# Mannish Powers



## Beleg (May 18, 2003)

It's obviously pretty difficult to face a Ringwraith or a Balrog. 
Throughout Tolkien's work we have never seen/heard of a fight between a Balrog or a Man (That is if you exclude BOLT, The Fall of Gondolin). 

My Question is that would some great Mannish Warrior, preferablly Turin/Hurin/Beren/Huor had been able to fight a Balrog or was it only the trait of elves that they could ward of the immence fear generated by the presence of Balrogs and fight Balrogs? 

And If Tuor/Turin/Beren/Hurin had been in place of Theoden on the fields of Pelanor, would they have been able to fight the Ringwraith in a better way, and if yes then why?


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## Eriol (May 18, 2003)

In FotR we see Aragorn and Boromir willing to fight the Balrog, as Legolas lets his arrow drop to the ground. I don't think the fear that Balrogs inspired on their opponents was confined (or more powerful) against men. Regular Elves also collapsed, while extrtaordinary men fought (or were willing to fight) against them. 

The same happens with the Ringwraiths. All men panicked before their assault, except Faramir (I am talking about his retreat from Osgiliath under Sauron's Darkness, in RotK).

I guess great men could face a Balrog -- or a Ringwraith -- as well as the greatest elves. I don't know if they could win the battle (especially against a Balrog), but I think they would not be overwhelmed by fear.


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## Elf-Archer755 (May 18, 2003)

Wow! Everything I was going to say, Eriol just said! Oh well!!


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## Ithrynluin (May 18, 2003)

I can't think of a good reason why Men wouldn't be able to (successfully) fight a Balrog. One thing that springs to mind is the fact that those Elves that fought the Balrogs - the Calaquendi - were in touch with the same divine light of the Blessed Realm as the Balrogs, which would perhaps give the Elves of Aman the advantage over Men.

As for Theoden...I suppose you mean would one of the great men of the First Age been able to control Snowmane's terror better and actually *get* to the battle with the Witch-King? I suppose so, but I doubt that the Witch-king would be slain by any Man.


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## Lantarion (May 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin_
> I can't think of a good reason why Men wouldn't be able to (successfully) fight a Balrog. One thing that springs to mind is the fact that those Elves that fought the Balrogs - the Calaquendi - were in touch with the same divine light of the Blessed Realm as the Balrogs, which would perhaps give the Elves of Aman the advantage over Men.


I have often wondered how on earth a Balrog could even be killed in the first place. Let's recap:
--Balrogs are spirits composed solely of fire and a strange shadow/darkness (perhaps alike to the Unlight of Ungoliant?).
--Men and Elves use mundane, material, and though deadly on one another practically useless of Valaraukar, as far as my deductive mind tells me (how on earth could metal 'kill' something that is not made of anything concrete?).

I can see how the Elves might have a slight advantage over them, especially the 'original' Calaquendi who had seen the light of the Two Trees.. But still I don't think it is realistic to say that just any old Elf or any old Man could defeat a Balrog, dispite people like Ecthelion.


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## Ithrynluin (May 18, 2003)

> I have often wondered how on earth a Balrog could even be killed in the first place. Let's recap:
> --Balrogs are spirits composed solely of fire and a strange shadow/darkness (perhaps alike to the Unlight of Ungoliant?).
> --Men and Elves use mundane, material, and though deadly on one another practically useless of Valaraukar, as far as my deductive mind tells me (how on earth could metal 'kill' something that is not made of anything concrete?).



I've always believed that the Balrogs do indeed have physical bodies. Wouldn't having a body be a necessity if they wanted to interact with the physical world? I would think so.

From _TLOTR; The White Rider_:



> I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin. Then darkness took me; and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell.



And if a Balrog's fall can smite a mountainside then surely there must be more to it than mere intangible 'shadow and flame'.


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## Zale (May 18, 2003)

If what Lantarion said is true, then by the converse how can Balrogs hurt people that exist only in the material world? Clearly this is not the case, so Balrogs must therefore have some corporeal elemnt to them.


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## Lantarion (May 19, 2003)

> _originally posted by Zale_
> If what Lantarion said is true, then by the converse how can Balrogs hurt people that exist only in the material world? Clearly this is not the case, so Balrogs must therefore have some corporeal elemnt to them.


Yes, the two mentioned 'elements' (fire and shadow) are 'concrete' in the sense that they can be perceived and sensed; seen, felt, perhaps even heard. And fire has caused a LOT of deaths in the world, so there is no issue there. 

As for the 'smiting of the mountainside', first of all that might have been written before Tolkien had made up his mind about the actual 'material' of the Valaraukar (although I don't think so ).
But maybe his Maia-spirit was killed by Olórin, and so his earthly form became more concrete and tied to Arda. That's one conception I have anyway.


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## Zale (May 20, 2003)

Isn't logic great? Now if only we could apply it to the question of wings...


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## Mahal (May 28, 2003)

I think that humans could not kill Balrogs. But the calaquendi could because they had seen the light of valinor and both the elves and the Balrogs were in a kind of spirit-world too.


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