# The Valars and their Maiars



## Pantalaimon (Mar 12, 2006)

Don't know if this has been discussed before, if it has, just combine it there, if no, well, we just noticed the great influence the Valars had to the Maiars under them:
Nienna - Olorin (Gandalf)
Oromë - Pallando ; Alatar
Aulë - Curume (Saruman)
Yavanah - Radagast
Nienna taught pity and endurance, and Gandalf is the personifcation of pity, showing Gollum so much pity and influencing Frodo to do the same.
Yavannah also called the 'Giver of Fruits', was a Vala whose province was all growing things upon the earth and sure enough it was the fall of Radagast as he was corrupted by nature. 
Aulë was the builder and inventor of the Valar, and as we know, Saruman loves to invent things. Aulë was also able to invent an entire race -- the Dwarves --- so it's little wonder why Saruman had a thing for making his own army.
Oromë is the Hunstman of the Valar, it is said that he rode the forests of Middle Earth hunting -- However, Pallando and Alatar were discussed very little in the books, we can assume that the desire to wander in Middle Eart came from the influence of Oromë who wandered Middle Earth as well.
Was this an accurate observation, or did we miss something?


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## Annaheru (Mar 12, 2006)

Actually, it isn't the influence of the Valar, rather a reflection of the maia's own nature. The maiar were Ainu just like the Valar, and the traits you mention would be inherent. 
Yes, they could learn from their greater kin (like Olorin from Nienna), but Osse couldn't have the same interest in earth as a maia of Aule, any more than Ulmo could replace Aule.


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## YayGollum (Mar 13, 2006)

Hm. I am thinking that I am remembering something telling me that the evil torturer Gandalf was a Maiar type thing under the Mandos dude. Does any book ever actually inform that he was one of Nienna's? Maybe, and I just remember some alternate idea of this Tolkien dude's from one of those History Of Middle Earth books? oh well. Anyways, Sauron was also under Aule. Melian was under Este. Osse and Uinen were Ulmo's type. There are probably plenty of lesser known types. Eonwe for the spirit of sock puppet, Manwe.


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## Thorondor_ (Mar 13, 2006)

> Does any book ever actually inform that he was one of Nienna's?


It is hinted in the Silmarillion:


Of the Maiar said:


> Wisest of the Maiar was Olorin. He too dwelt in Lorien, but his ways took him often to the house of Nienna, and of her he learned pity and patience.


but in Unfinnished Tales, the Istari, he is chosen by and related to Manwe:


> There are here also some rough tables relating the names of the Istari to the names of the Valar: Olorin to Manwe and Varda, Curumo to Aule, Aiwendil to Yavanna, Alatar to Orome, and Pallando also to Orome (but this replaces Pallando to Mandos and Nienna).


In an earlier variant, he was "a counsellor of Irmo" though.


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## Arvedui (Mar 13, 2006)

Hmm,
I personally think that the Maiar weren't so much influenced by any particular Vala, as thay each responded to one as a consequence of their personality.
Just as the Valar, the Maiar came from the thoughts of Ilúvatar, and I think that the reason that for instance Olorin spent much time with Nienna was that she was closest to him in personality. and that would also go for the other Maiar.


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## Ingwë (Mar 27, 2006)

My thoughts are close to Arvedui’s. 
I think that the Maiar aren’t influenced by the Valar. Each Maia refers to a particular Vala but the lesser spirits aren’t influenced by the higher ones. They are just like their big brothers (or sisters) but they have lesser powers. 
Yavanna is the mother of the plants and animals and her Maiar love these creatures. They are born with that love and they just find the greater spirit and they just bind together.


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## Hobbit-GalRosie (Feb 7, 2007)

Very interesting point! I think it's likely that the Maiar simply follow (indeed, likely followed into Arda) the person to whom they are naturally most similar than that the Vala has some great influence over them, but a significant observation in any case.

Ah, yes, the "parentage" of various Maiar, another topic that could end up being debated unto all eternity.  How I love those.

And just a quick note, Valar and Maiar are already plural, so there's no need for those s's, hehe.


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## Varokhâr (Feb 7, 2007)

Hobbit-GalRosie said:


> Very interesting point! I think it's likely that the Maiar simply follow (indeed, likely followed into Arda) the person to whom they are naturally most similar than that the Vala has some great influence over them, but a significant observation in any case.



I agree; each Maiar gravitated towards the Valar who was most like them, similar as to how many Pagan people graviate towards the gods who are most like them in disposition and demeanor.


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## Grond (Apr 20, 2007)

Ingwë said:


> My thoughts are close to Arvedui’s.
> I think that the Maiar aren’t influenced by the Valar. Each Maia refers to a particular Vala but the lesser spirits aren’t influenced by the higher ones. They are just like their big brothers (or sisters) but they have lesser powers.
> Yavanna is the mother of the plants and animals and her Maiar love these creatures. They are born with that love and they just find the greater spirit and they just bind together.


LOL!!

First the terms. Vala and Maia are singular. Valar and Maiar are plural terms. There are no such terms and Valars and Maiars.

To begin with, born is an interesting term since the Ainur weren't really born in the typical meaning of the word. They were indeed created by Eru's very thoughts. Eru then propounded themes of music to them and they sang each alone or in small groups because each only understand the themes of music which were related to the part of Eru's mind from which each of them was created. 

This indicates (from Tolkien's writings in the Ainulindale) that each Ainur's *character* was also directly related to the part of Eru's mind from which they were sprung.

As they sang together and begin to share the music each became more and more aware of Eru's grand theme and each grew more understanding of the other Ainur's "personalities and strengths".

Then Eru called all of the Ainur together and tasked them in making the Great Music. For a while, all was fine as each group (with its own strengths and understanding of their particular part of Eru's thought) harmonized with each other and begin to weave the fabric of Eru's grand design.

But, alas, we know that Melkor started the discord and all Hell broke loose... literally. 

Now to my point concerning this thread (you had to have the history above to follow my logic).

Ainur = angelic beings without "earthly form or ramant"
Vala = ainur who took on earthly ramant and abandoned the home of Eru for the Middle-earth created by the music.
Maia = ainur who did the same but who were significantly less powerful than the Vala.

Finally my point:
The Ainur's specific expertise in any earthly pursuit (Yavanna/Earth Mother, Varda/Sky Spirit, etc.) was predetermined by Eru and was dictated by and depended upon which part of the "mind of Eru" from which they sprang. There were likely many Ainur who were akin to Aule but who didn't descend into Valinor. 

Finally my final point.
The Valar's and Maiar's personalities, traits, strengths and weaknesses were all predetermined by Eru. The Valar were the leaders of those specific traits in Middle-earth and the Maiar were their helpers/assistants/followers.

There is no doubt that the Maiar were/are influenced by the Valar. Gorthaur/Sauron and Curumo/Saruman were both Maia of Aule in the beginning and both exuded their "Aule traits" throughout their works on Middle-earth. Sauron first with the Smiths of Ost-in-Edhel and later with his own work with the One Ring and Saruman with his machinations in Orthanc and his creation of his own Ring.

Cheers,

grond


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## Eledhwen (Apr 21, 2007)

What was Tolkien's point, do you think, in having the blacksmiths be the ones corrupted to evil? Melkor was the Ainu who turned to evil, but Aulë was the one who went off and made his own 'children'.

Blacksmiths hold a special significance in folk lore, with a tendency to being fey. An internet query threw up this article, written in 1917 (and you thought computers were recent!) and this, which might offer a few clues as to where Tolkien's ideas of blacksmiths came from, and the ones mentioned were all volatile or easily corrupted. (Tubal Cain, mentioned in the article, is from Genesis 4.22).

This is more than a passing interest to me. My dad was a coppersmith before the army got him, and my husband's dad was a blacksmith.


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