# Ungoliant: The First of the Free Agents



## Harad (Feb 5, 2002)

> There, beneath the sheer walls of the mountains and the cold dark sea, the shadows were
> deepest and thickest in the world; and there in Avathar, secret and unknown, Ungoliant had made her abode. The Eldar knew not whence she came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwë, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service. But she had disowned her Master, desiring to be mistress of her own lust, taking all things to herself to feed her emptiness; and she fled to the
> south, escaping the assaults of the Valar and the hunters of Oromë, for their vigilance had ever been to the north, and the south was long unheeded.



What was she? Maia, Valar, or something from beyond?


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## Elbereth (Feb 5, 2002)

Ungoliant was one of Tolkein's strange unexplained mysteries.

My theory is that Ungoliant happened as a result of Melkor's nasty corrupt music before the creation of the Arda...All of his rebelion and vengence manifested into a being...Ungoliant the spider. And therefore, her rebelion against Melkor, her creator, was inevitable. She is the living embodiment of Melkor's spirit, which could not be contained or controlled.


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## Harad (Feb 5, 2002)

Perhaps.

Its not clear that he created her, only corrupted her. Also she "descended from the darkness that lies about Arda" doesnt say whether she was in the darkness before Arda or not.

I prefer the idea that she was a free agent puttering around in the darkness. Melkor nosed around and found her and corrupted her--probably not a hard sell.


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## Merry (Feb 5, 2002)

I do not think that other spirits just appeared without being created, Eru had a clear theme that was sang, there would have been some history of her creation. I agree with Elbereth, Ungoliant was just one of those mysteries in Tolkeins works, just like good old Tom!!


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## Lord Melkor (Feb 5, 2002)

I believe she is a very powerful Maia.


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## Merry (Feb 5, 2002)

Lord Melkor (great name by the way), how do you come to that conclusion?


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## Harad (Feb 5, 2002)

> I do not think that other spirits just appeared without being created, Eru had a clear theme that was sang, there would have been some history of her creation. I agree with Elbereth, Ungoliant was just one of those mysteries



On the one hand a "clear theme" and on the other hand "mysterious." Nothing like having it both ways. I like that.


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## Merry (Feb 5, 2002)

Since I cannot explain the appearance of Ungoliant, and it is not clearly stated in the Sil, I can play the mysterious card in amongst the clear vision of Eru.


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## Tyaronumen (Feb 5, 2002)

Well, Lord Melkor's explanation that Ungoliant was a powerful Maia certainly makes more sense than any of the others offered thus far... Especially considering the source.


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## Harad (Feb 5, 2002)

For the other powerful Maia--e.g. Balrogs or Sauron--we are told what they are. Not for Ungoliant. 

Remember also that Shelob was a spawn (love that word!) of Ungoliant. What does does that make Shelob?


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## Lord Melkor (Feb 5, 2002)

Well we can divide all beings into four categories:

- Ainuri, primordial spirits

- Animals

- Children of Iluvatar

- Beasts of mine

First one makes most sense, I also believe that first eagles, dragons, werewolwes, wampires etc. were Maiar or had Maiar spirits inside them. It explains why 3rd era spiders, eagles, dragons etc were much weaker than their ancestors.


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## Harad (Feb 5, 2002)

Thats a nice categorization but I dont know what category 1 represents: Maia, Vala, ? And I dont know that Melkor created anything, only twisted existing things.


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## Eonwe (Feb 5, 2002)

Well its like how I can't accept definitively that Bombadil is anything other than an Ainur (spirit from outside, powerful, either a Maia or Vala). So I would take the strong Maia theory. I always feel like it is a cop-out to just say nature-spirit or "part of the earth" or "essence of darkness". That's easy. If I was going to say that, I would say she embodies the everlasting darkness. But I don't. Is there a part of the book where JRRT talks about powerful spirits other than the Ainur? Only the TT White Rider, that I know of ("Sauron knows them not, they are older than he").

But she must be pretty powerful to make Melkor scream!


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## Grond (Feb 5, 2002)

We've had this argument before on another thread. My opinion is that they are beast of Middle-earth distorted by Melkor. Dragons are some poor lizard fed Melkor's evil elixirs and turned over the millenia into Dragons. Wolves into werewolves. You have Glaurung who sired Ancalagon. You have Drauglin who sired Carcharoth. You have Ungoliant who sired Shelob. I will not comment on the way this would happen if Maia were involved. JRRT never mentioned any affiliation of Dragons, Werewolves or Ungoliant as being Maia. It seems logical to me that he would have it they had been. He spent enough space describing Balrogs. 

Well, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.


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## Harad (Feb 6, 2002)

I agree that there is no evidence of Ungoliant being a Maia. On the third hand there is no evidence of her being a beast of ME, either.


> she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda



This sounds to me like she was an...eerie music plays...

Outsider. An Alien. From another Dee-mension.


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## elenya (Feb 15, 2002)

Jrad, that's the best theory I've heard but...if Iluvatar made all that was then what did he creat that Ungoliant came from? If we do conced that she's an alien then we also conced that there are other great forces before Iluvatar that created other things.


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## Harad (Feb 15, 2002)

But of Course.
Before the Music there was Dinner and after the Music there was Dancing. (Jrad?)


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## dgoof911 (Feb 16, 2002)

> she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda



If she was a spirit of Drakness in Arda, could is be possible, since Melkor created the evil drakness, that she was Maia with no form. Thus meaing her physical form was desroyed in the first wars with the Vala and Melkor and his servants? So then Melkor gave her from again as a Giant Spider.

Does this seem like some reasonable proof that she was a Maia?


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## Harad (Feb 16, 2002)

> Then the pursuit was begun. and the earth shook beneath the host of Orome, and the fire that was stricken from the hooves of Nahar was the first light that returned to Valinor. But so soon as any came up with the Cloud of Ungoliant the riders of the Valar were blinded and dismayed, and they were scattered, and went they knew not whither; and the sound of the Valorama faltered and failed. And Tulkas was as one caught in a black net at night, and he stood powerless and beat the air in vain.



She would have to be one tough Maia to make Tulkas "powerless."


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## Gnashar_the_orc (Feb 16, 2002)

*Ungoliant is a Maia*

From my reference 'The illustrated guide to Tolkien' (which is quite a serious piece of work and I would highly recommend it to anyone), I have found that Ungoliant was in fact a Maia. Ungoliant started to breed with ordinary spiders which resulted into Shelob and her spawn in Mordor and Mirkwood. 

P.S. What's great about this book is that it actually has maps showing the evolution of Arda, so you can actually were everything is geographically. The part of Middle-earth shown in the index of 'The Lord of the Rings' is actually quite small! I wonder what other monsters could exist at that time that are not mentioned!


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## Harad (Feb 16, 2002)

> 'The illustrated guide to Tolkien'



might have good maps and other materials but its not the last word in interpretation of JRRT, absent evidence in JRRT backing it up.


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## elenya (Feb 16, 2002)

Gnashar's got a point though. That does make more sens than aliens. But aren't maias just spirits? Can spirits really...uh...mate?


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## Harad (Feb 17, 2002)

Sure. Gandalf had three kids: Gandalf Jr., Gandalfina, and Gandelabra the Weird. 

But seriously if I write a book and say that Ungoliant was an Alien from LV-426, does that make it more believable.


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## Eonwe (Feb 17, 2002)

no! Bill and Hillary Clinton are from LV-426. I heard it on Art Bell. Ungoliant is from BR549


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## elenya (Feb 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Eonwe _
> *no! Bill and Hillary Clinton are from LV-426. I heard it on Art Bell. Ungoliant is from BR549  *



I knew there had to be a reasonable explanation!


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## DGoeij (Feb 17, 2002)

Going from memory here, but wasn't their some serious turmoil when Melkor started his own music after a while and then it had to be subdued by Illuvatar himself? Melkor was his most powerfull offspring, so I guess that the collision between the two themes must have caused some side-effects? At least it would explain Ungoliaths powers, constraining the mighty Tulkas and all.

And if not, there's always Forty-Two.


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## elenya (Feb 17, 2002)

That was one of the first theories posted I think but Iluvatar tried to kill the dwarves when they were created so why would he be any different with Ungoliant?

Crazy though: Maybe he didn't -know- about Un goliant and that's why he never killed her!


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## DGoeij (Feb 17, 2002)

From the dwarves we at least know for certain that Manwe (EDIT: It is Aule who created them, stupid! Thanks Telchar) created them and that Iluvatar spared them in the end. Only thing we know of Ungoliath is that she/he/it came from darkness.
So the passerby-alien theory is not a bad thought if you look at it.

I do not feel much for the 'Illustrated guide to Tolkien'. Its a nice peice of work, I've seen it once in a library, but any person with a little knowledge of the works of professor Tolkien can have its own thoughts about Ungoliath. IMHO there isn't much of professor Tolkiens own writing that seriously suggest that Ungoliath was a Maia.


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## elenya (Feb 17, 2002)

I thought I saw that Illustraded Guide and I never saw any pictures of Ungoliant -or- Shelob! But that doesn't make any sens her being a Maia. I just can't get how she'd get a physical form. an any Maia take physical form? And did someone say Gandalf was a Maia? Cause that just doesn't seem right.


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## Telchar (Feb 17, 2002)

It was Aule the Smith who created the Dwarves. 
As for Ungoliant,


> _Originally posted by dgoof911_
> she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda


The "darkness that lies about Arda" is the Void where all the Ainur came from. That may mean that she in the beginning came with the other Ainur. So Ungoliant may have been a maia, like Sauron, who were corrupted by Melkor.


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## Telchar (Feb 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by elenya _
> *I just can't get how she'd get a physical form. an any Maia take physical form? And did someone say Gandalf was a Maia? Cause that just doesn't seem right. *



A Maia, belonging to the race of the Ainur, can take on any shape they want to. Yes, Gandalf was a Maia, he's original name was Olorin.
Saruman, Radagast and Sauron were Maiar too.

A Maia is more powerful than an Elf, and when they want to walk among the Children of Iluvatar they may walk unseen or they can take a shape, like an Elf or a Human, just like we wear cloths in a way.


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## Beleg Strongbow (Feb 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Telchar _
> *
> 
> A Maia, belonging to the race of the Ainur, can take on any shape they want to. Yes, Gandalf was a Maia, he's original name was Olorin.
> ...





Yes that is right i beleive she was a maia and there is know way she could be a vala.


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## Eonwe (Feb 17, 2002)

The Ungoliant as a Maia idea was questioned, I think rightly by Grond and Harad, because we can't find a specific reference in the book that says she is a Maia, or that she is one of the Ainur.


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## elenya (Feb 18, 2002)

One of the Ainur is just too far fetched. I suppose her being a Maia makes more sens now. But I still doubt it. Maybe Iluvatar inadvertantly made it when he made Arda(I think it was Arda...) because of Melkor's theme. Still...you gotta love the alien theory!


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## Grond (Feb 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by elenya _
> *One of the Ainur is just too far fetched. I suppose her being a Maia makes more sens now. But I still doubt it. Maybe Iluvatar inadvertantly made it when he made Arda(I think it was Arda...) because of Melkor's theme. Still...you gotta love the alien theory! *


Your post confuses me elenya. The Ainur were both the Vala and the Maia. They sprung from the mind of Eru and were the governing hierchy of Middle-earth. Ungoliant being a Maia makes no sense because the author never mentions it. Ungoliant was one of the unexplained creatures to which Gandalf refers when speaking to Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas about the Balrog. I don't have my book with me but the quote goes something like, "in the deepest caverns under Khazad-dum, deeper than the Dwarves ever delved, lay nameless evil creatures. Sauron knows them not for they are older than he." That's from memory and not quite right but you can get what is being said. There were things in the music that were totally unexpected. One must remember that the final Movement of the Music was sung by Eru alone. From it sprung Elves and Men and Ents and those things which would have sentient thought save the Dwarves which were made by Aule and given sentient thought by Eru. 

One can only speculate that Eru made some of these things for the purpose of testing his own Vala and Maia. It is clear that Ungoliant came from the darkness that lies about Arda. That doesn't mean she was an Ainur from the thought of Eru. I feel certain that were she a Maia, the author would have informed us. In my opinion she is something else, much like Tom Bombadil.


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## Eonwe (Feb 18, 2002)

yeah I never thought of that before. Tom Bombadil is Ungoliant! kwl


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## elenya (Feb 18, 2002)

Grond, don't worry. I confuse myself too. Everything that I usually post makes more sense in my mind then I try to type it and it sounds very...incoherent. 

Ok I admit the Maia stuff does make sens.


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## Harad (Feb 19, 2002)

> she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda



I am now going way out there, extending my alien theory to say that Ungoliant was FORMED from the darkness and then descended from it. Its a physical reality that JRRT might have been aware of that something can come from nothing. The darkness is a vacuum and Ungoliant spontaneously erupts. This is why she is so good at creating darkness her own self. Her darkness was so profound that even Tulkas was helpless therein. From darkness and into darkness: Ungoliant.


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## Eonwe (Feb 19, 2002)

Ungoliant = quantum instability kwl


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## Merry (Feb 20, 2002)

Maia/Vala, Maia/Vala, Maia/Vala.......

This is so reminiscent of previous threads on Tom B, if JRRT has not specified what she is and where she comes from, it is pointless trying to create a history or classify her under a certain race. She has powers that could be likened to Maia or Vala but the simple fact is that she isn't listed as being either. I still believe that she is just a terrible spirit that arose from the dark and that she should remain a mysterious evil character.

I would even support Harad on his nutty theory of her being an alien because at least this way she remains no part of the known Middle-Earth.


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## Eonwe (Feb 20, 2002)

but she is part of ME, and therefore, it isn't pointless to try to fit her in? If you and others can simply say, "earth spirit", or "pimple from darkness" or "animated kingsford charcoal" isn't that even more pointless than trying to define her in what classes of beings on ME that are known?

Put it this way, Harad's alien theory has as much evidence to back it up as saying she is a spirit of darkness.


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## Harad (Feb 20, 2002)

It may be nutty, but its mine.

And so is Ungoliant. She kicks Valar butt, scarfs down some great and important Things (Melkor feeds her with both hands--Picture that!--be careful, Melkor, you might lose more than a finger), and crawls off into the Sunset (oops no Sun), trailing clouds of Evil. Then for good measure she breeds with her offspring to provide such sources of entertainment as Shelob and Loblolly-attercop. 

She shirley deserves her own category.

But Ungoliant vs. Tom Bombadil? Would Tom Bombadil twirl Ungoliant around his finger and laugh?


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## Beleg Strongbow (Feb 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Harad _
> *It may be nutty, but its mine.
> 
> And so is Ungoliant. She kicks Valar butt, scarfs down some great and important Things (Melkor feeds her with both hands--Picture that!--be careful, Melkor, you might lose more than a finger), and crawls off into the Sunset (oops no Sun), trailing clouds of Evil. Then for good measure she breeds with her offspring to provide such sources of entertainment as Shelob and Loblolly-attercop.
> ...





Bom Badil would kick butt. But you are right who knows what she is? Let her be one of her own.


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## Harad (Feb 21, 2002)

> Bom Badil would kick butt.



No. She was a bit out of his league. She was from outside of the Earth. He would have no power over her. She on the other hand might be able to cover the whole Earth in darkness.


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## elenya (Feb 21, 2002)

If Ungoliant is in a ...race, I guess, of her own than what would you call it?

Spideracus Evilacus?
Bottomless-Pit-for-Eating-Things-and-Turning-Them-to-Darkness?
Ugmo?


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## Harad (Feb 21, 2002)

I'd call her...

Bubble-vicious


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## Eonwe (Feb 21, 2002)

thats Bubble's from the Powerpuff girls (giggle)


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## elenya (Feb 22, 2002)

So Ungoliany=power puff girl.

I like it! Down with the power puffs!


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## Beleg Strongbow (Feb 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by elenya _
> *So Ungoliany=power puff girl.
> 
> I like it! Down with the power puffs! *




The power puffs??


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## elenya (Feb 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Beleg Strongbow _
> *The power puffs??    *



Every one knows the power puff girls! They have huge heads and tiny bodies...there's three of them...thoes annoying animated girls?? You have to know who they are! Everyone does!


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## Harad (Feb 22, 2002)

I agree with Beleg. Hunh?


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## baraka (Mar 3, 2002)

*Ainur*

I have in my "The Complete Guide to ME" the following definition of Ainur:



> Angelic spirits, offspring of the thought of Iluvatar. Most of the Ainur dwell with Iluvatar, but some, the Valar and Maiar, have come to Ea to fulfill the Ainulindale. Others, including Ungoliant and the Balrogs, came to Ea to hinder the Ainulindale and conquer or destroy the Light; of these, some, notably Melkor and Sauron, have been cast out into the Void.


I don´t know if the author had specific references in the case of Ungoliant, but i thought it would be interesting to post.


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## Harad (Mar 12, 2002)

That "Guide" sounds unreliable to me. Tolkien in Letter #144 says:



> The giant spiders were themselves only the offspring of Ungoliante the primeval devourer of light, that in spider-form assisted the Dark Power, but ultimately quarrelled with him.



This supports the view of Ungoliant as an "other," not part of the normal orders.


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## Bill the Pony (Mar 12, 2002)

Christopher Tolkien gives this interpretation in BOLT1


> In the tale her origin is unknown, and though this
> element may be said to have remained in The Silmarillion
> ('The Eldar know not whence she came', ibid.), by the de-
> vice of 'Some have said...' a clear explanation is in fact
> ...



She's not an ainur in those passages. But what is she? Personification of darkness? I agree with Eonwe that that sounds like 'an easy way out'. If that's the case, then can we make Tom Bombadil the embodiment of good/light?

btw. the reference to p. 167 is to:


> Therefore he seeks until he finds a dark cavern in the hills,
> and webs of darkness lie about so that the black air might be
> felt heavy and choking about one's face and hands. Very deep
> and winding were those ways having a subterranean outlet
> ...



Which confirms Harad's 'theory' that she was bred from darkness. Can you explain with Harad logic how you breed a spider from darkness?


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## Harad (Mar 12, 2002)

Easier than easy. The "eightfold way" or the fundamental quark group, arises from the quantum vacuum==blackness. 

Take two ponies. Count the legs.


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## Bill the Pony (Mar 12, 2002)

> Easier than easy. The "eightfold way" or the fundamental quark group, arises from the quantum vacuum==blackness.


Gell-Mann's figures are all nice and symmetrical, nothing to do with a spider. Why would only spider-forms arise from the quantum vacuum? If what you say is true, even the flame imperishable would be generated from blackness, and thus everything created from it, be evil. Nah.

hopes it's not too obvious he hasn't got a clue what he's talking about


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## Harad (Mar 12, 2002)

Ponies should stick to stables, not quantum instabilities. Everything arises from the vacuum. Skittish? Don't fear the sweeper.


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## Bill the Pony (Mar 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Harad _
> *Everything arises from the vacuum. *





> _originally posted by Harad_
> *The darkness is a vacuum and Ungoliant spontaneously erupts. This is why she is so good at creating darkness her own self*


If everything is bred from vacuum, then you say everybody should be good at creating darkness on his/her own. Why is only Ungoliant so good at it?


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## Harad (Mar 12, 2002)

> then you say everybody should be good at creating darkness



Confucius said "Pony trotting with horses can not win race," but I did not say the above.

A particle pair can arise from a vacuum fluctuation, its true. But it can be a proton-anti-proton pair or an electron-anti-electron pair. They have VERY different properties.

In the case of the Ungoliant-anti-Ungoliant pair, Ungoliant had the mastery of darkness. Other things arising from the vacuum have their spatial properties.

You might wonder about Anti-Ungoliant. I believe that He had mastery over light, and inhabited another realm.


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## Bill the Pony (Mar 12, 2002)

This should not be worth discussing, since it was a joke in the first place. I'm sure someone will jump in and bring this thread back on topic. Until then, can you clear up something that seems to be a language problem?



> but I did not say the above.


-----
The darkness is a vacuum and Ungoliant spontaneously erupts. This is why she is so good at creating darkness her own self
-----
 Must be a language problem. If the fact that she spontaneously erupted from vacuum is a reason for her being good at creating darkness, then being good at creating darkness must be a property resulting from the spontaneous eruption. And then everything that spontaneously erupts must have that property.
If spontaneously erupting from darkness gives random properties, then this can not be an explanation for her being good at creating darkness.

Or did you mean something like: Ungoliant spontaneously erupted out of darkness and was made of anti-matter, which is why she is so good at creating darkness. All other beings on earth are made from matter, which makes them not good at creating darkness.
However, _that's_ something you did not say.


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## Harad (Mar 12, 2002)

Please don't feel obligated to discuss things that are not worth discussing. I have specifically created the "Would Gollum Beat Ghan Buri Ghan in a Spelling Bee?" thread for people (and ponys) in that situation.

Each particle-anti-particle pair that erupts from the vacuum maintains its own peculiar properties of mass, spin, etc. In Ungoliant's case her intrinsic properties include the ability to create more of the same darkness. She can be likened to an atom of U-238 which unlike an atom of Carbon, for example, can, when packed at sufficient density, result in a chain reaction and subsequent explosion. In U-ngoliants case the chain reaction is darkness and the explosion is Evil.


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## Ancalagon (Mar 12, 2002)

One thing everyone agrees on is that Ungoliant does not have a satisfactory history that quenches ones thirst for knowledge. 

I can only speculate on my own opinion of Ungoliant and her origin, so don't knock it till you read it!

I am a firm beleiver that she was a Maiar, though counted great among the Ainur in origin. Though it easy to offer this opinion, I suppose I need to back it up. I am an advocate of the truth in myth and knowledge handed down by generations.



> The Eldar knew not whence she came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwe, and that in the beginning she was one of those (maia) that he corrupted to his service.



Ordinarily, if this was passed through generation to generation by Mankind, it would most likely lose much of it's potency over the generations and ages. However, as we are dealing with the Eldar, we can put much more stock in the source. Certainly this in itself is insufficent, though I feel is the key to understanding the logic behind the beleif by the Eldar.

It was known that those who had joined Melkor, had either been corrupted, or at the least simply given allegiance to him. Remember, when we consider the Ainur, it was the Eldar who divided them into Valar or Maiar. The Valar we know as being the mightiest of the Ainur, though many Ainur, were still counted great among the Maiar; Eonwe, Osse, Melian, Tilion, Sauron, Gothmog, Olorin to name but a few. Others who may fall into this category, though unclear, could be Thuringwethil, Ungoliant, Draugluin, Goldberry and Bombadil. 

Why then can we assume that they would fall into this category? I beleive that of those who took shape in Middle-Earth had assumed a form similar to that of their nature. 

The words of Iluvatar to the Ainur in Ainulindale capture my reasoning;


> And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the world, and the World shall Be; and those of you that will may go into it...............





> ........thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Iluvatar............but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took their leave of Iluvatar and descended into it.



Although the Maiar were lesser in power to the Valar, they still had the ability to clad themselves in worldly raiment, to take form visible or invisible in the eyes of the Eldar. Many of the Maiar never left the confines of The Timeless Halls, though many did, and when they did they left their spirit form behind. Whereas some such as Balrogs were dreadful, twisted forms, evil to behold and clad in wrath and malice. So too I fear was Ungoliant; she was dressed in lust and greed. When she is first discussed in the passage quoted by Harad, there is no definition of form, simply that she was. Only after her pursuit from Orome and her fleeing South. Long she lay unheeded, slowly venturing towards the light of the Undying Lands....



> for she hungered for light and hated it





> In a ravine she lived, and took shape as a spider of monstrous form, weaving her black webs in the clefts of the mountains



This was a development of her form, one she must have changed and eventually created for herself, but unlikely the form she originally held, for her lust, insatiable hunger and evil wove her form into what we accept as a huge spider. Only a Maiar could have had this ability, to create a form for itself. Yet it is known that she was powerful, even enough to almost destroy Melkor himself save the intervention of his Balrogs, which in my opinion makes her a Maiar, once counted great among the Ainur.

Well, that's my reasoning and I am throwing it open for debate.


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## Thorin (Mar 12, 2002)

Good points, Anc.

Just because the Eldar didn't know where she came, doesn't make her a mystery. I'm sure many of the elves didn't really know who Gandalf was (Olorin) when he first came until he revealed it to them....And I think the hidden aspect of folklore would make a difference.


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## Eonwe (Mar 12, 2002)

Mr. Ancalagon

you are coming from the same place as me, when I tried to fit Bombadil into an Ainur category, specifically a Maia. I went to great lengths to do this, only to have someone quote from the author that he didn't fit into the scheme of ME regarding the Ainur.

So at least there is some evidence that with at least Bombadil, Tolkien did not mean for him to be a great Maia (I thought of Yavanna).

If there is no quote from Tolkien similar to Bombadil for Ungoliant, then I think that an obvious starting point would be to do exactly as you have done, to say if she changes form, she must be one of the Ainur, and since the Valar are named and numbered, she must be a Maia.


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## Harad (Mar 12, 2002)

I take the quote about Ungoliant and the ABSENCE of mention about her Maianic orgins to be an indicator of the abense of her Maianic origin, rather the presence of her Maianic origin. 

Using Tom Bombadil as an example is rather unfortunate if you want to quote JRRT since he places TB outside of the standard categories.



> _ from letter 144_
> And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally).





> _ letter 153_
> I do not mean him to be an allegory - or I should not have given him so particular, individual, and ridiculous a name - but 'allegory' is the only mode of exhibiting certain functions: he is then an 'allegory', or an exemplar, a particular embodying of pure (real) natural science: the spirit that desires knowledge of other things, their history and nature, because they are 'other' and wholly independent of the enquiring mind, a spirit coeval with the rational mind, and entirely unconcerned with 'doing' anything with the knowledge: Zoology and Botany not Cattle-breeding or Agriculture .



And as before:



> _ from letter 144_
> Ungoliante the primeval devourer of light



hardly sounds like a Maia.

I do now see a connection between the two. They both are "other."


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## Ancalagon (Mar 13, 2002)

To be honest, I think Tolkien had already labelled Bombadil and Ungoliant as Ainur when he first wrote of them, though at the time did not offer explanation about their origins for the sake of mystery. However, as time progressed and more people like you and I wanted to know in greater depth every breath, movement, place of birth, size, angle etc etc, he chose to simply allow them to remain a mystery for the sake of preservation. 

By naming them as 'the other', which in Olde English is a term given to describe races other than Anglo-Saxon, he has simply ensured some modicum of enigmatical obscurity. Tolkien was a master of leaving questions unanswered, even if there appeared an obvious answer. His design was to keep us, the reader, always guessing. This is the case with Bombadil, Ungoliant and others.

Read beteen the lines of his letters and you will find he wishes to remain as illusive as he did when writing the characters themselves. We may never know of their true origin, then again it may be so obvious that Tolkien enjoys watching our bewilderment as we bicker and squabble over his deliberate perplexities.


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