# Does anybody else feel bad for Gollum, or am I just a giant marshmellow? Also...



## ILLOTRTM (Apr 22, 2002)

I feel so bad for him because he's under the controll of the precious and could never really live after he found it! The poor little wretch... Oh! I almost forgot! He broke his promise to the precious! He promised to be very good and I don't know about you guys but I'm afraid I just don't call leading Frodo and Sam to Shelob very good at all!


----------



## YayGollum (Apr 22, 2002)

Here I am! Of course you feel bad for him! He's the hero and noone thinks so! No, he didn't break his promise! I always thought that destroying the Ring and saving Middle Earth was a good thing! Shows what I know! Yay Gollum!


----------



## Xanaphia (Apr 22, 2002)

*Poor, Poor Gollum...*

Poor Gollum! I feal bad for him too. He couldn't help breaking the promise. He probably couldn't comprehend the fact that he was breaking his promise.
Xanaphia


----------



## YayGollum (Apr 22, 2002)

He kept his promise! He was good! He was the hero! Argh!


----------



## chrysophalax (Apr 22, 2002)

He kept his promise to the Precious never to let HIM (Sauron) have it. When he fell into Mt. Doom he fulfilled his promise!


----------



## ILLOTRTM (Apr 22, 2002)

Yesssss, but Smeagol sssspecificley promissessss that he will be very, very good!


----------



## YayGollum (Apr 22, 2002)

Okay, that was scary. Are you Pro or anti Gollum? The title of the thread suggests you're pro, but you're evilly ummm...being evil to him! He was good! He saved the day! That's a good thing to do!


----------



## chrysophalax (Apr 22, 2002)

"Good" to Gollum may NOT be "good" to others!


----------



## ILLOTRTM (Apr 22, 2002)

Oh, I'm pro Gollum, yes. Very much so! However! He DID break his promise, and it makes me sad. Though, you are right! He did save the day! I'm sorry, Smeagol!


----------



## YayGollum (Apr 22, 2002)

Ack! Argh! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dragon! You're supposed to be good to Gollum! Remember? Thank you, scary all caps named dude for being pro Gollum, but why do you think he broke his promise? He promised to keep the Ring from Sauron and to be good. He did both.


----------



## Sam_Gamgee (Apr 22, 2002)

i feel bad because hes pathetic thats about it


----------



## Persephone (Apr 22, 2002)

*here we go again...*

I feel bad for smeagol, Gollum was the product of the ring's corruption. It is smeagol who got corrupted and turned into Gollum. It is smeagol who we should pity


----------



## Greenwood (Apr 22, 2002)

*Re: here we go again...*



> _Originally posted by Narya _
> *I feel bad for smeagol, Gollum was the product of the ring's corruption. It is smeagol who got corrupted and turned into Gollum. It is smeagol who we should pity *



Well said Narya! Smeagol is to be pitied. It was not his fault he was trapped and corrupted by the Ring. But Gollum is the evil creature created by the Ring. Frodo shoed him pity and tried to help him. His return to Frodo was to lead Frodo into a trap and nearly get him killed and his destruction of the Ring was because he was a clumsy klutz. Smeagol/Gollum is indeed a sad character, but in the end he was a lost soul.


----------



## shadowfax_g (Apr 22, 2002)

I think, if Flodo and Gollum were alone and Sam wasn't there, Gollum would become more friendly to Frodo and he would not lead Frodo to the trap. Sam's strong hatered against Gollum (I don't know why, it's unfairely extreem), had driven him to an evil deed (I mean, to Shelob).


----------



## Persephone (Apr 23, 2002)

*If Frodo and Gollum were alone without Sam...*

Gollum would still betray Frodo, and for sure, Frodo would have died and the quest would have failed. Because remember it is Smeagol, not Gollum, who had some sort of respect and fear for Frodo. Gollum only wanted the ring (remember the great inner debate?) It was Smeagol, not Gollum who made the promise to Frodo. It was a case o schizophrenia (Much like John Forbes Nash???) the worse kind.


----------



## YayGollum (Apr 23, 2002)

In the end, he was a hero, not a lost soul. Yay Gollum (or Smeagol)! I just say Gollum because it doesn't take as long to type.  Yay shadowfax_g! Boo Sam!


----------



## Greenwood (Apr 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by shadowfax_g _
> *I think, if Flodo and Gollum were alone and Sam wasn't there, Gollum would become more friendly to Frodo and he would not lead Frodo to the trap. Sam's strong hatered against Gollum (I don't know why, it's unfairely extreem), had driven him to an evil deed (I mean, to Shelob). *



Frodo alone, without Sam, never could have captured Gollum and tamed him in the first place; Gollum would have killed Frodo. You are right that at one point Gollum was on the edge of reform when Gollum snapped at hime and the moment was lost. In one of his letters Tolkien calls this the most tragic moment in all the books. Tolkien also says that even if Gollum had repented at that moment his lust for the Ring still would have driven him to get it back from Frodo before the end. Tolkien envisioned a possible scenario where Gollum would have jumped into the Cracks of Doom to keep the Ring for himself and deny it to Sauron. If that had happened Gollum would have had some claim to doing a heroic deed, even though his reasons would have been mixed, but falling in because he is clumsy is a different thing entirely.


----------



## Xanaphia (Apr 23, 2002)

Just a thought, but maybe it was Smeagle who made the promise and then Gollum broke it. Or maybe he just didn't realize he was breaking it. I do think he somewhat broke the promise, but I don't want to be mean to Gollum.


----------



## Dhôn-Buri-Dhôn (Apr 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Xanaphia _
> *Just a thought, but maybe it was Smeagle who made the promise and then Gollum broke it. Or maybe he just didn't realize he was breaking it. I do think he somewhat broke the promise, but I don't want to be mean to Gollum. *


An interesting notion. I wonder...

If Smeagol were brought to trial for his betrayal of Frodo and Sam to Shelob, could he have mounted a successful defense on the grounds of mental illness (multiple personality disorder)? If you were Smeagol's defense attorney, how would you argue the case?


----------



## BelDain (Apr 23, 2002)

Didn't smeagol murder to get the ring in the first place?
He was a rascal before he ever came under the corruption of the One.


----------



## ILLOTRTM (Apr 23, 2002)

YayGollum- Do you call leading Frodo and Sam to Shelob being good? I think not! But I agree with Xanaphia (Gotta love that elven name!), It was "Stinker", as master Samwise so kindley put, who broke the Promise.
BelDain- That's not so. Smeagol couldn't help being overcome by greed for the ring. But wait! Isn't so that people with power are tempted by the ring? I doubt Smeagol had any power!


----------



## Persephone (Apr 23, 2002)

*Way to go Greenwood!*

Couldn't have said it better myself. 

We are all missing the point here, we should feel sorry for the stoor Smeagol, who, yes killed his brother Deagol to get the ring (which in my opinion was meant to happen because it was "fate" that intervened.) Deagol was fated to get the ring, but Smeagol was easier to corrupt, so the ring enticed Smeagol to murder his brother, and with that seed of wickedness in Smeagol, the ring can grow stronger. *Remember the Dark Lord created this ring and poured in it, his malice, his wickedness, his evil power.* It grows with hatred, deceit, wickedness, and malice. It needed someone like Smeagol for it to grow powerful again. So when Smeagol took the ring into the misty mountains, where the goblins dwell, for 500 years it grew in power, and so did Sauron.


----------



## shadowfax_g (Apr 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Greenwood _
> *
> 
> Frodo alone, without Sam, never could have captured Gollum and tamed him in the first place; Gollum would have killed Frodo. You are right that at one point Gollum was on the edge of reform when Gollum snapped at hime and the moment was lost. In one of his letters Tolkien calls this the most tragic moment in all the books. Tolkien also says that even if Gollum had repented at that moment his lust for the Ring still would have driven him to get it back from Frodo before the end. Tolkien envisioned a possible scenario where Gollum would have jumped into the Cracks of Doom to keep the Ring for himself and deny it to Sauron. If that had happened Gollum would have had some claim to doing a heroic deed, even though his reasons would have been mixed, but falling in because he is clumsy is a different thing entirely. *


Good reference as usual, Greenwood 

Yes, I admit that Frodo was not strong enough to cope with Gollum without Sam and could be killed at the first contact. But.. don't be too hard 
I just wanted to mention about the growing relationship between Frodo and Gollum (I am especially fond of the scene of the forbidden pool), it proves that Gollum still kept a bit of Sméagol's heart and it was even stirring by Frodo's mercy. But it was Sam who spoiled all at once. Very sad.


----------



## Persephone (Apr 24, 2002)

*Good point Shadowfax_g*

I know what you mean, and even I, considered by many to be strong of heart, felt stern pity and a genuine disappointment at what Sam did to Gollum before they entered Shelob's lair. Tolkien himself said in an interview that that scene was the most tragic in all the books. The scene where Gollum could have repented and turned a new leaf entirely, but didn't or was stopped by Sam's attitude toward him that day. He did not like Sam at all, oh no preciousss!

But he's just that, a pitiable victim of fate and circumstance.


----------



## LadyGaladriel (Apr 24, 2002)

Poor Smeagol. I felt so bad for him in the hobbit when He started crying after Bilbo jumped over him.


----------



## Persephone (Apr 24, 2002)

*I know what you mean, LadyGaladriel...*

When I was also reading that part, I felt like this Gollum character is such an unfortunate individual. Then when learned more about him in the other books, and in the indices, that's when i really felt so sorry for him.


----------



## YayGollum (Apr 24, 2002)

I know I wouldn't be Smeagol's defense attorney! This arguement could go on for forever because I will always say that Gollum is the hero because he destroyed the Ring, while these evil people will always say other stinky stuff. oh well. But then, to answer the question at the beginning, I feel sorry for him.


----------



## ILLOTRTM (Apr 24, 2002)

> I know I wouldn't be Smeagol's defense attorney! This arguement could go on for forever because I will always say that Gollum is the hero because he destroyed the Ring, while these evil people will always say other stinky stuff. oh well. But then, to answer the question at the beginning, I feel sorry for him.


Well said


----------



## shadowfax_g (Apr 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by LadyGaladriel _
> *Poor Smeagol. I felt so bad for him in the hobbit when He started crying after Bilbo jumped over him. *


Yeahhh!! Gollum played the riddles very fair way while Bilbo didn't! I, as a good young girl then, was rather surprised at that Bilbo did not give the Ring back to Gollum who said it was his and very precious.


----------



## Goldberry (Apr 24, 2002)

I always felt very bad for Smeagol. The first time I read the books I hoped he would repent. His life and end are very tragic. He plays the part fate (or in this case JRRT) gives him in the finding and destruction of the ring.

He is also one of the most interesting and fun characters, which makes me feel even worse for him.


----------



## Lindir (Apr 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by BelDain _
> *Didn't smeagol murder to get the ring in the first place?
> He was a rascal before he ever came under the corruption of the One. *


I'm with you on this one. Smeagol was never nice. Even if the Ring corrupted him the moment in surfaced from the Anduin, he doesn't exactly come across as a caring, warm individual before that. I should say that murder and betrayal was always in him, qualities only enhanced by the Ring.


> The ring had given him power according to his stature


 None of the others have tried killing of one another over this trifle that Sauron fancies.
Having said that, I am capable of feeling just a little sorry for him, at those rare moments when he displays regrets for what he has become, but he is no hero.


----------



## Oren (May 10, 2002)

I dont really feel bad for him.....right now atleast. I think he was horrible even before he had the ring. But I think that the fact that he was taken over by the power by the ring. I think once I have read the two towers I might feel a little bit better about him. Atleast my friend Told me I would


----------



## YayGollum (May 10, 2002)

Argh! I thought this was over with! oh well. Lindir, how much is said of Smeagol before he is under the influence of the Ring? Like, nothing! Yes, he was the hero. Noone else could have destroyed the Ring. Sam, I'm sure you'll like Gollum when you see how great he is at the end.


----------



## wonko (May 10, 2002)

don't know what you guys are arguing about but i feel bad for him and im even on the border of liking him... there must be about a billion posts about his


----------



## wonko (May 10, 2002)

don't know what you guys are arguing about but i feel bad for him and im even on the border of liking him... there must be about a billion posts about this gollum cat... oh, i see what you guys are arguing... i think gollum only killed deagol because of the lust inspired by seeing the ring


----------



## YayGollum (May 10, 2002)

Thank you, wonko! Yay for people on the verge of liking Gollum!


----------



## Oren (May 21, 2002)

Yup u are a giant Marshmellow.......


----------



## YayGollum (May 22, 2002)

Yay giant marshmallows! Maybe that should be the name of all Gollum Fans.


----------



## Oren (May 22, 2002)

Well..........i guess you have changed my mind. Now that I think about it I guess I could feel a little sorry 4 him.... ya ok I guess he's kinda cool!


----------



## YayGollum (May 23, 2002)

Yay! Another giant marshmallow! And it's a Sam, too! Scary!


----------



## Oren (May 26, 2002)

Ya I have been finishing TTT so now I think that Gollum is pretty cool. Yay me I am a giant marshmellow.


----------



## Gary Gamgee (May 26, 2002)

I'm with I-feel-sorry-for-Gollum/but-I-don't-know-if-he's-a-hero camp. He especially inspired pity in me just after losing the ring and he is going up the cave with Bilbo behind, the moment where he realises it's truly gone and falls down and weeps. That gets to me*sobs*

But the whole Mount Doom bit and it being accidental and everything I thought could have done better. Gollum should have jumped into mount doom with the ring, then he truly would have been a hero. And if it was done at Frodo's bidding, then he too could have been redeemed.


----------



## ILLOTRTM (May 26, 2002)

I guess we're on about the same page, GG, if you know what I mean. Except, the thing is, Gollum promised, and swore by the Precious (As I now do when making a serious promise), that he would be very, very good. Uummmm.... leading them to Shelob with those intentions is not what I call good. Lemme just see if anyone agrees with/understands me, here?


----------



## Oren (May 27, 2002)

Yes I agree with u, and I get it. I dont like totally that he is all good or all bad. Ya so i could say that i could agree with u.


----------



## Elu Thingol (May 28, 2002)

Gollum just has a case of the Dr. Jekel Mr.Hyde complex. To bad he never got over it.


----------



## ILLOTRTM (May 28, 2002)

lol, couldn't have said it better!


----------



## LadyGaladriel (Jun 20, 2002)

> Didn't smeagol murder to get the ring in the first place?



Some people become under the control before even seeing it (sauraman) others after seeing it become mad with desire and longing and they turn from the path (Boromir.)


----------



## Bilbo Baggins57 (Jun 22, 2002)

Hey Shadow fax, I don't think Sam's "hatred" of gollum was unfair. Sam had plenty of reasons 2 be suspicious of him. And Yay I respect your opinion but I don't agree w/ u. Just because someone unintentionally does something good while trying 2 get away w/ something else, I don't think it makes them a hero. Besides, look at all the bad things gollum had done before that.


----------



## YayGollum (Jun 22, 2002)

Oh. Well, I do think that it made him a hero. Who else saved the day but Gollum?


----------

