# Can Gandalf take on the Witch King?



## WizardKing (Jan 11, 2003)

if so what powers does he have and how would he use it?


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## Wulf of Dunland (Jan 11, 2003)

He could, if he would win is the question...


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## Lantarion (Jan 11, 2003)

As the Grey, yes but his victory would be doubtful. After all the Witch-king was probably the most powerful 'sorceror' (as much as anybody was a 'sorceror' in Tolkien's world) in M-e after Sauron. But as the White he would have vanquished hik utterly, IMHO. He was under the utter grace of the Valar and to be honest I think nobody could have killed him, not even Sauron. Whether he could kill Sauron is another question, but I think not.


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## Rúmil (Jan 11, 2003)

At least Gandalf himself felt confident he could kill him:



> Gandalf looked through the gaping Gate, and already on the fields he heard the gathering sound of battle. He clenched his hand. ‘I must go ‘ he said. ‘The Black Rider is abroad, and he will yet bring ruin on us. I have no time.’


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## BlackCaptain (Jan 11, 2003)

Good question... But the nazgul flees before gandalf has a chance to fight him


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## Anamatar IV (Jan 11, 2003)

Gandalf could not _kill_ the witch king:



> Not by the hands of men shall the witch king meet his end



Or that is possibly paraquoting.

Gandalf was an old man in Middle-earth so he could not kill the Witch King...but as we know in RotK he can battle him.


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## BlackCaptain (Jan 11, 2003)

I dont think you can say that, because Gandalf isnt a man. He's in the body of a man, but that doesnt make him a man. Thats like saying that Tom Bombadil couldnt kill him. Tom's in the form of a man, but he could still kill the witch-king, but he'd need a lot of luck...


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## Anamatar IV (Jan 11, 2003)

When they take the form of Men they *are* men...sort of but also that quote referred to the gender of men (I think that we agreed it was a combo of the two in the thread I started).


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## redline2200 (Jan 12, 2003)

Gandalf _could_ kill the witch king. First of all Gandalf was NOT a man. He was a WIZARD. There is a tremendous difference between a wizard and a man. Gandalf was A Maia for pete's sake!! Can you compare a maia and a man? No!! Taking into consideration that Gandalf was the white and the fact that he possessed one of the rings of power, i think Gandalf could have eventually defeated the witch-king.


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## BlackCaptain (Jan 12, 2003)

exactly


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## Anamatar IV (Jan 12, 2003)

Of course he could *defeat* the witch king:



> The Dark Lord has Nine. But we have One, mightier
> than they: the White Rider



But if Gandalf could actually kill the witch king why did he not when he confronted him in the battle of the Pelannor fields? Yes, he was a maia, and no I can't compare a maia to a man but Gandalf took form of a Man when he came upon the shores of Middle-earth. And he was also genderly a man-remember the part the Eowyn played in the killing of the Witch-king.


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## LordOfMoria (Jan 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Wulf of Dunland _
> *He could, if he would win is the question... *



Oh i am sure he would cause didnt Eomer Kill him? and he is only a man.


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## FoolOfATook (Jan 12, 2003)

Eowyn killed the Witch-King, with the aid of Merry- Eomer wasn't involved.


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## LordOfMoria (Jan 12, 2003)

Ah ok, i was close though. all the names sound alike


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## FoolOfATook (Jan 12, 2003)

It's no big deal, and the more time you spend with the books, or even in the forum here, the better you will remember names, especially names of family members with similar constructions.


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## BlackCaptain (Jan 12, 2003)

Doesnt he fend off all the Nazgul, including the Witch-King atop Amon Sul?
Then he fends the Witch-King off at the Gates of Gondor too...


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## redline2200 (Jan 13, 2003)

and also, doesnt Gandalf say in the two towers that he is the most powerful thing that Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli will ever see, unless they come before Sauron's throne? Well that would certainly make huim more powerful than the witch king


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## BlackCaptain (Jan 13, 2003)

Who's Gandalf talkin about? Not himself is he? Can you show me a quote?


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## Anamatar IV (Jan 13, 2003)

> 'Dangerous!' cried Gandalf. 'And so am I, very dangerous: more
> dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive
> before the seat of the Dark Lord.



But still, danger and power have nothing to do with whether or not he can kill the witch king! Gandalf could defeat the ringwraiths one by one until he and the witch king stood and they could fight for hours on end yet, as it was prophecied by Glorfindel, the hands of Men (gender and race) would not deal the witch king the death blow.


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## BlackCaptain (Jan 13, 2003)

So since you say Gender AND race, does that mean that a male hobbit could kill him, say... Merry?

or perhaps you mean Gender OR race


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## Anamatar IV (Jan 13, 2003)

Ah well read this thread to figure that out...I still couldnt make heads for tails of the verdict.


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## docta_j (Jan 3, 2004)

wait so if the witchking cannot be killed by the hands of men then how did eowyn kill him???


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## BlackCaptain (Jan 3, 2004)

She's a woman ;-) 

Remember Merry didnt deal the death blow... He simply hindered the process of me destroying Eowyn. Unfortunately, Eowyn was quick to take advantage of it, and destroyed me. I dont like to use the word 'Kill', since I'm kind of already dead in a wierd way...


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## Úlairi (Jan 4, 2004)

If you call the 'Voice of Saruman' a display of power, then I guess we could quite easily say that Gandalf would win against the Witch-King of Angmar.



> _Unfinished Tales_
> *"Two days after Gandalf had departed from Orthanc, then Lord of Morgul halted before the Gate of Isengard. Then Saruman, already filled with wrath and fear by the escape of Gandalf, perceived the peril of standing between enemies, a known traitor to both. His dread was great, for his hope of deceiving Sauron, or at the least of receiving his favour in victory, was utterly lost. Now either he himself must gain the Ring or come to ruin and torment. But he was wary and cunning still, and he had ordered Isengard against just such an evil chance. The Circle of Isengard was too strong for even the Lord of Morgul and his company to assail without great force of war. Therefore to his challenge and demands he received only the answer of the voice of Saruman, that spoke by some art as though it came from the Gate itself.
> 'It is not a land that you look for,' it said. 'I know what you seek, though you do not name it. I have it not as surely its servants perceive without telling; for if I had it, then you would bow before me and call me Lord. And if I knew where this thing was hid, I should not be here, but long gone before you to take it. There is one only whom I guess to have this knowledge, Mithrandir, enemy of Sauron. And since it is but two days since he departed from Isengard, seek him nearby.'
> Such still was the power of the voice of Saruman that even the Lord of the Nazgûl did not question what it said, whether it was false or short of the full truth; but straightaway he rode from the Gate and began to hunt for Gandalf in Rohan."*



Great indeed must the power of the voice of Saruman be, if he can convince the Lord of the Nazgûl to take his word for it, when there was a definite chance that he was lying to steer them astray. And don't forget the errand of the Úlairi, to retrieve the Ring! If Saruman got it then Sauron would indeed be vanquished, so, to trust Saruman on such a matter of supreme importance would require great power on the part of Saruman. When Gandalf becomes White, he is greater than Saruman, and therefore by logical deduction, Gandalf too, must be more powerful than the Lord of Morgul. However, to me, this seems like a weak argument. 

A far better one is the fact that the Lord of Morgul was enslaved into Sauron's service through a Ring of Power. If Gandalf or Saruman possessed one of the Nine Rings, then I believe that they wouldn't be overcome by them. I mean, c'mon, they perceived that they could use the One Ring, and therefore must be more powerful if they can wield it, and not become subject to it. It was conceived that Glorfindel could take the Witch-King on. Gandalf makes a reference to mortals and Great Rings in _The Shadow of the Past_, he never mentions immortals. He therefore makes a distinction between the two. The Witch-King was a mortal, and was therefore of lesser stature to Gandalf (and the Elves). But, the power given to the Witch-King by Sauron would indeed be another matter. But this quote says it all.



> _The Letters of JRR Tolkien: Letter #210 from a letter to Forrest J. Ackerman, June 1958_
> *"It is based on the misconception of the Black Riders throughout, which I beg Z to reconsider. Their peril is almost entirely due to the unreasoning fear which they inspire (like ghosts). They have no great physical power against the fearless; but what they have, and the fear that they inspire, is enormously increased in darkness. The Witch-King, their leader, is more powerful in all ways than the others; but he must not yet be raised to the stature of Vol. III. There, put in command by Sauron, he is given an added demonic force. But even in the Battle of the Pelennor, the darkness had only just broken. See III 114."*



I would say that most of the people of ME would indeed fear the Nazgûl (they'd scare the sh*t out of me! ), but I wouldn't think that Gandalf feared them, not even the Witch-King, and therefore as they have no great physical power against the fearless, then, undoubtedly, he'd win!


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## Flammifer (Jan 4, 2004)

Yes, well put Úlairi!

In regards to Glorfindel's prochecy, I would diagree with those who say that Gandalf couldn't take on the Witch-king because he was a man.



Anamatar IV said:


> But still, danger and power have nothing to do with whether or not he can kill the witch king! Gandalf could defeat the ringwraiths one by one until he and the witch king stood and they could fight for hours on end yet, as it was prophecied by Glorfindel, the hands of Men (gender and race) would not deal the witch king the death blow.



Yeah, but Gandalf _isn't_ a man. He's in the form of the Man, but he is neither a man in gender of race. He is _male_, but he is neither a man nor a Man. So theoretically he could have been the one to kill the Witch-king, but Eowyn beat him to it!

And yes, Gandalf _is_ capable of killing the Witch-king for other reasons. Gandalf is a Maia - he has the inherent power of one of the Ainur that sprang from the thought of Eru before there was Time. He is of an order that is the second-most powerful in Arda. A Man, whether enhanced by sorcery and the devices of Sauron, cannot defeat with him. Gandalf's (particularly as the White) power, _unveiled_, is too great for any to hope to withstand (save Sauron, Saruman, possibly Galadriel).

Now, the Witch-king is undead, but he is still a Man. Consider this: as a Man his power can only be increased according to his stature in the beginning (much like how the Ring increases the power of the bearer). Therefore, no matter how much sorcery or power Sauron invests in the Witch-king, he can never be as great as a Maia, who is inherently of greater stature in the beginning.

Now I'm not saying that's correct, I'm just suggesting it.


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## Úlairi (Jan 5, 2004)

Well, if Sauron completely invested himself in the Witch-King and regained the Ring, then the Witch-King would indeed be a Maia and a little more over than that. But it would merely be Sauron inhabiting his body.


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## celebdraug (Jan 6, 2004)

okay! so *only * a woman who was from the race of men could kill the WK? so an female or male elf could not kill him?


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## Úlairi (Jan 6, 2004)

Well, perhaps someone could provide the quote!!! I tried cross-referencing them (Glorfindel and the Witch-King) in _The Lord of the Rings_, _Unfinished Tales_, and _The Silmarillion_, so, I'm guessing they're in HoME, but that would take me a while to find, and I'm too tired.  So, perhaps someone could provide the quote?


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## Arvedui (Jan 6, 2004)

You must check the Appendices to LotR. It can be found there.

I don't have it here, but I guess it can be found in numerous places on TTF (I have posted it at least once...)
The point of Glorfindels prophecy was that it was exactly that: *a prophecy.* 

_Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary:_ 
*prophecy* 
1) a statement that sth will happen in the future, especially one made by sb with religious or magic powers
2) the power of being able to say what will happen in the future.

So there is a difference between a curse and a prophecy. That Glorfindel 'saw' that the Witch-king would be killed by a woman, did not mean that he couldn't be killed by a man, if you get the difference.


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## Flammifer (Jan 6, 2004)

> _LotR: The Appendices, Appendix A, "Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion"_
> 
> "Earnur now rode back, but Glorfindel, looking into the gathering dark, said : "Do not pursue him! He will not return to this land. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall." These words many remembered; but Earnur was angry, derising only to be avenged for his disgrace.



There's the quote.

So as you can see Glorfindel foresaw that the Witch-king would be killed by _someone other than a man_ (note the de-capitalisation of "man" ). Therefore theoretically any being other than a male of the race of Men might kill the Witch-king.

The problem that we seem to encounter time and time again when debating Glorfindel's prophecy is the difference between what _can_ happen and what _will_ happen.

Any being with the strength of mind and will to stand up to the Witch-king is _capable_ of killing him (this is the "what _can_ happen"). However, Glorfindel foresees that a being other than a man will defeat the Witch-king (this is the "what _will_ happen").

But one might say, "Then why would men try to kill the Lord of the Nazgul (for example King Earnur tried this) if they knew that they couldn't?" The answer is that even if a man won't kill him per se, they might defeat him, or his armies, not utterly, but for a while, and they might then have peace for a time. Isn't that worth fighting for? Isn't that worth dying for? (Sorry I had to put that in )


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## Úlairi (Jan 6, 2004)

Indeed well said Flammifer!


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## Fechin (Jan 12, 2004)

Yeah it would be a long battle but I think Gandalf would sweak by with a win!


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## Helcaraxë (Jan 18, 2004)

It's not that the Witch King couldn't be killed by men, only that he wouldn't. Without Merry's help, Eowyn couldn't have killed the WK, because when he stabbed the WK he broke the spell that protected him from mortal weapons. Presumably anyone with a bit of courage and a blade of Westernesse could have killed him, male or female.

MB


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## thominator (May 25, 2004)

*In the movie*

I do not believe that the WK would have prevailed over Gandalf the White had there actually been a battle between the two. Gandalf was of a higher order than the WK who was only human. Personally, I have always considered Gandalf more than capable of defeating any foe less than Sauron himself, and even then you're unsure as both were Maier.

The question I have is the movie. Even though there was no direct battle between the two in the books Tolkien wrote, or in the theater version of the movie, I believe that in the extended version of The Return of the King, that there will be such a battle and Gandalf's staff is broken then. I disagree that this should be in the movie but if you'll notice, Gandalf has no staff with him from the time he prevent Denethor from burning Faramir alive to the last battle. I would have much prefered Peter Jackson either not done this (as it was not written by Tolkien), or if he had rather had Gandalf repel the WK at that time.


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## Aglarband (May 26, 2004)

Gandalf does say something to Merry about how if he hadn't told him to save Faramir he would have been able to save Eowyn and Theoden from the black breath, I don't know if he meant to kill the Witch King or just make him run home to Sauron though.


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