# Just a crazy theory...



## BluestEye (Feb 17, 2002)

> He [Melkor] had gone often alone into the void places seeking the Imperishable Flame... Yet he found not the Fire, for it is with Iluvatar.



Ainulindale, The Silmarillion

Gandalf said to the Balrog in Moria that he holds the Secret Fire of Anor. Maybe, just _maybe_, Gandalf *is* Iluvatar...

It's only a beginning of a theory, I just thought about it when I read it (I started reading the Sil again) and I decided to offer this theory to you.

BluestEye


----------



## Beleg Strongbow (Feb 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by BluestEye _
> *
> 
> Ainulindale, The Silmarillion
> ...



Yeah i think it might be a bit crazy but gandalf is olorin the maia and he would have been able 2 finish of sauron easily. Now would saruman be picked over eru? The flame of is the fire he can produce cause of the ring ain't it? Thats why gandalf is so good at doing things with fire?


----------



## BluestEye (Feb 17, 2002)

*That can be arguable*

Let's get into this a little deeper. Iluvatar created all things, and he knows what will happen at the end of all things. This and more, Iluvatar didn't want to interfer in the deeds of Arda. Instead he created the Valar and the Maiar and gave them the permission to order the world and build it as they want to, to fulfill Iluvatar's Song.
Now, maybe he decided that Melkor must be punished for his doings, for "ruining" Iluvatar's song, but he wanted to do it secretly, without interfering directly with the people of Middle-Earth, so he created a Maia (or he himself was clad as a Maia so other people, even other Valar, won't recognize him) and he went down to wonder among the people to help them personaly beat Melkor and Sauron, his helper.
This way, Gandalf had the Secret Fire because he himself was Iluvatar in disguise, _or_ Iluvatar created a Maia especialy for this mission and gave him to guard the Secret Fire so that Melkor or Sauron wouldn't find it under their noses.
So Gandalf-Iluvatar traveled through Middle-Earth with the Secret Fire and indeed had Fire-Magic and other powers because of this. But he wore also the Ring of Fire so that the poeple of Middle-Earth who knew about it won't ask questions.

BluestEye


----------



## Hirila (Feb 17, 2002)

Perhaps like God in this crazy movie: Dogma, where he (sorry, she) comes down onto earth for a game of mini-golf?

I don`t know. 

Gandalf is an Istari, like Saruman, Radagast and the blue ones. Then what are they? And it is said that Saruman is the mightiest among them. Ok, the person Gandalf could have been a disguise. But I don`t believe it. I think that Gandalf prooved to be the most powerful wizard simply because he was one of Manwes Maiar. And maybe Manwes Maiar are the most powerful just as Manwe himself is the mightiest Vala.


----------



## BluestEye (Feb 17, 2002)

I never thought about Alanys Morisette as Gandlaf, Jajajaja  

Now, seriously, though it is always said that Saruman is more powerful than Gandalf - it always seems that Gandalf is cleverer, greater and even more powerful than the rest of the Istari.
So maybe the rest of the Istari didn't even know that Iluvatar is watching them from within...  

BluestEye


----------



## Ancalagon (Feb 17, 2002)

Very good question: I imagine some of the Tolkien scholars will be devouring their tattered old volumes to try to give the perfect answer! I know I am...........................?


----------



## Anarchist (Feb 17, 2002)

What you are saying BluestEye is that Eru came to ME like Jesus Christ? (meaning with human appearance) This is an interesting theory but I disagree. Iluvatar wasn't there when Morgoth made his evil actions wich made much more damage than Sauron's actions. Why would he come now? Also, I don't think Iluvatar would make the mistake of passing through Caradhas and failing. But the fact that he fell in the abyss in Moria and didn't die makes me suspicous. Maybe you are right.  Now you confused me.


----------



## Atticus (Feb 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by BluestEye _
> *
> 
> Ainulindale, The Silmarillion
> ...



Man, Pass what you are smoking over here...that is some trip you went on there...interesting thought....but it is said specifically that Gandalf is Olorin the maia.
But the thought about Iluvatar coming into arda as another form is interesting.


----------



## BluestEye (Feb 17, 2002)

Ancalagon, what question do you mean? Is it the question if Gandalf is indeed Iluvatar?
As I said, Anarchist, it is a strange and crazy theory, but it can explain many things as you found out, and it can be possible. And maybe it is the answear to many riddles.
Neither you nor I can guess why Gandalf took the fellowship through Moria, but if he was Iluvatar it could be for some reasons combined together:

He couldn't save the Fellowship from Saruman's magics without exposing his true identity with his powers, so he gave Frodo the choice (a directed-psychologicaly choice) to go to Moria. This way he could escape the party without any suspicion by falling to the chasm with the Balrog. Then he could raise the Ents' hunger and make them go and fight Saruman. Again, I believe that Gandalf-Iluvatar didn't want to interfer directly in the world, but make small changes that will affect greatly the future of Arda.

Indeed, these reasons can fit also if Gandalf was just a Maia, and this is also a thing that he wished to conceal from most people of Middle-Earth, and this puts us in a confusing situation, wich makes it more exciting  

I think the Ents could bring some answears to this riddle and so I will go and look for them in The Two Towers.

Wish me luck  

BluestEye


----------



## Beorn (Feb 17, 2002)

This is a very interesting topic, but maybe some people should rather than close the subject, open it more!

That question actually flashed through my mind when reading the Silmarillion, but I disregarded it as a little wandering of my mind. I never really thought up some evidence though.

If Gandalf was Ilu, then it would fit very well that he would want to make discreet changes to the happenings of Arda. Ilu left a great deal up to the Valar and Maiar...so it would look like the Istari were taking care of Sauron, even though he was. Also, in the forming of the White Council, Galadriel wanted Olorin to be the head. We also know that Galadriel can perceive the thoughts of others. Never was a limit to whom she can 'read' given, so one might say that she read his thoughts, and knew what he was up to.

Someone may rebut this with "Well, why didn't Ilu/Olorin control the minds of everyone to make himself the head?" We know that Ilu wanted to have as little interaction as possible, so he probably just let it flow....


----------



## BluestEye (Feb 17, 2002)

If you want to know what I smoke, Attacus, think about this:  

Margaret weiss and Tracy Hickman's "Dragonlance" took many things from Tolkiens works. I don't say that they coppied, but... well... judge for yourselves:

Fizban, the strange wizards, wearing gray robes, was in fact the Great God, Paladin. He decsended to Krynn to make changes without people knowing that it was he.
But for some reason he felt that he must leave the party for a while so he  fell into a chasm!!!
Mmmmm... reminds you of someone else? 50 years before Dragonlance tolkien wrote the same story.
I know it doesn't prove anything, and this is not what I'm saying. It just seems to me more than a coincidence, and it rang some bells, so I went to look for more information about my idea and when I started to read the Sil again I started to build this theory that I brought to you here.

As I said, it is still a baby theory, but it might grow into something big. Anyway, you can't deny it IS an interesting theory  

Love,
BluestEye

Thank you for your understanding, Mike B, and if I may, I will add to what you started:

The Istari, as far as I know, are the only _New_ Maiar made by Iluvatar since he made the Old Maiar. Why make 5 new Maiar to take care of Sauron? Why not order some Old Maiar to do so? The answear can be in his putting himself inside this company of wizards and come down to earth to change things once and for all by himself.

BluestEye


----------



## Hirila (Feb 17, 2002)

Where does it say that Iluvatar made those 5 new Maiar?

As far as I know they have been there from the beginning! As the Maiar of Manwe (Olorin), Aule (Curunir, "Sauron"), Yavanna (Radagast)and whoever the blue Istari belonged to.


----------



## Goro Shimura (Feb 17, 2002)

There is a letter where someone asked Tolkien if Gandalf was supposed to be an analog of Christ.

He was horrified by the idea: Christ and Gandalf _are_ both (whether real or imaginary) heavenly beings that become incarnated into actual earthly bodies and experience pain, hunger, etc. -- BUT Tolkien considered Christ's meaning and purpose to be something of many magnitudes greater in significance than anything Gandalf ever thought of doing or being.

This makes me think that in Tolkiens mind, Gandalf was definitely not Iluvatar.


----------



## Hirila (Feb 17, 2002)

But Iluvatar is no God who promises those that believe in Him eternity and for the others there is place by the fire. The only analogy to Christian faith is the heavenly plave in Valinor where the elves go to. 

But that belongs to another thread...

But, though I don`t believe it, there is the possibility that Gandalf was Iluvatar.


----------



## BluestEye (Feb 17, 2002)

While I was looking for some clues in the chapters concerning the Ents in the Two Towers, I found these interesting paragraphs in The White Rider:



> 'My name!' said the old man again. 'Have you not guessed it already? You have heard it before, I think. Yes, you have heard it before. But come now, what of your tale?'



A few minutes later Legolas recognizes Gandalf, and Aragorn calls: 'Gandalf!', while Gimli sinks to his knees, shading his eyes.



> 'Gandalf,' the old man repeated, as if recalling from old memory a long disused word. 'Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf.'



Well, it is interesting indeed. Why would Gandalf "_Forget_ who he was?"

BluestEye


----------



## Hirila (Feb 17, 2002)

You`re right! Yes, I never saw it that way!

He must have thought of himself under another name, as of another person. As if Gandalf had died in Moria and another man with his lokks came out again.


----------



## Beorn (Feb 17, 2002)

Well, now I jump onto both sides of the conversation:

When Gandalf was given a new body, it is not likely that he was called Gandalf. Remember that he had many names: Lathspell, Gandalf, Mithrandir, Grey Pilgrim. Odds are, he was called Olorin when he was given his new body...


----------



## BluestEye (Feb 17, 2002)

But why would Gandalf not remember who he WAS before he came back (if he realy CAME BACK and not just went away for awhile)?
This and more, he surely haven't forgot anything about Bilbo, Frodo, Gimli, Legolas and Aragorn, nor about the entire World, so why would he forget his own name?

BluestEye


----------



## dgoof911 (Feb 17, 2002)

Also, remember when he said something about no mortal weapon will harm me now, why would he want to become more powerful than he was before? Meaning if he ewas Illuvater, and he died in Khazad-dum, or his body died, why would Eru of all things, want to come back more powerful? Im not saying Gandalf is Eru, but if he was Eru.


----------



## A Ranger (Feb 17, 2002)

If Gandalf was Eru almost every mystery that Lord of the Rings presented is cleared but unfourtantly Tolkien said Iluvatar never inhabted adra in one of his letters somewhere.


----------



## BluestEye (Feb 17, 2002)

A Ranger, dgoog911, please give me a quote, because I don't remember the things you mentioned from the books. It's not that I don't believe you, it's just that I want specific places to look to certify the theory or throw it to the garbage.

I don't remember Gandalf saying that now a weapon won't harm him. And if he did, what is the point in "killing" Gandalf, only to make him unharmed by any weapon later? Why not "making" him this way from the start? Something is fishy around here...

I have a feeling Gandalf-Iluvatar was pulling the strings all the way long without anyone knowing it...

BluestEye


----------



## Beleg Strongbow (Feb 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by BluestEye _
> *I never thought about Alanys Morisette as Gandlaf, Jajajaja
> 
> Now, seriously, though it is always said that Saruman is more powerful than Gandalf - it always seems that Gandalf is cleverer, greater and even more powerful than the rest of the Istari.
> ...






No it says in the sil that olorin was the wisest and also gandalf wasn't one of manwe's maia he walked in the gardens of lorien and spent a lot of time with neinna. Manwe new the heart most of iluvatar and he new gandalf didn't think he could beat sauron so he new he was the best for the job. He didn''t want to go but manwe new for M.E'S sake that he had 2 and iluvatar told him this.Also wouldn't it be the secret flame of arda not arnor?


----------



## Dhôn-Buri-Dhôn (Feb 17, 2002)

Frankly, I don't think it's so mysterious or suggestive that Gandalf forgot his name.

He'd recently returned from an experience of great intensity. We can assume that the battle with the Balrog and subsequent "reincarnation" was the most incredible experience of Gandalf's life. When he returned to the mundane world, it's quite possible that his previous life in ME seemed remote and unimportant for a while.

It's a bit like you or I feel after we come home from a very exciting vacation... the little day-to-day details of our home and work just don't seem so critical for a time. Only in Gandalf's case, of course, the contrast was far, far greater...


----------



## Mormegil (Feb 18, 2002)

I like the idea of Gandalf-eru. But I don't think it is the case.
Doesn't Gandalf say to the Balrog...
"I am a servant of The Secret Fire"

Why would Eru be a servant of his own fire?

I think that Gandalf is an ordinary maia who is serving Eru.

Anyway that is just my opinion, and it's open to change. Threads like this one can really get you thinking about things and challenging ideas that you thought were 100% correct.

Good thread BluestEye.


----------



## Snaga (Feb 18, 2002)

Well, if you got suspicious that someone might be god, just because they forgot their name you'd find plenty of candidates! Hey, after a heavy sesh the night before, I don't remember my name for at least the first hour after I get up the next morning!!!

Sorry Bluest, I'm probably being a bit boring but I don't really buy this one! When you've got a perfectly good explanation in the book, why create a much more elaborate one?


----------



## BluestEye (Feb 19, 2002)

Thank you, Mormegil  
As I said, Variag of Khand, this is only an idea I got while I was reading the Sil again, and I brought it to you to inspect this idea through your knowledge and experiance with JRRT's Middle-Earth. It is very possible that this idea is crazy, and that's the reason I named this Thread: "Just a crazy thought".

I don't have the FOTR right now with me (I'm in work)... are Gandalf's words realy: "I am a servant of the Secret Fire"?
This could change my idea for good 

Thanks,
BluestEye

P.S.
I think also that this is a good thread, even if this theory belongs to the trash


----------



## Snaga (Feb 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by BluestEye _
> *Thank you, Mormegil
> As I said, Variag of Khand, this is only an idea I got while I was reading the Sil again, and I brought it to you to inspect this idea through your knowledge and experiance with JRRT's Middle-Earth. It is very possible that this idea is crazy, and that's the reason I named this Thread: "Just a crazy thought".
> 
> ...



He does indeed say this. The quote is:



> I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.


 I agree this is a good thread.


----------



## BluestEye (Feb 20, 2002)

Thanks V of K  
So Mithrandir is the _servant_ of the Secret Fire, of Iluvatar. And it is obvious that he weilds the Flame of Anor, because everything that came to Being by Iluvatar has got the Fire Imperishable within it. So all things come to the beggining. Gandalf is a Maia and nothing else (though it is a great thing indeed being a Maia).
Thank you for a beautiful thread.

BluestEye


----------



## Bragollach (Feb 20, 2002)

Ok, so in the index of names in the Silmarillion


> Anor: See Minas Anor


In turn...


> Minas Anor: 'Tower of the Sun' (also simply Anor), afterwards called Minas Tirith; the city of Anarion, at the feet of Mount Mindolliun


Anarion was Isildur's brother, and Minas Tirith is of course the tower in the land of Gondor. So, the secret flame that Gandalf carries is the secret fire of Anor, of Gondor. Narya, the red ring was forged by Celebrimbor in Eregion. Eregion is a land at the base of the Misty Mountains, which is right smack in the middle of Gondor. The secret fire Gandalf reffered to was his ring, given to him by Cirdan. I'm getting all of this from the index of names in the Silmarillion. So, having resolved that the fired reffered to is not the 'Flame Imperishable' that particular connection between Eru and Gandalf is gone. There is actually a pretty good amount of textual evidence in Unfinished Tales about the Istari and about Gandalf/Olorin specifically. It's a whole chapter so I'm not going to quote it here, but it's there if you want to see how extensively Tolkien worked out just who Olorin was (an odd thing to do if the whole thing is a charade).


----------



## BluestEye (Feb 21, 2002)

Bragollach, it appears that it is a little complicated than that.

When Iluvatar told the Valar about Ea, the World that he's going to make, he said:

"'And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be.'"

Then, there is this paragraph that talks about the End of days and the Ainur...

"Then the themes of Iluvatar shall be played aright, and take Being in the moment of their utterance, for all shall then understand fully his intent in their part, and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Iluvatar shall give to their thoughts the *secret fire*, being well pleased."

_Both from the Ainulindale in the Silmarillion._ 

In the first paragraph that I mentioned we read that it is in fact Iluvatar who put the power of Being into all things that live. It is also said afterwards in the Sil, when Tulkas tries to make Beings of his own (the Dwarves):

"And the voice of Iluvatar said to him: 'Why hast thou done this? Why dost thou attempt a thing which thou knowest is beyond thy power and thy authority? For thou hast from me as a gift thy own being only, and no more; and therefore the creatures of thy hand and mind can live only by that being, moving when thou thinkest to move them, and if thy thought be elsewhere, standing idle.'"

_of Aule and Yavanna_ 

So only Iluvatar can put this Fire into Beings, and no one else can do the same thing.
The same thing is said about the Fire Imperishable (read my quote at the beginning of this Thread): that the Fire is only with Iluvatar. So it seems that the Flame Imperishable and the Secret Fire are different names for the same thing that only Iluvatar holds.
And, considering what is said in the first paragraph I've mentioned here, I don't think it will be the Ring of Fire that he will put in the thoughts of all in the End of Days...  

In a second thought, the Secret Fire can be only a _part_ of the Flame Imperishable that Iluvatar will give to the Ainur only in the End of days...

BluestEye


----------



## Bragollach (Feb 21, 2002)

You know what, I just got it. I reread Gandalf's quote on the bridge of Khazad-Dum and I get it now. He refers to both the "Secret Fire" AND "the flame of Anor". I was mistakenly thinking he was reffering to one thing with two names (we all know how Tolkien loved to give his creations more than one name). Ok, so Gandalf serves the Secret Flame (the creative fire of Eru) and wields the flame of Anor. So, he's a servant of Eru and a ring-bearer. I'm still very reluctant to believe that Gandalf is more than a Maia (given that he says 'servant' as someone pointed out rather than 'master') 
And in Unfinished Tales Tolkien wrote that 


> Saruman is said (e.g. by Gandalf himself) to have been the chief of the Istari-that is, higher in Valinorean stature than the others. Gandalf was evidently next in order."


 One more from Unfinished Tales that I think you'll like:


> Who was "Gandalf"? It is said that in later days (when again a shadow of evil arose in the Kingdom) it was believed by many of the "Faithful" of that time that "Gandalf" was the last appearance of Manwe himself, before his final withdrawal to the watchtowe of Taniquetil. (That Gandalf said that his name "in the West" had been Olorin was, according to this belief, the adoption of an incognito, a mere by-name.) I do not (of course) know the truth of the matter, and if I did it would be a mistake to be more explicit than Gandalf was. But I think it was not so. Manwe will not descend from the Mountain until the Dagor Dagorath, and the coming of the End, whenMelkor returns. To the overthrow of Morgoth he sent his herald Eonwe. To the defeat of Sauron would he not then send some lesser (but mighty) spirit of the angelic people, one coeval and equal, doubtless, with Sauron in their beginnings, but not more? Olorin was his name. But of Olorin we shall never know more than he revealed in Gandalf.


 I like your idea, and the way your playing with possibilities, but it seems well outside of Tolkien's intentions that Gandalf was Iluvatar. Fun to play with, but really not very likely at all.


----------



## BluestEye (Feb 21, 2002)

Hehehe, thank you, Bragollach, I realy enjoyed reading your messege. I realy liked it  
I think my theory was truly a crazy idea, but as you said, it can be played easily because even from your quote:

"But of Olorin we shall never know more than he revealed in Gandalf."

I guess this is the sentance that you thought I would like, and you are right, hehehe. To tell you the truth - I don't know what I think about Gandalf. I realy respect his wisdom and knowledge, and I like him very much because he is Good and he helps people. But I'm not sure I believe he was just a Maia. I think I will always be curious about who Gandalf realy was... And this mystery makes this story even more beautiful and magical, don't you think?

Thanks for a beautiful messege, Bragollach!  

BluestEye


----------



## Elfarmari (Feb 21, 2002)

this is a reply to something posted a while ago, but here it is. 


> 'Yes, you may still call me Gandalf,' he said, and the boice was the voice of their old friend and guide.' Get up, my good Gimli! No blame to you, and no harm done to me. Indeed my friends, none of you have any weapon that could hurt me. . . '


----------



## Bucky (Feb 22, 2002)

>>>Gandalf said to the Balrog in Moria that he holds the Secret Fire of Anor. Maybe,
just maybe, Gandalf is Iluvatar... 

I was reading this thread & couldn't believe it took 2 pages before somebody (VoK) corrected the quote.

And Gandalf never says he can't be harmed, just that Aragorn, Legolas & Gimli don't have a weapon that could harm him. 
When Denethor states that Gandalf may have withdrawn from the Nazgul Lord because he 'was overmatched', Gandalf responds 'It may well be."
He doesn't sound invincible to me (or himself) there.

Finally, where does it ever say in 'The White Rider' that Gandalf doesn't remember his name?
It's just that he's looking back, hasn't heard the name for a while as he's been falling for a long time, fighting a Balrog, dying & then 'weary from his struggle with The Eye'. And, then he goes to Lorien, where they call him Mithrandir, or as in 'Many Partings' Galadriel, Celeborn & he just pass thoughts back & forth.

Therefore, the 'recalling of a name long disused' as he hasn't heard it before that moment since he fell in the pit.


----------



## Beleg Strongbow (Feb 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Bucky _
> *>>>Gandalf said to the Balrog in Moria that he holds the Secret Fire of Anor. Maybe,
> just maybe, Gandalf is Iluvatar...
> 
> ...




It doesn't say that he forgot his name is says "gandalf, yes that was it, i was gandalf." I don't think he forgot is that much of a deal and i think he isn't iluvatar. If he was why not then challenge him (sauron) to a 1on 1 duel. Sauron would think he was stronger and would think he could get rid of his biggest threat there and then. Also when Melkor was in charge why not go then when the world was in a lot worse way.


----------



## Bucky (Feb 22, 2002)

>>>Also when Melkor was in charge why not go
then when the world was in a lot worse way.

That was Tolkien's final conclusion too.
Somebody quoted it earlier from UT. 
If Manwe sent his herald, Eonwe to the downfall of Morgoth, why would he send a much more powerful being, himself, to the downfall of Morgoth's servant, Sauron?

Also, how could Saruman be more powerful than Gandalf if hwe was Manwe?
And before you say that they came in weak forms & were not allowed to match Sauron power to power, & it could be Manwe in a 'weak & humble' state, those conditions went for BOTH wizards, & Saruman is still more powerful under that guise.


----------

