# Plot hole in LotR



## Firawyn (Feb 18, 2013)

I was talking to a co-worker of mine the other night and Lord of the Rings came up (of course, I told me that he needs to join TTF). Anyhow, we got talking about the movies, including the recent "Hobbit" installment, and then plot holes came up. I'm paraphrasing here, but this is what he said:

_"I think one of the biggest plot holes in the Lord of the Rings was that if the Eagles picked the Hobbits up on Mt Doom, why didn't they just take them there in the first place? I think that Gandalf was leading them to the Eagles, up the mountain, when they were forced to abandon course and go into Moria. When Gandalf said "Fly you fools", I don't think he means "run away", but rather that he was trying to tell them to go back up the mountain to the Eagles."
_
I thought this was a really interesting theory, and was wondering what you lot thought about it.


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## Andreth (Feb 18, 2013)

The Valar, when deciding to send the Istari to Middle-Earth, were especially concerned by the fact that more often than not their intrusion in the matters of the Children of Iluvatar, displaying all their might in the process, ended up in the worst way; and, moreover, they were not allowed to meddle with any Mortal, while the War at the end of the Third Age was primarily concerned with Men, and the Elves were either dispersed all over the land, or already in Valinor. And, after all, the Eagles were Manwe's creatures, answering to his call


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## Prince of Cats (Feb 18, 2013)

They've said something to that effect in Family Guy I believe and it's been a sort of anti-lotr boilerplate-rhetoric for quite a while. I've had it brought up to me several times by people who hadn't read the books and/or disliked the movies


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## Mike (Feb 18, 2013)

Because the best way to sneak into Mordor unseen is to ride an enormous eagle there while bearing the ring. Sauron would never figure that one out.


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## Maiden_of Harad (Feb 18, 2013)

Tolkien may or may not have thought of the eagle idea-I do not know.
But it strikes me that, although there may have been easier ways to cast the Ring into Mount Doom, the journey to Mordor-with its agony and peril-was essential to Tolkien. Yes, the Ring would have been destroyed either way, but then Frodo ( and others ) would never have grown and matured through suffering if the easy way had been taken. 
I don't think that that part of the plot was a weakness.


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## Odin (Feb 20, 2013)

Maiden_of Harad said:


> Tolkien may or may not have thought of the eagle idea-I do not know.
> But it strikes me that, although there may have been easier ways to cast the Ring into Mount Doom, the journey to Mordor-with its agony and peril-was essential to Tolkien. Yes, the Ring would have been destroyed either way, but then Frodo ( and others ) would never have grown and matured through suffering if the easy way had been taken.
> I don't think that that part of the plot was a weakness.



But if you fly the Ring from Rivendell to Mordor and drop it in Mount Doom, you've won.

Sauron and his forces are destroyed and no one else dies. Not Boromir, not Hama, not Theodred, not the thousands of soldiers and civilians that die in the War of the Ring.

Using the Eagles to fly to Mordor would have ended the conflict early and saved thousands of lives.


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## Prince of Cats (Feb 20, 2013)

It might also not have been practical/feasible for the Eagles, or the council didn't think the Eagles would be willing. In The Hobbit the Eagles only bring the company so far because of men who would shoot bows at them to keep them from the sheep. Obviously they can fly pretty high to extract people from Mount Doom but along the plains they wouldn't have mountain eyries to rest in


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## Eledhwen (Feb 20, 2013)

The eagles were a device to be used sparingly. They were Maia; and as such were to interfere as little as possible in that world. The five Istari, also Maia, could have sorted Sauron out between them; but that was not their task. It was for those indigenous to Middle-earth to wrest it back, with the guidance, and not the interference, of the wizards (or the eagles).


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## Starbrow (Feb 21, 2013)

Maybe the council was afraid the Ring would be taken by the eagles.


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## Andreth (Feb 22, 2013)

I noticed only now that in my previous comment, I wrote First Age instead of Third Age  however, the idea is the same, as Eledhwen stated: the Eagles were Maiar, and the Valar had decided not to meddle too much in the matters of Men ( and surely this was one wise thought: just think about the fact that only one out of the Istari lot mantained his vow to help Middle-Earth against Sauron, while Saruman, and maybe even Alatar and Pallando, ended up on the enemy's side! ). And, however, I think that Sauron could have easily guessed this kind of move; and, while maybe the Nazgul would have proven quite a match for the eagles, I can easily see how such a thing could have resulted in a terrible mess, and the ring probably lost or taken in the process... The whole idea of the Fellowship was to go for the most unheeded route, because open war, such as certainly would have resulted from the employment of the Eagles, would have been probably won by Sauron, even without the ring


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## Gollum (Mar 14, 2013)

:*D


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## Withywindle (Apr 10, 2013)

Eledhwen said:


> The eagles were a device to be used sparingly. They were Maia; and as such were to interfere as little as possible in that world. The five Istari, also Maia, could have sorted Sauron out between them; but that was not their task. It was for those indigenous to Middle-earth to wrest it back, with the guidance, and not the interference, of the wizards (or the eagles).



The idea that the Istari together were anywhere near powerful enough to fight Sauron is part of the same misconception that the Eagles could have taken the Ring to Mordor. Sauron was immensely powerful, even without the Ring, and the whole of the land of Mordor was under his power- I mean physically, including the earth and the air itself. He would have spotted the Eagles carrying the Ring as soon as they left the Misty Mountains and would have smitten them from the air as soon as they crosed the Ered Lithui. The Council knew there was no way to carry the Ring into Mordor without Sauron´s preventing it, that is why Frodo was appointed in the belief or hope that destiny would find a way when all wisdom said that it would be impossible.


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## Eledhwen (Apr 11, 2013)

Withywindle said:


> The idea that the Istari together were anywhere near powerful enough to fight Sauron is part of the same misconception that the Eagles could have taken the Ring to Mordor. Sauron was immensely powerful, even without the Ring, and the whole of the land of Mordor was under his power- I mean physically, including the earth and the air itself. He would have spotted the Eagles carrying the Ring as soon as they left the Misty Mountains and would have smitten them from the air as soon as they crosed the Ered Lithui. The Council knew there was no way to carry the Ring into Mordor without Sauron´s preventing it, that is why Frodo was appointed in the belief or hope that destiny would find a way when all wisdom said that it would be impossible.


I disagree. Sauron was immensely powerful, yes; but it was the power of ruthlessness. This was contrary to the will of the Valar. If they wanted battle they would have sent Eönwë. They didn't. They sent Curumo; maybe because he might understand Sauron, both of them having been servants of Aulë, and having power in his voice. Olórin (Gandalf) was sent; who listened at the feet of Nienna and understood grief and compassion, and Aiwendil, meaning 'bird-friend' (Radagast) who learned from Yavanna. These last two had subtle powers, but not weak. The blue wizards seemed to have similar roles, to stir up opposition rather than to be the opposition or to lead it; and with Curumo were the first to come to Middle-earth in the second age. As it turned out, it was the servant of Nienna, who favoured pity over vengeance, whose wisdom won the day. So, though I am convinced that they were strong enough to fight Sauron, this they would not do; as they would need to become like him. Only Saruman had the audacity to raise himself up as a leader; following Sauron's example of corrupting men and breeding pitiless creatures to serve him. 


I agree that the Eagles could not (and should not) have taken the ring to Mordor; but it is not "part of the same misconception". Gwaihir the Windlord and his brother Landroval, swooped in to attack the Winged Nazgûl at the Battle of the Black Gate. He also previously turned the Battle of the Five Armies when all seemed lost. But these were acts of mercy rather than decisive victories to change history (or so it seemed a the time). 

Hindsight proved the Valar strategy to be correct, even if it had not been essential for a world destined for rule by men. What it does not prove is that Sauron, though a powerful maia, could have defeated those others of his type if they were prepared to go to the same lengths as he to wrest power from him.


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## Grond (Apr 11, 2013)

Withywindle said:


> The idea that the Istari together were anywhere near powerful enough to fight Sauron is part of the same misconception that the Eagles could have taken the Ring to Mordor. Sauron was immensely powerful, even without the Ring, and the whole of the land of Mordor was under his power- I mean physically, including the earth and the air itself. He would have spotted the Eagles carrying the Ring as soon as they left the Misty Mountains and would have smitten them from the air as soon as they crosed the Ered Lithui. The Council knew there was no way to carry the Ring into Mordor without Sauron´s preventing it, that is why Frodo was appointed in the belief or hope that destiny would find a way when all wisdom said that it would be impossible.


Au contrare Withywindle. You have actually hit upon the REAL hole plot in LOTR as argued by Ancalagon the Black and myself in 2002? Sauron is power deficient. Where in the books does Sauron ever illustrate any REAL power with or without the Ring? First, he is supposed to be all powerful with all his Rings (greater, lesser and the greatest) and yet the Numenoreans are able to vanquish him by a sheer show of force. His minions quail at the sight of the Numenorean fleet. Really?? 

Secondly, he is beat to a bloody pulp on the battlefield fighting a man and an elf. Really?? 

Remember that in both of the instances above, he had the Ring. Do you really think he could have overcome the Istari or the Eagles when he didn't have the Ring. My greatest frustration with the books was that Sauron was a hollow villain. He never showed any real power at all. I guess I need to go to the archives and dig that old debate up.

Cheers,

Grond


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## Withywindle (Apr 12, 2013)

While I admit that Sauron´s defeat by Elrond and Gil-Galad has always seemed somewhat incongruous, I do not see that anywhere else Sauron is depicted as being "power deficient". Certainly in the LOTR Sauron is consistently portrayed as by far the most powerful being in M.E., The Ring alone, containing part of Saurons´s power, we are told would totally dominate the will of any of the Wise who tried to use it - including fellow Maia the Istari. Only Bombadil we know was equal to the Ring, if not to Sauron himself, but we know that he was also a chief Maia. 

His capitulation before the Numenorean fleet is testament to the extraordinary power of Numenor, rather than Sauron´s weakness. When I say he was "immensely powerful" I am talkig in the context of the late TA: clearly he was no great shakes in the FA or when compared to many other great powers of the Elder Days. Lets not mix up the contexts, at the time of the LOTR there is no power in M.E. that could challenge him, even if united. The greatest military-magical power outside of Mordor was Isengard and yet Gandalf categorically tells us that "Isengard cannot fight Mordor"


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## Valandil (Apr 12, 2013)

Interesting thought Grond - and I wasn't here for those earlier discussions. To address it:

1. You might be underestimating the combined power of Gil-galad and Elendil, who are hardly just 'an elf and a man'. Their weapons (spear and sword) were considered quite powerful as well.
2. I can think of 4-5 times that Sauron was defeated/humbled in the 2nd & 3rd ages (mid-2nd by Elves & Numenoreans, later 2nd by fleet of Numenor, end 2nd by Last Alliance, retreated from Dol Guldor a time or two, then the ultimate (we hope) defeat - end of 3rd). In each case, perhaps he attacked too soon, building up his forces too little - or, even if the forces were great, just wouldn't stop his advances and over-extended himself (ie - first of those, mid 2nd).
3. It wouldn't be surprising if Sauron had to expend a lot of his power on a continual basis in times of war. At the end of the War of the Last Alliance, not only was he alone on Mt Doom - abandoned by all his servants - perhaps he was also quite drained. From the war effort, from the long seige, etc. Rather than always a 'hollow villain' - maybe by this time, he was a hollowed-out villain. Maybe this is why he was alone - and why his previous efforts at making war had all stalled.

But don't underestimate Elendil... or Gil-galad. 

Gandalf says something interesting at the Council of Elrond - about how he both underestimated and overestimated Sauron. I'll have to look it up later if I'm to continue this line of thought... RL and work beckon madly.


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## Eledhwen (Apr 12, 2013)

Withywindle said:


> The Ring alone, containing part of Sauron´s power, we are told would totally dominate the will of any of the Wise who tried to use it


And therein lay the strength of the wise. They had the strength of mind not to try for the Ring - Saruman excepted - as even to covet it was to risk falling under its influence. Sauron made himself as strong as he could, in secret. Perhaps he had learnt from his previous defeats. He had built a vast fortress and controlled many armies. He may have waited even longer before moving in strength; but knowing the Ring was near, and of Saruman's duplicity, he leapt to arms. In doing this, he was distracted; and two tiny hobbits were able to bring about his downfall.

Sauron's Ring was never really tested. It ruled the seven and the nine. The three would also be subject to it, if it was restored to him; but to what degree? The nine kings became the Nazgul; but they no longer ruled their lands. They were powerful, evil servants; but could be thwarted. The Dwarves were changed, but not dominated. Sauron took their rings back; and there was a King under the Mountain again, thanks to another little hobbit.

Wisdom, in Middle-earth, was foresight and a guiding hand; a hidden power and a king in waiting. And all this would have been for nothing if it weren't for the power of pity; for a mean creature spared, first by Bilbo, then by Frodo and finally by Samwise Gamgee. It seems that the forgotten heroine in this saga is Nienna, the Vala who inspired pity.


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## Grond (Apr 12, 2013)

Withywindle said:


> While I admit that Sauron´s defeat by Elrond and Gil-Galad has always seemed somewhat incongruous, I do not see that anywhere else Sauron is depicted as being "power deficient". Certainly in the LOTR Sauron is consistently portrayed as by far the most powerful being in M.E., The Ring alone, containing part of Saurons´s power, we are told would totally dominate the will of any of the Wise who tried to use it - including fellow Maia the Istari. Only Bombadil we know was equal to the Ring, if not to Sauron himself, but we know that he was also a chief Maia.
> 
> His capitulation before the Numenorean fleet is testament to the extraordinary power of Numenor, rather than Sauron´s weakness. When I say he was "immensely powerful" I am talkig in the context of the late TA: clearly he was no great shakes in the FA or when compared to many other great powers of the Elder Days. Lets not mix up the contexts, at the time of the LOTR there is no power in M.E. that could challenge him, even if united. The greatest military-magical power outside of Mordor was Isengard and yet Gandalf categorically tells us that "Isengard cannot fight Mordor"


I guess I'm trying to get you to think "outside the box". What the book says and what you read yourself in the book are often very different. In no single place do I see Sauron as being the "ultimate" power on Middle-earth except at the Gates of the Mordor with the host. When the ring is cast into the abyss, the servants of Sauron quailed. So he apparently had some "spritual hold" on them, bending them to his will. Having said that... I see much of the same characteristics in the Orc/Uruk-hai of Saruman. I think Tolkien intentionally made these issues very fuzzy so that the reader could form their own opinions of what was going on.

Cheers,

Grond


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## Withywindle (Apr 12, 2013)

Just to try nçand bring the discussion back to the original idea that there is a flaw in the plot of the LOTR given that there were other easier options open to the Council than sending a hobbit into Mordor, I really protest that Tolkien was very careful not to leave us that impression. All the discussions of the Wise centred on the fact that

a) Open assault by a combined force was not an option - when Gandalf answered Saruman´s summons before being imprisoned, he hoped Saruman might have some ideas as to how to combat Mordor, but he never entertained the hope that uniting with Saruman would bring victory.

b) A smaller task force of the very powerful would similarly fail to deliver the ring to Mount Doom - Gandalf tells us that Glorfindel was one of the most powerful figures around (and we know, if one accepts this version, that he had taken out at least one Balrog in the FA) but equally states that he cannot storm Mordor, nor unlock the Dark Tower by the power that is in him (or words to that effect, I don´t have the text with me).

c)That the domineering power of the Ring would cause any in contact with it to fall, especially as it got near to Nount Doom and its power grew. He knew, or hoped that only hobbits were sufficiently resistant to this effect as Bilbo´s long tenure had proven. This alone made it impossible to trust to the company of any but the hobbits.

d) Gandalf had a hunch - presumably shared by Elrond - that the Ring had come to Frodo as fate had marked him as the unlikely hero of the Age. We know Gandalf had no idea how Frodo would get to Mount Doom before he was forcibly separated from him, but he seemed to have the idea that Frodo was destined to achieve the quest and a way would open for him. In light of this belief, Gandalf did not dare to ignore the hand of destiny and consider any other option.


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## Eledhwen (Apr 13, 2013)

I think what this thread has shown is that, far from being flawed, the plot is deep and subtle. The great and good need the little and ordinary folk. Strength of arms is defeated by strength of character, but each needs the other for success. The Eagles played their part in the end; but only to ensure a 'eucatastrophe', as Tolkien put it.


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## whitelighter (Oct 27, 2014)

If anyone's interested I've tried to address this issue in story form. I haven't quite finished: http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?20294-The-Mystery-of-the-Eagles


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## Nessa Telperion (Mar 17, 2015)

I just want to point out, since no one else did, that Gandalf was the one who wanted to go through Moria. In the movie he's reluctant, but in the book it's Aragorn who is reluctant. The choice is left to Frodo, who trusts Gandalf, and thus they enter the mines. It wouldn't make sense for Gandalf to want to go through the mines if he was attempting to lead them to the top of the mountain to see the eagles. Because of this, I don't believe that was ever his intention.

I agree with what others have said before me as well. If the eagles had been asked, I think they would've refused to carry the ring. They were intelligent beings and only helped Gandalf because of the friendship between them, not because he held any power over them. Just as Gandalf refused to even touch the ring, and every other powerful being who could've challenged Sauron, the eagles would've wanted nothing to do with it. More than likely the Nazgul would've attacked and the quest would've failed.


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## Matthew Bailey01 (Mar 22, 2015)

I can't even count how many times I have had to shoot down this "supposed" plot hole.

It is no plot hole.

1) To first take on the claim "The Eagles were too proud to X" argument.

This is based upon a single exchange between Gwaihir and Gandalf after his rescue from Orthanc, where Gwaihir points out that he was sent to "bear messages" and not to act as Gandalf's personal taxi (to paraphrase). 

Gwaihir says this because Gandalf is not the only person for whom Gwaihir has messages. From "The History of Middle-earth" Gwaihir also had messages for Radagast, Bëorn, and Galadriel.

But, it is irrelevant, because in the chapter "The Field of Cormorant" in book VI, Gandalf relates how Sam and Frodo came to be saved when they awake to find themselves NOT DEAD!

There, Gandalf relates his exchange with Gwaihir, when he asks Gwaihir to take him into Mordor to try to rescue Frodo and Sam. Gwaihir's reply:

"I would bear you to the ends of the earth if you were to but ask."

The Eagles CLEARLY would have taken Gandalf, and anyone else, anywhere they asked.... Save for one problem.

2) It is no plot hole that they did not just fly to Mordor.

Gandalf, and Elrond KNEW that doing so would have just been flying the Ruling Ring straight into Sauron's waiting hands. Why is this?

a) The Ruling Ring CANNOT be just dropped into Orodruin. Doing this would be equivalent to handing the Ruling Ring back to Sauron. Yes, it would be a MAJOR PAIN for Sauron to get the Ruling Ring OUT of Orodruin, but he would have found a way.

The Ruling Ring MUST be dropped into the Sammath Nuar (Cracks of Doom) which are INSIDE ORODRUIN!

The Sammath Nuar is only accessible through a small doorway near the crater of Orodruin.

b) Sauron can easily detect the Ruling Ring when in direct line of sight, and in the open.

Flying on the Eagles would have put the Ruling Ring hundreds of feet up in the air, in the open, and in direct line of sight to Sauron, who after a day or so (It would take the Eagles about three days to fly to Mordor) Sauron would figure out what was happening, then order Half a Million Orcs to the slopes of Orodruin, along with an equal number of Haradrim, Easterlings, Khadririm, and who knows how many Trolls; and let's not forget the Nine Nazgûl, who would then seal up the Sammath Nuar.

c) As pointed out, Gandalf and Elrond would have known these things. They both would have known that trying to fly to Mordor was about the stupidest plan that existed aside from gift-wrapping the Ruling Ring and having it delivered to the Black Gates along with a "Get Well soon, Sauron. Here's your ring back" card.

3) Gandalf and Elrond both knew that stealth was the only way to keep Sauron from figuring out their goals. Any use of the Eagles, openly, would not be stealthy, but as Gandalf said on the slopes of Caradhras when he lights a fire "I have lit sign to any who can read it, from Rivendell to the Mouths of the Anduin: Gandalf is here."

4) Gandalf also had other goals along the way. He had to ascertain the role of the Balrog in the coming conflict; he had to figure out a way to deal with Saruman; he had to find a way to rouse Denethor to action in Gondor. And flitting about on Eagles would have upset his ability to do most of these.

MRB


I obviously take Middle-earth too seriously!


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## Matthew Bailey01 (Mar 22, 2015)

Oh, and the Eagles were not Maia. They were beings like the Ents, which arose of the need of one of the Valar, and were granted existence by Ilúvatar for Manwë (in exactly the same way that the Ents came into being for Yavana).

Thus, they did have an existence apart from the Children of Ilúvatar, which was more in tune with the power of the world, but they were not angelic beings.


I obviously take Middle-earth too seriously!


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