# What happens to Sauron & Saruman after their defeat?



## Goldberry (Mar 6, 2003)

Both Sauron and Saruman were Maiar. Can they be killed? Are they dead, or are they spirits without shape, unable to create a new form, and unable to cause any more trouble?

Melkor could not be killed and had to be locked outside the confines of the world. I have not read anything yet about the fate of the Maiar. Can anyone share information?


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## Ithrynluin (Mar 6, 2003)

They cannot die. 

With the destruction of the One, Sauron lost the ability to ever assume a physical appearance again. He was reduced to a harmless spirit. Whether he went to the Void is uncertain: The Valaquenta seems to imply so but:
1. We don't know whether that was Tolkien's last opinionon the matter, since the Sil was "composed" by C.T.
2. That may have been put a bit metaphorically (he followed the same path down into the Void)
3. There was no need to send him into the Void since there was no chance of him ever recovering again - in contrast with Melkor, who would rise again, simply because of the relative greatness of his spirit

Judging by the chapter "The Scouring of the Shire", Saruman was simply disembodied and rejected passage into the West.


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## Niniel (Mar 7, 2003)

But is it really sure that Sauron would never rise again? After all, he has been beaten before, and returned. Since of course Sauron lost a great deal of his powers, if he ever recovered it would take him a very long time, but maybe it's not impossible.

(YAAAAAAY! My 1000th post!! It's taken me ages to get there (well, exactly one year minus a week... ) 2000 here I come...)


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## Mirabella (Mar 7, 2003)

Maybe not impossible, but improbable. From "The Last Debate":



> "If it is destroyed, then he will fall; For he will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in his beginning, and all that was made or begun with that power will crumble, and he will be maimed forever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape."


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## Ithrynluin (Mar 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Niniel _
> *But is it really sure that Sauron would never rise again? After all, he has been beaten before, and returned. Since of course Sauron lost a great deal of his powers, if he ever recovered it would take him a very long time, but maybe it's not impossible.*



Sauron has never before poured a great part of his being into an artifact. The artifact was destroyed, and the great amount of power that Sauron invested into it was also gone.

From Morgoth's Ring:



> The dark spirit of Melkor's 'remainder' might be expected, therefore, eventually and after long ages to increase again, even (as some held) to draw back into itself some of its formerly dissipated power. It would do this (even if Sauron could not)because of its relative greatness.



Happy 1000th post Niniel!


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## Confusticated (Mar 7, 2003)

I question what is said in Morgoth's Ring about Morgoth having the wisdom to rebuild but Sauron not.

Here's a link to it.


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## Gil-Galad (Mar 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *They cannot die.
> 
> Judging by the chapter "The Scouring of the Shire", Saruman was simply disembodied and rejected passage into the West. *


The most pleasant thing in the whole chapter.........bad,bad,Saruman.


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## Ithrynluin (Mar 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Gil-Galad _
> *The most pleasant thing in the whole chapter.........bad,bad,Saruman. *



I was actually very sad when he died.

I'm weird.


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## Arvedui (Sep 26, 2005)

Think about it:

They are both lingering around at the moment, desperately working to regain shape and power.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Oct 3, 2005)

Maybe Sauron and Saruman could combine spirits and become one super-powerful entity! Sauron being the better of the two of course lol


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## Thorondor_ (Oct 3, 2005)

You played too much Starcraft


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## Erestor Arcamen (Oct 3, 2005)

Never played a day of it in my life  (seriously


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