# Is using TTF the same as using 'Instant Messenger?'



## Ancalagon (Sep 8, 2002)

*Is the TTF the same as instant messaging?*

If u were writing a letr 2 friends or an essay 4 skool - wood u do it like this? 

I often wonder why so many replies in The Tolkien Forum are similar in style to the method employed above? As this is not a chat room, surely you would not use 'chatspeak' in order to communicate. I have even found myself doing this on occassion, though thankfully I have managed to pull myself back from the brink.

Wot r ur thoughts?


----------



## Anamatar IV (Sep 8, 2002)

i think its just the feel. Typing something on the internet whether its in a chat room or here you just feel like its the same. Alright g2g ttyl. J/K


----------



## HLGStrider (Sep 8, 2002)

I don't even use those things on MSN... I am a snob that way... I won't use LOL... I WON'T I WON'T I WON'T!!!

However, I get the feeling that some people say you are snobby or arrogant if you correct or make fun of their casual talk. I have friends who never use the Caps lock or shift... 

I think You'll have a heck of a time reining in on it, Anc.


----------



## Uminya (Sep 8, 2002)

I don't care if people do it, but it makes them seem extremely juvenile and unintelligent, so I tend to ignore anyone who uses anything more than the laughing abbreviations.


----------



## Ancalagon (Sep 8, 2002)

> I think You'll have a heck of a time reining in on it, Anc.



I have no intention of pursuing this matter, I am just keen to know why individuals would use the same type of wording in this forum as they might in a chatroom or instant messaging facility. 

I think there is a distinct difference between the two and wondered if anyone else felt like me? Alternatively, I am interested to know why those who would use it, feel they should. Don't worry, I am not venturing off on some crusade to rid the forum of 'chatspeak'


----------



## Confusticated (Sep 8, 2002)

There is obviously a major difference between typing in a chatroom/IM and posting in a forum. What is said in a forum will remain for any of the many members to read. I don't use that silly abbreviated junk such asusing numbers for sounds such as 'l8r' in instant messaging so I am not even tempted to do so on here. I've been online for 8 years and just this last year started using LOL regularly. I don't know why other people type in the silly manner. I am not complain or saying that I am any better, as what I lack in the silly talk I make up for in my poor spelling and lazy punctuation.
Someone who does do this silly talk, please explain.
Or shall I say pleeeez xplain!...


----------



## Mindy_O_Lluin (Sep 8, 2002)

Please don't. I guess I am a snob also (or just lazy), because if someone types like that, I consider it disrepectful since it's a waste of my time to decypher it - which I won't. I just skip over it and assume they didn't really want to be heard. If a person want's to be heard, it's their responsibility to communicate clearly.


----------



## HLGStrider (Sep 8, 2002)

I have a heck of a time reading it too... I don't do chat rooms and only come across it occasionally on MSN messenging... and most of the people there are my friends and most of them are homeschoolers, and we pride ourselves on a sort of aloof intellectual snobbery and good spelling...


----------



## Maedhros (Sep 8, 2002)

> I have no intention of pursuing this matter, I am just keen to know why individuals would use the same type of wording in this forum as they might in a chatroom or instant messaging facility.


Well Anc, I guess that it depends on the part of the forum. I basically stay in the book section and in the area of my guild. I hardly ever see such "writting" because those areas are "serious" if you will.
Because you have to watch the entire forum, there are other less "serious" areas that if you post something using that "writting", it really doesn't matter.



> Don't worry, I am not venturing off on some crusade to rid the forum of 'chatspeak'


Well, at least you could offer a prize for the people with the best grammar and spelling in the forum.
You could give TTF spelling bees.


----------



## Mormegil (Sep 9, 2002)

I dont like it when people use the chatroom style spellings on TTF. It's the wrong environment for it.
The shortened, ungrammatical chatroom speak is designed to get your speech across quickly in a chatroom environment. I have used this style of writing in the past when I have been on chatrooms, I also use it regularly when sending text messages from my mobile phone, in order to save space.
However I would never use it on TTF because there is no need. The forum is not an IM service, it is a message board. Threads are not 2 minute conversations, they can go on for months. People have the opportunity to type properly and should take it.

Another issue I have with people using this type of writing on TTF is that if native English speakers are having trouble deciphering it, then it must be so much worse for people who don't have English as a first language. This is bad because TTF is a gathering of Tolkien fans from different countries all over the world.


----------



## In Flames (Sep 9, 2002)

I agree, there is no need for that kind of typing on TTF. I mean you have the time to really think what you will write. And another thing that Mormegil said about people that don't have English as their first language, Im from Sweden and concider myself pretty good at understanding and writing English. But when someone use the chatstyle typing i sometimes have to really stop and look at each "word" to figure out the meaning of it. And that can be frustrating.
But i havent seen it in that many places here on the TTF.


----------



## DGoeij (Sep 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Mormegil _
> *Another issue I have with people using this type of writing on TTF is that if native English speakers are having trouble deciphering it, then it must be so much worse for people who don't have English as a first language. This is bad because TTF is a gathering of Tolkien fans from different countries all over the world. *



Absolutely. The only experience I have in the use of chatroom writing, is in Dutch. Now and then I'm confronted with it here, in English. That is indeed very hard to decipher for me. People tel my my English is quite good, but surely not good enough to be comfortable with this chatroom chatter. I know it's not nice to ignore someone, but that's what happens with me when I encounter posts like that.


----------



## Tyaronumen (Sep 9, 2002)

I always have assumed that 'chatspeak' type communication on the internet has a relationship to the typing speed of the individual involved...

I've never used 'chatspeak' conventions very much (do use IMHO, YMMV, but these are ancient, and tried and true USENET conventions from the DarpaNET days, so should be considered exempt ), but this is mainly because I've been using computers for 20 years, and type between 90-100 words a minute, so it's actually more effort for me to think up appropriate abbreviations than it is to just type the thing out and be done with it!

I do tend to associate 'chatspeak' with a younger (or less mature?) crowd, but I tend to associate those who discriminate against the 'chatspeak' crowd with a younger/less mature crowd, also. 

Obviously, both of these are stereotypes, so I try to ignore my own tendencies regarding categorizing chatspeakers as much as possible. 



> _Originally posted by Ancalagon _
> *If u were writing a letr 2 friends or an essay 4 skool - wood u do it like this?
> 
> I often wonder why so many replies in The Tolkien Forum are similar in style to the method employed above? As this is not a chat room, surely you would not use 'chatspeak' in order to communicate. I have even found myself doing this on occassion, though thankfully I have managed to pull myself back from the brink.
> ...



Your thread reminds me of an old computer game puzzle. You go into a bar and need to talk to a particular lady to get some information and must give her the right password. 

So you talk to her, and she says... "URAQT", and have to figure out the password...

Know the answer? Heard this before? Maybe even played that old computer game (Wasteland)?


----------



## Ancalagon (Sep 9, 2002)

> Your thread reminds me of an old computer game puzzle. You go into a bar and need to talk to a particular lady to get some information and must give her the right password.



Hmmm, that sounds like the beginnings of an interesting thread for all forum members to play????


----------



## Halasían (Dec 26, 2002)

> _If u were writing a letr 2 friends or an essay 4 skool - wood u do it like this?
> I often wonder why so many replies in The Tolkien Forum are similar in style to the method employed above? As this is not a chat room, surely you would not use 'chatspeak' in order to communicate. I have even found myself doing this on occassion, though thankfully I have managed to pull myself back from the brink.
> Wot r ur thoughts?_


 Personally, I think if J.R. R. Tolkien saw the state of literacy and laziness of many, primarily younger 'computer generation' folk on the internet, he would be sickened. Does it spell the death of literacy?? I doubt it, but it does show who is too lazy to type properly, and to me, seeing 'netspeak' makes me think the one typing it is a lazy dolt and I usually ignore and skip whatever it is if its extreme.

I would like to encourage everyone to do their best in using proper spelling and punctuation.. I'm not saying perfection, just a little effort.. it makes a BIG difference in the appearance of the intelligence of the writer.

Namarie,
snowdog


----------



## Viewman (Dec 26, 2002)

Then wat if you have a spelling problem like me 

Im from denmark and my english is quite bad :S:S


----------



## Halasían (Dec 26, 2002)

There is a big difference in spelling and netspeak. The first, for example, is say someone who does not use english much working out the oddities of the language, and the other is _pure laziness_. As I said, and will repeat, I would like to encourage everyone to do their best in using proper spelling and punctuation...

I myself am not an English language major or anything, and type even worse, but I put out the effort to do my best here for everyone to make the reading that much easier.


----------



## Viewman (Dec 26, 2002)

Ehm ok i think


----------



## HLGStrider (Dec 26, 2002)

Don't worry, Spidr. You are hardly the only one. Just keep trying... we don't mind, I'm sure...


----------



## Asha'man (Dec 28, 2002)

I run across "chatspeak" in a lot of places (Stangnet and linked forums most of all), and it's so annoying that I don't even try to figure it out. When someone says something like, "y0 do0dz, waz up? ur my h0mi3z, ya he4r?", my opinion of them goes waaaaay down. The kind of person who talks like that IRL enough to take the effort to type that way online is guaranteed to be, shall we say, "uneducated". 

Personally, if I see that someone has taken the time and effort to type and word their post clearly, I will give the post a chance to make an impact on me. Otherwise, I tend to discount it as being ignorant, unless I see that they're foreign. Although, I have noticed a lot of folks whose mother tongue is not English being more coherent online than people whose native language is English. 

I dare anyone to find typos in any of my posts. 

Ash


----------



## Wolfshead (Dec 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Asha'man _
> *When someone says something like, "y0 do0dz, waz up? ur my h0mi3z, ya he4r?", my opinion of them goes waaaaay down.*


 You've really got to wonder why people would type like that. I mean, surely it's easier to type the sentence out properly rather than figuring out which alternative characters to put in?

Basically, I hate 'chatspeak', you will never see me using it. Even if I feel the need to send a text on my mobile, I still use proper punctuation. I think my aversion stems from when I first started using the internet, I was into all this 'chatspeak' then, I must have been about 11 or 12. Then, one day, much to my dismay, I discovered I could no longer remember how to spell a particular word, due to my usage of 'chatspeak'. That was frightening, so since then, I always type properly.

A couple of people have got on at me for always typing properly on MSN Messenger, but I don't care. If someone types with 'chatspeak' to me, as it does with other people, my opinion of them drops dramatically. Even if they are intelligent people, it doesn't make much difference, if they don't talk using something resembling normality, I just ignore them. Such as it is, out of the people I regulary talk to now, practically all of them type properly.

Ok, so to sum up from this ramble - If someone types in proper English, they have my respect, and they seem more intelligent than someone that is too lazy to type properly. Even if they are not. Correct speach is easier to read than 'chatspeak', and it's not worth bothering with if not properly typed.

In addition to that, TTF is a forum, not a chatroom, therefore you are not pressured into quick replies, giving you the time to come up with a properly formed response.

Right, that's the end of that incoherent mess, I typed things down as they came to my head and the result was none too sensicle. Is sensicle a word? I'm not sure, nonsensicle is, but sensicle? Anyway...

C ya l8tr, m8ts  That was surprisingly difficult...


----------



## HLGStrider (Dec 28, 2002)

I have a heck of a time figuring the darn stuff out... brb took me forever... How basic can you get?

Sigh...

I use basically good spelling on MSN but I am less likely to go back and correct it if it is something little like forgetting a comma...

Most of the people I speak with are the same way... though some don't like to use capslocks, and most of them can't type as fast as me... he he he...


----------



## Asha'man (Dec 28, 2002)

I don't generally capitalize the first letter of a sentence in chat, but I do capitalize letters like "I", proper nouns, etc. Anyone who chats with me will agree that my spelling is impeccable, and if I do accidentally send a typo through, I fix it with an asterisk. I think I need to chat with you guys.....we can all see how perfect our spelling and such is.  I'm [email protected] on MSN. 

Ash


----------



## Eledhwen (Dec 29, 2002)

*CHATSPEAK? no thx!*

I've been using computers for nearly twenty years, but only for work. I've only had personal internet access for a couple of years and this is the only forum I've ever used. It took me ages to work out the chat shorthand - and that's from someone trained in the Pitman variety! I didn't ask, because I didn't want to fill the forum up with yet more junk that had nothing to do with Tolkien.

TTF don't allow foreign language posts because they won't be understood (and could be libellous). Surely the same should apply to chatspeak?

Tyaronumen, does YMMV mean what I think it does (Revelation 3:16)? If so, I hope you don't use it on this forum.


----------



## HLGStrider (Dec 29, 2002)

I'm not sure if you could successfully edit it out... some people are just naturally lousy or careless spellers.


----------



## Asha'man (Dec 31, 2002)

YMMV is usually "Your Mileage May Vary", that I've seen. Basically, "what works for me may not be the same for you."

Ash


----------



## Isenho (Dec 31, 2002)

why can the people use that extra .05 of a second to type just a few more letters!

IE: "u" and "you"
i dunno, i use "u" all the time


----------



## Eledhwen (Jan 2, 2003)

*YMMV?*



> _Originally posted by Asha'man _
> *YMMV is usually "Your Mileage May Vary", that I've seen. Basically, "what works for me may not be the same for you."
> 
> Ash *


Just goes to make the point, doesn't it. I thought it meant "You make me v*mit". Given the above example, how is anyone using this Forum to learn English going to work out what is meant?


----------



## Wolfshead (Jan 2, 2003)

I think the trick is going to be to ignore people that talk in 'chatspeak'. Maybe when they realise no one is paying any attention to them, they'll start typing properly, or leave?


----------



## Rangerdave (Jan 2, 2003)

I find that whenever I encounter the dreaded _chatspeak_, my first reaction is to check the profile for the speaker (typist). If the member is from a non-English speaking country, I tend to just ignore the post and chalk it up to translation problems.

But if the member is a native English speaker, I tend to get a bit miffed at the intellectual sloppiness of it all. As an educator by vocation and character, I feel it is my duty to stamp out this type of writing when or where ever I may. Using the powers the Webmaster has entrusted to me, I often attempt to correct this type of thing. However, seeing as I am no longer one of the _with it_ generation, the bizarre and cryptic spellings remain unchanged: not because I condone them but rather because I do not understand them.

So please, be kind to the old fogies here at the TolkienForum, and write with panache, flair and hopefully a modi*** of good grammar.

Thank you so very much
RD



*Yet another example of my attempting to use a perfectly legitimate word and being made a fool of by the gods of auto censoring software.

The word I wished to use was M O D I C U M.

RD  *


----------



## Eledhwen (Jan 2, 2003)

*Chatspeak on a TOLKIEN Forum?*

It just occurred to me how inappropriate instant message shorthand is on a site dedicated to the beauty of Tolkien's writings.


----------



## Arvedui (Jan 10, 2003)

My thoughts exactly!
And while I'm on it, I really dislike posts written that way, so unfortunately, I just leave them.
I believe this Forum should honor the Professor. Using 'chatspeak' is, in my opinion, an insult to JRRT.

Even if it may be faster to type, it sure takes a lot longer to read...


----------



## Viewman (Jan 10, 2003)

Often when i dont know how to spell it i make some funny words hehe wat if they sounds like chatspeak hehe my gramma is really bad im from denmark 

but is u insted og you allso bad? because i often do that but if peaple tink om sloppy because of that i dont wanna do it 
And 2 more questions 
do i say cause or because 
and do i say wanna or want to??
heh thx


----------



## Aerin (Jan 11, 2003)

I believe one of the most important points this thread has made is that when someone posts on a forum _decidated to discussing literature_, that the person should make an honest effort to type clearly and concisely. As long as whoever is posting is making a real effort to be readily understood, and type properly, then there is no real problem. The problem stems from those who will not bother to take the time to type out the full word, as opposed to the abbreviated IM/Chat form.

I understand spelling problems; I have them, as well. However, I try my best to keep at least half an eye on my grammar, spelling, and punctuation. I could count, on one hand, the number of people I've met who properly know how to use "its" as opposed to "it's". What always amuses me is when people confuse "bear" with "bare" - example: "I hope you can bare it." The spelling "bare" means to uncover or to expose; "bear" means either the animal, or to carry.

Most of the time, I find "chatspeak" to be unintelligible; as is the case with many others, my opinion of the person I am speaking with drops dramatically if they cannot be bothered to use proper English.
If someone's native language is not English, then mistakes are perfectly understandable; Lord knows I would love to be as fluent in another language as many here on TTF are in English.


----------



## Viewman (Jan 11, 2003)

Hm year ok 
But wat about wanna and cause can i say them or not?


----------



## HLGStrider (Jan 11, 2003)

I sincerely doubt we are going to start giving warning points for bad word usage, etc.

I normally use wanna or gonna when I am trying to make it appear as if I'm talking... or I'm being humorous... I doubt people care that much... just like I occassionally throw in Aint just for the heck of it.


----------



## Sarah (Jan 11, 2003)

There are only 2 pet peeves of mine: spelling typos, and spoken grammar mistakes. Other than that 'chatspeak' doesn't bother me online. The reason I don't take the time to check my grammar and things here: It doesn't count against my grade in school!


----------



## HLGStrider (Jan 11, 2003)

Be careful... there are quite a few on site teachers... they can be scary sometimes.


----------



## Eledhwen (Jan 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Viewman _
> *Hm year ok
> But wat about wanna and cause can i say them or not? *


Everyone knows what 'wanna' means, but it's really not that much quicker to type than 'want to'. You have to be careful when you use 'cause', which is also a word in itself with its own meaning. In most cases, you can substitue 'for' instead; it's a bit old-fashioned (not a problem on a Tolkien forum), but the meaning would be clear.

My advice to those learning English is to learn the correct words before using the colloquial. My dad had a friend who learned his English from the British Army and every other word he spoke was a profanity - but he didn't know!


----------



## Viewman (Jan 12, 2003)

Ok thanks  wat abpout thx and sry?? heh


----------



## Wolfshead (Jan 12, 2003)

That's clearly 'chatspeak', changing letters and removing vowels. If you use it, you look, for lack of a better word, stupid. It's hardly much more difficult to type the proper word.


----------



## Viewman (Jan 12, 2003)

ok thanks


----------



## HLGStrider (Jan 12, 2003)

I also use cause for because for the same reasons I use wanna and gonna....
For instance...
Elgee's gonna cry cause you guys are mean to her... 

he he he... It's shameful the way I do that.
My biggest problem is I tend to use things like "However," "In my opinion," "I think," "Of course... etc." at the begining over every debate paragraph... which is of course condemnable by any writing teacher... you shouldn't use I think, especially... You should state it clearly and firmly and all that... and you will probably end up offending someone... but I guess I think doesn't soften an opinion that much.


----------



## Wonko The Sane (Feb 9, 2003)

Good question.

While I do use smiley faces a lot I tend to try to always use correct grammar and spelling even on MSN messenger and AIM.

I don't know why...I just do.
I even do it in text messages.

And even if you use them in messenger, it seems to me that this forum certainly is not the place for 'chatspeak-isms'.


----------



## Ithrynluin (Feb 9, 2003)

I am not bothered by the usage of this kind of speech...In fact, I use it myself quite often - but not here on the forum, solely in chat rooms or instant messengers. As everyone else said, a forum is just not the right kind of environment for it, except for some sections, like stuff and bother, which can be used to goof off (or so it seems).


----------



## Wonko The Sane (Feb 11, 2003)

I find chatspeak annoying...
I'm with RangerDave.

Sure he's an History teacher and I'm more into English Literature, but the idea is the same.

It just rubs me the wrong way.

Although one thing I do do far too much on the internet is these "..."

I don't know why I use them. Probably becuase I tend to write how I speak (Unless it's for a paper or a serious something or other) and in normal speech I trail my sentence a bit.

I dunno. There's just something to be said for what's left unsaid...


----------



## Rangerdave (Feb 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Aerin _
> *
> What always amuses me is when people confuse "bear" with "bare" - example: "I hope you can bare it." The spelling "bare" means to uncover or to expose; "bear" means either the animal, or to carry.*



Well Aerin, I doubt that anyone will object if you _bare_ every once in a while 




> _Originally posted by Wonko The Sane _
> *I find chatspeak annoying...
> I'm with RangerDave.
> *


Surely this is a sign that the apocalypse is upon us!
Wonks agrees with me!

Run for the hills
Save yourselves
Save yourselves!







RD


----------



## Walter (Feb 17, 2003)

Since this thread has turned into an "grammar, spelling and nitpicking thereof"-thread (...whatever happened to the old English101-thread, it suffered an untimely demise I guess..) I'd like to throw in my 2 (€-)cts:

What is often encountered here is the phrase: 

*"I am waiting with baited breath"*

All I have to say to it is: EEEEK


----------



## Aerin (Feb 17, 2003)

RD, honestly, people would really run for cover if I went _bare_.


----------



## Wonko The Sane (Feb 18, 2003)

And I don't get why everyone always thinks it's the apocalypse when I agree with them.
Ask Snaga...I'm really very agreeable!

And I do often agree with you RD! I think we both have that scholar's spirit.


----------



## Ancalagon (May 20, 2003)

*BUMP*

Just wondering if the 'English Language' is entirely doomed or is that only in threads relating to heaven or hell?


----------



## Wonko The Sane (May 23, 2003)

I'm not sure what you mean, Anc...


----------



## archery master (Jun 18, 2003)

i quess it is because you can talk to freinds but tis also different because you cant talk every few seconds you wait then write back


----------



## BlackCaptain (Jun 18, 2003)

I've tried to refrain as much as possible from saying stuff like 

'Lol!' 'Lmao!' 'u shuld do that', but sometimes they just slip out. I'm workin on capitilizing all of my 'I''s now!


----------



## Wonko The Sane (Sep 7, 2003)

I usually don't let myself get into the habit of using ChatSpeak in the first place. I type very fast and it really doesn't take me any longer to use good grammar, spelling, etc.
If you don't let yourself get into the habit in the first place, you won't have to worry about "trying" to be proper on the forum.


----------

