# Could Elrond "fade"?



## BalrogRingDestroyer (Jul 31, 2019)

Also, what about the children of Aragorn and Arwen? 


I understand that humans die, normally (I haven't read all of Tolkenology so I don't know if there were any that didn't die. I know that Beren was resurrected but later died again.) and Elves are immortal but will fade over time if they stay in Middle Earth.

I understand that Elrond is immortal like an Elf (no clue how it would be for Aragorn's children, but possibly the same. Did Tolkien ever state what happens with them?). 

Since he's not a full Elf and not a full Man, would he have faded had he stayed in Middle Earth?


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## Elaini (Jul 31, 2019)

Elrond was still told to have the "full glory" of the firstborn (Elves) so I always took that he was a Peredhel mainly in title after his decision. Also, eventually Elrond rejoined Celebrían in Valinor, and to me that kind of moment is more "shining" than fading. Despite she has to learn about her children in one point.

The idea was that one cannot practically be half mortal and half immortal, death over time will either happen or it won't and that is why they were given the choice as a mercy. Besides that the fates of Elves and men differ - Elves will be resurrected to the same world unless something strange or horrible happens and men move on to the next world whatever it may be. In the words of a certain debate Elves are the lords of Arda (the world of Middle-Earth) while Men are the guests. Yet the Men rule it more notably while the Elves are being more mysterious.

Once a Peredhel officially decides one's own fate, that's it. Arwen just postponed that decision quite a while.

As for children of Aragorn and Arwen, I don't think the children of Elrond's twin Elros really had the power to undo their father's mortal heritage of choice so they remained mortal, but they did get the blessing of aging slower and having a lifespan several times longer than average human. These are known as the Dúnedain and Aragorn is one of them. So maybe Arwen's children cannot undo their mother's mortal choice either. But basically their children were the Dúnedain restored to their full glory (they had weakened a bit over a very large number of generations).

Tuor was also counted among the firstborn when he ended up in Valinor with Idril, despite he was 100% human (he was the only such a one). But I think the approval of Eru and Valar had more to do with the change than Valinor itself. There were Men of Númenor that attempted to conquer Valinor but were killed by the land itself.

Anyway, I'm rambling a lot so I'll stop for now.


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## Alcuin (Aug 7, 2019)

To follow on the ideas presented by Elaini, yes, Elrond could “fade”. That and the weariness of the world that came upon him when his Great Ring, Vilya, lost its potency with the undoing of Sauron’s Ruling Ring, is why he left Middle-earth.

The appearance of Eärendil and Elwing in Valinor presented the Valar with a problem. Only the Deathless (read: “Elves,” though their deaths are, as Finrod notes in his debate with Andreth, only postponed: they are _longevial_ with the life of Arda, not truly immortal) can come to Valinor. Mandos ruled that they were both mortal, like their fathers, but Manwë overruled him. Which brings up an interesting point: Dior son of Beren and Lúthien, Elwing’s father, had already died defending Menegroth and Doriath, as had her brothers, Eluréd and Elurín: Mandos’ argument shows that Dior, who had already come to the Halls of Mandos, had departed Arda as do all souls of Men: Dior was mortal. 

Manwë, however, ruled that Eärendil and Elwing were to be given an irrevocable choice to be counted as either Elves or Men. Eärendil was weary and wished to be counted among Men; but Elwing was delighted with the company of the Eldar, so Eärendil chose also to be one of the Eldar so that he would not be parted from Elwing.

Elros and Elrond were also given this choice. Elros chose to be counted among Men, and was given a long life of 500 years. Since he was the only survivor of the kings of the Third and First Houses of Men, as well as a descendent of the three (actually four: the Teleri had two kings. Elu Thingol in Middle-earth and his brother Olwë in Eldamar: Elros was a descendent of both) kings of Elves, he was acknowledged the first king of the Edain that went over the sea to Númenor. (Technically, Elros was the chieftain of the Third House, the position his father Eärendil would have inherited from his father Tuor, who inherited when his cousin Turin died by his own hand. But of course, Tuor was counted among the Eldar, as Elaini notes, the only Man to be counted among the Elves, and so was not dead; and Eärendil was also counted among the Elves: so the chieftainship passed to Elros. Dior was technically the last chieftain of the First House, but he was Elros’ maternal grandfather; and Tuor’s mother was a daughter of the Halads of Brethil, the elected wardens or chieftains of the Second House.) Elros’ choice was, like his parents’, irrevocable, and also bound his descendents as well, the Kings of Númenor and their blood kin. 

Elrond chose to be counted among the Eldar. Here’s where it gets interesting. Elrond’s choice was _not_ irrevocable: he could change his mind at any time and like his brother, be counted among Men rather than Elves. Moreover, the _same_ choice was given to his children _so long as Elrond remained in Middle-earth_. (I don’t know what this says about Elladan and Elrohir remaining in Middle-earth after their father departed for the Far West. I believe Tolkien explicitly says their decisions are not recorded. For myself, I believe they followed the choice of their sister, Arwen, but there is no proof. Celeborn, their grandfather, moved to Rivendell after Galadriel departed with Elrond, her son-in-law, and lived with Elladan and Elrohir.) 

Once Arwen made her choice to be mortal and wed Aragorn, it was _irrevocable_. The rule seems to be that mortality trumps immortality (except for Tuor). Choose to be mortal, you can’t unchoose it. Neither can your offspring. 

As for the Elves: they _all_ faded, and that included Elrond Half-elven, at least after the destruction of the One Ring. A conceit of the Elves was that, as Tolkien put it, “They wanted to have their cake and eat it.” One of the temptations that Sauron used to seduce them into making the Rings of Power was their desire to _keep things as they were_, unchanging, not fading, as if they were in Valinor (where everything also faded, even the Valar themselves, but much, much more slowly). Heaven on Earth: a temptation offered in the real world by real-world tyrants, an offer that never works: *Utopia* is a Latin word (coined by St Thomas More) that translates as “*Nowhere*”. (Good thing to remember when people promise you a utopia, as will happen in your life.) Tolkien said the Eldar preferred to remain in Middle-earth, where they were on the top of the social ladder, rather than emigrate to Valinor, where they would be at the bottom. They became, as Tolkien put it, “embalmers”. 

Elrond lost everything in the War of the Ring. Arwen stayed behind, and her fate was sundered from her father’s forever; I think Elladan and Elrohir probably remained, too (though remember that’s just my opinion: there is no proof). Vilya, his Ring, was stripped of its power. His world at last began to fade. Celebrían, his wife (Galadriel and Celeborn’s daughter), was there: he had that at least. But I wonder if like his father Eärendil, he made his choice with some regret. 

And I have now rambled much more than Elaini.


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## Gothmog (Aug 26, 2019)

Very good summation except for one point. 


Alcuin said:


> Elrond chose to be counted among the Eldar. Here’s where it gets interesting. Elrond’s choice was _not_ irrevocable: he could change his mind at any time and like his brother, be counted among Men rather than Elves. Moreover, the _same_ choice was given to his children _so long as Elrond remained in Middle-earth_. (I don’t know what this says about Elladan and Elrohir remaining in Middle-earth after their father departed for the Far West. I believe Tolkien explicitly says their decisions are not recorded. For myself, I believe they followed the choice of their sister, Arwen, but there is no proof. Celeborn, their grandfather, moved to Rivendell after Galadriel departed with Elrond, her son-in-law, and lived with Elladan and Elrohir.)


In checking the Sil we find in the Voyage of Earendil: The doom of Manwe concerning the Half-Elven.


> to Eärendil and to Elwing, and to their sons, shall be given leave each to choose freely to which kindred their fates shall be joined, and under which kindred they shall be judged.'


Elrond and Elros were given the choice, once made their fates were joined with their chosen people and could not be un-chosen. So Elrond was, as far as his fate was concerned, a full Elf though by being Half-Elven his children also were allowed the choice but this would not continue farther down the bloodline as is shown in the Appendices: The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen:


> I should still be grieved because of the doom that is laid on us."
> 
> '"What is that doom?" said Aragorn.
> 
> '"That so long as I abide here, she shall live with the youth of the Eldar," answered Elrond, "and when I depart, she shall go with me, if she so chooses."


So Elrond's choice is made and set. His children's choices are deferred until Elrond leaves at which time either they follow him and choose the life of the Eldar or remain in Middle-earth and the life of Men.


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## Alcuin (Aug 26, 2019)

I would wholeheartedly agree with you, Gothmog, regarding Elladan and Elrohir, except that Tolkien specifically says in _Letter_ 153,


> In the primary story of _Lúthien_ and _Beren__,_ Lúthien is allowed as an absolute exception to divest herself of “immorality” and become “mortal”… Tuor weds Idril the daughter of Turgon King of Gondolin; and “it is supposed” (not stated) that he as an unique exception receives the Elvish limited “immortality”… Eärendil is Tuor’s son & father of Elros (First King of Númenor) and Elrond, their mother being Elwing daughter of Dior, son of Beren and Lúthien… The view is that the Half-elven have a[n] … (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin’s fate they will share. Elros chose to be … mortal, so all his descendants are mortal… Elrond chose to be among the Elves. His children – with a renewed Elvish strain, since their mother was Celebrían [daughter] of Galadriel – have to make their choices. Arwen is not a “re-incarnation” of Lúthien … but a descendant very like her in looks, character, and fate. When she weds Aragorn … she “makes the choice of Lúthien”… Elrond passes Over the Sea. The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while.


But for that, I would say that Elladan and Elrohir definitely chose to become mortal, married daughters of the Dúnedain as their sister married the King of the Dúnedain, and lived the remainder of their lives as princes of Arnor; but Tolkien explicitly says their fate “is not told.” Celeborn, their grandfather, lived with them for a while in Rivendell after Galadriel departed: that is all we are told.


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## Gothmog (Aug 26, 2019)

Ah. But I was not arguing with your comments about Elladan and Elrohir. It may be that they did indeed choose to be joined with the fate of Men or it may have been that one chose Men and the other Eldar as with Elrond and Elros. We don't know and can only speculate but their choice was deferred until Elrond left. My post was concerned with your comment that "Elrond’s choice was _not_ irrevocable: he could change his mind at any time ".


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## Alcuin (Aug 26, 2019)

Gothmog said:


> Ah. But I was not arguing with your comments about Elladan and Elrohir. It may be that they did indeed choose to be joined with the fate of Men or it may have been that one chose Men and the other Eldar as with Elrond and Elros. We don't know and can only speculate but their choice was deferred until Elrond left. My post was concerned with your comment that "Elrond’s choice was _not_ irrevocable: he could change his mind at any time ".


You are correct: I stand in error. _The Lord of the Rings_, “Appendix A”, “_Annals of the Kings and Rulers: Númenor”:_


> At the end of the First Age the Valar gave to the Half-elven an irrevocable choice to which kindred they would belong. Elrond chose to be of Elven-kind, and became a master of wisdom. To him therefore was granted the same grace as to those of the High Elves that still lingered in Middle-earth: that when weary at last of the mortal lands they could take ship from the Grey Havens and pass into the Uttermost West; and this grace continued after the change of the world.


I misinterpreted the phrase, “this grace continued after the change of the world,” as meaning Elrond could change his mind.


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## Gothmog (Aug 26, 2019)

Then we are now in total agreement


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## BalrogRingDestroyer (Aug 26, 2019)

Elaini said:


> Elrond was still told to have the "full glory" of the firstborn (Elves) so I always took that he was a Peredhel mainly in title after his decision. Also, eventually Elrond rejoined Celebrían in Valinor, and to me that kind of moment is more "shining" than fading. Despite she has to learn about her children in one point.
> 
> The idea was that one cannot practically be half mortal and half immortal, death over time will either happen or it won't and that is why they were given the choice as a mercy. Besides that the fates of Elves and men differ - Elves will be resurrected to the same world unless something strange or horrible happens and men move on to the next world whatever it may be. In the words of a certain debate Elves are the lords of Arda (the world of Middle-Earth) while Men are the guests. Yet the Men rule it more notably while the Elves are being more mysterious.
> 
> ...



If I recall correctly, the Men of Numenor weren't "killed" per se, but "put to sleep" till the Dagor Dagorlath.


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## Elthir (Aug 28, 2019)

To toss in some further considerations (in question form): when was letter 153 written? And when was Tolkien wholly finished writing the Appendix tale of Aragorn and Arwen? In any case, in the first edition of _The Lord of the Rings, _nothing is "told" about Elladan and Elrohir with respect to Elrond sailing into the West.

Yet for the revised Second Edition of the 1960s, roughly a decade after Tolkien wrote letter 153 (a letter that JRRT had no way of knowing his readership at large would ever know about), Tolkien adds two references to Elladan and Elrohir remaining in Middle-earth after Elrond sailed.

And (speculation-scenario alert) what if letter 153 is messing with Tolkien's reason for adding a couple references to Elrond's sons remaining in Middle-earth after Elrond sailed, given:


"But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they remained to become mortal and die in Middle-earth" Appendix A

And:


"What is that doom?" said Aragorn.

"That so long as I abide here, she shall live with the youth of the Eldar," answered Elrond, "and when I depart, she shall go with me, if she so chooses."

( . . .) "But lo! Master Elrond, the years of your abiding run short at last, and the choice must soon be laid upon you and your children, to part either with you or with Middle-earth."



I realize "no one knows" is an attractive interpretation, and the letter helps that. And I'm aware of the counter arguments concerning "with" Elrond and so on, but so far . . .

I'm going with mortal


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## Alcuin (Aug 28, 2019)

_Letter_ 153 was written in September 1954. Christopher Tolkien’s notes in _Peoples of Middle-earth_ for the subchapter on the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen in Appendix A say that, “there seems to be no clear and certain evidence of its relative date, but its … history may indicate that it had been in existence for some time when my father was working on the narrative of the Realms in Exile”. At the end of the chapter on Appendix A, CJRT notes that _Fellowship_ was published in July 1954, and _Two Towers_ in November that year. I think he is implying that the Appendix was assembled after that, but with all the other information, thinks that some of the material may its origins before then.


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## Elthir (Aug 28, 2019)

I couldn't pin things down certainly either Alcuin. The question I'm raising with the dating is: could letter 153 pre-date the final draft of the tale of A&A, and if so, could the notion of the brothers "delaying" their choice be itself an abandoned idea?

We might never know the dating for sure (unless I'm missing something here), and if so, the question remains.

Also, it seems to water things down in my opinion. In other words, if the idea behind the above conversation between Elrond and Aragorn is really: "_soon_, yeah Aragorn, but not really when I sail . . . my boys have had roughly three thousand years to choose, and my presence in Middle-earth gives them the life of the Eldar, but they can delay their choice a bit more if they like, even after I leave."

Of course I'm trying to make that sound silly-ish.

But still.

In any case, I think it's possible that Tolkien, in 1955, didn't intend to tell the fates of Elrond's sons by simply not mentioning whether or not they sailed on the ship with Elrond, Galadriel, Gandalf and so on. And in the 1960s . . .


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