# Did turin fight war of wrath?



## Turin_Turambar (Jun 20, 2021)

This topic may have been discussed before. But in this article, I think the author says that Turin was both in the War of Wrath and in Dagor Dagorath. What do you think? Was Turin present in both of these wars?








Why Did Tolkien Leave Out the Second Prophecy of Mandos?


Q: Why Did Tolkien Leave Out the Second Prophecy of Mandos? ANSWER: J.R.R. Tolkien did not write the published Silmarillion, which was his son Christopher’s dedicated attempt to publish somet…



middle-earth.xenite.org


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## Elthir (Jun 20, 2021)

Did Túrin fight in the Wrath of War?

According to Tolkien's _latest_ written idea (that we know of _so far_), I'd say "yes" . . . but we, the readers, don't know how the matter was going to be handled.

My *total guess* is that Túrin was* not *going to be mentioned in the actual Silmarillion chapter that deals with this War, and that Readers would then find/stumble across Andreth's prophecy in another source, possibly even in a marginal note to some other text, and then say: *Oh . . . very interesting!*

And *if* JRRT was to publish this prophecy and make it a part of the _internal_ world of Middle-earth, I'm not sure even Christopher Tolkien could say what his father intended to do with Túrin concerning an End of Times scenario -- like *a* Dagor Dagorath ("Battle of Battles") scenario, which generally speaking, had been revised from a Prophecy of Mandos to a Mannish Myth in any case. 

Was Túrin going to appear in _both_ a Mannish Prophecy and a Mannish Myth concerning the End of Days?

Well . . . he is a Man! *Maybe Who Knows!*

Edited in from a more recent thread:

That said, in the following description, some of the wording could arguably suggest Turin was not to take part in an End of Days scenario -- but then again, if that scenario is a Mannish Myth, Turin seems a likely candidate in any case: thus my *Maybe Who Knows*.

*Christopher Tolkien* writes (The Problem of Ros):

"In this last reappearance of the mysterious and fluctuating idea the prophecy is put into the mouth of Andreth, the Wise-woman of the House of Beor: *Turin will "return from the Dead" before his final departure, and his last deed within the Circles of the World will be the slaying of the Great Dragon, Ancalagon the Black.*

"Andreth prophesies of the Last Battle at the end of the Elder Days (the sense in which the term 'Last Battle' is used shortly after-wards in this text, p. 371); but in all the early texts (the Quenta, IV.160; the Annals of Beleriand, IV.309, V.144; the Quenta Silmarillion, V.329) it was Earendil who destroyed Ancalagon.] "


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## Turin_Turambar (Jul 4, 2021)

This topic may have been discussed before. But in this article, I think the author says that Turin was both in the War of Wrath and in Dagor Dagorath. What do you think? Was Turin present in both of these wars?








Why Did Tolkien Leave Out the Second Prophecy of Mandos?


Q: Why Did Tolkien Leave Out the Second Prophecy of Mandos? ANSWER: J.R.R. Tolkien did not write the published Silmarillion, which was his son Christopher’s dedicated attempt to publish somet…



middle-earth.xenite.org


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## Elthir (Jul 4, 2021)

Hmm. I'm know I'm bad at computering, but right now the link takes me to a page about bearing false witness.

🐾


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## Erestor Arcamen (Jul 4, 2021)

Elthir said:


> Hmm. I'm know I'm bad at computering, but right now the link takes me to a page about bearing false witness.
> 
> 🐾


Seems to be an issue with Michael Martinez's blog. I went to the link directly and same thing.


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## Turin_Turambar (Sep 9, 2021)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> Seems to be an issue with Michael Martinez's blog. I went to the link directly and same thing.


I haven't been able to reach this site for a long time anyway. I think there is a problem with the site.


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 9, 2021)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> This topic may have been discussed before. But in this article, I think the author says that Turin was both in the War of Wrath and in Dagor Dagorath. What do you think? Was Turin present in both of these wars?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can't seem to get it to open on Firefox but using Microsoft Edge allowed me to go. How strange.


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## Elthir (Sep 9, 2021)

Waitamminit . . . how many War or Wrath 
threads are there?

I only have so many fingers to keep count!


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 9, 2021)

Elthir said:


> Waitamminit . . . how many War or Wrath
> threads are there?
> 
> I only have so many fingers to keep count!


Enough. lol


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## Turin_Turambar (Jul 30, 2022)

Unfortunately, Tolkien died before Andreth in Problem of Ros could make his prophecy compatible with Dagor Dagorath prophecy. Most Tolkien fans consider the Andreth prophecy to be canon, as Turin's fighting in the war of wrath explained Turin's return in the dagor dagorath. So do you think it's canon for Turin to come back and fight in the war of wrath? Do you think did Turin fought in the war of wrath?


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## d4rk3lf (Jul 31, 2022)

It is canon that Turin DID NOT fought in the War of wrath. 

I see you opened many threads with similar questions, and I think you take Dagor Dagorath too seriously. 
It was just Tolkien idea for the final battle - nothing else. 
We don't know if he would abandon that idea, or expand on it. 
Yet, you're acting like it's the most definitive thing Tolkien written, out of everything. 

And yes, Turin Turambar was not strongest in Middle Earth... not even close to being strongest!

----------------
LOL, you have same thread here, started by you: 









Did turin fight war of wrath?


This topic may have been discussed before. But in this article, I think the author says that Turin was both in the War of Wrath and in Dagor Dagorath. What do you think? Was Turin present in both of these wars? https://middle-earth.xenite.org/why-did-tolkien-leave-out-the-second-prophecy-of-mandos/




www.thetolkienforum.com





Why opening another one?


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## Erestor Arcamen (Jul 31, 2022)

Merged duplicates


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## Turin_Turambar (Jul 31, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> It is canon that Turin DID NOT fought in the War of wrath.
> 
> I see you opened many threads with similar questions, and I think you take Dagor Dagorath too seriously.
> It was just Tolkien idea for the final battle - nothing else.
> ...


The reason I opened a thread similar to the one I opened earlier is because current topic asks whether it is canon that according to Andreth'st prophecy, Turin fought in the war of wrath. Also, Turin is underestimated in everyone's eyes. Remember that Turin slew Glaurung, the father of dragons, who inflicted the heaviest losses on the armies of the Noldor in many battles. After tulkas morgotha was defeated in dagor dagorath, I think Turin defeated Morgoth in a one-on-one duel. So the best elven warrior did what Fingolfin couldn't. If you think Tulkas wasn't defeated by Morgoth because it is not written in the books and sources that Tulkas was defeated, I have only one word to say. If Morgoth had not been able to defeat Tulkas, it would have been Tulkas, not Turin, who would have killed Morgoth.


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## Turin_Turambar (Jul 31, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> Merged duplicates


I didn't know I opened a topic like this before. a little forgetfulness. I'm sorry.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Jul 31, 2022)

No worries at all I just combined so that the relevant comments go together 😊


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## d4rk3lf (Jul 31, 2022)

Sure. 
Turin Turambar could defeat Illuvatar himself with one hand tied behind.


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## Turin_Turambar (Jul 31, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> Sure.
> Turin Turambar could defeat Illuvatar himself with one hand tied behind.


eru represents the only god of the heavenly religions in the universe we live in in the mythology of middle earth. Say eru is jesus or allah if you want. he is the creator of everything in mythology and tolkien put eru in mythology to represent the god of the heavenly religions. Turin killing the eru is as absurd as a knight in the real universe defying god and killing him. Elves said that for Turin cannot be killed unless they are shot with arrows from afar. However, I don't understand why everyone chooses the elves.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jul 31, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> Why opening another one?


You should see the threads on Khamul. 😄


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## Elthir (Aug 1, 2022)

Turin_Turambar said:


> Unfortunately, Tolkien died before Andreth in Problem of Ros could make his prophecy compatible with Dagor Dagorath prophecy.



But that assumes that Tolkien _intended_ to make the prophecy of Andreth "compatible" with the Dagor Dagorath *Numenorean Myth* (the Second Prophecy of Mandos was abandoned).

A number of scenarios are possible here. I recently discussed some of them over at another site, 
where one person brought up the possibility that Andreth's prophecy might illustrate that Turin's role
in the Numenorean Myth (dealing Morgoth his death blow) was no longer to be part of this myth . . .

. . . leaving the part about *Arda Healed*, in any case.

Again, possible? Yes.

So are other guesses or theories about what Tolkien intended here.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 1, 2022)

Oh, the decades of argument.









Turin destroys Morgoth?


I have read from various threads that when Morgoth enters back to Arda through the gates of night there will be a final "Armageddon" battle in which all men and elves shall fight against all bad creatures. The prophecy says that Turin - yes TURIN - shall avenge his father and his fate set by...




www.thetolkienforum.com


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## Gothmog (Aug 1, 2022)

I have been looking again at these prophecies and I believe I can say with certainty that the Prophecy of Andreth is not canon. It was never set for publishing by JRRT himself. Now, as for whether it could be "Secondary" Canon (that is the works of Christopher Tolkien directly using the extant writings of JRRT) then that is a possibility.

However, even if you accept that the Prophecy is to be "canon" in the same way as the published Silmarillion and the full novels published by Christopher, you first have to decide if it is the Prophecy of Andreth or one of the Dooms of Mandos. Once you have chosen between "Manish" or "Valarian" lore then that would still only mean that it would be canon As a Prophecy! Turin Turambar has not dealt Melkor his "Death Blow". Melkor has not returned to Arda. Manwe has not decended from Taniquetil. There has been no Dagor Dagorath. The Battle of all Battles is to happen at the End Times of Arda, that is still some time in the future.

All Prophecies "foretell what is to happen" to a greater or lesser degree. It is certain that within Tolkien's universe, the Dooms of Mandos are based in his clear knowledge of the Music of the Ainur and therefore are accurate foretellings. The Manish lore of Andreth would be based on other means. Some foretelling by Man is shown to be accurate but we cannot be so certain of all. The Prophecy of Andreth could be based more on wishful thinking than actual Foresight.


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## Elthir (Aug 1, 2022)

Again, depends upon what one means by canon, but in reference to certain Silmarillion draft texts 
(none of which are canon according to my definition), even *Christopher Tolkien *states . . .

*"The Second Prophecy of Mandos (V. 333) had now therefore definitively disappeared. *This passage was used to form a conclusion to the published Silmarillion (p. 255)." Christopher Tolkien

Why does Christopher Tolkien seem so certain? I'd say 'cause (and here's the passage he refers to that was used to conclude the constructed _Quenta Silmarillion_) . . .

A) "Here ends The Valaquenta. If it has passed from the high and the beautiful to sadness and ruin, that was of old the fate of Arda Marred; *and if any change shall come and the Marring be amended*, Manwë and Varda may know; but they have not revealed it, *and it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos.'"* JRRT

And B)

"It is noteworthy that the Elves had no myths or legends dealing with the end of the world. *The myth that appears at the end of the Silmarillion is of Númenórean origin*; it is clearly made by Men, though Men acquainted with Elvish tradition."* JRRT

*note 19 " . . . in so far as this reference is to any actual written text, this is the conclusion of QS (V. 333, . . . ) *the Prophecy of Mandos."* CJRT

And for myself, I can't easily ignore the chronology of Tolkien's thinking here.


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## Gothmog (Aug 1, 2022)

Elthir said:


> Again, depends upon what one means by canon, but in reference to certain Silmarillion draft texts
> (none of which are canon according to my definition), even *Christopher Tolkien *states . . .
> 
> *"The Second Prophecy of Mandos (V. 333) had now therefore definitively disappeared. *This passage was used to form a conclusion to the published Silmarillion (p. 255)." Christopher Tolkien
> ...


I'm not going to get in the "Canon Debate" here, but I will say in reference to the two versions:

If it was one of the Dooms of Mandos then it would not be an Elvish myth or legend but a straight foretelling of the Truth by one who knows.
If it was not one of the Dooms of Mandos then it would have to be myth or legend and therefore not of Elvish lore but of Men.


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## Elthir (Aug 1, 2022)

Keeping in mind that the Second Prophecy turned Numenorean Myth was about more than the Dagor Dagorath, I recently "what iffed" elsewhere . . .

What if Arda Healed was to be encapsulated (even by implication) by the Incarnation of God, in conjunction with Finrod's vision of Arda Remade? *"They say", answered Andreth: "they say that the One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end."* JRRT, Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth

And what if Andreth's prophecy about the War of Wrath was the basis for a later, garbled Numenorean Myth about the End Times?

That's a way to keep both ideas "in story" anyway . . .

. . . and_ what if_ Hobbits were ten feet tall!


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 1, 2022)




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## Elthir (Aug 2, 2022)

Turin_Turambar said:


> This topic may have been discussed before. But in this article, I think the author says that Turin was both in the War of Wrath and in Dagor Dagorath. What do you think?



After finally getting to read the essay (the one you linked to), unless I missed something, I do not think that's what the author is saying. At one point, this article reads

"Through the numerous changes to the stories and characters Turin lost his divine future — *instead of* being reborn as a god (much like Hercules . . . ) *Turin was simply to return for a brief time at the end of the First Age* to help defeat Morgoth before dying a final death."

This seems to be focusing on earlier descriptions, in which, for examples, Túrin and Nienóri entered into the bath of flame, _"and dwelt as shining Valar among the Blessed Ones"_ -- or in a later text, naming Túrin among the Gods.

So as I read it,* instead* of this part of Túrin's fate, Tolkien had changed his mind to the fate of Andreth's Prophecy.

__________

A section that I think could be possibly confusing here is the following.

"( . . .) Some people have suggested that given the amount of editorial intrusion Christopher exercised (including writing “The Ruin of Doriath” for _The Silmarillion_) that he could have justified including *Turin’s return at the end of the First Age.*"

"But to restore Turin and the *Second Prophecy of Mandos* would have diminished the story of *Eärendil,* . . . "

Agree with this opinion or not (*I do not agree with everything in this essay, incidentally*) . . .

* [**by the way, this essay doesn't include Christopher Tolkien's statement that the Second Prophecy had definitively vanished, or the two Tolkien-written statements that I quoted above] *

. . . I note that the author of this article responds to an argument about justifying (for possible inclusion in the 1977 constructed Silmarillion) Túrin's return at the *end of the First Age* -- with a statement
about a text that does *not* refer to Túrin's return at the *end of the First Age.*

Here I would have expected something more like (*if* I agreed with the comment that is): "to have included the Prophecy of Andreth would have diminished the story of Earendil" (because _that_ is about the End of the First Age, and that would take away the killing of Ancalagon by Earendil).

Anyway. It's another article written by someone on the web.

Granted . . . I'm just a cat in a coat on the web, but there it is.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 2, 2022)

Well, Happy Birthday anyway, cat.


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## Elthir (Aug 2, 2022)

Thanks S-eS!

Actually, today is my "less official" birthday (I have another one). Ah, the fun, paperwork imperfections of the ancient 20th century!


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 2, 2022)

I believe you can change dates on your profile page. 😉


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## Elthir (Aug 2, 2022)

I guess my younger self wanted to note the less official one back when. 

Can't recall why


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 2, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> View attachment 14729


What an odd depiction......


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## Erestor Arcamen (Aug 2, 2022)

Elthir said:


> I guess my younger self wanted to note the less official one back when.
> 
> Can't recall why


Are you a secret agent?


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