# Were the Istari REALLY Maiar?



## Flammifer (Aug 6, 2003)

This may sound quite ignorant to some people but after reading the Silmarillion and obviously LOTR I've found no conclusive evidence that the Istari were Maiar, unless the answer to this is in UT or Letters or something!

I know that Gandalf's name was Olorin in the uttermost West, and that Olorin was the wisest Maiar, but due to the history in Tolkien's works of giving characters names that have been used before, could this not just be a coincedence? Also, in a very reliable source, Robert Foster's The Complete Guide to Middle-earth, it says that Olorin is not conclusively the same as Gandalf!

It says "He may have been a Maia", but is there any conclusive evidence? Surely with a character of such great importance, if Tolkien wanted his readers to know what Gandalf was he would have made it blatantly obvious?!?

I have used Gandalf as an example as he is the most well-known of the Istari and we have the most information on him, and I am assuming that all the Istari were of the same sort also.

P.S. I don't wish to sound blashpemous or anything, because personally I want Gandalf to be a Maia, albeit one of less power than Sauron, but I just wondered bout it!


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## Aulë (Aug 6, 2003)

> _Unfinished Tales: the Istari_
> We must assume that they [the Istari] were all Maiar, that is persons of the "angelic" order, though not necessarily of the same rank. The Maiar were "spirits," but capable of self-incarnation, and could take "humane" (especially Elvish) forms. Saruman is said (e.g. by Gandalf himself) to have been the chief of the Istari – that is, higher in Valinórean stature than the others. Gandalf is evidently the next in the order. Radagast is presented as a person of much less power and wisdom. Of the other two nothing is said in published work save the reference to the Five Wizards in the altercation between Gandalf and Saruman [The Two Towers III 10]. Now these Maiar were sent by the Valar at a crucial moment in the history of Middle-earth to enhance the resistance of the Elves of the West, greatly outnumbered by those of the East and South. It may be seen that they were free each to do what they could in this mission; that they were not commanded or supposed to act together as a small central body of power and wisdom; and that each had different powers and inclinations and were chosen by the Valar with this in mind.


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## Celebthôl (Aug 6, 2003)

They are, but they are not in their true forms.


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## Flammifer (Aug 6, 2003)

Wow! Thanks guys! Hmm seems that The Complete Guide to Middle-earth isn't as reliable a source as I first thought!

That is very helpful, just a thought I had really, but the evidence was in a text I hadn't read, so forgive my ignorance.


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## Celebthôl (Aug 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Flammifer _
> *That is very helpful, just a thought I had really, but the evidence was in a text I hadn't read, so forgive my ignorance. *



You are forgiven


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## BlackCaptain (Aug 6, 2003)

Also in the Valaquenta; Of Maiar, it tells how the wisest of Maiar was Olorin. . And the Valaquenta is more acurate than The Complete Guide to Middle Earth


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## Flammifer (Aug 7, 2003)

> You are forgiven



Good-o Thol! 

Oh yeah I know it says that in the Valaquenta BlackCaptain, but as I was basing my sources on a book which I thought was reliable (and obviously wasn't), it claimed that it wasn't definite that Olorin was Gandalf!


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## Gil-Galad (Aug 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by BlackCaptain _
> *Also in the Valaquenta; Of Maiar, it tells how the wisest of Maiar was Olorin. . And the Valaquenta is more acurate than The Complete Guide to Middle Earth *


Among those who were sent to ME,yes Olorin was the wisest,but among all I believe that Melian was the wisest.


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## Flammifer (Aug 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Gil-Galad _
> *Among those who were sent to ME,yes Olorin was the wisest,but among all I believe that Melian was the wisest. *



Do you really believe that? Melian was foresighted certainly, but Olorin, or Gandalf, was able to resist incredible temptations that perhaps Melian mightn't have been able to do, eg. not taking the oppurtunity to have the Ring, and resisting to join Saruman, though it did seem a wise decision at the time. He also knew very much of the mind of Sauron, and percieved his thought, knowing that it was impossible for Sauron to consider that someone would want to *destroy* the Ring. And it was Gandalf's idea to march to the Morannon, so as to turn the Eye away from Frodo, which was clearly a very wise move. These are just a few examples.


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## Inderjit S (Aug 19, 2003)

> Wisest of the Maiar was Olorin


 Valaquenta

Olorin was the wisest of all Maia, not just the Istari who were sent to M-E.


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## Beleg (Aug 19, 2003)

I won't argue with it, but I find it hard to believe that Gandalf is the wisest Maia. 
How about Eonwe and Varda's Handmaiden? And even Melian, she seemed pretty wise. Uinen also, and Este?


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## Flammifer (Aug 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Beleg_
> I won't argue with it



Nor will I. No doubt all the Maiar were wise as they are the Ainur, but Tolkien states in the Sil that Olorin/Gandalf/whatever you wanna call him was the wisest, and let's face it, I think he'd know! 

I think the reason that Olorin was considered the wisest was because he was taught pity and patience by Nienna (or something like that).


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## Ithrynluin (Aug 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Beleg _
> *I won't argue with it, but I find it hard to believe that Gandalf is the wisest Maia.
> How about Eonwe and Varda's Handmaiden? And even Melian, she seemed pretty wise. Uinen also, and Este? *



Why do you find it hard to believe that Olórin was the wisest Maia? Because of a few mistakes he made while 'wearing' a body of an old man that was imposed upon him, and thus being susceptible to weariness, hunger, making mistakes..etc?

And in the same breath you mention Eönwë, who made the 'minor' error of letting a certain Maia roam freely upon Middle Earth. Besides, Eönwë never struck me as an especially wise Maia, just a great warrior, and I believe many Maiar are wiser than him. 

Ilmarë? What do we ever hear of this hand-maiden of Varda that would make you give her the edge over Olórin, wisdom-wise? No way Jose! That's what I say.  

Uinen and Melian? I'm sure they're among the wisest Maiar, but if the Sil says Olórin is the wisest, that's what we should take as fact. It's not like it's an unreasonable statement.

And Estë is a Vala, which does not automatically mean that she is wiser than Olórin. Actually, I'm quite certain that he was wiser than quite a few of the Valar.


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## Lantarion (Aug 20, 2003)

I concur with ithryn. 
And about the COmplete Guide: I think there has been a reprint of it; the older version which you have (and which I have too ) does not take into account the 'new' information from the HoME series and UT, so I assume the newer book does.


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## Beleg (Aug 20, 2003)

As I said before, I wont argue with it because Intruth I don't think it is wrong. It is just based on some personal beliefs.  
Or grievences, you might say.


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## Ithrynluin (Aug 20, 2003)

Grievances? What has Gandalf done to *you*? Has he put the fear of fire on you, just like he did with Gollum? 

But seriously Beleg, I'd like to hear _exactly_ what you have to say, if you don't mind saying it.


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## Flammifer (Aug 21, 2003)

LOL ithrynluin

Yeeeeees what grievances has old Gandy caused you? He's such an awesome character! Everyone loves him 'cept for Gollum!


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