# Contraception and Population Control in Arda



## Celebthôl (Mar 11, 2003)

*Over or Under populations (i dunno you come up with a better title!!)*

The scenario and question:

How did Elves and the people of Numenor not over populate as they lived long years, i mean they obviously had sex but there was no contraception so how did they not over populate?

Thoughts please...

(p.s. Thanx Turgon)


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## YayGollum (Mar 11, 2003)

I don't know. I wondered about that a while ago. I would think that at least elves would be all over the place. oh well. Maybe since they live so long and they get so wise, lots of them figured out that kids are just too much of a pain.


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## Celebthôl (Mar 11, 2003)

Yeah but you cant stop nature by getting fed up (last i checked anyway )


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## YayGollum (Mar 11, 2003)

Oh, you can't stop nature, can you? You've never heard of bachelors? Come on, dude! You really think that those elves were so brainless that they all decided to have kids? Yikes! I thought they were usually portrayed in the bookses as being pretty smart! oh well.


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## Celebthôl (Mar 11, 2003)

no i mean they were married and lived in families etc, and they of course had sex, so why were there not many prenancyies? i mean Elrond was about what a few thousand years old and he had 3 children Sam was about 100 odd and had 11, if Elves had 11 kids per 100 years (which should have happened by all rights) then there should be loads...


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## FrankSinatra (Mar 11, 2003)

*Yes*

Strange one really.

Perhaps the population were widespread over the geography....and i doubt incest was rife in Elven families.


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## Ancalagon (Mar 11, 2003)

I have tweaked your title a little, for maximum effect


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## Celebthôl (Mar 11, 2003)

Thank you very much


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## Ancalagon (Mar 11, 2003)

It is worth digging a little deeper into HOME as Tolkien does cover matters of reproduction, and the difficulties therein for all races, including Dwarves, Elves, Men and Orcs.


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## Celebthôl (Mar 11, 2003)

Thanks again Anc, is it all contained within the HOME books? as i do not have them as of yet, an early x-mas pressy i hope


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## Confusticated (Mar 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Celebthôl_
> *no i mean they were married and lived in families etc, and they of course had sex, so why were there not many prenancyies? i mean Elrond was about what a few thousand years old and he had 3 children Sam was about 100 odd and had 11, if Elves had 11 kids per 100 years (which should have happened by all rights) then there should be loads...*


But elves did not have 11 kids each 100 years, in fact elves did not have 11 kids. There is no record of an elf having more children than Feanor who had 7.


Though humans might suppose that elves would go on having children since their bodies age so slowly, this is said (among other interesting things, as Ancalagon said; it is worth looking into HoMe) HoMe X, Morgoth's Ring:


> Doubtless they would retain for many ages the power of generation, if the will and the desire were not satisfied; but with the exercise of the power the desire soon ceases, and the mind turns to other things. The union of love is indeed to them great delight and joy, and the 'days of children', as they call them, remain in their memory as the most merry in life; but they have many other powers of body and of mind which their nature urges them to fulfil.


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## Turgon (Mar 12, 2003)

It's also worth noting that it was the habit of the elves not to produce children during times of war. Which would account for a dwindling elven population during the First Age and the latter part of the Second, especially amongst the Noldor. 

p.s. I believe Rangerdave has an interesting theory regarding elven contraception...


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## Celebthôl (Mar 12, 2003)

well then lets here it RD


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## Confusticated (Mar 12, 2003)

Here's a related thread with links to two more related threads. 

There you can find Rangerdave's theory. But pay no attention to my ingorant speculations, I didn't know better back then!


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## Celebthôl (Mar 12, 2003)

Thanx, most informative, and OMG i even i posted on that  how could i forget?


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## FrankSinatra (Mar 12, 2003)

*Age*

How did they age though?

I wonder what elf-children were like?

And elf babies?


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## Confusticated (Mar 12, 2003)

Gothmog gives that information in this thread, which also links to related threads.


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## elf boy (Mar 24, 2003)

Well, there were so many wars most of them probably got killed off. Anyway, Elves don't have as many children (or at least not as fast) as humans do... I guess that humans, being as they are mortal, have to get there kicks in while they have the chance.

(Although my friend says that the elves all just have ED)


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## Feanorian (Mar 24, 2003)

I believe there is some kind of process that takes a while to produce an elf. think about it Arwen was the last elf born in Middle Earth and she was how old at the time of the War of The Ring? I think that having a child took alot of energy such as Feanor who took so much energy from his mother that she did not have the will to live anymore. The Elves did not just spit kids out, accept oddly for Feanor, who had many sons.


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## Inderjit S (Mar 25, 2003)

Arwen wasn't the last Elf to be born in M-E. The Silvan Elves for example, achieved a huge population surge after their huge losses in the Alliance. I imagine Legolas was a lot younger then Arwen as were Haldir and many other Elves.


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## Feanorian (Mar 25, 2003)

I dont agree, I am almost positive of the fact that Arwen was the last elf born in M-E. I imagine Legalos was very old because he was the son of the King and in that realm that king would never change unless he handed it down or was killed. I will try and look for the passage that talks about Arwen.


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## ~*Belmir*~ (Mar 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by gondorian45 _
> *I believe there is some kind of process that takes a while to produce an elf. think about it Arwen was the last elf born in Middle Earth and she was how old at the time of the War of The Ring? I think that having a child took alot of energy such as Feanor who took so much energy from his mother that she did not have the will to live anymore. The Elves did not just spit kids out, accept oddly for Feanor, who had many sons. *


 
Well, judging from Gothmog's quotes, I think the reason Elves don't have many children is because of long it takes for an Elfling to grew up. If 100-200 yrs. is correct I can't see how any Elf would want too many children and end up caring for them for over 400 yrs! Besides after three kids, the parents would be a bit older and they start thinking of their home and surroundings and just taking care of their children, not sex or more children. Plus many Elves are slain, like Elrond had three children, his sons were slain and now he only has Arwen. But I also think that Elves are like any mortal when they reach a certian age producing children has a lot more risks and would take more strength and will form the mother when giving birth. And who has ever heard of a 'friendly' elf?


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## Beleg (Mar 26, 2003)

> like Elrond had three children, his sons were slain and now he only has Arwen



Mate you need to cheek the books again. Nowhere did Tolkien mentioned that Elrond's sons were slain.


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## ~*Belmir*~ (Mar 26, 2003)

Er... bad example! Not the point! I'm sure plenty of Elves die in wars, right? Oh please! Just shoot me and take away the humiliation(sp?)!


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