# Discussion - Turin's fate - a curse or faith?



## Lhunithiliel (Nov 30, 2003)

One of the most tragic characters in Tolkien's Legendarium - Turin.
His story thrills and inspires!

What was it caused by:

- the curse of Morgoth ?

OR 

- the faith of Men?


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## Finduilas (Nov 30, 2003)

I personally think that it is a mixture of the Faith of Men and his own unlucky nature. 
IMO, Men are most unlucky of all kindreds and this we clearly see throughout Turin's entire life. However, he was obviously extremely unlucky in order to have such a life!
I would assume that it was his OWN faith that doomed him...

I'm writing this very very late at night so if it doesn't make much sense, please don't pay attention. I'll see it tomorrow


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## Hirila (Dec 2, 2003)

If we go back to the very beginning of what caused the whole Turin story, I think it was Morgoth's curse that started it all.

Just think... If Morgoth hadn't caused all that trouble in Valinor, the Noldor would (most likely) never have left and there wouldn't have been the war in which Turin "lost" his father and his lands were left to be taken over by the bad guys. Then he wouldn't have had to leave his house etc. And they lived happily ever after.

But as the situation was as it was, with Hurin gone, the bad guys there, Morgoth hating Men... Turin was most unlucky in having to face all that happened to him. 
IMO there must have been more than just Morgoth's curse. (Though that started it all!) A sensible man of that time, knowing, what he knew, should have been able to avoid some of the troubles. As we all know, he did not, so I think there was a bit of fate dealing with the cards as well, dooming Turin and his family.


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## Eledhwen (Dec 3, 2003)

Even with the excuse of dragon enchantment and the curse on Hurin, Turin often acted before he thought, with many tragic consequences that I don't need to spell out: those who have read the story know, and those who have not ... should. It didn't help that he had a bloodthirsty sword, Anglachel (Gurthang) and some blame lies with the Elf who forged it, Eol, the Dark Elf; the great smith who dwelt n Nan Elmoth.


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## Gil-Galad (Dec 3, 2003)

At least one thing was due to his actions,not the Curse of Morgoth.
The Fall of Nargothrond.His self-confidence was too big his decision to build a bridge caused Nargothrnd's fall.


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## Hirila (Dec 3, 2003)

Hmmm.... 

all this makes me come to another conclusion: It is neither Morgoth's curse, nore some fate, doom or whatever you may call it. It is Turin (!) who for the most part is responsible for what has happened.
Let me look at what details of the story I can remember:
Leaving Doriath in haste, without even considering reconciliation with Thingol: Turins fault.
The case of Nargothrond! Clear: Turin.
So it were his actions who brought his ruin. (Whatever happened after the meeting with teh dragon he has no responsibility, I hope you agree on that.)

But it seems as if it were (at least partly) he who started it all.


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## Eledhwen (Dec 3, 2003)

Turin seems to be the Mannish counterpart for Feanor (in temper at least!)


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## Helcaraxë (Dec 9, 2003)

Forgive me for asking (have'nt read the Sil since last year) but, when I read the Sil, I recall that it was Glaurung who put the curse on Turin. Morgoth put the curse on Hurin. Am I mixed up? But anyway, I think that by putting a curse on him Glaurung only built upon qualities already present in Turin personality. He was by nature rash and unlucky, and Glaurung used that as his leverage.


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## Gil-Galad (Dec 9, 2003)

Yes,as far as I can remember Glaurung put a curse on Turin,but at the same time The Curse of Morgoth was on him too,because he was son of Hurin.


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## Lúthien Séregon (Dec 10, 2003)

Is it okay if I can quickly post a thought on this, if I’m not a member?

I think the reason for Turin’s tragic life was a combination of his own personality, and the curses laid upon him – the type of decisions he made had the highest probability of leading to tragedy and misfortune, but these were exemplified further and made complete by the curses upon him ( curses of Morgoth and Glaurung ). And it’s true that in some way his life represents the unluckiness of Men as a whole, though admittedly extreme.

Turin firstly had a choice of how to react to Saeros’ remarks – he reacted in probably the fieriest way possible, chasing him down the next day only to cause his death. Secondly, he then had the choice of being an exile and leaving Doriath, or returning when Thingol forgave him – he chose to remain an exile. Here he was setting himself up for his own downfall. In doing so, he dragged his friend Beleg into the matter, so in part he was responsible for his friend’s death.

However, I think the curses were truly acting in the last stage of his tragic life – his marriage to his sister, Nienor / Niniel. that was connected to the curse of Glaurung, who also hypnotized Nienor into forgetting her past and her true name. Also, this quote implies that this indeed was the result of his doom:



> Then Turambar fell into a fury, for in those words he heard the feet of his doom overtaking him



when he heard that Niniel was actually Nienor.


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## Gil-Galad (Dec 10, 2003)

Of course it is not a problem to post here,especially nice post like yours.It is not a problem to become a member too   

The one thing I liked more in your post was about his fury.You are right that his uncontrolled fury caused a huge part of his tragedies.


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## Lúthien Séregon (Dec 10, 2003)

Thanks Gil-gilad.  I would join, if I felt I knew enough about Tolkien and the history of ME. I'm nowhere near to being an expert though, that's for sure.


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## Finduilas (Dec 10, 2003)

Hmm...we are all not experts..

So, if you feel like learning you can join.

A preliminary welcome..


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## Lúthien Séregon (Dec 11, 2003)

Thanks for the preliminary welcome, Finduilas


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