# What if.....?



## Ancalagon (Mar 16, 2009)

I have always wanted to start a series of debates based on how events may have panned out had circumstances been slightly different, possibly by the survival or death of a key character. 
I had thought about this for some time, but was always reluctant to post as I believed it was sacrilege to suggest such a thing. However, should the music in the beginning have slightly differed, the strands of fate taken an altered path, how could this have affected the eventual outcomes in Middle-Earth we came to know through Tolkien's work. Your role is present an argument based on fact and how that characters demise or survival may have changed, even if ever so slightly the course of history! The debate must be supported by how events in their totality take their course in your opinion, no matter how far the link may go. Then again, it may not simply be life or death 
I suppose this thread might appeal to those who have the full works, a love of research and a vivid but logical imagination

What if: Bëor had not entered Beleriand from the East over the Blue Mountains?


----------



## YayGollum (Mar 17, 2009)

Do you mean ---> What if they had entered via some other path? Probably not. Or what if they had merely decided to be lazy and settle someplace east of the Blue Mountains, they get to come into the story way later, and I should be thinking up how Beren would have ended up if he had remained a bachelor and un-zombified? Most probably you merely mean for us to debate on the many things that could have happened if these humans never existed. Got it.

The correct answer ---> In battles where these humans were helpful, the big-brained and apparently far more important and interesting elves would have merely adjusted their strategies to work with less Orc fodder. How highly did the average elf care for the average human, anyways? Not much. Also, Mel wouldn't have produced as many minions, since he wouldn't have had as many opponents. Maybe? 

That dragony helm would have stayed in some elf's family, just another awesome Dwarvish gift for the elves to take for granted (But then, how much more thankful to Dwarves were any of the humans who had the thing?). 

Many more people would have died, since Tuor (and Earendil, I guess) wasn't around to be awesome. But then, it was bad enough with them that things wouldn't have been much different when Ulmo pestered some other human to do his bidding, and one of Turgon's ships finally got through to Valinor, and he got to seem like way more of a hero. 

And, as a matter of course, plenty of people wouldn't have been killed by Turin elfbane's crazy charisma levels. Mim and his poor kids merely would have died peacefully, so many deaths would have been avoided due to cursed gold. The Nauglamir wouldn't have even been made, since Turin elfbane wasn't around to hand Nargothrond over to Glaurung. The Dwarves of Nogrod wouldn't have been evilly slaughtered. Beleg probably would have gotten a way more heroic death scene. Gwindor would have been a lot happier. *sniff* Stinking elveses... 

Celegorm would have married Luthien, I would have laughed, Huan wouldn't have betrayed him (dogs are evil, either way), and Thingol might even have learned to be a bit nicer to Dwarves from the guy, who was lots less racist (at least with Dwarves). Mablung would have lived for forever, because he's awesome. 

Numenor would have fallen, either way, because it's Atlantis, and that is what Atlantis does. There wouldn't have been as many humans coming over, but there'd still be plenty. Tensions between humans and elves would have existed, but without as many humans taking over the world, mayhaps the elves wouldn't have left so soon, and Sauron would have been easier to kill. 

Plenty of elves could have made Rivendell. The study of moon runes is superly common. A Dunedain type dude from one of the other houses of humans could have played the evil Aragorn's role well enough, and it would be a lot less likely that he'd be marrying his cousin. In the end, Gollum would still be the hero, though, so it looks as if the omission of those humans isn't so large of a deal.


----------



## Illuin (Mar 17, 2009)

> Originally posted by *YayGollum*
> _Numenor would have fallen, either way, because it's Atlantis, and that is what Atlantis does._










I think you covered the history of the world without Bëor Yay. Do we start another?


----------



## Prince of Cats (Mar 17, 2009)

Yeah, how do we want to structure this - Or rather, how do you want to structure this, 

 ?

Maybe Ancalagon decides when it's over and then chooses who satisfied him the most to come up with the next what-if?


----------



## Ancalagon (Mar 18, 2009)

Wonderful start Yay and nice to see you posting I wonder if this thread should be in Glittering Caves or somewhere else as it is entirely theoretical?

As for when does it end, who knows.


----------



## Confusticated (Mar 20, 2009)

Hey Anc, fun topic 

Before anything else I'd have to explain _why_ the first House of Edain didn't make it. I'll say they were attacked coming through the mountains. The survivors decided to go around south but none of them ever made it. 


First, there needs to be Edain. They were vital to the events of the first 3 ages as it happened. One could rewrite them out of those roles and change M-e history to the point that the stories aren't even recognizable, but I wouldn't want to. Huge task, endless possibilities, and last of all I believe the occurrence of Edain are also vital to the eventual fate of Men, in whatever it is Iluvatar has going beyond Arda. But that's another topic. Also - a silmaril has to reach Aman. And Thingol is the only fool not affiliated with the Oath of Feanorinas who had enough leverage and lust for the sil to faciliitate its hijacking from Melkor. Also, only a poor sucker in love with the most beautiful lady in the history of the world would dare attempt to take it. _And_ also, only with an accomplice such as Luthien could said sucker have been successful. 

Haleth's people would enter Beleriand and eventually get to know the elves some. There would be a similar exchange to what happened with Beor's folk in the silm, but these people are different culturally from Beor's folk - so they would go on to keep to themselves much like they did in the Sil. Perhaps some of them had even been fired upon (for hewing trees and hunting beasts) by some avari away east.

Having met with the men from Haleth's people, the Elves would be more ready for the House of Hador. The dwarves would have heard about them from their kin away east. So this Second group, (this larger and friendlier people) would eventually mingle with the elves enough to gain wisdom and all that. 

Finrod, or another elf of comparable character and ability (wait! there are none - it must be Finrod) was the first to meet a group of scragglers from these people. They would have better communication faster than the rest of the Hadorians or the folk of Haleth had with the elves. Their hearts would grow wisest.The friends of Finrod. The _Mellyn-en-Finrod_ or some such.

The Hadorians would live here and there near the elves, Dor-lomin and Dorthonion.

So on with the story...

It would have been another man (one from Marach's people) who rescued Finrod, and to whom Felagund swore an oath. A descendant of that man would end up finding Luthien and playing the basic role of Beren. And it turns out that he shared an ancestor with Beor the old. (Hador and Beor's folk were akin remember, they had been sundered a good while before entering Beleriand).

Anyhow, Haran (whose father was from the folk of Haleth) is in love with Luthien, and Thingol sends him after a silmaril.

Somewhere else in Middle-earth, a descendant of both Houses of Men ends up marrying an elf. So an Earendil type figure does emerge, one who shares all the greatest bloodlines - of Elves and Men and Ainur. Shows up in Valinor with a silmaril.

Things pretty much happen as they did in the Sil, but some lineages and names change. The Edain live in the same places as before, with the Marachians more scattered, to compensate for the lack of Beor's people. 

Now Numenor. Pretty similar to what happens in the book - but lets note that it was from the Mellyn-en-Finrod from which most of the Faithful had descended. 

There it is. Couldn't get more boring. And it feels unbalanced there being two Houses of Men - perhaps I should have thrown in a new theoretical one? Maybe one of those easterling groups like Ulfang's people (and I have always thought this) had the loving welcome of the house of Finarfin and not the first impression of the sons of Feanor when they entered Beleriand their fate might have been otherwise. What if, thanks of Felagund, that it was from Borlach or even Ulfang's people from which came the Faithful in Numenor?


----------



## YayGollum (Mar 21, 2009)

I figured that you wished for this to to be some sort of debate type of thing and, therefore, different from this thread ---> http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?t=6189I'll move this thread to that The Glittering Caves section, though, and merge them if you figure that it makes sense.

Anyways, Yay for the Confusticated person turning this into a debate! Was toting a silmaril truly a requirement for getting to Valinor? I heard of no magic barring those without a silmaril or two in the hold. The route was just really tricky. Anybody with enough skill could have done it. Turgon was the only one who had been sending out ships to try appealing to the Valar. He merely forgot that it's hard to become an awesome sailor when you live in a super secret valley.  Was the silmaril necessary for reminding the Valar that they had a job to do? I don't see why. Send your best sailors and your best persuasive essayists. Easy. 

Secondarily, I'm fairly certain that Luthien could have stolen all three silmarils, if she had been eyeing them. Without a pathetic human around to have to pay attention to, she would have been even more careful. The race of elves, purportedly, is way better at everything, so she wouldn't have been clumsy enough to make Angrist break, and she could have merely flown out of there. Super easy. But then, Beren's presence was the only reason for such a crazy mission, anyways. Thingol wasn't being a fool, at least in this case. He was merely being a racist, even though he apparently always wanted to play the role of Pelias. 

Towards Ulfang's dudes, even if they hadn't betrayed anyone, Mel still would have won. Their betrayal was awesome but mostly just a surprise in a battle that Mel had pretty much already won.


----------



## Confusticated (Mar 21, 2009)

Didn't intend to start any debate Yay. What I posted were just opinions I would go on to base my what-if scenario on.


----------



## Illuin (Mar 22, 2009)

Interesting theories. If I may take the liberty of starting another _what-if_ scenario, here is one I have contemplated numerous times.

*What if everything happened just as it did (i.e. Eärendil and the Silmaril - The War of Wrath - Morgoth’s defeat - Dior, Eluréd and Elurín were slain - Númenor given to Men as a gift - etc.); however, Half-elven princes Elros and Elrond were never born (nor were any other Half-elven)?*



PS - Maybe this would work out a little better if more people added smaller segments as building blocks, rather than presenting entirely new alternate scenarios. Oh well; just an idea .


----------



## YayGollum (Mar 23, 2009)

But, Confusticated lady, debates are fun! As well as, they are what this thread is for, I thought that I read. oh well.  

Towards the Illuin person's topic, what was so great about those dudes? So one superly famous line of humans would have ended. So what? Their were plenty of other humans that got to go to Numenor. Somebody would have been turned into a king. Heroic type characters are crazy, anyways. Always thinking so grandly, considering the careful cowardly. Mayhaps with less overly famous and hot-headed genes, Numenor wouldn't have become an Atlantis? No. That's craziness. Even if the first dude that they elected king was awesome (and I see zero indications of Elros's amount of awesome), they had plenty of time to become crazy. 

Did Elros and slash or his descendants gain any creepy as well as unfair and magical type powerses from their Ainurish and elfish blood? None that I have seen confirmed, but plenty that could be argued over. Numenoreans became superhuman because the gods liked them. Who knows how many of the evil Aragorn's unfair enhancements came from being Numenorean and how many came from some Ainurian and elfish blood? I can't tell. But then, he was better than all of the other Numenorean descendants, but that could merely be because he was a main character.  Check out how watered down his Ainuranness and elfishness were. 

I answered the other half of this question for the Ancalagon person's topic ---> "Plenty of elves could have made Rivendell. The study of moon runes is superly common." What else did they need Elrond for? Oh, he had a Ring Of Power? So what? Plenty could have employed the thing.


----------

