# To be an Orc.



## cammy (Dec 19, 2004)

A sad fate. Could there ever be an Orc with a conscience? A feeling of pity for Orcs is never suggested in Tolkien's world. To be an Orc is to be damned for ever. Pretty hard stuff, don't ye think?


----------



## Barliman Butterbur (Dec 19, 2004)

cammy said:


> A sad fate. Could there ever be an Orc with a conscience? A feeling of pity for Orcs is never suggested in Tolkien's world. To be an Orc is to be damned for ever. Pretty hard stuff, don't ye think?



Actually, cammy — someone pretending to be age 4 — pretty hard to take you seriously...unless you made a typo...is that it?

According to the way Tolkien wrote the story, orcs were corrupted elves — corrupted past the point of redemption, even though Tolkien apparently believed that even such as Saruman and Grima could have been redeemed. I daresay however that such as Melkor and Sauron could not have been.

Barley


----------



## Turin (Dec 19, 2004)

Interesting question, I've never given it much consideration. I always thought of orcs as entirely and hopelessly evil.
Theres my answer, short and sweet. 

Btw, welcome to the forum  .


----------



## David Pence (Dec 19, 2004)

Tolkien did not believe that anyone was completely evil, at least in origin.

Though Tolkien wrote that _"Sauron represents as near an approach to the wholly evil will as is possible,"_ he wrote elsewhere that _"Sauron was of course not 'evil' in origin. He was a 'spirit' corrupted by the Prime Dark Lord (the Prime sub-creative Rebel) Morgoth."_

There are other sources available for you to research, all of which would indicate that it was at least in the realm of possibility for an orc to have feelings of compassion or 'pity.'


----------



## cammy (Dec 20, 2004)

OI! I wondered for a moment why Barley was referring to me as a 4 year old. Now I see that it appears at the top of my post! I seem to remember when I registered that it was mentioned that I didn't have to give my date of birth, so I had just typed anything. For what it matters, I'm 50 years old. Can I be taken seriously now?
Thanks for the replys. I have often wondered about this basic question and would love to have discussed it with T himself.
This looks like an interesting and stimulating place.


----------



## Manwe (Dec 21, 2004)

I always thought of orcs as nothing more than bodies used to fight. They are creatures that live to die. They arent 'evil' as such, they are just created and programmed to fight. They don't have any feelings except for hatred and fear. They cant be creative or love others. They're just walking weapons, nothing more. Well, thats what I think anyway


----------



## Hammersmith (Jan 19, 2005)

Manwe said:


> I always thought of orcs as nothing more than bodies used to fight. They are creatures that live to die. They arent 'evil' as such, they are just created and programmed to fight. They don't have any feelings except for hatred and fear. They cant be creative or love others. They're just walking weapons, nothing more. Well, thats what I think anyway


 
I'd disagree with that, as they are certainly hinted at as being malicious. If they have malice and negativity, surely they must have the ability to reject this? Perhaps, perhaps not. But they are certainly not neutral tools to evil. Most are actively nasty. Okay, all that are described are actively nasty. This either follows that they are all evil, or are divided, some good and some evil. Perhaps 'good' orcs are euthanised at spawning?


----------



## Akallabeth (Jan 20, 2005)

What immediately comes to mind for me is this passage in _The Two Towers_:


> 'I'd like to try somewhere where there's none of 'em. But the war's on now, and when that's over things may be easier.'
> 'It's going well, they say.'
> 'They would,' grunted Gorbag. 'We'll see. But anyway, if it does go well, there should be a lot more room. What d'you say?-if we get a chance, you and me'll slip off and set up somewhere on our own with a few trusty lads, somewhere where there's good loot nice and handy, and no big bosses.'
> 'Ah!' said Shagrat. 'Like old times.'
> ...


 I've always loved this conversation between the two orc-captains Shagrat and Gorbag, because it seemed to give a personality to the orcs. To give them a more human side.


----------



## Thorondor_ (May 26, 2005)

I must confess the image of the orcs from the Warcraft universe got stucked with me. I would tend to see them as fierce but also brave warriors. At least for the last part, this is not true for Tolkien's world.. too bad


----------



## Alatar (May 26, 2005)

I read an essay saying preety certainly that they had no Fea or soul.


----------



## Entmoot (May 26, 2005)

> "'You think, as is your wont, my lord, of Gondor only,' said Gandalf. 'Yet there are other men and other lives, and time still to be. And for me, I pity even his slaves.' "



Gandalf is here referring to Saurons slaves.


----------



## Entmoot (May 26, 2005)

I think this might be the essay you're referring to. I posted it a few weeks ago. 

I prefer the 'They were elves' scenario aesthetically but the author makes a good case against.

On the Origins and Nature of Orcs


----------



## Thorondor_ (May 27, 2005)

Well, the author of the essay kinda contradicts himself: at one point he says "They originate genetically from Elves and Men " while also saying "They are not directly descended from Elves and Men". Also, if "the proposal that Orcs were essentially his puppets could also be retained" is a true statement, then orcs can't be blamed for anything. Convenient, but it would suck if they did so much harm and can't be held responsible.


----------



## ingolmo (May 27, 2005)

As I posted somewhere else, I think that orcs did have a conscience, the power to do as their will, but they didn't, because their nature was simply such that they aided the activities of the enemy, or they obeyed Morgoth and Sauron out of sheer fear of what might be their punishment if they did not do as they were told.


----------



## Durin's Bane (May 27, 2005)

Thorondor_ said:


> I must confess the image of the orcs from the Warcraft universe got stucked with me. I would tend to see them as fierce but also brave warriors. At least for the last part, this is not true for Tolkien's world.. too bad


 
Nice, another co-warcraft-fan...

• Their wills and actions derive from Morgoth.
Well, what happened when Morgoth was 'outta here'?

Anyway, Tolkien's orcs remind me of warcraft undeads...


----------



## Barliman Butterbur (May 28, 2005)

cammy said:


> OI! I wondered for a moment why Barley was referring to me as a 4 year old.



According to the latest entries, now you're 5, so everything's all right now! 

Barley


----------

