# Shadow over Hollin?



## Melko Belcha (Mar 21, 2003)

If this has been covered then sorry.

T.F.o.t.Ring - The Ring Goes South


> Frodo looked up at the sky. Suddenly he saw or felt a shadow pass over the high stars, as if for a moment they faded and then flashed out again. He shivered.



What is the shadow?

I have read all the HoME books and know all the stuff it says.
The Return of the Shadow - The Ring Goes South


> This incident was retained in FR, but it is not explained. The Winged Nazgul had not yet crossed the River (The Two Towers).


So it's not a Nazgul, could it be more _crebain_ from Fangorn or Dunland?


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## Niniel (Mar 21, 2003)

I think so, that's about the only thing that flies and causes uneasy feelings in people. At least I always took it to be crebain.


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## BlackCaptain (Mar 21, 2003)

It could represent a shadow in Frodo's mind; A delusion; A trick that the Ring is playing on him; An early attempt the Ring made to make Frodo begin to despair...


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## Melko Belcha (Mar 21, 2003)

I do believe the Ring helped him sense it. I should have but more of a quote because Gandalf notices it to.


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## jallan (Mar 21, 2003)

Though not explained, it seems reasonable that it was one of the Nazgûl on a flying steed.

Later we are told that they winged Nazgûl are restricted from passing across the River until Sauron makes open war, but that does not _necessarily_ mean that there had never been any flights across the river earlier.

Or you can make it an error of Tolkien’s if you wish. It is quite likely something he overlooked, but I think is explicable enough.


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## BlackCaptain (Mar 21, 2003)

If Tolkien took enough time to write that Frodo sensed something clouding the stars, he wouldn't have an overlooked mistake...


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## Melko Belcha (Mar 21, 2003)

Yes it is a overlook, it is explained in The Return of the Shadow. The shadow was put in the story years before the Winged Nazgul ever appeared. But through all the revisons and rewritting Tolkien did, plus deciding that the Winged Nazgul hadn't crossed the River, the shadow stayed in. That's why Christopher Tolkien says the quote I posted.


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## BlackCaptain (Mar 21, 2003)

So, it IS a winged Nazgûl?


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## Melko Belcha (Mar 21, 2003)

No. It is unexplained. The Winged Nazgul had not crossed the River at that time, Tolkien was decided on that. But the shadow appeared in the First Draft for The Ring Goes South, before the idea of the Winged Nazgul ever appeared.

This referance to a shadow flying over was never removed by Tolkien after the idea of the Winged Nazgul not crossing the River entered the story. Christopher Tolkien said it was probably overlooked.

So it is explained when reading the HoME series on LOTR (HoME VI, VII, VIII, IX). But as far as the finished work it is a mystery, it is not a Nazgul because in the finished work they had not yet crossed the River.


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## jallan (Mar 22, 2003)

Melko Belcha posted:


> But as far as the finished work it is a mystery, it is not a Nazgul because in the finished work they had not yet crossed the River.


Please read my discussion carefully, and then point out anywhere in the book where we are definitely told that no winged Nazgûl has ever crossed the river.

All we are told though Orkish conversation is that at _a later period_ the winged Nazgûl are being held back from crossing the river until the war begins.

Actually these are Grishnákh’s exact words:


> He won’t let them show themselves across the Great River yet, not too soon. They’re for the War—and other purposes.


The words “show themselves” do not rule out, even at that time, a covert mission, flying only at night. 

But the shadow was seen months earlier and it is impossible to prove what exact policy Sauron had at that time and what exceptions he might have made to it.

I agree that the continued mention of the shadow _may_ be a result from Tolkien not considering it in his revisions, but to think it a winged Nazgûl does not contradict anything in the book as published.


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## Melko Belcha (Mar 22, 2003)

Excellent point jallan!!!
I do not have my books around but I believe Gandalf does say something, but I'm sure, so don't quote me on it.
But if he doesn't then I agree with you on what you said, and it makes perfect sense.
When I get a chance to look trough the book I will get back on this.


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## Melko Belcha (Mar 22, 2003)

The Two Towers - The White Rider


> For he was a Nazgul, one of the Nine, who ride now upon winged steeds. Soon their terror will overshadow the last armies of our friends, cutting off the sun. But they have not yet been yet allowed to cross the River, and Saruman does not know of this new shape in which the Ringwraiths have been clad.


It is when this and the passage you quoted were entered into the story that Christopher Tolkien said that the shadow reference was overlooked. The concept of the Nazgul riding winged steeds came from the shadow reference, but it was not until later that the idea of Sauron saving them for the war was entered into the story, and at that time The Ring Goes South was already almost 100% as it is in the published form.

But if Tolkien overlooked it or left it in on purpose is not truely known.


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## jallan (Mar 22, 2003)

One could argue that “not yet allowed to cross the River” refers only to the current situation, not to that two months earlier.

That is, if we knew for certain through some mention of Tolkien’s that the Shadow seen in Hollin was a Winged Nazgûl, then that is the interpretation that _would_ be adopted here.

Compare Aragorn’s statement about Gondor:


> Would that I looked on you again in happier hour! Not yet does my road lie southward to your bright streams.


This both admits that Aragorn has been to Gondor before with the word “before” but also claims Aragorn’s road does not not yet lie southward which would deny the earlier visit(s), if we do not understand that Aragorn means _not yet at this time_.

Or, compare Tolkien’s words from the chapter _The Taming of Sméagol_:


> Then he lay on the ground, leaning out and looking down: but the light seemed to be fading quickly, although the sun had not yet set.


This does not mean that the sun has never yet set.

There is strong tension between Gandalf’s statement and the theory that the shadow over Hollin was a winged Nazgûl, but not quite absolute contradiction, not quite.


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## Melko Belcha (Mar 22, 2003)

Since Saruman didn't know 'this new shape in which the Ringwraiths have been clad', with his great knowledge of the Enemy, we can asume that the winged steeds were something new, or at least never seen outside Mordor.

And Grishnákh saying, 'They’re for the War', and Gandalf saying, 'But they have not yet been allowed to cross the River', gives me the impression that Sauron was saving them back for the Siege of Gondor.


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## jallan (Mar 23, 2003)

I wonder how Gandalf would know that.

After all, as we find out, Saruman is using the _palantír_ and the first thing that Pippin sees when he looks into the _palantír_ is winged Ringwraiths.

Gandalf, as he later makes clear, had not thought about the _palantírs_ at all until Wormtongue tossed down the stone of Orthanc.

Could Gandalf have been wrong about what Saruman knew?

Of course, as it turns out, Sauron has already begun his war when Pippin looks into the _palantir_.

I also wonder how Gandalf knows about the winged Nazgûl and Sauron’s policy about them. (Probably we are meant to chalk this up to wizardry of some kind. Wizards are supposed to behave mysteriously and have mysterious sources of knowledge.)

In any case, a single early test flight of a winged Nazgûl about which Saruman knew nothing still remains possible.

The Shadow over Hollin was (in the completed work):
Something that Tolkien would have considered a contradiction had he noticed it, and would have removed or given explanation for.
Something Tolkien did later notice but left in because it was not in absolute contradiction with what was later said, though in tension with it.
Something Tolkien quite honestly saw no problem with, nor would we, if Tolkien had put in more about what Sauron’s actual campaign plans at different times were.[/list=1]I think all three of these choices are valid, in which case the Shadow is explicable enough, and no-one need choose number one.


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## FrankSinatra (Mar 25, 2003)

*Atmosphere*

I love the atmopshere created by 'shadows across the moon' makes a wonderful picture in ones mind.

But, as a far fetched theory - perhaps the balrog left Moria for some reason?

They were not far away from Moria afterall.

(Just a new idea i thought i'd throw in)


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## jallan (Mar 25, 2003)

Anything is _possible_ even a Balrog that flies in the air according to some, though the Balrogs in “The Fall of Gondolin” could not even fly over the walls.

The shadow might be a flying saucer, if it comes to that.


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## BlackCaptain (Mar 25, 2003)

I would beg to differ...


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