# How classified was Rivendell during the War of the Ring?



## Hisoka Morrow (May 26, 2021)

Yeah, even Captain-classes personnel, like Boromir and Faramir could be noticed only through dreams. Are there any other sources to describe Rivendell classified level, authorized by JRRT? It's obvious at least before Saruman begun to get absent from the White Council, Gondor might have already lost contact with elvish states, in particular Rivendell, though little by little(according to the fact that no Gondor personnel was invited into it)


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (May 26, 2021)

No one was invited:


> "That is the purpose for which you are called hither. Called, I say, though I have not called you to me, strangers from distant lands."


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## Hisoka Morrow (May 26, 2021)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> No one was invited:


Oh...so... strictly speaking, it's not a "invitation", was it ?


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## Alcuin (May 27, 2021)

Hisoka, you have a consistent view of Middle-earth in terms of an organized, centralized military state structure. This, I think, is inconsistent with Tolkien’s view of Middle-earth. Certainly there were secrets, certainly there were organized militaries, but the idea of “state secrets” is, in my _opinion_, for the most part foreign to Tolkien’s approach. 

In the case of Rivendell, it was a place of which, as Boromir related to the Council of Elrond, “many had heard, but few knew where it lay.” Denethor his father knew it was “a far northern dale, where Elrond the Half-elven dwelt, greatest of lore-masters,” but even Denethor, with all his hoarded books and scrolls never learned its location – though doubtless that was hidden amongst them. 

The Northern Dúnedain, the survivors of Arnor, knew the location of Rivendell, at least their noblemen did. For the Rangers were the sons of the remaining nobility of Arnor, sent out to ward off evil from the common folk, the farmers and husbandmen among the Dúnedain, that survived also (David Salo once cited a note that they were in The Angle between the Mitheithel and the Bruinen in what had once been southern Rhudaur; I learned of it in an old post by Michael Martinez), who bore the cost of sustaining them in the field, as well as such scattered settlements as Bree and the Shire. The Shire seems to have been the only large settlement remaining in the north, with Bree next in line; Tharbad had been destroyed in floods when Bilbo was an infant. But the survival of the Dúnedain in the North depended upon the support and good will of Elrond in Rivendell and Círdan in Lindon, the largest Elven population besides Lórien and the kingdom in northern Mirkwood. In the ruins of Arnor the Dúnedain and the Eldar worked hand-in-hand as they had during the First Age, and the Dúnedain remained in contact with such creatures as Tom Bombadil, Gandalf, and perhaps Radagast. It was necessary for their survival. 

In the South, the Dúnedain of Gondor were estranged from the Elves. According to “The Ride of Eorl” in _Unfinished Tales_, when Eorl the Young and the Éothéod reached Dol Guldur in their ride to the succor of Gondor when the Balchoth attacked its northern province of Calenardhon and threatened to overthrow its army, the Rohirrim passed through a “gleaming mist” that flowed from Lórien over Anduin to the east side of the river and shielded them from the sight of Dol Guldur. “[A]ll the host behind followed like a great wind, but in a strange silence, as if their hooves did not beat upon the ground.” The Rohirrim had no formal contact with Lórien, though clearly some passed into that land after they settled in what became Rohan. 

The Dúnedain of Gondor likewise lost contact with Lórien. In “Window on the West” (_TT_), Faramir told Frodo and Sam that the Dúnedain were “a failing people.”
[I]n Middle-earth Men and Elves became estranged in the days of darkness, by the arts of the Enemy, and by the slow changes of time in which each kind walked further down their sundered roads. Men now fear and misdoubt the Elves, and yet know little of them. And we of Gondor grow like other Men, like the men of Rohan; for even they, who are the foes of the Dark Lord, shun the Elves and speak of the Golden Wood with dread.​​Yet there are among us still some who have dealings with the Elves when they may, and ever and anon one will go in secret to Lórien, seldom to return. Not I. For I deem it perilous now for mortal man willfully to seek out the Elder People.​​This estrangement of Elves and Men worked to Sauron’s advantage, and in some way he and his agents encouraged it, for it weakened resistance to him. Even so, Elrond had to remind Boromir that “Anduin the Great flows past many shores, ere it comes to … the Gates of Gondor,” by which he indirectly referenced Lórien, perhaps among other places (such as the land of the Beornings further north). 

Rivendell was not on the main road through the Misty Mountains. It was north of the main pass, I think, the one that Elrond counselled Thorin & Co. to avoid because of Orcs, and closer to the High Pass where they met not only the stone-giants, but Orcs (“goblins”) anyway. Gandalf found Rivendell in _The Hobbit_ by following a “path was marked with white stones, some of which were small, and others were half covered with moss or heather,” (“A Short Rest”) though surely Gandalf knew the way after 2000 years in Middle-earth. And in “Flight to the Ford” (_FotR_), Frodo considered an “escape [from the Ringwraiths] over the long uncertain path from the Ford to the edge of Rivendell” quite impossible. 

Returning to _Unfinished Tales_ in the essay “Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn”, we are told that after Sauron destroyed Eregion and its capital Ost-in-Edhil, Sauron turned on Elrond, who had led a force in hope of aiding Eregion, seeking to destroy him, too; but Sauron was attacked from behind by the Dwarves of Khazad-dûm and Amroth of Lórinand (Lórien).
Elrond was able to extricate himself, but he was forced away northwards, and it was at that time [in the year 1697, according to the Tale of Years] that he established a refuge and stronghold at Imladris (Rivendell).​The square-bracketed passage is in the text, so I assume it is an editorial comment by Christopher Tolkien. 

The location of Imladris was no secret to Aragorn II, nor, it would seem, to any of his forebears going back to Elendil. Isildur when he was attacked across from the Gladden Fields was on his way to Rivendell to take counsel with Elrond. But distance, time, forgetfulness, and estrangement from the Eldar meant that the Dúnedain of Gondor no longer knew how to get there. I don’t think Sauron or his emissaries, the Nazgûl, would have more difficulty than they normally encountered trying to move in the shadow-world into which they had faded. Dwarves were by and large not in communication with Elrond, though Glóin had been to Rivendell at least once and remembered how to get there, since he came a second time. 

*But as regards Squint-eyed Southerner’s citation, no, none of those attending the Council of Elrond had been “invited” by him.* Galdor of the Havens was an Elf and knew the way; Aragorn and Glorfindel called Rivendell home, and they led the Hobbits; Bilbo lived there; Gandalf arrived on foot after losing the pursuit of four of the Nazgûl; Legolas was an emissary of his father, and apparently knew or was instructed on how to get there; Glóin and Gimli we just discussed; and Boromir arrived only hours before the Council. 

Gandalf references what happened to gather together the Council of Elrond when he mused upon Bilbo finding and Frodo inheriting the Ring (“Shadow of the Past”):
It was the strangest event in the whole history of the Ring so far: Bilbo’s arrival just at that time, and putting his hand on it, blindly, in the dark.​​There was more than one power at work, Frodo. The Ring was trying to get back to its master. … [N]ow, when its master was awake once more and sending out his dark thought from Mirkwood, it abandoned Gollum. Only to be picked up by the most unlikely person imaginable: Bilbo from the Shire!​​Behind that there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-maker. I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was _meant_ to find the Ring, and _not_ by its maker. In which case you also were _meant_ to have it. And that maybe an encouraging thought.’​
In their discussion of “Many Meetings” in _Reader’s Companion_ Hammond and Scull cite David Cremona that
it is part of the _schema_ of _The Lord of the Rings_ that what seem to be setbacks, blunders and delays, turn out to have been useful shortcuts; though I think Tolkien would have argued that, had they done otherwise, with good intention, that too might have led to the quest’s end, but by a different path. Ilúvatar … does not compel or predestine, but his plans are far-seeing and the roads to his ends, many.​​The rest of the passage Squint-eyed Southerner cites:
​That is the purpose for which you are called hither. Called, I say. though I have not called you to me, strangers from distant lands. You have come and are here met, in this very nick of time, by chance as it may seem. Yet it is not so. Believe rather that it is so ordered that we, who sit here, and none others, must now find counsel for the peril of the world.​​Elrond is referring to Providence, which has directed Bilbo to find the Ring so that Frodo might inherit it and the various members of the Free Folk take counsel together to best determine how to destroy it.


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## Hisoka Morrow (May 27, 2021)

Alcuin said:


> ...The Northern Dúnedain, the survivors of Arnor, knew the location of Rivendell, at least their noblemen did. For the Rangers were the sons of the remaining nobility of Arnor, sent out to ward off evil from the common folk, the farmers and husbandmen among the Dúnedain, that survived also (David Salo once cited a note that they were in The Angle between the Mitheithel and the Bruinen in what had once been southern Rhudaur; I learned of it in an old post by Michael Martinez), who bore the cost of sustaining them in the field, as well as such scattered settlements as Bree and the Shire. The Shire seems to have been the only large settlement remaining in the north, with Bree next in line; Tharbad had been destroyed in floods when Bilbo was an infant. But the survival of the Dúnedain in the North depended upon the support and good will of Elrond in Rivendell and Círdan in Lindon, the largest Elven population besides Lórien and the kingdom in northern Mirkwood. In the ruins of Arnor the Dúnedain and the Eldar worked hand-in-hand as they had during the First Age, and the Dúnedain remained in contact with such creatures as Tom Bombadil, Gandalf, and perhaps Radagast. It was necessary for their survival....


OK...so, it's the Arnor autonomy like Bree still having contact with the elves.


Alcuin said:


> ...The Dúnedain of Gondor likewise lost contact with Lórien. In “Window on the West” (_TT_), Faramir told Frodo and Sam that the Dúnedain were “a failing people.”
> _n Middle-earth Men and Elves became estranged in the days of darkness, by the arts of the Enemy, and by the slow changes of time in which each kind walked further down their sundered roads. Men now fear and misdoubt the Elves, and yet know little of them. And we of Gondor grow like other Men, like the men of Rohan; for even they, who are the foes of the Dark Lord, shun the Elves and speak of the Golden Wood with dread.Yet there are among us still some who have dealings with the Elves when they may, and ever and anon one will go in secret to Lórien, seldom to return. Not I. For I deem it perilous now for mortal man willfully to seek out the Elder People.This estrangement of Elves and Men worked to Sauron’s advantage, and in some way he and his agents encouraged it, for it weakened resistance to him. Even so, Elrond had to remind Boromir that “Anduin the Great flows past many shores, ere it comes to … the Gates of Gondor,” by which he indirectly referenced Lórien, perhaps among other places (such as the land of the Beornings further north)...._


Again, it's Sauron's RUSE, just like what he'd done during the 2nd Age against the Numenor and Elves. Yes, this's reasonable, after the Angamar War, Gondor and elves had no more common reasons to work out. Gondor could handle all it's foes almost on it's own, in case, they even had Rohan. The elves, on the other hands, starting their focus on immigration relative policies to Aman, making their resources too diminished to aid Gondor's main coming policies in other words, further, it's also a horribly costly on logistic if they did so.

In general, Rivendell's fame follow the relationship between the Elvish states and those relatives states. That's why led to it's fame's difference among each Free People's factions.


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## Alcuin (May 27, 2021)

Hisoka Morrow said:


> OK...so, it's the Arnor autonomy like Bree still having contact with the elves.


Arnor is the “lost kingdom.” Remember? It fragmented into three subkingdoms, Rhudaur allied with Angmar, and after a long series of wars, the Witch-king finally besieged and overcame the last capital of Arthedain (Arnor), Fornost, apparently slaughtered the defenders and remaining inhabitants. (I say “apparently” because I don’t believe that is explicitly stated.) After the Witch-king’s defeat and the annihilation of his army of Carn Dûm, Arnor was never restored: too few Dúnedain survived, and without further help (or immigration) from Gondor, the new king, Aranarth, forsook the title “King” for that of “Chieftain”. (Thus Aragorn says he is “but [i.e., ‘only’] the Captain of the Dúnedain of Arnor” in _Return of the King_, “Houses of Healing”, when he arrives to heal Faramir, Éowyn, and Merry.) 

According to its inhabitants, Bree was a settlement that existed before Elendil arrived in Middle-earth. Due to its location at the meeting of two important roads, it survived the collapse of Arnor. After a millennium, its people no longer remembered who the Rangers actually were, the military remains of Arnor, whose continued existence substantiated a claim of sovereignty over their former territories even if they no longer exercised rule over the people living in Bree or the Shire. Bree had no direct contact with Rivendell, and though those people had probably _heard_ of Elrond and Rivendell, and might have known that it was somewhere east of them near the mountains, did not know how to get there. To a lesser degree, the same might be true of the Hobbits in the Shire: they _might_ have heard of Elrond and Rivendell, they _might_ know that it lay to the east near the mountains, but they’d have no idea how to get there. But the Shire-folk were even less interested in the outside world than the Bree-folk.



Hisoka Morrow said:


> Again, it's Sauron's RUSE, just like what he'd done during the 2nd Age against the Numenor and Elves. ... In general, Rivendell's fame follow the relationship between the Elvish states and those relatives states. That's why led to it's fame's difference among each Free People's factions.


To a considerable extent, yes, it is a continuation of Sauron’s Second Age policies towards the Númenóreans: The Dúnedain _were_ the surviving Númenóreans. (Sauron did refer to _policies_ in dealing others, as did Denethor in Gondor. Both were directing states or powers. Aranarth’s decision to renounce kingship for chieftainship was also a _policy_, one that I suspect reflected Elrond’s policy of not claiming any royal or noble title, though he was (pardon the pun in English) _entitled_ to it.)

Following the War of the Last Alliance, Elves resumed their slow emmigration to Tol Eressëa. It wasn’t a “policy” because no one in authority (besides the Valar, who were after all removed from the day-to-day lives of almost everyone in Middle-earth, including the Elves) was encouraging it. After Sauron took shape again and settled at Dol Guldur, once more causing trouble for the inhabitants of Middle-earth, the Elves began to leave Middle-earth in greater _proportion_ to the number that remained. For instance, the Tale of Years (Appendix B of _RotK_) tells us that after Durin’s Bane destroyed the Dwarf-kingdom of Khazad-dûm, the Elves of Lórien began leaving in large numbers, taking ship from Edhellond in the Bay of Belfalas near Dol Amroth. Gildor told Frodo in “Three Is Company” (_FotR_) that “most of our kindred have long ago departed and we too are now only tarrying here a while, ere we return over the Great Sea.” This wasn’t Elven _policy_, it was rather that most of them eventually preferred to be at peace in Aman rather than engaged in the constant change and turmoil of Middle-earth. The bodies (_hröar_) of the Elves _faded_ in Middle-earth. They found this _fading_ undesirable, so much so that it was apparently an important instigation to their coöperation with “Annatar”, Sauron in disguise, who led them to develop the Rings of Power through which he betrayed them. In Aman, the process of fading slowed drastically. So there was a _reason_ the Elves left Middle-earth for Aman, a _purpose_ rather than a policy.


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## Hisoka Morrow (May 28, 2021)

Alcuin said:


> Arnor is the “lost kingdom.” Remember? It fragmented into three subkingdoms, Rhudaur allied with Angmar, and after a long series of wars, the Witch-king finally besieged and overcame the last capital of Arthedain (Arnor), Fornost, apparently slaughtered the defenders and remaining inhabitants.


Forgive me, I don't have suitable words to describe those remains authority of Arnor, such as the Rangers😅😅😅


Alright, alright, I prune it as "immigration relative policies", you know, massive immigration really takes the authority's focus, such as military security, transport system construction and management, and so on, please NVM😅😅😅


Alcuin said:


> To a considerable extent, yes, it is a continuation of Sauron’s Second Age policies towards the Númenóreans: The Dúnedain _were_ the surviving Númenóreans. (Sauron did refer to _policies_ in dealing others, as did Denethor in Gondor. Both were directing states or powers. Aranarth’s decision to renounce kingship for chieftainship was also a _policy_, one that I suspect reflected Elrond’s policy of not claiming any royal or noble title, though he was (pardon the pun in English) _entitled_ to it.


I see, thus this could explain why Denethor acted not so friendly to any Elvish-alliance, and further why Rivendell must be classified, for both of them had to not only defend the enemies on the table(Dark Lord), but also those under the table(such as Gondor VS Arnor for the kingship, and so forth)


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