# Were the Elves omniscient in Valinor?



## Phantom718 (Nov 22, 2019)

Two questions that have bugged me for awhile. 

1. When an elf arrives in the Undying Lands, do they become omniscient?
2. Do they maintain their individual identities or become just a "blank" spirit? As in, when Legolas finally sailed there, could he just walk up to, say, Tuor or Fingolfin and start shooting the breeze over a beer and they'd know who each other was?


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## Olorgando (Nov 22, 2019)

The answer to the first question is a very definite no. Alcuin can probably provide you with oodles of quotes from the legendarium, maybe more that you care for! 
In a nutshell: Not even Manwë and Námo (Mandos) together, not even all of the 14 Valar and Valier together, not even if all of the Maiar pitched in, would the Powers in Arda know everything about it. Only Eru is omniscient, and especially about the Eruhini, Elves and apparently even more so Men, the "Arda-Ainur" have some pretty extensive blank spots about their fate. With the Elves being pegged the odd notch below the "Arda-Ainur" … you get my drift.

The second question is intriguing: how would you imagine a "blank" spirit? That old "define …" question again.
I was going to protest about Tuor being in Valinor, but then there are "it is saids" about him being counted among the Elder Children (swapping places with Lúthien, one almost has the impression). Fingolfin (and lots of other Noldor) "went back" to Valinor via Mandos, so it might be a question if they had "served their time" already (I believe JRRT saw the Halls of Mandos a bit like a purgatory). But with Glorfindel having even returned to M-e, Fingolfin should certainly be out and about again.

The question would be (having ruled out "omniscience" above) how would the Elves of Valinor get news about Middle-earth, and how the other was around? Legolas is "only" a Third-Age-born Elf, so anything he knows from before that would have to have been taught him. But him living east of the Misty Mountains? Tutoring by Elrond, Galadriel and Cirdan (in increasing order of age) would be needed. In Valinor, even Manwë, despite the Eagles and subservient birds, does not seem to have gotten news of everything going on in Middle-earth. And how would any (never mind all) of this information be spread around? In CoE, we have a humorous thread often featuring "reporter" from all sorts of imaginary newspapers, though mostly (not solely) in Middle-earth. Who would staff the "Valinor Daily News"? Be editors, editor-in-chief, publisher? For distribution, who takes the place of the newspaper boys on their Sting-ray bikes that I faintly remember? Might be an interesting take for an RPG, turning Valinor into something resembling those 1950s/1960s family (sitcom) shows … 🤣


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## Phantom718 (Nov 22, 2019)

Allow me to clarify the first question. I suppose if I said "limited omniscience" that would make more sense . I didn't intend the question to be, are they omniscient as in the way Eru is. I was thinking of only how they are in Valinor (free from Mandos). That regard led to my second question: Would they all know each other when they are doing whatever they do in Valinor?

As far as Valinor getting news of ME, couldnt the master-stone in Tol Eressea be used to communicate with the palantir in Elostirion? Or were those two stones only used to "glimpse" each other?


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## Alcuin (Nov 22, 2019)

Thanks, Ologandro, but I’ll pass on “oodles of quotes from the legendarium” today; just a couple. 

Phantom718, I think the Elves of Eldamar (few of them lived beyond the Pelori in Valinor proper, and none permanently: “For all those of elven-race, even the Vanyar…, must breathe at times the outer air and the wind that comes over the sea from the lands of their birth.” (_Silmarillion_, “Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor”)) had to learn even as Men learn. They don’t merely “intuit” matters not immediately in their grasp, though Elvish senses are by all accounts more acute than those of Men, particularly in sight and hearing. 

The point you raise about the master palantír of Tol Eressëa is well taken, though. The Elostirion palantír was matched to it exclusively: it was the means by which Elendil and his father Amandil before him were able to maintain communication with their friends in Tol Eressëa after Ar-Gimilzôr forbade the Eldar to sail to Númenor and moved the Faithful to Rómenna to ensure that they did not receive visitors in secret: that was the original purpose of the palantíri, I think, though their Elvish allies also provided them with six more palantíri to aid in their communication with one another during their persecution by the Kings’ Men. 

After the death of Elendil, none of the Dúnedain used the stone of the Tower Hills to commune with the Eldar ever again. Instead, the tower became a place of pilgrimage for the Eldar, especially the Noldor, I suppose, to look into the stone and see, if they might, a glimpse of Taniquetil afar off. Gildor Inglorion and his companions were returning from just such a pilgrimage when they chanced, as we would put it, upon Frodo, Sam, and Pippin after Khamûl the Nazgûl had sniffed them out. 

I don’t know how much information passed from the Elves of Middle-earth to the Elves of Tol Eressëa and Eldamar in this fashion. However, there was a more or less steady stream of Eldar passing over the Sea from Lindon to Tol Eressëa, and news was no doubt brought by the emigrants to their kinsfolk in the Far West. 

In the Second Age, however, until Ar-Gimilzôr flatly forbade the Eldar to visit (and presumably began to punish those who received them), news from Middle-earth could pass freely to Valinor, and also any messages from Valinor to Middle-earth, by way of the Dúnedain in Númenor and Middle-earth. 

But I will join Olorgando in believing that if Finarfin happened upon Legolas, he might recognize the younger Elf as an immigrant from Middle-earth and presume based upon the evidence at hand who he was: I suppose the return of someone of such importance was known throughout Elvish society in Valinor. Then he might greet Legolas by name; but any information he possessed about Legolas’ exploits and adventures would have arrived mostly by what we would call mundane means: by word of mouth or written word. 

A final note, however: The Eldar practiced a means of communicating mind-to-mind, directly, that they called _ósanwe-kenta_. If you recall, on their return from the marriage of Arwen and Aragorn, before Elrond and his followers parted from Galadriel and her followers, Elrond, Galadriel, Celeborn, and Gandalf (and presumably Glorfindel and perhaps others as well) sat as “grey figures, carved in stone, memorials of forgotten things… For they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to mind; and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their thoughts went to and fro.” (_Return of the King_, “Homeward Bound”) This was, I suppose, the means by which people using two palantíri for communication were able to have a conversation; but it was not an open door to wander about the mind of another, as Pippin’s experience with Sauron reveals. 

When Elrond departed from Middle-earth, he took the palantír of Elostirion with him, forever severing communication between Middle-earth and Valinor.


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## Phantom718 (Nov 22, 2019)

Great stuff there 

I just always wondered what the daily elven (and the very few select mortals there) life was like in Valinor. I imagine it was pure bliss and happiness. Yet at the same time I sort of empathize with those in ME (if that's possible to do with a fictional character(s)), in that I feel sadness, envy and wonder all at once about what's happening across the sea 🤪


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## Phantom718 (Feb 21, 2020)

Similar question re: Elrond and Earendil...

So, Earendil is forever roaming the heavens in his ship. Does that mean Elrond could or could not see him/speak with him when he sailed west at the end of the TA? 

It's all open-ended and hypothetical, but you'd think once he sailed out of the circles of the world, Elrond could visit his family, right? Or is Earendil permanently sailing the heavens, unable to personally interact with anyone?


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## Olorgando (Feb 21, 2020)

About Eärendil the Sil states that "Far he journeyed in [Vingilot, hallowed by the Valar], even into the starless voids; but most often was he seen at morning or at evening, glimmering in sunrise or sunset [= Venus], as he came back to Valinor from voyages beyond the confines of the world."
For Elwing: "And it is said that Elwing learned the tongues of birds, who herself had once worn their shape [_fleeing from the sack of the Havens of Sirion by the remaining sons of Fëanor, bearing the Silmaril to Eärendil out at sea_]; and they taught her the craft of flight, and her wings were of white and silver-grey. And at times, when Eärendil returning drew near again to Arda, she would fly to meet him, even as she had flown long ago, when she was rescued from the sea. Then the far-sighted among the Elves that dwelt in the Lonely Isle would see her like a white bird, shining. rose-stained in the sunset, as she soared in joy to greet the _coming of Vingilot to haven_."

So at least Elwing and Eärendil continued to be able to interact. I see no direct reason why Elrond could not have visited with mom to meet both mom and dad ...


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## Phantom718 (Feb 21, 2020)

Excellent, Olorgando...thanks!

See, this is the kind of hypothetical stuff I wonder about. It's like fiction inside fiction inside fiction  but fascinating. Like just now, I thought about if Elrond were to introduce Legolas & Gimli to Earendil? "Hey guys, here's my Dad...he's kind of a legend."

Or, if he introduced Frodo to him...after all, he carried part of his light in the vial from Galardriel.

A book or film of what happened in Valinor after everyone sailed over there would be interesting.


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## Olorgando (Feb 21, 2020)

I don't know about a film! An audience hooked on blockbusters, be they PJ's six battle-heavy fanfics, be it any superhero stuff usually leaving at least one major metropolis basically in ruins, Kung-Fu films, thrillers, Game of Thrones, Vampires / Werewolves, horror films, war movies, disaster movies, galactic empires, telenovelas ...

They would probably consider anything about a Valinor without Melkor b o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o r i n g!!! 😴😴😴
I also don't see much of a Mel Brooks / Monty Python / Jim Carrey angle in the location, either.


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## Phantom718 (Feb 21, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> I don't know about a film! An audience hooked on blockbusters, be they PJ's six battle-heavy fanfics, be it any superhero stuff usually leaving at least one major metropolis basically in ruins, Kung-Fu films, thrillers, Game of Thrones, Vampires / Werewolves, horror films, war movies, disaster movies, galactic empires, telenovelas ...
> 
> They would probably consider anything about a Valinor without Melkor b o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o r i n g!!! 😴😴😴
> I also don't see much of a Mel Brooks / Monty Python / Jim Carrey angle in the location, either.



Easy fix perhaps.

Such a film could begin with how life in Valinor is at the end of the TA. Then the story could shift and be told/narrated from the perspective of one of the Valar, with the bulk of the film (featuring Melkor) being shown in flashback 

"...things weren't always so peaceful here. A long time ago..."


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## Olorgando (Feb 21, 2020)

Ermyes … but for that, you'd need the film rights to The Sil (which Amazon definitely does not have for its TV series). With Christopher Tolkien having passed away, there might be some movement within the Tolkien Company / Tolkien Estate / Tolkien Trust and whatnot other entities in granting such rights. Christopher was certainly dead against anything of the sort, and had a bit of a falling out with his oldest son Simon (by his first marriage to Faith née Faulconbridge) over the LoTR films. They do appear to have had a reconciliation.
Checking out the slightly confusing list of Tolkien "entities", the family members who are directors / executors / trustees etc. include Christopher's sister Priscilla (90), second wife Baillie (78), oldest nephew (son of older Brother Michael) Michael George Reuel Tolkien (76), and Simon (61). Looks like they might need to get some of the younger family members involved sooner or later ...


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## Random_Scholar (Mar 30, 2020)

Apparently, they were not, as they screwed up this reconquest of Silmarils so badly.


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