# The Architecture of Middle Earth



## Bellerophon (Oct 26, 2020)

What are the views of members here on the depictions of architecture in illustrated versions of Tolkien's books or in film adaptations?


My initial thoughts on the Peter Jackson Films;

Minas Tirith, essentially Norman in style, excellent, except perhaps that the ‘prow’ of the terrace at the highest level overhangs a little too much. I think Denethor's Hall is one of the most convincing architectural settings in the whole series. Perhaps the contrast between the black columns and white stone is a bit harsh, the purple-grey of Purbeck limestone might have been softer and more like English medieval stonework but maybe that’s being picky.

The Hall of the Rohirrim as a Saxon Moot-hall again a convincing interpretation of Tolkien.

When we get to Numenorean architecture I am less convinced. The proportions of Orthanc seem to me too attenuated and there is too much delicate fretwork on the exterior. Tolkiens own sketch of Orthanc is very much a first draft and there’s no real detail but the proportions of the building as a whole are stockier and more powerful. Full marks for the Gates of Argonath though.


When it comes to Elvish architecture, illustrators are often tempted to use a kind of art-nouveau which always seems to me anachronistic. Saxon and Celtic art often uses intricate flowing patterns but until the late 19th century such forms were always confined to ornamental detail. In a world without wrought and cast iron, the underlying structure, whether in stone or timber, was always more tectonic.


Just a few thoughts to get a discussion going.


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## Akhôrahil (Oct 27, 2020)

If you are interested in architecture in Middle-earth and Numenor, I suggest to analize the descriptions of buildings in The Lord of the Rings, Unfinished Tales of Numenor and Middle-earth and The Silmarillion, although they are father limited. There are books with drawings of buildings that were drawn by J.R.R. Tolkien. The Illustrators Alan Lee and John Howe did the concept Art for the films and as far as I remember they also designed the buildings. The buildings in Minas Tirith are romanesque and not norman in style.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 27, 2020)

Tolkien did several drawings for Orthanc. I believe this was his final one:


But I confess a real fondness for Alan Lee's conception, even though far more elaborate:


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## Olorgando (Oct 27, 2020)

Akhôrahil said:


> ... The buildings in Minas Tirith are romanesque and not norman in style.


Erm ... this is where I definitely have to wave a white flag, as I am what, borrowing from music, could be described as "tone-deaf" when it comes to architecture.
I mean, I am *just* able to recognize that JRRT (or PJ, for that matter) did not describe or show any stuff to be Gothic.
And even this is only due to the fact that one of the major Gothic buildings in the world is my ancestral town Cologne's massive cathedral.

Whose twin steeples, I add with an unusual attack of chauvinism, top Orthanc's 500 feet by 15 feet. 😜

But the deflation is provided by a single-steeple church in Germany, the Ulm Minster (so called, and not a cathedral, as it was never the seat of a bishop), at 530 feet. And if Antoni Gaudí’s „Sagrada Familia“ in Barcelona is ever finished (I saw the construction site way back in 1975 during a vacation my parents and I took in Catalonia), that will take the pole position for churches with 566 feet.


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## Bellerophon (Oct 28, 2020)

Norman architecture is a form of Romanesque.

The columns depicted in outline on the western door into Moria are Greek Ionic in Tolkien's drawing, but generally classical, and as you say gothic, forms are absent.


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## Olorgando (Oct 28, 2020)

Bellerophon said:


> When it comes to Elvish architecture, illustrators are often tempted to use a kind of art-nouveau which always seems to me anachronistic.


This may have to do with the concept of the Elves, and fairies, and the French fées (from which is derived the German word Fee; I almost went apoplectic when I read, in the electronic TV guide of one of our private TV channels re-running the trilogy, Arwen referred to as the "Feenkönigin", which pretty much conjures up the vision of "queen of the Tinkerbelle fairies" for me! 🤮 ) all getting mixed up, aided, abetted and influenced by Shakespeare's rather abominable take on the topic.

Art-nouveau might be appropriate for the Vanyar. We really don’t know much about them. “Only” when Indis of the Vanyar became Finwë’s second wife, bearing him Fingolfin and Finarfin, did they have any impact of the legendarium. Granted, that impact is almost second to none, but mostly driven by Noldorin (Fëanorian) grudges.

For the Teleri, it would be a rather mixed bag. For those in Valinor, and Cirdan’s folk in M-e, something appropriate for shoreland dwellers and mariners. For all of the woodland Elves, something to do with flora (trees to flowers).

The Noldor, as the most “Dwarvish” of the Elves (JRRT nicely reconciled some unclear points about deep-Elves and dark-Elves and the like in Norse tradition), would probably show the greatest impact of “technology”. But how to display that, I wouldn’t know.


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## Ealdwyn (Oct 28, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Tolkien did several drawings for Orthanc. I believe this was his final one:
> View attachment 8318
> 
> But I confess a real fondness for Alan Lee's conception, even though far more elaborate:
> View attachment 8319


I love Alan Lee's version too, but the Tolkien sketch would seem nearer to his description of _a thing not made by the craft of Men_


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## ZehnWaters (Nov 29, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> And even this is only due to the fact that one of the major Gothic buildings in the world is my ancestral town Cologne's massive cathedral.


*Gasp* Cologne? It's one of the places in Germany I want to visit.



Olorgando said:


> This may have to do with the concept of the Elves, and fairies, and the French fées (from which is derived the German word Fee; I almost went apoplectic when I read, in the electronic TV guide of one of our private TV channels re-running the trilogy, Arwen referred to as the "Feenkönigin", which pretty much conjures up the vision of "queen of the Tinkerbelle fairies" for me! 🤮 ) all getting mixed up, aided, abetted and influenced by Shakespeare's rather abominable take on the topic.
> 
> Art-nouveau might be appropriate for the Vanyar. We really don’t know much about them. “Only” when Indis of the Vanyar became Finwë’s second wife, bearing him Fingolfin and Finarfin, did they have any impact of the legendarium. Granted, that impact is almost second to none, but mostly driven by Noldorin (Fëanorian) grudges.
> 
> ...


Agreed. Noldor would be similar to what we see in Minas Tirith generally (stone buildings, especially since they seem to keep building their city-states on or in stony areas). The Teleri of Aman lived in a corral city made by the Noldor so that would look Noldoran in nature. I agree that the Art Nouveau style would be used by the Vanyar. Silvan would be likely wood based and use floral and arboreal patterns. The Sindar are the hardest to pin down. They used and lived in wood, they had talented smiths, but they also lived in woods and had contact with the Silvan and Noldor.

The Mannish architecture was certainly spot on. I know Isengard was likely very off but it was lovely nonetheless.


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## Olorgando (Nov 30, 2020)

ZehnWaters said:


> *Gasp* Cologne? It's one of the places in Germany I want to visit.


I haven't been there since the mid-2000s when my last close relatives - and my mother's - died, her brother and sister-in-law.
I never lived there, as I was born outside of Germany, and spent the first 19 years of my life outside. Cologne was the city my parents and I visited for home leave and vacation, with all close relatives living along along a single tram route. But when my parents returned to Germany, it was to northern Bavaria (business reasons on my father's part) if to a city (about one tenth the size of Cologne by population) that we had visited frequently and that we were not totally unfamiliar with. Yes, the cathedral is impressive, but what else has been going on in the way of building in those last 15 years, I don't know.
Most of Cologne would be post-WW II buildings, as it was the large city with the greatest percentage of buildings destroyed in the war (upwards of 70%). It was just too close to the Netherlands border, so withing easy range of the RAF, and the target of their first 1,000-bomber attack in 1942. By the end of the war, there may have been as few as 20,000 inhabitants remaining in the city, down from the pre-war 770,000 - the city was practically evacuated completely.

So besides the cathedral ... 

BTW, I wondered for a short time where "that Z-guy had got to" (you had almost all the posts in the list of most recent), until the "penny dropped" that you had gotten yourself an avatar ... 😆


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## Akhôrahil (Dec 1, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> Most of Cologne would be post-WW II buildings, as it was the large city with the greatest percentage of buildings destroyed in the war (upwards of 70%).


I saw pictures of Rotterdam (I think it is the second largest city in the Netherlands) that were taken after the bombings in WW II. Basically all buildings to the horizon except one were destroyed and just rubble (looked like 99 percent). Rotterdam is now known for its modern architecture. I discovered that dutch is sort of in between german and english when I learned it during a semester at Erasmus university there. I think I remember that Tolkien also wanted to have an influence on the dutch translation or LOTR, because he had some knowledge of it.


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## Olorgando (Dec 1, 2020)

Akhôrahil said:


> I saw pictures of Rotterdam (I think it is the second largest city in the Netherlands) that were taken after the bombings in WW II. Basically all buildings to the horizon except one were destroyed and just rubble (looked like 99 percent). Rotterdam is now known for its modern architecture. I discovered that dutch is sort of in between german and english when I learned it during a semester at Erasmus university there. I think I remember that Tolkien also wanted to have an influence on the dutch translation or LOTR, because he had some knowledge of it.


At least as far as the initial attacks on The Netherlands by Nazi Germany in 1940 (part of the western offensive mainly aimed at France) are concerned, Rotterdam's inner city, as with all European cities the oldest part, suffered heavy damage due to fires. Fires *caused* by the bombing aimed at more limited military targets there, certainly, but not through *direct* bombing of the ultimately damaged area. The Netherlands were also bypassed by much military ground action by the Allies in 1944, who were driving into Germany proper. It would depend on from which perspective those pictures you mention were taken.

Dutch most likely belongs to the "Low Germanic" family or whatever of languages. This differentiation between "Low" and "High", no joke, is measured in altitude above sea level. Everyone in Germany, including the Bavarians themselves, would look at anybody calling the Bavarian dialect, in *modern* terms, "High German", with a quizzical look, perhaps mixed with concern, conveying something like the thought "which 'funny farm' have *you* escaped from?". Those Angles, Saxons (and Jutes) who started "migrating" to the British Isles about 1,500 years ago hailed (as far as this can be reliably ascertained ... erm ...) from a region widely straddling the modern Danish-German border, from the north Germanic flatlands. Rotterdam (at least), located on or near where the Rhine river flows in to the North Sea, might rather belong to the linguistic region of the lower Rhine. So you might want to look to north German regions (like Hamburg) or south Danish regions for dialects intermediary between German and English, more than the geographically nearer Netherlands (with whom the Brits certainly had several military conflicts mostly explainable by commercial rivalry - aka "managers" managing to dupe politicians).


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## Aldarion (Dec 1, 2020)

Bellerophon said:


> What are the views of members here on the depictions of architecture in illustrated versions of Tolkien's books or in film adaptations?
> 
> 
> My initial thoughts on the Peter Jackson Films;
> ...


Some notes:
1) Color contrast in Denethor's Hall - white-and-black - is inspired by the flag of Gondor, which is a White Tree on a black background
2) We actually see Orthanc how Tolkien finally envisaged it on the cover of The Two Towers:





3) Elvish architecture is... well, magic, but point is that it is designed to feel as natural and unintrusive as possible. So I am on a fence there.


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## ZehnWaters (Dec 2, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> BTW, I wondered for a short time where "that Z-guy had got to" (you had almost all the posts in the list of most recent), until the "penny dropped" that you had gotten yourself an avatar ... 😆


I'm rather fond of it. Ar-Pharazôn was a jerk but he looked awful nice.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Dec 8, 2020)

Bellerophon said:


> ....Minas Tirith, essentially Norman in style, excellent, except perhaps that the ‘prow’ of the terrace at the highest level overhangs a little too much. I think Denethor's Hall is one of the most convincing architectural settings in the whole series....


My dear, I'm pretty sure in PJ's version, Minas Tirith is mentioned as Byzantine style, just take a look at "the making of LOTR and behind the scenes". For my connection now is sucking, I'll provide them on the other days, I'm pretty sure I've witnessed such description before.


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## Sir Eowyn (Jan 6, 2021)

Well, Barad-dur looks pretty damn Gothic, doesn't it? Monstrously so, which gives me a nice little thrill.

With the Elves, it's tricky... Art Nouveau is a bit of an anachronism, yes. But then, Tolkien's whole conception of the Shire, as an eighteenth-century pasture with a postal service and plenteous tobacco, is pretty anachronistic too. Just what do you do with the Elves? Their nearest analogue is with ancient Celts, and very little of their architecture survives.


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## Alcuin (Jan 8, 2021)

In the footnote to _Letter_ 140, Christopher Tolkien remarks that
​[I]n [JRR Tolkien’s] original design for the jacket of _The Two Towers_ … the Towers are certainly Orthanc and Minas Morgul. Orthanc is shown as a black tower, three-horned … with the sign of the White Hand beside it; Minas Morgul is a white tower with a thin waning moon above it in reference to its original name, Minas Ithil, the Tower of the Rising Moon… Between the two towers a Nazgûl flies.​​But the footnote begins, “In a subsequent letter to Rayner Unwin ([_Letter_ number] 143), Tolkien is more definite that the Two Towers are ‘Orthanc and the Tower of Cirith Ungol’.” And in the text of _Letter_ 140 itself (also to Rayner Unwin), Tolkien says he is debating whether “Two Towers” refers to Orthanc (“Isengard”) and Barad-dûr, to Minas Tirith and Barad-dûr, or to Orthanc (“Isengard”) and Cirith Ungol. 

But the cover art you show, Aldarion, displays Minas Morgul on the left and Orthanc (Isengard) on the right, with a Nazgûl flying from Minas Morgul to Isengard.


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## Aldarion (Jan 8, 2021)

Alcuin said:


> But the cover art you show, Aldarion, displays Minas Morgul on the left and Orthanc (Isengard) on the right, with a Nazgûl flying from Minas Morgul to Isengard.


Indeed... and it fixes quote a few misconceptions stemming from fanfics:
1) Minas Morgul was _white, _much like Minas Tirith.
2) Nazguls' pets were most akin to pterodactyls, it seems.

Anyway, it does appear that Tolkien eventually settled on Minas Morgul and Orthanc as "two towers". It makes sense, too, as they were seats of commanders and armies.


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## ZehnWaters (Jan 13, 2021)

Aldarion said:


> Indeed... and it fixes quote a few misconceptions stemming from fanfics:
> 1) Minas Morgul was _white, _much like Minas Tirith.
> 2) Nazguls' pets were most akin to pterodactyls, it seems.
> 
> Anyway, it does appear that Tolkien eventually settled on Minas Morgul and Orthanc as "two towers". It makes sense, too, as they were seats of commanders and armies.


It's always been my understanding that they were pterodactyl-like, however I do like the film version.

Can we also talk about the fact that the tower in Minas Morgul rotates? lol What kind of historical architecture does THAT mimic?


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## Aldarion (Jan 13, 2021)

ZehnWaters said:


> It's always been my understanding that they were pterodactyl-like, however I do like the film version.
> 
> Can we also talk about the fact that the tower in Minas Morgul rotates? lol What kind of historical architecture does THAT mimic?


Good Guy Sauron Started Industrial Revolution!

Except that _doesn't_ make him good...


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## Elthir (Jan 13, 2021)

Aldarion said:


> Anyway, it does appear that Tolkien eventually settled on Minas Morgul and Orthanc as "two towers". It makes sense, too, as they were seats of commanders and armies.



And not that you don't know, but JRRT's "towering cover art" also agrees (with respect to Orthanc and Minas Morgul) with the note published at the end of _The Fellowship of The Ring_.

The description that begins: *"Here ends the first part of the history . . ."*

23 February 1954 "... _He also returns, rewritten, the note for the last page of FR_."
[*Hammond and Anderson* - JRR Tolkien: A Descriptive Bibliography, pp. 91-2]


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