# The Balrogs Fighting Galadriel And Elrond?



## John (Aug 9, 2021)

Could Galadriel Or Elrond Have Killed Durin's Bane like Gandalf Did Had They Joined The Fellowship Of The Ring? If Yes Why? If Not Why?


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## Goldilocks Gamgee (Aug 9, 2021)

For one, there is no way they would have joined the Fellowship. But if they had to face off with this Balrog I think they would have conquered and died in the process, just as Gandalf did. The only thing is, they wouldn't have come back so quickly.


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## John (Aug 9, 2021)

Goldilocks Gamgee said:


> For one, there is no way they would have joined the Fellowship. But if they had to face off with this Balrog I think they would have conquered and died in the process, just as Gandalf did. The only thing is, they wouldn't have come back so quickly.


oh Yeah? what would have happed to them then instead of coming Back Fast Like Gandalf?


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## Goldilocks Gamgee (Aug 9, 2021)

They would have stayed in the Halls of Mandos, of course.


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## Elthir (Aug 9, 2021)

No way Galadriel loses to a Balrog 
(named Kosomoko)!

_Then fair Naltariel sang:_
_the lakes rippled, the earth shook
the copper mountains trembled
the sturdy boulders rumbled
the cliffs flew in two
( . . . )

she sang him, Kosomoko
in a swamp up to his waist
in a meadow to his groin_
_in the heath to his armpits._

From the New Kalevala,
III, The Singing Match


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## 1stvermont (Aug 9, 2021)

John said:


> Could Galadriel Or Elrond Have Killed Durin's Bane like Gandalf Did Had They Joined The Fellowship Of The Ring? If Yes Why? If Not Why?



Galadriel vs balrog is a great match. I believe at the time of the ring Galadriel was the most powerful elf to ever walk middle-earth. 


*Galadriel was Most Powerful Elf to Walk Middle-earth *

At the time of the war of the ring, there remained multiple great elf lord's in Middle-earth. In Rivendell, for example, dwelt the very wise and keeper of the ring of Sapphire, Master Elrond Lord of Rivendell, and the great elf warrior captain Glorfindel. Gandalf says, "here in Rivendell live still some of his [Sauron] chief foes, the elven –wise, Lords of the Eldar from beyond the sea." He says of Glorfindel, "one of the mighty of the firstborn. He is an elf Lord of a house of Princes." Glorfindel was a warrior prince in the Eldar days who won renown, especially for killing a Balrog, but he became even more powerful in the third age. 

_"Long years he [Glorfindel] remained in Valinor, in reunion with the Eldar who had not rebelled, and in the companionship of the Maiar. To these, he had now become almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate (to whom a bodily form not made or chosen by himself was necessary) his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by his self-sacrifice".
-The Peoples of Middle-Earth The Last Writings Glorfindel HarperCollins Publishers 2015 _

Elrond was part Maiar, and Glorfindel had become equal to one, yet other great lords still dwelt in Middle-earth, such as Cirdan the Shipwright Lord of the Grey Havens, and the wise Lord Celeborn were both surviving Lords of the Noldor elves. But none could equal Galadriel. 

_"Lady Galadriel....was of the Noldor and remembered the day before days in Valinor, and she was the mightiest and fairest of all the elves that remained in middle-earth."
-The Silmarillion Second Edition Houghton Mifflin Company Boston NY 2001 _

Jonathan Witt and Jay Richards in The Hobbit Party write "the wisest, fairest, and most powerful of the elves of Middle-earth, the Lady Galadriel." In letters 144, Tolkien wrote, "Galadriel...is the last remaining of the great among the high elves, and "awoke" in Eldomar beyond the sea." In flotsam and jetsam Aragorn named Galadriel as one of the three who would be safe left alone with the maiar Saruman. In letters 246, Tolkien suggested Galadriel would have been able to face Sauron alone if she had his ring. If she had the ring, we are told in Lothlorien; she would become "dreadful as the storm and the lightning stronger than the foundations of the earth." 

Galadriel had the authority and wisdom to gather the white council made of leading elves and wizards. In Tolkien's World from A to Z, Robert Foster writes the "council of the wise formed at the summons of Galadriel to plan the strategy to be used against Sauron." It was also Galadriel who desired Gandalf to lead it, not Saruman. She was the most powerful elf in the third age and the most powerful free peoples individual in the second age. In Appendix B of The Lord of the Rings, Galadriel, Cirdan the Shipwright, and Gil-Galad are named the second age's three most powerful Noldor elves. But Sauron reorganized her as the most powerful of all the free peoples and his main threat. In concerning Galadriel and Celeborn, we read Sauron "perceived at once that Galadriel would be his chief adversary and obstacle." So she was the most powerful elf in the third age, and in the second age, she was the most powerful of all the free peoples, or at least Sauron thought so. 

It was not the two who gave battle in hand-to-hand combat that were able to kill Sauron such as the last great High King of the Noldor Gil-Galad, nor Elendil, Isildur's father Aragorn's ancestor and first high King of both Arnor and Gondor. The great King of men, Isildur, realized his mistake by keeping the ring and its immense power in Gladden Fields' battle, saying, "it [the ring] needs one greater than I... it should go to the keepers of the three." He does not say the ring should have gone to Galadriel but that the keepers of the ring were more powerful than he was; she was, of course, among them. 

An example of just how powerful Galadriel was comes from the account of Eorl, who rode with 7,300 riders south to help save Gondor. During their ride, Galadriel pushed back the power of nearby Dol Guldor, concealed the entire army, and regenerated its men while moving them at speeds they could not have done themselves. It is no wonder the later descendants of Eorl [Rohan] and Gondor would learn to fear the power of the Lady of the golden wood as Eomer had.

_"Eorl turned away westward for fear of the dark shadow, and cloud that flowed out from it...to their dismay the mist [from Dol Guldur] passed over the river and flowed over the land before them… as they drew nearer they saw the white mist was driving back the gloom's of Dol Guldur, under its [Galadriels] canopy...left and right were guarded as it were by white walls of secrecy, "the lady of the golden wood is on our side," said Borondir... then Felarof sprang forward, and all the host behind followed like a great wind, but in strange silence, as if their hooves did not beat upon the ground, so they rode on fresh and eager as on the morning of their departure of their setting out... suddenly the mist was gone... they came there at speed beyond hope."
-Unfinished Tales Cirion and Eorl of Numenor and Middle-Earth the Istari Ballantine Books NY 1988_

*Galadriel's Power- Great Teachers*

_"Now the Noldor took delight in all lore and crafts, and Aule and his folk came often among them. Yet such skill had Iluvatar granted to them that in many matters...they soon surpassed their teachers...and all the Valar were enriched by their labors."
-Morgoth's Ring Annals of Ammon Section 4 Harpercollins Publishers 1993_

Galadriel was born in Valinor during the years of the trees before the first age began. The only daughter of Finarfin, High King of the Noldor in Valinor and niece of Feanor, who was also a high king of the Noldor. Unfinished Tales describes Galadriel as "being brilliant in mind she had early observed all of what she was capable of the teachings which the Valar thought fit to give the Eldar." In Valinor, the Noldor elves "thirst for more knowledge, and in many things surpassed their teachers," the Valar. Thus some of the elves like Galadriel advanced past the Valar in various crafts.

The Valar Yavanna taught Lady Galadriel and Aule [creator of dwarves]. Yavanna would give as a gift to Galadriel the elf stone. Later, when Galadriel lived in Middle-earth, she became close friends with Melian, the Maia learning from her. As we read in The Later Silmarillion the war of the Jewels, "Galadriel...remained long in Doriath...there learned great lore and wisdom concerning Middle-earth." And "Galadriel remained long with Melian, for there was much love between them." Melian also learned from Galadriel, such as the events that took place in Aman.

Galadriel later lived for a time in the place of lore in Rivendell with Master Elrond, and she was also a member of the council of the wise, having another source of excellent knowledge of the events in Middle-earth. Further, Elves were not idle but grew in wisdom over time. So we read in Unfinished Tales, "the silvan elves... increased in wisdom." In Morgoth's Ring, it reads, "the Eldar became full-grown in stature of body and of mind, and the Noldor advanced even in skill and knowledge." And so it was with Galadriel who would not reach her summit of wisdom, till the third age as we read again in Unfinished Tales "It was not until two long ages more had passed... that her wisdom was full grown."

_"Elves went and lived for ages, and grew fairer and wiser and more learned and invented their magic and their cunning craft."
-The Hobbit Flies and Spiders Houghton Mifflin Company Boston 1997_

They also advanced physically over time and trials. In Morgoth's Ring Laws and Customs of the Eldar, it reads, "Indeed in their earlier days death came more readily; for their bodies were the less different from the bodies of men, and the command of their spirits over their bodies less complete." And in the Annals of Ammon section 5, "their [elves] valor and endurance grew greater with hardship...led by Fingolfin and his sons, and by Inglor and Galadriel the valiant and fair." 

Part of what made the elves so powerful was that they lived long life spans and grew in knowledge—over time, power and knowledge increased. Think of how much a man can learn in his life and how much more so elves who do not die naturally. While the first age Noldor elves were a more powerful force in Middle-earth due to numbers, they seemed weaker than the third age elves. 

Many times men rose high in elf kingdoms and in warfare were better fighters than elves. For example, in the elven realm of Nargothrond Turin was the greatest warrior as all others fled or were killed in defense of the city. Turin did the most damage and stood out. Beren and Hurin are a couple of more examples of men who did great deeds. Men were more alike elves in the Eldar days. In the Grey Annuls, we read, "the people of Hador [men] were yet greater [than the Eldar] strength and stature, mighty men, the children of Eru."

The dwarves of Nogrod defeated the mighty kingdom of elves of Doriath, captured their city and Nauglamir. The "Naugrim passed unhindered into the woods of Doriath, and none withstood them for they were many and fierce and the captains of the Grey elves were cast into doubt and despair." In the fifth battle, the men of Dor-Lomin and the dwarves of Belegost won renown as the last to stand firm rather than the Noldor who fled. In the first age, elves were usually not well armed and lost to orcs as a result. In the Grey Annuls in The war of the Jewels, we read, "the elves of Ossiriand were light-armed, and no match for the orcs who were shod with iron and iron shielded and bore great spears with broad blades." 

In the second age, Sauron has his way with the Eldar, sacking Eregion of the Noldor, holding at bay Elrond, and advancing toward the Grey Havens. It was only a force of the men of Númenor, sent by Tar-Minastir, that turned the tide. The Eldar fled the Numonrians in Aman, Tuna, and on the coast of Valinor when they were assaulted. Elves of the first age often had dwarves craft fabulous jewels, weapons and build cities for the elves due to their remarkable abilities. For example, the dark elf Maeglin improved at the height of its power the tremendous Noldor city of Gondolin's weaponry as dwarves taught him.

*Natural Gifts*

_"Galadriel was born in the bliss of Valinor....from her earliest years she had a marvelous gift of insight into the minds of others."
-Unfinished Tales of Numenor and Middle-Earth the Istari Ballantine Books NY 1988

"In dire straits or desperate defense, the nissi [elf woman] fought valiantly and there was less difference in strength and speed between elf men and elven women."
-Morgoth's Ring Laws and Customs Among the Eldar Harpercollins Publishers 1993_

We read in Unfinished Tales that Galadriel "grew tall beyond measure even of the woman of the Noldor; she was strong in body, mind, and will." Physically and in battle, she was powerful. She was known as Nerwen or "man maiden." In the Eldar days, she "fought fiercely against Fenor in defense of her Mother's kin," and she was one of the Noldor leaders who led the house of Fingolfin to Middle-earth over the dangerous mountain pass. 

She had an unmatched ability of insight. She reads the hearts and minds of the fellowship while they are in Lorien. She can even read Sauron's mind while she prevents him from seeing hers. She tells Frodo, "I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind or all of his mind that concerns the elves. And he gropes ever to see me and my thoughts. But still, the door is closed." Even the Maiar Saruman, by use of the Palantir ", was ensnared by that dark spirit mightier than he" while Galadriel could resist Sauron and stop him from influencing and seeing into her mind.

*Nenya Elven Ring of Power*

Not only did Galadriel increase in knowledge in power as any elf would over time, but in the third age, she was the holder of the elf ring of adamant Nenya, increasing her power significantly. So much attention is given to the power of the one ring, still, in letters, 131 Tolkien tells us the three elven rings were also very powerful. Their "chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay. But they also enhanced the natural powers of a possessor...The Elves of Eregion made Three supremely beautiful and powerful rings." Nenya was not as powerful as the one ring, of course, but the elven rings were the most powerful of all of the other rings made. The elven rings all enhanced the power of the holder's natural abilities and gifted them the power of slowing decay. In this way, we see how Lorien and only Lorien, was without stain and unaffected by decay because of Galadriel and her ring's incredible power. These three great rings were the culmination of ages of increased knowledge and wisdom in crafts [that surpassed the Valar] in making the rings of power. 

_"Three Rings of the Elves, wielded by secret guardians, are operative in preserving the memory of the beauty of old, maintaining enchanted enclaves of peace where Time seems to stand still and decay is restrained, a semblance of the bliss of the True West."
-J.R.R Tolkien Letters 131_

We get a glimpse of the power of her ring when Frodo sees Galadriel use it; Frodo saw "a great light that illuminated her alone and left all else dark. She stood before Frodo, seeming now tall beyond measurement, and beautiful beyond enduring, terrible and worshipful." The ringwraiths are described as Sauron's most powerful servants. They carry the nine rings of men, which have given them strength but to a lesser extent than the elf rings of power. The nine ringwraiths without the rings were just petty kings of men, but with the ring they are terribly powerful. If the nine rings of men can cause such a change in them, then how much more so the elven ring of Galadriel? And since Galadriel tells us "the rings have power according to the measure of each possessor," and since she was more powerful than they to begin with, and her ring more potent than there's, her power is indeed very significant. 

In fact, because of her ring's power, the Witch King with his ring would not even enter Lorien, yet he faced down Gandalf the White at Minas Tirith's gates. So we read in the Hunt for the Ring, "the power of the white ring [Galadriel's] he [witch king] would not defy, nor enter yet, into Lorien." Yet Gandalf admitted he feared the Nine, but Galadriel did not. 

_"The elf wise Lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the blessed realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the seen and unseen, they have great power."
-Gandalf Lord of the Rings Many Meetings Houghton Mifflin Company Boston NY 2012_

*Guardian of The Golden Wood and Craftsmanship*

_"Throughout the second and third ages Lorien remained safe from Sauron, For Galadriel's power was such that she knew his mind but hers was closed to him, and she could protect Lorien from assault by any power less than Sauron himself."
-Robert Foster the Complete Guide to Middle Earth Ballantine Books NY 1978 _

Galadriel's wisdom and power kept Lorien safe from Sauron and free from stain. In the elven realm, she maintains the original world of Middle-earth before the fall. Due to her power, Lorien was outside of Morgoth's ring. Her power was such that Frodo could "feel" the power of Galadriel when he entered Lorien. Sam said he felt like he was in a song. 

But she did not hide in the golden wood. She helped force Sauron out of Dol Guldur with the white council, sent Gwaihir to rescue Gandalf, gave him a new staff and white robes, coronating him as Gandalf the White. She helped defend Lorien against three assaults from Dol Guldur during the war of the ring, and after repulsing the attacks, an elven alliance with Thranduil of Mirkwood marched to Dol Guldur where Galadriel tore down its walls. Only one power in Middle-earth could overcome Galadriel. Not Saruman, not the Balrog, but Sauron alone. 

_ "Three times Lorien had been assailed….the power that dwelt there [Galadriel] was to great for any to overcome unless Sauron had come there himself.they took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bear its pits."
-Appendix B of The Lord of the Rings Houghton Mifflin Company Boston NY 2012_

As a great craftsman who surpassed the Valar and continued to improve, she created "the mirror of Galadriel" to see "things that were, and things that are, and things that yet may be" to further her knowledge of Middle-earth and counter moves by Sauron. She might have seen future events due to this creation [or her insight] like Aragorn commanding the army of the dead or when she saw that Legolas would go into the west. 

She also created the "Phial of Galadriel" with light from Earendil's star, given as a gift to Frodo. She made lembas bread as Melian had taught her and gave it to the fellowship without which Frodo and Sam would have never accomplished their mission. Her intercessory powers saved Sam and Frodo multiple times in Mordor, without which they would never have accomplished their mission. Due to her wisdom, she united the elves and dwarves of Eriador, and they became much more robust in the second age in resisting Sauron. 

But even if this is all so, she was the most powerful elf in the third age, the most powerful of the free people in the second age, and continued to gain wisdom and power over time. What about Feanor in the Eldar days? Was he not more potent than Galadriel was in the third? Tolkien describes these two as the most powerful elves that ever existed but did not put one above the other. 

_"Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Feanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years."
-Unfinished Tales of Numenor and Middle-Earth and the Later Writings People of Middle Earth the Shibboleth of Feanor Ballantine Books NY 1988

"Strong of body, mind, and will, a match for both the loremasters and the athletes of the Eldar....these two kinsfolk [Galadriel and Fenor], the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor."
-Unfinished Tales of Numenor and Middle-Earth Ballantine Books NY 1988_

But I think we can indirectly conclude that Galadriel was the more powerful. One thing to consider is why Feanor was not around in the third age as Galadriel was. Feanor's anger drove him to foolish actions that wound up getting him killed. I don't see Galadriel making a similar mistake. Tolkien said that Galadriel and Feanor were the most powerful elves in the first age. Tolkien also says that elves [individually] and, in particular, Galadriel grow more potent over time. Thus, if they were equal in the first age and Feanor died- but Galadriel continued to grow in wisdom and power, she would be the most powerful as a keeper of a great ring of power by the third age. If I am correct, then Galadriel was more often than any other being, the most powerful free peoples person living in Middle-earth. So over the long haul, she should be considered Sauron's enemy number one. 

Some might think her less powerful since she was banned from Valinor with the elves who left Aman. But Sauron did far worse and yet was very powerful. Besides, Tolkien said like Mary [the mother of Jesus], she was without stain. 

_"Galadriel was 'unstained': she had committed no evil deeds. She was an enemy of Fëanor. She did not reach Middle-earth with the other Noldor, but independently. Her reasons for desiring to go to Middle-earth were legitimate, and she would have been permitted to depart, but for the misfortune that before she set out the revolt of Fëanor broke out, and she became involved in the desperate measures of Manwe, and the ban on all emigration."
-J.R.R Tolkien letters 353_


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## Elthir (Aug 10, 2021)

Just to add, we have a new book coming soon with a section called _Galadriel and Celeborn _-- with a ten page gap before the next section begins! Do we have ten full pages about Galadriel and Celeborn?

And if so, how big is the font!

🐾


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## Olorgando (Aug 10, 2021)

1stvermont said:


> In fact, because of her ring's power, the Witch King with his ring would not even enter Lorien, yet he faced down Gandalf the White at Minas Tirith's gates


Bovine droppings. The W-k did nothing of the sort, he was distracted by the horns of the Rohirrim and broke off the confrontation, so push never came to shove. Gandalf the White, a Maia returned, sent back by Eru, vastly more powerful than Galadriel, wielding another of the three Great Elven Rings and Glamdring, would have moved the W-k's demise forward a bit - leaving a pile of W-k-salami slices at the gates of Minas Tirith.



1stvermont said:


> _"Throughout the *second* and third ages Lorien remained safe from Sauron, For Galadriel's power was such that she knew his mind but hers was closed to him, and she could protect Lorien from assault by any power less than Sauron himself."
> -Robert Foster the Complete Guide to Middle Earth Ballantine Books NY 1978 _


Bovine droppings again, in this case by Foster. Yes, he actually wrote this drivel, but after Sauron had created the One Ring and put it on in SA 1600, the holders of the three Great Elven Rings _took theirs off_ and were unable to do anything with them until Sauron lost the One Ring at the end of the Second Age. Sauron did not attack Lórien in the Second Age (assuming Galadriel was already there by then, an issue that remains in doubt) because he was seriously occupied on the western side of the Misty Mountains, eventually getting his butt kicked out of Eriador. From the Third Age onward, when Galadriel was again able to use her Great Elven Ring to protect Lórien - against a Sauron lacking his One Ring whose main, almost sole, purpose was to dominate the three Great Elven ones.


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## Elthir (Aug 10, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> Bovine droppings. ( . . . ) Gandalf the White ( . . . ) vastly more powerful than Galadriel . . .



Equine droppings.

*Sanome tarne Olórin, Galadriel, Aracorno**, Imrahil, mi míse, mi telepta yo morna, 
mi laiqua yo ninque, mi **luini, ta Gimli mi lossea.*

🐾


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## Olorgando (Aug 10, 2021)

Elthir said:


> Equine droppings.


I'd like to hear what Shadowfax has to say about that ...


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## Elthir (Aug 10, 2021)

He said nay.


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## Olorgando (Aug 10, 2021)

Elthir said:


> He said nay.


Sounded more like "neigh" to me ... 🐴


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## Elthir (Aug 11, 2021)

By the way, the Elvish above (in my post) has nothing to do with who is more powerful than whom.

I just figured anyone not interested in Quenya might think it was relevant in some way


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## grendel (Aug 12, 2021)

Oh come on, people!

Gandalf fought the Balrog _because he was a Maiar._ Although he defeated him, Gandalf himself "died" and was "sent back" (by the Valar or by Eru, kind vague) _because he was Maiar_. Certainly no Man, and probably no Third Age Elf, is going to fight a Balrog and come out ahead. Just... just stop.


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## Elthir (Aug 13, 2021)

A certain Balrog only succeeded in killing Glorfindel due to grabbing the Elf's hair as it fell. Before that (but leaving out what the Balrog did to Glorfindel), Glorfindel had beaten a heavy swinge (blow) upon
its iron helm, hewn off its whip arm at the elbow, and stabbed its belly with a dirk.

And Tolkien never revised this confrontation so these details must be true 

in a late text JRRT noted that the duel with Glorfindel and the "demon" may need revision


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## Rōmānus (Apr 1, 2022)

John said:


> Could Galadriel Or Elrond Have Killed Durin's Bane like Gandalf Did Had They Joined The Fellowship Of The Ring? If Yes Why? If Not Why?


I would say that it is certainly possible, more-so with Galadriel, but as history shows fighting a Balrog is a death sentence whether you kill it or not.


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## Mairon (May 25, 2022)

John said:


> Could Galadriel Or Elrond Have Killed Durin's Bane like Gandalf Did Had They Joined The Fellowship Of The Ring? If Yes Why? If Not Why?


Balrogs are strong Maias i think. Galadriel can lose if she is alone. But with the Elrond she can defeat this war.


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## Lómelindë Lindórië (May 25, 2022)

Mairon said:


> Balrogs are strong Maias i think. Galadriel can lose if she is alone. But with the Elrond she can defeat this war.


Balrogs were indeed Maiar that were corrupted by Melkor. But considering that Galadriel and Elrond were both Elves (Elrond is actually counted among the Half-Elven), it would have been fairly difficult for them to defeat a fallen Maia.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (May 29, 2022)

Mairon said:


> Balrogs are strong Maias i think. Galadriel can lose if she is alone. But with the Elrond she can defeat this war.


Welcome, Mairon. If you'd like to introduce yourself, and say something about your own interests, don't forget our New Members forum. 🙂









New Members


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