# Half-Elves



## Firawyn (Oct 3, 2005)

Okay, okay, I was wondering.

In the case of Half-Elves such as Elrond (I'm sure there's others, I just cant name thtem off the top of my head.), How is it decided what features are inherited by the offspring?

What I mean is, Elrond was half elf, hald man, but he looked like and was immortal like a pure elf. How come Elrond didn't have rounded ears or something, to show his humam half??


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## Elessar_uk (Oct 3, 2005)

Im sure someone more knowledgable will come along and give you the full family tree and lineage of Elrond and his kin, but if my memory serves me correctly Elrond and his brother Eros were given the choice to live as the firstborn, and therefore immortal or as a man and therefore mortal. Elrond chose to live as an elf and therefore gained immortality and i assume the physical characteristics of that race. Elros chose mortality and became the first king of Numenor..and was the fore father of aragorn.
Or i could be totaly wrong..lol


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## Erestor Arcamen (Oct 3, 2005)

Elessar, you're right about that. I dont know about others though, I do know that that is correct about Elros and Elrond though.


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## Snaga (Oct 3, 2005)

I don't recall a description of Elrond that includes an account of his ears, but I may be wrong. I don't think in fact that the physical appearance of elves and men is distinquished in quantitive things (like pointiness of ears, or arched eyebrows or other traditional 'elfin' characteristics) so much as qualitative things (that elves are more beautiful, more graceful etc.).

I feel it is likely that any half-elven being will seem very 'elven' in this qualitative sense. Even Aragorn, who has only a tiny amount of elven blood seems to me to have something of this within him.


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## Thorondor_ (Oct 3, 2005)

A description of Bilbo in one of the letters (#27) could hint that elves have pointed ears:


> A round, jovial face; ears only slightly pointed and 'elvish'; hair short and curling (brown)


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## Snaga (Oct 3, 2005)

I don't agree.

(1) I don't agree that the letters can be taken as evidence, since they are not part of the Legendarium. They are the author's reflections on his work. (I'm probably in a minority on that one!!)
(2) By putting elvish in quotes, I would take that as meaning what is popularly considered elvish, not what is 'actually' elvish.


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## Thorondor_ (Oct 3, 2005)

True, but another statement is found in HoME 5, Etymologies:
"The quendian ears were more pointed and leaf shaped than [human]"
[Though this is a rather ... "old" refferecence]


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## Firawyn (Oct 3, 2005)

*gags repulsivly* Aragorn married his _cousin_???  


Anyway, are you guys saying that there is no evidence to suggest that elves even had pointy ears??


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## e.Blackstar (Oct 3, 2005)

Yeah, he married his cousin. But she was about a million times removed...by the trees of all the Numenorean kings, so I think the kids are okay.


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## Gothmog (Oct 3, 2005)

Snaga, of course the letters can be taken as evidence for the very reason that 'They are the author's reflections on his work.' In fact they should carry more weight than the unpublished works found in HoME or UT.

What they cannot be taken as, is 'Proof Positive' That is a position reserved for The Hobbit and the LotR.


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## Snaga (Oct 3, 2005)

Thorondor_ said:


> True, but another statement is found in HoME 5, Etymologies:
> "The quendian ears were more pointed and leaf shaped than [human]"
> [Though this is a rather ... "old" refferecence]


Really? Where's this? Can you be more specific? I've never noticed that...

Course, if I was feeling difficult, I would point out the wide variety of leaf shapes in the world!


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## Walter (Oct 3, 2005)

Snaga said:


> Really? Where's this? Can you be more specific? I've never noticed that...
> 
> Course, if I was feeling difficult, I would point out the wide variety of leaf shapes in the world!


You and difficult?    (but even that we could forgive if only occasionally you provided us with some food for gossip about little orclings to be, etc., etc. ) 

The entry is in HoMeV, Lost Road, Etymologies under LAS(1) (p. 367f)

The issue, however, is far from being settled. Conrad Dunkerson in his FAQ provides a good overview...

http://tolkien.slimy.com/essays/Ears.html


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## Inderjit S (Oct 4, 2005)

Thorondor-the quote you provided from the letters is not about Tolkien's Elves, but about Father Christmas's Elves. The 'human' in the quote from HoME 5 is also not clear.


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## Ingwë (Oct 4, 2005)

Ahem, you forgot something important  
Elrond is *not* just _half elf._ I suppose you haven't checked his biography made by me 


> Elrond Halfelven was born in First age 525 of the Havens of Sirion. His parents both are half-elven - Eärendil, born in Gondolin before its Fall and Elwing, daughter of Dior and Nimlot. Eärendil is inheritant of Tuor, son of Huor of the house of Hador, and Idril Celebrindal, daughter of Gondolins King Turgon, son of Fingolfin. Turgon was High Elf - Noldor. Dior was son of Beren and Lúthien; Beren is of the House of Bëor, and Lúthien is daughter of Thingol, King of Doriath and Melian the Maia. Elrond is Vanyar through his great-grandmother Elenwë, and also through his great-great-great-grandmother Indis second wife of Finwë.
> *Though he is known as half-elven, Elrond's lineage is much more complicated than that little suggests. He could claim descent from all the main branches of the Eldar, each of the three Houses of Edain, and even from the Maiar*.


As you can see from the quotes. he is not just half-elven. And... _[SIZE=-1]Technically, Elrond was 56.25% Elf, 37.5% Man, and 6.25% Maia.[/SIZE] _


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## Thorondor_ (Oct 4, 2005)

Inderjit S said:


> Thorondor-the quote you provided from the letters is not about Tolkien's Elves, but about Father Christmas's Elves.


I think you need to check again your sources:


#27 said:


> To the Houghton Mifflin Company
> [An extract from a letter apparently addressed to Tolkien's American publishers, and probably written in March or April 1938. Houghton Mifflin seem to have asked him to supply drawings of hobbits for use in some future edition of The Hobbit.]
> I am afraid, if you will need drawings of hobbits in various attitudes, I must leave it in the hands of someone who can draw. My own pictures are an unsafe guide - e.g. the picture of Mr. Baggins in Chapter VI and XII. The very ill-drawn one in Chapter XIX is a better guide than these in general impressions.
> I picture a fairly human figure, not a kind of 'fairy' rabbit as some of my British reviewers seem to fancy: fattish in the stomach, shortish in the leg. A round, jovial face; ears only slightly pointed and 'elvish'; hair short and curling (brown). The feet from the ankles down, covered with brown hairy fur. Clothing: green velvet breeches; red or yellow waistcoat; brown or green jacket; gold (or brass) buttons; a dark green hood and cloak (belonging to a dwarf)


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## Maerbenn (Oct 4, 2005)

Inderjit S said:


> The 'human' in the quote from HoME 5 is also not clear.


_Vinyar Tengwar 45_ features the first part of a complete ‘Addenda and Corrigenda to the _Etymologies_’ by Carl F. Hostetter and Patrick H. Wynne, detailing additions and corrections to the published work derived from an examination of the original manuscript and comparison with the published text.

It includes this little tidbit:



> LAS^1- [for:] [?human] [read:] Human



Thus the final sentence of that entry properly reads:

“The Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than Human.”


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## Inderjit S (Oct 7, 2005)

No, you need to check you sources Thorondor, Tolkien wasn't talking about "his" Elves but the kind of Elves which are most often depicted as being Father Christmas's Elves, Elves did not have short brown hair, or at least they are not described as having short, curly brown hair and the description matches that of the Father Christmas Elves, Tolkien's Elves weren't even very well known at the time. 

Thanks for the quote Maerbben, though I am still unsure as to whether they could read the word more clearly than C.T.


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## Thorondor_ (Oct 7, 2005)

> Tolkien wasn't talking about "his" Elves but the kind of Elves which are most often depicted as being Father Christmas's Elves, Elves did not have short brown hair, or at least they are not described as having short, curly brown hair and the description matches that of the Father Christmas Elves, Tolkien's Elves weren't even very well known at the time.


The term "elvish" is made in refference to the ears only, not to the general description of the hobbit. And what do you mean by "Tolkien's Elves weren't even very well known at the time"? The Hobbit appeared in 1937, while this letter is dated in march or april 1938.


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## Inderjit S (Oct 11, 2005)

Well the Elves only played a bit-part in 'The Hobbit' which was a famous book, but not one which was so famous that Tolkien could casually make quotes about races and characters and expect the other person to understand who or what he was talking about-they certainly wouldn't know whether the Elves which Tolkien described had pointed ears or not (he writes it as if they do know, "ears 'Elvish'", the latter description also matches the description of the pooularized Elves at the time.


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## Walter (Oct 11, 2005)

In another thread we just made acquaintance with the Elves sitting in the trees singing silly songs. By the time Tolkien wrote this letter (#27), his Elves could not possibly be regarded as some majestic creatures of a _legendarium to be published_, Tolkien could also not presume that the publishers were all too familiar with Germanic/Norse myths...

If we see the letter in its context, the _"ears only slightly pointed and 'elvish'"_-part does not appear to be really suited to make the case for a generalisation regarding the ear-shape of "Tolkien's Elves" -- if such a generalisation can be made at all...

Bilbo, btw., in the picture at the dragon hoard is wearing boots...


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## Wonko The Sane (Jan 23, 2006)

Thorondor_ said:


> I think you need to check again your sources:





> Originally Posted by #27
> To the Houghton Mifflin Company
> [An extract from a letter apparently addressed to Tolkien's American publishers, and probably written in March or April 1938. Houghton Mifflin seem to have asked him to supply drawings of hobbits for use in some future edition of The Hobbit.]
> I am afraid, if you will need drawings of hobbits in various attitudes, I must leave it in the hands of someone who can draw. My own pictures are an unsafe guide - e.g. the picture of Mr. Baggins in Chapter VI and XII. The very ill-drawn one in Chapter XIX is a better guide than these in general impressions.
> I picture a fairly human figure, not a kind of 'fairy' rabbit as some of my British reviewers seem to fancy: fattish in the stomach, shortish in the leg. A round, jovial face; ears only slightly pointed and 'elvish'; hair short and curling (brown). The feet from the ankles down, covered with brown hairy fur. Clothing: green velvet breeches; red or yellow waistcoat; brown or green jacket; gold (or brass) buttons; a dark green hood and cloak (belonging to a dwarf)



All that quote shows is that Tolkien was trying to describe his Hobbits to a publishing company that wanted pictures he couldn't give. He doesn't describe the elves as having pointed ears in the book The Hobbit, so how can he use the term "elvish" to mean the elves of his creation? (The Hobbit being the only work of his published at that point.)
He must, therefore, in my own opinion, be referring to elves as was the common conception of elves. And most, but not all, of us I would say think of elves _in general_ as having pointy ears.

This is not to say that elves do not have pointy ears. It is not explicitly stated in the books, and the letters perhaps can provide insight, but I don't think they can answer the question. Tolkien was often dissatisfied with his work, and felt it should be changed. There are bits he wouldn't have put in if he had had a second chance, but they are still in there, and even if he says "In hindsight this wouldn't have been the case" they are still what made it into his works.

If Tolkien did or did not originally intend the elves to have pointy ears (even if he DID intend the Hobbits too) he may have changed his mind later. Even if he did, it's not "official" as it were. So it's not something we're ever likely to settle, because some people aren't going to be satisfied with answers gleaned from Tolkien's letters, and the books do not provide enough of an answer.

Um. I think I just talked myself in circles. Time for a bubble bath.


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