# Of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin...



## Turgon (Apr 14, 2002)

Of all the unfinished works of Tolkien, this is the one I most regret not seeing finished. I think Gondolin has a special place in the Corpus of Tolkien's writings - a completed 'Of Tuor...' would have been really something. Anyway I'd like to start a thread where we can have some interesting discussions about Gondolin - anything from Glamdring, to the Lost Tales version of the Fall (the best story in The Lost Tales!!!) So please post, the Silmarillion has been rather neglected of late...


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## Elfarmari (Apr 14, 2002)

I agree competely!! I was very disappointed when I read UT for the first time, and found that Tuor and his coming to Gondolin did not continue in another book (I mean in that much detail). Tuor is one of my favorite Tolkien characters because he listens to Ulmo, and take upon himself the errand which could have drastically altered the fate of Elves and Men. What do you think would have happened if Turgon had listened to Tuor?


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## Mormegil (Apr 14, 2002)

Turgon, have you read Unfinished Tales?
It has a much more complete and longer description of Tuor and Gondolin. 

I must say that Gondolin is perhaps my favourite place in Beleriand. A hidden kingdom that defied Morgoth to the last. The scene of two Balrog deaths, and a place only destroyed by betrayal.
If I could choose one place to live in ME, it would be Gondolin.


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## Turgon (Apr 14, 2002)

I think Tuor is a great character too, Elfamari, out of all the Edain, he's my personal favourite... I love the description of him in the Lost Tales version of the Fall of Gondolin, wandering the coasts of Nevrast... As for what would have happened if Turgon had listened to Tuor - I think the Tragedy of the Fall of Gondolin would have been averted, but things would have pretty much stayed the same - with the people of Gondolin escaping down the Sirion - but that the Voyage of Earendil and the War of Wrath would remain unchanged... but maybe the Doom of the Noldor would have found Turgon too, near the end.
Mormegil, I've read the UT version of Tuor's coming to Gondolin many times - I'm just really sad that Tolkien never got around to finishing it. Of course I still love the Lost Tales version of The Fall of G., but it would be nice if we could read a full account, that fits together with the rest of T's work. It would have been cool to read of Turgon wielding Glamdring during the Sack of Gondolin and to find out which Elf-lord wielded Orcrist (Glorfindel? Ecthelion? Maeglin?) or Sting too for that matter...


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## Beleg Strongbow (Apr 14, 2002)

Aren't u a little bias Turgon?? After all he is your son-in-law.     . I think he got it extremely lucky in the end he married an elf maiden and goes off and lioves in valinor. Very unlike his kinsman turin. Although i would like to hear more about him and everything.


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## Taran (Apr 14, 2002)

I think that 'Of Tuor and the Coming to Gondolin' is one of the best ME stories! I am presently reading UT and am reading that story. I loved the Silmarillion version. Therefore, my favorie ME stories are

Lord of the Rings
Quenta Silmarillion (especially Beren and Luthien)
Tuor and Gondolin
Akallabeth

I think those are great. And Tuor is my favorite Edain!


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## Aldanil (Apr 14, 2002)

*the earliest of all*

I'm even now in the middle of the tale of "Tuor and the Exiles of Gondolin" from The Book of Lost Tales(II), and had stopped just before Sunday dinner at the point in the story where the hero has come to the Land of Willows and seems to have lost himself in the enchantment of that most dream-like place, to the temporary dismay of the Lord of Waters. I'm very fond of Tasarinan myself, so I can definitely relate. I reread The Silmarillion for the third time during my school's spring break last fortnight concluded, having finished Humphrey Carpenter's excellent biography of JRRT just beforehand. I've been waiting to savor the earliest of all the tales that Tolkien created, which he began in 1916-1917 under the shadow of war, and am saving to round out my tour with Tuor the version of the story told in Unfinished Tales, with its breathtaking scene of Ulmo rising out of the Sea. I'm sure that I'll have much more to say when I'm done, but who has time now for posting? The Ulumuri await!


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## Turgon (Apr 15, 2002)

I'm reading 'Tuor and the Exiles' too...! The descriptive prose in The Land of the Willows section is wonderful, in all the early wanderings of Tuor in fact. '...and it is said that all butterflies and their kindred were born in the valley of the Land of the Willows.'
I love that...!? Hehe! Anyway, hope you're enjoying it as much as I am...


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## Camille (Apr 19, 2002)

Yes, when I read the UT and Tuor finally went througth the gates you expect more  
But what happened to Voromwë, Tuor's friend after the fall of gondolin, did he went with the exiles? did he returned to Aman?


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## Turgon (Apr 19, 2002)

I've always wondered that too, Camille... nothing much is said of him after he guides Tuor to Gondolin, but in the Book of Lost Tales, Voronwe (he's called Bronweg in the early version), escapes the Fall of Gondolin and sails with Earendil on his voyages. There's no mention of him in the Silmarillion 'Voyage' though, the mariners who sail with Earendil are named as Falathar, Erellont and Aerandir... so maybe in the end he sailed off with his old friend Tuor... Tuor needed someone to help him sail his ship after all...


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## Camille (Apr 19, 2002)

Yes maybe he went back to Eressea I am not sure at tne Book of lost tales there is a character named like little heart or something, he is one of the elves that are saying stories to elfwine, I remember that it is said that he is the son of Voromwë but I am not sure


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## Turgon (Apr 19, 2002)

Littleheart, son of Bronweg - I forgot about him... but yes, your right, he's the one who actually tells the Tale of the Fall of Gondolin... that's cool...


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## Camille (Apr 19, 2002)

Yes but I do not remermber if the tale said something about voronwë, I will look tonight and post later


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## Bucky (Apr 22, 2002)

>>>>What do you think would have happened if Turgon had listened to Tuor?

If Turgon had left with the entire population of Gondolin, they probably would've been attacked by a large force sent out from Angband.

If they made it to the mouths of Sirion, they would've definitely been spied & brought down the wrath of Morgoth in a big way.

But, let's say they escaped unnoticed. Morgoth would still be looking high & low for 'Gondolin', & since he didn't know where it was & the new location wasn't as secure, Morgoth's spies would find it sooner than later.

In the mean time, you'd have the reminant of Doriath on one side with their Silmaril & the High King of the Noldor on the other. 
Maybe Turgon would get a little jealous of those in posession of the Silmaril. Look what it did to Thingol.

So, if Morgoth didn't find 'em, the Sons of Feanor would have anyway....... 


BTW, In 'a Description of Numenor' UT, footnote #1, it says Tour wielded an axe, not Glamding or Orchist......


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## Turgon (Apr 22, 2002)

Tuor wielding an axe? That rings some bells... It was called Dramborleg or something... became a Numenorean relic... can't remember anyone saying that he wielding Glamdring or Orcrist... In the Hobbit it states that these swords were wielded by Elf-Lords, Glamdring by the King (i.e. Turgon), Orcrist by somebody else... but it would have to be a major Elf-Lord to give it the sword the fame it later carried...


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## Camille (Apr 29, 2002)

Yesh do not remember about Tuor and a Sword I remeber that Tour killed 5 Balrogs with his axe.
I have look in the Fall of Gandoling Satory and I did not find anything about the destiny of Voronwë.
But waht Happend to thorondor (is that his name?) the lord of the Eagles, hi is not mencionated again in the Tales, and in LOTR we have another lord of the eagles the one that rescued Frodo and Help Gandalf.


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## Aldanil (Apr 29, 2002)

Somehow, I don't think that Eagles, even as noble as Thorondor and his mighty kin, share quite the immortality of the Elves, and it's many long years from the Fall of Gondolin to the Fall of Sauron.


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## Camille (Apr 29, 2002)

Yes maybe, Have your read it? because the Eagles were the heralds of Manwe


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## Turgon (Apr 29, 2002)

*Thorondor*

I've just had a quick look to see whether or not I could turn something up about Thorondor... the only thing I've found up to now is this from 'Morgoth's Ring' (HoME) from an essay on Orcs


> What of talking beasts and birds with reasoning and speech?... Huan and Sorontar (Thorondor) could be Maiar - emissaries of Manwe. But unfortunately in The Lord of the Rings Gwaehir and Landroval are said to be descendants of Sorontar...


 This essay mentions the problem of the eagles but doesn't really go into too much depth about it - Tolkien himself seems a little undecided. Think I need to do a bit more research - unless one of our resident loremasters can answer the question. 
First Voronwe, now Thorondor - What's going on here Professor Tolkien? What happened to them? The Gondolindrim have a right to know...!?! I smell a conspiracy here...


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## Camille (Apr 30, 2002)

Yes there something in the Fall of Gondolin that are not clear at all, I am going to read the story today, maybe I could another issues.
Hye turgon what happend to you "Ghost King of Gondolin" title are you thinking in the Club??


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## Turgon (May 3, 2002)

Couldn't find anything else about Thorondor's fate... Maybe he _was_ mortal, or else slain during the War of Wrath (although that is a something of a wild surmise!?!)


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## Camille (May 3, 2002)

coulnt find anything about him either but maybe you are right an he was mortal.


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## Elfarmari (Aug 22, 2002)

I was just thinking about this topic again, so I'm resurrecting the thread. 

Ulmo told Turgon he should leave Gondolin; so I'm sure he saw a hopeful end (i.e., they don't all die). Perhaps they could have set sail with the silmaril (after Earendil?) Or Ulmo could have guided them to Tol Eressea? Or maybe Ulmo had another, safer refuge in mind? Does anyone have any wild speculations?


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## Maedhros (Aug 23, 2002)

Well, I think that he basically told Turgon that he needed to go back to Valinor and beg for forgiveness to the Valar.
From the Book of Lost Tales


> There have come to the ears of Ulmo whispers of your dwelling and your hill of vigilance against the evil of Melko, and he is glad: but his heart is wroth and the hearts of the Valar are angered who sit in the mountains of Valinor and look upon the world from the peak of Taniquetil, seeing the sorrow of the thraldom of the Noldoli and the wanderings of Men; for Melko ringeth them in the Land of Shadows beyond hills of iron. Therefore have I been brought by a secret way to bid you number your hosts and prepare for battle, for the time is ripe."





> Then spake Tuor: "Nay, if thou dost not now dare greatly then will the Orcs dwell for ever and possess in the end most of the mountains of the Earth, and cease not to trouble both Elves and Men, even though by other means the Valar contrive hereafter to release the Noldoli; but if thou trust now to the Valar, though terrible the encounter, then shall the Orcs fall, and Melko's power be minished to a little thing."


It was not so much as a secret safe way, but to make Turgon see that he needed the forgiveness of the Valar so that he could save his people from the peril of Melkor.


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## Hama (Aug 23, 2002)

Finally! A thread dedicated to Gondolin and Tuor, possibly my favourite place and individual, respectively, in the First Age of Middle Earth. The fall of Gondolin is one of the greatest parts of Tolkien's work, in my humble opinion. 



> _Originally posted by Turgon _
> *Couldn't find anything else about Thorondor's fate... So I have to surmise that...
> B)He was killed by Ancalagon in the War of Wrath B]*


*

I also wish there was more written about the War of Wrath. I mean, it was probably the greatest war of all time in Middle Earth's history. And yet we don't know who most of the key characters were in them, and who died, with the exception of some small details from the Silmarillion.

Thorondor may have gone to Valinor, being a Maia, but yes, if Gwaihir and Landroval are his descendants....hmmm... but Melian did have mortal descendants as well. Unfortunately there is a lot of details which have no written work by Tolkien gives specifics about. 

Oh, about stories that are great, I would have to include the battle between the Dwarves and Orcs in the Appendix of the Lord of the Rings. 

It would be great if there was such an Appendix written about the first age, so that we can know more details about how it was like to live in say, Gondolin or Nargothrond, or even Doriath. A timeline would also have been handy.*


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## Confusticated (Sep 6, 2002)

I am sorry that the Entire Quenta Silmarillion was not written as this story from Lost Tales. The part where Tuor wandered along the shores presented me with the most vivid imaginings I've experienced from Tolkien's writtings. The description of Ulmo was amazing. I can see every detail of him, and the shores so thoroughly that I can feel what it must have been like to be there. I was pleasantly surprise by his prophetic speaking of Earendel too. The mood set by the first portion of the story is one that I find unique among all of the Tolkien's writings I have read so far. The time that went by during Tuor's wanderings can be felt, the calm of the shores as he wandered safely along in a world full of danger and horror. He was called into it, and he went. The people of Gondolin, including The King's own daughter watching the Tower of Turgon, their king, fall as they snuck away from their ruined city...Reading this I gained a new understanding of just how great this city was....and as Turgon even said..."Great is the fall of Gondolin" causing a shudder among the people...Yes, great it was. I also realise how great Glorfindel's death was, since I see so well what the refugees had been through before he saved them. Also Ecthelion is now among my favorite Elves because of what is told of him in the story.
And I could go on and on because I just read this a couple nights ago, and once again I got more than I expected from Tolkien...When will I learn?.. 
PS: as far as what was asked bout how things would have Turned out if Turgon has listened to Tuor...someone else left a good quote for that.
And about the Eagles...I do not know.


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## Turgon (Oct 20, 2002)

*Orcrist*

Okay a lot of worthy comments and spectulations are made on this forum and members here like nothing more than to argue about the deep metaphysical issues of Tolkien's work. As for me I tend to get side-tracked by the more 'trivial' elements of the good professor's work. So I hereby open the floor to the most burning question (in my mind at least) ever posed in Annals of Middle-earth. Who wielded Orcrist? Seems like a stupid question on the surface, but I'm convinced that an answer can be found.

Tolkien tells us that Glamdring was wielded by Turgon, King of Gondolin; Tolkien also tells us that Orcrist was Glamdring's mate and that both these swords were forged in Gondolin. Orcrist it is also said was a famous blade and so must have been wielded by a great hero. But who could this hero be? By process of elimination we can rule out Tuor, for he wielded Dramborleg, an axe; we can also rule out Maeglin for he wielded Anguirel, Anglachel's mate. Two other great hero's spring to mind without delving into the BoLT for more candidates - Glorfindel and Ecthelion... yet in my opinion Glorfindel is an unlikely candidate, for it's doubtful, though not impossible, that his sword would have been recovered after his fall into the abyss. This leaves us with Ecthelion - is he a possible contender? His sword, it is told, fell from his hand before he and Gothmog fell into the fountain and so would have been left for anybody to plunder - what do you think possibility or pointless speculation? Does anybody have any other candidates in mind?

Any thoughts?


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## Maedhros (Oct 27, 2002)

Well you have the people of the _Sable Mole_, whose *Maeglin* was their leader, and they fought with axes two-headed like mattocks so you can discount those of his house.
You have too the _Folk of the Swallow_ whose leader was *Duilin*, but they used bows, so you can discount him too.
There were also those of the _Heavenly Arch_, and whose leader was *Egalmoth*, they used swords and bows, but his sword was bent -- now none else of the Noldor bore curved swords, so you can count him out.
You have the host of the _Pillar_ and of the _Tower of Snow_, who were led by *Penlod*. I don't think that it specifies if they used some kind of different weapons, but I would guess that they used swords.
We have also those of the Tree, led by Galdor, but they used iron-studded clubs or with slings, so you can discount him too.
You have those of the _Golden Flower_, whose leader was *Glorfindel*. I don't think it specifies that he used a sword, but from LOTR, he uses one, so I assume that he wields a sword unless I have a reference that contradicts it.
There is the People of the _Fountain_, whose leader is Echtelion, and he used a sword.
Those of the _Harp_, whose leader was _Salgant_, i think that if otherwise proven, he used a sword.
Then they were those folk of the _Hammer of Wrath_, whose leader was [Rog], and they used "great maces like hammers", sounds familiar?
There are those of the Emblem of the _White Wing_, whose leader was Tuor, but he used an axe.
There were also the folk of the _Royal house_. They stood with Turgon until the end, and since the swords were mates, I would venture to guess that it must have been used by one of Turgon's Royal House.


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## Turgon (Oct 27, 2002)

Hey thanks for the research Maedhros - though you forgot to mention that Rog wielded a curved blade... The only elf to do so if I remember rightly... my first thought on this matter was that the sword could have belonged to Aredhel, as sister to Turgon it was quite possible that Orcrist could have been forged for her use, and it would not be totally out of character her to wield a sword, she was something of an amazon after all. But on reflection Aredhel did nothing to earn the fame which Orcrist later carried, and died some years before the Fall of Gondolin. I do however believe that as mate to Glamdring, Turgon's sword, Orcrist would have been wielded by somebody of great consequence (though perhaps my Ecthelion theory is rather romantic... it does appeal to me!)

Perhaps you are right though, Orcrist could have been wielded by an unnamed captain of Turgon's guard... one must presume that the swords were looted from more or less the same place (or a least by the same person/persons) for them to have remained together as a pair after the Fall... so at a guess it must have been somebody who made their stand in the Courtyard of the King... but that still doesn't rule Ecthelion out... hehe... the truth is out there!

On another note - is it possible that Maeglin could have forged Glamdring and Orcrist? He was a good smith, I'm sure as Eöl's son he would have learnt much at father's knee... again speculative... but not entirely impossible?


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## Maedhros (Oct 27, 2002)

> On another note - is it possible that Maeglin could have forged Glamdring and Orcrist? He was a good smith, I'm sure as Eöl's son he would have learnt much at father's knee... again speculative... but not entirely impossible?


Who can truly say? From what I have read from the The Fall of Gondolin, I gather that Maeglin was the best smith (one of the best) in Gondolin, and he was in favour with the King, his uncle, so it would not surprise me that he could have made them. Althought those of his house (Mole), used axes rather than swords.


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