# Proof that dragons are stronger than balrogs



## Turin_Turambar (Sep 11, 2021)

Under the inscription of the balrog in this book, it is written that the most powerful creatures that Melkor has created are dragons.








A Dictionary of Tolkien


Arranged in a handy A-Z format, A Dictionary of Tolkien explores and explains the creatures, plants, events and places that make up these strange and wonderful lands. It is essential reading for anyone who loves Tolkien's works and wants to learn more about them. This book is unofficial and is...



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A Dictionary of Tolkien


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## grendel (Sep 11, 2021)

Well, that might be because Melkor did not really _create_ the Balrogs. They were (correct me if I'm wrong) a form of Maia that he corrupted to his service, but as Maia were created by Eru or at least were a creation of His Music.


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## m4r35n357 (Sep 12, 2021)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> Under the inscription of the balrog in this book, it is written that the most powerful creatures that Melkor has created are dragons.


According to that legendary "author" . . .


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## Olorgando (Sep 12, 2021)

m4r35n357 said:


> According to that legendary "author" . . .


I was wondering if it could be ...
And though I could read little in Ecthelion's link, I did find the name David Day.
I do have two books by Day, probably from our early-1990's vacation by own car in Ireland.
One is the coffee-table hardcover of "A Tolkien Bestiary", a 1992 reprint of the 1979 original. (ISBN 1 85732 084 0)
The other is the paperback "The Tolkien Companion" from 1993 (ISBN 0-7493-1594-6), which on the copyright page states that "Some of the material in this book originally appeared in The (!) Tolkien Bestiary and / or The Tolkien Encyclopedia, © Mitchell Beazley Publishers 1979, 1991."
"A Dictionary of Tolkien" is stated as being from 2013 as per the English Wikipedia article on David Day.
Skimming my "Bestiary" and my "Companion", I have the impression that they are almost identical in content, so "*Some* of the material ..." seems to be a serious understatement.
So after the "Bestiary" the "Encyclopedia", then the "Companion", and later the "Dictionary" ... I wouldn't be surprised that each installment was a retread of the earlier one(s).
And btw under the entry "Balrogs", both of my books have the identical wording:

"Of all Melkor's *creatures*, only Dragons were greater in power."

Creatures, not creations. JRRT was quite adamant about "The Enemy) (be he Melkor / Morgoth or Sauron) could not create, only corrupt and make a mockery of the originally. I believe it's in LoTR, though I can't find it offhand. My guess is that it's either Treebeard speaking to Merry and Pipping, of Frodo to Sam.


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## Elthir (Sep 12, 2021)

OT, but my new cologne 
is exceedingly powerful. 

But don't apply too much!


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 12, 2021)




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## m4r35n357 (Sep 12, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> I was wondering if it could be ...
> And though I could read little in Ecthelion's link, I did find the name David Day.


Yep, it is in the picture as you saw.



Olorgando said:


> Creatures, not creations. JRRT was quite adamant about "The Enemy) (be he Melkor / Morgoth or Sauron) could not create, only corrupt and make a mockery of the originally. I believe it's in LoTR, though I can't find it offhand. My guess is that it's either Treebeard speaking to Merry and Pipping, of Frodo to Sam.


The story about "limits to creation" is from the SIlmarillion, and Dwarves are used as an example of how it works.

Interestingly, in the pre-LotR Silmarillion, the valar _could_ create "according to nature of their powers". So Morgoth could create "humanoid" creatures (just grotesque ones) because he had a part of all the other Valar's skills. Again, Aule made the Dwarves, and they were good at digging.


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## Olorgando (Sep 12, 2021)

m4r35n357 said:


> The story about "limits to creation" is from the Silmarillion, and Dwarves are used as an example of how it works.


The point about the Dwarves as Aulë created them, in the published Sil section _Quenta Silmarillion_ chapter 2 "Of Aulë and Yavanna", is that they could only "[move] when thou thinkest to move them, and if thy thought be elsewhere, standing idle. Is that thy desire?" Ilûvatar then gave the Dwarves independent life due to Aulë's humility, "adopted" them, so to speak.
But I'm certain that a statement about "The Enemy" not being able to create, only corrupt in mockery, is also in the LoTR, I just can't find it off the bat.


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## m4r35n357 (Sep 12, 2021)

No offence intended, it gave me an opportunity to give the earlier idea an airing 
The bit you mention sounds like a conversation between Gandalf and a Hobbit . . . in Minas Tirith?


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## Olorgando (Sep 12, 2021)

m4r35n357 said:


> The bit you mention sounds like a conversation between Gandalf and a Hobbit . . . in Minas Tirith?


Another possibility. My guesses were Treebeard speaking to Merry and Pippin at some point, though I tend more to the other one, about Frodo speaking to Sam after the split of the Fellowship.


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## Elthir (Sep 12, 2021)

*Gando*, maybe you're thinking of Frodo in the chapter _The Tower of Cirith Ungol._

Sam: "Don't orcs eat, and don't they drink? . . ."

[although generally speaking, there is more to be said about this matter as Tolkien turned back to "Silmarillion writings" when _The Lord of the Rings_ was "finished" but not yet published]


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## Alcuin (Sep 12, 2021)

*Balrogs* are fallen Maiar, creatures that existed before Arda came into being. They are the same _kind_ of creature as Gandalf, Eönwë, or Sauron (who after his first body or avatar was destroyed in the Downfall of Númenor took on a form that much resembled that of a Balrog). Morgoth did not make them; Eru did. Their appearance is part of their downfallen condition, but their strength and abilities are part of their nature. 

*Dragons* are creatures bred by Morgoth from an unknown stock. Tolkien says Glaurung was the first of the fire-breathing dragons; flying dragons (such as Smaug) did not appear until the War of Wrath at the end of the First Age. 

I do not know that I agree with the assertion that “dragons are stronger than balrogs.”


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## Olorgando (Sep 12, 2021)

Elthir said:


> *Gando*, maybe you're thinking of Frodo in the chapter _The Tower of Cirith Ungol._
> Sam: "Don't orcs eat, and don't they drink? . . ."


Bingo, E/A!
Sam: "Don't orcs eat, and don't they drink? Or do they just live on foul air and poison?"
Frodo: "No, they eat and drink, Sam. The Shadow that bred them can only mock, it cannot make: not real new things of its own. I don't think it gave life to the orcs, it only ruined them and twisted them; and if they are to live at all, they have to live like other living creatures."


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 13, 2021)

David Day has been a cottage industry of Tolkien-related books for 40 years. The Dictionary was the first of a series of little "leather-bound" (?) books that have been gathered into a boxed set:



Prematurely, it turns out, as at least one more, The Ring Legends of Tolkien, has appeared since then. I recall reading a few comments about mistakes and things left out, but I'll leave it to you to search for them. I can't resist posting this one, though:




Physically, they're nice little books, I have to say, and make an attractive set.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 13, 2021)

m4r35n357 said:


> Aule made the Dwarves, and they were good at digging.







(I couldn't resist that, either).


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## m4r35n357 (Sep 13, 2021)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> (I couldn't resist that, either).


Wow, that is _really_ impressive, not yer usual interwebs meme fare. A _lot_ of work in there!

Found this too . . . History of Diggy Diggy Hole!

[EDIT Yuck, just noticed the Dwarf-pubes ]


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## m4r35n357 (Sep 13, 2021)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> (I couldn't resist that, either).


BTW so much "Tolkien-inspired" music is boring & predictable IMO (Folk/ambient for Elves, Death metal for Orcs etc). What do you think of something like this for the Dunland National Anthem? (you seem to be the obvious person to ask)


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## Olorgando (Sep 13, 2021)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> David Day has been a cottage industry of Tolkien-related books for 40 years. The Dictionary was the first of a series of little "leather-bound" (?) books that have been gathered into a boxed set:
> Prematurely, it turns out, as at least one more, The Ring Legends of Tolkien, has appeared since then. I recall reading a few comments about mistakes and things left out, but I'll leave it to you to search for them. I can't resist posting this one, though:
> 
> View attachment 10334
> ...


Yes, David Day does not seem to come up to the standard of the more serious JRRT scholars. He had been commissioned by HarperCollins to write _The Hobbit Companion_, but ran afoul of Christopher. The book was published by another publisher, and a revised version later got the approval of the Tolkien estate.
I suppose part of the problem for authors like Day is restricted, or even total lack of, access to unpublished material under control of the Tolkien estate.
But then I noted the huge overlap between the 1979 / 1992 "Bestiary" and the 1993 "Companion". I'm wondering if Day is recycling his material in ever new arrangements. Now, especially "Beren and Lúthien" and "The Fall of Gondolin" assembled material spread over several volume of HoMe, so Christopher Tolkien has been down that path, too.
@Squint-eyed Southerner : are the six books in that boxed set all in the form of dictionaries or encyclopedias?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 13, 2021)

I don't know; I looked through only the Dictionary, and perhaps the Atlas, when they came out. You should be able to find descriptions online.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 13, 2021)

m4r35n357 said:


> BTW so much "Tolkien-inspired" music is boring & predictable IMO (Folk/ambient for Elves, Death metal for Orcs etc). What do you think of something like this for the Dunland National Anthem? (you seem to be the obvious person to ask)


Who, me? 😮

I'm no expert! But I didn't know the Dunlendings were into rockabilly. Though they might be greasers. 😂

My first reaction was "way too much armor". Dunlendings were notoriously poor and ill-armed.

Well, you can find my own "ideas" in the Music for Middle-earth thread -- I think I suggested Heilung for Dunland. 😂 But feel free to add something you think appropriate. I was trying to restrict it to music that might have been capable of actually being heard in ME, but that "rule" was broken almost immediately -- including by me! -- so go at it. 😊

Here's the thread:
[URLp unfurl="true"]https://www.thetolkienforum.com/threads/music-for-middle-earth.23727/[/URL]

I think now I may have put it in the wrong forum.

Sorry for derailing your thread, Ecthelion! 😐
If it helps, I can quote from a comment a I saw on the "Diggy" video: 

"I am a dragon, and I'm hoarding my gold,
Hoardy hoardy gold, hoardy hoardy gold".

It has a nice "ring" to it, no? 😀


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## Barliman (Sep 13, 2021)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> David Day has been a cottage industry of Tolkien-related books for 40 years.


I have copies of a few of his books, but only because I got them cheap at Sams Club.


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## Barliman (Sep 13, 2021)

m4r35n357 said:


> BTW so much "Tolkien-inspired" music is boring & predictable IMO (Folk/ambient for Elves, Death metal for Orcs etc). What do you think of something like this for the Dunland National Anthem? (you seem to be the obvious person to ask)


I've always imagined much of the music would be more along the lines of traditional follk.
Elven more like Loreena McKennitt
Some of the dwarf songs in the style of Steeleye Span's Boys of Bedlam.
Rohan more military of course.
So far I haven't heard much I really like.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 13, 2021)

Barliman said:


> So far I haven't heard much I really like.


*Ahem* 
Maybe you'll find some in the Music for ME thread.


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## Olorgando (Sep 14, 2021)

Barliman said:


> So far I haven't heard much I really like.





Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> *Ahem*
> Maybe you'll find some in the Music for ME thread.


'Course it's a pure coincidence that many of the posts there are from one S-eS ... 😝


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## m4r35n357 (Sep 14, 2021)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I'm no expert! But I didn't know the Dunlendings were into rockabilly. Though they might be greasers. 😂


Rockabilly? Punk mate!


Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> My first reaction was "way too much armor". Dunlendings were notoriously poor and ill-armed.


Stolen.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 14, 2021)

m4r35n357 said:


> Rockabilly? Punk mate!





m4r35n357 said:


> Stolen.


Exactly! 😁


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## Olorgando (Sep 19, 2021)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> David Day has been a cottage industry of Tolkien-related books for 40 years.


Not just JRRT-related. His lit of published titles runs to 44.
Including "The Quest for King Arthur" from 1995 as per the copyright information in my German translation (Wikipedia has the copyright year as 1996; that would be the copyright of the German translation as per my book ...).
He certainly makes a lot of valid points, especially about the transformation of the tale by each generation, suiting its details to their own situation. In our time, it tends to be a looking back to a mythological past. Merlin transformed into Gandalf and Obi-wan Kenobi (I have about a third of the book to go on this re-read).
But I caught Day on historical sloppiness: he states that the division of the Carolingian Empire among his grandsons was roughly equivalent to modern France, Germany, and Italy.

Nope.

While the western part is roughly equivalent to modern France (Pepin), and the eastern part roughly equivalent to modern Germany (Louis), the third part was pretty much a buffer state between the two, given to rule, oddly, by the *oldest* of these "legitimate" heirs of Louis the Pious (only surviving "legitimate" son of Charlemagne), Lothair. His name survives in the French region of Lorraine, German Lothringen, older German Lotharingen. That bit about Italy had earlier been settled by grand-dad, who had given it to one of his "illegitimate" sons (Charlemagne had about a handful of concubines, his only concession to morals of his time or later being that they appear to have bees serial, not parallel ...  )


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## Elthir (Sep 19, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> Not just JRRT-related. His lit of published titles runs to 44.



Yikes. Never realized that!

Possibly then, not a Day goes by when he isn't writing.

runs away


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## Olorgando (Sep 19, 2021)

Elthir said:


> Yikes. Never realized that!
> Possibly then, not a Day goes by when he isn't writing.
> runs away


Just remembered, and found, another detail that shows Day to not be a nit-picker obsessed with details as JRRT was:
In his reference to that George Lucas film, the Merlin (actually Gandalf, as per Lucas's own confession) clone is (mis-) spelled Obi-wan K*o*nobe - twice ...


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