# Question about Sauron & The Fall Of Numenor



## Eruërthiel (Oct 15, 2004)

I have a minor question concerning Sauron and the fall of Numenor. It mainly involves the One Ring. In _The Silmarillion_, in the section _Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age, _it mentions that Sauron sank with Numenor:

_The world was broken, and the land was swallowed up, and the seas rose over it, and Sauron himself went down into the abyss._

My main question is in the next line:

_But his spirit arose, and fled back on a dark wind to Middle Earth, seeking a home._

Was Sauron wearing the One Ring at the time? I'm assuming he wouldn't have left such a powerful and tempting treasure in _anybody's_ care but his own, therefore, I don't think he left it at Barad'dur. So if he was wearing it, it would have gone down with him, and from what I understand, his physical form did not survive the fall. Shouldn't the ring have been lost in the middle of the ocean? I don't think even the power of Sauron could withdraw it from the depths of the ocean, as even the Valar themselves did not remove Maglor's Silmaril from the ocean. Any ideas on this subject?


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## Ithrynluin (Oct 16, 2004)

Hi Eruërthiel!  

This is one issue that has been bugging me ever since I read the relevant parts of the books, and still I am far from being sure of the answer! 

I think _Letter # 211_ is a good place to start:



> Sauron was first defeated by a 'miracle': a direct action of God the Creator, changing the fashion of the world, when appealed to by Manwë: see III p. 317. Though reduced to 'a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind', *I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring*, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended. That Sauron was not himself destroyed in the anger of the One is not my fault: the problem of evil, and its apparent toleration, is a permanent one for all who concern themselves with our world. The indestructibility of spirits with free wills, even by the Creator of them, is also an inevitable feature, if one either believes in their existence, or feigns it in a story.



So JRRT tells us that we should not question overmuch Sauron carrying off the One. But why?

In _The History of Middle-earth X: Morgoth's Ring; Myths Transformed_ :



> In any case is it likely or possible that even the least of the Maiar would become Orcs? Yes: both outside Arda and in it, before the fall of Utumno. Melkor had corrupted many spirits - some great, as Sauron, or less so, as Balrogs. The least could have been primitive (and much more powerful and perilous) Orcs; but by practising when embodied procreation they would (cf. Melian) [become] more and more earthbound, unable to return to spirit-state (even demon-form), until released by death (killing), and they would dwindle in force. When released they would, of course, like Sauron, be 'damned': i.e. reduced to impotence, infinitely recessive: still hating but unable more and more to make it effective physically *(or would not a very dwindled dead Orc-state be a poltergeist?)*.



Following on from the last part of the above quote, it seems that the professor turned over in his mind the concept of spirits being able to tamper with the physical world. Therefore, if an Ork could do it, then so too should Sauron (who was probably the greatest spirit drawn to Melkor's service) be able to do so, not least of all because he had a 'psychic' link with the One Ring.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Oct 16, 2004)

Tolkien:

"The indestructibility of spirits with free wills, even by the Creator of them, is also an inevitable feature, if one either believes in their existence, or feigns it in a story."

It also raises serious questions about God's omnipotence, and my curiosity about what Tolkien thought of God's powers or lack of them. Either God can do anything or not. Or is she hamstrung by her own laws? (Assuming for the moment that such a force exists...)

Barley


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## Eruërthiel (Oct 16, 2004)

Well, that gives me something to chew on for awhile. I'm dying to get the History Of Middle Earth collection so I can fill even more of my insatiable hunger for knowledge on Tolkien's works. Thanks for the info, Ithrynluin!


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## MichaelMartinez (Oct 17, 2004)

Barliman Butterbur said:


> Tolkien:
> 
> "The indestructibility of spirits with free wills, even by the Creator of them, is also an inevitable feature, if one either believes in their existence, or feigns it in a story."
> 
> ...


It is not that God is hamstrung, but that God makes the laws perfect by choosing to abide by them himself.

No exceptions, no double standards.

Hence, if God says a spirit is indestructible, then God has chosen not to destroy the spirit in order for the assertion to be true.

It's not about what God can or cannot do, but about what God chooses to do to not to do. If God can give everyone else free will, then God is certainly allowed to have free will, too.


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