# Elvish Hierarchy and it's Meaning



## MissLady333 (Jan 26, 2012)

Hello everyone! I'm new here on the forum and wanted to ask a question that's been bugging me for a long time now. 

Why did Tolkien allow Thranduil to be a "King" while Elrond, Celeborn, and Galadriel were just "Lords/Lady?" Is it due to their family lineages or is there a deeper meaning to it?

Thanks for any answers you can give me!


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## Elthir (Jan 26, 2012)

Welcome *MissLady333*. Apologies for tossing another consideration into the mix: while Tolkien did describe why Galadriel and Celeborn took no title of King or Queen, and did actually claim (in the 'Zimmerman letter' maybe, or somewhere in some letter anyway) that Galadriel was not, in fact, a Queen...

... he did publish Gimli referring to Galadriel as a Queen however, which doesn't necessarily mean Gimli is correct, but still; and _Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age_ actually refers to her as a Queen of the Woodland Elves as well. This latter text was posthumously published by Christopher Tolkien however, included with _Quenta Silmarillion,_ so perhaps Tolkien would have altered this himself.

It does seem like JRRT's later thoughts were that Celeborn and Galadriel should take no such titles, but again I wonder if he would have actually published this (or did he and I am forgetting?). They essentially ruled Lorien in any case, or 'took up its government', but on the other hand it might be that there is something here with respect to a change in Galadriel, compared to her youthful days; although in any event the text specifically states (one of them anyway):



> 'There they dwelt while the Third Age lasted, but they took no title of King or Queen; for they said that they were only guardians of this small but fair realm...'
> 
> JRRT, Unfinished Tales, _The History of Galadriel and Celeborn_


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## Troll (Jan 27, 2012)

Galin has the right of it; one additional detail that may be salient is that Galadriel and Celeborn had no claim to royal titles among their own people. Thranduil's father Oropher could claim kingship over the Nandor of Mirkwood and Amdil could claim kingship over the Galadhrim of Lorien because they were of the Sindar, the preeminent royal house of which was long defunct and never held sway over the entire tribe anyway. Galadriel, however, was of the Noldor, and Gil-Galad held the senior claim to the title of "King."

After Gil-Galad's death, Galadriel could have made a decent argument as to her right to the Kingship, but at that point the diminution of the High Elves made it kind of a moot point anyway. Additionally, she probably mellowed out with age, as Galin suggested.


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## Eledhwen (Jan 29, 2012)

Maybe those who left Middle-earth, living in Valinor, perceived kingship differently from the Elves who forsook the call and stayed in Middle-earth; even after the former had returned. Kings are needed as leaders and rallying points in times of war; and those who remained where orcs and dragons hunted had to defend themselves and needed to look to their leader and agree to be subject to his will. In Valinor, however, the Elves had the Valar to look to and did not need a king. Their High Lords, it seems, may rather have been the first among equals than the subjects of a monarch.


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## Bucky (Mar 7, 2012)

Troll said:


> Galadriel, however, was of the Noldor, and Gil-Galad held the senior claim to the title of "King."
> 
> After Gil-Galad's death, Galadriel could have made a decent argument as to her right to the Kingship, but at that point the diminution of the High Elves made it kind of a moot point anyway. Additionally, she probably mellowed out with age, as Galin suggested.



*Actually, I believe that had there been a next Elven-king, it would have been Elrond, not Galadriel...

1. The line of succession always went to the next elder male in the family.

2. That's Elrond, via his line of descent on his father's side as Turgon's great-grandson.

*


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## Troll (Mar 8, 2012)

Bucky said:


> Actually, I believe that had there been a next Elven-king, it would have been Elrond, not Galadriel...
> 
> 1. The line of succession always went to the next elder male in the family.
> 
> 2. That's Elrond, via his line of descent on his father's side as Turgon's great-grandson.



Yeah, but the pro-Galadriel faction (if it had existed) would just as quickly point out that Elrond isn't pure-blooded Eldar, being _half-_Elven. If you consider Elrond's mixed parentage to disqualify him from the title of High King, then the right to rule passes from the line of Fingon to the line of Finarfin, since Gil-Galad was the last surviving member of the line of Fingon and Maedhros had long since removed the now-extinct line of Feanor from contention. (Celebrimbor could have made his own claim on the throne, had he not died long before Gil-Galad.) Finarfin is already the King of the Noldor of Aman, and is ineligible to be High King of the Noldor-in-Exile because he never became an Exile. Since Galadriel is the last surviving of all her siblings, she is the only eligible candidate from that line.

Basically, the only two candidates are Elrond and Galadriel. Both of them have what traditionalists would call problems, being a mongrel and a woman respectively, but that means both of them could build a case based on the failings of the other.

Fortunately it seems that the Eldar got tired of that kind of political backbiting after the fall of Beleriand.


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## Elthir (Mar 8, 2012)

Another factor might be that Tolkien actually revised the idea of Gil-galad as the son of Fingon* making him a Finarfinian and son of Arothir (Arothir is 'Orodreth', now Galadriel's nephew) son of Angrod... once this occurs Galadriel's nephew's son becomes High King of the Eldar in Middle-earth. I like the observations of 'solicitr' (not sure if he posts here):



> 'An observation on 'male primogeniture:' I don't think it quite fits the given accounts (any of them) to impose the Salic Law on the Eldarin royal houses. The more I revolve the claim of kingship as it in fact passed (and didn't pass), the more I am convinced that Kingship among the Elves could pass in the female line, but not to a female: she would preserve it for her male descendants. If this is the case then it makes perfect sense why Dior is Thingol's Heir, not Luthien; that Earendil son of Idril rules at the Havens (and that his wife Elwing was not "Queen" of the Sindarin majority there), and that T[olkien] never even considers Galadriel as being a claimant. (Perhaps one reason he dumped Amroth as G & C's son is that Amroth would have suddenly become a claimant- instead, G has a daughter, who has a daughter...whose son Eldarion 'scion of Elves' is considerd the ruler of Middle-earth's remaining Eldar.).
> 
> (...) I think that may be it precisely: seniority in age was what mattered, rather than line of descent. G-G was older than Earendil. After all, the Elves' quasi-immortality poses a real problem for the traditional Mannish system of lineal primogeniture- there's always a chance that a child from a senior line to the reigning King could pop up.
> 
> ...




That's a compilation from various posts in the same thread, but I think it all works well enough. In other words: makes sense to me!

_______________
*Christopher Tolkien said it would have been better to leave Gil-galad's parentage obscure in the Silmarillion, as he did in the subsequent Children of hurin, interestingly.


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## Bucky (Mar 8, 2012)

Yeah, I'm aware of the mess of Gil-Gaslad's parentage (and other familial discrepancies with the House of Finwe). I just didn't think they were pertinent to this discussion.

As far as Elrond, I'm not sure being Half-Elven even comes into the mix when one has chosen to be an Elf.

It's a moot point anyhow as Gil-Galad was the last.


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## Troll (Mar 9, 2012)

I wonder why Tolkien was good with the idea of reigning Queens in Numenor but not in the realms of the Eldar. Why _wouldn't_ Luthien have been considered Thingol's heir? Why _wouldn't_ Idril be Turgon's heir? I suppose in both of the aforementioned cases various other circumstances intervened, and/or they simply declined the honor.

If reigning Queens were absolutely unknown and a shocking notion to the Eldar, that would make it that much less likely that Galadriel would be in a position to inherit. It's still incredible that simple misogyny could result in the greatest of all living Elves being passed over for the place of first honor in favor of a (relatively) young upstart who never even saw the light of the Trees.

Perhaps that's the real reason Elrond never claimed the throne - even if Galadriel's gender disqualified her, leaving him with the only remaining claim to the throne, he may not have wanted to cause a rift within the remaining Eldar by so blatantly disrespecting his elder, cousin three times removed, and mother-in-law.

"Perhaps one reason he dumped Amroth as G & C's son is that Amroth would have suddenly become a claimant- instead, G has a daughter, who has a daughter...whose son Eldarion 'scion of Elves' is considerd the ruler of Middle-earth's remaining Eldar."

^^^ That's an awesome observation there. Elrond marrying Celebrian put his daughter's son in a position to reunite not just the lines of Earendil, but also the lines of the house of Finwe (I suppose Elladan and Elrohir are also in the succession, but I doubt they care). If Arwen had married an Elf, that Elf would almost certainly have had the unquestionable right to rule following Elrond and Galadriel's departures. Of course, the number of Noldor left in Middle-Earth at that point would probably be in the dozens, if that, but still - a king is a king, I guess. It's weird to think that the King of the Dunedain would also be King of the Noldor, despite being a Man. Eldarion is such a weird creature. 0_o


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