# Whence Cometh the 'Civility' of the Uruk-Hai at Helms Deep?



## Ron Simpson (Jul 28, 2018)

Courtesy, civility, & fair-play seem to come up quite a bit in LoTR. A few of my favourites:

1. Galadriel to Gimli (in Lorien) : _"it is said that the skill of the Dwarves is in their hands rather than in their tongues, yet that is not true of Gimli. For none have ever made to me a request so bold and yet so courteous..."_

2. Denethor to Pippin (Minas Tirith) : _"You have courteous speech, strange as the sound of it may be to us in the Sourth. And we shall have need of all folk of courtesy, be they great or small, in the days to come…"_

3. Gandalf to Theoden (Meduseld) _’The courtesy of your hall is somewhat lessened of late, Theoden son of Thengel,' said Gandalf. 'Has not the messenger from your gate reported the names of my companions?_

4. Aragorn to Gimli (Forest of Fangorn): _“we may not shoot an old man so, at unawares and unchallenged, whatever fear or doubt be on us. Watch and wait!” _(Fair play, but interesting that Gimli had no issue with shooting !)

But what was the deal with the Uruk-hai at Helms Deep? Uruk-Hai soldiers to Aragorn: _“Get down or we will shoot you from the wall,” they cried. “this is no parley. you have nothing to say.”_

I don’t know which is more remarkable (to me) here: that they allowed Aragorn the opportunity to speak without immediately shooting him, or that they were (seemingly) willing to entertain the notion of a parley. After all, the Uruk-Hai were dispatched by Saruman to annihilate the people of Rohan, and they were in the heat of battle and half-way to accomplishing their goal. (_“We are the Uruk-hai: we do not stop the fight for night or day, for fair weather or for storm. We come to kill, by sun or moon.”_) Doesn't the very notion of a parley require a measure of courtesy, civility, & trust? So where would those sentiments come from?


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jul 28, 2018)

Good question. One possible explanation is their origin: "these creatures of Isengard, these half-orcs and goblin-men that the foul craft of Saruman has bred", are apparently part man; would this have made them more "civil"? That seems doubtful, but they may have been imbued with more curiosity, enough to make them wonder what this man had to say.

On the other hand, it doesn't seem to much resemble a "parley": "The Orcs yelled and jeered". The "power and royalty" of Aragorn gave some of the wild men pause, "But the Orcs laughed with loud voices, and a hail of darts and arrows whistled over the wall". Maybe they looked at it as a little entertainment break? 

The real reason for the episode is to signal the upcoming entry of an "otherworldly" force: the Huorns.


----------



## Barliman (Jul 29, 2018)

Ron Simpson said:


> Courtesy, civility, & fair-play seem to come up quite a bit in LoTR. A few of my favourites:


I was always fond of this one:
‘But, Lord Faramir,’ said Frodo bowing, ‘you have not yet declared your will concerning the said Frodo, and until that is made known, he cannot shape his plans for himself or his companions. Your judgement was postponed until the morning; but that is now at hand.’
‘Then I will declare my doom,’ said Faramir. ‘As for you, Frodo, in so far as lies in me under higher authority, I declare you free in the realm of Gondor to the furthest of its ancient bounds; save only that neither you nor any that go with you have leave to come to this place unbidden. This doom shall stand for a year and a day, and then cease, unless you shall before that term come to Minas Tirith and present yourself to the Lord and Steward of the City. Then I will entreat him to confirm what I have done and to make it lifelong. In the meantime, whomsoever you take under your protection shall be under my protection and under the shield of Gondor. Are you answered?’
Frodo bowed low. ‘I am answered,’ he said, ‘and I place myself at your service, if that is of any worth to one so high and honourable.’
‘It is of great worth,’ said Faramir. ‘And now, do you take this creature, this Sméagol, under your protection?’
‘I do take Sméagol under my protection,’ said Frodo. Sam sighed audibly; and not at the courtesies, of which, as any hobbit would, he thoroughly approved. Indeed in the Shire such a matter would have required a great many more words and bows.


----------



## Nameless Thing (Jul 30, 2018)

First, I agree with what Southerner says, they could view it as an entertainment break. 
But I think it also comes from the fact that even orcs understand that if they don't play fair at least to the point that they keep certain basic rules, they can't expect their enemies to play fair either. So if they shoot the messenger their messengers will be shot as well. Does it make sense?


----------



## Ron Simpson (Jul 30, 2018)

Nameless Thing said:


> But I think it also comes from the fact that even orcs understand that if they don't play fair at least to the point that they keep certain basic rules, they can't expect their enemies to play fair either.



I can't seem to remember any examples where Orcs played fair.


----------



## Nameless Thing (Jul 31, 2018)

Ron Simpson said:


> I can't seem to remember any examples where Orcs played fair.


I'm specifically referring to that incident with Aragon trying to talk to them and they didn't shoot him. Maybe I'm wrong, but i think they partly didn't shoot because they knew that if they shoot the messenger their messengers will be shot as well.


----------



## Deleted member 12094 (Jul 31, 2018)

I could suggest that the only interest was to see if maybe Aragorn was intending to negotiate a surrender. Once the surrender done, it is rather unthinkable that they would have kept to any of their agreed conditions.


----------



## Ron Simpson (Jul 31, 2018)

Merroe said:


> I could suggest that the only interest was to see if maybe Aragorn was intending to negotiate a surrender. Once the surrender done, it is rather unthinkable that they would have kept to any of their agreed conditions.


Hmm, treachery & deceit masked as civility. Didn't think of that. Now that sounds more like the Uruk-Hai we all know and love!


----------



## Ent (Aug 29, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Good question. One possible explanation is their origin: "these creatures of Isengard, these half-orcs and goblin-men that the foul craft of Saruman has bred", are apparently part man; would this have made them more "civil"? That seems doubtful, but they may have been imbued with more curiosity, enough to make them wonder what this man had to say.
> 
> On the other hand, it doesn't seem to much resemble a "parley": "The Orcs yelled and jeered". The "power and royalty" of Aragorn gave some of the wild men pause, "But the Orcs laughed with loud voices, and a hail of darts and arrows whistled over the wall". Maybe they looked at it as a little entertainment break?
> 
> The real reason for the episode is to signal the upcoming entry of an "otherworldly" force: the Huorns.



And also the coming of Gandalf, another turning of the tide, who he knew was to be coming on that fair morn..!

I suspect it was just because Aragorn held up his hand in the universal signal of parley.

They rejected it utterly, and it was already stated he was standing there "heedless of the darts of the enemy", so they hadn't stopped trying to skewer his royal looking self..! 

The biggest oddity to me is how anyone could have heard any of it over the din of battle to begin with. 

I suspect, as you say, it's all theatrics in preparation for the change in the battle's fortunes.


----------



## Eljorahir (Aug 29, 2022)

The way I've always taken this scene is that the Uruk-Hai are certain they are soon to be the victors, and they're having some fun taunting that guy standing on the wall. I don't think they're being polite or obeying the "rules of parley".


----------



## Ent (Aug 29, 2022)

Eljorahir said:


> The way I've always taken this scene is that the Uruk-Hai are certain they are soon to be the victors, and they're having some fun taunting that guy standing on the wall. I don't think they're being polite or obeying the "rules of parley".


Not obeying. Just recognizing and then ridiculing.
Thats why they say what they say.


----------



## ZehnWaters (Aug 30, 2022)

Ron Simpson said:


> I can't seem to remember any examples where Orcs played fair.


While not an orc, there IS the Mouth of Sauron. So it's possible they at least know their superiors understand the concept.


----------



## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 30, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> While not an orc, there IS the Mouth of Sauron. So it's possible they at least know their superiors understand the concept.


Neither did the Mouth of Sauron play fair...


----------



## ZehnWaters (Aug 30, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> Neither did the Mouth of Sauron play fair...


To be fair, he didn't physically attack anybody.


----------



## Ent (Aug 30, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> To be fair, he didn't physically attack anybody.



Entering once again on speculative waters, I personally think the only reason the Mouth appeared at all, was to probe the waters and see if it would be revealed that some aspiring idiot had come into possession of the Ring and thought he/she could wield it.

Otherwise I have no idea why Sauron would have bothered sending him. 

But even then, it would not have changed Sauron's mind with regard to what he planned to do.

It may be as much for "theatrical effect" as was Aragorn's 'hand in parley' on Helm's Deep.


----------



## ZehnWaters (Aug 30, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> Entering once again on speculative waters, I personally think the only reason the Mouth appeared at all, was to probe the waters and see if it would be revealed that some aspiring idiot had come into possession of the Ring and thought he/she could wield it.



I think Sauron was in doubt. Here Aragorn is at his doorstep with an undersized army. Who would be foolish enough to attack Sauron's own stronghold with such a pitiful force...unless Aragorn (or Gandalf) had the Ring? But then who was the Hobbit he'd found? And what was the Hobbit doing?

It seems like the Mouth of Sauron was fishing for information. We actually see this in the film (extended version) when the Mouth of Sauron quickly looks from character to character when they react.


----------



## Ent (Aug 30, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> I think Sauron was in doubt. Here Aragorn is at his doorstep with an undersized army. Who would be foolish enough to attack Sauron's own stronghold with such a pitiful force...unless Aragorn (or Gandalf) had the Ring? But then who was the Hobbit he'd found? And what was the Hobbit doing?
> 
> It seems like the Mouth of Sauron was fishing for information. We actually see this in the film (extended version) when the Mouth of Sauron quickly looks from character to character when they react.



and that was the stated hope of the ragtag bunch that went to the Gate, yes? To set up a distraction. Which worked. 
in many ways and at many times, both Melkor and Sauron, blinded by their darkened ways of thinking, really 'missed the boat' about things.
but this is not unusual, is it..!
Are we not all, most of the time, singularly focused by some aspect(s) of how we view things? 

"Who among us is without flaw?" (Master Po, _Kung Fu_.)


----------



## ZehnWaters (Aug 30, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> and that was the stated hope of the ragtag bunch that went to the Gate, yes? To set up a distraction. Which worked.
> in many ways and at many times, both Melkor and Sauron, blinded by their darkened ways of thinking, really 'missed the boat' about things.
> but this is not unusual, is it..!
> Are we not all, most of the time, singularly focused by some aspect(s) of how we view things?


"Maleficent doesn't know anything about love, or kindness, or the joy of helping others."
-Fauna

As Tolkien himself stated, Sauron couldn't have conceived that they'd have DESTROYED the Ring rather than try to use it against him. He must have been in a state of both disbelief and abject terror when Frodo suddenly appeared IN Mount Doom with the Ring.


----------



## Barliman (Sep 4, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Maybe they looked at it as a little entertainment break?


This.
When a cat plays with a mouse, and lets it think it's getting away, it's not being civil.


----------

