# Olwe refuses aid



## Confusticated (Jul 23, 2003)

> _From Published Sil,Of the Flight of the Noldor_
> 
> But the Teleri were unmoved by aught that he could say. They were grieved indeed at the going of their kinsfolk and long friends, but would rather dissuade them than aid them; and no ship would they lend, nor help in the building, against the will of the Valar.



Do you think Olwe handled the Noldor in the best way possible?


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## Celebthôl (Jul 23, 2003)

Yes. Were they/Was he, to forsee the Kinslaying? I believe that Owlë was just acting for the good of all Elve-kind, and having never seen a kinslaying or anything like that, then yes, he treated the Noldor properly, and why should he give his boats away?


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## Confusticated (Jul 23, 2003)

I think it is hard to answer because we do not know the details.

Did Olwe at any point know that he could do nothing to stop the Noldor from retruning in haste to Middle-earth? Did he know this before the Noldor started to take the ships? If so, he would know they must take the Helcaraxe being without ships. In this case, he might have decided to let the Noldor use his ships, rather than go off to die in Helcaraxe. But if he thought they would all die in Middle-earth anyhow, why bother getting them safely to Middle-earth?

But, why should he have thought the Noldor would be ruined in Middle-earth? Shouldn't he have thought the Valar would eventually aid them against Morgoth?

And if he did not think it, why not?

Had there been no kinslaying would the Valar have aided the Noldor? I don't see why they shouldn't have. They had already tried to hunt him down earlier.

In this case, to Olwe, I think it should have looked like the Noldor (without his aid) would have gone off to die facing the Helcaraxe before the Valar got around to taking care of Morgoth. Or, that with ships, the Noldor would safely reach Middle-earth and be there when the Valar at last go after Morgoth again, and then the world would be a safe place and he would eventually recover his ships.


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## The-Elf-Herself (Jul 23, 2003)

Yeah, Olwe would have 'eventually' recovered his ships, but I think your underestimate the way the Teleri felt about their swanships. They prized them above all else and it is said that never again could they make their like. It is somewhat similar to the way Feanor felt about the Silmarils. Consider it from their perspective: they could give these priceless vessels to their kindred(whom they believed to be in the wrong) and perhaps never see them again or they could strongly caution them against it. I think Olwe knew of the unrest of the Noldor, but he wasn't aware of the depth of it, so he believed it the prudent course to deny them aid. He was only acting according to what he knew, any sort of kin-slaying was unheard of.


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## Confusticated (Jul 23, 2003)

But _if_ he thought the Noldor would go without ships, he would have known they'd see great danger with the Helcaraxe. I understand the ships ment as ment to the Teleri as did Feanor's silmarils, but if not for Feanor's hot-temper and distrust of the Valar, souldn't he have shared the light of those jewels to save the trees? 

There does come a point, when your treasure is worth less than something else. Maybe the treasures of Feanor were worth more than the light of the trees to him, but were the Teleri ships worth more than Noldor lives? From Olwe's point of view and only _if_ he knew the Noldor would go regardless of his counsil, and considering Olwe was not like Feanor, is there not a chance that he maybe should have let them use the ships?


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## YayGollum (Jul 23, 2003)

Do I think that this Olwe elf handled the Noldor types in the best way possible? Why would I think that? I read that The Silmarillion book. I know what happened. If the Olwe elf had decided to just hand the boats over, people wouldn't hate Feanor as much.


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## The-Elf-Herself (Jul 23, 2003)

First of all, I fully 'get' why Feanor wouldn't hand over the Silmarils in the face of the dead trees. It was the Valar's fault in a sense that they were destroyed in the first place, for they were the ones who couldn't see through Melkor's lies and let him run around loose. That's just my personal opinion though, let's not go there, that's another topic entirely.

The Noldor certainly felt the ships were worth more than the Teleri lives. I think that if Olwe was more aware of the desperation and the unrest of the Noldor, he might have handed over the ships, but he wasn't and didn't. The Teleri were the singers, the poets; I'm not sure they could even understand fully the wrath and the wilfulness of the Noldor. So I think he handled in the best way he knew how.


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## Confusticated (Apr 17, 2005)

YayGollum said:


> Do I think that this Olwe elf handled the Noldor types in the best way possible? Why would I think that? I read that The Silmarillion book. I know what happened. If the Olwe elf had decided to just hand the boats over, people wouldn't hate Feanor as much.



Would you like Feanor less if no one hated him?


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## YayGollum (Apr 17, 2005)

Garn! Evil logic!  oh well. No, I probably wouldn't. I just wouldn't have as many opportunities to have fun with defending the poor guy. He would not be so high up on my list of favorites, but he would still be up there somewhere just because he has such an original personality (compared to every other elf). Besides, there are other things about poor Feanor that most people hate.


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## hob (Apr 18, 2005)

Olwe had to make a decision based on the arguments before him. At worst, the Noldor may have appeared as children throwing a tantrum; at best, as siblings with a cause.

Either way, I believe that he was distanced enough from the passion of the Noldor to realise:

a) Starting a war against the most powerful, evil valar isn't a good idea.

b) Starting the war against the wishes of the remaining, still powerful Valar wasn't a good idea.

c) Taking his beautiful boats away for any reason doesn't sound like too good an idea.

Essentially, what state would the Elves be in if Olwe had won over the Noldor. Sure, it's not much of a story, but I think he handled them as best he could under the circumstances. Being stuck between the Gods and angry relatives is never a nice thing...


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## Thorondor_ (May 16, 2005)

Why not send his ships away, together with females and children, until the noldor changed their mind going to M-E with the ships? 



> Starting a war against the most powerful, evil valar isn't a good idea


The war started waay before the elves appeared 


> .
> It was the Valar's fault in a sense that they were destroyed in the first place, for they were the ones who couldn't see through Melkor's lies and let him run around loose


The Valar had no concept of evil, that's how they came to trust Melkor. Are you saying it's Eru's fault?
And I don't think it's fair to blame the departing noldor, as a whole, for the kinslaying, it was mainly Feanor's fault.


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