# Weakpoint of Mithril



## Hisoka Morrow (Jul 18, 2022)

It's already well-known that the Mithril was so OP that no already known weapons could cause effective damage,...at least in the 3rd Age. Yet there're still bunches of cases showing Mithril weren't supposed to be that invincible, such as the destructive casualties during the War of the Last Alliance even though we'd no idea how widely-equpped were those Mithril at the Free People personnel, Mithril stuff wasn't that conspicuous till the fall of Moria. At least we could make the conclusion that the Dark Lord's craftsman personnel had the standard to inflict enough destruction at the Mithril.
Any thought?


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## Radaghast (Jul 18, 2022)

_Mithril_ is practically proof against piercing weapons; it is best against arrows. But it does not protect against blunt force. Even a piercing weapon strongly jabbed can cause damage, as we saw with the orc that tried to spear Frodo. The mithril shirt prevented impalement but didn't prevent damage as Frodo's flesh was bruised.



> ‘Well, it did not skewer me, I am glad to say,’ said Frodo; ’though I feel as if I had been caught between a hammer and an anvil.’ He said no more. He found breathing painful.


— "The Bridge of Khazad-dûm"



> There was a dark and blackened bruise on Frodo’s right side and breast. Under the mail there was a shirt of soft leather, but at one point the rings had been driven through it into the flesh. Frodo’s left side also was scored and bruised where he had been hurled against the wall.


— "Lothlórien

Not only does the mithril not prevent damage from the side which was struck by the spear, it doesn't prevent wounds from Frodo's getting slammed into the wall. In the movie Frodo doesn't show so much as a scratch from getting "impaled" by the troll which is obvious nonsense. Enough blows with a heavy weapon would kill the wearer of any mithril armor.


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## Ent (Jul 18, 2022)

Hisoka Morrow said:


> It's already well-known that the Mithril was so OP that no already known weapons could cause effective damage,...at least in the 3rd Age. Yet there're still bunches of cases showing Mithril weren't supposed to be that invincible, such as the destructive casualties during the War of the Last Alliance even though we'd no idea how widely-equpped were those Mithril at the Free People personnel, Mithril stuff wasn't that conspicuous till the fall of Moria. At least we could make the conclusion that the Dark Lord's craftsman personnel had the standard to inflict enough destruction at the Mithril.
> Any thought?



Mithril was very precious, being pretty scarce. 
And yes, it was "hard as nails" as Bilbo said, and would "turn the normal lances" etc.
But here's the thing... 
It seems it was only considered for use as a source of beautiful metal for trinkets and jewels and metal adornment, etc. - "such things as the Elves loved" - and as a DEFENSIVE weaponry. I.e. as a coat of mail. (Note is made that after Dain returned, the gates of Gondor were evrentually replaced with Mithril gates... must be after the "mother lode" was finally found, as they'd not found that yet in history, which is why they kept digging deeper until they released the Balrog.)

That said... even wearing a coat, and helmet, of mithril (and we only know of the ONE that was made "for an elven princeling) - there would, no doubt, have been OFFENSIVE weaponry made of it as well, if it had been turned to those uses.

And what happens when a Mithril lance connects with a Mithrill mail vest? Umnhhh.... not sure we know that. But it would be interesting.

So Mithril was 'handy', but by no means extensive, and by no means a guarantee against harm. 

The good news is it remained so valuable that consideration was never given to using it for 'weapons of war' - it was just too scarce (i believe) until Dain returned.


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## Goldilocks Gamgee (Jul 18, 2022)

I find it interesting that in many very modern shows, metal with the same idea as mithril is used (ex. beskar in Star Wars, Vibranium in the MCU, etc.). The difference between these metals is that they are shock absorbent, but mithril is not, implying that it is a normal metal, just very strong.



Well-aged Enting said:


> there would, no doubt, have been OFFENSIVE weaponry made of it as well, if it had been turned to those uses.



I don't think so, as it is not as useful as defensive ones. If you think about it, then an unbreakable sword is useful, but not half as useful as unbreakable chain mail. Considering how the supply of mithril was very limited, it could be expected of them to create as useful stuff as possible, from what they had. For example, if you only had three potatoes, you would make the form of potatoes you like best, not that one that is only semi-good.


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## Ent (Jul 18, 2022)

Goldilocks Gamgee said:


> I find it interesting that in many very modern shows, metal with the same idea as mithril is used (ex. beskar in Star Wars, Vibranium in the MCU, etc.). The difference between these metals is that they are shock absorbent, but mithril is not, implying that it is a normal metal, just very strong.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think so, as it is not as useful as defensive ones. If you think about it, then an unbreakable sword is useful, but not half as useful as unbreakable chain mail. Considering how the supply of mithril was very limited, it could be expected of them to create as useful stuff as possible, from what they had. For example, if you only had three potatoes, you would make the form of potatoes you like best, not that one that is only semi-good.



possible. And yet we should remember history as well. The advent of alloyed metal swords, an improvement on the prior iron ones, resulted in the iron swords simply breaking across the tempered ones…a huge offensive advantage. One can imagine mithril having much the same advantage.

but that said, the Dwarves preferred to withdraw themselves from the battles…and as they controlled both the source, and the applications, of mithril, such things simply never came to be.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Jul 18, 2022)

Goldilocks Gamgee said:


> I don't think so, as it is not as useful as defensive ones. If you think about it, then an unbreakable sword is useful, but not half as useful as unbreakable chain mail. Considering how the supply of mithril was very limited, it could be expected of them to create as useful stuff as possible, from what they had. For example, if you only had three potatoes, you would make the form of potatoes you like best, not that one that is only semi-good.


Well...the concept of market demand and supplies still work in JRRT's world. 

@Radaghast just hits the point that Mithril wasn't that OP at all. 
Thanks all of you, In general, I'd like to know do you @Goldilocks Gamgee @Well-aged Enting both notice that Mithril might not be expectedly costly during the 2nd Age? In addition, after the supplies of Mithril regain it's source after the War Of The Ring ended, it's obviously not as luxury-use as before, proved by the fact that it become new material for Gondor capital's Gate.


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## Alcuin (Jul 19, 2022)

In Middle-earth, mithril was found only in Moria, according to Gandalf. (Tolkien discarded an idea that it once might have been found in the Ered Luin.) It seems to me that it was more common and readily accessible in Númenor, though I can find no reference for this: it could be a misapprehension on my part. Tar-Telemmaitë, the fifteenth king of Númenor, “was so called because of his love of silver, and he bade his servants to seek ever for mithril,” but that neither specifies that it was also found in Númenor, nor that he obtained only from Middle-earth, so it cannot be regarded as a dispositive statement. During the War of the Ring, some of the Dúnedain wore mithril armor (e.g., the helmets of the Guards of the Citadel), so some might reasonably have been expected to carry mithril weapons either then or earlier in the Third or Second Age. In Bilbo’s “Song of Eärendil” that he chanted following Elrond’s feast after Frodo awakened, Bilbo says that Vingilot, Eärendil’s ship, was refashioned in part from mithril, which if true would indicate that mithril was also found in Aman: the Elves of Eldamar could hardly be expected to import it from Middle-earth; but Bilbo’s claim may be nothing more than poetic license. I suppose if it was also found in Aman, then before their rebellion, the Númenóreans might also have obtained some from their friends the Eldar of Eressëa.



Hisoka Morrow said:


> Well...the concept of market demand and supplies still work in JRRT's world.


Tolkien was not unaware of supply and demand: certainly mithril was “beyond price” by the end of the Third Age because of supply and demand, though in the early Fourth Age, Aragorn was able to afford mithril in the new gates for Minas Tirith that Gimli and the Dwarves rebuilt for him. Perhaps this was a gift from the Dwarves in honor of his exalted office or assistance from Gondor in regaining possession of Moria, rather than a “purchased” good: after all, where could the Dwarves find it in any substantial quantity except by recovering it from Moria? (Perhaps they could scour the ruins of Barad-dûr for Sauron’s hoard.)



Hisoka Morrow said:


> @Radaghast just hits the point that Mithril wasn't that OP at all.


Yes. As with any other armor, ancient or modern, you can still be bashed to death inside it even if the armor remains unscathed.

Afterthought: Anárion was killed by a stone cast form Barad-dûr. If his helmet was made of mithril, then I think we can safely say it offers no proof against crushing blows.


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## Olorgando (Jul 19, 2022)

Alcuin said:


> Afterthought: Anárion was killed by a stone cast form Barad-dûr. If his helmet was made of mithril, then I think we can safely say it offers no proof against crushing blows.


Just checked my books. In Appendix A, part III "Durin's Folk" JRRT writes, on page 1085 of my 2002 hardcover:

"Then Azog with a swift swing hewed his neck. His mail-collar withstood the edge, but so heavy was the blow that Náin's neck was broken and he fell."
JRRT does not state explicitly that this mail-collar of Nain's was of Mithril, but mail of *any* metal is a flexible armor, not plate-metal.

'Course, Azog had hardly more that seconds to relish his triumph, as Nain's son Dáin Ironfoot swiftly killed and then decapitated Azog. So what the Angband is Azog doing in PJ's fanfic?!?!?


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## Ent (Jul 19, 2022)

Alcuin said:


> Afterthought: Anárion was killed by a stone cast form Barad-dûr. If his helmet was made of mithril, then I think we can safely say it offers no proof against crushing b





Olorgando said:


> Just checked my books. In Appendix A, part III "Durin's Folk" JRRT writes, on page 1085 of my 2002 hardcover:
> 
> "Then Azog with a swift swing hewed his neck. His mail-collar withstood the edge, but so heavy was the blow that Náin's neck was broken and he fell."
> JRRT does not state explicitly that this mail-collar of Nain's was of Mithril, but mail of *any* metal is a flexible armor, not plate-metal.
> ...



Summoning all my powers of perception and acuity, I determine... that is not a serious question..!! 😁


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## Olorgando (Jul 19, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> Summoning all my powers of perception and acuity, I determine... that is not a serious question..!! 😁


Welllll ... as you've more or less posted elsewhere, IIRC, it's a matter of perspective - and focus ...


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