# Does touching Anduril really kill you?



## Asgemsuponasilverthread (Jun 26, 2020)

Hey. It's 3 a.m. here, so i will be brief. In the Two Towers, Aragorn says to Hama while handing him his weapon that anyone outside of Elendil's line who touches it shall meet a horrible fate.

However. This makes no sense. The elves most certainly had to touch it while reforging it, didn't they? Or is it possible to reforge a blade without touching it? I am not familliar with blacksmithing. 

Do you think he was just trying to scare Hama, or does touching the sword really kill you?


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## Spirit of Fire (Jun 26, 2020)

I think, just taking a stab here, that he meant he was going to kill anyone who touched it. He says that "death will come to anyone..." which just means if anyone touches it he is going to brutally murder them.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jun 26, 2020)

Possibly. Or it could be that a spell of some kind was laid on the blade. Or several other things. I view it as Tolkien being deliberately ambiguous, as he so often is, leaving the possibilities open.


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## Halasían (Jun 26, 2020)

Doesn't it read something like _"... death shall come to any man that draws Elendil's sword save Elendil's heir."_
its noted thst Aragorn himself puts his sheathed sword along with his belt by the wall himself. He does not hand it to Hama.


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## Spirit of Fire (Jun 27, 2020)

Halasían said:


> Doesn't it read something like _"... death shall come to any man that draws Elendil's sword save Elendil's heir."_
> its noted thst Aragorn himself puts his sheathed sword along with his belt by the wall himself. He does not hand it to Hama.


That is correct, but I don't think the interpretation needs to be complicated at all. I think I am witnessing in this thread a contrived explanation for what is just a very obvious threat. He didn't want anyone to touch it, and if someone were to touch it, they obviously would draw the sword. Occam's Razor, lads.


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## Elthir (Jun 27, 2020)

I think it was a warning (and the Elves had not put such magic on the re-forged blade).

(a warning possibly extending to the sketchers of Rohan).


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## Hisoka Morrow (Jun 27, 2020)

Ehh...dude, have you ever learned about cold steel combat warfare?Even slashing a guy's limb will make him handicapped at most if you save him just in time. 
In addition, I don't touching a blade will cost you to much force XD Of course it's another matter if it "touches" your limb's artery and slash it by accident XDD


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## Alcuin (Jun 27, 2020)

_“Death shall come to any man that draws Elendil's sword save Elendil's heir.”_​
This is a _malediction_. “Some bad thing is going to happen to you if you do this forbidden or prohibited or proscribed act.” It doesn’t prescribe how this bad thing will come about: Aragorn isn’t going to kill Háma if Háma immediately grasps Andúril and unsheathes it, particularly in Théoden’s house! But he’s placed a _malediction_ upon anyone who would be so bold or brazen as to unsheathe the sword to look at it or handle it. 

A malediction is closely akin to a curse, but of a subtly different nature: the connotation is that it’s not as strong as a curse. Curses are a form of malediction, but the connotation is that they’re stronger or more dire. Isildur _cursed_ those former worshippers of Sauron who refused to fight despite their oath to do so, and they became the Dead Men of Dunharrow. That’s stronger stuff than the kind of malediction Aragorn speaks in this case, but all maledictions, curses or otherwise, can have undesirable effects, and are _expected_ to have undesirable effects. That’s why Háma is so impressed with Aragorn’s statement. 

One more thing: Aragorn’s malediction extends down the generations. If after four hundred years someone draws Elendil’s sword who is _not_ Elendil’s heir, the malediction should still hold true.


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## Spirit of Fire (Jun 27, 2020)

Alcuin said:


> _“Death shall come to any man that draws Elendil's sword save Elendil's heir.”_​
> This is a _malediction_. “Some bad thing is going to happen to you if you do this forbidden or prohibited or proscribed act.” It doesn’t prescribe how this bad thing will come about: Aragorn isn’t going to kill Háma if Háma immediately grasps Andúril and unsheathes it, particularly in Théoden’s house! But he’s placed a _malediction_ upon anyone who would be so bold or brazen as to unsheathe the sword to look at it or handle it.
> 
> A malediction is closely akin to a curse, but of a subtly different nature: the connotation is that it’s not as strong as a curse. Curses are a form of malediction, but the connotation is that they’re stronger or more dire. Isildur _cursed_ those former worshippers of Sauron who refused to fight despite their oath to do so, and they became the Dead Men of Dunharrow. That’s stronger stuff than the kind of malediction Aragorn speaks in this case, but all maledictions, curses or otherwise, can have undesirable effects, and are _expected_ to have undesirable effects. That’s why Háma is so impressed with Aragorn’s statement.
> ...


Again, I think you guys are contriving an unnecessarily complicated story. Good on you, if it makes you happy. But completely unfounded.


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## CirdanLinweilin (Jun 27, 2020)

Spirit of Fire said:


> Again, I think you guys are contriving an unnecessarily complicated story. Good on you, if it makes you happy. But completely unfounded.


Maybe we enjoy it....

Don't need to be a killjoy.


😒

Cl

P.S. What is the Point then of this part, oh Sage of wisdom?


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## Halasían (Jun 28, 2020)

CirdanLinweilin said:


> Maybe we enjoy it....
> 
> Don't need to be a killjoy.
> 
> ...


Indeed. I think I prefer Gando rattling off a whole lot of sidetracks than being told that what I think of a book passage to be 'contrived'.



CirdanLinweilin said:


> P.S. What is the Point then of this part, oh Sage of wisdom?


Yes, why even mention it at all in the text?


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## Spirit of Fire (Jun 28, 2020)

CirdanLinweilin said:


> Maybe we enjoy it....
> 
> Don't need to be a killjoy.
> 
> ...



What is the point of Aragorn speaking like that to Hama? Aragorn is very protective of Anduril. The history of Middle-Earth has several examples of people who are incredibly possessive of an item. Feanor with the Silmarils, Thingol, Thorin and the Arkenstone, the One Ring, etc... It isn't anything of a stretch to believe Aragorn just simply did not want Hama or anyone else to touch his sword. Even Gimli was equally reluctant to leave his axe. So Aragorn makes an ominous threat, which impresses and scares Hama. 

Sorry if being grounded in truth is a killjoy, I do apologise for that. But it's one thing saying "it would be cool if it meant this, do we have evidence?", as opposed to "this is definitely what it meant even though it's a way more complicated and unnecessary explanation and there are simpler more reasonable ones but I like this one so that must be the way it happened".


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## Alcuin (Jun 29, 2020)

No one is arguing that Aragorn was “protective” of Andúril. I think we have some difference with you over the import of his words. 

But perhaps the best way forward is to ask you to sharpen your argument a bit. Are you suggesting that Aragorn son of Arathorn, foster-son of Elrond Half-elven, Heir of Isildur, is:
Merely voicing an empty threat against Háma?
Threatening to kill Háma if he draws Andúril from its sheath?
Saying something else entirely: we’ve missed your subtle point.
If you can, be succinct, but please do be as exact as possible: Your incisive perspective has eluded my lack of erudition.


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## Spirit of Fire (Jun 29, 2020)

Alcuin said:


> No one is arguing that Aragorn was “protective” of Andúril. I think we have some difference with you over the import of his words.
> 
> But perhaps the best way forward is to ask you to sharpen your argument a bit. Are you suggesting that Aragorn son of Arathorn, foster-son of Elrond Half-elven, Heir of Isildur, is:
> 
> ...


I thought I was being completely blunt, but if I may, I will draw this to a point. Anduril was forged by the elves from one of the greatest swords ever. There was no way Aragorn was going to let Hama get his hands on such cutting-edge technology. I'm not sure of the reasons, maybe he didn't like the look of Hama. Maybe he smelt funny. Maybe he thought Hama would sell Anduril and give Theoden a slice of the profits. One thing is sure, by his words he was going to kill Hama if he touched the sword. I hope this explanation that I have thrust forth has been succinct, and not dull. My instructional skills do need to be honed.


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## Alcuin (Jun 30, 2020)

Spirit of Fire said:


> [B]y his words [Aragorn] was going to kill Hama if he touched the sword.


I see. So your position is that, although Théoden is hostile toward Gandalf and thus towards all his companions because of Wormtongue’s bewitchment, Aragorn, who has already shown himself capable of finessing even open hostility (e.g., Boromir at the Council of Elrond, or Boromir’s constant bickering and backbiting along the Anduin), is blatantly threatening to kill Háma, captain of Théoden’s guard, in Théoden’s own house before Théoden’s very doors. Interesting. 

Well, as the years pass, if ever you change your mind about this episode and happen to recall this thread, do revisit it again with any updates.


Spirit of Fire said:


> I hope this explanation that I have thrust forth has been succinct, and not dull. My instructional skills do need to be honed.


Succinct, yes. Clear, yes. Blunt, definitely. But something among your skills surely needs honing.


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## Spirit of Fire (Jun 30, 2020)

Alcuin said:


> I see. So your position is that, although Théoden is hostile toward Gandalf and thus towards all his companions because of Wormtongue’s bewitchment, Aragorn, who has already shown himself capable of finessing even open hostility (e.g., Boromir at the Council of Elrond, or Boromir’s constant bickering and backbiting along the Anduin), is blatantly threatening to kill Háma, captain of Théoden’s guard, in Théoden’s own house before Théoden’s very doors. Interesting.
> 
> Well, as the years pass, if ever you change your mind about this episode and happen to recall this thread, do revisit it again with any updates.
> Succinct, yes. Clear, yes. Blunt, definitely. But something among your skills surely needs honing.



Correct. He takes Anduril very, very seriously. Hard to say what Tolkien's intent for putting that in was, but maybe to continue to establish Aragorn as far superior to the ordinary men of Rohan. We already had him appear so much more powerful than Eomer, and this could be another instance. You can see Hama gives him the utmost respect. Whatever the reason for it, the result if Hama would touch it is obvious.


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## Deleted member 12094 (Jun 30, 2020)

Alcuin said:


> So your position is that, although Théoden is hostile toward Gandalf and thus towards all his companions because of Wormtongue’s bewitchment, Aragorn, who has already shown himself capable of finessing even open hostility (e.g., Boromir at the Council of Elrond, or Boromir’s constant bickering and backbiting along the Anduin), is blatantly threatening to kill Háma, captain of Théoden’s guard, in Théoden’s own house before Théoden’s very doors.



Another example of Aragorn preferring to resolve conflict by diplomacy can be seen in the harsh first encounter with Eomer: a dispute quickly spiraling into an armed settlement, should he not have intervened by wisely chosen words at the right moment.


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## Ron Simpson (Jun 30, 2020)

I very much doubt that Aragorn was threatening actual violence against anyone.
He did not wish to be parted from his sword, but the circumstance required it, so as a thinking man - he thought quickly.
Since he clearly did not want another to touch it, he contrived a gloomy pronouncement that would shock and over-awe the (relatively) provincial Rohirim - thereby scaring them into compliance. Essentially, this was a well-played bluff.

(“the supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting” / quite sure that Sun Tzu was required reading in the House of Elrond)

One more thing:
-even though the bluff was well-played, it could have been better worded since death comes to ALL men sooner or later and he never mentioned the timing. 
(sorry, couldn't help myself)


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## Halasían (Jun 30, 2020)

Spirit of Fire said:


> One thing is sure, by his words he was going to kill Hama if he touched the sword.



Really? If that is the way you interpret it, that is cool. It seems a bit narrow in my opinion though. I went back and read that whole scene _again._

I think the context needs to be considered with first Legolas freely handing over his blade and bow and quiver while saying _'Keep these well, for they came from the Golden Wood and the Lady of Lothlorien gave them to me.'_ Hama looked at them in wonder and quickly put them by the wall, saying _'No man will touch them I promise you.'_

Then comes the exchange between a genuinely reluctant Aragorn and a rightfully adamant Hama where tensions rise. Gandalf tries to instill the fact a king will rule his house. Aragorn agrees but still does not concede his sword. It's when fighting is mentioned by Hama that Gimli steps in to say Aragorn won't fight all of the Rohirrim alone, and Gandalf steps in and makes peace and hands over his sword to Hama. At this point Aragorn removes his belt and sheathed sword and puts it himself by the wall with Legolas's weapons. It is at this point that Aragorn speaks saying 'Here I set it, but I command you not to touch it, nor to permit any other to lay a hand on it. In this elvish sheath dwells the Blade that was Broken and has been made again. Telchar first wrought it in the deeps of time. death shall come to any man who draws Elendil's sword save Elendil's heir.' Gimli follows suit with his axe.

I don't see it as a simple _'You touch my sword and I'll kill you.'_ threat. I see it as Aragorn not wanting to enter Theoden's house unarmed when they knew that Grima was behind Theoden 'advising' him, and likely had a suspicion that Eomer had been 'arrested' on Grima's orders. Was Aragorn prideful and protective of his sword? Yes, but he followed Gandalf's lead and removed it with a heavy warning, seeig that all save Gimli mention that they had Elven weaponry, in Aragorn's case, an elven sheath worthy of holding his sword..


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## Spirit of Fire (Jul 1, 2020)

Halasían said:


> Really? If that is the way you interpret it, that is cool. It seems a bit narrow in my opinion though. I went back and read that whole scene _again._
> 
> I think the context needs to be considered with first Legolas freely handing over his blade and bow and quiver while saying _'Keep these well, for they came from the Golden Wood and the Lady of Lothlorien gave them to me.'_ Hama looked at them in wonder and quickly put them by the wall, saying _'No man will touch them I promise you.'_
> 
> ...


I agree context is important. So two things should be noted: 1. Aragorn's earlier resolutions involving diplomacy were not related to any issues directly concerning his pride. 2. Violence was on the cusp of erupting. Gimli was reared and ready to go, and Aragorn clearly wasn't daunted; it took Gandalf to calm him down. 

So, with these in mind, the actual explanation is quite obvious. Whether or not Aragorn would have carried out his threat is another matter. In the meantime, we can look at alternative, less likely (100>0) explanations.


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## Halasían (Jul 1, 2020)

For more perspective, the thread creator was looking at this from a PJ movie standpoint:



Asgemsuponasilverthread said:


> Aragorn says to Hama _while handing him his weapon_ ...


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## JPMaximilian (Jul 2, 2020)

Spirit of Fire said:


> What is the point of Aragorn speaking like that to Hama? Aragorn is very protective of Anduril. The history of Middle-Earth has several examples of people who are incredibly possessive of an item. Feanor with the Silmarils, Thingol, Thorin and the Arkenstone, the One Ring, etc... It isn't anything of a stretch to believe Aragorn just simply did not want Hama or anyone else to touch his sword. Even Gimli was equally reluctant to leave his axe. So Aragorn makes an ominous threat, which impresses and scares Hama.
> 
> Sorry if being grounded in truth is a killjoy, I do apologise for that. But it's one thing saying "it would be cool if it meant this, do we have evidence?", as opposed to "this is definitely what it meant even though it's a way more complicated and unnecessary explanation and there are simpler more reasonable ones but I like this one so that must be the way it happened".



I like how you state Aragorn is very protective of Anduril rather than comparing him to Feanor's possessiveness of the Silmarils.
Anduril is an important heirloom that was very old and was referenced in the dream that came to Boromir and Faramir that served as proof he was Elendil's heir. The sword had been passed down from generation to generation, so it would probably hard to set it aside in a relatively unprotected place, outside after it have come so far. Aragorn would be letting himself down as well as all of the other heirs of Elendil who had come before him and successfully preserved the sword not just for themselves but so it continue to be passed on.


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## Aramarien (Jul 2, 2020)

JPMaximilian said:


> Anduril is an important heirloom that was very old and was referenced in the dream that came to Boromir and Faramir that served as proof he was Elendil's heir. The sword had been passed down from generation to generation, so it would probably hard to set it aside in a relatively unprotected place, outside after it have come so far. Aragorn would be letting himself down as well as all of the other heirs of Elendil who had come before him and successfully preserved the sword not just for themselves but so it continue to be passed on.


I agree with this. The Sword that was Broken has passed down from father to son for ages. It has finally been reforged!! Aragorn probably has slept with the broken sword by his side ever since Elrond gave it to him and told him his heritage. Not only is it the sword that cut the ring from Sauron's hand, it's one of the few things that Aragorn has from his father. 
I don't believe Aragorn's words were a direct threat, per se, that he, himself, would kill anyone who touches the sword (although he may want to)
I believe it's more of a pronouncement of the probable consequences of someone who draws the sword. Not necessarily a curse, or a prophecy. It's more than an important heirloom, it's a symbol of a possible united kingdom of Arnor and Gondor. Someone who takes the sword and tries to unsheath it is doing more than simple thievery. That person is dishonoring Numenor.


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## Halasían (Jul 3, 2020)

Aramarien said:


> The Sword that was Broken has passed down from father to son for ages. It has finally been reforged!! Aragorn probably has slept with the broken sword by his side ever since Elrond gave it to him and told him his heritage. Not only is it the sword that cut the ring from Sauron's hand, it's one of the few things that Aragorn has from his father.


Indeed it was exceptional and quite special to Aragorn.



Aramarien said:


> I don't believe Aragorn's words were a direct threat, per se, that he, himself, would kill anyone who touches the sword (although he may want to)
> I believe it's more of a pronouncement of the probable consequences of someone who draws the sword. Not necessarily a curse, or a prophecy. It's more than an important heirloom, it's a symbol of a possible united kingdom of Arnor and Gondor. Someone who takes the sword and tries to unsheath it is doing more than simple thievery. That person is dishonoring Numenor.


Yes! That is really spot on! I would add that any man drawing Elendil's sword would be proclaiming himself to be Elendil's heir, and doing that when you are not Elendil's heir is a good way to get oneself killed.

So what other choice did Aragorn have here? He could have remained outside with Hama while those who did give up their weapons went in.


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## Spirit of Fire (Jul 3, 2020)

Aramarien said:


> I agree with this. The Sword that was Broken has passed down from father to son for ages. It has finally been reforged!! Aragorn probably has slept with the broken sword by his side ever since Elrond gave it to him and told him his heritage. Not only is it the sword that cut the ring from Sauron's hand, it's one of the few things that Aragorn has from his father.
> I don't believe Aragorn's words were a direct threat, per se, that he, himself, would kill anyone who touches the sword (although he may want to)
> I believe it's more of a pronouncement of the probable consequences of someone who draws the sword. Not necessarily a curse, or a prophecy. It's more than an important heirloom, it's a symbol of a possible united kingdom of Arnor and Gondor. Someone who takes the sword and tries to unsheath it is doing more than simple thievery. That person is dishonoring Numenor.


I definitely agree, he was making such a grave threat that Hama was basically subdued by the power and majesty in his voice and aura, and also just the prospect of facing a wrathful Aragorn. Given that Hama was primed up with wonder from Legolas's weapons, the threat of death from Aragorn's hand would have surely made him obedient.


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