# Who is older?



## Numenor (Dec 20, 2005)

In the LOTR books Tom Bombadil says that he was pretty much the first person ever to walk the earth but later in the two towers treebeard is referred to as the "Eldest" so i wonder which one came b4 the other


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## Khôr’nagan (Dec 23, 2005)

Tom Bombadil is definitely older. From what I know, he walked the Earth since the Ainur first entered the world (whether he was one or not is another question altogether). Treebeard is referred to as the eldest because he's the eldest of the Ents, who were awakened by the Elves, and since the Elves didn't even wake up until long after the Ainur entered the world, I don't think there's much question.


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## Majimaune (Dec 23, 2005)

well ive always thought tom was older


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## Elthir (Dec 29, 2005)

Tolkien wrote...



> '_Eldest_ was the courtesy title of Treebeard as the oldest surviving Ent. The Ents claimed to be the oldest 'speaking people' after the Elves {illegible} until taught the art of speech by the Elves...They were therefore placed after the dwarves in the Old List... since Dwarves had the power of speech from their awaking' JRRT
> 
> Unpublished draft letter 1968, Hammond and Scull _The Lord of the Rings Companion_


 
*Galin*


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## Noldor_returned (Dec 29, 2005)

Bombadil, or as I refer to him as Iarwain Ben-adur. Whatsername said it, that Treebeard is the eldest of the Ents, although Iarwain was there first.

Speaking of Bombadil, I just glanced up and saw his name. Further looking showed me: 
*The Hall of Fire* Discussions about everything from whether Balrogs had wings to Ringwraith immortality to Tom Bombadil's race.
I know I've read somewhere that he was a Maiar. Either Tolkien Bestiary, LOTR, Sil or UT.


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## Gothmog (Dec 30, 2005)

Noldor_returned said:


> I know I've read somewhere that he was a Maiar


There are a few places where you may have read that. However, none of them were in any of Tolkien's writings. All Tolkien would say of Tom was that he was an Enigma.


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## Ermundo (Jan 14, 2006)

*Sigh* if only Tolkien were alive


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## Snaga (Jan 15, 2006)

I find you have to be very careful about who is older than who. Remember Gandalf reporting that in the depths of the world below Moria there are nameless creatures, older than Sauron? Well, Sauron is a Maia, and therefore as old as anything could be, so how could something be older? So the text is unreliable!

How old is Treebeard... very old!

How old is Tom Bombadil... we don't know who or what he is, so can't tell how old he is...

Therefore... we don't know for certain who is older.


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## Eriol (Jan 15, 2006)

It seems to me that the age of the Ainur of Arda is "counted" from the moment they enter Arda. This makes Tulkas the youngest Vala, and it explains how the "creatures of the deep" could be older than Sauron. 

Tom Bombadil (and Glorfindel in the Council of Elrond) are clear about how he is the First. He was there before the first raindrop. That makes him clearly older than Treebeard (we must keep in mind that the Ents were created "in reaction" to Aulë's creation of the Dwarves, i.e., long after the Valar entered Arda, even if before the awakening of the Elves). 

Treebeard' title of Eldest is "merely" due to him being one of the first three Ents to be awakened by the Elves (Fangorn, Finglas, Fladrif...).


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## YayGollum (Jan 15, 2006)

Hm. There can't be two Ents with the same name? Or is there some bit of verification in some place that tells me that what you assume is correct, Eriol person? About that Treebeard dude being one of the first to wake up. That seems to me to be pretty creepy, if it was the same Treebeard dude. How come he never fell back to sleep? Or died, if that is the equivalent for them. Anyways, I would go with the Tom Bombadil person for being older. I was mostly here to write that thing at the Eriol person and to point out, yet again, that I see no evidence that the Ainur things can't have kids or that Sauron couldn't have been born way after the beginning of time. *runs away*


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## Eriol (Jan 16, 2006)

YayGollum said:


> Hm. There can't be two Ents with the same name? Or is there some bit of verification in some place that tells me that what you assume is correct, Eriol person? About that Treebeard dude being one of the first to wake up.



Just Treebeard's words; sure, perhaps he was lying or senile (we know we had grounds for that ), but he speaks as if from memory.



> I was moslty here to write that thing at the Eriol person and to point out, yet again, that I see no evidence that the Ainur things can't have kids or that Sauron couldn't have been born way after the beginning of time. *runs away*



Even if in earlier conceptions of Tolkien the Ainur had kids (Eönwë being the son of Manwë and all that), in the Published Silmarillion there seems to be no room for either of your speculations. The Ainulindalë speaks of Eru creating "the Ainur", generically, before time; and there is no mention of any children of an Ainur, the sole exception being Lúthien (and being greatly celebrated for that). 

So, although I would never say that it is impossible, I think the evidence is against it .


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## YayGollum (Jan 16, 2006)

What evidence, Eriol person? I see much room for my crazy speculations, mostly because no information for or against my points is provided. Sure, there was a bit that mentioned some Eru dude poofing a bunch of Ainur things into being at one time, but that is no evidence that he couldn't have made more later. Also, as you wrote, nothing is mentioned either way as to whether the Ainur things can have kids. The stuff in that History Of Middle Earth series at least shows that it shouldn't be some achingly outrageous sort of idea, though.


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## Khôr’nagan (Jan 17, 2006)

I have to agree with Eriol, that time wasn't counted until after the Ainur entered Arda, so things that were there when it was created would technically be older than the Ainur.

I also have to support YayGollum in that there is no evidence to say that the Ainur could not have kids. After all, Lúthien was a daughter of an Ainu, so why couldn't there be more? Not that I'm saying there necessarily were; just that it was a possibility.


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## Ermundo (Jan 17, 2006)

Remember when Tom B. said that he had been here before the Dark Lord entered the world. Well, the dark lord could be either Morgoth or Sauron. (Most problably Sauron) If it were Morgoth, than in Physical form Tom B. would be older than all the Ainur.(Morgoth entered the void first)


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## Glory (Jan 17, 2006)

I do believe Tom Bombadil is older and Treebeard was the oldest ent to be still waking and taking that was awaken by the elves, but not the first one.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Feb 17, 2006)

Treebeard is the eldest Tree Walker Tom is the eldest of all. We're gonna have to open up a ME nursing Home for all these old folk. Treebeard keeps falling asleep, Tom Bombadil is nuts, singing hey bombadillo all the time, the elves are all crying about the sea and magic rings and stuff, and of course Aragorn who says hes 80 but dont look a day over 30


(disclaimer: this is a joke, if you take it literal, go play with a balrog  )


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## Withywindle (Feb 20, 2006)

It depends how you define old or elder. Gandalf tells Theoden that he is going to speak with the oldest living thing in Middle Earth (meaning Treebeard), Treebeard is a living thing in every sense.

Bombadill is not "a living thing". As Maia, he does not have an age,as Goldberry says "He is" - the Ainur are timeless and ageless and to compare their longevity with the living things of Arda is meaningless.

What is more interesting is whether Treebeard is older than one or two of the Elves still knocking about Middle Earth. The Elves woke him up, possibly near Cuivienen, possibly later, but Cirdan and Celeborn were both amongst the first of the First Born - in fact I thought Cirdan was one of those very first Elves. So isn´t Cirdan older than Treebeard. (Unless Treebeard counts the time he was around before the Elves came along and woke him up and taught him speech - when he was just a dumb tree basically).


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## Thorondor_ (Feb 20, 2006)

I think that Treebeard's song, from TTT, is an indication that he is not older than the elves:


> Learn now the lore of Living Creatures!
> First name the four, the free peoples:
> _Eldest of all, the elf-children;_
> Dwarf the delver, dark are his houses;
> ...


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## Bucky (Dec 21, 2007)

When Bombadil mentions that he was there when the 'Dark Lord came in from the Outside', he can ONLY be referring to Melkor.....

Why?

Because only Melkor was the Dark Lord then. 'Sauron of Mordor was only a servant' as Aragorn tells the Hobbits before the attack on Weathertop - he's simply not a Dark Lord when he comes in from the Outside.

Now, onto Bombadil being Eldest, which of course, he is.....

I find you have to be very careful about who is older than who. Remember Gandalf reporting that in the depths of the world below Moria there are nameless creatures, older than Sauron? Well, Sauron is a Maia, and therefore as old as anything could be, so how could something be older? So the text is unreliable!

How old is Treebeard... very old!

How old is Tom Bombadil... we don't know who or what he is, so can't tell how old he is...

Therefore... we don't know for certain who is older.


Yes we do.

Tom states he was "there before the rivers and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn.."
"He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - BEFORE the Dark Lord came from the outside." 

If Tom remembers the first trees & acorns, he CERTAINLY was there before Treebeard.


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