# What Moral Values?



## LadyMeg (Aug 11, 2002)

*To All,

All the books and even the movies have morals to them, for me that nothing is impossible, to those who wish for things hard enough.

Isn't it said the Universe gives you what you need, not what you want in life, also the hobbits seemed the least likely people to have the ring of power, and Frodo bravely takes the heavy burden of the ring, while his friend Samwise is the true friend that wants to bare the burden also, seeing the ring harm his friend is too much for Samwise, and he would rather take the responsibility on himself, than see what it is doing to Frodo.

True friendship at it's best! and so inspiring as well Arragon and Legolas have not given up on finding Frodo again but realise they have their own course in history to follow and must rescue the other two from those terrible Orcs, this book is so exciting yet so much heart in what it says.

What morals do you feel The Lord Of The Rings is trying to say!

Your Kind Regards: LadyMeg*


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## Ariana Undomiel (Aug 12, 2002)

There are so many morals portrayed in the Lord of the Rings Trilogy. Friendship, loyalty, honesty, selflessness, devotional love, obedience, humility - these are just to name a few. Also one of the overall themes is that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. 

~Ariana


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## HLGStrider (Aug 13, 2002)

That life is precious, I suppose, even the smallest lives.


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## pohuist (Aug 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ariana Undomiel _
> *. Also one of the overall themes is that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
> 
> ~Ariana *



You took the words right out of my mouth. I think that's the most important moral of the story. (the rest are everpresent in many other literary works)


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## Gothmog (Aug 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ariana Undomiel _
> *Also one of the overall themes is that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
> 
> ~Ariana *



This is an interesting point but I ask one question of you. Who in Middle-earth had 'Absolute Power'?

The Elves obviously did not and nor did Gandalf who was of the same kindred as Sauron. The One Ring could not have given Sauron much more power than he had in himself or he could have chalanged the Valar themselves. If that were the case then the Valar would have had to return to Middle-earth to deal with Sauron not send weakened Maia to do the job. Infact, going through all the books None in Arda had 'Absolute Power'. Not even Melkor who in the begining was the Greatest of the Ainur.

So I would say that it is not Power that corrupts but desire of Power that does so and it is the desire of absolute power that corrupts absolutely. This is shown by the fact that all who were corrupted by the ring had no real power to corrupt them only the desire for the power of the Ring and this is the moral point about corruption in the Book.


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## Grond (Aug 14, 2002)

Yessssss! What Gothmog said!!


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## Ravenna (Aug 14, 2002)

As well as 'Nothing lasts for ever'
For me another truth gained from the book, if not actually a moral is that you can't turn the clock back. Evil has been vanquished, yes, but in doing that, you still have to deal with the after effects, getting rid of the root cause is great, but that does not mean that anything can actually be undone and we have to make the best of what's left.
That didn't come out sounding quite right, but I don't think I can do any better at the moment, hope you get my meaning.


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## pohuist (Aug 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Gothmog _
> *
> Infact, going through all the books None in Arda had 'Absolute Power'. Not even Melkor who in the begining was the Greatest of the Ainur.
> 
> So I would say that it is not Power that corrupts but desire of Power that does so and it is the desire of absolute power that corrupts absolutely. this is the moral point about corruption in the Book. *



Valid point, however, 'absolute' is a subjective term, depending on who's talking. From the perspective of many LOTR's characters, total control over ME equals absolute power.


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## Lantarion (Aug 15, 2002)

Indeed, but nobody had that power! Sauron did not control eastern, northern or southern Eriador, or the White Mountains. His grip did not reach out past the northern borders of Mirkwood, or the Iron Hills. I think the only areas he truly controlled were Southern Mirkwood, Mordor, (partially)Rhûn and (mostly) Harad. This is just MHO, btw.


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## Gothmog (Aug 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by pohuist _
> *
> 
> Valid point, however, 'absolute' is a subjective term, depending on who's talking. From the perspective of many LOTR's characters, total control over ME equals absolute power. *



Lantarion Has already well covered much of what I would say.

But to go further. In all of Tolkien's books, the one being in All Arda who came closest to having 'Absolute Power' was Manwe appointed 'King of Arda' by Iluvatar but he sought not Any power yet he had the greatest. Melkor Sought 'Absolute Power' and failed to gain it in his corruption (he did come close though). Sauron also sought absolute power and tricked the Elves into making the Elven Rings to gain it. He too failed in corruption.

In all cases of the One Ring corrupting others it was those who least wanted power that came off with the least harm. Even Frodo who was overcome at the end carried the Ring for many months without the desire of power and resisted until he was in the chamber of the Cracks of Doom before the Ring could overcome him. It was only those who desired power for whatever reason that that were in danger of being corrupted by the Ring. The wise among these would not take the Ring for any reason and the rest were corrupted by desire to weild it.


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## Walter (Aug 16, 2002)

I venture to say that there is no such thing as "absolute power", neither in this world nor in M-e. IMO there has to be taken the spatial as well as the timely component into consideration. No one ever had absolute power that was not limited spatially or timely, neither in this world nor in M-e.

But nonetheless the statement "Power corrupts" remains valid, in M-e as well as in this world, as we can see almost daily in the world of big politics as well as in many domestic areas or other communites...


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## Confusticated (Aug 16, 2002)

The greater the power, the greater the chances of currruption, because the temptation to abuse increases in proportion with that power.

What you say Walter, of no one having asbolute power: Being power that is not limited spatially or time wise;...not all would agree with that. But it really doesn't relate to the topic...just a side note.

I don't view LOTR as a story of morals, or even something wherein to look for them. I agree that is has examples of morals though. I just view LOTR/Middle-earth as something to be enjoyed, and for me looking for morals is not part of that enjoyment. I think you have all made good points though..


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## Walter (Aug 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Confusticated _
> What you say Walter, of no one having asbolute power: Being power that is not limited spatially or time wise;...not all would agree with that. But it really doesn't relate to the topic...just a side note.


LOL Confusticated, no problem 

I seldom make ANY statements that ALL agree with


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## Confusticated (Aug 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Walter _
> *
> LOL Confusticated, no problem
> 
> I seldom make ANY statements that ALL agree with  *




I agree


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## Walter (Aug 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Confusticated _
> I agree


Now, if you would change your username to "All", You could prove me wrong


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## Confusticated (Aug 16, 2002)

I'm affraid that would be a waste effort. Not because the cause isn't worthy but because that will still not prove you wrong. You said that you "seldom" make ANY statements that all agree with...this means that you have made statements that all agree with. 
Do you know what I'd have to go through to prove you wrong? Assuming that "all" means everyone at the forum, and "statements" mean only those posted here at the forum: I would have to prove that never once has ALL agree'd with a statement made by you.


Good thing I didn't PM the webmaster about a name change huh?


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## HLGStrider (Aug 16, 2002)

Oh brother...  

I don't think absoulute power corrupts absolutely because I believe that in an all powerful and yet still perfect God... Of course perfection would be a powerful thing...

I do think it is the lust for power. That is consuming...

Anyone ever read the Prince? I read it awhile ago... I remember it being vaguely interesting and sort of realavent. I couldn't quote it or anything, however.


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## Ariana Undomiel (Aug 17, 2002)

What I meant when I wrote down this quote "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts aboslutely" was that in a sense the ring in Middle Earth did represent the absolute power that could be achieved by those in Middle Earth unless there was intervention by a higher power. If Sauron regained it, he would be able to fully control Middle Earth unless the Valar did step in. Neither the elves nor the maia would have been able to stop him.

Also, this statement is absolutely true in the real world as well. Because no being that exists on this earth is perfect, it would be corrupted by absolute power. Only God can have absolute power and that is because he is Holy and without fault. He is perfect.

~Ariana


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## Lhunithiliel (Aug 17, 2002)

This is such a good topic !

I think that there can be found more than morals.
Yet, to me, the most important one is that GOOD and EVIL exist in every thing, creature and in Nature and in the Universe itself! 
One has to make a decision - which side to take! For noone is let just "sit with arms crossed" and not take sides. 

Sometimes my head aches when I try to understand where it all comes from - I'm speaking about those concepts that we have in our minds - concept about the world, about right or wrong, about the "homo sapiens" being the mightiest creature on this planet, about the existance of a supernatural force (some call it God)....

M-m-m! Too much philosophy!

From a humorous point of view, I think the moral of the whole story is "Never leave today's work for tomorrow!!!!".
Really, there a LOT of examples - so many, that I'd rather not start quoting, or I shall have to quote 2/3 of the books, at least!
But here is just one of them:
"If Isildur had destroyed the ring THEN, Sauron would have never returned LATER..... I guess......For who can really tell what is encoded in the "program" of our destiny?!


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## Walter (Aug 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Lhunithiliel _
> From a humorous point of view, I think the moral of the whole story is "Never leave today's work for tomorrow!!!!".


Hmmm, somehow I prefer: "Always leave for tomorrow what you could mess up today..."


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## Ceorl (Aug 17, 2002)

One thing to remember is that Tolkien was a devout Christian, so the morals portrayed in his books are greatly influenced by that.

One of the themes if not morals in his book is the fading of all that is good and the birth of the new. In fact the Quenta silmarillion ends thusly:



> Here ends the SILMARILLION.If it has passed from the high and the beautiful to darkness and ruin then that was of old the fate of Arda Marred; and if any change should come and the marring be ammended, Manwe and Varda may know : but they have not revealed it, and it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos



But the morals that strikes me most would be: "good will out".


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## Elu Thingol (Aug 18, 2002)

> _Posted by Walter_
> I venture to say that there is no such thing as "absolute power", neither in this world nor in M-e.



I am interested Walter, why do you think that Eru does not have absolute power?


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## HLGStrider (Aug 19, 2002)

Personally I'd say that Eru has all powers but does not choose to use them for that would be corruption... Not only does power corrupt but the use of power is corruption... if you get my meaning.


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## Walter (Aug 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Elu Thingol _
> I am interested Walter, why do you think that Eru does not have absolute power?


I did not say that.

I said "neither in this world nor in M-e..." 

Eru created the world - and Arda within it - in Tolkien's mythology, hence he is beyond those boundaries, as God is beyond this world, and both are not included in my statement...


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## Elu Thingol (Aug 21, 2002)

I see so another words you were saying that a regular man, elf, maiar, valar, can not have absolute power? I totally agree with you. But I still believe absolute power exists in ME because Eru has absolute power over ME.


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## Walter (Aug 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Elu Thingol _
> But I still believe absolute power exists in ME because Eru has absolute power over ME.


I would not dare to disagree on this one...


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## Eriol (Jul 23, 2003)

I think the most important morals are: 

the absolute value of _pity_, even when it seems the most foolish thing you can do; 

and NEVER GIVE UP!

Maybe it's me, but that's what I take out of the book more clearly.


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## Dáin Ironfoot I (Jul 23, 2003)

Do not forget racial equality and/or understanding. The story of Legolas and Gimli illustrates this the best.

There are so many, yet one that struck me the most was futility. The Elves, Men, and Dwarves, all had such great kingdoms, only to fall into ruin again. It is sad to think of the festive halls of Khazad-dum, and the wooded realm of Doriath, and the proud navies of Numenor; all of which were ended by evil. Its just sad... even Galadriel says we have fought the long defeat.

Another moral is unity is the key to survival. In the battle of Unnumbered tears, if it were not for the men's treachery, evil would have been conquered. If perhaps the Dwarves would have aided Gil-galad earlier, Eriador would not have fallen. I think that makes sense... most of the other morals have already been said, though CORRUPTION is a major one.


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## HLGStrider (Jul 22, 2005)

Bump. . .bringing up good old threads tonight.


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