# Mortality is a white elephant



## Boffer Balsashield (Apr 22, 2021)

It occurred to me the other day that Tolkien's claim that mortality was a gift to humanity seems rather strange, since no one wants it. Humans yearn to lose it (and hobbits and dwarves seem like they'd just as soon do the same). They only ones with a choice in the matter are the elves, and almost none (3 only, that I can think of) have ever chosen mortality. Considering that it's supposed to be a gift from God Eä, could this be the ultimate white elephant?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 22, 2021)

Maybe more of a mathom. 😀


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## Olorgando (Apr 22, 2021)

Together with evil the topic that has defeated every theologian of every creed known and unknown.


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## GreatQueen (Apr 22, 2021)

Well, it depends of what an elf do with their immortality and life. I suppose that a depressed elf could kill themselves by choosing mortality like some humans commit suicide?

As mentioned in other topic it's quite unknown what most of them do in their free time but I suppose that they don't stay all day doing nothing otherwise would be a very useless existence.


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## Alcuin (Apr 22, 2021)

*Elves* called mortality the “Gift of Men”, or better said, the Gift of _Eru to_ Men. And from the Elves’ point of view, it was. 

A few things to remember. In a BBC interview, Tolkien remarked that _The Lord of the Rings_, and presumably all his works (with the exception of _The Hobbit_, I suppose) were ultimately about _death_. Tolkien is examining death from two perspectives, the Human perspective that we have, and an imagined Elvish or deathless perspective. 

Elves *cannot* escape Arda, not even if their bodies are destroyed. If unhoused, their spirits are at best consigned to the silent halls of Mandos, the Halls of Waiting, where in darkness and deep silence they contemplate all their actions while awaiting reëmbodiment; at worst they face the counter-summons of Morgoth and his followers: the evil spirit that animated the Barrow-wight might be one such Elven spirit consigned to dark service by the Witch-king, for instance. Elves can be killed, they can die of ill-treatment and of grief, but they can never depart Arda itself. As the years lengthen, they muse upon all that they have done, and deep regret sets in: The Elves are doomed to sadness and regret, remembering all that has transpired, all their missed opportunities, all their failures, all their works that have passed away. To the Elves, the prospect of escape from Arda and from the deep sadness and regret that burdens them constantly is a great _gift_. 

Men, of course, see things differently. Andreth tells Finrod (“The Debate of Finrod and Andreth”, _Morgoth’s Ring_) that Men were not originally doomed to die, that this curse, as Men see it, is the result of their rebellion against Eru by accepting Morgoth as god. Men desire to remain in Arda, embodied and living as do the Elves. This desire led even the good Númenóreans to practice embalming the dead to retain the body’s appearance and prevent its decay, but evil Númenóreans to rebel against the Valar, even to attempt an invasion of Valinor, resulting in the Downfall of Númenor and the Exile of the Faithful survivors to Middle-earth. Yet they retained the “Old Hope”, the belief that one day Eru Himself would enter Arda and correct their fallen status. As Aragorn told Arwen as he died, Men “are not bound for ever to the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory.” 

Lúthien and Arwen alone among the Elves are known for certain to have became Mortal and perished forever from the world. It would seem (though we are not told for certain) that Tuor alone among Men was numbered among the Eldar and remained with them. The Half-elves were granted _irrevocable_ choices to be numbered either among Men or the Eldar: Elwing chose the Eldar, and Eärendil, who preferred to be among Men, chose likewise so that he would not be separated from her; Elrond chose Elvendom, Elros mortality, Arwen chose mortality, and though Tolkien says that Elladan’s and Elrohir’s choices are unknown, it can be argued that they also chose mortality when they remained in Middle-earth when their father departed.


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## Elthir (Apr 23, 2021)

And concerning the "ultimate" death of Elves, Tolkien noted (in his letters): *"But what "the end of 
the world" portended for it or for themselves they did not know (though they no doubt had theories). Neither had they of course any special information concerning what "death" portended for Men. They believed that it meant "liberation from the circles of the world", and was in that respect to them enviable."

"And they would point out to Men who envied them that a dread of ultimate loss, though it may be indefinitely remote, is not necessarily the easier to bear if it is in the end ineluctably certain: a burden may become heavier the longer it is borne."*

And another notable comment from Tolkien in _On Fairy Stories_: *"Fairy-stories are made by men not by fairies. The Human-stories of the elves are doubtless full of the Escape from Deathlessness."*


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## Elthir (Apr 23, 2021)

Also, shouldn't if be *Oliphaunt*?


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## Alcuin (Apr 23, 2021)

Elthir said:


> And concerning the "ultimate" death of Elves, Tolkien noted (in his letters): *"But what "the end of
> the world" portended for it or for themselves they did not know (though they no doubt had theories). Neither had they of course any special information concerning what "death" portended for Men. They believed that it meant "liberation from the circles of the world", and was in that respect to them enviable."
> 
> "And they would point out to Men who envied them that a dread of ultimate loss, though it may be indefinitely remote, is not necessarily the easier to bear if it is in the end ineluctably certain: a burden may become heavier the longer it is borne."*
> ...


During Finrod’s dialogue with Andreth in “The Debate of Finrod and Andreth” from _Morgoth’s Ring_), Finrod describes the fate of the Elves as he understands it:
​Thus far, then, I perceive that the great difference between Elves and Men is in the speed of the end. In this only. For if you deem that for the Quendi there is no death ineluctable, you err.​​[N]one of us know … the future of Arda, or how long it is ordained to endure. But it will not endure for ever. … The One only has no limits. Arda, and Eä itself, must therefore be bounded. [We Elves] are still in the first ages of our being, and the end is far off. As maybe among you death may seem to a young man in his strength; save that we have long years of life and thought already behind us. But the end will come. That we all know. And then we must die; we must perish utterly, it seems, for we belong to Arda (in _hröa_ and _fëa_). And beyond that what? "The going out to no return," as you say; "the uttermost end, the irremediable loss"?​​Our hunter is slow-footed, but he never loses the trail. Beyond the day when he shall blow the mort, we have no certainty, no knowledge. And no one speaks to us of hope.​​… And yet at least ours is slow-footed, you would say? … True. But it is not clear that a foreseen doom long delayed is in all ways a lighter burden than one that comes soon.​​By the end of their debate, however, he takes hope in the Old Hope of Men, that Eru would Himself enter into Arda and correct its marring by Melkor, restoring all things as they should be aright.

A footnote to this passage notes that the _mort_ is a “note sounded on a horn at the death of the quarry.” The passage “in _hröa_ and _fëa_” means literally “in body and soul.” “Ineluctable” means “inescapable,” and the Quendi, of course, are the Elves.


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## grendel (Apr 23, 2021)

Elthir said:


> Also, shouldn't if be *Oliphaunt*?


a white Mumak? Nahhhh....


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 24, 2021)

Maybe after the "scrubbing bubbles" got to it. . .


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## Olorgando (Apr 24, 2021)

grendel said:


> a white Mumak? Nahhhh....





Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Maybe after the "scrubbing bubbles" got to it. . .


.. which immediately led a disgusted Sauron to snarl "Paint it black!"
... a "Meme" inspiring a group of minstrels, in the early Seventh Age, who certainly looked like refugees from Mordor ...


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## Alcuin (Apr 25, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> .. which immediately led a disgusted Sauron to snarl "Paint it black!"
> ... a "Meme" inspiring a group of minstrels, in the early Seventh Age, who certainly looked like refugees from Mordor ...







Keith Richards was there when the Ring was destroyed. With the Mouth of Sauron, Mick Jagger.


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## Olorgando (Apr 26, 2021)

Alcuin said:


> Keith Richards was there when the Ring was destroyed. With the Mouth of Sauron, Mick Jagger.


Nah, he just *looks* that old.
But then the (later) "Glimmer Twins" did also write "Sympathy For The Devil".
So perhaps we should give them the nickname "The Ang Band". 😁


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## Aldarion (Apr 26, 2021)

Boffer Balsashield said:


> It occurred to me the other day that Tolkien's claim that mortality was a gift to humanity seems rather strange, since no one wants it. Humans yearn to lose it (and hobbits and dwarves seem like they'd just as soon do the same). They only ones with a choice in the matter are the elves, and almost none (3 only, that I can think of) have ever chosen mortality. Considering that it's supposed to be a gift from God Eä, could this be the ultimate white elephant?


Elves do not have a "choice in the matter". Except for suicide, which is a sin.


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## Alcuin (Apr 26, 2021)

Aldarion said:


> Elves do not have a "choice in the matter". Except for suicide, which is a sin.


Elves cannot escape Arda even by suicide. The _fëa_ of an Elf that killed himself would be in the same situation as one that died, say, in battle: either it would obey the summons to the Halls of Mandos, or it would remain houseless in Middle-earth, vulnerable to a counter-summons by a follower of Morgoth or Sauron. 

Two Elves voluntarily surrendered their lives. Míriel, first wife of Finwë and mother of Fëanor, gave up her life, and Lúthien chose to give up hers to follow Beren to Mandos before he departed Arda forever. While the choice of Míriel was taken freely – she “was consumed in spirit and body, and after his birth she yearned for rest from the labor of living” (“Earliest Version Of The Story Of Finwë And Míriel”, _Morgoth’s Ring_) – it was also seen as a fault, according to “Laws and Customs of the Eldar”. (_ibid._) Yavanna noted in the debate of the Valar concerning Finwë and Míriel that, “The failing of … Míriel may … be ascribed … to the evil of Arda Marred, [making] her death ... unnatural.” But to the willing departure of Lúthien from her body no darkness is connected other than the death of Beren her beloved, or so Tolkien would seem to imply. 

By the way, *Boffer Balsashield*, I note (by way of Aldarion’s quotation) that you mention three Elves chose mortality. Lúthien and Arwen come immediately to mind. Are you referring to Elros the Half-elf as the third?


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## Boffer Balsashield (May 20, 2021)

Elthir said:


> Also, shouldn't if be *Oliphaunt*?


I can think of that in Sam's voice! "A white oliphaunt! If only the gaffer could see me now."



Alcuin said:


> Elves cannot escape Arda even by suicide. The _fëa_ of an Elf that killed himself would be in the same situation as one that died, say, in battle: either it would obey the summons to the Halls of Mandos, or it would remain houseless in Middle-earth, vulnerable to a counter-summons by a follower of Morgoth or Sauron.
> 
> Two Elves voluntarily surrendered their lives. Míriel, first wife of Finwë and mother of Fëanor, gave up her life, and Lúthien chose to give up hers to follow Beren to Mandos before he departed Arda forever. While the choice of Míriel was taken freely – she “was consumed in spirit and body, and after his birth she yearned for rest from the labor of living” (“Earliest Version Of The Story Of Finwë And Míriel”, _Morgoth’s Ring_) – it was also seen as a fault, according to “Laws and Customs of the Eldar”. (_ibid._) Yavanna noted in the debate of the Valar concerning Finwë and Míriel that, “The failing of … Míriel may … be ascribed … to the evil of Arda Marred, [making] her death ... unnatural.” But to the willing departure of Lúthien from her body no darkness is connected other than the death of Beren her beloved, or so Tolkien would seem to imply.
> 
> By the way, *Boffer Balsashield*, I note (by way of Aldarion’s quotation) that you mention three Elves chose mortality. Lúthien and Arwen come immediately to mind. Are you referring to Elros the Half-elf as the third?


Yes, I had Elros in mind. Didn't occur to me that he was a half-elf rather than a full one.


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## 1stvermont (May 20, 2021)

Boffer Balsashield said:


> It occurred to me the other day that Tolkien's claim that mortality was a gift to humanity seems rather strange, since no one wants it. Humans yearn to lose it (and hobbits and dwarves seem like they'd just as soon do the same). They only ones with a choice in the matter are the elves, and almost none (3 only, that I can think of) have ever chosen mortality. Considering that it's supposed to be a gift from God Eä, could this be the ultimate white elephant?



Middle-earth is a creation marred, a corruption of the original. Elves age spiritually and are drawn to paradise across the seas and few decide not to go by the third age even before the war of the ring. 

Central to traditional Christian doctrine [held by Tolkien] is that both mankind, and the world we live in, are fallen. We no longer live in the original Eden created and intended by God. There was once no death or suffering for humans or animals. Death is not part of the plan; it is the enemy 1 Corinthians 15.26. And so it was in Middle-earth. In the late 1950's Tolkien wrote The Debate of Finrod and Andreth; in it, Andreth says that men, in the beginning, were born to "life everlasting" and "death is a thing unnatural."

Death is indeed an evil,_ but to continue in this fallen world for eternity is far worse_. Imagine being in a concentration camp or under torture with no hope of escape. Imagine a sickness or deformity that will never go away. Our modern world tells us that what we see is all we get, and to make the best of it. But from God's perspective, this sin-sick fallen world is so far from true reality; it should be driving us to eternity and our minds away from here. Death is, therefore, an escape from this world into life as it was meant to be, with no sorrow or suffering.

"_He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
Revelations 21.4_

This is why the elves thought death was God's gift to man. And when the men Númenór were upset over the human race dying while elves and Valar did not, the Valar replied, "thus you escape, and leave the world and are not bound by it, in hope or in weariness. Which of us, therefore, should envy the others." Living forever in a fallen world brings weariness as it did the elves, and the paradise we all desire could not be accomplished. Likewise, the medieval Saint Francis, in his Canticle of the Sun writes, "Be praised, my Lord, through_ our sister Bodily Death._" From this point of view, death is a gift. Talk with almost every human in our world who is 85 plus and you will find a very different perspective on life, many are simply "ready to go" and felt they lived a good life.

Tolkien is taking this stance from Genesis 3 22-24. God kicked out Adam and Eve of the garden because if they were to eat of the fruit of the tree of [everlasting] life, they would go on living forever as fallen, corrupt, sinful human beings; this was not God's plan for them, he would not accept evil to continue forever.

Writing in a letter to his son Christopher J.R.R said, "I do not feel either ashamed or dubious on the Eden "myth"...certainly there was an Eden on this very unhappy earth…we all long for it...our whole nature is soiled with the sense of exile." Mankind was never to be at home in this fallen world. We were made for fellowship with God and paradise. Philippians 3.20 says that our "citizenship is in heaven," and Ecclesiastes 3.11 says God "set eternity in the human heart." In Confessions, the famous Catholic Saint Augustine wrote, "thou hast made us for thyself, O Lord, and our heart is restless until it finds its rest in thee." So it is with Eru, the God of Middle-earth, who has done the same. We read in Morgoth's Ring Ainulindale D "therefore he [Eru] willed that the hearts of man should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein." We shall never find what our heart desires. That can only come about by being where we were eternally created to be, with our creator in paradise. C.S Lewis put it this way.

_"Creatures are not born with desires unless satisfaction for these desires exists. A baby feels hunger; well, there is such a thing as food. A duckling wants to swim; well, there is such a thing as water. Men feel sexual desire; well, there is such a thing as sex. If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world."_



Olorgando said:


> Together with evil the topic that has defeated every theologian of every creed known and unknown.



I strongly disagree. We do tend to get political and threads shut down on our account, but the questions was answered way back in Genesis. It was an answer accepted by Tolkien and implemented in ME as well.

What has stumped certain worldviews is how in an atheistic purposeless lawless moral relativistic meaningless universe, could produce "evil" such as death. In other words, if there is no higher moral right and wrong, how can death be wrong or evil to object to? in order to do so you must claim it is wrong but you can offer no justification outside your own feelings the result of random chemicals combined for a survival advantage. So if other random chemicals [Hitlers] decide exterminating jews is a moral good, who is correct if any? if Hitler had won the war killed off opposition indoctrinated via schools, would then nazi dogma become morally good and death as well? if you say no i have no other authority than your random chemicals in your brain to assume you are correct. With no god there is no higher moral law to appeal to.


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## Olorgando (May 20, 2021)

1stvermont said:


> I strongly disagree.


Yes, we strongly disagree. I'll leave it at that.


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## 1stvermont (May 20, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> Yes, we strongly disagree. I'll leave it at that.



Probably best for all involved lol.


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## Olorgando (May 20, 2021)

1stvermont said:


> Probably best for all involved lol.


Blood pressure of the mods too, I'll wager ...


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## Erestor Arcamen (May 20, 2021)

Heh, as long as yinz are amicable than we're happy .


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## Olorgando (May 20, 2021)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> Heh, as long as yinz are amicable than we're happy .


There was this post of yours a while ago (I'm surprised I found it) :



https://www.thetolkienforum.com/threads/welcome-to-our-new-site-owner-operator.28571/post-525879



Erm --- ? 🤨


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