# How old is The Mouth of Sauron?



## Edhel-dûr (Jun 23, 2002)

Aiya dear friends,

my question is very simple, or perhaps not XD.

How old do you think is the Mouth of Sauron?

I´m very interested to know wath you think about it, theoryes are admitted.

Greetings.


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## Denethor (Jun 23, 2002)

*age of the mouth of sauron*

he must be as old as Gandalf cuz he seem to know him very well


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## Gamil Zirak (Jun 24, 2002)

He can't be too old because he was a mortal man, but I don't think we are specificaly told his age. I would guess that he was between 50 and 70 years old. He must have been ranked fairly high if he was going to take Saruman's place at Orthanc.


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## Beorn (Jun 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Gamil Zirak _
> *He can't be too old because he was a mortal man, but I don't think we are specificaly told his age. I would guess that he was between 50 and 70 years old. He must have been ranked fairly high if he was going to take Saruman's place at Orthanc. *



That could be arguable. What if Sauron had made something for him to extend his life...look at the Nazgul...Maybe he just hadn't gotten to 'wraithness' yet...


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## Gamil Zirak (Jun 24, 2002)

Like another ring for him? I guess he could have worn a dwarven ring. There were also other lesser rings forged at the same time as the rings of power.


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## pohuist (Jun 24, 2002)

Wasn't he a black Numenorean?


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## Tyaronumen (Jun 24, 2002)

Yes, but my understanding is that the Black Numenoreans waned more quickly than the Faithful...? 

I think the Mouth is probably around 50-70 as others here have mentioned... there is no indication that the Mouth is any more or less important or powerful than we are given to understand in the book... a mortal man high in the service of Sauron would be my guess.

And why not? Why wouldn't Sauron value men of normal countenance to negotiate with those whom he was not attempting to dominate (yet)...?


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## Edhel-dûr (Jun 25, 2002)

And do you think that in 50-60 years anyone con forget his own name? XD.

Greetings.


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## Gamil Zirak (Jun 25, 2002)

He could have been raised from birth by Sauron's minions and he only had a name as a baby and nothing more. That is a good point though.


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## pohuist (Jun 25, 2002)

It doesn't seem plausible to me that Sauron would make a regular mortal man his lietenant and put him in command at orthanc.


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## Ithrynluin (Jul 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by pohuist _
> *It doesn't seem plausible to me that Sauron would make a regular mortal man his lietenant and put him in command at orthanc. *



Being a Numenorean would make this man more skilled and worthy of Sauron's service than an Easterling or one of the Haradrim.He had greater mental and physical capabilities because he was Numenorean IMO.
As for his age,he is certainly at least 70 yrs old,cause he entered the service of Barad-dur "when it first rose again" - that was in TA 2951.
(see ROTK, The Black Gate Opens)


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## aragil (Jul 23, 2002)

Hmm, I had always taken his age to be much greater, and I thought the implication in _The Black Gate Opens_ was that he had magically extended his lifespan, forgetting unimportant details like his name in the process. Aragorn was 87 at the time, and had done no such delving into Necromancy (and was in pretty good physical condition). 
Also, I don't think all of the Black Numenoreans were entirely evil- some of the King's kin fled Gondor relatively late (after the civil war) and joined the Corsairs of Umbar. I don't know if this would qualify them as Black Numenoreans per se, but they might have still had a relatively long life span at the time of the War of the Ring. The Mouth was undoubtedly evil, but how long did it take for 'evil living' to shorten the Numenorean's lifespan? One generation, two generations? Several of the Blackest Kings of Numenor still lived longer than Elessar.
ithrynluin- good find on the quote. But I wonder, might Tolkien have been referring to when Mordor was re-occupied (~TA 2000)?


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## Ithrynluin (Jul 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by aragil _
> *ithrynluin- good find on the quote. But I wonder, might Tolkien have been referring to when Mordor was re-occupied (~TA 2000)? *



Hmm...I don't know. I think it's better that the quote be taken literally.i just don't get "a very ancient feeling" when thinking or reading about the Mouth of Sauron.I have no further arguments to prove this though.


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## aragil (Jul 23, 2002)

See, that's exactly the feeling I get, but I haven't read the passage in some time. I have a sneaking suspicion that my thoughts are clouded by a certain supplement, one which gives a lot of interesting info on Middle-earth, but is by no means the gospel-according-to-Tolkien.


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## Brent (Jul 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by aragil _
> *Hmm, I had always taken his age to be much greater, and I thought the implication in The Black Gate Opens was that he had magically extended his lifespan, forgetting unimportant details like his name in the process. Aragorn was 87 at the time, and had done no such delving into Necromancy (and was in pretty good physical condition).
> Also, I don't think all of the Black Numenoreans were entirely evil- some of the King's kin fled Gondor relatively late (after the civil war) and joined the Corsairs of Umbar. I don't know if this would qualify them as Black Numenoreans per se, but they might have still had a relatively long life span at the time of the War of the Ring. The Mouth was undoubtedly evil, but how long did it take for 'evil living' to shorten the Numenorean's lifespan? One generation, two generations? Several of the Blackest Kings of Numenor still lived longer than Elessar.
> ithrynluin- good find on the quote. But I wonder, might Tolkien have been referring to when Mordor was re-occupied (~TA 2000)? *



I agree with the Man from Montana. A couple of 100 years at least.
1. He's a Black Numenorean, so his span shorter than the "faithful" or not is still going to go over 100.
2. He's Sauron's lieutenant, so a lot of perks in that job - Sauron may be Evil but he sure has a lot of knowledge locked away. He showed the Noldor how to forge the rings, if there was any way to extend your span in ME, you can bet Sauron knew about it - its also holding off the "gift of death" so evil points to be had there.
3. Sauron trusted him - the Nazgul where totally his puppets but the mouth still had his own thoughts, a very useful foil for a Dark Lord to have and worth keeping. Take alot of time to find someone with the right qualities of intellect and loyalty and then train them up.

No IMHO the Mouth was already old and evil when he joined the service of the Dark Lord and it was in Sauron's intests to keep him alive and if Sauron bent his will to such thoughts ......


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## Ithrynluin (Jul 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Brent _
> *2. He's Sauron's lieutenant, so a lot of perks in that job - Sauron may be Evil but he sure has a lot of knowledge locked away. He showed the Noldor how to forge the rings, if there was any way to extend your span in ME, you can bet Sauron knew about it - its also holding off the "gift of death" so evil points to be had there.
> and then train them up.*



I don't think a Maia,even Sauron,had such powers to extend someone's life just like that.Correct me if I'm wrong,but in all the previous "life-extending" instances,Iluvatar was involved and even the Valar had no powers over the destinies of Iluvatar's children.
So the only possibility that the Mouth is much older is for him to possess one of the dwarven rings IMHO.


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## Gamil Zirak (Jul 23, 2002)

We have no proof that the dwarven rings extend your life. Durin the Deathless lived a really really long time and never had one of the rings of power.


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## Brent (Jul 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *
> 
> I don't think a Maia,even Sauron,had such powers to extend someone's life just like that.Correct me if I'm wrong,but in all the previous "life-extending" instances,Iluvatar was involved and even the Valar had no powers over the destinies of Iluvatar's children.
> So the only possibility that the Mouth is much older is for him to possess one of the dwarven rings IMHO. *



Well I didn't really mean "just like that" and Sauron made the rings of power which etc etc etc. 

I have no idea how he's that old, just that the impression I get is that he's very very very old, not merely 80 or 90. I assume from your post you agree, though for different reasons - which of course could be right !!


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## Lantarion (Jul 25, 2002)

Sauron didn't make the Rings of Power, the Mírdain of Eregion did. Sauron only helped them with his knowledge.

I think the Mouth was about 100-120, because the Númenóreans did have prolonged life; and I think Sauron might have given him one of the Dwarf-rings which (I would assume) gives the wearer a more steadfast spirit and a greater resistance to ware and age. But I think Sauron has had more than just one 'Mouth', or herald, to speak for him. Maybe the Mouth in the LotR was, eg., the fourth in line, and the ones before him had been slain or had just keeled over?


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## Gamil Zirak (Jul 25, 2002)

I like the idea of the Mouth of Sauron as being several lines of men. I'm not big on them having a dwarf ring though.


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## Brent (Jul 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Lantarion _
> *Sauron didn't make the Rings of Power, the Mírdain of Eregion did. Sauron only helped them with his knowledge.*



I think not. I think you will find that Sauron AKA Annatar was behind the rings of power, three were forged without him and ONLY those three are pure, the others had his hand upon them. I'm sure if you read the works you will find this stated.
If you work in a smithy the smith wont just tell you what to do, he will show you with his own creation and shape yours, hands on.
Sauron moulded those rings to his purpose.

It is the THREE that took his pure Maia knowledge, uncontaminated by his malice and desire that therefore made something good.
Knowledge is neither good nor evil only the use of it proves anything. The Noldor where not capable of making such things alone, nor had they ever done so, it was Sauron alone who came amongst them and understood the desires of their hearts. 
There is a fine line between the Noldor's desires and the Saurons. That is one of the themes of LOTS - the sole desire to create and take pleasure in creation and the desire to totally own and dominate that creation. I assume Sauron started that way as a Maia of Aule and then he lost his way.


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## Gamil Zirak (Jul 25, 2002)

Sauron only forged the one. The elves forged the nine and seven, but Sauron directed them in their making.


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## Lantarion (Jul 25, 2002)

Hmm.. Can we have a tie-breaker opinion from somebody here?


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## Gamil Zirak (Jul 25, 2002)

Whoa Pontifex, I mean Lantarion. Nice new name!!

Ok, back on subject. Too bad Tolkien didn't leave a letter liying around about the mouth. Imagine all of the questions he would get if he was alive now. Sheesh.


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## Grond (Jul 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Beorn _
> *That could be arguable. What if Sauron had made something for him to extend his life...look at the Nazgul...Maybe he just hadn't gotten to 'wraithness' yet... *


I disagree with the formidible Beorn.


> _From The Return of the King, The Black Gate Opens,_
> *The rider was robed all in black, and black was his lofty helm; yet this was no Ringwraith but a living man. The Lieutenant of the Tower of Barad-dur he was, and his name is remembered in no tale; for he himself had forgotten it, and he said: 'I am the Mouth of Sauron.' But it is told that he was a renegade, who came of the race of those that are named the Black Numenoreans; for they established their dwellings in Middle-earth during the years of Sauron's domination, and they worshipped him, being enamoured of evil knowledge. And he entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again, and because of his cunning he grew ever higher in the Lord's favour; and he learned great sorcery, and knew much of the mind of Sauron; and he was more cruel than any orc. *


The Dark Tower began to be rebuilt in 2951, so it can be guessed that the Mouth of Sauron would be about the same age as Aragorn who was born in the TA 2931.


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## Grond (Jul 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Brent _
> *I think not. I think you will find that Sauron AKA Annatar was behind the rings of power, three were forged without him and ONLY those three are pure, the others had his hand upon them. I'm sure if you read the works you will find this stated.
> If you work in a smithy the smith wont just tell you what to do, he will show you with his own creation and shape yours, hands on.
> Sauron moulded those rings to his purpose.
> ...





> _From The Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age,_
> *...Therefore they hearkened to Sauron, and they learned of him many things, for his knowledge was great. In those days the smiths of Ost-in-Edhil surpassed all that they had contrived before; and they took thought, and they made Rings of Power. But Sauron guided their labours, and he was aware of all that they did; for his desire was to set a bond upon the Elves and to bring them under his vigilance.
> 
> Now the Elves make many rings; but secretly Sauron made one Ring to rule all the others, and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly to it and to last only so long as it too should last. And much of the strength and will of Sauron passed into that One Ring; for the power of the Elven-rings was very great, and that which should govern them must be a thing of surpassing potency; and Sauron forged it in the Mountain of Fire in the Land of Shadow. and while he wore the One Ring he could perceive all the things that were done by means of the lesser rings and he could see and govern the very thoughts of those that wore them.*


In Unfinished Tales it speaks of the Nine and the Seven being made with Sauron's aid but it also speaks of him leaving Eregion in SA 1500 shortly after the Rings of Power had begun being forged. That could mean that he took part in the early forging of the Nine and the Seven or that he simply provided guidance in their crafting. The Three were completely unsullied by Sauron's influence but since the knowledge came from his teachings, they too were subservient to the One. 

Brent, I am surprised at your comments concerning the Three and your statement that


> "It is the THREE that took his pure Maia knowledge, uncontaminated by his malice and desire that therefore made something good. Knowledge is neither good nor evil only the use of it proves anything. The Noldor where not capable of making such things alone, nor had they ever done so, it was Sauron alone who came amongst them and understood the desires of their hearts."


 You must have forgotten who it was that made those things which surpassed the Rings of Power and which even surpassed the creation of the Ruling Ring. Those things were the Silmarils and the one who created them was Feanor, a Noldo. Shame on you!!!!


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## aragil (Jul 28, 2002)

Grr-ond? Who is this Gr-ond the message board speaks of?

I think I disagree with you on the Mouth being the same age as Aragorn. We know he entered the service of Sauron in 2951, but we don't know if this was an act of youth or old age. As has been pointed out before, the Mouth had forgotten his own age. Two details we do know of him, he had forgotten his own name and he had 'learned great sorcery'. Given that we don't hear anything about him again, it behooves us to think about these two details. Hmm, he can ride a horse, he's great at sorcery, and Sauron trusts him as an emissary. If he's great at sorcery then he's probably not exactly a mental midget- so no need to forget his own name in order to remember more important things. On the other hand, he's still able to ride a horse and act as an effective (i.e. cruel) emissary, so he's probably not suffering from senility. I don't think it's normal for an 80 year old who is 1)smart and 2)not senile to forget his own name, so I must assume that he is far older than you suggest. Fortunately, there is plenty to back me up on this, of the sort:

_from the Silmarillion_


> Now this yearning grew ever greater with the years; and the Numenoreans began to hunger for the undying city tht they saw from afar, and the desire of everlasting life, to escape from death and the ending of delight, grew strong upon them; and ever as their power and glory grew greater their unquiet increased.


 and


> But the fear of death grew ever dearker upon them, and they delayed it by all means that they could; and they began to build great houses for thier dead, while thier wise men laboured unceasingly to discover if they might the secret of recalling life, or at the least of the prolonging of Men's days.



Certainly, the possibility that Mouthy had learned some of these secrets exists, and this would go some way to explaining his 2 peculiar characteristics, IMO.


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## Grond (Jul 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by aragil _
> *...Certainly, the possibility that Mouthy had learned some of these secrets exists, and this would go some way to explaining his 2 peculiar characteristics, IMO. *


There is nothing you quote that lends any credence to any Man prolonging his life beyond his normal years other than the Ringwraiths who ceased to be Men and became only shades of themselves. The Mouth of Sauron was clearly not a Wraith (from the author's own words) and was a Man of likely Black Numenorean descent. I have my own evidence directly from the Sil.


> _The Silmarillion, The Akallabêth,_
> *For though the Valar had rewarded the Dúnedain with long life, they could not take from them the weariness of the world that comes at last, and they died, even their kings of the seed of Eärendil; and the span of their lives was brief in the eyes of the Eldar.*


It seems to me that if the Valar themselves could not take the weariness of the world from Man, then Man himself most certainly could not do so... but I could be wrong.


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## aragil (Jul 29, 2002)

Well, I'll agree with you in that he was _at least_ as old as Aragorn. But why would Tolkien say that Mouthy had forgotten his own name, if not to hint at great age (beyond the long span of Numenoreans)? Shirley this was a hint, and not just mis-spent verbiage?

Remember, your quote from the Akallabeth is in regards to whether or not the Valar could change the fundamental nature of Men, from mortal to immortal (within the confines of Arda, as always). However, your quote does prove that the length of Men's stay in Arda could be lengthened- here by gift of the Valar (elsewhere it is said that the Numenoreans live longer because their lifestyle approached that of the Eldar). We are also told that the lifespans of the Edain immediately increased the moment they set foot in Beleriand- the first three Generations of Beor's house lived past their 90th year, when beforehand the Men of Beor's house had usually died of old age by ~70.
So I think there is evidence that Men's lifespan could be extended- naturally in the case of the Dunedain, perhaps unnaturally in the case of Mouthy. Again I have to ask, why else would he forget his true name, and why would Tolkien mention 'great sorcery', when Mouthy does not seem to demonstrate this talent at the Gates?

(edit) oops, fogot to mention: My above quote does not show that Numenoreans ever discovered how to extend their lives (indeed I omitted the part immediately following which says that all the Numenoreans could learn to do was preserve the bodies in death). However, it does show that the Numenoreans were concerned with extending their life, and they put a considerable amount of effort into finding it. The Black Numenoreans (and hence mouthy) were descended from these darker elements in Numenor, so perhaps (just perhaps) Mouthy is an example of a BN who finally did stumble upon the long sought-after secret, perhaps (again perhaps) making his discovery with the aid of Sauron.


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## Brent (Jul 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Grond _
> *Brent, I am surprised at your comments concerning the Three and your statement that You must have forgotten who it was that made those things which surpassed the Rings of Power and which even surpassed the creation of the Ruling Ring. Those things were the Silmarils and the one who created them was Feanor, a Noldo. Shame on you!!!!  *



Well I see it a little differently, I'm not sure the Silmarils "surpassed" the ruling ring that depends on how you look at it. [Ahhh! the wrath of Grond, quick leap aside !!] the Rings are active things, that bring about change to conform to ones will, the Silmarils simply exist, if they have any powers at all these are the result of the light within them which is that created by the Valar.

The rings represent a desire to control, to shape. Such desire can be good or evil, though of course its the first steps down a certain path throughtout the books. The ONE contains the dark spirit of Sauron so would ultimately corrupt the wearer.


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## Gamil Zirak (Jul 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Brent _
> *
> ... the Silmarils simply exist, if they have any powers at all these are the result of the light within them which is that created by the Valar.
> *


If the ruling ring has any power it's because of the power of Sauron poored into it.


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## Eriol (Jul 23, 2003)

What a little gem of a thread .

I think like aragil; I think that M-o-S is much older than Aragorn. One point that I think was not raised is that Sauron was known as the Necromancer; it is the business of Necromancers to prolong life by wicked (cursed) means, as well of raising the dead. Perhaps Sauron did stumble on some knowledge for prolonging life (genetic engineering? ). 

My reasons for agreeing with Aragil are also similar to his own -- the fact that M-o-S forgot his own name is very telling, and the fact that he was a sorceror, as well as trusted by Sauron. The "young M-o-S" hypothesis (that is, as young as Aragorn) does not appeal to me, unless we accept Lantarion's speculation that "Mouth of Sauron" was _an office_; a line of men holding that office would explain a lot, then. A very interesting idea! This would still result in a man roughly the same age as Aragorn, but it would give a good reason for him to forget his name -- he would have had to drop it and take the name of the office.


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