# The most dangerous to Melkor



## JeffF. (Jan 29, 2002)

In the beginning of the Silmarillion, the Valaquenta, Eonwe, a maiar, is described as "whose might in arms is surpassed by none in Arda." Tulkas, a Valar, is described as "Greatest in strength and deeds of prowess." Orome, also of the Valar, is "less strong than Tulkas he is more dreadful in anger." 

Which of these champions is the strongest of the Valar/Maiar? Which is most dangerous to Melkor?


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## Tyaronumen (Jan 29, 2002)

Tulkas, IMHO.

He's beaten the crap outta Morgoth once or twice already, and while Eonwe might be more skilled in the realm of arms, I do not know that a battle between two of the Ainur would necessarily be restricted to arms alone...


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## Beleg Strongbow (Jan 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Tyaronumen _
> *Tulkas, IMHO.
> 
> He's beaten the crap outta Morgoth once or twice already, and while Eonwe might be more skilled in the realm of arms, I do not know that a battle between two of the Ainur would necessarily be restricted to arms alone... *




It is also said that NO one could challenge Tulkas he tha man. But Orome was more dreadful in anger. Tulkas was slow 2 anger but slower 2 forget. He cracked Morgoth. He sat hi down on his @#$% no one could beat him at anything got to do with war. Orome though was a better hunter of Animals. Tulkas could outrun anything. Fo me it would be Tulkas!


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## Dengen-Goroth (Jan 29, 2002)

I believe, though I have not read the Silm. for quite some time, that Tulkas was only able to best Melkor whilst he was battling all of the other valar. Tulkas was the one who tipped the scale, in crude terms, and gained the victory, at that tme, for the Valar.Had it just been Tulkas versus Melkor, I believe things would have been quite different. Though again, I may be wrong.


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## Mormegil (Jan 29, 2002)

IMO Tulkas was the biggest threat to Melkor. He was the strongest.


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## Lord Melkor (Jan 30, 2002)

Behold for I am Melkor, first among the Ainuri! And mighty I was at the beginning of the days, wielding terrible power of Fire and Darkness that no one could oppose. And so I faced the combined might of all the other Valar, with Sauron and Balrogs on my side, and our forces were evenly matched until tulkas appeared!

By the way a gap between Maiar and Valar isn`t that great since Eonwe was said to be greater warrior than some Valar, I think I wouldn`t have been able to stand against other Valar without my Balrogs and other fallen Maiar.


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## Arvedui (Oct 1, 2005)

To me it seems that Tulkas only excisted for one purpose: to fight Melkor.
So that would make him the most dangerous one in my book.


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## Haldatyaro (Dec 6, 2005)

Certainly Morgoth was terrified of Tulkas. From _Of the Beginning of Days_:


> So came Tulkas the Strong, whose anger passes like a mighty wind, scattering cloud and darkness before it; and Melkor fled before his wrath and his laughter, and forsook Arda, and there was peace for a long age.


And Morgoth knew that he could not accomplish his earlier rebellion if Tulkas fought him:


> Then Tulkas slept, being weary and content, and Melkor deemed that his hour had come. And he passed therefore over the Walls of the Night with his host, and came to Middle-earth far in the north; andthe Valar were not aware of him.


Finally, when they did fight, Tulkas had the upper hand:


> But at the last the gates of Utumno were broken and the halls unroofed, and Melkor took refuge in the uttermost pit. Then Tulkas stood forth as champion of the Valar and wrestled with him, and cast him upon his face; and he was bound with the chain Angainor that Aulë had wrought, and led captive; and the world had peace for a long age.


I've always presumed (though it's far from clear) that Tulkas again did battle during the War of Wrath and was with the Host of Valinor when it descended into Morgoth's lair and finally vanquished him.


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## Ermundo (Dec 14, 2005)

If Morgoth is fighting Tulkas as his prime (both of them at their prime actually) in all their glory, power, and splendour, than Melko would still win


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## Ingwë (Dec 15, 2005)

I think that Fëanor is the most dangerous to Melkor. Morgoth killed his father and took the Jewels. I think that Fëanor hated the Dark lord even in his bones  And finally he perished when he tried to kill Melkor. 
Élhendi, 
Don't you think that Fëanor existed for only one purpose - to kill Melkor and to take the Silmarilli? Fëanor perished when he tried to kill Melkor


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## Thorondor_ (Dec 15, 2005)

> Don't you think that Fëanor existed for only one purpose - to kill Melkor and to take the Silmarilli?


I think that his prime purpose, prior to his marring by Melkor, was to produce "works of wonder for the glory of Arda". In his relation with Melkor, he was more of his tool than his most dangerous opponent.


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## Arvedui (Dec 16, 2005)

Ingwë,
When it comes to Fëanor, I think that Thorondor_ is closer to the truth than you are. Fëanor was first and foremost an artist, not a fighter.


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## Ingwë (Dec 16, 2005)

I agree with you guys, that he was an artist, not a fighter. But he loved his creatures, especially the Jewels. He wanted to protect them, they were hidden from the other elves. He knew that he has The Light. But he lost it and fought for it. That made him a fighter. And in addition Melkor killed his father. What more?


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## Thorondor_ (Dec 16, 2005)

Ingwë said:


> I agree with you guys, that he was an artist, not a fighter. But he loved his creatures, especially the Jewels. He wanted to protect them, they were hidden from the other elves. He knew that he has The Light. But he lost it and fought for it. That made him a fighter. And in addition Melkor killed his father. What more?


 If you are saying that he had a good deal of motivation to fight Melkor, I won't disagree; he even has some of the best traits an elf has ever had. But his pride overshadowed them, and it brought him to a stupid end, having achieved little if anything of what he set out to accomplish, and actually hindering a great deal the efforts of the elves to overthrow Melkor.


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## Ingwë (Dec 17, 2005)

I agree with you, Thor 

I don't know why I don't see this quote here...:


> *It has been told that Fëanor and his sons came first of the Exiles to Middle-earth*, and landed in the waste of Lammoth, the Great Echo, upon the outer shores of the Firth of Drengist And even as the Noldor set foot upon the strand their cries were taken up into the hills and multiplied, so that a clamour as of countless mighty voices filled all the coasts of the North; and the noise of the burning of the ships at Losgar went down the winds of the sea as a tumult of great wrath, and far away all who heard that sound were filled with wonder.
> Now the flames of that burning were seen not only by Fingolfin, whom Fëanor had deserted in Araman, but also by the Orcs and the watchers of Morgoth. *No tale has told what Morgoth thought in his heart at the tidings that Fëanor, his bitterest foe, had brought a host out of the West.* It may be that he feared him little, for he had as yet no proof of the swords of the Noldor; and soon it was seen that he purposed to drive them back into the sea.


Tolkien himself the beginning, as we can see from the quote. said that Fëanor is Melkor's bitterest foe though Melkor didn't think so at 
Yes, he was an artist, the best artist in Arda. But he wasn't strong fighter, he wasn't good leader. He was proud, as Thorondor_ already mentioned. His pride brought him to an inglorious end. 

Patience is everything, contact is nothing


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## Thorondor_ (Dec 17, 2005)

> But he wasn't strong fighter, he wasn't good leader


 I would say he is a poor leader in certain ways; however, he was also described as "the mightiest of the noldor" (Of the return of the noldor) and as "the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and in subtlety alike, of all the Children of Iluvatar" (Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor) and he did fight the balrogs, "long" and "undismayed". As a proverb goes, "very good cheese, packed in "dog-skin"".

[I must say I don't buy the subtlety part ]

P.S. I think I will join the chorus, that Tulkas was the most dangerous foe:


Myths Trasnformed said:


> Therefore he returned to Earth, but for fear of the might of the Valar and of Tulkas more than all he came now in secret


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## Arvedui (Dec 19, 2005)

I don't think that being the 'bitterest foe' is the same as being the most dangerous. There are various reasons for being a 'bitter foe' of someone. Fëanor's reason was for revenge.


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## Ermundo (Dec 19, 2005)

I'm not sure, but bitterist would mean the same thing as dangerous. I mean, the bitterist foe can do the most damange, so it's the most dangerous.


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## Arvedui (Dec 20, 2005)

Not necesarrily.
I could be a bitter foe of you or Ingwë (for instance) without actually doing anything against you.

But: 
Tulkas was restrained by the "Rules of Engagement for Valar," which Fëanor was not. Fëanor could be killed in battle, which in fact happened. Tulkas could not. So Tulkas remained a dangerous foe to Morgoth, while Fëanor was undergoing upgrade in the Halls of Mandos.


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## Ingwë (Dec 20, 2005)

> I could be a bitter foe of you or Ingwë (for instance) without actually doing anything against you.


    
You cannot do anything against me because you're in Norway  

I don't think that if Fëanor had been the bitterest foe of Melkor he wouldn't have done anything against Melkor. He would have done everything  to Melkor if he wasn't so stupid. 
We assume the things from our point of view. It depends on it. 



> Tulkas was restrained by the "Rules of Engagement for Valar," which Fëanor was not.


Maybe that stopped Tulkas from doing stupid deeds like Fëanor's


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## biggie (Dec 21, 2005)

I'd say Tulkas too cause he dont know fear, he would not be afraid of Melkor, the enemy.


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## Sangahyando (Dec 22, 2005)

I, Sangahando would think that perhaps, Orome and Ulmo were the greatest threats to Melkor's stability as self-proclaimed Lord of Arda. Think, Ulmo's powers with the House of Hador and giving Finrod and Turgon their hidden fortresses was great. And, who was it that still roamed the dark forests of Palisor ever fighting enemies of Illuvatar? Orome. Just Orome's horn, the Valaroma caused the minions of Morgoth Bauglir to flee. As well as having trained Huan, the Valarian wolfhound who killed Carcharoth by sacrificing himself! It may not have been exactly direct but it still was like that.

Sangahyando, great-grandson of Castamir the Usurper


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## Richard (Nov 12, 2006)

Not so much a person but an ideal that did in both Melkor and Sauron. That is mercy and compassion


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