# Words, words, words. . .



## HLGStrider

Today I was reading a book with a lot of old language in it, and I came across the word Proem. I assumed there was a typo in the book and it was supposed to be poem, but I looked it up just to be safe.

Sure enough, Proem is a fancy way to say "introduction."

I love cool old words. They are fun. . .

Does anyone have any favorite, obscure words?


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## Lantarion

_Juxtaposition_ is one that I've had a lot of trouble with in the past. 
And I'm reading Hardy's "Tess of the d'Urbervilles" at the momoent, and wow.. Hardy's use of language is so beautiful, even more varied than Tolkien's at times!
Anyway there's a word which he uses fairly often, which looks really out of place sometimes; here's one sentence straight from 'Tess', page 56 in my book:


> Her mother expostulated. 'You will never set out to see your folks without dressing up more the dand than that?'


EXPOSTULATED!!?!!!


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## HLGStrider

I know one is supposed to avoid big words especially for the sake of big words. . .

but there are some that aren't big or complicated, I just like them.

Like HOWEVER. I love the word however.


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## Lantarion

Arg I hate 'however'..! Poeple use it so strangely, at the ends of sentences; like "I think that it might work, however."
The only time I feel that 'however' should be used is in the middle of a sentence, or as the first word of one. 

Hmm, I like many words.. Many not so much for their meaning but for their sound.. Like the word *detest*; the meaning is obviously not something I would find that appealing, but I just really like the way the word rolls off the tongue.


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## HLGStrider

For that, I like words like Weevil. . .


Are there any words/names, etc, that you purposefully mispronounce because it sounds good? I mean, I pronounce Subtle as spelled, occasionally putting a hard accent on the b, because I like it that way.


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## Lantarion

Hah, not that I can think of now.. In fact I'm a bit of a nitpick when it comes to pronunciation of English; some friends of mine say the word '*variable*' as [vur-aya-bl], when it should (IMO) be pronounced [vare-ee-ah-bl]. 
I actually like the way English words sound when spoken, even though sometimes I'm almost insulted by the atrocious lack of phonetic structure.. Look at the word '_wouldn't_. The 'o', 'u' and 'l' are completely unnecessary!! And yet I would never want to see English spelt phonetically..


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## Ireth Telrúnya

I think it's funny that the old English Bibles use "charity" instead of "love".
And all these "lovingkindnesses" and "woe unto yous" and the use of -th endings.

By the way...is "misericordia" Latin or Spanish?


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## Lantarion

_Misericordia_ looks like Latin, but I don't know what it could mean.. Maybe something to do with piety (_miserere_). It isn't Spanish, I'm fairly sure; but I could be wrong.. 
I like the -th endings! In fact Tolkien uses them quite often, especially in his earlier mythology-drafts. But it gets to me that people think they know how to use that type of language and then they just say what they think sounds cool.


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## Sarde

'Misericordia' is Latin and it means 'compassion'.


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## Eriol

"Misericordia" is the same word in Portuguese, only with a sign over the "o" -- "Miseric*ó*rdia". It means the same thing. I'm almost sure it is the same in Spanish, after all we just say our words with a funy-sounding accent in Spanish-speaking countries and everybody understand us .

The roots of the word are piety (as Lanty said) and heart (_cordium_). The same root, heart, can be seen in _concórdia_ and _discórdia_, with meanings that are probably discernible to the Latin speakers in the thread . 

(I had a nagging suspicion that the original Latin word is "misericordium", but I wouldn't disagree with you guys. You know more Latin than me).


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## HLGStrider

Yippee for other people replying! I was afraid this thread would just be me and Lanty. . .I suppose there are worse prospects, but more the better.

I tend to talk oddly a lot. I talk fast and weird. . .


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## Sarde

Eriol said:


> The roots of the word are piety (as Lanty said) and heart (_cordium_).



Not piety, but 'pity'. 'Misereri' is a verb meaning 'to have compassion with' (or: 'to pity'). 'Cor' means 'heart' indeed. It is 'misericordia' (feminine) and not 'misericordium' (neuter). Most abstract words are feminine.


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## Lantarion

Haha!! I meant 'pity', not 'piety'!!   Damn typos.
The word just reminded me of a pretty well-known phrase from the Vulgata (the Latin Bible, I think that's what it's called); _Miserere nobis_, basically 'Pity us'. 
And all adjectives in Latin have three basic forms, masculine, feminine and neuter; so they are probably _misericordius_, _misericordia_ and _misericordium_. Plus all the variables of those, like the plurals.


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## Sarde

Lantarion said:


> And all adjectives in Latin have three basic forms, masculine, feminine and neuter; so they are probably _misericordius_, _misericordia_ and _misericordium_. Plus all the variables of those, like the plurals.



'Misericordia' is not an adjective. It is a noun. The adjective would be either 'misericors' or 'misericordia commotus' ('moved by pity').


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## Lantarion

LOL!!! What an idiotic error to make!  
I really have to start re-reading my Latin books, I'm getting rusty!


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## Eriol

See? I said you guys knew more Latin than me! .

It is funny, but your typo was contagious, Lanty. When I read it, I translated it as "pity" in my mind, and repeated it without thinking twice. This is probably because of the root of the Portuguese word: "Piedade". Look how much more similar it is to "piety" than to "pity" . But "Piedade" _means_ pity. 

As for favorite words, well, I have some in Portuguese. Not so much in English. See what you think of "saudade", "nauseabundo", "fascinante", "sensacional"... these are just those which you might relate to in some way. If I add in some words with Indian or African origins, hehe, it gets more interesting. Such as "zabumba", "pipoca", "toró", "Pindamonhangaba", "Itaquaquecetuba", "Guaratinguetá"...


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## Sarde

Eriol said:


> As for favorite words, well, I have some in Portuguese. Not so much in English. See what you think of "saudade", "nauseabundo", "fascinante", "sensacional"... these are just those which you might relate to in some way. If I add in some words with Indian or African origins, hehe, it gets more interesting. Such as "zabumba", "pipoca", "toró", "Pindamonhangaba", "Itaquaquecetuba", "Guaratinguetá"...



Pindamonhangaba = peanutbutter? Hehe, prolly not, but 'pinda' is Dutch for peanut.


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## Eriol

You'll probably enjoy this:

http://www.economist.com/books/displayStory.cfm?story_id=2441549.

I'll get back to you on that, Sarde, I have no idea of what Pindamonhangaba means (!). It's the name of a town. But it is in Tupi-Guarani, the language of the Brazilian Indians.


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## Sarde

That link's funny. There's a website somewhere out there that has all the latest news in Latin. Something like CNN, but in Latin, totally cool. The Vatican has a newspaper in Latin. I tried to find it when I was there but I never saw it. Maybe only the Pope reads it? 

EDIT: That website was called 'Nuntii Latini', but it looks like it doesn't exist anymore. Here is a kind of mirror site: Latin news


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## Eriol

Pindamonhagaba: Place where fishooks are made
Itaquaquecetuba: Place with reeds that cut as knives
Guaratinguetá: White herons


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## Sarde

Wow, those are cool place names! Thanks for looking them up for me.


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## Lantarion

Wow really diverse and interesting place-names, Eriol! 
And LOL at that Latin site, "sushi bar" really cracked me up!  
Sarde there is a radio channel in Finland called Nuntii Latini which does the news in Latin, I listen to it sometimes.


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## Eriol

Hehe, I would open a new thread about it, but I think this is the proper place for reporting the discovery I made:

This word:

_Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious_

which I assume most people know or heard about (if not, it is a nonexistent word used in Disney's Mary Poppins, starring Julie Andrews and **** Van Dyke) does NOT trigger a bad spelling flag in Word, in an English (American) setting.

Isn't that something?


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## Saermegil

In English, I like these big, dificult words that come from Greek. I can easily understand those


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## Sarde

Eriol said:


> Hehe, I would open a new thread about it, but I think this is the proper place for reporting the discovery I made:
> 
> This word:
> 
> _Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious_
> 
> which I assume most people know or heard about (if not, it is a nonexistent word used in Disney's Mary Poppins, starring Julie Andrews and **** Van Dyke) does NOT trigger a bad spelling flag in Word, in an English (American) setting.
> 
> Isn't that something?




That is so cool!

Poor **** van Dyke, his first name is a bad word...


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## syongstar

*words*

I think it's funny that 'Muggle' is going to be added to the new websters dictionary.I wonder why "Biko" has not since it has become the word of use for the downtrodden.
I wonder why people say "I have no earthly idea" like where do their ideas come from?


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## Eledhwen

I was looking at this  list of archaic words, and found several I regularly use:

Aright, ere, fain, hark, hither/thither, ilk, nigh, and whosoever. Others I have used, but not so often. One word I use: 'ginnel' for 'alleyway', seems unknown outside of Westmorland (now south Cumbria), though it's in the OED.

I noticed in FotR film that Elrond said the Ring must be cast into the fire 'from whence it came'. Tolkien would not, I feel, have added the 'from', as 'whence' means 'from where', and only recently did people start adding 'from'. In fact, in the book, when Faramir enters Gondor and sees Pippin, he asks "Whence come you?"


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## Lantarion

Haha Eledhwen those words are magnificent! I also use a lot of them, at times, but certainly not on a usual basis.  And Tolkien himself used very many such archaic words, especially in his early writings.
Yes 'whence' means 'from where', so the 'from' would be redundant if used with it.. I think the phrasing had been changed so subtly so that poeple who did not know even this simple 'archaic' term would understand what Elrond was talking about.. It's the sort of dumbing down I've noticed all three movies, but especially TTT and RotK, practice commonly.


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## Eledhwen

I think my somewhat archaic vocabulary is the result of 1. my age (my parents and grandparents were pre-TV) and being a rural northerner. I grew up not only knowing the words to 'On Ilkley Moor bar t'at', but also knowing what they meant. I went to school in Westmorland (as it was then), where the remnants of a local dialect still produced strange words. A Westmorland farmer would begin counting his sheep with "Yan, tan, tethera, hethera..." and fireworks were the wonderfully onomatopeic 'fizzlyacks'. 'Look!' would sometimes be rendered 'Sista!' - a contraction of 'see-est thou'. Great stuff.


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## Lantarion

LOL that sounds absolutely enchanting, Eledhwen!! That reminds me poignantly of a book I'm reading, "Tess of the D'Urbervilles", where the native Wessexians speak a very fun (and probably real) variation of English.


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## Eledhwen

Now I understand all! I'm employed by the _Wessex_ Association of Chambers of Commerce.


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## Lantarion

Can anybody spell _coincidence_?!
Haha wow.. But I had heard that Wessex was a ficticious place, invented by Hardy.. Because I know there is a Sussex and a Middlesex in England, but I haven't really heard of a place called Wessex..  It does sound like it probably is a real place, but as I said I read from somewhere that it wasn't..

You should read 'Tess' by the way, if you haven't already, it's an excellent book.


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## Eledhwen

Lantarion said:


> Can anybody spell _coincidence_?!


Yes, you can. 


> Haha wow.. But I had heard that Wessex was a ficticious place, invented by Hardy.. Because I know there is a Sussex and a Middlesex in England, but I haven't really heard of a place called Wessex..  It does sound like it probably is a real place, but as I said I read from somewhere that it wasn't..


Hardy can hardly have realised the effect he would have. Wessex is not a political area, but is well defined as being hereabouts. We get our water supply from Wessex Water, and There are a number of businesses that use the name in their titles. Just run a search on 'Wessex' and you'll see what I mean.


> You should read 'Tess' by the way, if you haven't already, it's an excellent book.


Thanks, I'll get it out of the library. It will be interesting to see if it has colloquialisms that I recognise.


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## Lantarion

Wow interesting; I'll mention that in class tomorrow! 


Eledhwen said:


> Thanks, I'll get it out of the library. It will be interesting to see if it has colloquialisms that I recognise.


Heh there are a lot in the beginning, but other than that we only have Hardy's own incredibly beautiful and descriptive use of English.. There is one saying though, that some local drunk utters in the beginning: _"But Joan Durbeyfield must mind that she don't get green malt in floor." It was a local phrase which had a peculiar meaning, and there was no reply._
And words like 'projick', 'hwome', 'thy', and for "of it" there is "o't", like Shakespeare uses; and many many others!


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## Eledhwen

Lantarion said:


> Heh there are a lot in the beginning, but other than that we only have Hardy's own incredibly beautiful and descriptive use of English.. There is one saying though, that some local drunk utters in the beginning: _"But Joan Durbeyfield must mind that she don't get green malt in floor." It was a local phrase which had a peculiar meaning, and there was no reply._


I've not come across this one; but I suspect that 'floor' is 'flour'. O't is still common in the north of England. Others are gurt for great (gurt big fool). My grandad used to say "put t'wood in t'ole" for "shut the door", and I've heard it elsewhere with variations like "th'ole" (aspirated). I like to think it's from the days before common folk had latched and hinged doors.

Tolkien fans might find the connection between 'withy' (Withywindle) and 'willow' interesting. A withy is a flexible strand of willow for basketmaking etc.


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## Ireth Telrúnya

Eledhwen:
I've never heard that before, "t'wood in t'ole", have to remember it.
And flour for floor changes the meaning of the word in writing!

I had an assignment once to select to read some literature and Tess of the D'Urbervilles was among those. However, I chose other books then. Might be good to read that too, I suppose.

I like these long english words, though I don't know if I spelled them right..: 
extravagance
predilection
predicament 
supercede

well there are many others, and it's easy for me to get a bit confused by the meanings of similar looking words.


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## Eledhwen

The Oxford English Dictionary regards supercede as an incorrect spelling, even though it has been around since 16c, because it suggests a different root. Cede comes from the root of yielding (power or territory), whereas supersede is derived from the Latin _supersedere_ = 'be superior to'.

I love finding out where words with things like 'pre' 'extra' and 'con' in front of them come from. Predicament has shifted its meaning since its origins in Middle English (again from Latin). I am a total amateur at all this, but words do fascinate me (Latin _fascinare_ = bewitch)


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## Lantarion

Eledhwen said:


> whereas supersede is derived from the Latin _supersedere_ = 'be superior to'.


Interesting! _Supersedere_ actually literally means 'to sit above'; _super_ = above; _sedere_ = to sit. 


Eledhwen said:


> I love finding out where words with things like 'pre' 'extra' and 'con' in front of them come from.[...] I am a total amateur at all this, but words do fascinate me (Latin fascinare = bewitch)


The exact same applies to me! It is partially why I want to learn so many languages, I want to find connections and links between them, as well as appreciate their aestheticness by speaking them.


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## Eledhwen

I am hampered by a very poor knowledge of Latin - I had to choose between it and German at the age of 12 - so I am forced to rely on dictionaries to find any definitions. Still, the joy of the amateur is there. I come across Modern Greek words quite often, as I am married to the son of Greek Cypriot immigrants, and often find delights there too. For instance, 'symphony' is used to express 'agreement' or just 'agreed!'.


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## Lantarion

Haha! Sounds wonderful! Those kinds of idiosyncracies are really fun to realize and have as sort of 'inside jokes', I have lots and lots of them with a friend of mine. 
A new sort of hobby of mine, language-wise, is Swedish; me and a friend of mine have sort of started talking it very casually, with our limited vocabularies (and he's a lot better at it than me ). He also has a sort of mild fascination with languages (mine isn't quite as mild ), and often we will speak Cantonese, Swedish, Finnish, English, Spanish and Japanese in a single sentence!  I obviously know no Japanese, but he has taught me some phrases and words which I avidly use.  AndCantonese Chinese is a sort os passion of both of ours, because our kung fu style is Cantonese and all the terms are in Cantonese etc.


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## Eledhwen

I speak musical notation Italian and Requiem Latin, neither of which will buy me a cup of tea in Rome - whatever the era. However, the words I love best are those that have survived in pockets of dialect in various parts of England (and the rest of the world - Bill Bryson has been useful on American English). Words are changing and disappearing faster than ever now; CS Lewis' non-fiction titles contain many words no longer current, which is a shame because they are often replaced by more ambiguous word or phrase, thus weakening the language. 

The precision of language found in, say, the King James Bible is much higher than in modern translations, not least because of 'you' and 'thou'.


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## Eledhwen

I found this in www.effingpot.com:

The combination "ough" can be pronounced in nine different ways. The following sentence contains them all:


> A rough-coated, dough-faced, thoughtful ploughman strode through the streets of Scarborough; after falling into a slough, he coughed and hiccoughed.





> The verb "cleave" is the only English word with two synonyms which are antonyms of each other: adhere and separate.


A bit like chopping a tree down then chopping it up.


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## Lantarion

LOL that was a marvelous site!   
HAHAHAHA!!!!


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## Hammersmith

Eriol said:


> Hehe, I would open a new thread about it, but I think this is the proper place for reporting the discovery I made:
> 
> This word:
> 
> _Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious_
> 
> which I assume most people know or heard about (if not, it is a nonexistent word used in Disney's Mary Poppins)


 
Actually, _Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious_ is an archaic term from Victorian England used to describe a prostitute, or an experience with one. I'm in two minds as to whether or not Disney knew this when making their film  

I've had trouble with the word "doughty", not its use, but rather the pronunciation. I assumed (correctly) that it was simply used "dow-tee", though that sounded too much like "doubting" something.


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## Zale

Just to add my tuppence, I think that "prerogative" is a great word. Other good ones (but I wouldn't use them in writing):

Circumlocutory
Sesquipedalian

(As far as I know they both mean more or less the same thing.)

About Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious: where on Earth did you hear that? I'm actually shocked


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## Hammersmith

Zale said:


> About Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious: where on Earth did you hear that? I'm actually shocked


 
In The Times (London) I believe, though it could have been The Daily Mail. I can't remember; it was quite a few years back. It's the sort of thing that stays with you, though!


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## Zale

I know what you mean, I'll never forget that now.

Now is also the time to apologise for no worthwhile posting for quite a bit, but the workload increased dramatically recently, and looks set to continue that way  so not much time for writing.


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## joxy

One or two "matters arising".
I was surprised to find that anyone in England hadn't read, or seen in the cinema or on TV, "Tess of the D'Urbervilles".
Wessex was one of the old divisions of England, before England *was* England.
The name is still used, and was recently given to its Earl and Countess.
It was interesting to note that spell-checkers accept M Poppins' word, but the derivation offered is more fictitious than the book!
The numerals quoted as being used to count sheep are quite widespread and are probably derived from the common root through Celtic.
The Yorkshire expression is "put 't wood i 'tth 'ole", where 't and 'tth are variants of "the", and join with the following noun.
Film Elrond's "from whence" is just a typical PJ family blunder, not a deliberate sublety for the purpose of aiding ignorant audiences!


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## e.Blackstar

my personal contribution: eschew obsfucation


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## e.Blackstar

'whence' is a personal favorite, but I get very wroth when it's used uncorrectly.  *mutters* 'from whence' my eye


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## Hammersmith

joxy said:


> Wessex was one of the old divisions of England, before England *was* England.
> The name is still used, and was recently given to its Earl and Countess.


As an addition to this, Wessex originated from the divisons meaning "West Saex" and "East Saex", or various territories belonging through conquest to the Saxon invaders of Hengist and his successors.

Two words that I utterly despise as preposterous, pointlessly long and nonsensical are "ombudsman" and "fillibuster". If anyone uses those words around me, I lose a lot of respect for whatever they're saying.


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## HLGStrider

OH COME ON! Fillibuster is part of American history. JEFF SMITH FILLIBUSTERED! YOU CAN'T CONDEMN A WORD IF JEFF SMITH DID IT!

Does anyone even know what I am talking about? No? Shameful!


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## Hammersmith

Jeff Miller rings a bell...

What about paradigm? That's a cool word if ever there was one!


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## HLGStrider

You're British, so you have an excuse. . .Do any Americans here know who Jeff Smith is?


I'd marry Jeff Smith!


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## e.Blackstar

Sounds a tad familier but I can't place it. Who is it?


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## HLGStrider

The lead character, played by Jimmy Stewart, in Frank Capra's _Mr. Smith Goes to Washington. _Classic, classic, classic. . .Jeff Smith is marryable, which is the highest praise you can give a guy.


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## e.Blackstar

*smacks head*  

[sarcasm] Well gosh, how could I not have known _that?_ [/sarcasm]


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## Daranavo

I knew who jeff Smith was, however, I didn't want to sound so corny and admit that I did.


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## Lomin...

To whoever-said-it: I also like whence and thence, and I hate peopl ethat misuse them!

Words I like:

Asinine
Dissemble
Prevaricate
inamorata
benighted
grandiloquent
melliflous
kage (japanese for shadow)

I love words. 

Cool topic LG (that is what they call you, isn't it?).


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## e.Blackstar

Lomin... said:


> Asinine



excellent word!


(it's Elgee)


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## HLGStrider

I almost thought you insulted me there for a moment, Black. . .

If you take the spaces out of that phrase. 
"Asinine. . .excellent word!. . .It's Elgee. . ."

That's how I read it at first.


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## Hammersmith

Prevaricating and platitude are great words.


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## Lomin...

Then you'd probably like "asininity," too.

And thanks!


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## Hammersmith

I do. I've also decided that hyperbole and more specifically "hyperbolic" are great words as well. Unfortunately, I've stumbled across foible and milquetoast, both of which made me afraid, and then angry and then slightly sleepy and then gloating and then angry again.


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## Wraithguard

> milquetoast


 
I'm terrified to ask, but what is the definition?


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## Hammersmith

Clicky - Definition

To be used in a context like "a milquetoast proposal"


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## Wraithguard

Ah thank you. I shall now use it in everyday conversation.


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## wizard2c

Any words except "worst case scenario"....if I hear those words one more time.................I mean how do you define worst???.....

>>>i do thrive on words though......let me think about this since I have so many favorite words............


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## e.Blackstar

*dances around* Milquetoast, Milquetoast!

Awesome word.


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## Hammersmith

> **Edited by Tal**Please refrain from cussing, thanks**



I just ran across this little snippet in another thread.
Now, without undue criticism to the excellent Tal, "cussin'"? What sort of a word is that? Honestly!


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