# Of Turin's Pride



## Beren (May 23, 2005)

I've been thinking a lot about why Turin was proud.
I see only two possiblities:

A-The Curse of Morgoth worked within him to make him proud
B-He was proud already and his pride acted as a conduit for the curse to work through.

I tend to lean towards opinion A. What do you guys think?


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## Thorondor_ (May 23, 2005)

I would lean towards B), alot (if not most) of the greatest heroes in Silmarilion tend to get very proud, and then mess things up due to this.


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## Beren (May 23, 2005)

Thorondor_ said:


> I would lean towards B), alot (if not most) of the greatest heroes in Silmarilion tend to get very proud, and then mess things up due to this.


 Yeah, but you see there's something about Turin's pride that just seems unnatural to me, especially when he refuses to return to Doriath after Thingol grants him forgiveness. I've always thought of this as Morgoth's curse in motion. Besides, other "proud" characters never got into so much trouble as Turin. The worst case I can recall now is Turgon's refusal to listen to Ulmo which cost him Gondolin and his life; but that's nothing compared to Turin's misery, wouldn't you say?


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## Thorondor_ (May 23, 2005)

I would say the greatest drama is the one of Melkor. He was supposed to be the greatest Ainu of all... and became worst than any of them.

Also, what about Feanor? He could live his life to be the greatest of the elves, but his pride brought so many tears... I guess this is a Tolkienian lesson, if I may say so. It really strikes how much his characters behave like humans, even if they are gods or else. Hm, even Eru has anthropomorphic features, it makes you wonder why Tolkien wanted that..


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## Alatar (May 23, 2005)

B) 
I'd be proud, my farther is the mightest man ever,I am the heir of the mightest house, and the king with the fairest dwellings east of the sea is my foster parent.
And you kill the evil god at the last battle, thus saving the world.


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## Beren (May 23, 2005)

Thorondor_ said:


> I would say the greatest drama is the one of Melkor. He was supposed to be the greatest Ainu of all... and became worst than any of them.



Agreed! But then again, we're discussing whether Turin's pride came from the curse of Melkor. So Melkor's story being the "greatest drama" wouldn't contradict opinion A; naturally if Melkor caused Turin's pride, he himself should have an immense pride of his own.



Thorondor_ said:


> Also, what about Feanor?


Again, Fëanor was directly influenced by Melkor (Melkor actually spoke to him in Valinor) so it's only logical that his pride caused as much pain as (if not more than) Turin's.



Nóm said:


> Turin's mother, his only parent, was also proud, and his background probably had a lot to with it... the fact that their land had been taken from them. His mother was very strong, and they were used to a life of being helped by no one. It was about the only thing left to have pride in.





Alatar said:


> I'd be proud, my farther is the mightest man ever,I am the heir of the mightest house, and the king with the fairest dwellings east of the sea is my foster parent.
> And you kill the evil god at the last battle, thus saving the world.


Now this I can't contend with! But suppose for a second that Turin still had the same parentage but wasn't cursed. Do you think his pride would still have been the arrogance and grimness we all know and love?


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## Thorondor_ (May 23, 2005)

> But suppose for a second that Turin still had the same parentage but wasn't cursed. Do you think his pride would still have been the arrogance and grimness we all know and love?


Yes - but I don't love it a bit! Without the curse, at least Turin's love life would have been better; what he actually had was most likely the "worst case scenario" in love affairs in Tolkien's world.


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