# Question concerning gandalf



## elfofthewoods (Jan 21, 2003)

In the hobbit, does gandalf know that Biblo has a ring, but just does not know that it is the ring of power?


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## Arvedui (Jan 21, 2003)

That is quite right.
Not even Tolkien knew at the time that it was the One Ring, or even a ring of power.


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## Lady Aragorn (Jan 25, 2003)

Actually in the forward of The Fellowship the book says that Gandalf did know of the ring, but not how Bilbo got it or what it is. It quite condridicts The Hobbit altogether. But I have an assumption that Gandalf knew that Bilbo's escape from the Orc Tunnels was more than pure luck.


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## jallan (Jan 26, 2003)

The introduction actually says:


> Gandalf, however, disbelieved Bilbo's first story, as soon as he heard it, and he continued to be very curious about the ring. Eventually he got the true tale out of Bilbo after much questioning, which for a while strained their friendship; but the wizard seemed to think the truth important.


There is nothing here in contradiction to _The Hobbit_ other than _The Hobbit_ does not mention that Bilbo was not altogether truthful in his first account to Gandalf and the Dwarves.

In the chapter "The Shadow of the Past" Gandalf claims that it was clear from the first that the Ring was one of the Great Rings, but everything else said in that chapter and elsewhere indicates that cannot be true.

Tolkien must have meant to write that if it was clear from the first that it was a Ring of Power.

Gandalf thought it to be one of the many lesser Rings created by the Elven-smiths before they started the forging of the Great Rings.


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## Eye'r'oof (Jan 28, 2003)

The Hobbit is a tale and The Lord of the Rings is a serious thing.
Writing The Hobbit Professor was not planing The LOTR and the ring was just a ring of invisibility and nothing more. And the thing that Bilbo did not said all the truth was just a sign that Bilbo has changed because he has this secret. Probably trying to explain that it's better not to have secrets and so on. And Gandalf as all-knowing character of course knows that there is something that helped Bilbo. Probably he even knows how it helped.


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## jallan (Jan 28, 2003)

In _The Hobbit_, chapter VIII, "Flies and Spiders", Bilbo is forced to use the Ring's power of invisibility to rescure the Darves frmo the spiders, following which:


> They had to have the whole vanishing business carefully explained, and the finding of the ring interested them so much that for a while they forgot their own troubles. Balin in particular insisted on having the Gollum story, riddles and all, told all over again, with the ring in its proper place.


Word about it must have spread somewhat, for in "The Return Journey" Bilbo has a convesation with the Elf-king which makes no sense if the Elf-king did not know a great deal about Bilbo's part in freeing the Dwarves and that Bilbo had been living invisibly in his halls. It ends with:


> "I will take our gift, O Bilbo the Magnificent!" said the king gravely. "And I name you elf-friend and blessed. May your shadow never grow less (or stealing would be too easy)! Farewell!"


We have been told earlier that though the Ring makes its wearer invisible, the wearer's shadow can still be seen in bright light, which is what the Elf-king refers to.

In light of this, it would be more surprising to later discover that Gandalf doesn't know about the Ring than to find that he knows about it.

The Foreward to _The Fellowship of the Ring_ simply confirms what one would normally expect, that Gandalf did learn about the Ring (whether first from the Dwarves or from Bilbo himself). It states:


> Now it is a curious fact that this is not the story as Bilbo first told it to his companions. To them his account was that Gollum had promised to give him a _present_, if he won the game; but when Gollum went to fetch it from his island he found the treasure was gone: a magic ring, which had been given to him long ago on his birthday.
> <snip>
> Gandalf, however, disbelieved Bilbo's first story, as soon as he heard it, and he continued to be very curious about the ring. Eventually he got the true tale out of Bilbo after much questioning, which for a while strained their friendship; but the wizard seemed to think the truth important.


There is no contradition on this point between _The Hobbit_ and _The Lord of the Rings_ at all.

The only difference is that _The Hobbit_ does not indicate that Bilbo's first story of how he obtained the ring was not altogether truthful.

Some may be confusing this first story of how Bilbo obtained the Ring with Bilbo's earlier account to the Dwarves and Gandalf of his encounter with Gollum which did not mention the Ring at all.

This idea of Bilbo lying originally arose because Tolkien modified the account of the riddle game which appeared in the first edition of _The Hobbit_, so that Gollum did not actually give up the Ring, but rather than subsequently ignore that first version, now to be considered incorrect, he explained it as the version that Bilbo actually put down in the Red Book, though the alternate and more accurate account also purportedly appeared in some copies of the Red Book.


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## Jesse (Feb 6, 2003)

Doesn't Gandalf clearly say in Fellowship of the Ring that he didn't know Bilbo had the Ring of Power? Or am I wrong again?


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## Mirabella (Feb 6, 2003)

Gandalf was suspicious of Bilbo's ring, but he was not sure. He trusted Saruman's story that the Ring had been washed out to Sea. It was not until he went to Minas Tirith and read Isildur's account of how the Ring passed to him that he knew for sure what Bilbo had.


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## BlackCaptain (Feb 8, 2003)

Seing as how Tolkien never knew he was going to write LOTR while writing the hobbit, how could Gandalf had suspected this to be the One Ring?
And its not the only time he contradicts himself, even though this realy isnt contradicting:
In "Riddles in the Dark", Tolkien mentions that he does not even know what kind of creature Gollum was, and wouldnt like to know. I dont have The Hobbit on hand, so I cant give you a quote, but that obvioulsy changes. In The Hobbit, we could have only guessed that Gollum was some kind of weird Goblin. In the trilogy, we could find how old Gollum is, his mother, father, uncle, aunt, brother, friend, and prettymuch his entire history.


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## jallan (Feb 8, 2003)

Morgulking posted:


> In "Riddles in the Dark", Tolkien mentions that he does not even know what kind of creature Gollum was, and wouldnt like to know.


The reference referred to reads:


> Deep down here by the dark water lived old Gollum, a small slimy creature. I don’t know where he came from, nor who or what he was. He was Gollum – as dark as darkness, except for two big round pale eyes in his thin face.


Tolkien would probabably have _explained_ this by claiming, as he does elsewhere, that _The Hobbit_ contains Bilbo’s perceptions.

In some later writing Tolkien similarly explains two errors in _The Lord of the Rings_ as Frodo's misinterpretations.

But very interestingly in the same chapter we find:


> But who know how Gollum came by that present, ages ago in the old days when such rings were still at large in the world? Perhaps even the Master who ruled them could not have said.


Even when he wrote _The Hobbit_ somewhere in the back or front of Tolkien's mind was the idea of a Lord who ruled the various magic rings.


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## LordOfMoria (Feb 15, 2003)

Gandalf Knew Afterwards that he had it and then found out btwn those 17 years when frodo first got the ring then set out bag end when he figuered it out, but he still wasnt 100% till the council of elrond!


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## olorin the maia (Feb 16, 2003)

Gandalf knew that Frodo's ring was the One when he visited him in the Shire in the spring of 3018 TA. His certainty is manifest when he reads the inscription on the Ring after putting it into the cooking fire at Bag End. That's what causes Frodo to set out on the journey to Rivendell. Although Frodo doesn't leave until September, which nearly proves disastrous.


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## balrog (Feb 24, 2003)

I was under the impression (and may be wrong)...that Gandalf was unaware of the power of the ring until he travelled to Gondor and read over the transcripts involving Isildur.


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## DurinLongBeard (Feb 27, 2003)

> I was under the impression (and may be wrong)...that Gandalf was unaware of the power of the ring until he travelled to Gondor and read over the transcripts involving Isildur.



Alright, Gandalf always knew how powerful the one ring was. He left for Gonder because he had become suspicious of the lore of Saruman, and, obviously, Biblo's ring.

The Council Of Elrond


> 'From the first my heart misgave me, against all reason that I knew,' said Gandalf,' and I desired to know how this thing came to Gollum, and how long he had possessed it


Same Chapter


> "Time passed with many cares, until my doubts were awakened again to sudden fear. Whence came the hobbit's ring? What, if my fear was true, should be done with it? Those things I must decide. But I spoke yet of my dread to none, knowing the peril of an untimely whisper, if it went astray. In all the long wars with the Dark Tower treason has ever been our greatest foe.



Those excerpts prove that Gandalf had feared that Biblo's ring was the One Ring (it was) and that he feared it was so before he visited Minis Tirith. The question was if Gandalf knew the ring was a ring of power during the hobbit. No he did not, he doubted Biblo's original story, and after hearing the honest story, did not suspect right away. He didn't suspect right away because of Saruman saying it had fallen into Anduin the Great, and rolled into the see. Gandalf naturally believed him.


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## FrankSinatra (Mar 2, 2003)

*Feeling*

Gandalf had a kind of 'feeling' about the ring, as is evident by his strange look at Bilbo when he told his tale of Gollum.

How Gandalf knew straight away that something was wrong, i do not know.


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## gilgalad (Mar 2, 2003)

As a maiar it is probable that Gandalf just had an inate perception of things of power such as the ring. Also the fact that he came to ME to counteract the great evil that the valar sensed was growing in ME meant that he was probably very in tune to this evil and could almost feel it.


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## jallan (Mar 9, 2003)

Gandalf was apparently suspicious that Bilbo was concealing something.

That doesn’t mean that Gandalf at that time was thinking of the One Ring or of any Ring.

Gandalf’s later explanations make it clear that he just didn’t think about the One Ring at all, even when he later learned about Bilbo’s Ring of invisibility, until Bilbo’s actions after his 111th birthday party combined with his lack of aging indicated this was not just one of the lesser rings, if Gandalf’s lore about such matters could be trusted.


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## Arda's Bane (Mar 18, 2003)

In the Hobbit the ring was a ring of invisibility, nothing more. The lord of the rings was molded around the hobbit so was the ring's history. If the lord of the rings was not written then the ring would remain an invisibility ring. However it was written and the subject of the ring was the best detail to write a sequel about.


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## Thorondor_ (May 15, 2005)

For it is said indeed that being embodied the Istari had needs to learn much anew by slow experience 

I would say that Gandalf in its original status - that of a Maia - would have known/perceived this is the One ring. But, being incarnate, he had do find out the ordinary, "detectivist" way.


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## OlÃ³rin o Maia (May 15, 2005)

Arda's Bane said:


> In the Hobbit the ring was a ring of invisibility, nothing more. The lord of the rings was molded around the hobbit so was the ring's history. If the lord of the rings was not written then the ring would remain an invisibility ring. However it was written and the subject of the ring was the best detail to write a sequel about.


 
I'm pretty sure that much before the Hobbit came, Tolkien had already concieved more about the ring. Afterall, he was writing The Silmarillion since World War!  And if I'm my suspects are right, Tolkien left Sauron survive the Akallabêth so that he could return to Middle Earth and consummate his revenge!

My opinion! ​


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## Inderjit S (May 15, 2005)

No-the ring had nothing to do with Tolkien's early mythology. It was originally a magic ring, not much else to it really. When Tolkien began writing the sequel to 'The Hobbit' he gave the ring itself a storyline and a whole new significance.


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## Thorondor_ (May 16, 2005)

Hm, name one magic ring that can lead to invisibility... the elven rings sure don't. I wouldn't bet this ring had no particular role from the very begining.


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## PaigeSinclaire88 (Dec 16, 2016)

elfofthewoods said:


> In the hobbit, does gandalf know that Biblo has a ring, but just does not know that it is the ring of power?




I think that it isnt until the night of Bilbos party and departure from the shire/bag end that Gandalf finally admits to himself that it is indeed the ring of power. I think that before that he had a hunch and that maybe he didn't realize that Bilbo used the ring of power to disappear when he was facing Smaug. I do think since Tolkien had already been developing the history during the first WW that he perhaps didn't want to make it obvious to Gandalf as a way to maybe further the plot. If Gandalf was sure right off the bat there wouldnt have been as suspenseful.


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