# An Elf to battle Morgoth



## baraka (Jan 24, 2002)

If you could choose an elf to battle Morgoth, who would you choose?

I would choose Curufinwe, because he had the greatest hatred toward Morgoth, he was the only elf who had the passion to say the hell with the valar, i want revenge against Morgoth (Not literalilly but I think that was the thing he was trying to do) and he was a genius devising and making swords and armor.

Besides, he really wanted a piece of Melko. He would have done a better job of fighting him than his brother.


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## Lord Melkor (Jan 24, 2002)

No pathetic Elf will ever stand a chance against Melkor, King of Arda! Feanor had a great spirit, but Fingolfin`s combat prowess had no equal among Eldar! Feanor would most likely have less stamina problems than his brother, but his fury would make him make a mistake!


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## Tyaronumen (Jan 24, 2002)

Yes -- Fingolfin is obviously the elf of choice here... Feanor had a hot head and that doesn't make for good decisions in the heat of battle.

No need to mention that Fingolfin far exceeded Feanor in terms of martial skill. (Even though I've mentioned it anyhow.  )


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## Beleg Strongbow (Jan 25, 2002)

Fingolfin. But Turin kills Morgoth and he is totally kick ass!


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## baraka (Jan 25, 2002)

*Feanor*

Tyaronumen, I was wondering in what part of the Sil does it says that Fingolfin far exceeded Feanor in terms of martial skill. I have seen it written all over these boards and the only thing that i have remebered read in the sil was that Fingolfin was the most valiant son of Finwe.


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## Lord Melkor (Jan 25, 2002)

Don`t tell me you believe that a mortal could beat me?! This is a bunch of Valar propaganda!

And sorry for spelling mistakes I sometimes forget to check my posts.


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## baraka (Jan 25, 2002)

*Melkor*

Lord Melkor, he who arises in Might, the question is: An elf is mortal or inmortal, i thought they were inmortal.

If you were so powerful, why didn´t you kill all the Valar one at a time, begining with Manwe, Ulmo, Aule, etc.

If you are the mightiest being in ME, why was Tulkas able to beat you?

Were you more afraid of Feanor or Fingolfin.


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## Tyaronumen (Jan 25, 2002)

Baraka -- I'll have to dig it up for you, or maybe one of these other kindly souls will know the point where Fingolfin's martial superiority is clearly elaborated on.

The mere fact that Feanor was slain by Balrog's (beings of a lesser order by far than Morgoth -- the Most Powerful Being Other Than Iluvatar Period  ) and Fingolfin was defeated BY FEATURES OF THE LANDSCAPE (and not Morgoth himself, although I will grant that he caused these features to exist) is clear enough demonstration to me.


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## Telchar (Jan 25, 2002)

Melkor *was* the most powerfull among the Valar, but hes power deminished greatly during the first age..


> For as he grew in malice, and sent forth from himself the evil that he concieived in lies and creatures of wickedness, his power passed into them and was dispersed, and he himself became ever more earth-bound..
> Morgoths Ring p.133


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## Tyaronumen (Jan 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Telchar _
> *Melkor was the most powerfull among the Valar, but hes power deminished greatly during the first age..
> *



Yet nowhere is it given that somehow Morgoth was suddenly less mighty than his servants, the Balrogs. 

Actually, we are told that NONE of the Eldar or Atani are strong enough to defeat one of the Valar. Can't remember where that quote is either, but it may be in the section where the Doom of Mandos is told.


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## baraka (Jan 25, 2002)

*Balrog´s*



> _Originally posted by Tyaronumen _
> *Baraka -- I'll have to dig it up for you, or maybe one of these other kindly souls will know the point where Fingolfin's martial superiority is clearly elaborated on.
> 
> The mere fact that Feanor was slain by Balrog's (beings of a lesser order by far than Morgoth -- the Most Powerful Being Other Than Iluvatar Period  ) and Fingolfin was defeated BY FEATURES OF THE LANDSCAPE (and not Morgoth himself, although I will grant that he caused these features to exist) is clear enough demonstration to me. *



How many balrog´s, I don´t seem to remember? I think that sometimes when you are attacked by various lesser beings is more difficult than facing one more powerful, because you can concentrate all your attention to that being and not everyone. I just don´t see it clear enough.

Would Fingolfin have gone to ME without the deeds of Curufinwe and seek revenge upon his father. I don´t think so.


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## Telchar (Jan 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Tyaronumen _
> *
> 
> Yet nowhere is it given that somehow Morgoth was suddenly less mighty than his servants, the Balrogs.
> ...



You can't kill a spirit, and the Valar where spirits, so naturally, you can't kill them, but the bodily form they took may be destroyed, slain, injused, etc... And the difference between the powers of Melkor and the Balrogs where probably greater than we can imagine. The Balrogs where maiar, not valar...

IIRC Tolkien said that there were no more than 7 Balrogs in middle earth...


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## Tyaronumen (Jan 25, 2002)

*Re: Balrog´s*



> _Originally posted by baraka _
> *
> 
> How many balrog´s, I don´t seem to remember? I think that sometimes when you are attacked by various lesser beings is more difficult than facing one more powerful, because you can concentrate all your attention to that being and not everyone. I just don´t see it clear enough.
> ...



Yes -- I suppose it is possible for a billion ants to be more dangerous than one guy with a gun.

Actually, I'm not sure the # of Balrog's is specified... Feanor was slain by Gothmog tho...

And Fingolfin would've probably stayed in Valinor where he belonged and lived to a ripe old immortality.


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## Tyaronumen (Jan 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Telchar _
> *
> 
> You can't kill a spirit, and the Valar where spirits, so naturally, you can't kill them, but the bodily form they took may be destroyed, slain, injused, etc... And the difference between the powers of Melkor and the Balrogs where probably greater than we can imagine. The Balrogs where maiar, not valar...
> ...



Yeah -- I know that the Balrogs are Maiar and not Valar. That's why Fingolfin is clearly mightier than Feanor. Fingolfin holds his own against the most powerful and terrifying creature (with the possible exception of Ungoliant who even frightened Morgoth I believe) in all of Ea long enough to get in several wounds and give Morgoth a permanent limp.

Feanor gets whacked by lesser creatures. Sorta like getting killed by those billion ants as opposed to the guy with the gun. Nowhere near as impressive or noteworthy.


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## baraka (Jan 25, 2002)

*Re: Re: Balrog´s*



> _Originally posted by Tyaronumen _
> *
> 
> Yes -- I suppose it is possible for a billion ants to be more dangerous than one guy with a gun.
> ...



What about the death of his father, if your father were killed, I think you ought to do something that just sit in the sun. Shame on him. I think that is why Curufinwe was his favorite son.


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## Tyaronumen (Jan 25, 2002)

Yes, Baraka... if anything of that nature happened to my father, I would definitely do something about it.

However, that does not make it in and of itself correct.

And do not forget that Feanor was a real $*(^@* BEFORE he knew of the death of Finwe. He refused to give the Silmarills to Yavanna and thus save the Two Trees before Finwe was dead. His father's death is no excuse for his fell behavior.


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## baraka (Jan 25, 2002)

*Correct*



> _Originally posted by Tyaronumen _
> *Yes, Baraka... if anything of that nature happened to my father, I would definitely do something about it.
> 
> However, that does not make it in and of itself correct.
> ...



You are correct, the things that he did were inexcusable. But if it were not for him, we would have no silmarillion, no noldors in ME.

It´s so cool to have a board where you have bright people who can make a real good argument about such fascinating things like the silmarillion. From where I´m there´s not many people insterested in reading.

Yet, with all his flaws and pride, he was the most beloved by his father. Too bad they didn´t have a sparring match between Feanor and Fingolfin to see who was the best.


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## Lord Melkor (Jan 27, 2002)

Well isn`t it said that Eonwe was mightier in battle than some Valar? And why did I need Balrogs against Ungoliant? 
Also flying dragons were the greater force on Arda, no single Vala could defeat them, those were my trump card against armies of The West, as you see I haven`t wasted my power, I created servants whose combined power was greater than my own!


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## Thorondor (Jan 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Tyaronumen _
> *Fingolfin holds his own against the most powerful and terrifying creature (with the possible exception of Ungoliant who even frightened Morgoth I believe)*



Melkor was afraid of practically everyone important. He alone of all the Valar knew fear. He was a fraid of Ungoliant, Tulkas, Ulmo, Fingolfin, Turgon, Thingol, Melian, and he probably didn't like a certain King of the Eagles either.


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## Tyaronumen (Jan 29, 2002)

*laugh* Good point, Thorondor... but I think that Ungoliant, Tulkas and Fingolfin were the three who really did a number on Morgoth...


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## Grond (Jan 29, 2002)

I was there and on the day Morgoth faced his greatest fear. Morgoth was wearing his favorite white tennis shoes that suddenly turned yellow when he heard pounding on the door. Take a look at my sig. That says it all.


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## Thorondor (Jan 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Tyaronumen _
> **laugh* Good point, Thorondor... but I think that Ungoliant, Tulkas and Fingolfin were the three who really did a number on Morgoth... *



Yes, they were the ones that fought with him to really scare the crud out of him. The others were just a constent fear far off of what they could do to him. He was never at ease, always in doubt.


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## Duilin (Jan 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Telchar _
> *
> 
> You can't kill a spirit, and the Valar where spirits, so naturally, you can't kill them, but the bodily form they took may be destroyed, slain, injused, etc... And the difference between the powers of Melkor and the Balrogs where probably greater than we can imagine. The Balrogs where maiar, not valar...
> ...



I agree: first Tolkien thought they were a lot, infact Gondothlim killed a lot of Balrogs :
- 5 Tuor with Dramborleg
- 3 Ecthelion 
- +/- 40 king's warriors
- 1 Glorfindel

Later Tolkien wrote they were max 7, as U said.


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## Eärendil (Feb 1, 2002)

*An Elf to fight Morgoth*

I would have to choose Ernie the Keebler Elf, or the little elf that wanted to be a dentist in the, "Rudolph the red nosed reindeer" claymation movie.


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## baraka (Feb 5, 2002)

*Lord Melkor*

I know this is off the thread but do you think that Melkor was afraid of Manwe, Lord Melkor?


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## Lorien (Feb 6, 2002)

hey where is it said that Turin kills Morgoth in the end??
and to answer your question baraka of course melkor was scared of manwe....he was to sapped giving balrogs and dragons etc. the evilness of his spriit and his strength to be able to do any real damage to any other valar...


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## Lord Melkor (Feb 6, 2002)

Me afraid of Manwe! If I had a chance to fight Manwe one on one at the time I came to Arda he would be a toast and everyone would see who is the rightuf King of Arda! I am smart, and smart people know when it is best not to fight!


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## Beleg Strongbow (Feb 6, 2002)

High yáll but earlier i posted that i thought Finglofin would be mostdangerous 2 melkor. But i know changed my mind.1 on 1 i think Fingolfin has already has his go. And he didn't slay him although he stabbed him well. I think that if Melkor had the silmarils in the crown when he fought. If he fought against Feanor. His wrath would be so crazy that he would just slay him. He wouldnt have waited and slowly lost his stamina. He would have gone in for the kill and killed him (his form) and probably died as well.


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## Tyaronumen (Feb 7, 2002)

The idea that Fingolfin was panty-waisting it around with Morgoth is not reality. Fingolfin was filled with wrath because of the breaking of the Leaguer around Angband as well as the burning of Ard-Galen (if I recall the right battle  ) and was not "waiting around" and losing his stamina. He went toe to toe with one of the Valar and permanently crippled him. That's one hell of an accomplishment.


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## Grond (Feb 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Beleg Strongbow _
> *High yáll but earlier i posted that i thought Finglofin would be mostdangerous 2 melkor. But i know changed my mind.1 on 1 i think Fingolfin has already has his go. And he didn't slay him although he stabbed him well. I think that if Melkor had the silmarils in the crown when he fought. If he fought against Feanor. His wrath would be so crazy that he would just slay him. He wouldnt have waited and slowly lost his stamina. He would have gone in for the kill and killed him (his form) and probably died as well. *


Beleg, Feanor was too big of a sissy to even try to tangle with Melkor. Fingolfin rode to the gates of Angband with such anger and wrath that the servants of Melkor fled before his face. Feanor never had a fraction of the resolve, determination or righteousness shown by the great Fingolfin. Feanor was little more than a agitator and a betrayer. He betrayed the Valar, he betrayed his own people many times and was a slave to works of his own hand (silmarils). He sounds pretty hollow and weak to me.


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## Cian (Feb 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Lorien _
> hey where is it said that Turin kills Morgoth in the end??



That's a prophetic saying ... Tolkien would later write, regarding Túrin's prophetic fate, that he return from the dead and slay Ancalagon ~ as his last deed within the World-circles.


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## baraka (Feb 7, 2002)

*Feanor*



> _Originally posted by Grond _
> *Beleg, Feanor was too big of a sissy to even try to tangle with Melkor. Fingolfin rode to the gates of Angband with such anger and wrath that the servants of Melkor fled before his face. Feanor never had a fraction of the resolve, determination or righteousness shown by the great Fingolfin. Feanor was little more than a agitator and a betrayer. He betrayed the Valar, he betrayed his own people many times and was a slave to works of his own hand (silmarils). He sounds pretty hollow and weak to me. *



Grond, i can´t sit idle an let this post go. Feanor was a sissy to even tangle with Melkor is a total lie. He is the one that made the Noldor go to ME to search for him and his silmarils. Would Fingolfin had gone to ME without the actions of Feanor and battle Morgoth, i think not. Fingolfin had great righteousness but more determination than Feanor No. You said that he betrayed the Valar, (Weren´t the valar the ones that let Melkor free in the first place), he did in a way betray his people but couldn´t the Teleri lend him their ships to go to ME and then they would have returned to Arda with them?
Feanor hollow and weak is like saying that the sun does not shine.
I had read a passage in the Sil. (I will post it later). Finwe loved Feanor the most for a reason.
He was the mightest of the Eldar and had a great passion in him. He would have done everything in his power to battle Morgoth.


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## Grond (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: Feanor*



> _Originally posted by baraka _
> *Grond, i can´t sit idle an let this post go. Feanor was a sissy to even tangle with Melkor is a total lie. He is the one that made the Noldor go to ME to search for him and his silmarils. Would Fingolfin had gone to ME without the actions of Feanor and battle Morgoth, i think not. Fingolfin had great righteousness but more determination than Feanor No. You said that he betrayed the Valar, (Weren´t the valar the ones that let Melkor free in the first place), he did in a way betray his people but couldn´t the Teleri lend him their ships to go to ME and then they would have returned to Arda with them?
> Feanor hollow and weak is like saying that the sun does not shine.
> I had read a passage in the Sil. (I will post it later). Finwe loved Feanor the most for a reason.
> He was the mightest of the Eldar and had a great passion in him. He would have done everything in his power to battle Morgoth. *


You mean everything in his power to battle Morgoth, except to battle him. The lamest excuse for killing is the "why won't you lend me your ships" defense. That is lunacy at best. Feanor showed his true colors when he immediately refused to surrender the silmarils when asked by the Valar to restore the Two Trees. 

Feanor lost all of his greatness by his actions from the moment Melkor swept through and killed his father and stole the Silmarils. His "oath" and the subsequent kin-slaying, his abandonment of his kin to the ice crossing, his blatant attacks on anyone who even spoke of trying to win the silmarils illustrate that he was only slightly less evil than Melkor himself. His greatness was shown in the making of the Silmarils. His vileness included everything after. 

In fact, Feanor reminds me of two other characters in the Silmarillion. Melkor and Turin both suffered from an affliction that all of the good in Middle-earth could never overcome. The affliction all three suffered from is one that still causes more evil on our Earth than any other. That affliction is _*pride*_!


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## baraka (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: Re: Feanor*



> _Originally posted by Grond _
> *You mean everything in his power to battle Morgoth, except to battle him. The lamest excuse for killing is the "why won't you lend me your ships" defense. That is lunacy at best. Feanor showed his true colors when he immediately refused to surrender the silmarils when asked by the Valar to restore the Two Trees.
> 
> Feanor lost all of his greatness by his actions from the moment Melkor swept through and killed his father and stole the Silmarils. His "oath" and the subsequent kin-slaying, his abandonment of his kin to the ice crossing, his blatant attacks on anyone who even spoke of trying to win the silmarils illustrate that he was only slightly less evil than Melkor himself. His greatness was shown in the making of the Silmarils. His vileness included everything after.
> ...



I think that was pretty cool when he refused to give the Valar the Silmarils, (you told me to get away from Tuna for 12 years, to hell with you). I know it was a bad thing to do and wrong, but it was Feanor.

With everything you said above, i don´t think that hollow is a good word to define Feanor. He had an enormous passion that he wanted to get his silmarils back and to destroy Melkor. He would have done anything necessary. He made evil (yes). But he also made great good by just the fact that he made the Noldor go with him to ME and to serve as a shield to stop the evil or Morgoth in ME.


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