# Orcs: Inherently evil?



## Elfarmari (Nov 14, 2002)

Was Morgoth able to so corrupt the race of Men (assuming orcs were bred from men, let's not get into that debate) that they were unable to turn to good? There are no 'good' orcs in all of Tolkien's work, but there are numerous 'evil' men and elves. If Morgoth was able to so completely debase men, why were the Valar apparently unable elevate elves to the point where they were unable to turn to evil?


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## aragil (Nov 14, 2002)

I dunno. Personally I saw 'good' traits in Shagrat and especially Ugluk *swoon*. I'm not even sure that Tolkien intended for these Orcs to have anything redeemable about them, but there you are. I see these two Orc captains as being honorable and loyal in their own way, their loyalty is just extremely misplaced. There's a lot of stuff in Letters about how Orcs represent the negative side of human nature, yada yada, Orcs were found in the 'good' countries of the world. Also Morgoth's Ring (HoME v. 10) has quite a bit about the Orcs and their origins (Orcs from humans? It is to laugh, harshly), as well as how they should be treated by the free peoples in the event of capture. I don't have my books right now, but my opinion is that they were not irredeemably evil. 
Why couldn't the elves be elevated beyond temptation???!! If there were no true temptation, then what would be the value of free will? I'm sure Tolkien would say that the corrupting influence of Morgoth only served to elevate the Children of Illuvatar's gift of Free Will, as all things only serve to glorify Eru in the end.


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## Incánus (Nov 15, 2002)

The Orcs are twisted versions of Elves although at some point Saruman crossed that race with men. I don't think that Orcs are irredeemable but they don't take very well to kind natures. They seem to have a sort of thieves honor code among them and this could, I think, be exploited to turn them to good. That is assuming someone would take the time and not kill them first.


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## Snaga (Nov 15, 2002)

I agree with Aragil in part. Saruman bred some human 'goodness' into Ugluk, hence his overall wuss-iness! Shagrat is pure [email protected]$$ though not as much as Grishnakh... OK ... wrong thread but hey!

This is an interesting question since actually what is visible in us orcs is some semblance of concern for ourselves a collective group, rather than being purely nihilistic. Thus we act as a unit, and can be disciplined if we have a strong leader. I have observed similar behaviour in humans(and to your mind this is a 'good' characteristic) , but overall we orcs always serve either ourselves or a Dark Lord. We are uninclined to the extreme acts of 'goodness' like love, and selfless behaviour in general. I just dont see the point of that...


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## Lantarion (Nov 15, 2002)

Tolkien's works all deal with the fundamental struggle between good and evil. This is the basic struggle in all of classical fantasy. Orcs are the basic interpretation of simple and utter evil, Elves of good. There have been very, very few Elves who have done so-called 'evil' deeds; at the moment only Fëanor springs to mind, and maybe Eöl. 
But as was said no Orcs has ever been recorded to do anything good.


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## YayGollum (Nov 15, 2002)

Poor orcs. I was thinking about having an RPG character who was one of the first corrupted elves. Those guys were orcs and felt really bad about it. 
Yeah, I don't have a book with me either, but I'm remembering crazy stuffs about it saying that Mel messed with their minds so they were superly afraid and just had to do whatever crazy stuffs he told them to. It says that he messed with them even more later. Something about sticking the desire to do all kinds of evil stuffs in them. Yikes! Poor guys! 
I would say that the very first orcs were nice guys in a bad situation (like poor Smeagol), but that the later orcs had just been messed up so much that they were having fun with evil stuffs. Mel used to be good. Sauron used to be good. The first orcs used to be good. What about the later orcs? Did they even have a conscience? Hard to answer. I still feel sorry for them. *runs away*


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## Proudfoots (Nov 15, 2002)

*Evil is such a harsh term*

could we maybe use 'socially mal-ajusted' or 'poorly adapted for social circumstances'

in fact the racism that i see against orcs is painful, can't we all just love.

sure, they come from abusive homes WAY below the poverty level and their personal hygene poor, but given the chance, can't everyone function in today's accepting society...

i mean, if i can get by from day to day, i am sure orcs could

'foots


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## Wonko The Sane (Nov 15, 2002)

I completely disagree with the notion that orcs are inherently evil.
And this is not just because, as you probably think I'll say, because I know a quite nice and NOT evil orc. (Although he'd never want me to tell anyone so you didn't hear it from me!  )

I forget where it says this but I remember reading a passage that said that the orcs, while obvious [email protected]$$ fighting machines completley devoted to their Dark Lord, were not actually evil per-se.

After the fall of Sauron and the destruction of The One Ring when not induced to fight by an evil ruler the orcs actually lived relatively peaceful lives near that one lake in Mordor. They settled down, built houses and villages, and raised families.
They didn't bother anyone and they just kind of retired from their "evil" ways.
I believe orcs to be corrupt, but not evil. They're wills were very easy to bend towards evil tactics and bloody warfare, but they themselves were not inherently evil. I saw them as kind of two sided. When they have to be, either in the heat of battle or when on a mission for their master, they can be ruthless and mean, but if left to their own devices, and left undisturbed they're really not all that bad.

Feel free to rip my opinion apart now. I expect the entire Dark Legion will come down on me, denounce me, brand me a traitor, and eat my poor little Elvish carcass for a little tea-time snack, but that's how I feel.
I don't really think the orcs were evil, although they perpetrated some quite evil deeds.


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