# C&C's plans with Luthien



## Confusticated (Aug 25, 2003)

Was Curufin and Celegorm's plan to force Thingol into letting Celegorm marry Luthien, so that they would be the mightiest of the princes and have all the elf kingdoms under their command so that they might take back the silmarils, a plan that they should have really thought might succeed given what they must have known?


----------



## Niniel (Aug 26, 2003)

I think so; in fighting skills they couldn't have been very much worse than Beren (although they were cowards and Beren wasn't), so they must have thought they could beat him with two against one. Or maybe they weren't really thinking and were just so blinded by Lúthien's beauty that they just wanted to have her.


----------



## Arvedui (Aug 26, 2003)

> He [Huan] brought her to Celegorm, and Lúthien, learning that he was a prince of the Noldor and a foe of Morgoth, was glad; and she declared herself, casting aside her cloak. So great was her sudden beauty revealed beneath the sun that Celegorm became enamoured of her;...


This might indicate that Niniel is right in what she says in her last sentence. But there is more:


> ... they purposed to let the King perish, and to keep Lúthien, and force Thingol to give her the mightiest of princes of the Noldor. And they did not purpose to seek the Silmarils by crafts or war, or to suffer any others to do so, until they had all the might of the Elf-kingdoms under their hands. Orodreth had no power to withstand them, for they swayed the hearts of the people of Nargothrond; and Celegorm sent messengers to Thingol urging his suit.


So, I believe that they first became enamoured of her, then secondly came up with a cunning plan on how they could use Lúthien to gain power. 

Not a bad idea really: Both getting to marry the most beautiful of the Firstborn, and also get more power as a bonus.
It just shows why those two are the most despicable of the Sons of Fëanor. Just too bad for them that Huan was around...


----------



## Feanorian (Aug 26, 2003)

I would not call them despicable for those reasons. Practically any man/elf who saw Luthien fell in love with her or became enthralled to her beauty so that does not make them despicable...just male . and this


> And they did not purpose to seek the Silmarils by crafts or war, or to suffer any others to do so, until they had all the might of the Elf-kingdoms under their hands.



in my opinion at least shows that they did not desire anymore useless bloodshed. To fufill their 'despicable' oath they needed to unite the Elves, what else could they do? 

Do not get me wrong, these two were bad to the bone, just not in this particular situation.


----------



## Confusticated (Aug 26, 2003)

I think it was a bad plan and they were fools to think it could succeed. Was there ever a chance of Thingol agreeing to let Celegorm marry Luthien against her will? Wouldn't Doriath have went to war against Nargothrond. The other sons of Feanor in the East would have heard about it, maybe attacked Doriath from both sides. Either way, sounds like something to initiate the biggest kinslaying ever. How many elves could they get under their rule to go against Morgoth when they're all busy fighting eachother.


----------



## Feanorian (Aug 26, 2003)

I was talking about their plan, why wouldn't Thingol let him have her hand in marriage? In a political world that seems to work very well. Why wouldnt you want to unite the two most powerful forces of Elves?


----------



## Arvedui (Aug 26, 2003)

From what _we_ know, there is no way to think that it could succeed. C &C perhaps didn't see it that way. Maybe I was wrong in calling it "not a bad plan." Maybe "a shrewd plan" would have been better.
I agree that there is no way that Thingol would accept Lúthien to marry Celegorm. First of all, Celegorm was not someone Thingol would allow to enter Doriath. Second, he had already promised Beren that he could marry Lúthien (he just had to accomplish some minor business first ), and I don't view Thingol as one who walks away from his promises.

Then there is the customs among Eldar concerning love and marriage. Lúthien was in love with Beren, and if I remember correctly, Elves only fall in love once. I am not sure if that counts if that once is with a Man, but I suppose that it don't. In any case, I think that would have influenced Thingol's judgement in this case.

But, first and foremost, Celegorm was active in the Kinslaying at Alqualondë, and I don't think for a moment that Thingol would forget that.


----------



## Beleg (Aug 26, 2003)

> I was talking about their plan, why wouldn't Thingol let him have her hand in marriage?



So do you really think he would give the hand of Luthien to the slayers of the kin of his brother Olwe? 


> In a political world that seems to work very well.


I don't like Thingol but I don't think Thingol would drop so low as to hand over Luthien to a haughty and commonplace prince like Celegorm. In Political terms it won't work, because Thingol was never very fond of any son of Feanor. 


> Why wouldnt you want to unite the two most powerful forces of Elves?


Because a hundred different valid social, political and socialogical reasons come in between. 
Besides these two tried to anduct Luthien; they didn't even go to Thingol and asked for her hand, that's hardly noble. 



> in my opinion at least shows that they did not desire anymore useless bloodshed. To fufill their 'despicable' oath they needed to unite the Elves, what else could they do?



No Feanorian, What they intended would have caused greater bloodshed and an premature total wiping off of Elvish Civilazation. 


These two were bad to the bone, particularly in this situation. 

I don't see Meadhros siding of with these two in this. 
I guess the sons of Feanor would have been destroyed since they would be challenging the might of Doriath and Nargothrond.
Do you really think these two were optimistic enough that Thingol would give Luthien's hand, or even Luthien would agree to marry them? Seems like a fool idea created in a crazy drunkyard.


----------



## Confusticated (Aug 28, 2003)

Maybe I will say it was a good plan, just for fun.

What else could they have done? They would never sweet-talk Thingol into being an ally. It was desperate times, called for taking huge risks and trying the seemingly impossable.


----------



## Glomund (Sep 14, 2003)

I just want to point out that Elves could fall in love more than once, C&C's grandfather Finwe did it twice, it was just a rare occurence. So it was theoretically possible for Luthien to fall in love with one of the two, and Thingol, if he had to choose, would have rather had his daughter married to a Elf, even one of these two, before a lowly man. I agree he would not break his promises. He even tells his daughter he wishes he would not have made his promise to her so quickly so he could kill Beren. ANd the promise to Beren was made so that Beren would die trying to fulfill his part, Thingol never expected to see him again.
Now on to the plan; I think it was a good plan for the sons, it is always a good thing in war to have as many men as possible, and have them under as unified a command as possible. But I really don't think they were doing it only thinking of the war on Morgoth, I think these two were only interested in gaining power, and the war against Morgoth was equally split in their hearts between regaining the Silmarils and removing a challenge to their domination. If you believe the theories about the followeres of Aule being corruptible (Sauron and Saruman), didn't one or both of these two follow him as well? In political terms, it was a common practice in medivial europe for this sort of marriage of convinience was common, but without the abducting of the bride part, so it may not have been completley out of bounds for the two to try it, but the kinslaying and Thingols love for his daughter, not his regard for her feelings toward Beren, made it a doomed plan.


----------



## Confusticated (Apr 17, 2005)

Rarely read an old thread where my opinion has not changed some, but in this case I stick with it: Bad plan.

Fresh takes?


----------



## YayGollum (Apr 17, 2005)

Fresh takes on if C. & C.'s plans involving the evil Luthien lady were ones where they should have thought that they might succeed? That seems to me to be the question at the beginning, even though some people just show up to write that they made good or bad plans at the time. Am I wrong? Anyways, I shall answer the first question. I say that yes, they should have thought that they might succeed. They came up with the idea. They thought that it was a good one. It doesn't look like they were too doubtful about it. It doesn't look like they had many ideas at once and decided to go with the most fun. This was the only one that I got to read about at the time. They like their ideas and expect others to agree with them. Anyone who doesn't is just being unreasonable in their eyes, of course. Also, I'll answer the other question that showed up. No, it was not a good plan. Those dudes had no chance at being great leaders of many elves at once just because of a beneficial marriage. But then, maybe they did and not enough is written about how cool they are.


----------



## Elfarmari (Apr 20, 2005)

On one hand, if Curufin and Celegorm may well have thought, as has been mentioned, that Thingol would much rather have his daughter marry an elf than a mortal. However, if they knew what had happened between Thingol and Beren, they would also know that Thingol had no intention of giving his daughter away. And there is the slight matter of the Kinslaying . . . So, I guess given Curufin and Celegorm's view, which was probably somewhat twisted and self-centered, they probably did honestly think their plan would work. Should they have? No, knowing of Thingol what they would have, they should have known that Thingol's pride, if nothing else, would keep him from agreeing to their request. IMHO, Thingol would have preferred Luthien to remain single, at his side.


----------



## Inderjit S (Apr 23, 2005)

Poor Celegorm and Curufin! I really feel sorry for them two sometimes. I mean Celegorm clearly was in love with Lúthien, and that was no one's fault but Lúthien's-if she wasn't so pretty (and coquettish-she obv. led him on!) then he wouldn't have fell in love with her, and so the fault lies with Lúthien-after all, Celegorm could not help the stirrings of his heart. 

Seriously, it was a dumb plan, big brother Maedhros would have been against it, but perhaps if they managed to gain the silmarils via the unified Elven realms then they may have been able to sway him-but Maedhros was no fool-neither were the other Elven kingdoms. Apart from those Green Elves who did nothing much special of course. Perhaps Celegorm and Cururfin had been smoking marijuana? Perhaps Lúthien was really a man? Who cares. I feel sorry for the sons of Feanor-they are misunderstood, like sharks and Spartan husbandmen. And why go for Lúthien when that man loving, superficial wench Finduilas was in Nargothrond. I bet she was swayed by their "words" too.*nudge* *nudge*


----------



## Gil-Galad (Apr 23, 2005)

Their plan could have had any chances for a success ,at least according to them. 
If they had managed with it,they could have had some oppurtinities for getting the Silmarils back.
But on the other side there still do many question,even if they had managed.We do not know what the others' reactions could have been-there are too many "if"-s......  So,they just faced the consequences from their "reasonable" plan,Luthien and Beren enjoyed each other....,and everything else is nothing but speculations


----------



## Thorondor_ (May 16, 2005)

Aredhel was "hypnotised" by Eol... I know Luthien has Maia ascendence... but that still leaves room for speculation. Perhaps C&C would have used some similar trick... maybe get her to "oficially" marry a "clean" elf (who would obey them)... it is a bit more complicated... but possible


----------

