# The choice of the Half-Elven... and no choice at all



## Elendil3119 (Feb 28, 2003)

*The Half-Elven*

Elrond and Elros were given the choice b/w being an elf or a man, but were all the other half-elven in ME? What about the children of Aragorn and Arwen?


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## Lantarion (Feb 28, 2003)

As far as I understand it, no. Elrond and Elros were the children of Eärendil, who saved the world (to put it very simply and bluntly), and they were given a unique gift. 
So I think it was just his children who got that choice, but I'm not sure.


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## DurinLongBeard (Feb 28, 2003)

Would Elrond have the blood of man coursing through him also then? Or would he be wholly elven? I understand that he lives forever and yada yada yada but I do not understand if he would share the advantages or disadvantages of each. I am guessing he was a pure elf.


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## Niniel (Feb 28, 2003)

All Elrond's children had the choice to be counted as Elves or Men, so Arwen, Elladan and Elrohir could all choose. But I don't think it says what Elladan and Elrohir chose. Arwen and Aragorn's children had no choice, they were all Men.


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## Gil-Galad (Feb 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Niniel _
> * Arwen and Aragorn's children had no choice, they were all Men. *


They were all men cause their mother had refused the immortal life of her kin.Her children did not have the choice Elrond and Elros had had,because their mother lived as a mortal woman.Just like Elros' children Arwen's didn't have a choice.


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## LadyDernhelm (Feb 28, 2003)

It's really interesting to me that the children of those who chose to be of Elven-kind have a choice but not those of Men. It kind of proves the point that Elves are the higher race. I.E. - Arwen's and Elros's respective children had no choice, but Elrond's did. Does this make any sense? It makes sense to me. . .*looks confused*


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## Confusticated (Mar 1, 2003)

I wonder what kind of change took place when one decided to belong to one race or the other.
I do not expect that the actual body would change, but I wonder about the spirit/fea. If that changes it stands to reason that the Half-elevn have a spirit that is unlike that of men and elves. Where then would this spirit go if the Half-elf was slain before he/she made a choice. What about Dior? He says that he is of both kins, even though Luthien was a mortal when she had him. What about Dior's children who never got to choose? 

I woud speculate that the change that takes place when one chooses a race is the relation her/his spirit has with Arda and his/her own body.


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## Mirabella (Mar 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Nóm _
> *Where then would this spirit go if the Half-elf was slain before he/she made a choice. What about Dior? He says that he is of both kins, even though Luthien was a mortal when she had him. What about Dior's children who never got to choose?/B]*


* 

Interesting point, Nom. Perhaps Dior, Elured and Elurin were granted a special dispensation and allowed to make their choice in the halls of Mandos.

What about Earendil? If not for Elwing, he would have chosen to belong to the race of Men. There must be some fundamental change to the fea once that choice is made. Else Earendil would be doomed to go through the ages possibly regretting his choice.*


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## LadyDernhelm (Mar 1, 2003)

Wouldn't that be horrible? Making the choice too soon, and then realizing shortly after that it was _wrong_??? And living your life out under the shadow of a wrong choice?


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## sepdet (Apr 23, 2003)

I've got a knotty problem.

Before Earendil, there was no precedent set for what to do about mortal/elf pairings. Idril and Tuor went to Valinor. Earendil did also, but the Valar were apparently no longer comfortable with Tuor's option. So they decided heirs of Earendil must make a choice to stay or to go. In addition, the children of Elrond were required to make the choice when he left Middle-Earth (am I remembering that right)?

I've always found it startling that Elladan and Elrohir stayed, but we know so little about them. The only thing we know is that they were very, very committed to whumping orcs. There were still orcs left to whump even after Sauron was overthrown, so perhaps they couldn't bear to leave off whumping. We never see Elrond angsting about them. Then again, Arwen's story is mostly relegated to the Appendix anyway, and her brothers barely come into the hobbit's-eye-view of the saga.

Elwing seems not to have been asked for her choice, since it's fairly clear what hers would be: stay with Earendil. Dior poses an odd problem. He's the only Peredhel I can think of who was killed, instead of making a choice. I suppose he's like Elros' children: since his mother hand chosen mortality, he was mortal. (Lúthien's another odd case, since she wasn't Peredhel). 

Arwen made her choice and could not change it, in spite of Elessar's urging on his deathbed. I can't decide whether she tried to change her mind, in seeking out Celeborn, or whether she was only looking for wisdom and comfort from her grandfather. But she didn't go looking for her brothers. Nor did she go to Legolas when he was building his ship, but perhaps she didn't realize he was building one.

But beyond the three great mortal/elf pairings of high blood, there were actually others which were too insignificant to be noticed. One of Imrahil's ancestors was Peredhel, son of a Silvan elf. And that was after the days of Earendil. Upbringing may have made a difference there, since the child was raised among humans.

But in the abstract, my question is this: Suppose there were a Silvan/mortal pairing. Suppose they had children. Suppose one of those children was killed.

Would that child be accounted Man or Elf?


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## Beleg (Apr 23, 2003)

Hmm, Nice Question, but basically i think in that scenario If the Father is An Man, the child might die as a man or viceversa, plus it may depend upon how the Perdihel lived in his life. He might have been offered choices before, whether to become a man or elf. Presumbly since Nimrodel's maid was a Woman Elf (any word for them, it seems so heavy writing woman elf  ) and her ancestors were men, The tributary Princes of Dol-Armoth, so based on that incident we can say that it would depend upon the father, which race he is, or in more nobler and important cases the choice would be offered. its is a possibility. But i stand by the point that the Peridhel would be asked which life they want to choose from, Men or Elves and any further coallboration will depend upon their choice.


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## Tar-Elenion (Apr 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by sepdet _
> I've always found it startling that Elladan and Elrohir stayed, but we know so little about them.


Letter 153:
"Elrond passes Over Sea. The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while."


> Elwing seems not to have been asked for her choice, since it's fairly clear what hers would be: stay with Earendil.


The Simarillion:
"'And this is my [Manwe] decree concerning them: to Eärendil and to Elwing, and to their sons, shall be given leave each to choose freely to which kindred their fates shall be joined, and under which kindred they shall be judged.'"
"Then Eärendil said to Elwing: 'Choose thou, for now I am weary of the world.' And Elwing chose to be judged among the Firstborn Children of Ilúvatar, because of Lúthien; and for her sake Eärendil chose alike...".


> Dior poses an odd problem. He's the only Peredhel I can think of who was killed, instead of making a choice. I suppose he's like Elros' children: since his mother hand chosen mortality, he was mortal. (Lúthien's another odd case, since she wasn't Peredhel).


Elured and Elurin were also Peredhil, they died before making a choice.


> But in the abstract, my question is this: Suppose there were a Silvan/mortal pairing. Suppose they had children. Suppose one of those children was killed.
> Would that child be accounted Man or Elf?


HoME 5:
Manwe speaking:
"Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me."


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## Gothmog (Apr 23, 2003)

Most of the points of this question Tar-Elenion has well covered and can therefore be set aside as answered.

However, in the case of Tuor we have only Hearsay evidence that he was indeed accepted into Valinor and "Counted amoung the First Born. We know for sure only that he left to Seek that land. *But if he was accepted then this could simply be a case of Eru "Balancing the Books". Luthien the Elf became Mortal and "Died Indeed". Tuor could have been The One Mortal made Immortal to take her place*.

Just a thought on the matter.


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## Tar-Elenion (Apr 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Gothmog _
> However, in the case of Tuor we have only Hearsay evidence that he was indeed accepted into Valinor and "Counted amoung the First Born. We know for sure only that he left to Seek that land.


Letter 153:
"Túor weds Idril the daughter of Turgon King of Gondolin; and 'it is supposed' (not stated) that he as an unique exception receives the Elvish limited 'immortality': an exception either way."
This notes the story internal "supposition" (not "fact") of Túor's 'immortality'.
However later in the Letter JRRT essentially confirms it as a fact:
"...it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case: the cases of Lúthien (and Túor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God."
Note that JRRT states that Túor's 'fundamental kind' was changed.


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## Gothmog (Apr 23, 2003)

Thank you for bringing that letter to my attention. I am not well read on the Letters as yet.  What you have provided does indeed give more evidence to Tuor being accounted one of the Quendi. It also does much to support my view that if Tuor was counted with the First Born then it was likely to be Eru "Balancing the Books" as the Valar could not either alone or all together alter the fate of even one of the Children of Eru.


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## Tar-Elenion (Apr 23, 2003)

You are welcome.
I have often used the 'balancing' analogy myself.


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## Anubis (Apr 27, 2003)

Half Elves have the choice. They can choose to sail to Valinor an live forever, or they can just stay in ME, and die.


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## Gothmog (Apr 27, 2003)

Not all of the Half-Elven were given this choice.


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## Lantarion (Apr 28, 2003)

Only the descendants of Eärendil, wasn't it?
...according to the aforementioned quote from Manwë in HoMe 5, that is.


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## Confusticated (Apr 28, 2003)

> Only the descendants of Eärendil, wasn't it?
> ...according to the aforementioned quote from Manwë in HoMe 5, that is.


I think it just shows that by default anyone with mortal blood is mortal, but may be granted otherwise by Manwe. We know this was so with Earendil, Elwing and those descendants, but I see nothing that rules out this happening with elves we do not hear about.
Is it said somewhere that only these we hear about had the choice, or is the number of all elf and human unions in the history of Arda written down somewhere?

If no, then I say a person can not rightly say that it was only Earendil and descentants, only that Earendil and descendants are the only cases that we know of.

I would assume they were the only though, since all the ones we know about can be justified in that the people involved were major players in the battle against Morgoth, and Sauron. Something as important as Manwe granting a doom, is a thing I view would only be done for big causes, for the good of all, not just one person.


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## Gothmog (Apr 28, 2003)

It may well be true that there are Half-Elven that we have not been told about who were given the choice. However, even if this is true it does not change my statement that not all Peredhil were given this choice. It could only be those still alive after Eärendil's errend to Valinor who would have this offer. Before Eärendil spoke with the Valar Manwe had not been given this power of Doom for the Peredhil.


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## Confusticated (Apr 28, 2003)

> However, even if this is true it does not change my statement that not all Peredhil were given this choice.


I agree.

I was only addressing Lantarion's statement and reference to the quote posted by Tar-Elenion from HoMe 5.


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## Gothmog (Apr 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Nóm _
> *I was only addressing Lantarion's statement and reference to the quote posted by Tar-Elenion from HoMe 5. *


 I could see that but I felt that it needed to be cleared up in relation to the time line showing from when the choice could be offered.


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