# Eagles



## Helcaraxë (May 24, 2003)

Are Eagles immortal? I think this is possible, because Thorondor seems to have been alive for a while. However, this doesn't mean he's immortal, and there is no record of him dying in battle. Still, Gwyahir was alive for hundreds of years and had shown no indication of dying at the end of te third age.


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## BlackCaptain (May 24, 2003)

Yes, I think they're immortal. They're the same race... or I should say simalar race to the Maia, which are Ainu, which are Immortal. I have no reason to think they're mortal


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## Beleg (May 24, 2003)

If they are Immortal then what happened to Thorondir?


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## Ithrynluin (May 24, 2003)

Perhaps Thorondor, being the first 'king' of the Eagles, returned to Manwë?

Anyway, I do not think they are immortal. Perhaps the forefather of the race (Thorondor?) might have been a Maia who mated with an eagle but otherwise they are mortal IMHO.


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## Aulë (May 25, 2003)

Quoth EoA:

All the definite 'sightings' of Thorondor take place during the First Age. We first encounter him helping Fingon rescue Maedhros from Thangorodrim when the Age had hardly begun, and he survived at least long enough to take part in the War of Wrath at the end of the Age.

Thorondor's ultimate origins are uncertain, but he seems to have existed before the beginning of the First Age - perhaps a very long time before. The Silmarillion tells us that the race of Eagles were sent by Manwë to watch over the Noldor who had travelled back to Middle-earth. Earlier versions of the story published in _The History of Middle-earth_ state more explicitly that Thorondor was one of these, and that he even remained in contact with Manwë during the First Age.

Thorondor's fate is equally uncertain. The only clue is a passage that appears in _The Lord of the Rings_, referring to '...old Thorondor, who built his eyries in the inaccessible peaks of the Encircling Mountains when Middle-earth was young.' It's plain from this that Thorondor departed Middle-earth some time after the end of the First Age. Perhaps the greatest Eagle of them all simply died of old age, but his mighty body carried a spirit sent by Eru, so perhaps, just possibly, he flew back to his master's halls on Taniquetil and still soars in the airs of the Undying Lands.


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## Inderjit S (May 25, 2003)

Tolkien makes a interesting comment on the Eagle's ability to hear for those who called for the help of the Valar/Manwe:



> In Manwe's last speech: 'In the mountains the Eagles shall house and hear the voices who call upon us'


 _Of Ents and Eagles; HoME 11_ 

One wonders then, about the bad-natured Eagles that are mentioned in _The Hobbit_ 

On the possibility of Eagles being Maia, Tolkien comments on it in _Myths Transformed (HoME 10)_ to see the 



> But true rational creatures 'speaking people' are all of 'humanoid' form. Only the Valar and Maiar are intelligences that can assume forms of Arda at will. Huan and Sornotar could be Maiar- emmisaries of Manwe. But unfortunately in LoTR Gwahir and Landroval are said to be descendants of Sornotar



But Tolkien latter concludes, when talking about whether speech was a sign that Orcs had fea.



> The same sort of thing may be said of Huan and the Eagles that they were taught language by tha Valar and raised to a higher level but still had no fea



IMO, the Eagles may have been immortal, or they may have had the longeveal life that was associated with the beasts of Aman, but I always thought that Thorondor went back to Manwe.

I'd just like to add that 'Sornotar', is the Quenya form of 'Thorondor' which Tolkien seemed to favour in some of his latter essays such as the 'Wanderings of Hurin'.


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## Holly (Jun 7, 2003)

No, Eagles are not immortal


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## Mahal (Jun 7, 2003)

No...I do not think Eagles where immortal. I thought that they were made with the music...because the Ainur you could invent things with the music. I think that this is also true with the dragons.


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## Lantarion (Jun 8, 2003)

I've read somewhere that Eagles were a "race akin to the Maiar" or something like that.. Perhaps the eagles of Manwë and the "normal" eagles of Middle-earth are to be differentiated?


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## Helcaraxë (Jun 9, 2003)

I think I heard that too. But maybe in the community of normal eagles there were traces of the Eagles of Manwe, Like a society mainly with lower classes, but with upper classes mingled in slightly. Perhaps Gwaihir was one of this and because of this, he was made king.


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## Evenstar373 (Jul 2, 2003)

I don't know but i think Tolkien realy realy liked Eagles there in a lot of his books


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## BlackCaptain (Jul 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Evenstar373 _
> *I don't know but i think Tolkien realy realy liked Eagles there in a lot of his books *



Me too!   . For some reason they always seem to get everyone out of really tight jams.


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## Feanorian (Jul 2, 2003)

This is my theory on Eagles:

In the beginning they were indeed Maiar sent by Manwe to Middle Earth to watch over the Children of Eru. Throughout the first two ages especially the first the eagles played a large roll in the affairs of Middle Earth and brought word to Manwe of the Noldor. However as time progressed and the Elves began to fade and men began to become the prominent race the use of Maiar was less important because there was no Sauron or Morogoth, there worst enemies were men themselves. So eventually the eagle bodies did not need to be incarnate Maia and the spirits returned to Valinor and the eagles grew into just an another species. 

Now that was not put together very well but hey its late and Ive been up since 6am.


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## Beleg (Jul 3, 2003)

> This is my theory on Eagles:
> 
> In the beginning they were indeed Maiar sent by Manwe to Middle Earth to watch over the Children of Eru. Throughout the first two ages especially the first the eagles played a large roll in the affairs of Middle Earth and brought word to Manwe of the Noldor. However as time progressed and the Elves began to fade and men began to become the prominent race the use of Maiar was less important because there was no Sauron or Morogoth, there worst enemies were men themselves. So eventually the eagle bodies did not need to be incarnate Maia and the spirits returned to Valinor and the eagles grew into just an another species.
> 
> Now that was not put together very well but hey its late and Ive been up since 6am.



You are contradicting yourself in the theory. You say that Eagle's are maiar but later you imply that they are actually species whose bodies are being used by Maiar.


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## Feanorian (Jul 3, 2003)

As I said...bad wording 

I meant to say that the later Eagles speciffically those of the third age were not Maiar though they may have descended from Eagles who were.


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## Beleg (Jul 3, 2003)

> I meant to say that the later Eagles speciffically those of the third age were not Maiar though they may have descended from Eagles who were.



Gwahir and Landroval were present there in the first age also.


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## Inderjit S (Oct 21, 2003)

The quotes I have provided from _Myths Transformed_ show that Tolkien rejected the idea of Maiar Eagles and his view was that they were beasts.


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## Ithrynluin (Oct 21, 2003)

Inderjit, I don't see how the quote from Myths Transformed shows that Eagles, at least some of them (the first ones most likely), were not Maiar.

Just like Ungoliant was supposedly a (quasi) Ainu, and bred with beasts to 'produce' such creatures as Shelob (who seemed rather Maia-like in terms of power, but was in fact not one, at least not fully), so too the first Eagles could have been Maiar who bred with incarnates to produce offspring.


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## Inderjit S (Oct 25, 2003)

If Tolkien envisione the Eagles as 'Maia' then there would be no need for him to seek explanations for them being beasts raised to a 'higher level'. Tolkien was usnure as to what Eagles (And Huan) were and it seems he settled on them being beasts.


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## Helcaraxë (Nov 2, 2003)

Well, Ungoliant certainly does not fit the criteria of being an Ainu or partial Ainu, but Tolkien still stated that she was akin to them. I think that when Tolkien says that they were sent by Manwe, he implies that they were spirits akin to ainu.


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## Inderjit S (Nov 4, 2003)

How can they be 'spirits akin to Ainu' when 'Ainur' constitutes all spirits?


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## Ithrynluin (Nov 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Inderjit S _
> *If Tolkien envisione the Eagles as 'Maia' then there would be no need for him to seek explanations for them being beasts raised to a 'higher level'. Tolkien was usnure as to what Eagles (And Huan) were and it seems he settled on them being beasts. *



If you're taking Myths Transformed as the source for your assertions, then it should be plain enough that Tolkien put forth theories and thoughts, but didn't settle on anything definitely.



> Huan and Sorontar could be Maiar - emissaries of Manwe.
> But unfortunately in The Lord of the Rings Gwaehir and Landroval are said to be descendants of Sorontar.



The above quote suggests they might be Maiar. It also negates the possibility of Gwaihir and Landroval being Maiar, but that doesn't make the possibility that Huan 



> Living things in Aman. As the Valar would robe themselves like the Children, many of the Maiar robed themselves like other lesser living things, as trees, flowers, beasts. ([color=sky blue]Huan[/color].)



This passage certainly has a strong feel of certainty to it.



> But again - would Eru provide fear for such creatures? For
> the Eagles etc. perhaps. But not for Orcs.



Make of that what you will.



> The same sort of thing may be said of Huan and the Eagles: they were taught language by the Valar, and raised to a higher level - but they still had no fear.



'The same sort of thing' refers to the theory that _'talking is not necessarily the sign of a possession of a rational soul or fëa'_. As is the case with the rest of the above quotes, no conclusion can be drawn from this quote regarding (at least some of) the Eagles (Thorondor), and Huan, being Maiar.

All quotes from HoME X: Myths Transformed.


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