# Has anyone listened to this volume of The Silmarillion?



## Turin_Turambar (Aug 5, 2021)

According to the description on the page in the link, in this volume of The Silmarillion it says that he fought for Turin in the War of Wrath. Have you listen this volume? The description is at the bottom of the link I posted.





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## Ealdwyn (Aug 5, 2021)

That would appear to be the Martin Shaw reading of The SIlmarillion. But it says_ This fourth volume includes the final stories from the 'Quenta Silmarillion', _so it looks like it's not the whole Silmarillion, but just some of the stories.
I have that audiobook (the entire Sil in one audiobook), and it's a pretty good recording apart from mispronounciation of some of the elvish names.


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## Elthir (Aug 5, 2021)

Does Shaw pronounce _Maedhros _correctly? If you recall?

Just wondering 🐾

Elthir Unbanned



Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> According to the description on the page in the link, in this volume of The Silmarillion it says that he fought for Turin in the War of Wrath.



Ecthelion, by "he" do you mean Tuor (since he is mentioned in that description)?


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## Ealdwyn (Aug 6, 2021)

Elthir said:


> Does Shaw pronounce _Maedhros _correctly? If you recall?
> 
> Just wondering 🐾
> 
> Elthir Unbanned


Maedhros is not one I've noticed. But his pronounciation is a bit hit and miss, e.g. he alternates between saying Il-U-vatar and Ilu-VA-tar.
Apart from that I really enjoy his reading, he has exactly the right tone for the archaic style of the Sil. I recommend it.
You can listen to a sample HERE


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## Elthir (Aug 6, 2021)

Nice reading.
But yeah, a bit strange about Ilúvatar here.


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## Turin_Turambar (Aug 6, 2021)

Ealdwyn said:


> That would appear to be the Martin Shaw reading of The SIlmarillion. But it says_ This fourth volume includes the final stories from the 'Quenta Silmarillion', _so it looks like it's not the whole Silmarillion, but just some of the stories.
> I have that audiobook (the entire Sil in one audiobook), and it's a pretty good recording apart from mispronounciation of some of the elvish names.


And does the record mention that Turin fought in the war of wrath?



Elthir said:


> Does Shaw pronounce _Maedhros _correctly? If you recall?
> 
> Just wondering 🐾
> 
> ...


no, he's talking about turin, not tuor. (for war of wrath.)


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## Elthir (Aug 6, 2021)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> no, he's talking about turin, not tuor. (for war of wrath.)



The description I see refers to Túrin and Tuor and in my opinion does not necessarily say that either
of them were involved in the War of Wrath.

It's a very brief description to try to cover a chunk of history.

*In any case,* there's nothing in _Quenta Silmarillion, The Children of Húrin,_ or _The Fall of Gondolin_ that refers to Túrin in the War of Wrath. One has to read a note to a text called _The Problem of Ros_ to read about a prophecy from Andreth about Túrin with respect to the War of Wrath.

🐾

And by Ilúvatar's beard! 

Haven't we been over this before?


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## Erestor Arcamen (Aug 6, 2021)

Elthir said:


> The description I see refers to Túrin and Tuor and in my opinion does not necessarily say that either
> of them were involved in the War of Wrath.
> 
> It's a very brief description to try to cover a chunk of history.
> ...


Would you like to go back to discussing Khamûl instead? 😁


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## Elthir (Aug 6, 2021)

😂



Erestor Arcamen said:


> Would you like to go back to discussing Khamûl instead? 😁



Hmm. I'll have to think about that. Novak I need you again!






Helps me think.


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## Turin_Turambar (Aug 6, 2021)

Elthir said:


> The description I see refers to Túrin and Tuor and in my opinion does not necessarily say that either
> of them were involved in the War of Wrath.
> 
> It's a very brief description to try to cover a chunk of history.
> ...


Without specifying a name or subject, he said about someone that he finally joins the war of wrath.


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## Elthir (Aug 6, 2021)

*Ecthelion*

As far as I'm aware, there is currently only one known Tolkien-written reference to the prophecy of Andreth that concerns Túrin and the War of Wrath. It's referred to in a note to a text called *The Problem of ROS* -- a text some folks might not even bother to read because it's somewhat linguistic in nature.

Also, Tolkien wrote* "most of this fails" *on this text because a main idea in it was rendered invalid in his own opinion, as he realized he'd already published something else about a word _ros_ in his books (see *Cair Andros* for example, in _The Lord of the Rings_). I say "a" word _ros_ here on purpose, but I won't go into that matter for now.

And I know of no other text that refers to Túrin fighting in the War of Wrath -- *I'll add "so far" *given that there's a new book soon to be published called _The Nature of Middle-Earth_, which contains more
of Tolkien's writings.

Also, even if someone thinks that Andreth's prophecy must come true -- and thus might then claim 
that Túrin returned to fight Ancalagon in the War of Wrath -- that would not be the same as reading
a Tolkien-written description from a particular story, of course.

And I'm guessing this recording does not include even a part of The Problem of ROS 

Also, for clarity, the bearded being pictured above is Eru, not me.

Not that you said it was me 🐾


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## Elthir (Aug 7, 2021)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> Without specifying a name or subject, he said about someone that he finally joins the war of wrath.



Maybe the issue here is "joined" . . . here's the description in question.

"This fourth volume includes the final stories from the 'Quenta Silmarillion' together with the independent tales of the heroes Túrin and Tuor. The outlaw Túrin Turambar leads the peoples of Middle-earth against Morgoth and the dragon Glaurung. *Afterwards, following the ruin of Doriath and the fall of Gondolin, the War of Wrath is finally joined* and the fate of both Morgoth and the Silmarils is at last determined."

That doesn't necessarily mean Túrin joined the battle -- note for example, this explanation from The Cambridge Dictionary: *"if armies join battle, they start to fight"*

In other words, as I read it, after the Fall of Gondolin, the War of Wrath began -- the battle was joined, meaning forces got together and fought.

In any case, not the best description in my opinion, although admittedly whoever wrote it is trying to cover a lot of ground, quickly. In addition, if these sources are the ones being read, they say nothing about Túrin fighting in the War of Wrath (not QS nor the independent tales of these heroes).

🐾


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## Turin_Turambar (Aug 9, 2021)

Elthir said:


> Maybe the issue here is "joined" . . . here's the description in question.
> 
> "This fourth volume includes the final stories from the 'Quenta Silmarillion' together with the independent tales of the heroes Túrin and Tuor. The outlaw Túrin Turambar leads the peoples of Middle-earth against Morgoth and the dragon Glaurung. *Afterwards, following the ruin of Doriath and the fall of Gondolin, the War of Wrath is finally joined* and the fate of both Morgoth and the Silmarils is at last determined."
> 
> ...


I understand better now, thank you. By the way, it is written in the middle-earth volume called Morgoth's Ring that Turin killed ancalagon in the war of wrath.


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## Elthir (Aug 9, 2021)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> ( . . . ) By the way, it is written in the middle-earth volume called Morgoth's Ring that Turin killed ancalagon in the war of wrath.


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## Turin_Turambar (Aug 9, 2021)

Elthir said:


>


My beautiful friend, I'm not saying this, it's written on the lotr wiki.
read trivia








War of Wrath


The War of Wrath, also called the Great Battle, was a war of Elves, Men, and Valar against Morgoth that marked both the end of the First Age and of Morgoth's rule in Middle-earth. It was the largest battle to ever occur in Arda. It resulted in the expulsion of Morgoth from Arda and the ruin of...




lotr.fandom.com


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## Elthir (Aug 9, 2021)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> My beautiful friend, I'm not saying this, it's written on the lotr wiki.



Well, you said this without referring to a source in post 13 above, and in any case, the page you
linked to currently contains a mistake with respect to Andreth's prophecy concerning Túrin and
the Wrath of Wrath.

This prophecy is not in _Morgoth's Ring._

As I say, it's in a note to _The Problem of ROS_, published in _The Peoples of Middle-Earth._

🐾

*Ecthelion*, more specifically, here is the incorrect statement (currently incorrect anyway) from the link:



> "A prophecy given in Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth in Morgoth's Ring gives the slaying of Ancalagon to Túrin instead of Ëarendil."


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## Elthir (Aug 10, 2021)

Just wanted to add that I did some work here before posting.

I didn't read Morgoth's Ring (MR) again, but not trusting my aging memory, I did check the index, and there are no index references to _Ancalagon_ in MR, and a relatively brief number for _Túrin_, all of which I reread quickly.

Keeping in mind that if there was a man who was obviously Túrin -- by not named by JRRT himself in the text -- or a dragon who was obviously Ancalagon, but again not named by JRRT in the text, the index includes editorial references by Christopher Tolkien.

And keeping in mind too, that readers of Morgoth's Ring would already be thinking that Earendil slew Ancalagon in the 1977 Silmarillion, so I can't imagine Christopher Tolkien wouldn't note this difference in MR if it was there, thus creating an index entry.

These things said, I can see why such a mix up might occur: it's Andreth's prophecy, and folks know about the text called _Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth -- _the conversation of Finrod and Andreth, which text does appear in Morgoth's Ring of course.

Add (as I keep guessing), a lot less people probably know or care about a text in which Tolkien is trying to recast an Elvish word into a Beorian word, and "failing" to do so! By the way there are two Elvish "ros words" with different meanings: the one in *Cair Andros,* and the one in *Maedros* . . . but as I can sense that some of you already don't care . . .



Also I'm wondering if "auto-merge" will just keep merging my posts!

And/or, if it will "auto-ban" me for posting three times in a row when one post could have sufficed


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## Olorgando (Aug 10, 2021)

Elthir said:


> Also I'm wondering if "auto-merge" will just keep merging my posts!


I seriously doubt that it has anything to do with "auto" in any current language (or even non-current one).
Think "MM" and you're probably much closer to the truth ..,


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## Elthir (Aug 10, 2021)

I automatically thought auto-merge 🐾

Wir fahren, fahren, fahren auf der Autobahn


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## Turin_Turambar (Aug 28, 2021)

Elthir said:


> *Ecthelion*
> 
> As far as I'm aware, there is currently only one known Tolkien-written reference to the prophecy of Andreth that concerns Túrin and the War of Wrath. It's referred to in a note to a text called *The Problem of ROS* -- a text some folks might not even bother to read because it's somewhat linguistic in nature.
> 
> ...


I am looking forward to the nature of middle earth book. Will we be able to download the book as pdf from the internet on September 2? Or do you currently have a pdf of the book?


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## Elthir (Aug 28, 2021)

> *Ecthelion Of The Fountain* said: "I am looking forward to the nature of middle earth book. Will we be able to download the book as pdf from the internet on September 2? Or do you currently have a pdf of the book?"



My hardback copy is pre-ordered and is hopefully shipping soon!

And I have no idea how soon people might be able to purchase other versions of (G)NOME.

🐾


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## Ealdwyn (Aug 28, 2021)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> I am looking forward to the nature of middle earth book. Will we be able to download the book as pdf from the internet on September 2? Or do you currently have a pdf of the book?


I think we already covered that here
https://www.thetolkienforum.com/thr...ature-of-middle-earth-book.29760/#post-544313


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## Turin_Turambar (Aug 28, 2021)

Ealdwyn said:


> I think we already covered that here
> https://www.thetolkienforum.com/thr...ature-of-middle-earth-book.29760/#post-544313


I was just wondering if the pdf of the book would hit the internet on September 2nd.


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## Elthir (Aug 28, 2021)

I'm going to "hit the internet" if my book is late!


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## Erestor Arcamen (Aug 28, 2021)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> I was just wondering if the pdf of the book would hit the internet on September 2nd.


I'm sure Amazon will have a digital copy you can buy. No one on TTF will be posting a link to a PDF of it if it's not a legal distribution from the publisher, the mods will make sure of that.


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