# The "WHAT IF...?" game



## Lhunithiliel (Sep 10, 2002)

I offer to my Tolkien forum-fellows a "brain-storm" challenge to our imagination, called the *WHAT IF...?* game.

The rules are simple:

1. Each "What if..?" - topic will last for a week, maximum two, and then a new one will be offered. I guess a week will be enough for all of us to speculate on the topic offered.

2. The posts may be in ANY form you wish - simply stating your opinion, or changing quotes from the books in a way they'd fit your fantasy - story, or a fiction-story (be brief!), or even post a drawing or a picture (not too large!) that could demonstrate your vision on the topic ... 
Most of the topics, of course, inspire creative writing in prose, poetry and or/and other ways of expressing the artist in us! 

3. Within the time of an on-going topic, please, do not interrupt it by starting another topic(s), for this will stir the order. Everyone, who has a "fresh" suggestion about a new "What if..."-topic, please post your suggestions in the "Workbook" - thread .

*ENJOY !* 

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The previous "What if?.." - games have been archived HERE. 

Everyone is welcome to read those wonderful stories/discussions etc. in order to best understand what a WIG is!


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## spirit (Aug 21, 2004)

> What if the ring had never sat quietly in the Shire, but instead have been noticed by Gandalf for what the Ring truely was. What would happen?



This is what I think would happen:
Gandalf would make Bilbo take the ring to Mordor and Gandalf would go with him. He would also ask the dwarves to go with Bilbo and if the dwarves didn't agree then Gandalf would use his excellent persuasion skills to make them go with Bilbo. Bilbo will be the ring-bearer, not Frodo.
The forces of darkness will not have been very strong at that time, so the journey to Mount Doom will not be a perilous. Their paths will be much different to the paths that where taken by the fellowship. 
They will not need to go through the Mines of Moria therefore Gandalf will not fall into abyss (-and the Balrog will still be alive.)
The ring will be easily taken to Mordor, but Bilbo will not be very willing to through the ring into the volcano. Bilbo will not listen to Gandalf, so Gandalf will loose his temper more powerful than ever, that Bilbo will jump into the volcano with the ring because he was still not willing to separate with the ring. (His last expression will be a "happy" one just as Gollum's when he fell into Mount Doom.)


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## Manveru (Aug 21, 2004)

quite a nice "draft", master spirit. shall we make anything readable out of it?


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## Celebthôl (Aug 21, 2004)

LOL, Sprits a girl dude! lol


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## Manveru (Aug 21, 2004)

not a first blunder on my account, thol (i got used to).
oh, and most sincere sorries, lass.


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## spirit (Aug 22, 2004)

I don't have alot of time on my hands...  
Feel free to make changes


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## Manveru (Aug 22, 2004)

spirit said:


> I don't have alot of time on my hands...
> Feel free to make changes


_wraith_, what say you?


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## Lhunithiliel (Aug 22, 2004)

I'd say that all comments should go to the work-book. That's what it is for!  

Otherwise .... Let's make a story out of it! 

************
"_In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit. ..."_

"Hmmm..." - muttered this hobbit and leaving the quill beside the scattered sheets, leaned back in his comfortable chair. 
Then he stirred, still mumbling out some words, and his hand patted a pocket of his old warm waistcoat, then it disappered into the pocket and in a moment it was out - clenched in a fist.
Bilbo, for that was the name of the hobbit, held his hand tightly closed for a moment longer, then ... opened it ... and there in his palm sparkled a tiny ring of gold.

"My precious!" - smiled the hobbit. "I wonder ... what is on that wizard's mind! Why does he want to speak to me about you? ... And what business do the dwarves have with all that? .... Hmmmm ....".

And ....

*****

next, please


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## Manveru (Sep 5, 2004)

... he span a few times in the middle of a long corridor, then stopped suddenly, scratched his head - as if he wanted to stir his brain cells to work harder. with all these thoughts coming to his mind at the moment, in a mess almost causing a headache, he lost the track of everything.
"what was i thinking of?" - he said to himself. words flew down the corridor and vanished melting with silence of sturdy walls. "Ah, yes!" - exclamed hobbit and ran along straight to his pantry.
a moment later there could be heard a sound of plates, forks, spoons and knives; all was wandering thru householder's agile hands right onto a table.
"i must be swift if i am to make it on time." - murmured he, while thinking how many guests exactly will show up and - what continuously troubled his mind - if they show up.
he managed all. sitting in his comfortable armchair he was smoking his pipe, but before first of his smoke-rings reached a ceiling, a doorbell rang. Bilbo moved uncomfortably in his place with eyes pointed in the direction from where the sound came. he went to open the door. the moment he was reaching for a knob a terrible knocking could be heard.
"i'm coming! i'm coming!" - Bilbo shouted, red with anger for he didn't like to be urged (like most of us, right?). he pulled the knob and wanted to rebuke an impatient guest(s), but words choked in his throat. all he could stutter out came to: "master Gandalf?..."

***

off to you (whoever you are)


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## Astaldo (Sep 9, 2004)

-What happened to you?
-Quickly get ready. Pack your stuff and prepare for a long journey.
-What is happening my friend, asked quite afraid Bilbo.
-We do not have time for explanation. I will tell you on our way, said Gandalf while he was looking outside as he was waiting for someone to come.

In few minutes they were both on Gandalf's cart going out of Hobbiton.
-Well are you going to tell me where are we going?
-We are heading to Rivendell my old friend, but first we have to stop and meet some old friends.
-Why do you always have to be so secretive Gandalf?
-Everything should be revealrd in the right time, said Gandalf laughing.

After travelling half a day they stopped for a meal too simple but for a Hobbit was very stisfying after a journey of so many hours. Suddenly after finishing their meal Bilbo's ear "catched" something in the air coming from the nearby bushes.
-I think something is watching us Gandalf.
-Don't worry, for now I think we are safe. An old friend of mine is protecting us but only for a while. We must go now if we want to be at the meeting point until night.


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## Astaldo (Sep 12, 2004)

Come on guys is there anybody to continue the story?


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## Lhunithiliel (Sep 22, 2004)

"Wizards!" - groaned within his thoughts Bilbo. " Never tell you what you need to know!.... _'All in its time'_.... Ha! HE may have ALL the time he needs! He is a wizard!!! But what about my old weary bones?! ... And where is he taking me to? !!"

Those thoughts troubled the Hobbit's mind while he was sitting beside the tall wizard - not very comfortably at that, for the road was rough and it was getting cool ... and for Dragon's sake!... It was time for *dinner*!!! 

Night was falling swiftly and the skies grew darker. As the wizard did not speak, Bilbo decided it was better for him to stop thinking of unpleasant things and enjoy the journey as much as he could. The Hobbit knew Gandalf and the way he would break out his intentions - always in the least expected time, always taking the one's breath out by the things he says, always making one feel sorry he ever met that wizard, always having a reason that no one could object to... That was Gandalf's way...

Bilbo's hand had cozily slipped into the warm pocket of his vest; he even hadn't noticed how and when... That had become a habit of his - whener troubled, he would get grip of his precious tiny ring. And it was the sam now! His hand was firmly holding the ring. Then ... Bilbo's fingers started to play with the trinket... 
For a tiny second the Hobbit thought he could put the ring on and disapper ... and he smiled and quietly giggled thinking of how surprised the wizard would be then!!! ...
Right at that very same moment, Bilbo jumped risking to roll over and down from teh cart. For there came the voice of the wizard - so suddenly!, even though his voice was calm and quiet:

"It's good you're still having it with you, Bilbo!" - said Gandalf. "Though ... I knew that if needed you'd take *only* it and leave everything else ..." And he smiled.

Bilbo did not believe his own ears! 

"What *IT* are you speaking of, my friend? " - his voice was trembling.

"The ring, of course! Why! Have you ever doubted it, my friend, that I know of your trinket?!"

"A trinket, eh?" ... grinned the Hobbit. "A trinket it may be for you, wizard, but it is precious to me! And mine it is! Only mine!" 
His eyes sparkled... Or was that a star from the evening sky shone reflected ?

"Oh, yes, of course!" - sighed the wizard. "Don't you now get upset! It is yours and you and I shall have a talk about it.... Soon... Very soon! ... We are almost there...."
And he fell silent again.
But Bilbo's mind was ready to explode!
*******


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## Astaldo (Sep 22, 2004)

Night came down at Middle-earth but the travelers did not seem to stop for the night.


“Are we going to stop for the night Gandalf?” – said Bilbo. “I have to eat something. No-one can make such a long journey with only one meal and that too simple to be considered as a regular meal”

“One more hour and everything will be revealed and you will have your desired meal and believe me it will not be ‘simple’ ” – replied Gandalf.

If he had looked at Bilbo he would have seen that finally a smile of happiness drawn in his face as he heard that he is going to eat something that will not be simple. But suddenly the look of his face changed.

“Where are we going to stop? The road continues into the Old Forest. I hope we are not going to enter. You know the stories that are said in the Green Dragon for this forest. ‘Everyone who enters the Old Forest cannot exit it’. Please Gandalf tell me that we are not going to enter.”

“Come on Bilbo get serious. It’s the safest place for our meeting. No-one will see us. And besides I have entered it a lot of times. Believe me you are not in danger as long as I am with you” – said Gandalf

“Okay then. If you say so…”

The hour was passing and the road seemed the same. Everywhere trees and branches above their heads. The light of the moon was long gone and the only light he was able to see was the light from the top of Gandalf’s staff. 

After a while he saw a fire or he thought that he saw.

“Is this a fire Gandalf or I need a sleep?”

“Yes it’s the camp we are heading to. Now you will meet some friends of mine.”

They walked the last meters of the road and then the camp revealed. There was a fire in the middle and five persons around it.

“Finally you are here” – said one dark haired strange man. “The food is almost cold”

“We will eat but first I want to introduce all of you to Bilbo Baggins. You all know him. Isn’t it? – said Gandalf. “Well Bilbo this is Aragorn, son of Arathorn” said for the man that spoke. “And this is Gimli, son of Glóin. Do you remember Glóin? These are Elladan and Elrohir son of Elrond, Lord of Rivendell. You will soon meet him. And finally a very old friend of mine. This is Tom Bombadil.”

The strange man bowed as he was holding his hat with a long blue feather on it. 

“Good evening master Hobbit” – he said.


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## Astaldo (Oct 14, 2004)

_"What is going on here Gandalf? And who are these. I still cannot understand anything"_

_"I think it's better to eat something first and the I will explain you everything",_ replied Gandalf_._

After a small dinner the companions sat around the fire and remained silenced. Finally Gandalf broke this silence:

_"Now it's time to learn averything that you want Bilbo. As I told you we are heading for Rivendell. Our final destination is not Elrond's realm though. We will rest there for a while and the we will set up for a very difficult and unsure journey. The purpose of this journey is very important to the continuation of freedom in Middle-earth and..."_

_"The continuation of..."_

_"Do not be hasty Bilbo wait and you will find the answers you seek. As I said for the continuation of freedom our journey must be succesful. Do you remember the ring you found in Gollum's Cave. We must destroy it. It will be our doom if it will not be destroyed."_

Hearing this words Bilbo put his hand in his left pocket and touched very gently his ring. He could not destroy it. It was his precious. How Gandalf was asking him to do something like this?

_"So now that we all learned why we met here I think we should sleep and expalin everyhting better in the morning"_, said Tom.


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## Lhunithiliel (Oct 16, 2004)

Pale and cool came the morning. High in the skies Arien - the Sun Maiden was still playing with the stars of Varda chasing them to the far horizons and leaving behind a deep clear azure.
A day was coming.
A day when the fate of Middle-earth was to be decided!

* * * 

Gandlaf opened his eyes and trying to keep quiet stretched carefully his legs and arms. 
"Aaaah!" - he thought, "This mortal shell aches so much!.... Time to get up, though, ol'man!" - and he smiled at his very own thoughts. "Ol' man!... By Eru!" - Ancient he was if compared to that little fellow Baggins! Yet .... he loved him dearly!
Bilbo...

"Bilbo!" - whispered Gandalf, looking around the camp. 
"Bilbo?" - his voice raised a tone higher, for his eyes could not see the small figure of the Hobbit. 
Besides, he noticed a couple of more people missing - the Elven brothers were not there and neither was Aragorn!

The wizard rose to his feet now and his face did look worried.

"Bilbo!" - almost cried he.

At that time, out of the wood, from behind the nearest trees, there appeared Elladan.

"I am sorry, Master Mithrandir, but it seems that the halfling has left us. My brother has already gone to trace his tracks, while Aragorn went to get some game for our breakfast."

"Gone ?.... GONE!!!" - Gandalf's eyes were now flashing. "Fool of a Hobbit!"
Then he turned to the young Elf : "Elladan, please, summon your brother and Aragorn back and... get everyone up and ready.!'

"Ready? For what Master?" 

"Don't ask now!" - said Gandalf and walked with quick and wide steps towards the wood.... And while he has almost disappeared among the first trees, Elladan could still hear him saying:
"I'll be soon with you. Get ready!"

* * * 

On a rock on the top of a hill, rising high above the wood, stood Gandlaf the wizard.
He turned to the West, raised his arms towards the clear morning skies, one hand - holding firmly his staff.
Then he spoke - loud and brisk his voice was and not of this world those words were that he spoke!

And then.... far there on the horizon a cloud appeared - dark and mighty it spread wide and the azure of the morning shrinked in fear and fled. 
The wizard's voice became even louder and it was as if attracting that cloud, because it sped accross the skies right towards the wizard's staff - that now all gleaming with a strange white light.

And soon that cloud came nearer and ... in a few moments ... there - on the top of that high hill above the wood ... it landed right beside Gandalf.

"Welcome, Lord of the Eagles of Manwe the Great!" - saluted Gandalf and bowed deeply.

There stood the proud Maia-bird - the mighty Gwaihir, whom Gandalf had summoned and who had come like a cloud from the Western marches of the world.

"You have summoned me, brother Mithrandir, and I have come. I have also brought with me some of my borthers, for the task you need us for might need the force of more than my two wings. Lord Manwe let us follow your summons and here we are - at your service. What can we do for you?"

********

... your turn !


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## Astaldo (Oct 17, 2004)

Lhunithiliel said:


> "Aaaah!" - he thought, "This mortal shell aches so much!


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## Alatar (May 11, 2005)

*The return of The "WHAT IF...?" game*

This is a great game.
So what if fingolfin did launch an assult on angband before the bragolach as he planed?
well Thingol would show up as would the Sons of finarfin,and ulfang miaght not betray them...

And Fingolfin gazed upon The iron mountains and behald the eagle of Manwe on the very peaks of that hell.
"Behold O Elves, Men and Dwarves, today dawn rises!" and across te green ard galen the hill forts of the noldor cheered for a greatr number of princes were there, Turgon,Finrod,Fingon,Fingolfin,Brahir,Galdor,Haldir,The sons of Feanor,Thingol who had gathered all his realm from the falasthirhim to the green elves, and the dwarves of belgost and nogrod.


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## spirit (May 17, 2005)

::Is slightly confused by Alatar's post::   


********************************************************


It was almost dawn, and poor little Bilbo was feeling anxious. Gandalf wanted to destroy the precious... _ “but that will leave me empty handed,” _ Bilbo though to himself. It was terrible...

Without enough food in his stomach, he was unable to think straight... He got up and picked up his walking stick. _ “off I go back to my dear little Shire,” _ The others were still sleeping.

He had barely travelled for an hour, but his body felt as sore as though he had been walking for an age... He decided to take a small rest. 
Out of the sky, suddenly, there were arrows being fired toward his direction... Scared and hopeless as he way, he wished had never left the stubborn wizard’s side...


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## Alatar (May 17, 2005)

The orinal thread ended a year ago, when i started it again I thought a new IF would work as the old IF's carachters havent been active for a few months.
So I hope that cleared it up.


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## Sauron (Jul 8, 2007)

Once the current 'what-if' storyline is finished (if ever, that is), I have another suggestion the rest of y'all can follow:

What if Isildur, his sons, and the rest of his bodyguard were not ambushed and overwhelmed at the Gladden Fields, but instead make it back safely to Annuminas with the One Ring still in his possession?


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## Lhunithiliel (Jul 10, 2007)

*Sauron*,
Let's hope you can revive the game. It'll be interesting to watch how it goes. Good luck!


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## baragund (Jul 10, 2007)

Hmmm... an interesting scenario.

My first thought was, "That's easy. He would eventually be consumed by the Ring and become another ring wraith, just like one of the Nine." But that doesn't work because the Nine each their own ring to bind them to Sauron, and Saurone wouldn't exactly let Isildur keep the One.

Then I thought "Well, Isildur would be consumed by the Ring, and use it to rule all of Middle-earth as if he was a repackaged version of Sauron." But that doesn't work either because Sauron isn't exactly "dead" but just severely diminished. As Sauron recovers from his defeat at Mount Doom, he would re-assert his control over the Ring and, through it, over Isildur. 

I think that would be the scenario. Isildur would become a kind of faux Dark Lord for a time, but eventually he would be brought under Sauron's control. Sauron would take back the Ring and have his kingdom all set up for him. Isildur would then be killed or be forced to live out the rest of his live as a thrall.


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## Starbrow (Aug 8, 2007)

I wonder how long it would take for Isildur to "fade" and become more wraith-like. Do you think he would try to hide how the ring is changing him by faking his death or something? I don't think he would.


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## baragund (Aug 9, 2007)

It seems to me the process would be pretty quick. The Ring exerted enough control over Isildur to keep him from destroying it at Mt. Doom against all better judgement. I Figure the time he had it in his possession was a few hours: time to catch his breath from the battle, maybe get a bite to eat and drink, and hike up to the Cracks of Doom. It would not be long at all before he would be completely under its' control. 

Rather than fake his death, I can see a scenario where the Ring would have such complete control over Isildur in his physical body that he would be practically possessed by Sauron's spirit. Sauron would want that because Isildur would be present in body to maintain support of the peoples of Gondor and Arnor while he goes about doing Sauron's bidding and setting up his kingdom (re: empire) the way Sauron wants it. You know, expand the territories, subjugate other peoples, declare war on Lindon, Rivendell and Lorien. Do all the dirty work as Sauron's puppet for a couple hundred years (don't forget how long-lived Numenoreans were supposed to be anyway), and then cast him aside when Sauron has recovered enough of his strength to return in a more physical form. Heck, that way he might even recover enough of his original grandeur to return as Annatar, the Lord of Gifts.


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## Alatar (Apr 1, 2008)

I don't think he could ever build up to before Numenor.

But other than that you make sense
With the Numenoreans supporting him Sauron would rise much quicker.


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## Firawyn (Apr 8, 2008)

Lemmy try and revive this game...it seems like alot of fun.


"What if...Galadriel had taken the Ring from Frodo?"


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## Aisteru (Sep 11, 2008)

Total chaos. If one of the most powerful beings in Middle Earth would be unable to resist the drawn of the ring, the entire world would fall. Let me specify.

If a person who was already incredibly powerful gained the Ring of Power, they would be nearly unstoppable. The fellowship would have obviously failed and I think a massive war would break out among the forces of good. Although, it is entirely possible that everyone else would completely oppose Galadriel and her rise to power would be stifled. 

Interesting idea though.


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## YayGollum (Sep 16, 2008)

Oh. sorry about that. Come on! Why was this not yet predicted? ---> 

The evil Galadriel takes over. At first, people are hopeful. Sauron and his minions are pretty much eliminated. Of course, Sauron would keep respawning, but he'd get weaker all the time, there'd be an intelligence network for finding Sauron every time he gets back and a superly elite Sauron exterminating unit who'd have wacky adventures while traveling all over the world. He would be a threat with all kinds of different plans, but he'd eventually get beaten every time. 

His last real chance would be at the battle in Lothlorien on the side of The Last Alliance (Pending Further Treaties) Of Orcs And Wargs. Of course, other races would be involved, but they weren't seen as important enough to be included in the title. Anyways, she'd get her finger cut off, and some Orc would run off with it as a snack and the One Ring as a trophy, merely to be gunned down (there might be guns by this time) while invisible in some body of water that his murderers were too stupid to find him in. 

Eventually, poor Smeagol would find the One Ring thing again. You see, during his many attempts to get his security blanket back, he spent too long in Lothlorien, which strengthened his Smeagolity. He'd spend his days peacefully (as he always did) while hiding out in some hole in the ground, sucking eggses or something until the annoying Puce Mage, thirteen Orcs looking to reclaim Mount Gundabad, and an evilly thieving Wereworm have an unintentional adventure in Lothlorien. While escaping, the Wereworm gets separated, meets poor Smeagol, beats the guy up, and steals all of his stuff, including the One Ring. 

As you might be able to predict, the One Ring makes its way to the Last Desert, far from Galadriel's evil. It stays there until Galadriel sends her trusted allies (based on intel extracted from the ever-useful and always downtrodden Smeagol), the, um, Nicegul, to reclaim what most by this time believe to be rightfully hers. The Puce Mage, of course, is aware and sends his old thief buddy's niece towards the safety of Reaverdell and the Last Evil-Oriented House, where Sauron's spirit festers. 

This niece, a well-off snootbag of a Wereworm who's never had to steal a bit of treasure for herself, is joined by a couple of other thieves and her bodyguard, who is composed primarily of large gobs of pure evil. His name is sam, for some reason. They have a lucky encounter with the enigmatic Prince Tevildo (he got his collar fixed up, and he's been hiding, waiting for the time when cats will be more popular than dogs) who totally saves them from some nasssty hobbitses. They get stalked by an Orc for a bit, but he joins the group, and everyone eventually finds out that he's some kind of descendant of some kind of important Orc, not that it would matter, since Orcs are too sensible to care about who you happen to be related to. 

They get to Reaverdell and find that a bunch of other uninvited guests showed up, too. They get stuck with a Hobgoblin, a troll, and some other Orc who mirrors Boromir, as well as meeting up with the Puce Mage, who has some crazy story about his Black Mage (now calling himself the Clear, for some reason) superior becoming inconvenient. Nobody really cares about his side story, though. Sauron can't stop laughing as he sends them on their way to Mount Doom. He's down to spirit form, so he can't use the One Ring anymore, anyways, and he's just happy to be messing with Galadriel. 

Of course, events do not proceed as planned, the Puce Mage gets killed by some Entwife, who was only in the place to see what Orcs ate in their caves. Eru gives him an identical body and the title of Black Mage, though, just because he's crazy. They meet up with a gang of trolls who, always a source of useful treasure that they never get any use out of, hand over, among other things, a jar of Ungoliant's Super Darkness. After that, they get separated during an attack of hideous half-elves (rounded ears, beards, and annoying songs?). 

The two Wereworms who don't decide to abandon the main storyline are confused for a while by gifts of cooked rabbits and lembas being left for them with nice and plaintive notes to please give poor Smeagol his security blanket back. They eventually stay awake during the day and catch him. Turns out that poor Smeagol never wins, whether he's nice or not. They are all kinds of suspicious of the guy, but he says that he knows how to get past the many defenses of the much cheerier Mordor. 

In Cirith Ungol, poor Smeagol repeatedly apologizes after introducing them to Tom Bombadil, who moved there when he got bored of Goldberry. They blind him with Ungoliant's Super Darkness, but he knocks the main character (not poor Smeagol. The other one) out and runs away, distracted by something else. The evil sam takes the One Ring and leaves his employer for dead, not really bothering to make sure (he probably would have slit his throat, anyway). He smacks himself in the forehead when he remembers that he forgot to pilfer the guy's armour and ends up accidentally rescuing him from a bunch of humans who already had the armour mailed off to their superiors. 

They easily slip their way up to Mount Doom, where poor Smeagol (contrariwise to his initial niceness in the original tale) sneak attacks them. They make it inside Mount Doom, though, but the thought suddenly strikes the lady that maybe she could use the One Ring for herself (Sauron hasn't been attempting to mess with them, so this is just the One Ring's self preservation programming working). Poor Smeagol saves the day in the same way he did in the original tale, awesomely, and the Wereworms finally shift to their dragon forms and fly away. 

Alternatively, the hero Gollum sneaks his way into Lothlorien, bites Galadriel's finger off, takes his security blanket, and lives in his cave with his fish until the end of the world.


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## Illuin (Sep 17, 2008)

Now that is good. I almost fell out of my Captain Kirk swivel chair reading that. That’s a quick wit; I must say.


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## chrysophalax (Sep 17, 2008)

Brilliant and absolutely terrifying...


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## YayGollum (Sep 17, 2008)

Hm? It's not scary. Where is it scary? I still think that I should have gone with my gut reaction and called it the Last Ghastly House. It fits, but I didn't know why they'd want to call it that, so I stuck with an honest and exaggerated title. oh well. Anyways, the rules say that this topic should be done, and a new one should be offered.

What if Cirdan kept his Ring Of Power?


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## chrysophalax (Sep 17, 2008)

You mean if it hadn't become useless after the One was destroyed? Hmmmm...

I suppose what with all the major killjoys had gone West, he could finally implement his long-held dream of turning the Havens into a vacation hot-spot for Rangers, Hobbits and what/whoever needed some time away from their usual lives.

Just imagine it...coconut palms with large hammocks strung between them, a constant light breeze wafting gently along the pristine white sand beaches, with nary a Nazgul in sight. 

Rehabilitated orcs (those without too many disfiguring scars and full use of all their limbs) would bring the holiday makers tall drinks, while Cirdan's former harbour staff transitioned into their new roles as tourist guides offering trips to the Tower Hills. 

Not a bad way to retire!


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## YayGollum (Sep 17, 2008)

No, I meant ---> What if he never gave the thing to the evil torturer Gandalf?


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## chrysophalax (Sep 17, 2008)

He would just then have waited until the whole ruckus was over and then implemented his plans for his pleasure beach, complete with rides.

If you actually mean seriously, then I think this brings us back to what the definition of each ring's power truly is.Are they based on the elements of air, fire and water (if so, what happened to earth?) or...are their powers defined by their users?


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## YayGollum (Sep 17, 2008)

The One Ring is earth-based, of course. While Sauron would have had uses for those other elements in his Ruling Ring, he planned to be controlling all of them, anyways, so he gave himself the most stable element, that which would always keep him safely tethered to earth. Anyways, I didn't see how this question brings up such other questions. I was looking for speculation on things the evil torturer Gandalf would have done without his Ring Of Power. He wouldn't be able to toy with people's brains, turning soldiers into monsters who know no fear. He'd probably still have been able to torturer poor Smeagol, though. *sniff* The balrog might have killed him and gotten away, due to one less threat making him nervous? I've still got one more. Anything else from anybody?


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## Illuin (Sep 17, 2008)

And the little hobbit kiddies wouldn’t have had those cool fireworks displays.


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## Turgon (Sep 17, 2008)

Hehe! Your Galadriel theory was the funniest read I've had in a while Yay - it really cheered me up.


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## chrysophalax (Sep 18, 2008)

Fine, fine...I'll keep my poor attempts at humour to myself. I did think I saw the word "game" in the title here...


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## Turgon (Sep 18, 2008)

Aww Chrys...

Rehabilitated Orcs serving drinks? Sounds like a night out in Manchester to me...

Other than that I've forgotten eggzactly what vacations are - not having been on one since the latter stages of the 20th century...


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## childoferu (Jul 11, 2009)

So, um, who's next with the "what if..."


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## Illuin (Jul 11, 2009)

"What if" childoferu is next? Go for it!


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## childoferu (Jul 13, 2009)

Well, okay then, my first Tolkien "what if"...feeling kind of nervous...okay, I don't know if this is a good one or if its already been said, but *WHAT IF*...eowyn had been slain before she engaged the Witch-King? Even with a dwindled army, could the Enemy have proved victorious under the leadership of the *WITCH-KING OF ANGMAR*?


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## Illuin (Jul 21, 2009)

Hi CEO, I mean COE ,


I'll answer your _"what if"_ question with another _"what if"_ question. _What if_ it was actually Merry (a Hobbit - technically speaking, not a _"man"_) and his _*enchanted sword*_ that did the Witch-King in, and Éowyn's strike was unnecessary? 


Here's a quote from an unpublished portion of Tolkien's essay "_The Hunt for the Ring_": 

[Frodo] _*"had dared to strike at him with an enchanted sword made by his own enemies long ago for his destruction,"*_ and that a wound from a barrow blade _*"would have been as deadly to him as the Mordor-knife was to Frodo (as was proved in the end)"*_.

Also, in _"The Departure of Boromir"_, Aragorn says (concerning Merry and Pippin's swords [knives]):

_*"Doubtless the Orcs despoiled them, but feared to keep the knives, knowing them for what they are: work of Westernesse, wound about with spells for the bane of Mordor."*_


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## childoferu (Jul 21, 2009)

Illuin said:


> Hi CEO, I mean COE ,
> 
> 
> I'll answer your _"what if"_ question with another _"what if"_ question. _What if_ it was actually Merry (a Hobbit - technically speaking, not a _"man"_) and his _*enchanted sword*_ that did the Witch-King in, and Éowyn's strike was unnecessary?
> ...


 
1. Wait, if we are _technically _speaking, aren't hobbits men, at least categorized under the umbrella of men? 

2. Okay, okay, if TOLKIEN himself wrote that, then I guess I would have to give more credit to your theory, however, I highly doubt that Tolkien meant to have Eowyn's Big Moment at Pellenor Fields, maybe both actions were needed............I guess

3. So _do _you think that say if Eowyn and Merry were slain before they tried fulfilling any prophecy, that the forces of the west would have fell?

p.s. I been meaning to ask you, do you mind starting the Trivia game back up in the Hall of Fire


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## Illuin (Jul 21, 2009)

> Originally posted by *childoferu*
> _So do you think that say if Eowyn and Merry were slain before they tried fulfilling any prophecy, that the forces of the west would have fell?_


 
I personally don't think it would have made that much of a difference if the Witch-King lived or died. It may have prolonged the Battle of the Pelennor Fields if he lived, and more would have died, but on the whole it wouldn't have mattered too much IMHO. Of course it was _"better"_ that he was dead




. 

Darkness was lifted a bit when 'The Lord of the Ringwraiths had met his doom' -

*"Under the lifting skirts of the dreary canopy dim light leaked into Mordor like pale morning through the grimed window of a prison. ‘Look at it, Mr. Frodo!’ said Sam. ‘Look at it! The wind’s changed. Something’s happening. He’s not having it all his own way. His darkness is breaking up out in the world there. I wish I could see what is going on!"* - LoTR: The Land Of Shadow

Also, when Éomer then saw Éowyn unconscious believing she was dead, he went berserk and led a death charge that, in conjunction with Aragorn's arrival, turned the tide of the battle. 

All in all though, with Gandalf (_The White_) present, and Frodo still on his way to Mount Doom, I really don't think it would have made a significant difference on the whole if the Witch-King lived or died at Minas Tirith. The Witch-King was sent there to get the Ring anyway. Sauron believed that Aragorn now had the Ring, and had taken it to Minas Tirith in order to use the city as a base from to prepare an assault on Mordor by using it against Sauron. Sauron wanted to prevent this, and so he prematurely commanded the Witch-King to attack the city, hoping to take the Ring by force before Aragorn could accomplish such an attack. 

So, the Witch-King had absolutely no idea what was going on. Clueless. These events were all merely distractions anyway so Frodo, Sam, and Gollum could sneak their way into Sammath Naur. Simply put, the enemy was totally confused, and didn't have much of a chance to begin with. The plan of Gandalf, Elrond, and later Aragorn (with the Orthanc-stone) was indeed very tricksy, and the enemy was behind the eight ball every step of the way; Witch-King, or no.



> Originally posted by *childoferu*
> _p.s. I been meaning to ask you, do you mind starting the Trivia game back up in the Hall of Fire _


 
OK. I looked and it's my turn anyway. Must have forgotten about it.


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## childoferu (Jul 21, 2009)

Illuin said:


> Simply put, the enemy was totally confused, and didn't have much of a chance to begin with.


 

Wow, I don't think anyone has ever put it that way 

I guess its your turn for the what-if, or I could do another one I suppose........


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## Illuin (Jul 22, 2009)

> Originally posted by *childoferu*
> _Wow, I don't think anyone has ever put it that way _


 
Just to clarify, the confusion and "panic" of the enemy kicked into high gear when Aragorn duped Sauron using the Orthanc-stone. Because Sauron was oblivious to the master plan, the enemy was always out of the loop; but he didn't realize he was in a heap of hurt until he had that little chat with Aragorn. Sauron was just wingin' it after that point.


While we are on the subject, why don't we use that for a _"what if"_ question?

**What if Aragorn never pulled a fast one on Sauron using the Orthanc-stone?*

Try to concoct a sequence of _"altered"_ events that would take place if that never happened.


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## childoferu (Jul 22, 2009)

So start the string of altered events from _if_ Aragorn never used the palantiri at all or _if_ Aragorn used the palantiri but somehow Sauron discovered the master plan


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## Illuin (Jul 22, 2009)

> Originally posted by *childoferu*
> _So start the string of altered events from if Aragorn never used the palantiri at all or if Aragorn used the palantiri but somehow Sauron discovered the master plan_


 
Let's say that somehow Aragorn never had the opportunity to use it (i.e to con Sauron into believing he had the Ring in other words).


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## childoferu (Jul 22, 2009)

Illuin said:


> Let's say that somehow Aragorn never had the opportunity to use it (i.e to con Sauron into believing he had the Ring in other words).


 
Hmm, questionable to say, instead of sending his main force to besiege Osgiliath and then Minas Tirith, I guess he would focused more on his alternative: Destroying Lorien, Thranduil's realm in Mirkwood, and the Dwarf/Man alliance in Erebor. Well, actually wait, he was aware that Isildur's heir was alive and well, so I say he still would have wanted to destroying his ancient enemines in Gondor, then the final Kingdom of Men(if Saruman had, _which_ he did) and then finally Lorien, Mirkwood, and Erebor. Then again...maybe it wouldn't have mattered, this is complicated 

ok, ok, my final musing...I'm thinking Sauron would have sent his main force to Minas Tirith despite his dealing with Aragorn just so he could make sure men were no longer a factor in his war


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## Withywindle (Jul 24, 2009)

We know that Aragorn's using the palantir precipitated the attack on Minas Tirith, which went off half-cocked as it were. It was just enough to tip the balance to a victory for the West (even then Gondor would have been overrun had it not been for the unexpected help of the Dead).

So the immediate conclusion is that Sauron would have waited a little longer, gathering more forces; he would have made better preparations against a flank attack by the Rohirrim, and the Corsairs would have finished their work in the south of Gondor. In that case, Gondor would almost certainly have been given her death-blow, closely followed by the destruction of Rohan.

The second aim of Aragorn was to draw attention away form Mordor, and to convince the Enemy that the Ring had found a bearer who intended to use it in war. This relaxed the watch on Mordor a little, giving Frodo more chance to get through. I don't think, though, that the success of the Quest was too heavily influenced by Aragorn's actions, as Frodo had chosen to enter Mordor by Cirith Ungol anyway.


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## childoferu (Jul 24, 2009)

Withywindle said:


> We know that Aragorn's using the palantir precipitated the attack on Minas Tirith, which went off half-cocked as it were. It was just enough to tip the balance to a victory for the West (even then Gondor would have been overrun had it not been for the unexpected help of the Dead).
> 
> So the immediate conclusion is that Sauron would have waited a little longer, gathering more forces; he would have made better preparations against a flank attack by the Rohirrim, and the Corsairs would have finished their work in the south of Gondor. In that case, Gondor would almost certainly have been given her death-blow, closely followed by the destruction of Rohan.
> 
> The second aim of Aragorn was to draw attention away form Mordor, and to convince the Enemy that the Ring had found a bearer who intended to use it in war. This relaxed the watch on Mordor a little, giving Frodo more chance to get through. I don't think, though, that the success of the Quest was too heavily influenced by Aragorn's actions, as Frodo had chosen to enter Mordor by Cirith Ungol anyway.


 
Wow, I think that about sums it up, do you wish to give a "What If..." Withywindle, or wait, I think you have to get permission from Illuin


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## Illuin (Jul 24, 2009)

That was good CoE & WW. Although I think the Quest would have failed *HUGE* were it not for Aragorn's bluff (for more reasons than I can count). Gandalf knew exactly what he was doing when he gave the palantír to Aragorn after the Pippin incident. He _hinted_ Aragorn should _USE IT_ (but he should not do so..................yet ). 

OK, one of you go. First come, first serve.


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## childoferu (Jul 25, 2009)

Well, okay I got another one although I'm highly sure this has been asked before, *WHAT IF...*Faramir *HAD* gone to rivendell instead of Boromir, with Boromir still charged with the defense of Osgiliath?

Hah, its actually funny cause even though many people like this idea, IMO it would f'd up things royally


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## Firawyn (Jul 25, 2009)

Humm, I've thought about this a bit myself. 

The conclusion that I've come to is that Boromir may not have yielded Osgiliath as Faramir did, but he would have died trying to stop Mordor. As far as Firamir, I think that you've got to consider that the longer someone is around the Ring, the more they are effected by it. Perhaps Firamir was more nobel and resistent to the ring, but Boromir was not weak either, just more stupid. I think that it would have taken longer, but Faramir would also have given in to the temptation of the ring.


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## Withywindle (Jul 27, 2009)

We know that the force of destiny - Illuvatar himself or whoever it was - that lies behind the struggle of the West against Sauron, and especially the Quest itself, sent the dream of the "seek for the sword that was broken" to Faramir on more than one ocasion, which tells us that Faramir was intended by Fate to go to Rivendell. Why Boromir got the dream as well, though only the once, is a puzzlement.

Personally, I've always got the impression that Boromir lied about that and that he never got the dream at all. It strikes me as a bit like Smeagol´s story of the Birthday Present: he felt the Ring should have come to him and so invented a story that he himself ended up half believing. I think Boromir heard about Isildur´s Bane in Faramir's dream and from that moment he started to go off the rails, leading to his lying about getting the dream himself, insisting on going to Rivendell and ultimatley leading to his death.

If that is the case then we can say that Boromir was always doomed to come to a sticky end. At the same time, we can say that the Force of Destiny had correctly chosen Faramir to be one of the Felloiwship. That being so we can be sure at least that he would have been a great help on the road and would not have succumbed to the temptetion of the Ring. Whether Fate had intended something more from Faramir - such as his accompanying Frodo into Mordor - we cannot say.


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## childoferu (Jul 27, 2009)

Withywindle said:


> We know that the force of destiny - Illuvatar himself or whoever it was - that lies behind the struggle of the West against Sauron, and especially the Quest itself, sent the dream of the "seek for the sword that was broken" to Faramir on more than one ocasion, which tells us that Faramir was intended by Fate to go to Rivendell. Why Boromir got the dream as well, though only the once, is a puzzlement.
> 
> Personally, I've always got the impression that Boromir lied about that and that he never got the dream at all. It strikes me as a bit like Smeagol´s story of the Birthday Present: he felt the Ring should have come to him and so invented a story that he himself ended up half believing. I think Boromir heard about Isildur´s Bane in Faramir's dream and from that moment he started to go off the rails, leading to his lying about getting the dream himself, insisting on going to Rivendell and ultimatley leading to his death.
> 
> If that is the case then we can say that Boromir was always doomed to come to a sticky end. At the same time, we can say that the Force of Destiny had correctly chosen Faramir to be one of the Felloiwship. That being so we can be sure at least that he would have been a great help on the road and would not have succumbed to the temptetion of the Ring. Whether Fate had intended something more from Faramir - such as his accompanying Frodo into Mordor - we cannot say.


 
Boromir Lying?! BLASPHEMY! 

Haha, jk, but it would make sense, if it makes so much more sense that Faramir should have been apart of the fellowship and Boromir stayed in Gondor, then...why do you think Tolkien made the switch?


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## Withywindle (Aug 3, 2009)

O.K. here´s a BIG "what if":

What if Illuvatar had not intervened aginst Ar-Pharazon's assault on Valinor, but had left the Valar to fend for themselves?


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## Illuin (Aug 3, 2009)

> _Originally posted by *Withywindle*_
> _O.K. here´s a BIG "what if":_
> 
> _What if Illuvatar had not intervened aginst Ar-Pharazon's assault on Valinor, but had left the Valar to fend for themselves?_


 

Manwë and his close-knit incompetent clique would have debated and remained inert as usual, prompting Tulkas and Ulmo to take matters into their own hands, and like Fëanor & Co_._; they too would have been banished from the Undying Lands and sent to Middle-Earth; in which case Sauron would have been disposed of quickly. Just kidding . No, seriously, I'll have to think about that one for a little bit.


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## childoferu (Aug 4, 2009)

Illuin said:


> *Manwë and his close-knit incompetent clique **would have debated and remained inert as usual*, prompting Tulkas and Ulmo to take matters into their own hands, and like Fëanor & Co_._; they too would have been banished from the Undying Lands and sent to Middle-Earth; in which case Sauron would have been disposed of quickly. Just kidding . No, seriously, I'll have to think about that one for a little bit.


 
Haha, funny Illuin

I'm guessing, that of course, Phar's army would encountered Olwe's Teleri first, try to have a few negotiations, negotiations fail miserably due to the pride and power of the Numenoreans, battle ensues, many Teleri slain, Alaquonde is captured, Telerins fall back to Tirion or somewhere, hopefully Teleri and Noldor and Vanyar ally themselves to combat new threat, however(and slightly because I'm Numenorean biased anyway) Elves are defeated and sooooo many are slain, then the Valar finally step in and not really sure what they would...hmm....


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## Illuin (Aug 4, 2009)

> _Originally posted by *childoferu*_
> _due to the pride and power of the Numenoreans, battle ensues, many Teleri slain, Alaquonde is captured, Telerins fall back to Tirion or somewhere, hopefully Teleri and Noldor and Vanyar ally themselves to combat new threat, however(and slightly because I'm Numenorean biased anyway) Elves are defeated and sooooo many are slain_


 
I don't know CoE. Granted, the Númenórean navy was very impressive considering they scared Sauron stiff - and he had to implement plan B. But those gullible West-folk would have been a feast for the buzzards after the Eldar got finished with them. The Elves were a bunch of haughty snoots, but could tear it up when they were ticked off. Everyone forgets that it was the Eldar of Aman that pummeled Morgoth's entire Front_ (including the Air Force)_ in the War of Wrath. So I think the largest single-day amphibious invasion in the history of Arda would have gone very badly for the King's Men from Starwards no matter how it went down.


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## childoferu (Aug 4, 2009)

Illuin said:


> I don't know CoE. Granted, the Númenórean navy was very impressive considering they scared Sauron stiff - and he had to implement plan B. But those gullible West-folk would have been a feast for the buzzards after the Eldar got finished with them. The Elves were a bunch of haughty snoots, but could tear it up when they were ticked off. Everyone forgets that it was the Eldar of Aman that pummeled Morgoth's entire Front_ (including the Air Force)_ in the War of Wrath. So I think the largest single-day amphibious invasion in the history of Arda would have gone very badly for the King's Men from Starwards no matter how it went down.


 
Well Illuin, I _did_ say I'm Numenorean-_biased_, but besides that, think about it: you think the elves of Eldamar trained in the weapons of war from day-to-day? No. They were praising and singing and building ships and writing and running through the gardens and etc. Numenoreans, on the other hand, were much a military culture I believe and were great in the crafting the weapons and ships. And you say it was the Eldar of Aman that pummeled Morgoth's entire front, and I say that couldn't have been if the Valar were not with them, especially Eonwe. You know Illuin, now that I think about it, I'm starting to think of the title of a new thread....


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## Illuin (Aug 4, 2009)

> _Originally posted by *childoferu*_
> _think about it: you think the elves of Eldamar trained in the weapons of war from day-to-day? No. They were praising and singing and building ships and writing and running through the gardens and etc. Numenoreans, on the other hand, were much a military culture I believe and were great in the crafting the weapons and ships. And you say it was the Eldar of Aman that pummeled Morgoth's entire front, and I say that couldn't have been if the Valar were not with them, especially Eonwe._


 
Eönwë was a Maia. And I'm in the corner of those who do not think the Valar actually participated in combat. The army is never referred to as Valar, but rather as the _host of the Valar_. There is some evidence given in the _'Istari' _chapter of _Unfinished Tales_:



> *Unfinished Tales - The Istari*
> 
> *Manwë will not descend from the Mountain until the Dagor Dagorath, and the coming of the End, when Morgoth returns. To the overthrow of Morgoth he sent his herald Eonwe. *


 
Also, it is _Eönwë_ (Maiar); the _Herald of Manwë_, who is appointed guardian of the Silmarils, not one of the Valar. This is a contested subject but now you know where I stand.


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## Withywindle (Aug 4, 2009)

I would assume the Valar and Maiar would not and could not intervene, which is presumably why they passed the buck to Illuvatar in the first place. Obviously one big tsunami from Ulmo would have wiped out the Armada at a stroke, but presumably Ulmo could not have raised his hand against the Second born children of Eru, even to save the First Born.

A straight fight between the Eldar of Valinor and the Numenoreans would have been a Rumble in the Jungle and no mistake. On the one hand Ar-Pharazon's army had already seen off Sauron's forces by sheer intimidation, and we're talking about forces Sauron had been assembling for over a thousand years, drawing on almost all of western ME and being driven and controlled by the Ring: the Numenorean force sent to Valinor was even bigger than that one so we're talking about a truly overwhelming army.

On the other hand the Noldor and the Vanyar were a powerful lot (I wouldn't expect much from the Teleri). When the Noldor arrived in ME to make war on Morgoth they also came straight from "running through gardens" (lol) poetry reading and various other nancy-boy activities and within 5 minutes were tearing through Balrogs! And we might assume that Fingolfin, Finrod, Fingon and Turgon were back in Valinor by that time. It would have been a hell of a battle all right, and I wouldn't like to call the result.


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## Starbrow (Aug 5, 2009)

I think that one reason that Sauron was so intimidated by the Numenoreans was the technologic superiority of their forces. The Numemoreans were far more advanced than Sauron and his allies and didn't have the weapons to defeat them.

But when Ar-Pharazon went to the Undying Lands, he was facing a people who were more advanced than the Numenoreans. Once they left the ships, I think they would have been defeated by the elves.


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## childoferu (Aug 5, 2009)

Starbrow said:


> I think that one reason that Sauron was so intimidated by the Numenoreans was the technologic superiority of their forces. The Numemoreans were far more advanced than Sauron and his allies and didn't have the weapons to defeat them.
> 
> But when Ar-Pharazon went to the Undying Lands, he was facing a people who were more advanced than the Numenoreans. Once they left the ships, I think they would have been defeated by the elves.


 
Why can't we assume that the Numenoreans took the technology that the elves gave them and made it better for themselves...maybe, and if not the technology, then certainly the numbers


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## Illuin (Aug 5, 2009)

> _Originally posted by childoferu_
> _Why can't we assume that the Numenoreans took the technology that the elves gave them and made it better for themselves_


 

They didn't have the experience or intellect. Anything Men did, the Elves could do better _if they chose_. I'm not a big fan of the snooty Elves either, but they had Men beat in every possible area and every possible way. Many of the Elves in Aman had been alive for nearly 15,000 years. I'm willing to bet they could have perfected a bow, sword, or ship in that amount of time. Think about it, if you were 12,000 years old, and some 120 year old dude came to you and said: _'Hey, I got this great idea for a bow.'_ It would be like a 2 year old discovering that the fireplace was hot; and being proud of himself because he's discovered something new, 'counsels' his father not to go near it.


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## childoferu (Aug 8, 2009)

Hmm, should we move on to another What-If......?


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## Firawyn (Aug 8, 2009)

Okay, so this might be a little unusual...

But what if the only Tolkien works ever published were the ones he published himself. 

So, if only Hobbit and LotR were the only books by Tolkien any of us had ever read...do you think that the Tolkien fan base would be as large? Why or why not?


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## Withywindle (Aug 8, 2009)

There´s no question that the LotR is the masterwork. It is the greatest narrative creation of all time whose power to move the emotions, inspire the imagination, and heighten the senses is without rival in all of fiction. 

It is the LotR which makes us fall in love with ME; as you know, together with all the members of this forum, this is an obsessive kind of love, and that obsession craves anything and everything else that we are offered which makes us feel closer to ME, but the obsession always starts with the LotR. 

Certainly, The Silmarillion and HoME etc. feed our love and help sustain our obsession: they give us an endless stream of trivia to ponder about in this forum for one thing. In that sense, Tolkien fandom might have been more of a private experience had we only the LotR to read; there would have been less to share with other fans. 

But I don't think there would have been fewer fans if these other texts had never been published. Nor do I think the chief influences of ME on our own world would have been different: the effect on the Hippie movement and in turn its effect on all of posterity such as an increased love of nature, especially forests; a changed concept of mythical beings such as elves and dwarfs etc.


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## childoferu (Aug 8, 2009)

Firawyn said:


> Okay, so this might be a little unusual...
> 
> But what if the only Tolkien works ever published were the ones he published himself.
> 
> So, if only Hobbit and LotR were the only books by Tolkien any of us had ever read...do you think that the Tolkien fan base would be as large? Why or why not?


 
I don't know about the size of the fanbase, but we definitely would have been a fustrated lot, every fantasy or sci-fi epic has to have *HISTORY*, you name it, star wars, star trek, comics, everything has to have its history, and the bulk of the history behind LoTR comes with HoME and the Sil


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## Astrance (Dec 14, 2009)

Great thread, why was it abandonned ?

So _what if Celebrimbor had seen through Sauron's game and had therefore never made the Rings ?_ (Yes, I do have a thing for the House of Fëanor)

My guess is that Sauron might have tried smithing a Ring of his own anyway. Then try to take over Middle-Earth in pretty much the same way he did at the end of the Second Age...
Of course there would have been no Ring for Isildur to cut off his hand, and the question is : would he have been defeated then ? And how would he have gone back to full power ? Maybe that would've been slower, but his power wouldn't have been destructed either, so... What do you think ?


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## childoferu (Dec 25, 2009)

Not abandoned, many have just become inactive for some reason or another, but we all come back from time to time, as for your _what if, _it kind of depends on celebrimbor's actions after discovering Sauron's plan, but yea, Sauron would have ultimately been defeated in any occurence


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## Erestor Arcamen (Apr 10, 2010)

*What if?*

Ok so here's my what if. I know Aman was removed and only the straight road was left for the elves in their ships (correct me if I'm wrong), but what do you think would have happened if Sauron _had _gotten his ring back. I mean I know it says all that about a second darkness and enslavement of all the free peoples of Middle Earth and blah blah blah but what would his next step be? Would he have built up his orc and easterling armies into the millions? He wouldn't be able to get to Aman so would he just sit there, in Mordor, with the rest of Middle Earth at his disposal, ruling everybody with nothing left to do or would he try to find a way to Aman and try to battle them, if he would even have a chance at all, and possibly free Morgoth from the outer void? Or had he forgotten about his former master all together and had his own motives for ruling Middle Earth? And I don't believe it was simply power, I mean of course he wanted the power and authority over all of ME's people, but what would be next?


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## YayGollum (Apr 10, 2010)

I merged this with the old What If thingy. Anyways, first of all, it would probably take Sauron quite a while to have all of Middle Earth under his control. Check out how long Mel was taking, and he was much cooler (because that matters?) and far more powerful. Of course, Sauron would mostly be up against boring humans, and check out how easily he claimed Numenor. Heh.  Argh. I liked the other smilie thingies. oh well. Either way, once he finally does take the place over, I figure that, since he's immortal and plenty patient, he could handle living there for a while. Mayhaps he'd conquer the Dark Lands before checking Valinor out. And, while the path to paradise was made just for elves, I muchly doubt that Ainur wouldn't be able to get there, too. All Sauron would have to do is turn everyone in Middle Earth into vampires, then fly the army over. Alternatively, keep a few elves on hand to direct giant boats filled with Orcs. What, would the path suddenly whisk the crow's nest away and leave the rest of the ship to find the eastern shore of Middle Earth?


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## Bucky (Apr 13, 2010)

YayGollum said:


> I merged this with the old What If thingy. Anyways, first of all, it would probably take Sauron quite a while to have all of Middle Earth under his control. Check out how long Mel was taking, and he was much cooler (because that matters?) and far more powerful. Of course, Sauron would mostly be up against boring humans, and check out how easily he claimed Numenor. Heh.  Argh. I liked the other smilie thingies. oh well. Either way, once he finally does take the place over, I figure that, since he's immortal and plenty patient, he could handle living there for a while. Mayhaps he'd conquer the Dark Lands before checking Valinor out. And, while the path to paradise was made just for elves, I muchly doubt that Ainur wouldn't be able to get there, too. All Sauron would have to do is turn everyone in Middle Earth into vampires, then fly the army over. Alternatively, keep a few elves on hand to direct giant boats filled with Orcs. What, would the path suddenly whisk the crow's nest away and leave the rest of the ship to find the eastern shore of Middle Earth?



*I must say that I loathe speculation in Middle-earth as much or more as Tolkien (said) he loathed allegory, but here goes with the facts:

Where in the Second or Third Age is a Vampire ever even mentioned? They, as opposed to werewolves, seem to belong solely to the First Age.

Secondly, and most importantly, Tolkien says in one of his letters or in Morgoth's Ring, that in the Third Age, Sauron claimed to be Morgoth returned.
The LAST thing Sauron would've wanted was the REAL Morgoth returning and himself being demoted to 
Vice-Dark Lord.  *


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## YayGollum (Apr 13, 2010)

Why loathe speculation? It's fun. Sure, that Tolkien dude wouldn't agree with plenty of the crazy ideas that people come up with, but it's just an exercise. Not nearly as bad as taking hold of some author's characters and plots and breathing your own unholy life into them. Anyways, I don't remember vampires being mentioned. Mayhaps they were, and mayhaps they weren't. I wouldn't be surprised either way, though, to see that some still existed. Why not? They weren't written of as some gigantic as well as terrifying threat, so they didn't get anything written about their extermination. And towards what you figure to be more important, sure, I'd agree that Sauron doesn't seem to be the likeliest candidate for bringing Mel back, but that was merely one of the reasons suggested for why he'd be in Valinor.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Apr 22, 2010)

Thuringwethil was a vampire woman who when killed, Luthien took her hide as her disguise when Luthien entered Angband.


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## Bucky (Apr 22, 2010)

YayGollum said:


> Why loathe speculation? It's fun. Sure, that Tolkien dude wouldn't agree with plenty of the crazy ideas that people come up with, but it's just an exercise. Not nearly as bad as taking hold of some author's characters and plots and breathing your own unholy life into them. Anyways, I don't remember vampires being mentioned. Mayhaps they were, and mayhaps they weren't. I wouldn't be surprised either way, though, to see that some still existed. Why not? They weren't written of as some gigantic as well as terrifying threat, so they didn't get anything written about their extermination. And towards what you figure to be more important, sure, I'd agree that Sauron doesn't seem to be the likeliest candidate for bringing Mel back, but that was merely one of the reasons suggested for why he'd be in Valinor.



Well, whatever.
I've just seen - not so much here but on that _other more popular site_ folks go off on the wildest therories despite what Tolkien clearly writes and then they say "Well this is what it means to me." regardless of contrary evidence presented right out of Tolkien's words. Very fustrating to see Tolkien's own words twisted to fit somebody's own agenda.
But, there seems to be a an awful lot of that in society everywhere these days where folk's think there is no absolute truth but their own....... 


As for vampires past the First Age, here's why not IN MY OPINION (LOL):

Tolkien lists what servants Sauron has in his talk with Frodo on his bedside in Rivendell after recovering from his Morgul wound:

"All his servants are not chattels and wraiths. There are Orcs and Trolls, there are Wargs & Werewolves; and there are and have been and still are many Men, warriors and kings, that walk alive under the sun, and yet are under his sway...."

Werewolves are definitely mentioned, while vampires are not.

That gives me the impression that the only vampires mentioned, are in The Silmarillion - if you are (gasp!) to read the text as I just did - both Sauron 'in the form of a vampire' & Thuringwethil who 'was wont to fly in vampire's form to Angband' would certainly seem to indicate Maiar of a greater or lesser degree that could shift shape as opposed to a breed of 'evil beast' called vampires like werewolves. 

So, since the only Maiar that are specifically mentioned as remaining in the Third Age are Durin's Bane, a Balrog which all seemed to stay in Balrog form and Sauron, who after the Downfall of Numenor lost the ability to appear fair (and wrought for himself the shape of the black, one-eyed Dark Lord in which he remained ever after), it seems likely Sauron also had no ability to shift-shape any longer. Heck, it took him 1050 years just to begin to take the shape of the Dark Lord again, so I don't think hwe was shifting into a vampire or were-wolf at will any longer. 

At least that's my kooky theory - based on the texts of course. :


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## Astrance (Apr 22, 2010)

Funny, I always understood this « vampire Sauron » thing as « looking like an oversized, scary and many-toothed bat ». Like this, but bigger. I didn't understand it in a Dracula-orientated way.


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## Bucky (Apr 23, 2010)

Stockholm said:


> Funny, I always understood this « vampire Sauron » thing as « looking like an oversized, scary and many-toothed bat ». Like this, but bigger. I didn't understand it in a Dracula-orientated way.



*Yes, I agree with that completely - from the text of course:

'And Sauron immediately took the form of a vampire , great as a dark cloud across the moon, and he fled, dripping blood from his throat upon the trees (where did the blood come from ? Huan?) and came to 
Taur-Nu-Fuin, and dwelt there, filling it with terror."

Luthien:

'...and the bat-fell of Thuringwethel. She was the messenger of Sauron, and was wont to fly in vampire's form to Angband (hence a shape-shifter also); and her great fingered wings were barbed at each joint's end with an iron claw....' 
*


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## YayGollum (Apr 23, 2010)

Is there some other as well as more popular website thingy out there? I don't know. I don't deal in internets much. oh well. Wild theories are crazy fun, though. Sure, they're better if they agree with the material more often than not, but they're fun, either way. Yay for a different way of looking at things? No? Anyways, since your quote doesn't exclude the existence of vampires, I type that they still could have existed. Supporting evidence for why he wouldn't have included them in his list ---> Were not vampires mostly as well as merely employed as messengers, and, while Sauron was shapeshifted, a getaway car? Of course, he could have included them, merely to include lots of scary things in his list, but if vampires in Middle Earth are mostly known for just being flying noncombatants, they would have diminished his list, yes? Also, where did anyone type about what they figured vampires to look like? I figured them to be giant man-bats, mostly, like ---> This  But either way works. *grumbles about sickening vampires and their most horrifying feature ---> Their inexplicable popularity


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## Bucky (Apr 26, 2010)

YayGollum said:


> Is there some other as well as more popular website thingy out there? I don't know. I don't deal in internets much. oh well. Wild theories are crazy fun, though. Sure, they're better if they agree with the material more often than not, but they're fun, either way. Yay for a different way of looking at things? No? Anyways, since your quote doesn't exclude the existence of vampires, I type that they still could have existed. Supporting evidence for why he wouldn't have included them in his list ---> Were not vampires mostly as well as merely employed as messengers, and, while Sauron was shapeshifted, a getaway car? Of course, he could have included them, merely to include lots of scary things in his list, but if vampires in Middle Earth are mostly known for just being flying noncombatants, they would have diminished his list, yes? Also, where did anyone type about what they figured vampires to look like? I figured them to be giant man-bats, mostly, like ---> This  But either way works. *grumbles about sickening vampires and their most horrifying feature ---> Their inexplicable popularity



*Well, reread my quotes....

They seem to indicate, as I said, Maiar of a greater (Sauron) or lesser (Thurwhatshername) nature that can shift shape, a 'gift' or 'power' certainly not given to any child of Illuvator, but only to Ainur.
And as I said, the only Ainur left in M-e after the First Age appeared to have been Sauron & Durin's Bane. *


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## YayGollum (Apr 26, 2010)

Hm? Where did I type that I didn't think that they were Ainur type things? I merely mentioned what I figured they looked like, and, since Ainur take the form of whatever is most like their spirit, they all must have had very batty personalities. I also figure werewolves to be a lesser type of Ainu, just wolfier than most. Oo! What If...more people answered the current What If question, or someone came up with a new one?


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## Bucky (Apr 27, 2010)

As I said, most Ainu type folk seem to have been dealt with in the War of Wrath and were not around in the Second and Third Ages.....

Sauron and Durin's Bane were the main exceptions.

Then, we have the apparent issue that evil seems to deprive Ainu from changing shape over the course of time.

And as for were-wolves being Ainu, well, that's a tough one.....

Tougher than dragons, and we all know how tough that one is, right?

Wanna go there? 

If so, you start and I'll reply - too tired now & having to talk before the mayor and aldermen tonight, I need to prepare before my son gets home.


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## YayGollum (Apr 28, 2010)

Most of the Ainur type folk seem to have been dealt with in the War of Wrath and were not around in the Second and Third Ages? That seems a bit crazier than some of the other stuff you've been spouting. Most Ainur type things were invisible or just hanging out in paradise, from what I've read. But then, it would make more sense if you were merely typing of Mel's minions, which, sure, I'd agree with. They were thinking about taking Sauron back to paradise. I wouldn't be surprised if plenty of Mel's Ainurish buddies switched sides, then, and during the war, it would make sense for the popularly seen as good guys to kill the more dangerous minions first. But still. I would type that Sauron and that one balrog that Tolkien puts into a story were merely notable survivors. Plenty of things could be sleeping or hiding or somesuch. 

Towards the idea that being evil deprives Ainur of shapeshifting options, I thought that what actually did that was the loss of the energy to employ such powers. Mel couldn't do it anymore, because he poured so much of his energy into corrupting stuff, and Sauron couldn't, since one of his bodies got destroyed. If it was just acting in ways in which one person or another happens to currently believe to be evil, is there some way of measuring just how long they'd be able to have as many options as possible? And, either way, dang. How was Sauron being evil by getting drowned with Numenor? Seemed as if that one was beyond his control. If it was an evil act, shouldn't he have noticed that he couldn't shapeshift as well, directly after running over that one squirrel?

Towards werewolves, I figure that they are Ainu because they are a kind of sentient shapeshifter. A low-rung brand of Maiar type thing. Sure, they could have been another crazy amalgamation type of thing, but I would have expected some form of explanation, if so. The explanation of Ainur, though, covers the existence of plenty of crazy monsters. 

What is tough about the subject of dragons? With my supreme confidence in all of my crazy ideas, I am sure that I know everything about dragons. If you wish to debate on the subject of dragons or wish to get into more of this other stuff that we've been de-railing the What If thread with, there are most probably other threads for it.


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## Bucky (Apr 28, 2010)

YayGollum said:


> Most of the Ainur type folk seem to have been dealt with in the War of Wrath and were not around in the Second and Third Ages? That seems a bit crazier than some of the other stuff you've been spouting. Most Ainur type things were invisible or just hanging out in paradise, from what I've read. But then, it would make more sense if you were merely typing of Mel's minions, which, sure, I'd agree with. They were thinking about taking Sauron back to paradise. I wouldn't be surprised if plenty of Mel's Ainurish buddies switched sides, then, and during the war, it would make sense for the popularly seen as good guys to kill the more dangerous minions first. But still. I would type that Sauron and that one balrog that Tolkien puts into a story were merely notable survivors. Plenty of things could be sleeping or hiding or somesuch.
> 
> Towards the idea that being evil deprives Ainur of shapeshifting options, I thought that what actually did that was the loss of the energy to employ such powers. Mel couldn't do it anymore, because he poured so much of his energy into corrupting stuff, and Sauron couldn't, since one of his bodies got destroyed. If it was just acting in ways in which one person or another happens to currently believe to be evil, is there some way of measuring just how long they'd be able to have as many options as possible? And, either way, dang. How was Sauron being evil by getting drowned with Numenor? Seemed as if that one was beyond his control. If it was an evil act, shouldn't he have noticed that he couldn't shapeshift as well, directly after running over that one squirrel?
> 
> ...



*Well, I'll agree with you on one point:

There sure were and STILL are TROLLS.

Get it?


'Nuff said.*


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## childoferu (Dec 10, 2010)

speaking of dragons, what were their origins...i forgot


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## Peeping-Tom (Jan 19, 2011)

> speaking of dragons, what were their origins...


 
I've always pictured them as derived from Balrogs in some way...
(Morgoth's Evil Genetics Manipulation & Reproductions Lab. Inc.)

Mostly because of the fire-breathing/shooting stuff...and maybe because in the drawn pics of them, they sure looks like each other.

And then there's the isue about flight....do Balrogs fly?
Well, even Tolkien himself was in doubt...so he made the first Balrog-decendents (Dragons) to be non-fliers, and the second generation to be fliers...
But they all did have wings.....

But this is just my own unjustified fantacy running wild.....have nothing to back it up!


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## Jacob6080 (Sep 27, 2011)

Towards werewolves, I figure that they are Ainu because they are a kind of sentient shapeshifter. A low-rung brand of Maiar type thing. Sure, they could have been another crazy amalgamation type of thing, but I would have expected some form of explanation, if so. The explanation of Ainur, though, covers the existence of plenty of crazy monsters.




----------------------------------
Travesti


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## ethan6080 (Dec 17, 2011)

the moment he was reaching for a knob a terrible knocking could be heard.
"i'm coming! i'm coming!" - Bilbo shouted, red with anger for he didn't like to be urged (like most of us, right?). he pulled the knob and wanted to rebuke an impatient guest(s), but words choked in his throat. all he could stutter out came to: "master Gandalf?..."

------------------------------------------
Best hotels at bhubaneswar


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## BlackNúmenórean (Jun 6, 2012)

I'm confused from reading the last few pages? Is there a question you are discussing at the moment, :*confused: sorry.


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## Mouth_Of_Sauron (Dec 7, 2013)

scary thought: what if ungoliant had eaten the silmarils?


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## Firawyn (Dec 7, 2013)

Mouth_Of_Sauron said:


> scary thought: what if ungoliant had eaten the silmarils?



I suppose that would be some Middle Earth archaeologist's dream come true when they found the pile of spider poop they were in.


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## host of eldar (Feb 9, 2015)

I have a fancy that as it burned hand of Morgoth, it would burn Ungoliant to ashes in her belly.


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## Beorn84 (Oct 13, 2015)

What if frodo had fell in with the ring and gollum had survived


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## Exma (Nov 10, 2015)

Gollum looked into the fiery chasm just as the last bit of Frodo sank below the molten slag. He soon found his voice, or rather it found him as he croaked,_ Really? _He stared harder as if doing so would alter what had just happened. He sucked in, filling his lungs with the hot ash filled air and screeched, _REALLY? _Disgusted, he turned away. Make no mistake, for it was not at the loss of Frodo that filled Gollum up with blind rage. It was at the loss of his Precious. The fetid creature made his way towards the opening of Sammath Naur, stepping right on top of Samwise as he went. _Shut up, stupid fat Hobbitses, _was Gollum's response. Once outside, Gollum looked about at the desolation unfolding around him. _Perfect, _he hissed_. This is just perfect. _He started down the steep, secret stairs that had brought them up Mount Doom, muttering to himself as he went along and occassionally cursing. _All of it for nothing, for nothing. Catching the conies, keeping watch while they snoozed, taking that putrid Shelob on all those dates, kissing that Bagginses ass!_ Soon he was blubbering loudly as tears and boogers rolled down his chin and dripped onto his chest. _Precioussss, oh my preciousss. _His sight blinded by tears, he missed a step and went rolling down the steps until falling atop a small plateau into something like mud...yet it wasn't mud. It was a great pile of Fell Beast dung! In disbelief, Gollum raised his head sputtering, _Ewwww....Wings of Wraith's_ _poopses! _He slipped some as he raised himself up and repeated his earlier mantra, _REALLY!?_ Covered in Sauron's pet's manure and minus forever of his Precious, Gollum sat down on the steps and waited for whatever was to be...


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## HarryTheWhite (Oct 9, 2016)

What if Bilbo had Killed Gollum?


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## DarkLordMelkor (Oct 10, 2016)

As Mithrandir said that Smeagol is gonna play a major role at this, the latter.. true, thus if Bilbo would have killed him.. the Nazgul would never have learned that the One Ring is in the Shire therefore there would be no reason to rush and everything would have been quite different. We can only speculate but I still fail to see that Frodo would have manage to reach Mount Doom, therefore my only option of somebody throwing the Ring is Elessar.


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## Gigantor (Apr 5, 2017)

Sauron said:


> Once the current 'what-if' storyline is finished (if ever, that is), I have another suggestion the rest of y'all can follow:
> 
> What if Isildur, his sons, and the rest of his bodyguard were not ambushed and overwhelmed at the Gladden Fields, but instead make it back safely to Annuminas with the One Ring still in his possession?



Basically, what happened to Smeagol aka Gollum and what was starting to happen to Bilbo and then to Frodo would have happened to Isildur, you know, the whole going bats, not ageing a day, and eventually becoming like Gollum. Happy thought indeed (notice the sarcasm


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## Gigantor (Apr 5, 2017)

HarryTheWhite said:


> What if Bilbo had Killed Gollum?



Then Gollum would not have been around to "save" Frodo from claiming the Ring as his own at Mount Doom and going nuts.


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## The Elvish Minstrel (Aug 23, 2017)

What if Aragorn had never met Arwen, and instead married Eowyn?


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## Firawyn (Aug 23, 2017)

The Elvish Minstrel said:


> What if Aragorn had never met Arwen, and instead married Eowyn?



I don't think he would have married Eowyn, even if he'd never met Arwen. The connection between Eowyn and Aragorn was one in which they had a lot in common, but what they did have in common was similar insecurities and senses of duty and honor. While this could easily have made for a great friendship, it would have made them ill suited as romantic partners. A good relationship involves one person's weaknesses being the other person's strengths, and vice versa. Couples should complement each other to make up for the failings in each other, and be able to uplift each other when one or the other is struggling. 

For example: Arwen, like Aragorn, was mixed blood, and so understood Aragorn's struggles with his own origins, though where he felt he needed to hide his bloodline, she was proud of her own. Eowyn, on the other hand, felt much the same as Aragorn about her own bloodline and the duty that bound her too. She hid in the ranks of her uncle as a soldier, wanting to achieve honor in her own right, or die trying and be spared the duty of living on and ruling her people. Like Aragorn, she hid in the shadows and risked her life until such a time there was no longer shadows to hide in, at which point she met Faramir, someone who while understanding of her desire to achieve on her own merits, did embrace his own heritage in much the same way Arwen did hers. 

So, to answer the "what if", IF it had happened that way, the Kingdom of Gondor and Middle Earth would have suffered under a King who constantly second guessed himself, because the Queen was not a person who could really be uplifting to him. Just my opinion...


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## The Elvish Minstrel (Aug 23, 2017)

Firawyn said:


> I don't think he would have married Eowyn, even if he'd never met Arwen. The connection between Eowyn and Aragorn was one in which they had a lot in common, but what they did have in common was similar insecurities and senses of duty and honor. While this could easily have made for a great friendship, it would have made them ill suited as romantic partners. A good relationship involves one person's weaknesses being the other person's strengths, and vice versa. Couples should complement each other to make up for the failings in each other, and be able to uplift each other when one or the other is struggling.
> 
> For example: Arwen, like Aragorn, was mixed blood, and so understood Aragorn's struggles with his own origins, though where he felt he needed to hide his bloodline, she was proud of her own. Eowyn, on the other hand, felt much the same as Aragorn about her own bloodline and the duty that bound her too. She hid in the ranks of her uncle as a soldier, wanting to achieve honor in her own right, or die trying and be spared the duty of living on and ruling her people. Like Aragorn, she hid in the shadows and risked her life until such a time there was no longer shadows to hide in, at which point she met Faramir, someone who while understanding of her desire to achieve on her own merits, did embrace his own heritage in much the same way Arwen did hers.
> 
> So, to answer the "what if", IF it had happened that way, the Kingdom of Gondor and Middle Earth would have suffered under a King who constantly second guessed himself, because the Queen was not a person who could really be uplifting to him. Just my opinion...


Wow, this is very insightful. I think you may be right. In addition, Aragorn's marriage to Arwen also restored Elvish blood to the Gondor line, so there's also that to think about...


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## Firawyn (Aug 23, 2017)

The Elvish Minstrel said:


> Wow, this is very insightful. I think you may be right. In addition, Aragorn's marriage to Arwen also restored Elvish blood to the Gondor line, so there's also that to think about...



This is true. You'll realize pretty quickly as you get to know me that seldom do I not think out my answers in depth.  

I'm a bit of a swot like that.


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## The Elvish Minstrel (Aug 23, 2017)

Firawyn said:


> This is true. You'll realize pretty quickly as you get to know me that seldom do I not think out my answers in depth.
> 
> I'm a bit of a swot like that.


Nah, deeply thought out answers make for deeper conversations.


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## hxrxy (Aug 27, 2017)

What if Boromir didn't die? Would Sean Bean have to quit due to not dying in a film?



The Elvish Minstrel said:


> What if Aragorn had never met Arwen, and instead married Eowyn?


I don't know, but Elrond would be happier


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## The Elvish Minstrel (Sep 2, 2017)

hxrxy said:


> I don't know, but Elrond would be happier


LOL, ain't that the truth?! I didn't even think of that. xD



hxrxy said:


> What if Boromir didn't die? Would Sean Bean have to quit due to not dying in a film?


LOL


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## Rohirrim (Nov 2, 2017)

What if Suraman had been victorious at Helm's Deep ?



hxrxy said:


> What if Boromir didn't die? Would Sean Bean have to quit due to not dying in a film?



I imagine that Boromir would have had a serious disagreement with Aragorn over the destiny of the ring. That opens up lots of possibilities - Aragorn being killed and Boromir taking the ring to Minas Tirith, Frodo escapes with the ring, Boromir goes with Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli to rescue Merry and Pippin, does his bit at Helm's Deep but disputes Aragorn's claim to the throne later in the story ...


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## Sam Pat (May 18, 2018)

spirit said:


> This is what I think would happen:
> Gandalf would make Bilbo take the ring to Mordor and Gandalf would go with him. He would also ask the dwarves to go with Bilbo and if the dwarves didn't agree then Gandalf would use his excellent persuasion skills to make them go with Bilbo. Bilbo will be the ring-bearer, not Frodo.
> The forces of darkness will not have been very strong at that time, so the journey to Mount Doom will not be a perilous. Their paths will be much different to the paths that where taken by the fellowship.
> They will not need to go through the Mines of Moria therefore Gandalf will not fall into abyss (-and the Balrog will still be alive.)
> The ring will be easily taken to Mordor, but Bilbo will not be very willing to through the ring into the volcano. Bilbo will not listen to Gandalf, so Gandalf will loose his temper more powerful than ever, that Bilbo will jump into the volcano with the ring because he was still not willing to separate with the ring. (His last expression will be a "happy" one just as Gollum's when he fell into Mount Doom.)


I like the idea of it, but i think that maybe one of the dwarf's (maybe Thorin) could play the whole Gollum part and would die in Mount Doom. Of couse, this would mean a new king under the mountain, but that's a different story, maybe for a different What if...


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## BalrogRingDestroyer (Sep 1, 2018)

Rohirrim said:


> What if Suraman had been victorious at Helm's Deep ?
> 
> 
> 
> I imagine that Boromir would have had a serious disagreement with Aragorn over the destiny of the ring. That opens up lots of possibilities - Aragorn being killed and Boromir taking the ring to Minas Tirith, Frodo escapes with the ring, Boromir goes with Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli to rescue Merry and Pippin, does his bit at Helm's Deep but disputes Aragorn's claim to the throne later in the story ...




I think the Ring was taken by Frodo over the River. So Boromir and Aragorn needed be troubled by its presence. However, one does wonder, what if Frodo had decided to go to Minas Tirith? That would be an interesting what if.



Withywindle said:


> I would assume the Valar and Maiar would not and could not intervene, which is presumably why they passed the buck to Illuvatar in the first place. Obviously one big tsunami from Ulmo would have wiped out the Armada at a stroke, but presumably Ulmo could not have raised his hand against the Second born children of Eru, even to save the First Born.
> 
> A straight fight between the Eldar of Valinor and the Numenoreans would have been a Rumble in the Jungle and no mistake. On the one hand Ar-Pharazon's army had already seen off Sauron's forces by sheer intimidation, and we're talking about forces Sauron had been assembling for over a thousand years, drawing on almost all of western ME and being driven and controlled by the Ring: the Numenorean force sent to Valinor was even bigger than that one so we're talking about a truly overwhelming army.
> 
> On the other hand the Noldor and the Vanyar were a powerful lot (I wouldn't expect much from the Teleri). When the Noldor arrived in ME to make war on Morgoth they also came straight from "running through gardens" (lol) poetry reading and various other nancy-boy activities and within 5 minutes were tearing through Balrogs! And we might assume that Fingolfin, Finrod, Fingon and Turgon were back in Valinor by that time. It would have been a hell of a battle all right, and I wouldn't like to call the result.


I thought Turgon died when Gondolin fell, or am I thinking of someone else?


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## Kinofnerdanel (Sep 2, 2018)

BalrogRingDestroyer said:


> I thought Turgon died when Gondolin fell, or am I thinking of someone else?



I assume Withywindle estimated that by that time Turgon could have left the Halls of Mandos and reincarnated in Aman .

Yet the remark on the unexplained astonishing fighting skills of the eldar is truly intriguing


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