# Ents roused in the Second Age...by whom?



## Ithrynluin (Aug 18, 2003)

> _The Two Towers; Treebeard_
> 'Quickly?' said Treebeard. 'Hoom! Yes, indeed. Quicker than I expected. Indeed I have not seen them roused like this for many an age. We Ents do not like being roused; and we never are roused unless it is clear to us that our trees and our lives are in great danger. That has not happened in this Forest since the wars of Sauron and the Men of the Sea.



Clearly there was tumult and war in Fangorn in the Second Age. But who caused it? I know everyone would of course say Sauron, because that is the most logical solution. But why would Sauron attack Fangorn when he had much more imminent threats to deal with, like Lindon, Gondor, Arnor, Rivendell, Lorien,... (and these threats defeated him in the end too!).

And then we have the Men of Numenor. Many of their rulers weren't too conscientious and recklessly chopped down huge areas of trees in Eriador. Could it be that they dared touch Fangorn at one time?

And if neither Sauron nor the Numenoreans touched the woods individually, did their war at some stage lead them into Fangorn? If so why?

Just another thread for speculation!


----------



## Meselyn (Aug 18, 2003)

Well it seems like you are asking two questions. I think that Saruman aroused them by having his orcs destroy all the trees around Orthanc and the fact that Orthanc is near Fangorn!. Two I think that the ents were driven into fangorn with the building. Hmm it seems one event triggers another.


----------



## Inderjit S (Aug 18, 2003)

> aroused them by having his orcs destroy all the trees around Orthanc



stange things arouse ents if they were aroused by that.  

Besides Ivan was asking about the S.A  maybe the building of Orthanc, or re-shaping of it, roused them?


----------



## Ithrynluin (Aug 18, 2003)

Meselyn, this thread is about the Second Age, when the Numenoreans vied with Sauron for domination. Saruman only comes into the stories in the Third Age.


----------



## Meselyn (Aug 18, 2003)

I gotta pay more attention to the topic name.


----------



## Eriol (Aug 18, 2003)

I think it possible that the Ents and the Númenóreans had a few skirmishes. In the 2nd Age, presumably, "a squirrel could go from Dunland to the Old Forest", and Fangorn was just the eastern outpost of that huge forest. "This forest" in Treebeard's words can mean the big primeval forest. 

If we assume (as I always did, but without extremely firm grounds, only some hints here and there) that the deforestation of Eriador was a result of Númenórean activity for ship-building (something that also happened in the Mediterreanean with Romans, by the way), then we can easily imagine a few brushes between Men and Ents.

Would this mean "an arousal" of the Ents, in the same scale of what happened in the War of the Ring? I don't think so. I think a major event must have triggered this arousal. Perhaps Sauron was destroying trees to prevent Númenóreans from using them. This is the kind of thing that would enrage Ents more easily, trees being destroyed for no apparent reason.

A small question just appeared in my mind -- I always assumed that the Númenóreans controlled only the havens, with the inland regions being under Sauron's control, in the 2nd age; and why wouldn't Sauron control these regions? Yet, Númenórean control must have been extended at least up to Orthanc, since this was a mighty fortress of them. 

Does anyone know _why_ Orthanc was built? I mean, it is clearly a strategic location, but it means that the war borders were close by, right?

Does anyone know what a "war map" in the late 2nd age would look like? Dividing Eriador, Rhovanion and such between the two powers, with a few neutral areas?

This has been one of my unanswered questions for a long time... how was the balance of power, geographically, in the 2nd Age; and how was the distribution of forests.


----------



## Beleg (Aug 18, 2003)

The only battle inland enough to effect Fangorn forest and outskirts in the second age between The Men of the Sea and Sauron that I can recall is the later part of the War between elves and Sauron. Numenorean's landed an army at Lond Daer, In Minihirath, and I believe in Enedwaith they attacked Sauron's army from rear and there was fighting in Northern Enedwaith. Perhaps in those days Fangorn forest spread north enough that it felt endangered by that battle?



> A small question just appeared in my mind -- I always assumed that the Númenóreans controlled only the havens, with the inland regions being under Sauron's control, in the 2nd age; and why wouldn't Sauron control these regions? Yet, Númenórean control must have been extended at least up to Orthanc, since this was a mighty fortress of them.



Numenoreans primarily controlled the Havens and the adjacent area. 
The faithful's had havens at Pelagir, that is pretty South [In those days the Bay of Belfalas was bigger and Pelagir was much close to the sea then in the Third age] and Aldarion built a haven at Lond Daer that is on Gwathlo, at the borders of Minhiriath and Enedwaith. 
The rule of Gil-galad was offically only limited to the Area west of Lindon. There were also native men in Eriador, who met with the people of Aldarion's grandfather ship. They perhaps lived in the Downs or around Lake Evendium. 
In the south was the realm of Eregion just at the level of Tharbad. I believe that it was North of Dunland. Orthanc I believe was build much later, after the coming of Elendil and Co, since I dont know of any Numenorean activity this Inland before the fall. 
At a point of Time, before the Arival of the Numenorean Armada, the rule of Sauron stretched too the borders of Lune, but he was so soundly defeated in the forthcoming battle that he barely reached Mordor accompanied by a body guard only. 

Therefore at the time of the fall, I believe this would be the political scenario. 

Eriador: Virtually desolate, with the refuge of Rivendell in the west and elvish population beyond Lune. 

Lond Daer: Inhabitted by few faithful families. 

Pelagir and the adjacent areas: Faithfuls. 

In the Vales of the White Mountain: The people of the black host, Druedain's with some Dunlanders also. That area, I believe at that time would be heavily influenced by Sauron so the living situations might be difficult for the Drugs. 
Calendhorn would, due to its vasts grasslands would be inhabitted by a few people, and it is more then probable that they would be under Sauron's sway. this would be threat for Fangorn. 

Mordor and the East Lands: Naturally Sauron dominated with east governed by him and his vassals. [Depending whether you place the coming of the Istari in Second age or not, the Blue Wizards might have initiated some cults? But this is extreme speculation]. 

Below Umbar, the area would be infested with Black Numenoreans since Black Numenoreans liked to make their abodes away in the South. 




> Does anyone know what a "war map" in the late 2nd age would look like? Dividing Eriador, Rhovanion and such between the two powers, with a few neutral areas?



Eriador would be desolate with Elvish area in the Northwest and small dots along the coast and in Rivendell. 
Rhovianon would have the realm of Loriland, with Dwarves occupying strongholds in the Mountains, perhaps the ancestors of Hillmen mentioned in the third age occupying northern course of Anduin. A few mixed clans [Relatives of the first age tribes of Hador and Beor] would also be occupying that area. Silvan elves in Mirkwood, with the area east of Carnen probably an easterling realm. 
Therefore I believe Eriador and Rhovianon would be allied areas. While Inland Gondor, Mordor, the East, The south being areas dominated by Sauron [that is just pre-fall]. 
The only totally Neutral area I could think of is Fordwaith. 



> This has been one of my unanswered questions for a long time... how was the balance of power, geographically, in the 2nd Age; and how was the distribution of forests.



To sum it up in one sentence, lets say in S.A 2500, North Western Eriador, an Elvish realm, with Numenorean population growing along the coast as we move southward. We would have Dwarvish colonies in the Misty Mountains with Moria being the chief and moving east we would find the Silvan realm of Mirkwood and heavinly influenced by Sindarin realm of Loriland in the forest [On both sides of Anduin] of Lorien. Inland Gondor would be an area dominated by Mannish tribes of Dunelanding, eastern or Drug origin with the influence of Sauron gaining strength. They would also be troubled by the Lordliship of Numenoreans. Inland Harad, Khand and Eastern areas along with Mordor would be Sauron occupied. 

I believe that in the War of the Elves and Sauron much of the forests that covered Eriador were destroyed, since Sauron's force was pretty keen upon burning, brandshing and cutting. I believe that Western Minhirath and area west would still be thickly forested, with Northern Enedwaith and Minhariath laid bare. In Rhovanion the forests of Lorien would stretch on both sides of the river [This is speculation] with Mirkwood situated North. 
Fangorn would now be left Isolated, since much of Dunland was rocky and area west was heavy battled upon. 
This I guess would have worried Fangorn. 



The deforestation of Eriador was a result of the War between Elves and Sauron as well as the Numenorean tree-cutting. 

Orthanc I believe was built as the Northern Outpost of Gondorian realm, with partly the purpose of keeping eye upon the somewhat hostile clans of Dunland. It was also built perhaps so that the Gondorian kings could sometimes study stars from its high pinnacles. 

I don't believe that until the great Invasion Numenoreans had any substantial fights with Sauron's followers.


----------



## Eriol (Aug 18, 2003)

Very thorough, Beleg.



Minor questions: How sure are you that Orthanc was built by Elendil & Co. instead of earlier Numenóreans?

What about the Dunlendings? They dwelt in Southern Eriador. Were they neutral? 

The answers to these would have a weight on my guess about the "ent arousal" in 2nd age.

Perhaps the Ents had a hand in destroying Sauron's invading army so utterly. They did a similar thing with the Dwarves that sacked Doriath -- waited in the forests to decimate the forces. If we assume that Dunland was forested, the retreat route of Sauron's armies would go through Ent-controlled territory. They couldn't get the big guy, though, or any Ring...


----------



## Meselyn (Aug 18, 2003)

yeah i've been wondering that. Although im not brave enough to answer.


----------



## Beleg (Aug 18, 2003)

> How sure are you that Orthanc was built by Elendil & Co. instead of earlier Numenóreans?



I base my opinion onto this, 



> . The chief city of this southern realm was Osgiliath, through the midst of which the Great River flowed; and the Númenóreans built there a great bridge, upon which there were towers and houses of stone wonderful to behold, and tall ships came up out of the sea to the quays of the city. Other strong places they built also upon either hand: Minas Ithil, the Tower of the Rising Moon, eastward upon a shoulder of the Mountains of Shadow as a threat to Mordor; and to the westward Minas Anor, the Tower of the Setting Sun, at the feet of Mount Mindolluin, as a shield against the wild men of the dales. In Minas Ithil was the house of Isildur, and in Minas Anor the house of Anárion, but they shared the realm between them and their thrones were set side by side in the Great Hall of Osgiliath.* These were the chief dwellings of the Númenóreans in Gondor, but other works marvellous and strong they built in the land in the days of their power, at the Argonath, and at Aglarond, and at Erech; and in the circle of Angrenost, which Men called Isengard, they made the Pinnacle of Orthanc of unbreakable stone.*



Edit: A bloomin'problem with Xp hadnt allowed me to post in full. 

Right, first of all there was only one time when Numenoreans were in power, the first millinieum after the defeat of Sauron.
Also since It is mentioned alongside Argonath, which was definately built after a fall, I believe that it belongs to the same time period, that is post-fall, at the time when the Gondorian Kingdom was established.
Sure this is not a hard fast fact but I can't for one moment find a reason as to why Orthanc should have been build before the fall. 
The Numenoreans were certainly not fond of coming this inland, and they certainly had no interest in occupying this area. Perhaps they would have been interested in the wood of Fangorn, but to build a tower for this purpose seems ridiculus. 
They couldn't have build the tower to keep watch, since they had no need of doing so, as their dwellings were on the coastland. 
Then why build the tower and develop the circle of Angerost? 
But the Gondorians had a better reason. It marked the Northern end of their teritory. The circle of Angerost was just the thing that was needed to watch over the threat that the Hostile Dunelanding might possess against Gondor. 



> What about the Dunlendings? They dwelt in Southern Eriador. Were they neutral?
> 
> The answers to these would have a weight on my guess about the "ent arousal" in 2nd age.
> 
> Perhaps the Ents had a hand in destroying Sauron's invading army so utterly. They did a similar thing with the Dwarves that sacked Doriath -- waited in the forests to decimate the forces. If we assume that Dunland was forested, the retreat route of Sauron's armies would go through Ent-controlled territory. They couldn't get the big guy, though, or any Ring...



I believe that the Dunelandings were in awe of the tall Sea Kings. They certianly didn't meddle with the Numenoreans who worked in the forests for the cutting of Timber, unless they found some stray Numenorean. I don't believe that they alone, would pose a threat for the Numenoreans, but being coaxed and backed by some greater power [as was the case at the time of war of the ring] they could have proved to be a threat. 
But I myself am not sure about the population of Dunland in the second age. Perhaps someone better versed in this matter would enlighten us?

As for Dunland being forested, 



> . All Isengard must be emptied; and Saruman has armed the wild hillmen and herd-folk of Dunland beyond the rivers, and these also he loosed upon us.





> Brazen trumpets sounded. The enemy surged forward, some against the Deeping Wall, other towards the causeway and the ramp that led up to the Hornburg-gates. There the hugest Orcs were mustered, and the wild men of the Dunland fells.






> Next day they went on into northern Dunland, where no men now dwelt, though it was a green and pleasant country



I guess at the the of War of the Ring, Dunland could have been a green hilly area.


----------



## Eriol (Aug 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Meselyn _
> *wow that's a good opinion! *



Yeah, Beleg is like that...



I'm half-convinced about Orthanc. I find it odd that the building of Orthanc is not mentioned in the Tale of Years in the third Age while the Argonath are (at least, the King who built them is mentioned in the Appendices -- Rómendacil if I'm not mistaken).

The same goes for Helm's Deep, which I assume was built at the same period as Orthanc.

I thought the two fortresses could have been built earlier to guard the highly strategical Pass of Calenardhon; to prevent another incursion of Sauron into Eriador. But your quote is very definite, listing Orthanc and Aglarond _after_ the Argonath.

Change that "half-convinced" to convinced, then.



Dunland in the 2nd Age was presumably forested due to Elrond's quote about a squirrel going from the Old Forest to Dunland in the Council of Elrond. (I'm almost sure Elrond said that, but Treebeard also said similar stuff). 

I really like the idea of Ents attacking and routing Sauron's retreating armies at the retreat from Eriador. It seems very possible that this was the "arousal" referred to in Treebeard's quote.


----------



## GuardianRanger (Aug 19, 2003)

On the building of Orthanc....wasn't Orthanc also the home of one of the seeing stones? It seems the stones were placed in towers or up high; like Amon Sul, Minis Tirith, Minis Morgul, etc.

I don't have my books with me, and seem to recall Unfinished Tales talking a little about this.


----------



## Arvedui (Aug 19, 2003)

You can find the answer to that in this thread. 
In the last post by Walter, you can find a link to much more information about the Palantíri. Good luck


----------



## Inderjit S (Aug 19, 2003)

*Long-winded contrive nonsense (warning will cause drowsiness) part 1*

QUOTE]I believe that the Dunelandings were in awe of the tall Sea Kings. They certianly didn't meddle with the Numenoreans who worked in the forests for the cutting of Timber, unless they found some stray Numenorean. I don't believe that they alone, would pose a threat for the Numenoreans, but being coaxed and backed by some greater power [as was the case at the time of war of the ring] they could have proved to be a threat. [/QUOTE] 

I don't know if I match this 'Perhaps someone better versed in this matter would enlighten us?' description, but we learn that the Dunlendings originally lived in Minhiriath and Enedhwaith, as they were remnants of the pre-Haladin tribes there;



> As the power of Númenor became more and more occupied with great navies, for which their own land could not supply sufficient timber without ruin, their felling of trees and transportation of wood to their shipyards in Númenor or on the coast of Middle-earth (especially at Lond Daer, the Great Harbour at the mouth of the Greyflood) became reckless


 _Of Dwarves and Men_ (HoME 12)

The felling of trees for timber began in Aldarion's reign, where he felled the trees of M-E for timber, and for the port of Vinyalonde at the mouth of Gwathlo, the river that divides Minhiriath and Enedwaith. It may have ceased during Ta-Ancalime's reign, who neglected Aladrion's policies but it may have begun again during Tar-Anarion's reign. 

We learn that this angered the 'Gwathuirim' (Since this is what they may have been known as then. The word 'Dunlending' is of Rohhirc origin and is a reference to their dark hair and skin) and the Gwathirium began to attack the Numenoreans;



> Also it must be said that 'unfriendliness' to Númenóreans and their allies was not always due to the Shadow, but in later days to the actions of the Númenóreans themselves. Thus many of the forest-dwellers of the shorelands south of the Ered Luin, especially in Minhiriath, were as later historians recognized the kin of the Folk of Haleth; but they became bitter enemies of the Númenóreans, because of their ruthless treatment and their devastation of the forests, and this hatred remained unappeased in their descendants, causing them to join with any enemies of Númenor. In the Third Age their survivors were the people known in Rohan as the Dunlendings


 _Of Dwarves and Men_ 

But they eventually removed to Dunland, though we don't know when;



> 'From Enedwaith they [the native people fleeing from the Númenóreans] took refuge in the eastern mountains where afterwards was Dunland'


 _Unfinished Tales_ 

It appears that the Gwathuirim remained in Minhiriath for some time, as Tolkien stipulates;



> The Enedhwaith (or Central Wilderness) was shared by the North and South Kingdoms, but was never settled by Númenóreans owing to the hostility of the Gwathuirim (Dunlendings), except in the fortified town and haven about the great bridge over the Greyflood at Tharbad



It may have been shared between the kingdoms after Isildur set the bounds and so there may have been much trouble there for the Dunedain in the T.A, but the population had pretty much died out at the time of the great plague which had greatly afflicted most of M-E. (The East included, since that was where it had come from.)



> In the time of the War of The Ring the lands were still in places well-wooded esp. in Minhiriath and in the south-east of Enedwaith ; but most of the plains were grasslands. Since the great plague of 1636 of the T.A, Minhiriath had been almost entirely deserted, though a few secretive hunter folk lived in the woods. In Enedwaith the remnants of the Dunlendings lived in the East; in the foothills of the Misty Mountains ; and a fairly numerous but barbarous fisher-folk dwelt between the mouths of the Gwathlo and the Angren.


 _Of Galadriel and Celeborn; U.T_ 



> The Dunlendings suffered, like all the peoples of Arnor and Gondor, in the great plague, but less the most, since they dwelt apart amd had few dealings with other men


 _Battles of Ford of Isen_ 

(Note on the accuracy of the use of the word 'Dunlendings'. Merry was the main complier about information on Rohan (Due to his close association with it) and in compiling the 'Battles of Ford of Isen' he would have asked information on people from the Mark, so he would have used words that the Rohirrim used, so even though the existence of the 'Dunlendings had not yet come into place, and many of the men here may not have been 'Dunlendings' (Some may have excavated to other places such as Bree) and so the term 'Dunlendings' in regard to their history before the T.A 2510, can be deemed as in a way 'inaccurate'.)

We later hear about the seemingly 'endless forests' of Enedwaith and Minhiriath. The only Numenorean 'settlement' there was Tharbad, which had been deserted for some time and where Boromir tells Celeborn he lost his horse.

The Gwathuirim were said to first have fled to the Cape of Eryn Vorn the vastly woody region situated close to Southern Harlindon.


----------



## Inderjit S (Aug 19, 2003)

*my god is he STILL going on?*

On *Orthanc* well, Gil-Galad in his letter to Tar-Meneldur claims that the great gap at Calenardhon, later known as the 'Gap of Rohan' was the weak point of the Western defences against the East, and claims that they needed a seat of power there. He was right, as that was where Sauron's attack on Ost-in-Edhil came from. but when Sauron invaded Eriador, Tharbad, was only lightly held. 



> In all these regions Gondor still had retained under it's own command only the fortress of Angrenost, within which was the third tower of Gondor, the impregnable Orthanc where was held the fourth palantiri of the southern realm.


 _Cirion and Eorl; U.T_ 

(Note: Angrenost was the Sindarin/Gondorian (Treebeard also calls it 'Angrenost') name for Isengard. Merry and Pippin, who wrote most of the chapters whereby Orthanc is named, would have used the Rohhirc term 'Orthanc'. 'cunning mind' )

We hear that during the Watchful Peace the Dúnedain who live in Calenardhon dwindled, and the main citadel would have been Angrenost. Strategically the Gap of Rohan was a v. important place. The Orks and Easterlings over-ran Calenardhon before the Battle of Celebrant.

We hear that the Rohirrim, who mainly settled close to the White Mountains were afraid of the 'Lord of Isengard' believing him to be a magician who dabbled in Black Magic. (They were equally suspicious about the Elves ('Elvish wraiths') so I don't know if the lord at this time can be considered 'evil')

But Gondor eventually lost contacts with Angrenost until the Dunedain who resided there eventually died out or became mingled with the Dunlendings. In the days of King Deor (2644-2718) the Dunlendings after being much harassed by the Third King of Rohan, Aldor, took control of Isengard and began to settle in the Northern Westfold and close to the South of Fangorn. Though the people of Angrenost didn't want to merge with the Dunlendings, and the Dunlendings, feigning friendship entered Angrenost and slew them. Deor, after defeating a host of Dunlendings in the Westfold, marched to Angrenost to tell them the good news (He thought they were in good relations with Rohan nonetheless and had been besieged) but found it had been taken over by hostile Dunlandish forces and he couldn't drive them out as Eglamoth the steward at the time (the father of Beren who gives Saruman the keys to Orthanc which were in the hands of the stewards) but eventually the Dunlendings were starved out by the Great Winter of 2758-9 and destroyed by Frealaf, nephew of Helm (Through his sister Hild) 




> Argonath are (at least, the King who built them is mentioned in the Appendices -- Rómendacil if I'm not mistaken).



The Argonath were built by Minalcar who was then regent but later crowned as Romendacil II, who built them to ward off the Easterlings he had recently been warring with.

Angrenost may have been built in the time of Tarannon, in which Gondor reached the 'height of its power' that he 'extended the sway of Gondor along the coasts west and south of the Vale of Anduin' One can presume 'West' meant from the River Isen to either Druwaith Iaur or Andrast' and further south alongst the coast of Langastrand, Belfalas etc. (It may be that it was now that the Dunedain began to occupy these areas though we don't know about the indeginous popualtions. Faramir mention's the stewards becoming allied with the people of the coasts, and we see in the chapter _Minas Tirith_ that the re-inforcments that arrived a few village-men under command of their lord Golsagil. Though, Belfalas of course, was a fief of Gondor and in Dol Amroth it's cheif port, dwelt remnants of the faifthful who were related to Elendil and he bestowed the name 'prince' on their rulers. 

Anyway, to continue my inane babbling, one can presume tha as Tarannon began to extend his power along the coasts, he deemed that a fortress needed to be built along the Isen and since the Gap of Calenardhon was the ideal place to build it, because of the threat of the Gwathuirim and the the general weakness of Gondor in that region. One must wonder why Isildur or Anarion would want to build a fortress agaisnt attack when they thought Sauron had perished, and we hear little about any skirmishes between them and his servants.



> But your quote is very definite, listing Orthanc and Aglarond after the Argonath.



I don't see how that effects anything. Erech for example, (Or the stone of Erech) was set by Isildur after the downfall of Numenor, yet that is listed after the Argonath.



> It seems very possible that this was the "arousal" referred to in Treebeard's quote.



Maybe Tolkien says his small remaining force was assailed in the East of Calenardhon, but he never says by whom? Maybe the Ents were angered at his burning of forests in Eriador and were thus aroused. *Giggles* (Sorry every time I hear the words 'Ents' and 'aroused' strange thoughts come into my head  )



> Eriador: Virtually desolate, with the refuge of Rivendell in the west and elvish population beyond Lune



Gil-Galad was said to have icnreased his strength during Sauron's absence.




> In the Vales of the White Mountain: The people of the black host, Druedain's with some Dunlanders also



Maybe, but they wouldn't be in peaceful co-existence. We hear about the people who disoebyed Isildur's summons worshipping Sauron in the 'dark years'. One Druedain settlement in or adjacent to the white Mountains would have been where Dunharrow stood at the time of the WoTR. Note that the Woses were said to have been driven out of their original homes my incoming men and they had a deep-set hatred for the gorgun (orks) and it is doubtful whether they worshipped Sauron, and may have been in conflict with the Men of the White Mountains, though they certianly weren't friendly with them. 




> few mixed clans [Relatives of the first age tribes of Hador and Beor] would also be occupying that area



Most of the Mannish tribes of Rhovanion or living between Carnen and the Sea of Rhun were driven into hiding by invasion of Easterlings. We never hear of them joining the alliance, or of them meeting them, even though the Alliance marched through Rhovanion.



> This marked the end of the Alliance of the Longbeards with Men of the North. For though Moria remained impregnable for many centuries, the Orks reinforced and commanded by servants of Sauron invaded the mountains again. Gundabad was re-taken, the Ered Mithrin infested and the communication between Moria and the Iron Hills for a time cut off. The Men of the Alliance were involved in war not only with Orks but with alien Men of evil sort. For Sauron had acquired dominion over many savage tribes in the East (of old corrupted by Morgoth), and he now urged them to seek land and booty in the West. When the storm passed, the Men of the old Alliance were diminished and scattered, and those that lingered on in their old regions were impoverished, and lived mostly in caves or in the borders of the Forest.


 _Of Dwarves and Men_ 





> strongholds in the Mountains, perhaps the ancestors of Hillmen mentioned in the third age occupying northern course of Anduin. A few mixed clans [Relatives of the first age tribes of Hador and Beor] would also be occupying that area.



Don't forget the Borrim!   



> We would have Dwarvish colonies in the Misty Mountains with Moria being the chief



Yes, but the Dwarves were pretty inactive at the time of the alliance. 



> heavinly influenced by Sindarin realm of Loriland in the forest



Note, Lorinand was a *Silvanic* realm with a Sindarin minority, and some of the Noldor of Ost-in-Edhil. Though it was under the rule of a Sindarin prince-Amdir, so was Mirkwood, which at time was further south, and under the kingship of Oropher.



> then we can easily imagine a few brushes between Men and Ents.



I really doubt it. I doubt whether the Numenoreans would go so far inland as Fangorn, or thereabouts, their felling of trees seems to be concentrated, Treebeard may have remembered it and it would have tainted his view of them, plus I mean Treebeard and the Ents seem to be quite impassive to Men. (i.e him and the Ents allow the Dunlendings of Isengard to pass after questioning them.)


----------



## Eriol (Aug 19, 2003)

Great inane babbling!



The only point I want to make is about the last thing -- if the forested areas spread from Fangorn to the Old Forest, perhaps the Ents did not dwell at the same spot. Perhaps they roamed the areas close to Númenórean timber extraction. This is the basis of my thought about brushes between Ents and Men; and it would also make it easier for Ents to attack Sauron's remnants after he was routed, since it would put them in Sauron's escape route. 

Any info on how was the relationship between the Dunlendings (or that Gwaithirim name you seem to prefer, though Dunlendings is better ) and Ents? 

If Fangorn was the eastern outpost of the big forest (Treebeard says something to that effect), perhaps they wandered around up to the Old Forest in that time. When we see the desolation (in forest terms) of Eriador in the Third Age, I think it very unlikely that Ents would have looked at that without getting angry; just as the Dunlendings were.


----------



## Beleg (Aug 19, 2003)

*Additional Inane Babbling*



> I don't know if I match this 'Perhaps someone better versed in this matter would enlighten us?'


You do. 



> But they eventually removed to Dunland, though we don't know when;



I guess that It could be speculated upon. An answer that comes into my mind is that wanted to get as far away as the dominating Numenoreans who as the second age progerresed became increasingly gready, and since Dunland has some forests in it, and because it is comparitively further away then the sea, so it might have been the choice for the Dunelandings. 

An interesting Question, Would 'Orthanc' be the name of the Tower only or of the whole circle? Since I have always thought and read that Angerost or Isengard is the name of Wizard's Vale and Orthanc is the name given to the tower. 



> One must wonder why Isildur or Anarion would want to build a fortress agaisnt attack when they thought Sauron had perished, and we hear little about any skirmishes between them and his servants.



Precisely, also the time of Anarion and Isuldur wasn't exactly the noontide of the Numenorean realm since there was Sauron to counter yet and Gondor was still smaller incontrast of what it became later. 


> Gil-Galad was said to have icnreased his strength during Sauron's absence.


Yes, but does this means that he populated Eriador? I don't think so. The increase in strength probably refers to the increase of Gil-galad's influence, doesn't probably mean that he actually populated Eriador, so therefore I would still call Eriador desolate. 



> Maybe, but they wouldn't be in peaceful co-existence. We hear about the people who disoebyed Isildur's summons worshipping Sauron in the 'dark years'. One Druedain settlement in or adjacent to the white Mountains would have been where Dunharrow stood at the time of the WoTR. Note that the Woses were said to have been driven out of their original homes my incoming men and they had a deep-set hatred for the gorgun (orks) and it is doubtful whether they worshipped Sauron, and may have been in conflict with the Men of the White Mountains, though they certianly weren't friendly with them.


I wasn't talking about these people living togather. Druedain would be living in the Druedain forest and in Druwaith laur and probably some scattered throughtout Langstrand and Ethir. Their majority would be living in a more Westernly corner of the Ered Nimaris except for the Drudan forest that was in Anarion. If someone hates Orcs, I can't imagine him worshipping Sauron. Also Druedain seemed to loathe or atleast detest people of Dunlanding origin as later in the third age they helped Rohan by attacking the Dunlandings. This hatred might be inherent because the people who later came into White Mountains [The white taller people] were fundamentally different from Druedain. [I don't think Druedain ever worshipped Sauron]. 
The people of the Blackhost would probably live around Erech and the upper vales of Morthond. It is also possible that some of them dwelt in Lamedon and the upper vallies of Ringlo and Ciril.



> Most of the Mannish tribes of Rhovanion or living between Carnen and the Sea of Rhun were driven into hiding by invasion of Easterlings. We never hear of them joining the alliance, or of them meeting them, even though the Alliance marched through Rhovanion.


Woodmen became aware about the attack on Isuldur's party so It is possible that some woodmen dwelt at that time in Western and South Western Mirkwood. What do you think was the origin of Beorings? Do you think their ancestors were people who had migrated from Celduin and Carnen to the Eastern vales of Anduin? 
The Quote you provided shows that few, scattered men lingered in Mirkwood and probably in the adjacent vales. And do you believe that these few, fundamentally remote woodmen would dare facing the Elvish host? They would surely be daunted by the Majesty of the host and fear would overcame them. A similar analogy can be made to the host of Rohirrim, that were going to Gondor for a good purpose but no one, friend or foe stayed their way or tried stopping them. 


> Yes, but the Dwarves were pretty inactive at the time of the alliance.


The prestige that Dwarves held Gundabad in shows that they would have populated it. And it is mentioned in Appendix A talking about the War of Orcs and Dwarves that Dwarves free every stronghold from Gundabad to Gladden, I doubt all of them sprang up in the third age, some of them must have been present in the second and precceding ages. At the time of the last alliance, the Dwarves of Moria sent a force to help the alliance.



> Note, Lorinand was a Silvanic realm with a Sindarin minority, and some of the Noldor of Ost-in-Edhil. Though it was under the rule of a Sindarin prince-Amdir, so was Mirkwood, which at time was further south, and under the kingship of Oropher.


Yes, It was a Silvanic realm but It was heavily infulenced by the coming of the Sindar and some of the Noldor of Eregion, so much so that the original Silavanic tongue was lost. The migrating elves incoporated some major changes in the preveliously simple Silvanic culture. 
What interests me is the possibility of actual Mannish population in Rohvianon during the second age. 
Oh and add Entwives too, they dwelled in the Brown Lands during the Second age. 
I would like to hear Inder's and some other people's views about it before presenting my own assertion. 



> Any info on how was the relationship between the Dunlendings (or that Gwaithirim name you seem to prefer, though Dunlendings is better  and Ents?



As Inder mentiones, Treebeard allowed the Dunlandings to leave after some questioning. This would show that Ents bore no inherent hate towards them. Also while Fangorn is citing the names of thing he hates, he only names Orcs and their masters, I doubt Ents hated them. But I don't think they had an aimble relationships at all, probably the Ents didn't care a great deal about them and left them alone. 

For myself I am not sure whether they attacked the remnants of the forces of Sauron fleeing back, 
Treebeard says, 



> *, I have not troubled about the Great Wars,' said Treebeard; 'they mostly concern Elves and Men*



So it seems unlikely to me that he would be worrying about other squirmishes that didnt directly involve him. Sure Treebeard was a constant traveller, but from all his talks seem to send me the vibes that Fangorn was the ent's primary dwelling place, otherwise Treebeard won't have called himself Fangorn. And Fangorn was never directly attacked, so I don't see why Treebeard or co would have meddled in their wars.


----------



## Inderjit S (Aug 19, 2003)

*No, not again! *screams**



> Great inane babbling!



Hehe! Well as Bilbo would say _'thag you very buch'_   



> The only point I want to make is about the last thing -- if the forested areas spread from Fangorn to the Old Forest, perhaps the Ents did not dwell at the same spot



Maybe, *but* I would think that Treebeard only travelled a lot prior to the 'Great Darkness' (most problably a reference to Morgoth's return), look at his words:



> But then the Great Darkness came, and they passed away over the sea, or fled into far valleys and hid themselves, and made songs about days that would never come again



Although the words ' and they passed away over the sea, or fled into far valleys' seem a bit perplexing in context of the actual events that took place in the WoTJ, we can forgive Tolkien since he claims that the chapter 'wrote itself' and C.T tells us at the start of the 'Treebeard' chapter of HoME 7, that since he really wasn't thinking about the legendarium as a whole, several statements from the chapter can be seen as contradictory of other events. Though maybe this is a reference to the ravaging of Eriador by Sauron? The Elves did indeed flee to valleys of 'hiding places' (Rivendell) and passed over sea. Or it could be a reference to Elves after the War of Wrath, but there was several strong Elven nations after, Lindon, Ost-in-Edhil, Lorinand and Mirkwood. Or maybe he is talking about the passing of some of the Elves to the Island of Balar?

Anyway, we can reasonably deduce that he was in fact talking about his adventures (or long walks) before Morgoth’s return when he is singing about Beleriand. The Ents may have passed West with the Nandor, under Denethor, since it seems they are allied with them, as they lie in Ossiriand, the land of the Nandor to intercept the Dwarvish army and like totally kick some Dwarf butt!   

He then says 'And now all those lands lie under the wave'....And i walk....in my own country of Fangorn' so it is evident that Treebeard is from Fangorn, he calls it his 'own land'. 

He also no doubt passed through Eriador, he seems to know quite a bit of the geography of it's lands. But what is odd, is that he has never heard of the Shire nor can he remember lands that are similar too it. Now, Elrond comments about the great forest from 'Chetwood to Dunland'. Now in Chetwood there is still a small remnant of the forest remaining, Aragorn takes the Hobbits through it on the way to the Midgewater Marshes, and the Shire therefore wasn't part of the lands in which trees had been greatly felled, though it had a few forests, of course. Also, we hear about Hallacar's stories to Ancalime, about the Edain''s pasturing of flocks in Eriador before they reached Eriador. ( _Of Dwarves and Men_ tells us about how the Marachian tribes brought many sheep etc when they came to Beleriand). Now the only place which matches this description is the Shire. Also formerly the Edain had but several graves where Barrow-Wight’s now stand, so one wonders why Treebeard, who has been all around Eriador doesn't know anything about the Shire? 

I really don't think Treebeard had passed out of his realm for many a age, unless it was to search for the Entwives, but that was in the T.A not S.A. The Gwathuirim were said to welcome Sauron as it meant the Numenoreans may be driven away. So they burnt a lot of the wood-stores of the Numenoreans-but would this anger the Ents? No-it was the Numenoreans who felled the trees, the Haladin had been defending them for years they seem to have some sort of affinity or love for trees, (although they were defending their homes at the same time) and seem to be very much a woodland folk, for a length of time. So as I think you say, the Numenoreans may have incurred some of the Entish wrath for their wreck less deforestation. But the Northmen done something similar to the Eastern Bight, yet we never hear about the Ents being angered by that. 

Also, we find out in _Of Galadriel and Celeborn_ that Treebeard struck a deal with the King of Lothlorien, that they knew each other borders and that Treebeard or any Ents rarely left Fangorn. So who was the 'King'? Well not Celeborn, he was *lord* of Lothlorien. It could either be Amroth or Amdir. I'm guessing it was Amdir he was the first 'King' of the Silvan Elves in that region, and Treebeard and the Ents were most likely away in Beleriand during the WoTJ and so they would not be concerned with the doings of the Nandor/Silvan Elves in the Vale of Anduin. So it likely that Treebeard returned to find a prosperous Elven realm close to his borders and he met with Amdir and they discussed the borders. 



> that Gwaithirim name you seem to prefer, though Dunlendings is better



Well 'Gwathuirim' is the name of the race collectively. The 'Dunlendings' refers to a portion of that race and it only refers to their history after a certain date. It's like saying the Edain who didn't enter Beleriand and the ones who did one and the same, IMO.  Plus I'm as pedantic as Sam is reverent of Frodo.


----------

