# Elven vs. elfish vs. elvish and so on. Help!



## Ottergorn (Mar 5, 2004)

Ok. Before I settle in all nice and cozy, I need to find something out, once and for all. Especially since I have a friend who is arguing about this with me. (Notice, I dont say which one of us believes what to be true, thus removing any possible guilt of being wrong from me. LOL)

What terms, exactly, did Tolkien use to describe elves and dwarves, and things pertaining to them. Elfish, elvish, elven, elfin, and pretty much the same with dwarves. Long ago, I remember having read something on the matter, but internet searches have turned up little. Any help would be most appreciated.


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## Walter (Mar 6, 2004)

Tolkien - as a philologist - used several occasions to elaborate on this issue. E.g. in Appendix F of _The Lord of the Rings_ he writes:



> The still more northerly language of Dale is in this book seen only in the names of the Dwarves that came from that region and so used the language of the Men there, taking their 'outer' names in that tongue. It may be observed that in this book as in _The Hobbit_ the form _dwarves_ is used, although the dictionaries tell us that the plural of _dwarf_ is _dwarfs_. It should be _dwarrows_ (or _dwerrows_), if singular and plural had each gone its own way down the years, as have _man_ and _men_, or _goose_ and _geese_. But we no longer speak of a dwarf as often as we do of a man, or even of a goose, and memories have not been fresh enough among Men to keep hold of a special plural for a race now abandoned to folk-tales, where at least a shadow of truth is preserved, or at last to nonsense-stories in which they have become mere figures of fun. But in the Third Age something of their old character and power is still glimpsed, if already a little dimmed; these are the descendants of the Naugrim of the Elder Days, in whose hearts still burns ancient fire of Aulë the Smith, and the embers smoulder of their long grudge against the Elves; and in whose hands still lives the skill in work of stone that none have surpassed.
> It is to mark this that I have ventured to use the form _dwarves_, and remove them a little, perhaps, from the sillier tales of these latter days. _Dwarrows_ would have been better; but I have used that form only in the name _Dwarrowdelf_, to represent the name of Moria in the Common Speech: _Phurunargian_. For that meant 'Dwarfdelving' and yet was already a word of antique form. But Moria is an Elvish name, and given without love; for the Eldar, though they might at need, in their bitter wars with the Dark Power and his servants, contrive fortresses underground, were not dwellers in such places of choice. They were lovers of the green earth and the lights of heaven; and Moria in their tongue means the Black Chasm. But the Dwarves themselves, and this name at least was never kept secret, called it _Khazad-dûm_, the Mansion of the Khazâd; for such is their own name for their own race, and has been so, since Aulë gave it to them at their making in the deeps of time.
> Elves has been used to translate both _Quendi_, 'the speakers', the High-elven name of all their kind, and _Eldar_, the name of the Three Kindreds that sought for the Undying Realm and came there at the beginning of Days (save the Sindar_ only). This old word was indeed the only one available, and was once fitted to apply to such memories of this people as Men preserved, or to the making of Men's minds not wholly dissimilar. But it has been diminished, and to many it may now suggest fancies either pretty or silly, as unlike to the Quendi of old as are butterflies to the falcon - not that any of the Quendi ever possessed wings of the body, as unnatural to them as to Men. They were a race high and beautiful, the older Children of the world, and among them the Eldar were as kings, who now are gone: the People of the Great Journey, the People of the Stars. They were tall, fair of skin and grey-eyed, though their locks were dark, save in the golden house of Finarfin; and their voices had more melodies than any mortal voice that now is heard. They were valiant, but the history of those that returned to Middle-earth in exile was grievous; and though it was in far-off days crossed by the fate of the Fathers, their fate is not that of Men. Their dominion passed long ago, and they dwell now beyond the circles of the world, and do not return._


_
Or in his letters:



No reviewer (that I have seen), although all have carefully used the correct dwarfs themselves, has commented on the fact (which I only became conscious of through reviews) that I use throughout the 'incorrect' plural dwarves. I am afraid it is just a piece of private bad grammar, rather shocking in a philologist; but I shall have to go on with it. Perhaps my dwarf – since he and the Gnome2 are only translations into approximate equivalents of creatures with different names and rather different functions in their own world – may be allowed a peculiar plural. The real 'historical' plural of dwarf (like teeth of tooth) is dwarrows, anyway: rather a nice word, but a bit too archaic. Still I rather wish I had used the word dwarrow.

Letters #17

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And why dwarves? Grammar prescribes dwarfs; philology suggests that dwarrows would be the historical form. The real answer is that I knew no better. But dwarves goes well with elves; and, in any case, elf, gnome, goblin, dwarf are only approximate translations of the Old Elvish names for beings of not quite the same kinds and functions.
These dwarves are not quite the dwarfs of better known lore. They have been given Scandinavian names, it is true; but that is an editorial concession. Too many names in the tongues proper to the period might have been alarming. Dwarvish was both complicated and cacophonous. Even early elvish philologists avoided it, and the dwarves were obliged to use other languages, except for entirely private conversations.

Letters #25

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_


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## Eledhwen (Mar 6, 2004)

_Elven_ would be used to describe something which is of the elves. _Elvish_ includes those things which can be described as Elf-like, but are not necessarily of the elves. Elfin = resembling an elf *^¬-^*


 Elfish was a Spanish fish who ran amok among the seven seas at the time of the conquistadors. With his happy shoal of followers, he fought for truth, justice and the all-American way.


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## jallan (Mar 6, 2004)

I presume Elfish had at least one Elfin.


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## Lhunithiliel (Mar 7, 2004)

Eledhwen said:


> _Elven_ would be used to describe something which is of the elves. _Elvish_ includes those things which can be described as Elf-like, but are not necessarily of the elves. Elfin = resembling an elf *^¬-^*


El, do you mean that _ELVISH_ does not mean "sth. created by and /or pertaining to the Elves?"  I've always thought so.  
And as for _Elven_ - somehow I have built an understanding of this form as being used to describe some more.... "spiritual" matters related to the Elves.



> Elfish was a Spanish fish who ran amok among the seven seas at the time of the conquistadors. With his happy shoal of followers, he fought for truth, justice and the all-American way.


L O L !!!


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## Eledhwen (Mar 7, 2004)

Lhunithiliel said:


> El, do you mean that _ELVISH_ does not mean "sth. created by and /or pertaining to the Elves?"  I've always thought so.
> And as for _Elven_ - somehow I have built an understanding of this form as being used to describe some more.... "spiritual" matters related to the Elves.


Frodo had an 'elvish' air about him. This may have been some spiritual element, as observed by Gandalf when Frodo awoke in Rivendell, or it may have been due to the overseeing of the quest by the Varda and/or High Elves. This would pertain to the elves, but might not be of their creation. 'Elven' is not even in the Oxford Concise English Dictionary, and I am relying on usage in Tolkien's works for the definition that has built up in my thoughts. If I find time, I'll try to dig out some quotes (and hope they fit my story).


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## Walter (Mar 7, 2004)

Eledhwen said:


> Elfish was a Spanish fish who ran amok among the seven seas at the time of the conquistadors. With his happy shoal of followers, he fought for truth, justice and the all-American way.



Two questions:

1) Wasn't that "El-fishador"?

2) If it was Elfish, wouldn't the proper spelling be "El-fish"?

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Eledhwen said:


> Elven' is not even in the Oxford Concise English Dictionary,..



Anotherone of T's rantings on that issue (my italics):



> Dwarves, dwarves', dwarvish have been corrected throughout (with one exception on p. 21) to the current dictionary forms dwarfs, dwarfs', dwarfish. Elvish, elvish has been changed to Elfish, elfish 7 times but left unchanged 3 times. I view this procedure with dudgeon. I deliberately used dwarves etc. for a special purpose and effect – that it has an effect can be gauged by comparing the passages with the substitutes dwarfs, especially in verse. The point is dealt with in L.R. iii, p. 415.1 Of course I do not expect compositors or proof-readers to know that, or to know anything about the history of the word 'dwarf'; but I should have thought it might have occurred, if not to a compositor at least to a reader, that the author would not have used consistently getting on for 300 times a particular form, nor would your readers have passed it, if it was a mere casual mistake in 'grammar'.
> Dwarfs etc. is of course the only recognized modern form of the plural; but the (inconsistent) correction of elvish has not even that excuse. _The older and 'historical' form elvish is still recognized, and appears even in such popular dictionaries as the 'Pocket Oxford'. I suppose I should be grateful that Cox and Wyman have not inflicted the change from elven to elfin_ ...
> 
> Letters #236



And my _New Oxford Dictionary of English_ has:



> *elf* noun (pl. elves) a supernatural creature of folk tales, typically represented as a small, delicate, elusive figure in human form with pointed ears, magical powers, and a capricious nature.
> - DERIVATIVES _elfish_ adjective, _elven_ adjective (poetic/literary), _elvish_ adjective.
> - ORIGIN Old English, of Germanic origin German Alp 'nightmare'.


and


> *elfin* adjective (of a person or their face) small and delicate, typically with an attractively mischievous or strange charm: _her black hair suited her elfin face._
> noun 1 archaic an elf.
> - ORIGIN late 16th cent.: from ELF probably suggested by Middle English elvene 'of Elves' and by Elphin, the name of a character in Arthurian romance.



Philologists probably wouldn't agree with the suggested _Germanic origin German Alp 'nightmare'_, but that's a different story...


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## Ottergorn (Mar 7, 2004)

*Wow.*

My most hearty thanks to all of you for such timely, and, eh, thorough responses. It warms my heart to see others who love Tolkien and his works so much.


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## joxy (Mar 9, 2004)

jallan said:


> I presume Elfish had at least one Elfin.


Well done Jallan; we missed that one the last time this subject arose!
Thanks also to Eledhwen for expanding to the companion of the Spanish hero El Cid and to Walter for expanding on *that* to the fabled lost city of South America!
They put the "fish shaped like a letter L" and "learner-fish" that we had that time, to shame.


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