# Curumo vs Olorin



## baraka (Feb 27, 2002)

Who do you think is stronger, Curumo in the beginning or Olorin when he returned as Gandalf the White.


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## Beleg Strongbow (Feb 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by baraka _
> *Who do you think is stronger, Curumo in the beginning or Olorin when he returned as Gandalf the White. *




Olorin was wisest ever, allways and saruman wasn't stronger in the end but how do you define power??? or strength?????


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## baraka (Feb 27, 2002)

*Definitions:*

pow·er n. 
The ability or capacity to perform or act effectively. 
The ability or official capacity to exercise control; authority

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved. 

strength n. 

The power to resist attack; impregnability. 
The ability to maintain a moral or intellectual position firmly.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

I meant Saruman when he first got to ME and Gandalf after his return in TTT.


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## Beleg Strongbow (Feb 27, 2002)

*Re: Definitions:*



> _Originally posted by baraka _
> *pow·er n.
> The ability or capacity to perform or act effectively.
> The ability or official capacity to exercise control; authority
> ...




Gandalf fo sure.


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## Lantarion (Feb 28, 2002)

Gandalf (Olórin) was always wiser, but when the Istari first came to Middle-Earth Saruman (Curumo) was more powerful, as he was sent as the head of the company. But when Gandalf was 'reincarnated' by Ilúvatar or Mandos or Manwë he was the most powerful being in Middle-Earth, except perhaps for Sauron. He says to Gimli and Legolas and Aragorn, when he meets them again at Fangorn Forest, that none of their weapons could harm him, which would point to his momentary indestructibility. He also simply sped around Rohan and Gondor, helping the troops and everybody in their need, and he wasn'r even wounded. His new form was tireless and much, much, much more powerful, so he could finish his duty properly. 
That's my opinion, anyway.


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## Beleg Strongbow (Feb 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Pontifex _
> *Gandalf (Olórin) was always wiser, but when the Istari first came to Middle-Earth Saruman (Curumo) was more powerful, as he was sent as the head of the company. But when Gandalf was 'reincarnated' by Ilúvatar or Mandos or Manwë he was the most powerful being in Middle-Earth, except perhaps for Sauron. He says to Gimli and Legolas and Aragorn, when he meets them again at Fangorn Forest, that none of their weapons could harm him, which would point to his momentary indestructibility. He also simply sped around Rohan and Gondor, helping the troops and everybody in their need, and he wasn'r even wounded. His new form was tireless and much, much, much more powerful, so he could finish his duty properly.
> That's my opinion, anyway.  *




Yes that is right. Though id on't think he gathered to much more power.


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## Legolam (Mar 1, 2002)

Isn't it Curunir, or am I getting confused?


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## graen (Mar 1, 2002)

When was Curunir sent as leader? I wasn't aware that they were sent over in any specific positions. According to Galadrial, Curunir was chosen as leader of the White Council despite her pushing to put Gandalf in that spot.

That suggests to me that there was no heirarchy in the Istari before the White Council was formed.

Is there somewhere that details this more clearly?


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## baraka (Mar 1, 2002)

In the unfinished tales in the part of "The Istari". I´ll have to look for the exact reference for you.

Saruman´s name was Curumo, Curunir was the name i think the elves (correct me if i´m wrong anyone) and it means man of craft.


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## Lantarion (Mar 1, 2002)

> The first to come was one of noble mien and bearing, with raven hair, and a fair voice, and he was clad in white; great skill he had in works of hand and he was regarded by well-nigh all, even by the Eldar, as the head of the Order.


That is from Unfinished Tales, 'The Istari'. 



> "Saruman the White is the greatest of my Order."


Gandalf says this in the LotR, 'The Council of Elrond'.

And from the Two Towers:


> He was accounted by many the chief of Wizards.


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## baraka (Mar 1, 2002)

> When was Curunir sent as leader? I wasn't aware that they were sent over in any specific positions. According to Galadrial, Curunir was chosen as leader of the White Council despite her pushing to put Gandalf in that spot



In Unfinished Tales "THE ISTARI" 



> Most of the remaining writings about the Istari (as a group) are unhappily no more than very rapid jottings, often illegible. Of major interest, however, is a brief and very hasty sketch of a narrative, telling of a council of the Valar, summoned it seems by Manwë ("and maybe he called upon Eru for counsel?"), at which it was resolved to send out three emissaries to Middle-earth. "Who would go ? For they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and weariness coming from the flesh." But two only came forward: Curumo, who was chosen by Aulë, and Alatar, who was sent by Oromë. Then Manwë asked, where was Olórin ? And Olórin, who was clad in grey, and having just entered from a journey had seated himself at the edge of the council, asked what Manwë would have of him. Manwë replied that he wished Olórin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth (and it is remarked in parentheses that "Olórin was a lover of the Eldar that remained," apparently to explain Manwë's choice). But Olórin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwë said that that was all the more reason why he should go, and that he commanded Olórin (illegible words follow that seems to contain word "third"). But at that Varda looked up and said: "Not as the third;" and Curumo remembered it.





> The note ends with the statement that Curumo [Saruman] took Aiwendil [Radagast] because Yavanna begged him, and that Alatar took Pallando as a friend



I hope this will help clarify things.


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## Beleg Strongbow (Mar 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by baraka _
> *
> 
> I hope this will help clarify things. *




Ahh i was just about to qoute that!!


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