# Gandalf and Saruman



## DRavisher (Apr 28, 2002)

(from the silmarillion "Valaquenta".) 

Quote:
"Wisest of the maia was Olorin (gandalf). He too dwelt in Lorien, but his ways often took him to the house of Neinna and from her he learnt patience and pity".


I piced this up from another tread, i've not read the silmarillion yet, i'm at about page 150. If the quote above is true, why was Gandalf grey and Saruman White?


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## Zale (Apr 28, 2002)

If I remember correctly, somewhere in LotR Galadriel says something like this:

"If my designs had not gone amiss then he (Gandalf) would have been head of the White Council".

Meaning that she had intended Gandalf to be head of the Council, but for some reason Saruman was instead. No idea why.


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## Gamil Zirak (Apr 28, 2002)

Saruman was white becuase he was the first to come to middle earth. Gandalf did not do so willingly. He had to be proded to go. Also, I think it was Elrond that wanted Gandalf to be the head of the White Council.


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## Ithrynluin (May 23, 2002)

No,it was Galadriel who wanted Gandalf to be head of the council.
Saruman was the greatest in Valinorean stature, as he was mighty in the skills of hand. Gandalf was the wisest and truly the gratest, as Varda foresaw...


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## Gil-Galad (May 25, 2002)

I think Gamil Zirak is right.As I can remember Gandalf was forced to follow Saruman,Radagast and the other two Maiar in ME.I'm not sure who from the Valar sent him in ME.


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## BluestEye (May 26, 2002)

*About the Istari*

When the Istari (the Wizards) were sent to Middle-earth there was no White Council. At first they arrived and were scattered through the lands, each went to his own buziness.
Curunir (Saruman) was cald in White even before the White Council was formed. I believe it was called "The White Council" only because Saruman was the Head of the Order.
Each Wizard was sent to Middle-earth by a specific Valar. Olorin (Gandalf) was sent by Manwe. And it was Manwe again who chose Curunir (Saruman) to go first to Middle-earth.
When the White Council was formed, Galadriel wanted Gandalf to be the head of the Council (notice: Head of the Council, _not_ Head of the Order (the Istari), but Gandalf refused to be attached to such baerocracy because he wanted to travel the earth and learn things without needed to be buzy with such appointments.

BluestEye


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## Walter (May 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by DRavisher _
> ...why was Gandalf grey and Saruman White?



This and a few more questions about the wizards (Istari) are answered in an essay of J.R.R.Tolkien, called "The Istari" which has been published in the last section of the _Unfinished Tales_:



> *The first to come* was one of noble mien and bearing, with raven hair, and a fair voice, and he *was clad in white*; great skill he had in works of hand, and he was regarded by well-nigh all, even by the Eldar, as the head of the Order. Others there were also: two clad in sea-blue, and one in earthen brown; *and the last* came one who seemed the least, less tall than the others, and in looks more aged, *grey-haired and grey-clad*, and leaning on a staff....
> 
> ....Now the White Messenger in later days became known Elves as Curunír, the Man of Craft, in the tongue of Northern Men Saruman; but that was after he returned from his many journeys and came into the realm of Gondor and there abode....
> 
> ....But the last-comer was named among the Elves Mithrandir, the Grey Pilgrim, for he dwelt in no place, and gathered to himself neither wealth nor followers,.... Mostly he journeyed unwearingly on foot, leaning on a staff; and so he was called among Men of the North Gandalf, “the Elf of the Wand”.



So, the one in the white business-suit was Saruman, and the one in the grey rags was Gandalf, hence the names "Saruman the White" and "Gandalf the Grey"...


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