# dwarf and elven hatred



## Nazgul_Lord (Jan 22, 2002)

I'm not entirely sure about why the dwarves and the elves have such a deep hatred of one another, could anyone help to enlighten me on this, and if there is any info in any of the books about it please tell me what book and where it is. Thanks.


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## Cygnus (Jan 22, 2002)

Doesn't that have something to do with the creation of the rings? Or was it mentioned in the Silmarillion. I really don't remember. But I think there is some sort of connection to the Rings of Power. If i'm wrong someone correct me


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## Celebrimbor (Jan 22, 2002)

This subject has been stumping me for awhile, all I've come up with is that nobody really knows why Dwarves and Elves had such enmity for each other. We know that sometime in the First Age there were wars between Dwarves and Elves and that this greatly hurt the population of the Dwarves, but we do not know the reason these wars broke out. Perhaps the Elves hurt the great pride of the Dwarves in some way. It is doubtful that the Elves were after the Dwarves' treasure (which is what caused the wars between Men and Dwarves). If anyone else has any ideas please contibute!


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## Celebrimbor (Jan 22, 2002)

*Sorry, here's an addition...*

I'm not absolutely positive, but I was under the impression that the Dwarves were trying to stay out of this whole ring-business after the Seven became lost.


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## Snaga (Jan 22, 2002)

Try this thread, about 7 posts down...

Mirkwood Elves


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## Atticus (Jan 22, 2002)

Actually. the drawves killed Thingol, the elven king, because he wanted their necklace, the Nauglamir, to hold the Silmaril he had gotten from Beren's quest. This necklace was among the greatest drawven treasures, as was the Silmaril one of the greatest treasures among elven-kind. This is, I am pretty sure, one of the main reasons, if not the main reason, that these races were enemies for so long.


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## Beleg Strongbow (Jan 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Atticus _
> *Actually. the drawves killed Thingol, the elven king, because he wanted their necklace, the Nauglamir, to hold the Silmaril he had gotten from Beren's quest. This necklace was among the greatest drawven treasures, as was the Silmaril one of the greatest treasures among elven-kind. This is, I am pretty sure, one of the main reasons, if not the main reason, that these races were enemies for so long. *





Not quite right. The nauglimir the best works of dwarves ever was given 2 Finrod Felagund and after the desolation of Glaurung hurin got the necklace and gave it 2 thingol who still had the silmaril which beren and luthien won. He then hired the dwarves of Belegost 2 put the 2 together silmaril=nagulimir and he was going to reward them greatly. But when they finished the dwarves took the silmaril for themselves and slew Thingol. They fled and 2 of them were killed and the jewel regained by the elves.

But 2 more of them got away and they told the others at belegost that the elves stole the jewel and wouldn't pay them and they then slew the 2 other dwarves. This promted a war in which the dwarves of Belegost fought against the elves of Doriath. They got through the girdle cause melian was greiving 4 thingol. Celeborn was a kinsman of thingol so the hate lived on. Also many of the elves of eregion thought that the dwarves awaked the balrog in moria and promted them to flee. It might also have something to do with dwarves fighting 4 sauron on his side during the last alliance. Sindarin elves thought dwarves were greedy and didn't care about the envirponment.


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## Nimawae's hope (Jan 23, 2002)

According to the Silmarillion, Dwarves and Elves were doomed to have bad relationships with each other from the beginning. Probably most of the tension comes from the fact that they were so different. Elves loved all growing things, and preferred to stay under the stars. Dwarves on the other hand loved to make things beautiful, and were willing to kill some of the growing things (trees) to help them make better and more beautiful halls and gems.


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## Lantarion (Jan 23, 2002)

Hmm, I kinda agree with that; but the Dwarves were quite friendly with the people of Caranthir for a long time, when they came over the Ered Luin. I think it is because Aulë created them in such a huff and hurry that he didn't concentrate enough on their people skills, and so they were socially a bit untrustworthy. But a great reason for the emnity in the Third Age is because the Dwarves let loose one of the supposedly dead Balrogs that remained after the destruction of Beleriand from Khazad-dûm, when mining too deep for _mithril_.


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## Celebrimbor (Jan 23, 2002)

I think Nimawae has a good point. It is true that the two personalities are totally different. They have different values and don't always agree. In dwarf language, disagreeing is hurtful of their immense pride. This could have lead things to get blown out of proportion in more than one incident. I think Pontifex has a good point too when he mentions the Balrog, but both races were fighting long before the third age. Maybe it's just an age old enmity... like cats and dogs? This will be debated forever


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## Ståle (Jan 23, 2002)

The main reason could be that Elves are the Children of Illuvatar, while Dwarves are the creation of Aulë.


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## Nimawae's hope (Jan 23, 2002)

Thank you for your support, Celebrimbor. My main point was that because of their differences, other "smaller" incidents would arise throughout the history of Middle Earth that would cause both races to feel cool toward each other.


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## Nazgul_Lord (Jan 23, 2002)

*Thankyou very much for all your help*

My tolkien buddies and i took all the info that you gave me and put it together with what we already knew and we think we may have pretty much the whole story, so i'll post it on here when we refine it, and of course if you find anything wrong with it please tell me


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## Harry_Potter (Jan 23, 2002)

legolas and gimli dont hate each other


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## Kit Baggins (Jan 24, 2002)

They do at the start.

~Kit


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## Nazgul_Lord (Feb 2, 2002)

yes they do with a passion


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## SupremeWizard (Feb 3, 2002)

Wasnt the reason that the dwarves didnt have great people skills that Aule deliberately created them that way to survive the time of Darkness?


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## TulKas Astaldo (Feb 4, 2002)

All were Children of Illuvatar. Without his help in the creation of the Dwarves, they would have been 'lifeless puppets' which Aule could command as he willed... Illuvatar gave them a personality, and it was his decision to make it so much different from the Elves'.

Anyway though the root of the hatred is in fact the Nauglamir and the Silmaril, though I don't remember anything about Dwarves EVER fighting for Sauron...


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## Uminya (Feb 5, 2002)

Aye, I don't recall any dwarves having ever fought for Sauron or Morgoth (although I do recall a questionable reference to a possible connection at some point), but there were what might be considered 'evil' dwarves to us; ones that were perhaps more self-centered than the norm and said, "We durstn't have no peeple skillz, so weez hateses everyone, Ar!"

Or something like that


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## Snaga (Feb 5, 2002)

In one of the First Age wars - War of Wrath I think - the Silmarillion states that all the races of Middle Earth were divided except the elves. So the dwarves would have fought on both sides. I think only a small number would have fought for Morgoth though.


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## Taranir (Feb 6, 2002)

*Hate*

Sindar didn't get along with dwarves 'cos of the Thingol-Nauglamir -Thing. Noldor of Eregion and Dwarves of Moria were good pals. Elves of Eregion didn't flee 'cos the Balrog. Balrog came around some 3500+ years later. Some of the dwarves fought at the lines of Sauron In the war of last alliance.


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## Anira the Elf (Feb 10, 2002)

all i have to say is: dwarves have ax's, trees no like ax's, elves love trees, elves don't want dwarves to cut down trees. need i say more.


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