# Possible military conflicts not mentioned by JRRT



## Hisoka Morrow (Jul 27, 2020)

This is based on the 2nd AGE mainly. We all know that the Numenor Empire was the only superpower via the whole 2nd Age(Like Mr. Democracy XDD). So military conflicts must be frequent. However, the military conflicts secured to happen are only these
1. Sauron's War to retake the Rings
2. War of the Last Alliance 
3. Ar-Pharazôn conquest against Sauron?(Yeah, it can be considered as war, despite factual combat like skirmishes happened or not, after all the action of declaring wars took places)
4.Numenor's colonization over ME?(JRRT mentioned since King Ciryartur, Numenor have changed their policy to ME, and even "colonized" them, let's presume there're military conflicts at first)

Despite the 2 last ones are just presumed, there're only "2 wars" took places in the whole 2nd Age, O-O.... so...Numenor Empire's colonization seems to..."peaceful" XDDD. Anyway, there're some huger super bug listed
1. The Numenor Empire invaded Valinor directly...leaving their rear defenseless to the elves?We can make sure after the Numenor Empire changed their religious policy, their diplomatic with the elves must be horribly hell. Yet no wars seem take places nor be mentioned by JRRT, not even any relative words like "overcome", and so forth.
2. Since Sauron became the Numenor prime minister, the Faithfuls have started massive immigration to ME, and Sauron just let them prosper in the whole ME, along with Gil-Galad, til they're so powerful enough to kick his ass in the War of the Last Alliance, serious?
3. @Alcuin mentioned when Elendil arrived ME, he received a fully intact local government that Sauron "couldn't overcome" them, and Sauron should've known Valinor is much more powerful than these local warlords, and he did what we all knew latter...

In general, Numenor civil wars or Numenor-Elvish wars were absolutely supposed to take places yet not mentioned at all. What do you guys think?Of course you can all provide the other stuff correspond to the tile^^


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## Aldarion (Jul 28, 2020)

1) Numenorean colonization was definitely not peaceful. Even before colonization itself became violent, it was opposed by Sauron and his minions; and afterwards also by indigenous population of Middle Earth. We know that most forrests west of mountains were cut down or burned by Numenoreans - which was a tactic Romans too used against forrest-dwelling peoples. So conflict was constant - but did not necessarily involve large wars.
2) Noldor Elves seem to have colonized only northwestern Middle Earth, while Silvain Elves would not have been in position to oppose even auxilliary forces that may have been left behind. In any case, Sauron was already looking at Numenor's southern colonies as a source of recruits. So while northern colonies will have been defended by their own forces and Gil-Galad, southern colonies were likely protected - or at least not menaced - by Sauron and his minions.
3) It is noted that King's Men colonized towards south due to power of Gil-Galad. So between Gil-Galad's kingdom and increasing numbers of Faithful, northern colonies may have been too tough nut to crack even for Ar-Pharazon. And even if not, war would have been costly - spreading dominion over barbarians was definitely much easier.
4) Sauron never thought that Numenor could overcome the Valar. The whole idea behind that expedition was to get himself rid of Ar-Pharazon (who BTW was never mentioned as having children) and achieve dominance over Numenor. But Eru "overreacted" and significantly screwed up Sauron's plans.
5) Persecution of the Faithful was definitely mentioned. But my impression is that by that time they were too few to militarily resist - and it is unlikely they would have even tried doing so, as even a heretic, king of Numenor was still a King of Numenor.


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## Alcuin (Jul 28, 2020)

I am mostly in agreement with Aldarion. A few things to remember in this thread:
The men of Middle-earth viewed the Númenóreans as allies and teachers until after the War of the Elves and Sauron. I suspect this was because Sauron soon snared three influential Númenóreans in Middle-earth with some of the Nine Rings of Power. (See this essay for speculation on that.) 
There was never civil war among the Númenóreans. Never, not even when Ar-Pharazôn usurped the throne. There were apparently disturbances of some sort during the reign of Tar-Palantír, Ar-Pharazôn’s uncle and predecessor, but Ar-Pharazôn’s father Gimilkhâd did not rebel against his bother. 
Even when Ar-Gimilzôr, Tar-Palantír’s father, forced the Faithful to move from Andúnië to Rómenna, the Faithful either complied or emigrated to Middle-earth, to the future kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor, and it seems Ar-Gimilzôr preferred they emigrate. (Tar-Palantír probably rescinded that harsh decree, as he rescinded his father’s ban on public use of Sindarin rather than Adûnaic, but this is not specifically stated.) 
When Ar-Pharazôn sent his first armada to Middle-earth to contest the rule of Middle-earth with Sauron, the Faithful Númenóreans accompanied him. In the Appendices, it is reported that [E]ven the followers of Elendil remembered with pride the coming of the great host of Ar-Pharazôn out of the deeps of the Sea; and on the highest hill … above [Umbar] they had set a great white pillar as a monument. It was crowned with a globe of crystal that took the rays of the Sun and of the Moon and shone like a bright star that could be seen … even on the coasts of Gondor… [A]fter the second arising of Sauron, … Umbar fell under the domination of his servants, and the memorial of his humiliation was thrown down.​
If I remember aright, while the lifespans of the Dúnedain lessened after the reign of Tar-Atanamir, who refused to lay down his life and who rejected the advice of the embassy of Valinor against rebellion, it was not until Sauron came to Númenor and the Dúnedain apostatized that things really deteriorated. Men fell into madness and suffered insanity, and murder, which had beforehand been rare, became widespread. 
When Amandil, Elendil the Tall’s father and the last Lord of Andúnië, decided to break the Ban, sail to Eldamar, and warn the Valar of Ar-Pharazôn’s impending Sauronic attack upon Valinor, Elendil’s response was, *“Would you then bewray the King?”* (_Sauron Defeated_, “(ii) The original text of The Drowning of Anadûnê”) indicating that Elendil viewed this as a serious breach of morality and ethics despite his father’s good intentions. (bewray = disclose plans, inform upon, accuse, malign; it is close in meaning to but not the same as _betray_.) Nothing was ever discovered of Amandil’s mission after he departed Númenor, but Elendil and his family and followers did survive the dreadful Downfall.) 



Aldarion said:


> 4) Sauron never thought that Numenor could overcome the Valar. The whole idea behind that expedition was to get himself rid of Ar-Pharazon (who BTW was never mentioned as having children) and achieve dominance over Numenor. But Eru "overreacted" and significantly screwed up Sauron's plans.


Absolutely! His whole idea was to kill Ar-Pharazôn, who had dared to humiliate him, slaughter as many Dúnedain, descendents of his ancient enemies the Edain, as possible, and dominate the rest. From “Notes on motives in the Silmarillion” in the section “Myths Transformed” in _Morgoth’s Ring_:Sauron’s whole true motive was the destruction of the Númenóreans, … a particular matter of revenge upon Ar-Pharazôn, for humiliation. Sauron … would have been content for the Númenóreans to exist, _as his own subjects_, and indeed he used a great many of them that he corrupted to his allegiance.​ I wrote a tongue-in-cheek essay on that. 
I take some exception to the statement that _Eru “overreacted”_. The Númenóreans had turned their backs on Eru, whom they had worshipped, and accepted Sauron and Melkor as their gods. In doing so, they abandoned any claim to the Island of Andor, and so not only lost their native land, but their lives as well.
After the Downfall of Númenor, the surviving King’s Men adhered to Sauron on his return rather than to Elendil. No doubt they marched in Sauron’s armies against the Last Alliance, but I suspect most of their men-at-arms were lost in the futile and ill-fated invasion of Valinor; besides that, the western coasts of Middle-earth were struck by a tsunami when Númenor was overthrown and sank into the sea.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Jul 28, 2020)

Aldarion said:


> 1) Numenorean colonization was definitely not peaceful. Even before colonization itself became violent, it was opposed by Sauron and his minions; and afterwards also by indigenous population of Middle Earth. We know that most forrests west of mountains were cut down or burned by Numenoreans - which was a tactic Romans too used against forrest-dwelling peoples. So conflict was constant - but did not necessarily involve large wars.
> 2) Noldor Elves seem to have colonized only northwestern Middle Earth, while Silvain Elves would not have been in position to oppose even auxilliary forces that may have been left behind. In any case, Sauron was already looking at Numenor's southern colonies as a source of recruits. So while northern colonies will have been defended by their own forces and Gil-Galad, southern colonies were likely protected - or at least not menaced - by Sauron and his minions.
> 3) It is noted that King's Men colonized towards south due to power of Gil-Galad. So between Gil-Galad's kingdom and increasing numbers of Faithful, northern colonies may have been too tough nut to crack even for Ar-Pharazon. And even if not, war would have been costly - spreading dominion over barbarians was definitely much easier.


I see...so the Noldor states were truly strong enough to fight off even the Numenor invaders at least...yet not strong enough to unite the Faithfuls to overthrow the Numenor empire as well. Yet Numenor wars against the ME natives or Sauron's other puppets weren't large enough for they're a piece of cake to the Numenor empire. 
Then it comes to a new problem-could the Noldor factions ever stand a chance to overthrow the Numenor empire's King's men?



Aldarion said:


> 4) Sauron never thought that Numenor could overcome the Valar. The whole idea behind that expedition was to get himself rid of Ar-Pharazon (who BTW was never mentioned as having children) and achieve dominance over Numenor. But Eru "overreacted" and significantly screwed up Sauron's plans.
> 5) Persecution of the Faithful was definitely mentioned. But my impression is that by that time they were too few to militarily resist - and it is unlikely they would have even tried doing so, as even a heretic, king of Numenor was still a King of Numenor.


 Succeeding the last discussion, even if the Noldor weren't strong enough to invade Numenor mainland, yet when the Armada set out, it's garrisoned with nothing but non-combat personnel. Won't Sauron alert that in case?Ar-Pharazon's goal of invading Valinor is to seek immortality, so we can exclude any possibility of his will to wage war against the Noldor states.(The presumption is Ar-Pharazon's that after occuplying Valinor than use it as the base to retake their homeland and counter attack the elves). Yet Sauron seems have no plan B to handle any possible sneak attack from the Noldor states, nor the Noldor states seem to do so as well.

What do you think?


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## Alcuin (Jul 28, 2020)

Hisoka Morrow said:


> I see...so the Noldor states were truly strong enough to fight off even the Numenor invaders at least...yet not strong enough to unite the Faithfuls to overthrow the Numenor empire as well. Yet Numenor wars against the ME natives or Sauron's other puppets weren't large enough for they're a piece of cake to the Numenor empire.


The Kings’ Men among the Númenóreans were no longer in communion with the Eldar of either Middle-earth or of Eldamar (including Eressëa), but neither is there any indication that they were at war with them. The Númenóreans were envious of the longevity of the Eldar, which they mistook for immortality; but they did not contemplate making war upon them or killing them, particularly in Middle-earth. Under Sauron’s influence they foolishly sought immortality by seizing control of part of Aman, but again their deluded purpose was not so much to wage war upon the inhabitants as to subdue them and, so they believed, wrest for themselves immortality by virtue of living in Aman. The Noldor, especially the Noldor of Middle-earth, were of no particular concern to the Kings’ Men. The Noldor _were_ in communion with the Faithful Númenóreans, but again, there was no conflict between them. 


Hisoka Morrow said:


> Then it comes to a new problem-could the Noldor factions ever stand a chance to overthrow the Numenor empire's King's men?


Again, they were not at war, nor does Tolkien ever indicate they planned to be.



Hisoka Morrow said:


> ...even if the Noldor weren't strong enough to invade Numenor mainland, yet when the Armada set out, it's garrisoned with nothing but non-combat personnel. Won't Sauron alert that in case?Ar-Pharazon's goal of invading Valinor is to seek immortality, so we can exclude any possibility of his will to wage war against the Noldor states.(The presumption is Ar-Pharazon's that after occuplying Valinor than use it as the base to retake their homeland and counter attack the elves). Yet Sauron seems have no plan B to handle any possible sneak attack from the Noldor states, nor the Noldor states seem to do so as well.


What possible motivation would the Noldor, whether of Middle-earth or Eldamar, have in invading Númenor? And where did you get the notion that the Númenórean navy was “garrisoned with nothing but non-combat personnel”? No doubt the Númenóreans possessed an extensive merchant fleet, but the crews of even these were probably well-armed. And what “plan B” would Sauron have against the Elves? Since he dominated the remaining Númenóreans (excluding the Faithful), he would also achieve complete domination of Middle-earth as well, and could use Men to drive out the remaining Elves at his leisure. The Downfall of Númenor, and his own physical destruction thereby, took him completely by surprise. 

*Question, Hisoka Morrow:* Are you asking these questions as part of a role-playing game?


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## Hisoka Morrow (Jul 28, 2020)

Alcuin said:


> What possible motivation would the Noldor, whether of Middle-earth or Eldamar, have in invading Númenor?


OK, the Noldor were not that religiously zealous. I thought the hostility between the King's men and Noldor was so great that "might" cause conflicts due to religious issues, just like Muslim and Christian in Middle Age. Religions seem not as important as Middle Age. So their religious conflicts just simply stopped their communications and made the Noldor get envied.
BTW, waging wars against the Noldor elves doesn't match the King's men goal to gain immortality, so that's the main purpose why no wars between the King's men and the Noldor, right?^^



Alcuin said:


> And where did you get the notion that the Númenórean navy was “garrisoned with nothing but non-combat personnel”? No doubt the Númenóreans possessed an extensive merchant fleet, but the crews of even these were probably well-armed.


My mandarin version of Silmarillion has such description : Numenor fell with all it's kids, women, along with noble ladies(I can't use any screenshot in mid-week, so I 'll provide the source after a few days). Or maybe I am misunderstanding, thinking about that no males left on the mainland. 😳😳😳



Alcuin said:


> And what “plan B” would Sauron have against the Elves? Since he dominated the remaining Númenóreans (excluding the Faithful), he would also achieve complete domination of Middle-earth as well, and could use Men to drive out the remaining Elves at his leisure. The Downfall of Númenor, and his own physical destruction thereby, took him completely by surprise.
> 
> *Question, Hisoka Morrow:* Are you asking these questions as part of a role-playing game?


After the downfall, when Sauron returned to ME, he found that Gil-Galad was already a deadly threat, that's why he launched the War of the Last Alliance. The bug is if Sauron would also achieve complete domination of Middle-earth as well, then how can Gil-Galad rebuild the Noldor factions in just the period between the Downfall and Sauron's return.

It's another matter we presume Numenor Empire during Sauron's term of office as prime minister, he used the so-called USA or British domination, making his control of the ME limited, and having the factions against him, like Noldor exist as "local great power"(Like modern USA VS EU or Russia), yet at least not strong enough to bite him in the arse, or maybe using his puppets factions(Like Easterlings) to suppress them. Of course such Numenor Imperial strategy might be a special case, cause @Aldarion has mentioned Numenor was not an "naval base" empire.


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## Aldarion (Jul 28, 2020)

Alcuin said:


> I take some exception to the statement that _Eru “overreacted”_. The Númenóreans had turned their backs on Eru, whom they had worshipped, and accepted Sauron and Melkor as their gods. In doing so, they abandoned any claim to the Island of Andor, and so not only lost their native land, but their lives as well.



That is why it was with " ". He did not overreact objectively - but he certainly did from Sauron's perspective.



Hisoka Morrow said:


> I see...so the Noldor states were truly strong enough to fight off even the Numenor invaders at least...yet not strong enough to unite the Faithfuls to overthrow the Numenor empire as well. Yet Numenor wars against the ME natives or Sauron's other puppets weren't large enough for they're a piece of cake to the Numenor empire.
> Then it comes to a new problem-could the Noldor factions ever stand a chance to overthrow the Numenor empire's King's men?



No. For reasons of logistics, in premodern world especially, attacker always had to have massive superiority to facilitate conquest. So a conquest of a group or an area may be uneconomical or even impossible without said group ever being a major threat to people considering the conquest. But even disregarding that, why would Numenoreans have attempted conquest of elves? First, it would be difficult. Second, elves - in providing shelter for the Faithful - actually served to reduce discontent withing Numenor itself. Third, Numenoreans themselves had no issue with elves as such - their purpose was immortality. Which meant waging war against Aman, not against Elves of Middle Earth.



Hisoka Morrow said:


> Succeeding the last discussion, even if the Noldor weren't strong enough to invade Numenor mainland, yet when the Armada set out, it's garrisoned with nothing but non-combat personnel. Won't Sauron alert that in case?Ar-Pharazon's goal of invading Valinor is to seek immortality, so we can exclude any possibility of his will to wage war against the Noldor states.(The presumption is Ar-Pharazon's that after occuplying Valinor than use it as the base to retake their homeland and counter attack the elves). Yet Sauron seems have no plan B to handle any possible sneak attack from the Noldor states, nor the Noldor states seem to do so as well.



Again, logistics. Unless elves started preparting their own armada soon after (or even long before) Ar-Pharazon's preparations started - in which case they would be noticed - they would never reach Numenor in time.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Jul 28, 2020)

Well, thanks you 2 a lot 😘😘😘😘😘😘😘😘😘😘
I think I get it, so let me get these straight
1. Noldor states and King's men have no "unpreventable beneficial conflicts", making the former try to develop their pwoer to challenge the latter's hegemony, bumping into the Thucydides's Trap.
2. Numenor's culture has strong patriotism to prevent civil wars.
3. Numenor's special geographic environment. (Making none wanna invade it, like none wanna invade USA in nowdays)


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## Olorgando (Jul 28, 2020)

As Númenor's naval power grew, it probably reached a stage that they were by far the greatest naval power around. So it a way it might compare to the British Empire at its height of naval power pre WW I. It might even have been more overwhelming, perhaps like those huge ships and navies commanded by the Chinese fleet admiral Zheng He between 1405 and 1433. Though there are disputes about the true sizes of the ships, they were certainly far larger than anything before and for a long time after, perhaps even the largest wooden ships ever built.
In the later, imperial phase, Númenor began massive logging operations in Middle-earth (which didn't sit too well with the locals) so as to spare the forests on their own island. There sort of wasn't that much forest left for anyone else to build a rival navy, even if they had been so inclined (which apparently no one was).


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## Alcuin (Jul 28, 2020)

Aldarion said:


> Alcuin said:
> 
> 
> > I take some exception to the statement that _Eru “overreacted”_. ...
> ...


Lol! 🤣 I’m not sure Sauron’s perspective was incisive or accurate: his errors in _LotR_ may have been more subtle, but his error in Númenor was more fundamental: Eru cared! Again from the same passages in “Notes on motives” in _Morgoth’s Ring_:
​Sauron could not, of course, be a “sincere” atheist. Though one of the minor spirits created before the world, he knew Eru, according to his measure. He probably deluded himself with the notion that … Eru had simply abandoned Eä, or at any rate Arda, and would not concern himself with it any more. It would appear that he interpreted the “change of the world” at the Downfall of Númenor … in this sense: the Valar (and Elves) were removed from effective control [of Arda], and Men were under God’s curse and wrath. …​​Sauron was not a “sincere” atheist, but he preached atheism, because it weakened resistance to himself (and he had ceased to fear God’s action in Arda). ... His cunning motive is probably best expressed thus. To wean one of the God-fearing from their allegiance it is best to propound another _unseen_ object of allegiance and another hope of benefits; propound to him a Lord who will sanction what he desires and not forbid it.​​


Hisoka Morrow said:


> My mandarin version of Silmarillion…


Hisoka Morrow, your command of English seems strong enough to allow you to read the material in English. The Mandarin translation may have lost some of the flavor of the English text: It seems overly concerned with the political and military activities of the characters, but less with the moral and ethical problems they faced, which are, I think, the weightier issues. There is also no connexion, no _allegory_, between the wars of Middle-earth and those of the real world, though there may be, as Tolkien put it, _applicability_. There is certainly no Thucydides Trap, as is frequently discussed in topical essays opining on political and diplomatic tensions between the United States and China. The problems between Númenor and Mordor more closely resemble those between Greece (later Rome) and Persia, which lasted for about a thousand years, and later (in the Third Age) between Byzantium (which considered itself the heir and continuation of Rome) and the Moslem caliphate-states (which succeeded Persia). There is also considerable _applicability_ to the Norse explorers, venturers, and Vikings, as well as Roman Britain, Anglo-Saxon England, and the Norman rulers of the Medieval Age; but none of these comparisons are _allegorical_.


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## Aldarion (Jul 29, 2020)

Alcuin said:


> Lol! 🤣 I’m not sure Sauron’s perspective was incisive or accurate: his errors in _LotR_ may have been more subtle, but his error in Númenor was more fundamental: Eru cared! Again from the same passages in “Notes on motives” in _Morgoth’s Ring_:
> Sauron could not, of course, be a “sincere” atheist. Though one of the minor spirits created before the world, he knew Eru, according to his measure. He probably deluded himself with the notion that … Eru had simply abandoned Eä, or at any rate Arda, and would not concern himself with it any more. It would appear that he interpreted the “change of the world” at the Downfall of Númenor … in this sense: the Valar (and Elves) were removed from effective control [of Arda], and Men were under God’s curse and wrath. …Sauron was not a “sincere” atheist, but he preached atheism, because it weakened resistance to himself (and he had ceased to fear God’s action in Arda). ... His cunning motive is probably best expressed thus. To wean one of the God-fearing from their allegiance it is best to propound another _unseen_ object of allegiance and another hope of benefits; propound to him a Lord who will sanction what he desires and not forbid it.



Sauron had the same problem as Saruman: "a mind of wheels", as Treebeard put it. Both of them were master manipulators, yes, but in the end neither was able to actually understand their enemies. Morgoth never anticipated Valar intervening to save Middle Earth. Sauron apparently never anticipated Numenorean intervention in Second Age, nor that Free People would attempt to destroy the Ring in Third Age (nor did he anticipate Eru's intervention at the end).

And that is why I said: " He did not overreact objectively - but he certainly did from Sauron's perspective. ". Sauron's perspective was fundamentally flawed through his inability to understand any way of thinking different from his own.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Jul 29, 2020)

Aldarion said:


> Sauron had the same problem as Saruman: "a mind of wheels", as Treebeard put it. Both of them were master manipulators, yes, but in the end neither was able to actually understand their enemies. Morgoth never anticipated Valar intervening to save Middle Earth. Sauron apparently never anticipated Numenorean intervention in Second Age, nor that Free People would attempt to destroy the Ring in Third Age (nor did he anticipate Eru's intervention at the end).
> 
> And that is why I said: " He did not overreact objectively - but he certainly did from Sauron's perspective. ". Sauron's perspective was fundamentally flawed through his inability to understand any way of thinking different from his own.


Just as Sun Tzu said, "know thy enemy, know thyself, a thousand battles, a thousand victories."


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## Hisoka Morrow (Aug 6, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> As Númenor's naval power grew, it probably reached a stage that they were by far the greatest naval power around. So it a way it might compare to the British Empire at its height of naval power pre WW I. It might even have been more overwhelming, perhaps like those huge ships and navies commanded by the Chinese fleet admiral Zheng He between 1405 and 1433. Though there are disputes about the true sizes of the ships, they were certainly far larger than anything before and for a long time after, perhaps even the largest wooden ships ever built.
> In the later, imperial phase, Númenor began massive logging operations in Middle-earth (which didn't sit too well with the locals) so as to spare the forests on their own island. There sort of wasn't that much forest left for anyone else to build a rival navy, even if they had been so inclined (which apparently no one was).


Ahhh....yes, the overdeveloped resources made the Noldor states unable to build their own Armada, then this could get combined in to Aldarion's idea about logistic reason.


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## Olorgando (Aug 6, 2020)

Hisoka Morrow said:


> Ahhh....yes, the overdeveloped resources made the Noldor states unable to build their own Armada, then this could get combined in to Aldarion's idea about logistic reason.


I doubt the Noldor had any great interest in shipbuilding. The Teleri were the "Sea-Elves" and the great shipbuilders of the Elves - though I would seriously doubt that they got into the building of warships of any sort. Note that it Cirdan who is called the Shipbuilder, not Gil-galad or even Celebrimbor, who was a master smith.


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## Alcuin (Aug 6, 2020)

Hisoka Morrow said:


> Ahhh....yes, the overdeveloped resources made the Noldor states unable to build their own Armada, then this could get combined in to Aldarion's idea about logistic reason.


Again, I don’t believe the Eldar, whether Noldor or Sindar or Telerin, ever entertained _any_ prospect of assaulting Númenor itself or the Númenóreans in Middle-earth. 

There were two aggressive military actions by the Eldar, the Noldor and Sindar, in Middle-earth: the War of the Jewels in the First Age, which conflated with the earlier wars between Morgoth’s servants and the Sindar in Beleriand; and the War of the Last Alliance against Sauron in Mordor at the end of the Second Age. The War of the Elves and Sauron in the middle of the Second Age was a purely defensive war for the Elves, one they could not avoid; for that matter, the War of the Last Alliance was also a war the Elves and their Númenórean allies under Elendil could not avoid. While there were skirmishes and brief fighting between Elves and Orcs throughout Tolkien’s legendarium (to the end of the Third Age), there do not appear to have been any other major military actions on the part of the Elves. And the only war ever _launched_ by Elves was the War of the Jewels in retaliation for Morgoth’s murder of Finwë and theft of the silmarilli. 

While I admire your research into Tolkien’s legendarium, I think you are viewing Tolkien’s Elves through a lens that, in my humble opinion, distorts his vision of how they thought and acted, with the exception of Fëanor and his sons.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Aug 6, 2020)

Alcuin said:


> Again, I don’t believe the Eldar, whether Noldor or Sindar or Telerin, ever entertained _any_ prospect of assaulting Númenor itself or the Númenóreans in Middle-earth.


Yeah, I'm discussing why didn't they entertained any such prospect?As all the stuff I've gathered into 2 summary 
1. Strategic goal of Numenor to gain immortality didn't threaten the elvish states.
2. Logistic, as Aldarion has said before.
I'm just simply discussing combination between Olorgando and Aldarion's idea.
Worry not^^



Alcuin said:


> There were two aggressive military actions by the Eldar, the Noldor and Sindar, in Middle-earth: the War of the Jewels in the First Age, which conflated with the earlier wars between Morgoth’s servants and the Sindar in Beleriand; and the War of the Last Alliance against Sauron in Mordor at the end of the Second Age. The War of the Elves and Sauron in the middle of the Second Age was a purely defensive war for the Elves, one they could not avoid; for that matter, the War of the Last Alliance was also a war the Elves and their Númenórean allies under Elendil could not avoid. While there were skirmishes and brief fighting between Elves and Orcs throughout Tolkien’s legendarium (to the end of the Third Age), there do not appear to have been any other major military actions on the part of the Elves. And the only war ever _launched_ by Elves was the War of the Jewels in retaliation for Morgoth’s murder of Finwë and theft of the silmarilli.
> 
> While I admire your research into Tolkien’s legendarium, I think you are viewing Tolkien’s Elves through a lens that, in my humble opinion, distorts his vision of how they thought and acted, with the exception of Fëanor and his sons.


So...even any elvish military conflicts against Dol Goldur or Angamar were all merely skirmishes instead of grand campaigns?!!!
OK...ok...I must have gotten misunderstood that these 2 wars were something look like the Crusade...


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## Hisoka Morrow (Aug 6, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> I doubt the Noldor had any great interest in shipbuilding. The Teleri were the "Sea-Elves" and the great shipbuilders of the Elves - though I would seriously doubt that they got into the building of warships of any sort. Note that it Cirdan who is called the Shipbuilder, not Gil-galad or even Celebrimbor, who was a master smith.


Hmm.....🧐🧐🧐, I wonder if the Noldor and Sindar have been merged into the same nation or state or not. After all, only marriage between Celeborn and Galadriel might allow this merge to take place. And their marriage happened before the ring of power was forged, so I wonder if Gil-galad can work out with Cirdan to build their own Armada(With the latter provide naval tech yet the former provide possibly ground military stuff).
Of course let's just discuss if Noldor are interesting and able in Armada construction or not. 
Since the 2nd Age has started, Noldor and Sindar seem to have much better diplomatic status in comparison with the 1st Age, so I'm not sure we can presume that cultural interchange between them must be very much more frequent.


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## Olorgando (Aug 7, 2020)

Hisoka Morrow said:


> ...
> Of course let's just discuss if Noldor are interesting and able in Armada construction or not.
> ...


Personally, I do not believe the Noldor (and even less the Sindar, though they were the shipbuilders) had the slightest interest in constructing an kind of "armada", so no.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Aug 7, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> Personally, I do not believe the Noldor (and even less the Sindar, though they were the shipbuilders) had the slightest interest in constructing an kind of "armada", so no.


Hmm.....exactly...after all they're not so hostile or full of conflicts to any powerful naval power like Numenor(Who only want immortality), Umbar(Too far), Gondor(Allies)


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## rollinstoned (Aug 7, 2020)

Where does Albus Dumbledore fit into this?


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## Olorgando (Aug 7, 2020)

rollinstoned said:


> Where does Albus Dumbledore fit into this?


Ehwot???
You do throw a mean curveball, rolli, or was that a knuckleball? 
As my knowledge of the Rowling legendarium is close to zero (books and films), I can only venture a wild guess:
Dumbledore is a Gandalf clone? (Obi-wan Kenobi *definitely* was, as George Lucas once confessed.)


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## Hisoka Morrow (Aug 7, 2020)

rollinstoned said:


> Where does Albus Dumbledore fit into this?





Olorgando said:


> Ehwot???
> You do throw a mean curveball, rolli, or was that a knuckleball?
> As my knowledge of the Rowling legendarium is close to zero (books and films), I can only venture a wild guess:
> Dumbledore is a Gandalf clone? (Obi-wan Kenobi *definitely* was, as George Lucas once confessed.)


DIE YOU 2 HERETIC!IN THE EMPEROR'S NAME!!!!!


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## Olorgando (Aug 7, 2020)

That's definitely *not* Obi-wan Kenobi!


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## Alcuin (Aug 11, 2020)

Hisoka Morrow said:


> ...even any elvish military conflicts against Dol Goldur or Angamar were all merely skirmishes instead of grand campaigns?


The war with Angmar after the final destruction of Arthedain and the Witch-king’s occupation of Fornost Erain was most like a medieval Crusade, but only on the part of Gondor, which sent an expeditionary force by sea to Lindon. Gondor’s army, which was only a small part of its military power, greatly outnumbered the combined forces of the Dúnedain and Eldar of Eregion Lindon. They alone seem to have been able to easily defeat the army of Angmar, but only the appearance of Glorfindel with a cavalry from Rivendell at the end of the penultimate battle defeated the Witch-king. The fighting between Thranduil and Dol Guldur was not at the level of open warfare until the War of the Ring.



Hisoka Morrow said:


> Since the 2nd Age has started, Noldor and Sindar seem to have much better diplomatic status in comparison with the 1st Age, so I'm not sure we can presume that cultural interchange between them must be very much more frequent.


The Eldar of Tol Eressëa remained friends with the Lords of Andúnië until the death of Elendil: one of the reasons they gave the palantíri to Elendil’s father was to maintain contact with the Faithful Númenóreans, who were their friends. Gil-galad and the Númenóreans maintained cordial relations until the Númenóreans began ignoring him in the second half of the Second Age. The (very) successful intervention of the Númenóreans in the War of the Elves and Sauron was prompted by a plea from Gil-galad that suppose could be described as diplomatic request. But note: there are _no Elvish diplomats_ described in Tolkien’s work in the courts of either Armenelos (Númenor) or Lindon.

Now there is a visitation from Eldamar and Tol-Eressëa to the court of Tar-Atanamir in Armenelos in the middle of the Second Age that _is_ described as an _embassy_. To set the background, it was Tar-Atanamir’s grandfather, Tar-Minastir who is credited with sending the Númenórean expeditionary force to assist Gil-galad in the War of the Elves and Sauron, probably acting as co-regent (_Karma-kundo_, or “Helm-guardian”) for his aunt, Tar-Telperiën, second Ruling Queen of Númenor. I proposed some years ago that the three Númenórean Nazgûl were entrapped (still as men, but with Rings of Power) soon after the war and flourished under the reign of Tar-Ciryatan, Tar-Minastir’s son and successor and Tar-Atanamir’s father, and that the man who eventually became the Witch-king greatly influenced the Númenórean royal court so that “the Shadow [fell] on Númenor.” The Eldarin Embassy to Tar-Atanamir tried to dissuade him from turning his back on the old beliefs and religious practices of his Dúnedain forefathers, and not to rebel against Eru and the Valar, but to no avail: Tar-Atanamir was not convinced, nor was he particularly receptive to their arguments. He refused to lay down his life, clinging to it and his royal power until he died aged 421 years, the longest-recorded life of any Númenórean.

The Noldor in the First Age, with the exception of Turgon after his move to the Hidden City of Gondolin, maintained contacts with one another throughout the First Age. Thingol maintained contacts with all the Sindar of Beleriand, particularly Círdan, who was his kinsman (though we are not told their precise relationship), and it appears that Círdan maintained contacts with some of the Noldorin princes who neighbored him.

Gil-galad ruled over the Noldor of Lindon until his death at the end of the Second Age. Círdan ruled over the Sindar of Lindon in the Second Age. Also during the Second Age, Celebrimbor and Galadriel together established Eregion, which as a (mostly) Noldorin realm was technically under the suzerainty of Gil-galad, but in fact operated more as an independent entity in which there were also a number of Sindar and Eldar of mixed Sindarin-Noldorin blood. (Pengoloð, the Elvish historian and scholar from whom many of the histories come that Tolkien pretends (“pretends” is not the correct word, which presently escapes me) to recite, is of Sindarin-Noldorin heritage who lived in Eregion; after the War of the Elves and Sauron, he sojourned in Númenor for many years on his way to Tol Eressëa, and the Dúnedain learned much Elvish history from him.) Eventually Galadriel was expelled from Eregion because of friction between her and Annatar (Sauron in disguise), and she and Celeborn took up residence in Lórien. In the Third Age, the Noldor no longer recognized a political leader or maintained a polity (political state), though Galadriel was certainly the most noble of all the Noldor remaining in Middle-earth, the only member of the royal House of Finwë still alive: Elrond was also a descendant of the House of Finwë (through his grandmother, Idril, only child and daughter of Turgon), but he never seems to have taken any position other than that of Gil-galad’s herald; so it would seem that the recognized leader of Lindon was Círdan for the Sindar, the remaining Noldor, and those of mixed heritage. The kingdom of Arnor maintained contacts with both the Eldar of Lindon and with Rivendell, and after the ruin of Arthedain, the Northern Dúnedain were in many ways a protectorate of Rivendell; but none of these polities are reported to have maintained the kinds of formal relations that we would recognize as modern diplomacy.

The closest things to diplomacy that we see in _Lord of the Rings_ are these:

Círdan sends Galdor to Elrond to ask for his advice;
Thranduil sends his son Legolas to Elrond to inform him (and Gandalf, if he did not first pass through Thranduil’s realm before he heard it from Elrond) of Gollum’s escape;
Boromir went to seek for Elrond to interpret the dream he and Faramir had;
Arvedui, who had a dynastic marriage with Fíriel, daughter of King Ondoher of Gondor, and the Council of Gondor communicated through their respective palantíri over the succession after Ondoher and both his sons died;
Eärnil II, who eventually was chosen by the Council of Gondor to succeed Ondoher as King of Gondor over the claims of Arvedui and Fíriel, wrote a letter to Arvedui promising continued friendship and military assistance if Arthedain required it;
Eärnur, Eärnur’s son, did come north to Lindon with that assistance, though too late to save Arthedain from destruction;
Elrond sent his sons to Lórien to report their deliberations and seek advice after the Council of Elrond.
None of these counts as what we would nowadays call “diplomacy”, but in ancient days (e.g., during the European Dark and Middle Ages, or during the Bronze Age), this is how diplomacy might have been conducted.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Aug 18, 2020)

Alcuin said:


> None of these counts as what we would nowadays call “diplomacy”


Hmm........=''=.......I see, and the alliance formed with the Wainriders as core was also some alliance like the Anti-Qin Alliance of China's Warring's states period, a alliance formed by one-man efforts instead of long-term services international ambassadors. Professional ambassadors didn't exist in JRRT's lore, all ambassadors were appointed impromptu, such as the Mouth of Sauron, that's why you say there're no modern diplomacy in JRRT's lore, right?^^


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## Alcuin (Aug 19, 2020)

I think so, Hisoka Morrow. During the Warring States and Spring and Autumn periods, there were ambassadors who went from kingdom to kingdom to deliver messages, arrange marriages and alliances, gather intelligence, and sometimes to mislead other rulers, but they were not, as I understand Chinese history, permanently assigned professional diplomats who might stay on post for decades. (Soviet Ambassador Anatoly Dobrynin, for instance, was on post in Washington from 1962 until 1986.) 

All over the world, suzerains caused vassals to leave their children with them as hostages, but these children were not ambassadors: far from it, since they grew up in the households of their overlords, and were educated in the ways and cultures of the more powerful kingdom. But these connections, language skills, and insights into other royal and noble houses could make them valuable as messengers or “ambassadors” at need.


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## Olorgando (Aug 19, 2020)

Alcuin said:


> ...
> All over the world, suzerains caused vassals to leave their children with them as hostages, but these children were not ambassadors: far from it, since they grew up in the households of their overlords, and were educated in the ways and cultures of the more powerful kingdom. But these connections, language skills, and insights into other royal and noble houses could make them valuable as messengers or “ambassadors” at need.


Quite right. And it can backfire very badly, as the Romans in the time of Augustus learned.

"Arminius (German: Hermann; 18/17 BC – AD 21) was a chieftain of the Germanic Cherusci tribe who is best known for commanding an alliance of Germanic tribes at the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest in AD 9, in which three Roman legions under the command of general Publius Quinctilius Varus were destroyed.
Born a prince of the Cherusci tribe, Arminius was made a hostage of the Roman Empire as a child. Raised in Rome, he was drafted into the Roman military at an early age, during which he was granted Roman citizenship and became a Roman knight. After serving with distinction in the Great Illyrian Revolt, he was sent to Germania to aid the local governor Publius Quinctilius Varus in completing the Roman conquest of the Germanic tribes. While in this capacity, Arminius secretly plotted a Germanic revolt against Roman rule, which culminated in the ambush and destruction of three Roman legions in the Teutoburg Forest."


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## Alcuin (Aug 19, 2020)

Suetonius, _Twelve Caesars_, “Book II: Augustus”, paragraph 23:
Graves ignominias cladesque duas omnino nec alibi quam in Germania accepit, Lollianam et Varianam, sed Lollianam maioris infamiae quam detrimenti, Varianam paene exitiabilem tribus legionibus cum duce legatisque et auxiliis omnibus caesis. Hac nuntiata excubias per urbem indixit, ne quis tumultus exsisteret, et praesidibus provinciarum propagavit imperium, ut a peritis et assuetis socii continerentur. Vovit et magnos ludos Iovi Optimo Maximo, si res p. in meliorem statum vertisset: quod factum Cimbrico Marsicoque bello erat. Adeo denique consternatum ferunt, ut per continuos menses barba capilloque summisso caput interdum foribus illideret vociferans: Quintili Vare, legiones redde. diemque cladis quotannis maestum habuerit ac lugubrem.​Translated,
He [Caesar Augustus] suffered but two severe and ignominious defeats, those of Lollius and Varus, both of which were in Germany. Of these the former was more humiliating than serious, but the latter was almost fatal, since three legions were cut to pieces with their general, his lieutenants, and all the auxiliaries. When the news of this came, he ordered that watch be kept by night throughout the city, to prevent outbreak, and prolonged the terms of the governors of the provinces, that the allies might be held to their allegiance by experienced men with whom they were acquainted. He also vowed great games to Jupiter Optimus Maximus, in case the condition of the commonwealth should improve, a thing which had been done in the Cimbric and Marsic wars. In fact, they say that he was so greatly affected that for several months in succession he cut neither his beard nor his hair, and sometimes he would dash his head against a door, crying: *“Quintilius Varus, give me back my legions!”* and he observed the day of the disaster each year as one of sorrow and mourning.​


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 29, 2020)

I stumbled across this ancient thread. Mostly Third Age, but rather than chasing down the most relevant of Hisoka's many military threads, I append it here:









Armies of Middle Earth


It has long been an interest of mine to determine the approximate size of the armies of Middle Earth aournd the time of the War of the Ring. I would like to run my conclusions past the readers and participants of the forum to see if anyone has any additional information to add or suggestions to...




www.thetolkienforum.com


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