# Gwindor



## Confusticated (Jun 25, 2003)

Well folks, was Gwindor an idiot, and if so, why?

And what is your opinion of him in general?

I like him very much and do not think he was any more of an idiot than most others. Will explain more later.


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## Arvedui (Jun 25, 2003)

Some of Gwindor's actions might seem foolish, but he cannot be judged by his actions without looking at what he went through.
And just before he died, he showed more wisdom than most, so I am drawn between the first two options. I would wish there was one option in between 

I'll go for the second one!


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## Ithrynluin (Jun 25, 2003)

I must say I haven't even noticed Gwindor (so to speak) - that's why I added the last option to the poll. His character just hasn't made any impression on me - for good or for bad.


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## Arvedui (Jun 25, 2003)

If one hasn't noticed Gwindor, why bother about this thread/poll?


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## Theoden_king (Jun 25, 2003)

I think he was a little foolish but this can be said about most people, so I will vote for the second option


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## BlackCaptain (Jun 25, 2003)

I can't quite remember his character... It's been a while since I've read the Sil... I guess this is another becon to me telling me that I should read it...


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## Inderjit S (Jun 25, 2003)

He was the idiot that led the charge against Angband in the Nirnaeth and came between Turin and Finduilas.


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## Confusticated (Jun 25, 2003)

> 'Hear the words of the Lord of Waters!' said they to the King. 'Thus he spoke to Círdan the Shipwright: '"The Evil of the North has defiled the springs of Sirion, and my power withdraws from the fingers of the flowing waters. But a worse thing is yet to come forth. Say therefore to the Lord of Nargothrond: Shut the doors of the fortress and go not abroad. Cast the stones of your pride into the loud river, that the creeping evil may not find the gate.'
> Orodreth was troubled by the dark words of the messengers, but Túrin would by no means hearken to these counsels, and least of all would he suffer the great bridge to be cast down; for he was become proud and stern, and would order all things as he wished.





> Then Gwindor said to Túrin: 'Let bearing pay for bearing! But ill-fated was mine, and vain is thine; for my body is marred beyond healing, and I must leave Middle-earth. And though I love thee, son of Húrin, yet I rue the day that I took thee from the Orcs. But for thy prowess and thy pride still I should have love and life, and Nargothrond should yet stand a while. Now if thou love me, leave me! Haste thee to Nargothrond, and save Finduilas. And this last I say to thee: she alone stands between thee and thy doom. If thou fail her, it shall not fail to find thee. Farewell!'



Do you believe these words of Gwindor?




> Then Beleg told him of his own errand in Taur-nu-Fuin; and Gwindor sought to dissuade him from his quest, saying that he would but join Túrin in the anguish that awaited him. But Beleg would not abandon Túrin, and despairing himself he aroused hope again in Gwindor's heart; and together they went on, following the Orcs until they came out of the forest on the high slopes that ran down to the barren dunes of Anfauglith.



Do you believe Gwindor's words here?

Came between Turin and Finduilas?

Now Didn't Turin come between them and against Finduilas's will?

Gwindor told Finduilas that unions between man and elf would only be allowed for high reasons. Was he not right about that? Finrod tells Andreth the same, and look how rare these unions are. Or was Gwindor wrong to tell Finduilas these things, and if so why?

I know you think he was idiot for his haste at Nirnaeth, but he was in rage. Why does this make him an idiot? Because he was so enraged, filled with wrath, that he did not take the best course of action? How is this different than Feanor's oath, getting himself surrounded in haste to come to Morgoth, and exile of the Noldor? I use Feanor as an example because I know Inderjit thinks very highly of him and I would like to know his opinion on this.


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## Arvedui (Jun 26, 2003)

> Gwindor told Finduilas that unions between man and elf would only be allowed for high reasons.



I find this rather interesting.
Would a union between Túrin and Finduilas have done anything to save Túrin from the curse of Morgoth?
Would that have counted as a high reason?


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## Rangerdave (Jun 26, 2003)

Gwindor.....

wasn't the little annoying pointy-eared imp/troll thing in the Master's of the Universe movie?


I'm sure Courtney Cox would like to forget that one.


RD


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## Inderjit S (Jun 26, 2003)

> I know you think he was idiot for his haste at Nirnaeth, but he was in rage. Why does this make him an idiot? Because he was so enraged, filled with wrath, that he did not take the best course of action? How is this different than Feanor's oath, getting himself surrounded in haste to come to Morgoth, and exile of the Noldor? I use Feanor as an example because I know Inderjit thinks very highly of him and I would like to know his opinion on this.



He led a charge without waiting for Maedhros. Maedhros was supposed to attack Morgoth from the East and Fingon to snare him from the west--that was the military plan---you do not go against the military orders of your superiors esp. when your charge is bound to end in tragedy. Sure, his brother had been killed, but is that a excuse? I mean consider this, when Argon died at Drengist did Fingon or Turgon go crazy? When Fingon was hewed down by Gothmog did Turgon attempt to charge his opponenents? I'm sure plenty of Elven siblings were killed but constraint is a important asepct of ones pysche, and this was what Gwindor was lacking and led to the death of many Elves.

You cannot compare this to Feanor--he was under no command, and he was proud, free-willed and virile (sorry couldn't resist, but SEVEN children! ) you must also look at in the context of what happened. Having your brother slain, was sadly, the norm. in war ravaged Beleriand but Feanor was the first Elf, in Aman, to ever lose his mom ,and on top of that he lost his dad, who he prized above everything and his Silamril's, his pride and joy were stolen.



> Would a union between Túrin and Finduilas have done anything to save Túrin from the curse of Morgoth



Yes-read the quote that Nom gave and he also wouldn't have married his sister, one of the worst aspects of the curse. Finrod's words are interesting. Turin and Finduilas love each other but never get together because they're too dumb to express their feelings in wanting to rip off each others clothes and get freaky (Or since this is Tolkien, to express their love for each other and beget many children), Aegnor supposedly didn't get together with Andreth because she was a miserable co...err..because there was war in Beleriand and he had no hope in the war, and as _Laws and Customs_ tells us, Elves tend not to marry in times of war.


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## Arvedui (Jun 26, 2003)

> Yes-read the quote that Nom gave



Well, that is sort of exactly what I did. And I also read that part in the Sil the other day.
But my question was a bit more rethorical (sp?): Would it _really_ save Túrin from the curse, or was this just something Gwindor was speculating about?

Sorry for not being too clear on this one (either ) 

But to your other points:
If what you mention makes Gwindor an idiot, then how many idiots were there in the First Age? 
If that was idiotic, then the Sil is filled with idiots, considering their actions. Even Fëanor. And his sons. And all the Noldor...


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## Confusticated (Jun 26, 2003)

I don't disagree about this breaking the strategy, and being bad for that. But there is more to it, and there is not enough reason for me to think Gwindor was an idiot.



> By ill chance, at that place in the outworks stood Gwindor of Nargothrond, the brother of Gelmir. Now his wrath was kindled to madness, and he leapt forth on horseback, and many riders with him; and they pursued the heralds and slew them, and drove on deep into the main host.



But we can also look at it this way: Morgoth's Army knew that Fingon and Hurin and all them were in the hills hiding, and Morgoth sought to pull them out and take them down. Now when Gwindor jumped the gun, did everyone else have to follow? They are a guilty as he in falling into the trap. They did not come forth for Gelmir, so why Gwindor? Maybe it is battle ethics thing?

I say they followed him but...

'and many riders with him' not 'many riders after him'... Maybe?

But you excuse Feanor because he was the first in Aman to lose his mother and because he had lost his father on top of that. Finarfin who had the most wise counsel of the bunch didn't even go to Middle-earth and he had lost his father too. Fingolfin only followed Feanor because he didn't want to leave his people to Feanor's counsel, Fingon wanted to go, and his words to Feanor before Manwe. He knew it was foolish to rush off after Morgoth, slaying the Teleri all because of haste, and for what? Was Morgoth going anywhere? Would he not have been there a few months or years later? All this folly because of Feanor's burning hatred for Morgoth and desire for revenge. And why did Feanor die? We know why... because in his madness he rushed on to find Morgoth and kill him, and ended up too far ahead of his people and surrounded by balrogs. How is this different than what Gwindor did? Was it Feanor's strategy to go at Morgoth alone? If so, it was a fools one. If not, then he broke strategy or had no strategy. Having no strategy is as bad as breaking one. Feanor wasn't acting out of reason but hatred and fey wrath.

Now you use Argon's death and his brother's reaction to compare with Gelmir's death and Gwindor's reaction. This is not a fair comparison.

Gwindor did not just lose it when he saw his brother fall in battle. Gwindor lost it when his brother who had been missing (probably assumed dead, or at least a PoW that would never be seen again) since the Bragollach was brought out as a prisoner and dismembered amid a taunting army, unarmed and without a chance in hell of escape.

But during battle, people become filled with wrath, and in battle is okay to do so. Unforunately this didn't happen in battle, it happend before it, and a reaction that many might have had in battle was bad because the battle hadn't started yet? Wasn't it still the same human (or elf) reaction?



> I'm sure plenty of Elven siblings were killed but constraint is a important asepct of ones pysche, and this was what Gwindor was lacking and led to the death of many Elves.


Gwindor is an idiot because he caused the death of many elves, but Feanor is otherwise?

His psyche? Was he weak minded? Sure didn't seem it, after he escaped after 17 years of thralldom that lessend his body (keeping in mind that the escaped slaves usualy wandered like zombies in the wild). His counsel was wise too, was it not?

If Gwindor had a weakness it was that his heart couldn't take the way his brother was used by Morgoth. Unlike Feanor Gwindor lost it for a bit at a critical moment, whereas Feanor had just lost it. What do you say of Feanor's psyche?

Onto something else...

Quenta Silmarillion (HoME V):


> Therefore Morgoth, seeing that they wavered led forth the Herland of Fingon that he had wrongfully taken as prisoner, and he slew him upon the plain, and sent back the others with his head. Thereupon the wrath of Fingon was kindled to flame, and his army leaped forth...



Inderjit I think you haven't read Vol V, but tell me if I miss a later writing.

The next thing Tolkien writes about the initiation of the Nirnaeth battle is what we find in the Grey Annals and no more?

Grey Annals (HoME XI):


> But by ill chance across the water stood Gwindor Guilin's son, and he indeed against the will of Orodreth had marched to the war with all the strength that he could muster because of his grief for his brother. Therefore his wrath [struck out: could no longer be restrained, but] was kindled to a flame, and the men of Nargothrong sprang over the steam and slew the riders, and drove then on against the main host.



What do you make of it? Sounds a little different than CRT put it in the Sil: 'Now his wrath was kindled to madness, and he leapt forth on horseback, and many riders with him...'?

Certainly Gwindor was not alone in this.





> _Arvedui_
> Would a union between Túrin and Finduilas have done anything to save Túrin from the curse of Morgoth?
> Would that have counted as a high reason?


Had this union happend, then I imagine much good (more than the saving of Turin) would have to have came of this eventually, since it will only have been allowed for a high prupose. Look at the size of what came of the other man + elf, and even Maia + Elda unions.



> _Rangerdave_
> Gwindor.....
> 
> wasn't the little annoying pointy-eared imp/troll thing...



Thought you were talking about The Silmarillion for a second there.



> _Inder_
> Aegnor supposedly didn't get together with Andreth because she was a miserable co...err..because there was war in Beleriand and he had no hope in the war, and as Laws and Customs tells us, Elves tend not to marry in times of war.


Yes he was loyal to his family and a great warrior against Morgoth, but he also did not want to have her put to shame in aging, so Finrod says, along with telling Andreth about these unions being fore high purposes of doom.

Why did Finduilas stop loving Gwindor? In years Andreth never stopped loving Aegnor, and he would never marry, or even leave Mandos because of this.

'miserable co...err' 

You are probably just kidding? or is there a bit of truth?

She was bitter, but can you blame her? In her eyes she was not good enough for Aegnor who she truly loved, and would always love but never be with. In her eyes she was of a lowly race who had been jerked over by the powers. I can only hope that Finrod's words to her were eventually of much comfort and assurance.

Finduilas's little crush on Turin? Or untrue love for Gwindor? 

If she truly loved Turin this could break her heart eventually and maybe she too would have become like Andreth, Surely you don't think Andreth was always so bitter?


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## The-Elf-Herself (Jun 26, 2003)

I thought Gwindor was just...Gwindor. Yet another fateful, tragic figure involved in various fateful, tragic things. I did think it was kind of rotten of Finduilas not to stick by him. I mean, sure he's aged and messed up, but if she really loved him it wouldn't matter. I always thought that maybe the affection was mostly on his side, especially since she found her heart 'turned against her will' to the new handsome lord of the Edain. Poor guy. I mean, not that I truly blame Finduilas, but it does seem against the whole 'steadfast elves' concept. I mean, sure then is she and Turin really loved each other, then why did he go ahead and not tell her, and go on and marry his own sister?(albeit unknowingly). Was that just a part of his whole tragic fate thing? Aegnor didn't have a problem waiting, neither did Andreth. Hmmm, I always hated Finrod in the Athrabeth. Seemed terribly unfair that Aegnor and Andreth could get married just because their doom wasn't high enough. It's like "ooops! Sorry, you weren't supposed to fall in love. Not on the agenda, just your own hearts being evil on you." Funny, Mithrellas wed Imrazor, even though THAT wasn't sanctioned. Made me think that maybe Tolkien just didn't like elven men marrying human woman for some weird reason. I mean, we have five cases of elven woman falling in love with human men, but only one of it working the other way around. Oh, sorry for maybe ranting there, that's one of my pet peeves.


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## Beleg (Jun 26, 2003)

*Gwindor: King of Foolishers*

Nom posts a Quote from Grey Annals, HOME IX. 



> But by ill chance across the water stood Gwindor Guilin's son, and he indeed against the will of Orodreth had marched to the war with all the strength that he could muster because of his grief for his brother. Therefore his wrath [struck out: could no longer be restrained, but] was kindled to a flame, and the men of Nargothrong sprang over the steam and slew the riders, and drove then on against the main host.



Nom has something further to say concerning this Quote, 



> What do you make of it? Sounds a little different than CRT put it in the Sil: 'Now his wrath was kindled to madness, and he leapt forth on horseback, and many riders with him...'?
> 
> Certainly Gwindor was not alone in this.



I would firstly like to comment on the last part, "Certainly Gwindor..."

From HOME V, The Lost Road, 



> The companies of Nargothrond, such as Orodreth suffered to depart to the aid of Fingon, were led by Gwindor son of Guilin, a very valiant prince, and they were in the forefront of battle; and Gwindor and his men burst even within Angband's gates, and their swords slew in the halls of Morgoth.



In this passage Gwindor is mentioned as the leader of the group of Nargothrondians. 
Since we have nothing further to nullify this claim, I will treat it as Canon. 
A leader or captain is held responsible for the acts of those under his command. The minnows don't act of their own choice but act when their leader commands or calls. In every case the first move is of the leader's. Such would have also happened here. Gwindor in his foolish wrath and pride would have leapt up and the Nargothrondians would have nothing else but to follow him or defy his command. 
Infact he would be held responsible for the demolation of the whole group, since It was his lead, that the other's followed. 


On the second part, 

"Sounds a bit different from the way CST put..."

We have CT's explaination in the commentry of the respective passage, 



> There now appears the final link in this element of the nar_rative: the captured herald (see commentary on §222) slaughtered in provocation on the plain of Fauglith (QS §11) disappears and is replaced by Gelmir of Nargothrond, Gwindor's brother, who had been taken prisoner in the Battle of Sudden Flame. It was Gwindor's grief for his brother that had brought him from Nargothrond against the will of Orodreth the king, and his rage at the sight of Gelmir's murder was the cause of the fatal charge of the host of Hithlum. I have described the evolution of the story in IV. 180.




Let's trace the Evolution in IV. Of the shapping of Middle Earth. 



> _Of the Shaping of Middle Earth, IV, Quenta_
> Whereas in S (as emended, $11 note1) it is only said that 'Orodreth because of Felagund his brother will not come', there now appears in Q the small company out of Nargothrond who went to the war under the banners of Finweg (Fingon) 'and came never back, save one', the leader is Flinding son of Fuilin, who comes out of the old Tale of Turambar and the Lay of the Children of Hurin, and who is thus given a fuller history before he fled from the Mines of Melko to meet Beleg in the Forest of Night. In the tale as in the poem (see III. 53) it is only said that he had been of the people of the Rodothlim (of Nargothrond) and that he was captured by Orcs. By later change in Q (note 7) he becomes Gwindor son of Guilin. But it is notable that although the wild onrush of the Gnomes of Nargothrond, that carried them even into Angband and made Morgoth tremble on his throne, was led by Flinding/Gwindor,his heroic fury had as yet no special cause: for the herald of Finweg/Fingon who was murdered on Dor-na-Fauglith in order to provoke the Elves of Hithlum to attack Morgoth's decoy force is not named.*The next and final stage was for the her- ald to become Gelmir of Nargothrond, Gwindor's brother, who had been captured in the Battle of Sudden Flame: it was in-deed grief for the loss of Gelmir that had brought Gwindor out of Nargothrond against thewill of Orodreth (The Silmarillion p. 188). Thus Flinding/Gwindor, devised long before for a different story, ends by being, in his earlier life, the involuntary cause of the loss of the great battle and the ruin of the king-doms of the Noldor in Middle-earth.



I guess this pretty much sums it up. 
Whatever the reason be, It was Gwindor who marred the pre-planned moves of Noldor and was the cause of the ruin that is called Nirneath. 

Concern for his brother is no solid reason to start a war pre-hand, on whose outcome the future of Beleriand depend. 
A very very foolish and costly move on Gwindor's part. 


***

Originally Posted by Nom.



> If Gwindor had a weakness it was that his heart couldn't take the way his brother was used by Morgoth.



If Gwindor had a weakness then It was that he assumed too much and too quickly and couldn't contain his anger. Both of those are not good traits. 
He presented both these traits on atleast two occasions. 


Originally posted by Nom.



> Why did Finduilas stop loving Gwindor?



Heart matter's are not one's own to decide. 
Besides It has been said on numerous occasions that Gwindor was valiant...and being a Noldor, would be handsome too...
would have a certain sex appeal for Finduilas...and that sex appeal would be destroyed or eliminated after his return from years of thralldom. 
That would be a physical reason...but offcourse that doesn't sum or provide a valid reason for why Finduilas' heart was turned from him. 
We can only say that no one can interpret the matters of heart and love, allthough I would daresay that Finduilas and Turin would have made a perfect couple. 
If I recally correctly I posted the evidance in a thread I started on this topic. 



Originally Posted by Nom, 



> Now Didn't Turin come between them and against Finduilas's will?



Huh???

Let me offer a Quote from Grey Annals, HOME IX, War of the Jewel's. 



> Then the heart of Finduilas was turned from Gwindor (who because of his pains in Angband was half crippled) and her love was given to Túrin;





Oh and have I said that I agree with Inderjit on this one?
Sure have. 



Originally posted by Nom, 



> Was he not right about that?



What was the "high reason" behind the marriage of Nimloth's maiden and the Lord of Dol Amroth? 



> Or was Gwindor wrong to tell Finduilas these things, and if so why?



Gwindor was CERTAINLY wrong in telling Finduilas about Turin's true identity. 
In this way he betrayed his friend, while Turin never betrayed him.


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## Confusticated (Jun 27, 2003)

> _The_Elf_herself_
> Aegnor didn't have a problem waiting, neither did Andreth. Hmmm, I always hated Finrod in the Athrabeth. Seemed terribly unfair that Aegnor and Andreth could get married just because their doom wasn't high enough. It's like "ooops! Sorry, you weren't supposed to fall in love. Not on the agenda, just your own hearts being evil on you."



I agree with all of this except that I never hate Finrod. But it was very unfair.




> _The_Elf_Herself_
> Made me think that maybe Tolkien just didn't like elven men marrying human woman for some weird reason.


I wonder about this too. Even in the case of Melian and Thingol. Was always a man who wed a lady that was 'higher' than him. Peeves me a little as well.


Beleg, I am aware of CT's commentary in HoME IV.

I was just pointing how the differences in wording can be interpreted. I guess you do bring up a good point about him still being the leader, and that he had to be followed for this.

I do remember you giving your opinions on why Finduilas stopped loving Gwindor. I wanted to know what Inderjit, or maybe others would say.

As for Gwindor's words to Finduilas about these unions being allowed only for high reasons of Doom, I just want to know if people believe he spoke the truth.

Now you say:


> _Beleg_strongbow_
> If Gwindor had a weakness then It was that he assumed too much and too quickly and couldn't contain his anger. Both of those are not good traits.


I don't really know what he assumed? 

I don't think he was thinking at all, but just acting out of rage.
Sure, becoming overwhelmed with anger and losing reason is a bad thing, but how can we say it is a bad trait when everyone has a breaking point? It is only human and no one is above it.

Gwindor did not rush out to battle because he was an idiot or fool, he did so because he'd lost it. An idiot would be one who literally _thought_ it best to do this, not one who was in such pain and anger that he could not help himself.

Now, how think Gwindor was a fool for letting anger get the best of him, but not think the same of Feanor? I ask this to anyone who thinks Gwindor was an idiot but admires Feanor greatly and thinks he was not an idiot.

This talk of Gwindor's 'psyche'. Again, what about Feanor's?

Gwindor losing his head at that exact moment did contribute to more deaths in battle, but did Feanor not? Wasn't he the cause of the Noldor being cursed to fight alone for an age against Morgoth? Guys like Finrod dying!


I think Gwindor was right to tell Finduilas about Turin's identity, because he loved her and probably knew there was no way Turin would have gave him permission to tell... and she did need to know. 

In fact I think Finduilas was wrong for telling Turin that Gwindor told her.



> Heart matter's are not one's own to decide.



I agree. But elves usually love one for life (as The_Elf_Herself has said), I am left with the idea that this would generally apply to cases like this, where one elf had been marred in some way... the love would remain. The love of elves is very spiritual thing.

That Finduilas's heart turned like this may be an indication that there was a reason for it.

However, I am still uneasy about her change of heart. Maybe because I like Gwindor so much and don't especially like Turin... maybe that is part of the reason.

Gwindor had a good heart, and even after thralldom he was revived, he helped Beleg and then helped Turin much on the journey to Irvin, and then took him to Nargothrond. In dying he gave Turin the best advice he had, and in life he did the same for Finduilas, which in my opinion is quite a bit considering his love no longer loved him, but his friend instead! 

This guy got a bad deal, and he remained good and kind through it all, broken in body but never fully in spirit.



> Concern for his brother is no solid reason to start a war pre-hand, on whose outcome the future of Beleriand depend.
> A very very foolish and costly move on Gwindor's part.



It was not just concern for his brother, it was rage at the horror of is brother's death (which I explained more in my previous post, when I pointed out how this differs from losing a brother in battle) and yes it did effect the outcome as things happend. It was costly but not foolish. But if costly and foolish must go hand in hand for you then tell me how much of a fool Feanor was.



> _Beleg_strongbow_
> In this way he betrayed his friend, while Turin never betrayed him.




Would you tell the woman you love the secret of your friend if you thought it would save her much sorrow? I'd tell someone I love anyone's secret if it ment keeping him from such hell. There comes a time when it is worth it to do such things, for some people.


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## Beleg (Jun 27, 2003)

> I don't really know what he assumed?



Hmm...perhaps wrong wording from me. But on retrospect it seems wrong of me to use the word "assume".
In here I was referring to the point that Gwindor told Finduilas about Turin's true identity even though Turin hadn't returned Finduilas' love. However pure one might say his motives were, one can't discard the possibility of jealousy creeping in Gwindor and unconciously thought of Turin as a rival.
I don't think that Gwindor had any reason for telling Finduilas about Turin's identity when Turin hadn't answered to her call. 


> Gwindor did not rush out to battle because he was an idiot or fool, he did so because he'd lost it. An idiot would be one who literally thought it best to do this, not one who was in such pain and anger that he could not help himself.



Maybe but doesn't still justify his actions. 



> Now, how think Gwindor was a fool for letting anger get the best of him, but not think the same of Feanor?



Me=Never assumed that or said that.



> But elves* usually* love


There are exceptions to every matter. 



> don't especially like Turin...



Ouch 
Next you'll say you don't like Beleg Strongbow. 


> Would you tell the woman you love the secret of your friend if you thought it would save her much sorrow?



How would It save much sorrow? Would she stop loving him, or will he respond to her after seeing that his truth is out? On the contrary he would be held in higher esteem in the eyes of Finduilas due to his lineage and bearing, and that would only hurt more when she feels the refusal on Turin's part.


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## Gil-Galad (Jun 29, 2003)

I agree with what Nym said.I read carefully everything and I think she is right.At least for some things concerning Gwindor's mistakes.


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## Lasgalen (Jun 30, 2003)

Gwindor may have made some mistakes, but he was not an idiot. He tried to persuade Orodeth to listen to the warning of Ulmo which would have saved Nargothrond. 

How did Gwindor come between Turin and Finduilas? I am having trouble understanding that. Since Finduilas loved Gwindor first shouldn't it be Turin that came inbetween Gwindor and Finduilas?


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## Manveru (Jul 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Arvedui _
> *Some of Gwindor's actions might seem foolish, but he cannot be judged by his actions without looking at what he went through.
> And just before he died, he showed more wisdom than most, so I am drawn between the first two options. I would wish there was one option in between
> 
> I'll go for the second one! *


The same with me...


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## Confusticated (Sep 17, 2010)

_Bu~ump!_

Find I agree with _most_ of what I said back then. 

Gwindor made a mistake at the battle, but one that is understandable to me. And I think he only ever ment well for Finduilas, and everyone else.

Summed up well here


> Gwindor did not rush out to battle because he was an idiot or fool, he did so because he'd lost it. An idiot would be one who literally _thought_ it best to do this, not one who was in such pain and anger that he could not help himself.
> 
> Now, how think Gwindor was a fool for letting anger get the best of him, but not think the same of Feanor? I ask this to anyone who thinks Gwindor was an idiot but admires Feanor greatly and thinks he was not an idiot.
> 
> ...


 
But unfortunately the Feanor-loving Gwindor-haters haven't been around.

Any other input on Gwindor?


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