# I don't understand the logic.



## JOSHUASIGEP44 (Dec 20, 2003)

The date of Khazad-dûm's foundation is uncertain, but it probably predates the First Age. It was then deserted in III 1981. Just as an estimate dwarves inhabited Khazad-dum for roughly 6000 years. So for 6000 (my count) years the dwarves population numbers were increasing. Not to mention there numbers swelled with the destruction of Belegost and Nogrod. That happened at the end of the First Age 583. 1981 Third Age comes around the dwarves dig to deep and release Durin's Bane. Durin VI and his son Náin I had the entire populace of Moria at there disposal. The dwarves could not take out one Balrog. Again just as an estimate I will say 100,000.000 dwarves. MEN/WOMEN&CHILDREN

What I don't understand is this. How come an elf like Ecthelion of the Fountain can take on Gothmog the Lord of the Balrogs in a one on one duel and kill him. Of course he died trying but still Gothmog was the leader and by my account the strongest Balrog ever. Glorfindel of Gondolin fought an unnamed Balrog and killed him also. So these elves by there lonesome can take out a Balrog/Maiar, but every dwarf in Moria at the time of it's desertion could not do the same. I just don't understand the logic. If anyone can help me out I will be glad to share my large assortments of mixed drinks and import beer.
*wipes down the nicest bar stool and cleans a rather large glass* 
"What will it be"


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## Lantarion (Dec 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by JOSHUASIGEP44_
> The date of Khazad-dûm's foundation is uncertain, but it probably predates the First Age.


How on earth could it *predate* the *First* Age! 


> _From Robert Foster's, 'The Complete Guide to Middle-earth'_
> *Khazad-dûm* Greatest of the Dwarf-halls, the mansion and folk-home of Durin's Folk, carved by Durin I early in the First Age in the caves overlooking Azanulbizar. [...]



But I'm not sure; did the inhabitants of Khazad-dûm even try to take on Durin's Bane? And were there even warriors or soldier-Dwarves at hand in Moria at that time, when it was a place of residence and not a military outpost?


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## JOSHUASIGEP44 (Dec 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lantarion _
> *How on earth could it predate the First Age!
> 
> 
> But I'm not sure; did the inhabitants of Khazad-dûm even try to take on Durin's Bane? And were there even warriors or soldier-Dwarves at hand in Moria at that time, when it was a place of residence and not a military outpost? *




I'm fairly certain the it does predate the First Age. The founding of Moria starts during the Years of the Trees. Moria was mentioned in Quenta Silmarillion, the tale of the Elf-lords and their wars far to the West, though to them it was no more than a distant rumor they heard from the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains on their borders.

The dwarves told the elves that there greatest mansion lay in the East, and that was early in the Silmarillion.

Side Note: We know for a fact that at least some of the dwarves engaged the Balrog in combat. Take in account that Durin VI and Nain I were both slain by this creature in battle.

Side Note cont. : In the Fellowship of the Ring when the companions are going through Moria. Gimili comments on how the room with the well was a guard room. So there was some sort of military presence in Moria. The dwarves also held back Sauron's forces in the Second Age. Durings Lindon's down fall


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## Lantarion (Dec 20, 2003)

But Dwarves did not awake until after the Spring of Arda, which meant that the First Age had already begun when Durin founded Khazad-dûm; right?
But now that you reminded me of the military presence, it does seem a bit odd that an Elf was able to defeat a Balrog and many Dwarves were not. Indeed Aulë did make 'his' Dwarves to be extra-hardy and sustain great hardship, so they would have been harder to kill than an Elf.
But I think it boils down to the pseudo-mythical quality in all Elves; what Sam called 'Elvish magic', which I believe to be inherent in _all_ Elves but stronger in the Eldar / Calaquendi. Also, the First Age is basically all about the struggles between the Elves and Melkor, even though Men do play significant roles in the history, so it makes sense to have a representative of the Good side (e.g. Ecthelion) defeat a representative of the Bad side (Gothmog).


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## JOSHUASIGEP44 (Dec 20, 2003)

While I agree that the elves from the first age were abnormally strong. That should still be no reason that 100,000.00 (my count) dwarves should not be able to take out one Balrog.


As far as the dwarves being awoke before the First Age. I was always pretty sure of this and heres why. Iluvatar promised Aule that he would awaken the Fathers of the Dwarves 'when the time comes'. We must assume that he did so shortly after the Awakening of the Elves at Cuivienen (very approximately between 9,000 and 10,000 years before the beginning of the First Age).
It seems that not long passed after their awakening before Durin the Deathless, eldest of the Fathers, founded Khazad-dum (later called Moria) in the Misty Mountains. Certainly it was well established as their chief citadel by the time the first Dwarves crossed the Blue Mountains into Beleriand. This event is dated only as 'during the second age of the Captivity of Melkor', which would place it (approximately) between 3,000 and 6,000 years before the beginning of the First Age.


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## Inderjit S (Dec 20, 2003)

The Dwarves awoke soon after the Elves. (V.Y 1050.)(Annals of Aman; HoME 10)

Durin was the first Dwarf to awake. He resided in what became known as Mount Gundabad. Durin dwelt there for some time, and that was the meeting place for the Seven Clans of Dwarves whenever they decided to meet up and hold conferences. Eventually the Longbeards spread East and South and their main city became Khazad-dum. (Of Dwarves and Men; HoME 12)

It wasn't so much the strength but the fear that the Balrog exhibited. The Elves and Men of the First Age were routed by Glaurung (Dagor Bragollach, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Fall of Nargothrond) and there were thousands of Elves and Men at those battle. (Though Azaghâl and the Dwarves of Belegost did drive away Glaurung in the Nirnaeth.)

I don't think numbers mattered much against the Balrog. The Balrog was a creature of immense size and strength, and even though the Dwarves may have sent a sortie or two out to fight it (As is attributed by the deaths of Durin VI and Nain I, unless he hunted them for fun) would have been vain and futile. Dáin II blanches when he enters Khazad-dûm after the Battle of Nanduhirion and he feels the Balrogs presence. Dáin II was one of the most courageous Dwarves. Think about how your normal Dwarf would cope in the presence of a Balrog? Running away, would be the most likely. Gandalf tells the Fellowship that their weapons were of no use against the Balrog, the same could be said for the Dwarves. Whilst a hammer-blow would mildly injure a Ent, it wouldn't hurt the Balrog much. 

Fëanor, Fingon, Ecthelion, Glorfindel and Gandalf (all beings who have fought Balrogs) were people of immense (and I mean immense) inherent strength, far out-rivalling any of the Dwarves. They didn't fear the Balrogs, Fëanor held out for some time (Longer then Ungoliant!) before he was rescued my the vanguard of his host, Fingon was giving Gothmog a good fight before another Balrog came from behind and then he was killed. We can presume that Fingon's vanguard was slain by Gothmog. 

Ecthelion was attacked by Gothmog before he drove his helmet into him and brought him down into the fountain. Ecthelion duelled with the Balrog and dragged the Balrog down with him as he fell form Cirith Thoronath. (Interestingly in 'Last Writings' (HoME 12) Tolkien states that he wanted to "revise" that duel. All were great feats by some of the greatest beings in Arda. Their lack of fear when confronted by the Balrog and their great strength meant they could duel with the Balrogs. 

I think your estimated of the population in Khazad-dum is too high. True they had not engaged in any large military activities since Sauron's taking of Ost-in-Edhil (apart from the force they sent in the Last Alliance) but "it's people began to dwindle" as the T.A progressed and a LOT of the Dwarven men and women did not marry, thus they reproduced slowly, though the dwarves were immune too all diseases, apart from, rather amusingly, corpulence and chronic diarrhoea


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## Tar-Elenion (Dec 20, 2003)

The Dwarves awoke after the Elves, but the First Age (which lasted something like 4500 years, IIRC) began when the Elves awoke at Cuivienen.


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## JOSHUASIGEP44 (Dec 21, 2003)

[/B][/QUOTE] *Gandalf tells the Fellowship that their weapons were of no use against the Balrog, the same could be said for the Dwarves. Whilst a hammer-blow would mildly injure a Ent, it wouldn't hurt the Balrog much. * 

Your post brings up an interesting point. I should have thought about this before. Durin's Bane slain by Gandalf is the only Balrog we see in the Third Age. What was the object used to bring about his death? Glamdring, an elvish blade from the First Age. Feanor, Ecthelion, Glorfindel and Gandalf all wielded elvish blades forged during the Years of the Tress or First Age endowed with ancient elvish magic. Maybe the dwarfs weapons were useless. 

*I think your estimated of the population in Khazad-dum is too high. * 

Like I posted, just a nice round number I have no base for that conclusion.

*"it's people began to dwindle" as the T.A progressed *

Yes, true, but surely the only started to decline after the fled from Moria. I think I read some where don't quote me that the dwarves of Moria were at the peak of there civilization during that time. Only after 1981 Third Age did they start to dwindle in population size. I would think for no other reason than the had to find a place to go.


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## JOSHUASIGEP44 (Dec 21, 2003)

*The Dwarves awoke after the Elves, but the First Age (which lasted something like 4500 years, IIRC) began when the Elves awoke at Cuivienen. * 

Tar-Elenion: When Orome discovered that the Elves had awoken at Cuivienen. The Valar made war on Melkor to protect the Elder Children of Iluvatar; Utumno was destroyed and Melkor brought in chains to Valinor

A period of three ages (about 2,900 years) followed. Melkor was imprisoned in the halls of Mandos, and the Valar and Eldar dwelt together in the light of the Trees. In the darkness of Middle-earth, the Dark Elves who had not journeyed to Valinor still dwelt, and the Fathers of the Dwarves stirred. Men would not appear until some time after the end of the Years of the Trees.

These Years came to an end when Manwe released Melkor from his imprisonment. For a time, the Dark Lord pretended friendship with the Eldar, but he turned back to the darkness. With Ungoliant, he destroyed the Trees, stole the Silmarils and fled back to the north of Middle-earth. 

So the Years of the Trees came to an end. At this time, the Valar made the Sun and Moon to give light to the World, and the Years of the Sun began, and with them the First Age. 

The First Age was by far the shortest of the three it only lasted 583 years. Starts when Melkor destroyed the trees and ends when he is defeated and jailed some where I forget.

Years of the Trees - roughly 10,500 years
First Age - 583 years
Second Age - 3441
Third Age - 3021 years
Fourth Age - ???


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## Inderjit S (Dec 21, 2003)

> Yes, true, but surely the only started to decline after the fled from Moria.





> After the end of the First Age the power and wealth of Khazad-dûm was much increased; for it was enriched by many people and much lore and craft when the ancient cities of Nogrod and Belegost in the Blue Mountains were ruined at the breaking of Thangorodrim. The power of Moria endured throughout the Dark Years and the dominion of Sauron, for though Eregion was destroyed and the gates of Moria were shut, the halls of Khazad-dûm were too deep and strong and filled with a people too numerous and valiant for Sauron to conquer from without. Thus its wealth remained long unravished, though its people began to dwindle


 _Appendix A_


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## JOSHUASIGEP44 (Dec 21, 2003)

*Thus its wealth remained long unravished, though its people began to dwindle* 

Well, I guess that answers that.

Moving on, The West gate of Moria was sealed in 1697 Second Age, and the dwarves unearthed Durin's Bane in 1980 Third Age. By my math that is 4,725 years that there population dwindled. Don't forget that the realm of Moria was still expanding. Because the books say that they dug to deep. It is hard far me to gather how much they would have dwindled because after they fled from Moria they still had enough dwarves to find and build there home n the Lonely Mountain. Now the founding of the Lonely Mountain was in 1999 Third Age. 

That is 18 years that the dwarves formally of Moria had no home. That is why I wrote that they dwindled only after they left Moria. The Lonely Mountain; the dwarf-kingdom founded by Thrain I after the loss of Khazad-dum. 


Side Note: Durin VI still had Thor's ring on when he fought Durin's Bane. So I guess that is why the wealth of Moria had not diminished


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## Flame of Udûn (Dec 22, 2003)

The wealth of Khazad-dûm had remained _unravished_ [i.e. not spoiled by the forces of Sauron] because the doors had been shut and the dwarves were too valiant. It has nothing to do with the ring.


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## Tar-Elenion (Dec 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by JOSHUASIGEP44 _
> Tar-Elenion:
> A period of three ages (about 2,900 years) followed. Melkor was imprisoned in the halls of Mandos, and the Valar and Eldar dwelt together in the light of the Trees.


Correct, but those are ages of Valinor, as the Valar measure time.




> In the darkness of Middle-earth, the Dark Elves who had not journeyed to Valinor still dwelt, and the Fathers of the Dwarves stirred. Men would not appear until some time after the end of the Years of the Trees.



Yes and no (as the Elves might say). If you ask I will explain.





> So the Years of the Trees came to an end. At this time, the Valar made the Sun and Moon to give light to the World, and the Years of the Sun began, and with them the First Age.


Yes and no again, as above.
However the First Age began when the Elves awoke. 
Time began to be reckoned by the Sun at the point you are describing.



> The First Age was by far the shortest of the three it only lasted 583 years. Starts when Melkor destroyed the trees and ends when he is defeated and jailed some where I forget.



JRRT wrote:
"'Ages' last about 3000 years."

"Of the Tale of Years in the latter ages 
The 'First Age' ended with the Great Battle and the departure of the Elves and Fathers of Men, and the foundation of Numenor. 
The 'Second Age' ended with the overthrow of Sauron, and the Loss of the One Ring. 
The 'Third Age' is drawing to its end in the tales of the Shire and of the Hobbits... 
Each 'Age' last[ed] somewhat more or less than 3000 years..."

"The Tale of Years in the Latter Ages. 
The First Age was the longest. It ended with the Great Battle..."
Above quotes from PoME Chapter 6. 

He also wrote in Letter 131:
"Several tales of victory and tragedy are caught up in it ; but it ends with catastrophe, and the passing of the Ancient World, the world of the ong First Age." 
Note: "long First Age".

And this from WotJ, The Tale of Years:
"In the manuscript as it was originally written the Elder Days began with the Awakening of the Elves: 'Here begin the Elder Days, or the First Age of the Children of Ilúvatar'; but 'the Elder Days' was struck out and does not appear in the typescript."



> Years of the Trees - roughly 10,500 years
> First Age - 583 years
> Second Age - 3441
> Third Age - 3021 years
> Fourth Age - ???



The Elves awaken in VY 1050, the Trees are slain in VY 1495 making that about 4200-4300 sun years. Add to that the time travelling to Beleriand, and the @ 600 years in before the overthrow of Melkor and you have a First Age which last upwards of possibly 4900 years.


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## Lantarion (Dec 22, 2003)

Great arguments T-E! 
So at what point, would you say, the Dwarves awoke? In the First Age, obivously; but does it state somewhere exactly when?


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## Tar-Elenion (Dec 22, 2003)

No, it is nowhere stated when exactly the Dwarves awoke. I would guess at about VY 1150 (JRRT notes in one place that it was soon after the awakening of Men, which occured about the time of the Great March, and Dwarves first crossed over the Blue Mountains and entered Beleriand ca. VY 1250, though the Petty Dwarves were there earlier, IIRC).
But 1150 is merely supposition.


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## Bucky (Dec 22, 2003)

_ What was the object used to bring about his death? Glamdring, an elvish blade from the First Age. Feanor, Ecthelion, Glorfindel and Gandalf all wielded elvish blades forged during the Years of the Tress or First Age endowed with ancient elvish magic. Maybe the dwarfs weapons were useless. _

I'm very doubtful that the swords themselves had much to do with it but the wielders of the swords.......

They had 'magic' in them, although Galadriel didn't seem to like using the same word to describe the 'devices of the enemies' & 'arts of the elves'.

As Gandalf says about Glorfindel versus the Nazgul: "Those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm & have seen the Light of The Two Trees have great power over both the Seen & the Unseen."

"Those" folks, Maiar, High Elves, they have a great power in them to oppose the forces of evil in the Unseen 'spirit' realm, be it Nazgul, sorcerer or Balrog.......

100,000,000 Dwarves - about 1000 times too much - wouldn't have the power to defeat one Balrog that Glorfindel alone would.
Yet, those same 10,000 Dwarves could chop Glorfindel into Kung Pao Elf in 13 seconds flat in a fight........


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## JOSHUASIGEP44 (Dec 22, 2003)

Like I posted 100,000.000 was just a guess nothing more. I had no real base for that number. Ten thousand is still a mess of dwarves, but I will point out that there is no evidence to prove you number either. Although I would wager your number is closer. But that has been covered already.

The point I was making about the sword is this. In every battle when we read about a Balrog dying we see a sword that was forged in the First Age (by elves). Like was posted Gandalf told the fellowship you weapons are useless here. Maybe this because that none of them except Legolas carried anything eleven make. (Aragon's weapon originated from dwarven make via Telchar). That is all I was trying to get across.

I don't agree with the point that Thor's ring had nothing to do with the staying power of Moria's wealth. Sauron gave all the rings out so he could have power over the wearers. The Dwarves proved too hardy to be lured in this way, though, and the Rings did little more than increase their native lust for gold. So the ring was a driving force behind the dwarves of Moria hoarding so much wealth. Thus over the years because of the ring they sought more riches than they would have without the ring

Side Note: The dwarves ring increased there native lust for gold. In not so many words. The ring made then greedy, more so than they all ready were. The book states that the dwarves delved to greedily and unearthed Durin's Bane. Maybe without the ring he would have never been released. Just my thoughts.


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## JOSHUASIGEP44 (Dec 22, 2003)

*Correct, but those are ages of Valinor, as the Valar measure time.* 

I'm not sure I follow you here. Where is the difference between the way the Valar measure time and the way everyone else measure time stated? Forgive me if that is a silly question 

*Yes and no (as the Elves might say). If you ask I will explain.* 

I'm postive that what I stated is stone, but I have been wrong before. By all means go ahead

*Yes and no again, as above.* 

The tress fall then the years of the sun start and with it the First Age. The elves awoke long before this.

If you will indulge me here is a major event time line of the First Age. This should gets us straight I hope 

The First Age 
c. 1 Dagor-nuin-Giliath. 
c. 1 Awakening of Men in Hildórien. 
c. 1 Return of the Noldor to Middle-earth. Death of Fëanor. 
c. 50 Journey of Turgon and Finrod. 
c. 75 Dagor Aglareb. The Siege of Angband is set by the Princes of the Noldor. 
c. 100 Foundation of Nargothrond. 
c. 126 Completion of Gondolin. Turgon's people begin the migration from Nevrast. 
c. 265 Glaurung ravages Beleriand, but is driven back to Angband. 
c. 305 Men are discovered in Ossiriand by Finrod Felagund. 
320 Likely year of Maeglin's birth in Nan Elmoth. 
c. 345 Return of Aredhel and Maeglin to Gondolin. 
c. 345 Death of Eöl the Dark Elf. 
389 Birth of Hador, later Lord of Dor-lómin. 
c. 435 Approximate date of the birth of Haldir of the Haladin. 
439 Birth of Húrin Thalion, later Lord of Dor-lómin. 
c. 443 Approximate date for the birth of Beren Erchamion. 
c. 445 Birth of Ereinion, later called Gil-galad. 
c. 450 Birth of Larnach. 
455 Celegorm and Curufin flee Himlad for Nargothrond. 
Dagor Bragollach. Breaking of the Siege of Angband. 
Húrin and Huor are brought to Gondolin by Thorondor. 
Fingolfin slain in single combat with Morgoth. 
456 Húrin and Huor return out of Gondolin to Dor-lómin. 
457 Capture of Minas Tirith by the forces of Sauron. 
462 Galdor is slain in the siege of Barad Eithel. 
463 Birth of Túrin in Dor-lómin. 
464 Beren first comes upon Lúthien. 
c. 465 Celegorm and Curufin are exiled from Nargothrond and journey to Himring. 
Beren sets out from Doriath on the Quest for the Silmaril 
c. 465 Finrod and Beren are imprisoned in Tol-in-Gaurhoth. Finrod is slain by a werewolf, but Beren is rescued by Lúthien. 
466 Beren and Lúthien recover a Silmaril from Morgoth's Iron Crown, but it is taken by Carcharoth. 
467 The Hunting of the Wolf, and the recovery of the Silmaril. 
471 The Nirnaeth Arnoediad. 
Fingon is slain in the Nirnaeth. Turgon becomes High King of the Noldor. 
Huor is slain in the Fen of Serech, and Húrin is captured by Morgoth. 
Birth of Tuor. 
472 Siege and capture of the Havens of Brithombar and Eglarest. 
c. 475 Birth of Dior Eluchíl on Tol Galen. 
c. 490 Approximate date of the reforging of Anglachel into Gurthang. 
495 Sack of Nargothrond. 
The coming of Tuor to Gondolin. 
499 Release of Hûrin from Angband. 
Slaying of Glaurung, and deaths of Túrin Turambar and Nienor Níniel in Brethil. 
c. 500 Approximate date Hurin's coming to the ruins Nargothrond. There, he slays Mîm, last of the Petty-dwarves. 
c. 500 Approximate date of the birth of Elwing. 
c. 500 Death of Húrin Thalion. 
c. 500 Death of Larnach. 
c. 502 Death of Thingol and departure of Melian. 
c. 504 Journey of Dior to Doriath. 
c. 505 Assault by the Sons of Fëanor on Menegroth. Dior, Celegorm, Curufin and Caranthir are all slain. 
c. 505 Deaths of Beren and Lúthien. 
510 Fall of Gondolin and death of Turgon. 
Glorfindel slays a Balrog in the Encircling Mountains, and is himself slain. 
c. 525 Approximate date of the birth of Elrond and Elros. 
c. 560 Tuor and Idril sail into the West in the ship Eärrámë. 
c. 583 War of Wrath and the destruction of Beleriand. 
c. 583 Angband is destroyed and Morgoth is banished from the World. (Mouth Full)

Please forgive the length, as you can see the dwarves awoke before the First Age.


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## Tar-Elenion (Dec 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by JOSHUASIGEP44 _
> I'm not sure I follow you here. Where is the difference between the way the Valar measure time and the way everyone else measure time stated? Forgive me if that is a silly question



The the Valinorean ages are approximatly 1000 sun years long each. They are different form of measuring time from the First, Second, Third etc. Ages in that they have a specific length of time they are measured by regardless of events surrounding them. Some of them also take place with in the First Age. For example the three ages of Melkor's imprisonment took place within the First Age. As I quoted JRRT above the First Age was the longest, and began when the Elves awoke.



> *Yes and no (as the Elves might say). If you ask I will explain.*
> I'm postive that what I stated is stone, but I have been wrong before. By all means go ahead



What you wrote was:
"In the darkness of Middle-earth, the Dark Elves who had not journeyed to Valinor still dwelt, and the Fathers of the Dwarves stirred. Men would not appear until some time after the end of the Years of the Trees."

Let me quote JRRT again, from The Hobbit:
"The feasting people were Wood-elves, of course. These are not wicked folk. If they have a fault it is distrust of strangers. Though their magic was strong, even in those days they were wary. They differed from the High Elves of the West, and were more dangerous and less wise. For most of them (together with their scattered relations in the hills and mountains) were descended from the ancient tribes that never went to Faerie in the West. There the Light-elves and the Deep-elves and the Sea-elves went and lived for ages, and grew fairer and wiser and more learned, and invented their magic and their cunning craft, in the making of beautiful and marvellous things, before some came back into the Wide World. In the Wide World the Wood-elves lingered in the twilight of our Sun and Moon but loved best the stars; and they wandered in the great forests that grew tall in lands that are now lost. "

These 'Dark Elves', Moriquendi, dwelt Middle-earth (the Wide World) "in the twilight of our Sun and Moon" while the Vanyar, Noldor and Teleri (Light-, Deep-, and Sea-elves) dwelt in Valinor (Faerie) for "ages" befor the Noldor returned to Middle-earth.

Also a quote from LotR

"The world was young, the mountains green,
No stain yet on the Moon was seen,
No words were laid on stream or stone
When Durin woke and walked alone."

When Durin father of the Dwarves woke there was a Moon. 


"A king he was on carven throne
In many-pillared halls of stone
With golden roof and silver floor,
And runes of power upon the door.
The light of sun and star and moon
In shining lamps of crystal hewn
Undimmed by cloud or shade of night
There shone for ever fair and bright."

Durin captured the light of sun and moon in crystal lamps to light his halls.
Both of these things would be difficult to do if the sun and moon did not exist until 1000's of years after Durin woke. So the Elves (and Dwarves) did not dwell in the 'darkness' of Middle-earth (or at least not the darkness as you seem to mean it). 



> The tress fall then the years of the sun start and with it the First Age. The elves awoke long before this.


Yes, after the Death of the Two Trees the Eldar start to measure time in Sun Years. And Elves woke long before that. However the First Age begins when the Elves awake (as JRRT notes).


> If you will indulge me here is a major event time line of the First Age. This should gets us straight I hope
> 
> The First Age
> <snip>
> Please forgive the length, as you can see the dwarves awoke before the First Age. [/B]



Ah yes, the Encyclopedia of Arda. They are wrong.
However perhaps JRRT can set us (and E of A) straight. 

Can you provide a quote from JRRT stating that the First Age began only when the Noldor returned to Middle-earth?

Here are the *quotes* I provided *from JRRT*, which all say something rather different:

"'Ages' last about 3000 years."

"Of the Tale of Years in the latter ages 
The 'First Age' ended with the Great Battle and the departure of the Elves and Fathers of Men, and the foundation of Numenor. 
The 'Second Age' ended with the overthrow of Sauron, and the Loss of the One Ring. 
The 'Third Age' is drawing to its end in the tales of the Shire and of the Hobbits... 
Each 'Age' last[ed] somewhat more or less than 3000 years..."

"The Tale of Years in the Latter Ages. 
The First Age was the longest. It ended with the Great Battle..."
Above quotes from PoME Chapter 6. 

He also wrote in Letter 131:
"Several tales of victory and tragedy are caught up in it ; but it ends with catastrophe, and the passing of the Ancient World, the world of the long First Age." 
Note: "long First Age".

And this from WotJ, The Tale of Years:
"In the manuscript as it was originally written the Elder Days began with the Awakening of the Elves: 'Here begin the Elder Days, or the First Age of the Children of Ilúvatar'; but 'the Elder Days' was struck out and does not appear in the typescript."

The First Age begin's with the Awakening of the Elves as per the Tale of Years manuscript. The Dwarves awoke after the Elves, and it seems, shortly after Men, and so awkoe during the First Age.


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## Bucky (Dec 22, 2003)

_I don't agree with the point that Thor's ring had nothing to do with the staying power of Moria's wealth._

A double negative makes a _positive._

Therefore, you DO agree?

Or you DON'T?

Either way, don't forget this:

'At the foundation of every Dwarf hoard was a golden ring' (paraphrase)

Therefore, the Ring of Power most definitely WAS involved in the increase of Moria's wealth.


Here's another thing that always bothered me.............

Durin's Bane flees from the War of Wrath.
Scared stiff, he hides under Caradhras near the mithril vein.
The balrog is imprisioned for 5400 years before the dwarves 'delved too deep' & released it......

OK, how did Durin's Bane get IN in the first place but couldn't get back out without being dug out?
Did it have a stick or two of dynamite & blow up the tunnel after it hid?


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## JOSHUASIGEP44 (Dec 22, 2003)

Bucky: You are absolutely right. I typed that all funny, and in a hurry. That line should read Thor's ring had plenty to do with the staying power of Moria's wealth. Anyway other than that you are almost pulling words right out of my mouth. That message was in reply to this

Flame of Udun "The wealth of Khazad-dûm had remained unravished [i.e. not spoiled by the forces of Sauron] because the doors had been shut and the dwarves were too valiant. *It has nothing to do with the ring."* 

Moving on 

Tar-Elenion: You seem to have me at a bit of a disadvantage. As I'm at work and have no books with me. I will get back to you on that posthaste. Anyway your quote about the Moriquendi (Dark Elves) I would say goes right along with what I posted. 

Side note: This has gotten way off topic. The orignal topic of this thread was me seeking an answer to this question.

Question - How is that a signal elf can take out a Balrog,but the entire realm of Moria could not. 

Answer - ( I think) Those elves were all First Age born and had seen the Light of the trees (so on and so fourth). So they were for lack of any better words were more equipped to handle the situation. Ex. Feanor, Fingon, Ecthelion, and Glorfindel


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## Tar-Elenion (Dec 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by JOSHUASIGEP44 _
> Tar-Elenion: You seem to have me at a bit of a disadvantage. As I'm at work and have no books with me. I will get back to you on that posthaste. Anyway your quote about the Moriquendi (Dark Elves) I would say goes right along with what I posted.



Wel, I must admit that I am intrigued by how the Moriquendi living in Midle-earth with a Sun and a Moon overhead, long *before* the Noldor ever returned to Middle-earth and long *before* the Two Trees were murdered, could support your conclusion that Dwarves awoke before the Sun and Moon existed, and before the First Age began, when according to your posts the sun first rose only after the death of the Trees, and the return of the Noldor.


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## Úlairi (Dec 29, 2003)

*The inherent weakness of the Dwarves...*

I am surprised (as I saw some of the 'big guns' in here such as Tar-Elenion and Bucky) didn't realize the real answer to it, well, it was in a sense, but never explored completely. Lanty hit the nail on the proverbial head when she mentioned the pseudo-mythical inherent power of the Elves, but we must remember the creation of the Dwarves! Aulë created them against the will of Ilúvatar. However, when Eru takes compassion on Aulë, he says this of his creation.



> _The Silmarillion: Of Aulë and Yavanna_
> *"But Ilúvatar spoke again and said: 'Even as I gave being to the thoughts of the Ainur at the beginning of the World, so now I have taken up thy desire and given a place to it therein; but in no other way will I amend thy handiwork, and as thou hast made it, so shall it be."*



The Dwarves were a mere sub-creation, and not of the mind of Ilúvatar himself. However, the Valaraukar indeed were, and so were the Quendi, but the Dwarves were a mere 'shadow' to them. Ilúvatar acknowledged their right to exist by making them rational beings, but as he said, he would not amend any of the other handiwork involved. In which case, the Dwarves would have been of far lesser stature than the Elves or the Maia (Valaraukar).

Better late than never.  Hope that helps Josh (if that is OK to call you that)!


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## Bucky (Dec 29, 2003)

_ am surprised (as I saw some of the 'big guns' in here such as Tar-Elenion and Bucky) didn't realize the real answer to it, well, it was in a sense, but never explored completely. Lanty hit the nail on the proverbial head when she mentioned the pseudo-mythical inherent power of the Elves, but we must remember the creation of the Dwarves! Aulë created them against the will of Ilúvatar._

Hey, Ulairi! Nice to see you back here......

_'big guns' _

Nice to see respect for your Elders......  

_Lanty hit the nail on the proverbial head when she mentioned the pseudo-mythical inherent power of the Elves,_

More like 'hit her thumb' if that's what she said......

It's not 'inherent power' in Elves, or Legolas would be on the same playing feild as Ecthellien. It's having dwelt in the Blssed realm in the days of the Two Trees......

"Those who have dwelt in the Light Of The Two Trees have great power over both the Seen & The Unseen."

Therein lies the true source.......

So, it's:

Inherent Elvish 'potential' + Dwelling In The Light Of The Two Trees = Balrog killing ability (or any evil 'magical being)


_but we must remember the creation of the Dwarves! Aulë created them against the will of Ilúvatar_

Now, if that were true, Men, & Edain in particular - they sure had plenty of oppurtunities - could've taken on Balrogs, no?


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## JOSHUASIGEP44 (Dec 29, 2003)

Yes, it's fine you can call me JOSH. 

Upon further review of the whole Dwarf/ First Age thing. Let me just go on record as saying I was wrong. After taking some time and rereading I see my errors. Oh well happens alot I'm sure it will happen again

Side note: Again I'm amazed at the thought and effort that Tolkien put into his work. No other fantasy series even comes close. BAR NONE.


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## Úlairi (Dec 29, 2003)

Bucky said:


> _ am surprised (as I saw some of the 'big guns' in here such as Tar-Elenion and Bucky) didn't realize the real answer to it, well, it was in a sense, but never explored completely. Lanty hit the nail on the proverbial head when she mentioned the pseudo-mythical inherent power of the Elves, but we must remember the creation of the Dwarves! Aulë created them against the will of Ilúvatar._
> 
> Hey, Ulairi! Nice to see you back here......
> 
> ...



Yeah, I forgot about the magical properties of photons! But I believe my explanation of the Dwarves seems liklier of the two. Elves were the only immortal race of Arda, and even in the beginning were considered as greater than all of the others of ME. Even the Moriquendi would have greater power than that of Men. It was also considered that Glorfindel could have been of the Sindar, that never saw the light of the trees, although it contradicts what it says of Glorfindel in _The Lord of the Rings_. Who knows?


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## Úlairi (Dec 29, 2003)

Bucky said:


> _ am surprised (as I saw some of the 'big guns' in here such as Tar-Elenion and Bucky) didn't realize the real answer to it, well, it was in a sense, but never explored completely. Lanty hit the nail on the proverbial head when she mentioned the pseudo-mythical inherent power of the Elves, but we must remember the creation of the Dwarves! Aulë created them against the will of Ilúvatar._
> 
> Hey, Ulairi! Nice to see you back here......
> 
> ...



Yeah, I forgot about the magical properties of photons! But I believe my explanation of the Dwarves seems liklier of the two. Elves were the only immortal race of Arda, and even in the beginning were considered as greater than all of the others of ME. Even the Moriquendi would have greater power than that of Men. It was also considered that Glorfindel could have been of the Sindar, that never saw the light of the trees, although it contradicts what it says of Glorfindel in _The Lord of the Rings_. Who knows?


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## Ingolmin (Jan 5, 2017)

The Noldor were great fighters and were both valourous and mighty. The light of Aman was in their eyes and they were tireless. As time passes the power wanes. If you would studied about a dwarves who fought in the wars against Melkor, you would come to know that they were really very powerful than their descendants. 
Ecthelion and Glorfindel were very brave elves. What they did could not be done by the dwarves of Khazaduum when they were attacked by Durin's Bane. 
Now don't say that dwarves were also great fighters. The answer to this I have already given in the first lines.


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