# When Gandalf dies...



## Sushi (Feb 2, 2005)

When Gandalf dies after he defeated the Balrog, then what happens to his ring (The Ring of Fire, or whatever it is called)?


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## Barliman Butterbur (Feb 2, 2005)

Sushi said:


> When Gandalf dies after he defeated the Balrog, then what happens to his ring (The Ring of Fire, or whatever it is called)?



An interesting question! I can only speculate, since Círdan the Shipwright had given it to him very early on, that it stayed with him right through the episode with the Balrog. Indeed, it may have been one of the weapons he used against it.

Barley


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## Hammersmith (Feb 2, 2005)

I suppose that could be some compelling evidence that he did not have a complete transfer to a new body, that his spirit did not leave permanently, but that his body was instead "recreated" around him or something, transformed in some way, since he keeps the ring.

Or maybe his new body simply picked the ring from the body of Gandalf the Grey when he was sent back in a new body. Presumably his corpse would still be left on the mountain.


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## Greenwood (Feb 2, 2005)

Sushi said:


> When Gandalf dies after he defeated the Balrog, then what happens to his ring (The Ring of Fire, or whatever it is called)?


Remember, Gandalf was recovered from the mountaintop by the eagle (Gwahir(sp?)) who was sent to look for him by Galadriel. I always assumed that when he died and was "sent back" it was in the sense that his "spirit" left his body and then his "spirit" was sent back to the same body (which would still be wearing the ring). Otherwise why would he need to be rescued from the mountaintop. Doesn't the eagle make some comment to Gandalf about his being "light as a feather" and if he dropped him, he thought Gandalf would just float? Doesn't Gandalf then say something alongs the lines of don't drop me! becuase he now felt life returning to his body? Anyway, that is my memory of the scene -- once again a check for the exact wording will have to wait until I get home to look at the text.


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## Morohtar (Feb 2, 2005)

I'd have to agree with Greenwood on this one. I'd say he just had an out-of-body experience.


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## Meselyn (Feb 2, 2005)

Gandalf (I think) wasn't physically there. He was there spiritually. He could just fight. Hey this is tolkien. He might have had the ring with him. Remember Gandalf says that eons went by after he beat the balrog.


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## Narsil (Feb 3, 2005)

Sushi said:


> When Gandalf dies after he defeated the Balrog, then what happens to his ring (The Ring of Fire, or whatever it is called)?



In _The Rings of Power and the Third Age_ in the Sil you are given the distinct impression that Gandalf had the ring when he took the ship from the Grey Havens and left Middle Earth. 

I think that when he fought the Balrog he was "reborn" in the same body and thereby kept his ring.


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## HLGStrider (Feb 3, 2005)

I always assumed Gandalf was refering to the Narya itself when he said "I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Undun. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass."


However, I can't find out exactly what the Flame of Anor is. Robert Foster's guide says simply, "The power wielded by Gandalf, possibly an allusion to the white light of the Sun as a symbol of the Secret Fire."

Which to me simply suggest Mr. Foster doesn't know for sure what Gandalf meant either, which is comforting.

Mr. Foster does say that the Secret Fire is "The Holy Spirit, the power giving substance and life to the Creation of Iluvatar. It was this light, also called the flame of Anor (perhaps loosely), that Gandalf served and the evil followers of Melkor and Sauron envied and feared."

Here Mr. Foster, despite his earlier unsureness, is rejecting my theory. But I think it would be silly of Gandalf to say both the Secret Fire and Flame of Anor if they were the same thing.

Just to spite Mr. Foster, I am now going to consulte J E A Tyler. Humph. . .

Actually, Tyler is worse than Foster, and says directly that the flame of Anor and the Secret Fire are identical.

Utter nonsense if you ask me. 

Oh well, I tried.


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## Ceorl (Feb 3, 2005)

'Fraid I agree with you there: utter rubbish. 

As far as I can remember( am pretty much sure though) Anor is the word for sun while Ithil is the word for moon(Minas Anor, Minas Ithil). To say that he is wielding the flame of the sun certainly makes sense, it is after all the most pure flame, as it was made from the last fruit(?) or Laurelin the Golden - that's pretty powerful. Perhaps in the making of Narya, light or flame from the sun was taken to give it power, kind of like the way light from Earendil's star was trapped in Frodo's phial. In any case I couldn't say for certain waht it is, but I would certainly say that it was _not_ the secret fire.

The secret fire, from the Sil, is that power that Illuvatar alone possessed and with which he was able to give life to the Ainur, therefore it could be said that this secret fire is required to make something real, rather than just thought. The secret fire was set at the centre of Arda when it was created so as to give life to the Ainurlindale.

As I have always understood it, when Gandalf dies he suffers a similar fate as the Elves, to have the spirit cast from their bodies and sent to Mandos, although perhaps Gandalf would be spared the cleansing process that happens there. In any case the Elves were then reborn into a new body(i.e a baby) and slowly recover their memories over time, or else if the body was intact they could be reborn into that body. This I believe is what happened to Gandalf; note the memory loss as a result of his reincarnation, very similar to the Elven pattern. The only question is how his body had survived the long battle. Yet perhaps even this is not inconceivable; if he could survive the fall and the landing in the water under the abyss, I see no reason why his body could not have survive the battle.


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## Inderjit S (Feb 5, 2005)

> Indeed, it may have been one of the weapons he used against it.



No, because the three rings were not weapons per se, as Elrond tells Gloin. Gandalf is of course servant to only one person-Illuvutar hence the "servant of the secret fire" reference-perhaps Eru's fire would always be a secret from the beast of hell.


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## Varda35 (Feb 8, 2005)

Ceorl said:


> The only question is how his body had survived the long battle. Yet perhaps even this is not inconceivable; if he could survive the fall and the landing in the water under the abyss, I see no reason why his body could not have survive the battle.


 
I agree....i think Gandalf's body must have survived the battle because I was under the distinct impression that he has the ring when he sails west. And while the ring is not a weapon per se, it does have great power and Gandalf has the ability to wield that power. It is entirely plausable that the power of the ring of fire is what helped Gandalf's body survive the flames of the balrog...am i making any sense? lol


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## Hammersmith (Feb 8, 2005)

Inderjit S said:


> No, because the three rings were not weapons per se, as Elrond tells Gloin. Gandalf is of course servant to only one person-Illuvutar hence the "servant of the secret fire" reference-perhaps Eru's fire would always be a secret from the beast of hell.


 
Well perhaps he used it in the battle, dampening the attacks of the Balrogs. The Balrogs were fire Maiar, if I remember correctly. Could this have anything to do with the "secret fire" referred to? A counter to the evil fire? And if Narya is the ring of fire (was it? Can't remember... ), it could also be a powerful counter to the fire spirit's assault.


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## Eledhwen (Feb 8, 2005)

You'll find much useful information on this thread, which is called something like 'What does Narya do for Gandalf?'


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## Aldanil (Feb 8, 2005)

*And while we're on the subject...*

Putting aside for a moment the matter of Narya,


What about Glamdring, eh?


Beyond being more immediately useful for wacking Balrogs,
an ancient great Elven-blade from the armories of Gondolin
is rather more substantial a "thing" than a Ring to hang on to;
and since Gandalf is quite willing to lay it aside at Hama's asking
outside the doors of the Golden Hall, he must have brought it down
with him when Gwaihir carried him "naked" from the peak of Zirakzigil.



Or perhaps a subsequent conversation, something like

"Thanks a lot for the lift, my dear old friend the Windlord;
while you're up, would you mind going back for my sword?"


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## scotsboyuk (Feb 9, 2005)

@Aldanil

Perhaps Gandald clenched Glamdring between his ... teeth!

Perhaps giant eagles come fitted with a cloakroom where one can leave one's luggage.

@all

I think I agree with the sentiment that Gandalf's 'death' was more a case of his physical body dying and his spirit coming back to it.


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## Hammersmith (Feb 9, 2005)

scotsboyuk said:


> I think I agree with the sentiment that Gandalf's 'death' was more a case of his physical body dying and his spirit coming back to it.


 
Well I'm glad that's sorted


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## Ingwë (Feb 9, 2005)

I think his ring help him to come back to the real world. When Cirdan had give Gandalf his ring he told him that the ring will help him when he need help and it was Gandalf who really need any help after the fight agains the balrog.


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## Hobbit-GalRosie (Feb 9, 2005)

I'm almost sure Gandalf has the ring at the end of RotK, Tolkien was making such a big deal about the bearers of the three wearing them openly on their hands, I feel nearly positive it was mentioned that Gandalf had it but I could conceivably be wrong.

Anyway, Anor is literally Sindarin for sun so I think I agree with Ceorl's theories about that line, though I'd never considered it so deeply before. But I'm afraid you're mistaken, begging your pardon kind sir, *shuffles hairy little hobbit feet* as regards the Elvish reincarnation. In HoMe (Vol XI War of the Jewels unless it was the one before) Tolkien upon considering the psychological impact of a woman carrying someone else's child who is reborn into a family that doesn't know him only to slowly rediscover he had been someone else before was simply not something Eru would allow, and decided that either the Valar reconstructed their previous body in approximately the same form as before they were slain or, because Elves are the wonderful spiritual creatures they are might be able to re-create a body themselves, if they had the Valar's permission, possibly an explaination for the way modern man looks at Elves, that they were becoming less and less physical creatures as time went on and this was one aspect of that process, and that they might seem insubstantial or translucent to us now. Or something like that. If anyone actually has a copy of this part could you please post it (perhaps actually another thread would be better as it's only incidentally related to the subject of this one) because Tolkien put it so much better than me but perhaps a little more ambiguously and I don't like the thought that I might be trying to put words in his mouth, however, I can't seem to find the exact right way to describe what I remember him actually writing.


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## ASLAN THE GREAT (Feb 26, 2005)

nothing it stays on his figher lol


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## Eledhwen (Feb 26, 2005)

ASLAN THE GREAT said:


> nothing it stays on his figher lol


Er... did you miss some posts, Aslan?


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## Helm (Feb 26, 2005)

That's my thoughts too.


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## Starbrow (Mar 17, 2005)

I think Gandalf's ability to come back from the dead is a consequence of his being a Maia. Can you kill a Maia? Sauron was caught in the Drowning of Numenor yet he was able to return to Middle Earth, although he lost his physical body and much of his power. Maybe it was with special grace from Valinor that Gandalf was able to return to his same body and with increased power.


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## Narsil (Mar 17, 2005)

Starbrow said:


> I think Gandalf's ability to come back from the dead is a consequence of his being a Maia. Can you kill a Maia? Sauron was caught in the Drowning of Numenor yet he was able to return to Middle Earth, although he lost his physical body and much of his power. Maybe it was with special grace from Valinor that Gandalf was able to return to his same body and with increased power.



I tend to agree with this.._"Naked I was sent back-For a brief time, until my task is done"._ I believe that Gandalf did indeed lose his physical body for a time as Gwaihir The Windlord found him and bore him away saying _"Light as a swan's feather in my claw you are. The Sun shines through you. Indeed I do not think you need me anymore: were I to let you fall, you would float upon the wind"_. 

It seems that Gandalf did indeed at some point lose his physical body and was "reborn" later. I don't think it's easy to kill a Maia.


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## Eledhwen (Mar 17, 2005)

The higher beings of Middle-earth who misuse their power have always found themselves weakened as a result. Consequently, Melkor was defeated, and Sauron returned weakened, eventually unable to assume a pleasing countenance, doomed forever to _look_ evil. He met his end eventually because he took the risk of decanting much of himself into a destructible vessel - the Ring, and lost.

I think it stands to reason that the higher beings who do the opposite - lay down their power for the sake of good, will find themselves strengthened. Glorfindel was pretty awesome in LotR too.


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## Annaheru (Mar 17, 2005)

Sorta in agreement with you, Eledhwen, but I rather think this is directly tied to the nature of the Istari. I think after Gandalf 'died', he was returned to ME in his original form as a Maia. So the the extra power he exhibits is simply what he laid aside when he assumed corporeal form the first time. I see several things in support of this: 1) Gandalf returns weightless and remains that way (quote to Gwaihar before Black Gate), 2) his friends did not immediately recognize him: he looked similar to what he had before, but also similar to Saruman 3) his slight translucency: his new body more resembles the Valar's 'cloaks' than flesh.
I think he did return to what had been his body, but the limitations placed on that body had been removed. Of course, he would still have been operating by the same rules (no overlordship, or contest w/ Sauron), so he wouldn't have overtly revealed his restored nature (say by shape-shifting).


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## Eledhwen (Mar 17, 2005)

Not 'weightless'; it sounds too much like being out of control, like an astronaut. That state would render a blow from his staff against himself more than against his opponent. I would say rather that his corporeal mass was now subject more to his mind than the laws of nature. Pedantry, maybe, but important.

I still like the thought of goodness having substantial rewards in the power department; but maybe one just retains fullness of might. Conceded.


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## Tar - Palantir (Mar 21, 2005)

I'm pretty sure that Gandalfs spirit returns to the gardens of Lorien to replenish and revitalise as that is where he originally came from being a Maiar of service of Nienna one of the Vala. From here he can then return to his body and continue his work.


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## scotsboyuk (Mar 22, 2005)

Tar - Palantir said:


> I'm pretty sure that Gandalfs spirit returns to the gardens of Lorien to replenish and revitalise as that is where he originally came from being a Maiar of service of Nienna one of the Vala.


 
Isn't Gandalf a Maiar of Manwe?


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## Ithrynluin (Mar 22, 2005)

Tar - Palantir said:


> I'm pretty sure that Gandalfs spirit returns to the gardens of Lorien to replenish and revitalise as that is where he originally came from being a Maiar of service of Nienna one of the Vala. From here he can then return to his body and continue his work.





scotsboyuk said:


> Isn't Gandalf a Maiar of Manwe?



It's somewhat disputable, I think. See this thread.


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