# Beren the Selfish?



## Iluvatar (Jun 19, 2005)

A harsh title to be sure, but when Beren has Morgoth at his mercy, snoring away whilst Beren is holding a knife at his head, why didn't Beren just slip the knife into Morgoth's carotid and jugular, thereby severely reducing Morgoth's power. It's true that Morgoth could recorporate, but we know from the case of Sauron that it used up a lot of his power to do so. And we also know from Fingolfin's elfo-a-valo battle that such a physical wound will indeed affect Morgoth. But no, Beren has to capture a Silmaril for his lady love, and in so doing screws over the best chance ever to win the war. Cuz, with Morgoth dead, could the Silmarils be far behind. It seems to me to be more than worth Beren and Luthien's life.


----------



## Thorondor_ (Jun 19, 2005)

> It seems to me to be more than worth Beren and Luthien's life


I agree with that.
Perhaps he realised that Morgoth still has an important part to play in Eru's plans? Or Beren realised that it wasn't up to him to do that? Or was he too scared to think at that moment? Then why didn't Luthien charge? I would say they knew they were playing a very risky card (Morgoth could wake up at any moment) so they tried to get away with what they could - however, cutting away a silmaril would take more time and effort than what you said.
I find it strange that Morgoth had no spell around him for protection ( a "thorns aura"  ).


----------



## HLGStrider (Jun 19, 2005)

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?t=7144&highlight=Beren

You'll like this thread. . .

It has the answer. He was just trying to be manly.


----------



## ingolmo (Jun 20, 2005)

Hmm... I think you're right. Beren should have killed Morgoth. He would have become an even greater hero then. Beren then could have taken the Silmarils.


----------



## HLGStrider (Jun 20, 2005)

Could Beren have killed Morgoth? If you consider how hard Sauron was to kill, and Sauron was one of Morgoth's _servants_, Morgoth, you think, would have been a bit harder to kill than that.


----------



## Alatar (Jun 20, 2005)

Methinks that had Beren gauged out morgoths eyes( not preety but...) all of angband would fall upon there face in fear, then Beren cuts out his tounge. Morgoth is stuck in that body, he cannot die, so lets ruin hthat body. Of course he will use his mind to order servents, but still, it would save the host of the west at the war of wrath alot of time.


----------



## HLGStrider (Jun 20, 2005)

The moment Beren had tried to do anything like that Melkor would have awakened, knocked him flat, and then taken down Luthien for good measure. 

It was stupid for him to go for a second Silmaril. It would be stupider to try and go for Melkor's neck.


----------



## Alatar (Jun 20, 2005)

HLGStrider said:


> The moment Beren had tried to do anything like that Melkor would have awakened, knocked him flat, and then taken down Luthien for good measure.
> 
> It was stupid for him to go for a second Silmaril. It would be stupider to try and go for Melkor's neck.


Oh... I guess your right, when he went for the second eye, Morgoth woulld have froze him with his glare, but Oh...


----------



## HLGStrider (Jun 20, 2005)

I'm not sure if Beren was even thinking that way, however. I think he was thinking, "Get the girl, get the girl, get the girl. . .oooooooh, shiney rock."


----------



## Iluvatar (Jun 20, 2005)

To me it seems likely that Beren had tunnel-visioned his way exclusively into the idea of getting a Silmaril, and then maybe another for good measure. The possibility of killing Morgoth just never entered his - or Tolkien's, for that matter - mind.

But could he have killed Morgoth? IMO, I think it fairly obvious that he could have. After all, Fingolfin did fairly serious damage to Morgoth with Ringil. And it is stated that Morgoth wasn't exactly overjoyed about the idea of going up against Fingolfin in the firsat place, although methinks there might be a bit of Elvish propaganda involved in that one. And let's not forget that an eagle - albeit a biggish eagle like Thorondor - scarred up Morgoth's face pretty badly in the aftermath.

As for Sauron being hard to kill, he was forced to give up Tol Sirion (I think; I'm writing this from memory) just because a big dog (Valinorean or not, Huan was just a big dog). He got killed by having his finger cut off by Isildur (okay, the Ring may have had something to do with that). But he also got hisself killed just because of a flood. Granted, it was the Mother of all Floods, but he was forced to reincorporate himself afterwards, and was now no longer able to take on a fair-seeming form cuz of the power loss involved in reincorporation.

But that brings up the real problem, cuz even though the Fall of Numenor essentially killed Sauron's corporeal form, the big bad dude was able to reincorporate hisself pretty quickly. So, while I think it is apparent that Beren could have killed Morgoth's then-current corporeal form, he definitely could not have killed the being of Morgoth the Vala. So how long would it have taken for Morgoth to reincorporate? There's no way of knowing, but given that he was more powerful than Sauron it's reasonable to believe that he could have done it more quickly. But could it have been instantaneous? I doubt it, but that is admittedly based on no evidence beyond that of my own beliefs. But even it it could have been instantaneous, which would have been serious bad news for Beren and Luthien, all the evidence points to the new incorporation have measurably less power than the prior version.

Would that less powerful version still have been more than a match for the Elves of Beleriand? Quite likely, given that even less powerful he's still a Vala, but the fight would ultimately have been a bit less one-sided. In fact, it might have been close enough that Earendil's mission might never have happened, and that the war would have fallen into a perpetual stalemate that the Elves would nevertheless still lose. Which makes Beren's selfish move a good thing, does it not?

Then again, that last paragraph is nothing but the most useless of conjectures. Given what he knew at the time, killing Morgoth was his duty even before that of capturing a Silmaril, and ultimately he failed at doing or even attempting that duty.


----------



## HLGStrider (Jun 20, 2005)

Well, he would have died doing it. It wasn't his task. His girlfriend was right there and would have been killed too. The Silmarils are shiny. Get the jewel and get out! 


My vote would be that all of the creatures you listed were a ton more powerful than Beren, who was only a man, if a great man. He does, in fact, spend a lot of the tale knocked out, dying, or badly wounded. This knife can cut steel, but it is just a knife. Morgoth may have been mesmerized, but he wolk up when Beren went for a second stone. I imagine he would have awakened all the quicker if Beren had tried to remove anything more essential.


----------



## Ashigaru13 (Jun 24, 2005)

But I thought violets were blue!


----------



## Arvegil (Jun 27, 2005)

Not only is it highly debatable as to whether he could have killed Morgoth, return of the Silmaril was, itself, an important act. After all, it had been long foretold that no Elf or Man would destroy Morgoth, but only one speaking for both piercing the veil over Valinor, would end things. Beren fulfilled his role: he started the chain of causaton which enabled Earendil to penetrate the Enchanted Isles.


----------



## Alatar (Jun 27, 2005)

i think that if beren had got the sil, it would have blazed as he was doing a good act, then he ran, when he saw the wolf, all he thought was, "I have it, from the crown of Melkor i have the jewl" and thought he was inviceable, though when caracorth provved hi wrong by removing he hand from his arm.


----------



## Thorondor_ (Jun 27, 2005)

The fact that Carcharoth attacked them was because he was awaken as a result of Beren's "greed". If Beren would have been satisfied with one Silmaril, Carcharoth would have been snoring when they were passing by him.


----------



## Alatar (Jun 28, 2005)

I still think that if they had not bothered with the wolf, and just threw the cloak on it, they could have got away.
Btw, anyone read the sellamillion by A.r.r.r Roberts?


----------



## Thorondor_ (Jun 29, 2005)

From the description of Carcharoth, he seems very big, I doubt that the cloack could cover more than his nose. And the cloack didn't save them in the first place, as Luthien had to use her magic power to deal with him when they entered Angband. And when they tried to get out, she was too exhausted to use her power to stop the guardian.


----------



## Alatar (Jun 29, 2005)

Looking back, Beren should have knifed him during his little nap.


----------



## Thorondor_ (Jun 29, 2005)

Alatar said:


> Looking back, Beren should have knifed him during his little nap.


In my opinion, Carcharoth is too big and strong to be killed by knife that can snap. He would only succeed in waking up the beast - therefore I would say they were lucky enought they got past him in the very first place.


----------

