# Who's older Bombadil or Treebeard?



## Bailey Baggins (Feb 26, 2003)

This is a ridiculous question but Bombadil said he was eldest, which is basically the only knowledge we have about what he is, but why then did Gnadlaf say that Treebeard was eldest?


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## Bailey Baggins (Feb 27, 2003)

alright I couldnt spell on that last one, but other than GANDALF Celeborn also called Treebeard eldest.


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## Eriol (Feb 27, 2003)

If I am not mistaken, Gandalf says that Treebeard is "the oldest of _living things_". This is not to mean that Maiar are dead , I suppose, but all Ainur are older (since created before Arda) than Treebeard -- including of course Gandalf himself. So why the qualification? I would think it more natural to say oldest of living _beings_ -- a subtle distinction, but important. A thing, as opposed as a being, has materiality, occupies a position in space, etc.

My interpretation is that Gandalf is saying that, _among the Children of Ilúvatar_, Treebeard is the oldest. The Children include Dwarves (whom Ilúvatar adopted as His own after Aulë's creation) and Ents (created at the bidding of Yavánna). There is no children older than Treebeard -- no Elves, or other Ents (the only immortal children). This does not mean Treebeard was around since the beginning of time, or is a Maia. He is simply the oldest one around. (Treebeard seems to have some memory of being an Enting, doesn't he? I'm not sure about that, gotta check it. I assume this would mean he had a father and a mother -- or did the children come to be in a immature body? Someone with HoME info could help us on that).

Bombadil, on the other hand, claimed to be around before the first rain fell, and before the first plant grew. This seems to indicate that he was here since the beginning (remember, the first rain fell right at the beginning of the world, as Melkor used fire and cold to hamper the work of the other Valar -- the origin of clouds and snow). 

My conclusion: Bombadil is the oldest (in fact, his words can be interpreted to mean that he was the first spirit to enter Arda). Treebeard is the oldest surviving child of Ilúvatar.


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 27, 2003)

The Elves "awoke" the Ents and taught them how to speak. Tom claims to have seen the Elves going West on their Great Journey.
This makes me think that Tom is older than the Elves, and therefore older than the Ents too. Treebeard may have been the first Ent to "come alive".
I also don't think that Tom _entered_ Arda in the same fashion that the Ainur did. I believe he was a part of it from the beginning, ever since Eru brought Arda into existence by saying "Eä! Let these things Be!". Therefore Tom is younger than the Ainur.


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## Eriol (Feb 27, 2003)

> I also don't think that Tom entered Arda in the same fashion that the Ainur did. I believe he was a part of it from the beginning, ever since Eru brought Arda into existence by saying "Eä! Let these things Be!". Therefore Tom is younger than the Ainur.



I have no firm opinion on this matter, this is why I said that Bombadil's words _can be interpreted as_...

Hehe, this is an old trick, leaving just a bit of vagueness in a statement. I think your opinion is quite coherent. Obviously the Bombadil enigma _can be interpreted_ in this way .

Can it be that Bombadil saluted Gandalf with a "well met, Eldest?"


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## FrankSinatra (Feb 27, 2003)

*Good*

What a good question.

As a wild theory - perhaps they were meant as the same entity?

The emobidment of nature.

Although - as Gandalf says he is going to visit Bombadil, not long after speaking to Treebeard at Isengard, this one's a none starter.

Oh well, i can but try!


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## Goldberry (Feb 27, 2003)

Is it possible Tom Bombadil is one of the Maiar?


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Goldberry _
> *Is it possible Tom Bombadil is one of the Maiar? *



Definitely not one of the Ainur in my opinion. Most people feel the need to put all Tolkien's beings into a category. There is nothing to say singularities could not exist within the framework of Arda.

Check out this thread for info and arguements:
Who IS Tom Bombadil?


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## vinyachilion (Mar 11, 2003)

could it be that maybe tom just wanted to be the oldest so he lied about his age to fool people


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## Theoden_king (Mar 11, 2003)

Doesn't Tom say he was around to see the first trees grow? Maybe Treebeard is just the oldest of the ents?


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## christopher (Mar 11, 2003)

I think the answer is quite simple. Treebeard is the oldest being born on middle earth. One can speculate whether Mithrandir (Maia), Tom Bombadil (probably Maia) or Sauron (Maia) are older, but they do not come from Middle Earth. Who is eldest of the latter three is up for discussion.


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## christopher (Mar 11, 2003)

By the way, how old is Goldberry (the River's daughter) or indeed the River itself.


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## Bethelarien (Mar 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by christopher _
> *I think the answer is quite simple. Treebeard is the oldest being born on middle earth. One can speculate whether Mithrandir (Maia), Tom Bombadil (probably Maia) or Sauron (Maia) are older, but they do not come from Middle Earth. Who is eldest of the latter three is up for discussion. *



It is my understanding that Mithrandir, or Gandalf, is not a Maia. He is an Istar. I understood them to be different. But perhaps someone could enlighten me?


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## Ithrynluin (Mar 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Bethelarien _
> *It is my understanding that Mithrandir, or Gandalf, is not a Maia. He is an Istar. I understood them to be different. But perhaps someone could enlighten me? *



Gandalf is a Maia indeed. The five Maiar that came to Middle Earth (Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast, the Blue Wizards) were called "The Istari" or wizards. Perhaps because they appeared as "wizards" to men's eyes (not dying, performing "magic tricks")?


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## Bethelarien (Mar 13, 2003)

Oh!I didn't know the Istari were Maiar!

That makes so much sense. Yay!


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## christopher (Mar 14, 2003)

Isn't it strange to think that Sauron, Mithrandir and probably Tom were brothers in the mind of Iluvatar?


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## Lantarion (Mar 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Eriol_
> The Children include Dwarves (whom Ilúvatar adopted as His own after Aulë's creation) and Ents (created at the bidding of Yavánna).


Um, I think you'll find that you are mistaken on both accounts..
It is explicitly stated in the Silmarillion: "Now the Children of Ilúvatar were Elves and Men..." 
Dwarves, though not CoI, had a place among them (or somehting).
Ents were nothing like the Children! They were, as I have understood, Maiar who were assigned to take care of the _olvar_.


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## elf boy (Mar 20, 2003)

I'm saying Bombadil, but it kinda depends on what Bombadil is, which tends to be a highly debateable subject with little result.


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## Eriol (Mar 25, 2003)

> Um, I think you'll find that you are mistaken on both accounts..
> It is explicitly stated in the Silmarillion: "Now the Children of Ilúvatar were Elves and Men..."
> Dwarves, though not CoI, had a place among them (or somehting).
> Ents were nothing like the Children! They were, as I have understood, Maiar who were assigned to take care of the olvar.



Regarding the dwarves, I think we agree... Ilúvatar called them "The Children of my adoption", so they are considered children of Ilúvatar (at least by Ilúvatar himself!). As for the Ents, I looked at the Sil and the phrase is something like (I looked at it some days ago, could be slightly wrong): "Eru summoned spirits from afar to..."

So it seems you are correct Lantarion. I guess I was fooled by Treebeard's statement that they were among the Free Peoples... Maiar do not usually think of themselves this way, I think (they call themselves the People of the Valar, right?).

I don't think they should be considered Maiar because of that... but they certainly do not look like Children of Ilúvatar based on that description.


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