# How did Sam and Gimli get to the Undying Lands??



## Link

It says that the Undying Lands are not reachable by a mortal.

Frodo and Bilbo made it and were allowed to stay b/c they had been ring bearers and had the consent of the elves and Gandalf.

How did Samwise make it though? Didn't he go by himself when Rosie died? How did he get there? He's a mortal. Did Valar "sense" that he had been a ring-bearer (if only for a short time) and open the "straight way" up too him?

And I know Gimili and Legolas sailed together to Aman, and since Legolas was an elf, he was able to go. But Gimli? Gimli is mortal, and was not a ring-bearer, so isn't he breaking the rules a bit?


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## Mablung

Sam was let in because he was a ring bearer. As for Gimli he was probably let in because an Elf guided him and he played such a large role.


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## Éomond

> _Originally posted by Link _
> *? He's a mortal. Did Valar "sense" that he had been a ring-bearer (if only for a short time) and open the "straight way" up too him?
> *



Yes, I think the Valar knew I believe just about all ring-bearers (Gollum of course didn't go) went to Valinor, no matter how long they were a bearer, some one correct me if I'm wrong


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## Aulë

Don't forget Isildur and Sauron!
They were ring bearers, but they didn't go.... 

*imagines Sauron being allowed into the Undying Lands*


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## GoldenWood

I heard some where that Galadriel played a role in leting Gimli into Undying lands.


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## Galdor

> How did Samwise make it though? Didn't he go by himself when Rosie died? How did he get there?



Samwise left ME after Rosie died, he was 101 I believe. It never says whether Sam left be himself or not, he could have gone by himself, or he might have gone with a few elves, there is no way of knowing. But either way he got there most likely the same way Frodo did, on a ship with Cirdan.


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## Gandalf White

> I heard some where that Galadriel played a role in leting Gimli into Undying lands.


 Actually, unless I'm mistaken, I believe it was Legolas who got Gimli in, and Gimli went because he wanted to meet Galadriel again.  Very touching, I always loved that.


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## agarwaen

regarding Sam getting getting to Valinor...



> But either way he got there most likely the same way Frodo did, on a ship with Cirdan.



I could have sworn it says somewhere that the ship Frodo and the gang took to Valinor was to be the last ship into the West... am I mistaken?? It's happened before. 

-Agarwaen


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## Goldberry

Regarding Gimli,at the end of Appendix A:

"We have heard tell that Legolas took Gimli Gloin's son with him because of their great friendship, greater than any that has been between Elf and Dwarf. If this is true, then it is strange indeed: that a Dwarf should be willing to leave Middle-earth for any love, or that the Eldar should receive him, or that the Lords of the West should permit it. But it is said that Gimli went also out of desire to see again the beauty of Galadriel; and it may be that she, being mighty among the Eldar, obtained this grace for him. More cannot be said of this matter."



> _Originally posted by agarwaen _
> *regarding Sam getting getting to Valinor...
> 
> 
> 
> I could have sworn it says somewhere that the ship Frodo and the gang took to Valinor was to be the last ship into the West... am I mistaken?? It's happened before.
> 
> -Agarwaen *



I had the that impression, too, but could not find any mention of in in LoTR. The book also does not say Cirdan went with Frodo and Gandalf. The only hint we have that Cirdan is gone is when Aragorn dies. In 'The Tale of Aragorn & Arwen', Arwen says "There is now no ship that would bear me hence..."


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## GoldenWood

> _Originally posted by Goldberry _
> * In 'The Tale of Aragorn & Arwen', Arwen says "There is now no ship that would bear me hence..." *



I thought that this only means, no ship will take Arwen since Elrond has already left to Undying lands. She can only go there with Elrond and choose to be an Elf. Since she didn't leave with Elrond she became mortal and can never go to Undying lands.


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## Samwise Gamgee

Sam went because he was a ring bearer. Gimli went because Legolas took him and because he was an elf friend. This may not be significant for others... (Hobbits seem to get the title.... More than DWARVES!) But Gimli was probably the only dwarf that was an ELF FRIEND in that age....... Or maybe after Elves and Dwarves began to disagree. Cirdan may have died because he had been a ring bearer and then given the ring up to Gandalf. Or he might have sailed away because nobody else was left that was going to go.


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## BlackCaptain

Valinor was not reachable by Mortals, save Tuor. I think thats his name... THe undying lands was a place that the elves went to. It wasnt Valinor though, so mortals could enter... correct me if im wrong

And the ship that Gimli and Legolas took was the last ship. from Appendix B:



> 1541 In this year on March 1st came at last the Passing of King Elessar. It is said taht the beds of Meriadoc and Peregrin were set beside the bed of the great king. Then Legolas built a grey ship in Ithilien, and sailed down Anduin and so over Sea; and with him, it is said, went Gimli the Dwarf. And when that ship passed and end was come in Middle-earth of the Fellowship of the Ring.



This was the last date ever in the appendix, and the last event i presume. So therefor, it is probably the last ship to have sailed to the Undying lands. But Cirdain might not have been aware of this, cuz Legolas and Gimli left from the end of the Anduin in the bay of... Belfas i beleive it is...


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## Ghan-buri-ghan

As we all know, the half-elven had a choice to make, to accept their human side, or their elven side. Arwen stayed in Middle Earth and so did her brothers, Elladan and Elrohir. 

Frodo took Arwen's place. Remember, she gave her place in Tol Eressea to him at the hall of the fountain in Minas Tirith. 

Since Arwen could give up her place why could her brothers not do the same? There were two spots (for Gimli and Sam?) that appear to have been up for grabs.


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## InMoria

Aulë said:


> *imagines Sauron being allowed into the Undying Lands*


Technically sauron is from the undying lands in the first place


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## Olorgando

InMoria said:


> Technically sauron is from the undying lands in the first place


I'm not quite sure of that. 🤔

Valinor was chosen as a place to settle (and fenced off with the Pelori Mountains, on whose highest peak, Taniquetil, Manwë had his hall and seat) after the destruction of the first two Great Lanps, the first lights of Arda, Illium in the north and Ormal in the south, by Melkor. If Sauron had been known to have been in the service of Melkor by then (defecting from Aulë, so to speak), it is doubtful that the other Valar and Maiar would have let him in. When Melkor was captured by the Valar in preparation for the coming of the Eldar, Sauron stayed behind in Angband, which, IIRC, the Valar did not scoure and destroy as they did Utumno. Sauron had been given commant of Angband, the secondary fortress to Melkor's main stronghold of Utumno, anyway at that time - again, IIRC. So while Melkor spent some time in Valinor against his will, Sauron may have never "set foot" there.


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## Alcuin

Gimli first: The last paragraph of Appendix A in _Return of the King_ reads,
_Here follows one of the last notes in the Red Book_

We have heard tell that Legolas took Gimli Glóin’s son with him because of their great friendship, greater than any that has been between Elf and Dwarf. If this is true, then it is strange indeed: that a Dwarf should be willing to leave Middle-earth for any love, or that the Eldar should receive him, or that the Lords of the West should permit it. But it is said that Gimli went also out of desire to see again the beauty of Galadriel; and it may be that she, being mighty among the Eldar, obtained this grace for him. More cannot be said of this matter.​So Tolkien leaves the matter understated: He does not _positively_ say that Gimli reached Tol Eressëa, but strongly suggests it. Gimli was at this point 262 years old: quite old for a Dwarf of Durin’s line! The average age of the Dwarves for whom we have data, and who were not killed in battle, is 259 years, the median (most common age) is 251. The longest-lived Dwarf was Dwalin, who is said to have lived to be 340, a matter on which Christopher Tolkien remarks at one point, because the _next oldest_ Dwarf of whom we know is Borin, younger son of Dáin I, who lived to 261: Gimli is older even than that. He wasn’t going to live much longer. 

Legolas and Gimli left in IV [Fourth Age] 120, SR [Shire Reckoning] 1541, soon after Aragorn Elessar died. Rose Gardener, Sam’s wife, had already died in IV 61, SR 1482. The notation in Appendix B, “The Tale of Years”, says,
Death of Mistress Rose, wife of Master Samwise, on Mid-year's Day. On September 22 Master Samwise rides out from Bag End. He comes to the Tower Hills, and is last seen by Elanor, to whom he gives the Red Book afterwards kept by the Fairbairns. Among them the tradition is handed down from Elanor that Samwise passed the Towers, and went to the Grey Havens. and passed over Sea, last of the Ring-bearers.​Now we know that Elves continued to migrate to Aman from the Grey Havens after Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel departed. One of them was Celeborn, who several years after the departure of Galadriel grew weary of Lórien and moved to Rivendell, where his grandsons Elladan and Elrohir still resided. 

My personal opinion is that Elladan and Elrohir, like Arwen, chose mortality: strictly speaking, to retain their Elvish longevity, they had to leave Middle-earth with their father or forsake it; however, I am aware that strict interpretation might not apply. In any case, I think Celeborn joined his grandsons while they remained in Middle-earth, then departed after their deaths. 

I mention this because when Aragorn dies in “The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen”, Aragorn tells Arwen that their decision to face mortalitywas made … in that day when we met …in the garden of Elrond where none now walk.​Elladan and Elrohir had been living in Rivendell with Celeborn, but none were there now. Had they taken wives among the women of the Dúnedain, we do well to remember this: the Kings of Arnor lived shorter lives than the Kings of Gondor by about one year in four for the northern line, or one year in five for the southern. (I.e., the ratio is 4:5.) Aragorn lived to 210 years, which is in line with what we should expect for the first King of Gondor at the beginning of the Fourth Age. (See my essay on this, “Decline of the Lifespan of the Númenóreans”. I mention that, “The distinct declines in the lifespans of the Númenórean rulers appear to be straight-line calculations,” and suggest that Tolkien might have prepared a chart from which to read the ages of the kings still among his papers.) That suggests that any long-lived Dúnadan in Arnor would die at about age 168. If Elladan and Elrohir married Dúnedain wives younger than 50 at the end of the Third Age, they would be expected to live to about IV 120. We know that Gilraen, Aragorn’s mother, was considered “young and had not reached the age at which the women of the Dúnedain were accustomed to marry” when at age twenty she consented to marry Arathorn II son of Arador; she was twenty-two when Aragorn was born, and she was 100 when she died in III 3007, SR 1407, twelve years before the Company of the Ring and six after Bilbo’s Farewell Feast, “aged by care, even as one of lesser Men,” as she told Aragorn. (“Tale of Aragorn and Arwen”) 

My wandering point here is that Elladan and Elrohir, had they chosen mortality and taken wives among the Dúnedain of the North might also have died by the time Aragorn died, for it seems Arwen does not consider returning to her brothers; and their father’s garden, where it seems the brothers had only recently dwelled, was abandoned. (Though perhaps Aragorn is being merely poetic in his description.) The Tale says thatGaladriel had passed away and Celeborn also was gone, and [Lórien] was silent.​(That, I suppose, implies the Elves there had crossed the river to join their kinsmen in Thranduil’s kingdom in Mirkwood renamed _Eryn Lasgalen_, Wood of Greenleaves.) 

But the Elves of Rivendell, and of Lindon, along with any that chose to leave Middle-earth who lived in Lórien or in Thranduil’s kingdom, were still permitted to depart, either from the Grey Havens in the west, or from the southern coast of Gondor, as did Legolas. Círdan, it is said, remained until the Last Ship sailed. Any ship that departed the Havens would permit Sam passage at the direction of Círdan, who received his instruction from Gandalf. 

A final note: Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, and Gimli _died_ in Tol Eressëa. They did not become “immortal” like the Elves. They spent their final years among the Elves on the Lonely Island, and then they passed on to their destinies: Gimli to the halls of waiting set aside for his folk by Aulë, Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam beyond the circles of the world.


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## InMoria

Olorgando said:


> So while Melkor spent some time in Valinor against his will, Sauron may have never "set foot" there.


Interesting. I will admit that it has been a long time since I read the Silmarillion so I don't fully remember everything. I just remember that Sauron was one the Maiar. I thought that he might have been there before Melkor became evil.


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## Olorgando

Check out the first chapter of the "Quenta Silmarillion" part of the published Sil, "Of the Beginning of Days". The Valar removed to Aman in the far west after the destruction of the two lamps, and fortified it with the Pelóri mountains at this time.
A bit earlier there is the following statement: "And Melkor knew of all that was done _{by the Valar in the ordering of Arda}_ , for even then he had secret friends and spies among the Maiar whom he had converted to his cause; ...". But no single Maia is named.
Even earlier in the "Valaquenta"section of the published Sil, under the last heading "Of the Enemies": Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel. In his beginnings he was of the Maiar of Aulë, and he remained mighty in the lore of that people." But no statement of when Sauron switched his allegiance to Melkor.
Much of the detail of this early part of the First Age, especially regarding chronology (much-shifted) is, IIRC, contained in the two "Book of Lost Tales" volumes of HoMe, so what JRRT would have kept in an author-published Sil must remain speculation.


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