# Maeglin and Feeling sorry for bad guys



## HLGStrider (Apr 22, 2002)

I am not much of Sil. Scholar. I've read the whole thing once and selected parts a few times... but I wanted to know...

Does anyone else feel sorry for Maeglin?

Okay, so the guy was terrible... betrayed Gondolin... Never was much before that... spent most of his life sulking, but when I read about him I felt almost miserable I was so sorry for the guy! He didn't have the best of lives. His dad killed his mom. His dad cursed him while being executed. The girl he loved scorned him (I don't blame her, but I still feel sorry for him). Then she fell for a human (Humiliating for any self respecting elf, I imagine)... He's sort of a tragic character... A bit like that Sidney guy from the Tale of Two Cities... except Sidney died in a noble sacrifice and Maeglin went bad... any comments?

PS if I'm wrong on any solid facts, correct me. It's been awhile since I've read this.


----------



## Gamil Zirak (Apr 22, 2002)

I don't feal sorry for him. Just becaue you're dealt a bad hand in life, doesn't mean you should be given pitty and forget the fact that he betrayed Godnolin. The old saying goes, "When life gives you lemons, make lemonade." How you handle your misfortunes defines you as a person. Maeglin didn't handle his very well.

The Sil is full of tragic stories. It's just amazing that the chosen people (Elves) had so many terrible things happen to them. You'd think that they would get the best of everything.


----------



## Maedhros (Apr 22, 2002)

> Tuor sought to rescue Idril from the sack of the city, but Maeglin had laid hands on her, and on Eärendil; and Tuor fought with Maeglin on the walls, and cast him far out, and his body as it fell smote the rocky slopes of Amon Gwareth thrice ere it pitched into the flames below.





> Then she fell for a human


I don't remember that.


> Thus all seemed well with the fortunes of Maeglin, who had risen to be mighty among the princes of the Noldor, and greatest save one in the most renowned of their realms. Yet he did not reveal his heart: and though not all things went as he would he endured it in silence, hiding his mind so that few could read it, unless it were Idril Celebrindal. For from his first days in Gondolin he had borne a grief, ever worsening, that robbed him of all joy: he loved the beauty of Idril and desired her, without hope. The Eldar wedded not with km so near, nor ever before had any desired to do so. And however that might be, Idril loved Maeglin not at all; and knowing his thought of her she loved him the less. For it seemed to her a thing strange and crooked in him, as indeed the Eldar ever since have deemed it: an evil fruit of the Kinslaying, whereby the shadow of the curse of Mandos fell upon the last hope of the Noldor. But as the years passed still Maeglin watched Idril, and waited, and his love turned to darkness in his heart. And he sought the more to have his will in other matters, shirking no toil or burden, if he might thereby have power.


----------



## chrysophalax (Apr 22, 2002)

I've always thought Meaglin an extremely tragic figure. It would have been difficult for him to turn out any differently given the dysfunctional family he was born into. Anyone with Eol for a father had to come with LOADS of baggage. (Don't get me wrong, I've always rather admired Eol too for his skill as a smith.)


----------



## HLGStrider (Apr 22, 2002)

Well, there is no excuse for what he did, and I wouldn't have spared him after he did it, but I still think that if someone had started to talk to him sooner it could've been prevented... 

Hitler and Stalin also had very "disfunctional" families, if you want to call it that... Still isn't an excuse, just wonder what could of happened...

I told you I was a little sloppy on my knowlegde... I guess Idril did marry Tuor afterwards... but still it is tragic...


----------



## Dol Amroth (Apr 23, 2002)

*Meaglin/Sydney*

It's perhaps a mark of the sophostication of Tolkien's imaginative writings that they aren't the simple good/bad light/dark matters whichthey are so frequently accused of being by reviewers - usually without having bothers to read the books themselves. Rarely is there an example of unbridled evil with out some ambiguity or justification. I think we are indeed supposed to feel some sorrow for Meaglin, in the same way we feel sorrow, at times, for Smeagol/Gollum. If we cannot finally justify his actions, we can surely empathise with his motives.
Also, it's interesting to think about the good characters in the same light. Rarely is a character simply an archetypal figure for good. If this were not the case, wouldn't the stories get tedious?
I was interested by your comparison of Meaglin with Sydney Carton. The case is very similar. It was only the imediate danger to the woman heloved that saved Sydney. Would Meaglin have died to protect Idril I wonder? Possible, given the similarities of the circumstances, Tolkien's presentation is more believable than Dickins'...?


----------



## HLGStrider (Apr 23, 2002)

I'm not sure if he would've. Maeglin was scorned my Idril where as I would call Lucie from the Tale of Two Cities very kind to Sydney. Perhaps that made the difference. I don't know. Also, Sydney didn't seem jealous when Lucie married another man... sort of resigned to his fate. Both are tragic characters, however. Sydney ended up noble, Maeglin ended up cursed.


----------



## Dol Amroth (May 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> *Maeglin was scorned my Idril where as I would call Lucie from the Tale of Two Cities very kind to Sydney. Perhaps that made the difference. Also, Sydney didn't seem jealous when Lucie married another man... sort of resigned to his fate. *


Yes, I agree that Lucie's kindness must have helped Sydney, but he was jealous when she married. Thats why he said towards the beginning of the book that he hates Darnay - as with Tuor, Darnay represents what Sydney/Meaglin should and could have been, and thats why they're both jealous. Perhaps in Tolkien's version it was more the intervention or effect of fate - the curse of his father - that did for Meaglin.


----------



## HLGStrider (May 1, 2002)

It was certainly a nasty curse... and it was fullfilled. 

You'd think they'd take away badguy's ability to curse... I suppose that's what makes them bad... It was certainly a turning point in Maeglin's life.


----------



## Beleg Strongbow (May 2, 2002)

Yes i think so 2. He brought it on himself. I really disliked him and his father to.


----------



## Elanor2 (May 2, 2002)

Well, Sydney and Maeglin have in common that they both had personality disabilities and both "loved" a woman who preferred another man.

However, I do not think that Maeglin really loved Idril. He wanted her, but Love?

- He betrayed her father, her friends, her kingdom... and they were his own too!
- He tried to kidnap her and kill Earendil, her son. What man could expect to have the love of any woman whose son he had killed?

Somehow this doesn't sound like love, but more like greed.


----------



## HLGStrider (May 2, 2002)

Love gone really really bad??? There is an opposite and extreme for every virtue that is a sin.


----------



## Beleg Strongbow (May 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> *Love gone really really bad??? There is an opposite and extreme for every virtue that is a sin. *





Yes id say so 2.


----------



## HLGStrider (May 3, 2002)

I do pity the fellow, but from the beginning I had this feeling that didn't want him to go bad as well... as if he shouldn't go bad... like it was some sort of plot flaw for it to end that sad... Of course, some things have to end sad, and I'll just have to get used to it. I think that he really had a lot of potential, could've been a really great character, and that it went to waste. I don't think there is any book backing for this... just that I liked him when I first read about him escaping with his mother.


----------



## Dol Amroth (May 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> *... just that I liked him when I first read about him escaping with his mother. *



It's been a while since I read that part of "The Silmarillion", so take what follows with a pinch of salt. I can understand what you mean about liking him at the beginning. However, even then, wasn't he just been really selfish? I seem to remember that his motivation was primarily that once he had learned everything he could from his father, he abandoned him to further his own interests. Also, along a similar vein, isn't it possible to feel even vaguely sorry for his old man? ok, he had serious character defects, but at the end of the day, his wife abandonned him and his son betrayed him. He was treated in a very high-handed manner by the various lords of the Noldor as well. Perhaps we can emphasis with some of his motivation....?? Still a bad bad elf though!


----------



## HLGStrider (May 7, 2002)

Yes, I suppose you could feel sorry for Eol, but in my memory he basically kidnapped his wife. It has been awhile since I've read this longer than you most likely.
I'd thought that it was his mother's great stories of the greatness of the elves that inspired Maeglin and made him wish to go. Greed and selfishness might've had something to do with it. The same words could mean different things to different readers and it has been forever since I read this... two or three years anyway.


----------



## Confusticated (Jul 31, 2004)

I have a lot of sympathy for Maeglin. I totally relate to him, as rotten human . I mean it is fairly common for pain to turn into anger in humans, even if not so for the elves. I think it is kind of a matter of survival. Anger is a fuel and maybe even inspiration but pain and sorrow alone can cause a slow death. 


His own father tried to murder him. Not common for elves I am sure. His own mother died protecting him, and I'm sure he'd have done the same for her and would have rather it had been the other way.

It isn't his fault or even his doing that he loved his cousin. Things just didn't work out for Maeglin... he turned rotten as many humans do. I don't believe he was ever beyond redemption.

And I love his name (in sound and meaning) _Lomion_...


----------



## Felarof (Aug 5, 2004)

Maikanare said:


> Things just didn't work out for Maeglin... he turned rotten as many humans do. I don't believe he was ever beyond redemption.
> 
> And I love his name (in sound and meaning) _Lomion_...


Well said; I also felt when the character was introduced that you knew he'd be important, and it's tough to watch as he strays from the path of your expectations!

Like HLGStrider said, it's like you see the potential go to waste. But Tolkien does that so well, and out of the tragic story he weaves together people and places and ends up, at the Mouths of Sirion, bringing us to the redemption of the Elves... great stuff.


----------



## cellomagik (Aug 6, 2004)

Oh, I completely agree with you. I've always felt sorry for the poor elf, he never had things easy.

Granted, no-one really did, but Maeglin certainly didn't choose to be an "evil fruit of the Kinslaying", after all.


----------



## Artanis (Aug 6, 2004)

Sure I do feel sorry for Maeglin. Growing up in that gloomy place of Nan Elmoth, with a dysfunctional father who more or less kidnapped his mother and didn't name him before he was twelve, and who forbade him to see his own kin for the sole reason of them being Noldor. Then, after his arrival in Gondolin, Eól his father tries to kill him, but ends up killing his mother instead. As if that wasn't enough, Maeglin falls in love with Idril, who does not love him back, but gives her heart to a - *gasp* - Man, with Turgon's blessing.

When I think of what led up to it, I can even go so far as to understand his betrayal of Turgon revealing the whereabouts and warfare strategies of Gondolin to Morgoth.
That being said, there was NO excuse for Maeglin's cruel attack on Idril and Eärendil.


----------



## HLGStrider (Aug 7, 2004)

No. Nothing could excuse what he did. It's just that you feel sorry for and almost like the guy at first that makes it even more tragic. 


It helps to know there was a little bit of torture before he was broken too. . .at least i believe there was. I can't remember the exact reference, but I think when he was captured they tortured him and then offered him Idril in recompense.


----------



## HelplessModAddi (Aug 15, 2004)

Imagine sitting within spitting distance of someone you are in love with who despises you without having anyone around to help you.... for TWO HUNDRED YEARS. Bitterness, anyone?

Then imagine being threatened with the worst torture imaginable by someone who we in the modern world have no parallel for, but who represents primal fear and hatred to the Eldar at the basest level.

Then imagine that he will not only not torture you, but give you power and safety, and that woman you love, if only you help his armies find your home.

Right now, you probably aren't thinking very rationally, are you?

That said... if it wounds his dignity that Idril fell for a mortal, as opposed to some random Noldo, then he is a racist.


----------



## HLGStrider (Aug 15, 2004)

He probably was. . .but somewhat in his defense is that in Middle Earth you might just be able to make an arguement for Elven superiority. 
Also, marrying a mortal while being an immortal would have a lot of downsides to it. If he doesn't end up a cricket, you'd have to put him to sleep. (I hope most of you get those references).


----------



## Eriol (Aug 15, 2004)

HelplessModAddi said:


> Imagine sitting within spitting distance of someone you are in love with who despises you without having anyone around to help you.... for TWO HUNDRED YEARS. Bitterness, anyone?
> 
> Then imagine being threatened with the worst torture imaginable by someone who we in the modern world have no parallel for, but who represents primal fear and hatred to the Eldar at the basest level.
> 
> ...



If that was the end of his actions, everybody would understand him and probably forgive him -- including Idril. You are painting him like a Gorlim. Maeglin wasn't like that. After all of what you described happened, the guy went back to Gondolin and (in perfect personal safety) he helped Morgoth's forces while keeping a façade of being the loyal elf.

Maeglin, in effect, switched sides -- he became an agent of Morgoth._An agent of Morgoth_, whom, as you said, represented primal fear and hatred for the Eldar (including Maeglin). Morgoth, Evil Incarnate (and Maeglin knew it. He wasn't like the Easterlings, deceived by Sauron & Co. into believing that Morgoth was Eru). He was rooting for Morgoth's victory. He was rooting, for example, for Turgon's death -- Turgon, who was his great benefactor. 

The Silmarilion:

"...indeed desire for Idril and hatred for Tuor led Maeglin the easier to his treachery, *most infamous in all the histories of the Elder Days*. But Morgoth sent him back to Gondolin, lest any should suspect the betrayal, and so that Maeglin should aid the assault from within, when the hour came; and he abode in the halls of the King with smiling face and evil in his heart..."

If he were but a victim of torture and lust, as you pictured him, HMA, he would have told Turgon of his torture and betrayal as soon as he arrived on Gondolin, and Turgon would arrange for both defense and escape. He would also, perhaps, heed Ulmo's advice. 

He went far beyond what was to be expected in the circumstances; he was no Gorlim. There is a reason why Maeglin was considered, by the Elves, to be the most infamous character ever.


----------



## HelplessModAddi (Aug 15, 2004)

I'm not defending him, I'm trying to get into his head.

EDIT: Oh yeah, one other thing I forgot to mention. It is altogether likely that Maeglin was a victim of Morgoth's brainwashing techniques. There was a quote somewhere in the Silmarillion that described how those so affected by Morgoth did his will even without being watched. Yeah, it described them as wretched, ruined, hateful shells of their former selves, but there are ways to brainwashing people into thinking that they are happy and proud. Look up Jim Jones sometimes. A being with that much psychological presence could certainly twist Maeglin into behaving any way it pleased.


----------



## Eriol (Aug 15, 2004)

HelplessModAddi said:


> I'm not defending him, I'm trying to get into his head.



So am I.



> EDIT: Oh yeah, one other thing I forgot to mention. It is altogether likely that Maeglin was a victim of Morgoth's brainwashing techniques. There was a quote somewhere in the Silmarillion that described how those so affected by Morgoth did his will even without being watched.



The Eldar probably knew more than we did about Morgoth's brainwashing abilities; and they pronounced Maeglin's betrayal to be the most infamous betrayal ever. Compare the treatment of Maeglin with the treatment of Gorlim, also a traitor and a man to boot, and you'll see the difference. 

Maeglin not only betrayed the Eldar, he _enjoyed_ doing so (See? Getting into his head ). To ascribe this to brainwashing is to deny the inherent evil streak in him (seen from the beginning of his story) and to deny free will. Morgoth was strong, but he wasn't that strong.


----------



## HelplessModAddi (Aug 16, 2004)

> The Eldar probably knew more than we did about Morgoth's brainwashing abilities; and they pronounced Maeglin's betrayal to be the most infamous betrayal ever. Compare the treatment of Maeglin with the treatment of Gorlim, also a traitor and a man to boot, and you'll see the difference.


Well, people under interrogation know being malnourished and forced to stand up for eight hours in a room with fullbrights on while listening to Metallica weakens the mind, but that doesn't protect them, does it? And Gorlim's betrayal only resulted in about ten deaths. Maeglin ruined a whole city-state - the LAST city-state. And if there is any appreciable difference between the way men react to pain and the way Elves react to pain other than upbringing, then all our debating is vain.


> Maeglin not only betrayed the Eldar, he enjoyed doing so (See? Getting into his head ). To ascribe this to brainwashing is to deny the inherent evil streak in him (seen from the beginning of his story) and to deny free will. Morgoth was strong, but he wasn't that strong.


All I'm saying is Morgoth had to know enough about Maeglin to play him like an organ. After all, people don't suddenly turn around and root for destruction, disorder, and chaos because of some nebulous "evil streak," and unrequited love alone is only a seed of greater hatred. Maeglin must have somehow been convinced that he has been wronged by these benefactors, or that the Noldor themselves were evil, or something more complicated than OMG I'M EVIL NOW!1!1! Pain, if played right, turns to anger; anger turns to hate (I am NOT quoting Yoda, I am NOT quoting Yoda...). And its right after you've been tortured, exhausted, and listening to Metallica for eight hours that you are most vulnerable to such manipulation.


----------



## HLGStrider (Aug 16, 2004)

Well, Eriol does have a point. I think Maeglin probably willingly went bad. He was very much encouraged by outside forces to go bad, of course, but when push came to shove, he probably could've stood up to Morgoth and said, "Heck with you." 


However, at that point he obviously didn't want to. 

I still feel sorry for him, though, and think that if someone had hit him over the head with a frying pan a few years before he went bad, he would not have gone bad. I'm all for frying pan intervention when someone has gone off the straight and narrow. BANG BANG BANG!


----------



## Melkor (Sep 11, 2021)

Unrequited love can influence person a lot. That much that he betray everything and everyone just to be with his love. Maeglin was simply desperate. Melkor use this to convince him to betrayal. It was trade something for something. I don't defend him, this was clearly an evil decision. He activelly help to his enemy.

I honestly miss some character development of Maeglin. When he escaped with Aredhel to Gondolin, he seems like a nice person. I don't think he was always bad. Feanor also wasn't evil from the beggining. 

Btw. in Silmarilion and in Fall of Gondolin is stated that Idril hate Maeglin because he love her. But this doesn't make sense. Why would she hate him just because of this? I think that this have something more to do with his character development.


----------



## Olorgando (Sep 11, 2021)

Melkor said:


> Btw. in Silmarilion and in Fall of Gondolin is stated that Idril hate Maeglin because he love her. But this doesn't make sense. Why would she hate him just because of this?


Maeglin was Idril's first cousin, as his mother was Idril's aunt Aredhel. First-cousin marriages were an absolute no-no in Elven society (interestingly, not in British - or only English? - society, at least for a while). Then Aredhel had basically been kidnapped by Maeglin's father Eöl, making things worse. I'm not quite certain about the third point, as the Gondolin "Great Tale" may have nearly as many conflicting variants as "Beren & Lúthien", but I have some nagging memory that Maeglin may have been scheming to supplant Turgon as ruler of Gondolin - and that Idril may have sensed this plot against her father. I believe it was Idril's premonition (of some sort) that led to the digging of the underground route of escape that ultimately saved her, Tuor, Eärendil and some others.


----------



## Melkor (Sep 11, 2021)

Yes, I know that marriage of cousins are forbidden among the elves. But this still isn't reason to hatered.

If I remember correctly, Maeglin didn't plan overthrow Turgon. Later when he was captured, Melkor promissed him Idril and rule over Gondolin, but I think that Maeglin do it mostly for Idril. Melkor's true intetions were different - he didn't plane to make Maeglin king of Gondolin, because he want to destroy the city. But he didn't care if Maeglin take Idril or not.

But I think there must be something more than just love, why Idril hate Maeglin.


----------



## Olorgando (Sep 11, 2021)

Melkor said:


> But I think there must be something more than just love, why Idril hate Maeglin.


Is this stated as being from the start, when Maeglin and Aredhel managed to get to Gondolin, or after Maeglin had been captured by Morgoth, releasing him back to Gondolin as his inside agent?
In the latter case, it might be that Idril sensed this even though Maeglin tried to hide the fact of his capture from everyone.


----------



## Melkor (Sep 11, 2021)

This was before capture. I think that this is stated even in the story of Aredhel in the Silmarilion, where Maeglin didn't do anything bad.


----------



## Alcuin (Sep 12, 2021)

First and second cousin marriages were forbidden by the Catholic Church during the Middle Ages, but the prohibition seems to have been loosely enforced. Certainly people were aware that repeated close kinship marriages tended to produce what we recognize as genetic defects: the same occurs in other mammals, too. (This has been recognized since ancient Egypt, during which repeated close kinship marriages, sometimes between siblings or parents and children, was common: Tutankhamen married his sister, who suffered at least two miscarriages who were buried with their father.) Some historians argue that avoiding genetic illnesses, like hemophilia, which was arguably the immediate means through which the Russian Empire collapsed (combined with disastrous battlefield results and wretched homefront conditions during World War I), was the reason the Catholic Church tried to ban close kinship marriages; others more cynical argue that it was the Church’s attempt to prevent any one family from becoming too powerful. 

In any case, this prohibition was unsuccessful: Charles II of Spain, called “the Bewitched”, suffered from “Hapsburg jaw” as result of inbreeding. 





His mental facilities may or may not have been affected by inbreeding, but he died without heir, leading to the War of the Spanish Succession. 

In the United States, many state governments still forbid first cousin marriages, though toward the end of the twentieth century and going forward, some have rescinded such laws.


----------

