# Earendil and Ancalagon



## Inderjit S

How does a guy in a ship (with a really bright light), fight a giant dragon and kill him. How do giant eagles fight dragons? The former has always puzzled me.


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## Thorondor_

> How does a guy in a ship (with a really bright light), fight a giant dragon and kill him


I think it has to do with the power of the Silmaril he has.


> How do giant eagles fight dragons?


You might as well ask how does an Eagle (though it was the Eagle King) fight Morgoth, wounds him, and gets away unscathed. 
Imo, the whole power of this race has to do with the fact that they are the emissaries of the Elder King, who prove to be the agents of his grace in some very critical situations.


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## Barliman Butterbur

Inderjit S said:


> How does a guy in a ship (with a really bright light), fight a giant dragon and kill him. How do giant eagles fight dragons? The former has always puzzled me.



Carefully...?

Barley


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## Kainrath

i liked the way jackson and company showed the eagles attacking the fell beasts at the black gate....i thought it was protrayed believably how an eagle might do battle with another flying creature...be it fell beasts or dragons...


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## e.Blackstar

woot for eagles!


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## Arvedui

IMO, there is a likeness between the two "occations." And I think that the reason that Eärendil is able to kill Ancalagon, and that the Eagles can fight dragons, is that they are all blessed by Manwë.


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## Ithrynluin

I imagine Earendil standing on the bow of Vingilot his ship, which was hallowed by the Valar, and thus may have had improved maneuverability and durability in itself, holding his sword high in one hand, and channelling the power of the Silmaril in the other, much like Sam utilized the light of Galadriel's phial against Shelob (a lesser jewel, but also a lesser adversary).

As for (giant) eagles I suppose they make the most of their (giant!) beaks and (giant!) claws, and are able to penetrate even the dragons' sturdy armour if they do enough slashing and hacking?


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## Grond

How did a group of 15 - 20 men overcome a Mastodon? I envision that Earendil had a spear or bow and that he did not face Ancalagon with merely a sword in hand. As has already been said, the Silmaril would have given him great power (aka the Phial of Gladriel) and that could have blinded Ancalagon while Earendil maneuvered to a position where he could pierce the Dragon's eye or shoot him in a vulnerable spot. As with most legendary deeds, it is long on deed and light on description.

As for the Eagles, they were described as being much larger than our Eagles (able to carry Gandalf, etc.) and would have attacked dragons the same way they attack any other adversary... from above, with talons and beak ready to attack. Kinda like this!


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## Ingwë

Indy said:


> How does a guy in a ship (with a really bright light), fight a giant dragon and kill him


Ah, is he on the ship? i have always thought that he killed him after landing. Anyway, it was very difficult. We know that the Dragons have only one ill spot. But Earendil had the Light of Valinor - he had the Silmaril. we remember what happened Carharoth when he 'ate' Beren's hand with the Jewel in it. It was terrible to the evil creature to have the Light in its stomach. It made him mad and according to me it would kill him if the Jewel remained it him a few more hours. Probably the light blinded the Dragon and Earendil pierced him. If I was a writer I would write the story this way 



Indy said:


> How do giant eagles fight dragons?


They used their beaks... or bills


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## Lhunithiliel

Inderjit S said:


> How does a guy in a ship (with a really bright light), fight a giant dragon and kill him. How do giant eagles fight dragons? The former has always puzzled me.



What do we know about the transformation of *Vingilot*?



> But they took Vingilot, and hallowed it, and bore it away through Valinor to the uttermost rim of the world; and there it passed through the Door of Night and was lifted up even into the oceans of heaven.
> 
> Now fair and marvellous was that vessel made, and it was filled with a *wavering flame*, pure and bright; and Eärendil the Mariner sat at the helm, glistening with dust of elven-gems, and the Silmaril was bound upon his brow.


/_Silmarillion; my highlighting/_

Then comes the battle, when:



> Eärendil came, *shining with white flame*, and about Vingilot were gathered all the great birds of heaven and Thorondor was their captain, and there was battle in the air all the day and through a dark night of doubt. Before the rising of the sun Eärendil slew Ancalagon the Black, the mightiest of the dragon-host, and cast him from the sky; and he fell upon the towers of Thangorodrim, and they were broken in his ruin.



Now, I might be mistaken, but if the '_*light*_' = '_*white flame*_' of Vingilot is the same that the Valar had since the days of the shaping ot Arda and ME in particular, then no force could have any chance against this flame, for it must be the divine Flame Imperishable - the same that was used to maintain the Blessed Realm, the same that used to be in the Trees (and let's not forget that Morgoth was ever after it and never got it!), the same which was enclosed in the Silmarils... 
So a creature of the Dark Lord could not defeat it!

As for the eagles, I think Manwe's servants were no less or weaker in stature and might than the creatures of Morgoth. On the other hands, the Eagles were Maiar (there is this theory, isn't there!) which makes them creations of Eru himself, while the dragons were just Morgoth's creations, and as such could not win against the creations of Eru.

And finally .... this is, after all, a myth, a tale ... Good must prevail!


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## Thorondor_

I found an interesting clue in the Akallabeth, Silmarillion:


> And some of the eagles bore *lightning *beneath their wings, and thunder echoed between sea and cloud.


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## Aiwendil2

> And some of the eagles bore lightning beneath their wings, and thunder echoed between sea and cloud.



Doesn't this refer to the _clouds_ in the shapes of eagles sent from the west as a sign?


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## ltnjmy

Inderjit S said:


> How does a guy in a ship (with a really bright light), fight a giant dragon and kill him. How do giant eagles fight dragons? The former has always puzzled me.


 
I have also wondered - How did Earendil slay Ancalagon the Black ? Has anyone wondered how Professor Tolkien conceptualized this - did he zoom in on the battle in his flying ship and shot death rays from the Simaril that was on his brow ?


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## Bucky

*Are we to take every story in The Silmarillion as literal?

Did a piece of fruit & a leaf that could be held in the hand become the sun & the moon?

The same with Earendil & Ancalagon.....

First we have no Elves of Middle-earth present to record the event & likely the stories come down through the Edain, who have little knowledge of the Valar.

Next, it supposedly happens right before sunrise.

I would bet that it is more likely than a boat floating in the air, a Maia or two blasts Ancalgon, the Edain see him crash, seeing the flash of light or first rays of the sun, "Hey, what was that flash of light?" "I don't know, but it was as bright as a silmaril."......

Next thing you know, the story grows in the telling until you have Earendil in a boat flying in the sky killing a dragon who's size is also greatly exagerated (are we to believe he's big enough to fall on three peaks that are said to be the biggest in Middle-earth? That would make Ancalagon MILES long)

I think we need to look at our own world to see how stories from the past (even recent past) get exagerated to see how this type of thing goes.....

*


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## Illuin

Just like the old fisherman’s tales (to keep others away from their fishing hot spots) about the giant sea creatures that ripped ships apart and pulled them down into the depths (actually just a dead five foot squid that was caught in their nets).


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## Bucky

Or, I was just thinking, in recent times, about in baseball how there are super-human stories of legendary players from around the turn of the century & especiallky in the Negro Leagues, where official records are sketchy....

Therefore, tale tales seem to grow until they are taken as fact.....

Tolkien even seemed to put a bit of this into the telling of _Quenta Silmarillion_ himself: That it was told from 2 or 3, perhaps more, sources down from the 'horse's mouth' & was sometimes remote, other times more detailed.


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## ltnjmy

Bucky said:


> Tolkien even seemed to put a bit of this into the telling of _Quenta Silmarillion_ himself: That it was told from 2 or 3, perhaps more, sources down from the 'horse's mouth' & was sometimes remote, other times more detailed.


 
I believe I see your point - Earendil's slaying of Ancalagon was something that Professor Tolkien tried to represent as an embellished myth


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## Turgon

He stood upon his boat,
And with his spear he did smote,
The dragon in his scrote
Um... Twas victory she wrote!


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## Bucky

I believe I see your point - Earendil's slaying of Ancalagon was something that Professor Tolkien tried to represent as an embellished myth 

*No, that's TOTAL speculation on my part....

What I said was that Tolkien presents or rather, Christopher Tolkien says - that 'my father came to view the Silmarillion as a compilation , a compendious narrative, made long afterwards from sources of great diversity (poems, and annals and oral tales)'' 

I.E., that it had been passed down thousands of years through several retellings......

One can take every word at face value, but it's very likely that just in every culture where actual documents are not kept, such 'passing down of oral taditions' leads to embelishment.....

So, I find it pretty hard to think a boat came flying into Middle-earth & slew a massively enlarged dragon in my view.

So, I prefer my take...
No big thing.*


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## Turgon

You know Bucky - this is something that never bothered me. I always thought that he used a bow or a spear or somesuch - much like the other people here. Okay Bard slew Smaug using his black arrow - a relatively normal chap using (perhaps) an enchanted arrow and thus recapturing the glory of his forefathers. Turin stole his dragon-slaying idea from Nordic Mythology - but still managed to do for Glaurung - who we actually see as a great dragon - not just hear some legends about. So now we have Earendil - the half-elven - son of the awesome Tuor - greatest of men - Grandson of Turgon - coolest of TTF posters. Do we need to boggle that he killed a dragon from an airbourne ship? Ancalagon's death would have been a cake walk to him - off the top of my head I can think of five ways to encompass it.

*Edit:* I prefer my poetic version however!


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## Bucky

Oh, I stumbled upon this quote on another site, a post by a soon to be published Tolkien author (book on the Silmarillion)

From 'Myth's Transformed':

It is now clear to me that in any case the Mythology must actually be a 'Mannish' affair. (Men are really only interested in Men and in Men's ideas and visions.) The High Eldar living and being tutored by the demiurgic beings must have known, or at least their writers and loremasters must have known, the 'truth' (according to their measure of understanding). What we have in the Silmarillion etc. are traditions (especially personalized, and centred upon actors, such as Fëanor) handed on by Men in Númenor and later in Middle-earth (Arnor and Gondor); but already far back - from the first association of the Dúnedain and Elf-friends with the Eldar in Beleriand - blended and confused with their own Mannish myths and cosmic ideas.


*It seems to back up what I've been saying about the 'passed down through many hands' theory......*


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## Nalcyon

FWIW I choose to take the stories in the Sil as literal. I think the dragon got pwnd. In my fantasy world I enter when I read these stories, I _want _to believe it is true. And I mean true as in the context of Tolkien's world. In other words I don't want to be reading about middle earth and hearing things that are _myth _in middle earth, I want to hear about things that actually happened in middle earth.


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## Bucky

Nalcyon said:


> FWIW I choose to take the stories in the Sil as literal. I think the dragon got pwnd. In my fantasy world I enter when I read these stories, I _want _to believe it is true. And I mean true as in the context of Tolkien's world. In other words I don't want to be reading about middle earth and hearing things that are _myth _in middle earth, I want to hear about things that actually happened in middle earth.



*This is a typical attitude/view in the world of Tolkien/Middle-earth these days....

The author lays out HIS view in plain black & white right on the printed page, yet the readers of today (by and large) insist anyhow "I believe the text means this or that to me" despite Tolkien's clear debuttle of their 'theories/opinions'....... 

Just like supposed Christians reinterpretting the bible to fit their needs instead of following what the word clearly says. *


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## Nalcyon

Bucky said:


> *This is a typical attitude/view in the world of Tolkien/Middle-earth these days....*
> 
> *The author lays out HIS view in plain black & white right on the printed page, yet the readers of today (by and large) insist anyhow "I believe the text means this or that to me" despite Tolkien's clear debuttle of their 'theories/opinions'....... *
> 
> *Just like supposed Christians reinterpretting the bible to fit their needs instead of following what the word clearly says. *


 
Please don't tell me you believe the Bible is less mythological than the Silmarrillion! I think there are more inconsistencies in it!











*sorry, I know you aren't supposed to discuss religion, I was just trying to be provacative... Carry on!


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## Bucky

Nalcyon said:


> Please don't tell me you believe the Bible is less mythological than the Silmarrillion! I think there are more inconsistencies in it!
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> *sorry, I know you aren't supposed to discuss religion, I was just trying to be provacative... Carry on!



*No problem.....

I used to think the same thing myself and no man can change that, lol.......

'The wisdom of God is foolishness to men.'*


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## Ancalagon

I can tell you all now it was just a flesh wound, I'm fine, I will rid Arda of this Earendil character before you know it!


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## Alcuin

Ancalagon said:


> I can tell you all now it was just a flesh wound...


“just a flesh wound,” eh?


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## Peeping-Tom

I actually mentioned this in another thread too...

But this masive Dragon flies? Did it not?
What if Eärendil, and the Eagles, simply sliced Ancalagon's wings to shreads?

"Sorry Anca...No wings, no fly",...and Ancalagon fell down upon Thangorodrim and smashed it and himself good...end of the...well his story.


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## Edheldae

Some good points about Tolkien intentionally trying to be vague in his mythological style retelling, yet we insist on trying to pin him down to know what exactly happened.

I always imagined a shiny comet ala Silmaril flaring, death-from-above kind of drop with the keel of Vingilot bashing Ancalagon, followed up with prow-mounted ram to the gut. but then I'm always had an over-active imagination. :*cool:


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## Bard the Bowman

How can you people just not accept this as literal? Peeping-Tom has a good point, but it's not as cool as him actually slaying it. Earendil is in his magical flying ship. Ancalagon is this gigantic dragon. Obviously the power of the Silmaril had something to do with Earendil's victory. How could he accomplish what the Valar could not? It probably protected him from the blast and gave him greater strength. I also think that Vingilot would be more maneuverable than Ancalagon. He could have dodged Ancalagon and hopped on his head and then drive his sword through his brain. 

About the Eagles of Manwe being able to fight the dragons, Thorondor had a wingspan of thirty fathoms. That equals about 55 feet. That is one giant eagle. 30 or so of those should be able to tackle dragons. 

Also maybe Vingilot had a spike at the front and Earendil just went full speed ahead and rammed right into Ancalagon and then backed up letting him drop. Just a thought


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