# Ecthelion and glorfindel fought in all the battles of beleriand?



## Aragorn II Elessar (Mar 25, 2021)

Their names are not mentioned in the silmarillion book. but on this site it is written that ecthelion and glorfindel fought in dagor aglareb and dagor bragollach in the battle of lammoth. is it true? Is there any truth to it?








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## ulfang (Mar 25, 2021)

it is mentioned in the silmarillion that they fort int he armies of gondolin in Nirnaeth Arnoediad though i dont know about the other battles


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## Elthir (Mar 25, 2021)

I wouldn't generally recommend this site, although I doubt the owners claim it represents
"pure Tolkien" in any case -- for example, Glorfindel is said to have a sibling named Neurinya.
N-who-nya?

*Ecthelion of the Fountain*, as far as I recall, Glorfindel and Ecthelion are not named at the battles you mentioned in your post above, but that said, one or the other or both could have fought at Lammoth for example.

In the constructed Silmarillion as published in 1977, Fingolfin's host does not fight in the Battle Under The Stars, and after passing the Grinding Ice *"marched from the North unopposed through the fastness of the realm of Morgoth, and he passed over Dor-daedeloth, and his foes hid beneath the earth"* . . .

. . . but in a late note to _The Shibboleth of Feanor, _Fingolfin's third son Argon dies in the Battle of the Lammoth. We know that Glorfindel left Valinor "in the host" of Turgon (in a late note it's even stated that Turgon had been elected supreme leader of the Noldorin hosts, with reference to Finarfin's "third host" . . . but then Fingolfin appears to return . . . so let's put that muddle aside for now).

Fingolfin takes part in the Dagor Aglareb (which occurred before Gondolin was founded at least) -- again, no _specific_ mention of Glorfindel or Ecthelion that I recall here either.

Of course, everyone's usually somewhere 🐾

But with respect to the Dagor Bragollach anyway, this happens after Turgon departed for Gondolin, and I'd say Glorfindel and Ecthelion didn't take part in this battle.


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## naretari (Mar 28, 2021)

The New Notion Club archives is fan-made materials for roleplaying games - it's fanfiction, essentially. They declare themselves "dedicated to _Expanded Arda_, non-canonical sub-creation within J. R. R. Tolkien's World of Arda". I wouldn't trust anything I found on that site.
I agree with Elthir on the battles. Turgon and the Gondolindrim weren't at the Dagor Bragollach, and hence Glorfindel and Ecthelion wouldn't have been either.
Since it's reasonable to imagine that Turgon's host would have followed his father's host quite closely, I think it very plausible that Glorfindel and Ecthelion could have fought at Lammoth and the Dagor Aglareb.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Mar 28, 2021)

Possibly yes about Dagor Aglareb , but only possibly. After all, chances were that they might not get promoted into high rank officers yet. The command was still in Fingolfin's hands during Dagor Aglareb. During Dagor Bagollach, Gondolin wasn't among the frontal military operation against Morgoth obviously, after all, the elves wouldn't need to send max combat personnel in such long period consuming siege due to economic reasons, in particular those states almost the most distant from Angaband, no sources mentioned any high rank officers took part either. Even if both these 2 big guys took part into frontal combat of Dagor Bagollach, who should take charge to make the Gondolin's War machine work?Don't forget, these 2 big guys were the 1st office of main ministers of Gondolin domestic stuff.


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## Aragorn II Elessar (Mar 31, 2021)

naretari said:


> The New Notion Club archives is fan-made materials for roleplaying games - it's fanfiction, essentially. They declare themselves "dedicated to _Expanded Arda_, non-canonical sub-creation within J. R. R. Tolkien's World of Arda". I wouldn't trust anything I found on that site.
> I agree with Elthir on the battles. Turgon and the Gondolindrim weren't at the Dagor Bragollach, and hence Glorfindel and Ecthelion wouldn't have been either.
> Since it's reasonable to imagine that Turgon's host would have followed his father's host quite closely, I think it very plausible that Glorfindel and Ecthelion could have fought at Lammoth and the Dagor Aglareb.


So are there any middle earth books in which ecthelion and glorfindel took part in the battle of dagor aglareb and battle of lammoth?


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## Elthir (Mar 31, 2021)

Anyway,* my* answer is: as of today and as far as I know, there are no Tolkien-written texts in which Ecthelion or Glorfindel *are mentioned* in either of these battles.

We don't get a ton of detail with respect to either battle in any case, but we know *Argon* fought at Lammoth for example, because he was slain there.


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## Aragorn II Elessar (Apr 4, 2021)

Elthir said:


> Anyway,* my* answer is: as of today and as far as I know, there are no Tolkien-written texts in which Ecthelion or Glorfindel *are mentioned* in either of these battles.
> 
> We don't get a ton of detail with respect to either battle in any case, but we know *Argon* fought at Lammoth for example, because he was slain there.


So how could these elves be commanders? Are there any chances that they fought in the wars I mentioned?


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## Elthir (Apr 4, 2021)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> ( . . . ) Are there any chances that they fought in the wars I mentioned?



I think this much has already been answered by two "possibles" and one "plausible" 

For example, did Fingon fight at the Kinslaying? According to *The Annals of Aman* and Christopher Tolkien's constructed *Silmarillion* (warning: mutliple f-sounds follow), the Feanoreans were succoured by Fingon with the foremost of Fingolfin's host . . .

. . . so, presumably yes. In any case Fingon was there . . .

. . . but then there's a text in Tolkien's *Quenta Silmarillion*, section 72, in which it it explicitly said that Fingon *"had no part in that deed"* (which writing, in any case, preceded AAM). The point here is not about the external textual situation actually . . .

. . . but its illustration of folks who were arguably somewhere -- some-where where-some fight or battle took place -- that yet need not have taken part in a given battle.

Or something


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## Aragorn II Elessar (Apr 9, 2021)

Elthir said:


> I think this much has already been answered by two "possibles" and one "plausible"
> 
> For example, did Fingon fight at the Kinslaying? According to *The Annals of Aman* and Christopher Tolkien's constructed *Silmarillion* (warning: mutliple f-sounds follow), the Feanoreans were succoured by Fingon with the foremost of Fingolfin's host . . .
> 
> ...


So if the film of silmarillion comes out, will glorfindel and ecthelion fight in battle of lammoth and dagor aglareb?


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## Hisoka Morrow (Apr 10, 2021)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> So if the film of silmarillion comes out, will glorfindel and ecthelion fight in battle of lammoth and dagor aglareb?


Maybe only being mentioned in the latter contents, or as minor parts, after all, they seemed not to be some enough guys in the military during Dagor Aglareb.


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## Elthir (Apr 10, 2021)

And if a filmmaker uses the constructed *Silmarillion* as a source, there is no Battle of Lammoth.

That said, some filmmakers do what they want . . . so maybe someday we'll see Glorfindel at the
*Battle of Bywater.*


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## Oromedur (Apr 10, 2021)

As for the Dagor Aglareb, there are some reasonable assumptions that can be made. Fingolfin’s forces of course fought, so we can reasonably assume Turgon’s involvement. If we can assume that, we can assume Glorfindel and Ecthelion.



Hisoka Morrow said:


> Possibly yes about Dagor Aglareb , but only possibly. After all, chances were that they might not get promoted into high rank officers yet. The command was still in Fingolfin's hands during Dagor Aglareb. During Dagor Bagollach, Gondolin wasn't among the frontal military operation against Morgoth obviously, after all, the elves wouldn't need to send max combat personnel in such long period consuming siege due to economic reasons, in particular those states almost the most distant from Angaband, no sources mentioned any high rank officers took part either. Even if both these 2 big guys took part into frontal combat of Dagor Bagollach, who should take charge to make the Gondolin's War machine work?Don't forget, these 2 big guys were the 1st office of main ministers of Gondolin domestic stuff.


At the time of the Dagor Aglareb, Gondolin did not yet exist and Turgon was at Vinyamar.


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## Elthir (Apr 10, 2021)

In the _Quenta Silmarillion_ as Tolkien himself wrote it (see _The Lost Road And Other Writings_, and for later emendations, _The War of the Jewels)_, JRRT describes the wanderings of Felagund and Turgon, noting that Turgon went alone into hidden places, found the secret vale and returned to Nivrost.
And the very next paragraph begins:

(QS section 102) *"And even while Turgon and Felagund were wandering abroad, Morgoth . . ."*
made trial of the Noldor's strength and starts what became known as the Dagor Aglareb. So. Does this at least possibly mean that the Dagor Aglareb battle started, and maybe ended, while Turgon was still wandering?

Hmm.

But here we have the Annals too, and especially the Grey Annals, which illustrates that in SY 53 Turgon found the hidden vale, and that the Daglor Aglareb began in SY 60, which is notably later of course.

And for the constructed Silmarillion, Christopher Tolkien chose the introduction of the Dagor Aglareb from the Grey Annals, not from JRRT's Quenta Simarillion. The Grey Annals begins rather: *"Here Morgoth, believing the reports of his spies that the lords of the Eldar were wandering abroad with little thought of war . . ."*

So what's the point of this post? What does it add? Nothing really. Although I've wondered for some time if JRRT meant to do "stuff" like this given the different traditions -- unless of course, I'm the only one who thinks QS (again taken by itself) at least raises the question of where Turgon might have been when this battle began.

In the *Lay of Leithian* for example, Maglor himself is also cast into the sea, while in QS he casts the Silmaril of course. Revision or "purposed inconsistency" between traditions?

I don't know 🐾


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## Oromedur (Apr 11, 2021)

Elthir said:


> In the _Quenta Silmarillion_ as Tolkien himself wrote it (see _The Lost Road And Other Writings_, and for later emendations, _The War of the Jewels)_, JRRT describes the wanderings of Felagund and Turgon, noting that Turgon went alone into hidden places, found the secret vale and returned to Nivrost.
> And the very next paragraph begins:
> 
> (QS section 102) *"And even while Turgon and Felagund were wandering abroad, Morgoth . . ."*
> ...


Indeed, all fair points. Turgon though spent many years planning and building Gondolin in secret and if I recall if was FA 116 that the people moved their from Vinyamar and the realm started in earnest.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Apr 11, 2021)

Oromedur said:


> At the time of the Dagor Aglareb, Gondolin did not yet exist and Turgon was at Vinyamar.


That's why I didn't mention possible absence of these 2 guys during Dagor Aglareb, my dear. I wonder where I did ever say Gondolin appear before Dagor Aglareb?🤔 🤔


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## Oromedur (Apr 11, 2021)

Hisoka Morrow said:


> That's why I didn't mention possible absence of these 2 guys during Dagor Aglareb, my dear. I wonder where I did ever say Gondolin appear before Dagor Aglareb?🤔 🤔


I do apologise. It seems I misread your post.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Apr 11, 2021)

Oromedur said:


> I do apologise. It seems I misread your post.


It's ok, I hope it's not the so-called chinglish XD


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## Oromedur (Apr 11, 2021)

Hisoka Morrow said:


> It's ok, I hope it's not the so-called chinglish XD


No, it was my error. And your patronising use of “my dear” was......merited. 😆


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## Elthir (Apr 11, 2021)

Oromedur said:


> Indeed, all fair points. Turgon though spent many years planning and building Gondolin in secret and if I recall if was FA 116 that the people moved their from Vinyamar and the realm started in earnest.



Why Turgon "though" . . . I'm not sure what this is in response to specifically (from my post).

🐾


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## Oromedur (Apr 11, 2021)

Elthir said:


> Why Turgon "though" . . . I'm not sure what this is in response to specifically (from my post).
> 
> 🐾


Why not?


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## Elthir (Apr 11, 2021)

I'm wondering 'cause my earlier post has nothing to do with anything after SY 60, the year of the Dagor Aglareb, and I'm not sure what the planning of Gondolin has to do with anything in there either, so I don't understand what the "though" refers to, exactly.


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## Oromedur (Apr 11, 2021)

Elthir said:


> I'm wondering 'cause my earlier post has nothing to do with anything after SY 60, the year of the Dagor Aglareb, and I'm not sure what the planning of Gondolin has to do with anything in there either, so I don't understand what the "though" refers to, exactly.


I can’t really remember, to be honest. Is that ok?


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## Elthir (Apr 11, 2021)

Oromedur said:


> I can’t really remember, to be honest. Is that ok?



Okay. No problem


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## Aragorn II Elessar (Apr 18, 2021)

Elthir said:


> I think this much has already been answered by two "possibles" and one "plausible"
> 
> For example, did Fingon fight at the Kinslaying? According to *The Annals of Aman* and Christopher Tolkien's constructed *Silmarillion* (warning: mutliple f-sounds follow), the Feanoreans were succoured by Fingon with the foremost of Fingolfin's host . . .
> 
> ...


it says in the Wikipedia that glorfindel is following the army of the Noldor in exile. Isn't that true? If it's true, glorfindel must be at battle.





Glorfindel - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## Elthir (Apr 18, 2021)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> it says in the Wikipedia that glorfindel is following the army of the Noldor in exile. Isn't that true? If it's true, glorfindel must be at battle.



Glorfindel is one of the *Etyangoldi *(Exiled Noldor), and my previous responses were given with this in mind.


*Wikipedia* currently writes: _"Tolkien eventually decided that each Elf's name should be unique, and therefore the two Glorfindels should be one and the same."_ footnote, Michael Drout Encyclopedia

Tolkien did not decide that _all_ Elven names should be unique (and his character Nerdanel, wife of Feanor, gave two of her sons the same name), and I hope this, in my opinion misleading statement from Wikipedia, is itself an oversimplification of what is found in Michael Drout's Encyclopedia.

🐾


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## Alcuin (Apr 19, 2021)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> it says in the Wikipedia that glorfindel is following the army of the Noldor in exile. Isn't that true? If it's true, glorfindel must be at battle.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nearly everyone on the web uses Wikipedia. All the same, it has some severe but fortunately well-known shortcomings. 

Wikipedia’s a great source for a quick overview of a subject, but woefully inadequate for full investigation. For one thing, some sections (particularly related to hot-button issues, like politics: Wikipedia leans so far Left it spins in little counter-clockwise circles) are dominated by a handful of deeply prejudiced or partisan editors who quickly revert corrections in order to press their positions, often to the detriment of facts and truth. (It’s “their” truth that counts: denial of _objective_ Truth is a modern mental malady.) Wikipedia has had some infamous flops: one of the first involved former Nashville _Tennesseean_ editor John Seigenthaler in which Wikipedia refused to correct a clearly erroneous and defamatory document concerning Seigenthaler, whose Wikipedia article claimed he was involved in the assassination of Robert F Kennedy. In fact, Seigenthaler and RFK were close friends, and for a time, Seigenthaler actually worked for Kennedy. Eventually the story was corrected, but not without considerable difficulty.

NY Times article on Seigenthaler and Wikipedia
A half-way decent blog post on the controversy
Wikipedia’s article on the Seigenthaler affair (_how deep the irony!_)
Wikipedia’s list of hoaxes (that it presently admits to)
In addition, *Google has begun to deliberately skew its search results*, as Rob Braxman outlines in this recent YouTube video. (And remember: Google (now calling itself “Alphabet”) owns YouTube. Best to watch it while you still can, although it’s 20 minutes long ).


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