# Sauron and his point of view



## Aredheldaedraugh (Aug 13, 2020)

For me, Sauron is one of the characters most fascinating „Wiser than Morgoth, not a beginner of discord, probably knowing more of the music than did Melkor“ P. 395 Morgoth’s Ring. 

He is absolutely not one-sided and 
he wasn’t fallen from the beginning. 
In Morgoth’s Ring It is pointed out that Sauron has followed Morgoth because of admiration and kind of love for such a Valar. 
According to Morgoth’s Ring he even lied to himself concerning Melkor.

His love of control and order, in the beginning a virtue, became his flaw. He isn’t the kind of „whhhhoooooaaaa“ villain as he appears in the films. Also interesting that Sauron really thought he makes the right things because he thought Eru had abandoned Arda and he, as the only remaining Maia/ angelic power on middle earth, has now to control, order and plan everything. Morgoth’s Ring Text VII P. 398 „Sauron unlike Morgoth would have been content for the Númenóreans to exist, as his own subjects“ and „he deluded himself with the notion that the Valar having failed and Eru had abandoned Arda“. Morgoth and Sauron in the Silmarillion are the epitome of evil.
But I m fascinated that Sauron himself not only doesn’t see himself as such but he thinks himself as „good“, doing excactly what he was created for. According to Morgoth’s Ring he thought the Istari“ as ambassadors of the Valar only to colonize Middle earth to establish their lost power.“ 
„Middle Earth as a mere effort of defeated imperialists without knowledge and sanction of Eru“. (P.397 Morgoth’s Ring). I think the fall of this Maia is absolutely tragic because in the beginning he had good intentions. Tolkien Shows how good intentions can become monstrous. 

I can’t remember where and when but I ve once read that Tolkien in his last years had thought of redemption for Sauron after his ultimate defeat and destruction of his ring because he was never so based as Morgoth and he had always a tiny rest of his former angelic „good“ beeing in him.


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## Olorgando (Aug 13, 2020)

Melkor the nihilistic psychopath, Sauron "only" a (perhaps malignant) narcissist ... there's something to that.


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## Alcuin (Aug 14, 2020)

Welcome to TTF, Aredheldaedraugh.

I have never before heard that Tolkien considered some redemption for Sauron, who after the Ring’s destruction was rendered impotent, as Gandalf put it, “maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape.” (“Last Debate”, _RotK_) Do you recall where you read or heard it?

Did you peruse the thread “What Did Sauron Know?”


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## Aredheldaedraugh (Aug 14, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> Melkor the nihilistic psychopath, Sauron "only" a (perhaps malignant) narcissist ... there's something to that.


Yes, narcissist is possibly true. But I think there was also more for it. In his whole attitude he reminded me of someone who is very engaged in his work but who gets, after a time, malcontent because there are no quick and fast solutions /Actions and all work goes to slowly. A bit like difficult questions don’t have easy and fast answers. „Sauron was a great craftsman of the household of Aule“(p.52 Morgoth’s Ring“ he thought Melkor would things „ get done“.



Alcuin said:


> Welcome to TTF, Aredheldaedraugh.
> 
> I have never before heard that Tolkien considered some redemption for Sauron, who after the Ring’s destruction was rendered impotent, as Gandalf put it, “maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape.” (“Last Debate”, _RotK_) Do you recall where you read or heard it?
> 
> Did you peruse the thread “What Did Sauron Know?”


Thank you for the hint to the other thread. I didn’t know that but I will look it up.

concerning your other question, I try to find it but I m not sure I will be successful. It was something about Tolkien in his last years.


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## Sartr (Aug 27, 2020)

I like the idea of Sauron having more nuance to his character, I only wish the stories backed it up. He knows Illuvatar didn't abandon the world when a mountain was dropped on his head in Numenor. He's had the Valar tell him to knock it off multiple times, and only seems to get any sway because they're incredibly slow to act.


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## Aredheldaedraugh (Aug 28, 2020)

Sartr said:


> I like the idea of Sauron having more nuance to his character, I only wish the stories backed it up. He knows Illuvatar didn't abandon the world when a mountain was dropped on his head in Numenor. He's had the Valar tell him to knock it off multiple times, and only seems to get any sway because they're incredibly slow to act.


Sauron draw the wrong conclusions.
He thought in the end that Numenor was destroyed because the Numenorians attacked Valinor, not because the Valar or Eru are interested in Middle-Earth. He thought The Valar wanted to protect only Valinor. And furthermore the separation was now more obvious than even before. Valinor was now totally out of „space and time“. So absolut freedom for him. In my opinion very logic. 
It’s the same With Saruman. Once in middle earth even he who should know better after all the time in Valinor, thought he can do as he like. I think that the idea to be the (nearly) only remaining Maia in Middle Earth is extremely tempting for these angelic beeings. It is like „better to rule in hell than to serve in heaven“. In Middle Earth the Maiar are super powerful Beeings with a unique state, but in Valinor, they are some of many and compared to the Valar.......


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## Olorgando (Aug 28, 2020)

Sartr said:


> I like the idea of Sauron having more nuance to his character, I only wish the stories backed it up. He knows Illuvatar didn't abandon the world when a mountain was dropped on his head in Numenor. He's had the Valar tell him to knock it off multiple times, *and only seems to get any sway because they're incredibly slow to act*.


Though my Valar-bashing is almost entirely based on the descriptions in BoLT vols. 1 and 2, and thus on suspect grounds, saying they are slow to act is an understatement. I'd call it glacial ... 😒



Olorgando said:


> Though my Valar-bashing is almost entirely based on the descriptions in BoLT vols. 1 and 2, and thus on suspect grounds, saying they are slow to act is an understatement. I'd call it glacial ... 😒


I just had this "brain-storm incident" (sufficient warning has been given!)

When even *Treebeard* gets impatient ...


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## Aredheldaedraugh (Aug 28, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> Though my Valar-bashing is almost entirely based on the descriptions in BoLT vols. 1 and 2, and thus on suspect grounds, saying they are slow to act is an understatement. I'd call it glacial ... 😒


Yes, I agree totally. Also they imprisoned Melkor but let Sauron flee. In my opinion for them Sauron was only a little servant, not dangerous, once without his master. A fatal mistake. Also the treatment of men wasn’t very wise. They didn’t appear to be really interested in men, only in elfs. For me it was a bit like „oh, men belong to Eru, let’s care for the elfs.“ it’s understandable but of course it will come to jealousy.



Olorgando said:


> I just had this "brain-storm incident" (sufficient warning has been given!)
> 
> When even *Treebeard* gets impatient ...


😂😂😂that’s so true.


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## Olorgando (Aug 28, 2020)

El*ve*s, please! ("Elben" in German).  
JRRT had to force "Dwarves" on the Unwin typesetters - it is now accepted even by the Oxford English Dictionary.

Both Eruhini were a mystery to the Ainur / Valar / Maiar from the Music of the Ainur, as being introduced by Eru and not fiddled with even by Melkor (IIRC). But the Valar, hiding in Valinor, definitely gave Melkor a head start on the Elves (it was Oromë who found them and got the pre-sun-and-moon attack on Melkor going). They seem to totally have missed the awakening of Men (the time frame of what became to be published in the Sil having given JRRT doubts about its being far too short). Besides being the First-born, the Elves had the advantage of being similarly long-lived as the descended-into-Arda Ainur. Those sub-century-of-the-sun-living Second Children may have been too much for them to comprehend (as I mentioned above, their coming to a decision to act could be ... glacial).


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## Aredheldaedraugh (Aug 28, 2020)

👍you are right. Elves is the correct spelling in English.
The Valar loved the elves and given themselves even elven form. According to the Sil they loved them so much they didn’t want them to leave Valinor. Out of love, not out of suppression as Féanor believed.
But of course the elves were more alike the Ainur. I agree absolutely to you. And let’s not forget the rumours that humanity was alike Morgoth. The Ainur , Melkor included, didn’t really bother with Humans. All of them were more interested in the elves: more powerful, magical Beeings, more strength, immortal, beautiful and so on. Interesting even the evil ones preferred (if possible) to look like elves and not like Orcs. There weren’t many Ainur talking to humans and I think only two who really lived with them: Olorin and Sauron (the lost blue Istari not mentioned because no one knows what happened to them.😀perhaps they are here In our time and we don’t know it😉). The Valar were incredible slow, I agree. But if you are an Ainur time doesn‘t mean anything to you especially if you rest in a place as Valinor and don t have to adapt to another „space time“.


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## Olorgando (Jan 10, 2021)

Azanathel of Emyn Uial said:


> And then Eönwë.... The most skilled in arms of all the Ainur stood before Manwe... I shall lead the armies of Wrath. Eönwë once again walked on Middle Earth for a second time and was the Champion of the powers of Arda once again. None withstood his wrath and he helped break the mountains of Angband.


Just to warn you: I am an irrepressible nitpicker. 

Eonwë most skilled in *arms*, yes. Tulkas (a Vala to Eonwë's Maia, and multiple pummeler of Melkor) never had any need of arms as in weapons. To Tulkas the mightiest weapon in Middle-earth would probably have seemed like very thin aluminum foil. He was a strictly one-skill Vala, but that skill easily overpowered Melkor, even making Melkor take a powder and stay away from Arda for a while at in the early phase of Arda's being constructed by the other Valar - to which Tulkas gave much help.


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## Oromedur (Mar 18, 2021)

Aredheldaedraugh said:


> 👍you are right. Elves is the correct spelling in English.
> The Valar loved the elves and given themselves even elven form. According to the Sil they loved them so much they didn’t want them to leave Valinor. Out of love, not out of suppression as Féanor believed.
> But of course the elves were more alike the Ainur. I agree absolutely to you. And let’s not forget the rumours that humanity was alike Morgoth. The Ainur , Melkor included, didn’t really bother with Humans. All of them were more interested in the elves: more powerful, magical Beeings, more strength, immortal, beautiful and so on. Interesting even the evil ones preferred (if possible) to look like elves and not like Orcs. There weren’t many Ainur talking to humans and I think only two who really lived with them: Olorin and Sauron (the lost blue Istari not mentioned because no one knows what happened to them.😀perhaps they are here In our time and we don’t know it😉). The Valar were incredible slow, I agree. But if you are an Ainur time doesn‘t mean anything to you especially if you rest in a place as Valinor and don t have to adapt to another „space time“.


I think Eru in the beginning spoke directly to men in Middle Earth before they came out of the East and became known, but Morgoth was aware of them and terrified the life out of them and eventually they stopped listening to Illuvatar to the point their nature changed and the could no longer do so.

The early houses who became the Edain had tales of their ancestors fleeing into Beleriand from a terrible shadow but over time it was forgotten.


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## Olorgando (Mar 19, 2021)

Oromedur said:


> I think Eru in the beginning spoke directly to men in Middle Earth before they came out of the East and became known, ...


Have you read anything anywhere in "the legendarium" including, but not limited to the books edited by Christopher Tolkien, stating this explicitly?
I haven't read extensively in HoMe or other works for a while, but I'd be seriously stumped for any such quote ...


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## Oromedur (Mar 19, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> Have you read anything anywhere in "the legendarium" including, but not limited to the books edited by Christopher Tolkien, stating this explicitly?
> I haven't read extensively in HoMe or other works for a while, but I'd be seriously stumped for any such quote ...


From Morgoth’s Ring:




> The Voice said: 'Ye are my children. I have sent you to dwell here. In time ye will inherit all this Earth, but first ye must be children and learn. Call on me and I shall hear; for I am watching over you.'
> In that time we called often and the Voice answered. But it seldom answered our questions, saying only: 'First seek to find the answer for yourselves. For ye will have joy in the finding, and so grow from childhood and become wise. Do not seek to leave childhood before your time.'


Then after Morgoth gets involved and fills men’s heads with lies about The Voice:


The first Voice we never heard again, save once. In the stillness of the night It spoke, saying: 'Ye have abjured Me, but ye remain Mine. I gave you life. Now it shall be shortened, and each of you in a little while shall come to Me, to learn who is your Lord: the one ye worship, or I who made him.'


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## Olorgando (Mar 19, 2021)

To put it bluntly: that does not raise my sympathies for Eru, very much the opposite.


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## Oromedur (Mar 19, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> To put it bluntly: that does not raise my sympathies for Eru, very much the opposite.


Fair comment.


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## Miguel (Mar 19, 2021)

I would imagine lots of situations such as this going on in Hildórien:


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## Oromedur (Mar 20, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> To put it bluntly: that does not raise my sympathies for Eru, very much the opposite.


I’m sure there will be more context to it, will need to acquire a copy.
I think basically that men were bewildered and wanted answers but Eru would simply reassure them and encourage them to learn and discover by themselves. Then Morgoth came along, brought the answers to the exam questions with him and they loved it. They began to follow him rather than Eru because it was easier. Then Eru withdrew and Morgoth showed them who he really was, leading to a mad dash into Beleriand. Kind of.


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