# Could the eagles have dropped the ring into Mt Doom? [Merged]



## The Secret Fire (Feb 2, 2003)

*Why not asking the eagles?*

Anyone ever wondered why the council of Elrond never considered asking some eagles for dropping the ring into mount doom? Just like this: give the ring to Gwahir (the same outsized bird that helped Gandalf when he was captured at Ortanc), fly over Mordor and SWOOSH the ring is disposed. I mean, they could have asked the eagles, because they were kinda close to men and elves. I know, we would not have a great story as we have now....but I wonder why Tolkien never debated this in his works.....


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## Celebthôl (Feb 2, 2003)

there have been many threads on this, the main point being there would be no story...obviously, also the eagle would have surcombed (sp) to the ring, and Saruon would have seen the eagles coming a mile off, also welcome to the forum and your name sig quote thing under your post is to long, they are only supossed to be no more than 3 lines...just warning...

Thol


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 2, 2003)

And why didn't Iluvatar click his fingers and have the Ring simply transported to the Cracks of Doom? Or why didn't the Valar come to Middle Earth bringing all their might and squash Sauron like a fly?
The peoples of Middle Earth had to take care of Middle Earth themselves, noone would protect their lives if they didn't do it for themselves. The wizards advised and guided them in the struggle against Sauron, the Eagles were there to help in the most crucial moments, but the Free Peoples had to show true resistance and offer a good fight themselves.


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## BlackCaptain (Feb 2, 2003)

There wouldnt be Frodo, Sam, Aragorns story, Boromir, Legolas, Gimli, Treebeard, Theoden, Eomer, Saruman, Helm's Deep. And even more. There just wouldnt be a story! And they wouldve been shot down


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## Confusticated (Feb 2, 2003)

No question makes me want to pull my hair out like this one does. The answer seems so simple, so obvious, but I'm an too dumb and my vocabulary is that of an average 10 year old's, so I can hardly explain it. 



I tried to here.


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## Isenho (Feb 3, 2003)

good points all of you. yeah on other forums i have seen this thread before, funny thing is, i posted the same thing on ringquest.com!


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## Goldberry (Feb 27, 2003)

*Could the eagles have dropped the ring into Mt Doom?*

Aside from the fact that there would not have been much of a story, do you think it would have been possible for the eagles to take the ring from Rivendell to Mt. Doom and drop it in?


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 27, 2003)

Why did the Eagles help? 

Things happen for good reasons. Eagles help for good reasons. They don't carry out the tasks of the Free Peoples for them, they "merely" help them in their endeavours. The people of ME have to learn to take care of themselves, and to learn how to resist evil, the Eagles only lended their hand (or wing, rather ) at utmost need.


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## Goldberry (Feb 27, 2003)

But if Sauron recovered his ring and took over ME, wouldn't the eagles suffer too? Wouldn't it be in their best interests to do all they could to help from the start?


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## Theoden_king (Feb 28, 2003)

If Sauron recovered his ring couldn't the eagles fly away from Middle Earth? Could they not fly over the sea to the undying lands?


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## Goldberry (Feb 28, 2003)

I didn't think the eagles were allowed in the Undying Lands. JRRT never mentioned any animals from ME going there, and the eagles are a sentient race.


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## LadyDernhelm (Feb 28, 2003)

Aye, but Tolkien never said animals were NOT allowed int he Undying Lands. I think that the Eagles were somewhat wiser than the Men - and I think that LOTR is the tale of the Men and their "beginning", or what have you. I mean, think about it. From the end of ROTK, Men were left very much to fend for themselves. So think of it like this: the Eagles, like the Elves, were letting the Men do it themselves so that when they left (or flew away, or whatever) the Men would not be completely helpless.

Also, I think the underlying thing is: eagles taking the Ring would've made a total plop of a story. They might's well have flushed it down the toilet, for as interesting as it'd become.


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## FrankSinatra (Mar 3, 2003)

*Eagles*

Tolkien did not like to 'use' the eagles to that extent.

In 'The Letters Of JRR Tolkien' he specifically mentions this, when someone sends him a script for a possible film.


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## LadyDernhelm (Mar 3, 2003)

Oh, really? That's very interesting.  Makes sense, though.


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## FrankSinatra (Mar 4, 2003)

*Easy*

I think he said it would be easy to use the eagles as a vehicle.

And when you think about it, it is right.

Think about the travel time saved if the eagles took them everywhere.

But it would not make for much of a read.


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## BlackRider (Mar 4, 2003)

yeah. and besides, frodo was the only one who was able to hold the ring remember? the ring choose its captives. so i guess that if it would have been an eagle the stoy would have been useless. unless the eagle had a human mind and knew about the dangers. but then what does that make Smeagol? Hobbit before yes... but he had the ring after he was a ...thing, so what was he?


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## spirit (Mar 5, 2003)

dude...u r confusing urself and me 2! say that again


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## Celebithil (Mar 8, 2003)

I can imagine that even the Eagles would be corrupted by the Ring and flying straight into Mordor isn't really that easy you've got the Nazgul along with the fact that its not very sneaky and Sauron would be aware of them almost immediately and be able to send forces to stop them. Amoong the other reasons.


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## elf boy (Mar 24, 2003)

well, it might be kinda dangerous for an eagle to get that close because they would be up in the air and everyone would be able to see them coming... It wouldn't be a real stealthy approach to destroying the ring is all I'm saying.


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## Feanorian (Mar 24, 2003)

As mentioned before the Eagles were not there to do the jobs of the people of Middle Earth only at utmost need, such as when Gandalf needed to get off of Orthanc. They were the servants of Manwe, I believe somewhere Tolkien says they are Maiar, because it is possible for them to bond with aspects of the world, such as rivers, eagles, etc. Just as the Valar did not come to the aid of M-E until there was no other choice. They were cheifly watchmen and messengers, there to hinder but not fully halt(not that that was possible) the actions of the Evil Ones.


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## Wonko The Sane (Apr 7, 2003)

I'm not sure to the answer to this.

Was Mt. Doom an open cauldron volcano or was it closed with a door on the side.

Ask Snaga. He'd know. He knows a lot about volcanoes!


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## Iluisa Olórin (Apr 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by FrankSinatra_
> 
> Tolkien did not like to 'use' the eagles to that extent.
> 
> In 'The Letters Of JRR Tolkien' he specifically mentions this, when someone sends him a script for a possible film.





> _From a letter to Forrest J. Ackerman [June 1958]_
> 
> [Tolkien's comments on the film 'treatment' of _The Lord of the Rings._]
> 
> The Eagles are a dangerous 'machine'. I have used them sparingly, and that is the absolute limit of their credibility or usefulness.


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## FrankSinatra (Apr 8, 2003)

*Yes*

Exactly!

Thankyou!


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## baragund (Apr 8, 2003)

Wonko, the Cracks of Doom were not open to the air. You had to go inside a tunnel that was in the side of Mt. Doom which then opened up into caverns.

Regarding the larger question of why weren't the eagles used more extensively to destroy the ring, that's probably the biggest hole in the entire story. Tolkien described his reluctance to use them in his letters (I believe he even referred to them as 'taxicabs') for no better reason than there would be no story if he did use them.

One view that people could find appealing is the idea that eagles help only in time of UTMOST need as discussed by Feanorian and Lady Dernhelm. Manwe, being the Vala associated with air and the winds, is particularly close to the race of eagles. Eagles have been the ally of last resort several times; they rescued Maedhros from Thangorodrim, they rescued Bilbo, Gandalf and the dwarves from the orcs, they rescued Gandalf from Orthanc. Each of these individuals went on to play key parts in the overall story of Middle Earth, and I like to think that Manwe was watching over things and would 'send the cavalry' from time to time when things were really bad.

It's kind of a thin argument, but it works for me


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## Ledreanne313 (Apr 8, 2003)

But you have to ask yourself: Would they destroy the Ring?

*Frodo wouldn't have* Think About It! *Not 'Could' but 'Would'*


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## e.Blackstar (Apr 9, 2003)

They could have, I'm sure, but They probly would have encountered the winged nazgul.


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## baragund (Apr 9, 2003)

Ledreanne, I suppose the eagles would have the same temptations to use the ring as anybody else. Even Frodo succumbed to the tempation at the very end. It was Gollum, when he jumped Frodo, took the ring from him by biting his finger off (ewww!) and then accidentally fell into the Cracks of Doom while dancing around in his triumph, who wound up destroying the Ring.

True, the eagles would have had a time with the winged Nazgul but think about it. Frodo and Sam could have boarded an eagle at Rivendell, flew to Mt. Doom with, say 30-40 other eagles to keep the Nazgul busy, get dropped off at the Cracks of Doom, do the deed, and return to Rivendell by suppertime. Not much story there.


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## FrankSinatra (Apr 9, 2003)

*Well*

Dont imagine that the biology would work.

How would they get it on?

Even then, where could they wear it?

Its like saying, if it fell onto an oliphaunt or a horse, that they would use it.


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## BlackCaptain (Apr 9, 2003)

Well, Eagles were Maia, and it wasn't the Maiar's responsibility to mix themselves in with the affairs of the people of ME. Also, the Eagles did not attend the Council of Elrond, wich decided how the Ring would be attended to.


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## Iluisa Olórin (Apr 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by BlackCaptain_
> 
> Well, Eagles were Maia, and it wasn't the Maiar's responsibility to mix themselves in with the affairs of the people of ME. Also, the Eagles did not attend the Council of Elrond, wich decided how the Ring would be attended to.



The Eagles were created by Manwë (and Yavanna) as the lords of the kelvar. They were not Maiar; only akin to them.


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## BlackCaptain (Apr 9, 2003)

Whoops. Of course... My bad


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## Rangerdave (Apr 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by lhutton _
> *The Eagles were created by Manwë (and Yavanna) as the lords of the kelvar. They were not Maiar; only akin to them. *



While the Eagles that remained in Middle Earth in the tjird age were more than likely only birds, a strong case can be made that the original Eagles, the ones from whom the current Eagles are descended, could very well have been Maiar.



> But Manwë Súlimo, highest and holiest of the Valar, sat upon the borders of Aman, forsaking not in his thought the Outer Lands. For his throne was set in majesty upon the pinnacle of Taniquetil, the highest of the mountains of the world, standing upon the margin of the sea. *Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls*;



I realize that it is not absolute proof, but it does raise the posibility.

As such, putting the One Ring on the Talon of one with divine ancestry would seem a bad idea.


RD


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## Wonko The Sane (Apr 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jimzeller _
> *Wonko, the Cracks of Doom were not open to the air. You had to go inside a tunnel that was in the side of Mt. Doom which then opened up into caverns.
> *



It IS a volcano...and it had to spew lava.
I think it was probably open. Even if only a little bit.
 

And I think the Eagles were unconcerned with the affairs of men and elves that they really wouldn't have cared to use the rings.

They kind of stayed out of it all...


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## Feanorian (Apr 18, 2003)

The point that they would run into the nazgul isnt a very good one. The original Eagles from whom they descended fought with the Dragons of Morgoth which were much more powerful then the Nazgul ten times over. The Eagles probably could have but they did'nt.


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## Wonko The Sane (Apr 24, 2003)

That's right.  And plus it wouldn't have made a great book.

"And then The Council of Elrond called to Gwaihir, and Gwahir took the ring and deposited it in Mt. Doom." (Which I believe WAS an open cauldron volcano!  )


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## Captain (Jul 22, 2003)

They eagles would have easily been shot down when entering Mordor. That is why the eagles wanted nothing to do with men in The Hobbit. They are vulnerable to projectiles.


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## Tilion (Aug 20, 2003)

Yes the eagles would have been prone to projectiles not to mention the Nazgúl but the eagles would never have got that far because they did not care for the troubles of menand the only reason they joined the battle in the hobbit is either because they felt they were in danger ojust wanted to rid the area of the foul goblins.


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## FIRELILY (Aug 22, 2003)

What projectiles would they've been vulnerable to while flying as high as the eagles could fly? And they WERE concerned with what was going on with men etc. or they wouldn't have bothered acting as scouts, helping Gandalf, or hanging around to pull Frodo and Sam out of Mt. Doom. And P.S. eagles have TALONS with which they can grasp things quite nicely- don't think grabbing a ring would've been a problem. BUT it would've made a really short story. AND I believe Tolkien wanted to emphasize that there was a certain responsibility there for ALL the people in ME to deal with this thing and end it. Even for the peace-loving, formerly-uninvolved-in-the-struggles-of- others, why-should-I-even-be-a-part-of-this, hobbits.


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## Khôr’nagan (Sep 1, 2003)

Hey, I never thought of the Eagles... They darn well could have, couldn't they? Or at least have flown someone on their backs to Mound Doom. I know there would be a problem of resistence, but if the entire combined forces of all good people in Middle-Earth attacked Mordor at the same time that an army of _all_ the Eagles in Middle-Earth flew (each with a great and mighty Elf-Lord on their backs) to mount doom and disposed of the Ring (while the Elf-Lords would hold off any resistance. After the Ring was cast in, the Eagles could then fly the Elves out again and all would be over. Something (or anything) like that would be ingenious!

P.S. This is my 100th post! Yay!


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## Wonko The Sane (Sep 6, 2003)

I agree with Firelily, the eagles could easily have flown high enough to avoid any Orcling's arrows, and then swooped low enough at the last possible minute to drop the ring in.

True they were uninterested in the affairs of man, but the thing stands that they COULD have done it if they had been at all interested.

Though I don't know why they weren't interested, did they think Sauron would have let a bunch of highly intelligent giant eagles just run around spreading "good" everywhere? I doubt it.
Those eagles would've been eaten by his Nazgul's winged friends in no time...seriously.


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## Thuringwethil (Sep 21, 2003)

Eagles as the Ring-bearers? I think not. (Notice "think"; these are my speculations, and strongly subjective.)

First, let's have a look at Orodruin; whereas I too think it's an open volcano, the main crater is not Sammath Naur, and only in Sammath Naur, the Forge of Sauron, could the Master Ring be destroyed. That is: no airdrops, but tunnel-crawling. Another thing: active volcanos spit smoke and ash miles high and many times as wide. Maybe flying in there could be performed, but how about breathing, or seeing where one is going?

Eagles themselves are swift and observative, but not very stealthy. Sauron would've noticed their approach, "activated" Orodruin, put a legion of archers defend Sammath Naur, and summoned the Nazgul.

Some people say the great eagles would've triumphed against Ringwraiths. My opinion is opposite. The winged beasts, while not actual dragons, are rumored to be related to them. Pitiful in "dragon league", yes, but still larger and fierces than eagles. And moreover; they were only steeds and servants of their masters; the _ulairi_, Nightmare and Death nine times over. Remember what Witch-king did at the fords of Bruinen? He frightened Asfaloth and broke Frodo's sword from distance. At Pelennor fields he splintered Eowyn's shield and arm with one blow. She and Merry had their sword-arms paralyzed, sank into coma and were dying just beacuse they took a hit at him. Makes Darth Vader look like an easy opponent if you ask me.. 

And if the eagles had carried elven lords at Sammath Naur, Sauron would've noticed them even farther away, and stationed an army or few onto Orodruin. In the book it was stated several times that when it came to warfare, Sauron wiped the floor with Free peoples. Gandalf said Glorfindel was not enough to do the deed, and I think that rules the eagles out as well.

And the final moment: dropping the Ring into the Fire. I think nobody could do it on purpose. Nobody. (To me this is excellent twist of the story; Frodo is sent to a trip seemingly impossible. Wondrously he succeedes; he manages to reach Sammath Naur - only to find out that another task is at hand, and this time it really is absolutely and fundamentally impossible.)

Just my opinions, of course. But I tried my best to fit it in with Tolkien's supposed thoughts, because after all, he decided that eagles didn't do it, and I want to see some reasoning behind it. My conclusion: eagles couldn't do it, and they and/or White Counsil knew it.

Eagles are cool, but they can't do everything.


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## Gilgallad II (Sep 21, 2003)

I agree with Thuringwethil that the Eagels could'nt have dropped the ring into Mt.Doom. But I disagree about the nazgul . Like Feanorian said the original Eagels fought the Dragons of Morgoth .


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## Thuringwethil (Sep 22, 2003)

Yes, the eagles of the First Age were match for dragons (although not 1-to-1 I believe). However if one thinks Tolkien's main theme of fading, the eagles of the Third Age were propably considerably less mighty than their ancestors.

And on Pelennor Fields (not sure about exact wording, had to do a re-translation): "..if it was a bird, it was greatest of all birds.." and "..greater than all flying beings.." I include eagles there. Of course size isn't everything but personally I got the image that winged beasts ruled their air-space.

Plus there are the Nazgul. I doubt the eagles were capable to resist the terror that freaked out Asfaloth, drove rangers away from the Athrad Sarn, and put fear in the hearts of Istari. Maybe, but I doubt. Haven't found any text about the subject, though. But considering the Ringwraiths seem to be the ultimate device of horror (whereas dragons and balrogs were more devastating physically), I believe that at most only Gwaihir would've been able to stand against them; and one eagle, even Gwaihir himself, against nine beasts and their masters isn't battle; it's suicide.

Of course, this is again my speculation. My image of M-E just happens to embrace the concept of "desperate fight", where the enemy is nightmarishly powerful and can be vanquished only through great sacrifices, if even then. When I write "fan-fiction" about M-E, I tend to travel even more desperate and dark paths than Tolkien himself. I took his images of Fingon's torn flag trampled to bloody mud, of Gorlim deceived, captured and forced to betray his lord, only to be executed for it, of Celebrimbor's tortured body impaled on sauron's flagpole, of Isildur spitting blood on the bank of Anduin, alone, naked, betrayed and ultimately lost. I build my image from these pictures, and make my own "sub-story" accordingly. Happy endings, too, but they come with a price.

Hmm.. Drifting again I guess.. But there's some reasoning behind my reasoning, if somebody cares.


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## WishIWasArwen (Oct 4, 2003)

Boromir:
"Not with 10,000 men could you do this. It is folly."

What makes you think some eagles, even oversized, wizard-enhanced, Elf-enchanted ones could do it?
Plus yeah, there'd be no story, thus there'd be no books, thus there'd be no movies, thus there'd be no boards, thus there'd be no THETOLKIENFORUM.COM...it's all one big "thus".
And yet again, when the world's in turmoil (wars, famines, chocolate shortages, etc.), we can't expect God to come down here and fix everything, so why would Middle-Earth expect that of the Valar?


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## FIRELILY (Oct 6, 2003)

What would make us think 2 little creatures called Hobbitts could do it? BUT there'd be no story, there'd be no story.


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## Ithrynluin (Oct 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by WishIWasArwen _
> *Boromir:
> "Not with 10,000 men could you do this. It is folly."
> *



That is the movie talking out of you. 

10,000 men is not such a great number really. If the peoples of Middle Earth even TRIED to defeat Sauron by force they would have required an immense force. I'm thinking around 100,000 and more. Aragorn led about 6,000 men to the final battle at the Morannon. The chief of the Nazgul wielded a great force at the Siege of Gondor (There were 18,000 of the Haradrim alone, plus a great force of Easterlings and an enormous host of Mordor Orcs), yet this was but one army among many that Sauron had prepared.



> What makes you think some eagles, even oversized, wizard-enhanced, Elf-enchanted ones could do it?



Because they were pretty much peerless among the winged creatures, there were none or very few that could stop them. Only the Nazgul come to mind, and perhaps their winged steeds. But it would be difficult for them to foresee the exact moment when the Eagles would strike, and therefore difficult to prevent it.

But the people of M-E had to learn to fend for themselves, the Valar could offer help, but not intervene directly.


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## Kelonus (Oct 6, 2003)

WishIwasArwen is right. Especially those dragon like creatures could of probably killed the eagles. Did someone metion this? I didnt read of the replies, but if someone did, I agree also. The story is great no matter what.


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## Thuringwethil (Oct 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by FIRELILY _
> What would make us think 2 little creatures called Hobbits could do it?



Stealth and surprise. Sauron and his minions didn't know hobbits, they were comparable to elves in hiding and sneaking, and their ability to resist Ring was superior. Eagles were old news and not very secretive, flying in open air. Also Ring would've played tricks with them, I think.



> _by Ithrynluin_
> If the peoples of Middle Earth even TRIED to defeat Sauron by force they would have required an immense force.



True. Elrond says, in the book, that an elven army of old wouldn't be enough. Whether he meant Beleriand Wars or Last Alliance, the statement indicates that Sauron was unbeatable when it came to arms. He had learned his lesson well; He was forced to strategical retreat/imprisonment before Numenorean might, and lost against Last Alliance. This time He took no chances; I believe He had enough armies to trample all over Arda, back and forth.



> Because they were pretty much peerless among the winged creatures, there were none or very few that could stop them. Only the Nazgul come to mind, and perhaps their winged steeds.



Only the nazgul and their steeds, yes, but that's enough I think. "Greatest of all flying creatures" or something like that, and insanely fast. And nazguls riding them; things that can knock one into coma from a distance (Bad.. I mean _Black_ Breath).



> But it would be difficult for them to foresee the exact moment when the Eagles would strike, and therefore difficult to prevent it.



Difficult for nazguls? Well, yeah, but who cares, because it'd be Sauron checking for them. And *He* would see. He sees far on his own, and he has palantir to add there. He can mess with weather across vast distances and command Orodruin at will.

People, don't underestimate Tolkien. A plot hole this big? And eagles weren't that superior in "the Hobbit". They were mortally afraid of mannish longbows. Sauron had a bit more than longbows..

(Whoa, what a rant. Don't take it too seriously, I just like to underline the power of the baddies, makes the heroes look better, too.  )


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## Ithrynluin (Oct 6, 2003)

> And nazguls riding them; things that can knock one into coma from a distance (Bad.. I mean Black Breath).



We don't know whether the Black Breath would have any effect on the Eagles. They are, after all, servants of Manwë, and a force to be reckoned with.



> Difficult for nazguls? Well, yeah, but who cares, because it'd be Sauron checking for them. And He would see. He sees far on his own, and he has palantir to add there. He can mess with weather across vast distances and command Orodruin at will.



If Sauron was busy overseeing a war somewhere - for example, the final battle before the Morannon - how vigilant would he have been in that moment? How much heed would he have paid to anything besides the Captains of the West and the taste of victory that was forming in his mouth?

We also must not underestimate the Eagles' speed. I believe they were the swiftest creatures in Middle-Earth. It all depends on how quickly they would have been spotted by some spy of Sauron. And even then, there's a good chance that they could have been successful in their mission.

But the thing is, the Eagles would not have done it. There is no plot hole at all. The Valar did their duty in sending the Istari to Middle Earth, to help the free peoples in countering Sauron. But even they were forbidden to fight Sauron directly. The Eagles did not fight the battles for the people of Middle Earth, they only lent a helping hand in dire straits, to salvage something beautiful or precious.

The Eagles did not fight Morgoth in Fingolfin's stead. They intervened only _after_ the battle was over, and badly scarred Melkor's face with their claws, so that he would remember it forever.

The Eagles did not assist Gandalf in defeating the Balrog on top of Zirak-Zigil. They intervened _after_ the battle was over, and carried him to Lórien, whence he could continue his mission.

The Eagles did not throw the Ring into Orodruin. They intervened only _after_ the deed was done, to save the precious lives of Frodo and Sam from ruin.

There are a few more examples like that.

So again, let me reiterate: *There is no plot hole!*


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