# Stubborn Ol' Celeborn



## Aulë (Oct 15, 2003)

> _Unfinished Tales: Of Glorfindel and Celeborn_
> Celeborn and Galadriel therefore went eastwards, about the year 700 of the Second Age, and established the (primarily but by no means solely) Noldorin realm of Eregion. It may be that Galadriel chose it because she knew of the Dwarves of Khazad-dûm (Moria). There were and always remained some Dwarves on the eastern side of Ered Lindon, where the very ancient mansions of Nogrod and Belegost had been – not far from Nenuial; but they had transferred most of their strength to Khazad-dûm. *Celeborn had no liking for Dwarves of any race (as he showed to Gimli in Lothlórien), and never forgave them for their part in the destruction of Doriath*; but it was only the host of Nogrod that took part in that assault, and it was destroyed in the battle of Sam Athrad {The Silmarillion pp. 233-5]. The Dwarves of Belegost were filled with dismay at the calamity and fear for its outcome, and this hastened their departure eastwards to Khazad-dûm. *Thus the Dwarves of Moria may be presumed to have been innocent of the ruin of Doriath and not hostile to the Elves.* In any case, Galadriel was more far-sighted in this than Celeborn; and she perceived from the beginning that Middle-earth could not be saved from "the residue of evil" that Morgoth had left behind him save by a union of all the peoples who were in their way and in their measure opposed to him. She looked upon the Dwarves also with the eye of a commander, seeing in them the finest warriors to pit against the Orcs. Moreover Galadriel was a Noldo, and she had a natural sympathy with their minds and their passionate love of crafts of hand, a sympathy much greater than that found among many of the Eldar: the Dwarves were "the Children of Aulë," and Galadriel, like others of the Noldor, had been a pupil of Aulë and Yavanna in Valinor.


Do you believe that Celeborn took his hatred against the Dwarves a little too far after the Ruin of Doriath?
Sure, his witnessed his kindred being slayed by the Dwarves of Nogrod and the resulting ruin of his home. But the Dwarves of Khazad-dum (made up of Longbeards, Dwarves of Belegost and the Dwarves of Nogrod who did not set out with the war host) were innocent, having not caused any harm to the Sindar.
Galadriel knew that an alliance of the Elves and Dwarves would be an important factor in the future wars with the remnants of Morgoth's minions, and surely she told Celeborn of this.



> _Unfinished Tales: Of Glorfindel and Celeborn_
> Celebrimbor had "an almost 'dwarvish' obsession with crafts"; and he soon became the chief artificer of Eregion, entering into a close relationship with the Dwarves of Khazad-dûm, among whom his greatest friend was Narvi. [In the inscription on the West-gate of Moria Gandalf read the words: Im Narvi hain echant: Celebrimbor o Eregion teithant i thiw hin: "I, Narvi, made them. Celebrimbor of Hollin drew these signs." The Fellowship of Ring II 4]. *Both Elves and Dwarves had great profit from this association: so that Eregion became far stronger, and Khazad-dûm far more beautiful, than either would have done alone.*


Celeborn would have witnessed first-hand of the 'good side' of Dwarves over the next few hundred years, and the benefits of friendship. Yet he still had a vendetta against them.



> _Unfinished Tales: Of Glorfindel and Celeborn_
> But in the meantime the power of Galadriel and Celeborn had grown, and Galadriel, assisted in this by her friendship with the Dwarves of Moria, had come into contact with the Nandorin realm of Lórinand on the other side of the Misty Mountains.





> _Unfinished Tales: Of Glorfindel and Celeborn_
> Before long Sauron had the Gwaith-i-Mírdain under his influence, for at first they had great profit from his instruction in secret matters of their craft. So great became his hold on the Mírdain that at length he persuaded them to revolt against Galadriel and Celeborn and to seize power in Eregion; and that was at some time between 1350 and 1400 of the Second Age. *Galadriel thereupon left Eregion and passed through Khazad-dûm to Lórinand, taking with her Amroth and Celebrían; but Celeborn would not enter the mansions of the Dwarves, and he remained behind in Eregion, disregarded by Celebrimbor.*


He wouldn't even travel through the glorious halls of Dwarrowdelf! He even seperated himself from his wife and children to avoid having to step in those halls. Talk about stubborn....(I can imagine the arguement they would have have before parting, with Galadriel calling him a contumacious old geezer  )



> _Unfinished Tales: Of Glorfindel and Celeborn_
> Elrond had gathered such a few of the Elves of Eregion as had escaped, but he had no force to withstand the onset. He would indeed have been overwhelmed had not Sauron host been attacked in the rear; *for Durin sent out a force of Dwarves from Khazad-dûm, and with them came Elves of Lórinand led by Amroth.* Elrond was able to extricate himself, but he was forced away northwards, and it was at that time [in the year 1697, according to the Tale of Years] that he established a refuge and stronghold at Imladris (Rivendell). Sauron withdrew the pursuit of Elrond and turned upon the Dwarves and the Elves of Lórinand, whom he drove back; but the Gates of Moria were shut, and he could not enter. Ever afterwards Moria had Sauron's hate, and all Orcs were commanded to harry Dwarves whenever they might.


The Dwarves even saved Celeborn's life!  He would have most likely been with Elrond when Sauron was advancing- and the only reason he survived was because the Dwarves of Moria and his son came to his aid. Yet he still doesn't forgive them.



> _FotR: The Mirror of Galadriel_
> 'It was a Balrog of Morgoth,' said Legolas; `of all elf-banes the most deadly, save the One who sits in the Dark Tower.'
> `Indeed I saw upon the bridge that which haunts our darkest dreams I saw Durin's Bane,' said Gimli in a low voice, and dread was in his eyes.
> 'Alas! ' said Celeborn. `We long have feared that under Caradhras a terror slept. But had I known that the Dwarves had stirred up this evil in Moria again, I would have forbidden you to pass the northern borders, you and all that went with you. And if it were possible, one would say that at the last Gandalf fell from wisdom into folly, going needlessly into the net of Moria.'


Thousands of years later- and he still hasn't forgiven them, although I presume the appearance of the Balrog probably gave him another reason to hate them.
Galadriel obviously had a place in her heart for Dwarves, and no doubt she would have tried to get Celeborn to do likewise. But apparently she failed at that task...

I get the feeling that Celeborn was a rather stubborn old git.


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## Flammifer (Oct 16, 2003)

Hehe.

I agree! Very well researched, Aulë! I think that Celeborn's resention (word?) for the Dwarves of Khazad-dum is completely unfair, especially considering, as you showed, that they saved his life.



> Thousands of years later- and he still hasn't forgiven them, although I presume the appearance of the Balrog probably gave him another reason to hate them.
> Galadriel obviously had a place in her heart for Dwarves, and no doubt she would have tried to get Celeborn to do likewise. But apparently she failed at that task...



Yeah, but...



> _LotR: Book two, Chapter VII, "The Mirror of Galadriel"_
> There was a silence. At length Celeborn spoke again. 'I did not know that your plight was so evil,' he said. Let Gimli forget my harsh words: I spoke in the trouble of my heart.'



He did later apologise though for his rash words, and he said that the reason he said these words was for the trouble in his heart. But maybe he was only trying to be polite, in light of the importance of the errand on which the Company were there. Or maybe Galadriel's words ("He would be rash indeed who said that thing...') shamed him into apologising...


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## Elanor2 (Oct 16, 2003)

The point, I think, is that we must compare Celeborn's opinions and prejudices with those of his wife, and Galadriel was exceptional among elves in her regard for other races. She was admirable in her tolerance, perceptiveness and practicality, but that cannot be said of many of the elves, including her husband.

If we look at Galadriel's career as described, for example, in the UT, few elves come close to her. I think it is easier to see Celeborn in a bad light in comparisson, but he was not exceptionally stuborn among his own people.


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## Flammifer (Oct 17, 2003)

> If we look at Galadriel's career as described, for example, in the UT, few elves come close to her. I think it is easier to see Celeborn in a bad light in comparisson, but he was not exceptionally stuborn among his own people.



His own people? Which ones? Do you mean Elves in general? Or the Elves of Doriath? Or the Elves of Lorien?

If you mean the Lorien Elves, their general dislike displayed towards the Dwarves could well be down to Celeborn, as he is the Lord of the land, and made the laws that prevented Dwarves from going on their land.


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## Ingolmin (Jan 5, 2017)

Celeborn had witnessed the fall of Beleriand which happened due to dwarves. His King Thingol and relative was killed by them in greed. I think after this incident he stopped trusting dwarves. Also he did not like their greed. Celeborn was different from Galadriel in interests. Galadriel was of the Noldor and she enjoyed ruling and mining and all that. But Celeborn was of the Teleri and his love was ever with the Sea.


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