# Sauron vs. Saruman



## Eonwe (Mar 22, 2002)

In the White Rider, Gimli says to Gandalf that it would be nice if Sauron and Saruman had nothing inbetween them so that they could fight it out.

And Gandalf says, something like, the visitor would emerge stronger and free from doubt.

What does he mean?


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## Greenwood (Mar 22, 2002)

> And Gandalf says, something like, the visitor would emerge stronger and free from doubt.



Gandalf says the winner would emerge stronger and free of doubt. Stronger because the winner would have one less rival and free of doubt because the winner knows the loser did not have the Ring.


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## Lady_of_Gondor (Mar 22, 2002)

I think that it means that the winner would emerge more arrogant than they were originally. They would be stronger because they would have nobody to compete with for rule of the "evil" side of middle earth. And all together they would be more difficult to contend with because they wouldn't have the distraction of the loser.


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## Úlairi (Mar 22, 2002)

I couldn't agree more with Greenwood of Lady_of_Gondor, except that Eonwe's question consisted of two parts, and the second has not been answered. Who would win between Sauron and Saruman? I don't think there is any doubt there, Sauron would prove the victor, with or without the Ring. Firstly the Istari weren't permitted to match Sauron's power with power, and secondly, Sauron was of the highest order of Maiar. That is why the Valar sent five Maiar to stop only one. I hope that answers your question Eonwe.


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## Eonwe (Mar 22, 2002)

I guess really my question was, who is the "visitor" in what Gandalf says:

1) Sauron
2) Saruman
3) Free peoples of ME

As far as Sauron vs. Saruman, Saruman had no chance if Gondor didn't win. That's why I think Gandalf tugs at him a bit to join the fight rather than wait for Sauron to deal with him. Perhaps because of PRIDE (Grond always says that) Saruman thinks he can take his chances with Sauron once the war's over.


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## Eonwe (Mar 23, 2002)

Greenwood has just informed me that the sentence "The visitor would emerge stronger than either, and free from doubt" should say "The victor..."

Apparently my paperback is old!


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## PRH (Mar 23, 2002)

The victor would only be stronger in that they would no longer have to divide their efforts between 2 sets of enemies. In an overall sense they would obviously be weaker having lost a number of forces in the fight.

Free from doubt is probably as Greenwood says, about the Ring.


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## Úlairi (Mar 23, 2002)

It says in the Sil:



> "Yet Saruman was encompassed by that darkness, mightier than he."



There's the answer, Sauron was mightier than Saruman, so the victor would be... (drumroll please) SAURON!!!


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## farrox (Aug 1, 2011)

How does the term "visitor" fit into all this? Is it a typing error for "victor"?


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## Erestor Arcamen (Aug 5, 2011)

farrox said:


> How does the term "visitor" fit into all this? Is it a typing error for "victor"?


 Yeah that was stated above that he read wrong.


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## DDesque (Aug 7, 2011)

Hi All! Recent discoverer, immediate joiner. This thread really piqued my interest.

If I recall Unfinished Tales correctly, Saruman says to the Witch King "I have it not, as susrely you know, for if I did, you would bow down before me and call me lord." Also, he would probably be able to control the three rings of the Elves.

If Saruman got control of the Ringwraiths, it would change a lot of things. Dol Guldur and Minas Morgul are controlled by wraiths, imagine those orc garrisons joining Saruman's forces. 

The wielders of the three rings would probably give theirs up rather than let Saruman control them, but Saruman would certainly get hold of them, depowering Gandalf, Galadriel and Elrond. Now imagine that he gives a ring each to Denethor (gaining Minas Tirith and its forces), Wormtongue (gaining the Rohirrim) and whoever's in charge of the Men of Dale at this point (er, Brand?). 

Couple this with Saruman's superior technology, and a lot more resources to breed Uruk-Hai. That's a lot of power.

Of course, Sauron will still have huge resources. I reckon if Saruman consolidated his power quickly and hit Sauron blitzkrieg-style, he'd win, but if he once dropped the ball, a long war would favour Sauron.


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## Bard the Bowman (Aug 13, 2011)

Hahaha you guys make me laugh. All you had to do was read a little further on Gandalf's statement. He says that Saruman cannot fight Sauron (presumably because Sauron was too mighty) unless he gained the Ring. You guys need to be a little less narrow minded.


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## elladan (Aug 21, 2011)

Bard the Bowman said:


> Hahaha you guys make me laugh. All you had to do was read a little further on Gandalf's statement. He says that Saruman cannot fight Sauron (presumably because Sauron was too mighty) unless he gained the Ring. You guys need to be a little less narrow minded.


But the above point by Ddesque was based on the premise of what would happen if Saruman did gain the ring. And I don't see what is particularly narrow minded about that. Though we can't be sure (luckily for the free peoples of middle earth), I believe that if Saruman gained the ring he would have likely defeated sauron if he could learn to wield the ring quickly enough. That would be the key, as sauron's forces were infinitely greater, and if Saruman was slow in learning how to wield it properly the power of mordor could defeat him without much difficulty.

But, if Saruman learned how to make use of the ring's power quickly it seems likely that combined with the power of his voice would allow him to bring much of sauron's forces (including the ringwraiths) to his side, and thus defeat him. I personally don't envision an all out war in this scenario between the forces of mordor and isengard, but rather the armies of mordor would go over to Saruman's side when it became clear he was weilding the ring. And thus there would be no real war, just saruman taking sauron's place as the new dark lord and inheriting all of sauron's empire. I don't know if that is how it would have played out, but it may be as good of a guess as any.

Not that this would have helped the Free Peoples very much.


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## DDesque (Aug 21, 2011)

Thankee, elladan! 



elladan said:


> Not that this would have helped the Free Peoples very much.



Yeah, Middle earth wouldn't even be a nice place to visit.

I wonder what kind of a job Galadriel would've made? She seemed pretty confident, but that could've been a side effect. Was there enough juice left in the Elves to be a threat to Sauron?


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