# Fingolfin Vs. Feanor



## sousuke22

I have read the Silmarillion three times the past 2 years and i always wondered who would win in a fight b/t Fingolfin(fought morgoth in one on one combat) and Feanor(Fire-Spirit who fought the Balrog and was killed by Gothmog)

I used to think Feanor would but now i'm not so sure b/c they don't specify on how many balrog he was fighting and how long he lasted.... 


I think i might go with Feanor though!


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## Astaldo

Although I like more Feanor, I think that Fingolfin would win the fight.


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## Ithrynluin

It's difficult to measure one's prowess in battle based on how many foes were fought, or how great and fierce the adversary. Fëanor fought Gothmog, who was probably one of the most powerful warriors on the side of evil, but he failed to defeat him, whereas Ecthelion succeeded. Does that mean he is a greater warrior than Fëanor (Well, I'd say yes, but that would be a perfect illustration of how my dislike of Fëanor shines through )?

Based on this quote:



> _The Silmarillion: Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië_
> Finwë was King of the Noldor. The sons of Finwë were Fëanor, and Fingolfin, and Finarfin; but the mother of Fëanor was Míriel Serindë, whereas the mother of Fingolfin and Finarfin was Indis of the Vanyar. Fëanor was the mightiest in skill of word and of hand, more learned than his brothers; his spirit burned as a flame. Fingolfin was the strongest, the most steadfast, and the most valiant. Finarfin was the fairest, and the most wise of heart;



I'd opt for Fingolfin when it comes to who's the better warrior.


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## Elemmire

I'd bet on Fingolfin, for the reasons stated by Ithrynluin.

Also, battles are not always won by brawn alone, and when it comes to strategy, I'd still give Fingolfin the edge. Feanor may be more "learned," but his sense of strategy leaves much to be desired... Fingolfin may have made a hideous decision when he went to battle with Morgoth, but IMO, Feanor was much worse (Losgar, the Dagor-nuin-Giliath ???)

I think that Feanor's inclination towards rash action would count against him.


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## Garwen

Finarfin, since he is the only one who lived. Ha ha just kidding Anyway
Feanor seemed to have the hotter temper of the two. However
Fingolfin had more patients ( did I spell that right?) so he'd think things through. 
Its hard to tell. 
I'd go with Fingolfin.


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## Astaldo

Ok all bets will finish at Sunday noon. At 21:00 we will have the fight of the two contestants. On the blue corner Fingolfin and on the red corner Feanor.


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## Astaldo

So I guess I don't have a chance to win the trip. Great unlucky again


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## Draugerruin

Fingolfin probably, however at one point early in the history, Feanor threatens to kill him if he keeps trying to take his place. I dunno, he seemed pretty confident that he'd win the fight, but then again, he tried to charge Angband, too.


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## Ithrynluin

Fëanor _always_ seemed 'pretty confident', which in his case translates to 'rash, arrogant and reckless of others'.


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## Nirnaeth

Going with Feanor as he would probably be the only one armed. Ooooh!


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## Inderjit S

Fëanor because he would have wanted to win more-he had a fiery temper (which ithrynluin secretly likes, for all his anti-Fëanor rants) and he would have rushed in all fiery and sexy and beat Fingolfin. Though Fingolfin was the better warrior.  

And Fëanor had been fighting a few Barlogs beforehand too. Ecthelion had Tuor's help too.


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## Confusticated

What if Fingolfin slew Feanor and the sons of Finarfin joined in with him and his sons in defense against the sons of Feanor: Fingolfin, Fingon, Turgon, Finrod, Orodreth, Angrod, and Aegnor versus Maedhros, Maglor, Caranthir, Curufin, Celegorm, Armod and Amras?

We'll say its a head to head confrontation on the open plain.

Ah heck, lets toss Aredhel in there too. 

Okay, she could take down Orodreth.  hee hee hee!

---
Inder, remember to point out how some were already burnt up or were not actually Finarfin's son. hee hee!


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## Inderjit S

The sons of Fëanor would get whooped-the twins were pretty useless, and the Elves they were up against, with the exception of Orodreth are all stronger than the sons of Fëanor with the exception of Maedhros. 

And Nom is back! Huzzah!


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## Arvegil

Except for Maedhros and Maglor, and arguably Celegorm, none of the Sons of Feanor really seem distinguish themselves in battle. Angrod and Aegnor, on the other hand, are rather noted in that way. I suspect that they tip the balance to the non-Feanorians, despite the alleged incapacity of Orodreth.


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## Ithrynluin

Just where does all the anti-Orodreth sentiment (aside from joking) stem from? Do his indecisiveness and gentle spirit in dealing with his kindred at Nargothrond indicate that he would make a lame warrior when confronting Orks?



Inderjit S said:


> with the exception of Maedhros.



Who would get beaten into the dust by Galadriel. Not so tall anymore, eh Maitimo?


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## AuRoR

Hi there.This is my first post on this cite and I've chosen this thread because of my fascination with these two fellas.To be honest,I think that Feanor would win the battle.It is said that Fingolfin was the strongest etc,but i beleive that he wouldn't be able to stop the heart that burns with that kind of flame.
Fingolfin fought Morgoth and gave him pain,but Feanor fought with Balrogs after a hard battle with Orcs and furious war.I think that if he didn't feel tired after that[by this I mean that he could still fight with full strenght] he was the strongest warrior.I never found the quote that says how many Balrogs he fought,but if he could defend himself for a long time,I think that he had the unstopable sword technic.[though he had some frends with him at that moment].Plus,Gothmog The Lord of Balrogs can be counted as few of them.
Maybe I'm a bit unreal but understand,I'm a Feanorian.


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## Confusticated

AuRoR said:


> Hi there.This is my first post on this cite and I've chosen this thread because of my fascination with these two fellas.To be honest,I think that Feanor would win the battle.It is said that Fingolfin was the strongest etc,but i beleive that he wouldn't be able to stop the heart that burns with that kind of flame.



Hi AuRoR! I know what you mean about Feanor's fire. But then think of Fingolfin's rage when he went after Morgoth? Wow! I know one thing, if it ever came to a fight between these two, and both were in a rage, I think it would be the all-time greatest battle in the history of Middle-earth, but at the same time also the most sad. Even more than Fingolfin versus Morgoth, because these two were brothers. This simple battle of two would be as tragic as the entire kinslaying.




> I'm a Feanorian.


Haha! I think I am too to be honest, but I like the other brothers more, particularly the house of Finarfin that has a feel of gentle wisdom about it with the fiery Aegnor and Angrod tossed in for extra spice.


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## Ingwë

I think Feanor will win because he is stronger and I think Feanor = fight. I mean his character, not his name (Meaning: From the Quenya fëanáro, meaning 'spirit of fire' ). But Fingolfin is more sublime and he want to help the Noldors. Feanor wants to take the Silmarils and he doesn`t care the Noldors.


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## AuRoR

Nóm said:


> Hi AuRoR! I know what you mean about Feanor's fire. But then think of Fingolfin's rage when he went after Morgoth? Wow! I know one thing, if it ever came to a fight between these two, and both were in a rage, I think it would be the all-time greatest battle in the history of Middle-earth, but at the same time also the most sad. Even more than Fingolfin versus Morgoth, because these two were brothers. This simple battle of two would be as tragic as the entire kinslaying.


 
I agree...I also think that it would be all time greatest battle.It's funny how people like to discuss about these "what if" questions.Especially about one on one battles which never happened.But there are so many great warriors in this[Tolkien's]world,so many great battles...
However,my personal opinion is that Feanor would win,I can't help it,it comes from the inside of my heart...


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## Grond

Nóm said:


> Hi AuRoR! I know what you mean about Feanor's fire. But then think of Fingolfin's rage when he went after Morgoth? Wow! I know one thing, if it ever came to a fight between these two, and both were in a rage, I think it would be the all-time greatest battle in the history of Middle-earth, but at the same time also the most sad. Even more than Fingolfin versus Morgoth, because these two were brothers. This simple battle of two would be as tragic as the entire kinslaying.


Feanor was the greatest and, yet, the most loathsome of all of the Eldar. He both abandoned and slew his kin. 

Fingolfin held fast to oaths and never went back on his word. 

But... in a battle between the two, Feanor would have won... he would have waited until his brother had turned his back and then plunged his knife to the hilt. 

Cheers,

grond


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## Aiglos

Feanor was a basketcase. 

Remember, Fingolfin only went to challenge Morgoth because he was so bent on revenge for all the Noldor killed in the Battle of Unnumbered Tears hundreds of years after the Return to ME! 

Feanor died almost as soon as he got off the white ship through one of the worst tactical blunders in the whole History of Arda! Wouldn't have stood a chance IMHO.


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## Annaheru

Wait!!!! Are you saying that Feanor, who fought and died at the beginning of the Elves aquaintance with weapons is less of a warrior than his brother who lost after having an additional 450 years to perfect the art of warfare?!?!?Feanor was the greatest child of Iluvatar, Morgoth bent all his thought on his destruction. Is it any wonder that Feanor was caught in the net? Yes, what Feanor did was wrong but he should be pitied not vilified. Fingolfin fought Morgoth while overwrought with grief for the Noldor, Feanor swore a horrible oath while overwrought with grief for his father.

"Fingolfin held fast to oaths and never went back on his word."

Neither did Feanor: he was destroyed by his oath, he never swore loyalty to any but his father- in all the scenes where Fingolfin pledges loyalty to Feanor he is never answered. Feanor, by his nature was incapable of doing small things, he created the greatest things, swore the greatest oaths, commited the greatest sins.

"But... in a battle between the two, Feanor would have won... he would have waited until his brother had turned his back and then plunged his knife to the hilt."
Never in life, Feanor had too much pride to fight dishonorably. In no combat did he ever 'cheat', if he could curse Morgoth to his face and dismiss him he would not have killed his brother in any way but face-to-face.


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## Aiglos

Yes. You're right in overall terms. Taking into account the oath to retake the Silmarils and avenge Finwe, the level of commitment in both cases was equal, and the level of damage wrought on the future of the Elves and of the ME of the 1st age was equal when each brother perished.

Mine was a purely military point, given that the question was who would win if the brothers had fought (imagine if Fingolfin had turned against the Kinslaying at Alqalonde for example...)?

Feanor's deeds were great. They were misguided and rash. But that does not stop them being amongst the greatest deeds in the entire story. This is true.

Fingolfin was rash but tragically believed he could end the struggle through victory in one-on-one combat. Quite how he thought he could do that....?  

I often think of Mandos as sounding a bit like Eeyore (manic depressive etc.). And no doubt as the two of them trooped off he was thinking 'Noobody listens much to me anymore....'


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## Grond

Annaheru said:


> "But... in a battle between the two, Feanor would have won... he would have waited until his brother had turned his back and then plunged his knife to the hilt."
> Never in life, Feanor had too much pride to fight dishonorably. In no combat did he ever 'cheat', if he could curse Morgoth to his face and dismiss him he would not have killed his brother in any way but face-to-face.


ROFL! So he would have never fight dishonorably? What about other aspects of his life that you have conveniently forgotten? The slaughter of his kin over the white ships... the abandonment of his kin and their forced crossing of the cruel Helcarxe. It is amazing how you Feanor defenders speak of his immeasurable greatness and yet forget his most glaring faults. Any claim to greatness was laid low by his actions.

Fingolfin, on the other hand, kept his oaths... even to a betraying brother who abandoned him and his people. Feanor was great but lost all entitlement to that description in his cruel, malicious and fruitless quest to regain the Silmarils.

Cheers,

grond


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## Annaheru

History contains many people who did horrible things without fighting dishonorably (read some roman history). Have you conveniently forgotten that?And if you had bothered to read all of the post you would understand that I'm not saying Feanor was perfect. What I am saying is that everything Feanor did was great, EVEN HIS FAULTS, I would compare him to Caeser or Napoleon not in military prowess, but in actions and morality.

Oh, and Feanor killed the Teleri in open battle, so that can't support your claim that he would 'stab them in the back', he didn't slaughter them in their sleep, or sneak into the city and start killing, in fact he hadn't intended to kill them. If you read the account it was only when they were thwarted in boarding the ships that the Noldor _lost their tempers_, Feanor's fault was in leading another two charges.
Yes, Feanor abandoned his brother, and it was wrong, yet it was Fingolfin who swore an oath of loyalty, not Feanor. What he did was unnatural, but he never broke any oaths (contrary to what you keep seeming to imply).


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## Grond

Annaheru said:


> History contains many people who did horrible things without fighting dishonorably (read some roman history). Have you conveniently forgotten that?And if you had bothered to read all of the post you would understand that I'm not saying Feanor was perfect. What I am saying is that everything Feanor did was great, EVEN HIS FAULTS, I would compare him to Caeser or Napoleon not in military prowess, but in actions and morality.
> 
> Oh, and Feanor killed the Teleri in open battle, so that can't support your claim that he would 'stab them in the back', he didn't slaughter them in their sleep, or sneak into the city and start killing, in fact he hadn't intended to kill them. If you read the account it was only when they were thwarted in boarding the ships that the Noldor _lost their tempers_, Feanor's fault was in leading another two charges.
> Yes, Feanor abandoned his brother, and it was wrong, yet it was Fingolfin who swore an oath of loyalty, not Feanor. What he did was unnatural, but he never broke any oaths (contrary to what you keep seeming to imply).


First off, the Teleri were a lightly armed people who were protecting their property. One can in no way consider the Feanorians actions as honorable or even justified. You consider it "_losing their tempers_", I consider it a blatant act of unwarranted and dishonorable aggression. 

Secondly, my comments were not meant to condemn Feanor for abandoning Fingolfin... they were meant for his abandonment of his own *people* who had chosen to remain faithful to Fingolfin. Feanor claimed kingship over all of the Noldor yet was full willing to abandon all of those who had _honored_ his cruel oath. Your comparison to Caesar or Napoleon is not even close. Feanor was so much more than either of them could ever hope to have attained. His innate greatness was undone by his "fall". As Melkor fell from grace in his attempt to wrest Arda for himself, Feanor fell from grace when he sought to keep that which was not his to take (the light of the Silmarils). In doing so, Feanor lowered himself to the same category of honor as that of Melkor. 

You're arguing with Grond. I know everything. I am also quite humble about it. 

In all seriousness, read some of the archived threads on Feanor, Sauron, Melkor, etc. from several years ago. You can find them here! You'll see where I concede to Feanor's innate greatness but will never concede to any form of honor after his fall. I am also known for goading members in any number of arguments, just for the sake of getting greater and more thought provoking commentary. 

Cheers,

grond


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## Lhunithiliel

Grond said:


> You're arguing with Grond. I know everything. I am also quite humble about it.



How very smashingly *Grond* - ish, Master !!!!!    

Hahahahahaha


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## Hammersmith

What always confuses me is why _Glorfindel_ is "resurrected" or whatever. Sure the dude was cool, but Fingolfin is carved of ice. The guy's amazing. Talk about adversity and courage! Talk about bravery and legendary fighting! Can you imagine what would have happened had Feanor swallowed his pride, and the two brothers _together_ attacked Morgoth?


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## Tuor

Hammersmith said:


> What always confuses me is why _Glorfindel_ is "resurrected" or whatever. Sure the dude was cool, but Fingolfin is carved of ice.



Fingolfin probably just decided not to return. Maybe the sorrow and the knowledge of his foolishness at the end kept him there; maybe he found peace in the Halls of Mandos with his dead kin.

EDIT: Feanor at the time of his death would probably not have been able to defeat Fingolfin at the time of _his_ death. However, if they had had equal amounts of time fighting and training, Feanor would IMO have been able to defeat Fingolfin. It would have been an epic battle, and as mentioned hideously tragic.


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## Maggot

Fingolfin all the way he would of had a better battle strategy and don't forget he wounded Melkor one of the ainur! clap! clap!  Iluvatar's sort of servants (if you look at it that way). I can't remember was Melkor considered a vala because I've lost my copy of the silmarillion and I'm desperate to know whether he was. Also Feanor couldn't defeat Gothmog so what would of happened if he had come face to face with Melkor, the answer is he would've got his but whooped. Also Ecthelion defeated Gothmog so surely that means Ecthelion is a better warrior than Feanor and Fingolfin is a better warrior than Ecthelion so surely that means Fingolfin is a better warrior than Feanor.


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## Grond

Maggot said:


> Fingolfin all the way he would of had a better battle strategy and don't forget he wounded Melkor one of the ainur! clap! clap!  Iluvatar's sort of servants (if you look at it that way). I can't remember was Melkor considered a vala because I've lost my copy of the silmarillion and I'm desperate to know whether he was. Also Feanor couldn't defeat Gothmog so what would of happened if he had come face to face with Melkor, the answer is he would've got his but whooped. Also Ecthelion defeated Gothmog so surely that means Ecthelion is a better warrior than Feanor and Fingolfin is a better warrior than Ecthelion so surely that means Fingolfin is a better warrior than Feanor.


Melkor was THE Vala. Closest in mind and thought to Eru and the most powerful (in the beginning). 

I am a big Fingolfin fan but you must remember that while Feanor was slain by Gothmog... he was fightin' a whole bunch of balrogs... not just Gothmog. So... you're kinda comparin' apples and oranges... they're both fruits but they're different.

Cheers,

grond


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## YayGollum

Doobedoobedoo... Crazy people. I may not be the largest expert on the subject of that other elf you people are talking about, but that won't stop
me from achingly confidently telling you that Feanor would win in some sort of fight in which the details are not examined in this thread. 

He was smarter. Do you know how many Batman versus Anyone Else typed conflicts end up with Batman winning? All of them, as long as Batman 
has at least twenty minutes to plan. Brains matter the most, and as you all should know, the achingly cool and admirable Feanor had way too much 
for one person. Also, charisma, creativity, and passion. 

You people mention the fight in which the poor guy dies. The points that I might have used that have already been written in here ---> 

He didn't have that much experience in battle yet, did the poor guy?

The circumstances of his demise didn't scream fair. As in, the poor guy was probably pretty tired, (even though when I am writing that, I am 
remembering his determination and passion and things and am wondering why I would think that he could be tired while in the heat of "Must get 
revenge!" phase, but oh well) and he was surrounded with large 
and terrifying spirits made out of smoke, fire, and iron. One of which was the biggest and scariest of all time. Maybe a few Orcs, too. Also, how 
much help do you really think that he's getting from his fellow 
elves at the time? First of all, who would want to be anywhere near this crazed yet achingly cool elf while he's passionately driving his sword 
into moving objects? I guess that's it.

What else? He's new to a bit of geographical typed features and his enemies aren't.

He has no idea what he's up against, does the poor guy. A glimpse into his brain ---> "Must get revenge. Chase he who I named Morgoth. Get my 
pretty rocks back. Nasssty thieves!" Does that guy seem to be thinking about the buddies of this particular thief? Did Feanor ever learn that Mel 
had crazy things like Balrogs backing him up?

Anyways, as to his imagined opponent, this other guy, whoever he is, was not his encounter with Mel an obviously one on top of one in some way 
sort of thing? Definitely no large piles of flame spirits gagging him with their fumes, scarring him with their claws, and burning his flesh with their 
foreheads, (or toes or elbows or bits of hair that are still falling off 
from their last visit to the Balrog Barber or any other part of their bodies) right? I don't have the book in front of me. Haven't touched the thing in 
a while. He probably ran into a bit of trouble before he ran into the 
big guy, yes? oh well. Are their any shining examples of brainpower that this character shows? They haven't been mention here from what I can see. 

Hm. Now that I am thinking about this a little more, Whatshisface might be able to win, but I still doubt it way too much to make sense to most 
people. After their deaths, two very different things happened. Whatshisface goes to hang out with all of the other boring elf spirits in their 
boring elf spirit world typed place. 

Feanor, the greatest, gets his own place, which makes all kinds of sense, yes? He didn't end up becoming a very popular guy, did he? oh well. 
He doesn't care too much. He spends his days brooding. "Well, if I had known that the thief had an army of those things, I would have come at 
it differently! Must get revenge! Where's my rocks at, yo?" 

While the greatest broods and fully intends to get his revenge, Whatshisface chats with fellow warriors and their equally idiotic deaths. 
Whatshisface might get a few pointers at fighting things. I kind of doubt it, though. But at least he'd still have plenty of active thoughts 
towards the ways of battle. 

If these two, for some insane reason, were handed identical swords and suits of armour, Whatshisface would have plenty of practical 
knowledge for 
the fight. Feanor gets handed the stuff ---> "Must get revenge! What? Why are you handing me these things? I have no use for those. You're 
bothering me. I was thinking. Hm? You expect me to fight 
Whatshisface? Why? This is a waste of my time. Go away, man." 

Anyways, if he was given some good reason to fight, he would know what to do with the stuff and would be able to come up with the definitive 
tactic to bring Whatshisface down. He'd need a bit of time. Also, I would hope that the reason wouldn't be one that gets poor Feanor's blood 
boiling with rage for Whatshisface. He wouldn't have time for thinking 
with all of the stabbing he'd be doing.

I would get into defending poor Feanor who is the greatest, but I thought that I would stick to the subject of this thread.  I would love 
to get 
into defending Feanor in every way, though, if there is some other thread I should be headed towards.


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## Gil-Galad

hmhmmh....everything that is said is nothing but speculations..I mean there is no way we could know who was better.Both of them died in different situations.

If I have to say one name I would vote for Feanor.Maybe because he was led by his passion,his fury-things part of his true character,nature if you want to call it like that.
Fingolfin died in battle also led by the same feelings,but I would not say they were part of his character.They were mostly result of what had happened before he went to fight with Melkor.
So if we talk about better warrior as a whole,I would vote for Feanor,because of his character.

But in conclusion I would say that I agree with Master Grond's words,that we are trying to compare oranges with apples......


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## DarkLordMelkor

Too much hustle for nothing in this thread.


_*Melkor's facts & feats:* _Melkor was as old as the Universe itself, thus having immeasurable experience and knowledge. Able to corrupt the creation of reality, was able to manipulate Ungoliant into stealing the Silmarils, corrupted half the Ainur into joining him. Melkor was as powerful as being able to fight off all the Maiar at once, his effortless physical attacks cause craters so deep that they cause lava to spew out of them, one of his screams alone was able to produce power that mountains shook and shattered, the Earth trembled and rocks were riven asunder, deep in forgotten places that cry was heard, far beneath the ruined halls of Angband, in vaults to which the Valar in the haste of their assault had not descended, Balrogs lurked still, awaiting ever the return of their Lord.. that alone would need 8.24 gigatons of TNT equivalent seismic energy generated by Morgoth's scream and even at his weakest, he easily dwarfs Mairon in power. (The prophesy of Dagor Dagorath claimed him to be capable of destroying the Sun and the Moon at the end of the world when he breaks out of the Door of night.) Melkor was able to smash the Earth to continents and therefore creating oceans. Significantly stronger than all 13 other Valar. Second strongest being in existence. Created the concept of discord with his thoughts.
Melkor was way faster than the Balrogs (Hypersonic speeds), could even transcend basic time which the Valar did not have to abide by.
Melkor was durable enough to fight against Tilion in a very weakened state, thus making his durability levels easily higher than Moon's. In peak shape, easily able to survive being attacked by all other Valar simultaneously. 
_(I won't be mentioning his reality warping powers etc.)_
_*Balrogs' and Gothmog's facts & feats:* _Seven Balrogs were able to drive away a starving Ungoliant, who actually overpowered a weakened Melkor. All Balrogs are former Maiar and remain quite powerful. Balrogs were stated as able to reach their objectives very fast and by the feat of Melkor's call at Thangorodrim peaks, we know that Balrogs fly with hypersonic speeds. (Feel free to ask me about the feat later on.) Balrogs were the greatest force in Morgoth's army, even more powerful than dragons, able to destroy massive mountains.
Gothmog was far stronger and faster than the average Balrog, even stronger and faster than Mairon. (Essentially, Gothmog is a Balrog with much higher stats. That's why he had the highest rank in the entire Melkor's army, even higher than Mairon/Sauron.)
Now that we see their opponent's feat, we know who outshines in comparison.
Feanor's ability to withstand multiple stab wounds and whippings by Balrogs, then being stabbed by Gothmog and lit on fire, then again getting up and standing before him wrapped in flame laughing in Gothmog's face before continuing the battle sure is more than simply BADASS.
But his brother, Fingolfin, he mounted his horse and proceeded to ride across Anfauglith with such wrath that it was said that those who saw him mistook him for the Valar Oromë. He rode to Angband, unhindered by any of Morgoth's servants, smote upon the gates of Angband and shouted his challenge for all to hear, mocking Morgoth. Morgoth, though still said to be the "mightiest of all things in this world", was reluctant to face Fingolfin who terrified anyone and anything in Morgoth's domain, even this powerful Valar felt fear. His physical stats exceeds any Elf-like being since many times Melkor attempted to smite Fingolfin but he managed to dodge all of Morgoth's blows and wounded the Dark Lord damn seven times. Even before dying Fingolfin's last, desperate stroke managed to cut into Melkor's heel. Melkor walked with a limp after the duel and the wounds he received pained him for the rest of his life.
Thus being said, Fingolfin EASILY outshines Feanor, being able to go toe to toe with the most powerful entity in Arda, whom his feats are the best by a large margin, says it all.​


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## HurinThalion

DarkLordMelkor said:


> Too much hustle for nothing in this thread.
> 
> 
> _*Melkor's facts & feats:* _Melkor was as old as the Universe itself, thus having immeasurable experience and knowledge. Able to corrupt the creation of reality, was able to manipulate Ungoliant into stealing the Silmarils, corrupted half the Ainur into joining him. Melkor was as powerful as being able to fight off all the Maiar at once, his effortless physical attacks cause craters so deep that they cause lava to spew out of them, one of his screams alone was able to produce power that mountains shook and shattered, the Earth trembled and rocks were riven asunder, deep in forgotten places that cry was heard, far beneath the ruined halls of Angband, in vaults to which the Valar in the haste of their assault had not descended, Balrogs lurked still, awaiting ever the return of their Lord.. that alone would need 8.24 gigatons of TNT equivalent seismic energy generated by Morgoth's scream and even at his weakest, he easily dwarfs Mairon in power. (The prophesy of Dagor Dagorath claimed him to be capable of destroying the Sun and the Moon at the end of the world when he breaks out of the Door of night.) Melkor was able to smash the Earth to continents and therefore creating oceans. Significantly stronger than all 13 other Valar. Second strongest being in existence. Created the concept of discord with his thoughts.
> Melkor was way faster than the Balrogs (Hypersonic speeds), could even transcend basic time which the Valar did not have to abide by.
> Melkor was durable enough to fight against Tilion in a very weakened state, thus making his durability levels easily higher than Moon's. In peak shape, easily able to survive being attacked by all other Valar simultaneously.
> _(I won't be mentioning his reality warping powers etc.)_
> _*Balrogs' and Gothmog's facts & feats:* _Seven Balrogs were able to drive away a starving Ungoliant, who actually overpowered a weakened Melkor. All Balrogs are former Maiar and remain quite powerful. Balrogs were stated as able to reach their objectives very fast and by the feat of Melkor's call at Thangorodrim peaks, we know that Balrogs fly with hypersonic speeds. (Feel free to ask me about the feat later on.) Balrogs were the greatest force in Morgoth's army, even more powerful than dragons, able to destroy massive mountains.
> Gothmog was far stronger and faster than the average Balrog, even stronger and faster than Mairon. (Essentially, Gothmog is a Balrog with much higher stats. That's why he had the highest rank in the entire Melkor's army, even higher than Mairon/Sauron.)
> Now that we see their opponent's feat, we know who outshines in comparison.
> Feanor's ability to withstand multiple stab wounds and whippings by Balrogs, then being stabbed by Gothmog and lit on fire, then again getting up and standing before him wrapped in flame laughing in Gothmog's face before continuing the battle sure is more than simply BADASS.
> But his brother, Fingolfin, he mounted his horse and proceeded to ride across Anfauglith with such wrath that it was said that those who saw him mistook him for the Valar Oromë. He rode to Angband, unhindered by any of Morgoth's servants, smote upon the gates of Angband and shouted his challenge for all to hear, mocking Morgoth. Morgoth, though still said to be the "mightiest of all things in this world", was reluctant to face Fingolfin who terrified anyone and anything in Morgoth's domain, even this powerful Valar felt fear. His physical stats exceeds any Elf-like being since many times Melkor attempted to smite Fingolfin but he managed to dodge all of Morgoth's blows and wounded the Dark Lord damn seven times. Even before dying Fingolfin's last, desperate stroke managed to cut into Melkor's heel. Melkor walked with a limp after the duel and the wounds he received pained him for the rest of his life.
> Thus being said, Fingolfin EASILY outshines Feanor, being able to go toe to toe with the most powerful entity in Arda, whom his feats are the best by a large margin, says it all.​



Where do you find evidence that Morgoth and the Balrogs could move at supersonic speed?

Also, where does it say that Morgoth could easily withstand attacks from all thirteen Valar simultaneously at his peak?


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## Phuc Do

One of my what ifs is how would Feanor or Fingolfin fare against Sauron if they had survived to the Third Age?


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## CMParish

My guess is Fingolfin. The Silmarillion describes Fingolfin as the most valient of Finwe's sons. Feanor was the most gifted in craft but also the most rash.


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## Azrubêl

Like others have said before, Fëanor is rash, and I think it's consistent with Fëanor's character for him to cause his own downfall in a battle like this.


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## HobbitGirl

I think it all boils down to anger. Both of the older Finwëans obviously had rage problems (Fëanor speaks for himself, and Fingolfin...really? The strongest of the Valar? In single combat? Dude, chill), but ultimately, Fëanor's rage is what killed him. He could have lived to cause way more trouble, but he just _had _to chase down a bunch of Balrogs _alone_. If he'd just waited like 10 seconds for his sons to catch up, the eight of them probably could have slaughtered Gothmog. For all his brilliance and skill, Fëanor's anger is the one thing he was never able to master. So, if it ever came down to single combat between Fëanor and Fingolfin, Fingolfin would undoubtedly win, because he's smart enough to use Fëanor's rage against him. Fëanor would have no chance.


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## Ingolmin

Both were good and well trained fighters and also half brothers. There is no sure result to the fight between them because in history they never did. For the outcome of such a battle, we would surely need to teleport ourselves to Middle-Earth in the First Age and organise a fighting match between the two(not war).
But I can surely tell you the qualities one had so as to best the other. Feanor had a very high temper, this was a source of his power. Fingolfin was a patient fighter, he concentrated more on skill than on his emotions(remember the fight he had with Melkor), this was a very good quality.

Well, these questions are pointless and a waste of time. If you want to know who is stronger, then you can post more than 100 of questions because there are more than hundreds of characters!


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## HobbitGirl

Ingolmin said:


> Well, these questions are pointless and a waste of time. If you want to know who is stronger, then you can post more than 100 of questions because there are more than hundreds of characters!


I mean--yeah? That's...kind of the point? We all know it's just hypothetical, and just for funsies--funsies is not a waste of time. We all know what we're signing onto when getting into a hypothetical discussion. 

Also don't make me take that as a challenge, I MAY JUST post 100's of questions of Who Would Win just to be cheeky. 

My opinion post at the end of the previous page stands though, even though it's been 5 years. 😁


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## Lómelindë Lindórië

As paradoxical as this might sound, I like both Noldorin brothers.

_But again, I'm a paradox myself, so..._

If I had to pick though, I'd say my will goes with Fingolfin.


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## cart

Not alot of love for Feanor... you hate to see it.

Id give Feanor 3:2 likelihood to win.

Their descriptions are in some contradiction to one another (I forget what exactly as it has been a long time) but I know they were both described as being the strongest of the the Children of Illuvatar among other contradictions.. Feanor has the greatest endurance and basically is described as being the ultimate Elf and best/strongest in all ways. Though I will give the strength nod to Fingolfin all the same and assume that was Tolk's intention was for him to be the strongest and be the most or 2nd only to Feanor to have the qualities that make for the best warrior.... with one exception (that is shown in Feanor's battle) is Feanor has the greatest endurance and the greatest spirit, also known as Fea (so his name checks out.) So I would assume has the strongest soul and was most "blessed(?)" with the secret fire/flame imperishable hence his name and likely (though this could be understood reasonably otherwise) some references to the "bright flame" that burned within Feanor.

Their greatest battles lean towards Feanor (imo) for which I will explain after. With Fingolfin's biggest battle ofc being with *Morgoth, who (like Sauron) is a coward a*nd would only endanger himself out of necessity or knowing there is no chance of death. (Which makes for more compelling baddies imo) as they spin their webs and corrupt others to do their bidding casting the lives of others into chaos and death and never their own if they are able. Morgoth only fought Fingolfin because he HAD to.. i mean imagine a dude talking trash in your front yard and even then still being afraid to go out.. despite being the greatest of the Valar. *Fingolfin wounds him 7(?) times the mightiest of all the Valar* and is dodging him left and right.. but tired out.. and Morgoth basically smashes him down 3 times and the final time he gets a last cut in..

So Morgoth had a fear that he could be slain by Fingolfin or at the very least damaged to an extent it would have a very large impact on him (which says something) and got some good licks on the mightiest of the Valar.

-----------------------

Then you got Feanor's deeds (we are just going to skip the whole kinslaying stuff.. I doubt the Noldor would have gotten along with Ents.. very hasty they are):

"He knew naught of Angband or the great strength of defence that Morgoth had so swiftly prepared; *but had he known, it would not have deterred him, for fey he was, consumed by the flame of his own wrath*. Thus it was that he drew far ahead of the van of his host, and seeing this the servants of Morgoth turned to bay, and there issued from *Angband Balrogs* to aid them. There upon the confines of Dor Daedeloth, the land of Morgoth, *Feanor was surrounded, with few friends about him. Soon he stood alone; but long he fought on, and laughed undismayed, though he was wrapped in fire and wounded with many wounds. But at the last Gothmog, Lord of the Balrog*s, smote him to the ground, and there he would have perished".. (until homies and eagles (late as usual) pick him up)

So another L but this is a pretty Kratos like L (if Kratos took Ls.) And while the details of the battle with gothmog are (at least to me, not fleshed out much) I can't say I'm too concerned about that.

Though F*eanor's L was a more impressive L.... as he was fighting the same Balrogs that fought off Ungoliant that WAS going to destroy Morgoth.* So Feanor, held off the Balrogs that could kill that which can kill Melkor. And after what could be seen as a long battle despite being wounded all over until after he had been at battle and damaged for some time the Lord of Balrogs finally smote him to the ground. Also, take note that he didn't tire out like Fingolfin did.

So Feanor wins.... and i change my likelihood in Feanor's favor to 2:1.


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## Melkor

𝓜𝓲𝓻𝓲𝓮𝓵 𝓘𝓽𝓱𝓲𝓵𝔀𝓮𝓷 𝓐𝓶𝓪𝓷𝓲𝓮𝓵 said:


> As paradoxical as this might sound, I like both Noldorin brothers.
> 
> _But again, I'm a paradox myself, so..._
> 
> If I had to pick though, I'd say my will goes with Fingolfin.


I never have much love for Fëanor. He is interesting character indeed, but also very malicious. I like Fingolfin't the most from Finwë's sons.


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## cart

Melkor said:


> I never have much love for Fëanor. He is interesting character indeed, but also very malicious. I like Fingolfin't the most from Finwë's sons.


Well your username checks out.


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## Elassar

If we are going on combat skills then fingolfin but on smarts nobody will ever beat feanor


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## d4rk3lf

While I adore Fingolfin, and was instantly impressed with his courage, when he challenged Morgot himself, and managed to wound him, I have to give Feanor here advantage. 
From what I understood, Feanor was simply 3 times stronger then strongest elf, ever. His mother died during birth, because of how much strength went to him. I think he was pretty close to maia in terms of strength. 

Some people make argument that Feanor was slained by Balrogs, and there were some elves who killed Balrog. 
I think that's simplistic look, because terrain was different i these battles. All elves that manage to kill Balrogs (and kill themselves during the process), only managed it, because of terrain, and they could jump on the Balrogs and fall with Balrogs into abys. 
Feanor was on flat ground, fighting SEVERAL Balrogs, and managed that fight last pretty long... he continued fighting even he was wounded, and it had to took Gothmog, the strongest Balrog, to strike a final blow. 

Let me remind also that several Balrogs are way stronger then Morgot, as we seen in the scene with Ungoliant.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda

Very hard question... I like them both for different reasons. I must ponder this-- will get back to you.


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## Olorgando

Elassar said:


> If we are going on combat skills then fingolfin but on smarts nobody will ever beat feanor





d4rk3lf said:


> While I adore Fingolfin, and was instantly impressed with his courage, when he challenged Morgot himself, and managed to wound him, I have to give Feanor here advantage.
> From what I understood, Feanor was simply 3 times stronger then strongest elf, ever. His mother died during birth, because of how much strength went to him. I think he was pretty close to maia in terms of strength.
> 
> Some people make argument that Feanor was slained by Balrogs, and there were some elves who killed Balrog.
> I think that's simplistic look, because terrain was different i these battles. All elves that manage to kill Balrogs (and kill themselves during the process), only managed it, because of terrain, and they could jump on the Balrogs and fall with Balrogs into abys.
> Feanor was on flat ground, fighting SEVERAL Balrogs, and managed that fight last pretty long... he continued fighting even he was wounded, and it had to took Gothmog, the strongest Balrog, to strike a final blow.
> 
> Let me remind also that several Balrogs are way stronger then Morgot, as we seen in the scene with Ungoliant.


My impression is that both of you are thinking of Fëanor in terms that are derived from far more recent, and thus simplistic, films in the genre of Fantasy.
Fëanor might have been unsurpassed ins *skills* among the Elves (and not just with the Silmarils, he also was into JRRT's professional - and private - sphere of scripts and philology). But if with "smarts" you mean *wisdom*, then Galadriel is light-years ahead of him, and was almost from the start, even before she met Melian in Thingol's kingdom. Fëanor had a *huge* issue with his almost non-existent self-control, which in many situations kind of makes him one of the *dumbest* Elves in JRRT's legendarium when in a rage.

And the same goes for the assumption that Fëanor was *physically* strong due to having no siblings. And no, his mother Míriel did not die in childbirth, but a while later. That again is a misconception fueled by the primitive "Fantasy" films of the last decades, with their on-dimensional "heroes" (there's a reactivated thread about "Conan"). Again, it's in (*some*) skills that Fëanor was peerless - unfortunately, among the Elves, also in some negative characteristics, such as narcissism, megalomania and nihilism. If you want to be harsh about it, Fëanor basically killed his mother Míriel through his limitless greed even as an embryo!

My estimate of what would have happened had Fëanor been the one to challenge Morgoth in the Fingolfin scene is that he might have dealt Morgoth one wound - but then have been squashed flat as a pancake by Morgoth's first blow with Grond. For all of Fingolfin's rage that led him to challenge Morgoth, he was still a warrior who could think, and be aware that he's not going to take out Morgoth with a single blow, but had to keep his defenses up (meaning superior quickness; any middleweight boxing champion who charges at a mid-level heavyweight with the intent to knock him out is going to wake up in the hospital later with a severe concussion!). JRRT's writings about the whole Morgoth-Ungoliant scene are early ones he never, IIRC, returned to, and thus belong to a "primitive" stage. As may be the case with Fëanor's rage that led him to be surrounded by Balrogs (which at this time may have still been many more and much weaker than JRRT later envisioned them to be). Again to put it harshly, in the Fëanor vs. Balrogs scene, the Balrogs seem to be far more intelligent that Fëanor - there is no mention of *him* killing one. Those whips of theirs - their main weapons - certainly had far more range that any sword. They just stayed out of Fëanor's range and cut him to pieces with them.


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## d4rk3lf

Olorgando said:


> My impression is that both of you are thinking of Fëanor in terms that are derived from far more recent, and thus simplistic, films in the genre of Fantasy.


Funny you mention that, because when I first read what Elassar wrote about Fingolfin and Feanor, I though exactly opposite.
And I still think it that way.
Fingolfin was (in my eyes) way smarter then Feanor. Pretty much everybody (from high class Noldors) was smarter then him, yet, he was (brute force) the strongest elf ever, and in the blacksmith crafts too, and in the language too.

I am not sure about your point of "films in the genre of Fantasy"... It seems that you know when I first read Silmarillion.
So, what do you think, when I did that?
- 1997
- 1983
- 2003

One of the above year is correct... what do you think?

LOL - I loved when you said that my point is that Feanor had no siblings.. can you beleave me in my honest word, that I never think about it that way? 
AS for Balrogds VS Morgoth, being an early draft... Are we going to pick scene by scene now, after more then 30 years after Silmarillion has ben released?
Isn't Silmarillion sort of canon?


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## Tar-Elenion

d4rk3lf said:


> Funny you mention that, because when I first read what Elassar wrote about Fingolfin and Feanor, I though exactly opposite.
> And I still think it that way.
> Fingolfin was (in my eyes) way smarter then Feanor. Pretty much everybody (from high class Noldors) was smarter then him, yet, he was (brute force) the strongest elf ever, and in the blacksmith crafts too, and in the language too.


Yet the Silmarillion says:
"Fingolfin was the strongest, the most steadfast, and the most valiant."


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## Olorgando

d4rk3lf said:


> Isn't Silmarillion sort of canon?


That's a topic where the opinions vary about as much as on "did Balrogs have wings?" and "who or what is Tom Bombadil?" ...


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## d4rk3lf

Olorgando said:


> That's a topic where the opinions vary about as much as on "did Balrogs have wings?" and "who or what is Tom Bombadil?" ...



They had a wings made of shadows, cool looking, great design. but couldn't perform function of flying, therefore was only showed in fashion weeks.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda

d4rk3lf said:


> They had a wings made of shadows, cool looking, great design. but couldn't perform function of flying, therefore was only showed in fashion weeks.


We've been here before.... Probably want to switch to the thread "Do Balrogs have wings?" So this one doesn't derail as massively...


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## Rōmānus

sousuke22 said:


> I used to think Feanor would but now i'm not so sure b/c they don't specify on how many balrog he was fighting and how long he lasted....
> 
> 
> I think i might go with Feanor though!



It is said that “long he fought on, and undismayed” (Return of the Noldor) against Gothmog and at least one other. Even though there is not a specific time period the encounter was described as a long-standing one. The period might even have been short, but it was seen as long for someone doing so in such a position.


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## Rōmānus

Elemmire said:


> I think that Feanor's inclination towards rash action would count against him.



Funny enough both siblings perished because of rash actions. Fëanor racing ahead of his vanguard and Fingolfin racing off alone to challenge Morgoth could not be restrained by sense “even had he known (of Morgoth’s great defense) it would not have deterred him” (Of the Return of the Noldor), nor anything else “none might restrain him” (Of the Ruin of Beleriand). Both went off to attempt something that none could prevent from happening. Does challenging Morgoth sound like a sound response to what recently happened to your forces? In the end both brothers wanted to end Morgoth, Fëanor did not get to challenge him before balrogs confronted him, but Fingolfin did.



Garwen said:


> Finarfin, since he is the only one who lived. Ha ha just kidding Anyway
> Feanor seemed to have the hotter temper of the two. However
> Fingolfin had more patients ( did I spell that right?) so he'd think things through.
> Its hard to tell.
> I'd go with Fingolfin.


Even if this were the case what ended up doing Fingolfin in was that “a great madness of rage was upon him” (Of the Ruin of Beleriand).


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## Olorgando

Rōmānus said:


> Funny enough both siblings perished because of rash actions. Fëanor racing ahead of his vanguard and Fingolfin racing off alone to challenge Morgoth could not be restrained by sense “even had he known (of Morgoth’s great defense) it would not have deterred him” (Of the Return of the Noldor), nor anything else “none might restrain him” (Of the Ruin of Beleriand). Both went off to attempt something that none could prevent from happening. Does challenging Morgoth sound like a sound response to what recently happened to your forces? In the end both brothers wanted to end Morgoth, Fëanor did not get to challenge him before balrogs confronted him, but Fingolfin did.
> 
> 
> Even if this were the case what ended up doing Fingolfin in was that “a great madness of rage was upon him” (Of the Ruin of Beleriand).


True. But Fingolfin attacked Morgoth after the disastrous Battle of Sudden Flame which broke the 400-year siege of Angband - something Fingolfin had always feared might happen (he was under no illusions about the might of Morgoth). He thought all was lost (as it had been when the Noldor were still in Aman), and it was quite clearly a suicidal attack, clear to Fingolfin in all his rage. Fëanor's attack followed on the freshly-arrived (in Middle-earth) Noldor having just massacred Morgoth's Orcs in the Battle under Stars with an ease that must have given Morgoth an attack of panic diarrhea. Thinking to recover the Silmarils in a sudden mad dash made Fëanor into an even greater nihilistic lunatic than Morgoth ever was. There wasn't a single intact fuse left in his noggin when he did that - total mental short-circuit.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda

I tend to harbor greater affection towards Fingolfin. He seems genuinely a better character than Feanor, and this idea stems largely from the oath that Feanor took.


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## Copia

I would say Fingolfin, he allways seemed like the greatest warrior to me.
Feanor was of course great as he fought 7 Balrogs including Gothmog. 
but Fingolfin saw more battles, and he fought Morgoth and struck him seven times.

Also I see people talk about Feanor’s «anger», «fire» and «rage».
But remember Fingolfin could awaken som insane fire and rage as well. When he rode off to face Morgoth all his minions trembled in fear.


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