# Pre-Sauron Mordor?



## Anamatar IV (Sep 17, 2002)

What was Mordor before Sauron came into it? Before it was evil what was it?


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## Mithlond (Sep 17, 2002)

I dont think much is known about Mordor before Sauron came there. Infact as far as i know there is no name written for that region before Sauron inhabited it.

I'd imagine it was still pretty much a wasteland much like it was after Sauron came there, as Orodruin was there before Sauron, and probably would have caused some damage to the surrounding land etc.

Other than that, not much else can be found out i dont think.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Sep 17, 2002)

I would say that it was actually probably a very pretty place at one time before Sauron decided to inhabit the area given the fact that in the south-eastern corner of the land is the Sea of Nurnen out of which flows four rivers. Only the Plateau of Gorgoroth is devoid of water, but it is still not all that distant from the surrounding waters. I could easily see Sauron picking a very beautiful place to make his abode as his mentor and master (Morgoth) had a habit of taking anything beautiful that the other Valar made and throwing it down to turn it into completely the opposite of what it had been. I can only imagine the pupil following the teacher's example. I can easily see him taking a pleasant mountain and turning it into a roaring volcano just for the sheer pleasure of it.


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## Ariana Undomiel (Sep 18, 2002)

If I have my Middle Earth history down correctly, I think that Middle Earth was created by the Valar's songs that came from Iluvatar. Therefore, I think that before Melkor and Sauron came to darken it, Mordor probably had a different name and was just as beautiful as the rest of Middle Earth.

~Ariana


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## Mithlond (Sep 18, 2002)

But the mountain of fire was in Mordor before Sauron came there, he didn't make it into a volcano.

He chose that very area of Mordor to inhabit for the sole reason that Orodruin was there, which he would use to aid his sorcery.

Okay i can probably see the area around the sea of Nurnen has being more of a nicer place much like other regions of Middle-earth.
But around Orodruin and Gorgoroth, i think it wouldn't have been as nice.


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Mithlond _
> *But the mountain of fire was in Mordor before Sauron came there, he didn't make it into a volcano.
> 
> He chose that very area of Mordor to inhabit for the sole reason that Orodruin was there, which he would use to aid his sorcery.
> ...



I agree with this view.In addition,Sauron also chose Mordor because it was fenced from the North,West and South alike and was thus better suited for war.But the primary reason for choosing Mordor as his abode would of course be Orodruin.


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## gate7ole (Sep 18, 2002)

The Atlas of Middle Earth has maps of the whole world for all Ages.
The map for the First Age, has a magnificent detail. There is no Mordor. East of the White Mountains there is a huge inland sea, named Helcar, which was probably caused by the downlfall of the Lamps. It covers all the lands up to Cuivienen.
After the War of Wrath and the destruction of the west part of ME, Mordor was created. So Sauron must have found the land pretty empty when he got there.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Sep 18, 2002)

Hmmm... I would not put it past Sauron to raise up Orodruin for himself. Just my thought though. I am still of the opinion that Mordor was devoid of any unpleasant geographical features (i.e. Orodruin) before the coming of Sauron. I cannot see Orodruin spouting flame etc. before being inhabited by evil. Perhaps the mountain was there, but as a beautiful mountain and not as a volcano.


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## Mithlond (Sep 18, 2002)

> 'There above the valley of Gorgoroth was built his fortress vast and strong, Barad-dur, the Dark Tower; and there was a fiery mountain in that land that the elves named Orodruin. *Indeed for that reason Sauron had set there his dwelling long before, for he used the fire that welled there from the heart of the earth in his sorceries and his forgings...*'


From - _The Silmarillion - Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age_

I think this clearly states that mount Doom was there before Sauron came.


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## Anamatar IV (Sep 18, 2002)

*ding* mithlond wins this round. But someone had to live there before sauron. Was it a part of harad?


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## Nenya Evenstar (Sep 19, 2002)

Yup, Mithlond wins.  Thanks a million for your imput! But I still argue that something evil had to have made the mountain spout fire in the first place. I do not think that any of the good Valar would have made such a mountain. I guess it was Melkor, and Orodruin must just be one of the left-over fruits of the Valar wars in the very beginning of Ea.


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## Flame of Anor (Sep 19, 2002)

Ok, this is what i have gleened off of the Encyclopedia of Arda site:


> After the destruction of the strongholds of evil in the north of Middle-earth at the end of the First Age, Sauron fled southwards seeking new lands. At the end of the first millennium of the Second Age, he chose a land walled by mountains, and there built his great fortress of Barad-dûr. After Sauron settled there, the land became known as Mordor (the Black Land) - no record of an earlier name for this region exists.


Here is some more history of Mordor.


> The History of Mordor
> 
> c. II 1000 to II 3262
> Mordor is not mentioned in the histories of Middle-earth before the end of the first millennium of the Second Age1, when Sauron chose it as his dwelling place. While its natural defences must have influenced his decision, we are told that the main reason for his choice was Orodruin, the great volcano that lay in the central regions of the Plateau of Gorgoroth, and which Sauron used in his sorcery, including the forging of the One Ring.


Although this does not say anything of the volcano in Mordor. I would like to say that a volcano, in itself, is not evil. It is what can be done with that volcano to result in evil.

-Flame


I got all of this info from the Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm under the "M" section.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Sep 20, 2002)

An in-active volcano is not evil when it is in-active, but an active volcano is quite evil in my mind. I do not believe that any of the Valar would have created something which spewed fire and caused destruction to the lands about it. All I am saying is that some evil force (presumably Melkor, as he was the one in the beginning who caused havoc among the creations of the Valar) was probably the creator of Orodruin in the first place as the Valar tried to make everything beautiful and without such destroying capabilities. Also, an in-active volcano had to, at one time, be active and so was evil.


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## Anamatar IV (Sep 20, 2002)

i was just thinking the same thing. Melkor maimed all of the valars creations. Maybe orodruin was a beautiful snow capped moutain in the beginning but melkor made it spew fire. Does it say any where anything about this?


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## Nenya Evenstar (Sep 20, 2002)

Not specifically about Orodruin, but the Sil. does say this:



> Yet it is told among the Eldar that the Valar endeavoured ever, in depite of Melkor, to rule the Earth and to prepare it for the coming of the Firstborn; and they built lands and Melkor destroyed them; valleys they delved and Melkor raised them up; mountains they carved and Melkor threw them down; seas they hollowed and Melkor spilled them; and naught might have peace or come to lasting growth, for as surely as the Valar began a labour so would Melkor undo it or corrupt it.



This happened during the first battle between the Valar and Melkor.


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## Anamatar IV (Sep 20, 2002)

hmm. That actually contradicts what youre saying. If the valar raised the mountain melkor threw it down? Or maybe mt. doom began as one of those pits.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Sep 20, 2002)

I'm unable to see where I contradicted myself... I do not believe that the passage is saying that Melkor literally threw down every mountain that the Valar made. I believe that it is simply saying that Melkor destroyed or corrupted anything he could get his hands on which the Valar made. This does not mean that he had to throw down _ every _ mountain that was put up. He could have corrupted Orodruin, made it on his own so as to spew fire and lay waste to the things which surrounded it; or he could have, as you said, made it out of a pit.


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## Flame of Anor (Sep 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Anamatar IV _
> *i was just thinking the same thing. Melkor maimed all of the valars creations. Maybe orodruin was a beautiful snow capped moutain in the beginning but melkor made it spew fire. Does it say any where anything about this? *


Here is an interesting thought..........That Mordor could have been the representation of The Udying Lands in ME. I say this because Valinor was a place surrounded by mountains on all sides and a very tall mountain in the middle. And if you compare maps of Mordor with that of Valinor, they are very similar in some respects. Just a thought.

-Flame


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## Nahar (Sep 20, 2002)

i cant remember where it said this, maybe in return of the king or some guide to middle earth type book or something, but it said that Morodor always was a "barren wastleland of ash, rock, and darkness." Sauron's presence there only made it worse.


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## Mithlond (Sep 20, 2002)

If we think of Middle-earth as an _ancient time_ of our own world (Tolkien liked this idea), then a volcano, such as Orodruin, is just a natural occurance.

A volcanic eruption occur's to blow off a little steam in the earth's core, it has to occur or i dont know what will happen. (the earth explodes?  )


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## Nenya Evenstar (Sep 20, 2002)

> A volcanic eruption occur's to blow off a little steam in the earth's core, it has to occur or i dont know what will happen. (the earth explodes? )



True in our world, but what about in Tolkien's? The two earths could be made out of totally different substances.


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## Khamul (Sep 20, 2002)

> Therefore, after a time he made war upon the Exiles, before they should take root. Orodruin burst once more into flame, and was named anew in Gondor Amon Amarth, Mount Doom.



This to me is saying that Sauron had the power to ignite Orodruin into flame. Thus, he could have corrupted it to his purpose, and I believe he could have caused it to be a volcano in the first place.



> The Westron name were as a rule translations of older names: as Rivendell, Hoarwell, Silverlode, Langstrand, The Enemy, the Dark Tower. Some differed in meaning: as Mount Doom for Orodruin 'burning mountain'.


I take this to mean that which was originally a mountain is now in flame... 

Well, I guess information can be oriented to whatever stance one wants to take.


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