# Are Orcs Moriquendi?



## TolkienNewbie (Jul 21, 2015)

I'm trying to work out the classifications in my head, but the elves at tol errissae (sp?) said that Melkor corrupted some of the Avari to create the Orcs. The definition of "moriquendi" is just dark elves, the elves that never saw the light of the trees in Aman. So if the Orcs are descendant of the Avari, does that make them Avari and therefore moriquendi? Or are they so corrupted they can't even be considered Quendi?
Thanks!


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## Alcuin (Jul 21, 2015)

That’s a good question, and one that Tolkien worked on for many years. 

It certainly seems that his first conception was that Orcs were Elves corrupted and twisted by Morgoth. Tolkien even comments that this was the worst of Morgoth’s acts. 

Later, he decided that they couldn’t be twisted Elves: they must have been Men captured and twisted by Morgoth; but that begs the question how these perverted creatures came to fight the Elves before Men appeared. About the same time, he seems to have decided that Orcs were not long-lived, either, even by the standards of Men. 

There is a section in _Morgoth’s Ring_, “Myths Transformed”, in which Christopher Tolkien tries to make sense of his father’s notes and changing views on the origins of Orcs. CJRT organizes and recites them, but one is left with the distinct impression that he is less than satisfied by them, and many questions remain. 

Some of the issues are:

Did fallen Maiar (_Umaiar_) take the form of Orcs? In the earlier telling of the tales, there was a character, Boldog, that was in fact a lesser _Umaia_ in Morgoth’s service. (The greater _Umaiar_ included the Balrogs(the words _Boldog_ and _Balrog_ are quite similar…); the greatest was Sauron.) I think I recall that in _Lays of Beleriand_, Elu Thingol kills Boldog during an Orc-raid on Doriath, the Battle of the North March. 
Were early Orcs Elves? – the very question you have asked.
Were later Orcs – or all Orcs – corrupted Men?
Were Shagrat and Gorbag (in _Two Towers_) personally reminiscing about the “good old days” when Orcs raided Men and Elves for booty and captives, or were they reciting recollections (Orcish folk-tales, if you will)? 
Might Elves being corrupted into Orcs explain some of the horror of Thangorodrim? 
If all Orcs were Men (as Tolkien surmised late in life), where did the early First Age Orcs whom the Sindar of Beleriand fight come from?

For my part, if there were a poll in this thread, I’d vote for “early Orcs were corrupted Elves and later Orcs included corrupted Men”. That would imply that early Orcs lived long lives (reflecting their Elvish origins), but (almost) all later Orcs lived shorter lives (Mannish origins, with all mixed-heritage Orcs living shorter lives).


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## Elthir (Jul 23, 2015)

> It certainly seems that his first conception was that Orcs were Elves corrupted and twisted by Morgoth. Tolkien even comments that this was the worst of Morgoth’s acts.


 
Perhaps you mean first conception in a specific sense here, but this conception did not actually arise first, as for decades Tolkien believed that Morgoth made Orcs, out of various things but not already living beings (he used heats and slime, stone and hatred, for early examples).

Despite Frodo's interesting comment after being rescued from Cirith Ungol, the Orcs from Elves idea doesn't hit paper, specifically, until the early 1950s. Treebeard only says Orcs were made _in mockery_ of Elves, which is still true within the conception that Morgoth made Orcs from stone and hatred.



> Later, he decided that they couldn’t be twisted Elves: they must have been Men captured and twisted by Morgoth; but that begs the question how these perverted creatures came to fight the Elves before Men appeared. About the same time, he seems to have decided that Orcs were not long-lived, either, even by the standards of Men.


 
In the text in which Orcs hail from Men, the timeline of Men's arising is pushed further back in an attempt to solve this question. Also in the same text, there were Orc formed Maiar who could account for early orcs _in some measure_, although the numbers of these is another question.



> (... ) Some of the issues are: Did fallen Maiar (_Umaiar_) take the form of Orcs? In the earlier telling of the tales, there was a character, Boldog, that was in fact a lesser _Umaia_ in Morgoth’s service. (The greater _Umaiar_ included the Balrogs (the words _Boldog_ and _Balrog_ are quite similar…); the greatest was Sauron.) I think I recall that in _Lays of Beleriand_, Elu Thingol kills Boldog during an Orc-raid on Doriath, the Battle of the North March.


 
If we look at each of the texts in _Myths Transformed,_ Orc-formed Maiar are really a fairly consistent conception here. For myself, I think this idea was going to hold.



> If all Orcs were Men (as Tolkien surmised late in life), where did the early First Age Orcs whom the Sindar of Beleriand fight come from?


 
Even if it goes against the implication of the text in which Orcs hail from Men (where again, the awakening of Men has been pushed back), the idea that there were "enough" orc formed Maiar could (might) have served this purpose I think.

For clarity I'm not saying that this was Tolkien's idea, merely that I see no great reason (yet) why it should not be open to him. There need not have been vast numbers of Orc-maiar however, as their power was greater than ordinary orcs, although Tolkien, _if_ he took up this idea that is, would arguably need to tinker with his descriptions of early battles. In short "some" existed early on, why not "enough" for Tolkien's needs?

Of course, within the assumption that JRRT ultimately went with Orcs being corrupted Men, that is.

Chronology-wise (from an external point of view, meaning Tolkien musing about this matter), my guess would be that Orcs from Men is the "last known" idea. Not only does Christopher Tolkien characterize the "Orcs from Men text" as representing Tolkien's final view -- if immediately throwing some doubt upon his own characterization here -- there is also the note to the Druedain, which seems fairly late...

_"To the unfriendly who, not knowing them well, declared that Morgoth must have bred the Orcs from such a stock the Eldar answered: "Doubtless Morgoth, since he can make no living thing, bred Orcs from various kinds of Men, but the Druedain must have escaped his Shadow; for their laughter and the laughter of Orcs are as different as is the light of Aman from the darkness of Angband."_

One might say that perhaps this only represents the Eldarin perspective, but I note that the Wise of Eressea thinking that Morgoth bred Orcs from captured Elves was an Elvish perspective too, in any case. Again, the _external_ chronology here is not a slam dunk, but going into the reasons why is a little complicated, and in the end won't_ certainly_ give us "last known" in any case.

Let's say: if I had to guess


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## Blueduindain (Aug 15, 2018)

Yeah, i agree that the first Orcs were corrupted elves;but in the Hobbit,goblin children were referenced; so i believe that orcs after a certain point were born naturally.(or formed from mud,in the movie's case whatever.) I mean it makes more sense,it would be a waste of time to keep kidnapping people.


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## Ithilethiel (Aug 15, 2018)

TolkienNewbie said:


> I'm trying to work out the classifications in my head, but the elves at tol errissae (sp?) said that Melkor corrupted some of the Avari to create the Orcs. The definition of "moriquendi" is just dark elves, the elves that never saw the light of the trees in Aman. So if the Orcs are descendant of the Avari, does that make them Avari and therefore moriquendi? Or are they so corrupted they can't even be considered Quendi?
> Thanks!



Great question *TolkienNewbie*. I cannot improve upon the learned answers given before me but welcome, welcome to TTF!


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