# The doom of the Witch-king



## Ithrynluin (Apr 14, 2003)

From _Appendix A_ to _The Lord of the Rings_:



> 'Then the Witch-king laughed, and none that heard it ever forgot the horror of that cry. But Glorfindel rode up then on his white horse, and in the midst of his laughter the Witch-king turned to flight and passed into the shadows. For night came down on the battlefield, and he was lost, and none saw whither he went.
> 'Eärnur now rode back, but Glorfindel, looking into the gathering dark, said: "Do not pursue him! He will not return to this land. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of *man* will he fall.' These words many remembered; but Eärnur was angry, desiring only to be avenged for his disgrace.
> 'So ended the evil realm of Angmar; and so did Eärnur, Captain of Gondor, earn the chief hatred of the Witch-king; but many years were still to pass before that was revealed.'



From _The Battle of the Pellenor Fields_:



> ‘Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!’
> A cold voice answered: ‘Come not between the Nazgûl and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye.’
> A sword rang as it was drawn. ‘Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may.’
> ‘Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!’
> Then Merry heard of all sounds in that hour the strangest. It seemed that Dernhelm laughed, and the clear voice was like the ring of steel. ‘But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund’s daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.’



1. In what sense do you understand the word 'man'? 

a) male of any race
b) mortal Man

If "a)" is the case, then no male of any race could ever slay the Witch-king, including Gandalf (a male Maia) for example.
One might think about Merry, but he didn't really kill the Witch-king, did he?

2. Do you think that Glorfindel has prophetic abilities? Do you think that all Elves have these abilities, or is Glorfindel a big exception, having returned from death, and being mighty among the Eldar?


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## Nenya Evenstar (Apr 15, 2003)

I have always considered "man" to mean the race of Men, not the male of any race.


> _The Return of the King_
> Suddenly the great beast beat its hideous wings, and the wind of them was foul. Again it leaped into the air, and then swiftly fell down upon Eowyn, shrieking, striking with beak and claw. Still she did not blench: maiden of the Rohirrim, child of kings, slender but as a steel-blade, fair but terrible. A swift stroke she dealt, skilled and deadly. The outstretched neck she clove asunder, and the hewn head fell like a stone. Backward she sprang as the huge shape crashed to ruin, vast wings outspread, crumpled on the earth; and with its fall the shadow passed away. A light fell about her, and her hair shone in the sunrise. Out of the wreck rose the Black Rider, tall and threatening, towering above her. With a cry of hatred that stung the very ears like venom he let fall his mace. Her shield was shivered in many pieces, and her arm was broken; she stumbled to her knees. He bent over her like a cloud, and his eyes glittered; he raised his mace to kill. *But suddenly he too stumbled forward with a cry of bitter pain, and his stroke went wide, driving into the ground. Merry's sword had stabbed him from behind, shearing through the black mantle, and passing up beneath the hauberk had pierced the sinew behind his mighty knee. 'Eowyn! Eowyn!' cried Merry.* Then tottering, struggling up, with her last strength she drove her sword between crown and mantle, as the great shoulders bowed before her. The sword broke sparkling into many shards. The crown rolled away with a clang. Eowyn fell forward upon her fallen foe.


I have always thought that it was actually Merry who did the killing. If it hadn't been for him, Eowyn would have been killed by the Ringwraith. Yes, Eowyn dealt the death blow, but it wasn't by her hand that the Ringwraith's doom was made -- it was by Merry's. So, I conclude that Glorfindel's prophecy meant "not by the race of man."

I do think that Glorfindel had prophetic abilities. I think that that is a gift that goes along with some of the wisest of the Elven race, and is seen more in those Elves who came over from Aman. I have always believed that Elves such as Elrond and Galadriel had similar abilities.


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 15, 2003)

> I have always thought that it was actually Merry who did the killing.



I don't mean to nit-pick here (but I'll do it nonetheless ), but weren't hobbits a branch of the race of Men? This is of course a sheer technicality...

I don't think that either Merry or Eowyn could achieve this deed by themselves...and Eowyn seems to have had the bigger part in killing him.
And if this really pertains to the race of Man and not to gender, wouldn't it be impossible for Eowyn to kill him?

Just wondering.

I completely agree with you on the prophetic abilities.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Apr 15, 2003)

Picky, picky, picky! 

Perhaps that prophecy could be taken either way? I mean, prophecy is never made clear until it happens, and in this case, either idea _could_ be correct. Maybe it's a two-in-one package?

But, I still think my idea could conceivably be correct. Without Merry Eowyn would have died. It was still Merry's fault that the Ringwraith died, regardless of the fact that it was a combined effort (at least that's how I see it).


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## BlackCaptain (Apr 15, 2003)

When Eowyn says 'Yet no mortal man am I!' I think it shows that one had to be a male to kill me. 

One must look at capitalization... Tolkien mentions in one of his letters that the Ring requires capitalization after the Hobbit, because the Ring was the link or something...

Whenever Tolkien refferes to the race of Men as a whole, he capitalzises the 'M'. If the situation were that no member of the race of Men could kill me, Eowyn would have said:
'Yet no mortal Man am I!' wich is incorrect, but that is still what it would be getting at.

Ive always believed that one had to be a male to kill me.


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## YayGollum (May 2, 2003)

This is just craziness.

1. b) And no, Merry didn't kill the scary transvestite WitchKing person.

2. No and no. Since I'm going with b) in that number one thing, I gots to say that this crazy phophet dude was obviously wrong.


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## Idril (May 2, 2003)

I assumed the references were to male of any race. As I read the book - the witch-king's death came about from the Eowyn's blow - she caused the injury which weakened him (and dispelled the curse of immortality) allowing him to be finished off by Merry.

Does this not remind anyone of Macbeth and the witches prophesies:

1) - "The power of man, for none of woman born, shall harm Macbeth"
Off course, "Macduff was from his mother's womb untimely ripped." Macduff killed Macbeth.

2) "Macbeth shall never vanquished be, until Great Birnam wood to high Dunsinane hill shall come against him."
Again, Macduff's army cut down the trees and used it as camoflage and to Macbeth, the woods were moving!

similar sort of thing - a technicality which leads the person to think they are invincible.

I agree with Nenya about the 'foresight' of Glorfindel.

edit to correct spelling error:


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## Lantarion (May 2, 2003)

I've thought of it as a simple little pun by Tolkien. 
The prophetic words, I think it is safe to assume, hint towards the actual race of Man(kind), or perhaps to all living people in the world. When you think about it, it doesn't really make sense to say "No Man shall kill him; but a female Dwarf might!" 
In saying "not by the hand of man will he fall", I think 'man' is a general term for 'people' in general. I think it means that no living being can kill the Witch-king, but that some greater power would be able to (of course, in these terms, the prophecy was completely wrong).
Then Tolkien twists 'man' to mean 'male'; and in the end it is Éowyn who actually _kills_ the Witch-king, although I agree that withour Merry it would have been impossible. 
An interesting thing also is that Éowyn dresses up as a man, to be able to ride with the _éotheod_.. And as 'Dernhelm' she is 'introduced' (jeez I use those apostrophes too much!) to the Witch-king; and yet (s)he kills him as Éowyn.


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## Eriol (May 2, 2003)

My thinking is similar to Lantarion's. It is a wonderful pun for the first-time reader, there is a clear sense that the end of the Witch King will be something mysterious.

Remember that when Gandalf and Denethor are discussing the war (with Faramir, and being watched by Pippin), Denethor teases Gandalf saying that perhaps he was overmatched and Gandalf answers : "Perhaps; we were not tested yet. But not by the hand of man he will fall if the old prophecy is correct". Now, Gandalf was not advertising his Maia nature around, and it seems to me that in this context he is admitting that he, Gandalf, will not be responsible for the Witch King's death -- if the prophecy is correct.

This interpretation of Gandalf's leads me to assume that the prophecy referred to any living being that walks on two legs -- as interpreted by everybody before Éowyn showed up. The Witch King probably believed that too... and that's why Éowyn's claim that she is "no mortal man" leaves him in doubt, he who had absolute confidence (even facing Gandalf himself a few moments earlier).


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## trishette (May 3, 2003)

I personally interpreted it as a male of the race of Men.. very specific.


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## pgt (May 4, 2003)

In reading this thread I was about to post (albeit less effectively) essentially what Lantarian said. I strongly agree.

In fact I'll go further out on a limb and say this whole thing about a woman and a hobbit (yes, that's a relative of the race of men) killing the WK and somehow conveniently 'fulfilling' the prophecy was nothing short of a 'loophole' more typical of a shylock lawyer (no offense intended) or politician than Tolkien. Maybe that's his sense of humor peaking through?

Glorfindel's prophecy was as accurate as a newspaper astrologists - lucky for him he stayed home and didn't come out to support his friends in the last war there so as to see how wrong he was. Then again he could have run for cover under the Tolkien loophole.

Good thread - I always rolled my eyes at the 'convenience' factor on tieing up that loose end.

-T


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## Legolam (May 19, 2003)

*The Witch-King Prophecy*

This is a point inspired by something I read in a Katharine Kerr book, which has a similar prophecy about a man only being killed by a woman. It's not really a question, just something I wanted to share.

The chief Nazgul laughs in the face of "Dernhelm" on the battlefield and says he cannot be killed by the hand of a man (sorry, can't remember the quote right now. It's the famous one everyone knows anyway). Eowyn then reveals herself as female and kills him with the help of Merry.

My point is that this scenario is a question of belief rather than prophecy and/or "magic". The Witch King believes he cannot be killed on the battlefield, as does everyone else. However, Eowyn _believes_ she has the requirements to kill him, and does so. Furthermore, the Witch King _fears_ Eowyn when she reveals herself and then _believes_ he is not immortal.

Basically, I believe that this prophecy was little more than just words. Any elf, dwarf, woman or hobbit could have killed the Witch King. He probably could have even been killed by a man. However, Eowyn's belief in the prophecy allowed her the extra strength of mind and will to do the deed that went down in ME history.


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## Celebthôl (May 19, 2003)

well thats only in the most broad form, i mean basically Man is the race of the most popular "speaking creature" on ME, so therefore a Hobbit quite clearly wont kill him, and as for Dwarves, he barely sees them ever, and Elves are all gone, therefore the race Man is all that is left and in his view im guessing they cant kill him, as there in nobody else really left to kill him, then he has nothing to fear, but it is only when we broaden out what "Man" means i.e. a male, then it is more clear (if this makes no sence sorry, i cant get the right words) that a Woman may fell outside of the prophecy and be able to kill him, it never says he was afraid of Eowyn, only that his mind went into doubt...


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## Inderjit S (May 19, 2003)

The 'prophecy' of the Witch-King's fall was first spoken by Glorfindel, after the destruction of Angmar by Gondor/Mithlond and Rivendell. 



> "Do not pursue him! He will not return to this land" Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall" These words many remebred



This was Glorindel to Earnur, who wanted to chase after the Witch-King. Perchance the Witch-King heard these words or maybe rumour of them passed to his own ears and he interpreted it as the fact that he was invincible. The phrase "not by the hand of man will he fall" is open to interpretation, though it seems that he means men a as a race, and if he meant it in a masculine manner, he may have said 'a man'. Just a thought.


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## Legolam (May 19, 2003)

I'm not really disputing the fact that those were the words of the prophecy. It's more a philisophical point about believing prophecy and therefore self-fulfilling that same prophecy.


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## Eriol (May 19, 2003)

Gandalf (who was not a man) said in his conversation with Denethor and Faramir that the Witch-King would not fall by the hand of man if the prophecy was correct. This was an answer to Denethor's taunt that maybe Gandalf was afraid of the Witch-King. I takt this to mean that Gandalf was saying that the prophecy would apply to himself, Gandalf. As if he was saying "Well, even if I'm stronger, I won't kill him, so it's no use taunting me".

And you are surely correct in that the revelation of Éowyn's status instilled fear in the Witch-King, as seen by the pause and by the halt in his laughter at that point.

As whether the prophecy was really prophetical or just a coincidence, reinforced by the self-fulfilling beliefs of everyone involved, I don't think we can answer that... but surely Glorfindel gloated about it for a long time .


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## Celebthôl (May 19, 2003)

well put it this way, if he was chained down and a "Man" drove a sword though his face, then a man slew him, therefore it is possible for a "Man" to kill him, but it was told that a "Man" wouldnt kill him...if you were told this, or heard this you would want to believe it as it kinda indicates your invincible, 

*chuckles to self* little did he know...


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## Lantarion (May 19, 2003)

I could have sword there was a thread just like this, discussing whether the term 'man' in the Prophecy was literal or not.. And now I can't find it! 
ANyway I said that it was a great pun by Tolkien. And it was.


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## Celebthôl (May 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lantarion _
> *I could have sword there was a thread just like this, discussing whether the term 'man' in the Prophecy was literal or not.. And now I can't find it!
> ANyway I said that it was a great pun by Tolkien. And it was.  *



LOL, well arent you just full-o-jokes today , do you actually think it was a pun put in by Mr Tolkien?


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## Lantarion (May 19, 2003)

Uh, yes.


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## Niniel (May 19, 2003)

I think the person speaking the prophecy (Malbeth the Seer right?) had seen that this would happen in the future (why else would he be a seer?). He had seen that it would happen this way and not another, so there was no other possibility for the witch-king to die. Of course it would have been possible for anyone else to kill the witch-king, but since history was going to take this course, it was to go like this and not in any other way. I don't mean to say that because Malbeth said this, it was predetermined; he had just seen what would be the course of history.


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## Ithrynluin (May 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lantarion _
> *I could have sword there was a thread just like this, discussing whether the term 'man' in the Prophecy was literal or not.. And now I can't find it!
> *



Here it is, Lanty. It's been moved back to the Guild of Scholars because that's where it originated from and I just wanted it to get more response. Now I've moved it back and merged it with the more recent one. Phew!


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## Inderjit S (May 19, 2003)

> I think the person speaking the prophecy (Malbeth the Seer right?) had seen that this would happen in the future (why else would he be a seer?).



It was Glorfindel.

Malbeth predicted that Arvedui would be Arthedain's last 'King' and about Gondor's 'dillema' in accepting either him or Earnil II as King and about Aragorn having to choose the Paths of Dead.


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## Lantarion (May 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin_
> Here it is, Lanty. It's been moved back to the Guild of Scholars because that's where it originated from and I just wanted it to get more response. Now I've moved it back and merged it with the more recent one. Phew!


Ah! Excellent, ithryn. Should have dug deeper, I s'pose..


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## Legolam (May 20, 2003)

Hey, why the merged thread? I don't dispute the fact that the prophecy said man, whatever it meant. I was more getting at the point that perhaps belief in your own power over someone else overcomes fate/the prophecy and that so called "prophecies" are self-fulfilling.

It's a bit of a deep subject, but I'm bored and I wanted to know if anyone else had any rambling opinions on this


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## Ingwë (May 3, 2006)

It was Merry who pierced the Witch-King:
_Merry’s sword has stabbed him [The Witch-King] from behind, shearing through the black mantle, and passing up beneath the haubeck had pierced the sinew behind his mighty knee_
_‘Eowyn! Eowyn!’ cried Merry. Then tottering, struggling up, with her last strength she drove her sword between the crown and mantle, as the great shoulders bowed before her._
Merry used the dagger he took from the Barrow-Downs and Tom told him that the Men of the Westernesse forged it long ago. They were foes of the Dark Lord, he said. Maybe the blades had some specific power, a spell was cast upon them or at least they were forged for the War against Sauron and they were significant. I think by piercing the Witch King with that blade Merry broke the connection between the One Ring/Nazgul’s own Ring (I don’t know what really lingers the life of the Ringwraiths and makes them so powerful) and the Witch-King himself so he became vulnerable spirit. Eowyn had a sword in her hands and pierced that spirit and this is how it ends  Eowyn just finished the work. 
I agree that Glorfindel had prophetic abilities. I think that Glorfindel predicted that the With-King won’t be killed by the hand of any living men. But that doesn’t mean that he cannot be killed by a Men, it just will not happen. Glorfindel foresaw the future, but the Witch King wasn’t cursed by him. 
I also agree that the Wisest among the Eldar had prophetic abilities. Example: _Elrond told Aragorn: A great doom awaits you, either to rise above_ _the height of all you fathers since the days of Elendil, or to fall in to darkness with all that is left of your kin. _He also called Aragorn _Estel_ (Hope). Cirdan also had such abilities: that’s’ why he gave Gandalf the Ring of Fire. 
_I've thought of it as a simple little pun by Tolkien. _
And I have always thought of it as a simple little pun by the English language…


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## Rilien (May 24, 2006)

Ingwë said:


> I agree that Glorfindel had prophetic abilities. I think that Glorfindel predicted that the With-King won’t be killed by the hand of any living men. But that doesn’t mean that he cannot be killed by a Men, it just will not happen. Glorfindel foresaw the future, but the Witch King wasn’t cursed by him.
> I also agree that the Wisest among the Eldar had prophetic abilities. Example: _Elrond told Aragorn: A great doom awaits you, either to rise above__the height of all you fathers since the days of Elendil, or to fall in to darkness with all that is left of your kin. _He also called Aragorn _Estel_ (Hope). Cirdan also had such abilities: that’s’ why he gave Gandalf the Ring of Fire.
> _I've thought of it as a simple little pun by Tolkien. _
> And I have always thought of it as a simple little pun by the English language…


Gandalf believed that there was a prophecy (whether true or not). That's good enough for me.


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## Arvedui (May 26, 2006)

If Glorfindel could foresee that the Witch-king would be killed by someone who wasn't neither man nor Man, then wouldn't that necesarilly mean that the Witch-king *couldn't* be killed by a Man?
It just wouldn't happen that a man killed him, right?


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## Starbrow (May 26, 2006)

I think that's right, Arvedui.

So when WK says, "No living man may hinder me!" do you think he's referring to what Glorfindel foresaw, or that he believes that because he is a Nazgul, he is invincible as long as Sauron is alive?

I used to think it was a reference to the prophecy, but now that I've thought about it more, I think it could be the WK's arrogance.


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## elrilgalia (May 27, 2006)

it cant just have been his personal arrogance if more than one person beleived it, and not, presumably as a result of the WK uttering it in the first place.


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## Varokhâr (May 28, 2006)

Arvedui said:


> If Glorfindel could foresee that the Witch-king would be killed by someone who wasn't neither man nor Man, then wouldn't that necesarilly mean that the Witch-king *couldn't* be killed by a Man?
> It just wouldn't happen that a man killed him, right?



That's what I tend to think; Glorfindel forsaw that it would just so happen that a non-male would strike the death-blow. It leaves a lot of loopholes open for technicalities to enter in, such as a male *hobbit* and a female human both bringing about the W-K's demise. 

In essense, Glorfindel saw that it just would happen that a male Human wouldn't be involved. A male Human could've just as easily struck the death-blow as Eowyn did, or stabbed the W-K in the leg like Merry did - things just weren't fated to play out like that. Glorfindel saw a glimpse of the most likely fate of things if events continued along their current course, much like any seer in any story.


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## Arvedui (Jun 1, 2006)

Starbrow said:


> So when WK says, "No living man may hinder me!" do you think he's referring to what Glorfindel foresaw, or that he believes that because he is a Nazgul, he is invincible as long as Sauron is alive?


Personally, I think that the Witch-king had heard the prophecy, and that combined with his arrogance, he referred to it.


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