# How old did the Drúedain live??



## ZehnWaters (Oct 18, 2021)

And did the ones from Númenor have their lives extended?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 18, 2021)

As you seem to be familiar with the story in Note 7 to the essay on them on UT, you must know the statement "Alas! they were not long-lived" in that essay, and Christopher's underlining of the point in one of his notes. I know of no explicit statement of a specific life-expectancy.

Or of anything relating to an extention of it in Numenor.


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 18, 2021)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> As you seem to be familiar with the story in Note 7 to the essay on them on UT, you must know the statement "Alas! they were not long-lived" in that essay, and Christopher's underlining of the point in one of his notes. I know of no explicit statement of a specific life-expectancy.


It's been some time since I've read Unfinished Tales.


Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Or of anything relating to an extention of it in Numenor.


That's too bad. I know the Númenórean Haleth didn't live as long as the Númenórean Hadorians (per NoME). Even extended their lives might have still been relatively short.

Hm. This makes me wonder why the Hobbits (a branch of the race of Men) had such long lives. Did they not get corrupted by Melkor?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 18, 2021)

My impression is that the Hobbits were "overlooked" by most -- they're not "mentioned in records" until T.A. 1050 -- so it wouldn't surprise me to learn that Morgoth never noticed them.

There may be something more in HoME XII, but I don't have time to check through it at the moment.


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## ArnorianRanger (Oct 18, 2021)

If they had never been corrupted by Morgoth it would seem that the ability of Hobbits being able to resist the evil temptation of the One Ring (and evil temptation in general considering no Hobbit had ever killed another in the Shire by the time of _Return of the King_) is quite deeply rooted.

Thanks,

ArnorianRanger


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## ZehnWaters (Aug 30, 2022)

ArnorianRanger said:


> If they had never been corrupted by Morgoth it would seem that the ability of Hobbits being able to resist the evil temptation of the One Ring (and evil temptation in general considering no Hobbit had ever killed another in the Shire by the time of _Return of the King_) is quite deeply rooted.


That's odd, since (if memory serves) there were rumours in Hobbiton that Frodo's mother tried to drown his father and they both ended up drowning together.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 30, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> That's odd, since (if memory serves) there were rumours in Hobbiton that Frodo's mother tried to drown his father and they both ended up drowning together.


Who were Frodo's parents? I have not known of this.


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## ZehnWaters (Aug 30, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> Who were Frodo's parents? I have not known of this.


Drogo and Primula. I swear it's mentioned at the beginning of The Lord of the Rings but I could be wrong. It's been many years since I read them. I mean, it wasn't true. It was just that most Hobbits were scared of water and so they all thought the Brandybucks were odd and suspicious for boating.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 30, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> Drogo and Primula. I swear it's mentioned at the beginning of The Lord of the Rings but I could be wrong. It's been many years since I read them. I mean, it wasn't true. It was just that most Hobbits were scared of water and so they all thought the Brandybucks were odd and suspicious for boating.


Ah - I see. I never really read the first half of _The Fellowship of the Ring_ - I started from the second half, then went to the first half of _The Two Towers _after that before I stopped reading LOTR and went way back to _The Silmarillion_, which I have finished recently.

Thanks - I suppose I have much to ponder about...


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## Starbrow (Aug 30, 2022)

Sandyman is gossiping about Frodo's parents when he says:


> And _I_ heard she pushed him in, and he pulled her in after him.


The fact that such a thing could be gossiped about would imply that one hobbit killing another was not unheard of.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 30, 2022)

Starbrow said:


> The fact that such a thing could be gossiped about would imply that one hobbit killing another was not unheard of.


As it should be!


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 31, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> As it should be!


One hobbit killing another? Sounds like a Kinslaying resurfacing to me...


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## Tar-Elenion (Aug 31, 2022)

In Letter 214 the death of (the "not universally beloved") Lalia the Great (also known as "the Fat") is written about.
She was the 'matriarch' of the Took clan after the death of her husband, Fortinbras II, and customarily would be wheeled to the Great Door of the Great Smials to take the morning air. One morning "her clumsy attendant let the heavy chair run over the threshold and tipped Lalia down the flight of steps into the garden", which caused her death.
Though the Tooks attempted to keep the whole matter quiet it "was widely rumoured that the attendant was Pearl (Pippin's sister)". Pearl was excluded from the accession ceremony and feast of Ferumbras (Lalia's son) to the headship of the Tooks, but was later seen wearing "a splendid necklace of her name-jewels that had long lain in the hoard of the Thains."


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## Ent (Aug 31, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> It's been some time since I've read Unfinished Tales.
> 
> That's too bad. I know the Númenórean Haleth didn't live as long as the Númenórean Hadorians (per NoME). Even extended their lives might have still been relatively short.
> 
> Hm. This makes me wonder why the Hobbits (a branch of the race of Men) had such long lives. Did they not get corrupted by Melkor?



Hobbits had long lives? I thought they were pretty normal.
Bilbo at 131 was the longest lived hobbit. And that was due to the ring. Behind him was Gerontius at 130 years, naturally lived but quite remarkable. 

Anyway, another item (longevity of Númenóreans) added to my list.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 31, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> Anyway, another item (longevity of Númenóreans) added to my list.


Truly, I wonder how thou shalt deal with so many items upon thy list...


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## Ent (Aug 31, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> Truly, I wonder how thou shalt deal with so many items upon thy list...



Slowly, steadfastly, and thoroughly. 😁 

I expect I will leave this existence with a very long list of unexplored subjects remaining. 
By the way... I also know I will die at a desk. It will either be my work desk, or my study desk.
(Obviously, my desks are ones at which I stand up..!)


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 31, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> I expect I will leave this existence with a very long list of unexplored subjects remaining.
> By the way... I also know I will die at a desk. It will either be my work desk, or my study desk.


Unfortunate that doth indeed sound, leastways for my part...


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## Ent (Aug 31, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> Drogo and Primula. I swear it's mentioned at the beginning of The Lord of the Rings but I could be wrong. It's been many years since I read them. I mean, it wasn't true. It was just that most Hobbits were scared of water and so they all thought the Brandybucks were odd and suspicious for boating.



Your memory is good. Drogo, great grandson of Balbo Baggins, and Primula, youngest child of Gorbadoc Brandybuck (known as 'Broadbelt'.)


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## Ent (Aug 31, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> That's odd, since (if memory serves) there were rumours in Hobbiton that Frodo's mother tried to drown his father and they both ended up drowning together.



- "And Mr. Drogo was staying at Brandy Hall with his father-in-law, old Master Gorbadoc, as he often did after his marriage (him being partial to his vittles, and old Gorbadoc keeping a mighty generous table); and he went out boating on the Brandywine River; and he and his wife were drownded, and poor Mr. Frodo only a child and all.’
- ‘I’ve heard they went on the water after dinner in the moonlight,’ said Old Noakes; ‘and it was Drogo’s weight as sunk the boat.’
- ‘And I heard she pushed him in, and he pulled her in after him,’ said Sandyman, the Hobbiton miller. ‘
- You shouldn’t listen to all you hear, Sandyman,’ said the Gaffer, who did not much like the miller. ‘There isn’t no call to go talking of pushing and pulling. Boats are quite tricky enough for those that sit still without looking further for the cause of trouble."

I would echo the Gaffer's last comment.
It seems HOW they were drowned in that boating accident is a Great Halls issue... THAT they drowned in a boating accident however is certain.
So again you are right. There were rumors.


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## Ent (Aug 31, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> And did the ones from Númenor have their lives extended?



Having done some small research on the Topic and the initial question here, sir ZehnWaters, I have not been able to locate any mention of a life-expectancy for the Drúedain, nor any indication that those from Númenór had their live expectancy extended.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 31, 2022)

I'll just add here that the drowning in the Brandywine fits into the common pattern of the somewhat mysterious birth of the hero; it is often associated with water, often an apocalyptic flood. The death in a boating accident is the Low Mimetic Shire's "plausible" version of this Romance trope.

The conflicting stories and rumors presented at the very beginning of the story establish the mystery, and help to single Frodo out as an unusual person, fated for a uniquely heroic role. He has been symbolically "born" out of the waters of the river.

As, in fact, has Aragorn.


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## ZehnWaters (Aug 31, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> Hobbits had long lives? I thought they were pretty normal.
> Bilbo at 131 was the longest lived hobbit. And that was due to the ring. Behind him was Gerontius at 130 years, naturally lived but quite remarkable.
> 
> Anyway, another item (longevity of Númenóreans) added to my list.


Compared to men of non-Númenorean descent, yes.


Well-aged Enting said:


> Having done some small research on the Topic and the initial question here, sir ZehnWaters, I have not been able to locate any mention of a life-expectancy for the Drúedain, nor any indication that those from Númenór had their live expectancy extended.


That's too bad. Seems like a snub by Eru.


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## Ent (Aug 31, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> Compared to men of non-Númenorean descent, yes.



I have no comparative to conclude this at present.
What is and where do we find the average life expectancy of the non-Númenoreans, and what and where for the Hobbits?
I've been looking without success.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 31, 2022)

Hmm... Did Tolkien actually write one?


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## ZehnWaters (Aug 31, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> I have no comparative to conclude this at present.
> What is and where do we find the average life expectancy of the non-Númenoreans, and what and where for the Hobbits?
> I've been looking without success.


Tolkien Gateway though I suppose I've never checked their sources. I went through the kings of Rohan and how old they were at death and compared them with age ranges of known hobbits. That the old Took was given the name at 130 and Aldor, king of Rohan, the same title at 101. Common hobbits regularly lived into their 90s with nobles living even longer (Merry is well past his 90s). Yet even some of the kings of Rohan only lived until their 70s.

I suppose also some supposition based on when they were considered "adults" (33).


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## Ent (Aug 31, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> Tolkien Gateway though I suppose I've never checked their sources. I went through the kings of Rohan and how old they were at death and compared them with age ranges of known hobbits. That the old Took was given the name at 130 and Aldor, king of Rohan, the same title at 101. Common hobbits regularly lived into their 90s with nobles living even longer (Merry is well past his 90s). Yet even some of the kings of Rohan only lived until their 70s.
> 
> I suppose also some supposition based on when they were considered "adults" (33).



They are good suppositions to be sure.
Personally, I might apply the term 'longer-lived' than 'long-lived' however. With that I could agree easily.
When I think of 'long-lived' I think more of the 350-450ish years of the Numenoreans at least...
But I tend to be picky. 😟


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## ZehnWaters (Aug 31, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> They are good suppositions to be sure.
> Personally, I might apply the term 'longer-lived' than 'long-lived' however. With that I could agree easily.
> When I think of 'long-lived' I think more of the 350-450ish years of the Numenoreans at least...
> But I tend to be picky. 😟


AH. A misunderstanding based on definitions. A common problem.

Sidenote (and furthering my assertion of their longer-living compared to other men): Imrahil, noble, elven-blooded, and of Númenorean descent, lived to be 100. Gorbadoc Brandybuck (great-grandfather of Merry) lived to be 103.


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## Ent (Aug 31, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> AH. A misunderstanding based on definitions. A common problem.



Yes. To an Ent, a difference in average of age of perhaps 15 - 30 years overall, (we cannot know for certain), is a bit inconsequential. Hardly a blip I fear.

Nonetheless, this is NOT one for the Great Halls, as there is substantive 'evidence' for the conclusion.


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