# Melian's influence.



## Confusticated (Oct 7, 2002)

I have observed that many actions of Valar and Maiar during the first age had infuences that last through the third age but those of Melian are unique (I wont tell why I think this yet ).


> of Melian from_ of Thingol and Melian_
> *She was akin before the World was made to Yavanna herself; and in that time when the Quendi awoke beside the waters of Cuiviénen she departed from Valinor and came to the Hither Lands, and there she filled the silence of Middle-earth before the dawn with her voice and the voices of her birds.*





> *and it chanced on a time that he came alone to the starlit wood of Nan Elmoth, and there suddenly he heard the song of nightingales. Then an enchantment fell on him, and he stood still, and afar off beyond the voices of the lómelindi he heard the voice of Melian, and it filled all his heart with wonder and desire. He forgot then utterly all his people and all the purposes of his mind, and following the birds under the shadow of the trees he passed deep into Nan Elmoth and was lost. But he came at last to a glade open to the stars, and there Melian stood; and out of the darkness he looked at her, and the light of Aman was in her face.
> She spoke no word; but being filled with love Elwë came to her and took her hand, and straightway a spell was laid on him, so that they stood thus while long years were measured by the wheeling stars above them; and the trees of Nan Elmoth grew tall and dark before they spoke any word.*


Was this meeting more than chance?
Did Melian go into this with the intention of aiding the elves, or did she simply just love Thingol?


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## gate7ole (Oct 7, 2002)

> Was this meeting more than chance?


 Tolkien has showed us many examples that chance never works alone in determining the future. It is always the destiny of people that drive the events. Melian ment to meet Thingol (as Bilbo ment to find the Ring). The fact that Melian is a Maia may imply that she perceived her future and knew this meeting with an elf.
Now, about the motives of Melian, they can't just be her love towards Thingol. She could as well marry him and take him and his folk to Valinor by the aid of the Valar, since this was their intention and there was yet no Hiding of Valinor. Thus, the intentions of Melian's stay in ME should be besides her love to Thingol, to aid all the elves that never got to Valinor and the Valar seemed to forsake them. She seemed to have a great love for ME before the coming of the elves and she probably didn't want to abandon it and the new inhabitands.
Lastly lets consider her great influence over the destinies of men and elves during all the ages. Elrond and Elros were her descendants, and those two were the most influential people of ME. Elros was the first king of Numenor and his line (though not direct), lasted until the 4th Afe with Aragorn. Elrond's contribution is well known. No other Vala can boast of having a greater influence, and this happens because Melian was the only one to live in ME. After the Hiding of Valinor, only Ulmo had ever visited ME, until the War of Wrath. Thus Melian being the only Ainu who was involved in the events of First Age, played a great part in the later history of ME through her descendants.


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## Confusticated (Oct 7, 2002)

So you think both: that the meeting was not chance, and that there more to it than Melian's love for Thingol.
I think either of these things would stand alone, so maybe it was not both.


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## gate7ole (Oct 7, 2002)

I can understand Melian loving deeply Thingol so that she could abandon Valinor for him, but as I said, was it necessary? Couldn't they just return to Aman with Thingol's folk?
That's why I say that it must be something else, the love of Melian for ME and its new inhabidants that made her stay and not leave ME alone.


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## lindil (Oct 16, 2002)

I think there was a pride in Thingol, that he would rather have been a big fish in a small pond.


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 16, 2002)

I think not only the inhabitants made Melian stay in ME,but also the whole world.She loved to stay in ME to walk,to sing, to enjoy the Nature.And then she met Thigol.For me he is just the official reason for her staying in ME.


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## Ravenna (Oct 19, 2002)

Just a wild theory here, but it sort of fits.
Many of the Valar and Maiar appear to have a measure of foresightedness, some obviously more than others. If Melian had this gift, although I appreciate that it is not stated anywhere that she did. It is possible that she knew in some manner, maybe only vaguely, that from her and Thingol would spring the means to defeat the evil of Morgoth (and Sauron in due time), and that this would not happen if Thingol went to Aman.
This is not to discount any of the reasons given elsewhere in this thread, as I believe them also to be valid, but it would explain her somewhat aberrant (for one of the Ainur) behaviour in taking living form and settling down in ME with Thingol.


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 19, 2002)

Or probably Thingol was so hot that even a Maia wasn't able to resist on his charming face and etc


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## Confusticated (Oct 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ravenna _
> *Just a wild theory here, but it sort of fits.
> Many of the Valar and Maiar appear to have a measure of foresightedness, some obviously more than others. If Melian had this gift, although I appreciate that it is not stated anywhere that she did.*


Wild theory??This is what we are discussing.
She absolutely did have this gift of foresight. For example she knew that a man would make his way into Doriath because a geat doom was on him. I also think, but can not prove, that she knew that her child's children and their children for generations to come would be major players. But this forsight may have become more vague in proportion with the distance into the future. I think we have no way to know for sure exactly how much Melian knew.


> It is possible that she knew in some manner, maybe only vaguely, that from her and Thingol would spring the means to defeat the evil of Morgoth (and Sauron in due time), and that this would not happen if Thingol went to Aman.


As for the defeat of Morgoth: I do not know if she foresaw Earendil in specific but if she did then yes, I would say that she would know that this could not happen if her and Thingol had gone to Aman instead of staying in Middle-earth.
As for Sauron, I have no proof but I believe she probably had some vague knowing that her influence would last forever in the fight against evil.


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## Melian (Oct 21, 2002)

As this post obviously concerns some imprudent deals of my wild youth,I feel obliged to cast some light over the matter. 
All in all,it concludes in one thing.It's a dangerous job for Maia and Elvish maids walking out in those Elvish woods,you know.There you are easily enchented by most unlikely persons such as Thingol,and my daughter Luthien was unlucky to repeat my mistake by meeting Beren on such a walk.(Definitely,Beren is quite much more a man than Thingol-in the other,not racial sense).And so,I was blinded,fell in love with him and started doing unique and pretty things that made me famous.In fact,I was very pleased to be so mighty. But,I must confess,I'm too silly to be so creative and resourceful,you know!After all,I'm just a simple blonde .


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Melian _
> *As this post obviously concerns some imprudent deals of my wild youth,I feel obliged to cast some light over the matter.
> All in all,it concludes in one thing.It's a dangerous job for Maia and Elvish maids walking out in those Elvish woods,you know.There you are easily enchented by most unlikely persons such as Thingol,and my daughter Luthien was unlucky to repeat my mistake by meeting Beren on such a walk.(Definitely,Beren is quite much more a man than Thingol-in the other,not racial sense).And so,I was blinded,fell in love with him and started doing unique and pretty things that made me famous.In fact,I was very pleased to be so mighty. But,I must confess,I'm too silly to be so creative and resourceful,you know!After all,I'm just a simple blonde . *


Welcome back!I haven't see you since July in the forum and I'm glad you're back.
   
Having in mind your wild youth I think you didn't do the best thing when you decided to stay with Thingol(such things happen when you walk alone in the wood).
As it's concerning Luthien I think it's a gene which caused her meet with Beren in the wood too


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## Grond (Oct 25, 2002)

> _from The Silmarillion, Of Thingol and Melian_
> Now when their journey was near its end, as has been told, the people of the Teleri rested long in East Beleriand, beyond the river Gelion; and at that time many of the Noldor still lay to the westward, in those forests that were afterwards named Neldoreth and Region. Elwë, lord of the Teleri, went often through the great woods to seek out Finwë his friend in the dwellings of the Noldor; and it chanced on a time that *he came alone to the starlit wood of Nan Elmoth,* and there suddenly he heard the song of nightingales. Then an enchantment fell on him, and he stood still, and afar off beyond the voices of the lómelindi he heard the voice of Melian, and it filled all his heart with wonder and desire. He forgot then utterly all his people and all the purposes of his mind, and following the birds under the shadow of the trees he passed deep into Nan Elmoth and was lost. But he came at last to a glade open to the stars, and there Melian stood; and out of the darkness he looked at her, and the light of Aman was in her face.





> _from The Silmarillion, Of Beren and Luthien_
> It is told in the Lay of Leithian that Beren came stumbling into Doriath grey and bowed as with many years of woe, so great had been the torment of the road. *But wandering in the summer in the woods of Neldoreth he came upon Lúthien,* daughter of Thingol and Melian, at a time of evening under moonrise, as she danced upon the unfading grass in the glades beside Esgalduin. Then all memory of his pain departed from him, and he fell into an enchantment; for Lúthien was the most beautiful of all the Children of Ilúvatar.





> _from Lord of the Rings, Appendix A_
> 'The next day and the hour of sunset Aragorn walked *alone in the woods,* and his heart was high within him; and he sang, for he was full of hope and the world was fair. and suddenly even as he sang he saw a maiden walking on a greensward among the white stems of the birches; and he halted amazed, thinking that he had strayed into a dream, or else that he had received the gift of the Elf-minstrels, who can make the things of which they sing appear before the eyes of those that listen.
> 
> 'For Aragorn had been singing a part of the Lay of Lúthien which tells of the meeting of Lúthien and Beren in the forest of Neldoreth. And behold! there Lúthien walked before his eyes in Rivendell, clad in a mantle of silver and blue, fair as the twilight in Elven-home; her dark hair strayed in a sudden wind, and her brows were bound with gems like stars.


It sounds to me like the woods of Middle-earth are very romantic places.


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 25, 2002)

Obviously,most of our favourite couples meet there. 
Melian&Thingol;Luthien&Beren;Aragorn&Arwen......in fact I should post such a thread,about their meetings.


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## Melian (Oct 29, 2002)

Well,romantic and dangerous!I suffered it myself with a bore like Thingol.


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## Gil-Galad (Nov 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Melian _
> *Well,romantic and dangerous!I suffered it myself with a bore like Thingol. *


I'm sure you sufferd so much.Don't cry my favourite Maia!


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