# Orcs and Urukai.......



## redline2200 (Dec 13, 2002)

I have heard a lot of theories on how these two beings came into existence but what is the truth? Are orcs really distorted elves? If so then why are they such incredibly horrible fighters?(even merry and pippin and sam killed at least one in their first battles)
Are the urukai man and orc crossbreeds or is that just a theory?


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## Mablung (Dec 13, 2002)

Orcs were definatly Elves taken and corrupted by Melkor to begin with. The Uruks though I don't have a definitive answer for I think that they are bred with men but I can't find a quote to back that up unfortunatly. Orcs are also very dangerous fighters theres a reason that Mordor conquered so much with them.


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## Manwë Súlimo (Dec 13, 2002)

> but of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty. For who of the living has descended into the pits of Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor? Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes. For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar; and naught that had life of its own, not the semblance of life, could ever Melkor make after his rebellion in the Ainulindalë before the Beginning: so say the wise. And deep in their dark hearts the Orcs loathed the Master whom they served in fear, the maker only of their misery. This it may be was the vilest deed of Melkor, and the most hateful to Ilúvatar.


 The quote is from the Silmarillion and describes how they were created. And with why they can't fight well, I don't really know. Someone else will have to fill in that one. Maybe it is just the rule, like in movies, that badguys can't fight well. And the Uruk-Hai were bred from Dunland men and orcs.


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## Manwë Súlimo (Dec 13, 2002)

> Orcs are also very dangerous fighters


 It is not that they were dangerous fighters, it was just the sheer numbers of them that made the difference. Even during the first age under Melkor just a few men could take out many Orcs. It was just in numbers that they were strong.


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## Mablung (Dec 14, 2002)

I never said how they were dangerous. Of course numbers were their main role they had nothing else going for them really except for physical strength. Their weapons were shoddier they weren't as smart and except for the Uruk-Hais they couldn't stand sun light.


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## Húrin Thalion (Dec 14, 2002)

And also orcs were not the main strength of any black lord. They are in the Silmarillion not as much worth as balrogs, dragons or evil men. Also the enemies who fought fiercest in the war of the Ring were the men of Khand and Rhûn. The last who resisted Gondor were in fact southerners and not orcs. This is why Saruman crossed them, he wanted the malice and numbers of orcs with the strength of men in one creature.

Húrin Thalion


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## Anamatar IV (Dec 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Mablung _
> *except for the Uruks they couldn't stand sun light. *



I think you are confusing uruks with Uruk-hai. Entirely different things.



> Black Uruks from Mordor.



And of course the uruk-hai were from Isengard.


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## Mablung (Dec 14, 2002)

I always just used Uruks as a shortened form of Uruk Hai actually.


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## *Lady Arwen* (Dec 14, 2002)

Were the Uruk-hai bread in Isengard and the Uruks in Mordor.
I always thought they were the same thing


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## Anamatar IV (Dec 14, 2002)

Not the same thing at all. As I quoted before:



> Black Uruks from Mordor





> Here lie many that are
> not folk of Mordor. Some are from the North, from the Misty Mountains, if I
> know anything of Orcs and their kinds. And here are others strange to me.
> Their gear is not after the manner of Orcs at all!





> Upon their shields they bore
> a strange device: a small white hand in the centre of a black field; on the
> front of their iron helms was set an S-rune, wrought of some white metal





> 'S is for Sauron,' said Gimli. 'That is easy to read.'
> 'Nay!' said Legolas. 'Sauron does not use the Elf-runes.'
> 'Neither does he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or
> spoken,' said Aragorn. 'And he does not use white. The Orcs in the service
> ...



And Mablung: Uruk just means orc in the black language.


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## redline2200 (Dec 14, 2002)

thanx for all the help


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## Lantarion (Dec 14, 2002)

The thread Uruks vs. Uruk-hai has debated this subject for a very long time; I suggest to all who are interested to check it out. 
But Manwë and Mablung, I have to disagree with you on the lack of martial prowess of the Orcs. They are described in the Silmarillion as being terrible and strong and, as far as I have interpreted it, rather compentent, although lacking agility and finesse. And another thing that is a plus for the Orcs is their gear of war: their weapons were very often long, heavy spears with wide blades, which might very easily cut right through a warrior without heavy armour on; and the armour of the Orcs themselves was iron and metal, and very sturdy indeed; nothing to be scoffed at, I'd say. 
And just to prove that I own a copy of the SIlmarillion, here's a quote to back me up. 


> _From the Silmarillion: Of the Sindar_
> But the victory of the Elves was dear-bought. For those of Ossiriand were light-armed, and no match for the Orcs, who were shod with iron and iron-shielded and bore great spears with broad blades; and Denethor was cut off and surrounded upon the hill of Amon Ereb. There he fell and his nearest kin about him, before the host of Thingol could come to his aid.


Hope I helped. 

Welcome to the forum, Redline!


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## Tar-Elenion (Dec 14, 2002)

'Uruks' is simply an anglicization of Uruk-hai (ie Uruks is the Black Speech word 'uruk' with the English plural marker 's', Uruk-hai means something to the effect of 'Orc-folk').


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## Cian (Dec 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Anamatar IV: _
> *And Mablung: Uruk just means orc in the black language. *



More detailed, _uruk_ applied as a rule to the great soldier-orcs issuing out of both Mordor and Isengard.

IMO Sauron had _Uruk-hai_ because he had great soldier-orcs

¤


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## Mablung (Dec 15, 2002)

Then the smaller ones were just called plain old Orcs right?


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## Tar-Elenion (Dec 15, 2002)

"The lesser kinds were called, especially by the Uruk-hai, _snaga_ 'slave'."
LotR, App. F


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## aragil (Dec 16, 2002)

I can't believe I'm seeing such bold statements being bandied around. Especially after Lantarion has referenced _U vs U-h_. *Rubs eyes, sees bold statements are still there* I guess extremists never learn. Anybody interested in making up their own mind on an issue (rather than just being told what to believe) should look at _U vs U-h_ (referenced again for your convenience).


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## Cian (Dec 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by aragil _
> *I can't believe I'm seeing such bold statements being bandied around. Especially after Lantarion has referenced U vs U-h. *Rubs eyes, sees bold statements are still there* I guess extremists never learn. Anybody interested in making up their own mind on an issue (rather than just being told what to believe) should look at U vs U-h (referenced again for your convenience). *



I am posting my opinion Aragil ("IMO") 

The other sentence in my previous post might as well be a direct quote about what _uruk_ refers to (not "Uruks" or _Uruk-hai_). People can make up their minds about what that information means to them, or let me know if they think I've mis-represented the Appendix info in some way, or whatever.

But I still have an opinion in any case ... the fact that there's now a long thread (already linked before I got here) doesn't change my opinion  

¤


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## aragil (Dec 17, 2002)

I caught the 'IMO', and therefore didn't think you fell under the 'extremist' label, nor did I think your post was telling people what to think on the issue (although I dare say *I* know your opinion on the issue as well as anybody). In any case it's nice to see you back.


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