# The Noldor -  exiled by will or necessity?



## Ithrynluin (Feb 20, 2003)

What do you think...were the Noldor exiled by will or by necessity/force? Or was it a combination of both?

If the Silmarils had never been stolen, do you think they would had been content with living in Aman?

Discuss.


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## Lhunithiliel (Feb 21, 2003)

Nice topic!

And one suitable for my "What if?"-game, too!  

But on the subject. At the start I will only say that thinking of it all, I believe that sooner or later there would have been a process of immigration from Aman to ME.

From that initial number 144 (where the h*** can I find this chapter?!) the Elves population had grown it seems to quite a large state. And Aman was just an island. With all their skills and with that typical for them (especially for the Noldor) desire to achieve new aims and to create new things and to explore new horizons... I am sure this would have happened one way or another.
The rape of the Silmarils unfortunately made it have a negative meaning and consequences.

I wonder.... would the Valar willingly have aided the Quendi in their immigration back to ME if it had been a peaceful process?


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 23, 2003)

Lhun, I agree. I cannot possibly imagine the Noldor staying in Aman forever. It is just not in their "fiery" nature. We know that Galadriel, Fingon and Finrod were eager to adventure to Middle Earth and I daresay they would want to go there even if the rape of the Silmarils hadn't occured. I also think that the majority of the Noldorin people felt the same way.

So what was it? Their own will or necessity? I'd say that at the moment of their departure it was more of a necessity than their own will. But a necessity for what? Revenge? Regaining the Silmarils?

And what if they stayed in Aman - what would Melkor have done with the Silmarils and no resistance?


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## Confusticated (Feb 24, 2003)

I think it was necessary for the war against Morgoth.

Maybe much of the Noldor would have returned to Middle-earth if not for the silmarils and Finwe's death. It was after Melkor went among the Noldor that they started to envision realms that they could have ruled and began to question the motives of the Valar. It was after these ideas were conjured up by Melkor but even before the loss of the silmarils and Finwe that Feanor began to speak openly against the Valar and Noldor grew proud.

Would the Noldor have left Aman if not for the release of Melkor?


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 24, 2003)

> *by Nóm*
> It was after Melkor went among the Noldor that they started to envision realms that they could have ruled and began to question the motives of the Valar.



I don't think Melkor had much to do with these visions of free lands. They were part of the adventurous Noldorin spirit I think, to test their skills upon Middle Earth without the supervision of the Valar.


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## Confusticated (Feb 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *I don't think Melkor had much to do with these visions of free lands. They were part of the adventurous Noldorin spirit I think, to test their skills upon Middle Earth without the supervision of the Valar. *






> *From the Sil, Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor*
> 
> Ever Melkor found some ears that would heed him, and some tongues that would enlarge what they had heard; and his lies passed from friend to friend, as secrets of which the knowledge proves the teller wise. Bitterly did the Noldor atone for the folly of their open ears in the days that followed after.
> 
> When he saw that many leaned towards him. Melkor would often walk among them, and amid his fair words others were woven, so subtly that many who heard them believed in recollection that they arose from their own thought. Visions he would conjure in their hearts of the mighty realms that they could have ruled at their own will...


What indication is there that the Noldor had such thoughts before the release of Melkor?


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 24, 2003)

> _From Unfinished Tales: The History of Galadriel and Celeborn_
> Galadriel was born in the bliss of Valinor, but it was not long, in the reckoning of the Blessed Realm, before that was dimmed; and thereafter she had no peace within. For in that testing time amid the strife of the Noldor she was drawn this way and that. She was proud, strong, and selfwilled, as were all the descendants of Finwë save Finarfin; and like her brother Finrod, of all her kin the nearest to her heart, she had *dreams of far lands and dominions that might be her own to order as she would without tutelage*.



This is a pretty general description of Galadriel's character. I don't see any association with Melkor here. This is what many Noldor were like. Melkor might have just speeded the process up a little bit.


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## Confusticated (Feb 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *This is a pretty general description of Galadriel's character. I don't see any association with Melkor here. This is what many Noldor were like. Melkor might have just speeded the process up a little bit. *


Well I haven't read that in UT, but based on the portion you have quoted it sounds to me as though that came to be after Melkor's release.

"Galadriel was born in the bliss of Valinor, *but it was not long, in the reckoning of the Blessed Realm, before that was dimmed; and thereafter she had no peace within. *"


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 24, 2003)

Ah indeed! I only quoted the whole paragraph to provide some context. The first few sentences certainly have to do with Melkor.



> She was proud, strong, and selfwilled, as were all the descendants of Finwë save Finarfin; and like her brother Finrod, of all her kin the nearest to her heart, she had dreams of far lands and dominions that might be her own to order as she would without tutelage.



But this part is a description of their character in general. This is who she was. Her (and the rest of the Noldor's) characteristics did not change because of Melkor's lies, only their desire to go to Middle Earth surfaced sooner and quicker. I stand by what I said.


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## Goldberry (Feb 24, 2003)

Although the Noldor were immortal, they still displayed many human qualities. I don't think humans are ever content in paradise. They'll always do something to ruin it. 

I agree that the Noldor would have left Valinor with or without Melkor. They were very proud and very strong-willed. Otherwise, Melkor's words would have had no effect on them. He was just the catalyst that made them go.


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## Confusticated (Feb 25, 2003)

Goldberry, welcome to the guild! It's good to have you join us.

I also think the Noldor were most like men, and least content in the elvish paradise. 

It is said that the Vanyar held Melkor in suspicion, for they dwelt in the light of the trees and were content, whereas Melkor gave small heed to the Teleri thinking they didn't have enough to offer him, but the Noldor were open to him and delighted in the knowledge gained from him. 

This gives me the impression that if the Noldor had been content, they would have held Melkor in suspicion as did the Vanyar. Were the Vanyar content only because they lived nearer the trees? I don't think so, but the wording can suggest that, depending upon how it's read. We know that they were content to dwell in that light while the Noldor were not and wishing to see the stars again ended up in Tirion.
So the wording may instead suggest that the Vanyar were content as is evident by their dwelling in the treelight, rather than that the treelight dwelling made them content.
It is my belief that it was both of these things; being more content the Vanyar wished to dwell in the light, and being it that light furthered their contentment.

I am not sure that the Noldor would eventually have returned to Middle-earth, but I think it is most likely.

As far as pride being a part of their character, we do have this:



> High princes were Feanor and Fingolfin, the elder sons of Finwe, honoured by all in Aman; but now they grew proud and jealous each of his rights and his possessions. Then Melkor set new lies abroad...


and then...


> And when Melkor saw that these lies were smouldering, and that pride and anger were awake among the Noldor, he spoke to them concerning weapons...


Maybe this pride would have come out eventually because of something else. I don't know what would have brought out this kind of pride or anger, and especially a distrust of the Valar, if not for Melkor, but I suspect Feanor would have been at the heart of it.

Now since I think it was necessery that the Noldor return to Middle-earth to fight against Morgoth, I can not imagine what necessity there would have been if not for Melkor's release. It could be the meeting with men, the Noldor were faster in friendship with men than were the Sindar. But I believe the release of Melkor, the making of the silmarils, the darkening of Valinor, and the Flight of the Noldor were doomed.

I also think that it was the different character of the kindreds which caused Manwe and Varda to love more the Vanyar and Aule more the Noldor. But I think that the character of these kindreds was further changed by the guidence they recieved from the Valar who most delighted in them. So I would say that the characteristics of the Kindreds were both the cause of and the result of the love and friendship of the 
Vala(r) to whom they were most beloved.

Another thing that I think caused something that in turn effected that cause to increase, is the Noldor's relationship with Melkor in Aman.
Melkor's lies and deceptions enhanced those characteristics of the Noldor that drew him to them.


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## Lantarion (Jun 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Nóm_
> Maybe this pride would have come out eventually because of something else. I don't know what would have brought out this kind of pride or anger, and especially a distrust of the Valar, if not for Melkor, but I suspect Feanor would have been at the heart of it.
> 
> Now since I think it was necessery that the Noldor return to Middle-earth to fight against Morgoth, I can not imagine what necessity there would have been if not for Melkor's release.


I agree that Melkor was the only reason for the exile of the Noldor. Perhaps the Noldor were proud or non-receptive to governance (i.e. of the Valar) from the beginning, but without Melkor's influence they would have either stayed in Aman for ever, or would have begged leave of the Valar to explore Middle-earth. Because as the 'messenger of Manwë' says to Fëanor as he is leaving Valinor:


> "Against the folly of Fëanor shall be set my counsel only. Go not forth! For the hour is evil, and your road leads to sorrow that ye do not foresee. No aid will the Valar lend you in this quest; but neither will they hinder you; for this ye shall know: as ye came hither freely, freely shall ye depart. But thou Fëanor Finwë's son, by thine oath art exiled..."


They were not prisoners in Aman, and I have no doubt that had matters been less evil the Valar would have even ferried them to Middle-earth, if the Eldar had wished it, and had Melkor not ever come among them.


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## Confusticated (Jun 5, 2003)

> I agree that Melkor was the only reason for the exile of the Noldor.



Maybe I worded things poorly. I do not thinkwar against Morgoth was the only necessity, just the primary one. The contact that men had with the Calaquendi, and the unions of the races were also necessary. No less necessary perhaps... but I say Morgoth was the primary because I think it was the effects of this that caused the others to be necessities. That if not for Morgoth's return to Middle-earth, men may have been such that they did not need this contact with the Noldor.


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## Lantarion (Jun 5, 2003)

Well yes: what I meant was that had it not ben for Morgoth the Noldor probably wouldn't have been exiled at all.


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## gate7ole (Jun 5, 2003)

From Letter #131


> The doom of the Elves is to be immortal, to love the beauty of the world, to bring it to full flower with their gifts of delicacy and perfection, to last while it lasts, never leaving it even when 'slain', but returning – *and yet, when the Followers come, to teach them*, and make way for them, to 'fade'


It is intriguing to think how the Elves would have taught Men, if the Noldor hadn’t returned to the Middle Lands. Someone might argue that the Sindar would play this part, but certainly it would not be the same; the knowledge of the Valar would not pass from the Calaquendi to the Edain.
So, was it also a part of Eru’s plan? Of course, we again mix with the difficult topic of free will and a preordained future. But still, I can see that the return of the Noldor was in a way a “return” to the plan of Eru that they would be the teachers to the Followers, plan which seemed to have diverged by the coming of the Elves to Valinor.

Anyway, to answer the question of the thread, it was neither just will not just necessity. As it is always the case, the middle is the answer. The Noldor would not have been “forced” to abandon Valinor for Middle-Earth, by anyone or any necessity. And on the other hand, the will is always “enforced” by necessities or situations. The exact moment that the Noldor flied back to the Middle Lands combined both their will to dominate other lands, as well as the necessity to revenge Morgoth.
And to answer the “what-if” part of the question, if Morgoth hadn’t stolen the Silmarils, there would be soon another cause for the Noldor to flee. Morgoth just played his part in the unfolding of Eru’s plan.


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## Lhunithiliel (Jun 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by gate7ole _
> Anyway, to answer the question of the thread, it was neither just will not just necessity. As it is always the case, the middle is the answer. The Noldor would not have been “forced” to abandon Valinor for Middle-Earth, by anyone or any necessity. And on the other hand, the will is always “enforced” by necessities or situations. The exact moment that the Noldor flied back to the Middle Lands combined both *their will to dominate other lands, as well as the necessity to revenge Morgoth.*


Why do I see it just the other way round - _necessity_ for new lands and horizons and _will_ to avenge Morgoth.
But on the other hand, what _will_ are we talking about anyway? For how much _free will_ did the Elves have?



> And to answer the “what-if” part of the question, if Morgoth hadn’t stolen the Silmarils, there would be soon another cause for the Noldor to flee. Morgoth just played his part in the unfolding of Eru’s plan.


To which I do agree 


> _Lantarion_:Well yes: what I meant was that had it not ben for Morgoth the Noldor probably wouldn't have been exiled at all.


But I'm certain they would have departed in any case!


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## Confusticated (Jun 6, 2003)

As for the old discussion about would Galadirel and the Noldor have had pride, visions of other realms and whatnot, if not for Morgoth coming among them, I have thought to bring up something I found awhile back when reading the Shibboleth, from which came that bit found in UT.

After that bit quoted by ithrynluin, it goes on to tell more of Galadriel, and in specific her relationship with Feanor.



> In him she perceived a darkness that she hated and feared, though he did not perceive that shadow of the same evil had fallen upon the minds of all the Noldor, and upon herself.



This gives more support to my interpreation that she was as she was described in that quote, because of Morgoth.


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## Ithrynluin (Jun 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Nóm _
> *This gives more support to my interpreation that she was as she was described in that quote, because of Morgoth. *



So the Noldor are who they are because of Morgoth, at least partly? Regarding their adventurous characteristics, they are no different from the Vanyar and the Teleri then?

We could just as well say that the Teleri loved the sea _because of_ Ulmo/Ossë.

I find this impossible to agree with. All three kindreds of the Elves had unique characteristics, and no Vala could change that.


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## Gil-Galad (Jun 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lhunithiliel _
> *Nice topic!
> 
> And one suitable for my "What if?"-game, too!
> ...




Lhun,if I were you I would say the same things.You have stolen my words from my mouth.


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## Grond (Jul 4, 2003)

I am in agreement with Nom's assessment here. The turning point for the Noldor... when they began to become dissatisfied with Aman was due to Melkor's whisperings. The murder of Finwe and the rape of the Silmarils was just the spark that lit the fire.


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## Thorondor_ (Sep 15, 2005)

More on the "necessity" part:


Myths transformed said:


> One especial aspect of this is the strange way in which the evils of the Marrer, or his inheritors, are turned into weapons against evil. If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reestablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth, without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction.


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## Inderjit S (Sep 21, 2005)

I wonder.



> Hearken now, O Valar! To me foretelling * is granted no less
> than doom, and I will proclaim now to you things both near and
> far. Behold! Indis the fair shall be made glad and fruitful, who
> might else have been solitary. For not in death only hath the
> ...



from Morgoths Ring

I think Eru desired dissonance in his 'song' or world, as this would lead to a greater good in his earth then if there was no dissonance. The Noldor brought this stain with them from Middle-Earth, 'Morgoths Ring', which was tainted, and though it slept long it finally 'awoke' with the death of Miriel-which was the first of many steps which led to the fall of the Noldor. Though the Valar had to release Melkor, and though Melkor would never now repent, I think it was the Noldor's part to if not defeat him, then at least to 'hold him back' and thus glorify the children-Men, Elves and Dwarves, and 'raise them up' so to speak. I think the unrest may have been triggered by the lies of Melkor, well partly by the lies of Melkor, and partly by the taint which the Noldor brought from Middle-Earth-lies usually had to have some kind of foundation in order to be listened to and followed, the Vanyar refused to treat with him, but the Noldor did and this was a sign of the taint, their desire to leave Aman and rebellion was another sign of the taint, perpetuated by Melkor.


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## Snaga (Sep 22, 2005)

The Eldar are subcreationists par excellence, and the Noldor more than any others. How long would they be satisfied in adding to the perfection created by the Valar in Aman, when they could create their own vision elsewhere? I think they would have returned, but not so ruinously as in their Flight.


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## Ingwë (Jan 4, 2007)

I think that the occasion and the motive are two different words. 
The _occasion _for going to Middle-earth was Melkor and his words to the Noldor. They wanted to be free. Valinor was the realm of the Valar, it wasn't their home. They wanted their own realm, their own home to live in. They didn't want to live in "others' house". So they began to think of Middle-earth. And the _motive _for going to Middle-earth was Finwë's dead and the Silmaril. That was "pointbreak" 
But one way or another I think they would have left Aman. And not only the Noldor would have done it. The Teleri love travelling, they love the Great Sea and I think they would have travelled to Middle-earth, build some ports. They didn't go there because of the kinslaying, I think. But otherwise I think they would have started travelling to Middle-earth. And if the Teleri have started travelling, I think the Noldor would have joined them, too, because they love exploring, creating things. Middle-earth was the perfect home for them.


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## Confusticated (Sep 17, 2010)

Sharkey said:


> So the Noldor are who they are because of Morgoth, at least partly? Regarding their adventurous characteristics, they are no different from the Vanyar and the Teleri then?


 
Of course they were. Their hunger for knowledge.



> We could just as well say that the Teleri loved the sea _because of_ Ulmo/Ossë.


Not a fair comparison.



> I find this impossible to agree with. All three kindreds of the Elves had unique characteristics, and no Vala could change that.


 
I never claimed that the Nolor were just like the other two. I am just saying that their pride as a race was aquired through the unrest that Melkor planted and the secret knowledge he let slip among them. They became full of themselves. He was a master at planting ideas into their heads without their being aware of it. Ideas like seeds, and distrust is probably the worst thing you can give somebody because once planted it is difficult to squash, and he gave them that towards the Valar. Knew exactly what he was doing.


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