# Who is the oldest Elf listed?



## Tony (Feb 22, 2002)

This is probably an easy one for most. No fair looking it up


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## Beleg Strongbow (Feb 22, 2002)

*Re: Who is the oldest listed?*

Cirdan fo sure. He awoke at cunivein (or somethin like that). He led the teleri that didn't pass over 2 aman. He stayed in M.E and has seen every age there is. Then Glorfindel and Galadriel who both were born in aman. A good while after they made the great journey likemany hundreds of years Elrond born a long time after in the 1st age. A long time after galdriel and glorfindel. Like many hundreds of years. Then legolas. Sorry i'm not sure the exact dates as i haven't memerised them and you wont let me look them up. But i'm sure that is the order. When the end of sauron has happened that would have been hundreds and hundreds of years after elrond was born. And the gaps here are massive like between elrond and galadriel like an age or 2. Legolas was born in the 3rd age wasn't he?? Sorry i can't giuve you the exact but i can't look it up.


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## Lantarion (Feb 23, 2002)

*Curses!*

I read your post _after_ I had voted! I just up and forgot that Círdan was one of the first Elves around.. I just somehow remembered that Galadriel was the oldest, because she was around in Beleriand; and I couldn't remember whether Círdan went to Aman or stayed. Blast, frickety, dang! 
Oh, and that's _Cuiviénen_.


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## Eonwe (Feb 23, 2002)

is it clear when each were born?

Like Cirdan, I don't remember a quote saying he awoke at Cuv. but I wouldn't doubt it. And Legolas, I don't remember a quote there either, he could have been born in the 1st age or earlier? And I don't remember a quote concerning Galadriel, but seeing as Finwe married a Vanyar which led to Fingolfin and Finarfin, I suppose that she was born in Valinor. Does it say that Glorfindel was born in Valinor?


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## imladris (Feb 23, 2002)

*Re: Who is the oldest listed?*

This one was way to easy


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## Tony (Feb 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Eonwe _
> *is it clear when each were born?
> 
> Like Cirdan, I don't remember a quote saying he awoke at Cuv. but I wouldn't doubt it. And Legolas, I don't remember a quote there either, he could have been born in the 1st age or earlier? And I don't remember a quote concerning Galadriel, but seeing as Finwe married a Vanyar which led to Fingolfin and Finarfin, I suppose that she was born in Valinor. Does it say that Glorfindel was born in Valinor? *



As far as Galadriel, there is an essay in Unfinished Tales that states she was born in Valinor.

Glorfindel: Gandalf states in "Many Meetings" that Glorfindel had dwelt in the Blessed Realm. I have also seen stated that since Glorfindel was golden haired, he was from the House of Finarfin (descended from). Given Finarfin's parentage, I think it follows Glorfindel was born in the Blessed Realm. Although, seems as I recall some discussion about the two Glorfindels and how he was returned after his death. In which case he could have been born in Beleriand after the Flight of the Noldor and his time spent in the Blessed Realm was after his death by Balrog.

Cirdan: I always assumed Cirdan was a peer (chronology wise) of Elwe, Ingwe, and Finwe, but I could not find him any earlier than when Ulmo returned with the Island ferry to get the Telri. Perhaps someone else can help here.

Legolas: I think all we know is his father is the Elf King from the Hobbit, Thranduil, who prior to Greenwood, dwelt in Lindon. Anyone have any more info on Legolas?


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## Prince Legolas (Feb 23, 2002)

Of all them I'd say Legolas is the youngest, so that rules him out.
Oldest, I'd opt for Cirdan


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## Beleg Strongbow (Feb 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Tony _
> *
> 
> As far as Galadriel, there is an essay in Unfinished Tales that states she was born in Valinor.
> ...




That is right , i find it hard to beleive that legolas was born in the 1st age. I have a feeling the start of the 3rd and or 2nd ages. Sorry i can't look it up   . And i couldn't look up how to spell cuiviénen. LOL Thanks Pontifex.


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## Thorin (Feb 26, 2002)

Cirdan was about 2000 years older then Galadriel. HoME X : Morgoth's Ring....gives a chronological list of the years of the trees and the First Age. 

Though I don't have my book here with me and I am probably a bit off from the actual dates it gives, it does not mention the birth of Cirdan or that he was one of the awoken but that he was the lord of the Teleri by the shores (around 1139 of the year of the trees) Gladriel was born around 1280+ of the year of the trees. Considering that each year of the trees was in Valian years (1 Valian year = 1 solar year) that would put Cirdan around 1500 years old by the time that Galadriel was born....If he was already lord by that time, my guess was that he was born long before that.

Keep in mind that even though Glorfindel was from the First Age, he was reincarnated so chronologically, his body wouldn't be as old as Galadriel or Cirdan.


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## Bucky (Feb 26, 2002)

That's if T.A. Glorfindel was the same as F.A. Glorfindel.

I believe that was still in debate in Tolkien's own view, no?

And, I don't think being sent back from the dead in a new or re-incarnated body would make Glorfindel T.A. (Third Age) 'younger', as it's the same spirit or invisible life force as the F.A. Glorfindel had.

Cirdan is definitely ther oldest.

Glorfindel, even if there are 2 different guys, had to be born in (or dwelt in) The Blessed Realm, as he is a High Elf who had seen the light of the 2 Trees. That's what gave him power against the Nazgul, remember?

Elrond was born 55 years before the end of the F.A.
BTW- don't look this up:
Who 'fostered' Elrond & Elros (easy one, I know)?

On Legolas, all that I know is his old man is the Elven King (Thradruil) & I believe he was Sindarian & went among the Dark Elves & became King (Like Galadriel & Celeborn).

I get the impression Legolas was born in the 3rd Age, as when Elrond gives his description of The Last Alliance, Legolas doesn't add "Yeah, that was something. You should've seen Elendil & Gil-Galad", yet we know Legolas's father was there.


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## Harad (Feb 26, 2002)

I'd like some evidence that Cirdan was older than my all-time fav, Glorfindel. He was a High Elf same as Galadriel and Cirdan.


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## StriderX (Feb 26, 2002)

I'd have to say Cirdan for sure.


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## Beleg Strongbow (Feb 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Harad _
> *I'd like some evidence that Cirdan was older than my all-time fav, Glorfindel. He was a High Elf same as Galadriel and Cirdan. *




ahhhmm buddy Cirdan isn't a high elf he never went to Aman and glorfindel was born there. Look earlier in the post 4 proof. Cirdan was a lord of his own province before the other elves got settled in in valinor. He was an unmanyar an elf not of aman. The high elves were noldor like feanor, finrod,fingolfin, galadriel, gil-galad.


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## Harad (Feb 26, 2002)

ahem, pal, is that supposed to be proof that he's older than Glorfindel?


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## Beleg Strongbow (Feb 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Harad _
> *ahem, pal, is that supposed to be proof that he's older than Glorfindel? *




no but i was just telling you that he isn't a high elf.


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## Harad (Feb 26, 2002)

I think that's right. I dont know what came over me when I typed that. 

Now..Who was older? Or is this "Who do we imagine was older?" given absolutely no evidence?


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## Beleg Strongbow (Feb 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Harad _
> *I think that's right. I dont know what came over me when I typed that.
> 
> Now..Who was older? Or is this "Who do we imagine was older?" given absolutely no evidence? *




Yes that is right. I can also remember someone posting here that Glorfindel was born in Aman. Can't rememeber where though???


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## Harad (Feb 27, 2002)

Cirdan was a Telerin Elf that never went to Valinor. So we know that he was older than any Elf born in Valinor. However I can not find any evidence that Glorfindel or Galadriel, both Noldur, were not also alive at the time of Cirdan, sailed to Valinor, then returned. In the absence of evidence that Galadriel or Glorfindel were born in Valinor, how can one conclude that Cirdan is older?


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## Thorin (Feb 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Harad _
> *Cirdan was a Telerin Elf that never went to Valinor. So we know that he was older than any Elf born in Valinor. However I can not find any evidence that Glorfindel or Galadriel, both Noldur, were not also alive at the time of Cirdan, sailed to Valinor, then returned. In the absence of evidence that Galadriel or Glorfindel were born in Valinor, how can one conclude that Cirdan is older? *



Cirdan was definitely older then Galadriel.. Morgoth's Ring has Cirdan frolicking around the shores of Beleriand as the lord of the Teleri there almost 1500+ years before the mention of Galadriel being born.

My guess is that Cirdan (if not one of the original elves that awoke) was born within 500-700 years after the elves awoke. his first mention was around 1139 of the year of the trees. The elves awoke in 1050 (that's less then 800 years to the mention of Cirdan, already established as a lord, never mind when he was born)

Glorfindel's exact age is unknown. But he seems more like a grunt of the First Age then any ancient elf with high status. More time is given to Fingolfin, Turgon, Finwe, Finarfin and Feanor. More time is even given to Galadriel then Glorfindel and Cirdan is much older than Galadriel. If Glorfindel was much older then Cirdan, you would think he would have had a bit more of a higher status in the realm of ME (like Finwe and Thingol) That might be a fickle argument, judging status by age, but I would still bank that Cirdan is older.


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## Ståle (Feb 27, 2002)

Just because Glorfindel is golden-haired it doesn't mean he is of the House of Finarfin. The Vanyar also had golden hair. Though few(if any) of the Vanyar went into Exile.


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## Bucky (Feb 27, 2002)

Proof Galadriel was born in Valinor:

The Silmarillion, 'Of Feanor':

"So the 3 kindreds were gathered in Valinor & Melkor was chained....."
"In that time was born in Eldamar, in the house of the King.....the eldest of the sons of Finwe....Curufinwe was his name, but by his mother he was called Feanor..."

So, if Galadriels father, Finarfin wasn't born yet, she obviously wasn't either. 
So, she was born in Valinor as she was 'eager to depart' upon hearing Feanor's words after the theft of the Silmarils & death of his father.

On Glorfindel (or Glorfindels), he (or they) could've been there on the journey to Valinor. 
There's no proff either way, though & I personally would tend to doubt it.
Why?
Because note is made of 'The most noble' of the Elves who heeded the Valar's call. 
If Tolkien goes out of his way to bring in & mention Glorfindel at later points for his power & nobility, why wouldn't he mention it earlier?

And, on Cirdan:
He was the Lord of the Teleri who did not depart ME & stayed at the Falas.
These Elves were 'original' or eldest (in terms of 'Awakening) as they were partakers of the great journey. 
Would they chose or be led by a child of someone else?
Note that all the other Kindreds were led by those who were eldest (Olwe, Elwe, Finwe, Ingwe).

I don't know if this is clearly stated, but I believe it was Cirdan's 'fate' to dwell in ME longest of all the Eldar. 
Remember 'He awaits the last ship' & 'Some say he still dwells there' (the Grey Havens) even after the Departure of Elrond & Galadriel.....


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## Thorin (Feb 27, 2002)

I don't fully understand the debate about Galadriel NOT being born in Valinor...

Finwe, Ingwe and Elwe went to Valinor to check it out by invitation of Orome....They came back and convinced the other elves to go...Elwe got lost and became Thingol. The rest of the elves went over....After the rebellion of Feanor, they were banished to ME....They did not come back at any time before the rebellion...All of Finwe's kin (kids and grandkids) were part of that and made the great trek back over to ME...

What' s the problem, Harad? I think Sil and UT make that chronology quite plain.


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## Harad (Feb 27, 2002)

As usual you dont understand the issue. Since Galadriels father was born in Valinor, then Galadriel was born in Valinor, and that makes her definitely younger than Cirdan. Unless there is proof that Glorfindel was born in Valinor, instead of his accompanying Finwe there, then he might be as old/older than Cirdan.


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## Bill the Pony (Feb 27, 2002)

From HoME 6 ch. XII At Rivendell. Tolkien doodled on a piece of paper:


> Glorfindel tells of his ancestry in Gondolin


Not entirely sure of the word ancestry, but I believe it implies he has parents, i.e. Glorfindel is younger than Cirdan.


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## Thorin (Feb 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Harad _
> *As usual you dont understand the issue. Since Galadriels father was born in Valinor, then Galadriel was born in Valinor, and that makes her definitely younger than Cirdan.*



It's hard to understand the issue when you continually contradict yourself and don't seem to know what you believe or understand.  

quote from Harad:

However I can not find any evidence that Glorfindel or Galadriel, both Noldur, were not also alive at the time of Cirdan, sailed to Valinor, then returned. In the absence of evidence that Galadriel or Glorfindel were born in Valinor, how can one conclude that Cirdan is older? 

I never said anything about Glorfindel being for sure older then Cirdan, I just think that it was unlikely.

quote from Thorin in reference to Harad's comment about Galadriel:
"I don't fully understand the debate about Galadriel NOT being born in Valinor... "

So, Harad, take your sanctimonious attitude and stuff it if you can't even explain yourself straight...Take a bit of responsibility for once.


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## Thorin (Feb 27, 2002)

Information taken from Morgoth's Ring; HoME VOL X

YT = Year of the trees

1115 YT: March of the Eldar

1128 YT: "Now the host of the Teleri came at last to Beleriand and dwelt in the eastward region beyond the River Gelion.

1132 YT: Teleri settle along the shores of Beleriand. It mentions that Olwe was their king, which doesn't mean that Cirdan wasn't a lord because in 1162, it mentions that Olwe was still the king.

1149 YT: Specific mention of Cirdan the Shipwright as lord of the Teleri along the shores "those were the Eldar that long abode on the coasts of Beleriand, the first mariners upon earth and the first makers of ships. Their havens were at Brithombar and Eglarest. Cirdan the Shipwright was their lord."

My guess is that it is quite feasible that Cirdan was leading when the Teleri dwelt by the shores in 1132. It was probably feasible that he underwent the great march as well.

1362 YT: Galadriel born

That puts Cirdan at least 2130 years older then Galadriel and possibly 2470 years older.

I haven't checked any of the other HoME series, but Glorfindel's only real mention is his dwelling in Gondolin. I can't see him being older then Turgon, who was born in Valinor....I think that it is pretty safe to say that Cirdan was much older then Glorfindel.


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## Harad (Feb 27, 2002)

I would agree that the indications are that Glorfindel was younger, e.g. than Feanor...meaning that he is younger than Cirdan. Still, its probably not mentioned in print, as I have looked without success so far...


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## Tar-Elenion (Feb 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Bucky _
> And, on Cirdan:
> He was the Lord of the Teleri who did not depart ME & stayed at the Falas.
> These Elves were 'original' or eldest (in terms of 'Awakening) as they were partakers of the great journey.
> ...



What makes you think that Cirdan and Olwe, Elwe, Finwe, Ingwe were 'eldest' in terms of the 'Awakening'? (I presume you mean that they Awoke at Cuivienen and thus were among the Unbegotten.)


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## Bucky (Feb 28, 2002)

I simply meant eldest in terms of 'from the beginning', not the VERY first to awake (although that is indeed a possibility), pre-birth or 'unbegotten' as you say. 

I'd have to read the story in The Silm to see what's to be gleaned from it.

But, Elwe, aka Thingol, does tell the Dwarves he fights with over the Nauglmir that his "life began by the waters of Cuivienen years uncounted ere the fathers of the stunted people awoke"

So, I think it's a safe bet that he's from the first 'batch', although that doesn't explain how he had a 'brother', Olwe.....


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## Brent (Feb 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Bucky _
> *I simply meant eldest in terms of 'from the beginning', not the VERY first to awake (although that is indeed a possibility), pre-birth or 'unbegotten' as you say.
> 
> I'd have to read the story in The Silm to see what's to be gleaned from it.
> ...



Though I assume the Elves lived @ Cuivienen for a considerable period of time, indeed they must have done for there were only 144 to start with. Also I understand there is talk that Indis is the sister of Ingwe somewhere in HoME


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## Bucky (Feb 28, 2002)

Yeah, after Thorin posted that about 144 'original' Elves, I wondered if Elwe & Olwe (or Cirdan) could've been from the first (or later) 'broods'.

Still, The Noldor (at least) seem to have a rather well established 'rule of sucession (sp?) to the Kingship' based on seniority......

They either changed it or got it from previous Kingships among the Elves.

BTW, yes, I know Maedhros renounced the Kingship......


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## Bucky (Feb 28, 2002)

Oops-

I forgot this thought:

Maybe there were 2 or 3, even 4 generations when Orome arrived. 

Maybe those chosen to go were the only ones WILLING to go, although it says in the Silm that they were 'chosen'....

As they came back changed mightily, they naturally became the Kings......


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## Tar-Elenion (Feb 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Bucky _
> I simply meant eldest in terms of 'from the beginning', not the VERY first to awake (although that is indeed a possibility), pre-birth or 'unbegotten' as you say.
> 
> I'd have to read the story in The Silm to see what's to be gleaned from it.
> ...



The explanation to Elwe having a brother (or rather two brothers (Olwe and Elmo) is that he did not 'Awake' at Cuivienen, but rather had parents. According to the 'Awakening of the Quendi' in WotJ, there were 144 Elves who Awoke at Cuivienen. There were 72 men and 72 women and "Eru had so ordained that each should lie beside his or her 'destined spouse'". We know that Elwe's spouse was Melian of the Maia, who did not Awake at Cuivienen, and thus Elwe could not have Awoke at Cuivienen with his 'destined spouse'. He met her much later in Beleriand. This means Elwe was not one of the 'Unbegotten'. Since he was not one of the original Elves to Awake, and he had two brothers, he (or rather they) had parents. We also know that Finwe did not Awake beside his spouse. Finwe wed Miriel, who as we learn in the Shibboleth of Feanor (PoME) was named Serinde by her mother, and it strongly implies that Miriel was born in Aman. As Miriel had parents, she was not one of the Unbegotten, and thus neither was Finwe because he did not 'Awake' beside her. Thus Finwe had parents. Ingwe had a sister, Indis in one version, and Indis' mother in the next. As Ingwe had a sibling, he had parents as well. Cirdan is said to be kin (unspecified) to Elwe, unless he was Elwe's (fore)father then it is unlikely that he Awoke at Cuivienen but rather he too was born there and probably a cousin of some sort (implying that Elwe was at least third generation).


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## Tar-Elenion (Feb 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Bucky _Yeah, after Thorin posted that about 144 'original' Elves, I wondered if Elwe & Olwe (or Cirdan) could've been from the first (or later) 'broods'.
> 
> Still, The Noldor (at least) seem to have a rather well established 'rule of sucession (sp?) to the Kingship' based on seniority......
> 
> ...



Actually the Noldor do not seem to have had very well established 'rule of succession' (at least not initially, and what need? The King was 'immortal' and did not expect to die). After Finwe's death there was a lot of trouble over who was going to succeed him, with both Feanor and Fingolfin claiming the Kingship. After Feanor's death Maedhros waived his claim in favour of Fingolfin's (though not all of Maedhros brothers agreed with that decision). Before Finwe, Ingwe and Elwe became kings, there do not seem to have been any kings among the Quendi (though 'chieftains' are referred to).


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## Bucky (Mar 1, 2002)

WotJ?

Please specify.
I need to do some more book buying on HoME. Is it part of that?

So, that all makes sense in terms of 'the awakening'.
No doubt that those with the guts to go with Orome & check out Valinor first were already the leaders. Then, they come back with a 1000 watt lightbulb in each eye......


BTW:
I don't recall that Fingolfin fought at all with Feanor over who would be King after Finwe died.

I think they fought over whether to go back to ME.


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## Beleg Strongbow (Mar 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Bucky _
> *WotJ?
> 
> Please specify.
> ...





He didn't fight him he just staked a claim.


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## Tar-Elenion (Mar 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Bucky _
> WotJ?
> Please specify.
> I need to do some more book buying on HoME. Is it part of that?



WotJ= War of the Jewels, HoME 11.



> BTW:
> I don't recall that Fingolfin fought at all with Feanor over who would be King after Finwe died.
> 
> I think they fought over whether to go back to ME.



In Tirion there was debate on whether or not to return to ME. Feanor claimed the kingship there, but when he attempted to marshal the Noldor, they would not renounce Fingolfin, who had been ruling them while Finwe was in (self) exile with Feanor (Finwe held himself 'unkinged'). Fingolfin claimed the kingship as well (see especially 'The Shibboleth of Feanor' in 'Peoples of Middle-earth', HoME 12).


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