# Gandalfs role in post-moria war of the ring



## Anamatar IV (Nov 22, 2002)

> The great storm is coming, but the tide has turned.'



Gandalf to Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli. The coming of Gandalf obviously marks the turning point in the war of the ring towards the west. But how great exactly was Gandalfs role in the war of the ring after his return?



> There suddenly upon a ridge appeared a rider, clad in white, shining in
> the rising sun. Over the low hills the horns were sounding. Behind him,
> hastening down the long slopes, were a thousand men on foot; their swords
> were in their hands. Amid them strode a man tall and strong. His shield was
> ...



So Gandalf made a heoric rescue of Erkenbrand and returned at the climatic moment of Helms Deep. So Gandalf turned the tide of this battle. It is obvious that without Gandalf Rohan would have been demolished in Helms Deep despite a valiant attempt by the king and Aragorn and the battle of the pelennor would have been lost for Gandalf strove with the witchking and prevent him from entering the city. But my question to you is would Gandalf have the same effect upon the war of the ring if he had not fallen in Moria?


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## Gil-Galad (Nov 22, 2002)

I'm not quite sure whether it would have the same effect,if he didn't fall in Moria,but it's obvious he is changed.Maybe he decided to show his real power(in the Silmarillion is said about him that he is one of the Maiar of greatest importance).I think that the battle with the Balrog was on time and things really changed after it.Also Gandalf was very precised in every of his actions.He knew what to do in every moment,because he had matched and understood. all previous things that had happened.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Nov 24, 2002)

> But my question to you is would Gandalf have the same effect upon the war of the ring if he had not fallen in Moria?



No, I do not think that Gandalf would have had the same effect on the War of the Ring had he not fallen into Moria. The way I look at it is this: I believe that Gandalf was _supposed_ to fall into Moria because it was in Iluvatar's plan not only for him but for ME as well. If Gandalf had not fallen into Moria then he would not have been given the rights to be the head and Eldest of the Istari. He died for that purpose to be ordained to that level so that he could accomplish all the works that Iluvatar planned for him to do. If Gandalf had not received this ordination he would not have been able to strip from Saruman the rights to be counted among the Istari, and he would not have been able to do the deeds that he did because his power would not have been great enough. Gandalf took Saruman's place at the head of the Istari and became White instead of Gray. The removal of Saruman and replacement of Gandalf in his position was, I believe, one of the deciding factors in the War of the Ring.


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## aragil (Nov 24, 2002)

I think he would have had a much greater effect- of course, in a different way. He would have gone with the Ringbearer, and so would have had Sam and Frodo across the Emyn Muil, over the Dead Marshes, through the Morannon, and into Orodruin all by mid-February (long before Saruman attacks Rohan or Sauron attacks Gondor). This would have been accomplished via the Eagles, who always seemed to be at his beck-and-call. Too bad he had to go White!


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## Celebthôl (Nov 24, 2002)

I think that if Gandalf didnt become the white than the "erhum goddies" would have lost because no-one would have followed him they didnt even really like him and kept telling him too go away, but when he revealed him as being he white they worked with him, also Aragorn wouldn't have gotten help through the passes of the dead because he wouldnt have gotten the seeing stone of Orthanc, seeing as Gandalf wouldnt have made the impression he did on Saruman and Wormtougne and Wormrtougne wouldn't have thrown the seeing stone at him, also Gandalf wouldn't have gotten the help from that bloke (i forgotten his name the one who arrives late at helms deep).

Thôl


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## Anamatar IV (Nov 24, 2002)

That bloke would be Erkenbrand.

As for mt two cents on this: I think that the West would have failed if Gandalf hadnt fallen. As you said, Celebthol, it was Gandalf being the White and the head of the council thay made Rohan accept his counsel. Gandalf persuaded Theoden to forsake Grima. Also I believe that Gandalf would not have been able to face the witch king in his Gray attire.


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## Confusticated (Nov 24, 2002)

This thread is very much related to this one:

Gandalf's Choice - Folly for Foreseen


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## aragil (Nov 24, 2002)

If Gandalf hadn't fallen there would have been no need to help Rohan or to confront Saruman or the Witch King. Gandalf's plan had been to head East with the Ring Bearer, not West to Edoras and Minas Tirith. The company lost all sense of urgency after GtG's fall in Moria- they waited around in Lorien for a full month! Of course, if GtG hadn't fallen then the company wouldn't have needed so much time to heal in the Golden Wood. Had the Ring gone into Orodruin a month earlier (assuming it still took Gandalf, Sam and Frodo as long as it took the two Hobbits alone, which is doubtfull) then all manner of things would have been different- Gondor could have helped Rohan against Saruman, and they would have had Boromir and Faramir there to lead the charge.


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## Celebthôl (Nov 24, 2002)

but if gandalf hadnt fallen then Pip and Mer wouldnt have been taken coz he would have saved them and they would have gone to mordor another way and succeded maybe (very vague)

Thôl


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## aragil (Nov 24, 2002)

That's what I'm saying. Of course this is pure speculation, but I think that's the point of this thread!


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## Anamatar IV (Nov 24, 2002)

hmm. Which leads me to another point of why the west would fail:

Merry and Pippin would not have been captured and made it into Fangorn. Thusly not rousing the ents. Meaning Isengard remains. The Fellowship would be on the entire other side of the Anduin. At Helms Deep there would be no Flame of The West to lead the charge and no White Rider to come bringer king Erkenbrand. Rohan=DEAD. There are now only three forces left: Sarumans, Saurons, and Gondors. Aragorn never comes to uplift Gondorian hearts (because he would not come while the ring was still intact and if he came after there would be no war to fight). Saruman starts attacking Gondor. Sauron attacks Gondor. Aragorn doesnt take paths of dead and lebannin falls. Gonor would have lost the pelannor fields battle had it not been for the rohirrim and army from lebannin and theyre both gonners. So west loses. Even if they managed to destroy the ring there would be no westron world to celebrate to. Aragorn would be king to no land.


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## aragil (Nov 24, 2002)

Aragorn's plan in the books was to go to Minas Tirith. If the Ring goes into Mt Doom in mid-February, then Sauron never attacks Gondor, Lorien, Mirkwood, or Erebor. Gondor is then free to assist Rohan against Saruman (Saruman did not attack Rohan until ~February 25th) as per the Red Arrow Alliance. This time they have not only Aragorn, but also Boromir, Faramir, and a victorious Gandalf the Grey to lead them. Could Saruman attack both Rohan and Gondor and be victorious? Not in my book.


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## Confusticated (Nov 24, 2002)

Gandalf could not have had the same effect if he had not fallen in Moria. 
I imagine that Gandalf would have done things differently but still have been of assistance.
I think there would have been some other forms of intervention by Iluvatar. The possibilities seem endless though.


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## Anamatar IV (Nov 24, 2002)

but how would gandalf had gotten into Mordor? Surely the wisdom of Gandalf the Grey would not trust Gollum. And evn if he did Gandalf was very surprised that Frodo took cirith ungol. And surely Gandalf the Wise would no the horrors of Udun that lay beyond the morannon---IF Gandalf could get past the morranon.


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## aragil (Nov 24, 2002)

That's where the Eagles become so convenient.


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## pohuist (Nov 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by aragil _
> *Aragorn's plan in the books was to go to Minas Tirith. If the Ring goes into Mt Doom in mid-February, then Sauron never attacks Gondor, Lorien, Mirkwood, or Erebor. Gondor is then free to assist Rohan against Saruman (Saruman did not attack Rohan until ~February 25th) as per the Red Arrow Alliance. This time they have not only Aragorn, but also Boromir, Faramir, and a victorious Gandalf the Grey to lead them. Could Saruman attack both Rohan and Gondor and be victorious? Not in my book. *



I don't believe that in this scenario Saruman would attack at all. He would rather try to destroy all his and everything else and pretend to be good again, in order to return back and not face wrath of Iluvatar. Remember Frodo sayying that there is a chance Saruman would be healed from evil -- I think that chance would have been realized.


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## Confusticated (Nov 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Anamatar IV _
> *but how would gandalf had gotten into Mordor? Surely the wisdom of Gandalf the Grey would not trust Gollum. And evn if he did Gandalf was very surprised that Frodo took cirith ungol. And surely Gandalf the Wise would no the horrors of Udun that lay beyond the morannon---IF Gandalf could get past the morranon. *


Sure Gandalf would distrust Gollum, but he could read him very well. I think Gandalf would have got much information from Gollum just as he had before.

The hobbits may well have been more safe Cirith Ungol had Gandalf been with them.
Sure Gandalf was affraid when he learned of their road, but I'm sure that was in part because they were alone. Maybe Gandalf would have been equally affraid had they went into Moria alone, though he was perfectly willing to let them go through Moria as long as he was there to protect them.


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## Calimehtar (Nov 25, 2002)

If Gandalf hadn't fallen, all 9 of the fellowship would have been in Mordor and when Frodo and Sam had to march with the orcs... do you think Gandalf could pass as an orc? Do you think they could have defeated all those orcs? No, and as for the Eagles taking them, I think Mordor would spot the Eagles before they could land with the Fellowship and even if they did get the fellowship on the ground safe, Mordor would have the Fellowship's position and would know they are headed for Mt. Doom. So, I don't think they would have been able to destroy the ring.


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## Confusticated (Nov 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by BilbosBane _
> *If Gandalf hadn't fallen, all 9 of the fellowship would have been in Mordor and... *


I disagree. I think Gandalf would have known better than to take everyone into Mordor. Maybe Aragorn, Boromir, Legolas, and Gimli would have been on their way to Minas Tirith, were they could make themselves usefull. The question here is would Boromir have still been around? I don't know. Then there is also always the chance that other members of the fellowship would have been killed of by ocrs before going seperate ways.

Also, had any little thing gone differently, Frodo and Sam may not have had the need to disguise as ocrs.

Who can know what would happen.


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## Anamatar IV (Nov 25, 2002)

Frodo and Sam actually had a big advantage when they were trapped almost caught by orcs in cirith ungol over a full 9 fellowship. 1 of the 2 is "dead" and the other is wearing the ring. They cant be caught really. If the entire 9 (or any number greater than 2) were in cirith ungol and about to be caught by orcs how do you hide them all? Sure you could have a lengthy battle but then Sauron is tipped to your whereabouts. So it was better for the quest to have frodo and sam go off alone. So maybe if gandalf had not fallen and he led the entire company up cirith ungol and they defeated shelob and then they get stuck between a rock and a hard place...ring goes to sauron...no king to gondor...Saruman overruns rohan...Gondor stands alone...eventually gondor falls. So my opinion is that Gandalfs fall was for the benefit of the mission and the west.


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## Arvedui (Nov 26, 2002)

Hmmm.. To think that I have disagreed with PJ for altering sequences from the book, when making the movie.

Actually, I think Nenya Evenstar, hit spot on in her post early in the thread. Gandalf was meant to fall in Moria. Iluvatar HAD to change him, because of the treachery of Saruman. The fall with the balrog was just a convenient excuse to let that happen. If that hadn't occured, something else would have happened, with the same result.

Gandalf the White.


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## aragil (Nov 26, 2002)

Uh-oh Arvedui- you're actually agreeing with PJ's version, which had Gandalf purposefully let go of the bridge (listen to the director's commentary of the EE), because he 'knew' he needed to fall.

Still, was it absolutely necessary for Gandalf to fall? Not as long as the Eagles are around- they could drop off the ring bearer (and any grey wizard accompanying him) right on the slopes of Orodruin (as they later picked up Frodo on the slopes of the Mountain _while it was erupting_ I see no reason to object to this). Eagles are faster than anything Sauron possesses, so there is no chance for a Mordor intervention at this point. Of course, had this been the course then we would have missed out on a whole bunch of moral lessons, so the story would have been much (much much) poorer. However, strictly speaking Gandalf did not have to fall in Moria for the quest to be successful (IMO).


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## Arvedui (Nov 26, 2002)

> Uh-oh Arvedui- you're actually agreeing with PJ's version, which had Gandalf purposefully let go of the bridge (listen to the director's commentary of the EE), because he 'knew' he needed to fall.



No, I did not agree with PJ. I haven't heard him say that. Neither do I say that Gandalf 'knew' that he needed to fall. I think he didn't. My point is that he was sent to ME together with four others, who all failed. Saruman,the worst. As Nenya E. pointed out, those who sent him knew that they had to do somethin to counter Saruman's treachery. The fight with the Balrog was convenient for this purpose. If that hadn't happened, something else would have happened, with the same outcome: Gandalf would have died, and from that, be transformed.

You have a point concerning the eagles, but if that had happened, the book would've been 20 pages long, and not the second most read book in the 20th century.


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## Lantarion (Nov 26, 2002)

Yes, and in the book the thong of the fiery whip of the Balrog curls around Gandalf's ankle, and pulls him down..
But on the topic: I'd also have to say that Gandalf would not have been able to accomplish the feats he did as the Gray. I see in the book that he is beginning to get very tired, not like I-want-to-go-to-sleep tired, but weary; he is, after all, the only Istar still true to his mission, and he has been working against Sauron for all of his life on Middle-Earth, nonstop. That could wear anybody down; and after all, he's only a moderately powerful Maia, not a Vala. And I really think that he would have collapsed not long after he had supposedly vanquished the Balrog, and would have become ill or just died: used his energy source up, in a sense. 
But as the White, his energy sourse was renewed, and its potency was even greater than it was when he first set foot on the shores of M-E. And it's completely due to these supermaian (hehe) skills that he acquires from Ilúvatar that he has the ourage and the stamina to continue till the end of the Quest.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Nov 26, 2002)

Thank you, Arvedui, for the staunch support. 

I have been thinking about the whole Eagle thing. For some reason I simply cannot picture the Eagles carrying hobbits all the way into Mordor to destroy the Ring. The Eagles did not ever seem very active in contesting Sauron, and I see no reason why they would have begun to do such a thing then. They were Maia of Manwe and were not on ME for the purpose of aiding the peoples of ME against Sauron's threat. That was the purpose of the Istari. It seems to me that Maia keep to their jobs and do not meddle in the jobs of the other Maia. The Eagles' friendship with Gandalf can easily be accounted for as Gandalf was akin to them, and they could easily have been told about him through Manwe. However, I see no evidence to support the idea that the Eagles would have outstepped their bounds and their job by carrying Hobbits into Moria to destroy a danger when there was already someone else taking care of that job. Why did the Eagles submit to carry Frodo and Sam out of the fires of Mordor? Well, 1: Gandalf asked them to, and it is apparent that the Eagles respected Gandalf because of the friendship between them, but this does not mean that the Eagles would outstep their bounds and help _destroy_ the Ring. 2: Gandalf's job had been accomplished. 3: It would have made for a very bad story if Frodo and Sam had been left in Mordor. 

Just some thoughts.


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## Eliot (Nov 26, 2002)

No, I don't think that Gandalf would have been the same if he hadn't fallen. I don't think they would have won the war of the ring either.


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## aragil (Nov 26, 2002)

Regarding the four Istari: I still say that Radagast remained true to his job, which was laid upon him more by Yavanna than by Iluvatar. In any case, without Radagast GtG never makes it out of Orthanc alive, and then I think the quest certainly fails. Why JRRT seems so hard on the poor Istar is anyone's guess, but at least Christopher Tolkien sticks up for him.

Regarding the Eagles: Tolkien decided they weren't Maia, as Maia can't have kids and Gwaihir was the son of Thorondor (don't ask me why Melian got special treatment). In any case, they *were* active in Middle-earth- they repeatedly aided the Noldor in the First Age who *were under the ban*, and they helped Gandalf out on no less than six separate occasions in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. Are you honestly trying to tell me that they would have been prohibited from saving the Quest if it was on the point of failure? Where is the evidence for that? Of course I agree, if the Eagles had done the job it would have been a poor book- anybody who is interested should see these three threads for more discussion on the topic:
Could Eagles enter the aerial borders of Mordor? 
The Eagles 
and Why didn't Frodo Fly to Mt. Doom?


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## Anamatar IV (Nov 26, 2002)

There may have been an order form manwe not to aid against sauron but theres no evidence. But also the eagles may have been able to get frodo and sam out of there because that was not directly changing the course of the war against sauron. The dark lord is dead, there can be no more interferring.


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## aragil (Nov 26, 2002)

But the Eagles interfered several times before the Dark Lord was dead. Remember, Gandalf the White was pretty impressive, but he couldn't have done much for the cause if he had been left alone on the Peak of Caradhras. The fact that the Eagles could rescue him there (at the bidding of Galadriel, not Manwe) shows that they *could* directly interfere in the war against Sauron, just as they could directly interfere in the war against Morgoth back when the Valar were sitting on their tushies.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Nov 26, 2002)

> In any case, they were active in Middle-earth- they repeatedly aided the Noldor in the First Age who were under the ban



Arg! I did not even think about that! Ah well! As for the rest... you have a point! So the Eagles are stickers in my side.


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## morello13 (Nov 26, 2002)

whose Illuvatar? Some Valar? Ive only read LOTR
I dont rmemeber Gnadalf conrfornting the witch king, when did this happen?
One more, did he actually die or was he just left on that mountain summit?


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## Anamatar IV (Nov 26, 2002)

Iluvutar, Eru-The one. The "god" sort of. He created the ainur and with his themes they created arda. Gandalf confronted the witch-king at the battlle of the pelannor fields. It doesnt say much in detail but in Gandalfs dialogue he says it. He died, got sent back to Valinor, and got sent back to finish his task.


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## morello13 (Nov 26, 2002)

thank you


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## Lantarion (Nov 27, 2002)

Yes, Anamatar, you are basically correct; although I don't think Gandalf (Olórin, his spirit) actually went anywhere as such. Why would Eru whisk him off to Valinor, just to send him back to the top of Zirak-zigil? 
But sorry, that was unrelated. Carry on! 

PS: Morello, I suggest you get your hands on a Silmarillion ASAP. It's the best book Tolkien ever wrote, IMO.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Nov 27, 2002)

Ahhh... but I can't carry on Lantarion! You have sparked a little bit of interest in me now. I have read on this forum a certain quote from The Letters (quoted indeed by our good Tar-Elenion) which seems to be saying that Gandalf does not go to Valinor but instead to Eru himself and that it is Eru who sends him back. At any rate, someone sends him back:


> "Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell.
> 
> Naked I was sent back - for a brief time, until my task was done." TTT


In the Sil. it is made clear that time is a thing of Ea itself. Time began when the Ainur first entered into the halls of Ea:


> For the Great Music had been but the growth and flowering of thought in the Timeless Halls, and the Vision only a foreshowing; but now they entered in at the beginning of Time, and the Valar perceived that the World had been but foreshadowed and foresung, and they must achieve it.


So, if Gandalf strayed out of thought and time, where did he go?


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## morello13 (Nov 27, 2002)

Lantarion, I just picked up the sil form my school's library, I;m the first on to taake it out, ever, I gues noody here really eenjoys tolkine that much. I've only firnished the preface and all but i shoul dbe starting the anuinandale today.


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## Arvedui (Nov 28, 2002)

> So, if Gandalf strayed out of thought and time, where did he go?



That question has been debated elsewhere on this forum:

Gandalf'sdeath in Moria - An afterthought? 

And I seem to remember that it has been mentioned in another thread as well, can't remember which...




> Thank you, Arvedui, for the staunch support.



You are most welcome


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## Nenya Evenstar (Nov 28, 2002)

Ahhh... there is a wealth of information there! Thank you once more!  I would strongly encourage each and every one of the readers in this thread to visit that link. It will enrich your understanding.


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## Lantarion (Nov 28, 2002)

Hmm, interesting indeed!
Good Morello; I can't believe nobody's ever picked up the Sil from your library! Unbelievable. 


> _Originally posted by morello13_
> anuinandale


Whoah, please; I know you are new to the book, but try to get at least the first title in the book correct!  Haha, just kidding. But The correct spelling is _Ainulindalë_: _ainu_, meaning 'holy' and referring to the Ainur whom Ilúvatar created before anything else was made; _lindalë_, basically 'music', from the root _lin_, 'to sing'.


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## morello13 (Nov 29, 2002)

Lantarion, 
I hope I live in a small town, but even so I hope somebody has taken out the Sil from the public library. I got it form my school's library and my shcool is pretty small, less than a 1000 kids.
How do you get those different symbols above the letters?
I've heard the Sil is pretty hard so far I've read Ainulindale, Valaquenta, and Of the Beggining Of Days, it definitely is alot deeper than the Hobit and LotR. But I am really enjoying it, escpecially the Ainulindale(I'm a musician) and being the loser that I am I took notes on the Valaquenta to piece together the realtions and power rankings of the Valar. I hope its doesn't get much more difficult and that it remains as interesting.
thanks for the engouraging words
J>


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## Nenya Evenstar (Nov 29, 2002)

> But I am really enjoying it, escpecially the Ainulindale(I'm a musician) and being the loser that I am I took notes on the Valaquenta to piece together the realtions and power rankings of the Valar.



Arg! Don't call yourself a loser for such a thing! I can assure you that people from this forum take many, many notes while reading the books. In fact, a lot of us go even farther than that. So don't be so hard on yourself - note taking on Tolkien's books is a very good thing!


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## Gil-Galad (Nov 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by morello13 _
> *Lantarion,
> I hope I live in a small town, but even so I hope somebody has taken out the Sil from the public library. I got it form my school's library and my shcool is pretty small, less than a 1000 kids.
> How do you get those different symbols above the letters?
> ...


well if you like Ainulindale you should see the discussion about it. As a whole the book is not so difficult,but it's complicated in term of names,relationship between differen characters etc...


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## G.T.Grey (Dec 3, 2002)

Interesting thread. Maybe Gandalf sacrificed himself at Khazad Dum, but I don't think that the final outcome was certain, by any means. The Sil's creation mythology does imply predestination, but the exact cause and effect relationship is never thoroughly explored. Was what happened always going to happen, or were there other conceivable outcomes? I don't personally like the idea that, if Gandalf had not fallen at Khazad Dum, then everything would hav been OK as Eru would have found some other way to kill him, thus ensuring victory for the free peoples.I dont think it worked like that, or that Tolkien saw it that way. Such a viewpoint demeans the valor of Gandalf, Frodo, Aragorn and all the rest. If they were igoing to win anyway, their deeds were effectively meaningless.

I think that if Gandalf had survived, there would still have been a chance of success. It would have been a very slim chance, yes, but that's all it ever was going to be. Gandalf's exact plan was never revealed, but you can be fairly certain that he did have one.

As it happened, Gandalf's death - his sacrifice - worked, though there is no way he could have known this at the time. His sacrifice, if it were indeed such a thing, was made in order to enable the rest of the Fellowship to escape, rather than to have a spiritual service and return with a souped up engine.


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## Leto (Dec 3, 2002)

Consider this...what would have happened if Gandalf had not fallen with the Balrog, and it survived? It was now awakened, and alerted to the presence and whereabouts of the company containing Gandalf, and the ring. (which it might or might not have been able to sense). It possibly could have been under Sauron's control, as well, or at least would have allied with Sauron. This is why, when Celeborn heard that they ran into a Balrog, he said "I would not have let you cross my border". If it survived, it might have left Moria, and chased them into Lorien, where even the power of the Elves couldn't have stopped it completely. Even if Galadriel and her ring managed to keep it out of Lorien, it might have done great harm to the free peoples in other areas, north or south. Imagine the balrog, with an army of orcs out of Moria, attacking Rivendell. I think Gandalf knew it had to be destroyed, if at all possible, or it would cause much greater problems later on. Just like Smaug, and the quest of Erebor. Death and fire in Eriador


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## aragil (Dec 4, 2002)

But Leto, consider this:
Second Age 1 - Third Age 1980 (~5400 years): Balrog is imprisoned in the mountain and does not attempt to leave.

Third Age 1980 - Third Age 2799: The Balrog is no longer imprisoned in Moria and still doesn't leave in spite of the fact that the Necromancer is stirring just next door in Dol Guldur.

Third Age 2799: War of the Dwarves and Orcs ends outside the gates of Moria, the Balrog comes in visual contact with the stunty folks who have just decimated the Orcs of Moria, yet still he doesn't leave.

Third Age 2800 - Third Age 3018: More peacable living for the Balrog in his 'borrowed' Dwarven mansion. Even after an unwelcome and short lived intrusion by the Dwarves, the Balrog does not leave.

Why do you assume that the Balrog would suddenly feel the need to catch some fresh air at that point? There is no evidence in the text that I could see to suggest that the Balrog could sense the ring, or that it would ally itself to Sauron. To me the Balrog appeared to be very content in his underground lair- probably still afeard of the Valar. In any case, if he had gone to Rivendell he at least could have given Glorfindel something to do during the War of the Ring. I don't think any Orcish Army would have much luck in Rivendell- remember Sauron himself couldn't take it back in the Second Age!


GTG- If you were referring to me, I never meant to imply that the quest was doomed to success (other than the fact that JRRT was prone to writing ~happy endings). I was only trying to point out that the actual act of Gandalf going over the edge was not critical for the mission's success. However, I agree with you that the selfless decisions like facing the Balrog *were* critical to the mission's success. Here's what Tolkien says about the ultimate fulfillment of the quest:


> It is possible for the good, even the saintly, to be subjected to a power of evil which is too great for them to overcome – in themselves. In this case the cause (not the 'hero') was triumphant, because by the exercise of pity, mercy, and forgiveness of injury, a situation was produced in which all was redressed and disaster averted. Gandalf certainly foresaw this. See Vol. I p. 68-9.(1) Of course, he did not mean to say that one must be merciful, for it may prove useful later – it would not then be mercy or pity, which are only truly present when contrary to prudence. Not ours to plan ! But we are assured that we must be ourselves extravagantly generous, if we are to hope for the extravagant generosity which the slightest easing of, or escape from, the consequences of our own follies and errors represents. And that mercy does sometimes occur in this life.
> Frodo deserved all honour because he spent every drop of his power of will and body, and that was just sufficient to bring him to the destined point, and no further. Few others, possibly no others of his time, would have got so far.
> 
> 1. "Pity? It was Pity that stayed [Bilbo's] hand. Pity, and Mercy: not to strike without need. And he has been well rewarded, Frodo. Be sure that he took so little hurt from the evil, and escaped in the end, because he began his ownership of the Ring so. With Pity."'


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