# Melkor Motives - Madness or Impatient Curiosity?



## Grond (Sep 10, 2005)

Melkor, more than any other Vala, felt that the Song of the Valar should be revealed sooner rather than later. When the pace of the game wasn't moving to his satisfaction, Melkor took the matter into his own hands and moved forward. This thread could go a number of different ways, (eg. was Melkor's interference preordained by Eru since the entire theme was His) but I would like to limit this discussion to the behavior and actions themselves and not address the "ultimate root" issues which would involve examining Eru's motives.

So, let's get started. Was Melkor simply driven by a divine madness (his path appears so far from the plan which Eru began) or was his path dictated by an innocent and impatient curiosity? Or was it completely different motivations. Thoughts please.

Cheers,

grond


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## e.Blackstar (Sep 11, 2005)

He was EVIL, just EVIL!!! Muahahahahahahaha!

*squeak* Ahem.  

No, I think it was just curiosity, and it eventually drove him so far that he HAD to know everything...and then he fell into corrpution.


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## Thorondor_ (Sep 11, 2005)

I will go with "other" motivations (emphasis added):


> But as the theme progressed, it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Ilúvatar, _for he sought therein to increase the power and glory of the part assigned to himself_.


Imo, it was egoism/desire for power that drove him, from the begining.


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## Grond (Sep 11, 2005)

Thorondor_ said:


> I will go with "other" motivations (emphasis added):
> 
> Imo, it was egoism/desire for power that drove him, from the begining.


This part is understood. Melkor wanted to enhance his own role in the theme; however, eons passed and Melkor grew impatient. My question is, was it his "desire for dominion" or simply his restlessness (curiosity) which prompted his further actions which sought to shape the theme after the fact (or so he thought)?


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## Thorondor_ (Sep 11, 2005)

> My question is, was it his "desire for dominion" or simply his restlessness (curiosity) which prompted his further actions which sought to shape the theme after the fact (or so he thought)?


Imo, it was definetly his desire for dominion ("for he coveted Arda and all that was in it, desiring the kingship of Manwe and dominion over the realms of his peers").
About the curiosity part, I don't think he had a bit of it ("from splendour he fell through arrogance to contempt for all things save himself"); your other proposal, madness, sounds much more like him ("he began with the desire of Light, but when he could not possess it for himself alone, he descended through fire and wrath into a great burning, down into Darkness" - all quotes from the Sil, if needed mentioned ).


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## Nenya Evenstar (Sep 11, 2005)

I agree with Thorondor.


> But as the theme progressed, it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Ilúvatar, for he sought therein to increase the power and glory of the part assigned to himself.


I would like to add that Melkor was in the beginning desiring the same power that Iluvater had. He wished to be more like Iluvatar in _power_ and _glory_ but fell by trying to become like Iluvatar in his own way instead of in Iluvatar's way.


> "he began with the desire of Light, but when he could not possess it for himself alone, he descended through fire and wrath into a great burning, down into Darkness"





> for he coveted Arda and all that was in it, desiring the kingship of Manwe and dominion over the realms of his peers.


Even once he entered Arda, you can still see Melkor's desire to be like Iluvatar. Only this changed from being "like Iluvatar" to a burning desire to "be Iluvatar."

Sorry for stealing all your quotes, Thorondor.


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## Hammersmith (Sep 12, 2005)

> it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of *his own imagining that were not in accord* with the theme of Ilúvatar


 
Stealing Thorondor's quotes once again, I'd like to point out the obvious that it was not impatience that drove him, but lust for control. It's been argued that he didn't want to wait; he didn't care. He was an immortal being, what's a few Millennia to him? He could have waited, but it was the end result of the waiting that he was unhappy with. He had different goals, and so I'll go with the madness motive.


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## Gothmog (Sep 12, 2005)

Ok, some thoughts.
Melkor was driven by a divine madness caused by an innocent and impatient curiosity.

Soon after the Ainur were created by Eru, Melkor ventured out into the Void. At first he was simply curious as to what was out there but as he wandered more and found only Void he became impatient and wanted more, he wanted difference. His chance came with the Music of the Ainur. In the Ainulinale it is said that Melkor, alone in the Void, conceived thoughts unlike those of the other Ainur and he wove these thoughts into his part of the Music.

So the curiosity that led him to explore the Void allowed him to think differently to the other Ainur and his weaving of these differences into the Music caused the ‘Divine Madness’ that drove him in Arda. Melkor had only one chance to repent and step back from the path that he had to follow in Arda, this was when Eru showed the Music to the Ainur.

When Eru gave the theme to the Ainur for them to adorn, none knew that there was any purpose to this other than the entertainment of Eru. When they were shown the reason and the result of the Music all could see what difference Melkor had made. It was at this point that Melkor could have repented. Had he remained outside of Arda much of the darkness may have been avoided. However, Melkor did go down into Arda and then was bound in chains of his own singing. He could not while in Arda escape from the path he had himself created. Even had he wanted to change, he could not. The Music had to be played out to the last note.

Perhaps this was the cause of his urge to Nihilistic Destruction. The only way he could escape the path he created was to destroy that path and the only way to do this was to destroy Arda.


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## Thorondor_ (Sep 13, 2005)

> At first he was simply curious as to what was out there


I don't think you are right about the curiosity part:


> He had gone often alone into the void places _seeking the Imperishable Flame_; for _desire grew hot within him to bring into Being things of his own_, and it seemed to him that Ilúvatar took no thought for the Void, and he was impatient of its emptiness.





> The only way he could escape the path he created was to destroy that path and the only way to do this was to destroy Arda.


I don't think it was the only way; the Valar are opened to Eru; should Melkor ask Him to change his path, I think that Eru would comply, since He was the only one who held the power to do so. And, after he was casted out into the void, Melkor had alot of time and opportunities to "deal" with this directly with Eru.


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## Gothmog (Sep 13, 2005)

> I don't think you are right about the curiosity part:
> 
> 
> > He had gone often alone into the void places seeking the Imperishable Flame; for desire grew hot within him to bring into Being things of his own, and it seemed to him that Ilúvatar took no thought for the Void, and he was impatient of its emptiness.


It was not until he had been alone that he concieved thoughts different to the rest of the Ainur. First he would go from curiosity then later to find the Imperishable Flame.


> I don't think it was the only way; the Valar are opened to Eru; should Melkor ask Him to change his path, I think that Eru would comply, since He was the only one who held the power to do so. And, after he was casted out into the void, Melkor had alot of time and opportunities to "deal" with this directly with Eru.


I very much doubt that Eru would do anything to change Melkor's path. Once Melkor went into Arda he started to spread his power and being through the substance of Arda. This bound him more closely to the Music and meant that for Eru to change his path, Eru himself would have to unmake Arda so as to break the link between Arda and Melkor.


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## Thorondor_ (Sep 13, 2005)

> I very much doubt that Eru would do anything to change Melkor's path.


While I only implied that Eru would change Melkor's path only if Melkor asked, I think that my point is rather, well, of no practical importance, since, as Tolkien says in Myths transformed, Melkor was beyond repentance ("it would now remain fixed in the desire to do so: there was no 'repentance' or possibility of it: Melkor had abandoned for ever all 'spiritual' ambitions, and existed almost solely as a desire to possess and dominate matter, and Arda in particular").


> First he would go from curiosity then later to find the Imperishable Flame.


Hm, I am not sure, is there any clue to this? In the Sil, only the seeking of the Imperishable Flame is mentioned as a motive. [And, in the Void ("the state of Not-being") what could exist?]


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 13, 2005)

I think it was Melkor's awareness of his own greatness that made him overly arrogant and ambitious. Indeed, he was in the beginning second only to Iluvatar in sheer power, yet his power was very much finite, unlike Eru's. This is illustrated in Melkor's ultimate goal: to destroy Arda in a chaotic, nihilistic rage. He could ravage upon it, imbue it with a Melkor element throughout, but he could not make its existence cease.


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## Gothmog (Sep 13, 2005)

Thorondor_ said:


> While I only implied that Eru would change Melkor's path only if Melkor asked, I think that my point is rather, well, of no practical importance, since, as Tolkien says in Myths transformed, Melkor was beyond repentance ("it would now remain fixed in the desire to do so: there was no 'repentance' or possibility of it: Melkor had abandoned for ever all 'spiritual' ambitions, and existed almost solely as a desire to possess and dominate matter, and Arda in particular").



Yes Tolkien does say that Melkor was beyond repentance. I simply gave my view as to the reason this was so and just when he reached the ‘Point of No Return’. Other Ainur (such as those that became Balrogs) were caught up in Melkor’s Music and, possibly, had a way out if they chose to repent. Melkor was in a different position, He sung his own chains and became bound by them when he entered Arda.


> Hm, I am not sure, is there any clue to this? In the Sil, only the seeking of the Imperishable Flame is mentioned as a motive. *[And, in the Void ("the state of Not-being") what could exist?]*


The very question that piqued Melkors curiosity!!!!!
On finding it Void he then became impatient and so moved on to seeking the Flame Imperishable so as to create more. The other option being that Melkor did not need curiosity as he was created with full knowledge and intent to cause problems for Arda before any of the Ainur could be shown the Theme of Eru.


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## Ingwë (Sep 14, 2005)

I have stragne idea. Indeed very strange, probably because I have slept only 6 hours in the last day...

The Ainur were created by Eru Iluvatar so I think that he knew quite well the song and what will the Ainur do in Arda. He created them so he is related to them. They aren't Children of Eru but are his creatures. In the Silmarilion we find thoughts about the end of the world and its remaking. And here is my thought... What if Arda is a test? Eru created the Ainur, the Children of Eru to test that creatures? 

Examlpe: he created the Ainur (Valar) to create a visible world - Arda but also there is one Dark lord (later one more Dark lord) - Melkor. he's brother of Manwë in Eru's thoughts but they're different. I mean that Manwe in not evil but Melkor is. He wants to control the other creatures. What if Eru have created him to be Evil and the other Valar to try withstanding his power? Melko was the most powerul Vala and he had many ‘fans’. What if all they were created to be his servants? Just a test. And test to the Valar whether they will save the life of the Children or no? What will they do if Melkor is still free and the Children come? Will the Valar save their life? What will the Valar do it One of the Elves – Feanor becomes rebel and lead the other back to danger in Middle earth where the DaRk lord is still the master? After the thread The death of Miriel and Fëanor

I began thinking that Eru created Miriel and Feanor and everithing as a test. And later he’ll create other world, better than Ea. 

My answer that Melkor was a test.


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## Gothmog (Sep 14, 2005)

Hmm. Perhapse we should revive Anc's most famous thread.  Melkor - Evil By will or Evil by Nature?


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## Ingwë (Sep 14, 2005)

And probably...
Eä - Ilúvatar's act of creation, a singular event? 
The death of Miriel and Fëanor maybe, because we talk about the role of Miriel and how it was created to bring Fëanor into the earth 
The Role of the Author (Anc's thread  )


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## Arvedui (Sep 17, 2005)

As Melkor was the most powerful of all the Ainur, he probably had a greater ability to understand what Eru "was up to," but I have a feeling that this enhanced understanding also was one of the basis of his "downfall." 
It could be as simple as being impatient. He didn't need to be told everything as detailed as the other Ainur did. And perhaps as he became a little bit bored, he began to compose themes out of his own design?

Maybe Melkor had the best intentions, but wasn't understood by the others?


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