# The Black Chasm?



## Ithrynluin (Feb 24, 2004)

In the Silmarillion we are told:



> _The Silmarillion; Of the Sindar_
> Greatest of all the mansions of the Dwarves was Khazâd-dûm, the Dwarrowdelf, Hadhodrond in the Elvish tongue, _that was *afterwards *in the days of its darkness called Moria;_ but it was far off in the Mountains of Mist beyond the wide leagues of Eriador, and to the Eldar came but as a name and a rumour from the words of the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains.


'The days of its darkness' part probably pertains to the awakening of the Balrog and onwards. The doors of Moria were crafted long before this happened.



> _The Lord of the Rings; A Journey in the Dark_
> 'What does the writing say?' asked Frodo, who was trying to decipher the inscription on the arch. 'I thought I knew the elf-letters but I cannot read these.'
> 
> `The words are in the elven-tongue of the West of Middle-earth in the Elder Days,' answered Gandalf. 'But they do not say anything of importance to us. They say only: _The Doors of Durin, Lord of Moria. Speak, friend, and enter. _And underneath small and faint is written: _I, Narvi, made them. Celebrimbor of Hollin drew these signs._'


Why did the Dwarves allow a rather derogative word 'Moria' (meaning 'the Black chasm'), to be inscribed into the entrance of the greatest of their kingdoms?


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## Maeglin (Feb 24, 2004)

My best guess is that it was used to scare off unwanted travellers, sort of like Iceland has its name to try and keep others away, but is really beautiful. We also must keep in mind that the Dwarves in general were not the most friendly of folk, especially when it comes to gold and riches, all of which could be found in Moria.


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 24, 2004)

I would think Moria was sufficiently secure from any attacks, and that it was needless to put a degrading name such as Moria on the greatest kingdom of Dwarves, as a deterrent to strangers. 

I daresay those who had the power to barge into Moria (Sauron) were well aware of the riches hiding inside (i.e. mithril) as it is, and those without the sufficient power (let's use the Dunlendings as an example) didn't need to be warned off in the first place.


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## Maeglin (Feb 24, 2004)

I didn't say that they were fearing any attacks, indeed I do not think that they feared any attack at all, such is the nature and pride of the Dwarves, they are rather big-headed. I think that it was simply to keep anyone that may have heard the name from visiting such a place, or perhaps if a traveller happened to stumble upon the door would read the name and turn back. The Dwarves didn't want any others coming near their treasure, be them friend or foe...anyway, that's just my reasoning.


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## HLGStrider (Feb 25, 2004)

My impression always was that this was an inscription in Elvish so they used the names the Elves used for it which was Moria because Elves don't like caves. 

No Elf would truly like Moria. . .The word probably sounded fairer to Elf ears though than the Dwarf word for Moria.


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## Grond (Feb 25, 2004)

HLGStrider said:


> My impression always was that this was an inscription in Elvish so they used the names the Elves used for it which was Moria because Elves don't like caves.
> 
> No Elf would truly like Moria. . .The word probably sounded fairer to Elf ears though than the Dwarf word for Moria.


The Fellowship was at Moria. Gandalf simply used the current "correct" translation for the ears of the Fellowship. Had he said Khazâd-dûm or Hadhodrond the unschooled member of the troop (Samwise, Pippin, Merry, Boromir & possibly Frodo) wouldn't have had a clue what he meant. Using the later name, "Moria", simply assured that he would be understood by all. I don't think there is an error here.


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 25, 2004)

HLGStrider said:


> My impression always was that this was an inscription in Elvish so they used the names the Elves used for it which was Moria because Elves don't like caves.


But Moria was first and foremost a Dwarven kingdom. One would think the Dwarves would get to decide what gets inscribed into the door.



HLGStrider said:


> No Elf would truly like Moria. . .The word probably sounded fairer to Elf ears though than the Dwarf word for Moria.


I'm sure no Elf would _love _Moria, but the Noldor were quite similar to the Dwarves in their love of crafts and gems and such, hence the great friendship between Moria and Eregion. I think the Elves would have great admiration for the architecture of the Dwarves. Galadriel herself passed through it and befriended the Dwarves.



Grond said:


> The Fellowship was at Moria. Gandalf simply used the current "correct" translation for the ears of the Fellowship. Had he said Khazâd-dûm or Hadhodrond the unschooled member of the troop (Samwise, Pippin, Merry, Boromir & possibly Frodo) wouldn't have had a clue what he meant. Using the later name, "Moria", simply assured that he would be understood by all. I don't think there is an error here.


Interesting, and quite plausable. Perhaps someone learned in the lore of Tolkien's languages could decipher _exactly _what is said on the door.

Take a look at this page. At the bottom, there is a translation of the Elvish script, and it clearly says:

_Ennyn Durin Aran *Moria*: pedo mellon a minno. Im Narvi hain echant: Celebrimbor o Eregion teithant i thiw hin._

I believe this is what is actually written on the door (in Elvish script), and Gandalf merely translated it into the common tongue.


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## Aulë (Feb 25, 2004)

Have a look at this thread:
http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?t=13809


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 26, 2004)

Ah, thank you Owly, I had forgotten about that discussion. It sheds much light, though not all the way through.


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## Lantarion (Feb 26, 2004)

Yeah I was just going to dig that thread up. 
This is actually a really odd matter, because the Tengwar text above the door reads "...aran moria", 'lord/king of Moria', in Sindarin.. Perhaps it should have been '..aran Hadhodrond', as that was its original Elvish name.
Hmm..


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## Aulë (Feb 26, 2004)

Well it's obvious: Tolkien stuffed up.
When he wrote that part of the text, he wouldn't have figured out what the chronology of events would have been by then. In his mind, Khazad-dum would have always been named 'Moria'. Obviously, he forgot to clean up that little error later on, as only nit-pickers such as ourselves would make anything of it.


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## Urambo Tauro (Feb 5, 2005)

*The Doors of Durin, Lord of Moria*

At the West-gate of *Moria*, there is an inscription.


> The Doors of Durin, Lord of Moria. Speak, friend, and enter. I, Narvi, made them. Celebrimbor of Hollin (Eregion) drew these signs.


Why does it say "_Moria_"? Wasn't the name "_Moria_" given to Khazad-dûm _after_ the dwarves deserted it? Why is it called Moria during the friendship of elves and dwarves? When exactly was this inscription made?


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## Urambo Tauro (Feb 5, 2005)

*Re: The Doors of Durin, Lord of Moria*

Whoops, sorry. I found a thread already made about this. If anyone else is interested, go here.
EDIT: I found another thread here.


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## Firawyn (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: The Doors of Durin, Lord of Moria*

*grin*

Well if you acomplished anything by posting yet another thread about that, you prompted my own interest in the subjct.

Thanks!


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## Greenwood (Mar 11, 2005)

*Re: The Doors of Durin, Lord of Moria*

I have been rereading The Silmarillion and it got me to thinking about this thread (and the others given in links on the same subject).

First, obviously the name Moria cannot have been given to Khazad-dum after the balrog appeared, 1980 of the Third Age, since the inscription on the doors states they were drawn by Celebrimbor and he perished in 1697 of the Second Age. 

Now we can decide that Tolkien merely made a mistake (certainly a possibility, no one is perfect), but it seems to me there may be a way to reconcile all the statements. The darkness referred to in The Sil could be the war between Sauron and the elves in the Second Age; the war in which Celebrimbor perishes. As to why the dwarves would allow the name Moria to be used on the doors, we must remember that this was not what they considered the entrance to their realm of Khazad-dum, the Dwarrowdelf. That entrance was on the other side of the mountains at the site of Kheled-zaram, the Mirrormere. These doors were the elves entrance to the mountains, a backdoor days from where the dwarves actually lived. When the Fellowship enter they find themselves in narrow passages. Indeed there are even guardrooms for watching the passage. Hardly what you would expect to find within the main living quarters. Indeed, it is several days travel before Gandalf states "At last we are coming to the habitable parts". The dwarves evidently didn't care what the elves wrote on a backdoor to the mountains, far from their own habitation. The dwarves evidently helped in the construction of the doors, but may have considered them primarily belonging to the elves.


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## Alcuin (Mar 12, 2005)

Greenwood said:


> [T]this was not what [the dwarves] considered the entrance to their realm of Khazad-dum... The dwarves evidently helped in the construction of the doors, but may have considered them primarily belonging to the elves.


I have to agree with all these points, including the notion that this may have been an error or oversight by the esteemed author whom we admire.

On the other hand, the Dwarves of Khazad-dûm were on exceptionally good terms with the Noldor of Eregion, and it is possible that “Black Pit” was tongue-in-cheek, rather like calling your friend’s expensive new Humvee “The Tank”. You might not want one yourself, but he might not be offended by the nickname.

Elves had a curious gift for foresight. They believed that the names of people said something about them, especially if the names were given by others and then assumed by the owner. “Galadriel” was neither the father-name nor the mother-name of Artanis Nerwen, but that is what everyone called her (except perhaps her parents). Perhaps an old nickname only became Khazad-dûm’s name in earnest after the Balrog was let loose, but it seems like a stretch. 

The picture is neat, though, and besides the maps, it's the only illustration in _Lord of the Rings_.


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## Greenwood (Mar 12, 2005)

Alcuin said:


> Perhaps an old nickname only became Khazad-dûm’s name in earnest after the Balrog was let loose, ...


Exactly what I was thinking. The history of Middle Earth is filled with instances of name changes for locations after a tragedy has occurred. When it is said in The Sil that Moria became Khazad-dum's name during "its darkness" it may mean that after the balrog came the dwarves referred to it as Moria, a name the elves had already given it. Certainly in LOTR, Gloin at the Council of Elrond and Gimli in Moria, both use that name. And when Gandalf reads from the record of Balin's people he also uses the name Moria as if the dwarves used it themselves. As I said, it is possible that JRRT made a mistake, but words and names were his profession; I would think he would tend to be fairly careful. There is also the fact that one cannot really attribute a mistake to JRRT on the basis of a conflict between The Sil (and any other of the posthumous publications) and LOTR. JRRT never had a chance to reconcile those publications with LOTR before their publication.


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## Hobbit-GalRosie (Mar 23, 2005)

How interesting.

I think I agree with that last theory. It's reminiscent of how the Shuddering Water was said to be ever called that after the shivering fit Nienor had there, but surely that's not enough to name a place after. Therefore one must assume that this renaming was not actually as immediate as the text implies, and the said fit was remembered after all the tragic events had occured and seen for the dark forboding it was. Something along the lines happening to Moria seems reasonable, called so first as a nick-name either in jest or prophecy then adopted as the true-name once evil befell.


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## Ingwë (Mar 23, 2005)

Moria was attacked by Balrog. The dwarves escaped because their leader was slain and they cannot fight against the Balrog. They can live there no more. They dig deep and maybe this is the chasm. But the name Khazad-dûm is still used by the dwarves. 
I agree with Greedwood. A lot of names of places are changed after some distress. Like Tol Galen. Well, its name in not changed after a disaster but afred Beren and Luthien dwelt there. 
I think the appear of the Balrog is enough to rename the mines.


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## Celebthôl (Mar 23, 2005)

Hmmm, seems to me that the Dwarves shouldn't have known any Elvish to be able to put it on the door. I mean its said its self:

_Greatest of all the mansions of the Dwarves was Khazâd-dûm, the Dwarrowdelf, Hadhodrond in the Elvish tongue, that was afterwards in the days of its darkness called Moria; but it was far off in the Mountains of Mist beyond the wide leagues of Eriador, and *to the Eldar came but as a name and a rumour from the words of the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains.*_ 

*`The words are in the elven-tongue of the West of Middle-earth in the Elder Days,'*

How if the Elves had never seen or come to Moria before, could it have Elvish words on it? Or is this just me being overly suspicious and picking something out of nothing?


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## Greenwood (Mar 23, 2005)

Celebthol said:


> Hmmm, seems to me that the Dwarves shouldn't have known any Elvish to be able to put it on the door.
> 
> .....
> 
> How if the Elves had never seen or come to Moria before, could it have Elvish words on it? Or is this just me being overly suspicious and picking something out of nothing?


I believe you are mixing up your Middle Earth Ages. The first quote you give comes from The Silmarillion and refers to a time in the First Age. The second quote is Gandalf speaking in LOTR (FOTR) at the end of the Third Age. The friendship that grew up between the elves of Eregion (founded 750 of the Second Age by the Noldor) and the dwarves of Moria happened in the Second Age. It was during that time that the doors were built and the inscription placed on them. The inscription on the door states it was drawn by Celebrimbor, who was killed in the wars with Sauron in 1697 of the Second Age. Thus you have 947 years between the coming of the elves to Eregion and Celebrimbor's death. Even if it took 500 years from the elves arrival to flowering of their friendship with the dwarves and the making of the doors, there is plenty of time. And it was the elves writing on the door, not the dwarves.


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## Voronwë (Mar 23, 2005)

It was merely well-meaning cheekiness from Celembrimbor.


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## Celebthôl (Mar 24, 2005)

Greenwood said:


> I believe you are mixing up your Middle Earth Ages. The first quote you give comes from The Silmarillion and refers to a time in the First Age. The second quote is Gandalf speaking in LOTR (FOTR) at the end of the Third Age. The friendship that grew up between the elves of Eregion (founded 750 of the Second Age by the Noldor) and the dwarves of Moria happened in the Second Age. It was during that time that the doors were built and the inscription placed on them. The inscription on the door states it was drawn by Celebrimbor, who was killed in the wars with Sauron in 1697 of the Second Age. Thus you have 947 years between the coming of the elves to Eregion and Celebrimbor's death. Even if it took 500 years from the elves arrival to flowering of their friendship with the dwarves and the making of the doors, there is plenty of time. And it was the elves writing on the door, not the dwarves.



Right-O. Thought it was too good to be true.


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## Alatar (Apr 6, 2005)

The elves were never fond of dwarf dwellings so (as a laugh/foresight) it was called the black pit. the elves have great foresight and i think that Cel may have senced the Balrog under. though not knowing what it was didn't say "RUNNNNNNNNN!!!!!" or somthing... whatever.
BTW Was Cel born in Middle earth i think he wasn't, but why didn't he take the oath? His dad did????


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 6, 2005)

Alatar said:


> The elves were never fond of dwarf dwellings so (as a laugh/foresight) it was called the black pit. the elves have great foresight and i think that Cel may have senced the Balrog under. though not knowing what it was didn't say "RUNNNNNNNNN!!!!!" or somthing... whatever.



It would have been quite sneaky and backstabbing of the Elves to withhold that knowledge, wouldn't it? After all, this was the greatest instance of friendship between the Dwarves and Elves that had ever occured. Also, I'm not sure elves could just sense the Balrog like that to begin with, especially since it was supposedly in a dormant state.



> BTW Was Cel born in Middle earth i think he wasn't, but why didn't he take the oath? His dad did????



It is said he was estranged from his father, and that he was of a different (read: gentler) mood.


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## Alcuin (Apr 6, 2005)

On Alatar’s behalf, if I may, the “sense” of the Eldar of Eregion might have been that something “down there” was wrong. “Hey, Celebrimbor, we’ve opened a new mithril vein under Caradhras. Come see it! The ore is almost half mithril, and there are actually pure nuggets in some of the underground streams.” “What? That _black pit_? Oh, well, I suppose so; but don’t douse the torches this time! It isn’t funny! Geez, that place gives me the creeps!”


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## Alatar (Apr 7, 2005)

I didn't say they knew the balrog was there they just senced that there was some evil presence there Celborn said "long have we known that a evil slept under carhadas" and if he a dark elf could sence it then i think that the noldor could sence it better.
"Hey yeh the mines cool but i'm a little queesy down here i'll just wait at the top"
"Elf woss"
"What did you say"
"Nothing"

And if Cel didn't take the oath how embarassing would that would be for his Dad?
And why wasn't there any other little Feanorians running around in Tiron only one...mentioned.
Celborn said "long have we known that a evil slept under carhadas" and if he a dark elf could sence it then i think that the noldor could sence it better.


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## Greenwood (Apr 22, 2005)

Alatar said:


> Celborn said "long have we known that a evil slept under carhadas" and if he a dark elf could sence it then i think that the noldor could sence it better.


But, Celeborn's comment was made when the Fellowship (minus Gandalf) arrived in Lothlorien, 3019 TA . The dwarves abandoned Moria in 1981 TA after the first appearance of the balrog in 1980 TA; 1038 years before Celeborn's comment. It doesn't take much special sense, or perception, to "know" an "evil slept under Caradhras" over a thousand years after the dwarves were driven out of Moria! 

More importantly, you do not give Celeborn's full quote. In speaking to Gimli, Celeborn said: "Alas! We long have feared that under Caradhras a terror slept. But had I known that the Dwarves had stirred up this evil in Moria *again*, I would have forbidden you to pass the northern borders, you and all that went with you. And if it were possible, one would say that at the last Gandalf fell from wisodom into folly, going needlessly into the net of Moria." [emphasis added] To me, at least, it seems clear that Celeborn is referring to the reawakening of the balrog by Balin and his folk in their attempt to reopen Moria. He is not speaking of any sense of evil under the mountain over a thousand years earlier.


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