# Was it truly madness?



## Talimon (Nov 19, 2002)

I was reading through RotK, and I came across this quote from Denethor. This is not the first time I have felt that Denethor spoke more truth then Gandalf gave him credit. I have this particular quote in mind:



> 'What then is your wisdom?' said Gandalf.
> 
> 'Enough to perceive that there are two follies to avoid. To use this thing is perilous. At this hour, to send it in the hands of a witless halfling into the land of the Enemy himself, as you have done, and this son of mine, that is madness.'
> 
> ...



Granted, Gandalfs reply about thinking beyond Gondor has some merit. However, one does have to ponder the truth in Denethors words. For is it not also true that, should the enemy aquire the ring, he would never loose it again? Gandalf says so himself:



> 'If he regains it, your valour is vain, and his victory will be swift and complete: so complete that *none can foresee the end of it while this world lasts*.'



Given this information, I have to wonder. Is Gandalf simply being an idealist? For all of Gandalfs wisdom, to a certain degree he almost seems to have an ego. He seems more concerend with how he will be remembered rather then victory. I think Denethor says it best when criticizing Faramir:



> 'Ever your desire is to appear lordly and generous as a king of old, gracious, gentle. That may well befit one of high race, if he sits in power and peace. But in desperate hours gentleness may be repaid with death.'
> 
> 'So be it,' said Faramir.



C'mon, how pitiful can you get? "So be it"?!? Luckily Denethor shares my feelings:



> 'So be it!' cried Denethor. 'But not with your death only, Lord Faramir: with the death also of your father, and of all your people, whom it is your part to protect now that Boromir is gone.'



Call me "evil", but I have to say that Denethor seems to have the most common sense here out of everyone. He's not like Boromir, who wanted to *use* the ring. And he's not like Faramir/Gandalf, who would rather do the "good deed" and die with a "good name" rather then use some rationality. I just can't grasp the wisdom in giving the enemy such an easy shot at getting the ring, especially when we have been told that should he get it, he will never again loose it. I agree with Denethor here: it is a gift that the ring has been found, *not* because we can now use it, but because we can rest assured the *enemy* will not use it. Gandalfs only answer to this is, "Nonetheless I do not trust you." This isn't a critique against Tolkien or anything, but if lack of trust is Gandalfs answer to common sense I truly have to wonder who was the wise one here.


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## Confusticated (Nov 19, 2002)

Well who's wisdom worked out for the better?
You take it as 100% truth that if Sauron regains the ring nothing could stop him.
When Gandalf and other wise people say it is best to destroy the ring and that Sauron would eventually over-run Middle-earth even without his ring, you question that.
Why question one and not the other?


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## Talimon (Nov 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Nóm _
> *Well who's wisdom worked out for the better?*



This isn't about the results, since no one could have known them. It's about making a logical decision. The logic that took place at the Council of Elrond is in my opinion inferior to Denethors. 



> You take it as 100% truth that if Sauron regains the ring nothing could stop him.



Yes, I do take that as 100% truth, since Gandalf himself took it as 100% truth. Saurons power, with the ring, was not questioned by anyone. Gandalf clearly states that, should Sauron aquire the ring, there is *no* hope, and while he doesn't have the ring, there is still hope. What then is the logic in putting the ring within his grasp? 



> When Gandalf and other wise people say it is best to destroy the ring and that Sauron would eventually over-run Middle-earth even without his ring, you question that.
> Why question one and not the other?



As for Gandalf and others being wise, let me remind you of Elrond. He himself says that those who are wise cannot expect to know the future until the hour has struck. When Frodo accepts his fate, Elrond remarks, "Who of all the Wise could have foreseen it? Or, *if they are wise*, why should they expect to know it, until the hour has struck?" The most anyone here *knows* is that Sauron will not be overthrown should he aquire the ring. How do they know this? He already had it once, and when he did he wasn't as cautious and was faced with fierce opposition from much greater forces then those ever seen in the late years of the Third Age. I do not question Saurons power without the ring, but merely suggest that giving him such a chance as was given does not make sense. Denethors logic is sound: keep fighting until the bitter end, and should Sauron eventually destroy all of Middle-earth and reach the very last defense, then he will get the ring. But at that point it will no longer matter. And, in those many years of fighting, perhaps Sauron should grow wary, or perhaps the tides should turn. Rashness was never advocated by any of the wise, and yet that seems to be percisely what sending the ring into Mordor was. I am not saying it wasn't the "ideal" thing to do; I just dont consider it logical nor wise. I think there is something slightly faulty in arguing that the ring-bearers quest was the result of much wisdom. I also don't see it as being a self-less act. Indeed, as Denethor points out, I think it was almost the opposite: those who sent the ring into Mordor were seeking glory, dare I say fame. Even Sam himself would not deny this: his most glorious moment was when, after waking up in Ithilien, he heard the minstrels sing of thier tale. So much for being self-less and self-sacrifice!!! What *really* matters is that we get songs written about us!!!


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## YayGollum (Nov 19, 2002)

Yay for defending the Little Guy! I don't know too many Denethor Fans! But then, the guy creeps me out most of the time with his scary mind powers. Yay for Denethor being smarter than Gandalf! Boo Gandalf! The evil torturer of poor Smeagol! Denethor never did anything to poor Smeagol, so he's okay in my book! I agree wholeheartedly with you, dude! It was very stupid of Gandalf to let some nasssty hobbit go with the Ring to save the day. The good guys just got lucky.


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## Thorin (Nov 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Talimon _
> *Denethors logic is sound: keep fighting until the bitter end, and should Sauron eventually destroy all of Middle-earth and reach the very last defense, then he will get the ring. But at that point it will no longer matter...And, in those many years of fighting, perhaps Sauron should grow wary, or perhaps the tides should turn.*



However, there is much evidence that while the ring lasted in any form, Sauron was going to get the upper hand over the races of ME. The ONLY way to stop that from happening and to even have a fighting chance was to destroy the ring. In my opinion, sending the ring in was the last chance effort because it wouldn't have mattered had they not gone in - Sauron would have gotten the ring eventually. Their only hope was in making an effort to destroy the ring. Had Frodo gotten caught, it wouldn't have mattered because Sauron would eventually would win. The battle at the Black Gates proved that, even despite the eagles. Had not the ring been thrown in Mount Doom, the forces of Sauron would have won. Hence, they really have nothing to lose by trying to destroy the ring.

Keep in mind that it is easy for Denethor to say "hide it deep and don't use it". But the folly is not in Gandalf's words, but in Denethor's presumptions. The ring corrupts and Gandalf knew it. Denethor, like Boromir did not. Eventually, Denethor's thoughts would be to try and use it against Sauron. Especially when Minas Tirith begins to fall. And as far as Denethor is concerned, the great city was falling. He was deceived by looking into the palantir. You honestly think he would have heeded his own words had he gotten the ring? I don't think so.


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## Talimon (Nov 19, 2002)

> In my opinion, sending the ring in was the last chance effort because it wouldn't have mattered had they not gone in - Sauron would have gotten the ring eventually.



I don't see the logic in that. You are telling me that, should the ring be kept hidden miles upon miles away from Sauron, he would find it, but if it's sent into his very own kingdom, he would not. Yes, were the destruction of the ring a simpler matter then of course it should be destroyed. But given the risk I don't see Gandalf's logic. Plus, I can't agree with your statement on the basis of Gandalfs own statements. You say with surety that Sauron would have gotten the ring eventually. Yet Gandalf claims that "...despair is only for those who see the end beyond all doubt. We do not." Gandalf could not tell the future. None of those at the council could.


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## Confusticated (Nov 19, 2002)

Well even if they hid it someone would know where it was at, and when times got bad enough someone would probably go looking for it. Now I guess they might have tried throwing it into the sea as Galdor (or maybe it was another elf) sugguested. But the thing is, could anyone have thrown it out? I doubt it, that would be much like throwing it into the fire. Remember in Bag End when Frodo tried to harm it but just ended up sticking it into his pockets? Now Denethor may not have thought this way, but I do.
If it is hidden were people can find it they will, and to hide it where no one could ever find it is something no one would have the will to do. Though if Elrond and the other wise folk thought that, surely they would have known that Frodo could not throw it to the fire.


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## Isengrin (Nov 19, 2002)

Even without the Ring, Middle Earth would fall
Cause the power of Sauron, even halven, was stronger than the Free Peoples
Cuz, In Tolkien world, the world was regressing

The power of the Elves in the First Age was greater than in the 2nd, and the 2nd stronger than the 3rd.

But the evil was growing, and finally, overtake the Free People.

EVEN WITHOUT THE RING, MIDDLE EARTH WAS LOST.

Olorin The Wise knew it
Galadriel who know what was, what is, and some of what will be knew it
Elrond knew it

Denethor ?



> 'Neither. But most surely not for any arguement would he have set this thing at a hazard beyond all but a fool's hope, risking our utter ruin, if the Enemy should recover what he lost. Nay, it should have been kept, hidden, hidden dark and deep. Not used, I say, unless at the uttermost end of need, but set beyond his grasp, save by a victory so final that what then befell would not trouble us, being dead.'



Hide it.... 

Where ?
How ? 

The One RIng and Sauron are linked.
The Ring want to return to Sauron
So even if you drop it in the sea, it'd return in his path, in a way or another
The One Ring is a part of Sauron
ITs the Evil

Dont use it unless at the uttermost end of need
maybe he say the "uttermost en of need" 
but already , he mention the "maybe " need to use it...
AND HE DONT EVEN HAVE IT NEAR OF HIM
Imagine if he get in possession of it !
He'd fall, even more easily than Boromir
Because Denethor is Proud
He have many quality, but about Wisdom.. he s weak
Weak if we compare to Elrond or Galadriel or Gandald, and even, to Aragorn
But its true that he s a strong Lord, and that he s wise for a men
But the Ring would consume him SO easily
Saruman have fall too, without never see it

Denethor wanted it.
And he wanted it SOO bad
I ve lost the book so i cant quote

But read the.. let see ..the 4th ? chapter again, and again, and again if needed

Denothor was the one who was seeking the most glory

He s jealous of Aragorn
He hate the Kings, who, he think, have failed

His "wisdom" came from the knowledge he have learn into the Palantir

You have broke my heart, saying that Gandalf was selfish and not that Wise...

Its not Wise of your part to doubt about Olorin THE WISE


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## Talimon (Nov 20, 2002)

You might want to back up your claims. Given the situation, nothing suggests that the decisions made at the council of Elrond were "wise". I believe they were "ideal", with Elrond and Gandalf wanting to do what was "right", but naive. Yes, the ring was destroyed, but I prefer to see it as a result of chance, luck, and perhaps some courage. The wisdom at the Council (or lack thereof) had little to do with it. I also believe that there are some contradictions in the arguements made in the Council. How can one argue that the ring would be found were it hidden deep at sea, but *not* be found were it sent right into the heart of Mordor? Often Gandalf uses this rationale, saying the ring can't be hidden because it will eventually find it's master. Yet how does this rationale hold when you have just decided to send this ring into the lands of the enemy? Were Gandalf and Faramir concerend for the people of Middle-earth, rather then thier own glory and nobility, there is absolutely no way they'd have let Frodo proceed into Mordor.


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## Thorin (Nov 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Talimon _
> *Were Gandalf and Faramir concerend for the people of Middle-earth, rather then thier own glory and nobility, there is absolutely no way they'd have let Frodo proceed into Mordor. *



Sorry to get off topic here and I know it's a movie thing, but Talimon. Your reasoning here is exactly why some people had a problem with PJ's Aragorn just letting Frodo go off on his own to Mordor rather than Frodo leaving without their knowledge....You just contradicted yourself.  

I think that the wise of the council (some who've been around Sauron's power for over 3000 years) knew that the only way to get rid of Sauron was to destroy the ring. That is why they shot down the "throw the ring into the sea". Also keep in mind that they knew that the last thing Sauron would think they would do is throw the ring into the fires. Hence, Sauron's power was not bent inward but outward. The quest had that advantage and Tolkien sets up the story and the characters to keep Sauron's eye busy elsewhere.


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## DGoeij (Nov 20, 2002)

Are you absolutely certain Denethor only wanted to hide the Ring, just keeping it away from Sauron? Gondor would have fallen to Sauron, him having the Ring or not. The Dark Lord had grown strong enough to do that already. Denethor is there to protect Gondor, that's what being a Steward was all about. Would he have refrained from using the Ring when he would have been unable to protect Gondor in any other way? I highly doubt it.
Now, even without including Denethor at the moment, I wonder how the Free People of ME would be able to hide the Ring effectively? The darn thing corrupts about anybody, even without being close to them (Saruman). By the time of the CoE, Sauron was very powerful without it already. It doesn't come across to me as a winning stategy.
IMO, it was a choice between a certain victory of Sauron, and years and years of suffering (if those would have been ended one day at all) or a last attempt to stop Sauron effectively, by destroying his Ring.


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## Talimon (Nov 20, 2002)

> Sorry to get off topic here and I know it's a movie thing, but Talimon. Your reasoning here is exactly why some people had a problem with PJ's Aragorn just letting Frodo go off on his own to Mordor rather than Frodo leaving without their knowledge....You just contradicted yourself.



I am actually playing Devils advocate here Thorin, in case you didn't notice. I am waiting for someone to disprove me with some solid quotes. I'll leave the comments about the movie for the movie section.



> I think that the wise of the council (some who've been around Sauron's power for over 3000 years) knew that the only way to get rid of Sauron was to destroy the ring.



Granted, but why do it so rashly? Denethor never argues to *not* destroy the ring. He merely makes the sesible arguement that sending it into Mordor, as the situation is, in the hands of a halfling, is madness.



> IMO, it was a choice between a certain victory of Sauron, and years and years of suffering (if those would have been ended one day at all) or a last attempt to stop Sauron effectively, by destroying his Ring.



Yes, the ring should ultimately be destroyed, but I think the means by which it was done were short on wisdom. Gandalf claims that despair is only for those that can see the end beyond all doubt. So is Gandalf claiming that, had the ring never been found (by Sauron or himself), Sauron's domination over Middle-earth would have been inevitable? If so he is plagued by far more despair then Denethor. At least Denethor was ready to fight until the bitter end, and I believe he would have, had he not looked in the Palantir. Gandalf can argue all he likes that Denethor would have been tempted by the ring, but that doesn't show much faith in men, does it? The ring could have been hidden easily. Indeed, were it not for Gollum, it *would* have been hidden. How is it that the ring was hidden for thousands of years? And for 600 of those years in the direct pocession of individuals? The ring did not corrupt everyone, and some of those it did corrupt (Gollum, Bilbo, Frodo) were too weak to do much harm with it. The ring could have been kept under the pocession of Frodo (or any other hobbit) for many years, I have no doubt. And when chance came, and Mordor was less cautious then before, the ring could be destroyed.


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## DGoeij (Nov 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Talimon _
> *The ring could have been kept under the pocession of Frodo (or any other hobbit) for many years, I have no doubt. And when chance came, and Mordor was less cautious then before, the ring could be destroyed. *



There's of course no absolute certainty in Sauron dominating ME without the Ring, but 'who and what army' would, at the time of the CoE, have been able to bring him down? Or even hold him at bay long enough for a more thought-out strike team to penetrate Mordor's defences? Mordor/Sauron wasn't cautious at all. Sauron's strenght had grown and he was aware that the Ring had been found. He was hastily trying to reaquire it, sending his servants and armies abroad, away from Mordor.
Hiding the Ring, while Sauron was actively looking for it, does not sound good to me. And where to hide this thing? At the bottom of the sea, in the hope that by the time it turns up again, Sauron is less mighty? I do see that, sending _towards_ the enemy does sound like madness, but other solutions didn't solve the problem at hand.


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## Leto (Nov 20, 2002)

..."Rash were none of the deeds of Gandalf, in life."...

Whatever he may have said...a foresight was on Gandalf, and a fate, a destiny applied to his time in Middle Earth, perhaps from the very first time he set foot on the western shores of Lindon. In all his doings, his intuition and his heart played the greatest part in his decisions. Frodo was the same, who followed his heart rather than reason, even when all seemed lost, and he fell into despair. "What you say would sound like wisdom, but for the warning in my heart..." he says to Boromir. (don't remember if it's exactly the same in the movie and the book there, but the idea is the same)

"Bilbo was meant to find the ring, and not by its maker. Which means that you also were meant to have it...And that is an encouraging thought..."

This point was obvious to Gandalf, who of all beings on Middle Earth at that time had the greatest insight into the workings of the Valar and Iluvatar. Though consciously, logically, he could not see all ends or be 100% sure of such things...he had faith. We don't really know just how much Gandalf actually knew, or remembered of his knowledge and power as a Maia...but we can be sure he never lost sight of the purpose for which he was sent to Middle Earth. For this reason, he had the blessing of the Valar and probably Eru. (proven by the fact that he was sent back to life, with greater vision and power than before, to continue his task)

Gandalf's idealism and seemingly trivial pursuits (his love of Hobbits, smoking, fireworks, becoming friends with people all across the land) were never really trivial, but essential to conquering Sauron. That is a big part of the story's 'moral', I think. Sometimes what seems like folly, what seems hopeless, is not...for our hearts and souls have more 'wisdom' than our brains do. Without 'feeling', the council of Boromir, Denethor, even Saruman, sound more worthy than the idealistic, foolish hope that a little Hobbit could do away with Sauron. But that is exactly why it is correct. For Sauron, evil, has no 'feeling'. Without Love, nothing but cold calculating logic, selfish desire, and pride. The gentle and soft overcome the hard and strong...the meek and humble defeat the mighty and arrogant. Love overcomes fear. 
It makes perfect sense that Gandalf's hope is a better idea than Denethor's despair.


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## Talimon (Nov 20, 2002)

> It makes perfect sense that Gandalf's hope is a better idea than Denethor's despair.



What you state is all very nice and ideal, but I return back to the original question: how does this end up being in the best interests of the free-races of Middle-earth? You claim that Gandalf has no "selfish desire, and pride". Gandalf's actions embody selfish-desire. It is on a different level from Saurons, who's self-desire is for the concrete and literal. But Gandalf's actions (as well as Faramirs) embody a lust for glory. It is clear that they each are looking to do what is "right", and are willing to die for it. Very noble, I agree, but selfish as well. I repeat Denethors words:



> 'Ever your desire is to appear lordly and generous as a king of old, gracious, gentle. That may well befit one of high race, if he sits in power and peace. But in desperate hours gentleness may be repaid with death.'
> 
> 'So be it,' said Faramir.
> 
> 'So be it!' cried Denethor. 'But not with your death only, Lord Faramir: with the death also of your father, and of all your people, whom it is your part to protect now that Boromir is gone.'



Don't mistake Gandalf/Faramir's actions as being self-less, simply because he had no material gain. I think Gandalfs words at the last debate embody his motives:



> 'We must walk open-eyed into that trap, with courage, but small hope for ourselves. For, my lords, it may well prove that we ourselves shall perish utterly in a black battle far from the living lands; so that even if Barad-dur be thrown down, we shall not live to see a new age. But this, I deem, is our duty. *And better so then to perish nonetheless*--as we surely shall, if we sit here-- and now as we die that no new age shall be.'



Gandalf was ever ready to do the 'right' thing, even if it meant sacrificing the lives of thousands. The fact that he ended up being victorious is trivial. Perhaps it was based on instinct, but I wouldn't risk the lives of all the free-folk of Middle-earth on the instinct of a wandering Wizard. A wizard, I might add, who ruled no kingdom and had no apparent responsibility (at least from the free-folks perspective). I think there is a fine line here we need to draw: Denethor says in clear words: *'To use this thing is perilous.'* Boromir never admited this. Saruman never admited this. You can't put Denethor in the same league, because he directly denounced use of the ring. What separates him from Gandalf is that he had the common sense to not send it right into the hands of the enemy. Destroy it, yes. 



> 'But most surely not for any argument would he have set this thing at a hazard beyond all but a fool's hope, risking our utter ruin, if the Enemy should recover what he lost.'



It says much about Gandalfs "hope" that all he can say in return is that he doesn't trust Denethor. Why? Because he doesn't trust himself. Very selfless, I agree. Were we saying something about pride? Surely if Gandalf the Great can't handle the temptation then nobody else can.


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## Incánus (Nov 21, 2002)

The reason that Gandalf's wisdom makes more sense is this. The time of the elves and that of the men of Westernesse was passing. They grew weaker with each passing year. Denethor saw this in the crumbling of his city and his bloodline. This is also shown in later chapters when Tolkien talks about the growing emptiness of Minas Tirith. Gandalf's wisdom lies in the fact that the Ring ultimately corrupts. Couple this with the fact that Sauron's power was changing inversely with that of the men and elves (that is Growing exponentially) and you can see that the only way to win is destroy the ring by a small hidden group. At the point that this is decided it is the only plausible course. Force is no good as is seen in the ever diminishing power of men and elves. Hiding the ring is no good because ultimately it will overpower its possessor and he/she would claim it as their own thus making a new dark lord/queen to dominate ME. That or Sauron would have overthrown ME and regained the ring himself and then dominated ME. Either way, Denethor was blinded by his own fears which were fueled by what he saw in the palantir, and Gandalf, being the quasi-omnipotent Ultrawise being that he is was right. In fact, he cautioned Frodo not to kill Gollum should he chance upon him, and we all know how that turned out. 


Incanus rules, Denethor is a Moron. Denethor----->


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## Eriol (Nov 21, 2002)

Well, Talimon the Devil's Advocate wants quotes -- sorry, I don't have the book here. But I was always impressed by the scene in the Two Towers when Gandalf meets the three companions in Fangorn, and looks away towards Frodo. After a while he says something like "It is beyond our reach. Of that danger at least we are free now". 

Yes, in the end Gandalf's answer to Denethor's suggestion is simply lack of trust. And why is that unwise or proud? Why would Denethor be stronger to resist temptation than himself, or Elrond, or Galadriel? All signs pointed in the opposite direction. He had already failed to resist the temptation to look into the Palantír (a fact suspected by Gandalf), believing he was strong enough. We know he was wrong, and Sauron directed what he could see, by Gandalf's testimony (would we question that also?). Also, men were the reace most susceptible to temptation (this "biological" input is important in Tolkien's world), as seen since the First Age -- from the Treason of the Easterlings up to the Nine Ringwraiths. 

The danger of using the ring is more perilous than the danger of losing the war in Gandalf's opinion, and I think this is the point that Talimon is doubting. Why should that be? Why should we risk (and lose) lives in order to prevent the use of the ring? It is rather easy for an immortal spirit to say "we must go and face certain death at the Black Gate". But the point is that in Tolkien's cosmology (and the characters believed in that) Life was not the major value, that trumps everything else -- Goodness is. A good death is better than a bad life. Sure, life is important enough that one should not relinquish it, but it is below Goodness in the scale of values -- the difference between the suicide and the martyr. All characters believed in that. A death in behalf of the good in the world was worthwhile. That is why Aragorn, in what I think is the bravest act in his life, agreed to the plan. He was King, victorious, and could have said "OK, nice plan, but I will stay here and see how it turns out". But he went himself, to certain death (this was CERTAIN death in his eyes), because it was the right thing to do. This willingness to do the right thing at the risk of your own life is the target of Talimon's Devil Advocate criticism, and one of the main messages in the book in my opinion.

See ya!


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## Grond (Nov 21, 2002)

I have one quote now but I'll come back with more. The fallacy of this argument is the fact that "no one" could resist the Ring. The book reeks of this theme, over and over. Elrond rejects the Ring, it would turn him to evil. Galadriel rejects the Ring, it would turn her to evil. Gandalf rejects the Ring, it would turn him to evil. The mere temptation of the Ring overwhelmed Denethor's eldest son. And let us not forget that the blood of Numenor ran truest through Aragorn, son of Arathorn and that he, too, had rejected the Ring. The Ring sitting in the darkness of Rath Dinnen would have eaten away at Denethor's soul and his resolve. He would have shared his son's failure.

Denethor was already drained of spirit by the time the Council of Elrond came about.


> _from The Return of the King, The Pyre of Denethor_
> His eyes glittered. 'Pride and despair!' he cried. 'Didst thou think that the eyes of the White Tower were blind? Nay, I have seen more than thou knowest, Grey Fool. For thy hope is but ignorance. Go then and labour in healing! Go forth and fight! Vanity. For a little space you may triumph on the field, for a day. But against the Power that now arises there is no victory. To this City only the first finger of its hand has yet been stretched. All the East is moving. And even now the wind of thy hope cheats thee and wafts up Anduin a fleet with black sails. The West has failed. It is time for all to depart who would not be slaves.' 'Such counsels will make the Enemy's victory certain indeed,' said Gandalf. 'Hope on then!' laughed Denethor. 'Do I not know thee, Mithrandir? Thy hope is to rule in my stead, to stand behind every throne, north, south, or west. I have read thy mind and its policies. Do I not know that you commanded this halfling here to keep silence? That you brought him hither to be a spy within my very chamber? And yet in our speech together I have learned the names and purpose of all thy companions. So! With the left hand thou wouldst use me for a little while as a shield against Mordor, and with the right bring up this Ranger of the North to supplant me. 'But I say to thee, Gandalf Mithrandir, I will not be thy tool! I am Steward of the House of Anbrion. I will not step down to be the dotard chamberlain of an upstart. Even were his claim proved to me, still he comes but of the line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity.' 'What then would you have,' said Gandalf, 'if your will could have its way?' 'I would have things as they were in all the days of my life,' answered Denethor, 'and in the days of my longfathers before me: to be the Lord of this City in peace, and leave my chair to a son after me, who would be his own master and no wizard's pupil. But if doom denies this to me, then I will have naught: neither life diminished, nor love halved, nor honour abated.'


I think the Wise, knowing the mind of Denethor, made the wise choice. Sending the Ring to Gondor would merely have (in a best case scenario) simply have resulted in a new dark lord.


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## Leto (Nov 21, 2002)

Talimon...you are forgetting Gandalf's origins, and his purpose. Just like Denethor, who likewise did not know Gandalf's true origin or purpose. He was sent by the Valar, the guardians and creators of the world, most likely with the guidance of Eru, the One, Himself. He was sent back to life when he had perished, so that he might finish his work. He had obviously, up to that point, done something right...and after he returned as 'the white', he was allowed even greater foresight and power. And yes, even the great Gandalf could have failed...but if there was any Being in Middle Earth at that time who could have succeeded in bringing about Sauron's defeat, it was him. Denethor's logic is that of one who has no faith, who sees no deeper than the surface, and who has fallen into despair. By this, he is serving Sauron and cannot be trusted.


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## Talimon (Nov 21, 2002)

> The fallacy of this argument is the fact that "no one" could resist the Ring.





> Hiding the ring is no good because ultimately it will overpower its possessor and he/she would claim it as their own thus making a new dark lord/queen to dominate ME.



I think you are both forgetting something that is very important. The ring was possessed by individuals for nearly 600 years without any dark-lord coming into power. Who said that the great and wise must possess it? Gollum, Bilbo, and Frodo possesed it without any evil coming of it. Grond says no-one could resist it. And what is the evil in a lesser being *not* resisting it? The fact is, Grond, that if what you say is true, then it was foolishness for Gandalf/Elrond to send the ring with Frodo in the first place. But I think you are contradicting yourself. How can you say that no one could resist he ring, and follow that up with:



> Elrond rejects the Ring, it would turn him to evil. Galadriel rejects the Ring, it would turn her to evil. Gandalf rejects the Ring, it would turn him to evil.



I might add Faramir, a mortal and a man, to that list. Indeed, the very son of Denethor himself. It is quite apprent that some *can* resist the ring. If it's power is such that no-one can resist it, how is it that, out of all the folk who knew of it, only one attempted to physically steal it? (Boromir). Perhaps the temptation of the ring was strong, but it did not prevail over everyone.


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## Incánus (Nov 22, 2002)

The reason for that is that those that possessed the ring either didn't know of its full powers and wouldn't because the ring didn't think that they were strong enough to wield it to its full potential or they did and didn't desire power in any way. Those that knew of its strength and desired it would always be tempted. Even Gandalf himself knew that he could at first use the ring for good but he knew that folly would follow.


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