# Different destinations



## Ithrynluin (Jun 27, 2004)

Tuor and Idril, a mortal and an immortal, loved each other greatly and were granted (or rather, Tuor was) the fate of the Elves.

Beren and Lúthien, also a mortal and immortal, who shared probably the fairest love story there ever was, were granted the destinies of Men, and died, and left the Circles of the World.

Now it could also be mentioned that Aragorn and Arwen got to be mortals just like Beren and Lúthien did, but their case is different in that the dominion of Men was fast approaching and if they were to be King and Queen, they could only be mortal and no other way.

Why do you think this distinction exists? Why were these two couples handled differently? Why couldn't Beren and Lúthien remain together in the land of Aman?


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## HLGStrider (Jun 28, 2004)

I think Arwen and Aragorn should be left out of the discussion. They simply are part of the Lord of the Rings and so in a different ball park.. .am I making any sense? 

Anyway, perhaps it was simply so one couple could go one way and the other the other? In the writing sense. . .

but in the sense of the story, I always thought it was because Luthien had to make a sacrifice for Beren to carry over the strength of her character and the tragedy of their love. It would be too easy if Beren gets the girl and eternal life in the package. No sacrfice whatsoever. On the other hand, Luthien giving up her eternal life is a glorious sacrifice, and much more heroic.


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## Artanis (Jun 28, 2004)

Gorthaur said:


> Why do you think this distinction exists? Why were these two couples handled differently? Why couldn't Beren and Lúthien remain together in the land of Aman?


It is not clear to me which two of the three couples you mention you are talking about here, but I'm assuming you're talking about the different fates of Tuor/Idril and Beren/Lúthien. The case of Arwen is different, since she was a Half-Elven.

Lúthien is to me a very special case. She wasn't only immortal, she was of divine race, but chose mortality for the case of a Man. Beren and Lúthien could not dwell together in Aman, for not even Manwë had the power to take away death, the Gift to Men. But through Manwë Iluvatar gave Lúthien the opportunity to have a part in this gift.

About Tuor there is to be said that we do not know his fate for certain. Though I would like to think that he became immortal and got to share the fate of the Elves together with his Idril, I wonder if this assumption was no more than a romantic imagination made up by the Elves.


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## Ithrynluin (Jun 28, 2004)

HLGStrider said:


> I think Arwen and Aragorn should be left out of the discussion. They simply are part of the Lord of the Rings and so in a different ball park.. .am I making any sense?


I threw Arwen and Aragorn in there for comparison and dismissed them at once. 



> Anyway, perhaps it was simply so one couple could go one way and the other the other? In the writing sense. . .


This might have been part of the reason, but there has to exist a story-internal reason as well. Tolkien did not leave the motives of his characters unexplained and his world was devised to make sense in and of itself (the infamous response to the question 'Why couldn't the Eagles bear the Ringbearer all the way to Mount Doom?' - 'Because then we would have no story' )



> It would be too easy if Beren gets the girl and eternal life in the package. No sacrfice whatsoever.


It was _Lúthien _who had to make the sacrifice. And didn't Beren make quite enough of a sacrifice going to Angband and through all the horrors to gain the Silmaril, and dying in the end? And besides, they *did *get to share eternal life in a sense, since they both left the circles of the world and were not sundered. But then again, wasn't what you describe above exactly how Tuor had it?



> About Tuor there is to be said that we do not know his fate for certain. Though I would like to think that he became immortal and got to share the fate of the Elves together with his Idril, I wonder if this assumption was no more than a romantic imagination made up by the Elves.


You are right - his fate is not 'confirmed'. Though I seriously doubt that the Valar would have kept their rigid rule in wrecking Tuor and Idril's ship, so I'm quite sure they made it and are living blissful Elven lives there.


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## Inderjit S (Jun 29, 2004)

> Túor weds Idril the daughter of Turgon King of Gondolin; and 'it is supposed' (not stated) that he as an unique exception receives the Elvish limited 'immortality': an exception either way"... "Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the Eruhini (in whose conception and creation the Valar had no part at all) it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case: the cases of Lúthien (and Túor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God. The entering into Men of the Elven-strain is indeed represented as part of a Divine Plan for the ennoblement of the Human Race, from the beginning destined to replace the Elves."


 'Letters of Tolkien'



> You are right - his fate is not 'confirmed'. Though I seriously doubt that the Valar would have kept their rigid rule in wrecking Tuor and Idril's ship, so I'm quite sure they made it and are living blissful Elven lives there.



Any decision on whether Tuor could be immortalised would have, in the end, been up to Eru, not the Valar. 



> Why couldn't Beren and Lúthien remain together in the land of Aman?



I guess them dieing would have emphasised the "sacrifice" that Lúthien made. The Elves lost their fairest forever-and would Beren have been happy to live forever?


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## Confusticated (Jul 14, 2004)

Gorthaur said:


> Why were these two couples handled differently?



Nay, O evil servent of Melko! Ye tell me! Why the three happy couples but Andreth? Now, THIS is "different" handlin'!


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## Artanis (Jul 18, 2004)

Maikanare said:


> Nay, O evil servent of Melko! Ye tell me! Why the three happy couples but Andreth? Now, THIS is "different" handlin'!


We have heard about Aikanáro and Andreth because they both were close to Finrod, but there were probably more unhappy couples around than just them. Men and Elves met, some of them were bound to fall in love. But as Finrod said to Andreth: " if any marriage can be between our kindred and thine, then it shall be for some high purpose of Doom." Which is certainly true for Beren and Lúthien, Tuor and Idril, and Aragorn and Arwen.


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## Confusticated (Jul 22, 2004)

That was just my smart-aleck way of saying "at least they got to be together, some others did not!" But I agree there would be other cases we don't hear about.


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