# Tolkien being Lazy



## Elfarmari (May 31, 2002)

Useless Tolkien fact:
I just noticed that some of the lines in 'Durin's Song' that Gimli (I think) sings speaking of Moria are the same as the lines used in 'The Gest of Beren and Luthien' to describe Thingol's realm in Beleriand.

Durin's Song:
. . .A king he was on carven throne
*In many-pillared halls of stone* 
With golden roof and silver floor,
And runes of power upon the door. . .

. . .There forged was blade, and bound was hilt;
The delver mined, the mason built.
*There beryl, pearl, and opal pale,
And metal wrought like fishes' mail,
Buckler and corslet, axe and sword,
And shining spears were laid in hoard.*. . .

Gest of Beren and Luthien:
. . .enchantment did his realm enfold, 
where might and glory, wealth untold, 
he wielded from his ivory throne 
*in many-pillared halls of stone. 
There beryl, pearl, and opal pale,
and metal wrought like fishes' mail, 
buckler and corslet, axe and sword, 
and gleaming spears were laid in hoard— *
all these he had and loved them less 
than a maiden once in Elfinesse;
for fairer than are born to Men 
a daughter had he, Lúthien. . .

(This is a clear sign that I am completely obsessed with Tolkien!)


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## Zale (May 31, 2002)

I think Tolkien had a right to be lazy from time to time; he invented so much other stuff, and almost all of it as near 100% original as possible.


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## Lantarion (Jun 1, 2002)

Perhaps it was accidental. OK, I don't believe that myself, but it is possible.
I think it may be a subtle hint towards the friendship and counteraction between Dwarves and Elves. Having almost identical stanzas in completely different poems might be a sign of culture rubbing off from the Elves to the Dwarves, or vice versa.
And even if it was 'laziness', I think the Grandfather of Fantasy has a right to be.


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## Elfarmari (Jun 2, 2002)

I definitly agree that Tolkien had the right to be lazy from time to time! This was just one of those useless things I notice occasionally.


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## ReadWryt (Jun 3, 2002)

I like it myself...It adds an air of realism to the world and mythology. If you go back and look at the ancient tales of great acts in a good many cultures you find the exact same thing. In the days when most popular news was spread by bards and storytellers they would borrow well crafted descriptive phrases from older poems and songs regularly. I'm only left wondering if Tolkien did this intentionally (Genius!!), or if it was merely coincidental (laziness?).


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## Eogthea (Jun 4, 2002)

Laziness? No. Cultural runoff? Possible. I think its the fact that the elves and the dwarves saw the same things in similar light, possibly to offset the views of other races.


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## Tyaronumen (Jun 7, 2002)

Actually, I see this more as a case of the unfinished story of Middle-Earth being brought to light again... I suspect that Tolkien would often find a place for his poems (just as he did his languages) in his works, and that this bit may have appeared in two different places because they were written at quite different chronological points in his life, and only one was ready for publication, while the other was a work in progress (any may have seen that poem change)...


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## arisen pheonix (Jun 11, 2002)

ok have any of you ever tried to some of the stuff he did???? he invented langauges and alphabets and i think he probably forgot now ive created to alphabets the enoian (high caracters) and the erandillian (low caracters) and i have a hard time remembering everthing think about all the stuff he had to remember plus he was a proffesor give the man a break

forgive them all mighty tolkien they know not what they say

you should go to the holy shrine of tolkien and beg forgiveness!!!


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## Beorn (Jun 13, 2002)

I've found something similiar to this...It's Tolkien vs. Shakespeare!

Shakespeare wrote (where, I've no idea): All that glitters is not gold
And Tolkien wrote: All that is gold does not glitter


Gee...see any similarities? They _do_ have two different meanings(S: It may look good but it isn't necessarily vs. T: It may not look like gold but it is) but why are they so amazingly similar...


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## Eogthea (Jun 13, 2002)

Hmmm. I have no idea. Maybe Tolkien read Shakespeare like the rest of the English speaking world? Or maybe he was familar with this common saying? Naw, that couldn't be it. I know! He invented a time machine and had tea with Shakespeare and they discussed English idiomatic expressions! What do you think?


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## Flame of Anor (Jun 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Eogthea _
> *Laziness? No. Cultural runoff? Possible. I think its the fact that the elves and the dwarves saw the same things in similar light, possibly to offset the views of other races. *



I am in the midst of reading the Sil and have noticed that the Elves and Dwarves for a long time worked together to make great cities. And two of these are Menegroth and Nargothrond which the Elves hired the Dwarves to make for them. And in both cases the Dwarves delved into both mountain and hill to make them. That could also cause much similarities between the two stanzas.

-Flame


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## Theoden (Jun 21, 2002)

Hmm, interesting thought, Flame, you make a good point.

-me


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