# Thoughts Upon the Origin and Awakening of the Ents:



## Ent (Aug 3, 2022)

*THE ORIGIN AND BEING OF THE ENTS AND AWAKENED TREES*:
(8/6/2022 - This post has now been revised a bit to include clarification between the Ents and the Trees and the Elves' work upon both.)

There seems to be no dispute that the Ents are of Yavanna’s origination during the Song of the Ainur before the beginning. To use my own phrase (because I’ve not seen it used elsewhere), they could rightly be called “children of Yavanna” if one wished to do so.

However, for some reason there seems to be a debate concerning the Elves’ involvement in the Ents' awakening - their ‘coming to life’ as some seem to think the Elves actually did - creating them - and that the event Treebeard shares in the Lord Of The Rings is incompatible with the statements of the Silmarillion account. We will respond to that perceived inconsistency in this writing.

The following background is provided from Quenta Silmarillion: Chapter 2: _Of Aulë and Yavanna_:.
It includes text, and brief commentary, so the needed material is available without need for looking it up.

I include the origin (making) of the Dwarves by Aulë, as well, to demonstrate that Ilúvatar brings forth things consistent with his own will and desire, in his own way, and at his own time, which will be important later in the discussion.

*The Dwarves’ Origin*:
We know Aulë made (not created) the Dwarves, and Eru accepted them, though to be held in a state of sleep until their time for awakening. 

We read:
“But Ilúvatar spoke again and said: ‘Even as I gave being to the thoughts of the Ainur at the beginning of the World, so now I have taken up thy desire and given to it a place therein;’”

Ilúvatar, applies the words “…so now”. This brings his actions into current time – the present tense. Here, he actually _adds to_ that which he is and will continue to be ‘showing forth’ from the original Singing of the Ainur. (It is progressive). The dwarves were not a part or result of those original creative themes.

An argument might be made against this, since Ilúvatar starts with the words “Even as…”. Some may want to see he thus “equates” his creative decision then with his creative decision regarding the Dwarves. That is, it is all part of the original Song themes. 

Not so, however.
The meaning is: “Just as I determined THEN to give being to the thoughts sung at that time, so NOW at this time I give being to your desire regarding these dwarves.” He separates his actions “in time”.

Again, as Aulë begs for mercy, since he was doing what he should not be (rebellious as he was then), Ilúvatar says “‘Thy offer I accepted even as it was made. Dost thou not see that these things have *now* a life of their own, and speak with their own voices?”(1)

The life is granted by grace at Aulë’s humility. From this we see Eru does things according to his own will and desire, including grace, as he wishes. This will be important later when we get to the Elves’ involvement.

*The Ents’ Origin*:
Yavanna sought out Manwe as we know, because of her concern over all her own thought added at the original Song, and what great harm would be done to the things of the earth, driven mostly because Aulë’s made her aware of his making of the Dwarves (and Eru’s ultimate acceptance of them into the living). They would have no love for living and growing things. She falters in her faith in Eru's and his declaration that all that was sung would BE.

We read:
. “And she was not appeased, but grieved in heart, fearing what might be done upon Middle-earth in days to come. Therefore she went before Manwë, and she did not betray the counsel of Aulë, but she said: ‘King of Arda, is it true, as Aulë hath said to me, that the Children when they come shall have dominion over all the things of my labour, to do as they will therewith?’
. ‘It is true,’ said Manwë. ‘But why dost thou ask, for thou hadst no need of the teaching of Aulë?’(1)

We know the trees are of her making in the Singing, because she says to Manwë:
. "All my works are dear to me."

. She goes on:
“All have their worth,’ said Yavanna, ‘and each contributes to the worth of the others. But the kelvar can flee or defend themselves, whereas the olvar that grow cannot. And among these I hold trees dear. Long in the growing, swift shall they be in the felling, and unless they pay toll with fruit upon bough little mourned in their passing. So I see in my thought. Would that the trees might speak on behalf of all things that have roots, and punish those that wrong them!’
. ‘This is a strange thought,’ said Manwë.
. ‘_*Yet it was in the Song*,’ _said Yavanna. ‘For while thou wert in the heavens and with Ulmo built the clouds and poured out the rains, I lifted up the branches of great trees to receive them, and some sang to Ilúvatar amid the wind and the rain.’(1)

So Yavanna’s desire for ‘talking trees’ was not a ‘later desire’, but was granted by Ilúvatar from the beginning, to be shown forth in its time. 

Manwë later brings the clarification provided him by Ilúvatar back to Yavanna: -
. “Then Manwë sat silent, and the thought of Yavanna that she had put into his heart grew and unfolded; and it was beheld by Ilúvatar. Then it seemed to Manwë that the Song rose once more about him, and he heeded now many things therein that though he had heard them he had not heeded before. And at last the Vision was renewed, but it was not now remote, for he was himself within it, and yet he saw that all was upheld by the hand of Ilúvatar; and the hand entered in, and from it came forth many wonders that had until then been hidden from him in the hearts of the Ainur. -
. Then Manwë awoke, and he went down to Yavanna upon Ezellohar, and he sat beside her beneath the Two Trees. And Manwë said: ‘O Kementári, Eru hath spoken, saying: “Do then any of the Valar suppose that I did not hear *all the Song*, even the least sound of the least voice? Behold! When the Children awake, then the _thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, _and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared.(1)

The origin of the Ents, a combination of Trees with “spirits from afar”, is in Yavanna’s thoughts as her part of the Song before anything is brought forth.

Again we see Eru acts in different ways as it suits him - as he sees fit!

*The Perceived Inconsistency*:
*The 'Awakening' of the Ents and of the Tree**s** "by the Elves"*: Here, we look to the Lord Of The Rings.

From this some people seem to feel that the Elves are 'creating'. Some also seem to feel that the Elves 'awaken' both the Ents, and the Trees.

Let's see what's really happening.

Fangorn speaks:
. ‘Some of my KIN look just like trees now, and need something great to rouse them; and they speak only in whispers. But some of my TREES are limb-lithe, and many can talk to me. *Elves began it, of course, waking TREES up and teaching them to speak *and learning their tree-talk. They always wished to talk to everything, the old Elves did.(2)

Elsewhere, Fangorn says:
. "...it was the Elves that cured US (Ents) of dumbness long ago, and that was a great gift that cannot be forgotten." (Note: 'dumbness' here means 'muteness', not 'ignorance.)

Let's look at this carefully.
Fangorn makes a very clear distinction between the Ents and what Elves do for them, and the Trees. And in neither case does he indicate the Elves 'create', but they 'cure' or 'awaken'. 

As was noted in SIL above, the Children of Illuvatar would awake first, then Yavanna’s thought would go forward bringing the ‘spirits from afar’, some of which would dwell in BOTH the _kelvar and the olvar. _(This should be noted, as it explains much about other things in the lore.)

This statement by Treebeard in LoTR, should work _TOGETHER WITH_ SIL regarding the showing forth of Eru as declared in the Song. There should be no inconsistency for debate.

And there isn't. 
How then? 

It is said by some “The elves cannot create life, therefore this is irreconcilable.” 

Others have said “Tolkien himself said Treebeard was just wrong when he said that.” (To which I answer ‘please show me where, I cannot find it – though he DID write in multiple of his letters that “evil cannot create.”. So I won't deal with this part until I see it really needs to be.) 

So dealing with the Elves and their 'creating' - the solution is really quite simple.

Are the Elves really ‘creating’ here, or do the trees already have life in themselves?

Both the living trees and the living beasts (animals) have already been brought forth by Eru. The Elves are not ‘creating’ life in the Ents or trees at all.

The 'spirits from afar' indwelt trees and they BECAME Ents. (No longer just 'trees'). In this case, the Elvs are Eru’s TOOL used to ‘cure them of dumbness’ in their time, they already having been inhabited by ‘the spirits from afar’ drawn by the thought of Yavanna. 

In the case of the Trees, we have a different picture. The Elves were Eru's TOOL to actually 'awaken' these (not 'give them life'), just as Treebeard said, and teach them to talk and learn their 'tree-talk.'

But again, the Trees already had life in themselves. The Ents were 'creating' nothing.

So the Elves in both cases, with slightly different application, are Eru's TOOLS in the next step of the 'showing forth.'

The Elves' powers to speak, to cure of muteness, to teach, and to 'awaken' are simply gifts given by Eru in his creation of his children.

This use of beings as tools in Eru's work is, by the way, completely consistent with J.R.R. Tolkien’s background in faith which many declare ”colors his works unavoidably.” (I do not expound upon this here.) 

*CONCLUSIONS*:
1. The Dwarves originate from the making of Aulë then the ‘permission of life’, granted by Ilúvatar, after the original Song - put to sleep by Ilúvatar (after they were already given life), and set aside to be “shown forth in their time” along with the rest.

2. The trees arise out of Yavanna's addition to the Song. They are living things.

3. The Ents are trees indwelt by the 'spirits from afar' that Yavanna's thought calls forth. (other creatures and growing things of the earth are also indwelt by those ‘spirits from afar’). The Ents could accurately be called “children of Yavanna”. 

4. The Elves were Ilúvatar’s tool – or agent – in the curing of the Ents of dumbness (muteness) following their indwelling by the ’spirits from afar’. Before that inhabiting they were living Trees.

5. The Elves were also Ilúvatar’s tool in 'awakening' other of the living trees, teaching them to talk, and learning their tree' talk. Eru is able to do as he wishes with regard to ‘how things are shown forth’. 

6. There is no conflict between the statements in The Silmarillion and the Lord Of The Rings regarding how the Ents originate or awaken.

(1) Tolkien, J.R.R.. The Silmarillion: HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.)
(2) Tolkien, J.R.R.. The Lord of the Rings: One Volume HMH Books. Kindle Edition.


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## Elthir (Aug 4, 2022)

I'll try a bit of a *hasty* response, but my take is that the Elves began waking trees up, taught trees
to speak, and learned their "tree-talk" -- because the old Elves wished to talk to "everything" --
including Ents as well, who the Elves cured of dumbness.

Entish itself was described as a language "unlike all others" in Appendix F (and not to be confused
with fragments of Elf-speech strung together in Ent-fashion). It was also said to be simpler in the
Elder Days (at least in a draft letter, letter number 247).


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## Ent (Aug 4, 2022)

In my 'hastiness', and having no responses prior to this one from friend @Elthir, I confess:
I grew a pair of leaves, tidied it up a bit, and posted this in 3 other places as an "Essay". 
My assumption, since it hadn't been shredded to date, was that it was close enough in consideration to pass along.

SO... I am "editing" the above by replacing it all with the "essay" format I posted elsewhere, "just because". (I THINK i can do that.)

Feel free to continue to remark away... I will have it replaced shortly.



Elthir said:


> I'll try a bit of a *hasty* response, but my take is that the Elves began waking trees up, taught trees
> to speak, and learned their "tree-talk" -- because the old Elves wished to talk to "everything" --
> including Ents as well, who the Elves cured of dumbness.
> 
> ...



Indeed, this is the reason Treebeard cites in LoTR. It deals with their 'awakening', rather than with their 'origin' as some try to make it apply to.
From the Elves' perspective, that was their thinking, unknown to them that their desire was given them by Illuvatar, to act as his tools in the event.
It was also the 'fact' from the point of view of the Ents, as they did not know their own 'origins' either... only the events of their awakening.

Precisely why there is no "disconnect" between SIL and LoTR's statements, as some try to claim.


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## Elthir (Aug 4, 2022)

And just for possible clarity, my position (so far at least) is that the Elves did not awaken Ents. 
They cured the Ents of dumbness.

The Elves began "awaking" trees however, wanting to talk to them as well.


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## Ent (Aug 4, 2022)

Elthir said:


> And just for possible clarity, my position (so far at least) is that the Elves did not awaken Ents.
> They cured the Ents of dumbness.
> 
> The Elves began "awaking" trees however, wanting to talk to them as well.


OK thank you for the clarification.



Elthir said:


> And just for possible clarity, my position (so far at least) is that the Elves did not awaken Ents.
> They cured the Ents of dumbness.
> 
> The Elves began "awaking" trees however, wanting to talk to them as well.



Pondering this further, and doing a deeper dive into the exact language used in SIL, I can see different possible alternatives to what I have written, one of which may lead in the direction of the position you hold.

What i hear you saying is the Ents are those who were 'trees indwelt by the spirits from afar.' These still needed to be 'cured from dumbness' by the Elves. however. (I can't quite determine where the source of this need for 'curing' comes from however.)

SEPARATELY from that, the Elves also 'awakened (regular) trees' that hadn't been 'indwelt' so they could teach them to speak, and learn their tree-talk. 

Fangorn does make a clear distinction between his "kin" who have become sluggish, and "his trees" that are limb-lithe and can only be heard in whispers.

Do I have your distinction correct here? 

Conclusions 1,2 and 4 hold up in any case, but text and conclusion 3 would need revision under any of the alternatives I now see possible.


Can you tell me from what text or how we arrive at the need for the Ents to be 'cured of dumbness' by the Elves? 
The way I currently read it, the 'spirits from afar' would have cared for that, and I don't see the Elves involved in that part - only with the dealing with the (regular ole') trees.

Thanks.


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## Elthir (Aug 4, 2022)

Hi. I'm basing some of my post above on Treebeard's comment about him taking more kindly to Elves than to others, the Ent noting that the Elves cured the Ents of dumbness long ago, *"and that was a great gift that cannot be forgotten" *(chapter _Treebeard_).

Also, the description in Appendix F: *"They were known to the Eldar in ancient days, and to the Eldar indeed ascribed not their own language but the desire for speech."* Appendix F, _Of Other Races_

If I have time, I'll explain my fuller position, as it involves some "stuff" outside of _The Lord of the Rings_ itself.


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## Ent (Aug 4, 2022)

Elthir said:


> Hi. I'm basing some of my post above on Treebeard's comment about him taking more kindly to Elves than to others, the Ent noting that the Elves cured the Ents of dumbness long ago, *"and that was a great gift that cannot be forgotten" *(chapter _Treebeard_).
> 
> Also, the description in Appendix F: *"They were known to the Eldar in ancient days, and to the Eldar indeed ascribed not their own language but the desire for speech."* Appendix F, _Of Other Races_
> 
> If I have time, I'll explain my fuller position, as it involves some "stuff" outside of _The Lord of the Rings_ itself.



Thank you for this much as a start..! 
If you find time so be it. For now, I'm off to rethinking based on the new thoughts formulating as it is.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 4, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> Pondering this further, and doing a deeper dive into the exact language used in SIL, I can see different possible alternatives to what I have written, one of which may lead in the direction of the position you hold.
> 
> What i hear you saying is the Ents are those who were 'trees indwelt by the spirits from afar.' These still needed to be 'cured from dumbness' by the Elves. however. (I can't quite determine where the source of this need for 'curing' comes from however.)
> 
> ...


This may be a rather far-fetched thought yet-- is there any truth to the belief that Elves cured Ents of dumbness, and the Ents awoke the trees? This has long been a thought of mine-- and with this thread's topic, I thought it worth mention.


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## Ent (Aug 4, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> This may be a rather far-fetched thought yet-- is there any truth to the belief that Elves cured Ents of dumbness, and the Ents awoke the trees? This has long been a thought of mine-- and with this thread's topic, I thought it worth mention.


Not too far fetched. Tree beard did say the Elves cured them of dumbness. 
But he also says it was the Elves that awakened the trees. 
Nowhere do we see any statement of the Ents doing anything more than being tree-shepherds.
(And taking a very long time to say anything or decide anything. We would not make good present day employees.)


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 4, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> Nowhere do we see any statement of the Ents doing anything more than being tree-shepherds.


Do shepherds not wake their flocks in the morning and put them to rest at eve? I think it would only be an aspect of the job, but I may be wrong.


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## Elthir (Aug 5, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> (. . .) Tree beard did say the Elves cured them of dumbness.



Yes, and (though I know you know) Treebeard added that this was a great gift that cannot be forgotten. 

Also, there's an "unpublished" draft letter (but now published by Hammond and Scull) that reads, in part: *"The Ents claimed to be the oldest "speaking people" after the Elves [illegible] until taught the art of speech by the Elves . . ."*

Granted, we can't read the illegible part, but this all seems pretty solid to me, along with Appendix F (not that you said otherwise, but for the thread in general).

🐾


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## Ent (Aug 5, 2022)

Elthir said:


> Yes, and (though I know you know) Treebeard added that this was a great gift that cannot be forgotten.
> 
> Also, there's an "unpublished" draft letter (but now published by Hammond and Scull) that reads, in part: *"The Ents claimed to be the oldest "speaking people" after the Elves [illegible] until taught the art of speech by the Elves . . ."*
> 
> ...



In your view here, is Treebeard speaking of "dumbness" in the sense of "muteness", or of "ignorance".



Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Do shepherds not wake their flocks in the morning and put them to rest at eve? I think it would only be an aspect of the job, but I may be wrong.



They might. The role of a "shepherd" in the sense that Tolkien's faith and the original word meant, was to "utterly care for the flock - its feeding, health and protection in every way". 

But I don't think of that "waking" as the same "awakening" that is in view here generally.

It all has to do with the "awakening" necessary to 'show forth' Yavanna's singing that there would be protectors for the flora and fauna against the Dwarves primarily, but also the Elves and Men who would "still need wood" (in the case of the Trees of which she was especially fond) as Aule said at the end of their discussion. But the 'spirits from afar' indwelt other of the flora and fauna as well, for the same purposes. (Of which we hear little, unless.... (more on this later.))

The role of the Shepherds includes to ultimately protect them when needed against the ABUSES of all the rest of the Being. 

This is partially why Treebeard was so enraged (and if you will, angry with himself), when the full abuses of Saruman finally came home to him. He, as the last "old Ent" (the other two being now useless for the work) had been lax (even failed) in his role of Shepherding.


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## Elthir (Aug 5, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> In your view here, is Treebeard speaking of "dumbness" in the sense of "muteness", or of "ignorance".



To me it's about speech -- going hand in hand (in my opinion) with Appendix F, that the Ents ascribed their desire for speech to the Eldar.

In reference to my "fuller" viewpoint above, I guess I really only wanted to add an external tidbit
with its possibly unanswerable question: what text came first with respect to external chronology?
The one that Christopher Tolkien used in the 1977 constructed Silmarillion --* or* JRRT's penciled note 
to draft letter 247, which reads:

*"No one knew whence they (Ents) came or first appeared. The High Elves said that the Valar did not mention them in the "Music". But some (Galadriel) were of the opinion that when Yavanna discovered the Mercy of Eru to Aule in the matter of the Dwarves, she besought Eru (through Manwe) asking him to give life to things made of living things not stone, ad that the Ents were either souls sent to inhabit trees, or else that slowly took the likeness of trees owing to their inborn love of trees. (Not all were good [words illegible]). The Ents thus had mastery over stone. The males were devoted to Orome, but the wives to Yavanna."*

Anyway, I'd also like to note that Christopher Tolkien edited the following from Tolkien's _Of The Ents And The Eagles_ (Yavanna speaking): "I lifted up the branches of great trees ( . . . ) and some sang to Eru amid the wind and the rain and the *glitter of the Sun*"


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 5, 2022)

Elthir said:


> To me it's about speech -- going hand in hand (in my opinion) with Appendix F, that the Ents ascribed their desire for speech to the Eldar.
> 
> In reference to my "fuller" viewpoint above, I guess I really only wanted to add an external tidbit
> with its possibly unanswerable question: what text came first with respect to external chronology?
> ...


Thanks for sharing this. Very interesting.


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## Ent (Aug 5, 2022)

Elthir said:


> To me it's about speech -- going hand in hand (in my opinion) with Appendix F, that the Ents ascribed their desire for speech to the Eldar.
> 
> In reference to my "fuller" viewpoint above, I guess I really only wanted to add an external tidbit
> with its possibly unanswerable question: what text came first with respect to external chronology?
> ...



OK thank you - I'll print all this out, bring it alongside, ponder it deeply and determine needed adjustments.
(As to the last little piece, Yavanna's words, unaltered, remain in the Silmarillion. 

... "I lifted up *t*he branches of great trees to receive them, and some sang to Ilúvatar amid the wind and the rain.’" 

it is this that this that, once she is aware of Ulmo's making of the Dwarves, drives her (in her lack of faith) to Manwe to ask about their protection as she had sung. and it is this that lets us know the Ents are a part of the original singing. (while Ulmo's Dwarves are not.)

Why is it a 'lack of faith' on her part? Because though Illuvatar had said "all that you have done I will show forth." She had no reason to question his words.

Each of them, in their own ways and in their own times, shows forth failures, as created beings. This is one of her biggest.

Anyway, much great stuff you have provided, and I thank you..!


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## Elthir (Aug 5, 2022)

I only added that Christopher Tolkien (not JRRT) edited out the *"glitter of the sun"* . . . as Christopher Tolkien explained that he did so 'cause it implied a _pre-existing sun_ . . . but in my opinion, so does Treebeard's (author published) tale about the Entwives!

Though that said, I understand why he did it for the Silmarillion itself.

Just an interesting aside I guess, since I had forgotten this edit


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 5, 2022)

Elthir said:


> I only added that Christopher Tolkien (not JRRT) edited out the *"glitter of the sun"* . . . Christopher Tolkien explained that he did so as it implied a _pre-existing sun_ . . . but in my opinion, so does Treebeard's (author published) tale about the Entwives!
> 
> Just an interesting aside I guess, since I had forgotten this edit


Intriguing... I agree with you, it does imply that... I will have to go revisit that tale about Entwives!


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## Ent (Aug 5, 2022)

Elthir said:


> I only added that Christopher Tolkien (not JRRT) edited out the *"glitter of the sun"* . . . as Christopher Tolkien explained that he did so 'cause it implied a _pre-existing sun_ . . . but in my opinion, so does Treebeard's (author published) tale about the Entwives!
> 
> Though that said, I understand why he did it for the Silmarillion itself.
> 
> Just an interesting aside I guess, since I had forgotten this edit



OK thanks... 

Hum Hroom... too much research too fast in too little time - on one of the other 3 places I posted it, other interesting discussion that (inevitably) brought the origin of Ungoliant into the mix so I'm adding thoughts about that as it's another item in progress.

Time to slow down, gather information, reassess it all, revise thinking, revise writing, and re-distribute.
Hard to do with as little discretionary time as this Ent has..!! (next time remind me not to post something in 4 places at once..!)

Most folks 'really like the essay, well put together, easy to follow the thought, very clear, well done" blah blah blah... but of course, it's slightly incorrect at points..! The primary purpose isn't changed, but the 'devil is in the details' and conclusion 3.

Then again.. this is exactly why I posted it... to get this sort of input.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 6, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> Most folks 'really like the essay, well put together, easy to follow the thought, very clear, well done" blah blah blah... but of course, it's slightly incorrect at points..! The primary purpose isn't changed, but the 'devil is in the details' and conclusion 3.
> 
> Then again.. this is exactly why I posted it... to get this sort of input.


Don't be too hard on yourself-- or too hasty! It takes a bit of time to get things right. You'll figure it all out, without doubt, and we shall all get to share in the fruits of your labor. It is superbly well done.


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## Bosko Took (Aug 6, 2022)

Just a thought, as general reader rather than expert, that JRRT loves to create temporal vistas, like the receding mysteries of a Victorian peep-show, by expressions such as _walked under the stars, oldest of all, the first_, and so on, and that over the whole corpus of his work, one may do better rather to _feel _this as a mood than attempt relating the various statements to an absolute timeline. Tom Bombadil is perhaps a case in point, so stubbornly resistant to analysis that even the dark power in Holly-wood and its servant, the renegade dwarf Jacksi, gave up on him. Beorn and the Pukel-men, even Farmer Maggot, are also touched, I think, by JRRT's constant re-visiting of this feeling, which is to do with deep time, the well of ages, forgetting and renewal; which leads one to Narsil, the sword that was broken, reforged. And so on. I write this without the text by me, so please forgive mis-quotes and other solecisms. Best wishes to all in the Great Fellowship, Peter


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 6, 2022)

Peter Fludde said:


> Just a thought, as general reader rather than expert, that JRRT loves to create temporal vistas, like the receding mysteries of a Victorian peep-show, by expressions such as _walked under the stars, oldest of all, the first_, and so on, and that over the whole corpus of his work, one may do better rather to _feel _this as a mood than attempt relating the various statements to an absolute timeline. Tom Bombadil is perhaps a case in point, so stubbornly resistant to analysis that even the dark power in Holly-wood and its servant, the renegade dwarf Jacksi, gave up on him. Beorn and the Pukel-men, even Farmer Maggot, are also touched, I think, by JRRT's constant re-visiting of this feeling, which is to do with deep time, the well of ages, forgetting and renewal; which leads one to Narsil, the sword that was broken, reforged. And so on. I write this without the text by me, so please forgive mis-quotes and other solecisms. Best wishes to all in the Great Fellowship, Peter


That is a very nice approach. I try to think of things as more vague and mystical at times, and indeed it is rewarding.

Thanks for sharing.

You may be right about Tom Bombadil-- somehow, he must have been created.


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## Ent (Aug 6, 2022)

Peter Fludde said:


> Just a thought, as general reader rather than expert, that JRRT loves to create temporal vistas, like the receding mysteries of a Victorian peep-show, by expressions such as _walked under the stars, oldest of all, the first_, and so on, and that over the whole corpus of his work, one may do better rather to _feel _this as a mood than attempt relating the various statements to an absolute timeline. Tom Bombadil is perhaps a case in point, so stubbornly resistant to analysis that even the dark power in Holly-wood and its servant, the renegade dwarf Jacksi, gave up on him. Beorn and the Pukel-men, even Farmer Maggot, are also touched, I think, by JRRT's constant re-visiting of this feeling, which is to do with deep time, the well of ages, forgetting and renewal; which leads one to Narsil, the sword that was broken, reforged. And so on. I write this without the text by me, so please forgive mis-quotes and other solecisms. Best wishes to all in the Great Fellowship, Peter



Peter, thanks for sharing this great point - one with which I agree fully. And the vistas he builds are incredible.

Too, there are many things Tolkien intentionally left open to the expansion of his universe.
Tom Bombadil is one - the oldest known living thing clearly voted to membership in "The Great Halls of Speculation" (from which our own Chief Cellrog, Squint-eyed Southerner now diligently keeps us posted on events within).

For myself, I love living with all things Tolkien, including the (intentionally or otherwise) unexplaned.

My purpose with this particular essay, (and some others I may yet write), is just to deal with areas where some 'perceived' inconsistencies in his writing are contested, but i think perhaps only due to certain misunderstandings when not grasping the language used at hand, and/or bringing all things to bear.

Examples include Treebeard's remark "some of my KIN" followed by "some of my trees", about which I think many of us don't at first see the clear distinction he's just made - and the issues of the Elves 'creating' life when in fact life already existed in the trees, and confusion over the issues of "awakening", "creating life", and the 'showing forth' in its time. Coupled of course with the indwelling of the 'spirits from afar'. 

After all, we remember Tolkien was an incredible master of the language, AND he had worked for decades on the issues of the creation and background of all things, before ever he brought Hobbit and LoTR into print. So "how things worked" were a well-established part of his mindset.

So when I see 'contentions' over issues, by nature I use those 'contentions' as launch points to see if they are reconcilable (now that I am able at last to dig into the Lore). If not, so be it. If so, well... what do I do then?

Given that my 'business life' has always been one requiring the bringing about of peace between people wherever possible (as a manager and director of many) that brings this arrogant Enting to think that if he writes stuff that helps folks see more of the total canvas Tolkien has painted, perhaps they can re-adjust their perception of the painting accordingly.

And it is my hope that this particular group does not mind my abusing them in this fashion, posting some of my work/thoughts before they're properly fully developed, so I can refine and adjust (or abandon) as needed. And hopefully that, BEFORE posting elsewhere. But in this case I got hasty - though I do say some of the comments made elsewhere were contributive to the corrections and adjustments needed.

Even with this particular small "harmonic contention" Tolkien has painted into his work great, far-reaching vistas and a beautiful tapestry that extends well beyond just the immediate issues and events of the Ents, Trees, Elves, and creating issues as we think on its larger meanings and applications. (I do not name a few here as this post is becoming an epistle of its own as well..!)

All this just to let you know somewhat of 'where this Enting comes from' in the wide world of things.

To all: I have revised this post a bit to incorporate further thoughts and clarifications, for which I am particularly thankful to our own @Elthir, and one person from a Facebook cite.

Please feel free to question, contribute, suggest, etc.

@Elthir, if I have missed the 'simplistic side' at least, of some of your thought into the matter, do let me know.

Group - thank you for allowing me to abuse you in this way as I try to accelerate my pace of 'learning' in this whole universe of Tolkien's creation. Ents, as you know, though they have long memories, are not among the Wise, and can only know what they know from observation and experience.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 6, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> Group - thank you for allowing me to abuse you in this way as I try to accelerate my pace of 'learning' in this whole universe of Tolkien's creation. Ents, as you know, though they have long memories, are not among the Wise, and can only know what they know from observation and experience.


Abuse? In no way have you done that. It is a noble quest indeed, the more to learn. I myself have taken educating myself on Tolkien's works very seriously, and this Forum has been more aid to me than nearly anything else. Though not among the Wise, you Ents have wisdom, gathered from experience, and long years of Time. 

I look forward to seeing all of your research-- especially displayed in verse.


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## Ent (Aug 6, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Abuse? In no way have you done that. It is a noble quest indeed, the more to learn. I myself have taken educating myself on Tolkien's works very seriously, and this Forum has been more aid to me than nearly anything else. Though not among the Wise, you Ents have wisdom, gathered from experience, and long years of Time.
> 
> I look forward to seeing all of your research-- especially displayed in verse.



Thanks. And this is indeed the 'next step' now, isn't it...
Getting this into verse. 
I think it's close enough now in its 'accuracy' to begin that, and if other sharing produces alteration, it can easily be incorporated.

On we go into the 'versifying' part... (the love of which 'twas also the Elves' imparting this particular Enting.)

Just a note on "Of the Ents And the Trees"

Putting this into verse does progress. 9 stanzas are now 'complete', (Revised already many times.)

We have moved from initial creation of the Ainur through Eru's gentle rebuke/reminder through Manwë to Yavanna that "none of the Valar" should question whether he had heard ALL the song! (That point that deals with her momentary failure of recall and 'lack of faith'.) 

This thing remains a testament to my ability to fulfill my own statement: _How much we can say briefly, if we know words..!_

The core of the next set of stanzas is laid down. Hoping to complete them promptly.

Not sure yet whether we have just 6 more stanzas to go, or 9 more. I'm suspecting 9, because I need to fold in that the Elves were given the power to awaken things by Eru... which I recently found, but wasn't in a position to jot down at the time. So I need to locate it again.

Have a good day everyone.


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## Tuor Cassidy (Sep 2, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> *THE ORIGIN AND BEING OF THE ENTS AND AWAKENED TREES*:
> (8/6/2022 - This post has now been revised a bit to include clarification between the Ents and the Trees and the Elves' work upon both.)
> 
> There seems to be no dispute that the Ents are of Yavanna’s origination during the Song of the Ainur before the beginning. To use my own phrase (because I’ve not seen it used elsewhere), they could rightly be called “children of Yavanna” if one wished to do so.
> ...


Enting, 
I enjoyed the essay and the questions arisen from it. I only read a few of the comments made by other members after you posted as I wanted to come a place within my head without influence. So forgive me for any redundancy. 
in terms of the origins of the Ents and trees. We know this:
Manwe said to Yavanna after she came to him worried of the damage of the need for wood that would arise from building and hewing of axes. Manwe said that Aule’s trees would be mightier and higher than any other tree and also says “in the forest shall walk the Shepard’s of the trees.” Yavanna then is pleased and says “Eru is bountiful.” As she now knows there will be those that can protect and shall be feared!

So I see from this the separation of trees and ents as well as harkening back to the original theme that Manwe is assuring her he is aware also. So Ents were walking and protecting well before the awakening of the first born. But I also see how the first Elves whom is stated to love in naming of things they saw and and in speaking in general. Tolkiens profession along with his love of languages obviously was second nature to the Eldar. So I believe they brought out the language of the Ents by exposure.
It seems like Tolkien believed the elves true “magic” was more in art, lore and ingenuity such as the silmarilli along with lembas and limpe being food and beverage which seems like magic to other races than the elves. Elves were also one with the Earth and will exist until end of days unless slain so they are in a way kindred to all living things. 

Again, great topic and well thought! I plan to read upon it more... When it comes to the dwarves I am inline with your thinking. Eru just couldn’t have the Seven Fathers live and exist first as it would be against his design but certainly allows for it ultimately as he sees Aules love for both the dwarves and Eru’s designs whilst seeing humility from Aule. He knew the creation was a creation of pure intent.
This is great! Twas what I came here for! Thank you!


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## Ent (Sep 2, 2022)

[email protected] said:


> I plan to read upon it more


Thank you for the input, and keep it coming.
I want to coalesce all thoughts, check all sources, verify all words, word groupings, intents and meanings, and make sure it's all fit together correctly.
To that end I'm copying out all comments made, pondering and researching, and linking in the source citations (which will, as usual, be numbered and stuck into the Essay, with all necessary text etc. The references may actually end up being an 'appendix' to the essay if I feel enough full text is needed to provide the support and justification.)

Then stand by for news, because I've been gathering on the Eagles for awhile in preparation for the next.

But that one will be different. With the Eagles I want to pull together all their Contributions from beginning through the 3rd age.

I don't know I've seen anywhere where there has been written a focus on their contributions event by event and age by age. And they contributed a lot.

The beginning title is "Of the Contributions of the Eagles". (It will, by nature, need to include some small parts concerning their origin, family tree as we know it, etc. And of course there is one point where folks disagree about the Eagles, which will be referenced, with alternative thoughts presented, but no conclusion drawn by the writer. The reader will need to sort it out for themselves.)

Anyway, i'm looking forward to the Eagles as well... and the verse for them that will follow will also be of an entirely different nature than the verse for the Ents and Trees, just due to the differing nature and purpose of the information being provided. (Historical verse vs. expositional verse I call it, though it's my own nomenclature.)

On we go.


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## Tuor Cassidy (Sep 3, 2022)

Enting, I admire Your dedication to accuracy and it seems that you feel a responsibility to opening any questions to the work itself, so as to leave no leaf unturned in your examination. This would be surely be appreciated by JRRT as well as CRT and all those who have responded with great feedback! Thank you again for sharing this with me and welcoming my interpretations as well!


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