# The Fifth Battle



## Sauron (Aug 20, 2008)

Let's assume that Ulfang and Uldor had not proven treacherous, and the hosts of Fingon, Maedhros, Turgon, the House of Hador, as well as their Eastern allies prevailed in the battle otherwise known to us as the 'Nirnaeth Arnoediad'.

What difference would this victory have made, ultimately, in the long-running war between the allied forces of the Eldar and the Edain, and Morgoth -beyond postponing their demise before a superior foe (who was, after all, still a Vala)?


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## nodnarb (Aug 20, 2008)

i think that elves would of trusted men more maybe in the future..i think it says something about their relationships never being the same after that...i think?


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## Illuin (Aug 21, 2008)

Hmmm....allow me to ponder this for a bit.


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## Bucky (Aug 21, 2008)

What difference would this victory have made, ultimately, in the long-running war between the allied forces of the Eldar and the Edain, and Morgoth -beyond postponing their demise before a superior foe (who was, after all, still a Vala)?

*Well, triumph on the field of Battle would not have necessarliy meant triumph over the fortress of Angband.....

Another Siege may well have been instituted, then broken once Morgoth regained his strength.

As for Morgoth being a Vala, as I've stated repeatedly, by this time, as Tolkien wrote in HoME Volume 10, Morgoth had poured out mostly all his power into all his various creatures & had less power than Sauron in the 2nd Age.
The big problem with taking Morgoth out to the Noldor would've simply been defeat in battle, but as Fingolfin held his own for a while, I suspect 3 or 4 of the Elves at once could have made him 'halt of two feet' just as easily as Eonwe & Company  *


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## baragund (Aug 21, 2008)

Sauron, I think you need to elaborate a little more on what you mean by "prevailing". Are we talking about vanquishing Morgoth's armies on the field of battle, are we talking about destroying Angband in a similar manner as the War of Wrath or are we talking about something else.

If it is something short of destroying Angband, chaining Morgoth and putting him on a slow boat to Valinor, I am inclined to think the outcome would be some kind of postponement of the inevitable. Morgoth would regain his strength, do a better jobe of sowing discord among the allies and try again.


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## chrysophalax (Aug 21, 2008)

Yes, a little clarification is in order, I believe.


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## Illuin (Aug 21, 2008)

Looking at "the big picture"; I think it would simply be postponement of a future victory for Mel; and it could possibly have turned out worse if Morgoth had lost the Fifth Battle. He could have unleashed the terrible host he used during the War of Wrath, without the host of the West being present. Ancalagon would have had a field day. In the long run, the way everything transpired; the chain of events sparked by the Nirnaeth was probably the best possible way to defeat Morgoth. If it wasn’t for those idiots from the Feanor clan after Mel was captured; it would have been a happy ending.

That was the “big picture”; as for smaller matters, we have to address Hurin. I think it is a foregone conclusion that Hurin would not have been captured, and his family cursed if the good guys had been victorious in the Fifth Battle. That leads me to believe that Turin's life; though he would have been a handful; would probably not have been significant enough to write in the tale (maybe). Hurin would not have been bitter, thus him bringing the Nauglamir to Thingol would more than likely not have occurred; and the battle with the Dwarves would have been prevented. Melian would have remained, thus the dopey Feanor sons would not have been able to raid Doriath; the Silmaril would have remained in Doriath; Earendil would not have made his voyage; and Ancalagon would have had his field day .


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## Sauron (Sep 7, 2008)

baragund said:


> Sauron, I think you need to elaborate a little more on what you mean by "prevailing". Are we talking about vanquishing Morgoth's armies on the field of battle, are we talking about destroying Angband in a similar manner as the War of Wrath or are we talking about something else.
> 
> If it is something short of destroying Angband, chaining Morgoth and putting him on a slow boat to Valinor, I am inclined to think the outcome would be some kind of postponement of the inevitable. Morgoth would regain his strength, do a better jobe of sowing discord among the allies and try again.



I meant in terms of vanquishing Morgoth's armies on the field of battle in a manner similar to all the prior ones (with the notable exception of the Dagor Bragollach). 

I think it is more than clear that the Eldar and the Edain did not have the capacity to overthrow Morgoth and destroy Angband without the assistance of the Valar from Aman.


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## Burzum (Oct 18, 2008)

Even if the Easterlings remained loyal, I doubt that the Noldor and co would have had as big a victory as to form another siege. It probably would have remained at continuing the status quo. 

For the big picture... how about this? Hithlum reamins under the rule of the House of Fingolfin and the House of Hador, and thus Tuor and Turin don't go anywhere else. Tuor never meets Idril, and Earendil is never born. Morgoth keeps building up his power, and then at some point unleashes Ancalagon and the dragon fleet to utterly devastate everything, and yet the host of Valinor doesn't come due to the lack of Earendil's existence. Beleriand is overrun, and only after some time would Valinor move, destroying Beleriand itself (as it has happened) in the process of destroying Morgoth. So, the Second Age of the Sun begins, but without the Noldor and the Edain (hence no Numenor). Sauron, as he would, flees, and after the host of Valinor departs he gathers his forces, slaughtering the remaining Dwarves, Men, and Elves (the Nandor and possibly the Avari). Then he claims kingship of Middle-Earth. The Valar, seeing that everything good in Middle-earth has been destroyed anyway, don't bother and let Sauron rule forever.


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