# The Common Tongue and Latin



## 1stvermont (Jan 31, 2020)

I am not a student of Latin, but is there any similarity to the "common tongue" used in LOTR and Latin in the medieval west?


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## Olorgando (Jan 31, 2020)

My guess is that there is just not enough of "original Westron" to form an opinion. JRRT only gives a few words, mostly names, in Appendix F section II "On Translation". And volume 12 of HoMe, "The Peoples of Middle-earth", while containing in Part One the chapter II "The Appendix on Languages" running to about 65 pages, also yields little to nothing on Westron vocabulary.


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## 1stvermont (Feb 1, 2020)

It turns out it was nothing but english.



The Common Tongue and Latin - The Hall of Fire


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## Elthir (Feb 1, 2020)

Well, again, to be clear -- ' cause nobody reads links 

Westron in not English, and Gando is correct that there are very few examples of Westron, especially considering (as Gando also noted) that some examples floating around the web today hail from a _draft_ version of Appendix F, not the version Tolkien himself published. I just posted (at another site) that Frodo's actual Westron name _Maura_ is one of these draft names.

Were these HOME examples rejected? Or did they just fall out because Tolkien reduced the length of Appendix F "On Translation"? And if the latter, as might be argued, would Tolkien have changed his mind/niggled with stuff given more time to work on a hypothetical revised/_enlarged_ Appendix F (as it was revised in some measure in the 1960s)?

I do not know.


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## Elhath (Feb 1, 2020)

A comparison of Westron and (written) Catalan items, examining the sound-combinational possibilities:

W *adûni* — C _s'adoni_
W *balc* — C _parc_
W *basto* — C _bastó_
W *dramar* — C _bramar_
W *gamba* — C _gamba_
W *hlotho* — C _tothom_
W *kastar* — C _tastar_
W *krassa* — C _trossa_
W *labingi* — C _ralinga_;_ laringi_ (pronounced "-njy, -ndgy")
W *lêva* — C _meva_; _gleva_
W *phâre* — C _frare_
W *pûta* — C _puta_
W *sôval* — C _oval_
W *tapuc* — C _capot_;_ maluc_
W *tung* — C _fang_; _fong_
W *tûph* — C _baf_
W *zîranda* — C _bufanda_

Of course it should be noted that the place of the word-stress (not to mention the syllable-length!) apparently differs between the two languages — and there are other Westron words and morphemes which remind a linguist of rather some other language (relevant to Europe / European antiquity), e.g. #*nâtha* which firstly brings to mind either Old Continental West-Germanic or Sanskrit, and #*batta* which has the double T found in Italian, Finnish, etc. but remains encountered by me even in written Catalan.


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## Elthir (Feb 1, 2020)

See, this is why it's good to have actual linguists looking in!

Elhath, thanks for your very interesting post!


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## Olorgando (Feb 1, 2020)

Elthir said:


> Westron in not English, ...





Elhath said:


> A comparison of Westron and (written) Catalan items, ...





Elthir said:


> See, this is why it's good to have actual linguists looking in!


OK. guys, *your* thread. That thing resembling a sonic boom was probably me scramming out of here …


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## Olorgando (Feb 1, 2020)

Elthir said:


> Elhath, thanks for your very interesting post!


Besides your "cat-with-banker-clothes", do you, avatar-wise, also have an affinity for the "Vulpes" genus?


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## Miguel (Feb 1, 2020)

Elhath said:


> A comparison of Westron and (written) Catalan items, examining the sound-combinational possibilities:
> 
> W *adûni* — C _s'adoni_
> W *balc* — C _parc_
> ...



🤔


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## Elthir (Feb 2, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> Besides your "cat-with-banker-clothes", do you, avatar-wise, also have an affinity for the "Vulpes" genus?




Mona Lisa . . . should I answer?


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## Elhath (Feb 2, 2020)

Codex Regius (Andreas Möhn) conveys the following impression of Westron in his book _Words of Westernesse_ (page 85):

"While Adûnaic was attributed with 'a faintly Semitic flavour', Westron clearly resembles Germanic languages. In *G*[_uide to the_] *N*[_ames in the Lord of the Rings_], Tolkien confesses that the [Westron] word _sûza_ 'Shire' was inspired by an Old Norse and modern Icelandic expression _sýsla_; the 'Definite' mode of nouns, marked by a final _-t_ (_Sûza-t_ 'the Shire'), resembles similar phenomena in Swedish, etc."

Btw, _suza/sȕza _is an actual noun in Croatian, where it means "a teardrop".


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## Elthir (Feb 3, 2020)

As an aside: I consider the word *orc* (*ork*) a Westron Word.

But for examples: _Ardalambion_ and _Glǽmscrafu_ do not include this word in their Westron lists, and at the moment _Parf Edhellen_ and _Eldamo_ show Westron *orka* (Parf Edhellen cites PE17) -- although _Parf Edhellen_ also lists *orc* as Rohirric, based on_ The Return of the King_ (which I agree with).
I realize it's only a final vowel, and that PE17 is certainly Tolkienian . . .

. . . but Tolkien himself published *orc* in both _The Hobbit_ (especially the note added to the third edition) and _The Lord of the Rings_, and explained *orc* as a Common Speech word in his _Guide to Names_ for translators (here JRRT even writes that according to his own system, orc should be translated in the language of translation [as "goblin" in English], but asks that it be retained nonetheless [that is, retained where it appears in _The Lord of the Rings_]). And all this appears to agree with JRRT's late-ish note published in _Morgoth's Ring_: "Also the spelling of what, in the later more organized linguistic situation, must have been a Common Speech form of a word or group of similar words should be ork."

Granted, here Tolkien adds "or group of similar words", but still, in my opinion these sources taken together should leave us with *orc/ork* as an attested (and Tolkien-published) Westron word, also used by Hobbits (again, the note added to _The Hobbit_, third edition), and a Rohirric word (Appendix F) "Orc is the form of the name that other races had for this foul people as it was in the language of Rohan. In Sindarin it was orch. Related . . ." Here I note that this section deals with *orc, orch, uruk, snaga* . . . meaning *orc* is "lumped in" with words actually spoken in Middle-earth, not translations (this statement appears before Appendix F section II "On translation").

Erm, sorry, my "aside" got away from me a bit!


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## CirdanLinweilin (Feb 3, 2020)

Elthir said:


> As an aside: I consider the word *orc* (*ork*) a Westron Word.
> 
> But for examples: _Ardalambion_ and _Glǽmscrafu_ do not include this word in their Westron lists, and at the moment _Parf Edhellen_ and _Eldamo_ show Westron *orka* (Parf Edhellen cites PE17) -- although _Parf Edhellen_ also lists *orc* as Rohirric, based on_ The Return of the King_ (which I agree with).
> I realize it's only a final vowel, and that PE17 is certainly Tolkienian . . .
> ...


Did you find it?


XD


CL


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## Elthir (Feb 3, 2020)

Yep. It was right by my side


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## CirdanLinweilin (Feb 3, 2020)

Elthir said:


> Yep. It was right by my side


Noice.





CL


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## Olorgando (Feb 3, 2020)

Elthir said:


> Yep. It was right by my side


But where was Ando, for once when he could have been useful?!? 😬


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## Elthir (Feb 4, 2020)

Ando was hiding behind the g in Olorg


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## Olorgando (Feb 4, 2020)

Elthir said:


> Ando was hiding behind the g in Olorg


Oh great!

As a measure to alleviate my Internet paranoia, that was one thing, and one thing only:

an abysmal *failure! *

I might PM you about how you got your member name changed ...
wait, wasn't there some hitch to that, PMing you, too? 🤔


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## Erestor Arcamen (Feb 4, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> Oh great!
> 
> As a measure to alleviate my Internet paranoia, that was one thing, and one thing only:
> 
> ...



You can pm the admin to have your username changed. That's beyond my power


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## Olorgando (Feb 4, 2020)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> You can pm the admin to have your username changed. That's beyond my power


This is not the joke thread, I realize … 😜


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## CirdanLinweilin (Feb 4, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> Oh great!
> 
> As a measure to alleviate my Internet paranoia, that was one thing, and one thing only:
> 
> ...


That you unfortunately, and _hilariously For us..._

You walked_ right _in to.


CL


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## Olorgando (Feb 4, 2020)

CirdanLinweilin said:


> That you unfortunately, and _hilariously For us..._
> You walked_ right _in to.
> CL


Grinning as widely as the Cheshire Cat … 😄😁😆😂🤣🤪


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## NicolausVI (Feb 13, 2020)

1stvermont said:


> I am not a student of Latin, but is there any similarity to the "common tongue" used in LOTR and Latin in the medieval west?


I am extremely excited that you asked this question! The short answer; the common tongue in the Lord of the Rings, Westron, is English, which is why everyone spoke it. However, did Tolkien use and love Latin? Of course he did! Quenya, the original form of Sindarin, is an Elvish-Latin. It declines like Latin does and has gendered nouns. This is admitted by the man himself in _The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien_, number 144. In fact he talks about all his languages in this letter, and answers your very question! But he loved Latin. He was a devout Roman Catholic who went to daily Mass (a detail sorely missed in the new Tolkien movie; all Masses used to be celebrated in Latin only) and spoke Latin fluently. I wrote an essay about Latin and English, I will send it to you if you are interested in reading it (I can't attach it here). Studying Latin is totally worth it, and you know the alphabet and about half the words already! Also a master of Latin translated the Hobbit into Latin under the title _Hobbitus Ille_. You can find it on amazon.com. Don't forget to roll your _R_'s if you do start studying! There is also a free download of _The Letters of J.R.R.Tolkien_ online; if you google the "pdf", it is under PoP Lakewood.


> I have therefore pleased myself. The archaic language of lore is meant to be a kind of 'Elvenlatin', and by transcribing it into a spelling closely resembling that of Latin (except that y is only used as a consonant, as y in E. Yes) the similarity to Latin has been increased ocularly. Actually it might be said to be composed on a Latin basis with two other (main) ingredients that happen to give me 'phonaesthetic' pleasure: Finnish and Greek. It is however less consonantal than any of the three. This language is High-elven or in its own terms Quenya (Elvish). _The Letters of J.R.R.Tolkien #144._


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## Erestor Arcamen (Feb 13, 2020)

NicolausVI said:


> I am extremely excited that you asked this question! The short answer; the common tongue in the Lord of the Rings, Westron, is English, which is why everyone spoke it. However, did Tolkien use and love Latin? Of course he did! Quenya, the original form of Sindarin, is an Elvish-Latin. It declines like Latin does and has gendered nouns. This is admitted by the man himself in _The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien_, number 144. In fact he talks about all his languages in this letter, and answers your very question! But he loved Latin, he was a devout Roman Catholic who went to daily Mass (a detail sorely missed in the new Tolkien movie; all Masses used to be celebrated in Latin only) and spoke Latin fluently. I wrote an essay about Latin and English, I will send it to you if you are interested in reading it (I can't attach it here). Studying Latin is totally worth it, and you know the alphabet and about half the words already! Also a master of Latin translated the Hobbit into Latin under the title _Hobbitus Ille_. You can find it on amazon.com. Don't forget to roll your _R_'s if you do start studying! There is also a free download of _The Letters of J.R.R.Tolkien_ online; if you google the "pdf", it is under PoP Lakewood.



I have a copy of the PDF that I read a lot. Is this the part you're talking about (it's a long letter 😁 !)



> The latter has given me much thought. It seems seldom regarded by other creators of imaginary
> worlds, however gifted as narrators (such as Eddison). But then I am a philologist, and much though
> I should like to be more precise on other cultural aspects and features, that is not within my
> competence. Anyway 'language' is the most important, for the story has to be told, and the dialogue
> ...


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