# The origin of the Orcs and matters touching thereon



## Randir (Jun 24, 2005)

Hi! I am new to this forums, but not new to Tolkienology. I write to another (smaller) forum, but this time I want to share my work with you. I have written an extensive essay under title "The origin of the Orcs and matters touching thereon".

Here are the links

http://m3ntos.eu.org/The%20origin%20of%20the%20orcs%20v.2.htm (htm version)
http://m3ntos.eu.org/The%20origin%20of%20the%20orcs%20v.2.doc (doc version)
http://m3ntos.eu.org/The%20origin%20of%20the%20orcs%20v.2.pdf (pdf version)

If it is not appropriate forum for this post, please change it's location.
I am looking forward to your comments.

Marek Wypych aka Randir


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## Randir (Jun 24, 2005)

And here goes a little less readable copy:






*The origin of the Orcs and matters touching thereon



by Marek Wypych



Foreword



“The origin of the Orcs is a matter of debate.”(1)



This small essay was written to address the problem of creation of the Orcs. Tolkien changed the idea himself fairly often, and it seems that he was never fully satisfied with the answer. I will try to present some of the major theories consistent with Professor’s writings. Unfortunately there is no undisputable answer, and furthermore if the published “Silmarillion” is regarded as ‘canon’ then some theories are irrelevant to some degree and are perhaps merely wishful thinking. Fortunately: “my [Tolkien’s] world is highly imperfect even on its own plane nor made wholly coherent – our Real World does not appear to be wholly coherent either”(2)



Every quote from Tolkien’s writings is given in italics between the quotation marks.

References to the quotes are to be found at the end of text.







Chapter I. Of the creation of life.



“But since they are servants of the Dark Power [Melkor], and later of Sauron, neither of whom could, or would, produce living things”(3)



That statement is repeated so many times that there is really no need to bring up consecutive quotes. It remains uncertain though what did Tolkien understood under the ‘living things’ term. Generally (biological) life should exhibit movement, respiration, sensitivity, growth, excretion, nourishment and reproduction. The six first principles seem to be quite easy for Melkor to fulfil. Could Melkor achieve the seventh requirement? Most probably – yes: 



“But if he had indeed attempted to make creatures of his own in imitation or mockery of the Incarnates, he would, like Aulë, only have succeeded in producing puppets.”(1)



Now the archetypal dwarves of Aulë could in my opinion reproduce, as they were made in the semblance of Children of Ilúvatar. The real difference was the independence, that in biological terms is not the requisite of ‘life’. 



“the creatures of thy hand and mind can live only by that being, moving when thou thinkest to move them, and if thy thought be elsewhere, standing idle”(4)

“But the Orcs were not of this kind[robot-like puppets]”(1)

“As the case of Aulë and the Dwarves shows, only Eru could make creatures with independent wills, and with reasoning powers.”(1)



The full statement should be then:



“Melkor could not 'create' living 'creatures' of independent wills.” (1)



It indicates both ‘biological life’ and ‘independent will’, which no creations of any save Eru fulfil.

Chapter II. The Mockery of the Children of Ilúvatar.



“But he [Melkor] desired rather to subdue to his will both Elves and Men, envying the gifts with which Ilúvatar promised to endow them; and he wished himself to have subject and servants, and to be called Lord, and to be a master over other wills.”(5)



Yet Melkor could not wholly subdue Men, even less the Elves, and always there were many ready to oppose him. He then desired to devise his own servants and because “he could make nothing save in mockery of the thought of others”(6) he bred the hideous race of Orcs in order to taunt Children. “The idea of breeding the Orcs came from Melkor, not at first maybe so much for the provision of servants or the infantry of his wars of destruction, as for the defilement of the Children and the blasphemous mockery of the designs of Eru.”(1)



Originally “The hoards of the Orcs he made of stone, but their hearts of hatred”(7) and “all that race were bred by Melko of the subterranean heats and slime. Their hearts were of granite and their bodies deformed; foul their faces which smiled not, but their laugh that of the clash of metal”(29). The stone/slime Orcs wholly made by Melkor cannot fulfill the demands of ‘true life’ as “naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance of life, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion in the Ainulindalë before the Beginning”(8). Therefore the idea was abandoned very early. Only Eru had power to put Flame Imperishable (a spirit of true, idependent life) into creations:

“He [Melkor] had gone often alone into the void places seeking the Imperishable Flame... Yet he found not the fire, for it is with Ìluvatar.”(5) 

Ilúvatar could always, of course, sanction the creations of subcreators, as he did with the Dwarves of Aulë, but “Eru would not sanction the work of Melkor so as to allow the independence of the Orcs.”(1)



There is, although, another possibility: that Orcs were after all merely puppets controled remotedly by the will of Melkor, and as such not living, independent creatures. Unfortuately even if such Orcs existed, they are not explicitly refered to.

“and when Morgoth was at last removed from Arda the Orcs that survived in the West were scattered, leaderless and almost witless, and were for a long time without control or purpose.”(1) However this was the same case as with downfall of Sauron “so the creatures of Sauron, orc or troll or beast spell-enslaved, ran hither and thither mindless; and some slew themselves, or cast themselves in pits”(12) and Sauron did not create Orcs. Moreover “his [Melkor] creatures would have acted only while the attention of his will was upon them”(1) and there is no reference of Orcs just stopping to do anything, they are aimless, even reduced to ant-like form, especially those “who dwelt long under the immediate attention of his will”(1), but recover with time. Although Tolkien admits that: “there might be other 'makings' all the same which were more like puppets filled (…) with their maker's mind and will, or ant-like operating under direction of a queen-centre.”(2) whose wills “are part of Melkor's power 'dispersed'. Their spirit is one of hate. (...) A finite sub-creator (...) really wants absolute loving obedience, but it turns into robotic servitude and becomes evil”(1), he states ‘more like puppets’ not ‘like puppets’.

*


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## Randir (Jun 24, 2005)

*Chapter III. The Incarnates.*



Another, much easier, way of creating Orcs was to use beings already able to incarnate or to be embodied, namely lesser Maiar.



“_But always among them (as special servants and spies of Melkor, and as leaders) there must have been numerous corrupted minor spirits who assumed similar bodily shapes. (These would exhibit terrifying and demonic characters.)_”(1)



“_Some of these things _[hunting elves]_ may have been phantoms and delusions; but some were, no doubt, shapes taken by the servants of Melkor, mocking and degrading the very forms of the Children. For Melkor had in his service great numbers of the Maiar, who had the power, as had their Master, of taking visible and tangible shape in Arda_.”(1)



“_Melkor had corrupted many spirits - some great as Sauron, or less as Balrogs. The least could have been primitive Orcs.__”(1)_



This poses some questions and possible contradictions with established lore:



Did Maiar-Orcs reproduce?



That is, I deem, the most difficult question concerning Orcs that I came across. The quote: “_but by practising when embodied procreation they would (…)_[become] _more and more earthbound, unable to return to spirit-state_”(1) plainly states that they could do this. 

On the other hand in the same passage Tolkien seems to contradict it: *“Huan and Thorondor could be Maiar - *_*emissaries of *__*Manwë. But unfortunately in The Lord of the Rings Gwaihir and Landroval are said to be descendants of Thorondor*_"(1). Of the uncorrupted Maiar Tolkien permits only Melian to have descendants: “_Melian alone of all those spirits assumed a bodily form, not only as raiment but as a *permanent habitation* in form and powers like to the bodies of the Elves__”(10) and “*The only case** [binding to incarnation as to beget] that is known in the histories of the Eldar is that of Melian who became the spouse of King Elu-Thingol”(11). It may be assumed that Tolkien was concerned here with the improbability of Maiar-Eagles because of last quote (from Osanwe-kenta), but *_one could note that the ‘eagle’ reference comes (chronologically) earlier and does not have significant connotation with the _Osanwe_ essay.

*In my opinion Maiar-Orcs could reproduce (especially since nothing indicates that they couldn’t, and Tolkien admits this power to Ainur in the Osanwe-kenta), but they did not or did so very rarely. Why? Because otherwise Melkor would not need to breed Orcs from other source, and would not miss a chance to populate Middle Earth with longevious, powerful servants (and we know that Orcs were not). Alternatively Maiar could not reproduce enough quickly, though I doubt that Melkor would not overcome such problem, or an overwhelming majority of them choose a male form. A final possibility is that Morgoth wanted more submissive and tractable soldiers than Maiar.*



Are there any possible examples of Maiar-Orcs in Tolkien writings/stories? 



_"__Boldog, for instance, is a name that occurs many times in the tales of the War. Boldog was not a personal name, and either a title, or else the name of a kind of creature: the Orc-formed *Maiar*, only less formidable than the Balrogs.__"_(1)



If we interpret “The Lord of the Rings” and “The Hobbit” in the light of late writings, then there are more examples.

Evidence is somewhat speculative (in its interpretation), and it demands assumption that regular Orcs are not immortal and in fact short-lived compared to Edain (which will be addressed later on). 



Firstly, Shagrat and Gorbag.

“_and no big bosses.' 'Ah! ‘said Shagrat. `*Like old times*.'(…) that ever walked *since the bad old times, since the Great Siege*_.”(9) 

Shagrat and Gorbag, both captains/leaders seem to remember ‘bad old times’ without ‘big bosses’ which would imply at least 68 (since rebuilding of Barad-dûr) or even 1017 years (since capture of Minas Morgul by Nazgûl), the Great Siege is probably the siege of Barad-dûr 2969 years before.



The problem with Shagrat and Gorbag is that one of them passed Sam while he was wearing the Ring. It can be argued, that if they have Maiar-blood in their veins they should be rather able to see things in worlds invisible to mortal men (i.e. Sam weraring the Ring), and on the other hand appear a little exceptional in the eyes of Sam.



Another piece of evidence could be Azog and Bolg. Let’s start with Bolg. How long did he live? At the very least from 2799 (Azog’s death) to 2941 (Bolg’s death) - this is 142 years at minimum - assuming that Bolg was born the same year that his father was slain. Also it must be noted that Bolg was killed while leading his troops, which would imply that he was in prime of his life, which would put his life-span at least around 160-170 years. If Orcs are short-lived compared to Edain (who in the end of third age, the time of Azog and Bolg, scarcely reached more than 100, with the exception of the Dudndedain), then Bolg has a life-span more than two times bigger than he should. This could imply he is a Maiar or of Maiar descent. Consequently at least one of his ancestors should be a Maiar, most probably his father Azog – he was leader, and a hulk “_Azog came forth, and he was a great Orc_”(24). They would also suit the role of Maiar-Orcs being big, strong Orcs, great warriors and leaders. 

It should be marked that Tolkien wrote about Azog, Bolg, Gorbag, and Shagrat before he probably considered Maiar-Orcs, they can however become such in the light of his late essays, despite possible inaccuracies. Alternatively they could be of Maiar descent - the exceptions of rare Maiar-Orcs procreation.



Are Maiar-Orcs bound to their bodily raiment?



“_It is said that the longer and the more the same hröa is used, the greater is the bond of habit, and the less do the 'self-arrayed' desire to leave it. As raiment may soon cease to be adornment, and becomes (…) a 'habit', a customary garb. Or if among Elves and Men it be worn to mitigate heat or cold, it soon makes the clad body less able to endure these things when naked. Pengolodh also cites the opinion that if a "spirit" (…) uses a hröa for the furtherance of its personal purposes, or (still more) for the enjoyment of bodily faculties, it finds it increasingly difficult to operate without the hröa. The things that are most binding are those that in the Incarnate have to do with the life of the hröa itself, its sustenance and its propagation. Thus eating and drinking are binding (…) Most binding is begetting or conceiving (…)We do not know the axani (laws, rules, as primarily proceeding from Eru) that were laid down upon the Valar with particular reference to their state, but it seems clear that there was no axan against these things. Nonetheless it appears to be an axan, or maybe necessary consequence, that if they are done, then the spirit must dwell in the body that it used, and be under the same necessities as the Incarnate_”(11), and “_but by practising when embodied procreation they would (…)_[become] _more and more earthbound, unable to return to spirit-state_”(1). But even those who do not beget could be bound permanently to _hroä_:

“_Melkor alone of the Great became at last bound to a bodily form (…) So it was also with even some of his greatest servants_”(11)

“_though in origin a "self-arraying", it may tend to approach the state of "incarnation", especially with the lesser members of that order (the Maiar)._”(11)

If even greatest could lose the ability to free themselves from _hröa_, and the Lesser engaged in works and lives of evil are far more susceptible, it is almost certain that Maiar-Orcs are bound indissolubly.



What about the spirits, who cannot assume bodily form, but can be sent to dwell in them?



They seem to be quite abundant in Arda: Eagles, Ents, Werewolves etc. Moreover the spirits can be imprisoned: “_and Sauron brought werewolves, fell beasts inhabited by dreadful spirits that he had imprisoned in their bodies_.”(13), and they do multiply for certain: “_and he_ [Morgoth] _chose one from among the whelps of the race of Draugluin_”(13). However they appear to be were immortal (Ents) or at least longeval: “_Draugluin, a dread beast, old in evil lord and sire of the werewolves of Angband_”(13). This stands in contradiction to the short life span of the Orcs. Moreover the imprisoned spirits did not occur in enough innumerable quantities. Besides there is no mention of Melkor sending spirits to the orc-like _hröa__. All that_ do not contradict, however, the possibility of some individual Orcs of this kind, serving special roles like Maiar-Orcs do.


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## Randir (Jun 24, 2005)

*Chapter IV. The vilest deed of Melkor.



The best way to mock the Children would be to produce Orcs from Eruhini themselves. The first to come were the Firstborns – the Elves. Unfortunatelly “Melkor, ever watchful, was first aware of the awakening of the Quendi”(8), and they soon become target of his interest: “[Melkor] sent shadows and evil spirits to spy upon them and waylay them”(8) and his evil designs: “So it came to pass, (…) that if any of the Elves strayed far abroad, alone or few together, they would often vanish, and never return; and the Quendi said that the Hunter had caught them”(8). The fate of those captured is not known, “yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, (…) were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves”. 



But could have Melkor disposed of such a great power as to commit such a vile deed?



“Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren”(5), whereas his brethren “comprehended only that part of me mind of Ilúvatar from which (..) [they] came”, and though “Mighty are the Ainur”(5), “mightiest among them is Melkor”(5).

If any had the power and will to commit such a sin, it was Morgoth, “The greatest power under Eru”(1), one who “was to make and devise and begin”(1) and though “Morgoth lost (…) the greater part of his original 'angelic' powers, of mind and spirit”(1), he indeed “had immense powers of corruption and distortion of those that came into his power”(1), “while gaining a terrible grip upon the physical world”(1). Moreover “Finrod probably went too far in his assertion that Melkor could not wholly corrupt any work of Eru”(1), indicating that he could. What is more the Orcs are essencially a designed part of Arda: “I have represented at least the Orcs as pre-existing real beings on whom the Dark Lord [Melkor] has exerted the fullness of his power in remodelling and corrupting them, not making them.”(2)



Again this poses some important questions:



Are the Orcs immortal? 



“They could be slain, and they were subject to disease; but apart from these ills they died and were not immortal, even according to the manner of the Quendi; indeed they appear to have been by nature short-lived compared with the span of Men of higher race, such as the Edain”(1). The derivation from the Elves would suggest otherwise, but only at first sight. The Quendi wane and fade with time and the process is all the quicker due to the burden of life. Grevious mental hurts and great griefs could even bring them to death. “If then the hroä (…) be destroyed, or so hurt that it ceases to have health, sooner or later it 'dies'. That is: it becomes painful for the feä to dwell in it, being neither a help to life and will nor a delight to use, so that the feä departs from it, and its function being at an end its coherence is unloosed, and it returns again to the general hron of Arda.”(14) The Orcs being the most mutilated form of life would suffer most the accelerated weakening of the bodies, so that the feä would not hold very long in the ruined hroä, and their life-span would be significantly shortened.



How could Melkor make the state of the Orcs heritable, i.e. wouldn’t the offspring of the Orcs be Elves?

“I suppose that actually the chief difficulties I have involved myself in are scientific and biological (…) I might answer that this 'biology' is only a theory, that modern 'gerontology', or whatever they call it, finds 'ageing' rather more mysterious, and less clearly inevitable in bodies of human structure. But I should actually answer: I do not care. This is a biological dictum in my imaginary world. It is only (as yet) an incompletely imagined world, 
a rudimentary 'secondary'; but if it pleased the Creator to give it (in a corrected form) Reality on any plane, then you would just have to enter it and begin studying its different biology, that is all.”(2). Tolkien does not feel the pressure of making his world viable for our reality (genetics, DNA), and that is what gives him a chance to incorporate his ideas, regardless of the requirements of ‘truth’, and any questions of this sort seems to inappropriate.



Why do the Orcs breed so rapidly?



The quote: “They bred and multiplied rapidly whenever left undisturbed.”(1) would suggest that it is their natural inclination. However there could be more in this matter than meets the eye. It appears as though the Orcs were multiplying really rapidly when under the attention of some evil master Will, be it Morgoth, Sauron or Saruman:“And he [Morgoth] (…) came to the ruins of Angband. (…) There countless became the hosts of his beasts and his demons, and the race of the Orcs, bred long before, grew and multiplied in the bowels of the earth.”(15), “[Sauron] gathered again under his government all the evil things (…) and the Orcs were at his command and multiplied like flies”(16), ”The Dark Tower had been rebuilt, it was said. From there the power was spreading far and wide, (…) Orcs were multiplying again in the mountains”(17). And indeed: “One of the reasons for his [Morgoth’s] self-weakening is that he has given to his 'creatures', Orcs (…) power of recuperation and multiplication.”(1). I believe that Tolkien meant that he gave them will, power and ability to breed much faster (not just power of reproduction, as Orcs possessed it independently as living form of life) than normally (all that besides giving them good ‘natural’ conditions like food, shelter, basic security etc.). Sauron has a unique position too, as executor of Morgoth’s major designs: “Sauron escaped and lay hid in Middle-earth; and it can in this way be understood how the breeding of the Orcs (…) went on with increasing speed during the age when the Noldor dwelt in Aman”(1), also “The details of the accomplishment of this wickedness [breeding of the Orcs] were, however, left mainly to the subtleties of Sauron”(1).

*


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## Randir (Jun 24, 2005)

Although accredited, the ‘Elven Theory’ continues to present a lot of obstacles, mainly connected with the _‘spiritual side’_ of the Orcs. I would firstly like to assume that the _feär_ of the Orcs being derived from the Elves undergo the same general rules applied to _feär_ of Quendi. This is not that obvious.



What happens to the Orcs after their death? 



As the corruptions of the Elves, Orcs would also possess a _feär_, “_and dying they would go to Mandos and be held in prison till the End_”(1). However the problem is not so simple.



“_Each feä was imperishable within the life of Arda, and that its fate was to inhabit Arda to its end. (…)As soon as they were disbodied they were summoned to leave the places of their life and death and go to the 'Halls of Waiting': Mandos, in the realm of the Valar_”(14), but “_It _[feä] _cannot be brought to Mandos. It is summoned (…) *yet it* _[the summon] *may be refused*”(14) and “*refusal*_ of the summons to Mandos and the Halls of Waiting *is* (…) *frequent*_”(14), and that was among the Elves. Indeed “_it _[feär] _were already committed to the Darkness and passed then into its dominion. In like manner even of the Eldar some who had become corrupted refused the summons, and then had little power to resist the counter-summons of Morgoth_”(14), and thus *the Disbodied Orcs would be again in the power of Melkor*. “_Such practices _[mastering the houseless feär and making them servants]_ are of Morgoth; and the necromancers are of the host of Sauron his servant_”(14). Indeed Sauron is referred to as The Necromancer, and the Which King of Angmar is said to command evil spirits. Moreover “_one of the hungry Houseless (…) may seek to eject the feä from its body; and in the contest for mastery the body may be gravely injured, even if it be not wrested from its rightful habitant. Or the Houseless may plead for shelter, and if it is admitted, then it will seek to enslave its host and use both his will and his body for its own purposes. It is said that Sauron did these things, and taught his followers how to achieve them_”(14).



What might happen if some of the Orcs obey the summons of Mandos?



“_Those who willingly go to Mandos may be re-born. Re-birth is a grace, and comes of the power that Eru committed to the Valar for the ruling of Arda and the redress of its marring. It does not lie in the power of any feä in itself._”(14) But not every _feä_ could be re-born: “_Of the others, the wrong-doers, many were held long in 'waiting', and some were not permitted to take up their lives again. For there was, for all the feär of the Dead, a time of Waiting, in which, howsoever they had died, they were corrected, instructed, strengthened, or comforted, according to their needs or deserts. (…) But the feä in its nakedness is obdurate, and remains long in the bondage of its memory and old purposes (especially if these were evil)._”(14), and “_even the most guilty are long tested _[by Mandos]_, whether they may be healed or corrected, before any final doom is given (such as never to return again among the Living)_”(14). In my opinion it is extremely unlikely that any orkish _feä_ would be willing and enabled to be reborn. Firstly “_those who have done great evil (…) do not return_.”(14) Secondly in what body should they be reborn, because certainly not in orkish ones? Normally the _feä_ of deceased retained the imprinted memory of body and (corrected) mind. Moreover “_A houseless feä that chose or was permitted to return to life re-entered the incarnate world through child-birth. Only thus could it return_”(14). I cannot imagine any elven couple happy to nourish a child with ‘orkish’ origin. *Manwë* and Mandos would most assuredly not permit such things to happen.

What then? I guess that after healing they are kept imprisoned, and separate from every other _feär _for“_there is in the Halls of Waiting little mingling or communing of kind with kind, or indeed of any one feä with another._”(14). That is why there is no report of re-born Elves among other _feär_ inhabiting Halls. Finally I cannot see that even Mandos could judge in so grievous a matter as the _feär_ of the Orcs, what touches their ultimate redeemability, which 
I would say is exclusively the domain of Eru.



Whence came the _feär_ of the Orcs?



*“*_For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar_”(8). This clearly indicates that Orcs had children. Now “_the Eldar hold that to each elf-child a new feä is given, not akin to the fear of the parents (save in belonging to the same order and nature); and this feä either did not exist before birth, or is the feä of one that is re-born._”(14). As re-birth of orkish _feä_ is improbable, the only solution was a new one: “_The new feä, and therefore in their beginning all fear, they believe to come direct from Eru and from beyond Eä_”(14). That is a fair assumption, because it is to be seen that “_in all children, though in some it may be more marked and sooner apparent, there is a part of character not to be understood from parentage, to which it may indeed be quite contrary. This difference is most reasonably attributed to the feä, new and not akin to the parents_”(14). Moreover Eru could be the only source of _feär_ since: “_in my myth at any rate I do not conceive of the making of souls or spirits, things of an equal order if not an equal power to the Valar, as a possible 'delegation'_“(2).



Are the Orcs redeemable?



But here Tolkien stands himself in a difficult situation. If _feär_ comes from Eru Ilúvatar than, the Orcs could not be ultimately condemned: “_but Eru would not sanction the work of Melkor (…) (Not unless Orcs were ultimately remediable, or could be amended and 'saved'?)_”(1). That is also the feel of the Wise of Arda: “_the Wise in the Elder Days taught always that the Orcs were not 'made' by Melkor, and therefore were *not in their origin evil*. They might have become irredeemable (*at least by Elves and Men*), but they remained within the Law (…) they must not be dealt with in their own terms of cruelty and treachery. Captives must not be tormented, not even to discover information for the defence of the homes of Elves and Men. If any Orcs surrendered and asked for mercy, they must be granted it, even at a cost._”(1) Moreover “_I nearly wrote *'irredeemably bad'; but that would be going too far*. Because by accepting or tolerating their making – necessary to their actual existence – even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God's and ultimately good._”(2) additionally “_That God would 'tolerate' that, seems no worse theology than the toleration of the calculated dehumanizing of Men by tyrants that goes on today._”(2) Tolkien would presumably not create a creature that is irredeemable as “_The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision.__”(18) and in the Christian ethos every one single soul could be delivered, so “__I do not think that at any rate any 'rational being' is wholly evil._”(19).



Even so I think that in such grievous matters as redemption of Orcs only Eru could judge, with Mandos being just a keeper and possibly healer of their wretched souls.

What about the fate of crossbreads of the Orcs and Men?



There are apparently many of these: _" these creatures of Isengard, these half-orcs and goblin-men”_(20). 

“_Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me_ [Manwe]”(25). *No such direct grace of Manwe for the Orcs could be expected, so every Orcs born as a result of cross-breeding* would be mortal. And we know that becoming mortal was equal also to change of fate (Lúthien, Arwen, Elros), and I think we can safely assume the same result with the Orcs.


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## Randir (Jun 24, 2005)

*Chapter V. Beasts of evil*



These problems might have led Tolkien to the conclusion that it would be better if the Orcs had no _feär_ at all. “_Hence Orcs? Part of the Elf(…) idea gone wrong_”(1), “_Alter this. Orcs are not Elvish_”(1), and so “_Orcs are beasts_”(1).



But what of their features like possession of language and reasoning? 



“_I think it must be assumed that 'talking' is not necessarily the sign of the possession of a 'rational soul' or feä (…) Their 'talking' was really reeling off 'records' set in them by Melkor. (…) Melkor taught them speech and as they bred they inherited this; and they had just as much independence as have, say, dogs or horses of their human masters_”(1) and they were “_at least capable of learning these things _[speech and some crafts and organization]_ from higher creatures and from their Master_”(1). “_One of the reasons for his_ [Melkor’s]_ self-weakening is that he has given to his 'creatures' (...) power (...). So that they will gather again without further specific orders. Part of his native creative power has gone out into making an independent evil growth out of his control_.”(1)



And why do the Orcs have a ‘human’ looks and not animal/monster appearance? 



Surely Eru would not create such a wretched creature with tendency for enhancing brains and so closely resembling his own Children (this would plainly mean self-mockery)? No, certainly not, this was again the deed of Melkor, done in his insatiate hatred towards Children: 

“_The Orcs were beasts of humanized shape (to mock Men and Elves) *deliberately perverted /converted into a more close resemblance to Men*_”(1).



How could have Melkor pervert Beasts-Orcs into being so evil and cruel?



Some of the species of the Middle Earth seems to have a strong inclination towards evil, such as wolves, spiders, crebain and notably the fell beasts of the Nazgûl: “_a creature (...) whose kind (...) outstayed their day, and in hideous eyrie bred this last untimely brood, *apt to evil*_”(22). On the other hand Melkor had shown his power of “_increasing to the utmost any corrupt tendencies they possessed_”(1), so finally “_they _[Orcs]_ were indeed so corrupted that they were pitiless, and there was no cruelty or wickedness that they would not commit_”(1).



And yet, there are still some problems, for example again the cross-breads with humans – will the offspring be a ‘_feä_-less’ beasts or ‘_feä_-having’ type of the Orcs? There is no answer, we may only speculate. Yet it should be noticed that the result of interbreeding can be twofold: “_the interbreeding of orcs and men, producing both *Men-orcs* *large* and *cunning**,* and *Orc-men* treacherous and vile__”(1), " these creatures of Isengard, these *half-orcs* and *goblin-men*”(20). Maybe it is a general rule – the crossbread could be either one thing or other, not something indecisive in the middle._



_Yet the bigger problem is that Tolkien was not seriously considering Beast-Orcs for long. He wanted them rather to be ‘rational incarnates’ like Elves, Men and Dwarves: “__Orcs – (...) are fundamentally a race of 'rational incarnate' creatures_”(2), and “_true 'rational' creatures, 'speaking peoples', *are all* of human/'humanoid' form_”(1). Logically if the Orcs are ‘humanoid speaking peoples’ they are ‘rational incarnate’, and as such possess _feä_, hence they cannot be beasts. We may safely assume that it would also please Morgoth himself, if the breeding of the Orcs would be done by the means of defilement of the Children.





Alternatively, could it be the other way round, that Melkor ejected the _feä_ from _hroä_, thus creating Beast-Orcs?



Ejection of the _feär_ from _hroä_ would result normally in death: “[if] _the feä departs from it _[body]_, its function being at an end its coherence is unloosed, and it returns again to the general hron (…) of Arda_”(14) meaning simply that the body is dead and it dissolves. There is, of course, a contrary possibility: “_or else the feä would in loathing and without pity desert the hroä, and it would live on, a witless body, not even a beast but a monster_”(1). It is however under extremely special circumstances that “_ he _[Man in this case] _remained in Aman_”(1), where almost nothing decayed or died naturally because: “_In Aman things were far otherwise than in Middle-earth_”(1). 

Moreover _feä_ “_corresponds, more or less, to 'soul'; and to 'mind' (…) It was thus in its being (…) the impulse and power to think_”(21). Even if it would be possible for Melkor to create _feä-less _beings by ejecting the spirit, he would obtain an army with less wit than the dumbest troll. The Orcs do not appear to be of this kind at all.


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## Randir (Jun 24, 2005)

*Chapter VI. Younger Children of Ilúvatar*



“_This then, as it may appear, was my father's final view of the question: Orcs were bred from Men_”(1)

*Theologically such a view is very well grounded: “*_It accords with all that is known of Melkor, and of the nature and behaviour of Orcs - and of Men._”(1) Of the peoples of Arda Men were the most susceptible to corruption: “_Other originally independent creatures, and *Men among them (but neither Elves nor Dwarves)*, could also be reduced to a like condition_ [puppets unable to resist the will of Morgoth]”(1), moreover “_it became clear in time that undoubted Men could under the domination of Morgoth or his agents in a few generations be reduced almost to the Orc-level of mind and habits_”(1). Melkor could not wish for a better ‘source material’ for the breeding of Orcs.

Furthermore replacing the Elves with Men dealt automatically with a lot of problems:

- after death their _feär_ would not remain in the Arda, which avoids the problem of Unbodied Orcs lingering in Arda, and question connected with them

- their redeemability and judgment lays exclusively in the hands of Eru, an Ultimate Judge





How could the interbreeding of the Orcs and Men actually be achieved?



“_It became clear in time that undoubted Men could under the domination of Morgoth or his agents in a few generations be reduced almost to the Orc-level of mind and habits; and then they would or could be made to mate with Orcs, producing new breeds, often larger and more cunning_”(1). Interesting thing is that it was not so commonly known: “_afterwards, in the Third Age, Saruman rediscovered this, or learned of it in lore, and in his lust for mastery committed this, his wickedest deed: the interbreeding of Orcs and Men, producing both Men-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile_”(1). The point about Tolkien not overly concerned with rules of biology is worth mentioning here. 



Is there any reference to mannish origins of the Orcs apart from in Tolkien’s essays? 



Yes, but not as an assumption of folks, not author: “_To the unfriendly who, not knowing them well, declared that Mor&shy;goth must have bred the Orcs from such a stock_ [Drúedain] _the Eldar an&shy;swered: "Doubtless Morgoth, since he can make no living thing, bred Orcs from various kinds of Men, but the Drúedain must have escaped his Shadow; for their laughter and the laughter of Orcs are as different as is the light of Aman from the darkness of Angband." But some thought, nonetheless, that there had been a remote kinship, which accounted for their special enmity. Orcs and Drűgs each regarded the other as renegades_”(23). The implication is that Melkor found some kinds of Men more useful, which is in accord with the fact that different human ‘tribes’ were inclined to act either as foes or servants towards him.


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## Randir (Jun 24, 2005)

Unfortunately, the mannish theory, although seemingly the best, contradicts aspects of chronology that Tolkien would have had to solve when changing his opinion.



When did the Elves actually encounter the Orcs for the first time?



“_So far as can be gleaned from the legends that have come down to us from our earliest days, it would seem that the Quendi had never yet encountered any Orcs of this kind_ [the Orcs of the later wars, after the escape of Melkor and his return to Middle-earth]_ before the coming of Orom*ë* to __Cuiviénien_ [V.Y. 1085 (27)]”(1). Also “_Those who believe that the Orcs were bred from some kind of Men, captured and perverted by Melkor, assert that it was impossible for the Quendi to have known of Orcs before the Separation and the departure of the Eldar_ [V.Y. 1105 (27)]”(1) 

When did the first dated encounter happen?

“_But as the third age of the captivity of Melkor drew on (...) ere long the evil creatures came (...) and among them were the Orcs, who afterwards wrought ruin in Beleriand: but they were yet few and wary_”(26) That puts the first noted appearance of the Orcs in V.Y. 1330 (27) which is more than 1000 years before the Rising of the Sun and the beginning of the First Age.

Subsequent appearance of the Orcs is in the great mass and already after the return of Morgoth.



When is the latest time that ‘true’ Orcs could appear?



Theoretically it could be as late as V.Y. 1497 (coming of Melkor to Angband), but what about the Orcs of the previous time? “_The Orcs of the later wars, after the escape of Melkor - Morgoth and his return to Middle-earth, were neither spirits nor phantoms, but living creatures, capable of speech and of some crafts and organization_”(1). This could suggest that the Orcs encountered earlier could be something else (spirits, phantoms, Maiar-Orcs). A look at the etymology of word ‘Orc’ could help clear things a bit: “_the Elves from their earliest times invented and used a word or words with a base (o)rok to denote *anything that caused fear and/or horror*. It would originally have been applied to *'phantoms' *(spirits assuming visible forms) as well as to any *independently existing creatures*. Its application (in all Elvish tongues) specifically to the creatures called Orks - so I shall spell it in The Silmarillion - was later_”(1).Indeed “_the Elves would have classed the creatures called 'trolls' (…) as Orcs - in character and origin_”(1), so it is not certain the creatures first referred to as ‘Orcs’ are the same Orcs that appear later.



When did Men awake in Middle Earth in comparison?



“Silmarillion” states that “_at the first rising of the Sun the Younger Children of Ilúvatar awoke_”(28) (V.Y.1500), which is about 30 years after Melkor returned to Middle Earth. By that time Morgoth already had hordes of the Orcs at his command. The idea found in Myths Transformed that the Sun and Moon were wrought distinctly earlier comes from late essays, and the time is placed before coming of either Elves or Men. It appears Tolkien had given great thought to the changing of time of the awakening of Men: “_the coming of Men will therefore be much further back. This will be better; for a bare 400 years is quite inadequate to produce the variety, and the advancement (e.g. of the Edain) at the time of Felagund_”(1).



When could Melkor have bred the Orcs?



If Melkor was to corrupt Men, they should appear during his presence in Middle Earth, but “_it is plain that soon after his return Morgoth had at his command a great number of these creatures, with whom he ere long began to attack the Elves. There was still less time between his return and these first assaults for the breeding of Orcs and for the transfer of their hosts westward_”(1). It demands the time of awakening before the assault of Valar upon Melkor started in V.Y. 1090 (27), but not close to V.Y. 1050 (27) – the awakening of the Elves – otherwise the awakening of the ‘Firstborn’ and ‘Aftercomers’ would occur almost simultaneously, which is nonsenscial. That leaves us with significantly less than 40 Valian Years (roughly 400 Years of the Sun).



Unless, of course, that actual corruption of men into Orcs was not the work of Melkor?



There is no better candidate than Sauron and “_it is thus probably to Sauron that we may look for a solution of the problem of chronology_”(1). “_We may assume, then, that the idea of breeding the Orcs came from Melkor (...) The details of the accomplishment of this wickedness were, however, left mainly to the subtleties of Sauron. In that case the conception in mind of the Orcs may go far back into the night of Melkor's thought, though the beginning of their actual breeding must await the awakening of Men_”(1) and “_it can in this way be understood how the breeding of the Orcs (no doubt already begun) went on with increasing speed during the age when the Noldor dwelt in Aman; so that when they returned to Middle-earth they found it already infested with this plague_”(1). However, there are two parts of the former quotes to be mentioned: “_the *details* of accomplishment_” which implies that Sauron did not accomplish whole scheme, ‘only’ the details. Even more importantly the quote “_no doubt *already* begun_” implies that breeding the Orcs started before Elves abode in Aman (i.e. before 1132 (27)). It is then plain to be seen that the presence of Melkor in early period of Orc-breeding is required anyway.



But how is it possible that Sauron played so particular role in breeding the Orcs?



“_Though of immensely smaller native power than his Master, he remained less corrupt, cooler and more capable of calculation (...). While Morgoth still stood, Sauron did not seek his own supremacy, but worked and schemed for another, desiring the triumph of Melkor (...). He thus was often able to achieve things, first conceived by Melkor, which his Master did not or could not complete in the furious haste of his malice_”(1), “_he_ [Sauron]_ proved even more skilful than his Master also in the corruption of Men_”(1).



How can it be that Men awoke so early and encounter Elves so late?



Tolkien considered the idea that “_Men awake in an Isle amid the floods (...). Only when the world is drier do they leave the Isle and spread abroad_”(1).



However, “_though the time of the awakening of Men is not known, even the calculations of the loremasters that place it earliest do not assign it a date long before the Great March began, certainly not long enough before it to allow for the corruption of Men into Orcs_”(1). However the loremasters could be wrong about the date and “_the theory remains nonetheless the most probable_”(1).



“_Men must awake while Melkor is still in _[Middle-earth]_ - because of their Fall_”(1). 

Then Tolkien writes “_therefore in some period during the Great March_”(1), which I frankly do not understand, because Melkor was already captive in Valinor before even the preparations for the march began (I have not found any version stating otherwise). Anyway the Fall is featured as a Tale of Adanel in “_Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth_”. To cut long story short Melkor (obviously, though he is not mentioned by name) appeared among the first people as a fair Lord and ‘Giver of Gifts’ and become revered by them. When he actually seduced them, he started to require the deeds of evil, and eventually he became a tyrant demanding absolute servitude, worship and acknowledgement as ‘the One Great’, which led the Voice (certainly Eru) to declare: “_Ye have abjured Me, but ye remain Mine. I gave you life. Now it shall be shortened, and each of you in a little while shall come to Me, to learn who is your Lord: the one ye worship, or I who made him_”(21). It is, in my opinion, exactly the opposite thing that happened to Edain granted with grace of long life and peaceful passing away. Before the Fall Men did not know what death was: “_some say the Disaster happened at the beginning of the history of our people, before any had yet died_”(21). Whereas “_Thereafter we were grievously afflicted, by weariness, and hunger, and sickness; and the Earth and all things in it were turned against us. Fire and Water rebelled against us. The birds and beasts shunned us, or if they were strong they assailed us. Plants gave us poison; and we feared the shadows under trees_”(21).



Considering the chronology, there is no such date, when Men could be corrupted into the Orcs.


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## Randir (Jun 24, 2005)

*Chapter VII. Dwarves and Goblins*



I did not include deliberations about the Dwarves as a source, because Tolkien did not once refer to them as a potential source. They would probably pose difficulties with their fate, not to mention the fact that they could not be perverted and ill bear alien domination.



The origins of the Goblins were also not taken into account, as ‘goblin’ is simply the other word for the same creature: _"Orcs (the word is as far as I am concerned actually derived from Old English orc 'demon', but only because of its phonetic suitability) are nowhere clearly stated to be of any particular origin...They are not based on direct experience of mine; but owe, I suppose, a good deal to the *goblin*tradition.(*goblin* is used *as a translation* in The Hobbit, where *orc only occurs once*, I think)”__(3) and "Also the *Orcs (goblins)* and other monsters bred by the First Enemy are not wholly destroyed._"(30)







*Conclusion*



As I hopefully showed, there is no theory for the origin of the Orcs that would hold absolutely unquestionable.



Orcs without _feär_

- Orcs as witless bodies deprived of _feär_: extremely improbable and impractical

- Orcs ‘made’ by Melkor (puppets): it allows the existence of some rare, exceptional ‘robotical’ Orcs, but excludes the possibility of major numbers, because of lack of independence that Orcs should possess

- Orcs as beasts with enhanced brains: viable, but taken into account by Tolkien only for moment, as he wanted the Orcs to be ‘rational incarnate’ creatures with souls

Orcs with _feär_

- Orcs as imprisoned spirits: viable for individual Orcs, not for innumerable hordes (too longevious and realtively rare), besides not mentioned by the Professor

- Maiar-Orcs: viable, existence proved, but only for individual leaders/spies/etc.

- Elven theory: problems with the fate of deceased Orcs

- Mannish theory: theologically flawless, but not incorporated into histories (only one reference), and inconsistent with chronology 



In my opinion the Orcs could have various origins. 

For myself I would like to hold the ambiguous belief that regular *Orcs were bred from Men* (it appears to be final thought of Tolkien on that matter, even though he did not accomplish a suitable change in mythology), while acknowledging “_Silmarillion_” as canon. 

Simultanousely we know that *there were *some individual* Maiar-Orcs* (and possibly their offspring) as special servants of the Dark Lord. 

Other particular orkish minions (or inept experiments eventually aborted by Melkor) could have been puppet Orcs, perverted beasts or imprisoned spirits, yet we know of no such Orcs present in Arda mythology.



It is far from perfect, but as the History of Middle Earth was living with its own life and was never settled, it remains plausible.





Finally this is in my opinion only acceptable theory (assuming regular Orcs are bred from Men and no changes in “Silmarillion” are made *save the date of awakening of Men*), it leaves enough time between appearance of Men and Elves, and for Melkor to bring Men to Fall:



1050 V.Y. – Quendi awake at the shores of *Cuiviénien*

*ca. 1070 V.Y. – about 200 ‘normal’ years after the Elves the Younger Children awake on the island *

*ca. 1077 V.Y. – Melkor appears as Giver of Gifts to the Men*

*ca. 1080 V.Y. – Melkor discovers Quendi, (maybe “*_Then he_ [Melkor]_ went away, and we _[Men] _did not see him for a long time_”(21) could refer to the time when Melkor sent his servants to spy and waylay the Elves?)

ca. 1082 V.Y. *– the Voice announces the Fall of Men (firstborn Men were now about 120 years old – normal for *Númenóre*ans, but an age in which Men would start immediately to die, being deprived of grace) Melkor succeeded in seducing and corrupting Men, he and Sauron start the breeding of the Orcs from Men*

*1090 V.Y. – Valar start the assault upon Angband, afterwards Melkor is taken captive, but Sauron remains in Middle Earth and carry on the breeding scheme*











*And finally a word from Professor himself:*



“_Orcs. Their nature and origin require more thought. They are not easy to work into the theory and system_.”(1)












----------------------------

References:

1 – Morgoth’s Ring (HoME 10), Myths Transformed

2 – The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter #153 To Peter Hastings

3 – The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter #144 To Naomi Mitchinson

4 – Silmarillion, Of Aulë and Yavanna

5 – Silmarillion, Ainulindalë The Music of Ainur

6 – Silmarillion, Valaquenta, Of the Valar

7 – The Shaping of Middle Earth (HoME 4), The Quenta

8 – Silmarillion, Quenta Sil., Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor

9 – The Lord of the Rings, The Two Towers, The Choices of Master Samwise

10 – Peoples of Middle Earth (HoME 12), The Shibboleth of Fëanor

11 – "_Osanwe-kenta_: Enquiry into the Communication of Thought"

12 – The Lord of the Rings, The Return of the King, Field of Cormallen

13 – Silmarillion, Quenta Sil., Of Beren and Lúthien

14 – Morgoth’s Ring (HoME 10), The Later Quenta Sil., Laws and Customs among the Eldar

15 – Silmarillion, Quenta Sil., Of the Flight of the Noldor

16 – Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

17 – The Lord of the Rings, The Fellowship of the Ring, The Shadow of the Past

18 – The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter #142 To Robert Murray, S.J.

19 – The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter #183 Notes on W. H. Auden's review of _ROTK_

20 – The Lord of the Rings, The Two Towers, Helm’s Deep

21 – Morgoth’s Ring (HoME 10), Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth

22 – The Lord of the Rings, The Return of the King, The Battle of the Pelennor Fields

23 – Unfinished Tales, Part IV, The Drúedain

24 – The Lord of the Rings, Appendix A, Durin’s Folk

25 – The Lost Road and Other Writings, Quenta Silmarillion

26 – Silmarillion, Quenta Sil., Of the Sindar

27 – The War of the Jewels (HoME 11), The Grey Annals

28 – Silmarillion, Quenta Sil., Of Men

29 – The Book of Lost Tales vol.2, The Fall of Gondolin

30 – The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter #131 To Milton Waldman


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## Laire (Jun 26, 2005)

This is really great, I'm deeply impressed It's wonderful to find so much topic-related information in one place, and everything is so scientific, not like my own posts


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## Alatar (Jun 26, 2005)

Very good, one problem though, Men awoke at the rising of the sun, three ages after elves awoke. I think that if you say that before the rising of the sun, and 100 years after, all there was was Maia orcs, and Fealess ones, till they were replenished with man stock.


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## Randir (Jun 26, 2005)

Well maybe not explicitly, but I pointed it out in my essay (I can make it clearer though, if it is not). Anyway that's what I meant.

It is also to be seen that at the end Tolkien was inclined to change the time of the awakening of the Men


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## Arvedui (Jun 27, 2005)

I am rather impressed by your essay, even if I still believe that Orcs were bred from Elves, at least initialy. As Tolkien himself wrote:


> It remains therefore terribly possible there was an Elvish strain in the Orcs. These may then even have been mated with beasts (sterile!) - and later Men.


 _From Myths Transformed._ 

But perhaps it was so that Melkor used what he had at hand, and first made Orc-like beeings from twisting lesser sprits, then Elves, then finally Men?


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## Randir (Jun 27, 2005)

> It remains therefore terribly possible there was an Elvish strain in the Orcs. These may then even have been mated with beasts (sterile!) - and later Men.



Well, of course. But there are plenty of Tolkien quotes indicating something different. Tolkien is here contradicting himself. The point that his FINAL view (at least his last view that we know of) was that it was actually MEN not QUENDI who were the source.


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## Arvedui (Jun 28, 2005)

As you said yourself earlier on: it seems obvious that Tolkien was trying to figure out a way to change the cronology so that there could be no doubt that Men were indeed the origin. But as a Man, I obviously oversee that...  
Unfortunately, like his late idea on Arda Flat vs. Arda Round, he never got around to straighten out the rough spots. And it seems to me that Tolkien jr. had insufficient material when he edited _The Silmarillion_.

BTW, and I should have done this yesterday: great work on compiling and analyzing the various bits and pieces concerning the origin of Orcs. I thought I had it all figured out until i read your work. Magnificent!


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## Randir (Jun 28, 2005)

Hehe, before I started writing this essay I too thought that I know everything about it, but I was wrong and discovered many new and unfamiliar (for me aspects).

BTW. Do you think that the essay is good enough to sent it to sites like Encyclopedia of Arda and the like? I would like to hear your most sincere opinion.


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## Arvedui (Jun 29, 2005)

Yes, I think that your essay is very good. And perhaps you could find a place for it at the TolkienWiki?

If you are unfamiliar with the TolkienWiki, it is a Wikipedia made by and for Tolkien-fans like us.

---
Back to your theory: I was thinking about Tolkien's thoughts on rewriting the timeline so that the coming of Men could fit in with his thoughts on the origin of Orcs, when it struck me that such a rewriting of the chronology would not have been easy! think about it: if Men were to awake some 400 years earlier, how could Melkor have come among them and seduced them? He was in Valinor, as a captive probably) at the time.

So now I am beginning to think that the only reason for Tolkien wanting the Orcs to be made from Men, was that he didn't want them to be made from Elves. Simply.


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## Alatar (Jun 29, 2005)

One theroy is that sauron saw the sleeping men, and took some to breed the orcs with the Maia he had, then he left some there so that Melkor could seduce them, relising that they were apt to evil.


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## Arvedui (Jun 30, 2005)

As I have posted in a different thread: there is something about the history of Andreth that doesn't fit in with the _Published Silmarillion_. 

In the _Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth_, or rather The _Tale of Adanel_, it is stated that Men fell because they were ensnared by Melkor, and that after they had been taught first by Eru, someone came among them:


> Then one appeared among us, in our own form visible, but greater and more beautiful;...


 And they followed him, instead of Eru, and that caused their Fall.

From what I have read and understood, that being is supposed to be Morgoth. But how can that be? Men awoke at the coming of the Moon (or the Sun, I don't remember). And that did not occur until after Morgoth had escaped from Valinor. Now, what does it say about Morgoth's ability to change form after teaming up with Ungoliant?


> Now Melkor came to Avathar and sought her out; and he put on again the form that he had worn as the tyrant of Utumno: a dark lord, tall and terrible. In that form he remained ever after.



So how could Melkor have come among Men disguised in their own form, after he was unable to change his form again?

Perhaps it wasn't Melkor, but rather Sauron? Sauron could have seduced Men, and brought some to Angband where they could have been twisted into Orcs. But the problem still remains: Elves in Beleriand encountered Orcs before Men awake.


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## Randir (Jun 30, 2005)

Yes, that's true, but you must remember that the text "Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth" belongs to the last writings of JRR (probably 1959), when he wanted to revise many of the Sil. parts (together with the date of the awakening of the Men). So the text should be taken with the reference to last writings like "Myths T.", not published Silmarillion.

I suppose that eventually it would fit the whole image, if tolkien had the chance to finish his works.

Sauron - I doubt much that it could have been him; though while writing my essay I was thinking about that, but:

- Tolkien is actually mentioning that Melkor is responisble for the Fall of Men
- Finrod and Andreth are only considering Melkor
- the 'Giver of Gifts' orders to call himself a supreme Lord and Master of peoples fates, greater than Voice (Eru) - Sauron would not call himself greater than his master Melkor; he did not even called himself greater than valar when he was in captivity in Numenor - he always mentioned Melkor to be the greatest


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## Maerbenn (Jun 30, 2005)

Were you not satisfied with my explanation here, *Arvedui*?


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## Alatar (Jun 30, 2005)

Randir, if sauron was amoung men who had never heard of the Valar, save a voice, would he say, "I am notgreater than the voice, or the Valar, or a dog that manged to nearly kill me in my own castle, BUT my mate is."
And if we look, forward, what did sauron call himself in the second age...
I think that however it could be anyone of melkor deamons, it could be melkor possesing a elf? but if the timeline is move so much, then it was before the destoring of the trees so could have been him anyway.

EDIt; 500!


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## Randir (Jul 5, 2005)

Yes, I think that everything indicaes that it was Melkor, and the event was placed before the war of the Valar made upon Mekor for the sake of firstborn.

EDIT: Sorry for not-really-swift answers but I am kid of busy right now, and this weekend I am setting off to Crimea for 3 weeks (so I won't be around).


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## Arvedui (Jul 15, 2005)

Maerbenn said:


> Were you not satisfied with my explanation here, *Arvedui*?


Not completely, at least.  
I think that this is one of the most complicated inconsistensies (sp?) of Tolkien's legendarium, and I still haven't read one good explanation, or come up with one myself for that matter.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Jul 23, 2005)

impressive, good job, any more essays in the works?


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## Randir (Jul 27, 2005)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> impressive, good job, any more essays in the works?


 
To be frank, no, that is my first essay (but I do now some good ones). I am considering writing a new essay (it depends if I had some time. I think, that I would have to go abroad to work, soa as to have some money for my studies). I was thinking about writing something like "Economics in ME" or "Necromancy and Shadow World", or any other unknown (or little known) subject). Any suggestions?


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## Bergolilac (Aug 14, 2005)

Forgive me for being a Tolkien00b, I've only read the hobbit and seen the movies. But I've always been a fan of fantasy worlds and always seen orcs to be more of a science fiction race than part of a magical world.

When I investigate different races I think about their properties and culture rather than their history as they either represent something or they are a warped version of ourselves and it is these properties that strike interest. It is also fun to just imagine what it would be like to be or experience one of these creatures. What would happen if you captured and orc and tried to tame it? Undoubtedly it would try to trick you and escape, so you would have to capture a few orcs and breed them and indoctrinate the offspring. What would happen then? Could you turn them back into goodies, like Frodo tried with Gollum?

The sci fi "orc" has always struck interest, they represent harsh logic. A species which has evolved to industry and war much like animals evolve to their environment. Except this species is sentient and has evolved to everything that goes with being sentient, the technology and their purpose in ensuring a succesful warlike civilisation. Orc leaders are malicious megalomaniacs, but they are not corrupt as this is their purpose in life and other orcs want to be ruled by malicious megalomaniacs. Orc culture is purely functional and they see beauty as corruption and they are right, beauty is form of corruption, if you produce a space ship to look beautiful you will sacrifice it's functional properties. What's the point on spending buying a work of art when you can use it to make yourself more powerful? They do not need military discipline to deal with terrible situations, to them gaining pleasure and beauty is seeing themselves succeed in conquerring and gaining power, they do not gain power for the purpose of doing something they consider corrupt to gain pleasure. The perfect state of mind for gaining power.

The fantasy orc however doesn't seem to have a place in the fantasy world. To me they seem like gnomes or fairies, like something plucked out of nowhere with no real purpose. This is acceptable of course, a writer should be able to do this if he wants, stories don't have to be just about describing human conditions. Orcs seem to find their place in the middle earth story line purely as alter egos to the elves and perhaps so as morgoth created them by corrupting elves, as if Tolkien is serving their purpose up on a platter. Elves of course having the same philosophy as orcs, except they seem to have found their purpose (or created with that purpose ingrained) and have stopped relentlessly pursuing power like some sort of narcotic and settled down to writing poetry and such like. A pointless pursuit but perhaps not as pointless as relentlessly pursuing power with no end in sight. Though perhaps the only way to survive and gain pleasure at the same time would be to gain pleasure from gaining power. Though perhaps this erodes sentience and reduces a person's freedom to choose what to do. It's as if as a human I am torn between the choice of good vs evil!

Tolkien's storyline is litterred with contrast: elves and orcs; ents and trolls; the King of Rohan and the Steward of Gondor; Gandalf and Saruman; Aragorn and Boromir etc etc.. Each one good and each one evil.

Is this why tolkien created the orc? To define the pure extreme of evil or the pure extreme of a servant of evil?

Maybe tolkien had the definition of evil, which is to cause maximum sufferring to all sentient life. Though he probably he believed evil was the relentless and mad desire to gain power, to diminish sentience itself with obsessiveness, which is another contrast with elves, whom are always calm and more botherred with being and beauty.

What about the torturing of elves? Wouldn't that be pure evil, the supporting of sentient life, just to torture? Morgoth tortured elves and created sauron like he created orcs. Maybe Sauron is not pure evil, but a tool to relentlessly gain power, like the orcs. Sauron would probably live in a world of pain, which would be alleviated slightly whenever he gained a little power. Maybe this is why he destroyed morgoth, for revenge and to gain power. Maybe Sauron served a purpose as Gollum did!

But I digress..

What do you think?


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## Randir (Aug 14, 2005)

Lots of thoughts... I will answer only a few of them.


1) Sauron DID NOT destroyed Morgoth !!! He EVER was faithful to him, Sauron being his best servant.

2) Sauron is not purely evil, at least he started as a 'normal' Maiar, and then was *seduced* (so not against Sauron's will) by Morgoth. For that mater, Morgoth (orginally Melkor), wasn't evil at the beginings either.

3) *Elves and Orcs* could be look upon as an exgagerrated reresentation of contradictory *human* charachter traits. So they BOTH are alter egos for US.

4) I would not go as far to say that Orcs see beauty as corruption etc. I don't think that they practised any sort of conscious philosophy, besides Tolkien did not write about their such-developed views on that or similar matter. Yet, it is an interesting point of view.

5) I do not know WHY exactly Tolkien created Orcs but 1) they are present in many Nordic myths (as Goblins) 2) they were at first (in early writings) not created by mutilating Children Of Eru but in another way, so *maybe* (at first at least) their purpose was to be just a part of the tale, not alter egos for Men (but could be both, of course).


That's all no, it's a little bit late now to write more...


Regards 

Randir


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## Bergolilac (Aug 16, 2005)

"1) Sauron DID NOT destroyed Morgoth !!! He EVER was faithful to him, Sauron being his best servant.

2) Sauron is not purely evil, at least he started as a 'normal' Maiar, and then was *seduced* (so not against Sauron's will) by Morgoth. For that mater, Morgoth (orginally Melkor), wasn't evil at the beginings either."

So what are the Maiar then? Are they gods beneath gods? The losers to the supreme argument for monotheism, being that there can only be one true god as only one god can make all the other "gods". This would make sense as Eru seems to be a very distant typical monotheistic watchmaker works in strange ways god, whereas the Maiar are more like the mischievous polytheistic gods who are always playing around with mortals and representing fundamental aspects of the world. If so, then turning another 2nd rate god into a 3rd rate god, then controlling that god and turning it into your slave wouldn't be out of the question. This also begs the question about free will and humans. Are elves and orcs so extreme because they serve the will of a god and are humans so malleable as they have free will and must be persuaded and cannot be controlled directly? Does Eru, the one god, represent free will? Is this some extremely important theological argument Tolkien was trying to get across? Am I getting a little far fetched?


"3) *Elves and Orcs* could be look upon as an exgagerrated reresentation of contradictory *human* charachter traits. So they BOTH are alter egos for US."

Logically, extreme opposites must be alter egos of other. You can have a largely good human, who has done bad in the past and his later ego would be evil, but that alter ego wouldn't be completely evil as the little evil the original had would be inverted to a little good. It can't be. However you are right about how elves and orcs represent contradictory human character traits, however the extremes that elves and orcs have taken these traits/philosophical laws to is impossible for humans.


"4) I would not go as far to say that Orcs see beauty as corruption etc. I don't think that they practised any sort of conscious philosophy, besides Tolkien did not write about their such-developed views on that or similar matter. Yet, it is an interesting point of view."

What about the corruption of Denethor and such?


"5) I do not know WHY exactly Tolkien created Orcs but 1) they are present in many Nordic myths (as Goblins) 2) they were at first (in early writings) not created by mutilating Children Of Eru but in another way, so *maybe* (at first at least) their purpose was to be just a part of the tale, not alter egos for Men (but could be both, of course)."

I believe traditional Goblins are supposed to be mischievous and warlike, I'll have to look it up. I'm used to the modern, corrupted form of orcs and goblins.


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## Randir (Aug 16, 2005)

Eru is the one, supreme, omniscious and omnipotent God, like any in the monotheistic religions.

He created many, and among them Ainur. Ainur consist of Valar (great and potent, they were to actualy 'create' Arda, of course according to Eru's will, they can be looked upon as _Demiurgs_, and are somewhat comperable to a degree with gods from greek mythology. The strongest of them was Melkor/Morgoth) of Maiar (great spirits/souls able to incarnate, comparable maybe to angels). There were also spirits (possibly unable to incarnate themselves) that lived in the bodies of great Eagles, Ents, Werewolves.

Eru, of course, created also feär (souls/spirits) of Men and Elves. 

*Only Eru *could give true independence. Elves, Men and Orcs, all have free will, but their nature are different, and this nature is somewhat of a constraint to them. So, even Orcs are able to do good, but their nature makes it almost impossibly difficult. Men, I would say, have the least natural costraints, and consequently, enjoy the 'widest' independence. 
I hope you know what I mean 

Corruption is a well-developed theme in the Letters of Tolkien. If I was to resent it here, I would have to paste much of them - so I advice looking to them  (you should have no problems getting them).
Denethor is a sad story, reading LOTR, Return of the King will reveal more causes of his corruption/fall to despair. Both upper topics are to big to discuss it here, in an orkish tread.


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## Walter (Sep 29, 2005)

As Randir already tried to hint at, Tolkien did not invent Elves and Orcs from scratch. A similar concept is found in Germanic/Northern myths, there we encounter "light elves" and "dark elves"...

----

Randir, as Arvedui already mentioned, the TolkienWiki would be glad to host your essay, we already host a few very good essays and there already exists one about the Origin of Orcs (but in retrospect I consider it more a survey than an essay). If you're familiar with Wikis you could put it up all on your own and design it to your liking...


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## Arvedui (Dec 16, 2005)

I think that I will side with Treebeard on this matter:


> Maybe you have heard of Trolls? They are mighty strong. But Trolls are only counterfeits, made by the Enemy in the Great Darkness, in mockery of Ents, as Orcs were of Elves.


If anyone should know about the goings-on in Arda, Treebeard would be one of them.


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## Maerbenn (Dec 16, 2005)

I will not comment on Treebeard’s opinion on the origin of Trolls and Orks, but in his draft letter to Peter Hastings, September 1954 (_The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien_ no. 153), Tolkien wrote of Treebeard:


> Treebeard is a _character_ in my story, not me; and though he has a great memory and some earthy wisdom, he is not one of the Wise, and there is quite a lot he does not know or understand.


So I think that he is a prime example of a character whose knowledge we should not immediately trust.


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## Gothmog (Dec 16, 2005)

Élhendi said:


> I think that I will side with Treebeard on this matter:
> 
> If anyone should know about the goings-on in Arda, Treebeard would be one of them.


Well we do know that Orcs were made in mockery of Elves but he does not say from what Orcs were made. Unless of course he is also saying that Trolls (who "are only counterfeits, made by the Enemy in the Great Darkness, in mockery of Ents,) were also made *from* Ents.


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## Randir (Dec 17, 2005)

Treebeard may be wise and knowledgeable, but the only one whose knowledge I really fully trust is JRRT, the author 

And he stated from time to time, that even the Wise were in error.

And *Gothmog*, I would not try venture and state the origin of the Trolls in one sentence, because, like with the Orcs, there are many quotes by Tolkien on this matter, and surprise, surprise, they are similarly not consistent (suggesting at least that different breeds of trolls may have different, *separate* origins). But that is a matter for another quite substantial essay 

Regards

Randir


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## Gothmog (Dec 17, 2005)

Randir, you seem to have missed the point of my post which was not to discuss the origins of Trolls but to point out the problem of placing too much trust in the words of Treebeard. 

Both for Trolls and for Orcs, Treebeard only states the reason for their creation not the method.


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## Arvedui (Dec 19, 2005)

So the basic reasoning here is:

"Wood is to Ents, as stone is to Trolls. And so ? is to Elves, as ? is to Orcs?"


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## Gothmog (Dec 19, 2005)

Élhendi said:


> So the basic reasoning here is:
> 
> "Wood is to Ents, as stone is to Trolls. And so ? is to Elves, as ? is to Orcs?"


Yes that is the the reasoning. And untill we get a definitive answer for the "?" we are stuck after all we cannot know if the second "?" is a "?" or a "??"


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## Arvedui (Dec 20, 2005)

But, would it be wrong to suspect that in the case of Elves, the "?" could be the _Flame Imperishable?_


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## Gothmog (Dec 20, 2005)

Élhendi said:


> But, would it be wrong to suspect that in the case of Elves, the "?" could be the _Flame Imperishable?_


It would not be wrong to suspect this. It would however, be unwise to put it forward as the difinitive answer without more evidence.


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