# Why did the Valar abandon men and dwarves?



## ZehnWaters (Aug 20, 2021)

So the Valar were mad at the Noldor after the Kinslaying but it seems excessively petty to condemn men and dwarves to be afflicted by Morgoth as well (especially considering Melkor was THEIR responsibility (they freed him after all)). The Moriquendi I can at least argue (they'd chosen to stay in Middle-Earth) but the rest? It just seems mean and negligent.


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## Alcuin (Aug 21, 2021)

The Valar did not “abandon” Dwarves and Men. And the Moriquendi did not include the Sindar, who though they never saw the Two Trees of Valinor (excepting Elu Thingol) were still counted among the Eldar, as were the Nandor or Green-elves of Beleriand, who acknowledged the overlordship of Thingol and Melian after repenting of their fear of the Misty Mountains, following Denethor son of Lenwë (Lenwë originally led them after their initial refusal to cross the Misty Mountains) over those mountains as well as the Blue Mountains.

In one of the earlier tellings (I cannot find it in _Silmarillion_ tonight: it must be in one of the volumes of _HoMe_) of the death of the Trees and the Hiding of Valinor, so that the Noldor were shut out, Manwë and Ulmo opposed the harsher judgments of their fellow Valar. Manwë set Thorondor the great Eagle to watch over the Elves and keep track of Morgoth’s actions, and Ulmo continued to communicate not only with the Noldor of Middle-earth (most famously in his dreams sent to Turgon and Finrod so that one founded Gondolin and the other Nargothrond), but even to Men, speaking in person to Tuor and providing him a guide, Voronwë, whom he spared from the storms of Ossë in order to lead Tuor to Gondolin.

In _Morgoth’s Ring_, in the essay “Notes on motives in the Silmarillion”, Tolkien remarks that because of his centuries-long war against Elves and Men,
​[Morgoth’s] ruin [of Middle-earth] was limited to the small (if beautiful) region of Beleriand. Morgoth was … actually _made captive in physical form_, and in that form taken as a mere criminal to Aman …judged, and eventually … _executed_: that is _killed_ like one of the Incarnates.​​Of all the Valar, Námo Mandos seems to have been the harshest: he wanted to kill Eärendil as a Noldo because he had entered unbidden into Valinor, and as a Man because it was forbidden for Men to set foot upon Valinor. Ulmo, ever a friend to Elves and Men, spoke against this, and Manwë sided with Ulmo’s position, giving not only Eärendil and Elwing a choice of fate, but extending that choice to their sons, Elros and Elrond (and laterally to Elrond’s children as well).

As far as the Dwarves were concerned, before even the Elves awakened in Middle-earth, Aulë made them “a tough, thrawn race” (_RotK_, Appendix A, “Durin’s Folk”) so that they could resist Morgoth and his influence. (They “slept” in Middle-earth until the Elves awoke.)

Oromë urged the Valar to bring the Elves to Valinor to protect them from Morgoth, upon whom they first made war and took captive the first time, so that Middle-earth had some millennia of relative peace during which Elves and Dwarves flourished. But I think their decision to remove Elves from Middle-earth to Valinor, instead of leaving them to interact with Men to teach and help guide them, was an error on the part of the Valar, one they – and to some extent the Eldar who completed the journey – eventually recognized. This realization is one of the half-truths that underlay the power of Fëanor’s speeches to the aggrieved Noldor that led to their rebellion and return to Middle-earth.


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## ZehnWaters (Aug 23, 2021)

Alcuin said:


> The Valar did not “abandon” Dwarves and Men. And the Moriquendi did not include the Sindar, who though they never saw the Two Trees of Valinor (excepting Elu Thingol) were still counted among the Eldar, as were the Nandor or Green-elves of Beleriand, who acknowledged the overlordship of Thingol and Melian after repenting of their fear of the Misty Mountains, following Denethor son of Lenwë (Lenwë originally led them after their initial refusal to cross the Misty Mountains) over those mountains as well as the Blue Mountains.


No, according to The Silmarillion any elf who didn't see the light of the Two Trees personally was a Moriquendi. You're thinking of the difference between the Avari and the Eldar.


Alcuin said:


> In one of the earlier tellings (I cannot find it in _Silmarillion_ tonight: it must be in one of the volumes of _HoMe_) of the death of the Trees and the Hiding of Valinor, so that the Noldor were shut out, Manwë and Ulmo opposed the harsher judgments of their fellow Valar. Manwë set Thorondor the great Eagle to watch over the Elves and keep track of Morgoth’s actions, and Ulmo continued to communicate not only with the Noldor of Middle-earth (most famously in his dreams sent to Turgon and Finrod so that one founded Gondolin and the other Nargothrond), but even to Men, speaking in person to Tuor and providing him a guide, Voronwë, whom he spared from the storms of Ossë in order to lead Tuor to Gondolin.


Okay but they're still letting their brother afflict men and dwarves. Morgoth is THEIR responsibility. They released him from bondage. They let him go.


Alcuin said:


> In _Morgoth’s Ring_, in the essay “Notes on motives in the Silmarillion”, Tolkien remarks that because of his centuries-long war against Elves and Men,
> ​[Morgoth’s] ruin [of Middle-earth] was limited to the small (if beautiful) region of Beleriand. Morgoth was … actually _made captive in physical form_, and in that form taken as a mere criminal to Aman …judged, and eventually … _executed_: that is _killed_ like one of the Incarnates.​


That he limited his ruin to Beleriand seems to simply be because that's where those who opposed him lived. It should also be noted that in the Athrabeth Finrod a Andreth that Morgoth was still keenly aware of what was going on elsewhere as he was out in the East corrupting men.


Alcuin said:


> Of all the Valar, Námo Mandos seems to have been the harshest: he wanted to kill Eärendil as a Noldo because he had entered unbidden into Valinor, and as a Man because it was forbidden for Men to set foot upon Valinor. Ulmo, ever a friend to Elves and Men, spoke against this, and Manwë sided with Ulmo’s position, giving not only Eärendil and Elwing a choice of fate, but extending that choice to their sons, Elros and Elrond (and laterally to Elrond’s children as well).


Jinkies. I liked Mandos, though I suppose this matches hid demeanor and purpose.


Alcuin said:


> As far as the Dwarves were concerned, before even the Elves awakened in Middle-earth, Aulë made them “a tough, thrawn race” (_RotK_, Appendix A, “Durin’s Folk”) so that they could resist Morgoth and his influence. (They “slept” in Middle-earth until the Elves awoke.)


*snort* can you imagine? Some elves wander into a cave and come across the sleeping dwarves. "What is it?" *poking it with a stick*


Alcuin said:


> Oromë urged the Valar to bring the Elves to Valinor to protect them from Morgoth, upon whom they first made war and took captive the first time, so that Middle-earth had some millennia of relative peace during which Elves and Dwarves flourished. But I think their decision to remove Elves from Middle-earth to Valinor, instead of leaving them to interact with Men to teach and help guide them, was an error on the part of the Valar, one they – and to some extent the Eldar who completed the journey – eventually recognized. This realization is one of the half-truths that underlay the power of Fëanor’s speeches to the aggrieved Noldor that led to their rebellion and return to Middle-earth.


Oh, I agree. It's clearly what Eru had envisioned for them. The Valar seem to have become complacent in their isolated realm of Valinor. They'd captured their brother, there was no reason they couldn't have come back to the rest of the world and restarted what they'd stopped, now with Elvish support. Eventually Men were supposed to show up and the Elves would have needed to return with them to the West anyhow.


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## Elthir (Aug 23, 2021)

ZehnWaters said:


> No, according to The Silmarillion any elf who didn't see the light of the Two Trees personally was a Moriquendi. You're thinking of the difference between the Avari and the Eldar.



I'm _guessing_ *Alcuin* was thinking (when he wrote that the "Moriquendi did not include the Sindar") of the description (Quendi And Eldar) in which the Exiles altered their use of _Calaquendi _and _Moriquendi_ -- the former term dropped out of use, except in written Noldorin lore, while _Moriquendi_ was applied to other Elves except the Noldor and Sindar.

That said, in any case my definition of* Eldar* hails from _The Lord of the Rings_ (author published text), not _Quendi And Eldar_ -- odd though it may seem, given the title and date of the work!

🐾


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## Alcuin (Aug 24, 2021)

ZehnWaters said:


> *snort* can you imagine? Some elves wander into a cave and come across the sleeping dwarves. "What is it?" *poking it with a stick*


Well, that would go a long way towards explaining some of the animosity between Dwarves and Elves.


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## ZehnWaters (Aug 24, 2021)

Alcuin said:


> Well, that would go a long way towards explaining some of the animosity between Dwarves and Elves.


"Is it an animal?"
"Do animals normally have such long hair on their heads?"


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