# Greek History - Some Musings



## Walter (Nov 10, 2004)

............. ...


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## Mrs. Maggott (Nov 10, 2004)

Frankly, with regard to Greek history, I find most interesting - and fascinating - that the civilization of Sparta which was unusual to the extreme "just happened" to exist at a point in time historically when that type of warrior culture was essential to stop the Persian advance into Hellas. True, the Spartans and their allies fell at the Gates of Fire, but they managed to distress and delay the Persians - despite their overwhelming force - until the Athenian navy could destroy the Persian supply lines which, of course, led to that Empire's ultimate defeat and retreat from Europe. Had this not happened, the entire history of Western Civilization would have been markedly different.

Yet, Sparta with its totally militaristic culture, was unique. Yes, other Greek _polis_ had militias, but Sparta _lived_ for war and its warrior class. Even its women were athletes, forswearing soft raiment and cosmetics allowing only their blooming health to adorn them. War to them was a way of life, their "vocation" and not merely something to which one resorted when threatened. Of course, eventually, the Spartan society passed into history - but it is very interesting that it rose at all, much less that it had arrived at its zenith when this ultimate threat appeared. Frankly, I don't think that any other Greek city-state or a combination thereof could have held the pass and inflicted the number of casualties upon the Persians as did Leonidas and his 300 Spartans. 

Of course, there were a total of 4,000 at the pass when the battle began representing allies from other Greek city-states who stood with the Spartans there to defend Hellas. And in the end, they were only defeated by a traitorous shepherd who led the Persians around the Spartans by a hidden mountain pass so that they were attacked from both front and rear. But the mere presence of the Spartans - who knew that they were doomed when they left to fight - steadied their allies and allowed them to stand against the overwhelming force of the Persian army.


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## Astaldo (Nov 10, 2004)

Maybe you misunderstood Walter but I never said that the "Greek Civilization" started with Philip, or at least this was not my intend. Athens, Sparta, Thebes, Crete had greta civilization as well. Athens "invented" Democracy many years before Alexander. But I did not refer to this cities/nations because they had not any connection with Macedonia. 

As for the "Dark Ages" now. This is true these cities/nations were in battle. For example Athens and Sparta were always fighting cities. (I was always with Sparta  ). In that time Philip united great parts of North Greece and conqured most of Greece. He had great armies who all feared. When he was assassined his son Alexander took the kingship in 337 B.C. when he was 19 years old! Then he swore to free all Greek people startins in the coast of Asia in today Turkey. Then he was marching on and on beating the one army after the other. He respected peoples believes as religion and culture. After many battles he arrived to today India but his men would not follow him further. They were very tired. Finally he died in Babylon, of fever, in 323 B.C. in the age of 33! He became the ruler of the known world in such a young age. That's why we are proud of him and his achievements.

About Troy you are right. All this happened due to money and the passage to the Black Sea. I'm pretty sure you know the true story. In the movie Troy most of the facts are not real. In this part of the history you could call Greeks "Barbarians". They went there to conquer Troy. But the Troyans were Greek people too. The legend says that a few people who survived the destroy of Troy went to Italy and founded Rome.


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## Mrs. Maggott (Nov 10, 2004)

Tsk, tsk! Everyone knows that the barbarian is always the _other_ guy!


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## Walter (Nov 10, 2004)

Astaldo said:


> The legend says that a few people who survived the destroy of Troy went to Italy and founded Rome.


Yes, and Snorri, in his Prologue, says that another few went to Germany and became their gods... 

...but eventually ... it's all Greek to me... 

---

LOL, Mrs.M, how very true....


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## joxy (Nov 10, 2004)

It's confusing having to reply to a posting in one thread with a posting in another!
Was that joke about "Bull-Head" intended to suggest that his name would now be rendered in Slavic, rather than in Greek?


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## Astaldo (Nov 10, 2004)

Mrs. Maggott said:


> Tsk, tsk! Everyone knows that the barbarian is always the _other_ guy!


In that occasion I meant the guys who invaded Troy were Barbarians.



joxy said:


> Was that joke about "Bull-Head" intended to suggest that his name would now be rendered in Slavic, rather than in Greek?


That's right.


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## Mrs. Maggott (Nov 10, 2004)

Now, now! There were a lot of very intelligent and "civilized" Greeks in that attacking force, nor did they attack for nothing. If Homer is to be believed, they stayed at that dratted war for 10 years! Frankly, what sea port is worth that?? In that time you could _build_ one, for heaven's sake!

I would guess that some mortal insult had taken place. Helen is blamed, but who knows? Wars have been fought for lesser insults than to be a "guest" in a man's home and run off with his wife! They took hospitality seriously those days both the duties of the host _and_ the guest! When you have a conflict that lasts that long, it means that the Greeks could not give up the assault without losing too much "face".


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## Astaldo (Nov 10, 2004)

Maybe you are right. 10 years is a longperiod for a war.
About the traitor in Thermopiles he was Efialtis which means nightmare.


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## Mrs. Maggott (Nov 10, 2004)

Isn't it interesting how many disasters are brought about by treachery? LOTR is _full_ of important people betraying those who trusted in them. In the end, such treason can be overcome, but it is always a terrible thing when one is betrayed by a friend or at least someone who should have been on "your side".


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## Astaldo (Nov 10, 2004)

Betrayal is a terrible thing. Worst than everything else.


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## Walter (Nov 10, 2004)

Mrs. Maggott said:


> If Homer is to be believed, they stayed at that dratted war for 10 years! Frankly, what sea port is worth that?? In that time you could _build_ one, for heaven's sake!


The problem was not so much the sea port of Troy and building anotherone wouldn't have solved the problem. The currently most likely theory among scholars is, that the problem was Troy and its fleet which controlled the Dardanelles (the narrow strait from the Aegean sea into the Sea of Marmara) and with that the sea trade with the wealthy areas around the Black Sea. And that not only hindered the sea-trade of the Greek peoples, but probably also their attempts to establish colonies at the shores around the Black Sea, just like they had done it at the coastal reagion in Asia Minor and which have - not for the least part - responsible for the wealth of the Greeks during the Bronze age.

Helen, if there is indeed a grain of truth in that part of Homer's elaborations, in that case was probably not much more than an excuse...


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## Astaldo (Nov 10, 2004)

Did you know that Troy was a city of 7 levels, so very difficult to take it? Maybe this is where Prof. Tolkien inspired Minas Tirith.

BTW walter why didn't you continued in the other thread. It is not very similar what we say know but I think we could continue there. Anyway it's your thread.


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## Walter (Nov 10, 2004)

Could you explain the 7 levels statement, please? 

The other thread - like all political and religious threads - has been closed today. But anyway, this is not "my thread", it belongs to all of us TTF members


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## Lhunithiliel (Nov 11, 2004)

Astaldo said:


> But the Troyans were Greek people too.


Are you sure?
I wonder why had the Greeks then gone to war against Troy? Wouldn't this be a bit strange? Are you saying it was a civil war? 
I personally wouldn't say Trojans were Greek or that Troy was a part of the then existing Greek state. 
Here's bit of info:


> Finding Troy
> 
> Finding Troy proved difficult, however, and the Greek fleet at first landed in Mysia. According to Herodotus, the Greeks were under the impression that Helen had been taken by the Teuthranians (Teucrians), and though the Teuthranians denied such allegations, the Greeks layed siege to the city (Herodotus, Bk. II.118). The Greeks ultimately prevailed, but suffered heavy casualties at the hands of Telephus, king of the Teuthranians, and, at the end, were still without Helen. Telephus, in the course of the war, was wounded by Achilles.
> With no where else to turn, the Greeks returned home.


taken from http://www.stanford.edu/~plomio/history.html

As for real histroy, here's sth. interesting to read: 
http://www.archaeology.org/0405/etc/troy.html

In any case, Trojans were Asians. 
Otherwise, I guess, Snorri (Eddas) would not call _Aesir_ those people that came to Northern Europe from the South and became Gods, but ... perhaps _Greasir_ .. or sth alike


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## Arvedui (Nov 11, 2004)

Astaldo said:


> Did you know that Troy was a city of 7 levels, so very difficult to take it? Maybe this is where Prof. Tolkien inspired Minas Tirith.
> 
> BTW walter why didn't you continued in the other thread. It is not very similar what we say know but I think we could continue there. Anyway it's your thread.


All religious and political threads have been closed in compliance with the written command of Webmaster in the thread Political and Religious Discusions 
As long as this thread does not venture into politics, but remains historical, it will remain open.

Webmaster's policy will be enforced with Taleban-like rule...


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## Astaldo (Nov 11, 2004)

Walter said:


> Could you explain the 7 levels statement, please?


In history books it is refered that Troy was build on hills and it had 7 levels. It was not exactly like PJ's Minas Tirith but imagine a city having walls some houses and the again walls and...



Lhunithiliel said:


> Are you sure?
> I wonder why had the Greeks then gone to war against Troy? Wouldn't this be a bit strange? Are you saying it was a civil war?


The Troynas were a Greek "tribe" that inhabited in Troy. It was some kind of a civil war. In this ages there was a united Greece as it is now but each city was a "nation". So it isn't exactly a civil war. If Troyand were Asians who do you explain their names which were Greek like Paris, Hector, Priamos etc?


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## DGoeij (Nov 12, 2004)

Astaldo said:


> The Troynas were a Greek "tribe" that inhabited in Troy. It was some kind of a civil war. In this ages there was a united Greece as it is now but each city was a "nation". So it isn't exactly a civil war. If Troyand were Asians who do you explain their names which were Greek like Paris, Hector, Priamos etc?



The more I usually read or find out otherwise about history, is that the picture is never clear. More likely the Troyan ruling class picked up some of the Greek language during their trade with the Greeks, apart from the possibility that the Troyan population was mingled anyway. Noting unsusual for a large city that dominates trade routes. Or Homer simply gave them Greek sounding names, becasue he disliked the sound of the ' original' names.

I mean, did the siege really last 10 years? Was the Greek army large enough to completely cut off Troy from the outside world? Questions that have always roamed my mind since I started reading about this and nothing I have learned so far supplies me with conclusive answers. 
Not that I get frustrated, asking questions and attempting to find the answers is usually more fun that actually finding them.


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## Mrs. Maggott (Nov 12, 2004)

I seriously doubt that a siege as described by Homer went on for ten years! Most probably, it was an on-again-off-again thing with the Greeks coming and going until the city was taken. However, they were hardly "cut off"! They were, after all, on the beaches which meant that they could have been supplied by sea for as long as they chose to remain! However, one doubts that all of those kings were going to spend 10 years away from their own kingdoms and give various ambitious relatives the opportunity to "better" themselves!

Interestingly enough, however, the 7 years it took Odysseus to return to Ithica after the sack of Troy (according to Homer, of course) is, in Western law, the period of time after which a person who has "disappeared" may legally be declared "dead"! So much for those who say that classical literature has no bearing on the modern world!


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## DGoeij (Nov 12, 2004)

Mrs. Maggott said:


> I seriously doubt that a siege as described by Homer went on for ten years! Most probably, it was an on-again-off-again thing with the Greeks coming and going until the city was taken. However, they were hardly "cut off"! They were, after all, on the beaches which meant that they could have been supplied by sea for as long as they chose to remain! However, one doubts that all of those kings were going to spend 10 years away from their own kingdoms and give various ambitious relatives the opportunity to "better" themselves!



Indeed. I'm currently reading about the Crusades and nearly every King or lesser noble that embarked on such a yourney East could almost be certain that the moment he turned his back, his kingdom or estate was targeted by his greedy neighbours. Holy Quest or not  
But considering the 'cut off', I was referring to Troy, which I might have stated somewhat unclear. I could hardly imagine the Greek army being capable of both fighting the Troyan army _and_ dividing themselves up to cover and block all approaches to the city. 



> Interestingly enough, however, the 7 years it took Odysseus to return to Ithica after the sack of Troy (according to Homer, of course) is, in Western law, the period of time after which a person who has "disappeared" may legally be declared "dead"! So much for those who say that classical literature has no bearing on the modern world!



To quote (well, not precisely) Terry Pratchett on that: 'Some man in a stuffy room writes a book and next thing you know, a million people die'
It would take me a while to find the proper time period in Dutch Law, but I wouldn't be suprised if that happened to be 7 years as well.


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## Mrs. Maggott (Nov 12, 2004)

I don't know. It would depend upon how isolated Troy was. You know, a walled city can be as much of a trap as a defense. If they couldn't get out in large numbers to bring in supplies then the Greeks wouldn't have had too much of a problem "policing" the place. I don't know how they fed the city. They may have done so by sea rather than live off local arable land and that would have been a real problem with the Greeks on their doorstep! Even if small contingents could have gotten out of the city, bringing in food stuffs would not have been easy to do with a hostile army encamped around the walls! However, obviously they weren't "starved out". 

In fact, it was the Greeks who started to grow tired of the whole thing. Troy was still holding out very nicely, thanks. Only wiley Odysseus' little "giftie" proved to be the key to the city's downfall. If the Trojans had decided to sacrifice the thing by setting it alight on the beach - well..... But they couldn't resist bringing their little (big) trophy into the city in order to gloat! As the old saying goes, "Beware of Greeks bearing gifts!" Ah, those "old sayings"! Full of wisdom, they are - as Yoda would say!


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## joxy (Nov 12, 2004)

Arvedui said:


> ....Taleban-like rule...


There's nothing amusing about the Taliban.



Mrs Maggott said:


> ....As the old saying goes, "Beware of Greeks bearing gifts!"


Only the Romans didn't call them Greeks in that expression, did they? That's a clue to who was, and who wasn't, Greek.


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## Astaldo (Nov 12, 2004)

Odyssey lasted for then years and not seven (according to Homer  ).

As for the ten-year war I agree with you. The war started and stopped a lot of times and then Odysseus though about the Troyan Horse. Very clever guy indeed. I am also sure that the Troyans had secret ways to get out of the city to bring supplies. One of this was the way that the last srvivors of Troy took and went to Italy.



joxy said:


> Only the Romans didn't call them Greeks in that expression, did they? That's a clue to who was, and who wasn't, Greek.


The greek saying and the original is this: 

"Φοβού τους Δαναούς, και δώρα φέροντες"

which means: Beware Danaous*, bearing gifts.

*Danai= Another name of Geeks given by Danao, King of Achei


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## Mrs. Maggott (Nov 12, 2004)

Astaldo said:


> Odyssey lasted for then years and not seven (according to Homer  ).


I know, in fact I said as much in my post. However, Homer's tale of Odysseus' homeward journey (The Odyssey) related that it took the Greek Admiral _7 years to get home_. 

This means that the King of Ithica was away from home for a total of _17 years_! Talk about "dirty stayout!"


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## Astaldo (Nov 12, 2004)

That's why so many guys went to marry Penelope.


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## Arvedui (Nov 13, 2004)

joxy said:


> There's nothing amusing about the Taliban.


Yes, there is.
But that is not the point here, is it? The point is that the "No Politics, No Religion" rule will be enforced. With a heavy hand, if that is better.


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## Mrs. Maggott (Nov 14, 2004)

For those interested in Greek history, I have just finished a very interesting and wonderful paperback book entitled "Gates of Fire, an Epic Novel of the Battle of Thermopylae" by Steven Pressfield (the author of The Legend of Bagger Vance). It is, as they say, "historical fiction" and written I believe in 1998 or 99 - or at least the paperback version came out in 1999. It received excellent reviews from the New Yorker and the Kirkus Reviews. The book is published by Bantam Books and for those who find great moments of history to be of interest even when they are presented in fictional form while retaining historical accuracy, I recommend this book most highly.

It is of no little import to see what others in the past have been willing to do to protect liberty (for that is what the Spartans and their allies were defending) in these days of apathy and appeasement.


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## Astaldo (Nov 14, 2004)

The story of Leonidas and his 300 is just great.


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## Walter (Nov 16, 2004)

Astaldo said:


> In history books it is refered that Troy was build on hills and it had 7 levels. It was not exactly like PJ's Minas Tirith but imagine a city having walls some houses and the again walls and...


I'm not sure you've got that right. None of reconstructions of the Troy of the "Trojan war" shows that. The 7 levels you have read of are - most probably - the archaeological levels of the city, of which the level which has been destroyed in the "Trojan war" is VIIa.



Astaldo said:


> The Troynas were a Greek "tribe" that inhabited in Troy. It was some kind of a civil war.


Do you have anything - as of historical, archaeological or other scientifical proof - to back up this claim? What exactly do you call "Greek" in the 2nd millennium BCE?


> The greek saying and the original is this:
> 
> "Φοβού τους Δαναούς, και δώρα φέροντες"
> 
> which means: Beware Danaous*, bearing gifts.


Another mistake, maybe? To the best of my knowledge the origin is Latin and the saying goes _"Quidquid id est, timeo Danaos et dona ferentes..."_ (maybe even _"...dona ferentis"_), and it is from Vergil's Aeneid (2,49)...


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## Astaldo (Nov 16, 2004)

1)About the 7 levels you may be right I am not so sure about this. But I will try to find something.

2)I will also post some proof the Troyans were Greek. By Greek, I name all those who were speaking the Greek language had the same religion and had the same customs, habits, etc.

3)I meant the original for Greece (I didn't phrase it correctly). I didn't know the Latin so I wrote the Greek.

Anyway I will post some sources about what you asked.


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## Walter (Nov 18, 2004)

Astaldo said:


> Anyway I will post some sources about what you asked.


Please do 



Astaldo said:


> 2)I will also post some proof the Troyans were Greek. By Greek, I name all those who were speaking the Greek language had the same religion and had the same customs, habits, etc.


Taking into consideration that archaeologists, historians and philologists are still arguing the issue, this might prove more difficult than you seem to expect. However, I am curious what you will come up with...


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## Astaldo (Nov 18, 2004)

Walter said:


> Please do


As soon as possible



Walter said:


> Taking into consideration that archaeologists, historians and philologists are still arguing the issue, this might prove more difficult than you seem to expect. However, I am curious what you will come up with...


I am curious too.


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## joxy (Nov 18, 2004)

<On the mound of Hissarlik, the following successive settlements have been determined:
Troy I, an early settlement with a wall built of small stones and clay, its date being perhaps about 3000 bc;
Troy II, a prehistoric fortress, with strong ramparts, a palace, and houses, dating from the 3rd millennium bc;
Troy III (the level in which “Priam's Treasure” was found),
IV, and V, prehistoric villages successively built on the debris of Troy II during the period from 2300 to 2000 bc;
Troy VI, a fortress, including an area larger than any of the preceding settlements, with huge walls, towers, gates, and houses dating from 1900 to 1300 bc or later;
Troy VIIA, a reconstruction of Troy VI, built in the later part of this period after the city had been destroyed by an earthquake;
Troy VIIB and VIII, Greek villages, of simple stone houses, dating from about 1100 bc to the 1st century bc;
and Troy IX, the acropolis of the Graeco-Roman city of Ilion, or New Ilion, with a temple of Athena, public buildings, and a large theatre, and existing from the 1st century bc to about ad 500.>


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