# Other elves



## ¤-Elessar-¤ (Jun 26, 2002)

Hmm... just a thought. There were two groups of elves, the Eldar and the Avari. Of the eldar, all but Maglor are known to be slain or have left for the Undying Lands. Of the Avari, I beleive the first settlement was Lindon of Beleriand, and then there was Greenwood and Lothlorien. But what of the others, surely there must be more? What do you think happened to them?


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## Snaga (Jun 26, 2002)

The Avari refers to elves who refused the journey to Valinor. But many of the Teleri started the journey, but did not complete it. These elves are counted amongst the Eldar, not the Avari. Not all of them are said to have gone west, or to have been slain. Specifically Lindon was eldarin, being comprised primarily of Sindarin elves, led by Cirdan, with probably some Nandorin elves from Ossiriand, and maybe some of the Noldor too possibly.

Doesnt answer your question tho'!


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## HelplessModAddi (Jun 27, 2002)

I think I read a theory somewhere that some Avari settled at the base of the Misty Mountains near Anduin and eventually became Hobbits (by mingling with Men, specifically the ancestors of the Rohirrim).


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## Gil-Galad (Jun 27, 2002)

Smeagol,that's very interesting place especially the maps..


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## Hirila (Jul 13, 2002)

Well, in fact you will learn that the Avari refused the journey away from Cuivienen, where the elves awoke. The others are the Eldar. Then there are the Calaquendi, those who have seen the light of the two trees in Valinor and the Moriquendi who haven't seen it, including the Avari and the Sindar, the Grey-Elves who refused setting sail from Beleriand and there are others who refused to cross the Misty Mountains on the Great Journey. (BTW, Legolas is one of this last group. His folk has always lived in Greenwood / Mirkwood)


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## Ithrynluin (Jul 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by HelplessModAddi _
> *I think I read a theory somewhere that some Avari settled at the base of the Misty Mountains near Anduin and eventually became Hobbits (by mingling with Men, specifically the ancestors of the Rohirrim). *



I find this very hard to believe.Elves becoming hobbits? Naaahhh.


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## Rúmil (Jul 14, 2002)

All the reamining High-Elves departed at the end of the Third Age (with the possible exception of Maglor)


> In that time the Noldor walked still in the Hither Lands, mightiest and fairest of the children of the world, and their tongues were still heard by mortal ears.


 which seems to imply that they afterwards departed.


But many Elves stayed, including Eldar: Sindar and Nandor especially. They are supposed to still be here today (!) but they have faded: become sort of invisible, shunning Men and daylight, remaining only in songs. Much more was made of this idea in the early stages of the mythology: see in particular BOLT vol2: Erion/Ælfwine.


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## Tar-Elenion (Jul 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rúmil _
> All the reamining High-Elves departed at the end of the Third Age (with the possible exception of Maglor) which seems to imply that they afterwards departed.



Not all. Some High-elves remained well into the Fourth Age.
"There, though Elrond had departed, his sons long remained, together with some of the High-elven folk." 
LotR, Prologue


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## Rúmil (Jul 14, 2002)

True! So at least two for certain, and perhaps a third. Still not a lot tough, nearly all the calaquendi were back in Valinor when the fourth Age started.


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## Tar-Elenion (Jul 14, 2002)

The quote from LotR says "his sons long remained, *together with some* of the High-elven folk." 
"Some" indicates more than two or three.


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## ¤-Elessar-¤ (Jul 15, 2002)

I beleive that they sailed on the last ship, I am fairly sure that I remember it from somewhere. Anyways, I am positive that I have read taht all of the Noldor departed. Save the one who was never heard of again.


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## Tar-Elenion (Jul 15, 2002)

You are perhaps recalling:


> But when all these things were done, and the Heir of Isildur had taken up the lordship of Men, and the dominion of the West had passed to him, then it was made plain that the power of the Three Rings also was ended, and to the Firstborn the world grew old and grey. *In that time the last of the Noldor set sail from the Havens and left Middle-earth for ever*. And latest of all the Keepers of the Three Rings rode to the Sea, and Master Elrond took there the ship that Círdan had made ready.
> _The Silmarillion_, 'Of the Rings of Power'



This can be taken to imply that all the Noldor left by the time Elrond left, but this is from an essay that JRRT did not revise for publication or to be entirely consistant with LotR. If taken to mean that all the remaining Noldor left Middle-earth with Elrond, then it is contradicted by LotR which was revised and published by JRRT and thus takes precedence.
LotR specifically states:


> There, though Elrond had departed, his sons long remained, together with some of the High-elven folk.


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## ¤-Elessar-¤ (Jul 15, 2002)

...

Then it must be that his sons had chosen with their sister, and became mortal men. For that is the only way that they could have or would have stayed.


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## Rúmil (Jul 15, 2002)

Maybe nto; after all, at the end of the First Age, many stayed through sheer love of ME. Being born in ME and furthermore half-Men, Elrond's sons may have preferred to stay in ME just for the same reasons.


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## Tar-Elenion (Jul 15, 2002)

In Letter 153 JRRT wrote: "Elrond passes Over Sea. The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while."


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## ¤-Elessar-¤ (Jul 16, 2002)

hmm... 
Well, I guess it is an exception.


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## Camille (Jul 17, 2002)

Ok but th question has not answered yet! Where are the Avari???
thank for posting the thread Elessar that is a question that I had in mind.
Ok it is told that the last of the high elves leave ME and they are the Noldor, and the othe ones? the sindar were invited to go too (legolas did) but I think there were some other elves in the east of ME:
not the exact quote but in the Sil : Of Men, it is said that some families of men went to the west trying to escape from the "shadow" thewre they meet dark elves, what happend to that dark elves? where all after the destruction of Belerian part of the Wood elves in Mirkwood?
and the fading of the elves or gnomes, I think that was an early theory of Tolkien and he abandoned it for the trip to Earessea.


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## Rúmil (Jul 17, 2002)

He did not abandon the idea of the fadin of the Elves, indeed it was discussed in Home vol X, which gathers later writings of Tolkien, I think.


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## Camille (Jul 17, 2002)

Really? did not that, I was talking about what it is said on the Book of lost tales (1 and 2)
Could you quote it?


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## Rúmil (Jul 17, 2002)

Alas, I can't quote it. I've only read Morgoth's Ring once, and I don't own a copy (yet).


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## jbravo (Jul 17, 2002)

*fading elves*

New user here with questions about which elves faded. The discussions I've seen in this thread focus mainly on who was left after certain ages. However, as far as I can tell, from the Silmarillion and the LOTR, the first mention of any elves even having to fade in the first place came when Mandos pronounced the doom of the Noldor. He said they would eventually fade as punishment for the slaying of the Teleri, and one reason why the rings of power were so attractive to them is that this prevented, or slowed, the fading. I've not seen anywhere, however, where the Firsborn were created with some predetermined requirement for fading. Thus, I thought any Eldar who didn't get killed off fighting Melkor, and the Teleri who stayed East of Ered Luin, along with the Avari, wouldn't have to worry about fading at all. It seems like they still had the option to sail from the Havens, but they shouldn't have to. Nonetheless, it does seem that as one goes through the LOTR, that all the sudden all elves have this doom to fade. What gives? This question is why I joined this site in the first place, and it looks like there's a lot of good conversation going on.

jbravo


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## Cian (Jul 17, 2002)

Yes, it was the fate (ultimately) of an Elf who remained in Middle-earth long enough, to 'fade' ~ not only in the historic sense, for example, but physically too.



> "Then an Elf would begin (as they say now, for these things did not fully appear in the Elder Days) to 'fade', until the _fea_ as it were consumed the _hroa_ until it remained only in the love and memory of the spirit that inhabited it." JRRT "Myths Transformed" _Morgoth's Ring_



Tolkien also explained (in the same essay) that their bodies, being of the "stuff of Arda", were not so enduring as their spirits; however in Aman the spirit and body aged apace. There's more, but that's something


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## Walter (Jul 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Camille _
> *Really? did not that, I was talking about what it is said on the Book of lost tales (1 and 2)
> Could you quote it? *





> But according to the passages bearing on the later Aelfwine version, the elves of Tol Eressea who had left Luthany were unfaded or had ceased to fade


Is that what you mean, Camille?


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## Camille (Jul 18, 2002)

yes thanks Walter, I remember reading from the notes of C. Tolkien in the story of Elfwine the fading of the elves, but it was somehow like the very begining of the Sil and the stories took a different road, but I do not have the others HOME books. what a sad though!, so the other elves that did not get to the Undying lands are in ME, but only their spirit


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## Cian (Jul 18, 2002)

And I note the similarity of the quote Walter has given, to Tolkien's much later thoughts in MR ~ the Elves who had left Luthany (England) were unfaded, or had ceased to fade in Elvish Tol Eressea (in the Eriol conception Tol Eressea was to become 'England') ~ compare Tolkien's much later statement that in Aman Elvish bodies aged apace with their spirits, and thus did not 'fade'. 

The early concept of the 'diminutiveness' of the faded Elves would be abandoned, but not that Men could no longer "see the fairies".


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## Cian (Jul 18, 2002)

Camille, it may hearten to add that Tolkien drew a distinction between 'faded' Elves, the _Lingerers,_ and an Elf who had been killed or whatnot, and who yet refused the Summons West in spirit, one of the _Houseless_

Tolkien wrote that the Lingerers: _"... are not houseless, though they may seem to be."_ ~ and they could reveal their beautiful forms to Men's minds (if desired, albeit rarely), but that the _Houseless_ had no forms to reveal (generally these could be perilous to Men).


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## Walter (Jul 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Cian _
> The early concept of the 'diminutiveness' of the faded Elves would be abandoned, but not that Men could no longer "see the fairies".


At the end of "Smith of Wootton Major" the star (which is more or less the ticket to Faerie) is passed on, which IMO represents Tolkien's view at the end of his life: There will always be some people around, who are allowed to travel to Faerie, who are able to see the Faeries...

----
Camille, what about a deal: I get an icecream for each quote I find for you?


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## jbravo (Jul 19, 2002)

This discussion has been very enlightening, but it still seems from all this that the Valar wound up determining the fate of the elves, when that should have been of their essence as determined by Lluvatar. From what I've gleaned from the Silmarillion and from your discussions, elves who stay in ME fade, regardless of whether they started the Westward journey or not. Moreover, those who started West can stop fading if they depart from the Havens eventually, whereas the Avari appear to be hosed, i.e. they fade and don't have the opportunity to leave ME. Even worse, if I read your discussions correctly, the lingerers, i.e. Eldar who stayed and faded, can still make themselves known to men, but the Avari again are faded for good. Which brings me back to my original question: Why is the very essence of being an elf affected by whether or not they decided to travel West? Were they "made to fade" from the beginning, and their association with the Valar prevented that? And is that why Mandos's doom for the Noldor that they will fade worked, because they were disposessed from the Valar and put back into their original fading mode in ME? I guess this ability of the Valar to modify/enhance the nature of the elves by halting their fading would be analogous to how they boosted the nature of the Edain in Numenor, huh? Am I close or way off on this?


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## Rúmil (Jul 19, 2002)

It is the presence of the Valar znd the Light of the trees that made the Eldar "superior" to the Avari. The Elves were not made to fade, they were meant to be _all_ gathered in Valinor. If the Avari are experiencing a few fading problems due to there refusal of going West, it's their own fault. Yes, the boosting of the Eldar is analogous to the lengthening of the life-span of the Edain; it is caused by the blessing of the Valar and the proximity of Valinor, and the "good will" of the recipients. If any of these factors fail, the gift dwindles.


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## jbravo (Jul 19, 2002)

Rumil, 
Thanks for helping tie all this together. After ~ 20 years, I went back and read the Hobbit and LOTR when I heard the movie was coming out last year, got much more out of them the second time through, and really got hooked. I tackled the Silmarillion and am reading it again before I re-read the LOTR. Then it's on to the 4-book subset of the History of ME I just got. The replies you all have made to my query have really been helpful, and I hope I won't be accused of belaboring the point by asking about something in your response.

You said that elves "were meant to be all gathered in Valinor." It seemed like there was some dissention among the Valar about whether to ask them to come or not in the first place, and there certainly didn't appear to be any evidence that I could see where Lluvatar gave them such a directive to invite them. In fact, it said somewhere that whenever the Valar have tried to influence the Children in some way, it often has not worked out so well. So, I see what you mean by the Light and the Valar giving a gift to the elves, but this still all makes it seem like fading may have been part of their being. Could it be that they were meant to fade in ME, but they all had the opportunity to become rejuvinated in the Halls of Mandos afterwards? By living on Valinor, they didn't fade. I'm sure I'll get the hang of it as I read more, and I appreciate everyone's thoughts on this.


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## Rúmil (Jul 19, 2002)

Please, ask all the questions you will 

Originally, of course, the plan was not to pack all the Elves away in Valinor. The original plan was that all of Arda was supposed to be like Valinor. Confronted to the problem that had arisen, i.e. that Melkor was making ME an evil place, they were unsure about what they should do. The reasoning that prevailed was this: this place we are in is what the natural habitat of Elves should be like. The place they are in at the moment in not like this. So, move them to Valinor.

It is not said that when the Valar tried to influence the children of Illúvatar it had not worked well, it is said that it nerver had worked when they had tried to do so by force.

Hope this is helpful


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## Cian (Jul 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Walter _
> ... which IMO represents Tolkien's view at the end of his life: There will always be some people around, who are allowed to travel to Faerie, who are able to see the Faeries...



Perhaps folk like:



> "Indeed they [_Lingerers_] do not seek converse with Men at all, save rarely, either for the doing of some good, or because they perceive in a Man's spirit some love of things ancient and fair. ... (my edit) ... For the hearts of true Men uprise in joy to behold the true likenesses of the First-born, the elder kindred; and this joy nothing evil can counterfeit". JRRT _Morgoth's Ring_


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## jbravo (Jul 19, 2002)

Eureka !!!!

Rumil finally set me straight with this: "Originally, of course, the plan was not to pack all the Elves away in Valinor. The original plan was that all of Arda was supposed to be like Valinor. Confronted to the problem that had arisen, i.e. that Melkor was making ME an evil place, they were unsure about what they should do." I remember all that, but hadn't considered my question in that context. I'm cured. Thanks.


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## Walter (Jul 20, 2002)

Yes, Cian - well at least there's some hope for some of us, maybe...


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## aragil (Jul 22, 2002)

Just adding in 2 cents here:

I don't think the Morgoth's Ring quote first cited by Cian said that all Avari fade in a different way than the Eldar. My take was that there were (are?) two varieties of Elven-fea wandering around. There are those who have faded, who can still reveal themselves (both Eldar and Avari, IMO), and then there are those who have been slain, and then refused the summons of Mandos. I think the latter are a majority Avari, but still the Avari can make it to Valinor, either by obeying the summons upon death, or simply by sailing (Legolas did it, and he might have been half Sinda/half Avari).

FYI jbravo- Tolkien referred to Morgoth's effect on Middle-earth as 'Arda Marred'. Since Morgoth's Ring is being quoted in this thread, here's an interesting (IMO) bit of Middle-earth trivia for you. The title (MR) refers to the fact that Morgoth put his power into Arda in the same way that Sauron put his power into the One Ring. This is how Arda became marred, and how one as mighty as Melko could be injured by Fingolfin, and finally cast down by the Valar. However, Morgoth's power can never be totally destroyed as Sauron's was, because all of Arda is in effect 'Morgoth's Ring'. Consequently, Morgoth is still around, and his evil endures.


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## Cian (Jul 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by aragil: _I don't think the Morgoth's Ring quote first cited by Cian said that all Avari fade in a different way than the Eldar. My take was that there were (are?) two varieties of Elven-fea wandering around. ...



I probably should have added, regarding the "Houseless": _"But it would seem that in these after-days more and more of the Elves, be they of Eldalië in origin or be they of other kinds, who linger in Middle-earth now refuse the summons of Mandos, and wander houseless in the world, ..."_ ~ so indeed I was trying to point out a distinction between a faded Elf and a 'houseless' one in my post.


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## jbravo (Jul 22, 2002)

Aragil,

Thanks. Your ideas fit well with the other discussions. The idea that "the Avari can make it to Valinor, either by obeying the summons upon death, or simply by sailing (Legolas did it, and he might have been half Sinda/half Avari)" sort of fits with my original idea, which is that the Avari really aren't much different than he Teleri, or even the High Elves for that matter, in terms of their nature. It's just a matter of when they decide to obey the summons. The earlier point about the elves who saw the light of the trees and lived on Valinor is well taken, but if the Avari wait and head West in the third age of ME or go after they are slain, they still have a chance to reach Valinor. However, if they stay and fade they're out of luck, and from what I can tell, the last ship left with Elrond on board.

The Morgoth's ring idea is interesting, too. It'll take me awhile to get to that book, but it fits well with the earlier comment about why all elves in ME fade are doomed to fade and why moving to Valinor is so important.


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## aragil (Jul 22, 2002)

jbravo- There is hope for the Avari still. Elrond didn't take the last ship- Sam went later, and Gimli and Legolas even later still. Celeborn almost certainly left at some point in the fourth age, and it is possible that the sons of Elrond went with him. Finally, and most importantly IMO, Cirdan stayed in Middle-earth. It is he who will take the true 'Last Ship' into the West. Somewhere is a quote that backs me up here, but I am currently without books.


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## jbravo (Jul 22, 2002)

Cool. I didn't know the other guys sailed. I do remember reading about Cirdan sailing on the last ship, but I thought it was the one Elrond and company took at the end of LOTR.


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