# Maeglin's Musings



## Maeglin (Feb 7, 2005)

I've just started reading The Hobbit once again, for the 5th time now I believe, and, as always happens, I'm still finding things to ponder anew. I've just finished the first 2 chapters, and I've already found several musings I thought I'd share with you all and see what people have to say about everything. So, I will just use this thread for the whole time I'm going through the book now, and I'll post my latest musings every 2 chapters, leaving time for people to respond if they want to between new posts. Anyway, lets get started! 

*Chapters 1 and 2*  



> It was often said (in other families) that long ago one of the Took ancestors must have taken a fairy wife.



What is a "fairy wife?" An elf, perhaps? 



> "Gandalf, Gandalf! Good gracious me! Not the wandering wizard that gave Old Took a pair of magic diamond studs that fastened themselves and never came undone till ordered?"



That's very out of character for Gandalf, even in this book when his full, serious character was not developed yet, as it would be for LOTR. 



> Suddenly in the wood beyond The Water a flame leapt up - probably somebody lighting a wood-fire - and he thought of plundering dragons settling on his quiet Hill and kindling it all to flames.



A hobbit lighting a wood-fire?! That's much too adventurous, again even for this book when the full nature of hobbits is not quite known, we do know that they hate adventures.



> He charged the ranks of the goblins of Mount Gram in the Battle of the Green Fields....



Any locations for either Mount Gram or the Green Fields?



> Then they came to lands where people spoke strangely, and sang songs Bilbo had never heard before.



Does strangely here mean a strange accent or a strange language? They speak the common tongue in Bree.....this is one to ponder.



> Not far ahead were dreary hills, rising higher and higher, dark with trees. On some of them were old castles with an evil look, as if they had been built by wicked people.



Where in Middle-Earth were they? The only thing they would have seen on the road east of the Misty Mountains that even resembles a castle in the smallest way would be the ruins of the Watchtower of Amon Sul.



> "Yer can't expect folk to stop here for ever just to be et by you and Bert. You've et a village and half between yer, since we come down from the mountains."



What villages were anywhere near where we learn they are in LOTR? There is nothing that close to the Misty Mountains. The only thing I could think of would possibly be a hidden Dunedain village, but somehow I highly doubt that 3 trolls could ever kill 3 Dunedain in a fight, let alone a whole village.

Well thats all I have for now kids. Questions, comments, ideas? I'll post the next couple of chapters in a few days.


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## Wolfshead (Feb 7, 2005)

> What is a "fairy wife?" An elf, perhaps?


I'd say they believe in fairies in the same way we do - simply as part of their mythology and 'fairy'-tales.



> That's very out of character for Gandalf, even in this book when his full, serious character was not developed yet, as it would be for LOTR.


I think Gandalf just enjoyed entertaining. We see that with his fireworks in LOTR. He enjoyed spending time with Hobbits, and that kind of thing would have greatly amused them, thus providing him with enjoyment.



> A hobbit lighting a wood-fire?! That's much too adventurous, again even for this book when the full nature of hobbits is not quite known, we do know that they hate adventures.


Young Hobbits were not unknown to have a bit of fun. Just look at Merry and Pippin.



> Does strangely here mean a strange accent or a strange language? They speak the common tongue in Bree.....this is one to ponder.


Strange accent, I'd say. People in Orkney speak the same language as me, but I can sometimes have trouble understanding them.



> Where in Middle-Earth were they? The only thing they would have seen on the road east of the Misty Mountains that even resembles a castle in the smallest way would be the ruins of the Watchtower of Amon Sul.


Perhaps there were other, smaller forts/watch towers dating back to the days of Angmar that aren't mentioned anywhere else?



> What villages were anywhere near where we learn they are in LOTR? There is nothing that close to the Misty Mountains. The only thing I could think of would possibly be a hidden Dunedain village, but somehow I highly doubt that 3 trolls could ever kill 3 Dunedain in a fight, let alone a whole village.


And that, I think, we put down to the not-entirely-formed idea of Middle-Earth


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## Flame of Udûn (Feb 7, 2005)

Maeglin said:


> Where in Middle-Earth were they? The only thing they would have seen on the road east of the Misty Mountains that even resembles a castle in the smallest way would be the ruins of the Watchtower of Amon Sul.





> The hobbits were glad to leave the cheerless lands and the perilous Road behind them; but this new country seemed threatening and unfriendly. As they went forward the hills about them steadily rose. Here and there upon heights and ridges they caught glimpses of ancient walls of stone, and the ruins of towers: they had an ominous look. Frodo, who was not walking, had time to gaze ahead and to think. He recalled Bilbo's account of his journey and the threatening towers on the hills north of the Road, in the country near the Troll's wood where his first serious adventure had happened. Frodo guessed that they were now in the same region, and wondered if by chance they would pass near the spot.
> 'Who lives in this land?' he asked. 'And who built these towers? Is this troll-country?'
> 'No!' said Strider. 'Trolls do not build. No one lives in this land. Men once dwelt here, ages ago; but none remain now. They became an evil people, as legends tell, for they fell under the shadow of Angmar. But all were destroyed in the war that brought the North Kingdom to its end. But that is now so long ago that the hills have forgotten them, though a shadow still lies on the land.'
> _TLOTR I 12_


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## Maeglin (Feb 7, 2005)

Ooooh, forgot about that one, silly me! Thanks for the quote.


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## Hammersmith (Feb 7, 2005)

Maeglin said:


> What villages were anywhere near where we learn they are in LOTR? There is nothing that close to the Misty Mountains. The only thing I could think of would possibly be a hidden Dunedain village, but somehow I highly doubt that 3 trolls could ever kill 3 Dunedain in a fight, let alone a whole village.


 
No literary references really, but the Greenway was referred to as being well travelled at times. Logic would surely dictate that inns would sprout up along it, with farms and small hamlets consequently clustering around them. I would imagine that Bree is a fairly large village - small hamlets don't have gates - and the trolls were recounting forays against smaller farmsteads and the like.


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## Aranel (Feb 8, 2005)

> Quote:
> Then they came to lands where people spoke strangely, and sang songs Bilbo had never heard before.


 


> Does strangely here mean a strange accent or a strange language? They speak the common tongue in Bree.....this is one to ponder.


 
When the Hobbits reach Bree in FotR the gatekeeper recognises them as Shire folk from the way they speak so presumeably there is a noticeable accent/dialect difference.


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## GuardianRanger (Feb 8, 2005)

Maeglin said:


> A hobbit lighting a wood-fire?! That's much too adventurous, again even for this book when the full nature of hobbits is not quite known, we do know that they hate adventures.



Well, in the Fellowship of the Ring, the hobbits go to the Bonfire Glade, which is in the Old Woods. So, there is some history of hobbits lighting big fires. Granted, this was to repel some of the trees. But still.


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## FrankSinatra (Feb 8, 2005)

I think its very hard to analyse the Hobbit in the same way that we could analyse LOTR.

Its conception was nowhere near as thought out, and i think it does the job it was intended to do in delighting children who dont ask these kinds of questions.

Of course, we are all big children really, so we read it at first with a big smile on our faces, and then ask these questions!


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## Maeglin (Feb 8, 2005)

FrankSinatra said:


> Its conception was nowhere near as thought out, and i think it does the job it was intended to do in delighting children who dont ask these kinds of questions.



I understand all of that, but its still fun to ponder these things in the whole scheme of Tolkien's uncreated, much more vast universe, at the time.


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## Starbrow (Mar 8, 2005)

> What is a "fairy wife?" An elf, perhaps?



In some of Tolkien's other writings, such as Smith of Wootton Major, fairy and elf refer to the same being.



> Suddenly in the wood beyond The Water a flame leapt up - probably somebody lighting a wood-fire



I would imagine the more rural hobbits would have need to light fires to burn unneeded items, such as leaves. They probably lit bonfires for fun in the fall. Certainly some hobbits knew how to light fires with flint and tinder.


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## Hammersmith (Mar 8, 2005)

Starbrow said:


> In some of Tolkien's other writings, such as Smith of Wootton Major, fairy and elf refer to the same being.


A hobbit marrying an elf...that's cute.


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## Eledhwen (Mar 8, 2005)

Maeglin said:


> Any locations for either Mount Gram or the Green Fields?


The only Gram I can find outside The Hobbit is in letter 297, which is a brief commentary on nomenclature. In it, Tolkien says that


> 'Anglo-Saxon' is not only a 'fertile field', but the sole* field in which to look for the origins and meaning of words or names belonging to the speech of the Mark; and also that A-S will not be the source of words and names in any other language† - except for a few (all of which are explained) survivals in Hobbit-dialect derived from the region (The Vale of Anduin to the immediate north of Lórien) where that dialect of the Northmen developed its particular character.
> 
> *with the possible exception ofthe name (of a king) _Gram_. This is, of course, a genuine A-S word, but not in recorded A-S used as a noun = 'warrior or king.' But some influence of the Northern language upon that of the Eorlingas after their removal northward is not unlikely.
> 
> † The only (but major) exception is _Earendil_.



From this clue, I read in Appendix a of LotR that Gram was a king of the Mark, of the first line, father of Helm Hammerhand. The Appendices give no more information about Gram, but his association with the Rohirrim gives a clue as to where the mountain may be.

Again, in The Hobbit, it goes on to say that Bullroarer 'charged the ranks of the goblins of Mount Gram in the Battle of the Green fields.." the entry in the LotR Appendices for TE2747 reads "Bandobras Took defeats an Orc-band in the Northfarthing." So the Green fields were in the Northfarthing.

Now, at the time of Eorl, the Rohirrim lived in a land that 'lay near the sources of the Anduin, between teh furthest ranges of the Misty Mountains and the Northernmost parts of Mirkwood.' Though they had previously lived between The Carrock and the Gladden Fields. For The Hobbits to have known the lair of the Orcs that attacked them, I would place the mountain near the former home of the Rohirrim (thus receiving a Rohanic name Gram), but on or near the Western side. Looking at the map, I would guess either the Ettenmoors or Mount Gundabad. Both are close to Angmar and the former lair of the Dragon, so it does not seem unlikely that the nearest Orcs to The Shire might also hail from there. There are other mountains close enough for Hobbit lore, but no evidence of any Orc activity or other evil beings to back up any speculation.

This is a good thread. It's about time our hobbit lore extended to the book that started it all.


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