# What did they call it before it was "The Shire"?



## Valandil (Mar 22, 2006)

Way back in 1601 of the Third Age, King Argeleb II of Arthedain made the land-grant to Hobbits led by Marcho and Blanco Fallohide which the Hobbits called "The Shire".

We have indications that this area had become very sparsely populated by the Dunedain - and that it had initially been partly agricultural (mostly to grow food for Annuminas, while the Kings of Arnor were there) and partly a royal hunting ground.

Does anyone know what the Dunedain used to call it? Before it was given to the Hobbits?

Also - while we're at it - does anyone know if Tolkien ever made a name for the land south and west of the Shire? Between the Baranduin and the Blue Mountains? To the east of Baranduin over to the Gwathlo is "Minhiriath" - but I don't know a name for that land west of the Baranduin.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Mar 23, 2006)

I believe it was part of the region of Eriador and then the Dunedain layed aside some land for the Hobbits and they named it the Shire.


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## Valandil (Mar 26, 2006)

Yes - that is correct. I just wondered what the Dunedain called it before 1601 of the Third Age.

Other areas have particular "regional" names: Minhiriath, Enedwaith, etc.

However - it might be that those last two were somewhat outside the sphere of Dunedain (Arnor's) influence - and that's why those place-names were needed (or were carried down?). Reviewing a map, the only names within what might have been the more established - or at least more central - portions of Arnor are basically names of geographical features (ie, South Downs, Hills of Evendim, The Angle, Midgewater Marshes, etc).

Maybe we don't have any names used by Arnorians for former portions of their realm - unless we have some hints from the daughter kingdom names of: Arthedain, Cardolan and Rhudaur...??


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## Barliman Butterbur (Mar 26, 2006)

Valandil said:


> Way back in 1601 of the Third Age, King Argeleb II of Arthedain made the land-grant to Hobbits led by Marcho and Blanco Fallohide which the Hobbits called "The Shire".
> 
> ...Does anyone know what the Dunedain used to call it? Before it was given to the Hobbits?



Pasadena? Boyle Heights? Glendale? West Hollywood? The Fairfax District?  

Barley


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## Erestor Arcamen (Mar 26, 2006)

like the old song, "Istanbul not Constantinople" it was somethin now its the Shire:

Istanbul was Constantinople
Now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Why did Constantinople get the works
That's nobody's business but the Turks

maybe someone can change the lyrics for the Hobbits


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## Alcuin (Oct 31, 2006)

I’ve wondered about this, too. Some Dúnedain structures apparently survived into the late Third Age, or at least into the Hobbit occupation of the region. In the “Prologue” to _Fellowship of the Ring_, Tolkien says that most of the Dúnedain “settlements had long disappeared and been forgotten in Bilbo’s time,” and that the Bridge of Stonebows (over the Brandywine) was built by the Dúnedain; that though the “land … had long been deserted when [the Hobbits] entered it, it had before been well-tilled, and there the king [of Arthedain and Arnor beforehand] had once had many farms, cornlands, vineyards, and woods,” so there must gave been Dúnedain settlements in the territory in earlier times. (I wonder if the Old Mill was a surviving building from those days?) “The Hobbits named it the Shire,” so apparently it had some other name, but perhaps “Shire” was a full or partial translation of the Sindarin word the Dúnedain used: since it was the royal demesne, maybe its old name was Sindarin for “Kingshire” or some such. 

The Messenger Service (the mail or Quick Post, formed no doubt to meet the king’s requirement that the Hobbits speed his messengers) and the Watch (the Shirriffs) survived from the Shire’s earliest days; we might also wonder if the four Farthings were a Hobbit invention, or whether they, too survived from the days of the Dúnedain.

[I much prefer _Constantinople_, “The City of Constantine,” to _Istanbul_, just “The City.” _Constantinople_ it was and remains; I wonder if Ataturk’s changes will, too.]


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## Mike (Nov 1, 2006)

Didn't they call it "Suza"?


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## Alcuin (Nov 1, 2006)

Mike said:


> Didn't they call it "Suza"?


“Shire” is indeed the English translation of the Westron or Common (worn-down Adûnaic) _Suza_, as “Rivendell” is for _Karningul_, “hobbit” for _kuduk_ worn down from _kûd-dûkan_ (still used in Rohan, translated as “holbytlan”), or “Brandybuck” for _Brandagamba_. There are others listed in _Return of the King_, “Appendix F” along with a discussion of Tolkien’s “translations” from Common.

He will (I hope) correct me if I am mistaken, but I think Valandil’s question might have been along the lines of, _what was original Elvish or Common name used by the Northern Dúnedain for what later became the hobbits’ Shire__?_


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## solicitr (Oct 26, 2007)

If the later Shire ever had a specific Numenorean name Tolkien never tells us; it was simply a part of Arnor, later Arthedain. In Appendix B it merely says that the King granted the Halflings "land beyond Baranduin."


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