# Who's the Greatest Vala?



## Sivien (Sep 15, 2002)

Manwe
Mandos
Melkor (he's not exactly a Vala but...)
Ulmo
Orome


Okay....
There's been a lot of discusion about who's the greatest Vala. So here's a poll. 

P.S. Who's the Greatest Valie poll coming up


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## Ponte (Sep 15, 2002)

I voted for Ulmo, but I think that Aule shall be in the poll since he is one of the Aratar.


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## Sivien (Sep 15, 2002)

Darn!!!!!
I forgot all about Aule!!!!


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## Confusticated (Sep 15, 2002)

Tolkien says in the Silmarillion that Manwe is the greatest. I can not vote with this browser though. Now if you want to include Melkor then I say that he is the greatest, he was the greatest of The Ainur.


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 15, 2002)

Melko - the mightiest one.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Sep 19, 2002)

Manwe. He was the one who knew the most of Illuvatar's mind. I do not classify Melkor among the greatest because he is evil and evil is not at all great. I believe that Melkor was the greatest at the time of the creation of Ea, but after rebelling against Eru he lost that position and was made less by the lack of Eru's blessing on his life. He became utterly alone. Manwe would be classified as the greatest because he is nearest to the will of Illuvatar.


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## Flame of Anor (Sep 19, 2002)

Manwë because he was the ruler of the Undying Lands. Some may say that Melkor. But the Silmarillion says that Melkor's power was more diluted as he sent more and more orcs, dragons, and other various evil creatures, and as a result his power was diminished until he was finally vanquished.

-Flame


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## Lord Aragorn (Sep 19, 2002)

Manwe. He knew most of the mind of Illuvatar, and kept most true to his vision of ME. And he had considerable power.


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## YayGollum (Sep 19, 2002)

Definitely Aule. 
Here's a quote (sorry I don't know how to make it look like one): "Of the fabric of the Earth had Aule thought, to whom Iluvatar had given skill and knowledge scarce less than Melkor" 
To me, that means that Aule should have been in charge, but oh well. Manwe was more of a teacher's pet. A nice looking figurehead. I've always equated Aule to Hephaestus (ugliest of the Greek gods). Whoops! 
What powers does it say that Manwe has besides messing around with air and wind and stuff, and being able to see really far (and only when his wife is with him)? Well, he's also the Mouth of Iluvatar.  oh well. 
Melkor would be my next choice. If only he had a buddy at the beginning. Here's another quote: "But being alone he had begun to conceive thoughts of his own unlike his brethren." So sad! Poor Melkor! If only Radagast or somebody showed up and said, "Hey, dude. Let's sing about Fastitocalon or something!"  
sorry. I probably ranted. Whoops! Yay Aule and Melkor!


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## LúthienTinúviel (Sep 19, 2002)

Melkor was only numbered among the Valar at the Beginning, during the Ainulindalë. 

Tolkien, at the beginning of the Valaquenta, rejects Melkor as a Vala:


> Melkor is counted no longer among the Valar, and his name is not spoken upon Earth.



If you want to include him, then he takes the biscuit because of this:



> Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor...


~_Silmarillion_ - Ainulindalë

YayGollum - as far as your quote about the might of Aulë - I believe what Tolkien meant was that in the skill of crafts and making things, Aulë was scarce less in might than Melkor - but there were many other gifts given Melkor which surpassed the skills of Aulë, though he was great among the Aratar as well. 



> Manwë and Melkor were brethren in the thought of Ilúvatar. The mightiest of those Ainur who came into the World was in his beginning Melkor; but Manwë is dearest to Ilúvatar and understands most clearly his purposes. He was appointed to be, in the fullness of time, the first of all Kings: lord of the realm of Arda and ruler of all that dwell therein.


 ~_Silmarillion_ - Valaquenta

So Manwë is the greatest in might after Melkor, who technically doesn't count. Next in the foodchain comes Ulmo:



> Ulmo is the Lord of Waters. He is alone. He dwells nowhere long, but moves as he will in all the deep waters about the Earth or under the Earth. He is next in might to Manwë


 ~_Silmarillion_ - Valaquenta

Then Aulë:


> Aulë has might little less than Ulmo.


 ~_Silmarillion_ - Valaquenta

Though of course I'm only speaking of Aratar. Where the female Valar figure in in comparison is something that interests me greatly, but also something of which I'm unsure of.


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## YayGollum (Sep 19, 2002)

Huh. You think it was only skill of craft and making things? oh well. I just noticed that it didn't specify that. Whoops! Does it mention anybody else having skill (in an unspecified subject, one that I assumed was in everything. Whoops!) or knowledge (in an unspecified area, one that I assumed was everything. Whoops) scarce less than Melkor (the best)? just wondering. 
Yes, I know that there were other skills Melkor had that were better than Aule's. Melkor was definitely the best. 
It never says that Manwe is next in might to Melkor. Just that they're brethren and that Eru really liked Manwe. oh well. 
Yeah, it does say that Manwe has more might than Ulmo, and that Ulmo has more might than Aule. That's the only hole in my theory that Aule is the best. 
Hey, what's the definition of might?  No, that wouldn't work. I think might just meant that since Manwe was in charge of the sky stuffs, he could watch out for his kingdom really well. Make storms and stuff. I don't know. Ulmo was next because water's all over the place, and he could get news from all over the place, too. I don't know. He gets to drown bad guys. Aule is third just because he was just in charge of making mountains, and valleys, and plains, and deserts, and stuff. oh well. Poor Aule. I still think he was the smartest and should have been in charge. *runs away* Woah! That was a big rant!


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## Nenya Evenstar (Sep 20, 2002)

In the beginning Melkor was the mightiest of the Ainur.



> The mightiest of those Ainur who came into the World was in his beginning Melkor; but Manwë is dearest to Ilúvatar and understands most clearly his purposes.



Note the _ was in his beginning _. After rebelling against Illuvatar, I believe that Melkor forefitted his rights to being the greatest in the mind of Illuvatar. With this forefitting came the loss of his being the mightiest, thus making Manwe the mightiest and the greatest Valar.

I still feel like pressing this point. 

Also, are we talking about might or greatness? If it is might, then I have given my answer up above, but if it is greatness, then I would put Manwe first and foremost even from the beginning of time before Melkor became corrupted. Understanding the mind of The One is a much more valuable tool than strength, and Melkor possessed none of this wizdom.


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## YayGollum (Sep 20, 2002)

Yeah, I'd agree that Melkor became less powerful later. Maybe. But still, so what if Manwe is dearest to Iluvatar and understands most clearly his purposes? That doesn't mean that he's the biggest and the bestest at everthing. oh well. It just means that he was the teacher's pet. Ack!


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## Gil-Galad (Sep 20, 2002)

The most powerful no doubt is Manwe.But the greatest is Ulmo,because he never forgets the people and the elves in Arda.


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## YayGollum (Sep 20, 2002)

Argh! Is there just something wrong with me? Why are most people so sure that Manwe is the best? *stresses out*


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## Gil-Galad (Sep 20, 2002)

Because some of them don't see the difference between "powerful" and "greatness".Powerful is about the strenght(physical,pshychical)of the person.Greatness has different meaning.It includes not onlly the strenght,but also what a person have done during his life,his feelings,his features as a whole.
Manwe is the most powerfl(or Melkor,as you may wish).but nothing more.At the same time Ulmo is the Vala who can be mostly define as the greatest one.


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## YayGollum (Sep 20, 2002)

Got it. I can see why people might think that Ulmo could be considered to be the greatest one, but I still don't get where they come up with the evidence that Manwe is the most powerful. My quote where Aule had skill and knowledge scarce less than Melkor, I would think, would prove that Aule was the most powerful of the Valar (since Melkor isn't one). oh well.


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## Gil-Galad (Sep 20, 2002)

The fact that Manwe is the king of Valar makes most people think that because he is the king ,he is the greatest.And also they think so because Manwe and Melkor (at the beginning)were the most powerful.But I repeat it once agaim:There's difference between powerful and greatness.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Sep 20, 2002)

Read my posts Yay.  How can someone who is evil be greater than someone who is not? It is an impossibility. Melkor was evil, Manwe was not. How can someone who knows the very heart of the being who created the world be less than someone who does not? These are some evidences that Manwe is the greatest, but I think we already proved that. 

Ok, now about Manwe being the most powerful. Manwe was chosen to be the highest King and ruler of Ea. Aule was under him. The ruler is generally more powerful than the subjects. Manwe was chosen by Eru for this position. Which is greater? Someone who has his own wizdom and knowledge behind him (Aule) or someone who has the mind and the will of Eru behind him (Manwe)?


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## YayGollum (Sep 20, 2002)

Okay, dudes. I'm not talking about greatness. That seems to me to be just a bunch of opinion stuffs. It also seems to me to be that the only evidence you have that Manwe would be the most powerful is that he was put in charge. The only reason I see that Manwe was put in charge was because he was Iluvatar's favorite. Can we agree on that? It's not Aule's fault that Iluvatar liked Manwe more. *hides*


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## Gil-Galad (Sep 20, 2002)

YayGollum,did you see?All think Manwe is the greatest because he is the most powerful Vala.Exactly what I said.But it seemed that Nenya Evenstar didn't read what I had written.


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## Khamul (Sep 21, 2002)

> To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of *power* and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren. He had gone often alone into the void, and he was impatient of its emptiness. Yet he found not the Fire, for it is with Ilúvatar. But being alone he had begun to conceive thoughts of his own unlike those of his brethren.





> * All think Manwe is the greatest because he is the most powerful Vala*


Manwe was not the most powerful, he was the most wise which is why he was given the position of leader. The most powerful are not always the best leaders, never assume that.


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## YayGollum (Sep 21, 2002)

Don't worry about it, Gil-Galad person. Will you just tell me why people think that Manwe is the most powerful? I get why they think he's the greatest. Now, to the evil sting person, where do you get that Manwe was the most wise? I'm guessing that knowledge and wisdom are two different things, so you might be saying that Manwe deserves to be in charge because you think he was the wisest, while Aule only had the most knowledge.


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## Khamul (Sep 21, 2002)

> Though Manwë is their King and holds their allegiance under Eru, in majesty they are peers, surpassing beyond compare all others, whether of the Valar and the Maiar, or of any other order that Ilúvatar has sent in to Eä.



Manwe was given the given the power because:



> *But Manwë Súlimo, highest and holiest of the Valar, sat upon the borders of Aman, forsaking not in his thought the Outer Lands.* For his throne was set in majesty upon the pinnacle of Taniquetil, the highest of the mountains of the world, standing upon the margin if the sea. Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world. Thus they brought word to him of well nigh all that passed in Arda; yet some things were hidden even from the eyes of Manwë, for where Melkor sat in his dark thought impenetrable shadows lay.
> * Manwë has no thought for his own honour, and is not jealous of his power, but rules all to peace.* The Vanyar he loved best of all the Elves, and of him they received song and poetry; for poetry is the delight of Manwë, and the song of words is his music. His raiment is blue, and blur is the fire of his eyes, and his sceptre is of sapphire, which the Noldor wrought for him; and he was appointed to be the vicegerent of Ilúvatar , King of the world of Valar and Elves and Men, and the chief defence against the evil of Melkor. With Manwë dwelt Varda the most beautiful, she who in the Sindarin tongue is named Elbereth, Queen of the Valar, maker of the stars; and with them were a great host of spirits in blessedness.



He was the holiest, thus the closest to the thought of Eru, and this connection gave to him great wisdom.


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## YayGollum (Sep 21, 2002)

Got it. I'll go with that. He was the wisest. Aule had the most skill and knowledge. Too bad the title of this thread is who was the greatest Vala and everyone thinks that Manwe is the greatest just because Eru let him be in charge!  *runs away*


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## ApplCobbler (Sep 21, 2002)

I guess I'm the only one who chose Orome....

He just seems so cool to me. He rides around on a silver horse with gold rims (i mean hooves of course). *BLING BLING*   


He has a plethora of great hounds, among them was Huan, Captain of Hounds. He is also the one who found the elves, and led them to the sea.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Sep 22, 2002)

Ok, so we all agree that Manwe is the greatest (except for Yay, but he ran away ).

Gil-Galad, I'm a little confused as to what you mean by me not reading your post... I did read it and just felt like putting a little of my own emphasis in there...  I think we're having a problem with our classification of power and greatness. So, for the rest of this thread, let's say that power=strength and greatness=greatness, if that even makes any sense.

Ok, here's a summary:
Manwe is the greatest IMO (sorry Yay and ApplCobbler) because he is the closest to the mind of Illuvatar and was picked by him to be the head of Ea.

Who was the most POWERFULL as in strength-wise? This would be Tulkas. Not, Melkor. I also think that if Melkor and Manwe got in a fight that Manwe would win without a doubt because Eru would not see the Vala whom he had set up as king be defeated by such an evil being...


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## LúthienTinúviel (Sep 22, 2002)

I absolutely agree with you, Nenya, about the reasons for Manwë being the greatest, and also about Tulkas, though I am not so sure than strength should be the only attribute of power.


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## YayGollum (Sep 23, 2002)

Argh! I guess I was just trying to say that Aule should have been in charge. It never says why Manwe was chosen to rule, besides stinky stuffs like, oh, he was Iluvatar's favorite. Ick. The Sil. definitely says that Aule had the most skill and knowledge, so why wasn't he in charge!?! Ack! *bangs head on a wall*


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## Nenya Evenstar (Sep 23, 2002)

Luthien, yes, strength should probably not be the only attribute if power. I was just using it as that because we were not understanding each other because half of us were talking about strength and half of us were talking about greatness... Grrr... the bad thing about having to type everything instead of speaking things directly out...

*Nenya laughs at Yay who is still banging his head on the wall. Don't hurt yourself there... *


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## Gil-Galad (Sep 28, 2002)

Nenya Evenstar,no doubt Manwe is great because he is closest to the mind of Eru,but I think that's not enough.He's Valar's king,ok,but that's not enough too.What does he do during all that time?He is just sitting,watching and thinking.Well,to be the greatest much more things are required.
Look Ulmo,for example.He loves people and elves more than anyone else.He is the only one who never stops helping them,he never forgets them.Ulmo does everything he can for them.He is the reason for people and elves' surviving.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Sep 30, 2002)

I guess it's just from whose perspective you look at. From the Vanyar's perspective it would undoubtedly be Manwe, but from the Teleri's perspective it would be Ulmo. From Illuvatar's point of view it would probably be Manwe. The One likes Ulmo the best....


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 5, 2002)

I most like him,too.....


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