# Elrond - of the Noldor or Teleri?



## redline2200

It seems that once the Elves got so far in their geneologies, it was no longer so clear as to who was of which clan (with all the mixing and inter-marrying going on). However, was it ever explicitely stated to which Elrond belonged? On his father's side, there is certainly much Noldorin blood (but also some of the Teleri), and on his mother's side more Telerin blood. Is there any concensus or has anyone else ever thought about this question?


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## Ithrynluin

It seems like the Elves were very patriarchal when it came to this aspect of their society. 

Take Galadriel for example. She is referred to as a Noldo, even though she is only 25% Noldorin, 25% Vanyarin, 50% Telerin, obviously because her father's side of the family was Noldorin, and the male line was dominant.

Elrond's blood was even more "diluted", so if he thought of himself as belonging to any particular elven kind at all, I guess he must have been thought of as a Noldo, since he too is ultimately an elf of the Finwëan line. It's difficult to say, though, because his male elven line of descent is "broken" when you trace his descendants back to Tuor (a man) and Idril (a female elf).

This is all just off the top of my head, someone more knowledgeable might come along and provide a better answer. Interesting question, though!


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## Confusticated

I think that as a half-elf Elrond was not considered to belong to any clan. But in addition to what Ithrynluin said, I would say that even _culturally_ (not racially) Elrond was even mixed between the Noldor and Teleri. _But_, considering where we has born, who he was raised by and where and ended up spending most of his years in Middle-earth/ company he kept... Imlandris (Noldor lived here & Noldor type place all around), we might decide which group he better fits into.

Considering all of that I would say he fitted better culturally among the Noldor. And his position as loremaster is one found most often among the Noldor (Rumil the Noldo & Pengolodh with at least a Noldorin father - some of the most famed). As opposed to a great singer or mariner which would fit more into the Telerin ways.


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## Thorin

I was under the impression that Elrond was considered Noldor even though it was 4 generations on either side from Finwe and Thingol. Also, Elwing also had human blood in her from Beren's side once removed, however, from Earendil with Tuor.

That would mean that the paternal side might be the deciding factor in such a mixed up case as Elrond.


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## Master of maps

eenie, meenie, miney, moe.......
i choose the noldor!!!


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## Curufin

When I try to classify elves myself (for whatever reason) I usually put the Peredhel in a class by themselves; as not belonging to any particular 'race'. I think one of the special things about the Peredhel is that they are, if you will, a composite of all the different races of the Elves (and more).

Elrond is, for instance, 37.5% human, 31.25% Sindarin, 21.875% Ñoldor, 6.25% Maiar, and 3.125% Vanyar (assuming that Anairë and Elenwë were both full-blooded Ñoldor and that Nimloth was full-blooded Sindar). So Elrond is a little bit of everything (literally), but a majority of nothing. 

And has been already stated, Elrond's paternal line has been broken. Eärendil-->*Idril*-->Turgon-->Fingolfin. 

So I think it's best just to classify the Peredhel as different entirely.


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## Elf of cave

I agree with Curufin about classifying the half-elves as a separate race, which is supported by Aragorn in RotK: 



> 'Would that Elrond were here, for he is the eldest of all our race, and has the greater power.'



But in The Problem of Ros (PoME) it is noted that Elrond preferred to reckon his lineage to Thingol and consequently the Teleri.


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## Illuin

Hi,
Good Question; and there is a clear answer. Elrond being designated as “Half-elven” is kind of a misnomer. The father of Elrond was _Earendil_ and his mother was _Elwing_. Earendil was Half-elven: his mother* Idril* was an *Elf* and his father _*Tuor*_ was a _*Man*_. Elwing's mother Nimloth was an Elf and her father _*Dior*_ was the son of *Beren *- a *Man*; and *Luthien* - the daughter of an* Elf* and a* Maia* (Melian). So Elrond was very special. He was of *Men; Maiar* (divine being); and *Elves*. His Elf genealogy was not pure Noldor and Teleri either. His Elf pedigree through his mother Elwing is Teleri (descendent of Thingol)… and through his father Earendil, is not just Noldor because Elrond’s great-great-great grandmother on his father’s side was *Indis* of the *Vanyar*, who was second wife to Finwe, high king of the Noldor. So Elrond was indeed very extraordinary…… *Man; Maiar*; and *Elf* (of _Noldor, Teleri_, and _Vanyar_). As Tolkien said in Quenta Silmarillion; 

_*"And from these brethren alone*_ [twins Elrond and Elros]_ *has come among Men the* *blood of the Firstborn and a strain of the spirits divine*_[Maiar]_ *that were before Arda;"*_ [inserts mine]

Hope that helps.


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## Confusticated

> But in The Problem of Ros (PoME) it is noted that Elrond preferred to reckon his lineage to Thingol and consequently the Teleri.



I have forgot all about that. Maybe in the cases of an ancestor of outstanding importance, that line would often supercede the male blood line? At least in the case of men or the half-elven?

Either that or he didn't want to trace back far enough to share a great-gramndpa with his wife.

All the same, I still maintain that he was culturally more like the Noldor.


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## Elf of cave

> I have forgot all about that. Maybe in the cases of an ancestor of outstanding importance, that line would often supercede the male blood line? At least in the case of men or the half-elven?



It just says in the note that Elrond preferred Thingol's line because the Teleri were not under the ban that the Valar had laid on the Exiles. So it seems to be a free choice.



> Either that or he didn't want to trace back far enough to share a great-gramndpa with his wife.



Which is also a possibility

But if you do look at Elrond’s genealogy, he is the fifth generation from Finwë and only fourth from Thingol. And if you look at Curufin’s very detailed calculation Elrond have more Telerin blood than Noldorin. 

I personally find it difficult to use the whole thing with male lines as a general rule, because for some strange reason there are exceptions (especially if you look at the High Kingship). I think those elves that could trace their lines to more than one culture/clan, decided which culture they wanted to be counted among based on their nature. Galadriel, for instance, though she has more Telerin blood has all the characteristics that define the Noldor. 

And I agree with you, Nóm, that Elrond’s character seems to have many Noldorin traits.


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## Thorin

Elf of cave said:


> Galadriel, for instance, though she has more Telerin blood has all the characteristics that define the Noldor.



Bah! Lowering the Queen of Middle Earth from a Noldor to a lowly Teleri! Shore dwellers! Ship builders! Aimless wanderers! 

Actually, Galadriel had more Noldor. Her grandfather Finwe was Noldor and her grandmother Indis was Vanyar. Only her mother Earwen was Teleri.

Hence Teleri was the least of her genes.


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## Ithrynluin

Thorin said:


> Actually, Galadriel had more Noldor. Her grandfather Finwe was Noldor and her grandmother Indis was Vanyar. Only her mother Earwen was Teleri.
> 
> Hence Teleri was the least of her genes.



Look ma, some more of that shrewd Great Eagles' logic! 

From Earwen, Galadriel gets 50% Telerin blood. From Finarfin, she gets 25% Noldorin and 25% Vanyarin blood. Even if by some stretch of the imagination you want to discount her Vanyarin heritage due to it coming from a female elf, you'd still get a Galadriel who's just as Telerin as she is Noldorin.


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## Thorin

Ithrynluin said:


> Look ma, some more of that shrewd Great Eagles' logic!
> 
> From Earwen, Galadriel gets 50% Telerin blood. From Finarfin, she gets 25% Noldorin and 25% Vanyarin blood. Even if by some stretch of the imagination you want to discount her Vanyarin heritage due to it coming from a female elf, you'd still get a Galadriel who's just as Telerin as she is Noldorin.



I guess our math is different. I see Galadriel coming from a full blooded Vanyar and a full blooded Noldor in her paternal grandparents...to me this trumps her full Teleri maternel grandparents in status of elves. 3 of her direct ancestors come from Noldorin and Vanya blood. Only 1 of them comes from Teleri.

Her heritage within the Teleri is less than in the other two. At the least, she would only be half Teleri but other half Vanya and Noldor. Just because one of the three is less diluted, that doesn't make her any less of the other two and more of the one as far as her status goes...perhaps from a technical percentage in blood ration, yes.

Any my Great Eagle logic is impeccable!


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## Turgon

One of Galadriel's grandparents is Noldo, one Vanya, and two Teleri. That makes her half Teleri, a quarter Noldor and and a quarter Vanyar. She also married one of the Teleri - so I don't think that she herself was ashamed of her heritage at all. 

Finwe - Indis . . . . . . . Olwe - Teleri X

- -Finarfin- - - - - - - - - Earwen- - 

. . . . . . . . . Galadriel. . . . . . . . . . .

One and half Noldor on one side - three Teleri one the other. In that regard she has twice as many Teleri ancestors...


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## Snaga

Surely the only correct answer here is that Elrond was probably wiser than to get too much into the issue?

Clearly, he and indeed many of the elves were not purely of one group or another. As middle-earth grew older, they progressively intermingled. The only distinction that appears to be greatly relevant by the time of the War of the Ring is between 'High Elves' - whose heritage is somehow back those who went to the West - and 'Wood Elves' - who's heritage is not. And there is mostly just a recognition that the High Elves have the greater gifts, and no quarrel between them.

I think Elrond would probably know better than to shout "I am a _______ " since those in his charge were of all kinds of elves, intermingled.

This intermingling was I believe of great help to the elves in the latter days, for though in all other ways, after the First Age they were diminuished, they were not ever again divided.


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## Thorin

Turgon said:


> One of Galadriel's grandparents is Noldo, one Vanya, and two Teleri. That makes her half Teleri, a quarter Noldor and and a quarter Vanyar. She also married one of the Teleri - so I don't think that she herself was ashamed of her heritage at all.
> 
> Finwe - Indis . . . . . . . Olwe - Teleri X
> 
> - -Finarfin- - - - - - - - - Earwen- -
> 
> . . . . . . . . . Galadriel. . . . . . . . . . .
> 
> One and half Noldor on one side - three Teleri one the other. In that regard she has twice as many Teleri ancestors...




So then, why would Tolkien label her as one of the high Noldor then?

There is the ultimate question. Theoretically, she had just as much Vanya as Noldor in her for her father wasn't full Noldor, only her grandfather. And yet, she is considered Noldor.

It would seem that in rank, the Vanya and Noldor trumps her Teleri heritage. Which is why I say according to blood she is more Teleri, but her rank is as much both Noldor and Vanya together as Teleri.


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## Turgon

Cultural heritage perhaps? Personality? Of my grandparents - two were Irish, one was Welsh and one was English. Yet being born and raised in England I consider myself an Englishman. It doesn't mean I'm not proud of my other roots and certainly being English doesn't some how trump being Irish or Welsh. It's just how things ended up.


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## redline2200

Snaga said:


> Surely the only correct answer here is that Elrond was probably wiser than to get too much into the issue?
> 
> Clearly, he and indeed many of the elves were not purely of one group or another. As middle-earth grew older, they progressively intermingled. The only distinction that appears to be greatly relevant by the time of the War of the Ring is between 'High Elves' - whose heritage is somehow back those who went to the West - and 'Wood Elves' - who's heritage is not. And there is mostly just a recognition that the High Elves have the greater gifts, and no quarrel between them.
> 
> I think Elrond would probably know better than to shout "I am a _______ " since those in his charge were of all kinds of elves, intermingled.
> 
> This intermingling was I believe of great help to the elves in the latter days, for though in all other ways, after the First Age they were diminuished, they were not ever again divided.



I think that is a marvellous answer to the question and I agree!

And as far as Galadriel is concerned, I agree that she clearly has more Teleri blood than anything, but that doesn't mean she can't be considered one of the Noldor. Blood is not everything. 
For example, if two Spaniards marry and move to France and have a child in France, the child will grow up speaking French (as well as Spanish certainly) and be completely exposed to French culture. Although the child will have powerful Spanish roots and links, it could be very possible (in fact, even likely) that the child will grow up thinking himself French.
Although as far as blood is concerned Galadriel would fall most heavily into the "Teleri" group, she is without question one of the Noldor.....at least in my opinion .


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## Mimzy

I always thought of him as Noldor, though I'm pretty sure by percentage he was actually more Teleri. Same issue with Galadriel. Though personally I think Galadriel considered herself equally Noldor and Teleri - remember in Alqualonde she fought on the Teleri's side.


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## Mimzy

I also wonder if maybe Earwen's mother was Noldorin, probably not but hey it's possible, the royal families of Elves seemed to cross ethnic lines a lot.


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## Tsagadar

I think that the only "pure" Noldor of the Royal family left alive in Middle Earth is Maglor son of Feanor. Quite interesting to notice that actually... I guess it would be correct to say that Feanor was the essence of a Noldorin being, and his line is was the purest in that aspect.
I think that Tolkien wants to say that mingling brings better offsprings (and thus the half-elves are the ones to bring salvation). Might be a bit like the mingling of the lights.
Although, of course he's a bit ambivalent on this matter - only the mingling of the great houses seem to be good.

Nevertheless, I'd like to strengthen a bit the Noldor side of Elrond from some aspects.
First - considering that Feanor's line was cut at Celebrimbor (a very Noldorish charcter) and the Fingolfin's wife (Turgon's mother) is pretty unknown for some reason, that kind of makes his descendants more Noldor than the rest, together with the fact that his line became the ruling line. And so, by belonging to that line Elrond is slightly more Noldor.
It Does seem like the father, however, as was mentioned here, dictates the son's affiliation and Earendil's father Tuor was a man. But it is said of him: "But in after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor whom he loved; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men". It might not be "true", and only something told in songs, but I think that in this matter it can be of some significance.

I agree with what was said before that it shouldn't be such an important issue for him though


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## Bucky

lrond is, for instance, 37.5% human, 31.25% Sindarin, 21.875% Ñoldor, 6.25% Maiar, and 3.125% Vanyar

*Tolkien Geeks never cease to amaze me, lol :*rolleyes:*


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