# Does Frodo actually fail?



## Hadhafang (Jan 14, 2003)

SPOILER WARNING!

"The Realm of Sauron has ended!" said Gandalf. 'The Ringbearer has fulflled his quest.'
-LOTR: The Field of Cormallen

When Gandalf says this he is focused on the result and has no idea what transpired moments before:

Then Frodo spoke with a clear voice......'I have come,' he said. But I do not choose now to do what I came to do. I will not do this deed. The Ring is mine!'......
But Gollum, dancing like a mad thing, held aloft the ring.....'Precious!' Gollum cried...and with that, even as his eyes were lifted up to gloat on his prize, he stepped too far, toppled, wavered for a moment on the brink, and then with a shriek he fell. Out of the depths came his last wail _Precious_, and he was gone.
-LOTR: Mount Doom

I would argue that in spite of Frodo's final moment of weakness, he was still successful. Poor little Frodo was no match for the ring's power particularly in the realm of Sauron. However, since both Frodo and Sam (and earlier Bilbo) had spared and showed empathy for Gollum, they and all Middle Earth were rescued from evil. If Bilbo (or the many times Sam wanted to) killed Gollum, the tale would have most likely ended with Frodo being captured in his darkest hour by the Nazgul who in turn would have returned the ring to Sauron. Hence, it was the goodness of a few hobbits that saved Middle Earth. 

Mine is but one opinion.

What do you think? Did Frodo actually fail?


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## greypilgrim (Jan 14, 2003)

did Frodo fail at what? The task? My answer (opinion) is yes- he did fail, to do what it was he was entrusted to achieve in the end, by everybody. He turned his back on them in the end.
"But for him, Sam, I could not have destroyed the Ring. The quest would have been in vain., even at the bitter end."


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## Niniel (Jan 14, 2003)

Yes, he failed to destroy the Ring when he had to. But, since he had spared Gollum earlier, he had kept alive, without knowing it, the only possible person who could help him fulfill his quest (apart from all possible discussions about Sam). So he did not fail to achieve the goal that he had set out to do. so I agree with you Hadhafang.


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## Lantarion (Jan 14, 2003)

Yeah, but is an indirect fulfillment the same as a direct one? He did fail in the sense that he could no longer bear to fight the evil of the Ring; but with his goodness and pity in letting Sméagol live he did in a way fulfill it.
But when he showed mercy to Gollum he wasn't thinking "Ah yes, I will let the little creature live so that he can take the Ring from me and cast himself into the fire with it".  So in the end he failed at the Quest, but strengthened his own spirit by showing mercy, which was to him something natural and according to basic morals.


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## BlackCaptain (Jan 14, 2003)

He fufilled his quest, but not his dutey. The quest was from the Shire to Mt. Doom. The dutey was to destroy the ring, and he failed. "The ring-bearer has fuffiled his *quest* ." Not his dutey.


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## greypilgrim (Jan 14, 2003)

He failed the task but not the duty. But he did fail the duty. Frodo did not do what he set out to do. He did the exact opposite. 
With your reckoning, then Sam is as much responsible, and Aragorn, Bilbo, Gandalf, and everyone that "let Gollum live". That is nonsense. 


The Ring would let no-one destroy it willingly.


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## Bib (Jan 14, 2003)

As for me, I don't think you should seperate quest and duty. Is a quest really fulfilled when you've not done at the end that what you went on your quest for? 

Hence, Frodo failed his quest/duty. 

For the rest of the gang i'd like tot think that only Gandalf had any idea that Gollum had still an important role to play in the whole thing. The others just had pity with him.


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## Maedhros (Jan 14, 2003)

From the _Letters of JRRT: # 246_


> Frodo indeed 'failed' as a hero, as conceived by simple minds: he did not endure to the end; he gave in, ratted. I do not say 'simple minds' with contempt: they often see with clarity the simple truth and the absolute ideal to which effort must be directed, even if it is unattainable. Their weakness, however, is twofold. They do not perceive the complexity of any given situation in Time, in which an absolute ideal is enmeshed. They tend to forget that strange element in the World that we call Pity or Mercy, which is also an absolute requirement in moral judgement (since it is present in the Divine nature). In its highest exercise it belongs to God. For finite judges of imperfect knowledge it must lead to the use of two different scales of 'morality'. To ourselves we must present the absolute ideal without compromise, for we do not know our own limits of natural strength (grace), and if we do not aim at the highest we shall certainly fall short of the utmost that we could achieve. To others, in any case of which we know enough to make a judgement, we must apply a scale tempered by 'mercy': that is, since we can with good will do this without the bias inevitable in judgements of ourselves, we must estimate the limits of another's strength and weigh this against the force of particular circumstances.
> I do not think that Frodo's was a moral failure. At the last moment the pressure of the Ring would reach its maximum – impossible, I should have said, for any one to resist, certainly after long possession, months of increasing torment, and when starved and exhausted. Frodo had done what he could and spent himself completely (as an instrument of Providence) and had produced a situation in which the object of his quest could be achieved. His humility (with which he began) and his sufferings were justly rewarded by the highest honour; and his exercise of patience and mercy towards Gollum gained him Mercy: his failure was redressed.


He succeded in failing, but there was no way that Frodo himself could have destroyed the Ring. Can someone failed because they couldn't do the imposible? No.


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## greypilgrim (Jan 14, 2003)

Wish I had that kind of luck!


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## BluestEye (Jan 14, 2003)

*One thing...*

You forget is that Frodo was only supposed to be the Ring Bearer and not the Ring Thrower to the Fires of Mount Doom...
So being the Ring Bearer he succeeded, because he actualy brought the Ring to Mount Doom...
That Gollum was the one who destroyed it - well, good for him, no?

BluestEYe


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## Bib (Jan 15, 2003)

Well, every hero does need his share of luck. 

But... if Frodo was only to be rig-bearer, who should've been ring-thrower according to the council of Elrond? 

Destroying the ring in the end was the whole point of bearing the ring to the mountain. If Frodo was only meant to do the bearing, the whole quest would've been pointless. I can't imagine that the council had anyone else but Frodo in mind for destroying the ring.


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## Ol'gaffer (Jan 15, 2003)

well, you could say that he failed. But they did destroy the ring?
so whats all the hooha? but frodo is such a whining weenie anyway that we should just give all credit to sam about the quest.


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## Lantarion (Jan 15, 2003)

Yes, gaffer, they did destroy the Ring; but Frodo didn't. And it was after all his quest (and Bluest, although he is called the Ring-*bearer*, it was also his duty to destroy the Ring, as well as carry it around), and as he did not fulfill it to the end, he failed it. That's the definition of failing.


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## GoldenWood (Jan 15, 2003)

I wonder what would have happened if Gollum was not there in the picture. Do you think that Sam would have done something when Frodo resisted throwing the ring? Would Sam served his master and kept quiet or would he have served the quest?


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## Bib (Jan 15, 2003)

I don't think Sam could've done something. If I remember well Frodo put on the Ring instead of throwing it in the fire and thus would've become invisible. 

Why Gollum could find Frodo I can't remember. I believe it was because of a sort of attraction to the ring.


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## klugiglugus (Jan 15, 2003)

Frodo did fail yet he destroyed the ring or as I like to think. The ring commited suicide.


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## greypilgrim (Jan 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GoldenWood _
> *I wonder what would have happened if Gollum was not there in the picture. Do you think that Sam would have done something when Frodo resisted throwing the ring? Would Sam served his master and kept quiet or would he have served the quest? *



"Mr. Frodo? Mr. Frodo?! Oh gosh, he's gone and done it now! And me here alone in the Crack of Doom and all! Oh, what my gaffer would say!"


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## GoldenWood (Jan 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by klugiglugus _
> *Frodo did fail yet he destroyed the ring or as I like to think. The ring commited suicide. *



That's very funny  That means the Ring is the hero!!


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## Hadhafang (Jan 15, 2003)

The ring was doing the exact opposite of suicide. It overwhelmed Frodo so that it could return to the hand of its master. 

'A Ring of Power looks after itself..........There was more than one power at work, Frodo. The Ring was trying to get back to its master.'
-Gandalf, FOTR-The Shadow of the Past.

This qoute from Gandalf shows that the ring did indeed have a will of its own. When realizing its doom was so close at hand in Sammath Naur, it must have used all of its power to charm Frodo into not destroying it. Frodo being a common hobbit had no chance against a power so great.

Furthermore, if Gollum was not spared though the pity of Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, or the elves, then, the Nazgul would have spotted Frodo in Sammath Naur. They would have retrieved the ring and that would have been pretty much the end of the world.

It was Frodo's 'intention' to destroy the ring. It was not an act of Frodo's will that he put the ring on. Rather, it was an act of the ring's will. The ring's 'will' was one of the weapons of the enemy. Simply because this weapon was too powerful for Frodo does not mean he should be judged as a failure. Similarly, we do not call soldiers who die in the line of combat, fighting for our respective countries failures. They are usually called heroes.


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## BluestEye (Jan 15, 2003)

But remember that Gandalf said that he sensed that Gollum had a part to play in this History.... Maybe he never thought of Frodo as the Ring-Thrower anyway. Maybe he was counting on Gollum at the first place....

Just an idea 
BluestEye


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## klugiglugus (Jan 16, 2003)

The ring was big enough to control all of middle earth then it was big enough to destroy the most evil thing in it I.E itself! Like Hitler with germany and nobody would call him a hero...


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## Hadhafang (Jan 16, 2003)

> The ring was big enough to control all of middle earth then it was big enough to destroy the most evil thing in it I.E itself! Like Hitler with germany and nobody would call him a hero...



I don't know that I agree with this analogy. 

Hitler had already been defeated and killed himself to avoid capture by the Russian forces. I don't believe that he was being a good guy by ridding the world of his presence. This is indeed what was suggested in the above quote, that the ring killed itself as an act of benevolence. However, the Ring of Power was actually trying to save itself. It made one last desperate attempt at being reclaimed by the Nazgul on Sammath Naur for it feared that its doom was so close.

You are right that not all soldiers are heros. I was referring to people who died for a just cause such as those who fought to bring down evil dictators...like Hitler.


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## greypilgrim (Jan 16, 2003)

So the Task was IMPOSSIBLE from the beginning! Gandalf may have figured that, hence sparing Gollums life, as Gollum was "posessed" by the Ring, doomed to follow him. Did Gandalf think Frodo couldn't possibly have succeded?


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## lossenandunewen (Jan 16, 2003)

frodo did not fail his task. he was supposed to take it to mount doom where it could be destroyed.. was it ever said that he himself had to destroy it?


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## greypilgrim (Jan 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by lossenandunewen _
> *.. was it ever said that he himself had to destroy it? *


Why don't you look for that answer in the book and post it on my thread: _Quotable Quotes_?


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## klugiglugus (Jan 17, 2003)

Maybe this was all just a plot point that was ment to be complex but is in precticality is really bad and Tolkein just left it in because he could not think up any thing better?

Or maybe Gollum being the strongest result of the rings corruption had to be taken with the ring in the quest?

Any way the ring was destroyed and that is that.


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## Hadhafang (Jan 17, 2003)

I personally believe that Tolkien was trying to highlight the theme 'through forgiveness is redemption'. He had every intention of outlining this theme. All things must be considered. People are more than just their darkest moment in life. Frodo was not a failure for not being able to resists the rings power. 

Indeed Frodo was redeemed in his darkest hour. His mercy and forgiveness towards Gollum had payed off. Since Frodo was not able to destroy the ring, Gollum's greed took care of it for them. Had Frodo not given Gollum a chance, (as I have stated before) he would have been caught by the power of the enemy.

Gollum had two choices. He could either have claimed the ring for himself or he could have done the right thing and destroyed it. He chose the former. Under no circumstances would gollum have gotten off of the mountain alive. The Nazgul would have captured him as well. Lucckily for ME, his excitement over recovering such an evil thing was his downfall.


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## 33Peregrin (Jan 18, 2003)

I do not think Frodo failed. Maybe I don't want to admitit or something, but I try to find reasons of why not. Frodo is only a halfling. The best one in the Shire (so think Gandalf and Bilbo). No one standing on the edge of the cracks of Doom could destroy the Ring. No one. Some would be like Gollum and men. Too easily corrupted. Some would be too powerful, like Gandalf and Elrond. Frodo, a hobbit is not too easily corrupted. He by his small self (and Samwise) resisted enough temptation to bring the Ring to Mordor. He is not too wise and powerful. (though still very wise). He was the only one to go. I don't think even Gandalf expected him to do this task. Just to be the right one to bring it to Mordor, having enough pity and wisdom and much courage. He resisted the Ring, pitied poor Smeagol and , well, he has got wisdom. How could he ever destroy the Ring, so near to the Great Eye when he coulnd't throuw the Ring into his small fire when the ring had hardly got any hold on him yet? I think Hobbits somehow where the only ones to do this task, and Frodo was the One Hobbit. The Ringbearer.


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## lossenandunewen (Jan 19, 2003)

ok i found the quotes that prove that frodo's task wasn't actually to throw the ring in, it was to just get the ring there.

Pg. 350 - Council of Elrond, FotR



> "None here can do so," said Elrond gravely. "At least none can fortell what will come to pass, if we take this road that we must take. The westward road seems easiest. Therefore it must be shunned. It will be watched. Too often the Elves have fled that way. Now at this last we must take a hard road, a road unforseen. There lies our hope, if hope it be. To walk into peril - to Mordor. We must send the ring to the fire"



Basically Elrond says "Dude, the ring must get to the fire."

pg. 361- Ring Goes South, FotR



> "The time has come," he said. "If the ring is to set out, it must go soon. But those who go with it must not count on their errand being aided by war or force. They must pass into the domain of the enemy far from aid. Do you still hold to your word Frodo, that you will be the ring-bearer?"



Elrond now says "Frodo, you promise to bear the ring?" (Bear the ring, not destroy the ring)

and last but not least --

pg. 368 - Ring Goes South, FotR



> "The ring-bearer is setting out on the Quest of Mount Doom. On him alone is any charge laid: neither to cast away the ring, nor to deliver it to any servent of the enemy nore indeed to let any handle it, save the members of the company and council and only then in gravest need."



Elrond says - Frodo, you can't give the ring to anyone save those in the fellowship. 

that basically says itself that frodo doesn't have to throw it into the fire, anyone in the company may do so. so frodo did not fail.


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## 33Peregrin (Jan 19, 2003)

Yeah... all of those qoutes kind of prove it.... That's what i was thinking. I'm reading The Book for the Fourth time and I just happened to read the council of Elrond this morning. I also read the part where pippin says they need someone of intelligence. Whenever I read that part I always think "It's great how he actually says that in the Book". Oops... Not to get off topic. Frodo does not fail. Just what I said earlier...


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