# Did Tolkien invent Orcs?



## HLGStrider (Apr 18, 2007)

All right, I feel almost stupid for asking this, but I was actually pouring through my websters today to find out if Orc is a word in the dictionary, and it isn't. The reason for this is because it has frustrated me to no end when I see Orcs in other works of fiction than Tolkien and I wanted to see if he had made up the idea which had been stolen or if it was an actual mythological creature he simply popularized.

I hate to admit this but I have been playing World of Warcraft (cowers in shame) for the last three months or so, and this is what brought it up. They stole Orcs. And rewrote them a bit.

Does anyone know when the Goblins in the Hobbit became "orcs" and where the word orc itself came from?

Is it a pure invention (like Hobbits) or something borrowed from mythology and retooled for his myths (Dwarves, elves).


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## Maeglin (Apr 18, 2007)

First of all, shame on you Elgee for playing that abhorred game. 

Secondly...I love Wikipedia. Tells me all kinds of fun things, such as the origin of the word "orc," which incidentally is a word according to dictionary.com. But anyway, here's the stuff from wikipedia:



> Etymology of the word "orc"
> 
> The modern use of the English word "orc" to denote a race of evil, humanoid creatures begins with J.R.R. Tolkien.
> 
> ...



There's lots more on there, but I just copied some of the relevant stuff.

Right then....it looks like it has some very old roots, but was popularized by Tolkien. Hope that answers the question.


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## Starbrow (May 11, 2007)

Tolkien may have come up with orc from old languages, but everyone else took it from him


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## Walter (May 12, 2007)

Tolkien surely did not invent them from scratch:

http://www.tolkienwiki.org/wiki.cgi?Orcs
http://www.tolkienwiki.org/wiki.cgi?Mythology/Orcs

Maybe also of interest:
http://www.tolkienwiki.org/wiki.cgi?The__Origin__of__Orcs


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## Turgon (May 14, 2007)

I think Starbrow has a good point, regardless of the origin of the orc, modern RPGs and fantasy owe their particular brand of orcs to Tolkien, and their elves and halflings and such and such. I always thought it was strange, and somewhat cool, that J.K. Rowling bucked the trend with her 'house-elves' making them as different from Tolkien's elves as possible.


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## Barliman Butterbur (May 14, 2007)

HLGStrider said:


> All right, I feel almost stupid for asking this, but I was actually pouring through my websters today to find out if Orc is a word in the dictionary, and it isn't. The reason for this is because it has frustrated me to no end when I see Orcs in other works of fiction than Tolkien and I wanted to see if he had made up the idea which had been stolen or if it was an actual mythological creature he simply popularized.
> 
> I hate to admit this but I have been playing World of Warcraft (cowers in shame) for the last three months or so, and this is what brought it up. They stole Orcs. And rewrote them a bit.
> 
> ...



From the _New Oxford American Dictionary:_

orc |ôrk| noun (in fantasy literature and games) a member of an imaginary race of humanlike creatures, characterized as ugly, warlike, and malevolent. ORIGIN late 16th cent.(denoting an ogre): perhaps from Latin orcus ‘hell’ or Italian orco ‘demon, monster,’ influenced by obsolete orc [ferocious sea creature] and by Old English orcneas [monsters.] The current sense is due to the use of the word in Tolkien's fantasy adventures.

===================

From the Google Dictionary:

Orc (sometimes spelled Ork) comes from the Latin word Orcus, a title of the god Pluto, the king of the underworld. It was later used to refer to the underworld itself. The word appears later in the germanic languages without its Latin ending, in the more familiar form of "Orc". It was then revived by J. R. R. Tolkien in his fictional stories of Middle-earth as the name of a race of creatures that are often used by evil forces as soldiers. 

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc
Orcs are one of the races in the Warcraft Universe — a fictional universe where a set of games and books are set. 
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_(Warcraft)

Orcs are one of the races of Games Workshop's Warhammer Fantasy fictional universe. For general information on the origin of the word "Orc" and Orcs in other fantasy worlds, see: Orc. 
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_(Warhammer)

Orc or Ork, an Old English word (orc-néas 'orc-corpses' in Beowulf) for the zombie-like monsters of Grendel's race was revived by J. R. R. Tolkien in his Middle-earth legendarium. For the origin of the word and its usage in other fantasy works, see: Orc. 
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_(Middle-earth)

Orc (a proper name) is one of the characters in the complex mythology of William Blake. Unlike the medieval sea beast, or Tolkien's humanoid monster, his Orc is a positive figure, the embodiment of creative passion and energy, and stands opposed to Urizen, the embodiment of reason. Orc is described by Blake as 'Lover of Wild Rebellion, and transgressor of God's Law'. He symbolizes the spirit of rebellion and freedom, which provoked the French Revolution and American War of Independence. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_(William_Blake)

Orc in Blake embodies revolutionary energy, an aspect of Luvah or passion. The so-called "Orc Cycle" in which rebel and tyrant eternally trade places is not really Blakean. Outside of Blake an orca or orc is a killer whale or, on land, a humanoid monster.
www.blakearchive.org.uk/glossary.html

============================

Barley


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## Elthir (Jan 2, 2008)

'They are not based on direct experience of mine; but owe, I suppose, a good deal to the goblin tradition ... especially as it appears in George MacDonald, except for the soft feet which I never believed in.' JRRT, Letters




Some description about goblins from George MacDonald, if anyone's interested...'Now in these subterranean caverns lived a strange race of beings, called by some gnomes, by some kobolds, by some goblins. There was a legend current in the country that at one time they lived above ground, and were very like other people. But for some reason or other, concerning which there were different legendary theories, the King had laid what they thought too severe taxes upon them, or had required observances of them they did not like, or had begun to treat them with more severity, in some way or other, and impose stricter laws; and the consequence was that they had all disappeared from the face of the country. According to the legend however, instead of going to some other country, they had all taken refuge in the subterranean caverns, whence they never came out but at night, and then seldom showed themselves in any numbers, and never to many people at once. It was only in the least frequented and most difficult parts of the mountains that they were said to gather even at night in the open air. Those who had caught sight of any of them said that they had greatly altered in the course of generations; and no wonder, seeing they lived away from the sun, in cold and wet and dark places. They were now, not ordinarily ugly, but either absolutely hideous, or ludicrously grotesque both in face and form. There was no invention, they said, of the most lawless imagination expressed by pen or pencil, that could surpass the extravagance of their appearance. But I suspect those who said so had mistaken some of their animal companions for the goblins themselves -- of which more by and by. The goblins themselves were not so far removed from the human as such a description would imply. And as they grew misshapen in body they had grown in knowledge and cleverness, and now were able to do things no mortal could see the possibility of. But as they grew in cunning, they grew in mischief, and their great delight was in every way they could think of to annoy the people who lived in the open-air storey above them. They had enough of affection left for each other to preserve them from being absolutely cruel for cruelty's sake to those that came in their way; but still they so heartily cherished the ancestral grudge against those who occupied their former possessions, and especially against the descendants of the king who had caused their expulsion, that they sought every opportunity of tormenting them in ways that were as odd as their inventors; and although dwarfed and mishapen, they had strength equal to their cunning. In the process of time they had got a king and a government of their own, whose chief business, beyond their own simple affairs, was to devise trouble for their neighbours. It will now be pretty evident why the little princess had never seen the sky at night. They were much too afraid of the goblins to let her out of the house then, even in company with ever so many attendants; and they had good reason, as we shall see by and by.' _Why The Princess Has A Story_ The Princess and the Goblin, George MacDonald​
The feet of these goblins appears to be their weak point (the toeless goblin feet). According to some goblin conversation...'Well, to be honest, it is a goblin's weakness. Why _they_ come so soft, I declare I haven't an idea'.​'Specially when your head's so hard, you know father'​'Yes my boy. The goblin's glory is his head. To think how the fellows up above there have to put on helmets and things when they go fighting! Ha! Ha!' The Goblins​On 'goblin-heads'...​'For, while each knight was busy defending himself as well as he could, by stabs in the thick bodies of the goblins, for he had soon found their heads all but invulnerable, the queen...' The Goblins In The King's House​Other possible tales about goblins aside, about 'goblin-heads' in any case, I note that the Great Goblin in _The Hobbit_ was a tremendous goblin with a huge head, and (_The Return of the King_) Azog was described as a great Orc with a huge iron-clad head.


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## Sidhe (Mar 6, 2008)

I have a 49th level Captain in LoTRO, don't play him at the moment, bit strapped for cash. Do I get a prize? 

Seems like the OP's question is covered, but I suppose one of the more semantic differences is only really in the terminology, like most words one is an older name for another, in LoTR at least where it seems goblin is the au fait term. One thing I love about Tolkiens world is that even language has a story and a history of use.


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## Elthir (Mar 6, 2008)

> ... but I suppose one of the more semantic differences is only really in the terminology, like most words one is an older name for another, in LoTR at least where it seems goblin is the au fait term.


 
Not sure I follow this exactly.

In both _The Hobbit_ and _The Lord of the Rings_ 'goblin' is the English translation sometimes used by the modern translator.

Or is that what you meant anyway


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## Sidhe (Mar 7, 2008)

Galin said:


> Not sure I follow this exactly.
> 
> In both _The Hobbit_ and _The Lord of the Rings_ 'goblin' is the English translation sometimes used by the modern translator.
> 
> Or is that what you meant anyway



No I mean that, the more commonly used word is Goblins anyway, by hobbits, and the common folk. Where as orc seems to be used by elves or Dunedain mainly.


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## Elthir (Mar 7, 2008)

Sidhe said:


> No I mean that, the more commonly used word is Goblins anyway, by hobbits, and the common folk. Where as orc seems to be used by elves or Dunedain mainly.


 
Oh, then I cannot agree ​ 
I would say rather that the Hobbits said orc. Not that you said so, but no one said 'goblin' back in Frodo's day (as no one spoke English of course). It's a translation, similar to 'Elves' being used to translate _Quendi,_ for example.​ 
And 'goblin' has been used in translation for orc (although it could be used to translate Sindarin _orch_ too).​ 
'(2) Orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds). Orc is the hobbits' form of the name given at that time to these creatures, and it is not connected at all with our orc, ork, applied to sea-animals of dolphin-kind.'​ 
JRRT The Hobbit ​


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## Sidhe (Mar 8, 2008)

See that's what I find odd, that goblins appears to be used far more often, in the books by hobbits an men alike, where as orc appears to be used more often outside of these races. As for a translation? I'm not sure where you are going with that, I am English, so I don't need a translation of any terms in the book, they are as they were written. If you mean Tolkien translated Orc into English as goblin, instead of Orc, for the benefit of his audience, then I see what you are saying and agree.

I didn't really mean to question its etymology only its usage within the book.


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## Elthir (Mar 8, 2008)

Sidhe said:


> See that's what I find odd, that goblins appears to be used far more often, in the books by hobbits an men alike, where as orc appears to be used more often outside of these races.


 
But I would ask what this is based on specifically? By my count (though I could easily have missed some) there are roughly about twelve instances of the word goblin in _The Lord of the Rings_, although it was usually employed in _The Hobbit._

Edit: I have found more instances recently, in _The Lord of the Rings._



> As for a translation? I'm not sure where you are going with that, I am English, so I don't need a translation of any terms in the book, they are as they were written. If you mean Tolkien translated Orc into English as goblin, instead of Orc, for the benefit of his audience, then I see what you are saying and agree.


 
Yes, it's like 'dog' for _hund_ if the source of the tale was German, for example. I don't know about Readers needing certain translations in the books, but that is the idea in any case, as JRRT is treating his history as originally written in languages no modern reader could understand. Nobody today would necessarily know what _Quendi_ or _Eldar_ means, or _Imladris_, or _kuduk,_ and in Tolkien's day, few people were going to know what an _Orc_ was just by the word. Note how the quote I posted above begins by saying _Orc_ is not an English word.

With respect to that last example _kuduk,_ even the translation had to be explained, because although a 'Hobbit' might be a well known being today, 'Hobbits' were new, of course, to everybody when JRRT's books were published. One could write _Orc_ and just describe the creature, and let the Reader draw his or her own conclusions, or modern comparisons, but JRRT had already used 'goblin' so often in _The Hobbit_ that it was already part of the translation process in any case, so to speak. Tolkien didn't really like 'Elves' as a translation, because of modern ideas or ideas that didn't fit well with his _Quendi_, but he stuck with it nonetheless.

Also, as _The Lord of the Rings_ is translated into other languages obviously, note Tolkien's instructions for those who were to translate his work into German or Italian (or whatever): 



> *Orc* 'This is supposed to be the Common Speech name of these creatures at that time; it should therefore according to the system be translated to English, or the language of translation. It was translated 'goblin' in The Hobbit, except in one place; but this word, and other words of similar sense in other European languages (as far as I know), are not really suitable. The orc in The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion, though of course partly made out of traditional features, is not really comparable in supposed origin, functions, and relation to the Elves. In any case orc seemed to me, and seems, in sound a good name for these creatures. It should be retained.'
> 
> From JRRT's _Guide to the Names in The Lord of the Rings_


 
So by this time, Tolkien prefers _hund_ over 'dog'; that is, he not only prefers _Orc_ but uses it a lot in _The Lord of the Rings_ (to put it another way, he often leaves the original word as it is, though not in every instance). _And_ he asks other translators to leave _Orc_ as is too (It should be retained).

It probably should be said that Tolkien landed on his 'translation ideas' for _The Lord of the Rings_ (see Appendix F), and the note I quoted above from _The Hobbit_ (explaining 'goblin' as a translation of _Orc_) was added by JRRT to later editions of _The Hobbit_.


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## Sidhe (Mar 8, 2008)

Ok this is obviously just a misapprehension I was labouring under, believing it was a more commonly used term, because orc had fallen out of favour. So I'll chalk that one up to me imagining meaning where there was none. And thanks for the information. 

Hehe, definitely came to the right place for those in the know.


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## Elthir (Mar 8, 2008)

Well, just my opinions in any case, and hopefully in line with JRRT. I usually put Tolkien's published stuff in prime position -- I mention that because on this question there's 'unpublished' stuff that can make matters more complex.

Anyway, the only reason I tried to count the instances of 'goblin' in _The Lord of the Rings_ is because someone challenged me on another forum.

I don't think I would have otherwise


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## Prince of Cats (Apr 9, 2008)

Galin said:


> It probably should be said that Tolkien landed on his 'translation ideas' for _The Lord of the Rings_ (see Appendix F), and the note I quoted above from _The Hobbit_ (explaining 'goblin' as a translation of _Orc_) was added by JRRT to later editions of _The Hobbit_.




Wow, I never thought that the goblins of the Hobbit were the same Orc creatures of the Lord of the Rings books!


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## Elthir (Apr 9, 2008)

Another text of note is _Of the Finding of the Ring_ in the Prologue to The Fellowship, where Bilbo's party from _The Hobbit_ 'was assailed by Orcs in a high pass of the Misty Mountains as they went towards Wilderland' It also notes that Bilbo was lost for a while in the black 'orc-mines' deep under the mountains. So these 'goblins' in general, are Orcs (not that anyone said otherwise, it's just more to consider).

There is some draft evidence, earlier 'unpublished' versions that might indicate a different idea. In drafts JRRT wrote: 'But the Goblins -- fierce orcs in great number -- drove them out after many wars'

And Christopher Tolkien notes: _'At this stage it seems that 'Orcs' are to be regarded as a more formidable kind of 'Goblin'; so in the preliminary sketch for 'The Mines of Moria' Gandalf says_ 'there are goblins -- of very evil kind, larger than usual, real orcs.' This was revised to: 'There are goblins: very many of them,' he said. 'Evil they look and large: veritable Orcs' further revised to '... Evil they look and large: black Orcs' revised again to (final published form): 'There are Orcs, very many of them. And some are large and evil: black Uruks of Mordor.'

But again, these are just drafts; and as has been said Tolkien would land on 'goblin' being a translation of _Orc_.


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## Prince of Cats (Apr 9, 2008)

Galin,

Thanks for the additional info. Interesting, how an Orc might be a _type_ of Goblin


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## Sidhe (Apr 15, 2008)

Galin said:


> Another text of note is _Of the Finding of the Ring_ in the Prologue to The Fellowship, where Bilbo's party from _The Hobbit_ 'was assailed by Orcs in a high pass of the Misty Mountains as they went towards Wilderland' It also notes that Bilbo was lost for a while in the black 'orc-mines' deep under the mountains. So these 'goblins' in general, are Orcs (not that anyone said otherwise, it's just more to consider).
> 
> There is some draft evidence, earlier 'unpublished' versions that might indicate a different idea. In drafts JRRT wrote: 'But the Goblins -- fierce orcs in great number -- drove them out after many wars'
> 
> ...



Very interesting, looks like he had developed orcs/goblins over time I think. He had a a few preliminary ideas, then some better ones and the rest is history or should I say his story, to use a cliché. Thanks for the texts.


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## Elthir (Apr 16, 2008)

Perhaps more confusing, much earlier than drafts for _The Lord of the Rings_, in the index to the very early _Book of Lost Tales_ Christopher Tolkien writes: *Goblins* 'Frequently used as alternative term to Orcs (cf. Melko's 'goblins' the orcs of the hills 157, but sometimes apparently distinguished. 31, 230).'

These last two refer to: 'Nigh were the sad chambers where the thrall-noldoli laboured bitterly under the Orcs and goblins of the hills...' (p. 31) and 'Moreover he gathered about him a great host of the Orcs, and wandering goblins, promising them a good wage,...' (p. 230)

So it's a bit confusing even early on. I haven't had time yet to look at the drafts for _The Hobbit_ on this issue (published by Rateliff), but in any case I'm glad Tolkien landed on the later idea that Orcs and goblins are no different, despite that these words are.


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## Sidhe (Apr 16, 2008)

Galin said:


> Perhaps more confusing, much earlier than drafts for _The Lord of the Rings_, in the index to the very early _Book of Lost Tales_ Christopher Tolkien writes: *Goblins* 'Frequently used as alternative term to Orcs (cf. Melko's 'goblins' the orcs of the hills 157, but sometimes apparently distinguished. 31, 230).'
> 
> These last two refer to: 'Nigh were the sad chambers where the thrall-noldoli laboured bitterly under the Orcs and goblins of the hills...' (p. 31) and 'Moreover he gathered about him a great host of the Orcs, and wandering goblins, promising them a good wage,...' (p. 230)
> 
> So it's a bit confusing even early on. I haven't had time yet to look at the drafts for _The Hobbit_ on this issue (published by Rateliff), but in any case I'm glad Tolkien landed on the later idea that Orcs and goblins are no different, despite that these words are.



Galin very scholarly thanks. I think he decided in the end it was better to combine the two, as you say?


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