# the valar aiding middle earth against morgoth



## John stefan (Oct 29, 2020)

how is it that the valar chose to give direct aid against morgoth but chose to simply send the istari or wizards later on against sauron? could it not have been enough to send the wizards to aid the free people against Morgoth like they did with sauron? is it because morgoth was more powerful then sauron?


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## Alcuin (Oct 29, 2020)

John stefan said:


> is it because morgoth was more powerful then sauron?


Yes, I suppose so.

Melkor Morgoth was himself a Vala. Only another of the Valar could overcome a Vala: the Maiar were the lesser (and by far more numerous) of the Ainur. The Host of Valinor sent to wage the War of Wrath at the end of the First Age was led by Eönwë, herald of Manwë, a Maia, peopled (as far as we are told: perhaps many Maiar came, too, but we are not told that) by the Vanyar and those Noldor that remained in Eldamar, ferried to Middle-earth by the Teleri. The only Vala that accompanied them was Tulkas, whose task (as before) was to wrestle Morgoth and chain him with Angainor. 

When Sauron arose again in the Third Age, the Valar sent other Maiar to frustrate his plans and rally Men and Elves and Dwarves to resist him. But their messengers, the Istari, were handicapped so that they would be less tempted to resist Sauron through their own power, and they were forbidden to rule Men or Elves by force or fear. At least five were sent. (There might have been other, lesser Maiar in the order of the Istari: we are only told of the five.) All but one fell away from their task, including “the honest Radagast” (Gandalf’s description of him at “The Council of Elrond”, _FotR_); only Gandalf remained faithful to his task until the very end.


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## Aldarion (Nov 2, 2020)

Alcuin said:


> All but one fell away from their task, including “the honest Radagast” (Gandalf’s description of him at “The Council of Elrond”, _FotR_); only Gandalf remained faithful to his task until the very end.



It is not actually certain that Radagast fell away from the task; it is (in UT?) stated that Radagast was a Maia of Yavanna, _and that caring for animals and plants of Middle Earth was a task given to him by Yavanna._ In other words, where Sauron was a "mechanist" and Gandalf "populist", Radagast was "naturalist". I get the impression that Saruman was supposed to provide insight into Sauron's mind, what with both of them having been Maiar of Aule; Gandalf was well-suited to motivating Free Peoples to resistance, while Radagast was there to take care of the nature, so often caught in the crossfires of war (remember gardens of Ent-wives?). So while Saruman did indeed fall, and Gandalf had to take over his role even before treason became obvious, I do not think that Radagast actually abandoned his given mission, unless his staying in Mirkwood can be interpreted as such. But as Mirkwood was indeed Sauron's seat for a long time, Radagast being there would actually have been well-placed to counter Sauron's corruption, to the extent he was capable of doing so at any rate.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Nov 2, 2020)

Here's an older discussion we had on Radagast as well, not a huge thread but some interesting points made:









Punishment for failure


The Istari were sent to Middle Earth to counter Sauron. Both Saruman and Radagast failed, though in different ways and degrees. What kind of punishment (if any) do you think awaited them back in Aman? Did Radagast deserve to be punished at all?




www.thetolkienforum.com


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## Akhôrahil (Nov 2, 2020)

Alcuin said:


> All but one fell away from their task, including “the honest Radagast” (Gandalf’s description of him at “The Council of Elrond”, _FotR_); only Gandalf remained faithful to his task until the very end.


I disagree. I agree with Aldarion that Radagast remained faithful to bis task. As far as Tolkien's later writings about the two blue wizards in the chapter Last Writings in The Peoples of Middle-earth (one of The History of Middle-earth volumes) on page 384-385 (I think) are concerned, it also seems that they succeded in their task.


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## 1stvermont (Nov 2, 2020)

John stefan said:


> how is it that the valar chose to give direct aid against morgoth but chose to simply send the istari or wizards later on against sauron? could it not have been enough to send the wizards to aid the free people against Morgoth like they did with sauron? *is it because morgoth was more powerful then sauron*?




I do not think so. I think there were many reasons and in fact almost the opposite, I will reply soon.


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## ZehnWaters (Nov 29, 2020)

John stefan said:


> how is it that the valar chose to give direct aid against morgoth but chose to simply send the istari or wizards later on against sauron? could it not have been enough to send the wizards to aid the free people against Morgoth like they did with sauron? is it because morgoth was more powerful then sauron?


The Valar didn't give the Moriquendi or Men ANY help against Morgoth (whom they had released) until Eärendil plead for relief and aid.



Alcuin said:


> Melkor Morgoth was himself a Vala. Only another of the Valar could overcome a Vala: the Maiar were the lesser (and by far more numerous) of the Ainur. The Host of Valinor sent to wage the War of Wrath at the end of the First Age was led by Eönwë, herald of Manwë, a Maia, peopled (as far as we are told: perhaps many Maiar came, too, but we are not told that) by the Vanyar and those Noldor that remained in Eldamar, ferried to Middle-earth by the Teleri. The only Vala that accompanied them was Tulkas, whose task (as before) was to wrestle Morgoth and chain him with Angainor.
> 
> When Sauron arose again in the Third Age, the Valar sent other Maiar to frustrate his plans and rally Men and Elves and Dwarves to resist him. But their messengers, the Istari, were handicapped so that they would be less tempted to resist Sauron through their own power, and they were forbidden to rule Men or Elves by force or fear. At least five were sent. (There might have been other, lesser Maiar in the order of the Istari: we are only told of the five.) All but one fell away from their task, including “the honest Radagast” (Gandalf’s description of him at “The Council of Elrond”, _FotR_); only Gandalf remained faithful to his task until the very end.


According to some of his writing Melkor was originally as powerful as all of the rest of the Valar combined which is why they didn't challenge him until the Elves were found. By the time of his first capture he'd already diminished to the point that the Valar could defeat him. By the time of his second capture they likely only needed a mighty host of one Vala, many Maiar, and hosts of Vanyar and Noldor (the Teleri didn't fight).

As far as the Istari are concerned, that depends entirely upon which version you go with. In the later writings the two Blue Wizards were sent during the 2nd Age and came with a resurrected Glorfindel. They went into the East and were actually VERY successful (goodness knows the lands in the East were quite extensive).


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