# Is Middle Earth Round or flat?



## RangerStryder (Sep 27, 2008)

Hi all,

There's a discussion that I'm involved with in regards of the world of Middle Earth as a flat place to live in and then became round as a planet when the island of Numenor sank.

Is this true? I say its been round since the beginning of creation for its satellite (moon) is also round.

Pls help.....

PS: How big is Middle Earth?

Thanks!


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## Aisteru (Sep 27, 2008)

I would say (without any textual evidence) that Middle Earth is round. Although the maps are not in the typical shape needed to convey a sphere, it seems only logical that it would be. It would account for different temperature ranges and climates throughout the world too.


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## Turgon (Sep 27, 2008)

Well I'm sure this will bring up some good quotes and such from our resident scholars - personally I'd say both round and flat depending on your perspective. 

Originally middle-earth was flat, and was indeed made round after the sinking of Numenor - also we should remember that the moon wasn't a natural satelite - but a the last fruit of Telperion - one of the two trees.

In a few later essays found in The History of Middle-earth 'Myth Transformed' I think - Tolkien is of the opinion that Middle-earth's Cosmology is just legend handed down from days of yore or what have you - pretty much like our own creation legends I guess.

I'm not a scholar though - so I'm sure somebody will give you better info - and no doubt correct me... And personally I prefer the original cosmology as it's... well... it just appeals to me more.

Regarding the size of Middle-earth - Tolkien states a few times that Middle-earth is in fact our earth at an imagined earlier stage of it's history - I would think the were the same size.

Welcome to the forum Rangerstryder.


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## Alcuin (Sep 27, 2008)

The main line of Tolkien’s work indicates that Arda (the world) was flat until Númenor was removed from the Circles of the World. After that, the Dúnedain sailors from Middle-earth looking for Númenor apparently circumnavigated a round Arda. 

Late in Tolkien’s life, I think I recall reading that he worked on some lines in which Arda was always round; but these are not the main line of the material.

*Turgon* is right in saying that “Arda” is an imaginary version of the world we live in. “Ælfwine” is a late Dark Age or early medieval Anglo-Saxon inhabitant of England who comes to learn about the history of the Elves and the Dúnedain in some versions of the tale (compare that idea to the short story, “The Smith of Wooten Major”), and this is one way that Tolkien purports to bring _The Hobbit_, _The Lord of the Rings_, and the tales in _The Silmarillion _into modern possession; another means of “transmitting” these tales is through the dreams of members of “The Notion Club” in the case of the Akallabêth. (That part of the storyline appears in _Sauron Defeated_, and was developed in conjunction with C.S. Lewis’s _Narnia_ tales.)

I’d like to be lazy and forego all the quotes and citations; as a consequence, I may also have made some errors in this post, but I trust that other folks on TTF will happily correct my presentation.


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## chrysophalax (Sep 27, 2008)

As our esteemed Hidden King has stated, after the destruction of Numenor, Valinor was removed and the world bent, so that thereafter those who would come to the Undying Lands could still travel the Straight Road.

I've often tried to imagine sailing along and suddenly your ship no longer follows the curvature of the world and begins to sail in the air, as it were. Creepy! I'm terrified of heights, so I'd have to hide out in the hold somewhere.

Tolkien's letters seem to waffle back and forth as to whether eastward travel on the Road was possible. Could be that only Maiar or Ainur types were capable of this, possibly with the aid of the Valar, a la Gandalf.

Nice thread topic, Ranger!


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## Elthir (Sep 27, 2008)

JRRT was working on always-round-world texts before he finished _The Lord of the Rings_: Christopher Tolkien notes that _Ainulindale C*_ (Round World version) was: '...thus an experiment, conceived and composed, as it appears, before the writing of _The Return of the King_, and certainly before _The Lord of the Rings _was finished. It was set aside; but as it will appear later in this book, it was by no means entirely forgotten'. Morgoth's Ring

Tolkien also wrote a round world version of the _Fall of Númenor_ before _The Lord of the Rings_ was completed. In any case I think JRRT did not necessarily have to abandon (texts which included) notions of a once flat world, as he could imply that the idea was Mannish-based.

'It is now clear to me that in any case the Mythology must actually be a 'Mannish' affair (...) what we have in the Silmarillion etc. are traditions (especially personalized, and centered upon _actors_, (such as Feanor) handed on by _Men_ in Númenor and later in Middle-earth (Arnor and Gondor); but already far back -- from the first association of the Dúnedain and Elf-friends with the Eldar of Beleriand -- blended and confused with their own Mannish myths and cosmic ideas.' JRRT Text I _Myths Transformed,_ Morgoth's Ring

As to what Tolkien's 'final' or finished legendarium was going to incorporate, I cannot say of course, but basically Númenorean transmission was incorporated in part, in any case, in text published by JRRT himself (_The Adventures of Tom Bombadil_). As late as 1971 Tolkien writes (in a letter) about the Immortals who travel to the West, explaining that they followed the Straight Road and left the physical world (including the idea that the Elves who sailed were abandoning history). JRRT touches upon the sojourn of the mortals Oversea as well, and concludes with:

'This general idea lies behind the events of _The Lord of the Rings_ and the _Silmarillion_, but it is not put forward as geologically or astronomically 'true'; except that some special catastrophe is supposed to lie behind the legends and marked the first stage in the succession of Men to dominion of the world. But the legends are mainly of 'Mannish' origin blended with those of the Sindar (Gray-elves) and others who had never left Middle-earth.' JRRT, Letter 325, 1971

If JRRT was really headed this way, a 'once flat world' could still play a part in the legendarium, however this notion could arguably be thought of as a Mannish confusion, or implied to be by comparison with certain tales or commentary deriving from the Eldar of Aman -- who were in closer association with the Valar, and whose history and legends perhaps included variant ideas. Of course Bombadil's remarks could be raised (his 'bent seas' for example), though I'm not sure if Readers of _The Hobbit_ and _The Lord of the Rings_, or _only_ Tolkien-published text, would conclude that Tom certainly means the world was once flat.


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## RangerStryder (Sep 28, 2008)

Thanks for all the reply guys....btw here's the forum where the topic originated.
http://www.gamereplays.org/community/index.php?showtopic=387079&st=20


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## Gothmog (Sep 28, 2008)

Interesting thread. However, I would like to say one thing.


> I decided to let those people who consider themselves "expert or Tolkien scholars" on JRR Tolkien's works to answer this question.


I certainly do not consider myself "expert" I, (and probably most of the members of this site think much the same), consider myself as a Tolkien student.

My answer to someone who says they are an "Expert" is 'an 'Ex' is a has-been and a 'Spurt' is a drip-under-pressure!


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## Alcuin (Sep 28, 2008)

The experts are making their living doing this. They have access to the archival writings, and we cite their work. For nearly all of us, this is an avocation, not an occupation, even if it occupies an inordinate amount of time.

Christopher Tolkien’s introductory paragraph to _Morgoth’s Ring_, “Myths Transformed”, I, first paragraph on page 370*, reads in part,


> I give first a short statement written on two slips found pinned to one of the _Annals of Aman_, which would date it to 1958 or later…


In chapter “Ainulindalë”, first paragraph on “Commentary on the Ainulindalë text C”, page 23, Christopher Tolkien writes (the bolding is an editorial addition by me to emphasize the point),


> The revision C introduces a *radical re-reordering of the original matter* of the _Ainulindalë_, *together with much that is new*…


_RotK_ was published in 1955, so this material, while certainly under development while _LotR_ was being written, doesn’t seem to me to be definitive: at best, I think the matter is confused, and that Tolkien was transitioning from older material to later. I think it is self-evident from his maps and drawings reproduced in _The Shaping of Middle-earth_ that in the 1930s and during the critical years of the 1940s, when _LotR_ was being written, that Tolkien envisioned a “flat earth” before the Downfall of Númenor. 

Christopher Tolkien has dated the text in _Sauron Defeated_, “The Drowning of Anadûnê”, “The Last Tales: 1. The Fall of Númenor” §8, to 1942:


> Then Ilúvatar cast back the Great Seas west of Middle-earth and the Empty Lands east of it, and new lands and new seas were made; and the world was diminished, for Valinor and Eressëa were taken from it into the realm of hidden things. And thereafter, however a man might sail, he could never again reach the True West, but would come back weary at last to the place of his beginnings; for all lands and seas were equally distant from the centre of the earth…


This is strikingly similar to the passages in _Silmarillion_.

That said, I agree with you, *Galin*, that “after the fact,” Tolkien may have found this line unsatisfactory, and that he set about to alter it, explaining any differences as “Mannish” misunderstanding. With a little effort, we could probably find several examples of such efforts besides the flat-or-round Arda question. Indeed, in _Sauron Defeated_, “The Drowning of Anadûnê”, “(v) The Theory of the Work”, Christopher Tolkien writes,


> At any rate, this is here unequivocal evidence of how, long afterwards, he perceived his intention in _ The Drowning of Anadûnê_: it was, specifically, a ‘Mannish tradition’.


To me, the critical part of this quote is the phrase “long afterwards”: a decade, at least, it seems to me.

Such considerations arose from Tolkien’s *occupation*, philology: his _*avocation*_ was _Lord of the Rings_. Shortly before this quote, Christopher Tolkien dates these considerations to “the 1960s.” He directly quotes his father,


> Contains very old version (in Adûnaic) which is good – in so far as it is just as different (in inclusion and omission and emphasis) as would be probably in the supposed case:
> 
> Mannish tradition
> Elvish tradition
> Mixed Dúnedanic tradition


In the same passage, Christopher Tolkien says that,


> It seems likely to me that by ‘Elvish tradition’ he [noparse][his father JRR Tolkien][/noparse] meant _The Fall of Númenor_ [noparse][which I just cited][/noparse]; and since ‘Mixed Dúnedanic tradition’ presumably means a mixture of Elvish and Númenórean tradition, he was surely referring to the _Akallabêth_, in which both _The Fall of Númenor_ and _The Drowning of Anadûnê_ were used…


I claim no expertise. This is merely a time-consuming avocation.

* For my page references, I am using the 1993 American edition; there did not appear to be another American printing prior to mine. Page numbers may differ in other printings.


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## Illuin (Sep 28, 2008)

> by Turgon
> _Originally middle-earth was flat, and was indeed made round after the sinking of Numenor - also we should remember that the moon wasn't a natural satelite - but a the last fruit of Telperion - one of the two trees._
> _I'm not a scholar though - so I'm sure somebody will give you better info - and no doubt correct me... And personally I prefer the original cosmology as it's... well... it just appeals to me more._


 
Um….actually no. Doubtful someone will give you better (i.e. more accurate; or emphatic) info. With all of the extraneous material that has been mentioned; nothing new has been said. The Hidden King has hit the nail on the head once again. The rest is supposition. Now my old friend Fangorn....the Star question in The Silmarillion Trivia.. give it a shot. You are my only hope 

.


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## Elthir (Sep 28, 2008)

Well the short answer is that I think no one knows for sure. 

As far as I'm aware there are opinions both ways, but in any case, as I say above (for clarity nothing about definitiveness either way), there is textual evidence that JRRT was rethinking flat world ideas during the writing of _The Lord of the Rings_ (The Drowning of Anadûnê as it was written is an always-round-world version). 

Anyway, *Alcuin* what do mean with the characterization of 'critical' there... I'm not sure I follow your point concerning the later dating. Generally speaking, often enough people will quote later versions merely because being later carries weight (possibly speaking to revision, or where Tolkien was arguably headed) -- though that's certainly not the only consideration of course.

__________

More on transmission (not that anyone is arguing the point but I already had this lying around from another post elsewhere): 

In the draft letter discussed in the section on the _Ainulindale _(Morgoth's Ring) Tolkien wrote: 'All these histories are told by Elves and are not primarily concerned with Men.' (compare to the statement published in the _Prologue _to The Fellowship of the Ring: _'The beginning of Hobbits lies far back in the Elder Days that are now lost and forgotten. Only the Elves still preserve any records of that time, and their traditions are concerned almost entirely with their own history, in which Men appear seldom and Hobbits are not mentioned at all.') _Tolkien also noted here that: 'The Elvish myths are 'Flat World'. A pity really but it is too integral to change it.' 

Made clear from the same letter, Tolkien is still thinking in terms of the Elfwine transmission, that is, Eriol brought back copies and translations from the Elvish Isle of Tol Eressea. Skipping ahead to _Myths Transformed _of the 'late 1950s', and related material from Athrabeth related texts -- also generally from the same time (1959, possibly 1955-1959), and also reproduced in Morgoth's Ring. 

*Text I *(pinned to the typescript of Annals of Aman) relating the transmission of the Mythology as a Mannish affair provided a basis for the retention of Flat World notions. But then JRRT appears to waffle, and certain subsequent texts evidence older ideas not being retained. 

CJRT then cites a note in which his father states: 'The three Great Tales must be Númenórean, and derived from matter preserved in Gondor' and Christopher also refers to a Númenórean transmission in the abandoned typescript AAm*. He next notes Tolkien's commentary to the Athrabeth (note 2), in which the transmission is from the Eldar of the First Age through Elves who never were directly acquainted with the Valar and Men who injected their own ideas. 

The _Commentary on the Athrabeth _includes three other references, in general at least, to Númenórean transmission, and the first speaks to something in the _Quenta Silmarillion _proper: Christopher Tolkien references pages 342 (the myth that appears at the end of the Silmarillion is of Númenórean origin -- meaning the prophecy of Mandos), 344 (The People of Marach and etc), 360 (Marach and etc, again) -- he then refers to a furious scribble on the back of a slip dealing with the Túrin legend, which includes: 'The cosmogonic myths are Númenórean, blending Elven-lore with human myth and imagination. A note should say that the Wise of Númenor recorded that the making of stars was not so, nor of Sun and Moon. (...)' 

That's five references to Númenórean transmission which bear upon Silmarillion material (not counting the 2 Marach references). *Text II *however, has Tolkien revising (but also retaining romantic ideas). *Text III *incorporates the Dome of Varda, which also appears in Tolkien's final work of Quenta Silmarillion (LQS II § 57) and in late material for _The Problem of Ros. _

*Text IV *concerns the Dome of Varda and the Star-imagines, but noted within is a reference to: '... Varda, was in Eldarin and Númenórean legend said to have designed and set in their places most of the principle stars....' Here is a 'transformed' text (or at least included in the section Myths Transformed), but Númenórean transmission seems part of the package. 

*Text V *is not only a revised text concerning the Sun and etc, but Tolkien even seems to raise doubts about a Mannish transmission: '... especially since the Valar must be supposed to know the truth about the structure of Ea (and not make mythical guesses like Men) and to have communicated this to the Eldar (and so to the Númenóreans!) -- it is also impossible chronologically in the Narrative.'

In any case, in the 1960s revised edition of _The Lord of the Rings _appears 'the Bilbo in Rivendell' element with respect to transmission (Bilbo's 'Translations from the Elvish' and etc). With Bilbo becoming one of many other 'Elf-friends' in any case, a variant transmission enters; and Tolkien will also publish, for example, in the Preface to _The Adventures of Tom Bombadil and other verses from the Red Book _that no. 14 (The Hoard) depends upon the lore of Rivendell, Elvish and Númenórean concerning the heroic days at the end of the First Age, and that it seemed to contain echoes _of the Númenórean tale of Túrin and Mim. _

Also, a note to _The Shibboleth of Feanor _(note 17) reads in part: 'As is seen in the Silmarillion. This is not an Eldarin title or work. It is a compilation, probably made in Númenor (...) All however are 'Mannish' works.' CJRT also references a late note related to the reincarnation of Elves, in which (JRRT writes) nearly all the matter of the Silmarillion is contained in myths and legends that have passed through Men's hands and minds. (Last Writings, The Peoples of Middle-Earth). 

These aren't meant to be exhaustive though.


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## Alcuin (Sep 29, 2008)

Galin said:


> Anyway, Alcuin what do mean with the characterization of 'critical' there... I'm not sure I follow your point concerning the later dating.



It’s “critical” in that it was written during the period that the Númenor material was being added to _The Lord of the Rings_. The Faramir material was written during 1944. (Cf. _Letters_ for material dated that year.) 

It’s “critical” because _The Lord of the Rings_ was completed in the early 1950s. _The Return of the King_ was published in October 1955. Material written in 1958, while it might have been in Tolkien’s mind before 1955, is less likely to have been incorporated into the idea of the text; and it was almost certainly not part of the original writing in the 1940s, especially when you compare it to “The Notion Club,” “The Fall of Númenor,” and “The Downfall of Anadûnê.” 



Galin said:


> Generally speaking, often enough people will quote later versions merely because being later carries weight (possibly speaking to revision, or where Tolkien was arguably headed) -- though that's certainly not the only consideration of course.



Accepting the latest material would be the normal practice, I agree. (I am uncomfortable some writings from 1973 and possibly in 1972, a period during which Tolkien and his children noticed a decline in his acuity, especially in regards to the nature of Galadriel’s rebellion and departure to Middle-earth: the last tellings for this part of the legendarium simply do not fit with the rest, in my opinion.) In this case, though, if you’re trying to discover the point of view that Tolkien used when he wrote (1) _LotR_, and (2) most of the material later edited and incorporated into _Silmarillion_, including _Akallabêth_ as published there, then you are looking at what I called his “main line” in my earlier post: what was published during or just after his lifetime. 

There’s always disagreement about what is “canonical” and what is “apocryphal” is Tolkien’s voluminous work. I think what’s indisputable is that Tolkien sought to work with what he had published in _The Lord of the Rings_, even if later he was uncomfortable with it. 

That leads me to the conclusion that what he was doing was working to revise the underpinnings of the “flat” mythos of Númenórean Arda – the foundation of the _Silmarillion_ cycle of tales, including “The Voyage of Eärendil” – with the real-world concept of an “always round” Arda. And I think it was causing him problems, because he spent 40 or 45 years writing the stories one way, and then 15 or 20 years trying to rewrite them into another way.

If *RangerStryder*’s question that began this thread is, “What was Tolkien’s intention when he wrote _The Lord of the Rings_ or ‘The Flight of the Noldor’ or ‘The Tale of Beren and Lúthien’ or ‘The Voyage of Eärendil’?” then I think the answer is that he perceived his subcreated world in the First and Second Ages as “flat,” like the traditional medieval view (in fact, as Tolkien was no doubt aware, the best medieval scholars were quite well aware that the world was round: that’s the traditional reason cited for King John II of Portugal to threw Christopher Columbus out his court: King John knew the approximate circumference of the earth and that Columbus could not survive a voyage from Portugal to Cathay; fortunately for Columbus, he stumbled into a Caribbean archipelago and thought his erroneous calculations were correct) or the mythical view held by the Norse and their pagan German kinsfolk. 

The Norse view seems to me to have some force. The idea of sailing to some unknown or mythical land in the West is an old one in northwest Europe: the Island of Avalon for King Arthur (Avallónë is the main port in Tolkien’s Tol Eressëa), Greenland and Markland and Vinland for the Norse, and St. Brendan of Ireland sailing west. (The _Íslendingabók of Ari Thorgilsson_ claims that the Norse settlers encountered Irish monks when they first arrived in Iceland.) The Norse in particular sailed west without fear because their beliefs dictated a flat earth, and they held that they would sail into the rim of the world rather than off into the void, or so I was taught as a child. (That was, admittedly, a long time ago now: perhaps things have changed since then.) This idea is retained to the end of Tolkien’s life: the *Lost Road* or the *Straight Road* reflects the beliefs of the Anglo-Saxons and their kinsfolk in northwest Europe that Tolkien knew so well from his daily work.

If *RangerStryder*’s question that began this thread is, “What was Tolkien’s intention in the last 15 or 18 years of his life?” then I think your position is correct: he was working toward an “always round” world basis for his subcreation. I don’t think that was ever achieved to his satisfaction, because I think that that citations you and I have made show that he is struggling to rework the old stories, some of which when he died had been in their oldest written forms for 60 years. I think that at one point, Christopher Tolkien wrote that his father was simply overwhelmed with the work that was required to get everything into clean, publishable form. I think beating the “flat” Arda preceding the Downfall of Númenor into the “always round” Arda that he wanted – and I agree with you that this was one of his goals – was a project that he was never able to complete to his satisfaction.

Finally, the idea of a “round world,” while known and accepted and understood by the very learned since before Eratosthenes of Cyrene calculated the diameter of the earth around 200 BC, was not widely understood or accepted by the European public until the [strike]fifteenth[/strike] sixteenth century. I think the real-world mental and philosophical transition from “flat” world to “round” world is reflected in Tolkien’s world: Men moved from the mythical world in which Elves and even the Valar and Maiar were reachable and approachable, to a world in which the Ainur were completely unapproachable and the Elves were less and less approachable until they finally became unapproachable as well. The mythical is replaced by the apparently mundane, so that it takes an Aragorn to remind us that


> The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day!


*Galin*, I’m not disagreeing with you. I concur with you that Christopher Tolkien points out that his father was careful to take the position that these are stories passed down by Men, and that their original Elvish versions have been mangled along the way, except for the “transmission” of _The Lord of the Rings_. I think the textual evidence strongly suggests that an “always round” Arda was not a significant consideration in Tolkien’s writing before 1955, so that a “flat Arda before the Downfall” prevails in _The Lord of the Rings_, but is not important in the story.

I just think that is one time that we have to be very careful using the last material to make sense of what’s in _The Lord of the Rings_ and, to a lesser extent, _The Silmarillion_. I agree with you that the accepted practice is to use the later material: but if you do, I think you’ll lose a lot of the power and depth of the stories. If you disagree, and you think that the stories are better dispensing with this silly “Mannish” notion of a “flat” earth, I don’t have a reason to argue with you.


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## Elthir (Sep 29, 2008)

Alcuin said:


> It’s “critical” in that it was written during the period that the Númenor material was being added to _The Lord of the Rings_. The Faramir material was written during 1944. (Cf. _Letters_ for material dated that year.)
> 
> It’s “critical” because _The Lord of the Rings_ was completed in the early 1950s. _The Return of the King_ was published in October 1955. Material written in 1958, while it might have been in Tolkien’s mind before 1955, is less likely to have been incorporated into the idea of the text; and it was almost certainly not part of the original writing in the 1940s, especially when you compare it to “The Notion Club,” “The Fall of Númenor,” and “The Downfall of Anadûnê.”


 
If I read this right you are referring to incorporation of something into _The Lord of the Rings_. OK, but the reason I brought up the two round world forays was not to say _Lord of the Rings_ necessarily reflects Round World Mythology, but to point out that the idea appears earlier than text written 'late in life'. You had posted: _'Late in Tolkien’s life, I think I recall reading that he worked on some lines in which Arda was always round; but these are not the main line of the material.'_

Of course JRRT wasn't 25 years old in the 1940s for example, but still 



> Accepting the latest material would be the normal practice, I agree. (I am uncomfortable some writings from 1973 and possibly in 1972, a period during which Tolkien and his children noticed a decline in his acuity, especially in regards to the nature of Galadriel’s rebellion and departure to Middle-earth: the last tellings for this part of the legendarium simply do not fit with the rest, in my opinion.)


 
I agree, and this fits with my statement that relative lateness is not the only consideration of course. I believe I have posted here regarding the late 'unstained' Galadriel idea, and I don't take it as the official story myself.



> In this case, though, if you’re trying to discover the point of view that Tolkien used when he wrote (1) _LotR_, and (2) most of the material later edited and incorporated into _Silmarillion_, including _Akallabêth_ as published there, then you are looking at what I called his “main line” in my earlier post: what was published during or just after his lifetime.


 
OK, I think I better understand your approach now. The general intent behind my earlier post was simply to raise texts of whatever period, and yes especially later, to make the simpler point that the answer posted often enough (the world was _made_ round) is not necessarily _the_ answer. 



> There’s always disagreement about what is “canonical” and what is “apocryphal” is Tolkien’s voluminous work. I think what’s indisputable is that Tolkien sought to work with what he had published in _The Lord of the Rings_, even if later he was uncomfortable with it.


 
I agree in general, but I will also add the question: what is really in the published texts in the first place?

I think Tolkien-published texts are prime material (and actually, in my opinion, work published by JRRT himself is not being given enough weight,_ in some cases,_ by even some Tolkien scholars), but that's why I brought up a specific point that I find interesting: does the Reader who _only_ reads Tolkien-published text conclude that the Earth was once actually flat?



> *Galin*, I’m not disagreeing with you. I concur with you that Christopher Tolkien points out that his father was careful to take the position that these are stories passed down by Men, and that their original Elvish versions have been mangled along the way, except for the “transmission” of _The Lord of the Rings_.


 
OK. And I think that such comments on transmission are collectively notable, and essentially allow JRRT to 'explain' (not necessarily in any obvious way) ideas that were giving him problems later on. Of course the world cannot have been both once flat and always round (though actually I have read argument that raises two distinct pasts for Middle-earth -- but putting that aside for the moment), but _the texts_ can hold two views on the original shape of the world however. That said, if only one notion could be 'true', the stories or commentary of the Eldar (especially those instructed by the Valar) would arguably carry more weight (and we could add the Wise of Numenor). 

In one sense there's no real gain in emphasizing the point, because what is 'scientifically true' pales in comparison to other more important and more poetic considerations. But essentially (and within the context that my speculative varied legendarium was actually published), if one were forced to 'answer' one way or the other, Tolkien's mythology would then be presented in such a way that the transition from flat to round world was one of the mind, beautiful and intriguing in detail and general concept, but not one of reality, or at least suspect in that regard.



> I think the textual evidence strongly suggests that an “always round” Arda was not a significant consideration in Tolkien’s writing before 1955, so that a “flat Arda before the Downfall” prevails in _The Lord of the Rings_, but is not important in the story.


 
Tom Bombadil's commentary (his 'bent seas' reference that I raised above, for example) certainly seems to reflect this anyway. Moreover, the textual history of Ainulindale suggests that Katherine Farrer's opinion had some influence on Tolkien (suggested by CJRT in MR), and she liked Flat Earth versions best.



> I just think that is one time that we have to be very careful using the last material to make sense of what’s in _The Lord of the Rings_ and, to a lesser extent, _The Silmarillion_. I agree with you that the accepted practice is to use the later material: but if you do, I think you’ll lose a lot of the power and depth of the stories. If you disagree, and you think that the stories are better dispensing with this silly “Mannish” notion of a “flat” earth, I don’t have a reason to argue with you.


 
But I don't know that I'm giving my opinion about which is the better or richer mythology in any case, but rather, whether Readers like it or not, a flat earth mythology was in some measure of jeopardy, at least in jeopardy of being characterized as 'wrong' despite its merits. I think Tolkien's seeming emphasis on Mannish transmission is an effort to _retain_ earlier notions, although I think it's arguable he intended to make his 'final' legendarium more diverse. Noting again a statement like this: 'The cosmogonic myths are Númenórean, blending Elven-lore with human myth and imagination. A note should say that the Wise of Númenor recorded that the making of stars was not so, nor of Sun and Moon. (...)'

Now I guess some Readers might not want to read such a 'note', and maybe Tolkien was going to think better of including something so specific (if anything). But what if, for an alternate route, the legendarium simply leads one to a comparison of various traditions: in some works the Sun is the flower of a tree, in others the Sun exists before the Elves awake (the text _The Awakening of the Quendi_ for example). This makes perfect sense in a collection of tales and legends from various authors (of different race). No internal author necessarily needs to comment specifically on all differences (or at least no internal ancient author), and each tradition has its own specific beauty to offer.

Anyway, I don't think we necessarily disagree *Alcuin,* but rather have approached the thread somewhat differently (which is good to my mind).


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## Ingolmin (Dec 11, 2016)

Hello everybody. I am Ingolmin, heir of Elrond Halfelven. I am a young loremaster and will surely clear your doubts.
Middle Earth was flat till the Downfall of Numenore which happened approximately in 3300 of the Second Age.
After that Middle Earth became round.
I have proper evidence to say that Middle Earth was flat before the downfall of Westernesse as it is mentioned in the Silmarillion that the the farsighted men could see afar Aman which would not have been possible if the Middle Earth was flat. There are many other facts given in the Annals of Arda(not a book) which imply that Middle Earth was flat. Tolkien was absolutely correct.
Also, Middle Earth and our own EARTH are different. The beginning of our planet is still a mystery to all of us. If you believe yourself a loremaster RangerStryder than you should know that Moon was not a satellite in Middle Earth. It was an angelic being who did not revolve around the middle Earth as our moon does.

Thank You.


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