# Is turin turambar stronger and superior to fingolfin in the battle of dagor dagorath?



## Turin_Turambar (Dec 16, 2021)

you all know that turin killed melkor in dagor dagorath. a forum member said that turin in dagor dagorath is much stronger and superior than turin in first age. do you think so? and is turin turambar stronger and superior to fingolfin in the battle of dagor dagorath? please don't say dagor dagorath is not canon or vote no if you think it is not canon. we will consider dagor dagorath as canon on this matter.


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## m4r35n357 (Dec 16, 2021)

Oh boy, this again!

You have a Vala up against a Vala, a Maia, and a Human; a pretty lopsided line-up. I can't escape the idea that Tulkas and Fionwe(!) probably held Morgoth down to let Turin symbolically finish him off, execution style! A bit unfair, since Morgoth was only doing his job, but who says life should be fair, certainly not Eru 

Still Fingolfin for me . . .


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## Turin_Turambar (Dec 16, 2021)

m4r35n357 said:


> Oh boy, this again!
> 
> You have a Vala up against a Vala, a Maia, and a Human; a pretty lopsided line-up. I can't escape the idea that Tulkas and Fionwe(!) probably held Morgoth down to let Turin symbolically finish him off, execution style! A bit unfair, since Morgoth was only doing his job, but who says life should be fair, certainly not Eru
> 
> Still Fingolfin for me . . .


What you say is not true. There is no source anywhere remotely related to what you said. If you've read the war, you already know. Tulkas wrestles with Melkor first. But with the help of Melkor Grond, he defeats Tulkas. Then Turin alone engages in a 1-on-1 fight against Melkor and stabs the gurthang into Melkor's heart and kills him. that's the whole point. Tulkas and eönwe doesn't help Turin. It's not a high school fight.


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## m4r35n357 (Dec 16, 2021)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> What you say is not true. There is no source anywhere remotely related to what you said.


Here is the QS text (HoME 5). There are one or two (really really minor) tweaks in QS1 (HoME 11), but _no other source_ that I am aware of.



> Thus spake Mandos in prophecy, when the Gods sat in judgement in Valinor, and the rumour of his words was whispered among all the Elves of the West. When the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth, seeing that the guard sleepeth, shall come back through the Door of Night out of the Timeless Void; and he shall destroy the Sun and Moon. But Earendel shall descend upon him as a white and searing flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the Last Battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day _Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth_, and on his right hand shall be Fionwe, and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, coming from the halls of Mandos; and the _black sword_ of Turin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Hurin and all Men be avenged.



So, where are you getting _your_ "extra" (regarding Grond, the defeat of Tulkas(!), Gurthang) information from?


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## Turin_Turambar (Dec 16, 2021)

m4r35n357 said:


> Here is the QS text (HoME 5). There are one or two (really really minor) tweaks in QS1 (HoME 11), but _no other source_ that I am aware of.
> 
> 
> 
> So, where are you getting _your_ "extra" (regarding Grond, the defeat of Tulkas, Gurthang) information from?


In the article you gave, it says that it was Turin who killed Melkor. It does not say Tulkas and Eönwe helped Turin. It is written on the Tolkiengateway site that Tulkas will wrestle with Melkor. Melkor first defeats Tulkas, but then he is killed by Turin. Turin fights 1v1 with Melkor, who defeats Tulkas.


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## m4r35n357 (Dec 16, 2021)

Well I looked on that (not written by JRRT) site on the page for Mandos, and didn't find the text you refer to. I then typed "prophesy" into the search bar, and did not find it.

Perhaps the site has been edited since you last read it? In any case, I suggest you post *working links* to your source so we can put this one to bed!


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## Turin_Turambar (Dec 16, 2021)

m4r35n357 said:


> Well I looked on that (not written by JRRT) site on the page for Mandos, and didn't find the text you refer to. I then typed "prophesy" into the search bar, and did not find it.
> 
> Perhaps the site has been edited since you last read it? In any case, I suggest you post *working links* to your source so we can put this one to bed!


this is actually the opinion of most people, including me, rather than the source. If we were to reason, it says that tulkas will fight melkor but will be killed by turin. If Turin is killing Melkor, he did it not with the help of Tulkas, but after the defeated Tulkas. Most people on the internet are of this opinion.


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## Elthir (Dec 16, 2021)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> a forum member said that turin in dagor dagorath is much stronger and superior than turin in first age.



If you are referring to me here, rather, I said (or at least meant) that we don't know if he was or he wasn't, but it's possible, as he would have been brought back from the dead (and I would be talking about spiritual potency, which might translate to physical strength) -- and in the larger context, I was speaking with reference to a Mannish myth about a dagor dagorath -- and *if* this was still in play in 
the legendarium of Middle-earth, that is.

🐾



m4r35n357 said:


> So, where are you getting _your_ "extra" (regarding Grond, the defeat of Tulkas(!), Gurthang) information from?



I second this request.

Tolkien written text please


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## Turin_Turambar (Dec 16, 2021)

m4r35n357 said:


> Here is the QS text (HoME 5). There are one or two (really really minor) tweaks in QS1 (HoME 11), but _no other source_ that I am aware of.
> 
> 
> 
> So, where are you getting _your_ "extra" (regarding Grond, the defeat of Tulkas(!), Gurthang) information from?


now I found an article under the title of melkor on the tolkiengateway site;
Nevertheless, according to the Second Prophecy of Mandos, Morgoth will come back and attack Arda. He will fight in the Last Battle against the Valar and their allies, but will ultimately be slain by Túrin Turambar, the Man he cursed. By finally defeating Morgoth, Túrin will avenge not only himself, but all members of the race of Men.








Morgoth


"And he descended upon Arda in power and majesty greater than any other of the Valar, as a mountain that wades in the sea and has its head above the clouds and is...




tolkiengateway.net




As you can see, Turin does not kill Morgoth with anyone's help. In this article it is written that Turin defeated Morgoth and avenged humanity.


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## Elthir (Dec 17, 2021)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> As you can see, Turin does not kill Morgoth with anyone's help.



When did Tulkas strive with Morgoth here? Surely not *after* Túrin dealt Morgoth his death.

What is Eonwe doing during all this? At one point in the 1950s, Tolkien wrote *"and Beren Camlost"* in the margin of the manuscript? What was he going to do here, if anything?

*Maybe* Tolkien didn't want Túrin to (be said to) come back from the dead twice (!), and so the Prophecy of Andreth meant that Túrin was out of the Mannish Myth.

*Maybe* Tolkien ultimately wanted to leave hints of Last Battles and Renewals (like Galadriel's statement in _The Lord of the Rings_, for example) . . .

. . . hints, plus the vision of Finrod, who beheld a vision of Arda Remade. And perhaps JRRT might
even publish (Andreth describing the Old Hope): *"They say that the One will himself enter Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end.*" _Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth_

[*see also Tolkien's statement in note 11 to the Commentary on the Athrabeth: *"But this is not, of course, the same as the re-entry of Eru to defeat Melkor."*]

*Jesus Nazarenus anyone?*

Of course nothing dispermits (!) a Last Battle and Renewal Myth along with the suggested Incarnation of Eru . . . but in any case, it's all very clear what Tolkien was going to ultimately publish here [*by which I mean it isn't, in my opinion*].


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