# Valar Babies?



## Sulimo (Feb 14, 2012)

I know that they were spirits, and such, but did they procreate. I mean you know that Melian the Maia did, and she is the same thing just a lower choir shall we say. Hmmm. What do you folk out there think? I personally think baby Valar would be pretty cool.


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## Prince of Cats (Feb 14, 2012)

Well with Melian's case she took the form of an Elf, and Elves have the ability to reproduce. But what would the offspring of say Ulmo look like while in his oceanic form?


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## Bucky (Feb 15, 2012)

I'm not that into the early drafts of The Silmarillion as I tend to look at Middle-earth like an historian would ~ and therefore prefer an absolute, fiunished product, if that makes any sense to you.... :*rolleyes:

But, i've read Tolkien's earlier drafts, found in HoME 1-5, at least his first completed Silm, which I have read parts of, the Valar did indeed have children.

Eonwe, or whatever Tolkien called him then, was Manwe's & Varda's son. 

Of course, this route was later abandoned.


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## Troll (Feb 15, 2012)

If the Valar were capable of reproduction, I bet Morgoth would have been at it 24/7 to build his army... :*p

And if Eonwe were originally meant to be Manwe's son, it makes me wonder: is there any evidence that Sauron was ever intended to be a son of Morgoth?


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## Turgon (Feb 15, 2012)

Eonwe was originally Fionwe if I remember rightly and was the son of Manwe. It's been ages since I've read the earlier HoME books... but I think I remember Morgoth having issue... or was it issues? Heh!


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## Bucky (Feb 15, 2012)

Yes, Turgon, Fionwe was the name...

All those different names ~ err!

Tough on an historian who looks at things in black & white. :*confused:


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## Elthir (Feb 15, 2012)

In author's note 5 to _Osanwe-centa_ (Vinyar Tengwar 39) it's noted (by Pengolodh):

'The great Valar do not do these things: they beget not, neither do they eat and drink, save at the high _asari_, in token of their lordship and indwelling of Arda, and for the blessing of the sustenance of the Children. Melkor alone of the Great became at last bound to a bodily form: but that was because of the use that he made of this in his purpose to become Lord of the Incarnate, and of the great evils that he did in the visible body. Also...'


If memory serves Melkor tried to 'ravish' Arien in one of the _Myths Transformed_ texts, but not to beget offspring it seems; and in any case, as Bucky noted, Tolkien ultimately dropped the idea of the Valar having children -- elsewhere in _Morgoth's Ring_ Tolkien noted: 'Evil is fissiparous. But itself barren. Melkor could not 'beget' or have any spouse (though he attempted to ravish Arien, this was to destroy and 'distain' her, not to beget fiery offspring)'.


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## Bard the Bowman (Feb 15, 2012)

Melkor apparently wanted to mate with Luthien. Could they have produced offspring?


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## Sulimo (Feb 15, 2012)

Great responses guys. I am not that familiar with HOME after The Lays of Beleriend, and so I appreciate the insight.


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## Troll (Feb 16, 2012)

I imagine that, absent the potential of fertility, Morgoth's desire to mate with anyone or anything would be merely another means by which he could subjugate, dominate, and terrify lesser beings. What a repugnant idea.


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## Ingolmin (Dec 18, 2016)

According to me, Valar could reproduce only when they took a bodily form. But that does not mean they could not recreate. They were next in hierarchy of power to Illuvitar and I believe they also offsprings of their thoughts. Luthien, daughter of Melian is one example of the Maiar. 
But Dwarves and Ents are the examples of creation done by Valar. They can be said as Children of Aule and that of Yavanna as Men and Elves are Children of Illuvitar.


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## psycho60 (Dec 27, 2016)

Troll said:


> If the Valar were capable of reproduction, I bet Morgoth would have been at it 24/7 to build his army... :*p
> 
> And if Eonwe were originally meant to be Manwe's son, it makes me wonder: is there any evidence that Sauron was ever intended to be a son of Morgoth?



If I remember correctly, Gothmog was originally referred to as a son of Melko in the early mythos. Also, Yavanna was the mother of Orome and Tulkas also had a son in the early tales as well.


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## Ingolmin (Dec 31, 2016)

In the beginning Tolkien said many things that he corrected afterwards you know. He said that Eonwe was the son of Manwe and Gothmog was the son of Melkor but later he amended his mistakes and told that it was not so.


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