# Are the wood-elfs of Lothlorien of the same elven race as the elves of the Mirkwood?



## cab345 (Jan 29, 2003)

And if so, what race is it?


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## Ghan-buri-ghan (Jan 29, 2003)

Well, the mirkwood elves were sylvan elves. On the other hand Galadriel was one of the Noldor, a completely different elvish race. I'm not sure what race Celeborn belonged to. Was he Noldor too? dunno.

If Celeborn was Noldor, you'd think the subjects of Celeborn and Galadriel would be the last remnants the Noldor in Middle Earth. The Noldor once inhabited places like Eregion (although it is mentioned in FotR that the inhabitants of Eregion went West long ago, surely some remained.)

So I guess I'd say, always subject to someone else's close research, that if Celeborn were Noldor, it is likely that the elves of Mirkwood (sylvan elves) were different than the inhabitants of Lothlorien (Noldor.)


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## cab345 (Jan 29, 2003)

Wich woodelves are stronger do you think? And in wich book are the sylvan elves mentioned?


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## FoolOfATook (Jan 29, 2003)

As an aid to those attempting to use the various inidices, I will humbly correct the spelling of Sylvan- it's Silvan. I'm going to let someone who has spent more time studying the Elves give a full answer, but I will say that the Silvan Elves, or Woodland Elves were a branch of the Nandor Elves, which were a branch of the Teleri Elves, which was a branch of the Eldar.


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## Ithrynluin (Jan 29, 2003)

Yes, Mirkwood and Lórien are populated pretty much by the same kind of Elves - The Silvan Elves. Only the rulers of these lands are of a different kind:
Thranduil - Sindarin Elf (Grey Elf)
Galadriel - Noldorin (though she is only 1/4 of a Noldo)
Celeborn - Sindarin, there are two versions of his origins, but the far more believable one is that he was an Elf of Doriath, and a kinsman of Thingol Greycloak.

I would say that the Lórien Elves were more powerful (for example, their bows are bigger and better than those of the Mirkwood Elves ) due to the overlordship of Galadriel and their faith in her power to protect Lórien.


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## Grond (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *Yes, Mirkwood and Lórien are populated pretty much by the same kind of Elves - The Silvan Elves. Only the rulers of these lands are of a different kind:
> Thranduil - Sindarin Elf (Grey Elf)
> Galadriel - Noldorin (though she is only 1/4 of a Noldo)
> ...


 I agree to a degree but beg to differ to a degree. The Elf races were primarily determined by their father's heritage. Both Fingolfin and Finarfin would have told you they were both 100% Noldorin even though their mother was a Vanyar elf. In reality, of the sons of Finwe, only Feanor bore 100% Noldorin blood in his veins. 

My point is that Galadriel was a Noldo. She was raised in the House of Finwe and of her father Finarfin. Her ambition was much more based in the Noldoran stubborness and quest for power and reign. She sufferred the same fate as her outcast kin because of her part in the Rebellion of the Noldor. She, like her uncles, brothers and cousins sufferred the same cursed fate as all of that people who left Valinor. She was under the ban until her part in the War of the Ring earned her passage back to her homeland. 

I agree that the Lorien elves weapons were more powerful as both Galadriel and the remnants of Noldor with her as well as her husband Celebeorn were extremely skilled in making weapons of war. The making and forging of weapons was a skill surpassed only by the Dwarves of Belegost. Her Silvan Elves would have been better equipped for battle both in gear, armour and weaponry that would Thranduil. But... we shouldn't forget that the King Under the Mountain and the Elves of Mirkwood did reestablish some friendship and trade and it is likely that the Silvan Elves of Mirkwood were supplied weaponry and armour by the Dwarves. 

Okay... let's summarize.  The Elves of Mirkwood and Lorien were largely Silvan Elves who never went Westward to the vales of Beleriand, nor did they ever seek to cross the sea. Most of the Silvan Elves were of Teleri origin but forsook the journey and settled in the area of Anduin and then migrated North and South. For some reason, after the fall of King Elu Thingol, the Silvan's welcomed the Sindar/Teleri as their kings and lords. (Probably because the Silvan were originally Teleri in the first place.) Whew.... Did that make any sense? I haven't answered one of these in a month or so.


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## aragil (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *Celeborn - Sindarin, there are two versions of his origins, but the far more believable one is that he was an Elf of Doriath, and a kinsman of Thingol Greycloak.*


 I'm perfectly happy accepting him as a Teleri and a descendant of Olwe (obviously still related to Elwe), and that he came over with Galadriel. That's just me, though.

Grond- I think being half-Teleri was a huge influence on Galadriel- depending on which story you believe she showed herself to be very different than Feanor and followers. I would say that Finarfin and Finrod didn't behave as proper Noldor either, probably due to the Vanyar strain in them.


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## Ithrynluin (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Grond _
> *My point is that Galadriel was a Noldo. She was raised in the House of Finwe and of her father Finarfin. Her ambition was much more based in the Noldoran stubborness and quest for power and reign. She sufferred the same fate as her outcast kin because of her part in the Rebellion of the Noldor. She, like her uncles, brothers and cousins sufferred the same cursed fate as all of that people who left Valinor. She was under the ban until her part in the War of the Ring earned her passage back to her homeland. *



In my post, I did "define" Galadriel as Noldorin. I only wanted to point out that she has other blood in her, which influences her personality greatly. A person may declare that he/she belongs to a certain nationality, but if they are of mixed race/nationality... their personalities are bound to have characteristics of all these "bloodlines". This sounds too complicated, but please bear with me.

From _The Unfinished Tales; The History of Galadriel and Celeborn_:



> She was proud, strong, and selfwilled, as were all the descendants of Finwë save Finarfin; and like her brother Finrod, of all her kin the nearest to her heart, she had dreams of far lands and dominions that might be her own to order as she would without tutelage.



Indeed, these are pure Noldorin characteristics. Furthermore, she was raised in a Noldorin culture.



> Yet deeper still there dwelt in her the noble and generous spirit of the Vanyar, and a reverence for the Valar that she could not forget.



This points to her Vanyarin heritage. Note how this is worded - "Yet DEEPER still...". This implies that, though she made many choices typical of a Noldo, she was still more of a Vanyarin Elf in spirit.



> ...and she went for a while to dwell with her mother's kindred in Alqualondë.





> In Fëanor's revolt that followed the Darkening of Valinor Galadriel had no part: indeeed she with Celeborn fought heroically in defence of Alqualondë against the assault of the Noldor, and Celeborn's ship was saved from them.



Here Galadriel clearly shows a sense of belonging to the Teleri.
She dwelt for a long time among the Teleri of Alqualondë and in Doriath. I daresay the Telerin part of herself drove her to do that, and be among "her people".

I am of course not saying that she is not considered a Noldo, because Tolkien himself states so (Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, etc...). I am simply trying to illustrate the various layers of her persona.


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## Ithrynluin (Jan 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by aragil _
> *I'm perfectly happy accepting him as a Teleri and a descendant of Olwe (obviously still related to Elwe), and that he came over with Galadriel. That's just me, though.*



If that is the case, then both Galadriel and Celeborn are grandchildren of Olwë. Their union would then be a bit too "incest-ish" IMO. That is why I accept the other version more readily. Also, In LOTR, Galadriel says that Celeborn has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn...another thing that makes me look at him as an Elf of Doriath, not of Alqualondë.



> Grond- I think being half-Teleri was a huge influence on Galadriel- depending on which story you believe she showed herself to be very different than Feanor and followers. I would say that Finarfin and Finrod didn't behave as proper Noldor either, probably due to the Vanyar strain in them.



aragil, I am glad that someone shares this opinion with me!


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## Tar-Elenion (Jan 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by aragil _
> I'm perfectly happy accepting him as a Teleri and a descendant of Olwe (obviously still related to Elwe), and that he came over with Galadriel. That's just me, though.



Then Celeborn and Galadriel would be first cousins and the Eldar did not wed with such close kin.
Also Celeborn is said to be "one of the Sindar" in RGEO which JRRT published some years before his death.


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## jallan (Jan 30, 2003)

There is not much point in arguing this.

Tolkien had one idea when he wrote _The Lord of the Rings_ and different ideas later.

The latest concept, that Celeborn was a Teleri, one would normally be inclined to accept, if it were not that this is part of a rewriting of the Departure of the Noldor and their coming to Middle-earth which he never completed, one in which Celeborn and Galadriel and three Teleri crossed in a boat separately from the other returning Eldar.

The changes in that thread would necessitate changes in previously written material, for example, that it was a long time before Thingol learned of the true reason for the return of the Noldor. 

Some narrative depends on that, but it is diffcult to see that Galadriel and Celeborn would have hidden the matter of Alqualondë. Perhaps they did, but we need to the reason whey they would do so.

That Celeborn and Galadriel become too close akin is another problem. 

Tolkien might have overlooked that in error. But he might also have decided against his previous dictum that Elves did not wed those who were so close akin.

Some features of Tolkien's legendarium never changed, some changed greatly, and some, at least in what Tolkien wrote, never achieved a coherent shape.


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## Grond (Feb 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jallan _
> *There is not much point in arguing this.
> 
> Tolkien had one idea when he wrote The Lord of the Rings and different ideas later.
> ...


 Tolkien's earliest writings had Celeborn as an elf of Doriath. This explains his dislike/distrust of Dwarves and also allows him to not be a "kissing cousin". It is only after Tolkien began to "distress" over Galadriel's lack of action taken to protect her mother's kin at the Kinslaying that we see a different Gladriel and Elrond fighting on the side of the Teleri in Aqualonde.


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## jallan (Feb 2, 2003)

Grond posted:


> Tolkien's earliest writings had Celeborn as an elf of Doriath.


From _The Treason of Isengard_ (HoME 7), chapter XIII, "Galadriel":


> The lord and lady of Lothlórien are accounted wise beyond the measure of all who have not passed beyond the Seas. For we have dwelt here since the Mountains were reared and the Sun was young.¹²
> 
> 12 The phrases ‘The lord and lady of Lothlórien are accounted wise _beyond the measure of the Elves of Middle-earth_’ and ‘For we have dwelt here _since the Mountains were reared and the Sun was young_’ strongly suggest that my father conceived them to be Elves of Valinor, exiled Noldor who did not return at the end of the First Age. The Noldor came to Middle-earth in exile at the time of the making of the Sun and Hiding of Valinor, when the Mountains of the West were ‘raised to sheer and dreadful height’ (V.242).


The same account appears in a later manuscript and Christopher Tolkien notes concerning it in Note 31:


> An addition to the manuscript after the words ‘For we have dwelt here since the mountains were reared and the sun was young’ reads: ‘And I have dwelt here with him since the days of dawn, when I passed over the seas with Melian of Valinor; and ever together we have fought the long defeat.’ This was not take up into the following typescript text (p. 260), though it was entered onto it in manuscript, and no doubt belongs to a later time.


Here it seems that Celeborn is an Elf of Middle-earth and Galadriel probably a Maia in the train of Melian.

In the published _Fellowship of the Rings_, all editions, in “The Mirror of Galadriel”, Galadriel says of Celeborn:


> He has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him years uncounted; for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat.


This also seems to picture Celeborn as dwelling in Lothlórien before Galadriel.

This is confirmed in _Sauron Defeated_, (HoME 9), “The Epilogue”, Sam says of “Keleborn”:


> The Lady came to his land and now she is gone; and he has the land still.


This is apparently the reference to which Christopher Tolkien refers in _Unfinished Tales_ “The History of Galadriel and Celeborn”:


> Thus, at the outset, it is certain that the earlier conception was that Galadriel went eest of the mountains from Beleriand alone, before the end of the First Age, and met Celeborn in his own land of Lórien; this is explicitly stated in unpublished writing, and the same idea undierlies Galadriel’s words to Frodo ....


This is followed by the quotation I provided earlier beginning “He has dwelt in the West ...” Christopher Tolkien then continues:


> In all probability Celeborn was in this conception a Nandorin Elf (that is, one of the Teleri who refused to cross the Misty Mountains on the Great Journey to Cuiviénen),


The story that Celeborn was a kinsman of Thingol of Doriath, and dwelt in Doriath, first emerges, it seems, in 1959. From _The War of the Jewels_ (HoME 11), “The Tale of Years”, in his treatment of stage ‘*D*’, Christopher Tolkien notes:


> The name _Nimloth_ was adopted in the published _Silmarillion_ (see p. 234, where she is said to be ‘kinswomen of Celeborn’) on account of its appearance in the series of Elvish genealogies which can be dated to December 1959 (p. 229). This table gives the descendants of Elwë (Thingol) and of his younger brother Elmo, of whom it is said that he was ‘beloved of Elwë with whom he remained.’ On one side of the table (descent from Elwë) the wife of Dior Eluchil (Thingol’s heir) is Nimloth ‘sister of Celeborn’. Similarly on the other side, Elmo’s son is Galaðon, and Galaðon has two sons, Galathil and Celeborn ‘prince of Doriath’, and a daughter Nimloth, wife of Dior Eluchil. But on the same table Nimloth wife of Dior also appears at the daughter of Galathil (thus in the first case she was the second cousin of Dior, and in the latter the third cousin of Elwing). It is clear from rough pencillings on this page that my father was uncertain about this, and it looks as if Nimloth as niece of Celeborn was his second thought. I referred to this genealogy in _Unfinished Tales_, p. 233, but did not mention the alternative placing of Nimloth as Celeborn’s sister.


The note in Appendix B claiming the Celeborn was “kinsman of Thingol”, was only added among other revisions to _The Lord of the Rings_ in 1965.


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## Grond (Feb 2, 2003)

I really have no desire to get in an argument over this issue as we both have basically the same idea. I was basing my facts on Christopher Tolkien's own note from Unfinished Tales cited here.


> _from Unfinished Tales, IV - THE HISTORY OF
> GALADRIEL AND CELEBORN and of Amroth King of Lórien_
> There is no part of the history of Middle-earth more full of problems than the story of Galadriel and Celeborn, and it must be admitted that there are severe inconsistencies "embedded in the traditions"; or, to look at the matter from another point of view, that the role and importance of Galadriel only emerged slowly, and that her story underwent continual refashionings.
> 
> ...


I took *"at the outset"* to mean his father's earliest conception. It really matters not whether the chicken came first, or the egg. The history of Celeborn and his origins are still clouded. The one that makes the most sense to me is that he was an elf of Doriath. If other explanations work for you, I can understand.


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