# Random ponderings



## Elfarmari (Dec 10, 2002)

I'm re-reading LotR once again, and as usual I found some interesting things. 



> Away in the East swung Remmirath, the Netted Stars, and slowly above the mists Borgil rose, glowing like a jewel of fire. THen by some shift of airs all the mist was drawn away like a veil, and there leaned up, as he climbed over the rim of the world, the Swordsman of the Sky, Menelvagor with his shining belt. The Elves all burst into song.


I think Remmirath= the Pleiades, Borgil = Aldebaran or Betelgeuse, and Menelagor = Orion. just a random observation, as I'm interested in astronomy.




> When at last he had got to bed, Frodo could not sleep for some time . . . Eventually he fell into a vague dream, in which he seemed to be looking out of a high window over a dark sea of tangled treees. Down below among the roots there was the sound of creatures crawling and snuffling. He felt sure they would smell him out sooner or later.
> Then he heard a noise in the distance. AT first he thought it was a great wind coming over the leaves of the forest. THen he knew that it was not leaves, but the sound of the Sea far-off; a sound he had never heard in waking life, though it had often troubled his dreams. Suddenly he found he was out in the open. There were no trees after all. He was on a dark heath, and there was a strange salt smell in the air. Looking up he saw before him a tall white tower, standing alone on a high ridge. A great desire came over him to climb the tower and see the Sea. He started to struggle up the ridge towards the tower: but suddenly a light came in the sky, and there was a noise of thunder.


 For some reason this has always brought to mind Numenor, and the Meneltarma. I also see this as having to do with Frodo's ultimate journey to Valinor. Maybe this is a sign of Ulmo's continuing involvement in ME, in giving Frodo hope. Do anyone else hae any opinions on this?

Also, another random question. Why does the Morgul-knife which the Nazgul stabbed Frodo with disappear when Aragorn picks it up?


----------



## Anamatar IV (Dec 10, 2002)

because all blades perish that pierce the dread king?  

I dont know about the Morgul blade really.


----------



## Eriol (Dec 11, 2002)

Yes, the stars are definitely our own (or should I say your own, since here in the South, as Aragorn said, 'the stars are strange'). About the Morgul-knife, I suppose it is an effect of the enchantment in it, it is more a 'spiritual' weapon than an ordinary knife, and it would vanish after having accomplished its purpose -- inserting a splinter in the body of the victim to turn him into a slave. Gives you a chill in the bones...


----------



## Ithrynluin (Dec 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Elfarmari _
> *I'm re-reading LotR once again, and as usual I found some interesting things.
> 
> I think Remmirath= the Pleiades, Borgil = Aldebaran or Betelgeuse, and Menelagor = Orion. just a random observation, as I'm interested in astronomy.*



I'm an astronomy buff myself Elfarmari! 

You look at the night sky on a cloudless night and see the Stars that Varda Tintallë made? Now isn't that just the best feeling? 

Menelvagor is definitely Orion, the huntsman of the winter sky. 
Here's something from the Encyclopedia of Arda:


> To the Elves, this constellation had huge symbolic importance, representing an eternal guardian of the World. In the oldest tradition, The Lost Tales, Menelvagor is the enemy of the exiled Melkor, protecting Arda from his return. In later developments of the story, the stars came to represent none other than Túrin Turamabar, who was fated to return from the dead and face Melkor in the Last Battle. This tradition can be seen in the words of the Silmarillion, where Menelvagor (there called Menelmacar) 'forebodes the Last Battle that shall be at the end of days.' (3 Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor).



Interesting isn't it? I'm not sure about Borgil being Betelgeuse though for the simple reason that it gets mentioned twice then, as a single star and as a part of Orion. But most likely it is Betelgeuse. It could also be Aldebaran (Taurus), Anatares (Scorpio; meaning "anti-Mars", because you can easily confuse this reddish star with Mars), or even Mars itself (fiery red!).

I agree that the Remmirath are the Seven sisters - the Pleiades.

There is also the Sickle of the Valar, which equates to Ursa Major (the Big Dipper).

In the Sil, Helluin is also mentioned, meaning "ice blue" which is a very good name for this star (Sirius). This is the brightest star in the sky and also the fairest IMHO.


----------



## Lantarion (Dec 12, 2002)

Yes, it's very interesting to discover how thoroughly Tolkien really explored out world, in order to make his invented one sem more real.


----------



## Elfarmari (Jan 22, 2003)

*some more random ponderings. . .*

I guess I should clarify my question about the morgul-blade. Why did the blade disappear _when Aragorn picked it up?_ Why not after it stabbed Frodo?

Glorfindel:


> It was my lot to take the Road, and I came to the Bridge of Mitheithel, and left a token there, nigh on seven days ago. Three of the servants of Sauron were upon the Bridge, but they withdrew and I pursued them westward. I came also upon two others, but they turned away southward.


"I found some ringwraiths, but they got scared and ran away." (This is one reason I really like Glorfindel. He obviously is not afraid of the ringwraiths, and they are scared of him)



> (in Imladris, after Gandalf tells Frodo what happened at the Ford) "Yes, it all comes back to me now," said Frodo: "the tremendous roaring. I thought I was drowning,with my friends and enemies and all. But now we are safe!"
> Gandalf ooked quickly at Frodo, but he had shut his eyes.


Why the quick glance? Was Gandalf worried Frodo would refuse to bear the ring any longer?

I just like this part:


> 'Hurray!' cried Pippin, springing up. 'Here is our noble cousin! Make way for Frodo, Lord of the RIng!' 'Hush!' said Gandalf from the shadows at the back of the porch. 'Evil things do not come into this valley; but all the same we should not name them. The Lord of the Ring is not Frodo, but the master of the Dark Tower of Morder, whose power is again stretching out over the world! We are sitting in a fortress. Outside it is getting dark.' 'Gandalf has been saying many cheerful things like that,' said Pippin. 'He thinks I need keeping in order. . . . '


and this one:


> You needn't,' said Bilbo. 'As a matter of fact it was all mine. Except that Aragorn insisted on my putting in a green stone. He seemed to think it important. I don't know why. Otherwise he obviously thought the whole thing rather above my head, and he said that if I had the cheek to make verses about Earendil in the house of Elrond, it was my affair. I suppose he was right.


 How would you like to be Elrond, and have your father be the morning star? And have your immortal daughter marry a mortal man who is the 63rd (I think) generation descendent of your brother?

I love Tolkien's random descriptions!


> A wind began to blow chill from the Misty Mountains to the east. The Hunter's Moon waxed in the night sky, and put to flight all the lesser stars. But low in the South one star shone red. Every night, as the Moon waned again, it shone brighter and brighter. Frodo could see it from his window, deep in the heavens, burning like a watchful eye that glared above the trees on the brink of the valley.





> The others cast themselves down upon the fragrant grass, but Fodo stood awhile still lost in wonder. It seemed to him that he had stepped through a high window that looked on a vanished world. A light was upon it for which his language had no name. All that he saw was shapely, but the shapes seemed at once clear cut, as if they had been first conceived and drawn at the uncovering of his eyes, and ancient as if they had endured for ever. He saw no colour but those he know, gold and white and blue and green, but they were fresh and poignant, as if he had at that moment first perceived them and made for them names new and wonderful In winter here no heart could mourn for summer of for spring. No blemish or sickness or deformity could be seen in anything that grew upon the earth. On the land of Lorien there was no stain.


 Could this be considered Arda Healed? As Arda would have been had Morgoth never corrupted it?

Treebeard of Saruman:


> 'There is no curse in Elvish, Entish, or the tongues of Men bad enough for such treachery. Down with Saruman!'


 Ouch! That's harsh!

When Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli meet Gandalf the White, and are discussing Frodo:


> 'Not alone,' said Legolas. 'We think that Sam went with him.' 'Did he!' said Gandalf, and there was a gleam in his eye and a smile on his face. 'Did he ideed? It is news to me, yet it does not surprise me. Good! Very good!. . . '


 How did Gandalf know of Frodo's doings, and know nothing of Sam's? Does this have something to do with Galadriel's observation about the link between ringbearers? Or is this simply an oversight on Gandalf's part, not thinking to consider Sam?

Faramir to Frodo:


> 'If ever beyond hope you return to the lands of the living and we re-tell our tales, sitting by a wall in the sun, laughing at old grief, you shall tell me then. Until that time, or some other time beyond the vision of the Seeing-stones of Numenor, farewell!'


 Denethor is not the only one to still remember the Palantiri. Do you think this reflects only a common phrase, or some actual conscience thought on Faramir's part?



> ‘So be it!' cried Denethor. ‘But not with your death only, Lord Faramir: with the death also of your father, and all of your people, whom it is your part to protect now that Boromir is gone.' " 'Do you wish then,' said Faramir, 'that our places had been exchanged?'
> 'Yes, I wish that indeed,' said Denethor. 'For Boromir was loyal to me and no wizard's pupil. He would have remembered his father's need, and would have not squandered what fortune gave. He would have brought me a mighty gift.'
> For a moment Faramir's restraint gave way. ‘I would ask you, my father, to remember why it was that I, not he, was in Ithilien. On one occassion at least your counsel has prevailed, not long ago. It was the Lord of the City that gave the errand to him.' 'Stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed for myself,' said Denethor. 'Have I not tasted it now many nights upon my tongue, foreboding that worse yet lay in the dregs?'. . . . .
> And now Faramir was gone again. ‘They give him no rest,'some murmured. ‘The Lord drives his son too hard, and now he must do the duty of two, for himself and for the one that will not return.' . . . In truth Faramir did not go by his own choosing. But he Lord of the City was master of his Council, and he was in no mood to bow to others. . . . [Faramir]‘I do not oppose your will, sire. Since you are robbed of Boromir, I will go and do what I can in his stead -- if you command it.' ‘I do so,' said Denethor. ‘Then farewell!' said Faramir. ‘But if I should return, think better of me!' ‘That depends on the manner of your return,' said Denethor.


 Faramir and Aragorn are the most noble men in the tale (IMHO), but they get so much abuse! Faramir's father basically tells him he'd rather he be dead, and then proceeds to question his wisdom on everything, and make him go back to battle when he should be resting. Aragorn is insulted by stupid men, and thought ill of by the people whos lives he is protecting, at great risk to his own. This is called dedication!

My favorite part of the entire book:


> "Out of doubt, out of dark to the day's rising
> I cam singing in the sun, sword unsheathing.
> To hope's end I rode and to heart's breaking:
> Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!" [Eomer]
> ...


----------



## Elfarmari (Jan 22, 2003)

> ‘Master Meriadoc,' said Aragorn, ‘if you think that I have passed through the mountains and realm of Gondor with fire and sword to bring herbs to a careless soldier who throws away his gear, you are mistaken. If your pack has not been found, then you must send for the herb-master of this House. And he will tell you that he did not know that the herb you disire had any virtues, but that it is called westmansweed by the vulgar, and galenas by the noble, and after adding a few half-forgotten rhymes that he does no understand, he will regretfully inform you that there is non in the House, and he will leave you to reflect on the history of tongues. And so now must I. For I have not slept in such a bed as this, since I rode from Dunharrow, nor eaten since the dark before dawn.'. . . . Pippen remained behind. ‘Was there every anyone like him?' he said. ‘Except Gandalf, of course. I think they must be related. My dear ass, your pack is lying by your bed, and you had it on your back when I met you. He saw it all the time, of course.'. . . .


 Another place I really admire Aragorn. This guy just passed through the paths of the dead, fought thousands of orcs etc, just saved a couple of lives, and still has the strength and presence of mind to be kind and sarcastic to a wounded hobbit.

The fall of Sauron and the fall of Saruman are described in much the same way. I'm tired of typing right now, but they both involve a shadow rearing up to a great height, looking towards the West, and then becoming impotent and driven away by the wind. It fits: they're both Maiar who have turned to Evil, and do not deserve the pity of the Valar.

In Rivendell, when Bilb asks Frodo what has become of his ring:


> I have lost it, Bilbo dear,' said Frodo. 'I got rid of it, you know.'




If anyone actually had the patience to read through all of this, congratulations!


----------



## lossenandunewen (Jan 22, 2003)

maybe the Morgul sword dissolved because Aragorn was the only one who could rightfully destroy Sauron. Or atleast he's the only one Sauron is afriad of... Something about the Isildur/Sauron origin must have something to do with it 

and the Elrond thing, about the 63rd generation relative -- if thier that distant, i don't think the kids will feel the effects of inbreeding


----------



## Elfarmari (Jan 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by lossenandunewen _
> and the Elrond thing, about the 63rd generation relative -- if thier that distant, i don't think the kids will feel the effects of inbreeding  [/B]



I was thinking more about the age thing, that your brother has that many descendents, and you have three children! Also for Arwen, she's over 2,500 years old, and Aragorn's somewhere around 75! Slight difference, there.


----------



## lossenandunewen (Jan 22, 2003)

yea true, but she looks great for her age! i think when it comes to elf years versus man years they don't really count that


----------



## Elfarmari (May 31, 2003)

something I just noticed: in Appendix B of LotR in the Tale of Years, it says that Gandalf fell from the Bridge of Khazad-dum on January 15 or 3019. On the 23rd of January, Gandalf pursued the Balrog to the peak of Zirakzigil. On the 25th he cast down the Balrog. He fell for 8 or 9 days! And then he ran up stairs and fought for two days. wow.


----------



## Lantarion (Jun 1, 2003)

Eek! 
That makes the falling-scene in the movie seem like nothing, doesn't it?


----------



## Elfarmari (Jul 2, 2004)

Some more things I've been wondering about. . .

At the Council of Elrond, Gandalf says of Tom Bombadil: 


> And now he is withdrawn into a little land, within bounds that he has set, though none can see them, waiting perhaps for a change of days, and he will nto step beyond them.


I wonder where Tom used to wander? How long has it been since he fixed the bounds of his own little land? Did he used to wander throughout the Shire only, or beyond that? [yes, I know there is no way to answer these questions.]

How did Gollum get out of Moria? Wouldn't the guards be extra-vigilant after the Fellowship escaped? Or would they be less vigilant because they were busy hunting for the Fellowship?

After Isengard has been destroyed and Saruman has had his staff broken, Gandlaf says, 


> Unhappy fool! He will be devoured, if the power of the East stretches out its arms to Isengard. We cannot destroy Orthanc from without, but Sauron -- who knows what he can do?


 If the Ents and even Gandalf cannot destroy Orthanc, what power does Sauron possess that could do so?

While looking at the Tale of Years in the Appendices of the Lord of the Rings, I noticed that Denethor was only one year older than Aragorn. Perhaps this has something to do with Denethor's hatred of Aragorn? At the time of the War of the Ring, Denethor is an old man, while Aragorn is still in his prime, with over a hundred years left to live. While Denethor has not seen Aragorn in many, many years, he might have realized at least that Thorongil was of more pure Numenorean blood than he and hence had a greater longeivity.

Any thoughts?


----------



## Starbrow (Jul 13, 2004)

Saruman was a very powerful wizard. He did things, such as create the Uruk-Hai, that I'm sure were considered impossible. Gandalf would be wise to fear his power and what he did with it.

About your quote on when Aragorn comes to the battle: I get chills everytime I read it. It's my favorite part also.


----------



## Arthur_Vandelay (Jul 13, 2004)

Elfamari said:


> How did Gandalf know of Frodo's doings, and know nothing of Sam's?



It might, as you suggest, have something to do with the link between the ringbearers. When Frodo was upon the Seat of Seeing, Gandalf's was the "voice" urging him to take off the Ring. He may have surmised that Frodo was, at that point, alone in the Quest.



Starbrow said:


> Saruman was a very powerful wizard. He did things, such as create the Uruk-Hai, that I'm sure were considered impossible.



It is unclear whether Saruman actually created the Uruk-hai (although the film implies that he did). Saruman, however powerful in his own right, was always considered a poor imitator of Sauron, who _did_ create (or "breed") Uruk-hai. The Uruk-hai who belonged to Saruman were probably won over to his service; I don't think he had the skill to fashion Uruk-hai of his own, although he certainly tried. The fruit of Saruman's labours in this field is probably best represented by the Southerner at Bree: a pitiful half-orc, but certainly no Uruk-hai.

Anyway, that's my theory. I'm sure that this has been debated thoroughly elsewhere on the Forum.


----------



## Elfarmari (Nov 21, 2004)

After Frodo is stabbed by the Nazgul on Weathertop, Aragorn finds the sword with which he was stabbed. The blade withers away in the sunlight, and then, _"He sat down on the ground, and taking the dagger-hilt laid it on his knees, and he sang over it a slow song in a strange tongue." _
What did he sing, and why?


----------



## Astaldo (Nov 23, 2004)

Maybe he tried to understand if he could heal Frodo or not. But this is just an opinion.


----------



## JPMaximilian (Nov 30, 2004)

Elfarmari said:


> something I just noticed: in Appendix B of LotR in the Tale of Years, it says that Gandalf fell from the Bridge of Khazad-dum on January 15 or 3019. On the 23rd of January, Gandalf pursued the Balrog to the peak of Zirakzigil. On the 25th he cast down the Balrog. He fell for 8 or 9 days! And then he ran up stairs and fought for two days. wow.



After hitting the ground maybe Gandalf was hurt for 8 or 9 days.

Where in the books does it say that Saruon created the Uruk-Hai? I thought that was something that only Saruman did?


----------



## Barliman Butterbur (Nov 30, 2004)

Elfarmari said:


> After Frodo is stabbed by the Nazgul on Weathertop, Aragorn finds the sword with which he was stabbed. The blade withers away in the sunlight, and then, _"He sat down on the ground, and taking the dagger-hilt laid it on his knees, and he sang over it a slow song in a strange tongue." _
> What did he sing...?



:: heavy down-home blues, acoustic guitar/harmonica ::

_Been down so long
it looks like up to meeeee...

Oh yeah

Said, been down so long
it looks like up to meeeee...

Mrs. Maggot, where are you?
Come back and set me freeeeeee..._

Barley


----------

