# Did Frodo have a job/trade?



## Sammyboy (Apr 24, 2008)

Just wondering if Frodo had a job or a trade before he left the Shire when he was in his fifties? I don't remember reading anything about what he did, or was he living off the proceeds of Bilbo's little adventure involving Smaug?


----------



## Durin's Bane (Apr 24, 2008)

> Sam Gamgee married Rose Cotton, (...) And if Sam thought himself lucky, Frodo knew that he was more lucky himself; for there was not a hobbit in the Shire that was looked after with such care. (...) Frodo dropped quietly out of all the doings of the Shire.


From _The Grey Havens._


----------



## Firawyn (Apr 24, 2008)

So what were the 'doings' that Frodo dropped out of?

Were his doing just drinking ad smoking? Or a trade? Is writing trade for hobbits? Could that have been his trade?


----------



## HLGStrider (Apr 24, 2008)

He had a land and estate and while Tolkien didn't go into it, he was wealthy enough to keep servants who I am assuming worked the lands for him, kept a vegetable garden, and sold the profits on Bilbo's behalf. He also had family wealth. Bilbo wasn't working either and obviously was able to afford an idle life style. Family money + Adventure Proceeds=life of leisure.


----------



## Echo (Apr 24, 2008)

Perfectly right. The Bagginses were always described as a family of "gentle-hobbits". It's not like Merry or Pippin, coming from wealthy families, had any professions either.


----------



## Barliman Butterbur (Apr 24, 2008)

Apparently Frodo was a kind of "trust baby" as it were, as Bilbo's wealth supported both of them. All his needs were met, so he didn't have to work. He was quite literally landed gentry.

Barley


----------



## Sammyboy (Apr 25, 2008)

Thanks for you replies, it's confirmed what my theory was, and I'm guessing Bilbo must have had some wealth before his 'adventure', and obviously did after.

And of course Sam was his gardener, so was employed by him and this explains why he referred to Frodo often as his 'master', I previously thought this was in reference to his task as ring-bearer and that Sam was his companion.


----------



## Barliman Butterbur (Apr 25, 2008)

Sammyboy said:


> ...Sam was his gardener, so was employed by him and this explains why he referred to Frodo often as his 'master', I previously thought this was in reference to his task as ring-bearer and that Sam was his companion.



This relationship is pretty much based on the "batman" tradition of the British military: the batman was the officer's personal servant, and was totally devoted to seeing to it that all preparations were made that allowed the officer's duties to be carried out as efficiently as possible.

Oxford Dictionary, 2nd Edition: ORIGIN mid 18th cent.(originally denoting an orderly in charge of the bat horse [packhorse] that carried the officer's baggage): from Old French bat (from medieval Latin bastum ‘packsaddle’ ) + man .

Barley


----------



## Ithrynluin (Apr 26, 2008)

And here I thought it was more like a Batman & Robin kinda thing...


----------



## Firawyn (Apr 26, 2008)

Here's another hobbit question, and I am still deliberating on if I should have just started a new thread for this - but it did occur to me in reference to this on-topic conversation we're having.


What's the deal with Hobbit education? One would think that, as in many societies, it is the wealthy who receive the schooling - but if that were the case, why was Frodo the only one really educated (of the four hobbits in the Fellowship)?

Sam was the son of a farmer - I get that. But as Echo pointed out, Merry and Pippin also came from wealthy families, and yet they were not the ones translating elven runes! 

Why? 

How?

Who?

Where?

What?

When?


(Yes I did just get carried away...)


----------



## HLGStrider (Apr 26, 2008)

Translating runes in Hobbiton would be a bit like knowing Latin in modern day America. Pretty much useless unless you are in a very academic field. Also, given the dislike that most Hobbits had for outsiders, learning another race's language would be seen as a frivolous way to spend time.

Bilbo was a traveler and had an interest for these things in his heart. Merry and Pippin were probably the kind of kids who spent class drawing caricatures of their English teachers on their class schedules. They probably didn't go for the "extra-curricular" stuff. 

Note: I'm not being literal, here. I know they didn't have a public education system with classes and English teachers. Probably more a tutor system.


----------



## Echo (Apr 27, 2008)

Hobbits as a general rule did not concern themselves with matters outside the Shire, so learning Elven-speak and translating runes would be looked on with suspicion. Here's another example of their mistrust of education. When the Gaffer tells his friends at the pub that Sam had "learned his letters" from Bilbo, he adds hastily that he hopes "no harm will come of it". All hobbits wanted was to be left alone to leave peacefully in the Shire...world knowledge was not a part of their daily lives. I think Tolkien says that the majority of hobbits remain mostly uneducated throughout their lives.


----------



## Barliman Butterbur (Apr 27, 2008)

Hobbits were, as I understand it, to some degree illiterate — but certainly not stupid. I assume that the hobbits who needed and wanted to read and write did, witness the post office that was "blocked" when Bilbo sent out his party invitations. And the signs that hung outside of various commercial establishments: cobblers, taverns, etc., certainly contained words. Yet those signs had to make sense to the illiterate as well, hence symbols (such as a beer mug for a tavern).

These were rural people, farmers, craftsmen, merchants and, to a certain degree, just the ordinary run of "country bumpkins." I daresay what formal education that went on consisted of parents teaching their children their "letters and numbers" — homeschooling as it were.

Barley


----------



## Firawyn (Apr 28, 2008)

Barliman Butterbur said:


> I daresay what formal education that went on consisted of parents teaching their children their "letters and numbers" — homeschooling as it were.
> 
> Barley




Oh! Cheers to that!


 Yes I was homeschooled.


----------



## Tar-Surion (Jul 23, 2008)

It just occurred to me that although illiterate the Hobbits had a post office and wrote letters to each other. Could Frodo have earned a living writing letters for other people? There was such a profession in the era before mass-education; the scribe or scrivener.

Not just letters either, but wills and other legal documents, accounts and the like.

In short Frodo may have been a combination scrivener, solicitor and accountant. He may have had an office in Bag End; it was surely large enough. Did he deliver mail to people in his tramps around the Shire? Was he attached to the Hobbit post office in some way, perhaps unofficially? In rural England, on which the Shire was based, the gentry were expected to engage themselves in the public service; it is only quite recently that such duties were taken over by paid bureaucrats.

Although crime was unheard of in the Shire disputes over property and land must have been common. As a member of the gentry and a hobbit of learning many of the less sophisticated folk must have brought these disputes to Mr Frodo. Did he therefore function as a rural magistrate of some kind? No doubt he was patient and courteous and his judgments were always fair.

And how was he paid? Obviously money existed in the Shire but how widespread was it? It may well be that Frodo, and presumably Bilbo before him, were paid largely in kind for their services, as befits a society of subsistence farmers. 

There is another possibility. There was some kind of feudal relationship between the Baggins and Gamgee families but were there others involved? Was there an estate attached to Bag End from which the Baggines maintained their leisured gentility? If so Frodo's main task in life would have been the management of this estate, no doubt under the advice of Gaffer Gamgee and other horny-handed tillers of the soil.

It's a pity we don't know more about about this aspect of Hobbit society. Like Dickens, the Professor, as an academic of relatively elevated social background, was a little vague about the nuts and bolts of how people earned a living.


----------



## Barliman Butterbur (Jul 23, 2008)

Firawyn said:


> Oh! Cheers to that!
> 
> 
> Yes I was homeschooled.



Hey, nobody's perfect!  

Barley


----------



## Persephone (Jul 23, 2008)

Tar-Surion said:


> It just occurred to me that although illiterate the Hobbits had a post office and wrote letters to each other.



By illiterate you mean because there were no schools mentioned in Hobbiton, right? 

Were the other races schooled? The dwarfs had their own language too, written and spoken, and I don't recall any schools for dwarfs either. Were there schools for elves?

I think as far as education goes, in Middle Earth it's something passed down from the parents rather than learned from an institution.

I could be wrong, though.




Tar-Surion said:


> Could Frodo have earned a living writing letters for other people? There was such a profession in the era before mass-education; the scribe or scrivener.



Interesting theory, though I don't think Frodo could have done this kind of job if he ever needed one. I don't think he or Bilbo needed any kind of job. Hobbits are known for their laid-back lifestyle and I think if they can afford not to do a thing and still eat 6 meals a day they would. Plus, writing for them is a luxury they appear to enjoy a lot, especially the Bagginses.



Tar-Surion said:


> Not just letters either, but wills and other legal documents, accounts and the like.
> 
> In short Frodo may have been a combination scrivener, solicitor and accountant. He may have had an office in Bag End; it was surely large enough. Did he deliver mail to people in his tramps around the Shire? Was he attached to the Hobbit post office in some way, perhaps unofficially? In rural England, on which the Shire was based, the gentry were expected to engage themselves in the public service; it is only quite recently that such duties were taken over by paid bureaucrats.
> 
> Although crime was unheard of in the Shire disputes over property and land must have been common. As a member of the gentry and a hobbit of learning many of the less sophisticated folk must have brought these disputes to Mr Frodo. Did he therefore function as a rural magistrate of some kind? No doubt he was patient and courteous and his judgments were always fair.



I don't remember reading any mention of the Mayor getting any payment, but I suppose they got something out of being Mayor. So, if Frodo did do any of those suggested tasks, I think it's logical to assume he got something for it, too. 

Then again, where did the other Hobbits get their money? Or maybe it was a barter system. Did they use coins? Bilbo had pots of gold and silver from his adventures and Frodo inherited that. What about the less-adventurous Hobbits, what kind of treasures do they have?

Very interesting.


----------



## HLGStrider (Jul 24, 2008)

Money is mentioned a few times in the Lord of the Rings by Hobbits so it is safe to assume they had some form of currency or coinage (Frodo thinking he had very little money to "pay" Strider off with before he has learned to trust him, for example.). I used to have a thread asking whether or not they had their own mint and it was suggested that they could just as easily use other nation's/race's coins if there was a respected gold standard among these. 

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?t=12109&highlight=money

Found the thread. Take a look if you would like. It's somewhat dusty. I still think Frodo's lifestyle can be accounted for mainly by family wealth and treasure.


----------



## Persephone (Jul 24, 2008)

HLGStrider said:


> Money is mentioned a few times in the Lord of the Rings by Hobbits so it is safe to assume they had some form of currency or coinage (Frodo thinking he had very little money to "pay" Strider off with before he has learned to trust him, for example.). I used to have a thread asking whether or not they had their own mint and it was suggested that they could just as easily use other nation's/race's coins if there was a respected gold standard among these.
> 
> http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?t=12109&highlight=money
> 
> Found the thread. Take a look if you would like. It's somewhat dusty. I still think Frodo's lifestyle can be accounted for mainly by family wealth and treasure.



Forgot about that bit. Been a while since I last read the books, but I agree that most of his money he got from dear old Bilbo and Bilbo got his from his adventures in the Lonely Mountain. 

This digs up another question: What did Bilbo do for a living before he was recruited by Gandalf? If this was this answered elsewhere, I would like to read the thread.

If there was a standard money used in ME, I don't think the Hobbits would be the ones producing it as they have no talent for digging gold or anything industrial. I've always thought of them as an agricultural bunch.


----------



## HLGStrider (Jul 24, 2008)

I always assumed he was living off of his family fortune. The house obviously belonged to them and I always assumed the Gamgee's home also belonged to him. Perhaps he was a land owner and had people paying rent. He could've owned fields that other people worked for a share in the harvest and he never even bothered to look at. Sam never mentions wages and yet he works for Frodo, perhaps in return for room and board only.


----------



## Firawyn (Jul 24, 2008)

Barliman Butterbur said:


> Hey, nobody's perfect!
> 
> Barley



Oh I'm shocked! I never thought I'd live to see the day that _Barley_ admitted he wasn't perfect!


----------



## Persephone (Jul 24, 2008)

HLGStrider said:


> ... Sam never mentions wages and yet he works for Frodo, perhaps in return for room and board only.




Interesting point and would actually explain his uncanny devotion to Dear Mr. Frodo. Sam and the Gamgees living in a home out of the kindness of the Bagginses is a very good reason to love someone like family.

Good point.


----------



## HLGStrider (Jul 24, 2008)

I was just thinking, though, that obviously there was some sort of profit involved because they had money for ale . . . unless they were trading taters for drinks, which is definitely an option.


----------



## Persephone (Jul 24, 2008)

HLGStrider said:


> I was just thinking, though, that obviously there was some sort of profit involved because they had money for ale . . . unless they were trading taters for drinks, which is definitely an option.




LOL! Trading potatoes for ale! That's original. And what about Pipe weed? That certainly shouldn't come for free.


----------



## Firawyn (Jul 24, 2008)

Narya said:


> Interesting point and would actually explain his uncanny devotion to Dear Mr. Frodo. Sam and the Gamgees living in a home out of the kindness of the Bagginses is a very good reason to love someone like family.
> 
> Good point.



I've always thought it was because they were close freinds, the devotion I mean. Frodo was an orphan, and Sam - do we know what happened to his mother? _Lord of the Rings_ only ever mentions his father, the Old Gaffer, to my memory. They bonded as tweens who were both missing parents. 

I could compare Sam and Frodo to Ron Weasley and Harry Potter in _Harry Potter_. Ron was loyal to Harry not for his wealth, but because they both had difficult home lives, and were both teased about their families. 

Hards lives bond people. Been there, done that, myself.


----------



## HLGStrider (Jul 24, 2008)

> And what about Pipe weed? That certainly shouldn't come for free.


Obviously not free . . . the surgeon general's warning alone must cost at least a couple of taters to produce.


----------



## HLGStrider (Jul 24, 2008)

Firawyn said:


> I've always thought it was because they were close freinds, the devotion I mean. Frodo was an orphan, and Sam - do we know what happened to his mother? _Lord of the Rings_ only ever mentions his father, the Old Gaffer, to my memory. They bonded as tweens who were both missing parents.
> 
> I could compare Sam and Frodo to Ron Weasley and Harry Potter in _Harry Potter_. Ron was loyal to Harry not for his wealth, but because they both had difficult home lives, and were both teased about their families.
> 
> Hards lives bond people. Been there, done that, myself.



I wouldn't say Frodo had a hard life. He never knew his parents, as far as I can tell, and was kept very lovingly by Bilbo. Sam's father was definitely what I would consider and aged Hobbit, so I didn't think it all the unnatural that he could be a widower. 

Sam's devotion was partially friendship but there was also something in it of a servant's heart.


----------



## Firawyn (Jul 24, 2008)

If you would say that growing up not knowing your parents doesn't make a life hard...you must have had good and loving parents who are both still living.


----------



## Persephone (Jul 24, 2008)

Firawyn said:


> I've always thought it was because they were close freinds, the devotion I mean. Frodo was an orphan, and Sam - do we know what happened to his mother? _Lord of the Rings_ only ever mentions his father, the Old Gaffer, to my memory. They bonded as tweens who were both missing parents.
> 
> I could compare Sam and Frodo to Ron Weasley and Harry Potter in _Harry Potter_. Ron was loyal to Harry not for his wealth, but because they both had difficult home lives, and were both teased about their families.
> 
> Hards lives bond people. Been there, done that, myself.



Funny you use that analogy, many HP Slash people have the same reasoning.  But Sam's love for Frodo, even in the films, doesn't appear to come from friendship. I don't think Sam sees Frodo as his equal and even when Frodo gave Bag End to him, I don't think it changed his perspective. He has always, in my opinion, viewed Frodo as someone superior and that's where his love is based on: Loyalty and gratitude rather than actual friendship. Frodo shared a different relationship with Merry and Pippin, more on equal footing than Samwise.

Don't get me started on the Ron and Harry thing. (lol!) I got into soooo many silly debates with that one.


----------



## Persephone (Jul 24, 2008)

Firawyn said:


> If you would say that growing up not knowing your parents doesn't make a life hard...you must have had good and loving parents who are both still living.




Having no parents is very hard. I'm a single mom and though my kid rarely looks for her biological father, I can see how hard it is for her not knowing exactly who he is. 

She's homeschooled, too, Fir.


----------



## Persephone (Jul 24, 2008)

HLGStrider said:


> Obviously not free . . . the surgeon general's warning alone must cost at least a couple of taters to produce.




LOL! Especially the 1492 crop! Those were very special.


----------



## Firawyn (Jul 25, 2008)

Homeschooling is such fun, isn't it?


----------



## HLGStrider (Jul 25, 2008)

I don't know how it came up, but yeah, it is.


----------



## Tar-Surion (Jul 25, 2008)

People have brought up some good points. As has been pointed out, Hobbit pubs would have to use money as it would be impractical for people to pay for their ale in produce; every pub would have to have a large warehouse attached to store people's payment. This suggests that money was widespread and in constant use.

There are references in the first chapter to the purchase of provisions for the Long Expected Party, again that suggests money.

Another thing: Frodo sold Bag End to the Sackville-Bagginses and bought the house in Crickhollow with the proceeds. This suggests that there was a market in houses and possibly land at least among the Hobbit gentry. How did the Sackville-Bagginses pay? Presumably with gold, bags of it, and they didn't get their money from dragon-hoards but some other source. 

As Hobbits did not engage in commerce with the outside world this suggests estate-farming or quasi-feudalism, such as we see in the relationship between Frodo and Sam. 

There was apparently a Hobbit elite, a squirearchy or gentry rather than an aristocracy, of which Bilbo and Frodo were members, who extracted a living from the sweat of their tenant or dependent farmers; however given the simple fact that Hobbits were well-fed and contented, it is unlikely this class was very large or very rapacious. Hobbits are kindly folk and their leaders not very much richer than their followers, and certainly not all that different culturally, as you find when a true class-structure is in place. 

Bilbo and Frodo had an interest in Elven high culture, but there is no evidence that anyone else in the Shire shared their tastes. It was an individual eccentricity, not a part of elite culture, which didn't exist.

There certainly was a money-economy, based upon a regular issue of native coinage, though it is likely that there was a far larger one based on barter living along-side it.

For my reasoning on this one please see the "Basic Hobbit Economics" thread


----------



## HLGStrider (Jul 25, 2008)

I think they would've had to trade for outside metals, though. I've never heard of Hobbits mining or that the Shire was especially rich in mineral resources. You'd think, if it was, not even the Rangers would've been able to keep out greedy outsiders.


----------



## Tar-Surion (Jul 25, 2008)

I agree. An unmilitary people Hobbits would have needed little iron, just enough for nails and tools and pony-shoes.

They probably obtained iron ingots and the precious metals they needed for jewelry and coins from the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains in exchange for grain and other foodstuffs.


----------



## Persephone (Jul 26, 2008)

Tar-Surion said:


> I agree. An unmilitary people Hobbits would have needed little iron, just enough for nails and tools and pony-shoes.
> 
> They probably obtained iron ingots and the precious metals they needed for jewelry and coins from the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains in exchange for grain and other foodstuffs.



Which answers the question of whether Dwarfs were agricultural, don't you think?


----------



## Firawyn (Jul 26, 2008)

Narya said:


> LOL! Especially the 1492 crop! Those were very special.



I thought it was 1292...


----------



## Tar-Surion (Aug 14, 2008)

'That were a proper 1420, that were.'


----------



## Persephone (Aug 14, 2008)

Tar-Surion said:


> 'That were a proper 1420, that were.'




Looks like we're both wrong, Fir.


----------



## Firawyn (Aug 14, 2008)

I think Bilbo says 1292 in the film...I need to rewatch and reread LotR...I'm slacking.


----------

