# Fingolfin and Morgoth



## Celebthôl (Nov 20, 2002)

this was a passing thought i had whilst showering, could Fingolfin have defeated Morgoth? please post your thoughts as to why/why not.
I believe he could have done seeing as Morgoth could bleed and didnt Fingolfin just finish another battle when he challenged Morgoth
Also was Morgoth (when he had lost his powers) like Sauron in the movie? (visually anyway).

Thôl


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## Ithrynluin (Nov 20, 2002)

I don't understand your question - it's supposed to be hypothetical but we know the outcome of their battle already.
I say that Fingolfin's attempt was brave and daring, but I believe he couldn't have taken Morgoth.


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## Celebthôl (Nov 20, 2002)

well wasnt Fingolfin already tired from fighting and running? and he nearly beat Morgoth anyway!

Thôl


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## Anamatar IV (Nov 20, 2002)

Morgoth was in no way like Sauron. morgoth was the greatest of valar (before he was banished) and Sauron was a lowly maia ( ) I said fingolfin couldnt take Morgoth.

We saw the outcome...and even if it were under different circumstanes--even if there were no holes to trip on I'm sure Fingolfin wouldve been EASY pickins.


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## Celebthôl (Nov 20, 2002)

i mean did they look the same like when sauron fights in the fellowship of the ring scene does he look like morgoth did when he had the battle with Fingolfin? (would Fingolfin be able to beat sauron in a 1 on1?

Thôl


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## Confusticated (Nov 20, 2002)

If that big eagle would have picked up Fingolfin and lifted him up to Morgoth's big ugly head, then bright shinning Fingolfin could drive Ringil through Morgoth's eyeball and into his brain.


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## Ithrynluin (Nov 20, 2002)

What a nice picture you draw Nóm! 

"That big eagle" could have done many useful things,like fly Frodo to Mordor,but it's just not that simple. Lazy winged creature!


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## Celebthôl (Nov 20, 2002)

yeah thered be like no story!


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## Elfarmari (Nov 20, 2002)

If a couple mortal men could destroy Sauron's bodily form, I have not doubt Fingolfin could have done so; but only after Sauron had inveted much of his power into the ring. In the first age, it took Huan (was he a maia? if not, he was still a powerful spirit) to subdue Sauron in wolf form.


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## Anamatar IV (Nov 20, 2002)

but it didnt just take a few mortal men to overthrow sauron. It took an elven king and a Gondorean king STRAIGHT out of Numenor to do so. And they didnt even succeed since they both died.


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## Confusticated (Nov 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Celebthôl _
> *yeah thered be like no story! *


Would you say this to anyone who aswers that Fingolfin could do it? 
I don't think Fingolfin could destroy Morgoth, but I think it's possible.

What isn't possible.


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## Elfarmari (Nov 20, 2002)

my mistake, I had forgotten that Gil-galad was involved in the overthrow of Sauron. My point is that Fingolfin was much more powerful than any alive at the Last Alliance, and would have stood a much better chance of destroying Sauron's body.


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## krash8765 (Nov 20, 2002)

This is a very difficult topic, I would say if Fingolfin could wound Morgoth I dont see why he couldn't destroy him. Even though tolkien would never of let this happen I believe it is a possibility.


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## Celebthôl (Nov 21, 2002)

thats exactly wot i mean if he can bleed he can die
also
An elvish princeling against the single most powerful creature in ME is a pretty unequal set of competitors.
he was not the most powerful at this battle he had lost a good deal of his power (he was like saruman after he had lost his powers all he could do was talk/lie to corruped people although he was still mighty in physical power but had no magic (if that is the right word))

Thôl


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## Incánus (Nov 21, 2002)

I think that Fingolfin could have taken Morgoth. First of all Fingolfin was tired from a previous battle and secondly Morgoth wasn't the most powerful anymore. He had invested too much of his power in lies, deceit and corruption and thus lost much of his power. Fingolfin could never have destroyed him fully but I think that he could have harmed his physical presence enough to force his (much weakened) spirit from his body. Not to say that Tolkien intended this but it could have happened otherwise Morgoth would have destroyed him from the outset/ had a more active role in his designs before his fight with Fingolfin/ been more active after his fight with Fingolfin. So, yeah I think that with a few changed circumstances Fingolfin would have torn him to shreds.


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## Celebthôl (Nov 21, 2002)

so your telling me that if the entire might of the elves strove with melkor and chopped him into little bits then he still wouldnt be beaten?! i never meant killed but beaten as in his spirit leaves his body like saurons! i find this hard to believe!

Thôl


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## Celebthôl (Nov 21, 2002)

so he can be beaten then?! his physical form anyway which is what i mean! i never said killed in the question (though i said it later on sumwhere (i dont mean it there either)) just beaten, and i still think he can be

Thôl


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## Incánus (Nov 21, 2002)

Exactly my point. Morgoth's physical form could have been destroyed by Fingolfin but he would have risen again. However he still would have been beaten that one time. Not killed, defeated in battle.


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## Celebthôl (Nov 21, 2002)

coz he had just had a battle which his side had lost (i think), and there were craters every where! he had also ridden excedingly fast on his horse so he was rather tired out.

Thôl


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## Confusticated (Nov 21, 2002)

The craters were a result of Morgoth's weapon: I do not see why they should be excluded.
Here's a thread about Beren and Morgoth. 
Here's one that deals with hypothetical battle involving Gothmog. 

Yes, it is the fact that Fingolfin was able to wound Morgoth pretty good which causes me to believe that Fingolfin could have (in ideal circumstances) destroyed Morgoth. Destroyed his body that is though. There is no way he could have destroyed his entire being.


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## Celebthôl (Nov 21, 2002)

thank you we were not discussing killing him off totaly just defeating him in battle!


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## Confusticated (Nov 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Smeagol _
> If the entire might of the elves strove with Melkor and chopped him into little bits he would be weakened but not destroyed. *He would come back*. Even when Melkor is defeated in the War of Wrath, he is not dead. The Valar can only shut him out in the Void, but he actually recovers and returns. One of the Ainur can only be unmade by the Creator and no-one else.


If you are sure that his body could not be destroyed by Fingolfin (or even the entire might of the elves) what then do you mean when you say he would "come back"?


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## Elu Thingol (Nov 22, 2002)

I think it is rather obvious that Fingolfin could have possibly beaten Melkor. Yes Smeagol let's look at the text,



> that he took not the challenge willingly; for though his might was greatest of all things in this world, alone of the Valar he knew fear



I think this quote is a MAJOR indicator that Morgoth could have been defeated. If it was impossible for Fingolfin to defeat him then what did Morgoth have to fear? Morgoth was afraid of defeat. So if Morgoth thinks it is possible, then it is DEFINETLY possible.


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## Incánus (Nov 22, 2002)

indeed Fingolfin could have killed his physical form.


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## Gil-Galad (Nov 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *I don't understand your question - it's supposed to be hypothetical but we know the outcome of their battle already.
> I say that Fingolfin's attempt was brave and daring, but I believe he couldn't have taken Morgoth. *


Something extremely rare happens.
I think I agree with you 
By the way I think Fingolfin wounded Morgoth and that was the best think he could do.I doubt he had abilities to win the fight.


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## The Shadowlord (Nov 23, 2002)

If the lowly mortal Isildur could defeat Sauron, then surely teh great Elf Fingolfin could defeat Melkor?


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## Gil-Galad (Nov 30, 2002)

Isildur didn't destroy Sauron,he had to destroy the ring,but he didn't manage.
And something else:Fingolfin was fought with the most powerful Ainur,the one gifted with most abilities by Iluvatar.At the same time Sauron had lost many of his power throughout the years.
So I can't agree that we can compare Isildur vs Sauron with Fingolfin vs Melkor.


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## Ithrynluin (Nov 30, 2002)

Melkor also wasted and spent much of his native strength by the time of his duel with Fingolfin.


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## Orodreth (Dec 2, 2002)

Morgoth would definately win. But on the subject of Isildur, did he actually fight Sauron? _But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own._ It seems to me that Isildur wasn't like he was in the movie (blindly striking out with Narsil as Sauron was reaching for him). Doesn't it seem from the passage that he merely chopped off the hand of someone that other people defeated?


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## Ithrynluin (Dec 2, 2002)

I agree with that Orodreth, but isn't it strange that if Sauron was cast down that his body just lay there like that and Isildur just paraded by and cut the ring? That part somehow doesn't make sense to me.


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