# Curious about a line.....(guns?)



## GuardianRanger (Jul 21, 2004)

Forgive me if this has been discussed, I didn't see it in the archives.

In The Return Journey, there is discussion about the end of the Battle of Five Armies. We are hearing how the Eagles came, but that that was not enough. And in the end, Beorn came to save the day. Describing Beorn, it is said:



> The roar of his voice was like drums and guns;



What guns? How would anyone know about guns back then? The earliest mention of gunpowder, or explosives in general, is The Two Towers. 

Thoughts?


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## Confusticated (Jul 21, 2004)

Well _The Hobbit_ is a translation. Not only that, but its author/scribe puts himself some time ahead of the events in the story. For example look at the beginning of the first chapter to find "... what is a hobbit? I suppose hobbits need some discription nowadays..." and the mention of the world being more green and that sort of thing.


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## Grond (Jul 21, 2004)

The narrator (J. R. R. Tolkien) was speaking to his reading audience in terms THEY could understand. While "guns" were not in existance during the time of the Hobbit... every reader could understand what the sound of "drums and guns" would sound like. I think you're reading more into this than the author intended.


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## GuardianRanger (Jul 22, 2004)

Thanks for the replys.

That's kind of what I suspected, especially because of the points you raised. I just wasn't sure if I was reading it right. 

It only stuck out in my mind because there are not too many other "modern" references, like trains, autos, etc.


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## Beorn (Jul 22, 2004)

And pocketses....Pockets were invented early in the Renaissance.


'Burned gun powder' is used to describe the smell after Gandalf attacks the Goblins which take the Dwarfs hostage while they're in the Misty Mountains.


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## GuardianRanger (Jul 23, 2004)

Beorn said:


> 'Burned gun powder' is used to describe the smell after Gandalf attacks the Goblins which take the Dwarfs hostage while they're in the Misty Mountains.



Good point, I missed that one.


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## Whichway (May 1, 2011)

I've been wondering about this line for years now, too!! I grew up with the 6 cassette B.B.C. version of The Hobbit, in which GANDALF tells Bilbo how the battle ended, and says "The roar of his voice was like drums and guns and he tossed wolves and goblins from his path like straws and feathers. It was Beorn who stooped and lifted Thorin who had fallen, pierced with spears, and bore him out of the fray." etc. 

That seemed altogether different from the _narrator _saying "then there was a great flash like lightning in the cave, a smell like gunpowder, and several of the goblins fell dead." (Those tapes were an abridged version, sorry guys). Anyway, thanks for the clarification, that makes a lot of sense.


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## Erestor Arcamen (May 1, 2011)

Gun Powder must have been around even if they didn't know it as such due to Gandalf's fireworks and also Saruman's use of explosives for the Battle of Helm's Deep (though I don't recall 100% if this was canon to the book or not from the movie)


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## baragund (May 4, 2011)

I don't know, guys...

If Bilbo could have a clock on his mantlepiece, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to think that somebody, especially those nassssty goblinses, would have figured out a way to use that gunpowder to make some kind of primitive firearm. 

The kind of technology needed to make a mantle clock, driven by main springs as opposed to weights, wasn't developed by us Big Folk until the 1700s give or take. Muskets and cannon were around a lot longer than that.


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## Peeping-Tom (May 4, 2011)

Guys... don't take Tolkiens descriptions of sounds too literally...

He also uses sound-images, such as trains and jet-engines...

It is just to give the readers of modern age, a more understandable knowledge of the sound impressions and not the literally sounds themselves...


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## baragund (May 5, 2011)

But Tom, there _was_ a clock on Bilbo's mantle. That's where Gandalf left his message the morning after the Unexpected Party.

I agree with you that in the context that GuardianRanger brought up the topic, the gun reference is a descriptive term used by the Narrator, but the development of technology seems to be a bit uneven in middle-Earth. Domestic items and architecture seem to be at the equivalent of our 1700s-1800s but weaponry seems to be around 500years or so earlier...

Now the thing that has always had me scratching my head was where did Bilbo get *coffee...* :*confused:


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## Peeping-Tom (May 6, 2011)

I can't remember from where, but I do believe having read, that Tolkien said something about lost technologies through the ages. That Númenorean technology were lost by the drawning and things invented in, or techonology from, Middle-Earth became lost when the world again changed into the one we know today...

Otherwise, I have no explanations....


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## baragund (May 6, 2011)

There you go! The Numenoreans, who in turn got their technology from the Eldar, was highly advanced, even magical, compared to what the inhabitants of such burgs as Hobbiton, Bree or Lake Town could produce. Classic examples include the Palantiri and the construction of Orthanc. And of course the best weapons were those produced in ancient times.

OK, I think we beat that one to death...:*)


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