# Manwe vs. Morgorth? who would win?



## Daeron (Nov 3, 2002)

*Manwe vs. Melchar*

Who do you think would win on a one on one fight? No other Valar present, just them.


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## Celebthôl (Nov 3, 2002)

Who is Melchar? tell us that then we can decide


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## Daeron (Nov 3, 2002)

Melchar is the original name of Morgoth the Enemy before he commited all the evil he did.


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## Ithrynluin (Nov 3, 2002)

That would be Melko or Melkor.

Welcome BTW!


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## Gothmog (Nov 3, 2002)

Since Melkor was in the begining the greatest of the Ainur and did stand aganst the rest of the Valar beating them at every turn, I would say that early on there would have been no contest. Melkor would have won without breaking into a sweat.

However, as Melkor spent himself in his lies and deceits he weakened himself to the point that I doubt he would be able to put up much of a fight even a gainst one of the lesser Maia. And as he also became a coward he would not even try.


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## Grond (Nov 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Gothmog _
> *Since Melkor was in the begining the greatest of the Ainur and did stand aganst the rest of the Valar beating them at every turn, I would say that early on there would have been no contest. Melkor would have won without breaking into a sweat.
> 
> However, as Melkor spent himself in his lies and deceits he weakened himself to the point that I doubt he would be able to put up much of a fight even a gainst one of the lesser Maia. And as he also became a coward he would not even try. *


 ROFTL! Gothmog, that is our ex-boss you're talking about.

I would have whipped the living daylights out of Manwe anyday of the week. My boss would have swung me left, swung me right, and whopped his butt good. 

On second thought... what Gothmog said.


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## Daeron (Nov 3, 2002)

Putting aside the fact that Morgoth was a coward(in his later years) I think that he was more powerful. But *IF* He wasnt the coward he turned into I think he could've whooped Manwe's ass.


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## Hobbit-GalRosie (Nov 18, 2002)

Um, I think Manwe would win hands down, and here's why:



> Manwe and Melkor were bretheren in the thought of Iluvatar. The mightiest of those Ainur who came into the world was in the beginning Melkor; but Manwe is dearest to Iluvatar and understands most clearly his purposes. He was appointed to be, in the fullness of time, the first of all Kings: lord of the realm of Arda and all that dwell therein.





> Last of all is set the name of Melkor, He who arises in might. But that name he has forfeited...Great might was given to him by Iluvatar, and he was coeval with Manwe. In the Powers and knowlege of all the other Valar he had part, but he turned them to evil purposes, and squandered his strength in violence and tyranny.



I could go on and on, but I know how annoying that is. The point is that Melkor is constantly referred to as one who _had_ great Power but lost much of it when he became evil. Manwe _was_ his _equal_ , (not, mind you, his little brother who doesn't quite measure up) which would make it an exciting match, but Melkor used his strength up in his deeds of wickedness and rage; therefore I imagine Manwe would be much more powerful. Also I like how in Tolkien's stories good has a way of triumphing, even under the most unlikely circumstances (Which a one-on-one fight would hardly be anyway). A couple of Hobbits destroying the Ring of Power is not what one could deem to be in the realm of possibility, but it happened. Besides, Manwe has Iluvatar on his side, and He doesn't have to interfere for things to turn out the way he wants them to.


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## Lantarion (Nov 18, 2002)

In light of the second of the above quotes provided by Hobbit-GalRosie, I would have to say that Manwë would be victorious. But if they were to fight before the Ainulindalë, I think Melkor would have won.
Welcome to the forum, obbit-GalRosie and Daeron!


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## Lhunithiliel (Nov 19, 2002)

As I understand Daeron's question, we're speaking here of a one-to-one fight.
IMO, in order to win such a fight, one has to AT LEAST: 
feel a bit of hatred, a bit of envy, be a bit malicious, a bit cunning and tricky, wish a bit his opponent's defeat (death?), be a bit strong, have a bit of ambition....

And Melkor had * A LOT* of all these!

I see Manwe's strength in his alliance with the other Valar while Melkor, being a _rebel_ almost since the beginning, is more fit for such a duel.
I think, Melkor would have won in one-to-one "mortal combat".


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## Hobbit-GalRosie (Nov 23, 2002)

With all due respect, I don't think it's necessary to be malicious to have motivation. I think Manwe did have a great deal of intelligence and cunning, although I don't have quotes to support it, since the library has reclaimed the copy of the Sil I was using before. After all the evil done by Melkor I think Manwe would be more than determined enough to ensure an unpleasant end for the Dark Lord.


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## Ceorl (Nov 30, 2002)

Manwe was the equal of Morgoth over all perhaps, but Morgoth was also apparently "mightiest of the dwellers in Arda" which makes him stronger than Manwe, also I dont think that Manwe's strength was put into fighting. Personally I think that Tulkas stood a stronger chance of defeating him at any stage than did Manwe. Remember that Tulkas and Morgoth did fight one on one and Tulkas won.

Basically I am trying to say that Manwe was not a fighter.


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## Gothmog (Nov 30, 2002)

Manwe may well not have been a fighter. However, we do have something to show how Tolkien himself felt about this question, even if it never came up in the Silmarillion.


> Then Melko sprang to his feet shouting in a loud voice and his folk came through all those dismal passages to his aid. Then lashed he at Manwe with an iron flail he bore, but Manwe breathed gently upon it and its iron tassels were blown backward,


 from BolT1: IV THE CHAINING OF MELKO.

I think this shows that no matter how it was at the beginning. Melko/Melkor was no match even by the time of his first chaining.


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## Daeron (Nov 30, 2002)

Ah, I still think Melkor could have givin a good ass whoopin to manwe. Manwe wasnt even the physical type. He was more phylisophical book readin type....even though Valar didnt need to read books...


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## Hobbit-GalRosie (Dec 4, 2002)

Um, okay, I understand where you're coming from, Daeron, and thank you for pointing that out. I'd have never thought of that on my own. But I still think that Manwe would win, partly even because he wasn't the fighter type, and I don't think Melkor knew how to deal with that; I can only imagine his bewilderment when Manwe needed only breathe on his big, fancy whip and it was blown back useless. I think considering that the Valar don't even really need to have physical form the physical kind of strength is to some degree irrelevent. I don't think you have to be like Rambo or something to win a fight, although that helps. I think Manwe would win _both_ by strength and by cunning.


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## Celebithil (Dec 20, 2002)

*Melkor I think*

If as according to the books they are exactly even in power and without any specifics in the types of power I believe that Melkor would win because of his cunning ways. He was the first to think of something other than Illuvator in the song he went off on his on even though the musci was bad it was his idea. He is more creative I think albeit in a destructive way. It really could go either way but I think in the end Melkor would win also im assuming this is when they first come to Arda before Melkor becomes Morgoth and diminishes because of his being on Earth and stuff like that.


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## Dwimmerlaik (Dec 27, 2002)

Lord Moran's Theory,
1/Those who are never afraid
2/Those whom are afraid,and carry on regardless
3/Those who are afraid and shirk.
This certainly isn't a comprhensive list of frailtie's,but it may well explain the juxtaposition of the unquestioned righteousness of the valar,to the maiar that were susceptible to Melkor, and those that were forced to take sides.


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## WizardKing (Jan 10, 2003)

who would win in a one on one battle, and who would be involved as theier lueteinnts?


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## BlackCaptain (Jan 10, 2003)

I think Melkor would win if it was just a duel between them. But Manwe wins anyways, cuz he has all the other Valar, and they cast Melkor into the void. So by luetenints do you mean just like, 3, or as many as they wanted? Melkor would have Sauron, the Morgul King, (even thought he wasnt around yet) and... Sauraman? I think Manwe could only loose if it was 1 on 1.


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## Celebthôl (Jan 10, 2003)

i think hed actually have somone like, Gothmog, Sauron and either Ancalagon or Glaurung (sp) and Manwe would have somone like Orome, Tulkas and either Aule or Ulmo!

Thôl


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## jallan (Jan 10, 2003)

It would depend when the battle occurred.

In _Morgoth's Ring_ (HoME 10), "Myths Transformed", VI and VII, Tolkien explains that Melkor gradually disseminated his power into the material substance of Arda in order to control it, and so became personally weaker in his own form, permanently incarnate, unable when he returned to Middle-earth with the Silmarils even to change the shape of his body.

From Tolkien's plans for a fuller writing of the Battle of the Valar in the first section I've noted:


> The war against Utumno was only undertaken by the Valar with reluctance, and without hope of real victory, but rather as a covering action or diversion to enable them to get the Quendi out of his sphere of influence. But Melkor had already progressed some way towards becoming ‘the Morgoth, a tyrant (or central tryanny and will), + his agenets’.² Only the _total_ contained the old power of the complete Melkor; so that if ‘the Morgoth’ could be reached or temporarily separated from his agents he was much more nearly controlable and on a power-level with the Valar. The Valar find that they can deal with his agents (sc. armies, Balrogs, etc.) piecemeal. So that they caome at last to Utumno itself and find ‘the Morgoth’ has no longer for the moment sufficient ‘force’ (in any sense) to shield himself from direct personal contact. Manwë at last faces Melkor again, as he has not done since he entered Arda. Both are amazed: Manwë to perceive the _decrease_ in Melkor as a _person_; Melkor to perceive this also from his own point of view: he now has less personal force than Manwë, and can no longer daunt this gaze.
> Either Manwë must tell him so or he must himself suddenly realize (or both) that this has happened: he is ‘dispersed’. But the lust to have creatures under him, dominated, has become habitual and necessary to Melkor, so that even if the process was reversible (possibly was by absolute and unfeigned self-abasement and repentence only) he cannot bring himself to do it.


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## Snaga (Jan 10, 2003)

Great answer Jallan. You clearly know your stuff! Welcome.


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## redline2200 (Jan 30, 2003)

I'm surprised that people left out Eonwe. I would say he would definitely be used as one of Manwe's lieutenants. After all, he was entrusted with the simarils after they were recovered so he must be important as well as powerful and trustworthy.


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## Gothmog (Jan 31, 2003)

*Mod's Comment*

I have merged the thread "Manwe vs. Morgoth? who would win?" with the thread pointed out by Nóm so that all the posts from that one can also be seen.


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## Confusticated (Jan 31, 2003)

*Re: Mod's Comment*



> _Originally posted by Gothmog _
> *I have merged the thread "Manwe vs. Morgoth? who would win?" with the thread pointed out by Nóm so that all the posts from that one can also be seen. *


As soon as Gothmog merged the threads I deleted the post where I provided the link to the other thread, as it became useless. 
Anyhow, that is what Gothmog is refering to with "pointed out by Nom".


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## Grond (Jan 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by redline2200 _
> *I'm surprised that people left out Eonwe. I would say he would definitely be used as one of Manwe's lieutenants. After all, he was entrusted with the simarils after they were recovered so he must be important as well as powerful and trustworthy. *


 I would say that Eonwe was one of the greatest of the Maia.


> _from The Silmarillion, Valaquenta, Of the Maiar_
> ...Chief among the Maiar of Valinor whose names are remembered in the histories of the Elder Days are Ilmarë, the handmaid of Varda, and Eönwë the banner-bearer and herald of Manwë, *whose might in arms is surpassed by none in Arda*.


Eonwe sounds pretty tough to me.


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## Beleg (Feb 1, 2003)

I think we are forgetting Tulkas. Manwe with all due respect symbolizes as the lieutant of Illuvatar and is thus far greater in knowledge and wisdom then Morgoth. While, the same cannot be said about Physical Power, in which I deem that Morgoth Excels. And the symbol of Physical Power for Vala is Tulkas or Orome. 
So i guess if it comes to a physical combat it would be between Tulkas and Morgoth. 

And by the way, there was another such thread and someone provided a quote from Home 10, quoting something like When Morgoth is free again at the end of World, Tulkas fights him with Tùrin on one side and another Maia on the other side. Can someone provide me with that link?

And the work of Manwe is to maintain the ballance of the world, and fight off Melkor's tactics. He would surely not indulge in physical combat.


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 1, 2003)

Melkor would win at the beginning.
Manwë would win after Morgoth "spent" all his power.


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## Grond (Feb 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow _
> *...And by the way, there was another such thread and someone provided a quote from Home 10, quoting something like When Morgoth is free again at the end of World, Tulkas fights him with Tùrin on one side and another Maia on the other side. Can someone provide me with that link?
> *


Ask and ye shall receive. Here is a thread where all of the different references to the Last Battle are summarzied.


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## Lotrguy (Sep 22, 2019)

This does not even question.


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## Olorgando (Sep 22, 2019)

I have two very hypothetical thoughts about this. For the first, what popped up in my mind was the scene with the Hobbits at Tom Bombadil's house, when Frodo very reluctantly gives the One Ring to Tom, who puts it on and - nothing happens. The One Ring had exactly zero, zilch, nada power over Tom. My "train of thought" is that Melkor would have had exactly the same effect on Manwë. Construing ever more wildly, Manwë comes to Angband, right up to the doors above which Thangorodrim was raised, and asks Melko (as he might likely still address the _über_-baddie) "what do you think you were doing?" Melkor unleashes all of his fury at this "impertinence"; when the dust settles, Manwë does not even have to flick the smallest dust speck from his raiment, sighs, and says "you still didn't answer my question. The dust came from the pulverization of Angband which Melkor, in his insane rage, did not even notice he had effected with it. Melkor has a very severe "I hate my life" emotional attack (kinda sums up much of the early Silmarillion).

Second wild flight of fancy: think of Númenor. Yes, the original question (I think) says Melkor versus Manwë one-on-one. But by the time of the physical creation of Arda, there was not the slightest doubt about whom Eru thought, between the two, to be the sane ruler to keep this Arda business on track, and who the insane hooligan. So my guess would be that the one to get plucked up and given a massive thrashing on the backside - will definitely not be Manwë ...


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## Lotrguy (Sep 23, 2019)

Ithrynluin said:


> Melkor would win at the beginning.
> Manwë would win after Morgoth "spent" all his power.


What is your reasoning for your conclusion?

Eru could definitely see more in Manwe, but not for power. Manwe was supposed to organize and watch over the Valar, but that doesn't mean he is the strongest. I'm pretty sure Manwe would just direct Tulkas into defeating or scaring away Melkor, and that's what gives Manwe power. If its a one on one, Melkor would overcome Manwe, as his power is mainly lost.


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## Olorgando (Oct 3, 2019)

I think we are - we are probably by our nature unable to do else - focusing too much on the "embodied" forms of the Valar / Maiar (though for both Morgoth and Sauron this became a serious issue near their respective ends and finite powers as embodied beings in Arda, as each had dissipated so much of his native powers, each in his own way, by then). I'm certain that none of the Ainur, taking this term to mean the disembodied form of those that chose to enter Arda and become embodied, could "do" anything to one another. The only times the Valar / Maiar "did" anything against the embodied form of Melkor / Morgoth was at the end of the war against Morgoth upon the awakening of the Elves (by Tulkas), and at the end of the War of Wrath (presumably by Eonwë). The rest of the time, JRRT shows almost a PJ-ish streak of constantly stacking the deck in favor of the baddies, as they all don't give squat about any of Eru's prohibitions, while the good side abides by them to a point of near-masochism. There is also his wallowing back and forth on the enormous (excessive) original power of Melkor between the BoLT stage, then the stage that basically ended up in the Silmarillion, and back again in the "Mannish tradition" fixation that he showed in what Christopher wrote about in "Myths Transformed" in HoMe volume 10 "Morgoth's Ring".
In letter #131 in Humphrey Carpenter's 1981 book "The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien", an enormously long one covering almost 19 pages of the book, probably written late in 1951 to Milton Waldman of the publisher Collins (Harper would be added years later), for a short while looking to be the publisher of LoTR, JRRT states:
"(since the Númenóreans directed by Sauron could have wrought ruin in Valinor itself)"
To me, this statement is a definite title contender for the single most horrific failure of the imagination that JRRT ever committed to writing. Instead of totally laying down their rule over Arda, the Valar could also have asked Eru to lift his ban against direct actions by the Valar against the Eruhini, at least for these specific ones, as their were products of Sauron's, and thus ultimately Melkor's, malice.
Item 1: Ossë, using a bit of wind from Manwë, could have reduced the whole fleet of Ar-Pharazôn's to splinters in nothing flat and drowned the whole lot.
Item 2: even allowing Ar-Pharazôn's armament to land on the shores of Valinor, it would have taken Tulkas, perhaps with a little help from Oromë and Eonwë, about five minutes to mop the floor with the lot. Any attempted interference from Sauron would have been dealt with by Tulkas with a back-handed slap that would have sent Sauron flying back to the eastern gates of flat Arda like a meteorite streaking through the atmosphere.
But probably, the whole make-the-world-round event was already part of that Music of the Ainur … 🤨


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## Miguel (Oct 20, 2019)

A quick observation - Satan has been referred to as "The prince of the power of the air", but not king.


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## Aldarion (Oct 21, 2019)

Olorgando said:


> "(since the Númenóreans directed by Sauron could have wrought ruin in Valinor itself)"
> To me, this statement is a definite title contender for the single most horrific failure of the imagination that JRRT ever committed to writing. Instead of totally laying down their rule over Arda, the Valar could also have asked Eru to lift his ban against direct actions by the Valar against the Eruhini, at least for these specific ones, as their were products of Sauron's, and thus ultimately Melkor's, malice.
> Item 1: Ossë, using a bit of wind from Manwë, could have reduced the whole fleet of Ar-Pharazôn's to splinters in nothing flat and drowned the whole lot.
> Item 2: even allowing Ar-Pharazôn's armament to land on the shores of Valinor, it would have taken Tulkas, perhaps with a little help from Oromë and Eonwë, about five minutes to mop the floor with the lot. Any attempted interference from Sauron would have been dealt with by Tulkas with a back-handed slap that would have sent Sauron flying back to the eastern gates of flat Arda like a meteorite streaking through the atmosphere.



Keep in mind that Numenoreans at some point apparently had rockets, napalm and nukes.


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## Grond (Oct 21, 2019)

Olorgando said:


> Second wild flight of fancy: think of Númenor. Yes, the original question (I think) says Melkor versus Manwë one-on-one. But by the time of the physical creation of Arda, there was not the slightest doubt about whom Eru thought, between the two, to be the sane ruler to keep this Arda business on track, and who the insane hooligan. So my guess would be that the one to get plucked up and given a massive thrashing on the backside - will definitely not be Manwë ...


I don't agree with this statement. Eru was all powerful and could have done what he liked with any aspect of the Ainur's descent to Arda. What did Eru actually do? Nothing! He allowed Melkor to claim it for himself and the Ainundale gives us no indication that Eru picked Manwe for anything. I would state that in the beginning of Arda, Melkor would have wiped up the table against the other Valar. Tulkas was sent late to the game to even the teams. 

I concur that later (think Fingolfin) Manwe would have whooped Melkor. Heck, Melkor would have been operating at half power by then, having leached so much of his inherent power into his molding of Arda to his design.


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## Miguel (Oct 21, 2019)

Grond said:


> I concur that later (think Fingolfin) Manwe would have whooped Melkor. Heck, Melkor would have been operating at half power by then, having leached so much of his inherent power into his molding of Arda to his design.





> _But he desired rather to subdue to his will both Elves and Men, envying the gifts with which Ilúvatar promised to endow them_



I think he sort of becomes "Eruhin" in the 1st Age.


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## hamwisegamgee (Sep 10, 2020)

They are all indestructible until Dagor Dagorath when Morgoth is vanquished via spear. When an Ainur is vanquished the present vanishes and then even mankind joins in the 2nd singing. Re-reading the Silmarillion may help clarify this. Manwe is said to have been blind to evil therefore battle would have been inconceivable to him. Why Morgoth was not doomed again to wander the halls of Mandos is not clear to me. Perhaps it was Tolkien's idea for something to free him eventually and set the stage for the final battle?


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