# orc lifespan



## Durins Bane (Jun 3, 2004)

I'm just curious if anyone knows how long orcs can live.


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## Gamil Zirak (Jun 3, 2004)

Good question. Shall we ask one?

We never hear any tales of an old orc or an orc dying of old age. Most of them get killed in battle before they get that close to dying I guess. We also here the stories from the good guys side as opossed to the badies.

If you think Orcs were made from elves, then it's conceivable that they do not die of old age.

If you think Orcs were made from men, then they would live into their 100's if they stayed out of skirmishes.


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## Thuringwethil (Jun 4, 2004)

Azog died 2799 in Nanduhirion. His son Bolg died 2941 in Dale. This gives Bolg an absolute minimum age of 142. He seems like a competent fighter and commander at the time. To me the "elf-origin" looks more believeable. So my take is orcs are "immortal" when it comes to age and disease, but their lifestyle cuts most of them down earlier than average men. To an orc the "natural causes" mean something very violent...


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## Snaga (Jun 4, 2004)

Gamil Zirak said:


> Good question. Shall we ask one?


Then I shall answer!

Thuringethil provides the only direct evidence available but, I think, reasons incorrectly from it. The presence of elf-genes might be implied from orcish longevity (although most orcs I know wouldn't countenance the idea) but this is not necessarily true, nor should it imply immortality.

Dwarves from example, fashioned by Aule to be tough and enduring, also live to great ages. Could not Melkor, greater in lore than Aule, create tough and enduring beings? He did not work in the same manner since he bred and distorted, rather than creating and having Eru give them life, but nonetheless it is not impossible to breed for longevity. So elvish origins are not certain.

But even if we assume elvishness in orcish stock, this certainly doesn't imply immortality. After all, the line of Elros has elvish genes, but is not immortal. Someone else can give you the Arda theology on this, but I don't think Melkor could breed an immortal race. Sorry, I don't have time to do the research to prove that idea.


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## Confusticated (Jun 4, 2004)

If you can get hold of it, read _Orcs_ in History of Middle-earth vol 10. Tolkien wrote down some of his ideas about the origin and nature of Orcs.

At one point Tolkien asks himself is orcs are immortal in the Elvish sense. I guess he hadn't entirely ruled out the possablity at the time he was writing about it. But the origin of orcs was in question at the time. 

At one point he says Orcs could be a mix of elves and beasts or men. At this point he goes on to say their lifespan is dimminished. It seems Tolkien was thinking their span would be diminished because of breeding with mortals, and therefore Orcs of pure elf origin could be immortal? Anyhow, you'd have to read the essay and decide for yourself.

Personally, I do not think they are immortal. I like to go with the idea that some of the greater orcs were Maiar in origin while most were curruptions of elves and men. 

I also doubt orcs with purely elvish origin would be immortal, since slow aging of the elves depends upon a nice relationship between body and spirit. Body being nourished and controlled by the spirit. Read about this in HoME 10 also. 

Any creatures of Morgoth would have their body dragged down by their spirit I believe, and Tolkien says as much at one point. But what cannot be denied is that spirit as well as genetics if not more so, plays a part in immortality.That is, if the being even has a spirit. Personally I never doubt that orcs do.


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## Thuringwethil (Jun 5, 2004)

Snaga said:


> Thuringwethil provides the only direct evidence available but, I think, reasons incorrectly from it.



Excuse me, but I don't "reason" here, I know about logic enough not to apply it falsely. Plus, like in many cases concerning Middle-Earth, there is no canon. Tolkien had various versions about orc origin, and we have no way to know which was "the correct". We can guess, but we will never know. His work will remain unfinished (unless someone knows a competent spiritualist or necromancer).  

Thus, I'm not reasoning, just choosing the version most appealing to me; an integration of Tolkien's imagination and my own, if you like. I'm not selling it as a fundamental truth.



> But even if we assume elvishness in orcish stock, this certainly doesn't imply immortality. After all, the line of Elros has elvish genes, but is not immortal. Someone else can give you the Arda theology on this, but I don't think Melkor could breed an immortal race.



Well.. Dragons are supposed to be Melko's creatures, and appear immortal. Line of Elros has human genes, but original orcs propably not (assuming orcs were bred before humans appeared). And no, I can't "prove" my point by this, but it doesn't work other way around either. Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence, or presence, or anything else. One can very well argue that orcs lost their "immortality gene" during Melko's experiments, or that immortality isn't in genes at all, but something magical or such, and thus lost. I can't nor won't nullify that point, but there isn't enough evidence to prove it either. We don't know if orc ancestors were maiar, elves, men or beasts. We can only choose our liking.

This is not meant to extinguish debate, but I'd like to see less "one and only truths(tm)". I like more the "this is how I picture it" -mentality.


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## Ithrynluin (Jun 5, 2004)

Gamil Zirak said:


> If you think Orcs were made from elves, then it's conceivable that they do not die of old age.
> 
> If you think Orcs were made from men, then they would live into their 100's if they stayed out of skirmishes.


I think it's relatively safe to assume that Eru is the one who provides the souls for his children. Therefore, would Eru provide souls for Orcs? I don't think so. I think that only the first generation Orcs (those that came to be from mutilated Elves/Men/beasts or inbreeding with corrupt Maiar even) had souls (_fëar) _proper, and the rest of the Orcdom onward were just comparatively intelligent 'humanoid beasts' (no offense, Snaga )



Thuringwethil said:


> Azog died 2799 in Nanduhirion. His son Bolg died 2941 in Dale. This gives Bolg an absolute minimum age of 142. He seems like a competent fighter and commander at the time. To me the "elf-origin" looks more believeable. So my take is orcs are "immortal" when it comes to age and disease, but their lifestyle cuts most of them down earlier than average men. To an orc the "natural causes" mean something very violent...


That is a good observation, but I doubt your claim that Orcs are immortal is a correct one. Melkor corrupting Eru's children into Orcs was 'sin' enough against Eru. I really doubt Eru would have allowed whole generations of Orcs to go on being immortal and mock his own creations (the Elves) in this way. It may be that Orcs lived generally longer than the so called 'middle Men', or it may be that only _some _more 'eminent' individuals or families, deriving from more noble origins such as High Elves or Maiar, had longer life.
As for disease, remember how Uglúk smears Merry's wound with some 'dark stuff' from a wooden box, which I suspect is some kind of remedy, so I would say they _are_ susceptible to disease, though this is no definite proof of course.



Thuringwethil said:


> Well.. Dragons are supposed to be Melko's creatures, and appear immortal.


I think it's better to put it that dragons were 'longevous', just as the Elves were, and Melkor couldn't 'even' create creatures from scratch (he had to take something that was in existence already and spoil/modify/corrupt it), let alone spawn immortal ones.



Thuringwethil said:


> (assuming orcs were bred before humans appeared).


According to the _HoME _books, it was Tolkien's later view that Men awoke shortly after the Elves.


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## Snaga (Jun 6, 2004)

Thuringethil, I'm sorry. I mean't no offense. You are of course entitled to your opinion. Having said that, I didn't present anything I said as a 'one and only truth'.

On the subject of dragons, I don't see them as immortal. Smaug to me seems to be going through an aging process.



Gorthaur said:


> I think it's relatively safe to assume that Eru is the one who provides the souls for his children. Therefore, would Eru provide souls for Orcs? I don't think so. I think that only the first generation Orcs (those that came to be from mutilated Elves/Men/beasts or inbreeding with corrupt Maiar even) had souls (_fëar) _proper, and the rest of the Orcdom onward were just comparatively intelligent 'humanoid beasts' (no offense, Snaga )


Offence? There is no offence! I agree that we orcs are intelligent, especially in comparison to you humans!

Why is it safe to assume that Eru 'provides the souls' for his children in the way that you state it? I find it a strange idea that one generation could have souls but not the next generation.


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## Ithrynluin (Jun 6, 2004)

Snaga said:


> Why is it safe to assume that Eru 'provides the souls' for his children in the way that you state it? I find it a strange idea that one generation could have souls but not the next generation.


It is indeed a strange idea! I think Eru is involved in Arda himself, and it is from him that the souls for his children proceed, isn't it? I just considered it somewhat unimaginable that Eru would keep punchin' out souls for creatures which were created in clear mockery of Him and His Children.
But look at this example: What if a corrupt Maia mated with a beast to produce a new kind of Orks. Now the Maia obviously has a a soul, but the beast does not. Would their offspring have a soul as well, or would it simply be an 'enhanced' beast (having inherited some of the Maia's powers, like greater physical endurance and strength, greater commanding stature over other Orks...etc.) without actually having a soul. I tend to lean towards the second, but hey! that's just me.



Snaga said:


> Offence? There is no offence! I agree that we orcs are intelligent, especially in comparison to you humans!


Woah, hold yer horses there. You must mean _them _humans!  But actually, if you look back on this thread, there are no humans participating here!


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