# The indomitable Lothlórien



## Ithrynluin (Apr 4, 2003)

From _Appendix B to the LOTR_:



> Three times Lórien had been assailed from Dol Guldur; but besides the valour of the elven people of that land, *the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come there himself*. Though grievous harm was done to the fair woods on the borders, the assaults were driven back; and when the Shadow passed, Celeborn came forth and led the host of Lórien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed.



Lórien was attacked three times during the WotR, and all three assaults were defied. We know that the main stroke of Sauron's forces was aimed at Minas Tirith. Could Lórien have defied such an enormous attack? According to the quote, Lórien could withstand ANYTHING, any amount of troops, save Sauron himself. Could it really?

How literally do you take this?

What do you take the great power that dwelt there to be? Nenya? Galadriel herself? Was Lórien the last and greatest bastion of the forces of good in Middle Earth?


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## Gothmog (Apr 4, 2003)

For this to be true (and it is stated in very certain terms) it could not be just Galadriel herself that was the power. Although she was no doubt very powerful, the Last of the Noldor who led the March from Valinor, she was still only an Elf.

But the last part of the quote


> They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed.


 shows that it is indeed Galadriel that has the power.

It is my thought that the power was a combination of the Last Queen of the Noldor and the Ring of Adamant Nenya. Nothing less could defy Anything short of Sauron himself.


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 4, 2003)

> But the last part of the quote
> quote:
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed.
> ...



But keep in mind that this happened _after_ Sauron's demise, and that Dol Guldur can't have posed a big threat anymore really.
I am not rejecting the powers and virtues that Galadriel undeniably possessed, but this action was basically the cleaning of the aftermath of battle.



> Nothing less could defy Anything short of Sauron himself.



But then again, in Minas Tirith, we have Gandalf the Maia, who is in possession of Narya the Great. He was mightier than Galadriel, so couldn't we apply the same logic here - and even to a greater extent since he was greater? How could anything defy Gandalf, save Sauron himself? 
Yet Minas Tirith was invaded by the Witch-king and almost ruined. I am having a hard time picturing the same army that assaulted Minas Tirith attacking Lórien and failing.
Just wondering.


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## Gothmog (Apr 4, 2003)

> He was mightier than Galadriel, so couldn't we apply the same logic here - and even to a greater extent since he was greater? How could anything defy Gandalf, save Sauron himself?


 But was he though? Gandalf was Limited in what he could do. This was to ensure that it was the people of Middle-earth who had to defeat Sauron.

So we cannot know for sure that he was, as an Istari, more powerful in this defence than Galadriel. It could be that the preservative power of Narya coupled with the power of Galadriel Was too great to be broken by anything less than Sauron. Galadriel was not a warrior, Her power was not take the battle to the enemy but to preserve what was. This can be formidable indeed.


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Gothmog _
> *But was he though? Gandalf was Limited in what he could do. This was to ensure that it was the people of Middle-earth who had to defeat Sauron.*



Yes, I understand that limitations were imposed upon all the Istari; but according to Gandalf himself, he is



> more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord.



From "The White Rider"

How then should we interpret this?



> It could be that the preservative power of Narya coupled with the power of Galadriel Was too great to be broken by anything less than Sauron. Galadriel was not a warrior, Her power was not take the battle to the enemy but to preserve what was. This can be formidable indeed.



I wholeheartedly agree. I just feel the need to delve deeper into this. Would Elrond/Rivendell had posed the same amount of resistance as Lothlórien would?


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## Gothmog (Apr 4, 2003)

I do not think that Elrond would be able to defend Rivendel in anything like the same way. I think that this is a case where the difference between the sexes shows. The nuturing of the female will give rise to a defence which is Awesome. Few males could show anywhere near the power. In the case of Males, they are better at attacking. While Gandalf would be the most dangerous thing that they would ever meet unless they stood before Sauron, this would not prevent Galadriel from giving to Lothlorien a defence that even Gandalf could not break.

Gladadrial too was "Dangerous" but in a different way (just ask Gimli  ). But her power was not in attack but defence.


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 4, 2003)

Could we then say that Lórien was the most fortified and "unbreakable" fortress of the forces of good?


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## Gothmog (Apr 4, 2003)

In my opinion I would totaly agree with that statement. I for one would find it impossible to conceive of any place more "unbreakable".


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## Tar-Elenion (Apr 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Gothmog _
> I do not think that Elrond would be able to defend Rivendel in anything like the same way. I think that this is a case where the difference between the sexes shows. The nuturing of the female will give rise to a defence which is Awesome. Few males could show anywhere near the power. In the case of Males, they are better at attacking.



Gandalf when answering Frodo's query, suggests that Rivendell would be the last fall:
"`What about Rivendell and the Elves? Is Rivendell safe?'
`Yes, at present, until all else is conquered. The Elves may fear the Dark Lord, and they may fly before him, but never again will they listen to him or serve him. And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power.'"
FotR, Many Meetings


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## Gothmog (Apr 4, 2003)

> Gandalf when answering Frodo's query, suggests that Rivendell would be the last fall:


 This is true but Lothlorien was attacked before Saurons army passed the Misty Mountains. Therefore until the fall of Galadriel Rivendell was safe. It did not need to be stronger for Gandalf's words to be true.


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Tar-Elenion _
> *Gandalf when answering Frodo's query, suggests that Rivendell would be the last fall:
> "`What about Rivendell and the Elves? Is Rivendell safe?'
> `Yes, at present, until all else is conquered. The Elves may fear the Dark Lord, and they may fly before him, but never again will they listen to him or serve him. And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power.'"
> FotR, Many Meetings *



It strikes me as fascinating that Rivendell was not at all assaulted during the WotR. This could be either because:

1. Sauron thought it too hard a target and didn't even try but rather concentrated his forces elsewhere where there was more hope for victory

2. Sauron wishes to subdue all the wide lands EAST of the Misty Mountains before undertaking any Western "migration"

I'd go with the second choice, because it seems much more reasonable.

Tar-E, I do not think that this passage necessarily indicates that Rivendell would be the last to fall. Gandalf is merely answering Frodo's question *about Rivendell alone*. Frodo does not ask: "Is Rivendell the *safest*?" and Gandalf could mean "Yes, until all the lands between Mordor and Rivendell are conquered" This does not necessarily mean that Rivendell is stronger than Lórien, it is just further away and not an immediate target.


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## Beleg (Apr 5, 2003)

> 2. Sauron wishes to subdue all the wide lands EAST of the Misty Mountains before undertaking any Western "migration"



Yes he Needs to subdue all the lands of east if he wishes for a safe attack or Seige of Rivendell. For the Position of Rivendell is such any Army would have to cross Misty mountains and if they have enemies left on their rear, the attacking side might see itself defending. Precisely what happened to the armies of Sauron in the War of the Rings of Power, so that's why Sauron probably wanted to establish his domain in Gondor and Rohvanion before moving into Eriador. 



> This is true but Lothlorien was attacked before Saurons army passed the Misty Mountains. Therefore until the fall of Galadriel Rivendell was safe. It did not need to be stronger for Gandalf's words to be true.



I agree with this opinion. Due to its position Rivendell was safe until all of its eastern alliances fell and in that order it would have natrually been the last. 


What I wonder is that was Galadriel powerful enough, even with the ring to Withstand Sauron for a large amount of time with his ring?

perhaps another fact which can go to the advantage of Lorien is the number of Elves. I have always assumed the Population of Lorien to be far greater then Rivendell and due to its envoirnment, its elven-friendly woods it would strategically have been a different target for Orcs to conquer.


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 5, 2003)

> Due to its position Rivendell was safe until all of its eastern alliances fell and in that order it would have natrually been the last.



I wonder how Lindon fits into this equation. According to the logic "the further West, the later to fall" Lindon should be the last to fall. But maybe Mithlond would be Sauron's priority before Imladris, so as to prevent any Elves the chance of fleeing ME.



> What I wonder is that was Galadriel powerful enough, even with the ring to Withstand Sauron for a large amount of time with his ring?



The quote I posted in the beginning says: "the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come there himself" and I assume that Sauron would be ringless if he came, since he didn't have the Ring at the time.
Not a doubt is left in my mind that, had Sauron regained the One Ring, Middle Earth would be his for the taking.


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## Húrin Thalion (Apr 5, 2003)

I would just liek to bring attention to Gandalf's account of the quest of Erebor in the Unfinished tales in which some interesting things are mentioned about Sauron's plans for different parts of ME. He counted on Smaug and the orcs of the north in his plans but a 'confusticated' hobbit came by along with some dwarves and Gandalf and they ultimately caused the death of the dragon and of the orcs in the battle of the five armies. Thus the free peoples of ME ruled western Rhovanion once more. Gandalf sais that the world would be worse if that had not happened, Rivendell, Bree, the Shire would have been ravaged and Aragorn would have had no bride. Maybe even the havens would haev been destroyed. This clearly shows that Gandalf thought of Smaug as a tool of Sauron, willingly or not. This raises another question in my mind, was the outcome of the battle of five armies in any way affected by Bilbo's posession of the Ring?

Another question. The forces that attacked Erebor and Dale were probably supposed to attack Eriador but this was unmade by Gandalf's actions. That scenario is entirely different and contrafactical.

Húrin Thalion


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## Tar-Elenion (Apr 5, 2003)

Gandalf says that Rivendell would be the last place to fall. He then speaks of the strength in Rivendell. He does not speak of the strength elsewhere defending it. Rivendell had withstood seiges in both the Second and Third Ages.

Yes Lorien would have the larger population. Elrond had summoned soldiers out of Lorien to help in the Angmar wars.


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Tar-Elenion _
> * He does not speak of the strength elsewhere defending it. Rivendell had withstood seiges in both the Second and Third Ages. *



No, he does not speak of the strength elsewhere defending it. But we readers, as well as Gandalf and the people of Imladris, know well enough that the free peoples East of Rivendell are not sitting idle.
Lórien had also withstood any attack it ever received.


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## Tar-Elenion (Apr 5, 2003)

There are also Elrond's (and Galdor's) comments:
"`I know little of Iarwain save the name,' said Galdor; `but Glorfindel, I think, is right. Power to defy our Enemy is not in him, unless such power is in the earth itself. And yet we see that Sauron can torture and destroy the very hills. What power still remains lies with us, here in Imladris, or with Cirdan at the Havens, or in Lórien. But have they the strength, have we here the strength to withstand the Enemy, the coming of Sauron at the last, when all else is overthrown?'
`I have not the strength,' said Elrond; `neither have they.'"
FotR, Council of Elrond.


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## BlackCaptain (Apr 5, 2003)

Very good topic...

Rivendell would be the 'Last to fall' because it is the last major elven kingdom west of the Misty's. Like Beleg said, Sauron wouldn't have moved an entire army across the Misty's while there are still armies behind him. Sauron would first have to take care of Minas Tirith, and Lorien before Rivendell be atacked. 

Rivendell is generaly a smaller elven kindgom. I don't think, even with all of the valiant elves, that they could withold an army of tens of thousands. Sure, they withheld the Nazgul, but they were only nine. Rivendell wouldnt have the strength to defend even 10,000 in my eyes, unless they had outside help like the battle of the Hornburg (Erkenbrand). 

But of course, Rivendell is generaly hidden, and on the west of the largest mountain range in ME, while Sauron and all the war is in the East. Lorien on the other hand, has the strongest Elven-queen in ME, a very powerful Elven King, and the best damn woodsmanship the world has seen. And of course im sure the elves had some skill with the sword. 

Im not realy sure what questions im answering, im just giving my general opinion.


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## BlackCaptain (Apr 5, 2003)

Asked by Hurin:

-This raises another question in my mind, was the outcome of the battle of five armies in any way affected by Bilbo's posession of the Ring?

~I think so. The dwarves would have been dead if it werent for Bilbo. They would have been spider food in Mirkwood. This would mean they wouldn't have forced the Dragon out of the mountain, keeping him alive, causing a different outcome in the battle. Im not sure what kind though, but im sure there would be a different outcome.


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## Tar-Elenion (Apr 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by BlackCaptain _
> Rivendell would be the 'Last to fall' because it is the last major elven kingdom west of the Misty's.



Lindon under Cirdan was further to the west.




> Lorien on the other hand, has the strongest Elven-queen in ME, a very powerful Elven King, and the best damn woodsmanship the world has seen. And of course im sure the elves had some skill with the sword.


Galadriel and Celeborn were not Queen and King.


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## BlackCaptain (Apr 5, 2003)

Umm... Of Lothlorien they were...


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## BlackCaptain (Apr 5, 2003)

And I know that Lindon was futher west. What I meant to say was Rivendell would be the last standing of the Elven kingdoms west of the Misty's. Like Ithrynluin said, Sauron would have attaked Lindon first to insure no elves tried to leave ME.


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## Tar-Elenion (Apr 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by BlackCaptain _
> Umm... Of Lothlorien they were...



"Celeborn and Galadriel returned to Lórien, and were welcomed by the people. There they dwelt while the Third Age lasted, but they took no title of King or Queen; for they said that they were only guardians of this small but fair realm, the last eastward outpost of the Elves."
UT, History of Galdriel and Celeborn

When reviewing a possible script for a film treatment of LotR in which the screenwriter wrote:
"'A splendid sight. It is the home of Galadriel. . . an Elvenqueen.'" 
JRRT responded:
"(She is not in fact one.)"


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Tar-Elenion _
> *
> Galadriel and Celeborn were not Queen and King. *



This is purely a matter of semantics. They were called "Lord and Lady", which is basically the same thing. They were rulers of Lórien.


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## Tar-Elenion (Apr 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by BlackCaptain _
> And I know that Lindon was futher west. What I meant to say was Rivendell would be the last standing of the Elven kingdoms west of the Misty's. Like Ithrynluin said, Sauron would have attaked Lindon first to insure no elves tried to leave ME.



Or perhaps as Gandalf suggests, the power in Rivendell was great enough to preserve it until all else fell.

"'Yes, you saw him for a moment as he is upon the other side: one of the mighty of the Firstborn. He is an Elf-lord of a house of princes. Indeed there is a power in Rivendell to withstand the might of Mordor, for a while: and elsewhere other powers still dwell. There is power, too, of another kind in the Shire. But all such places will soon become islands under siege, if things go on as they are going. The Dark Lord is putting forth all his strength."
FotR, Many Meetings


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## Tar-Elenion (Apr 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> This is purely a matter of semantics. They were called "Lord and Lady", which is basically the same thing. They were rulers of Lórien.


Semantics perhaps, but important enough to JRRT to draw an explicit distinction when he had more firmly decided on their History w/ Lorien.


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## BlackCaptain (Apr 5, 2003)

When I say King and Queen, I mean rulers. I just assumed that it wouldnt matter. Kings and Queens are rulers of realms, like Celeborn and Galadriel. Precise pronouns i guess.


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## elfgirl (Apr 5, 2003)

Has everyone failed to think that it may not JUST be the ring, may not JUST be Galadriel, may not JUST be the forest or JUST the elves inhabiting it, yet all of the above? Has anyone thought that all of them could play a part, with a equal amount of strength, stability, and raw power?That it could be a combination of all of them that makes Lothlorien so powerful?


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## BlackCaptain (Apr 6, 2003)

Well there was never any denying the valor of a ton of High Elves in the best gaurded forrest in ME. But iv'e always thought that Galadriel had a sort of, mini Girdle of Galadriel (as opposed to the Girdle of Melien) around Lorien. Mabey that's why the Fellowship was forced to be blindfolded. So they couldn't find the way to navigate through the Girdle. Ive always thought of Lorien as 'magicaly' gaurded somehow. 

I know that all of these valiant elves would play a big role in the protection of Lorien, but Lorien was also assaulted 3 times in the WotR. The Elves strength would play a part in gaurding the realm, but we're debating if something bigger were to be gaurding Lorien. 'Unless Sauron himself came', er something like that, means that this power in Lorien was very large, and would have to be something more than just the valor of Elves. We're trying to find out what that 'something more' would be.


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## krash8765 (Apr 8, 2003)

Lorien also was very large, as said in the atlas of middle-earth it was 50 miles in diameter, and thus u can assume it had a pretty large population of elves also including most of the noldor remaining in Middle-earth. This would of greatly contributed to the defence of lothlorien. 
I have a question. How could rivendell be the last kingdom to fall? Its location was strategic but it had a flaw. It was in a valley! Could not the enemy circle the valley and rain fire on it from above with siege engines and arrows. It does not seem like a hard place to conquer except for the high elves that were there and elrond. I just can't see how it could be defended against a large army of mordor of maybe 20,000. They could fight on higher land but what then when they were defeated?


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