# Cycles of the elves?



## Erestor Arcamen (Feb 13, 2006)

I was reading info on Mahtan, father of Nerdanel and anyways there was a part that talked about life cycles:



> According to J. R. R. Tolkien most Elves could only grow beards from the "third cycle" of their lives, while Mahtan was an exception in being only early in his second.


 
So i was wondering if anyone knew anything about these cycles and what they mean. I mean if elves are immortal, once they're fully grown they cant change that much as far as I know.


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## HLGStrider (Feb 13, 2006)

I don't have an answer, but I was coincidentally wondering about the beard thing just the other day. It seems strange that Elves would still experience changes after what we consider a full maturity and it made me wonder if there were any 4th cycle stages. When we think of eternal youth/life we think of something static. With Elves, at least somewhat, it seems to involve some degree of maturity. I don't know if this is from Tolkien or if I am stealing it from other fantasy, but isn't there talk somewhere of age appearing in the eyes. 

We know that Elves can tire of life (Feanor's mother sort of did), so maybe they aren't as immortal as we like to think. Eventually they could get bored/weary of existance and fade away. Maybe that's the 9th cycle.


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 13, 2006)

Elves aren't immortal per se, though to the human mind it certainly seems so. Think of it as a really, really, _really_ long life span. Elves did not have beards as a rule and if they did it occured in the third cycle of their life. So only a few exceptions had beards, like Cirdan and Mahtan. Mahtan was a double exception in that he had a beard but was only in his second cycle of life, apparently too early to have a beard.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Feb 13, 2006)

Yeha in lotr fotr at the description of Galadriel it says 

_l_


> _otr The Mirror of Galadriel Chapter VII Book 2_
> 
> They were clad wholly in white; and the hair of the Lady was of deep gold, and the hair of Lord Celeborn was of silver long and bright; but no sign of age was upon them, unless it were in the depths of their eyes; for these were keen as lances in the starlight, and yet profound, the wells of deep memory.



In the movie if you look at Galadriel's eyes you can see what looks like a cluster of stars. If you watch the commentary, some of the guys on the crew said something like, "we read this (the above quote) from the book and tried to figure out how to show it in the movie, so me and (someone else) went out and bought a whole pile of white Christmas Lights" ==>>just a fun fact


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## Hobbit-GalRosie (Feb 7, 2007)

_BUUUUUMP!_

This is one of those things that gets mentioned in passing occasionally by Tolkien scholars but no one seems to have ANY specifics about! Please, if anyone knows anything more post it, because I have been DYING about this issue for so long! What exactly is a "cycle" anyway? Just some natural process Elves go through over the ages? An incarnation, after coming back from the halls of waiting? The spin cycle? What?

I guess incarnation's not likely considering Mahtan; it'd be odd indeed if he had ever died...


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## Erestor Arcamen (May 11, 2014)

I found some additional information from the Tolkien Gateway:



> Elves had no beards, at least until their "third cycle of life", like Círdan. Mahtan was an exception, and had a beard in his early "second cycle". The Elvish beardlessness could also be observed in Mannish lines with an Elvish strain (as in the princely house of Dol Amroth), which lacked beards.It is unclear what these cycles exactly are. A logical sense would be that the first cycle is childhood and adolescence, the second is adulthood, and the third is for extremely old Elves; Círdan was the most ancient known Elf on Middle-earth.
> Apparently, beards were the only sign of further natural physical aging beyond maturity.
> Elves did not physically age over their 100th year but they did age in a different sense than Men: they became ever more weary of the world and burdened by its sorrows, sometimes appeared to age under great stress. Círdan seemed to be aged himself, since he is described as looking old, save for the stars in his eyes; this may be due to all the sorrows he had seen and lived through since the First Age. Also, the people of Nargothrond had trouble recognizing Gwindor after his time as a prisoner of Morgoth.
> Another bearded elf was possibly Tinfang Gelion.



Source


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## PaigeSinclaire88 (Feb 8, 2017)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> I was reading info on Mahtan, father of Nerdanel and anyways there was a part that talked about life cycles:
> 
> 
> 
> So i was wondering if anyone knew anything about these cycles and what they mean. I mean if elves are immortal, once they're fully grown they cant change that much as far as I know.




I think it simply means cycles of life, like the seasons.


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## Phuc Do (Feb 10, 2017)

I can't remember anything about cycles of life for elves. I thought it was just cycles like humans, a kid, puberty and grown up.


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## Ingolmin (Apr 23, 2017)

The three cycles are not specifically defined, the first cycle is likely childhood and adolescence, which ended at the 100th year, the second is adulthood which could continue for Ages, and the third is for extremely old Elves; Círdan was the most ancient known Elf in Middle-earth. However, Elves, who were not ancient, could enter the third stage sooner due to tragic life events.
Elves had no beards, at least until their "third cycle of life", like Círdan. Mahtan was an exception, and had a beard in his early "second cycle". The Elvish beardlessness could also be observed in Mannish lines with an Elvish strain (as in the princely house of Dol Amroth), which lacked beards.
Elves did not physically age after they reached maturity, but they did age in a different sense than Men. They became ever more weary of the world and burdened by its sorrows. Círdan seemed to be aged himself since he is described as looking old, save for the stars in his eyes; this may be due to all the sorrows he had seen and lived through since the First Age.


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## Matthew Bailey (Apr 24, 2017)

To begin with:

Tolkien's conception of "Immorality" is one that is a specific conceit of Religious Theology and Philosophy to Justify Death.

This conceit justifies death as "Necessary" in order to provide "meaning" to life, assuming that the only thing that will give our life meaning is knowing that it will end, and as such, Death is a biological necessity, needed for many other reasons than just providing "meaning."

That idea grew during the Scientific Infancy of Humanity, before we had discovered that Death isn't a "necessity," and that many biologically immoral species exists.

But many still contest the idea of an "unending life" for a variety of reasons, all stemming from Thinking that pervaded human thought through Tolkien's time, and even into our own.

So regardless of what is "True" within our Universe, it is this conception of Death that is True within Tolkien's Middle-earth.

In that world, "Human Death" (or the _Gift of Man_) is a necessity, and otherwise Humans who live too long grow "weary" of life.

We see this as well in Elves, even though they are "trapped" within the "Circles of the World" (See Platonic ideals about the "Circles of the World," which pervades Catholic Theology and Thinking as well) until it ends.

And Elves are also seen as trapped in a form of Neoteny (childlikeness), in that they have fewer cares, and they age less quickly, bodily - even Legolas was portrayed as being somewhat "Adolescent," even discounting Jackson's portrayal, which I do . The Elves are described in terms that show many pre-adolescent features, such as a lack of facial, or body-hair, and pure hair and skin, as we tend to see more upon children. Only a few Elves are portrayed as being "More Mature." And these are the Elves who date from the First Age... or before, such as Cirdan, who was the only elf to show a beard prior to the revelation of Tolkien's earlier work.

I have not yet looked too much into the specifics of any Race depicted in Middle-earth, having been mostly concerned with sorting out the general philosophy, theology, and metaphysics that were held by Tolkien, and thus contributed to a coherent Metaphysics and Theology within Middle-earth (where we find some very, very distinct differences to our world/universe).

But even this general Metaphysical and Theological Structure provides clues into the specifics of certain things within Middle-earth.

So the "Cycles" of Elves would certainly fit with the general Platonic, Cartesian, and Quasi-Manichaean Theology and Metaphysics of Middle-earth, which would mirror the live-cycles of Humanity, only with "Mental Maturity" for Elves varying slightly from Humans, and not being aligned with their bodily maturity, either.

MB


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## Erestor Arcamen (May 8, 2017)

Thanks for the answers, I forgot that I started this thread


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