# oldest living thing in Middle Earth



## WitchKing (Apr 25, 2020)

I was reading a VERY old thread where this question was asked and answers proposed, but I wanted to throw in my two cents (since, in my opinion, there still is room for clarification).

The answers in the old thread seemed to center/hinge on "living" and "creature". My opinion is that everything in Middle Earth was ultimately created.
A dictionary definition of "creature" is anything (animate or inanimate) that has been created.

The posts from the old thread argued over whether there were inconsistencies in Tolkien's writings on this topic ie; Tom Bombadil vs Treebeard.

I would very much like to get some fresh input on this topic.

I have included a bit from the 4/21/02 thread concerning the question of what was the oldest living thing in Middle Earth. See attachment


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## grendel (Apr 25, 2020)

I had noticed that too, about Treebeard and Bombadil. Tolkien described both of them as "oldest". Perhaps it is an indication - maybe subconsciously by the writer - that Bombadil was not a "living creature" in the same sense as animals and plants, or Men, Dwarves or Elves. Possibly Maia, or Ainu, or even an avatar of Eru himself (my own pet theory)?


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## Alice (Apr 26, 2020)

I always thought that the oldest beings are maiar


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## Alcuin (Apr 27, 2020)

The oldest speaking creature remaining in Middle-earth that is _not_ a Maia (or kindred creature) appears to be Treebeard. Gandalf describes him in this way to Théoden, and Celeborn addresses him in this fashion. The Ents seem to have awoken at the same time or shortly after the Elves awoke at Cuiviénen.

Bombadil is indeed older than Treebeard, but he and Goldberry seem to be of a different order. They appear (to me, at least: the nature of Tom Bombadil is widely debated and has been for decades; Tolkien himself addressed readers’ questions about Bombadil, repeatedly declining to be specific) to be Maiar or akin to Maiar. If that’s true, then they existed since the Ainulindalë, the Song of Ainur, before the creation of Arda, the physical world. Bombadil describes himself (in drafts of _Fellowship_) as “Ab-original”, having been in that part of the world he inhabited since its inception. And near the end of _Return of the King_, Gandalf tells Frodo and his companions that he is leaving them to visit Bombadil, who has been “a moss-gatherer”, while Gandalf has been “a stone doomed to rolling. But now my rolling days are over, and we shall have much to say to one another.” Whatever Tolkien intended Bombadil to be, he seems most like a Maia, and Gandalf, emissary of the Valar having recently been face-to-face with Eru following his death upon Zirakzigil, might have had some message to convey; but in any case, Gandalf and Bombadil were in accord of some sort.

All of the Ainur, both Valar and Maiar, were spirit-beings older than Arda, but spirits that have taken physical forms in anticipation of the Children of Eru, Elves and Men. The oldest _Elf_ remaining in Middle-earth of which we are informed is Círdan the Shipwright, who was himself from Cuiviénen. The four original Elf-kings – Ingwe of the Vanyar, Finwë of the Noldor, and Elwë (Elu Thingol) and his brother Olwë of the Teleri (who called themselves Sindar in Middle-earth) – were probably not the eldest of their three clans, but rather four emissaries originally sent by the clans to Valinor with Oromë the Vala after he discovered the Elves at Cuiviénen; in fact, there were several generations of Elves even then already descended from those who first awoke, with kinships among families already established.

Christopher Tolkien noted that his father was _given to superlatives_ (I believe I am quoting him correctly, but have not confirmed it specifically), describing this person or that as “greatest”, “oldest”, and so forth. Some degree of discretion might be in order regarding Tolkien’s use of superlatives, as well as consideration of the context in which the they are offered.


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## Olorgando (Apr 27, 2020)

'[In the Ainulindalë Ilúvatar said:] "... Therefore I say: _Eä!_ Let these things Be! And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be; and those of you that will may go down into it" And suddenly the Ainur saw afar off a light, as it were a cloud with a living heart of flame; and they knew that this was no vision only, but that Ilúvatar had made a new thing: Eä, the World that Is.
Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur … others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Ilúvatar and descended into it.'

Still plenty to do, as is shown in the text immediately following. They sort of came in at an early stage of the music, and had to do what they had sung before (and they had not been shown all of the *vision* of the music by Ilúvatar, shown after the music proper, and have not seen nearly all of the history of Eä.) Now it is hard to imagine Yavanna's _kelvar _and _olvar _surviving the tumults in the rest of the Ainulindalë, what with Morgoth going around like a monstrous three-year old swatting everyone else's sand-castles with his plastic shovel. But perhaps some did. And could there not also have been other beings similar, which were created with Eä and were in it at its inception? Melkor's monsters do come to mind more readily, among whom could have been the like of Ungoliant, the Watcher in the Water, the nameless things gnawing the roots of the mountains - and perhaps Bombadil and others like him. These the would actually be older *in* Eä than even the Valar and Maiar! Just a thought, to try for an explanation for something that Alcuin mentions above, JRRT's perhaps occasionally careless use of superlatives … _(hmmm - is some part of the Gaffer a highly-disguised self-portrait of a part of JRRT's own character?)_


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## TrackerOrc (May 1, 2020)

I've always thought of Treebeard as the oldest living thing in Middle-earth, with the emphasis definitely being on Middle-earth itself. I've never taken to Bombadil as a character, and I think part of the reason for that is his being rather unsubstantial, as it were. Treebeard, as is said in the novel _is_ Fangorn - he is the Ent, and he is the forest as well, if you like. You can't get more 'grounded' in the world than that! Bombadil seems to just float around doing not much of anything for however long he has been around; I know he plays a part in the rescue of the Hobbits in the early part of the story, but apart from that his history is rather on the thin side?


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## Red Leaf (May 1, 2020)

There'll be pitchforks....

I take the same view, Treebeard is a much more substantial character than Bombadil, and whatever his nature or power may be, Bombadil doesn't seem to have actually used it against the Enemy when the Enemy has arrived on his doorstep.


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## Elthir (May 2, 2020)

Just adding to the mix: in an unpublished draft letter of late 1968, now in a private collection, Tolkien wrote: "_Eldest_ was the courtesy title of Treebeard as the oldest surviving Ent. The Ents claimed to be the oldest "speaking people" after the Elves [illegible] until taught the art of speech by the Elves...They were therefore placed after the dwarves in the Old List...since Dwarves had the power of speech from their awaking." 

The Lord of the Rings, A Reader’s Companion, Hammond and Scull, page 382 Treebeard: Entry 464 The Ent


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