# Ulmo - The Betrayal of Gondolin



## Ancalagon (Oct 6, 2002)

When one considers the Doom of Mandos upon The Noldor, it seems that fate was ever to play a part in seeking their destruction. One wonders then if the Valar were subject to this fate and bound indirectly to it?

I would question then Ulmo's responsibility in leading to the downfall of Gondolin by sending Tuor as his messenger. It would seem that Ulmo himself could be held accountable for playing into the hands of Mandos' doom upon the Noldor, by his actions.



> And Tuor remained in Gondolin, for its bliss and its beauty and the wisdom of its people held him enthralled; and he became mighty in stature and in mind, and learned deeply of the lore of the exiled Elves. Then the heart of Idril was turned to him, and his to her; and Maeglin's secret hatred grew ever greater, for he desired above all things to possess her, the only heir of the King of Gondolin. But so high did Tuor stand in the favour of the King that when he had dwelt there for seven years Turgon did not refuse him even the hand of his daughter; for though he would not heed the bidding of Ulmo, he perceived that the fate of the Noldor was wound with the one whom Ulmo had sent; and he did not forget the words that Huor spoke to him before the host of Gondolin departed from the Battle of Unnumbered Tears.



Did Ulmo's actions lead to the downfall of Gondolin and was this part of the Doom of Mandos?


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## Anamatar IV (Oct 6, 2002)

naw. It was turgons fault for not listening to a GOD. Im serious.


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## Maedhros (Oct 6, 2002)

> I would question then Ulmo's responsibility in leading to the downfall of Gondolin by sending Tuor as his messenger. It would seem that Ulmo himself could be held accountable for playing into the hands of Mandos' doom upon the Noldor, by his actions.


Hmmmm. I would say that the Downfall of Gondolin was inevitable. Ulmo knowing this, send Tuor to Gondolin to help the Noldor get out and plead with the Valar their case so that help should come from the West.
From BOLT 2: The Fall of Gondolin


> Then spake Tuor, and Ulmo set power in his heart and majesty in his voice. "Behold, 0 father of the City of Stone, I am bidden by him who maketh deep music in the Abyss, and who knoweth the mind of Elves and Men, to say unto thee that the days of Release draw nigh. There have come to the ears of Ulmo whispers of your dwelling and your hill of vigilance against the evil of Melko, and he is glad: but his heart is wroth and the hearts of the Valar are angered who sit in the mountains of Valinor and look upon the world from the peak of Taniquetil, seeing the sorrow of the thraldom of the Noldoli and the wanderings of Men; for Melko ringeth them in the Land of Shadows beyond hills of iron. Therefore have I been brought by a secret way to bid you number your hosts and prepare for battle, for the time is ripe."


It was actually the pride of the Noldor (Turgon) that finally destroyed the inhabitants of Gondolin.


> But Turgon said that he was king of Gondolin and no will should force him against his counsel to emperil the dear labour of long ages gone; but Tuor said, for thus was he bidden by Ulmo who had feared the reluctance of Turgon: "Then am I bidden to say that men of the Gondothlim repair swiftly and secretly down the river Sirion to the sea, and there build them boats and go seek back to Valinor: lo! the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, yet still dwell there the Elves on the hill of Kôr and the Gods sit in Valinor, though their mirth is minished for sorrow and fear of Melko, and they hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic that no evil come to its shores. Yet still might thy messengers win there and turn their hearts that they rise in wrath and smite Melko, and destroy the Hells of Iron that he has wrought beneath the Mountains of Darkness."


Kôr > Tirion. Gondothlim > Gondolin.
It was Turgon who didn't take the advice of Ulmo and in that he doomed the Noldor of Gondolin.


> Did Ulmo's actions lead to the downfall of Gondolin and was this part of the Doom of Mandos?


You could say that Ulmo is responsible for the downfall of Gondolin because he gave Turgon the idea to make the city. If you believe in fate then the answer is yes.


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## Confusticated (Oct 7, 2002)

Of course I can not prove that the curse did not cause Ulmo to send Tuor to Gondolin, but because Ulmo has such a history of helping elves and men, I find it easier to believe that he took this upon himself and acted without influence by the curse.

I think that the curse of Mandos was powerful enough to turn the helpful actions of the Vala against the elves.
I do not think that the curse caused Ulmo's actions but rather it twisted things afterwards. Once Tuor was in Gondolin the curse took it's chance and went to work. The destruction of Gondolin would have happend without Ulmo or Tuor. It would have found another way. I just think this because no matter what happend the curse never failed to do it's job.

This is related to a thread that I have been thinking about starting. I will go ahead and start it later on or tomorrow.


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## Turgon (Oct 7, 2002)

Was Ulmo responsible for the downfall of Gondolin? No, I don't believe so. The end Ulmo was working toward, knowingly or unknowingly was the Doom of Morgoth, not of the Noldor. This Morgoth himself percieved.



> And most of all his kin Morgoth feared Turgon; for of old in Valinor his eye had lighted upon him, and whenever he drew near a shadow had fallen on his spirit, foreboding that in some time that yet lay hidden, from Turgon ruin should come to him.



All the kingdoms of the Noldor were fated to fall, after the Nirnaeth, Morgoth was free to scour the whole of Beleriand in search of the Hidden City, and with nobody to hinder him it was only a matter of time before he did so. Morgoth could not have been too far from the mark when he captured Maeglin just outside the leaguer of Gondolin. Húrin had already given him the rough location of Gondolin some years before Tuor ever got there. It was just a matter of time.

Still I can't find it in myself to blame Turgon for not abandoning his City. And let us not presume that his people would have been so eager to leave either. Does anybody really believe the Gondolindrim would have scuttled off without a fight? I can't see it.


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## gate7ole (Oct 7, 2002)

Most are said very well by the others. I would only like to add that the Valar too, are bound to Earth until the Final Battle and the remake or Arda. It was the condition of Illuvatar. So, I assume that they are bound to its destiny, as much as the elves do. Humans are the only race we know that they are not confined in Arda.
Thus, I find it possible that Ulmo played his part in the fall of Gondolin which Mandos himself had prophecied. It is very interesting that a Vala, although knowing the curse and its inevitability, he tried to change the course of history and save Gondolin. It may be that he perceived that this curse could be lifted by the acts of a Man (Tuor). But in the end his actions only gave to the destiny a way to unfold.


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## Gothmog (Oct 7, 2002)

Did Ulmo's actions lead to the downfall of Gondolin and was this part of the Doom of Mandos?

Quite simply No.

From the Silmarillion: Chapter 16:Of Maeglin


> Yet to none were his yes more often drawn than to Idril the King's daughter, who sat beside him; for she was golden as the Vanyar, her mother's kindred, and she seemed to him as the son from which all the King's hall drew its light


 And:


> Then they cast Eöl over the Caragdûr, and so he ended, and to all in Gondolin it seemed just; but Idril was troubled, and from that day she mistrusted her kinsman.


 Also


> Thus all seemed well with the fortunes of Maeglin, who had risen to be mighty among the princes of the Noldor, and greatest save one in the most renowned of their realms. Yet he did not reveal his heart; and though not all things went as he would he endured it in silence, hiding his mind so that few could read it, unless it were Idril Celebrindal. For from his first days in Gondolin he had borne a grief, ever worsening, that robbed him of all joy: he loved the beauty of Idril and desired her, without hope, the Eldar wedded not with kin so near, nor ever before had any desired to do so. And however that might be, Idril loved Maeglin not at all; and knowing his thought of her she loved him the less. For it seemed to her a thing strange and crooked in him, as indeed the Eldar ever since have deemed it: an evil fruit of the Kinslaying, whereby the shadow of the curse of Mandos fell upon the last hope of the Noldor. But as the years passed still Maeglin watched Idril, and waited, and his love turned to darkness in his heart. And he sought the more to have his will in other matters, shirking no toil or burden, if he might thereby have power.
> Thus it was in Gondolin; and amid all the bliss of that realm, while its glory lasted, a dark seed of evil was sown.


So it was not Ulmo's actions that led to the downfall of Gondolin but Maeglin's. The seed of its downfall was planted when Maeglin entered and was allowed to live there. The only thing that Ulmo's sending of Tuor could have done is:
a) Give a chance for Earendil to be born and allow Defeat to be turned to Victory.
b) Trigger what was going to happen at a time better suited to this occuring.

Had Tuor not gone to Gondolin the Darkness in the heart of Maeglin would sooner or later have resulted in the same thing but without Tuor there would not have been Earendil the Blessed, there would have been no Embassy to Aman on behalf of both Elves and Men and the War of Wrath would then not have taken place.

So Ulmo's actions did not cause the Downfall of Gondolin but of Angband!!!


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## gate7ole (Oct 7, 2002)

> Did Ulmo's actions lead to the downfall of Gondolin and was this part of the Doom of Mandos?
> Quite simply No.


So you say that Ulmo had no participation at all in the prophechy of Mandos. But didn’t he know it? Of course he did. He knew that Gondolin would fall. So, why did he put words in Tuor’s mouth to convince Turgon to abandon Gondolin? He was trying to protect him from the destruction and perish. Of course Mandos’ prophechy was too strong, even for Ulmo. The sending of Tuor benefited the Good, in a different way and Ulmo probably knew that too. It is true that Maeglin’s betrayal would happen one way or another. But it happened with the arrival of Tuor and this cannot be neglected. Thus we cannot erase Ulmo’s participation in the inevitable prophechy of Mandos. This means not that he is to blame of course. After all it was only his good will to help the elves.


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## Gothmog (Oct 7, 2002)

> So you say that Ulmo had no participation at all in the prophechy of Mandos.


 Where does it say that he did?


> But didn’t he know it? Of course he did. He knew that Gondolin would fall. So, why did he put words in Tuor’s mouth to convince Turgon to abandon Gondolin? He was trying to protect him from the destruction and perish.


 So you agree that Ulmo was trying to save as many from the inevitable destruction then.


> Of course Mandos’ prophechy was too strong, even for Ulmo. The sending of Tuor benefited the Good, in a different way and Ulmo probably knew that too.


 Which is what I was saying.


> It is true that Maeglin’s betrayal would happen one way or another. But it happened with the arrival of Tuor and this cannot be neglected.


 Which means that the arrival of Tuor only caused it to happen at that particular time. Not that the actions of Ulmo in sending him Lead to the fall.


> Thus we cannot erase Ulmo’s participation in the inevitable prophechy of Mandos. This means not that he is to blame of course.


 Therefore his actions did not lead to the downfall of Gondolin. only to the meeting of Idril and Tuor and the birth of Earendil. then to the downfall of Angband.

The point is that Ulmo's actions were because of the downfall of Gondolin, Not the Downfall of Gondolin was because of the actions of Ulmo.


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## Ancalagon (Oct 7, 2002)

> And Ulmo warned Turgon that he also lay under the Doom of Mandos, which Ulmo had no power to remove. 'Thus it may come to pass,' he said, 'that the curse of the Noldor shall find thee too ere the end, and treason awake within thy walls. Then they shall be in peril of fire. But if this peril draweth nigh indeed, then even from Nevrast one shall come to warn thee, and from him beyond ruin and fire hope shall be born for Elves and Men.


If Ulmo knew this even prior to the construction of Gondolin, surely he knew then of the nature of its downfall! However, Ulmo was alone of the Valar to attempt to aid the Noldor (especially Turgon) from the wrath of Morgoth, aswell as The Doom of Mandos.


> . Therefore, though in the days of this darkness I seem to oppose the will of my brethren, the Lords of the West, that is my part among them, to which I was appointed ere the making of the World. Yet Doom is strong, and the shadow of the Enemy lengthens; and I am diminished, until in Middle-earth I am become now no more than a secret whisper.


 _Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin_ 
There is no doubting Ulmo was caught in the Doom of Mandos, yet I think he strove against it;


> And as Ulmo said these things the mutter of the storm rose to a great cry, and the wind mounted, and the sky grew black; and the mantle of the Lord of Waters streamed out like a flying cloud. "Go now," said Ulmo, "lest the Sea devour thee! For Ossë obeys the will of Mandos, and he is wroth, being a servant of the Doom."



For my part; no I don't think he was responsible for the downfall of Gondolin, yet I beleive his actions hastened it. There is no question of his role in fulfiling the Doom of Mandos, which is probably why he alone of the Valar was allowed to continue his pursuit in aiding Turgon.


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## Maedhros (Oct 20, 2002)

> If Ulmo knew this even prior to the construction of Gondolin, surely he knew then of the nature of its downfall! However, Ulmo was alone of the Valar to attempt to aid the Noldor (especially Turgon) from the wrath of Morgoth, aswell as The Doom of Mandos.


Yes.


> There is no doubting Ulmo was caught in the Doom of Mandos, yet I think he strove against it


Ulmo was caught in the Doom of Mandos, How? He was a Vala, he was trying to help the Noldor as was his role before time, by what way he was trapped in the Doom of the Námo?


> For my part; no I don't think he was responsible for the downfall of Gondolin, yet I beleive his actions hastened it.


How did he hastened it? Without Ulmo, we have no Gondolin. Did Ulmo had anything to do with the betrayal of Maeglin of Gondolin? No. How did he do it then?


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## Khamul (Oct 26, 2002)

> Did Ulmo had anything to do with the betrayal of Maeglin of Gondolin? No



He sent Tuor, and the bitterness in the heart of Maeglin came to a peak with Tuor's relationship with the lady he loved more than anything, Idril. Without Tuor, I feel that this would have been post-poned, and Ulmo caused the doom of Mandos to quicken it's course.

But, to be honest, where could they possibly go? To Valinor? Turgon had already sent messengers, and few had returned, none reaching the Blessed Land. To Angband? It is common sense that it is safer to fight from a fortification than to be attacking the fortification. There was no better place that they could be than Gondolin, for there was no reason to leave.


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## Lhunithiliel (Oct 29, 2002)

Well, I personally think that it was the curse of Mandos that haunted Turgon and Gondolin, not Ulmo. From what I have read, Ulmo did everything possible to warn Turgon of the disaster.
It all started with the first dream Ulmo sent to Turgon, warning him about the "dark" years to come in Belleriand and that he (T) still can save himself and his people.


> and as they journeyed night came upon them beyond the Meres of Twilight beside the waters of Sirion, and they slept upon his banks beneath the summer stars. But Ulmo coming up the river laid a deep sleep upon them and heavy dreams; and the trouble of the dreams remained after they awoke, but neither said aught to the other, for their memory was not clear, and each believed that Ulmo had sent a message to him alone.


When the time had come it was again with Ulmo's help that Turgon found the hidden valey:


> It has been told how by the guidance of Ulmo Turgon of Nevrast discovered the hidden vale of Tumladen...


But as the years of disaster were approaching, it was AGAIN Ulmo who advised Turgon of how to escape :


> And in the next year Ulmo himself appeared to him, and bade him go forth again alone into the Vale of Sirion; and Turgon went forth, and by the guidance of Ulmo he discovered the hidden vale of Tumladen in the Encircling Mountains, in the midst of which there was a hill of stone.


It was Ulmo who guided every step of Turgon. He (Ulmo) seemed to have thought of every detail, every danger that might fall upon Turgon and his people. 


> ...and there Ulmo came to him once again, and spoke with him. And he said: 'Now thou shalt go at last to Gondolin, Turgon; and I will maintain my power in the Vale of Sirion, and in all the waters therein, so that none shall mark thy going, nor shall any find there the hidden entrance against thy will. Longest of all the realms of the Eldalië shall Gondolin stand against Melkor. *But love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart*; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West and cometh from the Sea.'


AND


> And *Ulmo warned Turgon that he also lay under the Doom of Mandos, which Ulmo had no power to remove.* 'Thus it may come to pass,' he said, 'that *the curse of the Noldor shall find thee too ere the end, and treason awake within thy walls.* Then they shall be in peril of fire. But if this peril draweth nigh indeed, then even from Nevrast one shall come to warn thee, and from him beyond ruin and fire hope shall be born for Elves and Men. Leave therefore in this house arms and a sword, that in years to come he may find them, and thus shalt thou know him, and not be deceived.' And Ulmo declared to Turgon of what kind and stature should be the helm and mail and sword that he left behind.


So, it was ALL well known long before it had started.......
Therefore two issues come right away:
*1/* Ulmo could not save the Noldor from the curse of Mandos. But at least he tried to give them a longer period of happy existance before the inevitable happens. He, IMHO, is NOT to be blamed for the Fall of Gondolin. I however wonder: *What was Ulmo's purpose to delay the inevitable disaster?*
*2/* I have always been deeply troubled by the presense of the element of "_fate_ or _doom_ in the history of the Chilldren of Illuvatar. It all seems as if everything that they do is pre-destined... Therefore, in larger scale - the _doom_ or the _fate_ of ME - is predestined too (a lot of clear evidences about this!).... It *doesn't make sense !* The question, discussed in a few other threads arises here as well - *Why would Illuvatar create a world that was meant to be destroyed?*
_All quotes above - from the Silmarillion_


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## Tyaronumen (Nov 1, 2002)

Ulmo's sending Tuor to Gondolin has nothing to do with it's fall or non-fall.

Gondolin WAS going to fall - it was inevitable, as Ulmo stated to Turgon long before the city was built.

When Ulmo sent Tuor to Gondolin, this had nothing to do with "saving Gondolin" or any such thing -- it was an opportunity for the PEOPLE of Gondolin to be saved before Gondolin itself was destroyed (again -- an inevitable happening). 

Gondolin was going to be destroyed regardless of whether Tuor or Turgon did etc... that was in the cards.

Lhun -- it seems to me that the fate of all things that are born is to die eventually...? When a gardener plants a flower seed after the last frost in the spring time, (s)he knows that come autumn's freeze, the plant of that seed will die. So would it be better not to bother with the seed at all because of the inevitable result...? Yes, the seed would last, and last forever... but it would never have the struggle of bursting through a seed cover, and pushing through soil to reach the sun . . . growing tall and green and blossoming... ah-h-h-h, the fragance of the flowers!!! And yes, in the end, the earth grows cold . . . the flowers wilt . . . the plant is dead -- but it has seeded, and it's children will live again!

Better that the seed never have been planted because it's inevitable fate is death...? No! No! A thousand times, no! Plant the flower, smell the fragance, enjoy the beauty. When it is gone, give thanks for the joy it gave to the world!


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