# Was Melkor ever good?



## BalrogRingDestroyer (Dec 28, 2018)

Gandalf said that nobody started out as evil, not even Sauron. While Sauron may have been good before he became corrupted by Melkor, it seems that, even during the creation song, Melkor was, if not openly evil, at least openly trying to go his own way rather than follow Eru.


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## Scaverius (Jan 4, 2019)

I think he was. For example, he didn't always wear the name Morgoth. And there was no evil in trying to go one's own way, unless 'one's own way' was to try to openly withstand the will of Illuvatar. Melkor didn't intentionally withstand the will of Illuvatar until he descended into Arda to fight other Valar and even then he was not irredeemable. His name was still Melkor when he was captured and held captive and then released later to walk free within the bounds of Valinor. It is when he seduced Feanor to distrust the Valar, destroyed the Two Trees of Valinor and slew Finwe - Melkor was named Morgoth or 'the Black Foe of the World'. I think the slaughter of Finwe was the act that crossed the final line for Melkor - here he openly withstood not the Valar, but Illuvatar, daring to kill one of the Firstborn children of His.


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## Elaini (Jan 4, 2019)

He was the most ambitious of all. Ambition in itself isn't a bad thing, but in excess it leads to jealousy. Melkor is basically the embodiment of that. Each Vala embodies an attitude or an element, remember?


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## Miguel (Jan 4, 2019)

He hang out in a bad neighborhood for a while that's all.


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## Azrubêl (Jan 18, 2019)

Tolkien says how the music and actions of the Valar were from their own decisions. It seems like Melkor chooses this path during the music when he plays with pride instead of pure creativity which is balance between the individual voice and the whole of the music.



Elaini said:


> He was the most ambitious of all. Ambition in itself isn't a bad thing, but in excess it leads to jealousy. Melkor is basically the embodiment of that. Each Vala embodies an attitude or an element, remember?



I think this is a good point, it was ambition that held _potential _to be a negative trait for Melkor. It's interesting, because Tolkien writes that ultimately even all the destruction of Melkor would be used for the greater fulfillment of Ilúvatar's vision, and he says that Melkor knew more of the mind of Ilúvatar than any other. So, Melkor has the largest impact on the whole history of Arda.

One could even argue that evil gradually entered Melkor more, from his discord in the music, to when he was destroying the landscape before the Two Trees were created as a titan-like figure, to when he was trying to conquer in battle against the Valar, to when he was enslaving and killing the Children of Ilúvatar.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jan 18, 2019)

Elaini said:


> He was the most ambitious of all. Ambition in itself isn't a bad thing, but in excess it leads to jealousy. Melkor is basically the embodiment of that. Each Vala embodies an attitude or an element, remember?


Good point. A couple of other examples could be cited: Aule's drive for making things, or the wild exuberance of Osse, either of which, if unchecked, become destructive.


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## Inziladun (Mar 18, 2019)

The way I see it, Melkor in the beginning had good intentions, yea he brought discord into the Music, but that discord was part of the music too—it was free will that was made from his Song. That was his role in the Music. Think about it: is it not the pain and hardness of life that gives life meaning, discovering our purpose?


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## gentleDrift (Mar 20, 2019)

I wonder wether the answer might not be "no" by definition, in some sense at least. These are of course highly philosophical questions, but to me it seems that the very concept of Evil in Tolkien's world is created with the discord of Melkor in the Ainulindale. Before that, or in some alternate Arda Unmarred, would there even have been anything evil? I don't get that impression, and therefore everything we might judge as evil or imperfect must have its root in the discord of Melkor. In particular, Melkor himself cannot have been "good" ever since the Music of the Ainur, but rather it is through Melkor and his actions that the concept of Evil itself is defined*.

So if Melkor ever has been "good" in the sense of adhering to the original design of Eru**, it must have been before the Music. Of that time we are told little in the Silmarillion - but we are told that Melkor went alone into the void to seek the Flame Imperishable, being misguided in this, for it was with Eru. This seems to me like the earliest sign of Melkor's fall, but it is all so abstracted that it is hard to tell what precisely is happening here - remember that within the fictional frame this is some mortal (possibly Bilbo) recalling/translating what he has heard from Elves, who were told this by the Valar in an attempt to somehow make relatable events occurring before the creation of Arda. This makes any interpretation of events and motives in the Ainulindale quite difficult.

* This might be only partially correct, as there seem to be some things that are evil and yet don't have their origin in Melkor, like Ungoliant for example.

** Another point (that Inziladun has raised as well) is that ultimately, Melkor cannot alter the plans of Eru, and that even the Discord in the Music only gives rise to more beauty in creation. But I think that this is just to say that Melkor being evil is part of Eru's plan, and not that Melkor was not evil. Or that in some sense, Evil itself is not an evil thing. It is a complex topic.


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## Ithilethiel (Mar 20, 2019)

gentleDrift said:


> ** Another point (that Inziladun has raised as well) is that ultimately, Melkor cannot alter the plans of Eru, and that even the Discord in the Music only gives rise to more beauty in creation. But I think that this is just to say that Melkor being evil is part of Eru's plan, and not that Melkor was not evil. Or that in some sense, Evil itself is not an evil thing. It is a complex topic.



In a sense it is similar to biblical and ancient writings, where certain individuals (The Creation Story) or Satan or similar protagonists committ an evil act bringing disharmony into the world. However God, a Divine Spirit or Power eventually uses that evil for good. 

Since I am Christian I think of the Story of Joseph in Genesis when he says to his brothers who faked his death and sold him into slavery but who has survived and since prospered,

_ "As for you, you meant it for evil against me; but God meant it for good." _(Joseph saves his family from starvation during 7 yrs of famine.)

Even Melkor's discord/marring/evil bringing was used by Eru for good to his purpose. Melkior's power and creations are only parasitic, without free will. A corruption of Eru's. But thru this evil comes great beauty, the friendship and servanthood of The Nine. Evil is undone not by the mighty but by the lowly, often out of view of Sauron and others who have succumbed to the slavery of evil. In the words of Elrond,

_“Yet such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere.”_

In the end good triumphs over evil. I love Sam's thoughts on the beauty of a star shining above in the darkness of Mordor,

_"The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of that forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty forever beyond its reach.”_


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## Inziladun (Mar 23, 2019)

gentleDrift said:


> I wonder wether the answer might not be "no" by definition, in some sense at least. These are of course highly philosophical questions, but to me it seems that the very concept of Evil in Tolkien's world is created with the discord of Melkor in the Ainulindale. Before that, or in some alternate Arda Unmarred, would there even have been anything evil? I don't get that impression, and therefore everything we might judge as evil or imperfect must have its root in the discord of Melkor. In particular, Melkor himself cannot have been "good" ever since the Music of the Ainur, but rather it is through Melkor and his actions that the concept of Evil itself is defined*.
> 
> So if Melkor ever has been "good" in the sense of adhering to the original design of Eru**, it must have been before the Music. Of that time we are told little in the Silmarillion - but we are told that Melkor went alone into the void to seek the Flame Imperishable, being misguided in this, for it was with Eru. This seems to me like the earliest sign of Melkor's fall, but it is all so abstracted that it is hard to tell what precisely is happening here - remember that within the fictional frame this is some mortal (possibly Bilbo) recalling/translating what he has heard from Elves, who were told this by the Valar in an attempt to somehow make relatable events occurring before the creation of Arda. This makes any interpretation of events and motives in the Ainulindale quite difficult.
> 
> ...





Ithilethiel said:


> In a sense it is similar to biblical and ancient writings, where certain individuals (The Creation Story) or Satan or similar protagonists committ an evil act bringing disharmony into the world. However God, a Divine Spirit or Power eventually uses that evil for good.
> 
> Since I am Christian I think of the Story of Joseph in Genesis when he says to his brothers who faked his death and sold him into slavery but who has survived and since prospered,
> 
> ...



You both make very good points, and I believe that he was ultimately evil after he descended into Ëa, but he was not _made_ to be evil. And his discord was necessary to the fulfillment of Arda (though those in Arda might disagree). No one ever will want to admit that good came from evil, especially if they experienced that evil; yet if they looked at it beyond their own lives, then is it a glorious role to have suffered it.


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## Sulimo (Mar 25, 2019)

Melkor was not evil from his inception. All the Ainur were created from the mind of Iluvatar, and only understood the portion of his mind that he had gifted them. Iluvatar is perfect and the creator. The discord and strife sowed by Melko was in no way a desire of Iluvatar. Melkor expressed his free will and the gifts given to him to express himself. 

"But for a long while they sang only each alone, or but few together, while the rest hearkened; for each comprehended only that part of the mind of Iluvatar from which he came, and in understanding of their brethren they grew but slowly." 
Ainulindale pg 15

The Book of Lost Tales goes into more detail on this matter, and what it reveals is Melkor is unlike so many of the other Ainur, or more specifically Valar. Each of them have there classic representation similar to Gods in so many mythologies created by people attempting to understand the natural forces at work around them, and explain their existence. Melkor, however; created in the image of Iluvatar was given the gifts of: power, wisdom, and knowledge. Compounded with a strong desire to create. He sought out these things and they drove him to clash against the theme of Iluvatar. Because the very gifts made him seek independence and mastery. One could argue that just as Manwe could not comprehend evil when he allowed Melkor to be unchained. Melkor could not understand empathy. He only knew his own desires that drove him to be what he is. While other Ainur listened to their brothers and their understanding and bonds grew and deepened, Melkor was off chasing the Secret Fire. It is truly a tragedy that the one most gifted and like his father in skill lacks the compassion and understanding of fellowship. 

"But as the great theme progressed it came into the heart of Melko to interweave matters of his own vain imagining that were not fitting to that great theme of Iluvatar. Now Melko had among the Ainur been given some of the greatest gifts of power and wisdom and knowledge by Iluvatar, and he fared often alone into the dark places and the voids seeking the Secret Fire that giveth Life and Reality (for he had a very hot desire to bring things into being of his own); yet he found it not, for it dwelleth with Iluvatar, and that he knew not till afterward."
Book of Lost Tales 1 The Music of the Ainur pg 51

Now this could open up all sorts of philosophical debates of was Melkor doomed to rebel. That is a difficult question to answer. What we can know for a fact are that he was made in the image of Iluvatar. That he sought his own pursuits and desires over those of Iluvatar as well as the other Ainur, that he does not appear to possess humility, and that he is driven by pride and desire. What's interesting is how much he has in common with Feanor. However, no one would make an argument if Feanor was always evil or even evil at all. I personally believe that Melkor had a capacity to do great good, but failed because he never took the time to understand others. Also he is very similar to Turin. He wanted what he couldn't have fooling himself into believing it was in his grasp, and the thirst for that power overrode all other desires in his life. This characteristic is further exhibited in the Fall of Gondolin. 

"Then arose Thorondor, King of Eagles, and he loved not Melko; for Melko had caught many of his kindred and chained them against sharp rocks...whereby he might learn to fly (for he dreamed of contending even against Manwe in the air); and when they would not tell he cut off their wings and to fashion therefrom a mighty pair for his use."
The Fall of Gondolin pg 106 

I personally believe that Melkor was not evil, but he probably would have rebelled regardless of the circumstances. However, never did his rebellion have an effect on the plan of Iluvatar. For he only knew that which had been gifted to him by Iluvatar.


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## Inziladun (Mar 30, 2019)

Sulimo said:


> Now this could open up all sorts of philosophical debates of was Melkor doomed to rebel. That is a difficult question to answer. What we can know for a fact are that he was made in the image of Iluvatar. That he sought his own pursuits and desires over those of Iluvatar as well as the other Ainur, that he does not appear to possess humility, and that he is driven by pride and desire. What's interesting is how much he has in common with Feanor. However, no one would make an argument if Feanor was always evil or even evil at all. I personally believe that Melkor had a capacity to do great good, but failed because he never took the time to understand others. Also he is very similar to Turin. He wanted what he couldn't have fooling himself into believing it was in his grasp, and the thirst for that power overrode all other desires in his life. This characteristic is further exhibited in the Fall of Gondolin.



The greatest question is how much was revealed to the Ainur in the Vision? Melkor could do no evil deed, or good without it having its source Ilúvatar. Eru designed these things with a vision of what they should become. One could say Melkor was good because he was evil, but 'evil' is just a notion. Could evil exist without sentient life?
There is no progress without change, evil and conflict seem to be the catalyst that brings the greatest change to events in our world, and Tolkien's. Therefore it is a natural thing, like the transition of one season to another.


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## Malfurion (May 27, 2019)

This is a wonderful forum, first time posting, not really on the internet much but I love Tolkien and I happened across this. 

I feel like the core answer is “of course”, for the first five paragraphs of the Silmarillion, which covers an expanse time, Ilúvatar is well pleased and there is no discord. And the mere fact that Melko was created by Ilúvatar causes me to believe that he can’t have been fully evil. In the same way that Lucifer can’t be pure evil in the Christian narrative, he was an archangel once. Another point to this would be that after Ilúvatar puts an end to their music, and criticizes Melko for his song of discord, Melko is ashamed of himself. Certainly that shame lead to anger, but simply feeling shame is, I’d argue, the mark of a conscience. 

Now the interesting question I think is when did Melko become irredeemable, because I imagine we’d all agree he certainly was, but at what moment did he cross that line? Some great answers already on this thread. When he earned the name ‘Morgoth’ in my opinion, but it might be rather subjective. 

Love the forum!


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## user16578 (May 28, 2019)

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/index.php?threads/tolkien-and-the-fall.19445/#post-525201


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## Miguel (Jun 1, 2019)

Nienna visits Melko and they talk about Fëanor:


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## grendel (Jun 5, 2019)

Melkor was the epitome of selfish love, IMO. The other Valar loved the vision of Arda and wanted to be part of it, to enjoy it and SHARE it. Melkor just wanted it, for himself. This type of perverted love led him to (eventually) be nothing but evil.


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## DarkLordMelkor (Aug 15, 2019)

>.>


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## Sulimo (Feb 9, 2022)

Malfurion said


> Now the interesting question I think is when did Melko become irredeemable, because I imagine we’d all agree he certainly was, but at what moment did he cross that line? Some great answers already on this thread. When he earned the name ‘Morgoth’ in my opinion, but it might be rather subjective.



This is subjective, but my guess is that Melkor never crossed that line. It is not our place to judge. You cannot look at any one of Melkor's action and say that is any more or less reprehensible then another. There was no action performed that would make him truly irredeemable in the eyes of Illuvatar. However, that does not change the fact that his heart was unrepentant. As I stated earlier I believe that Melkor lacked humility, and empathy. His selfish desires and ambitions propelled him from one atrocity to the next. The net effect was not that he was irredeemable. Instead what is revealed from his story is the destructiveness of pride. Melkor's attempts at creation were a perversion only accomplished through a relinquishing of a portion of his power. 

Every abhorrent action he performed reduced his might. I believe that this is an important theme in Tolkien's work. Just look at the Ring of Power and think about how much of his "might" Sauron poured into it. So much so that its destruction ended his very existence. The same is true of his master. Pride and ambition are destructive. When one's life is lived focused only around accomplishing their own selfish desires at any cost. It is never a question of whether or not they are irredeemable. It is a question of how hard hard is their heart, and whether they would ever be willing to truly repent.


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## m4r35n357 (Feb 10, 2022)

Sulimo said:


> Melkor was not evil from his inception. All the Ainur were created from the mind of Iluvatar, and only understood the portion of his mind that he had gifted them. Iluvatar is perfect and the creator. The discord and strife sowed by Melko was in no way a desire of Iluvatar. Melkor expressed his free will and the gifts given to him to express himself.



_My_ reading of the Ainulindale shows that Melkor is _carefully guided and groomed_ by Iluvatar, specifically to bring into being and _control_ the whole idea of "evil". For example, after the first "Music":



> Then Iluvatar arose, and the Ainur percieved that he smiled


Iluvatar is clearly unconcerned, and even pleased with Melkor's "rebellion" at this stage! The second "Music" is less clear, and was changed byJRRT over time (e.g. in Ainulindale B, HoME vol 5):



> Iluvatar smiled no longer, but wept


and in its published form:



> The Ainur perceived that his countenance was stern


In both of these I read Iluvatar "appreciating" Melkor's nascent efforts at evil, but noting he is not quite there yet! So, one more go . . .

In the third "Music" Melkor has clearly developed _sufficiently fully_ the concept of evil (also note that the "non-evil" Ainur are already taking bits that they _want_ from the theme of Melkor), and Iluvatar sees that it is now time to stop the music and let the games begin!

Just my readings, of course, but I prefer them to the more "pious" interpretations


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## 1stvermont (Feb 10, 2022)

BalrogRingDestroyer said:


> Gandalf said that nobody started out as evil, not even Sauron. While Sauron may have been good before he became corrupted by Melkor, it seems that, even during the creation song, Melkor was, if not openly evil, at least openly trying to go his own way rather than follow Eru.



Not sure if this has been mentioned (I did not read the thread sorry) but I believe it is the Silmarillion where we read that Melkor had "even been as manwe was" or something to that effect. So yes, he was originally "good."


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## Sulimo (Feb 10, 2022)

While I respect your opinion I do fundamentally disagree with your interpretation m4r35n357. The primary reason is that the Ainulindale is the Music of the Valar, not the music of Melko. I believe that the scope of Illuvatar's plan and his reactions are much more complex then a reaction to Melkor. In the music of the Ainur their is beauty and wonder and a world is shaped to be inhabited with various races that will have rich and meaningful existences. While it is true that Illuvatar smiled at the end of the first theme, I do not believe that was because he was witnessing the birth of evil. I try to think about what period of time is covered in the first theme. In my opinion that theme covers the making of the world to the founding of Valinor. In that time Melkor did create strife among his brothers which included destroying the lamps and flooding the world in darkness. However, the Valar, made something beautiful out of his malice, and built Valinor. I see Illuvatar's smile as the result of seeing the Valar growing in their majesty, overcoming darkness, and healing grievous wounds that discord has brought upon creation. 
Then that would bring us to the second theme. I believe this theme began with Varda hanging the stars in the sky, and the awakening of the elves. This theme is richer and greater, but also the machinations of Melkor are even more audacious. Previously he corrupted some Maiar, but now we see he has perverted their souls and turned them into dragons, and who knows what else. He also has tortured and twisted the elves he captured and turned them into orcs. He is playing God, but it is a poor attempt. In my opinion I believe this theme continues until the separation of Valinor from the world at the time of the Akallabeth. This is a dismal conclusion. The Doom of Mandos destroyed almost the entire House of Finwe, Beleriend was destroyed, and finally Numenor and the house of Elros have fallen from grace. I think that would explain the stern expression on Illuvatar's face. 
The final theme I believe represents the time of man. We only see a portion of this theme play out, in the Lord of the Rings, but there is much to weep over in what results. Arnor is gone, Gondor is basically Minas Tirith and its immediate neighbors. Sauraman has fallen. The forests are gone. The elves live in a couple strongholds, but that's it.. The book has good triumph, but at what cost. Reread the dirge from the Battle of the Pelannor Fields. This theme continues through the ages to the end of time. How much tragedy and heartache has been wrought through this music. There is beauty, light, and hope. There were two themes competing not just one., However, men are so much weaker then the elves. Their existence is briefer. Their pride is greater. Illuvator does make it clear that he is the one in control. He stands ending the music representing that he will see to healing the discord himself. That Melkor's attempts at control will not succeed, and that though there will be much pain and suffering Illuvatar will use this to bring about something amazing. Hence his response . 



> Mighty are the Ainur, and glorious, and among them is Melko the most powerful, in knowledge...Thou Melko shalt see thtat no theme can be played save it come in the end of Illuvatar's self, nor can any alter the music in Illuvatar's despite. He that attempts this finds himself in the end but aiding me in devising a thing of still greater grandeur and more complex wonder


The Book of Lost Tales 1

I do not believe that Melkor was groomed to become evil. I think he possessed great ambition and put his desires before the needs of others. Illuvatar created him with the capacity for freewill and he chose to foment discord and wreak havoc. I do not believe that this was Illuvatar's wish. Why else would he have stated that Melkor was acting counter to theme of his music.. That's my 2 cents at least.


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## m4r35n357 (Feb 10, 2022)

Sulimo said:


> Illuvatar created him with the capacity for freewill


To make that work you need to equate it with (unless you have a better reference!)


> and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, _that were the offspring of his thought_


which is not a step I would be prepared to take  I say it is clear where the buck stops!


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## Halasían (Feb 10, 2022)

> Was Melkor ever good?​



I understand he played some really good improv jazz but Eru didn't like it and kicked him out.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 10, 2022)




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## Lómelindë Lindórië (Apr 27, 2022)

Melkor certainly wasn't evil at the start, even if his actions weren't fully good in a sense. He simply wanted to go his own way during the Ainulindale, and even the discord created by Melkor was not out of Eru's plan.

Even in later chapters, Melkor is still named "Melkor" once in a while, though by such a point he mostly goes by the name of "Morgoth", thanks to Feanor.


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## Melkor (Apr 29, 2022)

Miriel Amaniel said:


> Melkor certainly wasn't evil at the start, even if his actions weren't fully good in a sense. He simply wanted to go his own way during the Ainulindale, and even the discord created by Melkor was not out of Eru's plan.


Yay! Finally some friend of mine besides Annatar! You are welcome in Angband anytime! 



Halasían said:


> I understand he played some really good improv jazz but Eru didn't like it and kicked him out.


Yeah, that's precisely what happened! You are welcome in Angband too .


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## Lómelindë Lindórië (Apr 29, 2022)

Melkor said:


> Yay! Finally some friend of mine besides Annatar! You are welcome in Angband anytime!
> 
> 
> Yeah, that's precisely what happened! You are welcome in Angband too .


Do I find myself to be *a little more welcome* in Angband compared to the level of welcome for Halasian?


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## Melkor (Apr 29, 2022)

Miriel Amaniel said:


> Do I find myself to be *a little more welcome* in Angband compared to the level of welcome for Halasian?


You are both welcome equally well .


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## Annatar (Apr 29, 2022)

Halasían said:


> I understand he played some really good improv jazz but Eru didn't like it and kicked him out.





Squint-eyed Southerner said:


>



Well, actually, nobody likes jazz except beings from Mordor.

And actually nobody likes Lisa Simpson either. 😇

Jazz... These are almost all dissonances.

But sometimes there are some nice exceptions like this in the interplay:






And that's why Eru allows them to do their own thing.
Because this creates a contrast that is necessary for our consciousness, and it also allows exceptions that might lead to something very special.
And maybe because Eru is just sitting there drinking a beer?

Edit:

Well, now it's getting quite off-topic, but somehow I like Lisa's singing voice 😃:


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## HALETH✒🗡 (Apr 30, 2022)

Melkor's music caused an absolute cacophony. I wouldn't compare it with merry and beautiful jazz. Moreover, appearance of jazz goes back to religious music that wouldn't be against Eru's will. 
Melkor used to be good before he became proud and turned against Eru.


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## Melkor (May 1, 2022)

HALETH✒🗡 said:


> Melkor's music caused an absolute cacophony.


Something like that?


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## Lómelindë Lindórië (May 1, 2022)

Melkor said:


> Something like that?


Hmm...what can I say? It didn't sound that bad, Melkor. _I was with you at the Ainulindale, and I heard you._


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## Olorgando (May 1, 2022)

Melkor said:


> Something like that?


*mumble grumble*
That would be "Assurancetourix" in the French original of the hugely enjoyable "Asterix" comic books (I have every one except for the last two).
Meaning "comprehensive insurance", as his singing could easily drive a Roman legion away in disarray to save his village in dire need - and *did* drive the Normans (here in the sense of ancient Vikings, about 800 years out of place) batty in the book dealing with them.
"Cacofonix" in the English translation, the rather banal "Troubadix" in the German one ... which is second only to the French original in total sales.


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## Uminya (May 3, 2022)

grendel said:


> Melkor was the epitome of selfish love, IMO. The other Valar loved the vision of Arda and wanted to be part of it, to enjoy it and SHARE it. Melkor just wanted it, for himself. This type of perverted love led him to (eventually) be nothing but evil.



Having *just* reread the Silmarillion (and having done a lot of growing up since the last time I read it), I think this is the closest answer to the mark. Melkor was always redeemable, but he could only conceptualize love in selfish terms. He desperately wanted adoration, but humility and admitting mistakes were anathema to him; thus every gesture of conciliation or rehabilitation was rejected and resented. He was arguably the most gifted of the Ainur, but when he realized his gifts did not entitle him to domination over the other Ainur, his flaws set him on a path that he refused to depart.

I feel like this theme recurs in Tolkien's stories, especially that of Turin. Neither character was intrinsically evil, but both caused immense suffering because of their pride and resentfulness. Feanor, Ar-Pharazon, and Isildur all come to mind as well.


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