# "the nameless things"



## Ralmighty (May 4, 2011)

I'm a lifelong Tolkien fan but am new to this forum so if this topic has been discussed before I apologise. Does anyone have any ideas what the "nameless things that Gnaw the earth" are as this particular passage has always intrigued me


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## Peeping-Tom (May 5, 2011)

Somewhere in the books, it is written that many spirits from the void entered Ea and hid themselves on Arda in different shapes and forms...

I'll be back with the quote as soon as I can... unless someone beats me to it.

Edit : Found a quote...
Edit 2 : I of course believe, that these spirits accounts for all- & everything, that we cannot find a meaning/description to, like the Watcher.



> Book of Lost Tales #1, The Chaining of Melkor : _*At that time did many strange spirits fare into the world, for there were pleasant places dark and quiet for them to dwell in...
> ...Still is the world full of these in the days of light, lingering alone in shadowy hearts of primeval forests, calling secret things across a starry waste, and haunting caverns in the hills that few have found: -- but the pinewoods are yet too full of these old unelfin and inhuman spirits for the quietude of Eldar or of Men.
> *_


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## LUCIFER (Jan 9, 2012)

Hello, does that mean then that all of these "nameless fears" were created by Illuvatar or the Valar or by...something else? and if they crept from the void where is the void and surely the void should be closed right?


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## Starbrow (Jan 9, 2012)

I always assumed that they were Maia that joined with Morgoth in the beginning.


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## Mike (Jan 12, 2012)

Really? I thought he was referring to Cthulhu and all the other elder gods. (Come now, we KNOW who those tentacles outside the gates or Moria were _really _​serving...)


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## morgoth145 (Apr 14, 2012)

i think i read in the same passage that the ''nameless things'' are older than Sauron.
so would the nameless things be created before the Ainur were?


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## jallan (Apr 14, 2012)

morgoth145 said:


> i think i read in the same passage that the ''nameless things'' are older than Sauron.
> so would the nameless things be created before the Ainur were?



Not necessarily. Tolkien nowhere claims that the Ainur were created all at once, or even that the Valar were all created before the Maiar. In the “Valaquenta” within the published _Silmarillion_ the Vala Námo (Mandos) is said to be elder than his brother Irmo (Lórien). But nowhere is it indicated that Sauron was the eldest of the Maiar.


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## Bucky (Apr 15, 2012)

jallan said:


> Not necessarily. Tolkien nowhere claims that the Ainur were created all at once, or even that the Valar were all created before the Maiar. In the “Valaquenta” within the published _Silmarillion_ the Vala Námo (Mandos) is said to be elder than his brother Irmo (Lórien). But nowhere is it indicated that Sauron was the eldest of the Maiar.



*The 'Nameless Things' being 'older than he' (Sauron) is clearly referring to the time of entering Arda in my opinion, not 'time of creation by Eru'.

Otherwise, it doesn't have any type of canonical backing.*


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## jallan (Apr 15, 2012)

Bucky said:


> *The 'Nameless Things' being 'older than he' (Sauron) is clearly referring to the time of entering Arda in my opinion, not 'time of creation by Eru'.*



That some beings are older than Sauron does not _clearly_ to me indicate any such thing as referring necessarily to the time of entering Arda. 

Tulkas entered Arda later than the other Valar but he is not called the ‘youngest’ of the Valar.

Even if you were right, nowhere is it stated that Sauron was the first Maia/Úmaia to enter Arda. Either interpretation of the phrase allows for Maiar/Úmaiar who are older than Sauron without difficulty.

You admit that it only your ‘opinion’ that your interpretation of the phrase is correct. You would be unlikely to used the word _opinion_ if the matter was really ‘clear’.



> *Otherwise, it doesn't have any type of canonical backing.*



The mention of some beings older than Sauron only occurs once in Tolkien’s writing. Of course, otherwise, it doesn’t have any other backing. I’m at a loss as to what you think you are proving by noting that other than that one statement, it doesn’t have any type of canonical backing.


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## Bucky (Apr 15, 2012)

Yeah, I think I'm correct in what I say about Sauron, but I'll agree you have a valid point & what you say about Namo is dead on.

Cool?

Here's something to think about:

Bombadil to the hobbits at his house:

"When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars before it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from the Outside."

Care to take a wack at this one?

I think I have a fairly good take on this one, but you go first.... ;*)

Of course, Tom says more, but I type with one finger, lol, & this is the vital info pertinent to this discussion ~ or is it? :*confused:

BTW: I think this also backs up my "older than he" theory being based on entering Arda, but no use rehashing that as it's non-provable & opinion only........


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## jallan (Apr 18, 2012)

My point was that whether Sauron’s age is to be measured from his creation or from his coming to Middle-earth, in either case there is no difficulty in there being Úmaiar who were older than he.

There is no answer that explains Tom Bombadil’s statement in works published in Tolkien’s lifetime. If one takes the Christopher Tolkien _Simarillion_ as binding, then it might refer either to an ancient period before the First War or to a later period when Morgoth has been driven off but before the creation of the Two Lamps.

On the other hand it might refer to an early “Myths Transformed” story, that is to a version of the war between the Valar and Melkor not otherwise related by Tolkien.


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## Bucky (Apr 20, 2012)

The part I was getting at was this:

_Which _Dark Lord? :*confused:

I think it must be Melkor.


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## jallan (Apr 20, 2012)

Bucky said:


> The part I was getting at was this:
> 
> _Which _Dark Lord? :*confused:
> 
> I think it must be Melkor.



Mostly it is just assumed that the Dark Lord mentioned by Tom Bombadil is Melkor. Tom is mentioning ancient events. Also, nowhere does Tolkien indicate that Sauron coming from outside caused any special notice.

Of course one could make up a story that Sauron came to Arda before Melkor and first made the darkness fearful.


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