# Saruman and the horses, was that weird to you too?



## elf boy (Jul 19, 2002)

*Saruman... was that weird to you too?*

I was wondering if anyone else felt the same way i do, or has a better explanation for me about in the LOTR, when Saruman shows up and scares away the horses, it has been a while so i don't remember exactly when this was but i remember that when Gandalf came back someone asked him if it was him that they saw that night and he said it wasn't. It just seems odd to me that they would get that close to Saruman and yet be such an unimportant part in the books. Did i miss something?


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## Galdor (Jul 20, 2002)

It was not Saruman who scared the horses away. Thats just what Aragorn, Gimli and Legoles first thought. What really happed is that they heard or smelled Shadowfax let out a cry of joy and ran to greet him. As for Saruman it says somewhere LOTR (I can't find the quote right now) that he had come out to meet his orcs.


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## imladris (Jul 20, 2002)

but how do you explain how the horses escaped? because the were probably tight to a tree or some sort.


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## Ithrynluin (Jul 20, 2002)

Could it be possible that the person who appeared to Aragorn&co. had no connection to LOTR whatsoever? Someone said in another thread that maybe that "old man" was Maglor,wandering the lands,but remaining secret.What do you think?


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## Gil-Galad (Jul 20, 2002)

ithrynluin,these thoughts about Maglor is very interesting in fact,and you may be right in a way.Let's think.If that was Saruman I think he wouldn't just hide or run.That doesn't seem to me serious.He would probably do something to more,to speak with them and try to understand some more information or to fight with them or to send some orcs later.
ithrynluin,I think you may be right  !


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## Galdor (Jul 20, 2002)

> You said last night, Gimli that they were scared away. But I did not think so. Did you hear them Legolas? Did they sound to you like beast in terror? No, said Legolas.I heard them clearly. But for the darkness and our own fear I should have guessed that they were beast wild with some sudden gladness. They spoke as horses will when they meet a friend that they have long missed.


Book II ch. V




> ...Whether they fled at first in fear, or not, our horses met Shodowfax, their chieftain, and greeted him with joy.


Legolas Book II ch. V


As I said in my last post. I believe there is also a quote in one of the chapters around there that says that Saruman had come out to meet his orcs. Would one of you try and look it up? I'm leaving for a week tomarrow and I don't have the time.


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## Gil-Galad (Jul 20, 2002)

I just said ithrynluin's idea was very interesting.Obviosly that was Saruman but who knows?I liked ithrynluin's idea .


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## Ithrynluin (Jul 20, 2002)

Yeah I guess it is pretty interesting cause we don't hear about Maglor for a veeery long time and suddenly he shows up (supposedly). It is written that the horses were glad and that does make sense with Maglor being an elf and elves being kind to horses and stuff.
I don't know if that was Saruman - it does make the most sense that the person would be Saruman,but like Gil I also think he would try to at least get some info from the company if not do some serious damage.
Galdor,I'm not sure whether there really is anything about Saruman "coming to meet the orcs".At least I don't recall any such thing.


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## Gil-Galad (Jul 20, 2002)

Let's say it in other words.The guys from the fellowship thought it was Saruman,but it was probably Maglor.Although it's written in the book we may consider these words as thoughts if Aragorn,Legolas and Gimli and if it is so we cannot be sure they're right.


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## elf boy (Jul 21, 2002)

What I don't get if it was Saruman is, wasn't Frodo there with the ring at that time? I would think that Saruman would try to take the ring or would send every orc and other creature he had after them right then if he knew their (and the ring's) exact location... (forgive me if i forget when stuff happened i've been reading other Tolkien books fer quite a while and just started on the LOTR again). It just seems odd to me that something like Saruman coming out and running into the fellowship would be so... unexplained.


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## Confusticated (Jul 21, 2002)

elf boy....Frodo wasn't there at the time....Remember after the fellowship splt...Aragorn and friends decided to chase down the Orcs and rescue Merry and Pippin, while Sam and frodo have snuck off to Mordor. Aragorn, gimli, and Legolas eventually make it to fangorn....several days after the fellowship had split up.


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## indexerkevin (Jul 22, 2002)

My apprenticeful 2 cents: 

I think it's pretty obvious it had to be Saruman. Gandalf definitely makes a statement somewhere to the effect that Saruman couldn't wait and went out to meet his orcs. (when I have time later I'll try to find the exact quote)

So he gets there and as Gandalf also pointed out, I believe in the same part of the book, Saruman has not bothered with developing any "woods sense" so he has no clue what has transpired when he finds the remains of the orcs on the edge of Fangorn. Yet he knows there is a good chance his prize was taken by someone else, and he runs into 3 dangerous looking hombres at night. Not only is he outnumbered but he must consider that they may even have the ring. So he gave them no challenge.

could be totally wrong but just my opinion


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## aragil (Jul 23, 2002)

I agree that it was probably Saruman, but in what form? Gandalf implies that Saruman has the ability to project some sort of phantom image across distances. Looking at my trusty Middle-earth map, the eaves of Fangorn are a considerable distance from Nan Curunir. It would take a pretty foolhardy wizard to travel that distance alone (he had killed the heir to the throne of Rohan that week, so he wouldn't exactly be a popular guy in the area), not to mention how fast he would have to be traveling.

Welcom indexerkevin, apprenticeful 2 cents are often-times the best two cents aroundl


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## Gil-Galad (Jul 23, 2002)

I still think that if it was Saruman he woud do something more than jsut to run.He would find his orcs and attack Aragorn and co.,he would try to make lots of prolems or just to have a talk with them and try to understan some more info without sayng who is he .


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## LadyGaladriel (Jul 23, 2002)

Or he could always try to get them on the Dark side with his voice. 


Aragorn and co wouldn't fool for that so he would either kill then or capture them and torure to find things out


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## Gil-Galad (Jul 23, 2002)

That's right Lady Galadriel.This fact makes me ithinking that is possible this unknown person to be Maglor,as ithrynluin said.


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## aragil (Jul 23, 2002)

For it to be Maglor, you have to discount Gandalf's theory that it is a phantom of Saruman (not to be cornfused with Saruman himself). Gandalf being the wisest Maia around, I think I'll agree with him.


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## Ithrynluin (Jul 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by aragil _
> *For it to be Maglor, you have to discount Gandalf's theory that it is a phantom of Saruman (not to be cornfused with Saruman himself). Gandalf being the wisest Maia around, I think I'll agree with him. *



But Gandalf did not encounter this "phantom" and his conclusion is based solely on the account that Aragorn&co. gave him. Therefore his theory is still only a theory.


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## aragil (Jul 23, 2002)

It is a theory from the wisest of the Maia. Anything we discuss here is 'only a theory', but Gandalf's deserves credibility (IMO) because of his familiarity with Saruman.
I think that for the most part, you could say that the courses of the wise were set by theory rather than known fact. Not a single member of the Council of Elrond had thrown the One Ring into Mount Doom prior to the Council. It was only a theory that Sauron would be destroyed in this way, and yet most of the folks at the council were willing to go with this theory because it was put forth by the wise, and they knew a lot about the Ring. Of course, Boromir never seemed to really believe this, but what good theory doesn't have its detractors?
Now, who knew more about Saruman and his ways than Gandalf? Galadriel mistrusted him originally, but Gandalf too was leery of divulging information to the White Wizard. And what is it that Gandalf says to Saruman at Orthanc? Something along the lines of "I understand you all too well, but you understand me not at all." Simply put, Gandalf is THE expert on Saruman's mind and his doings. If Gandalf advances a theory about so-and-so being Saruman, then I'm going to need 100% proof before I consider contradicting this theory.


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## pohuist (Jul 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Gil-Galad _
> *That's right Lady Galadriel.This fact makes me ithinking that is possible this unknown person to be Maglor,as ithrynluin said. *



I will have to concur with Aragil on the basis that it does not seem plausible that Tolkien would include a completely extraneous person to that book not referencing him anywhere else in the book.


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## Ithrynluin (Jul 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by pohuist _
> *
> 
> I will have to concur with Aragil on the basis that it does not seem plausible that Tolkien would include a completely extraneous person to that book not referencing him anywhere else in the book. *



Why wouldn't he include a mysterious person? Tolkien does like to incorporate some mysterious characters into his work - look at Tom Bombadil - he never tells us what he is and mystery is part of the magnificence of Tolkien's work.
BTW that was very well put aragil,your theory certainly has more "weight" than mine,but one thing though - why weren't the horses scared away if it was indeed a phantom of Saruman? I'm not exactly sure what happens in that part of the book so would someone please clarify that for me.
Leaving aside all matters of plausibility,wouldn't it be wonderful if that really was Maglor,straying into Fangorn,a character straight out of the Elder days,making a brief appearance but not wanting to come into contact with anyone until the world is changed? I think the reason I brought Maglor up in the first place was that I _liked_ it better that way,though a phantom of Saruman is probably nearer to the truth.


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## Theoden (Jul 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *Could it be possible that the person who appeared to Aragorn&co. had no connection to LOTR whatsoever? Someone said in another thread that maybe that "old man" was Maglor,wandering the lands,but remaining secret.What do you think? *



wow, That is deep. I like this theory the best. It seems to put a mystical side to that otherwise seamingly out of place scene.


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## pohuist (Jul 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *
> 
> Why wouldn't he include a mysterious person? Tolkien does like to incorporate some mysterious characters into his work - look at Tom Bombadil - he never tells us what he is and mystery is part of the magnificence of Tolkien's work. *



Now, but that's a totally different strory. Tom Bombadil plays a very important part in the story, and several chapters are devoted to it. Although, we don't know his identity and the debate on that topic still stems. Maglor would not only be misterious, but also extraneous -- doesn't add or take away much from the story. You theory is beautiful, but doesn't seem likely to me. W/r/to the horses I think one of the 3 said that at first they sound scared but then joyful. (Sorry, can't quote -- don't have the book here). So, they could be scared at first and them met Shadowfax. Granted, though, it still would have been just the impression of one of the three companions. One more thing, I don't think Saruman would have ventured so far out of Orthanc, must have been his phantom. The reason -- in UT it is discussed in the chapter "the hunt for the ring" that Sauron was aware that Saruman double-crossed him and Saruman knew that Sauron knows. So, I think Saruman would have been afraid to lose Orthanc's protection.


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## elf boy (Jul 24, 2002)

Thanks fer the correction about who was there, I was thinking that there was a hobbit there at the time, but it appears I was wrong. Good thing i'm reading the LOTR again huh?

Oh by the way I was looking up the Maglor thing and I found this...
Here is a quote from the Sil about Maglor:
"And it is told of Maglor that he could not endure the pain with which the Silmaril tormented him; and he cast it at last into the Sea, and thereafter he wandered ever upon the shores, singing in pain and regret beside the waves."

If this was Maglor, how did he get so far inland? After he cast it into the Sea, he stayed by the waves (therefore the Sea)... So I can't see how it could be him, although it was a very interesting opinion.


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## Ceorl (Jul 27, 2002)

Huh! Did I miss something when reading this thread?

How did Maglor get involved in this? This is the Maglor that was last seen around 300 years earlier song on the beach. The torment of the Silmaril was enough to force his brother into jumping down a volcano, and Maedhros had alot more experience in resisting torment having hung from his wrist from the walls of Thangorodrim for who knows how long.

What are the chances of him still being alive and wandering through Fangorn Forest several millenia later. He may be immortal but he still has to eat. 

And in any case your reasons for saying it wasn't Saruman dont stand up at all, Saruman has been in Isengard mainly for the last century or so, he is guarded at all times and became naturally a little shy about doing personal dirtywork. He has also (upon scouting ahead for his party of orcs) come across the funeral pyre of one of his companies which he believed was carrying the Master Ring. He now believes that the Master Ring is now in the possession of the man he is attacking; not a comforting thought. Therefore he goes with all speed back to Isengard to double and treble the assault on Rohan in the hope of regaining the ring before Theoden discovers its power. Why do you think that he emptyied Isengard so soon afterwards? It was the first thing he did after returning from his trip. He certainly didn't have time to try and lure travellers to his support. He did however set free their steeds so as to cripple them and prevent a message being sent that he was away from home.

As you can see the evidence favouring Saruman being the hooded man is overwhelming and the idea of Maglor being there absurd.


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## indexerkevin (Jul 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ceorl _
> *Huh! Did I miss something when reading this thread?
> 
> ......
> ...



I too feel compelled to write strongly about this. Having just reread last night the scene in which the 3 chasers meet back up with Gandalf; Gandalf gives as close as a sure thing description as to it being Saruman as you'll get with many other things that happen in LOTR, and this thread baffles me. 

Like for example it appears as if it was probably Galadriel who summons the Grey Company. Then if you wanted to make a thread like this you could for example argue maybe it was really, like say Arwen who did it. Taking the cop perspective she would certainly have motive and opportunity... But in the same scene I mention above in which A, L, and G meet back up with Gandalf, Gandalf relays a message to Aragorn from Galadriel. The text of this message is almost overwhelming evidence that it was in fact Galadriel. 

Another example: as far as I know, there is no place in the text, tale of Arwen and Aragorn, or any other place where it uses these exact words: Thorongil was really Aragorn. But yet putting together the clues it is like 99.9999999% certain. 

Tolkien was a great writer and often doesn't give you 100% information about a given thing, but I'm one of those who figures that when he makes it 95% clear as to what happens, we should just go with that.... The description by Gandalf of Saruman's coming out to meet the messengers puts it closer to like 98%...


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## Maeglin (Jul 28, 2002)

is it possible that it wasn't Saruman or Maglor? Why couldn't it have been Wormtongue, maybe he was going to meet the orcs. If it was Saruman he would have stayed to fight or to try to get them to join him, at least he wouldn't have ran, and Wormtongue seemed to be afraid of everything. 

Just a thought!


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## Grond (Jul 28, 2002)

> _From The Two Towers, The Riders of Rohan,_
> *'It seems unlikely that I shall have the chance,' said Gimli.
> 'If you wish to know what I think,' he began again after a while 'I
> think it was Saruman. Who else? Remember the words of Jomer: he walks about like an old man hooded and cloaked. Those were the words. He has gone off with our horses, or scared them away, and here we are. There is more trouble coming to us, mark my words!'
> ...





> _From The Two Towers, The White Rider, Gandalf states,_
> *...'You certainly did not see me,' answered Gandalf, 'therefore I must guess that you saw Saruman. Evidently we look so much alike that your desire to make an incurable dent in my hat must be excused.'*





> _From HoMe VII, The Treason of Isengard, The Riders of Rohan,_
> *commentary by Christopher Tolkien, "While this is no more than a guess, I suspect that when my father wrote this he thought that it was Gandalf, and not Saruman, who stood so briefly in the light of the fire...*


It seems that there is no definitive answer given by the author. The character's opinions seem to be agreed that it was either Saruman himself or a shade of Saruman. There is no further information in the LotR or any of the other works that I can find.


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## Maeglin (Jul 28, 2002)

I think your right Grond, we'll probably never know the answer for sure.


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## pohuist (Jul 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Glorfindel1187 _
> *I think your right Grond, we'll probably never know the answer for sure. *



I'll agree with Grond. Definitely wasn't Wormtongue -- he wasn't an old man.


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## Gil-Galad (Aug 3, 2002)

In general I think ithrynluin theory is very interesting and deep and I support it.Maglor may not be part of the history but that doesn't means this person isn't he.At the same time there are too many thinks which don't fit with the theory that is Saruman.
But Grond is right.Nobody can convince others he is right because there aren't much evidences.....and we would argue and argue and argue......


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## Maeglin (Aug 3, 2002)

maglor is dead, it couldn't have been him, wasn't he the elf that was executed by Turin in The Sil?


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## Galdor (Aug 3, 2002)

Maglor was the second son of Feanor. After he threw the last Silmaril into the Sea he was never seen in ME again and his fate is not know for sure.


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## Maeglin (Aug 4, 2002)

oh, thanks for clearing that up for me, what was the name of the elf that was executed for finding Gondolin?


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## Galdor (Aug 4, 2002)

I believe you are talking about Eol father of Maeglin who betrayed Gondolin. And he was not killed for finding Gondolin but for murdering his wife Aredhel who was hit by his spear when he through it at Maeglin.(who at that time was still good.) You might want to go back and read Ch.16 of the Sil.


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## Maeglin (Aug 4, 2002)

I knew he was executed for killing his wife too, but he also was going to be put to death for finding gondolin. But thats beside the point I was just trying to remember what his name was, thanks for refreshing my memory! 

Oh, and it was actually a poisoned spear, it took her a while to die. Poor Aredhel.


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## Grond (Aug 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Glorfindel1187 _
> *I knew he was executed for killing his wife too, but he also was going to be put to death for finding gondolin. But thats beside the point I was just trying to remember what his name was, thanks for refreshing my memory!
> 
> Oh, and it was actually a poisoned spear, it took her a while to die. Poor Aredhel. *


He was given a choice (right before he tried to kill Maeglin)... he could either remain in Gondolin for the rest of his life or die there. Here's the relavent passage from the Sil,


> _from The Silmarillion, Chapter 16, Of Maeglin,_
> Then Turgon sat in his high seat holding his staff of doom, and in a stern voice spoke: 'I will not debate with you, Dark Elf. By the swords of the Noldor alone are your sunless woods defended. Your freedom to wander there wild you owe to my kin; and but for them long since you would have laboured in thraldom in the pits of Angband. And here I am King; and whether you will it or will it not, my doom is law. This choice only is given to you: to abide here, or to die here; and so also for your son.'
> 
> Then Eöl looked into the eyes of King Turgon, and he was not daunted, but stood long without word or movement while a still silence fell upon the hall; and Aredhel was afraid, knowing that he was perilous. Suddenly, swift as a serpent, he seized a javelin that he held hid beneath his cloak and cast it at Maeglin, crying: 'The second choice I take and for my son also! you shall not hold what is mine!'
> ...


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## Gil-Galad (Aug 10, 2002)

In fact Eol did very stupid things,he would live happily in Gondolin withou any problems.


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## Maeglin (Aug 10, 2002)

Too bad he was too dumb to think of that!


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## Gil-Galad (Aug 17, 2002)

Why I'm not surprised from your thoughts Glorfindel1187?


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## Gildor the Elf (Aug 18, 2002)

Is Saruman that mage in the front of TTT? If it's, wasn't Saruman that wizard which appears while Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli were seeking the orcs?


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## FarahSlax (Aug 18, 2002)

Trust in what Tolkien says. The book states it was probably a "phantom of Saruman". In other words, not Saruman himself but a remote viewing image of Saruman (the so-called Wizards Eye).


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## Grond (Aug 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by FarahSlax _
> *Trust in what Tolkien says. The book states it was probably a "phantom of Saruman". In other words, not Saruman himself but a remote viewing image of Saruman (the so-called Wizards Eye). *


Sorry, but Tolkien did not say what you just wrote. Gimli said it and he has been known to be wrong about many such things.


> _from The Two Towers, The White Rider_
> ...'That would not baffle a Ranger,' said Gimli. 'A bent blade is enough
> for Aragorn to read. But I do not expect him to find any traces. It was an evil phantom of Saruman that we saw last night. I am sure of it, even under the light of morning. His eyes are looking out on us from Fangorn even now, maybe.'


and later Gimili asks Gandalf about the encounter in the same chapter,


> 'Wait a minute!' cried Gimli. 'There is another thing that I should like to know first. Was it you, Gandalf, or Saruman that we saw last night?'
> 
> 'You certainly did not see me,' answered Gandalf, *'therefore I must
> guess that you saw Saruman.* Evidently we look so much alike that your desire to make an incurable dent in my hat must be excused.'


Now exactly which part of what the author says do you want us to believe?


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## Gil-Galad (Aug 24, 2002)

Grond,but that's just Gandalf's suggestion.Even he doesn't know who was that person.So the theory about Maglor is still possible.


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## Grond (Aug 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Gil-Galad _
> *Grond,but that's just Gandalf's suggestion.Even he doesn't know who was that person.So the theory about Maglor is still possible. *


I guess I didn't make my point very well. The author did not tell us who the Old Man was. He had the characters give their opinions. It could have been Saruman, it could have been Maglor, it could have been Feanor's ghost, it could have been Radagast lost in the woods, it could have been Denethor looking for Boromir. 

You are correct. It could have been anyone or anything. Gandalf (the wisest of living creatures on Middle-earth) seemed to believe that it was Saruman... but it could have still been Maglor.


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## Gil-Galad (Aug 24, 2002)

Even the wisest can make a mistake.But if it isn't written somewhere exactly who is that person we can't be sure in anything.Nobody,but Tolkien knows, why he write about this person.It may be part of other story,of new things which haven't happened.


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## Gil-Galad (Aug 24, 2002)

Even the wisest can make a mistake.But if it isn't written somewhere exactly who is that person we can't be sure in anything.Nobody,but Tolkien knows, why he write about this person.It may be part of other story,of new things which haven't happened.


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