# Just how big *is* Thorondor?



## JennyDolfen (Feb 13, 2004)

I always see pictures that show him about the size of a large horse (with wings), but isn't he about ten times that size? I remember actually calculating his size once--I compared the fifty fathoms (how much exactly is that)? to the wingspan of a normal eagle and then checked how that compared to his body size. And I came up with a rather startling result--that his beak was over seven feet long. Did I get a wrong number for a fathom, did my maths leave me (very likely) or is this true?


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## Gothmog (Feb 13, 2004)

A "Fathom" is 6 feet. 1 foot is aprox 30cm. So I would say that you are probably not far out in your estimation.


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## JennyDolfen (Feb 13, 2004)

Meh. Clearly, Tolkien didn't design Thorondor with artists in mind. How are you supposed to draw a bird of that size and still make the people on his back appear as more than ants? *pout*

Thanks for the speedy reply, Gothmog.


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## Gothmog (Feb 13, 2004)

I don't think that Tolkien considered anyone drawing a picture of Throndor with someone on his back. He left that image for Gwahir, Landroval and Meneldor who were not so large as to completely dwarf Men or Elves.

You are most welcome. I am glad to be of help.


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## Dáin Ironfoot I (Feb 13, 2004)

Wow... how did he get to Maedhros without being sighted by Morgoth? That's insane to be that huge. I don't think I'm comfortable with that huge size! Thaugrandim (sp?) probably looked *much* smaller compared to him!


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## JennyDolfen (Feb 14, 2004)

I don't think Morgoth would have wanted to act even if he was aware that Thorondor was there. He probably did know know that Fingon was climbing around on his roof, or he would have tried to stop him; but what could he have done against Thorondor? I doubt he even could have got any forces there quickly enough. None of his minions could fly. Hmmmmm.... could it be that he saw Thorondor flying away with Maedhros and Fingon on his back and thought to himself, "I need winged dragons"?


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## Elthir (Apr 12, 2020)

JennyDolfen said:


> I always see pictures that show him about the size of a large horse (with wings), but isn't he about ten times that size? I remember actually calculating his size once--I compared the fifty fathoms (how much exactly is that)? to the wingspan of a normal eagle and then checked how that compared to his body size. And I came up with a rather startling result--that his beak was over seven feet long. Did I get a wrong number for a fathom, did my maths leave me (very likely) or is this true?




I think you started with an extra twenty fathoms.



> "Now, even as Fingon bent his bow, there flew down from the high airs Thorondor, King of Eagles, mightiest of all birds that have ever been, whose outstretched wings spanned thirty fathoms; and staying Fingon's hand he took him up, and bore him to the face of the rock where Maedhros hung."


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## Olorgando (Apr 12, 2020)

A fathom is six feet, or 72 inches, or 1.8288 meters.
Thirty fathoms would be 180 feet, or 54.864 meters.
That is a lot more than the largest Boeing 737, at about 36 meters wingspan.
Even more than the Boeing 767, at max just under 52 meters.
For Europeans:
Airbus A-320, similar to B-737 at 36 meters.
As inhabitants of Brooklyn (NYC) might have said, "dat a *big* boid!" 
_(For swimmers: a so-called Olympic pool is 50 meters long.)_


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 12, 2020)

OK, now you have _me _going off topic (said topic being until recently a mouldering corpse, perhaps it won't notice):

Hoppalong Cassidy (William Boyd) once guested on the old Burns and Allen radio show, in which the usual wacky plot convolutions made him the subject of Gracie's ire, bringing about this exchange:

"Why are you even here, Mr, Cassidy?"

"Actually, I'm not a Cassidy -- I'm a Boyd."

"Well, why don't you fly back to Brooklyn where you came from?"


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## Erestor Arcamen (Apr 12, 2020)




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## Elthir (Apr 12, 2020)

I'm here, in part, to help artists. Maybe Jenny will get an e-mail notice to view this thread, and paint a resized Thorondor.

The version below (which I'm assuming is Thorondor) is obviously twenty fathoms too large.


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## Olorgando (Apr 13, 2020)

Elthir said:


> ...
> The version below (which I'm assuming is Thorondor) is obviously twenty fathoms too large.


Actually, EA, you've lighted on one of the central issues of astronomy: how big / bright / far away *is* any given star? I won't go into the involved history of discovery and use of "standard candles" here, but to put it into perspective of this picture:

Now that could be a bird of varying size, depending on how far away it is.
It could hypothetically be say a thrush (ancestor of the one in TH?) which is about to fly by Fingon just in front of him - or even a sparrow *quite a bit* in fron of him. 🤔


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## Erestor Arcamen (Apr 13, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> Actually, EA, you've lighted on one of the central issues of astronomy: how big / bright / far away *is* any given star? I won't go into the involved history of discovery and use of "standard candles" here, but to put it into perspective of this picture:
> 
> Now that could be a bird of varying size, depending on how far away it is.
> It could hypothetically be say a thrush (ancestor of the one in TH?) which is about to fly by Fingon just in front of him - or even a sparrow *quite a bit* in fron of him. 🤔



Did you mean this for me or Elthir? 🙃


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## Elthir (Apr 13, 2020)

Maybe Gando was speaking to Eä in general?

Anyway, I'm sure a talented artist like Jenny will continue to pay attention to the various shapes of birds in flight (wing shape and so on), as she resizes Thorondor -- and we know that Thorondor, however far away Jenny imagined him to be in this picture, is twenty fathoms too large, simple because the artist thought he had a wingspan of fifty fathoms.

That's just math!


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## Olorgando (Apr 13, 2020)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> Did you mean this for me or Elthir? 🙃


Erm … there is this "reply" thingy in my post ...
But to keep things sorted to the satisfaction of accountants I will henceforth refer to that cat-with-a-tie avatar as E(A).


Elthir said:


> ...
> That's just math!


There are (formally) several "Maths".
Which one applies to perspective (which also figured in my "astronomy" comment above)? Geometry? Trigonometry? (It *has* been 47 years since my high school graduation … 😬 )


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 13, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> I will henceforth refer to that cat-with-a-tie avatar as E(A).


Ah -- more confusion to come. 

Good. We don't have enough at the moment.


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## Olorgando (Apr 13, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Ah -- more confusion to come.
> Good. We don't have enough at the moment.


There's at least a handful of people in the news nowadays who would whole-heartedly agree with you.


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## Elthir (Apr 13, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> But to keep things sorted to the satisfaction of accountants I will henceforth refer to that cat-with-a-tie avatar as E(A).




I'm still confused.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 13, 2020)

See what I mean?


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## Olorgando (Apr 14, 2020)

Elthir said:


> I'm still confused.


Wha…? The cat's so confused he morphed into a pooch - oh dear.
Maybe you want to check with Ando to get this sorted out?


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## Elthir (Apr 14, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> See what I mean?




I do.


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## Olorgando (Apr 14, 2020)

Hey, does this have the potential for a fun pastime during shutdown? Yank E(A)'s strings with a post and pop goes the weasel.* Wonder what the next critter will be. 😄

*"The Mustelidae (from Latin mustela, weasel) are a family of carnivorous mammals, including weasels, badgers, otters, ferrets, martens, minks, and wolverines, …"


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 14, 2020)

Quick- change artist, eh?

Edit: Hey -- where'd he (or she) go?


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## Olorgando (Apr 14, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Quick- change artist, eh?
> 
> Edit: Hey -- where'd he (or she) go?


Maybe Ando reasserted "control" ...


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