# Questions about elves...please help!



## Enedlammothiel (May 20, 2002)

K, I'm an unlearned LOTR fan, lol. I have a couple of questions concerning elves:

They're immortal, but can they be mortally wounded? Can they feel pain? When they say their immortal do they mean just that they don't age? If so, at what age do they stop aging? How do they give up their "immortality"? Do elves reproduce like humans do?


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## Elfarmari (May 20, 2002)

If you want to know more about elves, I would suggest you read the silmarillion. 
They're immortal, but can they be mortally wounded?
Yes, but not nearly as easily as Men.
Can they feel pain? 
As far as I know, yes.
When they say their immortal do they mean just that they don't age?
They are not subject to aging or sickness.
If so, at what age do they stop aging?
This isn't specified anywhere that I know of, but I hink it's just when they have reached full stature.
How do they give up their "immortality"? 
The only elves who can do this, apparently, are the ones who are 'doomed' to do so. Arwen doesn't 'die' in the sense that we die, but willingly gives up her life in order to remain with Aragorn. 
Do elves reproduce like humans do?
Judging from the 'half-elven' children, I would say yes.


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## legolas_luvaXO (May 21, 2002)

*hmm....*

darn it, i wish i could look as good as legolas does when i'm 2778 years old....  
how can someone that old be so cute and artistic and even better fighter?!!? haha


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## Gandalf_White (May 22, 2002)

I was wondering... Can elves get killed? I mean like in a battle.


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## Beorn (May 22, 2002)

Yeah, during the Battle of Gondolin there were ones killed...There were probably some also killed during the sacking of Lothlorien in the War of the Ring....


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## Anarchist (May 23, 2002)

I think their aging stops when they are at the top of their body strength and beaty (that would be about 25-30 years old but perhaps they aged differently than men). They could be killed in batttle, this is obvious.


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## Rangerdave (May 23, 2002)

Just a thought on Elf aging. I have come to the conclussion that for Elves, age is more a state of mind than of nature. Or to put it another way, they age until they decide they they have reached their optimal physical maturity and then stop. This may explain why an extremely old Elf like Galadriel is still young and beautiful, whereas an 'ancient' Elf like Cirdan is still hearty hale and vigorous, looks to be old. In short, Elves are as old as they feel.

RD
I could be wrong, I often am.


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## Lantarion (May 23, 2002)

Excellent theory! I haven't thought about it like that, but I must agree with you.
Elves: they can be "killed", ie. murdered; they (physically) age until they don't want to anymore; they live infinately, until they are slain or the World ends. That sums it up, I think.


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## e.Blackstar (May 31, 2002)

*immortality*

to become "mortal",an elf doesnt perform a spell or anything.he/she just stays behind in ME when the last ship has gone to the Undying Lands


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## Lantarion (Jun 1, 2002)

Hmm, maybe, but I don't see how they would become mortal. They would renounce their ties to the Undying Lands by refusing the summons, but I think they would stil remain 'limitedly immortal'.


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## Niniel (Jun 1, 2002)

I don't think they became immortal if they stayed in ME. They could live on forever, unless they died in battle or from grief. For the rest, they were just as immortal as when they could still go to the West.


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## Cian (Jun 3, 2002)

Any Elf refusing the West (or indeed dying and yet refusing the West) still had a different fate than Mortal Men (whose spirits normally left the World-circles).

Ultimately an Elf who remained in Middle-earth long enough was destined to fade in the body (or "fade" in the Elvish _hröa_ to be more precise), and become invisible to Men's eyes. These Elves were yet not considered the same as any Elves who might die and whose spirits (_fëar_ pl.) yet refused the West~


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## Mighty Sam (Jun 4, 2002)

*HI everybody- Dr. Nick*

ok now i also have a question concerning this topic. i know this has been covered somewhere else, but i forgot (sue me): if elves r imortal and produce as steadily as men y isn't the world (Arda) teeming with elves???? just a quesion that's been bothering me. thanx as always


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## ME!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Jun 4, 2002)

Elves can be killed in battle or they can die from a broken heart


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## Lantarion (Jun 4, 2002)

Actually, they can't die of a broken heart. I know it's common knowledge that 'proper' or 'original' Elves can die of a broken heart, but I don't think anybody does in the LotR, or Sil or anything else.


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## LadyGaladriel (Jun 4, 2002)

K , you may think im stupid but you know when Aragorn and Arwen got married, Arwen gave up her immortality blah blah ? Qwell why did they have to get married? couldn't they have lived togather or something?? or was it because Elrond only would let Arwen go if they did?


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## Elu Thingol (Jun 4, 2002)

I found a part of one of Tolkien's letters and was not quite sure what it meant maybe someone could help me out.



> 'The Elves were sufficiently longeval to be called by Man 'immortal'. But they were not unageing or unwearying' (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien No 245, dated 1963).


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## Legolas_lover12 (Jun 9, 2002)

well, i think arwen and aragorn would want to get married. i mean, why wouldn't they have a wedding? i think that there aren't a lot of elves because some of them die. or because they go to the undying lands. or because elves don't have a lot of children...........just a thought. and on that note (children), is there a certain age when an elf stops being able to produce offspring?


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## Elu Thingol (Jun 10, 2002)

Elves probably can have children anytime they want


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## HelplessModAddi (Jun 24, 2002)

Elves are bound to this world and cannot leave it. That is what "immortality" means in Tolkein's world. Even if they're bodies are destroyed, or they waste in weariness or grief, their minds remain. They go to Valinor, to the halls of Mandos, where they are healed, and in time, they return. Men, on the other hand, are doomed to leave this world no matter what. Now, as for Arwen becoming mortal, well, nothing explains that better than the Silmarillion, specifically the chapter about Beren and Luthien.


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## Rangerdave (Jun 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Mighty Sam _
> *ok now i also have a question concerning this topic. i know this has been covered somewhere else, but i forgot (sue me): if elves r imortal and produce as steadily as men y isn't the world (Arda) teeming with elves???? just a quesion that's been bothering me. thanx as always *



I guess that Elves practice safe sex. And you thought lembas was they wraped in those leaves.

Okay that was tasteless,I admit it. But it was just too easy.

RD


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## Elu Thingol (Jun 27, 2002)

Hundreds and thousands of elves die in battles, and didn't Finwe's first wife get sick and die? How do you know that elves produce as quickly as men? There is no way elves can take up all the room.


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## Legolas_lover12 (Jun 28, 2002)

> and didn't finwe's first wife get sick and die?


yes, but not a lot of elves "got sick" and died. at least i don't think a lot of them did......................correct me if i'm wrong.................


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## Lantarion (Jun 28, 2002)

If Men are called _Engwar_, 'the Sickly', wouldn't that implicate the Elves' resistance to sickness? I dunno.. 
But hundreds of thousands of Men have died in battles, and they are much more numerous than Elves, at least in the Third Age. Millions must have sailed over the Sea to Valinor which was removed from the world, but how many Elves can Aman hold? Can somebody elaborate?


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## Phenix (Jun 28, 2002)

well, somewhere in the book it's writen that most of the elf as gone ower the sea... or something like that


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## Cian (Jun 28, 2002)

In the essay _Aman_ Tolkien wrote that: "On earth the Quendi suffered no sickness, and the health of their bodies was supported by the might of the longeval _fëar._"

Compare the published _Silmarillion:_ "For though Eru appointed to you to die not in Eä, and no sickness may assail you, ..."

JRRT explained in _Morgoth's Ring_ that the Eldarin couple normally had few children (Fëanor being renowned as the father of seven sons). The number of Elf-children per household was said to decrease as ages passed.

The Eldar said that a greater share and strength of their being, in mind and body, goes forth than in the making of mortal children. And also the Eldar were not unchanging, and when the exercise of the power of generation was fulfilled the desire began to cease, the mind turning to other things. The Eldar were also said to beget children only in days of happiness and peace if they could.


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## Legolas_lover12 (Jun 29, 2002)

ok. so elves didn't have many children. and most of them went to aman. but, like pontifex said, how many elves can aman hold? i don't know. but i got the immpression (while i was reading the silmarillion) that aman was pretty big. or maybe it expands as more elves come...............hmmmmmmmmmmm............................


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## Tuor (Jul 4, 2002)

I think that the "sicknessess" that the Eldar died from were actually supposed to be poisons from Morgoth-he was a Valar so he could probably find some way around it. And on a side note, if elves never got sick, why did they have a word for "sickly" to call humans in the first place???


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## Legolas_lover12 (Jul 4, 2002)

i'll have to think about that....................................


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## Lord Smaug (Jul 20, 2002)

Hey, if elves are immortal, why do they eat?


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## Lord Smaug (Jul 20, 2002)

If Beren was an Edain, and Luthíen an Eldar, what was Lalaith?


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## Lord Smaug (Jul 20, 2002)

Hey, how do you post a poll in here??


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## Legolas_lover12 (Jul 20, 2002)

who was lalaith????


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## Lord Smaug (Jul 23, 2002)

Lalaith was the daughter of Beren and Luthien. Lalaith means rice.


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## Ithrynluin (Jul 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Lord Smaug _
> *Lalaith was the daughter of Beren and Luthien. Lalaith means rice. *



Lalaith
"Daughter of Húrin and Morwen, and sister to Túrin Turambar; she died in childhood of a plague."
(the Encyclopedia of Arda)

And I think it means laughter,definitely not rice.


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## Lantarion (Jul 25, 2002)

Rice, ROTFL! 
Lord Smaug, you cannot post a poll within a thread, you have to create a new thread and choose the 'Poll'-alternative at the bottom of that page. Just go to a certain forum, press the 'New Thread button, and look for a section that has something to do with polls! 

*Lalaith*(S.: 'laughter') (b. and d. between FA 466 and 472) Adan of the Third House elder daughter of Húrin and Morwen and sister of Túrin. She died of plague when she was three years old.

So there! Read and learn.


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## Cian (Jul 25, 2002)

Or Lalaith -- _adaneth_


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## Ceorl (Jul 27, 2002)

Ok the fate of the Elves and the limits of their immortality:

Elves were and are immortal, they live forever unless slain by wound or grief. They can also starve or die of thirst. The idea that they fade, means merely that their power and wisdom and beauty diminishes, not that they go transparant. Also the idea of their being a 'Last Ship' that sailed into the west is merely poetic license, all elves have the sea longing and eventually fell a call to take the straight road and leave ME forever. The boat in which Elrond and Galadriel and Gandalf leave is NOT the last boat to take the straight road. many years later, Legolas (with Gimli) built his own boat and left ME. I assume that any Elf could do the same, even the Moriquendi.

When it comes to Arwen, her fate can be explained as follows. 

At the end of the First Age the Valar gave to the Half-Elven an irrevocable choice, to be Elven or Human. Elrond chose to remain immortal, whilst Elros took on mortality and became the first king of Numenor. Now upon the children of Elrond a further doom was appointed; that when their father left Middle-Earth, they were either to follow him or else they would lose their immortality. That is why the parting of Elrond and Arwen was so bitter, never again could they meet, not even in the Halls of Mandos, for Arwen would not go there as her fate was that of the Edain. 

This also tells you something about the depth of her love to Aragorn.

and Lord Smaug if you are referring to Dior the son of Beren and Luthien then I can tell you that he was also Half Elven, but he was killed during the second age by the sons of Feanor at the final destruction of Doriath of which he had become King. 

His daughter Elwing married the only other Half-Elven in the First Age, Earendil and the two of them, with the Silmaril that had been wrested grom Morgoth were able to pass the enchantments protecting Aman and persuade the Valar to oust Morgoth from the rule of Middle Earth and come to the aid of the Eldar and Edain. 

Earendil and his wife were then given the same choice as the other Half Elven and opted to be immortal. Earendils ship Vingilot and the Silmaril, (with Earendil steering) was set to sail the night sky and be a symbol of the doom of Morgoth. Elwing had a tower built on the borders of Ekkaia the encircling seas from which she apparently flew to meet her husband at dawn when his ship came again home.

Hope that cleared some things up

oh yes and I dont think that the themes of overpopulation and cheap housing complexes were central to Middle-Earth


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## Elu Thingol (Jul 27, 2002)

Wrong, Elves can also die by ageing



> 'The Elves were sufficiently longeval to be called by Man 'immortal'. But they were not unageing or unwearying' (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien No 245, dated 1963).


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## Ceorl (Jul 28, 2002)

The Elves would only die after +5000 years worth of aging and then their spirits go to Mandos from which they can be reincarnated at the will of the Valar.


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## Elu Thingol (Jul 28, 2002)

Where did you get the 5000 years from? Just wondering.


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## Ceorl (Jul 29, 2002)

It was an estimation but think about it. Cirdan was part of the original march of the Teleri that stayed behind in Beleriand, he was there all through the long ages of the trees, which were longer than those of the sun. Then he was there throughout the First, Second anmd Third ages of the sun. That is a long time. probably closer to 10000 years


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