# The dead Nazgûl and the Realm of Shadows



## Ingwë (Aug 24, 2005)

Here is another thread about the Nazgûl  I hope you'll like it  

The Nazgûl became shadows under the great Shadow. They lost their bodies and became spirits. In the thread The Nazgûl: mortal or immortal we came to a conclusion that the Nazgûl aren't immortal, their life just continues. But it continues in the World of the Shadow. They exist in the World of the living creatures and they scare the thing near them but does it mean that they're dead while they are in the World of the Shadows. I mean did they die when they became shadows? Their life just continues but what life is that... That is not a life but just an existence. 

And something else: we know that the time in Valinor passes slower that the time in MIddle earth (as far as I know one V.Y. is 10 years in Me). What about the time in the World of the Shadows? What is the 'speed' of the time there?


----------



## Greenwood (Aug 24, 2005)

*Re: The dead Nazgûl*

The Nazgul did not lose their bodies. They are just invisible, not gone. If the Witch-king had no body how could he be stabbed by Merry and Eowyn? Why would the Nazgul need horses to carry them if they have no bodies?


----------



## Aglarband (Aug 25, 2005)

*Re: The dead Nazgûl*

Correct me if I am wrong, but Gandalf says that the cloaks give shap to the Nazgul, since they are just "wraiths" if you take my meaning. I think their bodies are in the shadow realm, (since they have their rings), but they are still in the real world. For example, when Bilbo hits a Goblin in The Hobbit, or when Frodo is stabbed with the Ring on when he is at Weathertop. They have become so controlled by their rings that they are completely consumed. Gollum was Hobbit like, so he could stand having his for hundereds of years. However, the Nine are worn by men, and they are easily corrupted, IE, Boromir and Isildur. So they quickly became wraiths.


----------



## Ingwë (Aug 25, 2005)

*Re: The dead Nazgûl*



> Correct me if I am wrong, but Gandalf says that the cloaks give shap to the Nazgul, since they are just "wraiths" if you take my meaning. I think their bodies are in the shadow realm, (since they have their rings), but they are still in the real world.





> The Nazgul did not lose their bodies. They are just invisible, not gone. If the Witch-king had no body how could he be stabbed by Merry and Eowyn


As far as I remember the cload gives a shape to the Nazgûl but they must have a form because the cloak will fall on the ground  Yet they live in the World of Shadows. Their bodies exist in that world but that bodies aren't consistent. They are spirits. They don't lose their bodies but they aren't material as the bodies of the other living creatures. 
And about the Witch-king... the body exists though it may not be visible. I mean the Nazgûl walk on the earth but the living creatures don't see them. The Ringwraiths scare the creatures around but they are *not *visible. frodo saw the Ulairi when he put on the One Ring. The other just see their cloaks. So Merry pierced the Nazgûl because she saw the cloak and so she knew where is the spirit. And with that blade he killed the Witch king


----------



## Greenwood (Aug 25, 2005)

*Re: The dead Nazgûl*

The Nazgul still have bodies, it is just that those bodies are no longer visible in the real world. (An old thread I started years ago about Nazgul invisibility might be of interest. It can be found here.)

BTW, Merry didn't kill the Witch-king, Eowyn did. That is what we have been discussing here and here.


----------



## Ingwë (Aug 30, 2005)

I asked Ithy to edit the thread.  



> The Nazgul still have bodies, it is just that those bodies are no longer visible in the real world.


 But *they do live* in the Realm of Shadows:


> *Silmarilion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third age*
> And one by one, sooner or later, according to their native strength and to the good or evil of their wills in the beginning, they fell under the thraldom of the ring that they bore and under the domination of the One, which was Sauron's. And they became for ever invisible save to him that wore the Ruling Ring, and they entered into the *realm* of shadows. The Nazgul were they, the Ringwraiths, the Enemy's most terrible servants; darkness went with them, and they cried with the voices of death.


So about that Realm. The Nazgûl are invisible and they could control their invisibility before they had become Ring wraiths: _They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men;. _
But what is that World of Shadow? It is related to the visible world but how? And what about the _time_ there?


----------



## Thorondor_ (Sep 7, 2005)

> But what is that World of Shadow? It is related to the visible world but how? And what about the _time_ there?


Imo, the world of shadow is the world of the fea, which is superimposed on ours. As Gandalf tells Frodo:


> And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power


I don't think that the elves live at once here and in Aman _phisically _but that they also have access (or, well, "see") both worlds are once; to make a parallel with "real-world" ocultism, they perceive a larger range of vibrations.


----------



## Grond (Sep 7, 2005)

Ingwë said:


> I asked Ithy to edit the thread.
> 
> But *they do live* in the Realm of Shadows:
> So about that Realm. The Nazgûl are invisible and they could control their invisibility before they had become Ring wraiths: _They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men;. _


This quote doesn't mean that they had any more control of their invisibility than, say Frodo or Bilbo. Bilbo or Frodo could walk, if they would, in the worlds invisible to mortal men as well. They did it by putting on the Ring. This could also have been true for the Nazgul until they were consumed by their Rings. Don't forget that both Bilbo and Frodo "began to fade" near the end of their possession of the Ring. (Quotes are all throughout the books to support this).


also quoted by Ingwë said:


> But what is that World of Shadow? It is related to the visible world but how? And what about the _time_ there?


This subject has been discussed at length here! and here!. There is also another one here! The last one takes a lot of fortitude to wade through as it has constant arguments and insults from the thread starter. I contributed to the discord as well. 

Check those three threads out... they answer a lot of these questions.

Cheers,

grond


----------



## Ingwë (Sep 8, 2005)

Indeed 'Old threads - great topics' and I have always said that one forum is good if it has good threads in the archives  .


> Don't forget that both Bilbo and Frodo "began to fade" near the end of their possession of the Ring.


Yeah... But it is interesting to me why Frodo began to fade. He wielded the One Ring shorter than Bilbo...

And my thoughts about the Realm of Shadows... It is not physically. The Nazgûl still live in Middle earth but they see unseen things. That Realm is related to Middle earth but in other form. I suppose that the time passed as in the real world - Middle earth. We don't hints about that.... but they still exist in the Middle earth though invisible.


----------



## ingolmo (Sep 13, 2005)

I think that without the control and the influence of the One Ring, they would become mortal, and in the physical form. But it is only their Rings and the One Ring's influence that keeps them as shadows; as wraiths. They bind them to the land of Shadows. Their cloaks are made to make them seem as if they have a physical structure. That is what the Wraiths are phyically present in the physical world, but otherwise present in the shadow world. The World of Shadows is like hell, where the Wraith's shadows stay no matter where they are alive or dead. Without the Rings, the Wraiths will disappear from the physical form, but will stay in the World of Shadows.


----------



## Ithrynluin (Sep 13, 2005)

Grond said:


> Don't forget that both Bilbo and Frodo "began to fade" near the end of their possession of the Ring. (Quotes are all throughout the books to support this).



Did they now? I don't seem to recall that at all. Can you provide the quotes? 

Gollum held the One for several centuries. I doubt Bilbo and Frodo would have started to fade after having owned the ring for mere decades. Started to feel some negative characteristic of the ring weighing down upon them? Sure, but not fade.


----------



## Alcuin (Sep 13, 2005)

From “The Shadow of the Past” in FotR, Gandalf’s discussion of Gollum with Frodo:


> ‘But that, of course, would only make the evil part of him angrier in the end -- unless it could be conquered. Unless it could be cured.’ Gandalf sighed. ‘Alas! there is little hope of that for him. Yet not no hope. No, not though he possessed the Ring so long, almost as far back as he can remember. For it was long since he had worn it much: in the black darkness it was seldom needed. *Certainly he had never “faded”.* He is thin and tough still. But the thing was eating up his mind, of course, and the torment had become almost unbearable.


----------



## Erestor Arcamen (Oct 3, 2005)

I think maybe that the Nazgul's spirits were, as long as they served Sauron and had their nine rings, their spirits were stuck in Middle Earth, slaves to the Dark Lord, unable to flee to that which the fate of all men go, wherever that is, which is known to Illuvatar and Mandos (i think Mandos knows) alone. So yeah i just amde that sound really poetic or somethin haha but thats what I feel, their spirits were unable to leave Middle Earth. 

IT says somewhere in the book that they fell one by one, so maybe its like, when they died, their spirts left their bodies (hence they're invisible except for thier clothes) and was clothed in the black robes and armor of Sauron.


----------

