# Why do forum members think balrogs are stronger even though dragons are much bigger than balrogs?



## Aragorn II Elessar (Feb 27, 2022)

A balrog vs a dragon.


Originally posted by mr underhill dragon could beat a balrog anyday! yer sooo wrong.... balrogs are made of fire and shadow, here is an example... In the hobbit, Bard killed Smaug, it was a great shot... but one man still killed him, and it wasn't exactly real well planned. But in the...




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In this regard, only 6 people including me said that dragons are stronger. According to about 18 people, balrogs are stronger. The length of the balrogs is between 3 and 4 meters. However, the glaurung, the father of dragons, was about 100 meters long. other dragons too are much larger in size than the average balrog. for example;









why do you think the balrogs are stronger despite the size difference? Please don't say that balrogs have magical powers, because dragons have magical powers too. Remember the glaurung's spell on Nienor.


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## Halasían (Feb 27, 2022)

> *Why do forum members think balrogs are stronger even though dragons are much bigger than balrogs?*​


That is a bit of a broad brush. Don't recall myself saying that.


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## HALETH✒🗡 (Feb 28, 2022)

Dragons were defeated by men (Bard and Turin), while it was incredibly difficult to defeat the balrog in Moria even for Gandalf. That's why people may claim that balrogs are stronger than dragons. I'm curious to know what makes balrogs so powerful.


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## Aragorn II Elessar (Feb 28, 2022)

HALETH✒🗡 said:


> Dragons were defeated by men (Bard and Turin), while it was incredibly difficult to defeat the balrog in Moria even for Gandalf. That's why people may claim that balrogs are stronger than dragons. I'm curious to know what makes balrogs so powerful.


There's one thing you forgot. The balrog in Moria gained strength over time. So it got stronger. It was at a much stronger level than a normal balrog.


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## HALETH✒🗡 (Feb 28, 2022)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> There's one thing you forgot. The balrog in Moria gained strength over time. So it got stronger. It was at a much stronger level than a normal balrog.


Could other balrogs gain strength over time?


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## Aragorn II Elessar (Feb 28, 2022)

HALETH✒🗡 said:


> Could other balrogs gain strength over time?


I don't know.


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## Elthir (Feb 28, 2022)

My answer is: *Túrin Turambar*


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## 1stvermont (Mar 1, 2022)

As someone already stated this is a very broad brush. It depends on the dragon. Having said that there is a great book coming out that argues dragons were more powerful than balrogs. The author posts on this very forum


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## Peter86 (Mar 2, 2022)

I have always felt a bit intrigued by that part when Fëanor is attacked by balrogs in "The Silmarillion", and the book is like "long he fought on, and unrestrained";
this makes it sound as if he was able to fight against several balrogs by himself, which is pretty amazing when you think of how the balrog in Moria was clearly considered an alarming threat.

Was Fëanor just _that_ powerful, or did he get assaulted by relatively weak balrogs?
I guess his rage at that moment probably gave him a lot of extra strength, and this might have also made him stop caring about his own physical wounds and just go berserk as long as he could.


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## Aragorn II Elessar (Mar 2, 2022)

Peter86 said:


> I have always felt a bit intrigued by that part when Fëanor is attacked by balrogs in "The Silmarillion", and the book is like "long he fought on, and unrestrained";
> this makes it sound as if he was able to fight against several balrogs by himself, which is pretty amazing when you think of how the balrog in Moria was clearly considered an alarming threat.
> 
> Was Fëanor just _that_ powerful, or did he get assaulted by relatively weak balrogs?
> I guess his rage at that moment probably gave him a lot of extra strength, and this might have also made him stop caring about his own physical wounds and just go berserk as long as he could.


The thing that surprised me the most in that part was that when Feanor fought the balrogs alone, he couldn't kill any balrogs. There were 7 balrogs around him. But he couldn't kill any of them. Very strange.


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## Peter86 (Mar 2, 2022)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> The thing that surprised me the most in that part was that when Feanor fought the balrogs alone, he couldn't kill any balrogs. There were 7 balrogs around him. But he couldn't kill any of them. Very strange.


I don't remember the book saying anything specific about whether he killed them or not;
I only remember that it said that he successfully fought with them for a long time without losing, and I kinda got the impression that this meant that he might have managed to kill some of them.
I do however remember that it said that "the balrogs left" right after Fëanor's sons came running, and "the balrogs" could be interpreted as "the balrogs who originally appeared".


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## 1stvermont (Mar 2, 2022)

Peter86 said:


> I have always felt a bit intrigued by that part when Fëanor is attacked by balrogs in "The Silmarillion", and the book is like "long he fought on, and unrestrained";
> this makes it sound as if he was able to fight against several balrogs by himself, which is pretty amazing when you think of how the balrog in Moria was clearly considered an alarming threat.
> 
> Was Fëanor just _that_ powerful, or did he get assaulted by relatively weak balrogs?
> I guess his rage at that moment probably gave him a lot of extra strength, and this might have also made him stop caring about his own physical wounds and just go berserk as long as he could.




Gothmog was among them, the captain of balrogs.

Noldor king Fingon fought one-on-one versus Gothmog, the captain of the Balrogs, and Gothmog could not kill Fingor one-on-one. Only when the other Balrogs encircled the elf king, distracting him, that enabled Gothmog to kill him. Previously, Gothmog and his Balrogs had fled from Fingolfin and his kin. In “Of the Return of the Noldor,” Feanor was surrounded by many Balrogs, and though alone and outnumbered, long he fought before finally being wounded by Gothmog. However, Feanor’s sons fought and drove off the Balrogs, but Feanor soon died of his wounds. 

Later, Gothmog was killed by Ecthelion during the sacking of Gondolin. “Ecthelion jumped and wrapped his legs around the demon, driving the spike of his helmet into Gothmog’s body. It caused Gothmog to lose his balance, and he, along with Ecthelion, fell into the Fountain of the King.” During the retreat of the same battle, the elf lord Glorfindel killed a Balrog with his sword to the stomach of his Adversary. 

In Unfinished Tales, Voronwe said, it was “the great worm of Angband” that was “most fell of all the creatures of the enemy.” In the battle of sudden flame, the dragon Glaurung led Morgoth’s assault, followed by Balrogs, and finally, orcs in a progression from shock troops to weakest. In the War of Wrath, while defending, it was the opposite. First, the orcs deteriorated, then the Balrogs were destroyed or fled, and Morgoth finally unleashed his dragons. The dragons had the most success, pushing back Valar and the host, and the battle was pending for a day and night. In the fifth battle, victory was not achieved by dragons or Balrogs but by the treachery of men as the Easterlings turned on the Noldor in a devastating flanking attack. During the battle of sudden flame, when elves and men were taken by surprise and, for the most part, fled or were defeated, orcs and Balrogs failed to capture Hithlum defended by Galdor the Tall, and it became “a threat upon the flank of Morgoth’s attack.”


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## Matthew Bailey (May 29, 2022)

The issue of “Size” is one that *many people tend to exaggerate* within Tolkien’s works.

They depict Ancalagon as being the size of Ceres (the Asteroid), or some other ludicrous and idiotic size. Or show the Balrogs to be enormous giants 30 to 100 feet tall (Like Peter Jackson mistakenly did).

Tolkien didn’t go in for those kinds of things, and in _*The Nature of Middle-earth*_ on p. 246, in an essay he wrote on the visual forms of the Ainur, he says:



> *The Nature of Middle-Earth*; Part Two, Chapter XIV: _The Visible Forms of the Valar and Maiar, _p. 246
> 
> The future forms of the bodies of Elves and Men they knew, though they had no part in their making. In these forms they presented themselves to the Elves (though they could assume other and wholly alien shapes), appearing usually as persons of majestic (but not gigantic) stature.



The same chapter has an exploration of the Elves and Númenoreans being regularly over 7’ tall, especially in the earlier days of their history and lives. The Elves tended to become slightly shorter as the ages past, with 7’+ being an exceptionally tall Elf, but where 6’ to 7’ was still common. And the Edain/Dúnedain were still over 6’ tall as a rule, especially in the North of Eriador. 

This is relevant, because Tolkien uses that to describe “_Majesty in Stature_.” That height would also be accompanied by a significant mass, and not with either the features of Acromegaly nor other tendencies of very tall humans to have a lateral disproportion. This would mean that your 7’ tall Elf or Númenórean would tend to be pretty substantial, with features proportionate to their height, with only a slight “Thinning” of the proportions in being 8+ heads’ in height, rather than the 6 to 7 heads‘ height that defines most people‘s proportions.

In the arts, this is defined as “Heroic Proportions.” You typically see this in Superheroes in Comic Books, where even with a height that isn’t like 7’ tall, their proportions show a more muscular build that isn’t “Bulky,” as would be a person of similar height and weight whose proportions were fit to 6 to 7 heads in height. 

But to get back to Tolkien’s Dragons, Balrogs, and Ainur…

The Dragons tended to be roughly _Dinosaur sized_, as we see in Tolkien’s illustrations of Glaurung and Smaug. Ancalagon would probably have been about 5× The size of Smaug, who was one of the larger of the Great, Winged, Fire-breathing Dragons. The appellation of “_The Golden_,” which was more than just an homage to Glaurung. It was a means of displaying his “Magnificence” to the world, and of usurping the Title from Glaurung, rather than paying homage to his ancestor. But being the Greatest Dragon of the Third Age means he was likely the Greatest Dragon of the Second Age as well, given that Tolkien would likely have thrown a reference in to any other Dragon as fearsome. 

The Balrogs tend to be roughly a bit larger than Trolls (meaning 9’ to 12’ in height, and not the 30’ to 100’ we see in many illustrations).

And the Ainur tended to be the 7’ to 8’ of the tallest Elves, again with the “Heroic Proprtions.” Things like Ulmö’s appearance to Tuor on the Beach of Vinyalondë would likely have been only slightly larger than this, given that Tolkien’s comparison to a large wave would have been akin to those of the North Sea and the Mediterranean that Tolkien was familiar with, that would not have been the massive breakers that you find in Hawaii, or the rest of the South Pacific, where such breakers can be up to 100’ in height.

Tolkien‘s descriptions of great stature/size tend to be inferences, rather than explicit statements, where the _*PERCEPTION*_ is what matters, and *not the Reality…*

Sort of like Balrog’s Wings, which are both there and not there, simultaneously.

Similarly, Tolkien wants the appearance of great size and Stature, *BUT NOT GIGANTIC!*

_MB_


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## d4rk3lf (Jun 25, 2022)

Well, first of all, I don't think dragon fire could harm creature that is made of fire like Balrogs. 
Secondly, in Tolkien world, the site doesn't matter as much as the battle of the wills. 
If size matters, the Durin's Bane balrog would laugh upon Gandalf (and his height), but instead, he got very cautious. 

Morgot couldn't create Balrogs, it was far above him (or any Valar for that matter), but he did create dragons. 
That also should same something. 

They are just not in the same league... it's like wondering why biggest whale in the world can't harm a smallest submarine.


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## Radaghast (Jun 26, 2022)

HALETH✒🗡 said:


> Dragons were defeated by men (Bard and Turin), while it was incredibly difficult to defeat the balrog in Moria even for Gandalf. That's why people may claim that balrogs are stronger than dragons. I'm curious to know what makes balrogs so powerful.


Only because of a fortunate set of circumstances was Smaug slain. Otherwise, he was practically invincible.



d4rk3lf said:


> Well, first of all, I don't think dragon fire could harm creature that is made of fire like Balrogs.
> Secondly, in Tolkien world, the site doesn't matter as much as the battle of the wills.
> If size matters, the Durin's Bane balrog would laugh upon Gandalf (and his height), but instead, he got very cautious.
> 
> ...


Morgoth didn't create dragons. He bred them, probably using existing "stock".



Turin_Turambar said:


> There's one thing you forgot. The balrog in Moria gained strength over time. So it got stronger. It was at a much stronger level than a normal balrog.


Where does it say this?

For the record, I agree that Balrogs are not more powerful than Dragons, though the latter do have considerable and literal soft spots.


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## d4rk3lf (Jun 26, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> Morgoth didn't create dragons. He bred them, probably using existing "stock".


You're totally right. 
I stand corrected. 

It's common knowledge that Morgot actually couldn't create anything, and could just twist the Illuvatar's creations


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## Elassar (Jul 6, 2022)

Balrogs are Maia that is why I would say people have options like this but I also do not ever say that


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Jul 6, 2022)

Balrogs, being Maiar are extremely powerful and have great power that they draw from Melkor, their Vala. That is why I think that Balrogs have more power than Dragons. Dragons are created with power, and they have power, yes, but not as great as that of who created them. 

Since Balrogs are Maiar, I assume, like every other Maia, they draw power from their Valie or Vala, and because of that, they are able to have strength as though they are one of the Valar, and knowledge, and wisdom, and guidance. Dragons live and fight off of their own energy and power, while Balrogs draw from the much bigger force of their leader; Melkor, I believe.

The size does not matter, the power does. If a Balrog is able to harness and draw from Melkor more power than a Dragon, then that Balrog is more powerful, regardless of it's stature or size.

Again-- this is mostly speculation from me, but I am quite sure this is how Maiar work.


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## Elassar (Jul 6, 2022)

Also men and elves such as Bard, Earendil, Turin and Fram have killed dragons and lived to tell the tale (apart from Turin but everyone knows what happened to him) whereas balrogs have pretty much never been defeated. whenever anyone (that I know of) has killed a balrog, such as Gandalf, Glorfindel and Ecthellion they have killed themselves in the process. I wouldn't really see any of these scenarios as a victory for either side.


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## Gothmog (Jul 6, 2022)

Balrogs are more "Powerful" than dragons though not necessarily Stronger. As Maiar, they actually took part in the Creation of Ea! This is far beyond what dragons were capable of. Also as Maiar it is impossible to completely "Kill" one. Where a Dragon, once killed, is gone and that is the end of it. For a Balrog, though we have no information on how much power is lost in the killing of it's body, there is still some power left. One theory that has been put forward is that some of the more powerful, and seemingly long-lived, orcs are actually Maiar of Morgoth who have been bodily killed but able to create a new body as Sauron did but of lesser might.


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## Radaghast (Jul 6, 2022)

> For a Balrog, though we have no information on how much power is lost in the killing of it's body, there is still some power left.


I dunno about. All the Balrogs that were killed were pretty much all dead.


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## Gothmog (Jul 6, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> I dunno about. All the Balrogs that were killed were pretty much all dead.


How do you kill a spirit that existed before the creation of Arda?
The Balrogs were of the same order as Sauron. When their bodies were destroyed this did not mean the end of them entirely. Saruman was also Maia and when his body was "killed" by wormtongue his spirit was still there though weakened and denied entry to Aman.

Even after the destruction of the One Ring Sauron was not completely destroyed. The loss of such a great part of his native power meant that he could never again take shape and would remain only a shadow. However, we don't know what percentage of their power the Balrogs lost in the destruction of their bodies.


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## Radaghast (Jul 6, 2022)

The text suggests Saruman's spirit is wafted away on the wind. It doesn't say anything about it afterwards. Nor about any slain Balrog.


> Even after the destruction of the One Ring Sauron was not completely destroyed. The loss of such a great part of his native power meant that he could never again take shape and would remain only a shadow. However, we don't know what percentage of their power the Balrogs lost in the destruction of their bodies.


True, I'll give you that one. But, yeah, we don't know anything about the spirits of Balrogs' or Saruman's spirits. If you want to argue that, Men don't truly die either. Elves have shown the capacity to come back.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Jul 6, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> The text suggests Saruman's spirit is wafted away on the wind. It doesn't say anything about it afterwards. Nor about any slain Balrog.
> 
> True, I'll give you that one. But, yeah, we don't know anything about the spirits of Balrogs' or Saruman's spirits. If you want to argue that, Men don't truly die either. Elves have shown the capacity to come back.


Yes. I think the spirits of the Maia most likely go back to their Vala/Valie, and Eru or their Vala decides whether to grant them life in bodily form once more or not. That is always how I have imagined the life of Maiar. 

'Tis true. Then we must question if any have actually died, or if all are just in a state of being without corporeal appearance, and if they might all return; Elves, Men, Dwarves, and Maiar. 

This discussion may lead down paths unseen...


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## Gothmog (Jul 6, 2022)

Ok, Men die and leave the circles of the world and not even the Valar know what happens to them. That is in the hands of Eru. Elves do not die but their bodies can be slain and then they are gathered in Mandos if they accept the call or they wander Middle-earth as spirits if they don't. Those Elves that go to Mandos get Re-bodied after a period of reflection. Men and Elves do not have the ability to create their own bodies. That is something only Ainur who have entered into Arda can do. When they chose to "Walk Unclad" then the Valar or the Maiar are invisible to Elves and Men and can re-create their bodies at will. However, when a Valar or Maiar spend a long time in a body they become somewhat trapped in that body and its destruction causes a loss of native power. The Maia who this happens to is not destroyed but is significantly weakened. How much each is weakened is what we do not know and how many would be able to create a less powerful body (such as a stronger, long-lived Orc) is also something we do not know.

Saruman's spirit was blown away by a wind from the west.

Ainur do not die. They can be, and are, weakened in certain circumstances even to the point of not being able to take form again. However we are not told how much native power needs to be lost for this to be the case.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Jul 6, 2022)

Gothmog said:


> Ok, Men die and leave the circles of the world and not even the Valar know what happens to them. That is in the hands of Eru. Elves do not die but their bodies can be slain and then they are gathered in Mandos if they accept the call or they wander Middle-earth as spirits if they don't. Those Elves that go to Mandos get Re-bodied after a period of reflection. Men and Elves do not have the ability to create their own bodies. That is something only Ainur who have entered into Arda can do. When they chose to "Walk Unclad" then the Valar or the Maiar are invisible to Elves and Men and can re-create their bodies at will. However, when a Valar or Maiar spend a long time in a body they become somewhat trapped in that body and its destruction causes a loss of native power. The Maia who this happens to is not destroyed but is significantly weakened. How much each is weakened is what we do not know and how many would be able to create a less powerful body (such as a stronger, long-lived Orc) is also something we do not know.
> 
> Saruman's spirit was blown away by a wind from the west.
> 
> Ainur do not die. They can be, and are, weakened in certain circumstances even to the point of not being able to take form again. However we are not told how much native power needs to be lost for this to be the case.


I agree with everything here. Thanks for making a resource or reliable accuracy.


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## d4rk3lf (Jul 7, 2022)

Perhaps, when Balrog are slain (or any maia), they just fully enter unseen world, but can not exit and exist in the real world, anymore. 
Maybe, unseen world have 2 like dimensions - good and evil. WE have been told that ring wraiths are in the unseen world, but somehow in their own evil dimension... can't remember the exact name now.
(although, I do believe, since ringwraiths are just men, after the destruction of the ring, their spirit goes where everybody else from people go, and they did not remain in the unseen world).

Just my speculations.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jul 7, 2022)

The texts do sometimes give the impression of two separate "worlds" as in Gandalf's words to Frodo at Rivendell:


> You were in gravest peril while you wore the Ring, for then you were half in the wraith-world yourself, and they might have seized you. You could see them, and they could see you.



But my reading, anyway, is that the "unseen" (by mortals) world and the "seen" world are the _same world_; it's just that certain beings are aware of the totality. This has been discussed before; here's one example:









The Wraith-world: What's in it and can a living non-Maia live as a non-wraith in it?


I have heard about the Wraith world but only know that the Nazgul were in it and that Frodo and whomever else could used the Ring could pop into it, making themselves partially into it. Supposedly the transportation to the Wraith World happened with the lesser rings too. However, were just...




www.thetolkienforum.com





But there are others.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Jul 7, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> The texts do sometimes give the impression of two separate "worlds" as in Gandalf's words to Frodo at Rivendell:
> 
> 
> But my reading, anyway, is that the "unseen" (by mortals) world and the "seen" world are the _same world_; it's just that certain beings are aware of the totality. This has been discussed before; here's one example:
> ...


It would certainly be a plausible thing for Tolkien to speak about and put in his books given that he was a practicing and very traditional Catholic. Because of that, he would have believed in the spiritual world of angels, saints, and God. He would have believed that there was an entire spiritual aspect to the world, and that though things were unseen, they still existed.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jul 7, 2022)

Yes. A parallel would be, say, how we see flowers, in contrast with how bees see them.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Jul 7, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Yes. A parallel would be, say, how we see flowers, in contrast with how bees see them.
> View attachment 14328


Good parallel to describe it, I would imagine this is much the same. Since obviously, it isn't like a different world, it is just unseen aspects (still existing) in our world.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jul 7, 2022)

Here's another thread touching on the subject:









Invibility mechanics, what if a bearer of the One ring died using it ?


Hello all ! I was watching the Hobbit just now and asked myself a question during the scene where Bilbo go through Dale to warn Thorin and his kin of the arrival of the forces of Gundabad. Bilbo wears the ring and dodge orcs weapon swings while invisible. My question was : "what if he takes a...




www.thetolkienforum.com


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Jul 7, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Here's another thread touching on the subject:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks. I will have to check this out.


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## Gothmog (Jul 7, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> Perhaps, when Balrog are slain (or any maia), they just fully enter unseen world, but can not exit and exist in the real world, anymore.
> Maybe, unseen world have 2 like dimensions - good and evil. WE have been told that ring wraiths are in the unseen world, but somehow in their own evil dimension... can't remember the exact name now.
> (although, I do believe, since ringwraiths are just men, after the destruction of the ring, their spirit goes where everybody else from people go, and they did not remain in the unseen world).
> 
> Just my speculations.


It is not really as simple as "Balrog is killed = Balrog finished". With any Maia the body is not the same as with Elves or Men, and it is possible for a Maia to create or "un-create" (for want of a better term) a body at will. The longer that they wear a body the more attached they become to it. When their body is killed by external force then the is some damage done to the Maia, the longer the body is worn the more damage it's destruction causes. What is not certain is how much damage was done when the Balrogs we know about were killed and therefore we also do not know about the possibility of them taking physical form again.

As for the Seen and Un-seen, there are not two separate worlds as the Wraiths can interact with everyone else and vice-versa. It is simply a way of talking about different levels or types of perception



Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Yes. A parallel would be, say, how we see flowers, in contrast with how bees see them.
> View attachment 14328


This shows one level of difference while if taken further you get to the point that the flowers are visible to one group and completely invisible to another group.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jul 7, 2022)

Gothmog said:


> This shows one level of difference while if taken further you get to the point that the flowers are visible to one group and completely invisible to another group.


Quite true, and partly explains their use of cloaks -- though there are also other reasons for them.

Not that I'm comparing Nazgul to flowers! 😳


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## Gothmog (Jul 7, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Quite true, and partly explains their use of cloaks -- though there are also other reasons for them.
> 
> Not that I'm comparing Nazgul to flowers! 😳


Corpse Flower?


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## d4rk3lf (Jul 7, 2022)

Gothmog said:


> It is not really as simple as "Balrog is killed = Balrog finished". With any Maia the body is not the same as with Elves or Men, and it is possible for a Maia to create or "un-create" (for want of a better term) a body at will. The longer that they wear a body the more attached they become to it. When their body is killed by external force then the is some damage done to the Maia, the longer the body is worn the more damage it's destruction causes. What is not certain is how much damage was done when the Balrogs we know about were killed and therefore we also do not know about the possibility of them taking physical form again.


That may be. 

I am also thinking of this possibility: 
Maia's maybe have like these options. 
1) To have a definitive body that they will permanently keep, and can not change (Balrogs, maybe Melian) 
pros: They are among strongest being on Middle Earth 
cons: If you die - you die 
2) To have much weaker bodies, but can shapeshift (like Sauron) 
pros: Ability to reincarnate in new body several times 
cons: Not so strong 
-----------------------

But then again,. it might be that shapeshifting ability of Sauron is just something that he is naturally given, and that Balrogs don't have that gift.


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## Gothmog (Jul 7, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> That may be.
> 
> I am also thinking of this possibility:
> Maia's maybe have like these options.
> ...


You are not completely off track. All Valar and Maiar can create a body and shift shape. It is not a question of having the option to create a permanent body or a temporary body. The longer that The Vala or Maia inhabited a body the harder it became to change and the more damage if it was destroyed. Valar and Maiar are not bound by the body and cannot Die, if they are weakened enough they can no longer create a body and are left as a spirit unable to affect the material world.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jul 7, 2022)

Tolkien addresses the process in at least one letter. I'll try to find it later.


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## d4rk3lf (Jul 7, 2022)

Gothmog said:


> The longer that The Vala or Maia inhabited a body the harder it became to change and the more damage if it was destroyed.



But how you explain, YOU were not been able to reincarnate when Ecthelion jumped on you, and you fell with him?  
It was in the First Age, pretty early, during the siege of Gondolin. 


Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Tolkien addresses the process in at least one letter. I'll try to find it later.


Awesome, and thanks. 
Looking forward to it.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jul 7, 2022)

There's something in Letter 200. I'm too lazy to type it all out, so will make do with a screenshot:



I hope that's readable.


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## Gothmog (Jul 7, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> But how you explain, YOU were not been able to reincarnate when Ecthelion jumped on you, and you fell with him?
> It was in the First Age, pretty early, during the siege of Gondolin.
> 
> Awesome, and thanks.
> Looking forward to it.


I wrote this 3 hours ago but it did not post for some reason so some of it is covered in the letter that Squint-eyed Southerner kindly found and posted 

This is the very question we are debating. How much damage is done when a long-used body is destroyed and what type of body could then be created by the weakened Maia (if any).

I have already mentioned a theory that was put forward by others that weakened Maiar such as the Balrogs who were killed becoming the stronger, long-lived orcs that seem to be in the stories.

It is also possible that while Maiar cannot actually die, the amount of damage done could be enough to prevent reincarnation and therefore they would be simply a spirit roaming Arda.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Jul 7, 2022)

Gothmog said:


> I wrote this 3 hours ago but it did not post for some reason so some of it is covered in the letter that Squint-eyed Southerner kindly found and posted
> 
> This is the very question we are debating. How much damage is done when a long-used body is destroyed and what type of body could then be created by the weakened Maia (if any).
> 
> ...


Your explanation of a spiritual world, (or was it you?) seemed highly plausible to me, however I need to read that letter now, so that I don't speak without knowledge.


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## Gothmog (Jul 7, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Your explanation of a spiritual world, (or was it you?) seemed highly plausible to me, however I need to read that letter now, so that I don't speak without knowledge.


I believe the explanation was in a couple of posts mainly from Squint-eyed Southerner and myself.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Jul 7, 2022)

Gothmog said:


> I believe the explanation was in a couple of posts mainly from Squint-eyed Southerner and myself.


Thanks! I see that now. It was a great explanation from you both.


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## Starbrow (Jul 7, 2022)

In The Nature of Middle-Earth, p. 209-210, Tolkien writes about the use of a body, _hroar, _by the Valar and Maiar. I won't quote it all, but I think this is relevant to the discussion.
"...if a "spirit" uses a _hroa _for the furtherance of its personal purposes, or (still more) for the enjoyment of bodily faculties, it finds in increasingly difficult to operate without the_ hroa. _The things that are most binding are those that in the Incarnate have to do with the life of the _hroa _itself, its sustenance and its propagation. Thus eating and drinking are binding...Most binding is begetting or conceiving."

I think the ability to destroy a balrog would partly depend on how much it had used its _hroa _before its body was killed.


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## d4rk3lf (Jul 7, 2022)

Good quote, and it confirms what Gothmog said.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Jul 8, 2022)

Starbrow said:


> In The Nature of Middle-Earth, p. 209-210, Tolkien writes about the use of a body, _hroar, _by the Valar and Maiar. I won't quote it all, but I think this is relevant to the discussion.
> "...if a "spirit" uses a _hroa _for the furtherance of its personal purposes, or (still more) for the enjoyment of bodily faculties, it finds in increasingly difficult to operate without the_ hroa. _The things that are most binding are those that in the Incarnate have to do with the life of the _hroa _itself, its sustenance and its propagation. Thus eating and drinking are binding...Most binding is begetting or conceiving."
> 
> I think the ability to destroy a balrog would partly depend on how much it had used its _hroa _before its body was killed.


It confirms what Gothmog said indeed, but I trust it far more now, obviously because Tolkien wrote it.


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## Aldarion (Jul 8, 2022)

Turin_Turambar said:


> A balrog vs a dragon.
> 
> 
> Originally posted by mr underhill dragon could beat a balrog anyday! yer sooo wrong.... balrogs are made of fire and shadow, here is an example... In the hobbit, Bard killed Smaug, it was a great shot... but one man still killed him, and it wasn't exactly real well planned. But in the...
> ...


That depends on which balrogs. If we go with "horde of Balrogs" and "one Edain can slaughter 70 of them", then dragons are definitely stronger. But if we assume that Balrogs are Maiar, and go with "only seven balrogs" idea, then Balrogs might be stronger.


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## Gothmog (Jul 8, 2022)

Aldarion said:


> That depends on which balrogs. If we go with "horde of Balrogs" and "one Edain can slaughter 70 of them", then dragons are definitely stronger. But if we assume that Balrogs are Maiar, and go with "only seven balrogs" idea, then Balrogs might be stronger.


I think that we can trust the words of Legolas to Galadriel in this matter:


> 'It was a Balrog of Morgoth,' said Legolas; `of all elf-banes the most deadly, save the One who sits in the Dark Tower.'


The weaker Balrogs that came in hoards would not have had that effect on him. So I think that the less numerous but more powerful Maiar as Balrogs is the case.


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## d4rk3lf (Jul 8, 2022)

Definitely. 
Only the earliest version of Silmarillion had thousands of Balrogs, but later Tolkien decided that they should be much less, and much more powerful with his famous quote: "No less then 3, no more then 7". 

I think we can all consider the later version as canon.


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## Aragorn II Elessar (Jul 11, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Balrogs, being Maiar are extremely powerful and have great power that they draw from Melkor, their Vala. That is why I think that Balrogs have more power than Dragons. Dragons are created with power, and they have power, yes, but not as great as that of who created them.
> 
> Since Balrogs are Maiar, I assume, like every other Maia, they draw power from their Valie or Vala, and because of that, they are able to have strength as though they are one of the Valar, and knowledge, and wisdom, and guidance. Dragons live and fight off of their own energy and power, while Balrogs draw from the much bigger force of their leader; Melkor, I believe.
> 
> ...


How Melkor created dragons is unknown. Maybe he created it from the Maia race. Size matters. Because the bigger you have, the stronger you are. For example, how can a 4 meter tall gothmog harm an ancalagona whose wingspan covers the sun?


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