# Gandalf's words to Balrog



## Thorin

" You cannot pass. I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun. Go back to the shadow! You cannot pass."

Gandalf to Balrog on Bridge of Khazad-dum
__________________________

I believe that Anor was ultimately meant to be Aman according to "HoME X, Morgoth's Ring." Any idea what the secret flame is?

Also the Balrogs were subject to Morgoth and were never in Sauron's service. You might say that they were renegades after Morgoth was finally defeated by the Valar. Udun is the area between Isenmouth and Morannon in Mordor. Considering that Morgoth's domain was never in Mordor but North Beleriand, why did Gandalf call it "flame of Udun"? Was it because the evil it represents was now in the form of Sauron in Mordor? Sort of a indirect, general association with evil? But if that is the case, why not call it "flame of Barad-dur"?


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## Snaga

Top question Thorin, I'd been thinking about that myself and meaning to look it up. Doesn't Anor mean Sun, as in Minas Anor the old name for Minas Tirith? Can't help beyond that though.


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## Ragnarok

I know all the answers!

The Secret Flame is Gandalf's Ring, which was given to him by Cirdan. The Ring is one of the Three Elven Rings. It is Narya, Ring of Flame.

Udun is Sindarin for Utumno, Melkor's ancient fortress. It is also a valley in Mordor. But here it means Utumno.

When Gandalf says shadow, that doesnt just mean Sauron, it means all the Dark Lords and evil. He's telling him to go back from wherever he came. 

I think you made a mistake, cause I thought Amon is sun. As in Amon-sul (Weathertop). And sun means light and light means good so it could be a metaphor for Good.

Hope that helps!


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## Greymantle

I don't think the Secret Fire is Narya... not that I have any real evidence to back it up. I personally speculated that it might represent the Flame of Iluvatar... why, I'm not sure. Gut feeling?

As for the "flame of Anor"... Thorin says that Anor is Aman, and the Elven Rings most certainly did not some out of Aman. This would make it odd for the "flame of Anor" to be Narya... but what other fires does he "weild?"


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## Snaga

*Moria in general*

I wanted to come back to this thread, and perhaps broaden it out too. I felt this was a bit inconclusive... if I was a scholar of elvish I might want to translate some of the words Gandalf uses to light the fire on Caradhras. But I'm not!

The broader question I want to pitch in was how much influence did Sauron have over Moria?

At one point in FotR Gandalf says:



> There are orcs, many of them ... and some are large and evil: black Uruks of Mordor



Later when the fellowship reach Lorien, Haldir (I think) says that they were on their guard because a large band of orcs had headed up to Moria a few days previously. Was this Sauron sending his boys up there?

This links with a separate point which is that after they are nearly spotted by the crebain from Dunland, there is a point where the Fellowship sense something overhead, but don't know what it is. One theory would say that it was a Nazgul, and in fact Sauron was much more on their tail all along than I'd previously guessed, and sends the Uruks up to get them. I dunno - just a thought. Any views?


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## Greenleaf

I don't think Sauron had so much influence as it was just infested with evil. The dwarfs delved to deep and awakened too much. Sauron may have had something to do with the trouble they (the fellowship) had in Moria, but I think mainly it was just not a nice place to go.


------Later when the fellowship reach Lorien, Haldir (I think) says that they were on their guard because a large band of orcs had headed up to Moria a few days previously. Was this Sauron sending his boys up there?-----

I don't remember that in the book could you give an exact quote?


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## Eonwe

I love these words, and I guess I thought of them like Greymantle...

I always felt like he was saying "Get back, I am a Maia, not of Men, so you won't kill me that easily"


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## Beorn

I cannot contribute much personally, but the Grey Havens addresses this:

http://tolkien.cro.net/else/gdfire.html


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## Arathin

I believe that Sauron probably had something to do with the Orcs in Moria, but...
The Orcs all high-tailed outta there when the Balrog came. I think Sauron had meant to stop them there, but that the Balrog was not on his side. Moria was probably just the things home, and it didn't like trespassers. 
But in considering all this, we must also consider that there had always been Orcs in Moria since the Dwarves left. The Balrog might have had a deal with the Orcs. Something like, You can live here as long as you stay out of my way. The Balrog also might have been more of a slave-driver to the Moria Orcs. They feared it, that we know for certain, but they also might have worked for it. Hence the whip.


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## Dengen-Goroth

All Balrogs had whips, along with their sowrds. The tongues of flame. That's basically all I can say, though I know there is a quote about this in the Silmarillion.


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## Ragnarok

I dont think the Balrog was directly under Sauron's control. But I think the Balrog recognized Sauron's power and that he was coming back to life.


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## Arathin

I don't know. The Balrog might have appeared because it knew that some evil power was around again for it to join with. 
I do think that Sauron sent Orcs. Maybe they were a show of "friendship" from him to the Balrog.


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## aragil

I always interpreted Gandalf to be saying that he had narya when he said he was the wielder of the flame of Anor. I'm not sure in what way you would wield the flame of Illuvatar, or the flame of the undying lands. Wielding flame through the ring seems more tangible, and is something that Gandalf does often in the books. Anor is Sindarin for Sun, the sun was guided by Arien, who was a spirit of fire. I think this might be a way for Gandalf to contrast the flame he had with that of the Balrog, who had also originally been a spirit of fire. Gandalf has long kept the ring a secret (as have the other bearers of the elven rings), and by referring to it in sindarin, he is still keeping it a secret from all but Legolas, Aragorn, and the Balrog. Therefore the ring could be interpreted as the 'secret fire'.
As for the orcs, I seriously doubt that Uruks from Mordor would just be hanging out in Moria. Haldir describes orcs moving from the south up to Moria on p. 445 of my copy of FOTR, about 14 pages into 'Lothlorien', right after Sam and Frodo join him on the _talan_:
_'We have been keeping watch on the rivers, ever since we saw a great troop of Orcs going north toward Moria, along the skirts of the mountains many days ago.'_
I think that this was Sauron's force to intercept the fellowship, much as Ugluk lead Saruman's intercepting force. Perhaps some spy of Sauron's did see the fellowship in Eregion. Maybe Sauron did control the storm on Caradhras, seeking to drive the fellowship into his waiting forces in Moria?


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## Lantarion

*Getting back to the 'flame'*

I also think it meant Iluvatar, or the Flame Imperishable; because Gandalf (Olorin) was a Maia, he was created by Iluvatar, right? Therefore some of his thought must have gone into the Maiar. So I think that all of the Maiar, including the Istari, knew of Iluvatar and the FI, but they didn't want to speak about it because they thought that the people of M-e could not comprehend the immeasurable power of Eru. So I think when Gandlaf says he is the 'servant of the Secret Fire', I think he's trying to intimidate the Balrog into realizing that he was a Maia, and a pretty powerful one too, and that he was on direct orders from Aule. After all, the Balrog was a Maia too.


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## BluestEye

*The Two Trees*

Exactly. This is also my opinion. I think that Gandalf is saying to the Balrog something like: "Hey, mister! You are very great and powerful and so big, that maybe you are not paying attention to whom is standing in front of you: I am one like you, a Maia, but I come from the Good party!"
But I thought about another thing (and I am sorry if I'm getting a little into the Sil instead of sticking to the LOTR, but this will be short... I promise.  In Aman there were the 2 trees, and when the Silmarills were made, the Light of the dying trees was put inside them (inside the three Silmarills). So maybe Gandlaf is speaking about the same source of light? In this way, Gandalf's saying connects him to Aman... Who put this Light into the Trees? Does someone remember this?

BluestEye


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## Grond

*Re: The Two Trees*



> _Originally posted by BluestEye _
> *... Who put this Light into the Trees? Does someone remember this?
> 
> BluestEye *


Er.... that would have been Yavanna.


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## gaffer

i know what you mean about the light of the trees and whatnot, and that is perceptive, but that's a different light. he IS talking about the flame imperishable, though, the fire of lluvatar.


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## BluestEye

*Bright Light! Bright Light!*

But it could be that Yavanna gave this light to Gandalf to keep for the Valar while he is on his mission in Middle-Earth. If Yavanna put the light in the Trees, why not giving Gandalf the Flame Imperishable as well? Maybe she was the keeper of these kind of "Lights"... 
Another thing: what about Galadriel's Lamp? She gave it to Frodo but it is only said that it contained the same source of light that the Silmarills had. What is this light anyway? Maybe the Flame Imperishable is devided between many devices, magical ones, in Middle-Earth and are kept by the Greatest of beings. Gandalf, Galadriel (And Frodo for some time) between them... I know it sounds a little crazy but... couldn't it be?

BluestEye


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## Merry

> _Originally posted by Ragnarok _
> *I dont think the Balrog was directly under Sauron's control. But I think the Balrog recognized Sauron's power and that he was coming back to life. *



The Silmarillion says that Sauron was lieutenant of all Melkors forces, including the Balrogs. I reckon that they were directly under his influence once they had been unearthed by the greedy dwarves.


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## Elanor2

Aragil said:

>>>Anor is Sindarin for Sun, the sun was guided by Arien, who was a spirit of fire. <<<

I think that could be an answer. If I remember correctly, the Sil says that some "spirits of fire" (Maiars) went to Morgoth side and became Balrogs, but others remained loyal. One of them was Ariel, a maiden that was chosen to direct the vessel of the sun (Anor), last fruit of the tree Laurelin (if I remember correctly). Ariel had assistants in this task.

It could be that the Secret Flame of Anor is, in Aman, a group of Maiar whose taks is to tend and help Ariel carrying the sun. That could have been one of Gandalf duties before coming to ME, so the sentence could mean that he was skilled in power and handling sacred fires, thus capable of confronting another Maiar-Balrog.

I agree with others. The title that Gandalf gives himself seem to be something that a Balrog would understand and fear, probably something related to times before the rings were forged. I do not think that the elven rings, created for healing and beauty, had much power over a Balrog, but a servant of the Sun, who drives dispair into the hearts of the evil-ones, might. 

Regards. Elanor2.


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## BluestEye

Very beautiful, Elanor2!
I take that one.

BluestEye


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## JanitorofAngmar

*Huh???*

O.K.

I am way out of my league here cause I never read the Sil. But what is this stuff about the moria Balrog serving Sauron? Is there not a point in the FOTR where Gandalf says something to the effect of:

...Not all things evil are servents of Sauron [referring here to the Balrog] although they may know of him...some are much older than him and...have thier own malice...or something..

I don't have the books handy so I can't look it up right now.

Anyone else recognise this terrible butchering of a quote?

JoA


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## Grond

*Re: Huh???*



> _Originally posted by JanitorofAngmar _
> *O.K.
> 
> I am way out of my league here cause I never read the Sil. But what is this stuff about the moria Balrog serving Sauron? Is there not a point in the FOTR where Gandalf says something to the effect of:
> 
> ...Not all things evil are servents of Sauron [referring here to the Balrog] although they may know of him...some are much older than him and...have thier own malice...or something..
> 
> I don't have the books handy so I can't look it up right now.
> 
> Anyone else recognise this terrible butchering of a quote?
> 
> JoA *


Many of the evil things were created by and subservient to Melkor, the "Real" Dark Lord to whom Sauron was merely a man-servant. And I will disagree that the Balrog would be subservient to Sauron. The army of Balrogs reported directly to Melkor and I am not sure would recognize anyone elses claim of overlordship. Sauron was Melkor's Lt. but didn't control the Balrogs or the Wurms (dragons). Sauron had his own army and his own fortress to the East of Angband, which is outlined in the Sil (which I don't have in front of me.) Also, Gothmog, was High Captain of the Angmar, where as Sauron was only Lt. 

That is confusing as in the Sil it states that second only to Melkor in evil was Gorthaur the Cruel (Sauron). Anybody got any ideas?


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## Feanor

Maybe Sauron was 2nd to Melkor in evil and even power. He was definitely the most cunning and malicious of his servants. Perhaps recognizing Sauron's great potential, Melkor distrusted him and purposely kept him in a lower rank than Gothmog and away from the main HQ at Angband.

Some other misinfo in the previous posts:

Gandalf said there are 'older and fouler things in the depths..' but never did he say it was older than Sauron.

Also, Yavanna did create the 2 trees but it was Varda (aka Elbereth) who filled them w light (not the flame imperishable). This light was of such beauty that it was not even in her power to EVER again create such light for a part of her power went into them (much like Sauron and the One Ring).

Also, Feanor's silmarils were not filled w the light of the dying trees. They were filled w the light of the LIVING trees in all their majesty and glory. So great were these jewels that no mortal hand could grasp them. The light of Earendil I believe has its source in the light from a Silmaril. 

I don't know how the lights of the lamps (v long ago; Grond may remember- Grond was it you who struck down the lamps?)compare to the light of the trees but I think the trees' light was the greater.

I hope I didn't go too off topic but I hate seeing misinfo posted as it can be v misleading to newbies.


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## JanitorofAngmar

*Aaahhhh!*

And once again Grond "knocks the door down!"

Thank you for that straigtening out!


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## Rian

I love threads like this. There are so many possibilities and viewpoints regarding Gandalf's words. At first, I thought that he was talking about the elven ring. I'm beginning to lean towards the belief that he was refering to himself as a maia of fire.


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## gil-estel

He refers to the Flame Imperishible-ie the one created by Eru and sought by Morgoth. Hes basically saying i work for Eru so u ain't gonna win this one


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## gaffer

gil-estel is DEFINITELY correct. i'm going to look through my tolkien reference books, because i'm positive that i read a quote saying that it's true.


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## Eonwe

Some great replies to this thread! My 2 cents:

1) The key point (I think) is that to the Balrog, Gandalf maybe really did just look like a man. I.e. he was put into the body of a man, and therefore perhaps (I am guessing) the Balrog didn't notice his spirit side (like Frodo noticed Glorfindel after putting on the ring). So Gandalf was trying to let him know he was in for a fight?

2) Gandalf did say that the nameless things were older than Sauron and that Sauron did not know them: "Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he." --TT The White Rider. This to me is a troubling passage, except if you take it like some people take Bombadil, a spirit that is not a Maia or Vala?? Wierd.

3) Morgoth held Utumno and Sauron led the vangaurd at Angband. Although I agree that there is some written evidence of Gothmog being above Sauron, I think there are many places in the book where Sauron was #2 to Morgoth. Certainly in cruelty?

4) There is a reference somewhere to how Sauron might have used the dragon of Erebor to terrible effect. I think the same applies to the Balrog. I think that eventually Sauron would have forcefully "persuaded" the Balrog to fight with him. (anyone who could persuade Smaug might have a chance with a Balrog?). Just conjecture. Perhaps the Balrog in Sauron's mind was meant to lead the charge against Lorien with the forces of Dol Guldur. But I would agree that it would not necessarily be subservient to Sauron.

Fortunately the dragon and the Balrog were not a part of Sauron's plans at the final battle, thanks to Gandalf's work! 

5) The light of Earendil (Venus) is a Silmaril.

My question is: why did Gandalf make him stop at the bridge? Was he afraid they would not escape? Does the fact that the Balrog fell answer the question that Balrogs do not have wings (HAHAHHAA)


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## Grond

> _Originally posted by Feanor _
> *Maybe Sauron was 2nd to Melkor in evil and even power. He was definitely the most cunning and malicious of his servants. Perhaps recognizing Sauron's great potential, Melkor distrusted him and purposely kept him in a lower rank than Gothmog and away from the main HQ at Angband.
> 
> Some other misinfo in the previous posts:
> 1) Gandalf said there are 'older and fouler things in the depths..' but never did he say it was older than Sauron.
> 2) Also, Yavanna did create the 2 trees but it was Varda (aka Elbereth) who filled them w light (not the flame imperishable). This light was of such beauty that it was not even in her power to EVER again create such light for a part of her power went into them (much like Sauron and the One Ring).
> 3) Also, Feanor's silmarils were not filled w the light of the dying trees. They were filled w the light of the LIVING trees in all their majesty and glory. So great were these jewels that no mortal hand could grasp them.
> 4) The light of Earendil I believe has its source in the light from a Silmaril.
> 5) I don't know how the lights of the lamps (v long ago; Grond may remember- Grond was it you who struck down the lamps?)compare to the light of the trees but I think the trees' light was the greater.
> 
> I hope I didn't go too off topic but I hate seeing misinfo posted as it can be v misleading to newbies. *


Okay...real quick

1) Already quoted that evil things older than Sauron inhabited the Earth. Another enigma of JRRT that something could be older than a Maia (since they helped in the Ainulindale and sang the song which created Arda).
2) Yavanna created the trees and imbued them with light. You will not find in the Silmarillion where it speaks of Varda having any influence over Telperion and Laurelin. You are thinking of the lamps of Arda.
3) Agreed. Light of the Living Trees that later died at the hands of Melkor and Ungoliant.
4) Earendil's light source is Beren and Luthien's silmaril that is bound to Earendil's head. (How cool is it for Elrond to watch his father sail the heavens every night??? Too cool!!!!)
5) Lamps came first and Yavanna wrought them and Varda filled them with light. They were located in Middle-earth during the period that the Vala dwelt there before they established Valinor.

Whew! Did that answer them all???? And I haven't contributed anything to the thread.


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## Feanor

1) Already quoted that evil things older than Sauron inhabited the Earth. Another enigma of JRRT that something could be older than a Maia (since they helped in the Ainulindale and sang the song which created Arda). 
2) Yavanna created the trees and imbued them with light. You will not find in the Silmarillion where it speaks of Varda having any influence over Telperion and Laurelin. You are thinking of the lamps of Arda. 
3) Agreed. Light of the Living Trees that later died at the hands of Melkor and Ungoliant. 
4) Earendil's light source is Beren and Luthien's silmaril that is bound to Earendil's head. (How cool is it for Elrond to watch his father sail the heavens every night??? Too cool!!!!) 
5) Lamps came first and Yavanna wrought them and Varda filled them with light. They were located in Middle-earth during the period that the Vala dwelt there before they established Valinor. 

1)OK, I can't find that quote, the one I see is from the chpt Journey in the Dark where he says, "there are older and fouler things than orcs in the deep places of the world". But if he did say 'older than Sauron' this could be possible since in the Ainulindule it states that the Valar came first and then, a bit later, the Maia were called by Manwe to help as servants in the creation of Arda. Sauron was initially a Maia of Aule. So it is possible that his arrival on Arda was AFTER some things already existent on Arda. This coming of the Maia was after Melkor claimed the world as his own and maybe Melkor already created beings at that time.

2)I'm totally wrong here, Yes it does say that Yavanna created the trees and their light. Although Varda did collect the dews and rain from the trees in great vats like shining lakes. 

5) You are indeed a mighty lore master Grond, but in this you are wrong- it was AULE who wrought the lamps and subsequently filled w light by Varda. 

Also, in the section 'Of the Enemies' it states that Sauron was greatest in might of the servants of Melkor.


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## Grond

I stand corrected.... I was reading the Sil way too fast. The lamps were indeed a creation of Aule at the bidding of his mate Yavanna. Whew. But two out of three ain't bad. Isn't there a song to that effect. 

And the quote we seek is from The Two Towers, Chapter 5, _The White Rider_. Gandalf is describing his encounter with the Balrog to Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas and he states, "Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report ot darken the light of day..."

BTW, what is this thread about anyway?


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## BluestEye

Great! Things are getting clearer!  
By the way, Eonwe, actualy people say that Tom Bombadil was a Maia after all...

BluestEye


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## Grond

Darn BluestEye, I keep trying to agree with you and then can't find a way. In the Letter's of JRRT, he clearly states that he never envisioned Tom as a Maia. He stated that Tom was an enigma that was a kind of unexplainable occurence in the book. He goes on to detail that Tom was an earlier (nonMiddle-earth) creation of his (actually I think his child's doll was named Tom Bombadil) and that he wanted to find a place in the novel to "fit him in". I'm sure Cian (who is very up to date on the letters) will correct me. I will send him a PM directing to this link so he may add any clarification.

I actually found them in another post from Mike B. Here are the quotes by the author.

quote:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"As a story, I think it is good that there should be a lot of things unexplained (especially if an explanation actually exists); 
... And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally)." 
(The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, p. 174) 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom was originally a doll (with blue jacket and yellow boots) owned by Tolkien's son Michael. The doll inspired a story fragment, such as he often invented for his children's amusement. That fragment was in turn the basis for the poem "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil",
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
source: www.tolkien.cro.net


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## Eonwe

Geez, childhood doll huh? How much different would the story have been if it had been Winnie the Pooh? "Oh high there Goldberry, could I have a small smakerel of honey, hmm?"


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## BluestEye

Thank you for the clarification, Grond.  
I never read the "Letters". I always thought Tom was a Maia. It is said so in many books and Tolkien "encyclopedias". But this is the reason I wrote: "People say", and not "Tolkien say".
It is quite amusing that the Ring doesn't affect Tom when he holds it and put it on his finger. It shows in a way that he is not from that world, and (taking what you said) even not from that reality. He is from another universe, like a link between Middle-Earth and our world. I like this idea.

BluestEye


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## Arathin

Actually, BluestEye, I believe that no such connection is needed, or even exists. You see, Tolkien based his books, in large part, on World War Two. He wrote them based on our own world. Albeit, a different "dimension". I think Tom Bombadil was just a "for fun" charactor. I write books, and love throwing them in because it starts these kinds of conversations. What do the rest of you think?


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## Grond

Welcome Arathin. Hail and well met. 

Your comments concerning WWII are likely to start a hailstorm of debate on the forum as the author repeatedly denied your very statement. He always categorically denied writing allegory as you'll see if you do a search on allegory. There are numerous threads where that very subject has been under intense debate in the past. Look one up and swing away.


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## Arathin

I didn't mean to start a riot, but the introduction to my TLoR does say things to that affect. I am new and have almost no clue what has happened in the past here.


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## Lorien

so Bombadil wasnt a Maia???then what was he??and if he wasnt something "special" how was he portrayed to be so strong and "magical" etc......


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## Cian

> _Originally posted by Ragnarok _
> ... cause I thought Amon is sun. As in Amon-sul (Weathertop)



S. _amon_ means "hill" and is used in hill & "mountain names".


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## Grond

Lorien, he was portrayed as someone strong and "magical" because he was strong and "magical". There are beings in the works that we don't know the origins of such as Ungoliant. She too was strong and "magical", weaving webs of deceit through out the forests north of "The Girdle of Melian". So, Tom is not the only enigma in the works. I feel Ungoliant is as big an enigma as Tom.


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## Feanor

I dont know what exactly Tom was, probably a Maia, but I don't think he could've wielded the Ring without effect outside of his realm of the Old Forest/Barrow downs.


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## Grond

> _Originally posted by Grond _
> *Darn BluestEye, I keep trying to agree with you and then can't find a way. In the Letter's of JRRT, he clearly states that he never envisioned Tom as a Maia. He stated that Tom was an enigma that was a kind of unexplainable occurence in the book. He goes on to detail that Tom was an earlier (nonMiddle-earth) creation of his (actually I think his child's doll was named Tom Bombadil) and that he wanted to find a place in the novel to "fit him in". I'm sure Cian (who is very up to date on the letters) will correct me. I will send him a PM directing to this link so he may add any clarification.
> 
> I actually found them in another post from Mike B. Here are the quotes by the author.
> 
> quote:
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> "As a story, I think it is good that there should be a lot of things unexplained (especially if an explanation actually exists);
> ... And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally)."
> (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, p. 174)
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> quote:
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Tom was originally a doll (with blue jacket and yellow boots) owned by Tolkien's son Michael. The doll inspired a story fragment, such as he often invented for his children's amusement. That fragment was in turn the basis for the poem "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil",
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> source: www.tolkien.cro.net
> 
> *


Feanor, read this post again. It is clear that the author did not intend for Tom to be classified as anything.


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## Thorin

Now that I've distanced myself from the ridiculous movie forum, I can get back to talking about the stuff that really matters: Tolkien!!

Grond, the initial post was the explanation of Gandalf's words to the Balrog. Udun is not only the area in Mordor, but the name fro Utumno, Morgoth's realm.

And yes, as was stated, there is no living thing that is older than Sauron as a Maia, but in terms of his being on ME, Treebeard and other nameless things under the earth, are older then he is. He did after all, take two different bodily forms on his time there.

It is probably easy to think of Bombadil as a Maia because he says that he was around before the first acorn and before the elves went west (which was after they awoke). Considering that the Elves were Eru's first creation, the only explanation to Bombadil was that he was either a Valar or Maia. Tolkien doesn't say either way, but says that he is an enigma.


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## Feanor

He could be Eru...


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## Arathin

True, he could be, but I doubt that for some reason.


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## Lantarion

*Woah, hold yer horses!*

I don't want this to become another Tom B.- thread: we have about three of them already, all dealing with and asking the same questions. I suggest all who are interested in Tolkien's Enigma go to these already existing threads.


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## Eonwe

hear hear Ponti! 

(Translation: yes I agree)
(Translation: yo cuzI'mdownwithdat)
(Translation: no mo' TB stuff)


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## Arathin

Hear hear Ponti!

Hear hear Eonwe!

ie see above for definions


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## Erestor Arcamen

I moved this to LOTR from the archives because I thought this was an interesting discussion.



> " You cannot pass. I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the *flame of Anor*. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun. Go back to the shadow! You cannot pass."



As the OP stated, should this have been *flame of Aman*? Anor is Elvish for Sun but other than that, I don't see why Gandalf would reference this flame?

Or maybe it should have been *Anar*, which is what the Vanyar referred to the Sun as. This is translated to The Fire-Golden.


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## Miguel

Erestor Arcamen said:


> I moved this to LOTR from the archives because I thought this was an interesting discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> As the OP stated, should this have been *flame of Aman*? Anor is Elvish for Sun but other than that, I don't see why Gandalf would reference this flame?
> 
> Or maybe it should have been *Anar*, which is what the Vanyar referred to the Sun as. This is translated to The Fire-Golden.



My take on this is that _"Servant of the secret fire" _means servant of the flame imperishable, but "_Wielder of the flame of Anor" _is still a mystery to me. Indeed it might be be related to Aman, maybe it has something to do with the forging/sorcery techniques that Celebrimbo used to craft it?.


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## Ithilethiel

I recall having read that Tolkien spoke of, _The Secret Fire _as a sort of gift from Eru, a soul or animating spirit which is indwelt in his creation. So in a sense I've always considered _The Secret Fire _to be a kind of Holy Spirit. As such, it has something to do with the knowledge of good vs evil. Freewill in a sense. Morgorth's servants were corrupted as was all of his creation and therefore possessed no such freewill but the Ainur, the Childrin of Ilúvatar and Aulë's dwarves (once granted by Eru) did possess it.

So I think what Gandalf is saying is, "I'm one of the good guys, a Maia like you but unlike you I possess within me the light of Eru so I am unbeatable."


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## Inziladun

Miguel said:


> My take on this is that _"Servant of the secret fire" _means servant of the flame imperishable, but "_Wielder of the flame of Anor" _is still a mystery to me. Indeed it might be be related to Aman, maybe it has something to do with the forging/sorcery techniques that Celebrimbo used to craft it?.


Perhaps Gandalf is saying he wields the power of the Sun, and can channel its flame, much like he did with the trolls. At the first rising of the Sun all the servants of Morgoth fled from it. This Balrog has not seen the Sun in ages, so it seems the power of the Sun would be specially effective.

The Secret Fire to me is a soul, in the beginning the spirits of the Valar shaped or created the many elements, and mastered them. Elves, Men and Dwarves were given bodies, and became the masters of their own lives.


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## Miguel

Inziladun said:


> Perhaps Gandalf is saying he wields the power of the Sun, and can channel its flame, much like he did with the trolls. At the first rising of the Sun all the servants of Morgoth fled from it. This Balrog has not seen the Sun in ages, so it seems the power of the Sun would be specially effective.
> 
> The Secret Fire to me is a soul, in the beginning the spirits of the Valar shaped or created the many elements, and mastered them. Elves, Men and Dwarves were given bodies, and became the masters of their own lives.



Spiritu sancti. 

So, was the Anor/Anar thing just a grammar mistake?. Does he really mean the sun?.


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## Inziladun

Miguel said:


> Spiritu sancti.
> 
> So, was the Anor/Anar thing just a grammar mistake?. Does he really mean the sun?.


I do not know, but I doubt Gandalf (or Tolkien) would be making mistakes there. I was only thinking back to the older tales, the Sun was born from the fruit of Laurelin, so it is a Holy Light, unlike the flames of Melkor. But I think Gandalf would only use such force in his greatest need.


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## Miguel

Inziladun said:


> I do not know, but I doubt Gandalf (or Tolkien) would be making mistakes there. I was only thinking back to the older tales, the Sun was born from the fruit of Laurelin, so it is a Holy Light, unlike the flames of Melkor. But I think Gandalf would only use such force in his greatest need.



Ok so i just realized that Anor means "The sun" in Sindarin. Yeah i'm a little slow sorry. Putting the Belryg aside, the flames of Melko, i think did not emanate from him, i believe he just used them just like he used ice and every other matter in Arda.


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## Inziladun

Miguel said:


> Ok so i just realized that Anor means "The sun" in Sindarin. Yeah i'm a little slow sorry. Putting the Belryg aside, the flames of Melko, i think did not emanate from him, i believe he just used them just like he used ice and every other matter in Arda.


No need to be sorry, and as to the flames of Melkor, I was in a sense referring to the Balrogs, the fire-demons. Melkor set all the world ablaze, before ever the stars were kindled, a jealous and hateful fire was his device.


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## Miguel

Inziladun said:


> No need to be sorry, and as to the flames of Melkor, I was in a sense referring to the Balrogs, the fire-demons. Melkor set all the world ablaze, before ever the stars were kindled, a jealous and hateful fire was his device.



Yes.


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