# The age of Denethor and his sons...



## Barahir (Apr 19, 2005)

I just wonder, since Aragorn lived to be almost three times the age of normal men, because of his Numenor-blood, then should not Denethor, Faramir and Boromir become as old as him? It's written in the chapter Minas Tirith, that Denethor's blood was almost pure Numenorean, as was his son's (Faramir's) but then again not Boromir's, which he loved the most. (because he died?)
What does all this mean? 
Since the sons of Denethor are pretty young compared to Aragorn in the War of the Ring, I guess that means they will be as old as "regular" men. Well, not Boromir or Denethor at least, but shouldn't Faramir be?


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 19, 2005)

Denethor and his family were not directly descended from the royal families, as Aragorn was. Still, Faramir lived to be 120 years old, which is above average.



> It's written in the chapter Minas Tirith, that Denethor's blood was almost pure Numenorean, as was his son's (Faramir's) but then again not Boromir's, which he loved the most. (because he died?)



Could you elaborate on this, please? I don't quite catch your drift here.

Anyhow, welcome aboard!


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## Elfarmari (Apr 19, 2005)

I think what you're referring to is Gandalf's words to Pippin about Denethor? 



> . . . . whatever be his descent form father to son, by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him; as it does in his other son, Faramir, and yet did not in Boromir whom he loved best.



I think this is referring more to the powers of mind and general 'air' than either literal descent or longevity. At the time of the War of the Ring, Denethor is 89 (two years older than Aragorn, I think), Boromir is 40 at his death, and Faramir is 36. The stewards were descended from Mardil, who was of Numenorean descent, I believe, but not from as pure a line as the Kings. Therefore, the blood of the Numenoreans in the line of Stewards was much more mingled with that of other men than that of Aragorn. Aragorn was given the grace of choosing the hour of his own death, so I would not be surprised if he was also graced with an unusually long life (for his time). 

Denethor was prematurely aged by worry for his kingdom and use of the Palantir. In general, because of their Numenorean blood, I would think the Stewards had a longer life expectancy than the general Gondorian population.


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## Valandil (Apr 19, 2005)

Ithrynluin said:


> Denethor and his family were not directly descended from the royal families, as Aragorn was. Still, Faramir lived to be 120 years old, which is above average...



Interesting to note, because I think that for some time, the Stewards had been dying before their 100th birthday - OK, I just checked PoME and it was Denethor's great-great grandfather (Thorondir) who lived to be 100 - and was the last Steward to live that long. The ones between them though lived to be 99 or 98. Belecthor II, the father of Thorondir lived to be 120 though. The White Tree at the Citadel died when he died, so maybe there was something special about him. Belecthor II lived longer than his ancestors had for 7 generations back.

So anyway, Faramir reached the age of his great-great-great-great grandfather.  

It's interesting in those earlier accounts, Tolkien had Aragorn live to 190 - so that he died in Year 100 of the Fourth Age. I wonder if he made the change to make his age more mythical or antiquated... ie, multiples of 3, 4, 6, etc seemed more common in old tales than multiples of 5 or 10. 120 years is like a 'half dozen score' years or something.


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## Valandil (Apr 20, 2005)

Just a further note on this. Aragorn's nearest ancestors whose lives were not cut short (ie, his father and grandfather - both "killed in action") lived to be 155. In the earliest years of the Third Age, the Kings of Gondor actually lived longer than the Kings of Arnor. In later times though, while the lifespans of each had significantly decreased, the Chieftains were outliving the Stewards.

I think Aragorn's final age reflects some sort of 'blessing' he received... ie, perhaps Eru conferring a longer life on him for his faithfulness, and maybe even his triumph, his renewal of all things that had once been, etc, etc. Maybe even that he lived in the presence of a White Tree. 

*EDIT:* PS - if anyone else is nearly as interested in this stuff as me, it's all in The History of Middle Earth, Volume XII, "The Peoples of Middle-Earth" - in the chapter; "The Heirs of Elendil". Not all the information is in agreement with itself or with other published accounts, but that's just because it's a compilation of notes which JRRT was revising over time. In many cases, it's the only thing we have though.


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## Alatar (Apr 20, 2005)

The kings lived longer than the cheiftains (as the cheiftans were living in ME and so slowly losing the gifts of the land of gift) the stewards less than them by about 50 years(as the stewards were living in ME and so slowly losing the gifts of the land of gift and were not of the line of kings)
Aragorn lived longer as he resisted the temptation of the ring and was willing to sacrifice him self and the prophersy was that he would rise above all his sires since the day's of elendil who died early as did his farther but isildurrs son (the nearest to elendil) lived to 250 so aragorn would have lived to about that as he live tree times longer than lesser men(so lesser men died at age 83 which is right.
So
Kings in numenor 400-> unfaithfull Kings in numenor->200->Kings inb exile 250-> ceiftens of arnor 150->stewards 100.
Farimir and denthor are exceptions as the blood of numenor was nearly pure in them.


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## Alcuin (Apr 25, 2005)

I liked this thread so much, I finally completed an essay on the Decline of the Lifespan of the Númenóreans and posted it on my website. If any of you would care to take a look at it, I’d be interested in knowing what you think about it. It has some bearing on the ages of Denethor and Faramir, although that is not the thrust of the essay.


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## Valandil (Apr 26, 2005)

I enjoyed Alcuin's article. We have already exchanged a few emails and he asked me to post my initial comments to him. So here they are - with "edits" noted by 'ED' in parentheses:

- - - - - - -

A few comments:

1. On the difference in lifespans of Kings of Arnor and of Gondor: I have theorized at times that the presence of the White Tree in Gondor may have accounted for this... just as something either symbolic of, or even granting, some sort of 'blessing'. It correlates with the Steward Belecthor II as well (hmm... he lived 20% longer than the other Stewards of his age - same difference you noted between Arnor and Gondor). I envision that he (ED: Belecthor II) was possibly very cognizant of tending the White Tree - and perhaps more 'devout' in the ways of the Faithful, if there still was such a thing at his time.

2. On the age of Elendil: Just for argument's sake, check out the thread I started on this, also in the "History of Middle Earth" forum at TTF (I think its "Was Elendil REALLY born in 3119?). Because of the relationship between Amandil and Tar-Palantir, I propose that the dates given in "The Heirs of Elendil" are based on earlier versions of "The Akallabeth" - and that Amandil sounds more like the contemporary of Tar-Palantir in the later accounts (dates shown have T-P born in 3118 and Elendil born in 3119 - only a year apart).

3. Nice graphs: I think it would be fine to continue a 'straight line' over the dots representing Kings who were killed prematurely though (ED: thereby giving more a "life expectancy" than a life span).

4. After Ondoher: You say that Pelendur the Steward ruled until 1960 - but everything I've seen (both from my LOTR Appendices and from PoME) indicates that it was only one year - from 1944 to 1945 - and that Earnil became King in 1945. Did you see the 1960 date someplace? (ED: Alcuin modified this to 1945) As to the further drop-off in age after Ondoher, note that Earnil was only, IIRC, third cousin to Ondoher's children (second cousin in the PoME account), so he was somewhat removed from the royal line by birth, and possibly not as much 'pure' Numenorean because of that.

Great work, all-in-all.

- - - - - - -

One interesting thing about Belecthor II is that he also lived significantly longer than the Stewards before him, going back several generations (even though those also would have had a White Tree present). Is there a discrepancy about when he died? I only have paperbacks of LOTR and have found my appendices less than 100% reliable, my App A dates his passing at 2872, but my App B shows it at 2852. PoME gives 2872. I tend to favor the 2872 date, because my App B has no other entries between 2851 and 2885 - and the 2852 date could have been a wrong mixture of his birth year (2752) and death year (2872) from the list shown in PoME. Could someone check the Houghton Mifflin - or other edition known to have a more accurate appendix?


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## Greenwood (Apr 26, 2005)

Valandil said:


> One interesting thing about Belecthor II is that he also lived significantly longer than the Stewards before him, going back several generations (even though those also would have had a White Tree present). Is there a discrepancy about when he died? I only have paperbacks of LOTR and have found my appendices less than 100% reliable, my App A dates his passing at 2872, but my App B shows it at 2852. PoME gives 2872. I tend to favor the 2872 date, because my App B has no other entries between 2851 and 2885 - and the 2852 date could have been a wrong mixture of his birth year (2752) and death year (2872) from the list shown in PoME. Could someone check the Houghton Mifflin - or other edition known to have a more accurate appendix?


I have a set of the Houghton Mifflin hardcovers of LOTR (1st edition, 13th printing) from the 1960's. It gives those same dates in Appendices A and B.


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## Alcuin (Apr 26, 2005)

Valandil said:


> I enjoyed Alcuin's article. We have already exchanged a few emails and he asked me to post my initial comments to him. So here they are - with "edits" noted by 'ED' in parentheses:


Thanks, Valandil




Valandil said:


> On the difference in lifespans of Kings of Arnor and of Gondor: I have theorized at times that the presence of the White Tree in Gondor may have accounted for this... just as something either symbolic of, or even granting, some sort of 'blessing'. It correlates with the Steward Belecthor II as well (hmm... he lived 20% longer than the other Stewards of his age - same difference you noted between Arnor and Gondor). I envision that he (ED: Belecthor II) was possibly very cognizant of tending the White Tree - and perhaps more 'devout' in the ways of the Faithful, if there still was such a thing at his time.


I agree. The White Tree seems to represent a spiritual boost or blessing for the Dúnedain in Gondor, and perhaps this is one reason for the longer lives in that region. Until you mentioned it, I had not I had not associated its absence and the sudden but seemingly reversible loss of the extra 20% in lifespan of the Stewards with the similarly shorter lives of the kings of Arnor, who never had a White Tree. I had assumed that Faramir’s longer life was a blessing brought about by his faithfulness in fulfilling his office and the return of the House of Elendil to Gondor. I think it is clear, though, that Tolkien intended that the White Tree’s demise represented a serious loss to Gondor, and that might have been reflected in shorter lives.




Valandil said:


> On the age of Elendil: Just for argument's sake, check out the thread I started on this, also in the "History of Middle Earth" forum at TTF (I think its "Was Elendil REALLY born in 3119?). Because of the relationship between Amandil and Tar-Palantir, I propose that the dates given in "The Heirs of Elendil" are based on earlier versions of "The Akallabeth" - and that Amandil sounds more like the contemporary of Tar-Palantir in the later accounts (dates shown have T-P born in 3118 and Elendil born in 3119 - only a year apart).


About the birth year for Elendil: I tried to be careful documenting (footnoting) which published figures I used. If you put in different data you get different results. I’m not sure how to properly juxtapose Elendil/Amandil with Ar-Pharazôn. (Ar-Pharazôn is the king my Appendix 1 shows born in II 3118; Tar-Palantir’s birth year is dated 3035, and he is contemporary with Amandil, estimated to have been born 3023.) They constitute a good-king/bad-king pair. If they were born at about the same time, the bad king grows very old in Númenor, and the way the story appears in its final form is that Elendil is the good king to Ar-Pharazôn’s bad king. Ar-Pharazôn feels the approach of old age, succumbs to Sauron and his own pride, attacks Aman, and loses all; while Elendil goes on living another 120 years and is healthy, hearty and strong enough to face Sauron in mortal combat on the slopes of Orodruin. (Théoden’s going to war in the twilight of his lifetime thus becomes an echo of Elendil’s doing the same.) I am inclined to think that Tolkien intended this comparison between Elendil and Ar-Pharazôn: he seems to have been working backward to get dates for the Lords of Andúnië (and also for the Lords of Dol Amroth) to make them fit into the scheme he devised for the kings of Númenor. 

In my essay's Appendix 2 the data spreads out the Lords of Andúnië to match the Kings of Númenor, and the result predicts that Elendil should have been born II 3111. Tolkien uses II 3119. I'm happy with that. I think that the match-up is indicative that Tolkien did something similar, even if he did not name all the Lords of Andúnië; otherwise, it's hard to explain the correspondence. He didn’t have to name the Lords of Andúnië, because until Ar- Gimilzôr marries Eärendur‘s niece, Inzilbêth, the story-line is with the kings, and Eärendur is conveniently the first Lord of Andúnië named since Valandil. 

The essay is a report on how I handled the data and then interpreted some of the story from that. Hopefully I footnoted enough so everyone can find the same numbers. There is no reason some other set of dates could not be used, and different results obtained. 




Valandil said:


> After Ondoher: You say that Pelendur the Steward ruled until 1960 - but everything I've seen (both from my LOTR Appendices and from PoME) indicates that it was only one year - from 1944 to 1945 - and that Earnil became King in 1945. Did you see the 1960 date someplace? (ED: Alcuin modified this to 1945) As to the further drop-off in age after Ondoher, note that Earnil was only, IIRC, third cousin to Ondoher's children (second cousin in the PoME account), so he was somewhat removed from the royal line by birth, and possibly not as much 'pure' Numenorean because of that.


Thank you for finding the error! I’d bet that Araphant and Arvedui agreed with you about Eärnil; unfortunately, Pelendur and the Council of Gondor thought otherwise.



Valandil said:


> One interesting thing about Belecthor II is that he also lived significantly longer than the Stewards before him, going back several generations (even though those also would have had a White Tree present). Is there a discrepancy about when he died? I only have paperbacks of LOTR and have found my appendices less than 100% reliable, my App A dates his passing at 2872, but my App B shows it at 2852. PoME gives 2872. I tend to favor the 2872 date, because my App B has no other entries between 2851 and 2885 - and the 2852 date could have been a wrong mixture of his birth year (2752) and death year (2872) from the list shown in PoME. Could someone check the Houghton Mifflin - or other edition known to have a more accurate appendix?





Greenwood said:


> I have a set of the Houghton Mifflin hardcovers of LOTR (1st edition, 13th printing) from the 1960's. It gives those same dates in Appendices A and B.


My edition of RoTK, Appendix A, “The Stewards”, also says Belecthor II died in 2872. Later in “The Stewards”, it says


> When Belecthor II, the twenty-first Steward, died, the White Tree died also in Minas Tirith; but it was left standing ‘until the King returns’, for no seedling could be found.


As for Appendix B, the 1965/1966 one-volume edition (“Red Book”) has 2852. The 1993 edition has 2852. The much-derided Ballantine 34th ed. from Aug. 1972 has 2852. I have corresponded with the publisher on another matter, and I am told the 50th Anniversary edition is available; I don’t have it yet: I understand there are many corrections, mostly minor. I’m inclined to change the date if the 50th Anniversary edition can agree with itself on which year he died, and I’m of the opinion that as time goes on, the publisher will fix errors where he finds ’em.

My point is not whether Belecthor died in 2852 or 2872, but that none of his successors lived beyond 100 until Aragorn & Faramir were in Gondor together. Maybe 2852 is a misprint. If Belecthor died in 2872 rather than 2852, then he was even older, and I think that reinforces the point. 



Thank you both for your comments on the essay!


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## Alatar (May 1, 2005)

Here is a graph i made.


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## Alcuin (May 1, 2005)

Alatar said:


> Here is a graph i made.


That's very good!


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## Alatar (May 2, 2005)

I used the info graphs on your web site to make it.
But i have a problem,whatever i do one numenorian king (on the graph) is equall to a prince of dol amroth.This was very anoying when i ran the lords and the kings (numenorian) side by side as xnumber of lords had to use the same space as ykings. How do i make a priecice graph??


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