# The Economy of Numenor



## Gil-Galad (Oct 6, 2004)

*The Economy of Numenor*

This is the thread where the Economy of Noldor will be discussed.
The first sub-topic will posted very soon


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 6, 2004)

_There are so many things to be said about the Numenorean economy that I think we should start from the very beginning if we want to make best possible “economic picture” of their society and civilization.

So, let’s start with the different parts of Numenor-*Mittalmar,Forostar , Andustar,Hyarnustar,Hyarrostar,Orrostar.* 

The Mittalmar 



…was a region of grassland and low downs,and few trees grew there. Near to the center of Mittalmar stood the mountain called Meneltarma…”

Click to expand...





But for the most part the Mittalmar was a region of pastures.In the south-west there were rolling downs of grass;and there,in the Emerie,was the chief region of the Shepherds

Click to expand...

._
_As we can see from these quotes Mittalmar was not really populated. Of course it had some spiritual and religious functions (Meneltarma) but as a whole it was quite peaceful region.I would that it was the heart of the animal industry. The pastures provided excellent opportunities for developing their animal industry. That is why most of it was concentrated there .The phrase”…the chief region of the Shepherds…” suggests that there existed real animal industry, which most probably had its organizations. I think that I will not be wrong if I say that there was probably organizations or even trade union(why not?) that was responsible for the production of leather and meat. I do not know whether we could find some more information in HoMe about this,but I am wondering one thing.Were the shepherds and the sellers of leather independent traders , or not?
The population in Numenor was really big and there was a real need of solid distribution of meat and leather(we should not forget that leather was of great importance for the making of leather clothes),especially after the beginning of the Numenorean expansion in Middle-earth .The armies needed provisions,the colonies needed them too, that is why the importance of the animal industry based in Mittalmar was growing with the years.
There is also another factor which may have played important role for the growing of the animal industry. Throughout the years not only the levels of expansion in Middle-earth but also the importance of the trade with Middle-earth grew. If we assume that the shepherds were free traders as well as the meat and leather distributors(were they the same persons or we could talk about different levels of the animal industry-producers,distributors,traders???) ,could we say that they eventually exported their goods? Did they sell their meat,animals,leather in Middle-earth? If we have in mind the developed transport(ships protected by the Valar-ok protected in the beginning by the Valar) and the big market that Middle-earth was, we could say that there was export of animals and animal products from Numenor to Middle-earth.

From all these words(I believe there is more to be said about this) I would say that Mittalmar was peaceful and low-populated region which in fact had vital role for Numenor and its citizens.

Questions? Ideas?Comments?I would be really happy if someone who has access to HoMe has some more information about this region and eventually about the Shepherds. If we do not have more we could speculate using the information provided in The Unfinished Tales.
_


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## Lhunithiliel (Oct 10, 2004)

Well, now ... a nice start, GG! 

First off however, I'd like to mention that the word _'industry'_ I'm afraid might make poor Professor turn in his grave! 
Industry he blaimed for having brought the disasters to his world and to that of ME, so, to speak of 'industry' in ME ... c'mon! - it's almost as bad as pure blasphemy!  

So ... as for stock breeding, as far as I remember, there is some information about sheep-breeding and horse-breeding... True. But then ... leather produced for clothes of the population of the island and for the nation's armies and endeavourers must've come (as far as I know of leather) from the skin of cattle, so cattle breeding must've also been well developed. As well as the manufacture (mind it! _*not*_ 'industry'!!!  ) of weapons ... and so numerous blacksmiths must've been in Numenore, especially in the settlements along the coasts and mostly near or in the larger settlements. 

Here... a thought comes .... the Numenoreans seem to have had largely and strongly developed weaponry manufacture. But *on* the island itself they did not need all these weapons! .. At least not for the most part of the existence of this nation... They only needed them on their voyages when exploring their world and duing the adventurous settlement on ME .... So, I guess an average Numenorean man would not wear a sword or a dagger or any alike with him... Then all that manufacture of weaponry must've been somehow specialized only to supply the venturers sailing off the island to unexplored (and explored, too, but still dangerous) lands and worlds apart from Numenor, hence somehow organized in specialized places...


Another thought ... Though just an idea, eventually abandoned as it seems, I was (and still am  ) amazed with the idea of the Numenorean flying ships. 
It seems that at one point Tolkien, when his attention was most drawn to the mysterious history of Numenor (as his variant of Atlantis), envisioned their civilization really, really highly developed... that much as to have a fleet of flying ships! Pity, he had abandoned that whole 'Numenor - Atalante' theme . ... 
Though ... on the other hand, 'flying ships' ... somehow would not "fit" the whole picture ... so that might've been one of the reasons Tolkien abandoned this idea. Stil... it was a fascinating one!


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## MichaelMartinez (Oct 11, 2004)

Lhunithiliel said:


> Well, now ... a nice start, GG!
> 
> First off however, I'd like to mention that the word _'industry'_ I'm afraid might make poor Professor turn in his grave!
> Industry he blaimed for having brought the disasters to his world and to that of ME, so, to speak of 'industry' in ME ... c'mon! - it's almost as bad as pure blasphemy!


Tolkien was bothered by the effects of industrialization, which we sometimes refer to as "industry", but he would have recognized the broad uses of the word, which goes back to Middle English (when it was used in the same way as we use "skill" now).



> So ... as for stock breeding, as far as I remember, there is some information about sheep-breeding and horse-breeding... True. But then ... leather produced for clothes of the population of the island and for the nation's armies and endeavourers must've come (as far as I know of leather) from the skin of cattle, so cattle breeding must've also been well developed. As well as the manufacture (mind it! _*not*_ 'industry'!!!  ) of weapons ... and so numerous blacksmiths must've been in Numenore, especially in the settlements along the coasts and mostly near or in the larger settlements.


Tolkien's essay on Numenor (published in _Unfinished Tales of Numenor and Middle-earth_) says there were few weapon-smiths in the early days of the kingdom, but there were always some (and many more smiths). Since they required saddles and harnesses for their horses, they had to use hides from some sort of livestock. They did not necessarily need cattle for leather, but the Marachians are said to have owned cattle in "Narn i Chin Hurin" (published in _Unfinished Tales_ as "Narn i Hin Hurin"). Hence, the Numenoreans more than likely possessed cattle as well as horses and sheep.

In attested industries, the Numenoreans engaged in farming, fishing, forestry, animal husbandry (a more appropriate phrase, perhaps, than "animal industry"), spinning, weaving, ship-building, quarrying, wagon-making, road-building, carpentry, manufacture of inks and papers (or paper-like materials such as vellum), and architecture/construction. There would have undoubtedly been many supporting industries, and they did not necessarily have to have factories (although the concept of mass manufacture is quite ancient -- the Romans had slave-filled factories in which dozens, even hundreds of workers turned out merchandise in massive quantities for trade).


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## Lhunithiliel (Oct 12, 2004)

Hello, Mr.Martinez!
Honoured to have you around! 

_industry_ ... Well , it still leaves a 'metalic taste' and the 'smell of fumes' as a word, even in its broader meaning. And that looks to me more "Mordor - is' than Numenorean (... at least before the roofed temple on Meneltarma was built...) 

The Numenoreans most certainly developed various branches of what 'economy' might mean in general, which of course is absolutely normal, them having developed into sth. we would call today a whole 'country'. Why ! They even developed their own language and that, IMHO, is one of the 'signs' of a nation structured in a country.

Anyway, when I think of the most developed branches of the Numenorean 'economy' I think that there were three main ones - shipbuilding, forestry and weaponry.


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## Walter (Oct 12, 2004)

> First off however, I'd like to mention that the word 'industry' I'm afraid might make poor Professor turn in his grave!
> Industry he blaimed for having brought the disasters to his world and to that of ME, so, to speak of 'industry' in ME ... c'mon! - it's almost as bad as pure blasphemy!


'industry' from Latin _industria_, _industrius_, older _indostruus_ has got to do with being busy, with diligence and was - exactly in that sense - used by Tolkien as the 'diligent' reader would not fail to notice (cf. MonCrit, Letters, PoMe), whereas he used 'economy' usually in a quite different context (cf. Letters)...



> Why ! They even developed their own language and that, IMHO, is one of the 'signs' of a nation structured in a country.


That statement, m'Ldy, is just another non sequitur, IMHO. Languages were developed long before 'nations' or 'countries' were even invented....


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## Lhunithiliel (Oct 12, 2004)

Walter said:


> 'industry' from Latin _industria_, _industrius_, older _indostruus_ has got to do with being busy, with diligence and was - exactly in that sense - used by Tolkien as the 'diligent' reader would not fail to notice (cf. MonCrit, Letters, PoMe), whereas he used 'economy' usually in a quite different context (cf. Letters)...


Not being 'diligent' , personally I'd prefer avoiding the use of this word, no matter its broad meaning and / or etymology - both of these, however, always keeping in mind! 



> That statement, m'Ldy, is just another non sequitur, IMHO. Languages were developed long before 'nations' or 'countries' were even invented....


But still a language is considered as one of the characteristics of a 'nation' and /or of a country, .... M'Lord!


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## Walter (Oct 12, 2004)

> Not being 'diligent' , personally I'd prefer avoiding the use of this word, no matter its broad meaning and / or etymology - both of these, however, always keeping in mind!
> 
> 
> But still a language is considered as one of the characteristics of a 'nation' and /or of a country, .... M'Lord!


Aaah, my bad again. I thought this discussion was about Tolkien's fantasy-world, not yours... 

But I guess I'm wrong, once again


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## MichaelMartinez (Oct 12, 2004)

Lhunithiliel said:


> Hello, Mr.Martinez!
> Honoured to have you around!


Thank you.



> The Numenoreans most certainly developed various branches of what 'economy' might mean in general, which of course is absolutely normal, them having developed into sth. we would call today a whole 'country'. Why ! They even developed their own language and that, IMHO, is one of the 'signs' of a nation structured in a country.
> 
> Anyway, when I think of the most developed branches of the Numenorean 'economy' I think that there were three main ones - shipbuilding, forestry and weaponry.


I think it's also important to distinguish between periods of their history. For example, Numenor eventually developed an extensive slave trade.


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## Lhunithiliel (Oct 13, 2004)

MichaelMartinez said:


> Thank you.


You are most welcome! 



> I think it's also important to distinguish between periods of their history. For example, Numenor eventually developed an extensive slave trade.



Slave trade ?!!  
This is an intriguing claim! 
I would love to learn more about your observations on this issue.
Do you suppose that they brought slaves from the 'dark' peoples from ME to the island to work for them? Or used their labour in the newly established Numenorean settlements in ME? If so, it mus've been strictly to the South, because I don't think the Elves of Gil-galad and Cyrdan in the North would've allowed it.
Are there textual evidences about this? I might've missed or overlooked them.  
I would find it a strange phenomenon of the policy of the Numenoreans... but as you said, it depends on the stage of the development of this policy in the course of the second 'conquista' of ME in the second half of the Second Age.

*Walter*, Sorry! I must've said sth. wrong ... again...  
Anyway this is surely not _your_ fault!


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## Maerbenn (Oct 13, 2004)

*Lhunithiliel*, 'The Downfall of Númenor' (also called 'Akallabêth' in the published _Silmarillion_ and in _The Lord of the Rings_) contains this paragraph:


> Nonetheless for long it seemed to the Númenóreans that they prospered, and if they were not increased in happiness, yet they grew more strong, and their rich men ever richer. For with the aid and counsel of Sauron they multiplied then: possessions, and they devised engines, and they built ever greater ships. And they sailed now with power and armoury to Middle-earth, and they came no longer as bringers of gifts, nor even as rulers, but as fierce men of war. And they hunted the men of Middle-earth and took their goods and *enslaved* them, and many they slew cruelly upon their altars. For they built in their fortresses temples and great tombs in those days; and men feared them, and the memory of the kindly kings of the ancient days faded from the world and was darkened by many a tale of dread.


Also, it tells us that “there was little wind, but they had many oars and many strong *slaves* to row beneath the lash” when the fleets of the Númenóreans moved against the West.


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## Lhunithiliel (Oct 13, 2004)

Hello, old friend !!!
Honoured to have you around , too !!! 

And thanks for the quote!
I do remember well the events it describes, however must've missed/forgotten the word and - there escaped that knowledge about slavery!

Walt must be so right about me not being a 'diligent' reader !!!


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## Walter (Oct 13, 2004)

> Walt must be so right about me not being a 'diligent' reader !!!


I did not say that. 

What I did say, was that the 'diligent' reader would notice that Tolkien frequently used the term 'industry' - as MM pointed out before I did - in a different context than you seem to understand it. Thus Gil-Galad's use of 'industry' should be seen in the context of how Tolkien may have understood it, not how you understand it. And that - IMO - does not justify to be placed in the vicinity of 'blasphemy'.

So, if anyone at at all, it is G-G who you owe an apologize...


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 15, 2004)

Well Lhun at the moment I do not have time to argue because I am using someone's else pc,not mine.
Lhun I know Tolkien's opinion about the undustrialization and "the-whatever-it-takes" progress,but I believe he realized that the progress(the economy is part of this progress as well as the industrialization) was inevitable,but that is another story  

Let's continue with the topic it is really getting interesting,especially with Michael and Walter around


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## Lhunithiliel (Oct 15, 2004)

Well... I don't see a reason for you to argue, my King! 
Unless, of course, every thing I say is worth arguing!  
But ... if this is the case, as it seems, then I'd better not cause any further arguments! 
I'll be happy to just read!


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 17, 2004)

Come on Lhun,we all need your comments,even if they are critical ones,what could we expect from a Wraith???


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## Valandil (Oct 27, 2004)

I wonder if the Numenoreans... or SOME Men at least, would have been the first in 'Greater Middle-earth' (including FA Beleriand and SA Numenor) to coin money.

I don't own much of the HoMe series, so there may be material there which contradicts me, but I don't recall anything at all in 'The Silmarillion' about the use of money. I suggest that Elven and even early Dwarven economies worked entirely differently... and that Men were the first to coin money.

It would have greatly eased trade, might have been adopted by Elves and Dwarves as well (at least as a convenient way to deal economically with Men - and perhaps one another), and it just sort of seems a ... Mannish thing to do!


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## Lhunithiliel (Oct 27, 2004)

***_scratching her head..._***

Hmmm... really! Was there money? Why can't I remember anything about it!  And if there was, what was the name of the ME-currency?


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## Valandil (Oct 27, 2004)

Ha... I can't recall if a currency is named either. There were gold coins in 'The Hobbit' at least... and the Gaffer tells someone that 'Bilbo is free with his money' in 'A Long Expected Party. Besides... in the Third Age setting of our beloved stories, there are Inns and Taverns... for whose existence I imagine the exchange of some kind of currency must have been required.


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 27, 2004)

I am sure there was something like a currency.I am far away from the thought that eveyrthing was found on the basis of natural trade.
Even between the elves there should have been a kind of currency.What makes me think like that is the fact that they were able to value the things they have created-Feanor and his works,all beautiful mastepieces etc.So I doubt a great master like Celebrimbor or some of the others who are not so famous,would have created a beautiful masterpiece ,let's say "for free".There should have been something used as currency.Maybe gold?
But that was about the elves.We are trying to concentrate on the Numenoreans.I am 100%sure they had a kind of currency.They were most of us,they wanted everything they could not have,their greed was so great at the time of the last kings......There should have been money,something with which they measured the price of the different subjects.

Is there anyone who has some info from books like HoMe?


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## Valandil (Oct 30, 2004)

Gil-Galad said:


> :
> :
> Even between the elves there should have been a kind of currency.What makes me think like that is the fact that they were able to value the things they have created-Feanor and his works,all beautiful mastepieces etc.So I doubt a great master like Celebrimbor or some of the others who are not so famous,would have created a beautiful masterpiece ,let's say "for free".There should have been something used as currency.Maybe gold?
> :
> :



Still, to me there is little to indicate that the Elves operated this way - at least in the First Age. Look what we know of that the Elves (and Dwarves) do with precious metals... left to themselves, they make artistic objects; whether necklaces or helms or swords or some other object - not coins. I doubt they so much 'bought and sold' from and to one another... but I think they all pitched in and did their part to contribute to the whole - and were not so oriented toward possessions (except their kings).

If someone from elsewhere came to them, I don't think they would charge for food or a place to sleep... they would either offer their hospitality, or send the visitors away.

I don't think the Elves and Dwarves really had a need for money... until they began to trade with Men.


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## Lhunithiliel (Oct 30, 2004)

Well, knowing from the history of ME how Men came to Beleriand and how the first kingdoms of Men were ever established as such - meaning and pre-supposing to have a certain economic structure as well - I wonder at what moment the need in money must've appeared. 
And this is to a great extent IMO important to find out (if ever possible!  ) because if money was introduced at one point after Men settled in Beleriand, this feature of their society they must've also taken to Numenor and developed it there. 
Really, trade must've been extremely active ... and though understanding almost nothing in economics, I guess those societies must've had some form of payment for the goods offered. Right?


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## Valandil (Oct 30, 2004)

Yes - I'm sure they must have... once they transitioned from hospitality to actual trade.

Most societies begin with barter... actual 'trades' of one kind of goods for another. This later leads to the development of actual money... a 'medium of exchange' - I believe is the definition...


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## Gil-Galad (Nov 1, 2004)

Any quote to prove it?Is there any quote we could use?


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## Valandil (Nov 2, 2004)

Gil-Galad said:


> Any quote to prove it?Is there any quote we could use?



To prove which?

Besides... I'm talking about the lack of quotes on anything like 'money'... so, no - I can't think of a quote right off.


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## Gil-Galad (Nov 2, 2004)

I meant whether we could find a quote which can help us prove that at least the Men had money.

I have been searching in UT and some HoMe's,but I haven't found anything.


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## Valandil (Nov 2, 2004)

Gil-Galad said:


> I meant whether we could find a quote which can help us prove that at least the Men had money.
> 
> I have been searching in UT and some HoMe's,but I haven't found anything.


 Oh - I see! No - I don't know of any. It was more a guess from the apparent increase in commerce. However, I'll help you look.


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## Valandil (Nov 6, 2004)

I should have known... here's an article by the sometimes-controversial  Michael Martinez, first posted 5 years ago yesterday!:

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/28208

He touches on Middle-earth commerce in general and the use of money in particular.


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## Gil-Galad (Nov 6, 2004)

WOW!!!

Thanks a lot Valandil.I think this article by MM is the best thing we could find so far.
 
Actually it provides me some more ideas about the Economy of the Numenor and some more questions to think about them


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## Astaldo (Nov 7, 2004)

Yeah. Thanx for the link Valandil. Very good.


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## Valandil (Nov 8, 2004)

Glad you guys liked it. It's one of a series of essays he wrote and posted at the site... the site has 147 essays now and he wrote the first 131. I haven't read them ALL yet, but I've read at least 2-3 dozen, maybe more. You'll find that he has researched a whole lot of different topics and written some nice articles.

Rather than take this further off-topic, I will post the link to the full list of articles in the Michael Martinez thread.


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## Ingwë (Mar 24, 2005)

*The Economy of Forostar*

_The Economy of Númenor_​ 
*Forostar*​ 
​​_I have used the information provided in 'The Unfinished Tales'. But there isn`t much of it in that book. This region is stony and infertile and few threes grew there. According to this facts, I would say Forostar was sparsely populated region just like Mittalmar. Native people have not been farmers, because of stony region - they can hardly produce their own food. It is my oppinion that there have not been a lot of animals because of of food shortage and maybe the hunters have been few in number. _​
_In spite of all there were a few forests in the west slopes of the high hills and maybe the population was concentrated there. I think that these people were highlanders and their houses were outlying one from another, so there were a few ways of surviving there; to be a hunter or..._​
_As previously mentioned Forostar was a stony area. Numenoreans needed stones for building their houses, if they wre made by stones. What about the Royal Palace? According to me the Royal family needed marvel, granite or another kind of stone for their palace. Rich Numenoreans needed such stones for their stone homes. _​_And what about the transport? Transporting all these stones was very hard, even impossible. But as I mentioned many Numenoreans needed these stones very much and I think that they delivered them from Forostar to other Numenoream regions and vice verse. _​_For providing these stones there was necessity of roads and for building stones, therefore I think that first roads have been built in Forostar. Certainly, it was possible only in the presense of merchandise traffic among different districts on the island. _​_One deposits were found in Numenor. Where did they found them? Was it in Forostar or wasn`t? I think that is quite possible. _​_Certainly people who weren't hunters have worked in the mines to extract minerals and stones_​_Gil-Galad said that shepherds of Mittalmar had trade union. My oppinion is that Forostar workers have had such union because there was necessity of it; and if there was, it would make the trade relations easier. That`s why I believe of existing of that sort of union._​_So I come to a conclution that although Forostar has been scarely populated it was very important for all Numenoreans._​​​


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## Gil-Galad (Mar 25, 2005)

First of all I would like to say that I am glad someone has again lighted the fire in this thread.

Quite interesting things Ingwe....Especially your thoughts about the stone.
I would agree in a way with you,that some part may have been used for stone.The Numenorean civilization reached such a level of development that no doubt they used stones,marvel etc in the making of their buildings(I am sure there are plenty of quotes proving this info-just no time to search for one  )Having in mind that Numenor was surrounded by sea and there were no opportunities for "importing" stone and marvel in big amounts from ME,they should have had some mines.

I would not say that transport was developed in this part of Numenor.As Tolkien says it was quite unpopulated region.That is why,if they were some mines they should have been in the center or the south of this region-not far away from the heart of the island.The fact that the mines were not that far away could help us prove that there were one or two roads,that were mainly for minors' use.
The other part would have been unpopulated-which could explain why Tar-Meneldur built his tower 


> from which he could observe the motions of the stars


-it was perfect calm and peacuful place,where the King could stay alone with his thoughts.

We could only speculate about this,because we do not have enough information about this region,but some of the things we said could have been a fact....


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## Ingwë (Mar 26, 2005)

Thank you, Gil-Galad. As I mentioned, Forostar was a stony region, therefore the native people work in some mines. There is nothing else but stones there. 
You support my words. 


> The other part would have been unpopulated-which could explain why Tar-Meneldur built his tower from which he could observe the motions of the stars


I love this quote.  
I was not sure if they used stones for their houses but now I am.



> We could only speculate about this,because we do not have enough information about this region


That`s pity. I used the information provided in the UT. Isn`t there some more information about this region in HoMe.


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## Gil-Galad (Mar 26, 2005)

The fact that I agree with you does not mean that we are both right .... 

Even now you could not be sure whether their houses were of stone or not.From out speculations we could say that the people who lived there were mostly minors.Because of their work we could also say that they probably lived next to the mines in minor villages.It seems more reasonable for me if their houses were mostly of wood.They did not live in towns,their homes were a kind of "temporary" accomodation,which they were able to remove/to build for a short period of time,when they had to settle down near another source or stone for the island.In this sense houses from stone would have been too expensive and unpractical to be built. ......


but as I said those are only my suggestions.....nothing is for sure .

Ingwe,read some more from UT and you may find something else .

Is there anyone who could provide some quotes from HoMe supporting or opposing our ideas?


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## Ingwë (Mar 27, 2005)

Gil-Galad said:


> From out speculations we could say that the people who lived there were mostly minors.


Yes, hard working minors. Maybe their houses were not built of stone. You are right. Building houses of stones is not usable because of moving from one mine to another. 
But maybe the Numenoreans from other regions built their houses of stone. They lived in towns - they needed these stones. 

We can do nothing but suggest. But this discussion is interesting. 

I have found some information that may be useful in Unfinished Tales:

Numenoreans love horses. All men and women like riding horses. But there wasn`t a lot of paths. They transported some goods by ship. Maybe they do that because that kind of transporthing was useful. It is said they used cart but maybe they used them later. 
Main road was from Romenna to Armenelos. Later that path was used by more people because the population in Numenor increased. Thus this path became longer and wider. 
Map of Numenor may be found in this thread posted by IthrynLuin.


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## Ellatur (Apr 28, 2005)

question: who did they trade with?


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## Ingwë (Apr 29, 2005)

As far as I know they sailed to Middle earth and began relationship with Gil-Galad in Lindon; they also made cities near the Sea. It is Tar-Aldarion who has sailed to Middle earth and has met the High King Gil-Galad who dwelt in Lindon. Is it correct or it isn't? Therefore they trade with the Men living in Middle earth (but not evil Men). If you want more information just ask. 
There was relation between the other regions in Numenor. As we know there was a lot of stones in Forostar, wood in Hyarnustar, etc... Other regions needed such goods and I believe in the presense of merchandise traffic among different districts on the island.


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## Ingwë (May 25, 2005)

*The Economy of Andustar*

_The Economy of Númenor_​ 
*Andustar*​ 
_The West region of Númenor is Andustar. There are three small bays, mountains, many fertile territories, forests and beautiful lands near the Bay of Eldanna in Andustar. These lands provided an excellent opportunify for developing the local economy._



> The Andustar was also rocky in its northern parts, with high firwoods looking out upon the sea


 _I suppose that this region has been sparsely populated because the territories in the south were fertile. In spite of all in the northern parts of Andustar there have been fir-tree forests - an ability for developing timber trade. I would say that the men who were interested in logging woked in organised groups though I don't believe in the presence of trade union. I think there has been merchandise traffic among the different districts of the island and the people of Andustar have transported the wood to other regions and have delivered goods from them. It's my oppinion that the houses of the Númenoreans were built of wood because they moved them from one forest to another. But I would like to mention that they have always planted trees._




> The chief and most ancient road suitable for wheels, ran from the greatest port, Rómenna in the east, to the royal city of Armenelos, and thence on to the Valley of the Tombs and the Meneltarma; and this road was early extended to Ondosto within the borders of the Forostar, and thence to Andúnië in the west. Along it passed wains bearing stone from the Northlands that was most esteemed for building, and timber in which the Westlands were rich.


 _I would say that a lot of that wood of the Westlands has been produced in the Northern part of Andustar._




> Three small bays it had, facing west, cut back into the highlands
> The northmost of these was called the Bay of Andъniл, for there was the great haven of Andúnië (Sunset), with its town beside the shore and many other dwellings climbing up the steep slopes behind.


 _My oppinion is that the people who have lived there have been fishermen or sailors._




> Beyond all other pursuits the strong men of Númenor took delight in the Sea, in swimming, in diving, or in small craft for contests of speed in rowing or sailing.


 _I would say there have been small fishermen villages near the gulfs. The fishermen probably have spent all the day in the Sea; the have lived in a small wooden houses. Maybe they have had bigger boats, maybe ships; for there have been a lot of wood in the region, and there had been relationship between Andúnië and Rómenna._
_Andúnië was the biggest city in the Westlands and a trade centre of Andustar. I would say that the fishermen have sold their fish there. At the beginning Númenoreans have transported the goods using ships. Andúnië has been the centre of the Westlands and the goods passed through Andúnië going to Rómenna - the great haven of the Eastlands. _
_I think the houses of the Númenoreans of Andúnië were built of stone, for Andúnië has been a big city (here the stones of Forostar were in use)_
_I suppose that the other Númenoreans of Andustar have been farmers or landowners (for the southern territories were fertile)._




> But much of the southerly part of the Andustar was fertile, and there also were great woods, of birch and beech upon the upper ground, and in the lower vales of oaks and elms


 _It is not said what they have prodused; but it is said that there have been wheat in Orrostar, grapes (vineyard) in Hyarnustar, trees in Hyarrostar. I think that there have been rice, corn, fruit and vegetables in Andustar. There have been merchandise traffic among the different regions of Númenor, so they have exported wood, fruit and vegetables, rice, corn; and they have imported stones, leather, wheat. people have been farmers. _
_I think that much of the trees of Andustar have been used and the main part of these were the trees of the southern part. _




> Between the promontories of the Andustar and the Hyarnustar was the great Bay that was called Eldanna, because it faced towards Eressëa; and the lands about it, being sheltered from the north and open to the western seas, were warm, and the most rain fell there. At the centre of the Bay of Eldanna was the most beautiful of all the havens of Númenor.


_That has been the most beautiful place in Númenor. I think the Númenoreans come there when they needed a rest. That land was of great delight for Númenor. And this has been a place for holiday. If the Númenoreans had holidays I'm sure they would spent them in this region. _


_So I come to a conclusion the the economy of Andustar has been well developed because of the wealthy nature; it has been a peaceful region, Andúnië has been densely populated and the other people of Andustar have been farmers or woodmen. That city has been a trade centre of Andustar. Probably there have been many fishermen. Andustar has been a mix of different nature forms and thus it become an important economical region for Númenor. _


_Comments? Questions?_


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## Ingwë (Jun 3, 2005)

*The Economy of Hyarnustar*

_The Economy of Númenor_​
*Hyarnustar*​ 
_The south-west territories of Númenor are names Hyarnustar. It was mountanious region it it's western parts, but eastwards there has been fertile lands._



> The Hyarnustar was in its western parts a mountanious region, with great cliffs on the western and southern coast.


_I suppose that this territories have been sparcely populated or even deserted. It is not said if there have been plants so I would say that there haven't been  . There haven't been ground suitable for plants, there have been no plants, therefore there have been no animals. Then the native people couldn't produce their own food and this lands have been uninhabited_



> But eastwards were great vineyards in a warm and fertile land


_Númenoreans, grapes  ? Maybe they have produced a lot of wine? So much vineyards - perhaps they have produced a lot of grapes. I would say that the best wine has been produced for the Royal Family; or the King has his own vineyard and his own cellar? _
_Producing wine has been a good business. Probably there have been small villages where the workerd have lived or they have lived in the farms of the landowners._
_Warm and fertile lands... Probably they have produced other fruits because if the good opportunities, though it is not said if they have. Grapes ---> no rain. Therefore thay have produced fruit such as our tropical fruits. _



> here flowed down Siril (...),for many miles on either side were wide white beaches and grey shingles, and here the fisherfolk mostly dwelt, in villages upon the hards of the marshes and meres.


_Many fishermen have dwelt here, and there have been mamy bays. I would say the fishermen of Hyarnustar haven't sold their fish, for there haven't been a great trade centre, great haven in Hyarnustar. It's my oppinion that the fishermen have lived in a small wooden houses just like the fishermen of Andustar_. 

_The territories near Siril have been infertile, for there have been marshes and reed - no cultures. _

_Hyarnustar has been sparcely populated region but it was important for the Númenoreans._


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## Starbrow (Jun 6, 2005)

Thanx for doing all this research Ingwe. I think you've done a good job with most of it. However I'm not sure I agree with your conclusions about the mountainous region of Hyarnustar. There are many types of mountains and most support plant and animal life to varying degrees. It was probably sparsely populated, but may have been a good hunting territory.


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## Ingwë (Jun 7, 2005)

> The Hyarnustar was in its western part a mountainous re&shy;gion, with great cliffs on the western and southern coasts;


Do you think there are plants there. Because if there are plants there will be animals and hunters would dwell there.


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## Ingwë (Jun 19, 2005)

*Re: The Economy of Hyarrostar*

_The Economy of Númenor_​

*Hyarrostar*​

_The south-eastern territories of Númenor were called Hyarrostar. Many trees grew there and Tar-Aldarion created great plantations to furnish timber._​ 


> In the Hyarrostar grew an abundance of trees of many kinds, and among them the laurinquë in which the people delighted for its flowers, for it had no other use. This name they gave it beshy;cause of its long-hanging clusters of yellow flowers; and some who had heard from the Eldar of Laurelin, the Golden Tree of Valinor, believed that it came from that great Tree, being brought in seed thither by the Eldar; but it was not so. From the days of Tar-Aldarion there were great plantations in the Hyar&shy;rostar to furnish timber for shipbuilding.


_As we can see Hyarrostar hasn't been sparsely populated and the most of its population have been workers. There have been trees of many kinds in parks or in forests. The Númenoreans have loved these trees and I suppose there have been people who took care of the forests. However, I think that the Keepers of the Natural Forests haven'tr been many. _

_There have been mamy forests (as we can see from the map), so there have been good opportunities for developing timber trade. _
_Tar-Aldarion was the fifth King of Númenor but he created plantations in Hyarrostar in the days of his father. Hyarrostar was near withs its forests so he created plantation there._

_In spite of all the plantations have been created in Hyarrostar. Probably many peopes have worked there._
_I think the plantations have been well-organised. Here is my plan about the structure of each plantation:_

_Places where the seeds were planted. Here the young trees grew up and later these ones were planted in forests_
_The young trees were planted in forests. The trees were planted in special order and the forests have had fixed forms such as square _
_Later the trees had grown bigger and finally the moment when they have to be chopped away came. I would say that many people have worked there, because chopping away such big trees is not easy. And Aldarion needed a lot of wood so I'm sure many people foung a job there._
_I was wondering if I have to add tranporting in my plan but I suppose the places where the trees were remade in great beams have been in the plantations themselves. So the trees were transported from the forests to the special places in the plantations where they were remade in a precise forms for the ships_
_After all we have big beams for shipbuilding _

_I suppose the workers have lived an small 'housing estates'. Each plantation had small village and small trade centre. I would say the houses were built of wood and perhaps the families of the workers have lived there. _

_The wood has been transported to the sea where the ships were built. They have been built in the city of Rómenna (we know that Tar-Aldarion built ships there)_

_Well, that's my plan. Comments?_

_From all these words I would say that Hyarrostar has been very important region for the Mariners, and many people have worked in the plantations: the most important economical factor for Hyarrostar. _


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## Ingwë (Jun 29, 2005)

_The Economy of Númenor_​ 
*Orrostar*​


_Orrostar was the north-eastern region of Númenor. Highlands protected it drom the cold winds. This region was very important or even the most important because of the grain that grew there._
​ 



> The Orrostar was a cooler land, but it was protected from (he cold north-east winds by highlands that rose towards the end of the promontory; and in the inner regions of the Orrostar much grain was grown, especially in those parts near to the borders of Arandor.


 _I suppose that the noethern part of the mountains was deserted because it was cold land. Probably the souther part of the highlands has its polulation though I think it wasn't big. Perhaps the navite people were hunters. They preferred to dwell in the southern part because it was warmer that the northern slopes that looked out upon the Sea. I think that there were forests in the mountains though it is not said so. Normally there are forests upon the slopes pof the mountains; the Forrostar was a stony region but probably the other mountains were 'covered' with trees. _

_The Orrostar had a vital role for the island. This was the place where the Númenoreans produced grain! It was very important for making bread and other products. I would say that the producers were well organised. Perhaps there were producersm distridutors and traders:_






_*Producers: *the landowners had vast. There were workers who cultivated the grain: they planted the seeds, they ploughed, they seythe (probably thw heat) and they gathered in the product. The grains were moved to storehouses till the distributors come._
_*Distributors:* they bought the grain from the producers and sold it to the traiders. The distrobutors bought grain from many producers and therefore they had bigger storehouses. The distributors transpotred the products to the other regions of Númenor._
_*Traders: *they bought the grains from the distributors. The traders sold the product to the ordinary Númenoreans_
_Many people worked on the fields because the Númenoreans hadn't got machines and they did all the work woth their own hands or with the help of animals._
_I think the people of Orrostar lived in villages. The richer people had houses of stone and the other people - wooden houses. Perhaps there were people who had giant fields and people who had small ones (but they had union in the village)._


_'... near the borders of Arandor...' - probably they planted grain there because Rómenna was in Arandor and they used ships to transport the grains. It was easier to transport the products from the lands near Arandor!_


_I think that Orrostar was very important region for Númenor. This district had well developed economy and the reason is that Orrostar was the place where grain grew. _


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## Ingwë (Jul 11, 2005)

*Other Writings...*

_There are several big towns in Númenor: Rómenna (Mittalmar) , Andúnië, Eldalodë (Andustar), Ondosto (Forostar), NIndamos (Hyarrostar), and Armenelos (the capital city). The biggest cities and trade centres of Númenor are Andúnië and Rómenna. _
_Rómenna was the city of the Mariners. Tar-Ardarion left Númenor from this city. Rómenna was the most important city for the trade between Númenor and the MIddle earth. This was the place where the ships were built. I'm sure that the economy of this city was well-developed (probably this was the city that has the most developed economy). Many people worked in ship-building and in the Guild of Mariners. Also many people worked at the havens: shipping and unshipping the boatsthat came from the Middle earth and went there. _
_Armenelos was the city of the King. There were people who worked there: cooks, gardeners, etc. - many people but Armenelos wasn't trade centre. _
_there were many craftsmen in all cities. Perhaps there were streets of the craftsmen in each city. They had good business. The craftsmen worked with wood, clay, stone, etc. for all Númenoreans. In that big cities the native people were many and the city needed many craftsmen._
_These big cities were trade centres. there were many markets and many people worked there: grocers, green grocers. They sold fruit, vegetables, meat, other goods. the products were delivered by distributors and/or traders to the sellers. They delivered goods from all regions of Númenor to the big cities. Probably there were small markets in the small towns; the traders bought from the big markets. _
_And we mustn't forget the tailors. They bought leather from Mittalmar, but they made clothes in the cities. The population of Númenor was big so they needed clothes and the tailors had a lot of work. I suppose that the Númenoreans from the small towns and villages went to the big cities for clothes. So we have another good business  _

_Comments?_


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## Ingwë (Jul 11, 2005)

*The Economy of Númenor*​ 

Mittalmar was peaceful and low-populated region which in fact had vital role for Numenor and its citizens. The cattle breeding was well-developed. There was export of animals and animal products from Numenor to Middle-earth.

Forostar has been scarely populated it was very important for all Numenoreans. The Númenoreans extracted stones. 

The economy of Andustar has been well developed because of the wealthy nature; it has been a peaceful region, Andúnië has been densely populated and the other people of Andustar have been farmers or woodmen. That city has been a trade centre of Andustar. Probably there have been many fishermen. Andustar has been a mix of different nature forms and thus it become an important economical region for Númenor. The native people produced wood, rice, corn, fruit and vegetable. There were many fishermen

Hyarnustar has been sparcely populated region but it was important for the Númenoreans. They produced grapes 

Hyarrostar has been very important region for the Mariners, and many people have worked in the plantations: the most important economical factor for Hyarrostar. They produced wood for ship-building.

I think that Orrostar was very important region for Númenor. This district had well developed economy and the reason is that Orrostar was the place where grain grew.


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## Gil-Galad (Jul 11, 2005)

hmm I have been gone for quite a long time,but that's life-sometimes we have too many things to do and there is no time for pleasure.........

And I see that Ingwe has done some interesting things here,concerning the Numenoreans.

I have just several things do say as well as some question.

by Ingwe:


> As far as I know they sailed to Middle earth and began relationship with Gil-Galad in Lindon; they also made cities near the Sea. It is Tar-Aldarion who has sailed to Middle earth and has met the High King Gil-Galad who dwelt in Lindon. Is it correct or it isn't? Therefore they trade with the Men living in Middle earth (but not evil Men). If you want more information just ask.



Concerning the trade with Middle-earth and especially the way and the amount of trading could be a whole new topic,which I hope we would discuss later.IMHO we could divide Numenoreans' trade relationships into several stages.First one in the very beginning-when they were trading with limited territories and people from Middle-earth with the purpose of providing the commodities which Numenoreans did not have on their island.The second fase could be when they started making profits from the trade-including export of some things from Numenor and importing good which they needed.(I think I would not be wrong if I make a comparisson between the way they traded and the way the colonialists in our history traded-providing goods like costume jewelry,things which the less developed region and tribes in Middle-earth did not have in possesions.)The third fase could be the time of total domination of Numenor in Middle-earth-a time when the most important commodities in Middle-earth were a kind of "nationalized" because of their importance for the Numenorean army,fleet etc.

Having this mind I would not say that they did not trade with "evil people".I suppose that there were some trading relationships with those tribes when they were not at war.

This is a huge topic and I hope we would discuss it later.....

Now about Andustar
by Ingwe:


> I suppose that this region has been sparsely populated because the territories in the south were fertile. In spite of all in the northern parts of Andustar there have been fir-tree forests - an ability for developing timber trade. I would say that the men who were interested in logging woked in organised groups though I don't believe in the presence of trade union.




Let me disagree with you...:



> The northmost of these was called Andunie,for there was the great haven of Andunie (Sunset),with its town beside the shore and many other dwellings climbing up the steep sloped behind.



So,as you can see we could talk about big population there.It was most concentraded near the haven because of different factors(trade,sailing,fishing,elves, etc).Saying that the southern part was not populated is not enough in order to conclude that the whole region was not populated.Furthermore we could infer that this southern part was fertile because it was used mostly for pastures-logical if we have in mind the fact that the climate there was mild,the Numenoreans in the towns near the haven needed food.

Another reason for my disagreement is the fact the this region was the closest one to Eressea and there was the beautiful bay of Eldanna.The contacts with the elves,the great relationships in the beginning had definitely impact on the population of the region.More and more Numenoreans may have been attracted by the contacts with the elves,the beauty of the region and may have settled near the haven of the bay of Eldanna......

I will post some more things and comments on the other regions later this week...


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## Ingwë (Jul 11, 2005)

*Re: The Economy of Númenor*



Gil-Galad said:


> Let me disagree with you...:...


You misunderstood me... The quote is _'The Andustar was also rocky in its* northern parts*, with high firwoods looking out upon the sea ' _so I mean that these northern parts were sparsely populated  The souther part _was _populated. I said '_There have been merchandise traffic among the different regions of Númenor, so they have exported wood, fruit and vegetables, rice, corn; and they have imported stones, leather, wheat. people have been farmers.' _So the southern part was populated, especially Andúnië - the trade centre of Andustar. The southern part was populated because the people could produce their own food and they even exported goods  But I think they exported goods for the other regions and they didn't exported such goods in Middle earth because the peoples there could produce them  



> it was used mostly for pastures


 What do you mean? 'Pastures'? Places where animals eats grass and fields where they produced goods like corn, rice, etc. I don't think that these fertile lands were used for pastures. There were pastures in Mittalmar. 

I will wait for for comments. 
Btw., Gil, I'm glad to see you here again


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## Gil-Galad (Jul 13, 2005)

By pastures I meant :
_ 1.
1. Grass or other vegetation eaten as food by grazing animals.
2. Ground on which such vegetation grows, especially that which is set aside for use by domestic grazing animals.
2. The feeding or grazing of animals.
_ 

as it is in the dictionary    .

Fertile does not mean "unused" or something like that.If you take for an example the reality you will see that most of the times the shepherds go exactly to such kind of unpopulated and "fertile" places 
(for example high in the mountains or far away from lands use for agriculture)because they provide more and much better("fresh" if you want  ) "food" for the animals.

That is why I mentioned this.The southern parts were not occupied by agriculture,provided lots of plans,loan,forests,etc, and were exactly what the flocks of the farmers near the haven needed.


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## Ingwë (Jul 15, 2005)

So you think that the south land provoded food for the animals? Indeed the shepherd used such territories but I think that these lands were used as fields and the Númenorean produced corn, rice, etc. They needed these goods so I think that they were produced in Andustar, in these south lands. But we mustn't forget that there were forests. I attached Map of Númenor, so we see the forests. But it is said that there were fertile lands! This fertile lands were near Mittalmar, yes, but it doesn't mean that they were used for pastures. There were enough pastures in Mittalmar (the chief region of the shepherds). I don't think that these lands werer unpopulated. I think that 'Fertile' means 'populated' because it provided excellent opportunities for developing agriculture. 

Map of Númenor

A nice discussion is forming...


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## Gil-Galad (Jul 15, 2005)

Ingwë said:


> So you think that the south land provoded food for the animals? Indeed the shepherd used such territories but I think that these lands were used as fields and the Númenorean produced corn, rice, etc. They needed these goods so I think that they were produced in Andustar, in these south lands. But we mustn't forget that there were forests. I attached Map of Númenor, so we see the forests. But it is said that there were fertile lands! This fertile lands were near Mittalmar, yes, but it doesn't mean that they were used for pastures. There were enough pastures in Mittalmar (the chief region of the shepherds). I don't think that these lands werer unpopulated. I think that 'Fertile' means 'populated' because it provided excellent opportunities for developing agriculture.
> 
> A nice discussion is forming...



You did not get my point.
I meant that the south of Andustar could have been used for some pastures,especially by the farmers who lived near the haven and the northern parts of Andustar.As I said it was the closest to them and their flocks.


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## Ingwë (Jul 25, 2005)

Gil-Galad said:


> You did not get my point.
> I meant that the south of Andustar could have been used for some pastures,especially by the farmers who lived near the haven and the northern parts of Andustar.As I said it was the closest to them and their flocks.


Yes, I agree  Well, I would say 'parts of the southern part of Andustar'. These were vast lands, so there were enough place for pastures and fields.

Let's contunue with the different regions


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