# Dwarves of Belegost



## ¤-Elessar-¤ (Jul 28, 2003)

I read through the Sil as well as I could (and still be quick about it), and couldn't find much for specifics as far as the actual dwarves, their names, and relationships go. I would really like some sort of tree of the major families, like that of Durin's line. 

I need anything, some name of a lord of Belegost... I always assumed that the first lord of Belegost would have been one of the seven fathers, but I'm not so sure... 

really, any information relevant to the dwarves of the Blue Mountains would be graciously accepted... anything?


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## Aulë (Jul 29, 2003)

*Thinks he knows why Elessar is asking this* 

Lord Azaghâl was the only Dwarf-lord of Belegost that was mentioned in The Sil. He was killed by Glaurung in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad.


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## Inderjit S (Jul 29, 2003)

The Belgostian Dwarves were of the Firebeards tribe. Their 'father' awoke in Belegost, so kings of Belegost, would have been descended from him. As Aule said, The only lord of Belegost who is named is Azahgal, who drove a knife in Glaurung's belly in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. His line may have died there, or may have died in the War of Wrath, though we dont' know.


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## Maerbenn (Jul 29, 2003)

*Western Houses*



> _Originally posted by Inderjit S _
> *The Belgostian Dwarves were of the Firebeards tribe.*


 May I ask how you deduced that the Firebeards were from Belegost and Broadbeams from Nogrod?


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## ¤-Elessar-¤ (Jul 29, 2003)

yeah, Aule, you might just know... 

A while after I posted this I stumbled upon Azaghâl, so I guess he'll have to do. 

And, as for the Firebeards, I think I remember Snaga saying something about the Firebeards of Belegost... so that sounds right.


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## Inderjit S (Jul 29, 2003)

> May I ask how you deduced that the Firebeards were from Belegost and Broadbeams from Nogrod?



Lucky guess, I think...


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## Maerbenn (Dec 27, 2003)

I was wondering, because I am not certain of it myself.


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## Inderjit S (Dec 27, 2003)

I don't think it is ever specified.


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## baragund (Jan 15, 2004)

Hi guys,

A similar topic came up in the Round 10 debate between Guild of Scholars and Guild of Outcasts. During that debate I suggested that the Longbeards were from Belegost. The judges and the other debators were, shall we say, skeptical of that idea. When I put it into the GoS opening post, Aule sent me a PM telling me I was out of my mind, Snaga stated it was a "horrible error of fact" and even Nom said I was wrong when she returned from her absence.

Was I?

As I was gathering material for the GoS opening post, I came across these passages. First, there is this from The Annals of Aman, from Morgoth's Ring. It is describing the arrival of the Dwarves in Beleriand in the Year of the Trees 1250:

Quote:
But at that time no grief lay between them, and King Thingol welcomed them; and the Longbeards of Belegost aided him in the delving and building of the great halls of Menegroth... 


Next we have a couple of passages contained in The War of the Jewells, The Later Quenta Silmarillion, Of the Naugrim and the Edain, Sec. 7:

Quote:
...and those who dwelt in Belegost they called the Ennfeng or Longbeards, for their beards swept the floor before their feet. 


Now this seems to contradict Sec. 3 that says:

Quote:
Of these (the seven Fathers of the Dwarves) Durin was the most renowned in after ages, father of that dwarf-kin most friendly to the Elves whose mansions were at Khazad-dum. 


But there is a rather long commentary on this issue located at the end of the revised QS Chapter 10 which deals mainly with how Tolkien was trying to reconcile his original conception of two races of Dwarves as described in the Tale of the Nauglafring, BOLT vol. II with the current conception of the seven races. This commentary concludes thus:

Quote:
'He was the father of the fathers of the eldest race of the Dwarves, the Longbeards, and my first ancestor: I am his heir.' It was obviously consideration of Thorin's words in The Hobbit and the need for their correction that led him to alter the text of Appendix A, which in the Second Edition (1966) reads: 'Durin is the name that the Dwarves used for the eldest of the Seven Fathers of their race, and the ancestor of all the kings of the Longbeards', with the addition of a footnote reference to the passage in The Hobbit, now published in its corrected form.

Thus, circuitously, the Longbeards finally entered The Lord of the Rings, as the Dwarves of Khazad0dum; but the texts of The Silmarillion and the Annals were never changed, and the Longbeards remained the Dwarves of Belegost. 


Next we have this passage from The Peoples of Middle Earth, The Tale of Years of the Second Age:

Quote:
About this time many dwarves fleeing from the ruins of the dwarf-cities in the Blue Mountains came to Moria, and it's power and the splendour of its works were greatly increased. 


Not much there at first glance but it reinforces the passages given above. To me, this suggests that Durin's people migrated to Moria from Belegost. Later, in Of Dwarves and Men, Relations of the Longbeard Dwarves and Men, Tolkien describes the awakening place the ancestor of the Longbeards as Mount Gundabad. This section also goes on to describe that the dwarves were reluctant to migrate from their ancestral homes but if the Longbeards could migrate to Moria, I don't see why they couldn't have migrated to Belegost as well.

What do you guys think? Am I misinterpreting all this stuff or is this one of those annoying loose ends that JRRT left for us to ponder? It seems to me that the Longbeards (who are Durin's folk) at least dwelt for a time in Belegost if not actually originating there.

btw, I put this same post in the judgement thread of that debate and nobody really took up the discussion. That means I either stumped the collective expertise of this forum (yeah, right!!) or nobody was particularly interested (perhaps) or, being buried in the Debates section, not too many people looked at it (most likely).


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## Inderjit S (Jan 17, 2004)

Durin woke alone. He did not have a ‘tribe’ (or mate) like the other fathers. The ‘Longbeards’ were may have been composed of Dwarves from the other six tribes. They resided around the Misty Mountains (spreading East and South from their original capital and meeting place of dwarves in Gundabad to Khazad-dûm ) whilst the Firebeards and Broadbeams awoke in Ered Lindon. 

Some of your sources are out-dated, or contain rejected ideas.


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## Aiwendil2 (Jan 17, 2004)

There is a reference in _The Hobbit_ to Thorin's line (that of Durin) as being the kings of the Longbeards. This ties the Lonbeards to Khazad-dum. The confusion arises because Tolkien appears to have forgotten this reference, and in the Silmarillion material from the early 1950s, the folk of Nogrod are called the Longbeards.


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## Snaga (Jan 22, 2004)

baragund said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> A similar topic came up in the Round 10 debate between Guild of Scholars and Guild of Outcasts. During that debate I suggested that the Longbeards were from Belegost. The judges and the other debators were, shall we say, skeptical of that idea. When I put it into the GoS opening post, Aule sent me a PM telling me I was out of my mind, Snaga stated it was a "horrible error of fact" and even Nom said I was wrong when she returned from her absence.
> 
> ...


 I'm thinking that as I said that, I ought to justify it. I promise to return to this thread and justify my statement. I didn't reply in the judgement thread because I didn't see it, as you suspected.


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## Snaga (Jan 23, 2004)

Having reviewed the texts I concede that my comment was harsh, but not incorrect. Baragund had more justification to connect Durin's folk with Belegost than I previously considered, but I still believe it is somewhat fanciful. You could make that interpretation to overcome the inconsistencies in the texts but it is probably not the most logical.

Unfortunately I don't have time to present a full analysis of the development of Tolkien's ideas. But it is apparent that Tolkien at first created the Longbeards as dwarves originating in the Ered Luin, but in parallel wrote Thorin's statement in the Hobbit. Later attempts to reconcile and develop the story, and at the same time elaborate the tale of the creation of the dwarves placed the Longbeards, at the same time as keeping consistent with Lord of The Rings appears to be somewhat problematic. However the references to 'Longbeards of Belegost' are excised from the published Sil. This seems in line with the latest text (in PoME) which states that the Longbeards arose in Mt Gundabad and later removed to Moria. The Firebeards and Broadbeams arose in Ered Luin, we are told, and there is no reason to think that there would have been a failing of these lines before the War of Wrath, that would have meant that a migration of Longbeards from the other side of Eriador would have left them in the majority.

Anyway sorry for the relative brevity of the post. Time is short.


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## Bucky (Jan 23, 2004)

_A similar topic came up in the Round 10 debate between Guild of Scholars and Guild of Outcasts. During that debate I suggested that the Longbeards were from Belegost. The judges and the other debators were, shall we say, skeptical of that idea. When I put it into the GoS opening post, Aule sent me a PM telling me I was out of my mind, Snaga stated it was a "horrible error of fact" and even Nom said I was wrong when she returned from her absence._

ROTFLMAO....... 

Is this stuff for real? 

"You, sir, are out are out of your mind!"

The wonders of the internet.....


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## Garwen (Feb 16, 2004)

*Dwarves/names*

And he wrought in secret: and he made first the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves in a hall under the mountains of Middle Earth.


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