# A Silmarillion Guide?



## Confusticated (Nov 5, 2002)

This is a proposition that a Silmarillion Guide be compiled by our guild.
The Guide (or FAQ) will be for those who have not read The Silmarillion and have questions about it.
I think there are 3 major points that we should address in this guide.

*What is The Silmarillion?*
This is self explanitory, we'll have to come up with a summary explaining the book's contents.
I think it would be good that we include the connections this book has with The Lord of The Rings. For example: it explains where Balrogs came from.
Doing this would give a person more reason to try reading the book.

*Should I read The Silmarillion?*
My idea is that we address this point with brief testemonials from both people who love the book, and those who think less of it. breif and to-the-point testimonials would be best, because they would keep the guide from looking too daunting. Though that is just my opinion.
The purpose of testemonies by those who found the book boring, too difficult, and whatnot, would be to ensure that we make it clear that the book is not something that everyone will love. We would not want to decieve the new readers by presently only the positive, or by giving the impression that all people who try to read this book love it.
We can then follow up with a summary that addresses the fact that not all people like this book.

*I'm having a hard time with the book*
This is where people will give tips and sugguestions that will make for easier reading.

Well this is just my idea for the guide. Ideas from all members of the forum are welcome, and if anyone finds error in my ideas let it be known.
The goal is, the way I see it, to make more people aware of what The Silmarillion really is, and to help them if they have trouble reading it.
I'm sure most of us have noticed that threads are constantly popping up asking the same questions about the book, so this could be an efficient way to prevent the duplication of threads and of our answers in the threads.
If this Silmarillion Guide seems a good idea to most of us, we will eventually use this thread to post answers to questions and comments that we would like to be included in the guide. We will then put The Guide together. I think it would also be a good idea that we start giving thought to how we will make this guide easily accessible to those who we would make it for.


Any thoughts?
Is this guide going to be helpful? Will it achieve it's purpose?


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## Nenya Evenstar (Nov 6, 2002)

I think that it's a wonderful idea! I don't have anything that I object to or can suggest other than what you've posted at the moment... so I'll just let my approval suffice. 

I especially like the part where you suggest we give testimonials of people who liked the Sil. and people who didn't - very good.

If I come up with any ideas I'll post them here right away.


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## Mithlond (Nov 6, 2002)

This sounds like a great idea Confust..err, Nom. 
It would certainly be helpful to the newer readers or ones that havent read the Silmarillion yet, eradicating alot of those common questions we find from time to time in the Sil forum with this handy little FAQ.


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## Walter (Nov 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Nóm _
> I'm sure most of us have noticed that threads are constantly popping up asking the same questions about the book, so this could be an efficient way to prevent the duplication of threads and of our answers in the threads.
> If this Silmarillion Guide seems a good idea to most of us, we will eventually use this thread to post answers to questions and comments that we would liee to be included in the guide. We will them put The Guide together. I think it owuld also be a good idea that we start giving thought to how we will make this guild easily accessible to those who we would make it for.
> 
> ...


Actually this redundancy of threads covering the same issue over and over again has caused me pondering a Tolkien-knowledgebase with a quality FAQ-section providing answers to many of those questions. As a result - due to a certain lack of impetus of a realization this knowledgebase on TTF within the near future, I finally decided to start it on my own. The current FAQ-section on the Tolkien-Wiki is still small, but hopefully it will someday represent as good as source of information as many of us have wished for.


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## Eol (Nov 6, 2002)

The guide sounds like a great idea....It would be really cool if you could include some genealogies starting right at the Beginning Of Days.


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## Confusticated (Nov 7, 2002)

I have a sugguestion:
We can go ahead and start working on "What is The Silmarillion?".
We could have various people post their answer here, and then pick one, and edit it as needed. We can come up with something that we all think hits the major points and is capable of serving it's purpses:rousing people's interest in this book/letting people knw what The Silmarillion is.

How is this?


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## Mithlond (Nov 7, 2002)

Start a thread and lets get to it.


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## Confusticated (Nov 7, 2002)

Well I was thinking that we could go ahead an use this thread to post everything in. Then after we've picked out what is to be included in the guide we would put that in it's own thread. If you or anyone else see's a reason that we should start a new thread now, then we can. I'm not against it, I just see no reason for it yet.


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## Elennainie (Nov 7, 2002)

Nóm, What would you like the final form of the guide to be? Will it just remain a thread here in the Guild of Tolkienology or will you make it a new section of FAQ's in the forum as a whole, or maybe even put it as a sticky thread in the Silmarillion? Just a thought -- how will new people know they are suppossed to look in the Sil. guide instead of just asking a Sil. question?


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## Confusticated (Nov 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Elennainie _
> *Nóm, What would you like the final form of the guide to be? Will it just remain a thread here in the Guild of Tolkienology or will you make it a new section of FAQ's in the forum as a whole, or maybe even put it as a sticky thread in the Silmarillion? Just a thought -- how will new people know they are suppossed to look in the Sil. guide instead of just asking a Sil. question? *


I envision the guide in the form of one, or perhaps two long post. Or maybe even three, one to address each of the things I mentioned above. But we still have flexiblity with this, we're just getting started, and I would like to know what others think. The actual format of the guide is something that we can figure out later though. Or change our minds about later on.
I think that once we have a lot of materiel to work with and are in the final stages of selecting/editting what will be included in this guide, will be the time to decide on the format. This because, each of those things might effect the other a bit.

As for the location of the guide: I thought of this awhile back as something that should be placed as a STICKY thread in the Silmarillion forum. However: we now a few sticky thread's in that forum, and I don't think they are as effective when there are too many of them. I could be dead wrong about this though! 
I think this is something that we can keep in mind for now, but we don't need anything final yet. This can be the last thing we decide about. I will definantly want to talk to Grond and Ancalagon about the location of the guide because they are moderators who deal with The Silmarillion area of the forum.


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## Elennainie (Nov 7, 2002)

> Should I read The Silmarillion?
> My idea is that we address this point with brief testemonials from both people who love the book, and those who think less of it. breif and to-the-point testimonials would be best, because they would keep the guide from looking too daunting.



I'd definitely be up for contributing a testimonial from the point of someone who loved the Silm.!  I'd especially like to talk about Ainulindale. I think the creation story would really appeal to people who aren't sure if they should read the Silm. Just let me know when you get to that part of your guide. THanks.


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## Confusticated (Nov 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Elennainie _
> *I'd definitely be up for contributing a testimonial from the point of someone who loved the Silm.!  I'd especially like to talk about Ainulindale. I think the creation story would really appeal to people who aren't sure if they should read the Silm. Just let me know when you get to that part of your guide. THanks.  *


I will let you when the time comes. 
When we start working on this portion of the guide "Should I read it?" we will have to publicize the guide a bit, to get testimonies from a range of people around the forum. I'll probably open a thread in member announcements and stick a link in my signature.

For now, _any forum member_ is welcomed to submit, in this thread, their answer to the question: "What is the Silmarillion?"


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## Elennainie (Nov 7, 2002)

I'll bow to my more eloquent forum members  to write a proper full response to "What is the Silmarillion", but I would like to suggest a few things to be included:

1. It was published posthumously. (important for people to know about the editing by Christopher Tolkien and that it wasn't in a final form by JRR Tolkien himself)

2. It is one of the most beautiful books ever written! (please can we say this?!!!!!) 

3. It contains the creation story and legends behind all that you read in LotR.


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## Confusticated (Nov 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Elennainie _
> *I'll bow to my more eloquent forum members  to write a proper full response to "What is the Silmarillion", but I would like to suggest a few things to be included:
> 
> 1. It was published posthumously. (important for people to know about the editing by Christopher Tolkien and that it wasn't in a final form by JRR Tolkien himself)
> ...


Excellent! How about if we say that many readers find it to be the most beautiful book ever written?
Also, we can say all that sorts of that stuff in the tesimonials. 
So, anyone else going to submit an answer to the question: "What is The Silmarillion?"


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## gate7ole (Nov 11, 2002)

What is the Silmarillion?

Besides the basic description of a book that contains the saga of the creation of Arda and the events of First Age (and a bit for Second Age), it should be useful to inform that:
the Silmarillion is NOT a novel, i.e a unique story given in a literary way. It contains a number of "episodes" of a history expanding to thousands of years, more or less independent in structure, but concerning the same individuals and places.
So, someone shouldn't expect much dialogue, analytic descriptions of battles, exhaustive background for every person involved.
Thus, I come to the great disadvantage of the book. It is too short. 350 pages are not enough to give a full account of a period of 600 years (plus the years before the Sun). Many battles are only referred, long peaceful periods are neglected, some points are left vague. Finishing the book, one may have colliding emotions. He/she will need more information, (little is given in UT) and inevitably will turn to imagining his/her own battles and events.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Nov 11, 2002)

Here's an idea:

What is the Silmarillion?

The Silmarillion is the epic History and Legends of Middle-earth which tells about the creation of the World, the waking of the Races, the First Ages of the World, and much, much more. In this book can be found the answers to many questions concerning the past of all races, questions about the leading powers, and questions about many names and places mentioned in The Lord of the Rings. Reading this book will dramatically increase your knowledge of J.R.R. Tolkien's Tale, and introduce you to ideas and things that you never before dreamed of.


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## Confusticated (Nov 17, 2002)

Just wanted to let everyone know that I am working on a description that takes into consideration everything you guys have sugguested. I'll post it here when I am done. It will not be complete by any stretch! I am not a good writer and my grammer is not perfect.
Anyhow, any all members are welcome to add sugguestions or an answer to the question "What is The Silmarillion?"
Once I've posted mine, and we've allowed time for others to post we can go to work editting and revising what we have so that we can move on to the next step: "Should I read the Silmarillion?"  Of course you should!


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## Confusticated (Nov 28, 2002)

After the death of J.R.R. Tolkien, his son Christopher put The Silmarillion together from writings that his father had worked on throughout his life.
The Sillmarillion quickly tells of the creation of the universe, with most attention to the creation of Middle-earth. It goes on to tell of the coming of the different people of Middle-earth, the amazing struggles that have taken place throughout history, and contains answers to many questions one might have after reading The Lord of The Rings because the events told here are the legends behind the Third age. The book contains many tales, though seperate, they are related and together give the story of the first age, wherein the people of Middle-earth fought against the relentless torment of Melkor who is Morgoth, the first Dark Lord of Middle-earth to whom Dragons, orcs, Balrogs, and even Sauron being shaped or currupted by him, were merely sevants. These tales mostly involve the Noldor, that is a race of elves who were doomed, and the Edain, the elf freinds who aided the Noldor in the battles against Morgoth. The individual tales that make up the story are often vague in places, and many battles will be summarized giving little detail. Rather than getting to know a small group of charactors very well and following them throughout the book, you will get know a lot of people, but you will not know them all well, and you will not find much dialog. The Silmarillion also contains the second age stories of the fall of Numenor, and of the making of the Rings of Power.

Suggestions? Additions? Anyone?


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## Elennainie (Nov 28, 2002)

Very nice, Nom!  I think this is a good summary/introduction to the Sil. Since you asked for suggestions, I just have one. I would end the summary on a brighter, more positive note. Where you say:


> Rather than getting to know a small group of charactors very well and following them throughout the book, you will get know a lot of people, but you will not know them all well, and you will not find much dialog.


 This is a good point, but it may seem negative, or unappealing to someone who is considering reading the Sil. for the first time, and I would move this sentence to the middle of the summary. How about reemphasizing what you said here:


> contains answers to many questions one might have after reading The Lord of The Rings


 at the end. That way, the last thing a person reading your summary will remember is something intriguing, which may arouse her curiosity.


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## Confusticated (Nov 28, 2002)

Great idea. I'll wait awhile for others to suggest things, and then either myself or someone else can put together a rough draft. We can then look _that_ over, and make any corrections/changes, then on to the next phase!


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## Confusticated (Dec 10, 2002)

*"What is The Silmarillion?"*

After the death of J.R.R. Tolkien, his son Christopher put The Silmarillion together from writings that his father had worked on throughout his life.
The Silmarillion quickly tells of the creation of the universe, with most attention to the creation of Middle-earth. It goes on to tell of the coming of the different people of Middle-earth, the amazing struggles that have taken place throughout history. Rather than getting to know a small group of charactors very well and following them throughout the book, you will get know a lot of people, but you will not know them all well, and you will not find much dialog. The book contains many tales, though seperate, they are related and together give the story of the first age, wherein the people of Middle-earth fought against the relentless torment of Melkor who is Morgoth, the first Dark Lord of Middle-earth to whom Dragons, orcs, Balrogs, and even Sauron being shaped or currupted by him, were merely sevants. These tales mostly involve the Noldor, that is a race of elves who were doomed, and the Edain, the elf freinds who aided the Noldor in the battles against Morgoth. The Silmarillion also contains the second age stories of the fall of Numenor, and of the making of the Rings of Power. The book contains answers to many questions one might have after reading The Lord of The Rings because the events told here are the legends behind the Third age. 

How is this? Anyone may add suggestions.
Walter has brought to my attention that the first sentence of this decription may be misleading. I agree with him. The description should indclude the fact that J.R.R. Tolkien wanted it to be published back in the 1930s (I will have to verify the date) and then again he tried to have it published with The Lord of the Rings as one long saga. So, the beginning of the description will be changed.

I think we can start on part 2 now: "Should I read The Silmarillion?"

I am going to PM a few people to get some different testimonials for the second part of the guide.

Everyone is welcomed to submit their personal opinion about the book, tell what you love about it, or what you dislike about it, anything you like to say about the book can be said here. Keep in mind the question this is ment to answer: "Should I read The Silmarillion".
Either PM it to me, or post it in the thread.


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## Froggum (Dec 10, 2002)

Awesome idea! I haven't read it yet, so I'm sure I'll find it very helpful!


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## gate7ole (Dec 10, 2002)

-Do you enjoy the Lord of the Rings as a fantasy novel or as a historic book of a mythical place?
-Are Elrond, Galadriel, Sauron only characters of the story for you, or do you feel their deep relation with the past?
-Should the Elvish-Dwarvish enmity, the Dúnedain of the North, the ancient port of Pelargir, the Balrog of Moria be left unexplained as mysterious aspects of a story or do you want to learn their meanings.
If all the previous questions are answered by the second option, then Silmarillion is the next book that you should read.
My personal experience with the tales of the First Age of Middle Earth cannot be put into words. The emotional impact from the reading of such tales of great deeds and sad fates was great. Recollecting these days when I first delved into the ancient days of ME, I can only envy those who will experience it for the first time.
Beleriand, the land of Elves, is waiting for you to explore through the magnificent pen of professor Tolkien.


PS. Nóm, I hope this helped


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## Elennainie (Dec 11, 2002)

Nom, Here's my testimonial.
****************************
For me, the Silmarillion is one of the most beautiful books ever written. It is a treasure of words, myths, legends, sorrows, and beauty.

I first came across the Silmarillion in a bookstore after I had read Lord of the Rings. It was a joy to find another book by Tolkien, since I had enjoyed LotR so much. I opened it up to the first chapter, read Ainulindalë, and was hooked! The elevated language, the beautiful creation story – imagine _singing_ a universe into being! The idea itself was beautiful enough, and add to that Tolkien’s gift with words...

To me, the Sil’s appeal is both aesthetic and emotional. Here are sorrows to wrench the heart and beauties to elevate the soul. Who can read of Túrin Turambar’s grievous slaying of his friend Beleg, without weeping. Or of Níniel, Tear-maiden, bewitched by Glaurung, who is doomed to love her own brother and conceive a child by him unaware, and who casts herself into Cabed-en-Aras in despair. Who does not cry out in anguish at the kinslaying at Alqualondë, or at the poisoning of the Two Trees of Valinor. All are brought to desolation through the lies and evil malice of Morgoth, more terrible than even Sauron, his servant.

Yet here also are joys, written in exceedingly fair words, that quench a soul’s desire for beauty: 

Beren coming upon Lúthien dancing 
“at a time of evening under moonrise, as she danced upon the unfading grass in the glades beside Esgalduin. Then all memory of his pain departed from him, and he fell into an enchantment; for Lúthien was the most beautiful of all the Children of Ilúvatar. Blue was her raiment as the unclouded heaven, but her eyes were grey as the starlit evening; her mantle was sewn with golden flowers, but her hair was dark as the shadows of twilight. As the light upon the leaves of the trees, as the voice of clear waters, as the stars above the mists of the worlds, such was her glory and her loveliness; and in her face was a shining light.”,

The awakening of the Firstborn
“by the starlit mere of Cuiviénen, Water of Awakening, they rose from the sleep of Ilúvatar; and while they dwelt yet silent by Cuiviénen their eyes beheld first of all things the stars of heaven.”,

Varda Elentári kindling the stars
“Then Varda went forth from the council, and she looked out from the height of Taniquetil, and beheld the darkness of Middle-earth beneath the innumerable stars, faint and far. Then she began a great labour, greatest of all the works of the Valar since their coming into Arda. She took the silver dews from the vats of Telperion, and therewith she made new stars and brighter against the coming of the Firstborn; wherfore she whose name out of the deeps of time and the labours of Eä was Tintallë, the Kindler...”

and Yavanna Kemetári calling forth the Two Trees of Valinor with her song
“And as they watched, upon the mound there came forth two slender shoots; and silence was over all the world in that hour, nor was there any other sound save the chanting of Yavanna. Under her song the saplings grew and became fair and tall, and came to flower; and thus there awoke in the world the Two Trees of Valinor. Of all things which Yavanna made they have most renown, and about their fate all the tales of the Eldar days are woven.”

As for subject matter, the Silmarillion is wonderful in this respect as well. There is mythology: the creation story, the descriptions of the Valar and their powers, how the features of the earth, such as the sun and the moon, were formed, etc. There are legends: Beren and Lúthien’s Quest for the Silmaril, the Voyage of Eärendil to implore the Valar’s aid against Morgoth. And there are fierce battles and tales of valiant deeds, such as Húrin standing alone against the fury of the orcs and of Gothmog. And lastly, there is history, to satisfy a LotR lover’s desire for more, more, more! about what came before the events in Middle-earth.

My admiration and love for this book are of the highest order. I have been moved by its sorrows and its beauties, and I return to it again and again. I will always be grateful to Tolkien for creating this gift.


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## Confusticated (Dec 11, 2002)

gate7ole, and Elennainie, I think your statements are exellent. 
Elennainie, very moving though I wonder if the bit about Turin and Beleg might be a little too much information? Elennainie, this is entirely up to you but I thought I would point it out. 
Had I read either of those two statements after reaing The Lord of the Rings I would not have waited 6 months to read The Silmarillion.


Here's a gem of a different color, but the author wishes that I not give his name:
"To be frank with you I'm not a big fan of the Sil. It's a great read, and as a companion to LotR it's really facinating, but sometimes it feels like it is bogging down. One thing I love about LotR is it's sense of movement. The narrative is always moving, and there is always some journey. The Sil often feels like a collection of somewhat obscure tales that don't seem to have any particular context. It's still better then 99% of the books out there, simply because of Tolkiens masterful prose. But I miss a lot of the smaller, "day-to-day" details that make LotR really memorable. The Sil feels much more like a "scholarly" work."

What do you guys think? Any objections to including a statement by someone who doesn't want his name on it?

Again, everyone who is reading this is welcomed to contribute in any way.


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## Elennainie (Dec 11, 2002)

> What do you guys think? Any objections to including a statement by someone who doesn't want his name on it?


 I don't have any objection. I think it is fair to represent both sides.



> I wonder if the bit about Turin and Beleg might be a little too much information? Elennainie, this is entirely up to you but I thought I would point it out.


 Well, I wanted to include specific examples of things that were moving. I don't think this is giving too much away about the plot of the book, since, despite it's great emotional impact, it is a very small incident plot-wise.


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## gate7ole (Dec 11, 2002)

Nóm, I think that this "nameless" statement is very interesting and is important to add it. It would be rather naive to start writing everything good we think of Silmarillion and don't provide any less enthusiastic point.

But I'm curious who is this person who has a negative comment about Silmarillion .


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## Confusticated (Dec 11, 2002)

Yes, we must have negative comments but I was wondering if the fact that they refuse to put their name on it means that we sould for some reason not include it. I do think we should include it simply because I don't expect we will see much (if any) more like it. Hopefully we will get a couple more though.


> But I'm curious who is this person who has a negative comment about Silmarillion .


Well, I can't say!  
I wouldn't want our nameless contibutor to be hounded by people because they disagree with his *shudders* valid opinion.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Dec 22, 2002)

However, he should name himself - that is if he wants to stand up for his opinion. 

I do not have much more to add to the wonderful passages given by gate7 and Elen, but I would like to see something in conjunction with gate7's ideas. He highlighted many of the things in LOTR which are answered only by reading "The Sil." I would simply add that we should include a reference to the constant referrings to the West which take place in LOTR. That in itself is a vital part of LOTR to me.


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## Confusticated (Dec 22, 2002)

Sounds good to me. You can add it to the summary yourself if you'd like. If it hasn't been added within a couple days I'll add it myself.

I'm surpised that our mystery writer didn't want his name on that statement too. 
Unfortunatly such statements are probably not easy to come by so this is a gem.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Dec 22, 2002)

> Should the Elvish-Dwarvish enmity, the Dúnedain of the North, the ancient port of Pelargir, the Balrog of Moria be left unexplained as mysterious aspects of a story or do you want to learn their meanings.


I would simply add in this part: the frequent referrences to the West....


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## Confusticated (Dec 22, 2002)

Ah... I misunderstood. I thought you wanted that added to the book description, not gate7ole's statement. I would not have suggested you add to gate7ole's personal statement.

Sorry about that, gate7ole.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Dec 22, 2002)

Gosh! All I care about is that it gets put in there somewhere - I misunderstood you too then. Isn't gate7ole's statement going in the finished product? That's why I requested it in there.... Anyway, I just think it needs to go in the finished product - whatever that is!


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## Confusticated (Dec 22, 2002)

Well if gate7ole doesn't want to put it into his statement then I'll stick it in the book description, or you can stick it into the description wherever you see fit. Yeah, his statement is going into the finished product.


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## Melian (Dec 25, 2002)

I don't want to interrupt your creative ideas,but I have a question:
Nym,when are you going to start making up the other points of the guide you suggested in the beginning--e.g."Should I read...";so that I can get involved in the creating too?

And,btw,I have read some very very good posts in this thread concerning "What is the Sil"!Keep on the good work,and,oh,Merry Christmas!


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## Confusticated (Dec 27, 2002)

Posted by me a couple weeks ago:


> I think we can start on part 2 now: "Should I read The Silmarillion?"
> 
> I am going to PM a few people to get some different testimonials for the second part of the guide.
> 
> ...


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## Melian (Dec 28, 2002)

Thanks!
Then,I believe,I should start to think of a proper contribution to the point.


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## FoolOfATook (Jan 4, 2003)

I hate to see this thread cool down, so I (in the "do something that you think will be interesting before you think about what you are doing and how others will respond" manner that seems to be a defining Tookish characteristic) figured that some of us could start on the third section of the guide- tips and suggestions for reading _The Silmarillion_ 

1. Always remember that this work is a history, and NOT a novel. Names, places, events, etc. tend to appear quite often, and it's very easy to get as lost as Thorin and company in Mirkwood. Attempting to skim the book is a very bad idea. Instead, read at a relatively slow pace (a difficult task for a semi-speed reader such as myself) and whenever you come across a word (usually names) that you are unsure about, take the time to look it up in the wonderful index that Christopher Tolkien provides. 

2. Something that I've heard of several people doing, and that I have done to some extent myself, is taking notes as you read. This doesn't mean the kind of notes that you'd make for a test in school, but rather important names that you want to keep straight or remember. Perhaps you might make a chart or a list of the Valar, or your own "tree" to keep the various branches of Elves straight, or a list of "alternate" names. (Tolkien often gives us names in words in multiple languages, and this might be a good way to keep them straight until you've become fluent in Quenya yourself ) 

3. In one of the volumes of _The History Of The Lord Of The Rings_, Christopher Tolkien explains that his father worked on the manuscript of _The Lord Of The Rings_ in "waves", constantly going back a few chapters and rewriting. This is a technique that I've used somewhat with _The Silmarillion_ and I've found that it works well, especially with remembering exactly which Elf is the son of another Elf, or which Vala did what. I think this technique works because the history in the book is ***ulative, each chapter building on the chapters before it.

4. Don't forget that you can always ask your brothers and sisters of the forum about anything that you just don't understand, or are having a hard time with. Most of us are quite friendly, and love to help others learn about the works of our beloved Tolkien.

If my fellow guildsmen and women who have already begun this guide think that I'm onto something, I'd be happy to work on this some more, and if they think that I'm out of my mind and don't see a single word that's usable, I quite understand (I've had more than a little experience in editing, so I know exactly what it feels like when one is presented with something that has no place whatsoever in the project at hand). Essentially, what I'm saying is that I don't have my ego tied up in the above piece, so the more empathetic of you don't have to worry about hurting my feelings. 

Hoping that this breathes some new life into this most admirable project, I remain


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## Confusticated (Jan 4, 2003)

Those sound great to me. I see no probem with people submitting things for the third portion of the guide. I know that I for one will have time to go through this entire thread to gather and organize everyone's submissions so I think we can work on two things at once with no problem. I think we could use a few more statements for the second portion though, so I hope we'll get a few more submissions here. If we don't have enough within the next couple weeks, I'll ask a few people in specific if they would do this. 

Remember, nothing is final yet and suggestions about any aspect of the guide are welcome.

Also, we still need ideas about how to place this guide where people who aren't even looking for it can find it.

I have the idea that we could put it in The Silmarillion forum, and keep it on the front page.

I was also thinking that we might include a few links to helpful websites... Thorough encyclopedias, family trees, or map sites.

I don't think the guide could ever be called complete... just thorough and organized enough to post. So, those who post the actual guide might want to be willing to take a request to edit the post later on, such as adding a new statement or a new sugguestion for those having trouble with the book.

...thoughts?


My next post will be a sample of how I imagine the guide might look. Sugguestions for this are welcomed too.


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## Confusticated (Jan 4, 2003)

*What is The Silmarillion?  *


After the death of J.R.R. Tolkien, his son Christopher put The Silmarillion together from writings that his father had worked on throughout his life.
The Silmarillion quickly tells of the creation of the universe, with most attention to the creation of Middle-earth. It goes on to tell of the coming of the different people of Middle-earth, the amazing struggles that have taken place throughout history. Rather than getting to know a small group of charactors very well and following them throughout the book, you will get know a lot of people, but you will not know them all well, and you will not find much dialog. The book contains many tales, though seperate, they are related and together give the story of the first age, wherein the people of Middle-earth fought against the relentless torment of Melkor who is Morgoth, the first Dark Lord of Middle-earth to whom Dragons, orcs, Balrogs, and even Sauron being shaped or currupted by him, were merely sevants. These tales mostly involve the Noldor, that is a race of elves who were doomed, and the Edain, the elf freinds who aided the Noldor in the battles against Morgoth. The Silmarillion also contains the second age stories of the fall of Numenor, and of the making of the Rings of Power. The book contains answers to many questions one might have after reading The Lord of The Rings because the events told here are the legends behind the Third age. 

*Should I read The Silmarillion?  *

Here's what some of the forum members say about the book:

-Do you enjoy the Lord of the Rings as a fantasy novel or as a historic book of a mythical place?
-Are Elrond, Galadriel, Sauron only characters of the story for you, or do you feel their deep relation with the past?
-Should the Elvish-Dwarvish enmity, the Dúnedain of the North, the ancient port of Pelargir, the Balrog of Moria be left unexplained as mysterious aspects of a story or do you want to learn their meanings.
If all the previous questions are answered by the second option, then Silmarillion is the next book that you should read.
My personal experience with the tales of the First Age of Middle Earth cannot be put into words. The emotional impact from the reading of such tales of great deeds and sad fates was great. Recollecting these days when I first delved into the ancient days of ME, I can only envy those who will experience it for the first time.
Beleriand, the land of Elves, is waiting for you to explore through the magnificent pen of professor Tolkien. - _gate7ole_


To be frank with you I'm not a big fan of the Sil. It's a great read, and as a companion to LotR it's really facinating, but sometimes it feels like it is bogging down. One thing I love about LotR is it's sense of movement. The narrative is always moving, and there is always some journey. The Sil often feels like a collection of somewhat obscure tales that don't seem to have any particular context. It's still better then 99% of the books out there, simply because of Tolkiens masterful prose. But I miss a lot of the smaller, "day-to-day" details that make LotR really memorable. The Sil feels much more like a "scholarly" work.- _anonymous_


For me, the Silmarillion is one of the most beautiful books ever written. It is a treasure of words, myths, legends, sorrows, and beauty.

I first came across the Silmarillion in a bookstore after I had read Lord of the Rings. It was a joy to find another book by Tolkien, since I had enjoyed LotR so much. I opened it up to the first chapter, read Ainulindalë, and was hooked! The elevated language, the beautiful creation story – imagine singing a universe into being! The idea itself was beautiful enough, and add to that Tolkien’s gift with words...

To me, the Sil’s appeal is both aesthetic and emotional. Here are sorrows to wrench the heart and beauties to elevate the soul. Who can read of Túrin Turambar’s grievous slaying of his friend Beleg, without weeping. Or of Níniel, Tear-maiden, bewitched by Glaurung, who is doomed to love her own brother and conceive a child by him unaware, and who casts herself into Cabed-en-Aras in despair. Who does not cry out in anguish at the kinslaying at Alqualondë, or at the poisoning of the Two Trees of Valinor. All are brought to desolation through the lies and evil malice of Morgoth, more terrible than even Sauron, his servant.

Yet here also are joys, written in exceedingly fair words, that quench a soul’s desire for beauty: 

Beren coming upon Lúthien dancing 
“at a time of evening under moonrise, as she danced upon the unfading grass in the glades beside Esgalduin. Then all memory of his pain departed from him, and he fell into an enchantment; for Lúthien was the most beautiful of all the Children of Ilúvatar. Blue was her raiment as the unclouded heaven, but her eyes were grey as the starlit evening; her mantle was sewn with golden flowers, but her hair was dark as the shadows of twilight. As the light upon the leaves of the trees, as the voice of clear waters, as the stars above the mists of the worlds, such was her glory and her loveliness; and in her face was a shining light.”,

The awakening of the Firstborn
“by the starlit mere of Cuiviénen, Water of Awakening, they rose from the sleep of Ilúvatar; and while they dwelt yet silent by Cuiviénen their eyes beheld first of all things the stars of heaven.”,

Varda Elentári kindling the stars
“Then Varda went forth from the council, and she looked out from the height of Taniquetil, and beheld the darkness of Middle-earth beneath the innumerable stars, faint and far. Then she began a great labour, greatest of all the works of the Valar since their coming into Arda. She took the silver dews from the vats of Telperion, and therewith she made new stars and brighter against the coming of the Firstborn; wherfore she whose name out of the deeps of time and the labours of Eä was Tintallë, the Kindler...”

and Yavanna Kemetári calling forth the Two Trees of Valinor with her song
“And as they watched, upon the mound there came forth two slender shoots; and silence was over all the world in that hour, nor was there any other sound save the chanting of Yavanna. Under her song the saplings grew and became fair and tall, and came to flower; and thus there awoke in the world the Two Trees of Valinor. Of all things which Yavanna made they have most renown, and about their fate all the tales of the Eldar days are woven.”

As for subject matter, the Silmarillion is wonderful in this respect as well. There is mythology: the creation story, the descriptions of the Valar and their powers, how the features of the earth, such as the sun and the moon, were formed, etc. There are legends: Beren and Lúthien’s Quest for the Silmaril, the Voyage of Eärendil to implore the Valar’s aid against Morgoth. And there are fierce battles and tales of valiant deeds, such as Húrin standing alone against the fury of the orcs and of Gothmog. And lastly, there is history, to satisfy a LotR lover’s desire for more, more, more! about what came before the events in Middle-earth.

My admiration and love for this book are of the highest order. I have been moved by its sorrows and its beauties, and I return to it again and again. I will always be grateful to Tolkien for creating this gift._- Elennainie_



These are most amazing tales I ever read, and they all belong to the same world. Anyone who loves Middle-earth can't go wrong by reading this book. - _Nóm
_


*Sugguestions for easier reading:  *

* Always remember that this work is a history, and NOT a novel. Names, places, events, etc. tend to appear quite often, and it's very easy to get as lost as Thorin and company in Mirkwood. Attempting to skim the book is a very bad idea. Instead, read at a relatively slow pace (a difficult task for a semi-speed reader such as myself) and whenever you come across a word (usually names) that you are unsure about, take the time to look it up in the wonderful index that Christopher Tolkien provides. 

* Something that I've heard of several people doing, and that I have done to some extent myself, is taking notes as you read. This doesn't mean the kind of notes that you'd make for a test in school, but rather important names that you want to keep straight or remember. Perhaps you might make a chart or a list of the Valar, or your own "tree" to keep the various branches of Elves straight, or a list of "alternate" names. (Tolkien often gives us names in words in multiple languages, and this might be a good way to keep them straight until you've become fluent in Quenya yourself ) 

* In one of the volumes of The History Of The Lord Of The Rings, Christopher Tolkien explains that his father worked on the manuscript of The Lord Of The Rings in "waves", constantly going back a few chapters and rewriting. This is a technique that I've used somewhat with The Silmarillion and I've found that it works well, especially with remembering exactly which Elf is the son of another Elf, or which Vala did what. I think this technique works because the history in the book is ***ulative, each chapter building on the chapters before it.

* Don't forget that you can always ask your brothers and sisters of the forum about anything that you just don't understand, or are having a hard time with. Most of us are quite friendly, and love to help others learn about the works of our beloved Tolkien.


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## Elennainie (Jan 10, 2003)

> Elennainie, very moving though I wonder if the bit about Turin and Beleg might be a little too much information? Elennainie, this is entirely up to you but I thought I would point it out.


Nom, I have given more thought to this and have changed my mind. I think it would be better to take out the word "Beleg" so that sentence of my testimonial would read "Who can read of Túrin Turambar’s grievous slaying of his friend, without weeping."

FoolOfATook, great contributions on the hints for reading.



> Also, we still need ideas about how to place this guide where people who aren't even looking for it can find it.


I think this is a big issue for a newbie, who doesn't know how to navigate the forum yet. Why don't we put it in the Silmarillion section with a very obvious title such as "Thinking About Reading the Silmarillion? - A Beginner's Guide" or "Want to Read the Silmarillion? Start Here First".

I like the content we have so far, for the Guide, but, even with the nice colors, larger fonts, etc. formatting, I don't think that it is visually pleasing or easy to read. The sections aren't distinct enough, imo. I know we are constrained by the forum's online format, but just an idea, how about making it a graphic file, with a few pictures or bullets, or nicer formating? I'll be glad to try making it into a graphic file on Publisher, looking like a scroll, with a few simple pictures, if anyone else is interested in this idea. I love to do that sort of thing. I think I can save from Publisher as a bmp or jpeg. 

Editing quickies: In "What is the Sil?": "charactors" should be "characters", "seperate" should be "separate", & "sevants" should be "servants". Also, "Sugguestions for Easier Reading" change to "Suggestions".


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## Confusticated (Jan 10, 2003)

Hmm, that would be nice. The only problem I see with it is that it would not be as easy to make changes or additions at a later point. If we are confident with the finished product that shouldn't be a problem though.

I think a bmp file would be too big to attach here, but a jpg might work, and if not then a png might... they are smaller than jpg.

In the event that a png is too large...
I had thought before about putting the guide up at another website (for reasons of making it look nice), but decided against this (for editting reasons). But if we are going to have this guide in the form of anything other than a post, it might be something to keep in mind.

So, if we want it as a graphic, then Elennainie you can go ahead and work on a sample graphic or however you want to do it. If you want any contribution from me, I'm willing, I love graphics too.


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## Elennainie (Jan 11, 2003)

I'm not sure what's best still (due to editing concerns), but I'll make a quick mock-up and email it to you. If you have one or two good Sil. graphics you'd like to see in it, feel free to email them to me. Send me a PM if you don't have my email address anymore.

What did you think about the thread title and placement ideas?


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## Finduilas (Jan 17, 2003)

Here is something I wrote which would probably answer in a way the question(it is not the best I've written but I don't have time to edit it properly) :

Riding throughmy soul,
living in my dreams,not caring for the sorrow
you gave to me.
Burning,thinking,loving,
all because of you,
helpless even crowling
for love,for happiness and truth!
The love I find on pages,
on leaves,on trees,on clouds
but the truth will last for ages,
for long in all your hearts.
The happiness I find in rivers,
in lakes and ancient trees,
but the truth will bring the silver,
that I will give to thee!

The main point is that the Sill can be concerned as a teacher and friend as well,of course,if you know how to read through his pages.


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## FoolOfATook (Jan 17, 2003)

Just out of curiosity, did you write the poem in English, or did you translate it? Either way, I think it's pretty good, especially if you haven't had the time or the chance to edit it and play with it.


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## Finduilas (Jan 17, 2003)

> Just out of curiosity, did you write the poem in English, or did you translate it? Either way, I think it's pretty good, especially if you haven't had the time or the chance to edit it and play with it.



 I got your point.
You know what,I will post it again when I edit it,ok?


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## Elennainie (Jan 21, 2003)

The graphics of the scroll pages are almost ready. I just corrected the spelling of a few words, took out "Beleg" on my testimonial, and changed FoolOfATook's ***ulative to "speculative". FoolOfATook, let me know if that's not ok. Also, Nom, I added the part about Tolkien wanting to have it published, as you requested. Finally, I added Finduilas' poem in the testimonial section. Right now it's eight pages, or eight separate images.


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## FoolOfATook (Jan 21, 2003)

Speculative isn't the right word for c-u-mulative. (I'm assuming that we're changing the word to suit the idiosyncrasies of the profanity filter, and not out of a problem with the word, per se). . 

The sentence is:
I think this technique works because the history in the book is ***ulative, each chapter building on the chapters before it.

How about we replace it with:
I think that this technique works because of the way that the history is structured, every chapter builds on the chapters that came before it.

Something to that effect. Now that I've re-read what I wrote, I'm having a hard time resisting the urge to really delve into re-writing- a particular form of perfectionism that I share with our beloved Tolkien. In the early Sixties, his publisher, Rayner Unwin, was barely able to prevent Tolkien from re-writing *ALL* of _The Hobbit_, and not just the chapter "Riddles In The Dark".  I'm glad that you liked the little piece I wrote. Let me know if there's anything else I can do to help- writing and editing are the closest I've come in my life to having "careers" (Writing for N.C. State's newspaper and editing my high school's newspaper are the only jobs I've ever had that I considered to be more than just paychecks, even though I never got a dime for the highschool paper.)

Knowing that Nom is going to find some hideous mistake in the above post, and burst my little bubble,


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## Confusticated (Jan 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by FoolOfATook _
> *Knowing that Nom is going to find some hideous mistake in the above post, and burst my little bubble,  *






> _Originally posted by FoolOfATook _
> *Speculative isn't the right word for c-u-mulative. (I'm assuming that we're changing the word to suit the idiosyncrasies of the profanity filter, and not out of a problem with the word, per se)*



Since Elennainie is making graphic files, the C-word would not be editted by the forum's software. I do not know why she has replaced the word.

As for the thread placement, I don't think it would fit anywhere other than the Silmarillion forum. 

Elennainie, the title you give is as good as any I've heard or thought of. It should give people the right idea.


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## Walter (Jan 22, 2003)

Pardon me folks: why don't you publish the results over at the TolkienWiki? Working on something as a team would be much easier since everyone could make changes and the result won't "disappear" in time (like it does on any BBS).


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## Confusticated (Jan 22, 2003)

That sounds good to me. One at the forum and another at the Wiki.
By the way Walter, would you care to give a statement about _The Silmarillion_, that would benefit someone who is asking if they should read the book?


I forgot to mention in my previous post:
I am looking through some threads tonight to find more suggestions for those who are having trouble reading the book or who are unsure how to aproach it.


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## Walter (Jan 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Nóm _
> By the way Walter, would you care to give a statement about _The Silmarillion_, that would benefit someone who is asking if they should read the book?


Anyone who has enjoyed reading _The Lord of the Rings_ and/or is interested either in Tolkien's writings or mythology in general, should definitely read _The Silmarillion_. It is a piece of - fictive, though - mythology that IMO stands comparison with other major european mythologies like the Eddas, Kalevala, Illias & Odyssee, etc..

Though I find myself wondering every so often what _The Silmarillion_ would read like if Tolkien himself had been able to publish it lateron in his life. 

Hence, I would like to encourage everyone having read _The Silmarillion_ and liked it and/or still interested either in Tolkien's writings or mythology in general to read the UT and the HoMe series as well...


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## FoolOfATook (Jan 22, 2003)

> Since Elennainie is making graphic files, the C-word would not be editted by the forum's software. I do not know why she has replaced the word.



Good, I liked the original sentence better than the replacement I came up with. 

Also, Nom- is there a working draft somewhere? I wouldn't mind taking a look at it and seeing if there's something's that's blatantly missing, or something that could be improved. Plus, I want to go through my part with a fine-tooth comb- I wrote it in one sitting, and I really don't like publishing something that I haven't edited. Another thing- since the text has been prepared by numerous authors, I imagine that there are probably style conflicts (attributions, punctuation and capitalization preferences, etc) and I could work on establishing a set style for the document. 

I hope it doesn't sound like I'm trying to hijack the project- I'm really not- it's just that when it comes to editing, writing and publishing, I'm really in my element, and I tend to get enthusiastic. (I know, I know- I get enthusiastic about grammar and usage- I never claimed to be anything other than a nerd ) Anyway, anything I can do to help, I am at milady's service.


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## Confusticated (Jan 22, 2003)

We now have two versions to put together. The graphic version to be posted at TTF will be made final by Elennainie.

The text version that will go to the Wiki site will never be made final, since people can edit it after it has been posted at the Wiki.

FoolOfATook, I am glad you're offering to edit. Anything you'd like to change in the graphic TTF version will have to be discussed with Elennainie, and you would have to get her version since she has made alterations to the rough draft that I posted on the previous page. Maybe Elennainie will post the text of her version in this thread?
Here is the last draft that I posted. You can make changes to it for the Wiki version without having to go through Elennainie. You can also add Finduilas's and Walter's statement to it. Unfortunately you can't just edit my post, so you'll have to quote it. Or, just type the whole thing out .
If you want the Wiki version to include revisions made to the Graphic TTF version by Elennainie, you'll have to work with her a bit, or work from her post (assuming she'll post the text of her graphic version).
The summary and the tips section can be changed by anyone, but please don't change another persons statement without their permission.

Also, just a reminder - we'll be getting a few more statements and tips.

For anyone who hasn't been able to keep track of this thread here is the outline as it stands now:

First section - What is The Silmarillion? Here goes our summary.

Second section - Should I read The Silmarillion? Here goes our individual statements, but people can also work together to form a statement as a team if they wish. Just keep in mind the question the statements are ment to answer.

Third Section - This is were we give advise and tips for people who are reading the book for their first time, or who might have trouble reading it or are unsure about how to approach the book.

Elennainie is in charge of making final the TTF graphic, so changes and additions must go through her.

Wiki text version is in all of our hands, including FoolOfATook's for editting .


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## FoolOfATook (Jan 22, 2003)

Okay, now on to some boring but important matters. I'd like to ask each of the contributing writers, including those who have submitted statements or quotes, how much they trust me in editing- by this I mean, do you trust me with your text completely, would you like me to discuss any potential changes with you before they are made, or would you rather I simply kept my hands off of your writing. I understand completely if you would prefer that I not touch your work- after all, you only have the 200 or so posts that I've made to judge my compentcy by. In hopes of establishing my credentials, so to speak, I'll just lay out a brief history of my experience in writing and editing.

First off, I'm twenty years old, and I'm in my third year of studying English Language and Literature at North Carolina State University, in Raleigh, NC. I first became involved in writing in my freshman year of high school, when I began working as a newswriter for _The Prowl_, Fuquay-Varina High School's student newspaper. I continued as a staff writer throughout my four years of high school, writing film criticism, editorials and a regular humour piece as well as news stories. I became news editor in my junior year of high school, and editor-in-chief my senoir year. For my writing during high school, I was twice recognized by the North Carolina Press Club, winning Second Place and an honorable mention for my film criticisms in their annual High School Journalism contest. In my junior year I also won an essay contest sponsored by the North Carolina United Nations Association, and the following year I delivered my essay as a speech before their annual banquet. In my freshman year of college I wrote news stories for _The Technician_, NCSU's student newspaper. I consider my language skills to be excellent, and I scored a 790 in the verbal portion of the SATs.

My point here is not to attempt to show off, but simply to try and calm any fears that anyone might have about my editing of their work. It'd be awesome if people who contributed to the Guide either posted a brief message here or sent me a PM, telling me what degree of freedom I have with their work. I will not violate any writer's moral rights by changing a single word of theirs without their consent.


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## Walter (Jan 22, 2003)

FoolOfaTook - hmmm I'd rather call you Pippin, somehow  - as for the Wiki version this should not be a problem. If someone actually dislikes your editing s/he can simply undo it at the Wiki.


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## Elennainie (Jan 22, 2003)

> Speculative isn't the right word for c-u-mulative. (I'm assuming that we're changing the word to suit the idiosyncrasies of the profanity filter, and not out of a problem with the word, per se). .


 I edited the word b/c I thought it was a typ-o. I will be glad to change "speculative" to "cumulative" in the graphic file. Do I have that correct, i.e. that you don't want the new sentence you made to replace the other? I will also add Walter's submission as a new page. Walter, would you like the whole post included, or only the paragraph written in the larger font?



> Also, Nom- is there a working draft somewhere? I wouldn't mind taking a look at it and seeing if there's something's that's blatantly missing, or something that could be improved.


 I only wish this had been discussed before I spent 2 hours last night getting the final graphics ready!  They are all ready, except I am waiting for Nom to respond to my email about whether the files can be shrunk to fit on the forum. I'm not good at doing that. At their present file size, I cannot upload them to TTF. IMO, I think we should just leave people's contributions as they submitted them. We are all responsible for our own submissions. At least, I would not care to have mine edited. Thank you for the offer. Since the graphic files are already done, why don't we take Walter up on his kind offer to have a Sil. guide at Wiki. That way, we can post the graphic files in their current state here on TTF, and if the rest decide they want FoolOfATook to edit theirs, it can be an ongoing project at the Wiki site.


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## Elennainie (Jan 22, 2003)

The only changes to Nom's rough draft are spelling corrections, and the addition of one sentence about Tolkien wanting to get the Sil. published, that Nom asked me to include, in the "What is the Silmarillion" part. I did not alter anyone's text and would not do so without their permission. Thus, it would be redundant to post the text here again, with so few changes. However, here is the new first par. of the "What is the Sil." part.

"After the death of J.R.R. Tolkien, his son Christopher put The Silmarillion together from writings that his father had worked on throughout his life. Although Tolkien had sought to have these tales published, he was discouraged by his publisher and was unable to do so during his lifetime."

Here is the corrected sentence (stars removed) in FoolOfATook's submission:

"I think this technique works because the history in the book is cumulative, each chapter building on the chapters before it."


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## Walter (Jan 29, 2003)

First: Sorry for my slow responses these days, my computer access at home is limited due to a renovation of my study...

Elennainie: Only the part in the bigger font was supposed for the "Guide".

----

Nóm, Elennainie or anyone else: Who is going to post the page at the Wiki? Or if you e-mail me the "final version" I can post it as well...


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## Confusticated (Feb 22, 2003)

I don't know yet Walter. It would probably be best that someone E-mail it to you, since I have no idea where to put it at the Wiki. FoolOfATook has not editted it yet, so I am not sure when it will be ready.

About the graphic version, I'm putting it at a webpage and seem to have misplaced one of the files, I must have gave it some crazy name. I'm still looking for it though, and if it does not turn up I will ask Elennainie if she would send it again


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## Walter (Feb 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Nóm _
> About the graphic version, I'm putting it at a webpage and seem to have misplaced one of the files, I must have gave it some crazy name. I'm still looking for it though, and if it does not turn up I will ask Elennainie if she would send it again


 You could send that one as well and I'll make it available at the Wiki


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## Elennainie (Feb 24, 2003)

I still have all the graphic files, let me know which you need.


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## FoolOfATook (Feb 25, 2003)

Just for the record, when I'm through with the lion's share of the current testing ordeal, I'm planning on throwing myself into revisions and additions to the guide. There's some material from Tom Shippey's _ Road to Middle-earth_ that I'd like to work into the guide in some way. I'm planning on almost completely rewriting the section I wrote regarding strategies for approaching the texts, both to improve upon prose that I wrote rather hastily, as well as to incorporate some new ideas and conclusions that I've since arrived at. I'm considering writing a fairly detailed, albeit concise, history of the text and J.R.R. Tolkien's approach to writing it. There are some other ideas that I have too. I've already discussed most of this with Nom (since this project owes more to her than anyone else, or at least that's the impression that I have), but I thought that I should mention it to the other parties who have also contributed a good deal of their time and efforts to this most worthy undertaking.


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## Walter (Feb 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Elennainie _
> *I still have all the graphic files, let me know which you need.  *


 I think the most recent - complete - one would be fine...


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## Walter (Feb 28, 2003)

As a first step I have posted the graphic version Elennainie has compiled at the TolkienWiki. The file is now available for download at this page: Silmarillion Guide.

This has been made possible with countless hours of working overtime (mainly at Elennainies side) and I hope y'all will appreciate that   

----

P.S.: If any of the contributors has concerns regarding his contribution being published at the TolkienWiki please state it here.


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## Confusticated (Mar 1, 2003)

I see the graphics have changed, they look nice.

I have to say though, that I think this thing has gone too far almost. That is, it is being treated like something more than what it is; unless others are viewing it differently than I am.

It's content is what it is because I orginally thought we could open a thread in the Silmarillion forum where people who don't know what The Silmarillion is, or who wonder if they should read it, could go to find out more.

One of the most important things about this was (in my mind anyhow) that this be very accessable to anyone at TTF who might be wondering what the book is or if they shoudld read it.

If they have to download a pdf, over 1 mb at that, how many will do it?

I am saying that I think we put more work into this than need be. The graphics look good, but I think we have gone so far as to defeat our own purposes. Unless my purpose was different than everyone elses.

Frankly, if people want to go further out of their way than looking at a thread or perhaps following a link to a place where they can view the graphic without having to download it, that person would be just as well off searching the web on her/his own for information. The thing is, that some people do not do that, they rather ask us here at TTF, and have a quick straight answer from forum members. That is what I wanted to give them.

Of course you guys can do whatever you want with it, as I started it for GoT and anyone else interested, but it has gone beyond, or away from what I envisioned to the extent that I have nothing to contibute as I can not even understand the thoughts of you guys who treat this thing like it is more than a half decent description, a nice graphic and a few opinions about the book.


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## Walter (Mar 1, 2003)

Well, thanks, Nom, this cheerful hint was all contributing members (and Elennainie for doing the layout) needed the most, as a reward for all the thought and work they've put into it....

The main disadvantage of providing such a "guide" in form of a thread at a BBS like TTF is, that it is - almost - impossible for a given team to work at one and the same document and still provide the most recent version for everyone interested in reading it.

Still, I think your - original - idea was a good one, maybe it was wrong of me to provide the printable - and hence rather large - form _before_ providing the editable plain text version at the Wiki. But since you did not seem wanting to put any more efforts in it for a couple of weeks now, I thought it a good idea to post what there has been done until now - as a start or else all former contributions would've been no more than a waste of time. 

With all respect, Nom, what I would like you to consider for the future is, that if you venture and launch a project like the "Silmarillion Guide", you should be prepared supporting it for an extended period of time rather than abandoning it after a little while, and turning down those who are still interested in seeing it to an end.


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## Confusticated (Mar 1, 2003)

Well FoolOfATook is going to do some editting and additons. I'm not much of a writer.

I do not see how I should be a part of something that has become a thing who's purpose I do not understand.

Clearly FoolOfATook, and others here have different ideas for this, so they can do what they will with it.

It is not my place to give rewards.
The reward I suppose would be the finished product.

I do not think people have contributed for me, but for the project. I have thanked everyone for their contributions, but the thing is evolved into something that I do not get.



> With all respect, Nom, what I would like you to consider for the future is, that if you venture and launch a project like the "Silmarillion Guide", you should be prepared supporting it for an extended period of time rather than abandoning it after a little while, and turning down those who are still interested in seeing it to an end.


I supported it so long as it was a project with the original purpose, and if it still has that purpose I fail to understand how.
How have I turned anyone down? I am turning it over to those who have a different vision of this. The only other thing I could have done was organize the information as it came in, and posted it, or someone else have posted it, or editting into the existing posts. There is now no need for that to be done as it is not being posted, or placed at a website in such a way that I can edit it. Even the form I put at my webpage can not be editted, as it is a graphic, only additional ones can be made, but since they will be at the wiki I need not use my site and therefore I have nothing left to contribute to this thing unless it is an opinion, and I am not denying that to anyone.


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## Walter (Mar 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Nóm _
> There is now no need for that to be done as it is not being posted, or placed at a website in such a way that I can edit it.


 Meanwhile it is posted at the Wiki in editable form.

Please feel free to edit and contribute further...


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## Confusticated (Mar 1, 2003)

Okay, I have changed "Nom" to "group effort" for the description under _What is the Silmarillion?_.


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## Walter (Mar 2, 2003)

So I have noticed, Adaneth...

I hope the rest of the team will go on supporting this project, since it is a very good idea, ....


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## MATTMAN (Mar 2, 2003)

*I really enjoyed*

NOM, That is so cool. I just recently started to read the Sim., and really enjoy anything that I can come accross that can help me out. Thanks


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## Confusticated (Apr 12, 2003)

I'm making up a thread where we can have our stuff on the first posts, and the many posts to follow after will be mergers of threads where people have asked what the book is or if they should read it.

I am working on it in a forum area that (unfortunately) you guys can not see. 

Right now I have included what is in my long, first draft type post found on this page.

I am wondering if anyone would like to alter their statement as it appears in that post.

Also, anyone who has not yet, is welcomed to give a statemnt, or answer to the question:"Should I read The Silmarillion?"

Findiulas, I wonder if you have an aditted versioon of the poem that you'd like to submit in place of the one you posted here?

Do I have everyone's permission to include their statement in my post (the first post of a long thread)?

Also, in the first posts I'll give a link to the versions at the Wiki.

Does anyone have suggestions or anything to say?


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## Elennainie (Apr 12, 2003)

> Do I have everyone's permission to include their statement in my post (the first post of a long thread)?


You have my permission, Nom. I'm glad to see you getting back to this project. And congratulations on your new position as Mod.


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## Confusticated (Apr 12, 2003)

I have moved the thread to the Silmarillion form.

I'm always willing to edit it if need be, so do not hesitate to ask me to change a statement, or add one.



Here's the thread.


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