# Orcs in Isengard



## cab345 (Feb 7, 2003)

Saruman had orcs and goblins to build his army of Uruk-Hai. Did he gather them in the misty mountains? Or was it a present from Sauron, only this seems a little bit unlogic, becouse then all those orcs had to move unseen trough te lands of Gondor and Rohan...

Please tell me...


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## Aulë (Feb 7, 2003)

He bred some of his own, and he "recruited" some from the Misty Mountains.


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## Gil-Galad (Feb 7, 2003)

They couldn't ne present from Sauron,because Sauron and Saruman are not allies.In the movie they are but actually it isn't so.Prabably Saruman took some goblins from the misty mountains and mixed them with the orcs he had.


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## Mithlond (Feb 8, 2003)

Well we know from Pippen looking into the Palantir, that Sauron and Saruman *did* speak with each other often for a time. but Sauron asks Pippen (mistaking him for one of Saruman's henchmen) why Saruman has not replied to his callings for so long.
So a sort of loose alliance is playing here i think, but nothing like the movie makes out, Saruman is never fully under Sauron's control.

However, i still think Saruman's orc's were not gifts from Sauron. 
They were acquired by some other means, the Misty Mountains sounds alright.


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## aragil (Feb 8, 2003)

> _From Appendix A, the House of Eorl_
> In 2989 Théodwyn married Éomund of Eastfold, the chief Marshal of the Mark. Her son Éomer was born in 2991, and her daughter Éowyn in 2995. At that time Sauron had arisen again, and the shadow of Mordor reached out to Rohan. Orcs began to raid in the eastern regions and slay or steal horses. Others also came down from the Misty Mountains, many being great uruks in the service of Saruman, though it was long before that was suspected.


 I've always thought of this as a description of where Saruman got his Orcs, specifically the stock he used to breed his Uruk-hai: he used uruks from the Misty Mountains. Notice, these uruks are described as being both from the Misty Mountains and in the service of Saruman. Saruman's breeding programs were only just getting started between 2991-2995:


> _From Unfinished Tales, the Palantirí_
> The Council seems to have been unaware, since for many years Isengard had been closely guarded, of what went on within its Ring. The use, and possibly special breeding, of Orcs was kept secret, and cannot have begun much before 2990 at earliest. The Orc-troops seem never to have been used beyond the territory of Isengard before the attack on Rohan. Had the Council known of this they would, of course, at once have realized that Saruman had become evil.


 These Orcs would have considered themselves Orcs of Sauron, as they were in origin 'his creatures':


> _From Appendix A, The Stewards_
> In the last years of Denethor I the race of uruks, black orcs of great strength, first appeared out of Mordor, and in 2475 they swept across Ithilien and took Osgiliath.
> 
> _From Appendix B, The Tale of Years_
> ...


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