# Tolkien and Lucas



## RangerStryder (Feb 21, 2009)

How much was George Lucas influenced by J.R.R. Tolkien?

What similarities or what did Lucas brought to his movie franchise that he got from Tolkien?

In your opinion (and asking this in a Tolkien forum is too much) who is a better fantasy-story-teller?


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## HLGStrider (Feb 21, 2009)

I am a firm believer in the fact that George Lucas owes the majority of his success with the first three movies to Lawrence Kasdan. http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001410/

Though I don't think Kasdan was involved with Star Wars: A New Hope (to my knowledge) he was a screen writer on the other two original films which are so undeniably better than the later three. Lucas is not a writer. His dialogue within Star Wars: Attack of the Clones is proof of this. He has great ideas and he knows how to make a universe look really awesome, but as a screen writer he is one of the easiest people to mock. 

I wouldn't say that Lucas borrowed/stole anything from Star Wars. Star Wars is archetypal fiction and uses a lot of things that are classic in epic fantasy, the naive farm boy thrust into a situation beyond his control by the fate of a father and a cry for help from a beautiful woman; the dashing rogue with the heart of gold who wants to be in it for self but keeps getting pulled in until he becomes a fighter for the cause (oh my gosh, Han, I love you); the division of dark and light; the elderly mentor; the face off. . .

All these things can be found over and over again in fiction.


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## Mike (Feb 21, 2009)

> How much was George Lucas influenced by J.R.R. Tolkien?



Watch _Willow_ to find out.


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## Firawyn (Feb 22, 2009)

HLGStrider said:


> I wouldn't say that Lucas borrowed/stole anything from Star Wars. Star Wars is archetypal fiction and uses a lot of things that are classic in epic fantasy, the naive farm boy thrust into a situation beyond his control by the fate of a father and a cry for help from a beautiful woman; the dashing rogue with the heart of gold who wants to be in it for self but keeps getting pulled in until he becomes a fighter for the cause (oh my gosh, Han, I love you); the division of dark and light; the elderly mentor; the face off. . .
> 
> All these things can be found over and over again in fiction.




Hehe, _nice!_ 


However, in my opinion, I think that like any budding artist of today, people are going to be influenced by previous works of their genre of choice. Tolkien was influenced by his background in medieval historical literature, and likewise, I think that Lucus was influenced by Tolkien and his contemporaries.

By how much...who can say?


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## Bucky (May 21, 2009)

His dialogue within Star Wars: Attack of the Clones is proof of this. 

*You mean you didn't care for the love scenes?

"I wish I could just wish away my feelings."

and: "If you are suffering as much as I am, please tell me."

Didn't do it for you? 


Anyhow, on topic, I hear folks say all the time that Obi-Wan Kenobi is Gandalf - not sure I buy that, because then: Gandalf is Merlin, ya know?

Lucas certainly borrows from many things, especially in the later Trilogy: His own OT, Forbidden Planet and Ben Hur just to name a few obvious ones I've caught.*


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## HLGStrider (May 21, 2009)

Obi-Wan and Gandalf have similarities, they are both considered within nearby, isolated farming communities to be "crazy old men" when they in truth hold a great deal of power. They are both mentors in that it is they who managed to push a member of these isolated community out of his comfort zone into the outside world. Merlin is similar, though depending on the version you go with, he is either in it to cause trouble or in it because he has a kind heart . . . etc. I grew up with the Sword in the Stone and "Once and Future King" Merlin, but in some versions Merlin seems to cause more trouble than he is worth. I suppose the same could be said for Gandalf and Obi Wan if they are seen through the eyes of the Hobbit's or Luke's ill-fated uncle. Meddling old men, crazy wizard, etc.


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## Firawyn (May 21, 2009)

Bear in mind that even in the world of fiction, people can share alot of common personality traits, and even physical attributes. It's a face of life that makes Gandalf, Obi-wan, and Merlin all great characters!


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## HLGStrider (May 22, 2009)

I wouldn't exactly call Merlin a fleshed out character any more than I would call Hercules or Freya a fleshed out character. They are "super-personalities" rather than "personalities."


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## Illuin (May 24, 2009)

> Originally posted by *HLGStrider*
> I wouldn't say that *Lucas* borrowed/stole anything *from Star Wars*.


 


















Anyway, you folks are far nicer people than I am. I personally think Lucas and Rowling are flat out Tolkien kleptos. Star Wars might have existed without him, but it probably would have ended up being more like an unintentional _Spaceballs_ without Tolkien's influence.


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## Firawyn (May 26, 2009)

That's the beauty of Tolkien, Illuin. He was so amazing that everyone has to build off of him.

Look at Shakespeare, for example. Do you know how many books and movies have been influenced by him?


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## Bucky (May 29, 2009)

That's the beauty of Tolkien, Illuin. He was so amazing that everyone has to build off of him.

*More like 'in-depth' is the right term....

He covers so much that there's nothing left that wasn't done by him & therefore it looks like a rip-off of his work.
I recall reading the 'Sword of Shannara' when it came out with it's skullbearers (Nazgul) & whatnot & thinking EVERYTHING was Tolkien inspired and poorly at that.
Harry potter has it's own Nazgul of course (what are they called? Demented or something?)

But, then again, Tolkien's work has it's insapiration too: Beowuf, Oedopus (Turin), etc....*


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## HLGStrider (May 29, 2009)

I do want to say that it is very hard after having read Tolkien not to copy the Nazgul in some way or another because there are few things as frightening as a black cape coming at you with god knows what underneath. . . Hence you get the Razaac from Eragon (who turn out to be insects, I think), those dudes in the Robert Jordan series who are faceless, (I want to say "Shades" but it has been forever since I read that book), the Dementors . . . 

Humans are terrified by the unknown and our own imagination is much better than a vivid description often times. I remember when I asked a friend in high school to look over a book I had been writing and he told me I was describing too much and explaining too much. 

"Readers like to be able to figure somethings out on their own," he said. 

At the time I didn't really get that at the time, but I had a major crush on him so I had to listen . . . 

Anyway, in cinema what you don't see is often more frightening than what we do, which is why I think CGI, while good and all, is going to eventually turn off our imaginations just a little bit as it allows more and more things to happen before our faces that before we could only see in our minds.


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## Firawyn (May 29, 2009)

HLGStrider said:


> "Readers like to be able to figure somethings out on their own," he said.



Very true. But on the other hand, I think it depends on the reader. Those of us who have read Tolkien and other large collections have gotten used to, and perhaps even expect, everything to be explained by the end. 

As a writer, I think the trick is to not explain things until you've given the reader a fair chance at figuring things out for themselves. I believe the literary term is "foreshadowing".


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## Illuin (May 30, 2009)

> Originally posted by *HLGStrider*
> _I do want to say that it is very hard after having read Tolkien not to copy the Nazgul in some way or another because there are few things as frightening as a black cape coming at you with god knows what underneath._


 
That's true. I guess there's a little _*"Ghost of Christmas Yet To Come"*_ in everyone, including Tolkien .


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## Firawyn (May 31, 2009)

Illuin did you see that new Mathew McConaughey movie? "Ghosts of Girlfriends Past"? Cause it's no where near Christmas.  Just trying to follow your very odd thought process!


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## Illuin (May 31, 2009)

> Originally posted by *Firawyn*
> _Illuin did you see that new Mathew McConaughey movie? "Ghosts of Girlfriends Past"? Cause it's no where near Christmas.  Just trying to follow your very odd thought process! _


 
Scrooge Fir. 1951, with Alastair Sim (there is NO other version ). You remember Scrooge, hangin' with the Witch King?






Don't you remember? (_Jim Spock, you used to call me Jim....don't you remember_ ).


Strider is going to get mad at me for posting the colorized version of the pic .


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## Firawyn (May 31, 2009)

My favorite edition of "A Christmas Carol" was the one with Patrick Stewart as Scrooge. Yes, Illuin, I know the classics, don't nag. 

See? See?


But WHY have we begun to talk about A Christmas Carol. Aside from the Witch King/Ghosts of Christmas Yet to Come contrast? Keep on topic!


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## HLGStrider (May 31, 2009)

MY favorite version of the Christmas Carol starred Jim Henson's Muppets, so I'm not all that much of a purist as far as the classics go.
Though I dislike most things by Dickens, Gonzo certainly helps. 
I think Illuin was simply trying to point out to me that Tolkien wasn't the first to use the "scary dude in the cape" device. . . and to further prove my point of "it's better not to know what is under the cape at times," has anyone besides me wasted the time it takes to watch that Bill Murray flick "Scrooged?" Where they actually open the cape and have some ill-thought-out-ghost-busterish demons underneath it? See, told you so. Better not to do that.
Though I like Ghostbusters in spite of the dated effects. "I can't work in the private sector! They expect results!"


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## Illuin (May 31, 2009)

> Originally posted by *HLGStrider*
> 
> _I think Illuin was simply trying to point out to me that Tolkien wasn't the first to use the "scary dude in the cape" device_


 
Yes, I was.


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## Firawyn (May 31, 2009)

Grim Reaper, Illuin?


Elgee....MUPPETS?! Lmao! I just KNEW you were a Muppets girl! Not at ALL surprised.


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## Illuin (Jun 1, 2009)

> Originally posted by *HLGStrider*
> _has anyone besides me wasted the time it takes to watch that Bill Murray flick "Scrooged?"_


 
*"I can't get the antlers glued to this little mouse. We tried Crazy Glue, but it don't work."*

*"Did you try staples?"* 

BTW, speaking of The Muppets, I still have my _Rowlf the Dog_ stuffed animal from 1979 sitting on the piano bench (seriously) . He was one of my musical demigods growing up.


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## Bucky (Jun 4, 2009)

reat point about the mysterious hooded creatures proliferating throughout fantasy......

Even Lucas has his: The Jawas.


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## Noldor_returned (Jun 7, 2009)

Can I make an observation, and it's something I've discussed with Majimaune.

Star Wars = Germany from 1918-1945

1918-1933: democratic government, faced a few problems. In 1933, Hitler (Palpatine) took over after being elected in and managed to consolidate power by changing the Constitution (also done in Star Wars). Technically, both Hitler and Palpatine followed the laws of their own situations to attain complete power.

1933-1939: Nazi Power in command, preparing for war and building up military force (Clones). In its earlier days the Nazi Party also had forces known as _stormtroopers_

1939-45: World War Two. Almost every nation in the world was affected, and the same happened in Star Wars Ep 4-6. The destruction of Alderaan becomes the takeover of France, and the different battlegrounds typify other battles, such as Tatooine (desert) is African desert, Hoth is European winters. Endor is Asian jungles, especially Papua New Guinea (Ewoks = Fuzzy Wuzzy Angels), while Bespin becomes Singapore.

There are countless other similarities, such as a few characters: Luke is Churchill, "leader of Allied forces". Oh wait, _Allied_ forces, Rebel _Alliance_?

Han Solo is MacArthur, a "General". Leia becomes Eleanor Roosevelt. Obi-Wan is King George, fighting in the battles of World War One (Battle for Naboo) and also holding high position in World War Two, although Churchill/Luke was a greater public figure. Vader is Himmler and other German politicians, leader of the SS.

If you look further there is more, for instance The New Jedi Order could be seen as the UN, while democracy returned to Germany after WWII, as it did with the fall of the Empire. Also, the persecution of Jews correlates to Palpatine's persecution of non-human sentients.

Someone is probably wondering about Russia. Mon Mothma anyone, and also Bail Organa? Both Senators who were in league with the Empire/Germany, but when Germany attacks, breaking the pact of peace between the nations, Stalin joins the Allies. So when Palpatine goes after them, they leave and join the Allies, becoming key figures.

To answer the original question, I don't think Lucas was influenced by Tolkien much at all, based on the evidence here. If anyone wants to pick holes in this theory, I'm willing to explain further


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## HLGStrider (Jun 7, 2009)

I agree, partially because I had always thought the Imperial Officer's uniforms were made to look like Nazi uniforms a little bit, and the whole "Stormtrooper" thing is a bit obvious.

The timeline you gave is interesting, but I think it only holds up until the 1939 stage. I don't see enough paralells between the Rebel Alliance and the Allied Forces, and while the character's you listed may have played similar roles, the personalities are nothing alike. I think you should've stopped while you were ahead with you comparison before trying to make Luke Churchill.


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## Illuin (Jun 7, 2009)

Wasn't Japan in there somewhere? Were the big nukers in Hiroshima and Nagasaki symbolic of Death Star #1 & Death Star #2? I do admit that Grand Moff Tarkin and crew did resemble the SS quite a bit, but it's hard to picture Vader representing Heinrich Himmler. I see that weirdo sociopath who got choked by Vader being more like Himmler. 

_"Don't try to frighten us with your sorcerous ways, Lord Vader. Your sad devotion to that ancient religion has not helped you conjure up the stolen data tapes, or given you clairvoyance enough to find the rebels' hidden fortress..._

_I find your lack of faith disturbing."_ 

Himmler was chastised occasionally by Hitler and Martin Bormann for his bizarre and careless behavior. 

Anyway, yes... Lucas ripped Tolkien off big time . It was Lord of The Rings in space. Perfect disguise. I would have done it .


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## Bucky (Jun 7, 2009)

I certainly agree with HGLStrider here....

The Nazi Gremany/Empire, Palps/Hitler takeover & Stormtrooper analogies are right on, but equating exact battles, especially in the Pacific to battles in WWII is a bit much I think. 

The battles had to take place on some type of terrain didn't they? 

And the Luke/Churchill, Han/McArthur, Leah/Elanor Roosevelt comparisons just don't hold up IMHO.

McArthur? Why not Patton? 
Seems to fit more......


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## Noldor_returned (Jun 9, 2009)

Bucky said:


> I certainly agree with HGLStrider here....
> 
> The Nazi Gremany/Empire, Palps/Hitler takeover & Stormtrooper analogies are right on, but equating exact battles, especially in the Pacific to battles in WWII is a bit much I think.
> 
> ...


 
Yeah, I'm not an expert on WW2 but my point is that for the majority of Star Wars it is allegorical of Nazi Germany. My adaptations may sometimes be loose, but you get the gist. My argument was that Lucas was influenced by German history more than Tolkien.

What parallels do you draw from Tolkien? Plot?

_Frodo and Sam went to Mordor to destroy the ring, vanquishing Sauron, who wanted to enslave the land._

Star Wars is more: _The Empire takes control of the Galaxy and is overthrown._

The only similarity I see so far is that an antagonist exists (Empire/Sauron), but they are not very similar. One is trying to capture the land, another already has. Maybe you want to look at characters?


Frodo: a small time man, just coming of age, parents are dead and guardian leaves him; Luke: a small time farmer, just coming of age, parents are "dead", guardians killed. I'm sorry, but if you're going to make that the grounds for "Lucas copied Tolkien" why not say Rowling did with Harry Potter (just coming of age parents dead etc)? Those characters are almost always found, you know why? They're called archetypal heroes, facing adversity at a young age (death of parents etc) and are given something to fight for/against. Superheroes are the same, such as Batman (parents killed by villain), Spiderman (parents dead, aunt/uncle killed)
Sam: I have no idea who this could be in Star Wars
Gandalf is Obi-Wan? Not really...one died and stayed dead, one "died" and came back. Gandalf is more like Vader, but on the "good" side
Aragorn: Han Solo? Arwen = Leia? These are the most plausible, but are still not solid theories. An orphan makes his way through hardship and joins a small group who seeks to end evil, sure, and marries the pretty girl. Not really amazing, because I think every other story has that. A hero (protagonist) manages to win the heart of the fair maiden by eradicating the dark forces. Sleeping Beauty was woken by Prince Charming after he beat the wicked witch and saved the land.
I maintain that Lucas had a lot of influences but Tolkien was not a prominent one. Shakespeare probably was, but Tolkien not as much. Nazi Germany was more so.


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## HLGStrider (Jun 9, 2009)

That was sort of the point I was making earlier, that what Lucas seems to copy is generally character and plot points that are prevalent in literature since King Arthur . . . or before in the case of a lot of myths. As I said, Merlin/Gandalf/Obi-Wan all share some obvious traits. I think Lucas was attempting to get a little bit deep and meaningful with the fall of democracy thing in SWIII which does lead to some interesting WWII paralels. 

But anyway, be Han Solo Aragorn or Patton or Robin Hood, there are a lot of interesting paralells where influence could be argued.


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## Noldor_returned (Jun 11, 2009)

So maybe a better purpose for this thread would be in discussing what influences _are _present in Star Wars, or what Tolkien did have an influence on.

*mutters something about Eragon being influenced by Star Wars and Tolkien*

One thing that Tolkien had an impact on was the fantasy genre. Almost every analysis of fantasy comes back to Lord of the Rings as the cannon, most fantastical, more so than Beowulf because of its mythopoeia (creation of an alternative world). Look at a lot of fantasy texts then, and think about how many take place in a new world. His legacy was bigger than almost any other author. Sure, other people have done a lot too, but not for a single genre, and I think that's why people want to connect Lucas to Tolkien. Both had an enormous impact on sci-fi and fantasy respectively.


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## baragund (Jun 12, 2009)

Hmmm... I always figured that Star Wars was no more than an updated and expanded version of the Flash Gordon stories. I think any similiarities between what Lucas created and what Tolkien created are more incidental than anything else.

Great topic, though! I enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts on this. It was one of those things that nevered occured to me until Ranger Stryder brought it up.


btw, The gold standard of the "Christmas Carol" movies is, without a doubt, 100% absolutely, the Allastair Sim version... IN BLACK AND WHITE!!!


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## Bucky (Jun 12, 2009)

baragund said:


> ... IN BLACK AND WHITE!!!



*Aside from fantasy and Sci fi or beautiful local movies, color is inferior in film.

Black & white can be used so much more subtly yet effectively for mood & to convey emotions, etc...... *


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