# The White Council



## Tar-Palantir (Jun 12, 2002)

Saruman was head of the White Council. In the Silmarillion, in "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age", it's said that Galadriel wanted Gandalf to be head of the Council. Gandalf didn't want it anyway, but who wanted Saruman to be top gun (besides Saruman, that is)? Did he get it by default? Did the Council vote? I can see it now:

Gandalf: "Galadriel, thanks for the offer, but this rock's gotta roll."

Elrond: "It's the thought that counts."

Saruman: "Hey! What about me?"

Cirdan (ignoring Saruman): "Anyone else? Glorfindel, how about you? You have an amazing amount of forsight."

Glorfindel: "No thanks. I'm training for my part in the movie."

Elrond: "The grass isn't always greener on the other side."

Saruman (with hand raised): "Ooh! Pick me! Pick me!"

Cirdan: "Celeborn, are you game?"

Celeborn (shuffling his feet and looking at the ground): "Honey?"

Galadriel: "(hard stare)"

Celeborn: "You never let me do anything!"

Elrond: "Remember, behind every good....."

Saruman:"memememememememememe!!"

Glorfindel: "Ok, who's left? Cirdan? Galadriel?"

Cirdan: "Not me - gotta build the Last Ship, you know."

Galadriel: "So! Instead of a mighty Lord of the Council, you would have a Queen! A beautiful and all-powerful leader! All would love me and..."

Cirdan: "Nevermind...Saruman, looks like you're it."

Saruman: "Yippee! I'll hit the library and find out all I can about the Rings and the arts of the Enemy."

Elrond: "Good, but don't forget, if you play with fire - "

White Council: "SHUT UP!!"


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## Elu Thingol (Jun 12, 2002)

Well he was the first Istari on ME and he was also the head of his order.


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## Lantarion (Jun 12, 2002)

Haha, that was a great vote Tar-Palantir. 
I think Saruman was chosen as head of the Istari already in Valinor, by Manwë I suppose. It was probably because he was the most powerful in magic at the time, and seemed to be the wisest. Gandalf hadn't exactly been in the spotlight till he was sent to M-E, but Manwë knew of his potential. 
Gandalf turned down the position of Head of the White Council because he was so humble, and because he had his own personal mission to fulfill: kill Sauron, kill Sauron, kill Sauron..


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## Elu Thingol (Jun 12, 2002)

Actually Gandalf was the wisest



> Wisest of the maiar was Olorin. (The Sil.)


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## Lantarion (Jun 12, 2002)

Yes, I did say 'seemed' to be the wisest, because I can't figure out any other reason for Manwë to appoint Curunír as Head of the Istari.


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## YayGollum (Jun 12, 2002)

I'm guessing he was picked because he already knew the most about the Ring. He was over there with Manwe and all those other stinky people in paradise reading up on Sauron and the Rings of Power while Gandalf was endlessly wandering around and Radagast was talking to whatever animals they have over there. I don't know.


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## Ithrynluin (Jun 12, 2002)

Very nice Tar-palantir!!


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## My_Precious (Jun 12, 2002)

Really cool!
"mememememe"...


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## Theoden (Jun 13, 2002)

I think Saruman was chosen because of his knowledge of the rings of power. I also think he was more dignified than Tar-Palantir makes him see but I must admit, I laughed at your post. Very cute. (It also makes Saruman look like a groveling, sniveling, pathetic wrech... I like that)



-me


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## Tar-Palantir (Jun 13, 2002)

What makes me wonder is this: if Saruman had a mandate to be the head of the Council when he got off the boat, then why would Galadriel dare to offer it to Gandalf? Of course, looking at her history as it relates to Manwe's orders, she wasn't always the most obedient to Manwe, was she?


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## Mormegil (Jun 13, 2002)

I think we have to distinguish the difference between the Istari and the White Council here.
Saruman was obviously the head of the order of Istari. But the White Council was a seperate thing alltogether. The two Blue Wizards were never part of the Council. And I don't think Radagast was either, although they could have joined if they wanted to.

So the White Council only had Gandalf and Saruman as Istari. The rest were mainly Elves. So I don't think that Saruman had an automatic right to head the Council.
It seems to me that the Council was probably thought up by Elrond or Galadriel. So if Galadriel thought it up then she might have the right to say who should head it.

Saruman probably was given the position because he was the leader of the Istari, and because he seemed the most likely to combat Sauron.


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## Arda's Bane (Jun 14, 2002)

What makes me wonder is why they still call it the white council when really only Gandalf and Saruman turn up (at least towards the end of the third age). Im assuming that radagast is to busy hugging trees (mutters under his breath stupid tree hugger).


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## Tar-Palantir (Jun 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Mormegil _
> *I think we have to distinguish the difference between the Istari and the White Council here.
> Saruman was obviously the head of the order of Istari. But the White Council was a seperate thing alltogether. The two Blue Wizards were never part of the Council. And I don't think Radagast was either, although they could have joined if they wanted to.
> 
> ...



I think you're missing my original question (probably because I muddied the waters with my off-off-off-off-Broadway rendition of the origins of the White Council  ). You say that Saruman was "given" the position. By whom? Galadriel certainly didn't want him, she was pushing for Gandalf. So, who? Elrond or Cirdan? Gandalf himself? 

My point here is (given that there is probably no "right" answer, by which I mean that Tolkien never made it clear), who would have backed Saruman (using the internal logic of Middle-Earth)? Someone did - either that or the Voice of Saruman was powerful enough to sway the most powerful Eldar in ME.


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## pohuist (Jun 14, 2002)

Probably off topic but what was the composition of the White Council? I don't recall reading it anywhere (I only read Tolkien's works though)


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## Bucky (Jun 14, 2002)

Tar-Palantir:

Nice work, LOL!  
Reminds me of...........

ME!  

I think we went through something a while back on the make-up.

Elrond, Galadriel & Cirdan are definitely mentioned.

One can assume from what Glorfindel says at The Council Of Elrond, "It is clear now that even at the Council his (Saruman's) feet were already on a crooked path."
This certainly seems to be said in a first hand knowledge sort of way.
Also, he is called an "Elf lord from a house of princes" by Gandalf to Frodo.

Maybe Erestor, called cheif of the counsellors of Elrond's household (besides Glorfindel).

Probably Celeborn. Galadriel, while more 'powerful', calls him "The Lord of the Galadrim" & says he "is accounted the wisest of the Elves of Middle-Earth".

Possibly even Thrandruil too, although I doubt that as he seems like a bit of a jerk in The Hobbit. However, he IS king of a major power in the struggle against Evil, & is to whom they bring Gollum after capturing him.
BUT, thinking as I write this, he seems to be present in Northern Mirkwood when The White Council is meeting for the final time & Sauron retreats from Dol Guldur. However, as Gandalf reappears at the Battle of 5 Armies, I guess Thranduil could've left after the Dwarves escaped & come back with Gandalf.

Also, maybe Elrond's 2 sons.

So, there was probably at least 5 Elves, Elrond, Galadriel, Cirdan, Glorfindel & Celeborn, plus the 2 Wizards & maybe another 2-5 Elves who probably didn't have as much clout.

Now, Gandalf was never chosen to head the White Council & refused. 
Galadriel wanted him, but he refused. Nothing's ever said that the job was his, just that he wouldn't take it.

So, I can see a dialogue where they debate the leadership & Galadriel says "How about Gandalf?"
& Gandalf says "I wouldn't take it even if you choose (or vote for) me." & then basically Saruman gets it.
But, also remember, Saruman wasn't necessarily 2nd choice. It only says Galadriel wanted Gandalf. Note:

1. Saruman was of the same 'people of Aule' as Sauron, so more like him in skills & knowledge.

2. Gandalf says to Frodo "He is the chief of my Order & mighty among The Wise."


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## Arda's Bane (Jun 15, 2002)

I must have missed something. I never knew that elves were part of the white council i thought that it was only the istari.
Once again ive made a fool of myself


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