# Questions; Concerning Orcs and their Origins



## Aredhel (Dec 18, 2001)

*I do not know if this has been said before...*

When I read the Silmarillion, at the beginning, sort of, when Melkor captured the elves of a land, and they were slowly changed, and then were bred the Orcs...What do you think of that?


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## Gothmog (Dec 18, 2001)

> But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainity. for who of the living has descenced into the pits of Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor.



It is not certain that the Orcs were from the Elves, no one can give a definate answer.



> Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressea, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved: and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs.



This is what the Elves believed. It is not necesseraly true. I think that there are Quotes from JRR Tolkien's letters that say the Orcs are not Elves but you will have to ask Cian about them. So The origin of the Orcs is a mystery to all save Iluvatar and perhaps the Valar.


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## Aredhel (Dec 18, 2001)

Thanks s'much.


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## Curufinwe (Dec 31, 2001)

*Orcs*

If Aule can make dwarves , Melkor can make Orcs. I can distinctivly remember it somewhere in the book that it says that Melkor created all the evil things excluding the maiar that followed him of course.


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## bullroarer (Jan 3, 2002)

Aule did make the dwarves....but they had no life or will of their own until Eru gave it to them. I believe that he also gently scolded Aule for attempting to create new life, which was something only Eru was supposed to do. (This is from memory...my Silmarillion copy has been lost for a couple of years and I've yet to replace it)

There's also a reference in LOTR to the creation of Orcs during a conversation between Frodo and Sam; Sam asks Frodo what Orcs eat and drink or whether they can survive on poisons. (or something like that....don't have my copy handy) Frodo tells him that he who made the orcs cannot create...only twist and pervert.

I've always assumed that the orcs were elves who had been twisted through torment.


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## Curufinwe (Jan 3, 2002)

If Elves were tormented into orcs dont you think they would of looked more like evil elves than the orcs do?


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## gil-estel (Jan 3, 2002)

Tis also said in the LoTR and Sil taht the dark power could not create, only mar, as he spent much of his power in trying to destroy the works of the Valar.

For What its worth this lil star thinks that they were one with elves but 000's of years of corruption will take their toll-maybe why each hate each other so much???


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## Grond (Jan 4, 2002)

I just posted this over on the movie thread and thought it might have pertinence here. Forgive me, but I didn't want to type the whole thing over again, so it is copied, verbatim.

The following summary of dialogue should clear up much concerning the Orc question. First off, this (according to Christopher Tolkien) is his best guess as to his father's final words on the origins of the orcs. From Morgoth's Ring, Chapter Myth's Transformed, 

_"...They bred and mutiplied rapidly whenever left undisturbed. So far as can be gleaned from the legends that have come down to us from our earliest days, it would seem that the Quendi had never yet encountered any Orcs of this kind before the coming of Orome to Cuivienen. "_ 

and 

_"...the theory (that orcs originate from Man) remains nonetheless the most probable. It accords all that is known of Melkor, and of the nature and behaviour of Orcs - and of Men. Melkor was impotent to produce any living thing, but skilled in the corruption of things that did not proceed from himself, if he could dominate them. But if he had indeed attempted to make creatures of his own...he would, like Aule, only have succeeded in producing puppets...They hated one another and often fought...they had languages of their own, and spoke among themselves in various tongues...They could be slain, and they were subject to disease; but apart from these ills they died and were not immortal, even according to the manner of the Quendi; indeed they appear to have been by nature short-lived compared with the span of Men of higher race, such as the Edain." _

and 

_"...was my father's final view of the question: Orcs were bred from Men, and if 'the conception in mind of the Orcs may go far back into the night of Melkor's thought' it was Sauron who, during the ages of Melkor's captivity in Aman, brought into being the black armies that were available to his Master whe he returned."_ 

This is much debate and contradiction by the author with himself in this ten page summation by Christopher. But they are all based on passages written by JRRT's own hand. It appears that his final word was that *Orcs reproduced like man and were of man stock.*


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## Curufinwe (Jan 4, 2002)

I much prefer thinking of them like that instead of elves, for elves were always fair, humans were grubby like the orcs.


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## Merry (Jan 4, 2002)

*Are ORCs Immortal?*

If ORCs are a mockery of the Elves and were made by torturing the children of Iluvator, does this mean that they kept their original gifts that were given to them? Such gifts as being immortal, being wise and gifted in art and crafts? Obviously the ORCs were hideous and devoid of beauty but did they have the ability??

Although Melkor changed them from the outside, who changed them from the inside? Why did Eru reject them and not offer them an escape route back to beauty and perfection? Was Eru harsh to abandon them?

Your thoughts please.

(Ps It's good to be back, hope every-one is well!)


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## Telchar (Jan 4, 2002)

Welcome back Merry! 

Posted something about this in the "Orc hygiene & mental health?" thread yesterday..


> They could be slain, and they where subject to diseases; but apart from these ills they died and were not imortal, even according to the manner of the Quendi; indeed they appear to have been by nature rather short-lived compared with the span of Men of higher race, such as the Edain.



I wondered about posting this in another thread yesterday, but found it to be a bit off topic.. But now it's right on topic..


> For Morgoth had many servants, the oldest and most potent of whom were imortal, belonging indeed in their beginning to the Maiar; and these evil spirits like their Master could take on visible forms. Those whose business it was to direct the Orcs often took Orkish shapes, though they were greater and more terrible. Thus it was that history speakes of Great Orcs or Orc-captains who were not slain, and who reappeared in battle through years far longer than the span of the lives of Men.
> Home X; Morgoths Ring p 418


This may have caused some to belive that the Orcs were imortal..


I belive the Quendi that were originally captured by Melkor where given acces to the Halls of Mandos, but I doubt that Iluvatar would give fear to the mockery made by Morgoth, as they were more like beast than the Children of Iluvatar


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## Bombur (Jan 9, 2002)

*Orcs and Trolls*

First of all, this is my first thread and am using it to get to know many of you. Second there have been a few questions I have had about Orcs and Trolls. I want everyone's opinion, though I already have a few ideas myself. So here it goes:

1. Are orcs immortal?

I know that Orcs are corrupted Elves (supposedly) so therefore they may still have the immortality of the Eldalie. Supporting this, indirectly, is a conversation between Gorbag and Shagrat in LOTR Vol. III Book VI Ch. 1: The Tower of Cirith Ungol. I do not have the exact quote, but they mention "The Great Seige" possibly a reference to The Last Alliance's seige of Barad-dur. They speak of this almost as if they were there. Now they may be just refering to a seige by the Gondoreans sometime far later since they do work at the border of Mordor. Then again the Orcs may have lost this ability just like other evil creatures lose certain abilities as their corruption increases.

2. Are Orcs reincarnated?

Another power of Elves, Did the Orcs keep this? It would certainly help explain how they multiply so fast.

3. What exactly are Trolls?

In LOTR, Treebeard makes a few cryptic comments about how the Trolls are corruptions of Ents. Is this mentioned anywhere else?

I know this is a bit long-winded, but I hope this becomes a long thread. So have at it fellow Tolkien-ites


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## Merry (Jan 10, 2002)

First of all, Hullo Bombur!! Welcome to the forum.

I had this exact same question a few weeks ago, I too thought that ORC's may be immortal. Only Telcher replied but there were some good quotes. Check out: 

http://www.THETOLKIENFORUM.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1689

Although the ORC's are a corruption of the Elves, I don't believe that Iluvatar would have allowed them to keep the gifts that he bestowed to his children. I also think that the ORCs could not travel west over the sea so I am sure that they had no privilages.

I also asked why Eru appears to abandon these tortured elves and didn't offer them a return to perfection and the favour of the gods. In Christianity, God provided his son to ransom the world from sin but in Tolkiens world, no provision is made. I find this harsh.......


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## Grond (Jan 10, 2002)

I'll have to look up the thread, but I posted a long dissertation on this very issue not to long ago. For my findings to be relevant, you must be willing to accept some of JRRT's later writings as my quotes come primarily from the HoMe: Morgoth's Ring and The Peoples of Middle-earth. 

In these, Tolkien indicated that orcs were made in mockery of Elves but were of man stock. They were thus not immortal and had the same final destination as man after death (mystery of Mandos). It also stated that orcs had a shorter lifespan than man and gave an explanation as to the logic of how orcs could have appeared shortly after the March from Cuivenien (sp) which is before man appeard.

As it stood, in the Silmarillion (which is also considered a later work of the author), the orcs were made as a mockery of Elves and poointed out that may of the Moriquendi who fled from Orome were captured by Melkor and were probably the "seed-stock" of orcs. I'll try to find my quotes....


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## aragil (Jan 11, 2002)

From The Two Towers, _The Choices of Master Samwise_:

'They would,' grunted Gorbag. 'We'll see. But anyway, if it does go well, there would be a lot more room. what d'you say?--if we get a chance, you an me'll slip off and set up somewhere on our own with a few trusty lads, somewhere where there's good loot nice and handy, and no big bosses.'
'Ah!' said Shagrat. 'Like old times.'


Here's one quote that always gave me the impression that orcs had long life spans. Shagrat certainly seems to be reminiscing about something he lived through, and from what I know of Middle-Earth history there wasn't any prolonged period of time in the third age that an orc would have thought of as good ol' times. That sounds like something more out of the second age, when the initial expansion of Mordor went largely unchecked.

The seige quote (By Gorbag):

'You may well put your thinking cap on, if you've got one. it's no laughing matter. No one, _no_ one has ever stuck a pin in Shelob before, as you should know well enough. There's no grief in that; but think--there's someone loose hereabouts as is more dangerous than any other damned rebel that ever walked since the bad old times, since the great Siege. Something _has_ slipped.'

I'd say that he's definitely talking about the siege of Barad-dur here. In all of Tolkien's works I don't know of any other great Siege in Mordor. Of course, in this case Gorbag doesn't quite use the language that would definitively place him at the siege. Oh well. What I reall do like about this chapter is that it gives us a good look at Orc culture- what their motivations might be, etc. I certainly think that they are different from 'the beasts'. Gorbag is at least able to put some thoughts together fairly quickly and figure out a lot more about what is going on in the wide world than his superiors might want for him to know.

Anyway, I think that the orc mortality question goes with a lot of the discussions regarding how Tolkien was always going back and re-writing his works. Orcs were originaly intended to be corruptions of Elves, and so probably would have had some characteristics in common. However, as time wore on (after the publication of LotR, I believe) Tolkien began to feel that Orcs were more akin to corrupted men. One of his comments in HoME certainly seems to indicate that he was considering the Orcs as corruptions of men, which could have meant that he would then go and revise the passage of the Silmarillion so that this idea would be consistent. Unfortunately the good professor never got the opportunity to go back and do this, so we have Orcs descended from Elves and Gorbag reminiscing about what appears to be the second age.


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## aragil (Jan 11, 2002)

Oops! Sorry Grond- didn't see your post. 'How?' you ask. 'There were only 3 posts on the entire thread!' Yeah, well, maybe I should stop posting at 2:30 am.


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## Grond (Jan 12, 2002)

No prob Aragil. I think one issue that probably bothered JRRT (I know if would have bothered me) was the problem in having Orcs be immortal. If orcs were immortal (given their proclivity for multiplying) they would have overrun Middle-earth in the First Age. I feel that this reason alone would be sufficient to review and revise his position.... but, alas, we'll never know for sure.


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## Bombur (Jan 13, 2002)

I agree that Orcs probably weren't immortal, but since we never see an Orc female (to my knowledge), I thought that Orcish reincarnation would would explain their rapid population increases.


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## Hirila (Jan 13, 2002)

For those who have seen the film:

Do you remember Saruman making the Uruk-hai? These really ugly things. In the LotR it is said he made them out of men and orcs.

And perhaps that is the answer why we never see female orcs.
Perhaps they are "made" in a similar way. (Or at least the first of them were made like that out of some careless elves that came into Morgoths way.)

But on the other hand we don`t know if there don`t exist orc-towns (perhaps far in the north, perhaps deep down under Mount Gundabad). There female orcs may live.


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## Bombur (Jan 15, 2002)

*Orc origins*

I seem to remember that the Elves met the Orcs before they met men. Now I know we do not know exactly when Men came to be but if the Orcs were around before Men then they must be Elves. Wait, here's an interesting thought: What if Melkor was trying to corrupt the Elves he captured into the image of Men that he may have seen in the Ainulindale? What I mean is, maybe Melkor saw a little something about Men in the Ainulindale and he tried to make the Elves like men. Besides, Melkor did not have to use only Elves in his genetic crossbreeding. He may have crossed Elves with Dwarves or some other creature. This is just speculation, though, as I am in way over my head. I haven't finished reading UT and am nowhere near HoME.


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## Úlairi (Jan 16, 2002)

It says in the Silmarillion that when Melkor spread his first shadow over Arda after the Elves were created by Eru Iluvatar that there were fey and fell creatures of Melkor dwelling in places near Elf encampments. When ever an Elf strayed into the darkness, the creatures of Melkor would capture it. There Melkor tortured and marred them into Orcs.


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## Greymantle (Jan 16, 2002)

Grond... I would agree totally if it weren't for the sheer number of times Orcs appear before the coming of Men in the Sil. If Orcs had simply been mentioned, or had theirorigins described, or been counted among the creatures of Melkor, it would be one thing. But the very fact that they are present at so many battles and have such important roles before they could possibly have been bred from Men would lead me not entirely to accept this "after the fact" alteration.
However, I don't see where there is any other answer. The Elvish theory that is generally accepted simply does not work for me, for a number of reasons. But seeing as Melkor could not truly create creatures of his own...
But if this is the case, where did the dragons come from? I don't believe they were either Maiar or earth spirits...though I could be wrong there.
I started this post trying to say something but now I've realized that I really have no idea what I'm trying to say. Finals have fried my brains.


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## Gloer (Jan 16, 2002)

*Men woke up with the FIRST SUN RISE*

There are Orcs fighting against Faenor and Elwe Singollo before this and Fingolfins arrival with the rest of the Noldo led by Fingolfin. And that group arrived with the first sun rise.

My hypothesis:

The Valar are very careful not to tear the world upside down before the Eldar woke because they did not know where they were hidden and supposed to wake. So they only took Melkor captive when the elves were born and located. This leaves us the idea that Elves and men do not just pop up from nowhere. They are actually hidden long before waking up.

So my explanation of Orcs being twisted men and not elves as elves themselves thought is the following.

Manwe and all valar had visions of the song at times - they remembered the future. So the elves were born and Melkor finds them first. He tries to bend them to his will, but they only break and die. My theory is that Melkor remembered that there will be yet another theme after the first theme that must have ment the elves! So he started searching and finally Melkor found out where some of the men were hidden well before their time had come.

He woke them up and twisted them to Orcs. But the eldar nor the valar couldn't think of this since the men had not been born yet. So they thought that Orcs where elven origin and maybe Melkor also spread this lie to make him seem more powerful.


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## fëanáro (Jan 16, 2002)

nice theory gloer, i agree with u, but it is still a hypothesis because we'll never find out. 
though i have a newbie question:

¿what about all the beasts and creatures melkor made before the second theme, when he drew the valar out of middle earth into valinor? ¿how the balrogs and other beasts came to life? ¿where they melkor-made or eru-made?

coz if they're melkor-made, then as melkor created his own theme out of the first great theme all the valar and eru made , melkor could make his own living creatures apart from any theme thought and envisioned by eru, melkor made himself free and thought himself of better greatnes than all the valar and the closer to eru´s greatness.


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## Grond (Jan 16, 2002)

It is clear from the Silmarillion that Melkor could make nothing on his own. Anything he would have attempted would have been much as with Aule and the dwarves, mere robotrons that did as he said but when his thought turned away from them became inanimate again.

The Balrogs are Maia, lesser Ainur as is Sauron, Melian, Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast and the Blue Wizards. The dragons, werewolves, orcs and the other monster creatures were probably something fair in the beginning but Melkor corrupted their spirits and their bodies and changed their basic essence. He couldn't create but he could corrupt.


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## Snaga (Jan 16, 2002)

The main problem with orcs being corrupted elves is that the immortality thing.

Could Melkor twist and corrupt elves to the extent that they lose their immortality?

I'm probably over my head too, but I won't let that dissuade me from some wild speculation 

If I understand it correctly, immortality means two characteristics:
(1) You don't die 'of natural causes' unless you despair of life. Elves having plenty to be thankful for, do not often despair of life. More likely, they get on the first boat going west...

(2) If you are slain, through unnatural causes, you get to spend some time in the Hall of Mandos, and then, all else being equal, you get let out again.

Now looking at these (yes - they're probably not right - please correct me!!!), I would say:

(1) Corrupted elves would despair frequently because their existence is so hateful even to themselves

(2) Obviously lots die in battle, and I bet they are a disease ridden lot etc etc. But I doubt that Mandos lets too many of them back out if they end up in his Hall. I seem to recall that some of the Noldor who rebelled were not let out (????) so I don't think orcs would be.

So the corruption that Melkor enacted could well destroy the immortal nature of the elves he based them on.

Yes I know I'm reaching !


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## Greymantle (Jan 16, 2002)

Someone correct me if I'm wrong here... but if I remember rightly, the only instances in which a spirit leaves Mandos were with Beren and possibly Glorfindel (yes, in my opinion). I don't believe that even Elves could leave of their own will...but hey! I've been wrong before. Many, many times.


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## Úlairi (May 11, 2002)

*The Origins of Orcs*

I am aware that a thread may have been posted on this topic before. But I think it deserves another look. As I am having an interesting debate with Cian on the topic.

Here are a few quotes from the Sil:



> "But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor *little is known of a certainty*. For who of the lving has descended into the pits of Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor? Yet it is held true by the wise of Eressea, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; *and thus did Melkor breed the hideous of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes."
> The Silmarillion Page 58*


* 

Here, it is outlined clearly that Orcs were Elves, the Quendi. In the next quote, Tolkien gets more into a specific race of Elves, the Avari, who are the Elves who refused to join the westward march from Cuivienen.




"...and among them were the Orcs, who afterwards wrought ruin in Beleriand: but they were yet few and wary, and did but smell out the ways of the land, awaiting the return of their lord. Whence they came, or what they were, the Elves knew not then, thinking them perhaps to be Avari who had become evil and savage in the wild; in which they guessed all too near, it is said."
The Silmarillion Page 110

Click to expand...


Take not of the bold section at the bottom in which Tolkien says that the Elves had guessed:




"...all to near..."

Click to expand...


So, was their guess close to the truth, were Orcs really the Elves? Some of you may be thinking that I have answered my own question, however, Tolkien says in The Annals of Aman:




"...orcs are not Elves."

Click to expand...


Now, I too would be inclined to take the opinion of Tolkien himself, and not the Editor of The Silmarillion, Tolkien's son, Christopher Tolkien. However, before Tolkien published The Lord of the Rings he had tried to get The Silmarillion published, therefore Tolkien actually wrote all of The Silmarillion, and his son Christopher had merely edited it. Now, I now that editing can cause quite significant change before a book or column et cetera is published, however, Christopher Tolkien wrote this in the Foreword of The Silmarillion:




"Not only however, does The Silmarillion relate the events of a far earlier time than those of The Lord of the Rings; it is also, in all the essentials of its conception, far the earlier work. Indeed although it was not then called The Silmarillion, it was already in being half a century ago; and in battered notebooks extending back to 1917 can still be read the earliest versions, often hastily pencilled, of the central stories of the mythology. But it was never published (though some indication of its content could be gleaned from The Lord of the Rings), and throughout my father's long life he never abandoned it, nor ceased even in his last years to work on it. In all that time The Silmarillion, considered simply as a large narrative structure, underwent relatively little radical change;..."
The Silmarillion Foreword Page 7

Click to expand...

 

Note the quote:




"...underwent relatively little radical change;..."

Click to expand...


So, if The Silmarillion did not change significantly enough to discredit what has been stated on the 'Origins of Orcs', then, are Orcs really Elves. Has Tolkien contradicted himself in a fashion in which he deemed that Orcs were Elves, whereas he has said specifically that Orcs were not Elves. Or, were quotes such as these...




...little is known of a certainty...

Click to expand...





...the Elves knew not...

Click to expand...


...loopholes for Tolkien to escape contradiction?*


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## Gothmog (May 11, 2002)

There is nothing in the Silmarillion that states for certain that the Orcs were created from Elves. The quotes you find in there leave the question open.



> "But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty. For who of the lving has descended into the pits of Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor? Yet it is held true by the wise of Eressea, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves*, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes." *


*

in this quote you use what you must look at is the way the information is given. Tolkien wrote this in such a way as not to give certain answers.



But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty. For who of the lving has descended into the pits of Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor?

Click to expand...

 So there is no one who can say what happened in the depths of Utumno, so we cannot rely on any reports being true.



Yet it is held true by the wise of Eressea

Click to expand...

This is the opinion of Elves who never went to Utumno and knew nothing of the works of Mekor in respect of the Orcs, they could only guess what had happened.

You also used the following quote.



"...all to near..."

Click to expand...

But you missed out the last part of the Quote,



it is said

Click to expand...

So even this does not prove anything as it is once again only the opinion of some who guess from insufficient information.

The Loopholes were not there to avoid contradiction but to leave open a question that Tolkien himself had not made a final decision about.*


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## Rangerdave (May 11, 2002)

*A very fine hair to split*



> he has said specifically that Orcs were not Elves



This is one of those loaded statements that fill academics with a sense of rapture and students with a sense of dread.

Orcs were not Elves, very good so far. Anyone who looked at an orc could tell right away that it was an orc. If it walks like an orc, talks like an orc, and chews it's own toenails like an orc: it must be an orc. But that does not mean that orc's were not "bred from elves". Just as a German Sheppard is not a wolf, despite the fact that the Sheppards were bred from wolves: so too an orc is not an Elf.

This is purely hypothetical here, but I believe that all the Elves captured by Morgoth either remained Elves or were completely destroyed in the Pits of Utumno (sp?). But who is to say that both the male and female captives were not forced to breed with all manner of vile and villainous creatures. 

Since we have very little first hand knowlidge of what goings on occured under Morgoth's occupation of Middle-Earth before he was chained by the Valar. All manner of atrocities may have come to pass. I would imagine that the ghastly rape of an Elf by either a troll or goblin would produce something rather orc-like. I shudder to think of the outcome if Morgoth had bred Elves to a Balrog. 

So, in a nutshell, the orcs are not Elves, but rather the forced offspring of Elves.

Just a theory. I have no actual proof to back this up, but it has always made sense to me.

RD

ps. for all the orc fans out there, a race that evil does not deserve to be capitalized. Hence the difference between Elves, Men and orcs.


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## Úlairi (May 11, 2002)

*Gothmog:-*



> _Originally posted by Gothmog_
> *There is nothing in the Silmarillion that states for certain that the Orcs were created from Elves. The quotes you find in there leave the question open.*



Yes, I agree with you Gothmog, however, if yu read my post I said:



> _Originally posted by Ulairi_
> *So, was their guess close to the truth, were Orcs really the Elves?*



As you can see, I am unsure of the truth myself Gothmog, so do not be as so hasty that all my threads that I create are based on my opinions and my opinion alone, here, I am asking the question and trying to answer it at the same time if you are capable of reading between the lines. 



> _Originally posted by Gothmog_
> *in this quote you use what you must look at is the way the information is given. Tolkien wrote this in such a way as not to give certain answers.*



Exactimo Gothmog. That is what I believe also. Tolkien himself left the topic open for debate whether in his own mind or the mind of those who had influence on his writings such as C.S. Lewis and the rest of the 'Inklings'. Tolkien left the topic open so that he could conceptually search for the rash and logical answer. Through my thread, I am trying to be inside the mind of Tolkien, to make conceptual searches of my own on the same topic that he must have debated with himself so many years ago. So many people enjoy LotR as a book entirely in itself, as do I. However, if a book fascinates me as much as this, I enjoy getting inside the mind of the author and collaborating with others on the topic. The people of this forum are my guide to finding a logical answer to the solution. 



> _Originally posted by Gothmog_
> *So there is no one who can say what happened in the depths of Utumno, so we cannot rely on any reports being true.*



Yet again you fail to read my post with he depth required to comprehend what I am saying. I am asking a question, not forming an opinion. I will form an opinion when I deem a sufficiant amount of information and educated hypothesis has been given, therefore satisfying myself hopefully knowing that the answer I derive from the insightful posts on the people of this forum will lead me to a logical solution solving the problem that is at hand. 



> _Originally posted by Gothmog_
> *This is the opinion of Elves who never went to Utumno and knew nothing of the works of Mekor in respect of the Orcs, they could only guess what had happened.*



Need I say anymore Gothmog?



> _Originally posted by Gothmog_
> *But you missed out the last part of the Quote,*



Yes, I did, and not without reason. As this part of the quote is easily dismissable as it is of little relevance. I will prove why. Here, I will ask you a question Gothmog in which I know has only one answer. The quote again:



> "...it is said."



Said by whom? Who said this? The wise of Eressea? The Elves? No, said by Tolkien, the author of the book. He said that this is so, and so it is (spoonerism). Tolkien was speaking his ideas through the charactres. Gothmog, are you familiar with the cliche:



> "To read between the lines."



This is not a personal attack, but this is what you need to do to comprehend what Tolkien is saying by reading between the lines. Tolkien was projecting his own ideas through the Elves. Without Tolkien, the wise of Eressea, the Avari, nothing exists. Comprehend now?



> _Originally posted by Gothmog_
> *The Loopholes were not there to avoid contradiction but to leave open a question that Tolkien himself had not made a final decision about.*



Gothmog, in this case, you have hit the nail right on the head and I congratulate you for it. As I have said, Tolkien left the 'Origins of Orcs' concept for later times so that he could 'conceptually search' for the solution for this daunting problem. 

*Rangerdave:-*


This is one of those loaded statements that fill academics with a sense of rapture and students with a sense of dread. 

Orcs were not Elves, very good so far. Anyone who looked at an orc could tell right away that it was an orc. If it walks like an orc, talks like an orc, and chews it's own toenails like an orc: it must be an orc. But that does not mean that orc's were not "bred from elves". Just as a German Sheppard is not a wolf, despite the fact that the Sheppards were bred from wolves: so too an orc is not an Elf. 

This is purely hypothetical here, but I believe that all the Elves captured by Morgoth either remained Elves or were completely destroyed in the Pits of Utumno (sp?). But who is to say that both the male and female captives were not forced to breed with all manner of vile and villainous creatures. 

Since we have very little first hand knowlidge of what goings on occured under Morgoth's occupation of Middle-Earth before he was chained by the Valar. All manner of atrocities may have come to pass. I would imagine that the ghastly rape of an Elf by either a troll or goblin would produce something rather orc-like. I shudder to think of the outcome if Morgoth had bred Elves to a Balrog. 

So, in a nutshell, the orcs are not Elves, but rather the forced offspring of Elves. 

Just a theory. I have no actual proof to back this up, but it has always made sense to me. 

RD 

ps. for all the orc fans out there, a race that evil does not deserve to be capitalized. Hence the difference between Elves, Men and orcs.



> _Originally posted by Rangerdave_
> *This is one of those loaded statements that fill academics with a sense of rapture and students with a sense of dread.*



IMO, I am a student of Tolkien in my own fashion, however, the topic itself does not daunt me RD, it is finding the solution to the problem at hand which is the daunting part as we are already no closer to solving the problem since I began the thread. 



> _Originally posted by Rangerdave_
> *Orcs were not Elves, very good so far.*



RD, you can't say that. Yes, Tolkien did draw the conclusion in _The Annals of Aman_ that Orcs were not Elves, but no Tolkien Scholar has disregarded _The Silmarillion_ as one of Tolkien's most *serious* pieces of work. Post-_The Annals of Aman_ time, Tolkien may still have been contemplating on the idea, and here's your proof. _The Annals of Aman_ were published *before* _The Silmarillion[/B], not after. So, why would Tolkien disregard an idea in one book that he published and publish the fact that is *was true* later (via his son) in The Silmarillion?




Originally posted by Rangerdave
*Anyone who looked at an orc could tell right away that it was an orc. If it walks like an orc, talks like an orc, and chews it's own toenails like an orc: it must be an orc.*

Click to expand...


I am a Creationist at heart and I always will be, but lets say (for arguments sake) that Evolution is true. Apes looked like apes, they walked like apes, they talked (grunted) like apes, and ate their bananas like an ape, well, then it must be an ape? Right? Wrong! Amazingly, apes they became humans! This could be the same way with Orcs, and you and I both know that this cannot be proven or vice versa. 




Originally posted by Rangerdave
*But that does not mean that orc's were not "bred from elves".*

Click to expand...


Very clever RD, you managed to get yourself out of a pickle. Tolkien did say:




"...and thus did Melkor *breed* the hideous race of Orcs..."

Click to expand...


Notice the word 'breed', not 'Orcs *were* Elves, but something to the effect of: 'Orcs were *bred* from Elves'. May I congratulate you also RD for bringing us one step closer to finding what I have referred to as:




Originally posted by Ulairi *"...a logical solution..."*

Click to expand...


So, if Orcs weren't Elves but were 'bred' from Elves, how was this done? Well, RD has provided us with a logical theory. My mother is threatening me at the moment and I must go before she blows her top, and I mean this literally. I will be back to post the remainder of what I was going to say and I apologise for any inconvenience._


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## Gothmog (May 11, 2002)

Ulairi, If you comprehended as much as you think you do you would realise that I was answering your question stating that there is no definate answer. So you may theorise as much as you like and come to an answer that seems good to you but it will only be your opinion. the part of the quote you decided to toss out was in fact a very important part. It was the one means by which Tolkien kept the question open, with out that part it becomes a definate answer while with that part in, it becomes an opinion of the charaters. But since you obviously do not wish to have the answers I give I will in future refrain from cluttering your threads with my obviously inane chatter.


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## Tar-Elenion (May 11, 2002)

Ulairi wrote:


> Yes, Tolkien did draw the conclusion in The Annals of Aman that Orcs were not Elves, but no Tolkien Scholar has disregarded The Silmarillion as one of Tolkien's most serious pieces of work. Post-The Annals of Aman time, Tolkien may still have been contemplating on the idea, and here's your proof. The Annals of Aman were published before The Silmarillion, not after. So, why would Tolkien disregard an idea in one book that he published and publish the fact that is was true later (via his son) in The Silmarillion?



JRRT never published the Annals of Aman, nor were they published before The Silmarillion. The Annals of Aman were not published until 1993. They were written ca. 1951; the 'alter this Orcs are not Elvish' was not part of the Annals, but a later addition to the typescript (ca. 1958).


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## Úlairi (May 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Gothmog_
> *Ulairi, If you comprehended as much as you think you do you would realise that I was answering your question stating that there is no definate answer.*



I know this, and I agree with you, there are arguments on both sides. I comprehended very well what you were saying Gothmog. And, as I have said, I agree with you. There is no definite answer.



> _Originally posted by Gothmog_
> *So you may theorise as much as you like and come to an answer that seems good to you but it will only be your opinion.*



But it will be formed upon the *valid* (and my In stress the word) opinions of others. The reason I will form my own opinion on the topic is because as you have said yourself:



> _Originally posted by Gothmog_
> *...there is no definate answer.*





> _Originally posted by Gothmog_
> *the part of the quote you decided to toss out was in fact a very important part. It was the one means by which Tolkien kept the question open, with out that part it becomes a definate answer while with that part in, it becomes an opinion of the charaters.*



Exactly right Gothmog. I dismissed it as irrelevant as I saw no point in being redundant. I had already said that Tolkien had left the topic 'open for discussion' with quotes such as:



> "...little is known for a certainty..."



It was saying the same as other quotes before it, which is why I dismissed it. Comprehend?



> _Originally posted by Gothmog_
> *But since you obviously do not wish to have the answers I give I will in future refrain from cluttering your threads with my obviously inane chatter.*



No need to get esoteric on me Gothmog. Your opinions are extremely valid, and if I might say, without them, this thread would probably not exist. So, I very much wish for you to continue posting in my thread for as long as you deem. 



> _Originally posted by Tar-Elenion_
> *JRRT never published the Annals of Aman, nor were they published before The Silmarillion. The Annals of Aman were not published until 1993. They were written ca. 1951; the 'alter this Orcs are not Elvish' was not part of the Annals, but a later addition to the typescript (ca. 1958).*



Thankyou for that Tar-Elenion. In the debate I was having with Cian she mentioned the book, but not when it was published and I jumped to false conclusions, and I apologise. I have heard of nor have read the book myslef. However, despite it was an addition to the book, the argument on the 'Origins of Orcs' not being Elvish still stand. So, back to my previous question. Were Orcs really Elves? In _The Annals of Aman_ it says they were not, but in _The Silmarillionm_ it says that they were. So, what is the correct answer?


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## Walter (May 12, 2002)

_Orcs...are nowhere clearly stated to be of any particular origin. But since they are servants of the Dark Power, and later of Sauron, neither of whom could, or would, produce living things, they must be "corruptions"_Letter 144, April 25, 1954

Ulairi, a word to the wise: "Si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses" or "Wisdom usually grows in direct relation to the awareness of the own ignorance"...


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## Tar-Elenion (May 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> Thankyou for that Tar-Elenion.


You're welcome.


> In the debate I was having with Cian she mentioned the book,


Cian is a _HE_, not a she. Where is this debate taking place?


> but not when it was published and I jumped to false conclusions, and I apologise. I have heard of nor have read the book myslef.


The 'Annals of Aman' is not a book. It is rather an extended 'Tale of Years' (JRRT was rewritting and updating the 'Annals of Valinor' found in HoME 5). CRT drew from this, in part, when preparing _The Silmarillion_(which was incomplete) for publication. The 'Annals of Aman' were published in _Morgoth's Ring_ (HoME 10).


> However, despite it was an addition to the book, the argument on the 'Origins of Orcs' not being Elvish still stand. So, back to my previous question. Were Orcs really Elves? In _The Annals of Aman_ it says they were not, but in _The Silmarillionm_ it says that they were. So, what is the correct answer?


If this query is directed at me, the best I can say is that JRRT never came to a firm conclusion on this matter. CRT presents various of his father's essays on the origin of Orcs in _Morgoth's Ring_ (HoME 10). In these various essays JRRT speculates that Orcs are variously 'descended' from corrupted beasts (animals) or Men or Elves or Maiar or a mixture of some or all of these. Again he never seems to have come to a firm conclusion as to their origin. The one I prefer has Orcs primarily coming from Elves and later Men, with a Maiarin strain accounting for some of the greater Orc Captains (sometimes known as 'Boldogs').


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## Úlairi (May 13, 2002)

The deabte is taking place in 'The Guild of Scholar's Hall' in 'The Prancing Pony'. As for Cian, I apologise, the name was suggestive to me that you were female, my apologies!


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## Cian (May 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Tar-Elenion _
> Again he never seems to have come to a firm conclusion as to their origin. The one I prefer has Orcs primarily coming from Elves and later Men, with a Maiarin strain accounting for some of the greater Orc Captains.



Which I prefer as well Tar E. I do like the Maiar orc-formed Captains esp.

In "tPPony" I "tossed in" some info gleaned from MR (along with the note "Alter this ..."). Indeed I didn't textually explain "AoAman" in the thread, emphasizing rather (or trying to) the simpler 'conclusion' that Tolkien was yet reflecting on 'orc-origins' in addition to what is read in the published Silmarillion (plus example from an essay). 

I find the essay example (of which I quoted from CT's commentary rather) interesting indeed, but the nature of the essays don't exactly fill one with confidence that Tolkien had made up his mind for good here Imo.

And yes, as Tar E said, Cian (Kee-in) is a he. My name is a 'real world' name of Celtic derivation if anyone cared for further info on it. No problem


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## Úlairi (May 15, 2002)

My apologies once more. I guess deductive logic is not always the best option. Btw Cian, a good post.


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## Walter (May 16, 2002)

Well it appears most evident that: "Orcs ARE NOT Elves", but JRRT seemed to avoid definitive statements about the "Origin of Orcs". There sure exist a few - some of them are contradictional, but none of those seems "definitive" to me. The most generally approved theory is, that Orcs were of elvish origin, transformed, corrupted or whatever. Tolkien also stated that _"some were probably derived from men"_ and _"But always among them ... there must have been numerous corrupted minor spirits who assumed similar bodily shapes"_. Oh - and trolls and beasts were also taken into consideration it seems. So - we have a lot of possibilities to choose from, don't we? 

As mentioned in previous posts there is an interesting section in the HoME (Morgoth's Ring - Myths transformed; Chapter VIII) about the Origin of Orcs. It seems Tolkien at some point for several reasons was no longer satisfied with the Elvish origin of Orcs, hence he wrote several essays on this topic with different approaches. The "conclusive" statement from CT reads as follows: 



> This then, as it may appear, was my father's final view of the question: Orcs were bred from Men, and if 'the conception in mind of the Orcs may go far back into the night of Melkor's thought' it was Sauron who, during the ages of Melkor's captivity in Aman, brought into being the black armies that were available to his Master when he returned.
> But, as always, it is not quite so simple. Accompanying one copy of the typescript of this essay are some pages in manuscript for which my father used the blank reverse sides of papers provided by the publishers dated 10 November 1969. These pages carry two notes on the 'Orcs' essay: one, discussing the spelling of the word Orc, is given on p. 422; the other is a note arising from something in the essay which is not indicated, but which is obviously the passage on p. 417 discussing the puppet-like nature inevitable in creatures brought into being by one of the great Powers themselves: the note was intended to stand in relation to the words 'But the Orcs were not of this kind'.



It seems JRRT wanted the Orcs to be derived from Men, but he also was aware that with this, he was contradicting earlier statements in the LotR (already published) and the Sil ("ready to be published", but he had not yet found someone really willing to publish it) and furthermore this theory did not seem to go very well together with the timetable of the FA (hence the twist that Sauron bred the majority of them anyway)...

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Edit: had I read the other thread in TPP before, I would have noticed that someone has posted this 2 days before me ... who? ... Cian...- I should like to say "of course" 

What did I say a few posts ago (this time to myself): Si tacuisses...

Cheers


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## Úlairi (May 17, 2002)

A well conceived post. I cannot disagree Walter, and I must get a copy of _Morgoth's Ring_.


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## Beren Erchanion (Jun 14, 2002)

Well, well, well. I didn't read all of your quotes and stuffs 'cause I'm sure to know them all. A long time ago (6 months)I started a poll about the first-born concept and everybody was against my concepts and ideas because of two things:-1: I'm french and Tolkien use a too complicate vocabulary, and his a «jewel» of the english language so I have read everting about JRR in French. So that quotes stuff is a bit boring for me and i cannot do some. That makes it hard for me debate on such complicate subjects as the first born concept and the origins of the orcs. 2: I'm always proposing my ideas like: « There's a F*ck*ng big hole in the story over there but we got enough info to fill it. Me, I would filled it that way...» and I think it's the better way to find the truth about it.(But peoples called me a liar or told me that I was using false argument) Because be sure of someting: when you're a writer you don't let a such big hole in your story if the reader don't have the enough element to fill it. it doesn't have tobe clear because that would've been stupid to read: «Eru said to Manwë that orcs were Elves.» But knowing that Melkor cannot create life by itself, and that Orcs are fearful little slaves that SEES IN THE DARK (an elven power) is quite enough to guess what happen to those elves in Utumno. It's a bit like this Tommy problem. I've red in the news paper an interview with JRR about the mystery of Tom Bombadil. Tolkien answered to the repoter:«It's quite funny to put a charcter that you don't tell who he really is (what race he is in the case of Tommy) when you know the answer. Most writer use it to put an aura of mystery around the novel.(There is a lot of movies based on this concept.) It,s like giving to the reader a task he have to figure who the character really is or he can just let it undiscovered or just don't care. But there must be a real answer otherwise it's a bit embarassing to make your character evoluate in the story espacially in fairy tales. thats what I did with Tom Bombadil.»(I'm not quoting because I'm transalating, i've read the article in french)
so i'm not afraid to say this: Orcs were elves, Tom is a retired maia/vala(except the tasks there is no distinctions),Gandalf is NO MORE a maia and Balrogs are the real first born. So if you want a debate about it please don't come and quote me two me two pages of the sil or said "your wrong because ther is no answer" cause like JRR said« there must be an answer » 

_________________
P.S. I'm not angry, but I'm back


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## Úlairi (Jun 14, 2002)

Beren, that was the most conjectural post I have ever read on any topics of Tolkien.


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## ¤-Elessar-¤ (Jun 15, 2002)

ok, I don't know if anyone has said this, but has anyone considered that possibly they can both be true? The statements posted in the question pointed that the orcs were elven in origin, but they were transformed by the evil art of Melkor into orcs. The orcs multiplied, and new orcs decended not from elves, but orcs themselves. So they were not nessesarily ever elves. Its kindof like the Adam and Eve thing, they were related, but thousands of years later you are not nessisarliy related to the next person you see walking down the street. um.... crap....lost my train of thought....ok... so, perhaps the quote that says orcs are not elves was referring more to LoTR, a time so far past that of Melkor's corruption that there were no longer any similarities, no longer any elven qualities among the orcs.... yea....


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## Snaga (Jun 15, 2002)

Unpalatable though it is if you accept Tolkiens assertion that Morgoth couldn't create life, then elves look like a probable bet. Believe me, I hate the idea. Ugh.... elves!

But consider: we fought the elves in the Battle Under Stars, we were bred in the pits of Utumno. Men hadn't yet awoken. Conclusion: We weren't bred from Men.

Personally I think Tolkien is just lying, and Melkor being the big boss just created us in his own image.


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## ¤-Elessar-¤ (Jun 15, 2002)

Oh really? Why do you think Ilutivar gave control of Arda to Manwe, lord of all? Because Melkor was an Idiot! He was hot headed and rather full of himself. He would had easily been defeated what, two or three times before the whole Silmaril thing? The council of doom just took pity on the fool! Ha!


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## Rangerdave (Jun 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ¤-Elessar-¤ _
> *The council of doom just took pity on the fool! Ha! *



The Council of Doom. hmmmmm? wasn't that Lex Luthor's gang of super-baddies in the old Super Friends cartoon?

No wait, I remember, that was the Legion of Doom. My bad.
RD

 My God that was a bad joke. Sorry.


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## Edhel-dûr (Jun 16, 2002)

In Myths Transformed we can read this:

"They could be slain, and they were subject
to disease; but apart from these ills they died and were not
immortal, even according to the manner of the Quendi; indeed
they appear to have been by nature short-lived compared with
the span of Men of higher race, such as the Edain."

I think it´s a very important quote because it denies an elvish origin of orcs.We know that elves are by nature inmortal and we know that only Eru can change the nature of the people.This quote certains that orcs are of mortal nature, and doesn´t speak of any change in his nature so we can secure that they allways have been mortal, and in conclusion we can eliminate a possible elvish origin of the orcs.

For more information about this topic you can visit this link(the problem is that is written in Spanish XD):

http://www.elfenomeno.com/tolkien/faq/ver_faq.php?id=5

Congratulations to the webmasters of the Tolkien Forum,i think it´s a very interesting web.

Greetings from Spain.


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## Ancalagon (Jun 16, 2002)

> I think it´s a very important quote because it denies an elvish origin of orcs.We know that elves are by nature inmortal and we know that only Eru can change the nature of the people.



Alternatively, if you dilute an elven gene pool enough, blend it with the seed of a beast/animal and create a mongrel breed such as Orcs, you can assume that many of the inherent traits of the original sample will be eradicated. 



> but of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty. For who of the living has descended into the pits of Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor? Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes. For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar; and naught that had life of its own, not the semblance of life, could ever Melkor make after his rebellion in the Ainulindalë before the Beginning: so say the wise.



What I find key to this is the fact that Orcs, bred before the coming of Man were in the form, shape appearance of both Elves and Men. Nothing else on Middle-Earth at this time was similar in shape to the Children of Iluvatar, other than the Children themselves. So, how can Orcs not be in origin Elves, if Melkor cannot make even the semblence of life?

Yes they are Elven in origin, however, by the description of Orcs, being that of elven/human stature, the only possiblity is that Elves were bred with Melkors beasts, possibly wolves, dogs or other fell creatures. The essence here is the fact that they reproduce; so in reality, any creature that can spawn offspring can mate with these unfortunate few. Over time, the horror of these creatures becomes so that they are no better than the animals they were bred with, and in turn bred among themselves. The real point is that Melkor cannot create life, he could not design or shape, only plunder and rape that which he had access to; in this case The Quendi.

Orcs are absolutely Elven in origin.


Welcome to The Tolkien Forum Edhel-dûr, good to meet you


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## Mormegil (Jun 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Edhel-dûr _
> *In Myths Transformed we can read this:
> 
> "They could be slain, and they were subject
> ...



Nice theory. But it has holes in it. 
Yes Elves are immortal and orcs are not. But that doesn't mean that orcs are not descended from Elves. If what was suggested above, that Elves captured by Melkor were forced to breed with creatures such as Trolls or Goblins of some kind, then the offspring would be Half Elven.
We know that in the cases of Elf-Human offspring, the offspring can be mortal, such as Elros, and (maybe) the princes of Dol Amroth. 
So, That quote does not prove that orcs are not descended from Elves. The immortality could have been lost in breeding.


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## Mormegil (Jun 16, 2002)

*Puts on an unhappy face* 

Anc got there before me. With a better post than mine.


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## Edhel-dûr (Jun 16, 2002)

Mmmm,thanks for your wellcome dear friends.Excuse me for my low level of english,well,you´ll have noticed i´m from Spain XD.

I think that the last Tolien notes about this "problem" tendes to eliminate the orc origin.
I want to see the orcs like an independent race corrupted by Melkor instead of a corruption of an existent one.I believe it is the best way to find the solution to the "problem".In fact,in the Letters,we can read that the orcs are an independent race,a preexistent race wich was corrupted by the arts of Melkor.
The passage of the Silmarillion showed above this reply gets into the topic..."it is said that",and i think that isn´t decisively.

What do you think about orcs like an independet en preexistent race?

Nobody speaks spanish? XDXD.

Greetings from Spain.


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## Ancalagon (Jun 16, 2002)

Hola......well, that's about the height of it Trust me, I have enough problems getting to grips with English myself, especially after a night on the town, afterwhich I am fluent in 'washing machine!'

I do not agree with Orcs being a pre-existing race, the only way this can happen is if they are maia in origin, who chose to assume this form when they came to Middle-Earth. Aside from Dwarves, the only other human/elven type creature are Elves themselves. If Melkor cannot give life to any being, create any being such as Elves, then how can we explain a creature with reproductive organs similar to Elves and Men? The only possible explanation is that they are Elvish in origin.


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## Edhel-dûr (Jun 16, 2002)

Mmmm,well,i really think orcs are preexistent because of Tolkien in his letter 153 says:

"I have represented at least the Orcs as pre-existing real beings on whom the Dark Lord has exerted the fullness of his power in remodelling and corrupting them, not making them"

That´s why i think they can be an independent race in wich he put his power for corrupting them.(In several fragments he says that they are a race)

In the same way that Melkor found the first the elves,he could have find this race and corrupted them into orcs.

Greetings to all.


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## Ancalagon (Jun 16, 2002)

I am a great believer in original concepts, initiative, gut-feeling and the like. I also think, you shouldn't believe everything you read in the press or the bible. Likewise, Tolkien replies to a lot a questions but doesn't always gives an answer, most likely because he doesn't know or is being made to think about it long after he wrote about it. 

That Orcs are Elves origin is a certainty. Orcs are a race, they are not the Firstborn, nor are they the Secondborn. The only other race are Dwarves, who don't figure in this problem. They were not created (creation being the actual giving of life) by Melkor, nor were they created by Eru. The only other power able to create was Aule, who created Dwarves, they of course were granted existence by Eru after their creation (creation as in being manufactured) but were put away in their box until Christmas

The only other option here is that Orcs were Maia in origin but there is absolutely no evidence for this, neither can it be discounted. However, this reverts back to the question of reproductive organs, which I feel is the key to this whole question. The only humanlike race that were equiped with this capacity were Elves; how then do Orcs obtain this if there is no-one else there to create them? Maia did not form an orderly queue to become Orcs surely, they would have at least had the gumption to aim a little higher!


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## Edhel-dûr (Jun 16, 2002)

Well,let me make you a question XD.

If orcs are elves corrupted(i´m not sure at all XD) how can you explain his high rate of reproduction?......another change introducted by Melkor?.....

Greetings.


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## Ancalagon (Jun 16, 2002)

Elves can reproduce, we know that. The basis of my arguement is what they were bred with over time to become Orcs. If they were bred with a type of animal or beast, it can be assumed that the ability of this animal/beast to produce has accelerated the natural ability of the original elf, who is now become Orc.

Phew, if you can understand that post; more power to ya


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## Edhel-dûr (Jun 16, 2002)

Mmmm,genetically is impossible to mix an animal race with a human one isn´t it? XD.

Greetings.


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## ¤-Elessar-¤ (Jun 16, 2002)

ok, the quote says that orcs were 'pre-existing, real beings'. Could that not be meant to say that they were elves, which were pre-existing, real beings? Also, the rather rapid reproduction (wow...too many 'r' words) of the orcs could be attributed to the supposed animal breeding, seeing as how animals tend to breed at a much higher rate than elves, who were immortal and bore few children.

--edit----
didn't see the last post  

Elves aren't human , and, even if they were the same in that aspect, there is no saying that dark magic couldn't have helped in that catagory. Melkor's magic throws out most claims of science and logic.


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## Ancalagon (Jun 16, 2002)

> Mmmm,genetically is impossible to mix an animal race with a human one isn´t it?



But is Tolkien aware of that when he is writng about Orcs? Even now, I am sure it is not beyond the realms of imagination to think of scientists breeding human/animal hybrids. So what then is a Valar able to do through sorcery?


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## Edhel-dûr (Jun 16, 2002)

But i think that we must have in acount that the silmarillion is the elvish tradition transmited by the numenoreans.I want to say that it gets more into the fantastic or mythological legends and that´s why its fundaments are short.

I hope you´ll understand me XD.

Greetings.


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## ApplCobbler (Oct 3, 2002)

*Of Orcs and Elves*

If Orcs are elves that listened to Morgoth and followed him, and later became Orcs...

Are Orcs immortal??


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## YayGollum (Oct 3, 2002)

I always liked to think so, but I have no real idea. I thought that maybe that was how the Great Goblin from The Hobbit got to be in charge, having lived for a really long time, I guess. I don't know. It wouldn't be fair for the poor orcs to die soon. *sniff* oh well. Maybe they died of old age because Morgoth couldn't make them as good as elves. Maybe somebody smart will come along.


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## TheFool (Oct 3, 2002)

I think Orcs would be similar to 'men' in that their 'longevity' would become diluted - probably happened a lot quicker with orcs though due to the use of non-too-pure breeding stock!

Maybe the first few generations of orcs were immortal, or had _really_ long life spans?


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## Ceorl (Oct 3, 2002)

In LoTR Shagrat and Gorbag had a long conversation during which they mentioned 'the good old days' since there is no other eplanation for it was assume they must have been talking about the second age when Sauron had almost supreme power over ME. This proves almost beyond doubt that orcs are indeed immortal or at least have the gift of longevity. 

This very concept however brings up a new idea; In one of his letters Tolkien states that Elves when they die receive a summons from Mandos, they can however refuse that summons. Doing this though would almost destroy any strength they have to refuse a similar call from Melkor. This much we know for certain, however: If orcs are immortal then we assume that this is where they go but is Morgoth able to 'reincarnate' the dead orcs like the Valar can with Elves? This would explain how orcs are able to replenish their numbers so quickly.


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## Anamatar IV (Oct 3, 2002)

maybe the 1st orcs who were straight from elves were immortal but when the orcs bred and became less and less elves they became die...able.


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## TheFool (Oct 3, 2002)

Is it likely that orcs could actually survive for very long periods of time given the places they live/hang out in? Does anyone know of any main 'evil' characters who were actually orcs?


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 5, 2002)

With the time Melkor loses his power,the greater evil he is the less powerful Valar he becomes.The same is with Sauron.
I suppose that would be the same and for orcs.Because of their lives,their evil nature,they loses their strenght with the years.I doubt they're immortal.I suppose they can live a long time but they have lost the opportunity to live forever,because of their evil hearts and souls.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Oct 5, 2002)

I believe that the orcs are completely immortal. Why would they lose their long life? Sauron and Melkor were immortal, but their evil did not make them lose their immortality - it only gave them less strength. Yes, I know that Maia, and Valar are different than orcs, but I think that the same can apply to any creature.

I really like the idea that the orcs, since they were elves once, are able to refuse the summons of Mandos and be "reincarnated" by Melkor. Thanks for sharing, Ceorl!


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## Ceorl (Oct 6, 2002)

Since when does being evil lose you your immortality?

It is an inherent part of; you cannot slow become mortal because you are evil.

What I think you are referring to is Morgoth Bauglir's loss of power. This was due to him spreading it amongst his servants and tools. He drained his power to send out lies and malice among his foes.

An orc would not lose immortality because it is evil. (If I am wrong and you have proof of this happening then please tell me so I can slap myself silly)

It is my belief also that orcs are immortal.


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## TheFool (Oct 6, 2002)

I suppose the orcs could be immortal, yes. It's just that their life expectancy is a LOT less than your average elf.... just look what they did to 'poor old Ufthak' in Shelob's Lair (that bit cracks me up every time!  )


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## Nenya Evenstar (Oct 6, 2002)

Are you refering to me, Ceorl?  If I'm not mistaken what I tried to say in my post was exactly what you said but just not in nearly as good of words.... But anyway, I'm just a wee bit confused as to if you were meaning me. Oh well!


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## Ceorl (Oct 6, 2002)

No, No Narya I was meaning Gil, sorry. He reffered to Morgoth and Sauron losing power.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Oct 6, 2002)

Oh, ok! Just checking!


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## ApplCobbler (Oct 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Nenya Evenstar _
> *Oh, ok! Just checking!  *



Hmmm, did you notice he called you "Narya" and not "Nenya"?


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## Nenya Evenstar (Oct 6, 2002)

Yes, I noticed, but I knew who he meant and so didn't push it.  As far as I know it could have been a mistake or anything. He said what he meant, and I didn't see any reason to point that out - the communication was there.


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## Ceorl (Oct 8, 2002)

Lol

I sincerely apologise for that mistake *Nenya*.

No offense intended really, although Narya was the more powerful....

just joking.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Oct 8, 2002)

> No offense intended really, although Narya was the more powerful....



No offense taken!  Narya? What! More Powerful?


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