# The inevitability of decay



## Húrin Thalion (Nov 26, 2003)

This thread is written mainly with the exiled Dúnedain (Arnor, Gondor) in thought, but is as applyable to for example Númenor itself. Tolkien's ME is a throughly conservative world, all the struggles are for the preservation of the past, from the Second age on. The old elven culture and realms are preserved artificially by Rings and futile wars, not willing to abandon ME, the Kingdom's of the West are fighting a similar battle to preserve their elvish heritage and culture, not to speak about their former greatness. Always it is spoken about how the "Numenorean's dwindled in their exile" or "the craftsmanship and skill of the west forgotten".

Or if we look at the policies fo Gondor, did they ever try to expand their territories to the east and south for any alsting period? They had the strength, surely, but were staisfied with defeating their enemies and keeping guard on what they had, letting their children play with gems and pearls. Did they try to change the fierce mind of the eastern peoples, teach them the elvish crafts and cultures? They are sitting on their castles of sand, awaiting and fending of the ever rising tide, just preserving what they have had, but there is also something else there. Gradual decay. The strength and blood of Gondor failed, Arnor was corrupted and fell apart, they were lessened in stature, skill and also numbers. Why is this decay so inevitable? Why does what is great not last?

Måns


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## HLGStrider (Nov 26, 2003)

Boy, this thread got cut down to nothing. It was more interesting the old way.

I still attribute it to the following factors:

A. Growing fear, or non-acceptance, of death

B. Loss of respect for the Valar.

C. Loss of respect for the Elder. 

I'd call it a moral decay. The law of entropy states that everything goes bad.


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## Lantarion (Nov 27, 2003)

For all those a little confused, this is a copy of HT's original thread.

Well, what I said was that Húrin was on to something, and that the inevitability of decay could be taken as one of the main themes of the LotR. 
But there is little we can add to this, HT made such a compelling argument. 

But the Elves leaving M-e (indeed, leaving Arda) is yet another example of this decay; their noble and ancient traditions and lore were to be upheld only by the faithful Men, while they create their own devisings.


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## HelplessModAddi (Nov 30, 2003)

Just my two cents:

Tolkien does not necessarily portray conservative people or thought patterns as the heroes and heroic causes in his works. Many times, the reactionary king/warrior/steward ends up in a bad situation because of an unwillingness to accept change. Turin doomed Nargothrond because he convinced its people to fight the "good old way." Turgon's people got slaughtered because Turgon himself refused to let go of the glory of the city. Denethor went insane because the inevitable change in his life was unacceptable to him. In fact, usually the heroes are those who think of new and different ways of defeating the enemy. It was rather gutsy of Earendil to risk the potential wrath of the Valar by travelling into the West. It was pretty much a wild gamble letting two lone hobbits infiltrate the dark land of Sauron himself. These are the people who saved their respective worlds.

But anyway, about decay. Yes, decay (defined as "regrettable change") is inevitable. Yes, people in Tolkien's works fight it anyway. Yes, they are fighting a lost cause. It is, to me, what makes his works so tragically hypnotizing.

EDIT: Sorry about that first paragraph, I get a little carried away whenever anyone says anything that smacks of politics.


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## HLGStrider (Dec 1, 2003)

I think it would be a stretch to say HT's post refers to conservative in a political way. More of a philosophical way.


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## Húrin Thalion (Dec 1, 2003)

Yes, thank you for that HLGStrider.

However, the voyage of Eärendil, think of what made him do it. He wanted to save and maintain the Elves and the Edain! Regardign Turgon, a sally was not necessarily the right thing to do, even if ti is easy to think so since Tuor, the "hero" did. It could just as well have ended with the Gondothlim being surrounded upon the plains and slain. Morevore, those are select and rather concrete example, I was talking about it in a more abstract and open way.

And you can get as carried away as you like, I just don't see the politics in this..... Oh, I am not a conservative, the opposite in fact, a socialist, or social democrat if you like. Come to think fo it, feels like we are fighting an impossible battle here, maintaining our welfare system despite the changes in the world and the enemy within, not to get harsh enough to compare the right wingers to Uldor the accursed and his men.

Måns


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## HLGStrider (Dec 2, 2003)

I am a conservative. . .the Libertarian Capitalist type

I still stick with my answer.

Also they learned to listen to lies of bad guys. . .


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## Húrin Thalion (Dec 2, 2003)

Regarding the cutting down of this thread, it was NOT odne by the evil mods but by me. I am also interested in the Roman empire and has studied it quite a bit. If you want to discuss it with me, just PM me and I will reply. 

GG, still waiting for the continuation of your last PM. You said you agreed with me that Augustus was a genius, but I said quite the opposite, that he established an at least formally legal form for his government but failed in most other aspects. However, I will take that in the PM. 

Regarding your answer, HLGStrider. You are talking abouyt very concrete reasons, and tehy are rather the symptoms than the causes of decay. I am not talking about a single case cases, but a tendency through the history of ME.... Read my posts again, carefully, and think them over. 

Måns


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## HLGStrider (Dec 3, 2003)

The opening post dealt with Numenor. I think those were the reasons behind Numenor's downfall, not the symptoms.

Other situations had different reasons. 

You can say that there is an overall force of decay, but unless there is a source of that force (pardon the accidental rhyme) it all goes to coincidence, which can't be very conclusive.

I really don't think we can find any cause other than axioms (all good things come to an end).


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## Húrin Thalion (Dec 3, 2003)

Then you have obviously not understood my point or thread, read again, post again, post right.

Måns


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## HLGStrider (Dec 4, 2003)

I'm sorry, but your post is a little confusing, as you said you got carried away.



> Why is this decay so inevitable? Why does what is great not last?




This is the point right?

I thought I answered it in my last post.



> You can say that there is an overall force of decay, but unless there is a source of that force (pardon the accidental rhyme) it all goes to coincidence, which can't be very conclusive.



This answers why decay is so inevitable. ..or more of says why we can't answer it.

Your first posts lists two (and in passing three) instances of decay and lists possible reasons. Then you ask why. I gave knew reasons for the decay and said there was no reason.

What more do you want? A sonet? I can do sonets!


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## laurelindorenan (Dec 4, 2003)

I think that decay must be inevitable. What power is there in the world strong enough to resist time? Even the strongest have to fall. This may also be a good thing, because it can give rise to new life, a new world and perhaps a more sophisticated life.


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## HLGStrider (Dec 6, 2003)

That didn't happen, however.

This thread sort of ties in with my brother's constant critisism joke of the Lord of the Rings. 

That there was absolutely no technilogical advances from the Last Alliance to the War of the Ring.

He says they should have at least got up to air planes, or something like that.

And he's right. Advancement seems negilible at best. There isn't any change. Tolkien's world had a constant culture, economy, and technology. The only thing that seems to change is the languages.

Which can be explained if you want to be realisitic:

Tolkien wasn't a sociologist, economist, or technician. He was a linguist/philologist.

but who wants be to realistic?


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## Gandalf The Grey (Dec 6, 2003)

...
.....
....... 

Here's a quote I deem bears on this conversation:

"... but Melkor too was there from the first, and he meddled in all that was done, turning it if he might to his own desires and purposes" -- Ainulindalë

Hullo *Elgee,* 

I like your answer.  (For reference I'll quote you below):



> A. Growing fear, or non-acceptance, of death
> B. Loss of respect for the Valar.
> C. Loss of respect for the Elder.



*Húrin Thalion,* 

What is your reasoning for considering *Elgee's* answer to be representative of symptoms rather than of causes? Perhaps there are instances where symptoms might also themselves be causes?

In fact, I would daresay that Melkor, and later on, his apprentice Sauron, wielded "a tendency through the history of ME," as you say, to spread fear of death, disprespect even in the form of downright and utter forgetfulness of the Valar, and estrangement between races (for example, Men and Elves, or Dwarves and Elves, hence "loss of respect for the Eldar") ... and in this light I see merit in *Elgee's* answer.

Looking forward to a cordial exchange of ideas,

Gandalf the Grey


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## Lúthien Séregon (Dec 6, 2003)

Decay seems to be a theme intertwined with the fate of humankind especially. A quote from the Return of the King:



> “If Gondor has such men still in these days of fading, great must have been its glory in the days of its rising.”
> “And doubtless the good stone-work is the older and was wrought in the first building,” said Gimli. “It is ever so with the things that Men begin: there is a frost in Spring, or a blight in Summer, and they fail of their promise.”
> “Yet seldom do they fail of their seed,” said Legolas. “And that will lie in the dust and rot to spring up again in times and places unlooked-for. The deeds of Men will outlast us, Gimli.”
> “And yet come to naught in the end but might-have-beens, I guess,” said the Dwarf.
> “To that the Elves know not the answer,” said Legolas.



The frost or blight that Gimli refers to is indicative of the dark seed planted by Melkor in humankind’s hearts, as they fell under his shadow more so than the Elves and the Dwarves, I think. The decay of humankind continued long after Melkor’s downfall, failing of the things they began through doubt and fear. Moral decay is a part of that shadow, as referred to by the Messengers trying to convince the people of Numenor that death was a gift from Iluvatar, and fear of it is a result of the shadow of Melkor living still. This fear and doubt caused the loss of respect for the Eldar and the Valar, and as a consequence more estrangement between the races, and therefore decline in understanding and culture.

The decline of the Elves and Dwarves seems to be a different nature, although estrangement between Elves and Dwarves is also a factor. The Elves and Dwarves’ works and cultures were diminished as a result or during the time of Morgoth’s dominion of Middle-Earth, and his uprising, such as the death of Feanor or the unleashing of the Balrogs. Hence, their fate was shadowed more from battle or death, and the eventual departing of the Elves to the Undying Lands. Their existence upon Middle-Earth faded, whilst the deeds of humans lived on, but only as “might-have-beens”. 

In short, Melkor was used to represent the source of the evil and corruption that triggered the events leading to decline and decay.

I'm referring mostly to sources within Tolkien's writing itself, and not to outside philosophies or moral understandings, as I think that all of these should be tied in within Lord of the Rings. I apologize if this is not what was intended by this thread however.


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## Lantarion (Dec 6, 2003)

> _'The Silmarillion', 'Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath'_
> But Morgoth himself the Valar thrust through the Door of Night beyond the Walls of the World, into the Timeless Void; and a guard is set for ever on those walls, and Eärendil keeps watch upon the ramparts of the sky. *Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Teror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear fruit even unto the latest days.*


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## Gandalf The Grey (Dec 6, 2003)

* Nods agreement with and appreciation for the posts of *Lúthien Séregon* and *Lantarion*, as their words and quotes add weight and build upon his own previous post (wherein he already addressed *Elgee* and *Húrin Thalion* with much the same response) with its quote from the Ainulindalë and commentary regarding Melkor's intrusion from the beginning carrying through as a trend down through the Ages in Middle Earth. *


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## Lantarion (Dec 6, 2003)

> * Nods agreement with and appreciation for the posts of Lúthien Séregon and Lantarion, as their words and quotes add weight and build upon his own previous post (wherein he already addressed Elgee and Húrin Thalion with much the same response) with its quote from the Ainulindalë and commentary regarding Melkor's intrusion from the beginning carrying through as a trend down through the Ages in Middle Earth. *


Uhh... glad to hear it..


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## Úlairi (Dec 8, 2003)

LMAO, or one could quite simply blame the second law of thermodynamics. Confound science, we are talking science *fiction* here!

Cheers,

Ulairi.


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## Húrin Thalion (Dec 11, 2003)

Ok, sorry if I haven't replied here in a while, there's a lot to do before the vacancies. I will have to go to school in exactly 14 minutes, so this won't be nearly as good as it should have been, this thread deservs a better answer than this.

HLGStrider, I am not talking about lack of development. I am talking about the nature of these stories, there is always decay involved. The reasons do not matter, but what we can see is that the parts that we read the most about is the one of decay. For example, how much do we read about the war of the Noldor against Morgoth before Dagor Bragollach? How much of the Akallabêth is taken up by the corruption of Númenor? I think this is an interesting and highly conscious choice by Tolkien. Very aestetic, it depicts men's and elves' eternal struggle agaisnt the ever approaching horde, like children on a castle of sand. There is also another enemy, the moral corruption form within, the constant waning of power and skill which si waht I am talking about I do no think tghat they should ahev invented the aeroplane, I am just noting a seemingly endless decline in knowledge and skill, after a short period of learning coems along one of forgetting.

Måns


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## HLGStrider (Dec 11, 2003)

Actually, I don't think I've read the Akallabêth. I exhausted my libraries Tolkien books years ago, and (it's part of the HoME, right?), I don't believe it is among them. I have only read one of the volumes of the HoME and after I read it it disappeared from my library and that was about five years ago. . .that is the main reason I stick to the LotR's section of this forum. I don't have the ability to look up anything else or the memory to remember what I read back when I was thirteen and fourteen with enough exactness. . .

but, if that is what we're going to discuss, isn't this thread in the wrong section?


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## Úlairi (Dec 11, 2003)

Perhaps we are not really referring to _decay_, but more what Tolkien defined as "'change' viewed as a regrettable thing", and this was the purpose of creating the Three, to hold back time.



> _Letters of JRRT: Letter #181 To Michael Straight (drafts)_
> *"Mere change as such is not represented as 'evil': it is the unfolding of the story and to refuse this is of course against the design of God."*



You would have to be a fool if you do not realize that Tolkien is referring to the Valar. Tolkien says many times in 'Letters' that the Elves 'wanted to have their cake and eat it too'. They wanted Middle-Earth to be just like Valinor, and this is where Sauron found the weakness of the Elves. Hence, _decay_ was completely inexorable, as the Elves were acting against the wishes of the Valar. A simple answer to what was thought of as a complex question. However, don't take my word for it, there are so many references in 'Letters' about this topic.


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## Arvedui (Dec 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> *Actually, I don't think I've read the Akallabêth. I exhausted my libraries Tolkien books years ago, and (it's part of the HoME, right?) *


No.
It is in _The Silmarillion,_ with the under-title _The Downfall of Númenor._


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## Lantarion (Dec 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ulairi_
> You would have to be a fool if you do not realize that Tolkien is referring to the Valar.


Well, I wouldn't be so sure.. After all the quote is "...against the design of *God*", not "of *the Gods*". As I see it, 'God' here probably means Eru Ilúvatar, or perhaps the Christian God to Tolkien himself.

But you have a point when you say the Elves wanted M-e to be alike to Valinor.. Haha and it seems that when it didn't work, they just left to see the real thing! What quitters eh.. 

Elgee _Akallabêth_ is the Adûnaic translation of the word 'downfall'. I'm surprised you haven't read it, it's in the Silmarillion.


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## Úlairi (Dec 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lantarion _
> *Well, I wouldn't be so sure.. After all the quote is "...against the design of God", not "of the Gods". As I see it, 'God' here probably means Eru Ilúvatar, or perhaps the Christian God to Tolkien himself.
> 
> But you have a point when you say the Elves wanted M-e to be alike to Valinor.. Haha and it seems that when it didn't work, they just left to see the real thing! What quitters eh..
> ...



You know what I mean Lantarion, and I don't have a point at all. It is Tolkien's own point on his own text! Not mine! _Letters_ seems to be somewhat neglected here, and most of the answers to many of the questions I have are in there.


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## HLGStrider (Dec 13, 2003)

Wait, I have read it then. . .I just didn't recongize the name. 

It's funny, for some reason, I'd see that refered to somewhere else and assumed it was a very long poem Tolkien had written. . .I don't know what gave me that impression.

I haven't read it in about two years, however.


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## Lantarion (Dec 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ulairi_
> You know what I mean Lantarion


I suppose, but I think it's a very substantial differentiation, Valar or Eru.. Which has the actual supreme governing power of decision? The Valar have great but only limited control of Arda, while Ilúvatar can change anything he wants (presumably).


> _ibid._
> and I don't have a point at all. It is Tolkien's own point on his own text! Not mine!


Doh! Right thanks for the correction.


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## Úlairi (Dec 14, 2003)

You're welcome. Also, I believe we would acknowledge Eru as that power.


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## Helcaraxë (Dec 14, 2003)

Actually, I don't think the decay was because of an internal problem. Change is inevitable. Nothing can remain static forever. The stature and power of the Numenoreans was lessened simply bacause it could not remain as it was and still be subject to the implaccable laws of change. As was said before, Tolkien seems to have believed that all things must end, even if they only give way to new beginnings. The first age ended, the power and glory of the Eldar in Middle-earth was diminished, and the second age began. The second age passed, making way for the third age which was less in its power and glory both of good and evil than the Second. Such is the way of things.

MB


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## Lantarion (Dec 14, 2003)

Good sum up, I think.


> _Originally posted by MorgothsBane_
> Nothing can remain static forever.


Except the level of technology in Arda.


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## Húrin Thalion (Dec 14, 2003)

Once again, usually, development is a continuous process and described as such. In LotR and the Silmarillion, it is described as an unstooppable process of rotting, the old world has to be gone before the new can take it's place. The old world of the elves and the good men seems deemed to go under, it is always struggling against the overwhelming odds, before the elves at last pass into the west and men, they must become assimilated at last. This has to do with the obvious differences between elves and men, but I prefer to look at it as an aestetic theme in Tolkien's works.

Måns


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## Úlairi (Dec 14, 2003)

There was no decay, decay was merely 'change' viewed as a regrettable thing. The world had to change, and the Elves had to accept that change. But they couldn't, which is not why the world around them decayed, it is why they dwindled. But the Age of Men was just beginning.


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## Osric (Sep 4, 2004)

A couple of clicks and I ended up having browsed to this old thread...

It's quite understandable to think -- even to scoff -- that it's a flaw in Tolkien's histories that there is no technological development across all 3000 years of Gondor's history, like there would be in "any society". But Tolkien obviously chose not to, and it's usually dangerous to argue with him!

For one thing he had to have a decline, because his plan was to provide a rich mythical alternative history of our world. This obviously couldn't have just developed onwards and upwards until it became ours without clashing with the history that we already have. Ultimately it all had to die out and leave wilderness with no more than scattered barbarians from which our accepted history could start, only eventually rediscovering the technology of steel etc.

To 'play the game' we have to accept this and then try to figure out why it was the way he described. 

There has to be a fundamental difference between Tolkien's phase of imaginary history and our more modern history in which "any society" would achieve technological advancement.
I think the difference has to be in the 'religion' of Gondor, which styled itself (one of) the Realm(s) in Exile, dominated by the Faithful descendants of Númenor. Their religion was to maintain the faith of Eru as described by their friends the Elves, in which lores such as technology were the gifts of Eru (possibly via the Valar) given to the Númenoreans, but lost in the Akallabêth. Perhaps it was inconceivable, or perhaps it was even 'heretical' that they should try to rediscover or reinvent these things that were a divine blessing. Perhaps this was why their greatest minds turned not to engineering and invention, but to potions seeking to prolong their lives, or to foolishly seeking the secrets of the future in the stars (as described in a speech of Faramir's).

It is tempting even to suggest that the Valar actively prevented technological development, having seen the Vision of Eru as not including any technologies beyond a certain level. This admittedly ought to be unlikely, since we do know of the development of blasting fire that seems very similar to gunpowder, and since we are told that the Will of Eru is "as fate" to all the Children _except_ Men.

_*--Os.*_


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