# What did Fingolfin's people want to do with Feanor?



## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 12, 2021)

So in the First Kinslaying Galadriel fought against Feanor. In Shibbileth it is said now she desired to follow him with her anger to whatever lands he might come and to thwart him in all ways that she could.

When did she get that motive? Was it after the Kinslaying or after the burning of the ships? How do you think the situation went on with Galadriel after the kinslaying? NoME says she had a great fight with Feanorians at Alqualondë, yet she went into Exile anyway because she desired freedom.

My guess is that she wanted to kill Feanor, but she controlled herself and didn't take the kinslaying further into madness. She would've lost anyway, there weren't enough people at her side. But after Burning of the Ships she completely lost her **** and many people sided with her.

What did Fingolfin and Turgon want to do with Feanor when they got there to Middle-earth?

Why nobody did anything with sons of Feanor? Some of them even became more friendly with them!

I guess the death of Feanor was satisfying enough for Galadriel and Fingolfin and some others that they restrained themselves from killing his sons. They also probably blamed Feanor for everything and saw his sons as victims of their father's folly... More or less. And they let them be. Although, still, they didn't like them nonetheless. I guess Finrod played a great role in this peace making.

What do you think?


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## Melkor (Sep 12, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> So in the First Kinslaying Galadriel fought against Feanor. In Shibbileth it is said now she desired to follow him with her anger to whatever lands he might come and to thwart him in all ways that she could.


I never read about this. This is very interesting!

I don't think that Fingolfin would kill Fëanor. For a simple reason. Can you imagine that bloodshed if armies of Fingolfin and Fëanor fight together? Yes, Fingolfin's army would win, but with great casualties. Fingolfin would never allow that. He genuinely care about his people. The same applies to Turgon. His sorrow was greater than Finfolfin's, because he lost his wife on Helcaraxë, but still he wouldn't start a war. At least for a sake of his daughter. She would be in a great danger.

Why nobody did anything with sons of Fëanor? Fingon play great part in this. Another factor is that Maedhros passed kingship on Fingolfin. And after Fëanor death, Maedhros become the leader of Fëanorians. Maedhros is different than his father. He was far more reasonable, kind and wise. It must be difficult for Maedhros and Fingolfin to maintain peace. Maedhros must have great diplomatic skills.


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## m4r35n357 (Sep 12, 2021)

After the "near incident" at Lake Mithrim, the Noldor eventually occupied Beleriand with Finarfin's sons wedged in between Fingofin and Feanor's lot.


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 12, 2021)

Thank you for your great reply, Melkor.




Melkor said:


> I never read about this. This is very interesting!


Yeah Galadriel's fued with Feanor is one of my favorite parts of the Legendaruim.

From The Shibboleth of Feanor:

Feanor asks Galadriel to give him some of her hair but she refuses. "These two kinsfolk, the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor,(14) were unfriends for ever."

"...opposition to Feanor soon became a dominant motive with Galadriel,"

She didn't use a specific dialect only to piss off Feanor and make his influence weaker.

"From her earliest years she had a marvellous gift of insight into the minds of others, but judged them with mercy and understanding, and she withheld her good will from none save only Feanor. In him she perceived a darkness that she hated and feared, though she did not perceive that the shadow of the same evil had fallen upon the minds of all the Noldor, and upon her own."

It seems she saw darkness in him even when he hadn't turned THAT bad. He turned very ugly (in behavior) after he created the Silmarils.

"Even after the merciless assault upon the Teleri and the rape of their ships, though she fought fiercely against Feanor in defence of her mother's kin, she did not turn back. Her pride was unwilling to return, a defeated suppliant for pardon; but now she burned with desire to follow Feanor with her anger to whatever lands he might come, and to thwart him in all ways that she could."

Unfortunately it's not elaborated any further. But I guess Galadriel wanted to find a way to kill Feanor but he got himself killed before she would get the chance. As I explained with more details in the original post.

In Nature of Middle-earth we got new details: "Galadriel’s quarrel with the sons of Fëanor at sack of Alqualondë.
... She nonetheless went into Exile because though she did not love the sons of Fëanor she was personally proud and rebellious and wished for freedom."

I don't think she hated Maedhros and Maglor that bad, at least not until the Second Kinslaying. The sons of Feanor here is probably a reference to the ones who were always unlikeable. I would like to think she got her revenge by somehow aiding Dior and Nimloth to kill those hateful Feanorians. Curufin and Celegorm had kidnapped her second cousin and the daughter of her bestfriend, they had started chaos in the realm of her fav brother, and they had resulted in the death of her brother.

If they hadn't imprisoned Luthien, she would've arrived to Minas Tirith before the death of Finrod and she would've saved him.


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 12, 2021)

m4r35n357 said:


> After the "near incident" at Lake Mithrim,


What do you mean? Care for Mor elaboration?


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## m4r35n357 (Sep 12, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> What do you mean? Care for Mor elaboration?


See "of the Return of the Noldor", paragraph beginning "But Fingolofin, being of other temper . . .".

"Then there was peril of strife between the hosts".


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## Melkor (Sep 12, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> I would like to think she got her revenge by somehow aiding Dior and Nimloth to kill those hateful Feanorians.


She didn't. She and Celeborn crossed Ered Luin before fall of the Nargothrond.


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 12, 2021)

Melkor said:


> She didn't. She and Celeborn crossed Ered Luin before fall of the Nargothrond.


Oh that's an early version.

Christopher Tolkien explains in Unfinished Tales: 

"There is no part of the history of Middle-earth more full of problems than the story of Galadriel and Celeborn, and it must be admitted that there are severe inconsistencies "embedded in the traditions"; or, to look at the matter from another point of view, that the role and importance of Galadriel only emerged slowly, and that her story underwent continual refashionings.

Thus, at the outset, it is certain that the earlier conception was that Galadriel went east over the mountains from Beleriand alone, before the end of the First Age, and met Celeborn in his own land of Lórien; this is explicitly stated in unpublished writing [which is now published in History of Lord of the Rings and People of Middle-earth], and the same idea underlies Galadriel's words to Frodo in The Fellowship of the Ring II 7, where she says of Celeborn that "He has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him years uncounted; for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat." In all probability Celeborn was in this conception a Nandorin Elf (that is, one of the Teleri who refused to cross the Misty Mountains on the Great Journey from Cuiviénen).

On the other hand, in Appendix B to The Lord of the Rings appears a later version of the story; for it is stated there that at the beginning of the Second Age "In Lindon south of the Lune dwelt for a time Celeborn, kinsman of Thingol; his wife was Galadriel, greatest of Elven women." And in the notes to The Road Goes Ever On (1968, p. 60) it is said that Galadriel "passed over the Mountains of Eredluin with her husband Celeborn (one of the Sindar) and went to Eregion." "

Lindon south of the lune is a reference to Harlindon. Harlindon was in the East of the Ered Luin. Galadriel and Celeborn crossed Ered Luin in early Second Age in all Sindarin versions of Celeborn.

So yeah, there's a contradiction in the very same book. In LOTR 1 Celeborn was a Nandorin Prince of Lorien who met with Galadriel when she crossed the mountains of Ered Luin and Misty Mountains in First Age and came to Lorien. In the Appandices to ROTK Celeborn is a Sinda kinsman of Thingol, and he and his wife were living in Harlindon in SA ere they crossed the mountains of Ered Luin.

Also, fun fact, after Tolkien published that Celeborn is a Sinda and soon he wrote his Sindarin origin, he revised a passage about Galadriel's stay in Doriath. In Later Quenta Silmarillion 1 Galadriel stayed long in Doriath. But in the revised version, in Later Quenta Silmarillion 2, Tolkien omitted the word "long"! The implication here is that Tolkien had decided that Galadriel stayed in Doriath until the end of it. Originally Galadriel was supposed to stay long, but not until the end, in Doriath. But this was changed in 1958.

Christopher Tolkien is of the opinion that Galadriel aided the Sindar greatly in the Second Kinslaying: "It is a natural assumption that Celeborn and Galadriel were present at the ruin of Doriath (it is said in one place that Celeborn "escaped the sack of Doriath"), and perhaps aided the escape of Elwing to the Havens of Sirion with the Silmaril - but this is nowhere stated."

I wholeheartedly agree with Chris on this. 

So it's stated by JRR himself, Celeborn was present in the Ruin of Doriath and escaped. You might question why JRR didn't say Celeborn AND Galadriel escaped the Ruin of Doriath? Well we don't have the full context of that quote. But my guess is that in the context of this quote JRR was focusing on Celeborn, not Galadriel. The same way that in a draft it is stated Galadriel returned to Lorien, and Celeborn's name in this return to Lorien was not mentioned, the draft was more focused on Galadriel. But we know that Celeborn did return to Lorien. 

Anyway, assuming Galadriel left her husband and the grandson of her bestfriend goes against her character. It makes her look like a total j*rk. She's "the fairest lady of the House of Finwë, and the most valiant." She's described as the only woman who is as valiant as the Princes of the Noldor. She is described as supa wise and supa in love with her mother's kin. She doesn't fear some Feanorians threat against Doriath. She had already fought them in First Kinslaying. In fact, she was ASKING FOR IT. This was her chance to kill Feanorians, as she long had dreamed, especially Celegorm and Curufin. In early versions she rejected Eonwë's offer to return to the West only and only because of her love for Celeborn who didn't desire to leave Middle-earth (in later version it was because of her love for all the suffered people). Why would she abandon her great love in Doriath against the threats of Feanorians? In the Fall of Eregion, she fought side-by-side with Celeborn against Sauron who was at his peak. Why would such a person flee from Doriath when hearing the threat of bunch of Elves who she is thirsty for their blood? I won't believe that she broke character.

Anyway, Tolkien's son very well knew these and he is very valid on this. His assumption that Celeborn and Galadriel aided in the escape of Elwing is based on a passage where it is generally stated that the survivors of Doriath aided in the escape of Elwing. Galadriel and Celeborn were the closest (known) surviving family of Elwing, and we expect from them to aid their family. Moreover, since they were the most powerful of all survivors they must've been the MVPs. Especially Galadriel who was "the greatest of the Noldor except Feanor maybe".


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## Elthir (Sep 13, 2021)

> TheManInTheMoon said:
> ( . . . ) In Later Quenta Silmarillion 1 Galadriel stayed long in Doriath. But in the revised version, *in Later Quenta Silmarillion 2, Tolkien omitted the word "long"!* ( . . . ) Originally Galadriel was supposed to stay long, but not until the end, in Doriath. *But this was changed in 1958.*



The statement "remained in Doriath" _appears_ in the LQ2 typescript (itself made around 1958),
because the LQ2 typist was copying a version of a rider that had been inserted into the QS manuscript.

And with respect to revisions (or whatever) that Tolkien himself made to LQ2 (specifically, the relevant section here, section 101), Christopher Tolken explained that JRRT wrote a note against the name _Felagund_ (CJRT providing the note).



> Melkor said:
> She didn't. She and Celeborn crossed Ered Luin before fall of the Nargothrond.



Galadriel's statement in _The Lord of the Rings_ ["He has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him years uncounted; for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat."], does not
actually refer to any _specific_ mountains in any case.

_The Road Goes Ever On_ does, but here the context is *"After the overthrow of Morgoth at the end of the First Age, a ban was set upon her return, and she had replied proudly that she had no wish to do so. She passed over the Mountains of Eredluin with her husband Celeborn (one of the Sindar) and went to Eregion."*


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## Melkor (Sep 13, 2021)

Elthir said:


> does not
> actually refer to any _specific_ mountains in any case.


I think it is obvious to what mountains she refers. The closest mountais east of Doriath are Ered Luin.


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## Elthir (Sep 13, 2021)

Melkor

I'm trying to give you some wiggle room for a possible in-story interpretation with respect to Celeborn the Sinda, since the fact remains that Galadriel's statement does not actually refer to specific mountains.

In a draft text, the mountains were thus: _"For we have dwelt here since the mountains were reared and the sun was young. And I have dwelt here with him since the days of dawn, when I passed over the Seas with Melian of Valinor; and ever together we have fought the long defeat." _JRRT, Galadriel, The Treason
of Isengard

Granted, draft text scenario. Okay, in any event, the ultimate scenario that JRRT published concerning Celeborn is that he is a Sindarn Elf -- so you _might_ want to use this ambiguity to imagine (or at least
try to) a different "in story" meaning with respect to Galadriel's statement.

Or you might not.

It's up to you obviously.

Over the years I've seen several attempts to provide an in-story scenario here, which, even if some were not perfect, at least follow in Tolkien's footsteps (in my opinion) of trying to imagine something, and something that was beyond "scribal error" (or similar).


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## Elthir (Sep 13, 2021)

Melkor said:


> I think it is obvious to what mountains she refers. The closest mountais east of Doriath are Ered Luin.



She doesn't say she passed over mountains after going East from Doriath either


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## Melkor (Sep 13, 2021)

Elthir said:


> She doesn't say she passed over mountains after going East from Doriath either


She said "I passed over the mountains" in that quote from LOTR.

I don't consider LOTR as a only source. I just always think that she and Celeborn passed Ered Luin before the second sack of Doriath. But now I am little bit confused. Did she participated in the battle with Fëanorians in Menegroth? And if she and Celeborn help to escape Elwing, why this isn't mentioned anywhere? And why it isn't mentioned that they lived in Havens of Sirion for some time? Or on Balar. And what after the third kinslaying?


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## Elthir (Sep 14, 2021)

Melkor said:


> She said "I passed over the mountains" in that quote from LOTR.



Yes, but here's my emphasis: she doesn't say "I passed over the mountains" _after going East from Doriath_.



Melkor said:


> I don't consider LOTR as a only source.



Neither do I!

And not that you said otherwise, but all I'm trying to add here is that the reader is not obligated 
to interpret what Galadriel says (in this quote) based on a rejected idea (Celeborn the Nando).

A rather obvious statement perhaps, but there it is


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 14, 2021)

Melkor said:


> And if she and Celeborn help to escape Elwing, why this isn't mentioned anywhere?


The mention of Celeborn escaping the Ruin of Doriath is published in Unfinished Tales.




Melkor said:


> the second sack of Doriath


This event happened after the Fall of Nargothrond. Anyone who has any reading ability can understand Galadriel is saying she passed over the mountains before the fall of Nargothrond and met Celeborn. I have dwelt with him years uncounted because I passed over the mountains ere the fall of Nargothrond.




Melkor said:


> And why it isn't mentioned that they lived in Havens of Sirion for some time? Or on Balar. And what after the third kinslaying?


The same reason it isn't stated that Celebrimbor was there after the Fall of Nargothrond.

The later chapters of Quenta Silmarillion were never revised. If Tolkien had finished Later Quenta 2 you would've seen more of Galadriel and Celeborn and Celebrimbor.

But indeed, it is stated that Galadriel was present in Beleriand until the end of it.

After Tolkien published Celeborn is a Grey Elf in 1955 in Appendix B, in following years he wrote about Galadriel being in Beleriand until the end of it multiple times. From Nature of Middle-earth :
"...in the Second Age, when Galadriel refused to return to Eressëa, and passed over the Mountains."

"She became acquainted with Celeborn (a Sindarin prince, and kinsman of Thingol) in Beleriand. But there were few marriages or child-births among the Eldar during the War with Angband, which though it occupied 590 years, [13] was to the Eldar in “ageing time” only a matter of some six year-equivalents. She probably married Celeborn soon after the overthrow of Morgoth, and when she (it appears, because of love for Celeborn, who would not leave Middle-earth yet) declined
to return West to Eressëa, [fn1] they passed together over the “Mountains of Lune” into Eriador. [14] She was then about 26 in age," Here Galadriel was 20 when she entered Beleriand. 600 years later, after the end of Beleriand, she had become 26 in age. 

"Gilgalad became king in Lindon (under [?Suz[erainty] or ?Sway] of Galadriel) about SA 10–20 after departure of Galadriel and Celeborn."

"By the end of the First Age
– the overthrow of Thangorodrim and the ruin of Beleriand
– she had added (600-9LY)/144
= approximately 4 LY.
She was thus about 28 (or in mortal equivalent aged 21). Early in the Second Age she married Celeborn, and dwelt first in Lindon." Here Galadriel was 21 or 22 when she entered Beleriand. In one version crossing of the Helcaraxë aged her 1 age, in the other it aged her 2.

"Celeborn and Galadriel were not married (though betrothed) during the dreadful years of the “Battle of Wrath”, nor for some while afterwards in the confusions of the Second Age (i.e., not till SA 24)."

"...end of the First Age. For love of Celeborn (who did not wish to leave Middle-earth), at the downfall of Angband and the ruin of Beleriand she crossed the Eryd Lindon into Eriador."

"The best story seems to be that outlined under “Galadriel”, [15] in which they take part in the settlement of Eregion, and later of its defence against Sauron."
This is a reference to Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn in which they passed over the mountains in early second age.

There's also author published texts such as RGEO and Appendix B where it is stated Celeborn and Galadriel lived in Harlindon in early second age, until they crossed the mountains.

My excuse to reconcile Tolkien's conflicting statements in FOTR and ROTK about Galadriel is that: Galadriel crossed the mountains of Lammoth/Hithlum ere fall of Nargothrond and met Celeborn. It might seem weird that she's refering to the fall of Nargothrond when Nargothrond wasn't even established when she met him. But you have to remember, she's talking to the Fellowship here with Hobbits among them, this isn't a history class, this is rather a general way of saying A LONG LONG TIME AGO.

Either this, or Frodo made a slip in writing the Red Book, or the Gondorian editors did it, or Tolkien the translator of the Red Book made a mistranslation.


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## Melkor (Sep 14, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> This event happened after the Fall of Nargothrond. Anyone who has any reading ability can understand Galadriel is saying she passed over the mountains before the fall of Nargothrond and met Celeborn. I have dwelt with him years uncounted because I passed over the mountains ere the fall of Nargothrond.


I know. But we discussed her part in second kinslaying. Fall of Nargothrond isn't related to the second kinslaying, so I simply didn't talk about it.

Anyway, thanks for detailed elaboration. I was little bit confused at the beginning of the discussion, but now I understand.


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 14, 2021)

Elthir said:


> The statement "remained in Doriath" _appears_ in the LQ2 typescript (itself made around 1958)


So what then? I don't understand. Did Tolkien revise the "remained long in Doriath"? Because Tolkien omitted the entire paragraph here and in the revised paragraph the word "long" doesn't appear.

And anyway, the writings even from 1959 and 1965 makes it very clear Galadriel was not willing to leave Celeborn. And we know Celeborn "escaped the ruin of Doriath". So Galadriel must have been there... This is besides to the fact that she loved Melian too much (and therefore her descendants) and she wasn't scared of Feanorians and desired greatly to fight them. She wouldn't abandon her beloved ones and miss this chance of fighting Feanorians.


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 14, 2021)

Melkor said:


> I know. But we discussed her part in second kinslaying. Fall of Nargothrond isn't related to the second kinslaying,


what is meant here is that in 1954 and earlier Galadriel was supposed to cross the mountains of Ered Luin and Misty Mountains before the Fall of Nargothrond and miss the chance of fighting in Second Kinslaying and so on, as is stated by Tolkien himself in People of Middle-earth. But in 1955 and later years Galadriel wasn't supposed to cross the Blue Mountains in First Age, now she crossed them in early Second Age. Until Tolkien decided that nope, she crossed them in First Age in latest version (1973). That latest version contradicts everything Tolkien ever published. And it is the latest version, but not the last. He probably would've made a lot of new versions again, as usual.

Anyway, in the versions which doesn't contradict ROTK Appendices and RGEO, Galadriel was present in Beleriand until its destruction in War of Wrath, and Celeborn was a Sinda Prince who met Galadriel in Doriath.


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## Elthir (Sep 14, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> So what then? I don't understand.



I'm simply pointing out that your statement above (as I read the explanation in HOME) mischaracterizes the textual scenario. You wrote . . .



TheManInTheMoon said:


> But in the revised version, in *Later Quenta Silmarillion 2, Tolkien omitted the word "long"*! The implication here is that Tolkien had decided that Galadriel stayed in Doriath until the end of it. Originally Galadriel was supposed to stay long, but not until the end, in Doriath. *But this was changed in 1958*.



Christopher Tolkien did not note that his father's "remained in Doriath (version)" was a revision to_ the typescript of LQ2_ -- and thus he did not explain that _"this was changed in 1958"._

Again the version you are referring to simply _appears_ in the LQ2 typescript (itself made around 1958),
and it appears there because the LQ2 typist was copying a version of a rider that had been inserted
into the QS manuscript.

An actual "change" (addition) _made to LQ2_ (section 101) was the note against the name _Felagund._


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## Alcuin (Sep 14, 2021)

The history of Galadriel and Celeborn seems to me an issue Tolkien never successfully resolved. It’s one of the reasons, I believe, he never managed to published _Silmarillion_ during his lifetime: it was too complex, and fitting all the pieces together into a coherent whole was beyond his (most impressive!) abilities in the time he had left to live. Christopher Tolkien tried in the published _Silmarillion_ to fit together a seamless tale, but after that experiment gave up further attempts and displayed his father’s notes and materials as they stood, including all the contradictions and inconsistencies.


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 15, 2021)

Elthir said:


> Christopher Tolkien did not note that his father's "remained in Doriath (version)" was a revision


So what? He also didn't note this for a lot of subtle and petty and small seemingly unimportant changes.

The fact remains that the word "long" did not survive from Galadriel staying long in Doriath and Beleriand, as soon as Tolkien wrote Celeborn was the grandson of Elmo from Doriath. Coincidence? I think not.


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## Elthir (Sep 15, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> So what? He also didn't note this for a lot of subtle and petty and small seemingly unimportant changes.



Your last response to my post cuts off my full sentence, which was: "Christopher Tolkien did not note that his father's "remained in Doriath (version)" was a revision to_ the typescript of LQ2_ -- and thus he did not explain that _"this was changed in 1958"._ 

But yet you claimed this was changed in 1958. So the point was, and still is, that your characterization of the textual scenario was incorrect.


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 15, 2021)

I don't care if Christopher specifically explained it or not.

This was changed in 1958: the word "long" did not survive.

Moreover, Christopher removed every mention of "long" in the statements that Galadriel remained long with Melian or remained long in Doriath when he inserted Grey Annals text into published Silmarillion.

He **knew**


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## Elthir (Sep 15, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> I don't care if Christopher specifically explained it or not. *This was changed in 1958*: the word "long" did not survive.



It doesn't matter whether you care or not, and repeating it doesn't make it so -- the version in question was introduced in a rider to the QS manuscript -- not to the LQ2 typescript, itself made around 1958.

The typist simply copied this in 1958.

There's even a different section for the explanation of any Tolkienian corrections or changes (or whatever) made to _"one or the other, or to both, of the copies of LQ2"_!

Thus we know, an addition actually made by JRRT to section 101, in (around) 1958, or at least, after the LQ2 typescript existed, was the note against the name Felagund.


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 15, 2021)

So when exactly was the statement that Galadriel remained in Doriath written? Because until 1954 Galadriel was not supposed to stay in Doriath until its end, she was supposed to abandon the entire Beleriand. The change of Galadriel staying in Beleriand until its end was only made after Tolkien published Celeborn is a Sinda in 1955.
Hence that statement couldn't have been written any earlier than 1955.


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## Elthir (Sep 16, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> So when exactly was the statement that Galadriel remained in Doriath written? ( . . . ) The change of Galadriel staying in Beleriand until its end was only made after Tolkien published Celeborn is a Sinda in 1955. Hence that statement couldn't have been written any earlier than 1955.



In any case, Celeborn appears as Sindarin in the draft text titled F4 (Appendix On Languages).

And with respect to the text in question, in brief: Galadriel _"remained in Doriath" could_ be the wording on the LQ1 typescript, itself made in 1951.

The problem here (very briefly put) is that there are two riders involved, but they were so alike up to a point that Christopher Tolkien only gives the second version, explaining: *"To this point the two forms of the rider differ only in a few details of wording, but here they diverge."* And he then gives the second version, as it continues “diverging”.

For possible clarity, this second rider is the one I have been referring to in the thread (the one copied by the typist of LQ2). Anyway, here in WJ we don't get to see the exact wording of the rider as copied in LQ1 (1951), so we don't know what these "few details of wording" refer to specifically.

Anyway again . . .

. . . in _The War of the Jewels_, Christopher Tolkien notes that without question the_ revised rider_ was written at the same time as _Of Turgon And The Building of Gondolin_, which text Hammond and Scull note under [Hammond and Scull, Chronology]: *?Late 1951 - ?early 1952*, which is the same general period they give for JRRT starting his new account of _The Fall of Gondolin,_ incidentally.

I note the question marks here, and this is not the only place in_ Chronology_ where H&S employ them. That said, they picked this time frame nonetheless.

And that said, I'm just reporting what Christopher Tolkien and two of the most respected Tolkien scholars have written here -- if you disagree with H&S that's one thing; if you disagree with anything I've reported here, that's another thing.

Or to put it another way: this is (as I read things here) the textual scenario as explained by CJRT and H&S.


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 16, 2021)

I'm not disagreeing. I was just not aware of this very well. And I am still confused and not understanding it very well.

So long story short, we don't know for sure when exactly this 'differing wording' that appears in LQ2 was written? Are both versions written in 1951?




Elthir said:


> Celeborn appears as Sindarin in the draft text titled F4 (Appendix On Languages)


This is the one from 1951 right? I guess Tolkien immediately forgot about it. Or else he would've revised that Galadriel speech in FotR about Celeborn.

Man G&C backstory is a mess.


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## Elthir (Sep 16, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> So long story short, we don't know for sure when exactly this 'differing wording' that appears in LQ2 was written? Are both versions written in 1951?



As far as we know, the wording "remained in Doriath" could be in both riders** *-- the one copied in 1951 (LQ1), and the second one copied in 1958 (LQ2).

But with respect to LQ1, maybe, maybe not.

All we know is that the two riders were similar enough with respect to this section that CJRT quoted the second one, adding only that the riders differ only in a few details of wording. And so we don't know if these few details of wording refer to the sentence in question, or something else entirely.

But in any case, the second rider -- which we know has "remained in Doriath" in it -- has been dated by Hammond And Scull as *?Late 1951 - ?early 1952 *-- and this time frame seems at least based in part on Christopher Tolkien's statement that the second rider was written at the same time as _Of Turgon And The Building of Gondolin._




TheManInTheMoon said:


> This is the one from 1951 right? I guess Tolkien immediately forgot about it. Or else he would've revised that Galadriel speech in FotR about Celeborn.



My guess for F4 would be 1951 as well. CJRT hints that this version may well be associated with the _Grey Annals_ and the_ Excursus on the Languages of Beleriand_. He also relates that it was not the last version, in any event. And I wouldn't be surprised if, after the Excursus, Tolkien updated this Appendix with F4.

Odd as it might sound, Tolkien had "finished" (the writing of) _The Lord of the Rings_ (well mostly "finished" if I'm being pedantic), _before_ he landed on the true . . . history of Sindarin!

And with respect to Galadriel's "ere the fall of Gondolin" I don't know what JRRT was thinking, or not thinking, about this. He had a chance to revise this for the Second Edition in any case, but didn't. Did he remember it was there? I would have preferred he adjust this sentence rather than the (ultimate) Finrod > Finarfin thing . . .

. . . especially considering that JRRT's problem with _Finrod_ (as expressed in PE17 anyway) was that he shouldn't have received a Sindarized name (as a character who had remained in Aman), and then Tolkien ultimately characterized _Finarfin_ as a Sindarized name in any case!

That said though, in general, alliteration is nice!

__________
***just to note it here, the rider copied in LQ1 (1951) was lost, and thus its particular wording is only preserved in LQ1.


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 16, 2021)

So what you are saying is that it is possible that Celeborn was a Sinda in Tolkien thought, even in 1954, yet he forgot about revising his Nandorin origin in FOTR (both first and second editions).

If Celeborn was a Sinda when Tolkien wrote Grey Annals and LQ in 1950-1952, then why he isn't mentioned in GA and LQ? Why his first appearance as a Sindarin Prince who fell in love with Galadriel in Beleriand is from 1955? Why Galadriel ceases to exist in GA after early 400? We don't see her in Beren and Luthien tale, we don't see her in Turambar tale... It's just weird to not see her in such great detailed tales. Perhaps because Tolkien was still thinking Galadriel left Beleriand ere fall of Nargothrond. Hence, in GA, we don't see Melian's bestfriend in around 420-500 when so many great events take place in Doriath.


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 16, 2021)

Elthir said:


> (Celeborn the Nando).


 I was always a fan of Celeborn the Valinorin Teleri, honestly.


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## Elthir (Sep 17, 2021)

For myself, I'll have no "Teleporno" the Teler from Aman 

I'll have Celeborn the Sinda!


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 17, 2021)

Elthir said:


> For myself, I'll have no "Teleporno" the Teler from Aman
> 
> I'll have Celeborn the Sinda!


lol I just liked the idea of a someone besides a Nokdor being in Middle-Earth. Also the idea of Galadriel sailing after Fëanor to get revenge is amusing to me. I also like the idea that someone had planned to go back to Middle-Earth BEFORE the Rebellion (beyond just thinking about it)


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## Elthir (Sep 17, 2021)

Alcuin said:


> Christopher Tolkien tried in the published _Silmarillion_ to fit together a seamless tale, ( . . . )



If I had to create a version, generally speaking, I'd follow CJRT's lead for the constructed Silmarillion, including leaving out Galadriel fighting at Swanhaven.


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 17, 2021)

ZehnWaters said:


> Also the idea of Galadriel sailing after Fëanor to get revenge is amusing to me


Galadriel had no intention of revenge in that version.

Also, Galadriel sailed before Feanor does.


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 17, 2021)

Elthir said:


> leaving out Galadriel fighting at Swanhaven


Blasphemy! Galadriel fought in Alqualonde in all versions written by JRR himself.

BTW, you didn't answer why... 

Tolkien didn't mention Celeborn in Grey Annals and LQ and kinda suggested that Galadriel left Beleriand to meet Celeborn of the Nandor (by saying she dwelt "long"). 

Why.... 

Tolkien still referred to Celeborn as a Nando in 1954 and not until he published Celeborn is a Sinda in 1955 that he finally wrote about Galadriel and Celeborn meeting in Doriath and not leaving Beleriand until the end of FA. 

Perhaps because he immediately forgot that he had turned Celeborn into a Sinda in that language text in 1951.


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## Elthir (Sep 17, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> Blasphemy! Galadriel fought in Alqualonde in all versions written by JRR himself.



Disagree. Not in the version found in _The Annals of Aman_, nor in the revised version of _Of The Flight of the Noldor_ in Quenta Silmarillion (see chapter 7, The Later Quenta Silmarillion I, Morgoth's Ring)



TheManInTheMoon said:


> BTW, you didn't answer why...



You're basically asking me to try and read Tolkien's mind, and I already spent enough time (as I choose to spend it) explaining the textual scenario -- make of it what you will.


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 17, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> Galadriel had no intention of revenge in that version.
> 
> Also, Galadriel sailed before Feanor does.



Wasn't that half the reason she left? I mean, she'd been planning on going before the Rebellion even took place (that's why she and Celeborn had a ship ready) but I thought she ended up leaving after the First Kinslaying to seek after Fëanor (with all her previous motivations still extant, but secondary).


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 17, 2021)

Elthir said:


> Not in the version found in _The Annals of Aman_,


Marginal note against the participants of the second host in the Kinslaying 




Elthir said:


> nor in the revised version of _Of The Flight of the Noldor_ in Quenta Silmarillion (see chapter 7, The Later Quenta Silmarillion I, Morgoth's Ring)


We don't see Galadriel at all in that chapter, until Helcaraxë. We don't know what was her part in the Kinslaying in that version.

So I correct myself: Galadriel is explicitly stated to have fought against the Noldor in 90% of her many versions.




Elthir said:


> You're basically asking me to try and read Tolkien's mind, and I already spent enough time (as I choose to spend it) explaining the textual scenario -- make of it what you will.


Thanks. Yeah it's impossible to figure this out.


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 17, 2021)

ZehnWaters said:


> Wasn't that half the reason she left? I mean, she'd been planning on going before the Rebellion even took place (that's why she and Celeborn had a ship ready) but I thought she ended up leaving after the First Kinslaying to seek after Fëanor (with all her previous motivations still extant, but secondary).


You are confusing Shibboleth version with Unstained Galadriel version.
She left DURING the Kinslaying, being terrified of sins of Feanor and the sudden despair of the darkening of Valinor. She got to Middle-earth sooner than Feanor. She landed at Cirdan's place. And she absolutely didn't have any motivation of killing Feanor in this version. It's not stated. The closest thing stated to that is "she was in every way opposed to him" and "she was an enemy of Feanor". But "her reasons were legitimate". Hence you can't interpret this as she being motivated to kill Feanor, such murder or revenge is not "legitimate".

The version where it is stated "now she was filled with desire to follow Feanor to whatever land he might come and to thwart him in all the ways that she could" is the one where Galadriel took part in the Rebellion and rejected Mandos and crossed the Helcaraxë.


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 17, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> You are confusing Shibboleth version with Unstained Galadriel version.
> She left DURING the Kinslaying, being terrified of sins of Feanor and the sudden despair of the darkening of Valinor. She got to Middle-earth sooner than Feanor. She landed at Cirdan's place. And she absolutely didn't have any motivation of killing Feanor in this version. It's not stated. The closest thing stated to that is "she was in every way opposed to him" and "she was an enemy of Feanor". But "her reasons were legitimate". Hence you can't interpret this as she being motivated to kill Feanor, such murder or revenge is not "legitimate".



I never said anything about murder or killing. I said "revenge". Being his enemy and opposing him in every way is a form of revenge.



TheManInTheMoon said:


> The version where it is stated "now she was filled with desire to follow Feanor to whatever land he might come and to thwart him in all the ways that she could" is the one where Galadriel took part in the Rebellion and rejected Mandos and crossed the Helcaraxë.



Hm. I'll need to break back out my books.


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 17, 2021)

ZehnWaters said:


> I never said anything about murder or killing. I said "revenge". Being his enemy and opposing him in every way is a form of revenge.


Same, kinda. Going to Exile to be oppose your uncle doesn't seem much legitimate for Manwë.

But anyway, as soon as this Galadriel found out about The Curse of Mandos she planned to leave Beleriand and fortify the East. And eventually did so soon. She would've done the same whether Feanor was alive or not. Galadriel is a Mary Sue here in this version. Unlike the other version she doesn't do deeds out of anger here. Her 'opposition' of Feanor here would've been far more peaceful and subtle, unlike the angry goth Galadriel version.


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 17, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> Same, kinda. Going to Exile to be oppose your uncle doesn't seem much legitimate for Manwë.
> 
> But anyway, as soon as this Galadriel found out about The Curse of Mandos she planned to leave Beleriand and fortify the East. And eventually did so soon. She would've done the same whether Feanor was alive or not. Galadriel is a Mary Sue here in this version. Unlike the other version she doesn't do deeds out of anger here. Her 'opposition' of Feanor here would've been far more peaceful and subtle, unlike the angry goth Galadriel version.



And I find both to be delightful. I dunno about her being a Mary Sue but I suppose she does start approaching that level (she is rather idealized, though she's missing a few other key traits such as being good at everything).


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 17, 2021)

ZehnWaters said:


> she's missing a few other key traits such as being good at everything)


She is, good, at, everything. You forgot her being the excellent pupil of all of the Valar?


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 17, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> She is, good, at, everything. You forgot her being the excellent pupil of all of the Valar?



Uh...yes, actually. Where was that? I don't remember her ever being a smith.


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 17, 2021)

ZehnWaters said:


> Uh...yes, actually. Where was that? I don't remember her ever being a smith.


From the latest version: "being brilliant in mind and swift in action she had early absorbed all of what she was capable of the teaching which the Valar thought fit to give the Eldar," 

She was supposed to be only the pupil of two Valar in the earlier versions: "Galadriel was a Noldo, and she had a natural sympathy with their minds and their passionate love of crafts of hand, a sympathy much greater than that found among many of the Eldar: the Dwarves were "the Children of Aulë," and Galadriel, like others of the Noldor, had been a pupil of Aulë and Yavanna in Valinor."

This is why she told Eregion that Annatar Aulendil "was not in the train of Aulë in Valinor". she herself was an Aulendil, yet she didn't remember this Annatar Aulendil from her time back in Valinor.

From the earilest conception, Galadriel was supposed to be the one who enriched Lorien with her skills. The "rustic" Silvan, as Tolkien puts it, weren't that bright, until Galadriel came around. Hence you see Silvan of Lorien are so much more advanced than Silvan of Mirkwood. Their gears are even more advanced than the chief dwelling of the Noldor's. 

I love that Galadriel's Telerin energy is so strong in her. She created swan boats in memory of Teleri, she heavily prefers Silver material, and she actually associated herself mostly with Teleri people (Sindar and Nandor are both Teleri).


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## Elthir (Sep 17, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> Marginal note against the participants of the second host in the Kinslaying



That's a note to a later typescript of the Annals of Aman.

By _Annals of Aman_ I was, and am, referring to the version that went hand in hand with the time frame of my second example. And since there is an AAM version, I had thought it was not necessary to have to also point out "not in every version" or similar, given that your response here changes nothing . . .

. . . in short, I pointed out two versions, one found in AAM, another in QS, and it remains so.



TheManInTheMoon said:


> We don't see Galadriel at all in that chapter, until Helcaraxë. We don't know what was her part in the Kinslaying in that version.



There is more context to consider here, in any case.

In my opinion, anyway, according to this phase of writing (AAM early 1950s, LQ1 revisions to QS) Galadriel did not participate in any fighting at Swanhaven.


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 17, 2021)

Yes I think that to, Galadriel was supposed to reach to Alqualonde when it was already too late and the battle was over.

Later Tolkien decided to put Galadriel with Fingon and have her turn against Fingon and Feanor in defence of her mother's people. Later he decided that she was already at Alqualonde when Feanor came knocking.

Annals of Aman is Annals of Aman. That Annals of Aman was Christopher's source and he scrapped away that note about Galadriel part in the Kinslaying completely. The way he brutally butchered Turgon by trying to portray him as a sexist who doesn't give any care to his daughter. Chris scrapped away the mention of Idril as the only heir of Turgon in the Flight of the Noldor (can be found in Annals of Aman). And even then Chris failed to properly butcher yet another female character  It slipped from him to scrap away the mention of Idril as the only heir of Gondolin in a later chapter of published Silmarillion, taken and inserted from Quenta Noldorinwa.

JRR Tolkien: look how my son massacred my girls!


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 17, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> Yes I think that to, Galadriel was supposed to reach to Alqualonde when it was already too late and the battle was over.
> 
> Later Tolkien decided to put Galadriel with Fingon and have her turn against Fingon and Feanor in defence of her mother's people. Later he decided that she was already at Alqualonde when Feanor came knocking.
> 
> ...



Tolkien's women were always cool.


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 17, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> From the latest version: "being brilliant in mind and swift in action she had early absorbed all of what she was capable of the teaching which the Valar thought fit to give the Eldar,"



Hm. Well this doesn't necessarily mean she was good at everything, only that she was an eager learner and very learned individual. Maybe she just learned thing academically.



TheManInTheMoon said:


> She was supposed to be only the pupil of two Valar in the earlier versions: "Galadriel was a Noldo, and she had a natural sympathy with their minds and their passionate love of crafts of hand, a sympathy much greater than that found among many of the Eldar: the Dwarves were "the Children of Aulë," and Galadriel, like others of the Noldor, had been a pupil of Aulë and Yavanna in Valinor."
> 
> This is why she told Eregion that Annatar Aulendil "was not in the train of Aulë in Valinor". she herself was an Aulendil, yet she didn't remember this Annatar Aulendil from her time back in Valinor.



Oh, yeah, I'd forgotten about this. Man I need to go back and reread my books.



TheManInTheMoon said:


> From the earilest conception, Galadriel was supposed to be the one who enriched Lorien with her skills. The "rustic" Silvan, as Tolkien puts it, weren't that bright, until Galadriel came around. Hence you see Silvan of Lorien are so much more advanced than Silvan of Mirkwood. Their gears are even more advanced than the chief dwelling of the Noldor's.



Hm. I knew she made the lembas (as was the Lady's job).



TheManInTheMoon said:


> I love that Galadriel's Telerin energy is so strong in her. She created swan boats in memory of Teleri, she heavily prefers Silver material, and she actually associated herself mostly with Teleri people (Sindar and Nandor are both Teleri).



Me too. I've never really cared for Gold. White metals all the way!


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## Elthir (Sep 17, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> Yes I think that to, Galadriel was supposed to reach to Alqualonde when it was already too late and the battle was over.



Well, this seems a far cry from your initial: _"Galadriel fought in Alqualonde in all versions written by JRR himself." _

Here you appear to agree that (again, in this phase of writing) the Finarfinians arrived too late, and: _"Thus the folk of Finrod [Finarfin] had no part in the dreadful deed that then was done"_ (QS, LQS1), or from the opening to _Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn " . . . because the people of Finarfin had had no part in the Kinslaying of Alqualonde."_



TheManInTheMoon said:


> Annals of Aman is Annals of Aman.



Yet some distinctions matter, as the one I made earlier. And at least arguably . . .



TheManInTheMoon said:


> That Annals of Aman was Christopher's source and he scrapped away that note about Galadriel part in the Kinslaying completely. ( . . . ) JRR Tolkien: look how my son massacred my girls!



And I would also not have included this idea, as I said, at least as an editor of an actual book. And that decision has nothing to do with Galadriel being a woman, but rather with avoiding a (at least possibly) false textual pairing.

Obviously you may disagree with even that choice. I happen to think it was the right one, if conservative, as Christopher Tolkien _could not know_ (for certain) if these later ideas were simply to be absorbed into the "Doriath scenes" . . . _or _if they might have altered them in some measure.

In the later note to the typescript to AAM, Tolkien *added Finrod* to the fighting at Swanhaven as well, along with Galadriel . . .

. . . Finrod being a *male Elf *of course. Christopher Tolkien left this out of the constructed Silmarillion too.

And as you appear to agree, Galadriel's discussion with Melian, Finrod's reaction to Thingol's words, Angrod's argument, were, _in any case_, all written when Tolkien imagined that these characters were not at the Kinslaying.


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 17, 2021)

Elthir said:


> Finrod being a *male Elf *of course


Finrod was explicitly stated to be with Finarfin. To put him into Kinslaying battle, you needed to radically alter the passages about his part in the Rebellion completely.




Elthir said:


> all written when Tolkien imagined that these characters were not at the Kinslaying.


Yes but it is not stated that they weren't in the Kinslaying in Grey Annals. It is merely stated that they didn't have any part in the slaying of Teleri.


Elthir said:


> " . . . because the people of Finarfin had had no part in the Kinslaying of Alqualonde."


Firstly, Galadriel was with Fingolfin's people in the later version. And secondly, indeed Galadriel had no part in kinslaying of Alqualonde. She didn't kill any people of Alqualonde in any versions.

Look, I know, I understand Tolkien only got Galadriel fighting idea in 1968. The same time he came up with Galadriel being super strong and of a great warrior's stature and skill and all that.


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 17, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> Firstly, Galadriel was with Fingolfin's people in the later version. And secondly, indeed Galadriel had no part in kinslaying of Alqualonde. She didn't kill any people of Alqualonde in any versions.



Hm. You don't suppose she killed any Noldor do you? Or even wounded them? Or did she just shield the Teleri from the sharp blades of the Noldor?


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 17, 2021)

ZehnWaters said:


> Well this doesn't necessarily mean she was good at everything,


She was "the equal if unlike endowments of Feanor". Feanor was a genius who could learn anything which he put his effort into. Same with Galadriel here. Her fall here was her being to genius and knowledge hungry.




ZehnWaters said:


> Hm. I knew she made the lembas (as was the Lady's job).


No you didn't. The information in Of Lembas contradicted this. Until recently people assumed Galadriel taught her maidens how to bake lembas and then from that time on she herself didn't bake anymore. But after NoME got published, we learned that Galadriel didn't teach anyone except her daughter and granddaughter about lembas baking.

Did you know Galadriel's mirror is a direct parallel to Irmo's cauldron? And guess who was Irmo's best Maia... Melian. And who was Melian's best pupil and Aulë's best female pupil...

Literally everything in Galadriel's realm is a parallel to something from Undying Lands or Beleriand. 

This always gets me: "She had endeavoured to make Lórien a refuge and an island of peace and beauty, a memorial of ancient days, but was now filled with regret and misgiving, knowing that the golden dream was hastening to a grey awakening."


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 17, 2021)

ZehnWaters said:


> Hm. You don't suppose she killed any Noldor do you? Or even wounded them? Or did she just shield the Teleri from the sharp blades of the Noldor?


People of Alqualonde are not Noldor. It's a reference to Teleri.

In such a brutal merciless assault, killing your enemy is unavoidable. I suppose Earwen fought side-by-side with her daughter. "Indeed in dire straits or desperate defence the Nissi fought valiantly"
It's just a such a cool image.


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## Elthir (Sep 17, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> Finrod was explicitly stated to be with Finarfin. To put him into Kinslaying battle, you needed to radically alter the passages about his part in the Rebellion completely.



What text(s) are you referring to? QS and LQS1? QS here: "and at the rear came sorrowing Finrod and Inglor and many of the noblest and fairest of the Noldor; and they looked often backward . . ."

Is this the text you claim needed radical alteration? Something else?



TheManInTheMoon said:


> Yes but it is not stated that they weren't in the Kinslaying in Grey Annals. It is merely stated that they didn't have any part in the slaying of Teleri.



shrug



TheManInTheMoon said:


> Firstly, Galadriel was with Fingolfin's people in the later version. And secondly, indeed Galadriel had no part in kinslaying of Alqualonde. She didn't kill any people of Alqualonde in any versions.



Again what "later version", and what is the date? In any case, the quote I provided was from CG&C, which notes that she [Galadriel] -- daughter of Finarfin [first sentence] -- was welcome in Doriath, as her mother was Earwen and because the people of Finarfin had had no part in the Kinslaying.

"No part" here can easily mean no part in the sense of LQ1, as in: she/they weren't there.



TheManInTheMoon said:


> Look, I know, I understand Tolkien only got Galadriel fighting idea in 1968. The same time he came up with Galadriel being super strong and of a great warrior's stature and skill and all that.



And when Christopher Tolkien leaves out Galadriel fighting at Swanhaven, you essentially accuse him of misogyny -- or at least raise the idea of it -- and when he leaves out Finrod, out comes the argument that he needed to "radically" alter something (again, what text or texts specifically).

All while seemingly agreeing that the Doriath scenes taken up into the constructed Silmarillion were written when the Finarfinians simply arrived too late, providing, in my opinion, a perfectly acceptable reason to have left both Finrod and Galadriel out of any part of the fight at Swanhaven.


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 17, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> She was "the equal if unlike endowments of Feanor". Feanor was a genius who could learn anything which he put his effort into. Same with Galadriel here. Her fall here was her being to genius and knowledge hungry.



Did we necessarily get rid of her burning ambition to rule a realm of her own? That CAN be construed as being a flaw.



TheManInTheMoon said:


> No you didn't. The information in Of Lembas contradicted this. Until recently people assumed Galadriel taught her maidens how to bake lembas and then from that time on she herself didn't bake anymore. But after NoME got published, we learned that Galadriel didn't teach anyone except her daughter and granddaughter about lembas baking.



So...she DID make the Lembas, then?



TheManInTheMoon said:


> Did you know Galadriel's mirror is a direct parallel to Irmo's cauldron?



Did the Valar even HAVE cauldrons after the stories changed into the Quenta Silmarillion from the Book of Lost Tales? Or did you mean the mirror was a story element that was descended from Irmo's cauldron.



TheManInTheMoon said:


> Literally everything in Galadriel's realm is a parallel to something from Undying Lands or Beleriand.



I knew the Mallyrn were. Not so much a parallel, though, as they were just FROM Valinor. Did they use Telain in Valinor?



TheManInTheMoon said:


> This always gets me: "She had endeavoured to make Lórien a refuge and an island of peace and beauty, a memorial of ancient days, but was now filled with regret and misgiving, knowing that the golden dream was hastening to a grey awakening."



Naturally. The purpose of the Rings were to retain things unsullied by time so I imagine that's why she took hers.


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## Elthir (Sep 17, 2021)

ZehnWaters said:


> Hm. You don't suppose she killed any Noldor do you? Or even wounded them? Or did she just shield the Teleri from the sharp blades of the Noldor?



I realize you might be looking for opinions here, but I'll just add that it's not stated that Galadriel slew anyone in these late ideas. It is not stated that Galadriel ever killed anyone at any point.

Point is: no _specific_ references. Not in any text published to date.

And I'm aware of the texts about the Nissi's ability to fight, for example, or in what circumstances they would fight, but none of that will change the matter of explicit, certain references to Galadriel.


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 17, 2021)

ZehnWaters said:


> Did we necessarily get rid of her burning ambition to rule a realm of her own? That CAN be construed as being a flaw.


She didn't have such desire in the version you are refering to, the Unstained Galadriel version.




ZehnWaters said:


> So...she DID make the Lembas, then?



Yeah her daughter wasn't there in Lorien to make it. And her granddaughter as well, wasn't there. Galadriel personally made them herself. Also, we finally got confirmation on why Arwen didn't gift lembas to the Fellowship. It was simply because the cornes and recipes were only available in Lorien. And Elven ropes were only available there as well. What about Elven Cloaks then? I guess those were Lorien-only as well; only possible to create in Lorien. Or else Arwen would've gifted them to the Fellowship in Rivendell, surely Arwen must've learned the skill from grandma, and she would've put it to good use for the Fellowship if it was possible. I also love how even the Elven Smiths of Rivendell can't create a quality sheath for Anduril, but in Lorien you can find the best magical sheaths. And I love how it seems Galadriel was supposed to be the only Noldo in Lorien in earlier versions and she upgraded Lorien almost singlehandedly without the help of any fellow Noldor. 






ZehnWaters said:


> Did the Valar even HAVE cauldrons after the stories changed into the Quenta Silmarillion from the Book of Lost Tales? Or did you mean the mirror was a story element that was descended from Irmo's cauldron


This Irmo's device doesn't appear in later versions. But its resemblance to The Mirror of Galadriel is quite a nice touch still. 




ZehnWaters said:


> I knew the Mallyrn were. Not so much a parallel, though, as they were just FROM Valinor. Did they use Telain in Valinor?


I don't recall if they used them. But the parallel here is that Galadriel literally changed the name of Lindorinand into Lorien and Laurolindoranen (sorry for misspelling) just to resemble the name of Irmo's land and Yavanna's Golden Tree. Also, Lorien's other name is associated with dreams and phantoms, again a resemblance to Irmo. Also, Galadriel literally sang to create a forest. Like her teachers before her.


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 17, 2021)

Elthir said:


> I realize you might be looking for opinions here, but I'll just add that it's not stated that Galadriel slew anyone in these late ideas. It is not stated that Galadriel ever killed anyone.
> 
> Point is: no _specific_ references. Not in any text published to date.


Imagine fighting fiercely/heroically in desperate defence of bunch of not-so-strong-elves against a brutal merciless assault, and you somehow manage to not kill anyone. She did fend off some assaults. In one version she even killed enough to save one ship. I guess in the other version she saved more ships because in the other version she didn't flee in middle of the fight.


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## Elthir (Sep 17, 2021)

> TheManInTheMoon wrote: In one version she even killed enough to save one ship.



In what version did Galadriel specifically "kill" enough of anyone?


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 17, 2021)

It's not stated that she killed them, it's stated that she fought them and she saved the ship. So the implication here is that she either knocked them out (!!!) or killed them or something like that.

I totally agree that she must've avoided killing as much as possible. But you know, if we are being realistic and logical, we know it wasn't possible to not kill anyone in such a chaos of a battle.


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## Elthir (Sep 17, 2021)

I don't agree it wasn't possible, especially if one is trying not to kill. By the way, as I just jumped into this part of the discussion, are we simply talking about the very late adumbrated tale here? _" . . . indeed she with Celeborn fought heroically in defense of Alqualonde against the assault of the Noldor, and Celeborn's ship was saved from them."_

Just this much? If so, that's very brief and leaves all kinds of scenarios open, in my opinion!

Anyway, TheManInTheMoon, are you planning on answering my request for the two texts you were referring to earlier, especially the first one concerning the "radical" alteration (Finrod with Finarfin)?


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 17, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> Yeah her daughter wasn't there in Lorien to make it. And her granddaughter as well, wasn't there. Galadriel personally made them herself. Also, we finally got confirmation on why Arwen didn't gift lembas to the Fellowship. It was simply because the cornes and recipes were only available in Lorien. And Elven ropes were only available there as well. What about Elven Cloaks then? I guess those were Lorien-only as well; only possible to create in Lorien. Or else Arwen would've gifted them to the Fellowship in Rivendell, surely Arwen must've learned the skill from grandma, and she would've put it to good use for the Fellowship if it was possible. I also love how even the Elven Smiths of Rivendell can't create a quality sheath for Anduril, but in Lorien you can find the best magical sheaths. And I love how it seems Galadriel was supposed to be the only Noldo in Lorien in earlier versions and she upgraded Lorien almost singlehandedly without the help of any fellow Noldor.


So...why did you say I know she'd made it?


TheManInTheMoon said:


> This Irmo's device doesn't appear in later versions. But its resemblance to The Mirror of Galadriel is quite a nice touch still.


Yes.


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 17, 2021)

Elthir said:


> I don't agree it wasn't possible, especially if one is trying not to kill. By the way, as I just jumped into this part of the discussion, are we simply talking about the very late adumbrated tale here? _" . . . indeed she with Celeborn fought heroically in defense of Alqualonde against the assault of the Noldor, and Celeborn's ship was saved from them."_
> 
> Just this much? If so, that's very brief and leaves all kinds of scenarios open, in my opinion!


I....gotta side with ManInTheMoon on this one. It's extremely unlikely that in this fight NO Noldor died. The Teleri wouldn't have been cursed like the Noldor because they were defending themselves. That they're not explicitly stated to have killed Noldor doesn't mean it didn't happen. The Orcs with Uzi's argument and all of that.


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## Elthir (Sep 17, 2021)

ZehnWaters said:


> I....gotta side with ManInTheMoon on this one. It's extremely unlikely that in this fight NO Noldor died. The Teleri wouldn't have been cursed like the Noldor because they were defending themselves. That they're not explicitly stated to have killed Noldor doesn't mean it didn't happen.



For my part, that discussion with TheManInTheMoon began about Galadriel specifically though (and the saving of a ship), and I was still talking about her.

Again, all kinds of scenarios are available given the brevity of the adumbrated tale, with respect to what Galadriel did or did not do, and in what measure (how much) she fought.


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