# Gandalf vs the Balrog.  A fair fight?



## Gary Gamgee (Jun 28, 2002)

I've been thinking about this, both of them were Maia, lesser than Sauron of course, but where they roughly an even match? Balrogs were spirits of fire who where drawn to Morgoth and he in turn took them and cloaked them in shadow and made them his servants. All this was going on in ME whilst over in Valinor the Maia spirit Olorin was walking unseen among the Elves, indeed he was the wisest of all Maia.

On the Bridge of Khazad-dum the great demon of fire was faced with a servant of the secret fire and the keeper of the ring of fire. That first battle on the bridge you could say was an equal win Gandalf broke the bridge and fell the demon into shadow but it dragged him with him. Of course big G won out in the end, but I can't help think they were well matched oppents.


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## mr underhill (Jun 28, 2002)

youve got to think about it like this...

would tolkien let gandalf die????

he let people think he ws dead though...

oh well id put my money on the G man!!!


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## Galdor (Jun 28, 2002)

That's a good question. In UT it says that when Manwe told Gandalf to go Gandalf said he was to weak to do such a task. Is that because he had just returned from a journey and was tired or that he was to weak to face the challenges his mission in ME would have.


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## mr underhill (Jun 29, 2002)

the balrog is a ver powerful evil creature... it my be able to defeat gandalf!!!!


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## Gary Gamgee (Jun 29, 2002)

Yes Galdor Olorin did not want to go to ME, saying he was too weak and he was afraid of Sauron, or was it just Sauron he was afraid of ? Manwe insisted he should go just for those reasons, knowing Olorin's fear and wisdom would drive him to aid in the destruction of Sauron. 

But why was Gandalf so afraid of the Balrog?


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## DGoeij (Jun 29, 2002)

Well, I know the Istari (all Maiar) were sent back to ME in the bodies of mortal Men. Thus being destroyable. Remember Sauruman's throat being cut? 
Gandalf no doubt had put a lot of time in that magnificent beard and now it would be scorched by some evil Balrog. That would certainly frighten me.


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## Khamul (Jun 30, 2002)

Well they were both Maia, and Im sure that Gandalf was aided in spirit during this battle. The Balrog was not his doom, he was sent to help defeat Sauron, and I dont think he could have perished without the attempt of this.


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## Gary Gamgee (Jun 30, 2002)

Yes Sting I agree, Gandalf had to face the Balrog in order to come back as Gandalf the white. Which in turn helped him to dispose of the threat of Isengard and aid the war of the ring in so many other ways. I do think they were equally matched though and probably the thing that Gandalf an advantage was his ring of power.

BTW I think this was my 500th post


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## Londier (Jul 2, 2002)

It is definetely possible for Gandalf to have died, for Sauruman the most powerful Istari had his neck slit by Wormy.


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## Darth Saruman (Jul 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Londier _
> *It is definetely possible for Gandalf to have died, for Sauruman the most powerful Istari had his neck slit by Wormy. *


Agreed, though I believe that Saruman had, by that time, spent most of his Maiar power on his evil works. He had nothing left!


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## DGoeij (Jul 3, 2002)

From the Unifinished Tales, chapter 'The Istari':
(spelling errors on my account)


> For they came from over the Sea out of the Uttermost West ... Emissaries they were from the Lords of the West, the Valar, who still took counsel for the governance of Middle-Earth, and when the shadow of Sauron began first to stir again took this means of resisting him. For with the consent of eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies as of men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and wearines of earth, able to hunger and thirst and to be slain; thoug because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years.



See, their bodies could be destroyed. 
Sarumans body was killed, but his spirit rose from it and was not allowed to come West. Gandalf was clad in a body that could be slain as well. No wonder he was frightned, although he was very well capable of defeating the Balrog.


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## Gil-Galad (Jul 3, 2002)

Well,first Gandalf wasn't weaker than Sauron.Gandalf just wasn't allowed to use his power against Sauron,because people had to defeat Sauron not Gandalf.
About the fight.In "I" ages while Morgoth was in Arda Balrogs were stronger and after The War of Wrath the were destroyed or went in the depth of earth.I suppose that with the years the became weaker because they hadn't got a place from where to become stronger.I mean that tha great evil (Morgoth)was destroyed and there wasn't such evil which could make them strong again.


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## aragil (Jul 3, 2002)

I thought Gandalf did die- his spirit departed from his body, and returned to the West. Vala, Maia, or Elf- If your spirit is seperated from your body, that is considered 'dying'. Looking at it that way, then Gandalf vs the Balrog was as even as possible, as both combatants passed away (much like Glorfindel vs Balrog or Ecthelion vs Gothmog- geez doesn't anybody ever kill a balrog cleanly?). Of course, Gandalf had the advantage that he hadn't burned bridges out West, so he was allowed to return. I doubt the Balrog's spirit found such mercy in Aman.


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## DGoeij (Jul 3, 2002)

I'm still not too sure about that. He did return in a new form as Gandalf the White, like he was reincarnated. But since his first body arrived in ME by ship, I'm wondering how his second body would have arrived then. We know that after he had defeated the balrog, and had had some troubling dreams and such, he was brought to Lothlorien by Gwahir and that he was very light to the Eagle, but what kind of body he actually had.


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## aragil (Jul 3, 2002)

I thought I read somewhere (Letters?) that Gandalf was allowed to take up his old body- there hadn't been too much decay etc. His new and improved powers were apparently not tied to his body (if my recollection on the Letters quote is correct).


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## Xanaphia (Jul 5, 2002)

Come on Gandalf could kick some Balrog butt any day!!! Gandalf won, because though it was a bit tricky for him, he killed the Balrog and he did, in a sense, not die but came back in an even higher and better form than in his past life. Therefore wasn't Gandalf falling to an aparent death a good thing?


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## Elu Thingol (Jul 5, 2002)

> _Posted by Gil-Galad
> Well,first Gandalf wasn't weaker than Sauron._


_

No I'm afraid Sauron was much stronger than Gandalf




I am Gandalf, Gandalf the White, but *Black is mightier still*.

Click to expand...





"'Dangerous!' cried Gandalf. 'And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, *unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord.*'"

Click to expand...


Gandalf may have been the wisest but he still was not stronger than Sauron_


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## Lantarion (Jul 6, 2002)

But certainly the next strongest being in M-E at that time. After becoming Gandalf the White his powers were (arguably) enhanced, and overall his passion and determination were strengthened, so I think he was greater than Saruman, if not Sauron. This can be seen by the ruthless telling off that Saruman gets from Gandalf at Orthanc. Haha, that's a good chapter.


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## Elu Thingol (Jul 6, 2002)

> _Posted by Pontifex_
> so I think he was greater than Saruman,* if not Sauron.*



Why did you add the "if not Sauron" part? I have already provided evidence clearly showing that Gandalf the White was weaker than Sauron.

Ponti how come you have mod-to-be under your name?


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## Rúmil (Jul 6, 2002)

i don't know if Sauron was mightier than Gandalf. Much of his power had passed into his servants, and of course, the Ring. Melkor, remember, had so lessened his power that way that he was afraid to stand up to Fingolfin or that maia girl pushing the Sun around. In single combat, it's debatable whether Sauron would have defeated Gandalf in full power. I personally think Gandalf would have won, or possibly end it in a double-KO.


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## aragil (Jul 7, 2002)

> I personally think Gandalf would have won, or possibly end it in a double-KO.


Kind of like Rocky Balboa vs. Apollo Creed?

Adding to what Rúmil just said- 'Mighty' is kind of a nebulous concept. If you asked "Who is mightier at forging rings of power?", then I'd probably answer Sauron. If the question was "Who is mightier at reading large numbers of books while maintaining a high comprehension level afterwards?", then I'd say Gandalf. If you asked who would win in hand-to-hand combat, I'd say who knows, neither one of the two are combat specialists. However, at the end of the third age Gandalf had been out beating on Balrogs and Nazgûl, while Sauron had been sitting on his throne, so I'd say Gandalf was in better fighting shape (unless there was a gymn in Barad-dûr)!

Again, re. Elu's quotes, when Gandalf says 'Black is mightier still', this does not necessarily refer to Sauron alone, but perhaps to all the forces that were arrayed against the free peoples. It is also somewhat modest, as the victory of the free peoples over Sauron and his minions was due in no small part to the actions of Gandalf- Black was certainly more confident in it's strength, but it was overthrown by the 'white' all the same.
When Gandalf says that the Dark Lord is more dangerous than himself, this again is a strange concept to get a hold of. Gandalf might be very powerful in combat, but he is not likely to employ the sort of tactics which Sauron used in Numenor, for example. He could therefore admit to being 'less dangerous' without saying who would win in physical combat, which is what I believe this thread is about.


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## Gil-Galad (Jul 7, 2002)

Elu Thingol,you shouldn't forget that Sauron became weaker with the years.After the destruction of Numenor he wasn't so beautiful like before and at the same time,just like Morgoth, he became weaker and weaker while he was developing himself as greater evil.
You shouldn't forget also that Gandalf wasn't allowed to use his power against Sauron and he never showed his real abilities.Even when the Maiar who had to go in ME were chosen he last the last one because he said he wasn't good enough to go there.I'll check in UT and write some more things about that.


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## Rúmil (Jul 7, 2002)

I think "Black is mightier still" refers to the fact that Sauron has put his power into lordhsip and dominion, at the loss and dissipation of his personnal power: i.e. he was a powerful lord with a big army, but lost without his servants to back him - whiwh he made sure nerver happened anyway.


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## Ithrynluin (Jul 7, 2002)

No,I definitely think that Sauron is stronger than Gandalf.I'm sure I read somewhere that Sauron is one of the mightiest of the maiar.
Someone said that Gandalf fought the Balrog and the Nazgul and that made him more powerful-well Gandalf spent the majority of his life in Valinor and he was mainly potent in wisdom,whereas Sauron spent almost all of his life in ME,in the service of Melkor at first and later being his own master,training himself,improving his skills,fighting Beren,Luthien,Huan,Finrod,Elendil,Gil-Galad,Celebrimbor.
Even with his full powers at his disposal,Gandalf still wouldn't be stronger than Sauron.


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## Rúmil (Jul 7, 2002)

Sauron was the mighties of the Maiar in the service of Melkor; the mightiest Maia is Eönwë, then Imarë (see Valaquenta). Olórin (Gandalf) mas a Maia of Manwë; and I'm pretty sure Manwë sent his best Maia after Eönwë for such an errand upon Middle-Earth. Even if Sauron had been among the mightiest maia of Aulë before tuning evil, he would have been of equal dignity with Olórin; I reckon before the making of Arda they would have been of equal power, roughly; but whereas Sauron spent his power into his servants, making him weaker and weaker, Gandalf did not thus squander his power (a persistent theme in Tolkien's work; see in particular Simarillion end of chapter XI:


> And Arien Morgoth feared with a great fear, but dared not come nigh her, having indeed no longer the power; for as he grew in malice, and sent forth from himself the evil that he conceived in lies and creatures of wickedness, his might passed into them and was dispersed, and he himself became ever more bound to the earth, unwilling to issue from his dark strongholds.


 and severally in HOME vol X, Morgoth's Ring.
And as for Sauron gaining experience from being thrashed by Húan the Hound of Lúthien, Isildur etc: well... no. Would you get better at bowing for being repeatedly beaten into the dust by Muhammad Ali? And as for gaining experience from his little victories, I would deem that factor negligable. On the contrary, the encounters in which he was defeated got him badly wounded (Húan), and seperated him from his Ring, in which he had placed all of his power. And when he did win (and slaying a terrified smith probably with only a working apron on is no great feat) it usually had the counterpart of making him revealy his wrath and inner malice, lessening his power of dissimulation and craftiness for the future. But the _main_ thing you can't forget is the Ring: he put much of his power forth into it. With Sauron wearing the Ring, in single comabat, Gandalf would probably have the upper hand, though no doubt with great difficulty; Sauron relied on his servants to aid him. If Sauron was ringless, no question: he would have got a severe thrashing. What was to be feared were Sauron's armies: him innate potency was in them, not in himself any more. One can see it clearly in RotK, when his armies falter and halt when his will is turned from them.


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## Rúmil (Jul 7, 2002)

And as for Gandalf becoming more powerful after fighting the Balrog: that wasn't a direct consequence: his body was killed, but the Valar with Illúvatar's assent gave him extra power and sent him back. There's another thread on this question: http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5067


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## Ithrynluin (Jul 7, 2002)

It certainly isn't stated that Eönwë and Ilmarë are the greatest Maiar.



> Chief among the Maiar of Valinor whose names are remembered in the histories of the Elder Days are Ilmarë, the handmaid of Varda, and Eönwë, the banner-bearer and herald of Manwë, whose might in arms is surpassed by none in Arda.



A powerful warrior-yes.Eönwe would surely be sent if Manwë's wish was to fight him physically.But he sent someone to oust Sauron with wisdom.

There is a saying : "What kills you not makes you stronger" and it can be applied to Sauron (and some others but that doesn't matter now) - I think he grew more cunning and powerful,for example when he came to Numenor - yes,his body was destroyed but he accomplished much and what he lost was worth it.
I think Sauron's main weapon in combat would be fear and not many individuals could withstand it,whether they are superb warriors or total pacifists.Gandalf himself says he was afraid of Sauron and too weak to fight him as a reason not to be sent to ME.
I disagree that Manwë sent "the next best thing" after Eönwë. Eönwë was a powerful warrior and Gandalf was a complete opposite - Gandalf was chosen because Manwë and Varda foresaw that he would emerge victorious in the end.Gandalf is the wisest of the Maiar,his wisdom is greater than Sauron's and that's how he finally beat him.His spirit was warm and eager and he moved the peoples of ME to great deeds.
I don't think Gandalf would beat Sauron even if Sauron was ringless,let
alone if he wore the ring-no way!
Gandalf put forth all his power when fighting the Balrog,his staff was rent asunder and I'm guessing fighting Sauron who is a much more powerful being than the Balrog,would be much much harder.


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## Rúmil (Jul 7, 2002)

About the difference between wisdom and power: yes, you're right, it was by wisdom that Gandalf was to bent the poeple of ME into contest of Sauron's power. But he also has power, physical power: he carried a sword at his side, and used it. He moved people by wisdom, but widom didn't suffice: he needed _authority_, that is a reflection of his inner power. After his "enhancement", the power of his words cured Théoden, and he made Saruman come at call; those incidents are placed there to show how great his power had become. When he fought the Balrog, his was much weaker than as Gandalf the White. And the Balrog, _physically_, is a much stronger being than Sauron; to take a metaphor, Sauron lets his power seep into others, thus dominating them; but he has to spend his power to do so. Without his servants, on which he relies totally, he is useless. In a mental contest, the danger would not be Gandlaf losing: he was too "warm and eager" to lose. The danger would have been taking the place of Sauron afterwards. That was what Olórin was afraid of. And as for becoming stronger after facing near annihilation: I simply don't think Tolkien's mind worked that way. One of his objectives was to show how weak ands useless one becomes if one puts forth all one's "power" into domination of others.


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## Ithrynluin (Jul 7, 2002)

Let's just agree that we disagree,shall we?


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## Rúmil (Jul 7, 2002)

no problem there


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## Gil-Galad (Jul 8, 2002)

hm..Rúmil,I think you're right about Gandalf and his status in Valinor.


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## Kavrangoz (Jul 11, 2002)

First of all i want to mention that Istari are not maiar.And i think that 
Balrog was stronger than Gandalf.But that would make Gandalf so low.
(Remember Glorfindel killing a Balrog)An elf killes a balrog and Gandalf not huh?Tolkien would not let such thing happen.And it may be true that 
Iluvatar himself helped the Gandalf.

note:When Saruman was killed by wormtongue he was not an istari.


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## DGoeij (Jul 11, 2002)

Welcome to the forum Kavrangoz.

Read these threads and find out that the Istari indeed where Maiar. Or even better, see if you can get a copy of the Unfinished tales, which has a full chapter on Istari. But that book is quoted by several people in the following threads as well.

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3900&highlight=Istari

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3917&highlight=Istari

And even when Gandalf kicked him out of the White Council, Saruman remained what he was, an Istari. His spirit rose from the slain body and wished to return West, but he was refused.


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