# Why Did Gandalf Choose Bilbo Baggins?



## greypilgrim (Oct 1, 2004)

From "An Unexpected Party"...

"Of course there is a mark," said Gandalf. "I put it there myself. For very good reasons. You asked me to find the fourteenth man for your expedition, and I chose Mr. Baggins. Just let any one say I chose the wrong man or the wrong house and you can stop at thirteen and have all the bad luck you like.."

What was Gandalf up to? What were the "very good reasons" he had for picking Bilbo?


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## Astaldo (Oct 1, 2004)

Maybe he just realised that Bilbo had something good "inside" him and understood that he was meant to do something great that others could not. Maybe he had a vision or something and a Vala told him to do that.

Remember that when The Hobbit was writen LOTR was not.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Oct 1, 2004)

Gandalf chose Bilbo:

"For very good reasons. You asked me to find the fourteenth man for your expedition, and I chose Mr Baggins. Just let any one say I chose the wrong man or the wrong house, and you can stop at thirteen and have all the bad luck you like, or go back to digging coal.’

"He scowled so angrily at Gloin that the dwarf huddled back in his chair; and when Bilbo tried to open his mouth to ask a question, he turned and frowned at him and stuck out his bushy eyebrows, till Bilbo shut his mouth tight with a snap. 'That’s right,' said Gandalf. 'Let’s have no more argument. I have chosen Mr Baggins and that ought to be enough for all of you. If I say he is a Burglar, a Burglar he is, or will be when the time comes. There is a lot more in him that you guess, and a deal more than he has any idea of himself.'"

...

"Gandalf answered angrily: 'I brought him, and I don't bring things that are of no use. Either you help me to look for him, or I go and leave you here to get out of the mess as best you can yourselves. If we can only find him again, you will thank me before all is over."

...

"...it was from little Bilbo that they seemed to expect to get the answers. From which you can see that they had changed their opinion of Mr Baggins very much, and had begun to have a great respect for him (as Gandalf had said they would). Indeed they really expected him to think of some wonderful plan for helping them, and were not merely grumbling. They knew only too well that they would soon all have been dead, if it had not been for the hobbit..."

...

"I suppose we ought to thank our stars and Mr Baggins. I am sure he has a right to expect it, though I wish he could have arranged a more comfortable journey. Still – all very much at your service once more, Mr Baggins."

===============================

And so forth and so on. Gandalf chose Bilbo because he knew that he had heroic qualities, including courage, a stout heart, honesty, and kindness to an extent Bilbo had no idea of himself.

Barley"


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## ely (Oct 1, 2004)

Or maybe he just knew Bilbo so well (better than Bilbo knew himself), knew that he had this little sparkle of adventure in him and that he was also a kind-hearted and smart person.


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## Gildor (Oct 1, 2004)

Gandalf had been visiting the Shire for quite some time judging by his reputation for fireworks and sending adventuresome hobbits on "mad adventures." He seemed to have known Bilbo's mother Belladonna, and had in fact been keeping an eye on Bilbo for quite some time, seeing that he had a strong "Tookish" side and other qualities of interest. It seems that the idea simply came into Gandalf's mind that Bilbo would be ideal for the dwarves quest, and very likely essential to it.


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## William Amos (Oct 1, 2004)

It was interesting to read in unfinished tales "An unexpected party"

It details a talk Gandalf was having with Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin about the events surrounding Bilbo after the War of the ring.

Gandalf relates this line of thinking. He states that Thorin came to him wanting to deal with the Dragon. Gandalf stated also that his mind was on the dragon and the terrible effect it might have in the North (attacking Rivendell)

He said he listened to thorins plan. (which was to basically attack the Dragon head on.) He felt that was foolish and wanted a plan involving more stealth.

Gandalf stated he had a vision of Dwarf boots stomping and making all sorts of noise. He felt they needed someone that would be a little sneaky than a dwarf. He said the vision of "quiet little hobbit feet" came to him.

gandalf then thought of all the hobbis he knew. He said he had been keeoing track of Bilbo who was always so inquisitive for a hobbit. Bilbo always wanted know about distant lands and other people and wanted to travel.

Gandalf then stated he made a mistake in that he hadnt kept track of Bilbo in several years and that Bilbo had gotten soft. he said Bilbo was in a near state of panic when he found out that his dream might come true !

Also he talk about how furious that Thorin was with "sticking" him with Bilbo. He thought Gandalf didnt take his claim to reclaim the Kingdom under the Mountain seriously.

Gandalfd stated he warned thorin that "you came to me looking for help" and that he felt that if Biblo went things would work out but if he didnt go then Thorin would fail.

He also stated that during Bilbos party that Bilbo nearly spoiled the whole thing that Thorin ws really angry and the only thing to save the day was Gandalf remembering the key and the Map he had gotten off a Dwarf he didnt know who it was until that very moment. He said that saved the day.


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## baragund (Oct 2, 2004)

Just a tiny correction to William A's summary. The chapter in Unfinished Tales is entitiled "The Quest for Erebor". Along with The Quest for Erebor, there are several other interesting descriptions of some of the back story behind LOTR, like accounts of the disaster at the Gladden Fields, background on the Rohirrim, the hunt for the Ring and the battle of the Fords of Isen. And then there is more cool stuff from the First and Second 
Ages as well.


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## greypilgrim (Oct 2, 2004)

It is obvious to me now why Gandalf felt that Bilbo would be vital to the mission.  

*reminds myself to pick up a copy of "unfinished tales"*


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## Flame of Udûn (Oct 3, 2004)

Just a tiny correction to *baragund*'s memory. The chapter in _Unfinished Tales_ is entitled "The Quest _of_ Erebor".


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## Barliman Butterbur (Oct 3, 2004)

Flame of Udûn said:


> Just a tiny correction to *baragund*'s memory. The chapter in _Unfinished Tales_ is entitled "The Quest _of_ Erebor".



By God, THAT'S the kind of eagle-eye looking-out we need around here! You'd make a good forensic investigator! 

Barley


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## baragund (Oct 3, 2004)

I stand corrected.


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## Helcaraxë (Oct 11, 2004)

Gandalf probably knew more about hobbits than hobbits do themselves, and certainly knew that they had great resiliency and strength when need drove them to it. I don't remember where the exact quote is, but I believe I remember Gandalf remarking that even the fattest hobbit had a hidden strength. Perhaps Gandalf knew that Bilbo was himself remarkable in this respect, and we see later on that the Ring has a surprisingly weak hold on him.

Also, recall that Gandalf was in fact, a Maia, and could understand many hidden things.


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## Ithrynluin (Oct 11, 2004)

Helcaraxë said:


> we see later on that the Ring has a surprisingly weak hold on him.



What makes you say that? I certainly wouldn't say the Ring had even a _generally_ weak hold on Bilbo, let alone a _surprisingly_ weak hold! I think the Hobbits as a race were less prone to fall to the lures of the ring, simply because they had less to 'offer' in the sense of native power (since those with greater power could make use of the ring's abilities more fully). I simply think that Bilbo was special, that Gandalf sensed it, and that this was all part of Eru's plan, though I'm sure he gave them much 'space for breathing' (i.e. free will ).


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## baragund (Oct 12, 2004)

Ithy, the 'surprisingly' weak hold of the ring is shown where Bilbo was able to keep the Ring for fifty-some years and not be consumed by it. Compare that to Gollum/Smeagol, who was driven to murder Deagol practically within minutes of finding it, or Isildur, who could not bring himself to destroy it even with the knowledge of what it was.

Also, Bilbo was the only person to voluntarily pass the Ring on to someone else.

Still, perhaps 'comparitively' might have been a better choice of words than 'surprisingly'.


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## Ithrynluin (Oct 12, 2004)

I see what you mean, though Bilbo was hard put to it to give up his ring. 

The circumstances were different, to put it plainly. For example, there was no Maia around to assist Gollum and Isildur.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Oct 12, 2004)

Ithrynluin said:


> ...I certainly wouldn't say the Ring had even a _generally_ weak hold on Bilbo, let alone a _surprisingly_ weak hold! I think the Hobbits as a race were less prone to fall to the lures of the ring, simply because they had less to 'offer' in the sense of native power (since those with greater power could make use of the ring's abilities more fully). I simply think that Bilbo was special, that Gandalf sensed it, and that this was all part of Eru's plan, though I'm sure he gave them much 'space for breathing' (i.e. free will ).



Actually, neither Bilbo nor Frodo could let go of the ring easily — it was Sam who proved strongest of all: taking it from Frodo, wearing it, _using_ it, and giving it back when it was called for with no difficulty whatever (despite PJ's spin). As a matter of fact, Tolkien himself considered Sam the chief hero of the book:

From Letter #131:

"I think the simple 'rustic' love of Sam and his Rosie (nowhere elaborated) is absolutely essential to the study of his (the chief hero's) character, and to the theme of the relation of ordinary life (breathing, eating, working, begetting) and quests, sacrifice, causes, and the 'longing for Elves', and sheer beauty."

Barley


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## baragund (Oct 12, 2004)

Ithrynluin said:


> IThe circumstances were different, to put it plainly. For example, there was no Maia around to assist Gollum and Isildur.



Ithy, do you think Gandalf used some of his 'divine' power as a Maia to assist Bilbo in giving up the Ring? I always thought Gandalf was acting as a facilitator, only using the power of verbal persuasion to guide Bilbo onto the right path as opposed to weaving some kind of spell or magical powers.

Mr. B, good point about Sam. And thank you for the reference to JRRT's letter that identifies Sam as the true hero of LOTR. Next time YayGollum is around, I'll have to point that out to him.

But don't forget Sam had a little twinge of the pull of the Ring. Remember his vision where he saw all of Middle-Earth as wonderful gardens and he was in charge of it all? And there was some resistance when Frodo demanded it back. As to Frodo, I have to disagree that he gave it up voluntarily. Gollum took it by force by biting it off of his hand.

I don't mean to slight what Sam was able to do. He gave up the Ring voluntarily but he was not immune to its' effects. I still think the amount of time that Bilbo kept the Ring and the number of times he used it through the years set him apart from Sam.


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## Ithrynluin (Oct 12, 2004)

Well, didn't Gandalf sort of threaten Bilbo when the hobbit was having second thoughts about leaving the ring behind? That certainly 'made it easier' for Bilbo to give up the Ring.  Bilbo was after all only a little halfling and Gandalf a Maia. Isildur was a great lord in his own right, noone could boss him around. Am I making sense at all? I've barely given much thought to the notion myself.


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## Flame of Udûn (Oct 12, 2004)

Helcaraxë said:


> I don't remember where the exact quote is, but I believe I remember Gandalf remarking that even the fattest hobbit had a hidden strength.


Not Gandalf, but there is such a passage:


> There is a seed of courage hidden (often deeply, it is true) in the heart of the fattest and most timid hobbit, wailing for some final and desperate danger to make it grow. Frodo was neither very fat nor very timid; indeed, though he did not know it, Bilbo (and Gandalf) had thought him the best hobbit in the Shire. He thought he had come to the end of his adventure, and a terrible end, but the thought hardened him. He found himself stiffening, as if for a final spring; he no longer felt limp like a helpless prey.
> I.8


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## Richard (Oct 12, 2004)

Gandalf had some knowledge of the character of hobbits during the Fell Winter when the hobbits were put to the test. Richard


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## greypilgrim (Oct 13, 2004)

Gandalf had been visiting the Shire for quite some time judging by his reputation for fireworks and sending adventuresome hobbits on "mad adventures." He seemed to have known Bilbo's mother Belladonna, and had in fact been keeping an eye on Bilbo for quite some time, seeing that he had a strong "Tookish" side and other qualities of interest.
~Gildor

Gandalf wanted to deal with Smaug...the dwarves needed a 14th man...Gandalf wanted to take the stealthy approach..(etc.) So it was the (adventurous) "Tookishness" in him, inquisitiveness along with courage and good heart, that made G. pick Bilbo. That makes sense, since most other hobbits were content to stay in the shire. Now it all adds up!


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## Bergil (Oct 25, 2004)

I think Gandalf chose Bilbo because he knew Bilbo would always go on adventures, for a few days and than return. All of the hobbits thought this was quite "queer" because none of them ventured out themself. Another reason was the hobbits stealthness. Only a hobbit could venture into a dragon lair. A dwarf Smaug would have smelt and heard a mile off. But this hobbit kept him guessing, giving Bilbo enough time to get out.


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## Thráin II (Dec 25, 2004)

Isildur cannot be blamed for not being able to cast the Ring into the fire when he had the chance, because we know for a fact from Tolkien that the Ring's power grows ever stronger as it comes closer to Mount Doom and that on the very edge of the fiery chasm *no one* could bring himself to destroy it. It is there that the Ring's power to corrup was at its peak.

As for assistance, Gandalf did not "assist" old Bilbo to pass the ring on using any magic, only using that wisdom which a wizard posses. We can, thus, say that Isildur had use of such wisdom himself in his moment of truth through the presence of the High Lord Elrond.

Just wanted to point this out so that you don't get the misconception (which Aragorn had) that Isildur was a weak person.


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## Helcaraxë (Jan 6, 2005)

Clearly, Gandalf knew Bilbo was a crafty and resilient hobbit. However, he would not have known of his ability to resist the ring's evil, as the concept of the rings and relationship to Sauron was not fully developed yet, nor was the idea that Bilbo's ring was indeed the One.


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## spirit (Jan 6, 2005)

Gandalf thought Bilbo had alot of potential, which is true, because Bilbo did!


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## Barliman Butterbur (Jan 6, 2005)

greypilgrim said:


> From "An Unexpected Party"...
> 
> "Of course there is a mark," said Gandalf. "I put it there myself. For very good reasons. You asked me to find the fourteenth man for your expedition, and I chose Mr. Baggins. Just let any one say I chose the wrong man or the wrong house and you can stop at thirteen and have all the bad luck you like.."
> 
> What was Gandalf up to? What were the "very good reasons" he had for picking Bilbo?



There was "more about him" than anyone knew, except Gandalf. He knew that Bilbo had that Took element in him, and more spirit than the average hobbit. He knew that there was more good stuff in Bilbo than even Bilbo knew.

There is some interesting matter from "Unfinished Tales:"

==================================

The "He" of the opening sentence is Gandalf, "we" are Frodo, Peregrin, Meriadoc, and Gimli, and "I" is Frodo, the recorder of the conversation; the scene is a house in Minas Tirith, after the coronation of King Elessar.

==================================

He would say no more that day. But later we brought the matter again, and he told us the whole strange story; how he came to arrange the journey to Erebor, why he thought of Bilbo, and how he persuaded the proud Thorin Oakenshield to take him into his company.

•

(Gandalf: ) Somehow I had been attracted by Bilbo long before, as a child, and a young hobbit: he had not quite come of age when I had last seen him. He had stayed in my mind ever since, with his eagerness and his bright eyes, and his love of tales, and his questions about the wide world outside the Shire. As soon as I entered the Shire I heard news of him. He was getting talked about, it seemed. Both his parents had died early for Shire-folk, at about eighty; and he had never married. He was already growing a bit queer, they said, and went off for days by himself. He could be seen talking to strangers, even Dwarves.

"Even Dwarves!' Suddenly in my mind these three things came together: the great Dragon with his lust, and his keen hearing and scent; the sturdy heavy-booted Dwarves with their old burning grudge; and the quick, soft-footed Hobbit, sick at heart (I guessed) for a sight of the wide world. I laughed at myself; but I went off at once to have a look at Bilbo, to see what twenty years had done to him, and whether he was as promising as gossip seemed to make out. 

•

'Off again,' said one Hobbit. It was Holman, the gardener, I believe. 'Off again. He'll go right off one of these days, if he isn't careful. Why, I asked him where he was going, and when he would be back, and I don't know he says; and then he looks at me queerly. It depends if I meet any, Holman, he says. It's the Elves New Year tomorrow! A pity, and him so kind a body. You wouldn't find a better from the Downs to the River.' "Better and better!' I thought. 'I think I shall risk it.' 

•

"But that was not enough for me. I knew in my heart that Bilbo must go with him, or the whole quest would be a failure – or, as I should say now, the far more important events by the way would not come to pass. 

•

'Listen to me, Thorin Oakenshield !' I said. 'If this hobbit goes with you, you will succeed. If not, you will fail. A foresight is on me, and I am warning you.' 

•

I do not give my love or trust lightly, Thorin; but I am fond of this Hobbit, and wish him well. Treat him well, and you shall have my friendship to the end of your days.'

"I said that without hope of persuading him; but I could have said nothing better. Dwarves understand devotion to friends and gratitude to those who help them. 'Very well,' Thorin said at last after a silence. 'He shall set out with my company, if he dares (which I doubt). But if you insist on burdening me with him, you must come too and look after your darling.'

=============================

Barley


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## SpankusAurilius (Jan 18, 2005)

Barliman Butterbur said:


> Actually, neither Bilbo nor Frodo could let go of the ring easily — it was Sam who proved strongest of all: taking it from Frodo, wearing it, _using_ it, and giving it back when it was called for with no difficulty whatever (despite PJ's spin). As a matter of fact, Tolkien himself considered Sam the chief hero of the book:
> 
> I know i'm a little late on this one, but I have a small personal matter to interject....
> I feel that the person whom the ring had the least affect on was none other than Tom Bombadil... he took the ring, put it on, flicked it in the air and handed it back to frodo... (though I don't doubt that Sam was the hero of the book)
> ...


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## baragund (Jan 18, 2005)

Also Spankus, you point out where Frodo hands over the Ring to Tom with seemingly no problem at all. Could that have been due to some influence by Tom, an overlooked instance of exceptionally strong character by Frodo, or an unexplained inconsistency in the Ring's universal ability to corrupt/enslave those who carry it?


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## Akallabeth (Jan 18, 2005)

I think, Baragund, that the ease with which Frodo handed the Ring to Bombadil is due to an influence by Bombadil. Tom asks, or rather commands, it seems, Frodo to show him the Ring. Without a thought, Frodo hands it to him. And yet when Gandalf tosses the Ring into Frodo's small fire, Frodo is just a tad perturbed:


> To Frodo's astonishment and *distress* the wizard threw it suddenly into a glowing corner of the fire. _(The Shadow of the Past)_


And just a few weeks after the rendezvous with Bombadil, Frodo again shows a dislike of showing the Ring:


> There was a hush, and all turned their eyes on Frodo. He was shaken by a sudden shame and fear; and *he felt a great reluctance to reveal the Ring*, and a loathing of its touch._ (The Council of Elrond)_


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