# Ancalagon vs. Glaurung



## Link

who wins?



I'm saying Ancalagon.


(Man, I haven't posted in a WHILE)


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## YayGollum

I'd go for Glaurung just because he's bigger and scarier and eviller as far as I know.


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## Celebthôl

Ancalagon (specially ours ) because he was the most powerful and he flew, thats gotta be the best...


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## Inderjit S

Ancalagon.


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## FoolOfATook

I don't know. I mean Anc was a great mod, but against a dragon....? 

In truth, I think that Ancalagon wins, claws down.


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## YayGollum

Well, at least I put reason. Am I a crazy person for missing something that says that Ancalagon was the most powerful?


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## BlackCaptain

I would say Glaurung. He's the father of dragons for jeeezes sakes!


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## GuardianRanger

From the appendix in The Silmarillion:



> Ancalagon	Greatest of the winged dragons of Morgoth, destroyed by Eärendil.





> Glaurung	The first of the Dragons of Morgoth, called the Father of Dragons; in the Dagor Bragollach, the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, and the Sack of Nargothrond; cast his spell upon Túrin and upon Nienor; slain by Túrin at Cabed-en-Aras. Called also the Great Worm and the Worm of Morgoth.


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## roguefrog

Glaurung. I got the impression when reading about him that he was unstoppable my friend, unstoppable! I wager one stone death stare and Ancalagon forgets who he is. Who's your daddy! (Literally)


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## Eriol

I would have to say Ancalagon. Didn't Gandalf say so? In the "The Shadow of the Past" chapter, or perhaps in "The Council of Elrond", when he is speaking about the possibility of melting the Ring?

(Come to think of it, it is surely in The Shadow of the Past, when he is telling Frodo his fire would not melt even ordinary gold).

Can someone come up with a quote? I think Gandalf says there that Ancalagon the Black had the hottest fire of all dragons, and perhaps more.


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## Theoden_king

I will say Ancalagon and I suppose Yay wants a reason well Anc could fly and I am sure it says Glaurung could not I dont have my books so I cant check.


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## Melko Belcha

I say Glaurung, look at all the destruction he caused and nobody was able to defeat him for a long time. Ancalagon was killed in the first battle he showed up in.


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## Gil-Galad

> _Originally posted by BlackCaptain _
> *I would say Glaurung. He's the father of dragons for jeeezes sakes! *


That is right!I vote for Glaurung.


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## Ithrynluin

> _Originally posted by BlackCaptain _
> *I would say Glaurung. He's the father of dragons for jeeezes sakes! *



Why does being the first have to imply being the greatest? Glaurung was the first, and Ancalagon was a "result" of many experiments and improvements that Morgoth tried out (e.g. wings); I think Ancalagon may have been "the final product", and therefore the greatest. Glaurung was more of a cunning dragon, and his main advantage were his spells which inflicted much woe upon the house of Húrin. Ancalagon strikes me as a "raw" fighting machine plus those wings must be a big plus for Anc and a shortcoming of Glaurung, and would therefore win a one-on-one fight. IMO of course. Plus those wings must be a big plus for Anc and the lack thereof a shortcoming for Glaurung,

Here's the quote that Eriol refers to, from _The Shadow of the Past_:



> ‘Your small fire, of course, would not melt even ordinary gold. This Ring has already passed through it unscathed, and even unheated. But there is no smith’s forge in this Shire that could change it at all. Not even the anvils and furnaces of the Dwarves could do that. It has been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough; [color=sky blue]nor was there ever any dragon, not even Ancalagon the Black, who could have harmed the One Ring, the Ruling Ring[/color], for that was made by Sauron himself. There is only one way: to find the Cracks of Doom in the depths of Orodruin, the Fire-mountain, and cast the Ring in there, if you really wish to destroy it, to put it beyond the grasp of the Enemy for ever.’





> _Originally posted by Melko Belcha _
> *I say Glaurung, look at all the destruction he caused and nobody was able to defeat him for a long time. Ancalagon was killed in the first battle he showed up in. *



The "first battle" Ancalagon participated in, was also the greatest battle there ever was - they were up against the host of the Valar for crying out loud. Plus it was Ancalagon & co. that drove back the forces of the Valar, until Eärendil showed up and slew him. Ancalagon's fall caused the mountains of Thangorodrim to crumble to bits.


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## BlackCaptain

Yowzer... Must you post quotes on every single thread you reply to? Think just how much damage Glalurung caused:

-Destroyed Nargothrond
-Killed Turin
-Probly some other really bad stuff I can't think of

What did Ancalagon do?:
-Greatest Winged dragon
-....


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## Gil-Galad

> _Originally posted by BlackCaptain _
> *Yowzer... Must you post quotes on every single thread you reply to? Think just how much damage Glalurung caused:
> 
> -Destroyed Nargothrond
> -Killed Turin
> -Probly some other really bad stuff I can't think of
> 
> 
> -.... *


I would add also............caused Niniel's tragedy.


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## YayGollum

Ack! Crazy people! It's too bad that more is said about Glaurung. oh well. From what I know, I would think that it would be obvious who's bigger and eviller and scarier. So what if Ancalagon can fly and is famous for some really hot breath? Glaurung had better armour and was a lot smarter and bigger and stronger. As far as I know. Someone prove me wrong. If this Ancalagon character got anywhere near Glaurung, he would get his head crushed or something.


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## Ithrynluin

> _Originally posted by BlackCaptain _
> *Think just how much damage Glalurung caused:
> 
> -Destroyed Nargothrond
> -Killed Turin
> -Probly some other really bad stuff I can't think of
> 
> *



Ancalagon was pitted against the mightiest of foes. How would Glaurung have fared against the Host of the Valar? And he didn't kill Turin, BTW.
Sure Glaurung bewitched the children of Hurin, and it was dangerous to mess with him, but he couldn't defeat Ancalagon in combat.



> *by YayGollum*
> Glaurung had better armour and was a lot smarter and bigger and stronger.



He did? He was? Quotes please. Or is that your opinion?
Sure he had spells, but do you really think they would have been helpful or effective against Ancalagon, Morgoth's latest creation?


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## YayGollum

Sure, I guess those were some opinions of mine. just like you saying things like ---> "but he couldn't defeat Ancalagon in combat" and ---> "Ancalagon, Morgoth's latest creation"  oh well. I liked to assume that he had better armour because he was older and, as far as I know, dragons get better armour the older they get. Silly me. I said that he was smarter and bigger and stronger just because I've never said anything that said how smart and big and strong that Ancalagon guy was. Whoops!


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## Elendil3119

> Before the rising of the sun Eärendil slew Ancalagon the Black, *the mightiest of the dragon-host*, and cast him from the sky; and he fell upon the towers of Thangorodrim, and they were broken in his ruin.


Ancalagon all the way!


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## YayGollum

Mightiest of the dragon-host at the time, crazy person. Glaurung wasn't around. Even though Glaurung was the first dragon around, I'm thinking that when they say he's the father of them, he's also the biggest and the baddest and the scariest and the evillest. oh well. It's not like there's any way we can prove it either way. *hides*


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## Elendil3119

I know crazy Yay person! My point is, was Glaurung ever mentioned in that way?


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## YayGollum

No, I don't remember ever seeing any little quote that says that Glaurung was the mightiest of some other dragon-host. So sorry. Oh, now I see why Ancalagon must be the mightiest dragon of all time! All because there's not a quote that says that Glaurung was the mightiest of some other dragon-host!


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## Beleg

I personally think it is Glaurung.


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## Inderjit S

Elendil I think that the title 'father of Dragons' is pretty self-explanatory in explaining that Glaurung was the most powerful of the host he was in. Also, he led the charge, for Bragollach so that is somewhat a indication of him being the mightiest of the host of Morgoth prior Nirnaeth etc. His brood also left the Nirnaeth when he was injured by Azaghal signifying he was what his brood relied on. But I think Ancalagon’s ability to fly gives him the edge. also Ancalagon is mentioned in the Dagorath as being the mightiest Dragon ever and that he would be slain by Turin. (As opposed to hi slaying of Morgoth) but I cannot find the passage and it isn't in the Second Prophecy since that says he slays Morgoth, though I fancy Andreth said it in the Athrabeth.


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## Mormegil

I am of the opinion that Glaurung was the greater Dragon.
I'm pretty sure he was huge, didn't he rest his head on a hill or something? So therefore much larger than Ancalagon. 
And wings don't neccessarily give Ancalagon an advantage, he would still have to swoop or land to attack Glaurung.
Their weaponry and armour must be pretty similar, but I would go with Glaurung because of his spellcasting abilities.


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## YayGollum

Woah! Yikes! I'd love to see the quote that Inderjit S person is talking about. Too scary. oh well. Anyways, sure, even though something does say that Glaurung's head was about as big as some unmeasured hill, I haven't heard how big Ancalagon was. oh well. Yes, I don't get how wings are that huge of an advantage, either. Tossing fire at each other isn't going to work.


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## Inderjit S

Ancalagon, when he was slain by Earendil landed upon and destroyed Thangordrim-doesn't that show a figure of some size.


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## Gil-Galad

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *Ancalagon was pitted against the mightiest of foes. *


I would say that Glaurung was pitted against the smartness of Turin.He died in an awful way that no a dragon deserves.He just didn't have a chance,just like Anc.


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## YayGollum

Sure, I don't doubt that Ancalagon was supposed to be pretty big. Too bad we don't have any real measurements for either of these people. oh well. I happen to think that Amon Rudh was bigger than Bag End. Too bad we don't know how big the hill was they were talking about in that Glaurung quote. oh well.


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## Gil-Galad

> _Originally posted by YayGollum _
> *Sure, I don't doubt that Ancalagon was supposed to be pretty big. Too bad we don't have any real measurements for either of these people. *


People?I thought they were big nasty dragons?!


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## YayGollum

In a sing-songy and patient parent telling some slow kid what's what type voice ---> Dragons are people, too, you know.


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## Link

It's funny, the people defending Glaurung, who think he is better, just say stuff like " Well I BET Glaurung could win, cause he's older and uh, has better armour and stuff." Completely random and made-up stuff.



While the people defending Ancalagon are giving exact details and quotes about how mighty he is.




I'm sorry, but when Glaurung dies, there is only one thing broken, the spell on Hurin's family. But when Ancalagon dies, the big baddest most impregnable mountains ever to be seen on earth are completely laid to waste.


In conclusion, Ancalagon was definately bigger because of the reasons above.


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## Ulmo321

Ancalagon (and his other winged dragon friends) did push back entire hosts of Valinor. That is no small feat.


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## Glomund

Here are some mistakes I have seen in the thread, and I would like to clear them up before I throw my opinion of the winner out there. The quote when Ancalagon was thrown down says he broke the towers of Thangordrim, not the mountains, so his size needs to be curtailed a bit. And Luthien in her spell of growth(in the lays of Beleriand) uses Glaurungs name, as being the biggest dragon. It could be argued that Anc.. was not known or alive at the time, but she does use the name of the chain that was to bind Melkor after the last battle,and so did not yet exist, I know from HoME that the final name of the chain was not set in stone, and it could have been the same chain that had bound him before. so the possibility exists she knew Glau.. was the biggest. The argument on Glaurungs spell ability is assuming Ancalagon did not have it. I do not think we can make that assumption, as Smaug had some powers like Glaurungs, he almost got Bilbo to fall under the "Dragon Spell". If Anc.. did have magic, then I would assume that they would each have been immune to the others magic. After all this, I must say I think Anc.. would win, he could fly, and so, if both dragons were fire drakes, and could not breath on each other, he could at least drop huge boulders and other objects on G, before closing for claw to claw. and as the more mobile dragon, he could fly around and choose his attack, while G would have to wait, and always be in a defensive position. The best reason he would win depends on if he was a fire drake or not. In the Sil, when the winged dragons are released, they come with thunder and _lightning_ and fire. So there is evidence he was a different sort, and used more than fire.
So there you go, my opinion is Ancalagon would win 6 or 7 out of ten fights. I wait for responses to this so I can spend more time looking through my books and avoid studying for finals


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## Gil-Galad

> _Originally posted by Link _
> *
> 
> I'm sorry, but when Glaurung dies, there is only one thing broken, the spell on Hurin's family. But when Ancalagon dies, the big baddest most impregnable mountains ever to be seen on earth are completely laid to waste.
> *


It would have happened the same thing if Glaurung have fallen at the place where Anc felt.


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## YayGollum

Woah, crazy Link person! Why do you think I made things up? As far as I know, dragons keep growing the older they get. That = Glaurung is bigger and has more armour than Ancalagon. I gots to agree with what this Gil-Galad person had to say. But then, there is that huge thing with the wings. That's the huge difference I would think. But then again, I love to think that Glaurung was older = wiser and smarter. oh well. It's not a huge deal. If Ancalagon ever got anywhere near Glaurung, I am achingly sure that he'd get killed. Who here thinks that Ancalagon could beat Glaurung if he didn't have wings?


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## Gil-Galad

See how beautiful it sounds:



> _Originally posted by YayGollum _
> * Glaurung was older = wiser and smarter. ... *


and stronger and greater!


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## Inderjit S

> The quote when Ancalagon was thrown down says he broke the towers of Thangordrim, not the mountains, so his size needs to be curtailed a bit.



Er....NO he threw down the mountains. 



> But Earendil came in the sky and he overthrew Ancalagon, the black Dragon, and in his fall Thangordrim, was broken


 HoMe 5; The Lost Road

I hesitate to use Early Quenta material, but the 'War of Wrath' was never revised by Tolkien and there is no evidence of a revision in ToY (Home 11), so this is what Chris. Tolkien based the Published Silmarillion upon. Note, these are the Annals of Beleriand, an earlier form of the Grey Annals, not the actual prose form of the Silmarillion. Also look at the Published Silmarillion index:



> Thangorodrim;....broken down in the great battle at the end of the First Age.



And as we can see from the quote in the Silmarillion:



> and cast him from the sky; and he fell upon the towers of Thangordrim, and they were broken in his ruin...



So it seems Ancalagon’s fall broke Thangordrim since their destruction is not mentioned elsewhere and 'towers' was simply a poetic reference ot the mountains themselves.



> And Luthien in her spell of growth (in the lays of Beleriand) uses Glaurung’s name, as being the biggest dragon.



You are using a separate Legendarium in which the Quenta Silmarillion hadn't even begun. All that had been begun was the Narn and the Lay of Leithian, and the Lost Tales legendarium, of which the two were based upon. Ancalagon hadn't even been conceived by Tolkien yet, never mind Melkor.


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## Celebithil

*Glaurung*

I think Glaurung would most likely win especially if Glaurung had survived to the time of Ancalagon birth/release.


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## BlackCaptain

We obviously have a very good topic here...

This is almost like comparing Hulk Hogan to Brock Lesnar if anyone knows anything about wrestling. Well Brock Lesnar has had more and better equipment and state of the art training at his fingertips and is the greatest wrestler in the buisness. He is the ultimate wrestler. Hogan however is an older and more expierienced wrestler. A true veteran who has lots of accomplishments under his belt, while Lesnar has few.

Ancalagon has gone under alot of new expireaments and has been perfected, while Glaurung has so many more accomplishments and is a great Dragon, though he would be outskilled by Ancalagon in a duel.

It's hard to put it into words, but Glaurung is just so accomplished as a Dragon, while Ancalagon really never had a chance to prove anything


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## Lamaendír

Why are there so many people saying Glaurung was bigger? His entire body was hardly larger than a deer's leap (he had to jump to get over Cabed-en-Aras). He was obviously Morgoths first attempt at creating a dragon, so he wouldn't be perfect because he's basically a prototype. 
Now Ancalagon on the other hand was the product of Morgoth experimenting and breeding better dragons, and Ancalagon was the absolute best Morgoth could create. He was large enough to crumble Thangorodrim, which was at that time the highest peak in middle earth. Ancalagon would have been at least 15x Glaurungs size, possibly more than 20x.
Glaurung was the first, but definitely not the greatest. That title goes to Ancalagon.


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## Azrubêl

Lamaendír said:


> Why are there so many people saying Glaurung was bigger? His entire body was hardly larger than a deer's leap (he had to jump to get over Cabed-en-Aras). He was obviously Morgoths first attempt at creating a dragon, so he wouldn't be perfect because he's basically a prototype.
> Now Ancalagon on the other hand was the product of Morgoth experimenting and breeding better dragons, and Ancalagon was the absolute best Morgoth could create. He was large enough to crumble Thangorodrim, which was at that time the highest peak in middle earth. Ancalagon would have been at least 15x Glaurungs size, possibly more than 20x.
> Glaurung was the first, but definitely not the greatest. That title goes to Ancalagon.



Welcome to the forums, dragon-lord.


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## Palantir

Melko Belcha said:


> I say Glaurung, look at all the destruction he caused and nobody was able to defeat him for a long time. Ancalagon was killed in the first battle he showed up in.





Ithrynluin said:


> The "first battle" Ancalagon participated in, was also the greatest battle there ever was - they were up against the host of the Valar for crying out loud. Plus it was Ancalagon & co. that drove back the forces of the Valar, until Eärendil showed up and slew him. Ancalagon's fall caused the mountains of Thangorodrim to crumble to bits.



xD ... So True..

Let's examine some evidence..

Glaurung:
-Ravaged ard-galen, driven back by Fingon (elves)

-Dagor Bragollach:
Was teamed with not only an entire army
He also had an enormous army of orcs, and all the Balrogs
And by the way, Morgoth unleashed the fires from the Iron mountains...

-Nirnaeth Arnoediad:
Had a brood of lesser dragons and undoubtedly an enormous host of orcs

-Sack of Nargothrond:
Faced Men and Elves, with another host of orcs

-Killed by a man (Turin) on the ground

-Had dragon enchanting spells/Dragon eye/evil intelligence

Ancalagon:
-"was the largest dragon to have ever existed in Middle-earth."

-Ancalagon and his armada of winged fire-drakes by themselves
drove back the Host of the Valar during the War of Wrath at the end of the First Age.. Thats the Entire host of the armies of Valinor, Valar, Maiar, all arrayed in battle....

_-"and so sudden and ruinous was the
onset of that dreadful fleet that the host of the Valar was
driven back, for the coming of the dragons was with great
thunder, and lightning, and a tempest of fire"_

-_"But Eärendil came, shining with white flame, and about
Vingilot were gathered all the great birds of heaven and
Thorondor was their captain, and there was battle in the air
all the day and through a dark night of doubt"_

So Earendil, (An ascended man) who travelled upon the vessel Vingilot in the sky (Hallowed by Valar), with ALL the great birds of heaven- including Thorondor- the Greatest Eagle of all time? It took these guys all day and through a dark night of doubt to kill the uruloki fleet..

-Then when he died, he literally smote Thangorodrim beneath him. He literally broke the 3 peaks of the largest mountains in Middle Earth.
_
-"the mightiest of the dragon-host, and cast him from the sky;
and he fell upon the towers of Thangorodrim, and they were
broken in his ruin"

-"nor was there ever any dragon, not even Ancalagon the Black, who could have harmed the One Ring"_
Of all the dragons Gandalf chose to reference.. he chooses Ancalagon.

The conclusion is rather obvious... Ancalagon the black was the greatest of the winged dragons. Ancalagon smote Thangorodrim in his wake. It took an army of enchanted cisrcumstances and the greatest flock of Eagles Arda has ever seen to kill him. Ancalagon not only would have dwarfed Glaurung in stature, but would have made quick work of him on the battlefield.

Ancalagon wins. EZ.


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