# Elf Ringwraiths?



## ZehnWaters (Nov 29, 2021)

So what are we thinking happens to an Elf if they'd been enslaved via one of the Three? Would they be ringwraiths just like Men? Would they be something magnitudes greater? We know the dwarves resisted direct domination and could only be turned into greedy, grasping monsters. The Elves have great willpower (most of the time), would they resist? What would it even look like?

Addendum: Dwarves sided with Sauron during the Last Alliance (per the book). While Sauron might not have been able to enslave the Dwarves, he was still a masterful orator. Did he simply play on the the greed the Rings stoked in them?
Why didn't Gollum become a Ringwraith? Was it do to having the One Ring? Did the Ringwraiths only become shadows because another controlled them (Sauron had the One for hundreds of years before losing it)?


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## Alcuin (Nov 29, 2021)

ZehnWaters said:


> Dwarves sided with Sauron during the Last Alliance (per the book).


I’m at a loss to recall that any of the Houses of the Dwarves sided with Sauron during the Last Alliance. Could you please cite the passage to refresh my memory? 



ZehnWaters said:


> So what are we thinking ha7ppens to an Elf if they'd been enslaved via one of the Three? Would they be ringwraiths just like Men?


The Rings of Power, to my understanding, gave Sauron a “back door” into the minds of their wielders, something akin to malware or spyware in a computer. He could clearly influence their thinking: Bilbo and Frodo experienced a great deal of this even when Sauron did not know where or what kind of creatures they were. All the Great Rings were made by Elves for Elves with Sauron’s assistance (in disguise as “Annatar”, save the Three), and only later given to Dwarves and Men. They could not be “wraithified”: that was a fate that befell Men who bore the Rings, a product of the Rings’ extending Men’s lives and so perverting their nature: Elves were naturally longevial with Arda, and those that had lived in Valinor were already aware of things that passed unseen by mortals in the Shadow world. I think instead they would have fallen deeper and deeper under Sauron’s influence, until like the Ringwraiths, he dominated their wills. Until then, he would become aware of any efforts to counter his actions _so long as they continued to use their Rings_: that is why they removed them as soon as they became aware of who he was and his betrayal of them, thus evading his trap; though he still invaded and conquered Hollin.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Nov 29, 2021)

Alcuin said:


> I’m at a loss to recall that any of the Houses of the Dwarves sided with Sauron during the Last Alliance. Could you please cite the passage to refresh my memory?
> 
> 
> The Rings of Power, to my understanding, gave Sauron a “back door” into the minds of their wielders, something akin to malware or spyware in a computer. He could clearly influence their thinking: Bilbo and Frodo experienced a great deal of this even when Sauron did not know where or what kind of creatures they were. All the Great Rings were made by Elves for Elves with Sauron’s assistance (in disguise as “Annatar”, save the Three), and only later given to Dwarves and Men. They could not be “wraithified”: that was a fate that befell Men who bore the Rings, a product of the Rings’ extending Men’s lives and so perverting their nature: Elves were naturally longevial with Arda, and those that had lived in Valinor were already aware of things that passed unseen by mortals in the Shadow world. I think instead they would have fallen deeper and deeper under Sauron’s influence, until like the Ringwraiths, he dominated their wills. Until then, he would become aware of any efforts to counter his actions _so long as they continued to use their Rings_: that is why they removed them as soon as they became aware of who he was and his betrayal of them, thus evading his trap; though he still invaded and conquered Hollin.


I think he's referring to this passage from The Silmarillion:


> From Imladris they crossed the Misty Mountains by many passes and marched down the River Anduin, and so came at last upon the host of Sauron on Dagorlad, the Battle Plain, which lies before the gate of the Black Land. All living things were divided in that day, and some of every kind, even of beasts and birds, were found in either host, save the Elves only. They alone were undivided and followed Gil-galad. *Of the Dwarves few fought upon either side; but the kindred of Durin of Moria fought against Sauron.*
> 
> OF THE RINGS OF POWER AND THE THIRD AGE
> in which these tales come to their end


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Nov 29, 2021)

I'll add that some early drafts say there are "many elfwraiths in the world", along with "goblinwraiths", but this idea was soon abandoned, as were a number of others -- such as the Ring being "not very dangerous". (  )


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## Olorgando (Nov 30, 2021)

ZehnWaters said:


> So what are we thinking happens to an Elf if they'd been enslaved via one of the Three?


Sauron forged his One Ring with one purpose, and one only: specifically to be able to dominate the wearers of the Three Great Elven Rings.
The rather sparse information in Appendix B for the Second Age runs:

c. 1600 Sauron forges the One Ring in Orodruin. ... *Celebrimbor* perceives the designs of Sauron _{emphasis mine}_
1693 War of the Elves and Sauron begins. The Three Rings are hidden.

So was Celebrimbor still in possession of all of The Three when Sauron forged The One? Or was only he, through his long association with "Annatar", able to perceive Sauron's design? When were The Three given away by Celebrimbor, to Galadriel, Gil-galad and Cirdan?

Anyway, it would take other ring-bearers than the ones Celebrimbor gave the Three Rings to for them to be ensnared. From the older generation of Fëanorians, perhaps, from whom Celebrimbor was descended. Though his dad and uncles were so monomaniacally focused on the Silmarils, they might have sniffed at his "trinkets" ... Perhaps Dark-Elves, Eöls or Maeglins of the later age would have been better targets - but Sauron would first have to have captured The Three, and then bequeathed them to such Dark Elves, I don't see Celebrimbor doing anything of the sort.



Alcuin said:


> ... “wraithified”: that was a fate that befell Men who bore the Rings, a product of the Rings’ extending Men’s lives and so perverting their nature ...


Agreed. But long before any of them became “wraithified”, it was an effect of the Great Rings on humans only that they became invisible when wearing one. At least I don't recall any mention of the Dwarf lords becoming invisible when they wore theirs. And from the chapter "The Mirror of Galadriel", it seems the wearers of The Three were able to do the reverse: not *they* became invisible while wearing their rings, rather they seem to have been able to make their *rings* invisible to all with very few exceptions - Frodo as bearer of the One Ring upon the quest being one of them.


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## ZehnWaters (Dec 1, 2021)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> I think he's referring to this passage from The Silmarillion:


That is correct.


Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I'll add that some early drafts say there are "many elfwraiths in the world", along with "goblinwraiths",


Hm.


Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> but this idea was soon abandoned, as were a number of others -- such as the Ring being "not very dangerous". (  )


lol Yes. Or Gollum voluntarily giving up the ring.


Olorgando said:


> Sauron forged his One Ring with one purpose, and one only: specifically to be able to dominate the wearers of the Three Great Elven Rings.


I thought Sauron didn't know about them. Were they just made without his input or involvement?


Olorgando said:


> Anyway, it would take other ring-bearers than the ones Celebrimbor gave the Three Rings to for them to be ensnared. From the older generation of Fëanorians, perhaps, from whom Celebrimbor was descended. Though his dad and uncles were so monomaniacally focused on the Silmarils, they might have sniffed at his "trinkets" ... Perhaps Dark-Elves, Eöls or Maeglins of the later age would have been better targets - but Sauron would first have to have captured The Three, and then bequeathed them to such Dark Elves, I don't see Celebrimbor doing anything of the sort.


Morwë in this case.

This is for my The Silmarillion AU. When Melkor flees east he sends Sauron out to the Dwarves, Elves, and Men to corrupt them through contrivance. Sauron appears first to the Dwarves as Annatar Aulendil. He deceives them into thinking MELKOR is Aulë, their maker, and persuades them into his service. He then ensnares the Tatyarin Avari with promises of knowledge in crafting (continuing his persona as Annatar Aulendil). The Tatyarin Avari make the rings under Sauron's influence (purposefully designing them for Dwarves, Elves, and Men; still in 7, 3, 9 proportions, respectively). The Avari are less wise and powerful so I see them being ensnared. The men in the East are still under the authority of Melkor from when he first appeared to them (as I rendered the Tale of Adanel canon).

It's interesting you bring up Eöl; Tolkien toyed with the idea of making him a Tatyarin Avari.


Olorgando said:


> Agreed. But long before any of them became “wraithified”, it was an effect of the Great Rings on humans only that they became invisible when wearing one. At least I don't recall any mention of the Dwarf lords becoming invisible when they wore theirs. And from the chapter "The Mirror of Galadriel", it seems the wearers of The Three were able to do the reverse: not *they* became invisible while wearing their rings, rather they seem to have been able to make their *rings* invisible to all with very few exceptions - Frodo as bearer of the One Ring upon the quest being one of them.


True, but we also know that those Elves who didn't leave Middle-Earth eventually faded as their spirits overcame their bodies. Would this be considered a form of wraithification? Could this be what happens to an Elf too long under the influence of a ring? Or maybe it's the opposite; their bodies turn into a kind of decayed zombie (if anyone knows Star Wars, think Darth Sion). After all, the rings' purpose was preservation. It would be "poetic" to have the Elves and Men face different fates with the rings as they face different fates in existence. Elves having their bodies preserved thanks to the rings, and men having their spirits anchored to the world while fading visibly.


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## Olorgando (Dec 1, 2021)

ZehnWaters said:


> I thought Sauron didn't know about them. Were they just made without his input or involvement?


Just checked the published Sil, section "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age". This is a paperback second edition with a preface by Christopher Tolkien dated 1999, the relevant passages begin on page 344.

"Now the Elves made *many* rings; but secretly Sauron made One Ring to rule *all* the others, and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly to it and to last only so long as it too should last." _{the bold italic emphasis above is mine}_

OK, Sauron did not forge the One Ring to dominate only the Three Great Elven Rings, but all of the Rings of Power created by the Elves. Those would apparently include at least the Seven for the Dwarves, the Nine for mortal Men, and the Three for the elves, possibly more. About the Three the relevant passage is on page 345.

"But the Elves fled from [Sauron]; and three of their rings they saved, and bore them away, and hid them.
Now these were the Three that had last been made, and they possessed the greatest powers. Narya, Nenya, and Vilya, they were named, the Rings of Fire, and of Water, and of Air, set with ruby and adamant and sapphire; and of all the Elven-rings Sauron most desired to possess them, for those who had them in their keeping could ward off the decays of time and postpone the weariness of the world. But Sauron could not discover them, for they were given into the hands of the Wise, who concealed them and never again used them openly while Sauron kept the Ruling Ring. Therefore the Three remained unsullied, for they were forged by Celebrimbor alone, and the hand of Sauron had never touched them; yet they also were subject to the One."

So Sauron did know of them, however he came by this knowledge.


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## ZehnWaters (Dec 1, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> Just checked the published Sil, section "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age". This is a paperback second edition with a preface by Christopher Tolkien dated 1999, the relevant passages begin on page 344.
> 
> "Now the Elves made *many* rings; but secretly Sauron made One Ring to rule *all* the others, and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly to it and to last only so long as it too should last." _{the bold italic emphasis above is mine}_
> 
> ...


Ah. It seems he didn't know about them at first but was made aware of them sometime after their forging.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Dec 1, 2021)

The Elves became aware of the Ring as soon as he put it on, so it would seem that he'd become aware of their rings at the same time.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Dec 1, 2021)

As above, so below, as the Hermetics say? 😁


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## Olorgando (Dec 2, 2021)

ZehnWaters said:


> True, but we also know that those Elves who didn't leave Middle-Earth eventually faded as their spirits overcame their bodies. Would this be considered a form of wraithification? Could this be what happens to an Elf too long under the influence of a ring? Or maybe it's the opposite; their bodies turn into a kind of decayed zombie (if anyone knows Star Wars, think Darth Sion). After all, the rings' purpose was preservation. It would be "poetic" to have the Elves and Men face different fates with the rings as they face different fates in existence. Elves having their bodies preserved thanks to the rings, and men having their spirits anchored to the world while fading visibly.


That's a thought: in both cases, with Men *and* Elves, the Great Rings did things to them that were *against their nature*.
Yes, by quite a bit of JRRT's writing, Elves who remained in Middle-earth were destined to become wraiths of a sort (after a *very* long time), so that was *according* to their nature. As I quoted from "Of the Rings of Power ..." above:


Olorgando said:


> "... Narya, Nenya, and Vilya, they were named, the Rings of Fire, and of Water, and of Air, set with ruby and adamant and sapphire; and of all the Elven-rings Sauron most desired to possess them, for those who had them in their keeping could *ward off the decays of time and postpone the weariness of the world*. ..."


That would seem to be against their nature, not to become wraiths (one can read it like this, though wraithing is not explicitly referred to).

At any rate, Elves becoming wraiths *because* of Great Rings seems out of the question in this scenario.

And also, the Nazgûl turning into wraiths is against their nature of Men, but it turns them into a kind of perverted form of Elves - if in a very much shorter time period than would be natural for Elves.


ZehnWaters said:


> Why didn't Gollum become a Ringwraith? Was it do to having the One Ring? Did the Ringwraiths only become shadows because another controlled them (Sauron had the One for hundreds of years before losing it)?


Possibly. But I think that all of these rings being referred to as Rings of Power, they were most effective against the power-hungry, as all of the Nazgûl are described as having been great in some way in their pre-rings time. With Hobbits, the rings found very little to work on, as their power-hunger was minuscule compared to the Big Folk (even Lotho "Pimple" would hardly have entertained any military adventures outside the Shire). And a point JRRT has made repeatedly, that the Hobbits are far tougher and resilient than Big Folk, perhaps by an order of magnitude or more. We don't know how old Sméagol was when he got hold of the One Ring in 2463 TA. He lost it to Bilbo in 2941 TA, 478 years later - but survived for another 78 years without it, so at 556 plus unknown age when finding it he certainly tops even Elros by a hefty margin!


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## ZehnWaters (Dec 3, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> That's a thought: in both cases, with Men *and* Elves, the Great Rings did things to them that were *against their nature*.
> Yes, by quite a bit of JRRT's writing, Elves who remained in Middle-earth were destined to become wraiths of a sort (after a *very* long time), so that was *according* to their nature. As I quoted from "Of the Rings of Power ..." above:
> 
> That would seem to be against their nature, not to become wraiths (one can read it like this, though wraithing is not explicitly referred to).
> ...


Thank you. That's what I was trying to say but couldn't seem to find the words.


Olorgando said:


> Possibly. But I think that all of these rings being referred to as Rings of Power, they were most effective against the power-hungry, as all of the Nazgûl are described as having been great in some way in their pre-rings time. With Hobbits, the rings found very little to work on, as their power-hunger was minuscule compared to the Big Folk (even Lotho "Pimple" would hardly have entertained any military adventures outside the Shire). And a point JRRT has made repeatedly, that the Hobbits are far tougher and resilient than Big Folk, perhaps by an order of magnitude or more. We don't know how old Sméagol was when he got hold of the One Ring in 2463 TA. He lost it to Bilbo in 2941 TA, 478 years later - but survived for another 78 years without it, so at 556 plus unknown age when finding it he certainly tops even Elros by a hefty margin!


Hm. I was just toying with the idea of different kinds of men being made wraiths in this new scenario (We know the Hobbits don't show up in history until the 3rd Age. Men were born in the East. If Melkor moved to the East, and sent Sauron to enslave the people, and Sauron used rings, it's entirely possible one might have been given to a Hobbit).


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## Boffer Balsashield (Dec 23, 2021)

ZehnWaters said:


> Thank you. That's what I was trying to say but couldn't seem to find the words.
> 
> Hm. I was just toying with the idea of different kinds of men being made wraiths in this new scenario (We know the Hobbits don't show up in history until the 3rd Age. Men were born in the East. If Melkor moved to the East, and sent Sauron to enslave the people, and Sauron used rings, it's entirely possible one might have been given to a Hobbit)



Possibly - but only once, I imagine! After seeing that hobbits don't respond the way he wants to his rings, he'd leave them alone (or try to exterminate them). Then when the dwarves didn't respond to the rings the way he intended either, I bet he thought "Dammit, not again!!" 

Seriously, I doubt the hobbits would have attracted Sauron's attention. He'd have probably viewed them as not worth his time, since he couldn't manipulate them much/easily. I think his lack of recognition to seeing Pippin in the Palantír backs up the idea that Sauron wasn't familiar with them.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Dec 29, 2021)

ZehnWaters said:


> So what are we thinking happens to an Elf if they'd been enslaved via one of the Three?


I'm pretty sure the Three owners would never mind-controlled by the One Ring due to no Sauron's involve during their production, written in the Similarionquoted from here
索倫控制的眾戒指都被他扭曲了，由于他曾參與鑄戒過程，它們被下過咒詛，因此扭曲甚易，所有擁有戒指的人到最後都被戒指出賣了。These mandarin verses mentioned that all the Rings under Sauron's control were twisted, as they're cursed, thus will get twisted easily, and all their owners were betrayed by them at last.



ZehnWaters said:


> Why didn't Gollum become a Ringwraith? Was it do to having the One Ring? Did the Ringwraiths only become shadows because another controlled them


I'm pretty sure in general, transformation into Ringwraiths was only one of the method of Sauron's mind-control, as the quote I provided that Sauron would only "twisted" the owners for sure but not always making them Ringwraiths instead, OFC it's another matter that Gollum was during his progress of his "Ringwraith's mutation". lol


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 9, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> We don't know how old Sméagol was when he got hold of the One Ring in 2463 TA. He lost it to Bilbo in 2941 TA, 478 years later - but survived for another 78 years without it, so at 556 plus unknown age when finding it he certainly tops even Elros by a hefty margin!


Sorry to necromance this thread.
Assuming Sméagol was 12 when he found the Ring, and assuming it had a 1/10 age reduction (as the 3 did), this would still make Gollum 137.8 years aged (assuming he resumed regular aging without the Ring, but DIDN'T regain the years put off by owning it). That's still...rather remarkable.


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## Olorgando (Sep 9, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> ... and assuming it had a 1/10 age reduction (as the 3 did), ...


Ehwot? The Three were held by Elves, until Cirdan gave Narya to Mithrandir - a disguised Maia ...
I don't quite get how any kind of reduction in ageing could be noticed in any of the bearers of The Three.
Is this in NoMe? I've read it through once, so not nearly often enough.


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 9, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> Ehwot? The Three were held by Elves, until Cirdan gave Narya to Mithrandir - a disguised Maia ...
> I don't quite get how any kind of reduction in ageing could be noticed in any of the bearers of The Three.
> Is this in NoMe? I've read it through once, so not nearly often enough.


Elves age. They may not DIE of aging, but they age. More importantly, the things AROUND them age. I don't remember if this was only discussed in the NoME but we do know that they were made for "preservation".


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