# To Formenos with Finwe!



## Confusticated (Oct 5, 2003)

What do you think of Finwe's decision to join his banished son in Formenos?

Should he have stayed in Tirion and did his duty as King, especially considering that Feanor was always travelling all around Aman spending a lot of time away from his father before he was banished?

Because Finwe and Feanor did not spend every moment together before the banishment, was Finwe's decision to join Feanor done just to show his love for his son rather than that he did not want to be away from him?

Do you think Finwe thought the banishment was just?

Might Finwe have went to Formenos because he thought Feanor would become even more dangerously resentful of his brothers had he not?

Just how much did Finwe favour Feanor over Fingolfin who was the victim of the crime which lead to Feanor being punished?


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## Beleg (Oct 5, 2003)

*Interesting topic*



> What do you think of Finwe's decision to join his banished son in Formenos?



Wrong, based on Noldor pride. 



> Should he have stayed in Tirion and did his duty as King, especially considering that Feanor was always travelling all around Aman spending a lot of time away from his father before he was banished?



Yes, besides its fundamentally wrong: Finwe was the King of Noldor and that responsibility came first, also he was baised, he favoured Feanor over Fingolfin and his act was probably men to show his displeasure towards Fingolfin not to mention his disregard of Manwe's decision concerning Feanor. 


> Because Finwe and Feanor did not spend every moment together before the banishment, was Finwe's decision to join Feanor done just to show his love for his son rather than that he did not want to be away from him?



Love? It can be called love, but I still think that pride was a big factor: I also think that even Finwe himself had fallen prey to the whispers spread by Morgoth and favoured Feanor. 


> Do you think Finwe thought the banishment was just?



No, I don't think so.



> Just how much did Finwe favour Feanor over Fingolfin who was the victim of the crime which lead to Feanor being punished?



Too much: and I believe the love of Miriel and the element that Feanor was left an orphan was also a factor: the greater part of his love was given to Finwe. 



> Might Finwe have went to Formenos because he thought Feanor would become even more dangerously resentful of his brothers had he not?



Perhaps, but this doesn't make it the right course of action in my eyes.


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## Confusticated (Oct 5, 2003)

> Wrong, based on Noldor pride.


For what reason would pride cause him to go to Formenos?


> Yes, besides its fundamentally wrong: Finwe was the King of Noldor and that responsibility came first...


But he did leave the Noldor in good hands.


> he favoured Feanor over Fingolfin and his act was probably men to show his displeasure towards Fingolfin not to mention his disregard of Manwe's decision concerning Feanor.


Why would he be displeased over Fingolfin?

Couldn't Finwe have respected, and even agree'd with Feanor's punishment while still going away to Formenos with him?



> I also think that even Finwe himself had fallen prey to the whispers spread by Morgoth and favoured Feanor.


Interesting. Seems likely. Do you think he suspected that Fingolfin and his sons wanted to gain the rule of the Noldor? I do not think so, yet the lies of Morgoth might have swayed him in some other matter. One reason I do not think he would have believed that Fingolfin wanted to take over rule of the Noldor, is that he ended up leaving him that rule... if anything it would have been better to ask Finarfin to rule if one thought Fingolfin was trying to be sneeky. Also, in the lies Morgoth sent out about Fingolfin, he said that the Valar too were in on this... would Finwe have believed something that extreme? Based on your last post... I will not be surpised if you do believe this. And the third and biggest reason, I think, is that Finwe, unlike Feanor, was not already paranoid and inclined to have such thoughts.

I think Finwe's favouritism was so much and so blatant, it is a wonder to me that Fingolfin was such a good person about all of it. Very unfair to Fingolfin that his father watched his brother threaten his life, and then ran off to join him when he was sent away for it. But Finwe was supposed to be wise, did he maybe go easy on Feanor not only because he loved him so much but also because he understood Feanor's temper enough to know that if he had bit Feanor's head off or tried to set him straight, Feanor would likely have took this out on his younger brothers? But on the other hand, if Finwe did try to set Feanor straight, I doubt he would have done so in front of anyone... so perhaps in private he did talk to him about it?

Also, might Finwe have loved Feanor so much not only because he was his first son and was so mighty, but greatly in part because he was the son of Miriel... was his love of Miriel sort of transfered over to Feanor?


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## Húrin Thalion (Oct 5, 2003)

I think the reasons why Finwe followed his son to Formenos were many and complex, most important seems his love to his oldest son that indeed was great, he felt that any ban upon his son was also on him. The love between them was indeed great, since it is said of Fëanor: "... His father was dearer to him than the light of Valinor or the peerless works of his hands; and who among sons, of elves or of men, have held their fathers of greater worth?" It is to me obvious that there was a true love between them.

However, I also think there was another reason, perhaps a little overlooked. A ban upon his son was also upon him, a family bond was tight, especially in a royal such. The valar must have known of this when they judged him, his father would follow him wherever he went, maybe not because he wanted to, but because it was excpected by him. He had to show that his trust and loyalty forever was with his eldest son, that the ban would not come between them, this he could not do if he stayed in Tirion. It was a statement, that he had forgiven Fëanor whatever evil he had done. This he did of two reasons, partly because he wanted to maintain good relations with his son out of love, and partly because the Noldor needed and probably expected him to do this. He needed to follow Fëanor to Formenos to keep the Noldor together, to heal the wounds caused by Morgoth's lies.

If he ahd stayed in Tirion, remained as King of the Noldor, then what would have happened? Probably, the exiles would be looked upon as outcasts and I doubt whether they'd return. It is even possible that Fëanor in his bitterness could have tried to asemble as much support as he could and break out of the elvish communities, establish his own autonomous city. Such a development would, of course, not have been desirable and thus I think Finwe did right, especially as he did not know how the story would unfold.

Måns


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## Beleg (Oct 21, 2003)

> For what reason would pride cause him to go to Formenos?



For the reason that his favorite and most beloved son had been cast into exile and he didn't agree with the decision. To show his protest he accompanied Feanor. That is atleast part of the reason. 



> But he did leave the Noldor in good hands.



The successor doesn't matter. What he did was fundamentally wrong. Saying that he left the Noldor in good hands is like saying that Fingon should go away leaving the Kingship in the hands of Finrod. Finrod might be a good and wise king but their is no need for Fingon to leave his seat; same was the case with Finwe. The welfare of his people, who had chosen him as the King came first and it wasn't as if Feanor was going away for ever, it was only twelve years and doubtless Finwe would see him again. 
Also what Feanor did was wrong and his punishment was just but going along with Feanor into exile was a sign that Finwe didnt agree with the punishment and was a sort of a protest and disapproval of his son Fingolfin; and here Finwe was wrong. He didn't act fairly, lavished too much attention of Feanor forgetting that he had other sons too.



> Why would he be displeased over Fingolfin?



Because in his mind, Fingolfin MIGHT be the guilty party. 



> Couldn't Finwe have respected, and even agree'd with Feanor's punishment while still going away to Formenos with him?



No I don't think so. If he really really loved Feanor then he could still stay in Tirion and occasionally visit Feanor in Formenos. Going away with him and leaving Kingship and ignoring his other progeny was a wrong move.



> Do you think he suspected that Fingolfin and his sons wanted to gain the rule of the Noldor?



Even if he might not suspect that, a shadow of doubt would still be planted and this shadow of doubt would still be inflamed by Fingolfin's quarell with Feanor. 




> One reason I do not think he would have believed that Fingolfin wanted to take over rule of the Noldor, is that he ended up leaving him that rule... if anything it would have been better to ask Finarfin to rule if one thought Fingolfin was trying to be sneeky.



But that's different. Fingolfin here is the acting King; Finwe is still there and still possesses the rite to move to Tirion and regain the seat of the High King. Any upheavel of such kind would mean that Fingolfin would seize power and disposses Finwe, and become the permanent King. [Although such a scenario in the political situation of that time seems ridiculus.]




> Also, in the lies Morgoth sent out about Fingolfin, he said that the Valar too were in on this... would Finwe have believed something that extreme?



No, but when Valar punished Feanor, and it is said that they evidently at first took him to be the root of all the disturbance, [Something would greatly displease Finwe] would IMO lower the status of Valar in Finwe's eyes. Although I don't think he would believe something as extreme as that until he had witnessed it first hand. 
I think that Finwe's only weak point was Feanor, something which eventually lead to his death. And someone like Fingolfin who it was apparant didnt love Feanor all that greatly wouldn't be able to gain high status in Finwe's eyes. He would certianly be displeased with Fingolfin.



> I think Finwe's favouritism was so much and so blatant, it is a wonder to me that Fingolfin was such a good person about all of it. Very unfair to Fingolfin that his father watched his brother threaten his life, and then ran off to join him when he was sent away for it. But Finwe was supposed to be wise, did he maybe go easy on Feanor not only because he loved him so much but also because he understood Feanor's temper enough to know that if he had bit Feanor's head off or tried to set him straight, Feanor would likely have took this out on his younger brothers? But on the other hand, if Finwe did try to set Feanor straight, I doubt he would have done so in front of anyone... so perhaps in private he did talk to him about it?


Well here lies Finwe's fault. Even if he understood Feanor's boiling temper it was his mistake that created such a temper. I believe that even though the reasons for his marriage with Indis might be right but seeing the situation it wasn't exactly the most wise move and it seems to me that while making the decision of remarrying, Finwe didn't take Feanor into propotion. It is also possible that in the earlier state of crisis between Finwe and Miriel, Finwe might have uttered some harsh words concerning Miriel in Feanor's hearing which would further inflame his hate for any step mother seeing that he in his faishon adored his father and he would naturally blame Indis or anyone else for making his father act like that. 
Well his talks seem to have had no effect on him, I believe Finwe failed to keep the balance in his household; it was fundamentally a failed household which led to dissention among the siblings.



> Also, might Finwe have loved Feanor so much not only because he was his first son and was so mighty, but greatly in part because he was the son of Miriel... was his love of Miriel sort of transfered over to Feanor?



Perhaps, but seeing that he was the King of Noldor and generally a responisble person, he should have sense enough not to spoil Feanor which he did and maintain a ballance and to coax Feanor to love his half brothers and sisters. 



> _From Sil_
> 
> He lived apart from them, exploring the land of Aman, or busying himself with the knowledge and the crafts in which he delighted. In those unhappy things which later came to pass, and in which Fëanor was the leader, many saw the effect of this breach within the house of Finwë, judging that if Finwë had endured his loss and been content with the fathering of his mighty son, the courses of Fëanor would have been otherwise, and great evil might have been prevented; for the sorrow and the strife in the house of Finwë is graven in the memory of the Noldorin Elves


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