# Galadriel in the Amazon Series



## Goldilocks Gamgee (Mar 6, 2022)

I am very unhappy on how Galadriel will be portrayed in the _Rings of Power, _but I am not here to express just how much I hate it.






I saw an interesting video, on whether or not the Amazon portrayal is actually accurate, by Tolkien's description of the Lady of Lothlorien and her early days.




What do you all think?


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## Halasían (Mar 7, 2022)

I'll wait and see how it is presented in the finished product before making any decisions pro or con.


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## Bahnz (Mar 7, 2022)

Probably not particularly faithful to first/second age Galadriel, but a good deal more faithful than PJ’s decision to turn Arwen into a sword-wielding badass in FOTR. At the end of the day, if it comes as part of a good show I’m fine with it. Time will tell.


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## TheManInTheMoon (Mar 7, 2022)

"Nor were the 'loremasters' a separate guild of gentle scribes, soon burned by the Orks of Angband upon pyres of books. They were mostly even as Feanor, the greatest, kings, princes and warriors, such as the valiant captains of Gondolin, or Finrod of Nargothrond and Rodothir \[> Arothir\] his kinsman and steward." - Shibboleth of Feanor 

In the Shibboleth Galadriel is described as a loremaster as well. In the Book of Lost Tales part 2 Idril fights in the Fall of Gondolin (by using a sword). In Shaping of Middle-earth Christopher says Idril was "the prototype of Galadriel". 

Galadriel fighting at Alqualondë: "Galadriel’s quarrel with the sons of Fëanor at sack of Alqualondë. How she fought…" - Nature of Middle-earth 

Note that the event of fighting at Alqualonde itself is described as a quarrel by Tolkien: "...Thrice the folk of Feanor were driven back, and many were slain upon either side; but the vanguard of the Noldor were succoured by Fingon with the foremost people of Fingolfin. These coming up found a battle joined and their own kin falling, and they rushed in ere they knew rightly the cause of the quarrel: some deemed indeed that the Teleri had sought to waylay the march of the Noldor, at the bidding of the Valar." 

There's a marginal note against this passage in Morgoth's Ring: "$149 Marginal note against the passage describing the involvement of the second host in the fighting: 'Finrod and Galadriel (whose husband was of the Teleri) fought against Feanor in defence of Alqualonde.' " 

And in Shibboleth: "she fought fiercely against Feanor in defence of her mother's kin." Note that she wasn't the only female fighter at Alqualondë. Since we are told: "indeed in dire straits or desperate defence the Nissi \[the Elf-women\] fought valiantly" - Laws and Customs 

But the difference between Galadriel and other Nissi was that she wasn't only brave, but she was also a leader and Amazon.

"Galadriel, the fairest lady of the house of Finwë and the most valiant." - Morgoth's Ring

"She was called Nerwen ‘man-maiden’ because of her strength and stature, and her courage." - Nature of Middle-earth

"Galadriel the Valiant and Fair" - Morgoth's Ring. 

"\[Galadriel\] was then of Amazon disposition and bound up her hair as a crown when taking part in athletic feats” - Tolkien Letter 348 

“\[Éowyn\] was also not really a soldier or ‘amazon’, but like many brave women was capable of great military gallantry at a crisis.” - The Letters of JRR Tolkien, Letter #244 

The only women in Tolkien who are described as 'amazon' are Haleth (the warrior Queen/Chieftain of Haladin), the early versions of Eowyn in History of Lord of the Rings (she openly goes to war in those versions as opposed to the final version where she wasn't Amazon), Makar's sister the Valie/Goddess of War (from the Book of Lost Tales) and Galadriel. Tolkien translated the word Amazon into "Gothwin" in Elvish, but the literal translation of Gothwin is "War Woman". 

"She looked upon the Dwarves also with the eye of a commander, seeing in them the finest warriors to pit against the Orcs" - Unfinished Tales 

Galadriel did fight in some wars against Angband like The Battle of the Lammoth and War of Wrath (implied but not explicitly stated). She was there in the Battle of the Lammoth (as a leader of the Second Host) and therefore fought (all elf women fight in such times of crisis), and according to History of Middle-earth Eonwë summoned all free people and birds and beasts to fight in War of Wrath, only cowards rejected his summons ("but the power and dread of Morgoth was great and many did not obey his summons"). Galadriel wasn't such. The reason Galadriel and Celeborn hadn't fought in previous battles against Angband is not because they weren't good warriors, the reason was... "they did not join in the war against Angband, which they judged to be hopeless under the ban of the Valar and without their aid; and their counsel was... " - Unfinished Tales 

Nobody listened to their counsel about forming that alliance, and the Valar didn't send aid until War of Wrath, henceforth Celeborn and Galadriel thought it's useless if they waste their energy in that war as long as there's no hope. But when hope came, there was no reason for them to not join in the war. Even random Elves of Eriador answered the summons to fight when they heard of new come hope. 

In the versions of Galadriel where her boyfriend/husband was from Doriath she also gone through some of the events of the Ruin of Beleriand (here it is never said if she had left Doriath before its fall and indeed it is stated she only crossed the mountains into Eriador in the Second Age and indeed it is even stated in a note about Celeborn that he was present in the sack of Doriath), all meaning/implying she was there in the Ruin of Doriath and the Third Kinslaying and such (as is also pointed out by Christopher Tolkien himself). We know female Elves fought in such times of crisis, even if they weren't Amazon. 

In Second Age Galadriel was one of the war leaders of Eregion in the War of the Elves and Sauron. In the early versions Galadriel is not present in Eregion during the war (she was in Lorien), and it's her husband and Celebrimbor (and later Elrond) only who lead the armies of Eregion: "The scouts and vanguard of Sauron's host were already approaching when Celeborn made a sortie and drove them back; but though he was able to join his force to that of Elrond...." - Unfinished Tales

But in later essays and notes Galadriel is there right side-by-side with Celeborn: "Celeborn and Galadriel take part in .... [Eregion's] defence against Sauron." “Galadriel and Celeborn, and their followers, who after the destruction of Eregion passed through Moria” “Galadriel and Celeborn only retreated thither [to Lorien] after the downfall of Eregion." “After the Fall of Eregion... They had passed through Moria with considerable following of Noldorin Exiles and dwelt for many years in Lorien”

Above quotes are from Parma Eldalamberon 17 and Nature of Middle-earth.

In Unfinished Tales there's yet another wholly different version of Galadriel during the WotE&S where she apparently retreated from Eregion after its fall and "joined with Gil-Galad in Lindon". I should note that the Battle of Eregion was long, Sauron assaulted Eriador in 1695 and Eregion fell in 1697. Then three years later or so Sauron assaulted Lindon. So going by this other version of Galadriel where she retreated to Lindon, she most likely also fought in the rest of the War of the Elves and Sauron

Tolkien was still revising her First Age story and had not given much thought to finishing Second Age story in last years of his life. If he had finally finished her First Age story and returned to finishing her Second Age story, we would've known where was she in the latter half of the Second Age. We also would've known where was she during the first 1000 years of the Third Age. There's just many gaps in her story.

"...her status and power in Middle-earth on
the other. That it would have entailed a good deal of alteration in the narrative of The Silmarillion is evident but that my father doubtless
intended to do." - Tolkien's son

Also her desiring to avenge her brother is canon. It's stated Finrod was "of all her kin the nearest to her heart" and she "esteemed him and loved him". Finrod gave his life to save Beren against the werewolf that Sauron had sent to eat Beren in dungeons of Sauron.

"She was sister of Finrod Felagund, Friend-of-Men, once king of Nargothrond, who gave his life to save Beren son of Barahir." - Appendix 

'Aegnor is gone, Angrod is gone, and Felagund is no more. Of Finarfin's children I am the last. But my heart is still proud. What wrong did the Golden House of Finarfin do that I should ask the pardon of the Valar...' - Galadriel

"Pride still moved her when, at the end of the Elder Days after the final overthrow of Morgoth, she refused the pardon of
the Valar for all who had fought against him, "

"she deemed it her duty to remain in Middle-earth while Sauron was still unconquered" - UT

Adventurous Galadriel is also canon.

"she had dreams of far lands" - Shibboleth

"She loved to wander far from the home of her kin" - NoME

"she yearned to see far untrodden lands" - Annals of Aman

"one of those eager to adventure there" - Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn

In the Second Age she constantly travels around. Every once in a while she has a major travel.

All that said, I absolutely hate Galadriel. Worst Tolkien character ever. She makes absolutely no sense. Hopefully TROP's version of Galadriel makes more sense than Tolkien's. But I doubt it. If Tolkien couldn't do it, then Amazon can't do it either.


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## Annatar (Mar 17, 2022)

Now let's hear what Galadriel herself (or from the point of view of some others rather Beruthiel?) has to say about it:






Edit: Here's a written format:









Rings of Power: Tolkien's European Mythology Subverted!


In a world where every aspect of Tradition is under attack, we knew that eventually they would come for the Lord of the Rings. In fact, the entire fantasy genre, which was largely inspired by Lord of the Rings, has been the victim of a targeted subversion campaign by the woke brigade for years...




philosophicat.substack.com


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## Bahnz (Mar 17, 2022)

Haha, just two sentences in and already whingeing about the woke brigade. Thanks I'll pass.


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## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 18, 2022)

Goldilocks Gamgee said:


> I am very unhappy on how Galadriel will be portrayed in the _Rings of Power, _but I am not here to express just how much I hate it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I totally agree with you, i am totally angry, that the Amazon-producers abuse Tolkiens Galadriel to create such an horrible warrior-woman-figure.
For me Galadriel is like Tolkien described her: wearing a white dress, beeing peaceful, beeing very wise, beeing very beautiful. Galadriel is not someone who would ride aggressive with a sword into a senseless war.
And there is another misstake of Amazon: On Galadriels Armor you could see the star of her uncle feanor, which Galadriel totally disliked, because she saw in his heart, that he is evil, she would never fight for ihm.
Fighting with a sword in armor, does absolutely not fit to Galadriel. She is not a warrior, she is not a soldier, she is a wise woman.
For me the Amazon Galadriel is a disgusting big shame, somthing, that has nothing to do with Tolkiens Galadriel.
For me Galadriel must look like this:



That is the true Galadriel, and not this horrible Amazon -woman, that dont deserve the name Galadriel.
I was getting ab big Galadriel-Fan after seeing the first Peter Jackson Movie...and since i have read the book afterwards, i totally love Galadriel.
But i totally hate the Amazon-Warrior-Woman, which dont deserve to wear the beautiful name of Tolkiens elven-queen.

But Amazon-Warrior-woman is not accurate to Tolkiens Galadriel, because she never fighting in a war with an amor and a sword. Elves normall fight with a bow, and not with a sword, and Galadriel has never fight in a amor like a man. 
Galadriel is no warrior, she is a peaceful woman. 
And Amazon know nothing about elves...even the fact that they only fight with bows, is totally ignored by the woke-trash-producers from Amazon.


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## TheManInTheMoon (Mar 20, 2022)

Sister, you have no idea of what Tolkien Elves are. You are basing your opinion strictly on LOTR Elves, not HoMe Elves or UT Elves or Silmarillion Elves.

Vanyar used spear to fight, never a bow. Teleri used bow and sometimes spear. Noldor usually used sword, but they also used axe and bow. Sindar used axes more than all other Elves, they used bow and sword as well.
However after the end of the First Age we never hear of Elves using axes ever again. But they still used sword, spear, and bow.

Galadriel was named as Galadriel because of her unique hairstyle during her Amazonian times back in the day when she fought in sports and battles.

The image you shared is absolutely not Galadriel. It's a fanfic Galadriel. Canon Galadriel doesn't wear her hair like that even outside of combat, canon Galadriel's crown is not like that, canon Galadriel is not bony skinny.

"Peace loving" elf that you are talking about was not always very peaceful. She was a rebel, vengeful, and angry, and exceedingly proud and believed they have done nothing wrong.
Now I hate Amazon's vision on LOTR as much as any other next guy, but let's not believe Peter Jackson's fanfiction is canon. Let's keep in mind that when we are discussing Tolkien we should take into account what he wrote, not what his fans made up. that he literally described Galadriel as "of Amazon disposition" and he wrote "she fought fiercely" and "fought heroically" and took part in defence of Teleri and Sindar and Eregion in battles. All Noldor women were trained in martial arts and fought whenever needed, even if they were not "of Amazon disposition" like Galadriel.


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## Goldilocks Gamgee (Mar 20, 2022)

Besides, we must remember that in the Peter Jackson movies, Arwen was a sword-wielding war-maiden, despite being peaceful and quiet (as far as we know), in the books. This show is not so different, portraying Galadriel as a warrior.


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## Rōmānus (Mar 21, 2022)

Annatar said:


> Now let's hear what Galadriel herself (or from the point of view of some others rather Beruthiel?) has to say about it:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I like Cat, saw her take live.



Goldilocks Gamgee said:


> I am very unhappy on how Galadriel will be portrayed in the _Rings of Power, _but I am not here to express just how much I hate it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Tolkien does have much to say on Galadriel, but from the Silmarillion one can glean that she had inclinations to rule herself (Of the Flight of the Noldor). From this and other texts, like Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, and The Peoples of Middle-earth she has been depicted as one of the mightier Elves of all time. Top three even with her uncle (Fëanor) and cousin (Lúthien), as she is described in The History of Galadriel and Celeborn as possessing “the equal if unlike endowments of Fëanor” (Unfinished Tales). High praise indeed to be so physically/spiritually endowed.

This desire to rule is one thing, her fighting on the front lines or even participating in battles physically is another. I can only recall one mention of Galadriel actually participating in battle and this was in one version of the Flight of the Noldor in which she came to aid of the Teleri. As mighty as she was I do not think this was something she partook of even though she had been likened to the captains of Gondolin.



Goldilocks Gamgee said:


> Besides, we must remember that in the Peter Jackson movies, Arwen was a sword-wielding war-maiden, despite being peaceful and quiet (as far as we know), in the books. This show is not so different, portraying Galadriel as a warrior.


A similar mistake is still a mistake. In the animated film and in the movie they cut my man Glorfindel out and replaced him with either Legolas or Arwen. The shame!

Though Galadriel had such qualities as Glorfindel, or Ecthelion, or her brother Finrod it does not seem this was a quality she exercised much, if at all, in her life. There is one version of events where Galadriel does fight to defend the Teleri before the First Age of the sun. What is seen of her in LotR is that she has Celeborn engage in the fighting (Appendix A: The Third Age).


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## Melkor (Mar 21, 2022)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> Vanyar used spear to fight, never a bow. Teleri used bow and sometimes spear. Noldor usually used sword, but they also used axe and bow. Sindar used axes more than all other Elves, they used bow and sword as well.
> However after the end of the First Age we never hear of Elves using axes ever again. But they still used sword, spear, and bow.


Don't forget clubs and hammers! House of the Hammer of Wrath used hammers and House of the tree used clubs.


TheManInTheMoon said:


> All Noldor women were trained in martial arts and fought whenever needed, even if they were not "of Amazon disposition" like Galadriel.


Yeah, I like how Idril put on herself armor and defend her city and her son.


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## Annatar (Jun 15, 2022)

"Warrior Galadriel" - Is it canon?​Here is a neutral-positive interpretation of series-Galadriel.
The videos of "Darth Gandalf" are always very well-founded and I appreciate him very much as a Tolkien expert and YouTuber, even if he, unlike me, is (still) rather positive about the series. (If I hadn't seen Amazon's Wheel of Time and the "superfans", I might also be more optimistic.)


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## Bahnz (Jun 15, 2022)

Why so much focus on Wheel of Time? They're completely different productions, the only thing they have in common is the studio bankrolling them. It'd be like saying "Oh I saw the Golden Compass and it was trash so I'm not going to bother watching LotR."


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## Persephone (Jun 15, 2022)

Bahnz said:


> Why so much focus on Wheel of Time? They're completely different productions, the only thing they have in common is the studio bankrolling them. It'd be like saying "Oh I saw the Golden Compass and it was trash so I'm not going to bother watching LotR."


... don't get me started on the Golden Compass... I wonder why they can never get that right... it's a great story

Going back to Galadriel, I for one, am interested in seeing how she will be portrayed. I agree with 
TheManInTheMoon.​


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## wonderings (Jul 21, 2022)

I know very little about the other books of Tolkien outside of The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. My hopes are not high for the show and from what I have seen in the trailers there are very specific things that are not right from just a realism stand point. Galadriel, I was trying to wrap my head around, it kind of makes her look "youngish" like she is trying to find herself or her place. Not sure if I am reading that right from the trailers, I was just left feeling that way. So as I understand it (and could be completely wrong) This age is about 3,000 years before The Lord of the Rings takes place. From what I read she left for the Grey Havens when she was around 8,000 years old. So would she not already be around 5,000 years old in this Amazon series? Or am I way off here?


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Jul 21, 2022)

wonderings said:


> I know very little about the other books of Tolkien outside of The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings.


Have you read The Silmarillion? A simple bit of curiosity-- that is all.


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## wonderings (Jul 21, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Have you read The Silmarillion? A simple bit of curiosity-- that is all.


I have done a portion of the audio book, not finished it yet.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Jul 21, 2022)

wonderings said:


> I have done a portion of the audio book, not finished it yet.


I see. How do you like it?


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## wonderings (Jul 22, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> I see. How do you like it?


It is slow going, I find the creation story to be beautiful with the use of music. I have difficulty remembering peoples names in real life, so the Silmarillion has some challenges in that department


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## d4rk3lf (Jul 22, 2022)

wonderings said:


> It is slow going, I find the creation story to be beautiful with the use of music. I have difficulty remembering peoples names in real life, so the Silmarillion has some challenges in that department


I always advice people not to worry too much about that... you don't need to track every single character (or God). 
Important names you will figure out pretty soon, and other names, after you re-read it several times  

Silmarillion is one amazing, and very unique book. 
Probably my favorite.


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## Copia (Jul 22, 2022)

Halasían said:


> I'll wait and see how it is presented in the finished product before making any decisions pro or con.



Excactly this! 
Gonna watch the show with an open mind.


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## wonderings (Jul 22, 2022)

Halasían said:


> I'll wait and see how it is presented in the finished product before making any decisions pro or con.


I am trying to do that, though there are obvious issues with the show from the trailer. For me the world needs to feel believable and make sense in the confines of what has been created. I can watch the Marvel movies (for the most part) and can enjoy them because they mostly hold to this realm that has thunder gods, iron men and all sorts of things that make sense in that created world. Same goes for Tolkien, his world is incredibly detailed and that is putting it lightly. When you start doing things or having people in place that don't make sense then I am pulled out of that world. Amazon is obviously pushing diversity and inclusivity into this show, and while that makes sense in a modern world when you can literally be on the other side of the planet in 24 hours, it does not make sense in this world. Of course having issues with some casting choices generally has people calling out racism among other things when it is not that, at least for most. I will certainly watch the first episode, but my hopes are not high. Visually it looks to be stunning, story wise and believability in the world they are painting it has me concerned.


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## Bahnz (Aug 1, 2022)

wonderings said:


> I know very little about the other books of Tolkien outside of The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. My hopes are not high for the show and from what I have seen in the trailers there are very specific things that are not right from just a realism stand point. Galadriel, I was trying to wrap my head around, it kind of makes her look "youngish" like she is trying to find herself or her place. Not sure if I am reading that right from the trailers, I was just left feeling that way. So as I understand it (and could be completely wrong) This age is about 3,000 years before The Lord of the Rings takes place. From what I read she left for the Grey Havens when she was around 8,000 years old. So would she not already be around 5,000 years old in this Amazon series? Or am I way off here?



As far as I’m aware Galadriel’s precise or approximate age is never said. She was born in the years of the trees which Tolkien never provided any finalised dates for. Given she had reached maturity at the start of the 1st age it’s probably safe to assume that she’s at least 750 years old at the start of the second age, but beyond that it’s a bit of a guessing game. Tolkien did write a letter where he said that Galadriel’s level of maturity was similar to that of someone in their early 20’s at the start of the second age (whereas at the time of LOTR she was more like someone in their 50’s).


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## Tar-Elenion (Aug 1, 2022)

If you go by the Annals of Aman, Galadriel is approximately 1900 sun years old when the Second Age begins.
If you go by some of the manuscripts in NoMe, she could have been close to 3500 sun years old when the Second Age begins. However Tolkien seems to have run into some problems with those. And also started reworking the Annals dates (left unfinished).
Some later manuscripts may have Galadriel younger than either of the above at the start of the Second Age, perhaps less than 1000. I am not quite sure if Tolkien still intended growth years to be 144 to 1 in Aman or not.
The level of 'maturity' should be thought of more in terms of how long you have to go before reaching the time of 'fading', i.e become adult and growth years switch to life years (144 to 1) followed by a long 'youth', then a long standstill, then enter fading time.
Or, at least, that is my takeaway.


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## Elthir (Aug 1, 2022)

I'm still trying to digest NOME, but so far, I'm wondering if Tolkien, in his later years, hadn't dashed his earlier ruminations for the "Elvish Life-cycles" idea.

Looking at _Elvish Life-Cycles_ text II (*1969*) in XIX for example (NOME): "Elves lived in life-cycles? sc. birth, childhood to bodily and mental maturity *(as swift as that of Men)* and then a period of parenthood (marriage, etc.) which could be delayed for a long time after maturity . . ." JRRT

Compare to Tolkien's "nette remark" (as I call it): "_nette_ meant "girl approaching the adult" (in her "teens"): *the growth of Elvish children after birth was little if at all slower than that of the children of Men*). The Common Eldarin stem (wen-ed) wendé "maiden" applied to all stages up to the fully adult (until marriage)." JRRT, from Vinyar Tengwar 47, texts generally dated *1967-70* (reproduced in NOME as well)

And of course, we have the *1968* text (associated with _The Shibboleth of Feanor_): *"Elves did not have beards until they entered their third cycle of life." * (Nerdanel's father being exceptional here).

__________

Then we add (from The Shibboleth of Feanor, again 1968 or later), that Galadriel was born in the Bliss of Valinor (which includes the vague addition: _*"it was not long in the reckoning of the Blessed Realm, before that was dimmed"*_), and that the Eldar said that her hair had snared the light of the two trees, and many thought that this this saying gave Feanor the idea of blending the light of the Silmarils that later took shape as the Silmarils: _*"For Feanor begged three times . . ."*_

My interpretation is that Feanor begged for her hair before making the Silmarils.

_______

Back in the Annals of Aman, Galadriel was born in Valian Year *1362*, so we can't have an _exact_ number with respect to Sun Years here.

And when Tolkien originally wrote _The Annals of Aman,_ 1 Valian Year equaled 9.582 Sun Years. Later, Tolkien appears to have desired -- or at least mused about -- 1 Valian Year rather equaling the much longer Elvish _yén_, or 144 Sun Years. I won't go into the details about that, but obviously using this number would make her older.

Again, using that birth year, anyway!


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## Tar-Elenion (Aug 2, 2022)

Elthir said:


> Back in the Annals of Aman, Galadriel was born in Valian Year *1362*, so we can't have an _exact_ number with respect to Sun Years here.
> 
> And when Tolkien originally wrote _The Annals of Aman,_ 1 Valian Year equaled 9.582 Sun Years. Later, Tolkien appears to have desired -- or at least mused about -- 1 Valian Year rather equaling the much longer Elvish _yén_, or 144 Sun Years. I won't go into the details about that, but obviously using this number would make her older.
> 
> Again, using that birth year, anyway!


This is what I was referring to when I said Tolkien seems to have run into some problems and started reworking the Annals dates (XIII Key Dates).
Otherwise things like 40000+ year old Luthien happen (if the 144 is just laid on top of the Annals as published in MR).


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 2, 2022)

Copia said:


> Excactly this!
> Gonna watch the show with an open mind.


This is a very good point. Of course, there shall be criticism, but it is an open mind and an optimistic outlook that will improve your viewing, I expect.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 2, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Of course, there shall be criticism, but it is an open mind and an optimistic outlook that will improve your viewing, I expect.


Indeed it shall be, for they have attempted what they could, and tried their best. An open heart and an open mind will prove useful. Criticism and positive outlook may both be expected at the end of all - but not so swiftly near the beginning.


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## Annatar (Aug 2, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> for they have attempted what they could, and tried their best


Who are you talking about?

And are you actually quoting yourself there?


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 2, 2022)

Annatar said:


> Who are you talking about?


Whoever created the film - the company/companies, I guess.


Annatar said:


> And are you actually quoting yourself there?


In what do I quote myself within?


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## Annatar (Aug 2, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> In what do I quote myself within?


Never mind. 😉


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 2, 2022)

Annatar said:


> Never mind. 😉


Well, an enigma, as always.


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## Annatar (Aug 2, 2022)

I knew it! 😂


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 2, 2022)

Annatar said:


> I knew it! 😂


Speak of it only to thyself, and to none other.


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## Annatar (Aug 2, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> Speak of it only to thyself, and to none other.


🤫🤐


(Note to self: there seem to be more trolls here than in the Trollshaws.)


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 3, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> Indeed it shall be, for they have attempted what they could, and tried their best. An open heart and an open mind will prove useful. Criticism and positive outlook may both be expected at the end of all - but not so swiftly near the beginning.


_An open heart and mind is ever that which is of highest importance. Without such, one might approach with certain closure that blocks completely the thoughts of optimism with sadness and despair, and nothing is seen of beauty, for the eyes that gaze not through the lense of potential, shall never perceive such._

Your position is much akin to my own. Despite the loss of true accuracy, I shall await the true and full representation before my remarks change to the tone of pure criticism. There may be hope and promise in it yet. Hope without guarantees.


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## wonderings (Aug 5, 2022)

Bahnz said:


> Tolkien did write a letter where he said that Galadriel’s level of maturity was similar to that of someone in their early 20’s at the start of the second age (whereas at the time of LOTR she was more like someone in their 50’s).


Seems strange to me, are Elves slow to mature and level out if it takes 750 years to reach the maturity of a 20 year old?


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## Elthir (Aug 5, 2022)

wonderings said:


> Seems strange to me, are Elves slow to mature and level out if it takes 750 years to reach the maturity of a 20 year old?



There is a now a fairly notable corpus regarding this matter in general, with various Tolkienian texts written at various times, and a fairly recent addition of descriptions from the new book _The Nature of Middle-Earth._

Given the status of these texts as not being published by JRRT himself, he was free to change his mind about stuff, even drastically . . . or to look at it another way, folks will look at the extant texts and give various opinions.

My approach is to give chronology (when Tolkien wrote a given text) it's due to try to find (if possible) JRRT's latest know idea . . . that is to say, barring actual publication by the author, I tend to go with later idea over earlier (unless the later conflicts with something already published).

I mean, one changes one's mind on the arrow of time 

Anyway, that leads me here: Looking at _Elvish Life-Cycles_ text II (*1969*) in XIX for example (The Nature of Middle-Earth), Tolkien wrote:

"Elves lived in life-cycles? sc. birth, childhood to bodily and mental maturity* (as swift as that of Men) *and then a period of parenthood (marriage, etc.) which could be delayed for a long time after maturity . . ." JRRT

I used to have a post that collected a number of Tolkien's ideas about Elven growth (and so on), but now that _The Nature of Middle-Earth_ is published. . . well, that long post would have to be much longer in any case!


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 5, 2022)

I'll be looking forward to it! 😃


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## Elthir (Aug 5, 2022)

For the record, I've no current intention to try to write such a post (try to describe stuff without opinion edging in) . . . although there is some Galadriel involved . . .



Anyone, anyone? Bueller?


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 5, 2022)

Elthir said:


> For the record, I've no current intention to try to write such a post (and try to be descriptive without opinion edging in)


You do not? You should! We want to see it!


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## Elthir (Aug 5, 2022)

Such a post . . . well, as Merlin once said of the Dragon . . . "*if you were to see it whole and all complete in a single glance, it would burn you to cinders."*







*Orrr* . . . I'm too lazy


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 5, 2022)

Elthir said:


> it would burn you to cinders


If I wanted that, I'd rather just run over to HP's Cafe and ask for a description of the ingredients in their special "Eggs Sothoth".


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 5, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> If I wanted that, I'd rather just run over to HP's Cafe and ask for a description of the ingredients in their special "Eggs Sothoth".
> View attachment 14820


Oh no. More Egg humor.... 

I guess it is better than another controversial RoP thread...


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## Annatar (Aug 7, 2022)

Elthir said:


> Given the status of these texts as not being published by JRRT himself, he was free to change his mind about stuff, even drastically . . . or to look at it another way, folks will look at the extant texts and give various opinions.
> 
> My approach is to give chronology (when Tolkien wrote a given text) it's due to try to find (if possible) JRRT's latest know idea . . . that is to say, barring actual publication by the author, I tend to go with later idea over earlier (unless the later conflicts with something already published).


This reminds me of another thread where these very points were discussed. In general, I agree with you.

However, my position may differ in this one detail, that I do not consider it entirely out of the question that, had Tolkien lived as long as a Numenorian, he would (in extreme cases) have subsequently brought out a few changes.
These changes, although not in direct contradiction to previous releases, would put the story in a very different light, like that weird thing about the One Ring that originally just made Bilbo invisible...
The fact that the original description of the effect (or non-description of the negative effects) is somehow strange and suspicious in retrospect, and led to a revision in the new editions post LotR, is finally explained very well by a trick also Middle Earth-immanent.

Nevertheless, it is evidence that one should not set published works as final fact, but rather view them as the version that has been handed down through the ages from a copy or retelling of the Red Book, etc., which can make any serious, subsequent change theoretically possible.

In addition, one could also learn from Christopher that JRR now and then jumped back to one of the earlier versions after several changes of mind (no matter which topic it was about, but prominent there are e.g. the orcs) also after advanced time and considerations.

Consequently, I would say the same: Yes, published works have the highest rank, then come in chronological order his unpublished versions.
However, one should always keep open the possibility that he would have ultimately still somehow decided differently (or yet again as before).

In any case, I wouldn't ultimately commit to a specific version on issues where JRR apparently wasn't definitively sure or ended up contradicting previously published works. There should be no problem in admitting different possibilities that JRR considered, regardless of the publication status and regardless of the time, even if these two "coordinates" of course influence the probability extremely.

Everyone may also like to determine these probabilities himself according to his own system, but an ultimate canon does not really exist there in my opinion, because the premise or definition of "canon" already excludes to consider (in this case quite) legitimate alternatives. At most, one could say that he thought this way or that way in the year XY...

But let's not get it wrong: I don't mean to say that everything is completely arbitrary and open to free interpretation, as is often unfortunately done anyway in film adaptations for various reasons.
In 99% of the cases we would probably agree, and in the remaining one percent I would say, yes, it is probably as your system provides, but I also keep open other possibilities - based on his texts and his way of thinking - of course as I interpret them, and depending on my knowledge of JRRT's works and statements, and aware that he has changed certain views over time, again based on his character and experiences. 😉

But anyway, that's certainly way too philosophical and nerdy for the topic of this thread and sub-forum.


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## Elthir (Aug 8, 2022)

Annatar said:


> However, my position may differ in this one detail, that I do not consider it entirely out of the question that, had Tolkien lived as long as a Numenorian, he would (in extreme cases) have subsequently brought out a few changes.



I don't consider it entirely out of the question either, but . . .



Annatar said:


> In addition, one could also learn from Christopher that JRR now and then jumped back to one of the earlier versions after several changes of mind (no matter which topic it was about, but prominent there are e.g. the orcs) also after advanced time and considerations.



. . . I find that I don't get very far going down the path of possibility (in the following application, anyway).

If I post about the Finarfinian family tree for example, how compelling would it be for me to always end by noting the mere possibility that Tolkien might have changed his mind about Orodreth again.

Or, even if we are out of the mere "ether of possibility", for example (from Unfinished Tales): *"It was my father's intention ultimately to transform Sador, the old serving Man in Húrin's House in Dor-Lomin, into a Drûg."*

Aha! Evidence! A reason to say something like: _"if Tolkien had lived longer, he would have . . ."_

But then again, if Tolkien is (as I sometimes put it) "not against changing his mind", do we really know Sador is a Drûg (as a fact) until JRRT _does_ change the story -- and then again-again, do we really know until Tolkien chooses to _publish _this fact. . . as, before publication, it's possible that he'd revert back to the earlier idea?

Or something


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## Elthir (Aug 8, 2022)

And then again-again-again, what compelling reason do we have to believe that Tolkien would _not_ have ultimately transformed Sador into a Drûg?

And so winds the path!


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 8, 2022)

This has strayed, rather far from it's origin.purpose as a thread... As so many do...


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## Elthir (Aug 8, 2022)

Well, at least it's better than another bacon/egg derailment.

Waittaminnit!

Or is it? Maybe it was Tolkien's intention to ultimately transform Sador Baconfoot, the old serving Man in Húrin's House in Dor-Lomin, into a Yegg!


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 8, 2022)

What -- in his retirement?

I guess I could see that.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 8, 2022)

Oh no.... More eggs? 

Here too?! 

I feel like it is all I see...


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## Lithóniel (Aug 8, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> I feel like it is all I see...


Good. 😈


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 8, 2022)

Lithóniel said:


> Good. 😈


Oh no! You also?


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## Elthir (Aug 8, 2022)

The Elves started it, 
waking up Yeggs and 
teaching them to speak.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 8, 2022)

Elthir said:


> The Elves started it,
> waking up Yeggs and
> teaching them to speak.


No..

The TREES! 

NOT the Eggs!


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## Elthir (Aug 8, 2022)

Give in to the dark side . . . which in this case could be sunny side up!


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## Starbrow (Aug 8, 2022)

> They always wished to talk to everything, the old Elves did. from The Two Towers



I guess that would include 🥚🥚🥚.


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## Elthir (Aug 8, 2022)

Excellent reference Starbrow. Everything!


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## Starbrow (Aug 8, 2022)

I guess you'd have to use "baby" talk for eggs.


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## Lithóniel (Aug 8, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Oh no! You also?


Yes, I have turned to the dark side and you should too! EGGS ARE EGGSELLENT 🥚


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 9, 2022)

Lithóniel said:


> Yes, I have turned to the dark side and you should too! EGGS ARE EGGSELLENT 🥚


I shall ne'er succumb to it!


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## Erestor Arcamen (Aug 9, 2022)

Do you know how the chickens came into being? They were eggs once, corrupted by the roosters.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 9, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> I shall ne'er succumb to it!


Neither shall I! The Second and Ninth of the Aratar will ne'er!



Lithóniel said:


> Yes, I have turned to the dark side and you should too!


_Nanwen, Lithóniel! Nanwen o Calad! Nanwen o nin! Nai emmë ala ea ciltina! Lye nér ninya Tercáno, nér lye ala?

(Return, Lithóniel! Return to the Light! Return to me! May we not be sundered! You were my Herald, were you not?)_


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## Elthir (Aug 9, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> _Nanwen o Calad! _



Nanwegg 🥚 Embrio!


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 9, 2022)

Elthir said:


> Nanwegg 🥚 Embrio!


_No...not upon me...Elbereth aid me... _


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 9, 2022)




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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 9, 2022)

No! It's Elbereth!

*It's Elbereth! Elbereth Gilthoniel!

(*is shedding unnumbered tears*)*


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 9, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> No! It's Elbereth!
> 
> *It's Elbereth! Elbereth Gilthoniel!
> 
> (*is shedding unnumbered tears*)*





Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> View attachment 14903


_No longer shall I seek pardon for what deeds I have wrought in places of speech where such is not meant!

It is indeed the EGGS that must end!_


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 9, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> _No longer shall I seek pardon for what deeds I have wrought in places of speech where such is not meant!_


Seek not my pardon, fellow Arata! Thou hast done naught in error!


Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> _It is indeed the EGGS that must end!_


Indeed! If Nirnaeth Arnoediad come upon me again due to this, naught may prevent me from ending the age of the Eggs! 

Forth, the Valar, and the Aratar!


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 9, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> Seek not my pardon, fellow Arata! Thou hast done naught in error!
> 
> Indeed! If Nirnaeth Arnoediad come upon me again due to this, naught may prevent me from ending the age of the Eggs!
> 
> Forth, the Valar, and the Aratar!


Indeed!

The age of Eggs indeed must be ended.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 9, 2022)

Egg army, assemble!

_FORWARD!
_


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 9, 2022)

Orome: Eggs? Ai, a pitiful sight! They shalt standeth no chance against the bow and arrows of mine own, or my bountiful supply of swords!
Tulkas: And my laughter echoeth all across Arda, so that all who stand it not shalt fleeth from it e'ermore!


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 9, 2022)

Ovome.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 9, 2022)

Eleniel: Tell me not that he hath the power to corrupt the Valar to the side of the Eggeth?
Varda: Hope we shalt hold e'ermore.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 9, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> Eleniel: Tell me not that he hath the power to corrupt the Valar to the side of the Eggeth?


_Nay hath he such power! Ne'er shall such a war be won and wrought! None hath the power to tear down the Valar! Valar ambena Calad, alcar i Veleth, Anta Estel, Tercano i Calad, Sere enme kopa! Enme vanie ortur! Enme vanie turnie!_


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 9, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> _Nay hath he such power! Ne'er shall such a war be won and wrought! None hath the power to tear down the Valar! Valar ambena Calad, alcar i Veleth, Anta Estel, Tercano i Calad, Sere enme kopa! Enme vanie ortur! Enme vanie turnie!_


Here we go with the Quenya again...mind translating it?


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## Erestor Arcamen (Aug 9, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Egg army, assemble!
> View attachment 14905
> _FORWARD!
> View attachment 14906_


So I guess they matched from Eggdoras?


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 9, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> Eggdoras?


Hang on - this sounds..._vaguely familiar... what realm is it meant to be?_


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 9, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> Hang on - this sounds..._vaguely familiar... what realm is it meant to be?_


Edoras. Without doubt. A realm within Rohan, Land of the Riddermark.


Vilisse said:


> Here we go with the Quenya again...mind translating it?


Sure....



Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> _ Valar ambena Calad, alcar i Veleth, Anta Estel, Tercano i Calad, Sere enme kopa! Enme vanie ortur! Enme vanie turnie!_


The Valar are near to Light, glory in Love, Give Hope, Heralds of Light, Peace we harbor! We shall prevail! We shall conquer!


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 9, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Edoras. Without doubt. A realm within Rohan, Land of the Riddermark.


My mind simply refused to follow my Will in that one..._hannon-le!_



Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> The Valar are near to Light, glory in Love, Give Hope, Heralds of Light, Peace we harbor! We shall prevail! We shall conquer!


Indeed, we shall, for an unending Age! (Another reference to Námo; it's not like I could help it-)


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 9, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> Indeed, we shall, for an unending Age! (Another reference to Námo; it's not like I could help it-)


You seem to have a particular connection with Namo, despite him shunning you. It is really quite amazing.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 9, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> You seem to have a particular connection with Namo, despite him shunning you. It is really quite amazing.


_Such is the bond betwixt Vala and Maia that hath endured for Four Ages, and shall for another Three (they do say it's the Seventh Age in the modern times, so...we were basically writing in the past all this time...)

Sometimes I even wonder if my bond with Námo is stronger than my bond with you... _


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## Lithóniel (Aug 9, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> Neither shall I! The Second and Ninth of the Aratar will ne'er!
> 
> 
> _Nanwen, Lithóniel! Nanwen o Calad! Nanwen o nin! Nai emmë ala ea ciltina! Lye nér ninya Tercáno, nér lye ala?
> ...


No. This is the light! You must join me! You’ll come to learn that this is the right side to be on. At first I was hesitant, but I have come to realize THE EGGS ARE THE LIGHT! 🥚🥚🥚


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 9, 2022)

Lithóniel said:


> No. This is the light! You must join me! You’ll come to learn that this is the right side to be on. At first I was hesitant, but I have come to realize THE EGGS ARE THE LIGHT! 🥚🥚🥚


The Light is the Light! 'Tis of the Valar, and thou are not within it!

_Let us be sundered e'ermore; mayhap such is better for thee! (Why, another reference to Námo...)_


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 9, 2022)

Lithóniel said:


> No. This is the light! You must join me! You’ll come to learn that this is the right side to be on. At first I was hesitant, but I have come to realize THE EGGS ARE THE LIGHT! 🥚🥚🥚


Oh no...

_Entulesse, Lithoniel!

Amar a nin Anar o Isil, Calad in vaiya._


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## Lithóniel (Aug 9, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> The Light is the Light! 'Tis of the Valar, and thou are not within it!
> 
> _Let us be sundered e'ermore; mayhap such is better for thee! (Why, another reference to Námo...)_





Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Oh no...
> 
> _Entulesse, Lithoniel!
> 
> Amar a nin Anar o Isil, Calad in vaiya._


Hmm maybe I should consider my choice.


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## Annatar (Aug 9, 2022)

Elthir said:


> And then again-again-again, what compelling reason do we have to believe that Tolkien would _not_ have ultimately transformed Sador into a Drûg?
> 
> And so winds the path!


Anyway, I am pleased to note that we have thus successfully destroyed this thread. 😂


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 9, 2022)




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## arivista (Aug 19, 2022)

If I disregard the question of canonicity of RoP trailer description of Galadriel (or Waradriel, if you will - BTW, I never entirely liked Nerwen stuff, it seemed somewhat off to me), I would mention one issue I have with it, among others: how *boring *it is. At least to me. 

It's not that trailer describes her as powerful, but what kind of power it focuses on - mainly physical, sword-wielding. In LOTR books, she is very powerful too, but it's different kind of power, not a brute force of a warrior. I would compare it more to Melian-like power. It is power of a will, ability to read hearts, that kind of stuff. There are not that many powerful characters in media with this kind of power. Certainly far fewer than characters of physical and warlike prowess. 

It was immediately disappointing to see, how prominently they focus on Waradriel fighting-power. Maybe she will excercise that other type of power in RoP as well, but make no mistake, they primarily see Galadriel as Waradriel, otherwise this aspect of her character would not be featured so much in trailers. (For example, Gandalf or Elrond certainly had their fair share of sword fighting, but it they released some trailers focusing on these characters and showed them prominently as sword-warriors, I would find it equally concerning. Because this is not what these characters should be mainly about.)

To me, it just makes her seem more _generic _character. The fact that she is supposed to be driven by revenge only cements it. (First of all, it's dubious whether this could be considered canon. I know Galadriel loved Finrod the most - after all, who doesn't?  - but that does not necessarily imply revenge wish.) But mainly - how many great fighters driven by revenge have we already seen in various movies? For me, far too many. Yes, they tend to be male, but simple gender swap does not make it any more interesting to me.

If a writer chooses this motivation, I consider it the most lazy and formulaic character writing. OK, I could understand it when they are adapting some source material, where this has already been well established about the character. But why would they do it when they don't have to? I can't wrap my head around it. It doesn't really add any depth to them any more, if anything, rather the opposite, IMHO. 

And the worst part is that you already have a lot other stuff to work with character like Galadriel, even if you want to maintain "girl-power" aspect of her. You could for example explore, how was she influenced by Melian, undoubtedly very powerful female character, more than her husband Thingol, I would argue. You could explore Galadriel's ambition, desire to rule according to her own will, and how she learned from Melian how to excercise power even without resorting to physical fighting. That would be more unique take of a strong female character, I think, and it would _feel _less like a deviation from the canon. (OK, to be fair, they most likely don't have rights to mention Melian in RoP, but it only shows what a bad idea it is to adapt Tolkien when you only have rights to small bits and pieces of his lore.)


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## Olorgando (Aug 19, 2022)

arivista said:


> ...
> It was immediately disappointing to see, how prominently they focus on Waradriel fighting-power.
> ...
> To me, it just makes her seem more _generic _character.
> ...


Well that's Hollywood's extremely limited, not to say primitive imagination (they always claim "it's what the audience wants!" Replace "audience" with "influential dimwitted resident studio trolls" and you're probably closer the the "truth").

Think Xena starring Lucy Lawless (kind of a female Hercules or Conan);
think the Terminator franchise of films and the development that Linda Hamilton's character Sarah Conner took in the films she was in;
think the first four "Alien" films, and the development Sigourney Weaver's character Ellen Ripley took;
I'm sure there are other examples (I just haven't watched films much in the last 20 or so years).

"Girl power" in H'Wood seems to be seen as the gals reverting to Conan the Barbarian's kid sister (I mean the film troll, not the book Conan), so their "problem-solving" is what the early teen-age male with serious communication deficits imagines it to be (this is the version that the H'Wood trolls apparently think is their core audience - as with so much, having only a tenuous link to reality).


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 19, 2022)

arivista said:


> BTW, I never entirely liked Nerwen stuff, it seemed somewhat off to me


Fair enough, but at least it exists, and the citations on page 1:

Post in thread 'Galadriel in the Amazon Series' https://www.thetolkienforum.com/threads/galadriel-in-the-amazon-series.30164/post-550287

provide far more precedent for "Waradriel" than exists for "XenaArwen".


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## arivista (Aug 19, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Fair enough, but at least it exists, and the citations on page 1:
> 
> Post in thread 'Galadriel in the Amazon Series' https://www.thetolkienforum.com/threads/galadriel-in-the-amazon-series.30164/post-550287
> 
> provide far more precedent for "Waradriel" than exists for "XenaArwen".


That's true. My criticism of released RoP material is not a silent vindication of LoTR. To quote movie Bilbo, it's not that I like XenArwen, I hate XenArwen as much as the next hobbit, but at least she was not main character and her "badass" scenes were relatively quickly over. One or two scenes with Waradriel would be bearable, but judging from the trailer, I suspect it will be much more...


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 19, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Fair enough, but at least it exists, and the citations on page 1:
> 
> Post in thread 'Galadriel in the Amazon Series' https://www.thetolkienforum.com/threads/galadriel-in-the-amazon-series.30164/post-550287
> 
> provide far more precedent for "Waradriel" than exists for "XenaArwen".


I do leastways appreciate that Arwen in The Lord of the Rings is not clad in armour, fighting, but only riding through the forests, yet she has great power...


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 19, 2022)

True, but she wasn't there to be fighting, as she replaced Glorfindel in the role of seeking for the Bearer.

See TheManinTheMoon's citations for Warrior-Galadriel; with all that fighting, it would be as natural for her to wear armor, as for any male Noldo. After all, the wearing of armor was common in Gondor, and though their metalworking, like so many things, had no doubt degenerated over the centuries, it came down from the Numenoreans, who I suspect learned much from the Eldar.

I therefore believe Elves in armor a justifiable decision. -- even if it's jarring to LOTR-only readers. Or, needless to say, movie-only fans.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 19, 2022)

That is true. Good points. 

I don't agree that the replacement of Glorfindel was right, at all.


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## Elthir (Aug 19, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> See TheManinTheMoon's citations for Warrior-Galadriel; with all that fighting, it would be as natural for her to wear armor, as for any male Noldo.



Not that you said otherwise my good egg, but for the thread I'll note that in these citations there are multiple quotes about Galadriel concerning the defense of Swanhaven.

And others that allow for the possibility that Galadriel could fight (not that she necessarily did fight), or that she was simply present when a certain battle took place. That's not a full look at the whole set of these quotes obviously, but for example, Galadriel is not mentioned regarding the Battle of Lammoth, granting that we have very little concerning it, in any case.


Anyway, what's the Tolkienian evidence -- or not -- for plate armor "all over" the body?

I'm not arguing, but wondering, as I barely remember old discussions on plate armor versus chain mail (or fish scale mail), even with respect to the Third Age Gondorians -- but any of those chats were so long ago now in any case, and there's so much new text now that maybe it's a different argument today?

Or I've simply forgotten something!

Of these discussions I can only recall (at the moment) that Imrahil held his *"bright-burnished vambrace"* to Eowyn's lips, and it revealed a little mist.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 19, 2022)

Correct, Elthir -- and I believe that's the only plate ever mentioned, which is why it's so often quoted. There's certainly nothing like what's on display in the movies.

Plate is my own "head-canon", if you will. You might more properly consider it "wishful thinking", and I couldn't object; it's based on nothing more than the oft-alluded devolution of the Numenoreans in Middle-earth into "men of the twilight".

And hey -- Feanor came up with lots of stuff; given his temperament, would plate armor be out of the question?

Edit: And if so, it might be the answer to his emblem appearing on hers, to the wailing and guffawing in the many youtube videos so generously provided by some here: She "liberated" it, after pulling a Buffy on one of his warriors. 😉


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## Elthir (Aug 19, 2022)

Ah okay. Thanks *SES*. I think I even recall the argument that Imrahil's vambrace "could" be bright burnished leather -- but I wouldn't know if that's even possible, as I'm no expert in armor, breath, leather, burnishing, mist appearing on stuff, . . .

To blather on (the thread in general):

Concerning the Nissi (Elven women): in LACE it's noted that the care of the body and healing are 
most practiced by Elven-women -- and it was deemed that abstaining from hunting and war helped 
the Elven women in this regard, and: "it was the Elven-men who bore arms at need"

And of course the text adds that in: "dire straights or desperate defence, the Nissi fought valiantly." 

Another something to note perhaps [and whether or not the following represents Tolkien's "last" known version of the Kinslaying is beside this following point]: in LQS1 it is said that Fingon and Turgon had no part in the Kinslaying. Fingon and Turgon are able to fight of course. And when the Kinslaying began, (QS tradition) the vanguard of the Noldor were succored by the foremost of the people of Fingolfin.

But Fingon and Turgon had no part. Why?

Because Tolkien 

I'm aware that Argon (Shibboleth of Feanor) "perished in the first battle of Fingolfin's host with the Orks" -- and that the Orks caught the host at unawares, and that while the ranks of the Eldar were giving way, Argon sprang forward, hewed a path, daunting Orks with his stature and the light of his eyes. And he felled "the" Ork-captain. And though he himself was slain, the Orks were dismayed, and the Noldor pursued them with slaughter.

And Galadriel is not mentioned. And she is where . . . when what happened?

Well, nothing I've said here proves Galadriel did *not* fight at Lammoth, or Battle of Beleriand X or Y,
nor am I even trying to argue that she didn't. And I don't doubt her potential awesomeness on any battlefield . . . just as I do not doubt Fingon's potential awesomeness at Swanhaven! I'm just thinking of that word "necessarily".


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## Elthir (Aug 19, 2022)

And just for clarity (for anyone) that last post of mine has nothing to do with ROP, despite that I know what thread I'm in . . . _this time_.

It's not an argument for or against what ROP is doing or might do. It's me posting about Tolkien, before another nap.


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## arivista (Aug 20, 2022)

As for the plate armour - it is said that Dwarves in Belegost invented chainmail armour that had no match:


> Their smithcraft indeed the Sindar soon learned of them; yet in the tempering of steel alone of all crafts the Dwarves were never outmatched even by the Noldor, and in the making of mail of linked rings, which was first contrived by the smiths of Belegost, their work had no rival.


But as I understand it, plate armour is generally better than chainmail armour. (Chainmail has cost advantage though.) So it rather seems they didn't have plates in Middle-earth.

But you may argue it applies only to the First Age, and plates may have been invented afterwards. Sure, although I think Tolkien rarely described later ages as times of great progress and development. Things made in the past, in the former Golden Age, so to say, were generally described as better and more advanced. After all, swords forged millennia ago are generally better then more contemporary ones. Even Glóin admits to Frodo they have we surpassed the old days only in mining and building, not in metal-work.


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## Tar-Elenion (Aug 20, 2022)

Elthir said:


> Ah okay. Thanks *SES*. I think I even recall the argument that Imrahil's vambrace "could" be bright burnished leather -- but I wouldn't know if that's even possible, as I'm no expert in armor, breath, leather, burnishing, mist appearing on stuff, . . .


I'm going to (generally) ignore helms, but here are the individual pieces of plate armour mentioned in the corpus:
"Now this great work was finished to their mind, and folk were the busier about the quarrying of metals and the forging of all manner of swords and axes, spears and bills, and the fashioning of coats of mail, byrnies and hauberks, greaves and vambraces, helms and shields."
BoLT 2, Fall of Gondolin

Gimli mentions an iron collar:
"‘Alas! My axe is notched: the forty-second had an iron collar on his neck."
LotR, Road to Isengard

Imrahil:
"And he held the bright-burnished vambrace that was upon his arm before her cold lips, and behold! a little mist was laid on it hardly to be seen."
LotR, Battle of the Pelennor Fields

However he was clad in mail not plate (for his primary defence):
"Tirelessly he strode from Citadel to Gate, from north to south about the wall; and with him went the Prince of Dol Amroth in his shining mail. For he and his knights still held themselves like lords in whom the race of Númenor ran true."
LotR, Siege of Gondor

There are some mentions of scale armour:
"He came to rest in the fern a few feet away, face downward, green arrow-feathers sticking from his neck below a golden collar. His scarlet robes were tattered, his corslet of overlapping brazen plates was rent and hewn, his black plaits of hair braided with gold were drenched with blood. His brown hand still clutched the hilt of a broken sword."
LotR, Herbs and Stewed Rabbit

"Ulmo, loving all rivers and this one more than most, went thence on foot, robed to the middle in mail like the scales of blue and silver fishes..."
BoLT 2, Fall of Gondolin

"A tall crown he[Ulmo] wore like silver, from which his long hair fell down as foam glimmering in the dusk; and as he cast back the grey mantle that hung about him like a mist, behold! he was clad in a gleaming coat, close-fitted as the mail of a mighty fish..."
UT, Of Tuor...

"Now Thingol had in Menegroth deep armouries filled with great wealth of weapons: metal wrought like fishes’ mail and shining like water in the moon; swords and axes, shields and helms..."
UT, Narn...

But otherwise it is always mail, no mentions (or drawings) of breastplates, backplates, spaulders, faulds etc.


Elthir said:


> To blather on (now not in response to *SES*):
> 
> Back to the Nissi (Elven women): in LACE it's noted that the care of the body and healing are most practiced by Elven-women -- and it was deemed that abstaining from hunting and war helped
> the Elven women in this regard . . . and: "it was the Elven-men who bore arms at need"
> ...



And there is Tolkien noting what the Eldar and other Edain thought of the warrior-woman tradition of the folk of Haleth:
"They did not willingly adopt new things or customs, and retained many practices that seemed strange to the Eldar and the other Atani, with whom they had few dealings except in war. [...] One of the strange practices spoken of was that many of their warriors were women, though few of these went abroad to fight in the great battles. This custom was evidently ancient; for their chieftainess Haleth was a renowned Amazon with a picked bodyguard of women."
UT, The Druedain



Elthir said:


> Or, for example [and whether or not the following represents Tolkien's "last" known version of the Kinslaying is beside this following point]: in LQS1 it is said that Fingon and Turgon had no part
> in the Kinslaying. Fingon and Turgon are able to fight of course. And when the Kinslaying began,
> (QS tradition) the vanguard of the Noldor were succored by the foremost of the people of Fingolfin.
> 
> ...



Regarding Galadriel in the Battles in Beleriand:
"In the years after they [Galadriel and Celeborn] did not join in the war against Angband, which they judged to be hopeless under the ban of the Valar and without their aid..."
UT, History of Galadriel and Celeborn

======
I may be mis-remembering, but I don't think the Noldor had armour (other than helms) until they came back to Middle-earth.


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## Elthir (Aug 20, 2022)

Thanks *Tar-E*!

I almost noted (in my former post about wondering about the armor references) something like -- anything from _The Book of Lost Tales_ or very early stuff -- to be looked at with a _*hmmm*_ -- but it's good to note these for fullness sake, in any case.

And the Druedain quote is excellent.



Tar-Elenion said:


> Regarding Galadriel in the Battles in Beleriand: "In the years after they [Galadriel and Celeborn] did not join in the war against Angband, which they judged to be hopeless under the ban of the Valar and without their aid..." UT, History of Galadriel and Celeborn



This was noted in the post *SES* referred to as well, but, how to put it . . . maybe this way:

*for me* (but not for anyone else necessarily) to quote this is not so easy, as I'm often railing against this very late adumbrated text, which contradicts RGEO (a Tolkien published account, as I know you know).

Generally speaking, the history here is very different from Galadriel as a leader of the Exiles across
the Ginding Ice, and Celeborn being a Sinda, rather than a Teler of Aman (again, as I know you know).

I mean, I suppose one could lift certain elements from this text, and create a blend, so to speak,
but at least generally speaking, my history of Galadriel and Celeborn is based on author-published accounts, plus Silmarillion related texts that arguably fit.


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## Elthir (Aug 20, 2022)

By the way, did I just see (last night) a "promo-something" in which Morfydd Clark steps onto someone else's sword to be . . . flung somewhere?

Tolkien citation please


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## Tar-Elenion (Aug 20, 2022)

Elthir said:


> This was noted in the post *SES* referred to as well, but, how to put it . . . maybe this way:
> 
> *for me* (but not for anyone else necessarily) to quote this is not so easy, as I'm often railing against this very late adumbrated text, which contradicts RGEO (a Tolkien published account, as I know you know).
> 
> ...


This particular portion of that narrative (regardless of Celeborn/Teleprorno etc.) fits with what is 'known' of Galadriel in Beleriand from the other narratives when she is introduced into the texts where she dwells in Doriath for most of her time in Beleriand, hence not in a position where she would be physically in combat, and as the quote continues, she (and Celeborn) leaves Beleriand (which fits neatly with her statement in LotR as well as almost all the other variants (one of which has her leaving very early as I recall).


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## Elthir (Aug 20, 2022)

Tar-Elenion said:


> This particular portion of that narrative (regardless of Celeborn/Teleprorno etc.) fits with what is 'known' of Galadriel in Beleriand from the other narratives when she is introduced into the texts where she dwells in Doriath for most of her time in Beleriand, hence not in a position where she would be physically in combat,



Right. What I was saying is that, for myself, I'd rather reference that history than simply post a 
quote from a text that I often reject. As I noted, I could select from it and blend stuff, but I normally avoid it and look at Galadriel's first age history (for the most part) as taken up by Christopher Tolkien in the constructed Silmarillion (which includes early 1950s stuff, for example).

In other words, it feels selective _of me_ to quote that, rather than point to other narratives, given how often I throw this late text to _*Grip, Fang and Wolf.*_



Tar-Elenion said:


> and as the quote continues, she (and Celeborn) leaves Beleriand (which fits neatly with her statement in LotR as well as almost all the other variants (one of which has her leaving very early as I recall).



Still, I give weight to author published _RGEO_ regarding Celeborn and Galadriel passing over the EredLuin after the overthrow of Morgoth . . . and though obviously Galadriel's statement in _The Lord of the Rings_ is author published as well, my _attempt_ -- however good or not so good it is (although I've had a few somewhat "positive" reactions from readers) -- at reconciliation here, includes, just for example, Galadriel's less specific use of passing over "mountains" in _The Fellowship of the Ring._

🐾


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## Tar-Elenion (Aug 20, 2022)

Elthir said:


> Still, I give weight to author published _RGEO_ regarding Celeborn and Galadriel passing over the EredLuin after the overthrow of Morgoth . . . and though obviously Galadriel's statement in _The Lord of the Rings_ is author published as well, my _attempt_ -- however good or not so good it is (although I've had a few somewhat "positive" reactions from readers) -- at reconciliation here, includes, just for example, Galadriel's less specific use of passing over "mountains" in _The Fellowship of the Ring._


I see that 'passing over the Ered Luin' as Galadriel would have come back in response to the summons of Eonwe for the Elves to depart from Middle-earth/receive pardon (or not) etc. after the defeat of Morgoth, and she then passes back over the Ered Luin afterwards.


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## Elthir (Aug 20, 2022)

Okay. Can you briefly sum up the larger scenario including Celeborn?

I'm interested, as admittedly, my attempt does a bit of fancy dancing.


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## Tar-Elenion (Aug 20, 2022)

Galadriel and Celeborn dwell in Doriath.
At some point before the fall of Nargothrond they abandon Beleriand and cross into Eriador.
After the overthrow of Morgoth, Eonwe summons the Elves to issue pardons and/or depart Middle-earth.
Galadriel and Celeborn answer to that summons.
Galadriel not pardoned/refuses pardon/whatever.
Celeborn holds fief in Harlindon with Galadriel.
At some point they move back into Eriador for a time.
Then onto Eregion.


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## Elthir (Aug 20, 2022)

Thanks *Tar-E*! I'll muse upon this.

By giving RGEO and LOTR primacy, I got caught up on Galadriel's seeming meaning in LOTR, that before the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin "I" passed over the mountains. So yes, as you note, there is other text to allow for "they" . . . but by heavily weighting a given interpretation of something said in LOTR, I chose (at least in the past) to move mountains!

I also chose to suggest that Galadriel's time frame reference is just a way to basically say "a very long time ago" (possible like "ere the fall of Rome" or something). In my scenario this "needed" to be so because if Galadriel passed over some mountains to meet Celeborn in Doriath, it was arguably very much before the "*fall" *of these realms.

[cough]

But as I say, I'll muse upon your scenario 

By the way *Tar-E*, I revised an earlier post of mine before I realized you had quoted it. It wasn't due to anything about our conversation, as we were not really disputing one another (as far as I read things),
I just didn't like some of my post -- the edits were about poor wording, or deleting something that I don't want to potentially get drawn into (at least for the general "present" time).

Anyway, thanks again!


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## Halasían (Aug 23, 2022)

Halasían said:


> I'll wait and see how it is presented in the finished product before making any decisions pro or con.




Yeah, I think I like Morffyd Clark's portrayal of Galadriel in The Rings of Power!


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## Erestor Arcamen (Aug 23, 2022)

Halasían said:


> View attachment 15124
> 
> Yeah, I think I like Morffyd Clark's portrayal of Galadriel in The Rings of Power!


How dare they make her ride a horse, heap of trash, heap of trash!


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 23, 2022)

Yeah,I thought she floated everywhere. 🤔


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## Erestor Arcamen (Aug 23, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Yeah,I thought she floated everywhere. 🤔


According to one former (thank Eru) member, she probably did, and defecated Elanor flowers.


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## Radaghast (Aug 23, 2022)

Halasían said:


> View attachment 15124
> 
> Yeah, I think I like Morffyd Clark's portrayal of Galadriel in The Rings of Power!


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 23, 2022)

Um, I don't think her nose really looks like that. 🙄


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## Radaghast (Aug 23, 2022)

Screenshot from IMDB.com trailer page 😁


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## Lithóniel (Aug 23, 2022)

Radaghast said:


>


This is me in the back of every picture ever.


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## Elthir (Sep 2, 2022)

Just stumbled over a Hobbit description (Riddles in the Dark) of goblins in_ "full armour"_ . . . whatever that means, and whatever that means for goblins, anyway.

Then _"whistles blew, armour clashed, swords rattled, goblins cursed . . ."_ and so on. Whatever that means too!


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## Halasían (Sep 3, 2022)

My wife is so eloquent!



> Elora said: “Galadriel’s character is a complex one. To “pass the test” she underwent in denying the One Ring in the Third Age, a great deal of wisdom and insight was required. And that is hard won, for Elves, Men, Dwarves and Haflings.
> 
> As someone else said, Galadriel’s tale is of someone who defied the gods, as it were, and yet lived to tell the tale. Her ambition, drive, and pride are key features she shares with her cousin, Fëanor. Yet, she does not walk his path.
> 
> ...


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## Ent (Sep 4, 2022)

@Tar-Elenion and @Elthir - thank you. I REALLY appreciate your interchange on Galadriel/Celeborn.
I'm going to copy all that out for study in its appropriate place on my 'to research' list..!


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 4, 2022)

Halasían said:


> My wife is so eloquent!


This really just serves to reinforce my Twitter friend's assertion that the character would have been better served by being Celebrían.

Side note: if Galadriel isn't married to Celeborn yet in this show, how'd she get the name Galadriel? That's a name he gave her.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 4, 2022)

Maybe he met her in passing.

OK, apologies in advance, but my innate laziness precludes doing a bunch of quotes, so . . .

Elthir, it sounds like whatever source you read was talking about _cuir bouilli _-- which wasn't really "boiled", but was a hardened leather, and, though it was used as a kind of cheap and light armor from ancient times into the Medieval (and into the 20th century, in some cases, the Germans not trading in their pickelhaubes for stahlhelms until 1916 -- leather not proving very good against bullets and shrapnel), I'm not aware of any specific references in Tolkien, though I could well be wrong there.

Tar Elenion, thanks for the citations. I never considered the iron collar to be "plate", but I suppose it's a matter of opinion.

For scales, besides the Southron, Tolkien talks _somewhere _(laziness again) about the Isengard orcs having only the "heavy and clumsy armor they made for themselves"; there may have been a "crude" thrown in there too.* I always took this to indicate scale, as this is much easier to make than mail, and likely of iron, rather than steel. And in fact, there's a passage in the drafts, where Frodo and Sam are escaping from what would eventually become Minas Morgul, when they encounter an orc in scale armor; IIRC Frodo stabs him up under the the plates.

I believe the Ulmo references are to mail, not scale, as Tolkien, who would certainly know the difference, calls it mail in one of your citations. I think it's used to give a more piscine feeling.

The fish-scale simile also goes for the other quotations, I believe; I think they're meant to emphasize the quality of the workmanship -- it's suppleness and intricacy. Mail is made in various ways, some fairly simple, some highly complex, aa can be seen here:



Mail made with smaller rings and more connections obviously takes more time and skill, and could well be seen as like "fish scales".

As a somewhat irrelevant end note, I'll mention that a Sumerian myth, that passed on through Akkad to Babylon, talks about wise "fish-men", or "fish-gods" who came out of the sea to grant knowledge and protection to the first people.


I could tell a story connected with that, but it would be even more off topic.

So I won't.

* Late edit: Found it while looking for something else:


> In Isengard as yet only the heavy and clumsy *mail *of the Orcs was made, by them for their own uses.


Unfinished Tales, p. 366

So maybe it wasn't scale, after all. Or maybe he was using the term on a more "generic" sense.


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## Halasían (Sep 4, 2022)

In a feeble attempt to bring this thread back on-topic, I have to say that the actor who plays young Galadriel, Amelie Child-Villers, did a remarkable job playing the part!


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## Elthir (Sep 5, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> Side note: if Galadriel isn't married to Celeborn yet in this show, how'd she get the name Galadriel? That's a name he gave her.



Did he?

In a late letter, dated March 1973, Tolkien explained that the name _Galadrie_l: *"It is a secondary name given to her in her youth in the far past because she had long hair which glistened like gold, but was also shot with silver. She was then of Amazon disposition and bound up her hair as a crown when taking part in athletic feats."* JRRT, letter 348

No mention of who gave the name to her here . . . although it _seems_ (at least) like she got it in Aman.

Oh wait, maybe you mean that text [_The Shibboleth of Feanor_] in which the Telerin Elf of Aman called _Teleporno_ gave the Telerin name _Alatáriel to Nerwende Artanis -- _seemingly giving it to her before they *"wedded later in Beleriand"* -- and which name [Alatáriel] was later rendered in Sindarin as _Galadriel_? [see also note 8 in NOME part XVI, where it is said _"Teleporno"_ gave the name to her]

Well, *if* *so*, then *waitaminnit* says I 

As Tolkien appears to have forgotten that he'd already_ published_ (twice!) that Celeborn was a Sindarin Elf, so he [Celeborn] wasn't in Aman with the speakers of Telerin, and thus he didn't meet Nerwende till later in Doriath, where he, I'd guess, would be speaking the Sindarin of Doriath.

Maybe he spoke Sindarin and still named Nerwende _Galadriel_? But if so, that would mean that she didn't get the name in Aman, in any case -- where if she did, it would not yet be in Sindarin of course.

In any case, in my opinion, if Tolkien still wants Celeborn to name Galadriel then he [JRRT] better invent a scenario that better fits his own, author-published accounts.

*And yes this post is largely just having some fun* . . . but still 




Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Elthir, it sounds like whatever source you read was talking about _cuir bouilli _-- which wasn't really "boiled", but was a hardened leather, (. . .)



My vaguely recalled source was some chat on a Tolkien forum somewhere years ago -- where I think someone claimed that Imrahil's vambrace "could" be bright burnished leather -- but as I noted earlier, I wouldn't know if that's even possible . . .

. . . to be fair, I could even be misremembering the so called (by me) claim!

Anyway, all the more reason to thank you for the info *SES*! Appreciated!


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 5, 2022)

No problem. Next time, I may show up in "e"-mail.


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## Elthir (Sep 5, 2022)

Cool coat . . . but I've already got one!


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## Ealdwyn (Sep 5, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> Side note: if Galadriel isn't married to Celeborn yet in this show, how'd she get the name Galadriel? That's a name he gave her.


And didn't they marry in Doriath? Or am I misremembering?


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## Tar-Elenion (Sep 5, 2022)

Elthir said:


> My vaguely recalled source was some chat on a Tolkien forum somewhere years ago -- where I think someone claimed that Imrahil's vambrace "could" be bright burnished leather -- but as I noted earlier, I wouldn't know if that's even possible . . .
> 
> . . . to be fair, I could even be misremembering the so called (by me) claim!
> 
> Anyway, all the more reason to thank you for the info *SES*! Appreciated!


This generally stems from Michael Martinez.

===
Ealdwyn
Re: G&C marrying. Variant accounts have it in Doriath or right at the beginning of the 2nd Age.
Might be another account that I don't recall off hand.


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## Elthir (Sep 5, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> And didn't they marry in Doriath? Or am I misremembering?



As *Tar-Elenion* noted, there are several references. With respect to the new _Nature of Middle-Earth_ book, in the first reference, for example, Tolkien explains that there were few marriages or child-births among the Eldar during the war with Angband, adding that Galadriel probably married Celeborn soon after the overthrow of Morgoth . . .

Another reference: *"but by Bel. 590 at the destruction of Beleriand only about 6 years older, say 28. She married Celeborn at that time and went to Eriador."*

Another example: *"Early in the Second Age she married Celeborn, and dwelt first in Lindon."* (*1965*)

That said, if my external chronology is correct, any reference to the time of their wedding in _The Nature of Middle-Earth_ is* earlier* that the reference to _The Shibboleth of Feanor_ [dated *1968 or later*] where it's said they *"wedded later in Beleriand" *[Celeborn being a Teler of Aman here] 

I can't recall if there are any other references to this. I recall being surprised that there were some in the new book, but again, however one interprets it, I'm pretty sure (!) the _"in Beleriand"_ reference is later than these.


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## Tar-Elenion (Sep 5, 2022)

Here is one I was having difficulty, in my dotage, remembering:
"‘Finrod and Galadriel (whose husband was of the Teleri) fought against Fëanor in defence of Alqualondë.'"
Very late (1973) marginal note in the Annals of Aman. CT the refers the reader to UT.

At the not deeply looked into reading, this seems to imply they were married in Aman.


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## Elthir (Sep 5, 2022)

Tar-Elenion said:


> Here is one I was having difficulty, in my dotage, remembering: "‘Finrod and Galadriel (whose husband was of the Teleri) fought against Fëanor in defence of Alqualondë.'" Very late (1973) marginal note in the Annals of Aman. CT the refers the reader to UT. At the not deeply looked into reading, this seems to imply they were married in Aman.



For myself, I took this digression to point out that Celeborn was Telerin (in Tolkien's mind at this point), but not _necessarily_ to mean that they had wed before the defense of Swanhaven -- although I guess it could be read that way as well.

Also, the way I read things, the marginal note to the Annals of Aman typescript is not dated, as in my opinion, CJRT is referring to the late "adumbrated tale" in _Unfinished Tales_ as dating to 1973 -- wherein we find Tolkien stepping on already published text again (Galadriel removed from the Rebellion), and wherein it is not stated (either way) if Celeborn and Galadriel were married in Aman or later.

That said, I'd date the marginal note to AA typescript as post RGEO (1967), as this _"Telerin Tel(e)porno"_ idea seems to have arisen sometime after Tolkien published [RGEO again] that Celeborn was one of the Sindar.

And thus Celeborn remains Sindarin for me.


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## Tar-Elenion (Sep 5, 2022)

Elthir said:


> Also, the way I read things, the marginal note to the Annals of Aman typescript is not dated, as in my opinion, CJRT is referring to the late "adumbrated tale" in _Unfinished Tales_ as dating to 1973 --
> 
> And thus Celeborn remains Sindarin for me.


Re-reading it again, you are correct. I misread (or misplaced in reading) the 'see' in CT's commentary.


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## Mr.Underhill (Sep 5, 2022)

Bahnz said:


> Probably not particularly faithful to first/second age Galadriel, but a good deal more faithful than PJ’s decision to turn Arwen into a sword-wielding badass in FOTR. At the end of the day, if it comes as part of a good show I’m fine with it. Time will tell.


But she still felt like a healer despite riding a horse to me. So it didnt feel too out of place for that liberty.
Even though in the book it was Frodo who rode and resisted the ringwraiths. Like the cartoon aswell


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 5, 2022)

Elthir said:


> For myself, I took this digression to point out that Celeborn was Telerin (in Tolkien's mind at this point), but not _necessarily_ to mean that they had wed before the defense of Swanhaven -- although I guess it could be read that way as well.
> 
> Also, the way I read things, the marginal note to the Annals of Aman typescript is not dated, as in my opinion, CJRT is referring to the late "adumbrated tale" in _Unfinished Tales_ as dating to 1973 -- wherein we find Tolkien stepping on already published text again (Galadriel removed from the Rebellion), and wherein it is not stated (either way) if Celeborn and Galadriel were married in Aman or later.
> 
> ...


Heck Galadriel was Celeborn's SECOND wife at one point, with Amroth being her step-son. This idea seems to have been almost immediately abandoned and struck through, per NoME. Tolkien really needed to have just settled on SOMETHING for those two and stop meddling.


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## Crowfield (Sep 6, 2022)

I loved the very stoic wood elves arriving at Helms Deep in Jackson's second movie. I am guessing Morfydd Clark was probably also enamored with the displayed countenances of that not so merry band, their not so very wide range of portrayed emotion. Perhaps she talked Ismael Cordova into also adopting a stiff Gorgon method.

Yes I'm trying to be funny, but I do mean it. I was sore afraid Galadriel would emote all over the place, some sort of woke angst against the established forces round about. Instead she (and Arondir) stiff face their duty like elves should! She should never look contrary, even when forced to act contrary.

If I would have been giving a screen test for Galadriel, I would have been looking to find someone who displays a very narrow emotional range in the role. I am relieved in who we now have as Galadriel.


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## wonderings (Sep 6, 2022)

Watched the first 2 episodes on Friday with a friend. Visually and audibly I thought it was fantastic. It did end there though mostly for me. Galadriel was the weak point in the show for me, found her very uninteresting as they made her into a super warrior princess that was the only one capable of handling surprise situations like that snow troll. I really enjoyed Elrond and Durin and the chemistry between the 2 characters. Harfoots felt like place holders to try and garnish the interest of those who think Hobbits are essential to the world Tolkien created. The dark skinned elf, can't remember his name, was like most of the characters boring. I won't blame any of the cast of actors, you can only work with what you are given and to me it all seemed pretty weak. I will continue to check out new episodes, I have not been entirely turned off to it, but it certainly does not have been waiting with baited breath for the next episode.


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## Ealdwyn (Sep 6, 2022)




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## Annatar (Sep 7, 2022)

What I like so much about Galadriel is her many different facial expressions and moods, where you could strongly sympathize with her so far. Here are a few examples.

Confident:






Exhausted:





Thoughtful:





Sad:





Fearful:





Full of reunion joy:







Yes that was unfortunately just irony. Well, in truth, she just seems incessantly ticked off by all the stupid people around her. 😂




Edit:
I forgot one: Galadriel happy and smiling 😉 :





Reminds me of an ex-girlfriend when she was mad at me.


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## Ealdwyn (Sep 7, 2022)

Annatar said:


> she just seems incessantly pissed off by all the stupid people around her. 😂


I really like Morfydd Clark as an actress, she's extremely good. But this is an accurate summary of her performance in RoP so far.
Is it her? The writing? The director? Who knows?


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## Annatar (Sep 7, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> Is it her? The writing? The director? Who knows?


My guess: They want to show over five seasons her evolution into the Galadriel you know from the movies. At the start of the development, of course, she has to be the exact opposite. Indicative of my theory is this statement from the Vanityfair interview:


> “*. . .*she’s got a sword that’s broken because she’s killed so many orcs,” McKay says of their version. “This young hot-headed Galadriel…how did she ever become that elder stateswoman?”











10 Burning Questions About Amazon’s ‘The Rings of Power’


Showrunners J.D. Payne and Patrick McKay dive deeper into the details of the lavish “Lord of the Rings” TV series.




www.vanityfair.com





There was also a development in the books, but it was quite different in terms of both time and character.


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## Ealdwyn (Sep 7, 2022)

_"young, hot-headed Galadriel"_

Weil, I guess "young" is a relative term 🤣


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## Annatar (Sep 7, 2022)

> Last edited by a moderator


Okay, now we're already deleting quotes from official interviews with the showrunners here? 😂 

I didn't know that this is "forbidden language" here, seemed more like an idiomatic expression to me.

So of course my post doesn't make much sense anymore, so please click on the link and read the sentence of the interview before the remaining quote, too.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 7, 2022)

Annatar said:


> I didn't know that this is "forbidden language" here,


You'll learn much by reading the Rules thread.


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## Annatar (Sep 7, 2022)

I can already guess where this is going.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 7, 2022)

To the Rules thread, I hope. 

Anyone is welcome to post here, as long as they follow the rules. Some people seem to forget that TTF is a family-friendly forum. Sometimes reminders are necessary.


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## Annatar (Sep 7, 2022)

Who would have thought McKay would give such family-unfriendly interviews. I'm going to have to look a lot closer at what nasty things these showrunners are saying. 😉


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 7, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> _"young, hot-headed Galadriel"_
> 
> Weil, I guess "young" is a relative term 🤣


She is in the show despite being older than either Gil-Galad and Celebrimbor.


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## Annatar (Sep 16, 2022)

vs.





Galadriel vs. Machete, who would win?

a) in combat
b) in the beauty contest
c) at the IQ test
d) when it comes to etiquette at court
e) who has the better explosions in the background




Well, it doesn't matter, in the end Arnold kills them all anyway.


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## Annatar (Sep 19, 2022)




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## ZehnWaters (Sep 19, 2022)

Annatar said:


>


I will say the turning of Tolkien's elves into super-heroes with a variety of powers is...upsetting. Galadriel has regularly scaled surfaces with minimal equipment. Legolas can Mario jump on falling stones and slide down Oliphant trunks. It's getting out of hand.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 19, 2022)

He could walk on snow too.


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## Annatar (Sep 19, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> He could walk on snow too.


But he probably couldn't skateboard on shields, and Galadriel probably couldn't swim several thousand miles or climb a tower like Spiderman.
In any case, I'd like to see a Tolkien adaptation, not a new Marvel superhero.

Anyway, much worse is that so far Galadriel is portrayed as a toxic man who happens to look like a woman.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 19, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> He could walk on snow too.


To me, that seemed like less of a super-power and more of a benefit due to his unusual lightness of weight. I may be wrong, but that was what I concluded after seeing it.


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## Arauka (Oct 10, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> To me, that seemed like less of a super-power and more of a benefit due to his unusual lightness of weight. I may be wrong, but that was what I concluded after seeing it.


Yes, it is an elvish trait, not a superpower (except as viewed by jealous humans). It is in the book too. Legolas walked on top of the snow on Caradhras while the others struggled with the drifts.


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## Eljorahir (Oct 10, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> To me, that seemed like less of a super-power and more of a benefit due to his unusual lightness of weight. I may be wrong, but that was what I concluded after seeing it.


My interpretation of Legolas walking on top of the snow was always that elves have a fundamentally different relationship with the world than us mortals. So, it's not that Legolas weighs less. More like he has some inherent "lightness of being".

If it was a question of simple physics, the Hobbits should have a great advantage walking around with those snow-shoe-sized feet.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 10, 2022)

I agree; Legolas would have to be feather-light, otherwise.

It does raise some questions, both philosophically, and about Elf physiology. I have to wonder if he really thought it through, while writing that.


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## Deimos (Oct 11, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> He could walk on snow too.


You're joking right? Yes, of course you are.
You know very well why Legolas could walk on snow.
(Please tell me you _*do*_ know why... please tell me that  ...please...😱),


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## Elthir (Oct 13, 2022)

Strange (to me) that the films and the show give Hobbits unusually large feet [this is not based on Tolkien, as far as I read the descriptions], and also give them -- what I'd describe as a fairly sparse amount of foot hair -- at least for Hobbits.

Hobbit feet were not unusually large for their size, and they were *"clad in a thick curling hair, much like the hair of their heads, which was commonly brown."*

I say keep the fake feet off the actors, put more curly hair on their foots.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 13, 2022)

If only Tolkien had remembered to say they were outfitted with boots in Rivendell. Oh well.


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 13, 2022)

Elthir said:


> Strange (to me) that the films and the show give Hobbits unusually large feet [this is not based on Tolkien, as far as I read the descriptions], and also give them -- what I'd describe as a fairly sparse amount of foot hair -- at least for Hobbits.
> 
> Hobbit feet were not unusually large for their size, and they were *"clad in a thick curling hair, much like the hair of their heads, which was commonly brown."*
> 
> I say keep the fake feet off the actors, put more curly hair on their foots.


They were also described as having thick soles, right?


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## Eljorahir (Oct 13, 2022)

Elthir said:


> Strange (to me) that the films and the show give Hobbits unusually large feet [this is not based on Tolkien, as far as I read the descriptions],


Looks like the movies contaminated my memory. Prior to your post, I would have sworn the Hobbits of the books had large feet. The only reference I could find was particular to only one family of Hobbits:

_*"His name, of course, was Proudfoot, and well merited; his feet were large, exceptionally furry, and both were on the table."*_

In this case, I guess it's safe to assume that large feet "*ran* in the family".


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## Elthir (Oct 13, 2022)

_Hobbit feet citations in blue_

*" . . . wear no shoes, because their feet grow natural leathery soles and thick warm brown hair like the stuff on their heads (which is curly); . . ."* The Hobbit, An Unexpected Party

*" . . . clad in a thick curling hair, much like the hair of their heads, which was commonly brown."* Prologue, The Fellowship of the Ring. Also from the Prologue:

The Hobbits of the East-farthing [known to be Stoors in a large part of their blood] *"were rather large and heavy-legged"* and wore Dwarf-boots in muddy weather.

The Harfoots were: *" . . . the most normal representative variety of Hobbits, and far the most numerous" *-- they were also* "browner of skin, smaller, and shorter (. . .) beardless and bootless; their hands and feet were neat and nimble"*

Keeping in mind that the Stoors were generally larger anyway, and [another reference] *"broader, heavier in build" *-- their *"feet and hands were larger."*

Makes sense: rather large, heavy-legged, broader, heavier in build -- that they also had [generally] larger feet* and hands* than the Harfoots, for example.

Are any actors given large, fake hands too 

And as noted, Proudfoot had large, exceptionally furry feet. *And not that anyone said otherwise*, but of course, that not only doesn't mean that all Hobbits had notably large feet, but if the same sentence were written about a Man . . . well some Men have "large" feet too, but . . .

. . . something


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 13, 2022)

Elthir said:


> _Hobbit feet citations in blue_
> 
> *" . . . wear no shoes, because their feet grow natural leathery soles and thick warm brown hair like the stuff on their heads (which is curly); . . ."* The Hobbit, An Unexpected Party
> 
> ...


I think it was the lack of shoes and the leathery soles that there was a projection of being larger. I assumed as much as well and I read The Hobbit before seeing the films.


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## Deimos (Oct 13, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> They were also described as having thick soles, right?


Ohhhhh... I thought it was thick souls....


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 13, 2022)

Well, given their power of resistance, you could say they had _leathery _souls . . .


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## Deimos (Oct 14, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Well, given their power of resistance, you could say they had _leathery _souls . . .


And uruks had maggoty souls.
Come to think of it, what with those heavily iron shod feet, they probably had maggoty soles too. 😄


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## Annatar (Nov 15, 2022)

Does anyone know the series "Disenchantment" by Matt Groening?







Bean has bright, long hair, a two-handed sword and is also constantly angry and grumpy.
She even has buck teeth as well:










Okay, Bean is somehow way more sympathetic than Guyladriel, but still she seems to me to be the true source of inspiration. 

Conclusion: RoP-Galadriel is a bad parody of a parody of the fantasy genre.
Well, it's all pretty conflicted. - Conflicted!?!


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## Halasían (Nov 15, 2022)




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## Taters (Nov 20, 2022)

I have two primary complaints about Galadriel in Amazon's show. First, she seems to be a teen-angsty version of the Galadriel I know and love. She has the knowledge and will power of "my" Galadriel, but not the presence. "My" Galadriel says "I am right, you should listen to me" and people do. This Galadriel whines "I am right... Why aren't you listening to me?!" It is as if she hasn't grown-up yet. And my 2nd complaint, speaking of growing up, is why is this Galadriel 5'4"? Not only are the other actors looking down to her, there is one shot where you can tell the camera itself is looking down on her. Isn't she supposed to be over 6' tall? There is a shot when she is walking next to the 13-14 year old Theo and they are the same height. No wonder she has problems commanding respect in this show.


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## Deimos (Nov 20, 2022)

Taters said:


> ...[W]hy is this Galadriel 5'4"? ...Isn't she supposed to be over 6' tall? There is a shot when she is walking next to the 13-14 year old Theo and they are the same height.


It's because Daenerys Targaryen is only about 5'3" or so 😉


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## Ent (Nov 20, 2022)

Deimos said:


> Daenerys Targaryen is only about 5'3"


True. But I think friend Taters' question was more on the lines of "why would they cast such a seemingly inappropriate and inadequate person into such a key role as Galadriel. Couldn't they have picked an actress of more suitable stature and bearing (and skill) to handle the part."

In which case the answer might be: "Oh well. It's not the only casting mistake in the show. Just one of the more glaring ones."


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## Deimos (Nov 20, 2022)

The Ent said:


> True. But I think friend Taters' question was more on the lines of "why would they cast such a seemingly inappropriate and inadequate person into such a key role as Galadriel. Couldn't they have picked an actress of more suitable stature and bearing (and skill) to handle the part."
> 
> In which case the answer might be: "Oh well. It's not the only casting mistake in the show. Just one of the more glaring ones."


My reply was ironic, and also not meant to be serious.


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## Ent (Nov 20, 2022)

Deimos said:


> My reply was ironic


Yeah. His question might well have been one of irony as well..! Another thing Ent isn't always so quick to pick up on.


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## Elthir (Nov 20, 2022)

Well, since I think no actor can really measure up (pun intended) to how I imagine the great Nerwende Artanis Galadriel . . .

. . . all I'm saying is that the woman on the right [Elizabeth Debicki] is currently playing Diana Spencer
in _The Crown_. And the second picture is the same person with . . . you guessed it . . . longerer hair.









Now, if Kristen Stewart . . . oh never mind.


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## Elthir (Nov 20, 2022)

Taters said:


> And my 2nd complaint, speaking of growing up, is why is this Galadriel 5'4"?



Is that the actor though? Maybe in the show, the character Galadriel is over 6 feet tall . . .

. . . and Theo too, if this character is of equal height to Galadriel


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## Taters (Nov 20, 2022)

Elthir, if she is 6' tall in the show, every other elf and human is taller than she is...she is the shortest person in the show, save the Harfoots (Harfeet?) It pains me that Galadriel is that short...no one should be looking down on her (literally or figuratively.) 

If that is the actress the showrunners just had to go with, couldn't they have used some of that reported astronomical sum of $$ the show cost to make her look taller, a la the cinema magic Peter Jackson used in the LotR films?



Taters said:


> Elthir, if she is 6' tall in the show, every other elf and human is taller than she is...she is the shortest person in the show, save the Harfoots (Harfeet?) It pains me that Galadriel is that short...no one should be looking down on her (literally or figuratively.)
> 
> If that is the actress the showrunners just had to go with, couldn't they have used some of that reported astronomical sum of $$ the show cost to make her look taller, a la the cinema magic Peter Jackson used in the LotR films?


Or at least go the cheap route and have her stand on boxes like Ton Cruise does in all his movies.


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## Elthir (Nov 20, 2022)

Taters said:


> Elthir, if she is 6' tall in the show, every other elf and human is taller than she is...



Ahh, but she would still be 6 feet tall in the show!

And if one wants her to be taller than everyone else, then why not cast everyone else shorter?


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## Taters (Nov 20, 2022)

If only I had that power...


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## Elthir (Nov 20, 2022)




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## ElynAltariel (Dec 3, 2022)

I totally dislike Amazons Galadriel....she acts like a teenage girl with aggression-problems, she is a cold, heartless warrior, and her eyes are always cold and hateful. For me that is not Tolkiens Galadriel, it is Amazons own, horrible composition. I prefer to read the books again and watch Peter Jacksons movies again. Rings of Power is nothing for me, i will not watch it, because that would be wasted lifetime. I am totally annoyed, how the money-greedy Amazon ruins Tolkiens books totally in the serie. Amazons ROP has nothing to do with Tolkiens books.
And: Amazon even didnt read the Silmarillion. If they read it, they would have seen, that Galadriels Brother, Finrod Felagund, had died in Saurons dungeon, when he trys to protect Beren. Another totally blame for Amazon...they dont care about Tolkiens work, they only want to use his name to make money.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Dec 3, 2022)

ElynAltariel said:


> Amazon even didnt read the Silmarillion.


Amazon is a company and is incapable of reading a book.


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## ElynAltariel (Dec 3, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> Amazon is a company and is incapable of reading a book.


Well, it would have been better, if they have made an Earthsea -serie instead of a Lord of the Rings serie...what Amazon made there, would fit perfect for Earth See books, but not for Tolkiens books. 
In my opinion ROP is an insult for Tolkiens great work and for every Fan of Tolkien.


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## ZehnWaters (Dec 5, 2022)

ElynAltariel said:


> Well, it would have been better, if they have made an Earthsea -serie instead of a Lord of the Rings serie...what Amazon made there, would fit perfect for Earth See books, but not for Tolkiens books.
> In my opinion ROP is an insult for Tolkiens great work and for every Fan of Tolkien.


Bernard Hill seems to agree.


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## Child of Varda (Saturday at 2:50 PM)

Personally, I'm fine with Galadriel using weapons in the Second Age. Personally, I imagine her more as a Gandalf-type counsellor in the Second Age who takes up a sword in necessity rather than a military commander but I like to see Galadriel with a weapon. However, I had many other complaints about her character, especially because I don't think it would be an exaggeration to say she seemed bad at pretty much everything else.
Also, her whole pride and desire to control others as a character flaw feels a bit undercut by making her basically a murderous maniac.


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## Halasían (Saturday at 7:50 PM)

Child of Varda said:


> Personally, I'm fine with Galadriel using weapons in the Second Age. Personally, I imagine her more as a Gandalf-type counsellor in the Second Age who takes up a sword in necessity rather than a military commander but I like to see Galadriel with a weapon. However, I had many other complaints about her character, especially because I don't think it would be an exaggeration to say she seemed bad at pretty much everything else.
> Also, her whole pride and desire to control others as a character flaw feels a bit undercut by making her basically a murderous maniac.


Welcome to Tolkien Forums Child of Varda! An interesting insight on Galadriel. I agree she is portrayed as being rather rough and in a sort of comic-book way in Rings of Power. Not how I would see her at the time.


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