# Why didn't the eagles fly the ring to Mt Doom?



## Confusticated (Sep 1, 2010)

The same reason God has not reached down and ridded the world at war of all its weapons.


What if someone does not believe in God? Fine, but there is one in Middle-earth.

I wonder if there is a connection between athiesm and the view that the failure of the eagles to do all the work is a plot hole or unexplainable?


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## Turgon (Sep 2, 2010)

Well my view on the eagle question always has been: The eagles didn't fly the ring to Mount Doom because they weren't meant to. Bilbo was meant to find the ring and pass it on to Frodo, and so on and so. I've never seen it as a plot hole or a particularly compelling arguement. Then again I'm not an athiest so I dunno. 

The discussion could be filed alongside 'Why didn't God kill Hitler?' and 'Pirate Ninja Angels? Fact or Fiction?' for me. Or on another level 'Why don't sheep mow my lawn?' and 'Are my cats too lazy to make me a cup of tea or do they just not like me?'

:*up


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## iasc (Sep 3, 2010)

Turgon said:


> Well my view on the eagle question always has been: The eagles didn't fly the ring to Mount Doom because they weren't meant to. Bilbo was meant to find the ring and pass it on to Frodo, and so on and so.


What do mean by meant to? Some divine plan by Manwe or something?

I remember something like this on here before (I think) and something about the eagles listening to Manwe who didn't want to interfere with Middle Earth


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## Turgon (Sep 3, 2010)

I'd actually go so far as to say Eru was responsible, as I do believe that Eru was working above and beyond Manwe, who was never a very effective servant of Eru, though a good spokesman. When it came to doing divine wet-work so to speak, I've always believed that was Ulmo's role, who always seemed to be the most effective of the Valar. Though I don't think Ulmo was involved in this case.


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## Bucky (Sep 7, 2010)

I wouldn't say Manwe was an uneffective servant of Eru....

It's kind of a catch-22 and Tolkien takes the biblical approach.

It's like Eru says to Melkor: 'You will see in the end that all thy works abound to my glory." (paraphrase.)

That's basically the same thing the God of the bible tells and does with
Satan, on who Tolkien definitely takes the Melkor/Eru story. 

So, is Manwe not under the same rules of omnipotence & sovreignty as Melkor?

Despite what he does & how he falls short of Eru's perfect will, doesn't Eru still work it all for good?

I would say that in Tolkien's eyes, as a believing Christian (or 'Catholic' if you prefer), that Tolkien created his universe with the same type of all powerful God.


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## Turgon (Sep 7, 2010)

To be fair Bucky I didn't call Manwe 'uneffective' but rather said that he was 'never very effective'.

The way I see it Manwe and Melkor are in opposition, Manwe is true to the original music, and Melkor opposes it. The reason I say Ulmo is a more effective instrument, is because to me he represents the changed music. He has seen first hand that even when Melkor corrupts, beauty can still be created, as when his water is turned to snow and ice. If Manwe cannot understand evil, how can he protect Arda from it? And in so much as what we read in the Silmarillion - he was never very effective. I can't really get my head around how this great power for good seems to do so very little. It's almost: _'All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.'_ Ulmo on the other hand seems to have a better understanding of what needs to be done, it's almost as if he is doing Eru's wet-work. Okay maybe not, but the play on words amused me.


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## Confusticated (Sep 7, 2010)

Turgon, you could be right about Ulmo. And remember his words to Tuor in UT?



> "But behold!" said he, "in the armour of Fate (as the Children of Earth name it) there is ever a rift, and in the walls of Doom a breach, until the full-making, which ye call the End. So it shall be while I endure, a secret voice that gainsayeth, and a light where darkness was decreed. Therefore, though in the days of this darkness I seem to oppose the will of my brethren, the Lords of the West, that is my part among them, to which I was appointed ere the making of the World.


 
Really supports what you've posted. I too have wondered how Manwe's ignorance of evil, while a necessity, is not viewed by some as... whats the word I'm looking for... as a... somewhat a cap on his abilities?


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## Turgon (Sep 7, 2010)

I didn't remember the quote Nom - but thanks for posting. I'm glad that there is at least some evidence for Ulmo in this role and it's not just something I've imagined. Of course I like Ulmo even more after reading that!


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## Bucky (Sep 7, 2010)

Turgon said:


> I'd actually go so far as to say Eru was responsible, as I do believe that Eru was working above and beyond Manwe, who was never a very effective servant of Eru, though a good spokesman. When it came to doing divine wet-work so to speak, I've always believed that was Ulmo's role, who always seemed to be the most effective of the Valar. Though I don't think Ulmo was involved in this case.



*Well was Manwe 'not very effective' in the long run?

Wasn't Morgoth defeated?

Certainly the Noldor suffered; And the Teleri to a lesser extent, but how much would all the Elven kindreds have suffered had the Valar had left them in Middle-earth after Utumno fell and Sauron was still out there with all those Balrogs and who knows what else lurking around.

These Elves would have been in a much poorer 'spiritually powerful state' to deal with evil.

And who was it that sent the Istari?
Manwe.....

How'd that work out?

Pretty well I'd say.

Gandalf completed his mission & Sauron fell.

So, Manwe could be said to have been pretty effective I guess as both Morgoth and Sauron were toast in the end. :*cool:*


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## Confusticated (Sep 7, 2010)

Bucky said:


> *Certainly the Noldor suffered; And the Teleri to a lesser extent, but how much would all the Elven kindreds have suffered had the Valar had left them in Middle-earth after Utumno fell and Sauron was still out there with all those Balrogs and who knows what else lurking around.*


 
But to say that Manwe served him well since Morgoth was ultimately defeated and so was Sauron 2 ages later? 

And how much would they have suffered if Manwe had kept Melkor in prison the first time? Or if the Valar would have taken action against Morgoth sooner rather than later! Teleri suffered to a lesser extent?! "Lesser extent" because the Green Elves of Ossiriand were never destroyed like the other elvish realms? And what about Dwarves and Men?

If Morgoth hadn't returned to Middle-earth then he would not have currupted the race of Men in their beginning. He was the cause of the Fall of Man. But it is okay if Dwarves, Men, Teleri, Sindar, all life in Middle-earth suffer because the Noldor needed to be taken down a notch for leaving their prison and seeking their own vengeance. Sure some of them were guilty in the kinslaying, but it may as well have been all of them, right? Did the Valar have no mercy for the Noldor, who had suffered greatly because of Morgoth? You talk about what Manwe did do, but there was plenty he did not do. 

He is supposd to love the Eldar? Then don't just let them walk away alone to Middle-earth! You go after them and tell them you will aid them against Morgoth, and aid them back to where you coaxed them from! The Eldar were like children to the Valar, and they should have been forgiven without a second thought when their only crime at that point was to what... to swear an oath and then head out after Morgoth? You help them! You don't just let them go alone against an impossible enemy if you really love them!


Yeah, it was very generous of him to allow the silmaril.... ooops I mean Earendil, into Valinor and listen to his prayers. What, you brought a bauble back? Okay, we'll help you then!

I don't think we can judge how effective a servant he was of Eru, because we (unlike Manwe) do not know the mind of Iluvatar.


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## Turgon (Sep 8, 2010)

I find myself in agreement with Nom. Manwe was cleaning up his own mess when it came to the events that followed Melkor's release, and I personally find it hard to praise him for overthrowing Melkor when he lets all of Beleriand burn before stirring himself. It's all very well to say that these thing will all be to the greater glory of Eru when there is untold suffering happening to the people of Middle-earth. It's small comfort to the man who loses his wife to torment at the hands of the orcs, and even less comfort to his wife. Even the mission of the Istari was something of a salvage job on the part of Gandalf, who is the one who should get the most credit for that job.



> _Originally posted by Nom._
> I don't think we can judge how effective a servant he was of Eru, because we (unlike Manwe) do not know the mind of Iluvatar.



That's a fair point actually...^^


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## Confusticated (Sep 8, 2010)

Turgon said:


> Even the mission of the Istari was something of a salvage job on the part of Gandalf, who is the one who should get the most credit for that job.


I almost mentioned that in my last post. That and how Iluvatar sent Gandalf back. Contrast that to Saruman being blown off into the east when he died... huge failure wasn't it.


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## Gothmog (Oct 14, 2010)

Nom said:


> The same reason God has not reached down and ridded the world at war of all its weapons.
> 
> 
> What if someone does not believe in God? Fine, but there is one in Middle-earth.
> ...


 There is probably a connection between some atheistic stances and this view but I doubt that it is exclusive to ‘non-believers’. Some Atheists believe in a set fate and some theists believe that god can be persuaded to change his mind.

The thing about having the eagles fly to Mount Doom and drop the ring in, is that it would be a different story and probably not of any great interest to read as it would only be about 10 pages long (including some unnecessary padding  ).
The story of “The Lord of the Rings” is about how the peoples of Middle-earth deal with the Ring of Sauron when they don’t have access to an Air-force able to do bombing runs on an active volcano.
The main reason that they cannot get the eagles to do this goes far back to before time was. The whole of the history of Arda was decided before there was any thought of Arda existing. The ‘Music of theAinur’ told the story from the first moment of creation to the last second of its existence. So, since none of the Ainur thought of having ‘Hobbit Airlines’ or the R.A.A.F. (Royal Arnorian Air Force) Flying to Mordor is a non-starter.

Of course, we do not know how faithful the adaption was from Music to Live-action. Perhaps the eagles were in the original song but Eru took them out to make a ‘better’ story


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## Prince of Cats (Oct 15, 2010)

Gothmog said:


> The main reason that they cannot get the eagles to do this goes far back to before time was. The whole of *the history of Arda was decided before there was any thought of Arda existing. The ‘Music of theAinur’ told the story from the first moment of creation to the last second of its existence*. So, since none of the Ainur thought of having ‘Hobbit Airlines’ or the R.A.A.F. (Royal Arnorian Air Force) Flying to Mordor is a non-starter.
> 
> Of course, we do not know how faithful the adaption was from Music to Live-action. Perhaps the eagles were in the original song but Eru took them out to make a ‘better’ story


 
This issue seems unclear to me. Was it only the fate of man _after_ death or was it his doings in middle earth too that is unknown? It's only been a month or two since I last read the Sil but some reading here recently has me a little confused. Are the doings of men already written? Well, written as in sung into the song.

Let's say, for fun, they aren't. Would the Hobbits', then? There's another route: the fate of hobbits  But now if the fate of the Hobbit was unwritten then feasibly in the infinity of possibility there _may_be _could_ have a "Hobbit Airlines?" Of course, Hobbit Airlines wouldn't dare risk flying paying passengers so close to an active volcano - it would ruin their third supper. I think, like you suggested, it would be a case for the Royal Arnorian Air Force (R.A.A.F., for short)

:*up


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## Gothmog (Oct 15, 2010)

Prince of Cats said:


> This issue seems unclear to me. Was it only the fate of man _after_ death or was it his doings in middle earth too that is unknown? It's only been a month or two since I last read the Sil but some reading here recently has me a little confused. Are the doings of men already written? Well, written as in sung into the song.


Actually, Men, and therefore possibly Hobbits, could go beyond the Music which is as fate for everything else in Arda. This includes the Ainur who went into Arda to become the Valar and the Maiar.



> Let's say, for fun, they aren't. Would the Hobbits', then? There's another route: the fate of hobbits  But now if the fate of the Hobbit was unwritten then feasibly in the infinity of possibility there _may_be _could_ have a "Hobbit Airlines?" Of course, Hobbit Airlines wouldn't dare risk flying paying passengers so close to an active volcano - it would ruin their third supper. I think, like you suggested, it would be a case for the Royal Arnorian Air Force (R.A.A.F., for short)
> 
> :*up


 
This is why I said that we do not know how faithful an adaption was made. (perhaps PJ is older than we think  )


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## Confusticated (Oct 15, 2010)

Gothmog said:


> Of course, we do not know how faithful the adaption was from Music to Live-action. Perhaps the eagles were in the original song but Eru took them out to make a ‘better’ story


 
I like this idea: The eagles weren't from the story at all, and were added later when unexpected great need had arisen, starting with Fingon's prayer to Manwe.

But regarding Athiesm - I thought that was a belief of _there is no God_. Is this incorrect?


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## Gothmog (Oct 15, 2010)

Nom said:


> But regarding Athiesm - I thought that was a belief of _there is no God_. Is this incorrect?


Atheism is indeed the belief that there is no God or gods. However, some still believe (or profess to do so) in Fate. We are all human after a fashion 

And Atheists come in a very wide variety of views. Much like theists.


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## Confusticated (Oct 15, 2010)

> Some Atheists believe in a set fate and some theists believe that god can be persuaded to change his mind.


 Not meaning to nit-pick but it says "god" there.:*D


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## Gothmog (Oct 15, 2010)

Nom said:


> Not meaning to nit-pick but it says "god" there.:*D


 
Atheists - Do not belive in God
Theists - Do believe in God.

Sorry. Spent too much time reading theological arguments. I tend to post how they argue there


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## childoferu (Dec 10, 2010)

just curious, can someone give an example of different variations of atheists


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## Alcuin (Dec 10, 2010)

From _Morgoth’s Ring_, “Myths Transformed”, VII, “Notes on motives in the Silmarillion”


> Sauron had not served Morgoth, even in his last stages, without becoming infected by his lust for destruction, and his hatred of God (which must end in nihilism). Sauron could not, of course, be a “sincere” atheist. Though one of the minor spirits created before the world, he knew Eru, according to his measure. …
> 
> Sauron was not a “sincere” atheist, but he preached atheism, because it weakened resistance to himself (and he had ceased to fear God’s action in Arda). … But there was … the effect of Melkor upon Sauron: he spoke of Melkor in Melkor’s own terms: as a god, or even as God. … His cunning motive is probably best expressed thus. To wean one of the God-fearing from their allegiance it is best to propound another unseen object of allegiance and another hope of benefits; propound to him a Lord who will sanction what he desires and not forbid it. …


Now *Gothmog*, I assume that since your old master Melkor Morgoth and your old colleague Sauron were not “‘sincere’ atheists,” you, in your beginnings a Maia or “minor spirit” like Sauron, are not a “‘sincere’ atheist” either, but rather _weaning the God-fearing from their allegiance by propounding another unseen object of allegiance and another hope of benefits; propounding to them a Lord who will sanction what they desire and not forbid it. _Is that correct? :*D


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## Mimzy (Feb 3, 2011)

Because Sauron's dragons would kill them?


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## Zalmoxis (Jan 9, 2012)

The Eagles could not have taken the ring to Mount Doom... The scenario is extremely unrealistic.

There are few problems here:

1. We do not know whether trough the caldera of the volcano would be a direct passage to the flow of lava. There existed only a special entrance to the insides of Mount Doom, a quite narrow one, and my opinion is that at least before the final eruption *only trough that entrance could one reach the inner lava chamber*. 

2. If they would have ever approached Mordor, the Evil Eye would had seen them, and would have sent all the flying beasts against them. They would have had no chance.


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## Bucky (Jan 12, 2012)

Why didn't the eagles fly the ring & drop it into Mt Doom?

Simple...

There'd be no story. :*eek:


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## Troll (Jan 24, 2012)

I always thought - and this may be silly of me - that the power of Sauron prevented the Eagles from entering Mordor. Yes, all the other reasons about divine providence and storytelling too, but I doubt the Eagles ever had the strength to directly contest the will of Sauron by themselves.

Zalmoxis also makes the excellent point that Sauron must have been preparing his Fell Beast aviaries for quite some time, given that he was able to re-saddle the Nazgul whenever the need arose. If the Eagles had attempted a flyby of Orodruin, the Nine would surely have opposed them. Who knows how that contest would end, but it only takes one sudden jolt for a wounded Eagle to drop a tiny Ringbearer...


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