# silmarils



## pelado315 (Mar 5, 2009)

Hullo everyone! 

I'm kind of new around here and this is my first thread.

I was talking with a friend of mine about the Silmarillion, and we were discussing the silmarils' shape.

Neither of us has information or evidence to back up our arguments, because (I believe) the silmarils' shape is never implied in the book. I think they had an spherical shape.

What do you think? 
Is there any reference in the book regarding the silmarils' shape?

Is there any possiblity that they were in fact spheres or am I very wrong?

I don't know why I imagine them shaped like spheres but there is no evidence (I believe) that they are not.

My friend says they are shaped like diamonds.

Please share your knowledge,

Martin from Argentina.

​


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## Illuin (Mar 6, 2009)

Hi Martin,

I would start by going right to the source. Tolkien himself illustrated the Silmarils below:


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## Withywindle (Jul 17, 2009)

That is how Tolkien _drew _them; but remember that Tolkien had such an unusual stylised form of art, and especially in this instance as he depicted them in the form of a heraldic crest, that we shouldn´t take this illustration as a true representation of how even he himself imagined them. There is, of course, no description offered in the texts as to shape.

Perhaps if there are any optics physicists in the forum they might offer us a model based upon the refractory qualities necessary to imprison the light of the Two Trees within them!

As to size, their great importance and influence seems to demand that we imagine them as very large gemstones, although we know form Beren that one could fit into a human hand. The fact that they were set in the Nauglamir and were worn elegantly by Luthien would suggest that they were not very large at all. I seem to remember an artist´s depiction of them as small, marble-sized gemstones, and somehow the brilliant fire which he drew emanating from such small objects seemed more impressive than if he had drawn them as large stones.


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## Gothmog (Jul 17, 2009)

Withywindle,

One point. _They_ were not set in the Nauglamir, only the one that Beren took from the crown of Morgoth. However, in terms of size they are not likely to be of very large since it says in the Silmarillion Chapter 7 Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor


> for though at great feast Fëanor would wear them, blazing on his brow,


 I doubt that he would have worn all three on his brow if they were each of a great size. However, the radiance from them would probably make them seem to be larger than their actual dimentions.

As for shape, there is no description I know of. Illuin has, I feel, given the best answer available to this by showing how Tolkien drew them in heraldic crests.


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## Withywindle (Jul 18, 2009)

Good pont Gothmog, of course it was only the one silmaril set in in the Nauglamir: I really must re-read the book! Your reference to Feanor's wearing them on his brow is a very good indication that they were actually quite small, or at best medium-sized.

I am just looking again at Tolkien´s illustration, and of course the other three crests all incorporate a silmaril motif owing to the central importance of the silmarils in the lives and fates of the three characters represented. In each crest the silmaril motif is very different, the one from the other and all from the crest showing the three silmarils; with perhaps the representation in the crest of Beren bearing closest resemblance to the drawing of the silmarils, but, even then, not identical. This reinforces my point that Tolkien's artistic license makes his illustrations a poor guide as to what even he himself really imagined his creations to look like.


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## Gothmog (Jul 18, 2009)

I agree that it is not a very good guide but it however the best available. Looking at the drawings does give us a point of reference to work from in discussing possibilities of the actual shape of the Silmarils.

To me it seems that Tolkien viewed the gems to be circular or very slightly oval and faceted. As for their size, I would expect them to be no larger than 2 or at the most 3 inches maximum (allowing for the 7 foot hight given for Elves and Men of that time). My reason for this size is the need for one of them to be completely enclosed by a human hand as shown by Beren's action when leaving Morgoth's lair.



> As he closed it in his hand, the radiance welled through his living flesh, and his hand became as a shining lamp;


I could of course by over-estamating size of the jewel or under-estermating the capacity of Beren's hand.


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## Gothmog (Jul 21, 2009)

I hope that I have not caused this thread to die. I was looking forward to other's views on the question.


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## childoferu (Jul 21, 2009)

well gothmog, how do you think they felt, were they typically always cool to the touch or maybe warm, maybe you even_ felt_ different when you possess them, hmm...


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## Prince of Cats (Jul 21, 2009)

You know, somehow I came to believe they were tear shaped. I never thought twice about the form of them before


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## Withywindle (Jul 21, 2009)

I was musing how odd it is that Tolkien never provided a better description of the Silmarils, given their huge importance in the events of the early history of ME. But then I thought, what else could he do? The nature of the Silmarils and the Light that they had within in them is one of the most abstract things in all of fiction/myth.

We are told that their beauty was so great, so sublime that it was beyond the art of all the Valar; provoked an uncontrolable lust in Melkor; led Feanor and a large part of the Noldor to a suicidal vengeance; brought the downfall of Thingol. Few objects in any mythology have had such an efect on the world, its inhabitants, and the gods themselves. 

But whereas the effects and influence of other objects of great power, such as the One Ring itself are comprehendible, or at least imaginable, those of the Silmarils is totally beyond our imagination. Both author and reader alike are incapable of describing or depicting them because their nature is so alien to anything in human experience.

This should make us look in wonder once again at the genius of Tolkien: to draw us into a story which revolves around objects that neither he nor we can even imagine.


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## childoferu (Jul 21, 2009)

Withywindle said:


> I was musing how odd it is that Tolkien never provided a better description of the Silmarils, given their huge importance in the events of the early history of ME. But then I thought, what else could he do? The nature of the Silmarils and the Light that they had within in them is one of the most abstract things in all of fiction/myth.
> 
> We are told that their beauty was so great, so sublime that it was beyond the art of all the Valar; provoked an uncontrolable lust in Melkor; led Feanor and a large part of the Noldor to a suicidal vengeance; brought the downfall of Thingol. Few objects in any mythology have had such an efect on the world, its inhabitants, and the gods themselves.
> 
> ...


 
Even though I agree the excellent points you make Withywindle, you kinda throw me off with the "...beyond the art of all the Valar..." and the "...led Feanor and a large part of the Noldor to a suicidal vengeance..." ???

1. I was thinking that the Silmarils were second-most beautiful compared to the art of the Valar, I mean, the light that made them so beautiful originally the trees that Yvanna wrought

2. In reading, I was under the impression that is was mostly the slaying of his father that Feanor down his ruinous path, and as for the larger part of the Noldor, weren't they just misguided by Feanor himself, for the text does say the power in his words were unmatched


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## Aernil (Jan 7, 2010)

_Then he began a long and secret labour, and he summoned all his lore, and his power, and his subtle skill; and at the end of all he made the Silmarils.
As three great Jewels they were in form. But not until the End, when Fëanor shall return who perished ere the Sun was made, and sits now in the Halls of Awaiting and comes no more among his kin; not until the Sun passes and the Moon falls, shall it be known of what substance they were made. *Like the crystal of diamonds it appeared*, and yet was more strong than adamant._

_JRRT, Quenta Silmarillion_

Theorizing: it would be almost impossible to make a perfectly round jewel from a diamond because of the crystalline structure, let alone several.


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## Bucky (Jan 14, 2010)

I always pictured them as rectangular, about as big as when you put your index finger & thumb together and naturally, cut like diamonds.......

But that's just me except for the diamond part.

I think if Tolkien drew them round, then he must've meant they were round - he certainly had enough talent to draw a rectangle or triangle for example had he meant that to be their shape. 
It's not like he was trying to draw something difficult like a dragon that looks too much like a cat (Smaug). A circle is a circle is a circle.
And diamonds do indeed come in circular shapes.


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## Astrance (Jan 14, 2010)

Well, I always pictured the Silmarils of oval shape.

But maybe Tolkien drew them round because this shape is a symbol of perfection. After all, he never clearly described them, so why wouldn't he represent the idea of a Silmaril rather than a Silmaril itself ?


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## Confusticated (Oct 21, 2010)

_As three great jewels they were in form_... 

I imagine them about maybe a inch and a half (about four centimeters) in diameter. I also imagine them as perfectly round smooth spheres. Perhaps that is because I think of that as being a stronger shape than having edges. Don't know if that is true or no, it's just mechanical intuition. I also see the light within them as so brilliant that you don't need edges to reflect it and make is sparkly. 

Not saying that is how they are, its just what I imagine.

By the way, real nice of Varda to make it so mortals cannot touch them. WTF is up with that. Beren is special because he was the first rugged dude Luthien ever seen - so he gets to touch them? What about any other mortals who might of been excellent individuals!


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