# Fall of Arnor - reasons.Let's analyse!



## Lhunithiliel (Sep 25, 2003)

I don’t know about you, but I feel a need to have a good and deep discussion on facts from Tolkien’s books!
The “Noldorin Forge” has been idle too long!

So …Here is one for all of us! 
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Was the stubborn tendency of preserving the _pure Numenorean blood-line_ the reason for the Northern Kingdom of the Dunedain to fall?

-	“It was the pride and wonder of the Northern Line that, though their power departed and their people dwindled, through all the many generations the succession was unbroken from father to son.” (Appendix A (iii), The Lord of the Rings) 

Let’s trace Aragorn’s lineage:

-	Aragorn, the last of the purely Northern Line, is “the thirty-ninth *Heir of Isildur in the direct line.* (Index, The Silmarillion). 
-	His father Arathorn was *directly descended from Isildur* 
-	his mother was Gilraen the Fair, daughter of Dirhael, who was descended from Aranarth, the First Chieftan, who was himself *descended from Isildur*.( Appendix A (v), The Lord of the Rings)

All right! Then…taking into consideration that they intermarried only among themselves yet their number being never great, especially after the severe loss of men at the Gladden Fields, it can be concluded that in time all the Dunedains from the North became relatives to a greater or lesser extent! The above example shows it clearly!

Didn’t that lead to a reverse effect – completely opposite to the intentions of the exiled Numenoreans namely to preserve Numenor as long as possible even in those new circumstances? The intentions were good, no doubt about that! But the result ?….
IMO, it resulted only in causing the nation fade and lose strength to adapt to the new world and to fight the new and quite severe challenges this new world imposed upon them!
I get the impression that these people could never really accept the fact that the lands of Arnor were NOT the plains of Elenna. 
That caused them take wrong decisions and finally lose the kingdom.

What do you think?
Let’s analyse.


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## Gil-Galad (Sep 25, 2003)

Ok,I think that Lhun is right in a way.
They really were too conservative and the marriages between them might have given some negative effects on the next generations in terms of the gene code.But I think this is not the problem.
I believe that the Dunedains just didn' have luck.Why?
After the end of II Age Gondor,for example,had the chance to develop itself and didn't have any serious problems with Sauron and his servants.But the situation of the Northern Kingdom was different.Yes Gondor too had many difficult moments especially after 1600,but is was not the same.The Dunedain actually didn't have any chance.And while Gondor received help from the Rohirrims in the very last moment,the Dunedains didn't receive any help.
This fact combined with the pride of the Dunedains and their conservative nature is one of the reasons for the fall of the Northern Kingdom

p.s.I am sorry for not using some quotes and for not writing more more serious post,but I wasn't able to take my LOTR book and UT with me in Belgium.I have to wait a couple of weeks till I receive them.


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## Lhunithiliel (Sep 25, 2003)

Beleg, remember the Grey Company? I am sure ytou do! 
Well, do you consider them all to be of a Royal line? I didn't get that impression. Yet they were described as umistakably Dunedains from the North, which speaks to me that that people who were once Numenoreans preserved so well the physical look and appearance of their nation that they became recognizable all over ME. And THAT could only be achieved by not "messing up" with the local population. The Gondorians had preserved some of the features inherited by their forefathers from Numenor but mainly in traditions, culture, habits etc. As for the Dunedains from the Northern Kingdom - there are bits of information here and there scattered throughout the whole book (LOTR) making it quite obvious that they tended to never marry local people but intermarrried among themselves thus trying to preserve the pure Numenorean blood-line. That I think led to, in fact, loosing purely phisical strength as no "fresh blood" was introduced. No matter how amazing it is that for thousands of years that people kept their blood-line pure, I think it finally led to a bad result - decrease of population, kinstrife (imagine how many of them could claim kingship!!!;how many really had the rights to be called of Royal blood being descendents of the High Numenoreans within the limited Arnor-society!!!) and eventually - to deviding Arnor into separate kingdoms which was OK for the Witch King to more easily conquer!
So this is my point...... added to a question that I once set up into a separate thread for an open discussion and it never received any "decent" answer!  That question was: "Why didn't the Dunedain join Gondor when Arnor was destroyed?" Which...in a way...G-G, is a sort of an answer to your point concerning that the Dunedains never got the chance for help....Maybe they just didn't want one? I wonder WHY????? What kept them in the wilderness around the Shire?

Meanwhile, I was also thinking about sth. else...concerning Gondor ... but I guess after this topic gets its full coverage, I'll then post the other one!


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## Gil-Galad (Sep 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lhunithiliel _
> *So this is my point...... added to a question that I once set up into a separate thread for an open discussion and it never received any "decent" answer!  That question was: "Why didn't the Dunedain join Gondor when Arnor was destroyed?" Which...in a way...G-G, is a sort of an answer to your point concerning that the Dunedains never got the chance for help....Maybe they just didn't want one? I wonder WHY????? What kept them in the wilderness around the Shire?
> 
> *


Having in mind the fact that the Dunedain were really proud and conservative persons,I think that they dind't want any help.They probably believed they could manage alone,without Gondorian help.

And about the problems in Gondor.That proves what I said,that the Northern Kingdoms didn't have luck.As I said in my previous post the Gondorians had the chance to receive help in the very last moment from the Rohirrim,while The Northern Kingdoms were alone,because Gondor was not able to send any help,even if The Dunedain didn't want it.
And something else,probably the fact that the relationships between Arthedain, Cardolan and Rhuduar weren't so good influenced too on their destruction.Because divided they were not so strong and couldn't create a kind of alliance like the alliance in the end of IIage.
But that's only an idea,nothing special.


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## Gil-Galad (Sep 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Beleg _
> *GG, I am still waiting for your reasons of calling them conservatives... *


I said I don't have UT and LOTR with me because it wasn't possible to take them with me in Belgium.That is why for some time I won't be able to provide quotes from these two books.
But I think that the fact they never married local people and intermarried among themselves is obvious for their conservatism.


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## Lhunithiliel (Sep 27, 2003)

Well, this is not a debate...we are just analysing! Right? 

It is too strong IMHO to say 


> It is not a fact that they never married local people. It is utter falsely.


Neither the word _never_ nor _utter falsely_ could be used in the case of the Dunedains from the North.
Let's remember some facts:
Arnor:
- Founded by Elendil himself - *pure royal blood!* the preservation of which seems to be extremely important for the Arnoreans even in the times when they divided the kingdom;
- The Numenoreans in Arnor were always less as a population compared to that of Gondor. With a little help from afar   I have remembered also that :
>> The Faithful were never in great numbers in Numenor itself.

>> Before the Drowning of Numenor, the colonies of the Faithful were at Tharbad in the North and at Pelargir and the surrounding areas in the South. Pelargir was the main haven, as is known and more of the Numenoreans who had started the colonization of the Great Lands mainly dwelled there - in the South.

>> During the Drowning, *four* ships of Elendil came to the North while *five ships* of Isildur and Anarion came to the South. Moreover, after the Fall of Sauron and the End of the Second Age, a great deal of the Northern Dunedain were slain at the Gladden Fields.

In leads to a conclusion that the Northern Kings therefore ruled over a lesser proportion of Numenoreans.
There had been Men in Eriador since the Elder Days, and the Numenoreans claimed lordship over them. Taking into consideration the nature of the character of the Numenoreans, I can hardly imagine them intermarring with the "lesser" men/women.

I'd say it in other words - Lords don't marry lesser in blood. Even the famous story of Aldarion and Erendis (our favourite! Right?  ) shows this trend most clearly!

On the other hand, since the Northern Dunedain were fewer in number, it may be said that they were more "jealous" of their lineage, and had been less likely to intermarry with those of non-Numenorean descent. 

Besides, the Mountains encircling Arnor were held by Angmar. Men from other regions could not easily enter the area. The Men in the region where Arnor was established seemed to not be extremely fond of the "lordly"- behaving newcommers from the West and also feared them! Men to the South of Eriador were hostile to the Numenoreans as well. 

No much affection and love! Don't you think?

There were Elves in that area, too, but we all know that intermarring between both races was always an exception and almost always of a tragical end.

From these facts comes a conclusion that in Arnor lived Numenoreans who were practically beset by external and internal problems and unfavourable conditions and the only way to survive as a nation was to preserve their pure line!

Another is the issue that in the given circumstances Arnor was in much a worse position than Gondor in order to keep the kingdom whole and prosperous., Therefore, I understand that as a clear reason for its ruin into separate realms which eventually led to its final fall.


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## Eriol (Sep 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lhunithiliel _
> *Was the stubborn tendency of preserving the pure Numenorean blood-line the reason for the Northern Kingdom of the Dunedain to fall? *



I think that even if that played a role, a much stronger role was played by Angmar. I believe you guys analyzed very well the matter of racial prejudice; but as our own history shows, racial prejudice is easily broken in sexual matters, especially if there are not enough mates around. 

I think the native population of Eriador, which in my mind is always exemplified by the Breelanders, was not at all hostile to the Dunedain, and neither were the Dunedain hostile to them. I don't think the Dunedain despised the lesser men; even if they thought they were lesser men. Dunlendings are another matter. Can Beleg support or knock down these assertions with HOME 12?

To me the reason for the Northern Kingdom to fail was simply Angmar.


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## Starflower (Sep 29, 2003)

Here we go :

I think that the Fall of Arnor cannot be attributed to "stubbornly preserving Numenorean blood". True, the Duendain were very proud of the fact that their leaders were descended from Isildur in a single unbroken line from father to son. But that doesn't mean that the "common folk" wouldn't have intermarried with the local population, it is more than likely , if not vital to the survival of a people. But we are talking about the fall of the kingdom itself, not the Dunedain. I think the problems were evident when Earendur's sons could not decide on the ruling of the kingdom and split it between them. Earendur was considered the last king or Arnor, and he was only tenth in line from Isildur. There were signs of unrest early, Valandur the eights king died a violent and mysterious death after ruling for fifty years, which in the scale of the Dunedain is very short. Angmar wasn't even establishe til ca TA 1300, so it can't be attributed for the fall of Arnor, but it is held to be directly responsible for the demises of Rhudaur and Cardolan.


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## Gil-Galad (Sep 29, 2003)

So I suppose we can say that one of the reasons for the Fall of the Northern Kingdom is the beginning of something like a Me feudalism?Tthe Kingdom was divided into several independent parts,which actually were part of united Dunedain Kingdom.It is like the feudalism in 9th and 10th century.


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## Eriol (Sep 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Gil-Galad _
> *So I suppose we can say that one of the reasons for the Fall of the Northern Kingdom is the beginning of something like a Me feudalism?Tthe Kingdom was divided into several independent parts,which actually were part of united Dunedain Kingdom.It is like the feudalism in 9th and 10th century. *



I agree. And remember that the Witch-King went to Angmar _precisely_ because the Dúnedain were divided and weaker in the North.


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## Gil-Galad (Sep 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Beleg _
> *Several? *


Sorry,I didn't use the correct word.
Anyway,Eriol is right.Wiith the so called feudal relationships in this part of ME,the different parts were weaker.So each one of them didn't have big potential in terms of resources,people,military and economical power.If they had been united they would have managed to resist,because theyir military,economical power would have been much more bigger.
You know,there is a kind of long-known saying:
"Divide them and then rule them"
So the Witch-King used in the best possible way the situation.


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## Lhunithiliel (Oct 2, 2003)

So..... the topic died...

If this means that it has been covered and that there is nothing left to be added, then let's try to draw some conclusions:

Arnor fell because :

1/ It was isolated
2/ It was devided
3/ The Numenoreans there were in fewer numbers
4/ The Numenoreans there tended to preserve the pure bllod-line>>didn't intermarry the locals>>decrease in number and genetic strength
5/ The Numenoreans fromt he North were too proud to ask for help
6/ Arnor could not receive any help from Gondor as Gondor itself was in a difficult situation.

Have I missed anything?  

First - if you'd like to point out another reason, just post about it and I'll add it to above list.

Second - Do you think we could decide which of all these above was the most crucial reason for Arnor to fall?


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## Valandil (Jul 30, 2004)

*Re: Fall of Arnor - reasons. Let's analyse!*

This has been dormant for a time... but I'm still fairly new here and it's of great interest to me.

I don't see the maintaining of pure Numenorean race as a drawback... I think it was a positive. Not to be racist - but, in our fictitious world here, the Numenoreans clearly had advantages which were diminished with mixing. And, as Eriol pointed out, the Northern Dunedain seemed to mostly get along with the non-Numenorean men in Eriador.

Arathorn's marriage to Gilraen was not exactly 'intermarriage'... Aranarth was Arathorn's (greatX12)grand-father... quite distant... so if Gilraen was descended to the same degree from Aranarth, they were 13th cousins or some such. Common traits from that union alone would be (1 / 2 to the 14th power)... quite insignificant. If there were only 10,000 - 20,000 Dunedain (total guess) still scattered about Eriador in the 30th century, TA... that's still a reasonable genetic pool, isn't it?

Arnor was divided into three way back in 861. Arthedain survived over 1100 years after that... so they hung on for quite awhile. Tolkien never details just why they divided. If I may post this though, here's a link to an interesting article which speculates on the matter:

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/46708

When Arthedain was finally crushed by Angmar in 1974, I don't think 'joining up' with Gondor was a possibility. Just 30 years before, Arvedui had been rejected as a candidate for Gondor's throne... and that was when he had a kingdom. His son Aranarth, now bereft of kingdom, I'm sure had no desire to go 'begging for his bread' at the doors of Gondor, so to speak - just as Thorin didn't want to much later on.

Going back to the earlier history of the kingdoms, when they were founded, we are not told explicitly, but I wouldn't be surprised if Arnor was the greater. It was the place where Elendil ruled and was 'High King' over both kingdoms. However, not only did they lose 200 of their best men at the Gladden Fields, I'm inclined to think that the War of the Last Alliance took a heavier toll on Arnor's soldiers than on those of Gondor... ironic, since the fighting took place in and near Gondor. However, early on, Sauron took Ithilien... yet does not seem to have crossed the River Anduin... so Anarion apparently was successful at holding him at bay in Osgiliath and turning the war into a seige for five years. However, the battle before the Black Gate involved the forces of Arnor coming down from the North, along with the Elves of Lindon, Imladris, Lorien and Greenwood (and the Dwarves of Moria)... so the forces of Arnor were actually more exposed in the battle itself. And though they won the field... the losses could have been quite heavy.

After the war was all over... and even after Gladden, Gondor was in a situation where they had plenty of expansion opportunities. Not so for Arnor... they had Elven allies to the East and West, frozen wasteland to the north and mostly a sea to the south. There were pockets of enemies... Dunlendings, hill clans in Rhudaur, maybe Minhiriath(??)... but not the lands ripe for expansionism like those surrounding Gondor.

Anyway, just some thoughts. Hope some of you will join back into the discussion. Here's another article from the same series which speculates on the respective foundings of Arnor and Gondor.

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/47755


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## Halasían (Aug 24, 2010)

Some great analysis here in this thread!

I think a part of the issue with Arnor's slow downfall was it's lack of having a strong enemy right next door, like Gondor had with Mordor. Granted, the Witch-king did take up against them as one of Sauron's officers, and he in time drained their strength by keeping some pressure on Arnor. Arnor suffered through the partition into Rhuadur, Cardolan, and Arthedain which divided their strength and caused internal strife among the three 'states'. Eventually they were word down and fell, finally ending with the overrun of Arthedain.


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