# The importance of the Mouth of Sauron



## Húrin Thalion (Sep 23, 2003)

*The Motuh of Saruon*

Quite an interesting fellow, been discussed a lot already but here is my theory regarding his status in Sauron's service, if anyone here is visiting the Barrowdowns you might have already seen it, but isn't recycling wonderful?

Anyway, what do we know more of this chap, him being quite a nasty fellow excepted? He was still a man, and he was still living in a very high degree. His status on Mordor then? He rose quickly die to his sourcery and went to Sauron because he was enamoured by the evil knowledge. He is said to have known much of Sauron's mind, growing ever higher in his favour due to hsi cunning. Not to mention that he was crueler than any orc, this makes him seem like the second man in Mordor, especially because he ahs got his free will left. He was an emissary, and in medieval times, those were high born nobles, a very important position, not entrusted to anybody, I would think taht he was considered above the Nazgûl who were simply doing the dirty work for their Master, looking for Rings and commanding armies. Just like Denethor said, he was a spear in Sauron's hand. He must have had some military importance in the Black tower since he is said to be 'lieutenant of Barad dûr', probably he was the second in command. To make a clarification, he was responsible for the war at a strategic level while the Nazgûl ran the lower operational and tactical levels. Look at him as a Chief of Staff and close advisor to the Dark lord. 
One thing that speaks for this theory is that the Lord of Angmar, A.K.A. Chief of the Nazgûls was his ablest military commander, which I assume means field commander, not staff officer.

What speaks for the Nazgul is a few things, chiefly uttered by their opponents. Pippin syas at the battle of the Morannon: If I just could get a blow at that ugly lieutenant I would almost keep pace with Merry's achievement." (or something to that effect) Notice the almost, speaking for their rank. Moreover, Gandalf makes some hints about their status, but all this is very vague. 

I have here avoided one quite relevant question, who was he before Mordor? My guess would be, as said that eh was a Numenorean that voluntarily crossed over, that must have amde it easier for him to gain Sauron's favour, anyone else habe a theory? Something that interests me is what other roles he might have played? For example, the Messenger that came to Dain seemed pretty nasty, could it possibly be the Mouth of Sauron? Any thoughts?

Måns


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## Celebthôl (Sep 23, 2003)

Good theory, though wasnt the messenger to Daín one of the Nine? I think he was the second in command of Mordor, for the reasons you said. . .


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## Athelas (Sep 23, 2003)

I so longed to hear Gilbert Godfried voice this role...


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 23, 2003)

The fact that 'he grew ever higher in his lords favour' seems to be saying that ever since he entered the service of Barad-dur his skill and cunning allowed him to climb the 'social ladder' of the Dark Tower and finally reach the worthy and highly esteemed position of the 'Mouth of Sauron'. 

My vote for Sauron's second in command would still go to the Lord of the Nazgul though. While the Mouth of Sauron is probably highly resourceful and knowledgable, he still has a will of his own, whereas the chief of the Nazgul is completely subservient to Sauron's will, to the extent that he would bring him the ring, had he found it. I'm pretty sure the Mouth would have tried to keep it for himself, is something like that were to have happened. The Nazgul Lord is also extremely powerful, by natural stature alone, as well as through enhancement in Sauron's service all those long years.


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## YayGollum (Sep 23, 2003)

Ack! I have an achingly cool analogy, but it has to do with Star Wars type things. oh well. *hangs head in shame* Let me see here. I didn't get to see much about the Mouth of Sauron, but I always liked him. Very fun lines to read. Very charismatic and interesting dude. Did the story ever say what happened to him? I hope not, because I'm planning on writing a story with him in it. oh well. For some reason, I thought that this guy wasn't your average human in terms of the lifespan. Probably just because he was called a Numenorean and Numenor wasn't around anymore. Maybe it just meant that he was descended from the types that lived there. oh well.


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## HLGStrider (Sep 23, 2003)

I always assumed the messenger to Dain was a Nazgul, but that is only due to the fact that he sounded so creepy and the hissssssssing he did when he was turned down. Is there anything to suggest I'm wrong? The dwarves didn't see the rider's face , did they? He came in the darkness and it never mentions what he looks like. I always imagined him hooded and cloaked. 

It also seemed to be the Nazgul's job to find the ring, in the Shire for certain.


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## Beleg (Sep 24, 2003)

Yes the mouth of Sauron is ambitious as is shown by his ambition of entering Isengard. And don't forget Gothmog who also seem like a prominent lieutent of Sauron's forces to me. I believe the Mouth of Sauron to be a man of cunning, having a devious mind but not much powress in battles. I also believe the chief of the Nazgul to be Sauron's most trusted servant. He is also his greatest weapon, all the Nazguls are his greatest weapons since he doesn't possess any other servant of their power and potent. 
However, I also believe that Sauron would need some political assistant to control affairs in the east and to govern and officiate the policies of the eastern men. To me the Mouth of Sauron fits that role. Being cunning and devious and skillful in words, he would be an ideal political tenant to control and govern as a regent of Sauron the eastern countries. I dont take the phrase 'Lieutant of Barad Dur' in the literary sense, that he abode in Barad Dur, I think it means that he held an important position in Sauron's regime. Sauron had other lieutants also, like I belief Gothmog to be the head of a legion of Orcs and Men of Sauron's regime, being related to the military side of the regime. While the Mouth of Sauron fits on the political side. The Nazgul's however were unique, they were special weapons under the control of noone but their Lord and offcourse Sauron. 
I don't think he was the messenger, I believe that task was given
to someone of lesser rank but I still think he was a trusted servant of his master, although a bit ambitious.
I take the Regime of Sauron to be constituted of various wings with further subdivisons among the wings. The Mouth of the Sauron was a strategician and was probably the head of the political wing and thus also Sauron's biggest envoy. Gothmog on the other hand belonged to the military wing and it is probable that he shared the command with others lieutants like him all governing a divison or legion.


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## Aulë (Sep 24, 2003)

> _The Black Gate Opens_
> The Lieutenant of the Tower of Barad-dûr he was, and his name is remembered in no tale; for he himself had forgotten it, and he said: 'I am the Mouth of Sauron.' But it is told that he was a renegade, who came of the race of those that are named the Black Númenóreans; for they established their dwellings in Middle-earth during the years of Sauron's domination, and they worshipped him, being enamoured of evil knowledge. *And he entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again*, and because of his cunning he grew ever higher in the Lord's favour; and he learned great sorcery, and knew much of the mind of Sauron; and he was more cruel than any orc.



So we can say that he entered Sauron's services in about the year 2951, making him _at least_ 80 years old at the time when he spoke with the Captains of the West. He would have to have come from a very pure lineage, as I got the feeling that he wasn't considered 'old' at the time.

He was going to be given Orthanc had Sauron been successful, and because of that I believe he was ranked about the Nazgúl. Where would you put your highest ranking minion? In Minas Morgul, which would have been extremely quiet had Sauron overrun the West; or Isengard, which would be a key stronghold in the middle of Sauron's newly acquired land?
(Or could we assume that Sauron would have sent the Witch King back up to Angmar?)


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Aulë _
> *(Or could we assume that Sauron would have sent the Witch King back up to Angmar?) *



Well, I really _really_ doubt the Nazgul would have lingered in Minas Morgul, had Sauron regained the Ring and waged war on the West. The Wraiths would IMO hold extremely important positions all around Middle Earth, at least as important as the Mouth's job.


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## Mr. Underhill (Sep 24, 2003)

And yet we should remember, when this fearsome lad was confronted by Gandalf, he backed off and showed fear ... The Lord of the Nazgul showed no fear when confronted by Gandalf inside the broken Great Gate of Minas Tirith. I would say the Witch-King was second to Sauron.


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## Khôr’nagan (Sep 24, 2003)

Well, that's just because the Nazgul are immune to normal weapons, and they are even a match for a Maia (weak ones). They are not normal, not human, not a mortal, while the Mouth of Sauron was. Chances are Gandalf has greater power over Mortals than Nazgul.


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## Mr. Underhill (Sep 25, 2003)

The Nazgul did not appear to be immune to normal weapons. Did not Aragorn hold them at bay at Weathertop with no more than a flame and a sword? Was not the Witch-King himself done in by a sword from the West? The Nazgul, were at least, uncomfortable dealing with Elves, who brandished "normal" weapons. They were not "indestructible". As far as them being a match for a Maia, had it come down to it, at the Gates Of Minas Tirith Gandalf would have surely disposed of the Witch-King himself. The Mouth of Sauron was probably a puppet used by Sauron until he could spare the Witch-King for lesser such duties.


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## Éomond (Sep 25, 2003)

I thought that I read somewhere that the Mouth of Sauron was a Black/Dark Numenorean? Didn't it say that somewhere? Hmm, I always thought him to be the same age as Aragorn.....


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## Inderjit S (Sep 25, 2003)

> But it was told he was a renegade, who came of the race who are called the Black Numenoreans


 _The Black gate Opens_ 



> In Minas Morgul, which would have been extremely quiet had Sauron overrun the West; or Isengard, which would be a key stronghold in the middle of Sauron's newly acquired land





> All lands east of Anduin shall be Sauron’s for ever, solely. West of the Anduin as far as the Misty Mountains and the Gap of Rohan shall be tributary to Mordor, and men there shall bear no weapons, but shall have leave to govern their own affairs. But they shall help to rebuild Isengard which they have wantonly destroyed, and that shall be Sauron’s, and there his lieutenant shall dwell: not Saruman, but one more worthy of trust
> *Looking in the Messenger’s eyes they read his thought. He was to be that lieutenant, and gather all that remained of the West under his sway; he would be their tyrant and they his slaves*


 _The Black gate Opens_ 

So he would have held sway over the remains of Rohan, Gondor etc. He would have been Lord of virtually all the 'West' or rather what used to be the best. He was high in Sauron's favor, and so would have had a rank no less prestigious the the Nazgul. One must of course question whether the Mouth of Sauron and the Nazgul had the same goals. The mouth was a man and so he would have a inherent desire for dominion, more so, maybe then the de-humanized Nazgul.



> (Or could we assume that Sauron would have sent the Witch King back up to Angmar?)



And the point of this would be what exactly? Angmar would have held little sentimental value to the W-K if that is what you mean. . (Unless her comes to a certain spot and say 'Ahh.. here's where I slew that filhty Dunedain lord, oh that does bring back the memories. *hearty chuckle*)The whole point of the W-K being sent to Angmar was to encompass the ruin of the Northen Dunedain, who were divided and not as strong as Gondor. There was little left in Arnor to rule over or tyrnassie except for maybe The Shire. The Elves of Lindon and Rivendell would have fled by then.


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## Húrin Thalion (Sep 27, 2003)

Hmmm all interesting theories, and I must agree with you Inder that his political role must have been wuite large. But, to me he seems like the planner, the mind behind the war, somewaht like Sir Arthur Harris deputy Saundby.Harris, the chief of the RAF bomber command often looked at a map and set his finger at a city, grumped: "OK, 800 Lancasters to Köln tonight". Saundby was the man who transformed these "decisions" into something practical, flying routes and so on. I would think that the Mouth of Sauron had that kind of position, he was the one who made sure the rafts were built, the pontoon bridge was ready, that a force was sent to Cair Andros, he coordinated the operation. While the top Naxgul led the assault aginst the Rammas and the city with relative freedom, all this was planned by MoS, who sent forward siege equipment, supplies and so on. A perfect example of the Nazgul's authority was the placing of men on the road between Rohan and Gondor, it was nothing in which the high command was inviolved, it was sound military logic and thus the decision could be let over to him. 

I take Lieutenant of Barad Dur literary, in the meaning that he was probably in charge of the guard there, the chief of the royal guard was always a very glorious position with much prestige and little work involved. In practice, yes as Sauron's chief advisor and military planner he would have been in the back tower constantly. Sauron probably wanted to keep track fo his subordinates, that is why he found it good to send the Nazgûl on missions, in difference from the MoS they had no personal ambitions, were bound to Sauron's will and could always be trusted. I seriously doubt if MoS would have got the position he longed for in Isengard, he wanted it too much.

Måns


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## Aulë (Sep 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Inderjit S _
> *And the point of this would be what exactly? Angmar would have held little sentimental value to the W-K if that is what you mean. . (Unless her comes to a certain spot and say 'Ahh.. here's where I slew that filhty Dunedain lord, oh that does bring back the memories. *hearty chuckle*)The whole point of the W-K being sent to Angmar was to encompass the ruin of the Northen Dunedain, who were divided and not as strong as Gondor. There was little left in Arnor to rule over or tyrnassie except for maybe The Shire. The Elves of Lindon and Rivendell would have fled by then. *



But what about Carn Dûm?
We never heard about it being destroyed by Glorfindel or Eärnur.


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## Inderjit S (Sep 27, 2003)

> But what about Carn Dûm?



What about it? The people of Angmar were destroyed by either the Eothed on the East Side or the West Side in the Battle of Fornost. I'm sure the Orks of the Misty Mountains would much rather be free then under anothers tutelage.


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## Aulë (Sep 27, 2003)

But surely Sauron would have feared any action from the Valar.
He would have remembered how his master was defeated, and a strongpoint near the western shores of ME would have provided an ideal defence. Probably futile against the Valar, but a strong position none the less.
Or did the Valar vow never to return to ME after the War of Wrath?  I'm sure you know, Inder....


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## Inderjit S (Sep 27, 2003)

*Sauron's Thoughts on Valar/Istari*

What did Sauron think of the Vala, well:



> Sauron could not, of course, be a 'sincere' atheist. Though one of the minor spirits created before the world, he knew Eru, according to his measure. He probably deluded himself with the notion that the Valar (including Melkor) having failed, Eru had simply abandoned Ea, or at any rate Arda, and would not concern himself with it any more. It would appear that he interpreted the 'change of the world' at the Downfall of Numenor, when Aman was removed from the physical world, in this sense: Valar (and Elves) were removed from effective control, and Men under God's curse and wrath. If he thought about the Istari, especially Saruman and Gandalf, he imagined them as emissaries from the Valar, seeking to establish their lost power again and 'colonize' Middle-earth, as a mere effort of defeated imperialists (without knowledge or sanction of Eru). His cynicism, which (sincerely) regarded the motives of Manwe as precisely the same as his own, seemed fully justified in Saruman.


 _Myths Transformed; HoME 10_ 

The Valar understood that the T.A was the time of Men. They also understood that they couldn''t simply invade M-E again to get Men out or trouble. Hence the sending of the Istari. 



> *The last intervention with physical force by the Valar,* ending in the breaking of Thangorodrim, may then be viewed as not in fact reluctant or even unduly delayed, but timed with precision


 _Myths Transformed; HoME 10_ 

Sauron was a or the problem, rather, that MAN had to deal with, in the end. 



> It is very reasonable to suppose that Manwe knew that before long (as he saw 'time') the Dominion of Men must begin, and the making of history would then be committed to them: for their struggle with Evil special arrangements had been made! Manwe knew of Sauron, of course. He had commanded Sauron to come before him for judgement, but had left room for repentance and ultimate rehabilitation. Sauron had refused and had fled into hiding. Sauron, however, was a problem that Men had to deal with finally: the first of the many concentrations of Evil into definite power-points that they would have to combat, as it was also the last of those in 'mythological' personalized
> (but non-human) form.


 _Myths Transformed; HoME 10_ 


And *if * they had failed and Sauron got the ring back?
Well Gandalf the emmisary of the Vala says to Denethor;



> But all worthy things that are in peril as the world now stands, those are my care. And for my part, I shall not wholly fail of my task, though Gondor should persish, if anything passes through this night that can still grow fair or can bear fruit and flower again in days to come. For I am also a a Steward. Did you not know?


 _Minas Tirith_


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