# Durin VII - "The Decline of TTF" and Moria



## Úlairi

After having a little talk with Aulë in _The Decline of TTF_ thread I once again made a comparison of TTF with Moria. Aulë then posed the poignant question of who would be TTF's Durin VII once TTF (hopefully) is revitalized by the introduction of _The Hobbit_ movie. Ultimately, (for those unaware of the Durin VII reference) which person do you believe will play a vital role in the return to, or surpassing of, TTF's former splendour? Which members would you like to see the return of? Are these members already here? Are you aware of someone who has an interest in the books but has never been on the forum before?

A far more minor personal submission is that I wouldn't mind seeing the return of Harad despite how extremely unlikely that is.

The true members that I wish to see return for the enrichment of the forum are Grond and Ancalagon. Two members that I am greatly indebted to in my understanding of Middle-earth. I am beginning to wonder where Alcuin has disappeared to and _The Conscience of TTF _also - YayGollum. TTF will always need its conscience Yay. 

For that matter, where's Firawyn?

*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


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## Aulë

No doubt Yay is lurking in the shadows awaiting for someone to use Gollum's name in vain. And I expect that he shall be rather vocal in the lead up to the Hobbit movie about thieves stealing rings and such.

Three members that I'd like to see return would be Nóm (who amazingly is now married and a mother...how things quickly change!), Celebthol, and Snaga (and his delightful wife, Wonko). Between them they give a great mix of Tolkien knowledge and general humour: both of which I consider a requirement to revitalise this once bustling community.

The potential Durin VII of the forum? I believe that he has already posted in this thread prior to me...


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## Úlairi

Aulë said:


> No doubt Yay is lurking in the shadows awaiting for someone to use Gollum's name in vain. And I expect that he shall be rather vocal in the lead up to the Hobbit movie about thieves stealing rings and such.


 
And this is why I was a little disturbed to see that there was no reply made to my comment here where I stated that I would like to see...



Úlairi said:


> The Hunt and Torture of Gollum...


 
...in the upcoming _The Hobbit _movie and yet there was no indignant response from Yay... interesting...



Aulë said:


> Three members that I'd like to see return would be Nóm (who amazingly is now married and a mother...how things quickly change!), Celebthol, and Snaga (and his delightful wife, Wonko). Between them they give a great mix of Tolkien knowledge and general humour: both of which I consider a requirement to revitalise this once bustling community.


 
Yes, I most definitely would like to add Snaga and Wonko to the list above. They were both excellent members of the forum. Snaga always had great threads from memory.



Aulë said:


> The potential Durin VII of the forum? I believe that he has already posted in this thread prior to me...


 
*chokes* Wow! What an honour! I wasn't actually looking for personal recognition when I posted this thread but I'm *very *flattered that you of all people would think that Aulë (considering my past offences). I simply thought you had a great idea that corresponded to some of my current sentiments about the forum. I miss some members here quite a lot, particularly Grond. He would be my Durin VII as I (and I'm going to take a *little* credit here) began _The Guild of Tolkienology_ as a spin-off of Elbereth's (and *there's *another I would dearly love to return to the forum) _Guild of Scholars_. Once I was banned Grond took this idea and ran with it and from what I've read developed it into a massive Guild full of many significant members who made great contributions to this forum. Gil-galad (let's hope he too returns) as far as I can see then took the reins for some reason. I would dearly love to see _The Guild of Tolkienology_ surpass its former glory also. Grond would likely be the man to do this. I would most definitely have my say and I have an idea to extend personal invitations to specific outstanding members to lead the Guild but the number of active members is simply insufficient currently. 

As a side-note, who was it that evolved _The Guild of Tolkienology _into _The Halls of Tolkienology_ (I assume that's where it came from)? Was it _dapence_?

So, I would like to extend my list to:


*LOST MEMBERS*​ 
Elbereth
Gil-galad
Ancalagon
Grond
Harad(?)
Snaga
Wonko the Sane​ 

*MEMBERS WHOSE CURRENT WHEREABOUTS ARE UNKNOWN*​ 
Alcuin
YayGollum
Firawyn​ 
*DURIN VII*​ 
Grond​ 

I would simply consider myself as Durin VII's Bane, Aulë. ​ 
*Cheers,*​ 
*Durin VII's Bane. *​


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## chrysophalax

Yay is at present on sabbatical, as it were. I'm sure he'll show his eccentric self one of these days...


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## Prince of Cats

chrysophalax said:


> Yay is at present on sabbatical, as it were. I'm sure he'll show his eccentric self one of these days...



I think last I heard he's got a little island in a subterranean lake. I hear he even has a boat to go fishing, though the neighbors are a little loud (and evil).


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## Alcuin

Úlairi said:


> *MEMBERS WHOSE CURRENT WHEREABOUTS ARE UNKNOWN*​
> Alcuin
> ...​


In the Salt-mines.


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## Úlairi

chrysophalax said:


> Yay is at present on sabbatical, as it were. I'm sure he'll show his eccentric self one of these days...


 
That's good to know. Imagine TTF without a conscience? Chaos, anarachy! 

Alcuin, good to see you're still around the boards. Your disappearance would be another tragic loss. Got that salt-mine joke; quite humourous. 

You guys have anyone in particular that you think would rejuvenate TTF?

Just thinking off the top of my head but Maehdros and Mormegil would also have to be added to my list above as well...

*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


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## Illuin

I haven't been here nearly as long as you guys; but *Turgon*, *Nóm*, and *Gothmog* were very active when I started and I would like to see them return. *Inderjit S* was one who liked to dig deep whose whereabouts is unknown. A little forum shake-up from *Barley* is always a nice treat, but unfortunately, there aren‘t enough of those. Perhaps the forum has become a bit too stiff and "_politically correct_" (which is so 90's already) to be entertaining. A good heated discussion/argument can be a lot of fun; but not if you're always paranoid about being banned; and can't say what you really want to say




. Not condoning anarchy; but walking on egg shells is just flat out lame. There is something known as "the middle ground". How can you really get to know fellow forum members if posts must be prim and proper, glassed over, and essentially fake. If this place was a bit more bustling, suggestions wouldn’t be necessary; but sometimes I feel like I’m in Sunday School. I think that is why other forums are very active, and this one is not. Just a thought .


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## Úlairi

Illuin said:


> I haven't been here nearly as long as you guys; but *Turgon*, *Nóm*, and *Gothmog* were very active when I started and I would like to see them return. *Inderjit S* was one who liked to dig deep whose whereabouts is unknown. A little forum shake-up from *Barley* is always a nice treat, but unfortunately, there aren‘t enough of those.


 
Yeah, Gothmog would also have to be another one from the good ol' days. He always invigorated discussion here on TTF. I also remember Indy but my memory's a little hazy. I do believe he made some intelligent posts here and there. Probably should go looking for them...



Illuin said:


> Perhaps the forum has become a bit too stiff and "_politically correct_" (which is so 90's already) to be entertaining. A good heated discussion/argument can be a lot of fun; but not if you're always paranoid about being banned; and can't say what you really want to say
> 
> 
> 
> . Not condoning anarchy; but walking on egg shells is just flat out lame. There is something known as "the middle ground". How can you really get to know fellow forum members if posts must be prim and proper, glassed over, and essentially fake. If this place was a bit more bustling, suggestions wouldn’t be necessary; but sometimes I feel like I’m in Sunday School. I think that is why other forums are very active, and this one is not. Just a thought .


 
Only one thing I can say to that: Giggity, giggity, giggity, goo!  Probably have to _have it out_ through the PM system like Firawyn and I did.  Too true, Illuin, too true. So your Durin VII would be someone who isn't afraid of being _politically *in*correct_ and being banned for it. Interesting...

*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


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## Lady_of_Gondor

I am not a super-active member of TTF, even though I have been a member for a number of years. One thing I always remarked was how in depth some of the conversations got, which is why I preferred at times to sit back and listen (or read, so to speak). That has been plenty enriching. But now that I am rereading the Lord of the Rings and paying more attention to the forum, I have come across these Mourning Threads and have come to wonder about something (please don't crucify me for saying this!):

Perhaps some of the members you speak about who offered so much to this thread (thousands of replies of depth and logic) don't have much more to say and that is why they disappeared. Believe me, I love the Lord of the Rings, and I could talk about it until I am blue in the face. And so could all of you, or else TTF wouldn't exist. BUT, is it possible that, after a while, there is only so much you can say about Tolkien and his books? 

I, as someone who loves all literature, believe there is always something new to say about a work, but sometime I need to take time off from it in order to come back with a fresh perspective. Perhaps if people started some new and interesting threads that haven't been talked about before, the old members would return.

I was reading the other thread on this topic and it seemed many people were complaining, but not actually posting something to discuss. I will try to come up with a new topic as I continue my reread of the Lord of the Rings. In fact, I have an idea about illustration in my mind right now that I may go and post.

Basically, I would just like to say, "if you post it, they will come!" So be proactive, and hopefully the old members, and hopefully some clever new ones will show up.


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## Aulë

I think it also has a lot to do with the depth of knowledge required to banter with such loremasters as a Nóm or an Úlairi. I have found that you have to be really immersed in Tolkien's works to be able to fully understand the structure of the lore (and to be able to form a solid debate without being shot down like a World War 2 fighter plane). I think that whilst Peter Jackson's movies were being released quite a few people were interested in Tolkien, Tolkien, and more Tolkien - leading to some incredible conversations on here. But be that as it may, eventually a change of scenery is required.

I'm currently immersing myself in Robert Jordan's world ahead of the release of the 12th and final book in the Wheel of Time series later this year, and as much as I'd like to, one epic series at a time is enough for my brain to mull over. I plan on revisiting the world of Tolkien (and those scary looking History of Middle Earth monstrosities on my book shelf) in the build up to The Hobbit movies in a couple of years time, and I'd expect that a fair few of TTF's alumni will plan on doing the same.

I haven't dared post in any Tolkien related thread in recent times because I do not think I'm at my best in regards to Tolkienology right now. It's different when you are new to Tolkien, fresh faced and raring to dig your claws into a bit of discussion. But for myself, posting now wouldn't compare with my knowledge a few years back: sure I recall the basics, but a thorough re-reading of Lost Tales would be required before I ventured into a bit of deep Tolkien philosophy.

So what I'm really getting at here is that I expect that these TTF legends are trudging through other literary works right now, and do not feel prepared to take on TTF's current crop of loremasters...at least until they pick up the ol' dusty Tolkien bibles once more. If they are anything like me, it'll be in the lead up to the Hobbit movies.


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## Illuin

> Originally posted by Lady of Gondor
> _I, as someone who loves all literature, believe there is always something new to say about a work, but sometime I need to take time off from it in order to come back with a fresh perspective. Perhaps if people started some new and interesting threads that haven't been talked about before, the old members would return._


 
Did you check out the Annals of the Eldanyárë recently (Tolkien‘s Eden thread)? We have been discussing some good stuff in there that offer some new twists and turns. It would be a shame to see such a productive conversation end with only three members posting their (albeit long) viewpoints.


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## Úlairi

Lady_of_Gondor said:


> I am not a super-active member of TTF, even though I have been a member for a number of years. One thing I always remarked was how in depth some of the conversations got, which is why I preferred at times to sit back and listen (or read, so to speak). That has been plenty enriching. But now that I am rereading the Lord of the Rings and paying more attention to the forum, I have come across these Mourning Threads and have come to wonder about something (please don't crucify me for saying this!):
> 
> Perhaps some of the members you speak about who offered so much to this thread (thousands of replies of depth and logic) don't have much more to say and that is why they disappeared. Believe me, I love the Lord of the Rings, and I could talk about it until I am blue in the face. And so could all of you, or else TTF wouldn't exist. BUT, is it possible that, after a while, there is only so much you can say about Tolkien and his books?


 
One of the most prominent reasons (in my mind) of my return to TTF is that I simply don't get the same intellectual stimulation from various other works of literature (unless you count some of the Classics such as _Nineteen Eighty-four_, _One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest_ (which is the *only* book that I found more enjoyable as a singular book than _The Lord of the Rings_ - my favourite book so to speak), _The Odyssey_, _Brave New World_, _A Clockwork Orange_ and a few others that couldn't be considered as Classics). I find Tolkien's Legendarium to be somewhat the literary equivalent of the Mandelbrot Set (_i → i² + _c) and a lot of the precepts of Chaos Theory. The deeper you observe the literature the more you discover that there is no end to the depth of your observation. Tolkien's works present (almost) an infinite number of possibilities. So, I'd have to disagree with you *completely* Lady_of_Gondor on that particular aspect. The unfortunately correct facet is that a lot of people who post here are obviously new to the Legendarium and post threads that have been discussed numerous times which tends to portray the fallacy that the works of Tolkien *are* quite _limited_.



Lady_of_Gondor said:


> I, as someone who loves all literature, believe there is always something new to say about a work, but sometime I need to take time off from it in order to come back with a fresh perspective. Perhaps if people started some new and interesting threads that haven't been talked about before, the old members would return.


 
I think that the answer is actually far more simpler than that Lady.  Life often gets in the way. I receive great criticism from friends and family for coming on the boards as (and I hate to say this) it is a last resort for me. I almost *never* do anything in moderation and chances are, based on my usual behaviour, I will spend a great quantity of time here for a short period and will likely disappear again for some years. Life will just inexorably prevent me from unnecessary cogitation; and I'm sure this has happened to many other members of the forum.



Lady_of_Gondor said:


> I was reading the other thread on this topic and it seemed many people were complaining, but not actually posting something to discuss. I will try to come up with a new topic as I continue my reread of the Lord of the Rings. In fact, I have an idea about illustration in my mind right now that I may go and post.


 
This thread was not designed to complain or really even mourn. I noticed that there was a significant amount of this in _The Decline of TTF_ thread and bright ol' Aulë asked that wonderful question - and out of admiration for the idea I posted it as a new thread to explore the hope of a Durin VII, a phoenix that will arise from the ashes and it need not be one person. This purpose of this thread is reminiscence indeed; but it is for positive purposes to remember fondly those who once leant on the forum walls with their memorable attitudes and brilliant observations and perhaps even utter a silent prayer that they'll return someday...

I look forward to seeing your illustration post, btw...



Lady_of_Gondor said:


> Basically, I would just like to say, "if you post it, they will come!" So be proactive, and hopefully the old members, and hopefully some clever new ones will show up.


 
Problematically it just isn't as easy as that either. I've posted some threads that took me days to construct just from reading the necessary material to attain a decent understanding and thus are hopefully of good quality. One thread in particular was: *I Liar Núra Sanwëo: Ingolë - Moringottova i Saurova Milli: Arda Sahta ar i Milli Túrë* which received virtually no attention. 



Aulë said:


> I think it also has a lot to do with the depth of knowledge required to banter with such loremasters as a Nóm or an Úlairi. I have found that you have to be really immersed in Tolkien's works to be able to fully understand the structure of the lore (and to be able to form a solid debate without being shot down like a World War 2 fighter plane).


 
Yeah, sorry about that. 



Aulë said:


> I think that whilst Peter Jackson's movies were being released quite a few people were interested in Tolkien, Tolkien, and more Tolkien - leading to some incredible conversations on here. But be that as it may, eventually a change of scenery is required.


 
Yes, but not when that scenery becomes _Mordor - The Scenic Route_.

Orc Tour Guide: "Here on our left we have the very first torture chamber built in Barad-dûr. It was commissioned by the Dark Lord one month after the towers construction and was eventually abandoned as the infectious fumes of the rotting corpses gave the Great Eye terrible conjunctivitis."



Aulë said:


> I plan on revisiting the world of Tolkien (and those scary looking History of Middle Earth monstrosities on my book shelf) in the build up to The Hobbit movies in a couple of years time, and I'd expect that a fair few of TTF's alumni will plan on doing the same.


 
And I think you'd be pretty much spot on there. It is likely I will do the same if the internet still exists in the next four years. 



Aulë said:


> I haven't dared post in any Tolkien related thread in recent times because I do not think I'm at my best in regards to Tolkienology right now. It's different when you are new to Tolkien, fresh faced and raring to dig your claws into a bit of discussion. But for myself, posting now wouldn't compare with my knowledge a few years back: sure I recall the basics, but a thorough re-reading of Lost Tales would be required before I ventured into a bit of deep Tolkien philosophy.


 
Wanna know something absolutely horrifying? I haven't read them for *six *years. I swear! I seem to remember where most things are however... weird.



Aulë said:


> So what I'm really getting at here is that I expect that these TTF legends are trudging through other literary works right now, and do not feel prepared to take on TTF's current crop of loremasters...at least until they pick up the ol' dusty Tolkien bibles once more. If they are anything like me, it'll be in the lead up to the Hobbit movies.


 
Nah, they're pushovers!  I personally don't think people like Grond and Ancalagon would have much of a problem. Knowledge derives from understanding and understanding from literary talent in textual interpretation. Many "_Loremasters knowledge_" of Tolkien is extraordinarily shallow. They purport a deep level of understanding but all they've truly achieved is the acquisition of little knowledge from a wider variety of topics (_learning a little from a _lot) where as I believe a true Loremaster is someone who derives a deep understanding from a more narrow perspective (_learning a lot from a little_). Anyway it's damn late and I should've been asleep hours ago!

*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


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## Illuin

> Originally posted by Úlairi
> _I've posted some threads that took me days to construct just from reading the necessary material to attain a decent understanding and thus are hopefully of good quality. One thread in particular was: _*I Liar Núra Sanwëo: Ingolë - Moringottova i Saurova Milli: Arda Sahta ar i Milli Túrë*_ which received virtually no attention._


 

Don’t worry, you weren’t ignored. Actually, I read that post and thought it was really good, since that is the area of Tolkien's work that I also find the most interesting. However (no offense), there was too much to respond to. My recent posts in The Eldanyárë are more or less my limit (and they’re even too long). I read over all new posts, and if a reply is going to take me more than a half hour, then it's likely you won’t hear from me. I usually keep the forum open when I’m grading, or doing something that‘s making me money; and it’s nice to take a break and fire away at some posts; but I only have a certain amount of play time. But I did read it, and thought it was very good.


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## Aisteru

I think that Aulë said it pretty well. The base amount of knowledge that one needs to have to argue and contribute effectively to the Forum these days is astounding. That is certainly not a bad thing though. I love coming on here and reading what everyone has said. It has expanded my Tolkien knowledge so much. However, I do also agree that the sheer scholarship of many of the forums here has prevented many people from just diving in and joining some debates. I think The Hobbit will bring a new influx of fresh, young perspectives, and while some of them may be a bit naive and irritating, there will be many who will contribute to the overall health of the Forum and help lead it back to its glory days.


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## Úlairi

Illuin said:


> Don’t worry, you weren’t ignored. Actually, I read that post and thought it was really good, since that is the area of Tolkien's work that I also find the most interesting. However (no offense), there was too much to respond to. My recent posts in The Eldanyárë are more or less my limit (and they’re even too long). I read over all new posts, and if a reply is going to take me more than a half hour, then it's likely you won’t hear from me. I usually keep the forum open when I’m grading, or doing something that‘s making me money; and it’s nice to take a break and fire away at some posts; but I only have a certain amount of play time. But I did read it, and thought it was very good.


 
Well I'm flattered that you did read it Illuin, and I acknowledge Aisteru's (and Aulë's) point that the scholarship level today is of a much higher quality. However, I think this is an incredibly poor excuse not to engage in intellectual discussion and simply just sit on your hands instead and wait for the next generation to post and dilute the quality of this forum. Everyone likes the thrill of a spear-fishing for noobs but all you end up with is a small catch. When I came back I was severely disappointed at the quality of the posts here (and to a degree I still am) but then I ran into (relatively) new members such as Illuin, Alcuin, Firawyn and Galin and realized that all was not lost. I wanted quite badly to go spear-fishing for them instead (I certainly did go the wrong way about it ) and reap the reward of a much larger catch. *That *is where I derive my intellectual stimulation and enjoyment. So, to tell you the truth I'm quite frustrated with the naysayers here who believe that this forum can't once be resplendent with deep literary analysis (and even more creative RPG's) until the release of _The Hobbit_ movies. If you note the actual purpose of the thread it wasn't entirely about the next generation but about the one's that have left. This entails that it was those who contributed greatly to the fora are the ones that are missed the most. So, stop umming and ahhing and get up off your hands! Stand up and be counted! Maybe one day there'll be a thread with your alias all the way through it reminiscing about the magnificent contributions *you *once made here...

Hell, even *I* (without sounding too proud ) can even find one of the threads by a coward who obviously waited until I was banned to tell the forum what he really thought of me (but I still got a thread with my username in it! ) - Love the first post in this one 

Btw guys I would also be interested to hear who your Durin VII is... 

*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


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## Alcuin

Úlairi said:


> ...I would also be interested to hear who your Durin VII is...


Isn’t he called _Durin VII and *Last*_?? And after him, the Dwarves die out?!


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## Úlairi

Yes Alcuin but not quite the metaphorical representation I was attempting to convey. 

However, if you wish to look at it from such a bleak perspective I guess you could consider that once _The Hobbit_ movies are over and done with _The Tolkien Movie Franchise_ will come to an abrupt end and after a while this forum will eventually dissipate into nothing. It might just happen if everyone takes the attitude of investing too much hope in the rejuvenation of this forum on a quasi-permanent basis.

*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


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## Illuin

> Originall posted by Úlairi
> _So, stop umming and ahhing and get up off your hands! Stand up and be counted! Maybe one day there'll be a thread with your alias all the way through it reminiscing about the magnificent contributions *you *once made here..._


 


Well, some might also be afraid to post. Some may not be able to relate to that, but I believe it is the case. Just like public speaking. Some people are so afraid of getting up in front of a group to speak (haha, I know because if someone is rubbing me the wrong way, that is my weapon of choice, and it‘s a killer ). A lot of people are passionate about Tolkien, but they don’t know the material as well as others, and are probably nervous about posting something for fear they’ll look like an idiot. They shouldn’t have to feel that way. This isn’t supposed to be like a classical music recital where they will be scrutinized by a jury of experts. Some just want to chit-chat about their mutual passion for Tolkien’s stories. Some don’t want to make magnificent contributions, they just want to communicate with others who have similar interests. Personally, I think most of the deeper posts that have surfaced as of late should *ALL* take place in _The Annals of the Eldanyárë_. That’s what that thread is for; "in-depth" discussion; regardless of what "category" it may fall under. That leaves the other threads free and clear; and open for casual discussion. If a post or thread has the potential for being picked apart or scrutinized, then it should posted in the _Eldanyárë._ I think that is the crux of the situation.


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## Lady_of_Gondor

> Ulairi:
> However, I think this is an incredibly poor excuse not to engage in intellectual discussion and simply just sit on your hands instead and wait for the next generation to post and dilute the quality of this forum. Everyone likes the thrill of a spear-fishing for noobs but all you end up with is a small catch. When I came back I was severely disappointed at the quality of the posts here



I think you may be missing the point of the problem. For me, how I have always seen the Tolkien Forum (and the reason for which I have only a measly 85 posts in however many years I've been on this forum) is that there is a small group of people who have an incredibly vast knowledge of Tolkien on here, having read Unfinished Tales and The Histories of Middle Earth several times. They contribute a lot, and they put a lot of valuable Tolkien scholarship into the web-sphere.

And then, there are the rest of us, who may or may not feel completely at ease here, but don't want to leave entirely because it is a great place to discuss Tolkien. Illuin put it nicely when he said,



> A lot of people are passionate about Tolkien, but they don’t know the material as well as others, and are probably nervous about posting something for fear they’ll look like an idiot.



I am going to give myself as an example, since I know nobody's experience but my own. Illuin's point is basically how I have felt, and I am generally not afraid of public speaking or web-forum posting. I go through periods of activity here. I joined just before the release of the films and enjoyed discussing on here for a little while until posts all the 'loremasters' made me self-conscience. Then when the films came out, I hung out here a bit more because the atmosphere became more laid-back. But now! Now I think the forum has gotten more complicated than I ever could have imagined - and I have gotten A LOT smarter and become a more sensitive reader after four years of college!. After having spent only a few days back here, I am starting to think that I am over my head. 

To be quite honest, I am not sure I will ever read The History of Middle Earth (and I KNOW I am not alone on that one), and maybe that makes me less of a fan of Tolkien than some members on this forum, but it does not mean that I am not a fan of Tolkien, if you follow me. 

But on some level, a person with my interest level might feel unwelcome here. Consider the following statement by Ulairi:



> However, I think this is an incredibly poor excuse not to engage in intellectual discussion and simply just sit on your hands instead and wait for the next generation to post and dilute the quality of this forum.



I realize this was primarily aimed at Illuin, so I may seem out of line, but it seems that you are trying to suggest that posts of a lower quality than what you or other 'loremasters' contribute are unwelcome. Who is to say that posts that are not quite so intellectually stimulating would 'dilute the quality of the forum'? You are welcome to continue posting threads that resemble the beginnings of a dissertation if you like, and there are a few people on here who will take the bite and give you the intellectual satisfaction that you crave, but if you are hoping that everybody on the Tolkien Forum is going to be interested in that type of discussion, you are probably mistaken.

Now, it was stated that this thread was meant to reminisce about the great members who are now gone. And that's a wonderful idea! However, I think that you have to continue to accept the Forum as it is. If the forum once included many members capable of analyzing Tolkien to the level that some do here, that must have really been a 'Golden Age' (doubtless, one I chose to absent myself from). But, as with every golden age, it must come to an end. And so some members have moved on. Maybe they will come back. Let's hope so. But let's also let the forum be what it will be. 

There is no reason that this has to resemble what happened to Moria. But if the members on here are elitist about things, then I don't doubt that eventually it will do, not to be the downer. My point is: accept the good with the bad, the simple posts with the complicated, and the casual LotR fan with the Tolkien Loremaster so that we can create a forum that is truly representative of the different fans of this great creator!


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## Úlairi

Lady_of_Gondor said:


> I think you may be missing the point of the problem. For me, how I have always seen the Tolkien Forum (and the reason for which I have only a measly 85 posts in however many years I've been on this forum) is that there is a small group of people who have an incredibly vast knowledge of Tolkien on here, having read Unfinished Tales and The Histories of Middle Earth several times. They contribute a lot, and they put a lot of valuable Tolkien scholarship into the web-sphere.


 
There was a certain member here a few years ago by the alias of Cían (and I most certainly would like to put him on my list and even on the Durin VII list!) who I personally believe made Grond, Ancalagon and Harad look like third grade English students (and me look like I was in pre-school). He (or was it a she???) would post significantly less than even you L_o_G but (s)he would occasionally meander into one of my threads and post something so incredibly and perplexingly complex that (s)he was often ignored in the very next post. I was _terrified _of Cían (more than anyone else) as (s)he was a cool, calm, calculated and complex cat. I know exactly how it felt to be treated like I was being interviewed by the FBI... but I'll come back to this point later. 

For good measure I have not read HoME either; just _parts _of it that I consider important. I haven't read _The Book*s* of Lost Tales_, HoME III-IX and _The War of the Jewels_. I have only read minor parts of _The Peoples of Middle-earth _and about half of _Morgoth's Ring_. I've read _The Silmarillion_ once and _Unfinished Tales_ once. I promise you that. 



Lady_of_Gondor said:


> And then, there are the rest of us, who may or may not feel completely at ease here, but don't want to leave entirely because it is a great place to discuss Tolkien. Illuin put it nicely when he said,
> 
> 
> 
> Illuin said:
> 
> 
> 
> A lot of people are passionate about Tolkien, but they don’t know the material as well as others, and are probably nervous about posting something for fear they’ll look like an idiot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am going to give myself as an example, since I know nobody's experience but my own. Illuin's point is basically how I have felt, and I am generally not afraid of public speaking or web-forum posting. I go through periods of activity here. I joined just before the release of the films and enjoyed discussing on here for a little while until posts all the 'loremasters' made me self-conscience. Then when the films came out, I hung out here a bit more because the atmosphere became more laid-back. But now! Now I think the forum has gotten more complicated than I ever could have imagined - and I have gotten A LOT smarter and become a more sensitive reader after four years of college!. After having spent only a few days back here, I am starting to think that I am over my head.
Click to expand...

 
Then I pray that you don't continue to think that L_o_G as I thought your contributions in _LOTR as a Metaphor for Our Lives_ thread were excellent and conveyed not an academic understanding of acquired knowledge but the *far more important *literary understanding of the text through the eyes of the author himself (who is often forgotten in the process). I hope that I haven't made you feel _over your head_ as I actually think the contrary. You've found somewhere where you're right on par.



Lady_of_Gondor said:


> To be quite honest, I am not sure I will ever read The History of Middle Earth (and I KNOW I am not alone on that one), and maybe that makes me less of a fan of Tolkien than some members on this forum, but it does not mean that I am not a fan of Tolkien, if you follow me.


 
Follow you completely L_o_G. I don't think I'll ever read HoME either! 



Lady_of_Gondor said:


> But on some level, a person with my interest level might feel unwelcome here. Consider the following statement by Ulairi:
> 
> 
> 
> Úlairi said:
> 
> 
> 
> However, I think this is an incredibly poor excuse not to engage in intellectual discussion and simply just sit on your hands instead and wait for the next generation to post and dilute the quality of this forum.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I realize this was primarily aimed at Illuin, so I may seem out of line, but it seems that you are trying to suggest that posts of a lower quality than what you or other 'loremasters' contribute are unwelcome.
Click to expand...

 
The only reason I find them unwelcome is because they erode the quality of discussion available to those who may have a greater understanding of_ The Legendarium_. You're all quite concerned how those new to _The Tolkien Experience_ should be catered to without acknowledging those who are the ones _remembered _for making the forum what it was (and still is to a degree). These people should also be taken into consideration and should *also *be catered to (and I know Illuin's in the shadows waiting to jump in with _The Annals of the Eldanyárë _but face facts mate - there are *3* people active in there). I acknowledge these posts have their place and are actually *necessary* in the development of future loremasters - and this is where I'll bring Cían back into the discussion. 



Lady_of_Gondor said:


> Who is to say that posts that are not quite so intellectually stimulating would 'dilute the quality of the forum'? You are welcome to continue posting threads that resemble the beginnings of a dissertation if you like, and there are a few people on here who will take the bite and give you the intellectual satisfaction that you crave, but if you are hoping that everybody on the Tolkien Forum is going to be interested in that type of discussion, you are probably mistaken.


 
I think I'd have to be a little naïve to believe that TTF is going to be full of noob loremasters in the next few years.  They will dilute the quality of discussion; that is inexorable. However, as aforementioned, I realize that it is a *necessary evil*. We need discussions such as those as they will eventually generate some wonderful new members. What upsets me (and this is why the quote above wasn't directed at Illuin but at *all of you*) is that you are waiting for the next generation to come so you can join in the dilution process when you should be (if you're serious about being here) attempting to gain a higher understanding not just of Tolkien - but of literary analysis in general. I personally believe in self-improvement in all aspects of life and Cían (unknowingly) forced me to do this. Instead of complaining that TTF was full of noob-hungry lore-wolves I sat down and progressively ensured that my posts were of higher quality. I too know what it's like to be _post-burned_ - it sucks! But I'm not going to lie there sucking my thumb wishing I was someplace else. I'm going to fight back with more coherent, ordered and (quasi-relative, Illuin ) logical responses. I don't want *everyone* to be interested, I'll just settle for *more than 3 or 4*. 



Lady_of_Gondor said:


> Now, it was stated that this thread was meant to reminisce about the great members who are now gone. And that's a wonderful idea! However, I think that you have to continue to accept the Forum as it is.


 
I already have. That's why I'm a member of forums and communities elsewhere. I accept (and still love) TTF for what it is. When you love something you want to see it transcend and become greater than itself in every way. There is nothing wrong about having such aspirations as I'm sure it was these concepts that put _dapence_ infront of his computer one fateful night, and typed those three first words: _The Tolkien Forum_.



Lady_of_Gondor said:


> If the forum once included many members capable of analyzing Tolkien to the level that some do here, that must have really been a 'Golden Age' (doubtless, one I chose to absent myself from). But, as with every golden age, it must come to an end. And so some members have moved on. Maybe they will come back. Let's hope so. But let's also let the forum be what it will be.


 
A Golden Age may come to an end; but there's no reason why another can't take its place...

I can see there may be some attempts to bring this thread to a premature end but I am not attempting to discredit TTF or its current members in anyway; I'm just a voice crying in the wilderness...  We know that this next generation is coming and that it should bring back some golden oldies with it. So let's talk about who of those we wish to see return without sinking into the mediocre concepts of _it is what it is_ - as such concepts are complaisance's ugly cousin. Accept the status quo but don't embrace it.

*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


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## ltnjmy

*"The Decline of TTF"*

I'm a relatively new member so I cannot speak to whether or not this wonderful forum has "declined".

I must say that since I became a member - I have found it to be one of the most fascinating sites on the Internet that I have ever gone on or become involved with.

I love virtually all of the postings that I have read thus far and the fact that they have greatly increased my knowledge of Professor Tolkien's wonderful works. I only wish that I had the money right now to buy the H.O.M.E. and to buy a compilation of Professor Tolkien's letters so that I could read them and contribute more effectively.

I agree that once The Hobbit movies come out - there will be a great influx of new members. But for those who are still here - please DON'T leave - I can definitely say that as a newbie - I love this website and would greatly miss reading some of the fabulous postings of individuals like Illuin, Ulari, RangerStryder and many others (whose names escape me at the moment) if they departed...

(Ps. this website is far superior than theonering.com !!)


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## Úlairi

Out of the mouth of newbies... 

Fantastic! Thank *you* for such a wonderful post Itnjmy! I think I can happily rest my case here. If a new member like Itnjmy isn't petrified by lore-wolves then I see no reason why others should be.

*Cheers Itnjmy,*

*Úlairi.*


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## Lady_of_Gondor

It is not a matter of being petrified of the 'lore-wolves'. It is simply how one sees the purpose of The Tolkien Forum. Clearly, Ulairi, you are going to want the Forum to maintain a high level of academic integrity. And I have to say that TTF is one of the few web message boards I've been on where this has been possible. I also would not want suggest that people should post at a lower level than they want to.

However, we have to think about the medium of web message boards in general and what they represent. To me, it seems that most message boards are places for casual (not to say ignorant) discussions of topics that interest a certain group of people. Perhaps I am overlooking something, but when I first joined TTF, it seemed that this site was no different. In any case, I never found a mission statement claiming that the objective of the web-site was in-depth literary analysis. 

I also would agree that all members should do their best to post meaningfully and *intelligently*. But, Ulairi, you claim that some of your posts took weeks to compose with the background knowledge you put into them, and then you complain that only two people will respond. Not to sound harsh, but most people don't have that kind of time. People don't come onto web forums to produce highly-polished academic works; they come on to cultivate ideas by tossing them back and forth. 

I know what it is like to feel like you put a lot of work into something and to come up shorthanded when nobody responds. So I looked at one of the threads you started (one of the ones with the Elvish titles), and there were a lot of ideas in it, so many that you had to put your questions in two separate posts. Responding to a thread like that requires more than wit and background knowledge; it requires time and patience. 

I don't want to insult your intentions, Ulairi, because you seem like an incredibly smart person, but it seems like you expect an awful lot of the members of TTF, considering it is a web forum. I'm not saying that gives people permission to make completely inane and stupid posts. But it is important to understand the media you are working with, and a web forum is, in most cases, a place for the casual exchange of ideas.


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## Alcuin

I think it is important that younger and less-experienced or widely-read (in Tolkien material, at any rate) members of the forum are comfortable participating. By that I mean that an eighth-grader who’s just finished reading The Hobbit and then The Lord of the Rings should not be dismayed at the prospect of asking a question or putting forth an opinion, and so fail to post. Nor should an older poster who has loved Tolkien for many decades but never had the time to read History of Middle-earth believe that he has nothing to contribute, or that the more vigorous members of the forum will tear him into tiny little shreds just for fun, or because they disagree with the opinions he presents. 

None of us enjoys being ripped to shreds in an internet forum. (Well, almost none of us: I’ve run across some folks who seem to seek it out, but that’s another matter…) 

The contrapositive of a true statement is also true. The Golden Rule is, “As you want others to deal with you, you deal with them.” Alfred the Great made the contrapositive of the Golden Rule the foundation of English Common Law, and it remains the foundation of our legal system to this day, which is what makes English Common Law (and its sometimes wayward child, American common law) unique among legal systems and beloved by its people, despite the many failings of humans in jurisprudence: “*What you don’t want done to you, don’t do to others.*”


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## Arvedui

I cannot speak for others than myself, but my personal reasons for not participating as much as I used to are multiple and intertwined. And they all come down to the hardships of that horrible thing called "real life." 
I do have time to drop by here every now and then, but I do not have the time to study JRR Tolkien's works as I once did.
And so perhaps the suggestion from *Lady_of_Gondor* a bit further up in this thread is rather on the spot: I really don't have anymore to contribute at the moment.

I do however have a suggestion for Durin VII: *jallan*


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## Firawyn

> *MEMBERS WHOSE CURRENT WHEREABOUTS ARE UNKNOWN*​
> Alcuin
> YayGollum
> Firawyn​



Checking in! Been busy in grown-up-land. Was also re-reading LotR again, so my Tolkien "fix" was thus taken care of.  Missed you guys!



> When I came back I was severely disappointed at the quality of the posts here (and to a degree I still am) but then I ran into (relatively) new members such as Illuin, Alcuin, Firawyn and Galin and realized that all was not lost. I wanted quite badly to go spear-fishing for them instead (I certainly did go the wrong way about it ) and reap the reward of a much larger catch.



Úlairi, we are not fish. We are people. That makes us equals to engage yourself with, not underlings to catch and turn to what you desire. 

However, I'm happy to know that I was among those you did not mark as lost causes.


----------



## Turgon

Although I'm sure I've not been missed at all I realise that what this forum really needs is about three of four Tolkien newcomers to come along and ask a shed load of questions. All this stuff about TTF veterans is a load of rubbish... get over yourselves.

The greatest Tolkien question that will ever be asked is something along the lines of: Why are trolls purses the mischief?


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## Illuin

> Originally posted by Turgon
> _Although I'm sure I've not been missed at all_


 
Check out post #8.


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## Úlairi

Turgon said:


> Although I'm sure I've not been missed at all I realise that what this forum really needs is about three of four Tolkien newcomers to come along and ask a shed load of questions. All this stuff about TTF veterans is a load of rubbish... get over yourselves.
> 
> The greatest Tolkien question that will ever be asked is something along the lines of: Why are trolls purses the mischief?


 
It looks as though someone's nursing a little inferiority complex there...






Perhaps you should get over yourself too, Turgon. The TTF "vets" are the ones that keep this board active and alive without whimpering whiners like you...

*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


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## Firawyn

Turgon, Úlairi, both of you can just cut it out. Last I checked the two of you were mature young men. Stop acting like five year olds. 

Both of you, along with all the TTF veterans and the newbes, and everyone else in between are valuable members to TTF. 

This *is not* a contest.

This *is not* about who knows more about Tolkien and his works.

This *is* about a group of people from all over the world who love Tolkien and want to learn more about him and his works. _

Group._ 

As in team effort.

Have I made my point clear?


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## Illuin

Post number 666. I couldn't resist .


It’s Mr. Barlow from Salem’s Lot (1979 - Stephen King). It looks exactly like a certain Orc from TTT to me; and we know PJ loved his horror movies. Hmmm.


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## Úlairi

Lady_of_Gondor said:


> It is not a matter of being petrified of the 'lore-wolves'. It is simply how one sees the purpose of The Tolkien Forum. Clearly, Ulairi, you are going to want the Forum to maintain a high level of academic integrity. And I have to say that TTF is one of the few web message boards I've been on where this has been possible. I also would not want suggest that people should post at a lower level than they want to.


 
I'm glad that you believe that people *shouldn't *post at a lower level but not so much about the addition: "_than they want to_". This board should at the very least be aiming to enrich the quality of discussion which (as I've already mentioned) often requires that others do the same.



Lady_of_Gondor said:


> However, we have to think about the medium of web message boards in general and what they represent. To me, it seems that most message boards are places for casual (not to say ignorant) discussions of topics that interest a certain group of people. Perhaps I am overlooking something, but when I first joined TTF, it seemed that this site was no different. In any case, I never found a mission statement claiming that the objective of the web-site was in-depth literary analysis.


 
I was simply vociferating that we, as the members, can constantly evolve the objective, purpose and mission statement of this board and that *one* of these objectives should be to increase the quantity of quality...



Lady_of_Gondor said:


> I also would agree that all members should do their best to post meaningfully and *intelligently*. But, Ulairi, you claim that some of your posts took weeks to compose with the background knowledge you put into them, and then you complain that only two people will respond. Not to sound harsh, but most people don't have that kind of time. People don't come onto web forums to produce highly-polished academic works; they come on to cultivate ideas by tossing them back and forth.


 
The study took weeks but the composition not so long. I also often draw on more sources than just Tolkien as I find it to be more conducive to my understanding. However, I do expect that more people respond as despite the analysis in the original post people can often answer such questions in a few sentences - and sometime the greatest and most poignant of epiphanies and revelations derive from that which is short, sweet and perplexingly simple.



Lady_of_Gondor said:


> I know what it is like to feel like you put a lot of work into something and to come up shorthanded when nobody responds. So I looked at one of the threads you started (one of the ones with the Elvish titles), and there were a lot of ideas in it, so many that you had to put your questions in two separate posts. Responding to a thread like that requires more than wit and background knowledge; it requires time and patience.


 
Wit, knowledge and patience can be improved through the participation in such topics. They are not intended to ward off those who have not even read the text as most of my threads have a potent philosophical construct upon which they are based. Concepts such as free will, choice and evil are intelligible to most people and thus the topic is not beyond their intellectual reach. It's just that they do not wish to deliberate over such matters as it often requires *too much thought and analysis*. It is this overwhelming sense of apathy that doesn't just exist here on TTF that exasperates me. I understand the problematic nature of time however. But one cannot say that they do not have _any _time whatsoever.



Lady_of_Gondor said:


> I don't want to insult your intentions, Ulairi, because you seem like an incredibly smart person, but it seems like you expect an awful lot of the members of TTF, considering it is a web forum. I'm not saying that gives people permission to make completely inane and stupid posts. But it is important to understand the media you are working with, and a web forum is, in most cases, a place for the casual exchange of ideas.


 
Fëanor forged the Silmarils from different media into something lustrous and beautiful to the point that they were coveted. Re-forging TTF into something of a similar nature is not beyond our ability; it is simply beyond collective desire and that to me, is ridiculously disappointing. I'm not writing my thesis - but there is no reason why the casual exchange of ideas cannot become a furnace of colloquium where ideas are melted and broken down into one another to forge threads more imaginative, thought-provoking and poignant. Why can't we forge TTF into something more incredible? We deliberate over the works of one man who invented a spectacular world for us to explore - but aren't two heads still better than one? Can't the works of Tolkien become more beautiful through a greater understanding of them?



Alcuin said:


> I think it is important that younger and less-experienced or widely-read (in Tolkien material, at any rate) members of the forum are comfortable participating. By that I mean that an eighth-grader who’s just finished reading The Hobbit and then The Lord of the Rings should not be dismayed at the prospect of asking a question or putting forth an opinion, and so fail to post. Nor should an older poster who has loved Tolkien for many decades but never had the time to read History of Middle-earth believe that he has nothing to contribute, or that the more vigorous members of the forum will tear him into tiny little shreds just for fun, or because they disagree with the opinions he presents.


 
Yes, which is why the fora have been separated as such. I have already addressed this aspect of the discussion above. However, as already stated, shouldn't the wants of those who desire deeper exploration of Tolkien also be catered to? Is there anything truly wrong in correcting those who misunderstand certain elements to increase their knowledge and thus empower them to engage in and invent topics that require the enhancement of thought and move beyond themselves and, God forbid, what they're _comfortable _with?



Alcuin said:


> None of us enjoys being ripped to shreds in an internet forum. (Well, almost none of us: I’ve run across some folks who seem to seek it out, but that’s another matter…)


 
I'll admit I get kicks out of being ripped to shreds; because if I'm wrong I'll go back to my books, lick my wounds and understand why and where I misunderstood certain concepts and ideas and this enhances not just knowledge; but far more importantly: wisdom.



Firawyn said:


> Úlairi, we are not fish. We are people. That makes us equals to engage yourself with, not underlings to catch and turn to what you desire.
> 
> However, I'm happy to know that I was among those you did not mark as lost causes.


 
No, you are far from a lost cause, Firawyn. 



Matthew 4:19 said:


> *... I will make you fishers of men.*


 
Nothing wrong with a little fishing from time to time, Firawyn. 



Firawyn said:


> Turgon, Úlairi, both of you can just cut it out. Last I checked the two of you were mature young men. Stop acting like five year olds.


 
Yes, Mum! 



Firawyn said:


> Both of you, along with all the TTF veterans and the newbes, and everyone else in between are valuable members to TTF.


 
I don't consider someone who meanders into a thread and personally attacks people without justification to feel better about their own mediocrity, especially when they also complain of it, to be a valuable member of anything whatsoever. 



Firawyn said:


> This *is not* a contest.
> 
> This *is not* about who knows more about Tolkien and his works.


 
I wouldn't need to contest anyone with such an opinion of others; it would be an incredibly easy victory.



Firawyn said:


> This *is* about a group of people from all over the world who love Tolkien and want to learn more about him and his works.
> 
> _Group._
> 
> As in team effort.
> 
> Have I made my point clear?


 
And *this*, Firawyn, if you haven't noticed, is *exactly *what I was discussing above before Turgon whinged about how no one missed him and how pothetic we all were. Turgon deviated from this concept of a collective mentality of propogation of this forum to further splendour and had to make it all about his insignificant self. That... is just too damn low without having to comment about it. Fortunately in life, you often get to *choose* who is in your team. Shame you can't do it here...
Illuin, that was hilarious and congrats and your 666th post.





Arvedui, excellent suggestion about jallan - from memory (s)he made great contributions to the forum.

*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


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## Prince of Cats

Turgon said:


> I realise that what this forum really needs is about three of four Tolkien newcomers to come along and ask a shed load of questions. All this stuff about TTF veterans is a load of rubbish... get over yourselves.
> 
> The greatest Tolkien question that will ever be asked is something along the lines of: Why are trolls purses the mischief?



_Awesome_, Turgon - I totally agree

And YES what's with those mischievous purses?


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## Lady_of_Gondor

Turgon may have gone on the defensive a bit in his post, but his point was still valid, which is (as I understand it, along with what Firawyn and myself have been saying as well) that it is a little bit arrogant and kind of pointless to complain on this forum about how it isn't meeting your standards because not everybody has the desire to post the way you do (or the elusive missing veterans did), Ulairi. And that is what I meant with my addendum, 'lower than they want to'.

This is, after all a public forum. And you would probably accuse me and others of laziness or apathy because we have a different style of posting than you do, which you apparently deem inferior with your assertion that we should "strive to forge anew the Tolkien Forum as Fëanor forged anew the Silmarils" (paraphrase). It's unfortunate for you, Ulairi, that the majority of the current posters do not meet your standards. But if the 'Annals' forum has seen less activity of late, it might just be that most people are happy to continue posting more casually in other places on the forum.

You are faced with a dilemma of sorts - that of acceptance. You can stand there and whine on about how people just don't try hard enough or you can accept that this is a message board where people are happy to pose questions on a whim, talk about silly matters, make comparisons with Middle Earth and real life, and often enough with many of the members still active (yourself, Alcuin, Firawyn, HLGStrider to name a few that I have noticed in my recent return here) debate deep and philosophical concepts that require more time and energy. 

Time and energy spent toward better understanding is always well-spent. That is something you and I would most definately agree on, Ulairi. However, where I differ here is that you cannot expect a whole forum to change (reforge itself) because of that. The people who aren't putting time and energy into TTF might be spending it elsewhere (raising a family, working, practicing a sport, or in my case, planning lessons and doing freelance translations on the side), and that includes your worthy veterans. It is not apathetic to say that we must accept that. It is realistic. The people who want to post in the Annals already do. As for me, and that eigth-grader Alcuin made reference to, we might stick to the simpler forums for a while! Personally, I don't feel guilty.


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## Úlairi

I'm simply awestruck at the fact that one can now receive an infraction for such a mild comment. This forum needs to remove the stick from its a$$. Gonna give me another infraction, Ithrynluin? For a "Forum Insult"? Or was it enough to constitute an infraction for insulting you as I put your name in this post? I hope this isn't taken out of context either! 

*All the best TTF,*

*Úlairi.*


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## Ithrynluin

Oh come now, surely an agent of chaos, here to incite rebellion, isn't awestruck but prepared to face the consequences for taking upon himself such a noble cause.


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## Úlairi

Whilst there are various aspects of this board that are _noble_; there certainly is no _cause_ fighting for here, whatsoever. 

You could charm the paint off a wall, Ithrynluin.  Careful you don't smile too hard through clenched teeth; you might get a jaw-ache... 

P.S. You should try translating the Quenya quote below to contextualize the Heath Ledger quote above it; as you seem so interested in my signature it might give you a better insight before you jump to conclusions...

*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


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## Illuin

What’s the problem with posting anything you want (in good taste)? Aren't forums supposed to be "fun". So what if it’s serious, trivial, funny, light, heavy, and even outright stupid. Take Mr. Barlow for instance. He didn’t lighten things up like I had hoped, but it was impulsive, and I just felt like doing it (though I don’t understand how anyone can resist such a cute face; I was expecting a resounding *awww*!). I really don’t care what the post is about; *as long as there is a post*. Sure beats an empty forum. There is room for all; and if someone wanted to post something like:

_On a lipstick kleenex hung on a pointed forked twig, above one red beak stuck in the bottom of a small tin pail, is injust injest infeast infest incest in specks in speckled cans of shish-kabob mouse flexing their magic mustaches upon the straw hill_

Who cares!!! Go for it. Lots of people and diversity are what we need here. I come here to have some fun.


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## Lady_of_Gondor

Here Here Illuin. You have said concisely exactly what I've been thinking!


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## Uminya

I think Turgon has the gist of it, really. Veterans and Experts really start to miss the point of it all after a time, and what keeps a community thriving is not for a resurrection of dinosaurs, but of change and new blood. TTF is not great because of it's crusty old farts who already know (or at least claim to know) everything there is to know about Tolkien, but of the new people that come here with fresh new questions and a thirst for things that they don't yet know. I envy them, for the world is still a mystery to those who know little of it, and they have the chance to feel the ecstasy of uncovering new things at every turn.

TTF will live on, as long as we continue to get fresh new faces with fresh, new questions. We stale, old fixtures are simply that


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## Illuin

I'm liking this cyberspace thing. The young that have been here in the forums forever call themselves old, and the old farts like me who are newbies in the forum are viewed as the young. I can live with that. By the way, this debate is really bizarre. Why doesn’t everyone young (like me ) and old join the party and simply have some fun. I’m just not gettin' this whole thing, but maybe it's just me .


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## Firawyn

Ciryaher said:


> I think Turgon has the gist of it, really. Veterans and Experts really start to miss the point of it all after a time, and what keeps a community thriving is not for a resurrection of dinosaurs, but of change and new blood. TTF is not great because of it's crusty old farts who already know (or at least claim to know) everything there is to know about Tolkien, but of the new people that come here with fresh new questions and a thirst for things that they don't yet know. I envy them, for the world is still a mystery to those who know little of it, and they have the chance to feel the ecstasy of uncovering new things at every turn.
> 
> TTF will live on, as long as we continue to get fresh new faces with fresh, new questions. We stale, old fixtures are simply that



I agree with this, to a point Cir. I've been here, what - almost 6 years now? I still don't claim to know _a fraction_ of Tolkien's collected works. I think that's why I love Tolkien so much - because it will take me a lifetime to even begin to think that I know all there is to know about Tolkien. 

What we "stale, old fixtures", need to do is step back, and start to ask questions to which we don't already know the answers to. I see it so often - people post threads to start a discussion on a topic that they have already done mounds of research on. For example (because I am as guilty of this as the next one!), I tend to linger in the _LotR_ forums because that's what I'm most familiar with. However, I rarely enter the Sil section because I don't know enough about the Sil to even begin to look intelligent! For myself (call it a late new years resolution), I'm going to start spending more time in the Sil forums, because I want to learn more! "_The old that is strong does not wither." _Sound familiar? 



Now, back to you, Úlairi - 



> Yes, Mum!


Start that and I'll find some way to magically put soap in your mouth next time you speak before you think. 



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Matthew 4:19*
> _*... I will make you fishers of men.*_
> 
> Nothing wrong with a little fishing from time to time, Firawyn.


Oh. So cute. And perfect comeback, I have to admit.  But, I stand my ground - we are not your pray to be hunted, whatever word picture you want to use. 



> I don't consider someone who meanders into a thread and personally attacks people without justification to feel better about their own mediocrity, especially when they also complain of it, to be a valuable member of anything whatsoever.


Well that is just your very sad opinion. Every single creature (this is in the Bible somewhere, probably somewhere in the plural form) has value in the eyes of the Creator.  Don't play the God/Bible card if you don't want it to be used against you, Úlairi. 



> And *this*, Firawyn, if you haven't noticed, is *exactly *what I was discussing above before Turgon whinged about how no one missed him and how pothetic we all were. Turgon deviated from this concept of a collective mentality of propogation of this forum to further splendour and had to make it all about his insignificant self. That... is just too damn low without having to comment about it.


Oh? So you felt justified to lash out in return? You may want to try practicing what you preach sometime. 



> Fortunately in life, you often get to *choose* who is in your team. Shame you can't do it here...


No one is making you be a member of TTF. If you don't like the team, you are quite free to quit.


----------



## Úlairi

Illuin said:


> What’s the problem with posting anything you want (in good taste)?


 
Well, it depends on how you define good taste. I myself find it to be in good taste to defend my position after being insulted. Unfortunately the problem with posting _anything_ you want in that context is that you get overbearing moderators being sarcastic and chucking infraction points at you.



Ciryaher said:


> TTF will live on, as long as we continue to get fresh new faces with fresh, new questions. We stale, old fixtures are simply that


 
Guess there's really no point in us being here anymore then, is there Cir? 



Ciryaher said:


> I envy them, for the world is still a mystery to those who know little of it, and they have the chance to feel the ecstasy of uncovering new things at every turn.


 
Those who think they know little often know much; and those who think they know much often know little. I think you'd be astounded with how little you actually know, Ciryaher.



Illuin said:


> I’m just not gettin' this whole thing, but maybe it's just me .


 
Me neither, Big Blue.



Firawyn said:


> What we "stale, old fixtures", need to do is step back, and start to ask questions to which we don't already know the answers to. I see it so often - people post threads to start a discussion on a topic that they have already done mounds of research on.


 
And I've been doing this quite often (such as _Tolkien's Eden _and _The Life of the Silmarils _- this one in particular) and thank God for Alcuin. That guy is fantastic. I'm adding him to my Durin VII list.



Firawyn said:


> Start that and I'll find some way to magically put soap in your mouth next time you speak before you think.


 
Yes, with the Ring of Lavender Soapy Power.



Firawyn said:


> Oh. So cute. And perfect comeback, I have to admit.  But, I stand my ground - we are not your pray to be hunted, whatever word picture you want to use.


 
*drops TTF newbie carcass at the feet of Firawyn*

Guess I should stop talking with my mouth full then? And no, it ain't full of the other thing.



Firawyn said:


> Well that is just your very sad opinion. Every single creature (this is in the Bible somewhere, probably somewhere in the plural form) has value in the eyes of the Creator.  Don't play the God/Bible card if you don't want it to be used against you, Úlairi.


 
I think there's something about _an eye for an eye _in there, somewhere. 

Sorry, what was that? I can't really see how your playing the Bible card against me when it's in the Bible somewhere in the plural form. Little too ambiguous for any card to be played really.



Firawyn said:


> Oh? So you felt justified to lash out in return? You may want to try practicing what you preach sometime.


 
_Eye for an eye_?  I see no problem in self-defence - unfortunately there is only one way you can do it on an internet board - and walking away isn't defending yourself (unless its physical).



Firawyn said:


> No one is making you be a member of TTF. If you don't like the team, you are quite free to quit.


 
And I know this is the growing collective sentiment about my presence here. If you want to trade in this stale, old, used car for a brand new shiny one with no engine that's perfectly fine. I'm considering it.

*Cheers and all the best,*

*Úlairi.*


----------



## chrysophalax

Good grief, not again. 

First of all, as far as I know, only one moderator sanctioned Ulairi, not all of us.

Secondly, why do members have to go after each other on a personal level? There are some among us that live very difficult lives outside this forum and they come here to escape. If they happen to get a bit testy, so what? As long as they don't get personal, let them rant! That's one reason we have the Real Life Rantings Thread.

Thirdly, if any member has a problem, take it to a Mod and let them deal with it rather than spread it all over the forum for everyone to see. Internal strife is never a good thing and hardly encouraging to our new members. I know many of us act like we're family, but is it necessary to be a dysfunctional one? Play nice!


----------



## HLGStrider

I think where TTF gets ugly is when we decide to start these side threads defending and attacking each others actions. 

Honestly, I've been looking for the button, but I know there used to be a way to ignore a poster so that you can't see what they are typing. Is this option still available? 

If it is I suggest the following: If you think a person has nothing to offer or is hell bent on just annoying/insulting you, hit that button, pretend they don't exist. It is so much better than going back and forth with someone who is obviously never going to agree with you. 


As a mod I don't like to censor anyone (I make an exception for crude language, I generally edit that out with a passion because I know how young I was when I joined the forum and I want this place to be safe for people who were as innocent as I was back then). However, I have had issues with people on this forum in the past and have come to realize some people just don't like me as a person, this will taint their view of whatever opinion I have, and therefore arguing with them is completely pointless. 

Rather than take a heavy handed authoritarian approach (ie have the mods take care of this) I would really like to see people just being choosy about what they respond to, sort of turning off the TV instead of calling the FCC and complaining about the trash on the networks.


----------



## Firawyn

chrysophalax said:


> Good grief, not again.
> 
> Secondly, why do members have to go after each other on a personal level? There are some among us that live very difficult lives outside this forum and they come here to escape. If they happen to get a bit testy, so what? As long as they don't get personal, let them rant! That's one reason we have the Real Life Rantings Thread.
> 
> Thirdly, if any member has a problem, take it to a Mod and let them deal with it rather than spread it all over the forum for everyone to see. Internal strife is never a good thing and hardly encouraging to our new members. I know many of us act like we're family, but is it necessary to be a dysfunctional one? Play nice!



I think, Chrys, as you pointed out, alot of us do view TTF as a sort of family. You are quite correct in saying we by no means are required to be a dysfunctional one! I'll back down. 

However, in light of this, I have to say that it is because of that very fact that Úlairi, myself, and I'm quite sure many others, feel the need to defend ourselves so strongly when insulted. 




by Úlairi said:


> *drops TTF newbie carcass at the feet of Firawyn*
> .



I rest my case. That's disgusting. 




> Rather than take a heavy handed authoritarian approach (ie have the mods take care of this) I would really like to see people just being choosy about what they respond to, sort of turning off the TV instead of calling the FCC and complaining about the trash on the networks.



While this sounds brilliant in theory, in practice it would kill TTF completely. People will post less and less, and in time find no reason to post at all, and by your analogy, "throw the TV out."


----------



## Uminya

Úlairi said:


> Well, it depends on how you define good taste. I myself find it to be in good taste to defend my position after being insulted. Unfortunately the problem with posting _anything_ you want in that context is that you get overbearing moderators being sarcastic and chucking infraction points at you.



Perhaps the fault lies with you, and not just with the Moderators? This site has VERY lenient moderators, and I think that if you receive a warning, it is for a good reason.



Ulairi said:


> Guess there's really no point in us being here anymore then, is there Cir?



I still haunt this place because I have an affection for the people here. I feel like I have little to contribute by way of discussion on Tolkien anymore, as the discussions that take place seem more like theses monologued in front of a cold audience moreso than friendly discussion amongst friends at--say--a pub.



Ulairi said:


> Those who think they know little often know much; and those who think they know much often know little. I think you'd be astounded with how little you actually know, Ciryaher.



I'm very aware of my own ignorance, and--as time goes by--my memories of what I once knew slowly decay and erode. That will change, of course, whenever I feel the urge to pick up the HoME books again; but I don't have them with me. When I do actually have a question or a thought, I am often compelled to not bother asking it here, because I don't want to be talked down to. *shrug*


----------



## HLGStrider

fir said:


> While this sounds brilliant in theory, in practice it would kill TTF completely. People will post less and less, and in time find no reason to post at all, and by your analogy, "throw the TV out."



Well, my theory does assume that people only have one or two people they'd do this to.


----------



## Uminya

You can ignore a person by clicking their name and going to their public profile. Below their name will be a dropdown box called "User Lists" which allows you to add that member to your "Ignore" list.

Just FYI.


----------



## Firawyn

HLGStrider said:


> Well, my theory does assume that people only have one or two people they'd do this to.




Never assume anything.  It will make an a s s (of) u (and) me.

However, I was referring to what you said regarding people being more choosy in what they reply to.


----------



## Walter

TTF had quite a few valuable contributors back then, the most knowledgeable of which - IMHO - were indeed Jallan and Cian. 

But to keep an online-community like TTF alive and kicking it takes more than just the knowledgeable and well-read "loremasters". Many good-humored and openminded people who enjoyed reading and discussing Tolkien's works also crowded this place and made it a comfortable place for everyone - most of the time that is...

And there were a few, like Harad and some others, TTF - again IMHO - could've easily done without. Some got banned, others not, a few are still here, I noticed. Such people can easily generate a climate where communications become poisoned for quite a while.

I'm not sure whether it were just the upcoming films which kept TTF busy or if there were other reasons, why this place has gotten so quiet in the past few years. But still, TTF doesn't resemble Moria, not yet...


----------



## Ancalagon

You tend to see these threads pop up every so often, yearning for glory days of full flowing debates and discussions. From what I see those discussions of Tolkiens work continue here unabated, contributed to by both old and new members alike and are still as intriguing to read as ever they were.

Oddly enough, I recall threads bemoaning the demise of the forum even when the forum was at its most active and yet here we are, years down the line and still The Tolkien Forum is going strong. 

Personally, I am not well versed on Tolkiens works anymore (not that I ever was, compared to the likes of Cian, Jallan and many others). For me to return with gusto and offer worthwhile contribution would mean simply starting at the beginning and taking a full autumn/winter to re-read the works, starting with The Hobbit. I have no doubt that will happen but not in the foreseeable future.
Interestingly, a lot of people will start with the hobbit soon enough no doubt bringing new, thirsty minds out of the woodwork looking for a forum to debate the burning questions that have been discussed in great detail over the last decade. All I can say is encourage the debate no matter how many times the question has been asked before, but just please don't post links telling them to read some archived thread. I was guilty of that myself at times in the past and regret it now.

One other point to note, The Tolkien Forum has long outlasted other extremely notable Tolkien forums that didn't survive long enough to see the Hobbit being made. I suspect it will continue to last for as long as it takes Unfinished Tales to be serialised on network television! And of course, as long as the owner continues to provide it for us all to enjoy

Nice to see you all btw


----------



## Ithrynluin

Nice to see some old f...riends p) like Walt and Anc pop in again. We've been missing the creaking of wheelchairs lately. 

Great to see you, fellas!


----------



## Walter

Ithrynluin said:


> Nice to see some old f...riends p) like Walt and Anc pop in again. We've been missing the creaking of wheelchairs lately.
> 
> Great to see you, fellas!


Wheelchairs, huh?


----------



## Turgon

Walter said:


> Wheelchairs, huh?



Pfft... Walter was using a wheel chair five years ago - I'm sure he's moved on to a bathchair by now...


----------



## Ancalagon

Most likely a luxury, floating commode


----------



## chrysophalax

Wow, I've missed you guys! Now, where's the Balrog Lord??


----------



## Úlairi

Ciryaher said:


> Perhaps the fault lies with you, and not just with the Moderators? This site has VERY lenient moderators, and I think that if you receive a warning, it is for a good reason.


 
Alright, I'm going to say this and that will be my peace. 

Frankly I'm *astounded* that nothing (including your _exaybachay _comment, Ciryaher) constituted a _personal attack _in [URL="http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?t=19410[/URL"]*this* thread[/URL] (including my own) and yet calling Turgon a "_whimpering whiner_" is? I find that to be an utterly ridiculous double-standard. It's rather obvious I was the one penalized because of the inevitable bias of previous forum history. I was accused of doing so with *no *justification whatsoever. I recommend you actually go back and read the thread. So no, Cir, there was no _good _reason at all; except for the sheer enjoyment of playing pin the tail on the donkey.



Ciryaher said:


> I still haunt this place because I have an affection for the people here. I feel like I have little to contribute by way of discussion on Tolkien anymore, as the discussions that take place seem more like theses monologued in front of a cold audience moreso than friendly discussion amongst friends at--say--a pub.


 
Being told that I'm stale and old (whilst *obviously *not being a _personal attack_ at all ) simply undermines anything that I try to accomplish here. Virtually I'm just being told to shut-up, pack my bags and move on as what I post is ultimately irrelevant anyway. If you want to go to the pub - do so; I'm not stopping you! Hell, I went and got s**t-faced the other night with some mates. It's so damn fulfilling and life-changing. 



Ciryaher said:


> I'm very aware of my own ignorance, and--as time goes by--my memories of what I once knew slowly decay and erode. That will change, of course, whenever I feel the urge to pick up the HoME books again; but I don't have them with me. When I do actually have a question or a thought, I am often compelled to not bother asking it here, because I don't want to be talked down to. *shrug*


.
Likewise, which is why I try to renew it with people such as yourself instead of just waiting for people to come in so you can constructively criticize their less-informed opinions. It's just plain boring. I hate shooting for fish in a barrel.



HLGStrider said:


> If it is I suggest the following: If you think a person has nothing to offer or is hell bent on just annoying/insulting you, hit that button, pretend they don't exist. It is so much better than going back and forth with someone who is obviously never going to agree with you.


 
And you're getting this idea from one personal insult? Honestly, if you want to _switch _me off then tell me to go away. I can guarantee you if there is enough of you that want me to do so I'll be more than happy to oblige. I can take personal attacks; they often precipitate more animated and interesting discussions in threads. Everyone seems far to damn apathetic these days and complain when such an incredibly weak comment is made about another member.



Walter said:


> Such people can easily generate a climate where communications become poisoned for quite a while.


 
It's an internet forum where despite "_poisoned communications_" arise from time to time; but ultimately sticks and stones can never be used here.

Someone who flagrantly and without provocation insults people at random (and I acknowledge that and accepted my ban from TTF for that behaviour) most definitely deserve to be reprimanded - but not when those "sticks and stones" are mixed with the mortar of inflamed words to build a defence against such attacks. One just often gets sick of being the forum scapegoat because of their ancient reputation.



Ancalagon said:


> Nice to see you all btw


 
Spectacular to see you issuing forth once more from depths of Thangorodrim, O Great Winged and Decrepit Dragon! 

*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


----------



## Aulë

I'm going to keep this short and sweet.

People on this forum are a sensitive bunch. But arguing with them is a fruitless effort since they are also stubborn as mules.


----------



## Úlairi

Aulë said:


> I'm going to keep this short and sweet.
> 
> People on this forum are a sensitive bunch. But arguing with them is a fruitless effort since they are also stubborn as mules.


 
That might just be the best post I've read since my return here. 

It must just be the Australian in us, musn't it, Aulë? Just that old okker attitude. 

*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


----------



## Aulë

Úlairi said:


> That might just be the best post I've read since my return here.
> 
> It must just be the Australian in us, musn't it, Aulë? Just that old okker attitude.
> 
> *Cheers,*
> 
> *Úlairi.*


We aren't known for beating around the bush.


----------



## Úlairi

Aulë said:


> We aren't known for beating around the bush.


 
Or voting for him! 

*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


----------



## Walter

Turgon said:


> Pfft... Walter was using a wheel chair five years ago - I'm sure he's moved on to a bathchair by now...





Ancalagon said:


> Most likely a luxury, floating commode


No, a walking stick it is by now... 

Just come a little closer, so I can make you acquainted with it, my lads...


----------



## HLGStrider

> And you're getting this idea from one personal insult? Honestly, if you want to _switch _me off then tell me to go away. I can guarantee you if there is enough of you that want me to do so I'll be more than happy to oblige. I can take personal attacks; they often precipitate more animated and interesting discussions in threads. Everyone seems far to damn apathetic these days and complain when such an incredibly weak comment is made about another member.



If this is what you want, then it does seem one way to keep the peace, though it wouldn't be the conclusion I'd want. I know what it is like to feel like you are under a personal attack by a member or group of members and sometimes I simply had to step back and leave that particular argument. To me this is a better result than having people take sides. 

Honestly, I'm not getting this from any particular post/insult/comment. I'm getting this from the attitude of some people who have made it known in private that they are upset with things you have said. Some more so than others, but personally, if I start hearing "Either he goes or I go" I'd say "Can't you just ignore each other?" If Mary, Joe, Sam, and Anne are in a club and Mary can't stand Sam but likes Joe and Anne and Mary has an option just to make Sam invisible, it would be better for the club if she does so, just so that Joe and Anne aren't pulled into the fray. 

I didn't even want to get into this myself, but I thought suggesting and alternative to banning and quitting where members could handle their own issues instead of the moderators having to solve what is getting profoundly personal for some of the people involved.


----------



## Firawyn

It's kind of hard to ignore people on a discussion forum - you know, as we're all here to discuss. What would you recomend a member do if they wanted to ignore someone and that person was posting in all the discussions they wanted to post in. It would be ignorent and downright stupid to ignore that persons reply, especially if that person replied to your post...it's a nightmare of a cycle. 

Either that member ignores the person bothering him/her, and comes off as a big fat prick, or that member continues to engage in discussions with that person, which in the end lead back to insults and jabs. 

So, the way I see it, either the member sacrifices his/her own pride and self respect, or the forum suffers. Either way, I'm not to keen on the options.


----------



## HLGStrider

I personally would not see someone who ignores another person as a jerk, rather as someone who acknowledges an impasse. It takes a certain amount of detachment because you know that if you stop arguing a point the other person will assume that they've won, but the trick is not to care, and from experience in debates you don't have to acknowledge every poster in a thread, only the ones you consider to be injecting valuable content at that point. 

Presumably if you have someone on ignore, you won't even know they are posting in your thread, which can lead to some confusing gaps (As I know from my habit of ignoring people in WoW chat. I don't believe I currently have anyone on the forum ignored, though I have ignored one or two people in the past for personal reasons) but it is extremely doable. Just pretend that everything the ignored individual is saying relates only to how hot Elijah Wood is, it'll make you feel better. 

Now, as I said, this is only referring to the extreme case where this individual is making your forum experience so bad that you want to leave or feel as if you can't rest until they leave. If you can't be at peace as long as the other individual is posting, edit them off your personal forum experience.

Just remember, there is only so much power we mods have. In response to a person being rude or divisive, we have only a few weapons the wet noodle slap of "infractions" or the blunt instrument of "banishment." There really isn't a good middle ground at this point. So if you don't like what a person is saying but don't feel as if they should be banned from the forum, the mods really can't help you. If you feel things have escalated to the point where we should whip out the ban stick, that's another issue entirely, but I still think the ignore button is a good middle ground.

I know if I were on a forum and felt no one was listening to what I was saying any more I might change the method with which I was communicating. Or, if I didn't feel the opinion of those who I was in debate with mattered, I'd have to ask myself, why am I bothering to debate them in the first place?


----------



## Úlairi

HLGStrider said:


> I personally would not see someone who ignores another person as a jerk, rather as someone who acknowledges an impasse. It takes a certain amount of detachment because you know that if you stop arguing a point the other person will assume that they've won, but the trick is not to care, and from experience in debates you don't have to acknowledge every poster in a thread, only the ones you consider to be injecting valuable content at that point.


 
Yet you all seem to be clamouring for a newbie injection as you can't seem to kick the habit! Hate to break it ya sista, but noobs are going to be the ones most likely ignored in any debate! Does that therefore mean that they whom you all so desire don't contribute valuable content? If you don't know what I mean, go back and look at the _Glory Days_ and see how many poor noobs get slain (and I know a few of them by me - but hey, at least I _acknowledged _their existence!) I knew it; some of you are just sitting around waiting to become the Valar of The Tolkien Forum: The Great Powers of Arda! I want noobs so I can ignore them and look awesome by comparison. Astoundingly hypocritical...



HLGStrider said:


> Presumably if you have someone on ignore, you won't even know they are posting in your thread, which can lead to some confusing gaps (As I know from my habit of ignoring people in WoW chat. I don't believe I currently have anyone on the forum ignored, though I have ignored one or two people in the past for personal reasons) but it is extremely doable. Just pretend that everything the ignored individual is saying relates only to how hot Elijah Wood is, it'll make you feel better.


 
Hypocrisy certainly isn't a blanket that keeps me warm at night. 

Whether you ignore them in threads (for lack of valuable content) or simply click the ignore button (for "personal" reasons) you're detracting from the purpose of the boards: discussion. In the case of noobs, you may as well click the ignore button if they're not worth response for their lack of contribution. People accuse me of chasing them away and preventing them from posting in my threads - but if you in your own threads purport to be noob-friendly and then just simply ignore their existence you're practically shunning them to an even further extent! After TTF then sinks into another slump you'll point that finger right back at me...

Hypocrisy, thy name is TTF!



HLGStrider said:


> Now, as I said, this is only referring to the extreme case where this individual is making your forum experience so bad that you want to leave or feel as if you can't rest until they leave. If you can't be at peace as long as the other individual is posting, edit them off your personal forum experience.


 
Yeah, it would be nice to edit out all the BS, but you know what? At least I can deal with it...



HLGStrider said:


> Just remember, there is only so much power we mods have. In response to a person being rude or divisive, we have only a few weapons the wet noodle slap of "infractions" or the blunt instrument of "banishment." There really isn't a good middle ground at this point. So if you don't like what a person is saying but don't feel as if they should be banned from the forum, the mods really can't help you. If you feel things have escalated to the point where we should whip out the ban stick, that's another issue entirely, but I still think the ignore button is a good middle ground.


 
Still wondering if I should respond to this as I'm unsure of whether it's valuable content or not.



HLGStrider said:


> I know if I were on a forum and felt no one was listening to what I was saying any more I might change the method with which I was communicating. Or, if I didn't feel the opinion of those who I was in debate with mattered, I'd have to ask myself, why am I bothering to debate them in the first place?


 
Why indeed?



HLGStrider said:


> Honestly, I'm not getting this from any particular post/insult/comment. I'm getting this from the attitude of some people who have made it known in private that they are upset with things you have said.


 
Let them come forth and talk to me openly instead of complaining about me in private. It's just an internet forum; I can't bite your head off physically...  But I'm starting to think that there is this underlying tone that I'm not wanted here; and I think the time has come for me to leave. I'm not saying this for lamentation from those who may want me here; or for any personal glory. I actually find some of the "_newer oldies_" to be wonderfully enthralling and they are my primary reason for being here. But, I can't help but feel that in an environment where everyone is so easily offended that the truly beautiful flame that once burned here so brightly was extinguished long ago by the strangehold of complaisance.

*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


----------



## HLGStrider

Perhaps the feeling that you are not wanted comes from the fact that even when someone is sort of on your side and would rather not see you banned, you turn around and attack them by misinterpreting things they say in posts? Just maybe?



> In the case of noobs, you may as well click the ignore button if they're not worth response for their lack of contribution. People accuse me of chasing them away and preventing them from posting in my threads - but if you in your own threads purport to be noob-friendly and then just simply ignore their existence you're practically shunning them to an even further extent!



Noobs I don't mind. I never would ignore someone for being unaware/uninformed but I would ignore someone for being constantly on the attack, for turning everything I say into a rant about my personality, for choosing to read everything I say in the wrong spirit . . . there is simply no way to argue meaningfully if someone hijacks the thread where I simply said, "If you personally find someone to be rude and can't handle their posts, ignore them" into "Let's all call HLG a hypocrit because she would ignore people who are wanting to know if Tom Bombadil was Gandalf's cousin!" 

Honestly, if I wanted to read into your posts I would say that you panicked because you thought too many people would ignore you personally and so your relavence would be threatened, but that would be an assumption, and Firawyn can tell you what they say about people who assume.


----------



## Firawyn

We were all "noobs", at one point. 

I think it would do you well to remember that, Úlairi.


----------



## Illuin

Noob. What does that actually mean? Someone who is new to Tolkien; or someone who has read Tolkien’s work for say, thirty years, but is new to the forum? Anyway, I think it’s ironic that Barley was concerned his _"Decline of the Tolkien Forum"_ thread would die out with a thud many moons ago; yet it was so huge it actually spawned a satellite thread that is presently on fire. Maybe the Innkeeper should not be too hasty when selling out to Dunkin' Donuts .


----------



## Úlairi

HLGStrider said:


> Perhaps the feeling that you are not wanted comes from the fact that even when someone is sort of on your side and would rather not see you banned, you turn around and attack them by misinterpreting things they say in posts? Just maybe?


 
Maybe, but there are a few other reasons I guarantee you that. If people are whinging about me in private that would likely be a fair _assumption_.  When I said "_some of you_" I wasn't referring specifically to one person or you in particular, Elgee. I'm just beginning to wonder these days, is all... I apologize for the misinterpretation. 



HLGStrider said:


> Noobs I don't mind. I never would ignore someone for being unaware/uninformed but I would ignore someone for being constantly on the attack, for turning everything I say into a rant about my personality, for choosing to read everything I say in the wrong spirit . . .


 
*Constantly *on the _attack_? Neither am I *constantly *on the _attack_ or even _on the attack _at all!!! I've felt from Day One back here that there's been some strong bias against my return I've had to _defend _my position. People seem to forget more easily than they forgive. Unfortunately the best form of defence (to my limited understanding) is to often go on the attack. In my own opening thread I was _attacked. _That's just the way I've felt. I'm sorry to take it out on you personally, Elgee, however it just seems that as a Moderator who's receiving complaints about me I have a little personal distaste for authority figures around here in general.



HLGStrider said:


> there is simply no way to argue meaningfully if someone hijacks the thread where I simply said, "If you personally find someone to be rude and can't handle their posts, ignore them" into "Let's all call HLG a hypocrit because she would ignore people who are wanting to know if Tom Bombadil was Gandalf's cousin!"


 
That's still a legitimate question. Shouldn't ignore them for that at all... 



HLGStrider said:


> Honestly, if I wanted to read into your posts I would say that you panicked because you thought too many people would ignore you personally and so your relavence would be threatened, but that would be an assumption, and Firawyn can tell you what they say about people who assume.


 
Yeah, Firawyn's already explained this. I think your assumption is not only fair but quite insightful. Touché, Elgee. I panicked not because of a fear of my own relevance (I couldnt truly give a [email protected]) but mostly for the reasons that Firawyn explained above (which I completely agree with, Fir) that TTF should not become a place where we can simply switch people off because I know I wouldn't be the only one affected and I truly believe TTF would suffer because of it - and that was the whole point of this thread in the first place.



Firawyn said:


> We were all "noobs", at one point.
> 
> I think it would do you well to remember that, Úlairi.


 
More than you realize, Fir. Read my comments about Cían here.



Big Blue said:


> Noob. What does that actually mean? Someone who is new to Tolkien; or someone who has read Tolkien’s work for say, thirty years, but is new to the forum? Anyway, I think it’s ironic that Barley was concerned his _"Decline of the Tolkien Forum"_ thread would die out with a thud many moons ago; yet it was so huge it actually spawned a satellite thread that is presently on fire. Maybe the Innkeeper should not be too hasty when selling out to Dunkin' Donuts .


 
Shut up, noob. 

No, I would say a _noob _is someone new to the works of Tolkien. 

Yeah, actually this thread derived from Aulë's idea of who would be Durin VII in the _Moria reference_. However people have stopped posting their Durin VII's all of a sudden...

*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


----------



## Firawyn

"Noob" is a leetspeak thing Illuin. See here.

I actually did an English paper on leetspeak a few years ago. Learned alot. 


When I said we were all noobs at one point, I meant it in both contexts. Both new to Tolkien, and/or new to The Tolkien Forum. When entering into either of those realms for the first times...it can be very intimidating.


----------



## Illuin

Haha. For me, being new to the forum world in general (missed that cusp by a few years), it was learning internet lingo... words like _"noob"._ The only things I was aware of were LOL and WTF .


----------



## Firawyn

It's pretty easy to get, once you understand the concept. Helps with text messaging.

"nvr du tdy wut u cn do tmro"


----------



## Illuin

Is that authentic internet shorthand?


----------



## Walter

Illuin said:


> Is that authentic internet shorthand?



No, a keyboard defect...


----------



## Firawyn

LOL careful there men. Don't forget who was brought up in the computer age, in this conversation!

When you were my age...


----------



## Illuin

> _When you were my age... _


 
Still on a quest for fire.


----------



## Durin's Bane

Firawyn said:


> When I said we were all noobs at one point, I meant it in both contexts. Both new to Tolkien, and/or new to The Tolkien Forum. When entering into either of those realms for the first times...it can be very intimidating.


You mean newb (or newbie) not noob. Newb is someone new, doesn't know much and makes mistakes. Noob is someone who has been around for a while claims to know stuff yet still makes the same mistakes as a newb. Newb is not offensive where noob is. 
Such a common mistake coming from a person who has done a paper on 1337?


----------



## Firawyn

Durin's Bane said:


> You mean newb (or newbie) not noob. Newb is someone new, doesn't know much and makes mistakes. Noob is someone who has been around for a while claims to know stuff yet still makes the same mistakes as a newb. Newb is not offensive where noob is.
> Such a common mistake coming from a person who has done a paper on 1337?



1337 = Leet...I did the paper several years ago. And i have packed my head with more useless information since then!  

However, I stand corrected.

@ Illuin, 

Quest for fire! Ha! Had you even developed a brain under that thick cromagnum skull yet?


----------



## Úlairi

Yeah, me too. 

I'm starting to feel like a newbie noob these days with all the bloody forum antics...

*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


----------



## Úlairi

And perhaps we're seeing TTF on yet another decline.

Things of significant note however are the wondrous returns of Ancalagon and Walter. With both of them at the helm of TTF, perhaps Khazad-dûm can be restored from the desolation of Moria. Do not leave us to fire and torment of the Balrog of inactivity! It must be slain...

*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


----------



## Úlairi

Wow, it seems as though TTF is on sabbatical!

*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


----------



## Firawyn

Alot of those of us who are really active on TTF were teenagers when we joined, and now we're adults. We're just busy trying to figure life out!


----------



## Elbereth

Just wanted to pop in to say that I am not "LOST"...just busy with my life and career. 

I would comment about all that was said...but that would take too long and my time recently is limited and precious so I will refraim from commenting on statements long passed. 

I will say however that I do not see this website as declining. It is merely moving at a much slower pace than what we remember when it was in a feverish pitch during the movies. Those of us who were posting frequently then and have now stopped have moved on to new stories and new life experiences and have little time or energy to debate and discuss topics. I for one do not have any new insights into Tolkien's work at the moment and therefore will not try to participate in threads for the sake of participating. I'm sure in time I will pick up the books again and will have new insight that I didn't have in my twenties...until then I will remain out of those threads. I hope no one minds.


----------



## Firawyn

I doubt TTF is going anywhere, Elbereth.


----------



## Úlairi

Firawyn said:


> I doubt TTF is going anywhere, Elbereth.


 
Yeah, but my threads may though.

*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


----------



## Firawyn

Úlairi said:


> Yeah, but my threads may though.
> 
> *Cheers,*
> 
> *Úlairi.*



Yea and TTF will go on without them. We've all had threads merged or deleted at one point or another. Especially if you were involved in MERPG.


----------



## Aulë

WHAT??????
The MERPG posts were deleted?????

Now that's an outrage. I spent days upon days writing things on that site!


----------



## Úlairi

Firawyn said:


> Yea and TTF will go on without them. We've all had threads merged or deleted at one point or another. Especially if you were involved in MERPG.


 
What? All of them? I doubt that, Fir...

*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


----------



## chrysophalax

I haven't been able to access anything from the old MERPG after a certain point and I did (if I may say so) some of my best work over there. Such is the way of things however and we just have to suck it up.


----------



## Firawyn

Yeah I know, I agree Aule. Apparently, MERPG was "archived"...however I don't know what they archived because I can't find much of what I did over there!


----------



## Úlairi

I'm finding the archive format quite frustrating to peruse through. Anyone else having problems with it?

*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


----------



## Ithrynluin

What exactly do you find frustrating about it? Looks very straightforward and systematic to me.


----------



## Úlairi

The contrast of the text and the background through the colour scheme. It's readable, personally however, I think there are just better colour combinations. I suppose white backgrounds take up significantly less space and that's the purpose behind archiving... 

*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


----------



## Ithrynluin

For every thread you want to look at, you can choose to view the full version and therefore have the green background.


----------



## Úlairi

Excellent, problem solved.


I've done a little mathematical analysis on my threads in general and have noticed an interesting trend. I contribute approximately one-third of all the posts in my threads... which means three possible conclusions:


I have far too much time on my hands. This was previously true but now that I'm back at Uni and have started a new job that's unlikely. It means however, that I'm wasting valuable time.
TTF is most definitely declining.
I talk too much.
Maybe it's time to move on to other things... TTF just ain't the vibrant, beautiful haven it once was... Ah well, could be worse, right? 

*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


----------



## Prince of Cats

I would say that your negative comments are causing more problem than they could heal - but that would be rubbish. For through your negative posting we've increased the post count by 2, your post and my rebuttal!

So umm, keep saying bad stuff at least we are saying something?


----------



## Firawyn

Úlairi said:


> Excellent, problem solved.
> 
> 
> I've done a little mathematical analysis on my threads in general and have noticed an interesting trend. I contribute approximately one-third of all the posts in my threads... which means three possible conclusions:
> 
> 
> I have far too much time on my hands. This was previously true but now that I'm back at Uni and have started a new job that's unlikely. It means however, that I'm wasting valuable time.
> TTF is most definitely declining.
> I talk too much.
> Maybe it's time to move on to other things... TTF just ain't the vibrant, beautiful haven it once was... Ah well, could be worse, right?
> 
> *Cheers,*
> 
> *Úlairi.*




1. You DO have way too much time on your hands.
2. That is a matter of opinion.
3. Um...I'm not going to disagree on that point. 


@ Prince, 



> I would say that your negative comments are causing more problem than they could heal



I am trying to behave here...but...I AGREE!


----------



## Úlairi

Both of you can bite me...  

How's that for negative? 

Now that we've been posting redundant statements the post count of this thread has reached 100! Rarely see that these days! Now, there's a positive comment! 

*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


----------



## Firawyn

Hehe, careful there Úlairi. I grew up in a house that took the words "bite me" quite seriously. I have scars to prove it!


----------



## Ancalagon

That's rather worrying Firawyn

Anyhoo, I feel like a complete noob now tbh. I am sure most of those who posted regularly and left for whatever reason feel the same. Nice to see you Elbereth btw Long time no speaky

I was thinking, the best questions I was ever asked on this forum were by people who knew perty much nuthin about Tolkien but after their first read thought of something: 'The Way is Shut Guy' and 'Can the Ring Think' were great, momentus debates asked by people who by their own admission knew bugger all about Tolkien, just goes to show you really!


----------



## Firawyn

Ancalagon said:


> That's rather worrying Firawyn



Yeah well, get to know me a bit and you'll learn I had a rather...I'm going to go with the word "insane", childhood.  But, I'm trying to get past that and not slip into the "decline" that was my homelife.


----------



## HLGStrider

Fir said:


> I grew up in a house that took the words "bite me" quite seriously.





Anc said:


> That's rather worrying Firawyn


 
Personally, I will only find it worrying if she also admits to reading the Twillight series. Otherwise, it's just Fir.


----------



## Starflower

I seem to remember this same debate raging on before, we've never actually reached any kind of a resolution that would be acceptable to everyone. 
In response to you, dear Úlairi, I'm sure you have heard the saying 'It's not the quantity, but the quality that matters'? We may have less posts and less 'old' members posting daily than we used to, but the quality of fare served here is still very high. 
Why is it so important to you that people who were very active when you started should come back and keep this forum alive? Shouldn't we rather thank them of their contributions so far and let them enjoy some well-deserved rest from the fray? Let the new kids have their say as well, as has been pointed out earlier in the thread, many are afraid to post for fear of being ridiculed. 
Now, I was reading The Hobbit when you were not yet even born, and started on LoTR about the time you learned to talk, dear boy - but I cannot honestly say that I have more than scratched the surface of this amazing world Tolkien created. I wander around the forum and post stuff because I feel I have something to discuss, but not everybody feels the same way. And we should respect that, let's remember that we all have _*real*_ lives to contend with too.


----------



## Firawyn

Hehe, well I'm not into _Twilight _so I guess it's just me!


----------



## Úlairi

Wow! Life really does get in the way of this place, doesn't it?

*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


----------



## Daranavo

HLGStrider said:


> Personally, I will only find it worrying if she also admits to reading the Twillight series. Otherwise, it's just Fir.



Oh I know of this series. It is...really really bad. I do not like this new care bear Vampire that exists in that series.


----------



## Firawyn

See, I have good taste. ICK for _Twilight. _Very ick.


----------



## Úlairi

Starflower said:


> I seem to remember this same debate raging on before, we've never actually reached any kind of a resolution that would be acceptable to everyone.


 
Well, oft that's just life, ain't it?



Starflower said:


> In response to you, dear Úlairi, I'm sure you have heard the saying 'It's not the quantity, but the quality that matters'? We may have less posts and less 'old' members posting daily than we used to, but the quality of fare served here is still very high.


 
I personally find that saying to be ultimately futile. The greater the quantity of posters on this forum; the greater the quality. It's just the laws of probability, dear Starflower. I was not arguing for an increase in quantity however, but directly the opposite. It is of no import to me whatsoever if we see the exodus of newbs to the fora; as long as we retain those who have been responsible for embellishing the halls of this forum. This was once (and hopefully will be again) an oasis and I find no issue with voicing the opinion that this place is far more proficient with them than without them.



Starflower said:


> Why is it so important to you that people who were very active when you started should come back and keep this forum alive?


 
Because those are the people that I have learnt a great many things from; and as such I hold them in the highest of high regards, and respect them. The acquisition of wisdom is far greater than that of knowledge. Discussing aspects of that which I find to be one of the most magnificent pieces of literature perpetuates a deeper understanding of not just the knowledge of the text but often revelatory comprehension and wisdom that I can apply in my own personal life. I have virtually never found this from "quantity posters". 



Starflower said:


> Shouldn't we rather thank them of their contributions so far and let them enjoy some well-deserved rest from the fray?


 
This is a place of rest and thus they can rest here. I'll thank them when they come back...



Starflower said:


> Let the new kids have their say as well, as has been pointed out earlier in the thread, many are afraid to post for fear of being ridiculed.


 
And I see no need to reiterate my position on that matter again. I know many wish to point the finger at me in this respect for making them feel unwelcome but since my return the problems I've encountered have not been with anyone new to the forum. I have in fact welcomed some of them. Just ask Itnjmy.



Starflower said:


> Now, I was reading The Hobbit when you were not yet even born, and started on LoTR about the time you learned to talk, dear boy - but I cannot honestly say that I have more than scratched the surface of this amazing world Tolkien created. I wander around the forum and post stuff because I feel I have something to discuss, but not everybody feels the same way. And we should respect that, let's remember that we all have _*real*_ lives to contend with too.


 
Sorry Starflower, but the "_real-life_" argument is getting a little tedious for me. I lead a real life as everyone else and I often resent reading hundreds of pages of law to ascertain a very limited range of _ratio decidenda_. When I'm at work the sheer mundanity of it inexorably leads me here where I feel the happiness of contributing in a way that is far more meaningful to me than writing a thesis as to why a 400 year old case has such an important impact on the law and jurisdiction of equity or what staff members populate a particular corporation. Just doin' what makes me feel happy. The true shame perhaps is that these people have left because they no longer feel a passion for the works of JRRT - but that is their choice and I much prefer that as a reason not to participate than just life getting in the damn way. I know I hate it when it forces my hand. As for how, when and where you've read the works of Tolkien I fail to see the relevance other than the fact that as my elder you deserve respect and if you have any wisdom to impart through the quality of your posts I'd be more than happy to listen.

*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


----------



## ltnjmy

I am *very grateful* to  Firawyn, RangerStryder & Ulari for making me feel very welcome.

My first posting was an inadvertent mistake - to a thread another newbie had started and one poster did make me feeling uncomfortable about that error - but other than that - I have felt very welcome here. 

((In my opinion - many of the posters on http://www.theonering.com are not as nice and open as those here. Many are somewhat pompous and rarely carry on conversations regarding Professor Tolkien's masterpieces.))


----------



## Úlairi

Well, I guess there's at least one new person to the forum that does not feel intimidated. 

*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


----------



## Voronwen

Úlairi said:


> Well, I guess there's at least one new person to the forum that does not feel intimidated.


 
_Make that two of us._ And i'd like to thank Firawyn, Chrysophalax, Prince of Cats, and of course Varokhâr (without whom i never would have come here in the first place) for making me feel welcome.  

But i would also like to mention that not everyone who comes through here is going to be _one extreme_ or _the other_. Just because a poster is not a literary-analyst/thesis-writing/debating scholarly type does not mean that they are automatically the shallow-minded/pop-culture-infatuated/lowest-common-denominator of the fandom, either. And vice versa. There are _many_ shades in between. 

As others have already mentioned, some of us are here simply to connect with others who also _love_ the world that Tolkien created. We are here to commune with kindred spirits - not for a contest of wits, but to enjoy with others something that we _mutually love_. Perhaps to some that may sound overly simple and emotional, and i fully admit to being an idealist and a romantic by nature (and i don't think there's anything wrong with that ), but there is _no right or wrong way_ to _love_ something. If some enjoy that love through scholarly debate, then that's fine (for them). Others enjoy it through RPG, lighthearted discussions, fanfic writing, etc, and that too is fine. Isn't this why there are so many different sections on this forum? There is room for all of us. Ideally everyone has their niche and, as long as all involved are putting care and thought behind what they contribute, and are as true to and respecting of the canon as it deserves us to be, i see no problems with either form of expression, nor do i see one as _greater than_ or _less than_ the other. 

I have already enjoyed being here, and, while i admit that my heart _sank_ while i was reading some of these posts (as i don't believe _any_ of us, regardless of which niche we belong to, should allow arrogance to mar the experience in any way), i still look forward to continuing my stay.


----------



## Úlairi

Voronwen said:


> We are here to commune with kindred spirits - not for a contest of wits, but to enjoy with others something that we _mutually love_.


 


Voronwen said:


> If some enjoy that love through scholarly debate, then that's fine (for them).


 
_Commune _with kindred spirits? 

Your attempt to remain pacifistically objective unfortunately missed the mark. There are those, such as myself, that enjoy nothing more than a contest of wits; even when they lose. It is often my lifeblood in which I draw sustenance from this place. 



Voronwen said:


> There is room for all of us.


 
I know that the reference to arrogant posting was possibly in reference to myself but if you're going to insinuate that I claimed that there wasn't room for us all then kindly point out where I said that so that I may remedy it. I have no recollection of even making the slightest remark purporting such an idea.



Voronwen said:


> I have already enjoyed being here, and, while i admit that my heart _sank_ while i was reading some of these posts (as i don't believe _any_ of us, regardless of which niche we belong to, should allow arrogance to mar the experience in any way), i still look forward to continuing my stay.


 
And I shall continue to remain indifferent until the quality of posting on this board is in accordance with the standard that compels me to participate. This is, of course, what all of us do whether we consider ourselves to be higher and mightier or not.

*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


----------



## Firawyn

Well goodness. I guess should be on a the TTF Welcoming Committee.  Thanks guys. 

Now onward. 



> Because those are the people that I have learnt a great many things from; and as such I hold them in the highest of high regards, and respect them. The acquisition of wisdom is far greater than that of knowledge. Discussing aspects of that which I find to be one of the most magnificent pieces of literature perpetuates a deeper understanding of not just the knowledge of the text but often revelatory comprehension and wisdom that I can apply in my own personal life. I have virtually never found this from "quantity posters".



Ulairi, dear, if I didn't know any better, I'd say that you _miss_ some of these people. Interesting. 




> But i would also like to mention that not everyone who comes through here is going to be _one extreme_ or _the other_. Just because a poster is not a literary-analyst/thesis-writing/debating scholarly type does not mean that they are automatically the shallow-minded/pop-culture-infatuated/lowest-common-denominator of the fandom, either. And vice versa. There are _many_ shades in between.



I agree completely with this.



> Your attempt to remain pacifistically objective unfortunately missed the mark. There are those, such as myself, that enjoy nothing more than a contest of wits; even when they lose. It is often my lifeblood in which I draw sustenance from this place.



True, Ulairi, but just because you like it that way does not mean it is the ONLY way to be. And you would certainly have no grounds to say (not saying that you have said) that your way is the best way. Life is not about proving you are the best. Everyone has strengths, and everyone has weaknesses. That why we need relationships - so that we can pull others up in thier weaknesses, and so that they can pull us up in ours. It's a delicate balance that is extreamly good for us, as human beings. 

And by the way, please get off Starflower about pointing out the facts of real life, because like it or not, you do exist outside of cyberspace, as do the rest of us, and real life is a valid point in any discussion.


----------



## Voronwen

I am not about to argue with you, Úlairi, and i apologize if you felt in any way singled out by my post, as that was not my intent. I learned years ago that arguing and getting upset over posts on an internet forum was not good for my (or anyone's) health. I hope one day you find the experience you seek. Until then, i hope that you and i can at the very least enjoy a peaceable acquaintance. 



Firawyn said:


> Life is not about proving you are the best. Everyone has strengths, and everyone has weaknesses. That why we need relationships - so that we can pull others up in thier weaknesses, and so that they can pull us up in ours. It's a delicate balance that is extreamly good for us, as human beings.


 
That was beautifully said, Firawyn, and i cannot agree more.


----------



## Úlairi

Firawyn said:


> Ulairi, dear, if I didn't know any better, I'd say that you _miss_ some of these people. Interesting.


 
Your perceptiveness is astounding as always Fir.  



Firawyn said:


> True, Ulairi, but just because you like it that way does not mean it is the ONLY way to be.


 
And again I never purported this concept. It's simply a matter of personal taste. I am not, nor have I ever forced upon anyone on this board where, how and when they should post. To even believe that I have such power is profoundly egotistical. Do you all think that I'm just some egomaniacal megalomaniac who wishes to establish an esoterically intellectual oligarchy? WM can flick me off this board with his little finger if he so wishes. I have no delusions of grandeur; I simply expressing the opinion that I consider this place to be far more rewarding and worthwhile when it is populated by people who have great wisdom which they apply to the knowledge derived from the works of Tolkien. It is The *Tolkien* Forum, after all... although it sure as hell doesn't feel like it anymore (and this may be why Alcuin is no longer present ). Other than that I'm just a simple-minded plebian.



Firawyn said:


> And you would certainly have no grounds to say (not saying that you have said) that your way is the best way.


 
Thanks Captain Obvious.  I am of the opinion that my way is the best way only because it is how I feel about the particular matter. My personal view, a contention, an ideal, a belief inimated etc... I will not concede however, from the position that this forum is better populated by n*oo*bs unless from n*ew*bs (and I used the different variation here for obvious reasons) we see the development of a particular few that can generate brilliant discussion. Quality arises from quantity and quantity from quality. A self-perpetuating cycle. We can get certain random brilliant threads from time to time like _Finding God in The Lord of the Rings _from newbs but those discussions are maintained and much more deeply explored by more adept minds. 



Firawyn said:


> Life is not about proving you are the best.


 
Well, it is a fundamental tenet of capitalism upon which the financial aspects of our lives are founded upon, but I agree with you nonetheless. There is no point _preaching _to me here on this point as I have not made this contention previously, and more to the point I agree with this wholeheartedly. If I have an opinion I feel strongly about I will simply defend it to the best of my ability. If I come out the victor in the end then all I have been is successful in my endeavour to defend that belief, nothing more, nothing less.



Firawyn said:


> Everyone has strengths, and everyone has weaknesses. That why we need relationships - so that we can pull others up in thier weaknesses, and so that they can pull us up in ours. It's a delicate balance that is extreamly good for us, as human beings.


 
I have no weaknesses... 

_I'm invincible!_
_You're a looney._





Firawyn said:


> And by the way, please get off Starflower about pointing out the facts of real life, because like it or not, you do exist outside of cyberspace, as do the rest of us, and real life is a valid point in any discussion.


 
I don't need the facts of life pointed out to me when I come here to get away from them, it simply defeats the entire purpose of coming on here in the first place. Real life is certainly a valid point as I can't make a point without having one. I just simply get bored of having the same point reiterated to me as I don't listen to broken records.



Voronwen said:


> I am not about to argue with you, Úlairi, and i apologize if you felt in any way singled out by my post, as that was not my intent.


 
I wasn't spoiling for a fight Voronwen. I don't understand why everyone on this board contorts into a twisted ball everytime someone expresses an opinion contrary to the accepted norm or majority view. You have an opinion on the matter and so do I. We can leave it at that. I have no plans to pursue it further as not only has this argument become stale... it just goes around in circles. It may not have been your intent Voronwen to single me out but the placement in relation to threads made it quite obvious. You can call me arrogant, I have absolutely no problem with this whatsoever. "There's nothing you can't throw at me that I haven't already heard." If you call me arrogant a need will arise to defend myself and I will do so. Once I have done so I will leave it at that. What I am saying and I have repeatedly said to this forum is that I will not instigate personal attacks from now on. The first bullet fired will not come from my gun, but the second one most definitely will be.



Voronwen said:


> I learned years ago that arguing and getting upset over posts on an internet forum was not good for my (or anyone's) health. I hope one day you find the experience you seek. Until then, i hope that you and i can at the very least enjoy a peaceable acquaintance.


 
We can enjoy more than that Voronwen. I often find the people I have the greatest repoire with are the people I initially experience dissension with; just ask Fir and Illuin. Just because I avidly defend my position it does not mean that I have personal dislike for you; quite the opposite actually. Being a law student requires that I have to maintain a level of objectivity in any argument.

*Your "peaceable acquaintance",*

*Úlairi.*


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## Illuin

> Originally posted by *Úlairi*
> _It is The *Tolkien* Forum, after all... although it sure as hell doesn't feel like it anymore (and this may be why Alcuin is no longer present ). Other than that I'm just a simple-minded plebian._


 
I have a lot of free time in the summer , and I promise I'll make it up to you. I prefer the in-depth stuff myself, but right now my head is about to implode. I can't even remember if I have eaten lunch or dinner most of the time. Give me just a couple of months and we'll head back to the Eldanyárë and get busy again. I've been wondering about Alcuin myself lately. I guess a PM would be useless if he doesn't log on .


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## Úlairi

Illuin said:


> I have a lot of free time in the summer , and I promise I'll make it up to you. I prefer the in-depth stuff myself, but right now my head is about to implode. I can't even remember if I have eaten lunch or dinner most of the time. Give me just a couple of months and we'll head back to the Eldanyárë and get busy again. I've been wondering about Alcuin myself lately. I guess a PM would be useless if he doesn't log on .


 
I know what you mean mate. The law is becoming so burdensome I often find myself wondering why I'm even doing it in the first place! Try e-mailing him. He often responds to that.

*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


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## Firawyn

Ulairi, notice what I've changed my "subtitle" to. 

I'm in a rush though, but I will be back to post responses tomorrow. 

Happy Easter people!


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## Úlairi

LOL. Suits you. 

Yes, Happy Easter everyone!

*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


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## Thorin

Wow...reading this thread was like the old days: arguing and attacking! It makes me nostalgic.
Good to see Ancalagon back! Actually, it was great to see a bunch of you from 6 years and before hashing it out! (see original comment).

*Who are my Durin VII?*
*ReadWryt:* that wonderful, grumpy curmudgeon. I appreciated his wit and well versed arguments against the movies. I wish he'd come back.

*Greymantle:* We banded together many times in the early years against those who defended the movies at all costs.

*Mrs. Maggot:* Probably one of the most logical, rational and well spoken purists I've had the pleasure of joining up with.

*Harad, Markrob and Foe-Hammer:* The Morgoth,Sauron and Witch King of film adaptation defenders. With their grossly ignorant and insulting posts 90% of the time, getting more infractions and warnings than anybody else on this forum put together, how much fun we had shaking Arda in our battles.

I also have to agree with some of you about Cian. Cian was a Tolkien loremaster no doubt. Also on the forum waaaaay back before this forum in it's present state existed, there was a person named Delia. She could very well have been Cian for the amount of Tolkien knowledge she had.


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## Úlairi

Think I've found myself a _kindred spirit _here! Let's _commune_ Thorin! 

*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


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## Firawyn

Thorin said:


> *Mrs. Maggot:* Probably one of the most logical, rational and well spoken purists I've had the pleasure of joining up with.



Yeah, wonder we she went off to. Anyone know? 

Now back to my late reply: 



> That was beautifully said, Firawyn, and i cannot agree more.


Thank you kindly, Lady V. 


Now Ulairi, 



> Your perceptiveness is astounding as always Fir.



Yes, it's a gift.



> And again I never purported this concept. It's simply a matter of personal taste. I am not, nor have I ever forced upon anyone on this board where, how and when they should post.


Indeed this is the case. However, one would wonder as to why you are so bound and determined to voice your opinion so loudly. A whisper may change history, you know. 



> To even believe that I have such power is profoundly egotistical. Do you all think that I'm just some egomaniacal megalomaniac who wishes to establish an esoterically intellectual oligarchy?



Um, I think that it's best if I refrain from answering this, though I did want to point out that I read, and understood it. 



> I am of the opinion that my way is the best way only because it is how I feel about the particular matter. My personal view, a contention, an ideal, a belief inimated etc...



Yet you seem to bear contempt towards people who hold their own beliefs just as highly. One would think that if you want to be respected, and want your beliefs to be respected, that you would (can't resist the quote) "do unto others as you would have them do unto you."



> Quality arises from quantity and quantity from quality. A self-perpetuating cycle.



I disagree. Quality arises from people with a desire to be better than they are, and from those who want to learn more. Quantity arises from people who believe that they are more important to any given discussion that the subject being discusses. The only cycle in this is that by human nature, we each give some quality, and some quantity, and I'd call that more of a rhythm that a cycle. 



> We can get **certain random brilliant* threads from time to time like _Finding God in The Lord of the Rings _from newbs but those discussions are maintained and much more deeply explored by more adept minds.



I think that "more adept minds" is very condescending. Some people have simple minds, and others complex, but ironically it's often the simple minds (not simpleminded, just meaning minds that think in sentences rather than paragraphs), that will say the most profound things, and the complex minds will speak much, and say nothing at all. 

The problem with the forum several years old with the same basic members is that the discussions to be had, _have been had_. That's why we welcome new members with open arms, because those who were young and less knowledgeable a few years ago can now contribute to these threads you speak of in the way that their seniors contributed before. If you want to revive old topics with new members, you don't give the entire answer to the question they ask in *one post*. You suggest lines of thinking that will allow them to explore with their own minds - not write a post that they could copy and paste and call a term paper for their English Lit class. 

*Did you use enough adjectives in that sentence?



> I have no weaknesses...
> 
> _I'm invincible!_


Yeah, sure you are. 



> _You're a looney._


You have no idea just how true that is... *eyes glaze over* _Ohhh!!! Hi little voices in my head!_ _How's it going?_ 



> I don't need the facts of life pointed out to me when I come here to get away from them, it simply defeats the entire purpose of coming on here in the first place. Real life is certainly a valid point as I can't make a point without having one.


This place (or any place or thing) shouldn't be an escape. It's recreation of the mind. And in the mind, 'real life' still very much exists. 



> I just simply get bored of having the same point reiterated to me as I don't listen to broken records.


Well we're so, so sorry we're boring you, but if you would listen we wouldn't have to say it again. 



> I often find the people I have the greatest repoire with are the people I initially experience dissension with; just ask Fir and Illuin.


Yeah I about killed him the first week he was back here.  Now we get on _so_ much better.


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## Úlairi

Firawyn said:


> Yes, it's a gift.


 
Well, hold onto it, it's just about the only one you have. 



Firawyn said:


> Indeed this is the case. However, one would wonder as to why you are so bound and determined to voice your opinion so loudly. A whisper may change history, you know.


 
Yes, I wouldn't disagree with this. But exasperatingly no one can whisper on an internet board Fir...  



Firawyn said:


> Um, I think that it's best if I refrain from answering this, though I did want to point out that I read, and understood it.


 
Yeah, it's a crying shame you can't use this to launch a personal attack. I wouldn't have had a problem with it, but the _powers that be_ would be on it like a fat kid on a piece of cake. 



Firawyn said:


> Yet you seem to bear contempt towards people who hold their own beliefs just as highly. One would think that if you want to be respected, and want your beliefs to be respected, that you would (can't resist the quote) "do unto others as you would have them do unto you."


 
I never asked for any respect and any respect that I may gain on this forum, according to this whole _real life theory_, is completely devoid of any tangible substance anyway. Isn't it you that has continually stated that there is _real life _outside the forum walls? Logically the respect out there must also be real and thus the respect here must not be. Resultantly, whether I'm respected here or not is something that I can take or leave. The aphorism you've quoted applies directly to me as I generally expect people to vociferate their opinions as loudly as I do. If that were not the case, I would never have returned to TTF. I don't bear contempt for opinions that I disagree with usually, just apathy. If the opinion is quite cogent and poignant than I will not bear contempt for it at all, but rather that opinion will force a reconsideration of my own and as such I do respect those opinions - respect for people comes later.



Firawyn said:


> I disagree. Quality arises from people with a desire to be better than they are, and from those who want to learn more. Quantity arises from people who believe that they are more important to any given discussion that the subject being discusses. The only cycle in this is that by human nature, we each give some quality, and some quantity, and I'd call that more of a rhythm that a cycle.


 
I'm going to have to explain this, aren't I? Every person that resides within this forum brings their own inherent quality (shocking ). Thus with a greater quantity of people here there must be more inherent quality. As the level of quality increases more people will be drawn to a place where the quality is of such a high standard thus increasing the quantity. Simple really. Your statements about quality are quite puissant and I couldn't agree more. If you'd read a few posts back of mine this is exactly what I had said about quality on this board. So I'm to understand that Úlairi = quantity, right? *sigh* I guess there's really no point of even bothering anymore. One cannot continually stand alone in the face of such opposition. I may as well just stop posting here as it's not really even the same _Tolkien Forum_ that it used to be, even Big Blue acknowledges this point. 



Firawyn said:


> I think that "more adept minds" is very condescending. Some people have simple minds, and others complex, but ironically it's often the simple minds (not simpleminded, just meaning minds that think in sentences rather than paragraphs), that will say the most profound things, and the complex minds will speak much, and say nothing at all.


 
I completely and wholeheartedly agree with that, Fir. *everyone gasps*

However we are definitionally in dissent with one another with regard to the word _adept_. Simple minds can still be quite "adept". But I'm kinda drunk right now so I don't even know why I'm actually posting. I know I'm just fulla sh*t, right?



Firawyn said:


> The problem with the forum several years old with the same basic members is that the discussions to be had, _have been had_. That's why we welcome new members with open arms, because those who were young and less knowledgeable a few years ago can now contribute to these threads you speak of in the way that their seniors contributed before. If you want to revive old topics with new members, you don't give the entire answer to the question they ask in *one post*. You suggest lines of thinking that will allow them to explore with their own minds - not write a post that they could copy and paste and call a term paper for their English Lit class.


 
Must we go through this... again?!?! What did I say about repitition? This just keeps going on and the sound of smashing cymbals is just getting deafening... sorry Fir.



Firawyn said:


> You have no idea just how true that is... *eyes glaze over* _Ohhh!!! Hi little voices in my head!_ _How's it going?_


 
Actually, that was a quote from _Monty Python and the Holy Grail_ where King Arthur does battle with the Black Knight. Guess I'm as "normal" as everyone else here, Fir.



Firawyn said:


> This place (or any place or thing) shouldn't be an escape. It's recreation of the mind. And in the mind, 'real life' still very much exists.


 
Well with all the "issues" of real life that you and I have discussed previously Fir, I'm sure you of all people understand why this place is an _escape_ for me. I'm sorry that I'm just not up to the standard of everyone else on the board whose _real-lives_ are so wonderful that this place is just simply their minds' playground.



Firawyn said:


> Well we're so, so sorry we're boring you, but if you would listen we wouldn't have to say it again.


 
Actually, I think it is I who am boring you by the looks of things. Maybe we do need newbs around here. I've always enjoyed hunting.  Just jokes, people, just jokes!



Firawyn said:


> Yeah I about killed him the first week he was back here.  Now we get on _so_ much better.


 
No, you attacked me and I was the one that was eventually penalized by the double-standards rife within this forum. You didn't even come close to killing me. The posts are still there if you want to have a look. 

**yawn*,*

*Úlairi.*


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## Úlairi

I think I'll take my leave of TTF for a while. The place has become... unprofitable. It's also beginning to consume a little too much of my time again.

*Adios Amigos!*

*Úlairi.*


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## HLGStrider

In that case, I consider this thread pretty much moot (in the sense of "without significance," rather than in the Entmoot definition) since it has indeed strayed far from any purpose other than debating each other's methods and personalities. If anyone sees any useful posts in this thread which could start profitable discussions elsewhere, let me know and I'll split them out of thread and start a new one. Until then, this thread is closed.


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