# Bald Characters



## norrinradd (Jan 26, 2020)

Do you know Tolkien’s bald characters? In the hobbit movie, dwalin is bald but in the notes or books are not described as a bald by Tolkien I think, this is right? Another bald character do you know?


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## Deleted member 12094 (Jan 26, 2020)

Barliman Butterbur was bald:

_Frodo went forward and nearly bumped into a short fat man with a bald head and a red face. [...] ‘Barliman is my name. Barliman Butterbur at your service!’_​
But that's all that I remember at the moment... meanwhile welcome here, Norrinradd!


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## norrinradd (Jan 26, 2020)

Merroe said:


> Barliman Butterbur was bald:
> 
> _Frodo went forward and nearly bumped into a short fat man with a bald head and a red face. [...] ‘Barliman is my name. Barliman Butterbur at your service!’_​
> But that's all that I remember at the moment... meanwhile welcome here, Norrinradd!


Thanks a lot and i want to ask something that is which characters have a dark or swarthy skin in the middle earth? I think Rhun people. But Khamul the Easterling(Second Nazgul) is formerly Easterling soldier but in the movie, all 9 ringwraith is white formerly. I didn’t understand that.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jan 26, 2020)

Ahem.

_"But there was one swarthy Breelander, who stood looking at them with a knowing and half-mocking expression that made them feel very uncomfortable. Presently he slipped out of the door, followed by the squint-eyed southerner. . ."

. At the Sign of the Prancing Pony_

Welcome to the forum, norrinradd!


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## norrinradd (Jan 26, 2020)

But i want to ask khamul the easterling, has khamul a swarthy or dark skin? Or not? Because they said he is from easterling formerly but in the arda wiki fandom said that he is blue eyes etc and in the film all 9 former ringwraiths are white skin.



Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Ahem.
> 
> _"But there was one swarthy Breelander, who stood looking at them with a knowing and half-mocking expression that made them feel very uncomfortable. Presently he slipped out of the door, followed by the squint-eyed southerner. . ."
> 
> ...


And also where Ren Jey who is a Nazgul from? In the wiki fandom, he was born at near Ered Harmal.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jan 26, 2020)

The Fandom Wiki tends to mix media sources. Tolkien Gateway is better at differentiating them clearly.

The only Nazgûl named by Tolkien is Khamul; the others, including Jen Rey, are from the movies and/or games. I can't help you with those, I'm afraid, but you might find some information by looking through older threads on the film forums here.


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## norrinradd (Jan 26, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> The Fandom Wiki tends to mix media sources. Tolkien Gateway is better at differentiating them clearly.
> 
> The only Nazgûl named by Tolkien is Khamul; the others, including Jen Rey, are from the movies and/or games. I can't help you with those, I'm afraid, but you might find some information by looking through older threads on the film forums here.


Please can you look my other topic about khamul, thanks


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jan 26, 2020)

I did, but can offer nothing more than you know from UT, sorry.

I'll add that the "Southrons" -- I assume Haradrim -- ambushed in Ithilien are described as "swarthy men in red", and the men from Far Harad at the Pelennor Fields have "black skins".

If there is more information, one of our walking encyclopedias will be along sooner or later.

Edit: Oh yes -- most orcs are described as having "sallow" skin, but there's been a lot of argument over the years as to what exactly Tolkien meant by the term.


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## Olorgando (Jan 27, 2020)

JRRT once stated that the Fourth Age may have started about 6000 years ago. So any present-day population distributions would be, when looking at history, a poor guide.
Just think of all of the peoples who have been on the move just in Asia and Europe in the last 2000 years (which would have been about the Sixth Age by JRRT's reckoning, we'd be in about the Seventh). The Celts had been hovering at the edges of the Graeco-Roman "civilized world" or Mediterranean at least 2500 years ago. Germanic tribes started to move about, out of their non-Roman settlement areas at the latest in the fourth century, which also saw the invasion of the Huns. Beginning in the seventh century under the first four Caliphs, the Arab Islamic expansion into North Africa, then Spain, and at least modern Syria and Iraq and some of the former Soviet "Republics". Then the Mongol expansion, which fairly early on became a mixed Mongol-Turkic affair, which reached Europe in the 13th century. Timur in the 14th century did not actually attack Europe, it seems, certainly never got nearly as far west as the Ghengis-Khan and descendants Mongols (and never mind the Huns), but appears to have contributed to the weakening of the Golden Horde (overlords over Russia) to a degree as to make it easier for the Russians to throw off that yoke. And roughly while the Russians started to expand eastward, the Ottoman Turks did the same westwards (as you probably know at least as well as I do), being brought to a final halt at the second, again unsuccessful siege of Vienna in 1683.

So JRRT might have had quite a bit to choose from for his "Easterlings". What of all the above was known to him - archaeology and associated historical sciences have made quite a bit of progress since WW II. Until new results are published can take quite some time, though, and until they become the subject of popular science publications even longer.

So for the nearer "Easterlings" east of Mordor I would guess that they could be equated with Slavic peoples. Further east would mean Mongol, Turkic or a mixture of the two. Southrons would probably mean mostly North Africans, say Berbers and the like, while "Far Harad" is identifiable with Sub-Saharan Africa, But all of this is projecting recent conditions (of perhaps the last 1000 years) into a period, 6000 years ago, which was still clearly Neolithic even in Egypt, Mesepotamia, the Indus Valley and China.


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## Deleted member 12094 (Jan 27, 2020)

I don't know if this helps you, Norrinradd: some curse descriptions from a previous discussion.


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## Aldarion (Jan 31, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Edit: Oh yes -- most orcs are described as having "sallow" skin, but there's been a lot of argument over the years as to what exactly Tolkien meant by the term.



I always took it to mean "unhealthy". The only description I remeber is greenish scales of orc leader in Moria.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jan 31, 2020)

I believe you're thinking of the troll in Moria, possessing a "dark skin of greenish scales".

As for sallow, the question is whether Tolkien was using it in the modern sense or, as often, reaching back to old meanings from Old English, Old Germanic, Old Norse, or other linguistic ancestors, where it could mean "yellowish", "brown", "green", or just "dirty". I've seen arguments for all of them.


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## Olorgando (Jan 31, 2020)

Sallow: my Oxford University Press 2009 second edition English-German / German-English dictionary states yellow; my 1970 sixth edition "Langenscheidts", Germany's most trusted publisher of translation dictionaries, states yellowish; Wiki*pedia* redirects to "Willow", stating "some broader-leaved species are referred to as sallow (from Old English sealh, related to the Latin word salix, willow)"; its related Wiktionary states:
1. _(of skin)_ Yellowish.
1.1 _(most regions, of light skin)_ Of a sickly pale colour.
1.2 _(Ireland)_ (???) Of a tan colour, associated with people from southern Europe or East Asia.
2. _(of a person)_ Having skin (especially on the face) of a sickly pale colour.
3. _(of objects or dim light)_ Having a similar pale, yellowish colour.
4. Dirty; murky.
*Synonyms*
_(sickly pale)_: See also Thesaurus: pallid

I remember reading somewhere that the Huns of the late (western) Roman Empire period invading Europe of the 5th century would have appeared rather Orcish to Europeans, which would fit with the imprecise "yellowish" description.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jan 31, 2020)

You can find more by Googling "sallow etymology".


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## Olorgando (Jan 31, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> You can find more by Googling "sallow etymology".


*sarcasm dripping acid on*
see what an old fart can find *without* Google? 👿
*sarcasm dripping acid off*


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## norrinradd (Mar 2, 2020)

Do you know the bald character in the middle earth according to Tolkien’s writing, tales?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Mar 2, 2020)

Didn't you ask this on another thread?

Yes, you did! 








Bald Characters


Do you know Tolkien’s bald characters? In the hobbit movie, dwalin is bald but in the notes or books are not described as a bald by Tolkien I think, this is right? Another bald character do you know?




www.thetolkienforum.com


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## norrinradd (Mar 2, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Didn't you ask this on another thread?
> 
> Yes, you did!
> 
> ...


Yes, butt i didnt get satifying answer  please let me know except Barliman Butter


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## norrinradd (Apr 29, 2020)

Merroe said:


> I don't know if this helps you, Norrinradd: some curse descriptions from a previous discussion.


I just want to ask something, maybe you can see my thread at Unfinished Tales. If you do not see, I add here now.


We know that; in UT (Hunt for the Ring, journey of the black riders, note 1) says that Khamul was referred to as nick-name that is ”the Black Easterling” in the rejected version of the present passage of Tale of Years. Therefore, Did Tolkien give the nickname (Black Easterling) to Khamul because of he was actually an Easterling?
Otherwise, Tolkien, as the purpose of using this nickname in his work; Did Tolkien want to explain that Khamul was known with this nickname to other middle-earth cultures, races or people and that Khamul is not actually an Easterling?


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## Firawyn (Apr 30, 2020)

Bald, I suppose, is a scale. How bald? Completely? 

Gollum/Smeagol was more or less bald, if memory serves from book descriptions. I'd also point out that as a species, Orcs and Goblins generally did not have much in the way of hair. 

You didn't specify human characters, after all. Hello, all. *looks wistful* Well, I'm back.


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## norrinradd (Apr 30, 2020)

Firawyn said:


> Bald, I suppose, is a scale. How bald? Completely?
> 
> Gollum/Smeagol was more or less bald, if memory serves from book descriptions. I'd also point out that as a species, Orcs and Goblins generally did not have much in the way of hair.
> 
> You didn't specify human characters, after all. Hello, all. *looks wistful* Well, I'm back.


Could you answer my above question about the is Khamul an Easterling?


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## Deleted member 12094 (Apr 30, 2020)

norrinradd said:


> We know that; in UT (Hunt for the Ring, journey of the black riders, note 1) says that Khamul was referred to as nick-name that is ”the Black Easterling” in the rejected version of the present passage of Tale of Years. Therefore, Did Tolkien give the nickname (Black Easterling) to Khamul because of he was actually an Easterling?
> Otherwise, Tolkien, as the purpose of using this nickname in his work; Did Tolkien want to explain that Khamul was known with this nickname to other middle-earth cultures, races or people and that Khamul is not actually an Easterling?



The LotR does not mention any names of the Nazgûl. In the UT we can find the name Khamûl, along with references like "Black Easterling" or "Shadow of the East" (you have found that already), so I think that his eastern origin is sufficiently confirmed.

However, whether this knowledge comes from canon text is debatable. You have mentioned correctly that several versions of the tale “The Hunt for the Ring” are published; Christopher Tolkien himself was not beyond some doubt which parts were to be considered as “final” (if such a word is applicable at all, in JRRT’s literature).

BTW (not related to your question), as regards the origin of the other Nazgûl, their leader was the Witchking of Angmar so we know at least who he was (yet without a name). In TS you can also read this: _"[...] it is said that among those whom he ensnared with the Nine Rings three were great lords of Númenórean race."_


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## norrinradd (Apr 30, 2020)

Merroe said:


> The LotR does not mention any names of the Nazgûl. In the UT we can find the name Khamûl, along with references like "Black Easterling" or "Shadow of the East" (you have found that already), so I think that his eastern origin is sufficiently confirmed.
> 
> However, whether this knowledge comes from canon text is debatable. You have mentioned correctly that several versions of the tale “The Hunt for the Ring” are published; Christopher Tolkien himself was not beyond some doubt which parts were to be considered as “final” (if such a word is applicable at all, in JRRT’s literature).
> 
> BTW (not related to your question), as regards the origin of the other Nazgûl, their leader was the Witchking of Angmar so we know at least who he was (yet without a name). In TS you can also read this: _"[...] it is said that among those whom he ensnared with the Nine Rings three were great lords of Númenórean race."_


Hi Lord again🙏


What Christopher Tolkien (in UT) meant in the rejected version is about the number of the Nazguls at that time in Dol Guldur. Whether 2-3 Nazgul at there,or Khamul is not there, is not important and nasty (rejected version or other version is already related to how many nazguls are in Dol Guldur); but this is not a note showing that he was not nicknamed “the Black Easterling”. Am I wrong? It is presented in the note that Khamul is referred to by his nickname “Second Chief” and “Black Easterling”, just not by his original name. In this note (about rejected version), ”Second Chief” and ”the Black Easterling” are used together. And in the other text (actual text), we already knew and saw that Khamul was called ”Second Chief”. We understand clearly that the nickname “Second Chief” belongs to Khamul. With this note (about the rejected version) just added a nickname, is “Black Easterling”, to other nickname (Second Chief).

Even if it is on the rejected version,there is no doubt that these two nicknames belong to Khamul by using “Second Chief” and “the Black Easterling” nicknames together, I think that Christopher Tolkien also stated these notes and in last pages of UT (chapther of *INDEXS*); there are 2 notes that are “the Black Easterling, see: Khamul” and the other one is “Khamul:.... nicknames; Shadow of the East, the Black Easterling, Second Chief”.

Am I right?


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## norrinradd (Apr 30, 2020)

Merroe said:


> The LotR does not mention any names of the Nazgûl. In the UT we can find the name Khamûl, along with references like "Black Easterling" or "Shadow of the East" (you have found that already), so I think that his eastern origin is sufficiently confirmed.
> 
> However, whether this knowledge comes from canon text is debatable. You have mentioned correctly that several versions of the tale “The Hunt for the Ring” are published; Christopher Tolkien himself was not beyond some doubt which parts were to be considered as “final” (if such a word is applicable at all, in JRRT’s literature).
> 
> BTW (not related to your question), as regards the origin of the other Nazgûl, their leader was the Witchking of Angmar so we know at least who he was (yet without a name). In TS you can also read this: _"[...] it is said that among those whom he ensnared with the Nine Rings three were great lords of Númenórean race."_


Do you disagree with me sir Merroe, about my post on my one above commemt (related with what the versions mean)?


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## Elthir (Apr 30, 2020)

This latest turn in the discussion seems familiar 😇


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## Firawyn (Apr 30, 2020)

norrinradd said:


> Thanks a lot and i want to ask something that is which characters have a dark or swarthy skin in the middle earth? I think Rhun people. But Khamul the Easterling(Second Nazgul) is formerly Easterling soldier but in the movie, all 9 ringwraith is white formerly. I didn’t understand that.



Presuming this was the question you were referring to, all I can say is that I am hardly the person to turn to if you are looking for a defender of the movies. Jackson's interpretation of Lord of the Rings had some merit, but ultimately creative liberty was taken and given that they cast Caucasian men for the roles of each Aragorn, Theoden, and Denethor and his sons, men whom the Wraiths are supposed to be descended from, to cast someone of a different ethnic background didn't make a lot of sense visually. In a nutshell, the movie was whitewashed. I personally find this to be a disservice to the story, but I'm a bit of a purist that way. 

Plus side, at least your Khamul made it into the film, whitewashed or not. The same couldn't be said for the likes of Tom Bombadil, among others. He also might have been replaced entirely by a sword toting Xena knockoff who was only a bit part in the book. Yes, I remain a little bitter about Glorfindel. Alright, fine, a lot bitter. 😏


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## Elthir (Apr 30, 2020)

I try to look at the bright side of the Glorfindel issue with respect to these films. . . that he wasn't in them  

Although if I recall correctly, were there not some web-mutterings of a person cast as Glorfindel who simply appeared in at least one background scene. Or did I dream this?

I hope I dreamed it.


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## Firawyn (Apr 30, 2020)

Elthir said:


> I try to look at the bright side of the Glorfindel issue with respect to these films. . . that he wasn't in them
> 
> Although if I recall correctly, were there not some web-mutterings of a person cast as Glorfindel who simply appeared in at least one background scene. Or did I dream this?
> 
> I hope I dreamed it.



I'm not certain if he was ever cast for the role ahead of the game or if it was one of those "Well, okay, let's do this thing after the fact", but Jarl Benzon was featured as Glorfindel for the Lord of the Ring Trading Card Game (game made by Decipher) for the Rare Foil Edition card. That same actor, dressed as an Elf, also appeared in Aragorn's coronation scene during Return of the King. Technically speaking, as such, one could argue that Glorfindel, _was_ in Lord of the Rings, even if he wasn't technically credited, and only a super-nerd such as myself would put that together. 

That said, are you really suggesting you favor Xenarwen? Madam Lisp? She who whines every time she opens her mouth? The character love interest I didn't even root for in the _books, _much less the film? Ugh! The single redeeming scene of Arwen's, in my mind, was the scene in where she sees her son and then confronts her father about it. "But there is also life!" - that, I will give Liv, was perfect delivery. I felt that to the core. 

Speaking of bald men, how's Hugo Weaving's hairline doing these days?


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## Elthir (Apr 30, 2020)

Wow! You certainly knew that answer!



Firawyn said:


> That said, are you really suggesting you favor Xenarwen? Madam Lisp? She who whines ( . . . )




Argh no 

My "I'm glad Glorfindel wasn't in these films" is perhaps better described as an out of context "silver (golden) lining" . . . in other words, very generally speaking, I might, at least, have felt like ripping out patches of my beard while seeing Jackson's version of what I imagine as a shining paragon of Elven-ness.

In the actual context of the film I would not have Arwen appear as she did, or at all in the scene before Frodo gets to Rivendell. I have a couple of different ideas for this scene, but I won't delve into them here. And as it turns out, for my imagined version, I cast Arwen way back in the early 1980s -- her name is _Joyce Penelope Wilhelmina Frankenberg. 

💥_


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## Firawyn (May 1, 2020)

Elthir said:


> My "I'm glad Glorfindel wasn't in these films" is perhaps better described as an out of context "silver (golden) lining" . . . in other words, very generally speaking, I might, at least, have felt like ripping out patches of my beard while seeing Jackson's version of what I imagine as a shining paragon of Elven-ness.



As I said, I'm a bit of a nerd. I would concur that Jackson would likely have butchered Glorfindel much like he did a number of other characters. I honestly think the only reason the character of Saruman made it through the films in fairly close to one piece was because Christopher Lee was such an avid fan himself that he advocated for the character's integrity. I think the singular reason Sean Bean was cast as Boromir was because he was going to die, and hey, it's Sean Bean and that's what he does! Really, I might have thought of any number of better options for Boromir. I digress more than we've already digressed, however, and the poor casting choices is an entire discussion to itself. I will simply say here that when you take an obsessive personality and you give that person a childhood not unlike Harry Potter's, and hand them a copy of Lord of the Rings, well, you end up with someone like me. Quick wit, sharp tongue, and encyclopedic knowledge of a number of different nerdy subcultures. Cheers to that, though.




> And as it turns out, for my imagined version, I cast Arwen way back in the early 1980s -- her name is _Joyce Penelope Wilhelmina Frankenberg._


 

I may not be as old as you are, but I'm hardly young. I grew up on Doctor Quinn. Very good choice for Arwen. That said, she'd be far too old now. If they were to do a remake, who would you cast now? Personally, I'd go with someone like Summer Glau, especially if the producers/writers/directors were planning on writing up the part again to be more than a bit thing. She can pull the soft spoken, demure thing well, while not sacrificing the radiating power, and she looks elegant in a potato sack. The fact that she can kill you with her brain doesn't hurt either. (Nerd reference for five points...)


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## Elthir (May 1, 2020)

I'll have to think about that.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (May 1, 2020)

Elthir said:


> I try to look at the bright side of the Glorfindel issue with respect to these films. . . that he wasn't in them


Just the way I feel about Tom Bombadil.


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## Elthir (May 1, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Just the way I feel about Tom Bombadil.




Excellent addition!

I recently had a daymare that Jackson cast himself in the role. . . so recent, in fact, that it occurred while writing this post.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (May 1, 2020)

Didn't he "receive" an arrow at Helm's Deep?


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## Elthir (May 1, 2020)

I can't remember. I blacked out somewhere during the battle because my own dream was employing too much "shakey-cam" to properly view all the fight choreography.

🥴


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (May 1, 2020)

Seems I misremebered:






Must have been wishful thinking.


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## Erestor Arcamen (May 1, 2020)

Apparently he played as an extra in all three, just I've never found him in the other two (and could care less if I ever do)


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (May 1, 2020)

Hobbit too, apparently -- see above.


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## Olorgando (May 1, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Didn't he "receive" an arrow at Helm's Deep?


That received arrow was in RoTK, a pirate (Umbar) captain challenging Aragorn with the "you and what army?" bit. Thought I think in might only have been in the EE ...
Legolas was not aiming to kill, but shooting just off the ear of someone on that ship due to Aragorn mouthing something not heard until perhaps 19th century British navy ...
It was Gimli nudging Legolas's bow that took down PJ - probably to roars of approval by book nerds; though even *they* may have had needed more than one viewing of the RoTK EE, and most likely the appendices to it where the cameos of PJ and other non-actors were explained.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (May 1, 2020)

Ah, so it _was _in there?

I admit, I would have aimed at another part of his anatomy. 😁


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## Gilrain55 (May 15, 2020)

If they do a reboot, I hope they put Arwen back where she belongs ... behind the scenes.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (May 15, 2020)

I agree, she belongs in the background, overseeing the action from a distance. But it will be a long wait for a remake, I'm afraid.

And welcome to the forum, Gilrain55! There's a New Members thread, if you'd like to introduce yourself and your interests.


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