# A greater tendency for rebellion?



## Ithrynluin (May 12, 2003)

From _The Valaquenta_:



> Aulë has might little less than Ulmo. His lordship is over all the substances of which Arda is made. In the beginning he wrought much in fellowship with Manwë and Ulmo; and the fashioning of all lands was his labour. He is a smith and a master of all crafts, and he delights in works of skill, however small, as much as in the mighty building of old. His are the gems that lie deep in the Earth and the gold that is fair in the hand, no less than the walls of the mountains and the basins of the sea. The Noldor learned most of him, and he was ever their friend. [color=sky blue]Melkor was jealous of him, for Aulë was most like himself in thought and in powers[/color]; and there was long strife between them, in which Melkor ever marred or undid the works of Aulë, and Aulë grew weary in repairing the tumults and disorders of Melkor. Both, also, desired to make things of their own that should be new and unthought of by others, and delighted in the praise of their skill. But Aulë remained faithful to Eru and submitted all that he did to his will; and he did not envy the works of others, but sought and gave counsel. Whereas Melkor spent his spirit in envy and hate, until at last he could make nothing save in mockery of the thought of others, and all their works he destroyed if he could.



Aulë - made the Dwarves in secret and thus rebelled against Eru, though he repented afterwards and was forgiven

The Noldor - rebelled against authority and committed a crime against their brethren, the Teleri of Alqualondë

Saruman - Maia of Aulë, corrupted

Sauron - Maia of Aulë, good in his beginning but turned evil

Morgoth - the Dark Lord, committed crimes agains Eru himself

Sauron and Saruman were both Maiar of the 'house' of Aulë. The Noldor were his pupils. Morgoth's powers were said to have been most like Aulë's (see quote).

Why are these beings that are skilled in forging and have an affinity with the element of Earth, seemingly more susceptible to evil and/or rebellion and corruption?


----------



## YayGollum (May 12, 2003)

Maybe because they have more imagination and fun with new ideas and exploring and power and stuff?


----------



## Ithrynluin (May 12, 2003)

Maybe, Yay, but I'd like to dig deeper.


----------



## YayGollum (May 12, 2003)

Hm. How much deeper can you go? Or is there some book that I don't know about that explains every little thing about how one of these people thinks? Probably not. You wouldn't have started this thread. oh well. Doobedoobedoo... maybe I'll see how much more deeper you can get.


----------



## Niniel (May 13, 2003)

Well, all evil that happened was connected to beautiful things (see the discussion in Annals of the Eldanyare), so anyone who can make beautiful things is likely to cause evil. But that's all I can think of right now.


----------



## Moriquende (May 13, 2003)

It would be to perfect and,kind of unreal,if everyone was good.As to why those beings that are skilled in forging are more susceptible to evil maybe in the long term they don't want to do what Ery always tells them and they want to create new things,as Aule did,but they don't repent afterwards.


----------



## Ithrynluin (May 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Moriquende _
> *As to why those beings that are skilled in forging are more susceptible to evil maybe in the long term they don't want to do what Ery always tells them and they want to create new things,as Aule did,but they don't repent afterwards. *



I don't think we could say that just because they had the power to _create_ necessarily means they were more prone to rebellion. Yavanna was also a creator of things, but not a rebel.

Aulë seems to have bad luck (and that's putting it mildly) when it comes to 'students gone awry'. Why is that?


----------



## Lantarion (May 13, 2003)

Perhaps it means that material creations are transcient, futile and unnecessary, and are the root cause for unrest.

..Putting it generally and pseudo-philosophically.


----------



## Eriol (May 13, 2003)

I would put it this way: material creation is the most similar activity to Eru's own activity. Unlike praising, singing and general delight in Eru's Creation, an artisan really changes this Creation into something new. The skill to do that is liable to lead to delusions of power. 

Working with material stuff is supposed to be harder than with musical tones or words, or ideas (little do the artisans know!  ).

But I think this is the root of it. Aulë himself is an exception to the pattern, since he delights in the creative process, not in the result. But his followers (Sauron, the Noldor, etc.) were very jealous of their works -- and of their skill. Why? Because they _and only they_ could work with the hardest material of all, matter, and produce something beautiful out of it. That is why the Noldor generally despise (in a congenial way) the Teleri, singers and poets. Little do they know...

As for Yavanna, he is also jealous of her creation, as the Ent "genesis" shows. But Yavanna's works are "self-replicant", so she apparently is less attached to it than the artisans... though I feel this is our biased opinion. Yavanna probably feels as much for the smallest flower in a meadow than Feänor felt for the Silmarils.

(A related question -- do you think the Noldor were "artisans" before the Great March, or only when they came into contact with Aulë? And the Teleri, singers, etc. etc.? Can it be that in Cuiviénen this "Noldorin snobbery" could be already seen?)


----------



## Ithrynluin (May 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Eriol _
> *(A related question -- do you think the Noldor were "artisans" before the Great March, or only when they came into contact with Aulë? And the Teleri, singers, etc. etc.? Can it be that in Cuiviénen this "Noldorin snobbery" could be already seen?) *



I think that each group already had inveterate characteristics at Cuivienen. Among the Avari there are some akin to the Noldor and the Teleri (but not the Vanyar) - I think they very much resemble their Calaquendi brethren. The only difference is that 'The Elves of Light' were enhanced by the Light of Valinor and the teachings of the Valar.


----------



## Gil-Galad (May 13, 2003)

Well,they all had great skills.And when somebody develops his skill soon he possess greater abilities and with great abilities comes greater aims and bigger ambitions.
Aule teach all of them things that lay the foundation of progress and desire for progress meshed with amibitions and great aims,may cause rebellion.When somone realize he has abilities and at the same time he is stopped by somebody else to do what he wants,he will probably rebel against the person who stops him.
That happens with some of them,and others(Morgoth,Saruman)just desired more cause they thought they had enough abilities to achieve what they want.


----------



## YayGollum (May 13, 2003)

Hm. Maybe there was something more to say.  oh well. Let me see here. Second question ---> Maybe. They just had the personality for it. I doubt they started making all kinds of things yet. They just decided to be different races because of how they looked, right?


----------



## Glomund (Jul 6, 2003)

I don't know if I would say they are more succeptible to evil, but maybe more likely to overlook evil in pursuit of what they see as a greater good. The people of Aule had knowledge of and skill over the matter of Arda. This power, or control may have caused them to see order and conformity as a desirable end. I believe that since Melkor and Aule were similar, Melkor was better able to convince Sauron that his(melkors) taking over would bring about order and stability, and Sauron was able to do this to Saruman. When Saruman is trying to get Gandalf to join him he says that Sauron would bring Knowledge, Power, Order. He is trying to convince Gandalf that the evils done along the way were worth the price. I remember reading somewhere that Sauron had these same thoughts, but can't find it.
As for Yavanna and why she or her followers did not "fall", could be because they saw that all living creatures are "individual and unique", and either saw or somehow knew that order and perfection in them was impossible to achieve and not a desirable thing anyway. To put it simpler, Aule and the artisans saw order as the highest or best thing for Arda, while Yavanna and her people saw free will and individuality as neccesary and part of the design of Eru


----------



## Beleg (Jul 8, 2003)

> Melkor was better able to convince Sauron that his(melkors) taking over would bring about order and stability, and Sauron was able to do this to Saruman.



How was Sauron able to Induce upon Saruman that his taking over would bring order and Stability? Not order certainly!

And here you see the effect of Melkorian lies!!

If Melkor was able to convince a great Maia like Sauron that his taking over would bring stability and order [When his real purpose was Anhiliating everything upon Arda (According to Myths Transformed)] then imagine how potent his lies would be and how easily he might be able to ensnare the Noldor in the web of his lies. 



> A related question -- do you think the Noldor were "artisans" before the Great March, or only when they came into contact with Aulë? And the Teleri, singers, etc. etc.? Can it be that in Cuiviénen this "Noldorin snobbery" could be already seen?)



Yes, I remember reading somewhere [posiblly in Q&E] that each clan of Elves had developed their own obessions and qualities during their stay in Kuivinien.


----------



## Ithrynluin (Aug 20, 2003)

> *by Beleg*
> If Melkor was able to convince a great Maia like Sauron that his taking over would bring stability and order [When his real purpose was Anhiliating everything upon Arda (According to Myths Transformed)] then imagine how potent his lies would be and how easily he might be able to ensnare the Noldor in the web of his lies.



Melkor had his own purposes, and in Melkor's nature and understanding of things, Sauron saw greater efficiency and percieved that his own plans would come to fruition much sooner. Here's the quote from Myths Transformed:



> Sauron had never reached this stage of nihilistic madness. He did not object to the existence of the world, so long as he could do what he liked with it. He still had the relics of positive purposes, that descended from the good of the nature in which he began: it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall, and of his relapse) that he loved order and coordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction. (It was the apparent will and power of Melkor to effect his designs quickly and masterfully that had first attracted Sauron to him.)





> *by Beleg*
> How was Sauron able to Induce upon Saruman that his taking over would bring order and Stability? Not order certainly!



The following quote gives us some insight into Sauron's plans if he would have been victorious:



> _The Return of the King; The Black Gate Opens_
> ‘These are the terms,’ said the Messenger, and smiled as he eyed them one by one. ‘The rabble of Gondor and its deluded allies shall withdraw at once beyond the Anduin, first taking oaths never again to assail Sauron the Great in arms, open or secret. All lands east of Anduin shall be Sauron’s for ever, solely. West of the Anduin as far as the Misty Mountains and the Gap of Rohan shall be tributary to Mordor, and men there shall bear no weapons, but shall have leave to govern their own affairs. But they shall help to rebuild Isengard which they have wantonly destroyed, and that shall be Sauron’s, and there his lieutenant shall dwell: not Saruman, but one more worthy of trust.’



Order is _exactly_ what these two Maiar were after, even though their idea of idea was somewhat twisted, meaning that the end justify the means. They wanted to be rulers in an ordered, organized world.


----------



## JOSHUASIGEP44 (Dec 22, 2003)

*Aule, that trouble maker*

As I think about Aule I can't help but wonder that he unintentionally caused or had an influence over several things that caused a heap of trouble for ME. For example Sauron and Saurman, an argument could be made that these were two of the strongest Maia's ever to come to ME. They of course were both Maiars of Aule. 

1.Sauron uses the skills that Aule thought him to build all the rings of power. Threw Aule's teachings he also laid the foundation for the dark tower,Barad-dur. And to many horrible things to count

2.Saurman also uses this skill. In the fellowship of the rings he says I'm Saurman of many colors and ring maker etc.

3.Don't forget about the dwarves. Now I'm not saying that they did not do a lot of good, but the were not intended to ever exists. Aule did out of love for his on works.

4.Feanor if I recall correctly was taught by the people of Aule, and he then turns around and builds the Silmarils. We all know how much trouble that caused.


Side Note: I'm sure there is more

Did Aule do more damage than good? Your thoughts.


----------



## Confusticated (Dec 22, 2003)

Woah! The Silmarils contain the only holy light left in Arda, and will be used in the end to heal the hurts of Morgoth. And though Melkor influenced the Noldor into making weapons, they had already learned much craft which would have allowed for them to be good at making those weapons and good people for Melkor to target because of their skill. The Noldor gave Morgoth a good kick in the behind later, and help protect the rest of Middle-earth.

But I think all that Aule did, including those dwarves, was woven into the tale of Arda in such a way that they, just like most everything else, may sometimes cause bad and good... but in the end will have contributed to the fulfilment of the tale.

But I sometimes wonder what would have happened if not for the dwarves. It is because of the dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost that the Sindar were well enough armed to survive the first onsalught of orcs after Morgoth's return. Would the Sindar have got into metalcraft if no dwarves had tought them? I suspect they may not have considering their friends the Laiqeundi did not. The only real difference between these two peoples is that Thingol was a Calaquende and they had Melian the Maia... but should we think either of those two would have somehow caused swords to be made? Surely not have learned the craft from Melian? Away east, dwarves and men later had arrangements... dwarves help in the defence of men and in arming them, whereas men were the farmers.

Now one could argue that the Noldor would have made it to Middle-earth in time to have prevented orcs from utterly destroying all the elves of Beleriand: Sindar, Falathrim, Laiquendi. 
Or that Melian would have set up her girdle before all was lost. I think the possablities are endless. It could be that without the dwarves all would have been lost in Beleriand. Maybe there would have been no Doriath, no Luthien... then of course things would have had to work out differently. And probably men, Nandor, and Avari would have had more to deal with out east if the dwarves hadn't been around there.

But who can say if the consequences of Aule's actions did more harm than good when we can't know how things would have happened without them? But all the Valar did was taken into the tale. Remember what Eru says to Melkor? I see no reason this does not go for Aule... and all Ainur. I think that as things happened because of Aule, his influence was more good than bad.


----------



## JOSHUASIGEP44 (Dec 22, 2003)

The ensuing war that was brought on by the theft of the Silmarils, was bad not the Silmarils themselves.

I'm on the side of the dwarves. I think they have shown the worth many times over. On countless occasions they helped all peoples of ME. 

What about the Maiar you did not address them.


----------



## Confusticated (Dec 23, 2003)

Well, I include the Maiar when I say that I think it was all fitted into the tale. But it seems like that type of knowledge that Aule had is more often used for bad than good. It leans too much in the direction of engines and machines... industrialization. But is that a thing (within Tolkiens mythology) that men would not have come up with on their own? I find it hard to believe they would not have... and this is mostly because we have done so in our history and apparantly without learning it of Sauron, dwarves or elves who learned it from Aule. But if I am mistaken and men would not have come up with these things without Aule, then sure they would have learned it from Morgoth, or Maiar?

I guess I could say that metalcraft is maybe a road to evil, but one that was necessary since Morgoth existed and the Children had to defend themselves against him. Could it even be that Aule was among the Ainur who tuned in with Melkor when he first caused discord, at least in thought, but not in heart? 

I can see as how Saruman's treachery had a positive contribution in the WotR, but what did the final uprising of Sauron accomplish? Maybe brought some estranged people together against a common enemy and tought some people a lesson? But it would only be forgotten in a couple generations. And was it ultimately good that Sauron convinced Ar-pharazon to attack Aman? I think men would have eventually done so when their own technology reached a point where they thought they could. I'm rambling I guess. I see not reason Sauron had to rise again... don't see what it contributed in the long run... men had already caused war with eachother and not just those who were under Sauron against the elf-friends. So maybe Sauron didn't serve any higher purpose for the better... but I tend to think he must have somehow. Maybe it had a lot more to do with the elves than men.


----------



## Ingolmin (Jan 5, 2017)

No, it is not necessary. You can't build a theory upon it. Anybody could be susceptible to evil. You should remember Ossë.
During the shaping of Arda, Ossë was swayed into entering the service of Melkor who offered him the powers of Ulmo and played on his wild and sometimes violent desires. Thus, the seas suffered from wanton storms which came unto the lands bringing great ruin to them. He was persuaded to stop by Uinen under Aulë's bidding, but his taste for violence never really disappeared.

But still you are right in one way, many that were skilled in crafts had become evil because they develop a kind of curiosity and desire with the things they make and discover. Take for example Feanor, he was so obsessed by his creation(Silmarilli) that he took exile.
Saruman in order to discover more about the One Ring fell under its sway and accepted the lordship of Sauron.


----------

