# Finarfin king of the Noldor



## Kahmûl (Aug 29, 2003)

At the end of the war of the ring when Frodo sailed to Valinor was Finarfin still king of the Noldor?


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## BelDain (Aug 29, 2003)

yeah, until Frodo deposed him.


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## Beleg (Aug 30, 2003)

Perhaps, perhaps Fingolfin had been re-incarnated and have taken the Kingship back?


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## Flammifer (Aug 30, 2003)

> At the end of the war of the ring when Frodo sailed to Valinor was Finarfin still king of the Noldor?



We must assume so I think.

The idea that Beleg suggested about Fingolfin reincarnating and reclaiming the kingship might make sense, but wouldn't that kind of cause a conflict? Those things don't tend to happen in Eressea, unless Morgoth had something to do with it.


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## Beleg (Aug 30, 2003)

> The idea that Beleg suggested about Fingolfin reincarnating and reclaiming the kingship might make sense, but wouldn't that kind of cause a conflict? Those things don't tend to happen in Eressea, unless Morgoth had something to do with it.



Why would it create conflict?
Remember, Arafinwe and Nolofinwe are the children of one mother and there was never any conflict between them.


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## Flammifer (Aug 30, 2003)

> Why would it create conflict?
> Remember, Arafinwe and Nolofinwe are the children of one mother and there was never any conflict between them.



No no you sorry should've made myself clearer. I mean that Fingolfin coming back from the dead and saying:

"Hey I'm back! Morgoth killed me so I'm here to wrest your kingship from you Finarfin! See ya later!"

I don't see that happening without Finarfin getting a little bit er...annoyed, even if Finarfin is of a high order of Elves.

Besides, as one of the Exiles, the Valar probably wouldn't have allowed Fingolfin to leave the Halls of Mandos even after he was killed...technically he wasn't allowed to come back to Tirion, so in the Halls of Mandos he would have remained.


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## Beleg (Aug 30, 2003)

> Besides, as one of the Exiles, the Valar probably wouldn't have allowed Fingolfin to leave the Halls of Mandos even after he was killed



Glorifindel was allowed, apparantly Finrod was allowed, so why not Fingolfin? 



> technically he wasn't allowed to come back to Tirion, so in the Halls of Mandos he would have remained.


Who says? The ban was lifted at the end of the first age. It is explictly stated that only Feanor and Finwe won't come back so there is a big chance that he might have returned.

Edit: 


> maybe by the time Frodo arrived in Eressea (Where does it say he went to Aman ?


Very important point. Finarfin must be ruling in Eldamar, while the exiles mostly returned to Tol Eressa although I am not sure where would those [Who are re-incarnated] would live.


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## Flammifer (Aug 31, 2003)

Do we know that Glorfindel was an Exile? What if Glorfindel was born in Beleriand? Did the Ban apply to the children of the Exiles also? Do we know when Glorfindel did actually return?

But yeah I see your point. Except for the 'fat chance' bit. Doesn't that usually mean 'no chance'? Maybe that's just us crazy Aussies though!....


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## Inderjit S (Aug 31, 2003)

> Glorifindel was allowed, apparantly Finrod was allowed, so why not Fingolfin



They were allowed because of their special sacrifices in the WoTJ. Though that doesn't mean that Fingolfin and other Noldor weren't allowed to come back to life. Of course we hear in _Last Writings_ that all Elves were given the choice of coming back, but Manwe had the power to withold this if the spirit was particulary tainted or had some grudge against another being. 

I really doubt whether Fingolfin would reclaim the kingship _himself_ what is more possible is that the noble Finarfin would give the kingship back over to Fingolfin, though you must remember that most of the Noldor of Tirion would have been from Finarfin's people, at least in the early stages, maybe by the time Frodo arrived in Eressea (Where does it say he went to *Aman* ? I don't know it may say so in one of Tolkien's letters) a lot of Elves of Fingolfin or Feanor's following would have been re-incarnted. The only son of Feanor who I can imagine would be re-incaranted would be Amras. 



> Do we know that Glorfindel was an Exile



Glorfindel of LoTR was the same one who slew the Balrog in the Silmarillion. Glorfindel was said to be in Turgon's host when they departed from Aman but was dismayed by the departure.


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## Flammifer (Sep 1, 2003)

Cool thanks that's interesting stuff! Yeah good question about the Aman thing....maybe he went to Valinor......but maybe we can infer something from this:

"Frodo heard a sweet singing running in his mind: a song that seemed to come like a pale light behind a grey rain-curtain, and growing stronger to turn the veil all to glass and silver, until at last it was rolled back, and a far green country opened before him under a swift sunrise."

---> LotR, FotR, "Fog on the Barrow-downs".

Can any conclusions be drawn from that? Is Aman described like this? It's meant to be a green country right? Hmm I dunno. Oh well.


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## Nanelleth (Sep 1, 2003)

That sounds very much like Frodo's first sighting of the Undying Lands:


> And the ship went out into the High Sea and passed on into the West, until at last on a night of rain Frodo smelled a sweet fragrance on the air and heard the sound of singing that came over the water. And then it seemed to him that as in his dream in the house of Bombadil, the grey rain-curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he beheld white shores and beyond them a far green country under a swift sunrise.


Sounds pretty prophetic, although I did not find anywhere where is is specifically stated that Frodo went to Aman or Eressea. The references I have found only refer to him sailing into the West. I always just assumed he went to Aman with the other ringbearers since he went in Arwens place.


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Inderjit S _
> *maybe by the time Frodo arrived in Eressea (Where does it say he went to Aman ? I don't know it may say so in one of Tolkien's letters) *





> _Letters of JRR Tolkien; #325 to Roger Lancelyn Green_
> The 'immortals' who were permitted to leave Middle-earth and seek Aman – the undying lands of Valinor and Eressëa, an island assigned to the Eldar – set sail in ships specially made and hallowed for this voyage, and steered due West towards the ancient site of these lands.


Aman means both the isle of Eressëa and the mainland where the Valar dwelt. So Frodo definitely went to _Aman_, but we can't be sure to which part of it exactly.


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## Flammifer (Sep 3, 2003)

Ah yeah I was bit confused about that! Got it now! Thanks!


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## Arda's Bane (Nov 15, 2003)

> Perhaps, perhaps Fingolfin had been re-incarnated and have taken the Kingship back?



Now why would Fingolfin a traitor (of sorts) be re-incarnated to claim the throne of the Nolder and his father Finwe (who was guilty of nothing and who was the original king) not?


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## Beleg (Nov 15, 2003)

How was Fingolfin a traitor?

And read HOME 10.


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## Inderjit S (Nov 15, 2003)

Finwë Ñoldoran could never come back as he elected to remain in the Halls of Mandos forever so that his wife Míriel Þerinde could get our of the Halls of Mandos. 

I also don't recall Finarfin ever being called *King.* 

Maybe he means he is a traitor because he joined in the Rebellion. He played a prominent part in the rivalries between the Finwëans, which of course contributed to the Rebellion, if that is what he means.


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## redline2200 (Dec 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Beleg _
> *....apparantly Finrod was allowed....
> *



Ok.....let me get this straight......someone towards the beginning of this thread says that apparently Finrod gets to come back. When does this happen? I know he gave his life to save Beren in Sauron's pits, but i dont ever remember him coming back. Can someone fill my clueless mind in?


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## Inderjit S (Dec 6, 2003)

When Elves died, they were summoned to the _Halls of Mandos_ by Námo (Mandos) and some obeyed the summons, but some chose to reject them and their spirits (fëa) remained in Middle-Earth. (Read _Laws and Customs of the Eldar_ (HoME 10)) for more information.

Some Elves were released earlier then others, whilst some were not released at all. Finrod is in _Beren and Lúthien _ said to have been released by Námo. 



> They buried the body of Felagund upon the hill-top of his own isle, and it was clean again; and the green grave of Finrod Finarfin's son, fairest of all the princes of the Elves, remained inviolate, until the land was changed and broken, and foundered under destroying seas. But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar


 _Of Beren and Lúthien_ (Published Silmarillion)

Some bad-natured Elves (Such as say the sons of Fëanor, Saeros, Maeglin and various other Ñoldor, Sindar etc.) may have been kept for a great length of time in comparison to other Elves so that they could be "purged" so to speak of their sins.



> Their death – by any injury to their bodies so severe that it could not be healed – and the disembodiment of their spirits was an 'unnatural' and grievous matter. It was therefore the duty of the Valar, by command of the One, to restore them to incarnate life, if they desired it. But this 'restoration' could be delayed# by Manwë, if the fëa while alive had done evil deeds and refused to repent of them, or still harboured any malice against any other person among the living.


 _Last Wriitngs _ (HoME 12)


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