# Are you Fëanorean?



## Ingwë (Oct 15, 2005)

We have many threads about Fëanor but I want to ask you are you Fëanorean or not. And why you are'/you aren't  That's all 
I'll tell you why I'm not later


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## Celebthôl (Oct 15, 2005)

No! ****! Damn! I was thinking debate!!! No, i hate the sod! may he burn in hell!!!


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## Grond (Oct 15, 2005)

No I am Fingolfinian because that twit Fenor was a worthless, back stabbing, ner' do well.

Cheers,

grond


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## Hammersmith (Oct 15, 2005)

I'm a Feanorian, because he was an incredible elf despite his shortcomings, and worthy of a greater end. Through him came great evil but also great good. He's so tragic.


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## YayGollum (Oct 16, 2005)

I wanted to vote with a negative, since I am a human, but I would much rather help out the Feanorian side.  Garn! *wishes that the Ingwe person's achingly specific guidelines made room for him to rant about other people's answers* oh well. I happen to be what some might call Feanorian since he was fun. Not just another boring as well as sickeningly perfect elf. The best elf of all time. A great orator. A misunderstood artist so misunderstood that even the other misunderstood artists misunderstand him. Also, I thought that his death scene was cool. Very Feanorian and unexpected.


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## Ponte (Oct 16, 2005)

I am a Fëanorian. 

He was the strongest and greatest elf no matter how many "evils" and bad things he made.

Fëanor did what he felt was right and fought for it untill the bitter end.

Fëanor was the überelf .


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## Thorondor_ (Oct 16, 2005)

He brought about too much evil with his pride. He definitely fell to the dark side of morality, no matter what other qualities he had or what deeds he accomplished; he doesn't sound much like a positive role-model, now does he...


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## Celebthôl (Oct 16, 2005)

Can a mod change my vote to "No" please?  

Fingolfin was by far the greatest Elf! No doubt in my mind.


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## YayGollum (Oct 16, 2005)

Garn! Hey, Ingwe person, yes, I understand that you kept your information seeking post very specific about what information you were seeking, but would you mind terribly if I started to explain to the non-Feanorian types how wrong they are? That Thorondor_ person is sort of asking me a question in his post, at least!


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## Aglarband (Oct 17, 2005)

Tolkein has the strangest Archetypes, they all are just so... real... None of his heros are perfect, except maybe Faramir


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## Ingwë (Oct 18, 2005)

Celebthôl said:


> Can a mod change my vote to "No" please?


No, Thôl, the mods cannot change yor vote but they can edit the poll. But the vote is public so we will see 4 users voted for but it will display 3. Do you understand? 
Thol, look at the attachments:
_First attachment:_
1. One voter - 1 vote
2. Zero voters - 3 votes
_Second attachment_ shows edit options 
Look at this thread, last poll option. Zero voters but it shows one  That should be my vote 




> Would you mind terribly if I started to explain to the non-Feanorian types how wrong they are?


No, I would not


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## baragund (Oct 18, 2005)

I'm no Feanorian. I'm too easy-going . I tend to go along with things rather than destroy everything I've ever known trying to get what I want.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Oct 18, 2005)

I am a Noldorin Elf, and I am Fingolfian, because I did not take the oath of Feanor, I did not leave Valinor out of anger, but out of wonder, wonder of what the rest of the world contained, and I also wished to be a part of the History of Middle Earth, and look what I found, a beautiful wife of the family of Gondor (Farawyn), so no im not Feanorean, but its a tie, somebody break it!


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## YayGollum (Oct 18, 2005)

I wish that I could, but oh well. Thank you muchly, Ingwe person. Got it. Stuff that looks good to be responding to:

The Grond person ---> Twit Fenor? Worthless? Back stabbing? Ner' do well? All craziness! Not a twit! Worth more than zero! No records of backs stabbed, although, they would have deserved it!  Ever did well, I write! 

The Thorondor_ person ---> How much evil is too much? Also, explain what evil you might be writing about? Pride is a good thing. Definitely fell to the dark side of some certain people's views on morality? Sure, I would agree on that, since there are so many different philosophies to consider. But still. He was muchly on the good side of mayhaps at least more than one other type of philosophy.  Also, actually, he is a great role model for all. Low self-esteem? Emulate Feanor!  

The baragund person ---> I understand that you might not have been writing this, but a fiery spirit is not a bad thing. Too easy-going can be a bad thing. Also, your bit about going along with unspecified somethings instead of that other craziness that you mentioned doesn't apply to Feanorianness (is that spelled right, or does it just make no sense? oh well). You are saying that it is good to be a sheep? Anyways, Feanor didn't destroy everything that he had ever known to go after what he wanted. He obtained victory while up against many annoying oddses. The poor dude! In the history of all history, Feanor was the dude who was the biggest fan of one's own dad. That's a lot of fathers as well as sons to contend with! Pursuing vengeance is oftimes seen as an especially heroic quest for heroic type characters, yes? Why must differences of opinion be tossed at the superly cool Feanor character?


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## Thorondor_ (Oct 18, 2005)

> How much evil is too much? Also, explain what evil you might be writing about?


Slaying of the elves? Leaving fellow soldiers behind, at the mercy of the fate? Blasphemous oath which brings about fall and corruption? Sounds evil enough to me... 


> Low self-esteem? Emulate Feanor!


Ok, I like that one ...


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## Grond (Oct 18, 2005)

YayGollum said:


> I wish that I could, but oh well. Thank you muchly, Ingwe person. Got it. Stuff that looks good to be responding to:
> 
> The Grond person ---> Twit Fenor? Worthless? Back stabbing? Ner' do well? All craziness! Not a twit! Worth more than zero! No records of backs stabbed, although, they would have deserved it!  Ever did well, I write! ...


1) Twit?
Actually, Feanor was a self-centered, egocentric jerk.
2) Worth more than zero
Actually worth less than zero... Turned his back on the Valar in their time of need. Refused to receive assistance. In deciding to challenge a Vala, his worth become < nil.
3) No records of a back stab.
ROFL! What do you call the abandoning of his kin? Remember, they had to cross Helcarxe because of the great Feanor.

In Louisiana, we would call Feanor a spoiled sport, titty-baby. 

Cheers,

grond


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## baragund (Oct 18, 2005)

Methinks Yay is mining this thread for material to use in the debate...


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## YayGollum (Oct 18, 2005)

To the Thorondor_ person ---> You didn't write how much evil was too much. What are your units of evil measurement? Please excuse me. Am merely bringing it up because you wrote that he brought about too much evil. Mayhaps, if I knew the system of measurement, I could agree with you or debate the point. oh well. Anyways, I can see why some of the examples of evil-seeming things might seem evil to some. 

Allow myself to explain the tragic character of Feanor ---> Slaying of some particular elves is evil? Not really. They were stupid for standing in the way of an especially as well as achingly famously fiery tempered personality. He showed a Herculean amount of restraint in the first place for asking them for their ships instead of just taking them. Do you people think that he was just a whiny as well as spoiled little boy? Well, even if you do, he wasn't. He had the legendary love for a dad that had to be avenged! Lots of creepily righteous fury driving him and some random elf says ---> "Nah. We enjoy uselessly piddling about our tiny island. Waste lots of time making your own boats, why don't you?" That was pretty stupid of him. Poor Feanor snapped.  

Leaving fellow soldiers behind? I would say that he was being nice to those people who didn't even consider themselves to be fellow soldiers. He knew that they didn't really want to come anyways. He took the most useful (loyal) elves with him and gave the others a chance to go back to paradise. Besides, the leaders of those other dudes didn't like him very much. Wouldn't have been as smooth of a victory for Feanor. Also, it isn't as if Feanor forced them to follow him. Maybe his stirring speech was just too good, though.  

Blasphemous oath? Was it really blasphemous? I am not a fan of the crazy types who toss that word around so casually. To Feanor, he was the equal (or most likely, superior) to anybody. Gods are people, too, you know.  Besides, anything that came from others deciding of their own free will to join in the oath isn't his fault. But then again, maybe his speech was too good again. 

Hm. I didn't really wait for you to allow me, did I? oh well. 

To the Grond person ---> Garn. Lots of that is just crazy opinion that I can't really argue with. Yes, to you, the superly cool Feanor character was probably a self-centered, egocentric jerk. Why not? Good for you. I would write that he was a self-centered (never a bad quality), egocentric (same) as well as achingly misunderstood artist. *sniff*  

Worth less that zero because you write that he should have cared about the unimportant inconveniences tossed at gods? Craziness. Why should he have cared about the unimportant inconveniences tossed at gods? Especially if they are unimportant. oh well. Worth less than zero because he refused to receive assistance? Why? Pride is great! Yay pride! Worth less than nil because he decided to challenge any random Valar type thing? Are all of the others that did that (including your hero) worth the same?   

Truly Rolling On Floor Laughing (or do that letters stand for elsewhat?)? I call abandoning of any random relatives that which I already mentioned in my bit to the Thorondor_ person. Look up there. Anyways, I was writing of achingly literal ---> Feanor physically stabbing anyone in the back. Please excuse me.  

Also, baragund person ---> I wasn't thinking of that when I first asked if I could discuss people's opinions. sorry about that. I just enjoy tossing much awareness at people about superly cool as well as more interesting than the insufferably popular characters types of characters. I happen to be achingly confident in my position in that little debate thing. But then, if I do come upon some achingly cool new idea in here, Yay! You people would know all about it, too, though.


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## Thorondor_ (Oct 19, 2005)

> I am not a fan of the crazy types who toss that word around so casually


Try "guessing" who is the first person who used the expression "blasmephous oath"... though I believe you already know the answer 


> You didn't write how much evil was too much


I think that those refferences were quite self-explanatory... and if you think that the slaying, stealing or blasphemy he has caused are not to be condemned... what can I argue against that? We have different views on morality.


> He knew that they didn't really want to come anyways


So, those "dudes" crossed Helcaraxe out of ...masochism?


> Besides, anything that came from others deciding of their own free will to join in the oath isn't his fault.


The lust for the Silmarils brought the ruin not only of those who took the oath, but of all the elven kingdoms..


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## YayGollum (Oct 19, 2005)

Please excuse me, Thorondor_ person, but I don't know who started using the blasphemous oath phrase. Did not intend to deflate your opinion of my memory too much.   Would it help your point that what he did was blasphemous if I knew? *hides*

As to the bit about different views on morality ---> Yes. *sigh* I can't find very many who decide to make sense enough to agree with me very often.  oh well. Did I not explain well enough how the evil things that you mentioned were not evil?  

I have no idea why the silly elves decided to follow Feanor instead of doing what they wanted to do in the first place (go back to brainless paradise). Do you know? I don't really care enough to wonder about why they did that. It wasn't a very smart decision, was it? Not Feanor's fault, though, so it doesn't really matter.

Also, I would say that that ---> "lust for silmaril things bringing ruin not only to those who took the oath, but to all the elven kingdoms" bit of yours could be true. Why not? But then, are you not merely writing of many choices made by many people that the Feanor character did not take over the brains of? Looks like it. I see no writings stating that Feanor forced people to make decisions that turned out to be harmful.


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## Thorondor_ (Oct 20, 2005)

> Please excuse me, Thorondor_ person, but I don't know who started using the blasphemous oath phrase. Did not intend to deflate your opinion of my memory too much. Would it help your point that what he did was blasphemous if I knew? *hides*


Tolkien wrote that, in a letter to Milton Waldman.


> I have no idea why the silly elves decided to follow Feanor instead of doing what they wanted to do in the first place (go back to brainless paradise).
> I see no writings stating that Feanor forced people to make decisions that turned out to be harmful


He is the mighties elf in the skill of word; his speech "stirred the noldor into madness". He also "drove them on,[in overhaste] fearing lest in the cooling of their hearts his words should wane and other counsels yet prevail". A bit of forcing their hand, wouldn't you say?


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## YayGollum (Oct 20, 2005)

Hehehe. Maybe.    Dang. That makes my side look bad, doesn't it? oh well. I gots to admire a dude with some good speech-making abilities. I guess that I would merely have to write ---> It is their fault for being stupid enough to be swayed. Or stirred into madness. A few of them had the brainpower to resist his awesomeness, but they still went along. That was stupid. Sure, it was written that they mostly came to help the stupid elves, but if they were so great, they should have made better speeches to get the brainless multitudes to stay in paradise. 

Anyways, to the bit about blasphemous oaths and Tolkien writing that ---> I have no problem with disagreeing with the author. I have done that plenty of times before. Maybe that Tolkien person didn't understand my point that gods are people, too, either.


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## Grond (Oct 20, 2005)

YayGollum said:


> ...Also, I would say that that ---> "lust for silmaril things bringing ruin not only to those who took the oath, but to all the elven kingdoms" bit of yours could be true. Why not? But then, are you not merely writing of many choices made by many people that the Feanor character did not take over the brains of? Looks like it. I see no writings stating that Feanor forced people to make decisions that turned out to be harmful.


It is the very thing that you seem to most admire about Feanor that did, indeed, "force" many of the Elves to come. Feanor's "force of will" and ability to lead and convince "forced" His own sons to be bound to him. They followed him blindly, as did many other Noldor. Another larger group chose to follow Fingolfin and abandoned Valinor more out of curiousity and boredom (as I see it) than revenge.

Cheers,

grond


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## YayGollum (Oct 21, 2005)

Having a great force of will doesn't mean that he's forcing anyone to do anything. That's just different ways of using the word. Even though I call all of those people brainless sheep and things like that, they all had to make their own decisions. Because those turned out to be dumb ones, I enjoy making fun, though. oh well. 

Anyways, one of the things that you wrote confused me, Grond person. Are you more of a fan of the brainless sheep who followed the achingly cool Feanor character or the curious and bored sheep who followed the superly boring Fingolfin character? It is most likely the curious and bored ones, since they were following a character that you happen to be more of a fan of, for some crazy reason. I was confused because most don't seem to view that particular group of elves that way. Cool. I happen to view them as other brainless sheep who became just as passionate as Feanor's group by way of his speech and would have gone with him, too, if it wasn't for their leaders, who they were more directly bound to. The leaders of that group had to follow Feanor in the stupid way that they did or go back to paradise and have their followers always looking east.  

Also, no, I admire the Feanor character for no particular action or quality. I mostly just admire the mind that thought him up.


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## Arvedui (Oct 21, 2005)

Grond said:


> It is the very thing that you seem to most admire about Feanor that did, indeed, "force" many of the Elves to come. Feanor's "force of will" and ability to lead and convince "forced" His own sons to be bound to him. They followed him blindly, as did many other Noldor. Another larger group chose to follow Fingolfin and abandoned Valinor more out of curiousity and boredom (as I see it) than revenge.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> grond


But don't forget that although trying to fight Morgoth brought ruin to the Noldor, it probably saved Middle-earth and Arda from Morgoth's "nihilistic frenzy."


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## Ingwë (Oct 22, 2005)

*Fingolfin and Fëanor...*



> Anyways, one of the things that you wrote confused me, Grond person. Are you more of a fan of the brainless sheep who followed the achingly cool Feanor character or the curious and bored sheep who followed the superly boring Fingolfin character? It is most likely the curious and bored ones, since they were following a character that you happen to be more of a fan of, for some crazy reason.


Why do you think that Fingolfin is boring? He's interestingcharacter. He fought face to face vs. The Dark lord Morgoth. Feanor couldn't reach him because of his foolishness. I think it is clear. *Y*es, Fëanor's followers were brainless sheeps who fell under his 'spell'. But Fingolfin's followers were Not bored sheeps. They followed him because they loved him and they loved their own friends who followed the tragic Fëanor character.


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## Thorondor_ (Oct 22, 2005)

> But don't forget that although trying to fight Morgoth brought ruin to the Noldor, it probably saved Middle-earth and Arda from Morgoth's "nihilistic frenzy."


I would say that it was the curse of the noldor (not the their effort to fight Morgoth per se) that brought them their ruin - and it was caused by the evil deeds of Feanor.


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## YayGollum (Oct 22, 2005)

You think that the Fingolfin person is interesting because he was stupid enough to fight Mel? I am not so much a fan of the stupid. oh well. I happen to think that the Fingolfin character is boring because I see no personality in him. Sure, I see a bunch of actions recorded but no actual brain, unlike the Feanor character. Maybe your definitions of boring and interesting are different from mine. I have noticed that many people seem to take the things that fictional characters do and imagine how cool an actual person who did things like that could be. I don't do that. I read books for the entertainment. Feanor is more entertaining than Fingolfin. sorry about that. Anyways, I would write that the dudes who followed the Feanor character were just as stupid as the dudes who followed the Fingolfin character. They were all sheep who wished to follow the obvious leaders.


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## Thorondor_ (Oct 22, 2005)

> Sure, I see a bunch of actions recorded but no actual brain, unlike the Feanor character


Quite the contrary; Fingolfin feared Feanor's "rash counsels" (and for good reasons) and he also didn't make the same mistake Feanor did when facing the forces of Angband.


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## YayGollum (Oct 23, 2005)

Maybe I should have kept writing about personality instead of brain. sorry about that. Where is the personality? Maybe I should write about originality and interestingness instead of personality? Sure, that sounds like the most accurate thing. Anyways, what mistake did the Feanor character make that the Fingolfin character didn't while facing any minion of Mel? You wrote of it as if it was some achingly well known thing.


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## Thorondor_ (Oct 23, 2005)

From: Of the return of the noldor


> Yet cause he had for great joy, though it was hidden from him for a while. For Feanor, in his wrath against the Enemy, would not halt, but pressed on behind the remnant of the Orcs, thinking so to come at Morgoth himself: and he laughed aloud as he wielded his sword, rejoicing that he had dared the wrath of the Valar and the evils of the road, that he might see the hour of his vengeance. Nothing did he know of Angband or the great strength of defence that Morgoth had so swiftly prepared: but even had he known it would not have deterred him, for he was fey, consumed by the flame of his own wrath. Thus it was that he drew far ahead of the van of his host; and seeing this the servants of Morgoth turned to bay, and there issued from Angband Balrogs to aid them
> ....
> But Fingolfin, being of other temper than Feanor, and wary of the wiles of Morgoth, withdrew from Dor Daedeloth and turned back towards Mithrim, for he had heard tidings that there he should find the sons of Feanor, and he desired also to have the shield of the Mountains of Shadow while his people rested and grew strong; for he had seen the strength of Angband, and thought not that it would fall to the sound of trumpets only





> Where is the personality? Maybe I should write about originality and interestingness instead of personality? Sure, that sounds like the most accurate thing


Seeing that Feanor became mostly driven by Melkor's lies, that chips away a large chunk of his originality, wouldn't you agree?


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## YayGollum (Oct 23, 2005)

Ah. Got it. Sure. That makes sense. But still. Nothing cool about the Fingolfin character, in my answering of the Ingwe person's question.  Unless you people only like him because he is muchly opposite to Feanor.


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## Grond (Oct 23, 2005)

YayGollum said:


> Ah. Got it. Sure. That makes sense. But still. Nothing cool about the Fingolfin character, in my answering of the Ingwe person's question.  Unless you people only like him because he is muchly opposite to Feanor.


Unlike Feanor, Fingolfin's motives were not tainted with evil. The "cause" may be just (in Feanor's case) but the motives were flawed/marred/influenced by evil. 

Cheers,

grond


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## Maedhros (Oct 23, 2005)

> Unlike Feanor, Fingolfin's motives were not tainted with evil. The "cause" may be just (in Feanor's case) but the motives were flawed/marred/influenced by evil.


I had to return from the Halls of Mandos to answer this. Of course Fingolfin's motives were tainted with evil, otherwise he would have not come to ME as his brother Finarfin had done.
Part of the motive of Fingolfin to want to come to ME besides the murdering of his father, was to confront Fëanor again because of the desertion of them in the Wastes of Araman.
And this was good too:
From the 


> §52d Then there was great unrest in Túna, and Finwë was troubled, and he summoned all his lords to council. But Fingolfin hastened to his halls and stood before him, saying: 'King and father, wilt thou not restrain the pride of our brother, Curufinwë, who is called the Spirit of Fire, all too truly? By what right does he speak for all our people, as were he king? Thou it was who long ago spoke before the Quendi, bidding them accept the guesting of the Mighty in Aman. Thou it was that led the Noldor upon the long road through the perilous Earth to the light of Eldanor. If this does not now repent thee, two sons at least thou hast to honour thy words!'
> §52e But even as he spoke, suddenly Fëanor appeared, and he strode into the chamber tall and threatening. A fire of anger was in his eyes, and he was fully armed: his high helm upon his head, and at his side a mighty sword. 'So it is, even as I guessed,' he said: 'my half-brother would be before me with my father, in this as in all other matters. *He would not wait for the council, where all words would be heard by all, and answered. He would speak against me in secret. This I will not brook!'* he cried, turning upon Fingolfin. 'Get thee gone, and take thy due place!' Then as a flash of flame he drew his sword. 'Get thee gone and dare my wrath no longer!'


What do you know, Grond and Maedhros debating about Fëanor. Seems like a long time ago.


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## Ingwë (Oct 24, 2005)

YayGollum said:


> You think that the Fingolfin person is interesting because he was stupid enough to fight Mel? I am not so much a fan of the stupid.


Yay, I love reading your posts. 
So you think that I think that Fingolfin is interesting because he was stupid to fight Melkor? No, I don't think so. What about Fëanor? Wasn't he stupid enough to attack Thangorodrim and to try fighting to Melkor? He was. It seems that you're a fan of the stupid. But Fëanor couldn't reach Melkor was was killed by the Balrogs. Fingolfin fought face to face to Morgoth and... well, he perished


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## YayGollum (Oct 24, 2005)

Yes, I would write that are not most people's motives flawed slash marred slash influenced in any way by evil? Nobody is pure good, so they all have a bit of evil in them. oh well.  The fact that the Feanor character acted the way that he did is one of the reasons for why he's so cool. Anyways, am happy to bring old rivals together by inciting Feanorian debate.  

Ingwe person, I love reading my posts, too. I must be the greatest.  Anyways, I only wrote my question about whether or not you liked the Fingolfin character for the only reason that you wrote ---> "He's an interesting character. He fought face to face vs. The Dark lord Morgoth." oh well. It didn't seem like much of a reason to enjoy a character, since that action was pretty stupid. I never wrote that everything that the Feanor character did was the most intelligent. I happen to think that the Feanor character is one of the best because of the reasons that I wrote at the beginning. Maybe more than those reasons, too.


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## Ingwë (Oct 25, 2005)

YayGollum said:


> Ingwe person, I love reading my posts, too. I must be the greatest.


Yes, of course you love reading your post. I love reding my ones, too  though I don't think that I'm the greatest 



YayGollum said:


> I only wrote my question about whether or not you liked the Fingolfin character for the only reason that you wrote ---> "He's an interesting character. He fought face to face vs. The Dark lord Morgoth." oh well. It didn't seem like much of a reason to enjoy a character, since that action was pretty stupid. I never wrote that everything that the Feanor character did was the most intelligent.


But as I previousl mentioned Fëanor was stupid enough to attack Melkor. So I don't think that you must _not _say Fingolfin's action is stupid. 
Certainly Fëanor wasn''t the most inteligent. Finarfin was because he returned to Valinor. Actually, he has never left the Blessed Realm )


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## YayGollum (Oct 25, 2005)

All should think that they are the greatest. With such self-confidence, you don't really have to mind that others might think the same thing of themselves. That's fine, since you are certain that they are wrong. just have pity on them.  Sure, you can admire people or admit that they are better than you in certain ways, but there is nothing wrong with thinking that you are the greatest. Anyways, sure, they were both stupid for certain reasons, but the Feanor character was still far more interesting, which was my point. The Fingon dude was probably the smartest and most boring, though.


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## Turambar (Oct 27, 2005)

Yes I am. It's just the way the story is written that makes me be on his side. I can't agree with a load of the stuff he did but when reading the story I always find myself on his side for some reason.


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## Inderjit S (Oct 27, 2005)

I suppose I am a Feanorian too. 

To accuse Feanor and Feanor alone for the fall of the Noldor is the over-simplification of a complicated issue-the Noldor were (to a degree) 'tainted' before they came to Aman, and after they lived in Aman-that Feanor was the main protaginist in the rebellion of the Noldor is without doubt, that Feanor was solely to blame for the actions of the Noldor is glib reasoning-the Noldor had minds and wills of their own, and many went for reasons different from Feanor's-some to avenge Finwe's death (such as Fingolfin), some to thwart Feanor (such as Galadriel), some to see new lands (such as Finrod) and some were constrained by their kinship (such as Turgon)-I see no reason as to why such a multifarity of reasons shouldn't exist outside of the House of Finwe. Nobody forced Fingon to aid Feanor and fight the Teleri, part of it was because of an inherent fault in his character and the Noldor in general-a mistrust of the Valar, nobody forced Fingolfin to claim the kingship when he just told Feanor he would follow Feanor wherever Feanor lead him, but then again nobody forced Feanor to act like such a moron. 

I guess Feanor is the shining light in what is a essentialy non-human paradise, he is the most 'human' of the Eldar, though he is also the strongest, his rebellion allows for the humanization of the Eldar, who were after all an imperfect race, as were all others races, the Vanyar being better than others, and as Tolkien states every story must have a fall-Feanor's fall leads to Silmarillion and the fall of the Noldor, it was tragic yet beautiful and the history of Arda was made greater because of it. Yet Feanor is also, in his own fashion, a tragic character, something which many people ignore.


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## Lady_of_Gondor (Dec 24, 2005)

I'm too much of a people pleaser to be a feanorian. I don't like going against the establishment too much (though I am politically liberal). I guess what I mean is I'm not generally the leader of dissention. There is too much responsibility in that, especially if you are wrong, quick to anger, and hotheaded as Feanor was.


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## Meneleher (Feb 4, 2006)

Fëanor was a genius, he created the Silmarils, the best jewls of all jewls. And, despite being proud and arrogant, he was the most important elf in Arda.


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## Annaheru (Feb 5, 2006)

Grond said:


> Unlike Feanor, Fingolfin's motives were not tainted with evil. The "cause" may be just (in Feanor's case) but the motives were flawed/marred/influenced by evil.


 
How do we know what influenced Fingolfin's motives? Look at the evidence:
"Ever Melkor found some ears that would heed him, and some tongues that would enlarge what they had heard; and his lies passed from friend to friend, as secrets of which the knowledge proves the teller wise. . . *many* of the Noldor believed, or half believed, the evil words. . . High princes were Feanor *and Fingolfin. . . but now they grew proud and jealous each of his rights and his possessions*. . . to Fingolfin and Finarfin it was said: 'Beware! Small love has the proud son of Miriel ever had for the children of Indis. Now he has become great, and he has his father in his hand. It will not be long before he drives you forth from Tuna!'" ~Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor, emphasis added

Take special note of the last two passages quoted- Fingolfins words in Finwe's council show that he was just as deceived as Feanor- for Feanor would never have taken the authority or throne of his father (or in any way demeaned him) while Finwe lived, just as Fingolfin was not have conspired to displant Finwe. 

I believe that Fingolfin's pledge to follow and obey Feanor was a recognition of his own fault in believing the lies of Morgoth.

Remember too that Feanor was specifically targeted by Morgoth because he wanted Feanor's Silmarils. The result was Finwe's death (which is an incredibly important aspect that lended itself to Fenor's Oath), and the loss of the Silmarils: items 1 and 2 in Feanor's love. Thus, if Fingolfin had been the greatest among the Noldor, if he had created those jewels, _he_ would have fallen, just like Feanor.

That doesn't mean that Feanor's actions were without guilt, just don't think that Fingolfin was all high and pure- he just got less of Morgoth's attention. Of the three brothers Finarfin is least worthy of blame (though it's possible that he too was deceived by Morgoth), because he repented and returned to await the judgement of the Valar.


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## Ingwë (Feb 6, 2006)

I agree that Fingolfin was influenced by Melkor but it also reffers to all other Noldor: _To Fingolfin and Finarfin it was said: 'Beware! Small love has the proud son of Miriel ever had for the children of Indis. _Who told Fingolfin and Finarfin? I don't think it was Melkor. The other Noldor were corrupted by Melkor and thus the words reached Fingolfin and Finarfin. So I think that all Noldor were influenced by Melkor, ever Indis's sons. 
I don't think Fingolfin could create the Silmarils. Fëanor was born to create the Jewels. His mother died because Fëanor was too powerful. He just used her energy when he was born. The death of Miriel and Fëanor The bearing of Fëanor consumed the spirit and body of Miriel. Fëanor was doomed to die. 
Remember that Finwë was father of Fingolfin and of Fëanor. I would say that Finwë's death influenced Fingolfin to follow his brother. 
However, I think that Fingolfin was more patient, more polite, less temperament that his elder brother.


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## Master of maps (Apr 25, 2008)

though feanor could have been a great elf, he insisted on causing repeated death and destruction. The making of the silmarils was a huge mistake in the first place, but then when they were stolen he made everyones problems worse by swearing that god awful oath of his,which caused most of the elf on elf slayings.


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