# Sauron's Race



## Tao (Mar 30, 2002)

Sauron is well described in the book. HOWEVER, _The Lord of the Rings_ never truly states what race Sauron is (before and after the time of Isildur's taking of the Ring). This is up to the personal opinion of yourself, but what race do you think he is?

This is hard to choose from. He could be anywhere from a Lowly Balrog that cleverly tricked the ring makers, to a man that has gone corrupted (and VERY corrupted indeed). 

Personally, I believe that he no race that has been mentioned in _The Lord of the Rings_. Since the books obviously don't state every race in Middle-Earth (I don't think), you can't really say what type he is. Think about it: Shelob, on of Ungoliant's (?) children is a giant spider that eats anything from Orcs to Hobbits. Nowhere in the book does it say SPECIFICALLY what race she is. And we all know that some creatures are corruptions of other creatures (orcs=corrupted elves, trolls=corrupted ents, etc.), so there is a possibility that Sauron is a corrupted form of some sort of otherwise friendly creature. 

Think of Sauron in his 'Eye' form. It is nothing but a lidless eye. Was he always like this (no)? Would his race be considered 'Dark Lord', because Middle-Earth creatures are unknowing of his real race? Hmmmmmmmm.....

This is a question I have always wondered myself. It is true that Tolkien didn't dive deep into the subject of Sauron's Race, but it would have been very nice if he had.

Hm....maybe Sauron might even be a creature that is not native to Middle-Earth. This, however, could bring up entirely different theories to common belief. It would be amazing if it were true, but what are the odds? 

I don't know, but if it mentions anything about Sauron's Race in _The Silmarillion_ or other books (_Unfinished Tales, History of Middle Earth, etc._) or appendixes that Tolkien created, please mention them here. I would guess it wouldn't, but I haven't read The Sil or some of the appendix.

I would like to see everyone's opinion on the subject of Sauron's Race. I'm sure that you all probably have different things that you have believed. Thank you for your opinion. I have been stumped about this topic for a long while.


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## Nicholas Blake (Mar 30, 2002)

"Of old, there was Sauron the *Maia*..."


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## Tao (Mar 30, 2002)

Maia? This sounds stupid, but please explain. (that is of the old, by the way.)


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## Nicholas Blake (Mar 30, 2002)

It's the same race of Gandalf and Saruman. Balrogs were Maiar corrupted by Morgoth.

http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm


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## Greenwood (Mar 30, 2002)

Tao

You will get Sauron's whole history in The Silmarillion.


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## Beorn (Mar 31, 2002)

Yes, that and everything else.

Maia in short were demi-gods. They could take whatever shape they pleased.

When Isildur took a little gift from Sauron (Ring and Finger), Sauron's physical form was destroyed because of the amount of his power that he had put into the ring. He stayed a while as a spirit in Mirkwood and other places that weren't so pretty while he occupied them. Anyway, he gained strength (through what, I don't know...Then again you can't call me a Tolkien Scholar) to form again. He chose a lidless eye because he could see all of Middle-earth, if he didn't pay attention to it.

So, naturally, if Sauron got his ring back (I wonder about the finger sometimes too...) he could regain any form he liked, and therefore be all powerful and take over the world.


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## Nicholas Blake (Mar 31, 2002)

Beorn, you are wrong on only one thing. Sauron did not take the form of a Lidless Eye after he left Mirkwood. He DID have a real human-like form, with hands (Four fingers on one of them). In one of Tolkeins books (The Silmarilon maybe?) it says, (paraphrasing), "Sauron took the form of greater than man size, but not gigantic."

So, the Lidless Eye is not really Saurons form. I think of more as a metaphor for his awareness of the ring...


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## Tao (Mar 31, 2002)

Thanks for clearing this up. I'll read the Silmarillion soon. Thanks again everyone for helping. I feel so stupid.


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## Úlairi (Mar 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Beorn _
> *Yes, that and everything else.
> 
> Maia in short were demi-gods. They could take whatever shape they pleased.
> ...



Beorn, Maia were not *demi-gods*, they were Ainur of lesser *degree* than the Valar. In greek mythology demi-gods were *mortals* with *god-like* strength and the Maia are definitely not mortals. The Maia are gods, or lesser gods who are servants of the greater gods if you will. They have the same abilities as the Valar, except they are not as strong nor as powerful. Nicholas Blake was also right in saying that Sauron could take both the form of a man and a Lidless Eye but he left Mirkwood in the form of a man, I believe twice the size.


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## Beorn (Mar 31, 2002)

Actually, it's a few definitions:

Mythology. 
1.A male being, often the offspring of a god and a mortal, who has some but not all of the powers of a god. 
2. An inferior deity; a minor god. 
3. A deified man. 
4. A person who is highly honored or revered. 

I was refering to 2.


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## Úlairi (Apr 1, 2002)

I still am correct however, in saying what I posted previously, it seems that you were lucky that you had a dictionary beside your computer, Beorn.


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## Nazgul_Lord (Apr 1, 2002)

In Sil it spells their name as Maiar


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## Beorn (Apr 1, 2002)

Maiar is plural, Maia is singular


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## Camille (Apr 1, 2002)

About Maiar, they were spirits that, as the Valar do, take shape like the children of Eru, or even as Beast (Sauron took the form of a great wolf in the sil) but anyway the point is that Sauron could take any form before the Fall of Numenor after that he was not able to take any fair form only dark ones, I dont remember wheter is at that point he took the eye form, but that was not only the only one he could take.
do not feel stupid Tao it is ok to ask questions.


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## Grond (Apr 1, 2002)

Let's not get testy everyone. The easiest parallal to explain the Ainur is the biblical one. In it:

Eru = God
Valar = Arch-angels such as Michael, Gabriel and Lucifer (before his fall)
Maiar = Angels (run of the mill normal winged guys)

As you can see, both the Valar and the Maiar are offsprings of the thought of Eru and are lesser dieties. Both Valar and Maiar are jointly referred to as the Ainur (translated as the "Holy Ones").


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## Úlairi (Apr 5, 2002)

Manwe = Jesus? Anyone agree, seeing as Manwe was the chief of the Valar or perhaps Manwe = St. Michael, the arch-angel now?


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## Lord Melkor (Apr 5, 2002)

Following the Paradise Lost Manwe=Michael, Satan=Lucifer


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## Camille (Apr 5, 2002)

Do not agree manwe = jesus, The ME mithology has the good and evil stuff but I do not think that we can compare that so close to the Cristian religion


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## Úlairi (Apr 5, 2002)

Tolkien was Catholic and so am I. I am using these 'references' because I believe that Tolkien may actually have been referring to Jesus when he created Manwe, but it was only a suggestion.


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## Anamatar IV (Apr 6, 2002)

i actually think sauron of a wizard gone wrong. He can take any shape and practices scorcery. In the movie they depict him as an orc.


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## Úlairi (Apr 7, 2002)

What are you talking about? Sauron is a Maia of extreme power, higher than that of both Saruman and Gandalf. He is not just a mere Orc, where on earth did you get that one from?


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## Nicholas Blake (Apr 7, 2002)

lol

Sauron was that big dude with the armor, not an orc (No, Aragorn does not decapitate Sauron at the end)...

Seriously though, what do you mean amerxtremist, "as an orc"???


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## Úlairi (Apr 7, 2002)

Read LoTR mate!


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## Anamatar IV (Apr 7, 2002)

i did read lotr. I know that it says nothing of sauron and orcs. Ni the movie that dude coming out of the mud was sauron, right? Who was the guy saruman was talking to before the company was waylaid. Who was the guy that aragorn sliced and diced?


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## Tao (Apr 7, 2002)

*_sighhh_ * That was an orc. It was either Lúrtz (who is made up in the movie) or some other orc. No wait....that was Lúrtz. Do you think they should of made up a character for the movie?


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## Anamatar IV (Apr 7, 2002)

they completly played that part wrong. it wasnt one orc that killed boromir but all of the orcs, right?


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## Nicholas Blake (Apr 7, 2002)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Thats the funiest thing I have heard in months! You thought that Lurtz was Sauron? Mahahaha!

LOL


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## Úlairi (Apr 8, 2002)

Thanks for the laugh, that was great!


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## Camille (Apr 8, 2002)

, are you sure you read those books??
Well Ulairi about the Manwe Jesus thing, let me look a Tolkien letter were he said something about that, I will post it later


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## Lantarion (Apr 8, 2002)

Welcome to this..friendly forum, Amerxtremist. 
But although it doesn't directly state in the LotR what Sauron is (I think, or then they do), it is quite obvious (sorry) that he was not an Orc. Have you read the Silmarillion? If not, do. It tell sall about everything you don't know about.


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## Anamatar IV (Apr 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Nicholas Blake _
> *HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
> 
> Thats the funiest thing I have heard in months! You thought that Lurtz was Sauron? Mahahaha!
> ...


NO i thought the guy coming out of the mud was sauron. Yes i read the simarillion as well. What im saying is the movie made me beleive that sauron was an orc. How was i supposed to know it was a MADE UP charecter.


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## Camille (Apr 8, 2002)

well if you have read the sil you must know that Sauron was a maia not an orc, or maybe you read it a long time ago, anyway he is not an orc


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## Anamatar IV (Apr 9, 2002)

i never said he was an orc!!!!



> i actually think sauron of a wizard gone wrong. He can take any shape and practices scorcery. In the movie they depict him as an orc.



Gandalf and Saruman are also maia (aka wizards) right? IN THE MOVIE! I said i thought that that guy was sauron.


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## Úlairi (Apr 10, 2002)

It was still hilarious!


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## Grond (Apr 10, 2002)

C'mon people. We have a reader here who didn't understand the movie. Can anyone fault him for that? The movie wasn't real clear and someone who has only read the books once might easily expect that Saruman would try to hatch Sauron and be in league with him. Let's not run off new members.


Amerxtremist, welcome to the forum and I hope you will continue to post. Normally, we aren't quite so sarcastic in correcting opinions and interpretations. Please stay and feel welcomed.


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## Lantarion (Apr 10, 2002)

What's wrong with sarcasm? It's my code! 
And to add yet another evil comment, Maiar (_Maiar_, pl.;_Maia_, singular) were not wizards: the Istari were. But they were Maiar, so I suppose you're right. Whatever.


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## Úlairi (Apr 11, 2002)

And a good code too, and Pontifex, my edit button doesn't seem to work and don't ask me! I don't know why so don't bug me about it OK?


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## Lantarion (Apr 11, 2002)

Whoo, sorr-ee, Mr. Ulairi. Try fitting all your thoughts into a single post and I won't NEED to mention it to you.


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## Gil-Galad (Apr 11, 2002)

Grond as absolutely rihgt.
Eru = God 
Valar = Arch-angels such as Michael, Gabriel and Lucifer (before his fall) 
Maiar = Angels (run of the mill normal winged guys) 
It would be said that Sauron is just an angel who has followed Morgoth(an Arch-angel.I think a comparisson with Satan=Morgoth is probably correct).


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## Nicholas Blake (Apr 12, 2002)

I find it odd that amerxtremist says that "i never said he was an orc!!!!", yet directly after that, he posts a quote of his own that says "In the movie they depict him as an orc."

Wow, someone was not paying attention. I haven't read the Silmarillion, and I've only read LOTR once, and I understood it...


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## Nicholas Blake (Apr 12, 2002)

Also, not all maia are wizards. The Istari (Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast, etc.) are wizards, who are maia.

The Balrog is a maia too, and I'm sure you didn't imagine it as a wizard...


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## Nicholas Blake (Apr 12, 2002)

And another thing! You posted this:



> __________________
> Originally posted by Nicholas Blake:
> 
> HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
> ...



Guy coming from out of mud= Lurtz.

For some reason, I highly doubt you have read LOTR...


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## Úlairi (Apr 12, 2002)

Come on Nick, some of the people out there are intellectually challenged, no need to rub it in, I can find many posts you have done wrong in the past. Pontifex, my mind is always bubbling with LotR thoughts and I can't help it if sometimes brilliance just forces me to post it again correctly!


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## Anamatar IV (Apr 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Nicholas Blake _
> *I find it odd that amerxtremist says that "i never said he was an orc!!!!", yet directly after that, he posts a quote of his own that says "In the movie they depict him as an orc."
> 
> Wow, someone was not paying attention. I haven't read the Silmarillion, and I've only read LOTR once, and I understood it...  *



Okay...this is the last time. I said i considered him a wizard which is half true. Then i said in the movie. Key words n the movie. Another key word they. In the movie they depicted him as an orc.


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## Úlairi (Apr 12, 2002)

Lurtz=Orc

Sauron=Dark Lord=big bad guy that no one likes.

End of story so cut it out you two.


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## Grond (Apr 12, 2002)

To everyone on this thread. I will not tolerate anyone attacking a person. Calling someone a liar or insinuating they are is personal attack. The reason this thread was started was because Amerxtremist had a misconception about Sauron. We have informed him of the correct answer and the places where he can reread the information to refresh his memory. Case closed. Quit the nastiness. I will not post this warning again... I will simply delete the thread and all posts therein as well as pulverizing any offending parties. I am "Melkor's Hammer" (emphasis on Hammer) and this type of sarcasm is not welcome and will not be tolerated on the forum.


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## Úlairi (Apr 13, 2002)

Here here Grond! I completely agree and btw, I love it when you're serious!


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