# Legolas, Married with kids?



## eluchil94 (Dec 16, 2020)

Hi everyone.

For a long time I've been pondering the fact that Legolas might have children. I know the common opinion online is that he does no have kids, but hear me out.

In Book 3 (TT), ch.5 "The White Rider", Legolas says about Fangorn "It is old, very old, said the Elf. So old that almost I feel young again, as I have not felt since I journeyed with your children." (Tolkien, J.R.R. 1994. The Lord of the Rings (Single Volume), HarperCollinsPublishers. p.480). The qoute itself might not be new to anyone, but the Swedish translation (with which I first encountered LotR) goes as follows: "Den är gammal, sa alven. Mycket gammal. Så gammal att jag nästan känner mig som ung igen, och det har jag inte gjort sedan jag va ute på färd med *mina barn*" (Not sure what version). The words in bold are where we can find either a miss-translation or that the translator actually wrote what Tolkien himself actually meant. "Mina barn" means "my children" which would mean that Legolas does infact have kids, plural. The original text's use of _your _seems to me quite strange since there is no semantic referent to it - meaning, who is "you"? It cannot mean Aragorn since he is only later given an heir by Arwen, and whilst it could point to Gimli having children (since Legolas is speaking to him) it seems unlikely. Looking at Gimli, one can see that in the Line of Durin family tree, it is displayed that Gimli does not have any children and furthermore, Gimli and Legolas were not on good terms at the start of the fellowship or before - so why would Legolas have journeyed with Gimli's children? Therefore, the only possible referent to "children" would be his own - making the pronoun "your" a typo. 

If you wish to comment, please do so. I have been wondering if this was a "mandela effect" type of situation since I haven't read the Swedish translation for many years and could not find proof of Legolas being a parent in the English version. But I believe this to be reasonable and it would also add a dimension to the character and his actions - especially his decision to go West.

Sincerely, Anton


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## Erestor Arcamen (Dec 16, 2020)

eluchil94 said:


> Hi everyone.
> 
> For a long time I've been pondering the fact that Legolas might have children. I know the common opinion online is that he does no have kids, but hear me out.
> 
> ...



Welcome to TTF! The actual quote is:


> 'It is old, very old,' said the Elf. 'So old that almost I feel young again, as I have not felt since I journeyed with *you children*. It is old and full of memory. I could have been happy here, if I had come in days of peace.'


I think Legolas is referring to Gimli and Aragorn as children since Legolas is so much older that they (Gimli and Aragorn) are like children to him.


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## Olorgando (Dec 16, 2020)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> Welcome to TTF! The actual quote is:
> 
> 
> > 'It is old, very old,' said the Elf. 'So old that almost I feel young again, as I have not felt since I journeyed with you children. It is old and full of memory. I could have been happy here, if I had come in days of peace.'
> ...


I have a tattered 1983 reprint paperback of "The Two Towers", which has exactly the wording that EA quoted above, so if your 1994 single-volume actually has "your" instead of "you", eluchil94, this is s serious and surprising misprint.
JRRT never gives Legolas's age anywhere that I am aware of, but a wide-spread assumption conjectures him to be approximately as old as Arwen, the latter born in the year 241 Third Age. There is one bit of trivia that makes me lean towards such an assumption.

The woodland Elves, mainly those from Greenwood, participated in the War of the Last Alliance of Elves and Men against Sauron at the end of the Second Age. Leading them into this war was Oropher, Thranduil's father, who was slain in the war. Now in less warlike times, the matter of an heir ascending to any Elven throne was not a pressing matter, due to their longevity. So for Oropher to have a grandson was not high up on the to-do list (of Thranduil).

After Sauron's defeat and disappearance which ended the Second Age, probably many among Elves and Men saw the dangers as being greatly reduced (some men might even have thought them eliminated). The latest dates I would conjecture that Thranduil started thinking of the matters of succession would be either the year 1100 Third Age, when "The Wise ... discover that an evil power has made a stronghold at Dol Guldur.", and the *absolutely latest* in the year 1300 Third Age, when "The Nazgûl reappear. The chief of these comes north to Angmar.". Angmar was much closer to home in northern Mirkwood (as it was now called) than Dol Guldur was, the latter being more of a concern for Lothlórien.

Now I'm not assuming that the danger of the times was the only, or even main, consideration Thranduil had for thinking "maybe having an heir is becoming a good idea". There were plenty of other reasons, pretty much the same ones as for Men (basically meaning us). So I would guess that Legolas was born in the first millennium of the Third Age, making him 2,000 years (plus some undetermined centuries) older than Gimli (140) or Aragorn (88) in the year 3019 Third Age when the three of them entered Fangorn Forest as described in TT, Book Three, chapter V "The White Rider". Children? They were infants compared to his age.


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## Starbrow (Jan 10, 2021)

You raised an interesting point about Thranduil not having any other heirs. Is it ever specifically mentioned in Tolkien's writings that Thranduil had no other children?


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## Elthir (Jan 11, 2021)

Azanathel of Emyn Uial said:


> Êlúriel



E-who-iel?


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## Olorgando (Jan 11, 2021)

Elthir said:


> Azanathel of Emyn Uial said:
> 
> 
> > Êlúriel
> ...


Not in Tyler ...
Not in Foster (both editions) ...
Not in Schneidewind (both editions) ...
Not in the 2002 HoMe Index volume ...
Not in UT (both editions) ...
Not in The Sil (both editions) ...

... am I missing something?

I would think what I'm *not* missing is the smell of fanfic.


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## Alcuin (Jan 11, 2021)

Elthir said:


> Azanathel of Emyn Uial said:
> 
> 
> > Êlúriel
> ...


I just did a Google search on “Êlúriel”, and as best I can determine, this is a fan fiction popular in some quarters. 


Azanathel of Emyn Uial said:


> The facts are this.... In publication, Thranduil married Êlúriel and had Legolas. She was slain visiting her kin in Lorian, by Goblins of the Misty Mountains. So Thranduil is a Sindarin King, bur Êlúriel is a Moriquendi, and their son was Legolas. Êlúriel was slain by Orcs of Gundabad on her way to Imladris, via Lothlorien.
> 
> Hope that helps.
> 
> Elerrian


I’m not trying to be difficult, Azanathel, but I’m not helped. 

In whose publication did was Thranduil wed to Êlúriel? Because it doesn’t look like something published by HarperCollins in the UK or their corresponding publisher Houghton Mifflin Harcourt in the US. And it doesn’t look like it came from New Line Cinema, either, who exercised the movie rights to _The Hobbit_ and _The Lord of the Rings_ that Tolkien sold in 1969 to pay his taxes levied by Her Majesty’s Inland Revenue (now known as Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs). 

I’m also confused by your explanation. Was this Êlúriel “slain visiting her kin in Lorian, by Goblins of the Misty Mountains,” or was she “slain by Orcs of Gundabad on her way to Imladris, via Lothlórien”? Should I interpret this to mean, _after she left Lothlórien, where she was visiting her relatives, she began a journey toward Rivendell, but was slain while in transit by Goblins of the Misty Mountains who came from or were under the control of the Orcs of Gundabad_? 

And who is _Elerrian_? Might I correctly consider “Elerrian” an alternative handle for you? (Your handles or nicknames or board names or monikers are your own business, and so long as they are not offensive, I suppose they must remain your own business.)

───◊───


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## Elthir (Jan 11, 2021)

Plus that's kind of a slow moving name . . . with all that vowel length


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## Olorgando (Jan 14, 2021)

Azanathel of Emyn Uial said:


> My goodness, are you a stickler 24/7? lol.


Actually, the correct term is nitpicker. Ask any of the regulars here, most of whom have probably been victimized ... and I'm retired, with _l o t s_ of time on my hands. 😁



Azanathel of Emyn Uial said:


> Here in New England you're a Stickler. Nitpicker is reserved for those who dwell in Scranton Pennsylvania. lol.


All of New England? I went to college in New Hampshire 1973-75, after having lived in New York (Queens, then north shore of Long Island - don't remember if we could see Connecticut from there) from 1966-73. All I remember is the pronunciation would be Sticklah or Nitpickah, but not which term was current (and never mind Vermont). And things might have changed since then.



Azanathel of Emyn Uial said:


> From the Northern shores of Long Island you Can see the cities of New Haven and Bridgeport from across the Sound. I was born in 1974 so I cannot attest to your wisdom of years. I don't claim to have your wisdom or knowledge, but I may have wisdom and knowledge that you may have forgotten.


Not from where we lived. Second lump (aka peninsula) east of the border between Queens and Nassau County. About halfway down Hempstead (*not* H*a*mpstead) Bay's west coast, we may have barely been able to see the NY-CT border.
And my on-the-spot experience of the US stopped in 1975, so as of then you had opportunities for knowledge I did not have any longer. Well, very unlikely for 1975 and several years later, probably ...


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## Alcuin (Jan 14, 2021)

I had lived in Salem, Massachusetts half my life when I left, and began posting on TTF while I was there. I heard both “stickler” and “nitpicker” on the North Shore. 

A _stickler_ is one who “sticks” to the rules and insists upon them being followed regardless of the outcome or time involved. A _nitpicker_ is akin to a _faultfinder_, one who searches for any opportunity to criticize, whether warranted or not. Neither word has a good connotation, though one might hope one’s accountant is a _stickler_, while preferring his attorney to be a _nitpicker_.

_Nitpicker_, incidentally, is a compound word. A _nit_ is the egg of a head louse or its larval young, so “nitpicking” is searching for immature head lice after combing out the adults. (Combs are known from prehistoric times: they are necessary tools for removing parasites from hair. Remember this in the morning when you get up and comb or brush your hair, and thank your distant ancestors.)

TTF is full of _sticklers_ and _nitpickers_, often the same individuals. But we are a clean lot.



Olorgando said:


> ... And my on-the-spot experience of the US stopped in 1975, so as of then you had opportunities for knowledge I did not have any longer. Well, very unlikely for 1975 several years later, probably ...


It is an unrecognizable, different country. We lost the Cold War.


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## Olorgando (Jan 14, 2021)

So would a Stickpickler be someone who searches for any opportunity to criticize rules? Jes' brainstormin' ... 🤪



Alcuin said:


> It is an unrecognizable, different country. We lost the Cold War.


Seems more like WW II to me.



Azanathel of Emyn Uial said:


> Sucks to be wrong!! I love a good switching.


No idea what post in this thread you're referring to.
But as to being wrong ... If my being wrong was based on a faulty assumption (perfect logic fails miserably in the "garbage in - garbage out" situation), then having that pointed out to me was practically always something beneficial. My banging my head against sturdy surfaces afterwards had to do with my not realizing the original assumption to be so faulty - quote: "How could I have been *so* stupid?!?!?"


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## GreatQueen (Apr 22, 2021)

Legolas: furious and with children. 

Don't miss the next chapter of this saga.


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## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 5, 2022)

Does someone know, how old Legolas was, when he joined the fellowship? Maybe he was very young, and had no children, because it was to early for him. And did he have any siblings? I dont think, that Thranduil will send his heir to the throne to Imladris, for me that seems to be more an task for a younger prince.


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## Goldilocks Gamgee (Mar 5, 2022)

LadyGaladriel1980 said:


> that Thranduil will send his heir to the throne to Imladris,


That is what happened with Denethor and Boromir, isn't it? I guess Denethor did not want to send his oldest son, but - theoretically - what if Legolas had a younger sibling who was going to be sent but Legolas was against it, and so he went, and so on.


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## Halasían (Mar 5, 2022)

LadyGaladriel1980 said:


> Does someone know, how old Legolas was, when he joined the fellowship? Maybe he was very young, and had no children, because it was to early for him. And did he have any siblings? I dont think, that Thranduil will send his heir to the throne to Imladris, for me that seems to be more an task for a younger prince.


Age of Legolas or of any siblings is not recorded anywhere that I'm aware of. That is in the realm of fanfiction.


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## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 5, 2022)

Halasían said:


> Age of Legolas or of any siblings is not recorded anywhere that I'm aware of. That is in the realm of fanfiction.


Yes, i guess, for Tolkien was that not important, so he never write somthing about a wife of Thranduil(we even dont know the Name of Legolas mother) or about possible siblings.


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## Halasían (Mar 5, 2022)

It doesn't even show up in the HoME books like some added things do.


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## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 6, 2022)

Halasían said:


> It doesn't even show up in the HoME books like some added things do.


I am sure, that Legolas dont have a wife on kids, because Tolkien write, that he goes together with Gimli in to the west, years after the war of the ring. Tolkien write nothing about a wife and children which has come with him. And it seems, that Gimli has also never married and had children, because i dont think, if he had a family in middle earth he would leave them to go to the West.


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