# Are the Silvan Elves Avari?



## gate7ole (Jan 20, 2003)

The exact origins of the Silvan Elves are not mentioned in the books. Do you think that we can actually consider them Avari, i.e. the ones Unwilling from the beginning to follow the Valar?


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## Gothmog (Jan 20, 2003)

I would think that it would be more likely that they were Umanyar. Some of those that left the march of the Teleri east of the Misty Mountains possibly Nandor or even Laiquendi who after the destruction of Beleriand had to return east.


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## gate7ole (Jan 20, 2003)

> From Hobbit
> The feasting people were Wood- elves, of course. These are not wicked folk. If they have a fault it is distrust of strangers. Though their magic was strong, even in those days they were wary. They differed from the High Elves of the West, and were more dangerous and less wise. For most of them (together with their scattered relations in the hills and mountains) were descended from the ancient tribes that never went to Faerie in the West. There the Light-elves and the Deep- elves and the Sea-elves went and lived for ages, and grew fairer and wiser and more learned, and invented their magic and their cunning craft, in the making of beautiful and marvellous things, before some came back into the Wide World. In the Wide World the Wood-elves lingered in the twilight of our Sun and Moon but loved best the stars; and they wandered in the great forests that grew tall in lands that are now lost. They dwelt most often by the edges of the woods, from which they could escape at times to hunt, or to ride and run over the open lands by moonlight or starlight; and after the coming of Men they took ever more and more to the gloaming and the dusk. Still elves they were and remain, and that is Good People.


Well, it doesn't bring much light to the topic. It just says that they never went to Valinor.
But if they were not Avari, then who were Avari? Didn't they organize themselves in realms? I don't suppose that all of them stayed East, near Cuivienen. The Silvan Elves are the most probable choice for an Avari kingdom, based also by the description of the above quote.


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## Gothmog (Jan 21, 2003)

The 'Avari' were those of the Quendi that refused to leave the 'Waters of Awakening'. While it is possible that some later did do so and traveled west after. The kingdoms that are mentioned in the Hobbit and LotR would be more likely to be those of the Teleri That left the March West before the crossing of the Misty mountains. They would have established kingdoms there before any of the Avari could. Any Avari who came into that area later would probably be taken into such kindoms as were already there.


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## gate7ole (Jan 21, 2003)

OK, after a further research, I found the following quote in the Appentices of LOTR:


> The Elves far back in the Elder Days became divided into two main branches: the West-elves (the Eldar) and the East-elves. Of the latter kind were most of the elven-folk of Mirkwood and Lórien; but their languages do not appear in this history, in which all the Elvish name and words are of Eldarin form.



This _strongly_ suggests that the Silvan Elves were Avari, since Eldar were considered all the elves that originally began the great journey, whether they ended it or not. I was very content with this finding. But then a passage from UT (Galadriel and Celeborn) perplexed the situation:


> *The Silvan Elves (Tawarwaith) were in origin Teleri*, and so remoter kin of the Sindar, though even longer separated from them than the Teleri of Valinor. They were descended from those of the Teleri who, on the Great Journey, were daunted by the Misty Mountains and lingered in the Vale of Anduin, and so never reached Beleriand or the Sea. They were thus closer akin to the Nandor (otherwise called the Green-elves) of Ossiriand, who eventually crossed the mountains and came at last into Beleriand.
> The Silvan Elves hid themselves in woodland fastnesses beyond the Misty Mountains, and became small and scattered people, *hardly to be distinguished from Avari; but they still remembered that they were in origin Eldar, members of the Third Clan*, and they welcomed those of the Noldor and especially the Sindar.



So, Tolkien again confused us with two different and contradicting versions of the same subject. The passage of UT is later, but here again comes the great discussion about what is canon and what not. Should we accept Tolkien’s last writings (which of course were not published under his care), or should we keep the earlier, but published by him?
I can’t answer it but on this topic, I will personally choose the late writing, though until now I believed the opposite. I believe that Tolkien had in mind that the Silvan Elves were Eldar. That (as Gothmog said) they never crossed the Misty Mountains, but settled there, and formed their small independent realms. After the end of the First Age, they received into their realms many of the Sindar and (fewer) Noldor. And throughout the Ages, a regular number of Avari continuously joined them.

Finally for completion, I provide the part that discusses how they acquired Sindar leaders:
About the elves of Lórien:


> When they (Galadriel and Celeborn) entered that region there were many Noldor in their following, together with Grey-elves and Green-elves; and for a while they dwelt in the country about Lake Nenuial (Evendim, north of the Shire). Celeborn and Galadriel came to be regarded as Lord and Lady of the Eldar in Eriador, including the wandering companies of Nandorin origin who had never passed west over Ered Lindon and come down into Ossiriand.
> [Then, they moved to Eregion]
> But in the meantime the power of Galadriel and Celeborn had grown, and Galadriel, assisted in this by her friendship with the Dwarves of Moria, had come into contact with the Nandorin realm of Lórinand on the other side of the Misty Mountains.


About the Silvan Elves:


> The Silvan Elves hid themselves in woodland fastnesses beyond the Misty Mountains, and became small and scattered people, hardly to be distinguished from Avari; they welcomed those of the Noldor and especially the Sindar who did not pass over the Sea but migrated eastward [i.e. at the beginning of the Second Age]. Under the leadership of these they became again ordered folk and increased in wisdom. Thranduil father of Legolas of the Nine Walkers was Sindarin, and that tongue was used in his house, though not by all his folk.


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