# King of Arda



## Confusticated (Oct 11, 2002)

Manwe was his own Vala, but he was always working for Iluvatar, seeing to his will. How much was Manwe's knowledge relative to that of the other Aratar?



> Elves believe that Men are often a grief to Manwë, who knows most of the mind of Ilúvatar...





> But Manwe Súlimo, highest and holiest of the Valar....


So that is Manwe's place.



> Then Manwë said to the Valar: 'This is the counsel of Ilúvatar in my heart: that we should take up again the mastery of Arda, at whatsoever cost, and deliver the Quendi from the shadow of Melkor.' Then Tulkas was glad; but Aulë was grieved, foreboding the hurts of the world that must come of that strife.


Why was Tulkas glad and Aule grieved? Which one knew more than the other? But more importantly: did Manwe have an understanding of the _cause of_ these reactions by them.


> For some, and of those Ulmo was the chief, held that the Quendi should be left free to walk as they would in Middle-earth


What caused Ulmo to think that, but more importantly....was Manwe aware of those reasons?


> At the last, therefore, the Valar summoned the Quendi to Valinor, there to be gathered at the knees of the Powers in the light of the Trees for ever; and Mandos broke his silence, saying; 'So it is doomed.' From this summons came many woes that afterwards befell.


Mandos knew of the doom of this....but did Manwe?


Those questions are all for now, but more will come of this topic.


----------



## YayGollum (Oct 11, 2002)

Yikes! Lots of questions! 
1. The Sil. definitely says that Aule had the most knowledge. It doesn't really say about what, so most people assume it's all about smith stuff or something. oh well. I would say that Manwe was definitely one of the most knowledgeable. If he wasn't, Eru isn't a very good choice of leaders. 
2. Tulkas was glad 'cuz he likes to fight. The quote says why Aule was grieved. I would say that Aule knew more. I would think that Manwe would know what he was doing. Huh. Who knows? Maybe he is just the Mouth of Eru.  But then, I would hope that Eru would know what he was doing. 
3. Ulmo seems to me to be the most concerned with the welfare of these stinky elves, for some reason. He's a bachelor, they're his buddies. I don't know. Again, I would think so about Manwe.
4. No, I don't think Manwe knew all of the crazy stuff Mandos knew. Mandos is cool. Manwe is just the Mouth of Eru. 
I hope I answered all of those. I hope somebody smarter comes along.


----------



## gate7ole (Oct 11, 2002)

> Why was Tulkas glad and Aule grieved?


Tulkas was the Vala of war and thus, the possibility of a strife with Melkor delighted him. But Aule was the Vala of earth and perceived that by this strife, the earth would suffer. Their motives were according to their nature and their reaction to Manwe’s decision similar.


> Which one knew more than the other?


I don’t think that any Aratar knew more than the other (except Manwe). I think that everyone of them had his area where none could outmatch him.

As for the other questions they can all be compressed in the following:


> Was Manwe aware of the other Valar’s thoughts and/or had he any access to their knowledge?


This is a mostly difficult question. Eru controlled the world mostly within Manwe. He had chosen him to be his deputy. But how many capabilities he gave to him is unknown. It is clearly expressed that Manwe was the only one who communicated with Illuvatar and understood some of his purposes. But I doubt that he was given the ability to perceive the thoughts of other Valar. He might be able to interpret their actions, but only by his own wisdom. Illuvatar couldn’t have given him such power without disturbing the independence and contribution of the other Valar. Thus Manwe could only understand why Tulkas was glad or Aule was grieved as we now try to do: using his wisdom and knowing the nature of each Vala.
Furthermore, he could not know the doom of Mandos. He could only perceive that Mandos knew that woes were to come. Besides what would be the role of Mandow if Manwe knew the destiny? No, Manwe knew many things more than the other Ainur but not everything. Part of the future was known to him (and to others) because he had sung it before Arda and Illuvatar even showed him some things that were not part of the Music. But still, his knowledge was limited and needed the collaboration with the other Valar.
My question on the matter would be: Why Mandos didn’t warn Manwe about the imminent woes? Was his role only to know the destiny and not try to change it?


----------



## Confusticated (Oct 11, 2002)

*all quotes here were originally posted by gate7ole*



> ...It is clearly expressed that Manwe was the only one who communicated with Illuvatar and understood some of his purposes. But I doubt that he was given the ability to perceive the thoughts of other Valar.


You say that my other questions could be compressed into this one:"Was Manwe aware of the other Valar’s thoughts and/or had he any access to their knowledge?"
That is not exactly true though. I did not ask if he could access the thoughts of the other valar but rather if he was aware of things which they were aware of. This need not have come to Manwe through mind-reading. A group of people can simultaneously be aware of things without exchanging thoughts.




> He might be able to interpret their actions, but only by his own wisdom.


I agree.


> Illuvatar couldn’t have given him such power without disturbing the independence and contribution of the other Valar.


I believe that I have told that he need not have had THAT power..so to me this statement means little.



> Thus Manwe could only understand why Tulkas was glad or Aule was grieved as we now try to do: using his wisdom and knowing the nature of each Vala.


While that is true it does not mean that he did not know of the things which caused the grief of Aule or Tulkas's being glad.


> Furthermore, he could not know the doom of Mandos.


I could be mistaken in my interpretation of Mandos' words that I quoted in the first post because I do not consider that to be the doom of Mandos,but rather doom that Mandos was aware of.
Even if it is considered doom of Mandos though, I wonder how you reason that Manwe could not have known the things which caused Mandos to name this doom. Remember I ask if Manwe knows the things which the other Valar draw their conclusions from, Not if he learns of these things from reading minds.



> Besides what would be the role of Mandow if Manwe knew the destiny? No, Manwe knew many things more than the other Ainur but not everything.


What sort of things did Manwe know, if he knew so much more than the others but knew not of the things which I posted in the first post?


> Part of the future was known to him (and to others) because he had sung it before Arda and Illuvatar even showed him some things that were not part of the Music. But still, his knowledge was limited and needed the collaboration with the other Valar.


Yes there had to have been a limit to the knowledge of Manwe, but what do you think these limitations where? Or what sort of things were left unseen to Manwe?


> My question on the matter would be: Why Mandos didn’t warn Manwe about the imminent woes? Was his role only to know the destiny and not try to change it?


I would assume that it was his place/role to keep certain things from Manwe. That is just a guess though.


----------



## gate7ole (Oct 11, 2002)

I’ll try to determine the boundaries of Manwe’s knowledge. His area as a Vala is the air and the winds. Besides it, he is the mightiest Vala, almost equal to Morgoth (with whom they were brethren in Illuvatar’s mind). He surpasses all Ainur in wisdom and especially in the perception of the will of Illuvatar. These two mean that he is able to ponder every situation and take actions better than the other Valar. His partial knowledge of Eru’s mind helps him comprehend many of his purposes as well as his emotions (e.g. Elves believe that Men are often a grief to Manwë, who knows most of the mind of Ilúvatar...). 
On the other hand, he cannot interfere with the matters concerning other Valar. E.g. he cannot control the seas or cannot know everything that will come. Theses limits are essential so that he won’t become strong enough so that he won’t need the aid of the other Valar. He understands Ulmo’s motives, but still couldn’t see that Ulmo’s disapproval of bringing the Quendi to Valinor, was a foreboding of the woes to come. Mandos’ prophecies are nor known to him before Mandos himself words them. But still he can understand more of these prophecies than anyone else. As a general conclusion, Manwe can interpret things better and having the will of Illuvatar in his mind, succeeds in taking the most sober decisions.
But I would like to hear your opinion on this matter Confusticated, more clearly, as well as everyone else’s opinion.


----------



## Confusticated (Oct 11, 2002)

I do not have any set belief about this, I find the subject to be complicated and contradictory on the surface which is why I started this thread..to get somewhere...for all of us who no not have set opinions about the limit of Manwe's awareness/knowledge. To increase the awareness of those of us who need it and/or are interested.
Somehow I think maybe that Manwe has less forboding, and less visionary abilities than do the other Aratar, and that most of what he knows of Iluvatar are just those thoughts of what Iluvatar thinks should be done at the time. I think Manwe's knowing what Iluvatar wants done coupled with his greater ignorance than the other aratar as far as what may come of the actions taken are what enables him to see to it that certain actions are taken by the Valar. If Manwe is to be the boss working for Iluvatar it makes sense that he doesn't see the future as clearly as the other Valar because if he did he would have to be so much like Iluvatar that it would defeat the purpose of him.
Manwe has to do dirty work, and I think it was ment that he not be aware that the work is dirty. I think he commands for Iluvatar without knowing why the commands are given or what will come of them.
Sorry so long, but I am not good with words. I hope I've explained that thought well enough


----------



## Ravenna (Oct 12, 2002)

With regard to how much of what the other Valar knew, that Manwe also knew, I tend to think of the descriptions of the Valar in the Valaquenta. I particular as referring to the closeness between Manwe and Melkor.
These two were originally very close to one another, and of Melkor, it is stated that he shared a part of all the knowledge of the other Valar. If this is true, then, I've always assumed that, being so similar, Manwe also shared a certain amount of overall knowledge, though obviously not the in depth details with the others.
This leads me to believe that he did share a certain amount of awareness with the others, as well as being able to ponder and interpret.


----------



## Confusticated (Oct 19, 2002)

> But Manwë was the brother of Melkor in the mind of Ilúvatar, and he was the chief instrument of the second theme that Ilúvatar had raised up against the discord of Melkor..


Manwe couldn't think for himself the way that Melkor could. In my opinion of course.

I think Iluvatar wouldn't want his intruments knowing more than they need to know. They each play out their own part. So, I think it was Manwe's part to be the idiot of the Valar, his closeness in thought with Iluvatar was just that Iluvatar put his counsil into Manwe's mind so that Manwe could make sure that the other Valar didn't get any funny ideas. To be sure that Manwe himself didn't get any funny ideas, or thoughts of his own which might cause him to question Iluvatar, Iluvatar either made Manwe for this, or chose him later for that reason...Manwe was made to be a good little intrument who always does what he is told, never breaks the rules, or questions his boss. Sure he could see most things that happend in Arda but he was unable to give any real thought to them, he'd just know Iluvatar's will/counsil/commands. 
Maybe I am mistaken..


----------



## gate7ole (Oct 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Confusticated _
> Manwe couldn't think for himself the way that Melkor could. In my opinion of course.
> 
> Manwe was made to be a good little intrument who always does what he is told, never breaks the rules, or questions his boss. Sure he could see most things that happend in Arda but he was unable to give any real thought to them, he'd just know Iluvatar's will/counsil/commands.
> Maybe I am mistaken..



You totally underestimate the power of Manwe. In Valaquenta it is said that he is the greatest of the Valar (little less than Melkor, though). He is certainly wiser than Aule or Ulmo, though in many situations he followed Ulmo's counsels. And his decisions didn't always derive from Illuvatar's command (e.g. the council about Miriel/Finwe's future). Certainly he was not an idiot and just an instrument.

As for the comparison with Melkor, it is true that they had a completely different perception of things, but this derives from their different natures (the good and the evil). Evil in most mythologies lures people by enhancing their abilities before eventually it consumes them.


----------



## Confusticated (Oct 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by gate7ole _
> *You totally underestimate the power of Manwe. In Valaquenta it is said that he is the greatest of the Valar (little less than Melkor, though). He is certainly wiser than Aule or Ulmo, though in many situations he followed Ulmo's counsels. And his decisions didn't always derive from Illuvatar's command (e.g. the council about Miriel/Finwe's future). Certainly he was not an idiot and just an instrument.*


Idiot was a strong word, but I see him as an intrument. I see all the Ainur as intruments..though they have been more than that I do not think Manwe was, or not by much.
I probably don't underestimate the power of Manwe, perhaps just the abilities of Manwe. Maybe I do not understand how he worked..because to me it seems that he was very ignorant aside from being in touch with Iluvatar's counsil.
There were limits to the percenptions of all the Valar but Manwe's limit seems to be envisioning the future. While the others didn't seem to be as close to Iluvatar...so I say that Manwe was ignorant where the other Valar were not. Likewise they were ignorant of things that Manwe knew because of his closeness with Iluvatar.


----------



## gate7ole (Oct 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Confusticated _
> *I see all the Ainur as intruments..though they have been more than that I do not think Manwe was, or not by much.
> *



But aren't all the Children (Ainur, Elves, Men) instruments?


> _ from Ainulindale_
> And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine *instrument* in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagine


It isn't bad to be the instrument of a divine being. I would prefer this than being nothing, having no role and ending with death (like trees or animals).


----------



## Confusticated (Oct 19, 2002)

Yes, one could say that people are intruments too. I believe that Melkor was an intrument as well. I must find a better way of wording this thing that I am trying to say about Manwe. 
Also, for all I know the animals and trees were intruments as well..they are leaving things too. I will give more though about wording my point about Manwe.


----------

