# about trolls' accent



## frenchteacher (Feb 28, 2005)

Look out, I am French. Don't use terms I will not understand please.
I'm writing a book on The Hobbit.
I have a question:
Is there anybody who can tell me how to caracterize the accent of the Trolls : they say YER instead of YOU.
I don't think it's a cockney accent. Is it scottish ? Old Scottish? 
Thanks


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 28, 2005)

Wherever their accent hails from (so to speak), I would say the Trolls' speech is supposed to be loutish, ill-mannered, ungraceful, and simply conversational.

Welcome aboard, frenchteacher!


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## Eledhwen (Feb 28, 2005)

Yes, welcome from me too.

That particular aspect of the trolls' accent seems more Mancunian (Manchester) to me than Cockney. Tolkien will have been more familiar with the accents of the West Midlands and the North West than Cockney, as he lived just outside Birmingham as a child, and served in the Lancashire Fusiliers in WW1, where he would have encountered such speech among the enlisted men. It is also short for _your_ and _you're_, but I haven't got The Hobbit to hand to see if it's used thus by Tolkien.

I read (somewhere) that he regretted giving the trolls that style of speech, but I'm afraid I can't find the reference, or testify that it was reliable.


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## Aiglos (Feb 28, 2005)

It's West Country. Bristol, Somerset etc.

Which is where I live! 

If you think of them speaking a little like your average typical Pirate, you'll be fairly close.


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## Eledhwen (Feb 28, 2005)

Mae Govannen Aiglos! I'm not that far from you, when measured against most TTFers.


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## Aiglos (Feb 28, 2005)

Awright then me babber!

So you're not. Greetings then, to another Wes' Cun'ry person.

Churz


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## baragund (Feb 28, 2005)

Ithrynluin said:


> Wherever their accent hails from (so to speak), I would say the Trolls' speech is supposed to be loutish, ill-mannered, ungraceful, and simply conversational.



Here's an interesting conversation piece for our members from different countries. If Tolkien envisioned a West Midland or Northwest English accent to be symbolic of someone who is "loutish, ill-mannered" and the like, what accent would the Trolls have if they had something other than an English nationality?

For instance, if the Trolls were American (and who says they weren't  ) they might have the twang typical of someone who grew up in the "hollers" of Appalachia, or a drawl characteristic of the Deep South, or maybe a thick Brooklyn accent.

Welcome to the neighborhood, French Teacher! Maybe you can answer your own question by giving us the region of France that has the stigma of having a loutish or uncouth population.


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## frenchteacher (Mar 1, 2005)

Thank u for ur answers !
If i understand well what you said to me. It is completely useless to open old english dictionnaries to find a language that caracterize the Trolls. To explain this passage while resorting to Tolkien as a philogist is forced. 
The language used by Troll. The language of the Trolls is a familiar language which shows their bad manners, their lack of education. In France we have "a Parisian kid" but it's rather old-fashioned. In France actually we have a french slang in suburbs.
I am developping the idea that Trolls are ogres. They are not well educated. They are even idiotic. They don't know hobbit race, they quarrel. 
An other idea : "burrahobbit" is a port manteau word as in Alice in Wonderland and especially in "Jabberwocky". I develop this idea rather.
As for the trolls I compare them to ogres : the ogre of Tom Thumb, but Bettelheim in The Uses of Enchantment - in french _Psychanalyse du conte de fées_ - refers to _Jack the killer of giants. 
_Am I right about these explanations ?

I would like to ask you about an other subject. On a french forum it is said that number 13 in England does not carry misfortune. Is that right ? 
However Gandalf imposes to the dwarves the presence of Bilbo because they are 13.
Could you explain to me the origin of "Friday"? Is it right it comes from Freya day ?

Am I right if I make the suggestion that this point proves that Gandalf will not be a member of the aventure ?

Have a good day!

French Teacher (I beg ur pardon for my english). I dont neither speak nor write english fluently.


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## Hammersmith (Mar 1, 2005)

You write more fluently than I write French  

A "Baker's Dozen", or 13, is indeed associated superstitiously with ill-fortune in England. As for "Freya Day", I would not be at all surprised. After all, it comes directly after Thor's Day.


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## frenchteacher (Mar 1, 2005)

*Thor's day*

Thanks for the origin of Thursday. That's great !


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## Eledhwen (Mar 1, 2005)

Monday is for the moon, and Wednesday is for Woden, but I have no idea who Tuesday is dedicated to.

On trolls, Tolkien wrote in a letter


> I am not sure about Trolls I think they are mere 'counterfeits', and hence they return to mere (=just) stone images when not in the dark. But there are other sorts of Trolls beside these rather ridiculous, if brutal, Stone-trolls. ... when you make Trolls speak you are giving them a power, which in our world (probably) connotes the possession of a 'soul'. But I do not agree that my trolls show any sign of 'good', strictly and unsentimentally viewed. .... I do not say William felt pity - a word to me of moral and imaginative worth ... - and I do not think he showed Pity. I might not (if The Hobbit had been more carefully written ...) have used the expression 'poor little blighter', just as I should not have called the troll _William_. But I discerned no pity even then, and put in a plain caveat. Pity must restrain one from doing something immediately desirable and seemingly advantageous. There is no more 'pity' here than in a beast of prey yawning or lazily patting a creature it could eat, but does not want to, since it is not hungry.


I hope this gives you more insight into Tolkien's Trolls.

The Number 13: In the UK, You will find some people will not go out of their own homes on a Friday that falls on the 13th day of the month, in case some misfortune befalls them. I have heard it is worse in America, with tower blocks not having a 13th floor (in name, anyway). I have no idea why this is so.

And by the way, I find your English is fluent enough to understand, and it will get better and better as you practice.


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## Hammersmith (Mar 1, 2005)

I have heard Tuesday explained as an old English god, "Tiw", whose own name stems from the "Deiwos" (literally, "sky's light, light of the daytime heavens"), an ancient Indo-European word that gave rise both to Zeus and the latin "deus". Regardless, if you accept that explanation, Tuesday is "Tiw's Day".

What interests me is how Western European languages vary between their own translations of the latin or prelatin words, and their own more modern translations. For example, modern German uses Montag and Deinstag for the first two days of the week, both rather similar to either English or the historic roots. It then goes off the scale with "Mittwoch", literally "Midweek"....I guess maybe they weren't big Woden fans  

A cookie for whoever can tell me why Sunday has its name?


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## Flame of Udûn (Mar 2, 2005)

Friday is actually based on Frigga, not Freya.


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## OldTomBombadil (Mar 2, 2005)

Don't forget Thursday, the day the Germans call "Donnerstag" (Thunderday). This day was named after Thor, the god of Thunder.



Hammersmith said:


> A cookie for whoever can tell me why Sunday has its name?


I confess that I didn't know how Sunday got its name (Sonntag in German) other than that it obviously has something to do with the Sun. I went to Ask Jeeves to learn more: 



> From prehistoric times to the close of the fifth century of the Christian era, the worship of the sun was dominant...
> 
> In the year 321, Constantine the Great ruled that the first day of the week, 'the venerable day of the sun', should be a day of rest. The sun's old association with the first day is responsible for the fact that the Lord's Day of Christianity bears the pagan name of Sunday.


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## baragund (Mar 2, 2005)

frenchteacher said:


> An other idea : "burrahobbit" is a port manteau word as in Alice in Wonderland and especially in "Jabberwocky". I develop this idea rather.



The Troll referring to Bilbo as a "burrahobbit" shows that he was not familiar with Hobbits. This strikes me as another indicator of the Troll's ignorance.


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## frenchteacher (Mar 2, 2005)

Thank you for your suggestions. It seems that the origin of the names of the week are Anglo-Saxon for Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday. Tuesady from "Tyr". Wednesday from " Woden". Thursday from "Thor". Friday from "Freya". But there is a confusion between Freya and Fridda. The other names of the week are issued from latin : monday from moon, saturday from saturne ( = chronos) and sunday from sun. On mythology related to the sun, there is so much to say. For myself I read "Mircea Eliade" or "Laurence Gardner".
To return to Bilbo, I think that I will write in my book that it is not a coincidence if the company leaves on Thursday,- THORïn leaves on THOR's day - i.e. hundred years and a week after the death of his father -THRaïn- told by Gandalf. And grandfather's name is THROR. 
Thank you *Eledhwen* for the Tolkien's letter : in France "The letters of Tolkien" are not translated, perhaps in the middle of the year 2005. But I have them in English as ebooks. 
I even bought English books on Tolkien : "The origins of Tolkien's Middle-earth for DUMMIES", "A Guide to Tolkien", "The Road to middle-earth", and others.
Over all I have an English version of the "Hobbit". Fortunately that I have an English version ! I will tell you that in the French translation it is said that Bilbo is 25 (_sic_) years old when he leaves for the adventure.

Have a good day !

French Teacher.


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## Eledhwen (Mar 2, 2005)

Hammersmith said:


> I have heard Tuesday explained as an old English god, "Tiw", whose own name stems from the "Deiwos" (literally, "sky's light, light of the daytime heavens"), an ancient Indo-European word that gave rise both to Zeus and the latin "deus". Regardless, if you accept that explanation, Tuesday is "Tiw's Day".


I'm more familiar with the Iron Age gods than the Anglo Saxon ones, so I did a search and found this: "The Romans called Tuesday dies Martis or day of Mars after their own war god. So when the Germanic people accepted the Roman week, they replaced the Roman war god with the Germanic one, which gave us Tiwes-daeg or the day of Tiw, which became the modern English Tuesday."


> A cookie for whoever can tell me why Sunday has its name?


Shucks! Missed it.


baragund said:


> The Troll referring to Bilbo as a "burrahobbit" shows that he was not familiar with Hobbits. This strikes me as another indicator of the Troll's ignorance.


Indeed, it is the general ignorance of Hobbits outside of The Shire that made Gandalf think of sending Bilbo on Thorin's expedition.[/quote]


frenchteacher said:


> I will tell you that in the French translation it is said that Bilbo is 25 (sic) years old when he leaves for the adventure.


  That is so sloppy! It's no wonder Tolkien was so scathing about the translation of his works. From memory, I seem to remember from his letters that the Swedish translator was the one he was least impressed with.


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## frenchteacher (Mar 9, 2005)

Hello.
It is maybe not the right thread, but I have a question. Only English persons are able to answer. I think there is a real problem in the French translation of Bilbo.
This is my question : "The yells and yammering, croaking, jibbering and jabbering; howls, growls and curses; shrieking and skriking, that followed were beyond description." In this phrase are ALL the words a meaning ? If some have not, am I right to say yhat Tolkien invented words and played with the phonetics to create strange words. If Tolkien invented words it is to prove that the Gobelins are barbars and they transform themselves into a big yell.
Thanks


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## frenchteacher (Mar 9, 2005)

Sorry, but I have an other problem.
When goblins slipped "soft shoes" to run behind the compagny, are these shoes "magic" ? 
Thanks


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## Flame of Udûn (Mar 10, 2005)

frenchteacher said:


> Hello.
> It is maybe not the right thread, but I have a question. Only English persons are able to answer. I think there is a real problem in the French translation of Bilbo.
> This is my question : "The yells and yammering, croaking, jibbering and jabbering; howls, growls and curses; shrieking and skriking, that followed were beyond description." In this phrase are ALL the words a meaning ? If some have not, am I right to say yhat Tolkien invented words and played with the phonetics to create strange words. If Tolkien invented words it is to prove that the Gobelins are barbars and they transform themselves into a big yell.
> Thanks


Tolkien did not invent any of those words, though "jibbering" is usually spelt with a "g", and "skriking" is northern British slang for "crying". It might be from Norwegian "skrik", to scream.


frenchteacher said:


> Sorry, but I have an other problem.
> When goblins slipped "soft shoes" to run behind the compagny, are these shoes "magic" ?
> Thanks


No.


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## frenchteacher (Mar 10, 2005)

Thanks.
I did not find in my dictionary all these words.

For the "soft shoes", the french tranlation connotes "magic shoes" : gobelins don't make noise because of these shoes.

Have a good day.


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## Eledhwen (Mar 12, 2005)

You might learn a lot more about British English than the dictionary can tell you, by looking at www.bbc.co.uk/voices website.


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## Hobbit-GalRosie (Apr 21, 2005)

It's wonderful to hear from someone so interested in Tolkien and involved in a truly learned endeavor. It's a shame to hear how the translators botch things up though.

I'd like to point out that T.A. Shippey wrote _The Road to Middle-Earth_ before the History of Middle-Earth series was published, and in his later book _J.R.R. Tolkien: The Author of the Century_ he said something to the effect that he had put forth some theories about Tolkien's inspiration and the background history of Middle-Earth that turned out not to be true. I haven't read the earlier book yet but since the author himself mentioned that I felt it only fair to warn you that there might be some things in there that it would be best to take "with a grain of salt" if you see what I mean, or let's just say don't rely too heavily on Shippey's speculations.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Apr 22, 2005)

Hammersmith said:


> A cookie for whoever can tell me why Sunday has its name?



A cookie? One lousy cookie for all this info I'm giving you at http://www.12x30.net/origin.html ???!! You owe me one of every kind of pie there is! (And I'll take extras of pumpkin, strawberry, lemon, and mince!) 

Barley


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## Ardamir the Blessed (Jun 4, 2005)

LOTR, Appendix F, II - 'On Translation':


> But Orcs and Trolls spoke as they would, without love of words or things; and their language was actually more degraded and filthy than I have shown it. I do not suppose that any will wish for a closer rendering, though models are easy to find. Much the same sort of talk can still be heard among the orc-minded; dreary and repetitive with hatred and contempt, too long removed from good to retain even verbal vigour, save in the ears of those to whom only the squalid sounds strong.


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## Shireman D (Jun 5, 2005)

Flame of Udûn said:


> Friday is actually based on Frigga, not Freya.


 
But as they are the same goddess there is not really much of a distinction is there? see Carylon R (1981) Guide to the Gods pp 227 ff


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## Alatar (Jun 5, 2005)

Ardamir the Blessed said:


> But Orcs and Trolls spoke as they would, without love of words or things; and their language was actually more degraded and filthy than I have shown it. I do not suppose that any will wish for a closer rendering, though models are easy to find. Much the same sort of talk can still be heard among the orc-minded; dreary and repetitive with hatred and contempt, too long removed from good to retain even verbal vigour, save in the ears of those to whom only the squalid sounds strong.


He dosn't seem toi have anytime for the foul mouthed, does he.


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## Eledhwen (Jun 5, 2005)

Profanity-dotted speech just slows the message down, even in anger. I am constantly trying to rid my speech of unnecessary superlatives such as 'you know', 'I mean', and 'basically' which all have the same effect; but they creep back in where they're not wanted. I can easily see that a wordsmith like Tolkien would see all such speech as unnecessary clutter at the best, and a foul misuse of language at the worst.


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## jallan (Aug 4, 2006)

frenchteacher said:


> As for the trolls I compare them to ogres : the ogre of Tom Thumb, but Bettelheim in The Uses of Enchantment - in french _Psychanalyse du conte de fées_ - refers to _Jack the killer of giants.
> _Am I right about these explanations ?


_Troll_ was an Old Norse word referring to any sort of evil, monstrous, uncanny being, especially to giants. _Troll_ entered into English with translations of Norse folk tales and translations of Norse mythology. French _ogre_ indeed corresponds to it in meaning.

In more recent Danish and Swedish folklore _troll_ refers more vaguely to any kind of uncanny being, often especially little people, whence the small blue, long-haired, rubberish trolls one can sometimes buy as ornaments or toys.


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## jallan (Apr 25, 2007)

Eledhwen said:


> I'm more familiar with the Iron Age gods than the Anglo Saxon ones, so I did a search and found this: "The Romans called Tuesday dies Martis or day of Mars after their own war god. So when the Germanic people accepted the Roman week, they replaced the Roman war god with the Germanic one, which gave us Tiwes-daeg or the day of Tiw, which became the modern English Tuesday.


The use of a seven-day cycle appears to be of Semitic origin. Perhaps originally there were festivals at new-moon, half-moon, and full-moon intervals which would have meant a festival approximately every seven days, and this was regularized in much the same fashion as in the current western calendar the months have been regularized and no longer correspond to the actual phases of the moon.

An obvious connection would have been made with the seven moving stars, that is the sun, the moon, and the planets Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn. Certainly the gods connected with each of these bodies in Mesopotamia tradition correspond to the gods connected with the planets in Greek and Roman tradition, and these are the same gods after whom days of the week were named. Note: the Greeks and Romans had no week as part of their calendar, but weekday names using the names of pagan gods appear in early Christian literature, presumably indicating a borrowing in astrology from some Semitic source, probably Phoenician.

The gods of the five planets in Mesopotamian tradition were Nergal (for Mars), Nabu (for Mercury), Ishtar (for Venus), Marduk (for Jupiter), and Ninurta (for Saturn). Nabu as god of scribes and writing corresponds to the classical Hermes/Mercuy, Ishtar corresponds to Aphrodite/Venus, Nergal (a death god but also an archer god and war god) can be approximately equated with Ares/Mars, and Marduk (as supreme god) equates with Zeus/Jupiter. Only Ninurta (a god of agriculture and war), the god of the last day of the week, doesn't fit. But since we know from Hebrew Biblical tradition that the last day of the week belonged to God, it is reasonable that some Semites would apply this day (the Sabbath) to El, the supreme god of the Semitic pantheon, a god identified with the Greek god Cronos and the Latin god Saturn (and also a name for God in the Jewish Bible).

Mesopotamian: Sun, Moon, Nergal, Nabu, Marduk, Ishtar, Ninurta
Presumed Phoenician: Sun, Moon, Reshpu (a god of plague and war), Thoth, Hadad, Ashtart, El
Greek: Sun, Moon, Apollo or Ares, Hermes, Zeus, Aphrodite, Cronos
Roman: Sun, Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus, Saturn

This astrological week must have been recognized by the Germanic people who used their native god names as translations for the Latin names.

Old English: Sun, Moon, Tîw, Woden, Thunor, Frîa, Saturn
Old Norse: Sun, Moon, Týr, Óðin, Thór, Frigga, Saturn

Saturn was probably retained unchanged because there was no native god who could be easily equated with Saturn/Cronos/El. (Or possibly a native deity obscure to us with a name similar to _Saturn_ was intended here.)

It seems unlikely that Christian churchmen would have applied the names of the Latin planetary gods to the names of the week and then still later have used the names of the Germanic gods. It is easier to accept that the astrological seven-day week had an independent existence.


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## Eledhwen (Apr 26, 2007)

jallan said:


> Mesopotamian: Sun, Moon, Nergal, Nabu, Marduk, Ishtar, Ninurta
> Presumed Phoenician: Sun, Moon, Reshpu (a god of plague and war), Thoth, Hadad, Ashtart, El
> Greek: Sun, Moon, Apollo or Ares, Hermes, Zeus, Aphrodite, Cronos
> Roman: Sun, Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus, Saturn
> ...


This is fascinating! In an attempt to seive out the Saxon I looked up the Welsh and Cornish weekdays to see what similarities I could find. W=Sadwrn and C=Sadorn seem to be lenited forms of Saturn, which adds weight to the assumption that there was no local matching deity, unless said deity's name was spookily similar. (both Scottish and Irish Gaelic have a 'th' Saturn. I found these on a useful multilingual reference page here.)

The Latin sun and moon were there (W=Sul, Llun; C=Sul, Lun), and probably Mars and Mercury too (W=Mawrth, Mercher; C=Meurth, Mergher); but Thursday and Friday are a mystery: (W=Iau, Gwener; C=Yow, Gwener). You seem to know what you're talking about, Jallan; any ideas? 

*Edit* Got Yow - I think it's Iovis. Gwener seems too far removed from Veneris though; and Breton has the same word, so maybe a local deity, close enough in name to the latin to be understood, slipped through.

I personally like the Shire version:
SHIRE, Meaning 
SATURDAY Stars of Varda (Sterday) 
SUNDAY Sun
MONDAY Moon 
TUESDAY Two trees of Valinor (Trewsday)
WEDNESDAY Heavens (Hevensday)
THURSDAY Sea (Mersday)
FRIDAY Valar (Highday)

and as I can't think of even the lamest connection to Trolls, maybe a moderator would like to split this thread? This is too interesting to drop just yet.


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## jallan (Apr 27, 2007)

Eledhwen said:


> *Edit* Got Yow - I think it's Iovis. Gwener seems too far removed from Veneris though; and Breton has the same word, so maybe a local deity, close enough in name to the latin to be understood, slipped through.


Yes "Iau" and "Yow" are certainly "Jovis".

As for _Gwener_, remember that _v_ in Latin was originally pronounced [w]. But the change from [w] to [v] which occurred in continental Latin did not occur in British Latin and therefore the Latin name _Venus_ (genitive _Veneris_) would be in Britain still be pronounced somewhat as if spelled in modern English as _Wenus_ (genitive _Weneris_). In Welsh and Breton a word which formerly began with _w_ has its initial sound strengthened to _gw_. Accordingly we find _Gwener_ from _Veneris_.

Compare the 5th century British name something like _Vortigernus_ with its medieval Welsh counterpart _Gwrtheyrn_. And Latin _vallum_ produces English _wall_ but Welsh _gwawl_.


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## Eledhwen (Apr 27, 2007)

jallan said:


> As for _Gwener_, remember that _v_ in Latin was originally pronounced [w]. In Welsh and Breton a word which originally began with _w_ has its initial sound strengthened to _gw_. Accordingly we find _Gwener_ from _Veneris_.


_Eledhwen sulkily deconstructs hastily erected shrine to her new Celtic deity _

Thanks Jallan! I shall add that piece of linguistic info to my armoury (though 'holster' would hold my present knowledge). I am particularly fond of the minor British languages and wish I had the opportunity to learn them better.

And as for the trolls, I think they sound like they come from Catford! A London accent immortalised in the Barron Knights' version of the Smurfing song (from 'A Taste of Aggro').


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## PaigeSinclaire88 (Dec 16, 2016)

Welcome, Frenchmen!  

Personally, I find the trolls accents to be depending on the type of the troll and where theyre from. I find the dialect of most of the trolls to be very Manchester, England. But some of the other ones seem very Scottish. 

Fun fact: James Macavoy (my favorite actor) is from Scotland and in "filth" he uses his scottish accent very heavily, as thats where the story takes place. In "shameless" the British tv series his character is from Manchester, England and the accent is (to me anyways) seems to be somewhere between a strong dialect of the two. 

I've met people from different parts from England during my time working retail and I normally am able to pin point the dialect of where they hail from. It's like a talent at this point lol because so many of my friends use it as a parlor trick with me. I've unfortunately have never been to the UK and I cant tell most other accents from around the world, mainly just the UK....I think I was British in a past life. lol.


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