# Saurons eye



## Anamatar IV (Sep 1, 2002)

Is it a real eye or not. In the return of the king on page 244 it says: ...from some great window immeasurable high there stabbed a flame of red, the flicker the peircing eye.

So is there really an eye sitting up there on the tower?


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## Lhunithiliel (Sep 1, 2002)

Sauron's shape is described as an "lidless eye". So, yes, it is an eye surrounded by flames. I am sure there was a place in the book describing it, but sorry, I could not find it right now.



> So is there really an eye sitting up there on the tower?/QUOTE]
> *bursts with laughter*
> Forgive me, but it's so funny to imagine how an eye can "sit"!!!


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## Anamatar IV (Sep 1, 2002)

im glad i can provide laughter at what i say!


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## Goldberry344 (Sep 1, 2002)

> The eye was rimmed with fire, but was itself glazed, yellow as a cat's, watchful and intent, and the black slit of its pupil opened in a pit, a window into nothing.


 The fellowship of the ring, The mirror of galadriel, page 409 (in my book) 


the concept is rather humerous, anamatar.


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## Bombadillo (Sep 2, 2002)

sorry to inrterrupt your totally senseless discussion, but how would a lidless EYE put the one ring back on his FINGER when the nazgul got it?
this would be a real dillemma for sauron...


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## Nenya Evenstar (Sep 2, 2002)

Yeah - I'm sorry as well for interupting your very entertaining conversation.  

Probably once the lidless eye got the Ring, it would be able to take human form again.


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## Tar-Elenion (Sep 2, 2002)

Sauron did not take the form of a Lidless Eye with or without the Ring. 
Of Sauron's form JRRT wrote in Letter 246:


> In the contest with the Palantír Aragorn was the rightful owner. Also the contest took place at a distance, and in a tale which allows the incarnation of great spirits in a physical and destructible form their power must be far greater when actually physically present. Sauron should be thought of as very terrible.*The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic.* In his earlier incarnation he was able to veil his power (as Gandalf did) and could appear as a commanding figure of great strength of body and supremely royal demeanour and countenance.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Sep 2, 2002)

I'm very confused now. So are you saying that Sauron actually had a body in the LOTR trillogy?


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## Tar-Elenion (Sep 2, 2002)

Yes, I am saying that. I am also repeating what JRRT said. He said Sauron had a body.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Sep 2, 2002)

Uhh... what about all that stuff that says Sauron is only a spirit? I have always thought that Sauron did not have physical form. I've always thought that the books were quite clear on that... must be very confused.


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## Tar-Elenion (Sep 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Nenya Evenstar _
> Uhh... what about all that stuff that says Sauron is only a spirit?


All what stuff?


> I have always thought that Sauron did not have physical form.


A common misperception.


> I've always thought that the books were quite clear on that... must be very confused.


Gollum says: "Yes, He [Sauron] has only four [fingers] on the Black Hand, but they are enough...".
Kind of hard to have a hand with four fingers if you dont have a form (or are simply an eyball).


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## Nenya Evenstar (Sep 2, 2002)

Thanks for pointing this out! I had no idea about any of it. I will be doing some major research...



> All what stuff?



Actually, I don't know where to find any of it. I've always just assumed that he had no physical form. I will look into this in more depth. Do you have any more references which refer to this?


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## Galadhwen (Sep 2, 2002)

Wasn't that before the incident with Narsil and the disembodimenty thing?


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## Bombadillo (Sep 2, 2002)

thank god that's clear before this thread i also thought that sauron was in human form... i got all twisted inside.
i think sauron printed that eye in the minds of people, when focused his mind on the spirit of his victoms.


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## Winged Elf (Sep 2, 2002)

But in TTT, just before Merry and Pippin escape, Grishnakh says "You ought to know that [the Nazgul are] the apple of the Great Eye". Doesn't that imply he doesn't have a physical body and takes the form of an eye? *confused*


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## Lhunithiliel (Sep 2, 2002)

Sauron - body or no body... one of the most discussed topics. Yes.

He did have a body BEFORE the ring was cut off > the ring is taken from him > he is disembodied > he looses strength for many many years > he is searching for the ring to return his powers (remember he had poured all his malice...... into the One?) > the ring is hopelessly lost out of Sauron's sight and knowledge> he can not get back his strength to choose a new shape/body he would wish to have > he chooses HORROR as his new "BODY" (isn't a lidless eye in flames horrifying?!)

This is a brief history of Sauron's body.
I promise I'll provide some quotes.... Only wait untill tomorrow, wait untill tomorrow (...said Sherezada (sp?) to the shach  )

By then, however, some of the wise guys here may provide these quotes instead of me, too.


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## Tar-Elenion (Sep 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Galadhwen _
> *Wasn't that before the incident with Narsil and the disembodimenty thing? *



Wasn't what?
_JRRT_ said Sauron had a 'human' form, and had this form at the time of LotR. Gollum describes Sauron as having a hand with only four fingers. This takes place long after the 'Narsil incident'.


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## Tar-Elenion (Sep 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Winged Elf _
> But in TTT, just before Merry and Pippin escape, Grishnakh says "You ought to know that [the Nazgul are] the apple of the Great Eye". Doesn't that imply he doesn't have a physical body and takes the form of an eye? *confused*


Gorbag says "What Lugburz will do with such stuff I can't guess."
Shagrat says "...he'll be all right. Or would be if Lugburz would let him alone."
Lugburz is B.S. for Barad-dur. 
Does this imply that a _building_ actually wanted and was going to do something with Frodo?
JRRT (the Author) says Sauron has a physical form (like that of a man).


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## Tar-Elenion (Sep 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Lhunithiliel _
> Sauron - body or no body... one of the most discussed topics. Yes.
> 
> He did have a body BEFORE the ring was cut off > the ring is taken from him > he is disembodied > he looses strength for many many years > he is searching for the ring to return his powers (remember he had poured all his malice...... into the One?) > the ring is hopelessly lost out of Sauron's sight and knowledge> he can not get back his strength to choose a new shape/body he would wish to have > he chooses HORROR as his new "BODY" (isn't a lidless eye in flames horrifying?!)



JRRT wrote in Letter 200:


> It was because of this pre-occupation with the Children of God that the spirits so often took the form and likeness of the Children, especially after their appearance. It was thus that Sauron appeared in this shape. It is mythologically supposed that when this shape was 'real', that is a physical actuality in the physical world and not a vision transferred from mind to mind, it took some time to build up. It was then destructible like other physical organisms. But that of course did not destroy the spirit, nor dismiss it from the world to which it was bound until the end. After the battle with Gilgalad and Elendil, Sauron took a long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the Downfall of Númenor (I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, which might be called the 'will' or the effective link between the indestructible mind and being and the realization of its imagination). The impossibility of re-building after the destruction of the Ring, is sufficiently clear 'mythologically' in the present book.



JRRT wrote in Letter 246:


> In the contest with the Palantír Aragorn was the rightful owner. Also the contest took place at a distance, and in a tale which allows the incarnation of great spirits in a physical and destructible form their power must be far greater when actually physically present. Sauron should be thought of as very terrible.The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic. In his earlier incarnation he was able to veil his power (as Gandalf did) and could appear as a commanding figure of great strength of body and supremely royal demeanour and countenance.



Gollum says: "Yes, He [Sauron] has only four [fingers] on the Black Hand, but they are enough...".

Sauron has a physical body. JRRT (the author) quite explicitly said so.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Sep 2, 2002)

Ok, now I'm really spinning in circles. I don't know who to follow here... What Lhunithiliel said is what I've always thought. *very, very confused*.


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## Tar-Elenion (Sep 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Nenya Evenstar _
> *Ok, now I'm really spinning in circles. I don't know who to follow here... What Lhunithiliel said is what I've always thought. *very, very confused*. *



Note the difference: 
'What *Lhunithiliel* said': "he can not get back his strength to choose a new shape/body he would wish to have > he chooses HORROR as his new "BODY" (isn't a lidless eye in flames horrifying?!)".

What *JRRT* (the _author_) said: "The form that he took was that of a man".

I dont see what is so confusing about accepting what the author said about his own work, especially since he never said otherwise.


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## Ravenna (Sep 2, 2002)

I think much of the confusion arises due to the use of the 'Eye' both in the book and (more misleadingly) the film. 
I've always thought of the eye as a metaphor for Sauron's attention, or thought, rather than a physical disembodied eye floating around. Frodo, when wearing the Ring on Amon Hen, experiences this;


> And suddenly he felt the Eye. There was an eye in the Dark Tower that did not sleep. He knew that it had become aware of his gaze. A fierce eager will was there. It leaped towards him; almost like a finger he felt it, searching for him. Very soon it would nail him down, know just exactly where he was.


Frodo could not have physically felt an eyeball at that distance, what he felt was the attention and awareness of Sauron, who, whilst Frodo wore the ring, could perceive him, and therefore was mentally seeking his location.

As to Sauron's physical shape,, in addition to other quotes above, in The Council of Elrond Gandalf says;


> Some here will remember that many years ago I myself dared to pass the doors of the Necromancer inDol Guldur, and secretly explored its ways, and found thus that our fears were true: he was none other thanSauron, our enemy of old, at length taking shape and power again.


This says nothing of Sauron taking shape as an eyeball, and if he had, how would Gandalf have recognised him?


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## Lhunithiliel (Sep 3, 2002)

The FIRST thing *Lhunithiliel* said is:


> He did have a body BEFORE the ring was cut off >


And I'm pritty sure about that! Yes, Sauron HAD A HUMAN BODY, but when he lost the ring in which he had, sort of, transfered all his powers, it was impossible to take a human body shape again.
Besides, even your own quotes speak exactly in favour of my opinion.


> After the battle with Gilgalad and Elendil, Sauron took a long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the Downfall of Númenor (I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, which might be called the 'will' or the effective link between the indestructible mind and being and the realization of its imagination). The impossibility of re-building after the destruction of the Ring, is sufficiently clear 'mythologically' in the present book.


As he could not gain his previous shape (that of a human body), he chose the form which a lot of the characters are describing to have seen on one or another occasion of "meeting" Sauron - Boromir, Frodo, Gandalf, Galadriel, Pippin, Aragorn). 
I have to run off to work now , but the quotes I promissed are in fact the words of the above enlisted LOTR characters who speak of the "EYE" that they saw.


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## Silnarrin (Sep 3, 2002)

Sorry to jump in, but...

Are we applying 'mortal' restrictions of form upon an immortal? I had always assumed he was one, the other, or both forms depending upon how he chose to reveal himself. Is he not Maia?

I believe Sauron, like Lovecraft's dark gods, was difficult to view by mortals, and did not really conform to physical laws. Those beholding him saw what he wished them to see, whether it be in their minds or in the flesh.

Just my 2 cents worth...


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## Tar-Elenion (Sep 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Lhunithiliel _
> *The FIRST thing Lhunithiliel said is:
> quote:
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ...


*

Correct, Sauron had a 'human' form before the Ring was cut off his hand by Isildur. He also had a 'human' form before he was destroyed in the Atalante. He was disembodied then and had to reform. Similarly he eventually reformed/reembodied after the Ring was cut from his hand, as JRRT wrote in Letter 200: "After the battle with Gilgalad and Elendil, Sauron took a long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the Downfall of Númenor."
However JRRT the author (who wrote it and should know) said he rebuilt his form. JRRT also said what this form was in Letter 246: "The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic."





Besides, even your own quotes speak exactly in favour of my opinion.

Click to expand...

No it does not. The quote says "The impossibility of re-building after the destruction of the Ring". After the destruction of the Ring (when it fell into the fires of Orodruin) Sauron could not reform. _After_ the destruction of the Ring. Sauron was a disembodied spirit from the end of the Second Age when the Ring was cut off his hand until ca. TA 1100 when he reformed and took up his abode in Dol Guldur as the Necromancer. JRRT, the author, who wrote the book and should know, says of Sauron: "The form that he took was that of a man".



As he could not gain his previous shape (that of a human body), he chose the form which a lot of the characters are describing to have seen on one or another occasion of "meeting" Sauron - Boromir, Frodo, Gandalf, Galadriel, Pippin, Aragorn).

Click to expand...

He could regain his 'previous human shape'. Indeed the author says exactly that in Letter 246: "The form that he took was that of a man".




I have to run off to work now , but the quotes I promissed are in fact the words of the above enlisted LOTR characters who speak of the "EYE" that they saw.

Click to expand...

JRRT writes of the form that Sauron took: "The form that he took was that of a man".
JRRT even drew a picture of Sauron in a sketch for a dust jacket of RotK. The drawing quite clearly shows a hand, arm, shoulder and head with a red eye on the right side (the drawing is in profile). See JRR Tolkien Artist and Illustrator picture 181.*


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## Ravenna (Sep 3, 2002)

Lhunithiliel, none of the characters mentioned in your above post actually MET Sauron in person, they saw a vision of the Eye, or the awareness of Sauron, NOT his physical form. As I said before, the Eye is more of a literary device used by Tolkien to show the awareness of Sauron, a symbol if you like to show that the characters were aware of him and that he was alert to them. Most of these encounters also appeared either in dreams of visions.
Besides which, if you really insist on being literal about it then refer to the passage on the slopes of Caradhras;


> 'His arm has grown long indeed' said Gimli, 'if he can draw snow down from the North to trouble us here, three hundred leagues away'


To take that as anything but a figure of speech, is to believe that Sauron's physical arm can reach all the way from Mordor to the Misty Mountains, which is clearly ridiculous.
Yes Sauron did take a long time to recover his form after the ring was cut from his finger, but he had done so by the time of the Hobbit, at which time the White Council drove him out of Dol Guldur, and therefore was physically incarnated at the time of the War of the Ring.
Aslo don't forget that the Eye was the symbol that Sauron used for his forces, rather like Aragorn's black standard with it's device of a white tree, seven stars and the crown of Gondor. It was used to identify Sauron's forces, as opposed to Sauman's which bore the sign of the white hand.


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## Mithlond (Sep 3, 2002)

Lhunithiliel:
Are you disagreeing with Tolkien??
It seems pretty clear from his literary works and his "Letters", that Sauron was indeed *physical* during the third age, and ever more, that his form was "that of man shape".
It seems to me that what is metaphor you take as an actual meaning..
What possible advantage would Sauron obtain by becoming a physical Lidless eye...so he could search Middle-earth for his ring easier? I doubt he would need to physically become a _Lidless eye_ to do this...

We have this quote:


> The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic


Then just above it, in the exact same paragraph, we have this:


> In the contest with the Palantír Aragorn was the rightful owner.


Now, the struggle between Aragorn and Sauron with their Palantiri was clearly a third age event.

To add we also have Gollum (*A third age caracter* ), who was actually tortured by Sauron.
Now whether it was physical or mental torture, Gollum saw Sauron, he saw the four fingers..he saw the physical man shaped Sauron and his *fingers*.

Tokien directly states many times in his Letters, that Sauron did infact take physical form after his disembodiment from Isildur cutting the ring from his finger. 
Note that in his "Letters", we get good answers, and no misleading metaphor's.

Tolkien also does not say (from what i can remember anyway) in his letters, that Sauron actually took the form of a Lidless eye.

Alot of Tolkien's Letters and the later volumes of the History of Middle-earth books have writings from JRR that are _post_ Lord of the Rings. And since he changed his mind on a great many things after LotR was published, i tend to go with what his last thoughts were as fact.


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## Cian (Sep 3, 2002)

Ah I'm late to one of my favorite topics.

But just to add my opinion. Yes Sauron was physical again in the Third Age (and not as an Eye). The destruction of the Ring (not loss) prohibited his "rebuilding". Sauron was a self-incarnate and his body, the form of a Man as said, was (ultimately) physical enough and destructible in the Third Age.

__________
Editing in:

_I note your remarks about Sauron. He was always de-bodied when vanquished."_ ~ JRRT 1957

_"-- or rather this story exhibits 'myth' passing into History or the Dominion of Men; for of course the Shadow will rise again in a sense (as is clearly foretold by Gandalf), but never again (unless it be before the great End) will an evil daemon be incarnate as a physical enemy; ..."_ ~ JRRT


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## Lhunithiliel (Sep 4, 2002)

> "The form that he took was that of a man".


Be sure, I have learned this line by heart!  

OK, so when I'm wrong - I'm wrong! I'm not afraid to admit it!
And I am NOT oposing Tolkien, of course, either! 
*and runs to read the book more carefully... *   
.
.
.
Say, have you heard a saying "A cat never falls on its back" ?
Meaning that though I accept the truth of your quotes, somewhere deep in my mind I feel I still have what to add to my defence.. LOL!!!
I shall have to "dig" deeper...for the right evidences.


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## Lhunithiliel (Sep 5, 2002)

Let it not sound as a silly excuse, but I was very short of time, which did ot give me the chance to "dig" for some quotes.
However, I'd like to add a few aspects on the discussion WITHOUT quotes. 
You stated that Sauron recovered his human form basing your argument on the quote from one of Tolkien's letters


> Letter 246: "The form that he took was that of a man".


Good. Now, can you provide a quote directly from the Silmarillion (considered as the "FINAL" version of the story) where it is PARTICULARLY said what EXACT form the Dark Lord had? For even if stated otherwise by Tolkien in OTHER of his writen works, it was aknowledged not once that in the course of creating the saga, Tolkien changed the stories and the characters, alterated bits from them, brought new elements... And as some were left unfinalized and others - contradictive, because of the lots of changes made, the FINAL version was the Silmarillion which did NOT include his letters or/and many other wonderful sources where these additional thoughts of the author were shown.

Eye, or a human body, or just a shadow, or a terrifying and choking sense of horror.....aren't all these embodiments of Sauron? He was a Maia and a powerful one. And as all the Maiar, Sauron could chose the form he appeared in front of his allies and/or enemies. That's why he is "seen" or "felt" in different ways. But the "lidless eye surrounded by flames" was a picture a lot of the LOTR characters saw in their encounters with Sauron. Although I can not now provide the exact quotes but I remember well an extract (if not mistaken in the ROTK) where the Orcs as well spoke about this image of the burning eye watching from the top of the tower. This is the image Frodo saw in his dreams, the image Aragorn saw in the Palantir, and I recall Gandalf and Boromir speaing about this particular image as well. (AGAIN! sorry for not having had the time to find those quotes!).

The point is - where in the Silmarillion is it PRECISELY specified what form Sauron had? OR / AND was that the ONLY form he had?

As for the "eye" being a symbol etc., no doubt of that. But this is an entirely other issue of discussion, that perhaps could be called - "What does one or another Tolkien-created character represent?"


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## Cian (Sep 5, 2002)

Since Tolkien desired to keep his Third Age Dark Lord 'offstage' in a storial way, a certain lack of a lot of easy, clear description of his actual 'body' is not unexpected. Tolkien's storial approach to a 'shadowy' Sauron was masterful, but that doesn't mean there was no physicality present from a mythological point of view. Why not include Tolkien explaining his Mythology out of story, as in _Letters_ where he can speak more plainly?



> *For even if stated otherwise by Tolkien in OTHER of his writen works, it was aknowledged not once that in the course of creating the saga, Tolkien changed the stories and the characters, alterated bits from them, brought new elements... And as some were left unfinalized and others - contradictive, because of the lots of changes made, the FINAL version was the Silmarillion which did NOT include his letters or/and many other wonderful sources where these additional thoughts of the author were shown.*



Tolkien is actually very consistent on this point and is consistent with published works. Why assume Gollum's description was not about something physical?



> *Eye, or a human body, or just a shadow, or a terrifying and choking sense of horror.....aren't all these embodiments of Sauron?*



But we are talking about a physical, destructible body. That is the type described by the author; the same type of body Sauron physically fought with at the Last Alliance could be ultimately rebuilt in the Third Age, and was (only that it took longer).



> *The point is - where in the Silmarillion is it PRECISELY specified what form Sauron had? OR / AND was that the ONLY form he had?*



What 'precisely' in LOTR conflicts with Tolkien's explanation elsewhere of a 'bodied' 'incarnate' Sauron  JRRT chose those words, despite that Sauron is not a natural incarnate.


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## Tar-Elenion (Sep 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Lhunithiliel _
> Now, can you provide a quote directly from the Silmarillion (considered as the "FINAL" version of the story) where it is PARTICULARLY said what EXACT form the Dark Lord had?


The Silmarillion is considered the final form of _what story_, and by whom?



> For even if stated otherwise by Tolkien in OTHER of his writen works, it was aknowledged not once that in the course of creating the saga, Tolkien changed the stories and the characters, alterated bits from them, brought new elements...


In LotR Gollum speaks of Sauron's hand, with only four fingers on it. Was Sauron's hand attached to the great dissembodied Eye?
In a sketch JRRT drew for a cover of RotK Sauron was pictured as shaped like a 'man' (see above post for citation).


> And as some were left unfinalized and others - contradictive, because of the lots of changes made, the FINAL version was the Silmarillion which did NOT include his letters or/and many other wonderful sources where these additional thoughts of the author were shown.


The Silmarillion was the final version of what?



> Eye, or a human body, or just a shadow, or a terrifying and choking sense of horror.....aren't all these embodiments of Sauron?
> 
> 
> > No. Only his 'human' form would be an 'embodiment'.


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## Lhunithiliel (Sep 6, 2002)

> Tar-Elenion: Was Sauron's hand attached to the great dissembodied Eye?



Well, now! Are we going to discuss in a civilized manner or use mockery in order to look more convincing in our arguments?



> Tar-Elenion: The Silmarillion is considered the final form of what story, and by whom?


I' ll quote from the book:


> The Silmarillion, now published four years after the death of its author, is an account of the Elder Days, or the First Age of the World.


and a bit further:


> ...But it was far indeed from being a fixed text, and did not remain unchanged even in certain fundamental ideas concerning the nature of the world it portrays; while the same legends came to be retold in longer and shorter forms, and in different styles. As the years passed the changes and variants, both in detail and in larger perspectives, became so complex, so pervasive, and so many-layered that a final and definitive version seemed unattainable. Moreover the old legends ('old' now not only in their derivation from the remote First Age, but also in terms of my father's life) became the vehicle and depository of his profoundest reflections. In his later writing mythology and poetry sank down behind his theological and philosophical preoccupations: from which arose incompatibilities of tone.


And so on. You have the book - it is all on the starting pages.

I, however, should correct myself - Not only the Silmarillion I had in mind but also the other main books (LOTR and the Hobbit). If you state that Sauron had ONLY one form - that of a human body, then quote from these books the extracts where it is PARTICULARLY mentioned and/or described so! The LETTERS, you so many times refer to, are just to reveal the course of creation of one or another character, the author's opinions on what he was creating, the desire to share these opinions and comment on them. The content of the Letters, however, can hardly be accepted as the FINAL decision of how exactly this or another character would be presented in the main stroy.


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## Ponte (Sep 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Tar-Elenion _
> *
> 
> In LotR Gollum speaks of Sauron's hand, with only four fingers on it. Was Sauron's hand attached to the great dissembodied Eye?
> *



Gollums words don't need to mean that Sauron really had a body, Gollum could have meant it mental if you understand what I mean.

Sauron lost power when he was destroyed in the Atalante, couldn't he had lost so mutch power when the ring was taken away by Isildur and he was defeated that he couldn't take shape again?


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## Mithlond (Sep 6, 2002)

*Lhunithiliel:*


> If you state that Sauron had ONLY one form - that of a human body, then quote from these books the extracts where it is PARTICULARLY mentioned and/or described so!


This has already been done.
1. Gollum's account of his time in Barad-dur within the presence of Sauron, which is in _The Two Towers_. (quote found elsewhere in this thread)
2. The dust jacket for RotK illustrated by JRR Tolkien himself depicting a "human form" Sauron on the cover.

*Buu:*
Gollum's words seem more "real" than metaphorical. Plus the fact that his words match up with ancient history when Sauron's ring was cut from his hand three thousand years prior.
Now Gollum, or rather, Smeagol would have heard the story of Sauron's defeat in the Last Alliance i'd say. *But*, i do not think he would have heard that the ring was *cut* from Sauron's hand. Such information is insignificant to lesser people, all they needed to know was that Sauron was defeated and all is well.

There have been numerous *quotes* in this thread taken from a huge variety of Tolkien's work, stating Sauron took shape again in Middle-earth during the third age. 
Please read them if you havent...


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## Lhunithiliel (Sep 6, 2002)

I see you prefer having a "quotes-battle"!

Why! Thank you! I was worried I could not find the right quotes and they have been right under my nose all the time! Provided by YOU!



> Frodo, when wearing the Ring on Amon Hen, experiences this;
> And suddenly he felt the Eye. There was an eye in the Dark Tower that did not sleep. He knew that it had become aware of his gaze. A fierce eager will was there. It leaped towards him; almost like a finger he felt it, searching for him. Very soon it would nail him down, know just exactly where he was.


And another:


> The FOTR- The Mirror of Galadriel,
> “The eye was rimmed with fire, but was itself glazed, yellow as a cat's, watchful and intent, and the black slit of its pupil opened in a pit, a window into nothing.


Clear!

On the other hand, how about the other quotes provided. I did read them but they do NOT say anything specific about the shape Sauron had.
Let's see:



> Letter 246
> Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic. In his earlier incarnation he was able to veil his power (as Gandalf did) and could appear as a commanding figure of great strength of body and supremely royal demeanor and countenance.



Mind It! SHOULD BE thought of as very terrible! I take that as an evidence that he could take ANY shape he wished in different circumstances.

Another quote, providing the same evidence - there is NO specification of Sauron's ONE and ONLY form in the LOTR-book:



> Letter 200:
> After the battle with Gilgalad and Elendil, Sauron took a long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the Downfall of Númenor (I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, which might be called the 'will' or the effective link between the indestructible mind and being and the realization of its imagination).


 "Re-build" - Into what shape? Does it specify? It could be ANY he chose!

Or still further:


> Gandalf at the Council of Elrond:
> Some here will remember that many years ago I myself dared to pass the doors of the Necromancer inDol Guldur, and secretly explored its ways, and found thus that our fears were true: he was none other thanSauron, our enemy of old, at length taking shape and power again.


 "Taking shape and power again" - What shape? Does he specify?

So, I do think that although in some written sources the author stated his vision about Sauron's form of appearance, in the main book he left this not specified. And I think that was extremely clever and thoughtfull - Sauron could be seen in different shapes and forms BECAUSE he chose to do so.


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## Ravenna (Sep 6, 2002)

> there was an Eye in that tower that did not sleep



This does not necessarily mean an eye was floating around the tower, could it not refer to the fact that as a Maiar, Sauron did not require sleep, and therefore was always alert. It's no different to me saying to my children 'I've got my eye on you'. A metaphor. I also recall vaguely a comment that Sauron had many ears, but it never occurred to me to take this literally. Tolkien could have said in that sentence that Frodo 'felt the focus of Sauron's mind searching mentally for him', but it certainly wouldn't have been so gripping as the image of the eye searching. Plus if you take that quote completely literally, you would have to admit that Sauron also had a finger, which in turn implies a hand, arm and the rest of a human body. Just because all that is seen in Visions is Sauron's eye, does not mean that there is nothing else there.

I take your point that Sauron could have taken any shape he wanted, and that it is not specifically specified which shape he had taken during the war of the ring. But as his normal incarnate form over the millennia had been that of a man, (the Sil states also that when the Ainur took mortal appearance they were humanoid, if elven instead of human), it seems reasonable to me to assume that this is the form that he took once more. After all, he could have appeared as a spotted tadpole if he wanted, but it wouldn't have helped much. I'm honestly not mocking here, but it seems only logical to me that he would have chosen the most practical form available, and if he wanted to wear the ring, he would need a hand.

Practically speaking as well, if Sauron was incarnated as a man when Isildur cut the ring from his finger, and his power was so much diminished by that maiming, it also occurs to me that he may have been unable to take any other form until he regained the ring, I mean we already know that he was unable to take 'fair' form again after being caught in the downfall of Numenor, so why not a further limitation when his power was so drastically curtailed? Just a random thought there, nothing to back it up I'm afraid.


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## Mithlond (Sep 6, 2002)

> And suddenly he felt the Eye.


_Felt_ the eye. This would be the same feeling anyone would get when you think someone is watching you, its an awkward kind of feeling. But when you feel this do you think some giant eye is hiding somewhere watching you? no you wouldn't.

Lhunithieliel, what do you make of the dust jacket illustrated by Tolkien for the *Return of the King*?
The illustration was of Sauron himself in a humaniod form. Now thats some hard evidence right there.
Sorry i can't provide a link or anything to the cover art, but i have seen it online before, i'll have a search around for it and post it up if i come across it.


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## Lantarion (Sep 6, 2002)

In reference to the Eye actually being in the tower: I think Sauron's spiritual form was still quite intact, but he could not form a visible humanoid form powerful enough to withstand, for example, a direct attack of Barad-Dûr. Ofcourse, he had sentinels and captains and chieftains keeping coinstant watch, but they are not Sauron himself. What I'm trying to say is that that IMO Sauron had _enough_ regained power (regeneration? Could be) to form a sort of terrifying mental image when observed by others, but could not create a visible, touchable, material form in the Seen world.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Sep 6, 2002)

That is exactly what I am beginning to believe. And to back this up, since his servants could not really see him he had his one main captain, The Mouth of Sauron, to speak for him.


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## Ravenna (Sep 6, 2002)

JUst a couple of things I found while searching the Silmarillion re Sauron having taken physical shape.


> For coming out of the wastes of the East he took up his abode in the south of the forest and slowly he grew and took shape there again; in a dark hill he made his dwelling and wrought there his sorcery.


please note 'grew and took shape'.
and again



> 'It is Sauron himself who has taken shape again and now grows apace.'



As to Sauron being too weak to take on more than a shadowy form, Mithrandir states to the White Council that


> Soon he will be too strong for you, even without the Great Ring; for he rules the Nine and of the Seven he has recovered three.


If he was that powerful at the time of the Hobbit, and was growing in power after that, I would think he certainly had enough power to take visible human form. As to using others to speak for him, many dictators, or rulers use this method of communicating with enemies, after all, Sauron is hardly likely to simply ride out into the midst of an army composed of his deadliest enemies, so instead he sends his emissary which is a perfectly normal thing to do in thiat situation.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Sep 6, 2002)

Hmmm... still thinking. It sure does appear, from all the quotes provided, that Sauron did have a physical body. It's just so hard to let go of a life-long picture of how you've always thought Sauron was... I'll work on it.


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## Lhunithiliel (Sep 7, 2002)

> Sauron was not of mortal flesh, and though he was robbed now of that shape in which he had wrought so great an evil, so that he could never again appear fair to the eyes of Men, yet his spirit arose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and a black wind over the sea, and came back to Middle-earth and to Mordor that was his home. *There he took up again his great Ring in Barad-dur, and dwelt there, dark and silent, until he wrought himself a new guise, an image of malice and hatred made visible; and the EYE of Sauron the Terrible few could endure* .



Well said BY TOLKIEN HIMSELF.


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## Tar-Elenion (Sep 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Lhunithiliel _
> Well, now! Are we going to discuss in a civilized manner or use mockery in order to look more convincing in our arguments?



The question was serious ('Buu' for example took the question in that manner and made answer to it). Gollum describes Sauron's hand. You argue that Sauron was a disembodied Eyeball. Where was the hand attached? 


Re: The Silmarillion being the 'final form'.

You provide quotes from the forward, none of which answer the question, What is The Silmarillion the final form of?




> If you state that Sauron had ONLY one form - that of a human body, then quote from these books the extracts where it is PARTICULARLY mentioned and/or described so! The LETTERS, you so many times refer to, are just to reveal the course of creation of one or another character, the author's opinions on what he was creating, the desire to share these opinions and comment on them. The content of the Letters, however, can hardly be accepted as the FINAL decision of how exactly this or another character would be presented in the main stroy.



No, the letter I cited (#246) is from 1963, well after LotR was published, and was in responce to a reader's comments on Frodo's failure at the Cracks of Doom. This can quite clearly be accepted as how the author veiwed the incarnation of Sauron.

The other letter I cited from (#200) is from 1957 above and shows JRRT's thoughts on Sauron's form a little after the publication of LotR. 

"It was because of this pre-occupation with the Children of God that the spirits so often took the form and likeness of the Children, especially after their appearance. It was thus that Sauron appeared in this shape. It is mythologically supposed that when this shape was 'real', that is a physical actuality in the physical world and not a vision transferred from mind to mind, it took some time to build up. It was then destructible like other physical organisms. But that of course did not destroy the spirit, nor dismiss it from the world to which it was bound until the end."

What shape did Sauron appear in? The "form and likeness of the Children".

Then of course we have the dust jacket sketch for RotK with Sauron's form clearly depicted, and the dust jacket design itself (#181 and #182 in 'Artist and Illustrator') These were done at a time when LotR was nearing completion (the sketch was drawn an a paper dated 1953).


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## Tar-Elenion (Sep 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Buu _
> Gollums words don't need to mean that Sauron really had a body, Gollum could have meant it mental if you understand what I mean.



Gollum clearly describes Sauron as having only four fingers on his hand. This does not seem metaphorical at all, especially since we know that Isildur chopped a finger off. 



> Sauron lost power when he was destroyed in the Atalante, couldn't he had lost so mutch power when the ring was taken away by Isildur and he was defeated that he couldn't take shape again?



No, since JRRT says he did take shape again: "After the battle with Gilgalad and Elendil, Sauron took a long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the Downfall of Númenor..." (Letter 200); LotR, App B, Third Age, Year 2060: "The power of Dol Guldur grows. The Wise fear that it may be Sauron taking shape again."

These in addition to the quotes provided by Ravenna above.


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## Eledhwen (Sep 7, 2002)

Some of these trains of thought imply that physical muscle is needed in order for there to be strength. I imagine Sauron the Maia as an angelic (spirit) being who can no longer obtain flesh and blood to clothe himself in. Like other spirit beings he has chosen the form of the Children of God (as Tar-Elenion quotes), but the physical-looking form he can take is limited by his own malice and loathing of beauty. I would imagine that, just as electricity can feel like a physical force, Sauron too could look and feel solid, as if he had a body of flesh and bone.

Four fingers? Sauron's choice, I think. If he can lose his entire body and re-form, surely he can replace the finger too. Maybe the gap is a focus for his malice.


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## Tar-Elenion (Sep 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Lhunithiliel _
> *
> 
> Well said BY TOLKIEN HIMSELF.  *



Quite well said. JRRT clearly states that Sauron had an Eye ("the Eye of Sauron"). His sketch of Sauron backs this up, he quite clearly draws an Eye in Sauron's head (which is attached to a torso, and has a shoulder, arm and hand clearly depicted).


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## Gil-Galad (Sep 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Lhunithiliel _
> *Sauron's shape is described as an "lidless eye". So, yes, it is an eye surrounded by flames. I am sure there was a place in the book describing it, but sorry, I could not find it right now.
> 
> 
> ...


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## Lhunithiliel (Sep 8, 2002)

Dear Loremaster Tar-Elenion,
You know, you and me are like two very, very old ladies, speaking to each other but not hearing well enough what each of them is speaking about!  No offence!  
I am trying to say that Sauron the Great Maia could choose to take ANY shape he wished, though not that mighty or that fair as he used to appear in in the old times. 
I am just saying that the form mostly seen by the majority of the LOTR characters is that of an "eye in burning flames". I am NOT the one who chose that shape - Sauron (through Tolkien, of course!) has chosen it! 
And the quotes some of the participants here, incl. me, have provided, clearly back up this argument.
Therefore, I most certainly could have NOT imagined an "eyeball (as a matter of fact, it was NOT an "eyeball" as you say; it was like the pupil of a cat's eye) with a four-fingered arm sticking out of it" (though what a horrifying picture it would have been!).

HEAR ME, I stand for the fact that Sauron cose to apear in diffrent forms, but mostly produced the horrifying image of the "burning eye". 

Now - the Letters:
What is commented on in them I will not deny. Yet, in the main story there have been numerous comments about the shape that Sauron had taken but not once it was clearly stated what exactly this shape was and if it was only one! 

Re. Gollum: Based on my theory that Sauron could choose any shape, I think he chose to appear in this precise form in front of Gollum in order to horify the poor creature. But THE MOST IMPORTANT point here is - Sauron may have chosen to look like in the old days because he knew that after he released Gollum the creature would go among the other peoples of the ME and terrified as he was, he would spread the news : "The Dark Lord has returned! Mighty as in the old days! Fear him! Obey him!" I can NOT accept what Gollum saw as an evidence of Sauron ONE and Only shape.

The drawing: Sorry, I can not comment, because I have no idea of what you are speaking. It is obvious that this is some drawing by Tolkien. OK. But I have to see it in order to comment , right?

There now, I have HEARD you and I'd like you to HEAR me!


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## Lhunithiliel (Sep 8, 2002)

Gil-Galad,  
Yes, only my eye is not burning within flames and I deffinitely do not live in a tower!   
But mornings are my favourite time of the day!!
-----------
I am GLAD that you have joined our Guild!


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## Tar-Elenion (Sep 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Lhunithiliel _
> I am trying to say that Sauron the Great Maia could choose to take ANY shape he wished, though not that mighty or that fair as he used to appear in in the old times.
> I am just saying that the form mostly seen by the majority of the LOTR characters is that of an "eye in burning flames". I am NOT the one who chose that shape - Sauron (through Tolkien, of course!) has chosen it!
> And the quotes some of the participants here, incl. me, have provided, clearly back up this argument.
> ...



There is no such 'fact'.
READ THIS:


> *Melkor alone of the Great became at last bound to a bodily form*; but that was because of the use that he made of this in his purpose to become Lord of the Incarnate, and of the great evils that he did in the visible body. Also he had dissipated his native powers in the control of his agents and servants, so that he became in the end, in himself and without their support, a weakened thing, consumed by hate and unable to restore himself from the state into which he had fallen. Even his visible form he could no longer master, so that its hideousness could not any longer be masked, and it showed forth the evil of his mind. *So it was also with even some of his greatest servants, as in these later days we see: they became wedded to the forms of their evil deeds, and if these bodies were taken from them or destroyed, they were nullified, until they had rebuilt a semblance of their former habitations*, with which they could continue the evil courses in which they had become fixed". (*Pengolodh here evidently refers to Sauron in particular*, from whose arising he fled at last from Middle-earth. But the first destruction of the bodily form of Sauron was recorded in the histories of the Elder Days, in the Lay of Leithian.)


This is from Note 5 to Osanwe-kenta (by JRRT) as published in VT 39.
Sauron, like Melkor, became bound to an incarnate form. This form was not an eyeball (or even a pupil). As JRRT says in Letter 200:
"It was because of this pre-occupation with the Children of God that the spirits so often took the form and likeness of the Children, especially after their appearance. It was thus that Sauron appeared in this shape."
And in Letter 246: "The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic." 



> Lhunithiliel wrote:
> Now - the Letters:
> What is commented on in them I will not deny. Yet, in the main story there have been numerous comments about the shape that Sauron had taken but not once it was clearly stated what exactly this shape was and if it was only one!



If this is true, then the only clear statements we have on the matter are those from 'Letters' and from 'Osanwe-kenta' and from the sketch and drawing of Sauron. These were done by JRRT and none of them suggest multiple forms and none of them suggest the form of an Eyeball (or a pupil (though you should reread the passage)).



> Re. Gollum: Based on my theory that Sauron could choose any shape, I think he chose to appear in this precise form in front of Gollum in order to horify the poor creature. But THE MOST IMPORTANT point here is - Sauron may have chosen to look like in the old days because he knew that after he released Gollum the creature would go among the other peoples of the ME and terrified as he was, he would spread the news : "The Dark Lord has returned! Mighty as in the old days! Fear him! Obey him!" I can NOT accept what Gollum saw as an evidence of Sauron ONE and Only shape.


Did Gollum do that?
You dont have to accept what Gollum said, but I will accept what JRRT said.
Based on what JRRT said, Sauron had one incarnate form which "was that of a man". 



> The drawing: Sorry, I can not comment, because I have no idea of what you are speaking. It is obvious that this is some drawing by Tolkien. OK. But I have to see it in order to comment , right?



J.R.R. Tolkien Artist and Illustrator, by Wayne G. Hammond and Christina Scull, published by Houghton Mifflin, ISBN 0-618-08361-8, $25.00.



> There now, I have HEARD you and I'd like you to HEAR me!


But have you HEARD the author?


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## mr underhill (Sep 8, 2002)

i doubt sauron would take the form of an eye.....

i always thought he used some kind o palantir type thing to see everything and he appeared as an eye...


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## Gil-Galad (Sep 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Lhunithiliel _
> *Gil-Galad,
> Yes, only my eye is not burning within flames and I deffinitely do not live in a tower!
> But mornings are my favourite time of the day!!
> ...


Yes I know,but I hate the mornings .10x for being so polite,and I'm happy too that you're there..
And by the way I forgot about the topic of the post.I have to agree with you again.I think that you should write down what do you think about every post,and my work will be just to write:"I agree with Lhu!"


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## Turin (Feb 12, 2003)

*How can souron put the ring on?*

If souron could not take fisical form, then if he obtained the ring how could he put it on?


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 12, 2003)

Where did you hear he didn't have a physical form at the time of the LOTR?

He sure did, one of the indications of this is Gollum's statement:



> `Yes, He has only four on the Black Hand, but they are enough,' said Gollum shuddering. 'And He hated Isildur's city.'



Gollum has seen Sauron while he was tormented in Barad-dur, so his statement is more than believable.


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## Turin (Feb 12, 2003)

Gandalf says somewere that "He cannot yet take fisical form" or something along those lines. I might be wrong.


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 12, 2003)

In the movie, perhaps? 
Don't take everything you hear in the movies for Tolkien fact!


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## Niniel (Feb 12, 2003)

I found two quotes proving that he has a physical form:
From Shadows of the Past:


> 'Then Sauron was vanquished and his spirit fled and was hidden for long years, until his shadow took shape again in Mirkwood.' (Gandalf)


From The Council of Elrond:


> 'He was none other than Sauron, our Enemy of old, at length taking shape and power again.' (also Gandalf)


 I guess that proves it.


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## mr underhill (Feb 12, 2003)

that simply states the shadow returned.. not many shadows are physical forms..

turin ive seen plenty of posts by you calling sauron souron...

its SAURON !!


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by mr underhill _
> *that simply states the shadow returned.. not many shadows are physical forms.. *



No, it states that the shadow _took shape_ again. A shadow that takes shape is not a shadow anymore.


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## Niniel (Feb 12, 2003)

Well, it still doesn't say it is a solid shadow. It might be a Sauron-shaped shadow that hasn't got any substance to it.  But then it would get really complicated, so I believe it is meant to say that he does get a solid form again.


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## LordOfMoria (Feb 12, 2003)

Sauron was also the necromanser that was taking sanctuary in Mirkwood!!!


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## Goldberry (Feb 12, 2003)

There was another statement someplace that said after the drowning of Numenor, he could never take a form that was fair to look upon again. So that doesn't preclude taking on an ugly form!


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## Turin (Feb 12, 2003)

Sorry about misspelling it.


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## Tar-Elenion (Feb 12, 2003)

"Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic."
Letter 246


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## reem (Feb 24, 2003)

*Sauron as an Eyeball!*

Here's a funny thought!! if Saurong was an eye, how could he use the Ring??! i mean, as a strong and powerful maiar and sorcerer he could have atleast gotten himself a regular body instead of a gigantic flaming eye!! so why didn't he?
and was he portrayed correctly in the movie? with the ring of stone or something like that surround him...?
(blink blink)!!
reem


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## Mithlond (Feb 24, 2003)

Sauron was not an eye during the time of the war of the ring, he regained his form many years prior. You must not mistake metaphor for actual fact, as Tolkien uses metaphor's alot during his tales.

Here is a thread for you to read on the subject, it has many valid points.
Sauron's Eye


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## BlackCaptain (Feb 24, 2003)

Ive always thought the same thing. Gollum mentions one time that Sauron has only 4 fingers and it is enough. He says it in the dead marshes after the Nazgûl flys over. Sauron is regaining strength apearantly, physical. But then youve got to wonder... why wouldnt Sauron come to the black gates then...?


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## Aulë (Feb 24, 2003)

Sauron, like most wise leaders, did not appear in battle unless absolutely nessessary.
In the Battle of Dagorlad, he did not appear at all, and only made an appearance after Barad-dur had been under seige for 7 years.


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## gandalfthegreat (Feb 24, 2003)

Seriously I also believe that Sauron only makes appearances when need be...and these are only in important instances.

-*Gandalf*-


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## FoolOfATook (Feb 24, 2003)

> Seriously I also believe that Sauron only makes appearances when need be...and these are only in important instances.



A strategy that he undoubtedly learned from his old boss.


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## Manwë Súlimo (Feb 24, 2003)

Also Sauron is not a good fighter. He has lost on every single combat situation he has come across. He lost with Huan, and during the siege of Barad-Dur, and any others that I can't think of at the moment. Sauron's strength was in cunning and guile, like his former master Melkor.


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## FoolOfATook (Feb 24, 2003)

> and during the siege of Barad-Dur,



To give the Dark Lord his due, I think it's worth noting that before Isildur made his lucky swing, Sauron did kill two great kings.


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## Goldberry (Feb 24, 2003)

*Re: Sauron as an Eyeball!*



> _Originally posted by reem _
> *Here's a funny thought!! if Saurong was an eye, how could he use the Ring??! i mean, as a strong and powerful maiar and sorcerer he could have atleast gotten himself a regular body instead of a gigantic flaming eye!! so why didn't he?
> and was he portrayed correctly in the movie? with the ring of stone or something like that surround him...?
> (blink blink)!!
> reem *



I don't know if JRRT really said Sauron was ONLY an eye at the time of the War of the Ring. His eye sees everything, but I never got the impression from the books that all there was to him was an eye. JRRT did say that after his body drowned in the destruction of Numenor, he could never again take a shape that was "fair" to men. But he was able to take hideous shape. So we may be able to assume that he could take a hideous form with an appendage that could wear the ring.


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## BlackCaptain (Feb 24, 2003)

Well surely the final blow to the Captains of the West would have been an important occasion! Not important enough?


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## Aulë (Feb 25, 2003)

I don't think Sauron would have been stupid enough, Gandalf was very powerful at the stage, and I doubt Sauron would want to test out those powers when he had a few thousand troops at his disposal.


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## olorin the maia (Feb 26, 2003)

As stated earlier, Sauron sends his servants to do his fighting, as leaders are wont to do.
The actual physical shape of Sauron in Barad-dur is unknowable. The Author states that he lost his ability to appear fair to Men (having been doubted by the Eldar for some time before that). I don't mean to repeat other's posts, sorry. 
The beauty of the Tale, and the magic of the Author's gift, is his ability to cause the reader to use imagination to create a picture of Sauron the Maia, in all his malevolent glory, far more potent than any painted picture or movie.


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## Lantarion (Feb 26, 2003)

Well said; but I've understood that the 'Eye' is just the image that Sauron, or the mention of Sauron, creates in the minds of people. A lidless, ever-watchful eye.. Sounds pretty scary to me! But that is one of the great wrongs in the movie, that Sauron was actually portrayed as a _floating eye_!! What the hell is that about?! 
And yes, Gollum says he has nine fingers, so Sauron must have a crude physical shape during the WR.


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## reem (Feb 26, 2003)

well it has been almost a year since i last read the book! and i have an extremely horrible memory, so i am excused if i don't remember such details but i just automatically thought of the movie and that was what i got in mind a huge lidless eyeball...which is kind of lame but i think that sauron didn't appear in most of the battles because it's always scarier when you have no idea what the enemy looks like. you don't fear the dark, but what might be IN the dark! ao i think it more of a psychological warfare thing than anything...very smart of him actually it makes every one imagine him ten times worse than what he really is. fear is a very strong weapon, i suppose.
,,,or atleast, that what i think he was doing!
reem


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## olorin the maia (Feb 26, 2003)

you are correct, Lantarion. When Frodo gazes into Galadriel's Mirror in Lothlorien, the last image he sees is a lidless eye, searching for him. He knows it is Sauron. And Galadriel confirms it by telling Frodo that she knows what he saw last, for it is in her mind, too.
I agree with reem, the movie didn't really do the Evil Eye of Sauron justice, but how far can a film go to portray malice, hatred, terror, lust for power and dominion over others? It works better in my mind's eye. Raises the hair on the nape of my neck just thinking about it!


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## FrankSinatra (Feb 27, 2003)

*Sauron*

Denethor actually laughs at Pippin, when he suggests that Sauron has come.

He implies that Sauron would only come out in the sureness of victory.

Hitler could have saved face had he picked up on that one...


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## Tar-Elenion (Feb 27, 2003)

Of Sauron's form JRRT wrote in Letter 246:


> In the contest with the Palantír Aragorn was the rightful owner. Also the contest took place at a distance, and in a tale which allows the incarnation of great spirits in a physical and destructible form their power must be far greater when actually physically present. Sauron should be thought of as very terrible.*The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic*. In his earlier incarnation he was able to veil his power (as Gandalf did) and could appear as a commanding figure of great strength of body and supremely royal demeanour and countenance.


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## Turin (Feb 28, 2003)

Hey maybe his Eye was so red because he can't blink because he doesn't have an eye lid.


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## Lantarion (Feb 28, 2003)

Excellent quote, tar-Elenion; confirmation at last! 
Haha turin. "Hey, Khamûl, have you seen my eyedrops?"


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