# So, where in Arda do Trolls come from? Did Melkor screw up?



## Naugrimmellon (Jan 10, 2005)

Well? Are trolls another of Melkors nasty creations? It would seem strange if they are, for often they have to be whipped and beaten by the orcs to get them to do what they are told. One would think that Morgoth would have bred a rather more obediant race to be his beasts of burden and siege.


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## Confusticated (Jan 10, 2005)

In Appendix F it tells that even though Sauron later enhanced and bread trolls that their beginning was "far back in the twilight of the Elder days".

In an essay published in _The History of Middle-earth_ vol. 10 JRRT refers to this passage in the appendix and says "It seems clearly implied in _The Lord of the Rings_ that trolls existed in their own right, but were 'tinkered' with by Melkor."




> ...but they were larger and slower [than goblins]. It would seem evident that they were corruptions of primitive human types.



He also wrote in a letter that some of the trolls (dumb Stone-trolls) could be "counterfeits" and that this is why the return to stone, while other trolls have different origin. 

Olog-hai could be from people for example.

I don't remember that trolls did not obey as well as other corrupted beings like orcs, but maybe their stupidity had something to do with it. Dark Lords controlled their minions with fear and you need enough brain to realise there is cause for it. Perhaps the smarter trolls of Sauron did obey better? But where does it say trolls did not obey? I'm curious about the exact wording.

But in my opinion there is nothing odd about Melkor's corruptions not being as efficient as they could have potentially been. He was really destructive and hateful monster, probably didn't give much care to detail.


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## Naugrimmellon (Jan 10, 2005)

THank you for a most detailed explanation. I do wonder about the origional spicies of troll though. As in what they might have been like before their corruption. I suppose we shall never know.


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## baragund (Jan 10, 2005)

I recall reading somewhere (can't remember where) that trolls were corrupted ents. It goes back to the concept that because of his evil nature, Melkor could not create anything original, that the best he could do was corrupt that which was created by the other Valar. Hence, orcs are corrupted elves, dragons are corrupted eagles, trolls are corrupted ents.


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## Confusticated (Jan 10, 2005)

You're welcome Naugrimmellon.

Yes Baragund, Treebeard told Merry and Pippin that Melkor made trolls in mockery of ents. Or maybe you're thinking of something else. I don't know if Treebead means that Melkor corrupted ents to do it or not. Seems possible, unless all of Melkor's first trolls were counterfeits. 

And I think it makes sense that the original trolls who were more dumb were the fakes, and only the later smarter trolls involved using people.

_*p.s.*_ I forgot to mention a potential problem with the counterfeit idea. Tolkien also wrote that "when you make Trolls _speak_ you are giving them a power, which in our world (probably) connotes the possession of a 'soul'." The Stone-trolls in _The Hobbit_ had speech and it was Stone-trolls that he was talking about when he suggested counterfeits could be the answer. We can make what we want of that.

In appendix F we are told that the originally trolls had no more speech than beasts. I think Bilbo's trolls were smarter than these. So it could be that the Stone-trolls are not counterfeits but some earlier versions of them were?


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## aragil (Jan 10, 2005)

I believe that CT's footnote to the HoME v 10 passage which Nóm cites speculates that JRRT was specifically referring to the Olog-hai when he mentions Trolls descending from primitive human stock. That's certainly how I interpreted for purposes of _Uruks vs. Uruk-hai_, in any case.


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## HLGStrider (Jan 11, 2005)

I always accepted the Corrupted Ents version, but I am not sure now. I think, however, they were mockeries, probably somehow a combination of stone, tree, and life. 


What about not a corruption of Ents but a corruption of trees? In Tolkien trees have life and obviously can be mallicious. Could not they be twisted and further awakened into trolls?


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## Confusticated (Jan 11, 2005)

Sounds good to me. I don't see why not.

Personally I do not like the idea of counterfeit trolls. This is my belief: Melkor first bred trolls from people, later Sauron was able to increase their intelligence through breeding (versus educating them on an individual basis), and the Olog-hai may have been an extra special mix, perhaps smarter trolls with humans. 

The smarter trolls, such as the Third Age Stone-trolls, may have been the result of breeding trolls together or of adding human. I'm not decided either way.

The reason I believe this is because I like the idea of breeding corruptions of living beings with eachother more than the idea of breeding a living being with a stone being. Kind of weird. Extra weird. 

But then turning to stone is weird.

JRRT does say a few things that I take into this belief but it doesn't exactly reflect his own, which he seems to have been unsure of himself. Especially regarding the countefeits issue.

I'm fully open to other ideas though, perhaps the original trolls were counterfeits.

And maybe Sauron did toss Ents into the Olog-hai mix, giving them their toughness.


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## Arvedui (Jan 11, 2005)

There is a significant difference between the 'early' trolls (of _The Hobbit_), and the later varieties that was encountered in _The Lord of the Rings._ Especially as Nóm said about turning to stone. Whereas the trolls in _The Hobbit_ turned to stone at the rise of the Sun, there is nowhere stated that this happened to the trolls in _The Lord of the Rings_. There were trolls present both at Pelennor and before The Black Gate, and the Sun broke through in both places.

I believe that, like so many other things, the trolls of _The Hobbit _ were a 'mistake.' In The Hobbit, many of the characters had characteristics taken from earlier writings. These characteristics did not fit in when Tolkien with The Lord of the Rings wrote the hobbits into his own mythology/history/whatever.

Why CT stated that trolls exsisted in their own right, I don't know. The only published statement we have from JRR Tolkien's own hand, is what Treebeard told Merry and Pippin. And since that makes some kind of sense, and does not require too much philosophy, I stick with that.


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## aragil (Jan 11, 2005)

Since everybody here seems so comfortable with the idea of trolls from men, I wonder what any of you might think of a pet theory of mine:


> _From The Battle of the Pelennor Fields_
> And if the Rohirrim at their onset were thrice outnumbered by the Haradrim alone, soon their case became worse; for new strength came now streaming to the field out of Osgiliath. There they had been mustered for the sack of the City and the rape of Gondor, waiting on the call of their Captain. He now was destroyed; but Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul had flung them into the fray; Easterlings with axes, and Variags of Khand. Southrons in scarlet, *and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues.*
> ...
> East rode the knights of Dol Amroth driving the enemy before them: *troll-men* and Variags and orcs that hated the sunlight.


Any takers?


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## Confusticated (Jan 11, 2005)

After reading Arvedui's post I'm not sure if I gave the impression that I was speaking externally when I said "earlier trolls" or "original trolls". 

But just to be clear, I ment the trolls created in the First Age.

Olog-hai, which Sauron bred in the Third Age could endure the sun so the RotK trolls don't necessarily have to render The Hobbit's Stone-trolls obsolete.

Maybe JRRT later had some regret about the Stone-trolls, I do not know if he ever said. The same Stone-trolls were present in LotR, so personally I don't chalk them up to the style of _The Hobbit_ or leave them out of the mix when giving things seirous thought. In appendix F Olog-hai are the only ones that are said to be able to endure the light, making them distinct from the Stone-trolls. I have taken "endure" to mean "endure without turning to stone" even though that is not stated.


JRRT himself wrote at one point that Trolls existed in their own, so that's probably were CT got the idea. It sure makes one wonder what they were though! Big apes or something? Or is he speaking of people who were later corrupted into trolls as we know them?

Neither seems likely, especially not the second idea. Perhaps ents though? or some other person who was ment to be a nature guardian. In this way they could have been people without being Children of Eru.

_*ps*_

Hey Aragil, wouldn't surprise me really. There seemed to have been a few degrees of orc-men, why not troll-men? I'll bet Olog-hai were Men-trolls. Maybe Ologs were 80 percent troll for example, and the men like thalf-trolls were a smaller percent? What do you think about it?


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## Arvedui (Jan 12, 2005)

aragil said:


> Since everybody here seems so comfortable with the idea of trolls from men, I wonder what any of you might think of a pet theory of mine:
> Any takers?


Yes!

I am not comfortable with the idea of trolls from men.
Or at least: I wasn't, until you brought that quote. I'll have to rethink my stance, perhaps...?

Nóm:
What I was trying to say: the Trolls of The Hobbit seems to be modelled on the traditional view of Trolls. I, at least, recognize those Trolls from the ones depicted in tales I heard and read in my childhood, traditional fairytales as they were told by the fire-side.
This version of Trolls do not fit in with the Olog-hai, do they?

If I try to be reasonable when thinking about this (the trolls of Pelennor etc.), I come up with only a few alternatives:
1) They were made in mockery of the Ents, as Treebeard said.
2) They were made by Morgoth out of nowhere (which shouldn't have been possible, according to what is said elsewhere about the ability to give life to something).
3) They were the result of breeding Stone-trolls with men  or some other creature.
4) They existed from the beginning as one of the creations originating from Ilúvatar.

In my mind, a couple of those alternatives does not fit in. Therefore I am left with the opinion that
1) Trolls were creatures that Morgoth created by twisting captured Ents, like he created Orcs from Elves (If we shall discuss that, then it should be done in a different thread).
2) Olog-hai and other trolls that Sauron used at the end of the Third Age, were the result of breeding.

Does that sound possible, or even probable?


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## Hobbit-GalRosie (Jan 14, 2005)

I think No. 2 on that second list makes sense. The earlier Stone-trolls were stupid and not very useful as they had to find some cave to hole up in before dawn, so Sauron mixed in other things in an attempt to rectify these problems. That still leaves the question of where the heck these earlier ones came from in the first place. I can't say I know, all the theories put forth so far would cover the known facts, but none seems stronger than another, nor is there any direct Tolkien quote that points specifically to one more than the others as anything more than possibilities. I don't personally like the idea of Trolls from Ents, but disliking the idea doesn't make it more improbable, it only means Morgoth is that much more despicable.

P.S. What's this about corrupted eagles? I didn't recognize it at all at first, then when I thought about it I had the vague feeling I might or might not have read one line to that effect somewhere in HoMe. Can anyone tell me where this actually from and/or provide the exact quote?


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## aragil (Jan 14, 2005)

Hobbit-GalRosie said:


> ... nor is there any direct Tolkien quote that points specifically to one more than the others as anything more than possibilities.


 Actually, not entirely direct, but still having some serious implications:


> _From Letters #153_
> I suppose that actually the chief difficulties I have involved myself in are scientific and biological ... Elves and Men are evidently in biological terms one race, or they could not breed and produce fertile offspring


 Tolkien obligated himself to observing the biological principal that only coupling from the same species can produce 'viable' offspring (offspring capable of reproducing). This somewhat narrows the possibilities:

1) If Olog-hai are produced through the union of 'primitive humans' (as is speculated in the quote provided in Nóm's first post) and older trolls, then the older trolls had to have also been from the same 'race', i.e. men/elves/orcs. However, in Letters Tolkien speculates that the older trolls are conterfeits. IMO this makes the Olog-hai as a blend of men/older trolls rather unlikely. Some caveats to this: Sauron could have done this using magic, the Olog-hai might not be 'viable', the older trolls might not have been counterfeits (but see below).

2) Tolkien also generally sticks to the principals of Mendelian genetics- selective breeding can be used to enhance traits in offspring, but new traits (existing outside the collective genepool) are unlikely to spring up spontaneously. In the case of Saruman's Uruk-hai, this means that the 'sun-phobia' generally found in Orcs is bred out by breeding with humans. However, this raises some problems for trolls. Orcs' 'sun phobia' can be explained because they were bred prior to the first sunrise- hence Morgoth (or possibly Sauron) could have accidentally selected for humans/elves were slightly sun-phobic, without ever realizing it. However, there is no 'scientific' way to explain how the trolls' weakness of turning to stone could have come around from breeding- Ents exhibited nothing of this nature, and neither did humans/elves/orcs. IMO this is strong evidence for the 'old trolls as counterfeits' theory.


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## HLGStrider (Jan 24, 2005)

Is there any possiblity, since in Tolkien we deal with both the magical and the scientific, that Melkor made a troll that was non-sentient, first out of rock and stone, and bred somehow the non-living with the living to create a half living?

We know that inanimate objects, such as swords and rings, which supposedly have no soul, can speak and inflict malice upon people. 

What about the story of the Pukel man who made a statue to protect a friend and by infusing enough of his own power gave the statue will to walk and fight for the friend? Could such a creature be created by Melkor's power and given the ability to breed?

The ability to breed is the sticking point and the point where the "made from stone" theory is the weakest.


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## Manwe (Jan 25, 2005)

> Is there any possiblity, since in Tolkien we deal with both the magical and the scientific, that Melkor made a troll that was non-sentient, first out of rock and stone, and bred somehow the non-living with the living to create a half living?


This theory also might explain the nasty tendency of turning to stone of _The Hobbit_ trolls and maybe instead of breeding they just kept being made out of stone and when it came to making the smarteer trolls instead of just infusing them with life he infused them with the men or whatever was put into the trolls. Is that possible???  I don't know but if it is I think HLGStrider has come up with the best theory yet.


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## HLGStrider (Jan 26, 2005)

I know that certain parts of the Hobbit are underdeveloped as far as the mythology goes, but that's sort of where I got this theory:

_"Dawn take you all, and be stone to you!" said a voice that sounded like William's. But it wasn't. For just at that moment the light came over the hill, and there was a mighty twitter in the branches. William never spoke for he stood turned to stone as he stooped; and Bert and Tom were stuck like rocks as they looked at him. And there they stand to this day, all alone, unless the birst perch on them; *for trolls as you probably know, must be underground before dawn, or they go back to the stuff of the mountains they are made of, and never move again.* That is what had happened to Bert and Tom and William._


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