# One of my oddest thoughts this week. . .Beauty really IS in the eye of the beholder!



## HLGStrider (Oct 14, 2003)

I was thinking about Dwarves and Galadriel tonight and female dwarves having beards and Gimli thinking that Galadriel was so beautiful. . .

Wouldn't somone whose mother was bearded have a different standard of beauty?

Or do all dwarves secretly wish their women looked more like elves?


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## Legolam (Oct 15, 2003)

Interesting point, Elgee!!

Does anyone know if Gimli ever married? Maybe he just had a warped Dwarven sense of what was beautiful. Or maybe dwarves were so introspective and suspicious of other races by the Third Age that they didn't know any better and just thought bearded women were beautiful - and when Gimli met Galadriel, he realised this was not so?

Do you think that, if he had seen Arwen first, he'd have thought her more beautiful? I've got a funny feeling that Galadriel was just the first pretty women he ever saw and he was bound to latch on to that.


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## Confusticated (Oct 15, 2003)

I have guessed the male dwarves thought the female dwarves were attractive. One could even ask the same thing of hobbits. Very short and fat is not generally considered attractive for humans, but I never see anyone ask: How did Rosie find Sam attractive?


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## Quercus (Oct 15, 2003)

First of all, are you sure that female Dwarves had beards? Did Tolkien say this somewhere and I missed it, or are you basing this question on the wisecrack that Aragorn made in the movie?

Secondly, I would assume that Gimli DID see Arwen first. The book says that Arwen was in Rivendell at the same time that Gimli and his father, Gloin, visited there. There is no actual mention of Gimli at the feast that was given in Frodo’s honor after his recovery, but Arwen and Gloin were both there and I can‘t imagine that Gimli had not been invited.


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## Eriol (Oct 15, 2003)

I'd also to add a word for Galadriel here . Gimli probably had seen many elven women, and human women, before. He's not a kid . He has travelled extensively, and he is a bit old. I don't remember his exact age at the war of the Ring, but I remember that he was alive when Gandalf visited Thorin in their dwellings in the Blue Mountains, before he invited Bilbo into the action. 

So it can't be ascribed purely to the novelty of an unbearded woman... Galadriel WAS very beautiful .


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## Inderjit S (Oct 15, 2003)

> First of all, are you sure that female Dwarves had beards? Did Tolkien say this somewhere and I missed it, or are you basing this question on the wisecrack that Aragorn made in the movie?





> Indeed this strangeness they have that no Man nor Elf has ever seen a beardless Dwarf - unless he were shaven in mockery, and would then be more like to die of shame than of many other hurts that to us would seem more deadly. For the Naugrim have beards from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike; nor indeed can their womenkind be discerned by those of other race, be it in feature or in gait or in voice, nor in any wise save this: that they go not to war, and seldom save at direst need issue from their deep bowers and halls


 _Later Quenta Silmarillion_ (HoME 11)



> I don't remember his exact age at the war of the Ring, but I remember that he was alive when Gandalf visited Thorin in their dwellings in the Blue Mountains, before he invited Bilbo into the action.



In the 'Appendix' the the 'Quest of Erebor' (Unfinished Tales), we learn that Gimli was Sixty-two at the time of 'The Hobbit'. Therfore he was born in T.A 2879. He was 140 at the time of the Coronation of King Ellesar. He is recorded to leave in F.A 119, therefore at the time of leaving he would have been 259 years old. He doesn't seem to married prior to LoTR, or after. I don't know what this has to do with Galadriel, if anything, a large proportion of Male Dwarves didn't marry. He wouldn't have been considered overly old by then, but he would have been quite old. 



> histories. It was said by Gimli that there are few dwarf-women, probably no more than a third of the whole people. They seldom walk abroad except at great need, They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of other peoples cannot tell them apart. This has given rise to the foolish opinion among Men that there are no dwarf-women, and that the Dwarves 'grow out of stone'.


 _Appendix A; Of Durin's Folk_ 

*Dwarven Ageing* 



> Dwarves of different 'breeds' vary in their longevity. Durin's race were originally long-lived (especially those named Durin), but like most other peoples they had become less so during the Third Age. Their average age (unless they met a violent death) was about 250 years, which they seldom fell far short of, but could occasionally far exceed (up to 300).(17) A Dwarf of 300 was about as rare and aged as a Man of 100. Dwarves remained young - e.g. regarded as too tender for really hard work or for fighting - until they were 30 or nearly that


 _Making of Appendix A; HoME 12_ 

The reference to a Dwarvish tendency to put on weight is humorous. 'Bombur' is said to be quite fat at the time of the WoTR and it took six Dwarves to lift him. Dain II would have been rare then, not only was he nearing 300, but he was also fit enough to take place in the Battle at Erebor. Bombur though was known for his weight in _The Hobbit._ 

Also, there is this on Dwarvish women.



> To these they are devoted, often rather fiercely: that is, they may treat them with apparent harshness (especially in the desire to ensure that they shall grow up tough, hardy, unyielding), but they defend them with all their power, and resent injuries to them even more than to themselves. The same is true of the attitude of children to parents.


 _Making of Appendix A; HoME 12_ 

I think Gimli's 'attraction' (If such a thing existed) to Galadriel would have been more of a spiritual then sexual one.


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## HLGStrider (Oct 15, 2003)

> First of all, are you sure that female Dwarves had beards? Did Tolkien say this somewhere and I missed it, or are you basing this question on the wisecrack that Aragorn made in the movie?



Well, Ind already answered this already, but I was basing it off a statement made by another member sometime before the movies came out. . .at least before the TT came out. . .and I think before the FotR's did as well. . .a LONG time ago.



> I think Gimli's 'attraction' (If such a thing existed) to Galadriel would have been more of a spiritual then sexual one.



I believe that too. . .however, I've always assumed that each species would have a standard of beauty within itself and would view as beautiful the things closest to itself. . .at least as far as people went. 

The dwarves didn't feel they were ugly, did they, even though the elves probably looked at them as such. It would seem that it would work in the reverse, that dwarves would feel the elves were "odd" looking.


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