# Did cirdan fight in war of wrath?



## Turin_Turambar (Sep 16, 2021)

Did cirdan fight in the war of wrath? Does anyone have information on this subject?


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## Elthir (Sep 17, 2021)




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## Turin_Turambar (Sep 17, 2021)

Elthir said:


>


I understand it is unknown.


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 17, 2021)

I can’t imagine many fought in the War of Wrath who weren’t from Aman or were freed by their hosts. I think Círdan likely stayed on the isle of Belar.


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## Elthir (Sep 17, 2021)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> I understand it is unknown.



Sorry . . . and I almost didn't post it . . . but that beard tipped the scales!

It was more about his general Cirdan-ish look (well, for those who picture him this way, I guess) . . . 
and not about _actual_ exasperation in any case.

plus it's kind of a nice scene in my opinion, art-wise

I don't actually care how many War of Wrath threads there are!

They are all Tolkien based chat. They are all good.


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## Turin_Turambar (Sep 17, 2021)

Elthir said:


> Sorry . . . and I almost didn't post it . . . but that beard tipped the scales!
> 
> It was more about his general Cirdan-ish look (well, for those who picture him this way, I guess) . . .
> and not about _actual_ exasperation in any case.
> ...


you probably know. Not only in the silmarillion. Is there an article about cirdan fighting in the war of wrath, including the 10-volume middle-earth history series?


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## m4r35n357 (Sep 17, 2021)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> you probably know. Not only in the silmarillion. Is there an article about cirdan fighting in the war of wrath, including the 10-volume middle-earth history series?


The _only_ accounts of the War of Wrath (Later Annals of Beleriand, Quenta Silmarillion) were written _before_ LotR (c.1937, HoME 5). The character of Cirdan the shipwright is not "invented" until the _post-LotR_ Annals of Aman and Grey Annals (c.1951, HoME 10/11).

So, no, there is no article


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## m4r35n357 (Sep 17, 2021)

Roll call of _all_ named characters in the War of Wrath (source: Later Annals of Beleriand, Quenta Silmarillion):

Eonwe/Fionwe: Herald/son of Manwe
Ingwiel: son of Ingwe
Morgoth: the dark enemy
Ancalagon the Black: dragon
Thorondor: eagle
Earendil: the Mariner

That is all!


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 17, 2021)

Cirdan must've answered the summons of Fionwë because.... That what Cirdan does, he fights.


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## Turin_Turambar (Sep 17, 2021)

m4r35n357 said:


> The _only_ accounts of the War of Wrath (Later Annals of Beleriand, Quenta Silmarillion) were written _before_ LotR (c.1937, HoME 5). The character of Cirdan the shipwright is not "invented" until the _post-LotR_ Annals of Aman and Grey Annals (c.1951, HoME 10/11).
> 
> So, no, there is no article


After the war, the valar cirdan offers a choice or a reward. I read something similar.


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 17, 2021)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> After the war, the valar cirdan offers a choice or a reward. I read something similar


If I remember correctly they did this in Years of the Trees during the Great March. They gifted Cirdan the gift of being the most far-sighted Elf and commanded him to remain in Middle-earth.

However, Elrond and Galadriel and GilGalad have better track record of doing "far-sighted" deeds. I've seen people arguing that Cirdan already knew that they will do those far-sighted deeds in the accurate given time, hence he didn't do anything himself. Still, the only Elf who is compared to Manwë the greatest spirit of wisdom and knowledge of the Music is Galadriel, Third Age Galadriel specifically.


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## Olorgando (Sep 17, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> Cirdan must've answered the summons of Fionwë because.... That what Cirdan does, he fights.


I definitely have a different image of Cirdan in my mind. He seems to have been a warden, master, whatever, of *havens* during pretty much his entire existence in Middle-earth. In the First Age, someone equivalent to Elrond and his "Last Homely House", ruler of a refuge. For that matter, Cirdan even in the Third Age was still at the Grey Havens, at the westernmost end of that road that ran though the Shire, while Elrond was at its easternmost end before it crossed the Misty Mountains. It is a common misconception that in armies almost everyone fights. In modern armies the logistics backup is often several times the actual fighting force. But at all times, any force that fought perhaps more than a day's march away from home needed supporting non-combatants.


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 17, 2021)

Cirdan fought in the Last Allisnce, far away from his home.

Elrond had retired from being a warrior in Third Age.


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## Olorgando (Sep 17, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> Cirdan fought in the Last Allisnce, far away from his home.
> Elrond had retired from being a warrior in Third Age.


First a nitpick: the OP was about the War of Wrath (as so many are ...)
Second, Cirdan during the First Age might have been far older than Elrond in the time of the War of the Ring, as far as retirement goes (I am retired).
And Cirdan was named "the Shipwright", apparently with skills approaching those of the Teleri of Aman. A specialist you don't throw away in any war, even if he were a skilled warrior, about which I don't recall JRRT ever writing anything.

For your claim that Cirdan fought in the Last Alliance, I'd like to see a quote of something JRRT himself wrote, and please book and section / chapter.


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 17, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> First a nitpick: the OP was about the War of Wrath (as so many are ...)


lol That's because Tolkien wrote so little about it compared to other topics.


Olorgando said:


> For your claim that Cirdan fought in the Last Alliance, I'd like to see a quote of something JRRT himself wrote, and please book and section / chapter.


Wasn't he there with Elrond when they told Isildur to throw the ring in the fire?


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 17, 2021)

You are arguing that Cirdan didn't leave the havens to go to war of wrath. But he had already done it several times in First Age. And in Second Age he even went to thousands of miles away from the havens to fight in the Last Alliance.

Maglor is a poet. Should I argue he didn't fight in any wars? And many other characters are specialized in other tasks, such as smith craft. Yet they all take part in wars. Especially the ones like Cirdan who don't hold a big grudge against the Noldor and the Dwarves.

Cirdan and Elrond were the only ones who stood by GilGalad and advised Isildur to cast it into the fire. Destroy it. Isildur!


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## Olorgando (Sep 17, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> You are arguing that Cirdan didn't leave the havens to go to war of wrath. But he had already done it several times in First Age. And in Second Age he even went to thousands of miles away from the havens to fight in the Last Alliance.
> 
> Maglor is a poet. Should I argue he didn't fight in any wars? And many other characters are specialized in other tasks, such as smith craft. Yet they all take part in wars. Especially the ones like Cirdan who don't hold a big grudge against the Noldor and the Dwarves.
> 
> Cirdan and Elrond were the only ones who stood by GilGalad and advised Isildur to cast it into the fire. Destroy it. Isildur!


I *argue* about plausibilities when JRRT does not explicitly make a statement in his own writing. Or sometimes I don't enter the argument, for a variety of reasons.

But where I am merciless is when I ask you to provide a quote from anything JRRT wrote. Every single statement in your above post is an argument. You have not provided a single quote. Do so, and I will willingly concede the point. Do not, then I must assume that you are trying to present *arguments* (which have their place, see above) as "facts" (anything JRRT actually wrote - and yes, I know that he contradicted himself no end over the decades - ask @Elthir !)

So, quotes please.


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 17, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> I *argue* about plausibilities when JRRT does not explicitly make a statement in his own writing. Or sometimes I don't enter the argument, for a variety of reasons.
> 
> But where I am merciless is when I ask you to provide a quote from anything JRRT wrote. Every single statement in your above post is an argument. You have not provided a single quote. Do so, and I will willingly concede the point. Do not, then I must assume that you are trying to present *arguments* (which have their place, see above) as "facts" (anything JRRT actually wrote - and yes, I know that he contradicted himself no end over the decades - ask @Elthir !)
> 
> So, quotes please.



I don't have my books on me but the Tolkien Gateway site backs up the claim that Cirdan was at Orodruin, citing "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" and "The Council of Elrond"


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## Olorgando (Sep 17, 2021)

ZehnWaters said:


> I don't have my books on me but the Tolkien Gateway site backs up the claim that Cirdan was at Orodruin, citing "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" and "The Council of Elrond"


Yes, Cirdan being at Orodruin with Elrond and Isildur is in "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age", though all three being at (in) Orodruin is not explicitly mentioned in "Council of Elrond". A quote from JRRT, and one even author-published - as I have my books on me (I wouldn't care Balrog droppings about any non-quoting claims by anything in the Internet).


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 17, 2021)

'I beheld the last combat on the slopes of Orodruin, where Gil-galad died, and Elendil fell, and Narsil broke beneath him; but Sauron himself was overthrown, and Isildur cut the Ring from his hand with the hilt-shard of his father’s sword, and took it for his own.’

At this the stranger, Boromir, broke in. 'So that is what became of the Ring!' he cried. `If ever such a tale was told in the South, it has long been forgotten. I have heard of the Great Ring of him that we do not name; but we believed that it perished from the world in the ruin of his first realm. Isildur took it! That is tidings indeed.’

'Alas! yes,' said Elrond. `Isildur took it, as should not have been. It should have been cast then into Orodruin’s fire nigh at hand where it was made. But few marked what Isildur did. He alone stood by his father in that last mortal contest; and by Gil-galad only Círdan stood, and I. But Isildur would not listen to our counsel.


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## Olorgando (Sep 17, 2021)

Excellent. Something of the sort for Cirdan's participation in the War of Wrath, or even just answering the summons of Fionwë, would clinch the OP question.


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 17, 2021)

Cirdan did answer to summons of GilGalad to go thousands of miles away from home. Why wouldn't he answer to summons of the chief demigod.
He always answered to summons. He answered to Galadriel's summons and left his home multiple times and came to Rivendell and even to attack Dol Guldur. And in First Age he always suddenly appeared with his ships to attack the enemies and save people. And sometimes he didn't use any ships in wars, he came on horse.

Imagine such a character fighting in all sort of battles, but not in the greatest battle.

We all know there's no 100% canon answer to that. We are just assuming based on his characterization. We are assuming he didn't break character.


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## Olorgando (Sep 17, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> We all know there's no 100% canon answer to that. We are just assuming based on his characterization.


You are assuming. And you are imagining a lot. Fanfic territory, not "The Works of J.R.R. Tolkien".


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 17, 2021)

...based on track record and characterization of Cirdan. I don't like to assume Cirdan broke character.


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## Olorgando (Sep 17, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> ...based on track record and characterization of Cirdan. I don't like to assume Cirdan broke character.


Your assumption, interpretation, of track record. With a lot of your posts, I have to wonder if we've been reading the same books. But then I know this can happen. What JRRT called the reader's applicability; there are as many applicabilities as there are readers. To each his / her own; some of yours are definitely not mine.


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 17, 2021)

Anyone can have a different interpretation as long as it doesn't contradict the lore and the person is giving valid and digestible supports to back up their interpretation.

Sometimes Tolkien himself wrote ridiculous stuff that made absolutely no sense. Like that writing about Noldor surpassing the skill of their own teachers (Aulë and Yavanna). I'd argue with Tolkien himself that this is absurd and utterly illogical. But hey, it's his stories, let him sa-si if he can't speak no better. He could ruin his stories as much as he wanted, not my problem.


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## Turin_Turambar (Sep 17, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> Excellent. Something of the sort for Cirdan's participation in the War of Wrath, or even just answering the summons of Fionwë, would clinch the OP question.


Hello olorgando, It is also written on the tolkien gateway that cirdan fought in the war of the last alliance.








War of the Last Alliance


The War of the Last Alliance, also simply known as the War of the Alliance, was the war at the close of the Second Age in which the Last Alliance of Elves and Men...




tolkiengateway.net




Also, Cirdan is the first elf to awaken in Middle-earth. And his name is mentioned in all wars in Middle-earth history except the War of the Ring and Dagor Bragollach. Why shouldn't such a character heed Eönwe's call for war?


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 17, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> Your assumption, interpretation, of track record. With a lot of your posts, I have to wonder if we've been reading the same books. But then I know this can happen. What JRRT called the reader's applicability; there are as many applicabilities as there are readers. To each his / her own; some of yours are definitely not mine.


Long story, short: It's possible and even likely given his track record but there's nothing official saying he did. Everyone is on their own on this one.


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## Turin_Turambar (Oct 4, 2021)

m4r35n357 said:


> Roll call of _all_ named characters in the War of Wrath (source: Later Annals of Beleriand, Quenta Silmarillion):
> 
> Eonwe/Fionwe: Herald/son of Manwe
> Ingwiel: son of Ingwe
> ...


I disagree with you on this. Just because an elf isn't among the commanders doesn't mean he wasn't in that battle. So that's not all.😉


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## m4r35n357 (Oct 5, 2021)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> I disagree with you on this. Just because an elf isn't among the commanders doesn't mean he wasn't in that battle. So that's not all.😉


Disagree all you like 

I have provided _verifiable_ information on those who were _definitely_ there. If you think I have missed out Cirdan or anyone else , give us some_ data_; opinions do not count!


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## Alcuin (Oct 5, 2021)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> It is also written on the tolkien gateway that cirdan fought in the war of the last alliance.


The War of the Last Alliance is not the War of Wrath. In _LotR_, Elrond tells Frodo at the “Council of Elrond” that he and Círdan were with Gil-galad at the penultimate battle on the slopes of Orodruin between Sauron, Gil-galad, and Elendil, while Isildur was with Elendil.

I checked Tolkien Gateway’s entry for Círdan and found this concerning Círdan and the War of Wrath.
​After the War of Wrath, Círdan, heeding the bidding of the Valar long ago, once more obediently abstained from finding his heart’s desire and going West, but with a small following remained in Middle-earth.​​I note that it does _not_ mention Círdan having fought in the War of Wrath.



Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> Also, Cirdan is the first elf to awaken in Middle-earth.


*Citation, please.* Círdan either “awoke” (which would make him one of the first Nelyar (“thirds”, the third tribe or clan, the forerunners of those who became the Teleri and Sindar, the most numerous of the three tribes (or clans) of Elves)) or was born (from Elven parents) at Cuiviénen. Nowhere does Tolkien write or imply that, “Cirdan is the first elf to awaken in Middle-earth.” That would make him the leader of the Nelyar, and though he is regarded by the Sindar as one of their lords, one of the chief of the Sindarin lords remaining in Middle-earth (Celeborn and Thranduil would be others), and there is reasonably good evidence that he is the oldest Elf (of the Elven nobility at any rate) remaining in Middle-earth, there is no evidence of which I am aware that he was the first Elf to awaken.



Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> [Círdan’s] name is mentioned in all wars in Middle-earth history except the War of the Ring and Dagor Bragollach. Why shouldn't such a character heed Eönwe's call for war?





TheManInTheMoon said:


> Cirdan did answer to summons of GilGalad to go thousands of miles away from home. Why wouldn't he answer to summons of the chief demigod.
> He always answered to summons. ...


Decent arguments, but contrary to the written material we have. _Silmarillion_ says (“Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath”),
​Of the march of the host of the Valar to the north of Middle-earth little is said in any tale; for among them went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they only learned long afterwards from their kinsfolk in Aman. … [S]uch few as were left of the three houses of the Elf-friends, Fathers of Men, fought upon the part of the Valar…​​“None of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in” Middle-earth went with the Host of the Valar to the War of Wrath. *None of them.* I do believe that includes Círdan. And in regards to a recent thread on this same matter regarding Maedhros and Maglor, that includes them, too, though they afterwards appeared in the Camp of the Host of the Valar, murdered the guards of the two Silmarilli, and subsequently took them from the camp.

The surviving _Edain_, however, _did_ go to the war.



Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> I disagree with you on this. Just because an elf isn't among the commanders doesn't mean he wasn't in that battle. So that's not all.


I agree with you that _absence of evidence is not evidence of absence,_ but I disagree with your conclusion that it justifies asserting that Círdan participated in the War of Wrath. He did not. Once again, _Silmarillion_ plainly tells us, *“None of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in” Middle-earth went with the Host of the Valar to the War of Wrath.* None of them. That includes Círdan. To the contrary: We have every indication he sat that one out.


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## Olorgando (Oct 5, 2021)

Alcuin said:


> I agree with you that _absence of evidence is not evidence of absence,_


Alcuin, Alcuin, that is *so* old school. Haven't you heard / read of that tenet of, I can only guess, _*"*_*new" logic?*:

_absence of evidence is *evidence* of presence_

In my own personal memory it goes back to the Apollo 11 moon landing. But then I'm only 65 ... 🤨


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## Alcuin (Oct 5, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> _absence of evidence is *evidence* of presence_



It’s _aliens!_


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## Olorgando (Oct 5, 2021)

Alcuin said:


> It’s _aliens!_
> 
> View attachment 10419


Just looks like a bad hair day to me (*very* bad, to be truthful ...) 😁


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 5, 2021)




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## Hisoka Morrow (Oct 5, 2021)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> View attachment 10420
> 
> View attachment 10421


How about aliens with human brains?👿


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