# Evil Women in Tolkien's works?



## BlackCaptain (Jun 25, 2003)

I was thinking about who I as the Black Captain could marry from Tolkien's world, and all I could think of was Shelob and Ungoilant...

Are there any evil WOMEN in Tolkien's works?! I may not be able to think of any right now, and there may not be any...

Why do you think there wouldnt be any?


----------



## Lhunithiliel (Jun 25, 2003)

LOL 
I'm not offering marriage..
But who has ever said that the ringwraiths were men only?!


----------



## BlackCaptain (Jun 25, 2003)

> Great *Kings* of Men


----------



## Captain (Jun 25, 2003)

Yavanna! Those evil trees grrr... j/k. I can't think of any evil women.


----------



## Eriol (Jun 25, 2003)

Queen Berúthiel is the closest thing I can think of. She sounds evil to me.



Women are not meant to be evil -- it's not natural to them. Stubborn, perhaps (Erendis), but not evil.


----------



## Beleg (Jun 26, 2003)

Erendis' daughter seems like the most evil women to me.
And she is pretty too...prettiest of all except Ar-Zimpraphil the last one. 
and a Numenorean also Black Captain....


----------



## Feanorian (Jun 26, 2003)

> Queen Berúthiel is the closest thing I can think of. She sounds evil to me.



Well if she was not evil she was just plain creepy. 



> From the Unfinished Tales: The Istari-NOTES
> In a letter written in 1956 my father said that "There is hardly any reference in The Lord of The Rings to things that do not actually exist, on its own plane (of secondary or sub creational reality)" and added in a footnote to this: "The cats of Queen Beruthiel and the names of the other two wizards (five minus Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast) are all that I recollect"



It seems Tolkien created her simply for one sentence in LOTR or at least recalled her from early writings. She was evil enough for her husband(the twelfth King of Gondor) sent her and her cats away on a ship last seen floating past Umbar. 

I think you are right and thats about as evil as human or let me say non-spider creatures get. Except of course for the women of Harad, female orcs (if they exsist), etc who are really never mentioned.


----------



## Ardamir the Blessed (Jun 30, 2003)

Lobelia Sackville-Baggins


----------



## BlackCaptain (Jul 1, 2003)

Haha... Yeah I supose you're right... Every good novel needs it's stuck up female dog 

Am I allowed to say that? Hehe... If I'm not I'll edit it out...


----------



## Weathergirl2006 (Jul 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lhunithiliel _
> *LOL
> I'm not offering marriage..
> But who has ever said that the ringwraiths were men only?!    *


lol i think it would be cool to have a female ringwraith.hey one of them could have just been like eowen and dressed like a man... it could happen


----------



## Celebthôl (Jul 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by BlackCaptain _
> *I was thinking about who I as the Black Captain could marry from Tolkien's world, and all I could think of was Shelob and Ungoilant... *



Whoa dude, you wanna marry giant spiders....ok...good luck with that


----------



## legandir (Jul 7, 2003)

*Woman ringwraith ?*

I may be way off, but I seem to recall hearing about a female being one of the 9 ringwraiths, or if not being one of the kings of men who at least fell from graces of their kin if not wholly into servitude to the 9 rings.
This information I gleaned from a Ringwraith website but of course I cant find it right now

Any ideas, input, corrections ?

Does Adunaphel the quiet ring a bell ?


----------



## BlackCaptain (Jul 7, 2003)

No it does not, but I'm sure if I gave it enough research that bell would start ringing. However frankly I am far too tired to do any research, and any information about the Nazgûl is already as Vague as ... iduno... *insert something very very vague here*. 

But as far as I know they were all men...


----------



## Weathergirl2006 (Jul 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by BlackCaptain _
> *
> 
> But as far as I know they were all men... *



thats all ive ever heard of too...i think they would say rulers of men or such plus in the movie(not that it is reliable as a book) there all men.


----------



## Feanorian (Jul 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by BlackCaptain
> 
> But as far as I know they were all men...



That would stand to reason seeing how they are *Kings of Men*


----------



## Arwen89 (Jul 12, 2003)

*Eowyn*

I think that Eowyn is evil, she disobeyed her father and she hit on Aragorn, which to me is inexcusable.


----------



## Courtney (Jul 14, 2003)

I can't think of any evil women from LOTR, but on the map it mentions the witch realm of Angmar... you could make up your own really evil witch queen from there... Just a suggestion...


----------



## Weathergirl2006 (Jul 15, 2003)

*eviil*

are there any orc women if so there pretty evil??


----------



## Feanorian (Jul 15, 2003)

> I can't think of any evil women from LOTR, but on the map it mentions the witch realm of Angmar... you could make up your own really evil witch queen from there... Just a suggestion...



That was the realm of The Witch King of The Nazgul. Remember he was chased out of the North by Glorfindel and then tricked the King of Numenor into a dule later where he was attacked and captured.


----------



## legandir (Jul 16, 2003)

I found that website with the information on Adunaphel
http://www.rockjakten.com/nazgul_html/adunaphel.html

My only question is how accurate is the information presented there ?

Where do we find Canonical information on this topic ?


----------



## Malbeth (Jul 16, 2003)

There is also FOTR-movie Galadriel


----------



## Weathergirl2006 (Jul 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Malbeth _
> *There is also FOTR-movie Galadriel  *



hey! she isn't evil she is cool! she was just temperately taken by the thought of the power she could have..


----------



## Popqueen62 (Jul 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Eriol _
> 
> Women are not meant to be evil -- it's not natural to them. Stubborn, perhaps (Erendis), but not evil.




Who said we (women) weren't meant to be evil. Just cuz Tolkien didn't put evil women in, doesn't mean there weren't any. Sinful nature is evil. Men can be good, men can be evil, women can be good, women can be evil.


----------



## Lafeinyis (Aug 7, 2003)

So true! But wasn't there a kinda evil femail valar in the lost tailes?


----------



## Inderjit S (Aug 8, 2003)

> I think that Eowyn is evil, she disobeyed her father and she hit on Aragorn, which to me is inexcusable.



1. Theoden is her Uncle.

2. Merry disobeyed him too-does that make him evil too?

3. Shew knew nothing of Aragorn's relationship with Arwen. 



> Where do we find Canonical information on this topic



There is no Tolkien info on this, it is made up. They were also stated to be 'kings' of Men. 



> So true! But wasn't there a kinda evil femail valar in the lost tailes



Fui, the pre-cursor of Nienna wasn't evil. She was a death god, this was a stage when Tolkien's legendarium wasn't developed much.


----------



## Turgon (Aug 9, 2003)

*Adûnaphel the Quiet*

If I remember rightly Adûnaphel the Quiet springs from a supplement book from Iron Crown Enterprise's _Middle-earth Roleplaying Game_. ICE were reknowned for making quality supplements to their games, but created a lot of background to Middle-earth themselves, much of which has mistakenly slipped into the Tolkien mythos. 

There is no actual basis for Adûnaphel in Tolkien's works.


----------



## Eriol (Aug 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Popqueen62 _
> *Who said we (women) weren't meant to be evil. Just cuz Tolkien didn't put evil women in, doesn't mean there weren't any. Sinful nature is evil. Men can be good, men can be evil, women can be good, women can be evil. *



I said it. On the post you quoted.

 

I know I'm probably deluded, but what the heck, we must have a few delusions, and this one is among the best.


----------



## William Amos (Aug 17, 2003)

From the Simarillion there is the Vampire/Messenger Thurgenwaithel (sp ?) of Sauron. She was the shape that Luthien took when she went to rescue Beren.


----------



## BlackCaptain (Aug 17, 2003)

Ahhh yes.... I knew there had to be someone. Thanks William! Although she too like Shelob was a female CREATURE.... but none-the-less I hadn't thought of this one.


----------



## Arebeth (Aug 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Eriol _
> *Women are not meant to be evil -- it's not natural to them. Stubborn, perhaps (Erendis), but not evil.*



So what do you think I am???


----------



## Eriol (Aug 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Arebeth _
> *So what do you think I am??? *



Er... Queen Berúthiel?



Granted, French-speaking women are more apt to be evil than most (right?). But even so, evil does not "become" women. It is... unfitting. An evil (male) villain is the choice of nine out of ten writers.


----------



## Confusticated (Aug 27, 2003)

The best most cunning male villians show characteristics more commonly found in women.

Are women not sneeky to the core, more apt to have hidden agendas in most all social dealings, feign friendships in order to manipulte and use those around her on a level and in a manner so subtle that many men and some women wouldn't even imagine, and commit the worst kinds of treachery? In my observations women are more cunning than men.


----------



## Eriol (Aug 27, 2003)

Cunning, perhaps; but evil? I don't think so. It's hard to explain, especially because I don't know an English word that is the equivalent of what I'm thinking about -- the Portuguese "canalha". The Spanish "canalla" is similar, but not quite the same.

A woman is almost never "canalha". She may be devious, selfish, cunning, but in many instances these traits are used in "good causes", or in what is seen as a good cause from the woman's point of view.

A "canalha" does evil because he enjoys it; he finds it funny, amusing, exhilarating, or something like that. He does not presume to himself that he is doing it for a good cause. Not even "wicked witches" of fairy tales are like that, in my opinion. They are usually somewhat deluded, and at best "cartoonish".


----------



## Wonko The Sane (Sep 7, 2003)

The reason that there were no evil women in Tolkien might merely be the fact that there were very few women in Tolkien PERIOD!


----------



## Thuringwethil (Sep 7, 2003)

> _by William Amos _
> *From the Simarillion there is the Vampire/Messenger Thurgenwaithel (sp ?) of Sauron. She was the shape that Luthien took when she went to rescue Beren. *



You called..?  

(Darn Lúthien, stealing other peoples designs... Copyrights, anyone?)


----------



## Annushka (Sep 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Eriol _
> *Cunning, perhaps; but evil? I don't think so. It's hard to explain, especially because I don't know an English word that is the equivalent of what I'm thinking about -- the Portuguese "canalha". The Spanish "canalla" is similar, but not quite the same.
> 
> A woman is almost never "canalha". She may be devious, selfish, cunning, but in many instances these traits are used in "good causes", or in what is seen as a good cause from the woman's point of view.*



The "good cause" from a woman's point of view can be pure evil! 



> A "canalha" does evil because he enjoys it; he finds it funny, amusing, exhilarating, or something like that. He does not presume to himself that he is doing it for a good cause. Not even "wicked witches" of fairy tales are like that, in my opinion. They are usually somewhat deluded, and at best "cartoonish".



There is a word in Russian that has the similar pronounciation and the same meaning. It's used to describe men BTW. 



> In my observations women are more cunning than men.



Exactly!


----------



## Wonko The Sane (Sep 7, 2003)

But a "shape" Luthien takes is not a separate entity in and of itself...right?

I haven't read the Sil so I'm not sure...

But it seems to me that a shape Luthien takes doesn't count as an actual separate character.


----------



## Eriol (Sep 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Annushka _
> *The "good cause" from a woman's point of view can be pure evil! *



Sure, but a canalha _knows_ he is canalha, that the cause is no good; a woman in the position we are imagining _thinks_ that the cause is good while it is not. She is self-deluded. She thinks that doing "everything" for the husband/lover/child/family/cause is acceptable. 

Perhaps it is because they are more cunning, and therefore they can deceive themselves more easily .


----------



## Wonko The Sane (Sep 8, 2003)

Maybe turning this thread into a place where you say women are self-deluding, and more willing to fight for evil if it means they can get what they want (husband/lover/child/family) isn't a good idea.

This isn't for women bashing. It's for a discussion. You're not funny.


----------



## Eriol (Sep 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Wonko The Sane _
> *Maybe turning this thread into a place where you say women are self-deluding, and more willing to fight for evil if it means they can get what they want (husband/lover/child/family) isn't a good idea.
> 
> This isn't for women bashing. It's for a discussion. You're not funny. *



Well, perhaps I'm not funny, but I also did not bash women in the least. Unless you think that saying women are not evil is bashing women. Or perhaps you think that when I say that "a" woman, any particular woman, is evil, I'm bashing women in general. For that is the closest thing to "bashing" you will see in my posts.



Let me see...

"I said women are self-deluding" -- I didn't. I said an evil woman is self-deluded more often than not; and certainly evil men are less self-deluded about their own evil than evil women. If you think this is bashing women, I'm sorry.

"I said women are willing to fight for evil if it means they can get what they want" - huh? Where did I say that? I said women who fight for evil usually are doing it for a good cause, unlike men, who often do it without any regard for good causes. 

I think we should forget about it; my comment on "women are less evil than men", which started this train of discussion, was made in a lighthearted manner. I don't think it is wrong, but I don't want to discuss it like that. It's not funny -- though I am somewhat amused to see that this line of reasoning can be seen as "women bashing".

Yep, let's forget about it .


----------



## Wonko The Sane (Sep 13, 2003)

I'll accept your explanation, but your wording was ambiguous enough to make it seem as if you were including ALL women in your statement.

You're right. Let's just forget it.


----------

