# Use of The Word "hell" in Place of "Angband" in The Silmarillion



## Eljorahir (Dec 6, 2022)

Near the end of the first page of Chapter 14, "Of Beleriand and Its Realms":

*'Before the gates of Angband filth and desolation spread southward for many miles over the wide plain of Ard-galen; but after the coming of the Sun rich grass arose there, and while Angband was besieged and its gates shut there were green things even among the pits and broken rocks before the doors of hell.'*

While reading this chapter last night I stopped and thought about Tolkien's use of the word "hell" at the end of this sentence. To me, it seems quite out of place because it links the place "Angband" a little too closely with the place called "hell" in our real-world religions. Or, maybe I'm misinterpreting Tolkien's intention in using the word in this context.

In what sense do you think Tolkien means the "doors of hell" are the same as the "doors of Angband"?
Do you agree that "hell" seems out of place here, or am I just over-thinking it? 😊


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## Olorgando (Dec 7, 2022)

That Melkor / Morgoth was the Satan / Lucifer of JRRT's legendarium seems too obvious from so many parallels. But as with his use of the term "heathen" in Gandalf's reproach to Denethor, the term seems to be too close to the real world, even "allegory" _(GASP!)_, to fit well into his legendarium. But then again, JRRT never got around to publishing his author-sanctioned version of _The Silmarillion_, so perhaps he would have excised it, and replaced it with a term more appropriate to his legendarium - like, simply, "Angband".


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## Ent (Dec 7, 2022)

There could be several things at play here, not all of which necessarily derive from his Christian background and an 'oops' so to speak.

See in the etymology of the word from the Old Norse for example:
"Old Norse Hel (from Proto-Germanic *halija "one who covers up or hides something") was the name of Loki's daughter who ruled over the evil dead in Niflheim, the lowest of all worlds (nifl "mist") It might have reinforced the English word "as a transfer of a pagan concept to Christian theology and its vocabulary".

Certainly Angband was the place of a great deal of 'covering up and hiding'. All his twistings, abuses, creatures and armies were 'hidden' in Angband until he was ready to release them.

Was Tolkien familiar with the Old Norse and its mythology regarding Odin, Thor and Loki, and more do we think? I highly suspect so.

So 'hell' has a bit of a broader background than we normally attribute to it. 

That said, a certain parallel is difficult to disabuse ourselves of, isn't it.


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## Elthir (Dec 7, 2022)

JRRT had already published this word [in translation]. For examples:

_The Lord of the Rings_ [Beregond speaking]: *"But how can he win to the Gate, if these foul hell-hawks have other weapons than fear?" *Or _The Adventures of Tom Bombadil_: *"Ere the pit was dug or Hell yawned, ere dwarf was bred or dragon spawned"*

According to a dictionary, the Indo-European root behind Old English _hel_ and Old Norse _hel, _as well
as their Germanic relatives, is _*kel-,_ "to cover, conceal." In origin, _hell_ is thus the "concealed place."
Compare to Tolkien's *Utumno* "the Deep Hidden" derived from a base meaning "cover over, hide"

Of course, in any case, the word hell will carry more "baggage" than that to Christian folk, as Tolkien would know, but "these foul heck-hawks" just doesn't sound as good, in my opinion.

Edit: posted before I saw *Ent's* post!


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## Ent (Dec 7, 2022)

Elthir said:


> Edit: posted before I saw *Ent's* post!


And much more thoroughgoing into the bargain..!! Thanks.


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## Ent (Dec 7, 2022)

Eljorahir said:


> am I just over-thinking it?


So in a more brief and direct response sir Eljorahir, I would say 'perhaps so.' I think his mind encompassed a broader perspective than we usually tend to.

Additions:
Pursuing the root Kel and its derivatives we find these things coming from it too:

Latin: _celare_ "to hide, conceal," _clam_ "secret," _clepere_ "to steal, listen secretly to;"
Old Irish: _cuile_ "cellar," _celim_ "hide,"
Middle Irish: _cul_ "defense, shelter;"
Gothic: _hulistr_ "covering,"
Old English: _heolstor_ "lurking-hole, cave, covering,"
Gothic: _huljan_ "to cover over," _hulundi_ "hole," _hilms_ "helmet," _halja_ "hell,"
Old English: _hol_ "cave," _holu_ "husk, pod;"
Old Prussian: _au-klipts_ "hidden;"
Old Church Slavonic: _poklopu_ "cover, wrapping."

I would say if Tolkien used "confusticate" in the (barely applicable, obscure) sense he did, he's certainly able to have a broader concept of "hell" in view as well.


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## ZehnWaters (Dec 7, 2022)

Eljorahir said:


> Near the end of the first page of Chapter 14, "Of Beleriand and Its Realms":
> 
> *'Before the gates of Angband filth and desolation spread southward for many miles over the wide plain of Ard-galen; but after the coming of the Sun rich grass arose there, and while Angband was besieged and its gates shut there were green things even among the pits and broken rocks before the doors of hell.'*
> 
> ...


In this instance the author is speaking in author voice to the audience, rather than as a character in-universe. It conveys the proper understanding of the situation at hand than another word. Even if it was used in-universe by a character, it could simply be the closest "translation" (keeping with Tolkien's framing as all of these works being documents from the past).


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## Aldarion (Dec 7, 2022)

Eljorahir said:


> Near the end of the first page of Chapter 14, "Of Beleriand and Its Realms":
> 
> *'Before the gates of Angband filth and desolation spread southward for many miles over the wide plain of Ard-galen; but after the coming of the Sun rich grass arose there, and while Angband was besieged and its gates shut there were green things even among the pits and broken rocks before the doors of hell.'*
> 
> ...





Olorgando said:


> That Melkor / Morgoth was the Satan / Lucifer of JRRT's legendarium seems too obvious from so many parallels. But as with his use of the term "heathen" in Gandalf's reproach to Denethor, the term seems to be too close to the real world, even "allegory" _(GASP!)_, to fit well into his legendarium. But then again, JRRT never got around to publishing his author-sanctioned version of _The Silmarillion_, so perhaps he would have excised it, and replaced it with a term more appropriate to his legendarium - like, simply, "Angband".


I would not say there is anything inappropriate here, or out of place. This may be different for us because we are all Tolkien geeks, but to average reader, Angband would mean next to nothing. "Hell" however is a concept that exists in many religions and is very significant in Christianity, so using that simple word would do more to describe the true evil and psychological impact of Angband, what kind of place it is, than spending an entire page on a point-by-point description. Doesn't mean that Angband is literally hell where doomed souls go, though as Olorgando points out, Melkor definitely is Satan.


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## Eljorahir (Dec 7, 2022)

Thanks for all the very interesting responses. Looking a little further on my part...

The Index of Names even uses the term:
_Angband: 'Iron Prison, *Hell* of Iron', the great dungeon-fortress of Morgoth in the Northwest of Middle-earth._

And, consulting my tattered Webster Dictionary given to me by one of my Grade School teachers in the 1970's:
*hell* n. 1. _Religion_. The place of punishment for evildoers after death. 2. Hate or misery. 3. _Printing_. Box for broken or pied type.

I guess the only reason Tolkien's use of the term brings me out of the story just a little is because the religious definition is the first one that pops into my head. Substituting the synonyms provided in my Webster definition number 2, however, works nicely:

"doors of hell" = "doors of hate" or "doors of misery"


(How about that definition #3? There's a usage you don't run into every day.😊)


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## Olorgando (Dec 7, 2022)

Aldarion said:


> This may be different for us because we are all Tolkien geeks, but to average reader, Angband would mean next to nothing.


If such a search is possible, scour my posts for my use of "Angband". Site rules don't prohibit it's use, but every geek here on TTF knows what the Angband I mean.


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## Gloranthan (Dec 9, 2022)

Hell 'to cover or to hide', much like Hall. To modern English speakers this may mean a place Jesus raided 2000 years ago. But, literally, Angband is hidden and covered. Its an apt term. I prefer archaic language and literalism in interpretation to popular functions in literature. The fact that LotR/SIL is better if you actually like mythology and etymology is a feature, not a bug.


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