# What SHOULD have been the Elves future...?



## Celebthôl (Dec 10, 2003)

If there was no Melkor to ruin the place as he did, what would have been the Elves futures?
I mean they wouldnt have to have been shipped off to Valinor, they would have had Middle Earth to themselves and when Men came (and Dwarves/Hobbits) they would have lived and is with them, but what would have become of them? Surely the world wasnt just created to prepare it for Men and then everything else just goes and fades?! 

Thoughts please...


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## Ithrynluin (Dec 10, 2003)

The Elves were not herded to Valinor only because Melkor roamed the lands of Middle-Earth, but because it was a land that fitted their natures well. If there was no Melkor the Valar would still have summoned the Elves to Valinor, since Middle-Earth was destined to become the Dominion of Men.


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## Gil-Galad (Dec 10, 2003)

That is right.
If Melkor had not spreaded away his seed of evil and distrust,ig he had not lightet the desire for new lands in the hearts of Feanor and the others,they would have stayed in Valinor.
AS Ithy said Middle-earth was created for Men,not for the Eldar.If there had not been Melkor the elves would not have had a reason to leave Valinor.


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## Celebthôl (Dec 10, 2003)

Then what was Ilúvatar talking about when he said Arda was made for the children of Ilúvatar?


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## Ithrynluin (Dec 10, 2003)

Well, the concepts of 'The Dominion of Men' and 'Arda being made for the Children of Ilúvatar' are not mutually exclusive. Men could never go to Aman, and Elves had 'access' to everything seemingly. However, they were shorn of being able to live in Middle-Earth forever. 

PS: the Undying Lands are also part of Arda.


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## Celebthôl (Dec 10, 2003)

Not anymore 

And what about after Arda is remade how it was supposed to be, they were all supposed to live together happily etc......


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## Thorin (Dec 10, 2003)

Yes, it's probable that evil wouldn't have reigned and elves and men not been corrupted had Melkor not been in Arda. However, keep in mind that Feanor devised much of the elves misery from his own actions.

The lust for the Silmarils would have created misery on their own as more and more peoples of ME would have desired them. Feanor chose to slaughter the elves at Aqualond without Melkors doing. The banishment of the Noldor from Valinor was because of Feanor.

The animosity between the elves and dwarves (i.e. killing of Thingol) had nothing to do with Melkor.


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## Celebthôl (Dec 10, 2003)

Actually all the evil that came about was because of Melkor, all the evils that happened in Arda was because Melkor had put himself into Arda and marred it....if im not mistaken.


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## Lhunithiliel (Dec 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Celebthôl _
> *If there was no Melkor to ruin the place as he did, what would have been the Elves futures?
> I mean they wouldnt have to have been shipped off to Valinor, they would have had Middle Earth to themselves and when Men came (and Dwarves/Hobbits) they would have lived and is with them, but what would have become of them? Surely the world wasnt just created to prepare it for Men and then everything else just goes and fades?!
> 
> Thoughts please... *


Then....There would've been no the marvellous "Silmarillion", or the action "LOTR"...not even the funny "Hobbit"... or anything that Tolkien taught mankind through his fantasy!  
Every character, every event as discribed in these masterpieces JUST THE WAY THEY ARE, teach us real life-lessons! One should be only willing to look deeper.
If there were no Melkor as incarnation of evil...the Elves would've not be representatives of all that purity and good that exists.
No "white" is there without "black".
No "good" is _good_ unless opposed to "evil"... Right?

A side note to Thorin: All that Feanor did and the animosity between Elves and Dwarves just as many other misfortunes that fell upon one perfect Arda were BECAUSE of Melkor. But then again, I see Melkor only in the understanding of what I said above.


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## Wonko The Sane (Dec 11, 2003)

So, then, let's say that there are two circles...like a Venn Diagram...

One contains where the Elves can have dominion, and another where the Men can live....

The circles would overlap completely except for a cicle that is Valinor, where men cannot go?

And then elves were only made to leave after the rings were destroyed...but that if there had been no evil with the rings then they could have remained in ME?


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## Ithrynluin (Dec 11, 2003)

I don't think so, Wonks.

I think the destinies of the races of Men and Elves were 'outlined' from the get-go. This is how it would be regardless of what came to pass.


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## Celebthôl (Dec 11, 2003)

That really bothers me, how is it that Men can inherit so much and Elves so little? Why are they not allowed (well not without the Elves fading) to live together? I find this grossly unfair!


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## Ithrynluin (Dec 11, 2003)

I know what you mean, Thol. It is hard to accept that the Elves would be forced out of Middle-Earth, never to interact with Men again. Perhaps these quotes will shed some light, and perhaps bring some comfort:



> _The History of Middle Earth X: Morgoth's Ring; Commentary to the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth_
> All the Elves would then 'die' at the End of Arda. What this would mean they did not know. They said therefore that Men had a shadow behind them, but the Elves had a shadow before them.
> Their dilemma was this: the thought of existence as fear only was revolting to them, and they found it hard to believe that it was natural or designed for them, since they were essentially 'dwellers in Arda', and by nature wholly in love with Arda. The alternative: that their fëar would also cease to exist at 'the End', seemed even more intolerable. Both absolute annihilation, and cessation of conscious identity, were wholly repugnant to thought and desire. Some argued that, although integral and unique (as Eru from whom they directly proceeded), each fëa, being created, was finite, and might therefore be also of finite duration. It was not destructible within its appointed term, but when that was reached it ceased to be; or ceased to have any more experience, and 'resided only in the past'.
> But they saw that this did not provide any escape. For, even if an Elvish fëa was able 'consciously' to dwell in or contemplate the Past, this would be a condition wholly unsatisfying to its desire. The Elves had (as they said themselves) a 'great talent' for memory, but this tended to regret rather than to joy. Also, however long the History of the Elves might become before it ended, it would be an object of too limited range. To be perpetually 'imprisoned in a tale' (as they said), even if it was a very great tale ending triumphantly, would become a torment. For greater than the talent of memory was the Elvish talent for making, and for discovery. The Elvish fëa was above all designed to make things in co-operation with its hröa.
> [color=sky blue]Therefore in the last resort the Elves were obliged to rest on 'naked estel' (as they said): the trust in Eru, that whatever He designed beyond the End would be recognized by each fea as wholly satisfying (at the least). Probably it would contain joys unforeseeable.[/color] But they remained in the belief that it would remain in intelligible relation with their present nature and desires, proceed from them, and include them.





> He [Finrod] then has a vision of Men as the agents of the 'unmarring' of Arda, not merely undoing the marring or evil wrought by Melkor, but by producing a third thing, Arda Re-made -for Eru never merely undoes the past, but brings into being something new, richer than the 'first design'. In Arda Re-made Elves and Men will each separately find joy and content, and an interplay of friendship, a bond of which will be the past.





> The 'waning' of the Elvish hröar must therefore be part of the History of Arda as envisaged by Eru, and the mode in which the Elves were to make way for the Dominion of Men. The Elves find their supersession by Men a mystery, and a cause of grief; for they say that Men, at least so largely governed as they are by the evil of Melkor, have less and less love for Arda in itself, and are largely busy in destroying it in the attempt to dominate it. They still believe that Eru's healing of all the griefs of Arda will come now by or through Men; but the Elves' part in the healing or redemption will be chiefly in the restoration of the love of Arda, to which their memory of the Past and understanding of what might have been will contribute. Arda they say will be destroyed by wicked Men (or the wickedness in Men); but healed through the goodness in Men. The wickedness, the domineering lovelessness, the Elves will offset. By the holiness of good men - their direct attachment to Eru, before and above all Eru's works - the Elves may be delivered from the last of their griefs: sadness; the sadness that must come even from the unselfish love of anything less than Eru.)



fëa = spirit, hröa = body

Hope this helps.


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## Wonko The Sane (Dec 12, 2003)

It helps me a little, to better understand the future of the Elves...

It did seem to me, as to Thôl, that it was unfair the way the Elves couldn't stay in ME without fading.

I see how this is necessary in order for Tolkien to create an "English" mythology, where the world he creates is meant to be this world, because obviously a world with Elves mingling freely with men would completely discredit that notion, since we don't see Elves every day.
For them to be present they'd have to be "faded" so we couldn't see them, but may only sense a whiff of their presence.
Same with Hobbits diminishing, and going into hiding, and Dwarves delving ever deeper until they perhaps, never venture above ground, etc. 


I understand the need for such things, so I appreciate it in that aspect, but I will admit I didn't like it in its own right, and the quotes all tend to hint at a second world, what is discussed in the other thread as "The Second Music" where perhaps we'll see all these issues resolved.

It's sort of sad we never got to read about what such a Second Music would entail, but I suppose if you liken it to the second coming of Christ or something, then you can say that it's a far better thing that we DON'T know what the Second music would entail.


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## HelplessModAddi (Dec 14, 2003)

If there was no Melkor to "ruin things" there would have BEEN no Elves. No men, dwarves, or hobbits either. Remember, the Children of Illuvatar were created IN RESPONSE to Melkor.


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## Celebthôl (Dec 14, 2003)

So it can be assuemed, however, the children of Ilúvatar would have been made dispite Melkor i believe, they were always going to be made.


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## Wonko The Sane (Dec 14, 2003)

> "And so it was that the vision of the World was played before them, the AInur saw that it contained things which they had not thought. And they saw with amazement the coming of the Children of Illúvatar, and the habitation that was prepared for them; and they perceived that they themselves in the labour of their music had been busy with the preparation of this dwelling, and yet knew not that it had any purpose beyond its own beauty/ For the Children of Ilúvatar were conceived by him alone; and they came with the third theme, and were not in the tehme which Ilúvatar propounded at the beginning, and none of the Ainur had part in their making."




All it says is that Ilúvatar conceived of the Children from the beginning, but kept it from the Ainur until the end of the Music. We can say that his plan was, from the beginning, to have the Ainur create a world for his Children through their music. How is this creating the Children in response to Melkor? I don't know a lot about The Sil, cos I've only just started...
But it seems to me that Ilúvatar began with the goal to create a world and to bring his Children into it.
He knew Melkor would mar the music and try to take over, but the plan to create the Children and introduce the third theme was, in my mind, already conceived.
He just had to wait for the moment to introduce it, which was AFTER Melkor attempted his mastery of the first theme....

To me this isn't response to Melkor, but rather it's all in Ilúvatar's plan. He was aware Melkor would snap, and knew the Ainur would despair. He decided to use that moment to show to them the plan he had for his Children...rather than he chose that moment to create the Children.

Does this make sense?


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## Flame of Udûn (Dec 23, 2003)

There wouldn't have been any Sun or Moon or Trees either, as the Lamps would not have been destroyed. Also Almaren would probably have been the dwelling place of the Valar, not Valinor.


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## Wonko The Sane (Dec 23, 2003)

Flame of Udun, are you saying that without Melkor those things wouldn't have been?

Just asking.


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## Lúthien Séregon (Dec 23, 2003)

If Melkor had not been, then there wouldn’t be a Valinor, because Arda in itself would be the perfection that the Valar had intended it to be without Melkor destroying everything, and their dwelling place would still be Almaren. Therefore I agree with Flame of Udun.

But wouldn't this also mean that the fates of the Elves and Humans would be different, as ultimately they would coexist in this type of environment ( unless Elves lived in Almaren )? If there was no fading of the Elves, what would Men "inherit"?


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## Wonko The Sane (Dec 23, 2003)

Well, these issues are interesting to raise.

If it is true that without Melkor the Valar would have had no reason to leave Almaren, but they may have anyway...to make room for Elves and Men in Middle-Earth, in which case Elves could still have ended up leaving for Valinor in order that men would inherit the earth.

However, I still believe that it is not becuase of Melkor that these things happened...
I think that it was Iluvatar's plan that men would inherit the earth and elves would fade all along...
And therefore he would have planned for all contingencies...Melkor and his discord was accounted for when he set out creating things...
So it's a hard issue to discuss...
But say he had left Melkor out of the picture, he still intended for Men to inherit the earth...so SOMETHING would have happened to create this eventuality.

I don't think the Valar would have stayed in Almaren the entire time though...they were creating, making the world welcome for the Children of Iluvatar, but they are not the Children themselves.
And eventually they would have had to take a step back.

Perhaps they would have started the beginning of the world in Almaren with the Elves (when they came) and they would have grown together, but eventually they would have had to leave to let the Children thrive on their own.
And then perhaps they would have retreated to Valinor to make way for the coming of men, and the men and elves could have interacted much as they did in the present scenario, before it was time for the Elves to fade and rejoin the Valar.


Just a thought...feel free to kick me if I'm being dumb.


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## Helcaraxë (Jan 10, 2004)

ithrynluin said:


> I know what you mean, Thol. It is hard to accept that the Elves would be forced out of Middle-Earth, never to interact with Men again. Perhaps these quotes will shed some light, and perhaps bring some comfort:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




While your quotes are helpful, Ithy, they are of a dubious source. Finrod argues that because the Eldar's fea are bound unto Arda, they will perish with Arda. But it is explained in a footnote that some Elves argued that because Elvish spirits originated with Eru, that they are not utterly bound to Arda and thus their fear will not die with it. But it is very important to note that these are only the uninformed opinions and beliefs of Finrod and other Elves, whose veritability is very questionable. A far more authoritative source is Tolkien himself. Many times, Tolkien alludes indirectly to the necessity of the Elves existing after the End. For instance for the "themes of Iluvatar to be played aright..", Elves would have to exist or else there could be no theme of the Elves, as I explained in another thread. He also emends "Sons of Men" to "Children of Iluvatar" (including Elves) when stating who will participate in the Second Ainulindalë. The Elves are uncertain about their End; in an attempt to come to grips with their future they postulate several sometimes contradictory theories about their own fate. I for one would trust Tolkien himself far more than the Elve's unprovable theories. 

There are countless contradictions in the much-revised and many-layered Silmarillion. But some ideas (such as the themes being "played aright" in the Second Music) are rooted so deeply and strongly in even the earliest of Tolkien's works, as well as enduring into the very last stages of the developement of the Silmaillion, that they can with some authority be taken as a literal fact.

MB


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## jallan (Jan 10, 2004)

In our own world what happens after death is unknown.

Oh, of course various religions have their varying stories, but people (except in legends and as channeled by mediums who are rather suspect) don’t come back to tell the tale.

There are also inconsistant legends of ghosts.

Tolkien, wishing to make the conditions of his first three ages of Middle-earth agree with our own world doesn’t make anything there more explicit.

Humans, it is said, pass out of the world altogether, at least according to Finrod’s belief. But the humans seem not to have any such tradition themselves. Elves also know not what happens when death eventually takes them at the end of Arda.

In neither our world or Tolkien’s legendarium is there a God who unambiguously appears and explains the whole deal.

Christianity has four Gospels, somewhat contradictory and lots of theological writing, also contradictory about Heaven, Hell, Purgatory immediately or after a long sleep until the Last Judgement. God doesn’t appear and set the record straight. Nor does Eru do it in Tolkien’s legendarium.

One is just supposed to have faith that somehow it will all work out for the best under the will of God/Eru.


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## Helcaraxë (Jan 11, 2004)

jallan said:


> In our own world what happens after death is unknown.
> 
> Oh, of course various religions have their varying stories, but people (except in legends and as channeled by mediums who are rather suspect) don’t come back to tell the tale.
> 
> ...




Again, it is only the beliefs of the Elves that their hroar will die at the End of Arda. The entire Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth is rather unreliable, as the knowledge of both Finrod and Andreth is limited when it comes to their own fates. But Tolkien implies that the Elves are present after the End, and as I said he is a far more authoritative source than Elvish hopes or fears.

MB


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