# Who could take Gothmog?



## Confusticated (Oct 29, 2002)

Which elves or men living in Middle-earth near the end of the third age (if any) might stand a chance against Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs?
Anyone other than Glorfindel? If you know someone, please explain why you think they could do it.


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## Celebthôl (Oct 29, 2002)

Fingolfin! Possibly Beren,


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## Arvedui (Oct 29, 2002)

As neither Fingolfin nor Beren lived in ME during the end of the third age, I guess that rules both of them out.

Among men during that time, I think I personally would rule Aragorn or Faramir among the strongest. But I do not think any of those could stand a chance against Gotmog. That leaves us with the elves or half-elves. Among the strongest here, I count Elrond, Thranduil and perhaps Cirdan.
Cirdan's ability as a fighter, I'm not sure about. Thranduil and Elrond had been there, done that. Of those I believe Elrond is the stronger, with Thranduil close behind.
So my answer to your question is Elrond. He was present when Isildur cut the ring form Saurons hand, and he had the wits to understand that that was their great chance to get rid of Sauron forever. 
IMO Elrond is brave enough, he knows how to fight and he has got brains.


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## Celebthôl (Oct 29, 2002)

Oh i read it wrong, n e way i think Aragorn (Boromir if we count him as living when you write this) they both certainly stood up to the one in moria which was said to be the second most powerful of that time, not really Faramir coz we have never seen him fight, erm Elrond, Definatly Círdan coz he is the oldest in middle earth (he was one of the first (he awoke at the very beggining ) he never went to the blessed realm i think coz he loved the sea to much or somthing and said he would sail away with the last great ships(he also fought in the battle of the last alliance i think it was said in the sil)) and thranduil too, maybe even legolas coz he could shoot the balrog squaire in the eye with his keen shot!


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## Grond (Oct 29, 2002)

I'd have to go with Elladan and Elrohir. They had the blood of both the greatest of the Elves and the greatest of the Men. I would also include Aragorn and Faramir in the group as well because the blood of Numenor ran nearly pure in their veins. I would include Prince Imrahil because he was a wild card. A man by race but with an Elvish strain of Amroth and Nimrodel that is only hinted at in the works. Lastly, I think the Mouth of Sauron would likely give Gothmog a good battle. He sounded as if he was corrupt and perverted enough to put up a good fight... and he was theorized to be a Black Numenorean himself.


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## Maedhros (Oct 29, 2002)

I would venture that only Glorfindel or Gandalf, and both of the them would perish fighting Gothmog. No men has a chance against him. Remeber the words of Gandalf in Moria.
As of Elrond or Círdan, remember that it took the fairest of the Noldor to defeat Gothmog.
Book of Lost Tales: Fall of Gondolin


> , but Ecthelion lay by the fountain; and that stand was the most stubborn-valiant that is remembered in all the songs or in any tale.


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## Confusticated (Oct 29, 2002)

I'm with Grond about Elladan, Elrohir and Aragorn.
Another who may have had a chance, is Eomer in his wrath after he thought his sister was dead.


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## Ithrynluin (Oct 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Arvedui _
> *So my answer to your question is Elrond. He was present when Isildur cut the ring form Saurons hand, and he had the wits to understand that that was their great chance to get rid of Sauron forever.
> IMO Elrond is brave enough, he knows how to fight and he has got brains. *



Understanding alone is not enough to defeat a Balrog,especially the mightiest one. Where does all this "Elrond being a warrior" come from? Wasn't he the banner-bearer of Gil-Galad. And he is a loremaster first and foremost.


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## Grond (Oct 29, 2002)

Elrond was a great military commander. If you read Unfinished Tales, he led the forces of Gil-galad in an attempt to rescue the Noldor of Eregion but was forced to the North and West by Sauron's forces. He did link up with the Noldorian survivors and, with them, founded Imladris as a refuge and fortress in the East of Eriador. He was a scholar, a leader and a warrior.


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## Turgon (Oct 29, 2002)

I would go with Galadriel. As the most powerful of the Noldor remaining in Middle-earth at the end of the third age, as a wielder of a ring of power, and as a lady of high courage and iron-will; I think she, if anybody, stood a chance. Sure she was not a warrior, but then neither was Gandalf, and I think in her alone did a power equal to that possessed by the great elf-lords of the Eldar days still reside. 

Hehe! Glad the Impaler... the mind boggles...


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## Grond (Oct 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Turgon _
> *I would go with Galadriel. As the most powerful of the Noldor remaining in Middle-earth at the end of the third age, as a wielder of a ring of power, and as a lady of high courage and iron-will; I think she, if anybody, stood a chance. Sure she was not a warrior, but then neither was Gandalf, and I think in her alone did a power equal to that possessed by the great elf-lords of the Eldar days still reside.
> 
> Hehe! Glad the Impaler... the mind boggles... *


 How could I not have included Galadriel??!! Of course, she would be my first choice (had I thought of her). And Turgon, either in HoMe or the Letters, Tolkien speaks of Galadriel being the equal of any Elf-male in Aman. I'll look up the quotes to support your candidate.


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## Turgon (Oct 29, 2002)

I think I know which quote you mean Grond... it's in UT if I remember rightly... let me have a look...


> _from UT 'The History of Galadriel and Celeborn'_
> 'Her mother-name was Nerwen ("man-maiden"), and she grew to be tall beyond the measure even of the women of the Noldor; she was strong of body, mind, and will, a match for both the loremasters and the athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth.'



That's quote I had in mind anyway. Yeah, my money is definitely on Galadriel...


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## Confusticated (Oct 29, 2002)

Here I was thinking that there must be some _unnamed_ calaquendi around who could do the job, and I neglected to conider Galadriel, the most powerful elf in Middle-earth at the time..


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## Arvedui (Oct 31, 2002)

I'll join the "How could I forget" postings. Galadriel of course.


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## Celebthôl (Oct 31, 2002)

I beleive glorfindell could aswell coz appaently he was a earlyier form of an Istarí (not a wizard but to help overthrow Sauron)


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## Maedhros (Oct 31, 2002)

> I would go with Galadriel.


Hmmm. I wouldn't.
Glorfindel of the Golden Flower.


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## Aiwendil2 (Oct 31, 2002)

> Which elves or men living in Middle-earth near the end of the third age (if any) might stand a chance against Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs?
> Anyone other than Glorfindel? If you know someone, please explain why you think they could do it.



I'm not sure whether Glorfindel could have stood up to him, actually. The question is how far superior Gothmog was to the other Balrogs. I'd say he was significantly more powerful (just a guess, though). Fingolfin would stand a good chance against him; he even held his own against Morgoth. Feanor might have been able to take him in a one on one confrontation; remember, he was only slain after he was surrounded by Balrogs. The same goes for Fingon, who was doing fairly well until a second Balrog attacked him from behind. I'd put Turin, Beren, Earendil, and Glorfindel in the "maybe" category.


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## Turgon (Oct 31, 2002)

Ah! But the question is - Who at the end of the Third Age could have taken on Gothmog? I'm sure there are a lot of candidates from the First Age well suited to the task. Personally I'm not sure if any mortal man could have stood up to Gothmog, not even the great heroes of the Silmarillion....


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## Maedhros (Oct 31, 2002)

Túrin perhaps, but Eärendil? Definitely not Tuor.


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## Confusticated (Oct 31, 2002)

Well I;m not sure Glorfindel could take Gothmog out either. I ask for people other than him because I estimate that a lot of people would pick him. I threw in "Lord of Balrogs" for those who haven't read The Silmarillion to get an idea that this Balrog was probably more powerful that the one in Moria.
I do not expect that any person of the third age could beat Gothmog.
If anyone did it would be surpising and unexpected. I wonder would anyone have thought Ecthelion could do it before he did?
The root of this question was just the thought that the elves were much weaker during the third age than those of the first age.
I also think that had Gothmog survived into the third age and would be destroyed during it that his destruction would have been prophesized(sp?) to some degree, so if he was there someone wise person might know it was coming, or have an idea of who would do this.


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## Turgon (Oct 31, 2002)

Mmm... that's interesting Confusticated... and puts me in mind of a new candidate: Sauron. If Gothmog had survived into the Third Age, I would envision a great fight between these two, a real struggle for dominance. Who would be the true inheritor of Melkor's Malice? Both were Lieutenants of Morgoth, both, perhaps, would have an equal claim to succeed him. The Power of Gothmog vs the Cunning of Sauron: who would emerge triumphant?


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## Confusticated (Oct 31, 2002)

While Sauron isn't an answer to the question about men and elves, this is interesting and fun.
Well if Gothmog and Sauron were both around to fight over who gets control, I don't think both of them would have made it into the third age. 
So for this to happen I'll have to say that Gothmog would have to suddeny shown up in the third age from the deeps on the world like that Moria Balrog. He would have to build himself an army and this might be hard to do because balrogs do not speak (as far as I know, correct me if I"m wrong). He could probably control people and orcs with fear to a degree but how would he communicate specific commands to them? He'd probably need a human mastermind as a link between himself and his army, but for this to be effective the human would have to know so much that he'd likely end up betraying Gothmog for the One Ring. He wouldn't have the faithful servants that Sauron had in the Nazgul. Treachery would get him if he did manage to build an army.



Anyone else want to add to this, or go in another direction?


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## Celebthôl (Nov 1, 2002)

The root of this question was just the thought that the elves were much weaker during the third age than those of the first age.

Very good point Confusticated, so there are no powerful fighters how come they don't loose any battles (i'm contradicting you just asking, coz in the sil they are amazing fighters and they allways loose but in the 3rd age they are not as good fighters and they win loads)

Celeb


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## Ithrynluin (Nov 1, 2002)

I too will join the "I totally forgot about Galadriel."
I don't think anyone besides her and Glorfindel could have defeated the Balrog.


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## Aiwendil2 (Nov 1, 2002)

> Túrin perhaps, but Eärendil?



Well, he slew Ancalagon (at least until the 1960s).



> Definitely not Tuor.



Agreed. 



> If anyone did it would be surpising and unexpected. I wonder would anyone have thought Ecthelion could do it before he did?



Very good point.

As for the Third Age: if Gandalf counts as a Man, he might be a reasonable answer. His credentials are just as good as Glorfindel's, anyway. Logically then, Saruman should also stand a chance. His power was more in knowledge and skill, though, so in an actual fight he might not have done as well as Gandalf. And there's always Radagast!


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## Ithrynluin (Nov 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Grond _
> *Elrond was a great military commander. If you read Unfinished Tales, he led the forces of Gil-galad in an attempt to rescue the Noldor of Eregion but was forced to the North and West by Sauron's forces. He did link up with the Noldorian survivors and, with them, founded Imladris as a refuge and fortress in the East of Eriador. He was a scholar, a leader and a warrior. *



Of course he was.Does being a military commander necessarily make you an all powerful warrior,or can that also mean that you "only" possess the wisdom and knowledge needed to lead an army,but you actually aren't much of a warrior yourself?
Denethor and his sons were all great military commanders,Aragorn was too,Theoden and Eomer and Eowyn perhaps,Elrond's sons..I daresay there were more. But I doubt any of these could defeat a Balrog.

EDIT: Just a thought - could Celeborn or Gildor defeat a Balrog?


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## Confusticated (Jan 10, 2003)

Okay, I have no reason to think Galadriel would have any more of a chance at destroying Gothmog than any of the calaquendi that remained.
She was powerful, but how would she use this power to take down Gothmog?

Gildor? I don't think he has more of a chance than the others. 
But if Gothmog even looks at him I'll get a helmet like Ecthelion's and meet him on a ledge like Glorfindel met the balrog... hehe... "Poiny hat! Pointy hat for the Noldor!"... and then I'll die ... he'll whip me into the cliff side and then stomp my body thrice (wounding his foot on my pointy hat at least!) then kick my body to send it flying into the air and crashing into a bed of sharp rocks below.

Celeborn? I see no reason that he should be able to defeat a balrog.

If 500 men and elves lined up and fought Gothmog 1 on 1, eventually one must beat him by chance... some random fluke, perfect timing... I think that under the right circumstances anyone might do it.


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