# Noldolante



## Confusticated (Oct 20, 2003)

Does anyone think the exiled Noldor deserved what happened after Mandos spoke their Doom?


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## YayGollum (Oct 20, 2003)

Yes and of course, I would hesitantly write. If they had just decided to sit on their hands and not do anything, I'm thinking that a lot less unpleasant things would have happened to them. *hides, then runs away*


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## Ithrynluin (Oct 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by YayGollum _
> * If they had just decided to sit on their hands and not do anything, I'm thinking that a lot less unpleasant things would have happened to them. *hides, then runs away* *



Even if they were content with simply living in Valinor and enjoying its bliss, I doubt that they would be able to do this forever. Morgoth was on the loose, and he would have disrupted their peace of mind.

They certainly didn't _deserve_ what happened to them in Aman. They were pulled into it by Morgoth, and he brought so much evil to them that they felt it was their need to take revenge. I guess that means they DID deserve what happened afterwards in Beleriand, since they decided to go there of their own will, against the better judgement of the Valar.


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## Confusticated (Oct 21, 2003)

But if you do not blame them for the state of mind they were put in because Melkor had gone among them and stirred things up, how blame them for the decision they made to go into exile? It was a result of that contact with Melkor and the powerful speech of Feanor. Is it just because they went knowingly against that better judgement of the Valar? But it was the judgement of the Valar that Melkor should be allowed among the Noldor.

Did the people who went forward on the march so as not to forsake those who were going, or leave them to the leadership of Feanor, deserve what happend in Beleriand? Did the refugees of Gondolin whose fair city had perished with the majority of the people and the King, deserve to be attacked by the sons of Feanor who were so much in the wrong that some of their own people rebelled and fought against them?

Did Finrod deserve to have his own people forsake him and then die fighting a werewolf in a dungeon?

Turgon who was against Feanor in Tirion, to bury his father and then watch his city and people fall to ruin around him?

All of these people moved by Feanor's words wanting to find new lands or get revenge, or be free from the Valar who some thought brought them there for ill purposes, and all of those who went along just to stay with their people who went into danger?

Because their minds were turned to distrust, and their pride would not let some of them turn back? Are those crimes deserving of all that happend? Only a few made that evil oath, and a great part of the Noldor were guiltless in the Kinslaying, did they deserve all this bad stuff?

They didn't want to sit around worshipping the Valar, so they were left in the dark to learn who was the most powerful and then came crawling back because they knew they fought a losing battle? What kind of way is that to mend shaken faith? It sounds like something that would be used for brainwashing.


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## Inderjit S (Oct 21, 2003)

> I guess that means they DID deserve what happened afterwards in Beleriand, since they decided to go there of their own will, against the better judgement of the Valar





> The closing of Valinor against the rebel Ñoldor (who left it voluntarily and after warning) was in itself just. But, if we dare to attempt to enter the mind of the Elder King, assigning motives and finding faults, there are things to remember before we deliver a judgement. Manwë was the spirit of greatest wisdom and prudence in Arda.
> He is represented as having had the greatest knowledge of the Music, as a whole, possessed by any one finite mind; and he alone of all persons or minds in that time is represented as having the power of direct recourse to and communication with Eru. He must have grasped with great clarity what even we may perceive dimly: that it was the essential mode of the process of 'history' in Arda that evil should constantly arise, and that out of it new good should constantly come. One especial aspect of this is the strange way in which the evils of the Marrer, or his inheritors, are turned into weapons against evil. If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reestablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Ñoldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth, without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction. And in the meanwhile, Men, or the best elements in Mankind, shaking off his shadow, came into contact with a people who had actually seen and experienced the Blessed Realm.
> In their association with the warring Eldar Men were raised
> to their fullest achievable stature, and by the two marriages the transference to them, or infusion into Mankind, of the noblest Elf-strain was accomplished, in readiness for the still distant, but inevitably approaching, days when the Elves would 'fade



Are the Ñoldor a victim of the Fate of Arda? Or a pawn of Manwë Súlimo? The Ñoldor deserved everything they got all right-the respect, reverence and eventual revenge, the Ñoldor the true heroes of Arda, saviours of Men and haters of Morgoth-here's some nerds you wouldn't want to give wedgies.  



> But Fëanor laughed, and spoke not to the herald, but to the Ñoldor, saying: 'So! Then will this valiant people send forth the heir of their King alone into banishment with his sons only, and return to their bondage? But if any will come with me, I say to them: Is sorrow foreboded to you? But in Aman we have seen it. In Aman we have come through bliss to woe. The other now we will try: through sorrow to find joy; or freedom, at the least.'


 Best Speech EVER. 

 

Did the Ñoldor really belong in Aman? Did any of the Elves really belong there? (Note _Converse of Manwë and Eru_ (HoME 10) and _Quendi and Eldar_ (HoME 11) we hear that the Teleri claimed the Ñoldor didn't really belong in Aman, but the Ñoldor say the same about the Teleri. 

Did Maedhros deserve being betrayed by Ulfang? Did Elwe Þindikollo deserve the Silmaril? He certainly deserved what he got from being such a first class goof-ball. Did Aredhel deserve being killed by her husband? Did Fingolfin deserve being crushed under the feet of Morgoth? Did Fingon deserve being slain by Gothmog? Or Aegnor being separated from the love of his life? Did Amras deserve being burnt in the ships off Losgar or Fëanor the guilt of this, or what happened to him? Someone who brought such beauty, joy and songs into the world surely should have some respect? A race that stopped Middle-Earth from falling under the dominion of Morgoth surely deserves some respect? (Continuing Nóm's work  )


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## Beleg (Oct 21, 2003)

That's a very relative question; isn't it?
It would be unfair to blame the whole race for the misdoings of certian individuals but on the others because of the misdeeds of these certain individuals the whole clan suffers.
It might seem opinionated but I think that the Noldor didn't deserve what happened to them in Beleriand and while passing through the grinding ice. No race or clan, how much sin deserve such treatment.



> Did Maedhros deserve being betrayed by Ulfang?



No. Although in more stricter sense C were betrayed, although that betrayal also wasn't correct.



> Did Elwe Þindikollo deserve the Silmaril?



Yes, he deserved the Silmaril. 




> Did Aredhel deserve being killed by her husband?



No. But why ever did she agree to marry him?



> Did Fingolfin deserve being crushed under the feet of Morgoth?



Well he lost the battle which he himself had initiated; but he didn't deserve death, no I think not.



> Did Amras deserve being burnt in the ships off Losgar or Fëanor the guilt of this, or what happened to him?



Feanor deserved what he got.



> Someone who brought such beauty, joy and songs into the world surely should have some respect?



Someone who brought such destruction, enimity and woes with him certianly deserves to be punished. 



> A race that stopped Middle-Earth from falling under the dominion of Morgoth surely deserves some respect?


yes.


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## Inderjit S (Oct 21, 2003)

> No. Although in more stricter sense C were betrayed, although that betrayal also wasn't correct.



Maedhros was the over-lord of the Eastern host-they assailed the banner of Maedhros, therefore it was a betrayal to Maedhros not Caranthir, who they served. 



> Yes, he deserved the Silmaril.



For doing what exactly?



> No. But why ever did she agree to marry him?



Because she was *forced* to. 



> Someone who brought such destruction, enimity and woes with him certianly deserves to be punished



Someone who brought such beauty, joy and story with these woes and destructions, someone who changed to fate of Arda for the better, one of the most tragic figures ever. If he didn't exist then Arda would never be the same place.


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## Beleg (Oct 21, 2003)

> Maedhros was the over-lord of the Eastern host-they assailed the banner of Maedhros, therefore it was a betrayal to Maedhros not Caranthir, who they served.



Meadhros might be the over-lord but they had allianced themselves with C so it would be a more personal betrayel to him.



> For doing what exactly?



So you think that those people who had 'done anything' worthwile deserve the Silmaril?

I would say he deserved the Silmaril because he was the High king of Beleriand. 



> Because she was forced to.



How was she forced too? 



> *
> Of Sil*
> 
> It is not said that Aredhel was wholly unwilling, nor that her life in Nan Elmoth was hateful to her for many years



And if it was against her will then why did she not tell C and co the truth and they would have finished off Eol?




> Someone who brought such beauty, joy and story with these woes and destructions, someone who changed to fate of Arda for the better, one of the most tragic figures ever. If he didn't exist then Arda would never be the same place.



Sorry but he brought woes and problems for everyone. 

He created the Silmaril's.
Silmaril's led to the darkening of Valinor, the death of his own father which started all the trouble. 
The ripples created by this led to the exile of the Noldor, the consequent death of many on the Grinding ice, the Kinslaying at Aqualonde. 
They reached Beleriand where it led to the death of Feanor himself, six of his sons, his one half-brother and their Kin. They also led to the death of King Thingol of the Grey Elves and the destruction of Doriath beauty of Beleriand. They also led to the ruin of the Edain, the slaughter of the House of Boer and House of Hador. 
It led to many fights, the killing of many innocent men and elves, dwarves. 

Feanor was a fell creature. 
He killed or supposedly killed his own son. 
He drew sword at his own brother.
He acted like a general [email protected]@@ and refused to take advice from those more subtle and wise then him.
He stirred enimity with the Valar and started all the Noldor on their voes.
He was treachrous to his half-brother, his kin and broke promise.
He initiated the Kinslaying at Aqualonde, immersed in the lust of Silmaril and revenge. 

Such a person may have created things of pleasure and beauty and maybe called great for that but in the end he got himself killed; a fitting end.


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## Confusticated (Oct 21, 2003)

> Are the Ñoldor a victim of the Fate of Arda? Or a pawn of Manwë Súlimo?


I do not find the idea of the flight of the Noldor and war against 
Morgoth by the people of Middle-earth being a plan of the Valar, to be fitting with 'The Silmarillion'. The fact that it is said the Valar did not think Feanor would hold sway over the hosts in Valinor is almost enough, alone, to cause me to question it.

However, if we take this idea that it was planned by the Valar, the question of them deserving it becomes different. The idea as presented in Myth's Transformed would be consistent with Iluvatar's will being behind this. If it was Iluvatar's will then how can we say the Noldor did not deserve it? It would be to assume we know better than Iluvatar what his children should have experienced. With the Valar on the other hand, we can believe it was a mistake to put the Noldor through this. In fact even if this had been a plot of the Valar but without specific counsel from Eru do to this (though I think it is unlikely), one might say the Valar were wrong in the punishment they let the Noldor go through.


> Did the Ñoldor really belong in Aman? Did any of the Elves really belong there? (Note Converse of Manwë and Eru (HoME 10) and Quendi and Eldar (HoME 11) we hear that the Teleri claimed the Ñoldor didn't really belong in Aman, but the Ñoldor say the same about the Teleri.


Hehe... I had a great laugh when I read this in Q&E.

This question is a thread itself (it really is... see that _other forum_ where Variag of Khand asks it) but the thread I opened here 'Vanyar deprived?' also touches on this. In short: I believe the elves should not have been brought to Aman. Even with the hell the Noldor went through, and Teleri at the Kinslaying, something about the effect Aman had on the Vanyar really strikes me as being perhaps the worse. Not only did this going to Aman have bad effect on the Amanyar but also went hand in hand with the Valar to forsake some of the Quendi (who they allegedly loved), and caused men to wake up in Morgoth's realm. 

I was initially going to open a thread asking which of the three kins of Amanyar paid the highest price relative to what they deserved... but in the process of typing up the opening post it turned into this thread and I decided to ask that question after this thread had moved along a bit. So we can either toss that subject into ths thread as a branch, or I'll open that thread later on (say, a couple days from now).



> Best Speech EVER.


Maybe so... but I love the one that starts: _Say this to Manwe Sulimo, High King of Arda_... 



> Did Maedhros deserve being betrayed by Ulfang?


Well, note I didn't ask about any of the Feanorians. The reason for this is the oath, and the initiation of the kinslaying. I know you think the Teleri pulled swords out no later than did the Noldor, but I disagree. However, it is a matter of interpretation. _If_ I were of the mind that the Teleri were the first to pull out a sword or fire an arrow... I may view Feanor's host a lot differently, but I do not.



> Did Aredhel deserve being killed by her husband?


Well since Galadriel was the only lady among the princes who played a big part in the happenings on Tirion at Feanor's speech and oath... we can not know where Aredhel was at or what she was thinking, nor can we know if she had guild in the kinslaying. For all we know she could have been up front with her oathy cousins, and have slew some Teleri. Correct me if there is a way to know she did not do this. I do think it is unlikely, given that had she done so, she'd likely have been among those of Feanor's people to abandon the host of Fingolfin... somehow this seems worth mentioning if it had been the case. But I am not saying she deserved what she got.

I really don't want to say anyone deserved something bad. They all had their reasons, but where does one draw the line? When is the excuse not enough? I do not want to say.



> Did Fingolfin deserve being crushed under the feet of Morgoth? Did Fingon deserve being slain by Gothmog?


At least Fingon died as a King fighting for his people. But I do not think Fingolfin deserved what came to him. Fingon at least was eager to return to Middle-earth. Not that this means he deserved it... but something about Fingolfin's tale is just more of a pity to me.



> Or Aegnor being separated from the love of his life?


Well given Finrod's ficklish excuses for his brother, it may be that Aegnor and Andreth would not have been together even in a time of peace. In truth I am not sure which I believe would be the case.



> A race that stopped Middle-Earth from falling under the dominion of Morgoth surely deserves some respect?


I agree. I have much respect for the Noldor. Their boldness, knowledge, skill, pride and honour (is most cases hehe) independance from the Valar... many of the people of the Quendi may have wisdom and beauty and skill of some artistic sort... but none of them kick as much ass as the Noldor... plain and simple. NOLDOR ARE BEST NOLDOR ARE BEST! Who did Finrod, Finwe, Fingolfin, Galadriel, Half of Pengolodh, Rumil and Feanor belong to? NOLDOR! NOLDOR! Gimmie an N! Oops... sorry... was taken by the spirit of the rebellion. hehe. 

On Feanor - No, I do not think he deserved to be taken in by Melkor's cunning. Nor did any of the Noldor. The Noldor are tiny compared to the Valar... tiny but fierce... but they who even surpassed their Ainur teachers could not have known the malice of Melkor, nor guessed at the level of evil cunning that one could do. The Eldar were not safe in Valinor, so they went to attack their enemy Valar aid or not. No doubt that Feanor brought about all sorts of evil, but he was not the origin of it. Feanor was wrong, but personally I can not blame him for the rebellion. I can't understand how his pride was so great that he showed no grief, nor even acknowledged his error when his son was burned. He is not a kind I can understand.

For those who think the Noldor did not deserve all of this: what do you think the Valar should have done?

Inder... do you think that Myth's transformed bit fits with the published Silmarillion?

PS: Why is everyone adopting that squiggly ~ over the N? Is it to show true Noldor fandom in using the archaic form, or are y'all just following Maedhros (of TTF)'s lead?


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## Inderjit S (Oct 22, 2003)

> Meadhros might be the over-lord but they had allianced themselves with C so it would be a more personal betrayel to him.



They had not allied themselves to Caranthir they served him, they had allied themselves to Maedhros, Maedhros held the ultimate authority over his brothers and thus his subjects. His subjects betrayed him, therefore he was betrayed. 



> So you think that those people who had 'done anything' worthwile deserve the Silmaril?



One must do something to win the greatest jewel on Earth. 



> I would say he deserved the Silmaril because he was the High king of Beleriand.



Lol. That’s ridiculous. Working with that logic the Fëanor deserved the Telerin ships because he was King of the Ñoldor. Just because you are King doesn't mean you can go around making greedy requests.

Elwe Þindikollo wasn't 'High King' of Beleriand. Just because your are the King doesn't give you the god-given right to do whatsoever you wish and doesn't mean you "deserve" things. What do you think his excuse was to Melian when she bidded him to give up the Jewel? "No! I'm King Thingol and I deserve the Silmaril because I'm THE King!" Pretty petulant. The _Published Silmarillion_ claims he was held 'over-lord' of Beleriand. This would have been a mere formality to please his arrogance. None of the self-willed Ñoldorin princes would have acknowledged his 'Kingship' except perhaps for the Finarfians. Elwe Þindikollo held a isolationist policy, he did nothing that was beneficial to the War, and any of the Mithrim Sindar, who he and the Iathrim Sindar mistrusted anyway, were drawn into the Ñoldorin Kingdoms and were ruled over by the Ñoldorin princes, though Fingolfin was High-King. Elwe Þindikollo had no claim on the Ñoldor and certainly no claim on the Silmaril.



> How was she forced too?



She was not given a choice. She wouldn't have married Eöl gladly of her free-will.



> Very fair she seemed to him, and he desired her; and he set his enchantments about her so that she could not find the ways out,





> 'Lady, let us depart while there is time? What hope is there in this wood for you or for me? Here we are held in bondage,





> return.' Then Curufin looked darkly upon Eöl. 'Do not flaunt the title of your wife before me,' he said. 'For those who steal the daughters of the Noldor and wed them without gift or leave do not gain kinship with their kin. I have given you leave to go. Take it, and be gone. By the laws of the Eldar I may not slay you at this time. And this counsel I add: return now to your dwelling in the darkness of Nan El-moth; for my heart warns me that if you now pursue those who love you no more, never will you return thither.'



Quotes from _Of Maeglin; Published Silmarillion_ 



> And if it was against her will then why did she not tell C and co the truth and they would have finished off Eol?





> The meeting between Eöl and Curufin (if not too long an interruption) is good, since it shows (as is desirable) Curufin, too often the villain (especially in the Tale of Tinúviel), in a better and more honourable light - though still one of dangerous mood and contemptuous speech. Curufin of course knew well of Eöl's hatred of the Noldor, and especially of Fëanor and his sons, as 'usurpers' (though in this case unjust, since the lands occupied by the 5 sons had not been peopled before by the Sindar). Also he knew of Eöl's friendship with the Dwarves of Nogrod (indeed Eöl could not have journeyed alone across E. Beleriand to Nogrod unless allowed by the 5 sons), among whom he had tried with some success to stir up unfriendliness to the Noldor. Which was a grievance to the 5 sons, who had, before Eöl's coming to Nan Elmoth, had much profit from the help of the Dwarves. Curufin also knew that Eöl's wife was of the Ñoldor, indeed he had long known who she was, and now shrewdly guessed that she was [?seeking] to escape from her husband at last. Curufin could have slain Eöl (as he greatly wished!) and no one beyond the few men with him at his camp (who would never have betrayed him) would ever have heard of it - or much mourned it. In Elmoth it would simply be learned that Eöl had ridden in pursuit of Areðel and never come back, and there were perils enough upon the road to account for that. But this would have been in Eldarin law and sentiment murder; Eöl came alone, on no errand of mischief at that time, but in distress. Also [he] had answered Curufin's contempt and insults soberly or indeed with courtesy (whether it were ironic or not). Also and more cogently he was one of the Eldar


 _Of Maeglin; HoME 11_ 



> He created the Silmaril's.
> Silmaril's led to the darkening of Valinor, the death of his own father which started all the trouble



No the *lies of Morgoth* created the rebellion. What are you critisizing the creation of the Silmaril's now?  



> The ripples created by this led to the exile of the Noldor, the consequent death of many on the Grinding ice, the Kinslaying at Aqualonde.



Fëanor didn't *force* them to go to Middle-Earth they went of their own free will, not because they obeyed the every command of Fëanor. You cannot pin the blame fully upon Fëanor a leader doesn't go to far without followers. 



> They also led to the ruin of the Edain, the slaughter of the House of Boer and House of Hador



Those houses would have not have existed if it wasn't for the Ñoldor. Men would soon have been over-come. The Sindar would have been over-come. Men would not be as great as they became. 




> The closing of Valinor against the rebel Ñoldor (who left it voluntarily and after warning) was in itself just. But, if we dare to attempt to enter the mind of the Elder King, assigning motives and finding faults, there are things to remember before we deliver a judgement. Manwë was the spirit of greatest wisdom and prudence in Arda.
> He is represented as having had the greatest knowledge of the Music, as a whole, possessed by any one finite mind; and he alone of all persons or minds in that time is represented as having the power of direct recourse to and communication with Eru. He must have grasped with great clarity what even we may perceive dimly: that it was the essential mode of the process of 'history' in Arda that evil should constantly arise, and that out of it new good should constantly come. One especial aspect of this is the strange way in which the evils of the Marrer, or his inheritors, are turned into weapons against evil. If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reestablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Ñoldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth, without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction. And in the meanwhile, Men, or the best elements in Mankind, shaking off his shadow, came into contact with a people who had actually seen and experienced the Blessed Realm.
> In their association with the warring Eldar Men were raised
> to their fullest achievable stature, and by the two marriages the transference to them, or infusion into Mankind, of the noblest Elf-strain was accomplished, in readiness for the still distant, but inevitably approaching, days when the Elves would 'fade


 _Myths Transformed; HoME 10_ 



> It led to many fights, the killing of many innocent men and elves, dwarves



They're not exactly _innocent_ if they were involved in a open war with Morgoth were they? 



> He killed or supposedly killed his own son



It was a *accident* if that means anything to you. Some people accidently kill other people-does that make them evil too?



> He stirred enimity with the Valar and started all the Noldor on their voes.



No that was Morgoth. As Nom says he didn't *start* anything.



> He was treachrous to his half-brother, his kin and broke promise.



You seem to contradict yourself. On one hand you critisize him because he 'forced' the Ñoldor to go to M-E yet when he abandons them, he still leaves them with a chance to go back to Aman and live in peace.



> Such a person may have created things of pleasure and beauty



What are the Silmarils? Palantir? The new alpahabet?



> Maybe so... but I love the one that starts: Say this to Manwe Sulimo, High King of Arda...



Must have forgotten to add it.  



> Inder... do you think that Myth's transformed bit fits with the published Silmarillion?



I don't see why not. The idea of it being a plan of the Valar is just some cynicsm on my part.  But the quote in M.T doesn't say Manwe instigated it per se, rather that he knew that all things that took place took place for a reason.

"But, if we dare to attempt to enter the mind of the Elder King, assigning motives and finding faults, there are things to remember before we deliver a judgement. Manwë was the spirit of greatest wisdom and prudence in Arda.
He is represented as having had the greatest knowledge of the Music, as a whole, possessed by any one finite mind; and he alone of all persons or minds in that time is represented as having the power of direct recourse to and communication with Eru. He must have grasped with great clarity what even we may perceive dimly: that it was the essential mode of the process of 'history' in Arda that evil should constantly arise, and that out of it new good should constantly come."



> Why is everyone adopting that squiggly ~ over the N? Is it to



Cos it kewl.


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## Confusticated (Jan 7, 2004)

True that it doesn't state this was a plan, but surely the Valar knew about it while the WotJ was going on. If Morgoth had to sit underground sending out his power for a few hundred years before he reached a point were he was weak enough for the Valar to make serious war upon him... this means the role of the Noldor was a little too convinient. They were being used as soldiers against Morgoth's armies. The same can be said of the Sindar and Edain. Too bad we can't be sure what the Valar would have done if Feanor had just went after Morgoth with his sons instead of coming to Tirion.


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