argument is in your oppinion a fallacy, in fact, as Finarfin could not know the future he had to base his decisions on what had happened and go from there. All he had to work with was a megalomaniac who would go to any lengths including the mass murder of his own kind to get his way! From what we know up to that point, I think that Feanor has shown what is likely to happen in Middle-earth.


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## Maedhros (Apr 22, 2002)

Ah. How quickly they forget.


> There were no other allies in Middle-earth for them to call on, so with such a despicalble start to the march why should any who had not been involved in the Kin-slaying follow the arch Elf-Killer Feanor?


I was referring to this.
Do not forget the Second Battle. It clearly states that the orcs that had sieged Cirdan's havens were slained by Celegorn's forces and that the Sindar elves helped them in that battle.
Can you say allies.


> The argument is in your oppinion a fallacy, in fact, as Finarfin could not know the future he had to base his decisions on what had happened and go from there. All he had to work with was a megalomaniac who would go to any lengths including the mass murder of his own kind to get his way!


So Finarfin, as a prince, would have left his people to this "elf" as you say is not the correct attitude of a prince. Your argument gives more reason that point to Finarfin going to ME and helping his people with such an "elf" as you said it.


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## Ancalagon (Apr 22, 2002)

> Finarfin could not know the future he had to base his decisions on what had happened and go from there



Let's be absolutely clear on this. Finarfin made his choice immediately after hearing the prophecy of the Doom of the Noldor, spoken by Mandos on the rock above the shore.

Now, if you are of a clear heart and sound mind, someone needed to speak up for those whose hearts quailed at the words of Mandos. His words gave all a choice, Finarfin asnwered the words spoken to him by seeking the forgiveness of the Valar, for both himself and those who felt grieved by the actions already taken. Not all were sheep, willing to be led to the slaughter, Finarfin realised this and chose the wisest path for his people. If many chose not to follow him, then on their heads be it, for the words of Mandos were not too be taken lightly; read them again, clearly and concisely and tell me they do speak volumes about the folly that the Noldor were going to pay for;



> 'Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains. On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar Leith from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also. Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass. The Dispossessed shall they be for ever. 'Ye have spilled the blood of your kindred unrighteously and have stained the land of Aman. For blood ye shall render blood, and beyond |man ye shall dwell in Death's shadow. For though Eru appointed to you to die not in Eä, and no sickness may assail you, yet slain ye may be, and slain ye shall be; by weapon and by torment and by grief; and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you. And those that endure in Middle-earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world an with a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after. The Valar have spoken.



These words are the most terrible and fearsome that the Elves could possibly hear, for their fate had been cast, and it was not pleasant. They were banished, outcasts from the land and protection of the keepers of Arda. Their protectors and teachers had turned their backs upon them and only a few, led by Finarfin, made the right decision to seek their forgiveness. Dismissing the words of Manwe, spoken by Mandos is beyond comprehension, Finarfin and others knew this, they chose the right path and lived in peace for their wisdom. Feanor and his followers walked on, into the darkness and payed the dearest price for their trouble. Not for glory or retribution, for the Valar still had to come to their aid in the end, but becuase they beleived themselves mightier than the powers who helped create them and the earth in which they lived. 
Finarfins choice was from the heart and he answered the call of those to whom he owed his allegiance, no-one else.


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## Turgon (Apr 22, 2002)

Ah well, regardless of all the excellent arguements posted here... Personally I'm glad Finarfin forsook the March to Middle-Earth... as it meant that at least one of Finwe's sons was there at the last to see Justice served upon his Father's killer...


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## Maedhros (Apr 22, 2002)

> but becuase they beleived themselves mightier than the powers who helped create them and the earth in which they lived.


You never know until you tried. Ancalagon, the elves were created by Eru alone and not the Ainur.


> For the Children of Ilúvatar were conceived by him alone; and they came with the third theme, and were not in the theme which Ilúvatar propounded at the beginning, and none of the Ainur had part in their making.





> Finarfins choice was from the heart and he answered the call of those to whom he owed his allegiance, no-one else.


Funny, i thought that his allegiance was to the MAJORITY of his people. It's interesting that people consider Finarfin choice the correct one and yet none of the people who do, consider him the greatest elf.


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## Ancalagon (Apr 22, 2002)

> but becuase they beleived themselves mightier than the powers who helped create them and the earth in which they lived.



Ok, forgive the choice of words based on the pace with which I wrote the response. Note the spelling, that was a dead giveaway



> Funny, i thought that his allegiance was to the MAJORITY of his people. It's interesting that people consider Finarfin choice the correct one and yet none of the people who do, consider him the greatest elf.



Was not the choice that he made, by going against the grain, standing against the majority, not following the mob, a more difficult and brave decision. Finarfin was not a coward, but he was wise beyond that of those who walked away to face a life of misery and suffering. Finarfin lost much that moment, his own children included. Yet, he stayed because he knew that his people were wrong, Mandos told them and history showed them. He may not be the greatest Elf, that's for others to decide, but he was one of the bravest and wise, for he was parted from those he loved most, because his sense of loyalty transcended that of actions made in haste and anger, the same haste and anger that had seen the blood-letting of his own kind, upon the hallowed ground of Aqualonde. 

Finarfin and those who stayed with him, did so because the sin they had committed was above any that Melkor had done against them. No amount of time in exile could right that wrong. Do not confuse greatness in this case, Finarfin chose a path that was great in its own right.


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## Maedhros (Apr 22, 2002)

Ancalagon the Black, the mightiest of the dragon-host


> Was not the choice that he made, by going against the grain, standing against the majority, not following the mob, a more difficult and brave decision.


I would add a more confortable one too.


> because his sense of loyalty transcended that of actions made in haste and anger, the same haste and anger that had seen the blood-letting of his own kind, upon the hallowed ground of Aqualonde.


Silly me, i thought he was a Noldorian prince. I thought that his loyalty belonged to his people. In this case, tha majority of them.


> He may not be the greatest Elf, that's for others to decide


Yet, you have chosen Finrod Felagund, who went to ME. Notice that he didn't abandon the majority of his people.


> Do not confuse greatness in this case, Finarfin chose a path that was great in its own right.


Then why don't you consider him the greatest.


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## Grond (Apr 22, 2002)

Maedhros, you have used the following argument five times at the least and you have not yet responded to my attack on it. You posted


> *Silly me, i thought he was a Noldorian prince. I thought that his loyalty belonged to his people. In this case, tha majority of them.*


He was a Noldoran prince and that is why he chose not to follow Feanor's path. A Monarch/leader's job isn't to follow his subjects into folly; rather, it is to lead them to the wisest decision. Those that don't follow are revolting against the rule. In this case, their were three camps, each affiliated with one of the sones of Finwe. Finarfin was the wisest in leading those of his people who wanted to forsake the journey to Midde-earth back to Aman. 

BTW, I have another new idea for a thread. Be on the look out for it and yes...... it begins with the name Feanor.


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## Turgon (Apr 22, 2002)

If it's - 'Who here thinks that Feanor liked to wear women's underwear, and have his wife call him Lucy.' I sure it would make a great debate...


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## Maedhros (Apr 23, 2002)

> Maedhros, you have used the following argument five times


Can you say consistency! 


> He was a Noldoran prince and that is why he chose not to follow Feanor's path. A Monarch/leader's job isn't to follow his subjects into folly; rather, it is to lead them to the wisest decision. Those that don't follow are revolting against the rule.


Well Feanor was the technically the High King of the Noldor. Finarfin choice or objective would be that as soon as he saved those Noldor that stayed in Valinor, he should have TRIED to help those that went to ME and help them in their moment of greatest need. His sons understood this.
And it so happens that the ones who went to ME where the MAJORITY. So he in a sense, abandoned the MAJORITY of his people. There should be no difference between Finarfin's following and that of his brother Fingolfin. Wasn't Fingolfin the ruler of the Noldor in Finwe's absence.


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## Turgon (Apr 23, 2002)

> Can you say consistency!


Not really...
You've argued and argued that Finarfin was wrong to abandon the 'majority' of his people on their journey to Middle-Earth... but when questioned about Feanor's desertion of his people at Losgar you say that most of the people he left behind would have returned to Valinor anyway...??? Doesn't this mean than Finarfin's returning to Valinor was in accordance with the wishes a good many of the Noldor (not just the minority) and that he choose the right path... Finarfin was wrong to desert his people, for something so trifling as his beliefs... but it's okay for Feanor to desert them because they were calling him names...???


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## Maedhros (Apr 23, 2002)

If I can quote myself:


> Yet, he gave those Noldor who cursed him and wanted to return to Valinor a great will to come to ME.





> You've argued and argued that Finarfin was wrong to abandon the 'majority' of his people on their journey to Middle-Earth... but when questioned about Feanor's desertion of his people at Losgar you say that most of the people he left behind would have returned to Valinor anyway...???


Nope, I'm not saying that. I thought that what Feanor did was wrong.


> Finarfin was wrong to desert his people, for something so trifling as his beliefs... but it's okay for Feanor to desert them because they were calling him names...???


They were both wrong. Finarfin for abandoning the MAJORITY of the Noldor and Feanor also.
There is no inconsistency.


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## Turgon (Apr 23, 2002)

> by Maedhros
> If at that point Feanor would have given them a choice, there would be lots of them that would have returned to Tirion.


This is the quote I was thinking of.


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## Maedhros (Apr 23, 2002)

> If at that point Feanor would have given them a choice, there would be lots of them that would have returned to Tirion.


Notice the conditional verb "would have". This is not a certainity.


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## Grond (Apr 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Maedhros _
> *
> Notice the conditional verb "would have". This is not a certainity. *


NO Maedhros, "would have" is a definitive verb... "might have" would be a conditional verb. You need to go back to Grammar class. 

You also are arguing in a conflicted manner. On the one hand, you want to be sure and promote and even enhance Feanor's actions while all the while condemning his actions. One cannot have their cake and eat it too (so to speak). Either Feanor was right (correct) in his decisions and actions or he was wrong. You seek to pick and choose his wondrous gifts to illustrate his greatness, yet blame others for his negative actions. He was either great or he was not. His actions in leading the Flight of the Noldor and the Kinslaying of Aqualonde alone make his less than great. No amount of defense will ever be able to overcome those actions which forever tarnished his name in the History of Middle-earth.


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## Maedhros (Apr 23, 2002)

> NO Maedhros, "would have" is a definitive verb... "might have" would be a conditional verb. You need to go back to Grammar class.


Ouch. 


> You seek to pick and choose his wondrous gifts to illustrate his greatness, yet blame others for his negative actions. He was either great or he was not. His actions in leading the Flight of the Noldor and the Kinslaying of Aqualonde alone make his less than great. No amount of defense will ever be able to overcome those actions which forever tarnished his name in the History of Middle-earth.


I never said he was perfect. I'm the first to admit that the Kinslaying in Alqualonde and the desertion were wrong. I even said that in the book.
Yet all of his other's deeds were "sans pareil", he had no real rival. He was simply the best. He was unique. Oh, this is the Finarfin's choice thread. Not who is the greatest elf ever.


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## Gothmog (Apr 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Maedhros _
> *Ah. How quickly they forget.
> 
> I was referring to this.
> ...



May I ask that since no Elf or Man is able to remember that which is to come, just what is it that has been forgotten?

I ask once more "What Second Battle?" You are using things that happened after the Noldor reached Middle-earth to bolster your arguments about a decision that was made before the Noldor left Aman!

If one goes against ones own principles then one is not a leader in any way. Sometimes the only way to lead is by example. This is what Finarfin did, if many of his people chose not to follow this was up to them. The onus in such a case is on the Followers NOT on the Leader.


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## Maedhros (Apr 24, 2002)

Ok. What I'm saying is this:


> After all they were going to do battle with a Vala with a host of the Noldoin of Vainor and possibly the Sindarin Elves of Middle-earth. But judging by the start made by Feanor then if any of the Sindar diagreed then Feanor would just as happily fight with them!


But in fact, when Feanor first arrived in ME, Celegorn and his forces were aided by Cirdan's Forces in the second battle. They were allies in that time. It did happen and it proves that the Sindar could have been allies with Feanor and Co.


> If one goes against ones own principles then one is not a leader in any way.


So Finrod, Fingon, Turgon and Fingolfin, etc were not leaders, or is it that they didn't have the same principles as Finarfin. Even Orodreth that shared his fathers refusal to go to ME still went because he had a responsability to the MAJORITY of his people. There is also the love for one's people.


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## Gothmog (Apr 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Maedhros _
> *Ok. What I'm saying is this:
> 
> But in fact, when Feanor first arrived in ME, Celegorn and his forces were aided by Cirdan's Forces in the second battle. They were allies in that time. It did happen and it proves that the Sindar could have been allies with Feanor and Co.
> ...



But in fact this had not happened.

Some had different views which they followed and therefore were leaders. Orodreth NO.


> Thus they broke off the hunt and returned to Nargothrond, and Lúthien was betrayed; for they held her fast, and took away her cloak, and she was not permitted to pass the gates or to speak with any save the brothers, Celegorm and Curufin. For now, believing that Beren and Felagund were prisoners beyond hope of aid, they purposed to let the King perish, and to keep Lúthien, and force Thingol to give her hand to Celegorm. Thus they would advance their power, and become the mightiest of the princes of the Noldor. And they did not purpose to seek the Silmarils by craft of war, or to suffer any others to do so, until they had all the might of the Elf-kingdoms under their hands. Orodreth had no power to withstand them, for they swayed the hearts of the people of Nargothrond; and Celegorm sent messengers to Thingol urging his suit.


 The Silmarillion: of Beren and Luthien.

I am using a quote of a future event only to show that Orodreth was not that good a leader and in fact Finrod Felegund had similar problems with the sons of the arch Elf-Killer.


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## Maedhros (Apr 24, 2002)

I know that the fact had not yet happened, but i used it to illustrate that Feanor host could have gained some ME elves as allies.


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## Gothmog (Apr 24, 2002)

No, you used it to argue that Finarfin should have gone to Middle-earth on the strength of what happened later. He had only what had happened before to used in his decision.

And if Thou can stand not for thine own belief's, then one can but bend the knee to anothers.

This is not the way of a true leader.


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## Maedhros (Apr 25, 2002)

> No, you used it to argue that Finarfin should have gone to Middle-earth on the strength of what happened later.


Nope i used it to prove that the exiles led by Feanor could have gained some Sindar elves as allies.


> But in fact, when Feanor first arrived in ME, Celegorn and his forces were aided by Cirdan's Forces in the second battle. They were allies in that time. It did happen and it proves that the Sindar could have been allies with Feanor and Co.


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## Gothmog (Apr 25, 2002)

*But in fact, when Feanor first arrived in ME, Celegorn and his forces were aided by Cirdan's Forces in the second battle.* They were allies *in that time.* It* did * happen and it *proves* that the Sindar could have been allies with Feanor and Co. 

The points in Bold show where you are using what was to happen to say that for these reasons Finarfin should have gone to Middle-earth. Until they got to Middle-earth they had no proof of what would happen so far as Allies were concerned. They may have believed that such things would happen but the only thing that they were sure of is that any creature that in any way refused to do the bidding of Feanor would be put to the sword. Finarfin saw this and showed his people the way to go, if they chose not to follow that was up to them.

And I repeat:

If Thou can stand not for thine own belief's, then thou can but bend the knee to anothers. 

This is not the way of a true leader.


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## Maedhros (Apr 25, 2002)

> The points in Bold show where you are using what was to happen to say that for these reasons Finarfin should have gone to Middle-earth.


Actually, this had nothing to do with Finarfin. I don't think that future events should be taken into account for his decision. The fact that his sons chose to go to ME speak volumes to me.


> Finarfin saw this and showed his people the way to go, if they chose not to follow that was up to them.


Sadly, it was the MINORITY of his people.


> If Thou can stand not for thine own belief's, then thou can but bend the knee to anothers.
> This is not the way of a true leader.


Well, my friend FF, who didn't want to go to ME and was repulsed by the kinslaying chose to go to ME and help his people in their greatest moment of need, because he loved them. This sounds to me the way of a true leader.


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## Gothmog (Apr 25, 2002)

> Well, my friend FF, who didn't want to go to ME and was repulsed by the kinslaying chose to go to ME and help his people in their greatest moment of need, because he loved them. This sounds to me the way of a true leader.



Sounds to my like the "True Leader" has a simple speach to make.

Baaaaaa. Baaaaaa BAAAAAA.


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## Maedhros (Apr 25, 2002)

> Sounds to my like the "True Leader" has a simple speach to make.
> Baaaaaa. Baaaaaa BAAAAAA.


I don't get it.


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## Grond (Apr 25, 2002)

> *Baaaaaa. Baaaaaa BAAAAAA*


As in leading the sheep to slaughter.


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## Maedhros (Apr 25, 2002)

> As in leading the sheep to slaughter.


They won the second battle.


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## Grond (Apr 26, 2002)

I think good Gothmog was referring to the Noldor's fate, in general, on Middle-earth which involved gettting their butt's kicked more times than I can count. It was necessary for the Mythology but a very unwise and desperate action (The Flight of the Noldor) which was motivated by greed, anger, hatred, retribution, revenge and a bunch more nasty emotions. But we've been through this before on another thread.


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## Maedhros (Apr 26, 2002)

> which was motivated by greed, anger, hatred, retribution, revenge and a bunch more nasty emotions.


And yet they dared to go and achieve the impossible. You never know until you try.


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## Gothmog (Apr 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Maedhros _
> *
> They won the second battle. *


But they got slaughtered in the War!


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## Turgon (Apr 26, 2002)

> ...they dared to go and achieve the impossible. You never know until you try....


Hey, I like your reasoning Maedhros... that makes Ted Sandyman the best Hobbit ever for trying to bring progress to the Shire... and it makes Gimli the best Dwarf ever for trying to score with Galadriel... nice!


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## Maedhros (Apr 26, 2002)

> Hey, I like your reasoning Maedhros


Me too. 


> and it makes Gimli the best Dwarf ever for trying to score with Galadriel... nice!


He gets my vote.


> that makes Ted Sandyman the best Hobbit ever for trying to bring progress to the Shire


That makes him rare indeed. But he never did create anything new like some elf that i know.
We are shifting threads now.


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## Grond (Apr 26, 2002)

Well, who built that new fine mill in the shire if not for good old Ted the Sand Man? Silmarils or a mill. All the same.


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## Confusticated (Apr 10, 2003)

Welcome back, _Finarfin's Choice_.


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