# If LOTR Were Written in First Person, Whom Would You Pick as the Narrator?



## frodolives7601 (Sep 2, 2020)

I love novels written in the first person. So this morning, I began pondering whom I would choose as narrator if _LOTR _were written this way. My first choice would be Frodo because his character fascinates me, and I'd love to have more insights into what he was thinking and feeling at various points in his journey. My second choice would be Sam because I think his point of view might be more relatable than Frodo's; it can be hard to fully grasp what it would be like to bear the One Ring for a sustained period. My third choice would be Gandalf. I do think his point of view would be harder to relate to, but at the same time, it would be quite interesting!

How about you? Whom would you pick as the narrator, and why would you choose that character?


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## Olorgando (Sep 2, 2020)

I must confess that I don't think LoTR could be done in this way and retain any resemblance to the book we know.
Tom Shippey points out (in his "Road to Middle-earth) that, with the technique of 'interlacement', derived perhaps surprisingly from the French concept of _entrelacement_, most obviously seen in the two halves (books 3 and 4 by JRRT's definition) of volume 2 TTT, that even with this form of story, pretty much all participants are constantly confused, and in the dark, and not a few draw wrong conclusions (not the members of the Fellowship, at least not in the sense of resignation or giving up, anyway, fortunately).

If you take any, and I really mean *any*, of the characters in LoTR as a first-person narrator, how do you get him (all active members are he's) to tell the whole tale? You would be following a single thread, and just getting the other seven threads (after Boromir's death) collected would land you in a mass of flashbacks, and never mind the dozens of other threads (other, secondary, tertiary etc. characters) who have "cameos" or even just flit about like bats on the margins.

A first-person narrative might be an interesting exercise in fanfic. Replacement of LoTR as it is not a snowball's chance in hell. JRRT was writing a Fairy-story for adults where any "inner turmoil" (I'm wildly guessing here) of a first-person narrator would be interesting - *not!* Not *squat*, a term I'd guess JRRT could have been familiar with (unless too strongly west-Atlantic), but would hardly have used in written form.


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## frodolives7601 (Sep 2, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> I must confess that I don't think LoTR could be done in this way and retain any resemblance to the book we know.
> Tom Shippey points out (in his "Road to Middle-earth) that, with the technique of 'interlacement', derived perhaps surprisingly from the French concept of _entrelacement_, most obviously seen in the two halves (books 3 and 4 by JRRT's definition) of volume 2 TTT, that even with this form of story, pretty much all participants are constantly confused, and in the dark, and not a few draw wrong conclusions (not the members of the Fellowship, at least not in the sense of resignation or giving up, anyway, fortunately).
> 
> If you take any, and I really mean *any*, of the characters in LoTR as a first-person narrator, how do you get him (all active members are he's) to tell the whole tale? You would be following a single thread, and just getting the other seven threads (after Boromir's death) collected would land you in a mass of flashbacks, and never mind the dozens of other threads (other, secondary, tertiary etc. characters) who have "cameos" or even just flit about like bats on the margins.
> ...


Hi Olorgando,

I agree with you that it would probably be impossible to write _LOTR_ in this way, and that it wouldn't fit with what Tolkien was trying to do. I was just seeing it as an idea to play with. It's interesting to me to think about how different characters would tell the tale. I was probably thinking of _Grendel_, the novel that retells the Beowulf story from Grendel's point of view. It's very different in tone and style from the original poem, but I found it quite intriguing.


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## Deleted member 12094 (Sep 2, 2020)

TH and LotR are supposed to reflect the notes of the Red Book. So the TH part was theoretically written by Bilbo and most of the LotR part by Frodo (as requested by Bilbo) except for a small last part that was left to Sam.

If we see it from that angle, then there would be 3 narrators using the first person. As Olorgando already pointed out, this would still be impossible given the different paths the main characters were following throughout the story.

An alternative could have been to let each main character write his own part using the first person and then to put all of these parts together (Bram Stoker’s “Dracula” is an example of this technique). That might have worked, although I cannot imagine that the result would have been anywhere near the result as it stands now. Nor would it be logical to expect the grand King Elessar writing down his part at the request of good old Bilbo…

Nonetheless, you can check at least small parts of LotR where this technique is used, namely in “Flotsam and Jetsam” when Merry described the attack of the Ents against Isengard, and in “The last Debate” when Legolas described the ride with the oathbreaker army.


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## Olorgando (Sep 2, 2020)

Well, OK, what I do not have in the Beowulf legendarium is John Gardner's 1971 Novel.
What I do have in the Beowulf "tradition" is a German translation from 2007, the translation by Seamus Heaney (a self-professed Celt) from 1999, and Christopher Tolkien's 2014 edition. Added to that the 2005 film (Canadian-Icelandic) "Beowulf & Grendel" film which certainly shows quite a bit of sympathy to the supposed, misunderstood monster Grendel, the 2007 computer generated (based on real-life actors) "Beowulf", and the also 2007 live-action (if somewhat ridiculous) "Grendel".
These films I have listed in an ascending arc of my wishing to bang my head against any available wall at their taking liberties - or the looseness in which they adhered to that at least 1,000-year-old poem. Probably serious PJ territory ...


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## frodolives7601 (Sep 2, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> Well, OK, what I do not have in the Beowulf legendarium is John Gardner's 1971 Novel.
> What I do have in the Beowulf "tradition" is a German translation from 2007, the translation by Seamus Heaney (a self-professed Celt) from 1999, and Christopher Tolkien's 2014 edition. Added to that the 2005 film (Canadian-Icelandic) "Beowulf & Grendel" film which certainly shows quite a bit of sympathy to the supposed, misunderstood monster Grendel, the 2007 computer generated (based on real-life actors) "Beowulf", and the also 2007 live-action (if somewhat ridiculous) "Grendel".
> These films I have listed in an ascending arc of my wishing to bang my head against any available wall at their taking liberties - or the looseness in which they adhered to that at least 1,000-year-old poem. Probably serious PJ territory ...


Wow, there have been a lot of adaptations! Add to that a novel I recently read about but haven't started yet, _The Mere Wife_ by Maria Dahvana Headley, a modern re-telling of _Beowulf_ set in modern times in the suburbs of America. Headley recently published a _Beowulf_ translation as well, which, you will not be delighted to learn, begins by replacing "Hwaet!" with "Bro!" 

I certainly won't argue that every adaptation is good, and I understand your vexation with some of them. I know how appalled I was when the Disney filmmakers of the most recent _Star Wars_ trilogy turned Luke Skywalker into a cynical grump. I'm not sure if I can put my finger on what it is exactly that makes one adaptation work for me and another one not. For me, though, some do work, as translations from one form to another. I connect with them with the expectation that they will not mirror the original but rather use it as a jumping-off place, the creator of the adaptation saying "What if...?" and going from there. With some adaptations, I enjoy the creative play of the idea and discover that the "translated" form gives me new food for thought, though I may not feel as much of a connection between the original and the adaptation. With others, perhaps the ones I like best, I find the spirit, if not the exact substance, of the original in there somewhere, shining through.



Merroe said:


> TH and LotR are supposed to reflect the notes of the Red Book. So the TH part was theoretically written by Bilbo and most of the LotR part by Frodo (as requested by Bilbo) except for a small last part that was left to Sam.
> 
> If we see it from that angle, then there would be 3 narrators using the first person. As Olorgando already pointed out, this would still be impossible given the different paths the main characters were following throughout the story.
> 
> ...


These are two intriguing angles! Thanks, Merroe. I will need to look again at "Flotsam and Jetsam" and "The Last Debate." As I mentioned, I'm not saying that Tolkien should have done it this way, or that, if even possible, it would have worked nearly as well as what he actually did. I just like imagining the different possibilities.


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## Olorgando (Sep 3, 2020)

frodolives7601 said:


> I'm not sure if I can put my finger on what it is exactly that makes one adaptation work for me and another one not.


Very true, I certainly can second that. It's often more an overall impression rather than specifics that get me to growling. With PJ's fanfics it has rather been the other way around, but then my knowledge of specifics in LoTR the book is light-years ahead of my knowledge of any other book.
There was at least one other film adaptation of Beowulf, described by Wiki as follows:
"_Beowulf_ is a 1999 American *science fantasy-action film* loosely based on the Old English epic poem Beowulf. ... Unlike most film adaptations of the poem, this version is a *science-fiction/fantasy film* that, according to one film critic, "takes place in a post-apocalyptic, techno-feudal future that owes more to Mad Max than Beowulf.""
I vaguely remember having once located a DVD of this film at my favorite media outlet, but I had read some reviews about it that were less than complimentary, so I gave it a pass.


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## frodolives7601 (Sep 3, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> Very true, I certainly can second that. It's often more an overall impression rather than specifics that get me to growling. With PJ's fanfics it has rather been the other way around, but then my knowledge of specifics in LoTR the book is light-years ahead of my knowledge of any other book.
> There was at least one other film adaptation of Beowulf, described by Wiki as follows:
> "_Beowulf_ is a 1999 American *science fantasy-action film* loosely based on the Old English epic poem Beowulf. ... Unlike most film adaptations of the poem, this version is a *science-fiction/fantasy film* that, according to one film critic, "takes place in a post-apocalyptic, techno-feudal future that owes more to Mad Max than Beowulf.""
> I vaguely remember having once located a DVD of this film at my favorite media outlet, but I had read some reviews about it that were less than complimentary, so I gave it a pass.


That does indeed sound like a _Beowulf_ adaptation that roamed far afield!

We have differing views on the merits of the _LOTR_ films, but I totally understand how knowing the books in intimate detail (which I do not at this point) could lead to much frustration with the films since there are so many discrepancies. As I mentioned when introducing myself on this forum, I saw the films a couple of decades after I'd read the books, so I had forgotten quite a bit. Given that we were coming into the movies with very different experiences, it makes sense that we would have different reactions to them.

I appreciate what you've said here because you've gotten me thinking more about the whole issue of adaptations, which is interesting to ponder.


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## Olorgando (Sep 3, 2020)

frodolives7601 said:


> ...
> I appreciate what you've said here because you've gotten me thinking more about the whole issue of adaptations, which is interesting to ponder.


Well, as to book-to-film adaptations, I'm rather limited.
LoTR (I would think obviously), Beowulf (as per my above posts), and "The Godfather".
I *think* I read Mario Puzo's 1969 novel before the first film premiered (the one with Marlon Brando as Vito).
I *do* have the 2008 four-DVD boxed set _The Godfather: The Coppola Restoration_ (disc 4 was an appendix - now where did *that* come from??? 😝 ).

Oh.

From foggiest memory doth crop up Leon Uris's 1958 novel "Exodus", which I read and also saw the 1960 film directed by Otto Preminger, starring Paul Newman and a whole slew of other thespians near his caliber (and not for the first time I have gotten this film mixed up with the 1966 film "Cast a Giant Shadow", starring Kirk Douglas, John Wayne and Austrian eye candy Senta Berger - own memory is *seriously* not to be trusted!  )

Probably best to limit it to LoTR, Beowulf, and The Godfather ... 😬


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## Deleted member 12094 (Sep 3, 2020)

Call me daft... starting from #5 I notice a complete break in tread topic logic.

Am I disoriented, or what happened...?


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## Olorgando (Sep 3, 2020)

Merroe said:


> Call me daft... starting from #5 I notice a complete break in tread topic logic.
> Am I disoriented, or what happened...?


If you insist ...
"I call you daft." 😜
Merroe, Merroe ... TTF threads drifting (or occasionally whipping around tight corners, with screeching tires) off-topic is close to being the norm rather than an exception (at least the threads which I haunt - which may have to do with the issue you mention).
Actually (is my defense) the break you notice was prepared by Frodolives7601 in the third post:
"I was probably thinking of _Grendel_, the novel that retells the Beowulf story from Grendel's point of view."

Now I concede that Frodolives7601 was (is?) too young to TTF to realize the dangers of throwing in seriously JRRT OT-ing bait like "Beowulf" (or even "Grendel") into a thread where I "troll". But I counter with the "fact" that the very title of the thread assumes adaptation (I would seriously vote for "fan-fic"!). And at least the following posts have dealt with adaptation. Not strictly, or actually even loosely, dealing with the "written in First Person" opener of the thread.

As to your possibly being disoriented, maybe you need to shake some "Byzantine Empire" stuff from memory - especially because I have continued to blab fearlessly in the face of Aldarion's posts in a specific thread, the only posts I have ever read here that exceed even Alcuin's longest ones. Perhaps the "A" at the beginning of the member name should be posted as a sticky warning by mazzly somewhere prominent on the site with the warning "If you you tend to communicate in the SMS or WhatsApp format, *seriously* avoid posts by the following members ..."

My member name has the A as the second character ... 😉


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## Deleted member 12094 (Sep 3, 2020)

LOL! When you mentioned Paul Newman, that brings us to the miniseries "Empire Falls" and thus to the Byzantine empire!

This time I'm following now! 😃


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## frodolives7601 (Sep 3, 2020)

Merroe said:


> Call me daft... starting from #5 I notice a complete break in tread topic logic.
> 
> Am I disoriented, or what happened...?


True, I guess we have gotten off on a tangent (and my mention of _Grendel_ probably did contribute to that), but it's an interesting one!

However, if anyone has thoughts about particular _LOTR_ characters serving as narrators, I'd still love to hear them...


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## Olorgando (Sep 4, 2020)

frodolives7601 said:


> However, if anyone has thoughts about particular _LOTR_ characters serving as narrators, I'd still love to hear them...


I would think that for sheer time spent in Middle-earth (about 2000 years) and being a "rolling stone" (one of his names was the "Grey Pilgrim") it would have to be Gandalf. All older in M-e, like Elrond and Galadriel (and probably Thranduil) simply weren't moving about nearly as much.


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## frodolives7601 (Sep 4, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> I would think that for sheer time spent in Middle-earth (about 2000 years) and being a "rolling stone" (one of his names was the "Grey Pilgrim") it would have to be Gandalf. All older in M-e, like Elrond and Galadriel (and probably Thranduil) simply weren't moving about nearly as much.


I think his perspective would be quite interesting.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Sep 4, 2020)

Eru, writing in God-like angle is really a great challenge of literature skills XD


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## Goldilocks Gamgee (May 29, 2021)

It would switch between Frodo and Aragorn, so that we see everything that happens. Or Sam and Aragorn.


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## 1stvermont (May 29, 2021)

frodolives7601 said:


> I love novels written in the first person. So this morning, I began pondering whom I would choose as narrator if _LOTR _were written this way. My first choice would be Frodo because his character fascinates me, and I'd love to have more insights into what he was thinking and feeling at various points in his journey. My second choice would be Sam because I think his point of view might be more relatable than Frodo's; it can be hard to fully grasp what it would be like to bear the One Ring for a sustained period. My third choice would be Gandalf. I do think his point of view would be harder to relate to, but at the same time, it would be quite interesting!
> 
> How about you? Whom would you pick as the narrator, and why would you choose that character?



I would like to have it from the perspective of one of the hobbits similar to Bilbo's exsperiance. Merry or Pip would be my choice.


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## Olorgando (May 30, 2021)

Goldilocks Gamgee said:


> It would switch between Frodo and Aragorn, so that we see everything that happens. Or Sam and Aragorn.


If we accept JRRT's pretense that his LoTR is ultimately derived from the Red Book of Westmarch, then the author must be Frodo.
He had about a year and three quarters in which to do his writing after the disembodiment of Saruman and his own final departure from the Shire.
But while he would have done the writing he certainly needed input from the other members of the Fellowship for much of what happened.

But as to using him as the first person narrator, I see serious difficulties.
Starting perhaps when Frodo, Sam and Gollum reached the Black Gate, and at the latest when they started their climb up to Cirith Ungol. Frodo's mind was increasingly being forced to focus on the One Ring, so that he became an increasingly unreliable witness for things happening around him, very much so in Mordor.

Now I must say that I hardly recall any novels that I've read that were written from a First-Person perspective. Perhaps you could name some that you find to be good examples of the perspective, @frodolives7601 ?

I have only one that I could name off-the-cuff, the first part of the third novel of Arthur C. Clarke's "Rama" quadrilogy, "Garden of Rama".
Now Clarke only wrote the first novel, "Rendezvous with Rama", by himself. For "Rama II", "Garden of Rama" and "Rama Revealed", he collaborated with Gentry Lee. Whose day job was and is being a scientist and engineer at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, a very serious NASA research facility, but he also dabbled in science fiction writing, mostly with Clarke. Who said of the three Rama collaborations that Gentry Lee did the writing while he was a source of ideas.

Well, that First-Person first chapter (there are only five for a total of 593 pages) is told from the perspective of the heroine of the three collaborative novels, Nicole des Jardins Wakefield, starting just after the birth of her first child, born on that huge alien spaceship (25 miles long, 10 miles diameter - even PJ would hardly be able to top that for sheer gigantism!). I've re-read the first Rama novel, but the other three only selectively. And I arrived at a "conclusion" of sorts: a certified "rocket scientist" (btw that rocket science so fabled in some quarters is not really cutting-edge; Newtonian physics will do for most stuff), the original nerds before some guy named Bill firmly shifted the term to guys obsessed with electronic gadgets whose critical components were made of refined sand - writing a First-Person perspective of a woman? Maybe Lee is fibbing us and that chapter was really written by his wife (Wiki is silent on his marital status).
So I may only have something (only a fraction of a novel) written in the First-Person perspective by someone with very limited credentials to do that writing.
What such writing exists with a higher credibility?


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## frodolives7601 (May 30, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> If we accept JRRT's pretense that his LoTR is ultimately derived from the Red Book of Westmarch, then the author must be Frodo.
> He had about a year and three quarters in which to do his writing after the disembodiment of Saruman and his own final departure from the Shire.
> But while he would have done the writing he certainly needed input from the other members of the Fellowship for much of what happened.
> 
> ...


Yes, there are a number of novels that I consider good examples of the first-person perspective. To name a few: 

_A Thousand Acres _by Jane Smiley
_Memoirs of a Geisha _by Arthur Golden
_The Feast of Love _by Charles Baxter, in which a number of different narrators tell their stories, which turn out to be interwoven
_The Persian Boy _by Mary Renault, which contains one of the best opening lines I've come across anywhere:

"Lest anyone should suppose I am a son of nobody, sold off by some peasant father in a drought year, I may say our line is an old one, though it ends with me."

This not only stirs the reader's curiosity--one starts wondering, why does the line end with him?--but it also reveals something about the character, his pride.

I find that good first-person novels have a way of pulling the reader right into the story. Maybe it's because the author seems to have disappeared into the tale as well. There's an immediacy that I don't often find in third-person novels. If I start reading a third-person novel and feel as if I can sense the author sitting at a remote distance manipulating the characters around, I'm immediately repelled. On the other hand, some third-person novels also give one the sense that the author is standing back and letting the characters take over, and those novels I'm drawn to. Jane Smiley's _Horse Heaven_ would be one example. In general, though, I find the first-person perspective more engaging.


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## Olorgando (May 30, 2021)

Unfortunately, I draw a blank on every novel you mentioned ...


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## frodolives7601 (May 30, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> Unfortunately, I draw a blank on every novel you mentioned ...


_David Copperfield _and _Moby Dick _are other examples of first-person novels, though they aren't among my favorites.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (May 31, 2021)

Don't forget two unforgettable first-person narrators: Phillip Marlowe and Harry Flashman!


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## frodolives7601 (May 31, 2021)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Don't forget two unforgettable first-person narrators: Phillip Marlowe and Harry Flashman!


And Holden Caulfield!

Also, just in terms of literary cachet, the aforementioned _A Thousand Acres_ won the Pulitzer Prize in 1992, and first-person _The Remains of the Day _won the Booker Prize for Nobel Prize-winning author Kazuo Ishiguro in 1989. He also wrote his most recent novel, _Klara and the Sun_, in first person.


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## HALETH✒🗡 (May 21, 2022)

LOTR is an epic novel with many storylines. Writing it in the third person was the best decision. However, if I had to choose, I'd pick Eru as a narrator. He knows everything. Or it's also possible to change narrators in different chapters.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (May 22, 2022)

My first pick would certainly be Frodo. I don't see how anyone else could truly capture what was going on emotionally and physically in the story besides him. However, I couldn't have done any better than Tolkien. Third person was certainly the best way to write it. I think that if I had to choose someone though, Frodo would be my #1 option. When I read LOTR (and I love reading it) I am always looking forward to hearing from Frodo and how he is feeling emotionally especially, but I don't see how anyone could fully grasp the immense burden of the Ring even from the hands of him who bore it. It's fun to think about it though, I hadn't ever considered what it might be like if Frodo wrote it instead of Tolkien in 3rd person.
thanks
"Oft hope is borne when all is forlorn." - Legolas Thranduíl
~ Elbereth Vala Varda ~


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## Lómelindë Lindórië (May 22, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> My first pick would certainly be Frodo. I don't see how anyone else could truly capture what was going on emotionally and physically in the story besides him.


None could have declared it better!


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