# Galadriel's love for her brother



## Ithrynluin (Feb 5, 2003)

There are several reasons for Galadriel's remaining in Middle Earth:
- her pride and unwillingness to return to Aman
- her desire to see the wide and distant lands of ME and rule there a land of her own, for the exercise of her talents
- she felt that evil remained in ME and that it was her duty to help bring about its downfall

Could there be another reason for her determined stay in ME?

From _Unfinished Tales, The History of Galadriel and Celeborn_:


> And like her brother Finrod, of all her kin *the nearest to her heart*, she had dreams of far lands and dominions that might be her own to order as she would without tutelage.



Finrod was the closest to her heart, she had much love for him.



> "Nay," she said. "Angrod is gone, and Aegnor is gone, and Felagund is no more. Of Finarfin's children I am the last."



Galadriel says this with much sadness, melancholy or even regret.

Finrod was slain by Sauron in the First Age. In the Second Age, Sauron perceived that Galadriel would be his chief obstacle, and she saw through his fair guise and rejected him.

Therefore my question is, could another reason for Galadriel's lingering in ME be her love for Finrod and ultimately the avenging of his death (to destroy Sauron and thus avenge his premature death)?


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## Lhunithiliel (Feb 5, 2003)

I have voted.

And though there is much truth in saying that she suffered a lot for the loss of her brothers, I still don't think that Galadriel stayed in ME for reasons of avenging their death.

I definitely think that she stayed because she loved her realm and she felt powerful and important and needed in ME. Those are very strong reasons for a High Noldor as she was to refuse to go back to the Blessed Realm and stay in the "turmoil" of the events in ME.


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## Confusticated (Feb 5, 2003)

Because Tolkien never mentions it, I do not think revenge could have been her primary reason.

I am reminded of the debate that asks if Feanor abandoned his cousins' people with the intention of giving them a chance for redeption.


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 5, 2003)

I am not asking whether it was her primary reason, because it was not, plain and simple.

I am asking: *Did she stay in ME to avenge her brother's death? *This being one of the secondary reasons.


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## Maedhros (Feb 5, 2003)

> I am asking: Did she stay in ME to avenge her brother's death?


No, revenge I would not be the motive of the Galadriel that JRRT wanted to be.
How about of the love she had for the land and her husband Celeborn.


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## Rúmil (Feb 5, 2003)

Revenge over Morgoth was the cause for the rebellion of the Noldor, along with greed for lands to rule. That is why the war on Morgoth was without final hope. 

After the downfall of Morgoth, IMO, though she had not yet overcome her pride, she percieved this. I do not think she ever nurtured any deep longing for revenge, especially as Felagund died of free will and in sacrifice, and soon was 'resurrected'. So I do not thing that revenge was a motive, even secondary, for her staying.


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## gate7ole (Feb 5, 2003)

I have to go with option two, since I also don't think that revenge is what Galadriel was seeking. Throughout the Ages, after the War of Warth, she was away from wars and only wanted to have a peaceful realm to govern.


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## gilgalad (Feb 10, 2003)

I think she stayed because of her love of Lothlorien. I think this is supported by the fact that she left Middle Earth after the War of the Ring because the power of her own ring diminished and Lothlorien had begun to dwindle. She therefore had nothing left to stay for.

What do you mean when you say she stayed for her pride?? What did pride have to do with it?


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## Nenya Evenstar (Feb 10, 2003)

I voted yes. Tolkien's Elves seem to have a strong quality and desire to avenge their kin as well as a desire to wage constant war on Melkor and his successors. I can easily see how Galadriel would have a hunger to make Sauron pay for any pain he and his legions had caused as well as to help protect the good and beautiful things that yet remained without protection. I would not classify it as only revenge for her brother, however. I would say that it was revenge for all her people, perhaps even for the rifts that grew between the Teleri and the Noldor after the Kinslaying. I am sure she hated Morgoth for those reasons and I'm sure she could not just turn her back on that knowledge to go back to Valinor in peace while leaving Sauron to rome freely when he had caused her and her people so much pain. I cannot help but think that she was bitter towards him and his deceit, and I'm sure she wanted to avenge herself and her kin.


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## gilgalad (Feb 10, 2003)

But as gate7ole said, during the third age she did precious little in the way of fighting. She really didn't do much in opposition of Sauron except to keep Lothlorien protected.

Surely, if she was driven by revenge she would have taken a somewhat more active role in Sauron's downfall?


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## Nenya Evenstar (Feb 10, 2003)

> I think she stayed because of her love of Lothlorien.


You can't forget that Galadriel had probably never even seen Lothlorien at this time. She had been living in Beleriand and had probably never even crossed over the mountains to the East of Beleriand (Ered Luin).


> What do you mean when you say she stayed for her pride?? What did pride have to do with it?


We are referring to the Curse of the Noldor which was placed upon the Noldor after they slew their kin at Alqualonde. The Noldor were trying to leave Aman and needed ships; only they had to kill their kin to get the ships. The Valar gave the Noldor the choice to remain in Aman or leave with a curse, and the greater part of them left with the curse.


> _The Silmarillion_Then all halted and stood still, and from end to end of the hosts of the Noldor the voice was heard speaking the curse and prophecy which is called the Prophecy of the North, and the Doom of the Noldor. Much it foretold in dark words, which the Noldor understood not until the woes indeed after befell them; but all heard the curse that was uttered upon those that would not stay nor seek the doom and pardon of the Valar.
> 'Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains. On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar Leith from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also. Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass. The Dispossessed shall they be for ever.
> 'Ye have spilled the blood of your kindred unrighteously and have stained the land of Aman. For blood ye shall render blood, and beyond |man ye shall dwell in Death's shadow. For though Eru appointed to you to die not in Eä, and no sickness may assail you, yet slain ye may be, and slain ye shall be; by weapon and by torment and by grief; and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you. And those that endure in Middle-earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world an with a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after. The Valar have spoken.
> Then many quailed; but Fëanor hardened his heart and said: 'We have sworn, and not lightly. This oath we well keep. We are threatened with many evils, and treason not lest; but one thing is not said: that we shall suffer from cowardice, from cravens or the fear of cravens. Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deed that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda.
> But in that hour Finarfin forsook the march, and turned back, being filled with grief, and with bitterness against the House of Fëanor, because of his kinship with Olwë of Alqualondë; and many of his people went with him, retracing their steps in sorrow, until they beheld once more the far beam of the Mindon upon Túna still shining in the night, and so came at last to Valinor. There they received the pardon of the Valar, and Finarfin was set to rule the remnant of the Noldor in the Blessed Realm. But his sons were not with him, for they would not forsake the sons of Fingolfin; and all Fingolfin's folk went forward still, feeling the constraint of their kinship and the will of Fëanor, and fearing to face the doom of the Valar, since not all of them had been guiltless of the Kinslaying at Alqualondë. Moreover Fingon and Turgon were bold and fiery of heart, and loath to abandon any task to which they had put their hands until the bitter end, if bitter it must be. So the main host held on, and swiftly the evil that was foretold began its work.


This is what we mean by pride. When the War of Wrath was concluded, the Noldor were pardoned and given passage back to Valinor. However, many still had pride in their hearts because of the past and would not accept forgiveness.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Feb 10, 2003)

> Surely, if she was driven by revenge she would have taken a somewhat more active role in Sauron's downfall?


I do not think she was driven by revenge but only that vengeance had to have been present in her mind. That vengeance probably influenced her decision to stay in Middle-earth.

Galadriel's power was not in war but in the preservation of what was good and beautiful. Sauron feared her and knew her wisdom. She was one of the White Council, one of the main leaders of the good forces. I do think she did a lot. Also, don't forget the Last Alliance of Men and Elves that was made at the end of the Second Age. I am sure she had much part in the first destruction of Sauron. Just because Galadriel, Elrond, and all elves for that matter seemed to sit back and watch during the War of the Ring does not mean anything, only that the tides of time were changing and that the fate of the world was in the hands of the small instead of the great.


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## gilgalad (Feb 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Nenya Evenstar _
> * Just because Galadriel, Elrond, and all elves for that matter seemed to sit back and watch during the War of the Ring does not mean anything, *



Of course this means something! It shows that rather than being interested in the matters of consequence of the 3rd Age she was interested in her own realm. She didn't leave ME because Sauron was defeated, she left because of a corollory of this, ie that Lothlorien would dwindle. 

The fact that they "seemed" to watch (though i don't know why you say "seemed" because this is exactly what they did) events unfold rather than taking an active role in them shows more than just an inexhorable dwindling of the power of the Eldar on Middle Earth, it shows their growing disinterest in Me's affairs.


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 11, 2003)

She was interested in her own realm? Of course she was - that is a common trait of every competent and wise leader. On Gondor the main blow of Sauron fell, but not the only by far. If you for one moment think that the great Elves of Middle Earth contributed nothing to Sauron's demise, remember all the great battles that happened in other places, not least being the assault on Lórien (three times, mind you):



> Three times Lórien had been assailed from Dol Guldur. but besides the valour of the elven people of that land the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome,
> unless Sauron had come there himself.



Does this mean anything to you.

Furthermore, Galadriel(and other important Elves) was a member of the White Council, and she was one of the prominent 
members, who directed the opposition against Sauron. She aided the Fellowship greatly, not only with advice but with gifts as well (what would Frodo and Sam have done without the light of her phial?).
She commanded the Eagles to go look for Gandalf at Zirak-Zigil, and he was brought to Lórien whence he set off to find the Three Companions just in time to turn the tide. Not the least of Galadriel's deeds.
Do not forget the fact that Sauron FEARED her, and he perceived her to be his CHIEF obstacle.
She advised Celebrimbor what was to be done with the Three Rings of the Elves.

A similar case can be made for Elrond.

All of these actions were of great importance and Middle Earth would have ended in darkness if it weren't for the Elves and the combined efforts of all the people.


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## Inderjit S (Feb 12, 2003)

I voted 'no', for several reasons. 

Sure, the death of her favourite brother may have upset her, but I think she stayed for other reasons. First of all, I think here dream of a realm to rule, that she had since she was in Aman, and one of the prime motivations in leaving Aman, could've now been realised, and of course she set up her own small, independent realm of the Lake Evendim, and later on in Lothlorien. I also think that Celeborn wasn't ready to leave M-E, as of yet, and that she would've wanted to remain with him. 
And of course, her pride would've led her to stay as well.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Feb 12, 2003)

Of course those are all reasons...but can you really overlook the revenge that Galadriel must have wanted? I feel that one of the primary reasons for her staying would have been the need to fight back, to fight against all evil for what it had done to her and her people and to protect Middle-earth from that evil. And this would include Finrod's death. Can you really overlook that? I feel that this is one of the primary reasons -- much more potent in fact than Celeborn, her realm, or her pride to return to Aman. It would be more a pride issue on not wishing to give up, pride to keep fighting against Melkor's touch he had on the world.


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## Inderjit S (Feb 12, 2003)

Why would Galdriel decide to remain in M-E, for 'revenge'? When she made her decsion, she didn't even know that Sauron or any other powerful, evil creature of Morgoth was about, or ready to cause trouble.


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## Thorin (Feb 12, 2003)

I think why Galadriel stayed in ME can be summed up in basically three reasons:

1) Her shame and pride at the rebellion of the Noldor and their banishment from Valinor, despite the lifted ban.

2) Her love for Celeborn, an Elf of ME and not Valinor

3) Her desire as one of the Eldest in ME and one of the last of the high elves of Valinor to rule a kingdom in ME

I really don't think revenge against Sauron for her brother was any real reason. As was mentioned, Sauron was supposedly vanquished in the Second Age and nobody knew that he had arisen for hundreds of years. Galadriel could have sailed into the West many times.

Plus, it is made obvious in LoTR that the Elves time was waning, even at the height of Sauron's power. Wouldn't you think that that is the time to take action against Sauron? If she didn't do it when Sauron was weak (i.e. when he was taken to Numenor) and she didn't do it when he was truly a threat (in the Third Age), that makes it pretty plain that defeating Sauron for her brother's death was not a reason for her remaining in ME.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Feb 12, 2003)

Hmmm... perhaps "revenge" is not the right word. How about a desire to protect what was good and untouched from the devouring enemy? That was probably what made an elven ring so attractive to her. So, in a sense it was revenge, but a more subtle revenge.

Remember that Galadriel _did_ do things to fight against Sauron as outlined by ithrynluin earlier.


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Thorin _
> *
> I really don't think revenge against Sauron for her brother was any real reason. As was mentioned, Sauron was supposedly vanquished in the Second Age and nobody knew that he had arisen for hundreds of years. Galadriel could have sailed into the West many times.
> *





> _Originally posted by Inderjit S _
> *Why would Galdriel decide to remain in M-E, for 'revenge'? When she made her decsion, she didn't even know that Sauron or any other powerful, evil creature of Morgoth was about, or ready to cause trouble. *



From UT: The history of G&C:


> For love of Celeborn, who would not leave Middle-Earth (and probably with some pride of her own, for she had been one of those eager to adventure there), she did not go West at the Downfall of Melkor, but crossed Ered Lindon with Celeborn, and came into Eriador.



Thorin, we are not denying that the primary reasons for her staying in ME were her love of ME and Celeborn, her pride and desire to rule a land of her own. She did not know however, that Sauron was not vanquished along with Melkor.



> But eventually Galadriel became aware that Sauron again, as in the ancient days of the captivity of Melkor, had been left behind. Or rather, since Sauron had as yet no single name, and his operations had not been perceived to proceed from a single evil spirit, prime servant of Melkor, she perceived that there was an evil controlling purpose abroad in the world, and that it seemed to proceed from a source further to the East, beyond Eriador and the Misty Mountains.



After deciding to stay in ME for the reasons I stated above, she perceived an evil power, and this possibly added to her determination to stay in ME and do anything she can to bring about its downfall. 



> In Eregion, Sauron posed as an emissary of the Valar, sent by them to Middle Earth or ordered by them to remain there to give aid to the Elves. He perceived at once that Galadriel would be his chief adversary and obstacle, and he endeavoured therefore to placate her, bearing her scorn with outward patience and courtesy.



Why did he fear her THE MOST, why not Gil-Galad, who was High King and commanded the bulk of the Elven armies? There must have been more to this than just Galadriel's personal power/knowledge/greatness. Did Sauron know who she was? I daresay he did. She was the sister of Finrod Felagund, whom he slain at Tol Sirion long ago. I would say that was another reason for Sauron to fear her motives. Sorry folks, but that is simply the way I see it. Though this is nowhere explicitly stated, it is not a far-fetched theory either.


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## Thorin (Feb 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *Why did he fear her THE MOST, why not Gil-Galad, who was High King and commanded the bulk of the Elven armies? There must have been more to this than just Galadriel's personal power/knowledge/greatness. Did Sauron know who she was? I daresay he did. She was the sister of Finrod Felagund, whom he slain at Tol Sirion long ago. I would say that was another reason for Sauron to fear her motives. Sorry folks, but that is simply the way I see it. Though this is nowhere explicitly stated, it is not a far-fetched theory either. *




Perhaps, though it is not certain. Keep in mind that Galadriel was also the daughter of Finarfin, grand-daughter of Finwe, one of the highest elves, and niece of Feanor, one of Morgoth's chief foes. She saw the kin slaying brought about by the deception of Morgoth on Feanor. Not only did she see all of that, but she was really the highest elf in ME (Next to Thingol) and was a Noldor who lived in Valinor and saw it all (Which Thingol did not). 

All of these could have contributed to Sauron's concern for Galadriel, and not just because Finrod was slain by Sauron.


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## Inderjit S (Feb 13, 2003)

The reason why Sauron was afraid of Galadriel was because she was the greatest of the Noldor, except for Feanor. 

Plus, he may have had an inane fear of women, after being defeated by one. (Well one woman and her dog.)


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## Nenya Evenstar (Feb 14, 2003)

> All of these could have contributed to Sauron's concern for Galadriel, and not just because Finrod was slain by Sauron.





> The reason why Sauron was afraid of Galadriel was because she was the greatest of the Noldor, except for Feanor.


 Let me ask you this: Why did Sauron think that Galadriel was such an enemy? Why was he afraid of her? Because of her knowledge of what he himself had done and because of what she could do to him because of that knowledge. It ties into this whole "protection" issue.


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## Beleg (Feb 15, 2003)

I voted for the first option.
To me Gladriel's stay in ME was based on a Multilude of Factor's and not only because of A Wish to Rule Lands. 
The "second choice" alone seems a bit out-of-character for a Lady like Galadriel to base upon her stay in Middle Earth.
For Elves being granted with Immortality have all their life to observe and enjoy non-living things. 
i also feel that Her Pride was also a major factor. She had been a major leader in the Rebillion of Noldor and though she hadn't been offically forbidden to seek Aman, but Her Noldo Pride would have forced her to stay in ME till her purpose is complete so that when she returns to Aman she doesn't have to suffer any humilation just because she wasn't able to banish the evil completely and fullfill her cause of leaving. 
For The main cause of Noldor's flight was to regain the SIlmaril's and if possible banish Evil from Middle Earth. After the first age a remnant of Evil was still left in the Middle Earth and she might have felt it as her duty to help destroy the evil for she herself had not taken an active part in the destruction of Morgoth. She was a major conspirator of the Rebillion, (if conspirator is the correct word) but her part in the First Ages event was next to nothing. 
She took a far more effective part in the Event's of Second and Third age and was one of the major enemies of the Dark Lord and not redundant as she had been in the first age.


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## Mirabella (Feb 18, 2003)

I voted for the first option, but only because staying out of pride or a desire to rule others seems so petty for someone like Galadriel.

She stayed for a number of reasons: her love for ME, her love for Celeborn, a desire to heal the hurts of the War of Wrath, and yes, quite possibly she felt she had unfinished business with Sauron.


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## Ithrynluin (May 4, 2003)

*bump*

I'm bringing this up again, for the newer members to participate. Please read through the whole thread before you cast your vote!


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## baragund (May 5, 2003)

I voted no. Pride seemed to be the main driving force behind her decision. She was, after all, a leader in the Noldoran rebellion againsth the Valar that lead to their curse. Also, I get the impression that she preferred ruling a Lothlorien to being just another resident of Valinor. Sort of like the "big fish in a little pond" situation. When the Three Rings passed away at the end of the Third Age, Lothlorien lost that which made it a special place, and there was no longer anything that made remaining in Middle Earth appealing to her. I think that if revenge for Fingon's death had been a factor, she would have been more active in the affairs of the Third Age.

Sorry for coming across as negative. Galadriel is actually one of my favorite characters but there is a lot to her personality; that's probably what makes her so interesting.


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## Feanorian (May 5, 2003)

She stayed in Middle Earth as long as possibly could, she loved Middle Earth and the power she had there, back in Valinor she would just be another elf at the ceremonies of the Valar, in my opinion if she had gone back any sooner she may have died of grief, possibly retelling her old stories to the elves that stayed in Valinor and remembering her beautiful forest and her power, if not death then eternal sadness, which it seems she already has. I do not think she stayed for her brothers sake, she may have desired revenge but Tolkien never mentions that she wished to avenge his death.


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## Nenya Evenstar (May 5, 2003)

I think that the returning Noldor to Aman would have been held in high esteem by all the residents of Valinor. Few had accomplished such great deeds of prowess, and few had openly done what the Noldor did. I do not think that Galadriel would have been "just another elf" in Aman had she returned earlier. I think the Noldor and their descendants would have all been treated with awe and respect upon returning to Valinor.

But at any rate, Galadriel's staying in Middle-earth for longer would have made her even more praiseworthy than had she departed earlier.


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## Inderjit S (May 6, 2003)

> I voted for the first option, but only because staying out of pride or a desire to rule others seems so petty for someone like Galadriel.



Well he pride was a part of a reason she stayed, and lets face it as a high Finwean she was bound to be proud.



> She was proud, strong and self willed, as were all the descendants of Finwe save Finarfin.... she had dreams of far lands and dominion that might be her own to order without tutelage


 The Shibboleth of Feanor; HoME 12

And her leaving of Aman was because she wanted to rule lands, was a central concept of her leaving Aman with Teleporno *giggles* not with the Noldorin hosts. 



> I do not think that Galadriel would have been "just another elf" in Aman had she returned earlier.



Tolkien states somehwhere that one of the reasons of her staying in M-E was because of her high position their, whereas she wouldn't be so respected in Aman.


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## Feanorian (May 6, 2003)

Nenya from what passage do you pull that info that the Noldor who rebelled would return to be esteemed? They were the ones who had reblled against Manwe and were under the curse of the Noldor. I think she would have respect in Valinor however I do not think she would be held in awe, rather curiosity if but for a litte while, I think times would eventually return to normal and she would be 'just another' high Noldorian elf. 



> But at any rate, Galadriel's staying in Middle-earth for longer would have made her even more praiseworthy than had she departed earlier.



Are we forgetting the fact that she and the other Noldor were not allowed to pass into the West at this time? She was shut out until she refused the ring.


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## Ithrynluin (May 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Inderjit S _
> *
> And her leaving of Aman was because she wanted to rule lands, was a central concept of her leaving Aman with Teleporno *giggles* not with the Noldorin hosts.
> 
> *



Sorry, I just don't buy this version of the story - Celeborn and Galadriel would both have been grandchildren of Olwë according to that. And the Elves did not wed such close kin.
Celeborn as an Elf of Doriath - and a much more distant relation of Galadriel - makes much more sense to me.



> Well he pride was a part of a reason she stayed, and lets face it as a high Finwean she was bound to be proud.



She could also be called 'A High Vanyarin' Elf, since her grandmother Indis was supposedly Ingwe's kinswoman. Her Vanyarin spirit was apparently even deeper than that of the Noldor. Here is the quote you provided with more context, from _Unfinished Tales_:



> Galadriel was born in the bliss of Valinor, but it was not long, in the reckoning of the Blessed Realm, before that was dimmed; and thereafter she had no peace within. For in that testing time amid the strife of the Noldor she was drawn this way and that. She was proud, strong, and selfwilled, as were all the descendants of Finwë save Finarfin; and like her brother Finrod, of all her kin the nearest to her heart, she had dreams of far lands and dominions that might be her own to order as she would without tutelage. [color=sky blue]Yet deeper still there dwelt in her the noble and generous spirit of the Vanyar, and a reverence for the Valar that she could not forget[/color].





> _Originally posted by Feanorian _
> * I think times would eventually return to normal and she would be 'just another' high Noldorian elf.
> *



Galadriel was not, and would never be, ' just another high Noldorin elf'. 



> Her mother-name was Nerwen ("man-maiden"), and she [color=sky blue]grew to be tall beyond the measure even of the women of the Noldor; she was strong of body, mind, and will, a match for both the loremasters and the athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth[/color]. Even among the Eldar she was accounted beautiful, and [color=sky blue]her hair was held a marvel unmatched[/color]. It was golden like the hair of her father and of her foremother Indis, but richer and more radiant, for its gold was touched by some memory of the starlike silver of her mother; and the Eldar said that the light of the Two Trees, Laurelin and Telperion, had been snared in her tresses. Many thought that this saying first gave to Fëanor the thought of imprisoning and blending the light of the Trees that later took shape in his hands as the Silmarils. For Fëanor beheld the hair of Galadriel with wonder and delight. He begged three times for a tress, but Galadriel would not give him even one hair. These two kinsfolk, the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor, were unfriends for ever.



Look at how very special she was, how different from the others and 'above' them...She couldn't be 'just another Elf' even if she wanted to.



> Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Fëanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years.



She was the greatest of the Noldor, except Fëanor *maybe*... And with Fëanor in the Halls of Mandos, she would be the greatest Noldo in Aman, though I daresay her greatness would expand over all three Elf kindreds.


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## Nenya Evenstar (May 6, 2003)

Of course I don't have a passage . . . it's just an idea. 


> Tolkien states somehwhere that one of the reasons of her staying in M-E was because of her high position their, whereas she wouldn't be so respected in Aman.


 Of course she wouldn't be _as_ respected, but I still think she'd be more respected than your average elf. Perhaps "awe" is not the right word, but respect definitely is. I do not think she'd ever lose that in Aman.


> Are we forgetting the fact that she and the other Noldor were not allowed to pass into the West at this time?


 Are we discussing happenings after the War of Wrath still?  If so, weren't all the scores of the Noldor cleared then?


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## Inderjit S (May 6, 2003)

> Sorry, I just don't buy this version of the story - Celeborn and Galadriel would both have been grandchildren of Olwë according to that. And the Elves did not wed such close kin.



Well that is your interpretation. A lot of people tend to look to Tolkien's last word as 'canon', and this was Tolkien's last word on the two. 



> She could also be called 'A High Vanyarin' Elf, since her grandmother Indis was supposedly Ingwe's kinswoman.



Niece, though maybe his sister, I'm unsure as to what Tolkien decided. She was also a High Telerin elf....

Also, I'm unsure did all the Noldor return to Aman? I always thought a lot of them remained on Erssea.


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## Ithrynluin (May 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Inderjit S _
> *Well that is your interpretation. A lot of people tend to look to Tolkien's last word as 'canon', and this was Tolkien's last word on the two. *



As a devoted Christian, I doubt that Tolkien would have lingered on this 'last word' for long... Incest is forbidden in Christianity - that's why I tend not to follow even Tolkien's last words if they don't make much sense and are not in accord with his beliefs.

And who knows what Tolkien would have decided if he had several years more to think it through...If his last thought was "Celeborn is an alien from Alpha Centauri", would you take that as canon?


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## Inderjit S (May 6, 2003)

> As a devoted Christian, I doubt that Tolkien would have lingered on this 'last word' for long... Incest is forbidden in Christianity - that's why I tend not to follow even Tolkien's last words if they don't make much sense and are not in accord with his beliefs.



well there was plenty of what we may call 'incest' in m-E. I mean Numenoreans and Hobbits were the worst, but Elves often married second cousins.




> And who knows what Tolkien would have decided if he had several years more to think it through...



hehe, You don't know how many times I've seen peopel say this when they cannot accept something as being 'canon' The fact is he didnt have more years to think it through and that was his last view.


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## Ithrynluin (May 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Inderjit S _
> *hehe, You don't know how many times I've seen peopel say this when they cannot accept something as being 'canon' The fact is he didnt have more years to think it through and that was his last view. *



Why must the last word on the matter automatically be regarded as 'canon'? Sorry, but I find the reasoning behind my acceptance of choice #1 (over choice #2) to be much stronger than your reasoning for accepting #2 just because it is the latest of the two.


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## Inderjit S (May 6, 2003)

> Why must the last word on the matter automatically be regarded as 'canon'



Because that was Tolkien's last point on the matter, therfore one assumes that the 'older' ideas have been revised. Tolkien re-wrote his stories for a reason.


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## Ithrynluin (May 6, 2003)

> Because that was Tolkien's last point on the matter, therfore one assumes that the 'older' ideas have been revised. Tolkien re-wrote his stories for a reason.



But of course. 

I do need to be reminded though...what was the reason he rewrote that one again?


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## Feanorian (May 6, 2003)

I wasn't saying that Galadriel was not a great elf, I guess the term 'just another high elf' did not give off the vive I was thinking....I meant it as she would be a great elf yes but she would not be esteemed in the way she still would have been if she had stayed in Valinor and not followed Feanor. 



> Are we discussing happenings after the War of Wrath still? If so, weren't all the scores of the Noldor cleared then?



From The Mirror of Galadriel: "I *pass the test*, she said. I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel".


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## Ithrynluin (May 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Feanorian _
> *I meant it as she would be a great elf yes but she would not be esteemed in the way she still would have been if she had stayed in Valinor and not followed Feanor.
> *



Why would she not be esteemed? If she had stayed in Valinor in the first place, she would have been much closer to being 'just another high elf' than after she adventured in Middle Earth and went through many trials and important decisions. She only disobeyed the Valar, and they had pardoned her. There would be no bitterness among the Teleri concerning her return, because she fought fiercely in defense of her mother's kin (the Elves of Alqualonde). She would be more than welcomed back and held in highest honours for her contribution for the well being of Middle Earth.


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## Feanorian (May 6, 2003)

> She would be more than welcomed back and held in highest honours for her contribution for the well being of Middle Earth.



Although she was still pardoned I do not know whether she returned to such high honour as you may think. Has Tolkien written anything on this? If not then it comes down to another I think you think debate.


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## Inderjit S (May 7, 2003)

> I do need to be reminded though...what was the reason he rewrote that one again?



Well I'm not Tolkien...I don't know WHY he changed things or even if the change was the one for the better, but the fact that he did change things means he was unhappy with the original idea/s. I think he wanted to give Galadriel a seperate depearture from the rest of the Noldor.


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## Ithrynluin (May 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Inderjit S _
> *Well I'm not Tolkien...I don't know WHY he changed things or even if the change was the one for the better, but the fact that he did change things means he was unhappy with the original idea/s. I think he wanted to give Galadriel a seperate depearture from the rest of the Noldor. *



Sure, that's all nice and good, and I wouldn't mind accepting his last view on a matter, if it were more developed and more complete. I really LIKE the idea of their separate departure, but their close kinship makes me discard this one and give my preference to the first one.


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## Ithrynluin (May 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Feanorian _
> *Although she was still pardoned I do not know whether she returned to such high honour as you may think. Has Tolkien written anything on this? If not then it comes down to another I think you think debate. *



It rarely comes down to something other than an 'I think - You think' debate in such cases. But I supported my opinion, whereas you did not. Care to elaborate?


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## Feanorian (May 8, 2003)

> It rarely comes down to something other than an 'I think - You think' debate in such cases



That is one of the great things about Tolkien's works he almost never leaves a question unanswered. However I did not imply that this was the case I was wondering if Tolkien had written anything about it. 

From The Unfinished Tales-The Istari, concerning Galadriel:
Galadriel, the greatest of the Eldar surviving in Middle-Earth, was potent mainly in wisdom and goodness, as a director or counsellor in the struggle, unconquerable in resistance(especially in mind and spirit) but *incapable* of punitive action. 

Now, I am saying first off that it was a mistake when I originally said she would be just another 'high elf' and I am aware of the fact that shes not, however that being said, I think we can see from the passage above that although she was a great elf in fact the greatest in Middle-Earth but I think she would have less honor then say Elrond or Cirdan(when/if he decided to go back). For her lack of action. As we can see with Feanor who was the greatest Elf of either M-E or Valinor being great does not bring you automatically into honor. She was one of the leading members of the rebellion of the Noldor and even though they were forgiven I think time would have passed in Valinor and the elves who stayed would have been learnt more from the Valar raising themselves in honor and power.


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## Ithrynluin (May 8, 2003)

I fail to see why that should substract from her greatness, or the premise that she would be held in reverence in Aman. None of the Elves of the 3rd Age were actively involved in important matters...they were withdrawing from ME slowly but surely.



> As we can see with Feanor who was the greatest Elf of either M-E or Valinor being great does not bring you automatically into honor.



Galadriel never tainted her greatness by despicable acts. For all the things she accomplished she deserves praise and reverence, and I'm sure she would get them in Aman.



> She was one of the leading members of the rebellion of the Noldor and even though they were forgiven I think time would have passed in Valinor and the elves who stayed would have been learnt more from the Valar raising themselves in honor and power.



Remember why the Noldor were eager to be gone in the first place? Because they had learned all that the Valar had to teach. Sitting idly by the Valar's side for ages does not make you greater than those who went into the wide lands to exercise their talents and bring about the downfall of evil.


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## Feanorian (May 8, 2003)

> Remember why the Noldor were eager to be gone in the first place? Because they had learned all that the Valar had to teach. Sitting idly by the Valar's side for ages does not make you greater than those who went into the wide lands to exercise their talents and bring about the downfall of evil



It is always possible to grow in your understanding of something to gain a deeper knowledge, even if you have 'learned' all of the information you can excell in your abilities. 



> Galadriel never tainted her greatness by despicable acts. For all the things she accomplished she deserves praise and reverence, and I'm sure she would get them in Aman.



I fail to see all of the 'great things' she did in M-E, yes I am aware she was the most powerful Elf in M-E. She was a ring-bearer, a great counselor, and a ruler of elves of course she would be given honor but praise and reverence?? I think most people would give her attention because she had returned and are happy for her return.


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## Arvedui (Apr 20, 2004)

This thread has been moved out of the Guild of Scholar's Hall, and will hopefully be filled with the thoughts of more members.


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## Thorondor_ (May 27, 2005)

I think the reason for her staying in M-E was her thirst for power. Tho she is admirable in many ways, I distrust this lady. My hidden feeling is that she somehow intended to create the conditions in which Frodo would give her the ring with which to rule the whole world. And I can't forgive her for fighting against the noldor in Alqualonde


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