# spies??



## reem (Feb 2, 2003)

on page 190 when the dwarves and Bolbo rach the lonely mountain and they're looking down on the ruins of Dale, they see some crows. were they spies? because i think Balin mentioned something like that. so where they the WoodElves' spies? becuase the King ordered that spies should be sent.
reem


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## Celebthôl (Feb 2, 2003)

errr yeah...? anyway yes they were, spies of the Orcs/Goblins....


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## Glomund (Feb 7, 2003)

I don't think so, Balin said they look like spies of evil, so that means the wood elves did not send them. They probably would have worked for the Orcs, but since the Orcs were not planning to attack the mountain, since Smaug was still around, probably not. I would guess they were just living around the dragons waste.


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## reem (Feb 8, 2003)

yes i believ you might be right. i've almost reached the ending and so far nothing has been mentioned of the Orcs sending any speis. but there's still some more pages to go, and perhaps one more chapter. maybe by then it will all be celared up. but i do have a question concerning the Thrush that told Bard of the gap in Smaugs armour. where does he come in? did any one send him?
reem


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## Eledhwen (Feb 8, 2003)

Saruman was already evil by then, though it was not known, and he had such spies; though if these crows had any such allies, it is more likely they were Orcs or the Necromancer. The Appendix to Lord of the Rings and the book of Unfinished Tales shed light on Saron's (the Necromancer's) plans to use the dragon of Erebor to help wipe out the Elves of Rivendell and Lorien. He will have been keeping an eye on things and, because of such intelligence from the crows, he may have made a move had Gandalf not forced his hand by the cleansing of Dol Guldur.


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## reem (Feb 9, 2003)

hmm...maybe, but i don't think that they were the spies of saruman nor sauron's because:
1-Saruman was never mentioned in the book and he doesn't have a part in that tale. plus i don't think that Tolkien had yet invented him during that time.
2-the Necromancer was onl mentioned as a person to stay away from, and also had no active part in the book. thus i must conclude that it was most likely to be the Orc's doing.
does that make sence?? 
reem


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## Eledhwen (Feb 10, 2003)

Ys, it makes sense, but Tolkien said of his Middle Earth tales that he did not know 'The Hobbit' fitted as he was writing it, but it did. 

You can look at it as a study of what Tolkien had revealed of Middle Earth and its inhabitants at the time he wrote The Hobbit, or you can climb into the story knowing Tolkien's later explanations of how it fitted into the greater Ring Saga. 

eg: Gandalf's disappearance at the entrance to Mirkwood occurred so he could arrange for the scouring of Dol Guldur, which would delay or prevent Sauron's attacks on Lorien and Rivendell, and also divert attention from the Dwarves' quest. This required a meeting of the White Council - lead by Saruman.

I prefer to "climb in" than to study The Hobbit as a discrete entity - which it isn't.


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## reem (Feb 12, 2003)

but we can't take it as a polished part of the LOTR, can we? shouldn't we look at it as the writer meant it to be when he first wrote it? the fact that it happened to fit later out of pure luck is merely incidental...so i think we need to see it how Tokien meant it look when he first wrote it.
so where does that leave us???  
reem


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## Goldberry (Feb 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by reem _
> *yes i believ you might be right. i've almost reached the ending and so far nothing has been mentioned of the Orcs sending any speis. but there's still some more pages to go, and perhaps one more chapter. maybe by then it will all be celared up. but i do have a question concerning the Thrush that told Bard of the gap in Smaugs armour. where does he come in? did any one send him?
> reem *



I don't believe anyone sent the thrush, but somehow, he needed to be there, for the dwarves to find the secret door on Durin's day. Tolkien doesn't tell us much else about the thrush.


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## reem (Feb 13, 2003)

yah i think you're right goldberry. nothing came up on the thrush in the end, so i think he was just a convinients by stander that decided tohelp out a bit.
reem


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## olorin the maia (Feb 16, 2003)

There were many forces at work when the Ring was found. The thrush is foretold earlier in the book by the Moon-letters on Thorin's map of the Mountain. He didn't just happen to be there. As Gandalf explains to Frodo (much later in LOTR) the Ring was _meant_ to be found, and not by its maker.


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## Wolfshead (Feb 17, 2003)

They definately were not spies sent by the Elves. Crows are associated with evil and while the Elves in The Hobbit were arrogant and annoying, they were far from evil.


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## reem (Feb 19, 2003)

i don't seem to reacall any thrush being mentioned in the map...must go check, which page was it?
but despite the elves being the good guys that they were, they still sent spies, i remember it mentioned in the book. good spies, no doubt, but spies nontheless.that's why i was wondering about the thrush.
reem


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## Eledhwen (Feb 19, 2003)

The thrush was unlikely to be a spy of the Elves - it was the King of Dale who could understand the thrush speech. It had to bring an interpreter for the Dwarves, though it did seem to understand their speech.


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## olorin the maia (Feb 23, 2003)

reem, go look in the chapter wherein Bilbo, Gandalf, and the Dwarves visit Elrond in the Last Homely House (known as Rivendell/Imladris in LOTR). Elrond sees and reads the Moon-letters on Thrain's map.


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## Eledhwen (Feb 23, 2003)

Here's an illustration for you...


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