# Could Nienor be Goldberry?



## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 19, 2022)

This post may be a long-shot, but after recent re-readings of The Silmarillion, I could not help but wonder, could Goldberry be Nienor? I have always been told that mystery enshrouds Goldberry, and thet she is some sort of River-daughter, brought forth from the water to Bombadil. Is this plausible? Nienor flees to the water in grief over Turin Turambar, and after the immense shock and revelation that she was his sister, and then also took his hand in marriage, naming him twice-beloved.

There could be some more experienced readers who have ventured farther than I have on this, but I thought it was worth a thought. Could Nienor had been borne by the river all the way to Bombadil? Is there any way that she could have lived that long or sustained herself? Could she have strayed far into forgetfulness and grief once more before recovering?

Please give your thoughts and shed some light on this. Hannon-le!


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## Elthir (Sep 19, 2022)

A major roadblock would be Nienor's mortal-ness of course.

Do you mean if her fate was changed somehow?


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 19, 2022)

Elthir said:


> A major roadblock would be Nienor's mortal-ness of course.
> 
> Do you mean if her fate was changed somehow?


Yes. I do mean that. It is possible, it was in the days that Men were yet young and I believe it is even written that Turin lived for a very long period of time... It is not without possibility, or so I might venture to suppose.


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## Eljorahir (Sep 21, 2022)

I think I see the starting point for Nienor surviving her leap.

Tolkien's choice of words for Nienor's "final" moment:
_*"...and coming to the brink of Cabed-en-Aras she cast herself over and was lost in the wild water."*_

and the last words of the chapter:
*"...nor was it ever known whither the cold waters of Teiglin had taken her."*

So, she was "lost" in the wild water.

Then, Bombadil did seem to be living in a somewhat timeless state of being. If he found Nienor along the Teiglin and took her into his care, she could have been encompassed by his "state of timelessness".

The rest of the story actually seems fairly easy from there.
Nourishment for the imagination...I like it.


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## Ent (Sep 21, 2022)

Now THERE's a creative 'short story' to write up for posting in our upcoming 'fan-fic' section 😃 (hint).

This is from PoME Page 374: from the 'prophecy at the end of the old Tale of Turambar"...
"The Gods of Death would not open their doors to Turin and Nienori (old name of Nienor), that Urin and Mavwin (Hurin and Morwin) went to Mandos, and that their prayers:
- 'came even to Manwe, and the Gods had mercy on their unhappy fate, so that those twain, Turin and Nienori entered into Fos'Almir, the bath of flame, evan as Urwendi and her maidens had done in ages past before the first rising of the sun, and so were all their sorrows and stains washed away, and they dwelt as shining Valar among the blessed ones, and now the love of that brother and sister is very fair; but Turambar indeed shall stand beside Fionwe in the Great Wrack, and Melko and his drakes shall curse the sword of Mormakil.' 

So extract from that what you will in terms of 'possibilities'... 😛


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 21, 2022)

Appreciating the support and interest this topic has gotten. I honestly must confess that I expected an immediate: "That's impossible!" sort of reply, and no more speech of any sort about it thereafter. Yet nevertheless, my urge to post it was too great, and I did despite the rather skeptical views I assumed would be given.

Since it says that Turin would stand beside Fionwe, one must be led to thought and wonder of the fate of Nienor. I still do expect that in any case, it could well be explained by Tom Bombadil's essence of a boundless existence could enable Nienor to leave behind all that had ever disturbed her, and could make her to be free and reborn, a "River Daughter" for it was by the river that she fell, and by the river that her every hope faded, so then too it should be by the river she would rise once more. 

As for being 'Valar' I have long harbored the view that Tom Bombadil (and possibly Goldberry) could be some sort of guised Valar if you may. As they have absolutely no attachment to anything INCLUDING the Ring which Maiarin races and any other seemed drawn to.

So in conclusion:
Yep. I still think it is a possibility.

Perhaps I will create a fan-fic on it, if it would be something that would bring leastward moderate enjoyment for someone, including myself.


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## Ent (Sep 21, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> if it would be something that would bring leastward moderate enjoyment for someone, including myself.


Indeed. And there is no doubt it will.
Enjoyment from some, and perhaps vitriol from others.
Such is always the case with the race of man. 
Yet the enterprising and dedicated do not let such stand in the way of achievement and/or accomplishment. 

"Write, or write not. There is no 'perhaps'." 😁 (Snatched and twisted from Yoda.)


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## Eljorahir (Sep 21, 2022)

I enjoy these kinds of musings. For me, they're like a puzzle: How does the theory fit with things Tolkien wrote on the page, and where does it come up against obstacles? If the obstacles are too much, then it must be abandoned. If not, have fun with it!

Sometimes I find it helpful to ask the question like this: If Tolkien himself wanted to write an additional story making Nienor = Goldberry, what would that story look like? Could he make it work? (My answer is usually: Of course, he could!)


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 21, 2022)

Indeed! I will be first reviewing the chapters in The Lord of the Rings and other books with relevance to Tom. Then the creativity may flow.


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