# Why do people think fingolfin and most elves will defeat Turin turambar? Fingolfin couldn't defeat Morgoth, but Turin killed morgoth



## Turin_Turambar (Dec 23, 2021)

many people on this forum and on quora argue that fingolfin and many other elves can be defeat turin. So why do they think so? Why is it ignored that Turin kills Morgoth? Okay, Turin may not have killed Morgoth alone. But it doesn't say that he killed Morgoth with help or with someone else. It just says that Turin will kill after Tulkas's struggle. Why are people defending Fingolfin when Fingolfin can't defeat Morgoth? Why do most people think fingolfin can beat turin?


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## HALETH✒🗡 (Dec 24, 2021)

Was Eowyn the strongest warrior? No. But she killed the With-King. Strength in general is not the same as one-day success.

Turin vs Fingolfin... 
I don't know who would win.


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## LydoCuccitini (Apr 5, 2022)

Because Túrin killing Morgoth is kind of an unfinished concept, and Christopher Tolkien stated that his father abandoned it. Besides, even if we were to agree upon this existence of Dagor Dagorath, we don't know if Túrin would've killed his enemy fair and square, in a one-o-one combat.
Also, Húrin is said to have been the greatest warrior among Men, which should make him better than his own son. And no one would think him able to take down Fingolfin.


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## Turin_Turambar (Oct 24, 2022)

LydoCuccitini said:


> Because Túrin killing Morgoth is kind of an unfinished concept, and Christopher Tolkien stated that his father abandoned it. Besides, even if we were to agree upon this existence of Dagor Dagorath, we don't know if Túrin would've killed his enemy fair and square, in a one-o-one combat.
> Also, Húrin is said to have been the greatest warrior among Men, which should make him better than his own son. And no one would think him able to take down Fingolfin.


Hurin is said to be the strongest warrior, not the greatest warrior. Strength and swordsmanship are two different things.


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## Ent (Oct 24, 2022)

LydoCuccitini said:


> we don't know


With this I fully agree.




Ecthelion of the Fountain said:


> Strength and swordsmanship are two different things.


With this I also fully agree.




HALETH✒🗡 said:


> Strength in general is not the same as one-day success.


And with this, too, I could not find myself more fully in agreement.




LydoCuccitini said:


> because Túrin killing Morgoth is kind of an unfinished concept, and Christopher Tolkien stated that his father abandoned it.


This one I'd like to ask where the source for this can be found, just so I can verify it please? it's the kind of thing I really look for in formulating an opinion.




Ecthelion of the Fountain said:


> So why do they think so? Why is it ignored that Turin kills Morgoth?


On this one I'd just like to point out that if it had not been for Balrogs, Morgoth would have fallen to Ungoliant. So if the Balrogs were able to chase away Ungoliant, were they not also more powerful than Morgoth? Yet they always served him. 


Sometimes I just love the 'speculative questions' that get posted, and the watching of what happens when various speculations are posted in response.
Two things we must always question: 
1) - what is our 'premise' and does it 'hold water' as some say?
2) - if the question is speculative at best, with no written conclusion to answer it, what are we anticipating for answers?
3) - is there a reason we want others to agree with our own personal speculation? If so, what is that (real) reason, and does it 'hold water'?


Please understand: I do not apply this specifically to THIS thread, or to these 'particular' answers, other than that they are demonstrative of the whole scope of speculative endeavor in all arenas, examples, and corners of the world.

Once we 'get this' we can handle our asking, and answering, of such questions much better.


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## Elthir (Oct 24, 2022)

The Enting said:


> *Lydo Cuccitini *wrote: " . . . because Túrin killing Morgoth is kind of an unfinished concept, and Christopher Tolkien stated that his father abandoned it."
> 
> This one I'd like to ask where the source for this can be found, just so I can verify it please? it's the kind of thing I really look for in formulating an opinion.



If I may jump in, Christopher Tolkien stated that the Second Prophecy of Mandos was abandoned, which need not be conflated with the idea of Túrin dealing Morgoth a death blow, even though that had appeared in this prophecy.

In his discussion of the _Valaquenta_ (Morgoth's Ring) Christopher Tolkien states that the text used for the end of the 1977, constructed Silmarilion [Quenta Silmarillion section anyway], shows that: *"The Second Prophecy of Mandos had now therefore definitively disappeared". *Here he's referring to Tolkien's: *"if any change shall come and the Marring be amended, Manwe and Varda may know; but they have not revealed it, and it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos".*

There is also Tolkien himself (Morgoth's Ring again) noting that the Second Prophecy is "now" (in revision) rather to be seen as a Numenoriean myth. Here again, Second _Prophecy of Mandos_: out -- Numenorean myth: in.

But again, Christopher Tolkien never claimed that what was in the Second Prophecy had definitively been abandoned (had "definitively disappeared").

In addition, not only do we have at least one other idea about how Arda Marred could become Arda Healed, but then we throw in the late-ish prophecy from Andreth [about Túrin] into the mix, and now we again have a _prophecy_ -- though not, of course, from Mandos himself . . . which makes _some_ folk, at least, _wonder_ if JRRT had taken Túrin out of the Numenorean myth!

That myth being the former prophecy of Mandos 

Anyway, that's my story.

I found it in a wonderful carboard box, and so far, I'm stickin' with it!


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Oct 24, 2022)

Elthir said:


> Christopher Tolkien stated that the Second Prophecy of Mandos was abandoned,


I respect his viewpoint - however, I still believe in that Second Prophecy. 

If Námo made it, he made it. Abandoning it doesn't mean nullifying it so that it never existed in the first place. 

Of course, one could still _search for it_...


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## Ent (Oct 24, 2022)

Elthir said:


> If I may jump in,


I now have the usual crystal clear picture delivered by THE Cat in a Coat.
It's a good thing I am not hasty. 
I will read it again... (and again.... and....)

Back to your box now...! 

(Actually, thanks as usual.)


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## Ent (Oct 24, 2022)

Nienna Qalme-Tári said:


> I respect his viewpoint - however, I still believe in that Second Prophecy.


Good. Stick to your guns. (Or whatever weaponry is available in your case.)

Meanwhile, I'll just keep adding 'stuff' to my repository of other 'stuff' so it's all available when I'm wishing on a star somewhere over the rainbow.


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## Sons of the Woodland King (Oct 24, 2022)

Arguments regarding the Second Prophecy aside, I think "David vs Goliath" scenarios repeatedly come up in the stories of Middle-earth, some with better outcomes than others (e.g. Fingolfin=bad ending; Eowyn=good ending). So I personally think it's ultimately futile to try to answer the question of "who is most/more powerful" based on their accomplishments. Many characters seem to be aided by some supernatural blessing/curse (Earendil), fate/luck/prophecy (Turin), or a characteristic other than strength (ex. Frodo/Sam's innate goodness). 

Which, if I may dare to insert some religious influence into it, is in keeping with the Christian theme of "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me". The point being that even the most unlikely creatures can achieve great feats of heroism when they have been powered or supported by a force greater than themselves. 

Turin beating Morgoth in combat doesn't necessarily mean Fingolfin can't beat Turin in a face off. That's like trying to use math to calculate probabilities on magical creatures--it just isn't computable. That's why we love it!


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## Elthir (Oct 24, 2022)

I should add:

In _Morgoth's Ring,_ we have Author's note 7 to the commentary to the _Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth,_ where JRRT writes: *"(. . .) It is noteworthy that the Elves had no myths or legends dealing with the end of the world. The myth that appears at the end of the Silmarillion is of Numenorean origin; it is clearly made by Men, though Men acquainted with Elvish tradition."*

*"Note 19: "The myth that appears at the end of the Silmarillion": in so far as the reference is to any actual written text, this is the conclusion of QS (V. 333, sections 31 - 2), the Prophecy of Mandos."* Christopher Tolkien, commentary

Just in case someone wants to quibble with me stating that Tolkien "himself" noted that the former prophecy is now to be seen as a mannish myth -- I realize he didn't use those exact words, but I feel confident enough about my characterization due to these statements -- or let's put it this way, I agree with Christopher Tolkien here, and I can't as easily imagine what else JRRT might have meant.

🐾


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## Erestor Arcamen (Oct 24, 2022)

To throw another wrench into the mix...it says the sword of Turin will deal the death blow, but it doesn't say Turin will be the one holding it, just that he's there...🤔


> $$34 - 6 On the two star-makings see p. 61, $24. There is here the remarkable statement that Menelmakar (Orion) was 'a sign of Turin Turambar, who should come into the world, and a foreshowing of the Last Battle that shall be at the end of Days.' This is a reference to the Second Prophecy of Mandos (in the Quenta, IV.165):
> 
> Then shall the last battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Melko, and on his right shall stand Fionwe and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, Conqueror of Fate, coming from the halls of Mandos; and it shall be the black sword of Turin that deals unto Melko his death and final end; and so shall the children of Hurin and all Men be avenged. The Quenya name Menelmacar is mentioned in Appendix E (I) to The Lord of the Rings; in The Fellowship of the Ring (p. 91) appears the Sindarin form: the Swordsman of the Sky, Menel- vagor with his shining belt'.


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## Elthir (Oct 24, 2022)

*Sons of the Woodland King* 👍 

Not only was that a good post, but if I can add a personal experience: a fallen, rotting branch once defeated me, and I didn't even realize we were fighting!


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## Sons of the Woodland King (Oct 24, 2022)

Elthir said:


> *Sons of the Woodland King* 👍
> 
> Not only was that a good post, but if I can add a personal experience: a fallen, rotting branch once defeated me, and I didn't even realize we were fighting!


Those branches do NOT play fair, so I'm glad you survived!!!


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## Erestor Arcamen (Oct 24, 2022)

*Turin: "Here Tulkas, stab him with this!" *hands over sword*
Tulkas: *stabby stabby*
Morgoth: 💀*


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## Sons of the Woodland King (Oct 24, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> *Turin: "Here Tulkas, stab him with this!" *hands over sword*
> Tulkas: *stabby stabby*
> Morgoth: 💀*


I officially support this theory.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Oct 24, 2022)

In all seriousness, I am teasing and the OP question is a good one so @Ecthelion of the Fountain no offense meant towards you.


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## Ent (Oct 24, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> the OP question is a good one


Indeed it is...! 
This is the kind of 'exploration' that reveals and teaches much, and I continue to be thankful for everyone who participates in probing the possibilities. It's why I came here... to learn!


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