# Greatest versus Chief



## Ithrynluin (Jun 5, 2007)

Galadriel versus Elrond



> _Unfinished Tales: The History of Galadriel and Celeborn; The Ellesar_
> Wielding the Elessar all things grew fair about Galadriel, until the coming of the Shadow to the Forest. But afterwards when *Nenya, chief of the Three*," was sent to her by Celebrimbor, she needed it (as she thought) no more, and she gave it to Celebrían her daughter, and so it came to Arwen and to Aragorn who was called Elessar.





> _The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King; Grey Havens_
> There was Gildor and many fair Elven folk; and there to Sam’s wonder rode Elrond and Galadriel. Elrond wore a mantle of grey and had a star upon his forehead, and a silver harp was in his hand, and upon his finger was a ring of gold with a great blue stone, Vilya, mightiest of the Three. But Galadriel sat upon a white palfrey and was robed all in glimmering white, like clouds about the Moon; for she herself seemed to shine with a soft light. On her finger was Nenya, the ring wrought of mithril, that bore a single white stone flickering like a frosty star. Riding slowly behind on a small grey pony, and seeming to nod in his sleep, was Bilbo himself.



How do you understand this distinction between chief and mightiest? Do you think this is merely an error? Note also that after the Three were forged and Sauron revealed himself, Celebrimbor came first to Galadriel for counsel, not to Gil-galad and/or Elrond.

I'm also wondering about who of these two could be considered the greater on the whole. 



> _Unfinished Tales; The Istari_
> Galadriel, *the greatest of the Eldar surviving in Middle-earth*, was potent mainly in wisdom and goodness, as a director or counsellor in the struggle, unconquerable in resistance (especially in mind and spirit) but incapable of punitive action.



In several other places, Galadriel is also called the greatest of Elven women, and is numbered among the three greatest elves, alongside Luthien and Feanor, whereas there is no trace of Elrond in any such passages.



> _The Letters of JRRT; # 246_
> In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, *especially Elrond*.



Why this '_especially_ Elrond'? Is this an indication that Elrond is greater or perhaps that he would have greater chances of battling Sauron since Elrond himself was part Maia (1/16th)

Gandalf versus Saruman



> _Unfinished Tales; The Istari_
> Of this Order the number is unknown; but of those that came to the North of Middle-earth, where there was most hope (because of the remnant of the Dunedain and of the Eldar that abode there), the chiefs was five. The first to come was one of noble mien and bearing, with raven hair, and a fair voice, and he was clad in white; great skill he had in works of hand, and *he was regarded by well-nigh all, even by the Eldar, as the head of the Order.*





> Saruman is said (e.g. by Gandalf himself) to have been *the chief of the Istari* – that is, higher in Valinórean stature than the others. Gandalf is evidently the next in the order. Radagast is presented as a person of much less power and wisdom.





> NOTE 1
> In the The Two Towers III 8 it is said that Saruman was "accounted by many the chief of the Wizards," and at the Council of Elrond (The Fellowship of the Ring II 2) Gandalf explicitly stated this: "Saruman the White is the greatest of my order."





> But also to be remarked are the coming of the Istari to Middle-earth at different times; Círdan's perception that Gandalf was the greatest of them; Saruman's knowledge that Gandalf possessed the Red Ring, and his jealousy;



As you can see, we have many conflicting passages that can be interpreted in a number of ways. 

Was Gandalf more powerful than Saruman, all in all? Is it possible that Saruman was only designated as the head/chief of the order of the Istari because he was a Maia of Aulë and it was deigned by the Valar one of the people of Aulë would be the best choice as a leader of a movement against Sauron, also a Maia of Aulë?

***

I also added a poll just for fun. I am inclined to vote for one of the options more than for the others, but my opinion is not wholly formed, so perhaps a lively discussion will make things clearer...


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## Annaheru (Jun 5, 2007)

As for the Elrond/Galadriel question I can think of something that might help explain the seeming inconsistency:

Elrond was much younger than Galadriel. Perhaps the issue is not one of Latent ability, but an issue of Galadriel having used her abilities longer and thereby having greater usable power. After all, both Galadriel and Elrond were figures of wisdom and counsel, and the Silmarilion (somewhere) tells us that the wisdom of the Eldar waxes from age to age.

In any case I believe age was the reason Celebrimbor did not go to Gilgalad or Elrond, since the latter was his junior and the former was -at best- his peer. So he went to his elder, Galadriel. 


I haven't considered the Gandalf/Saruman aspect enough to venture any opinions. However, I'm hoping for plenty of posts and quotes to save me the trouble of finding them for myself .


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## Ithrynluin (Jun 9, 2007)

Was hoping for a bit more input, actually...

I voted for the option I had in mind from the beginning: Galadriel greater than Elrond, Gandalf greater than Saruman, though I would say the difference in power between was very, very small. 

Still, the distinction between chief (Nenya) as opposed to mightiest (Vilya), and how mightiest or greatest is not always equated with chief, is interesting and a bit puzzling. I suppose the greatest may not always be recognized as such, or even if they are, they don't wish to hold the highest positions of power. Gandalf's humility comes to mind here...Also, could it be possible Celebrimbor presented Galadriel with a collection of three rings, and she handpicked Nenya out of the bunch herself (rather than Celebrimbor giving her Nenya purposefully), perhaps as a sign of longing for the Sea and, by association, the West. The Ring _was_ said to increase her latent desire for the Sea...

I guess I could use this reasoning to justify my picks: Galadriel greater than Elrond, but did not get to wield the greatest ring, Gandalf greater than Saruman, but was not chief of the Istari.


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## Turgon (Jun 9, 2007)

Just noticed this thread... actually just remembered, read it when Ithryn first posted it... forgot about it. Such an air-head!?! 

Basically I just wanted to stick up for Elrond a little, as I always feel Elrond is rather underrated due to the fact he plays such a small part in the Silmarillion. It's always seemed to me when it comes to judging certain characters in the legendarium, especially the more long-lived kind, that characters not involved in the the cut and thrust of pre-first-age goings on are somewhat over-looked. I am not saying that you are doing this Ithryn, far from it, not at all, never in a million years and such... In regards to this thread I would say Glad is greater than Elrond in _most_ regards. Actually I remember a thread that went something along the lines of 'Who in the Third Age could stand against the Balrog of Moria' and when I mentioned Galadriel as a contender, I got a mixed response. Meh... but I'm waffling. 

With regards to the 'especially Elrond' quote. I actually gave this a lot of thought during the judging of the recent debate, where this letter came up. Most of my thoughts are not really related to this discussion however. I think that this next phrase is used both in the Hobbit, and Lord of the Rings, and I think it show something of Elrond's quality - which is that 'Elrond was judged great amongst both elves and men.' My words, not Tolkien's, too lazy to look things up. Yet I do think it comes, partly, down to Elrond's ancestry. This chap seems related to almost anybody who _is_ anybody. He had a real claim to being the last High King of the Noldor, more so than Gil-galad, perhaps, if we take Orodreth as being Gil's father and apply certain antiquated feudal laws. He also made the mighty Aragorn, by far the greatest Dunadan since Tuor in my opinon, look like a peasant (being Elros brother I mean - although the Exiles seem to have a direct line from Elros - unlike the Kings of Numenor after... Silmarien? A concious decision on Tolkien part maybe?). Add Thingol to the mix, and you already have two of the three great elf-kings of yore as predecesors. (Ingwe, Finwe, Elwe) And then we have Luthien/Melian. Yet Elrond had a wisdom that seemed to rival Gandalf's, and in that respect, I do see him as greater than Galadriel, I do think he was wiser. Um... waffling again. Sorry.

Anyway, I think Tolkien rated Elrond extremely highly.

As for Gandalf and Saruman. Of course this is just a quick biased opinion, but Gandalf was so much greater. In fact I will go so far as to say that Gandalf was the greatest of all the Maiar, I mean, what is Eonwe in comparison? Of course we don't have Eonwe's opinion's on Hobbits, Pipeweed, or Barliman Butterbur's ale, but Gandalf's greatness comes from what for want of a better word, his 'humanity?' could be 'elfanity', 'dwarfanity'... but that doesn't matter with Gandalf, and this again is one of his great strengths. A trait he seems to share with Ulmo, who again in my own opinion is the greatest of the Valar. But then again I've always seen Gandalf's seemingly worse trait as his best, which his is lack of confidence, and it was this lack of confidence I've always thought, which was one of the reasons Saruman took charge of the White Council. It was also this lack which, again in my opinion, led to his strategy during the War of the Ring.

Anyhoo, these are just my own subjective opinions on these questions. Sorry for any inconsistancies, writing swiftly and without thinking... as always.

EDIT: Wrote this without seeing your last post Ithrynluin... didn't take any of that into account sadly. Also I did write something about 'greatest vs chief' but it didn't make much sense. Deleted it. Also wanted to vote for 'Elrond and Galadriel were equals, Gandalf was the man.' But messed it up.


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## Ithrynluin (Jun 9, 2007)

Good post, Turgon. 

Don't worry about being biased, I certainly am when it comes to Lady G.  Not that I don't think she's one of the greatest elves, independent of that.

Also, I agree with you that post-First Age elves tend to get overlooked, but let me tell you that I view Elrond and Cirdan, along with Galadriel, as one of the greatest Elves ever. In fact, I voted for them in the Greatest Elf poll, in addition to Luthien and Celebrimbor. That last one was mostly to spite Feanor... 

Even though I consider Galadriel to be greater, I would say that she was not more powerful than Elrond in all respects. You mention Elrond being wiser, and this is probably the one quality I would tend to dispute, if only because Galadriel's wisdom is so emphasized through the legendarium, e.g. that she was wiser than Feanor, her wisdom increased with the passing of years, and was full grown at the time of the LOTR. Soooo, I'd say Galadriel was at least as wise as Elrond, but that he had a greater power of foresight.

Okay, I think I'll end my rant here, though it was an interesting one, so thanks for providing me an opportunity for it!


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## Gothmog (Jun 11, 2007)

Ok lets start with looking further than just those in Middle-earth. Who is the chief of the Valar?

Manwe. However, when we look for the mightiest or the greatest we find different answers.

Aule was the greatest in smithcraft, Tulkas mightiest with his hands, Eonwe herald of Manwe (and only a Maia) was mightiest in arms.

Let us look now as two of the quotes



> Unfinished Tales; The Istari
> Galadriel, the greatest of the Eldar surviving in Middle-earth, was potent mainly in wisdom and goodness, as a director or counsellor in the struggle, unconquerable in resistance (especially in mind and spirit) but incapable of punitive action.





> The Letters of JRRT; # 246
> In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond.



And the question


> Why this 'especially Elrond'? Is this an indication that Elrond is greater or perhaps that he would have greater chances of battling Sauron since Elrond himself was part Maia (1/16th)



To answer this question we need to look at the difference in the two people. Elrond was at one time the herald of Gil-galad and went to the war of the Last Alliance in Mordor. He fought in that war and was present when Sauron was thrown down. In short, he was a warror and well able to use a weapon in attacking. Galadriel on the other hand was not, as the quote says, she was "incapable of punitive action". The One Ring was made for the purpose of domination and to wield it needs a person capable of forcable domination of others. This is why Elrond would be placed as more likely to be able to wield the One than Galadriel.



> As you can see, we have many conflicting passages that can be interpreted in a number of ways.
> 
> Was Gandalf more powerful than Saruman, all in all? Is it possible that Saruman was only designated as the head/chief of the order of the Istari because he was a Maia of Aulë and it was deigned by the Valar one of the people of Aulë would be the best choice as a leader of a movement against Sauron, also a Maia of Aulë?



This is a more difficult question. Indeed Gandalf did name Saruman "The Greatest of my order". However, both Cirdan and Galadriel saw matters differently and the person least likley to accurately judge someones relative greatness is the person of himself.

Also in UT. we can find a view of Saruman on this matter.



> Unfinished Tales: Concerning Gandalf, Saruman and the Shire
> Saruman soon became jealous of Gandalf, and this rivalry turned at last to a hatred, the deeper for being concealed, and the more bitter in that Saruman knew in his heart that the Grey Wanderer had the greater strength, and the greater influence upon the dwellers in Middle-earth, even though he hid his power and desired neither fear nor reverence.


We know that Gandalf proved himself to be the Greatest and the Chief of the Istari by being the only one to stay true to his mission. However, it is very likely that even in Valinor he made no great display of his power and strength and that this was the greatest display of his wisdom which would only be seen by those that truly knew him and that would be few indeed.

Yet even though he hid what he was and what he was capable of, still Cirdan and Galadriel at the least saw some of his heart and mind.

So, as we have very little to go on due to Saruman's obvious wish for self-agrandisment and Gandalf's equaly obvious wish for self-efacement, I can only place them as equals though personally I am inclined to consider Gandalf to have been the more powerful, wisest and overall greatest of the two even in Valinor.

If Saruman was intended to be the leader by the Valar, then this was a mistake on their part, (though perhaps not one made by all of them)

Also from UT: II THE ISTARI



> But Olórin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwë said that that was all the more reason why he should go, and that he commanded Olórin (illegible words follow that seems to contain word "third"). But at that Varda looked up and said: "Not as the third;" and Curumo remembered it.


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## Ithrynluin (Jun 17, 2007)

Excellent post Gothmog!

I like your explanation that the "especially Elrond" part of that quote might be due to him being more of a warrior than her. However, the thing Elrond was most renowned for were his healing powers, and I have a very vague recollection of a statement that claimed prowess in battle and healing lore were mutually exclusive "powers", meaning that an elf was not likely to possess both; though I have no idea where I read that. It might not even have been in a Tolkien book. This is an aside, in any case.


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## Gothmog (Jun 19, 2007)

Thank you. 

It was indeed in Tolkien's writings that you read this. The information is found in HoME 10: Morgoth's Ring in "Laws and Customs"



> In all such things, not concerned with the bringing forth of children, the neri and nissi (12) (that is, the men and women) of the Eldar are equal - unless it be in this (as they themselves say) that for the nissi the making of things new is for the most part shown in the forming of their children, so that invention and change is otherwise mostly brought about by the neri. There are, however, no matters which among the Eldar only a ner can think or do, or others with which only a nis is concerned. There are indeed some differences between the natural inclinations of neri and nissi, and other differences that have been established by custom (varying in place and in time, and in the several races of the Eldar). For instance, the arts of healing, and all that touches on the care of the body, are among all the Eldar most practised by the nissi; whereas it was the elven-men who bore arms at need. *And the Eldar deemed that the dealing of death, even when lawful or under necessity, diminished the power of healing,* and that the virtue of the nissi in this matter was due rather to their abstaining from hunting or war than to any special power that went with their womanhood. Indeed in dire straits or desperate defence, the nissi fought valiantly, and there was less difference in strength and speed between elven-men and elven-women that had not borne child than is seen among mortals. *On the other hand many elven-men were great healers and skilled in the lore of living bodies, though such men abstained from hunting, and went not to war until the last need*.



In fact it is a good point to bring up. However, in this question we are only looking at the relative attributes of the three guardians of the rings, that is Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel.

I think that if other of the Eldar were considered then the answer would have been different. Glorfindel for instance was a warrior of great strength and courage who had even battled a Balrog killing it even as he died himself.

But in looking at Galadriel and Elrond, Gandalf for all his power as a Maia was not of a warlike mien and Galadriel is stated to be "incapable of punitive action" while Elrond did indeed "Go to War at the last need" in the Last Alliance and before that to help the Elves of Erigion when they were attacked by Sauron after the making of the Rings of Power by the craftsmen of Ost-in-Edhil.

So of the three Elrond looks the best able to wield the One most fully.


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## Starbrow (Jul 4, 2007)

I think Gandalf was greater than Saruman. Saruman showed his might in many ways, but I don't think he used his power wisely and that was his downfall. For example, creating the Uruk-Hai and studying the making of the rings of power. Gandalf, however, showed humility in calling Saruman the greatest of his order and declined to demonstrate his power in dramatic ways unless he absolutely had to. Yet it was Gandalf that defeated a balrog. Furthermore, Gandalf broke Saruman's staff and "demoted" him. In order to do that, he must be more powerful than Saruman.

Elrond and Galadariel are both mighty in their own way. I think part of Elrond's power derives from his ancestors, i.e. Melian, Luthien, Earendial, Tuor, Beren, Turin, etc. Galadariel also had powerful ancestors, plus she also lived in Valinor. I think the fact that she was a High Elf, along with her greater age and experience make her greater than Elrond.


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## Starflower (Aug 31, 2007)

I think Greatest refers to might, power or ability. Chief would be a role of authority. 

So, Galadriel may well be 'greatest of all Eldar linving in Middle-earth', but she was not in a position of leadership - that was Elrond's 'job' if you like. This is in no way to suggest that Elrond was somehow less powerful, his power was different, i think his talent was leadership - Galadriel was more of an example, a torchbearer if you like.


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## Eledhwen (Jan 5, 2008)

I agree with Starflower. 'Might' is about strength of arm (or ring). 'Chief' is rank. As a ring cannot hold rank, then it must be the symbol that declares the wearer to be the leader (chief) among the elven ringbearers. So although Vilyar may have been the more powerful ring, Nenya was the ring of authority, and the wearer of Vilyar would not usurp that authority (being a noble elf and all that).


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## Turgon (Jan 20, 2008)

Even though I agree with the above... it does beg the question... if a ring cannot hold rank... why do we have one ring to rule them all?

*waggles eyebrows*


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## Bucky (Jan 22, 2008)

The quesion is almost impossible to answer as there is no distinction made between Gandalf the Grey & Gandalf the White - imagine the poll then: it would make my head spin more than it did already! 

I voted for #2 anyhow, the one most everyone else voted for......

Galadriel is called the greatest Elf left in Middle-Earth, & in writings like HoME the 2nd greatest Elf ever after Feanor, so despite Elrond being called 'mighty amoung Elves & Men', case closed.

Saruman was Gandalf's superior, 'head of his Order'. He also takes Gandalf prisinor & when Gandalf threatens him, he says that Saruman knows his threat is hollow, so he's greater than Gandalf the Grey. 
Gandalf the White breaks Saruman's staff, he commands Saruman to return & Saruman comes; He's definitely the greater.


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## Firawyn (Jan 22, 2008)

I voted on opinion, not on book reference.

I think Galadrial was greater than Elrond, because she never gave up hope.

And...Gandalf was greater that Saruman because he was tempted by the same power and not corrupted.


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## Eledhwen (Jan 22, 2008)

Turgon said:


> Even though I agree with the above... it does beg the question... if a ring cannot hold rank... why do we have one ring to rule them all?
> 
> *waggles eyebrows*


Touché! I think what I meant was that the Ring is not the chief, but the person who wears the ring of authority is. Of course all these niceties pale into insignificance in the event of the One Ring ruling over them all; being the Ring of both power and authority (albeit evil). But even though the Ring is dominant over the other rings; it is the Lord of the Rings who ultimately rules.

The argument of Greatest versus Chief would then be academic.

I wonder if the Witch King of Angmar's ring had more power/authority than the other eight; or whether the Witch King was chief because of his own innate rank?


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## Gordis (Jan 22, 2008)

Eledhwen said:


> I wonder if the Witch King of Angmar's ring had more power/authority than the other eight; or whether the Witch King was chief because of his own innate rank?


I think the latter. He was the most powerful of the Nine as a living man and thus has become the Chief of the nazgul. Of course it is ALSO possible that Sauron has given the most powerful of the Nine the strongest ring.

Anyway, in LOTR we see the WK without his ring that now Sauron himself keeps. And still he is more powerful -by far- than the other nazgul.

Good question, by the way!


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## Burzum (Oct 19, 2008)

I think it is fairly obvious about who is greater in the case of Elrond and Galadriel. Galadriel saw the Two Trees, dwelt with the Ainur, and was taught by Melian. But I think Galadriel should have had "the greatest" and Elrond "the chief" ring; I get the feeling that Galadriel doesn't hold that much authority in comparison to her powers (she is the probably the only royal elf in the Third Age Middle-earth who has seen the Two Trees, and yet she is regarded as more or less the equal of Elrond). This is truer if we consider that Vilya was originally the ring of Gil-galad. Certainly, Galadriel is the greater, but Gil-galad is the chief. Maybe they just didn't care about the attributes of the rings in relation to the attributes of the bearers, though.

In the case of Saruman and Gandalf, I'd go with Gandalf - he just seems to be humbling himself; both Cirdan and Galadriel (and Elrond maybe? I'm not sure...) see Gandalf as the greater, and Saruman himself is jealous of Gandalf.


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## dacman (Jan 23, 2009)

Regarding the Gandalf vs. Saruman debate:
Cirdan saw Gandalf when he was relatively young, that is, he had been in physical form for a short time. Cirdan could have judged Gandalf as having more "potential" than Saruman, because perhaps Gandalf had the perfect balance between power and humility. (Radagast seems very nice, though he does not have suitable power, and Saruman has the power, but may not put it to good use.) 
Later, When Gandalf the Grey is imprisoned by Saruman, we can see that Saruman has more raw force than Gandalf (the NLC movies show this pretty well), but when Gandalf the _White_ confronts Saruman, the latter falls and his staff breaks. Could it be possible that as Gandalf was being resurrected, Eru could have poured more of Gandalf's original Maia into him, or given him some kind of power boost in order to be able to defeat a fellow Wizard? this would explain how Gandalf was second best up till his death, and Saruman was chief up until he started abusing his power


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## Starflower (Mar 12, 2009)

I would slightly disagree with dacman here, Gandalf the Grey was certainly not second best to Saruman; more that he chose not to fight Saruman. 
Saruman was chief among the wizards, so Gandalf would have bowed to his authority, no matter how wrong he knew Saruman to be. 
When he came back as Gandalf the White, he was no longer subject to Saruman's authority, but rather was free to do as he pleased.


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