# Orodeth of Nargothrond---wisdom or mistake?



## Beleg (Sep 9, 2003)

> *When it became known to Orodreth that the Mormegil was in truth the son of Húrin Thalion he gave him great honour, and Túrin became mighty among the people of Nargothrond. But he had no liking for their manner of warfare, of ambush and stealth and secret arrow, and he yearned for brave strokes and battle in the open; and his counsels weighed with the King ever the longer the more. In those days the Elves of Nargothrond forsook their secrecy and went openly to battle, and great store of weapons were made; and by the counsel of Túrin the Noldor built a mighty bridge over the Narog from the Doors of Felagund, for the swifter passage of their arms. *



*Of Turin Turambar, Silmarillion*

We know that Turin was a practiser of open warfare, and believed that they could achive more if then went for open war against the Morgothian elements. In a talk with Gwindor, the fallen prince, he tries explaining his reasoning, 



> Gwindor spoke ever against Túrin in the council of the King, saying that he had been in Angband, and knew somewhat of the might of Morgoth, and of his designs. "Petty victories will prove profitless at the last," he said; "for thus Morgoth learns where the boldest of his enemies are to be found, and gathers strength great enough to destroy them. All the might of the Elves and the Edain united sufficed only to contain him, and to gain the peace of a siege; long indeed, but only so long as Morgoth bided his time before he broke the leaguer; and never again can such a union be made. In secrecy only lies now any hope; until the Valar come."
> "The Valar!" said Túrin. "They have forsaken you, and they hold Men in scorn. What use to look westward across the endless Sea? There is but one Vala with whom we have to do, and that is Mor_goth; and if in the end we cannot overcome him, at the least we can hurt him and hinder him. For victory is victory, however small, nor is its worth only in what follows from it. But it is expedient also; for if you do nothing to halt him, all Beleriand will fall beneath his shadow before many years are passed, and then one by one he will smoke you out of your earths. And what then? A pitiable remnant will fly south and west, to cower on the shores of the Sea, caught between Morgoth and Ossë. Better then to win a time of glory, though it be shortlived; for the end will be no worse. You speak of secrecy, and say that therein lies the only hope; but could you ambush and waylay every scout and spy of Morgoth to the last and least, so that none come ever back with tidings to Angband, yet from that he would learn that you lived and guess where. And this also I say: though mortal Men have little life beside the span of the Elves, they would rather spend it in battle than fly or submit. The defiance of Húrin Thalion is a great deed; and though Morgoth slay the doer he cannot make the deed not to have been. Even the Lords of the West will honour it; and is it not written into the history of Arda, which nei_ther Morgoth nor Manwë can unwrite?"
> "You speak of high things," Gwindor answered, "and plain it is that you have lived among the Eldar. But a darkness is on you if you set Morgoth and Manwë together, or speak of the Valar as the foes of Elves or Men; for the Valar scorn nothing, and least of all the Children of Ilúvatar. Nor do you know all the hopes of the Eldar. It is a prophecy among us that one day a messenger from Middle-earth will come through the shadows to Valinor, and Manwë will hear, and Mandos relent. For that time shall we not attempt to preserve the seed of the Noldor, and of the Edain also? And Círdan dwells now in the South, and there is building of ships; but what know you of ships, or of the Sea? You think of yourself and of your own glory, and bid us each do likewise; but we must think of others beside ourselves, for not all can fight and fall, and those we must keep from war and ruin while we can."
> "Then send them to your ships, while there is yet time," said Túrin.
> ...



*Appendix Unfinished Tales*
*Question One:* Do you agree with Turin and his line of reasoning that open warfare and valiant attacks, at that time, were the best course of action or are you infavour of Gwindor whose motto is to basically lie low and await for the Ainur's help?


*Question Two:* Like Gwindor do you believe that the only hope of the allies lied in 'secrecy'? There is room for speculation here, so do you think that *If* Nargothrond hadn't went into attacking foray's how long would it have stood firm? Or how would Morgoth have been able to trace and destroy it? Do you believe this is an instance where the curse of Morgoth mixes with the Prophecy of Namo and produces disastrous effects?


I have a small problem with Orodeth's attitude here; sure Turin was a mighty lord and what he argued can be held as party true, and he held also, a lot of infulence among the public, but IMO Orodeth shouldn't have allowed the open foray's; he shouldn't have sealed all of his people's fate for small victories. He wasn't prudent enough, I am sure others will disagree, but to me, It seems that he was not fit to be a stealth time King and may I be bold enough to presume that he rather favoured war times? 
Poor Gwindor, the voice of prudence and sense wasn't heard; dfo you thinK Gwindor's bitterness at being overshadowed [In a sense] by Turin, just? 
If it was so clear that if Nargothrondians left their living of stealth, sooner or later they would be found out and anhiliated, why risk the whole population for the sake of small victories, which might prove to be off little consequences? 
I detect wisdom in Gwindor's reasoning. Do you think he gained this wisdom during his long sojourn in the dungeons of Morgoth and the wilds of Beleriand? Because before the Nirnaeth he seemed a pretty heedless captain. 



> These words seemed dark to Orodreth, and he turned as he ever did to Túrin for counsel.


 *Appendix Unfinished Tales* 

Now, this a reference to the case of Gelmir and Arminas. It was a very grave matter and one that was mostly related to the Elves, since no man save Tuor ever had contact with the Lord Ulmo. But Orodeth, instead of seeking council with more experience and perhaps wise councelers of his household asks Turin's opinion. 
Was that a good move given the cirumstances? 
It seems that Orodeth preserved a liking for Turin, so it is just possible that he might have noted Finduilas' interest in Turin and was infavour of her marrying him? [If that was possible].


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## Niniel (Sep 9, 2003)

I don't know the answer to all your questions, but as for Túrin advising Orodreth, I don't think he was right. But that was part of the curse that Morgoth set on Túrin: 'Whenever they speak, their words shall bring ill counsel.' So it could be said that whatever Túrin was going to say, it would have been best if Orodreth hadn't listened, but of course he didn't know that and at the moment Túrin's advice seemed reasonable.


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## Beleg (Sep 9, 2003)

> So it could be said that whatever Túrin was going to say, it would have been best if Orodreth hadn't listened, but of course he didn't know that and at the moment Túrin's advice seemed reasonable.



Here I dont agree with you. Orodeth, I believe had a perfectly fit mind and could evaluate the condition himself aptly. He should have known that open warfare would sooner or later lead to destruction; and thence he should have practised prudence, but he didn't, and here I blame Orodeth. 
Besides, there also was Gwindor, the fallen angel who nevertheless proved to a wise head and gave wise councils but he was disregarded? Why was that? Was it the same streak that had made the Noldor and Sindar shun all the escaped thralls? Or was it a diminishment of his splendour? And then there was the council of Gelmir and Arminas, and Cirdan's message and well as Ulmo's warning.


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## Bucky (Sep 9, 2003)

I think Orodreth was somewhat easily led, or less firm & strong than the average Son Of Finwe.
I mean, look what happened with Celegorm & Curufin. They were basically running the show in Nargothrond while they were there.....

Now, since Ulmo sent a clear message that Turin's plan was wrong, I guess it was, uh, wrong.

But, recall also what Turin said in reply to the stealth plan:

"Even if you were to destroy every scout that Morgoth were to send out, by that very act he would guess where you lie."

So, it was damned if you do, damned if you don't....

The difference would've been the same as Gondolin I think, if Ulmo had had his way - and let us not forget that he helped in setting up these 2 secret kingdoms. If Ulmo's councils had been adhered to, I think the Elves in each realm would've abandoned their city & gone to Balar or the Mouth of Sirion & lived.


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## Lord Gil-galad (Sep 9, 2003)

I thought Orodreth was a son of Finarfin, but again, the sons of Finarfin are supposed to be wise, they are supposed to be able to tell when something like Turins plan is bound to eventually run Nargothrond into the ground...(or father then it already is heh. horrible dry humor.. ) Then if I'm nopt mistaken, Nargothrond, as soon as it came into open warefare helped the res of the Noldor in not being completely slaughtered at one of the many battles against Morgoth.... war fare then the Noldor would be basicly gone.... But if they had, they could have preserved Nargothrond and maybe in the long run they could have done more to defeat Morgoth. But you never know.... and we will never know..

Q #1, It really depends.... If Nargothrond preserved and Gondolin still around, would Earendil still have gone for the Valar's help? But maybe int he long run the destruction of the Noldor was the only way to make Earendil travel as a last resort to get Valinors help. Becuase elves alone were no match for Morgoth. But if you mean if I was there at the time, and had no idea who Earendil was, I would have chose open warefare, and would gone with Turin, because in a sense of stright foreward thinking it is the best chance. But if you are intellegent like Gwindor, and can see many moves ahead(which I am not) you'd choose to stay I hiding.... Though its hard to tell.....

Q #2, Gwindor was mainly concerned in preserving Nargothrond until the Valar came to help, which he though would eventually happen, Turins idea was to destroy Morgoth in head on battle, Gwindor saw around that... But I not think any of Nargothronds 'secrecy' attack could have swayed the direction of the war.... Morgoth would still remained basicly unouched. though as I said, it hard to tell weather the world would go peaceful again if Nargothrond stayed in hiding.... gah.. that confusing.


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