# The Long Talk



## Ancalagon (Nov 5, 2009)

> ‘But if you would know, I am turning aside soon. I am going to have a long talk with Bombadil: such a talk as I have not had in all my time. He is a moss-gatherer, and I have been a stone doomed to rolling. But my rolling days are ending, and now we shall have much to say to one another.’


_The Lord of the Rings_

What do you think Gandalf would have wished to discuss with Tom Bombadil prior to his departure from Middle-Earth? Bear in mind the enigma that Tom is (and Goldberry) and the fact they remained bound to Middle-Earth while Gandalf's time was spent within it. I have a theory on Tom and Goldberry representing the biological clock of Middle-Earth, but that can be developed later. For now, apart from the goings on in recent times did their conversation take a rather more dim view of the march of industrialisation, the impending ecological disasters created by the coming age of men or the did they simply while away the hours debating the natural order of things?


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## Alcuin (Nov 5, 2009)

Gandalf’s task was to help Elves and Men in the their struggle against Sauron. Once Sauron was defeated, Gandalf had a short time in which he was largely free to do what he liked, and one of the first things he did was visit Tom Bombadil. 

I am in the camp that considers Bombadil one of the Maiar.* If that’s correct, then Gandalf and Bombadil knew one another from before the creation of Arda: neither had succumbed to the Ring nor to dominating the wills of others in Middle-earth. They were certainly kindred spirits to that degree, at least. 

Bombadil had surely been active in helping the Northern Dúnedain in their long struggle against Angmar and particularly the barrow-wights summoned by the Witch-king to infest the tombs of Cardolan. Aragorn knew him, as Frodo and his companions should have realized when he first spoke to them at Bree, and that was more than some of the Elves of Eriador at the Council of Elrond could say – a rather curious thing, if you consider that they have been living in the same general neighborhood as Iarwain ben Adar for three thousand years but never bothered to make his acquaintance. (Perhaps longevity breeds lethargy and procrastination; if so, I should live long!)

Gandalf never revealed all he knew to anyone. But visiting Bombadil – assuming that Bombadil was the same kind of creature, and had faithfully performed his own assignment – would offer him a welcome opportunity to reveal much more than usual, share more complete insights, carry messages and information back to Valinor, and strengthen and hearten a friend. If while in the currents of time angels reminisce, it seems to me that this was what they did.

-|-

*In _Letters_ 144, Tolkien said that Tom Bombadil represented “something that I feel important, though I would not be prepared to analyze the feeling precisely. I would not, however, have left him in, if he did not have some kind of function.” Bombadil’s nature is discussed elsewhere in TTF.


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## Arvedui (Nov 5, 2009)

I guess that Gandalf would have wanted to discuss the passing of the years with Tom Bombadil. To talk their way forward through the history of Middle-Earth in order to try and predict what would become of it (M-E) under the rule of Men. 
Seems to me to be a rather good combination of the experiences of the two. But I admit that it's a long shot....


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## Ancalagon (Nov 5, 2009)

> They halted and Frodo looked south wistfully. ‘I should dearly like to see the old fellow again,’ he said. ‘I wonder how he is getting on?’
> ‘As well as ever, you may be sure,’ said Gandalf. ‘Quite untroubled and I should guess, not much interested in anything that we have done or seen, unless perhaps in our visits to the Ents.



Makes you wonder though, if Tom is'nt interested in the workings of men, the downfall of Sauron or the end of the age of the Rings, then where do his loyalties lie? Surely in the earth itself, the trees, the water, the shores, the stars and everything that was created and lasting, that is of course unless its very existence is threatened! What does Tom care about?


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## Ithrynluin (Nov 5, 2009)

Well, he doesn't care about power and is not tempted by it. That alone makes me think he is not an Ainu; probably he is unique, though maybe there are other beings of his order about. In my mind, he is some kind of earth spirit that was (put) there (by Iluvatar) when Arda was formed, perhaps heavily influenced by Yavanna's part in the Music, hence the love of Nature. In saying he is not of the Ainur, I will say that power-wise I think of him as being a match for the more powerful half of the Maiar.

Anyhow, sorry for the deviation, Ancalagon. As for the actual topic, I would have to agree that they most likely got to reminiscing.


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## Bucky (Nov 5, 2009)

I think Gandalf & Bombadil tied a good one on....

I.E., they got VERY drunk and babbled on into the wee hours of the night..

End of story.

Seriously, not to ruin anyone's UUT's (utterly unsustainable theory), but as is usually (almost always, lol) the case, look at the text: Gandalf tells us exactly what he intends to talk to Bombadil about:

"He (Bombadil) is a moss-gatherer, and I have been stone doomed to rolling. Now my rolling days are ending, and we shall have much to say to one another."

Simple interpretation: Gandalf needs to learn how to stop doing, doing, doing & learn how to relax. He figures Bombadil, eldest, and happy with the simple things of Arda (the 'queer' ways of badgers, waterlillies for his honey, etc) is pretty good at that & can teach him just how to do it.


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## Starbrow (Nov 11, 2009)

I can see Gandalf bringing a keg of beer he picked up at the Prancing Pony and the two of them sitting with their feet propped up in front of a campfire. "Hey, do you remember that time in Cardolan ..."


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## Maeglin (Nov 20, 2009)

Not to toot my own horn (especially considering the thread is from 7 years ago), but here is a thread I started about this topic way back in the day. Some of you old timers may have posted in it too, so it may be worth a look in regards to this conversation. 

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?t=7100&highlight=Gandalf+Bombadil

On second thought...forget it, I just skimmed the thread again and there isn't much there. Admittedly not having read every post in this thread, I tend to be of the same opinion of Ancalagon - that Tom and Goldberry are some sort of biological clock for middle-earth, particularly when taking into consideration Tom's claim of having been there for...well...ever. I really can't decide, and this passage has always been one of - if not _the_ most - fascinating to me in the whole tale. So much possibility for critical scholarship and so many ways to read it...


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## Elfarmari (Nov 21, 2009)

Ancalagon said:


> Makes you wonder though, if Tom is'nt interested in the workings of men, the downfall of Sauron or the end of the age of the Rings, then where do his loyalties lie? Surely in the earth itself, the trees, the water, the shores, the stars and everything that was created and lasting, that is of course unless its very existence is threatened! What does Tom care about?



At the Council, when Erestor suggests that Tom could help deal with the Ring, Gandalf responds that he is "now withdrawn into a little land, within bounds that he has set, though none can see them, waiting perhaps for a chance of days, and he will not step beyond them." Also, he says that Tom might take the Ring if they begged him, but he would soon forget about it. Galdor then says that "Power to defy our Enemy is not in him, unless such power is in the earth itself." 

These parts have always made me think that Tom used to be more involved in the world at large; maybe not directly in the affairs of Elves and Men, but in the same way he is in control of his surroundings. He obviously has not always confined himself to a small forest by the Shire, since the Elves in Rivendell know of him and Gandalf says he has withdrawn. Tolkien began his writing with the intention of creating a mythology for England, and the ending of the Lord of the Rings sets the stage for "history" to occur, with the domination of Men and without the mythological Elves, Ents, and anomalies like Tom. Tom is one of the last remnants of an earlier age, and I think his withdrawal into a small world of his own devising also means he has completed or is giving up whatever responsibility or role he used to have. Before the Elves first awoke, and while they were still small in number, much of Middle-earth was uninhabited; maybe Tom was its caretaker?

As Gandalf prepared to leave Middle-earth, who better to reminisce with than someone who had seen its entire history? Given that Gandalf had successfully completed his task in Middle-earth and that Tom does not seem the type to worry about anything, I doubt they discussed any bleak possible futures. I see them talking about watching rivers begin to flow, forests taking shape, landscapes changing, the Ents finally getting their revenge, and possibly how amusing it is to be underestimated.


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## Alcuin (Nov 21, 2009)

I have always inferred from Tom’s knowledge of the Barrow-downs, dealing with the barrow-wight, Aragorn’s familiarity with him, and especially the vision Frodo and his friends had of the Kings of Arnor after their rescue that Bombadil had been quite active in helping the surviving Dúnedain.

Regarding the Barrow-downs, Tom warned the hobbits many times to avoid the tops of the mounds (where the tombs were located, making them nearer any wights that might haunt the places) and learn a little song – a spell – to summon him. (Tom certainly did appear quickly when Frodo sang, didn’t he?!) His knowledge was thorough, though one could argue that the barrow-downs were part of “his” domain, and so like Old Man Willow, part of his immediate comprehension. Still, the Barrow-downs _had been_ part of the grazing-lands of the Dúnedain of Cardolan, a place in which shepherds lived, at the least; the old tombs themselves were not fearsome places before III 1636, when “evil spirits out of Angmar and Rhudaur entered into the deserted mounds and dwelt there.” (_RotK_, Appendix A, “Eriador, Arnor, and the Heirs of Isildur”)

It could hardly be supposed that this was the first barrow-wight Tom had exorcised. For whom had he exorcised the others? Hobbits? Not likely: hobbits were likely to repeat fearsome tales of the barrow-wights, but Merry did not seem to be aware of any of them. I think Tom had driven out “evil spirits” for the Dúnedain before. Even if Cardolan was mostly deserted, for many decades, shepherds would likely have tried to use the fields for grazing again.

Aragorn knew Tom Bombadil, as his introductory remarks to Sam and Pippin revealed: “‘I need not repeat all that they said to old Bombadil…’” (_FotR_, “Strider”) Did he know Bombadil because he was an Elf-friend? or because he was the Heir of Isildur? or a companion of Gandalf’s? It cannot be simply because he was an Elf-friend, since at “The Council of Elrond”, his foster-father Elrond “‘had forgotten Bombadil’”. Perhaps Gandalf had introduced them.

I think Aragorn knew Bombadil because Bombadil himself had maintained connections with the Dúnedain. From “Fog on the Barrow-Downs”, 


> “Old knives are long enough as swords for hobbit-people,” he said. … Then he told them that these blades were forged many long years ago by Men of Westernesse: they were foes of the Dark Lord, but they were overcome by the evil king of Carn Dum in the Land of Angmar.
> 
> “Few now remember them,” Tom murmured, “yet still some go wandering, sons of forgotten kings walking in loneliness, guarding from evil things folk that are heedless.”
> 
> The hobbits did not understand his words, but as he spoke they had a vision as it were of a great expanse of years behind them, like a vast shadowy plain over which there strode shapes of Men, tall and grim with bright swords, and last came one with a star on his brow. Then the vision faded…


The “sons of forgotten kings walking in loneliness, guarding from evil things folk that are heedless” are the Rangers of the North, and the “one with a star on his brow” is unquestionably a vision of Aragorn as King of Arnor in royal regalia. (The Kings of Arnor wore the Elendilmir instead of a crown.) Bombadil’s words evoked the mental sight of individuals whom he seems to have known and remembered. 

Finally, there is the matter of the one thing Tom took for himself – or rather, for Goldberry – from the treasure of the tomb:


> He chose for himself from the pile a brooch set with blue stones, many-shaded like flax-flowers or the wings of blue butterflies. He looked long at it, as if stirred by some memory, shaking his head, and saying at last:
> 
> “Here is a pretty toy for Tom and for his lady! Fair was she who long ago wore this on her shoulder. Goldberry shall wear it now, and we will not forget her!”


That leaves no doubt that Tom and Goldberry had known the princess who had worn the brooch, and that they had been fond of her. His words bespeak of friendship, perhaps even regular interaction, with the woman whose tomb the wight had desecrated. 

Expanding on *Elfarmari*’s observation, at the Council of Elrond, 


> …Erestor [noparse][said,][/noparse] “It seems that he has a power even over the Ring.”
> 
> “No…,” said Gandalf. “Say rather that the Ring has no power over him…”


Flash back to the scene “In the House of Tom Bombadil” when 


> [noparse][Tom][/noparse] put [noparse][the Ring][/noparse] to his eye and laughed. For a second the hobbits had a vision, both comical and alarming, of his bright blue eye gleaming through a circle of gold. Then Tom put the Ring round the end of his little finger...


Tom is mocking Sauron. “[noparse][/noparse]is bright blue eye gleaming through a circle of gold” is an ingenious derogation of the Eye of Sauron, and of course, putting on the Ring and _then_ handing it back to Frodo is not only a rejection of the temptation to arrogate Power, it is overcoming one of the primary defenses of the Ring to make its bearers want to possess it. 

Perhaps it is worth considering how many people wore or handled the One Ring. 


Sauron
Isildur
Déagol found and handled it but did not wear it
Gollum
Bilbo
Frodo
Gandalf handled it but did not put it on (Jackson’s movie version is different)
Tom Bombadil
someone in Rivendell put it on a chain while Frodo recovered from the Morgul-knife
Sam
Sauron decided to rebel, and the One Ring, which he hoped to use to enslave everyone in Middle-earth, proved his undoing. Isildur was undone by it. Déagol was murdered for it. Gollum was undone by it, and undid it in return. Bilbo, under Gandalf’s guidance (angelic intervention?) was able to overcome its evil and discard it. Frodo was overcome in his penultimate trial, but was given Grace enough to deliver it to the place of its destruction. Gandalf was not overcome, though he was exceedingly wary of it. Bombadil had it and rejected it. Sam overcame it, and through his faithfulness recognized its attempts to deceive him. 

In putting on the Ring and then returning it, perhaps Tom, like Galadriel in her garden, is overcoming a test of temptation. Or maybe he’s just having fun at Sauron’s expense. I wonder how Gandalf would’ve reacted to the spectacle of Tom’s “bright blue eye gleaming through a circle of gold.” Perhaps he’d have found it funnier in the telling after the fact…


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## Rivendell_librarian (Jun 9, 2022)

Bump


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