# Was it really impossible to defeat Morgoth?



## Ithrynluin

Dagor Aglareb, the third great battle of the Wars of Beleriand, was a huge victory for the Noldor, as they wiped out every single ork in Morgoth's army. After that, the so called "Siege of Angband" ensued, which lasted for almost 400 years.

Now this made me wonder, why did the elves not make an effort to push all the way to Angband? Could they have done it? 

JRRT does not seem to think so in _The Silmarillion_:



> _Of the Return of the Noldor_
> Yet the Noldor could not capture Angband, nor could they regain the Silmarils; and war never wholly ceased in all that time of the Siege, for Morgoth devised new evils, and ever and anon he would make trial of his enemies. Nor could the stronghold of Morgoth be ever wholly encircled: for the Iron Mountains, from whose great curving wall the towers of Thangorodrim were thrust forward, defended it upon either side, and were impassable to the Noldor, because of their snow and ice. Thus in his rear and to the north Morgoth had no foes, and by that way his spies at times went out, and came by devious routes into Beleriand.



He does not really give specific reasons why they could not capture it, however. 

Anyway, why would they need or want to encircle his stronghold? Would it not be enough to simply besiege the front gates of Angband and start from there? 

Also, I am not speaking merely of the Noldor, but of a unity between them, the Sindar and the Dwarves (Men were not part of the equation yet), combining their strength to achieve this. Let's just theorize that they could put aside their differences and work together. Why could it not be achieved then?

A hundred years after the Dagor Aglareb, Morgoth wanted to catch Fingolfin at unawares, so he launched a sneak attack that went around the mountains and attempted to enter Hithlum through the Firth of Drengist. However, their intentions were discovered and they were destroyed. This ork host was not large enough, which is why this battle was not counted among the great ones. Which makes me think - if this was the best Morgoth could muster in a hundred years, wouldn't this have clued the good peoples that it was time to assault him, to at least try? Or how about this, another hundred years later:



> Again after a hundred years Glaurung, the first of the Urulóki, the fire-drakes of the North, issued from Angband's gates by night. He was yet young and scarce half-grown, for long and slow is the life of the dragons, but the Elves fled before him to Ered Wethrin and Dorthonion in dismay; and he defiled the fields of Ard-galen. Then Fingon prince of Hithlum rode against him with archers on horseback, and hemmed him round with a ring of swift riders; and Glaurung could not endure their darts, being not yet come to his full armoury, and he fled back to Angband, and came not forth again for many years. Fingon won great praise, and the Noldor rejoiced; for few foresaw the full meaning and threat of this new thing. But Morgoth was ill-pleased that Glaurung had disclosed himself over-soon; and after his defeat there was the Long Peace of wellnigh two hundred years.



Obviously, Morgoth spent all this time plotting how to defeat the elves, for the orks were not nearly a strong enough weapon to pit against them. The good peoples had the advantage of Glaurung, the first of one of the biggest threats to come, revealing himself prematurely; they defeated this first dragon, but still they did not take any kind of hint from this, but instead waited for another two hundred years, giving Morgoth ample time to perfect this new devilry and come up with only Eru knows what else. Huh.

Did the Noldor & co. simply fail to read all these clues and just take action? 

Or were they certain no power short of the Valar could attempt to storm Angband? If this was the case, how where they certain their attempts would fail if they had never tried it?


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## YayGollum

So they figured that it was a good time to merely defend and restock their own armies? Sure, the way you write it, it looks like it would have been a good time to rudely burst through the front door. But oh well. Too many Balrogs and werewolves to worry about?


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## Snaga

Of course, even if you got past the balrogs and the werewolves, you would still have Morgoth himself to deal with. Fingolfin hurt him a little, much later on. But by then, of course, he must have depleted his strength quite a bit in building up his forces. So, at near full strength, I thinking he might have packed quite a punch!


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## Finrod Felagund

You make a good point although in the chapter _Of the ruin of Beleriand_ it is said that Fingolfin _did _ponder upon an assault on Angband but was not listened to properly because the Noldor were content with things as they were and were sure their realms would last and were slow to begin an assault in which many would surely perish whether they won or lost. Although Angrod and Aegnor agreed with him few of the other cheiftans of the Noldor did, especially not Feanor's sons. Also the chance of the Sindar helping was very small as they trusted in the girdle of Melian and didn't like the Noldor much. And remember the Noldor couldn't actually kill Morgoth.


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## Ithrynluin

YayGollum and Snaga,

I agree that the many creatures of Morgoth, the Balrogs most of all, would prove to be a formidable challenge for the Noldor; and you're probably right that Morgoth was physically stronger at that point; still, the Noldor were relatively "freshly" come out of Valinor, they were strong and valiant and there were many of them, and I think they could have been a match for all of those eventually, even if they suffered heavy losses in the process.

But perhaps WHAT, as opposed to WHO, they would be sieging was equally or even more important in this scenario, seeing how Angband consisted of a multitude of tunnels and underground halls, some probably very deep underground, so there might have been a huge possibility of getting lost, sidetracked or divided, giving Morgoth a bigger chance of utilizing the divide and conquer tactic. Also, assaulting an enormous collection of tunnels (as opposed to an above ground fortress such as, say, Minas Tirith) may not be as easy and straightforward as one might like to think, because the main centre of enemy power, as it were, was rather ambiguous, and Morgoth could launch sorties from virtually any direction -- he was on his home turf after all.

Finrod,

Thanks for reminding me about that quote. Here it is in full:



> _Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin_
> Now Fingolfin, King of the North, and High King of the Noldor, seeing that his people were become numerous and strong, and that the Men allied to them were many and valiant, pondered once more an assault upon Angband; for he knew that they lived in danger while the circle of the siege was incomplete, and Morgoth was free to labour in his deep mines, devising what evils none could foretell ere he should reveal them. *This counsel was wise according to the measure of his knowledge; for the Noldor did not yet comprehend the fullness of the power of Morgoth, nor understand that their unaided war upon him was without final hope, whether they hasted or delayed.* But because the land was fair and their kingdoms wide, most of the Noldor were content with things as they were, trusting them to last, and slow to begin an assault in which many must surely perish were it in victory or in defeat Therefore they were little disposed to hearken to Fingolfin, and the sons of Fëanor at that time least of all. Among the chieftains of the Noldor Angrod and Aegnor alone were of like mind with the King; for they dwelt in regions whence Thangorodrim could be descried, and the threat of Morgoth was present to their thought. Thus the designs of Fingolfin came to naught, and the land had peace yet for a while.



The bolded part especially is very gloomy and seems to dispose of any theories whether the Noldor could ever defeat Morgoth on their own. However, this quote refers to

a) a much later point in time than the one in my initial post, and Morgoth had ample time to prepare and build up his forces during this period of peace when his foes were seemingly apathetic.

b) only the Noldor, and I pondered a hypothetical unison of not only all of the Noldor, but the added power of the Sindar and the dwarves as well. Though this may seem like nitpicking, and the author may have actually meant that no force short of the armies of the Valar could successfully battle Morgoth, the wording is loose enough to allow this theory to be squeezed through.


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## YayGollum

Well, did anyone have any idea of how big and scary that Angband place was, especially at the time you're writing about? Mostly writing ---> the lack of knowledge along the lines of Mel's hideout most probably wouldn't have scared those crazy elves away from attempting to assault it. They were crazy. They'd go for it. Reconnaissance? Mel was the guy who invented that, which made it evil, to them. Sure, if they knew more about his place, they might have been a bit more hesitant. 

Anyways, not apathetic, merely content and watchful. They didn't have enough experience with how quickly Mel could build his resources back up, or with how much extra he was holding back (a tragic habit implanted by Eru, merely to make the movie longer).


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## Ithrynluin

Yes, I think the simplest and best explanation as to why most of the Noldor were happy to do nothing was lack of experience and lack of knowledge about their enemy. Perhaps this also mirrors the elves' unwillingness to accept change and desire to slow time down.

But you haven't answered my main question. How successful, or not, could the Noldor/Sindar/dwarf combo have been against Morgoth had they launched an attack at the time just after the third battle? Could they have taken Morgoth? If not, how far do you think they could have made it?


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## YayGollum

Ah. Whoops. I must have missed those questions in others. 

Answer to the first ---> Not entirely. Mel would see such things coming and would secret all kinds of superly cool stuff down in his less obvious tunnels. 

To the second ---> Nope. Craziness. He's too cool. The only reason the Valar types got him in the end was because he wanted to go. *crosses arms and thrusts nose into the air, defiantly* Yep. He's out in the Void, recruiting. Lots of Ainur out there. 

To the third ---> Um, three miles underground, but only three feet from the front door, due to stairs? Those Balrogs were obviously very easy to kill, so lots of them would have been killed. They wouldn't have gotten close to Mel. Although you wrote that most Orcs were gone, he'd still have his reserves for breeding, as well as plenty of nassty elfs who he was messing with. Vampires and werewolves, Ainur of all persuasions. Trolls yet? I don't know. The elves would have lots to brag about, certainly. Lots of feasts on great victories, lots of buddies between kingdoms made, a few pointing out that the never got Mel, and that they should saunter back underground, eventually, but lots more merely shrugging and saying things like, "Ah, don't worry about it. What's he got now? Bitterness? Oh, we shake in our elfy boots at that? Ha! Let him come! Have a pastry!"


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## Bucky

I think you folks miss a point that can be seen in our own human history:

'Good' does not historically attack 'evil', it's the other way around.
Evil forces build up while 'good' apethetically does little to prepare for the Day of Evil until it falls on them like a theif in the night.
Then, woe to them.....

Also, the Elves had the foreknoledge of hearing the Doom of The Noldor, although it does say that they wouldn't understand it until those things came to pass.
However, the question asked here wasn't 'Could the Elves THINK they could win?', it was 'COULD THE ELVES WIN?", and The Doom of The Noldor proves beyond a doubt that they could not win a war with Morgoth.

As far as the question of whether there were trolls during The Seige of Angband, the first mention of trolls is in the Fifth Battle:

'And it is sung that the axe (of Hurin) smoked in the black blood of the troll-guard of Gothmog until it withered.....'

No mention is given here of how the trolls could be outside & not be turned into stone - the Olog-Hai were not bred by Sauron yet. 
But in the words of Christopher Tolkien, "A complete consistency is not to be looked for" in The Simarillion. 

The conclusion on Trolls origion is that they were, as Treebeard said, "Made in mockery of Ents, as Orcs were of Elves", & probably the same slow, painful way by Morgoth.
As for the time, no guess can be made other than the statement of Morgoth perceiving that Orcs alone were no match for The Eldar indicates that Trolls were not available until some time around The Fifth Battle.


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## nodnarb

i dont think it was possible to defeat him as in killing him..i do believe tho that they could of at least drove him out of angband..but he would of likely just build a new fortress somewhere else to make war from


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## Illuin

Well, there was Melian, Luthien, and so many mighty Elves, Men, and Dwarfs; that I believe would have undeniably sent Morgoth running away with his tail between his legs. The problem was the “_civil war_” within. Just look at the country I reside in; the USA. The leadership (as sad as it is) is not the primary reason for the “state of the union”; as it were. It’s the fighting within that is the true cause of the mess. How silmaril....um...I mean similar are Feanor and Bush? 

This indeed is a statement that should probably be posted in that project evil place. However, I don’t wish to take a petty light-hearted analogy like this that far. I’ve viewed that forum…..and yikes…it certainly isn’t for me. I would much rather kick around fantasy and fun. Nonetheless, Morgoth would have probably lost if it were not for the internal bickering .


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## Tar-Surion

After the strategic situation became stable after the rising of the sun Morgoth's defeat would have been inevitable if he hadn't been possessed of the powers of a god. 

He controlled nothing except Angband while the Elves controlled a whole rich and fertile land bursting with life, needing only a little care and tending to make it arable. Elvish populations should have burgeoned rapidly into the ten of millions while Morgoth's orcs should have starved to death in their icy, barren tunnels.

Instead the opposite happened. The Elves, beset by a reluctance to reproduce that seems to have afflicted most of the Free Peoples of Middle Earth, failed to make use of their bounty to raise their numbers so high as to put themselves beyond challenge. 

Morgoth on the other hand, possessed of no food supply or agriculture whatever, somehow created huge armies or orcs, balrogs, trolls and dragons. How, one wants to know? Clearly by use of his supernatural powers, and it took him four-hundred years to do it. Since there is no such thing as a free lunch it must have drained this power, leaving him weakened and vulnerable. 

Once the Siege of Angband was broken and the Orcs were free to forage in the Elven and Human lands (that is eat the inhabitants thereof) this drain on Morgoth would have lessened, as they would have become self-supporting and been able to multiply rapidly. This was an one-time bounty and once these lands were ravaged and depopulated Morgoth's decline would have continued. 

There is some evidence that towards the end he could no longer properly control or supply his bloated armies. His failure to finish off the last Elf settlements after the fall of Gondolin, might be interpreted as such; the rather poor showing of the Orcs in the Great Battle might be also. 

This means that the Elves could win by keeping him penned up in Angband, or at least out of the Elf-Kingdoms, until his batteries ran out; which they could easily done if they had increased their population by an order of magnitude or so, not too hard for a species with a negligible death-rate and no disease mortality at all. 

Had the Elves quantity to match their quality, Morgoth would have ended his days as a lonely, impotent cave-troll.


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## Illuin

_



impotent cave-troll.

Click to expand...

_ 
HaHa. 

This is true. I also think the lonely impotent cave-troll fate would have been possible even with the same numbers, but without the internal fighting and external pride.


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## YayGollum

*sniff* Poor Mel. I sense a lack of respect for the guy. 

Firstly, did Tolkien write that there was little for the Orcs to eat? I don't remember much on that subject. Sure, I also don't remember much being written about Mel using his evil plant and animal corrupting powers (since he had powers of every type) to invent stuff hardy and disgusting enough for his people to eat. Also, while adapting the elves to suit his needs, he could have rehauled their digestive systems so that they'd be more likely to survive with whatever they had. All kinds of things are possible. And I don't remember anything about a large boost in the Orcish population. Weren't they always multiplying rapidly? Argh. Dwarvish and Orcish agriculture craziness! 

And secondly, no, I don't think that Mel would have been so easily defeated if the good guys had larger litters. More people means more for Mel to mess with. Tolkien wrote of a few times when shapeshifters swayed opinions. I wouldn't be surprised if there were plenty of times when they tried and failed, so it wasn't written about. Also, with the good guy habit of leaving things alone until they come to kill them, they would have spread out and explored the rest of Middle Earth earlier.


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## Tar-Surion

YayGollum said:


> *sniff* Poor Mel. I sense a lack of respect for the guy.


 Yep, not a fan.



> And I don't remember anything about a large boost in the Orcish population. Weren't they always multiplying rapidly?


 Silmarillion p 251: "And there was mustered the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, which had become great beyond count, and Angfaulith could not contain it." Most organisms can breed indefinitely as long as they have food and living-space, what limits them is habitat, competitors and food-supply. Morgoth would have had to keep the lid on Orcish numbers during the Siege of Angband as there were only so many he could sustain, even if he had them in some kind of suspended animation. Once they were out in the Elf-Kingdoms they could breed wildly until the food ran out, which they did, and it did.



> And secondly, no, I don't think that Mel would have been so easily defeated if the good guys had larger litters. More people means more for Mel to mess with.


 True, but also more people to mess with Morgoth. Imagine the Nirnath Arnodiad with three times the number of Elves. It would still be unnumbered tears but they would have been mostly Orcish.


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## YayGollum

Not a fan of Mel? The greatest? What, just because he tried to liven things up a little? You are more of a Manwe fan, then? The spirit of the teacher's pet? 

Ah, but what was Anfauglith (I had to check the spelling. Yours looked weird) to Angband? He had all kinds of tunnels down there. 

Also, if there had been more good guys, Mel would have dealt with it. He keeping track. If only those Valar types had kept to their backwoods!


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## Tar-Surion

> Not a fan of Mel? The greatest? What, just because he tried to liven things up a little?


Actually he wanted to kill everyone, preferably after prolonged torture. If you think genocide, murder, torture and oppression "liven things up" I'm glad I don't live next door to you. 



> You are more of a Manwe fan, then? The spirit of the teacher's pet?



Well actually I am a teacher and I encourage teacher's pets. They make my life easier and it's good for them to develop positive relationships with benign authority figures. If you ever rise to a position of authority you'll know exactly what I mean.



> If only those Valar types had kept to their backwoods!


They would have been entirely remiss in their duty if they permitted this psychopathic god to dominate and torture the Children of Illuvatar forever.

I just wish they had found away to remove Morgoth without destroying the whole of Belariand: sounds like overkill to me.


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## YayGollum

Hm! So you don't think that genocide, murder, torture, and oppression liven things up? Those are totally enlivening activities. Livening things up has nothing to do with making people happy. Also, they make for better stories. You know. Dramatic tension, eh? Quite nice. Mel was an entertaining character to read about. As a matter of course, I wouldn't want to live next to someone who enjoyed such activities in real life.  Craziness.

Towards teacher's pets, should I assume that the answer to my question was an affirmative? Either way, sure, I understand that teacher's pets have their good points as well as bad. I was merely writing that Mel is more interesting than Manwe. I can see more of a reason to enjoy reading about Mel than Manwe. When it comes to real life, though, I'd still prefer a Mel-like student to a Manwe-esque one. Manwe had no spark of intelligence. He was the Mouth of Eru. He was incapable of understanding evil, a tragic handicap. Mel, on the other paw, challenged everything he saw. He was a big fan of independent studies. The spirit of creativity, no rules barred him from his goals. To teach those two? To direct their energies? Manwe can parrot quite nicely. He'll never disagree and can even set a shining example of how to play by the book. Mel would be more challenging, which is part of the fun. You'll both learn something. 

By the way, you don't teach your students to take characters in a book so seriously, do you? Now, mayhaps if Mel wasn't so obviously dangerous, warnings and derision would make sense. But, no. Tolkien made his motivations pretty transparent. If only anyone had taken the time to steer him towards some more productive paths.


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## Illuin

> _"If only anyone had taken the time to steer him towards some more productive paths. "_


 
_




_



Don’t worry TS; Yay’s wit must be observed and analyzed for some time; but he’s (in reality) on your side. The point is that Tolkien wouldn’t have gotten very far with Manwe being the star of the show







PS - I’m entirely bored with the non-specific emoticons we have at our disposal, so I’m going elsewhere when I wish to express something more accurately


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## Persephone

I think the better question here was, why did Eru allow Morgoth to continue with his existence? Is he indifferent to his evil? Did he care at all? He could have just removed him from existence. 







P.s. if this has been presented before, sorry. Just wanted to join in on the discussion. And Illuin, thanks for the additional emoticons site


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## Illuin

Tolkien was a spiritual dude; and if we are to understand the authors lore, we must understand the author. My theory is in my private profile (the discussion with Yay). I don’t really wish to bring up the idea here, but if you go to the discussion I’ve had with Yay in that private thingy, that will give you my answer to your question (it is the 18th post from the most recent; the one dated 07-26-2008 09:56 PM). That is my personal theory on Tolkien's "big picture" concerning the evil rebellion of Morgoth.


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## Persephone

Illuin said:


> Tolkien was a spiritual dude; and if we are to understand the authors lore, we must understand the author. My theory is in my private profile (the discussion with Yay). I don’t really wish to bring up the idea here, but if you go to the discussion I’ve had with Yay in that private thingy, that will give you my answer to your question (it is the 18th post from the most recent; the one dated 07-26-2008 09:56 PM). That is my personal theory on Tolkien's "big picture" concerning the evil rebellion of Morgoth.



Sorry, but I can't see that post. But I will see if he has it somewhere else. 

I know that Tolkien was actually one of the earlier translators of the Bible into English (from Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek. Or was it Latin?) Anyway, I think he might have _taken _some of his ideas from the Bible itself, and if he did, I would really like to know how he presented and translated it into the ME situation. That would clear out many questions concerning Morgoth and the whether or not he was too much for anyone to handle.


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## Tar-Surion

We're in deep water here: up against the Problem of Evil itself; the most serious philosophical objection to Monotheistic Religion. Why does a benevolent God permit evil and suffering? 

There are a number of answers many of them most unappealing: either God doesn't exist, doesn't care, or is a sadist; that is, there is not God, only Satan, or Melkor, if you wish.

Most religions take another way out and say that God permits free-will and that people can chose to be either Good or Evil, and that thus whatever trouble we get into is largely our own fault.

Although this is more attractive than other than the previous options I have always had problems with it. To what extent can someone born into an evil society be said to have choice, or even be aware that they can chose?

And just as important, while in theory you may be able to chose Good over Evil, how can you chose not to be a victim of Evil? 

In some cases there is no choice. How does a malnourished seven year old peasant girl in the Middle Ages chose not to die of dysentery or tuberculosis? How does a Polish Jew chose not die in Hitler's gas-chambers, or an Elvish warrior not to end up on the Hill of Slain? 

So it's a hard one and people have been discussing it for centuries. I think I'll leave it for the theologians and philosophers; and the best of British luck to all of them. 

Back to Beleriand: it is my feeling that an Elvish victory in the Fifth Battle would have crippled Morgoth. He had put forth most of his remaining power into his armies and it they had been destroyed I doubt he could have replaced them; or at least it would have taken him hundreds of years.

As it was it was a near-run thing despite everything that went wrong. The Elvish plan was a good one, but was very poorly executed. Things could well have gone differently. 

More than anything else numbers matter in war. The Elves should have raised their numbers close to the carrying capacity of their lands and made sure they had forces capable of crushing Morgoth's hordes whenever they emerged. 

Even if it was not comfortable for them to have lots of children they should have made the effort to ensure their own survival. The Elves were fine soldiers, courageous, well-motived and well-armed. If only their had been more of them they could have held onto their lands and kept Morgoth penned up until eventually the Valar came to remove him.


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## Illuin

Oh boy...we have indeed opened a can of worms . The question is; do I have the energy to continue . Not sure if my gray matter is up for this kind of a workout. It's been awhile .


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## Prince of Cats

I thought I read Eru or Manwe saying that evil was allowed to exist because it would, once overcome, make things better? If I did it's in the Silmarillion. You guys/gals have read it plenty more than I have and I'm surprised someone hasn't come forward with a quote (which makes me wonder if I thought wrong  )


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## Illuin

> by Prince of Cats
> I thought I read Eru or Manwe saying that evil was allowed to exist because it would, once overcome, make things better? If I did it's in the Silmarillion. You guys/gals have read it plenty more than I have and I'm surprised someone hasn't come forward with a quote (which makes me wonder if I thought wrong


 


Well; there are quotes like these in The Silmarillion:

_'And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'_


_'But Ilúvatar knew that Men, being set amid the turmoils of the powers of the world, would stray often, and would not use their gifts in harmony; and he said: ''These too in their time shall find that all that they do redounds at the end only to the glory of my work.'_

Maybe it’s simply the idea that through evil, good and beauty become more appreciated and magnificent.


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## Persephone

Illuin said:


> Well; there are quotes like these in The Silmarillion:
> 
> _'And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'_
> 
> 
> _'But Ilúvatar knew that Men, being set amid the turmoils of the powers of the world, would stray often, and would not use their gifts in harmony; and he said: ''These too in their time shall find that all that they do redounds at the end only to the glory of my work.'_
> 
> Maybe it’s simply the idea that through evil, good and beauty become more appreciated and magnificent.



One does not need to get burned to know that fire is hot. So if this truly was the reason why Eru had allowed evil to exist, he made a huge mistake that cost the lives of many good beings. Melkor would have won my vote and my loyalty.


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## Illuin

> _by Narya_
> _One does not need to get burned to know that fire is hot. So if this truly was the reason why Eru had allowed evil to exist, he made a huge mistake that cost the lives of many good beings._


 

Well…the “physical” lives. The true nature lives on after physical death….and they (through experience in the flesh) have learned much.


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## Persephone

Illuin said:


> Well…the “physical” lives. The true nature lives on after physical death….and they (through experience in the flesh) have learned much.



No doubt. After all the killing, all the scheming, all the suffering that it brought, one would _hope _that someone got something out of it all.


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## Illuin

Well, I’m not sure someone like Feanor would (or could) ever be redeemed within the Halls of Mandos. He’s a maniac. Pride far beyond redemption.


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## YayGollum

*devil's advocate sense tingles* Hm? Now, where did you come up with that? A parallel universe with alternate writings by Tolkien? Sure, Feanor was proud, but I see nothing wrong with that. How did his pride make him a maniac? I am attempting to remember the actions he took that people take offense over. Anything objectionable that occurred during that whole bit where he's rallying troops and hunting poor Mel down had more to do with grief and righteous fury than pride. Anything before that was probably just Feanor making other elves jealous by being the best and deriving no shame from it.  

But I am guessing that you attach that scene with the Doom Of Mandos to his pride. Anything that he came up with there was also uttered while in the throes of grief and righteous fury, and he never even caused any trouble with that little promise that some decided to repeat. Other people caused problems, and they were the ones who should be held responsible for any inconveniences. I don't even remember him asking anyone else to make any promises. He didn't even give any of his kids an expectant glare. 

Irredeemable? Poor Feanor. But I would agree. He doesn't need redemption, since he was only ever awesome. 

Oh, and, ah, yes, it would be possible to defeat poor Mel. Of course. It happened eventually, anyways. But earlier and without Ainuric support? Sure. If only any of the good guys knew how to plan. Were there any decent strategists, or was Mel the only one who could surprise anyone?


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## Illuin

> _But I am guessing that you attach that scene with the Doom Of Mandos to his pride._


 

No, the burning of the ships is my issue. I understand the spontaneous temper-tantrum at Alqualonde; but leaving Fingolfin and friends out to dry? The burning at Losgar? No..... profanity is prohibited in this forum; so I will say no more other than; "Would you want a brother; or a friend like that?"


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## YayGollum

Hm. A brother similar to Feanor? Not a half-brother, since he wasn't a fan of those. I bet that he would be quite useful. But then, as a brother or a friend, his energies would be too dangerous to direct. Mel attempted and would have had at least Middle Earth to himself quite easily if he hadn't. Anyways, no, relatives are no good. They expect special treatment just because you can't help being related. And Feanor has no friends. Feanor is too self-centered for friends. Maybe a craftsman in a field that Feanor hasn't chosen to dominate yet. That would be close.

But towards that other thing, Ack! By what means did you arrive at the conclusion that Feanor was horrible for burning some ships? The train of missed motivations? Feanor knew that those other elves didn't entirely agree with him. He had his most loyal troops with him already. Finarfin and his ilk had already turned back. He figured that Valinor wasn't too horrible of a place to leave the others. He even gave them an extravagant farewell. It was silly to burn the ships, even if he had just invented the s'more. They could have easily been left someplace and used for something else later. But no. The other guys were waiting. He politely informed them, "No, don't worry about us. You can just go back home. I wouldn't force you into any decisions that you weren't entirely sure about."


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## Illuin

> by YayGollum
> _“You can just go back home. I wouldn't force you into any decisions that you weren't entirely sure about."_


 
Well; tact has its merits; and there is a way to say and do things. If he said it like you did above; that would be a different story. His “delivery” as it were, was in bad taste. A few grumblings aside; many, before they were betrayed, still followed him; no?


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## YayGollum

Sure, but he knew that there were grumblings. He wasn't a large fan of dissent when up against Mel, who really needed taking down. To tie into the topic of the thread, if Feanor had taken any time to train his troops, he most probably would have won. He was the best at anything he set his mind to. Unfortunately, they were up against bad guys who knew a thing or two beyond fighting a few surprised sailors. And he would have done a much better job of keeping everyone rallied. 

Anyways, you can understand why Feanor delivered his message that way. He was the greatest orator of all time, and they still didn't trust him unequivocally, for some reason. He wasn't about to waste his time on them again. And why call the guy a traitor? To him, they were the traitors. He was helping them out. They didn't agree with him, so they must not care as much about justice. Valinor is boring but safe. Not that horrible of a fate. They were the crazy ones, deciding to walk over.


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## Turgon

For somebody who is supposed to be such a genius Feanor comes across as nothing more than an idiot: in both word and deed. I wouldn't fancy his chances against Morgoth at all, the guy simply wasn't smart enough for an opponent as cunning as Melkor. I'm guessing most of the information we had on his supposed genius came from the Noldolante - the biased views of one of his sons. 

The only time I even thought the Elves came close to defeating Morgoth, when I first read the Silmarillion, was with the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. Yet even without the treachery in Maedhros's army, even if the Noldor won the field, how would they have finished him off? Could they have finished him off? Save sticking a Silmaril down his throat and standing back to watch the fun - I can't really see how?


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## Illuin

> by YayGollum
> _Anyways, you can understand why Feanor delivered his message that way. He was the greatest orator of all time, and they still didn't trust him unequivocally, for some reason._


 


Well, not ALL left behind were grumblers. If there were more boats on the initial trip; I'm sure there were plenty more non-grumblers that were raring to go. Also, I never underestimated any of his talents; but his wisdom was skewed horribly when his father died (understandable). However, if he was prudent; and at least waited for his wisdom to return after the initial anger and shock wore off (at least a little); he may have finally acquired the realization that Mel was the cause of all his woes; including his altercation with his half-bro and subsequent exile; and MOST importantly his own current way of thinking. Then, coming to his senses; could have used those supreme oratory skills to rally the Valar from their stupor; and take care of business; which in all likelihood would have eventually happened. However; we would have then been left with a very boring book .



> by Turgon
> _Could they have finished him off? Save sticking a Silmaril down his throat and standing back to watch the fun_


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## Tar-Surion

Professor Tolkien was a very conservative fellow and had no time for rebels or rebellion. In every case rebellion is seen as almost sinful and invariably leads to disaster--Morgoth, Feanor, Ar-Pharazon, Castimir the Usurper. 

As a devout Catholic the Protestant Reformation, or "Rebellion" as Catholics call it, would have been one of the most grievous events in history. It touched him personally: his wife came over to Catholicism from the Anglican Church and was never really comfortable with it. It led to tension throughout their marriage.

As an Middle English scholar it was the usurper William of Normandy, surnamed the Conqueror, who brought and end to his idyllic Anglo-Saxon era and the organic development of the English language.

He lived moreover through the era of the world wars where various rebellions of the Left and the Right led parts of the world closer to Hell on Earth as we ever want to get.

Feanor in his political aspect is nothing but an irresponsible demagogue. His vainglorious life and death, his violence and treachery even to his own kin and kind, are expressions of the Professor's distaste for what he represents.

Whether you agree with him depends on your own political values. 

Oops, I just opened another can of worms.


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## Inderjit S

> For somebody who is supposed to be such a genius Feanor comes across as nothing more than an idiot: in both word and deed. I wouldn't fancy his chances against Morgoth at all, the guy simply wasn't smart enough for an opponent as cunning as Melkor. I'm guessing most of the information we had on his supposed genius came from the Noldolante - the biased views of one of his sons.



I am sorry but this is ridiculous-you are confusing "genius" with moralist-or you are incorrectly defining genius as a well-rounded individual-in either case the definition is untrue. Yes, Feanor’s solipistic egoism and selfishness are grating, but that is the thing with genius-it grates, as Nabokov said of Gogol, "Gogol was a strange creature, but then genius is always strange, it is only your healthy second rater who seems to the reader to be a wise old friend, nicely developing the reader's notion of life". How anybody can question Feanor's genius is beyond me. He created the Silmarils, he instigated many cultural, linguistic and technological developments within Elven society, he led the Noldor to rebellion, and he was a great orator, linguistic and completely and utterly made. Yes, he was a prat, but he was certainly a genius as well. If the definition of genius is "wise" (whatever tendentious connotations are associated with the word 'wise') or 'selfless', or other personality aspects, then you have a strange definition of genius. By your logic, Sam is more of a genius than Feanor.


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## Illuin

Well my opinion is what it is, I still think he was a maniac. Galadriel didn't like him, and she had that unparalleled judge of character sense going. But like I said before; without him we would have been left with a very dull book.


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## Turgon

Well no Inderjit - I was referring to Yay's statement that Feanor was the best at anything he set his mind to. In this case I was referring to his military 'genius'. This thread, after all, is about the Noldor's chances of defeating Morgoth and you are taking my post out of context. Leaving Fingolfin's host behind in Aman was military idiocy, I stand by my statement fully, and no amount of pro-Feanor spin can change that. 

As for my incorrect definition of 'genius' - I wasn't even aware I had attempted to define it. I merely made a semi-humorous post to have a little dig at the Feanor fans. Sorry you didn't find it funny - but please keep your patronizing tone to yourself - I'm really not in the mood for it.


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## Bucky

Well, Turgon, in reading YayGollum's posts, you must understand everything he writes is tongue-in-cheek satire from a viewpoint of loving evil & hating good like the *REAL* Gollum would see, don't you? 

I really don't think Feanor was looking at leaving Fingolfin behind from a military standpoint - He was 'fey' as Tolkien says & an egomaniac run amuck....

He'd been pampered by his father all his life, told how great he was, etc., A legend in his own mind & says in his great speech to get the Noldor to leave Aman that he's going pursue even Vala that keep the Silmarils, doing greater deeds than Tulkas & Orome.

Later, even after the Doom of the Noldor is pronounced by whoever, Eonwe or Mandos, Feanor replies that not only will he do such great deeds that the Valar will hear of it, they will FOLLOW him.....

The dude's certainly a bit full of himself to say the least, so I don't think the problem is a lack of military stragedy, it's a case of over inflated ego & being totally out of contol to his emotions, which we see repeatedly from Feanor, from pulling the sword on Fingolfin to rash words, to the Oath, etc.

So, Feanor seems to think himself as the greatest ever, incapable of wrong & acting before thinking. You put that together & you get him leaving over half his potential force behind (no problem in the long run as they got there anyhow) & it gets him killed by rashly attacking with few forces around him & that probably would've happened regardless of whether Fingolfin's folks were shipped across or not.


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## Illuin

It all is hinged on the strife within. No kin slaying/desertion - no Doom/Ban; Feanor would have more than likely still been alive (maybe even less rash as time went on). I also think Feanor could have (and probably would have) killed Sauron single-handedly; seeing that it took a host of Balrogs, including the big cheese to take him down. He would have considered Sauron a trifle nuisance; a pest in the way of his precious Silmarils that he needed to get rid of. Mr. Inert over there in Doriath would have still been a creep, but likely would have joined in the battles (which would have been huge at the Nirnaeth); and with the Valar not being so ticked off; they probably would have sent the rest of the Western host East long before Bragollach anyway. However, if that were the case, The Hobbit would be all that was known of J.R.R. Tolkien.


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## Prince of Cats

And of course remember that Melkor was hard at work at the task he succeeded in concerning Feanor's fall. Man was I mad when I read about him refusing to give the silmarils to Yavannah (and it kept getting worse of course from there  )


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## Illuin

Just to be puerile and lighten things up, I love imagining "what if" scenarios. Imagine if Feanor, Fingolfin, Huan and Luthien were present during the War Of The Ring. _Game over man_ (quote from "_Aliens_", but fitting nonetheless). Imagine the horror and terror entering Sauron's mind if the name “Huan” was mentioned. Just send Luthien and Huan with Frodo and Sam, and have Feanor and Fingolfin join forces with Aragorn, Gandalf, and the rest of the crew. This would turn the War into "sport" for our boys (and the White Lady of Rohan of course). Gollum’s destiny would unfortunately be altered, as he would become the crazy-bouncing, three-tiered rough & rugged rubber pimple chew toy for Huan.


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## Bucky

I also think Feanor could have (and probably would have) killed Sauron single-handedly; seeing that it took a host of Balrogs, including the big cheese to take him down.

*Well, did it actually take a host of Balrogs to 'take him (Feanor) down', or did there just happen to be a host there?
Would 2 have sufficed as with Fingon, including 'the big cheese'?

Remember:

1. We're talking about Feanor's skill in battle, not 'skill' as a jewel-maker & alphabet maker here & the fact is that Fingon was a 400 year battle tested veteran & Feanor was a 'fey' rookie when killed.

2. Sauron, despie common misconception, was a much greater Maia than Gothmog. Tolkien said so. I've referred to this before - HoME, Volume 10, page 414, alot: 'Melkor had corrupted many spirits - some greater, as Sauron, some less so, as Balrogs.' 

So, we see that Sauron, unlike the Balrogs, would be a much greater 'spiritual' foe.
Yet, we also know that Sauron could be slain & return, although this seems to be a greater plot devise of Tolkien, but must remain within part of the History of Middle-earth & a weakness of Sauron as a warrior too. *


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## Illuin

> _from Bucky_
> _So, we see that Sauron, unlike the Balrogs, would be a much greater 'spiritual' foe._


 
Well, regarding Feanor, it’s certainly not because I like him personally; he was a selfish reckless extremist (as you have probably heard me say in other posts). But concerning Sauron, I don’t believe he would have been much of a contest to Feanor. Look at what Fingolfin did to Morgoth, who was infinitely more powerful than his sidekick Lugbúrz; and I'm fairly certain Feanor could have taken out Fingolfin; his half-bro. He was raging with fury over his dad, and so hell-bent on recapturing the Silmarils, he became single-minded and uncontrollable; which is why he would have laughed at Sauron’s petty mind tricks (in which; no doubt Feanor was his equal). If Sauron got in the way (and he most certainly would have), well; Hasta la vista! Also, in truth, Feanor was only marginally defiled by Melkor; which was amplified only by the death of his father and of course; the theft of the pride and joy of his own hands. In all of Tolkien’s work, Feanor would be the one that I myself would fear the most. Could he have taken Melkor? Of course not; but Melkor's puppet servant Sauron - his little apron wearing waiter, who was obstructing his ultimate goal in regaining his Silmarils; certainly would have been fiercely and mercilessly dealt with. Just as you have stated; Sauron’s warrior skills, and his tactics in combat were at best, well; weak. 

_



We're talking about Feanor's skill in battle, not 'skill' as a jewel-maker & alphabet maker

Click to expand...

_ 
He had many skills; Maia and Valar alike couldn’t duplicate (or comprehend) some of the things he accomplished. The fact that he was mentioned as being the greatest of craft; or lore; does not imply that he was exclusively limited to those specific abilities. That was only to provide a setting, or partial representation (and/or sample) of his extraordinary overall abilities. A conversation between Gandalf and Pippin may shine some light and perspective regarding the power and abilities of Feanor:

_*‘About the palantiri of the Kings of Old,’ said Gandalf.*_
_*‘And what are they?’*_
_*‘The name meant* that which looks far away*. The Orthanc-stone was one.’*_
_*‘Then it was not made, not made’ - Pippin hesitated - ‘by the Enemy?’*_
_*‘No,’ said Gandalf. ‘Nor by Saruman. It is beyond his art, and beyond Sauron’s too. The palantiri came from beyond Westernesse, from Eldamar. The Noldor made them. Feanor himself, maybe, wrought them, in the days so long ago that the time cannot be measured in years. But there is nothing that Sauron cannot turn to evil uses.’*_

_*‘Have I not felt it? Even now my heart desires to test my will upon it, to see if I could not wrench it from him and turn it where I would - to look across the wide seas of water and of times to Tirion the Fair, and perceive the unimaginable hand and mind of Feanor at their work…’*_

Gandalf (Maia) being in absolute awe of this unique Elf says a lot.

I don’t believe it; I’m subtly praising Feanor; the one I have always despised (and still do). All the same; as far as this fantasy is concerned, I think Feanor would have disposed of Sauron fairly quickly (and I'm sure; if it were necessary; Celegorm would not have said no to his dad if Feanor had requested the temporary services of Huan ).


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## Turgon

I'm not really sure Feanor would have bested Fingolfin in battle. Rage can work both ways and sometimes a calm, clear head is the most effective weapon on the field of battle. As for him beating Sauron? It's entirely possible I think: given that Gil-galad and Elendil managed to take him down when he was wearing the One Ring. Of course Gil-galad and Elendil were both hardened warriors themselves: whereas Feanor was something of a rookie.


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## Bucky

I thought about the palantari.....

But have you considered that they are very silmilar in there make-up to the Silmarils?

The are both crystaline, shine from within.
One gives off light from the tree, the other the light from far away.

So, in truth, the same, 'technology' (for lack of a better word) was used to create both the Palantiri & the Silmarils. Yes, there was a difference & in truth, the Palantiri must have been harder to make.

BTW: it's also mentioned in the Silmarillion that Feanor made the Palantiri: 

'And other crystals he (Feanor) made also, wherein things far away could be seen small but clear...'

On Feanor's skill as a warrior, it's total speculation. Since he went & got himself killed in his first battle, his record indicates he wasn't very good, right?

As far as Sauron being some weakling & not having the cunning of Morgoth, well the history of MIddle-earth doesn't bear that out at all.

In fact Tolkien says in HoME, Volume 10 (love that volume!), 'Myth's Tranformed' page 394:

'Sauron was 'greater' effectively', in the 2nd Age than Morgoth at the end of the First (Age).
Why?
Because, though he was far smaller by natural stature, he had not yet fallen so low.
Eventually he (Sauron) also squandered his power (of being - author) in the endeavor to gain control over others. But he was not obliged to expend so much of himself.
To gain domination over Arda Morgoth had to let most of his being pass into the physical constistuents of the Earth..... Morgoth at the time of the War of the Jewels had become permanently 'incarnate': for this reason he was afraid, & waged war almost entirely by means of devices (raining down fire in the 4th Battle, pestilence), or of subordinates (Sauron, Gothmog, Glaurung) & dominated creatures (orcs, trolls, Easterlings, werewolves, dragons)'. 

In other words, Morgoth had poured his power into other beings, no longer had it in himself, simply ruled as a tyrant & Sauron actually had more innate 'spiritual' power left in him than Morgoth did.

Does this mean Sauron could've taken over for Morgoth?
Probably no.
Morgoth gigantic size alone - Sauron was 'far smaller in natural stature' & Morgoth probably kept things in line through mere intimidation of how he looked & who he had been alone - there was no reason for anyone to know overtly that his power was dissapated was there?


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## Illuin

> from Bucky
> _On Feanor's skill as a warrior, it's total speculation. Since he went & got himself killed in his first battle, his record indicates he wasn't very good, right?_


Well, again; this is a “what if” scenario; where Feanor, despite all of his rage and anger still managed to muster enough sense to avoid a kin slaying; and desertion of his extended family. As far as his “record”; it seems incredible to me; but a gang of Balrogs is a bit much for anyone (even Ungoliant). It wasn’t exactly a walk in the park for Gandalf either; and that was just one; and not the chief either. Before the Balrogs were involved, he pretty much destroyed everything in his path; with little effort it would seem. 

_



As far as Sauron being some weakling & not having the cunning of Morgoth, well the history of MIddle-earth doesn't bear that out at all.

Click to expand...

_ 
Well, I never implied Sauron wasn’t “cunning”; that was his primary weapon. And even if Feanor was unsure if he could kill Sauron or not; all he would have to do (if his pride would allow it) is take Huan with him. Since the One Ring didn’t exist yet; if Sauron were killed, he would likely have to go back and deal with Mandos and crew; and I’m quite certain he would not have been permitted to come back.



> from Turgon
> _I'm not really sure Feanor would have bested Fingolfin in battle._


 
That would indeed be a good one. I think Fingolfin would have been a more formidable opponent than even Sauron.


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## Bucky

if Sauron were killed, he would likely have to go back and deal with Mandos and crew; and I’m quite certain he would not have been permitted to come back.

*I'm not so sure of that......

That hypothysis is based on what?
All I can think of about Sauron dying prior to the creation of the One Ring is in the Battle of Huan versus The (Were) Wolf-Sauron. There Wolf-Sauron's 'ghost' would've been sent 'quaking back to Morgoth' 'There everlasting thy naked self shall endure the torment of his scorn, pierced by his eyes.....'

So, it appears that Sauron's spirit would've endured, but not in Mandos. Likely, the same happened to the slain Balrogs I'd wager.

Mandos, or his Halls, was the waiting place for Elvish Fea (spirits). *


And even if Feanor was unsure if he could kill Sauron or not; all he would have to do (if his pride would allow it) is take Huan with him. 

*The problem in a chance encounter in battle is that the Elves never said "I better take Huan with us just in case Sauron's around & he decides to turn into a Werewolf so he can kill Huan by himself." *


Well, I never implied Sauron wasn’t “cunning”; that was his primary weapon. 

*I was referring to the comment:

Melkor's puppet servant Sauron - his little apron wearing waiter, 

It seems Sauron gets so little respect, especially for a 'guy' that Tolkien states had greater power than 'Morgoth' (Not 'Melkor'), certainly Gothmog and, by his own admission, Gandalf.*


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## Illuin

> From Bucky
> _It seems Sauron gets so little respect, especially for a 'guy' that Tolkien states had greater power than 'Morgoth' (Not 'Melkor'), certainly Gothmog and, by his own admission, Gandalf._


 
Well, there do “appear” to be a couple of contradictory statements:

_Sauron was ‘greater’, effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural [spiritual] stature, he had not yet fallen so low. Eventually he also squandered his power (of being) in the endeavour to gain control over others. But he was not obliged to expend so much of himself… [He] inherited [from Morgoth] the ‘corruption’ of Arda [the world], and only spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings; for it was the creatures of earth, in their minds and wills, that he desired to dominate. _

And:

"_This book indeed is all about Morgoth. Incomparably greater than the power of Sauron, concentrated in the One Ring, Morgoth's power was dispersed into the very matter of Arda: 'The whole of Middle-earth was Morgoth's Ring.'_" 

We are also speaking of The First Age; when The Ring trickery wasn’t in the picture. I think Feanor would have had a hard time getting to Sauron in The Ring situation. But its early in The First Age, and we are dealing with a very special, powerful, lunatic Elf with unimaginable rage (I don’t know of anyone else who’s body was reduced to ashes because of their fiery spirit). Also, if Sauron did not have to return to the Valar after he was killed (maybe after a bit of mocking from his master), that would imply he would be able to just keep coming back; over and over. I just don’t see that as being likely without his Ring. Don’t think Manwe, or even Eru would go for it; especially when there is no Doom or Ban. The Valar would be upset and probably miss the Noldor's kinship, but they wouldn't be outraged; thus much more inclined to help. You are still looking at this as if the Doom and Ban are still present.


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## Illuin

PS - regarding your quote about Sauron getting so little respect - he must get at least a little; we have turned a thread about Morgoth into a thread about Sauron


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## Bucky

PS - regarding your quote about Sauron getting so little respect - he must get a least a little; we have turned a thread about Morgoth into a thread about Sauron 

*YES!

Well, Sauron DID claim to be Morgoth returned to his servants in the Third Age....... *


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## Inderjit S

On Balrog and Sauron-you are assuming that power can only be concentrated merely in a violent fashion-Sauron was greater than the Balrogs when it came to cunning and technology, but the Balrog's were problably greater 'warrior's than Sauron because their powers were concentrated in that direction-which is why Sauron was Morgoth's lietenant, and the Balrog's were Morgoth's lackeys, Sauron was more of a general than a fighter, though he was more 'powerful' than the Balrogs, in the same way that Manwe was more powerful than Ulmo or Tulkas, despite being an inferior warrior. 



> Sauron was ‘greater’, effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural [spiritual] stature, he had not yet fallen so low. Eventually he also squandered his power (of being) in the endeavour to gain control over others. But he was not obliged to expend so much of himself… [He] inherited [from Morgoth] the ‘corruption’ of Arda [the world], and only spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings; for it was the creatures of earth, in their minds and wills, that he desired to dominate.



This statement only makes sense when taken into context. First note the word 'effectively', Sauron was not AS powerful as Morgoth, he was relatively speaking, more powerful. Firstly, Morgoth had disseminated most of his power in corrupting Arda and it's creatures, secondly, Morgoth's foes were far more dangerous than Sauron's, leaving aside the Numenoreans, and the third part allows a theological connotation-Sauron still believed in a higher power than himself, thus was morally 'better' than Morgoth, whereas Morgoth was a complete nihilist, who thought that nothing else should exist in the world, apart from himself; Sauron was perfectly happy with the existence of the world, so long as he could order him according to his will-this trait of Sauron, which he spoon fed to Saruman, was the cause of his downfall. 

It is also important to note that Sauron got his ass handed to him on mutliple occasions, and it took several Balrogs quite a long time to take care of Feanor.


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## Bucky

On Balrog and Sauron-you are assuming that power can only be concentrated merely in a violent fashion-

*Well, I'm talking about innate, spiritual power. Tolkien clearly states Sauron was 'greater' & Balrogs 'lesser' there. For purposes of this discussion (or where it's morphed), it's who would be a better fight or (as I'm apt to do), the spiritual strengths of Sauron vs. the Balrogs or Morgoth (not Melkor).

As to your point, I totally agree about Sauron versus the Balrogs on balltlefield prowess & have said so.
I actually posted this the other day on the 'Balrogs' thread:

I think one area were people get confused is the semantics of Sauron being called 'Leiutenant of Angband' versus Gothmog being 'High-Captain of Angband'......

This gives folks the idea that Sauron & Gothmog were interchangeable & equal in the heirarchy to Morgoth - Not so.....

I take this to mean that Sauron was second in command of Angband while Gothmog was the actual battlefield commander of the millitary forces (when Glarung wasn't leading them, like in the 4th Battle or against Nargothrond).
On what do I base this?

Because when Morgoth left Angband to go East to check out the newly risen men he left Sauron in control of the war & Angband, plus Sauron ruled Angband when Melkor ruled Utumno. Also, Gothmog constantly shows up in battle while while Sauron also sets up as a millitary commander in Minas Tirath after it falls.

Therefore, Sauron WAS second in command to Morgoth, & indeed ruled over Gothmog, certainly when Morgoth was gone. The only area where Gothmog probably had autonomy over Sauron was on the battlefield & (possibly) over the Balrogs as 'Lord of Balrogs'.


On your points about Sauron vs. Morgoth - good arguements & it shows you've studied that essay & are probably a deeper thinker than me (I've read your other posts, lol)!
I needed to reread that essay ten times to get it....

Yet, one needs to take into account that Morgoth was still bereft of almost all his 'spiritual' power while Sauron was not - Morgoth couldn't even take on Ungoliant when his Balrogs could for example - while Sauron not only had all his spiritual power, it may have actually been increased by the Ring. And: 
*


secondly, Morgoth's foes were far more dangerous than Sauron's, leaving aside the Numenoreans,

*Leave the Numenoreans aside?
Why not say, 'leaving aside the Noldor, Morgoth had nobody substancial to fight?'

You just can't do that. *


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## Illuin

> from Bucky
> _Therefore, Sauron WAS second in command to Morgoth, & indeed ruled over Gothmog, certainly when Morgoth was gone. The only area where Gothmog probably had autonomy over Sauron was on the battlefield & (possibly) over the Balrogs as 'Lord of Balrogs'._


 
Well, this is a grey area. As Gandalf said regarding Sauron; “*Wise Fool*”. If I were in Gothmog’s shoes, I would have been a gossip within the ranks, and said; _“What does our Master see in this idiot?”_ 




> from Inderjit S
> _Sauron still believed in a higher power than himself, thus was morally 'better' than Morgoth_


 
Well perhaps at first; yet here is a quote from one of Tolkien's letters:

_*"In my story Sauron represents as near an approach to wholly evil as is possible* (don't remember Morgoth having that title )*. He had gone the way of all tyrants, beginning well, at least on the level that while desiring to order all things according to his own wisdom he still at first considered the (economic) well-being of other inhabitants of the Earth. But he went further than human tyrants in pride and the lust for domination, being in origin an immortal (angelic) spirit."*_ 


I think as time went on, the morality issue when comparing Sauron and Morgoth is irrelevant, and indistinguishable: 

_*"In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and*_* in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself. But in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and he walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void" - *The Silmarillion

But; (concerning the aforementioned subject of Feanor killing Sauron); I still have no doubt that Feanor's first priority would have been to rid himself of this paltry obstacle; and would have succeeded with minimal effort; right on schedule. I mean, Feanor threatened and kicked Mel out of his house; and in shock and humiliation (and I do not doubt fear); Mel harkened! For Melkor himself to behold someone as being a dangerous, crazed psychotic; well, that's says quite a bit. Sauron would have been toast; or he would have fled to Mordor .


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## Inderjit S

> Well, I'm talking about innate, spiritual power. Tolkien clearly states Sauron was 'greater' & Balrogs 'lesser' there. For purposes of this discussion (or where it's morphed), it's who would be a better fight or (as I'm apt to do), the spiritual strengths of Sauron vs. the Balrogs or Morgoth (not Melkor).



Indeed-I agree with you, sorry if it seemed that I was miscontruing your post, Sauron was problably one of the greatest Maia, in terms of innate spiritual strength.



> Leave the Numenoreans aside?
> Why not say, 'leaving aside the Noldor, Morgoth had nobody substancial to fight?'



Sorry, I guess I need to clarify. When Morgoth fought the Noldor and the Edain, as well as the Sindar, Dwarves and Easterlings who opposed him, they were all in close proximity to him, and none of them had gone over to his side, like a lot of the Numenoreans had done to Sauron. Plus, the Numenorans were not involved with the affairs of Middle-Earth until after the time of Tar-Aldarion, and lived thousands of miles away-their forces at Gwathlo were (I believe, don't have the books in front of me) brushed aside by Sauron, and it took them some time to send a fleet off to help the Elves. But after Sauron's first invasion, the Numenoreans began to settle in Middle-Earth, as rivals to Sauron in terms of power, not as his enemies in the way that the Noldor+Sindar+Edain were the 'enemies' of Morgoth, waging eternal war against him-the Numenoreans merely wanted to increase their own power base in M-E, and they only regarded Sauron as an enemy insofar that he wilded a significant amount of power in M-E. Sauron was easily able to manipulate the Numenoreans, both in the S.A and T.A, in ways in which Morgoth could never manipulate the Noldor or Edain, though he did manipulate quite a few Elves and Men on an individual basis. 



> I think as time went on, the morality issue when comparing Sauron and Morgoth is irrelevant, and indistinguishable



Well, yes and no. Yes, Sauron later began to believe his own hype, hence he called himself Morgoth and didn't allow his low ranking servants to use his proper name. (His higher servants knew exactly who he was, however, and so did, I guess, deep down, most of the Orks.) But Sauron was still content to let the world actually _exist_ as an indepedent body from himself, so long as he could rule it as he wished; Morgoth merely wanted to destroy the world because it was not Morgoth. Sauron also could not be a sincere atheist-he knew of the existence of Morgoth, the Valar and Eru-he did not join in with the original discords of Melkor, he was only able to corrupt the Numenoreans by stating that Morgoth was the original god-he only stated this to further his own power, whereas Morgoth really believed this to be true.


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## Illuin

> By Inderjit S
> _he was only able to corrupt the Numenoreans by stating that Morgoth was the original god-he only stated this to further his own power, whereas Morgoth really believed this to be true._


 

Well, I don’t think Morgoth believed he was the original god. He did desire the Imperishable Flame, and maybe he believed that if he found it he could be as Eru, but I’m quite certain he had not forgotten Eru and his power. Even if he believed The Silmarils were some kind of quasi Imperishable Flame, I’m sure he was still keen enough to realize that it wasn’t quite the same thing. Morgoth was simply a very powerful spoiled brat who believed he was so above all of the other Ainur, that Arda was “owed him”; and when he realized that wasn’t happening, he threw a temper-tantrum that lasted for thousands of years.


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## Bucky

from Bucky
Therefore, Sauron WAS second in command to Morgoth, & indeed ruled over Gothmog, certainly when Morgoth was gone. The only area where Gothmog probably had autonomy over Sauron was on the battlefield & (possibly) over the Balrogs as 'Lord of Balrogs'. 

Well, this is a grey area.

*Well, I don't think you can say it is a grey area that Sauron ruled over Gothmog in the above statement......

He certainly was in command when Morgoth was gone, not Gothmog.
Therefore, Gothmog answered to him.
Also, chances are, you'd put your 2nd in command in charge when gone, not your 3rd.....*


the Numenoreans began to settle in Middle-Earth, as rivals to Sauron in terms of power, not as his enemies in the way that the Noldor+Sindar+Edain were the 'enemies' of Morgoth, waging eternal war against him-the Numenoreans merely wanted to increase their own power base in M-E, and they only regarded Sauron as an enemy insofar that he wilded a significant amount of power in M-E.

*I must agree with this asessment 100%, yet motives hardly change the fact that the Numenoreans were one heck of a foe.
In fact, Akallabeth says by the time of Ar-Pharazon, he had become 'the mightiest tyrant that had yet been in the world since the reign of Morgoth.'*


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## Illuin

> from Bucky
> _Well, I don't think you can say it is a grey area..._


 
As far as the “grey area”, I was referring to your statement regarding Gothmog having autonomy over Sauron on the battlefield. I have no doubt Gothmog was far superior in hand to hand combat than Sauron (hence my belief Sauron would have been rid of by the hands of Feanor; which is the whole point of the current discussion ); though I don’t think Gothmog would have ever had autonomy over Sauron. As it’s been stated, Sauron wasn’t a soldier that went to battle; he was the visionary Commander in Chief supervising some of Morgoth’s forces; thus he always would have had the authority to bark orders at anyone; even Gothmog; on, or off the battlefield. 



> from Bucky
> _In fact, Akallabeth says by the time of Ar-Pharazon, he had become 'the mightiest tyrant that had yet been in the world since the reign of Morgoth.'_


 
After of course, heeding Sauron’s council; though he wasn't exactly noble and principled prior to that. 

_*"Thus Ar-Pharazon, King of the Land of the Star, grew to the mightiest tyrant that had yet been in the world since the reign of Morgoth, though in truth Sauron ruled all from behind the throne.”*_


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## Bucky

As far as the “grey area”, I was referring to your statement regarding Gothmog having autonomy over Sauron on the battlefield.

As it’s been stated, Sauron wasn’t a soldier that went to battle; he was the visionary Commander in Chief supervising some of Morgoth’s forces; thus he always would have had the authority to bark orders at anyone; even Gothmog; on, or off the battlefield. 

*Well, while I agree with these 2 statements, there seems to be a bit a problem in the middle of the second one.
You state that Sauron wasn't a soldier that went to battle, yet you say he could've barked orders at Gothmog on or off the battlefield. If not going to battle, how could Sauron be there to bark orders at Gothmog?


Personally, I agree that Sauron probably wasn't on the battlefield as a commander under Morgoth in the First Age. He seemed more of a commander of a fortress & 'Governor' that Morgoth set up once he conquered land, much as he had governed Angband while Morgoth was in Utumno.


Kinda the way Eisenhower was Patton's commanding officer in WWII, yet never saw one bit of on field action, ya know?

When the Battle of Sudden Flame took place, Glaurung & his brood, with Balrogs in his train, led the way, no mention of Sauron. Yet Sauron, not Glaurung or Gothmog, gets the spoils & is set up as vassal in the newly conquered Tower of Finrod, Minas Tirith. 
Even when Dorthonian is taken over in the next few years, we see 'Sauron's Hunters' doing the work, not Sauron.

It is only after Sauron loses the Tower to Luthien that Glarung sets up as a 'king' in Nargothrond. Of course, this is a totally different situation too. Glaurung has just conquered one kingdom & hasn't sent North to be replaced, he's also there for the purpose of destroying the people of Haleth & accomplishing his Master's destruction of the Children/family of Hurin.
So, it's hard to conclude Sauron has fallen out of favor with Morgoth, although it is possible.

Finally, on Sauron's fighting/battlefield capabilities, we do know that in the Second Age, he lead his forces in battle, both when conquering Eriador (that's been mentioned here recently I recall). & at the Seige of Barad-Dur, although somewhat reluctantly as it says somewhere (couldn't find it) that 'finally the seige became so straight that Sauron himself came forth'.

Now, one can assume the reason that Sauron lead the army into Eriador was because: Who else would? No Balrogs, Dragons or 'Super-Orcs' (lesser spirit embodied orc captains like the First Age) & the Nazgul had not appeared yet. Plus, Sauron wanted those Rings of Power Celebrimbor had. Would he trust a mere orc in command to get them?
No way.....

Therefore, we can deduce that for the only time in history Sauron went willingly to war.

Even in the breaking of Utumno, 'Sauron' they (the Valar) did not find'.....

Why? because he must've run away. *


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## Inderjit S

> Well, I don’t think Morgoth believed he was the original god. He did desire the Imperishable Flame, and maybe he believed that if he found it he could be as Eru, but I’m quite certain he had not forgotten Eru and his power. Even if he believed The Silmarils were some kind of quasi Imperishable Flame, I’m sure he was still keen enough to realize that it wasn’t quite the same thing. Morgoth was simply a very powerful spoiled brat who believed he was so above all of the other Ainur, that Arda was “owed him”; and when he realized that wasn’t happening, he threw a temper-tantrum that lasted for thousands of years.



I'm not so sure; I think Morgoth had completely lost the plot, so to speak, I mean he was teetering on the edge from the day he was created, he objected to the existence of the world-he was a complete and utter nihilist, THE nihilist, and he was completley misguided-he prob. believed everything he said in that little speech to Hurin. That is my reading of his character, from Myths Transformed. 



> In fact, Akallabeth says by the time of Ar-Pharazon, he had become 'the mightiest tyrant that had yet been in the world since the reign of Morgoth.'
> 08-23-2008 05:08 PM



Of course; though I think Tolkien states somewhere that the Last Alliance was as powerful as Ar-Pharazon's fleet. I do think that Sauron made a mistake here; he should have attacked Middle-Earth, and THEN attacked Valinor. But still, the Numenoreans had thousands of uninterrupted years of mating to boost their numbers-the Noldor, with the help of the Sindar, Dwarves, Easterlings and Edain, frequently wiped the floor with Morgoth's armies, even though they were heavily outnumbered and had to fight more Maia than the Numenoreans; _man-for-man _I think the Noldor would have wiped the floor with the Numenoreans, esp. if Finwe's brood actually stuck together. I also think that the combination of the Noldor+Sindar+Dwarves+Edain, with all their generals in place, would have beaten the Numenorean fleet. But all of this is hypothetical, of course.




> Finally, on Sauron's fighting/battlefield capabilities, we do know that in the Second Age, he lead his forces in battle, both when conquering Eriador (that's been mentioned here recently I recall). & at the Seige of Barad-Dur, although somewhat reluctantly as it says somewhere (couldn't find it) that 'finally the seige became so straight that Sauron himself came forth'.



And gets driven back by Celeborn hehe.


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## Bucky

man-for-man I think the Noldor would have wiped the floor with the Numenoreans, esp. if Finwe's brood actually stuck together. I also think that the combination of the Noldor+Sindar+Dwarves+Edain, with all their generals in place, would have beaten the Numenorean fleet. But all of this is hypothetical, of course.

*Well, I have to agree.
It must be taken into consideration that:

A. To be a 'Tyrant', you must rule absolutely & the Noldor & Company could not do that with Morgoth ruling at the same time. Only Morgoth, Sauron in the East & the Numenoreans ever did that.

B. The 'Alliance Against Morgoth' was constantly being wittled down by battle & division too.

C. The Numenoreans in the 'Sauron era' did indeed accumulate great power, both in Numenor & Middle-earth. Attacking Middle-earth first wasn't needed as they ruled there anyhow. *


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## Inderjit S

> The Numenoreans in the 'Sauron era' did indeed accumulate great power, both in Numenor & Middle-earth. Attacking Middle-earth first wasn't needed as they ruled there anyhow.



Perhaps, but is certainly would have solved the 'Gil-Galad' problem, were Sauron to return to Middle-Earth.


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## Bucky

Perhaps, but is certainly would have solved the 'Gil-Galad' problem, were Sauron to return to Middle-Earth.

*True....

I wonder how that would've flown with Ar-Pharazon?
Of course, Sauron was in Numenor as captive/Counselor for, what 90 years?

Only 58!

(How time flies when you're having fun) 

So, of course, from Sauron's perspective, he hates Gil-Galad & G-G has been his main obstruction to ruling Middle-earth since G-G discovered 'A servant of Morgoth is stirring' back in SA 883. Yet, despite this, Sauron knows that destroying Gil-Galad will bring him no closer to getting rid of the Numenoreans, who he was forced to bow down to in disgrace at Umbar when his own servants deserted him. 
So convincing Ar-Pharazon to attack Gil-Galad, while probably not being that hard, considering the dislike of the 'King's Men' for the Eldar, will actually be detrimental to building up a force strong enough to convince the king of Numenor he can sucessfully wage war on the Valar.*


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## Illuin

> by Inderjit S
> _I'm not so sure; I think Morgoth had completely lost the plot, so to speak, I mean he was teetering on the edge from the day he was created, he objected to the existence of the world-he was a complete and utter nihilist, THE nihilist, and he was completley misguided-he prob. believed everything he said in that little speech to Hurin. That is my reading of his character, from Myths Transformed._


 
Maybe; though deeming himself “Master of the Fate of Arda” and his actually believing he is “the god” of gods aren’t quite the same. Though in Myths it does say:

_“Or he [Morgoth] became so far advanced in lying that he lied even to himself”_ [Insertion mine]

It’s entirely possible he truly believed his own lies . But another quote says:

_“Morgoth’s staying ‘at home’ has, as described above, quite a different reason: his fear of being killed or even hurt”_

If he truly believed he was the original god, why was he such a chicken? I think the only _fear_ “god” would have is nobody caring about him; or acknowledging him; not a fear of being physically hurt or killed.


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## Burzum

Bucky said:


> *So convincing Ar-Pharazon to attack Gil-Galad, while probably not being that hard, considering the dislike of the 'King's Men' for the Eldar, will actually be detrimental to building up a force strong enough to convince the king of Numenor he can sucessfully wage war on the Valar.*


I doubt it; Ar-Pharazon would have waged war even if his fleet wasn't as great, due to the immense fear of death. Besides, I don't think destroying Gil-galad would have cost that much for Numenor. 

On some other issues: why do you guys consider Feanor to be superior to Fingolfin in terms of arms? The Simarillion explicitly states that Fingolfin was better at combat, and even though Feanor was greatly enraged, Fingolfin was also capable of being furious (remember, when he rode to Angband he was so great that he resembled Orome himself). Their strengths are not directly comparable, since there is no account of how well Fingolfin did in fighting Balrogs (or how well Feanor did in dueling Morgoth), but I think we should go with what is explicitly stated (that Fingolfin was the mgihtiest in arms). 

But of course, I agree that Feanor could have easily broken Sauron. This is proved by a simple inequality: Feanor > Ecthelion = Gothmog > Sauron. But then again, I highly doubt that Sauron would have stood in the way of Feanor. It's simply not Sauron's way; he did duel Elendil and Gil-galad in the Second Age but this time he isn't the final boss. It's more likely that he would have just fled or aided his master in other, more cerebral ways while letting Feanor challenge Morgoth directly. 

As for Sauron vs. Gothmog... I agree that Sauron was a moe behind-the-scenes manipulator, while Gothmog was a battlefield captain and a warrior. My view, though, is that Gothmog probably didn't take any orders from Sauron. I see their relationship as more horizontal than vertical; i.e.

Melkor
l l l
Sauron Gothmog ( Glaurung )


rather than


Melkor
l
Sauron
l
Gothmog
l
....


So, they all took orders directly from Melkor, but Sauron just technically ranked higher than all others.

To address the original topic: I think it was _technically _possible, but _practically _impossible. What I mean is that there wasn't an intrisically insurmountable wall that prevented the Elves from overthrwoing Morgoth in any way (unlike, say, if they were assailing Eru himself). Fingolfin and Thorondor has proven that Melkor can be wounded (and that the wounds are not easily, if in any way, healed), and another inequality comes into play as well: a number of Balrogs > Ungoliant > Morgoth (and we know that the strongest of the Elves could slay Balrogs). How many Balrogs were present, I do not know, and it could be that Morgoth was actually damn strong if we take the "thousand-Balrogs" hypothesis, but this, combined with the fact that he was wounded by Fingolfin and Thorondor, suggests that Morgoth wasn't all that great in physical strength. It seems logical to conclude that with sufficient force (say, a thousand soldiers plus a number of champions - Feanor, Fingolfin, Glorfindel, Ecthelion, etc.), Melkor himself could have been taken under control in some way (imprisonment, destroying the physical body, sending him to Valinor, etc.). 

However, that is when dealing exclusively with Morgoth himself. He has a lot of minions - orcs, trolls, wolves, Balrogs, and above all, dragons. And he dwells within Angband, which provides a very strong home ground advantage. The Noldor could at best form a siege, because the depths of Angband isn't exactly a good place to wage a war on. Meanwhile, Morgoth could build new armies within his fortress. Also, it appears that he builds them more quickly than the Elves, Men, and Dwarves rebuild their, and Morgoth makes quicker technological advancements (what did the Eldar do when Morgoth was breeding dragons?). If the war ensues with each battle taking away the strength from both, Morgoth, whose army rebuilds more quickly, will eventually have the upper hand. Besides, I don't think the Elves, even with the fire-resistant Dwarves, could stand the dragon fleet that Morgoth releases during the War of Wrath.


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## Goldilocks Gamgee

I feel like this thread could use some reviving.

This could be an interesting discussion topic.


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## Lómelindë Lindórië

I feel that Melkor was indeed the strongest of the Valar; had he not fallen, he would have definitely remained as one of the Aratar. Although whether it would be _impossible _to take him down depends on many factors..._of which I won't go into. _


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## HALETH✒🗡

Perhaps it was possible to defeat Morgoth with united forces. However, it was difficult for the elves to reach an agreement. Mongol invasion of Rus' was caused by similar reasons. Russian forces weren't united because of feudal fragmentation. The princes joined together thanks to Dmitry Donskoy. That's why the Battle of Kulikovo was successful and later the country was liberated. 
P. S. I'm trying to give a historical example, not a political one.


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## Hisoka Morrow

HALETH✒🗡 said:


> Perhaps it was possible to defeat Morgoth with united forces. However, it was difficult for the elves to reach an agreement. Mongol invasion of Rus' was caused by similar reasons. Russian forces weren't united because of feudal fragmentation. The princes joined together thanks to Dmitry Donskoy. That's why the Battle of Kulikovo was successful and later the country was liberated.
> P. S. I'm trying to give a historical example, not a political one.


My dear, there're also bunches of historical cases as horribly-feudal defeated well-centralized empires, such as Teutonburg Forest, and don't forget Afghanistan's cases against multiple superpowers. XD
Yes, wars are really the extension of politics according to Clausewitz, but don't forget Sun Tzu said politicians shouldn't interrupt the frontal commanders. I suppose we should not only focus political, but also military and so on, such as command system(yeah, such as no idea where're the palantirs doing during the unnumbered tears.)


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## Melkor

Elves were capable of destroying Melkor's armies. Problem is how to break through the gates of Angband. And then what? Angband is vast mostly underground fortress with many corridors, mines and dungeons. Try to lead the army through these corridors and not get scattered and lost (without food and water). And fighting here wouldn't be easy too.


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## Hisoka Morrow

Melkor said:


> ...underground fortress with many corridors, mines and dungeons....


If that's so, the almost only advantage of Melkor armed forces-superior quantity of personnel and ammunition would be only decoration. Don't forget, in close-quarter combat, single personnel combat quality played a much heavier role, all these maze-like fortification would provide nothing but cover for Melkor's forces escape. Just take a look at each street skirmish during USA-middle east military operation. In addition, Melkor's personnel mostly sucked in morale education, thus they wouldn't make Angaband a Stalingrad.


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