# Feanor & co: are they to be blamed?



## Thorondor_ (May 26, 2005)

On many ocasions, members of this forum chose Turin as their favorite character, even with all his issues. There are many similarities between him and Feanor & co: 
- they fought against Morgoth;
- they were under the curse of a vala (former vala in the case of Turin; in the case of the feanorians, they were also under a hopeless oath)
- they were well intended (deep down at least?) but their pride and their choices (and the curse) brought them their bitter end
- rather quick to anger and good/brave warriors

Furthermore, the feanorian family was also very creative (mind the silmarils and the power rings). Also, Feanor's sons undertook their oath out of sheer love for their father, the mightiest elf, unlike any other that will ever be borned.

So, considering all conditions for their actions, are they to be blamed for their bad deeds?


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## YayGollum (May 26, 2005)

I chose the last thing because Turin was so much more evil and so much less redeemable. Ick. Why are so many a fan of this boring character? oh well. I didn't choose anything else because I wasn't sure what you meant by the question. Are they to be blamed for what? Did I miss the answer to that? Whoops. Anyways, you should remember that the superly cool Feanor's reason for coming up with such a cool oath was muchly due to his evil father, too. My overall view on the coolness of Oathtaking types ---> Good for them! That is the sort of tragically heroic stubbornity and honesty that I enjoy reading about! Those dudes took that oath and they followed through with it. Think of how much more epic that The Lord Of The Rings book could have been with personalities like that!


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## Thorondor_ (May 26, 2005)

Question updated, thanks YayGollum.


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## YayGollum (May 26, 2005)

Ah. Well, my gut reaction was to write ---> Of course they are to be blamed for their actions! Who else would be blamed if they were the ones who did it?  That makes no sense. Luckily, I remembered all kinds of creepy and evil bits of Tolkien type stories that mention the creepy and evil and unfair gift to humans. Something about not being bound by fate. After reading something about those time Ainur who showed up and locked the vessels of the sun and moon into a set timeframe, I came up with an Ainur character who controlled fate and was a bit peeved when the weak little humans showed up, and he found that he couldn't control them at all. But then, it could just be that the big and terrifying Eru type ignores humans and lets them do their own thing and calls that his gift. The poor elves, on the other paw, are bound by fate. Can they be blamed for their actions? Can Mel or Sauron or anyone not a human? It seems to me to be that this Eru guy is pure evil. He says ---> "This will be a fun story to watch. The only ones who can mess my entertainment up are just a bunch of weak humans!"


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## Beren (May 26, 2005)

Ooooooooooh! One of my personal favorites! Of COURSE Fëanor and his sons are to be blamed. First of all Fëanor took a blasphemous oath in a moment of fury, hardly a commendable deed. He even refused to seek the Valar's aid in the war against Morgoth AND tried to convince others to follow him AND slayed the Elves at Alqualonde AND burned the ships at Losgar. His sons weren't exactly angels, either (with some rare exceptions). Even when they had a chance to redeem themselves by returning the Silmarils to Eonwe, they refused.
I will stop here for fear of babbling


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## YayGollum (May 26, 2005)

I have never been afraid of such a thing. Why should you be afraid of it? oh well. Let me see here. The question was not ---> Were they bad guys? They weren't, of course. The question was ---> Should they be blamed for what they did? I could go either way. It looks like you agree that they should be blamed for it. Then you started to babble about the particular actions that they just happened to take. 

Noone minds if I debate? Okay. 

How was his oath blasphemous? The fact that he is vowing to take his inventions back from anyone who takes them from those that they belong to is blasphemous? I disagree. 

Refusing to seek the aid of those that you see as enemies is not a bad thing. 

What's wrong with trying to convince others to help you out with something? He certainly didn't force anyone to do anything. That would be evil. 

As to the killing of pathetic and obviously unintelligent elves ---> They had it coming. When an army of suddenly armed and achingly passionate elves walks up to you, their leader shows a Herculean amount of restraint, and he politely asks you if he can have a few of your boats, you should always hand them over and count your blessings that he didn't do what he wanted to do in the first place, which is ---> kill you unhesitatingly and leave. Sure, they were just as passionate as he was about their creations, but that is what makes the story tragic.  

Also, I can't understand why everyone thinks that burning the ships was such a bad thing. He was being nice to the elves they were leaving behind. He wasn't stupid. He knew that they never wanted to come anyways. He gave them a great chance to head back and live in paradise. Don't you think that he could have used a much bigger army? Of course he could have! Talk about great generosity to those guys! It is not his fault that they were stupid enough to follow him.


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## Starbrow (May 26, 2005)

Of course Feanor and his family need to be held accountable for their choices and actions. They committed great evils when they fought against the other elves. Only Maedhros was remorseful for his actions. The others, especially Celegorm and Curufin, acted without regard for others.


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## Hammersmith (May 27, 2005)

Nóm said:


> I think they can be blamed for many things. The kinslaying at Alqualonde, Curufin and Celegorm's actions in Nargothrond, and attempted murder of Luthien. The attacks on Doriath and the Havens
> 
> ...


 
Bravo! Just what I was thinking! Turin isn't one of my favourites; I see him as a bit of a clod. But alongside this pack of rogues he positively shines!


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## Beren (May 27, 2005)

YayGollum said:


> I have never been afraid of such a thing. Why should you be afraid of it?


Ok, there have been such misunderstandings of my user status before. Let me clarify it for you and then I'll put in my sig. for future reference:
I don't mean phobia as in "afraid", I meant as in "hostile towards" (compare to homophobia)



YayGollum said:


> Were they bad guys? They weren't, of course.


I think that's a whole new thread right there! 

Now to the debate  (hope Thorondor_ doesn't mind)



YayGollum said:


> How was his oath blasphemous? The fact that he is vowing to take his inventions back from anyone who takes them from those that they belong to is blasphemous? I disagree.


I agree with you when he swears to keep the work of his hands, it's ok. But when he swears that he'll even withhold them from the GODS (the very gods by whom he swears, btw) then, yes I think it's blasphemous.



YayGollum said:


> What's wrong with trying to convince others to help you out with something? He certainly didn't force anyone to do anything. That would be evil.


Excuse me? He was known for his eloquence, he could've used THAT to convince the Valar to go back with him to ME (or probably not seeing as how he had just landed on the wrong side of Yavanna!); the point is, he had no right to coax people into taking the Oath.


YayGollum said:


> As to the killing of pathetic and obviously unintelligent elves ---> They had it coming.


And would that be because of their art, knowledge wisdom or beauty? 



YayGollum said:


> Also, I can't understand why everyone thinks that burning the ships was such a bad thing. He was being nice to the elves they were leaving behind.


Because it forced the other guys to cross the Helcaraxe where many of them died.
And no, I don't think Fëanor was being nice, he was just spiteful against Fingon (or was it Fingolfin  , it has been some time since I read the Sil.)



Hammersmith said:


> But alongside this pack of rogues he positively shines!


Finally! Someone who speaks my language! (not that I hate Turin, but...)


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## Confusticated (May 27, 2005)

> As to the killing of pathetic and obviously unintelligent elves ---> They had it coming. When an army of suddenly armed and achingly passionate elves walks up to you, their leader shows a Herculean amount of restraint, and he politely asks you if he can have a few of your boats, you should always hand them over and count your blessings that he didn't do what he wanted to do in the first place, which is ---> kill you unhesitatingly and leave.


So people should just give over whatever is asked of them if the person who asks for it might kill them if they don't? (Not that Elwe thought Feanor would take the ships, or kill his people!)

Well then I guess you think Feanor was equally unintelligent and had it coming for not listening to the Valar who were more powerul than he was?

"Had it coming" because they refused to hand over what they love to somebody who had no right to it!! just because he could have, if he chose to, beaten them in battle and taken it by force?! Makes no sense to me.

I wonder if you also think everybody who fought back against any kind of oppression that was obviously stronger than they are also had it coming!?

What kind of world would it have been if everybody was not "unintelligent" and didn NOT "have it coming", why it would come anyways!


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## YayGollum (May 27, 2005)

Oo! Much exclamation points! Anyways, I never got the hang of the quote things, so I shall try to keep things obvious and break this up a bit.

You are hostile towards rambling, Beren person? Scary, but I got it. *hides, since he loves to ramble*

As to the blasphemous thing, I still don't understand. He vowed to take his property back from anyone. You say that it's alright, except for one particular race of people? Why, if they aren't even gods to Feanor? He certainly doesn't worship them. Probably doesn't even respect them anymore. Shouldn't be counted as blasphemy if he couldn't care less about their level of divine power.  

Explain to me your point about why the guy had no right to request the aid of his relatives with something that should have concerned them in the first place? Also, no, I see no reason for why the guy should have tried to persuade the Ainur types to help him out. They were almost his enemies.

I wrote why the Teleri types had in coming in my first post. My reason had nothing to do with their art, wisdom, knowledge, or beauty. It was ---> When an army of suddenly armed and achingly passionate elves walks up to you, their leader shows a Herculean amount of restraint, and he politely asks you if he can have a few of your boats, you should always hand them over and count your blessings that he didn't do what he wanted to do in the first place, which is ---> kill you unhesitatingly and leave. 

Feanor, I shall write again, did not force anyone to do anything. What was so important that they had to kill themselves by following him? Those guys wanted to go back to paradise, and Feanor knew it. Sounds pretty forgiving to me. But then, Feanor's thoughts are never provided. I can come up with all kinds of nice things, and you can come up with all kinds of inconvenience-oriented things. It's fun.  

To the crazy Turin elfbane = better than the Feanorians in any way types ---> Why? That character was just a large ball of bad luck for everyone he ever ran into. Never did anything cool. Wasn't as interesting to read about. Wasn't as heroically and tragically honest and stubborn.  oh well.

Okay, crazy Confusticated lady. Calm down. This ---> 'might kill them' part is what I have decided to jump on.  Sure, I could see why the Teleri types might not immediately assume the worst, but how dense must they have been? Maybe they weren't all best buddies with Feanor, but even if they'd never even heard rumors of the guy, they could have been able to tell that he was full of righteous fury and could not be easily swayed or stopped. 

Also, remember the army of suddenly sword-wielding and achingly passionate elves backing him up? Did the Teleri types miss their grim, determined, and deliciously loyal to Feanor faces? Craziness. Okay, maybe they weren't stupid. They were just equally passionate about their own inventions. That is cool, but when you are so obviously outclassed, you should back off and plot your revenge. 

That would have made a cool twist, yes? For any other examples of those types of situations, too, I would think. And no, Feanor was not equally unintelligent. He knew the Valar types. Sure, they could have done a lot, but do they ever? No. The Teleri types really could have been perceptive enough to pick up a few signs of danger.


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## Beren (May 27, 2005)

YayGollum said:


> You are hostile towards rambling, Beren person? Scary, but I got it. *hides, since he loves to ramble*



Oh, you misunderstood me. I thought you were referring to my "Fëanorophobic" user status, which this disucssion has made clear enough I think 



YayGollum said:


> Probably doesn't even respect them anymore. Shouldn't be counted as blasphemy if he couldn't care less about their level of divine power.


You probably have a point, there! But still, the fact that HE didn't believe in their "divine power" doesn't make it any less existent.



YayGollum said:


> Explain to me your point about why the guy had no right to request the aid of his relatives with something that should have concerned them in the first place?


Because he was making a huge leap of faith by choosing to turn his back on the Valar, he was acting like the Nietzschean ubermensch by undergoing a 180 degrees change in morality. IMO, no one has the right to force their morality on other people; and don't you go telling me he didn't force anyone...he had a convincing voice and he knew it.


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## YayGollum (May 27, 2005)

*laughs maniacally, then wipes his face and assumes another expression of innocence*  I would not deny the facts that the superly cool Feanor person was achingly persuasive and very capable of wielding that talent. That is one of the large reasons for why he is one of my favorites. Yay for the charismatic as well as achingly controversial, interesting, and unique types!  oh well. 

I understand why you feel that his persuasion was evil, but still ---> His intentions were nothing close to evil. He was full of righteous fury. Mel deserved to be paid back, yes? If no elves were killed by way of Feanor and his followers, he effeciently dealt with poor Mel, and none of the other things that he did that you people seem to think are so evil happened, all of you would love the Feanor character. With no difference in his noble intentions while persuading people. I would probably hate him, though. He would be way too popular without all of the satisfying controversial stuffs.  

And what is all of that writing about huge leaps of faith and changes in morality? I happen to be thinking that Feanor was always the same. Always achingly as well as admirably, heroically, and tragically honest and stubborn. Mel did something inconvenience-oriented, so Feanor took it upon himself to save the day. No changes. 

Also, as to the bit of blasphemous debate that still exists ---> The fact that crazy beings happen to be powerful does not imply that disrespect towards them = blasphemy. I would think that Eru is the only being to get the honor of having blasphemous remarks applied to him. The Valar types were just a bunch of glorified janitors.


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## Beren (May 28, 2005)

YayGollum said:


> If no elves were killed by way of Feanor and his followers, he effeciently dealt with poor Mel, and none of the other things that he did that you people seem to think are so evil happened, all of you would love the Feanor character.


 Probably true, but for that happen Fëanor would've had to be a completely different person 


YayGollum said:


> And what is all of that writing about huge leaps of faith and changes in morality? I happen to be thinking that Feanor was always the same.


Yes, Fëanor's personality did stay unchanged, but his morality changed. He was content at first to live in Valinor alongside the Valar until Melkor pulled off his "inconvenience-oriented" stunt. Then, Fëanor suddenly decides to discredit the Valar and even disobey them. That's the change in morality I'm talking about (from my POV, it'd be like someone turning their back on a certain religious belief) Now I'm perfectly okay with that, after all it's his own life, but the fact that he coaxed others into making the same choice is what I have to take issue with.



YayGollum said:


> The Valar types were just a bunch of glorified janitors.


I would remind you that these "glorified janitors" played a major role in the creation of Arda.


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## YayGollum (May 28, 2005)

To your first point, I would write ---> No. That was my point. His attitude never changed, only the results did. You people would have loved him because he was victorious and everything would have turned out alright. I would have hated him because he would suddenly be popular. The intentions were always the same, any you write that you would have liked him if only his plans worked. Craziness.  

I understand your point of view on the morality thing, but it still seems pretty crazy. Mostly because I am such a large fan of the coolness of the Feanor character, but oh well.  His morality never changed. When he decided to pursue Mel and get other to help him out with that, he wasn't doing anything achingly immoral. He was full of righteous fury, as I have written before. The guy who he was the largest fan of (which is a huge deal for one so full of himself) was killed by Mel. It was his duty to passionately grab all of the help that he could to avenge the guy, at least in his achingly honest opinion. Asking the Valar to help would have been immoral, in his opinion. They are contemptuous, relatives of the murderer and thief, who don't seem to care and have no problem with leaving the guy alone.

Also, yes, I understand why you think that way about the glorified janitors, but still ---> Eru is the only that I think should be thought of as a god. The rest are just his servants. Mindless little drones and sock puppets. They thought a bunch of stuff up, thanks to Eru, Eru made everything, they stepped onto it and did a bit of reshaping and fine tuning. No large deal. They especially should not have been respected because of the last sentence of my earlier point.


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