# Which is more romantic???



## HLGStrider (Aug 4, 2002)

All right. I've listed the three couples who get hitched in the Lord of the Rings... it was tempting to dig up some Silmarillion couples, but I thought I'd be fair to those who haven't read that yet. 

My personal favorite is Arwen and Aragorn, the world's greatest romance... sigh...

Faramir and Eowyn make a really close second, however. Please explain your choice into the ground!!!


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## Gamil Zirak (Aug 5, 2002)

I voted for Sam & Rosie. I think Aragorn and Arwen's relationship is very overated in the book. I think that Faramir and Eowyn's relationship is only there because Aragorn wouldn't take Faramir as a wife. So, that left me with the two hairy footed hobbits.


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## Ravenna (Aug 5, 2002)

I voted for Aragorn andArwen, mainly I think cos its a truly fairy tale type romance, fall in love, overcome almost insurmountable odds and live happily ever after, (yes I know they didn't live for ever but they were happy as long as they lived).


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## Rangerdave (Aug 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Gamil Zirak _
> *I think that Faramir and Eowyn's relationship is only there because Aragorn wouldn't take Faramir as a wife.*



That would be quite the ceremony wouldn't it. who would wear the white, who would toss the boquet. Where would the childern live?

Oooh you say that now. Reminds me of the phony marriage of Marcus and Franklin on Babylon 5.

RD


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## Gamil Zirak (Aug 5, 2002)

Just a simple mess-up on my part. I meant to say Aragorn wouldn't marry Eowyn (Although, I'm still sure he wouldn't have married Faramir either.).


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## In Flames (Aug 5, 2002)

Voted for Sam and Rosie, cause they are such a darn cute couple 
And i also think Sam really needs a woman.


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## Gamil Zirak (Aug 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by In Flames _
> *And i also think Sam really needs a woman. *


Yeah. He was kissing Frodo on the way to Mount Doom. Poor guy.


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## Lantarion (Aug 5, 2002)

This is a good poll, Elgee. Well done. 
I have commented on this once before, but this is the true place for it. I think Tolkien doesn't really take the relationships in his books very seriously; what makes me think this? The incredible rigidness of almost all of the 'couples' in the book, the LotR in this case. Just look at Aragorn + Arwen! If the two really loved eachother they wouldn't speak like freakin' poets whenever they meet! And never have I read (at least I don't remember) that either Aragorn or Arwen would smile when together. It all just seems very businesslike..
Éowyn + Faramir is abetter case. They seem to actually spend time together like wooing lovers might. But even here the atmosphere is often so tacky you could bite down on it.
So the lesser of three evils in this case would be Sam + Rosie. They obviously seem to have feelings for eachother, and I can recall their smiling at eachother (or grinning, whichever) and Rosie actually showed a little worry when Sam went off to fight the invaders of Hobbiton. They just seem more relaxed around eachother, I suppose. 
Well, there you have it. 

Oh, and before I forget: welcome to the forum, In Flames! Great name.


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## Tar-Ancalime (Aug 5, 2002)

I rated it by how I felt when I read the parts:
Faramir and Eowyn: I sniffled and felt like crying
Arwen and Aragorn: I said sweet, tragic
Rosie and sam: I said awww how cute

I picked F and E, because when he said whatever he said to her when he asked her to be his wife ( I really don't remember) I was like...awww....he's soo sweet...and romantic... and if my memory serves well didn't Eowyn say she didn't want to marry a king? And then Faramir said...I'm not a king...and she kinda more or less collapsed into Faramirs embrace


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## pohuist (Aug 5, 2002)

I picked A and A b/c seems to me like true romance even if they didn't talk about love/smile much -- they had business to take care of: crown and all, wasn't the right time for love b/f that. Think of the sacrifice she made to be with him. Think of the life he endured to be with her.

F and E seems more like it hapenned b/c Aagorn wasn't available. Once she met Faramir, etc. she realized she doesn't want a king, that before she just wanted the escape, not necessarily Aragorn. But she only realized that afterwards, should Aragorn be available before, the story could have been different.

S & R -- cute but not my idea of romance. House, kids, nice life -- cute. Besides, Rosy seems too possessive.


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## Melara (Aug 6, 2002)

I voted for E & F. I've loved that couple since I read the LOTR first time. I somehow like best that part when Eowyn asks Faramir something like doesn't he matter if people ask him why he married a wild Rohan girl and he simply answers no (and doesn't he even kiss her?!?).It's also very nice to see how Eowyn becomes a little warmer person.


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## Tar-Ancalime (Aug 6, 2002)

Melera you are so right about that. Even though E found aragorn very cute....who doesn't??


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## HLGStrider (Aug 6, 2002)

I think there is something forever about Aragorn and Arwen. You have to take into account that she gave up immortality for him. When I read through the books the first time I was a little surprised about Arwen... when I read through the second time I caught all the little hints...
Bilbo: Why didn't you go to the feast? The lady Arwen was there...

Can you just see his grandfatherly teasing smirk?
The scene with them in the Hall of Fire... where Arwen gives Frodo the look.

Aragorn choosing to sing about Luthien on Weather Top.

All the Lothlorien hints.

The Standard...

The whole Tale of Aragorn and Arwen....
I'M MELTING!!!


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## Tar-Ancalime (Aug 6, 2002)

oh yeah, give spooty-pooty elf lady and her pet human all the romantic stuff! It is common knowledge that F & E are so good together. F gave up being all powerful for E and E gave up being a warrior for rohan. What's not romantic about that!


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## Gamil Zirak (Aug 6, 2002)

You still can't disclaim the fact that Aragorn was Eowyn's first choice not Faramir. That's not romance. That's left overs.


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## Tar-Ancalime (Aug 6, 2002)

Still, If I was in the same room with Aragorn he'd be my first crush too! Besides F was not leftovers...sometimes true love is found the second time...It's like they grew on eachother.


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## Theoden (Aug 6, 2002)

Famimir and Eowyn. Because it was so sweet and unique. They were both going through loss and confusion and it was beautifu the way Tolkien braught that to being
I really loved it. 
-me


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## HLGStrider (Aug 6, 2002)

Arwen was not snooty. She was reserved. I'm not reserved. Eowyn was not reserved. Arwen was reserved. 

Besides, when she first met Aragorn he was 19 and she was 2000... took awhile to warm up to the kid, I imagine.


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## Tar-Ancalime (Aug 7, 2002)

suuuuurrreee! F and E's relationship kicks bum and you know it....they were both really sad and going through terrible losses and unknowingly in the midst of it fell in love.The way it should be....ahhh love


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## Eomer Dinmention (Aug 7, 2002)

Aragorn and Arwen, to me personally sounds a little cheesy.

like Romeo and Juliet, nah thats a bad way of putting it.

Arwen gives up her immortality just so that she can spend her life with the man he loves.

Where Faramir and Eowyn, now that is a nice way. Both of them, were like sick and confused. And they end up realising that they love each other. Now that is nice lol 

~Eomer


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## Tar-Ancalime (Aug 7, 2002)

good point eomer, if you reallly think on it Arwen giving up her immortaliy is like a man entering marrige giving up the right to do other women.


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## Lantarion (Aug 7, 2002)

Hmm, now I see that perhaps F + E was the best hitch-up.. Drat! I wish I could change my vote.. Ah, but I can!


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## Gamil Zirak (Aug 7, 2002)

I still don't see what's so great about F&E. They couldn't have the things they wanted (F-King of Gondor; E-Aragorn) so they were just stuck with each other.


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## HLGStrider (Aug 7, 2002)

I never thought Faramir had that much of a lust for the crown...


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## Tar-Ancalime (Aug 7, 2002)

If they as you put it GZ got stuck with eachother...who was faramir in love with before E????I mean how simplistic can you be. F and E's elopment was so perfect. F and E complete eachother! and as elgee said...F was not really in love with being a king anyways and E had a big crush on Aragorn, but it was just a crush...and it was so much better than her previous admirer (wormtounge)


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## HLGStrider (Aug 7, 2002)

If you're going to have a crush have it on perfection...
Still, I think that the end is the best part of the A&A thing... It is so tragically beautiful. That is what makes them my favorite.

Estel, Estel!!!"


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## Gamil Zirak (Aug 8, 2002)

I'm not sure who Faramir was "in love" with. I just feel bad for him. He is Eowyn's second choice. That doesn't seem like true love to me.


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## Tar-Ancalime (Aug 8, 2002)

I will not argue that E did not want Aragorn, but later she thought about not wanting to marry a king...and f and E grew on eachother...so it's romantic!


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## Gamil Zirak (Aug 8, 2002)

I'll give you that, but I still think A and A was cheesey.


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## Maeglin (Aug 8, 2002)

I voted for Aragorn and Arwen, because by choosing to stay in middle-earth with Aragorn Arwen also died for him, what better way to show love for someone than by dying for them.


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## Lantarion (Aug 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Gamil Zirak _
> *I'll give you that, but I still think A and A was cheesey. *


Chee-capital Z! 

And good point Glorfindel; I have thought of that twist in the plot a bit sudden and out of place because of the coolly interpreted relationship of A&A..


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## Tar-Ancalime (Aug 8, 2002)

A and a was the big cheese of the cheezy!


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## HLGStrider (Aug 9, 2002)

Romantic and beautiful... cheesy is kissing in front of half a town's population...  
Walking through a forest and making vows is classic.


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## Gamil Zirak (Aug 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> *Romantic and beautiful... cheesy is kissing in front of half a town's population...
> Walking through a forest and making vows is classic. *


Maybe the relationship was romantic, but the way Tolkien wrote it was cheesy. It's like an aside. We find out they are getting married, then several years later we find out why.


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## emopansy (Aug 9, 2002)

aragorn and arwen are to beren and luthien sam and rosie makes me laugh. while eoywn and faromir seems tangable more imperfect and thats what makes it closer to perfection in a lititure standpoint.


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## Gamil Zirak (Aug 9, 2002)

The only think A and A have in common with Beren and Luthien is they were differente races. And in all actuallity, Arwen was les than one-half elf so it wasn't that big of a change there.


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## Tar-Ancalime (Aug 9, 2002)

whatever to both of you!


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## Gil-Galad (Aug 10, 2002)

I like Eowyn and Faramir.Persnolly Eowyn is the greatest women(human,not elvenwomen)in ME she is able to love truly and deeply.About Faramir I think he's responsible character who has a romatic heart,although his brother and father aren't so romatic .


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## HLGStrider (Aug 10, 2002)

I would've given Faramir's best trait to be his compassion and understanding. He was comforting and true hearted...
Eowyn's best trait is her passion.

Aragorn and Arwen's best traits as a couple is fidelity and loyalty. Arwen's as a person is self sacrifice.
Aragorn's as a person is courage.


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## tur-khelednen (Aug 10, 2002)

given that arwens mother was 100% elf there is no way in Angband that arwen was less then half elven


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## Grond (Aug 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Gamil Zirak _
> *I still don't see what's so great about F&E. They couldn't have the things they wanted (F-King of Gondor; E-Aragorn) so they were just stuck with each other. *


Has anyone read The Lord of the Rings. Faramir did not want to be King. He was happy from the very beginning to do his duty.


> _from The Two Towers, The Window on the West_
> increased my sorrow, you two strange wanderers from a far country, bearing the peril of Men! But you are less judges of Men than I of Halflings. We are truth-speakers, we men of Gondor. We boast seldom, and then perform, or die in the attempt. Not if I found it on the highway would I take it I said. Even if I were such a man as to desire this thing, and even though I knew not clearly what this thing was when I spoke, still I should take those words as a vow, and be held by them.


Had Faramir desired to be King, he would have taken the Ring as his brother Boromir tried to do. There is also this, as well.


> _from The Return of the King, The Houses of Healing_
> Suddenly Faramir stirred, and he opened his eyes, and he looked on Aragorn who bent over him; and a light of knowledge and love was kindled in his eyes, and he spoke softly. 'My lord, you called me. I come. What does the king command?' 'Walk no more in the shadows, but awake!' said Aragorn. 'You are weary. Rest a while, and take food, and be ready when I return.' 'I will, lord,' said Faramir. *'For who would lie idle when the king has returned?'*Here, he doesn't sound at all like someone who desires the Kingship of Gondor.



As for Eowyn...


> _from The Return of the King, The Steward and the King_
> ' 'I wished to be loved by another,' she answered. 'But I desire no man's pity.' 'That I know,' he said. *'You desired to have the love of the Lord Aragorn. Because he was high and puissant, and you wished to have renown and glory and to be lifted far above the mean things that crawl on the earth. And as a great captain may to a young soldier he seemed to you admirable. For so he is, a lord among men, the greatest that now is. But when he gave you only understanding and pity, then you desired to have nothing, unless a brave death in battle.* Look at me, Eowyn!' And Eowyn looked at Faramir long and steadily; and Faramir said: 'Do not scorn pity that is the gift of a gentle heart, Eowyn! But I do not offer you my pity. For you are a lady high and valiant and have yourself won renown that shall not be forgotten; and you are a lady beautiful, I deem, beyond even the words of the Elven-tongue to tell. And I love you. Once I pitied your sorrow. But now, were you sorrowless, without fear or any lack, were you the blissful Queen of Gondor, still I would love you. Eowyn, do you not love me?' Then the heart of Eowyn changed, or else at last she understood it. And suddenly her winter passed, and the sun shone on her. I stand in Minas Anor, the Tower of the Sun, she said; and behold the Shadow has departed! *I will be a shieldmaiden no longer, nor vie with the great Riders, nor take joy only in the songs of slaying. I will be a healer, and love all things that grow and are not barren.' And again she looked at Faramir. 'No longer do I desire to be a queen,' she said.* Then Faramir laughed merrily. 'That is well,' he said; 'for I am not a king. Yet I will wed with the White Lady of Rohan, if it be her will. And if she will, then let us cross the River and in happier days let us dwell in fair Ithilien and there make a garden. All things will grow with joy there, if the White Lady comes.'


She realized that what she felt for Aragorn wasn't love but a type of infatuation with his inner greatness. She also realized that Faramir was the Man for her. He wasn't a second choice... he was the only RIGHT choice.


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## Grond (Aug 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by tur-khelednen _
> *given that arwens mother was 100% elf there is no way in Angband that arwen was less then half elven *


I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. There is no doubt that in terms of Elvish blood, Arwen has more than 50%. She still is, nonetheless, considered of Elrond Peredhil's (Half-elven) house. She is a Peredhil or a half-elven... meaning that she and her brother's also are able to make their own personal choice as to which race they will belong. Arwen chose Man (or Woman).

By the way, Tar... please quit acting like a 14 year old girl.... errr... ummmm.... wait a sec... you are a 14 year old girl!!!    .....Nevermind!!


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## Aerie (Aug 11, 2002)

I voted for Arwen and Aragorn - the bridge scene is just so darn sweet!


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## Grond (Aug 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Aerie _
> *I voted for Arwen and Aragorn - the bridge scene is just so darn sweet!  *


Err... Umm... Aerie, you are in the book section. There was no such thing as a bridge scene in the book. Reload and try again.


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## HLGStrider (Aug 11, 2002)

Then I don't suppose you'd appriciate me taking the time to rant and rave about passing 3000 posts... would you??? Yeah... bad idea. I'm just sooooooooooooo happy... THEY'LL NEVER CATCH ME NOW AND ALL WITHOUT SPAMMING!!! rambling, yes, spamming, no 

What about Aragorn standing in Lothlorien dreaming about her...? Isn't that just a great picture? or them walking barefoot on that same hill... sigh.


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## Tar-Ancalime (Aug 11, 2002)

It's a nice image...but the image of two down-trodden lovers kissing in the healing gardens is just as pretty and more romantic


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## HLGStrider (Aug 11, 2002)

The fact that they've been waiting patiently for forty years makes it bettter... and then Elrond puts her hand right in his... sigh...


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## Tar-Ancalime (Aug 11, 2002)

Oh yeah! Well,  ! The fact that E and F have been suffering together and drawn together and comforted eachother and fell in love with the mordorian grey sky is soo much better


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## HLGStrider (Aug 11, 2002)

... and at the last minute as he is dying he tells her to forsake him and leave... desperate to save what he most loved and is regretting "destroyin"... but she stays with him... ESTEL ESTEL!!!

I need to go take a bath. bye


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## Gamil Zirak (Aug 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Tar-Ancalime _
> *from your point of view it is offensive and rude, but in my case it's a great way to politely end a conversation.*


It's not a polite way to end a conversation. It's something people say when they know that they are wrong and don't have any good arguments left, but don't want to admit it.


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## Tar-Ancalime (Aug 12, 2002)

so if it is!!! I still think that F and E are the most romantic couple


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## Gamil Zirak (Aug 12, 2002)

You are entitled to your opinion (even if it is wrong). (J/K about the wrong part).
Well here's a theory: Opinions are like feet. Everyone has them, but they stink.

Actually it's suppossed to be excuses, but opinions sometimes can fit in there.


I just don't find any of the stories romantic. That's all.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Aug 14, 2002)

I just can't get over this one:


> Opinions are like feet. Everyone has them, but they stink.


 It's great!

Anyway, maybe I can help get this romantic feet discussion get back on track. I like the Aragorn/Arwen romance best. Think about how when Arwen chose to give up her immortality she was not just going to die and go back to Valinor like all other elves do when they die. She had to go where men go - the answer to which no one knew. So not only was she never going to see her family again, she would never be able to go to the blessed realm (Valinor) by sea or when she died. She had to go into uncharted territory. That thought alone is a pretty major sacrifice and seems to justify A/A's romance.


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## Gil-Galad (Aug 17, 2002)

Ok.I think that A/A love cannot be characterized as love between human beings(although Aragorn is man and Arwen choses mortal life)their relationship is more spiritual.However F/E are closer to us,to the usual people.Their feelings are more similar to ours.That why I'll say it again that their I like them more than A/A.


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## LadyGaladriel (Aug 17, 2002)

A AND A are totally romanitc and unbelviably sweet . They made the ultimate sacrifice . E & F were just two lonely people .


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## Nenya Evenstar (Aug 17, 2002)

Gil-Galad:

What is your thought process behind your saying that an elf and a human have a different type of love than two humans? Isn't love the same feeling to anyone - elf, human, dwarf, or hobbit?


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## Tar-Ancalime (Aug 17, 2002)

Imagines dwarf-elf child (ewwwww). Neways....I guess its what you as a person believe is romantic and all.


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## Gil-Galad (Aug 17, 2002)

Nenya Evenstar,I mean that their relationship is more spiritual than full of passion.Arwen as a person is quite serious and far far away from the human beings as a charecter and lifestyle probably.Aragorn is something much more than a man.He's a king,he lived in Rivendell and his way of thinking changed,his lifystyle too.I mean that E/F relationship can be described as closer to those of our own life.


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## HLGStrider (Aug 18, 2002)

Personally I think the spiritual side of their relationships adds a rather potent touch... 

Aragorn and Arwen

He was a king without a throne,
She Elven princess fair.
He seemed doomed to walk alone,
But she was doomed to care.

With hope beneath the evening sky
They swore to a love so true,
For though it meant that she might die,
They knew what they must do.

She cast aside immortality.
He struggled towards his goal.
Their love seemed wrought and frailty,
But they were bound heart and soul.

He fought the evil darkness
And scorned its evil lord.
She waited until he'd gained success;
He fought with reforged sword.

When at last, his kingdom won,
Before sad good-byes were said
In the white tower, gleaming in sun,
The loyal pair was wed.

She became as human kind.
He was a great king of men.
Forever the Elvish kingdom pined.
She was never among them again.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Aug 18, 2002)

I can see your point, Gil-Galad, but I still think A and A's relationship was the most romantic especially since I view love as a spiritual thing. I agree with Elgee. See, people even make poems about them...


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## HLGStrider (Aug 18, 2002)

I'd be willing to bet there are F&E or even S&R poems... 

I gave that poem to my sister to read, and she said something about me being hopeless.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Aug 19, 2002)

I'm sure there are poems about F&E and S&R; however, no one has posted any.  No, your poem isn't bad - I like it! Tell your sister to try to write something like that...


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## Raamalooke (Aug 19, 2002)

Personally I think A & A is the most romantic couple. Their romance may be overrated but it's still the most pure in my mind. True love is a spiritual connection that withstands all odds.


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## Tar-Ancalime (Aug 20, 2002)

yeah sure! we all know that Elgee is mad...so why are u listening to her??(j/k) F & E is not like A & A cause when A& A met human A saw Elf chick A and said like something about luithilen and elf chick A laughed. But F & E met under horrible circumstances and came together in such a sweet way


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## Nenya Evenstar (Aug 20, 2002)

Hmmm... no one is trying to convince us A/A followers (yes and you F/E followers too)  that Sam and Rosie's romance is the best. Just noticed that...


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## Diamond Took (Aug 31, 2002)

*Farmir and Eowyn*

because they are the most ROMANTIC couple, if you want romance.

Arwen and Aragorn would be the classic couple, and Sam and Rosie would be the cutest couple.


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## Tar-Ancalime (Aug 31, 2002)

Hahahahahhaha, you wish you had space boots well only dark queens can have them LOL!

Diamond you are quite correct about that. Just glancing at the pick for the most romantic american made movie:Casablanca . It's not romantic in todays sense of the word...It's your classic, immortal romance which brings a tear to the eyes of most people. Same is such with the relationship of Arwen and Aragorn. They both sacrifced (or rather Arwen) sacrificed her immortality as Rick in Casablanca sacrficed having his one true love belong to him alone for her happiness.

Eowyn and Faramir, really is a fairy tale relationship. You have Eowyn, her father slain and being contained inside an invisible prison. And Faramir recovering from a trama of his fathers own death as well. Neither of them can leave and as it is in most fairy tales or chic flics of a trite character , Faramir and Eowyn grow on each other. Arwen and Aragorn shows a more realistic picture of sacrifce. Not that Eowyn and Faramir don't have to sacrifice thier lifestyles in the process of their love, but they have a lesser sacrifice than that of Aragorn and Arwen.

Sam and Rosie,is cute...I really cant put it any other way


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## Windfola (Aug 31, 2002)

Fascinating discussion, Elgee & Tar!

The romance between Faramir & Eowyn is a pleasant aspect of tLotR:

Scenario: Warrior Woman of the great Horse Realm falls for future King of Gondor, who already has given his heart to Princess of Elven realm of Rivendell. Future King must leave Warrior Woman with a bad case of Unrequited Love for obvious reasons--and for quest along the Paths of the Dead. Warrior Woman pines away, then sneaks off to wage war against the forces of evil on the Pelennor Field, where she socks it to the Lord of the Nazgul, but incurs grievous wound in the process; thus, winding up in the Houses of Healing in Minas Tirith, where she meets Faramir, Steward-son of Gondor, who is suffering from his own wounds. The two fall in love (although Eowyn resists at first), and eventually marry and move to Ithilien, where they live happily ever after.

But, I have to agree that the romance between Aragorn & Arwen is more heart-wrenching:

Immortal Elven Princess of Rivendell (Wow! She was over 2,000 yrs. old when she met 20-year-old Aragorn the first time! Talk about "robbing the cradle"  ) meets young mortal man, descended from the line of the Numenoreans and rightful heir to the thrones of both Gondor and Arnor. They fall in love. But her father, the Elven lord Elrond (who was actually only half-Elven, but that is another tale in itself), does not particularly want the relationship to prosper--no doubt because of its serious ramifications--and so he sets Aragorn on a very long path of 'worthy deed-doing' in order to prove himself. ("You shall neither have wife, nor bind any woman to you in troth, until your time comes and you are found worthy of it.") Only after many long (well, at least to Aragorn) years of toil and travel, living in exile as a 'Ranger of the North,' fighting the evil creatures of ME, and protecting the Free Peoples (whether they knew it or not), he got his Big Chance: to do mighty deeds during the War of the Ring. The Ultimate Test. He succeeds, but only after great trials & tribulations. Then the Lady Arwen, beloved of her people and cherished by her father, gives up the gift of immortality--and an eternity in the Blessed Realm--to become Aragorn's bride and Queen of Gondor & Arnor. Her sacrifice is difficult for us mortals to fully understand; thus, her love for Aragorn is shown to be of tremendous depth. One of the saddest parts of tLotR is in the bit of "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" in Appendix A, recounting the death of Aragorn, and the passing of Arwen:

' "Estel, Estel!" she cried, and with that even as he took her hand and kissed it, he fell into sleep....But Arwen went forth from the House, and the light of her eyes was quenched, and it seemed to her people that she had become cold and grey as nightfall in winter that comes without a star. Then she said farewell to Eldarion, and to her daughters, and to all whom she had loved; and she went out from the city of Minas Tirith and passed away to the land of Lorien and dwelt there alone under the fading trees until winter came....There at last when the mallorn-leaves were falling, but spring had not yet come, she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after, and elanor and niphredil bloom no more east of the Sea.'

(SIGH!)

It always fills me with such sadness....  

So, I have to cast my vote for A&A as Most Romantic Couple because of what they had to endure in order to be together--the sacrifices on both their parts, and the ultimate sacrifice on Arwen's. The passage quoted above really brings to light the impact of the 'Doom of Men' upon her.

As for Rosie & Sam...well, their relationship is so sweet and innocent that it tugs at my heartstrings in a very different way!


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## Windfola (Aug 31, 2002)

Grond: So, you're 48, too, eh? That makes us a couple of young-at-heart, romantic MAMEs (Middle-Aged Middle Earthers  ) And don't worry about the tears--I cry every time I read that passage, too (SIGH!  )

Tar: Thanks!  I just thought I'd throw a little romantic "fairy dust" into this thread. Tolkien wrote that beautiful, moving passage, and the case for A&A being the Most Romantic Couple in tLotR can't be stated any better, I'll warrant!

Nenya: That's sweet of you to say. Tolkien really made quite the romantic statement through the relationship between Aragorn & Arwen. Hmmm...that must mean he had a bit of the romantic soul, wouldn't you say?


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## Nenya Evenstar (Aug 31, 2002)

> Nenya: That's sweet of you to say. Tolkien really made quite the romantic statement through the relationship between Aragorn & Arwen. Hmmm...that must mean he had a bit of the romantic soul, wouldn't you say?



Thanks.  Yes, he must have had a VERY romantic soul. What didn't he have? I'm just glad you posted that because now maybe those who still insist that F/E's romance was the most romantic may read that and see the truth...


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## Tar-Ancalime (Aug 31, 2002)

windfola it can't..but why be modest.LOL. but what standard of romance nenya


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## Nenya Evenstar (Aug 31, 2002)

> but what standard of romance nenya



For Tolkien or F/E?


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## HLGStrider (Aug 31, 2002)

Did not... Elgee sticks out her tongue and then sulks... 

Well, I think what makes A&A work for me is simply A... meaning Aragorn. I couldn't help falling in love with the guy... he is just so perfect and great and wonderful and love worthy.... he makes the team.


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## Tar-Ancalime (Aug 31, 2002)

I see what you mean but faramir struggles for his fathers respect. The shadow of his brother Boromir is gigantic even in death. He's a man who yearns the right to be his own not an imitation. Eowyn,a woman, who grew up amoung men. Above all she yearns to ride, fight and Die like men. But Something about faramir is so amazing, his aura is so amazingly beautiful she sacrifices everything she's ever wanted to be in love and to be loved by such a good man.


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## HLGStrider (Sep 1, 2002)

Let's seperate them for six decades and see how he does then...
No one is denying that Faramir is a great guy.
Arwen is a woman awaiting her doom, facing a difficult choice. Teetering on the edge she is pushed over onto the mortal side by her love for Aragorn. That doesn't sound that romantic... actually.
Aragorn, lonely, confused by his future, suddenly above him and so great, stumbles upon something even greater and further above him, something as far away as the moon and yet as real and touchable as the Elenor blossoms of Lothlorien. In return it loves him, but it is still the moon. It takes a real man to wait sixty years for the moon.


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## Tar-Ancalime (Sep 1, 2002)

well in human span six decades is alittle much...but think about this

...A grey sky...your in a garden which normally shines...but is only a grey mass surrounding you it's true beauty veiled. Your alone, your own mortality threatend and all you have is yourself. Than you see in front of you a man, he is handsome, but not vain, and most sombre. he looks sad and troubled. However at the time you think little of it. All you want is out. To fight and die like your fathers before you. But instead you are in a dreary garden under a grey and colorless sky. Briefly you talk with the man, and from that moment each day you talk more. One day you are talking with the man as you normally do and he looks at you and professses his love, also professes his understanding that you do not return his love and does not wish to have his feelings hold you back. And in that one single moment, everything makes sense. You are perfectly happy, not anxious to get out and fight, but content in a garden, content in this man's embrace. Thus is the Story of Eowyn.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You, a wise and learned man, anxious but thoughtful are recovering from a wound of poison. You cannot release yourself, but nonetheless want out. You are greatly discomforted by the grey intensity of the sky, the endless evernight. Then light comes into your veiw, the light of female. although you can see her pain. She comes not to relieve his sadness, but to plea for her release. Her light is a contained light, flickering with uncertainty. After awhile and afew days goes by, you talk more with the poor girl. And grow to love her more. You begin to almost connect with her, as if you've known her forever. In the doom of evernight you profess your love, knowing full well that she does not return it. But to your suprise she says, "I do not want to marry a king." You take your move, she looks into your eyes, and you both kiss, oddly enough the town is watching. Thus is the story of Faramir....


HOW IS THAT NOT MORE ROMANTIC ACCORDING TO THE IDEA OF ROMANCE TODAY???? okay...


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## Nenya Evenstar (Sep 1, 2002)

On the standard of romance:

My brain is turning in circles!!!! I don't know!!! I think I'm gonna stay out of this one. You both are doing more than a fine job without me. To tell you the truth I'm totally confused now about who's romance is the most romantic! They are both romantic in totally different ways!


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## Aranel Tinuviel (Sep 2, 2002)

Hmmmm...a while ago I thought this thread was about the most romantic couple in the trilogy! ^_^

Here's my two cents. I'd have to say Sam and Rosie. They're so darn CUTE! I don't find Aragorn and Arwen particularly romantic (not to mention I am fiercely jealous of her...I WANT ARAGORN TO MYSELF!), and in Eowyn and Faramir's case...she seems to be settling with second best. 

Namarie!
Aranel Tinuviel


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## Elfstone (Sep 2, 2002)

I voted for Aragorn and Arwen because she was willing to give up her elven immortality for a mortal man. But I am pretty jealous of Aragorn because I think Arwen is super beautiful.


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## Lady of Rohan (Sep 2, 2002)

Personally I think that Arwen and Aragorn are more romantic because Arwen gave up her imortallity for Aragorn... the ultimate sacrifice


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## Grond (Sep 18, 2002)

This is a lengthy quote from the Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien which alludes to the situation at hand to a degree. I apologize for its length, but it sheds some light on this matter from the author's perspective.


> _from The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, Letter #244 circa 1963_244 From a draft to a reader of The Lord of the Rings
> 
> [A fragment at the top of which Tolkien has written: 'Comments on a criticism (now lost?) concerning Faramir & Eowyn (c. 1963).']
> Eowyn: It is possible to love more than one person (of the other sex) at the same time, but in a different mode and intensity. I do not think that Eowyn's feelings for Aragorn really changed much; and when he was revealed as so lofty a figure, in descent and office, she was able to go on loving and admiring him. He was old, and that is not only a physical quality: when not accompanied by any physical decay age can be alarming or awe-inspiring. Also she was not herself ambitious in the true political sense. Though not a 'dry nurse' in temper, she was also not really a soldier or 'amazon', but like many brave women was capable of great military gallantry at a crisis.
> ...


I'm not sure who's side this will give support but it is one of the most poignant explanations of the characters that I've yet found. Hope this refuels this argument.


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 18, 2002)

Aragorn and Arwen,very closely followed by Eowyn and Faramir.
But Sam and Rosie are nice,cute,...they're ok too.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Sep 18, 2002)

Thanks Grond!  After reading that I'm still of my same opinion. I still think that it is much more romantic to give up your immortality for someone because you love them so much, than to go on loving someone and yet love another at the same time.


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## gate7ole (Sep 18, 2002)

Eowyn and Faramir.


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## Popqueen62 (Sep 22, 2002)

*I defenetely voted for....*

Aragorn and Arwen because she gave up immortality for Aragorn, although I am very jealous of Arwen because Aragorn is totally cute! But Their relationship rocks!


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## Goldberry (Sep 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *Aragorn and Arwen,very closely followed by Eowyn and Faramir.
> *


I'll definitely agree with that. 

Sam & Rosie are cute, but I don't see them as romantic.


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## Wonko The Sane (Oct 3, 2002)

Alright...Arwen and Aragorn's story made me cry...but I just identify so much with Eowyn that I can't vote against her...
Actually the story that's most ROMANTIC is Arwen And Aragorns...the story that's most powerful to me is Eowyn and Aragorn...and the story that makes me the happy is Eowyn and Aragorn.


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## Wonko The Sane (Oct 3, 2002)

I would LOVE to be an Eowyn who is loved by Aragorn...
But I know that Aragorn isn't right for me...as much as I love him.

So I am patiently waiting my beautiful Faramir to whisk me off to Ithilien..
 Land of the Moon...Beautiful.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Oct 3, 2002)

As for me, my fav. Tolkien romance is Aragorn and Arwen. Always has been and always will be. I used to be in love with Aragorn so that's why. When I was little I would say that my man had to have "The Look". That was the look I pictured Aragorn having.  Ugh... that's the first time I've ever told anyone that.


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## Wonko The Sane (Oct 7, 2002)

I just love Eowyn...I do...
She's suffering from this unrequited love that I can so identify with.

I love a boy. So much.
And when we were together I did everything for him. Sacraficed so much.
I gave my happiness so that he could be happy...and I gave up so much to give him what he needed. I rarely thought of myself.

Eowyn was the same...if she was going to die...she wanted to die near Aragorn.
And I'm sorry..but Arwen never had it rough. Her life was perfect. She got the man she loved. She is a beautiful immortal elf, and big deal giving up your immortality for someone you love when your actually doing what makes you happy. It's not THAT big of a sacrafice if you're not going to be happy without the mortal man you loved...

Eowyn knew she only had one lifetime...and one chance with Aragorn and she knew it would never happen...that's so much harder...that's so much worse.
I love that story...I love Eowyn...the scene where she confronts Aragorn...I cried and cried and I read her part out loud...and I thought..."I wish I could have played her in the movie...I would BE her."

I'm just so glad she found Faramir.


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## HLGStrider (Oct 8, 2002)

If a guy wants you to sacrifice for him he isn't worth it.
Aragorn never wanted Eowyn to sacrifice for him. He wanted her to get over it because he knew it couldn't be. 

I also wanted to play her in the movie. I could do that.


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## Wonko The Sane (Oct 8, 2002)

No...the guy never wanted me to sacrafice for him...he never meant for it to be that way...
It just happened...he hated what I was put through...we're still friends though.

And yeah...Aragorn was very noble about it. He was all, "I don't love you. Get over it."
*rolls eyes* I don't like the way Aragorn handled it at all...at first he was understanding but then he blew her off...


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## HLGStrider (Oct 8, 2002)

What was he supposed to do? 
"Well, dear Eowyn, I am really in love with another woman and I have to go fight a war now, but I will take some time off and marry you just because you are so sincere!"

That'd work real well.

He handled it well... it was just a hard situation.


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## Grond (Oct 9, 2002)

Aragorn was in a horrible situation. He had dedicated his life to recovering his lost realm, largely so that he would be "allowed" to wed Arwen. All of his efforts and hardships would have been for nothing had he strayed from that path. And let us not forget that Tolkien illustrated that Eowyn had no true and deep love for Aragorn in the Houses of Healing. Eowyn responded to Aragorn's healing but not his calling. It took Eomer's voice to rouse her from her wanderings.

I am just as glad that Faramir found Eowyn. He is the most underappreciated of all the characters in the book. He spent his whole life playing second fiddle to his older brother... and yet it was Faramir that was truly the greater.


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## Wonko The Sane (Oct 9, 2002)

Faramir is one of if not the favorite of my LotR men.
I love his honesty and sincerety. He spent his life struggling because he was told he wasn't good enough, something I can identify with, and he was called foolish by his fool of a father when he intended to stand up for what he believed in.

I'm glad he and Eowyn found eachother. They both grew up feeling like second class citizens and to see two such like souls fall in together is very comforting and romantic.

As for how Aragorn dealt with the situation I agree with Grond. He was in a miserable situation what with the whole, "Don't ask for my daughter's hand until you're king" thing...but he really could've been more sympathetic to Eowyn. To take her hand and say, "I'm sorry but I love another" rather than just say, "Ok. bye" and when she asked to fight say, "I do not agree with you, but I know I cannot stop you. I too know what it is like to want something you cannot have. You may come with me." He didn't seem to be empathic to her needs at all...it made me sad.
But I love Aragorn anyway.


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## HLGStrider (Oct 10, 2002)

But Aragorn was probably old fashion... considering the time frame he was not old fashion, but he was what we would consider old fashion meaning if he were here today he would be old fashion but since he isn't here today and was there then he was not old fashion... (I just love doing sentences like that... they are one of the few great pleasures in life. ).

Aragorn, if he had taken Eowyn along, would not have been able to think because he would've been so worried about having a woman along. He would've seen it as his duty to protect her, and you have to admit he had other things on his plate. He left Merry behind for a similar reason (though he probably knew Merry would go off with Theoden to war that was considered safer than the Paths of the Dead). Aragorn is not a politically correct character. I'm not particularly pc myself, and I agree with him. Though we later see that Eowyn could handle herself, he had no way of knowing that she could fight and therefore no way of knowing she'd be useful. If your six year old sister wanted to come along with you on a four day backpacking trip in the Cascades would you let her? It's about the same except much harder back packing trip and a more capable (but still doubtfully capable enough) sister.


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## Wonko The Sane (Oct 10, 2002)

My sister's 7! So HA!
And no...
But that's different...Eowyn was an adult, as was Merry.
But Aragorn knew Merry was to stay with Theoden and knew he'd go to war. He also knew that where they were going wimpy hobbits wouldn't do well.
But Eowyn...she was like...Ice Maiden...she was tough...all you need to do is look at her to know that she could have handeled it.

I think Aragorn secretly liked her and didn't want to have to resist the urge to sneak into her tent for a bit of a snog latenights.  Ok...not really...
But I sure think he could've handled it better.
Even IF he thought she couldn't fight...


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## Tyaronumen (Oct 10, 2002)

Let's not ignore the most important reason that Aragorn didn't allow Eowyn to accompany him on the Paths of the Dead...

She was the niece of one of his most important allies, who certainly did NOT approve of the notion, and to take her along would have been entirely dis-respectful of the wishes of Theoden -- something that Aragorn was not inclined to do.


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## Grond (Oct 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Wonko The Sane _
> *Kids?! KIDS?!?! I'm 19 THANK YOU!!!
> 
> I prefer the term "Young Adult" or even "Sexy Vixen"! Watch yourself, old man!!
> ...


When you're 48, anyone under 30 is just another kid.  J/K in case you didn't pick that up. 

Ty, so as to not get completely off topic *hangs head in shame* I completely agree with your post. 

Aragorn needed Theoden and Eomer as allies. The worst thing he could have done was to ravish Eowyn and then cart her away with him. Think how that would have looked.


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## Wonko The Sane (Oct 10, 2002)

I know, Grond. I picked up on that...I was being silly. 

And as far as the ravishing Eowyn thing goes...First of she'd have been WILLING so it wouldn't have been a "ravishing"...and second of all I'm pretty sure that Theoden and Eomer both would've approved of Eowyn bedding down with THE ONE KING RULER OF ALL MEN!!!!
It's a power thing...  so if he wanted it...Aragorn would have had NO trouble getting it!


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## HLGStrider (Oct 10, 2002)

Oh yeah... being able to sleep with a powerful or important guy is a great honor...  

I don't know how rampant premarital sex was in M.E. during this period, but that Aragorn would consider it honorable to "do it" with Eowyn is a bit of a stretch for me... as is him doing anything dishonorable. 

She may have been ice maiden to you, but to Aragorn she was a sad looking girl of about sixty years younger than him. He admired her and pitied her, but I don't think he would've believed her capable of big bad things, if you know what I mean. I never imagined Eowyn to be that muscle bound...


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## Wonko The Sane (Oct 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> *Oh yeah... being able to sleep with a powerful or important guy is a great honor...
> 
> I don't know how rampant premarital sex was in M.E. during this period, but that Aragorn would consider it honorable to "do it" with Eowyn is a bit of a stretch for me... as is him doing anything dishonorable.
> ...



I agree on all counts...you're right...I've been told.

It's true...Aragorn looked at Eowyn as a sad, pathetic little girl who loved what could not be...
And that's why it's so sad...because if that's how he saw her...well...I'M that sad, pathetic girl too...
And if Eowyn didn't have a chance I most CERTAINLY do not.


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## HLGStrider (Oct 10, 2002)

I don't think she settled for Faramir. I think that he was sooooooooo good that he made her realize he was what she wanted... and I think he's pretty cute too.

He wouldn't be an option if he wasn't romantic...


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## Eledhwen (Oct 10, 2002)

*I might have known - romance turns to sex. Ah well!*

I voted for Sam and Rosie. Frodo's counsel to Sam, right up until the Grey Havens, made it all much more poignant than A&A or F&E's romances. Also, I'm not into that Mills and Boon stuff (though I'm reliably informed that the USA publications are better than the British ones). No castles, no crowns, just a year waiting, a quiet agreement to wed, then dozens of kids (including Elanor the fair), then after a long and full life, Rosie dies, and Sam too departs from the Grey Havens.


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## Wonko The Sane (Oct 10, 2002)

I don't think she settled either...I was just being silly.

As for Sam and Rosie they're too boring and I hate Sam...

Although what Frodo said to Sam before he passed from Grey Havens DID make me cry...
*tear*


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## Mrs. Maggott (Oct 10, 2002)

Regarding why Aragorn refused to take Eowyn on the Paths of the Dead: to begin with, she had been placed in charge of her people by her King. She could not walk away from that responsibility without the King's blessing to depart. If Aragorn had granted her request (and he knew WHY she asked to go, which made it even harder for him), he would have deliberately violated the will of the King of Rohan, which he would not have done. 

Remember, when the King and his retinue are returning to Helm's Deep from Orthanc and they learn of riders approaching (Rangers from the North), Aragorn dismounts, draws his sword and stands at the King's stirrup. This is the act of a vassal, a servant, NOT a king. He has placed himself in Theoden's service for the time being (until he is called away by what he sees in the palantir). To have violated the will of the man under whom he had taken service, however briefly, would have been the most base ingratitude and considered a betrayal of the most ignoble kind. Hardly the sort of act Aragorn would consider given his nature.

As for her youth and his age, that means nothing. His father and mother were fairly close to the same ages when they married. Aragorn's father waited long before marrying and then chose Gilraen who (if I remember aright) was not much older than Eowyn. If Aragorn had not loved (and been betrothed to) Arwen, a match such as this might have appealed to him (after all, how better to insure the eternal friendship of Rohan than to have one of their women become Queen of Gondor?). So, I don't think there was any problem with their ages, especially as Aragorn is probably about 40 years old in normal, rather than Numenorean years.

And as for any, well, less than gentlemanly behavior, somehow I cannot imagine it happening although I have always harbored a secret question regarding the man's experience with women. After all, he fell in love with Arwen when he was only 20 and never loved another woman...that's a long, long, long time with no end in sight - at least at that point in the story.


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## HLGStrider (Oct 11, 2002)

Well, he did live to be 200 and something... What I mean is that he wouldn't start feeling panicky about age creeping up on him and hence the need to rush heir siring activities...

and his mother had told him to remain wifeless for awhile.


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## Eledhwen (Oct 11, 2002)

Tolkien's stories are marinated in his own morality, which was Christian, Roman Catholic and early 20th century (probably in that order). Not even the worst behaviour of the baddies describes sex, though it is implied in the corruption of species and the breeding of orcs, but that's as close as any description gets.


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## Mrs. Maggott (Oct 11, 2002)

Overt sexuality is not usually presented in the type of mythic tale on which Tolkien based LOTR. There are, of course, references to such things but they are couched in the language of the medium: "heirs of my body", etc. And in the story of Celebrian, Arwen's mother, who was captured by orcs and suffered such "anguish" thereby that she fled Middle Earth and went into the West to find healing, there is an underlying hint that as she was not maimed or killed, her ordeal may have indeed been sexual in nature.

Nevertheless, do not equate Tolkien's Catholicism with a rejection of sex. That particular problem is limited to Irish Catholics and is a heresy (I believe it is called Janism) which postulates that it is somehow sinful to enjoy a sexual relationship even within the bonds of marriage. Fortunately, it appears that this particular heresy is limited to the Irish as the French, Italian, German, English and other Catholics do not appear to be affected therewith.

Tolkien's literary style does not openly refer to sexual matters any more than other prosaic bodily functionis. For instance, there is lots of EATING in LOTR, but no reference at all the the natural consequence thereof. This type of story does not deal with "total reality" and therefore, we are not burdened by some of the more earthy details we find in "modern" literature (thank God!).


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## Eledhwen (Oct 11, 2002)

I did not intend to convey the impression that Tolkien's Catholicism was a rejection of sex, but that his Christianity (expressed through Catholicism) and the age in which he wrote, would have made him less likely to use sex, as many modern authors do, to season his stories.


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## Mrs. Maggott (Oct 11, 2002)

Certainly Tolkien's background - including his Faith - influenced his writing. But I believe that had he attempted any type of literature other than that for which we know him and it had become necessary to mention the subject (NOT like the present day "romance novels", naturally) he would have included whatever was necessary to make the story "work". 

However, the type of fiction he did write glossed over the more prosaic details of existence - including sex. This is best seen in Tolkien's battle scenes - which, of course, are absolutely NOTHING like Mr. Jackson's - all that blood and gore! Tolkien's work is jewel-like in its purity, even in the darkest and most unpleasant aspects of the story.


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## HLGStrider (Oct 11, 2002)

Which makes it much better... 

I love how you can start a post by adding to someone's sentence like that... I should do it more often.

I don't think it is really all that necessary to include sex in a story to make it realistic, no matter what the genre. Sometimes, if it figures big in the plot (and it can and still be a decent book) it may need to be in there, but you can always deal with it with some delicacy. I think we've been trained in the last few generations to look down on delicacy as prudishness. Really it is a part of good life. 

While I have read books where it wasn't delicate (and enjoyed a good deal of them) I prefer ones where it is.


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## Eledhwen (Oct 12, 2002)

*Well said Mrs Maggott and HGL!*

Tolkien's omission of the prosaic and (from LotR) the religious has removed all 'taint' from his stories for practically all humanity, leaving the story to shine through, as Mrs Maggott says, jewel-like. Really *fabulous* stuff.


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## Grond (Nov 2, 2002)

You all need to go into HoMe X, Morgoth's Ring and read Laws and Customs among the Eldar. It goes into a mild discussion about child rearing and makes it clear that they make em the old fashioned way. 

As for the smooth style of anti-violence good ole JRRT employs, you seem to forget these choice morsels of anti-violence.


> _from FotR, The Bridge of Khazad-dum_
> But even as they retreated, and before Pippin and Merry had reached the stair outside, a huge orc-chieftain, almost man-high, clad in black mail from head to foot, leaped into the chamber; behind him his followers clustered in the doorway. His broad flat face was swart, his eyes were like coals, and his tongue was red; he wielded a great spear. With a thrust of his huge hide shield he turned Boromir's sword and bore him backwards, throwing him to the ground. Diving under Aragorn's blow with the speed of a striking snake he charged into the Company and thrust with his spear straight at Frodo. The blow caught him on the right side, and Frodo was hurled against the wall and pinned. Sam, with a cry, hacked at the spear-shaft, and it broke. But even as the orc flung down the truncheon and swept out his scimitar, Anduril came down upon his helm. There was a flash like flame and the helm burst asunder. The orc fell with cloven head. His followers fled howling, as Boromir and Aragorn sprang at them.


Oh... and there is always the chapter in The Silmarillion, The Rape of the Silmarils.


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## HLGStrider (Nov 2, 2002)

I didn't say there was no violence in Tolkien's work... I remember Pippin getting crushed by a big bad guy he's just nearly disembowled... or something like that. 

Also I didn't deny they made kids the old fashion way... I was just affirming that Tolkien wasn't an explicit writer... There was something in my HC bio about him.... half a minute. It was talking about the Fall of Aurthur he was working on... how it was one of the only works which Tolkien deals "explicitly with sexual passion". 

My point is he didn't do it often and it does add a sense of purity to it. You know, no one is undressing etc... 

Blood and books and blood on the screen are totally different of course. When somone gets stabbed on a book it is normally up to the reader to paint how "gorey" it is. You can say things like "chunks of flesh", etc, but it is all up for your imagaination. For instance I always saw that Pippin scene as a bunch of black goo followed by kind of an icky smell and Pippin passing out. 


In case Tar is around... I THINK ARWEN AND ARAGORN ARE AHEAD OF FARAMIR AND EOWYN!!!

YEHAA


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## Tar-Ancalime (Nov 2, 2002)

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! I can change that....
I mean it's all a question of what love means to you...

Is it the chick-flick romance or the deeper romance...

Would you rather meet your love by chance, and have it develop overtime, until that one special day, when so unexpectedly his/her love is expressed...if so chose eowyn and faramir


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## Xanaphia (Nov 6, 2002)

I got to say the Aragorn one, they're just like your perfect couple, but Sam and Rosie are SO cute together too!!!!


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## aDaHe (Nov 6, 2002)

i'm on ur side 2!!
Arwen's love was pure because she knew that she was giving up eternity with the elves for the next hundred years or so with Aragorn.

what more could any man ask for in a woman. giving up all that they might have to be with ME(Aragorn in this case).

PS:ladies i would suggest that if you want to make some moves on me that you make them in the like fasion as Arwen, except that you bring the good thing into the relationship as well so i can enjoy both of you!!!
-heheheME


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## HLGStrider (Nov 7, 2002)

Elgee sees a Tar inspired change in user title coming on...

I do not deny that Eowyn and Faramir needed each other... However, Aragorn and Arwen were so loyal that it knocks your socks off... and so beautiful... and ESTEL! ESTEL! and he passes away and she goes to Lothlorien and then joins him whereever men go... sigh...


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## RosieGamgee (Nov 17, 2002)

I voted Sam and Rosie! They both are such sweet people. And certainly devoted. And they were not some great king and queen, or something, but he was a humble gardener and she was the loyal girl-next-door who waited for him to come home from his battles to marry him and they lived happily ever after. I envy Rosie, except that she had thirteen (or maybe fourteen, I'm not sure) children. That is not something I wish for.


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## Isengrin (Nov 19, 2002)

Its hard to believe how Faramir&Eowyn earn 34 voices and Aragorn&Arwen 38 

Of course that the love story between Arwen and Aragorn is the most romantic... its a beautiful story, and sad... 

Arwen abandonned her immortality to stay with the one she loved, and she didnt wanted to return to the West, cuz the memory of her love would never finish... 

Like Beren & Luthien

Faramir&Eowyn, them, that was a mere normal love story, simple and quick.

Rose & Sam love story was beautiful too... but i guess we cant compare


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## aDaHe (Nov 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Isengrin _
> *Its hard to believe how Faramir&Eowyn earn 34 voices and Aragorn&Arwen 38
> 
> Of course that the love story between Arwen and Aragorn is the most romantic... its a beautiful story, and sad...
> ...



that is right you can't

aragorn and arwens love was more than just helping each other patching after loss, or because she waited at the shire for him...
it was the selfless giving of all that they each had for each other...
arwen gave him her self giving up her imortality
aragorn gave up a companion in the place where he went where he died to give her back a chance to go over to the west!

this is true love not what f&e or S&R had....


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## Tar-Ancalime (Nov 19, 2002)

however, i enjoyed the simplicity of the relationship, its what made it good. Like a fairy tale of sorts, it's all happy.


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## Eledhwen (Nov 20, 2002)

This thread is about romance, which has to be Aragorn and Arwen. But if we were talking about Love, then it would be a wider subject. The definition is in the bible (Jn 15:13) "Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends". Contenders would be Gandalf (for the nine), Boromir (for Merry and Pippin), Sam (for Frodo), Merry (for Eowyn and Theoden), Pippin (for Beregond and Gondor) and more. The Lord of the Rings is full of love.


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## Tar-Ancalime (Nov 20, 2002)

...why? we meant couple love...not biblical love


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## Eledhwen (Nov 22, 2002)

> _from Tar-Ancalime:_ ...why? we meant couple love...not biblical love


Not mutually exclusive. Read Song of Songs (sometimes called Song of Solomon).


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## Tar-Ancalime (Nov 22, 2002)

They're very sweet true, but it was praises to a God, not an ordinary man , just in figuritive language...The dark lord and I hardley talk! sides, thats my internet life...not my real life


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## HLGStrider (Nov 24, 2002)

That's on topic... 

Let's see... do I have anything to say on topic?

Hmmmmmmmmmmm....

I love the way Arwen and Aragorn's relationship is subtly hinted at the entire trillogy.


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## Tar-Ancalime (Nov 25, 2002)

you have a great point...but still E and E are much better because in ROTK, it lights up the sixth book of the trilogy with a certain glow.


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## aDaHe (Nov 28, 2002)

but thought it was a bit of a surprize with e & f a&a where never supposed to wed and yet everyone was waiting for it you finally happen (those subtile hints!!!)


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## Mablung (Jan 21, 2003)

I really didn't feel as much love between Eowyn and Faramir as I did Aragorn and Arwen. Faramir had to badger Eowyn (or so it seemed to me) to get her to like him whereas Arwen gave up her place in Valinor without even a second thought for Aragorn.


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## Mablung (Jan 21, 2003)

Well then if Eowyn didn't like Faramir is first whats so wrong with Arwen not liking and laughing at Aragorn at first?


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## HLGStrider (Jan 21, 2003)

Obviously nothing. It was a good hearted laugh because he had warmed her heart with his amazement.


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## Mablung (Jan 21, 2003)

Yeah if it said that she pointed laughed then threw something at Aragorn then it would be different.


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## HLGStrider (Jan 21, 2003)

I can just see it now... in the scene where he meets her.

"But I thought you were Luthien Tuinevil of whom I was singing."

Arwen snorted at the snot nosed human.
"Shows how much you humans know. She's been dead for centuries.. Get lost you baby..."


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## Dhôn-Buri-Dhôn (Jan 22, 2003)

Seems to me we're trying to compare apples and oranges...

In the world of LotR, not everyone is created equal. Arwen is halfelven, immortal and exalted. Aragorn, too, is noble-born, a direct descendant of Numenorean kings. That means a lot in Tolkien's cosmos.

Faramir and Eowyn are a different kettle of catfish, however. Both are a cut above the "ordinary folk" - Eowyn's a daughter of a king of Rohan (several steps removed from Aragorn's lofty status), and Faramir is a mere second-son of a "caretaker" of Gondor.

A & A are the more "epic" pairing. There's an air of inevitability about their relationship, which even Elrond understands (in the book, at least). They seem to be more a product of their ancestry, more ruled by fate and less by choice; they are somehow bound together by their stars.

E & F, however, are much closer to a "modern" romance -- two people who find one another after each passes through hardships and (in at least one case) a painful, unrequited love affair. On one level, they simply settle for one another, but in the end this only strengthens their bond.

Personally, I feel more empathy, more closely connected, with E & F. It's a more realistic relationship, more like one I might experience in fact rather than fiction. A & A is more like a storybook romance - human prince meets fairy princess. Such encouters are rare these days!

In short, A & A is the kind of relationship we *think* we want; E & F is the kind we really get -- if we're lucky.


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## HLGStrider (Jan 22, 2003)

A good analysis... 
As hard as Romance is to measure, I think this is more of an opinion poll than a fact question.


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## Saucy (Jan 22, 2003)

*the love triangle in the story*

if you really wan't to know i agree that Arwen and Aragon are quite the couple!
but it almost seems that Eoywn had a thing for strider(aragon) also. it must of been difficult for tolkien to determine how to end the love part of the story that's why i think he used fahmir so that eoywn was not left alone.


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## Tar-Ancalime (Jan 22, 2003)

I agree with all that....but then again i agree with anyone who thinks Eowyn and Faramir are better


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## redline2200 (Jan 22, 2003)

I'm gonna say Aragorn and Arwen, just because Arwen gave up her immortality for Aragorn. (Although I think the Beren and Luthien is a much better story!!)


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## Tar-Ancalime (Jan 23, 2003)

Come on! How realistic is Arwen and Aragorn in a relationship, even to those in the age of infancy betrothals?!? Faramir and Eowyn is like so normal, so easy to relate to. Two mortals, who both will die...much more romantic than sad, like Arwens and Aragorns.


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## Éomond (Jan 23, 2003)

I liked Faramir's and Éowyn's relasionship more *but* we got to see *alot* more of Aragorn and Arwen and there whole story is great.


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## JMacEye (Jan 23, 2003)

I would have to go with Aragorn and Arwen. They loved each other for decades and had born the sorrow of separation and sacrifice....Arwen is willing to give up _immortality_ for the love of Aragorn. There marriage will be bittersweet for all.

Eowyn was on the rebound. Not so romantic to me.

Sam and Rosie....sweet


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## Tar-Ancalime (Jan 23, 2003)

romantic for me because, she found love where it was not expected....tried to ingore it...but love pushed its way thru....and she was healed as faramir declared. Sweet methinks


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## HLGStrider (Jan 23, 2003)

Maybe I should just start backing Sam and Rosie... sigh... 

There is something of romantic perfection in Aragorn and Arwen. You can just see the look in his eyes when he first saw her, amazed, immediately in love, and nearly desperate...


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## Tar-Ancalime (Jan 24, 2003)

but perfection is so dull!


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## HLGStrider (Jan 24, 2003)

You're just jealous... 

How do we know perfection is boring? Boredom is a fault so perfection would not include it... so perfection isn't boring.
It's just impossible.


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## Elf Goddess (Jan 25, 2003)

Aragorn and Arwen


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## xime i love OB (Jan 25, 2003)

i think the cutest couple are arwen and aragon their love is just so touching and kind of unreal that is just a really lovely love story!
bye!


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## Tar-Ancalime (Jan 25, 2003)

Rosie and Sam are 'cute'...Aragorn and Arwen are idealistic...Faramir and Eowyn is normal


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## moon cloud (Jan 26, 2003)

F and E are the best. It's a happy ending for both of them, as they had both been feeling so sad before. With arwen and aragorn, their time together may have been happy, but ultimately the ending was very sad.


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## HLGStrider (Jan 26, 2003)

Humph... It was beautifully tragic. They joined the mystery that is the doom of man... Faramir and Eowyn didn't live forever either... we just get to hear about Arwen and Aragorn.


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## Tar-Ancalime (Jan 26, 2003)

but Arwen lived on, after aragorns death, in sadness and despair...for years...But Eowyn was FINALLY content with her life, she was not missing 'immortalitiy' She was finally 'home'/.


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## HLGStrider (Jan 26, 2003)

For goodness sakes, it wasn't that long. In fact she died within a year!

So there.

And considering that Faramir was about ten years older than Eowyn and women live longer than men, she probably lived without him for fifteen years!


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## Tar-Ancalime (Jan 26, 2003)

Your overlooking the bestest point! Eowyn was sad I think Gandalf/wormtoung( depending on if you've read the book or just seen the movie said



> But who knows what she spoke in the bitter watches of the night, when all her life seemed shrinking, and the walls of her bower closing in about her, a hutch to trammel some wild thing in



Which basically sums up her feelings and despair before she found contentment with faramir...


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## HLGStrider (Jan 26, 2003)

So Eowyn's better because she is more desperate?


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## Tar-Ancalime (Jan 26, 2003)

harsh! Shes not desperate, shes sad. I mean that wormtounge stalking her...I'd be horribly depressed...and aragorn isn't bad looking...and Faramir pityed her, but he also grew to love her, and made it his job to show her comfort and be able to trust. 

Does that makes sense? It doesnt even to me!


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## elfgirl (Feb 4, 2003)

Aragorn and Arwen, no contest. I mean, it's an elf and a mostly human who fall in love... even though they ARE related (distantly), I really think that they are romantic. I stand by my opinion, too.


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## Tar-Ancalime (Feb 4, 2003)

I dont blame you for seeing the obviousness of there relationship...it's romantic...but...not better than faramir and eowyn!


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## HLGStrider (Feb 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ??? _
> *I voted Aragorn and Arwen because that is the only couple that were showed in the movie so far. *



uh... this is the book section though... Have you read the books?

I think you have based on other places I've seen you. What's your opinion based on that?

Also, have you read the Tale of Arwen and Aragorn in the Appendixes?


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## aDaHe (Feb 5, 2003)

yes i have and i think that it is beautilful in it's sadness.

btw what about beren and luthien (sp?>)


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## balrog (Feb 5, 2003)

my vote is for Sam and Rosie, simply due to the fact it seemed like a 'first love' coupled with the innocence found therein.


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## Beleg (Feb 5, 2003)

Ewoyn and Eomer. The passage from the chapter_The field of Cormallen_ Won the contest for me. The most explict romanticism that Tolkein wrote, and sweet at that.


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## HLGStrider (Feb 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by aDaHe _
> *yes i have and i think that it is beautilful in it's sadness.
> 
> btw what about beren and luthien (sp?>) *



I wanted to leave out the Silmarillion, just for the sake of clarity. I didn't want to have to decide if I should include Findulas and Turin, so tragic, Tuor and ... oh dang... I'm drawing a blank... Isolde is the name of the girl in the Aurthurian legend of Tristen.. so that isn't it... It started with an I... blah...

You know what I mean...

and also their are others, I believe... not many, but I didn't want to go into it.


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## Goldberry344 (Feb 5, 2003)

Faramir and Eowyn were way more romantic. i mean, they like saved eachothers lives. Without Faramir, Eowyn would have gone into battle to kill herself, with out Eowyn, Faramir would have givin up his will to live. how much more romantic does it get?


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## 10000 strong (Feb 5, 2003)

I think it's a tie between Faramir and Eowyn / Aragorn and Arawen.


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## Tar-Ancalime (Feb 6, 2003)

true...but it should be the opposite because they lived for eachother, faramir and eowyn...they found a renewed life for themselves where all the old wishes were far away.


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## Beleg (Feb 6, 2003)

Are we allowed to talk about Silmarillion. 

From Sil, 

Findulias and Tùrin. 

Hùrin and Morwen.

Beren and Luthein.

(in order)


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## HLGStrider (Feb 6, 2003)

I didn't want to get into the Sil, partly because of the section we are in, partly because some people here haven't read it, partly because I just didn't want to...

He he

Arwen lived and died for Aragorn. That takes more devotion.


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## Goldberry344 (Feb 6, 2003)

Arwen wasnt really involved in the story enough to count as a romance character.


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## Remnant (Feb 6, 2003)

My favorites aragorn and arwen ... their love is enduring .. it is grounded in more than a momentary thing ... She gives up immortality for him ... I just cried ... he sacrifices being with her to bring the world from the brink of doom ... 

Since he was raised by Elrond as a son, he could have stayed and lived there .. correct? 
{BTW could Aragorn have sailed with them to Valinor?}

Eowyn and Faramir are second;I wish Tolkien had given them more time in the books .. 
Arargorn and Arwen have the appendix which tells of their love ...


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## Tar-Ancalime (Feb 6, 2003)

You peple are sooo closed minded! UGG! Just because thats the main romance (if any) displayed. You cant just ignore that Faramir and Eowyn in the end lived for eachother!


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## HLGStrider (Feb 6, 2003)

It is NOT the main romance displayed. You have to read the Appendix to really understand it, for gosh sakes. In the book it is just these amazing little hints...

No, Aragorn could not have gone across the sea. Men in general weren't allowed to, and the hobbits only went because they were ring bearers. 

Aragorn and Arwen were timeless.

He was loyal and devoted.
She was loyal and strong.


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## Tar-Ancalime (Feb 7, 2003)

And Faramir was sympathetic and kind, Eowyn was...sad, but later through Faramirs care and love became happy!


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## Remnant (Feb 7, 2003)

I said I can't wait to see Faramir and Eowyn portrayed. 

Arwen and Aragorn are just my particular favorite romantic couple ...  

Tolkien showed two couples ... 
They are different ; but yet EACH story is beautiful. 

One couple has lived long, and was betrothed long, and loved long, and has a past that Faramir and Eowyn can't compare with .. 

But then F/E have so much pain to overcome in the HOH and they help each other .. It will be so good to see them finally be happy ... 
`
"Different" love stories; but if Tolkien had taken them and stretched them out to the conclusion of their lives, I would bet that since Faramir is still at the end of the book Steward of Gondor ... that the couples would grow in love and respect for each other and you would see some similarites in their loves ...

the poll just ask what is more romantic? Each person finds certain things romantic .. it is OK to disagree ...


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## Eriol (Feb 7, 2003)

My favorite characters in the book are Sam and Aragorn, and I'd like to vote for Sam & Rosie only to redress the imbalance between their results in the poll. (i really prefer A & A). I think their stories are both fantastic. Let me offer a few quotes:

Letter 131



> ... the highest love-story, that of Aragorn and Arwen Elrond's daughter is only alluded to as a known thing. It is told elsewhere in a short tale, _Of Aragorn and Arwen Undómiel_. I think the simple 'rustic' love of Sam and his Rosie (nowhere elaborated) is _absolutely essential_ to the study of his (the chief hero's) character, and to the theme of the relation of ordinary life (breathing, eating, working, begetting) and quests, sacrifice, causes, and the 'longing for Elves', and sheer beauty. But I will say no more, nor defend the theme of mistaken love seen in Éowyn and her first love for Aragorn.



Letter 181



> ... I am only concerned with Death as part of the nature, physical and spiritual, of Man, and with Hope without guarantees. That is why I regard the tale of Arwen and Aragorn as the most important of the Appendices; it is part of the essential story, and is only placed so, because it could not be worked into the main narrative without destroying its structure: which is planned to be 'hobbito-centric', that is, primarily a study of the ennoblement (or sanctification) of the humble.


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## Beleg (Feb 7, 2003)

> Each person finds certain things romantic .. it is OK to disagree



That's the main theme Behind. I appericiate the quote's but we dont have to prove which Pairing Was most favored by Tolkien. We are just here to explain which pairing our heart likes.


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## Eriol (Feb 7, 2003)

> . I appericiate the quote's but we dont have to prove which Pairing Was most favored by Tolkien.



I'm glad you did appreciate them... and I was not defending my choice because of Tolkien's views. I don't think that someone who likes F&E better than A&A is wrong. 

I was just giving you some interesting quotes  .


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## HLGStrider (Feb 7, 2003)

you just are very virulent... he he...

virulent.
Like that word.
Always have liked that word...

I'm still going for Arwen and Aragorn, if only because Aragorn has a sense of honor and maturity we don't see in Faramir (though Faramir might grow into it, we don't see it in the books)>


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## Tar-Ancalime (Feb 7, 2003)

Indeed, I think faramir is more mature than his brother and keep in mind how old is aragorn...


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## HLGStrider (Feb 7, 2003)

Elgee fails to see what Faramir's brother had to do with this.

True, Aragorn makes that relationship for me... but I like Arwen as well. We just don't get such a chance to see into her heart and spirit. She is to us, calm beautiful, and almost unapproachable throughout the novel. She only develops a personality through reading the Tale of Arwen and Aragorn.


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## Tar-Ancalime (Feb 7, 2003)

you also fail to notice that Faramir and Eowyn *lived * for eachother. She did not longer wishes death.


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## Tar-Ancalime (Feb 8, 2003)

anyways back to topic! yes aragorn and arwen had such a relationship. But arwen had to give up something so she was not entirely happy. but faramir and eowyn were completely happy.


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## HLGStrider (Feb 8, 2003)

I said Romantic, not happy... If we were voting for happiest I'd vote for Sam and Rosie. 

If you look up romantic stories, most of them are sad in part...


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## Tar-Ancalime (Feb 9, 2003)

yes, and that scene (I beleive during umm...ROTK...book 6...i forget the chapter...anyway the scene where eowyn and faramir like kiss) That is so sweet! I mean shes not asking to go into battle, but to be loved. which is like so much betterer


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## HLGStrider (Feb 9, 2003)

What about the ending scene in Aragorn and Arwen?
Estel Estel!


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## Tar-Ancalime (Feb 9, 2003)

hmm...stupid scene...just joking...I just prefer that sort of protective instinct that faramir has for eowyn...reminds me of my 'faramir'


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## aDaHe (Feb 9, 2003)

protective??!!??

he was holding her emotional rope and keeping her in the house of healing.

she wanted to die and he was an emotional mess.

one hold bak the other untill the other doesn't want to go anymore and pow!!!! a wedding.

aragorn and arwen learnt of love in bliss and then in hardship.
theirs was a selfless love and was eveident in the final moment of aragorns life.


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## Tar-Ancalime (Feb 10, 2003)

it was protective in its own right...he wished he could protect her from her desires to do battle, and he took pity on her and i bet h really wanted to protect her


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## aDaHe (Feb 12, 2003)

he could have proven that and caught a few arrows in the chest for her in battle.


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## Tar-Ancalime (Feb 12, 2003)

what a waste of good human life...honestly


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## aDaHe (Feb 12, 2003)

the fact remains, 
faramir is a really femanine(sp?) kind of guy aay

aragorn spent the first hundred years of his life basically as a "james bond" of arda.

what a hero. he also met arwen on a romantic garden thingy like old beren did. he too like beren foresoke that relationship and went to do massive as mission against the enemy.


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## HLGStrider (Feb 13, 2003)

I wouldn't put Faramir down like that. However, he was young and had yet to develop the character of Aragorn.


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## Tar-Ancalime (Feb 13, 2003)

Oh so in other words...Aragorn sleeps with women then dumbs them..great analogie and how is faramir femine...OMG...you sound like denethor


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## Inderjit S (Feb 13, 2003)

What about Arwen and Aragorn? (I know it isn't a love story, but I think it's really sweet.) My god I'm an idiot.


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## aDaHe (Feb 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Tar-Ancalime _
> *Oh so in other words...Aragorn sleeps with women then dumbs them..great analogie and how is faramir femine...OMG...you sound like denethor *



who did he sleep with i ask you!!!!!

he saved himself for arwen when he could have had any number of chicks!!!


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## Inderjit S (Feb 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Inderjit S _
> *What about Arwen and Aragorn? (I know it isn't a love story, but I think it's really sweet.) My god I'm an idiot. *



Sorry, I mean't Eowyn and Aragorn. I'll keep my last comment,BTW.


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## Tar-Ancalime (Feb 17, 2003)

they are lost...

but it is so obvious that the love eowyn and faramir have is enriching to both parties.


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## aDaHe (Feb 19, 2003)

he sooooooo deserved better than that brat of a 'neice-of-a-king'

he should have settled for nothing less than some really royal chick from dol amroth or something.


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## aDaHe (Feb 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> *One hopes thou art joking, Adahe. *



thou hast no understood my messageth...

he wast of royal and kingly decent and shouldest notest havest settlest for anything less than a Queen (est)


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## Tar-Ancalime (Feb 20, 2003)

No, one's station in life has no affect on whom they fall for! And so your saying...Arwen should've married Glorfindel because he was an elf, and ARagron was human...TSK...TSK


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## aDaHe (Feb 20, 2003)

but golorfindel(sp?) was of her house her kin, her and aragorn was ok because they are kin from about 50 odd generations

faramir also feel in love from a chance meeting, he should however had a bit of brain and planned to go after a girl asap after his brother died to keep the life going...


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## xime i love OB (Feb 21, 2003)

i used to thin a and a are the best couple but i dont know now ok afther watch the movies the most important couple are a and a but rosie and sam are just cute 
f and e like u said are a real couple and they are perfect for each other and their story is beautiful but i donyt know why eowyn dont said that she loves him to and the way faramir tel her about what he feel it was more important than the way of aragon and arwen but thwy are difernt knid of love strys and the 3 are cute and god stories and cute all of them but
soo i think now that the 3 of them are good!


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## Remnant (Feb 24, 2003)

I voted for Arwen and Aragorn, because even though he is mortal and she is elfkind they are so beautiful together.    

They also bring the bloodlines together and for royalty that is important. 
Yes, Eowyn is the daughter of kings; BUT, Aragorn is more like Arwen. Also he and was raised by her father.

I think that Tolkien for whatever reason didn't know that there would be so much appeal for the love relationships in tlotr ..
He made the fellowship and forged them together. But didn't take the time to forge in the books the two important relationships.
I think he just assumed that everyone would understand that Aragorn was Arwen's and that was their choice like Luthien and Beren. When you have a diamond; why would you want a stone?
We know he could write it cause he put it in the appendixes ...

There are some modern fans that want Eowyn for Aragorn, but that doesn't flow right considering that Aragorn has saved himself for Arwen ... and visa/versa.
It would have been dumb to write that Aragorn says:" Arwen it was nice for a while,but I found this human and she is better for me .. thanks for the banner and the sword but ...
Sorry honey see you around!"

I wish he would have put more in there about faramir/eowyn too. I think it has so much potential to be a beautiful love story.
I am glad though that he let the characters play out to the end of themselves.
Oh and Rosie and Sam we don't see enough of them .. but they would be third, I think Tolkien had trouble writing relationships???

Ps ... I am grateful for the movie because they will, I am sure do what Tolkien didn't .
Arwen/Aragorn will shine and so will Faramir/Eowyn ..and Rosie and Sam ... We will spend much time crying!! With JOY and sadness ! I can't wait!!! :")


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## nollaig (Feb 24, 2003)

I'm going to be a little awkward here. Obviuosly i haven't seen the film Return of the King yet. However, based on the first 2 films, i would go for Aragon & Arwen. But i the book, I think the Faramir/Eowyn romance is best


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## HLGStrider (Feb 24, 2003)

We're only dealing with the books here. . . Good points, however.


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## Goldberry (Feb 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by aDaHe _
> *thou hast no understood my messageth...
> 
> he wast of royal and kingly decent and shouldest notest havest settlest for anything less than a Queen (est) *



Faramir is not of royal descent, he is of the noble family of the Stewards. He is not descended from Elros.

Eowyn, on the other hand, is descended from the Kings of Rohan. Her mother was sister to Theoden, so Eowyn's grandfather on her mother's side was King of Rohan. 

So Eowyn was more royal than Faramir. 

From a British point of view, I think Eowyn and Faramir would have been considered more or less in the same social class. But, from a USA point of view, who cares what class they are from? They fell in love! In terms of worthiness, she killed the Lord of the Nazgul, so I think she is worthy of the most noble of husbands


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## Tar-Ancalime (Feb 24, 2003)

Exaclty, faramir and eowyn are more realistic...that story can touch our lives more as people. Because its common, but singularly beautiful...


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## Eriol (Feb 24, 2003)

> Faramir is not of royal descent, he is of the noble family of the Stewards. He is not descended from Elros.
> 
> Eowyn, on the other hand, is descended from the Kings of Rohan. Her mother was sister to Theoden, so Eowyn's grandfather on her mother's side was King of Rohan.
> 
> So Eowyn was more royal than Faramir.



Er... not for a Númenórean. In Gondor, anyone with Númenórean blood would be considered more noble (though not perhaps more "royal") than any king from the "twilight peoples". Please refer to Faramir's speech to the hobbits in Henneth Annûn about the three kinds of men (light, twilight, darkness), and for Denethor admonishment when Boromir wanted him to claim the title of King, something in the lines of "in a lesser people, maybe we would be Kings already, but in a Númenorean Kingdom it would take several ages of the world before we took that title".

So that even if Éowyn belongs to a "royal" family and Faramir does not, she would, _in Faramir's own eyes_, be less noble than himself. Éowyn seems to recognize that when he is wooing her, something like "would your people accept that? a shieldmaiden from the wild northern people?". It seems she also thinks of herself as less noble than Faramir.

This is just an observation. I think love trumps all of this, and the more I think about it the more I like F & E. My favorite is still A & A, though.


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## Goldberry (Feb 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Eriol _
> *Er... not for a Númenórean. In Gondor, anyone with Númenórean blood would be considered more noble (though not perhaps more "royal") than any king from the "twilight peoples". Please refer to Faramir's speech to the hobbits in Henneth Annûn about the three kinds of men (light, twilight, darkness), and for Denethor admonishment when Boromir wanted him to claim the title of King, something in the lines of "in a lesser people, maybe we would be Kings already, but in a Númenorean Kingdom it would take several ages of the world before we took that title".
> 
> So that even if Éowyn belongs to a "royal" family and Faramir does not, she would, in Faramir's own eyes, be less noble than himself. Éowyn seems to recognize that when he is wooing her, something like "would your people accept that? a shieldmaiden from the wild northern people?". It seems she also thinks of herself as less noble than Faramir.
> ...



I think there is a difference between royalty and a group of people feeling superior to others. The Numenorian descendents think they are "higher" people, and superior to the others. In Middle-earth, there was a sense of you are either Numenorian, or you are not, and Numenorians should only marry other Numenorians. Eowyn is aware that the Gondorians feel superior to others, and she is aware that she is not "one of them", that is why I think she asked "would your people accept that? a shieldmaiden from the wild northern people?". But, it was a Steward who made Eorl the Young King of Rohan. Rohan is a free and independent realm. Eowyn is descended from Eorl, so she is royal. Faramir may feel equal to her because he is a Numenorian, and others may agree, but I don't think Eowyn has any less status than Faramir.


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## aDaHe (Feb 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Goldberry _
> *I think there is a difference between royalty and a group of people feeling superior to others. The Numenorian descendents think they are "higher" people, and superior to the others. In Middle-earth, there was a sense of you are either Numenorian, or you are not, and Numenorians should only marry other Numenorians. Eowyn is aware that the Gondorians feel superior to others, and she is aware that she is not "one of them", that is why I think she asked "would your people accept that? a shieldmaiden from the wild northern people?". But, it was a Steward who made Eorl the Young King of Rohan. Rohan is a free and independent realm. Eowyn is descended from Eorl, so she is royal. Faramir may feel equal to her because he is a Numenorian, and others may agree, but I don't think Eowyn has any less status than Faramir. *



THEY WERE A HIGHER PEOPLE!!!!
sorry i had caps on and didn't know it.

but it said in rotk that the steward line came from a while back and that they were of the line of the kings (in gondor) and that is also of dunedain descent.

he is way over her.

a & a was beautiful because they brught the line togather. 
they kind of love that they felt were more than enough to sever arwen from the elven kind and she obviously did because she had a love that e & f could not understand.

e & f had a love of mortals short and sweet.
a and a had a love of something greater then mortal and mortal,
they had a love that spaned the gulf between the two kindreds
like b and l.


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## Goldberry (Feb 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by aDaHe _
> *
> a & a was beautiful because they brught the line togather.
> they kind of love that they felt were more than enough to sever arwen from the elven kind and she obviously did because she had a love that e & f could not understand.
> *



I agree Aragorn and Arwen had a beautiful and immensely strong love, and what Arwen does to be with him is pretty brave. And I think that A&A's story is the most romantic. But why do you think Faramir and Eowyn can not understand the love of Arwen for Aragorn?

Faramir has to face the possibility of his own people looking down on him because he is marrying someone some Dunedain may consider "lesser". Eowyn has to leave her home (where she is of high rank) and the brother she loves, to live with him in Ithilien (where she may not get acceptance from all of the Dunedain). 
I would not consider theirs an 'easy' lot.


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## Tar-Ancalime (Feb 26, 2003)

Exactly Goldy, there relationship is a sacrifice of things farmilar and equally permant


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## aDaHe (Feb 27, 2003)

in the higher rank of things they talk about her (e) as the wild shield maiden of the north (or something like that)
he is their steward and so his marrying someone that gondor as a whole people absolutly love (the fact that they came with the forces that they did and helped to break the siege fo gondor) at the moment, who better could he have married???

here is my point, = arwen.

at this time apart from the lady galadriel(sp?) she was the fairest of the two kindreds in me. that she (a) chose to go with aragorn shows the fact she loved him enough to go with him.

e and f have their kind of love, a love of commrade and thats what got them started and after a while they evenutally jumped into bed ayda ayda ayda......
they shared a fate that was forced opon them while a and a especially arwen broke that fate that lay opon her and stayed with aragorn.

summary:a and a had a love that could shake the foundations of the fate of the two kindred as did b and l their forbearers.


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## LadyDernhelm (Feb 28, 2003)

I think that Faramir and Éowyn have the most "romantic" story. However, I never liked Faramir, and think Éowyn deserved better.  However, Aragorn and Arwen are a close second - EXCEPT for the fact that their story is very undertold in the books. I mean, seriously.


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## HLGStrider (Feb 28, 2003)

I liked Faramir and I liked Eowyn. . . However, I did like Aragorn a lot more than Faramir, and while I identified more with Eowyn I found Arwen more romantic.. . . Eowyn was just more interesting.


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## Tar-Ancalime (Mar 3, 2003)

I insist i am right, therefore my opinion is correct. I find your implications of nobility and birth right making eowyn 'worth less' than faramir because it is unfair to eowyn.(I am also american which is why i object to the whole birthright thingy)


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## Halasían (Mar 18, 2003)

What? No Aragorn/Eowyn affair??? 

Eowyn and faramir were more filled out in the story, but in the overall middle earth it would be Beren and Luthien.


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## Melko Belcha (Mar 18, 2003)

I had to go with Aragorn and Arwen. By Arwen giving up her immortality she also lost her family and her people, all for the love of Aragorn. That to me is a sign a deep love that very few people ever experience.


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## Idril (Mar 19, 2003)

Aragorn and Arwen come a close second - but they are rather like a celebrity or royal marriage. I like Sam and Rosie, simple folk with nothing else on the agenda except love, companionship and the procreation of more hobbits!


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## Rhiannon (Mar 19, 2003)

*Eowyn and Faramir*
They have been not just my favorite couple, but two of my favorite characters ever since I was six years old. My knees go out just at the thought. As for a defense of my position;

Aragorn and Arwen _are_ a very romantic couple, but the entire situation (waiting years and years, Aragorn having to complete a task- that is, become king) is a very Courtly Love thing- where the woman is a semi-unattainable ideal, the man must complete some great task to win her- and Courtly Love has just never done much for me (I have never figured out what is supposed to be romantic about Lancelot and Guinevere. Never). They are the Romantic Ideal, and I think Tolkien intended for them to be the Romantic Ideal (or rather, an echo of his original Romantic Ideal- Beren and Luthien. It’s quite clear who Tolkien’s favorite couple was). And this is all well and good and Romantic in the ‘capital R’ sense; but I personally do not get soppy over it. 

Sam and Rosie are far and away the cutest couple ever, and they give me a strong case of the warm fuzzies; but again, I do not get soppy over them. 

But Eowyn and Faramir, I get a stupid grin on my face and go all to mush. 

First off, *Eowyn was not on the rebound*. She was not ‘settling’ for Faramir. She didn’t even really love Aragorn, not in the romantic sense. She was drawn to his greatness and nobility and saw him as a way out of the cage she felt she was in. Faramir knew this- “As a great captain may to a young soldier he seemed to you admirable.” Eowyn and Aragorn (though originally they did end up together, before Tolkien invented Arwen. Faramir showed up on his own; Tolkien said he was “sure I did not invent him, I did not even want him, though I like him, but there he came walking out of the woods of Ithilien.”) would never have worked as a couple because their relationship would not have been one of equals; Eowyn did not love Aragorn as a man, but as a great warrior and king, and the caring Aragorn had for Eowyn was of an older man for a hurt child. Even if Arwen had not been waiting, Aragorn would not have been the right man for Eowyn. 
When Eowyn saw that Aragorn would not give her what she wanted- a way out, power, greatness- she sought it a different way, through death and glory in battle. By the time she met Faramir she had _already_ abandoned the idea of loving Aragorn. Faramir was not her second choice; he was the choice she hadn’t realized she had. 
What makes Faramir so wonderful is that he loved Eowyn _as a woman_; he saw her complete with her faults and her pride and her brokenness and he didn’t love her in spite of it, he loved it as part of her. He didn’t offer her pity, which would have crippled her strength. And Faramir is very nearly the Most Perfect Man Ever; he is strong and gentle and kind and wise and he loves Eowyn. 

I’m another person who identifies completely with Eowyn; the feeling caged and limited, not the unrequited love thing. I haven’t been in love. I’m hoping to by-pass that and go straight to a Faramir-guy, if he’d have the decency to show up soon.


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## Remnant (Mar 20, 2003)

Rhiannon ... 
Thank you! Someone finally understands Eowyn the way my 19 year old daughter does ...
I am completely sold on arwen and aragorn and I am sooo glad that Tolkien let it play out the way he did! 
But you have caught the soul of Eowyn ...
I believe that PJ has done an absolutely wonderful job; with the actors help, of fleshing out A/A .. 
I think Tolkien; in a way, missed the mark by not putting more of arwen and aragorn into the main book. 
And they stand as as awesome couple. I feel more like arwen .. and I do understand their kind of love.
It may just be how differently we are all raised ... or a generational thing ... 
Eowyn and Faramir will be awesome too on screen ... I am so glad that PJ didn't go Hollywood on us .. and kept to Tolkien.

********Everyone keeps saying Tolkien meant for Eowyn/Aragorn to be together ... but the book didn't write itself .. 
The characters didn't come to life and write the book ... and arwen didn't just walk in and say "here I am" ... where are you all getting that? In his first draft stuff ?
Hey ... some of the first stuff he wrote had Strider a hobbit named "trotter" .. Is that what you mean by he had them together ...**********


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## Rhiannon (Mar 22, 2003)

> LOL! you remember that??



'Course I do. I have an exceptional memory, except for the hole-y bits.



> Thank you! Someone finally understands Eowyn the way my 19 year old daughter does ...



You're welcome  I might have to meet this daughter. 



> Everyone keeps saying Tolkien meant for Eowyn/Aragorn to be together ... but the book didn't write itself .. The characters didn't come to life and write the book ... and arwen didn't just walk in and say "here I am" ... where are you all getting that? In his first draft stuff ?



It's true books don't write themselves, but they do evolve as the story and characters develop (personally, my characters do have an awful tendency to come to life and walk in and say 'What are you doing now? No no, I don't like that. I'm going to do this. I don't care if it ruins your carefully constructed plot!'). I think Tolkien, as he re-wrote and revised, decided Aragorn and Eowyn wouldn't work for the same reasons I mentioned. 



> which is why a lot of people think I'm male. . .I guess it is a rather masculine name . .oh well.



I think it's the 'Strider' that throw people off, mostly.


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## Remnant (Aug 30, 2003)

I still can't wait to see how PJ resolves the eowyn/ faramir relationship in rotk ... I do not want her ruined and neither does my daughter .. ... she is eowyn in a lot of ways ... she'll be crushed if PJ makes eowyn weak!!


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## Niirewen (Sep 7, 2003)

I also voted for Eowyn and Faramir. They are just the perfect couple, at least I think so. But I also think Tolkien went into more detail about Eowyn and Faramir's relationship than he did for Aragorn and Arwen or Sam and Rosie.


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## HLGStrider (Sep 8, 2003)

I've always been able to nicely fill in the details myself on A&A. . .which is sort of cheeting. 

A lot of it is simply implied, hinted at, hidden.

You have to look for it. . .and then it is so subtle that I find it adds to the beauty. ..every time I read it it is more romantic. E&F were romantic the first time and don't really grow in extra readings.

By the way, this is my 5,000th post.


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## Elka (Sep 8, 2003)

*Which is coupple is more romantic*

I most definitely think that Aragorn and Arwen are the best couple. I personally can't get enough of their story. Since I havent read the book (unforunatelly) I was depressed at the idea that aragorn would fall for erowen (sp)


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## HLGStrider (Sep 9, 2003)

You really ought to read the books. . .most of the Aragorn and Arwen information is not in the main body but in an after tale in the appendix of the Return of the King as an entire seperate story.


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## Amarië (Sep 18, 2003)

I voted Faramir and Eowyn. I don't really know why, it was just the instinct i got. I just found it more 'real' than the others... i dunno what i mean!!!


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## Ingwë (Dec 27, 2008)

I think Arwen and Aragorn are the most romantic. They're not only romantic, but also dramatic  and their love is almost impossible but also pure. 
Regarding Faramir and Eowyn, as far as I remember, Tolkien doesn't say much about their love. When I read LOTR, I didn't feel much love between them, because Eowyn loved Aragorn and she married Faramir only because she couldn't have Aragorn. Not that she doesn't love the Steward, but it's just not pure love. It sounds like the arranged marriages of old.


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## Elorendil (Dec 27, 2008)

I disagree with Ingwe. I think that Eowyn really did love Faramir. There are a few nice moments in LOTR with the two of them. Some of his actions towards her, particularly in the Houses of Healing, are very touching. As for Eowyn loving Aragorn, I always got the idea that she loved the idea of Aragorn, rather than the man. Who wouldn't be swept off their feet by an exiled king about to claim his throne and who saved her uncle and her people? I think her love for Faramir was more based on him as a person than on his title or the things he had accomplished. In that sense, I would have to say that her love for Faramir was more pure and true than her love for Aragorn.

Just my opinion.


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## Prince of Cats (Dec 27, 2008)

What's the tale of Sam & Rosie?

As for Aragorn and Faramir, I don't think either of those stories are romantic as presented. It seems like they barely know eachother and happen to be the only eligible bachelors/bachelorettes

Far far better in my opinion was Beren and Luthien. They fought together over and over for eachother together and even got to return to middle earth because the Valar were so impressed

EDIT: Also, Beren and Luthien got a Silmaril and didn't seem to care about keeping it at all they just wanted the okay to be with eachother


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## Bucky (Dec 27, 2008)

Well, Aragorn & Arwen have _some_ romantic backdrop thrown in via the Apendix A 'Tale of Aragorn & Arwen'.....

As for Faramir & Eowyn, she's such a self-centered, crumudgeony crybaby, it's hard to feel any joy at seeing her get fullfilled in the end.
It's more of a "Would you just go away already?" attitude. 

As previously stated by Prince of Cats, Sam & Rosie is really just a factual event, not a romance:

"You've gone & wasted a year alreadY" she tells Sam when he asks her to marry.


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## HLGStrider (Dec 27, 2008)

I think comparing Faramir and Eowyn to an arranged marriage is a huge step. Most arranged marriages were for profit or to increase the status of one or the other person through alliance and association. Neither of them really benefited in these ways through their union. 

At the time they began their "affair" Faramir was loosing his position; he was about to be replaced by the "true king" and had not yet been promoted to his future princedom. Eowyn had no reason to believe that marrying this man would bring her increase in wealth or status. Also, Faramir was, while a stalwart warrior in his own right and a beloved commander, not really considered a hero of note. All his life he had been overshadowed by a heartier older brother and he spent a good deal of the war too wounded to distinguish himself. Eowyn had been raised by a race of warriors and would've likely preferred marriage to a man such as Boromir (or Aragorn) who was renown for his mad-warrior-skills. Faramir was not that man.

As far as the other direction, Faramir would've not seen any advantage to his marriage to Eowyn. She had no heritage even though she was of a royal house, and she was considered to be of a lesser race, not being Numenorean. 

They would've had no practical reason for marriage.

Now, if you wanted to argue that it was an arranged marriage in the sense of the "my dad thinks that this is a good man, I always do what my dad says so I will marry him" type, still really no basis as there was no authority figure even suggesting the union, let alone ordering it, and again, no reason for one to do so.

Now, I do defend Aragorn and Arwen being slightly more romantic than Faramir and Eowyn but I agree with PoC that Beren and Luthien beats both (though I thought they were left out simply because we're discussing the LotR's not the Sil so I don't really care about them not being part of this discussion), but I think there was a good deal of romance in both stories (if you read the appendix, if you don't we don't have enough details of Aragorn and Arwen for it to be truly romantic).

I disagree with the harsh discription of Eowyn. She had some adolescent issues, but I think that "but my window does not face west" moment when her ice begins to melt is very touching. I identify with her a lot from my desperate teen stage. The only thing that would've made her more realistic was perhaps making her younger. Her behevior at times suits a girl in her late teens rather than one of 23, which, if my math is right, was her age at the time of the books. Though considering how quickly she was forced to grow up in the wake of the trouble in her household, a little held in immaturity is if not acceptable, understandable.


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## Aglarband (Dec 28, 2008)

I said Faramir and Eowyn more because I think they are a more intriguing couple. However Beren and Luthien are easily toilkien's most romantic.


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## Haleth (Dec 30, 2008)

I voted Sam and Rosie. Maybe because they just seem like the earthier, more realistic couple. I can imagine their domestic life, while for the life of me I can't picture that between the other two couples.

Aragorn and Arwen are like a pale reflection of Tolkien's true epic romance - Luthien and Beren. Their union, rather than a relationship between emotional people made of flesh and blood seems like a symbol - the third and last union of Men and Elves. I can see their purpose as a literary device in the text, but this couple doesn't move me in any way. Could be also because I find both of them boring as characters.

Faramir and Eowyn are a bit different. Their converastion in the Houses of Healing is quite poetically romantic and they seem more 'human' than Aragorn and Arwen. But still, their romance appears contrived to me: as if they're foisted on each other because marriage in LotR is seen as a sort of 'reward' after long struggles or simply 'the natural course of life'. Or perhaps I just don't like it because Eowyn suddenly goes from "I'm a shieldmaiden, and none shall beat me at angsting!" to "Pacifist Healer Mode On!". And I find Faramir to be a bit of a cardboard perfect character.

So Sam and Rosie it is.


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