# Socrates' .... umm ... debt and other matters



## Barliman Butterbur (Sep 21, 2005)

*Re: Tolkien as linguist*

Hey Indy — a question which has been burning my brain for some time now: Did Crito _ever_ get that cock over to Asclepius? Was the debt ever settled?

Barley


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## Inderjit S (Sep 22, 2005)

*Re: Tolkien as linguist*

To be honest, I have no idea. In all probability he problably mused on the matter philosophically for a few years, or in the least set up an argument with Plato and said 'yes' to everything Plato ever said, which seems to be the gist of what happened whenever Plato was talking to anybody. 

"Blah-blah-blah-lets kill everybody, I am really clever, I hate democracy, I am really clever, I should rule the world with your guys, lets get rid of the family"
Plato
"Yes"
Philosopher

Honestly, Plato is way overrated.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Sep 22, 2005)

*Re: Tolkien as linguist*



Inderjit S said:


> To be honest, I have no idea. In all probability he problably mused on the matter philosophically for a few years, or in the least set up an argument with Plato and said 'yes' to everything Plato ever said, which seems to be the gist of what happened whenever Plato was talking to anybody.
> 
> "Blah-blah-blah-lets kill everybody, I am really clever, I hate democracy, I am really clever, I should rule the world with your guys, lets get rid of the family"
> Plato
> ...



Now I'm confused. Wasn't it _Socrates_ who was worried about his cock? 

Barley


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## Walter (Sep 22, 2005)

*Re: Tolkien as linguist*



Barliman Butterbur said:


> Hey Indy — a question which has been burning my brain for some time now: Did Crito _ever_ get that cock over to Asclepius? Was the debt ever settled?
> 
> Barley


The question which irked me far more and longer was this: _Why_ would Socrates owe a cock to Aesculapius, the healer? And why would he care about such a a minor issue in the very moment of death approaching?

Is the answer really that simple as medical-history-books claim: He was grateful for an easy death caused by the Hemlock, thankful for the Euthanasy?

Or is there more to it? A veiled hint, something metaphorical? Could it have some mythological background? 

And besides, he is said to have said "we owe" not "I owe". Why the plural?

Now wouldn't that be worth some "googling"... 

Edit: To the best of my knowledge it is nowhere told if the debt was ever settled, in the _Phaedo_ we only learn that Crito assures him that he will do so ...


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## Walter (Sep 23, 2005)

*Re: Tolkien as linguist*



Barliman Butterbur said:


> Holy polysyllabiciousness!
> 
> Barley


Yeah! 

So, did you solve the riddle about the cock, Barley? 

Well, here's a little theory:

Socrates (or Plato) is referring to Asklepios, the demigod/god of Greek myths who was said to have had not only exceptional healing skills, but also to have been able to raise the dead (much like Joshua the Nazarene). The cock is said to have been a sacred animal to him (as well as to Hermes, the conductor of souls). Thus, Socrates may have hoped for a timely resurrection by Asclepius with having a cock sacrificed to him...

In that case we may also proceed to speculate, that Crito for some reason or another refrained from sacrificing the cock, or else we would have learned of Socrates' resurrection... 




P.S.: But of course, since it seems that Asklepios was also a common denominator for a physician, he may as well have just been in debt of one for some medical treatment...


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## Inderjit S (Sep 23, 2005)

*Re: Tolkien as linguist*

Wow, Walter you are one intelligent guy.  Seriously, you are a credit to the forum. Who would have though that a debate about Socrate's cock would generate such a great post?

To be honest, I'm not really interested in Plato anymore, I just don't like his political ideas at all, and that he falls under the trap of Nietzsche's comment about the wise thinking that because they are wise they are right. Aristotle, Plato's most famous pupil, is much more to my tastes, but not wholly so. 

Anothet question for Walter-do you know of any authors, linguists, philologists or annoyingly boring pedantic pseuds with nothing better to do than to write long, esoteric and complicated essays about words who had made up or developed as many languages as Tolkien? I also wonder whether we will see Tolkien's unpublished linguistical manuscripts which various people and organisations refuse to share with the public.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/9902/unpub.html


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## Walter (Sep 23, 2005)

*Re: Tolkien as linguist*



Inderjit S said:


> Wow, Walter you are one intelligent guy.  Seriously, you are a credit to the forum. Who would have though that a debate about Socrate's cock would generate such a great post?


Yeah, thanks to Barley, all of a sudden Socrates' cock is in everybodys m... wait .... let me rephrase:

Thanks to Barley, Socrates' cock is suddenly subject of discussion... hmmm I doubt that this is any better... 

Due to Barley's question we came to discuss Socrates little red rooster .... hrrrrmppphhh

I give up on that... 

But seriously, though I feel flattered I don't deserve the praise. The intelligent guys are the ones who write the books I happen to read, occasionally... 



> To be honest, I'm not really interested in Plato anymore, I just don't like his political ideas at all, and that he falls under the trap of Nietzsche's comment about the wise thinking that because they are wise they are right. Aristotle, Plato's most famous pupil, is much more to my tastes, but not wholly so.


I don't think I like Aristotle better...anyway...you haven't read R. Pirsig's _Zen and the Art of Motorcycle-maintenance_ perchance?


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## Inderjit S (Sep 23, 2005)

*Re: Tolkien as linguist*

Well....there seems to be a lot of innuendo in this thread surrounding Greek philosophers. Oh the shame!



> I don't think I like Aristotle better...anyway...you haven't read R. Pirsig's Zen and the Art of Motorcycle-maintenance perchance?



I like Aristotle-in some parts. In other parts he is plain silly-like his support of slavery, but such things I guess could be put down to 'cultural' factors. My personal favourite political philosophers are deTocqueville, Hayek, the Federalists...and some others I guess. I haven't heard of the aforementioned book, but I will look into it if I get the chance.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Sep 24, 2005)

*Re: Tolkien as linguist*



Walter said:


> Yeah!
> 
> So, did you solve the riddle about the cock, Barley?



Mine, or his? 



> ...The cock is said to have been a sacred animal to him



As it is to most men...



> Socrates may have hoped for a timely resurrection by Asclepius with having a cock sacrificed to him...
> 
> In that case we may also proceed to speculate, that Crito for some reason or another refrained from sacrificing the cock, or else we would have learned of Socrates' resurrection...



That is elegant speculation!



Inderjit S said:


> Wow, Walter you are one intelligent guy. Seriously, you are a credit to the forum. Who would have though that a debate about Socrate's cock would generate such a great post?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well you must all know that my curiosity is strictly academic, right? And to that end I have googled around a bit and come up with the following (which seem to be the most representative of what I found):

•Crito, I owe a cock to Asclepius; will you remember to pay the debt? (Last words, according to the Phaedo — Asclepius was the god of medicine and healing, to whom such a sacrifice might be made upon the curing of a disease.)

•Socrates' last words before death (at least as they are recorded in this dialogue) are: "Crito, I owe a cock to Asclepius. Will you remember to pay the debt?" Asclepius was a mortal healer/doctor who, as punishment for raising the dead, was killed by Zeus. He was then transformed into a divinity in charge of healing and the profession of medical practitioners. As a thank offering for being cured of a particular disease (e.g., blindness, arthritis, back pain, etc.), pilgrims would sacrifice a cock to the god. So what does Socrates mean by his final words?

Indeed what? The Internet would — shockingly enough — appear to contain _no answers_ to the question — only a tireless enthusiasm for giving the quote — which appears in at least six different variations. 

The only other reason I can think of is that in light of Socrates' impending death, a cock would be the last thing he needed — why not offer it to Asclepius?  (Or — perhaps — it was Socrates' gratitude for Asclepius' finally curing him of the disease — of _life_.)

Barley


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## Walter (Sep 24, 2005)

*Re: Tolkien as linguist*

_"...strictly academic..."_, why, yes, of course...



> Asclepius was a mortal healer/doctor who, as punishment for raising the dead, was killed by Zeus. He was then transformed into a divinity in charge of healing and the profession of medical practitioners.



Asclepios (the Greek name means 'unceasingly gentle') is usually described as son of Apollon and Koronis, daughter of Phlegyas, but sometimes Koronis (crow, raven) is considered another name of Athene. 

Athene - like Apollo - is probably a remnant of older myths, only later had she been hellenized as parthenogenic daughter of Zeus to obscur her matrilinear origin. She herself was a healer and often relied on the healing power of the mistletoe. Aesculapius, the latin name of Asclepios, bears a reference to the oak-tree, and in eastern Europe the mistletoe is a parasite of the oak (of old it was even considered the sexual organ of the oak).


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