# An Opinon On Why JRR Quit Writing....And A Gollum Question



## The Necromancer (Jun 9, 2002)

If JRR had continued writing, (supposing he wasn't dead) Middle-Earth would come up with a disease I like to call Little Mermaid Syndrome. Like LOTR, the Little Mermaid was acculty good. Not that I'm comparing the two, so don't freak. Then it got drawn out, on and on, made more stories, and they ruined a good thing. JRR would have not wanted it like this, so he quit writing. Pretty weird about the Russian Sequal huh?.....Oh! About Gollum, which is the main reason you're here.(I'm talking to you YayGollum!  ) In the begining of LOTR, Gandalf states that Gollum is related to hobbits. Could this be? I don't believe so, because it took effect on Gollum right away, un like the hobbits. I think Gollum is of rater Orcish descent. Just a thought pondering The dimwitted Necromancer.


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## LadyGaladriel (Jun 9, 2002)

*I may get this wrong but ....*

here goes!

Goblins are a smaller form of orcs and Hobbits are a samll form of goblins.

Hobbits come from goblins. But obviosly a nicer form . Smeagol was a form of hobbit that lived in the north (NOT THE SHIRE!)


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## The Necromancer (Jun 9, 2002)

Oh...no I feel rather stupid. Thanks for the answer.


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## Elu Thingol (Jun 9, 2002)

Hobbits come from MEN not Goblins or orcs or anything evil for that matter.


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## Gandalf_White (Jun 10, 2002)

Hobbits came from hobbits. Not some other race. Gollum/Smeagol was a hobbit. He just got really skinny and slimy and weird etc. from living under the Misty Mountains for so long. Hobbits DO NOT have anything to do with evil creatures. Hope this helps.

GW


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## Gamil Zirak (Jun 10, 2002)

I believe Tolkien died with writings still in the work.

Gollum was a stoor which is a Hobbit. I'm interested to see, The Necromancer, how the ring took affect on Gollum right away.

_*Edited because I can't spell stoor!_


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## YayGollum (Jun 10, 2002)

First of all, Yay the J.R.R.T. didn't make any more stories? Is that what you wanted to hear? Also, yeah, Gollum is why I'm here.  oh well. Glad to let people know I can be counted on.  Gollum was definitely a Stoor (not store) hobbit. They lived more to the south (not the north). I don't see why there's any confusion. J.R.R.T. clearly states that Gollum was a hobbit. Sometimes I do say that orcs were elves, goblins are smaller orcs, hobgoblins are smaller goblins, and hobbits are just hobgoblins that became good and that's why Gollum always says nasssty hobbitses, but you can draw your own conclusions as to where hobbits came from (mine is the best, though). Also, to see why the Ring worked so fast on Gollum, see my thread in HOF. I think it's called 'guess what I got for my birthday'. It's the definitive answer, I'm sure.


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## Lantarion (Jun 10, 2002)

LadyG, where on earth did you concieve the notion of hobbits being related to Orcs, however distantly?! How ludicrous! 
I remember something about them being descended from Men of the Vales of Anduin, but nothing any less vague.


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## Leto (Jun 10, 2002)

Gandalf makes it pretty clear that Gollum was once a hobbit-like person (a stoor). His changes are due to long centuries under the ring's influence, living in deep dark places. Hobbits most certainly are not related to orcs. If anything, they are probably descended from men, somehow. Like we see in the story, they aren't included in any of the histories of the ages, which is why they're such a curiosity to everyone they meet.


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## LadyGaladriel (Jun 12, 2002)

> Gandalf makes it pretty clear that Gollum was once a hobbit-like person (a stoor).



In actual fact Gandalf only guesses that he is 





> I guess that he is of hobbit kind




And frodo gets annoyed and says 



> and to call that thing a hobbit



So in a way we dont really know. 





> Hobbits most certainly are not related to orcs.




And I am quite sure that i have read it . I will try to research where i did read it and get back to you!


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## Arda's Bane (Jun 12, 2002)

*whatchu talkin bout ?*

Hobbits couldnt be related to orcs for numourous reasons, least of which that tolkien specifies that they are a relation of ours.
And orcs are curropted elves and tolkien says that halflings are not at all like elves


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## Lantarion (Jun 12, 2002)

(Orcs actually came from Men, but that's not important)
I think we have now established that Hobbits did not descend from Orcs.


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## Gamil Zirak (Jun 12, 2002)

How did orcs come from men? I thought it says in the Sil that Melkor munipulated the captured elves into orcs.


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## YayGollum (Jun 12, 2002)

Sorry that my crazy theories have influenced LadyG so much.


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## LadyGaladriel (Jun 12, 2002)

Excuse me ....



But i have read it and I will find out where. people i know agree with me that they read it too. and Yay..... Your not that powerfull!


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## YayGollum (Jun 13, 2002)

Thanks for telling me before I embarrassed myself.


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## Theoden (Jun 13, 2002)

All I know is that Gollum died!!! 
YAY YAY YAY.
The whole book I wanted him to die and I was glad he fell into the cracks of doom.

I do wish that JRRT would have written more. but only because I wanted to cry at the end when it was all over


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## Gandalf_White (Jun 14, 2002)

Shame on you Theoden.  How dare you insult or hate Gollum.  I loved him.  He was sooo cool!


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## YayGollum (Jun 14, 2002)

Ack! Theoden you is evil (and I never liked your character  )! Thanks, G_W! You really know how to get on my good side! Wait, doesn't anybody?  oh well. Gollum is the hero!


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## LadyGaladriel (Jun 20, 2002)

*Reseaching still*

think of HOB goblin


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## Lantarion (Jun 20, 2002)

I have two words to say to you: far-fetched! Hmm, that's actually one word though.. But it includes two words, so stop sniggering! 
Hobgoblin is an ancient term from who knows how long ago, from before the Middle-Ages I would presume. Tolkien didn't make up the word 'hobgoblin' so it would look like hobbits came from 'goblins'. Long shot, but nice try. 
Gamil Zirak, Orcs did come from Men originally. Tolkien states so in one of his letters, and maybe in the HoME (I haven't read 'em, so I don't know for sure), that Orcs came from Men, but it was an idea that he finalized after writing the Silmarillion. AM I right? Cian?


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## pohuist (Jun 20, 2002)

Hobgoblins are small goblins.
Orcs (another term for goblins) were made by Melkor from Elves.
This was discussed in numerous threads on this forum before.


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## Gamil Zirak (Jun 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Pontifex _
> *Gamil Zirak, Orcs did come from Men originally. Tolkien states so in one of his letters, and maybe in the HoME (I haven't read 'em, so I don't know for sure), that Orcs came from Men, but it was an idea that he finalized after writing the Silmarillion. AM I right? Cian?  *


Ah, that's the problem. I haven't read the letters, UT, or the HoME. I ordered UT and the first five HoME books so I'm about to get started on them. What book are Tolkien's letters published in?


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## Tyaronumen (Jun 20, 2002)

I believe that the book may be called "The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien" -- but if it isn't, it's something reaaaally close!

IMHO, it is hard to view anything from UT, or HoME as Tolkien's 'final word' on anything, since these works are more or less amalgamations of unfinished works. Similar to this is the Silmarillion, even though it is in a much more 'finished' form, so it isn't quite as hard. The Letters? Well, some of them speak with undeniable authority, while others (the one on the Entwives comes to mind) were ambiguous and spoke to the fact that Tolkien himself did not know the answer (at least yet!).

That leaves all of us on these boards actually quite a bit of room to have differing opinions!

For instance, I tend to "buy into" Tolkien's theory that the Orcs come from Elves probably just a smidgeon more than the theory that the Orcs came from Men... 

This is not based on any keen evidence, and in fact if Tolkien had lived longer and had a chance to develop definitive writings on the origin of Orcs, it is quite likely that his later leanings that Orcs come from Men would have "won out" in the Silmarillion.

Further weakening my own preferred position is that the Silmarillion itself does not come to any great conclusion regarding the origins of the Orcs, but addresses them more in the light of a Quendi legend.

However, the Silmarillion strengthens my POV in that orcs were loosed into Beleriand *before* the Atani awakened... obviously this would have had to change if the orcs were going to come from men themselves.


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## LadyGaladriel (Jun 21, 2002)

*Getting sick and tired of researching*



> Tolkien didn't make up the word 'hobgoblin'






I know its an ancent term , I would prefer you to not be paternizing(sp)




Orc-Goblin-Hobgoblin-(some relative comes here )-hobbit


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## Lantarion (Jun 21, 2002)

Oh, I'm sorry if I was! I didn't mean to at all, forgive me. Not everybody is familiar with some words, and I obviously misjudged your knowledge on the subject. Sorry again. 
I also like the idea of Elves becoming Orcs. I suppose it's just because it's what the Sil says, and because it's the only 'theory' to which I have seen viable evidence. Men becoming Orcs would be a bit more ideological and allegorical, depending on your view, but I think the Elf-theory is better. 'Ultimate' evil sprouting from 'ultimate' good, and all.


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## CyberGhostface (Jun 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Theoden _
> *All I know is that Gollum died!!!
> YAY YAY YAY.
> The whole book I wanted him to die and I was glad he fell into the cracks of doom.
> ...



I hope YOU fall into the cracks of doom...


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## Gandalf_White (Jun 23, 2002)

Ha! I totally aggree with CyberGhostface. GO FALL IN THEODEN!


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## Aranaug (Jun 25, 2002)

"Thus it was that when the Nahar neighted and Orome indeed came among them, some of the Quendi hid themselves, and some fled and were lost. But those that had courage, and stayed, percieved swiftly that the Great Rider was no shape out of darkness; for the light of Aman was in is face, and all the noblest of the Elves were drawn toward it.

But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is know of a certainty. For who of the living has descended into the pits of Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor? Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressea, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the ELves, of whom they were the bitterest of foes."
-Of the Coming of the Elves, The Silmarillion.


"Long after, but still very long ago, there lived by the banks of the Great River on the edge of Wilderland a clever-handed and qiet-footed little people. I guess they were of hobbit-kind; akin to the fathers of the fathers of the Stoors for they loved the River, and often swam in it, or made little boats of reeds."...

..."I can't believe that Gollum was connected with hobbits, however distantly," said Frodo with some heat. "What an abominable notion!"

"It is true all the same," replied Gandalf. "About their origins, at any rate, I know more than hobbits do themselves. And even Bilbo's story suggests the kinship. There was a great deal in the background of their minds and memories that was very similar. They understood one another remarkably well, very much better than a hobbit would understand, a Dward, or an Orc, or even an Elf. Think of the riddles they both knew, for one thing."

"Yes," said Frodo. "Though other folk besides hobbitsask riddles, and much of the same sort. And hobbits don't cheat. Gollum meant to cheat all the time. He war just trying to put poor Bilbo off his guard. And I daresay it amused his wickedness to start a might end in providing him with an easy victim, but if he lost would not hurt him."

"Only too true, I fear," said Gandalf. "But there was something else in it, I think, which you don't see yet. Even Gollum was not wholly ruined. He had proved tougher than even one of the Wise would have guessed-as a hobbit might."


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## Tyaronumen (Jun 25, 2002)

I always did think that Frodo's little "Hobbit's don't cheat" line was an extremely tepid and unoriginal thought, based upon romantic and foolish notions. 

No -- Hobbit's don't cheat, Frodo! They just invite in Sharkey and his men to tear up the place and screw over the entire Shire! Much better, right?


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## YayGollum (Jun 25, 2002)

Yay Aranaug! Yay for defending Gollum! Yay Gollum = the epitome of hobbit strength! Ummm...what else were we talking about?


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## Xanaphia (Jul 10, 2002)

*To answer your first question...*

J.R.R. Tolkien didn't stop writing until he died. He had finished the first chapter of a sequall to LOTR called 'The Return of the Shadow" and then he died. But I think his son, Christopher Tolkien, finished the book because now you can buy it.


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## Ithrynluin (Jul 10, 2002)

*Re: To answer your first question...*



> _Originally posted by Xanaphia _
> *J.R.R. Tolkien didn't stop writing until he died. He had finished the first chapter of a sequall to LOTR called 'The Return of the Shadow" and then he died. But I think his son, Christopher Tolkien, finished the book because now you can buy it. *



Xanaphia, are you sure that this is a sequel to the LOTR? One of the History of ME books(#6) is titled "The return of the shadow". Besides,I doubt that Christopher Tolkien would actually continue a book of his father's - it would be a bit silly.


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## Flame of Anor (Jul 10, 2002)

*What!?!?*

What is up with all of this nonsence that Orcs came from Men? That does not make any sence to me! First off, in the Sil (I forget where, most likely in the begining somewhere) it says that Melkor captured some the the Elves, as they made their way to Valinor, and tortured them and made them into the foul race of Orcs. Second, the Orcs were around long before Men showed up on the scene. My reason for this is that the Elves fought against the Orcs when the Noldor came back to ME, and fought against the Orcs for centuries before the coming of Men.

-Flame

P.S. I think it would not have detracted from the story or make it worse(if that is possible) like the Little Mermaid Syndrome that The Necromancer talked about.


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## Theoden (Jul 11, 2002)

*Defending myself*

I am back and I am here to tell all of you that you have demented minds if you have any simpathy for what happened to Gollum. He got what was coming to himm and he got what he asked for. There is no way that I think he should not have been in the story, but he is really sneaky and mean and an ugly, green, back-stabbing, fish eating half starved hobbit who deserved to be put down... I guess he did by fate. 

Thus, I rest my case. 

-me

ps.
I do not think that all of you gollum fans are wrong. Just confused...


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## YayGollum (Jul 11, 2002)

Yikes! Who said orcs came from men? oh well. Ack! I am demented, confused, and sympathetic? so sorry. Yay for Gollum getting what he wanted! Because if he didn't Sauron would have won! What's wrong with being sneaky, ugly, green, back-stabbing, or fish-eating? He wasn't mean. He was pitiable. Yay for fate, too! Without it Gollum wouldn't have been the hero!


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## Uminya (Jul 13, 2002)

LadyGaladriel, take my word for it, Hobbits are not descended from Goblins/Orcs, nor are they vice versa.

Hobbits are said to be related to Men, thought I don't recall them being actually descended from men...mainly because there is a reference that the lines of hobbits and men merged at some point in the future.


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## Gandalf_White (Jul 16, 2002)

IMHO I feel so sorry for Gollum. He was do rejected, ignored and picked on. Poor Gollum. *goes to give Gollum an hug* *goes to chat with Yay about how cool Gollum was* It's ok that Gollum was sneaky. He did it cause he wanted attention. It's ok that he was ugly. We are not all beautiful. It's ok that he was green. God loves red, yellow, black and white, so why not green. It's ok that he was back-stabbing. Where would the story have been if he wasn't. It's ok that he was fish-eating. What the heck is wrong with fish. Theoden get over it. There are more Gollum fans than Gollum haters.

YAY FOR GOLLUM!


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## Flame of Anor (Jul 16, 2002)

Well then, lets make it official and see who all like Gollum and who doesn't. Someone should start a poll. Personally, I cannot say that I totally dislike Gollum nor can I say that he was my favorite character. And you are right Gandalf_White that the story would not have been the same if Gollum was not the way he was.

-Flame


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## Gandalf_White (Jul 16, 2002)

Ok I'm making a poll!


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## LadyGaladriel (Jul 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ciryaher _
> *LadyGaladriel, take my word for it, Hobbits are not descended from Goblins/Orcs, nor are they vice versa.
> 
> Hobbits are said to be related to Men, thought I don't recall them being actually descended from men...mainly because there is a reference that the lines of hobbits and men merged at some point in the future. *



So everyone who I know who have read it are Lying . They are not . 
I have read it.


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## Chymaera (Jul 19, 2002)

Gollum was a hobbit; of the Ted Sandyman varity.


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## Brent (Jul 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by pohuist _
> *Hobgoblins are small goblins.
> Orcs (another term for goblins) were made by Melkor from Elves.
> This was discussed in numerous threads on this forum before. *



Err I don't think so ..

'Orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds)' 
Preface to The Hobbit JRRT

Hobgoblins are large goblins and have always been so in English as well as Tolkien


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## Walter (Jul 19, 2002)

Anyone interested in the "Origin of Orcs" should read JRR Tolkiens essay(s) and notes on that matter, published in the HoME (Morgoth's Ring - Myths transformed; Chapter VIII).

Resuming what has been said there, it appears that JRR Tolkien's final view about the origin of Orcs leaned rather towards a "mannish" origin of Orcs than towards an "elvish" origin of Orcs, however the statements in the Sil where an "elvish" origin of Orcs is stated have never been changed by JRR or Christopher.

There are also a few threads out there in various sections of this forum, dealing with that issue (e.g. this one: The Origin of Orcs!


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