# Is that an island in the Sea of Rhun (or did I spill coffee again)?



## Arthur_Vandelay (May 6, 2005)

On Christopher Tolkien's map of Middle-earth, produced for the publication of Unfinished Tales and which now accompanies current editions of LOTR, there appears to be "something" near the eastern shore of the Sea of Rhun--an island, marshes, or a wood, perhaps?

Can anybody shed any light on this?


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## Valandil (May 6, 2005)

I've just got the paperback - with the "Shelly Shapiro '88" in the corner.

All I see is the carrot-top thing '^' over the "u".

For a second there, I was afraid you had spilled coffee on MY copy!


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## Arvedui (May 6, 2005)

At least I cannot find it in any of Karen Wynn-Fonstad's maps.


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## Arthur_Vandelay (May 6, 2005)

It's actually in the body of water itself, and is roughly the size of the Trollshaws, give or take. To be specific, it's a conglomeration of little dots, but large enough not to be written off immediately as a typo (although it could very well be a typo). It appears in my copy of _Unfinished Tales_, as well as in every copy of _LOTR_ I have possessed (I used to read it frequently enough to wear it out)--and all of those copies have been editions published since Tolkien's centenary (c. 1992), and are thus accompanied by the _UT_ map and not the earlier map which you probably have, Valandil.

Has anyone else noticed it?

Responding to a request from Hobbit-Gal Rosie in this thread, I posted a map which I think is the one that CT altered and re-drafted for the publication of _Unfinished Tales_. That map--which I suspect is the one that accompanied pre-1992 editions of LOTR though I cannot confirm this--also features the strange conglomeration of dots to which I refer. Have a look: http://www.lord-of-the-rings.org/collections/maps/map6[1].jpg



Arvedui said:


> At least I cannot find it in any of Karen Wynn-Fonstad's maps.



I'm not posting from home at the moment, so I can't check her _Atlas_. But I'll take your word for it.


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## Gil-Galad (May 6, 2005)

Honestly I haven't noticed it....

And checking the link you provided it seems to me to be a kind of marshes or forest and marshes.....

No idea at all....


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## Arthur_Vandelay (May 6, 2005)

Thankyou all for your help. I'd post an image of the map in question, but cannot seem to find one online because it appears Tolkien estate lawyers have removed them from wherever they have appeared. In any case, in have a post 1992 HarperCollins/Allen and Unwin copy of _Lord of the Rings_, you have the map I'm talking about (Map 2). 



Gothmog said:


> And checking the link you provided it seems to me to be a kind of marshes or forest and marshes.....



Yep that's it. And it appears in the maps that accompany current editions of LOTR also.


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## Alatar (May 7, 2005)

It looks like a march to me(in UT).
Wait heres a theory is rhun is a shrunhe helcar(is that spelt right). the helcar's ilse of almaren could be this marchland.Just a thought.


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## Beorn (May 7, 2005)

See: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/7990/middle-e.gif

Look at the dots in the middle of the Sea of Rhun.


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## Barliman Butterbur (May 7, 2005)

Beorn said:


> See: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/7990/middle-e.gif
> 
> Look at the dots in the middle of the Sea of Rhun.



Shhhhhhhh...that's Middle-earth's _Area 51!_

(It's too bad that CT didn't provide a legend that showed what the dot pattern meant.)

Barley


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## Gil-Galad (May 7, 2005)

..it should be marshes.....


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## Barliman Butterbur (May 7, 2005)

Beorn said:


> Here....
> Deep Thought: This is a really long deep thought intended to test out whether or not I did the code right....so...yeah...I'm putting a lot of junk here.............lots of junk....junk...junk



Thanks Mike!   

Barley


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## e.Blackstar (May 11, 2005)

On my poster map there are no dots, but on my TTT fold-out one there are. My hypothisis is that they're just the effect of the lines that are going round in the sea...maybe just an effort at topography of some sort?


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## Ingwë (May 11, 2005)

I agree with you, e.Blackstar. And I think it may be _*undeep*_?


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## Barliman Butterbur (May 11, 2005)

For those who wish to do the digging, I offer

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q="sea+of+rhun"

In the meantime, I've contacted The Tolkien Society with our question. If I hear from them, I'll post their reply forthwith.

Barley


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## Barliman Butterbur (May 12, 2005)

Barliman Butterbur said:


> For those who wish to do the digging, I offer
> 
> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q="sea+of+rhun"
> 
> ...



And now I have indeed heard from the Society, with these preliminary results:

===============================

Hello Barliman

There's been some discussion and some results have come up. I'm trying
to check something right now - might take a few days.

There's no "canonical" explanation as far as I can see, only a
historical one ... it's still not clear if it's safe to take a boat
there 

Will contact you again when I find out anything more.

Helen at the Guestbook

===============================

More news coming soon! 

Barley


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## Arthur_Vandelay (May 12, 2005)

Thanks for following that up, Barley.


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## Ardamir the Blessed (May 13, 2005)

The 'forum' where Helen at the Tolkien Society is discussing this is not any more special than The Tolkien Forum. This is just one example of the fragmentation of the Tolkien fandom world - it would be much better to have just one big forum instead of having many competing ones whose communication and collaboration with each other is insufficient. But that will unfortunately never be realised, because people are too attached to their own forums.

Here is what Quickbeam of TheOneRing.net had to say about this matter.


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## Barliman Butterbur (May 13, 2005)

Ardamir the Blessed said:


> The 'forum' where Helen at the Tolkien Society is discussing this is not any more special than The Tolkien Forum. This is just one example of the fragmentation of the Tolkien fandom world - it would be much better to have just one big forum instead of having many competing ones whose communication and collaboration with each other is insufficient. But that will unfortunately never be realised, because people are too attached to their own forums.
> 
> Here is what Quickbeam of TheOneRing.net had to say about this matter.



If what you say is true, why should we give Quickbeam's assessment any more weight than what might come in from Helen or anyone else? And, what makes you say that all forums are equally unspecial?

Barley


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## Ardamir the Blessed (May 13, 2005)

I did not mean that what Helen will come up with will be any worse than Quickbeam's theories - we should not judge someone's research before they post it, but when you said that you asked the Tolkien Society, it seemed that you thought that they, if anyone, can answer this question. I am not sure if the people at the Tolkien Society are any more knowledgeable about Tolkien on average than we are, and anyway, the people with whom Helen is discussing this right now are not members of the Tolkien Society, but people on a Tolkien mail list, 'regular' members of a Tolkien forum like we are. I got the link I posted from there, and when Helen replies to you, it is quite likely that she also will provide you with the link, or the information it contains.

What I am trying to say that these commmunication problems that reside in the Tolkien fandom world, just because we are so fragmented, are restrictive to our own work and research. If someone on a Tolkien message board comes up with a wonderful idea, usually only members of that board will be aware of it. A few years later someone at another board might come up with the same idea, but quite needlessly, since it already had been done earlier. Quickbeam posted his theories on this question in February 2002. *We are inventing the 'wheel' over and over again* (though what we are dealing with is more avanced than the wheel). Imagine if the academic world had these problems in the same degree, do you think that scientific development would have reached as far?


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## Arthur_Vandelay (May 13, 2005)

In any case, thankyou Ardamir: well done!


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## Inderjit S (May 14, 2005)

The Sea of Rhun was the north-western tip of the great Sea of Helkar. Perhaps there were other such islands dotted around the Sea of Helkar. Cirdan and some other Elves also used the Sea of Rhun to experiment with boats and navigation during the journey to Aman, he may have used the islands to navigate back and forth from the islands to the mainland. Perhaps he cleverly stranded one of his wives on one of the islands when she started to annoy him.  Maybe she is still there now!


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## Barliman Butterbur (May 19, 2005)

Barliman Butterbur said:


> For those who wish to do the digging, I offer
> 
> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q="sea+of+rhun"
> 
> ...



And I _have_ just today (5-19-05) heard from them, and here is the reply:

===============================

Hello. Sorry about the delay. A staw poll revealed that in a very early
version of the map, the Sea of Rhun had a large island in the middle.
(Unfeasibly large, given the scale of the Sea, which is very big.) By
the time the map hit publication, this had vanished and the dots
appeared.

Those who have looked carefully at the various maps point out that there
are similar dotty effects at the Mouths of Sirion and near Balar
(Silmarillion), and references to "sands" in the Sil. The dots in the
Sea of Rhun (on scale) could quite easily represent a constellation of
small islands, but are more likely to mean sands, swamp or sand bars.
(Actually small islands would make better geography on that scale.)
There appears to be no actual reference to what is going on there.

There is a discussion of this also at
http://greenbooks.theonering.net/questions/files/020202.html#dots
Which adds some details worth having. I don't however understand
Quickbeam's reference to CRT "finding later manuscripts etc." as CRT
drew up this map in co-operation with JRR while JRR was still alive and
well and writing the books - there have AFAIK been no revisions by CRT
to these maps on the basis of stuff he found after his father's death,
when he started editing the unpublished mss. Indeed, it would be against
his whole attitude of respect for his father's decisions to start
"editing" LotR material subsequent to publication. I have asked QB what
he means, but have not had a reply. As this was some time ago and you
are waiting, this is my conclusion!

I would say "be careful of taking any craft with deep draft through
these waters. You may get stuck."

Helen

===============================

Barley


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## Arthur_Vandelay (May 19, 2005)

Another Middle-earth mystery cleared up. Thanks again, fellas!


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