# The Silmarils: A precursor to the One ring?



## elffriend (Jan 20, 2004)

i just wondered if anyone can see the Silmarils as a precussor to the rings of power. Feanor made the Sils, he possessed them, but in a way they possessed him, he would not yield them to anyone, and when Morgoth stole them he cursed Morgoth and swore an oath to get them back, this oath led to his death and distruction of his family. Thingol, made the Sils the Bride price of Luthien, Beren took one Sil from the crown of Morgoth, for which he lost his hand. Thingol lost the Sil, but when it came back into his hands, he had the Dwarves create the Naigrim, Thingol lost his life because of his wish to possess the Naigrim containing the Sil, and this caused the enmity between Dwarves and Elves.
Now in all of this Morgoth had a hand, but Sauron was his Lietenant, does anyone think or believe that Sauron realised that, all races in middle earth were easily corrupted by something they possessed, and the desire to possess a thing of beauty would ultimately betray them.


----------



## Manveru (Jan 20, 2004)

Good reasoning, elffriend, a very good one...
I think you may be very close in this. _The Silmarillion_ was being written for a long period of time, Tolkien meant it to be some kind of "mythology" for his imagined world, its races and so on. So, I guess, there can be some "points" that master T. developed in his other (further) works -> _LotR_.

---------
_BTW: That necklace, which became the "doom" of Thingol, was named Nauglamir._(aaaalrighty then... enough with this "nitpicking")


----------



## Gil-Galad (Jan 20, 2004)

Well I see one small difference.
Those who desired The Silmarils desired them because of theie beauty,while those who desired the Ring in most of the cases wanted it because of the power it had.


----------



## Lantarion (Jan 20, 2004)

That sounds very plausible, elffriend! 
Yeah you're right G-g, good point.

I have thought of this before, or mused on it.. But now it really hits me! Beren loses a hand because of a Silmaril, Frodo loses a finger because of the Ring!


----------



## Bucky (Jan 20, 2004)

_Beren loses a hand because of a Silmaril, Frodo loses a finger because of the Ring! _  

Or:

Beren loses his hand for his love of Luthien; Frodo loses his finger for his love of the Ring.


----------



## Lantarion (Jan 20, 2004)

Hmm.. That's a bit mroe far-fetched, I'd say. Frodo did not love the Ring, he was ensnared and enslaved by it (if only for a few minutes!) and became addicted to it. Drug addicts do not necessarily love their drugs, they simply need them.


----------



## Bucky (Jan 20, 2004)

_Frodo did not love the Ring, he was ensnared and enslaved by it (if only for a few minutes!) and became addicted to it. Drug addicts do not necessarily love their drugs, they simply need them_

I guess YOU'VE never been a drug addict, have you?.
Lucky you.

"Gollum LOVES & HATES the Ring as he LOVES & HATES himself." - Gandalf

Doesn't Gandalf then go onto to say "You should begin to understand, Frodo"?

(sorry, no time to go look up the quotes, ROTK starts at 8:30)


----------



## Manveru (Jan 21, 2004)

If I may "bump in"... Love's a highly addicted phenomenon, don't you think, Lantarion?
And I am not even afraid of the comparison to drugs... it can be even harder to "quit" than most of them...
So...


----------



## Gil-Galad (Jan 21, 2004)

You are right Manveru.........love can be addicting.

*personal experience*


----------



## Ithrynluin (Feb 4, 2004)

Lantarion said:


> Beren loses a hand because of a Silmaril, Frodo loses a finger because of the Ring!


To further this: The Silmarils were a bigger 'trophy' than the One Ring. Beren also lost more (a whole hand) than Frodo ('only' a finger).  

I would also add that the Rings of Power did not evoke as much greed in people as the Silmarils did. The three jewels of Fëanor were mostly an artifact of beauty and had no real use to them, whether the Rings were more than just eye candy.


----------



## Thorondor_ (Jun 3, 2005)

I could hardly picture Morgoth wearing the Silmarils just because they were a thing of beauty - he hardly seems to be a fan of beauty. Why would he risk getting burned by touching them?
And if Mandos predicted that the faith of Arda lies in them, how could they have no power? Carcharoth, the greatest of the werewolves, was also put to great pains by the Silmaril. Also, in the cave of Shelob, we see the phial with the light of Earendil's Silmaril put to a very good use.


----------



## Durin's Bane (Jun 3, 2005)

Ok, three Silmarils and three rings for the elves? What about that?


----------



## Greenwood (Jun 3, 2005)

Thorondor_ said:


> I could hardly picture Morgoth wearing the Silmarils just because they were a thing of beauty - he hardly seems to be a fan of beauty.


But, he did wear them! He put them in his crown.


----------



## Hammersmith (Jun 3, 2005)

Ithrynluin said:


> To further this: The Silmarils were a bigger 'trophy' than the One Ring. Beren also lost more (a whole hand) than Frodo ('only' a finger).


And Beren loved Luthien more than Frodo loved the ring (Beren never risked his life to throw her into a volcano, did he?)  

Has the comparison gone too far?



Greenwood said:


> But, he did wear them! He put them in his crown.


 
I don't think he put them in his crown so he could woo the ladies. More as a symbol of power and triumph. Would you not agree?


----------



## YayGollum (Jun 3, 2005)

Yes, of course. Power and triumph. Ha, ha, Feanor, greatest elf of all time. I won. Also, those silmaril things seem pretty creepily magical to me. But only pretty magical. Everyone must have the things. I doubt that they were made to be evil like that, they were just a super cool holy thing that you couldn't help wishing for. And as to the fate of Arda being stuck inside of them, I am pretty sure that that just means that they had much to do with bringing it about. It's the fault of peoples who want them. They don't have some creepy power that makes everything happen a certain way. Shelob just wasn't a fan of light, and that is a superly creepy as well as brighter than she has ever had the chance to run into type of light.


----------



## Barliman Butterbur (Jun 3, 2005)

elffriend said:


> i just wondered if anyone can see the Silmarils as a precursor to the rings of power.



It's an interesting notion, but the rings were made as snares for the several races of Middle-earth (except for the ones made by the elves), and the One Ring was made as the Master Snare. They were all made for evil purpose, but not the Silmarils, which were made to preserve the light of the Two Trees unblemished (a supremely _noble_ purpose):

"...Fëanor, being come to his full might, was filled with a new thought, or it may be that some shadow of foreknowledge came to him of the doom that drew near; and he pondered how the light of the Trees, the glory of the Blessed Realm, might be preserved imperishable. Then he began a long and secret labour, and he summoned all his lore, and his power, and his subtle skill; and at the end of all he made the Silmarils.
As three great jewels they were in form...

"... inner fire of the Silmarils Fëanor made of the blended light of the Trees of Valinor, which lives in them yet, though the Trees have long withered and shine no more. Therefore even in the darkness of the deepest treasury the Silmarils of their own radiance shone like the stars of Varda; and yet, as were they indeed living beings, they rejoiced in light and received it and gave it back in hues more marvellous than before.

"All who dwell in Aman were filled with wonder and delight at the work of Fëanor. And Varda hallowed the Silmarils, so that thereafter no mortal flesh, nor hands unclean, nor anything of evil will might touch them, but it was scorched and withered..."

So on that basis I conclude that the Silmarils were utterly incomparable — and _not_ precursors — to the rings.

Barley


----------



## Thorondor_ (Jun 4, 2005)

I too disagree that the Silmarils were precursors to the power rings - which were apparently made of gold and were strictly connected to the one ring, while the Silmarils are made out the crystaline silima and contain the light of the trees. In their own kind, each are artifacts of power, but the resemblance stops there. 
Barley, your statement that the elven power rings were made for evil purposes is slightly incorrect, Celebrimbor had no evil intention when he made them, and Sauron too didn't directly affect the rings when they were created - he started interacting with them only later when he put his own ring on.


----------



## Barliman Butterbur (Jun 4, 2005)

Thorondor_ said:


> ...Barley, your statement that the elven power rings were made for evil purposes is slightly incorrect...



I stand slightly corrected... 

Barley


----------



## Ithrynluin (Jun 4, 2005)

Durin's Bane said:


> Ok, three Silmarils and three rings for the elves? What about that?



I've often made a connection between the Silmarils and the Three rings of the elves. The former were 'lost', one in the skies, one in the fires of the earth, and one in the deep waters. The Three were Rings of Air, Fire, and Water.

It is nowhere stated that Celebrimbor & co. named the Rings with the Silmarils in mind, but it seems not at all unlikely.



Thorondor_ said:


> I too disagree that the Silmarils were precursors to the power rings - which were apparently made of gold



It is known that Vilya, the Ring of Air borne by Elrond, was indeed wrought of gold. Nenya, the Ring of Water borne by Galadriel, was made of mithril silver. What Narya was made of is, I think, unknown.



Barliman Butterbur said:


> It's an interesting notion, but the rings were made as snares for the several races of Middle-earth (except for the ones made by the elves), and the One Ring was made as the Master Snare. They were all made for evil purpose, but not the Silmarils, which were made to preserve the light of the Two Trees unblemished (a supremely noble purpose):





Thorondor_ said:


> Barley, your statement that the elven power rings were made for evil purposes is slightly incorrect,



*None* of the Rings, save the One, were made with an evil purpose, they were made with purposes of preservation, enrichment, ennoblement, knowledge...in mind, to enhance the bearers and their kingdoms/people.


----------



## Barliman Butterbur (Jun 4, 2005)

Ithrynluin said:


> ...*None* of the Rings, save the One, were made with an evil purpose, they were made with purposes of preservation, enrichment, ennoblement, knowledge...in mind, to enhance the bearers and their kingdoms/people.



Aside from the elven-made rings and the One Ring, who made the other rings and why?

Barley


----------



## Gothmog (Jun 4, 2005)

Barliman Butterbur said:


> Aside from the elven-made rings and the One Ring, who made the other rings and why?
> 
> Barley


From Fellowship of the Ring: The Shadow of the past


> 'In Eregion long ago many Elven-rings were made, magic rings as you call them, and they were, of course, of various kinds: some more potent and some less. The lesser rings were only essays in the craft before it was full-grown, and to the Elven-smiths they were but trifles - yet still to my mind dangerous for mortals. But the Great Rings, the Rings of Power, they were perilous.


According to Gandalf it would seem that there were nineteen "Great Rings" made by the Elves but many other "lesser" rings. So I would say that all the rings except the One were made by the Elves of Erigion. The lesser rings were the ones made while they were learning the lore that Sauron taught. What powers these had and what happened to them we are not told.


----------



## Greenwood (Jun 4, 2005)

Hammersmith said:


> I don't think he put them in his crown so he could woo the ladies. More as a symbol of power and triumph. Would you not agree?



I agree. Though the image of Morgoth "wooing the ladies" did give me a chuckle.  

I may have misread Thorondor's statement which in its entirety seem to be saying that Morgoth did not wear the Silmarils, as opposed to questioning why he wore them.


----------



## Alatar (Jun 5, 2005)

one more that they resemble each other, both were made for good, but from them great evil was wraught.
The both contain, iner power.
They were lost to the elves by the interference of a dark lord.
great wars were faught over them.
After the war their power was lost or they were lost.
However, the silmarils hurt melkor, he could not control them.

and if you dig deep down, if Finwe had trip over when he awoke, and drowned in cuniven, they would not have been made...i think.


----------



## Thorondor_ (Jun 5, 2005)

Hm, when were the elven rings lost? And they didn't have a power of their own, they were strictly related to Sauron's One Ring. Do you know of any war fought over the elven rings? 

[And at least one Silmaril wasn't lost...]


----------



## Alatar (Jun 5, 2005)

I said there power was lost. They had power of there own before the one was made but when it ensnared them the became bound to it.
The war of the elves and sauron, faught in the second age ended when the host of numenor destroied the host of sauron, though thw war was won eregoin was destroeid and the rings lost, save the three and durins ring.
Well i ment lost as in not with the elves but i understand what you mean and standcorrected.


----------

