# Your ultimate guide to the 2nd Age (show?)



## Annatar (Feb 21, 2022)

Probably the best way to hate the Amazon show is to revisit Tolkien's Second Age texts intensively just before the series starts (which I have already done within the last year).

I'd therefore recommend the following reading:




*0. Optional: General, helpful and overarching reading*​
_Lord of the Rings Appendices:
- Appendix E: Pronunciation of Words and Names
- Appendix F: The Languages and Peoples of the Third Age
- Appendix F: On Translation_

This basic reading is actually optional for your focus on the Second Age, but I'd generally recommend it for all Tolkien texts as important basic knowledge.
In my opinion, it's quite useful to be able to pronounce the many Elvish (and other foreign language) words halfway correctly and to get a feeling for their compositions and meanings, which is, by the way, why I got into the habit of looking up many names on https://www.glyphweb.com/arda. The pronunciation, stress and translation notes there should be correct in most cases.
(Also, if you read this and time it, you'll know why the name "Elanor 'Nori' Brandyfoot" from the Amazon series makes no sense at all.)

*I. Introduction and rough overview of the history of Numenor and Middle-earth in the 2nd Age*​
_Lord of the Rings Appendices:
- Appendix A: Annals of the Kings and Rulers. I. The Númenorian Kings. 1. Númenor. 
- Appendix B: The Tale of Years. The Second Age._
(Amazon, ironically, only has the rights to these LotR-appendices.)

_Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-earth:
- The Line of Elros: Kings of Númenor_

I recommend these lists of dates and facts both as an introduction and as a reference for chronological classification, when you delve into the details later.

*II. Numenor*​
1. Description of the island of Numenor​
_Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-earth:
- A Description of the Island of Númenor_

This is a geography and biology lesson. Belongs to the basics, in order to be able to let the images in your mind work more detailed with the further stories.

2. History and downfall of Numenor​
_Silmarillion:_
- _*Akallabêth*_

This is actually the most important source for Numenor and especially its downfall. If you have limited time, this would be my first recommendation.

3. Zoom in on early history​
_Unfinished Tales:
- Aldarion and Erendis: The Mariner's Wife_

In addition to the very interesting and for Tolkien unusual story, one learns also a lot about Middle-earth during that time. Narratively a highlight.
This episode concerns esp. the years of Tar Aldarion and his kin, ca. 600-1300 S.A., even before the Rings of Power were forged.
Here Tolkien proves that he can also portray the inner life of his characters very impressively.
(Furthermore, this shows once again that Tolkien also described strong and emancipated women who are nevertheless female. So there's actually no reason for film or series makers to compulsively invent more dominant women or to rewrite women's roles into male-like characters, if only they knew and respected the original works.)

*III. Middle-earth in S.A.*​
1. The forging of the Rings of Power and Sauron's attack on Eriador​
_Silmarillion:_
- _*Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age*_

Even if it's (as the title says) also about the Third Age, it's probably the second most important story to the 2nd Age, at least from a historical perspective.

More interesting details on this in passages from:
_Unfinished Tales:
- The History of Galadriel and Celeborn (without the part about Amroth and without the appendices)._

2. About the Elves​
_Unfinished Tales:
- The History of Galadriel and Celeborn and of Amroth, King of Lórien (including parts of the appendices)._

Here you learn quite a lot about important Elves like Galadriel, Celeborn, Amroth, Thranduil. But also about their kingdoms in Middle-earth.
Galadriel is even described here as a female counterpart to Feanor, but in the end she manages to go the right way. Although she is also physically more than fit, her true strength lies especially in her spiritual power.

3. The (early) Numenorian colonists in Eriador​
Again:
_Unfinished Tales:
- The History of Galadriel and Celeborn and of Amroth, King of Lórien - but here mainly parts of the appendices._

Here you can learn about the early settlements and colonies of the Numenorians, especially in Minhiriath and Enedwaith, and the difficult relationship of the Numenorians to the local inhabitants (who were relatives of the House of Haleth and ancestors of the Dunlendings in this quite northern region).
So it wasn't just the Black Numenorians who treated the locals with disrespect. In the north of Middle Earth, there were also problems with the locals throughout, and the "good" Numenorians were not innocent in this, for they often treated anyone they did not directly recognize as relatives to their First Age ancestors as an enemy.

Information on this can also be found in:
_Unfinished Tales:
- Excerpts from: "Aldarion and Erendis: The Mariner's Wife"._
(See above, but this story mainly offers information about Numenor.)

*IV. Bonus material*​
1. Dwarves and Pre-Rohirrim​
_History of Middle-earth XII - The Peoples of Middle-earth
- Of Dwarves and Men_

Apart from Elves and Numenorians there are of course also other races in Middle-earth in the 2nd Age as well.
From this chapter, some passages are relevant for the Second Age, especially concerning dwarves and men and their ancestry and languages.
Among other things, you learn about the symbiosis between dwarves and the ancestors of the Rohirrim and other people from Rhovanion, such as the people from Dale/Esgaroth.

2. Story about inhabitants of the later Gondor, when the Numenorians arrived​
_History of Middle-earth XII - The Peoples of Middle-earth
- Tal-Elmar_

It's a story set in the 2nd Age among the indigenous peoples near the coasts of (later) Gondor who come into contact with the Numenorians. What's interesting here is that the story seems kind of alien and very vague in terms of time and place, but at the same time it still fits well, and also explains why there was a lot of conflict with the Numenorians and how susceptible the locals were to Sauron's manipulations.

3. Letters​
The_ letters no. 131 and no. 154_ provide some additional information or summaries about the 2nd Age.




What are your recommendations?
Would you set the focus differently?
Have I forgotten anything?


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## ZehnWaters (Feb 22, 2022)

Annatar said:


> Probably the best way to hate the Amazon show is to revisit Tolkien's Second Age texts intensively just before the series starts (which I have already done within the last year).
> 
> I'd therefore recommend the following reading:
> 
> ...


No Nature of Middle-Earth?


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## Annatar (Feb 23, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> No Nature of Middle-Earth?


Yes, there's also something about the Second Age.
However, I haven't yet read that myself.


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## Olorgando (Feb 23, 2022)

Annatar said:


> *0. Optional: General, helpful and overarching reading*​*I. Introduction and rough overview of the history of Numenor and Middle-earth in the 2nd Age*​*II. Numenor*​*III. Middle-earth in S.A.*​*IV. Bonus material*​


I'm not sure this is quite such a good idea.
Too much of the writing is self-contradictory (since stemming from widely-spaced times JRRT worked on it).


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## Annatar (Feb 23, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> Too much of the writing is self-contradictory


What, for example? I actually only found contradictions in the "Unfinished Tales", where they are directly explained and classified by Christopher.

For a film adaptation, by the way, I'd be okay if any version of it was used. For me, canon is basically any version that Tolkien came up with. As far as I know, he sometimes returned to earlier versions, so I wouldn't want to impose a chronological hierarchy. Unless, of course, he himself published a version of it during his lifetime, in which case only this one is valid in the end.
Indeed, I believe that he himself wanted to bring everything into line with the published versions. Even if this has led to the fact that, for example, in "The Hobbit", significant changes were made again afterwards with regard to the One Ring. Tolkien managed this by a narrative trick.
So, as is almost always the case, the answer is not simple.


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## Olorgando (Feb 23, 2022)

In the 2017 "Beren and Lúthien", Christopher Tolkien was not able to cobble together a complete tale, as he more or less was able to ten years earlier in "The Children of Húrin". Instead, B&L collected all of the variants of the tale - was it eight? - that had been spread out over several volumes of HoMe. Beren had originally been an Elf; the changing concept of Elu Thingol; Tevildo instead of Sauron; etc.

In other places, genealogies shifted. Finrod was at some point not Felagund (?), Gil-galad's confused parentage (and never mind the late insertion Galadriel!), the watchful peace until the Battle of Sudden Flame got longer and longer; etc.

JRRT seems often to have been trying things out - "thinking with his pen" is a statement I vaguely recall. This is one thing Hostetter's "The Nature of Middle-earth" showed quite clearly in the numerous variations on time, ageing and Elven generations in part one of his book. In this part I have the impression that JRRT again and again tried something out - and as often came to the conclusion "ah, no, that won't work". And that he never reached the conclusion that any of the versions were to his satisfaction.


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## m4r35n357 (Feb 24, 2022)

The latest complete B&L is in the Quenta Noldorinwa of c.1930 (HoME vol. 4). It is _remarkably_ good IMO.

Problems mostly arise when trying to combine ideas from different "eras" of development.

Using HoME it is possible to "cut across" the time-line at various eras, or checkpoints; within these it is more or less possible to construct reasonably self-consistent texts.

I have done this with the c.1937 Quenta Silmarillion (HoME vol. 5, with "infill" from vol.4 where necessary). It is a rich mixture of various related "sources" written by various Elves of Valinor and Eressea, memorized and translated by Eriol of England. It also has Angband on the map!

The Annals of Aman, Grey Annals and Quenta Silmarillion (I) (HoME vols 10 & 11) are also mostly self-consistent, but incomplete.

The Lost Tales are reasonably self-consistent, but incomplete.

The stuff in Quenta Silmarillion (II) (HoME vols 10 & 11) is a _mess_, and together with other "later "writings" (PoME, NoME) is the cause of most of the hair-pulling and heated discussion here and on the internet at large.

If you avoid the temptation to "mix & match" from different eras, there is a lot of _productive_ fun to be had with all the variants! IMO there is no point speculating on the "definitive" or "latest" texts, because they simply wont fit together - just read the published Silmarillion, you won't do any better than CT did!


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## Olorgando (Feb 24, 2022)

Incomplete. Or, to use the book title chosen for the first post-"Silmarillion" publication by Christopher Tolkien, "Unfinished Tales".



m4r35n357 said:


> The stuff in Quenta Silmarillion (II) (HoME vols 10 & 11) is a _mess_, and together with other "later "writings" (PoME, NoME) is the cause of most of the hair-pulling and heated discussion here and on the internet at large.


I can certainly second that. JRRT spent his probably most productive years from 1937 (when he was 45) to 1949 (when he was 57) writing LoTR.
And another six probably frustrating years until LoTR had been completely published.
In 1945 he switched from the Rawlinson and Bosworth professorship to the Merton professorship.
In 1947 the Tolkiens (now including only Priscilla) moved, after 17 years, from 20 Northmoor Road to Manor Road in Oxford.
As per Scull & Hammond's 2006 "Chronology" part of their "The J.R.R. Tolkien Companion and Guide", "Many of Tolkien's papers go missing during the move."
In 1950 the Tolkiens (still including Priscilla) moved from Manor Road to Holywell 99 .
In 1953 they again moved (now only the two of them), to Sanfield Road in the Oxford suburb of Headington, where they remained until the 1968 move to Poole by Bournemouth.
Edith had turned 60 in 1949, JRRT in 1952. At the latest during the 1950's their health began to decline. At the latest in the 1960's, JRRT also noticed a decline in his mental faculties, including his memory. Not the best precondition to pull together divergent variants of tales he had been at work at for over 40 years by the late 1950's. Even worse as he seemed to be determined to consign even more earlier work to his "Lost Tales" cache (meaning Christopher would have had far more than the two volumes he finally edited under this title).
A last thought. Among the many "sources" that may have influenced JRRT in his youth and young adulthood, and about which he voiced positive opinions about in that early phase, when he returned to them decades later, his opinion had taken a turn for the worse. The stellar example may be "Smith of Wootton Major", which he began as a preface to a reissue of George MacDonald's famous fairy story "The Golden Key". JRRT found that his opinion of MacDonald's work had decidedly taken a turn for the worse, and the reissue had to do without a preface by JRRT.
Maybe JRRT had a similar change of heart of the writings of his younger self. That infamous statement "but one cannot write like that anymore" (somewhere in late HoMe).


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## m4r35n357 (Feb 24, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> Edith had turned 60 in 1949, JRRT in 1952. At the latest during the 1950's their health began to decline. At the latest in the 1960's, JRRT also noticed a decline in his mental faculties, including his memory. Not the best precondition to pull together divergent variants of tales he had been at work at for over 40 years by the late 1950's. Even worse as he seemed to be determined to consign even more earlier work to his "Lost Tales" cache (meaning Christopher would have had far more than the two volumes he finally edited under this title).


I suppose this explains why he could not give Christopher any useful strategy or guidance in composing the Silmarillion before he died, despite "expecting" him to do so. In particular, Christopher did not even know about the Later Annals of Valinor/Beleriand until after publication.

Interesting, I was not aware of any additional "Lost Tales" material. I thought the main missing item was the (unwritten) Tale of Earendil. Are you talking about stuff we still have not seen yet?


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## Olorgando (Feb 24, 2022)

m4r35n357 said:


> Interesting, I was not aware of any additional "Lost Tales" material. I thought the main missing item was the (unwritten) Tale of Earendil. Are you talking about stuff we still have not seen yet?


No, not that. JRRT abandoned the scenario of transmission of the Elvish legends through Aelfwine / Eriol (or was it the other way around?) of the Anglo-Saxon period of England in Christopher's BoLT volumes 1 and 2, post the Viking attacks (?) but before the Norman conquest, though aspects of the legends as told in the Cottage of Lost Play or whatever survived to the end. No, I mean that the "Lost Tales" sequence would have extended basically to the first five volumes of HoMe; all writing pre-LoTR.


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## ZehnWaters (Feb 24, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> the watchful peace until the Battle of Sudden Flame got longer and longer; etc.


As it should have, in my opinion.


Olorgando said:


> JRRT seems often to have been trying things out - "thinking with his pen" is a statement I vaguely recall. This is one thing Hostetter's "The Nature of Middle-earth" showed quite clearly in the numerous variations on time, ageing and Elven generations in part one of his book. In this part I have the impression that JRRT again and again tried something out - and as often came to the conclusion "ah, no, that won't work". And that he never reached the conclusion that any of the versions were to his satisfaction.


Like Galadriel being Amroth's step-mother? I'm still rather smitten with the idea.



Olorgando said:


> As per Scull & Hammond's 2006 "Chronology" part of their "The J.R.R. Tolkien Companion and Guide", "Many of Tolkien's papers go missing during the move."


Oof. It's like being stabbed in the heart. I've almost lost ALL of my documents in a computer glitch (twice). It's not fun.


Olorgando said:


> Maybe JRRT had a similar change of heart of the writings of his younger self. That infamous statement "but one cannot write like that anymore" (somewhere in late HoMe).


Also something I've experienced. You're a different person as you age.


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## Annatar (Mar 17, 2022)

Halasían said:


> *Sans* the editorial parts


Why "sans"? Are you from France?
Eh bien, je comprends un peu le français aussi.


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## Halasían (Mar 17, 2022)

*Gets crayons out*


> sans
> /sanz/
> 
> _preposition_
> ...



• "*Sans* the editorial parts, this is a good reference listing"


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## Annatar (Mar 17, 2022)

Halasían said:


> *Without
> • *"flavorful vegetarian dishes *sans *meat, eggs, or milk"
> [....]
> • "*Sans* the editorial parts, this is a good reference listing"


As I said, I also know some French, and that's where "sans" comes from.
My "editorial parts" / comments to this listing here are exquisite meat, but you must be a vegan. 🤣

But maybe I misunderstood you, since you usually only make fun of my posts. 
Do you mean the introductory and commentary paragraphs by Christopher Tolkien in HoME and Unfinished Tales?
I find them difficult to read, but they are a useful addition.



Annatar said:


> Do you mean the introductory and commentary paragraphs by Christopher Tolkien in HoME and Unfinished Tales?
> I find them difficult to read, but they are a useful addition.


I mean, without these comments one could not understand the chronology of the texts. Christopher gives many hints here about how his father thought and worked. His additions are partly necessary to be able to correctly classify and at least partly understand different, contradictory versions.

Of course, these introductory texts and parallel versions are, however, rather annoying for someone who is only interested in good stories. But as a Tolkienist, you have to fight your way through it, I would say.

It can be seen as an advantage or a disadvantage, but these different versions open up a kind of parallel dimensions and at the same time also show how Tolkien's ideas have evolved, even if he often did not come to a satisfactory conclusion, for example concerning the origin of the orcs.

I find it an interesting question how to deal with all these possibilities that Tolkien designed. Does it really make sense to define certain things as canon when he later changed his mind?

In general, my opinion on this is that one should consider every contradictory version as equal (and thus as a parallel dimension), since from a chronological point of view he often discarded views and went back to earlier versions.

So most of the time it's difficult to prioritize unless a version is obviously really outdated and obviously forever reimagined, such as the very early beginnings of The Lord of the Rings.

In the end one might have to get a look at what Tolkien pretty quickly dismissed as nonsense forever, and what Tolkien pondered his whole life and changed his mind on multiple occasions. And of course also the many gray areas in between.


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## Halasían (Mar 18, 2022)

Annatar said:


> But maybe I misunderstood you, since you usually only make fun of my posts.


I don’t make fun of your posts, I just laugh at many of them… because… well… they make me laugh. Some of your post have some worthy content though.


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## Annatar (Mar 18, 2022)

Halasían said:


> Some of your post have some worthy content though.


I'm curious whether I will discover a posting with "worthy content" from you at some point too.
Or let's say, one with "content". One should not expect too much.


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## Halasían (Mar 18, 2022)

You funny.
Going from what I've seen of your activity here, a worthy' post in your eyes is one that slags on Rings of Power before even one episode shows.
You won't see that from me.


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## Lómelindë Lindórië (May 24, 2022)

Annatar said:


> One should not expect too much.


One should not hold themselves in too high an ego either.

I'll tell you, @Halasían's posts are as worthy as can be. Don't underestimate his power.

*The Maia of Varda and Manwe hath spoken.*


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## Halasían (May 24, 2022)

𝓜𝓲𝓻𝓲𝓮𝓵 𝓘𝓽𝓱𝓲𝓵𝔀𝓮𝓷 𝓐𝓶𝓪𝓷𝓲𝓮𝓵 said:


> One should not hold themselves in too high an ego either.
> 
> I'll tell you, @Halasían's posts are as worthy as can be. Don't underestimate his power.
> 
> *The Maia of Manwe hath spoken.*


You're too kind 𝓜𝓲𝓻𝓲𝓮𝓵. How did you format your username text?


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## Lómelindë Lindórië (May 25, 2022)

Halasían said:


> You're too kind 𝓜𝓲𝓻𝓲𝓮𝓵.


_Hannon-le_, @Halasían! You get credit for being the first to say that. 


Halasían said:


> How did you format your username text?


It's through a font changer - now if it was @Annatar asking me the exact same question, I would have told him "It's a secret.", like I always do, just to stay away from him and his rings...but something still draws me to him, and I don't know what that is...

I'm not meant to be drawn to a Maia of Melkor - I'm a Maia of Varda and Manwe...


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## Annatar (Jun 24, 2022)

Aha, Brian Sibley apparently read my thread and is now turning it into a book. 

I demand a financial participation! 😬









New Tolkien book: <em>The Fall of Númenor</em> to be published


HarperCollins have announced that a new Tolkien publication, The Fall of Númenor, will be published on 10th November 2022. Edited by well-known Tolkien expert Brian Sibley, the book collects together J.R.R. Tolkien's writings of the…




www.tolkiensociety.org


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## Child of Varda (Monday at 2:19 PM)

I don't think it would be wise to make an entire show encompassing the whole of the Second Age. I am not saying it could not be done, but I think the storytelling could be told in an overarching fashion and many parts would have to feel episodic, such as the tale of Aldarion and Erendis, for instance, which has minimal relation to Sauron's return or the great rings. That feels akin to adapting the Third Age and having one episode entitled "The Hobbit" and another entitled "The War of Dwarves and Dragons" and so forth.
If, however, you ask me how to do what Amazon is trying to do in a way more faithful to the lore, making a television series about Sauron's return, his rise to power, and his fall, mine would probably look something like this:
*Season 1*
Season 1 would surround Celebrimbor primarily and him falling for the deceits of Annatar. Secondary characters would be others in Eregion such as Galadriel, Celeborn, Celebrían, and Narvi. Other characters would probably be Elrond, Gil-Galad, Círdan, Dúrin III, and perhaps, if Lórinand becomes relevant because of Galadriel and her family's association there around this time, Amroth, Nimrodel, and Amdír-Malgalad (provided they have the rights to him) might appear. A secondary plot might involve the introduction of Minastir. If necessary, he could be introduced in the next season so as not to interfere with the timeline, but I think he would be a useful character because, other than having aided the Elves in the War of Elves and Sauron, he is known to have loved the Elves but envied them. This quote is in Appendix A, so Amazon has the rights to it. I think Minastir is useful because it could be used for foreshadowing for Númenor's fall because Men envied Elvish immortality.
*Season 2*
This would concern the War of Elves and Sauron and be about roughly the same characters. If not introduced in the previous season, Minastir, Ciryatur, and Tar-Telperiën would also be present. This would feature the death of Celebrimbor, now fully redeemed. There might be some time compression here for an adapted format, but nowhere near as much as we are getting.
*Season 3*
This season might surround the first appearance of the Nazgûl and feature the beginning of the love story of Elrond and Celebrían and Galadriel and Celebrimbor in Belfalas (depending on which timeline we are following). The lore is loose enough that several things can be done with the story, but Sauron's power should be growing in Mordor. However, this is now the secondary plot, the minor plot being in Númenor. This would be the first major time jump and surround Tar-Palantír, Tar-Míriel, Ar-Pharazôn, Amandil, Elendil, and possibly the young Isildur and Anárion. This should surround the death of Tar-Palantír, the usurpation of Ar-Pharazôn and his marriage to Tar-Míriel, ending with Ar-Pharazôn arriving at Umbar and capturing Sauron.
*Season 4*
This would primarily concern the Fall of Númenor, the sailing of Amandil to the west, and other such important issues, leading to the Faithful leaving Númenor before the sinking. 
*Season 5*
This would concern the founding of Gondor and Arnor. Here, the friendship of Elendil and Gil-Galad could be developed, still not neglecting other characters. One ought to also care about Isildur, Anárion, and their families.
*Season 6*
This would concern the Battle of Dagorlad and the War of the Last Alliance. This would also feature the death of Amdír and Oropher, along with possibly the massacre of the Entwines, culminating in death of Anárion, Gil-Galad, and Elendil, the taking of Ring, and finally the death of Isildur.


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