# The Death of Durin's Bane



## JBBXNG (Dec 4, 2020)

As I understand it, when the Balrog and Gandalf fell from the bridge of Khazad-dum down into the chasm beneath it, they fell and fought for a long while until eventually falling into an icy lake which extinguishes the Balrog's flame until it reaches the light of the sun and is once again ignited.

My question is how, when the flame of the Balrog was extinguished, the beast was still living and able to re-ignite his flame. This is strange for me as I understand the Gothmog, Lord of the Balrog's who was the most physically and intellectually impressive of the Balrog (including Durin's Bane), was slain by Ecthelion when he cast him into the Fountain of the King in Gondolin and doused his flame in the water. 

What makes, or could make, this the case?


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## Elthir (Dec 4, 2020)

Based on the text of _The Book of Lost Tales_, I imagine Ecthelion's Balrog was stabbed (with a helm) and drowned, as well as dampened.

🔥


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## grendel (Dec 5, 2020)

I believe the Balrog of Moria was actually killed when Gandalf threw him from their location high up on Zirakzigil, and "he broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin," having fallen a long (but unspecified) distance. Not quite the same as having his flame quenched in a lake, although I can see your question giving the passage in the Sil regarding Gothmog.


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## Elthir (Dec 6, 2020)

I think the _Quenta Silmarillion_ passage briefly states that each slew the other, without details, and the updated long prose _Fall of Gondolin_ (Unfinished Tales) never got close to the battle.

I note one detail in the updated FOG that (if I recall correctly) does not appear in the much (much) earlier version -- a description of Ecthelion's helm when Voronwe and Tuor meet him (again if I recall correctly, in the early version Voronwe and Tuor don't even meet an Elf named "Ecthelion" at this point, pun intended): "and upon his helm there was set a spike of steel pointed with a diamond"

. . . which indicates to me anyway (in my opinion), that (Tolkien still intended that) Ecthelion was going to use his helm as a weapon against Gothmog in the updated long prose version . . . which Tolkien sadly never finished.

🐾


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## Olorgando (Jan 16, 2021)

Azanathel of Emyn Uial said:


> A Balrog is ... The most mighty of the Captains of Morgoth. In publication alone we can surmise that there were roughly 200 Balrogs ...


As soon as Sauron "stopped being a cat", he was always far more powerful than any Balrog.
As to numbers, large numbers of Balrogs belong to the early phase of writings, those published in Book of Lost tales volumes 1 and 2.
JRRT firmly rejected this later, stating that there had not been more than about seven, making them much rarer, more unique and powerful - but still nowhere near Sauron's level.


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## Elthir (Jan 16, 2021)

Balrogs existed in large numbers, even Balrogs "a thousand", into the 1950s, and some instances of large numbers were never revised (for whatever reason) by JRRT himself . . .

. . . although yes, in the later 1950s phase (or as early as that) Tolkien made a marginal note that there should not be more than 3 Balrogs, or at most 7, ever existing, and made a change to a section of the Annals of Aman to reflect this -- a "host" of Balrogs to "his" [Morgoth's] Balrogs.

Christopher Tolkien revised other, still existing references to large numbers of Balrogs for the constructed Silmarillion, but did not, of course, specify a number.


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## Olorgando (Jan 17, 2021)

Elthir said:


> Balrogs existed in large numbers, even Balrogs "a thousand", into the 1950s, and some instances of large numbers were never revised (for whatever reason) by JRRT himself . . .
> 
> . . . although yes, in the later 1950s phase (or as early as that) Tolkien made a marginal note that there should not be more than 3 Balrogs, or at most 7, ever existing, and made a change to a section of the Annals of Aman to reflect this -- a "host" of Balrogs to "his" [Morgoth's] Balrogs.
> 
> Christopher Tolkien revised other, still existing references to large numbers of Balrogs for the constructed Silmarillion, but did not, of course, specify a number.


Ew. Those two volumes of HoMe, 10 "Morgoth's Ring" and 11 "The War of the Ring", much of whose writing somehow simply never makes it into long-term memory. Maybe because I so often, even upon (rare) re-reading, find myself shaking my head. That blind spot does trip me up every once in a while.

But I do find it remarkable that Christopher decided to excise these mentions of large numbers, which had been repeated for quite a while. Perhaps there was more than the marginal note and perfunctory corrections, perhaps to be found in Hostetter's upcoming book? We shall see.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Jan 17, 2021)

Strictly speaking, the only certain to cease a Balrogs's fire is...killing it. It's obvious the Free People had already invented some hardware able to keep their both personnel and material away from Balrogs's blazing damage. OFC it's another matter these material couldn't work so against the Dragons or not obviously.


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## Elthir (Jan 17, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> ( . . . ) Perhaps there was more than the marginal note and perfunctory corrections, perhaps to be found in Hostetter's upcoming book? We shall see.




My opinion about CJRT's decision for the constructed Silmarillion is A) he followed his father's example with respect to the _Annals of Aman_ description (made in light of the marginal note), because B) doing so makes the number vague in any case, if obviously more than one.

A middle way, so to speak.


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## JBBXNG (Feb 4, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> As soon as Sauron "stopped being a cat", he was always far more powerful than any Balrog.
> As to numbers, large numbers of Balrogs belong to the early phase of writings, those published in Book of Lost tales volumes 1 and 2.
> JRRT firmly rejected this later, stating that there had not been more than about seven, making them much rarer, more unique and powerful - but still nowhere near Sauron's level.


This is a subject of debate, in Tolkien's books and letters there are several different indications of how many balrogs existed, it may be referring to specific moments in time however I don't think anyone can say definitively how many balrogs existed at any one time.


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## Olorgando (Feb 4, 2021)

JBBXNG said:


> This is a subject of debate, in Tolkien's books and letters there are several different indications of how many balrogs existed, it may be referring to specific moments in time however I don't think anyone can say definitively how many balrogs existed at any one time.


Well, I would propose that in Moria, at least, there was only one at the end of the Third Age ... 


Elthir said:


> My opinion about CJRT's decision for the constructed Silmarillion is A) he followed his father's example with respect to the _Annals of Aman_ description (made in light of the marginal note), because B) doing so makes the number vague in any case, if obviously more than one.


I was really surprised that this explicit statement by JRRT limiting the numbers of Balrogs: "There should not be supposed more than say 3 or at most 7 ever existed." is really limited to this one marginal note. It is to be found on page 80 of the 1994 Harper Collins paperback of HoMe vol. 10 "Morgoth's Ring", commentary to "The Annals of Aman" §50, and on page 134 of the 1995 Harper Collins paperback of HoMe vol. 11 "The War of The Jewels", commentary to "The Grey Annals" §230. As Elthir mentioned above, Christopher Tolkien did not state a specific number in the published "Silmarillion", but clearly seemed to imply that there were few of them.

I think this has to be seen in the light of Gandalf's fight, still as the Grey, with the Moria Balrog. While it may be true that the disguised-as-Istari Maiar sent to Middle-earth were forbidden to use displays of their native power in influence mortals in any way in their quests, I would think the kid gloves were off when Olórin confronted the Moria Balrog without any mortal witnesses (compare to that when, the Fellowship having left Balin's tomb, he said he had "met his match" when successfully blocking the Balrog from getting through the door that the Fellowship had used to escape). I think it was in a letter that JRRT stated that Gandalf could have trebled his power by using the One Ring against Sauron without his Ring, and would have been superior in power to Sauron in this constellation. That moves the Moria Balrog (and he must certainly be below Gothmog, Lord of the Balrogs, in power) much closer to Sauron in power, if still definitely below him. Thousands of semi-Saurons as per early the Sil writings - with thousands of them also being slaughtered - seems just ridiculous.


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## Akhôrahil (Feb 7, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> That moves the Moria Balrog (and he must certainly be below Gothmog, Lord of the Balrogs, in power) much closer to Sauron in power, if still definitely below him. Thousands of semi-Saurons as per early the Sil writings - with thousands of them also being slaughtered - seems just ridiculous.


And even slaughtered by mere elves. I could not agree more that it seems just ridiculous.


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## Alcuin (Feb 7, 2021)

This post is (at least in part) a non sequitur.

Having just replied to the thread “Are dragons evil”, I am reminded that in light of


Hisoka Morrow said:


> …It's obvious the Free People had already invented some hardware able to keep their both personnel and material away from Balrogs's blazing damage. OFC it's another matter these material couldn't work so against the Dragons or not obviously.


that the Dwarves of Belegost wore “great masks in battle hideous to look upon; and those stood them in good stead against the dragons.” (_Silmarillion_, “Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad”) They used this armor to overcome Glaurung and his fiery breath, and drive him from the battlefield. The Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin was the same sort of armor, even defending Túrin from Glaurung’s enchantment until he foolishly lifted the mask after the beast goaded his pride and arrogance.

In _The Fall of Gondolin_, the Noldor of Gondolin made armor that withstood much of the fire and some of the blows of Balrogs. Ecthelion was able to kill Gothmog by impaling him on the diamond-tipped spike of his steel helmet. (Gothmog might also have drowned: the two of them fell into the fountain in the square at the entrance to the king’s palace.) The Balrog that organized and led the attack on the refugees of Gondolin in the Crissaegrim was unable to injure Glorfindel who was wearing such armor when the Elf-lord attacked it, driving it to the rocks above Cirith Thoronath.


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