# History without Melkor?



## ZehnWaters (Sep 15, 2022)

So, I was contemplating how Men and Dwarves couldn't live in Valinor for the very fact that it would consume their lives faster and that got me thinking about how that would have worked out if Melkor hadn't driven the Valar from Middle-Earth. The Valar lived in the world and regularly traversed it. The Elves would have been fine but what happens when Men wake up? Do the Valar voluntarily restrict themselves to Almaren? What was the plan exactly? Or was the way it went always the plan since Eru knew what would happen?


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## Elthir (Sep 15, 2022)

I don't think living in Aman would consume the life of a Man faster (see _Aman_, and _Aman and Mortal Men_, Morgoth's Ring).

That said, the full life of a Man would seem to be brief relative to the world around him. Employing the ratio of 1VY equals 144 SYs (as in the texts mentioned), if you, even as a young child, were given an Amanish puppy for example, you'd live out your whole life and die well before the puppy grew (changed) by even 1 "year".

Not sure if there's more in _The Nature of Middle-Earth_ on the subject, but this is how (as I read things) Tolkien explained the matter in _Morgoth's Ring_ anyway. Note too that JRRT is here thinking about the "moth in a flame" statement. . .



> " . . . and they declared also that Men would not there be blessed (as they imagined) but accursed, and would "wither even as a moth in a flame too bright"
> 
> "Beyond these words we can but go in guess. Yet we may consider the matter so. The Valar . . ."
> 
> JRRT, Aman and Mortal Men



In any case I really need to finish _The Nature of Middle-Earth_, and begin a full "digestion".

🐾


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 15, 2022)

Elthir said:


> I don't think living in Aman would consume the life of a Man faster (see _Aman_, and _Aman and Mortal Men_, Morgoth's Ring).
> 
> That said, the full life of a Man would seem to be brief relative to the world around him. Employing the ratio of 1VY equals 144 SYs (as in the texts mentioned), if you, even as a young child, were given an Amanish puppy for example, you'd live out your whole life and die well before the puppy grew (changed) by even 1 "year".


Then I suppose this still leaves me with my question: what would have happened if the Valar hadn't been driven to Valinor? Would their splendour be imbued throughout the whole world? How would man have even functioned in that environment? Or would mortality rule throughout the world and Almaren become what Valinor became?


Elthir said:


> Not sure if there's more in _The Nature of Middle-Earth_ on the subject, but this is how (as I read things) Tolkien explained the matter in _Morgoth's Ring_ anyway. Note too that JRRT is here thinking about the "moth in a flame" statement. . .
> 
> In any case I really need to finish _The Nature of Middle-Earth_, and begin a full "digestion".


NoME does, indeed, contain many, MANY more calculations. Some are even discarded so you get calculations that don't go anywhere. I was good at math but never enjoyed it so this portion of the book has gone unread for me.

Bump


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 19, 2022)

Elthir said:


> That said, the full life of a Man would seem to be brief relative to the world around him. Employing the ratio of 1VY equals 144 SYs (as in the texts mentioned), if you, even as a young child, were given an Amanish puppy for example, you'd live out your whole life and die well before the puppy grew (changed) by even 1 "year".


This I have found, and consequently still find, mind bending. The only question: what would an Amanish puppy even look like? 

For some reason now I have the desire to draw one.....


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 19, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> This I have found, and consequently still find, mind bending. The only question: what would an Amanish puppy even look like?
> 
> For some reason now I have the desire to draw one.....


Huan was a dog from Aman. So a giant puppy wolfhound?


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## Elthir (Sep 19, 2022)

In _Aman_, Morgoth's Ring, it's said to have been said [or something]:

*"There* [in Aman],* it is believed, were the counterparts of all the creatures that are or have been 
on Earth, and others also that were made for Aman only. And each kind had, as on Earth, its own nature and natural speed of growth."*


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 19, 2022)

Hmm.... Very interesting.


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 19, 2022)

Elthir said:


> In _Aman_, Morgoth's Ring, it's said to have been said [or something]:
> 
> *"There* [in Aman],* it is believed, were the counterparts of all the creatures that are or have been
> on Earth, and others also that were made for Aman only. And each kind had, as on Earth, its own nature and natural speed of growth."*


Hm. They also had an intelligence/consciousness but now soul, correct? This was how Tolkien got around them being created by the Ainur but not having "independent life".


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