# Significance of 7?



## Anamatar IV (Jan 8, 2003)

i would like to know what is the significance of 7 in tolkien's books? The 7 fathers of the dwarves, the 7 gates of Gondolin, the 7 stars of the kings...  

Could someone more learned in Tolkien-lore shed some light for me?


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## Aulë (Jan 8, 2003)

Don't forget the 7 palantir, and the 7 dwarven rings...


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## Lhunithiliel (Jan 9, 2003)

It was quite some time ago, when reading the UT and the Gondolin-relevant pieces from HoME, that I have been impressed by the same thing.
In our Guild I had long ago opened a thread about various questions : here is the link to it 
And there I once put this question. Unfortunately, noone answered.



> QUESTION?
> What is it about the number “7” that is so often present in the tales and the stories about Gondolin ?
> 
> quote:
> ...


Anamatar, I hope someone will give some comment on it this time!


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## FoolOfATook (Jan 9, 2003)

Tolkien's Catholic faith is part of the answer here (Seven Deadly Sins, Seven Cardinal Virtues, On the seventh day God rested, etc.). Also, think about how often the number seven is used in lore- Seven Hills of Rome, The Seven Seas, The Seven Wonders of the Ancient World, and so forth.


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## Lhunithiliel (Jan 9, 2003)

I N T E R E S T I N G !!!!!!

Thank you!
It is true, when one thinks of it. In the folklore of my country, for example, the numbers 3 and 7 are to be seen quite often..... Mostly the "3", however!

I have heard and read a few things about those two numbers.... And it really makes my head dizzy  Why 3 and 7???? Why not 4, 5...9??? Why both of these numbers are odd? Why even numbers are not considered "magical"....
It would be interesting to read the opinion of people who might have read more on this matter!


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## Orodreth (Jan 9, 2003)

Don't forget, the Sicle of the Valar (big dipper i think) has seven stars in it, and it was made to show Morgoth's doom (even if his downfall was long after the Sicle was made). I think that is signifigant, and Tolkein couldn't have changed the number of stars in the big dipper. Or could he?


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## Lantarion (Jan 9, 2003)

I have noticed that numbers like 3, 7 and 9 occur in relation to magical, mythological, or otherwise arcane topics. I do not kow the reason for this, but this view is rather Occidental: in China the numner 8 is an incredibly potent number which signifies 'luck'. The reason for this is that its pronunciation is very close to the Chinese word for 'Buddha' (_fut_, pronounced with a soft 'a' and a silent 't'). I have seen no reasons for the significant meanings of the numbers 3, 7 and 9; althuogh I also think them to be somehow special, thuogh I do not know why..


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## elvish-queen (Jan 9, 2003)

Well, better than 6 eh?? Otherwise there would be more controversy about Tolkien than Potter!


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## Rúmil (Jan 9, 2003)

7 is a very symbolic number in many cultures (and in the Bible!), and often evokes goodness. Mythographs have said that that is because it is such an interesting and 'complicated number: try and divide 10 by 7!

The use of the number 7 as a particularily relevant number is millennia old, there is really no telling why it was noticed in the first place.


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## faila (Jan 9, 2003)

7 is considered the number of God or a holy number by all those of the christian faith, including catholics. SO I would assume that he might of derived it either intentionaly or unintentionally.


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## Rangerdave (Jan 9, 2003)

I hate to be the one to offer up a practical explanation of things...

Has anyone ever considered that seven is the onlt single digit number in the English language that is multisylabic? It may be that Tolkien uses the word seven because it is much easier to place into verse than the others.

In short, it scans better.

just a thought
RD


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## jallan (Jan 10, 2003)

The Great Dipper contains seven bright stars that rotate around the north pole, and were closer to the north pole in early historical times.

In Hindu mytholgy these are identified with the Seven Sages.

A group of Seven Sages also appear in Babylonian tradition and Greek tradition, though neither of these groups is connected with the stars

There are also the seven visible planets, as the Greeks called them, which we call the Sun, the Moon, Venus, Mercury, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn.

These were connected symbolically with the seven common metals: gold, silver, copper, mercury, iron, tin, and lead.

The seven days of the week were named for the gods assocaited with seven planets.

Tolkien claims that the six-day Elvish week was expanded by the Númenoreans into a seven-day week.

The seven branched candalabra in the Jewish temple was probably associated with some of this symbolism.

The Greeks added two further strings to the early five-note lyre, these seven strings corresponding to the notes of the modern European seven-note scale, or close to it, depending on which of many modes the lyre was tuned to.

The numbers three, seven, and nine are generally found more often than any other in eastern and Indo-European myth and legend. The next higher common symbolic number is twelve, but Tolkien only needed the first three.

Using such symbolic numbers may give a more magical feel to whatever they are used for.


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## Lhunithiliel (Jan 11, 2003)

Can I just say

W O W !!!!


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## faila (Jan 11, 2003)

Ithink that ranger dave has a logical arguement, and I would agree with him after reading it. Its the only one digit two syllabyle number, which can make it easier to place in things, for it sounds better. 

Or for all we know tolkien could of just put a list of numbers in a hat and pulled out seven.


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## Lantarion (Jan 11, 2003)

I think Jallan's post contradicts that theory! WOW!!  
Welcome to the forum, jallan!


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## goldmare (Jan 12, 2003)

The number seven is found often throughout the Bible, and is very common in the book of Revelation. Let me list some of the ways they are used:

Letters to seven churches
Seven golden lampstands
Seven stars
Seven spirits
Seven seals
Seven angels
Seven trumpets
Seven thunders
Seven thousand people
Seven heads
Seven angels with seven plagues
Seven golden bowls
Seven hills
Seven kings

And that's only in Revelation!

I think 7 is a very common number in anything religious or mythical, and Tolkien was a very devoit Christian. 7 is usually described as a holy number, and if you wil notice that it is 1 higher than 6, the Devil's number, you will see why.

12 and 3(usually used as "a third" of something) are also very special numbers, but I will not list all the references to them- I would have to comb the entire Bible!


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## jallan (Jan 12, 2003)

I think it would be fairer to say that if six is the devil's number it is because it is one less than seven.

Most of the Biblical references probably derive from the seven day week or seven stars of the dipper, either of which provides a good number to use to indicate God's eternity.

The turning of the dipper indicates almost a day, and its differing positions at each hour of every day in the year can be used, in association with hours based on the sun, to indicate the time of year.

Time is also composed of series of seven-day weeks.

Of course time is also a series of lunary cycles or lunar months, of which there are almost twelve in a year.

Twelve is three times four, and seven is three plus four, which seems like it ought to be significant.

Thus grows the mysticism of numbers.

Rather interesting, though the Bible seems to indicate that a seven-day week goes back to the beginning, Tolkien indicates that the seven-day week was a Númenorean adaptation of an original Elvish six-day week, probably because he decided that his Elves generally number with six and twelve rather then with five and ten.


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## PipaHappyHobbit (Jan 12, 2003)

According to most Christian teachings, the number 7 represents completion.


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## faila (Jan 14, 2003)

> I think it would be fairer to say that if six is the devil's number it is because it is one less than seven.


 Six isthe number of man, not the number of satan.


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## goldmare (Jan 14, 2003)

Personally, I don't know why either side has to have numbers representing them, but I'm just telling what the Bible says.


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## jallan (Jan 14, 2003)

Faila posted:


> Six isthe number of man, not the number of satan.


Could be, in some tradition.

I don't think I've actually encountered either tradition that I remember, but numbers can be associated with so many things in so many different texts and cultures.

I had thought that Goldmare, or a source she was using, was basing the association on 666, the number of the Beast in Revelations.


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## faila (Jan 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jallan _
> *Faila posted:Could be, in some tradition.
> 
> I don't think I've actually encountered either tradition that I remember, but numbers can be associated with so many things in so many different texts and cultures.
> ...


 yes and the beats number is 666 is tomake in known that he is a man.


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## goldmare (Jan 15, 2003)

Perhaps you could explain why 6 is the number of man and not of Satan. Aren't all numbers of men? Does 6 have a special significance in mankind? Please explain, I am a bit confused by this statement.


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## elffriend (Mar 12, 2003)

After asking a question about nine being significant, i feel rather silly, as I never thought of the three, or the seven. I would like to add that seven is also called the immediate digit span in psychology,as most people can remember seven digits.


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## jallan (Mar 15, 2003)

Goldmare posted:


> Does 6 have a special significance in mankind? Please explain, I am a bit confused by this statement.


Well, in the creation account at the beginning of the book of Genesis, mankind was created on the 6th day.

But I don’t now recall anything I’ve read that makes something of this, associating the number 6 with humankind.

But of contradictory associations between planets, gems, elements, metals, plants, animals, etc. and numbers there is probably no end.


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## faila (Mar 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jallan _
> *Goldmare posted:Well, in the creation account at the beginning of the book of Genesis, mankind was created on the 6th day.
> 
> But I don’t now recall anything I’ve read that makes something of this, associating the number 6 with humankind.
> ...


 i think it means the man is less than God. It says in revelation that 6 is the number of man, and that 666 is the number of a man.


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## jallan (Mar 18, 2003)

I think you are misremembering Faila.

Revelation 13:18 states something like:


> This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man’s number. His number is 666.


The Greek here translated as “a man’s number” can be equally well interpreted as “the number of a man” meaning a number to be associated with a particular man.

Some English translations render it one way and some the other.

There is no mention of 6 by itself in Revelations connected to either “man” or “a man”.


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## Fatty Lumpkin (Mar 20, 2003)

Well tolkien was a strong catholic and seven is a luckey christian number. So maybe thats it.


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## Sam_Gamgee (Mar 20, 2003)

yes some1 already pointed out the significance of 7 being the christian number because its one above 6 the satanic number.

thats what i was gonna say


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## Lasgalen (Mar 21, 2003)

Fingolfin wounded Morgoth *seven* times. 

-Lasgalen


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## jallan (Mar 21, 2003)

Again, 3, 7, 9 and 12 (with 13 as an an unlikely number) are the most common numbers in European traditional tales and in Middle-eastern traditional tales, whether in Greek mythology, Jewish tradition, Christian traditional, Norse mythology, Celtic mythology, etc. 

It is not surprising that in a work which imitates in part such traditional tales these numbers are also more prominant than 5, 8, 10, 11, 14, 15, etc.

There is nothing particularly Christian about there being seven races of Dwarves, for example, or seven _palantírs_ (or seven gods who survive Ragnarǫk in Norse mythology ...). 

The seven stars of the Dipper, seen by Durin as a crown in the Mirrormere, in a story never told fully or intelligibly by Tolkien, is more likely to have some relation to there being seven races of Dwarves.


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## Sam_Gamgee (Mar 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jallan _
> *There is nothing particularly Christian about there being seven races of Dwarves, for example, or seven palantírs (or seven gods who survive Ragnarǫk in Norse mythology ...).*



no, there is not, i was saying tolkien was a catholic, and he incorporated his religion into some of his work.... which he has said himself.... some people say LOTR was based on christianity, but i dunno about that,... but he does use minor themes, nothing huge or noticable(sp) unless your looking for it.


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## jallan (Mar 22, 2003)

Yes, but where does Tolkien use 7 or any number in a particularly _Christian_ fashion in a way thet might be used in Christian symbolism?

Possibly there is a connection between the seven Valar (and seven Valier) and the seven archangels in Judeo-Christian legend and mythology.

But even in this Tolkien doesn’t come very close to general Christian legend.

One could, perhaps identify Manwë with St. Michael, but usually in Christian legend one finds St. Michael himself battling Satan, while in Tolkien’t legendarium it is Tulkas who does the actual fighting.

Who is Gabriel or Raphael in Tolkien’t legendarium?

Though a Christian himself, generally Tolkien avoids symbolism and equations in his legendarium that are specifically Christian, partly because of his distaste for allegory.


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## Lasgalen (Mar 22, 2003)

7 may not have been used in a christian fashion, but it certainly does recur an awful lot. I cut and pasted this list from another forum so I can not take credit for these.

Sevens

Gates of Gondolin
Rivers of Ossiriand
Walls of Minas Tirith
Tunnels of Minas Tirith
Gates of Minas Tirith
Dwarven Rings
Dwarven Hoardes
Dwarven Fathers
Durins
Valar
Valier
Palantiri
Sons of Feanor
Stars of the Valacirca
Possible Balrogs (?)
Beacon Hills of Gondor
Years of Siege of Barad-dur
Stars of Gondor
Times Fingolfin wounded Morgoth
Names of Gondolin
Swans sent to Tuor
High Kings of the Noldor
Periods of light of the Two trees
Stars of Durin
Times Sam was mayor
Dwarven Clans
Days of Gandalf fighting the Balrog
Ships of Elendil

-Lasgalen


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## ms Greenleaf (Mar 23, 2003)

Well I know that 9 is the number of power (for good or evil)
and 7 is a number for luck, and something else which I cannot remember this DOES NOT just apply to Tolkein,


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## jallan (Mar 23, 2003)

Walls of Gondolin: historically, as described by Herodotus, Ecbatana, the modern Hamadan, the Persian capital, was surrounded by seven walls. This is quite possibly Tolkien’s inspiration.

The gates (of necessity) duplicate this number and should not count as a separate seven. But there are only six tunnels, not seven, as the lowest level of the city has no tunnel.

Of course the Thebes of Greek legend was also famous for its seven gates, though they were all in the outer wall.

The stars of Durin composing Durin’s crown and the Valacirca are the same thing, and the Valacirca has seven stars because in fact the Great Dipper in reality has seven stars.

Dwarvish Rings of course connect, finally, with Dwarvish clans, though admittedly created as a group of seven before the idea of giving them to Dwarves emerge. Dwarf hoardes and Dwarf fathers duplicate the clans and Rings and are not separate sevens.

The seven Durins may symbolically reflect the seven Dwarf clans also.

(I wonder if the story “Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs” was an unconscious influence on Tolkien&#8217s persistant use of seven for his Dwarves.)

The seven stars of the rhyme were on the seven banners of the ships bearing each one of the seven _palantírs_ and so only duplicate the _palantírs_, are not a separate seven. But Elendil had gathered _nine_ ships not _seven_, and when he and Isildur were separted in the storm, he had four and Isildur (with Anárion) three, so there are no seven ships altogether. It is unfair to count the seven ships each carrying a _palantír_ as a separate seven from the _palantirs_ themselves.

The seven stars of Gondor on Aragorn&#8217s standard are again the seven stars on the flags of Elendi”s ships.

The number of the Valar I have already covered as possibly showing purposeful Judeo-Christian influence.

Possible Balrogs: “There should not be supposed more than say 3 or at most 7 ever existed”. Not at all a definite seven.

Yet even subtracting the duplications and dropping the errors there are indeed still a lot of sevens in Tolkien.

But check Number Seven and 7 Seven 7 for many sevens in the real world, some specifically connected with Christian symbolism, but most not.

Especially pertinent is:


> Ask a number of different people to give you any number between one and ten, and most will choose seven. Ask people to name their favourite number between one and ten, and again most will say seven.


This explains a lot.

Seven just _is_ psychologically “magical&#8221, and is so in all cultures and traditions so far as I know.

Tolkien, writing what is intended to be heroic romance and mythology, naturally and possibly not always consciously reflects this.

And of course, any set can be counted, and sometimes the number by chance will be seven.


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## argonathaniel (Apr 1, 2003)

maybe because there are nine planets... earth is the third planet from the sun, and the seventh planet away from the sun


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## jallan (Apr 1, 2003)

And of course Tolkien died in 1973, the digits read backwards being the order in which they appear in the inscription on the One Ring.


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jallan _
> *And of course Tolkien died in 1973, the digits read backwards being the order in which they appear in the inscription on the One Ring. *



An interesting observation jallan. That is one very strange coincidence (if we can call it that).


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## goldmare (May 11, 2003)

Wow... weird.

I once heard somewhere that the human memory can instantly recall a number up to seven digits... although this is probably because of the telephone...


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