# Judging the Secondborf



## Thorondor_ (Jul 16, 2005)

*Judging the Secondborn*

How do you think Eru judges his Secondborn (please provide a reason if possible)?


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## ingolmo (Jul 17, 2005)

*Re: Judging the Secondborn*

Just as a child's parent doesn't judge his child on how they live or what they do, but just loves him/her, Eru did not judge his secondborn. He just accepted and loved them, for they were his children. 
What do you think?


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## Gothmog (Jul 17, 2005)

*Re: Judging the Secondborn*



> How do you think Eru judges his Secondborn


Before answering the question I would like to take a look at what it means "to judge"

In looking at a dictionary I found this:-



> *judge* _n_. *1* a public officer appointed to hear and try cases in a lawcourt. *2*. a person appointed to decide who has won a contest. *3*. a peason who is able to give an authoritative opinion on the merits of something.
> *judge* _v_. *1*. to try (a case) in a lawcourt. *2*. to act as judge of (a contest). *3*. to form and give an opinion about. *4*. to estimate, _judged the distance accurately_.


Now I base my view on the third definition in _n_ and both third and forth in _v_

I have to say other as I think that Eru both judges and accepts unconditionally. He neither condems nor condones. Each person has a part to play in the continuing creation of Arda. Eru knows that both good and ill are needed in Arda to bring about the final glory of the creation. So any judgement by Eru would simply be 'To give an Opinion and an Estimate'


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## Thorondor_ (Jul 18, 2005)

*Re: Judging the Secondborn*



> I have to say other as I think that Eru both judges and accepts unconditionally. He neither condems nor condones. Each person has a part to play in the continuing creation of Arda. Eru knows that both good and ill are needed in Arda to bring about the final glory of the creation. So any judgement by Eru would simply be 'To give an Opinion and an Estimate'


Does this mean that, as far as the supreme being is concerned, the Secondborn can act with impunity?


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## Tar-Elendil13 (Jul 18, 2005)

*Re: Judging the Secondborn*

I think Illuvatar (sounds so much cooler than eru) lets his secondborn do what they want, but shows them the consequences of their actions.

TE13


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## Gothmog (Jul 22, 2005)

*Re: Judging the Secondborn*



Thorondor_ said:


> Does this mean that, as far as the supreme being is concerned, the Secondborn can act with impunity?


An interesting question. As far as the supreme being is concerned, 'impunity' does not come into it.



> _from The AINULINDALË_
> And thou, Melkor, shalt see *that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite*. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.


Ilúvatar did not even condemn Melkor who started all the tumoil within the Music. As for the Secondborn.


> _from Of the Beginning of Days_
> But to the Atani I will give a new gift.' Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest.
> But Ilúvatar knew that Men, being set amid the turmoils of the powers of the world, would stray often, and would not use their gifts in harmony; and he said. '*These too in their time shall find that all that they do redounds at the end only to the glory of my work*


Ilúvatar gave the Atani the virtue to add to the Music in somewhat the same fashion that the Ainur did earlier. So in what way could Ilúvatar punish any of the Secondborn for doing what he wanted them to do?


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## Thorondor_ (Jul 22, 2005)

*Re: Judging the Secondborn*

[Hehe, you should have participated in the "Who is the true villain" thread, we had a rather deep discussion about whether anyone in the creation or the creation itself exists independently of Eru]
In my opinion, the Secondborn are exempt from the consequences of evil-doing if they are in (conscious) communion with Eru. I don't think that Tolkien wanted his universe to be (completely) amoral; after all, he was a catholic and sin has a special significance in this religion.


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## Gothmog (Jul 22, 2005)

*Re: Judging the Secondborn*



Thorondor_ said:


> [Hehe, you should have participated in the "Who is the true villain" thread, we had a rather deep discussion about whether anyone in the creation or the creation itself exists independently of Eru]
> In my opinion, the Secondborn are exempt from the consequences of evil-doing if they are in (conscious) communion with Eru. I don't think that Tolkien wanted his universe to be (completely) amoral; after all, he was a catholic and sin has a special significance in this religion.


Unfortunately I did not pay enough attention to that thread. However, there is none in Arda (with the possible very notable exceptions of Ungoliant and Tom Bombadil) who could exist independently of Eru. Eru created Arda and all in it . The question should be if any *Lived* independently, or to put it another way, How far does ‘freewill’ go in Arda?

I agree with you as to Tolkien not wanting an amoral universe and also about his position as a Catholic. However, there is also in his religion the importance of forgiveness and redemption. In my opinion, the judgement of ‘Good’ and ‘Evil’ actions in Arda was done by the Valar. In Tolkien’s work we (or at least I) do not see Ilúvatar as the ultimate symbol of ‘Good’, he is too remote and unknown to his children, this position is given to Manwë as King of Arda. The judgement of the children is given to the Valar and the dooms pronounced by Mandos.

So the way that I see it is that for the Secondborn, judgement and punishment is only within Arda with the Valar. Forgiveness and Redemption is only outside Arda with Ilúvatar. For the ultimate glory of the creation, Ilûvatar knows that what we call ‘Evil’ is necessary. This is not an amoral view but simply that those in Arda, like us on Earth, cannot have the same view as one like Ilûvatar who can see the whole picture.

The Secondborn cannot be ‘exempt from the consequences of evil-doing if they are in (conscious) communion with Eru’ as they cannot *be* in communion with Eru. This is shown in Morgoth’s Ring In the 'Tale of Adanel'



> The first Voice we never heard again, save once. In the stillness of the night It spoke, saying: 'Ye have abjured Me, but ye remain Mine. I gave you life. Now it shall be shortened, and each of you in a little while shall come to Me, to learn who is your Lord: the one ye worship, or I who made him.'



The Secondborn suffer the consequences of evil-doing within Arda rather than outside.


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## Thorondor_ (Jul 22, 2005)

*Re: Judging the Secondborn*



> How far does ‘freewill’ go in Arda?


Interesting. Considering two of your previous quotes (no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite; These too in their time shall find that all that they do redounds at the end only to the glory of my work) I think that free will can be exerted only within confined boundaries, that is - the design of Eru, within Ea and within beings. That is, if free will exists at all .


> In my opinion, the judgement of ‘Good’ and ‘Evil’ actions in Arda was done by the Valar


Hm, I agree. I heard the saying that God forgives, but the Holly Spirit (or Shakti in other religions) doesn't. I am just curious how they would intervene to bring about justice, esspecially if the Secondborn only have one life; perhaps the halls of Mandos fulfilled that task, eventually. Thanks to our discussion, I am getting a much clearer perspective on this issue.


> The Secondborn suffer the consequences of evil-doing within Arda rather than outside.


 Yes; however in the case you quoted, I think that Eru actually made the Atani a favor, by shortening their lives, esspecially because Melkor was around.


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## Gothmog (Jul 22, 2005)

*Re: Judging the Secondborn*



> Interesting. Considering two of your previous quotes (no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite; These too in their time shall find that all that they do redounds at the end only to the glory of my work) I think that free will can be exerted only within confined boundaries, that is - the design of Eru, within Ea and within beings. That is, if free will exists at all .


This is the very point of the way I phrased the question, what are the boundaries within which freewill may be exersised 


> I am just curious how they would intervene to bring about justice, esspecially if the Secondborn only have one life; perhaps the halls of Mandos fulfilled that task, eventually.


I don't think that the Valar can bring about justice. Like all in Arda their viewpoint is too restricted for that. All they can do is Judge according to their view and Punish or Reward according to their ability.


> Thanks to our discussion, I am getting a much clearer perspective on this issue.


This is good. I too am gaining much from our discussion 


> Yes; however in the case you quoted, I think that Eru actually made the Atani a favor, by shortening their lives, esspecially because Melkor was around.


A very interesting point. One that I will have to give serious thought to.


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## Thorondor_ (Jul 23, 2005)

*Re: Judging the Secondborn*



> This is the very point of the way I phrased the question, what are the boundaries within which freewill may be exersised


Hm... first, I think that creativity is directed by Eru (or at least the highest forms of creativity); natural impulses, inherent to the human being, were also designed by him; at certain times, the Atani would hear a certain Voice (or something they would equate with the voice of their conscience), which could be more or less persuasive/informative; external/physical laws and at least the major evolutionary steps of Ea are definitely set by Eru, either from the begining, either during the evolution of Ea. Would you see any more boundaries?
[I think that most of what is left to the freewill is the witnessing consciousness - but its essence is also a part of Eru...; I think that we are talking about a game of unity and multiplicity]


> All they can do is Judge according to their view and Punish or Reward according to their ability


Do you think that, besides the hall of Mandos, they have other means by which they can reward or punish as they see fit? Perhaps "natural" events could qualify as their leverages... (or maybe even subtler events)


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## Thorondor_ (Aug 6, 2005)

*Re: Judging the Secondborn*

I find a rather relevant quote to our discussion in a note of the myths transformed:


> Every finite creature must have some weakness: that is some inadequacy to deal with some situations. It is not sinful when not willed, and when the creature does his best (even if it is not what should be done) as he sees it - with the conscious intent of serving Eru.


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## Telëlambe (Aug 9, 2005)

*Re: Judging the Secondborn*

This is a very touchy subject. As ultimatly you are asking how God (or equivelent in respect) judges us. and i think tolkien wanted to parallel this in arda. so both i believe are beond our contemplation. so i put other.

on a note more in coherence with this forum, i do not think all mortals were accepted unconditionally, as i suppose all those men who did not support the elves and fight on behalf of Manwe were (efter death) were sent down so serve the dark forces and Melkor in the final battle. and it is prophasised that Turin deals the death stroke and 'slays evil forever' Turin in my opinion (and a few others in the forum as previously discussed) was verging on the evil side by his deeds, however his intentions were pure(ish) so from that you could say that the atani were judged on intention towards the greater glory of Manwe under Eru.


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