# So why did Gandalf take the Fellowship thru Moria???



## lilhobo (Jan 16, 2002)

It was like 12 pages and i quite forgot what the consensus was???


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## Ragnarok (Jan 16, 2002)

Caradhras wouldnt let them pass. And Saruman controlled the Gap of Rohan, which would be too close to Isengard for the Ring anyway. Moria was the only other way.


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## lilhobo (Jan 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ragnarok _
> *Caradhras wouldnt let them pass. And Saruman controlled the Gap of Rohan, which would be too close to Isengard for the Ring anyway. Moria was the only other way. *



well dont tell harad that.....otherwise he will tell you about logic and assumptions that are or aint substantitated....and that everyone is picking on him despite his being the greatest logical thinker since Jessie ventura


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## Gothmog (Jan 17, 2002)

To put it in a short post, the reason that Gandalf took the fellowship through Moria is that neither Gandalf nor Aragorn trusted the Gap of Rohan as a way through the mountains and the route through Lebennin was too long. This left only the Pass of Caradhras or Moria.

Gandalf thought that the weather would prevent their use of the Pass, Aragorn was also worried about this. However, Aragorn thought that they should try Caradhras first. This Gandalf concented to, after this failed they then followed the course that Gandalf felt from the begining they should have used and was the only one that he thought had a chance of success.


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## Bucky (Jan 17, 2002)

>>>>the greatest logical thinker since Jessie ventura 


As Jesse used to say when defending the bad guys in announcing wrestling:

"That's the way I see it, Jack." i.e. His opinion/interpretation.

"I'm the only one who tells it like it is." meaning he can actually think & isn't a tow the line mouthpiece.....

Sorry, I always liked the underdog.

The key in a discussion thread is not to respond to or give out flames or personal attacks, Harad (or his enemies)....


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## Grond (Jan 17, 2002)

Bucky, how is a person that is never wrong an underdog? The person that is never wrong is a legend in their own mind and so far superior to everyone else that everyone else is immediately rendered to "underdog status". 

As to your comment, "...meaning he can actually think & isn't a tow the line mouthpiece.....", I assume your meaning here is that apparently the rest of us can't think and are tow the line mouthpieces. To that I simply say, everyone is entitled to their opinions, even those who are in the sizeable minority.


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## Grond (Jan 17, 2002)

I'll get back on point and simply state that Gandalf chose Moria because:
1) He wanted the company to disappear for a while.
2) It's exit was closest to Lorien (except for Carhadras which was tried a failed)
3) He had been through Moria before and made it out fine. There were no orcs then and the Balrog must have been out for a snooze because Gandalf makes no mention of it. It is not stated anywhere in the text that anyone knows exactly what Durin's Bane was and Gandalf may have felt he was up to the task of handling something not coeval to himself.
4) He feels the Gap of Rohan is closed due to increased vigilance of Sauron.

Those are the actual and logical reasons presented by Gandalf the Grey, leader of the Fellowship of the Ring.

If we want to speculate whether the author was logical in making his character take that choice, we can debate that. As to why the fellowship went through the mines of Moria, the author wrote it that way.


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## Gothmog (Jan 17, 2002)

Harad, the question asked is "Why did Gandalf the the fellowship through Moria" not "Why did JRRT want the Fellowship to og through Moria".

JRRT wrote the whole book as he did for Good literary reasons. that is a different question. The reason for Gandalf going through Moria is the reasons given by the author. Those reasons are stated above.

***Paragraph deleted as no longer valid***


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## Grond (Jan 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Harad _
> *...My responses, always on point... *


You post and shoot yourself in the foot at the same time. Your vocabulary Harad consists entirely of I'm always on point, I'm always this or I'm always that. It is no wonder that you attract so much negativity from the forum in general. Do the words self centered and egotistical have no meaning to you?


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## Walter (Jan 17, 2002)

Since the thread has been deleted, I wonder if there has been any more speculation about the possibility to proceed from Imladris via the High Pass and south the Anduin...


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## Grond (Jan 17, 2002)

Walter, you know Harad is going to love this, but I can find no logical reason why the company would not have wanted to use that route. It was relatively well travelled and well known to Gandalf, Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas. Once they got further south, even Boromir would have been able to help with directions.

It appears that they may have needed to find boats sooner but they went off from Imladris with no real idea of what they would need or where they might need it. Do I remember something from the Council of Elrond about the high passes being closed?? If someone has a book handy, please look.... I'm at work without any reference material.


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## Gothmog (Jan 17, 2002)

Since the pass over Caradhras had problems with the wether it may well be that being further north it would have had such problems even earlier. This could be the reason they did not try it at the time. I can think of no other reason.


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## Gothmog (Jan 17, 2002)

the only mention of the High Pass that I could find is when Frodo was talking to Gloin before the Council:


> 'Indeed,' said Glóin, `if it were not for the Beornings, the passage from Dale to Rivendell would long ago have become impossible. They are valiant men and keep open the High Pass and the Ford of Carrock. But their tolls are high,' he added with a shake of his head; `and like Beorn of old they are not over fond of dwarves. Still, they are trusty, and that is much in these days.


So it seems that there is trouble on the other side of the mountains that the High Pass will take them into.

The other Mention of a high pass is later:


> Many had gone east and south; and some of these had crossed
> the Mountains and entered Mirkwood, while others had climbed the pass at the source of the Gladden River, and had come down into Wilderland and over the Gladden Fields and so at length had reached the old home of Radagast at Rhosgobel. Radagast was not there; and they had returned over the high pass that was called the Dimrill Stair. The sons of Elrond, Elladan and Elrohir, were the last to return;


This is probably why Aragorn wanted to try the pass of Caradhras first.


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## Walter (Jan 17, 2002)

Yep - in the maps I have, the High Pass and the Redhorn Pass are about the same height - so if there was snow at the Redhorn Pass there was most probably snow on the High Pass as well. Both are said to be only about 4500ft high - I wonder how accurate those maps are...

Maybe another reason for not taking this route into consideration was that the company with Bilbo had been captured by the Orcs there...


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## Greenwood (Jan 17, 2002)

*RE: The High Pass*

The map in my copy of FOTR does not give altitudes, but it does give a rough scale and the High Pass looks to be approx. 150 miles further north than the Redhorn Gate. In winter this could make a difference in the weather you could expect. Taking the High Pass would also necessitate a long journey south either between the mountains and the river, the river and Mirkwood (bringing them near Dol Guldur), or on the Anduin River itself (which would mean either finding or building boats in the wilderness).

As for the Redhorn Gate itself, Gandalf says at the end of the debate between Aragorn and himself; "From signs that we have seen lately I fear that the Redhorn Gate may be watched; and also I have doubts of the weather that is coming up behind. Snow may come. ..... "


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## Kuduk (Jan 17, 2002)

I think it is difficult to use the Company's experience in their attempt to cross the Redhorn Pass as a basis for making judgements about what conditions would have been like on the High Pass since the snow on the Redhorn Pass did not appear to be 'natural' in origin.

Anyway, I think the reasons for not taking the High Pass and crossing the Misty Mts right from Rivendell is given in the book.



> At the Ford of Bruinen they left the Road and turning southwards went on by narrow paths among the folded lands. Their purpose was to hold this course west of the Mountains for many miles and days. The country was much rougher and more barren than in the green vale of the Great River in Wilderland on the other side of the range, and their going would be slow; but they hoped in this way to escape the notice of unfriendly eyes. The spies of Sauron had hitherto seldom been seen in this empty country, and the paths were little known except to the people of Rivendell.



So I would also offer that by the reasoning given in this paragraph, the decision to go through Moria was a calculated risk and not necessarily poor judgment -- except, of course, they forgot about the small matter of the Balrog.


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## ReadWryt (Jan 18, 2002)

Ok, look...here is the whole deal on Personal Attacks. Unlike the reaction that some un-named poster to this thread had, and counter to their statement that when attacked they will attack back, there will be NONE of that in ANY thread. If anyone attacks you personally, let the moderators know by reporting the post. Do NOT respond with a "Counter Attack"...this is how Flame Wars indeed start and flame wars were the reason the previous incarnation of this forum was shut down. If you MUST respond to someone's post do so in Private Message or E-Mail but do NOT presume to waste the Public Space with your petty personal garbage...period. Trust me on this, I know that some of you think that I am mean, ill tempered and possibly drunk with power, but if you think that I am like Saruman wait till you have to tangle with the Webmaster, he is not just Morgoth, he is Eru on a really bad day!


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## daisy (Jan 18, 2002)

*re: forgetting the balrog*

I was under the impression that Gandalf was very much aware of the existence, or at least rumour of the balrog, and was simply hoping that they could make it through Moria without making too much noise, which of course Pippin took care of. Am I wrong? A sleeping four year old has cut off access to tome.

daisy


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## Grond (Jan 18, 2002)

Daisy, I think everyone was aware that Durin's Bane resided in Moria; but, whether anyone actually knew it was a Balrog is never stated in the texts. I seem to remember it referred to as a sleeping evil awakened when the Dwarves delved too deep.

And you are right, both Gandalf and Aragorn had been through Moria before and not encountered the evil thing.


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## Lantarion (Jan 19, 2002)

Then why would Gandalf be reluctant to go through Khazad-dûm? If he didn't have a clue of what was inside, you might call it caution; but he seems very grim and sure that the way through Moria is unsafe.. Perhaps Maiar have the same kind of 'revelations' that Elves have (like Melian, when she speaks to Galadriel of the destruction of Beleriand), and Gandalf just somehow 'knew' that there was something nasty locked up inside. He knew that the Dwarves had awakened Durin's Bane, but he wasn't sure whether it was still there or not. His not being sure is shown in his sigh: "A Balrog. Now I understand. What an evil fate. And I am already weary."


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## Grond (Jan 19, 2002)

Yes, Harad and Pont. They were faced with making a choice between many different bad situations. Gandalf chose Moria because of the many reasons already cited on this thread. His reasons might not have been logical, they might not have been wise, but he was leading the company and felt the road through Moria had the greatest chance of being successful, as written by the author. 

I continue to feel that Gandalf felt an intense need to get to Lorien and that was a driving force behind his choice.


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## Greenwood (Jan 19, 2002)

I concur with Grond. Though everyone knew something known as "Durin's Bane" was in Moria (at least in the past), I can find no evidence that it was actually known to be a balrog. After the Fellowship has left Balin's Tomb, Gandalf tries to hold the door closed with a "shutting-spell". When Ganadalf tells the others about the incident a few minutes later, Gimli asks him if he met the beater of the drums. Gandalf replies: "I do not know. ... But I found myself suddenly faced by something that I have not met before." He describes putting the shutting spell on the door and talks about hearing the orcs on the other side of the door. He goes on: "Then something came into the chamber -- I felt it through the door, and the orcs themselves were afraid and fell silent. It laid hold of the iron ring, and then it perceived me and my spell. *What it was I cannot guess*, but I have never felt such a challenge. ...." [emphasis added] A few pages on, when the balrog is at last revealed to all as they head for the bridge, Gandalf says: "A Balrog. .... Now I understand." All of the preceeding indicates to me that until the Fellowship's encounter with it, it was not common knowledge that Durin's Bane was a balrog. Most of us have read the books so many times that I think we sometimes have trouble remembering what is known when.

As I said in the earlier incarnation of this thread, I think Gandalf chose Moria as the best of a bunch of bad choices. I also pointed out earlier that Durin had been slain more than a thousand years earlier and even the dwarf/orc wars at the end of which Dain Ironfoot says that he has looked into Moria and Durin's Bane is still there, are over 200 years in the past. Balin and his folk re-entered Moria and lived there for five years before being wiped out. Gandalf did not know for sure that Balin was dead, though it had been 25 years since Balin was heard from. Gandalf did know that Balin lived for five years in Moria without trouble. I do not think it was a necessarily fool-hardy hope that the Fellowship could slip through unnoticed in a few days where Balin lived for five years.


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## Greenwood (Jan 19, 2002)

> If one argues that Saruman himself would be guarding the Gap then he would be a formidable threat. However, considering Saruman was not found outside of Orthanc until he was thrown out (true?) that seems unlikely.



In The Two Towers when Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas are camped outside of Fangorn forest they see an old man watvhing them who disappears when they try to approach him. They suspect he is Saruman, but there is no proof. The next day after they meet Gandalf, they ask him if he was the old man of the night before. He replies that he was not and surmises that Saruman had come to investigate what had become of his troops and their hobbit captives. Thus we have an indication that Saruman would indeed leave Orthanc in pursuit of the Ring.


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## Grond (Jan 19, 2002)

Harad, I won't argue to your point, (I was wrong to do so on the last thread) as your point is valid. We are left to wonder why Gandalf made the choices he did. Was it to visit Lorien, was it because he feared Saruman (the known) more than Durin's Bane(an unknown) we'll never know. You have argued your point well that the Gap of Rohan certainly made sense and would have made a good story in itself. 

Possibly the author already had a preconceived decision for the Fellowship to pass through Lorien (after all Galadriel was already an important player in his Histories and maybe he just had to include her in his book). For whatever the reasons, I find no monumental error in Gandalf taking the mines.... call it an error in judgement and not necessarily an error in logic.

And I mean this sincerely Harad.......... Peace!!


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## Gothmog (Jan 19, 2002)

> 'Things have changed since you came north, Boromir,' answered Gandalf. 'Did you not hear what I told you of Saruman? With him I may have business of my own ere all is over. But the Ring must not come near Isengard, if that can by any means be prevented. The Gap of Rohan is closed to us while we go with the Bearer.



This is the reason that Gandalf would not concider The Gap. It is because Saruman would be actively watching for the ring. Gandalf may well have wanted to go to Lorien and if so this may have influenced the decision. But he clearly states that "The Ring Must Not Come Near Isengard". Saruman may or may not have left the Tower but would have been watching and could have sent his Orcs to where the Ring was. After all he managed to do so on the other side of Rohan.


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## Rian (Jan 19, 2002)

There is one point that is missing from this thread. In the book, while the company was debating on what path to take - they were attacked by Wargs. At that point, the closet path to choose was through Moria.


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## Gothmog (Jan 19, 2002)

Rian that is a very good point, but Gandalf wanted to go through Moria before they had even left Rivendell. I think that this is why harad asked the question in the first place.


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## Grond (Jan 19, 2002)

I am sure that I remember the author saying something about wanting to expand on "legends" mentioned in The Hobbit about which he had already written much text about. These things would have included Gondolin (which was destroyed), Galadriel, Celeborn and Amroth (two of whom resided in Lorien) and Moria (where Durin's Bane dwells). Isn't it likely that the author pointed Gandalf that way so that both the mines of Moria and Lorien would play pivotal parts in the story. I agree that he gave logical reasons not to take the Gap but the darkness of Moria and the light of Lorien add so much depth to the story. Gandalf behaves logically because the author makes it so.


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## Gothmog (Jan 19, 2002)

This is so but I feel that the reasons of the author and the reasons of one the charaters in the book are two different questions. If we have concluded this question about Gandalf's reasons perhaps harad would like to start a thread about "Why Tolkien wanted the Fellowship to go through Moria?"

Could cause some interesting debate.


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## Snaga (Jan 19, 2002)

The view that it would be easier to sneak through the Gap of R than Moria is one that I want to dispute. I do this from having some training in Search and Rescue (although I can't claim to be a world expert).

It is definitely easier to find someone/a group in an open relatively flat terrain than it is in cave complex. Caves would be easier if they were small, but Moria is huge. Even mountains locations are harder than open ground. Main point, you can overfly flat terrain more easily, and there are fewer points of concealment. Saruman and Sauron definitely have flying spies of one sort or another. 

The approaches to the Gap are hostile to the Fellowship - they are the home of the Dunlendings, Saruman's allies. So plenty of options for intercedence on the ground. When you get to the Gap there is a river to cross. The main crossing is the Fords of Isen, and Saruman can easily cut them off. But even if they find other means of crossing, it is still relatively straightforward to post patrols all the way along the 70 mile length. Orcs travel very quickly, especially wolf-riders so you might not need that many to close it, if you can see the Fellowship coming from the air. Add into this that it is one of the most likely routes, so you would deploy lots of resources to close it off. On this basis, Gandalf's assessment of the Gap as high risk is correct.

Then all that leaves you to say is whether Moria was lower risk. My impression is that on the facts available to Gandalf the risks appeared lower. Because he didn't know that Durin's Bane was active, and he didn't know it was a Balrog, and he didn't know Sauron had sent Uruks up to try to block it. Moria is easier to block off if you EXPECT the Fellowship to go that way (because you need to hold the Bridge) but Gandalf gambled on it not being blocked because this was not an expected option.

Of course the right way to go was to sneak north, turn east by Mt Gundabad, nip along south of the Grey Mountains, stop for tea at Erebor, take a boat down to Rhun, and slip into Mordor by the back door. If Gandalf had taken Frodo on the back of Shadowfax, they could have been there in no time!


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## Gothmog (Jan 19, 2002)

And also the Ents are roused to sack Isengard and defend Rohan while the Rohirrim are fighting in Gondor. This would not have happened if the Fellowship had used the Gap.


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## Aldanil (Jan 20, 2002)

*Logic Has Shown Me The Way OR Does Anyone Know The Name Of That River?*

The river I'm asking after, sez Iaradanduin, is the large one that flows for many leagues along the border of Near Harad and empties into the Sea between Ethir Anduin and the City of the Corsairs; the fold-out map in the back of my old hardcover copy of ROTK doesn't give its name. I've been trying to apply the analytical method espoused by our Forum's own Harad to solve the apparently knotty problem posed by its so clear-minded questioning of the "logic" of either Gandalf or Tolkien (or both together) in choosing the way for the Ring to Go South, and I think I've figured it out. What would surely have proved the quietest, quickest, and most secretly surprising route for the Fellowship to follow (if only Mithrandir or our donnish short-sighted Author had possessed the good sense to see it) puts them in Elven-boats from Rivendell to ride the swift currents of Bruinen to Mitheithel past Tharbad to the mouth of Greyflood and so south and then southeast across the Bay of Belfalas, enjoying the envigorating ocean air all the while, of course, and approaching Mordor from a most unexpected angle too, quite a strategic plus there, sailing stealthily along up that nameless big river aforementioned north of Umbar, and finally sneaking into the Land of Shadow over the southwestern range of the Ephel Duath. Even Sauron wouldn't be looking for the Company to come up from behind him! This plan for the Fellowship would have just been the best, as I'm sure you'll admit if you can grasp the narrative concept, allowing for the contrast of the crebain avoided with the seagulls encountered, bringing into the story both the dusty dry heat of Mordor and the salty cool breezes of Belfalas. And I'm sure the One would certainly have reached Orodruin at this rate before the Fourth Age was more than a few years along. Why didn't the old Professor think of sending them that way, I wonder?

All of which is intended to underscore the point either hinted at or stated quite eloquently outright by a number of previous posts to this thread: the path of the Fellowship into Moria is dictated both by the lack of alternatives, as Gandalf's argument and the Ngaurhoth make clear, and by the deeper story-logic of the Tale, which indeed takes its course, just as it carried Tolkien along on his long journey of discovery in writing it, down into the darkness of Khazad-dum and on to the light of Laurelindorinan. Though wishing not to appear too naively reverent on the matter, I do think that debating whether or not the characters would have been smarter to act in other ways than they did if the author who created them had just used logic more rigorously shows both a kind of critical hubris and a real misunderstanding of the nature of fiction. Grond asserted (or conceded) a few entries ago that Gandalf's reasons "might not have been logical, they might not have been wise, but..."; I really cannot bring myself to agree with the Mace of Morgoth on this one. Mithrandir has eminently good if somewhat desperate cause to lead the Company into Moria, and the evidence to support that decision is strongly present in the novel and ably articulated in many of the postings above. Suggesting that Tolkien might have somehow done it differently and rather better if only his story-telling had been more "logical" is IMO kinda like being given 300 million dollars to turn a masterpiece into a movie and deciding instead to substitute an often distorted and shallow reimagining of its characters and narrative rhythm for much of the original's careful patterning, in fond hopes of enhancing its commercial appeal. Now where have I heard that before?


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## Grond (Jan 20, 2002)

Aldanil, you can't disagree with my assertion because it is not an assertion. It is a might have statement. I was simply countering the arguments that in other reader's opinion's, the actions of Gandalf might have appeared misguided or illogical but that they were explained in depth by the author and very logical reasons were given for proceeding through Moria.

The point I was apparently failing to make is that the story is the author's and no one elses. It isn't perfection, just the best story I've ever had the pleasure to read.


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## Aldanil (Jan 20, 2002)

A sentiment with which I can concur most wholeheartedly, dread Hammer my friend! 

There I was, getting sniffy about what I perceived as unjustifiable concession, and you were only trying to be nice. . .


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## Bombadillodillo (Jan 20, 2002)

*sapientia Eru sapientiis stultitia*

It seems to me that it was Gandalf's intention all along to take the
path through Moria. They choose the southern route for the reason above, namely that it was not patrolled by the enemy. The fellowship did not take the northern passes for the same reason they did not take the Gap of Rohan: because they were heavily watched, they were the routes that the enemy expected them to take. Remember too that they had scouted all the lands before they ever left. 

Regarding Durnin's Bane I will venture this opinion. It seems that no one knew whether Durin's Bane still was in Moria. It had not appeared for myriad years. Moreover, it seems to me likely that it rarely appeared and when it did it must have killed all to whom it manifested itself because not even the wisest and oldest seem to have known what it was. Moreover both Aragorn and Gandalf had been through the mines before and had found it empty.

What Gandalf did not realize was that the ring was attracting evil to itself, or at least how great this attraction was. He only began to realize when it was too late. He first noticed it when the Watcher attacked Frodo, but by then the company was forced to go through Moria. Even then they may have slipped through unnoticed but for Pippen's indiscrete curiousity. Gandalf's reasoning was completely consistent with the entire mission of the company. Going through Moria was perilous and unexpected. Yet it was a walk in the park and perfect logic when compared with the quest itself: to walk right into Sauron's stronghold itself, indeed right before his watchful gaze -- now that is ridiculous illogic. 

It is interesting that Gandalf did not realize how powerfully the ring drew evil unto itself in its search for its master. Gandalf's fall in Moria seems to indicate that even the wisest would be of little aid on this quest. Not through wisdom was the ring to be destroyed. Indeed the quest seemed folly to the wise: ahem, Harad -. 

And let's not forget, the path through Moria was a success, partly through "luck" since the company bypassed the fiery chasm and the trap set for them, and partly because of the courage and sacrifice of Gandalf, who was the wisest of the company. Indeed we could say that the path through Moria was successful because of the sacrifice of wisdom. The wisdom of taking that path used the same logic as the path of the quest. By seemingly sacrificing wisdom and choosing what to all appeared utterly foolish, they fooled the logic of Sauron.



sapientia Eru sapientiis stultitia


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## Rian (Jan 20, 2002)

I had forgotten that they had sent out scouts prior to leaving Rivendell. If they indeed found that the other passes were heavily watched, I believe Gandalf would have decided on taking the company through Moria.


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## Greenwood (Jan 20, 2002)

I really do not see any justification in the books for this idea of the Ring being some sort of a "magnet" for evil, at least not at any distance beyond a face to face confrontation. If the Ring really has any sort of long-range draw for "evil" how do the Nazgul manage to attack the wrong room on Bree? Why is Frodo the last hobbit to be taken by the barrow-wight? Why does Ugluk and his troop grab the wrong hobbits? How do Sam and Frodo get away with their disguise as orcs in Mordor? Why isn't every evil creature in Mordor drawn to them as they make their way to Orodruin?


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## Aldanil (Jan 20, 2002)

Not to "heap" anything heavier than a mild measure of sarcasm on the fearless persistence of your iconoclasm, friend Harad, but I'm almost moved to wonder: are you seeking admission to the guild of the Nit-Picking Weenies? There may well be support, as evinced by the fine first effort of Thorin, for the notion of rewriting the screenplay; your implicit attempt at rewriting the novel, however, seems a bag-end at best. I hope this doesn't come across sounding smaug...


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## Bombadillodillo (Jan 20, 2002)

Greewood wrote:

"I really do not see any justification in the books for this idea of the Ring being some sort of a "magnet" for evil, at least not at any distance beyond a face to face confrontation. If the Ring really has any sort of long-range draw for "evil" how do the Nazgul manage to attack the wrong room on Bree?"

This is a good point. There does seem to be some inconsistancy on the draw of the ring. I often wondered the same thing. You are wrong, however, to say there was no draw. And I am not talking about long-range draw but immediate attraction. Gandalf specifically comments on the fact that the Watcher attacks Frodo first and likewise that the orc-chieftan attacks Frodo who is probably the least menacing of the company. You would think that the orc chieftan would aim his spear at one of the warriors. Regarding Bree, it is very unlikely that the Riders attacked the hobbits room. Strider thought that the riders were too far from Mordor to make a direct assault on the inn. They prefer to use the influence of their fear on others and I think that it was just as likely one of the Southrons and Ferny who attempted the assassination. It would be more in line with the way the nine acted especially so far from Mordor. 

Harad, 

I'm not sure what you are saying. Gandalf does not know what hidden evils await in Moria. Both he and Aragorn have travelled it before and know that it is dangerous, but it has been abandoned for a long time, and as far as they know orcs have not returned to Moria in a long time. Regarding the Gap of Rohan, he knows the power of Saruman and knows that he is watching that pass most heavily. More importantly, he does not know that Rohan has not yet been won over. But even in the case of the men of Rohan his fears are in part correct. Saruman's Uruk-hai would have been safe had Eomer not disobeyed the king's orders, influenced by Wormtongue. 

I don't know what is wrong with Gandalf's logic. Saruman is more powerful than Gandalf, and he expects the ring to pass through the gap. All of Saruman's powers are focused on getting the ring before it reaches Minas Tirith, for he wishes if it is possible to gain the ring himself. His best shot (which he gets at the Falls of Rauros) is to get the ring while it is still far from Sauron. Had the company chosen the Gap, it would most likely have fallen into his hands; remember unknown to Gandalf, Saruman possesses a palantir. 

Moreover, I think it the intention of Tolkien to show that wisdom is not going to avail the company on their mission. The mission itself seems to defy all conventional wisdom. The company almost acts recklessly, and their only hope is to defy the logic of Saruman and Sauron. The point of going through Moria is that it is the last path that Sauron or Saruman would think of. It would not be watched by either Sauron or Saruman. If I am correct, neither Sauron's nor Saruman's orcs were in Moria. It seems that the orcs of the dark fire were in the service of the Balrog. And at least as of this time the Balrog was not in the service of the Dark Lord. He remains from the first age and it is not likely that he would easily come under the sway of Sauron especially now when Sauron still did not have the ring. 

In any case, the more interesting aspect of the journey in the dark, is that Gandalf does fall. And as I have said before, wisdom will not avail the quest. Indeed it is less helpful to the bearer than the strength of arms. The company loses their wise guide even before they lose the strength of Boromir and the other great warriors. What then is necessary to bring the ring to its Doom?


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## Bombadillodillo (Jan 20, 2002)

Sorry Greenwood,

I obviously didn't read the very passage I quoted.


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## Bombadillodillo (Jan 20, 2002)

Harad,

You write:

"Tolkien was a fine writer. I could not hope to achieve in small part his LITERARY genius. However the analysis of logical systems is my business, and I if I see slight flaws, and point them out, it will take a lot more than your scorn to change my mind. It will take logical argument."


Would you respond to my argument that wisdom and logic does not avail the company. Their only hope is to defy all logic? You seem to be arguing that their choices are not logical. Gandalf agrees with you and indeed admits that the entire mission seems rash and illogical. That is their best hope. 


sapientia Eru sapientiis stultitia


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## Bombadillodillo (Jan 20, 2002)

Gandalf's argument for taking the road through Moria is this:

All roads are perilous. Therefore, they take the least expected because it will be least watched and hope they can slip through.


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## Bombadillodillo (Jan 20, 2002)

Harad, 

Perhaps, I think you elaborated your argument a little more. Thanks. Nevertheless, I still think you are being somewhat obstinate in your opinion. 

By least expected, I mean least watched also. The Gap of Rohan as also other expected routes are very heavily watched, whereas Moria if it is watched at all, is not watched by Saruman's or Sauron's minions and Gandalf hopes by none at all. 

In any case Gandalf's hope is that whatever evil lies hidden in Moria is not concerned about the ring. Durin's Bane in any case does not belong to the present age and has been inactive for many years and thus appears not to be concerned about the present age.

Obviously Gandalf hopes to slip through unnoticed. He is concerned about Balin's silence. Nevertheless, the company is very few and as Gandalf and Aragorn had done before, they hope now to slip through unnoticed. 

Finally the evil in Moria is an evil that neither Sauron nor Saruman would expect the company to risk. Perhaps neither of them know what lurks in those mines and they may fear it as much as anyone else.

At least you must admit that the Gandalf's reasoning has a logic to it. The reasoning is to take the least likely path and by that way thwart the enemies own expectations. It is afterall the logic behind the entire mission.


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## Bombadillodillo (Jan 20, 2002)

*sapientia Eru sapientiis stultitia*

* And note that I am asked to argue against both sides. First that the Moria path is more logical, hence used, and Second, that the Moria path is less logical, hence used. *

Harad, 

You must at least admit that you cannot win the argument. By reason the Council had concluded that they must take the least likely course, one that defied the logic of Sauron.


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## Bill the Pony (Jan 20, 2002)

*Another factor*

In my opinion there seems to be one factor missing in this discussion, which is the chance that the ringbearer would escape even if the company is detected.
chance of being detected *chance to escape

Saruman knew that he was looking for a hobbit who was carrying the One Ring, and Saruman knew he wanted to get this one ring at all costs. On the other hand I am assuming the Balrog did not have such information. I do not know why the balrog attacked the company, but I guess it has something to do with just being evil. If this is true** then it may be more easy to distract the Balrog from the Ringbearer and enhance his chances of escape.

So my logic here is: Saruman & Balrog: about equal in power
Saruman knows what he is looking for, the Balrog does not.
Conclusion: larger chance for Ringbearer to escape if caught by Balrog, than if caught by Saruman.

How this extra factor affects the overall logic of Gandalf's decision I will leave open to the others on this thread.

**this is of course open to debate, and the issue of the Ring attracting evil comes in here. So far, there are examples where it seems to do so, but I have also seen some good counterarguments on this thread, so I don't want to take a positoin in this one.


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## Bombadillodillo (Jan 20, 2002)

* Note however that most of the others argued that Moria was MORE logical, hence using your logic, Gandalf should have chosen the Gap, as it was less logical. *

Harad, 

Gandalf feared Saruman and knew his power. No one knew what was in Moria, but everyone sure feared it. He choose the least expected road which as I've stated above was also the least watched. Indeed except for Pippen they probably would have passed through unnoticed (although it seems that the Balrog should have been aware of their presence when the Watcher shut the Western gates). It was illogical to Saruman. Therefore Saruman was less concerned with that route, just as Sauron never dreamed they would attempt to enter Mordor and destroy the ring. What made no sense to the enemy was the hope of the West.



But Harad what do you make of the illogic of the quest in general?


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## Bill the Pony (Jan 20, 2002)

> Note however that most of the others argued that Moria was MORE logical, hence using your logic, Gandalf should have chosen the Gap, as it was less logical.



Ok, I know I'm going to confuse myself here, but I'll try to write down the circle of 'logic' here:

fact: without being watched by Saruman the gap is the easier route
conclusion: the company should take the gap
Assumption 1: Saruman will not watch Moria because that's the less likely route (I believe this is a paraphrasing of the book)
conclusion: take the Moria route
Assumption 2: Saruman figures out that the company figures out that he won't watch Moria 
conclusion: Saruman watches Moria 
Asumption 3: the company figures out that saruman figures out that they will take the moria-route, hence that saruman will watch it.
conclusion: they should take the gap
etc etc etc...

Actually, I would stop this circle before assumption 2, (even though that is what happened in the movie), and end up going through Moria. But I agree, you can take this circle as far as you want, and end up with any conclusion you like. Ah well, I guess I should give up...


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## Snaga (Jan 20, 2002)

Originally posted by Bombadillodillo



> If I am correct, neither Sauron's nor Saruman's orcs were in Moria.


 .

Just to correct on that point - Gandalf says at one point in Moria that he's seen Uruks of Mordor. So Sauron appears to have this route covered!

I would set out the logic like this.

(1) The Gap is the easiest route south, and should be taken, although its a shame to miss out on Lothlorien.

(2) But Saruman has gone bad. Saruman knows the Gap is a likely route south, and will do his utmost to stop them. His HQ is next door so Saruman is 100% likely to try to stop them.

(3) What does Saruman need to do to stop them? I'll go into this in some detail, since Harad doesn't believe me. He must overfly the ground from Hollin southwards with Crebain to confirm their approximate location. He can post spies throughout Dunland, and locals can patrol for him. If they sneak past the Dunlendings they must cross the river. Firstly post about 1000 Uruks at the Fords. Then post about 500 in groups every 10 miles along the rest of the river. (Takes a total of 4000 - he's got this many). Then about 5 miles out from there, post small bands of wolf-riders - say 5-10 every 1/2 mile, with some kind of signalling system. Smoke, mirrors, some clever magic whatever - you're a wizard you can figure something out no problem. If the Fellowship hit that net, the groups by the river close in to choke it off. Swarm the skies with crebain, from this point out a further 25 miles so that every point is covered every hour or so. By this method, ensure that you have your wolf riders in position to catch them coming through and setting off the alert. The chances of avoiding detection: almost nil. Chances of the Fellowship successfully getting across a river without boats with that sort of force patrolling: almost nil. Even if Saruman can't stop them, the location of the Ring becomes known. Therefore the Gap is high risk.

(3) Therefore look for alternatives. Both Sauron and Saruman will consider the other routes.

(4) The most obvious alternatives are the mountain passes. There are 3: the High Pass, the pass by source of the River Gladden, and the Caradhras pass.

(5) Logical step from Sauron / Saruman - close the other passes (preferable) or watch them (minimum).

(6) Aragorn view: choose your best route above ground. Gandalf view: take a hidden route that is less obvious (Moria). A disagreement needs resolution, but the debate is inconclusive.

(7) Eregion is empty, rugged and little known except to the people of Rivendell. The Vale of Anduin is wide open, not far from Dol Guldur. Therefore stay to the west of the mountains as long as possible. Also it is winter, so northern passes may be harder than southern passes. (Also, the High Pass is known to go pass an orc stronghold (cf the Hobbit). Gandalf may or may not have got a 'friendly giant' to block it up - unknown). Aragorn prefers Caradhras.

(8) The company proceeds to Hollin, with the issue not yet resolved.

(9) Gandalfs view on Moria. Moria has a single entrance and single exit. If you attempt to close it, the probability of success is extremely good - for the sake of argument lets call it 100%, but Sauron and Saruman won't expect it. Also if you get through without incident, you will have been hidden.

(10) Now lets compare the odds:

Gap of Rohan: Probability of attempt to close = 100%. Probability of successfully closed = X%. Probability of closure = 100% x X% = X%.

B Moria: Probability of attempt to close = Y%. Probability of successfully closed = 100%. Probability of closure = Y% x 100% = Y%.

So Gandalf has to think it is less likely that they can sneak through the Gap, than that Sauron or Saruman will have not blocked Moria. He has to think that the odds are sufficiently better that he can discount the fact that Moria is risky anyway. He doesn't necessarily know the nature of Durin's Bane, but he would expect orcs at least. He has got through an orcs lair before in the Misty Mountains (in the Hobbit), and this time the odds should better. The dwarves and Gandalf were taken by surprise, and all but Gandalf were captured in the Hobbit, got themselves free and escaped. The Fellowship are probably better able to defend themselves, and know what to expect. He hopes to sneak through. He hopes (but doesn't expect) to meet up with Balin. He knows he can have tea and biscuits with Galadriel if he goes this way.

(11) Aragorn wins the debate: they go for Caradhras as the best bet, but that gamble proves not to work due to the snow.

(12) So they go to Moria. There is a Watcher in the Water, but its not there to take Rings from Hobbits - they get by.

(13) They are unlucky. Firstly Pippin lobs a stone down the well. Secondly, Sauron has sent Uruks. Thirdly, Balins folk are all dead. Fourthly, they've woken up Durin's Bane. Fifthly, Durin's Banes a Balrog. 

(14) They also get lucky: Firstly, the orcs are poorly organised - they do not hold the Bridge of Khazad-dum - they chase after stone-throwing hobbits. Secondly, the ring-bearer has a hand-me-down milthril shirt.

(15) Balrog leaps one bridge. Gandalf breaks bridge. Balrog falls. Balrog swings whip. Gandalf teeters on brink. "Fly you fools!" It was his idea - the cheeky monkey! 

Well this is a long post and no mistake. I can think of no more to say on this subject. Except that I recognise that the probability of convincing Harad on this one, is significantly lower than the probability of the Fellowship getting through the Gap of Rohan. 



> 'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'Harad! Harad is come!'
> Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Logic's Bane' he cried, and letting his axe fall covered his face.'




Whoops that's not a personal attack is it? I will be struck down! Harad - can I say how in this thread I have enjoyed your posts - you have played with logic in a masterly fashion!


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## Snaga (Jan 20, 2002)

No really! When you posted:



> And note that I am asked to argue against both sides. First that the Moria path is more logical, hence used, and Second, that the Moria path is less logical, hence used.



I laughed out loud! 

I have this picture of you as Sean Bean, being shot by one huge post, falling over, getting back up again, being shot down again etc etc! Except he went down after 4 arrows I think. I think we've posted about 5000 against your arguments and you still come back for more.  Maximum respect!


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## Bombadillodillo (Jan 20, 2002)

* As far as Moria is concerned, pick one explanation. You can not use both. It was more logical or it was less logical. *

The hope of Gandalf was that Saruman would think Moria the least logical. Gandalf's abilility to see the logic of the enemy gives Gandalf's reasoning the edge.

There is more to reason than logic as it has come to mean. I prefer the term reason or logos.


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## LadyEowyn (Jan 20, 2002)

Harad-

You believe that the reason Gandalf chose Moria is because it made a better story, right?


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## Grond (Jan 20, 2002)

LadyEowyn, I feel the logic issue is one that really isn't up for debate because Gandalf had logical reasons for going through Moria. And, yes, there were very logical reasons to attempt the Gap of Rohan. IMHO, either option would have been logical because someone was interpreting data and making a decision. It may have been a wrong decision but not an illogical decision. I see all of the options as having a logical premise. The High Pass....ok. The Mouths of Anduin....ok. The Gap of Rohan....ok. The Mines of Moria....ok and chosen.

This choice also does make for a better story by the author. As I've said before, JRRT had already primed us to desire to hear more about the wonderful places he hinted at in The Hobbit. What better way to highlight them than to send the party through the Mines and then on to Lorien where the Eldest Female Elf on Middle-earth lives. She is a dramatic link to the earlier ages and gives the Author a vehicle to educate us about them.

I don't think he had to send the party through Moria. I'm sure he was capable of writing just as interesting and thrilling story taking them through the Gap of Rohan.

One last thing, in the HoMe, Treason of Isengard, it details that Theodred fell at the Fords of Isen and that the Fords were lost. I wonder what Gandalf saw sitting on the Pinnacle of Orthanc that might have made him consider that Saruman was preparing to strike Rohan. Wouldn't that be all the more reason to avoid the Gap. Just a thought.


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## Harad (Jan 20, 2002)

Lady E,
My post disappeared into cyber space. Its a MUCH better story with Moria. To satisify this nitpicking the story could have said earlier:

1. Borormir fought his way thru the Gap on the way north, barely avoiding 22000 Uruk Hais
2. Gandalf definitely needed to go to Lorien, which he couldnt have done thru the Gap.


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## lilhobo (Jan 20, 2002)

hmmm correct me if i am NOt right as apposed to being wrong but, the exit and entrance to Moria would be hidden to most folks, and once the orcs had captured moria, they would have made other exits and entrances.....

the Fellowship had to say "friend" to enter, so the entrance was pretty much intact


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## Harad (Jan 20, 2002)

gandalf and aragorn left inthe other direction..no need to use the password...and well before Balin arrived, let alone got wiped out. There may have been other exits...but no one knew about them, certainly neither Gandalf, nor Aragorn, nor Gimli, not JRRT


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## LadyEowyn (Jan 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Harad _
> *Lady E,
> My post disappeared into cyber space. Its a MUCH better story with Moria. To satisify this nitpicking the story could have said earlier:
> 
> ...



Why do you care so much?


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## lilhobo (Jan 20, 2002)

well, thats why logically in ME terms , sneaking thru the Maze that was Moria would have been logical compared to being chased thru rohan even on horseback so that the badass lord could see their every move


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## lilhobo (Jan 20, 2002)

why does Harda care so much???? As someone mentioned previously, Harad is attemting to get inducted into the Nit picking Weenie Guild thru the back door


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## lilhobo (Jan 20, 2002)

Logically, Elrond and the dwarves should have sent an army down to take care of Saruman once his treason was evident.....Leaving Rohan and Gondor in the pincer that is Orthanc and Mordor was as silly as it was stupid.......

if it werent for the "forest spirits" and the ents, Saruman's 10,000 orcs and black men would have overrun helms deep and then on to Rivendell


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## LadyEowyn (Jan 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by lilhobo _
> *why does Harda care so much???? As someone mentioned previously, Harad is attemting to get inducted into the Nit picking Weenie Guild thru the back door  *



LOL. Oh, I see.


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## Grond (Jan 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by lilhobo _
> *Logically, Elrond and the dwarves should have sent an army down to take care of Saruman once his treason was evident.....Leaving Rohan and Gondor in the pincer that is Orthanc and Mordor was as silly as it was stupid.......
> 
> if it werent for the "forest spirits" and the ents, Saruman's 10,000 orcs and black men would have overrun helms deep and then on to Rivendell *


A record lilhobo, three consecutive posts on the same thread within 10 minutes. 

As to your assertion that Elrond and the Dwarves send their armies to attack, you might want to read the Appendix in the RotK. Had they exposed themselves, they would have been annihilated by the waiting armies of the Easterlings. As it was, they were under siege during much of the Fellowships travels. I say this in all sincerity lilhobo, you might try reading before you post.


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## lilhobo (Jan 21, 2002)

well there isnt an appendix in the ROTK, and i have the three Books in the one volume paperback

But the point we are making is still LOGIC !!!!!  If they had sent out their armies they would have been annihilated and yet if they had remained they would have still been annihilated IF it werent for the Ents........

Everyone is going on about how great it was to see Legolas and gimli counting their kills, but they only had ~40 each, when the enemy had 10, 000 out at the front

so lets get back to LOGIC


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## DGoeij (Jan 21, 2002)

There isn't much logic to set out for a journey right into the hearth of a heavily guarded land, surrounded by mountains, trampled by Orcs, so far off it will take you months to get there in the first place, knowing you're searched by every bad guy on the surface of the world, that the head of the council of supposedly good guys started out for himself and wishes for this Ring you happen to have, there isn't much logic in even trying is there?

Now to have that off my chest, they decided to set out and try anyway. Then at least give it a good try, IMHO
The Caradhras wouldn't let them pass. Darn, it was the best option. Now what?

Pass of Rohan: Someone else covered that pretty good, reaching it without being spotted was difficult enough, open grass land, even if you're able to cross the Isen, right under the nose of Saruman. They weren't even sure on whose side the Rohirrim where.
Going North? I'm not sure. That would have cost them a very long time. It would have been cold too. Did they have enough time? I don't know. About this road I am not sure why they didn't try. Maybe I've missed somebody explaining that. I'd like to know.

Going further south: Now that would have taken even longer, with the chance of being confronted with an overrun Gondor.
Moria: Unclear picture, supposedly not safe. Something called Durin's Bane, bad on its own, like the Caradhras. Gandalf has been there before and was able to sneak through it. The enemies where not expecting them to try that road. If they could manage to end up on the other side, they would be able to find refuge in Lothlorien for some R&R. 

I am probably not covering any new paths, but still Moria looks like the best option on this moment to me. Looking forward to replies.


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## JeffF. (Jan 23, 2002)

*Gap of Rohan vs Moria*

The terrain in ME has always greatly concerned me as far as realism is concerned. Mountains and rivers are more impassible than they are in real life. For a river like the Isen so near to its source to be impassible except for the Fords of Isen is unlikely. Unfinished Tales even specifies that strong swimmers could cross it elsewhere which means to me that the fellowship could have found a route not near to Saruman. That the Misty mountains would have such few passes is also unlikely. Given all that even in the terrain as described for ME the Gap was the logical choice (based solely on terrain). Given the additional staff analysis factors of 'enemy forces' changes the equation. Saruman's Isengard 'dominates' (to use the military term) the Gap of Rohan and he has a large army capable of searching thru it. The enemy forces of Moria are unknown and the orcs of the Misty mountains are thought not to have recovered from the War of Dwarves and Orcs and the Battle of Five Armies. Dwarves (Balin's company) may also be in Moria and the Rohirrim are across the Isen. An unknown factor which seems to greatly concern Gandalph is the proximity of the ring to Saruman. Evidently Gandalph is concerned that bringing the ring too close to Saruman is an unacceptable risk. While it is known that Saruman above all the rest of 'the Wise' had studied the Great Rings it is not known what the danger of the One Ring's proximity to him exactly is. Durin's Bane is the final unknown factor (unknown to Gandalph-known to us). Gandalph had no knowledge that a Balrog is in Moria as shown by his surprise at the narrow bridge. Since Moria is more of a 'choke point' (another military term) than the Gap of Rohan I believe that had Gandalph known of the Balrog he would not have chosen Moria (surely if the Balrog found the ring he would have become the new Dark Lord adn the West would be in as much danger as if Sauron himself had regained The Ring). He would have taken his chance in the wider Gap of Rohan. 

In anlyzing this I have tried to do it from the perspective of what Gandalph knew when he made the decision and not from the perspective of the arm chair tactician with greater knowlege and information than the historical figure actually had. In view of what Gandalph knew, taking terrain, enemy and friendly forces into account his tactical decision to enter Moria seems sound.


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## Grond (Jan 23, 2002)

Thank you JeffF for the simple and concise answer I was hoping someone would post. Your logic is sound and I hope that the nay sayers will look upon this reasoned approach with favor and finally give up the argument that Gandalf had no sound and logical reason for taking the Moria route.


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## Harad (Jan 23, 2002)

Thanks Jeff,

A sound analysis given certain constraints. IMO JRRT stacked the deck so that Gandalf would "know" less about Durin's Bane and "more" about Saruman.

On the plus side of the Gap that you didnt mention:

1. Boromir had negotiated it on his trip north.
2. Saruman could hardly spread his forces so thin, considering his preoccupation with Rohan to strongly hold the Gap. Any weak force, perhaps as many as 100 Orcs, could be handled by the Fellowship. Twang and chop. Slice and Fire!

On the minus side of Moria:
1. Gandalf "ignores" the lesson of Balin's silence for 25 years. 
2. Gandalf plays down the significance of Durin's Bane, in principal. What are the choices for something that has wiped out a thriving Dwarf city. What COULD Durnin's Bane be.

If Lorien is his hidden necessary goal. Then Moria is the only way.


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## Walter (Jan 24, 2002)

I really wonder if some people will ever realize, that repeating the same points over and over again doesn't give them any more weight, importance or justification...

...oh and, welcame back, Harad


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## Snaga (Jan 24, 2002)

Harad,

I'm not sure why I bother to respond... I must be overcome with joy at your return...



> IMO JRRT stacked the deck so that Gandalf would "know" less about Durin's Bane and "more" about Saruman.



On the one hand Gandalf had been at Orthanc a month or so earlier, and had known Saruman for 100s of years, and on the other he had twice been through Moria without seeing Durin's Bane. Call it stacking the deck if you will, but the experiences of Gandalf do kinda point to him knowing more about Saruman.



> On the plus side of the Gap that you didnt mention:
> 
> 1. Boromir had negotiated it on his trip north.
> 2. Saruman could hardly spread his forces so thin, considering his preoccupation with Rohan to strongly hold the Gap. Any weak force, perhaps as many as 100 Orcs, could be handled by the Fellowship. Twang and chop. Slice and Fire!



But Gandalf specifically does take into account Boromir's journey (previous posts refer). Since the second is your first attempt to counter my previous argument that Saruman was perfectly capable of closing the Gap I'll respond to 2, in more detail.

I gave a strategy for closing the Gap with 4000 orcs. We know that he has many times that number. My strategy was IMHO complete over-kill - but lets leave that aside. You believe that Saruman was 'pre-occupied' with Rohan and could not spread his forces so thin. In fact Saruman does not attack Rohan for some months after the Moria/Caradhras/Gap debate - not until the Fellowship reach Parth Galen in fact! So he can do what he likes with his troops. In any event, whatever Saruman's preoccupation with Rohan, is as nothing compared to his desire for the ring. He could and would spare the troops. And Gandalf knows it.

I'm sure you will find another argument though.


> A most unquenchable Harad. Alll Wizards should have a Harad or two in their care - to teach them the meaning of the word


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## Harad (Jan 24, 2002)

I dunno V of K. I suggest the thread of "Who has the Best Beard" as an alternate way to sharpen ones intellect. 

Sorry I missed your 4000 Orc Recipe--sounds disgusting--but if the Gap is 70 miles wide that leaves 57 Orcs/mile with no means of communication between groups of Orcs and the ability of the Fellowship to easily isolate and hack thru small groups. 

1. Gandalf had been to Orthanc: So Saruman is looking for the Ring. True. But the last fact either he or Gandalf knew was that the Ring was in the Shire. If I am Saruman with this knowledge, the FIRST thing I would do is put all my troops in the Gap of Rohan. Right after that I would take a flying leap off of Orthanc.

2. Gandalf specifically takes into account Boromir: He does, doesnt he? He says that things have changed since his trip, since Saruman has gone rotten. Lets turn this around. How much time has Saruman been bad and how much time does he have to prepare an impregnable defense of the Gap--not against a large army, mind you, but against a stealthy band of 9 heroes. 

3. With regards to Moria, Gandalf discounts the fact that Balin has been "outtolunch" for 25 years. Plenty of time to prepare a nasty welcome. But, really what COULD anyone find to worry about in Moria? Talk about whistling past the graveyard!

4. Saruman is either a goshdurn genius or a total idiot, not both. On the one hand he throws all his Orcs into the Gap based upon the reasoning of 1. On the third hand he is unconcerned about Rohan, despite the fact that Young Eomer is gallivanting around the grassy plains lopping the heads off his Orcs. Seems a bit of misplaced priorities if thats really what Saruman was doing. No, in fact, he was preparing for war against Rohan, since his plan with Worm was unlikely to result in their complete surrender.

5. As far as exasperation of posters goes, how can yours compare with mine? You have the comfort of like-minded fellow travelers, whilst I toil alone trying to see how a narrow passage with doors at both ends is preferred over a 70 mile wide Gap.


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## Tar-Palantir (Jan 24, 2002)

Ok, I'm gonna try this one again. In the last incarnation of this thread I put forth my theory as to why they went to Moria instead of another route. Unfortunately that thread got nuked. And since a certain degree of eloquence only comes to me once in a great while, I will apologize in advance for the cruditity of this post.

First of all, let's leave aside JRRT's motives for sending the Company through Moria - for the most part, everyone posting here has done that. It's unassailable and I'm impressed by the amount of thought that has gone into the deployment of Orcs across the Gap, among other things (the logic of the "story" as opposed to the author).

Here's the way I see it:

1) Gandalf was *not* gonna take them through the Gap. He gave enough arguments against it to convince me. He knew Saruman was bad news and he wasn't too sure about the Rohirrim either. 

2) The High Pass. Too far north.

3) Caradhras. It's clear from reading the text that it was Aragorn's idea to try it, not Gandalf's. It had been a long-standing argument between them. The storm was a surprise (and not very widespread). 

Ok, here's my theory: Gandalf, Aragorn, Gimli, and maybe Legolas knew what Durin's Bane was. The Balrog didn't leave Moria, otherwise I'm sure the news would have gotten around. Hence Aragorn's cryptic comments. So, they knew the Balrog was in Moria.
It's my contention that Gandalf knew on some level (probably subconsciously) that he had to become "The White" in order for the War of the Ring to be won. I'm *not* saying Gandalf committed suicide, but he always seemed a little too eager to go to to Moria to me (and not just to "get out of sight for a while" - although I think that plays into it). Aragorn knew the Balrog was there and that it was gonna be drawn to another Maia (maybe the Ring too). Again, hence his comments before they went in.

Alright, I've got my mithril coat on....so send your arrows!


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## Aldanil (Jan 24, 2002)

And all we "fellow travellers" really do, after all, in between the numerous clandestine conference-sessions of our close-minded conspiracy, is to wonder what precisely the point might be of plowing back and forth over the same "open" but barren ground, in the apparent hope of demonstrating to an undetermined someone that The Fellowship of the Ring could have been substantially improved if only the author had been blessed with a clearer sense of strategic logic. Speaking entirely for myself, I genuinely can't understand why this argument continues to drag on like this at such tedious length, when the best and only truly reasonable solution to this knotty narrative problem has already been posted: take boats from Rivendell down Loudwater to where it joins Hoarwell, south by Greyflood to the Sea and across the Bay of Belfalas, up that unnamed river on the border of Near Harad and so at last enter Mordor, quite unsuspected, by the unguarded southwest corner of the Ephel Duath. Find the flaws in that theory, if you can -- if you dare!

Alas that our poor dear Oxford don John Ronald had not the benefit of our sage advice...


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## lilhobo (Jan 24, 2002)

man, when i posted this thread it was a protest at threads being deleted whillynilly 

but this thread still drags on coz HARAD keeps repeating his LOGIC, and walter keep posting how useless it was to keep repeating LOGIC

PS. if they went the river route there would have been more kraken chasing them and it would have been a better story


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## Harad (Jan 24, 2002)

Aldanil very far now from his reward but still gamely going on,

1. I never said the FOTR would be improved by eschewing (god bless me) Moria. Quite the contrary.

2. I blame myself for not being able to explain simply enuf what seems obvious to me. The trouble is people can not put aside the slant introduced by JRRT and think in "real world" situations. Would the Gap have been closed? No. Could the Gap have been closed? Again no.

3. Your "scenario" could only be improved by equipping an Eagle with afterburners, strapping Frodo to one talon, Gollum to the other, and ending the story in one short chapter.

4. Finally, you act as if someone is holding a gun to your head, or, perhaps, you are holding your nose as you post. Either of those pictures doesnt reflect on me, now does it?


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## Grond (Jan 24, 2002)

It seems that everyone on this thread (that I can see) is in agreement that Gandalf took the only logical and correct path to accomplish all the things that needed to be done. Moria was both logical and "the right choice". Why not close the thread as everyone is in agreement???


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## Grond (Jan 24, 2002)

I must apologize. I have been PMed that Harad is still dissenting in the argument. Carry on!!!


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## lilhobo (Jan 24, 2002)

hehhehe, was just about to say that harad is still in confusion , so the jury is still out 

on the other hand he has started a new thread more specific to the issue at hand heheheh


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## DGoeij (Jan 25, 2002)

So the Fellowship was capable of passing the Gap or going thru Moria. A few patrols in the gap they could have handled, but crossing of the Isen could have been a problem. Gandalf had passed thru Moria twice, able to avoid anything nasty. But after those two options, then what?

After the Gap: Miles and miles of open graslands, not far away from Isengard. They weren't sure whose side the Rohirrim where on. 

After Moria: Short road to Lothlorien. Celeborn and Galdriel would welcome them and they would be safe during their stay there. It does sound a little better IMHO.


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## Aldanil (Jan 25, 2002)

Once again the dread Hammer of the Underworld (two postings back) hit the nail right on the head; as some King or other once put it, "Can't we all just get along [with our lives]?" Take the pledge now that from this moment forward no longer will we allow ourselves to fall into the Gap! 

Harad, if anyone is holding a gun to my head, it's only like Cleavon Little in Blazing Saddles; and while I have tried on occasion posting while holding my nose with one hand, it does tend to cut way down on my typing speed! One good (if extremely minor) thing has come out of my sarcastic alternative route for the Fellowship; I tracked down the name of that "unnamed" river on the border of Southland -- it's the Harnen (as only makes sense). Finally, dear foe-man, if you yourself don't think that "FOTR would be improved by eschewing Moria -- quite the contrary", then what is the point of this endless argument? Going under the Misty Mountains rather than through the Gap of Rohan isn't the only possible path that the Company could have gone, merely the best among several choices; the reasons for this are clearly articulated within the story by characters whose reliability on the subject you challenge only at some peril to your own credibility, quite beyond the author's motives in constructing a narrative whose wonders you yourself acknowledge. The semi-exasperated length of this posting, I recognize, does somewhat resemble using the Mace of Morgoth to pound sand down a rat-hole (no least offense intended, O Grond!), and I know that we're all here just to share our opinions; nonetheless, I'm reminded of Gandalf's comment on Caradhras: you "cannot burn snow!"

What say we give the Gap a rest for a while, and adjourn instead to the movie forum to start a new thread for some really productive nit-picking *about* Moria, like why the Dwarves are supposed to have built all those absurd masonry stairs, and the architectural stress-limits that bear on tall narrow columns of brickwork!


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## Harad (Jan 25, 2002)

Anyone taking the Hammer of the Underworld as an underpinning had best consider his own "architectural stress-limits." It never ceases to amaze how people so exasperated with these unimporant details, continue to post their final final and finally final ramblings.

Another source of amazement is the "Walter syndrome." Anybody he disagrees with is repeating the same details. Anybody he agrees with is given free reign to post the same tired arguments ad nauseum. And does it really add something if a new person posts the same exact points. Since the points have already been refuted what is this lone defender of truth justice and the integalacticefederationway to do? Now for me, I say let everybody post as much as they want. But I dont have the same discriminating tastes as those with the "Walter-syndrome." 

And if anybody is interested I reported Walters post on this thread to the moderators since it was off-point and merely an attack, but apparently such posts are allowed. Therefore, my response is not an attack.


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## Walter (Jan 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Harad _
> Another source of amazement is the "Walter syndrome." Anybody he disagrees with is repeating the same details. Anybody he agrees with is given free reign to post the same tired arguments ad nauseum. And does it really add something if a new person posts the same exact points. Since the points have already been refuted what is this lone defender of truth justice and the integalacticefederationway to do? Now for me, I say let everybody post as much as they want. But I dont have the same discriminating tastes as those with the "Walter-syndrome."
> 
> And if anybody is interested I reported Walters post on this thread to the moderators since it was off-point and merely an attack, but apparently such posts are allowed. Therefore, my response is not an attack.


Harad,

for all the obvious reasons I will not bother to reply with anything that would be considered "reasonably" or "logical" for we simply do not share the same understanding of those terms. Anyway, I think Your postings speak for themselves, hence I have nothing more to say to You, but will rather give You the honour to be the first one, that makes it onto my ignore-list - and Your "alter ego" as well, of course...Faretheewell!


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## ReadWryt (Jan 25, 2002)

Ok. lets just get something straight around here about this "Personal Attack" thing. Nobody is permitted to "Counter Attack" even if under personal attack. I thought I made that clear the first 20 times I said it but then, I'm often presuming stupidly.

As for what constitutes a personal attack, and I really am getting tired of all this crap as it detracts from the purpose of the Forum, it is as the Webmaster defined to me yesterday, "When they attack a person, that's a personal attack...not when they attack a post.". This is his policy on his forum. You can refute the deifinition of "Personal Attack" and drag out any authorative text you wish...you can even assume that you know better what the rules around here are then the Webmaster for all I care, but that is the rule and there is no reason to take up any problem you have with it outside of writing to him directly, and that is most likely an argument that would be short and unfruitful for any attempting it.

Now go play...


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## Harad (Jan 25, 2002)

Kwl...
Then I can say that your post is mindless drivel.
As far as you yourself are concerned...I have no comment.


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## Snaga (Jan 25, 2002)

Harad

You didn't miss my post on how Saruman could close the gap, you responded at the time. Trust me on that. RW zapped it, so it was clearly on the wrong side of the Dark/Light duality that was Harad the Grey! 

Don't worry, Gandalf couldn't even remember his name when he came back. Post-resurrection amnesia is quite normal.


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## Grond (Jan 25, 2002)

I'll try this again. I originally posted this on the wrong thread (I feel like an idiot) but will try it here. Please let me know if I'm on the wrong thread again.

There have been several arguments made against the Mines of Moria and for the Gap of Rohan. The point I brought up was that the Gap is very narrow where it meets the River Isen. The map shows that as the Fellowship headed South, they would be blocked by the River Isen running West to East. The possibility of swimming it would surely have been considered by Aragorn, Gandalf and Boromir, but as it appears that only one of the Hobbits swam (possibly Pippin?) that would have created a problem. The narrow passage would have been much easier to seal against the Fellowship and would have also forced them to come that much closer to Isengard, which both Gandalf and Aragorn wanted to avoid at all costs.

I just thought this should be brought up since elsewhere in the thread reference was made to the Gap being wider than 50 miles. I doubt their options for safe passage were anywhere near 50 miles across, but I could be wrong.


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## Snaga (Jan 26, 2002)

*Swimming hobbits*

I think Merry is the most likely swimmer. The Brandybucks, living by the Baranduin, were used to using boats. Not sure about Pippin or Frodo, but Sam definitely can't swim. Hence the need to be pulled out of the Anduin by Frodo.


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## Snaga (Jan 26, 2002)

Squeeky you are small but helpful. That is interesting. Does anyone know when Gandalf and Aragorn's visits would have been in relation to that? I don't remember reading anything more than what is in FotR (which is very vague).

(PS Bombadillo - yes delete it please. Thanks)


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## Harad (Jan 26, 2002)

Thanks squeek,

But I have some even more important dates to post. These are ESSENTIAL TO BE IGNORED if you want to maintain your opinions about Moria vs the Gap. Be warned:

All dates from 3018

July 4: Boromir sets out from Minas Tirith
July 10: Gandalf imprisoned in Orthanc
Septemeber 18: Black Riders cross the Fords of Isen
September 24: Gandalf crosses the Isen.
December 25: The Company...leaves Rivendell

So Gandalf must figure that between September 24 and December 25 Saruman has made the Gap of Rohan impregnable, while at the same time preparing for war against Rohan. Also on Feb 26, 3019 Saruman's forces are in Parth Galen. What a guy!

Also see
http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2302


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## Snaga (Jan 26, 2002)

Harad you are big and helpful 

Not though for making me doubt my opinion. You remind us all that Gandalf had two months of close observation of the strength of Isengard to base his opinions of the capabilities of Saruman. Given this he is hardly likely to have got it wrong is he?

Saruman of course does not close the Gap against lone travellers, or servants of Sauron who he pretends to serve, months before the formation of the Fellowship. But when his spies in Bree tell him that the ring is heading to Rivendell he lays his plan. His orcs are ready, so are his crebain. He has two months to spin a web to ensure that nothing passes through unnoticed from the north.


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## Snaga (Jan 26, 2002)

Thanks Squeaky. I've got a nice piece of Stilton waiting for you 

Gandalf entered Moria looking for Thrain - so between 2841 and 2850.


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## Harad (Jan 26, 2002)

> hardly likely to have got it wrong is he?



Absolutely not. Right after this study, he crossed the Gap without opposition, being both an enemy of Saruman and of Sauron.


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## lilhobo (Jan 26, 2002)

hmmm, this thread is getting more pedantic the longer it goes on, 

gandalf was on shadowfax, not even the nine can outride him. Saruman does not even need orc patrols in rohan , all he needs are spies and scouts to spot the nine "wallkers" and his orcs would outrun them


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## Harad (Jan 26, 2002)

1. the crebain did not spot them
2. no one reports any orcs at the gap
3. put frodo on shadowfax and you solved the problem
4. if you want a "technical" thread go to uruks and uruk-hais

it not as if this thread wasnt borrowed anyway...


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## lilhobo (Jan 26, 2002)

yeah why not put frodo and Arwen on shadowfax and fly all the way to morrrdor

and if i wanted a more technical thread i go answer the "which beard is the best" thread


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## Snaga (Jan 27, 2002)

You don't know whether or not the Crebain spotted them. Anyway the Wargs certainly did. After the whole Caradhras episode their cover was well and truly blown. 

Saruman hadn't blocked the Gap at the time Gandalf/Boromir went through but he had the orcs to do it. Maybe he never did block the Gap. For all I know his orcs could have been selling hotdogs to passing travellers from a van by the Fords to finance his purchases of Longbottom Leaf. But he COULD block the Gap, and Gandalf KNEW he could block the Gap.

Anyway Lilhobo there are many other threads so you don't have to post to this one just because you started it. Harad and I are having a nice friendly, nitpicking, pedantic and never-ending debate on this one, as is our right! Don't try and spoil our fun please!!!


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## Harad (Jan 27, 2002)

He didnt really start the thread. Eonwe did, but the original was lost when I was dragged into the chasm. 

I am certainly on the verge of stopping. I have gievn proof with no contradiction yet that Rohan held the Gap the whole time. For sure, JRRT can tell Gandalf to think whatever. He can tell Gandalf to think that Sauron has spies in their Longbottom, so he has to smoke in the dark. That doesnt make it logical. 

Gandalf was not a complete boob. He could gather intelligence about the Gap, much easier than he could about Moria. Instead of "knowing Saruman COULD block the Gap" he could "know Sauron COULD block Moria." And whose wargs were they anyway? They seem to be part of Sauron's spy apparatus, not Saruman's.



> "Listen Hound of Sauron!," he cried. "Gandalf is here. Fly if you value your foul skin."



Not only does Gandalf give away his identity, he also infers that these are spies of Sauron. Yet he chooses the path thru Moria, Sauron's mountain getaway.



> Aragorn: "...Holliin is no longer wholesome for us: It is being watched" Gandalf: "And in that case so is Redhorn Gate..."



And yet, they go that way, too.

The only way they dont go is the Gap, and thats the only way that was safe.


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## Snaga (Jan 27, 2002)

*Yawn* OK then lets call it quits for now. I could debate on - e.g. Moria is not 'Sauron's mountain getaway' but perhaps turning this thread into a war of attrition is not a good way to resolve this. I propose a truce.


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## Harad (Jan 27, 2002)

* Burp * Whatever. I could debate myself but I would go blind.



> 2480-sauron begins to people moria with his creatures





> Moria is not 'Sauron's mountain getaway'


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## Grond (Jan 27, 2002)

BTW, everyone has been removed from my ignore list and I have reread this thread in its entirety. I will continue the debate with Harad (it is entirely too early to give up hope that you and I may convince him VoK). 

Harad, the Gap of Rohan was but twenty miles across. (From Unfinished Tales, The Battles of the Fords of Isen). It is also clear from the text that the Fords of Isen were most certainly watched if not outright contested from the time of Gandalf's escape. I will give a detailed account of this later this week and present my evidence. It is also apparent that he who contols the Fords contols the Gap. 

I will give you that the twenty miles of the Gap are wider than the narrow exit of Moria. That would make the Gap the expected choice of the party and hence the much more probable choice for the party to take. That very statement makes the Moria choice a logical one. 

I also don't subscribe to the theory that Gandalf knowingly or even subconciously felt the desire to take the Moria route because of the I've got to get Elevated to White Status syndrome. He was too surprised at confronting an unknown (spell/counter-spell) in the Chamber of Mazarbul and his cold realization of what he faced at the bridge ("A Balrog...now I understand...what an evil fortune.... and I am already weary!") I think he felt the Gap was watched, expected and entirely too close to Isengard.

The Mines held the remote (note remote) possibility that Balin still lived, it was unexpected, hopefully unwatched (no orcs when Gandalf passed through before) and no one had seen Durin's Bane since Dain Ironfoot apparently saw it during the War of Dwarves and Orcs. Interestingly, no one apparently suspected that Durin's Bane was a Balrog. One can only assume that everyone thought it was a great troll or some other evil like the watcher. Who knows??? But most importantly, and something that continues to appear ignored, both Gandalf and Aragorn had been through Moria before. And, yes, Aragorn had evil memories. 

It appears that Gandalf had made up his mind to take this route or the Caradhras route while in Imladris. The only explanation for this would have been for his desire to go to Lorien. Nothing else makes sense. It should be noted that this adds to the logic of taking the Moria route and doesn't detract from it. Gandalf felt the Fellowship would need a break by then and was sure that Galadriel would be able to protect and advise. 

Was the Gap of Rohan more logical? Maybe, but certainly closer to Saruman. Was the Moria route less logical? Probably not, but certainly more dangerous, but with the higher reward of getting counsel from Galadriel and Celeborn and a rest in Lorien. 

One can debate all day about the choices of the parties. I agree that some choices appear bad, some good, some seemingly illogical and others totally logical. That is what makes it a story. We can't reflect them in any real and logical light because they are FICTION. The author's mind and dream. It's the best book I've ever read. Apparently it isn't everyone of this forum's favorite. That's what the world and this forum is all about. People with different opinions.


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## Harad (Jan 27, 2002)

The Fords of Isen have the following dates associated with them:

Sept 24, 3018: Gandalf passes them without opposition going North.
Feb 25, 3019: Theodred falls at the First Battle of the Fords of the Isen.

from Unfinished Tales, the Battles of the Fords of the Isen:


> Only here, south of Isengard, was it possilble for large forces, expecially those heavily armed or mounted, to cross the river.



Already this doesnt apply to the Fellowship...but lets proceed. I also dont find "20 miles" as the size of the Gap. My map's scale shows something like 70 miles.

The story does reinforce my contention that the Fords were either uncontrolled or controlled by Rohan. The army of Saruman comes unexpectedly _from Isengard_. Theodred "descried other forces hasting to the Fords, though their strength could not be guessed. He at once ordered a retreat." And "when Theodred gained the Fords the day was waning." The implication is not that Theodred fought his way to the Fords, but that he retreated to the Fords ahead of the enemy.

It all is moot since nobody, except me, cares that the Fords were not held by Saruman. The new argument is that "Gandalf thought the Fords were held by Saruman."

So if you believe that:

1. Gandalf thought Moria was ok because Balin was healthy but decided to take a 25 year break in communications, Sauron's populating Moria with his creatures starting 600 years before was an exaggeration, and Durin's Bane was a myth;

and

2. Gandalf was too lazy or unresourceful to check what he himself saw firsthand two months earlier (and 2 months after his imprisonment at Orthanc) and Boromir knew: that the Fords were not controlled by Saruman;

then, of course it full speed ahead into Moria.

Once again, if Lorien is NECESSARY then they have to go thru Moria to get there. And once again, its a better story to go thru Moria. That's not what I am discussing.


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## lilhobo (Jan 28, 2002)

yeap, you are so perfectly coorect about boromir, thats why boromir rode up the theodred at the ford of isen and told him to come to the council of elrond once hes had some KFOs, Kentucky fried Owcs


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## Grond (Jan 28, 2002)

And once again Harad, all you've done is given a few meager examples of why the Fords may have appeared more enticing a trip than the Mines of Moria. You have totally failed to respond to my post's logical evaluation of the decision and you have simply restated the same thing you've been saying for the last twenty or so posts. 

One last time.... Gandalf had passed over the Fords on 09/24 on Shadowfax and also knew that Saruman would be even more vigilant since Gandalf's escape. He also had seen a good portion of the size of Saruman's force while he was held captive. He had surmised (see Chapter The White Rider in TT) that Saruman would be at war or approaching war with Rohan and the area of the Gap would be a hotbed of activity. I still am not arguing that the Gap would not have been a logical path; hence, making Moria a less logical path and thus, more unexpected, and thus more preferred. Why don't you take on my last post topic by topic and see if you can find any holes. 

As for the width of the Gap, try looking in the index of UT and it gives it to you there. As I stated previously, the Gap is narrowed considerably when one takes the Fords of Isen into account and would be less even than the 20 miles in the index. As far as the River Isen being no problem for a party of 8, that is mere speculation on your part. Could this simply be a case of logic only applying where Harad wants it to apply? Take a stab at it. I've never claimed to be perfect.... Heck, I ain't even claimed to be right in this case.... but, at the least I am open minded. Now come on Harad, have a go at it and see where the holes are.


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## DreamingDragon (Jan 28, 2002)

Didn't Gandalf leave the decision up to the RingBearer? Not a good idea if you ask me........ but here's a thought for the day...if they HADN'T gone the Moria, and the Balrog not been ****** off and dragged him into the bowels of hell, would Gandalf still be grey???


think about it...talk amongst yourselves......

by the way, I'm new to this forum. Pleased to meet you all.



Edit: Foul language, poorly camouflaged, totally edited.


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## Harad (Jan 28, 2002)

I dont believe your post deserves any more comment--if you examine my initial response, it responds to the small number of new issues you raise. Nevertheless, I will take the time to do what you ask. First I looked in the UT index and still do not find "20 miles."



> It is also clear from the text that the Fords of >Isen were most certainly watched if not outright
> >contested from the time of Gandalf's escape. I



Unproveable, and probably wrong considering Gandalf, Boromir, and Theodred (ignored posts above). Gandalf after 2 months of imprisonment in Orthanc, rides across the Fords without any reported difficulty on Sept 24. 

Boromir left Minas Tirith on July 4 (independence day?) and traveled 110 days to Rivendell, thus arriving about Oct 22. When did Boromir cross the Isen? The Fellowship took 14 days from Rivendell to Hollin. Its probably twice as far, but Boromir could travel faster than a party with hobbits, so I reckon that Boromir crossed the Isen AFTER Gandalf, another piece of evidence that Gandalf ignored.



> >I will give you that the twenty miles of the Gap >are wider than the narrow exit of Moria. That



Nice of you to admit that 20 miles (I still say 70 miles) is larger than 5 feet.



> > Gap the expected choice of the party and hence >the much more probable choice for the party to >take. That very statement makes the Moria choice >a logical one.



Here we go again. The incredible reasoning that Moria was less logical, hence the right path, and in other places, more logical, hence the right path. Seldom do I see such confusion in the same argument. Congrats.



> > I also don't subscribe to the theory that >Gandalf knowingly or even subconciously felt the



Thank you for this. 



> > The Mines held the remote (note remote) >possibility that Balin still lived, it was



Completely discountable by all except the terminally optimistic Gimli. Not a word from Balin for 25 years. BTW even Gimli says at the CoE:

"..no dwarf has dared to pass the doors of Khazad-dum for many lives of kings, save Thror only, and he perished. At last however, Balin listened to whispers, and resolved to go; and though Dain did not give leave willingly...For a while we had news and it seemed good...Then there was silence, and no word has ever come from Moria since."

Seems rather cheerful, don't it?



> >Gandalf passed through before) and no one had >seen Durin's Bane since Dain



Its pretty clear that Balin's folk saw Durin's Bane, but they werent talking. 



> >Interestingly, no one >apparently suspected
> > that Durin's Bane was a Balrog. One can only
> >assume that everyone thought it was a great troll



How likely that a great troll wiped out a dwarf kingdom? JRRT didnt allow Gandalf to use normal reasoning power here. Furthermore, Balin's likely demise demonstrated that whatever it was, "its back." However Gandalf was "instructed" by JRRT to ignore this.



> >Aragorn had been through Moria before. And, yes, >Aragorn had evil memories.



By my reckoning Aragorn had been thru Moria 9 years before Balin entered, or 34 years before. As for Gandalf, I dont know but it also had to be more than 25 years before. In both of their cases they knew something was bad there, and their journeys were alone (?). And MOST IMPORTANTLY they did not have the Ring with them and Sauron on the hunt. Sauron began populating Moria with his creatures 600 YEARS before, so one could anticipate trouble, having just barely escaped Sauron's clutches outside of Rivendell. 



> > only explanation for this would have been for >his desire to go to Lorien. Nothing else makes >sense. It should



As I said--my posts are the ones that are ignored-- if reaching Lorien is a NECESSITY, then Moria is required, regardless of all its drawbacks. 



> > Was the Gap of Rohan more logical? Maybe, but >certainly closer to Saruman. Was the Moria route >less logical? Probably not, but certainly more



How can I possibly respond to such a mishmash? These sentences are self-contradictory.



> >dangerous, but with the higher reward of getting >counsel from Galadriel and



Again and again and again: Lorien is not an issue in this disscussion. This disscussion is only about the relative merits/dangers of Moria vs. the Gap. I concede that only thru Moria can you get to Lorien. But Gandalf does not reveal Lorien to be a necessity in his plan.

Examine the concept of advanced scouting. Gandalf thought (ignoring all evidence) that the Fords might be held. He could send Aragorn and Legolas as advance scouts in the area. Or how about an Eagle? His scout would tell him that the Fords were not held. Then he could lead the Fellowship via the Fords just as he alone had done 2 months previously. Getting thru Rohan itself was no problem. Ugluk and his lads did it, and others argue, many more Orcs under the "watchful" eyes of Theodred and Eomer.

So you have it:

1. Moria constricted--populated by Orcs and Durin's Bane that had certainly wiped out Balin.

2. The Gap--wolves, crebain, and Saruman, but a MUCH larger area, at worst contested, and with a friendly force, the Rohirrim (again ignored by Gandalf). 


As an aid in further discussion:

Please decide once and for all, is Moria less logical or more logical? Then stick to that decision. 

Let me help: 

1. You can say its less logical, and thus it would fool the bad guys--but then you would agree with my argument.

Or,

2. You could say it was more logical. But then you cant use the argument that it would fool the bad guys anymore. 

Get it?


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## lilhobo (Jan 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Harad _
> *
> As an aid in further discussion:
> 
> ...



harad, i havent bothered to read all this thread but i am gonna reason with u for the last time 

1. the constriction in Moria is whooohooo the Bridge of Khazad-dum NOT exits and entrances (its NOT written but you can assume there are many of them) If the dwarves had held that, then they would have survived (go find the quotes i cant be bothered

2. secondly, rohan is not trusted by the council, since they have NO representatives at the council of elrond

3. NO one has made the arguement that gandlaf the the council used ILLOGIC to fool saruman and sauron 

4. everyone (i hope) has used the LOGIC gandalf used that Saruman is a mighty wizard who is eyeing the Ring and would know his land inside out, WITHOUT having to post an orc at every square inch of the Isengard and rohan

PS. although sending a few hobbits on this mission is pretty illogical


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## Grond (Jan 28, 2002)

Well Harad!!! I finally get it!!! What a total crock of crap I and 90 million other Tolkien fans have been reading for the last fifty odd years. The entire logic of going through Moria is indefensible and downright wrong. The Gap of Rohan makes so much more sense that I can't believe anyone would read the LotR drivel and like or believe a single word of it. The illogic of Frodo at Amon Hen, the stupidity of allying one's self with a known enemy and covetor of the Ring (Gollum). The craziness of an entire forest and it tree herds standing up for good after countless years of silence. The absence of logic pervades the works. My God... how could I have been so blind??? 

It could have been so much better had JRRT simply followed the logic of Harad and infused some sense into the works. What a stupid, asinine work. I'm throwing all my copies away.


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## Aldanil (Jan 28, 2002)

*As Emerson said in that letter to Whitman*

"I Greet You at the Beginning of a Great Career" and bid congratulations on thy move to Moderation, O Mighty Mace of Morgoth! Or is that Moderatorism, perhaps, sprung forth by the bayou from the dread calm of thy deep reading, O Baleful Banger of Bauglir? I think it grand, Grond, that thus you should ascend to administrative office!


(as just another heedless leaf on the Tree of our Forum, I'm sorry for having missed the chance in the most recent election to add my vote to your victorious margin of elevation)



And, more to the thread-point at hand, I must of course concur with your wise remark on the woeful shortsightedness of us many millions of readers this half century on. Apparently, if we can just prevail upon the Grey Pilgrim himself to apologize for his obfuscation, cough it up personally and come clean at last that the real plan was leading to Lothlorien all along, then we can finally go on, go proudly now and openly on, go on down into Moria, and our dogged and doughty logician dear South may return in peace to those sun-baked sand-dunes of his far desert home, where wisdom shimmers like the promise of a distant oasis, and the hot sun of Harad burns the seeker quite blind. Until the day of that longed-for departure's arrival, I dolefully deem, all we hapless readers can hope to hear is the empty wind whistle through the Gap of Rohan...


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## lilhobo (Jan 28, 2002)

oh so if you can cause ruckus on the forum, offside the greatest poster, bellitle the greatest film and Oscar elect director, 

only then can you receive the great honour of being a moderator


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## Talierin (Jan 28, 2002)

No, it's because he came in third in the Moderator Election.


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## Grond (Jan 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by lilhobo _
> *oh so if you can cause ruckus on the forum, offside the greatest poster, bellitle the greatest film and Oscar elect director,
> 
> only then can you receive the great honour of being a moderator  *


I've never belittled the film or it's director. I've simply said it could have been better.


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## Aldanil (Jan 29, 2002)

Though I can't claim to match the scorn-free standard of that first sentence, Hammer your honor, I have tried to say just the same as your second, if not always so simply.


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## Grond (Jan 29, 2002)

lilhobo, I forgot to include in my response to you that evil hammers are supposed to cause a ruckus in the forum. As for offsiding anyone, all I did was say "hut hut...... hut...hut". It was a quick count and he took himself offsides.  

(To any of my friends who don't know American Football, PM me and I'll explain offsides to you.)


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## Harad (Jan 29, 2002)

I guess its a shame that my posts are uninterpretable by some. There is a set of plusses and minuses for any particular path that Gandalf might choose. Two good reasons for choosing Moria are to get to Lorien and to make it a better story. 

To motivate this choice, the book is cooked. I just cant agree that Orcs in a cave are any better than wolves in a gap, Durin's Bane is better than Saruman.

This could be my tagline: if anybody who stubbornly adheres to their opinion accuses me of being stubborn, then...


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## Grond (Jan 29, 2002)

Harad, a few moons ago on a similar thread now residing in a galaxy far, far away, I stated that the Gap of Rohan would have been a logical choice for the Fellowship to have travelled. I also stated that I felt JRRT would have written just as great a story routing the Fellowship through the Gap. You could have introduced conflict with the Dunlenders and fought packs of ravening wolves. JRRT could have had the Fellowship fight in the Battle of the Fords of Isen and rescue Theodred. There is no doubt that could have been done. 

Unfortunately, that is not the route the author had the Fellowship take and all your logic about the stupidity or lack of logic of taking Moria will never change the direction of the book. It happened that way. 

The Gap would have been a great choice!!


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## Aldanil (Jan 30, 2002)

He speaks with the glad even-handedness of a born Moderator, our Mace!


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## JeffF. (Jan 31, 2002)

*Response from another perspective*

My previous post on this subject was from the point of view of Gandalph and what he knew about the enemy situation, terrain and friendly situation at the time he made his decision. It was basically a military analysis of his decision.

This is another view. In my opinion Gandalph did not really have a 'plan' rather he was trusting in instinct and fate. He foresaw that Frodo might find help in unknown ways along his quest, as he did from Gollum and Faramir. Gandalph chose the shortest route and one where he could gain the best assistance. 

Hindsight tells us that the Fellowship sojourn in Lothlorien was key to the success of the quest. Without Lembas, Elven cloaks, elven rope, and very importantly Galadriel's light Frodo and Sam would not have made their journey thru Mordor. 

The route thru Rohan and Gondor offered no such similar items of similar importance. In fact it was liable to men being tempted by the Ring whose resistance to temptation would be no greater than Boromir's.

Though Gandalph probably didn't know specifically about the items Galadriel would bestow he probably had some idea that her powers would be useful. His route was probably chosen by fate, by the powers of the West and not by some analysis of the pros and cons of each course of action.


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## Harad (Feb 1, 2002)

There is no question that the Lorien gifts were crucial for many parts of the rest of the story. If part of Gandalf's gift of leadership was to intuit the future to that extent, then he could choose to risk a more dangerous path thru Moria to reap those rewards. That is what I believe he did.

On a sidelight, having just viewed the movie again, it was interesting how many times Boromir repeats his advice to use the Gap. This is especially so since to the movie audience the Gap doesnt have any particular meaning. Even at the last when they enter Moria and see that it is in rather worse shape than Gimli's optimistic prediction, they appear to be headed to the Gap before the Watcher in the Water intervenes. Why would PJ want to include this nifty idea? Made me sit up and take notice.


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## Snaga (Feb 1, 2002)

I think PJ thought that having them walk into Moria, see a few bodies and turn back was a way to increase the fear factor. I.E. convince the audience that Moria was worse than the Gap. (Is he a friend of yours?!!) This in turn prepares the audience for the perils to come... i.e. it builds suspense.

In the book JRRT does this by emphasising the pitch black of the darkness, and the yawning chasms they had to jump across, and by spending a whole chapter on 'the Journey in the Dark'.


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## Brown Ribbon (Feb 11, 2002)

Couple of points....

Firstly, from Unfinished Tales, The Quest of Erebor, Gandalf talks about Sauron taking shape in Mordor before he had chance to attack Lorien and Rivendell;

'Then everything grew dark. And yet that was not his original plan; and it was in the end a mistake. Resistance still had somewhere where it could take counsel free from the shadow. How could the Ringbearer have escaped if there had been no Lorien or Rivendell? And those places might have fallen, I think, if Sauron had thrown all his power against them first and not spent more than half of it in the assault on Gondor.'


I think this shows us that Gandalf always wanted to to take the Fellowship through Lorien, as Harad guesses.

They were in danger as soon as they left Rivendell, wherever they went they were in danger. The land was empty (Enedwaith), openly hostile (Isengard/Dunland) or unknown (Rohan). Far better to head to somewhere openly friendly with the cause. Take stock from there, then go on. 
Boromir was adamant about the Gap of Rohan becuase he never saw Lorien as an ally, rather some witch realm to be feared.

Another quote, again from UT ' The Palantiri' shows why Moria was such an attraction. Concerning the power and restrictions of the seeing stones, it goes......'they could look through a mountain as they could look through a patch of dark or shadow, but see nothing within that did not receive some light. They could see through walls but see nothing within rooms, caves, or vaults unless some light fell on it; and they could not themselves provide or project light.'

Now Gandalf is very concerned with secrecy on the road, he is always aware that they can be seen, and does his best not to attract attention. Whilst choosing the routes, he would have taken both Saruman and Sauron into account. On one hand, the Misty Mountains was populated with Sauron's servants, but if they went through the Gap of Rohan they risked being caught on the other horn of the dilemma.
Gandalf seemed genuinely surprised to find that Saruman posessed the Orthanc Stone, but he surely knew that the Ithil Stone was in the hands of Sauron. UT hints as much.
If Moria could provide them with absolute secrecy from these stones (seeing as they could make nothing out in the dark) then that's another point in favour of the mines!

Thirdly, Unfinished Tales cites the presence of Sauron's servants in Moria as being 'not particularly numerous', giving the example of how Gollum was able to live undetected for a long time whilst being almost as wanted at the Barad Dur as the Bagginssssess.

Sorry if this is a bit wordy by the way. I just think that there was more to choosing Moria than a hope that Balin would be in with the kettle on and a nice seedcake cooling on the windowsill


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## Harad (Feb 11, 2002)

Oh boy. My favorite thread again!

I agree with BR up to the point. Then, I am amazed that the same quote can be interpreted in opposite ways:



> they could look through a mountain as they could look through a patch of dark or shadow, but see nothing within that did not receive some light. They could see through walls but see nothing within rooms, caves, or vaults unless some light fell on it; and they could not themselves provide or project light.



The Fellowship needed light to find their way thru Moria, and used light, provided by Gandalf or torches, or in one case sunlight thru an opening in the chamber. This is precisely what the Palantir needed to see INSIDE Moria.

Furthermore, since the Palantir were not a synoptic (wide-field) viewing device but could be used to focus in on a particular spot, Moria was a FAR better target than the wide open spaces of the Gap of Rohan to make use of the Palantir, e.g. focus the Palantir on the either of the doors of Moria and wait for a party carrying a torch to appear.


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## Brown Ribbon (Feb 11, 2002)

they were guided by a faint light from Gandalf's staff, which sounds to me to be about as candescant as a maglite. I don't think they would have been particualarly noticeable. Certainly it would have been difficult for Saruman/Sauron to make out much beyond Gandalf's bearded chops, so crucial intelligence like the number of the Fellowship, their races etc. would have remained hidden.

Assuming, of course, that their cover wasn't already blown


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## Harad (Feb 11, 2002)

What is easier to see than a light in an otherwise completely dark environment? And what about the chamber with the sunlight shining in? A perfect place to focus the palantir.


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## Snaga (Feb 11, 2002)

Harad

Do you think that Sauron focused in on one of the Gates of Moria, and kept staring at it relentlessly for days, if not weeks until someone came by?

Just interested because that's how it sounds. Add that to:
- it takes a lot of concentration to keep focused, so no distractions (like running Mordor)
- you can't really delegate the task 'Hey Grishnakh, the Lidless Eye and the Mouth of Sauron are going to the pub, watch the Palantir for us while were out, will you?'


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## aragil (Feb 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Variag of Khand _
> *- you can't really delegate the task 'Hey Grishnakh, the Lidless Eye and the Mouth of Sauron are going to the pub, watch the Palantir for us while were out, will you?' *



Of course Sauron wouldn't say that. Grishnakh couldn't be trusted with a burnt out match.
And Harad, Goodgulf's light is clearly described as being 'half as bright as a dead firefly'. Not the sort of thing that you could pick up in the Palantir. At least, no brighter than the gleam in the Ballhog's eyes.


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## Harad (Feb 11, 2002)

Fellows, fellows, let stop bickering, about who killed who. This is supposed to be a happy ocassion.

The Palantir argument was meant to be a contrast between using the Palantir in Moria or using the Palantir in the Gap. Every objection you give to using the Palantir in Moria gets multiplied for using it in the Gap.


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## Snaga (Feb 12, 2002)

Fair enough - I just wanted to illustrate that the Palantir wasn't like having a radar on all the time.

Anyway I wanted to look at this from a slightly different perspective. Harad, you like the argument 'JRRT steered them into Moria because it was good for the plot'. On one hand I'm not too keen on that because its not arguing the logic within the book, and on the other hand it suggests JRRT couldn't make a good story about going through the Gap.

On the third hand, it actually is quite true. I'm getting my teeth into some of HoME - in particular Vol 7 Treason of Isengard. I haven't got 1-6. I found 7-9 in a bookshop in Stratford-upon-Avon, and bought them without hesitation. Anyway...

Its clear that Moria was one of the key locations that JRRT wanted to get into the story right from the outset. Its one of the things that, after publication of the Hobbit, readers always wanted to know about. The Fellowship were going through Moria before the Gap existed, before Saruman existed, before Frodo was called Frodo!

Interesting things to note:
- At one stage JRRT envisaged the Balrog to have been sent by Sauron quite recently
- At another point he was to have Gandalf fight a nazgul on the bridge
- In one draft Aragorn was pro- and Gandalf anti-Moria
- The Balrog started quite small (man-high) but got bigger in re-writes
- In one version Legolas takes a hit from an orc arrow as they run to the bridge
- etc etc

Getting into Moria was never an issue. However Tolkien paused for a long time, before writing how they got back out again.

Anyway, that's my way of posting how fascinating these books are. In some parts you get close to the page turner quality of LotR: you know what JRRT will eventually decide on, but you get some magical ideas that he tries out, and then casts aside. (e.g. a precursor of Fatty Bolger gets kidnapped by the Nazgul at Crickhollow, and rescued by Gandalf! Wow!!!)


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## Harad (Feb 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Variag of Khand _
> *I found 7-9 in a bookshop in Stratford-upon-Avon, and bought them without hesitation. Anyway...
> *



Hey! Stop lording it over us provincials. 

It is great to see the development. I dont know if you got a chance to see my "Original Version of the Hobbit Thread" but the important part is:

http://www.ringgame.net/riddles.html 

which shows how much Gollum changed in the tailing.


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## aragil (Feb 12, 2002)

Us provincials? I live in one of the most provincial states in the Union, and I just bought v. 7-9, 12, and Letters off the shelf. I also ordered volumes 5 & 10 from Amazon last week, and got them within 4 days!


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## Harad (Feb 12, 2002)

Sure, but did you get it at Stratford-Upon-the-lahdidah-Avon?


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## Snaga (Feb 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Harad _
> *Sure, but did you get it at Stratford-Upon-the-lahdidah-Avon? *



Hmmm that's fair comment about Stratford. I actually live in gritty urban Coventry!

Anyway surely there must be a bookshop in Umbar?


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## Harad (Feb 12, 2002)

Oh sure, "The Merry Oliphaunt" on the Harad Road is where I do most of my shopping for scrolls and parchments.


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## Snaga (Feb 13, 2002)

Hmm I detect a touch of sarcasm... or is that irony? Or mere scorn!

Anyway what is this provincial outpost bereft of bookshops that you live in?


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## Harad (Feb 13, 2002)

None of the above. Its sheer envy for someone who can blithely shop on "Stratford-on-the-Avon." I've been at Crouton-on-the-Hudson but its just not the same.


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## Snaga (Feb 13, 2002)

Well in that case I guess I can envy you being able to get to NYC without too much bother at a guess? Also some website called 'Hopelessly Romantic' appears to recommend the charms of Crouton.


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## Dhôn-Buri-Dhôn (Feb 13, 2002)

I'm lucky if I can get to Papa-Gino's-on-the-Food-Court.


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## Harad (Feb 15, 2002)

Finally:

Gandalf took the Fellowship thru Moria because he wanted to visit the Chamber of Records Book Store and get his copy of "Balin's Diary."


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## Snaga (Feb 15, 2002)

Yes, and luckily for him they were selling of damaged end of line stock at bargain prices!


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## MarkJ (Feb 16, 2002)

*First post.*

Hello all,
I apologise for carrying on the discussion (ahem), but Im new, so I thought I deserved one crack at it. I'm not sure if the following points have been raised, if so I once again apologise.
1. I always assumed that one of the main disadvantages of the Gap route was not the Gap itself but the miles of open ground the fellowship would have to cover. They have already encountered two sets of spies as far north as Moria, so if one assumes some kind of logical search pattern on Saruman's part surely it is highly likely they would encounter more, and more highly concentrated spies the closer to Orthanc they went.
2. The question is not whether Saruman actually held the gap but whether or not Gandalf judged that he might. I do not agree that Gandalf could have found this out easily. Harad's suggestions were 
(a) An eagle: I am not aware of Gandalf being able to summon eagles, but in any case one assumes that the eagle would be even easier to spot that the fellowship, and would then lead the crebain straight back to the company. ( Please no one start a African/European swallow style debate about comparitive air velocities ) 
(b) Send Aragorn: surely time is a factor, If Saruman' forces are growing by the time Aragorn returned Orthanc would have even more troops at its disposal, and meanwhile the rest of the company are sitting about waiting to be discovered.
3. I see no reason why it is implausible that Saruman would have the man-power to successfully guard the gap. I have absolutely no idea of orc breeding rates, so that is a bit of a moot point. However, I am unclear why the fact he does not attack Boromir leads the conclusion that he could not. Saruman attempts to maintain a friendly front throughout and I dont see why he would tip his hand by attacking a lone horseman, of no import to him.
Right ( gosh this is a long post, hope you will bear with me, nearly done), now for the comparitive risk bit.
Now i am not for a minute suggesting the Fellowship would rather encounter a Balrog than a scout troop of orcs/wargs whatever. However, they were in a situation where any mistake could be one too many. If one orc rode off to raise the alarm, or they were spotted by one crow they wouldnt get far in a flat race, with the nearest sure sactuary Gondor. This would lead to consequences just as dire as meeting a Balrog, in the long run. In Mordor they didnt have to avoid patrols, indeed they may well have dared to hope they were not specifically sought - very unlike the situation with the Rohan route. Even if they were spotted they had the chance of an escape through the tunnels, where it is possible they might lose pursuit and had the sanctuary of Lorien not too far off. 
Well i hope that poses some reasonable questions. I look forward to any responses.


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## Harad (Feb 16, 2002)

Welcome MarkJ and here are "stubborn" responses,

1.


> I always assumed that one of the main disadvantages of the Gap route was not the Gap itself but the miles of open ground the fellowship would have to cover



or put another way, those are miles of "open" ground that any search for them would have to cover. Moria had a constricted entrance and exit. Note the fact that the Fellowship was attacked at both ends.

2.


> The question is not whether Saruman actually held the gap but whether or not Gandalf judged that he might. I do not agree that Gandalf could have found this out easily.



Gandalf gets an Eagle whenever he really needs one. As far as scouting is concerned, the Fellowship did it when they wanted:


> "Farewell," he said to Gandalf, "I go to find the Sun!" Then swift as a runner over sand [Legolas] shot away, and quickly overtaking the toiling men, with a wave of his hand as he passed through them, and sped into the distance, and vanished around a rocky turn.



3.


> I see no reason why it is implausible that Saruman would have the man-power to successfully guard the gap.


Is that speaking as someone with experience in stopping 9 stealthy characters from penetrating an open area of foothills at least 42 miles at its narrowest? Consider modern events to see how easy it is to stop a few people from escaping over grounds even with modern surveillance techniques.

If you want to assume that the fact that he did not attack either Gandalf (and why wouldnt he attack Gandalf who had recently escaped from Orthanc?) or Boromir, then the logic seems to be: since he didnt attack them, then he was in control of the pass. Why not assume the opposite, which is not only more likely, but turns out to be true.



> However, they were in a situation where any mistake could be one too many.



Eggzactly. So dont pin yourself down in a single location with constricted access on both ends.

HOWEVER, if Gandalf considered it a NECESSITY to go to Lorien, then Caradhras or Moria were the only ways to go considering that they went south from Rivendell.


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## MarkJ (Feb 16, 2002)

Thankyou kindly for the response. I don't consider the reply stubborn and I hope you will not consider me so, for replying in turn. I thought I addressd many of the points you raised in the original but I shall explain more clearly.

I do not, in fact have any experience in detecting travellors, but my point was that I, and I assume you, also have no experience in raising orcs. For all you or I know Saruman had enough orcs, wargs, crows and whatever other unnamed watchers to stand shoulder to shoulder right across the gap. There is no theoretical limit to his man/bird power. Or at least so Gandalf may have feared.

I thought my point about the fact they had already been detected twice, even before they reached Moria, raised big questions about relying on space to protect them.

Gandalf may indeed get an eagle at many opportune times, but, and correct me if I am wrong, this is always by chance. He never actually summons one at will. For one to simply turn up would surely be "cooking the books" as you put it.

The issue with scouting is not that they are opposed to it in principle it is a question of distance and time. Either they would all travel somewhat towards Isengard, then send on Aragon/Legolas. However they would be walking closer to the possible danger in the first place, and would then have to make the same dangerous journey back to where they started, if in fact the gap was guarded. Otherwise they would have to wait in the open near Moria/Carhadras for some considerable time, while someone make the whole journey to the gap alone. During all this time Saruman's forces would be growing, and information would scarcely be current when the scout returned.

By no means was I suggesting the fact that Saruman did not attack Boromir or Gandalf was proof he had troops. Sorry if that wasnt clear but that would be ridiculous. I was merely suggesting that the only explanation for not attacking was not that Saruman couldnt, but it may be that he wouldnt. My explanation for not attacking Boromir is already stated and in the case of Gandalf it may well be that he did not want to risk his main strength when there was no hope of the ring as reward. Also Saruman's evident arrogance might lead him to beleive Gandalf is not as big a threat as the reader does. These are merely plausible possibilities intended to refute your use of these events as proof.

The point I thought I made was that the benefit of Moria was that they were not specifically sought there. The watcher was not known to Gandalf so should not be considered in his reasoning. At the the other "constricted entrance", which you deem so fearful, let us not forget that there was a guard there. However it was dispatched by Aragorn single handed. They encountered no patrols/ a directed guard at the west gate. So it would seem there was no one set in Moria specifically to stop the fellowship. ( ok the watcher was there but if Sauron wanted the ring, he probably doesnt want it at the bottom of another body of water in the belly of a monster). Without pippin's mistake, it is at least plausible that the only trouble they would have encounterd was the weak guard on the east gate. 

Finally ( Phew I hear you say ), you make no comment on my point about the nearness of escape. NB This is not the same as saying a visit to Lorien was necessary.
If anything went wrong at the gap, even if only one crow spotted them, they would have to outrun orcs and wargs all the way to Gondor ( they were not sure of Rohan ). There is no way they would ever get away - you must admit that. In Moria things did go as wrong as they could, pretty much, and they still managed to get out. 
Hope you reply, and thanks for taking the time.


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## Harad (Feb 16, 2002)

No problem.

I dont think we will achieve any convergence, but do we ever?



> For all you or I know Saruman had enough orcs, wargs, crows and whatever other unnamed watchers to stand shoulder to shoulder right across the gap. There is no theoretical limit to his man/bird power. Or at least so Gandalf may have feared.



Qrcs are not test tube babies. Saruman (or Suaron) could not create life only twist it. The armies of both Saruman (and Sauron) were limited in size by natural processes. If what you say is true then Sauron would had 600 years to "fill" Moria to overflowing with Orcs. Sauron had a huge headstart on Saruman. The later had his Silver Medal winning Uruk-hai, but how many? I estimated that it would take tens of thousands of orcs to "close" the Gap and that was a major army in those days. Saruman first of all did not close the Gap. Second of all he was preparing for war with Rohan so would not have under any reasonable circumstances put a whole army on the sentry duty with the army of his enemy in the other direction.



> I thought my point about the fact they had already been detected twice, even before they reached Moria,raised big questions about relying on space to protect them.



There is no evidence that they were detected even once. If they were, how foolish to enter Moria, a known realm of their enemies (forget Balin, he was "silent" for 25 years).



> Either they would all travel somewhat towards Isengard, then send on Aragon/Legolas. However they would be walking closer to the possible danger in the first place



Aragorn was the preeminent tracker/scout in ME. Legolas was no slouch (ok he was a slouch...no matter). JRRT could shirley have written a good story of those two guys leading the Fellowship thru the Gap if he wanted to.



> During all this time Saruman's forces would be growing, and information would scarcely be current when the scout returned.



We are talking about hours or 1-2 days. The whole trip would take two weeks. Saruman did not attack at the Fords of Isen for 2 months.



> These are merely plausible possibilities intended to refute your use of these events as proof.



That people were able to use the Gap safely is not proof that they could again. It is certainly not proof of the converse. One is making decisions based upon the preponderance of evidence and potential threats. That the Gap was used safely within the last 2 months, I would put on the plus side. People have argued that because more than 30 years before, Gandalf and Aragorn had traveresed Moria, that was a reason for them to traverse Moria again. I know you havent used that argument, YET, but I remember it well.

In Moria it doesnt matter what the threat is. What matters is that all a threat has to do is go to one or 2 predetermined points and the threat is GUARANTEED to intercept the Fellowship. The Watcher did this at the entrance--and remember the Watcher went for Frodo. Durin's Bane did this at the exit.



> you make no comment on my point about the nearness of escape... If anything went wrong at the gap, even if only one crow spotted them, they would have to outrun orcs and wargs all the way to Gondor ( they were not sure of Rohan ). There is no way they would ever get away - you must admit that. In Moria things did go as wrong as they could, pretty much, and they still managed to get out.



I dont buy this at all. They could not know what was waiting for them at the exit to Moria. Indeed Haldir told them that a "great force" of Orcs went North "many days" before they reached Lorien. That force could easily have been a welcoming committee as they left Moria. On the other side the party discounts the loyalty of Rohan. Yet we know that historically they have stood by Gondor and the West. Futhermore we know that in the field both Eomer and Theodred are loyal and they are who counts. 

JRRT stacked the book against the Gap because for valid literary reasons he wanted to explore Moria, the only "dungeon" in his fantasy adventure. But you have not convinced me, with the evidence from the book, that this decision was based upon logic..again unless you invoke the principle that Lorien was a necessity. I note that you have eschewed that escape clause. God bless you.


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## MarkJ (Feb 16, 2002)

Well cheers for replying. I thought you might admit defeat over the distance to safety point but still, I will give up ( at least for tonight). I am still highly sceptical and i should point out the burden of proof is on you. In most well written books we assume the actions of characters are logical, so its up to you to show Moria as implausible. 
Night.
PS What has the number of orcs in Moria got to do with the number at Isengard. Sauron and Saruman's motives are not the same in these locations, Moria is very far from Mordor, and Saruman is breeding Uruk hai - surely a different process.
The references to detection were about the wolves ( where obviously they were detected.)(And the "hound of Sauron" distinction wont wash - it is almost certainly generic) Also there are the crebain which, you are quite right, i should have specified as merely a close call the first time, though after the mountain attempt they may have been seen due to their desperate need to get down.
Also, NB. Do not confuse what the reader knows with what Gandalf knew at the time of the decision e.g. Haldir's tale of orcs, the loyalty of Rohan ( very importantly ) and thus Saruman's plans for war. For all Gandalf knew Saruman had all his forces + the men of Rohan to gaurd the gap.
PPS If you admit you are wrong everyone will like you and stop calling you stubborn


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## Aldanil (Feb 16, 2002)

As my own most recent new thread has been met with a deafening silence, I'll venture another attempt at this old one, although I'd persuaded myself to refrain from any further pokes at the tar-baby. Better wisdom notwithstanding, here we go again...

If you are willing to concede, Harad, and I'll admit the chance does seem wildly unlikely, that the Fellowship's journey through Moria is justified if and only if Gandalf is intent upon reaching Lorien, will the wizard's words to the Company before even attempting the ascent of Caradhras set your skeptical mind at rest, and let this long-twisted thread at last come to an end? "We must go down the Silverlode into the secret woods, and so to the Great River," he tells them, while the peaks of Barazinbar, Zirak-zigil, and Bundu-shathur are still several days in the distance. Could it be any clearer? Is there more that you're looking for? Gandalf is determined by whatever means, over the Redhorn Pass and down the Dimrill Stair or through the darkling mansions of Khazad-dum, to bring the Fellowship to the "secret woods" of Lothlorien. Can we all go home now?


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## Harad (Feb 17, 2002)

Aldanil,

You still have greatness in you, but you must have missed the myriad times I said:



> HOWEVER, if Gandalf considered it a NECESSITY to go to Lorien, then Caradhras or Moria were the only ways to go considering that they went south from Rivendell.



Is that ambiguous? I am stuttering when I type that?

As far as MarkJ arguments, they leave me limp:



> PS What has the number of orcs in Moria got to do with the number at Isengard. Sauron and Saruman's
> motives are not the same in these locations, Moria is very far from Mordor, and Saruman is breeding Uruk hai - surely a different process.



Sauron's and Saruman's motive are precisely the same: to get the Ring...but Sauron had a ~thousand year head start. Moria is very far from Mordor but 600 years is very much larger than the 30 years, or so, that the Saruman Orc Cloning Labs were in business. Breeding is breeding and I dont see any evidence that Saruman drastically reduced the Uruk-hai gestation period v. the Great Uruks of Sauron.

The wolves detected them and then what? The wolves did not follow them to Moria. Why not? Because the wolves lost them. There is no evidence that going to the Gap would have made the wolves find them. If the wolves came from the south, that might be the most unexpected direction for the Fellowship to go. In any case we know that Saruman did not act on that intelligence even if he received it. The Battle of the Ford of Isen was 2 months later.



> Do not confuse what the reader knows with what Gandalf knew at the time of the decision e.g. Haldir's tale of orcs, the loyalty of Rohan



No need to worry there. I am merely pointing out that Gandalf came to the opposite conclusions WITHOUT justification. Why because JRRT wanted the story to go in that direction.



> PPS If you admit you are wrong everyone will like you and stop calling you stubborn



Why dont you admit youre wrong and prove something even more important. My joining a big crowd is hardly a noteworthy event. You being the first to "think outside the Mine," would be forum-shaking. Besides there are lots of people that still wont like me. Sniff..


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## aragil (Feb 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Harad _
> *Sauron had a huge headstart on Saruman. The later had his Silver Medal winning Uruk-hai, but how many?
> Aragorn was the preeminent tracker/scout in ME. Legolas was no slouch (ok he was a slouch...no matter). JRRT could shirley have written a good story of those two guys leading the Fellowship thru the Gap if he wanted to. *


Ah, clearly trying to incite me back on to this thread. Well, like MarkJ I tend to argue that the Gap wasn't necessarily closed, but Gandalf seemed to think so. JRRT has clearly 'stacked the book' against the Gap, making Gandalf's decision at least (somewhat) logical. First, there is the _crebain_. The Fellowship believes that they eluded the birds, but they don't really know. In the Two Towers Aragorn speculates that the Uruk-hai knew where to find the Fellowship because they were spotted by the _crebain_- 'Remember the birds'. Gandalf is also upset that he has used his pyrotechnics to save the Fellowship on the pass and to ward off the Wargs. He says something to the effect that he has written 'Gandalf is here' in letters that could be read from Rivendell to Isengard. Shirley after giving himself away like this, he now thinks that Saruman knows where he is. As for the Wargs- I'd say they were Sauron's. Saruman has Wolf-Riders, but I think that those are the type of Wolf that doesn't disentigrate after death. Sauron's Wargs have a bit of the unnatural in them, so I think that they would have reported to Sauron and not Saruman (for future postings on S&S military intelligence). So at this point Gandalf has two reasons to believe that Saruman will be aware of him approaching the Gap- the _crebain_ and the gratuitous use of fire. Next, Gandalf the Grey seems to be suspicious of Rohan. Remember, it is Gandalf at the council who brings up the rumor that the Rohirrim are selling horses to Sauron. When Gandalf was last in the area, Theoden (actually Grima) sent Gandalf out as a beggar. Gandalf had also informed Theoden of Saruman's Orcs during that visit, and Theoden had made no outward sign that he was going to act against Saruman. The friendliness of Rohan could not be 100% trusted from what Gandalf knew at the time. As far as Gandalf knew, Saruman was uncontested in the West, and could deploy whatever troops he wanted with out worry of opposition. Which brings us (as always) to the closing of the Gap. The 40+ miles of the Gap needn't be that well patrolled to close it. The fords were a relatively small area. North of the Fords the Isen was uncrossable- it was in a narrow Gorge, probably too wide to jump, yet too narrow to go down and come back up (remember Turin's companion dying in a similar maneouver trying to get under Glaurong?). North of that was Isengard proper, no place to take the Fellowship. Southwards is a small stretch to Helm's Deep- I don't know how easy it would have been to cross the Isen south of the fords. 
Anyway, my point is that it wouldn't have been any picnic for the Fellowship to cross the Isen anywhere but the Fords. Saruman could easily have held the fords with a couple hundred Uruk-hai, and for all Gandalf knew the Rohirrim wouln't have hindered Saruman in this. Gandalf knew that Saruman was looking for him, and that maybe the _crebain_ did spy him. Therefore, the Gap was more of a known bad decision, while Moria was a bit more of an unknown bad decision. For all Gandalf knew, he was expected to either go over the pass or to the south. He had no information on Haldir's report that Orcs were heading up to Moria. So perhaps Gandalf thought that Moria was an unexpected route, so it would be unguarded. He also held the faintest of hopes that Balin was still alive there- he said so. Moria also got the Fellowship out of the way of prying eyes like the birds, while the journey to the Gap would have left every possibility of being seen from the air (if the hadn't been marked already). Gandalf did not know if he could count on any aid by going to Edoras, while he knew that Lorien would be a temporary safe have (Yeah Elven Rings). I think that the Gap route was mixed with bad and unknown options, while the Moria route was a mix of unknown and slightly good (Lorien being the good)options.


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## Harad (Feb 17, 2002)

> of Wolf that doesn't disentigrate after death. Sauron's Wargs have a bit of the unnatural in them, so I think that they would have reported to Sauron and not Saruman



Another thing that JRRT downplays is that Moria IS Sauron's domain and has been for hundreds of years. To allow the possibility that Balin is alive after 25 years of silence, and to instead believe that Rohan has become traitorous (never happened) is stacking the book _illogically_. But that is the basis on which the decision is made.

Again and again, if Lorien is the key, then its Moria or bust.

If they are spied by birds or wolves then the next decision they make--either Moria or the Gap--is EQUALLY compromised.

The Ford of Isen is the only place to cross the Isen *in force*. Shirley, Aragorn the best tracker/frontiersman in ME could have negotiated the Isen with a party of 9. Suddenly this very capable Fellowship are unable to do relatively simple outdoors activities. Not only did JRRT stack the Book but all you "Mine-ers" are stacking the books as well.

The Moria route was a constricted combination of bad, real bad, and wishful thinking (as of 25 years ago). The Gap was a combination of maybe good (as per 2 months ago), neutral, or unknown bad.


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## Aldanil (Feb 17, 2002)

*yet another poke at the tar-baby*

Do you even listen to yourself anymore, Harad? 

"Again and again, if Lorien is the key, then it's Moria or bust."
(Pray pardon my profreader's presumption in inserting the apostrophe.)

If you really mean what you say, and you have indeed said it again and "again and again", what will it at last require for you to be satisfied?

Gandalf's words in "The Ring Goes South" which I cited in my previous post speak directly and unequivocally to the point that you insist upon repeating. Their leader, as he tells them when the Misty Mountains are still several days distant, explicitly and unmistakably intends to take the Fellowship through "the secret woods, and on to the Great River"; what further persuasion on the matter is needed finally to appease you? The wizard was most assuredly not stuttering when he spoke, nor is his counsel in the least ambiguous. Or are you suggesting that someplace other than Lothlorien is meant by "the secret woods"?

Although Aragorn expresses profound misgivings, and Boromir speaks up strongly for the Gap of Rohan (seems oddly familiar -- the argument of one from the South whose willful pride and overweening confidence in his own rightness ultimately leads him most ruinously astray!), at the moment of crisis the entire Company follows Gandalf the Grey not only into but through the Mines of Moria; even insignificant Gollum decides to come along for the journey. O Harad, dear obdurate obstinate Harad, won't you join them?


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## Harad (Feb 17, 2002)

Aldanil, revered newcomer to the English language,

I agree wholeheartedly with your quote. I think the "secret woods" refers to Lorien. My repeated sentences that "if Lorien, then Moria" should satisfy even so strict a constructionist as yourself. 

The logical train of thought which I am sure also exists in whatever language you call your own, is that *aside* from THAT imperative which the Gap could never fulfill, the arguments given by the characters in the book are specious and ingenuous, not to mention capricious, mendacious, inane, and silly. If they left it at: "We must go to Lorien." Then fine. But the lily is gilded (Why?) with other reasons that do not hold orc-draught.


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## lilhobo (Feb 18, 2002)

there are three elven strongholds in ME, grey haven, rivendell, and lothlorien.....was there any doubt that they would go thru Lorien??? i think not. i believe they would have gone via the Argonaths....especially cos it makes a better story


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## Aldanil (Feb 18, 2002)

*"logical...in whatever language" OR Who Are You Calling A Newcomer, Pally?*

I hestitate, Harad, to respond too snidely in kind, but not for much longer than a moment or two; and anyway, if it gets too heated, what are we paying these mighty stern-minded Moderators such princely sums (and in Talierin's case, a princessly sum, is it not?) for in the first place, if not to come down harshly on some minor dispute? Aren't we all meekly at the mercy of the mild Mace of Morgoth?


I'm glad we apparently both agree with my point, which was put forward as underpinning for its principal implication: this entire thread of debate is a great waste of time. Your reason for sustaining such a wearisome quibble ("*aside* from THAT imperative") seems to me much like the recondite ratiocination of one who must "wholeheartedly" acknowledge that Yes, the Sun does rise in the East, but if it didn't -- and it's only because the Creator of the Universe stacked the deck for His own purposes that it does, anyway -- it would be demonstrably more logical that it should rather rise in the North; after all, the seasons move vertically over the surface of the earth -- why shouldn't the solar course across the sky follow the same more sensible path? Those who in their weak-minded horizontal opposition insist on such insipid and minor details as sunset's splendor on the Western Seas are missing the deeper logical point, or worse, merely "gilding the lily" with their feeble rejoinders! Why indeed should not the Sun instead go down in the South, whence perhaps its warm and golden light might illumine the desert-sorry darkness of misreason which reigns over that sandy and wind-swept wasteland, where no wise man long wanders for the weal of his wits? Well, I'm waiting!


On a slightly less sarcastic note, your admirably even-handed analysis of the various "arguments given by the characters in the book" (as opposed to those offered by the posters on this thread -- though I'm sure your legendary open-mindedness can embrace them as well) which run counter to your own position on the subject as being severally "specious, ingenuous, capricious, mendacious, inane, and silly" rather reminds me of the moral of that Oceanic parable taught by the sages of Samoa, which tells of a sly and surreptitious usurper who stole the High King of the Archipelago's ancient ceremonial seat and sought to stash the royal symbol away in the back room of the bamboo hut up on stilts where he lived, only to see its richly decorated weight soon come crashing down through the floor of his dwelling and so clearly reveal to the curious crowd of assembled Polynesians his perfidious pilfering: "People who live in grass houses shouldn't stow thrones."


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## Harad (Feb 18, 2002)

Aldanil,

Thank you for spending so much of your valuable time identifying this thread as a waste thereof. I was unclear on your theme before, but now have zeroed in on its essence. As I presume your work here is done, you can now focus your attention on protecting other people from any similar thread, in the unlikely possibility that it is as tiresome and pointless as this one.

As my points have been proven without serious refutation, there is no need for the opposite view to be further presented, as you have so staunchly proven.


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## Goro Shimura (Feb 18, 2002)

ratiocination... 
surreptious... 
perfidious...

No matter what anyone thinks about the point under discussion... (assuming that there is a point) Aldanil deserves a prize for the coherent use of the most SAT words in a single post.


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## Snaga (Feb 18, 2002)

So we're all agreed then? He definitely wanted to go to Lothlorien?

All the specious ratiocination, or if I might indulge myself fallacious syllogisms, on the part of Gandalf obscure the exigence of the Moria route in order to take advantage of the recuperative properties of riparian Lorien's Nimrodel-side location, not to mention the preternatural prescience of Galadriel's Mirror. Bearing in mind the subsequent obstreperous objections of Gimli and Boromir such Byzantine obfuscation appears expedicious.


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## Harad (Feb 18, 2002)

I pity the fool who says we arent.

Hail VoKs simple prose.


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## Aldanil (Feb 18, 2002)

I rather liked "recondite" myself; but having no one even complain about, much less have a laugh at, that old shaggy-dog joke does seem sort of a shame...


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## Snaga (Feb 19, 2002)

recondite was good! Actually I liked the alliteration 'recondite ratiocination' best of all; so much I had to imitate with 'preternatural prescience' and 'obstreperous objections'! 

Anyway how could anyone object to such a beautifully articulate post?

PS - excuse my ignorance. Whats a SAT word? Acronym overload!


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## Harad (Feb 19, 2002)

scholastic aptitude test
or is it
saruman's armored tower


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## Aldanil (Feb 19, 2002)

*that infamous acronym*

it's Sesquipedalian Autoerotic Terminology, I think...


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## Harad (Feb 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Grond _
> ... I wonder why Gandalf took the Fellowship through Moria when the Gap of Rohan would have been so much better of a choice...



Finally! My first convert. 

Still we probably agree that the party chose the more difficult Moria path to fulfill Gandalf's imperative of reaching Lorien.


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## Aldanil (Feb 20, 2002)

*Declare Victory Then and Withdraw*

Winning over so mighty an adherent as Grond the Great is surely an achievement to be savored, Harad, although I rather suspect the Mace's tongue to have been somewhere in the vicinity of his evil cheek in thus acquiescing to your point. Still, I think you should declare yourself in this matter of the Gap versus the Mines now and at long long last Triumphant, and let your troops come home for the holidays. To borrow one of your own eloquent phrases posted to another overspun argumentative thread, about whether the shadow which comes in over the gate at Bree that fateful night was Strider or a Ringwraith: CASE CLOSED!

And just to show that there aren't any hard feelings in the matter (nor ever were, really, although Harad feelings can't be entirely dismissed) let's crank up another line of debate, this one filled with quibbles about *How* Gandalf took the Fellowship through Moria. Much has been made of Pippin's foolishness in dropping that stone into the guard-room well and so rousing ominous hammer-taps down in the Deep. (More might also be made of the inferior and suspense-undercutting effect substituted in the movie with PJ's overwrought vaudeville routine of the cobwebby corpse falling in while dragging that ridiculous chain, but that rant's for a thread in another part of this multifarious Forum, and I digress already...) The wizard is quite indignant at our young Took's folly, and suggests only half in jest that he should throw himself in the next time; after all, a heedless and unthinking hobbit must not jeopardize the safety of the Company on its secret and "serious" journey. Nevertheless, and not very long after, when Gandalf finds himself temporarily at a loss to determine the best way forward, and pauses to consider while the others rest, he takes out his pipe and starts puffing away! I had never thought much of this until recently, Harad, save for the fondness I still feel from my very first reading for that clearly drawn and comforting image of "the old wizard huddled on the floor, shielding a glowing chip in his gnarled hands between his knees. The flicker for a moment showed his sharp nose, and the puff of smoke." I fear that your critical turn of mind is proving infectious, however; if one lights up a pipe in an open space even large as a lecture-hall, the smell soon announces itself in the farthest corner of the room. Some people say that the aroma of pipe-weed is pleasant and soothing, and we don't know what manner of leaf Gandalf is enjoying, although some fine variety from the Southfarthing seems a reasonable guess; be all that as it may, there's no way any orc in the area who isn't totally deaf in the nose fails to sniff out the scent within a matter of minutes! Is Mithrandir meshugga for his meerschaum, or what?


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## Harad (Feb 20, 2002)

Infectious indeed. I might as well trade in my curmudgeon card if YOU are going to come up with glitches.

But of course. Not only was the Pipe a Light in the Darkness of Everybody's Heart, but an Osmotic distribution of Southfarthing miniscules sure to grab the attention of any Snagas within Moria, they being mostly nose. 

Shall we dust off the Gandalf-Wanted-to-Fall theory?


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## Bill the Pony (Feb 20, 2002)

Summary of Aldanil's post: Was it logic for Gandalf to light his pipe?

I guess that comes down to the distance the smoke of a pipe is detectable vs. the distance Glamdring detects orcs. If Glamdring can detect orcs further away than their noses can detect smoke, it's ok. (assuming Glamdring was not glowing the moment Gandalf lights up)

The best indication I could find about how far Sting could detect Orcs is given by Aragorn:


> To his dismay the edges gleamed dimly in the night. `Orcs! ' he said. `Not very near, and yet too near, it seems.'
> `I feared as much,' said Aragorn. `But maybe they are not on this side of the River. The light of Sting is faint, and it may point to no more than spies of Mordor roaming on the slopes of Amon Lhaw



At this point the company is at Amon Hen, and Aragorn thinks Sting would detect orcs at Amon Lhaw, which is at the other side of the river with Tol Brandir in between.
My humble horse nose can detect weed of any kind at most a few hundred meters away. The distance between Amon Hen and Amon Lhaw seems to be at least that as well. (one arm of river, mountain, another arm of river). Taking into account that Moria was well-ventilated it seems the distance Glamdring detects orcs is further than my nose would detect smoke. So if orc-noses are similar to horse-noses, it seems reasonable for Gandalf to take a little comfort from his pipe.
So now the question boils down to how good are orc noses compared to horse-noses. That I don't know and will leave to more learned people on this board.


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## Harad (Feb 20, 2002)

What BtP describes is a static situation. Sting is able to find Orcs if they move into its radius of detection. Pipe smoke will expand to fill an area. Further Orcs are moving, so they may move from an area that they can't detect the smoke to an area that they can. Snagas are trackers--one would expect them to be expert in snuffling detection, although making that quantitative is difficult.

In any case, one wonders how fine Gandalf can make the calculation in confidence that it is safe.


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## Bill the Pony (Feb 21, 2002)

Ah, so then Gandalf was double smart. He figured if there were orcs, by the time they detected the smoke and tracked down where it came from, the company would be long gone, leaving the orcs confused and looking in the wrong direction. Smart guy...


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## Harad (Feb 21, 2002)

That's a problem with Moria...All you have to do is guard the door out. No need to track anybody down.


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## Minas (Feb 21, 2002)

*Shoot the GAP*

Harad 

You've done some sterling investigative work. What's your Anthrax sniffing talents like Billy because the FBI would like to talk about employment.
Never seem to get the time to analyse the books as deeply as I would like after I've read your posts Harad but cant find any fault in your logic so I've got to say that the GAP was a safer initial route than Moria. Although it all panned out in the end the Fellowship paid a high price for following that road. 
However if you were looking for some R+R and some fancy green garb then Moria leads nicely to Lorien. If you hope to sway the horsemen and fire up Denethor for the defence you go gap-Rohan-MINAS t- Mt Doom and not only pick up more air miles on the way to enhance the story but you're also playing the percentages.


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## Harad (Feb 21, 2002)

Hey Minas,
Where you been during the War? Are you pulling a "Glorfindel" and sitting it out in the comfort of Rivendell? But thanks for finally sending the cavalry.


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## Bill the Pony (Feb 21, 2002)

Do orcs smoke? Men, hobbits, wizards and dwarves do. Why not orcs? If so, no problem for Gandalf to light up.


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## Snaga (Feb 21, 2002)

Sure. They smoke hobbits.


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## Harad (Feb 21, 2002)

Somehow I can't imagine Grishnakh toking on some Old Toby. Nor eating pate, nor sipping wine. Maybe a cheroot or a ceegar. Gandalf's refined blend of Shire weed, would get the nostrils of Snaga's throughout Moria a-quivering.


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## Bill the Pony (Feb 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Harad _
> *Somehow I can't imagine Grishnakh toking on some Old Toby*


Lack of imagination or proof?


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## Snaga (Feb 21, 2002)

I think we need to consider Sting's range more closely than Aragorns supposition that Sting was detecting orcs on the East Bank. Aragorn may well have been wrong: Ugluk and his ill-led, ill-fated crew were wandering around nearby I recall. Its not clear how far, but could be just a couple of miles I think.

Anyone volunteers to post in detail on this? There's got to be a stack of examples...

On orc-snozzles...

The range of an orc nose may well vary. From the tracker mentioned in Mordor, you get the impression that he was a specialist, possibly with a genetically engineered nose. However, the Moria orcs will be well-used to a lack of light and would therefore have other senses that are more well-developed. There is little to suggest that orcs smoke, but given dwarves are keen on it they would be familiar with the smell from Balin and co. As an unusual smell for Moria, it would be readily detectable. Had the air within Moria been wholly still, diffusion would be limited. But the cunning dwarven ventilation amplifies the dangerous nature of Gandalf's fix. Although the smell would remain strong at the scene of his misdeed for some days, traces of it would rapidly travel some distance. Perhaps Gandalf's harsh reaction to Pippin is really an expression of the guilt he is himself feeling, for his own reckless behaviour?

I wanted to blame Gandalf's act for putting Gollum onto their trail. Unfortunately Gollum is already following them at that point, so it doesn't work.


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## Harad (Feb 21, 2002)

Gollum was buddies with the Watcher in the Water, who put him on the trail. Gollum typically buddied up with the biggest and baddest dude or dudette around.


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## Aldanil (Feb 21, 2002)

*As Dr. Victor Frankenstein Once Said*

"My God, I think I've created a monster!"

I suppose that the lesson to be learned here is, A Little Sarcasm Is A Dangerous Thing; if the (Inter)net result of all this proves to be the spinning out of another long and entirely speculative skein about the range and relative accuracy of orc-snozzles (to say nothing of the subtly delicate tastes of Grishnakh, the most dubious gourmet), I fear that I may well fall at last into despair (which is admittedly not quite so dismal and deep as the abyss of Khazad-dum, perhaps, but still makes for a right nasty bump at the bottom!)


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## Dhôn-Buri-Dhôn (Feb 21, 2002)

Actually, it's rather surprising that Gandalf's rash and selfish act didn't result in the company being rushed by a crew of Orcs dressed in slickers and helmets, wielding heavy canvas hoses and fire axes.

Or at least a drenching from the Sprinkler System of Durin.


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## Bill the Pony (Feb 21, 2002)

*monsters?*

Owww Aldanil, you should allow a poor little horse who is not smart enough to contribute to the serious threads like U vs. U-H, have his fun!


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## Snaga (Feb 21, 2002)

Can I just say that Grishnakh had a much better sense of smell than that snotty-nosed Ugluk, who couldn't smell a chicken madras if it was tipped over his head.


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## Aldanil (Feb 21, 2002)

Having vented my feeble spleen on this thread quite often enough already, let me just say that I am very nearly as fond of Bill the pack-pony as was Samwise himself; not least for his hilarious Steven Wright signature!


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## Bill the Pony (Feb 21, 2002)

Well thank you. Here's another SW fit for this thread:



> A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking.


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## Beleg Strongbow (Feb 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Bill the Pony _
> *Well thank you. Here's another SW fit for this thread:
> 
> *





That is a good sig!!


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## Miss Rainbow (May 14, 2004)

*Why Gandalf took the Fellowship thru Moria*

Well, You know that Saruman created an avalanch of heavey snow, and Borimir told Gandalf that it would be the death of the Hobbits, and maybe everyone else, so Gandalf said, "Let the ring-bearer decide." Frodo said, "We shall go thru the mines." Gandalf said, "So be it." I believe he was just plain tired or he wanted to keep his promise to Frodo, and maybe Gandalf felt he had no other choice but to go thru the mines. I hope this helps.


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## Ithrynluin (May 14, 2004)

Miss Rainbow said:


> Well, You know that Saruman created an avalanch of heavey snow,


Be sure to keep in mind the distinction between the books and movie stuff. Saruman may have been the one who caused the avalanche in the film, but in the books it is ascribed to the ill-will of the mountain Caradhras itself.


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## Miss Rainbow (May 14, 2004)

*Gandalf towards Pippin, and maybe Merry too*



Snaga said:


> I think we need to consider Sting's range more closely than Aragorns supposition that Sting was detecting orcs on the East Bank. Aragorn may well have been wrong: Ugluk and his ill-led, ill-fated crew were wandering around nearby I recall. Its not clear how far, but could be just a couple of miles I think.
> 
> Anyone volunteers to post in detail on this? There's got to be a stack of examples...
> 
> ...


You know, I really don't like Gandalf's "harsh" reaction towards Pippin and maybe Merry to; you know by the doors of Moria, and then in the mine when he tells Pippin to throw himself in next time to rid them of his stupidity.


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## Ithrynluin (May 14, 2004)

Miss Rainbow said:


> You know, I really don't like Gandalf's "harsh" reaction towards Pippin and maybe Merry to; you know by the doors of Moria, and then in the mine when he tells Pippin to throw himself in next time to rid them of his stupidity.


Gandalf reprimanding Pippin may not have sounded nice, but don't you think it was quite justified and understandable? After all, they were on a mission of utmost importance, and even the smallest mistake may have cost the Fellowship their lives and their quest!


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