# Cataclysms of the earth



## greypilgrim (Dec 27, 2007)

Cataclysms of the earth; or The HAB Theory

By greypilgrim

Introduction
I picked up a book called The HAB Theory in the late 1990's and since have thought about it periodically, more often recently, but never really deeply researched it. It's a work of fiction based on and inspired by a scientific theory named Cataclysms of the Earth (formulated by Hugh Auchincloss Brown) originating in 1967. The HAB Theory was inspired by (Cataclysms), and written by Allan W. Eckert in 1976. Some called the work prophetic. Indeed, a cult-like fringe element could be believed to exist because of it. I am not a scientist. I looked at Cataclysms of the Earth. It involves alot of scientific mumbo-jumbo..about as much as you or I or anybody could understand (much like any theory concerning the present state of the world). The thing I find most fascinating about the HAB theory and my reason for creating this thread (besides generating interest for discussion), is that it delves very deeply into the "ancient world" - what I like to call it. "Pre-history" is another term. I am enamoured of it.

There are spoilers ahead so if you want to read the book skip ahead for now.

An overview:

The HAB Theory, in a nutshell, says the Earth capsizes periodically due to the accumulation of ice near the poles. Warm, water-filled air from near the equator is carried by normal and persistent currents to the poles, where the moisture falls as snow and ice. It never gets warm enough at the poles for much of the ice to melt, thus the polar ice caps grow. The weight of the water added to the ice caps is huge. Antarctica grows by almost eighty-five billion tons of ice every month, far more than is sloughed off from the edges in an entire year. The ice is not evenly distributed around the Earth's axis of spin. Over time the off-center weight of the ice causes the Earth to capsize.

The engineer who developed the theory thought it was interesting but unlikely to be true. He spent decades trying to disprove the theory but only found evidence supporting the theory. Working backward from the present he identified at least nine previous Earth capsizes. The shortest period between capsizes (cataclysms) was about 3,000 years; the longest was about 7,000 years. When a capsize occurs the entire "pole shift" only takes three to four hours. Polar ice moves close to the equator and begins melting. Tropical regions move close to the poles and quickly freeze. There are floods, high winds, and much of the Earth's surface is violently restructured. Mountain ranges are thrust upward, oceans are redistributed, and continents are reshaped. The climactic and geographical chaos destroys existing civilizations and most life on the planet. Then the slow process of building civilizations and growing ice caps begins again. 

The author of The HAB Theory, Allan W Eckert, was himself convinced of it. He pledged himself to address and correct two important things that were wrong with it, in his opinion. In a 1998 letter, explains why he wrote the book:



Allan W. Eckert said:


> "I undertook writing THE HAB THEORY with the thought paramount in mind of writing a "novel-as-vehicle" in an effort to bring some sort of awareness into focus in the populace to the awesome degree of an impending catastrophe insofar as humanity is concerned; secondarily it was written in an effort to point out the scientific self-defeatism that was in existence -- and growing -- through the pursuit of such intense specialization in various scientific fields that the scientists were developing a rather dangerous form of tunnel vision in which only the individual scientist's specific field of interest consumed him and he did not weigh it well enough in its relationship to other fields of scientific endeavor and, as a result, could not grasp the whole picture, as it were. This was the basis for the "scientific clearing house" theme that evolved in the book. Finally, entertainment, pure and simple, was another of the factors, because here was the making of a tale that could be exciting and, as well as elucidary, intensely intriguing."
> 
> http://www.habtheory.com/1/ltr1.php



---> _I should just go ahead and make another note now because;_ a) My recent participation in another thread about Global Warming got me a warning, and b) I don't want this thread to be viewed by anyone as some form of spite or retribution; and c) I need to address Global Warming to set the stage for my presentation.

If you have stuck with me thus far, allow me to explain my intent. 

Due to the recent "Global Warming" phenomenon taking place in this world, I think people may be more receptive to at least looking into the HAB theory and considering what it might mean. Many strange things are happening in the world at present. Conferences concerning global warming are being held by every type imaginable, from lawmakers at the UN to big-time oil companies in every corner of the world, politicians, voter groups, and educational systems. Science is split on the issue of our climate. All of this mirrors directly to this book in form. THESE EXACT SAME EVENTS WERE TAKE PLACE IN THE HAB THEORY - INDEED ARE PLAYING OUT MUCH THE SAME AS PUT FORTH MORE THAN THIRTY YEARS AGO. HENCE MENTIONING G.W. IN THIS THREAD. SIMILAR PHENOMENON (a global catastrophe and man's attempt to stop it). 

If the sound of this HAB Theory strikes your fancy, I implore you to look it up. If any of you are familiar with the theory, please chime in...maybe this is the time to start to think about it again. Even if you just want to call me a loon, that's alright - go ahead! Promise, I won't care in the slightest.  I have given the original HAB Theory books another inspection recently to test its claims(easier to do with the internets), and would like to engage in discussion and intense specualtion!


----------



## greypilgrim (Dec 27, 2007)

(Reserved)


----------



## greypilgrim (Dec 27, 2007)

Who was Hugh Auchinloss Brown?

Hugh Auchincloss Brown had a long and distinguished career as an engineer, inventor and businessman. He spent most of his life searching for scientific evidence that would prove his theory wrong. Everything he found reinforced it. 

His writing style is from another time, and probably wasn't all that good even then. He tends to write his opinions as statements of fact, rather than the more correct form of stating his conclusions as opinions. Perhaps you can forgive an old man those transgressions of writing style, by remembering that he did believe that everything he wrote was fact.

Hugh Auchincloss Brown was 91 when this book was published.

Cataclysms Of The Earth, By H.A.B.:


> http://www.habtheory.com/3/thebook.htm



Excerpts:



> "We are all aware that our earth is constantly changing. By the roadside or in the mountains we notice the layers of rocks, or strata, displaced from their original horizontal plane, and recognize the evidence of the shifting of the earth's so-called crust In the cross sections of canyons we note the succession of layers-the permanent markings made by rock formation in earlier epochs. We uncover animal and plant fossils and by their depth and placement can construct a chronology of prehistoric life. The movement of the rivers carving out new beds and the pounding of the oceans on their shores all remind us of the endless motion of the land and seas.
> 
> These, however, are but the surface phenomena of the evolution of our globe. Barely do we speculate on the forces constantly reforming the planet as a whole; rarely do we speculate on the nature and the effects of major upheavals and cataclysms that, on a larger scale, have characterized the history of the earth. We are all aware of the great stone book that is our earth, but rarely do we read its pages. The origin of our planet remains a mystery; of its life history, inscribed upon itself, only minutiae are fully known to man."





> "The enormous size of the South Pole Ice Cap is difficult to grasp. Were it centered in United States with the South Pole in North Dakota, its area would extend to the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans, to Mexico on the South and to the northern extremity of Canada on the North. The ice would stand two miles high at North Dakota, and icebergs would flow off into both oceans on a slope of about seven feet per mile. It would take one thousand four hundred cakes of ice the size of Lake Superior, with an area of almost 32,000 square miles, to equal the ice mass now accumulated on the Antarctic continent!"





> The ancient Hindus, Chaldeans, and the Jews all have records indicating that a great deluge occurred slightly more than 5,000 years ago.
> 
> Cuvier refers, without identification, to an ancient Brahman collection of Indo-European prose which had a recurrent flood theory.
> 
> ...





> *Fossils*​
> 
> "ABOUT a century and a half ago Georges Cuvier wrote: "It is to fossils that we owe the discovery of the true theory of the earth; without them, we should not have dreamed, perhaps, that the globe was formed at successive epochs, and by a series of different operations. They alone, in short, tell us with certainty that the globe has not always had the same envelope; we cannot resist the conviction that they must have lived on the surface of the earth before being buried in its depths; if we had only unfossiliferous rocks to examine, no one could maintain that the earth was not formed all at once."



(Continued...)


----------



## Gothmog (Dec 27, 2007)

greypilgrim said:


> ---> _I should just go ahead and make another note now because;_ a) My recent participation in another thread about Global Warming got me a warning, and b) I don't want this thread to be viewed by anyone as some form of spite or retribution; and c) I need to address Global Warming to set the stage for my presentation.



I just wish to point out that it was not your 'Participation in another thread about Global Warming' that got you a warning but something in particular that you put into one of your posts.

As for your (b) who would you expect to see this thread as some form of 'spite or retribution'? Judging by the opening post it is a well thought out and potentially very interesting thread.


----------



## greypilgrim (Dec 27, 2007)

(Cont.)


> "There is, today, among scientists complete agreement with Cuvier. Drillings to a depth of four miles have disclosed the earth's envelopes, now called strata, and each provides us with a record of the epoch during which it was created." ... "There are great differences in the fossil markings on rocks. The sharp, delicate, shell like craters of raindrop splashes could not have been preserved except by quick freeze; the mud of unfrozen splashes soon oozes back and become pockmarks. Jellyfish entombed in mud and frogs could not have been preserved except by quick freeze; else they soon would have rotted."



"Quick-freeze" is a term used to describe an effect of a Cataclysm. Suddenly and violently, tropical parts of the world, according to the HAB Theory, are shifted to the poles, and vice-versa as the former "North" and "South" poles are now located at the equator...the new equator established after the "capsizing" is complete. 

My question was, and still is because I cannot find an answer (yet): Wouldn't the climate shift along with the poles?

In reading the books, The HAB THEORY and Cataclysms Of The Earth, for every claim used to support the theory, the authors provide solid, irrefutable evidence directly supporting the theory's claims. Facts supported by history and every branch of science referenced. I'm sure if I look, I will find they have given answers for that quetion.

Edit-->I'm checking on that now, LOL


----------



## greypilgrim (Dec 27, 2007)

Gothmog said:


> I just wish to point out that it was not your 'Participation in another thread about Global Warming' that got you a warning but something in particular that you put into one of your posts.
> 
> As for your (b) who would you expect to see this thread as some form of 'spite or retribution'? Judging by the opening post it is a well thought out and potentially very interesting thread.



Greetings Gothmog!

It has been well understood and agreed both publicly and in private messages the nature of my warnings at the TTF...

Thank you for the compliment! I took much time and with careful consideration chose the most eloquent writing style I could muster in making my introductory posts. I genuinely am interested in this theory!


----------



## Gothmog (Dec 27, 2007)

And you have piqued my interest for which I thank you. I will look further into this matter myself.


----------



## greypilgrim (Dec 27, 2007)

> *Fossils*​
> (Continued...)
> 
> "A so called mammoth tree, with fruit and leaves still on it, was discovered and reported after a landslide of Siberian tundra. Such cold storage of fruit 7,000 years old can only be explained by a sudden transportation of the fruit from a warm climate in which it grew to the cold storage climate in which it has been refrigerated. This specimen of fruit, with leaves, and many other specimens of leaves reported found in Siberia also confirm the careen of the globe."





> "Footprints and tracks of animals, reptiles, and crustacea, that were made many thousands of years ago in various muds and wet sands, have been discovered and are now preserved in museums in the form of rock specimens. Raindrop splashes in the then soft, oozy mud have been discovered in numerous specimens of stone.
> 
> Where the evidence of a tropical climate surrounds frozen mud sculptures the sudden freezing can only be accounted for by an assumed careening of the earth which brought the mud into a different climate. The prompt solidification of the mud by freezing, when moved quickly from a tropical or temperate climate into a frigid climate, clearly accounts for these remarkable phenomena."





> "An exhibit at the American Museum of Natural History showing a similar group of skeletons of prehistoric animals, all piled together like offal at a slaughterhouse, can be explained most rationally by the deluge caused by a careen of the globe. Those animals evidently came to their death by cataclysmic mass drownings. Their bodies probably settled in an eddy, or at an obstruction, or in a deep hole at the bottom of the transient flood waters, where they were covered by dirt and debris. Quick freezing may also have retarded their disintegration.
> 
> The careening of the globe, with concurrent great deluges, is confirmed by such discoveries of massed skeletons of contemporaneous animals piled together. Similar burial grounds containing contemporaneous fish skeletons will be discussed later.
> 
> Petrified oysters, clams, crabs, and starfish were found at depths of several hundred feet during the digging of the Panama Canal. They were all perfectly preserved but had turned to stone. Some of the species do not thrive in the tropics, indicating that what is now Panama was at one time located in a temperate zone..."



Under the archeology and fossils section, Mr Browns provides similar evidences of human artifacts, animals, plants, and fish found in parts of the world they are known to be alien, non native species. In addition to being foreign to those parts of the world they were found in, in every instance the artifacts and fossils HAB studied also provided evidence for a careening of the globe. Furthermore, he uses his theory describing these phenomena to explain unknown phenoms within the archeological and scientific community, _as well as pointing to his theory to support other evidences of a careening of the globe_

This theory EXPLAINS ALOT OF MYSTERIES. Like the presence of a buried civilization, or an entire fossilized forest buried under a mountain, or the birth of the Niagra River.


----------



## greypilgrim (Dec 28, 2007)

As I said earlier, I'm no scientist. I'm neither an archaologist, palaeontologist, or weatherman. Hence, the reader could ask; "What do you know?" I would say; "I know about as much about the HAB Theory as you." and then ask for your opinion. I can only open the door to the HAB Theory. Stepping in, the observant person is immediately confronted with descriptions of historical encounters from many different fields of human endeavor: Archaeology, is major among them, much expected indeed as Mr. Brown who formulated the original Cataclysms of the Earth Theory studied archaeology all his life. 

So, I learned a long time ago to learn as much as I can from people who know what they are talking about, and observe with interest the workings of their endeavors. Take nuclear bombs for example. In studying their history you learn who was involved in the birth of the technology. Einstein. Eppenheimer. You learn how they make the nuclear bomb work...the components involved, results of tests, and from observing the work involved we see exactly how perfect the technology is, without grasping the exactness of every detail. That's all the work of _the scientists_. We are just observers of the creation, understanding but not knowing, knowing but not understanding. I ask the reader to approach the HAB Theory much in kind: Accept it for what it is, observe, investigate, then come to your own conclusions.


----------



## greypilgrim (Dec 28, 2007)

* CURRENT EVIDENCE SUPPORTING THE HAB THEORY*​
In "digging" (pun intended) for relative information tonight (please excuse my excessive posts and bear with me. I'm in hibernation, and have not much more holding my interest at present.), I found the Archaeological Institute of America's home. I will post relative articles in my next post:

http://www.archaeology.org/

With my limited experience working in fields of all things scientific, I am forced into one mode and one mode of research only: Searching for credited, established, irrefutable information either supporting or refuting the HAB Theory. As such, my conclusions can only be based on coincidence, speculation, and the theory of Hugh Archincloss Brown. I must trust what the experts tell me during my quest, regarding the specific piece of information being either supported or denied by the reaserch. This is easy. Historical facts, supported by current research as well as ancient records, have all the data we need. Mr. Brown did the research, collected the physical evidence, collected the established facts of history, and formulated his theory. I would like to state: The work of Hugh A. Brown was never finished when he died - it had only just begun. This is apparent to the observer readily: Not much available evidence refutes the evidence provided, but the entire concept, as whole, cannot be fully understood unless a "scientific clearing house" is enacted. Allan W. Eckert was aware of the need for a collusion of science. He site it as one major reason for undertaking his work. He wrote much about it. The divided, competetive relationship existing between different branches of the sciences disturbed him greatly, as well as it did Hugh A. Brown. We the observer can trust the claims of Hugh A Brown indefinately: The evidence (for previous Cataclysms) is irrefutable - but it makes sense only when the observer considers the theory in its entirey - and understands the very reason what he is researching in the first place. 

Hugh Brown did extensive travelling in his life, documenting his findings. Allan Eckert states: 



> "Unfortunately, however skilled he (Hugh Auchincloss Brown) might have been in his vocation and avocation, he was not a skilled writer; his material was rather poorly written and presented in a disorganized manner and his manuscript was rejected by all the major book publishers, forcing him, at last, to turn to a less prominent publisher of the time, Twayne Publishers. The book was published in 1967, but sold only a relatively few copies."
> 
> 
> "By this time it was mid-1973 and, decidedly convinced of the theory's strength and validity, I had decided to put all this material together into a book -- a more popular book than Brown had written and one that would reach a much greater audience; ergo, a novel. When I proposed this to my then publisher, Little, Brown & Co. in Boston, they at first balked strongly and it was only after persisting in my arguments and finally coming near threatening to leave Little, Brown and go to another publisher that they agreed to contract for the book, but they certainly were not happy about it."



I highly recommend finding a copy of The HAB Theory; Allan W. Eckert (1976) as an introductory companion to the Cataclysms of the Earth Theory:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0595008208/

(Continued...)


----------



## greypilgrim (Dec 28, 2007)

"A Palaeolithic work of Art: http://www.archaeology.org/0209/newsbriefs/palaeo.html







> "Scientists are heralding the discovery of a remarkably naturalistic 20,000-year-old bison figurine found at the Upper Palaeolithic site of Zaraysk, 100 miles southeast from Moscow.
> 
> The figurine, four inches high and carved from mammoth ivory, was found on a specially built podium at the bottom of a small storage pit. The site has been excavated by the Institute of Archaeology of the Russian Academy of Sciences since 1995.
> 
> The figurine has a length-to-width ratio of 1.6:1, which perfectly coincides with that of an adult bison, and its beard and mane were carefully engraved. The bison's left legs had been broken off before it was put in the pit, and traces of red ocher and black pigment still remain on its surface." (2002, Archaological Institute of America)



I'm deciding to use this as my first piece of reasearch, as an example, to draw a conclusion based on fact, either directly supporting or directly refuting the HAB Theory. This discovery being 20,000 years old, would have seen at least two previous epochs, and as many as 6 previous epochs (epoch = the time between careenings of the globe). 

Authors note: I will admit readily: I am convinced this theory at least is valid. I'm not sure if our very civilization is threatened. The observant one must conclude; Our earth's history is recorded within the very earth istself. Mr Brown believed he found the true history of the time before history was recoded. He felt our time was running out in light of what he discovered. Remember, it has been stated Mr. Brown set out to find evidence disproving his own theory, but was unable to do so. Mr Brown and Allan Eckert both provide evidence in their works suggesting that in discovering man's first known civilizations (Sumerian, Egyptian) _the civilizations appeared to be in a state of continuing decline_ as their histories were revealed and their civilizations re-mantled in bits and pieces from the beginning of (recorded) time. This would support the HAB Theory because without it being valid, the findings would suggest otherwise, that the Sumerians and Egyptians civilization would have first appeared to the world to be in a _state of progress leading to an eventual decline._ He also gives evidence supporting his claim that they were remnants of previous civilizations. He died before his work was completed, so whether or not this is even possible remains to be answered. 

I'll try to connect the dots tomorrow, it's getting late here.


----------



## greypilgrim (Dec 28, 2007)

RE: CURRENT EVIDENCE SUPPORTING THE HAB THEORY

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_geocentrism



> The consensus of scientists today is that:
> 
> - there is no center or otherwise special position in the universe,
> 
> ...


----------



## greypilgrim (Dec 28, 2007)

greypilgrim said:


> "A Palaeolithic work of Art: http://www.archaeology.org/0209/newsbriefs/palaeo.html
> 
> 
> 
> ...



After several hours of pondering intensely, I decided how I will go about my initial approach at reasearching this artifact, I realized the following needs to be addressed first and foremost in this investigation I am about to embark upon. Before I can even begin my work: The Question of Establishing Criteria for either proof or refutation of the HAB Theory (ie: I need to know what to look for) need to be addressed. Before I start my investigation, I already need to start doing seperate research! 

The first question that came to my mind is: Was this artifact actually carved 20,000 years ago? Or, is the material used just that old? 

I found an additional interest that has arisen in approaching my research thusly: Seperate from establishing whether or not the artifact in question has in fact seen previous epochs during it's 20,000 year existance; the additional idea is:

1. To further investigate for validity the possibility of our first recorded civilizations _appearing in a state of continuing decline_ as Mr Brown and Mr Eckert believed; 

2. To learn how Brown and Eckert came to that conclusion. 

3. Investigating this archaeological dig for other findings related tovalidating or refuting the HAB Theory. Why not, I'm already trying to establish communication with the achaeologists from this source...might as well get all the information I can from my research!


----------



## greypilgrim (Dec 29, 2007)

A poem HAB wrote. I like it because it gives me ideas about the direction to take in my research and also provides insight to the proper questions to seek answers to. Also you get a sense reading it of the deep understanding, or of the strong belief of H.A.B. This man was surely convinced! I'd like to state, that the HAB Theory author, Allan W. Eckert is still convinced of the theory. In his letter linked to in post #1, he says:



> "Now, after a period of nearly a quarter-century has passed since the book was first published, do I still believe in the validity of the "HAB" theory? Most assuredly I do. Am I concerned about another capsizing of the earth coming along and wiping out most of humanity? Well, I think at one time I was, to some degree, but I am not any longer. In my 68th year, I am no longer much interested in undertaking projects that involve devoted crusading."
> 
> Allan W. Eckert, 1998



Here is the poem:




The Earth Is a Great Stone Book 

Each single layer of earth 

Tells a story that's all its own; 

The sands of the ancient beaches 

Have changed into strata of stone. 

The growths of corals and sea shells 

Made limestones, marbles, and shales; 

While animals, trees, and vegetable growths 

Made rocks which also tell their tales. 

Each stratum of earth was created 

During one of the epochs of time; 

Remains of life growths are now embedded 

In rocks that were once dirt and slime. 

The limestone strata of Himalaya 

Grew in ocean waters' shoal; 

The glacial markings in tropical lands 

Are the epoch's ice cap scroll. 

Siberian mammoths were buried alive, 

Interrupting their tropic stroll; 

And a tropical land of the previous age 

Now lies ice embalmed at the Pole. 

For the earth is a great stone book 

With strata of stone for pages; 

In which we'll find if we look 

The living record of ancient ages.​


----------



## greypilgrim (Dec 30, 2007)

RE: RESEARCH



> (At the site): Four stages of settlement have been identified, ranging from 15 000 - 17 000 BP to 22 000 - 23 000 BP.
> 
> The evidence of _the first phase occupancy was the least well preserved, since they were modified by later constructions and by permafrost._ It is possible to determine, however, that there was a well structured settlement, and in particular there was a line of storage holes around one site in which were found mammoth bones and a statuette of a bison, shown left.



This interesting bit of information on the dig site producing the bison artifact provides indirect support of the HAB Theory: 

- We learn that some land area 100 miles southeast of present day Moscow was inhabited by bison hunting-people. Artifacts found place them in that region for about 8,000 years. 

- We learn up to 4 different previous settlements existed in the area (presumably the same people), 

- Evidence found showing signs of a progressive culture. Quite intesting people I have discovered, they dug their dwellings in pits.

- Then, sometime between 15 000 -17 000 years ago, poof, they vanish. 

- We learn the earth in that region was once affected by Permafrost, which then went away. Permafrost takes 1-2 years to form. This is consistent with the HAB Theory: This does not prove anything, only offers support in the form of factual suggestion. 

- Searching for reason for appearance of Permafrost in the region at this time. 

The authors state: 



> At suitable places in the digs, vertical walls were left so that the stratigraphy could be further investigated and correlated with the finds. This significantly complicated the efforts of the researchers in the field, but significantly increased the quality of the finds.
> 
> By studying the permafrost cracks which damaged the cultural layers, _the sequence of events as the ice advanced and retreated was determined, with evidence of habitation disappearing with the ice, and reappearing in slightly warmer times._
> 
> http://donsmaps.com/zaraysk.html



Still trying to establish correspondence with the archaeologists Lev and Amirkhanov.


----------



## greypilgrim (Dec 30, 2007)

RE: RESEARCH



> In the present geologic epoch, called the Pleistocene
> (of the Quaternary Period and Cenozoic Era), which,
> in essence, takes in the past one million years, many
> hundreds of capsizings have occurred. A partial
> ...



The questions arise; 

In which Epoch did these bison hunters inhabit the region?

For how long was the region Permafrosted? 

There is no known record:



> It is an acknowledged fact among historians that the
> authentic and accurate history of man did not begin
> until between approximately 7,000 and 7,500 years ago.
> Actual historical records go back only as far as the
> ...


----------



## greypilgrim (Dec 30, 2007)

RE: CURRENT EVIDENCE SUPPORTING THE HAB THEORY

THE ATLANTIS BLUEPRINT, ALBERT EINSTEIN & CHARLES HAPGOOD

Charles H. Hapgood (1904-1982) was an American academician, and one of the best known advocates of a Pole shift theory. Hapgood received a master's degree from Harvard University in 1932 in medieval and modern History. His Ph.D. work on the French Revolution was interrupted by the Great Depression. He taught for a year in Vermont, directed a community center in Provincetown, and served as the Executive Secretary of Franklin Roosevelt's Crafts Commission. During World War II, Hapgood worked for the COI (which later became the Office of Strategic Services (OSS) and the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA)), then for the Red Cross, and finally served as a liaison officer between the White House and the Office of the Secretary of the War.

After World War II, Hapgood taught history at Springfield College in Springfield, Massachusetts. A student question one day about the Lost Continent of Mu led to a class project to investigate Atlantis. This led to an investigation of possible ways that massive earth changes could occur, including the sensationalistic theories of Hugh Auchincloss Brown.

In 1958 Hapgood published his first book, The Earth's Shifting Crust. The Foreword to this was written by Albert Einstein, shortly before his death in 1955. In this book, and two successive books, Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings (1966) and The Path of the Pole (1970), Hapgood proposed the radical theory that the Earth's axis has shifted numerous times during geological history. This theory is not widely accepted by orthodox geologists.

Hapgood's protege, Rand Flem-Ath, who engaged in an extended correspondence with Hapgood, greatly expanded Hapgood's work and developed his own theories in the 1995 book, When the Sky Fell.

Hapgood's Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings used numerous archival maps, including the Piri Reis Map, which he claims show a vast southern continent roughly similar to Antarctica in shape, to propose that a 15 degree pole shift occurred around 9,600 B.C. (aprox. 11.600 years ago), and that a part of the Antarctic was ice-free at that time. By implication an ice-age civilization could have mapped the coast at that point in time. In 1976, Allan W. Eckert used Hapgood's theory as the basis of a novel: "The HAB Theory".

http://www.answers.com/topic/charles-hapgood



-----------------------------------------------


THE EINSTEIN-HAPGOOD PAPERS

Albert Einstein wrote about Charles Hapgood's theory of earth crust displacement in a letter (14 January 1954) to William Farrington of the Department of Geology and Minerology at the University of Massachusetts. 
I obtained this letter from the John Simon Guggenheim Memorial Foundation in July 1995. The then Vice President G. Thomas Tanselle was kind enough to send it along with Einstein's "Confidential Report on Candidate for Fellowship" (strongly supporting Hapgood for a fellowship) dated 18 November 1954. 

I cannot post this letter as it is copyright protected by Albert Einstein's Archives, the John Simon Guggenheim Memorial Foundation and William Farrington. 

*Einstein's last line to Farrington, however, was perfectly clear to anyone:* 



ALBERT EINSTEIN said:


> "I think that the idea of Mr. Hapgood has to be taken quite seriously."
> Einstein-Hapgood Letters



EINSTEIN-HAPGOOD PAPERS, CONTINUED:

This correspondence is detailed in The Atlantis Blueprint:​
In his second reply (24 November 1952) to Hapgood, Einstein wrote that the idea of earth crust displacement should not be ruled out "apriori" just because it didn't fit with what we wanted to believe about the earth's past. What was needed, Einstein claimed, was solid "geological and paleontological facts." 

For six months, Hapgood gathered geological evidence to support the idea of an earth crust displacement. On the 3rd of May 1953 he forwarded thirty-eight pages of this evidence to Einstein. Central to his argument was Hapgood's evidence that Lesser Antarctica was ice-free at the same time that North America lay smothered in ice. Einstein responded (8 May 1953): 



ALBERT EINSTEIN said:


> "I find your arguments very impressive and have the impression that your hypothesis is correct. One can hardly doubt that significant shifts of the crust have taken place repeatedly and within a short time."


He urged Hapgood to follow up on evidence of "earth fractures". A month later 
(11 June 1953) Hapgood sent Einstein forty-two pages of evidence on earth fractures and the evolution of the ice sheets. 
Einstein wrote (17 December 1953) Hapgood urging him to address the "centrifugal momentum" problem. Hapgood responded with four pages on this problem and thirty-seven pages of "paleontological evidence" including the frozen mammoths of Arctic Siberia. Einstein was now convinced. On the 18th of May 1954, Einstein wrote a very favorable foreword for Hapgood's book EARTH'S SHIFTING CRUST: A KEY TO SOME BASIC PROBLEMS OF EARTH SCIENCE (published in 1958 by Pantheon Books, New York). The Foreword begins: 



ALBERT EINSTEIN said:


> "I frequently receive communications from people who wish to consult me concerning their unpublished ideas. It goes without saying that these ideas are very seldom possessed of scientific validity. The very first communication, however, that I received from Mr. Hapgood electrified me. His idea is original, of great simplicity, and - if it continues to prove itself of great importance to everything that is related to the history of the earth's surface. ... I think that this rather astonishing, even fascinating, idea deserves the serious attention of anyone who concerns himself with the theory of the earth's development."


Hapgood and Einstein continued to correspond and finally met in January of 1955. 
Einstein's last letter was dated the 9th of March 1955 just weeks before the great physicist died on the 18th of April 1955. 

Einstein's Archives are held in Jerusalem (with copies at Princeton) where they hold the record of an unique and unheralded collaboration on the theory of earth crust displacement. 

http://www.flem-ath.com/e-h.htm


----------



## Barliman Butterbur (Dec 30, 2007)

> The HAB Theory, in a nutshell, says the Earth capsizes periodically due to the accumulation of ice near the poles. Warm, water-filled air from near the equator is carried by normal and persistent currents to the poles, where the moisture falls as snow and ice. It never gets warm enough at the poles for much of the ice to melt, thus the polar ice caps grow. The weight of the water added to the ice caps is huge. Antarctica grows by almost eighty-five billion tons of ice every month, far more than is sloughed off from the edges in an entire year. The ice is not evenly distributed around the Earth's axis of spin. Over time the off-center weight of the ice causes the Earth to capsize.



In order for that to happen, there would have to be an exceedingly strong localized field of gravity _below_ the earth, in order to make it capsize: Mr. Hapgood sir, you're full of bosh and tosh. 

There have been, over the course of geologic time, magnetic axial shifts causing the "north" and "south" poles to seem to change positions, but never an actual physical "capsize" of the earth.

(I am always somewhat gobsmacked — despite being old enough to know better — when someone of pronounced intelligence pursues intellectual codswallop...  )

AND — look likely to see me rarely in this thread. It is not my intention to upset an apparently newly-established and well-meant applecart... 

Barley


----------



## Gothmog (Dec 30, 2007)

I have to jump in here (although I have only recently heard of this theory) to say:


> (I am always somewhat gobsmacked — despite being old enough to know better — when someone of pronounced intelligence pursues intellectual codswallop... )


Every Theory that is today accepted as 'The Best Available' was once (some not long ago) "intellectual codswallop" including Cilmate Change/Global Warming.

So rather than being gobsmacked I am much heartened that intelligent people are prepared to do so. It is our best chance to find the right course of action for the future.


----------



## Barliman Butterbur (Dec 31, 2007)

Gothmog said:


> Every Theory that is today accepted as 'The Best Available' was once (some not long ago) "intellectual codswallop" including Cilmate Change/Global Warming.
> 
> ...I am much heartened that intelligent people are prepared to do so. It is our best chance to find the right course of action for the future.



Okay, that got me. Here's a concept that's been bandied about for a good number of years (this appeared in today's news) that I find not only plausible, but intellectually stimulating and refreshing, not least because it's so over-the-top to the more staid among us:

*Stranger that fiction: parallel universes beguile science*

by Annie Hautefeuille
Sun Dec 30

Is the universe -- correction: "our" universe -- no more than a speck of cosmic dust amid an infinite number of parallel worlds?

A staple of mind-bending science fiction, the possibility of multiple universes has long intrigued hard-nosed physicists, mathematicians and cosmologists too.

We may not be able -- as least not yet -- to prove they exist, many serious scientists say, but there are plenty of reasons to think that parallel dimensions are more than figments of eggheaded imagination.

The specter of shadow worlds has been thrown into relief by the December release of "The Golden Compass," a Hollywood blockbuster adapted from the first volume of Philip Pullman's classic sci-fi trilogy, "His Dark Materials".

In the film, an orphaned girl living in an alternate universe goes on a quest, accompanied by an animal manifestation of her soul, to rescue kidnapped children and discover the secret of a contaminating dust said to be leaking from a parallel realm.

Talking bears and magic dust aside, the basic premise of Pullman's fantasy is not beyond the scientific pale.

"The idea of multiple universes is more than a fantastic invention -- it appears naturally within several scientific theories, and deserves to be taken seriously," said Aurelien Barrau, a French particle physicist at the European Organization for Nuclear Research (CERN), hardly a hotbed of flaky science.

"The multiverse is no longer a model, it is a consequence of our models," explained Barrau, who recently published an essay for CERN defending the concept.

There are several competing and overlapping theories about parallel universes, but the most basic is based on the simple, if mind-boggling, idea that if the universe is infinite then logically everything that could possibly occur has happened or will happen [or is happening right now].

Try this on for size: a copy of you living on a planet and in a solar system like ours is reading these words just as you are. Your lives have been carbon copies up to now, but maybe he or she will keep reading even if you don't, says Max Tegmark, a cosmologist at MIT in Boston, Massachusetts.

The existence of such a doppleganger "does not even assume speculative modern physics, merely that space is infinite and rather uniformly filled with matter as indicated by recent astronomical observations," Tegmark concluded in a study of parallel universes published by Cambridge University.

"Your alter ego is simply a prediction of the so-called concordance model of cosmology," he said.

Another type of multiverse arises with the theory of chaotic inflation, which tells us that all these parallel worlds are expanding so rapidly -- stretching further and further in to space -- that they remain out of reach even if one could travel at the speed of light forever.

Things get even stranger when one brings the often counter-intuitive laws of quantum physics into the picture, these experts say.

In a landmark paper published in 1957 while he was still a graduate student at Princeton University, mathematician Hugh Everett showed how quantum theory predicts that a single classical reality should gradually split into separate but simultaneously existing realms.

"This is simply a way of trusting strictly the fundamental equations of quantum mechanics," says Barrau. "The worlds are not spatially separated, but exist as kinds of 'parallel' universes."

The borderline between physics and metaphysics is not defined by whether an entity can be observed, but whether it is testable, pointed out Tegmark.

There are many phenomena -- black holes, curved space, the slowing of time at high speeds, even a round and rotating Earth -- that were once rejected as scientific heresy before being proven through experimentation, even if some remain beyond the grasp of observation, he said.

He concluded that it was becoming increasingly clear that multiverse models grounded in modern physics could be empirically testable, predictive and disprovable.

===============================

Barley


----------



## greypilgrim (Jan 1, 2008)

_"A model is a good model if it interprets a wide range of observations, in terms of a simple and elegant model. Second, if the model makes definate predictions that can be tested, and possibly falsified by observation."_
Positivist Philosophy
Karl Popper​
Greetings Barliman, Gothmog!

First, happy new year!  Thank you for your query! You both brought forth interesting aspects about this theory. I am very glad. I have the perfect opportunity to address the immediate point, the question of gravity must be addressed later. 



> Gothmog said:
> 
> 
> > Every Theory that is today accepted as 'The Best Available' was once (some not long ago) "intellectual codswallop" including Cilmate Change/Global Warming.
> ...



IF I am not mistaken,
the very person we can thank for (if not the creator of) the Multiple Universes theory himself was known for changing widely accepted beliefs, for defining incompaitable interactions, formulating explanations for the unthinkable.After working on the Big Bang Theory, he formulated a theory (or rather;theorized a formula) for Black Holes, based on and inspired by Albert Einstein's E=MC^2: 

S=c3 A/4 h G​
The equations were long and complex, and each represented a different branch of physics:

G for Gravity
c for (E=MC^2)
h for Quantum Physics
S for Thermodynamics

which, presented to the world, was tested, challenged, and finally (30 years later) refuted by none other than himself, giving birth to the Parallel Universe Theory. His name was Steven Hawking. 

Widely-Accepted Scientific beliefs get shattered all the time; the very nature of scientific study demands its own accepted truths to be challenged, tested, speculated upon. etc. Which brings me to my next point. In this vid, you see factual, photographic evidence of a growing earth, doubling in size in the last 60 million years. So why is this not an accepted theory? Makes one wonder how scientists convieniently ignore what whever doesn't agree with their widely accepted beliefs. Could it be because the so-called "authorities" of the laws of the universe don't like their own applecart being tipped? 



> "100 YEARS OF SCIENTIFIC THEORY OUT THE WINDOW"
> 
> 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjgidAICoQI
> 2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyvumTCh8Zk&feature=related



See Also: 


> THE STEVEN HAWKING PARADOX:
> 
> 1. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=111_1189480314
> 2: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ad4_1189480596
> ...


----------



## Barliman Butterbur (Jan 1, 2008)

It must be my age. At 71, I've become a pragmatist. These days, for instance, I'm more worried about the consequences of my overweight than I am about whether or not esoteric theories which, as far as I can tell at least, have no direct bearing on my life are true or not.

I give little credence to Mr. Hapgood's musings, because I suppose, as far as I can tell anyway, no one of any serious reputation apparently does either. In fact, in my whole life I've never seen it mentioned anywhere at all outside of GP's posts. 

There are many theories which are elegant; gorgeous in fact, _beautiful!_ They are so seductive that we _want_ them to be true, even if they're not. Much of the trouble comes in when, in our present state of knowledge/ignorance, their truth/untruth can't be determined one way or the other. (That's why I am a devout agnostic.) In the effort to actually prove/disprove such things, is when I reach for the Bromo Seltzer or the Beano.

I give more credence to the multiverse theory, mainly because it's so personally intriguing to me! It ties in with my basic take on humankind: _our brain/mind has it limits._ There may be intelligent entities "out there" who may be equipped to understand the real nature of these things. I think personally that we don't have right kind of equipment to come to the right answers on many of the questions we pose, for the same reason (as I've stated before a number of times in TTF) that a dog can't read the sports page: he simply isn't equipped for it. And our brain's physical construction gives rise to thoughts that are limited by the nature of our brains. That's my Waffle Iron Theory: no matter what ingredients go into the batter, they still come out bearing the stamp of the iron which produced them. And the waffle iron can do no better than this. 

I think our brains produce "wafflethoughts" that are by their nature incapable of grasping the truth of Reality. Many times, in our desperate need for things to "make sense," we connect dots that really have no legitimate connection. 

Other intelligences, should they exist, may be capable of understanding what we can't. Should they be able to examine us, they may find that our questions don't even apply: our limits prevent us from understanding or even _knowing_ about what we _need_ to know about in order to ask the right questions. Indeed, if we knew enough, we might even see that asking questions is itself a kind of _non sequitur._

So this New Year's Day I will spend it, as usual, with my wife at her father's house, along with the rest of her family, eating a traditional Japanese New Year's Day feast, looking in from time to time on the Rose Parade and the Rose Bowl game (watching Illinois hopefully slaughter u$¢), getting indigestion, possibly getting buzzed from downing too much _sake_, and reaching for the Bromo Seltzer. _That_ I can understand.

Barley


----------



## greypilgrim (Jan 3, 2008)

Barliman,

I could respond that post for a week...it's that thought provoking. I tend to be in agreement with you. Let me first address the gravity question. 

HAB states:



> As the prehistoric ice caps grew larger, they tended to throw the rotating planet off balance because of the wobble of the earth, causing the earth to roll around sideways to its direction of rotation.
> 
> Another analogy will make this clear. When you place a weight at the end of a string and then rotate the string in a circle, the weighted end of the string rises to a horizontal plane. Now, imagine yourself and the string as the earth, the weight at the end of the string as the weight of a growing ice cap, and imagine that, instead of intentionally swinging the weighted string, the rotational motion encompasses you, the string and the weight, as though you were standing on a rotating platform. In this depiction, then, your body represents both the present Axis of Spin and Axis of Figure of the earth. Your body does not move; the Axis of Spin remains the same. But your arm and the weighted string, here representing a radius of the earth, rise from the vertical (directed towards the pole) to the horizontal (directed towards the Equator). The sphere of which your arm and the weighted string are a radius is rolled sideways; the weight, representing the imbalance of an ice cap, rotates from a polar position to an equatorial position. The Axis of Figure, previously represented by your vertical arm, is now changed; the old Axis of Figure is now perpendicular to the Axis of Spin.
> 
> The rotating equilibrium thrown off balance by the weight of the growing ice caps, causes the spinning globe to roll over on its side. But such an event does not occur lightly. The oceans, like water in a bowl that is suddenly moved, are cast from their basins to flood the land. The winds, previously settled into patterns dependent upon a stable globe, are whipped asunder by the sudden shifting of the globe. The sudden meeting of warm and cold air creates great pressure zones that spawn new rains and hurricanes to sweep across the earth. The forces of nature, loosed from their equilibrium, rage wildly in search of a new equilibrium.


So you see, the earth is simply balancing itself on a new axis of figure, finding new equilibrium on its uneven axis of spin.


----------



## Barliman Butterbur (Jan 3, 2008)

greypilgrim said:


> ...Let me first address the gravity question...



***runs to the bathroom for the Bromo Seltzer***

Barley


----------



## greypilgrim (Jan 3, 2008)

Yep, it's alot to digest!


----------



## greypilgrim (Jan 3, 2008)

Flood Legends From Around The World​


> Some 270 flood stories have been recorded around the world. The literature discussing them is abundant. Their geographical distribution is not uniform, but is generally worldwide. They are most common in Asia, islands south of Asia, and the New World, being found from Tierra del Fuego to north of the Arctic Circle. They are more rare in Africa and Europe. Specific localities where they are especially noted include Egypt, Greece, Persia, Syria, Italy, Wales, Scandinavia, Russia, India, China, Mexico, Indonesia, New Guinea, Melanesia, Polynesia, Micronesia and Australia.
> 
> Many scholars testify to the fact that accounts of a deluge are essentially coexistent with nearly all of the human family. What is more significant is their unusual abundance. Even those who do not believe in a worldwide deluge acknowledge this. Albright speaks of the "extraordinary diffusion of deluge stories over the world."22 Gaster states: "Legends of a primeval deluge ... are a feature of almost all primitive mythologies";23 Woods states that these accounts "are remarkably frequent in the folklore of the ancient literature of peoples scattered over the greater part of the world";24 and Huggett, in his book on flood concepts, reflects the same when he comments: "It is exceedingly difficult to say just why so many ancient cultures should believe in cataclysms."
> 
> http://www.grisda.org/origins/17051.htm





“... there are many descriptions of the remarkable event [the Genesis Flood]. Some of these have come from Greek historians, some from the Babylonian records; others from the cuneiform tablets, and still others from the mythology and traditions of different nations, so that we may say that no event has occurred either in ancient or modern times about which there is better evidence or more numerous records, than this very one which is so beautifully but briefly described in the sacred Scriptures. It is one of the events which seems to be familiar to the most distant nations—in Australia, in India, in China, in Scandinavia, and in the various parts of America. It is true that many look upon the story as it is repeated in these distant regions, as either referring to local floods, or as the result of contact with civilized people, who have brought it from historic countries, and yet the similarity of the story is such as to make even this explanation unsatisfactory.” Stephen D. Peet, “The Story of the Deluge,” American Antiquarian, Vol. 27, No. 4, July–August 1905, p. 203.



> INCAN:
> 
> The people of South America tell myths of a Great Flood and the events surrounding it. The Ipurinas of northwestern Brazil retain one of the most elegant myths about the time of the disaster: "long ago the Earth was overwhelmed by a hot flood. This took place when the sun, a cauldron of boiling water, tipped over." Further south, the native people of Chile, the Araucanians, recount a traumatic memory: "The Flood was the result of a volcanic eruption accompanied by a violent earthquake, and whenever there is an earthquake the natives rush to the high mountains. They are afraid that after the earthquake the sea may again drown the world."
> 
> ...





> EGYPTIAN:
> 
> The word utchat, sometimes spelled udjat, refers to Egypt's sacred eye symbol. The right eye is called the Eye of Ra, symbolizing the sun. The left is called the Eye of Thoth, symbolizing the moon. Both eyes together are the Two Eyes Of Horus The Elder. The eye is the part of the body able to perceive light, and is therefore the symbol for spiritual ability.
> 
> ...



(Continued...)


----------



## greypilgrim (Jan 3, 2008)

> SUMERIAN, BABYLONIAN, HEBREW:
> 
> ZIUSUDRA:
> 
> ...



(Continued...)


----------



## greypilgrim (Jan 3, 2008)

(CONT....)


> GRECO-ROMAN:
> 
> Zeus decided to punish humanity for its evil ways. Other Gods grieved at the destruction because there would be no beings to worship them. Zeus promised a new stock, a race of miraculous origin. He was going to use thunderbolts when he remembered one of Fate's decrees: that a time would come when sea and earth and dome of the sky would blaze up, and the massive structure of the universe would collapse in ruins. With Poseidon's help, he caused storm and earthquake to flood every part of the land except the summit of Mount Parnassus. When Zeus crushed the hanging clouds in his hand, there was a loud crash, and sheets of rain fell from heaven. The rivers began rushing to the sea. When Neptune struck the earth with his trident, the rivers raced across the plains. Sea and earth could no longer be distinguished; all was sea without any shores, covering every living being except for one fortunate couple, Deucalion and Pyrrha. Earlier, Deucalion and Pyrrha had consulted Themis at her oracular shrine. She warned of a future flood, and they prepared by acquiring a boat. In time, their boat ran aground on the summit of Mount Parnassus. (Note: This is the mountain at Delphi, "navel of the earth" and home of the great oracle.)
> Recognizing their piety, Zeus allowed them to live and withdrew the waters. It was then that Deucalion and Pyrrha remembered the other oracle given by Themis: to repopulate the world by throwing "behind you the bones of your great mother." Pyrrha didn't want to injure her mother's ghost by disturbing her bones. Prometheus soothed her fears. "Oracles are righteous and never advise guilty action..." They decided that the "bones" were stones in the body of the earth ("Great Mother"). They threw the stones, which became humans; men of the stones thrown by Deucalion; women, of those cast by Pyrrha. Animals were produced by earth of its own volition. According to Plato: "Many great deluges have taken place during the nine thousand years."





> HINDU:
> Manu, the first human, saved a small fish from the jaws of a larger fish. After hearing the smaller one beg for protection, Manu kept the fish safe, transferring it to larger and larger containers as it grew, finally returning it to the ocean.
> Because of this kindness, the fish returned to warn Manu about an imminent flood and told him to build a boat, stocking it with samples of every species. After the flood waters rose, Manu tied a rope to the fish's horn. The fish led him to a mountain and told Manu to fasten the ship's rope to a tree so that it would not drift. He stayed on the mountain (known as Manu's Descent) while the flood swept away all living creatures. Manu alone survived.





> AZTEC:
> In the Valley of Mexico there lived a pious man named Tapi. Creator told him to build a boat to live in, to take his wife and a pair of every animal that existed. Neighbors thought he was crazy. As soon as he finished, it began to rain. The valley flooded; men and animals went to mountains, but they were submerged. The rain ended, waters receded, etc. Tapi realized that the flood waters had receded after having sent a dove that did not return. Tapi rejoiced.





> APACHE, NAVAJO, HOPI, CHIPPEWA:
> 
> CHIPPEWA:
> 
> ...


----------



## greypilgrim (Jan 3, 2008)

(CONT....)



> ISLAMIC:
> 
> Allah sent Noah to warn the people to serve none but Allah, but most of them would not listen. They challenged Noah to make good his threats and mocked him when, under Allah's inspiration, he built a ship. Allah told Noah not to speak to Him on behalf of wrongdoers; they would be drowned. In time, water gushed from underground and fell from the sky. Noah loaded onto his ship pairs of all kinds, his household, and those few who believed. One of Noah's sons didn't believe and said he would seek safety in the mountains. He was among the drowned. The ship sailed amid great waves. Allah commanded the earth to swallow the water and the sky to clear, and the ship came to rest on Al-Judi. Noah complained to Allah for taking his son. Allah admonished that the son was an evildoer and not of Noah's household, and Noah prayed for forgiveness. Allah told Noah to go with blessings on him and on some nations that will arise from those with him. [Koran 11:25]





> PERSIAN:
> 
> In early times, the earth was full of malign creatures fashioned by the evil Ahriman. The angel Tistar (the star Sirius) descended three times, in the form of man, horse, and bull respectively, causing ten days and nights of rain each time. Each rain drop became as big as a bowl, and the water rose the height of a man over the whole earth. The first flood drowned the creatures, but the dead noxious creatures went into holes in the earth. Before returning to cause the second flood, Tistar, in the form of a white horse, battled the demon Apaosha, who took the form of a black horse. Ormuzd blasted the demon with lightning, making the demon give a cry which can still be heard in thunderstorms, and Tistar prevailed and caused rivers to flow. The poison washed from the land by the second flood made the seas salty. The waters were driven to the ends of the earth by a great wind and became the sea Vourukasha ("Wide-Gulfed").





> AFRICA:
> 
> Cameroon:
> As a girl was grinding flour, a goat came to lick it. She first drove it away, but when it came back, she allowed it to lick as much as it could. In return for the kindness, the goat told her there will be a flood that day and advised her and her brother to run elsewhere immediately. They escaped with a few belongings and looked back to see water covering their village. After the flood, they lived on their own for many years, unable to find mates. The goat reappeared and said they could marry themselves, but they would have to put a hoe-handle and a clay pot with a broken bottom on their roof to signify that they are relatives.
> ...


----------



## greypilgrim (Jan 3, 2008)

> ASIA:
> 
> Altaic (central Asia):
> Tengys (Sea) was once lord over the earth. Nama, a good man, lived during his rule with three sons, Sozun-uul, Sar-uul, and Balyks. Ülgen commanded Nama to build an ark (kerep), but Nama's sight was failing, so he left the building to his sons. The ark was built on a mountain, and from it were hung eight 80-fathom cables with which to gauge water depth. Nama entered the ark with his family and the various animals and birds which had been driven there by the rising waters. Seven days later, the cables gave way from the earth, showing that the flood had risen 80 fathoms. Seven days later, Nama told his eldest son to open the window and look around, and the son saw only the summits of mountains. His father ordered him to look again later, and he saw only water and sky. At last the ark stopped in a group of eight mountains. On successive days, Nama released a raven, a crow, and a rook, none of which returned. On the fourth day, he sent out a dove, which returned with a birch twig and told why the other birds hadn't returned; they had found carcasses of a deer, dog, and horse respectively, and had stayed to feed on them. In anger, Nama cursed them to behave thus to the end of the world. When Nama became very old, his wife exhorted him to kill all the men and animals he had saved so that they, transferred to the other world, would be under his power. Nama didn't know what to do. Sozun-uul, who didn't dare to oppose his mother openly, told his father a story about seeing a blue-black cow devouring a human so only the legs were visible. Nama understood the fable and cleft his wife in two with his sword. Finally, Nama went to heaven, taking with him Sozun-uul and changing him into a constellation of five stars.
> ...



(Continued...)


----------



## Barliman Butterbur (Jan 3, 2008)

Come now GP, do you _really_ expect people to plow through all of that (Posts 23-30)? 

Here's another theory I like to believe is true because it's so elegant (and _much_ more fun):

http://www.gaiatheory.org/

Barley


----------



## greypilgrim (Jan 3, 2008)

(CONT....)



> TO FINISH:
> 
> FOR AUSTRALIAN, PACIFIC ISLE, CENTRAL, NORTH AND SOUTH AMERICAN, CHINESE AND KOREAN FLOOD LEGENDS, GO HERE:
> 
> http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html#Islamic


----------



## greypilgrim (Jan 3, 2008)

Barliman Butterbur said:


> Come now GP, do you _really_ expect people to plow through all of that (Posts 23-30)?
> 
> Here's another theory I like to believe is true because it's so elegant (and _much_ more fun):
> 
> ...



I think so, yes. At the very least, it's a fun and interesting read. I will leave it to the reader to decide what it means...

Will look into the Gaia Theory later, as now I must drink my daily dose of fiber and head off to work.


----------



## Barliman Butterbur (Jan 3, 2008)

greypilgrim said:


> ...now I must drink my daily dose of fiber and head off to work.



Ah ha!! THAT'S it! You're consuming far too much fiber! 

Barley


----------



## greypilgrim (Jan 3, 2008)

IN RESPONSE TO POST #20+21:

It is very intruiging, the idea of a multiverse. I can imagine at the very center of a black hole, a point of infinite density and gravity...matter is not crushed out of existance, but instead the mysterious forces at work at the heart of a black hole suddenly rips through the fabric of time and space, exploding outwards into nothingness, creating an entire universe like our own, wherein the black hole simply disappears (all of it's matter released into a new universe)...or something like that.


----------



## Barliman Butterbur (Jan 4, 2008)

greypilgrim said:


> IN RESPONSE TO POST #20+21:
> 
> It is very intruiging, the idea of a multiverse. I can imagine at the very center of a black hole, a point of infinite density and gravity...matter is not crushed out of existance, but instead the mysterious forces at work at the heart of a black hole suddenly rips through the fabric of time and space, exploding outwards into nothingness, creating an entire universe like our own, wherein the black hole simply disappears (all of it's matter released into a new universe)...or something like that.



Since you like to go on about speculative cosmological theory, nobody does it like Alice Bailey and Helena Blavatsky. I'm surprised you haven't dragged them into this before now, to say nothing of Rosicrucianism. They all make Hapgood look like a piker.

Barley


----------



## Eledhwen (Jan 4, 2008)

Barliman Butterbur said:


> They all make Hapgood look like a piker.
> Barley


What's a piker?


----------



## greypilgrim (Jan 4, 2008)

Barliman Butterbur said:


> Since you like to go on about speculative cosmological theory, nobody does it like Alice Bailey and Helena Blavatsky. I'm surprised you haven't dragged them into this before now, to say nothing of Rosicrucianism. They all make Hapgood look like a piker.
> 
> Barley


I only watched the Hawking Paradox documentary a few days ago, and the ideas presented in that show were fresh in my mind. I know very little about that stuff. However, just like Hawking, truly my highest hope is that our specie will one day begin colonizing the stars. Is it not inevitable? This century millions of humans will starve be displaced and suffer as we fight for what resoures are left for survival, not to mention having all our eggs in one basket (earth) likely to be wiped out by an asteroid. It's a shame. Ah well, that's an entierly differnet discussion.


----------



## greypilgrim (Jan 4, 2008)

Greetings, Eledhwen!

I think he means an inefficeint amateur, or something to that effect.


----------



## Barliman Butterbur (Jan 4, 2008)

greypilgrim said:


> ...like Hawking, truly my highest hope is that our specie will one day begin colonizing the stars. Is it not inevitable? This century millions of humans will starve be displaced and suffer as we fight for what resoures are left for survival...



My highest hope is that governments and big business stop trying to discredit global warming and start cooperating to stop contributing to it. If we can't get it together here on earth, we sure aren't going to even colonize the moon, let alone heal the earth and preserve our own lives. Off-earth colonization is _far_ from "inevitable" the way we're going. Your other scenario, that of global starvation and wars over resources will be what we leave to our children if we don't change our ways. But that's a subject for the global warming thread.

Back to this thread: the original meaning of "piker" is literally someone who gambles for small stakes, but whose meaning has evolved to also mean someone whose efforts are amateur/beginner compared to someone else involved in the same endeavor (No dictionary? Tsk tsk...  ).

Further into this thread: Here's a taste of Alice Bailey and the Gaia Theory as quoted by a friend of mine in a recent email:

"_Treatise on Cosmic Fire_ by Alice Bailey is the grand exposition on Gaia type theory, and takes it much further than current scientists. _Since the whole universe is a living being,_ [Italics mine. How's _that_ for a premise?! Straight out of Hinduism, but we can't take that any further, since religious discussion is banned  ] it follows that the main hierarchies of organization, like galaxies and solar systems, also are living beings. Planets are too, not just earth, but all planets. All things from the atom on up to galaxies and beyond, are evolving conscious beings. Humanity is where you begin to get divine awareness as a possibility, in the system. All planets, at one time, in eons past, went through the human phase. All atoms, in eons in the future, will also go through the human phase. "

I think Bailey's a _lot_ more fun to contemplate as Truth than Hapgood. My point: in one sense, there's no limit to the ingredients in the wafflethought batter (see my Post #22). In another sense, no matter how wild the thoughts we produce, they are still products of the oh-so-limited brain/mind. When it comes to fathoming Ultimate Truth, we are no better equipped for that than a cocker spaniel is for reading the sports page.

Barley


----------



## greypilgrim (Jan 5, 2008)

Barliman,

I find GAIA to be a profound, healthy philosophy. I think it needs deeper understanding and furtherance of consciousness.

To address one thing from your previous post;

You said: "I give little credence to Mr. Hapgood's musings, because I suppose, as far as I can tell anyway, no one of any serious reputation apparently does either."

There are several well known scientists who support the Pole-Shift theory. Some of them are Dr. Victor Clube, David Talbott, Charles Ginenthal, Ted Holden, C.J. Ransom, Paul La Violette, Tom Van Flandern and Robert Dunlap just to name a few. All are well known scientists from paleontologist to astrophysicist to astronomers.

NOTE: MANY DIFFERENT POLE SHIFT THEORIES ABOUND.

This information comes straight from the NASA website:



> "Scientists have long known that the magnetic pole moves. James Ross located the pole for the first time in 1831 after an exhausting arctic journey during which his ship got stuck in the ice for four years. No one returned until the next century. In 1904, Roald Amundsen found the pole again and discovered that it had moved--at least 50 km since the days of Ross."
> 
> "The pole kept going during the 20th century, north at an average speed of 10 km per year, lately accelerating "to 40 km per year," says Newitt. At this rate it will exit North America and reach Siberia in a few decades."
> 
> ...



I prefer the HAB THEORY simply because of the books I've read on it. HAB and Hapgood communicated on this subject. It is important to remember - Antarctica was only "dicovered" little more than a century ago. In his book "Maps of the Anceint Sea Kings", Hapgood produces mysterious anceint charts mapping a coastline around Antarctica, using heretofore unknown navigational devices, placing Egypt at a equidistant point (center) on the earth. All of this is verified by none less than the US Air Force.

Quoting Einstein again because he was the smartest man the world ever known. His brain was preserved for future genetecists to learn what made him so smart, as far as I know, nobody's else's brain on earth was preserved like this. If that's not reputable I don't know what is.



ALBERT EINSTEIN said:


> "In a polar region there is a continual deposition of ice, which is not symmetrically distributed about the pole. The Earth's rotation acts on these unsymmetrically deposited masses [of ice], and produces centrifugal momentum that is transmitted to the rigid crust of the Earth. The constantly increasing centrifugal momentum produced in this way will, when it has reached a certain point, produce a movement of the Earth's crust over the rest of the Earth's body, and this will displace the polar regions toward the equator."
> 
> "The Path Of The Pole" - Charles Hapgood


----------



## greypilgrim (Jan 5, 2008)

^ On second thought, I would place Tesla next to Einstein in the smartness category. Few others too. But that's irrelevant.


----------



## Barliman Butterbur (Jan 5, 2008)

To GP: Regarding NASA's scientists talking about magnetic pole shifting. That's one thing; Hapgood's idea of earth _toppling over_ is utter nonsense.

Barley


----------



## greypilgrim (Jan 5, 2008)

Barliman Butterbur said:


> To GP: Regarding NASA's scientists talking about magnetic pole shifting. That's one thing; Hapgood's idea of earth _toppling over_ is utter nonsense.
> 
> Barley


 
True, they are researching and referring to the earth's magnetic field.

But, 

Two different theories on the same eventuality, is what I am reading.

NASA:
"The pole kept going during the 20th century, north at an average speed of 10 km per year, lately accelerating "to 40 km per year," says Newitt. At this rate it will exit North America and reach Siberia in a few decades." 

Hence, the sun will rise and set in a different east and a different west in the future. True North is never True and never was. According to what we know, the magnetic Poles are slowly shifting. How that interacts with the 60-mile thick crust of the earth and if it relates to the 10-15 degree wobble of the earth on its axis of spin, I don't claim to know. Theories abound.

As for Charles Hapgood's Theory being utter nonsense - you are entiled to your opinion. I refer you to the Einstein-Hapgood Papers and remind you the HAB Theory is different from Hapgood's Pole Shift Theory also it (HAB Theory) has never been disproven.


----------



## greypilgrim (Jan 5, 2008)

According to the HAB Theory: 

(Concerning the North and South Magnetic Poles Shifting, as relevant to this discussion)

Page 85-86; Cataclysms of the Earth, H. A. Boardman:



> Magnetic Rocks​
> TELLTALE magnetic rocks found in North America and Europe show that in previous epochs, between the recurrent careenings of the globe, they were magnetized in directions different from that in which the earth's electric currents are now magnetizing similar rocks.
> 
> Earth electric currents are today magnetizing various types of rocks so that they will point north south when freely suspended. They are composed of magnetic iron oxide, or magnetite, and have been called natural magnets. They are believed to have been the first compasses used by man.
> ...



* It should be noted that the origins of the magnetic field of the earth are one of the Great Mysteries of Physics.


----------



## Barliman Butterbur (Jan 5, 2008)

I'm beginning to think you may have too much time on your hands and not enough REAL things to think about...

Barley


----------



## greypilgrim (Jan 5, 2008)

Yet even still, I do very much appreciate your audience. I understand how easy it is to write this off as nonsense or shrug your shoulders at it, and that's cool too..

You were right; NASA was referring to a complete magnetic pole reversal, earth's north and south magnetic poles flipping. They know it happens - just not exactly why or when. They say it happens every half million years or so. They say that we are due for another flip. They say compasses won't work and migratory animals will be confused, but other than that, nothing spectacular will happen. They are currently tracking the "path of the pole". Hapgood talks instead about a continuous displacement of the earth's crust, and the the magnetic poles _location_ "shifting" as a result of this. Most interesting in Hapgood's work were the ancient maps. I have brought them here for your viewing pleasure. They'll be in the next post. 

The HAB Theory on the other hand, is very different, and very specific, and will be my main focus in this thread. 



Herbert A. Boardman said:


> The growing South Pole Ice Cap has become a stealthy, silent and relentless force of Nature - a result of the energy created by its eccentric rotation. The ice cap is the creeping peril, the deadly menace, and the divinely ordained executioner of our civilization.





> From Expanded Discussion on HAB Theory:
> 
> "At a symposium of the Union of Geodesy and geophysics, Dr. Pyyotor Shoumsky reported that the south polar ice cap was growing at a minimum rate of 293 cubic miles of ice annually. To put that number in perspective, Lake Erie contains only 109 cubic miles of water. Thus, a volume of ice forms on top of the existing ice at Antarctica each year which is almost three times the volume of water in Lake Erie! That's enough ice to form a layer one mile wide and two miles high from New York to Chicago. And this is the buildup of only one year!
> 
> ...



This information is from 30 years ago.


----------



## Barliman Butterbur (Jan 6, 2008)

greypilgrim said:


> I understand how easy it is to write this off as nonsense or shrug your shoulders at it, and that's cool too..



Thank you, and by your leave, that's exactly what I'm going to do. This is my last post here. 

Barley


----------



## greypilgrim (Jan 6, 2008)

A moden chart of Antarctica (left) and the 1531 chart by Oronteus Finaeus. 

Many other 16th Century maps show a continent and coast where none exist. 





Hadji Ahmed World Map of 1550. Higher sea level. Land bridge between Siberia and Alaska. Massive Antarctic coast, including rivers mountains and glaciers.


----------

