# What happened to Sauron after the ring was destroyed



## Úlairi (Feb 17, 2002)

I have read the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales along with Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit so I believe I know what I am talking about here. Sauron is a maia, we all know that, and the maia are undying. Gandalf was resurrected from the dead. So when the ring was destroyed was Sauron really killed? I would like to hear some views but I am pretty sure that Sauron still exists in the spirit world, but doesn't have the power to come back into the physical world. Would I be correct in saying this?


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## Beleg Strongbow (Feb 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> * I have read the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales along with Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit so I believe I know what I am talking about here. Sauron is a maia, we all know that, and the maia are undying. Gandalf was resurrected from the dead. So when the ring was destroyed was Sauron really killed? I would like to hear some views but I am pretty sure that Sauron still exists in the spirit world, but doesn't have the power to come back into the physical world. Would I be correct in saying this? *





You could be but i beleive that Sauron had passed a lot of his spirit into the ring and when that was destroyed so he was hurt and couldn't resume spirit form or pyshical form in M.E again maybe he is with melkor in the timeless void? It is hard 2 say.


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## Telchar (Feb 17, 2002)

As a Maia Sauron can't be killed, but his spirit can be deminished(sp?). So I don't think he was killed when the One Ring was destroyed, he lost so much power that he forever lost the ability to take on a visible and physical. He may roam the lands and poses living beeings, but that is probably all.


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## Beleg Strongbow (Feb 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Telchar _
> *As a Maia Sauron can't be killed, but his spirit can be deminished(sp?). So I don't think he was killed when the One Ring was destroyed, he lost so much power that he forever lost the ability to take on a visible and physical. He may roam the lands and poses living beeings, but that is probably all.  *




Yes that is what could have happened. He could also have been able 2 scare and influence people with like terror? I'm not 2 sure.


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## Gandalf 2058 (Feb 17, 2002)

According to the Silmarillion, it says that Sauron was utterly vanquished. I like this view because it shows Sauron finally being defeated and not being able to come back, although he may have been a spirit until the end of the world and not able to cause any more harm to middle-earth.


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## Arvedui (Jun 13, 2003)

From _Valaquenta; Of the Enemies_ 


> Among those of his [Morgot's] servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel. [...] But in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void.



This seems to indicate that Sauron does not die, but that his spirit is sent to the Void, where he probably makes Morgoth's coffee.


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## Melko Belcha (Jun 13, 2003)

The Letters of JRR Tolkien - #131
"But to achieve this he (Sauron) had been obliged to let a great part of his own inherent power pass into the One Ring. While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'...............if the One Ring was actually unmade, annihilated, then its power would be dissolved, Sauron's own being would be diminished to vanishing point, and he would be reduced to a shadow, a mere memory of malicious will."


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## YayGollum (Jun 13, 2003)

Uh, huh. So he now has the power to possess people?


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## MacAddict (Jun 13, 2003)

*If I may bring a little comedy to this...*

I quote the great game "Escape from Monkey Island" ~ "But as we know evil dead bad guys rarely stay dead (Espeacially in Comic books and graphic adventure games)"

Thank for reading, You may now return to your serious disscussion 


~MacAddict


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## BlackCaptain (Jun 14, 2003)

But Olorin was sent back to fulfill his duties. 

Sauron was not killed, nor destroyed. His physicalness, and all of his fear was gone; utterly destroyed. His Maia spirit was (as soon as he was destroyed via the One Ring) sent back to Aman (where all Maia go when they're destroyed in physical form) and the Valar would most definately not allow him to go back to ME in any form again, seeing as how he tried to take it over. He might have been sent into the void, I don't know.


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## Ithrynluin (Jun 14, 2003)

> His physicalness, and all of his fear was gone; utterly destroyed.



His fëa was not gone (just diminished), only his hroa was, and the ability to ever take physical shape.



> His Maia spirit was (as soon as he was destroyed via the One Ring) sent back to Aman



We have no reason to make such an assumption. Saruman was denied passage into the West (as is seen in the chapter 'The Scouring of the Shire')



> back to Aman (where all Maia go when they're destroyed in physical form)



You're confusing this with Elves, and even they can refuse the summons. The Ainur do not go to the Halls of Mandos, unlike the incarnates.



> and the Valar would most definately not allow him to go back to ME in any form again, seeing as how he tried to take it over. He might have been sent into the void, I don't know.



He might have been sent into the void, but since his spirit would never be able to take physical form upon itself, there would be no point in sending him into the Void. He was reduced to an impotent spirit.


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## BlackCaptain (Jun 14, 2003)

Agh! As soon as I saw you posted after me in this thread I knew I was in for some mass editing! Haha... Well anyways I'm not even gonna try and say any different. I agree with what you said...


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## YayGollum (Jun 15, 2003)

Yay for people not answering questions!  oh well. Got it. Let me see here. Was my crazy idea just too evil sounding or is there something that says evil spirits can't possess people?


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## Confusticated (Jun 15, 2003)

No Yay, there is nothing that says they can not. They can, or at least try to.


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## YayGollum (Jun 15, 2003)

Sounds way too scary for me. *envisions all kinds of Middle Earth leaders being possessed by Sauron* "Good morning, Arwen! How's Eldarion? Wait. Why is my kid wearing that crazy armour? And why does he have red eyes?"


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## Arvedui (Jun 16, 2003)

After reading your comments, a questions came sneaking up from behind and hit me in the back of the head:

Can Ilúvatar undo what he has made? Can he have undone Sauron and Saruman?


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## Ithrynluin (Jun 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Arvedui _
> *Can Ilúvatar undo what he has made? Can he have undone Sauron and Saruman? *



Even if he could, I don't think he would. He could have simply prevented Melkor from doing evil from the outset. All things have their appointed part to act out for good or for evil,but whichever it is it will turn out to enrich good and Iluvatar's purpose in the End.


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## Arvedui (Jun 16, 2003)

Then what happened to the spirits of Sauron and Saruman?
Are they lingering in the shadows, as minor evils spirits? Unable to take shape again, and just gnawing at their own spent malice?


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## Ithrynluin (Jun 16, 2003)

Why not? Sounds a good enough punishment to me. Either that or the Void!


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## Flammifer (Jun 16, 2003)

I have not read the Silmarillion but I have read a lot about the Maiar in posts from others, and it seems likely enough to me that Sauron is in the Void or just a lingering spirit. Bear in mind the words of Gandalf during the Last Debate:

"If [the One Ring] is destroyed, then he [Sauron] will fall; and his fall will be so low that none can foresee his arising ever again. For he will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in his beginning...and he will be maimed for ever, becoming a *mere spirit* of malice that *gnaws itself in the shadows*, but cannot again grow or take [physical] shape."

Gandalf says that "none can foresee his arising ever again", he does not say that Sauron will be gone, he simply won't arise.

Sauron will just become a *mere spirit* of malice, and will not be able to again take shape.


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## Khalid (Jun 16, 2003)

I think that in order for us to foresee what would happen, a good way would be looking at his prior downfall. Quoting from _AKALLABETH_:



> But Sauron was not of mortal flesh, and though he was robbed now of that shape in which he had wrought so great an evil, so that he could never again appear fair to the eyes of Men, yet his spirit arose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and a black wind over the sea, and came back to Middle-earth and to Mordor that was his home. There he took up again his great Ring in Barad-dûr, and dwelt there, dark and silent, until he wrought himself a new guise, an image of malice and hatred made visible; and the Eye of Sauron the Terrible few could endure.



So his physical form was destroyed, and he lost the chance of being able to produce a good a form, yet he had the ability to get a new physical form, a more alarming and malicious one, in a long while. 

However, there is a difference between the two instances, for Sauron still possessed his power in the first instance, and most of his power was destroyed in the second:



> And much of the strength and will of Sauron passed into that One Ring; for the power of the Elven-rings was very great, and that which should govern them must be a thing of surpassing potency;



Thus, my own speculation is that Sauron will still be able to rise again, but with less power, and a harder path towards causing malice. However, his power might not be enough to challenge the power of Men anymore after the return of the king.

Khalid


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## Ithrynluin (Jun 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Khalid _
> *Thus, my own speculation is that Sauron will still be able to rise again, but with less power, and a harder path towards causing malice. However, his power might not be enough to challenge the power of Men anymore after the return of the king.
> *



Sauron would *never* rise again. Gandalf hints so in the quote Flammifier provided and we also have this:



> _HoME X; Morgoth's Ring_
> Moreover, the final eradication of Sauron (as a power directing
> evil) was achievable by the destruction of the Ring. No such eradication of Morgoth was possible, since this required the complete disintegration of the 'matter' of Arda.






> _HoME X; Morgoth's Ring_
> Melkor was not Sauron. We speak of him being 'weakened, shrunken, reduced'; but this is in comparison with the great Valar. He had been a being of immense potency and life. The Elves certainly held and taught that fear or 'spirits' may grow of their own life (independently of the body), even as they may be hurt and healed, be diminished and renewed. The dark spirit of Melkor's 'remainder' might be expected, there- fore, eventually and after long ages to increase again, even (as some held) to draw back into itself some of its formerly dissipated power. It would do this ([color=sky blue]even if Sauron could not[/color]) because of its relative greatness.


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## Khalid (Jun 16, 2003)

Concerning Gandalf's statement, I would like to say that it is a mere spectulation. The Valar themselves could not foresee the back comming of Sauron to his evil deeds, we see that they did not bother much about him returning to Aman? They sent a messenger and nothing more:



> When Thangorodrim was broken and Morgoth overthrown, Sauron put on his fair hue again and did obeisance to Eönwë the herald of Manwë, and abjured all his evil deeds. And some hold that this was not at first falsely done, but that Sauron in truth repented, if only out of fear, being dismayed by the fall of Morgoth and the great wrath of the Lords of the West. But it was not within the power of Eönwë to pardon those of his own order, and he commanded Sauron to return to Aman
> and there receive the judgement of Manwë. Then Sauron was ashamed, and he was unwilling to return in humiliation and to receive from the Valar a sentence, it might be, of long servitude in proof of his good faith; for under Morgoth his power had been great. Therefore when Eönwë departed he hid himself in Middle-earth; and he fell back into evil, for the bonds that Morgoth bad laid upon him were very strong.



This, I believe that this statement by Gandalf can merely be an under estimation, and cannot be qualified as totally true. It might also be said by him to rise the hopes of the group, which is not something weird about Gandalf's style.

About the two other quotes, I agree that they show an extreme lack in Sauron's power after the destruction of the ring, and the '_(as a power directing evil)_' implies that he can exist without _directing_ evil. You do not need to direct evil in order to commit evil. Hence my '_However, his power might not be enough to challenge the power of Men anymore after the return of the king.
_'

And the '_because of its relative greatness_' in the third quote implies that '_(even if Sauron could not)_' is also relative. Sauron can rise again, with a very little fraction of his prior power, which still does count.

I am not saying that Sauron has the chance to be a feard Dark Lord again. However, he does have a good chance of creating evil. He is not totally gone.

Khalid


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## Ithrynluin (Jun 16, 2003)

I completely disagree with what you're saying. 


> Concerning Gandalf's statement, I would like to say that it is a mere spectulation.



A speculation uttered by one of the Ainur who would have a pretty good idea of what he is talking about.



> This, I believe that this statement by Gandalf can merely be an under estimation, and cannot be qualified as totally true. It might also be said by him to rise the hopes of the group, which is not something weird about Gandalf's style.



Raise the hopes of the group? That's absurd. These are Gandalf's words:



> _ROTK; The Last Debate_
> ‘Concerning this thing, my lords, you now all know enough for the understanding of our plight, and of Sauron’s. [color=sky blue]If he regains it, your valour is vain, and his victory will be swift and complete: so complete that none can foresee the end of it while this world lasts[/color]. If it is destroyed, then he will fall; and his fall will be so low that none can foresee his arising ever again. For he will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in his beginning, and all that was made or begun with that power will crumble, and he will be maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape. And so a great evil of this world will be removed.



So the statement in yellow is merely 'raising hopes' as you say. Then according to your logic the statement in blue would be frightening Aragorn & co. out of their wits? No, Gandalf the White, the wisest of the Maiar, is stating what he knows will come to pass either way. He is facing the the Lords of the West with the truth, for better or for worse.



> _Letter #131_
> There was another weakness: if the One Ring was actually unmade, annihilated, then its power would be dissolved, Sauron's own being would be diminished to vanishing point, and he would be reduced to a shadow, a mere memory of malicious will.





> I am not saying that Sauron has the chance to be a feard Dark Lord again. However, he does have a good chance of creating evil. He is not totally gone.



Being diminished to 'vanishing point' does prevent one from having even the slightest chance of creating evil, let alone directing it.

I'm sorry you refuse to acknowledge the obvious. As for me, I'll take Gandalf's and J.R.R.'s words as fact over anyone else's, if you don't mind.


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## YayGollum (Jun 16, 2003)

Yikes! No need to get snippy. Doesn't look like you would think that Sauron could possess anyone, scary ithrynluin person. oh well. Nevermind. What's all of this craziness about Sauron or Saruman getting to hang out in that Void place? I don't get where you people come up with that. It seemed to me to be that tossing Mel out there was a nice and specific punishment. Why toss boring spirits like Sauron and Saruman out there when they are pretty harmless anyways?


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## True_Twilight_ (Jun 19, 2003)

excuse me if i but in since i have not read all the works of Tolkien.

Though i believe that since the power Sauron put into the ring was so great of himself that he became no more like others said a shadow.

Though i do think he can be the influence of some evil in middle earth. since evil is never stopped no matter what.


What is a Maiar (sp*) ?????? 

i assume its Sauron but can anyone tell me in the depth Tolkien uses or close to it?


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## BlackCaptain (Jun 19, 2003)

I'll explain it as simply as possible. And though it may be 100% accurate, I'm just gonna talk in general...

God = Eru
Angels = Ainu
Ainu = Valar (Top angels) *Maiar* (lesser angels.)

Gandalf, Saruman, Sauron, Balrogs... They're all Maiar manifested in physical forms. 



> _From the Valaquenta; Of the Valar_
> The Great among thses spirits [Ainu] the Elves name the Valar, the Powers of Arda, and Men have often called them gods.



Now of the Maiar...



> _From the Valaquenta; Of the Maiar_
> With the Valar came other spirits whose being also began before the World, of the same order as the Valar, but of less degree. These are the Maiar, the people of the Valar, and thier servants and helpers.
> 
> ...
> ...



Olorin is Gandalf's true Maia form.

I'd go on... but It just says that Sauron and Balrogs too are Maiar, corupted by Melkor, who is Sauron's master... The most powerful Valar


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## YayGollum (Jun 20, 2003)

Am I a crazy person for believing that the Valar types were just the few that decided to have fun with their crazy creation and got the little title for being in charge? Sure, Mel was the most powerful Ainur type thing, but he didn't get the Valar title thing. oh well.


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## BlackCaptain (Jun 20, 2003)

I'm not entirely too sure what you're asking, but the Valar were appointed by Eru, and Melkor was a Valar. He forsook it though, forsaking only his title, not his power


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## Holly (Jun 21, 2003)

the spirit of salron still lives,so he does still agsist (probebly).


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## BlackCaptain (Jun 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Holly _
> *the spirit of salron still lives,so he does still agsist (probebly). *



The spirit of *Sauron* still lives, so he does still *exist*. 

And his spirit is what departed... It was his influence and the remnant of his fear that stayed in Middle Earth, but it is too weak to ever again wage war upon ME


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## YayGollum (Jun 21, 2003)

Sounds crazy to me. The Valar types were appointed? I thought that the Eru guy said, "Whoever wants to go, can go! Have fun down there!" and the fourteen dudes who got to be Valar went, Mel went, and all kinds of Maiar type things went. The fourteen dudes who go to be Valar got to be Valar because they decided that they would pay attention to the upkeep of the place. Mel was apart from those dudes the whole time. Anyways, where do you come up with the fact that Sauron's spirit went somewhere?


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