# Who is Arwen..?



## Bunzy (Dec 7, 2001)

I just recently saw a trailer for the film of LOTR. There was a scene with a young lady elf on a horse shouting out a terrible cheesy one-liner. This woman was Liv Tyler. 

She's supposed to be playing a charater called Arwen in the Fellowship of the Ring. My problem is I really don't remember her in the book. Also I don't remember a woman called Arwen falling in love with Aragorn. I thought it was Eowyn in The Two Towers he had a thing for? Can someone explain a little about this Arwen?


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## ReadWryt (Dec 7, 2001)

Arwen is seen briefly in Fellowship in Rivendel where she and Aragorn meet up, then the story of the love between she and Aragorn is talked about in the Appendix of Return of the King.


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## Tar-Steve (Dec 7, 2001)

Arwen is Elrond's daughter.

Throughout The LotR she is Aragorn betrothed. It sort of comes out slowly throughout the story that she is his inspiration. He must be restored to the throne before Elrond will allow them to wed. In one way, he's going through all of it to be with her. (Although he'd probably go through it anyway because it's the right thing to do.)

Except for a few lines at Rivendell and at the end of the story after the war, she has no role in the story other than this inspirational one. She's important, but essentially background, especially with the respect to matters concerning the ring. (Both the ringbearer's quest and the war.)

Hope that helped.

Others may disagree.


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## Bunzy (Dec 7, 2001)

Oh ok thanks for the info you two. I never realised Arwen was a background character in Lord of the Rings, but i never read in between the lines anyway. 

Also here's a little question to keep the thread going...Are women generally understated through out the Lord of the Rings? Galadriel is the only lady i can think of that played a good part in Fellowship of the Ring. Also the whole fellowship is made up of guys.


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## Tar-Steve (Dec 7, 2001)

Eowyn plays more than a minor role.


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## Lantarion (Dec 8, 2001)

Indeed, and in the movie it is greatly emphasized, which brings up the sexual discrimination scene. If they had left her out at all, it would have seemed like it was because PJ saw females as less heroic as males. I think..


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## Grond (Dec 9, 2001)

And, once again, Grond jumps into the middle of it. Middle-earth abounds with female characters performing heroic acts. Luthien rescues Beren and dares death and worse. Turin's mother Morwen and his sister Niniel are also both very heroic in the tale of their lives. A queen in Numenor, an elf maid in Lorien foreswearing her immortality for love, an elf princess declining the Ruling Ring so that the world will have a chance to live unhindered by evil, a golden haired girl of Rohan riding to glory on the fields of Pelennor, an old woman of Lossarnach, playing her part in nursing the injured in the houses of healing and speaking an old rhyme which foretells the return of the king. 

These are just a few examples of heroic acts of women in the works of JRRT. The problem that our female society has with these characterizations is that they were typical of a woman's role in earlier times (aka before 1960). Today, women want to be portrayed as the equal of man (and they are) but more importantly, they want to take the role of a hero for the sake of heroism. You'll notice that in most of the examples cited above, the woman undertook the heroic deed on behalf of her love for a chosen male (nothing pisses off a feminist more than this portrayal). A higher good may have also been served... but the primary motivation was on behalf of the man. That is what most feminists have a problem with. They continue to fail to understand that in the times portrayed in Tolkien's books, women were as heroic as the times and the author allowed. After all, they're Mr. Tolkien's books. If you don't like their message, read Harry Potter.

***Oh my god! Bunzy, I have just realized that this post is terribly off subject. Please accept my apologies and let's see... what was the original question??***


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## Walter (Dec 9, 2001)

Now I know why so many women drive the way they do...it's all about heroism...  

ooops - I'm off topic too *ducks and runs hiding*


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## Bunzy (Dec 9, 2001)

Apology accepted Grond. 

You're right about the image of women in the 1960's and before being that of not great importance, but still vital in their roles as motivation/inspiration for the male characters.

So if the book was written nearer to this time, would it be more likely that there would have been more female hero characters, due to all this darn feminist debating lately?


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## Aerin (Dec 9, 2001)

GRR!! Why does the subject of feminism need to be brought up all the time? Yes, Liv Tyler's part in the movie is way too big, if PJ had wanted to keep the movie true to LOTR, but he didn't. Arwen was very much a background character. She did not "guide the Fellowship with her love". She most certainly DID NOT ride to the Ford and rescue Frodo. (That was Glorfindel! As if we didn't already know that!!!) Yes, Arwen's part in the book is minor, but that does not mean that Tolkien was anti-feminist! I think Grond hits the nail on the head (pun intended!) when he says that 


> That is what most feminists have a problem with. They continue to fail to understand that in the times portrayed in Tolkien's books, women were as heroic as the times and the author allowed. After all, they're Mr. Tolkien's books.


I am female, and I want equal rights for women, but not to the point where many feminists take the issue. I don't want to go on about the issue, but I just want to say that I do not feel that LOTR was discriminatory in any way.


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## The Dark Walker (Dec 11, 2001)

Lord of the Rings, sexisim in the 1960's TDW is confused.
And i don't think it's that cheesy.
If your angry cos there ain't many women tough, book has been writen, fil filmed. NO COMPLAINING CAN CHANGE IT!!!


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## Grond (Dec 11, 2001)

No DW, complaining won't change it... but if we complain to anyone and everyone who'll listen, then there will be no doubt in anyone's mind that the movie does not portray the book and maybe encourage many to read a book of a movie they just saw and thought was great.... not realizing that the book is 100 times better. 
***There now... did you get all that??***


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## The Dark Walker (Dec 11, 2001)

I'm on my second read of LOTR + I don't care if the film don't show everything I want to see the film for the action that the book sorely misses. I'll read the book for the true story!
Now Grond, did you get that?


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## Nimawae's hope (Dec 11, 2001)

Excellent responses Aerin and Dark Walker! I myself get so sick of hearing people talk about feminists all the time! Its just STUPID! Now can we do everyone a favor, and stop bringing up this subject! I hear something about everywhere I go and I'm just sick of it! Furthermore, I...uh...well...oops!...I think I just over reacted. I'm gonna go hide now. *dives under the bed, red-faced and sheepish*


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## The Dark Walker (Dec 12, 2001)

Bunzey started it!!


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## Uminya (Dec 12, 2001)

Feminism is a very backward (and touchy) subject. I personally don't see why a female character that actually travelled WITH the Fellowship would have been an uneccesary and pointless alteration and/or choice.


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## Bunzy (Dec 12, 2001)

I only asked a question about who Arwen was. I didn't ask for a whole discussion on feminism!! 

And TDW you really need to check your grammer! I can hardly understand what you're saying most of the time!

On a lighter note... i think it would be interesting if maybe Arwen was in the fellowship, instead of Boromir maybe.


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## The Dark Walker (Dec 13, 2001)

NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!! Boromirs the best.


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## Tar-Steve (Dec 13, 2001)

Threads have a life of their own sometimes Bunzy. It's the best and (sometimes) the worst thing about webboards but either way it's the reality of it.

I wouldn't be too hard on people about their grammar. We have all ages and all levels of education here with JRRT as our common ground. And besides, a lot of the grammatical mistakes you'll read are written by people from non-English speaking sections of the world who are actually doing a remarkable job with their English.


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## The Dark Walker (Dec 13, 2001)

O.k i'm sure that refered to me. and it ain't my grammer I just think quicker than i type.


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## Bunzy (Dec 13, 2001)

Tar-Steve, thank you for your post.

About your comment about people with bad grammer, yeah i guess people who have English as a second or third langauge make grammer mistakes time to time, but TDW is british and should know how to write English properly!


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## Tar-Steve (Dec 14, 2001)

*Smile when you say that *

Let's be nice. TDW is our friend. My grammar is sometimes flawed even when I concentrate on it. But I, like TDW, often type out forum posts too quickly, also inserting words and changing tenses as I go. Lot's of times I miss things in my cleanup attempts.


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## The Dark Walker (Dec 14, 2001)

Thank you Tar-Steve.


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## Grond (Dec 14, 2001)

Im wit ya, dw and trsv, aniboeed caan amke typong mstakws adn shud be givn sum slakk in thr comunicaton skkills and sppeling.


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## Deathknell (Dec 14, 2001)

*Equality is in the eye of the beholder*

Given that this thread is headed down an impossible road, I thought I'd weigh in with a couple of opinions. I grant that it is my experience alone that bring me to these conclusions; but I believe my observations will be, if nothing else, at least reasonable ones.

First of all, I hold the belief that men and women are created (both in Tolkien and in reality) to be equally important counterparts. I do not believe that MOST women are equal to MOST men physically, but there are degrees of strength in both sexes that overlap. That being said, it isn't physical strength that measures a human being's value in the world. People who define their value by their strength are no better than the followers of Melkor. As we saw in ROTK, one well-placed sword, wielded by a very committed and dedicated woman, meant the difference between victory and defeat at the Pellenor Fields. A woman of quality, as a man of quality, does what needs to be done and does not worry about the opinions of others. 

Secondly, there is no difference in my mind between the power of a woman and the power of a man to change the world in which they live, or at least to influence and alter the course of events in their lives. Making choices is available to both sexes, and it is our choices that define us, not our battle prowess or our muscle structure or the width of our hips. A recent example in my life is when my wife (who is my Galadriel, my Arwen and my Éowyn rolled into one) bought a small gift and a card for me to give to my mom for her birthday, which I had forgotten (for the tenth year in a row). It's an extremely small example, but without her foresight and thoughtful kindness I'd have continued to fail in this area. It's a weakness of memory/character/you-name-it in me that she has gracefully bolstered with her more sensitive and careful attention to detail. While I think that many women do not receive the accolades for which they are due, I also think that the role of any worthy person is to become the best person they can be, and to attune themselves to the areas in their lives to which they can make the biggest difference. The problem is that for many, it's the accolades themselves that are most important, and this drives them to place themselves in situations that are clearly not their province for the sake of self-importance. Again...behavior of the dwellers of Mordor among us.

Lastly...I don't care if you are an average woman or an exceptional one physically, nor do I think that being a woman makes one weak. Your value lies in your power to make wise choices and in your efforts to give of yourself your best qualities to the world and to the people who surround you. The old phrase "the fairer sex" implies that women are in nearly every way an improvement over men in appearance, while "the weaker sex" only applies to most women's literal physical strength. The arguments that ensue following the utterance of any of these age-old concepts are nearly always based in ignorance. The railings of anger against the so-called "male chauvinist establishment" may be due to the fact that so many angry people only hear words and do not research meanings. I find this especially true of modern feminists (with the exception of Camille Paglia), whose mission it seems is to destroy men and elevate women to a place of power over their world. Those last are the Minions of Morgoth.

It is not wrong for human beings to desire that those who bear the responsibility of growing life within them ought not to be placed wantonly in harm's way. A race that seeks perfect equality in all areas is likely to destroy itself from withint. Tolkien captures this essential truth powerfully in all of his books...where the power of women is in an unalterable and proufound grace and beauty, separate and distinct from men's, without which the world would be unmade. From Rosie Cotton's admonitions of Sam at the end of ROTK to Galadriel's commanding presence at Lothlórien, to Éowyn's valiance on the battlefield, women in LOTR are every bit as important and valiant as any man in the story, be they regal elves, willful shieldmaidens, or simple hobbits.

I've grown tired of the vitriol and hatred shouted at men who want to "protect their women" or who see women as worthy of a greater respect, who deserve our care and protection simply because of their profound and difficult responsibility as the bearers of the race. People who demand that we acquiesce to their demands for a "perfectly equal" environment for both sexes are also servants of the Dark Lord, since their goal is to unmake a system built on union, mutual compassion, and friendship of the two sexes. It is the will of Mordor to sunder men and women from one another, thus eventually destroying our ability to live harmoniously and continue the race.

I have waxed on at length because I have thought about this a lot. I welcome your comments and thoughts on this subject.


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## Eomer Dinmention (Dec 14, 2001)

Arwen is Elrond's daughter. 

Throughout The LotR she is Aragorn betrothed. It sort of comes out slowly throughout the story that she is his inspiration. He must be restored to the throne before Elrond will allow them to wed. In one way, he's going through all of it to be with her. (Although he'd probably go through it anyway because it's the right thing to do.) 
Tar_ Steve 

Comon the only thing Aragorn went throught this so he could be with Arwen come on how about also trying to destroy Sauron and bring peace


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## Aerin (Dec 16, 2001)

Deathknell, you have hit the nail on the head! That's exactly the way I feel about the subject. Thank you for your clear-headed thinking!
Oh, BTW
Welcome to the Forum!


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## laura (Dec 21, 2001)

Deathnell, may I also thank you. You have dealt with this subject with such eloquence and in a way I'm sure I couldn't have - thanks


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## Deathknell (Dec 21, 2001)

*Thoughtful responses*

I appreciate the kind thoughts...I know not everyone will agree with me, but it's nice that some do!

I think this subject is particularly intriguing.


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## Grond (Dec 21, 2001)

Deathknell, your magnificent response on this thread has sounded the deathknell to arguments to the contrary. Touche, your ideas are well founded and well written and most importantly, make Tolkien-sense.


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## Bryheinnen (Dec 25, 2001)

*Bunzey...*

I have heard this complaint before, back in the 60's---that LOTR is a sexist book.
Tiresome balderdash of the brain-dead politically correct nazis. Other than Gandalf, Galadriel is perhaps the most powerful and well-developed character in the book. She clearly overshadows Celeborn, her husband, and any other male characters other than Gandalf and Aragorn. In a sesne, she is the heart of the myth-magic that powers the book, the personification of the elegiac theme of paradise lost that permeates and inspires much of the epic.


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## Halasían (Jul 15, 2020)

I'm only dredging this up from the deeps where Balrogs lay as I had a good crackup reading through all the 'feminism' commentary. 🤣 

Why 'feminism' is brought up instead of 'chauvinism' or 'misogyny' is anyone's guess, but it really cracked me up.

The question asked originally was a good one in the shade of the upcoming movies. 

Anyway, this is my post-dredge of the week. I promise to look for a better one next week.


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## Olorgando (Jul 15, 2020)

Halasían said:


> ...
> Anyway, this is my post-dredge of the week. I promise to look for a better one next week.


As you may have noticed, I occasionally have a compulsion towards severe trivia.
Does your necropost have anything to do with the chronological fact that the opening post of the thread was exactly 60 years after Pearl Harbor? 🤓


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## Halasían (Jul 15, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> As you may have noticed, I occasionally have a compulsion towards severe trivia.
> Does your necropost have anything to do with the chronological fact that the opening post of the thread was exactly 60 years after Pearl Harbor? 🤓


Not at all. it was quite random. I leave it to you to pay attention of such things.


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## Olorgando (Jul 15, 2020)

Halasían said:


> Not at all. it was quite random. I leave it to you to pay attention of such things.


I'm not surprised at it being random (aka a coincidence). It's the millions of nutcases who do not believe in coincidence that worry me.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jul 15, 2020)

At least we now know what Halasian's studying at Night School! 😁


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## Alcuin (Jul 15, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> I'm not surprised at it being random (aka a coincidence). It's the millions of nutcases who do not believe in coincidence that worry me.


_Once is chance, twice is coincidence, three times is a pattern._

Or so says a proverb.


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## Olorgando (Jul 15, 2020)

Alcuin said:


> _Once is chance, twice is coincidence, three times is a pattern._
> 
> Or so says a proverb.


Which is another confirmation of my suspicion that not all proverbs are sensible.
Ten times red (or any other of the nominal 50-50 choices, but don't forget the zero, or in greedy US casinos the zero *and* double zero) on a roulette wheel isn't, to the ruin of many gamblers.

Which makes me wonder: how high might Arwen have estimated Aragorn's chances of actually becoming King of the reunited Kingdoms to be? Yes, Beren and Lúthien (actually basically Lúthien alone) did succeed, but one occurrence makes an insufficient sample, as I believe a favorite proverb of statisticians to be.


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## Halasían (Jul 15, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> At least we now know what Halasian's studying at Night School! 😁


I already have a Master's Degree. 

Back on topic... I can tell you who Arwen _isn't_ ... Liv Tyler. 😁


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