# The Sins of the Father?



## Ancalagon (Oct 1, 2002)

> Finwë was King of the Noldor. The sons of Finwë were Fëanor, and Fingolfin, and Finarfin; but the mother of Fëanor was Míriel Serindë, whereas the mother of Fingolfin and Finarfin was Indis of the Vanyar.


Many times this relationship has been analysed between Fëanor and his half-brothers Fingolfin and Finarfin. Yet ever it strikes me that Fëanor, although he dearly loved his father, was disgraced by his marriage to Indis and subsequent offspring. 


> The wedding of his father was not pleasing to Fëanor; and he had no great love for Indis, nor for Fingolfin and Finarfin, her sons.


However, it was spoken among the Noldor that had Finwë not made this choice, many of the woes that befell that race thereafter may have been avoided.


> In those unhappy things which later came to pass, and in which Fëanor was the leader, many saw the effect of this breach within the house of Finwë, judging that if Finwë had endured his loss and been content with the fathering of his mighty son, the courses of Fëanor would have been otherwise, and great evil might have been prevented; for the sorrow and the strife in the house of Finwë is graven in the memory of the Noldorin Elves.


I reject this theory totally. I believe that Finwë did no such wrong that he should be considered the origin of the woes that befell the Noldor at the hands of Fëanor. It was Fëanors disgust at his father choosing any other after the death of his Mother. I would contend that Fëanor not only felt responsible for the death of his mother, but that he felt his father should share a part in both blame and grief at the loss of Míriel Serindë. Could it be that not only did he feel his Father was partly to blame for her death, but his marriage to Indis was an insult to her memory? 
Fëanor resented his fathers weakness (as he saw it) for marrying Niniel. Fëanor also resented Finwë's fathering of Fingolfin and Finarfin as he considered them an insult to his mother who had died giving birth to him. He also considered them to be a lasting reminder that he alone was accountable for his Mothers departure and that his father had forsaken the memory of Miriel. Fëanor could not reconcile himself to the fact that he thought his Father did not grieve as he should nor bear the responsibility of guilt that Feanor was so blatantly afflicted with.

Finwë is blameless for his actions, and no sins of his were visited upon his Sons.


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## Maedhros (Oct 1, 2002)

> Yet ever it strikes me that Fëanor, although he dearly loved his father, was disgraced by his marriage to Indis and subsequent offspring.


Me too.


> I believe that Finwë did no such wrong that he should be considered the origin of the woes that befell the Noldor at the hands of Fëanor.


Are you sure?
From Morgoth's Ring: Stature of Finwë and Míriel


> 'Thus Finwë was aggrieved and claimed justice. But when he called her and she did not return, in only a few years he fell into despair. Herein lay his fault, and failing in Hope. But also he founded his claim mainly upon his desire for children, considering his own self and his loss more than the griefs that had befallen his wife: that was a failing in full love.





> Finwë is blameless for his actions, and no sins of his were visited upon his Sons.


Oh, he had guilt all right. He failed his wife and son.


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## Confusticated (Oct 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ancalagon _
> *
> However, it was spoken among the Noldor that had Finwë not made this choice, many of the woes that befell that race thereafter may have been avoided.*



I think that what the Noldor said is probably true. But I would not blame Finwe


> *I reject this theory totally. I believe that Finwë did no such wrong that he should be considered the origin of the woes that befell the Noldor at the hands of Fëanor.*


I do not think that someone has to do a wrong thing to be the origin of something bad.



> *Could it be that not only did he feel his Father was partly to blame for her death, but his marriage to Indis was an insult to her memory? *


I do not know if he blamed his father, but I think that he viewed it as an insult to her memory. I do not know if it is a common thing that an Elf remarries after their spouse dies, but it seems to me that it would be uncommon since they would be reunited again eventually and Elves are pateint beings who are loyal to their spouses.




> *
> Fëanor resented his fathers weakness (as he saw it) for marrying Niniel. Fëanor also resented Finwë's fathering of Fingolfin and Finarfin as he considered them an insult to his mother who had died giving birth to him. He also considered them to be a lasting reminder that he alone was accountable for his Mothers departure and that his father had forsaken the memory of Miriel. Fëanor could not reconcile himself to the fact that he thought his Father did not grieve as he should nor bear the responsibility of guilt that Feanor was so blatantly afflicted with.*


I think he also resented it because he was jealous that he did not get all of his father's love.


> *
> Finwë is blameless for his actions, and no sins of his were visited upon his Sons. *


Because there was no mention of any Elves other than Feanor disliking Finwe gettng a new wife, I assume that what he did was not looked down upon or considered a wrong by elves. If this is true than I say that he should not be blamed.
Even if that is not true one could say that his actions caused Feanor to be the way he was but I can not imagine blaming him for all that followed.


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## Ithrynluin (Oct 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ancalagon _
> *However, it was spoken among the Noldor that had Finwë not made this choice, many of the woes that befell that race thereafter may have been avoided. *





> _Originally posted by Confusticated _
> *I think that what the Noldor said is probably true. But I would not blame Finwe. *



That is true to some extent but then we MUST NOT disregard this:



> But the children of Indis were great and glorious, and their children also; and if they had not lived the history of the Eldar would have been diminished.



Indeed to what sad end would the Eldar have come if it were not for the (grand)children of Indis? I think that the descendants of Indis were more important for the history of the world than those of Miriel.
Would Fëanor even have created the great jewels if it were not for the hair of Galadriel which (according to UT) inspired him to do this?
There are many many instances of the glory and importance of the children of Indis and Finwë - I don't think I have to name them all.

No,Finwë can definitely be held blameless in all this,as was his wife.
Just my opinion.


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## Confusticated (Oct 2, 2002)

*Re: Re: The Sins of the Father?*



> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *That is true to some extent but then we MUST NOT disregard this:
> Indeed to what sad end would the Eldar have come if it were not for the (grand)children of Indis? I think that the descendants of Indis were more important for the history of the world than those of Miriel.
> Would Fëanor even have created the great jewels if it were not for the hair of Galadriel which (according to UT) inspired him to do this?
> ...


Are you implying that Finwe did a great thing in getting a new wife and having a couple more sons? If so, and you still agree that it was because of Finwe's actions that Feanor was how he was then consider this: It was because of Feanor's doings that The Sons of his brothers ended up making such a difference, and doing great things (such as Fingon and Finrod
In this situation what came first? Feanor's doings came first. If not for him, his nephews would not need to have did all that they did.
Because of that I do not see how it matters much, and I do not think there is any contradiction in someone viewing Finwe's actions as causing more harm than good.

To what sad end would they have come? No, I say what sad begining might have been prevented.

As for the Silmarils, who knows what things would have been like without them.


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## Ithrynluin (Oct 2, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: The Sins of the Father?*



> _Originally posted by Confusticated _
> *Are you implying that Finwe did a great thing in getting a new wife and having a couple more sons? ...and I do not think there is any contradiction in someone viewing Finwe's actions as causing more harm than good.*



No,not a GREAT thing....more of a necessity really. You said yourself that it is a very uncommon thing for an elf to marry for a second time because of the whole "reunion" thing. So Finwë is an exception. I don't know whether he was guided by "fate" or whatever you want to call it, Fingolfin,Finarfin and their descendants were all part of a greater plan. 
And no,I don't see Finwë's actions as causing more harm than good, they caused both _equally_.
But that is my opinion of course.


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## Gothmog (Oct 2, 2002)

The following quotes all come from Mogoth's Ring: Later versions of the Story OF FINWE AND MIRIEL.



> Finwe lived in sorrow; and he went often to the gardens of Lorien, and sitting beneath the silver willows beside the body of his wife he called her by her names. But it was of no avail, and Finwe alone in all the Blessed Realm was bereaved of joy. After a while he went to Lorien no more, for it increased his grief to see the fair form of Miriel that would not hear his call. All his love he gave now to his son; for Feanor in childhood was like his mother in voice and countenance, and Finwe was to him both father and mother and there was a double bond of love upon them.


Finwe tried long and hard to get Miriel to return to her husband and son. When she did not he did all that he could for Feanor.



> 'How shall a marriage be ended for ever? By the will of the Dead, or by the doom of Mandos. By the will of the Dead, if they refuse ever to return to the life of the body; by the doom of Mandos, if he will not permit them to return. For a union that was for the life of Arda is ended, if it cannot be resumed within the life of Arda.


When he went before the Valar he was told how thaings must be and that only if the fea of the spouse remain in Mandos for ever can the marrage be ended.



> Finwe answered: 'I am in no haste, My Lord, and my heart has no desire, save the hope that when this doom is made clear to Miriel, she may yet relent and set a term to my bereavement.'


Finwe hoped only for the return of Miriel. He was prepared to wait.



> Vaire with whom Miriel dwelt made known to her the doom,(7) and spoke also of the sorrow of Finwe. But Miriel answered: 'I came hither to escape from the body, and I do not desire ever to return to it, My life has gone out into Feanor, my son. That gift I have given to him whom I loved. I can give no more. Beyond Arda this may be healed, but not within it.'


It was Miriel who refused to return to her body and therefore denied to Finwe and Feanor her love and support at the time they needed it most.



> But Mandos said: It is not lawful for the Valar to constrain the Dead to return'; and he summoned the spirit of Miriel to appear before him. 'Thy will must rule in this matter, spirit of Miriel, once wife of Finwe,' he said. 'In Mandos thou shalt abide. But take heed! Thou art of the Quendi, and even if thou refuse the body, thou must remain in Arda and within the time of its history. The Eldar are not as the Valar. Their spirits are less strong to stand than thou deemest. Do not wonder, then, if thy will should change in time, and this doom which thou takest upon thyself become grievous to thee. Yea, and to many others!'
> But the spirit of Miriel remained silent. Mandos therefore accepted her choice, and she went then to the Halls of Waiting appointed to the Eldar and was left in peace.


Even when told that she must stay in Mandos for the life of Arda she remained obdurate. She would not even consider returning. It was not Finwe's fault that she chose this path. It was Miriel's decision to refuse her body and the cause of that decision was Feanor. Therefore I submit that not only was Finwe Blameless in the woes that followed, But that which was atributed to him by others should infact be laid more correctly at the door of Feanor himself. If any other than Feanor be held accountable then that one would be Miriel Perinde.


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## Maedhros (Oct 2, 2002)

> Finwë tried long and hard to get Míriel to return to her husband and son. When she did not he did all that he could for Fëanor.





> 'Thus Finwë was aggrieved and claimed justice. But when he called her and she did not return,* in only a few years he fell into despair. Herein lay his fault, and failing in Hope. But also he founded his claim mainly upon his desire for children, considering his own self and his loss more than the griefs that had befallen his wife*: that was a failing in full love.


Apparently, not long enough.


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## Gothmog (Oct 2, 2002)

> 'Nay!' said Vaire suddenly. 'The fea of Miriel is with me. I know it well, for it is small. But it is strong; proud and obdurate. It is of that sort who having said: this I will do, make their words a doom irrevocable unto themselves. *She will not return to life, or to Finwe, even if he waiteth until the ageing of the world. Of this he is aware* , I deem, as his words show. For he did not found his claim on his desire for children only, but he said to the King: my heart warns me that Miriel will not return while Arda lasts. Of what sort the knowledge or belief may be that he would thus express, and whence it came to him, 1 know not. But fea perceiveth fea and knoweth the disposition of the other, in marriage especially, in ways that we cannot fully understand. We cannot probe all the mystery of the nature of the Children. But if we are to speak of Justice, then Finwe's belief must be taken into account; and if, as I judge, it is well-founded, not a fantasy of his own inconstancy, but against his will and desire, we must otherwise assess the faults of these two. When one of the Queens of the Valar, Varda or Yavanna, or even I, departeth for ever from Arda, and leaveth her spouse, will he or nill he,(14) then let that spouse judge Finwe, if he will, remembering that Finwe cannot follow Miriel without doing wrong to his nature, nor without forsaking the duty and bond of his fatherhood.'



Long Enough to be sure according to Vaire.

And I note that you do not dispute the accountability of Miriel.


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## Turgon (Oct 3, 2002)

As far as I can see Finwë did nothing but follow the dictates of his own heart - of course he is blameless... but what constitutes a few years to an elf anyway? fifty? one hundred? Are we talking _yén_ or _loa_.

Out of interest, can anybody clarify just how long Finwë waited before his marriage to Indis... or to put it another way... how old was Fëanor when Fingolfin was born...was he full grown...? can't seem to remember... 

But I think it could shed some light into how long Finwë actually waited.


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## Maedhros (Oct 21, 2002)

> Out of interest, can anybody clarify just how long Finwë waited before his marriage to Indis... or to put it another way... how old was Fëanor when Fingolfin was born...was he full grown...? can't seem to remember...


Hmmmm. It depends wheter you take into account the Shibboleth of Fëanor. In Later Quentas Home X, it is said that Míriel died after giving birth to Fëanor, but in the Shibboleth of Fëanor Home XII it is said that Míriel endured her weariness until Fëanor was full grown. Usually, for an elf to be full grown, you needed 50 years. So there is an actual difference that must be addressed before answering your question.


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## Elfarmari (Nov 7, 2002)

I was just reading older threads, and found this one interesting.


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## Arvedui (Nov 8, 2002)

I do not have a degree in psychology, which seems to be needed to defend either Finwë or Fëanor, but I find it hard to blame Finwë in this matter. Fëanor was after all, wed to Nerdanel before Finwë married Indis the Fair. I'm not sure if Fëanor and Nerdanel had some or any children before his father remarried. I only have the Sil to help me with in this matter, but if that is to be read chronologically (sp?) in this case, the seven sons are mentioned before the remarrying of Finwë.


> Now it came to pass that Finwë took as his second wife Indis the Fair. She was a Vanya, close kin of Ingwë the High King, golden haired and tall, and in all ways unlike Míriel. Finwë loved her greatly, and was glad again. But the shadow of Míriel did not depart from the house of Finwë, nor from his heart; and of all whom he loved Fëanor had ever the chief share of his thought.


Okay: Finwë still loved his son, no doubt about that. And this is where the lack of psychology degree comes in. IMO it is not unpropper to compare the reaction of Fëanor with those of any other human child that gets a baby brother. As far as I have experienced, if the oldest son is of some age, at least old enough to understand that some compettitor for the attention of ones parents has arrived, the normal reaction will be jealousy. I think there are ample evidence of older children hurting the baby brother or sister, to give my attempt at explanation some hold against critics.
As far as Finwë goes, I really feel for him. He endured the loss of his wife, and did all he could for Fëanor, who , by the description in the Sil, could not have been an easy child to upbring. And after all the grief of the departure of Míriel whom he loved dearly, and the labour of bringing up Fëanor, he meets Indis. He knows by now that the marriage to Míriel is over, that she is unwilling to return, and he falls in love. It's as easy as that!
I don't know how many out there who think they can control their feelings in such matter? I once thought I did. Now I know better.

The court of Arvedui rules Finwë: Not guilty!


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## kohaku (Dec 3, 2002)

It is possible that Finwe's actions indirectly led to all that followed, but I would not put him at blame. Feanor was displeased with his father's remarriage and resented his new siblings. It is on this that Melkor's lies focused, stirring up ever more pride and jealousy in Feanor against Fingolfin and Finarfin. Therefore Finwe's actions resulted in the fall of the Noldor by creating a rift between his sons, upon which Melkor worked his evils. But I would not say Finwe is to blame, because I don't think his remarriage was wrong.


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