# Orcs: Distorted Elves or Men?



## Belegmacar (Jan 6, 2004)

The view is commonly held that Orcs are distorted Elves, but this passage of Morgoth's Ring suggests otherwise...
_



This then, as it may appear, was my father`s final view of the question: Orcs were bred from Men...

Click to expand...

_But from this passage in The Silmarillion, it is taken that Orcs are distorted Elves...



> Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi (Elves) that who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs...


Orcs: Men, or Elves?


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## Hirila (Jan 7, 2004)

Maybe your first quote somehow refers to Saruman's orcs. You remember? Somewhere it says that he "created" his Uruks from orcs and men. And the I guess that Morgoth (as long as he was walking ME) was never really satisfied with his companies. I mean, as many as there were, somehow they kept loosing to men and elves. So he had some work to do to improve them. And he may have used human blood to do so in order to make them stronger in fights with men. 

But all this would have only happened after the original orcs had been created. So the question whether they are distorted elves or men hasn't been answered. Sorry.


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## Eriol (Jan 7, 2004)

There are some old threads dealing with this question, such as this thread. The bottomline as I see it is this:

Tolkien's first notions about Orc origins were that they were corrupted Elves.

He later revised those notions, and decided that they were bred out of Men's stock.

Christopher Tolkien had to make editorial decisions when compiling the Sil, and he chose the first version. This is not the only "early conception" of Tolkien that was adopted by CT. JRRT was reviewing a lot of stuff in his mythology (as we read about in Morgoth's Ring). As I see it, for internal consistency, we have to choose one of the two worldviews:

1. Early: Men awake with the Rising of the Sun. The Sun is a fruit of Laurelin. Arda was flat until Númenor was drowned. Orcs are corrupted Elves.

2. Late: Men awake soon after to the Elves. The Sun and the Moon are there already. Arda was always round. Orcs are bred out of Men's stocks. 

Now, it's been a long time since I read Morgoth's Ring, and perhaps there are some mistakes in this recollection... but the general idea is correct. "Early" and "Late" views are coherent constructions, and to adopt only one of the items without the others leads to some contradictions; hence, to say that Orcs are bred from Men without changing the Chronology and Shape of Arda is risky. 

To effect that change (which never took place) Tolkien was planning to have the tales of the Silmarillion have the status of "mannish legends", compiled in Númenor (and therefore inaccurate in comparison with the knowledge of the Valar).


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## Hirila (Jan 9, 2004)

Hey! I've got a wonderful idea that will settle down all disputes about orcs and goblins being the same race and they being distorted elves or men.

What about this:
As we all know (at least I hope so) "goblins" are, if considered different from orcs, to be a bit more slender, less bulky, slit-eyed. Something like that. If ever, they ressemble more the appearance of the tall, slender (slit-eyed?) elves, being the more "elegant" race.
Orcs on the other hand are big and bad. Brutal in appearance, broad chests, hairy legs and all that. They would remind me more of men, being smaller than elves, sturdier. 

So I guess that goblins are distorted elves and men were tortured into orcs.

Isn't that a good idea?


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## Gildor (Jan 10, 2004)

Belegmacar said:


> Orcs: Men, or Elves?




Quite possibly both. The term "breed" describes a process of change that takes place over generations, with each generation mated with something that will (hopefully) produce offspring with certain characteristics. It may have begun with Elves whose bodies and spirits were twisted by torture and dark sorcery, then eventually progressed to crossbreeding with Men or even other unmentioned things that were evil or nasty enough to result in the Orcs we are familiar with. This would also explain the differing kinds of Orcs, from the bigger Uruks of Mordor to the smaller "goblins" of the Misty Mountains.


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## Eledhwen (Jan 10, 2004)

The detailed essay in Morgoth's Ring on the origin of Orcs included four possible origins of orcs: Elves, men, beasts and fallen angelic beings.

Tolkein grew less and less comfortable with the concept of Elvish blood in orcs, and treated the whole thing like an historic investigation.

The fallen angelic beings - the lesser spirits who absconded with Morgoth - were well able to take bodily form, and Tolkien suggested that these were probably the great orcs and goblin chieftains. Alan Lee's picture of the Goblin Chief from The Hobbit depicts all sorts of shapes and sizes, and is probably how Tolkien envisaged them too.


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## Inderjit S (Jan 20, 2004)

As Eledhwen points out, Tolkien disliked the idea of Orks originating wholly from Elves. He later claims they were a mix of beasts, fallen Maia (who were most prob. the evil creatures that the Elves saw, as described in 'Quendi and Eldar') and later Men, and maybe Elves.

Most Orks had short lifespans, but some lived a long time such as Azog. There has also been speculation on the age of Gorbag and Shagrat, the Ork captains from Cirith Ungol and Minas Morgul.


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## Walter (Jan 28, 2004)

Tolkien's first "notions" on the origin of Orcs were, that they _were bred by Melko of the subterranean heats and slime..._ (_BoLT II_ p. 159)

Tolkien's latest "notions" - as pointed out by Christopher Tolkien - probably were that _Orcs were bred from Men..._ (_MR_ p.421)

Tolkien's published "notions" (as in the published Silmarillion) were that they were bred by Melkor from imprisoned Elves (QS - Of the Coming of the Elves).

In an essay about Orcs - published in "Myths Transformed" (_MR_ pp. 408-424) Tolkien has been pondering a few more possibilities - as Eledhwen mentioned above - but each of them had either a "limited applicability" or other shortcomings to the effect that Tolkien seemed not fully satisfied with either one. To declare now - ex cathedra - that Orcs either are "distorted Men" or "distorted Elves" would IMHO only represent part of the "truth" - or maybe better: "facts" - within Tolkien's sub-creation. The issue is - like many others regarding Tolkien's writings - too complex to be settled in just one sentence....

For more details and background of this issue in the context of Tolkien's pre- and post-LotR writings you could check out: The Origin of Orcs


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## Lhunithiliel (Apr 23, 2004)

Classical topic! Fresh opinions?


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