# The identity of the Lord of the Nazgul



## Úlairi (Apr 18, 2002)

Denethor says in 'The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King: Chapter Four: "The Siege of Gondor"':



> 'Then Mithrandir, you had a foe to match you,' said Denethor. 'For myself, *I have long known the who is the chief captain of the hosts of the Dark Tower*. Is that all you have returned to say? Or can it be that you have withdrawn because you were overmatched?'"



Here Denethor suggest that he knows what the identity of the Morgul-lord is. I have heard many a time that he was a Numenorean King, which is a definite possibility. One of the Numenorean Kings jumps out at me as to who the Morgul-lord may be. It says in 'The Tale of Years' in Appendix B of 'The Lord of the Rings':



> "2251: Tar-Atanamir takes the sceptre. Rebellion and division of the Numenoreans begins. *About this time the Nazgul or Ringwraiths, slaves of the Nine Rings, first appear.*"



Therefore, if the Morgul-lord is a Numenorean King, than he must be Tar-Ciryatan. It says in UT in the 'Line of Elros':



> "XII _Tar-Ciryatan_
> He was born in the year 1634, and ruled for 160 years; he surrended the sceptre in 2029, *and died in 2035*. He was a mighty King, *but greedy of wealth*; he built a great fleet of royal ships, and his servants brought back great store of metals and gems, and oppressed the men of Middle-earth. He scorned the yearnings of his father, and eased the restlessness of his heart *by voyaging, east, and north, and south*, until he took the sceptre. It is said that he constrained his father to yield to him ere of his free will he would. In this way (it is held) *might be the first coming of the Shadow upon the bliss of Numenor be seen*.



Therefore Tar-Ciryatan was a greedy King, and could easily be seduced by Sauron. What do you guys think?


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## Bucky (Apr 18, 2002)

It's too late to think.......

But, I'll try.

I think you are taking the quote by Denethor out of context.
The context isn't WHO IS HE ORIGINALLY?, but WHO IS THE COMMANDER OF SAURON'S ARMY?
Gandalf plaily states that prior to Denethor's response that you quoted.

Now, as for your theory after that, it has some merit & I'll look into it, but like I said, it's late............


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## Rangerdave (Apr 18, 2002)

Opps, I thought I was in another thread


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## Niniel (Apr 18, 2002)

The Lord of the Nazgul was the 'Witch-king of Angmar', and Angmar seems to be a kingdom in the north of Middle-Earth, above the Shire. So he can't be Tar-Ciryatan or another king of Númenor. But I can't find more information about Angmar.


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## Greenwood (Apr 18, 2002)

The passage from ROTK reads:



> 'Yet now under the Lord of Barad-dur the most fell of all his captains is already master of your outer walls,' said Gandalf. 'King of Angmar long ago, Sorcerer, Ringwraith, Lord of the Nazgul, a spear of terror in the hand of Sauron, shadow of despair.'
> "Then, Mithrandir, you had a foe to match you,' said Denethor. 'For myself, I have long known who is the chief captain of the hosts of the Dark Tower. Is this all that you have returned to say? Or can it be that you have withdrawn because you are overmatched?'




Ulairi

It is clear from the full passage above that what Denethor is telling Gandalf is that he knows the chief captain of Barad-dur is the chief Nazgul and that the chief Nazgul was the Wirch King of Angmar. The Witch King of Angmar was responsible for the destriction od the North Kingdom.

As for Tar-Ciryatan, note that UT says he died. Surely the historians would have noted whether a King of Numenor died or merely disappeared? More importantly, one should be very careful mixing things from Unfinished Tales (or any of the posthumously published Tolkien books) with LOTR because there are inconsistencies between the them that Tolkien never had a chance to iron out. The entry on Tar-Ciryatan in UT says the first comming of the Shadow on Numenor was during his reign, but in LOTR the first coming of the Shadow to Numenor is placed earlier, during the reign of his father Tar-Minastir. In Appendix A:



> The first sign of the of the shadow that was to fall upon them appeared in the days of Tar-Minastir, eleventh king.



And in Appendix B, The Tale of Years:



> c. 1800 From this time onward the Numenoreans begin to establish dominions on the coasts. Sauron extends his power eastwards. The shadow falls on Numenor.



The year 1800 SA is in the reign of Tar-Minastir. The accounts in LOTR are the definitive ones and trump anything from the posthumous material when there is a difference between them.


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## Lord Melkor (Apr 18, 2002)

It is said that 3 Ringwraiths were Numenorian Princes( not sure about the source, maybe someone more knowledgable can confirm it).


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## Úlairi (Apr 18, 2002)

Yes, perhaps I took it a little out of context. I also have another theory as to the existence of the Witch-King. Greenwood, post-humous books aren't necessarily wrong, you cannot in any way make that statement, as a lot of these facts were found by Christopher Tolkien after his father died, and quite a few of them were true. Here is my other theory. Here is another passage from UT (which definitely should not be discarded):



> "Of the Blue little was known in the West, and they had no names save _Ithryn Luin_ 'the Blue Wizards'; for they passed into the East with Curunir, but they never returned, and whether they remained in the East, pursuing there the purposes for which they were sent; or perished; *or as some hold were ensnared by Sauron and became his servants*, is not now known."
> _Unfinished Tales Page 504_



Well, isn't that ineteresting. I am unsure of whether some of you know much of the _Ithryn Luin_, but I am sure that Greenwood and possibly Rangerdave know something about them. It says in black and white that there was a definite possibility that Sauron could have made them his servants. So, the Witch-King could be a Maia. He could be either Alatar or Pallando. If they were captured, I am fairly sure that only one would have been. As the Mouth of Sauron was a man and become the Chiefs of the Nazgul or at least one would be the Mouth of the second in command of the Nazgul was Khamul the Easterling, who is also a man. If both of them had of been caught, then both would have Sauron and one the Lord of the Nazgul. In no way can this *theory* be disproved, as it is infallible and it has evidence to support it. So, could the Lord of the Nazgul be either Alatar? Or Pallando?


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## Bucky (Apr 18, 2002)

>>>>In no way can this theory be disproved, as it is infallible and it has evidence to support it. So, could the Lord of the Nazgul be either Alatar? Or Pallando?

HOGWASH!
I'll disprove it right now without even having to search it out:

1. The Nazgul were MEN.
As in 'Nine (rings) for Mortal Men doomed to die.'

2. The Nazgul existed for 2000 years before the Istari came to ME.

3. The Mouth of Sauron? Nope.
'Yet this was no Ringwraith, but a living man'.
AND, 'He came from the race that is known as the Black Numenoreans'.


On the King of Numenor:

1. As previously stated, it says he died.

2. The Numenoreans, as they became more obsessed lith eternal life, made great tombs to their dead. Wouldn't someone have noticed the king's body wasn't there or was a fake?
Remember they couldn't legthen their days, but became able to preserve dead flesh 'uncorrupted', so they couldn't have switched bodies.

3. If he had been king of Numenor, why would he ever leave his thronwe volunteerily if he was given a Ring that gave long life?


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## Úlairi (Apr 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Bucky _
> *>>>>In no way can this theory be disproved, as it is infallible and it has evidence to support it. So, could the Lord of the Nazgul be either Alatar? Or Pallando?
> 
> HOGWASH!
> ...



Oops, I forgot to add this to my theory. Thankyou Bucky. Yes, the Nazgul were men, but IMO, there is a *possibility* that Sauron came across someone better i.e. Alatar or Pallando, and the Lord of the Nazgul was replaced (I have no proof to back this up it is entirely speculation, yet it cannot be proved wrong). So, the elder Lord of the Nazgul was replaced. So, points one and two are of no problem to me Bucky. All I am saying is that there is a slight chance that the Lord of the Nazgul was replaced. There is also another possibility. That perhaps Sauron had eight and was looking for a worthy Lord, and he found one in either Alatar or Pallando.



> _From Appendix B: The Tale of Years_
> "2251: Tar-Atanamir takes the sceptre. Rebellion and division of the Numenoreans begins. About this time the Nazgul or Ringwraiths, slaves of the *Nine Rings*, first appear."



It only mentions the Nine Rings, which were made before the Nazgul existed. Nowhere did it mention that all Nine at that time were under the control of the Nine Rings. For all we know, it could have been eight and Sauron was looking for a Ninth, their leader perhaps. So, my theory still stands Bucky. As for the Mouth of Sauron, I said that he couldn't be a Maia, I said that it was a probable possibility that only one of the _Ithryn Luin[/B] was captured, as the Mouth of Sauron was a man. I was making the statement that if any of the Ithryn Luin had been caught, then it was probable that only one was captured. So read the post right next time Bucky. As for the King of the Numenoreans, the Annals went down in the downfall of Numenor, so there is no possible way that we can say that he was dead, as the Annals no longer existed. As for the body, iy could have been faked, it has been done before by man, look at 'Romeo and Juliet', Juliet faked her death and she did it quite well. The Ring gives its bearer immortal life, so it is a possibility that Tar-Ciryatan was still alive when he was 'claimed' to be dead. I never said he gave up his throne volunteerily, the Ring corrupted him and he was under the service of Sauron, so he didn't make a choice as to give up the throne, Sauron made him. So my theories both stand Bucky, yet, as I have said, they are entirely speculative._


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## Greenwood (Apr 19, 2002)

> _Quote by Ulairi_
> Greenwood, post-humous books aren't necessarily wrong, you cannot in any way make that statement, as a lot of these facts were found by Christopher Tolkien after his father died, and quite a few of them were true.



Ulairi

There are no *facts* here. LOTR and the whole world of Middle-earth is a work of fiction from the very fertile brain of JRR Tolkien. The so-called "facts" are whatever JRRT says they are. Since LOTR and The Hobbit are the works about Middle-earth that JRRT actually saw through to publication, the "facts" in those works trump any "facts" in the posthumously published material *when* there is a discrepancy between the two. Even Christopher Tolkien in his introductions to The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales warns that there are inconsistencies and readers should not expect complete agreement between these works and works published by his father during his lifetime.

As for a theory being infallible, I second Bucky's eloquent and succinct response.



> _From Appendix B: The Tale of Years_
> "2251: Tar-Atanamir takes the sceptre. Rebellion and division of the Numenoreans begins. About this time *the Nazgul or Ringwraiths, slaves* of the Nine Rings, first appear."



To refer to the above passage and say "it only mentions the Nine Rings", is a complete distortion of the English language. It states that the nine Nazgul or Ringwraiths appear. Your English seems too good for you to really misunderstand the above sentence. If your knowledge of English is in fact limited and you truly misunderstood the above than I apologize, but otherwise it seems to me you are willfully and intentionally misstating what the sentence says.



> _Quote by Ulairi_
> Yes, perhaps I took it a little out of context.



Do you mean like your phony Saruman's Ring thread? Ulairi, this entire thread strikes me as another thread like that one where you are knowingly distorting material from the books just to stir up debate. Until I see some evidence from you that you are seriously discussing topics in Tolkien's works rather than just trying to start debates by distorting Tolkien's writings, I will no longer respond to, nor take part in your threads. I will leave it up to others to make their own decisions. Until such time as I see such seriousness on your part you have been added to my ignore list.


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## Bucky (Apr 19, 2002)

Dream On.

Maybe Pallando was also the second gunman on the 'grassy knoll' in Dallas when Kennedy was shot......
 

BTW, I noticed on The Mouth of Sauron that you skipped over the fact that JRR states in 'The Black Gate Opens' that HE WAS OF THE RACE OF THE BLACK NUMENOREANS.
Period. End of theory.


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## Úlairi (Apr 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Greenwood _
> *
> 
> Ulairi
> ...



My apologies Greenwood. I was trying to stir up debate by once again distorting Tolkien's writings. I will forever cease to do so. If you really want to know the point as to why I did this Greenwood. It is that I have always been puzzled by the identity of the Witch-King, and I had hoped that someone would produce a believable theory as to his identity. I distorted the writings to 'help it along'. This time I wasn't using people's ignorance for humourous satisfaction on my part. No longer will I distort Tolkien's writings Greenwood, I have always respected your opinion. Amongst the arguments I had hoped that someone would produce a theory that I would be satisfied with, yet it hasn't happened. I am sorry everyone for deliberately misleading you. IMO, this is a sincere apology and I believe that it deserves to get me off of your 'ignore list' Greenwood.


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## Dhôn-Buri-Dhôn (Apr 20, 2002)

Ulairi: that's strike two. A lot of folks may only be willing to give you one strike over a question of basic honesty. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

This thread has brought up one interesting point, though. The Nazgul first appeared before the fall of Numenor. However, we also know that the Witch King of Angmar is one of these self-same Nazgul. Therefore, we must conclude that the Witch-King somehow survived the ruin of Numenor... unless he migrated to M-E sometime before that. But why? Gondor and Arnor were not fonded until after the fall of Numenor. All the action was in Numenor. Sauron was in Numenor. There's no reason for the Witch-king to leave.

So how did he get to M-E? Can a wraith walk on water? Did he blow in on a stiff breeze?


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## Úlairi (Apr 20, 2002)

I am sorry Dhon-buri-Dhon, I guess I did fool you, sorry. As for your point this is exactly what I have been looking for, and no offece by this, but you were not the person I was expecting to deliver this, but, I thankyou. Yes, in the Silmarillion it mentions Herumor and Fuinil or Fuinar? (Sorry, I seem to have lost my copy and am remebering this off the top of my head.) They were renegade Numenoreans and became mighty amongst the Haradrim, but I am unsure of in which age. If it was the Second Age than it is a definite possibility, but if it was in the Third Age than it definitely couldn't have been. Perhaps someone with a copy of the Sil, look up Herumaor in the index and find where it states this and quote it for us please?


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## Elanor2 (Apr 20, 2002)

OK, I'll try to answer a bit these questions. I'll grab my copies and go!

According to UT, Sauron captured the Nine during the second age, when he destroyed Eregion and captured and killed Celebrimbor. He then tried to attack Gil-galad, whom he suspected had some of the Three, but G-g was rescued by the Numenorean army that sailed from Numenor under Tar-Minastir, 11th King of Numenor (1474-1873 S.A.)

The 12th, 13th and 14th Kings sailed frecuently to ME afterwards, but were greedy and did not come in friendship but to get riches from the men of ME. This was the beginning of the bad reputation of the Numenoreans among the ME people.

Now, from the SIL:
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Thus it came to pass that in that time (prev.paragraph) that the Numenoreans first made great settlements upon the west shores of the ancient lands (ME)...
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The Kings men sailed far away to the south; and the lordships and strongholds that they made have left many rumors in the legends of Men.
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Yet Sauron was ever guileful, and it is said that among those whom he snared with the Nine Rings *three* were great lords of Numenorean race. And when the Ulairi arose that were the Ring-wraiths, his servants, and the strength of his terror and mastery over Men had grown exceedingly great, he began to assail the strong places of the Numenoreans upon the shores of the sea.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Additionally:

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Herumor and Fuinur: Renegade Numenoreans who became mighty among the Haradrim at the end of the second age.
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Thus the Exiles of Numenor (Elendil's people) established their realms....
.....But because of the power of Gil-Galad these renegades, lords both mighty and evil, for the most part took up their abodes in the southlands far away; yet two there were, Herumor and Fuinur, who rose to power among the Haradrim...
---------------------------------------------------------------------

So it seems that sometime in the Second age, after the reign of Tar-Minastir, Sauron ensnared some of the Numenorean lords from the lost southern strongholds and made them Ring-wraiths. And that the Ring-wraiths made his first appearance also during the S.A. (Tar-Ancalimon, 14th king (1986-2386)) Who were the other 6, it is not mentionned.I seem to remember that the Which-King was not of the numenoreans, but I am not sure.

Herumor and Fuinur might have been of the Ring-wraiths, but it seems like they were later, at the end of the second age right before the Last Alliance, so too late to be Ring-wraiths (sorry chaps, no vacancies)

The Mouth of Sauron was, perhaps, a descendent of these "Black Numenoreans".


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## Greenwood (Apr 20, 2002)

Dhôn-Buri-Dhôn

I have never thought of any of the Ringwraiths being in Numenor. The elven rings were forged in Middle-earth and I always thought of them as staying in Middle-earth (except for Sauron's). I think Elanor2 has it right that any Numenoreans ensnared by Sauron into becoming Ringwraiths were from those in Middle-earth as part of Numenor's settlements there.


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## Dhôn-Buri-Dhôn (Apr 21, 2002)

Hmmm, Greenwood, interesting point. I was considering the entry for S.A 2251 in the Tale of Years, which has three sentences. The first two refer to events in Numenor. The third is about the first appearance of the Ringwraiths. I always assumed it also referred to Numenor, but that isn't necessarily true, I suppose. Especially since Sauron was not in Numenor at that time.


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## Bucky (Apr 21, 2002)

The only other origin of a Ringwraith mentioned is Khamul, 'The Shadow of the East'.


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## Úlairi (Apr 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Elanor2 _
> *OK, I'll try to answer a bit these questions. I'll grab my copies and go!
> 
> According to UT, Sauron captured the Nine during the second age, when he destroyed Eregion and captured and killed Celebrimbor. He then tried to attack Gil-galad, whom he suspected had some of the Three, but G-g was rescued by the Numenorean army that sailed from Numenor under Tar-Minastir, 11th King of Numenor (1474-1873 S.A.)
> ...



Well, so I guess that Herumor and Fuinir were not Ringwraiths. Thanks for the research Elanor2. I don't think that we will ever uncover this mystery and as Bucky has mentioned, only one of the Ulairi's name's mentioned, Khamul the Easterling, and he was second in command to the LotN. So, who is he? Any theories?


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## Lantarion (Apr 22, 2002)

Well now that's impossible to say (I'd guess he was one of the Kings or princes of Númenor, dubbed with magical powers by Sauron, but it's just a thepry..), but I will state that he most certainly was not Pallando or Alatar, as has been explained already, I believe. Just to emphasize, A and P were *Maiar*, and it does say that the Nine Rings were meant for *Mortal Men*, "doomed to die". But I see my ranting is futile. 
I am interested with this 'Herumor-Fuinir'- theory, I have not heard of them before (I have almost finished UT, but I have found no mention of them). I see now that they probably were not Nazgûl, because they arrived too late. Now I fully understand the term "Black Númenórean", thank you Bucky.


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## SpencerC18 (Apr 22, 2002)

I don't think that you guys should be so defensive on Uliiri, you guys have read the books before so it's not like you can't make up decisions and theories on your own. Everybody makes mistakes (more than once) so calm down. I'm not trying to but in your discussion or anything but I doubt he cares if Greenwood puts Ulairi on his ignore list. lol


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## SpencerC18 (Apr 22, 2002)

Oh and also, TOM BOMBADIL is the witch king! Prove me wrong! hahahahahaha


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## Greenwood (Apr 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by SpencerC18 _
> *I don't think that you guys should be so defensive on Uliiri, you guys have read the books before so it's not like you can't make up decisions and theories on your own. Everybody makes mistakes (more than once) so calm down. I'm not trying to but in your discussion or anything but I doubt he cares if Greenwood puts Ulairi on his ignore list. lol *



SpencerC18

Mistakes are forgivable and as you say everyone makes them. However, Ulairi has been caught intentionally misrepresenting Tolkien's writing just so he could sit back and laugh at people arguing over the misrepresentations he has tossed out. That is not a mistake, that is dishonest and malicious behavior. Ulairi enjoys a good discussion, as do most people here. If he sees that people will no longer discuss things with him because they do not trust him, perhaps he will mend his ways and discuss things in an honest way.


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## SpencerC18 (Apr 22, 2002)

Im pretty sure if he wanted to be "malicious" he would do something a bit more drastic. lol good lord, chill out, he was wrong give em a break


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## Úlairi (Apr 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Pontifex _
> *Well now that's impossible to say (I'd guess he was one of the Kings or princes of Númenor, dubbed with magical powers by Sauron, but it's just a thepry..), but I will state that he most certainly was not Pallando or Alatar, as has been explained already, I believe. Just to emphasize, A and P were Maiar, and it does say that the Nine Rings were meant for Mortal Men, "doomed to die". But I see my ranting is futile.
> I am interested with this 'Herumor-Fuinir'- theory, I have not heard of them before (I have almost finished UT, but I have found no mention of them). I see now that they probably were not Nazgûl, because they arrived too late. Now I fully understand the term "Black Númenórean", thank you Bucky. *



Well, I guess I've lost a few friends I thought I'd had, especially you Pontifex. I guess, just as Harad did, I have let my pride be my downfall, and now I guess it's time to patch things up with you guys. Thankyou SpencerC18 for coming to my defence, but I concede the fact that what they are saying is right. I have been like Harad and have disregarded arguments that do not help me win my arguments. From here on in, I will listen to all arguments presented and will pay heed to them. Yes Bucky, I need a piece of humble pie and let me tell you, it doesn't taste very nice.


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## Greenwood (Apr 22, 2002)

Ulairi

No need to compare yourself to Harad. It would have been unthinkable for Harad to post a message like your last one.


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## Úlairi (Apr 22, 2002)

Yes, he never would apologise to anyone would he? In some areas though, I can be compared to Harad, such as pride. His intelligence resulted in his pride, and that is happening to me also. I am considering making a public apology to everyone on the forum.


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## SpencerC18 (Apr 23, 2002)

What I really enjoy about this forum is anybody can have a really serious discussion in a mature manner. I don't think I have seen anybody make fun of anybody or even cuss. lol

Hey Greenwood, no hard feelings, I just thought you were a little drastic. lol


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## Úlairi (Apr 23, 2002)

Don't underestimate me SpencerC18, I have, as Greenwood has said, done those things and I wasn't wrong, I knew I was and I got other people arguing with me when I knew what I had said was wrong. I would say that is in a way 'malicious'. This time I was wrong however.


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## Greenwood (Apr 23, 2002)

SpencerC18

No hard feelings.  And there will be no hard feelings against Ulairi if he behaves himself.


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## Úlairi (Apr 24, 2002)

I promise from here on in Greenwood. Scout's honour.


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