# Concerning Elves



## j0n4th4n (Dec 29, 2002)

A few questions - 

1. Are Elves better than Humans at everything?? this gets on my nerves. Is there anything Men can do better than Elves (except die)? 

2. Also, is every Elf good-looking? Every single one? 

3. Is the ugliest Elf better-looking than the most beautiful Human?
(I'm talking aesthetic beauty here not subjective)

4. Are Elves stronger (phisically) than Men?

5. Do Elves in general get on better with each other?
In Elvish society are there any criminals?

6. Do they work? I know this seems stupid but somehow I can't imagine Elves doing menial work

Re. Question 1 I can only think of two things at the moment they are - funniness. I think in general Men would be funnier than Elves. They are to serious and don't seem to have the right kind of temperament to be VERY funny. The other one is slightly odd but - they can't be Mannish. I mean, every race has its own individuality and no race can be like the other. Elves don't have that natural 'ruggedness' that comes so easily to humans.


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## Confusticated (Dec 29, 2002)

*Nice topic.*

I think people will give a lot of examples to answer these questions.

1) They were better in general at the arts, such as crafting, cooking, even singing. As far as positive thing go, I can not think anything right off hand where men are superior to elves in general.

2) I think all elves are good looking, uness they have been through something awful such as torment by Melkor. One example of this is Gwindor who escaped from Angband and was bent and aged. In an old tale of the Fall of Gondolin that is in The Book of Lost Tales II, it is said that Maeglin looked orcish, but this wasn't told in The Silmarillion, so it is my belief that Tolkien didn't keep that idea.

3) I do not recall reading anywhere that a human is more beautiful than an elf though something was said of Eowyn (if i recall correctly) about her being beautiful enough to pass for an elf... something to that effect was said. Turin was also said to look like a Noldo, so I imagine he was as beautiful as elves. Based on what i've read I would say that there were humans who surpassed some elves in beauty, but I don't remember this being said outright, it is just what I imagine.

4) This is said in The Silmarillion in the chapter "Of the Coming of the Elves"


> In the beginning the Elder Children of Iluvatar were stronger and greater than they have since become, but not more fair, for the beauty of the Quendi in the days of their youth was beyond all other beauty that Iluvatar has caused to be, it has not perished but lives in the West, and sorrow and Wisdom have enriched it.


I think that some such as Glorfindel, or the princes of the Noldor, and the first elves of Middle-earth were stronger than men, but that the elves were smaller and weaker later on in the third age. I do recall Legolas saying something on Caradhras that makes me think that Aragorn and Boromir were stronger than he was.
So, your woodelves were perhaps weaker than men during the third age. Though the high elves who remained in Middle-earth during the third age may have been stronger. 

5)I am guessing you have not read the Silmarillion? Not all elves get along, and there are criminal elves though it isn't very common that I know of.

6)Elves do work, they have mined and crafted and built great things.


Some elves may have had a different sense of humor in general since they were much older and more wise. In the appendix story of Aragorn and Arwen it is told than when Aragorn met Arwen again in Lothlorien some years after their first meeting in Rivendell, that she did not laugh as much as she once did. Though some old elves such as Gildor Inglorion seemed quick to laugh and he joked with the hobbits. Legolas joked around too, but aside from those two there isn't much told about elves and humor in the Lord of the Rings. In the hobbit there is more - remember the elves of Rivendell said several funny things? They made fun of dwarves and of Bilbo.. saying "Mind Bilbo doesn't eat all of the cakes". Then when Bilbo was on his way home and they stopped in Rivendell again, he woke up after a long sleep to hear elves singing outside his window and he joked that he couldn't sleep with the noise, and they joked about his loud snoring.


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## j0n4th4n (Dec 29, 2002)

Thanks for such a thorough reply! I have read the Silmarillion, but quite quickly, all the way through without stopping and looking back (as if I were watching a film). All I can remember re. 5 in the Sil. was Fëanor's Elves killing some other Elves (Alqualöndeans?); and arguments and grudges concerning this. It seems to me that they are only able to be bad in a sort of 'epic' scale. There's no kind of petty crime.


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## Athelas (Dec 30, 2002)

*Funny you should ask*

>I think in general Men would be funnier than Elves. They are to serious and don't seem to have the right kind of temperament to be VERY funny.<

You don't live for thousands of years without developing a very subtle and highly tuned sense of humor.


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## Eriol (Dec 30, 2002)

Men were also 'hardier' than elves. The Siege of Angband was not complete (up to and including the North) before men arrived, because elves did not have what it takes to spend time in the frozen lands.


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## Lantarion (Dec 30, 2002)

Haha, how insulting. 
Excellent reply Confusticated! 
There really is nothing else to add, that I can think of.
And yes, Fëanor and his sons were the most known Elves to commit crimes against their own kin. The Kinslaying and the Burning at Losgar are held to be the most terrible things that Fëanor himself ever did. Also rebelling against the Valar and leaving Valinor in wrath was very un-Elvish. And the especially nasty thing about what Fëanor did was that, because of the Doom of Mandos, everybody who was invloved, even by accident, in the matters of the Silmarils and Fëanor was enmeshed in their doom and could do nothing about it. Poor Túrin.. 
Well remembered; Alqualondë was the Haven of Swans of the Teleri, where the Kinslaying was committed. 
Welcome to the forums!


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## Beorn (Dec 30, 2002)

*Re: Nice topic.*



> _Originally posted by Nóm _
> *I think that some such as Glorfindel, or the princes of the Noldor, and the first elves of Middle-earth were stronger than men, but that the elves were smaller and weaker later on in the third age. I do recall Legolas saying something on Caradhras that makes me think that Aragorn and Boromir were stronger than he was.*





> 'If Gandalf would go before us with a bright flame, he might melt a path for you,' said Legolas. The storm had troubled him little, and he alone of the Company remained still light of heart.
> 'If Elves could fly over mountains, they might fetch the Sun to save us,' answered Gandalf. 'But I must have something to work on. I cannot burn snow.'
> 'Well,' said Boromir, 'when heads are at a loss bodies must serve, as we say in my country. The strongest of us must seek a way. See! Though all is now snow-clad, our path, as we came up, turned about that shoulder of rock down yonder. It was there that the snow first began to burden us. If we could reach that point, maybe it would prove easier beyond. It is no more than a furlong off, I guess.'
> 'Then let us force a path thither, you and I!' said Aragorn.
> ...




Ahh, you mean that?


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## *Lady Aragorn* (Dec 31, 2002)

well, i would say the only thing making them better than humans is their immortality.


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## Beorn (Dec 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by *Lady Aragorn* _
> *well, i would say the only thing making them better than humans is their immortality. *



That's funny you should say that...Elves were envious of men, because they had the advantage of leaving Middle-earth quickly, while many of the elves stayed there for thousands upon thousands of years...

Men referred to it as the Doom of Men, and Elves refered to this as the Gift of Men or as Iluvatar's Gift.


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## goldmare (Jan 1, 2003)

It makes sense that people envy what they cannot have.
And I would say that elves do not accomplish as much as men, because they have more time to live their lives. Men must make their mark while they can; they want to be remembered, and elves, through their immortality, don't have to do much to be remembered, only be what they are. The lives of men are short, and this is why changes come fast in their world, while the elves live on, lasting through time and kind of staying in the background and watching. Well, most of them.


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## Confusticated (Jan 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Eriol _
> *Men were also 'hardier' than elves. The Siege of Angband was not complete (up to and including the North) before men arrived, because elves did not have what it takes to spend time in the frozen lands. *


Helcaraxe?
Legolas - Caradhras?


And yes Beorn.. that is what I had in mind.


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## *Lady Aragorn* (Jan 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by *Lady Aragorn* _
> *well, i would say the only thing making them better than humans is their immortality. *



and i also agree and think that elves are more serious then humans.


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## Lasgalen (Jan 2, 2003)

2. Also, is every Elf good-looking? Every single one? 

My interpretation is that, yes, every Elf is good-looking. I get that impression from the Silmarillion. Chapter 3 says that "Iluvatar made them [the Elves] more like in nature to the Ainur" than he did Men. Also, "the Quendi shall be the fairest of all earthly creatures..." 


3. Is the ugliest Elf better-looking than the most beautiful Human?
(I'm talking aesthetic beauty here not subjective)

I believe the above mentioned quotes apply to question 3 as well.


-Lasgalen


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## Lantarion (Jan 2, 2003)

Welcome to the forum, Mr. Lasgalen! Can I call you Eryn?  
I don't think every Elf was good-looking.. I can't really envision Thingol being a stunning young stallion; more like a bearded, grumpy old chief! 
No, but seriously I think the Silmarilion-quote provided by Lasgalen is quite clear.


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## Elfhelm25 (Jan 4, 2003)

Ive always thought of all elves as beautiful , inside and out . But I always thought of elves being the best and the worst , in a way . When they are beautiful , in and out, they areVERY beautiful , but if they are corrupted by power or greed , they become truly terrible .i always thought of men as somewhere in between . Also the older elves get , the more beautiful they become , I believe . ANd I think they would be wiser because they have had TIME to become wise . If men had immortality , I expect they would be as wise , or maybe wiser .


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## Lasgalen (Jan 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lantarion _
> *
> I don't think every Elf was good-looking.. I can't really envision Thingol being a stunning young stallion; more like a bearded, grumpy old chief! *


How about this visual:
Grumpy old Elf = Jack Lemmon.
Grumpy old Man = Walter Matthau

-Lasgalen


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