# Lord of the Rings is of Christian origin



## jlday (Aug 15, 2003)

I read a book called "Finding God in Lord of the Rings" it researched the works and
little known writings of J.R.R. Tolkien.
He was a Christian and his works often
referred to our relationship with Jesus
and of Christ's returning.


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## Beorn (Aug 15, 2003)

From the foreword:



> Other arrangements could be devised according to the tastes or views of those who like allegory or topical reference. But I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history, true or feigned, with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse 'applicability' with 'allegory'; but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.



This shows that tLotR is *not* a religous story....


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## HLGStrider (Aug 16, 2003)

Allegory and Christian origins aren't the same thing. . .since Tolkien is a Christian and the book originated from him, I'd say it is basically of Christian origin. 

I don't know what the Finding God book involves, but I don't think it preaches the allegory theory. Just that basic truths can be found within the writing, that there are morals and guildlines, etc.

I think this is very applicable. . .

There used to be a thread on that.

So, it isn't a Christian story in that it is about Christianity, but it is a Christian story in that it can belong to Christianity a lot easier than it could ever belong to atheism or duelism.


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## Gothmog (Aug 16, 2003)

jlday. You might find This to be of some interest. This idea has been well discussed on there.


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## Inderjit S (Aug 16, 2003)

How exciting.


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## HLGStrider (Aug 17, 2003)

Ah. . .another thread given a link to end the discussion. . .or more of move it.


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## Ancalagon (Aug 17, 2003)

And rightly so.

Elgee, if you would like to develop the discussion, why not pop in here for a chat?


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## King Aragorn (Aug 17, 2003)

Beorn, everybody can think what they want. they are entitled to their own opinions. Is the foreward you put from the second edition or what? 


jlday, where can you get that book? It sounds interesting


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## jallan (Aug 17, 2003)

King Aragorn posted:


> Beorn, everybody can think what they want. they are entitled to their own opinions.


Of course. And others can disagree with them. What is your point?


> Is the foreward you put from the second edition or what?


Yes. It is a section usually quoted when people start explaingin what _The Lord of the Rings_ really means as though the story itself were not what it meant.

There are some reviews at Customer Reviews: Finding God in the Lord of the Rings which mostly find this book mediocre at best.



Tolkien's letters provide his own feelings about his work, including many comments about the extent to which it is in some ways particularly Christian.


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## HLGStrider (Aug 17, 2003)

> Elgee, if you would like to develop the discussion, why not pop in here for a chat?



If I can find the time.

Sore throat tonight, blah. . .

I haven't read the book, though it does interest me, so I don't like to comment on it. . .but from what I understand of it, I can see where it could find Christianity within its work.

My Christianity comes out even when I try to write it into a world without it (the Star Wars fan fics I once tried to do).


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## jlday (Aug 18, 2003)

King Aragorn,
You can get the book "Finding God in Lord of the Rings" at a local Christian Bookstore


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## jimmyboy (Aug 26, 2003)

This is interesting. Honestly, I have no desire to read the book we're talking about, but I have been podering the idea of writing down my own thoughts on the matter. I can't help but be amazed at how much "bible" there is in the Middle-earth books. There's just no question that Tolkien was educated in his beliefs, because the Hebrew-Christian God is Eru Illuvatar. JRR just took his character as he understood him and had him be the Creator of Ea and Arda. 

In fact, this topic has re-inspired me to go ahead with this, and start writing down my thoughts. I have a feeling that this could turn into a rather large project, but at least I want to get started. Good timing too, cause I just started my fourth reading of the Sil a few days ago.


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## Eledhwen (Aug 26, 2003)

I have just read and reviewed Tolkien in Perspective (in case I take it off my sig.) which is a very balanced book on the subject. The writer, Greg Wright, also writes excellent stuff on Tolkien at www.hollywoodjesus.com where he has an entire section dedicated to Lord of the Rings.

There is also a thread here quoting the letters of JRRT, many of which have Christian content.


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## FoolOfATook (Aug 26, 2003)

Sure, LOTR had origins in Christianity, but one should remember that it also had origins in Norse mythology, _Beowulf_, Tolkien's driving interest in languages and Philology, Old English poetry, _The Kalevala_, the works of Andrew Lang and George MacDonald, his experiences in World War I...

You get the point.


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## HLGStrider (Aug 27, 2003)

I'd say we are discussing two things influence and intentional meaning.

Influence is undeniable. To say that Tolkien didn't write with a Christian influence is to say he wrote ignoring a good deal of his life.

Intentional meaning is a vague term, if you don't mean allegory or moral. He did write characters who behave within Judeo-Christian values. Whether this was intentional or just a product of accident is another thing.


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## Beyond Wisdom (Aug 28, 2003)

What does it matter? The man was a christian, of course that will reflect in his work, but that in no way means the book is based around anything remotely religious, and it is folly to say such. Enjoy the work, it's bad enough you can't escape religious fanatics here, but now there picking around in your fantasy world as well?


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## HLGStrider (Aug 29, 2003)

I don't think discussing a possible influence, which you admit will be there, is religious fanatacism. What we are basically discussing is the extent of it. . .

And I think religious fanatacism can be a very good thing if it isn't violent. (Which is a major qualifier).


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## ltas (Aug 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> *And I think religious fanatacism can be a very good thing if it isn't violent. (Which is a major qualifier). *



Fanaticism (Latin 'fanaticus' - inspired by a deity, frenzied) is rarely a 'good thing'. Fanatics are uncritical about their belief system, their intense devotion to it and to convincing others to believe the same leads often to truth distortion.


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## Eledhwen (Aug 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Beyond Wisdom _
> *What does it matter? The man was a christian, of course that will reflect in his work, but that in no way means the book is based around anything remotely religious, and it is folly to say such. Enjoy the work, it's bad enough you can't escape religious fanatics here, but now there picking around in your fantasy world as well? *


Tolkien was inspired by a Deity - THE Deity. He freely admitted that. He had a time of Christian devotion every day and freely shared his faith with genuine enquirers. If you read the Letters of JRR Tolkien, Beyond Wisdom, you will learn much about the man. I wish I was as fanatical as him; maybe my own writing would reflect it.


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## HLGStrider (Aug 30, 2003)

> Fanatics are uncritical about their belief system, their intense devotion to it and to convincing others to believe the same leads often to truth distortion



My personal idea of fanatacism is making something the major, driving force of your life. I'm getting this mainly from the way it is used in common speech, not the meaning. We call someone a fanatic when they are obsessed with something, when they take something to an extreme. 

I think most people are uncritical of their belief system, no matter what it is. 

The way BW is using the word suggests that discussing religion at all as relates to this subject is fanatical. Using that definition fanatical is a good thing.

Using the definition a lot of people use (Being strong and determined in your beliefs) is also a good thing.

You bring up uncritical. I find a lot of people assume those who believe strongly don't consider their beliefs, but it is often the opposite way. I find that those who don't believe strongly are those who haven't looked into their beliefs, partly because they are afraid to, I suppose, partly because they don't care.


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## Beyond Wisdom (Aug 31, 2003)

I agree with Itlas, save religion for the church.

" Finding God in The Lord of the Rings " 

Now why would anyone but a religious fanatic want to find God inside Lord of the Rings? Was the point I was making. Shortly before the release of The Matrix Reloaded, a book was written of the same nature about it, and I saw it advertised, and I couldn't help thinking to myself, is this some behind the scenes way to perhaps broaden the horizons of contemporary religious folk? 
I can see it now, pudgy old Father Bob is over for supper when he comes across little Billy watching a rather action packed fight scene with heads flying off, but Billy what in God’s name are you watching my dear boy he says, oh this is ok Father he responds, because those Orcs are from hell and Aragorn is Jesus reborn! 

I mean…


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## Eledhwen (Aug 31, 2003)

The trouble with trying to find God in The Matrix, is that you have to be a Christian to understand what such explanations are getting at. To some extent, this is true of Lord of the Rings, but the difference is that Tolkien's work is the best there is at suspending the reader's disbelief (as opposed to the reader choosing to suspend their own disbelief for the sake of the story). It also creates a spiritual hunger for the values seen therein. In words from Tolkien's AElfwine story, on seeing the lights of Elvenhome from a distance:

"then came there music very gently over the waters and it was laden with unimagined longing, that AElfwine and his comrades leant upon their oars and wept softly each for his heart's half-remembered hurts, and memory of fair things long lost, and each for the thirst that is in every child of Men for the flawless loveliness they seek and do not find."


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## Eriol (Aug 31, 2003)

Aren't we all Tolkien fanatics here?

I think this simple observation shows how the word "fanatic" can have good connotations. It is only when put together with "religious" that it becomes more of an insult than an observation.

After all, God commanded us to be fanatics about Him; if you believe in the God of the Bible, you should very much be a fanatic, and even more, a worshipper. "You will love the Lord thy God with all your might and all your heart and all your soul" (or something like that).

If we were to "save religion for the church", we would be discarding it. There is no system of beliefs, not even atheism, which can be kept quiet in a little corner of one's mind. 



> _Posted by BeyondWisdom_
> 
> Now why would anyone but a religious fanatic want to find God inside Lord of the Rings?



Er... to see if He is there? I often wonder if there is some way to perhaps broaden the horizons of contemporary non-religious folk...


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## Confusticated (Aug 31, 2003)

> He was a Christian and his works often
> referred to our relationship with Jesus
> and of Christ's returning.


I don't know of these references to _Christ's returning_. Where are they? I wonder if you are thinking of the belief spoken of by Andreth that Iluvatarwill enter the world? At any rate, I'd argue this is not a 'return', and point out that this is not 'often'. But I am not sure if this is what you have in mind.

Will you give some examples of the references to 'our relationship with Jesus'? I am not sure what you have in mind here.

Now as for LotR being of Christian origin, I don't have anything that hasn't already been posted here. JRRT was Christian and he was the origin of LotR, and that's that. To me this qualifies his book as being of Christian origin.

I am not familiar with _Finding God in The Lord of the Rings_, but I can say that I do not see how LotR should directly take a person to Christianity. That is not to say it does not happen. However, I can see how some of his other writings can cause a person to believe there is a God.

When this happens to a reader, I would think that reader more apt to have his own belief in Iluvatar/God rather than join in some organized religion such as the various christian ones. Even though I see it this way, I would not be surpised to learn that Tolkien's writings made first a believer in God/Iluvatar in a person who then moved into Christianity... probably having done so with the belief that Iluvatar is the Elvish name of Christ. Or something to that effect, and from that, getting a desire to learn more about Christ, and share company with like-faithed people.

My own opinion is that JTTR's writings is a better source for causing faith, than is going to church. To me this is a source that is 'above' organized religion.


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## Eledhwen (Aug 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Nóm _
> *My own opinion is that JTTR's writings is a better source for causing faith, than is going to church. To me this is a source that is 'above' organized religion. *


Spot on. I have a friend - a Christian - who manages an off-licence (liquor store). He always has people coming in to tell him their troubles, even though many don't know about his faith, and people are led to Jesus by going to the off-licence. People enter a Tolkien book expecting a good read. They may just find God; because Tolkien's work lets Him in through the back door.


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## HLGStrider (Aug 31, 2003)

I don't think the issue would be direct allegory. I think it would be partly symbolism and partly moral character.

The moral character within the books is definitely what we now know as Judeo-Christian. Christian virtues of love, mercy, generosity, and self-sacrifice run rampant through the pages.

I don't think Tolkien could've helped this. It just came naturally to him to make his heros what he considered heroic, which would've been heroic in a self-sacfrificing moral way. 

I think you could base a book on this principle.

Also, I think Christianity, despite its modern day critics (not just modern day, but during all centuries it has had critics) is a heroic religion in that it involves courage and self-sacrifice and putting others before yourself. Those are things everyone wants to see in a hero, be they Christian or not. Therefore, you could even make a book finding God in the Sorcerors Stone (Though I find H. Potter more lucky than heroic, Ron Weasly was very heroic in parts of that book. . .more so than Harry.).



> and I couldn't help thinking to myself, is this some behind the scenes way to perhaps broaden the horizons of contemporary religious folk?



I don't think so. I've never felt I needed my horizons broadened. However, there is a point that a lot of modern day entertainment has become antagonistic to the Christian world view. In general, entertainment nowadays tend to make fun of Christians with stereotypes (Your father Brown bit), just ignore them, or go off in a world view that most Christians would be annoyed by. 

When we find a movie that in anyway supports our world view or is even basically clean there is going to be a hullabaloo. HORRAY! We can watch this without feeling like our beliefs are being mocked or trampled upon! We don't have to fastforward through sex-scenes if our kids are in the room. Every other word isn't a swear word! There are redeeming qualities.

I read a review on the Matrix Movie book just yesterday in a free publication put out by Klove radio. It says basically that the writer is jumping at a chance to expound on themes that may or may not be there.

You have in the Matrix a character who dies and comes back and is basically redemptive (So I've heard. I never got around to watching that movie, though all my friends like to rave about it).

This can be seen in two ways:
Immitating Christ in a flattering way 
or
Immitating Christ to try and pervert the story.

The Wheel of Time series could be seen as an example of the second. I didn't notice til about book 8, but the main character has been wounded in the side, both hands, and now has a crown of swords. . .not so subtle Christ immitator. . .but hardly a Christ like character otherwise.

I think it is such a huge story that it will work into our entertainment and literature (The Grapes of Wrath is full of Biblical references and paralells, I could go on.).

I don't think Tolkien did this. I do think he has a world view that is Christian, and I think it is something worth discussing.


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## Beyond Wisdom (Aug 31, 2003)

I must say such intelligent people you all are, very good responses, even if they do disagree with my own, I commend all of you. 

In saying there is Christianity in Lord of the Rings, perhaps, but is it really Christianity? Or just similarities with the belief systems of Christians and the Bible itself, now before everyone jumps me by saying see! Similar means same as, not is, so you could very much have a story of good and evil, with spiritual presence, strong connections with nature, that very much have the same appeal, that people enjoyed in the Bible and in there faith, but that does not mean the stories are in anyway connected by anything more than those “Similarities" If that were the case every great story of good and evil would be somehow a part of Christianity, what you must remember, is that the Bible, God, the Devil, and the whole religion intertwined, is the greatest story of good and evil that there is, so perhaps it is only natural to compare stories we find great today with the greatest story we know. But that is all, there is no hidden agenda, there is no secret message inside of those great books, that will lead you to find god, perhaps make you more spiritual and look at nature and all forms of life with greater respect, but since when does that have to be called Christian or religious? Can you not just be a good hearted person? Tolkien said himself, he did not write stories about other stories, Tolkien wrote about Middle-Earth all his life, created it from top to bottom, and it is a shame to discredit his work, by saying it was somehow shaped along other premises, and not of his accord. I believe it was a classic tale of good versus evil, and there are many things you could compare, just like with all other stories of the same basis, but I believe that’s as far as it goes.


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## Eriol (Aug 31, 2003)

I agree, BW. However, the "classic story of good against evil" can't help but being Christian when written by a man such as Tolkien. We can discuss the very subtle hints that Tolkien used to pay homage to Christianity, such as the dates of the Downfall of Sauron and of the setting out of the Fellowship; but that is not the main point (or at least not _my_ main point) when we discuss God in Tolkien's world. 

To me, God in these books is much more than small trivia-like observations. It is something much clearer and (that terrible word) _obvious_ to a Christian when reading the book. Was it deliberate? Who knows? It's not as if there were only two options, allegory or zilch. In my own readings, I see that LotR is NOT written with a "hidden message" in mind -- as Tolkien made clear. However, there is much of the Christian ethos, too much to be ignored. I never thought about "Christ-like" figures, such as sometimes is said of Gandalf, Aragorn and Frodo; but I find it is hard to believe that Tolkien (a much more devout Christian than myself) did not notice it. Even the title of the third book is a known Christian theme. He called Elendil a "Noachian" character. When I first read the books nothing was furthest from my mind than this kind of reasoning; but once it was pointed out, I find it is very, very convincing. 

In the end, there is "Finding Christianity in the Lord of the Rings" and "Finding _God_ in the Lord of the Rings". I don't think there is any reasonable doubt that God is there. Christianity is perhaps more hard to see, but once you get acquainted with Tolkien the man and with Christianity itself the signs are very numerous.


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## Landroval (Aug 31, 2003)

Humans have an ability, and perhaps a need, to look at something and see things that aren't there. We need to find order within the noise. Look up at the clouds and what do you see?

We all tend to "see" the evidence that supports our own personal agenda.


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## Eriol (Sep 1, 2003)

Very true. However, it works both ways; humans have a tendency to not see what they don't want to see, even if it is there.


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## FoolOfATook (Sep 3, 2003)

For the record:



> _The Lord of the Rings_ is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconciously so at first, but conciously in the revision.


-J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter 142


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## HLGStrider (Sep 3, 2003)

Which rather settles the arguement about influence. . .and Tolkien himself has settled the half about allegory. . .so what do you want to talk about now?

Thanks for the quote finding.


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## Lantarion (Sep 4, 2003)

Well, I saw some juicy sentences to nitpick.. 


> *Originally posted by Eriol*
> I think this simple observation shows how the word "fanatic" can have good connotations.


I would have to disagree. The very nature of fanaticism makes it negative, although not 'evil'; belief or interest that has reached _extreme_, i.e. too radical, proportions. The way we use the word 'fanatic', as Elgee said, obviously does not mean the same as it would in a political history paper; in that snese I do like to think of myself as a Tolkien 'fanatic' ; but certainly not in the actual sense, which I find connotates with violence (if not always physical). 


> *Originally posted by HLGStrider*
> The moral character within the books is definitely what we now know as Judeo-Christian. Christian virtues of love, mercy, generosity, and self-sacrifice run rampant through the pages.


You are basically right, but elaborating on Beyond Wisdom's point, I think branding the virtues found in the books 'Judeo-Christian' is a babystep out of line; ancient Greek philosophers had very simliar notions of virtues and good life, long before the events of Christ's life are said to have occured; and a person doesn't have to be a Christian in order to believe in these virtues (in fact they are almost universal). the fact that Christianity has donned them and praises them does not make them 'Christian' virtues. 

I agree wholeheartedly with Landroval (even though Eriol makes a very witty and accurate counter-argument ); but the fact that the reader creates the 'allegory' and 'metaphor' in the stories himself (as Tolkien put it, as 'applicability') doesn't make it any less enjoyable to look for and find that symbolism there. And yet if the reader cannot read the LotR simply as a gripping, epic, beautiful, complex tale then they need to zone out for a bit and enjoy the story as a story, not as a vessel for deeper meaning.


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## Eriol (Sep 4, 2003)

Well, people use the word "fanatic" and its shorter cousin "fan" in positive contexts. I don't think it is built in _the nature_ of fanaticism to be bad. If you are fanatic about a good thing, then it is a good fanaticism. 

A good parallel is the difference between a "habit" and an "addiction". You can have many kinds of habits, good and bad, but an "addiction" carries a whole world of negative connotations. 

This is really a semantic discussion . If you want to define fanaticism as inherently bad, and related to violence, then you are picking one of the senses of the word and accepting it as the "true" sense. I have no problem with that; but then I refuse BW's sentence "why would anyone but a religious fanatic..." Lots of people who are religious but not "fanatic" (in your sense, Lantarion) find God -- the Christian God -- in the Lord of the Rings. 

As for the virtues, well, mercy was NOT a virtue according to paganism. It was seen as weakness. The virtues of paganism were courage, justice, temperance -- at least according to Aristotle. We don't see any defence of mercy or love (agape) in paganism. 

Mercy is, of course, to withhold proper punishment; it is at odds with justice, and only love can combine the two. 

This is an old line of reasoning in the debate about the "Christian-ness" of LotR; people who don't see it claim that the Christian virtues are the universal virtues. Well, they are today, after Christians converted the world . They were not the universal virtues before Christ came along. Not that Christ revoked the "old" virtues, but the three theological virtues, the center of Christian virtue -- faith, hope, agape -- were not advocated by paganism.

"The virtues of paganism were splendid vices", as St. Augustine said; and therefore to claim that the two sets of virtues are the same is odd.

It is the Christian world-view that is so central to LotR. A pagan would not recognize its author as a fellow pagan. The mercy shown to Gollum would be seen as folly. And so on.


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## Lantarion (Sep 5, 2003)

Yes, I agree; what is your point? I did say '*almost* universal', with possibilities like your example in mind, that opinions tend to differ. 
But this is taking nitpicking to a whole new level; I think we can agree to disagree on the definition of fanaticism, and leave it at that.


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## Eriol (Sep 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lantarion _
> *...ancient Greek philosophers had very similar notions of virtues and good life, long before the events of Christ's life are said to have occured*



That was my point; I think this assertion is wrong .

Agreed to disagree on fanaticism then.


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## ltas (Sep 8, 2003)

It has been very interesting to read your views on the matter. Thank you for your thoughts, I agree with a lot of what you have said. However, there are some points here that are debatable  …


I would add something about fanaticism…


> _Originally posted by HLGStrider_
> My personal idea of fanatacism is making something the major, driving force of your life. I'm getting this mainly from the way it is used in common speech, not the meaning.* We call someone a fanatic when they are obsessed with something, when they take something to an extreme.
> 
> I think most people are uncritical of their belief system, no matter what it is.
> ...


One could interpret this in the way that the fanatic sees his religious (political) teachings as an absolute truth that should be followed in life. But how do we know *which one* of the thousand different fanatics, who *all* claim to know the truth (or, as Eriol put it: ''are fanatical about a good thing'') really does know the 'Right Way'? After all, they’ve all considered their beliefs and are all fanatical about a good thing?

On the other hand, someone who is 'only' a believer, is still open to criticism and new ideas and is capable of changing or modifying his/her beliefs.



> _Originally posted by HLGStrider_
> So, it isn't a Christian story in that it is about Christianity, but it is a Christian story in that it can belong to Christianity a lot easier than it could ever belong to atheism or duelism.
> 
> and
> ...





> _Originally posted by Lantarion_
> … ancient Greek philosophers had very simliar notions of virtues and good life, long before the events of Christ's life are said to have occured; and a person doesn't have to be a Christian in order to believe in these virtues (in fact they are almost universal). The fact that Christianity has donned them and praises them does not make them 'Christian' virtues.


Exactly! Virtues like mercy, the willingness to sacrifice oneself for the good cause, bravery, love or generosity are not characteristic only to Christian philosophy. It is difficult to agree with the thought that those ideals can be associated with Christianity more easily then with any other religion or atheistic value system.


> _Originally posted by Eriol_
> As for the virtues, well, mercy was NOT a virtue according to paganism. It was seen as weakness. We don't see any defence of mercy or love (agape) in paganism.


Prometheus (a half-god) suffered eternal torments (very much like Christ) for his love and mercy for humans. (The Greek legend of steeling the fire). Religions older than Christianity have sermoned the value of same virtues. Those virtues where not wakened by Christ, they have always been there.

And now there’s a question if, despite the author’s intentions, a non-fanatic should recognise Christianity in Lord of the Rings… 



> _Originally posted by jimmyboy_
> There's just no question that Tolkien was educated in his beliefs, because the Hebrew-Christian God is Eru Illuvatar.


Why not Allah? Why not any other Creator from some other religion? Why not any other God who, like all gods, demands absolute obedience and punishes those who do not follow his commands? If we leave aside the knowledge that Tolkien was a Christian, we can, as Lantarion already said, find many similarities between various religious (philosophical) systems and the one created by Tolkien. Also, unlike Christianity (monotheism), Middle-earth religion is a polytheistical religion – there are many equal gods under the rule of one.



> _Originally posted by Eriol_
> In the end, there is "Finding Christianity in the Lord of the Rings" and "Finding God in the Lord of the Rings". I don't think there is any reasonable doubt that God is there. Christianity is perhaps more hard to see, but once you get acquainted with Tolkien the man and with Christianity itself the signs are very numerous.


In my opinion God's presence can not be sensed in ''Lord of the Rings''. Yes, there are certain virtues and values in the book, but those can be associated with any other philosophy just as well as with Christianity. Also, it is strongly suggested in the entire story that *God is not there* – mortals are left alone and are forced to deal with Evil all by themselves.

Yes, we can sometimes see God act in the course of other Middle-earth legends, but that could be _any god_ and he isn’t really identifiable as a Christian one.


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## Eriol (Sep 8, 2003)

"Any God" does not create the world out of nothing; only the Jewish/Christian/Islamic God did that. And Eru.

"Any God" does not govern the whole course of history through providence -- as Gandalf stated about Eru, and as Finrod claimed in the Athrabeth. Only the Jewish/Christian/Islamic God did that.

Sure, Allah can be said to be in the Lord of the Rings -- but mainly because he is the same God as the Christian one. Christians and Muslims differ on some properties of God, but not on the really important stuff -- like what I have said above, and like God's love for mankind (another non-existent component of prior mythologies -- men were "the playthings of the gods").

Tolkien was very clear to point out that the Valar are _not_ Gods, in the Letters, in the Athrabeth, in many writings. He dropped the nomenclature "Gods" very early in the composition of the legendarium. They are angels -- another very Jewish/Christian/Muslim notion.

"Why not any other Creator from another religion", you ask -- well, because the other religions simply don't have Creators. They have Shapers. "In the beginning there was the Chaos", could be the first line of a greek "Genesis". "Chaos" is not "nothing". The notion of creation _ex nihilo_ is abhorrent to greek thought. I am more familiar with greek mythology than with others, but I never heard of any mythology that had a supreme God who created the world out of nothing. This sentence, "out of nothing", is very important. 

I know some people try to identify these kinds of things in other mythologies, and I usually wince at their attempts. Like the Prometheus example. Jewish mythology has a very clear analogous to Prometheus, and it is not Christ -- it is Lucifer, the "bearer of light" ("Lux" "fer" -- help me Lantarion!). It is Satan. So the analogy between Prometheus and Christ is very odd. Christ was not "a half-god" -- he is GOD. Christ did not suffer "eternal torments". Prometheus defied the Gods; Christ was "the Lamb of God", and he did nothing except what the Father wanted him to do. The Gods tortured Prometheus; we, men, tortured Christ. 

I find this comparisons as quaint as the Gandalf/Aragorn/Frodo analogies with Christ. It is a good example of what Landroval mentioned, "trying to see something that is not there". And trying very hard... 

Finally, about the virtues:



> Exactly! Virtues like mercy, the willingness to sacrifice oneself for the good cause, bravery, love or generosity are not characteristic only to Christian philosophy. It is difficult to agree with the thought that those ideals can be associated with Christianity more easily then with any other religion or atheistic value system.



Can you quote any pagan philosopher on mercy? On love (agape)? 

The Christian virtues were seen as _weakness_ by Aristotle and Plato. Not neutral, or optional, but weak. Perhaps it is "difficult to agree" with this, but can you offer some reasons?

These virtues can be associated with the other religions and atheistic value systems _today_. They were new when Christianity began; and they were a good reason for Christianity's popularity, by the way. "See how they love each other", people said of Christians. The reaction was not "ah, they are just following Aristotle -- it's old hat". 

There were two main ethical systems in paganism: Stoicism and Epicurism. Compare them with Christianity. Really, people don't realize what a change was effected by Christianity. 

I stand by what I said, Itas; the Christian virtues are not the pagan virtues. They have some new things; and these new things are very noticeable in LotR. 



> Yes, we can sometimes see God act in the course of other Middle-earth legends, but that could be any god and he isn’t really identifiable as a Christian one.



I think He is _very clearly_ identifiable as the Christian one. And we can check that easily. Can you offer another candidate? I already listed the theological similarities between the two; I'd like to see you try to do it with another god. Compare Eru's interventions with the guys at the Iliad and Odyssey.


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## HLGStrider (Sep 8, 2003)

> Prometheus (a half-god) suffered eternal torments (very much like Christ) for his love and mercy for humans.



Exactly, he was shown mercy and punished. . .

though, he wasn't punished for showing mercy, exactly, he was punished for teaching human's how to cheet. He taught them to decieve Zues with sacrifices. Still, he was hardly a Christ like figure.


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