# Why would Mairon/Sauron join Melkor?  Why didn't he join the Noldor instead?



## BalrogRingDestroyer (Oct 1, 2022)

Mairon/Sauron is about order and stability and all of that. Melkor is clearly nihilistic, basically throwing a cosmic temper tantrum because he can't rule Eru's universe, thus trying to destroy everything. It has to be clear that, even if Melkor had won and somehow not only crushed the Elves, but somehow defeated the Valar and even Eru, that he, Sauron, would eventually have been destroyed too by the nihilistic Melkor. 

I can see Melkor using Sauron for when he wanted someone to beat someone up, but I can't see any real long term use for Sauron that Melkor could have had. It's possible that Sauron was duped into thinking Melkor wanted order, and was just too afraid of him later to defy him and too afraid of the Valar to go back after joining their enemy, but why wouldn't he have taken redemption after Melkor's capture and when the Valar clearly offered it?

You'd think if Sauron were to go evil, it might be in that he joined Feanor and his sons in the quest to return the Simarils and defeat Melkor, only he might have somehow become their leader (though, I suppose, that would have boded a very dark future for Middle Earth if he had, as there would have been two separate forces, one attacking from within to a level Melkor never was able to achieve) that the good members of the Noldor would eventually fight against. In this situation, Sauron would dominate the more greedy and power-hungry Elves, leading them on, and reminding them that he was best suited to help them against Melkor, since the Valar and Eru wouldn't. And he'd justify any attacks that his allied Elves did against the Elves that wouldn't go along with him, stating that those Elves were acting selfishly against the better interests of the Noldor. 

It makes little sense why, if Sauron wanted to restore order and felt that the Valar weren't doing their jobs, why he'd side with Melkor, the guy out to cause as much disorder as possible, rather than, say, the Noldor, the ones who rebelled against the Valar and wanted to stop Melkor and get the stolen Simirals back. 

If Sauron and Melkor were in the 21st Century, Melkor would attempt to "take over" by going to all the nuclear facilities of each major nuclear country and pushing all the big red buttons, ending the world in a nuclear holocaust, whereas Sauron would use things like big corporations, central banks, the media, the United Nations, etc to try and take over and set "order" as he saw fit, leaving as much intact as he could. 

There is, as I think of the modern new world order, and their motto "Order out of Chaos" that perhaps Sauron, in this 21st Century Scenario, might start civil wars and cause some chaos with the hope of breaking down his biggest rivals so that he could then establish the "order" that he wanted. In that regard, he might be a bit like Melkor, but I don't see how he could get along with him for very long even then, as he'd quickly realize that Melkor simply wanted Chaos, not Order out of Chaos. 

Thus, given his personality, it makes more sense that he'd have allied with the Noldor rather than Melkor.


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 1, 2022)

BalrogRingDestroyer said:


> Mairon/Sauron is about order and stability and all of that. Melkor is clearly nihilistic, basically throwing a cosmic temper tantrum because he can't rule Eru's universe, thus trying to destroy everything. It has to be clear that, even if Melkor had won and somehow not only crushed the Elves, but somehow defeated the Valar and even Eru, that he, Sauron, would eventually have been destroyed too by the nihilistic Melkor.


I don't think Melkor started out nihilistic, though, you are are correct, he became such quite quickly. I think Sauron thought he could get more power, which was a secondary goal of his.


BalrogRingDestroyer said:


> I can see Melkor using Sauron for when he wanted someone to beat someone up, but I can't see any real long term use for Sauron that Melkor could have had. It's possible that Sauron was duped into thinking Melkor wanted order, and was just too afraid of him later to defy him and too afraid of the Valar to go back after joining their enemy, but why wouldn't he have taken redemption after Melkor's capture and when the Valar clearly offered it?


Sauron wasn't captured until after the second defeat of Melkor. At that point they also wanted to punish Sauron and he wasn't about that, despite feeling some levels of contrition.


BalrogRingDestroyer said:


> You'd think if Sauron were to go evil, it might be in that he joined Feanor and his sons in the quest to return the Simarils and defeat Melkor, only he might have somehow become their leader (though, I suppose, that would have boded a very dark future for Middle Earth if he had, as there would have been two separate forces, one attacking from within to a level Melkor never was able to achieve) that the good members of the Noldor would eventually fight against. In this situation, Sauron would dominate the more greedy and power-hungry Elves, leading them on, and reminding them that he was best suited to help them against Melkor, since the Valar and Eru wouldn't. And he'd justify any attacks that his allied Elves did against the Elves that wouldn't go along with him, stating that those Elves were acting selfishly against the better interests of the Noldor.


At this point Sauron had made his choice. There was no opposing Melkor even with the Noldor (especially since they were now cursed).


BalrogRingDestroyer said:


> It makes little sense why, if Sauron wanted to restore order and felt that the Valar weren't doing their jobs, why he'd side with Melkor, the guy out to cause as much disorder as possible, rather than, say, the Noldor, the ones who rebelled against the Valar and wanted to stop Melkor and get the stolen Simirals back.


It wasn't just order for Sauron. It was about control. Ordering it how HE wanted.


BalrogRingDestroyer said:


> If Sauron and Melkor were in the 21st Century, Melkor would attempt to "take over" by going to all the nuclear facilities of each major nuclear country and pushing all the big red buttons, ending the world in a nuclear holocaust, whereas Sauron would use things like big corporations, central banks, the media, the United Nations, etc to try and take over and set "order" as he saw fit, leaving as much intact as he could.


According to Tolkien, at his end, Sauron had also become nihilistic. Millennia of evil, the creation of the One Ring, and multiple deaths had left his mind far more twisted than he'd been at the end of the even the First Age.


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## d4rk3lf (Oct 2, 2022)

I think I've heard somewhere that Tolkien wrote that Sauron admired Melkor because "he could make things done".
Now, apart from that, here is the 3 reason that I think he stayed with Melkor:
1) Melkor gave him grand authority and probably let him organize stuff internally however he want (he didn't interfered)
2) He could learn a whole lot from Melkor
3) He could gain raw power from Melkor, because, as we know, Melkor gave his power left and right (feeding dragons, for example), so he could probably transfer some of his power to Sauron and Balrogs too.

As for the Sauron/Noldors coalition, I find it very unlikely.
Feanor wouldn't, by any chance, follow anyone but himself, and he would not allow anyone to be leader but himself.
Even if Sauron would agree to follow Feanor, He would definitely saw through him, that Sauron would, at the end, try to take or steal Silmarils from him.
Feanor didn't even trusted his half brothers.
Maybe after Feanor's death, but then again, I don't think son of Feanor would accept Sauron that easily, and as we know from later events, Sauron isn't that strong to control elves.


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 2, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> As for the Sauron/Noldors coalition, I find it very unlikely.
> Feanor wouldn't, by any chance, follow anyone but himself, and he would not allow anyone to be leader but himself.
> Even if Sauron would agree to follow Feanor, He would definitely saw through him, that Sauron would, at the end, try to take or steal Silmarils from him.
> Feanor didn't even trusted his half brothers.
> Maybe after Feanor's death, but then again, I don't think son of Feanor would accept Sauron that easily, and as we know from later events, Sauron isn't that strong to control elves.


I wouldn't have been surprised is Sauron tried to work with Fëanor since, according to Gandalf, Fëanor was the more cunning smith. But you're right, Fëanor would have been to protective of his work to let Sauron anywhere near it. Also they never met.


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## The Void (Oct 3, 2022)

Eru made Melkor the mightiest of the Valar. He could have had it all - ruler of the Valar. Instead Manwe became so, because Melkor couldn't abide to be a sub-ordinate servant to Eru like Manwe and the rest became. Melkor wanted to become 'individual' and not a 'team player'. He wanted to better himself.
Alas for Melkor, Tolkien wrote his stories in the Northern Hemisphere - where 'writing' is a team sport and thus Melkor became the bad guy. 
Move it to the Southern Hemisphere here and Melkor would be the Good guy fighting the evil team of Valar led by Manwe. 

Sauron should have tried to approach the Nolder. Feanor showed all the traits of potential evil, being selfishly ambitious for his own accord. But Sauron or Melkor didn't really have to take control of Feanor - he was going to stuff things up anyway by his own device. Feanor lacked 'love' in his life, with no Mother around to show him what its all about. He was an 'over-achiever' that made simple things more complicated than they needed to be, just to appear more sophisticated than he really was. Sauron would have probably succeeded in turning Feanor to the dark side, as Sauron wouldn't have been as 'dangerous' to him, as Melkor was. Sauron could have flattered Feanor's alpha ego easily and with Feanor turning, so would many Noldor.

In the end, most of the Noldor did 'fall' to the dark side with their willingness to kinslay for Feanor's 'precioussss' Simarils and left Valinor to the 'lesser' realm of Middle-Earth to live with the 'inferior kinds'. The Feanor curse would indeed be that. But for the Noldor - Glorfindal and co kinda turned a bad situation of being with the middle-class of peoples into something more respectable for the Noldor. But they also had to 'socialise' in battle with the 'lower-class' of Melkor's corrupted Elves (Orcs), etc. Talk about getting your hands dirty eh. 

If Sauron did turn Feanor (and his sons) towards Melkor's side. Well, Sauron would be crafty and declare his 'servitude' to Feanor - knowing full well that he was just fueling the fire of Feanor going about everything the wrong way anyway. He would decare that he was NOT in league with Melkor - thus making Feanor believe he was his own boss, not a servant of Melkor directly. Sauron would be Feanor's version of Grima Wormtongue. Many Noldor would have been enslaved, via Feanor's directive - by Sauron on default behalf of Melkor. 

The Noldor of Middle-Earth under Sauron's shadowing of Feanor - would have committed more kinslaying against the Elves already in Middle-Earth, declaring their 'superiority' over them, let alone warring with the Dwarves and enslave the Men that came into 'their' realm. Melkor would be pleased with Sauron's turning the Noldor against others that would be the enemy of Melkor anyway.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Oct 3, 2022)

The Void said:


> Move it to the Southern Hemisphere here and Melkor would be the Good guy fighting the evil team of Valar led by Manwe.


_Evil team of Valar led by Manwe? This doesn't sound good... _


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## The Void (Oct 3, 2022)

Well things are the 'reverse' in the Southern Hemisphere - you know, 'Down Under' and all that stuff.
But despite Australia being Down Under America so to speak, it is a 'Day Ahead' of America which resides at the 'end of the world'.
But its up to you which you live your life by - Space (like America being 'up there') or Time (like Australia - the 'future', not the past).
I wonder? Has Dr Who ever visited Australia?  It's a 'time' thing here anyway. Just ask any 'convict'.

Yep - Melkor the 'individual' would be the good guy here, while Team 'others' would be the bullies.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Oct 3, 2022)

The Void said:


> Yep - Melkor the 'individual' would be the good guy here, while Team 'others' would be the bullies.


No matter what, I'm not leaving Námo...we can fall together...


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## BalrogRingDestroyer (Oct 4, 2022)

Admittedly I've only read the Silmarallion 2-3 times, but from what I gather, Feanor may have been a real jerk, to put it mildly, but usually he didn't start something if he didn't feel the need to. (I mean, I highly doubt he would have done the kinslaying had they actually agreed to let them have the boats. However, if I recall correctly, he did leave his brother behind or something stupid. 

He may have had an ego and been a good smith, perhaps rivaling or even surpassing Sauron. He wasn't one, unless he wanted something like the Simarils, to go attacking a place, let alone try and take it over. Thus, Sauron probably wouldn't have found him very useful. Come to think of it, I think Sauron would have tried to arrange a way to off him and seduce his sons, or, better yet, get rid of all of them. Sauron is crafty enough to, despite his ego, play second banana to someone (besides Melkor) if he can hope to corrupt them, or at least their people, as he later did with Numenor. 

He could simply ally with them, then start whispering that Feanor, or his sons, as I think he would have let told Feanor NOT to go taking on Melkor, Feanor would decide he knows best, and do it anyway and get killed. Then Sauron would look good. As misfortune fell, I think he would have started rumors within the ranks of the Noldor that the sons of Feanor were unfit to rule them. As the sons of Feanor already had managed to make loads of Elves, both in the Noldor and without them, hate the guts of Feanor and his sons, this wouldn't be that hard to do. 

The trick after that would be trying not to have Melian expose him. 

Anyway, about Feanor, I think he may have, as odd as this sounds, been the type that might, over time, have been turned into a tyrant that DID do things like invade innocents. He wasn't that far away from doing that as it was, as he did with the kinslayings to steal some boats, but there, at least, he did it mainly as he lacked the ability to walk on water or fly so it was hard to get to Middle Earth otherwise. But anyway, he might have tried to supplant Men and other elves or something if corrupted by the Ring.

However, I think that, while I said he might have fallen to the Ring, I don't think he'd be fool enough to fall to Sauron himself trying to trick him. If he can't even bring himself to trust his own family not to mess with his big plans, i doubt he'd be going along with a stranger like Sauron.


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## hollowboldmickelburg (Oct 4, 2022)

Some of the Maiar were as mighty as a Vala and Sauron was one of these. Sauron was originally of the Maia of Aule.


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 4, 2022)

The Void said:


> Eru made Melkor the mightiest of the Valar. He could have had it all - ruler of the Valar. Instead Manwe became so, because Melkor couldn't abide to be a sub-ordinate servant to Eru like Manwe and the rest became. Melkor wanted to become 'individual' and not a 'team player'. He wanted to better himself.
> Alas for Melkor, Tolkien wrote his stories in the Northern Hemisphere - where 'writing' is a team sport and thus Melkor became the bad guy.
> Move it to the Southern Hemisphere here and Melkor would be the Good guy fighting the evil team of Valar led by Manwe.


I'm pretty sure wantonly destroying others things is worse than just "not being a team player".


The Void said:


> Sauron should have tried to approach the Nolder. Feanor showed all the traits of potential evil, being selfishly ambitious for his own accord. But Sauron or Melkor didn't really have to take control of Feanor - he was going to stuff things up anyway by his own device. Feanor lacked 'love' in his life, with no Mother around to show him what its all about. He was an 'over-achiever' that made simple things more complicated than they needed to be, just to appear more sophisticated than he really was. Sauron would have probably succeeded in turning Feanor to the dark side, as Sauron wouldn't have been as 'dangerous' to him, as Melkor was. Sauron could have flattered Feanor's alpha ego easily and with Feanor turning, so would many Noldor.


All true.


The Void said:


> If Sauron did turn Feanor (and his sons) towards Melkor's side. Well, Sauron would be crafty and declare his 'servitude' to Feanor - knowing full well that he was just fueling the fire of Feanor going about everything the wrong way anyway. He would decare that he was NOT in league with Melkor - thus making Feanor believe he was his own boss, not a servant of Melkor directly. Sauron would be Feanor's version of Grima Wormtongue. Many Noldor would have been enslaved, via Feanor's directive - by Sauron on default behalf of Melkor.


In Fëanor's defense (I can't believe I'm saying that), Fëanor WAS stated to be fairly insightful. Sauron could use flattery and would have done infinitely better than Melkor, but I'm not 100% convinced he would have succeeded.


The Void said:


> The Noldor of Middle-Earth under Sauron's shadowing of Feanor - would have committed more kinslaying against the Elves already in Middle-Earth, declaring their 'superiority' over them, let alone warring with the Dwarves and enslave the Men that came into 'their' realm. Melkor would be pleased with Sauron's turning the Noldor against others that would be the enemy of Melkor anyway.


He'd have needed to convince Fëanor they were a threat. Without the Silmarils I'm unsure how successful they'd have been.



hollowboldmickelburg said:


> Some of the Maiar were as mighty as a Vala and Sauron was one of these. Sauron was originally of the Maia of Aule.


If memory serves, there was a marked gap between the least of the Valar and the mightiest of the Maiar. Sauron and Melian certainly show themselves to be some of the mightiest and Eonwë and Ilmarë are stated to be THE mightiest.


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## The Void (Oct 8, 2022)

Eru Iluvatar made Melkor for a reason. To make Melkor both the mightiest of them all and with the potential to turn evil and corrupt everything, to which Eru also states that Melkor's efforts are still part of Eru's plan - shows that Eru isn't just naively good like Manwe - but has a 'dark side' also.


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## Ugluk (Dec 11, 2022)

The Void said:


> Well things are the 'reverse' in the Southern Hemisphere - you know, 'Down Under' and all that stuff.
> But despite Australia being Down Under America so to speak, it is a 'Day Ahead' of America which resides at the 'end of the world'.
> But its up to you which you live your life by - Space (like America being 'up there') or Time (like Australia - the 'future', not the past).
> I wonder? Has Dr Who ever visited Australia?  It's a 'time' thing here anyway. Just ask any 'convict'.
> ...


Good and evil remain the same, regardless of hemisphere.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Dec 12, 2022)

Sort of on this topic, Sauron was aware of the Valar and how all of the Ainur were from outside of the world, created by Eru. So when he was waging war, etc. did he think that if he lost (which I guess he assumed was impossible) that Eru wouldn't punish him, would award him for his actions? Did he even remember that there was a creator of all, watching everything as it went on? Or was his motivation that he didn't agree with how the Valar were running things and he thought he could do better by dominating? And even then, did he think that in taking over ME, that if victorious, Eru and the Valar wouldn't intervene eventually if things got really really bad? 

It almost seems paradoxical to me because if he was aware of Eru and the Valar, which I'd assume he was, then he'd realize that his actions were pointless as no matter what he did he'd always lose in the end, even if he did get to play dictator for a few millennia.


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## CheriptheRipper (Dec 12, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> Sort of on this topic, Sauron was aware of the Valar and how all of the Ainur were from outside of the world, created by Eru. So when he was waging war, etc. did he think that if he lost (which I guess he assumed was impossible) that Eru wouldn't punish him, would award him for his actions? Did he even remember that there was a creator of all, watching everything as it went on? Or was his motivation that he didn't agree with how the Valar were running things and he thought he could do better by dominating? And even then, did he think that in taking over ME, that if victorious, Eru and the Valar wouldn't intervene eventually if things got really really bad?
> 
> It almost seems paradoxical to me because if he was aware of Eru and the Valar, which I'd assume he was, then he'd realize that his actions were pointless as no matter what he did he'd always lose in the end, even if he did get to play dictator for a few millennia.


You bring up a good point, from my pov it would seem Sauron maybe thought it's just fair game because Melkor was given the opportunity to do as he pleased multiple? times?


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## Erestor Arcamen (Dec 12, 2022)

CheriptheRipper said:


> You bring up a good point, from my pov it would seem Sauron maybe thought it's just fair game because Melkor was given the opportunity to do as he pleased multiple? times?


Maybe. I know at the end of Morgoth’s reign, Sauron didn’t go back to Valinor out of pride or shame, can’t remember the exact writing. But wouldn’t that just be even more confirmation that maybe trying to take over the world was a bad idea? Even a literal god (Morgoth) had failed. Maybe he saw his way as different and the “right way” but if someone who originally was as powerful as Morgoth failed so spectacularly you’d think a lesser god such as Sauron would have a little common sense 🤣


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## CheriptheRipper (Dec 12, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> Maybe. I know at the end of Morgoth’s reign, Sauron didn’t go back to Valinor out of pride or shame, can’t remember the exact writing. But wouldn’t that just be even more confirmation that maybe trying to take over the world was a bad idea? Even a literal god (Morgoth) had failed. Maybe he saw his way as different and the “right way” but if someone who originally was as powerful as Morgoth failed so spectacularly you’d think a lesser god such as Sauron would have a little common sense 🤣


Again you make a fine point so I won't dispute it but maybe the difference lies in their intent, like you said 'the right way'.

From Notes on Motives in the Silmarillion:


> Thus, as Morgoth, when Melkor was confronted by the existence of other inhabitants of Arda, with other wills and intelligences, *he was enraged by the mere fact of their existence, and his only notion of dealing with them was by physical force, or the fear of it. His sole ultimate object was their destruction.*


Now granted my timeline ain't quite up to date but I'm fairly certain after all of the wandering around Sauron might have just concluded the Valar weren't actually that interested in him or middle earth.
Paired with the fact he didn't mean to destroy middle earth but merely rule it he just wagered a shot, which afaic almost worked out.


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## Gloranthan (Dec 12, 2022)

I think that Sauron simply didn't have the same kind of absolute knowledge of the Valar and so forth that they had of themselves. He's aware of a spiritual world, and Eru, but he probably doesn't have the same penetration and comprehension of just how they work and what the ultimate destination will be. So there was more room in his mind ambiguity, doubt and self-delusion; perhaps he could pull off his utopia and they'd finally approve of him or something.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Dec 12, 2022)

Gloranthan said:


> I think that Sauron simply didn't have the same kind of absolute knowledge of the Valar and so forth that they had of themselves. He's aware of a spiritual world, and Eru, but he probably doesn't have the same penetration and comprehension of just how they work and what the ultimate destination will be. So there was more room in his mind ambiguity, doubt and self-delusion; perhaps he could pull off his utopia and they'd finally approve of him or something.


He came from Eru as well before Arda was created and studied under Aule before leaving to join Morgoth. So I don’t think it’s a lack of knowledge about them.


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## Gloranthan (Dec 12, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> He came from Eru as well before Arda was created and studied under Aule before leaving to join Morgoth. So I don’t think it’s a lack of knowledge about them.


He's definitely informed, but he's also a lesser being. I would assume that comes with lower levels of IQ and spiritual perceptiveness. Though he's quite clever, despite some glaring blind spots.


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