# How did Saruman create his army?



## Aldarion (Sep 13, 2020)

Do we know how exactly did Saruman create his army? How much time it took him, and what did he use to build it?


----------



## Elthir (Sep 13, 2020)

For a partial answer from (somewhere in) _Unfinished Tales:_

"The White Council seems to have been unaware, since for many years Isengard had been closely guarded, of what went on within its Ring. The use, and possibly special breeding, of Orcs was kept secret, and cannot have begun much before 2990 at earliest. The Orc-troops seem never to have been used beyond the territory of Isengard before the attack on Rohan . Had the Council known of this they would, of course, at once have realized that Saruman had become evil."

I hope that fits in well enough with _author_ _published_ accounts. Never really checked.


----------



## Akhôrahil (Sep 14, 2020)

Elthir said:


> For a partial answer from (somewhere in) _Unfinished Tales:_
> 
> "The White Council seems to have been unaware, since for many years Isengard had been closely guarded, of what went on within its Ring. The use, and possibly special breeding, of Orcs was kept secret, and cannot have begun much before 2990 at earliest. The Orc-troops seem never to have been used beyond the territory of Isengard before the attack on Rohan . Had the Council known of this they would, of course, at once have realized that Saruman had become evil."
> 
> I hope that fits in well enough with _author_ _published_ accounts. Never really checked.


I have searched for the two words White Council in an electronic version of Uninished Tales of Númenor and Middle-earth. The above mentioned passage does not exist in this book. That passage seems to be a mere theory of a reader.


----------



## Elthir (Sep 14, 2020)

Akhôrahil said:


> I have searched for the two words White Council in an electronic version of Uninished Tales of Númenor and Middle-earth. The above mentioned passage does not exist in this book. That passage seems to be a mere theory of a reader.




The word white wasn't enough of an inadvertent addition to raise a flag with respect to my memory of this citation. Anyway the source is author's note to *The Palantiri* (note 7).

Take out the word white in the version above, though the White Council is meant in any case.


----------



## Akhôrahil (Sep 14, 2020)

Elthir said:


> The word white wasn't enough of an inadvertent addition to raise a flag with respect to my memory of this citation. Anyway the source is author's note to *The Palantiri* (note 7).
> 
> Take out the word white in the version above, though the White Council is meant in any case.


You are right. I just checked note 7 in the chapter The Palantiri in Unfinished Tales in both the english and the german version and I checked that the note is a note from the author J.R.R. Tolkien and not from the editor Christopher Tolkien.


----------



## Aldarion (Sep 28, 2020)

Nina Francis said:


> hybrid between elves and orcs, isn't that right



The question here is of logistics, not genetics.


----------



## Angelimir (Oct 6, 2020)

I would imagine that Saruman was breeding his Orc Army for sometime. The Fellowship of the Ring also mentions he wore a ring, and called himself Saruman the Many Colored and ring maker. This probably would have aided him. But it’s my understanding many of his Orcs came from the Mountains. As for the cross breeding with men, I believe that is just a line from the movies. I can’t recall Tolkien ever writing a single line to suggest this happened. Globling-men is just another word for Orc in LOTR. If I’m wrong someone correct me and give me the book and page where it can be found.


----------



## Aldarion (Oct 7, 2020)

Angelimir said:


> I would imagine that Saruman was breeding his Orc Army for sometime. The Fellowship of the Ring also mentions he wore a ring, and called himself Saruman the Many Colored and ring maker. This probably would have aided him. But it’s my understanding many of his Orcs came from the Mountains. *As for the cross breeding with men, I believe that is just a line from the movies.* I can’t recall Tolkien ever writing a single line to suggest this happened. Globling-men is just another word for Orc in LOTR. If I’m wrong someone correct me and give me the book and page where it can be found.



It is actually from the books. Treebeard brings it up, and later Gamling basically confirms it:
_'For these Isengarders are more like wicked Men. It is a mark of evil things that came in the Great Darkness that they cannot abide the Sun; but Saruman's Orcs can endure it, even if they hate it. I wonder what he has done? Are they Men he has ruined, or has he blended the races of Orcs and Men? That would be a black evil!'

'But these creatures of Isengard, these half-orcs and goblin-men that the foul craft of Saruman has bred, they will not quail at the sun,' said Gamling_

That being said, it is unclear whether his Uruks were actually cross-bred with men. Treebeard notes such a possibility, but it is still but a theory. Gamling however explicitly notes half-orcs and goblin-men, so he may not have been referring to Uruks. It should be noted however that Saruman's Uruks themselves say not to fear sun, so Saruman clearly _had_ done something to them, thus lending credence to Treebeard's theory:
_'Then what are you doing here?' they answered. 'Why do you look out? Do you wish to see the greatness of our army? We are the fighting Uruk-hai.'
'I looked out to see the dawn,' said Aragorn.
'What of the dawn?' they jeered. 'We are the Uruk-hai: *we do not stop the fight for night or day*, for fair weather or for storm. We come to kill, by sun or moon. What of the dawn?'_


----------



## Elthir (Oct 8, 2020)

In my opinion Saruman's _Uruk-hai_ (which term means ("[great] Orc-folk") were great orcs, better trained to endure the sunlight.

"But we can't run in the sunlight."

"You'll run with me behind you," said Ugluk, "Run! Or you'll never see your beloved holes again. By the White Hand! What's the use of sending out mountain-maggots on a trip, *only half-trained.* Run, curse you! Run while night lasts!"​
"Behind them came two battalions of the fierce Uruks, heavily armed *but trained* to move at great speed for many miles." The Battles of the Fords of Isen

Theodred was not slain by an Uruk, but was "hewn down by a great Orc-man."

And Merry (Flotsam and Jetsam) describes the armies of Saruman, including endless lines of marching orcs, and troops of orcs on great wolves, *and battalions of Men:* "Most of them were ordinary Men, rather tall and dark-haired, and grim but not particularly evil-looking.* But there were some others that were horrible: man-high but with goblin faces, sallow, leering, squint-eyed*. Do you know, they reminded me at once of the Southerner at Bree; only he was not so obviously orc-like as most of these were."

Aragorn refers to these as *half-orcs*, and notes that they had many to deal with at Helm's Deep.

So with respect to sun endurance, I think we have well trained Uruks and Half-orcs (not fully orcs), and if we really want to press matters, back in the chapter the Uruk-hai, it's said that *most* of the Northerners dashed off, *while a few of the larger, bolder Northerners remained with the Isengarders*, and it's never noted that these larger Northerners have any trouble keeping up with Saruman's lot in the race that follows.

In short, we appear to, at least arguably, have more than one reason why certain orcs or ork-ish beings do better under the sunlight than others, including the half-orcs who also might not quail under the sun.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 9, 2020)

Tolkien was clearly uncomfortable with the implications of crossbreeding, but given the evidence of the texts, it does seem to point in that direction. 



Aldarion said:


> The question here is of logistics, not genetics.


Whatever their nature, Saruman had dealings with orcs. I would assume part of their contribution would be in gold and silver from their mining activities. That would enable him to buy supplies from the Shire, and also pay off the Dunlending chieftains.


----------

