# gandalf so powerful?



## mrichy555 (Dec 18, 2002)

Ok, now i know im gonna get flamed by you hardcore tolkein fans, but here goes... i read the books when i was 13 so i forgot them mostly, but i saw the two towers in the movie theathers, and fotr. now im wondering if gandalf is so powerful, how come he hardly uses his power? he seems to prefer hand to hand combat over his power. i mean so many times it seems he could have just casted spells. that battle of helms deep he didnt cast one spell he just rode in and charged. now i dont get it, why didnt he just cast spells??


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## HLGStrider (Dec 19, 2002)

The easiest way to put it is Wizards (or istari) do not work that way.

You're thinking the Harry Potter sort. Istari sort do not work with Spells. They are vessels bearing power which they release. Spells are saying words or putting together potions that have power.

The Istari draw their strength from the Valar and are angel like creatures. There was one bad Vala and that is where Sauron got his strength. They also have strength of their own, but it isn't worked through spells. It is power more than magic.

Someone else can probably be more accurate.


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## mrichy555 (Dec 19, 2002)

thx for clearing that up, i think its time i read the books again. lol. also another thing while were on this subject. if isliador, or however thats spelt, was able to defeat sauron, then whats so scary about him? i mean surely gandalf and aragorn and his companions were more skilled then aragorns heir right? if isliador defeated sauron, why couldnt they just beat him again even if he took physical form?


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## HLGStrider (Dec 19, 2002)

It took millions of lifes to get Isildur in striking position, an alliance of power.

The Numenorean race was diminished and the Elves were (and had in some cases) fleeing over the sea. There were not enough to do that again. 

Isildur only temporarily undid Sauron, and they didn't want a temporary fix. Sauron was bested by several people. Gil-Gilad and Elrond together were a force greater than Gandalf, espcecially before he became Gandalf the White. With the Ring he was very powerful. 

Get your name, by the way... Mr. Richy... or is it Spencer?


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## mrichy555 (Dec 19, 2002)

my god you know your stuff. im going to buy the books tommorow now cause i have to know everything. mrichy is just a culmination of my first and last name. thank you once again for shedding some light on the subject for me.


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## HLGStrider (Dec 19, 2002)

Dang... I thought I'd finally found someone else who'd seen the Man Who New Too Little... Hero's name is Wallace Richy.

Anyway. 

Glad I could help. I'm normally around here.


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## Húrin Thalion (Dec 19, 2002)

Also the wizards were ordered only to encourage men and elves to fight, not match Sauron wiht power. That is understandable for the last time they overthrew a dark lord half western middle earth sank in the ocean.

Húrin Thalion


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## Lantarion (Dec 19, 2002)

Good point, Húrin. 
Although I must say that the situation was completely different then.. First off, the 'dark lord' happened to be Melkor, arguably the most powerful Ainu ever to come into existence, and not just a rather powerful Maia.. Sauron is a puny little pile of smouldering dung compared to Morgoth! 
And secondly, 'last time' that a dark lord was overthrown the Istari weren't even around, and I think it is a unanimous opinion that they were not especially powerful Maiar; there were certainly Maiar involved (and the Valar, woot), but they were all had much greater in power than the Istari were when they were sent to Middle-Earth (Cf. Eönwë, Melian). 

Welcome to the forums, Mrichy!  I suggest you read the Silmarillion; apart from containing myriads of information about the world in general, it is also (at least IMHO) Tolkien's greatest work of literature.

PS: the Man Who New Too Little rocks!!


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## mrichy555 (Dec 19, 2002)

ok i see people talkign as is melkor and morgoth are one in the same? are they? (sigh, feels so unworthy to even be here)


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## Lantarion (Dec 19, 2002)

Don't worry; as a teacher of mine once said: "This is not de marketplace! This is a classroom, a place for learning!" 
Melkor is the original name of the Ainu (all Maiar and Valar are AInur ) who was given almost the most power by God, Eru Ilúvatar. But M. turned bad, and began to covet these things called the Silmarils, which were made by an Elf called Fëanor (who was quite a nasty character). And when melkor took the Sils, Fëanor named him _Morgoth_, which is Sindarin for 'black enemy', called in the Sil mainly just 'the Enemy'.
Melkor is probably some archaic form of Quenya, which means 'he who arises in might'.


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## Húrin Thalion (Dec 19, 2002)

You are not unworthy, only very welcome! Melkor and Morgoth are the same person, he was given the second name after destroying the two trees in Valinor that gave light to the world, killing th king of the Noldor (an elven people) and stealing the silmarils.

Húrin Thalion


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## mrichy555 (Dec 19, 2002)

ok now i see. thx for the warm welcome. ok, so now lemme get this straight, the valor came to middle earth in opposition of melkor himself?


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## Rúmil (Dec 19, 2002)

Yes. The Valar fought Melkor in person at the beginning op time, and again sent their most powerful Maia as a military sending-force at the end of the First Age, when it was made clear that Morgoth could not be vanquished by the free peoples, and when the Noldor had suffered enough to expiate their sins. In later ages, since the resource of the free peoples was enough to overcome Morgoth's successor Sauron without actual military help, they sent no-one to aid the Last Alliance, and only the Istari as a moral support and a coordinating force at the end of the Third Age.


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## HLGStrider (Dec 19, 2002)

HORRAY! LANT KNOWS THE MAN WHO KNEW TOO LITTLE!

Elgee subsides...

Why'd this get moved, anyway? It would go just as well in the LotR's section, and if I were a newbie I would feel depressed people moving my threads... ...

but I'm easily effected by emotions and also believe that I am being stocked by a red head on this forum.... looks around with shifty eyes.


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## Celebithil (Dec 20, 2002)

*Istari*

I always thought that the Istari were around for the fight with Melkor, they may not have been in their current forms but I didn't think that they could be spontaneously generated. They could have been whispy ghost things or something but I believed that they would still be in existance. Also isn't Sauron himself a corrupted Maiar not that his powers came from a Maiar.


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## HLGStrider (Dec 20, 2002)

Yes, Sauron is a corrupted Maia.

No, I don't believe they were ever whispy things around M.E. They showed up in their bodies.

No, they weren't there to fight Melkor directly. They came to M.E. after he left it. They were there to fight Sauron and direct Elves and Men.

They did pre-exist, but that was over the sea in the undying lands, and I'm fairly sure they had bodies, if not the same one.

The problems you are seeing was because it was late and in my first post I continually put Maia when I meant Vala.... sorry... hits herself in the head. I am not responsible for my actions at that time of night.

goes to edit original post...


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## Celebithil (Dec 20, 2002)

*What i meant*

I meant that they pre-existed over the western shores not in ME and didn't just pop out of nowhere to fight Sauron. I just wasn't aware of what form they would have been in.


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## faila (Dec 20, 2002)

wow you people know your stuff.

In the lord of the rings trilogy it is true that their are very few references to gandalf using his power. I thought it might of been some conservation that he had to do. But now i know the truth. 

And also isnt it also true that sometimes if he fights another magical creature the magics cnacel each other out so he has to go to hand to hand combat? (for instance with the balrog)


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