# How didn't Gimli know about the Fall of Moria?



## typhoonikan (Apr 13, 2009)

I have some discontinuities in my mind about Moria. Perhaps someone can set me clear.

I understand that during the time of Beleriand, Moria was an amazing place for dwarves. I'm confused on the fall of Moria.

Gimli tries to persuade Gandalf to leading the party into Moria, and goes on to say how they would be welcomed and could regroup. However, Gandalf seems to know that Moria is nothing but an Orc breeding ground now.

How does Gimli not know of the fall of his own people, while Gandalf does? Was it only a rumor that the peoples of Moria were besieged or invaded by orcs- not overtaken by them?

Also, how are the orcs of Moria different from those encountered when the party of The Hobbit passes through the Misty Mountains?

I'm sure I'm probably twisting the books and movie into one schema, but please forgive me. I'm trying to set this right.


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## YayGollum (Apr 15, 2009)

Yes, you are getting the books and movies confused. It's been a while since I've read the books, and I only saw the movies when they first came out, but Moria fell a long time before even that The Hobbit book. When Thorin was younger, he got his Oakenshield name while trying to take it back from some Orcs, who moved in way before even he was born. People mostly left it alone until Balin came. They were setting things up and not having too much trouble for a bit, but they were eventually killed by Orcs. Gimli knew that Balin had gone there, but nobody had heard from him in a while, so they weren't sure what had happened. I'm fairly certain that it was all the evil torturer Gandalf's idea to go to Moria. Gimli was plenty interested but didn't have much to do with the idea.


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## Illuin (Apr 15, 2009)

> Originally posted by *YayGollum*
> _Yes, you are getting the books and movies confused. It's been a while since I've read the books, and I only saw the movies when they first came out, but Moria fell a long time before even that The Hobbit book. When Thorin was younger, he got his Oakenshield name while trying to take it back from some Orcs, who moved in way before even he was born. People mostly left it alone until Balin came. They were setting things up and not having too much trouble for a bit, but they were eventually killed by Orcs. Gimli knew that Balin had gone there, but nobody had heard from him in a while, so they weren't sure what had happened. I'm fairly certain that it was all the evil torturer Gandalf's idea to go to Moria. Gimli was plenty interested but didn't have much to do with the idea._


 
Ha! I was actually in the middle of composing a really long post with quotes and stuff until I read yours. You can't sum things up better than that. Short, sweet, and right on the money!


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## Barliman Butterbur (Apr 16, 2009)

YayGollum said:


> ...you are getting the books and movies confused.



What he said! 

(Yay, my 2700th post -- shoulda been my 3500th, but they subtracted 800 from my count back in The Great Purge...)

Barley


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## Firawyn (Apr 16, 2009)

Illuin said:


> Ha! I was actually in the middle of composing a really long post with quotes and stuff until I read yours. You can't sum things up better than that. Short, sweet, and right on the money!



Haha, that's Yay for you. 

And yes, I concur. I do seem to recall that it was Gandalf's idea to go through Moria. 



> Also, how are the orcs of Moria different from those encountered when the party of The Hobbit passes through the Misty Mountains?



Aside from the facts that it was goblins in the Misty Mountains?


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## ltnjmy (Apr 17, 2009)

Firawyn said:


> Aside from the facts that it was goblins in the Misty Mountains?


 
In Tolkien's mythology - the goblins and Orcs are the same creature. I read somewhere in his letters that he wanted to call them Orcs in The Hobbit but the publisher squelched that for "Goblins".


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## HLGStrider (Apr 17, 2009)

I'm separated from my copies right now which are on their way to Japan without me and the only copies in this house are in my brother's room and he is asleep because he was out late doing police classes . . . and because he is lazy. 

So that said, Aragorn was very much against Moria as a course of action (the whole, I told you so thing after Gandalf died, again don't have my books), but I thought Gandalf's "No, let's try every other option before we go to Moria" line from the movie was also in the books. Maybe I'm wrong. I'll double check on it when my brother gets up. 

Trouble with staying with relatives, you can never be sure they'll have a good copy of Lord of the Ring's handy.


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## Mariad (Apr 17, 2009)

ltnjmy said:


> In Tolkien's mythology - the goblins and Orcs are the same creature. I read somewhere in his letters that he wanted to call them Orcs in The Hobbit but the publisher squelched that for "Goblins".



yup, that's true, but it's also specified at the beginning of The Hobbit by Tolkien himself that for simplicities sake that he would call the orcs 'goblins', as goblins are generally better heard of than orcs are, or at least were at the time of publication.


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## Ingwë (Jun 13, 2009)

Going through Moria is Gandalf's idea:

From "The Lord of the Rings", chapter "A journey in the dark":

_'There is a way that we may attempt,' said Gandalf. 'I thought from the beginning, when we first considered this journey, that we should try it. But it is not a pleasant way, and I haven't spoken of it to the Company before. Aragorn was against it, until the pass over the mountains had at least been tried.'
'If it is a worse road than the Redhorn Gate, it must be evil indeed,' said Merry. 'But you had better tell us about it, and les us know the worst at once.'
'The road that I speak of leads to the Mines of Moria,' said Gandalf. Only Gimli lifted up his head; a smouldering fire was in his eyes. On all the others a dread fell at the mention of that name. Even to the hobbits it was a legend of vague fear._


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## Eledhwen (Jun 14, 2009)

I can't blame typhoonikan for remembering the film line rather than the book. The fear of Moria was completely laid onto Gandalf in the film, which also clearly blamed the troubles of Caradhras on Saruman, and not on the malice of the mountain itself. It was Aragorn who said he had been in Moria before and did not wish to repeat the experience. He did not say what he found there on his first visit, or when it was.


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## Elthir (Jun 15, 2009)

ltnjmy said:


> In Tolkien's mythology - the goblins and Orcs are the same creature. I read somewhere in his letters that he wanted to call them Orcs in The Hobbit but the publisher squelched that for "Goblins".


 
Goblins and Orcs are the same, yes, but do you have a letter reference with respect to this information concerning Tolkien's publishers? I don't remember anyone noting that Allen & Unwin intervened, and John Rateliff's _History of The Hobbit_ does not seem to mention that draft texts had Orc rather than 'Goblin', or that at some point before publication JRRT wanted instances of goblin changed to _Orc_. 

In the 1960 rewrite it appears 'goblin' might have been retained -- although Tolkien did not really get far enough into revising the tale (or far enough into the Misty Mountains, so to speak), this later version has a few instances where 'goblin' is found, at least. In any case, of course he did not alter all instances of goblin for the edition of 1966, but added the note that this word was used in translation for 'Orc'.

_Goblin_ is found in _The Lord of the Rings_ obviously, so there would be no real need to alter it in later editions of _The Hobbit_, and Tolkien's note explains the usage with respect to both books in any event.


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## Firawyn (Jun 15, 2009)

Eledhwen said:


> It was Aragorn who said he had been in Moria before and did not wish to repeat the experience. He did not say what he found there on his first visit, or when it was.



That sounds like a RP idea if I've ever heard one...


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## Bucky (Jun 15, 2009)

Firawyn said:


> That sounds like a RP idea if I've ever heard one...





Actually, Aragorn & Gandalf have both been through Moria on a previous journey.


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## baragund (Jun 19, 2009)

I believe typhoonikan is also asking to clarify how Moria fell. As we all know, it was the Balrog, not the orcs, that drove Durin's folk from Moria. The orcs moved in later and settled in essentially as squatters. The Dwarves drove the orcs out once in the Battle of Azanulbizar but they couldn't take on the Balrog and thus, could not reclaim Moria.

btw, take a look at Appendix A.III in LOTR that gives a brief history of Durin, the Dwarves of Moria and the account of that battle. It sounds truly horrific, as if Tolkien was trying to describe Middle-earth's version of the Battle of Verdun or Stalingrad or some other absolute meat-grinder battle through history. Pretty intense stuff...


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