# Why didn't the Valar receive the One Ring?



## Úlairi

In the Council of Elrond it was suggested that they should sail the Ring over to the _"The Lords of the West"_ i.e. the Valar. But it was said that the Ring would not be received. Yet the Valar were so worried about the domination of Sauron, that they sent five wizards (or possibly even more than that) over to ME to stop him. Why do you think this is???


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## Eonwe

This is directly explained I think by Elrond in the CoE. To paraphrase (since I don't have the books), he says that too often the free peoples of ME have turned that way to solve their problems. The Valar after Numenor are no longer directly involved, they leave it up to the people of ME to correct their problems.

So the Valar in the Third Age sent the Istari to guide people to do the right things against evil, not to counter the force of evil directly.


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## Merry

That is really mean, the Valar didn't have to do much, just sit on the ring and keep it safe. In fact, I'm sure Manwe could have unmade it within seconds. 

Lets abandon the world to darkness and hatred shall we??

Yay the Valar!


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## Anduril

I think Eonwe has a good point...
In fact, If we can remember what happened in Numenoré, thus we can have a whole idea of the nature of men...

To this people (men) were given by the Valar several gifts, power, wisdom , longevity...and this guys, at the end, wasted them due to greed and perversion...

I think at this point, The Valar decided play a role as guides, not saviors...


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## Orome

Hmmmm, have to think about what Merry is saying. There are times when we have to use the gifts we have given to make the best of things as they are, but wouldn't it seem at least responsible the Valar take care of their own so to speak? Leaving mortals to clean up the messes of greater ones the greater ones themselves have not cleaned up seems quite nearly negligent and irresponsible if you think about it from a responsibility standpoint. Let mortals deal with mortal problems. Let the higher ones take care of their own problems which were not fixed. Whatever could be said of temptations Sauron made at various times which were accepted by any race in any form should not have been a temptation they should have faced. Mortal temptations are quite enough to overcome in any reasonable form but those offered by greater beings should not be faced. At least the Istari being sent seems some parallel for the tempation Sauron would make in that there was influence toward the opposite path. Seems like their arrival was after too much of Sauron's impact was already set in motion and direct influence from the Valar was not as much there to offset it in ways. Not very balanced seemingly. Let greater ones against whom our power is not so much act more directly against greater ones againtst whom are power is not so much. The rest is test enough!


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## Legolam

But what's the point in turning to someone higher up every time you have a problem. At some point, you have to stand on your own two feet. Everyone has to learn to sort out their problems, or else no-one has any accountability. The Valar were acting as guides, as Anduril said, but they can't take responsibility for the actions of men all the time. The fact that the citizens of ME had to sort it out themselves also helped them grow and mature and appreciate the difference between good and evil. If the Valar had simply stepped in, they wouldn't have learnt this important point.


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## Merry

I would agree with you if the natural inhabitants of M-E had caused the problems themselves. However, Sauron was a Maia and was picking on people who were inferior in power. Leaving M-E to defend themselves against Sauron is almost like letting a wolf have free reign in a chicken coup, the match is not a fair one.

I think that the Valar had the responsibility to defend the children of Eru against any unfair competition.


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## Anduril

I think this is a question of "pares" (similar people in rank, in latin)...

who can pervert a Vala? a Maia?..I don't think so...

I think that in certain point of the history, every nation,every country, every bunch of people has been obligated to fight against external forces (even stronger than themselves)...that's the only way to learn, and to grow up.
If everything is given to you, you won't appreciate your own effort or your own growth.
I you don't know light, you can easily be perverted by darkness.
If you don't know darkness, you can't see light.

Hard, but real.

In fact, I think Sauron knew that he couldn't pervert Vala...so, he tried the easier way in the order to damage The Creation...pervert man, dwarves, elfs...


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## Merry

> _Originally posted by Anduril _
> *
> In fact, I think Sauron knew that he couldn't pervert Vala...so, he tried the easier way in the order to damage The Creation...pervert man, dwarves, elfs... *



Therefore that is a backdoor way of attcking the Valar, if you attack the children of god you are in effect, attacking god. But the Valar did nothing....??


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## Anduril

They helped men in the past...example again...Numenor, and the battle before The Gift..pfuff...ouch...

And we demostrated our "high capability of being corrupted"...

We're not the children of The Vala, we're children of Eru...The Vala were, since the very beginning, the guides of Arda. They defeated Arda for the coming "boarders"...

This is a matter of perception.

I think the Vala were guides, more than saviors, if Eru (and I'm going to launch a very bold statement)didn't thought we needed him...who were the Vala to disagree with him?
And I'm responding with another question to ilustrate my point: Why Sauron , as a Maia, as a demigod, as an ubermensch, didn't offer a ring to Eru?...too complicated. Even impossible...
The Vala helped us, we "failed"...If you are all the time helping your son, he will get the custom and he'll never grow up or will never grow stronger.


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## Orome

Going back to the original question about why the Valar did not receive the ring, right or wrong for what their overall involvement was would it have only been a non-solution in ways or possibly kept things in some mad cycle in middle earth. It had to be decided one way or the other ultimately. Even if the ring was kept from Sauron's reach then Sauron if cast down would have his power actually preserved in a way in the land of the Valar itself. Kind of an irony in that. As long as the ring existed somewhere each time Sauron was thrown down he could regather his power again. That would have been quite a mess and the Valar would have themselves contributed to it had they taken the ring. So while it was not ensured that Sauron would never gain full power it was also not ensured that Sauron would continue on and on and on as long as his ring was existing. The only way
around this I suppose is if the Valar themselves would have destroyed the ring.


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## Úlairi

*Exalctly my point!*

   That's exactly my point, exactly! They could have destroyed the One Ring if it was given to them in an instant. That would end Sauron, yet they did not receive, which brings us back to the thread, why didn't they receive the One Ring and help the peoples of Middle-earth out one last time before the return of Melkor!  

*Hey people! Post!*

This thought just occured to me. If the Valar weren't willing to receive the One Ring because of the fact that they believed that they had helped the peoples of ME one too many times, then why did they send the Istari if they weren't willing to help?


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## Anarchist

Well to begin with, personally I don't like some of the Valar. They let Morgoth do his own for such a long time and cause such pain and sadness before they punished him. It would be a small matter for them to undo the ring. But think it the other way. After the "attack" of the Numenorians (actually they didn't achieved an attack), they became more distant from the people of ME. They let them do their own without interfeering. I believe they had offered enough help. But, if all things failed, I believe that they would finally help, punishing once again the Dark Lord, just like they did with Morgoth.


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## Zale

Remember that Sauron may not have been the Valar's only 'problem' in Middle-Earth; Tolkien only wrote about the North-West corner! There may have been loads of other things (including Morgoth-corrupted Maia) to deal with. Therefore, they could not devote all of their time to Sauron.


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## Úlairi

Very good opinion Zale! But I believe that most of the southern parts of ME were wasteland.


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## Beleg Strongbow

> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *Very good opinion Zale! But I believe that most of the southern parts of ME were wasteland. *






Is that right Ulairi can u tell me where u got that info?? I'm interested in that part of the world and there aint that much info on it.


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## Úlairi

There is no info on it Beleg, it is just stated that is was mostly wasteland. BtW, this thread was abondoned long ago (a couple of months now) and I do not wish to post in it anymore Beleg, so, just don't post in it. I hate seeing posts where my happy and lovey-dovey smiley faces still exist. I cannot believe I was once like that. I gave up the smiley faces when I reached Senior Member status.


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## Beleg Strongbow

> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *There is no info on it Beleg, it is just stated that is was mostly wasteland. BtW, this thread was abondoned long ago (a couple of months now) and I do not wish to post in it anymore Beleg, so, just don't post in it. I hate seeing posts where my happy and lovey-dovey smiley faces still exist. I cannot believe I was once like that. I gave up the smiley faces when I reached Senior Member status. *






Yes how did you change that from to "senior member" 2 "lord of...."? I don't know how to do it   .


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## Úlairi

You go to your user control panel, go to edit profile on the toolbar at the top. You will go to your profile and you scroll down to where it says: "Custom User Title" and you can change it in there! You seemed to have missed out on quite a lot since you have been gone! BtW, the WB at one time even got rid of the post count!


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## Beleg Strongbow

> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *You go to your user control panel, go to edit profile on the toolbar at the top. You will go to your profile and you scroll down to where it says: "Custom User Title" and you can change it in there! You seemed to have missed out on quite a lot since you have been gone! BtW, the WB at one time even got rid of the post count! *





Yes i geuss so. Thanks alot Ulairi


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## Úlairi

No problem.


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## AElfwine

Simple: Tolkien wanted to write a story, it would defeat his purpose, and he probably would have never been a popular writer if he would have done so. It makes it interesting, its like if ET could fly away to save Elliot in the end of the movie, why didn't he fly away in the beginning? Because it is interesting. Genuis


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## Úlairi

> _Originally posted by AElfwine_
> *Simple: Tolkien wanted to write a story, it would defeat his purpose, and he probably would have never been a popular writer if he would have done so. It makes it interesting, its like if ET could fly away to save Elliot in the end of the movie, why didn't he fly away in the beginning? Because it is interesting. Genuis *



Yes, Tolkien wanted to write a story, and it was genius. But there were many ways in which Tolkien could write his novels and there wee many possible outcomes. That is why I post these threads, to see whether if factor X is changed and what X will have the effect on Y, the outcome.


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## Elbereth

I have no doubt that the Valar themselves would have agreed in helping in the recovery of the ring, had they known about it. From all accounts, the Valar and the Maiar who were sent, did not even realize the ring was still in existance until much later in the third age. By that time, Sauron's powers had already begun to grow. 

Elrond's statement that the Valar would not accept the ring is based on the opinion that he had developed in his experience with the Valar. In his lifetime, the Valar had become aloof and distant to the peoples of Middle Earth. By sending the Maiar to deal with Middle Earth's problems, the Valar's actions could have been construed as being reluctant to take a direct role in its problems.

One should also realize that many of the peoples of the day, believed the Valar to be fairy tales...mere folk tale hero of old. To have such powerful figures come back into the world, would shock and frighten many of its ignorant inhabitants...which would hamper rather than help the situation. By sending the Maiar in the form of great men...their assistance can be more widely accepted.


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## SpencerC18

Also every time the Valar interfered in a major way, something bad would always blow back in their faces. By sending the Istari they wern't interfering too much, because the Valar limited the powers of the Istari.


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## Beleg Strongbow

Could you please tell me when SpencerC18. I would like to find out were. I cAan only remember when they interfered and good things happened.


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## Úlairi

> _Originally posted by SpencerC18 _
> *Also every time the Valar interfered in a major way, something bad would always blow back in their faces. By sending the Istari they wern't interfering too much, because the Valar limited the powers of the Istari. *



Yes SpencerC18, but the Valar were still contradicting themselves in the sense that they still sent the Istari when they said that they would not destroy the Ring. Yes, show us how it blew back in their face. All I can recall is when they tried to opress the Noldor, the Noldor rebelled, so could you show us where else the Valar intervened?



> _Originally posted by Elbereth_
> *From all accounts, the Valar and the Maiar who were sent...*



Elbereth, none of the Valar were sent to ME, only Maia. It was prophecied by Mandos that none of the Valar would retyrn to ME until the escape of Melkor in which Turin Turambar would slay him.


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## Beleg Strongbow

> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *
> 
> Yes SpencerC18, but the Valar were still contradicting themselves in the sense that they still sent the Istari when they said that they would not destroy the Ring. Yes, show us how it blew back in their face. All I can recall is when they tried to opress the Noldor, the Noldor rebelled, so could you show us where else the Valar intervened?
> 
> 
> 
> Elbereth, none of the Valar were sent to ME, only Maia. It was prophecied by Mandos that none of the Valar would retyrn to ME until the escape of Melkor in which Turin Turambar would slay him. *





Yes and they helped when they interfered and sent an army over to m.e earth in the war of the wrath. Ulmo helped them and interfered many and many times eg. tuor,voronwe,poweer he put into the water and turgon (in finding gondolin) to name a few. Last time i looked he was a vala. I cant really name a bad thing they did (interfering).


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## Úlairi

You'ver stepped outside the argument Beleg. The Valar were allowed to do those things. But later in the History of Arda, they said that they did not wish to help the peoples of ME as they had done enough, and the destruction of Sauron was their problem. Yet, despite the fact that they said this, they still sent over the _Istari_. I am wondering why they interfered when they said that they did not want to interfere anymore. It is a contradiction, you must see that everyone.


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## Anarchist

Firstly I disagree with AElfwine, that Tolkien just said this to go on with his story. This is a very serious matter, that the Valar wouldn't take the ring. There must be a reason, since Tolkien wouldn't just make up this excuse to go on with the story.
I have stated my opinion before, but I feel I should add another one. What if Elrond whas afraid that the ring would corrupt the Valar?! Yes I know some of you will attack me with poisoned spears  but think about it. Even Gandalf, such a powerful wizard was tempted. I know Sauron was of lesser power, but being evil makes him even more powerful. He escaped from the rauth of Eru when he destroyed Numenor, just losing his body. I don't mean that Eru couldn't destroy him, but that he had his ways of slipping and doing his evil works. What if a lesser Valar was tempted and wanted to take the leadership from Manwe? Chaos would come between the Valar. They weren't perfect. I believe Tolkien took some characteristics from the ancient Greek gods to create the Valar. They had some human disadvantages. They were very powerful but still they couldn't stop Ungoliant from poisoning the Trees of Valinor. And still she was neither a Valar nor a Maiar. Just an opinion.


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## pohuist

On another note: I believe Valinor was hidden. How could they pass the Ring to Valar technically?


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## Úlairi

> _Originally posted by Anarchist _
> *Firstly I disagree with AElfwine, that Tolkien just said this to go on with his story. This is a very serious matter, that the Valar wouldn't take the ring. There must be a reason, since Tolkien wouldn't just make up this excuse to go on with the story.
> I have stated my opinion before, but I feel I should add another one. What if Elrond whas afraid that the ring would corrupt the Valar?! Yes I know some of you will attack me with poisoned spears  but think about it. Even Gandalf, such a powerful wizard was tempted. I know Sauron was of lesser power, but being evil makes him even more powerful. He escaped from the rauth of Eru when he destroyed Numenor, just losing his body. I don't mean that Eru couldn't destroy him, but that he had his ways of slipping and doing his evil works. What if a lesser Valar was tempted and wanted to take the leadership from Manwe? Chaos would come between the Valar. They weren't perfect. I believe Tolkien took some characteristics from the ancient Greek gods to create the Valar. They had some human disadvantages. They were very powerful but still they couldn't stop Ungoliant from poisoning the Trees of Valinor. And still she was neither a Valar nor a Maiar. Just an opinion. *



I'm not just going to attack you with a poisined spear, I'm coming out with all guns blazing. Sauron was one of the most powerful Maia in existence. He was up there with Eonwe, Ilmare and Osse. Gandalf was in no way more powerful than Sauron, in no way whatsoever. Anarchist, I cannot believe that you believe that! Here is a couple of passages from UT:



> "And Curunir Lan, Saruman the White, fell from his high errand, and becoming proud and impatient and enamoured of power sought to have his own will by force, and to oust Sauron, but he was ensnared by that dark spirit, *mightier than he*."



So, Sauron was more powerful than Saruman, and Saruman was more powerful than Gandalf. Gandalf says it himself:



> "Saruman is the chief of my order."



Therefore Saruman is more powerful than Gandalf, therefore *Sauron is more powerful than Gandalf.* Now Arathin, you may be thinking: 

'Well, what about Gandalf the White? He's more powerful than Saruman, so he *could* be more powerful than Sauron, couldn't he?'

Well, the answer in 'no, he couldn't'. Here are a couple of passages that clearly show that Sauron is more powerful than Gandalf the White, as Gandalf the White says it himself:



> "'Dangerous!' cried Gandalf. 'And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, *unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord.*'"



Gandalf clearly says there that Sauron is more 'dangerous' than Gandalf. Which is definitely suggestive of the fact that Sauron was more powerful than Gandalf the White. 

'Wow! He's more dangerous!' you may think Arathin, 'but that doesn't mean he was more powerful, does it?'

Well, Gandalf says later on the same page:



> "I am Gandalf, Gandalf the White, *but Black is mightier still*."



And there you have it, Gandalf says that Sauron is more powerful than himself. If you want even more proof, than here it is. Olorin (Gandalf) says to Manwe that he is afraid of the power of Sauron in UT:



> "Then Manwe asked, where was Olorin? And Olorin, who was clad in grey, and just having entered from a journey had seated himself at the edge of the council, asked that Manwe would have of him. Manwe replied that he wished Olorin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth. But Olorin declared that he was *too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron.*"



Olorin, who was Gandalf in his true form (and therefore being more powerful than Gandalf the White could have ever been) said that he was too weak to face the might and power of Sauron, the Black King. IMO, the only Maia that could actually face up to Sauron would be Eonwe, Ilmare and maybe Osse. As for pohuist, you must agree with what I have said here, I have backed it up with evidence. As for your question, Gandalf, who was a Maia, could simply take the Ring back to Valinor if he wished. Anarchist, I will provide even more proof if you want it.


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## Beleg Strongbow

Melian mayb as well she was very strong and Melkor whould have found it hard to destroy doriath with her still there. I agree with evrything u say Ulairi apart from Saruman being more powerful then Gandalf. Here is why

Gandalf never tried to dominate others as Saruman did so he never used his full strength. Even from the start Galadriel and Cirdan wanted Gandalf at the head of the order. He sucseeded in his task Saruman did not. He took over Sarumans order and in the end u just have to see what he was doing playing around with hobbits because that was the only thing lefty he could do. Olorin is the wisest maia even more the sauron. He was stronger in the end. Gandalf was humble and saruman not. He was honest to. By admiting he was scared of sauron and not as powerful he would know the things he could do and do not. Like feanor if he was honest with himself i'm sure he never would of ran off to take on the balrogs. He would have realised he was no match and not have done that. Gandalf i think was more powerful. I doubt Saruman could have taken on that balrog and won. I think i can remember Gandalf saying mayb tyo Pippin that he was the greatest of his order know. He was a lot smarter then him and sauron. They were both lured by lust and therefore did stupid things. Just look what happened in the end? Who won and what happened top the other because of who?


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## pohuist

> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *
> As for pohuist, you must agree with what I have said here, I have backed it up with evidence. As for your question, Gandalf, who was a Maia, could simply take the Ring back to Valinor if he wished. *



Not so fast Ulairi. First, Tolkien says the Ring could only be unmade in the Mount Doom. I haven't seen any evidence the Valar could unmade it, and if not, sending it there is definitely not a final solution. (That argument is weak, Manwe probably could).

Second, I think Gandalf could go back to Valinor only *if* he would be received. The reasons for him not to be received may be he did not fulfill (in view of the Valar) the task he was sent for. (His task was not to capture the Ring but to defeat Sauron, and without the Ring unmade that sounds problematic).

Third, the journey to Valinor could have proved rather dangerous. In the lands between Rivendell and the Havens there were not much protection from the servants of Saurons, should he be quick enough to sent some. Saruman also should not be forgotten. They were indeed searching. Right before death of Boromir, the company was waylaid by 3 groups of Orcs working together Orcs of Moria, Uruks of Saruman and Orcs of Sauron. Also, the ships sometimes get wrecked in which case the Ring would have end up on the seabed -- not good enough, the Ring had a strange way of reappearing.

Another reason, unlike Melkor or Sauron himself, the Ring was made in ME. It was sort of ME problem and the Valar could think it should be dealt with in ME. That resolves the contradiction -- they sent Istari to battle their problem (Sauron) but left peoples of ME to deal with ME problem (the Ring).

Last but not least, if Gandalf was taking the Ring to Valinor, it would have been in his possession for sometime. Ask your favourite real estate agent -- possession is 90% ownership. Gandalf had serious reasons NOT to have the Ring in his possession.

I think my argument still stands.


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## Úlairi

pohuist, you have made some interesting points here.



> _Originally posted by pohuist_
> *First, Tolkien says the Ring could only be unmade in the Mount Doom. I haven't seen any evidence the Valar could unmade it, and if not, sending it there is definitely not a final solution.*



Come on pohuist, you and I both know that that argument is extremely weak. Aule could have destroyed the One Ring in no time whatsoever.



> _Originally posted by pohuist_
> *Second, I think Gandalf could go back to Valinor only if he would be received. The reasons for him not to be received may be he did not fulfill (in view of the Valar) the task he was sent for. (His task was not to capture the Ring but to defeat Sauron, and without the Ring unmade that sounds problematic).*



This is a touchy subject. IMO, the Valar could stop Gandalf. But you made a statement which helps my argument:



> _Originally posted by pohuist_
> *His task was not to capture the Ring but to defeat Sauron...*



The Istari's task was no to 'beat Sauron', but to rally the people of ME to defeat him. The Valar said that they no longer wished to interfere in the affairs of ME, yet they sent the Istari, which is a *definite contradiction*.



> _Originally posted by pohuist_
> *Third, the journey to Valinor could have proved rather dangerous. In the lands between Rivendell and the Havens there were not much protection from the servants of Saurons, should he be quick enough to sent some. Saruman also should not be forgotten. They were indeed searching. Right before death of Boromir, the company was waylaid by 3 groups of Orcs working together Orcs of Moria, Uruks of Saruman and Orcs of Sauron. Also, the ships sometimes get wrecked in which case the Ring would have end up on the seabed -- not good enough, the Ring had a strange way of reappearing.*



Yes, I agree, but that fact is irrelevant to both your and my arguments. That one is easy to solve. Gandalf was a wizard, I am sure that it would have not have been too much of a problem for him. Besides, if you look at a map of ME, the passage between the Grey Havens and the Shire is quite safe, as Isengard and Moria are well out of the way. As for the spies of Saruman. We know that they are usually men, so Gandalf wouldn't of had too much trouble as I said before.



> _Originally posted by pohuist_
> *Another reason, unlike Melkor or Sauron himself, the Ring was made in ME. It was sort of ME problem and the Valar could think it should be dealt with in ME. That resolves the contradiction -- they sent Istari to battle their problem (Sauron) but left peoples of ME to deal with ME problem (the Ring).*



I disagree (of course I do otherwise my argument dies). Gandalf * both chose and suggested the way to destroy Sauron by saying that the Ring should be destroyed.* He even becomes one of the Fellowship to go and destroy the One, now, that's interfering with ME *'property'*. If a Maia was to interfere with the One Ring, as Gandalf did, then it would be no different than the Valar doing it themselves. So, the Valar made the Ring their problem by sending rhe Istari to not only deal with Sauron (as you said pohuist), but by sending them to deal with the Ring which is, in your opinion, ME property.

My argument definitely still stands.


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## Grond

Ulari, you are wrong. The Valar wanted the "destiny" of Middle-earth to proceed. That destiny required the Ring to be destroyed by those that it dealt with. The Ruling Ring was not made with any single influence of the Valar. They had nothing to do with it.

It was, however, made by one of their own which gave that Maia (Sauron) an unfair advantage over the rest of the peoples of Middle-earth. The Valar knew that Sauron was still here and sent the Istari to aid the peoples of Middle-earth. It took both the Istari (because they forgot much of which they knew in Valinor) and the White Council longer to discover this fact. In fact, in 1100 TA they think a Nazgul has taken up abode in Dol Goldur. It isn't until 2850 TA that the White Council discovers that Sauron is indeed the Necromancer.

Why did I post all that. Because it illustrates why the Valar didn't interfere directly, yet knew all along what was going on in Middle-earth. They knew Sauron wasn't vanquished and sent the Istari to help prepare both Men and Elves to fight him again. In order for Man to grow to their full potential and for the Elves to realize that their time was at an end, they had to go through the turmoil and uncertainty of disposing of the Ring themselves. It was a Middle-earth problem and had to be dealt with in a Middle-earth way. That is why the Istari were not sent as Flame Spirits of Manwe but as Men for all intents and purposes. They could be killed and were not any more supernatural than an Elf. 

If you want more of an answer than this Ulari, you will have to find someone more learned than I. I have given you all I have in this thread. If you are still unconvinced, maybe you need to write your own fantasy novels.


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## Maedhros

> However, Sauron was a Maia and was picking on people who were inferior in power. Leaving M-E to defend themselves against Sauron is almost like letting a wolf have free reign in a chicken coup, the match is not a fair one.


Remember, that is why the Valar send the Istari to ME. Remember that the ring was made in ME, not in Valinor.


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## Úlairi

> _Originally posted by Grond _
> *Ulairi, you are wrong. The Valar wanted the "destiny" of Middle-earth to proceed. That destiny required the Ring to be destroyed by those that it dealt with. The Ruling Ring was not made with any single influence of the Valar. They had nothing to do with it.
> 
> It was, however, made by one of their own which gave that Maia (Sauron) an unfair advantage over the rest of the peoples of Middle-earth. The Valar knew that Sauron was still here and sent the Istari to aid the peoples of Middle-earth. It took both the Istari (because they forgot much of which they knew in Valinor) and the White Council longer to discover this fact. In fact, in 1100 TA they think a Nazgul has taken up abode in Dol Goldur. It isn't until 2850 TA that the White Council discovers that Sauron is indeed the Necromancer.
> 
> Why did I post all that. Because it illustrates why the Valar didn't interfere directly, yet knew all along what was going on in Middle-earth. They knew Sauron wasn't vanquished and sent the Istari to help prepare both Men and Elves to fight him again. In order for Man to grow to their full potential and for the Elves to realize that their time was at an end, they had to go through the turmoil and uncertainty of disposing of the Ring themselves. It was a Middle-earth problem and had to be dealt with in a Middle-earth way. That is why the Istari were not sent as Flame Spirits of Manwe but as Men for all intents and purposes. They could be killed and were not any more supernatural than an Elf.
> 
> If you want more of an answer than this Ulairi, you will have to find someone more learned than I. I have given you all I have in this thread. If you are still unconvinced, maybe you need to write your own fantasy novels.  *



Perhaps, perhaps. Yes, I agree with you Grond. ME needed to go on. What you have said satisfies me completely, and I do not think that I will have to go to someone more learned than you, just yet. Actually, I do write a bit of fantasy, so you weren't far from the truth. We are very learned, you and I, but one can defeat the other, and this time, you got me. I submit. In no way can I disagree with a perfect post, there are no holes that I can find. I do remember you agreeing with me on the 'Character Depth' post, and I felt good that the mighty Grond had submitted to me, but know it is my turn. Grond, I congratulate you on the perfect post! Now, there is not much that bothers me about LotR, so, thankyou.


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## Grond

Like me while you can!! Wait til you see my new thread in the Silmarillion Forum called Feanor's Fate. It is a dandy. Everyone.... get ready to lock and load.


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## Úlairi

Well then, I guess it is my turn to get you Grond!


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## Anarchist

Ulairi what are you talking about?!?!?!?!??!! I never mentioned that Gandalf was more powerful than Sauron. No way man!! You completely, totally misunderstood my words. Perhaps I was not clear enough. When I said that Sauron was less powerful I meant he was less powerful than the VALAR . It just happened that I mentioned Gandalf just before the sentence about Sauron. No way man! Gandalf was powerful but not that much! So keep your guns and put your sword back in its seath and first think before attacking. As we say in my country don't let the tongue run faster that the mind.
Grond, I guess you beated us all! But I guess it's unfair that the pople of ME had to learn the hard way! And why did the elves have to leave? Why had their time come?


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## Grond

> _Originally posted by Anarchist _
> *...But I guess it's unfair that the pople of ME had to learn the hard way! And why did the elves have to leave? Why had their time come? *


The Elves as a rule, really weren't meant to dwell in Middle-earth. They were to live and co-mingle with the Ainur. Aside from a few straglers, the host of the Elven People made its way to Eressea and Aman and was meant to set up house there... which they did and they loved it... until Melkor stirred up embers of kingdoms to be won and battles to be fought by 1) corrupting Feanor and 2) stealking his Silmarils and 3) killing Feanor's father. This lead to the Flight of the Noldor and the rest is (as they say) Tokienesque History 101. 

In the end, we are left to believe that the Eldar and even all other Elvish Peoples of Middle-earth, succumbed to the calling of the sea and their yearning to go home. Home for them was Valinor. And... that is why I said that they had to leave. They left because they wanted to.


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## Maedhros

> until Melkor stirred up embers of kingdoms to be won and battles to be fought by 1) corrupting Feanor and 2) stealking his Silmarils and 3) killing Feanor's father.


Grond, are you saying, what i think you're saying?


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## Grond

> _Originally posted by Maedhros _
> *
> Grond, are you saying, what i think you're saying? *


Of course, I'm saying what you think I'm saying. Without Melkor's interference, Feanor (in the story) would not have deserted Aman in the way he did. He may have gone for different reasons... but in the Silmarillion it is very clear that Melkor was the catalyst that brought Feanor's "dark side" to the forefront. I've never said anything different. I stand by my assertion that had Feanor not been susceptible to this subversion, the Flight and the Kinslaying would still not have occurred.


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## Maedhros

> I stand by my assertion that had Feanor not been susceptible to this subversion, the Flight and the Kinslaying would still not have occurred.


So Melkor is partially responsible for Feanor's actions then.


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## Grond

In my own poll, Feanor's Fate... I voted for all of the above. Melkor's release by the Valar was an honest mistake but a mistake none the less. That contributed to Feanor's corruption. Melkor played on the basic flaws in Feanor's character to get him to do exactly what he (Melkor) wanted him (Feanor) to do... and that contributed to Feanor's corruption. But to coin a phrase from a former American president... "The Buck Stops Here". Feanor must accept the responsibility for his own actions because he and he alone is the only person who controls his own actions. 

If we desire to point fingers we can point at Finwe for remarrying. It was that event and the subsequent birth of Feanor's half-brothers Fingolfin and Finarfin that upset him the most. He just couldn't handle competition for glory.


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## Maedhros

> It was that event and the subsequent birth of Feanor's half-brothers Fingolfin and Finarfin that upset him the most. He just couldn't handle competition for glory.


Now that you mention this: What did Fingolfin or Finarfin ever create in Valinor. Can you say NOTHING. What competition?


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## pohuist

> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *
> 
> We are very learned, you and I, but one can defeat the other, and this time, you got me. I submit. In no way can I disagree with a perfect post, there are no holes that I can find. ) *



Ulairi, I mad some of the arguments Grond did, maybe less accurately and persuasively, but nonethelss. So, I think you should agree with me as well. Ah, BTW, you never answered my strongest argument -- if Gandalf was to deliver the Ring he had to have it in his possession, and that's a definite problem.

As for contradiction with sending Istari, Grond have answered that, I have nothing to add. I don't see much difference (besides purely technical between "Defeat Sauron" and "rally people to defeat Sauron" -- the end result is the same and he defeated Sauron using the powers he was allowed to use -- not warrior strenght but wisdom, perception and ability to influence others.


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## Úlairi

> _Originally posted by pohuist _
> *
> 
> Ulairi, I mad some of the arguments Grond did, maybe less accurately and persuasively, but nonethelss. So, I think you should agree with me as well. Ah, BTW, you never answered my strongest argument -- if Gandalf was to deliver the Ring he had to have it in his possession, and that's a definite problem.
> 
> As for contradiction with sending Istari, Grond have answered that, I have nothing to add. I don't see much difference (besides purely technical between "Defeat Sauron" and "rally people to defeat Sauron" -- the end result is the same and he defeated Sauron using the powers he was allowed to use -- not warrior strenght but wisdom, perception and ability to influence others. *



I am sorry pohuist, I did not mean to leave you out of the equation. Yes, I suupose you did make some of the arguments for Grond. Well done to you also. As for Gandalf delievring the One, yes that is a good question and as always, I have a theory. We all know that Gandalf would be tempted by the One, so, perhaps Gandalf could actually carry it in a way in which he could not touch it. Such as in the movie where he has it in an envelope. But, he would always be tempted to put it on being a Maia. The only way I could argue the fact that Gandalf would NOT be as so stupid to put it on is because of the fact that he is the wisest of all Maiar. Grond and Maehdros, argue about this somewhere in the correct threads.


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## Grond

> _Originally posted by Maedhros _
> *
> Now that you mention this: What did Fingolfin or Finarfin ever create in Valinor. Can you say NOTHING. What competition? *


A father's love has nothing to do with what one makes with one's hands. Feanor was ever jealous of Indis and her sons. Not because of what they were capable of making but because of what they were capable of taking... Finwe's love and devotion. And the fear and resentment was unwarranted because nothing Indis nor Fingolfin nor Finarfin could have said or done would have made Finwe love Feanor less. That is one of the greatest tragedys of the whole tale. Feanor could and should have been a loving and devoted brother. I'm not sure if Finarfin was but you know for darn sure that Fingolfin was. He humbled himself before Feanor even WHEN HE HAD DONE NO WRONG. He wasn't trying to usurp Feanor's place by petitioning Finwe, yet Feanor drew a weapon and threatened his life. Had Fingolfin been any more strong willed, a kinslaying would have occurred before Aqualonde and let us not forget who was mightiest in arms. Feanor wouldn't have led the Noldor because his brother would have skewered him.


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## Erestor Arcamen

I found this old ticket as well. Reading through it, my opinion is, the Valar didn't want to keep interceding because they knew the age of man was coming where magic and mythology would be leaving Arda. Even the Istari were sent and they were shaped as men, not elves or dwarves or anything but old looking men because the primary focus was for men to be able to rise up against Sauron.


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## Ithilethiel

Erestor Arcamen said:


> I found this old ticket as well. Reading through it, my opinion is, the Valar didn't want to keep interceding because they knew the age of man was coming where magic and mythology would be leaving Arda. Even the Istari were sent and they were shaped as men, not elves or dwarves or anything but old looking men because the primary focus was for men to be able to rise up against Sauron.



The Necromancer strikes again eh EA! 

I agree with your assessment. Reading thru the old posts there are obviously other reasons but the fact that Arda was transforming to be more human-centric was a major reason as I see it. The elves knew it and so did the dwarves. Times were changing, man for better or worse was coming into his own. 

Progressing thru the trilogy one can sense magic leaking out of Ea. At first a trickle but by RotK Tolkien writes less and less of supernatural solutions. There yet exists some remnants but now the ongoing push of man as primary influencer demands its downplay. Even so, the working of all races working together for good as seen in the Fellowship is magical.


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## Erestor Arcamen

Ithilethiel said:


> The Necromancer strikes again eh EA!



This one actually wasn't archived , I just found it while going through the old pages of this forum. Needless to say, there are some very interesting discussions that have occurred on this site. I figured since it's been slow idI try and bring some to the forefront, one at a time.


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## Inziladun

I don't believe that 'magic' was fading from the World, just that Men were not as adept in distinguishing the transcendental aspects their World from the natural. And it seems the Valar learned from their intervening with the Elves upon their awakening, however the Elves had already been given a choice and had witnessed the Valar. For Men this could not be the same, and some of the Eldar deemed them more to the likes of Melkor, when truly they were closer to Eru; and it was that bond that swayed the chances of the World for the better of their fates, for they were not bound to the World.


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## Olorgando

The central point, at which JRRT arrived at the (while writing the) “Council of Elrond” was that the One Ring must be taken to Mount Doom, the only place where it could be destroyed. Otherwise, we don’t have the story as written.

But when I think of quite a bit of the writing in HoMe about the first Age, I remember often taking a very dim view of the actions – more often inactions – of the Valar. Something like “oh help, doesn’t Eru have better Ainur as caretakers of Arda? This can at best be a B-team!” Now this writing is not canon in the strict sense of author published. But I certainly had a repeated sense of massive dereliction of duty by the Valar. Sauron, Balrog(s), dragons – all this was stuff they should have dealt with, not left to the Eruhini. No wonder humans who had vague inkling of this lot then construed those often disreputable Olympians or Asgardians (to name just European examples) from them!


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## Grond

I've been gone 17 years and this thread still lives. I used to spend way too much time on here.


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## Grima Wormtongue

I was not even 5 months old when this thread was created so clearly I must get a word in because I don't often stumble across threads this prehistoric. 😉

I think some interesting points are being made here.


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## Gothmog

Ithilethiel said:


> Progressing thru the trilogy one can sense magic leaking out of Ea. At first a trickle but by RotK Tolkien writes less and less of supernatural solutions. There yet exists some remnants but now the ongoing push of man as primary influencer demands its downplay. Even so, the working of all races working together for good as seen in the Fellowship is magical.



It is not "magic leaking out of Ea" but Elven magic being superseded by Human magic.


> But to the Atani I will give a new gift.' Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest.
> 
> Quenta Silmarillion: Of the Beginning of Days


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## Grond

Grima Wormtongue said:


> I was not even 5 months old when this thread was created so clearly I must get a word in because I don't often stumble across threads this prehistoric. 😉
> 
> I think some interesting points are being made here.


I resemble that remark!! That means you're calling me "really, really old".


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## Olorgando

Grond said:


> I've been gone 17 years and this thread still lives. I used to spend way too much time on here.


To say it "still lives" may be a bit wide of the mark. The term "Necromancy" (making me think of all sorts of classes of the "undead") has been voiced repeatedly, mostly by one member who shall remain unnamed in this post of mine.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner

2002?!
AHAHAHAHA!


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## Ithilethiel

Gothmog said:


> It is not "magic leaking out of Ea" but Elven magic being superseded by Human magic.



The magic is leaking out by virtue of the de-peopling of the elven race. Human magic? What exactly is that? If it exists at all it could not supersede the elves if the elven world were as vigorous as they once were. The elves were leaving. That is why humans became primary.


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## Gothmog

Ithilethiel said:


> The magic is leaking out by virtue of the de-peopling of the elven race. Human magic? What exactly is that? If it exists at all it could not supersede the elves if the elven world were as vigorous as they once were. The elves were leaving. That is why humans became primary.


From the Quenta Silmarillion. Chapter 1


> But to the Atani I will give a new gift.' Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest.


Humans can do more than the Elves could as they were not limited by the Music. Also, Humans did not become primary because the Elves were leaving. The Elves were leaving because Men were to have dominion after the end of the Third Age of the World.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner

This is true, but Human "magic" seems to be stretching the term "magic". How are you defining it?


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## Ithilethiel

Gothmog said:


> From the Quenta Silmarillion. Chapter 1
> 
> Humans can do more than the Elves could as they were not limited by the Music. Also, Humans did not become primary because the Elves were leaving. The Elves were leaving because Men were to have dominion after the end of the Third Age of the World.





Gothmog said:


> From the Quenta Silmarillion. Chapter 1
> 
> Humans can do more than the Elves could as they were not limited by the Music. Also, Humans did not become primary because the Elves were leaving. The Elves were leaving because Men were to have dominion after the end of the Third Age of the World.



What human magic are you talking about? The elves were never intended to stay in ME. The Valar loved them and always desired/commanded they go West. Most elves after thousands of years were fading.

"As ages passed the dominance of their fëar ever increased, 'consuming' their bodies (as has been noted). The end of this process is their 'fading', as Men have called it; for the body becomes at last, as it were, a mere memory held by the fëa; and that end has already been achieved in many regions of Middle-earth, so that the Elves are indeed deathless, and may not be destroyed or changed.".(Of the Laws and Customs Among the Eldar)

The rings held that in check for awhile. Afterward, most elves obeyed the command gladly. But to say that did not have anything to do with what I said, "...the leaking of magic..." is incorrect.


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## Gothmog

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> This is true, but Human "magic" seems to be stretching the term "magic". How are you defining it?


In the same way as Galadriel


> `And you? ' she said, turning to Sam. 'For this is what your folk would call magic. I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem also to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy. But this, if you will, is the magic of Galadriel. Did you not say that you wished to see Elf-magic?


Those abilities that came from Eru. Elves could only work within the Music while Men could go beyond it.


Ithilethiel said:


> What human magic are you talking about?


See above. 


Ithilethiel said:


> The elves were never intended to stay in ME. The Valar loved them and always desired/commanded they go West. Most elves after thousands of years were fading.


It does not matter what the Valar wanted or desired. The fact is that Men were to have dominion after the Third age by the design of Eru to use their gifts from him in the manner they chose.


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## Ithilethiel

You begin disagreeing about one thing then end with another.


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## Gothmog

Ithilethiel said:


> You begin disagreeing about one thing then end with another.


In what way? I was pointing out that the wishes of the Valar had nothing to do with what was happening. It was the intention of Eru that decided what was to happen with Elves and Men.


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## Ithilethiel

Your original argument concerned my observation of the ongoing, "...leaking of magic..." in ME within the literary trilogy. I don't believe you read my entire original post. You merely cherry-picked a part of a sentence to disagree with. I dont mind disagreement. I'm always up for a good debate but it's poor form to disregard the entirety of a post for a few words and then present an argument that is in opposition to an argument I never made.


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## Gothmog

Yes my original and my present argument concerns your observation of "leaking of magic" So where am I arguing some other point?
And I did read the entire post. Since I had no disagreement with the majority of it, I did not "Cherry-pick" I "Picked" the part I disagreed with. I gave my view of that part and have been defending that view, and that view only since.


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## Ithilethiel

Have you? We must agree to disagree as I cannot know how one could not agree that Tolkien employed fewer and fewer instances of magic (elven bc you have given no clear example of human "magic") as the trilogy came to a close.


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## Gothmog

Elven "magic" is simply the abilities that Elves were given by Eru. This "magic" was limited by The Music of the Ainur. Human "magic" was the abilities that Men were given by Eru. This "Magic" could go beyond The Music of the Ainur.

As for me giving instances of Human Magic. Tolkien did not give clear examples of Elven "Magic" as he stated that was simply the ability to work with nature but how this was achieved was not shown.

The problem is in the use of a meaningless word "Magic". Which is why I used the same definition as Galadriel.


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## Ithilethiel

Nice chatting with you.


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## Gothmog

And you


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## Grond

Gothmog said:


> And you


Magic was never defined in Tolkien's world. We have talking purses and sentient rings of power. Was the purse human magic or troll magic? 😀

Magic as you seem to define it, wasn't leaking from the world, it simply stopped when the One Ring was destroyed. Would any of the elven "magic" have worked after the Ring's destruction? I think not. 

Think about this... the dominion of the elves, and their magic, ended with the vanquishing of Sauron. I've always asserted that all of the Noldorin magic was evil related to Feanor's making of the Simarils and the evil oath of the Noldor. Bad, bad Feanor!!


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## Ithilethiel

Magic is not the best word, I actually prefer supernatural which I stated later in the post. Everyone seems to be missing the point of my OP. It concerned itself with Tolkien using less and less elven means and more human means as a segue to the age of man. That was the point I was attempting to make. Tolkien after all was the true Creator. We must always take our cue from him.


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## Grond

Ithilethiel said:


> Magic is not the best word, I actually prefer supernatural which I stated later in the post. Everyone seems to be missing the point of my OP. It concerned itself with Tolkien using less and less elven means and more human means as a segue to the age of man. That was the point I was attempting to make. Tolkien after all was the true Creator. We must always take our cue from him.


Someone please provide a better definition of magic or supernatural. How's about an example of second age magic that isn't related to the Valar or Maiar?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner

Tolkien explained his conception in one of the Letters, I don't have my copy with me, I'm afraid.


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## Grond

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Tolkien explained his conception in one of the Letters, I don't have my copy with me, I'm afraid.


Letter 125 offers little insight. I still assert that, intentional or not, all magic on Middle-earth has it's origins in the true supernatural Valar and Maiar.


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## Gothmog

These are the Supernatural events during the ages of Arda. 1. The Creation, 2, The Acceptance of the Dwarves, 3. The Coming of the Firstborn, 4. The Coming of the Atani, 5. Changing the fate of Luthien and possibly Tuor, 6. The Re-shaping of Arda. Each of these were the acts of Eru alone and were beyond the power of the Valar. The Valar had the greatest power within Arda but this was limited to what was already in the Music and they had to work with what had been created and within the rules set out. So what they did was Natural in terms of Arda. As for the Elves and their "Magic":
From Letter 131


> I have not used 'magic' consistently, and indeed the Elven-queen Galadriel is obliged to remonstrate with the Hobbits on their confused use of the word both for the devices and operations of the Enemy, and for those of the Elves. I have not, because there is not a word for the latter (since all human stories have suffered the same confusion). But the Elves are there (in my tales) to demonstrate the difference. Their 'magic' is Art, delivered from many of its human limitations: more effortless, more quick, more complete (product, and vision in unflawed correspondence). And its object is Art not Power, sub-creation not domination and tyrannous re-forming of Creation.


So the Elven "magic" was simply their ability to work better with nature than Men ever could. The Valar, The Elves, and Men each have different abilities given by Eru Where the Valar have the greatest control over the substance of Arda and Men have the least. But The Valar and the Elves are constrained by the Music and cannot bring in anything new after the creation. Men on the other hand have the ability to go beyond the Music and therefore are the ones in Arda that can come closest to performing "Supernatural" actions.


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## Olorgando

Gothmog said:


> … Men on the other hand have the ability to go beyond the Music and therefore are the ones in Arda that can come closest to performing "Supernatural" actions.


Ehwot?!? A statement that, said to any conclave of Men, would probably be accompanied by the sound of jaws dropping to the floor! From Men’s point of view, the supernatural would very definitely be associated with the Elves, and much more massively with the Valar / Maiar – though Men’s knowledge of the latter basically varied between minimal and nil. As also seems clearly to be the case of their knowledge of any part of the Music, never mind their supposed ability to go beyond it (Eru very definitely needs a new PR advisor for Arda!).

And perhaps the salient point is, whatever Men’s ability to go beyond the Music may have been, it doesn’t seem to have anything to do with their abilities *in* Arda. The only thing I can dig out of dim memory is Men’s abilities to leave Arda after death, while the Elves and those Ainur which had entered Arda were bound to it “for the duration” (except for Morgoth, booted out into the void – but he wants back in at the end, it seems).

And Eru’s statement to Melkor: “And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, *nor can any alter the music in my despite*. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.” I vaguely remember that Melkor, author of extremes of heat (fire) and frost, had changed Ulmo’s design of water - perhaps the heat producing clouds? memory fails here - but very definitely the frost producing snow (flakes), which Ulmo had not devised. But that’s about it, to my recollection (certainly very little more) of how Melkor’s violence had produced anything good. And taking the bold italic sentence at face value, then Melkor’s mass murder of Elves and Humans, including the direct personal murder of Fingolfin, the horrendous desolation of vast areas around Angband (and later Mordor) … all this was part of the music from the beginning as envisioned by Eru. That PR advisor I mentioned above had better be very, _very_, *very* good!


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## Elthir

My interpretation of the statement in question has to do with fate and free will. It has nothing to do with magic in my opinion, unless one is going to use that term to describe this interpretation.

I agree with CFH when he wrote:

"What is tricky, though, is that it is equally clear in the _Ainulindalë_ passage that Tolkien is _not_ thinking _only_ of this, for the passage reads:  "Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but _they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world_, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else" (emphasis added). Very clearly this special virtue that Men are given is operative _within_ the World and throughout Men's lives, not merely in their ultimate destiny. 

And so I can readily understand Verlyn's take on this: if one uses this passage as the basis upon and lens through which all other _published_ evidence is evaluated, and if one equates this "virtue" with "free will", it is easy to argue that Elves do not have free will. I'm not saying it makes for a convincing or satisfying argument -- after all, none of the Elves ever act as though they _don't_ have free will, and in fact they are often presented as having to make crucial choices with serious consequences (moral and otherwise); while Frodo and other Men are often described as fated (or possibly so) -- but it is an easy and obvious argument to make. 

But I begin my paper by noting that Tolkien does _not_ say here that Men have a unique gift of "free will", but rather that they are given a "virtue". Verlyn assumes they mean the same thing; I submit they do not: virtue is _ability_ and _strength_ and _efficacy_, not merely will (i.e., purpose or intent). Moreover, if Verlyn is right, it is very hard to explain (in addition to the points I allude to above) the existence and content of the unpublished notes I presented, which discuss the Elvish thought on the roles of fate and _free will_ within the World and make no mention of any limitation of free will to Men. What it does do is draw distinctions between what Men mean by "fate" and what Elves mean by it, and as to the "given conditions" within which will is constrained to operate. And that, I think, is what we must do as well: what does "fate" mean in the _Ainulindalë_ passage? What does the Music of the Ainur, which is "as fate", encompass, and so what exactly are its constraints, that Men alone can go beyond? And just as importantly, what does the Music _not_ encompass and constrain? And what are the "powers and chances of the world", amid which the special virtue of Men operates? And are fate and free will really at odds with each other? (As I have said, I submit in my paper they are not.) Tolkien touches on all these points, both in the unpublished notes and in numerous published writings (particularly _Letters_)." 

Carl F. Hostetter


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## Olorgando

Galin said:


> ... _they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world_, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else"
> ... virtue is _ability_ and _strength_ and _efficacy_, not merely [free] will
> … what does "fate" mean in the _Ainulindalë_ passage? What does the Music of the Ainur, which is "as fate", encompass, and so what exactly are its constraints, that Men alone can go beyond? And just as importantly, what does the Music _not_ encompass and constrain? And what are the "powers and chances of the world", amid which the special virtue of Men operates?
> Carl F. Hostetter


I can't say that Hostetter (certainly an eminent JRRT scholar) satisfies my curiosity.
He takes the (very) abstract concept "virtue" and "defines" it by three further abstract concepts.
I think he actually makes things worse in one way, as "virtue" would generally, as I understand it, be taken as being positive.
“Ability” and “strength” and “efficacy”, by contrast, are ambivalent, or if you will, “neutral”, it depends upon in service to what or whom, and to what ends they are used.
It's and old argument (at least I've heard it voiced in Germany) between "primary virtues" and "secondary virtues."
It boiled up in an argument between two German politicians (of the same party), when one snapped that the "secondary virtues" touted by the other (rightly so, *in the correct circumstances*), I think "efficiency", "discipline" and "punctuality" were specifically mentioned, could be used to run a concentration camp.
The other politician was offended (and perhaps personally hurt) by this statement. And as high an opinion as I have of him, here I think his reaction was dead wrong.
These (and other) "secondary virtues" *were (mis-) used to run the Nazi concentrations camps!*

I listed the questions above because there is no way I could have posed them better.
I'd just like to hear some answers - at least plausible hypotheses, as we're not going to get quasi-mathematical "proofs" about any of this.

Just one last thought, about what the Music does _not_ encompass and *constrain*?
The cataclysmic violence of Morgoth, then Sauron, and their minions, does not seem to have been very much constrained. Not even against the Eruhini. Fat lot of good their "special virtues" did men among the Eruhini against "powers and chances of the world" that these "fated by the Music" beings represented.


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## Elthir

I think CFH's meaning is clear enough. He's employing one of the various dictionary definitions of virtue: _"an effective force; power or potency: effective, active, or inherent power or force."_

In other words, Men have been given a greater power than Elves to shape their lives with respect to the Music, whereas Verlyn Flieger had stated that Elves have no free will to _affect the external world_.

In any case, the main point is that I don't see this quote as having anything to do with magic -- the type that can compel rivers to knock about Nazguls, or cast a Vala to sleep, and so on -- unless *Gothmog* means this power to shape their own lives is a kind of magic in itself; but even if so, I don't think it extends to magical abilities such as the Elves demonstrate with their art.


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## Olorgando

Galin said:


> I think CFH's meaning is clear enough. He's employing one of the various dictionary definitions of virtue: _"an effective force; power or potency: effective, active, or inherent power or force."_


That set a bee to buzzing around my bonnet (and in the crumbled ruins of my Latin schooling from 1970 to 1973)
Virtue from Latin "virtus", (derived from _vir_, their word for _man_), referring to all of the "excellent qualities of _men_ ...
The etymology has shifted a wee bit in the last two millennia or so … 


Galin said:


> In other words, Men have been given a greater power than Elves to shape their lives with respect to the Music, ...


That word "great" and its variants can be bothersome when not giving it careful thought … 
But in absolute terms, this "greater power" or "virtue" can shrink to insignificance if faced with one of the *singers* of that Music, certainly Morgoth, possibly Sauron.
_(I really can't picture the Balrogs singing; but nowadays, for some sectors of Heavy Metal - they could be real smash hits at the Wacken HM festival in Germany!) 😄_
Shaping lives in any way kind of goes out the widow when you belong to the victims of the mass murders perpetrated by these "worthies".
The Valar became very reticent about intervening in Middle-earth at some point. They sort of failed to make sure that *all* singers of (or even just listeners to) the Music did the same.


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## Elthir

This might be something (as in, not nothing): JRRT, draft letter 155:




> "Anyway, a difference in the use of "magic" in this story is that it is not to be come by by "lore" or spells; but it is an inherent power not possessed or attainable by Men as such. Aragorn's "healing" might be regarded as "magical", or at least a blend of magic with pharmacy and "hypnotic" processes. But it is (in theory) reported by hobbits who have very little notions of philosophy and science; while Aragorn is not pure "Man", but at long remove one of the "children of Luthien".



But even Tolkien catches himself, noting to . . . himself: "But the Numenoreans used "spells" in making swords?"

Despite the Numenoreans, this explanation seems (to me) to be at odds with Men being able to surpass Elves in magic. Men are good at trickery though!

🐾


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## Gothmog

You keep using the word Magic. I do not think it means what you think it means 

Science, when sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic


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## Squint-eyed Southerner

But it isn't magic. Which is why I asked what you meant by "Human Magic".

It now seems you meant "technology" (I believe that was the word Clarke originally used) -- which, as I said before, would be stretching the meaning of the word far out of anything Tolkien would have recognized.


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## Miguel

Grond said:


> Someone please provide a better definition of magic or supernatural. How's about an example of second age magic that isn't related to the Valar or Maiar?




_Of The Rings of Power and The Third Age:_


> Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings,* sorcerers*, and warriors of old.


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## Gothmog

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> But it isn't magic. Which is why I asked what you meant by "Human Magic".
> 
> It now seems you meant "technology" (I believe that was the word Clarke originally used) -- which, as I said before, would be stretching the meaning of the word far out of anything Tolkien would have recognized.


Abilities possessed by one group would be seen as a form of "magic" by a group that does not possess the same abilities. And no I do not mean "technology".

Science and technology are not the same thing just as Art and technology are not the same thing. However, Art, Technology, and Science are all linked. Each one can lead to either or both of the others. The Palantiri can be looked at as technology arising from Elven Art while Television can be looked at as technology arising from Human Science with each performing the same function.
Elves would see Plantiri as "Natural" and Television as "Magic". Men would see Plantiri as "Magic" and Television as "Natural".


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## Elthir

Gothmog said:


> You keep using the word Magic. I do not think it means what you think it means
> Science, when sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic



But in my last post Tolkien basically explains (with respect to his story): "it is an inherent power not possessed or attainable by Men as such"

Can you provide a specific example of "human magic" that could be seen as arguably surpassing the Elves (which appears to be your argument).
It doesn't have to be from JRRT, but it will help pin down what you mean by "magic".

*Gothmog* wrote: _"Abilities possessed by one group would be seen as a form of "magic" by a group that does not possess the same abilities."_

And in the context of Tolkien's world, generally speaking, Men do not possess the magical abilities of the Elves. So what are some abilities that Men now possess that are "supernatural"? Or are you saying that Men can, someday, surpass the Elves with respect to "magic"?


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## Gothmog

Well try telling me who says the Elves have any magic whatsoever?


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## Elthir

JRR Tolkien 

For example, if magic _"is an inherent power not possessed or attainable by Men as such"_, who, within Tolkien's world, does possess this inherent power? In the letter quoted earlier, when Tolkien refers to "their" magic as art, he is referring to his Elves, who also demonstrate magic in the stories.

Beren did not cast Morgoth to sleep, and had no inherent ability to do so. Galadriel does not correct Sam that her mirror is called magical, rather she is confused that the same word is used for the deceits of the Enemy.

Again, can you give us an example of what you mean by human magic.


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## Gothmog

Did he?
Letter 131


> I have not used 'magic' consistently, and indeed the Elven-queen Galadriel is obliged to remonstrate with the Hobbits on their confused use of the word both for the devices and operations of the Enemy, and for those of the Elves. I have not, because there is not a word for the latter (since all human stories have suffered the same confusion). But the Elves are there (in my tales) to demonstrate the difference. Their 'magic' is Art, delivered from many of its human limitations: more effortless, more quick, more complete (product, and vision in unflawed correspondence).


In the story it is Men (and Hobbits) that refer to Elven Magic. Ask the Elves and they will not know what you are talking about. What Men call Magic is to the Elves Art and Natural.

Can you give me an example of what the Elves would consider Elven Magic?


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## Olorgando

My hair is getting thin enough as it is (though I have not progressed to the stage of having a tonsure like that required of members of some Catholic monastic orders), so putting an end to my scratching my head at terms flying around the posts here with probably variant definitions meant by each poster would make at least three people happy: my wife, myself, and the people at the very close establishment where I get my hair cut (they would like to keep my business). 

Suggested postulate 1: Magic is supernatural
Suggested postulate 1: *super*-natural depends on a specific viewpoint of what is *natural* to a given people

So, to us run-of-the-mill humans, Dwarves are super-natural in commonly reaching 250 years as old age. 
_(Of course, even to Dwarves and their recorded Methuselah Dwalin at 340, Elros’s 500 and the 400-plus of many of his royal Númenórean descendants would have been “super-natural”. And never mind the humans of Middle-earth whose generations saw Tar-Aldarion popping up on their coasts for maybe 300 years, just a paltry 12 generations.) _

Again Dwarves vs. Men: the nine Men who were given (lesser) Great Rings all ended up as Ring-wraiths. None of the Dwarves given similar (lesser) Great Rings, nor any of their heirs, ever showed the slightest sign of wraithing in this sense (and none ever became invisible).

For *all* mortals, Elven longevity was seriously super-natural _(I mean Elrond was more than 19 times as old as Dwalin when he took the ship for the Undying Lands – and never mind Galadriel or even that bearded Elf Cirdan, with him we’re talking 100 times Dwalin’s age, by some writings)_. And besides that, the Elves’ resistance to weather extremes, or sickness was even beyond that f the Dwarves.

For the Valar (and to a lesser degree Maiar), “super-natural” does not make much sense – at least from a human perspective.

Any humans (besides the Númenóreans, but they also had their great age – though still “sub-biblical” – from Eru, the super-natural for all of Arda and then some) that showed super-natural qualities, I’m obviously (I hope) thinking of the Nazgûl, received their super-natural abilities from a being far above their nature.

Which leaves me with that supposed “virtue” of Men beyond the “constraints” (what were these? Hostetter asks but does not answer) of the Music. Seems to me to be a dogmatic (i.e. taken on “faith” and not discussed further) pronouncement. Perhaps unavoidable in a cosmos created by JRRT. But to me nothing is less satisfactory than pronouncements of dogma. Gets me severely itchy.


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## Elthir

Gothmog said:


> Did he? [snip quote] In the story it is Men (and Hobbits) that refer to Elven Magic. Ask the Elves and they will not know what you are talking about. What Men call Magic is to the Elves Art and Natural.




Yet does this mean that the Elves do not have inherent powers beyond Men? Or that the Elves are unaware that they have inherent abilities beyond that of Men?

I see nothing wrong with using the word magic here. Tolkien chose it too, obviously, as long as we keep in mind that the Elvish powers are real, and not simply Men's deceit (which Men call magic even today).

🐾


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## Olorgando

Galin said:


> … And CFH also notes: _"Very clearly this special virtue that Men are given is operative within the World and throughout Men's lives, not merely in their ultimate destiny. "..._


Noted. But I can get very pig-headed. 🐷
How does this "virtue" ever manifest itself in any of JRRT's writings? Does he (I care not if CFH or JRRT himself) ever give a specific example? 😡
My answer (so far) remains no. And the statement (by CFH, not JRRT, granted) remains a dogmatic one, in the negative sense I posted above. "Just believe me".
And I would propose that it never helped Men against the murderous "singers" Morgoth or Sauron. (Valar dereliction of duty again and again.)
A "virtue" that in these specific, life-threatening and often -ending circumstances, was a case for the dustbin.


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## Elthir

Gothmog said:


> [snip m-word] The Valar, The Elves, and Men each have different abilities given by Eru Where the Valar have the greatest control over the substance of Arda and Men have the least. But The Valar and the Elves are constrained by the Music and cannot bring in anything new after the creation. Men on the other hand have the ability to go beyond the Music and therefore are the ones in Arda that can come closest to performing "Supernatural" actions.




Let's try it without the m-word 💫

Can you give us an example of a "supernatural action" that Men can perform due to (as you believe is the case with respect to the Music quote) their not being limited by the Music.


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## Grond

Miguel said:


> _Of The Rings of Power and The Third Age:_


The Ring's of Power = Sauron = Maia. My challenge still stands.


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## Grond

Galin said:


> JRR Tolkien
> 
> For example, if magic _"is an inherent power not possessed or attainable by Men as such"_, who, within Tolkien's world, does possess this inherent power? In the letter quoted earlier, when Tolkien refers to "their" magic as art, he is referring to his Elves, who also demonstrate magic in the stories.
> 
> Beren did not cast Morgoth to sleep, and had no inherent ability to do so. Galadriel does not correct Sam that her mirror is called magical, rather she is confused that the same word is used for the deceits of the Enemy.
> 
> Again, can you give us an example of what you mean by human magic.


This comes in line with my assertion that all "magic" has it's origins in the Ainur (Valar and Maiar). Luthien was the daughter of a Maia who, indeed, inherited "magic" from her mother and was not an inherent ability of the Elves nor Men.


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## Gothmog

Letter 131


> I have not used 'magic' consistently, and indeed the Elven-queen Galadriel is obliged to remonstrate with the Hobbits on their confused use of the word both for the devices and operations of the Enemy, and for those of the Elves. I have not, because there is not a word for the latter (since all human stories have suffered the same confusion).


Magic, as we understand it, does not exist in Arda. It is a word used by Men to refer to abilities they do not have and whose workings they do not understand. The arguments on here are saying that the Elves have “Magic” and Men do not. Now, since what Men call “Elven-magic” the Elves call “Art” then Men must have something that would be comparable and therefore would be “Human-magic” (abilities that the Elves do not have and whose workings they do not understand).

To claim there is “Elven-magic” but not “Human-magic” is to say that Eru must have looked at the Quendi and the Atani and said, The Quendi are the ones worthy of great gifts and are the ones deserving of my love. The Atani are worthless and are to be swept into the rubbish-heap of Middle-earth while my favoured children live in bliss in Aman.

Now, what does Eru actually say of the Quendi and the Atani?


> For it is said that after the departure of the Valar there was silence, and for an age Ilúvatar sat alone in thought. Then he spoke and said: 'Behold I love the Earth, which shall be a mansion for the Quendi and the Atani! But the Quendi shall be the fairest of all earthly creatures, and they shall have and shall conceive and bring forth more beauty than all my Children; and they shall have the greater bliss in this world. But to the Atani I will give a new gift.' Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest.
> But Ilúvatar knew that Men, being set amid the turmoils of the powers of the world, would stray often, and would not use their gifts in harmony; and he said. 'These too in their time shall find that all that they do redounds at the end only to the glory of my work.' yet the Elves believe that Men are often a grief to Manwë, who knows most of the mind of Ilúvatar; for it seems to the Elves that Men resemble Melkor most of all the Ainur, although he has ever feared and hated them, even those that served him.
> It is one with this gift of freedom that the children of Men dwell only a short space in the world alive, and are not bound to it, and depart soon whither the Elves know not.


Elves have over their long lives and also through contact with, and instruction from, the Valar so developed their Art as to be beyond the abilities and understanding of Men. This Art comes from an understanding of the Nature of Arda and some power over it. Also it is limited by the Music of the Ainur and can only make limited alterations.

We can see from what Eru decided that Men have abilities that are to be comparable to the Art of the Elves and that this gift would allow Men to go further than the Elves in what they would be capable of. Since the Art of the Elves is connected with understanding of, and (some)control of, nature what then could be the comparable gift for Men?

The other discipline most concerned with understanding and controlling Nature would be Science.

The first Three ages are the time of the Elves and the Valar/Maiar. The of the War of the Ring is the end of this and the Elves and Maia are making their final departure from Middle-earth and clearing the way for the dominion of Men from the Fourth Age onwards. It is during the Fourth Age that the abilities of Men would come into their own. Until the end of the Third age Middle-earth was dominated by Melkor and the Maiar that he had corrupted. The period after the finding of the One Ring saw the end of the last of the most powerful of Melkor's corruption. Smaug died at Lake Town, Durin's Bane was destroyed by Gandalf and finally, Sauron was reduced to an impotent shadow.

So, what we are seeing throughout the Third Age is the gradual removal of Elves and their Art as after the start of the Fourth Age Elven Art and Elves themselves would begin to Fade in Middle-earth. It is the time of change where things get quiet between two different abilities, one leaving the other about to rise.


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## Elthir

Grond said:


> This comes in line with my assertion that all "magic" has it's origins in the Ainur (Valar and Maiar). Luthien was the daughter of a Maia who, indeed, inherited "magic" from her mother and was not an inherent ability of the Elves nor Men.



The quote you quoted that I quoted is from a draft letter written in 1954. Even _The Lord of the Rings_ hadn't been fully published at this point. And earlier in the letter, Tolkien had stated that: "Their magia the Elves and Gandalf use (sparingly): a magia, producing real results . . ." And later, same letter, he states that (as we know) magic is an inherent power not possessed or attainable by Men. I submit that the reader of this letter will naturally assume that Elves, generally speaking, have this inherent power, and that that is what Tolkien meant.

Moreover . . .

Felagund strove with Sauron in songs of power. Or the Nargothrondians pursued strangers "with wizardy" (among other things). The cloaks given to the Fellowship are magic. The word olos "vision, phantasy" is a Common Elvish name for "construction of the mind", not actually (pre)existing in Ea apart from the constructions, but by the Eldar capable of being by art (karme) made visible and sensible." (Unfinished Tales)

Note that this is a "Common Elvish" word, not common Elvish: Common Eldarin is the tongue developed from Primitive Quendian during the two and a half centuries the March from Cuiviénen to the sea lasted, thus, before the Eldar passed over sea where they would come in contact with the Valar (I haven't forgotten about Orome, but generally speaking).

The cloaks of Lorien are interesting here too. Compare the cloaks of the Mithrim, the Sindar of the North in the First Age (see WJ, _Quendi and Eldar_, author's note 11) which were already in use _before_ the Noldor returned to Middle-earth.


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## Olorgando

Gothmog said:


> … We can see from what Eru decided that Men have abilities that are to be comparable to the Art of the Elves and that this gift would allow Men to go further than the Elves in what they would be capable of. Since the Art of the Elves is connected with understanding of, and (some)control of, nature what then could be the comparable gift for Men?
> 
> The other discipline most concerned with understanding and controlling Nature would be Science.
> 
> The first Three ages are the time of the Elves and the Valar/Maiar. The of the War of the Ring is the end of this and the Elves and Maia are making their final departure from Middle-earth and clearing the way for the dominion of Men from the Fourth Age onwards. It is during the Fourth Age that the abilities of Men would come into their own. Until the end of the Third age Middle-earth was dominated by Melkor and the Maiar that he had corrupted. The period after the finding of the One Ring saw the end of the last of the most powerful of Melkor's corruption. Smaug died at Lake Town, Durin's Bane was destroyed by Gandalf and finally, Sauron was reduced to an impotent shadow.
> 
> So, what we are seeing throughout the Third Age is the gradual removal of Elves and their Art as after the start of the Fourth Age Elven Art and Elves themselves would begin to Fade in Middle-earth. It is the time of change where things get quiet between two different abilities, one leaving the other about to rise.


Science, and then technology (I think this may be the difference between the scientist and the engineer?), and then to really mess things up bankers rushing IPOs of all kinds of fledgling something-tech companies into Wall Street and Co. while dollar signs spin madly in their eyes …

For the first two, we have in LoTR (as Bilbo was meant to be a “stealth weapon” by being recognizable as “us” – that “us” being Edwardian Englishmen, though – to get under the “radar” of suspected “modernist” cynicism of readers) Saruman. “He has a mind of metal and wheels _(doubtless to be supplemented by “plastics” nowadays)_; and he does not care for growing things, except as far as they serve him for the moment.” (Treebeard in the LoTR chapter named after him.)

As JRRT’s skepticism about this (my favorite is the “infernal combustion engine”) is more that adequately documented, I have serious problems that this rise of science and technology etc. can be what Eru (which means JRRT) could have meant as “a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur”!

But … oh dear … to pinch a quote from your quote above: “… yet the Elves believe that Men are often a grief to Manwë, who knows most of the mind of Ilúvatar; for it seems to the Elves that Men resemble Melkor most of all the Ainur …”. JRRT being cautious in his statements, as he is so often (to the delight, I would guess, of all of his fans on sites like this, leaving plenty of wiggle – or niggle - room).

Who says that this “shaping … beyond the Music of the Ainur” is good?

You mentioned Smaug, Durin’s Bane and Sauron above. Add Saruman. But that last one seems to have left not a few successors.


----------



## Miguel

Grond said:


> The Ring's of Power = Sauron = Maia. My challenge still stands.



I'm aware. I'm wondering if they became kings, *sorcerers* and warriors once they got the rings or if they were already all of these and became greater thanks to them?. In case of the later - How did those sorcerers become as such, were some of them Drúedain or learned from them?.


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## Elthir

Gothmog said:


> Magic, as we understand it, does not exist in Arda. It is a word used by Men to refer to abilities they do not have and whose workings they do not understand.



Thus the abilities exist, abilities, as you say, Men do not have.




> Now, since what Men call “Elven-magic” the Elves call “Art” then Men must have something that would be comparable and therefore would be “Human-magic” (abilities that the Elves do not have and whose workings they do not understand). To claim there is “Elven-magic” but not “Human-magic” is to say that Eru must have looked at the Quendi and the Atani and said, The Quendi are the ones worthy of great gifts and are the ones deserving of my love. The Atani are worthless and are to be swept into the rubbish-heap of Middle-earth while my favoured children live in bliss in Aman.



In my opinion, it is certainly not to say that. Tolkien has Eru give Men different gifts. I've seen something like this claim before where some readers find it "unfair" of Eru to give Elves long life, or try to equal things out by claiming Elves cease to exist at the end of the world (not so, in any case).



> Now, what does Eru actually say of the Quendi and the Atani?



Eru says these things:


A) the Quendi shall be the fairest of all earthly creatures
B) they shall have and shall conceive and bring forth more beauty than all his Children
C) they shall have the greater bliss in this world

A) a "new" gift: the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein
B) but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest.

B1) It is one with this gift of freedom that the children of Men dwell only a short space in the world alive, and are not bound to it, and depart soon whither the Elves know not.

Eru speaks of freedom, and the ability of Men to shape their lives in the context of fate (the Music which is as fate). Nothing here about Men being given not only the magical abilities of the Elves, but the power to surpass them with (your word) "supernatural" abilities.

Eru does not love one child over the other. But he did give them _different_ gifts. Each might envy the other (generally speaking), but any who do must look at these gifts with clearer eyes. And of course Men have a "power" to create art, just not magic art . . . as can be found in other fantasy books however, where Men can obtain magic by lore and so on, and thus create magical artifacts, or magic.


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## Gothmog

Galin said:


> Eru speaks of freedom, and the ability to shape their lives in the context of fate. Nothing here about Men being given not only the magical abilities of the Elves, but the power to surpass them with (your word) "supernatural" abilities.


Was it my word?
Let's see what I said


> Men on the other hand have the ability to go beyond the Music and therefore are the ones in Arda that can come closest to performing "Supernatural" actions.


I never even hinted that Men were given the magical abilities of the Elves but that they would have Equivalent abilities that the Elves would view in a simialr way as Men view their Arts.


Galin said:


> Thus the abilities exist, abilities, as you say, Men do not have.





Gothmog said:


> then Men must have something that would be comparable and therefore would be “Human-magic” (abilities that the Elves do not have and whose workings they do not understand).


So each has abilities the other doesn't.


Galin said:


> In my opinion, it is certainly not to say that. Tolkien has Eru give Men different gifts. I've seen something like this claim before where some readers find it "unfair" of Eru to give Elves long life, or try to equal things out by claiming Elves cease to exist at the end of the world (not so, in any case).


I don't find it unfair as Eru obviously treated both equally. The final fate of both Elves and Men are not known.


Galin said:


> Eru does not love one child over the other. But he did give them _different_ gifts. Each might envy the other (generally speaking), but any who do must look at these gifts with clearer eyes. And of course Men have a "power" to create art, just not magic art . . . as can be found in other fantasy books however, where Men can obtain magic by lore and so on, and thus create magical artifacts, or magic.


This is the point. Men can create art, painting, song, scupture and so on but no more than pretty pictures or sounds. the Elves Art takes it much further than that. They can use it to create a form of Technology that for the most part is less harmful. Men will be able to create their own Technology through their gift from Eru, and, it is likely that it will be more destructive.


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## Gothmog

Olorgando said:


> Science, and then technology (I think this may be the difference between the scientist and the engineer?), and then to really mess things up bankers rushing IPOs of all kinds of fledgling something-tech companies into Wall Street and Co. while dollar signs spin madly in their eyes …
> 
> For the first two, we have in LoTR (as Bilbo was meant to be a “stealth weapon” by being recognizable as “us” – that “us” being Edwardian Englishmen, though – to get under the “radar” of suspected “modernist” cynicism of readers) Saruman. “He has a mind of metal and wheels _(doubtless to be supplemented by “plastics” nowadays)_; and he does not care for growing things, except as far as they serve him for the moment.” (Treebeard in the LoTR chapter named after him.)
> 
> As JRRT’s skepticism about this (my favorite is the “infernal combustion engine”) is more that adequately documented, I have serious problems that this rise of science and technology etc. can be what Eru (which means JRRT) could have meant as “a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur”!
> 
> But … oh dear … to pinch a quote from your quote above: “… yet the Elves believe that Men are often a grief to Manwë, who knows most of the mind of Ilúvatar; for it seems to the Elves that Men resemble Melkor most of all the Ainur …”. JRRT being cautious in his statements, as he is so often (to the delight, I would guess, of all of his fans on sites like this, leaving plenty of wiggle – or niggle - room).
> 
> Who says that this “shaping … beyond the Music of the Ainur” is good?
> 
> You mentioned Smaug, Durin’s Bane and Sauron above. Add Saruman. But that last one seems to have left not a few successors.


Both Science (Men) and Art (Elves) can give rise to technology. Each would be different and probably unrecognisable to the other.

As for the shaping beyond the Music of the Ainur. It would only be good by the design and intent of Eru. To quote again from the Silmarillion:


> Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil yet be good to have been.'
> But Mandos said: 'And yet remain evil.


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## Elthir

Gothmog said:


> Was it my word? Let's see what I said [snip] I never even hinted that Men were given the magical abilities of the Elves . . . but that they would have Equivalent abilities that the Elves would view in a simialr way as Men view their Arts.



Well, you hinted that Men could surpass the Elves (who I would say have supernatural abilities), with respect to "supernatural actions" (surpass them due to not being constrained by the Music). If these equivalent abilities produce supernatural actions. . . well, maybe forgive my confusion that you did not mean _Elvish_ supernatural actions. Yet we don't really know the true extent of the Elvish abilities in any case!

Anyway, your "must have" (above) seems predicated on the idea that to say Men do not have "human magic" means Eru thought the Atani worthless.



> I don't find it unfair as Eru obviously treated both equally. The final fate of both Elves and Men are not known.



But by this do you mean you agree then, that to say that Men do not have "human magic" is in no way to also say that Eru thought Men useless and unworthy? That is the point I was making anyway.



> This is the point. Men can create art, painting, song, scupture and so on but no more than pretty pictures or sounds. the Elves Art takes it much further than that. They can use it to create a form of Technology that for the most part is less harmful. Men will be able to create their own Technology through their gift from Eru, and, it is likely that it will be more destructive.



Wait . . . _technology_ now?


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## Olorgando

Gothmog said:


> Both Science (Men) and Art (Elves) can give rise to technology. Each would be different and probably unrecognisable to the other.


Elven "technology" being the Silmarils (possibly; but they lack an awful lot of characteristics of this; but then, bankers!!!!! _**shriek**_) and the Great Rings; all created by (or with help from) students of Aulë's or their descendants. That Valar smith is right behind Melkor in messing things up!


Gothmog said:


> As for the shaping beyond the Music of the Ainur. It would only be good by the design and intent of Eru. To quote again from the Silmarillion:
> _Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil yet be good to have been.
> But Mandos said: 'And yet remain evil.'_


So far I would say Mandos got it right; "_and evil yet be good to have been" _seems to be getting remoter rather than closer currently.


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## Gothmog

Olorgando said:


> Elven "technology" being the Silmarils (possibly; but they lack an awful lot of characteristics of this; but then, bankers!!!!! _**shriek**_) and the Great Rings; all created by (or with help from) students of Aulë's or their descendants. That Valar smith is right behind Melkor in messing things up!


Try the Palantiri

Also think of how the Silmarils where made. Perhaps some Technology needed for that?


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## Gothmog

Galin said:


> Well, you hinted that Men could surpass the Elves (who I would say have supernatural abilities), with respect to "supernatural actions" (surpass them due to not being constrained by the Music). If these equivalent abilities produce supernatural actions. . . well, maybe forgive my confusion that you did not mean _Elvish_ supernatural actions. Yet we don't really know the true extent of the Elvish abilities in any case!
> 
> Anyway, your "must have" (above) seems predicated on the idea that to say Men do not have "human magic" means Eru thought the Atani worthless.
> 
> 
> 
> But by this do you mean you agree then, that to say that Men do not have "human magic" is in no way to also say that Eru thought Men useless and unworthy? That is the point I was making anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> Wait . . . _technology_ now?


Elves do not have supernatural abilities though. Only Eru has abilities that are Supernatural and I did not say that Men would produce Supernatural actions. I said that they would come Closest to doing so.

Well. everyone arguing against seems to be pushing Men into a "Second Class position" something I totally disagree with.

No I state that Men have/had "Human Magic" that is abilities that Elves neither had nor could understand.

Define Technology.


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## Olorgando

Gothmog said:


> Try the Palantiri
> 
> Also think of how the Silmarils where made. Perhaps some Technology needed for that?


Science: Otto Hahn (and assistants) in 1938 discovering nuclear fission of Uranium (the heaviest then known naturally occurring element, with highest atomic number, 92) by bombarding it with neutrons (continuing experiments begun by Italy’s Enrico Fermi in 1934). Ironically, except for one outsider, everyone was expecting this to produce Elements with atomic numbers greater than 92 (the transuraniums, beginning with neptunium with 93, Plutonium with 94), rather than what Hahn & Co. found, fission (splitting heavy nuclei into smaller elements – what the outsider had hypothesized).
Technology: building the atomic bomb (and in the background lurks Einstein’s E=MCsquared)
Not all technology derived from science is quite as destructive.

Palantiri, yes, of course.

But with technology, I mean something developed to achieve some ends, or means to ends. That would very much mean the Great Rings (perhaps least of all the Three Elven Rings, which seem to have had quite different uses and functions), and the palantiri (though the concentration apparently needed to make them work would be a marketing and advertising nightmare in today’s “smart”phone market). The Silmarils didn’t have any such uses (Ancalagon might know one?). To craft them, I would think that Fëanor had developed his *art *(which might include smithcraft, but nothing we would today consider technology) to the perhaps maximum possible to Elves.


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## Gothmog

Elven technology would not necessarily be what we would expect to see. However, they do create jewels greater than they could mine. I think that would require a little more than a chant and a couple of taps of a hammer


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## Olorgando

Gothmog said:


> Elven technology would not necessarily be what we would expect to see. However, they do create jewels greater than they could mine. I think that would require a little more than a chant and a couple of taps of a hammer


Oh, quite. But then, perhaps people overrate the hammer in the whole affair. Fire, specifically getting the right amount of heat, is often far more important.
And with the Elves being interested in understanding the nature of things, who knows how far they had gotten with chemistry and physics (and never mind Aulë!), or for that matter biology and organic chemistry (here Yavanna would probably be the go-to Valar). I'm pretty sure they would have viewed this knowledge quite a bit differently than we do.
Unless one hypothesizes that the constraints of the Music of the Ainur, which also seem to bind the Valar to a degree, were such that even Aulë and Yavanna would be scratching their heads at some of the goings-on in our modern labs!


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## Elthir

Gothmog said:


> Elves do not have supernatural abilities though. Only Eru has abilities that are Supernatural and I did not say that Men would produce Supernatural actions. I said that they would come Closest to doing so.



Well, I was/am using a different meaning of the word supernatural, which is hopefully why I missed your emphasis on closest. I see now what you are trying to say, but in any case, I think you might be hanging a lot of your interpretation about what Men "must" have due to this . . .



> Well. everyone arguing against seems to be pushing Men into a "Second Class position" something I totally disagree with.



Well, Eru gave Men and Elves different gifts. One of them is that the Elves are fairer than Men. Oh well. We (humans) certainly have handsome men and beautiful women, but we'll just have to accept that the Elves are generally '"more" beautiful.

Another gift is that Elves have inherent magical abilities that Men do not have, and cannot attain. I am not claiming this hails from the quote you produced recently, which I broke down above, but this idea seems clear to me from the letter I added to the thread, and why JRRT is at pains to try to explain away how Aragorn can be seen to do something called magic. Nor am I going to stop using the word magic (not that anyone told me to) as Tolkien's readership is human and the word is used by Tolkien himself.

If anyone is interested, I recommend reading the conversation between Finrod and Andreth, or Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth, plus JRRT's commentary and notes (Morgoth's Ring), where I think one will find how important Men are in the Eruian scenario.

Or at least, an opinion on the matter, from Finrod himself.


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## Gothmog

Galin said:


> Well, I was/am using a different meaning of the word supernatural, which is hopefully why I missed your emphasis on closest. I see now what you are trying to say, but in any case, I think you might be hanging a lot of your interpretation about what Men "must" have due to this . . .


Supernatural is to be able to go beyond the natural laws/rules of the world. There is no evidence that the Elves could do this. They did however, have more control of nature through their Art than Man.


Galin said:


> Well, Eru gave Men and Elves different gifts. One of them is that the Elves are fairer than Men. Oh well. We (humans) certainly have handsome men and beautiful women, but we'll just have to accept that the Elves are generally '"more" beautiful.
> 
> Another gift is that Elves have inherent magical abilities that Men do not have, and cannot attain. I am not claiming this hails from the quote you produced recently, which I broke down above, but this idea seems clear to me from the letter I added to the thread, and why JRRT is at pains to try to explain away how Aragorn can be seen to do something called magic. Nor am I going to stop using the word magic (not that anyone told me to) as Tolkien's readership is human and the word is used by Tolkien himself.


Yes Elves and Men are different this doesn't mean one is better than the other. Elves have gifts that Men do not. Men have gifts that Elves do not. Either these gifts are equal or they are not. If not, why not? Aragorn does have a special place within the natural rules of Middle-earth due to his ancestry. As for Tolkien's use of the word "Magic" he states:


> I have not used 'magic' consistently,


And the reason for this with respect to the Elves:


> I have not, because there is not a word for the latter





Olorgando said:


> Unless one hypothesizes that the constraints of the Music of the Ainur, which also seem to bind the Valar to a degree, were such that even Aulë and Yavanna would be scratching their heads at some of the goings-on in our modern labs!


The Ainur had full freedom during the Music to "Jazz it up" and many took advantage of this at the time. When the Valar and the Maiar entered into Arda they could no longer add to the music. It was set and although they were Supernatural beings (that is they came from beyond Arda and existed before the Creation of Arda) they were constrained to work to the music and therefore by the natural laws of Arda. I would expect that even with their far greater knowledge and power they would be looking at what was being done and wondering how we were able to do THAT!!!


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## Elthir

Gothmog said:


> Supernatural is to be able to go beyond the natural laws/rules of the world. There is no evidence that the Elves could do this. They did however, have more control of nature through their Art than Man.



And which definition of "supernatural" are we going to pick from our dictionaries? _And once picked_, what does it mean to "go beyond" the "natural laws" of the world?

I'm not actually asking, as I think we will not work in each other's gardens here 



> As for Tolkien's use of the word "Magic" he states:



I'm aware of what Tolkien states in that letter. And as I said, he still uses the word to refer to the inherent abilities of the Elves. And so will I.

_"But this, if you will, is the magic of Galadriel. Did you not say you wished to see Elf-magic."_

Thank you Galadriel, and I do "will". I can quote Tolkien saying he wished he didn't use the word "Elves" to describe _his_ Elves; and yet he did, and the average Tolkien fan knows that if I employ "Elves" I don't mean little creatures with wings who live in flowers and enjoy tricking Edwardians.

"The feasting people were Wood-elves, of course. These are not wicked folk. If they have a fault it is distrust of strangers. Though their magic was strong, even in those days they were wary. [snip] There the Light-elves and the Deep-elves and the Sea-elves went and lived for ages, and grew fairer and wiser and more learned, and invented their magic and their cunning craft, in the making of beautiful and marvellous things, before some came back into the Wide World." JRRT, The Hobbit


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## Gothmog

Natural is that which can be done naturally. Supernatural by its very use of Super is something that cannot be done naturally. Many things that we take for granted today and use without a thought would be considered "Supernatural" as little as 200 years ago and regarded as very suspicious 100 years ago. The more that the natural world is understood, the more that can be done. Elves had a greater understanding of nature than did Men during the first three ages.



Galin said:


> "But this, if you will, is the magic of Galadriel. Did you not say you wished to see Elf-magic."


This is Galadriel saying. "I don't do "magic". But if you want to call it that then this is as close as it gets"



Galin said:


> Thank you Galadriel, and I do "will". I can quote Tolkien saying he wished he didn't use the word "Elves" to describe _his_ Elves; and yet he did, and the average Tolkien fan knows that if I employ "Elves" I don't mean little creatures with wings who live in flowers and enjoy tricking Edwardians.


There is a difference between Tolkien wishing he had not used the word "Elves" and his use of the word "Magic" as for the latter he stated that there is not a word for the way Elves employed their Art and therefore had to find some way to show that it was not "Magical" from the point of view of the Quendi.


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## Elthir

Gothmog said:


> Elves had a greater understanding of nature than did Men during the first three ages.



And an inherent power (not inherently possessed by Men) to do things humans consider magical.



> This is Galadriel saying. "I don't do "magic". But if you want to call it that then this is as close as it gets"



This is Galadriel understanding that her abilities are called magic by humans (you and I are humans), and so she herself uses the word.

And that is why I thanked her. And posted Tolkien using the word, because I too, will continue to use the word, while being aware of Tolkien's distinctions.



> There is a difference between Tolkien wishing he had not used the word "Elves" and his use of the word "Magic" as for the latter he stated that there is not a word for the way Elves employed their Art



And as for the former, the English word Elves did not describe Tolkien's Elves accurately, especially in the 1950s with its popular baggage. But yet he employed it, and Tolkien readers are aware of the distinctions. And I too, will continue to employ it.



> and therefore had to find some way to show that it was not "Magical" from the point of view of the Quendi.



But since it is magical from our perspective, and since the Quendi still possess inherent capabilities that even Tolkien referred to as magic in published sources, I'm still going to use the word. This is what I meant by: we will not work in each other's gardens. We can do this all day . . .

. . . but in any case, for me the matter boils here: your claim that if there is "Elvish magic" there must be "Human magic", and to say otherwise is to say that Eru considered Men unworthy or worthless.

That's your opinion, it seems, but I simply disagree.

Moreover, the quote you raised in effort to support this opinion, does not speak to "Mannish magic", it speaks of Men given a "new" gift, in which Men can actually go beyond the Music with respect to fate. In short, I don't agree that this texts supports your opinion.


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## Gothmog

Galin said:


> And as for the former, the English word Elves did not describe his Elves accurately, especially in the 1950s with its popular baggage. But yet he employed it, and Tolkien readers are aware of the distinctions. And I too, will continue to employ it.


He was not happy because he could have used a different word for the Quendi. He could not use a different word for "Magic" because there was no other word he could use.


Galin said:


> But since it is magical from our perspective, and since the Quendi still possess inherent capabilities that even Tolkien referred to as magic in published sources, I'm still going to use the word. This is what I meant by: we will not work in each other's gardens. We can do this all day . . .


And Men possess inherent capabilities that the Quendi would not understand. Hence "Human Magic" by the same definitions.


Galin said:


> Moreover, the quote you raised in effort to support this opinion, does not speak to "Human magic" or "Mannish magic", it speaks of Men given a "new" gift, in which Men can actually go beyond the Music with respect to fate. In short, I don't agree that this texts supports your opinion.


How would you then describe the ability to go beyond the limits of the Music of the Ainur. Something that even the most powerful of the Valar could not?
Try to do so from the point of view of the Elves.


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## Elthir

Elves: "This old word was indeed the only one available . . ." (JRRT, Appendix F). But even if one could argue with this statement, what does it matter, since my point is merely that I will continue to use the word magic with respect to Elves, as JRRT himself does in published sources.




> And Men possess inherent capabilities that the Quendi would not understand. Hence "Human Magic" by the same definitions. How would you then describe the ability to go beyond the limits of the Music of the Ainur. Something that even the most powerful of the Valar could not? Try to do so from the point of view of the Elves.



I've already given my opinion about what Eru says in the quote you raised: the "new" gift to Men, the ability to shape their lives with respect to fate; which is why I would say the quote is fundamental in inspiring Tolkien experts like Verlyn Flieger and Carl Hosttetter to but heads with respect to fate and free will, Elves versus Men.


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## Gothmog

So then, Elves are merely puppets dancing to the strains of the Music. But Dwarves and Men have Free will. Ok.


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## Olorgando

… what does "fate" mean in the _Ainulindalë_ passage? What does the Music of the Ainur, which is "as fate", encompass, and so what exactly are its constraints, that Men alone can go beyond? And just as importantly, what does the Music _not_ encompass and constrain? And what are the "powers and chances of the world", amid which the special virtue of Men operates?
Carl F. Hostetter

I plaintively repeat Hostetter’s questions, and ask if he (or others) ever supplied plausible answers to them. And my own question “How does this "virtue" ever manifest itself in any of JRRT's writings?”
Would anyone recognize it if it did manifest itself? Would Men? Would the Elves? Would even the Valar? 😭


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## Gothmog

Free will is the the ability to choose freely between options. Fate is the circumstances, conditions, and forces beyond a persons control that give rise to the actual options they can choose between.

We are not given a view of the actual limits imposed by the Music therefore it is very difficult to see if it ever actually manifests in his writings. I doubt that Men or Elves would recognize it, but I imagine that the Valar or the Maiar could do so because of their knowledge of the Music. It does seem that Melkor had more problems with his dealings with Men than he did with Elves so that may indicate that they possibly had more options to choose from compared to the Elves in similar conditions.


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## Elthir

Gothmog said:


> So then, Elves are merely puppets dancing to the strains of the Music. But Dwarves and Men have Free will. Ok.




Verlyn Flieger argues that Elves have no free will with respect to altering events. She uses Feanor's choice (regarding the surrender of the Silmarils) as an illustration of events not being altered (and speaking more generally now) "but deeply influencing the inner nature of individuals involved in those events."

I disagree with her initial claim.

And I've already presented, at least very briefly, Carl Hostetter's response regarding this "virtue" given to Men. I can add a few more snippets, and hope CFH will forgive that I lift him out of the context of a discussion.

I'll also provide (below) some sources (on this matter) that I find interesting. The third article also argues that Elves have free will, despite the new gift given to Men. I realize some or all of these texts might be difficult or impossible to get now, but on the other hand I can't type everything here!

And don't want to 


______________________________


"Tolkien does not ascribe Free Will to Men (and by implication deny it to Elves) in any text save the very first pencil draft of what became "The _Ainulindale_". Already in the next, fair copy version Tolkien replaced the term "will" with "virtue"; and these terms are not interchangeable. Virtue is _power_ (i.e., ability and/or efficacy), not (simply) will (i.e., intent/choice). I submit that the usual dichotomy drawn between Fate and Free Will in these discussions is false. Tolkien makes it quite plain that Will is operative only _within_ "provided circumstances" (i.e. of the World (_ambar_) and of Fate (_umbar_); see _Letters_ p. 195): thus they are _not_ mutually exclusive terms."

[different response]

"Furthermore, Tolkien's own discussion in the unpublished note on "Fate and Free Will" certainly makes no claim or even implication that Free Will obtains only when there is an _ultimate_ consequence to its exercise. Rather, there, "free will" is defined as obtaining when (and only when, but by implication _always_ when) a determination of course (action or inaction) is made for a "fully-aware purpose", amid the physical conditions and processes of the world (_ambar_) and the network of chances within "fate" (_umbar_). As Tolkien says in _Letters_, Free Will is "derivative" (i.e., I take it, of God's will and of His creation of the world and of rational creatures which He endows with will) and therefore always operates "within provided circumstances". As these unpublished notes explain, these "circumstances" are both _ambar_ 'the world' and _umbar_ 'fate': and these are "provided", of course, ultimately by Eru himself. Obviously, exercises of Free Will so defined can have moral valuation, can even be "sinful", _within_ the world and apart from questions of one's _ultimate_ destiny, since they can either accord with or violate the moral standards of the world that ultimately also derive from Eru."

CF Hostetter

______________________________

Sources of possible interest:

The Music and the Task: Fate and Free Will in Middle-earth Verlyn Flieger. Tolkien studies VI
Notes And Documents: Fate and Free Will [Tolkien's notes on _Ambar_ and _Umbar_] presented by Carl Hostetter, Tolkien Studies VI
"Strange and free"—On Some Aspects of the Nature of Elves and Men, Thomas Fornet-Ponse Tolkien Studies VII


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## Gothmog

Galin said:


> "Tolkien does not ascribe Free Will to Men (and by implication deny it to Elves) in any text save the very first pencil draft of what became "The _Ainulindale_". Already in the next, fair copy version Tolkien replaced the term "will" with "virtue"; and these terms are not interchangeable. Virtue is _power_ (i.e., ability and/or efficacy), not (simply) will (i.e., intent/choice). I submit that the usual dichotomy drawn between Fate and Free Will in these discussions is false. Tolkien makes it quite plain that Will is operative only _within_ "provided circumstances" (i.e. of the World (_ambar_) and of Fate (_umbar_); see _Letters_ p. 195): thus they are _not_ mutually exclusive terms."


While I rarely use quotes from books written about Tolkien's world by anyone other than his son, in the quote you provided the part I have underlined is actually also the basis of my argument that the Elves would see this "Virtue" in the same way (or at least comparable to) how Men see their Art. That is both would view the other as "Magical".


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## Elthir

If it helps any, Christopher Tolkien gave these Ambar/Umbar notes to Carl Hostetter to publish/present, as well as plenty of other linguistic stuff over the years, to the Linguistic Editorial Team as a whole. I find CFH to be a unique Tolkien scholar, given his expertise on Tolkien/his work, coupled with his expertise on Tolkien's languages, and (as it appears to me) a notable knowledge of Catholicism.

That said, we fans can argue/disagree with anyone. Did I just say that on the internet?


I don't _always_ agree with Tolkien himself 😲


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## Gothmog

I did say I rarely quote other sources but I do read them when I can 

I know that some of the authors have been given direct access to source material not available to everyone and can help in learning about Tolkien's world and work.

Of course we can do so. Such discussions not only help us but can help others work out their own viewpoints


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## Ithilethiel

I think it is always wise to keep Tolkien's Catholicism in view when reading him. I don't wish to ignite another firestorm so I'll just leave it at that.


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## Gothmog

Ithilethiel said:


> I think it is always wise to keep Tolkien's Catholicism in view when reading him. I don't wish to ignite another firestorm so I'll just leave it at that.


Why? I was unaware of Tolkien's religious beliefs when I first read The Hobbit, Lord of the Rings, and The Silmarillion. My views of the books changed not at all after learning that he was a devout Catholic. While his beliefs make for an interesting layer when discussing his works it is Applicability in his writings that is more important in the reading.


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## ArwenStar

It makes sense that the Valar aren’t willing to help after the Numenor incident. Maybe the Istari is their help. They aren’t heartless. And really, they destroyed the ring in the end so... their help wasn’t crucial but would have been appreciated


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## Olorgando

ArwenStar said:


> It makes sense that the Valar aren’t willing to help after the Numenor incident.


Actually, that was nobody's fault but their own, too. Instead of clapping Sauron in irons and dragging him back to Valinor for sentencing (he did a *lot* of evil for Morgoth) they wimp out and let him run riot in Middle-earth for over 3000 years of the Second Age - and again for much of the *Third* Age. Dereliction of duty is what that was.


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## Gothmog

Olorgando said:


> Actually, that was nobody's fault but their own, too. Instead of clapping Sauron in irons and dragging him back to Valinor for sentencing (he did a *lot* of evil for Morgoth) they wimp out and let him run riot in Middle-earth for over 3000 years of the Second Age - and again for much of the *Third* Age. Dereliction of duty is what that was.


It seems from the what we are told about the Creation of Arda and the position of the Valar within it, in respect to Elves and Men they are required to give a minimum amount of help so as to allow them to progress as intended. However, it would seem that the only Vala who was consistently attempting to do this "Minimum interference" while doing what was required was Ulmo. The rest did far less than this level of work unless pushed into it.

Melkor was allowed free-reign for far too long before the Valar came and delt with him the first time and failed to include Sauron in the net on the second. Rather than doing the "Minimum required" they, for the most part, did the "Minimum possible".


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## Alcuin

I don’t to spend time digging up citations today, so I’m working purely from memory.

If I understand the story correctly, after Lúthien and Huan defeated him at Tol Sirion, Sauron hid himself, fearing the scorn, ridicule, and rebuke of Morgoth his master. He remained hidden for most of the rest of the First Age, and did not participate in the decades-long war fought between Morgoth and the Host of the Valar.

Following the War of Wrath, Sauron reappeared and presented himself to Eönwë and the victorious commanders of the Host of the Valar, suing for pardon – I don’t believe he was a belligerent in the war, because I think he was hiding from Morgoth – but was told that he would have to return to Valinor, where he knew he would have to spend an age of the world or more in labors to prove his renewed fidelity. These works, he understood, would include service to others, sometimes in menial positions to learn humility. His pride got the better of him: he feigned acquiescence, but slipped away at the first opportunity, and the Host of the Valar immediately lost track of him: Sauron was, after all, himself a master of disguises before the Downfall of Númenor, and as a Maia, he could still move “unclothed”, without physical form, at will.

As for the Valar intervening in Middle-earth, Tolkien lays out a plausible, if mythic, explanation. They placed themselves in the protected realm of Valinor to defend against the encroaches of Morgoth, against whom they early on, before Elves and Men, fought a war so dreadful they believed another such war could disrupt the very structure of Arda: their only response was to allow Morgoth to control part of Arda, or else altogether destroy it, which is what the nihilistic Morgoth desired.

Oromë travelled widely in Middle-earth and found the Elves at Cuiviénen. Morgoth, the Valar later determined, had already discovered them and taken some for his own vile purposes, twisting them into the earliest Orcs. Oromë argued that the Elves should be protected from Morgoth, and at his behest, led a great number of them to Beleriand, whence most proceeded to Eldamar, while some remained (searching for their leader Elu Thingol, who was lost in love with Melian in the forest).

The sojourn in Eldamar enriched the Eldar physically, mentally, and spiritually, but I think the Valar later saw this as an error they hoped to avoid a second time. They did not intervene to search for the Second People, Men, who soon fell under Morgoth’s dominion, though some later repented, the ancestors of the Edain and their kin. Besides this, the rebellious Noldor who followed Fëanor back to Middle-earth were under a Ban and were explicitly excluded from direct assistance until the embassy of Eärendil, when the Ban was lifted and the Host of the Valar returned to Beleriand. The subsequent War of Wrath destroyed that part of Middle-earth so that it sank beneath the waves.

Sauron, his Ruling Ring, and all the Rings of Power were works that belonged to Middle-earth. The Noldor of Eregion forged the Rings of Power to make their part of Middle-earth a counterfeit Eldamar, where they would be at the top of the social order rather than at the bottom, where their physical bodies (_hröar_) would no longer _fade_ in Middle-earth but remain stable and completely intact. Their coöperation and whole-hearted enthusiasm in this endeavor was, to a great extent, a second if lesser rebellion against the Valar, and so also a rebellion against Eru and the natural order of Arda.

Because of this, the Valar _could not_ permit _any_ of the Great Rings to cross the Sea into Valinor so long as the power of the Great Rings remained. It is true that Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel crossed the Sea with their Three Rings, but these were first untainted by Sauron, and furthermore had lost all their potency with the destruction of the One Ring.

Moreover, the Valar were from the beginning forbidden to overpower or overawe Elves or Men to dominate them. When the Númenóreans rebelled in the Second Age, they sent an embassy to Tar-Atanamir, which he rejected; later when Ar-Gimilzôr forbade the Eldar to land in Númenor, breaking physical contact between the Eldar in Eldamar and the Faithful Númenóreans, the Eldar supplied their Númenórean allies (Amandil, last Lord of Andúnië, and so his son Elendil the Tall, first High King of the Dúnedain in Middle-earth) with the palantíri so that they might remain in communication with one another; and we know that, although the Kings of Arnor no longer used Elendil’s stone to communicate with Eldamar after Elendil died, the Eldar continued to use it, sometimes seeing visions of Valinor, and – I believe – occasionally communicating with their kinfolk far away. (Elrond removed this stone when he left Middle-earth and returned it to Tol Eressëa, permanently breaking that communication.)

Tolkien suggests in his late essay on Glorfindel that Glorfindel returned to Middle-earth midway through the Second Age to help Gil-galad and the Elves of Lindon in the War Between the Elves and Sauron. This could only have taken place with the permission of the Valar – and perhaps, though not necessarily – the assistance of the Númenóreans, who were at that time still in complete harmony with the Eldar of Eldamar and Tol Eressëa.

After the Downfall of Númenor, when the Valar determined that Sauron was once again moving against Elves and Men in Middle-earth, they sent the Istari, the wizards, Maiar in the form of old men, to counter Sauron’s machinations. They were forbidden to dominate Elves or Men, and they rarely showed or used the extent of their power so long as they remained faithful to their charge. On two occasions Gandalf (the Grey) did partly reveal his native power: in Bilbo’s sitting room when Bilbo, under the influence of the Ring, started to draw his sword against Gandalf, causing Gandalf to seem suddenly larger; and later when the wargs attacked the Company of the Ring in Hollin, and he stood suddenly gigantic in the battle; in both instances, he did this to overcome the power of Sauron, first in the Ring operating on Bilbo, and in the second in Sauron’s werewolves. Gandalf the White revealed himself several times, but he was, it would seem, under instruction by Eru Himself, who returned Gandalf to Middle-earth after his physical demise.

The Valar were not inactive, nor were they neglectful of Middle-earth. They were themselves under command to intervene as little as possible. Aragorn’s use of _athelas_ hints at the intervention of the Valar; the dream-vision of Faramir and Boromir (“Seek for the sword that was broken…”) is a direct intervention by Elbereth; and Elves and Dúnedain take vows before the Valar (Arwen renouncing her Elven fate on Cerin Amroth with Aragorn; Éowyn at the Houses of Healing with Faramir (“I stand in Minas Anor, the Tower of the Sun…”); Cirion the Steward at the tomb of Elendil in ceding Calenardhon to Eorl and the Rohirrim, in which that Steward also named Eru as witness, a most solemn oath, later repeated by Aragorn to Éomer in the same place following his crowning as King of Gondor). Their foresight and intervention in sending the Istari was, in particular, pivotal to the Downfall of the Lord of the Rings.


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## Olorgando

Excellent summary, Alcuin.
To a degree, I truly have to address my gripes at Eru - which of course means JRRT.

The first big upheaval, after which the Valar high-tailed it out of what was to become Middle-earth and kind of hid in Valinor (Aman), was the destruction of the Two Lamps Illuin (north) and Ormal (south), as well as the destruction of the Valar's first abode in Arda, the isle of Almaren. (BTW I'm cheating by using my J.E.A. Tyler "Companion". No chance in Angband that I could do this from memory!  )

After an unknown time (at least the Valar managed to create the Two Trees in Valinor, so they weren't totally idle), Oromë, who practically alone of the Valar still came to M-e (Ulmo must have also done so in his own special way), found the Elves. Presto, suddenly the Valar feel that they can actually go out there and confront the _über_-baddie after all! OK, no records of the damage done, maybe like the drowning of Beleriand at the end of the First Age, though Utumno was very far in the north (but Melkor had already had Angband constructed a lot further to the west, facing Valinor, and placed it under the command of Sauron?), and those regions were severely damaged in Utumno's total destruction in the *Battle of the Powers*. But setting a precedent, they didn't get Angband totally "disinfected" - ant not only that. I can recall no mention of what happened to Sauron at this stage, or all those Balrogs (though JRRT, in contrast to that early description of the battle for Gondolin with Elves slaying them by the basketful, later once mentioned that there had only been seven of them), or lesser monsters that nonetheless posed challenges it later ages to all but the greatest heroes (and occasionally armies).

Manwë's blind side. That's been discussed ad nauseam. Morgoth and Ungoliant escape. The Valar *AGAIN* create a kind of "gated community". So the Noldor, especially the Fëanorians, had rebelled. Fer cryin' out loud, there were huge swaths of Middle-earth way east and south of (in the First Age) Beleriand, and even in the Second and following Ages Eriador (Arnor) and Gondor. But at last, Eärendil manages to get them off their smug behinds again (you may notice that I view the Valar almost as bleakly as I do PJ, at least as far as handling story is concerned - in both cases). This time the Valar themselves abstain from intervention (I'm guessing Tulkas can occasionally get carried away, causing Richter Scala earthquakes of, say, 12.0 - *ouch!*) and send Eonwë as commander, whom I definitely place above Sauron as to power and authority.
Beleriand gets trashed in this *War of Wrath*. But the Valar are suddenly able to give Melkor / Morgoth the boot out of Arda? And *AGAIN*, they leave Sauron (and some Balrogs and etc.) behind.

Then Second Age, ending shortly after the drowning of Númenor and making round of the world (this was "Big Daddy's" own act - was that in the Music, did he introduce it to put Melkor's disruptions in their place?). First downfall of Sauron, Isildur get things totally wrong (heretical thought: why didn't Elrond just give him a bonk on the head, and while he was trying to sort his neurons, chuck the blasted ring into the cracks of doom?!?), leading to the last mess in this "comedy of errors":

Erm, yes - the favorite book of probably a lot of people active here (including myself). It's like reading history books and thinking "why were so many of those royal houses so totally brain-dead?!?" (in some cases the Túrin-Nienor issue played a major role - the Spanish Habsburgs being the exhibit A. For others, one must assume sheer stupidity).
Or like watching the news every day. _*sigh*_


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## Ithilethiel

Gothmog said:


> Why? I was unaware of Tolkien's religious beliefs when I first read The Hobbit, Lord of the Rings, and The Silmarillion. My views of the books changed not at all after learning that he was a devout Catholic. While his beliefs make for an interesting layer when discussing his works it is Applicability in his writings that is more important in the reading.



Ok, for everyone but you Gothmog...


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## Gothmog

Ithilethiel said:


> Ok, for everyone but you Gothmog...


I will still ask why is it wise to do so while reading Tolkien since people of many religious beliefs and with no such beliefs read and enjoy the books and each understands them according to what each finds in them as intended by Tolkien. When discussing his works then his religious beliefs are important but likewise also his interest in languages, mythology, and fairie.


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## Olorgando

Ithilethiel said:


> I think it is always wise to keep Tolkien's Catholicism in view when reading him.


More in the back of the mind, and not necessarily.
JRRT was very low-key on the subject of religion in his works, quite in contrast to C.S. Lewis in his (and the latter was simply quite blustery in character).
I don't know if I've posted about this in TTF before, but Tom Shippey points out in his book "The Road to Middle-earth" (I have both the 1992 2nd and the 2003 3rd editions), chapter 5 "Interlacements and The Ring", section "Views of Evil: Boethian and Manichaean", that JRRT again and again gives both possibilities in describing a scene, always bound together with an "or" - but does not decide between them! This even though the Boethian - shorthand "evil is the absence of good" - is the orthodox teaching of not just (Roman) Catholicism but just about all of Christianity, and the Manichaean is officially a heresy, and there have been horrific events - the Albigensian "Crusade" in the early 13th century in France comes to mind - to stamp it out.
JRRT echoes the (unknown) author of "Beowulf" in many, almost uncanny ways. Both had quite a bit of knowledge of the heathen past, both wrote about it (the latter with some real historical background, the former about an entirely fictitious far past), and both decidedly refused to condemn the heathens they depicted as Christian orthodoxy would tend to. A different point (again by Shippey?) is that the "Beowulf" poet and JRRT form almost a pair of "bookends", the "Beowulf" poet living during a time of ascendancy of Christianity; there were still wide heathen swaths in Europe - always depending on when one believes "Beowulf" to have been written - in Scandinavia, perhaps Saxony, the Baltic … And JRRT now *mirrors* him, as he wrote during a time of erosion of Christianity (ongoing).
I dimly remember JRRT *disliking* the Arthurian legends as they had come back to England from Brittany precisely because of their overt Christianity (the Holy Grail stuff etc., I suppose).
And one thing to remember is that many tenets are shared across a wide spectrum of religious and also non-religious beliefs. The most obvious is the Golden Rule, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" being one variant. But there are many more less obviously shared tenets. In times when there are people interested in stirring up conflict, this aspect gets short-shafted badly, the differences and controversies are blown all out of proportion, the separating moats need to be widened and deepened for these evil people to delude others to their sick way of thinking. But aspects that you will rightly think as being consistent with Catholicism are not exclusively so. Adherents of Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism or even say Stoicism or more modern moral philosophies could possibly say with equal conviction, and rightly so, that these are "their" tenets. No question that JRRT would have attributed such things to his own Catholicism; I don't know if he would have gone so far as to attribute it *exclusively* to Catholicism. Should that have been the case, then that's one point where I would quite clearly and bluntly tell him, "Dear Professor, here you are wrong!"


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## Alcuin

Gothmog said:


> I will still ask why is it wise to do so while reading Tolkien since people of many religious beliefs and with no such beliefs read and enjoy the books and each understands them according to what each finds in them as intended by Tolkien. When discussing his works then his religious beliefs are important but likewise also his interest in languages, mythology, and fairie.


Tolkien addresses this in “On Fairy Stories”, in which he says that


> The peculiar quality of the “joy” in successful Fantasy can thus be explained as a sudden glimpse of the underlying reality or truth. It is not only a “consolation” for the sorrow of this world, but a satisfaction, and an answer to that question, “Is it true?” The answer to this question that I gave at first was (quite rightly): “If you have built your little world well, yes: it is true in that world.” That is enough for the artist (or the artist part of the artist). But in the “eucatastrophe” we see in a brief vision that the answer may be greater—it may be a far-off gleam or echo of _evangelium _in the real world.


I don’t think _Lord of the Rings_ can be separated from Tolkien’s relationship with CS Lewis. Both agreed to write stories that, if you will, proselytized Christianity. Lewis produced _Narnia_, an obvious allegory, but one whose depth and sophistication – remember, Lewis was the Cambridge don of Medieval literature – has only recently begun to be uncovered: after all, it was only a “children’s fairy tale,” “unworthy” of serious academic treatment, and thus able to “infect” several generations of children without interruption by academics. Tolkien wrote that (_Letter_ 142)


> _The Lord of the Rings_ is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like “religion”, to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism.


Its attraction to me was as a “fairy story”, a _well-built fantasy world_, in which (almost) all things held well together, in which universal truths, heroic sacrifice, and the struggle against evil were played out in ways that mirrored the real world. Only much, much later did I come to see the religious undertones.

Religion is how we understand the world around us _Is_. Not Science: that is how we come to understand how the world around us _works_. Science might tell us how something came to be as it is today, at least to some degree; but is does not tell how _why_ it Is in the first place. Science is not a philosophy, but a practice, and to the extent that it is a practice, it is a good one, and the philosophy that underlies the practice is also good. But it is not a Religion. A Religion is a reason for Being, and among other beliefs, Atheism is _also_ a Religion – and I point out, the _preferred_ Religion of this day and age, the one that gets preferential treatment in the courts and in society, particularly in the universities (which were, ironically, founded by religious orders for religious purposes). Atheism is a diverse set of beliefs about God (with a capital G: the Supreme Being) and gods (with a lower g: spirits that direct or influence the physical world), and suffers from the same defect as Christianity or Judaism or Islam or Buddhism: Atheism cannot be proven, only _asserted_, and so there are radical Atheists just as there are radical Islamicists, there are devout Atheists just as there are devout Christians. Atheism is a Belief, a Religion, unproven and unprovable.

But we human beings long to believe in _something_, something greater than ourselves, something that both precedes us in our short, temporal existence in this world, something that will remain unchanged when our existence in this world ends. _The Lord of the Rings_ tells such a tale. It does so without (much) reference to Religion or religious rites or religious beliefs; and yet the effect of those beliefs underlies all the action and all the motivation. In a footnote to _Letter_ 153, Tolkien writes,


> There are … no temples … in this “world” among “good” peoples. They had little or no “religion” in the sense of worship. For help they may call on a _Vala_ (as _Elbereth_)_,_ as a Catholic might on a Saint… But this is a “primitive age”: and these folk may be said to view the Valar as children view their parents or immediate adult superiors, and though they know they are subjects of the King he does not live in their country nor have there any dwelling. … [T]here was no temple in Númenor (until Sauron introduced the cult of Morgoth). … Among the exiles, remnants of the Faithful …, religion as divine worship … seems to have played a small part; though a glimpse of it is caught in Faramir's remark on “grace at meat”.



Lewis and Tolkien can be seen as proselytizers. Lewis moved directly using allegory. Tolkien “cordially dislike[d] allegory in all its manifestations, and always [had] done so since [he] grew old and wary enough to detect its presence.” (_FotR_, “Foreword”) Unlike Lewis in _Narnia_, *Tolkien in Lord of the Rings is subversive.*


Olorgando said:


> But aspects that you will rightly think as being consistent with Catholicism are not exclusively so. Adherents of Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism or even say Stoicism or more modern moral philosophies could possibly say with equal conviction, and rightly so, that these are "their" tenets. No question that JRRT would have attributed such things to his own Catholicism; I don't know if he would have gone so far as to attribute it _*exclusively*_ to Catholicism. Should that have been the case, then that's one point where I would quite clearly and bluntly tell him, "Dear Professor, here you are wrong!"


I don’t think he would: his friendship with Lewis later cooled; but remember that Lewis did not become Roman Catholic, but rather Anglican; and that before that, *Lewis himself was a staunch Atheist.*


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## Gothmog

Interesting post Alcuin, however, you have still not answered my question. Why is it always wise to keep Tolkien's Catholicism in view when reading him? If Tolkien's religious beliefs are so important to the reading of the story then it would be only a Catholic view that anyone could see in it. This is clearly not the case as many see the same story carrying views that tie in with diverse world-views that often are at odds with Catholicism or even with Christianity of any form.

Now, this is not the place to discuss real-world religions in general but I will say that you and I have very different views on what religions are and I will point out that despite many claims, Atheism is not a religion as it is a lack of belief in gods singular or multiple and as such doesn't need to be proven.

When it comes to discussing Tolkien's works then his religious beliefs are important to keep in mind but even those who have different world-views can discuss all his works from the point of view of their beliefs while acknowledging that he did write from the perspective of his beliefs even when writing things that were not part of the dogma of his religion.


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## Alcuin

I did not directly address the question, “Why is it always wise to keep Tolkien's Catholicism in view when reading him?” but I will now. It is not necessary to keep Tolkien's Catholicism in view when reading his works, nor is it “wise” unless you are attempting to interpret it in that light: Why should an author’s religious views affect the quality of his work unless they detract? Unless, of course, you concur with the Marxist view that “everything is political.”

I agree with you that “this is not the place to discuss real-world religions”, and Dave Pence’s _Project Evil_ is shut down; but as an aside, I confess that like CS Lewis, I am also a former devout Atheist. With deepest and sincere personal respect for you and your opinions, “There is no God,” _is_ an extraordinary claim, and as I am often reminded by friends and acquaintances who remain atheists and agnostics, “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” – for everyone’s extraordinary claims but their own.


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## Gothmog

Thank you. I agree about it being unimportant when reading Tolkien and this is why I challenged the statement in the first place.

It is a shame that Project Evil is no more. I had hoped it would have continued and grown. I very much enjoyed discussing and moderating on there. Great challenge 

However, just one point. Atheism does not say "There is no God" it says "I do not believe your claims there is one". Being "Devout" is a problem that interferes with many things.


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## Alcuin

Gothmog said:


> Atheism does not say "There is no God" it says "I do not believe your claims there is one".


Ah! No, that’s agnosticism. Atheism is a much stronger proposition: _a-_, “without”, _theos_, “god”: “the doctrine that there is no God.”


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## Gothmog

It would be interesting to continue this discussion on a suitable site but for now we will have to just leave it where it is


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## Ithilethiel

Gothmog said:


> I will still ask why is it wise to do so while reading Tolkien since people of many religious beliefs and with no such beliefs read and enjoy the books and each understands them according to what each finds in them as intended by Tolkien. When discussing his works then his religious beliefs are important but likewise also his interest in languages, mythology, and fairie.



Ok Gothmog. For everyone else but for you just a little bit...


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## Alcuin

In this case, I think we know Tolkien’s intention: You _can_ read his work without reference to his religious beliefs and opinions, and he _meant_ for us to be able to read his work without reference to his religious beliefs and opinions. Is he Christian? yes, most decidedly so. Is he Roman Catholic? yes, emphatically so! Does he want, mean, intend to influence his readers through his work? yes again, explicitly so. But you can and should be able to read and thoroughly enjoy his stories without any reference to or any knowledge of his beliefs about God or salvation or the afterlife. Tolkien’s influence is, and is intentionally, _subversive_: he wants his story to get down deep into you and influence you even without your awareness. If you awaken later to what’s going on, great; and if you are convinced, wonderful! But you need not ever cross those borders to become completely immersed in Middle-earth and the goings-on of Hobbits, Elves, and Dúnedain. 

And by the way, that’s what happened to me. Thank you, JRR Tolkien. I hope I can thank you in person one day – Alcuin


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