# Secret Fire:  Sil vs. FOTR



## GuardianRanger (Jan 1, 2003)

From Valaquenta (in my edition of Silmarilion, page 17):



> Therefore Iluvatar gave to their vision Being, and set it amid the Void, and The Secret Fire was sent to burn at the heart of the World; and it was called Ea.



In FOTR, (book II, chapter 5) (in my edition, page429):



> 'You can not pass,' he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. 'I am a servent of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor....'



I know Gandalf wears one of the Elven rings, the ring of flame, Narya, I believe. But my question is:

The two references to The Secret Fire...are they the same or is this coincidence? I suspect they are the same, but I'm not sure.


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## Confusticated (Jan 1, 2003)

Ah... a new member 
Wlecome to the forum GuardianRanger!
I don't know what else it could be, I surely don't think it would be a coincidence because I don't think Tolkien woud have used something as important as "secret fire" of Iluvatar to refer to something else.


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## Great Khan (Jan 1, 2003)

I think their different because i think gandalf is refering to this "flame of arnor" which i don't think is this secret fire that iluvatar is referring to. I think she is referring to the core of the earth.


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## Lhunithiliel (Jan 2, 2003)

Well, the wizards, are said to be sent to ME from the West, yet there is a strong supposition that they actually were the heralds and the "agents" of Illuvatar himself.
Therefore, I strongly suspect that Gandalf's flame was _that_ flame. 
At least, I have thought so about this matter.

Interesting question BTW, and welcome to the forum!


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## Gil-Galad (Jan 3, 2003)

Well,there was a similar thread some time ago.Anor is the sun isn't it?I would say also that Narya is the fire of hope in people's souls.It is the ring that has the power to give people strenght not to surrender.So,we can make a parallel between Anor(the sun-symbol of hope and power for all ancient civilizations) and Narya,and I definitely think there is a connection between them


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## Arvedui (Jan 6, 2003)

I believe the 'Secret Fire' have the same meaning in both the books. Gandalf only states that he is a *servant* of the Secret Fire, not that he masters it.


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## Brent (Jan 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Great Khan _
> *I think their different because i think gandalf is refering to this "flame of arnor" which i don't think is this secret fire that iluvatar is referring to. I think she is referring to the core of the earth. *



Interesting point raised here. As I understand it the Flame Imperishable and the Secret Fire are one and the same and it is ALWAYS "with" Eru. Melkor goes in search of it but finds it not. This is the secret of the creation of life, life self aware unlike the creations of Aule (Dwarves) before they are adopted by Eru.
And Eru sends it to burn at the heart of the world (so it IS the core of the world) and so give it being. Also somewhere it says that the strength of this flame in men is the reason they wither and age so fast and they seek always beyond the confines of the world for peace.
Morgoth could not create life nor could Aule because they lacked the "secret fire"

my understanding is that Gandalf is letting the Balrog understand that he isn't just facing another Maia but one who follows and is supported by Eru himself.

Just my way of seeing things.


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## Brent (Jan 7, 2003)

Also it doesn't have to be that the Secret Fire and the Flame of Arnor are the same.

"I am a servant of the secret fire wielder of the flame of arnor" is just the same as saying "I am the servant of the One wielder of the great blade Glamdring"

They could be two different things


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## Rúmil (Jan 7, 2003)

I think the two are the same: the Secret Fire of the two books would be the same as the Imperishable Flame of the Ainulindalë.

I think it means:

"I am the servant of the One, my mission is to bring the light of hope and goodness to Middle-Earth"


An interesting quetion would be: why did Gandalf speak in coded words? Maybe he didn't want the others to know exactly who or what he was, as it could cause problems later on... just a guess...


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## Arvedui (Jan 8, 2003)

Or it could be that he said it that way because the Professor thought it sounded good. I did, at least.

Not my meaning to stop any discussion on this topic. If he had not spoken in coded words, we wouldn't have had any thing to discuss.


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## Brent (Jan 8, 2003)

Both your answers sound good to me, I think it sounds excellent.
What i also like about that bit is the way the Balrog has Legolas spooked but the two men go back to help Gandalf against the Balrog.
BTW that's no disrespect to Legolas or the other members of the company, just illustrates something that Finrod Felagund noticed about the edain.


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## Confusticated (Jan 8, 2003)

I think that 'flame of Anor' is not the same as 'secret fire'. I think flame of Anor might be his Ring... though he didn't say 'and' between these two so maybe they are the same. Anor is Sun, yes? Sun doesn't equal flame inperishable.


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## Arvedui (Jan 8, 2003)

> What i also like about that bit is the way the Balrog has Legolas spooked but the two men go back to help Gandalf against the Balrog.


I have speculated about this somewhere else before, don't remember which thread, but:
IMO, Legolas knows exactly what a Balrog is, but Boromir and Aragorn doesn't. they just act on their instinct as fighters when they encounter danger: they step up to fight it. Legolas has the wits of elves, and knows that Gandalf is right when saying that "This foe is beyond any of you (us?)"
So I wouldn't call legolas spooked, but just plain intelligent.


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## Rúmil (Jan 8, 2003)

I think it sounds great too, but I think the following line "the Dark Fire will not avail you, Flame of Udûn!" is even better. I like the way sir Ian said it, too.


It may have something to do with his Ring: 'the flame of Anor' may be both a metaphor for Narya and for the fire of the sun that warms and brings hope: the two are linked by all accounts.


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## BlackCaptain (Jan 8, 2003)

When TTT was come out, there was an article in my news paper about Tolkien, and LOTR and stuff. I read it, and it even mentioned this. Everyone knows that Tolkien is Catholic, and they were talking about this in the news article at the time. One of Tolkien's friends asked Tolkien about this (the Secret Flame) and Tolkien said that there was no history behind it in Middle-Earth. The "Secret Flame" Is actually the Holy Spirit. Now unless there was a mix-up between Tolkien and his friend, im assuming this is true, because this newspaper allways tells the truth. Im not saying that all of your ideas arent possible, its just that this is a very trustworthy paper, and im believing it. You may be wondering "why would tolkien put that in?" 

Well, if any of you know, Disney is perverted, and add in subliminal messages and images that you cant see (unless you do frame by frame), and they are, well, quite perverted. Why do they do it? Just because they can, and no one will ever know, so who cares? I think tolkien did it just because he could. And he might have put history behind it when he was later writing the Silmarillion, just in case anyone wanted to know. But it would add a twist that upped the readers wonder, and it made Gandalf sound totaly cool!


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## Arvedui (Jan 9, 2003)

You can't really tell if he put it in the Sil later, since much of the Sil was actually written *before* the LotR. So it could very well be that he knew well what the 'Secret Fire' was.


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## Confusticated (Jan 9, 2003)

He absolutely did know what the Secret fire was before writing The Lord of The Rings... it is even mentioned in The Book of Lost Tales 1, which he started in 1916-17 and was done with (correct me if I am wrong?) several years later.


Okay I'm back... I'm not sure that he didn't write more on the BoLT later. But I think most of The Silmarillion was done by the 1930s... so I can't imagine that Secret Fire began with The Lord of the Rings.


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## Brent (Jan 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MorgulKing _
> *Well, if any of you know, Disney is.... *




err MorgulKing, don't want to be rude or anything but your post from this bit on is highly defamatory of the Disney Corporation. (libel actually). Posting such accusations to a bulletin board could cause serious problems for you and the operators of that bulletin board. Please be careful what you say.

I think the newspaper article kind of agrees with what we're saying.


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## Brent (Jan 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Arvedui _
> *I have speculated about this somewhere else before, don't remember which thread, but:
> IMO, Legolas knows exactly what a Balrog is, but Boromir and Aragorn doesn't. they just act on their instinct as fighters when they encounter danger: they step up to fight it. Legolas has the wits of elves, and knows that Gandalf is right when saying that "This foe is beyond any of you (us?)"
> So I wouldn't call legolas spooked, but just plain intelligent. *



Nope, think we'll have to differ on that, the way I read the written bit its not written that way. If I was "intelligently afraid" I'd say something like "My God !! ... A Balrog, run for your lives" or various formulas thereof. If I shouted "Aiee" or "Arrrgh!!" or some such "A Balrog is come" The first bit would be FEAR. 
Though in the end I think its a matter of personal interpretation.
- remind me not to explore old Dwarf mansions with an Elf I'll take a couple of witless men with me


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## ssgrif (Jan 13, 2003)

Just to add my two penneth on the subject:

My thoughts are that when Gandalf spoke to Durins Bane on the Bridge of Khazad-dum "Servant of the Secret Fire" I think he was basically saying "I am a servant of the power of Illuvatar". Being that the Secret fire was the power of creation, Gandalf had to be referring to Illuvatar.

I know the Valar could create things and beings, as the did. But only Illuvatar had the power to create everything and anything, including Ea.

I doubt that Gandalf was actually referring to Narya as this would be a little daft to around shouting to the high heavens that you are a ring-bearer!


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## GuardianRanger (Jan 13, 2003)

As I plug further along through the Sil, I come to think that ssgrif is correct. But, maybe it's just coincidence that the ring that Gandalf is wearing is Narya.

....back to the Sil.


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## ssgrif (Jan 14, 2003)

It doesnt seem right to me that Gandalf, probably the wisest of all who ever walked through ME, Would have told his foe, of the same race and power, that he was weilding the ring Narya.

It would be like Frodo going up to the Black gate, knocking on the door, and asking for safe passage as he has the One ring on him, and needs to get to Mount Doom!

Or, "Hey Durins Bane, try and hit me if you can, I've got the ring Narya on me so I'll be safe". 

Dont you think the Balrog would have tried something else, instead of trying to kill him with his sword, or slash him with his whip?


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## Confusticated (Jan 14, 2003)

So what do you think "wielder of the flame of Anor" was refering to if not Narya?


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## ssgrif (Jan 15, 2003)

I was talking about the Secret Fire, as this thread refers to, but My idea on the comment of Gandalf being the wielder of the flame of Anor is probably him stating that he is a servant of the Valar, and wielder of the power of the West.

Maybe its a reference to the powers of the West coming from the two trees in Valinor. The trees of the Moon and Sun.


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## Arvedui (Jan 16, 2003)

IMO, ssgrif hits bulls-eye. Servant of the Secret Fire = Servant of Ilúvatar. The way I read it is Gandalf stating clearly that he's powers are given from Ilúvatar himself.

Well, just my interpretation.


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## Confusticated (Jan 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ssgrif _*
> I was talking about the Secret Fire, as this thread refers to...*





> _Originally posted by ssgrif _
> *It doesnt seem right to me that Gandalf, probably the wisest of all who ever walked through ME, Would have told his foe, of the same race and power, that he was weilding the ring Narya.
> 
> It would be like Frodo going up to the Black gate, knocking on the door, and asking for safe passage as he has the One ring on him, and needs to get to Mount Doom!
> ...


Sounds to me like you are addressing people (such as myself) who said that "weilder of the flame on Anor" was reference to Narya.
No one said that "secret fire" refers to Narya... did they?

I think everyone agrees that "secret fire" refers to Iluvatar... can't imagine what else it might be and in my opinion it seems pretty obvious


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