# Dior - man or elf?



## Helm (Feb 9, 2005)

I have a question. Beren married Luthien, their son Dior married Nimloth, kinswomen of Celeborn. Their daughter was Elwing. Beren, Luthien, and Elwing were Men (not Elves), I think Nimloth was an Elf, so what was Dior?
You would think he was a Man becouse his parents were but he ruled the Elves for a short time, and I have never heard of a man ruling Elves before. So what was he?


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## Maeglin (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: I have a Question!!*

First of all...this thread belongs in the Silmarillion section of the forums. (If a mod would be so kind as to move it......)

To answer your question, or part of it at least.....Beren was a man, but Luthien was an elf. So, due to that, Elwing was half-elven, as was Dior. In this way he was able to rightfully rule for a short period of time. Sorry if that's kind of a vague explanation, but I haven't read the stories of Beren and Luthien, or of Elwing, in quite a while, so be patient and someone more knowledgeable than myself will provide you with a better answer.

And by the way, welcome to the Forums!


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## Helm (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: I have a Question!!*

Thank you!
Sorry, I realy don't know the forum very well.
I Guess I don't know much about Half-Elven, could someone tell me more about it.


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## Maeglin (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: I have a Question!!*



Helm said:


> Thank you!
> Sorry, I realy don't know the forum very well.
> I Guess I don't know much about Half-Elven, could someone tell me more about it.



Don't be sorry, everyone is confused at first.  

Anyway, Half-Elven simply means that one parent was an Elf and the other was a mortal, so the person has half Elf blood and half mortal blood. For example, Elrond was half-elven, as was his brother Elros. In this situation, the person gets to choose whether he/she wants to be immortal (Elf), or mortal. In Elrond's case, he chose to be immortal and so was still alive in the third age though he was born thousands of years earlier in the first age. His brother Elros chose mortality, and so became the first King of Numenor. Because they had some elvish blood, the Numenoreans were granted an extremely long life-span (about 500 years) by the Valar. From Elros, if we trace down an extremely long line of Kings and their relatives, we eventually get our good friend Aragorn, Isildur's heir and King of Gondor at the end of the third age. 

Hopefully that cleared some of this up for you. If not, then by all means continue to ask your questions, or search the forums for threads that might answer your questions.


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## Varda35 (Feb 10, 2005)

*Re: I have a Question!!*

Forgive me if I don't make much sense because it's been a while since I read the Silmarillion...

I know that Luthien was an Elf and so technically Dior was half-elven because Beren was a man and his mother was an Elf. But on the other hand, wasn't Luthien technically a mortal when she had Dior? So even though he was conceived by two mortal parents he was still considered half-elven because of Luthien's heritage? Did he have to make the choice that Elrond and Elros had to make? I can't remember if any of this was explained in the Silmarillion.

thanks


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## Helm (Feb 17, 2005)

*Re: I have a Question!!*

Thats what I thought. But in the case of Elrond and Elros, weren't they given a choise by the Valar because of Earendil trip to the valar? If you have a Man as or father and a Elf as a mother, are you mortal or immortal?


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## OldTomBombadil (Mar 1, 2005)

Dior had the blood of three races: Man, Elf, and Maiar. Considering that he married an Elf, lived with the Elves, and was Thingol's heir, I presume that his fate lay with the Elves, i.e., after period of reflection in the Halls of Awaiting in the halls of Mandos, he would be released to live in Aman. I don't believe his fate is ever stated in _The Silmarillion_, but I believe his fate is that of the Elves.


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## Helm (Mar 6, 2005)

*Re: I have a Question!!*



Maeglin said:


> ...Beren was a man, but Luthien was an elf. So, due to that, Elwing was half-elven.


 
Beren and Luthien were not the parents of Elwing, so why was Elwing half-elven?


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## Aiwendil2 (Mar 6, 2005)

His fate was that of men.

There are two reasons, either sufficient on its own:

1. As Varda35 pointed out, Luthien became a mortal after her first death. Dior was thus born of two human parents.

2. According to some material from the '37 Quenta Silmarillion that was (for reasons I can't fathom) omitted from the '77 published version, Manwe ruled that anyone who has _any_ mortal blood is counted as a mortal - _except_ for Earendil and Elwing and their descendants, to whom the choice was given.


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## OldTomBombadil (Mar 9, 2005)

Aiwendil2 said:


> His fate was that of men.
> 
> There are two reasons, either sufficient on its own:
> 
> 1. As Varda35 pointed out, Luthien became a mortal after her first death. Dior was thus born of two human parents.


The fact that she became mortal does not make Lúthien human, it only meant that her fate, i.e., after death, was the same as a human's. 



Aiwendil2 said:


> 2. According to some material from the '37 Quenta Silmarillion that was (for reasons I can't fathom) omitted from the '77 published version, Manwe ruled that anyone who has _any_ mortal blood is counted as a mortal - _except_ for Earendil and Elwing and their descendants, to whom the choice was given.


But at that point in the development of the story wasn't Beren a Gnome (Noldo) rather than a Man?


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## Aranel (Mar 9, 2005)

If Dior was indeed a man then wouldn't his marriage to Nimloth have been more noteworthy. It would have been a fourth marraige between a man and an elf.

Not that that's really an argument against him being a man rather than an elf but it would definately make Elwing half elven.


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## Maerbenn (Mar 9, 2005)

“For he [Dior] said: ‘I am the first of the _Pereðil_ (Half-elven); but I am also the heir of King Elwë, the _Eluchíl_.’” — HoMe XII: _The Peoples of Middle-earth_, ‘The Problem of _ros_’

Do not confuse ‘race’ with fate.


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## Voronwë (Mar 9, 2005)

Wasn't Dior born from two mortals? After Beren and Luthien returned from Mandos as mortals to live in the Land of the Dead that Live?


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## Helm (Mar 12, 2005)

Yeah he was.


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## randvithr (Mar 12, 2005)

Since Diors parents being Beren and Luthien, Dior should (racialy) be one half men, a quarter eldar and a quarter maia (Luthiens mother, Melian, was a maia who lived in Doriath). Which in my mind should make him "more divine" than any of Erus children (except for his mother, Luthien, who were in fact one half maia).

Should not the herritage of the ainur be of many times more worth than that of the eldar?

The fact that Luthien choose the fate of men doesn´t change where she belongs racialy.

Well, I think at least. It´s been a while since I read the Silmarillion.


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