# Saruman's poison



## Ithrynluin (Feb 26, 2003)

From _The King of the Golden Hall_:



> 'How far back his treachery goes, who can guess?' said Gandalf. 'He was not always evil. Once I do not doubt that he was the friend of Rohan; and even when his heart grew colder, he found you useful still. But for long now he has plotted your ruin, wearing the mask of Friendship, until he was ready. In those years Wormtongue's task was easy, and all that you did was swiftly known in Isengard; for your land was open, and strangers came and went. *And ever Wormtongue's whispering was in your ears, poisoning your thought, chilling your heart, weakening your limbs, while others watched and could do nothing, for your will was in his keeping.*



What do you think this poison is?
Just a metaphore for ill advice? Why would Theoden hearken to, and fall under the influence of, an ordinary man?
Or is it real poison, some sorcery brewed by Saruman? How was it applied to Theoden then?


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## olorin the maia (Feb 26, 2003)

I think it is a metaphor for bad advice.
Grima Wormtongue was a trusted advisor to the King of Rohan for years. He was not in Saruman's employ at first, and was loyal to the throne. But such positions rarely are held without corrupting the incumbent, and Wormtongue probably had a mean streak in him. Over time, due to his own ill nature and jealousy, and maybe due to Saruman's workings, he fell under the spell of the White Wizard, who knew very well how to manipulate the poor wretch to his own designs. Rmember Gandalf's warning to the hobbits: beware of his voice! He has powers you do not guess.
And certainly, the effect of Wormtongue's whisperings didn't show up over night. Nor did his counsel always seem bad. We only see him after the damage has been done to King Theoden, and had Gandalf not arrived to save the King, Theoden might very well have fallen under Saruman's speel also.
The Grey Pilgrim saved the day!


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## redline2200 (Feb 26, 2003)

It was most certainly a metaphor; I don't think that they are referring to a real poison at all.



> And ever Wormtongue's whispering was in your ears, poisoning your thought



It is referring to his whispering as poison. As far as listening to his advice, when Grima first started to talk to Theoden, he most certainly did not apper evil. He always came across as someone who was deeply concerned for the king, and he probably gave him true advice at first to win his trust. Grima was a very manipulative man and Theoden couldn't have seen through him at the beginning of the relationship, or none of that would have happened in the first place.


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## FrankSinatra (Feb 27, 2003)

*Poison*

In this case, 'Poison' is being used as a descriptive for 'Mind-Control'. For want of a less modern term.


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## Jesse (Feb 27, 2003)

I agree with Frank here.


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 27, 2003)

Why such a drastic change of Theoden's looks in the movie then? This is of course only PJ's interpretation, but there must be something more to Theoden's "wizened" look than just mere words and whisperings! There must have been some greater evil at work here from Saruman, if not real poison then defenitely something else. I'm having a difficult time understanding how a person can change and wither so much through ill-advice?

Just wondering.


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## redline2200 (Feb 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> * This is of course only PJ's interpretation*



You answered your own question right there. He wasn't physically impared like they made him look like in the movie. I thyink he was decieved into thinking that Saruman was a close ally of his, which was like "poison" because if Gandalf had not cleared things up for him then this assumption of friendship would have turned out ill for Rohan.


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## Ithrynluin (Mar 5, 2003)

Whether PJ exaggerated Theoden's looks I don't know.

Both quotes from _The King of the Golden Hall_:



> Now the four companions went forward, past the clear wood-fire burning upon the long hearth in the midst of the hall. Then they halted. At the far end of the house, beyond the hearth and facing north towards the doors, was a dais with three steps; and in the middle of the dais was a great gilded chair. Upon it sat *a man so bent with age that he seemed almost a dwarf*; but his white hair was long and thick and fell in great braids from beneath a thin golden circle set upon his brow. In the centre upon his forehead shone a single white diamond. His beard was laid like snow upon his knees; but his eyes still burned with a bright light, glinting as he gazed at the strangers.





> Slowly the old man rose to his feet, leaning heavily upon a short black staff with a handle of white bone; and now the strangers saw that, bent though he was, he was still tall and must in youth have been high and proud indeed.



From The Appendices to LOTR:



> Theoden. He is called Theoden Ednew in the lore of Rohan, for he fell into a decline under the spells of Saruman, but was healed by Gandalf...



He fell under the "spells" of Saruman. It must have been more than ill-advice on Wormtongue's part.
I repeat my view: A man cannot be so worn out and almost immobile from words (Wormtongue's! - he is still an ordinary man). How did Saruman apply these spells or poison to Theoden? From afar? Or did Wormtongue do or give some nasty things to Theoden?


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## Mablung (Mar 5, 2003)

Well if you remember Gandalf spoke of how Saruman's words were spells in and of themselves and his words could do many things. He may have just passed this gift to Wormtongue with a bit different effect then was seen other places.


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## Dáin Ironfoot I (Mar 5, 2003)

Well where and how do you think Saruman recieved these powers? I mean Melkor was not around to turn his powers into evil, and do you think another Maia (Saurons Ring) could turn a Maia bad? Do you think Saruman already had some evil influence from his origin, I just find it hard to believe Maia can turn each other evil or lead one another down the dark side.... Just some questions to myself.


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## Ithrynluin (Mar 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mablung _
> *Well if you remember Gandalf spoke of how Saruman's words were spells in and of themselves and his words could do many things. He may have just passed this gift to Wormtongue with a bit different effect then was seen other places. *



And how exactly would Saruman go about this business of passing the gift to Wormtongue? I don't see it happening through mere words.
Did Saruman meet with Theoden at any time? Not that we know of (or am I mistaken)?

Dain, Saruman was "ensnared" by Sauron (as stated in UT).


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## Mirabella (Mar 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *Or is it real poison, some sorcery brewed by Saruman? How was it applied to Theoden then? *



Here's an interesting find in UT, "The Battles of the Fords of Isen":



> "his malady may thus have been caused by natural causes, though the Rohirrim commonly lived till near or beyond their eightieth year. *But it well may have been induced or increased by subtle poisons, administered by Grima*."



I'd say poison was a definate possibility  As to how it was administered, Grima could have easily doctored Theoden's food or drink. What I would like to know is how someone as loathsome as Grima every became Theoden's most trusted counsellor.


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## Ithrynluin (Mar 5, 2003)

Ah, thank you Mirabella for digging up that quote. 



> What I would like to know is how someone as loathsome as Grima every became Theoden's most trusted counsellor.



Perhaps his appearance (and character, I daresay) was less loathsome and corrupted when he first came into Theoden's service?


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## olorin the maia (Mar 5, 2003)

Subtle poisons, forsooth!
Poison can take many forms. And the weakening of a man's spirit and strength of will is certainly one effect of poison, whether it be a chemical mixed in food, or a spoken thought causing self-doubt and recrimination. And the combination can be deadly. It was not beyond Grima's powers to administer each!
Grima was not always evil, or loathesome. He did not become a trusted counselor by being evil. Gandalf even defended him enough to say that "Once [he] did you service after [his] fashion."
Grima became loathesome and evil, after he fell under the spell of Saruman, who had his own ideas about ruling Middle-earth. 
Dain Ironfoot, a further point: absolutely, the Ring could turn a good Maia bad. Gandalf feared to take the Ring, even were it given freely as a gift, and said so. And Saruman's corruption went back way further than his attempt to overtake Rohan.


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## Brytta (Mar 6, 2003)

> Did Saruman meet with Theoden at any time?



From _The Voice of Saruman_:



> [Saruman speaking] 'But come now,' said the soft voice. 'Two at least of you I know by name. Gandalf I know too well to have much hope that he seeks help or counsel here. But you, Théoden Lord of the Mark of Rohan are declared by your noble devices, and still more by the fair countenance of the House of Eorl. O worthy son of Thengel the Thrice-renowned! *Why have you not come before, and as a friend? Much have I desired to see you *, mightiest king of western lands, and especially in these latter years, to save you from the unwise and evil counsels that beset you! Is it yet too late? Despite the injuries that have been done to me, in which the men of Rohan, alas! have had some part, still I would save you, and deliver you from the ruin that draws nigh inevitably, if you ride upon this road which you have taken. Indeed I alone can aid you now.'



It's not air-tight, but the quote could indicate that Saruman and Théoden have never met. Certainly it is clear that they had not met recently.

And while we are talking of Rohan, does anyone know why Thengel was known as the Thrice-Renowned?


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## Lantarion (Mar 6, 2003)

Hmm, I wonder.. It isn't explained in UT.
Mirabella's quote is an interesting one (I only recently re-read that part) because it questions the depth of the metaphor for bad or evil advice.. But the powers of Saruman, or indeed of any of the Istari, are not revealed anywhere in full; so we can only presume what he is capable of. But I think he could have spoken 'through' Gríma, like Ulmo spoke through Tuor in Gondolin, and seeped his vocal prowess into Théoden's mind. But now that I consider it I find the addition of anj actual 'subtle poison' more likely.


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## Celebithil (Mar 8, 2003)

> It was most certainly a metaphor; I don't think that they are referring to a real poison at all.



I agree totally Wormtongue was just good at convincing people and used this to serve Saruman.


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## Ithrynluin (Mar 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Celebithil _
> *I agree totally Wormtongue was just good at convincing people and used this to serve Saruman. *



When making a decision, did you take my quotes (Theoden looking unnaturally old and bent) and Mirabella's quote ("But it well may have been induced or increased by subtle poisons, administered by Grima.") into consideration?


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## Celebithil (Mar 8, 2003)

To be honest no, I was lazy found a position I agreed with and then posted my reply. I've always thought it was just Wormtongues words or possibly Sarumans much like how he uses his voice to charm people but not any physical poison.


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## Ithrynluin (Mar 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Celebithil _
> *To be honest no, I was lazy found a position I agreed with and then posted my reply. I've always thought it was just Wormtongues words or possibly Sarumans much like how he uses his voice to charm people but not any physical poison. *



But it looks like the evidence allows the possibility of other options (IMHO)?


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## Celebithil (Mar 11, 2003)

In the previous post I was simply describing my chain of thought about how I though it was simply Sarumans voice. I went back and read that passage and now agree that it is quite possible that there were actual poisons administered. I still believe that there is the posibility that he is referring to poisons of the mind. I guess now i'm uncertain of what I believe.


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