# Stars in ME



## Firawyn (Feb 18, 2010)

I was just outside looking up at the sky and it occurred to me that I don't know anything about what the Stars are like in Middle Earth. (yes I know I'm saying this like Middle Earth does indeed exist). 

Were there constellations? Is there some list of them somewhere? 

Just a brainwave at two in the morning my time that I don't have enough energy to actually look up...and so I'm posting a thread. 

Thoughts?


----------



## r.j.c. (Feb 18, 2010)

All i know of stars in Middle Earth is that Varda created them and that atleast some of the constellations were the same. stars that's a good description.


----------



## Turgon (Feb 18, 2010)

They are the same as our stars Fir - but have different names. Some are mentioned in The Silmarillion... a couple even in LoTR I think. Orion is Menelmacar, the Swordsman of the Sky - which is probably my favourite; and the Plow is the Valacirca, the Sickle of the Valar. Given that Menelmacar is supposed to symbolise the Last Battle - I wonder if it is meant to depict Turin? I think these are the only two constellations Tolkien goes into any detail on, and interestingly they are the two most prominent constellations in the English sky - actually given all the light pollution we have these are the only two constellations you *can* make out in the night sky - whether that was true in Tolkien's day I don't know.


----------



## Confusticated (Feb 18, 2010)

Turgon, in the Annals of Aman it says that about Menelmakar. I think it is connected to the version of the prophecy as made by Andreth.


----------



## Turgon (Feb 18, 2010)

Well that's interesting. Makes sense though - I wonder if I read that and had it stored in the back of my head somewhere (the dusty part) or if it was just a logical conclusion to make? Anyway... does that make Turin the only person in Middle-earth mythology to become a constellation? Our skies are full of people. Greeks mostly - they do get about a bit!


----------



## e.Blackstar (Jun 16, 2010)

*Good question!*

While Frodo and the others are resting with the Elves on their way to Crickhollow:


> Away high in the East swung Remmirath, the Netted Stars, and slowly above the mists Borgil rose, glowing like a jewel of fire. Then by some shift of airs all the mist was drawn away like a veil, and there leaned up, as he climbed over the rim of the world, the Swordsman of the sky, Menelvagor with his shining belt.



Also there's Earendil, as referenced when Galadriel gives Frodo the phial, and "The Kindler, Varda, the Queen of the Stars", which is mentioned in Galadriel's farewell speech as the Company leaves Lorien, and who is explained as the name that the Elves call Elbereth. 

I'm almost positive that there's another reference to a Sickle, Plow, or great Bear (possibly all three), made by one of the hobbits (probably B or F). I can't find the quote at the moment, but I'll update if I come across it.


----------



## FeyFeaofFeanor (Jun 16, 2010)

*Re: Good question!*



e.Blackstar said:


> While Frodo and the others are resting with the Elves on their way to Crickhollow:
> 
> 
> Also there's Earendil, as referenced when Galadriel gives Frodo the phial, and "The Kindler, Varda, the Queen of the Stars", which is mentioned in Galadriel's farewell speech as the Company leaves Lorien, and who is explained as the name that the Elves call Elbereth.
> ...


 
I've always thought Earendil was a single star, not a constellation?


----------



## e.Blackstar (Jun 16, 2010)

*Re: Good question!*



FeyFeaofFeanor said:


> I've always thought Earendil was a single star, not a constellation?


 
Truth. I lost track of the "constellation" part while I was on my hunt for star references. Whoops. 

Also I just found this Wikipedia article that has a list of celestial bodies and their possible Earthly counterparts.


----------



## Elfarmari (Jun 17, 2010)

Earendil is the Morning star (i.e. Venus); Venus can also be an evening star, but I think Tolkien ignores that aspect, or maybe assigns another star entirely. I've always thought Remmirath refers to the Pleiades. My first thought was that Borgil (which I remember being defined somewhere as 'red-star') is Betelgeuse, but it might be Aldebaran, just judging from it's rising relative to Orion. I've always been rather impressed by the amount of attention Tolkien took to make the phases of the moon consistent throughout the Lord of the Rings, especially when the Fellowship splits.



> Carnil and Luinil, Nenar and Lumbar, Alcarinque and Elemmire she wrought in that time, and many other of the ancient stars she gathered together and set as signs in the heavens of Arda: Wilwarin, Telumendil, Soronume, and Anarrima; and Menelmacar with his shining belt, that forebodes the Last Battle that shall be at the end of days. And high in the north as a challenge to Melkor she set the crown of seven mighty stars to swing, Valacirca, the Sickle of the Valar and sign of doom. It is told that even as Varda eneded her labours, and they were long, when first Menelmacar strode up the sky and the blue fire of Helluin flickered in the mists above the borders of the world, in that hour the Children of the Earth awoke, the Firstborn of Illuvatar.


Given that the passage prefacing this in the Silmarillion refers to Varda creating 'new stars and brighter', I believe that these are probably meant to be planets, and/or Sirius and other very bright stars. Without any further clues, I have no idea what the other constellations are meant to be.


----------



## Ares B (Jun 17, 2010)

*Re: Good question!*



e.Blackstar said:


> I'm almost positive that there's another reference to a Sickle, Plow, or great Bear (possibly all three), made by one of the hobbits (probably B or F). I can't find the quote at the moment, but I'll update if I come across it.


 
At the end of the _Strider_ chapter, Frodo looks at the sky and sees the Sickle shining bright. In a footnote it's said this is the Hobbit name for the Great Bear, or the Big Dipper.


----------



## e.Blackstar (Jun 21, 2010)

*Re: Good question!*



Ares B said:


> At the end of the _Strider_ chapter, Frodo looks at the sky and sees the Sickle shining bright. In a footnote it's said this is the Hobbit name for the Great Bear, or the Big Dipper.


 
That's the one!


----------



## Anfalas (Jan 31, 2012)

Elfarmari said:


> My first thought was that Borgil (which I remember being defined somewhere as 'red-star') is Betelgeuse, but it might be Aldebaran, just judging from it's rising relative to Orion.




I've always assumed that "Red Borgil" was Mars


----------



## jallan (Feb 10, 2012)

Red Borgil is indeed the red star Aldebaran in the constellation of Orion. That fits exactly with the description in the book.

That Borgil is Beteguese is an error of Robert Foster in his _A Guide to Middle-earth_. This was despite several commentators who in the following issue of the fanzine _Niekas_ (which was publishing the work) corrected Foster. In the revised _The Complete Guide to Middle-earth_ Foster changes this to “Beteguese or Aldebaran”.

Foster seems influenced by Beteguese being the most prominent red star in Orion and he ignores entirely the text which puts Borgil in a position which shows that Borgil must be Aldebaran.


----------



## Bucky (Feb 10, 2012)

Not being into this sort of thing, I'm surprised nobody mentioned yet that Aragorn says to Boromir, I believe, in 'The Council of Elrond' that he's been to the far countries of "Rhun & Harad, where the stars are strange" ~ presumably referring just to Harad, in the southern hemisphere.


----------

