# Did Bert, Tom and Bill slay Arador?



## Ardamir the Blessed (Jun 14, 2003)

Appendix A, _A Part of the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen_:


> And it happened that when Arathorn and Gilraen had been married only one year, *Arador was taken by hill-trolls in the Coldfells north of Rivendell and was slain*; and Arathorn became Chieftain of the Dúnedain.


This is said about Arador in PoMe, _The Heirs of Elendil_:


> He [Arador] was slain by trolls in the *mountains north of Imladris*.


This happened in TA 2930:

Appendix A, _The Realms in Exile_:


> Arador † 2930


_
The Hobbit_, 'Roast Mutton':


> William choked. "Shut yer [Bill's] mouth!" he said as soon as he could. "Yer can't expect folk to stop here for ever just to be et by you and Bert. You've et a village and a half between yer, *since we come down from the mountains*.


Bert, Tom and Bill had come from 'the mountains'. This happened in TA 2941:

Appendix B:


> 2941: Thorin Oakenshield and Gandalf visit Bilbo in the Shire. Bilbo meets Sméagol-Gollum and finds the Ring.


It seems that the Coldfells were synonymous with the Ettenmoors, because it seems rather unlikely that there were two separate sets of troll-infested moorland in the area:

'Flight to the Ford':


> It flows down out of *the Ettenmoors, the troll-fells north of Rivendell*, and joins the Loudwater away in the South.


Also from 'Flight to the Ford':


> Strider walked forward unconcernedly. 'Get up, old stone!' he said, and broke his stick upon the stooping troll.
> Nothing happened. There was a gasp of astonishment from the hobbits, and then even Frodo laughed. 'Well!' he said. 'We are forgetting our family history! These must be the very three that were caught by Gandalf, quarrelling over the right way to cook thirteen dwarves and one hobbit.'


 This would make both the Hobbits and Aragorn connected to the trolls in a way... due to Bilbo and Arador. The fact that Aragorn would one day break a stick over their stony forms is amusing. When Frodo laughs and tells the Hobbits that they are forgetting their family history... perhaps he should have included Aragorn. Those trolls may have also been part of his family's history.  

It's just speculation, but perhaps it was Bert, Tom and Bill that slew Arador grandfather of Aragorn.


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## Ithrynluin (Jun 14, 2003)

An interesting and well researched observation. There's not much to say... it is possible that those three trolls brought about the death of Arador, but we can't be certain.


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## Lantarion (Jun 15, 2003)

Welcome to the forums, Herendil. Your depth of research will be much appreciated. 
In fact, I can add nothing to your excellent hypotheses. I can only contest it by saying that it is nowhere explicitly stated that it was these three specific Trolls that slew Arador. But that's it.


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## BlackCaptain (Jun 15, 2003)

Wow That is one of the best observations I've ever seen! Mabey Bert Tom and Bill did in fact kill him... Mabey they helped... I wish I could know! Oh well... I'm convinced.


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## Eledhwen (Jun 15, 2003)

What a missed opportunity! Gandalf probaby knew about the slaying of Arador, so he could have searched the Troll hoard for signs of his armour if he'd thought about it. Maybe he didn't hear the bit about coming down from the mountains, so it didn't occur to him.

***Post edited to remove Christian joke***


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## BlackCaptain (Jun 15, 2003)

Jews don't go to heaven? Oh please lets not get into this... No religious talk


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## YayGollum (Jun 15, 2003)

From the quoteses, I would think that more than three trolls were being evil at the time. oh well. But sure, why not? Yay for Bert, Tom, and Bill! I always liked those guys! And always hated the evil Aragorn.


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## HLGStrider (Jun 15, 2003)

I'd like to believe so since you've gone through all that trouble. . . 

Evil Yay person. . .Aragorn should've slapped Gollum when Gollum bit him and Aragorn just took it like a man. . .sigh. . .What a guy. . .


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## Flame of Udûn (Dec 23, 2003)

I can only add that Bert, Tom, and William Huggins are refered to as Stone-trolls, while those that slew Arador are refered to as hill-trolls.


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## HLGStrider (Dec 23, 2003)

I thought they were called stone trolls simply because they were turned into stone. In the same way you would call them dead trolls.


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## Flame of Udûn (Dec 23, 2003)

No, they were a specific type of troll.


> Trolls therefore took such language as they could master from the Orcs; and in the Weatlands the Stone-trolls spoke a debased form of the Common Speech


_The Lord of the Rings_ Appendix F I The Languages and Peoples of the Third Age Of Other Races _Trolls_
If "Stone-trolls" meant dead trolls then there would be no talk of them speaking.


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## HLGStrider (Dec 23, 2003)

ah, I was thinking of the references to them as Stone Trolls within the Fellowship of the Rings.


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## Flame of Udûn (Dec 23, 2003)

Where are Bert, Tom, and Bill referred to as Stone-trolls in _The Fellowship of the Ring_?


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## HLGStrider (Dec 23, 2003)

I don't remember a particular instance in the book, actually. I think I've seen them refered to as that when discussing that scene about the forum. . .especially as refering to it when it was added in the FotR's movie.

And Aragorn refering to one troll as an old stone.


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## Wolfshead (Dec 25, 2003)

A very good argument. It's difficult picturing Bill, Bert and Tom actually being vicious and actually killing people, despite all their talk of it in The Hobbit!

I'm not basing my response on anything from any of Tolkien's works, for I don't have the time to go reading through them, but I'm using _The Complete Guide To Middle-Earth_ by Robert Foster, which I hope can be trusted.

There were four 'breeds' of trolls. Our three trolls from The Hobbit were stone-trolls, found in the Trollshaws and other parts of Eriador. The only other type of troll found in Eriador were hill-trolls.

Stone-trolls spoke a debased from of westron, whereas the hill-trolls spoke a debased form of Orkish. Stone-trolls were the more intelligent of the two. Bert, Bill and Tom spoke in the common tongue to the dwarves and hobbit, so they must be of the former.



> Arador was taken by *hill-trolls* in the Coldfells north of Rivendell and was slain


Therefore, it would seem logical to assume that Bert, Bill and Tom were not the ones guilty of the murder of Arador after all, due to their not being hill-trolls, but stone-trolls.


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## Thorondor (Dec 27, 2003)

What I always wondered about the Trolls was: how did they come upon Sting, Glamdring, and Orcist, swords of Gondolin? I am thinking on my feet without any books with me, but I thought Gandalf's sword Glamdring was infact Turgon's, High King of the Noldor. Again this is only from memory, but all I remember is it saying that they were probably spoils of other thieves that the three trolls caught. 

It seems like good luck to find them in the middle of Eriador after the destruction of Gondolin, and Beleriand...but then again, Rivendell was right next door, and full of High Elves. Hmmmmm...Didn't mean to draw the discussion off topic, but this was always on my mind.


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## Gildor (Dec 27, 2003)

Thorondor said:


> What I always wondered about the Trolls was: how did they come upon Sting, Glamdring, and Orcist, swords of Gondolin? I am thinking on my feet without any books with me, but I thought Gandalf's sword Glamdring was infact Turgon's, High King of the Noldor. Again this is only from memory, but all I remember is it saying that they were probably spoils of other thieves that the three trolls caught.
> 
> It seems like good luck to find them in the middle of Eriador after the destruction of Gondolin, and Beleriand...but then again, Rivendell was right next door, and full of High Elves. Hmmmmm...Didn't mean to draw the discussion off topic, but this was always on my mind.



I've wondered about that too. The only way the swords could reasonably have escaped the destruction of Beleriand was to have been taken from the ruin of Gondolin either by fleeing Elves or pillaging creatures...trolls or perhaps even Men. Orcs would probably not have touched such weapons, since the mere sight of Elvish blades like Sting seemed to pain them. 

Whoever had taken them must have brought them east to Lindon or further inland before Beleriand fell beneath the waves. Perhaps the Elves saved them only to lose them again to marauding trolls as they passed eastwards, or they were plundered and re-plundered by fell creatures until they came to our friends Bert, Tom, and Bill. 

Regardless, the swords seemed to pretty much disappear from history for about 6,000 years, so they probably weren't being used by anyone...most likely just sitting in a box or hole someplace.


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## Thorondor (Dec 27, 2003)

Gildor said:


> Perhaps the Elves saved them only to lose them again to marauding trolls as they passed eastwards, or they were plundered and re-plundered by fell creatures until they came to our friends Bert, Tom, and Bill.
> 
> Regardless, the swords seemed to pretty much disappear from history for about 6,000 years, so they probably weren't being used by anyone...most likely just sitting in a box or hole someplace.


One would think that if Elves saved them to be plundered by trolls, if Elrond would have known he would want to get them back. 

I did find it interesting in the Hobbit when Elrond explains what they are, he basically says: These blades were made in Gondolin, Glamdring Foe-Hammer was used by the King of Gondolin. Keep them well...He almost seems to have no interest in important artifacts of one of his ancestors...


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## Gildor (Dec 27, 2003)

Thorondor said:


> One would think that if Elves saved them to be plundered by trolls, if Elrond would have known he would want to get them back.
> 
> I did find it interesting in the Hobbit when Elrond explains what they are, he basically says: These blades were made in Gondolin, Glamdring Foe-Hammer was used by the King of Gondolin. Keep them well...He almost seems to have no interest in important artifacts of one of his ancestors...



I doubt anyone knew that the weapons had survived. Whoever originally rescued them (friend or foe) was probably killed and plundered long before Elrond set up shop at Rivendell, or even before Gil-Galad moved to Lindon. 

Well, The Hobbit is a much simpler story than LOTR. To have Elrond launch into a great tirade about where they came from and who they should belong to wouldn't do much for the plot. Perhaps Elrond felt it was Fate that the swords fell into the hands of Gandalf and company after having vanished for all that time.


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## HLGStrider (Dec 27, 2003)

Elrond was old enough to know not to meddle in the affairs of wizards and dragons (for he is crunchy and tastes good with ketchup.)


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## Wolfshead (Dec 28, 2003)

Gildor said:


> Perhaps Elrond felt it was Fate that the swords fell into the hands of Gandalf and company after having vanished for all that time.


Or perhaps Elrond thought that because Gondolin was so long ago, his decendants didn't have too much of a claim in the weapons. Or possibly, he simply believed in the old saying "Finders keepers". They'd found the weapons, so they were now theirs?


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## Thorondor (Dec 28, 2003)

I agree, all very good points. Especially Elgee's  Elrond probably assumed that they would better benefit Gandalf and the rest better than himself. And rightly so. This is just one of those things that I always had rolling in my head.


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## Ardamir the Blessed (Jan 17, 2004)

*CraigSmith*: I believe that you have proved that Bert, Tom and Bill were not the ones who slew Arador.


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## aragil (Jan 17, 2004)

Not to rain too much on CraigSmith's parade, but Craig Foster's entry for trolls is almost certainly incorrect. Check out the following thread for my personal opinion (brought about by observations from ShagratU): http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?t=14609

However, even there it is pretty obvious that "hill-trolls" belong to the Olog-hai, whilst stone-trolls are the "older race of twilight". So, if (and IMO this is a big IF) JRRT did not mistakenly say that Hill-trolls slew Arador, then it is indeed impossible that Bert etc. killed Aragorn's grandfather.


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