# Of Eagles and Ents



## Walter (May 22, 2002)

"Spirits from afar"?


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## Niniel (May 22, 2002)

It is about the Ents, they were supposed to be the defenders of the trees because they could not defend themselves. I read Tolkien had not thought about the origin of the Ents when he wrote LOTR, and that he had quite a hard time to make something up about where they came from. But it sounds really acceptable. What it means about the Eagles I'm not really sure.


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## Walter (May 22, 2002)

I am aware that Tolkien on several occasions (e.g. Letters #180, #247) admitted freely that he invented Treebeard "from scratch" without having a history of the Ents already having in mind, basically the same is stated in the HoMe where at first "Giant Treebeard" is the creature that holds Gandalf captured in Fangorn, which should explain Gandalfs delay in returning to the shire. 

But there is also another interesting note:


> [The draft ends here. At the top, Tolkien has written, not very legibly, a note in pencil:]
> No one knew whence they (Ents) came or first appeared. The High Elves said that the Valar did not mention them in the 'Music'. But some (Galadriel) were [of the] opinion that when Yavanna discovered the mercy of Eru to Aulë in the matter of the Dwarves, she besought Eru (through Manwë) asking him to give life to things made of living things not stone, and *that the Ents were either souls sent to inhabit trees*, or else that slowly took the likeness of trees owing to their inborn love of trees. (Not all were good [words illegible]) The Ents thus had mastery over stone. The males were devoted to Oromë, but the Wives to Yavanna.


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## Niniel (May 22, 2002)

Ah, you know more about it than me... I would think the Ents were creatures cretaed in the shape of trees, not that they were spirits that inhabit trees, because that would be unnecessary, first to create spirits and then have them live in trees, it would be more logical if they were created looking like trees from the start. If they were spirits, where would they come from? and could they then also live in other things? 
There is some other thing I was wondering about; somewhere in the Sil (I believe in a battle of Dior against Morgoth's forces) suddenly the Shepherds of the Trees appear to save the good guys. But they never do that anywhere else, while the Eagles do it a lot. So why would they do it just then, and not at some other time?


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## DGoeij (May 22, 2002)

I read this as the Eagles being the spirits who will guard against unjustice done in ME against its inhabitants. IMHO, the Ents where primarily brought in to be Shepherds of the Tress because of the creation of the not-so-nature-loving Dwarves. Maybe the same kind of spirits as the Eagles, but with a different job-description.

That would explain why the Eagles will come in time of need and why the Ents just stick in the forest to guard over the trees. But I must say that the Sil is a heavy read for me and I do not always fully grasp the meaning of the texts.


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## entbabe (May 22, 2002)

The Ents only fight when they are threatened themselves or to punish those who destroy them (the Dwarves of Nogrod in The Sil after they attack Doriath and Saruman in LOTR after he destroys the forest of Orthanc).

Yavanna had originally said:

"...among these I hold trees dear. Long in the growing, swift shall they be in the felling, and unless they pay toll with fruit upon bough, little mourned in their passing. So I see in my thought. Would that the trees might speak on behalf of all things that have roots, and punish them that wrong them."

Yavanna gets the Ents, Manwe gets the Eagles. They seem to have been having some sort of affair maybe.... 

On another point: I wonder if Old Man Willow was a rogue ent? In LOTR, when Tom rescues Merry and Pippin (which i believe is an event that connects them/opens up their understanding to allow their later meeting with Treebeard in Fanghorn):

“...Tom’s words laid bare the hearts of trees and their thoughts, which were often dark and strange, and filled with a hatred of things that go free upon the earth, gnawing, biting, breaking, hacking, burning: destroyers and usurpers.”

It's a shame that Old Man Willow and Tom B didn't make it into PJ's film version. There's also rumours about PJ dropping the scouring of the shire and because you never saw Galadriel give Sam her seeds, they must be cutting all that out as well as the bit when Sam is tempted by the ring and envisions remaking Mordor into a lush garden. Anyway, i think i'm going off topic a bit, but all this is connected in a way. 

Tolkien was perhaps an environmentalist at heart. 

Trees (in all their shapes) are an essential symbol throughout his works: 

The Trees of Valinor > The Sun & The Moon > The Silmarils > Venus > Nimloth 
(The White Tree) > ...

The beings who are connected to trees:

Eru > Yavanna > Galadriel > Sam > Tom > Treebeard > Gandalf > Merry > Pippin > ...

Hm hoom!


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## Walter (May 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by DGoeij _
> Maybe the same kind of spirits as the Eagles, but with a different job-description.


Hehehe, I like the way you put that...



> _Originally posted by entbabe _
> Yavanna gets the Ents, Manwe gets the Eagles. They seem to have been having some sort of affair maybe....


Lesson#1 in relationships: Never make the wife feel left out... 



> _Originally posted by entbabe _
> Tolkien was perhaps an environmentalist at heart.


You bet...


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## DGoeij (May 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Walter _
> *Hehehe, I like the way you put that...*



It does sound somewhat lame, doesn't it? 

Anyway, I couldn't find of a better way to describe what I thought about it. Small talk is easy, but when you are having a real conversation in a different language, sheesh. *wiping the sweat of his forehead*

Clearly professor Tolkien was much more a lover of the green and peacufull countryside than of the industrial parts of his ocuntry. His portrayel of the good and the bad people of ME is IMHO, enough evidence.
Orcs and such using machines and tearing everything apart and the Hobbits living in nice cozy homes that fit perfectly in the landscape, tending their gardens etc.


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## Walter (May 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by DGoeij _
> It does sound somewhat lame, doesn't it?


Actually, no, I found it rather witty...

And, yes, Tolkiens affinity to an intact and un-industrialized environment shows clearly throughout his literary works, and is explained and described even better in the biography by H.Carpenter


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## DGoeij (May 23, 2002)

Well, thanks. 

But, since you mentioned it. Is the biography by H. Carpenter a good one? I'm still looking around to buy a biography of professor Tolkien, just to get a better picture of him, but I'm not sure which one is any good. there are currently way to much on the market and I don't want to waste any money on all of the crap flying around.


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## Walter (May 23, 2002)

DGoeij, I haven't read anotherone, so I can't really compare, but I do think it's a good biography. I very much enjoyed reading it.

Carpenter has also edited Tolkien's "Letters" - together with Tolkien's son Christopher who published the Sil, the UT and the HoME series. The Biography has been published first 4 years after Tolkiens death and it seems, Carpenter has been supported in his work by all members of the Tolkien family. Carpenter also wrote "The Inklings", a book about the literary circle which included Tolkiens friend and rival C.S. Lewis and where Tolkien presented quite a few of his works before they were suggested for publication. So, IMO, Carpenter sure is a qualified author for a Tolkien Biography and has proved so even more afterwards...


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## DGoeij (May 23, 2002)

Sounds good enough to me, but maybe it's a better idea to start a thread about it, to get various opinions. Thanks anyway.

I'd like to dive into his views on the environment. Somehow I always seem to find thought-out opinions/wisdoms woven into the stories. Like Gandalf responding to Frodo's judgement on Gollum, that he shoudl have been killed. Or Sam, looking down at the fallen 'enemy' soldier. And of course Bilbo's poem: All that is gold, does not glitter.


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## Walter (May 23, 2002)

Starting a thread about Tolkien-biographies sounds good to me too - and not only because I would like bring the thread back to the original topic  - which is: Are the Ents - like the Eagles - incarnated "spiritual beings" or not...


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## DGoeij (May 23, 2002)

Point taken. 

I guess both the Ents and the Eagles are of the same kind, maybe even 'lesser' Maiar, sent to guard over ME.
But the Eagles where part of the original plan, housing in the mountains and keeping an eye on the world. The Ents where only brought in because of the plees of Yavanna, who feared the lack of love for nature the dwarves had.
Now allready the dwarves weren't part of the Song (it had a name right?), and brought in by accident and because of that a need for Ents occured. I guess it would make sense that it would be easiest to create the Ents like the Eagles, only more treeish to be able to perform the job.

If I read your quote more carefully, I even think that not all the Eagles where inhabited by these spirits, but just a number of them. Because of that I can imagine Ents being spirits brought into trees, to become Ents, which makes the excistence of Huorns somewhat more clearer. They would have been Ents whose spirits fell asleep or became divided over more than one tree and therefore would not be as 'living' as a regular Ent anymore.
I still find it hard to grasp all of the Sil, but this is how I see it.


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## Camille (May 23, 2002)

> The Ents where only brought in because of the plees of Yavanna, who feared the lack of love for nature the dwarves had.


Sorry but that is not right if you mean that the ents were made up because of yavanna 


> Do then any of the Valar suppose that I did not hear all the Song, even the least sound of the least voice?


they were already in the song, if you do not mean that my apologies  

Ok so we have eagles and ents inhabitated by spirits? that is my impression at least, and that remember that other beings had spitis in them: werewolf, were this spirits came from? lesser maiar? is there any proof of that?


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## Walter (May 24, 2002)

Dgoeij, I agree with your post except for what Camille also stated, they were brought in not only for the pleeding of Yavanna, but also because they had been in the song, which somehow seemed to have slipped Manwë's memory for moment 

And at the moment I can't recall whether it is stated that the Dwarves were in the song or not...

Camille: I don't recall either whether it is said if the Werewolves in general or some (like Anfauglir or Draugluin) were twisted spirits or not...


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## DGoeij (May 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Walter _
> *Dgoeij, I agree with your post except for what Camille also stated, they were brought in not only for the pleeding of Yavanna, but also because they had been in the song, which somehow seemed to have slipped Manwë's memory for moment
> 
> And at the moment I can't recall whether it is stated that the Dwarves were in the song or not...
> ...



Allready in the Song? Really? I must have missed that or something, I never knew. I honestly thought that the Ents were especially created after the plees of Yavanna.
This forum brings new knowledge to me alsmost every day. Good thing to hang around here. 

I pictured werewolves as twisted dogs or wolves, done so by Melkor, like he turned so many animals into evil beings for his own purposes. And the idea about the lesser Maiar was just speculation, not backed up by any quote or something.

About the dwarves, I thought it was clear is was a individual action by Aule, but maybe Eru had foreseen that in his Song too. I really couldn't be sure, not anymore.


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## Camille (May 27, 2002)

Walter, yes it is said in the Sil specially Caradrahs (sorry do not remember the name correctly  ) the great wolf that was slept by Luthien and bit Beren's hand, also I kind of remember a disscusion here in the forums about if dragons were also maia? spitis? twisted being? and we have the bats, I do not have the quotes but i will look for them
promise!


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## Walter (May 27, 2002)

Camille, okay, I'll try to search some myself, but not until I get back from vacation...


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## Camille (May 28, 2002)

HAVE A HAPPY HAPPY VACATION!!!  
I have found some quotes but I forgot to bring my sil copy!!  
I will try to post them in the afternoon


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## Camille (May 30, 2002)

Ok here are some quotes from the Sil:
From Of the Sindar:
"And ere long the evil creatures came even to Beleriand, over passes in the mointains, or up from the south through the dark forests. Wolves there were, *or creatures that walked in wolf-shape, * ..."

From Of Beren and Luthien: (about Carcharoth)
" Swiftly the wolf grew, until he could creep into no den, but lay huge and hungry before the feet of Morgoth. There the fire and anguish of hell entered into him, and he became filled with a devouring sprit, tormented, terrible, and strong"

Ok maybe the devoring spitis was just to describe the fire that was in him, but still make me think...

about the dragons I have not found anything what are the dragons?


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## DGoeij (May 31, 2002)

About dragons there are some threads considering if they were Maiar. Maybe that will help some:

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/show...ogs+AND+Dragons 

And 
http://www.thetolkienforum.com/show...ogs+AND+Dragons 

and
http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3878&highlight=*dragon*


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## Camille (May 31, 2002)

thanks .. but the first two thread seem to be missed  , but I remember those threads, and I was looking some post from the Sil, hobbit or UT about the breeding of the Dragons, in the turin Turambar story maybe I have been looking for it but I have not found it.


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## Walter (Jun 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Camille _
> *  !! that is ok Walter no problem  ah but  you left me with the eagles-ents thread!!*


Aaah yes, I knew there was something I wanted to do after I came back....

That's the best I can come up with for now: 


> ...But thereafter there was peace for many years, and no open assault from Angband, for Morgoth perceived now that the Orcs unaided were no match for the Noldor; and he sought in his heart for new counsel.
> Again after a hundred years Glaurung, the first of the Urulóki, the fire-drakes of the North, issued from Angband's gates by night. He was yet young and scarce half-grown, for long and slow is the life of the dragons, but the Elves fled before him to Ered Wethrin and Dorthonion in dismay; and he defiled the fields of Ard-galen
> Silmarillion - Of the Return of the Noldor"


It seems it took Morgoth about 100 years to come up with the first dragon, please give me just a few more days to maybe come up with a better quote...


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## Camille (Jun 13, 2002)

Yes I read that in one of the thread that DGoeij gave us I posted soemthing about the dark spirits that were in the dragons and that it was in the Turin story!! Can you believe that I can not find the quote!!!!¡'??  
I will look for it.... or maybe was the Nar... have to see the UT.


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## Walter (Jun 14, 2002)

Maybe this is what you have in mind?


> For I do not believe that this Dragon is unconquerable, though he grows greater in strength and malice with the years. I know somewhat of him. His power is rather in the evil spirit that dwells within him than in the might of his body, great though that be.
> Unfinished Tales - The Coming of Glaurung


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## Camille (Jun 14, 2002)

Yes, exactly!! but I am thiming that maybe it was just Turin's words, I mean he just esed the words and maybe there was not an "special evil spirit" but it has never been clear for me if the dragons are ... what are they ?


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## Flame of Anor (Jun 21, 2002)

*quicky*

In the Sil, does it tell of the Elvs "awaking" the Ents, other that the quote that Walter provided in the beginging of the thread?

-Flame


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## Camille (Jun 24, 2002)

No in fact the ents are mencionated only twice at the Sil, the quote that walter posted and when they killed the dwarves that had killed Thingol and stole the Silmaril. Am I right?. I think I am...


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