# Is Morgorth ME version of Satan?



## WizardKing (Dec 23, 2002)

is morgorth the devil?


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## Finduilas (Dec 23, 2002)

> But when the Ainur had beheld this habitation in a vision and had seen the Children of Iluvatar arise therein, then many of the most mighty among them bent all their thought and their desire towards that place.And of these Melkor was the chief ,even as he was in the beginning the greatest of the Ainur who took part in the Music.



He wasn't the devil he only had hiden more evil and desire for revenge in his heart than the other Ainur and this later became stronger that he couldn't resist and fell under evil's power.Evil has great influance that's for sure and if somebody is born to do or be something he can't change it.


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## Gil-Galad (Dec 23, 2002)

Of course he is not the devil litereally,but he could be compared as a Me version of Satan.I think so having in mind all elements in Tolkien's works that have similarity with religion and especially Catholic religion.


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## Finduilas (Dec 23, 2002)

> Of course he is not the devil litereally,but he could be compared as a Me version of Satan.I think so having in mind all elements in Tolkien's works that have similarity with religion and especially Catholic religion.



Yes,but I meant that the Devil was born evil and he didn't go through any transformations while Melkor could have been good in the beginning and later influanced by the desire he turned in to Morgoth.


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## Gil-Galad (Dec 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Finduilas _
> *Yes,but I meant that the Devil was born evil and he didn't go through any transformations while Melkor could have been good in the beginning and later influanced by the desire he turned in to Morgoth. *


The Devil was not BORN!If you want some Theology lessons call me tomorrow to explain to you these things.


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## Popqueen62 (Dec 23, 2002)

could see it. He started out not too bad, cuz u know that satan was once an angel named Lucifer. Then he was banished just like Melkor, and he turned all evil and out to get everyone. And to me, Iluvatar kind of resembles god


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## Gil-Galad (Dec 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Popqueen62 _
> *could see it. He started out not too bad, cuz u know that satan was once an angel named Lucifer. Then he was banished just like Melkor, and he turned all evil and out to get everyone. And to me, Iluvatar kind of resembles god *


As I said we have talke much about similarities between religion and Tolkien's works.But then if Eru represents God,Manwe represents who?


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## Maeglin (Dec 23, 2002)

Jesus maybe, because in essence Manwe is Illuvatar/Eru, he knows all of his thoughts, and Jesus was in essence God, he knew all of his thoughts, just a thought. 

And I'm sorry I've missed all of these discussions about it all, but the threads are just wayyy too long to read, I always find them too late.

Oh and yes you could say Melkor is Satan, an Ainur is just like an angel, so they were both fallen angels if you ask me.


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## Gil-Galad (Dec 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Glorfindel1187 _
> *Jesus maybe, because in essence Manwe is Illuvatar/Eru, he knows all of his thoughts, and Jesus was in essence God, he knew all of his thoughts, just a thought.
> *


But Jesus dies and goes out of our world ,while Manwe stays at his throne..........ruling the world..


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## Maeglin (Dec 23, 2002)

Well yes.... but still, that is the closest person he resembles. Ohhh darn, I just had something else in my head to write, but I forgot it! Hmm if I think of it I'll add it to this later.


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## LoreMaster (Dec 24, 2002)

The book _Tolkien: Man and Myth_ identified Morgoth with Satan. The author cited the fact that the name Satan means enemy, just as Morgoth also means enemy(I can't recall if he gave its specific meaning). He also pointed out how Morgoth fell from his former status by turning to evil and the correlation between that fall and Lucifer's fall.
I believe that Eru is to be identified with the God of the Bible. Tolkien's world is our world in the distant past, and in a letter quote I read he placed(at least I assume this is what he was writing about, though I can't recall if the quote specified at all) at least some of his mythology somewhere between the Fall and redemption of man. Since Tolkien was Catholic, I think he was referring to the Fall and redemption described in the Bible, which would place his mythology in the context of biblical history. In another letter quote Tolkien identified Eru as God, and, being Catholic, he would surely identify God as the God of the Bible(The quotes I used can be found in the discussion "Finding God in the Lord of the Rings" in the LOTR section of the forum).
I would point out that if one accepts that Eru is Jehovah, then it isn't too hard to believe that Morgoth is Satan.


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## Gil-Galad (Dec 27, 2002)

Yeah,everything is just a question of parallelism between Tolkien's world and The Bible.


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## LoreMaster (Dec 27, 2002)

I would view Manwe as an angel rather than Jesus Himself. Finrod prophesied that Iluvatar would come into His creation and heal it from the inside, and I believe this prophecy refers to the Incarnation. Iluvatar then is Jesus as well.


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## Eliot (Dec 27, 2002)

I think that Tolkien might have viewed Manwe as Michael the Archangel from the Bible. 

Oh, and if anybody thinks that Satan was born evil, well, for ONE he wasn't born, and TWO, he wasn't created to be evil. He was a top angel under God's command. He eventually rebelled against God's power (He wanted to be equal in power with God, God couldn't allow that), and was banished from Heaven.

He'll eventually be sent to Hell after the Rapture, and will stay there for eternity.


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## Gil-Galad (Dec 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Eliot _
> *Oh, and if anybody thinks that Satan was born evil, well, for ONE he wasn't born, and TWO, he wasn't created to be evil. He was a top angel under God's command. He eventually rebelled against God's power (He wanted to be equal in power with God, God couldn't allow that), and was banished from Heaven.
> 
> . *


Isn't this similar to Ilëvatar and Melkor's story?


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## Eliot (Dec 27, 2002)

You don't understand.  

I was only correcting what other people said.


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