# "Concerning . . . The Hoard"



## Elthir (Aug 13, 2022)

At another website, someone called *Arvegil145 *has posted:

__________

That is, as of last month from an auction - it was sold for c. 150,000$ from what I've heard. The auction website has actually posted images of the manuscripts, and a brave soul has already attempted to tackle the mess that is Tolkien's handwriting!

I will link both the auction website and the transcript here, and oh boy does it not disappoint!

The manuscript images: https://historical.ha.com/itm/books/...Popular-112917

The transcript: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...ISmd8laFM/edit

__________

Wow!


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## m4r35n357 (Aug 14, 2022)

First impressions:

A reaffirmation in 1964 of the 1937 version of the "fall of Doriath", no need to lure Thingol outside the girdle, or re-write the story completely 

Even better:


> Thus was prepared the overthrow of the Dark Lord. A great army came from the West to
> Middle-earth, and the Sons of the Valar aided by the remnants of the Elves and the
> Dúnedain (or Men of Elf-alliance) overcame the Dark Lord in that war called the “Last
> Battle” [of the First Age], but was actually a long war, scantily chronicled owing to the
> ...



Dynamite - confirmation that the left-over elves *did* in fact take part in the WoW, despite Christopher's editing of the final chapter to remove the summons.

Possibly even more dynamite - reaffirmation of the Ambarkanta (and possibly even Ainulindale B, still digesting that!).

Entirely consistent with my personal view that Tolkien was not really satisfied with his attempt to re-write the Silmarillion after LoTR.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 14, 2022)

Elthir said:


> At another website, someone called *Arvegil145 *has posted:
> 
> __________
> 
> ...


Wow! That is a lot of money-- yet I bet it is worth it! Hope they share it with the world!


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## Elthir (Aug 21, 2022)

m4r35n357 said:


> First impressions: A reaffirmation in 1964 of the 1937 version of the "fall of Doriath", no need to lure Thingol outside the girdle, or re-write the story completely



Or, one could describe things another way; like for example: _Concerning The Hoard_ is certainly not
a return to the 1937 Fall of Doriath, given the differences (plural) between the 1964 version and the older description – differences that include how the Girdle of Melian is breached!

 I'm using "1937 version" as shorthand here, as I'm guessing you are as well



m4r35n357 said:


> Even better: Dynamite - confirmation that the left-over elves *did* in fact take part in the WoW, despite Christopher's editing of the final chapter to remove the summons.



*Edit: this section is me not being serious.*

Considering Tolkien’s “Sons of the Valar” here, JRRT has obviously gone back to the Valar having
sons. And clearly he's dropped the Vanyar -- but again, now that we have the sons of the Valar
on board, do we really even need the Teleri to do the shipping?

I mean, sometimes the shipping costs more than the item! 

Tolkien retains the *"remnants *of the Elves” however -- clearly referring to the Noldor of Aman here, syncing up with the description from _Quenta Silmarillion_ (after Finarfin forsook the March to Middle-earth): “There they received the Pardon of the Valar, and Finarfin was set to rule the *remnant* of the Noldor in the Blessed Realm.”

In any case, this is interesting stuff for the 1960s. But Tolkien can be surprising!

cough

*End of joke section.*


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## Elthir (Aug 21, 2022)

By the way, half of my last post is me not being serious . . . and I can't remember what the other half is.

probably me being annoying

🐾


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## m4r35n357 (Aug 23, 2022)

Elthir said:


> Tolkien retains the *"remnants *of the Elves” however -- clearly referring to the Noldor of Aman here, syncing up with the description from _Quenta Silmarillion_ (after Finarfin forsook the March to Middle-earth): “There they received the Pardon of the Valar, and Finarfin was set to rule the *remnant* of the Noldor in the Blessed Realm.”


To make that work you would have to interpret "the remnants of the Elves and the Dúnedain (or Men of Elf-alliance)" as referring to two geographically(!) separate groups (plus Elrond). I cannot do this; they are clearly one group!

BTW I concede it is clearly Ainulindale C not B since the Valar created gold & silver and "matter".

As for the disappearing girdle, I accept that "Melian dumped him" is different from "treacherous Elves", but I don't see the two as contradictory (I would say inevitable); the dragon gold that Hurin brought allowed Morgoth's influence inside Doriath, so to me both are highly likely. It is a very long way from "OMG this doesn't work; we must lure Thingol outside the girdle" (notes to Tale of Years).


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## Elthir (Aug 23, 2022)

m4r35n357 said:


> To make that work you would have to interpret "the remnants of the Elves and the Dúnedain (or Men of Elf-alliance)" as referring to two geographically(!) separate groups (plus Elrond). I cannot do this; they are clearly one group!



*Apologies.* Just in case it wasn't clear by my wording, I added (post 5)_ "By the way, half of my last post is me not being serious . . . and I can't remember what the other half is" _But I guess it wasn't clear enough that I meant this half of my post!

In short, none of that part was serious.

I do think there's an argument for the remnants of Beleriand taking part in this war. In an earlier chat about this I was testing the argument, the reason being is that it seems odd to me that Christopher Tolkien should have taken out the 1937 _Quenta Silmarillion_ summons, and (same text) the Ulmo section [_" . . . and so were fulfilled in part the words of Ulmo, for by Earendil son of Tuor help was brought unto the Elves, and by the swords of Men they were strengthened on the fields of war."_]

Granted, Christopher Tolkien may have been lacking more than one text here, but why edit QS itself?

I'm still wondering.



m4r35n357 said:


> As for the disappearing girdle, I accept that "Melian dumped him" is different from "treacherous Elves", but I don't see the two as contradictory (I would say inevitable); the dragon gold that Hurin brought allowed Morgoth's influence inside Doriath, so to me both are highly likely. It is a very long way from "OMG this doesn't work; we must lure Thingol outside the girdle" (notes to Tale of Years).



Not exactly sure what you mean by the contradictory statement, but given that in _Concerning The Hoard_ Tolkien notes two reason for why the Girdle fails (or could fail), so far anyway, I see no great reason to think the treacherous Elves are still in play at this later date -- *not that you said it was in play.*

And here I'm going to get a bit pedantic but, JRRT's note to _The Tale of Years_, is not _"OMG this doesn't work; we must lure Thingol outside the girdle" (notes to Tale of Years)"_-- but *I'm not referring to your wording here*, *as obviously you don't think that's the exact wording* . . .

. . . but I am pedantically saying that the only note to _The Tale of Years_, is "cannot", a single word with an X, and we don't know when these were written.

So far I've asked two people (who seemingly love to delve into dating texts) to try and date the "Turins saga" notes referred to in _The Tale of Years_. I asked 'cause the idea in which Thingol is lured outside the girdle is referred to in the section dealing with _The Tale of Years_, but even Christopher Tolkien does not date this note -- other than dating it with other Turin related notes.

And I'm wondering if there's any way we can date them, at least in part (no response yet from either person). Another reason I asked -- I've not yet attempted to look at this matter more closely . . .

. . . which is a way to admit I'm being lazy!


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## m4r35n357 (Aug 24, 2022)

NP. I am doing this _mostly_ from memory ATM.

The main reason I am _not_ opposed to the "treacherous Elves" is that the Prophesy of the North _specifically_ mentions it. I am speculating here that some Feanorian (kinslayer) refugees in Doriath might have arranged to "facilitate" the invasion by the Dwarves so that the Silmaril could be recovered by their folk. This fits in with the idea that Celegorm & Curufin waylaid the Dwarves, rather Beren (who I struggle to think of as a fighter by that stage) & the Ents (a mere speculation in a letter). This change was one of the first changes to the TOY and persisted through to typescript D.

But it is not essential. Melian is gone, and the combined power of Morgoth's curse on Hurin and the dragon gold is maybe too much to oppose indefinitely?


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## Elthir (Aug 24, 2022)

Yes, the prophecy specifically mentions treason and the fear of treason -- not specifically as a means of getting into Doriath of course -- in case anyone is wondering, as not everyone here has necessarily read _The Silmarillion_.

And I'm not sure about characterizing the Ents as mere speculation, given Tolkien's wording in the letter: "they will have to come in" [meaning come into the older stories of Middle-earth] "But I can foresee one action that they took . . ." and next: "It seems clear that Beren, who had no army, received the aid of the Ents -- and that would not make for love between Ents and Dwarves."

Anyway, with Celegorm and Curufin you're employing _The Tale of Years_ instead of _Concerning The Hoard_, as "CTH" returns to Beren: "Fugitives from Doriath brought news to Beren in Ossiriand, especially of the rape of the Silmaril. He gathered a force and waylaid the Dwarves on their return march, at a ford across one of “Seven Rivers of Ossir”

Okay. You're speculating here, as you say. *No problem of course*. It's just that your initial reaction (reaffirmation sentence) led me to believe that you'd prefer "1937" ideas where possible -- thus Beren and the Green Elves at the river.

But that's my _assumption_ I guess!

See what happens when I assume.


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## Alcuin (Aug 24, 2022)

There should be no Fëanorians in Doriath at that time. Thingol had expressly forbidden the entry of the Sons of Fëanor because of the Rape of Alqualondë. This would presumably include all of their followers and adherents. After Dior Eluchíl took up his reign in Menegroth, the surviving sons of Fëanor attacked Doriath in search of the Silmaril.


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## m4r35n357 (Aug 24, 2022)

Elthir said:


> And I'm not sure about characterizing the Ents as mere speculation, given Tolkien's wording in the letter: "they will have to come in" [meaning come into the older stories of Middle-earth] "But I can foresee one action that they took . . ." and next: "It seems clear that Beren, who had no army, received the aid of the Ents -- and that would not make for love between Ents and Dwarves."


The problem that I have with the Ents here is that they are otherwise un-warlike (don't seem to blame the Valar for sinking the southern forests, or resist the Numenoreans as they deforest Minhiriath) until LotR. They seemed a bit "bolted on" after reading the Silmarillion the first couple of times. That is just my opinion.


Elthir said:


> Anyway, with Celegorm and Curufin you're employing _The Tale of Years_ instead of _Concerning The Hoard_, as "CTH" returns to Beren: "Fugitives from Doriath brought news to Beren in Ossiriand, especially of the rape of the Silmaril. He gathered a force and waylaid the Dwarves on their return march, at a ford across one of “Seven Rivers of Ossir”
> 
> Okay. You're speculating here, as you say. *No problem of course*. It's just that your initial reaction (reaffirmation sentence) led me to believe that you'd prefer "1937" ideas where possible -- thus Beren and the Green Elves at the river.


I prefer the 1937 version as a _base for updating_, rather than the later "uneven" post-LotR rewrites. So the Celegorm & Curufin change would be OK with me because it is not causing huge problems elsewhere Yes, returning to the Hoard Beren seems conclusive in terms of his plans at the time (whatever that was!), but with _no Ents_? (shrug)


Elthir said:


> But that's my _assumption_ I guess!
> See what happens when I assume.


A discussion 



Alcuin said:


> There should be no Fëanorians in Doriath at that time. Thingol had expressly forbidden the entry of the Sons of Fëanor because of the Rape of Alqualondë. This would presumably include all of their followers and adherents. After Dior Eluchíl took up his reign in Menegroth, the surviving sons of Fëanor attacked Doriath in search of the Silmaril.


True. Too many alternatives to think about!


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## Elthir (Aug 24, 2022)

m4r35n357 said:


> ( . . . ) Yes, returning to the Hoard Beren seems conclusive in terms of his plans at the time (whatever that was!), but with _no Ents_? (shrug)



No Ents mentioned, indeed 

But maybe they still aided the force that Beren is said to have gathered in _Concerning The Hoard_
(although Beren had "no army" in the September 1963 letter).

The typed letter to Mrs. Elgar here is dated March 5th, 1964. According to Tolkien [in the typed section] he wrote "the screed" -- the handwritten part we are looking at here -- in answer to a letter of December 17th (1963 I assume).

We're fairly close here to the Ent letter, whatever that may mean . . . or not mean.



m4r35n357 said:


> A discussion



Gasp!


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## ZehnWaters (Aug 24, 2022)

Elthir said:


> Considering Tolkien’s “Sons of the Valar” here, JRRT has obviously gone back to the Valar having sons.






Elthir said:


> That is, as of last month from an auction - it was sold for c. 150,000$ from what I've heard. The auction website has actually posted images of the manuscripts, and a brave soul has already attempted to tackle the mess that is Tolkien's handwriting!
> 
> I will link both the auction website and the transcript here, and oh boy does it not disappoint!
> 
> ...



*sigh* am I going to have to read this in my spare time or does someone have a summary? I know it's only seven pages but school's back in and I'm more busy.


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## ZehnWaters (Aug 24, 2022)

m4r35n357 said:


> As for the disappearing girdle, I accept that "Melian dumped him" is different from "treacherous Elves"



Why would Melian leave prior to Thingol's death?


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## m4r35n357 (Aug 24, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> Why would Melian leave prior to Thingol's death?





> "But either this fence had been robbed of its power by the evil within, or Melian had removed it in grief and horror at the deed that had been done."



The text is very short and well worth reading


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## Elthir (Aug 24, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> View attachment 15152



*Elthir* (me) did say -- "Considering Tolkien’s “Sons of the Valar” here, JRRT has obviously gone back to the Valar having sons." -- but said in jest.

I realize you're having fun here too, but again, in case it's not clear.

That said, even (as has been argued already) if we have but "poetic phrasing" here, yet it could have given Mrs. Elgar the idea of the Valar actually having sons . . .

. . . unless she had been informed otherwise -- I can't recall at the moment.

Anyway.


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## ZehnWaters (Aug 24, 2022)

m4r35n357 said:


> The text is very short and well worth reading


Very well.
Thoughts:
It seems...odd that an entire hoard of objects should be cursed FOREVER. Though I suppose it lines up with the idea that gold was more influenced by Morgoth's essence. Seems that Dragons can draw it out by brooding upon it (perhaps enhancing it with their own "curse"). It also makes that weird "dragon sickness" in The Hobbit films...legitimate? Especially considering the giant gold mirror/floor they added. Though...that kinda makes Erebor uninhabitable? Could such a curse be washed away? Knowing this would help in my Silmarillion Alternate Universe story.

So Melian's Girdle failed because Thingol was...dishonest? Possessed by a Dragon-Horde? Where was she when all of that was happening? Why didn't she notice the curse or mediate the renegotiation?

I don't think this letter indicates that the Vanyar and Teleri didn't participate in that final battle of the First Age. Only that they were led by the "Sons of the Valar" *shudders*.

We're back to Morgoth being thrust from the world and not executed as Michael Martinez seems to always insist.

"But Fëanor [[here a wiggly line strikes through the words “was a”]]"
Fëanor certainly "was a" something. Should have left it alone.


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## Elthir (Aug 24, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> I don't think this letter indicates that the Vanyar and Teleri didn't participate in that final battle of the First Age. Only that they were led by the "Sons of the Valar" *shudders*.



Again, just joking there 

I mean, since I said this, I _assume_ this is in reference to me? Although look at what happened last time I assumed something!

By the way, I just edited the "joking" section of post 4, so as to make this clear in the post itself.


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## ZehnWaters (Aug 24, 2022)

Elthir said:


> Again, just joking there
> 
> I mean, since I said this, I _assume_ this is in reference to me? Although look at what happened last time I assumed something!
> 
> By the way, I just edited the "joking" section of post 4, so as to make this clear in the post itself.


Text is often hard to read so sorry if I misread that!


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## Elthir (Aug 24, 2022)

My fault* ZehnWaters*! No worries!


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