# Where are all the Nazgûl?



## Alcuin (Jul 26, 2006)

The day of the Battle of Pelennor Fields, during which the Witch-king met his end, is the same day that Sam rescued Frodo from Cirith Ungol. On the same day, “Thranduil repels the forces of Dol Guldur” in battle in Mirkwood, and a second assault was launched from Dol Guldur on Lórien. (See “Appendix B”, “The Tale of Years” for March 15.)

When Sam and Frodo escaped the Watchers at the Gate, the gate collapsed, and a winged Nazgûl “came dropping like a bolt …, rending the clouds with a ghastly shriek.” The two hobbits fled round a bend, and soon caught glimpse of the Nazgûl and his mount “Perching … on the wall beside the ruined gate.” Soon after, “Day was coming again in the world outside [Mordor], and … the Sun was climbing over the eastern rim of Middle-earth.” After some time moving, “Frodo paused. ‘There’s a Black Rider over us,’ he said. ‘I can feel it…’” The clouds are driven back by a southerly wind, and they saw “a black speck … growing, until it plunged into the dark canopy and passed high above them. As it went it sent out a long shrill cry, the voice of a Nazgûl; … it was a cry of woe and dismay… The Lord of the Ringwraiths had met his doom.”

The Ringwraith flying around Frodo and Sam is surely searching for them. That’s a Ringwraith that isn’t at Minas Tirith, so the greatest number of Nazgûl on the field there is now eight. Dol Guldur was normally under command of Khamûl, the only one of the Nazgûl whose name we positively know, and he usually had a second Ringwraith with him. Perhaps that accounts for two attacks launched from Dol Guldur, one to the west against Lórien, and one to the north against Thranduil, but neither of these are successful. 

Where are Khamûl and his companion? Dol Guldur? That would make the maximum number of Nazgûl at Minas Tirith six. Where did the Nazgûl at Cirith Ungol come from? Was he left behind to command Minas Morgul? 

After the death of the Black Captain, unless “Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul” is a Nazgûl, there does not seem to be another mention of them in “The Battle of Pelennor Fields”. 

Where are all the Nazgûl?


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## Firawyn (Aug 14, 2006)

Wow that took alot of brain power...and opened up the door for a wicked RP!  

No seriously though, those are soem pretty interesting thoughts. I'd love to know the answer if there are any to be found...*thinks to self how many times a week she reminds herself that she needs to read the Sil*


Fir-


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## Gordis (Aug 18, 2006)

Interesting question, Alcuin.

Let us count the nazgul at the Pelennor.


It is quite logical to assume that Khamul, the Second nazgul, Lieutenant of Dol Guldur, and another one (his companion from DG) were away North, as on March 11 there was the first assault on Lorien from Dol Guldur and on the 15 (the day of the Pelennor battle) there were both the second assault on Lorien and the "battle under the trees in Mirkwood" where Thranduil repelled DG forces (Tale of Years).

Another proof: when the Witch-King was slain by Eowyn, the logical replacement for him would have been his second-in command, Khamul. But it was Gothmog, the Lieutenant of Morgul, who replaced the Witch-King. So Khamul very likely was absent.

I think Gothmog must have been a nazgul. No orc surely, he held too high a position, similar to the Mouth of Sauron’s, Lieutenant of the Dark Tower. Orcs sometimes commanded orcs (like Shagrat of Cirith Ungol) but hardly any orc ever commanded Men. And after the WK’s fall, Gothmog had become the head of the Mordor army with authority over Easterlings, Variags and Southrons. Alternatively, he could have been a mortal Man, but I doubt that in the city of the Ringwraiths a motral Man could hold higher position than 6 of the resident nazgul.

An additional argument might be this: 



> In an immediately rejected version of the passage in which the new hosts streaming out of Osgiliath are described, it was said of the Black Captain: 'He was gone, and the Nazgul in fear had fled to Mordor bearing ill tidings'; but this was lost in the rewriting of the passage where appears Gothmog lieutenant of Morgul - HOME 8


If Gothmog were meant to be a nazgul, then the rejection of the sentence about all the remaining Nazgul fleeing seems explained. 

So Gothmog replaced the Witch-King. 2 nazgul (Khamul + another) must have been in Dol-Guldur, perhaps even three nazgul were dispatched North. 

What about 4-5 remaining nazgul? 

One was in Mordor - just before dawn he flew to Cirith Ungol and REMAINED there in charge of the tower.

Another flew to Mordor from Pelennor while hobbits were running from Cirith Ungol:



> They started off again. They had not gone far when Frodo paused. ‘There’s a Black Rider over us,’ he said. ‘I can feel it. We had better keep still for a while.’ Crouched under a great boulder they sat facing back westward and did not speak for some time. Then Frodo breathed a sigh of relief. ‘It’s passed,’ he said. They stood up, and then they both stared in wonder. Away to their left, southward, against a sky that was turning grey, the peaks and high ridges of the great range began to appear dark and black, visible shapes. Light was growing behind them.


Perhaps, this one was dispatched by the Witch-King to Sauron to complain about the unexpected light.

Then comes the third nazgul - again from Pelennor to Mordor:



> As Frodo and Sam stood and gazed, the rim of light spread all along the line of the Ephel Dúath, and then they saw a shape, moving at a great speed out of the West, at first only a black speck against the glimmering strip above the mountain-tops, but growing, until it plunged like a bolt into the dark canopy and passed high above them. As it went it sent out a long shrill cry, the voice of a Nazgûl; but this cry no longer held any terror for them: it was a cry of woe and dismay, ill tidings for the Dark Tower. The Lord of the Ring-wraiths had met his doom.


This one brought the news of the Witch-King's demise.

So only one or two nazgul are unaccounted for. 
- Maybe one was sent with the news of the coming of Aragorn? And one simply remained in charge in Minas Morgul?


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## Turgon (Aug 18, 2006)

I wouldn't be that surprised to find that there was only one Ringwraith at Pelennor. What need did Sauron have to send more of them? Gondor was on the brink of collapse, its steward a broken man, it was doomed the moment the Witch-king rode forth from Minas Morgul. The Witch-king, as I remember, is also the only one of the nine to set out with the Morgul Army.

Gothmog is not necessarily a Ringwraith, Tolkien mentions in one of his later texts, Maiar who had taken on Orcish form. The better to control their orcish servants. Boldog for instance, a First Age orc, who is held forth as a possible example as a Maia who had taken an incarnate form.

As for the rest of the Ringwraiths, yes, they could well have been fighting Sauron's other wars, not only in the battle against the Elves of Lorien, but also the battle in Dale. Yet given that, in Sauron's mind at least, there was still that matter of the Ring, and at least one unaccounted for Halfling. It is entirely possible that the remaining Nazgul were simply busy guarding the borders of Mordor, acting as winged messengers, perhaps even seeking out the Ring. Does Tolkien mention how many of the Ringwraith headed for Orodruin when Frodo put on the ring? The texts suggests that all the remaining Nazgul shot straight for Mount Doom. If that is the case, then it would make sense that all of them were mounted on their fell beasts, and that all of them were within a certain distance of Mount Doom. Again it is hinted that Gandalf and the eagles come across the Nazgul in one group.

Hm... anyway... not reasearched this in anyway... just some random thoughts. Wouldn't be too surprised to find my facts are wayward.


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## Alcuin (Aug 19, 2006)

After this thread lay idle for a while here, we hashed this out in another forum. This is a synopsis of the conclusions from that discussion.

There were 6 Nazgûl involved in the attack on Minas Tirith. The Witch-king was on horseback most of the time, as he was when he left Minas Morgul: this put him in immediate command of the Morgul host and the Southron forces. The other 5 were mostly aloft. When the Witch-king was killed, one of these went back to Barad-dûr with the bad news. (I’d always thought Frodo and Sam saw the disembodied spirit of the Witch-king himself. Oh, well.) This is the one Frodo and Sam saw in “The Land of Shadow” in _RotK_:


> Frodo and Sam ... saw a shape, moving at a great speed out of the West, ... until it plunged like ... into the dark canopy and passed high above them. ...it sent out a long shrill cry, the voice of a Nazgûl; but this cry no longer held any terror for them: it was a cry of woe and dismay, ill tidings for the Dark Tower. The Lord of the Ring-wraiths had met his doom.


There were 2 Nazgûl at Dol Guldur. Khamûl was probably one of these, since Dol Guldur was his assignment before the War of the Ring. Altogether, he and his companion launched 3 assaults on Lórien and one on Thranduil’s realm in northern Mirkwood. All of their attacks were unsuccessful.

There was 1 Nazgûl at Minas Morgul. This was the Nazgûl that responded to the messenger Shagrat sent through Cirith Morgul to deliver the news that they had captured a “spy” at the top of the narrower, higher, and more dangerous pass of Cirith Ungol: he is the one that alit on the walls just as Frodo and Sam escaped from the tower. That’s the synopsis of several days’ discussion.

I subsequently asked about a theory by Prof. Michael D.C. Drout of Wheaton College in which Drout proposed that the proximate cause of Denethor’s madness was that Sauron had shown him Frodo’s captured sword and armor in the palantír. I believe that Drout’s proposal cannot be correct: there is not enough time in the chronology for this to have taken place: Denethor was dead by the time Shagrat delivered these items to Barad-dûr on March 17, as cited by Hammond and Scully in _The Lord of the Rings: A Reader’s Companion_, p 608, from Tolkien’s previously unpublished chronology, which they refer to as _Scheme_:


> Both the _Tale of Years_ and _Scheme_ state that on 17 March Shagrat brings Frodo’s cloak, mail-shirt, and (Sam’s) sword to Barad-dûr. _Scheme_ adds the he is slain by Sauron.


It took the Nazgûl from Minas Morgul who went to Cirith Ungol some time to make sense of the confused stories of Elves, small dwarf-men, and “Tarks” (_Dúnedain_ – the orcs thought a warrior of Gondor had broken past the Two Watchers: “‘He’s got past the Watchers, and that’s _tark’s_ work.’” (_Ibid._))


> ...‘Garn! You don’t even know what you’re looking for.’
> 
> ‘Whose blame’s that?’ said the soldier. ‘Not mine. That comes from Higher Up. First they say it’s a great Elf in bright armor, then it’s a sort of small dwarf-man, then it must be a pack of rebel Uruk-hai; or maybe it’s all the lot together.’


It must be the Minas Morgul/Cirith Ungol Nazgûl that Frodo and Sam feel passing over them, carrying a confused report of “spies” escaping from the tower of Cirith Ungol:


> They had not gone far when Frodo paused. ‘There’s a Black Rider over us,’ he said. ‘I can feel it. …’


Hammond and Scully would seem to confirm that, citing the _Scheme_ again,


> …on … March 15, ‘news of the escaped prisoners [_sic_] of tower reaches Baraddur almost at the same time as news of their capture’, but evidently Sauron was more concerned with other matters. It is ten days since Aragorn revealed himself in the _palantír_, but since then Sauron has seen his army defeated on the Pelennor Fields and the Witch-king annihilated, and, according to Gandalf, probably thinks that Aragorn is now the wielder of the Ring.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Aug 19, 2006)

(Sing to the tune of Pete Seeger's _Where Did All the Flowers Go_)

Where have all the Nazgul gone 
Long time passing 
Where have all the Nazgul gone 
Long time ago 
Where have all the Nazgul gone 
Gone to young girls every one 
When will they ever learn
When will they ever learn

Where have all the young girls gone
…. Gone to Nazgul every one …

Where have all the young men gone
…Gone to Nazgul every one … 

Where have all the Nazgul gone
… Gone to graveyards every one …

Where have all the graveyards gone
… Gone to Nazgul every one … 

Barley


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## Alcuin (Aug 20, 2006)

Barliman Butterbur said:


> (Sing to the tune of Pete Seeger's _Where Did All the Flowers Go_)
> 
> Where have all the Nazgul gone
> Long time passing
> ...


Thank you. It was running through my head, too. Very good!


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## Gordis (Aug 21, 2006)

Very funny song, Mr. Butterbur! 



Alcuin said:


> There was 1 Nazgûl at Minas Morgul. This was the Nazgûl that responded to the messenger Shagrat sent through Cirith Morgul to deliver the news that they had captured a “spy” at the top of the narrower, higher, and more dangerous pass of Cirith Ungol: he is the one that alit on the walls just as Frodo and Sam escaped from the tower. That’s the synopsis of several days’ discussion.


That is new to me. I am NOT aware that Shagrat did send a messenger to Minas Morgul. Can you find a quote for this?

If he did, he went against his orders "report to Barad-Dur and to Barad-Dur ONLY". Shagrat wouldn't have sent a message down to the abode of the "Morgul rats". None of Gorbag's lads escaped to bring the news down to M.Morgul.

I always supposed that the nazgul who alighted on the Gate of Cirith Ungol was just flying overhead carrying Sauron's orders to the battlefield or the Witch-King's progress reports to the Dark Tower. The flight route of the Fell Beasts should have passed directly over Cirith Ungol. So, flying over the fortress, the nazgul heard the shriek of the Silent Watchers and stopped to investigate the matter. Then he remained in charge of the Ungol Tower (it is no small matter - the fortress guading the pass empty!) and sent orcs to find the spies. I don't think he was searching for the spies himself: the nazgul had no idea that the spies were related to the Ring - he was not sure what to look for anyway.

What is also interesting is that Shagrat departed from Ungol BEFORE the nazgul came, and according to the quote from the "Reader's companion" given by Alcuin, he made his way to the Dark Tower unhindered. So the nazgul-the new captain of Cirith Ungol- didn't hear any first-hand reports about the prisoner, neither did he see the mithril coat or the BARROW-DOWNS BLADE that Shagrat took with him. Upon seeing the blade, the nazgul could have made the connection with the Fellowship, the Shire hobbits and the Ring immediately and the pursuit would have been MUCH keener.

Also it seems that Sauron himself didn't take a good look at the blade and no nazgul was around to see it in Barad-Dur, so it seems Sauron never made the connection of the "spy" in Mordor with the hobbits hunted by the nazgul on the way to Rivendell.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Aug 21, 2006)

Gordis said:


> Very funny song, Mr. Butterbur!



My pleasure! 



> I am NOT aware that Shagrat did send a messenger to Minas Morgul.
> If he did, he went against his orders "report to Barad-Dur and to Barad-Dur ONLY".



Wouldn't a message given to a Nazgul be sending it to Barad-Dur?

Barley


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## Gordis (Aug 22, 2006)

Barliman Butterbur said:


> Wouldn't a message given to a Nazgul be sending it to Barad-Dur?


Not necessarily  
Of course, facing a nazgul, any orc was bound to tell all he knew (wishing he knew more). 

But it is not the point. I was arguing that Shagrat did not send anybody down to the fortress of Minas Morgul. And I don't think the nazgul who came to Cirith Ungol was previously in charge of Minas Morgul.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Aug 22, 2006)

Gordis said:


> Not necessarily
> Of course, facing a nazgul, any orc was bound to tell all he knew (wishing he knew more).
> 
> But it is not the point. I was arguing that Shagrat did not send anybody down to the fortress of Minas Morgul. And I don't think the nazgul who came to Cirith Ungol was previously in charge of Minas Morgul.



Not nececelery, eh? Who do the Nazgul work for, if not Barad Dur?

Barley


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## Alcuin (Aug 22, 2006)

In re-reading the text, Sam overheard Snaga reported to Shagrat that Gorbag’s soldiers “got to the gate first, and none of [the Cirith Ungol garrison] got out.” Two of the garrison had tried to take a message out: “Lagduf and Muzgash ran through [the gate], but they were shot,” presumably by arrows loosed by Minas Morgul soldiers. 

I will try to look back into my notes to see why I believed that the Nazgûl that arrived at Cirith Ungol had come from Minas Morgul rather than from Barad-dûr (I hope I noted some explanation earlier, at any rate), but off the cuff, there seem to me to be two reason why he should have come from the west rather than from the east.
 Had he come from the east, the Nazgûl should have seen Sam and Frodo on the road; were he coming from the west, he would not have easily seen the hobbits. The alternate explanation – which is a good one – is that the Nazgûl flew in from the northeast as Frodo and Sam ran through the gate on the southeast. In any case, should the Nazgûl see the light of the Phial of Galadriel which broke the spell of the Two Watchers, destroying the gate, he should be looking for the source of the light, a potent weapon to the creatures of Mordor.
 Minas Morgul still represented a “hole” in the security net of Mordor. In other words, it was still possible that the Dúnedain of Gondor might attempt to send through some kind of small force into Mordor through the main pass or the adjunct smaller Cirith Ungol; and from the point of view of Mordor, this latter case is exactly what happened. The city was built by Isildur to control the pass and still served that function. I think it is reasonable that a Nazgûl was left there to command what forces were left behind; however, the counter-argument is formidable: Sauron might keep one Nazgûl at Barad-dûr to maintain command and control over his two fronts in Gondor and Mirkwood.
I do not know when the Chronology will be made available for purchase, but if the citations I have found by Hammond and Scull are indicative of its contents, I suspect that each of the Nazgûl is tracked individually during Frodo’s flight from Bag End to Rivendell, and again during the Siege of Gondor.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Aug 23, 2006)

Nazgul were created by Sauron
Nazgul report to Sauron
Sauron lives in Barad-Dur
_ergo_
Any report to Nazgul
is a report to Barad-Dur
is a report to Sauron

Barley 

PS: Those Entmooters sure are a dedicated bunch!


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## Gordis (Aug 23, 2006)

Alcuin said:


> [*] Had he come from the east, the Nazgûl should have seen Sam and Frodo on the road; were he coming from the west, he would not have easily seen the hobbits. The alternate explanation – which is a good one – is that the Nazgûl flew in from the northeast as Frodo and Sam ran through the gate on the southeast. In any case, should the Nazgûl see the light of the Phial of Galadriel which broke the spell of the Two Watchers, destroying the gate, he should be looking for the source of the light, a potent weapon to the creatures of Mordor.


Sure, but please observe that it was before the pall of darkness was broken - the visibility was reduced to minimum. Even Sauron had difficulties using his Palantir. Then the nazgul have poor vision in the World of Light. So, most likely, what attracted the nazgul to Cirith Ungol was not the sight of two running figures but the shriek of the Watchers.

But in any case Sam and Frodo were running from the Gate in South-East direction (as Cirith Undol fortress is on the North side of the Pass), and the nazgul was either coming from North-East (BaradDur) or from the South-West (Pelennor, M.Morgul). See the map here http://www.nazgul.de/Karte/Mittelerde/Karten/regions/thumbs/imagepages/mordor.html


Alcuin said:


> [*] I think it is reasonable that a Nazgûl was left in Minas Morgul to command what forces were left behind; however, the counter-argument is formidable: Sauron might keep one Nazgûl at Barad-dûr to maintain command and control over his two fronts in Gondor and Mirkwood.


Strictly speaking, till the very day of the Pelennor battle there were several nazgul left in Minas Morgul (Gorbag refers to them and their actions when he chats with Shagrat). Most likely the "Nazgul flying corps" was basing there all the time. It was Mordor aviation base .

The nazgul are so mobile, it is difficult to keep track of them. Sauron being such a control geek would want a report from the battlefield every hour or so, I think. So on the 14-15 of March the nazgul were constantly flying to and from Barad-Dur. And there were only 9 of them, only 6 available as messengers. Hardly any one stayed put on the 15 either in Barad-Dur or in Minas Morgul.



Alcuin said:


> I do not know when the Chronology will be made available for purchase, but if the citations I have found by Hammond and Scull are indicative of its contents, I suspect that each of the Nazgûl is tracked individually during Frodo’s flight from Bag End to Rivendell, and again during the Siege of Gondor.


Yes I finally had time to order "the Readers companion", I am waiting for it. But then I saw there were two more books coming: "Guide" part 1 and 2! Interesting, will there be more unpublished Tolkien notes?


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## Alcuin (Aug 23, 2006)

Gordis said:


> ...I finally had time to order "the Readers companion", I am waiting for it. But then I saw there were two more books coming: "Guide" part 1 and 2! Interesting, will there be more unpublished Tolkien notes?


If the _Readers’ Companion_ is any indication, then yes, there will be a considerable trove of previously unpublished notes. _RC_ has a great deal of things not released before, mostly from Marquette, but also from Oxford; however, prospective buyers should be aware that by far the greater material is drawn from works already published, especially in _ Letters_, and also a lot of commentary by others, particularly Shippey and Kocher. Hammond and Scull have a particular (and sometimes irritating) preoccupation with H. Rider Haggard’s novel _She_, published in 1921, which they continually cite as an inspiration to much of Tolkien’s work. You should also be aware that the references and citations become thinner and thinner as _The Lord of the Rings_ continues to its end, but particularly so with “The Road to Isengard”, “Flotsam and Jetsam”, and “The Voice of Saruman”, each of which is dispensed with little more than three pages. Explanations of (what seems to me) plainly obvious language (e.g. on “The Siege of Gondor”, p 553: “*Reckoning nothing* – Paying no heed.”) makes one think that they believe the reader for whom the Companion has been prepared must be the whole of the confederacy of dunces.

But despite any defects, it is a most commendable work, and quite useful: it is not yet to the stage of a _Variorum_ on Shakespeare, but it is a tremendous step in that direction. I am especially interested in the _Chronology_, which Hammond and Scull refer to as _Scheme_, which should not only provide insight into the movements of the Nazgûl during the Siege of Gondor and the Hunt for the Ring, but also into the nefarious plotting of Saruman and Sauron – until I read _RC_, I had not any notion that it was as involved and complex as it now appears to be to me: as one example, the orc-assault at Parth Galen was orchestrated by Orthanc and Barad-dûr in co-operation with one another, and at first, Sauron did not suspect Saruman of any treachery: hence Saruman’s reluctance to obey and co-operate with Gandalf after the ents laid waste to Isengard, and Sauron’s confusion and alarm when first he saw a halfling in the palantír and then the Heir of Isildur with Narsil reforged.

Finally, they document hundreds of changes and emendations to the 2004 and 2005 editions of _The Lord of the Rings_, most of which are errors that crept in during various printings (e.g., on “The Grey Havens”, p 671, ‘*Galadriel was … robed all in glimmering white* – Here “robed” was correct in the first Allen & Unwin printing in 1955, but by the fourth printing (1958) it was inexplicably changed to “roped”…’ – oh, what a concept!), but some of which are much stronger changes that should probably be discussed in a separate thread, if not a whole separate section.

All in all, indispensable for the true Tolkien addict.



Gordis said:


> Sure, but please observe that it was before the pall of darkness was broken - the visibility was reduced to minimum. Even Sauron had difficulties using his Palantir. Then the nazgul have poor vision in the World of Light. So, most likely, what attracted the nazgul to Cirith Ungol was not the sight of two running figures but the shriek of the Watchers.


Yes, I can imagine that the Watchers had attracted the Nazgûl’s attention; but in _Readers’ Companion_, H&S cite Tolkien’s notes in “The Passage of the Dead Marshes” indicating that it took 6 or 7 hours for a Nazgûl to fly from Barad-dûr to Isengard, roughly 600 miles, giving the Nazgûl a speed of about 100 miles an hour in flight: fast but not instantaneous. If the Nazgûl responded to the Watchers, it must have been roused when Sam first entered Cirith Ungol using the Phial of Galadriel. But since the Nazgûl were more perceptive in the dark than in daylight, the darkness of Mordor produced by the smokes of Orodruin might have worked to their advantage, and the light of the Phial might have been temporarily blinding to them in the wraith world, just as looking at a very bright light is temporarily blinding to us even in the daytime.


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## Gordis (Aug 24, 2006)

Thanks, Alcuin, for explanations about Hammond ans Scull. I shall wait till I read it to give my opinion , the book is due next week.


Alcuin said:


> If the Nazgûl responded to the Watchers, it must have been roused when Sam first entered Cirith Ungol using the Phial of Galadriel.


I believe that no one heard the first cry of the Watchers. 

As you say, the nazgul have speed of about 100 miles an hour in flight. The distance from Minas Morgul to Cirith Ungol is about 20 miles:
http://www.nazgul.de/Karte/Mittelerde/Karten/regions/thumbs/imagepages/mordor.html
That makes less than a quarter of an hour flight. But Sam spent much more time in Cirith Ungol: he went all the way up, listened to Shagrat and the others, fought with them, climbed upstairs, searching for Frodo, sang his song, talked with Frodo, searched for orc-garb and so on. Took about two hours, IMO.

No way a nazgul alerted by the *first* cry of the Watchers could have arrived so late, unless he stopped for a drink in an inn on the way .

So, I believe, the nazgul in question was just passing by - either from BD to Pelennor or back. He expected no trouble in Cirith Ungol when he suddenly heard the second cry of the watchers and possibly saw a blinding light and came down to investigate.


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## Aglarband (Aug 29, 2006)

I was under the impression that the Nazgul had not real need for light or dark... and possibly cannot see at all. But then they are afraid of fire... and can fight obviously...


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## Gordis (Aug 30, 2006)

Aglarband said:


> I was under the impression that the Nazgul had not real need for light or dark... and possibly cannot see at all. But then they are afraid of fire... and can fight obviously...


I would say light or dark made a great difference to the nazgul. They were not completely blind even by day.

The references to the Nazgul vision are fairly consistent throughout Tolkien’s writings, as far as I can tell. 

1. By daylight they saw the physical world as if through a thick mist, people appeared as shadowy forms, flames flared red in the grey mist
2. At noon on a sunny day their vision of the physical world was the worst: they were practically blind.
3. At night they saw much better than mortals.
4. The things belonging to the World of shadow (i.e. other Nazgul or a person wearing the Ring) seemed clear and solid. Calaquendi elves appeared shining.



> "For the black horses can see, and the Riders can use men and other creatures as spies, as we found at Bree. *They themselves do not see the world of light as we do, but our shapes cast shadows in their minds, which only the noon sun destroys, and in the dark they perceive many signs and forms that are hidden from us: then they are most to be feared. *And at all times they smell the blood of living things, desiring and hating it. Senses, too, there are other than sight or smell. We can feel their presence - it troubled our hearts, as soon as we came here and before we saw them; they feel ours more keenly. Also, the Ring draws them." - Aragorn, "A Knife in the Dark", LOTR





> "Yes, if the Ring overcomes you, you yourself become permanently invisible - and it is a horrible cold feeling. *Everything becomes very faint like grey ghost pictures against the black background in which you live; but you can smell more clearly than you can hear or see.. *"- "Of Gollum and the Ring," The Return of the Shadow, page 74-75





> "'Ride forward! Ride!' cried Glorfindel to Frodo.
> He did not obey at once, for a strange reluctance seized him. Checking the horse to a walk, he turned and looked back. *The Riders seemed to sit upon their great steeds like threatening statues upon a hill, dark and solid, while all the woods and land about them receded as if into a mist." * "With his last failing senses Frodo heard cries, and it seemed to him that he saw, beyond the Riders that hesitated on the shore, a shining figure of white light; and *behind it ran small shadowy forms waving flames, that flared red in the grey mist that was falling over the world. *" Flight to the Ford, LOTR





> The world changed, and a single moment of time was filled with an hour of thought. At once he was aware that hearing was sharpened while *sight was dimmed, but otherwise than in Shelob's lair. All things about him now were not dark but vague; * while he himself was there in a grey hazy world, alone, like a small black solid rock and the Ring, weighing down his left hand, was like an orb of hot gold. He did not feel invisible at all, but horribly and uniquely visible; and he knew that somewhere an Eye was searching for him.
> He heard the crack of stone, and the murmur of water far off in Morgul Vale; and down away under the rock the bubbling misery of Shelob, groping, lost in some blind passage; and voices in the dungeons of the tower; and the cries of the Orcs as they came out of the tunnel; and deafening, roaring in his ears, the crash of the feet and the rending clamour of the Orcs before him. He shrank against the cliff. *But they marched up like a phantom company, grey distorted figures in a mist, only dreams of fear with pale flames in their hands.* And they passed him by. He cowered, trying to creep away into some cranny and to hide." – "The Choices of Master Samwise",LOTR



And finally a new quote from the Reader’s Companion by Hammond and Scull, p. 164:


> "The Nazgûl found one another easily, since they were quickly aware of a companion presence, and could hear the cries over great distances. They could see one another also from far away, even by day, when to them a Nazgûl was the one clearly visible thing in a mist". – Marquette MSS 4/2/36 (The Hunt for the Ring)


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## Thorondor_ (Aug 30, 2006)

Well, those despicable, hellish creatures sure were incapacitated by day, as noted in Unfinished Tales, Other versions of the story, ii: "all except the Witch-king were apt to stray when alone by daylight".


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## Gordis (Aug 31, 2006)

Those wonderful, exciting creatures  were indeed at their best at night.


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## Ermundo (Aug 31, 2006)

yet were as blind as a bat during noon hour.


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## Alcuin (Oct 1, 2006)

Edit: - *sigh* There is nothing left to do but clean up the mess I’ve made. ’Tis better to strike than delete, so the errors identified in next post by Gordis have been struck. (Not much left of this post.)

-|-

[strike]Researching another thread, I noticed that there _was_ a Nazgûl either assigned to Minas Morgul during the attack or at least there around 12-13 March.[/strike] (Frodo was captured on 13 March.) [strike]The reason we know this is that[/strike] Gorbag and Shagrat had this conversation shortly after Shagrat’s “boys” found Frodo at the top of Cirith Ungol and Gorbag and his soldiers joined them.


> [strike][_Shagrat:_][/strike][_Gorbag:_] ‘…But see here: when were you ordered out?’
> 
> [strike][_Gorbag:_][/strike][_Shagrat:_] ‘About an hour ago, just before you saw us. A message came: _Nazgûl uneasy. Spies feared on the Stairs. Double vigilance. Patrol to head of Stairs._ I came at once.’


[strike]An alternate reading is that[/strike] the Nazgûl who was uneasy [strike]was the Witch-king who stopped at the entrance of the bridge in Morgul Vale, temporarily aware of the presence of the Ring-bearer and uneasy even when the feeling passed, and he[/strike] sent a message [strike]back to Minas Morgul[/strike] ordering the extra patrols and search of the Stairs.


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## Gordis (Oct 2, 2006)

Nay, nay, *Alcuin*, it was Gorbag who asked ‘…But see here: when were you ordered out?’ and Shagrat the Captain of Cirith Ungol who replied "about an hour ago" not the other way round!

As for Gorbag's lads they set out from Minas Morgul about a day ago (indeed it takes some time to climb the stairs!


> 'Bad business,' said Gorbag. `See here – our Silent Watchers were uneasy more than two days ago, that I know. But my patrol wasn't ordered out for another day, nor any message sent to Lugbúrz either: owing to the Great Signal going up, and the High Nazgûl going off to the war, and all that. And then they couldn't get Lugbúrz to pay attention for a good while, I'm told.'
> `The Eye was busy elsewhere, I suppose,' said Shagrat. `Big things going on away west, they say.'



But you are right, Alcuin, some nazgul (referred to as "they") must have remained in Minas Morgul after the Morgul Lord left with the army. 
But it makes sense: Minas Morgul was the base of the Nazgul Flying Corps. Likely spare Fell Beasts were kept there. There they were fed and tended - so Nazgul were frequent visitors in Morgul even during the battle.

It seems the Morgul lord had not sent anyone to search the surroundings. 
The events developed this way: The Watchers in Minas Morgul became uneasy, feeling the enemy nearby; the remaining nazgul paid little attention to it and only after a day or so they decided to report to Barad Dur and to send a patrol up the stairs.


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## Alcuin (Oct 2, 2006)

Gordis said:


> Nay, nay, *Alcuin*, it was Gorbag who asked ‘…But see here: when were you ordered out?’ and Shagrat the Captain of Cirith Ungol who replied "about an hour ago" not the other way round!...


Argh! Elementary error! 

Ah, well, I will have to find my Duns cap and sit quietly in the corner for a while. I have displayed my ignorance for all to see.


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## Gordis (Oct 2, 2006)

Oh, no biggie, Alcuin, it happens to everybody who quotes from memory.
And anyway, your conclusions were correct: not all the nazgul left Minas Morgul with the Witch-King.


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## Alcuin (Oct 2, 2006)

Well, for good measure, and for the benefit of anyone who stumbles upon it in years to come, I struck through the errors in the post. I left the erroneous text in place so that anyone who wants to see what was there still can: nothing was deleted. 

Thank you for catching my mistake, Gordis. I cannot plead that I was working from memory: I got out my big one-volume, heavily notated paperback copy of _LotR_, found and read the passages, typed in the quotation, and misaccepted who was speaking what in the dialogue.

Thank you, Gordis, for not condemning me to company of the flagellants.


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## Gordis (Oct 2, 2006)

Oh, if you feel so bad about it just delete the whole post and I will delete mine....


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## Neumy (Oct 3, 2006)

I recently became aware of this thread. After reading though it I am more confused about where the Nazgûl are during the Battle of Pelennor Fields. It sounded like there was some conclusion, but I'm not sure what it is. This message will probably start all the wars over again, but I'd like some clarity.

According to what I remember, there were 4 main battles that took place during or near to the Battle of Pelennor Fields: Minas Tirith, Dol Guldur on Lórien, Dol Guldur on Thranduil (Lonely Mountain), and Rivendell. I never thought that the Nazgûl would be at these battles, but from what I am reading above, it sounds like Sauron might have sent a few to "captain" these campaigns. If so, I would assume that 3 (of the 9) would each be leading the attacks. It was discussed above that 2 Nazgûl were sent to these northern battles, but why would he not send a "captain" to the Rivendell battle? Or am I mistaken, was there not a battle at Rivendell?

Now, the Battle of Pelennor Fields was intended to destroy Gondor, but Sauron kept back his main force. He did not "empty" Mordor in this attack; in fact, Frodo and Sam noticed the massive moves of Mordor troops to intervene with Aragorn's army at the Black Gate. From a tactical point-of-view, Sauron's defeat at Pelennor Fields, although was devastating, was not disastrous; he had anticipated the possibility of loosing that battle. If he was defeated there (which he was), he was hoping to lull the "bearer of the ring" into overconfidence. This is why Sauron fell for the faint at the Black Gate; had Aragorn held the ring, Sauron's forces would have so devastated his army, that the ring would not help and Sauron would once again be the Lord of the Rings.

That being said, I never pictured that Sauron would risk ALL his remaining Nazgûls at the Battle of Pelennor Fields. In my quick recalling of the story, there were a few circling far above plus the Witch-King. If we say there were a total of 3 (of the 6 remaining) Nazgûls present, that would still show Sauron's force, but allow for recovery after a defeat.

That would leave 3 Nazgûls for Mordor. One of these could have been diverted to Cirith Ungol and the others could have been used to relay messages and ensure fear remained in Mordor. I never thought that it would have been necessary for one to stay behind in Minas Morgul to guard that pass. It was never large enough to easily move an army through unnoticed and the remaining 3 Nazgûls could keep an eye on it as they watched the battle from afar.

My placement of the Nazgûl during the Battle of Pelennor Fields are:
 1. Witch-King: Battle of Pelennor Fields.
 2. Nazgûl: Battle of Pelennor Fields.
 3. Nazgûl: Battle of Pelennor Fields.
 4. Nazgûl: Battle for Lórien.
 5. Nazgûl: Battle for Lonely Mountain.
 6. Nazgûl: Battle for Rivendell.
 7. Nazgûl: Messenger over Mordor (diverted to Cirith Ungol).
 8. Nazgûl: Messenger over Mordor.
 9. Nazgûl: Messenger over Mordor.


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## Alcuin (Oct 3, 2006)

That’s a pretty good analysis, Neumy. Gordis may correct me again, and while I think the general conclusion is almost what you’ve described, it might be a little different in some details.

There was no battle at Rivendell. Gandalf’s purpose (in the completed Tale) in helping and working with Thorin & Co. for months on end was to dislodge Smaug the Dragon, and if possible kill him, so that Smaug could not be used by Sauron to attack Rivendell.

I doubt that the attacks on Erebor and Dale were led by Nazgûl. I have no proof that they were not, it’s just a hunch. I’d like to say that there’s no evidence for it because it isn’t mentioned, but I’ll refrain because I’m going to assert that there was a Nazgûl in the attack on Lórien. Even so, Dale was abandoned to an army of Easterlings, King Brand of Dale and King Dain of Erebor were both killed, and the combined forces of the Men of Dale and the Dwarves of the Mountain retreated beneath Erebor together with people who escaped Dale to take refuge there and withstood a three-day siege; after news arrived of his downfall, “Sauron’s northern army was dismayed; and the besieged came forth and routed them.” (Quotations from “Appendix B” in _Return of the King_; additional information can be found in “The Quest of Erebor” in _Unfinished Tales_.) 

There were three assaults on Lórien, on 11 March, 15 March, and 22 March. (The Ring was destroyed on 25 March.) The attack on 15 March was accompanied by a simultaneous attack against Thranduil’s kingdom in northern Mirkwood. None of these were successful. “Appendix B” contains a statement that “the power that dwelt [in Lórien] was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron himself had come there.” The name of the Nazgûl second to the Witch-king was Khamûl the Black Easterling, as you may know. He was in charge of Dol Guldur, and had another Nazgûl with him. Because Galadriel was the greatest Elf still in Middle-earth (we can discuss Galadriel vs. Glorfindel some other time), and because she began and helped lead the opposition to Sauron and his schemes to make the Rings of Power for over 5,000 years, Sauron probably saw her as one of his chief foes. Given her native power, the fact that she wore and was using Nenya, one of the Three Rings, because Lórien was a key military and political target, and because there were already two Nazgûl normally posted there, I suspect Sauron’s forces were led by the two Nazgûl; otherwise, there was no hope of victory whatsoever, and Sauron was probably aware of that. (The observation that “the power … was too great for any [but] Sauron himself…” seems to have been made after the fact; in any event, if he had an attack launched, it would be senseless to deliberately fail to commit sufficient forces unless it was a diversion, and that does not seem to be the case.) 

The Witch-king left Minas Morgul on horseback in order to better command his ground forces. He stayed on horseback a good deal of the time, and he led the assault on the Gates of Minas Tirith on horseback. The only time we read of him on one of the flying beasts was when he attacked Théoden and confronted Éowyn. 

Besides the Witch-king, there is a mention of five Nazgûl on the wing near Minas Tirith. That means that either there were five at Minas Tirith altogether, including the Witch-king; or six altogether, the Witch-king and five more. Minas Tirith was the main target of the attack: as you say, Sauron thought that Aragorn had the Ring, and he struck hard and fast to prevent the Heir of Isildur from taking command of the forces of Gondor. 

The leaves one or two Nazgûl unaccounted for. Gordis has suggested that one might have been Sauron’s messenger at Barad-dûr. So the count would look like this if there were six at Minas Tirith:

Most likely count
Dol Guldur: 2 Nazgûl, including Khamûl. Attacked Lórien 3 times.
Minas Tirith: 6 Nazgûl, including the Witch-king.
Barad-dûr: 1 Nazgûl, Sauron’s messenger.
Alternate count
Dol Guldur: 2 Nazgûl, including Khamûl. Attacked Lórien 3 times.
Minas Tirith: 5 Nazgûl, including the Witch-king.
Barad-dûr: 1 Nazgûl, Sauron’s messenger.
Someplace else, perhaps Minas Morgul: 1 Nazgûl
I started down this path thinking that there was a Nazgûl at Minas Morgul; but now, after talking and thinking about it for the past two months, I don’t think any Nazgûl were left behind at Minas Morgul. Sauron’s strategy is extremely aggressive: he’s let loose everything he has ready in mid-March against Gondor. The goal of the March attack on Minas Tirith was to strike as hard and as fast as possible before Aragorn, in Sauron’s mind the presumptive Ring-bearer, could assemble his forces for either attack or defense. Holding back a Nazgûl at Minas Morgul doesn’t fit that style. 

The question arose because of the Nazgûl that landed on the wall just after Sam and Frodo escaped from Cirith Ungol. Where did he come from? Barad-dûr? If so, why didn’t they see him coming? Minas Morgul? Pelennor Fields? Gordis can speak for herself, but I think she’s in favor of his having come from Barad-dûr, and I was in favor of his arriving from Minas Morgul; now I don’t rightly know where he came from, but I am inclined to agree with Gordis that he came from Barad-dûr.


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## Gordis (Oct 3, 2006)

Awesome analysis, *Neumy*. I think that together with Alcuin you have given a very probable scheme of the nazgul allocation.

The problem is that the nazgul mounted on Fell Beasts were very mobile. They could move from Barad-Dur to Pelennor in less than an hour - so the fact that once 5 nazgul were spotted above Minas Tirith doesn't mean that in an hour all of them would be still there and not in Morgul or in Barad-Dur.

I am among those who believe that Gothmog, "the Lietenant of Morgul" who took over the command of the Army, was another nazgul, No 3. I won't give my reasons now because it is another question.

So my count is as follows:

Dol Guldur: 2 nazgul: Khamul and his usual companion

Pelennor field: 2 nazgul: the Morgul Lord & Gothmog - second in command of the Army (the latter may have been on horseback or on a Fell Beast)

Mounted on FellBeasts: other 5. The latter may be found either flying over the city, or carrying reports to Sauron, or carrying Sauron's orders back, or stopping briefly in Minas Morgul to change for another Fell Beast or to feed the Beast and so on.

As the flight route from Barad-Dur to Pelennor passes right over Cirith Ungol, it might have been anyone of the 5 who heard the cries of the Watchers and landed to investigate. I think he was flying from Barad-Dur, because he chose to stop and take command of the Tower. If he were carrying important progress reports to Sauron, he would have continued on almost immediately and Sauron would have learned of the events in the Tower not from Shagrat, but much earlier.

I think of Minas Morgul as an aerial base of Mordor aviation - the Nazgul Flying Corps. Do you know that Tolkien has even devised a cute emblem for them? Anyway in this case, nazgul visited it rather frequently, but no one stayed there permanently, Alcuin is right, IMO.


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## Noldor_returned (Oct 10, 2006)

Let's look at what is definite. March 5:


> Winged Nazgul passes over the camp at Dol Baran


 
On the tenth of March, Faramir is rescued outside Minas Tirith by Gandalf from five of the Nazgul. We know this by:


> ...The Nazgul [singular] gave a long wailing cry and swerved away; and with that the four others wavered...


I checked the dates in the Tale of Years, and it was on March 10.

On March 11, the


> First Assault on Lorien


is made. We do not know definitely that any Nazgil are present, although four (including the Witch-king) were not at Gondor the day before. On March 12, the


> Ents defeat the invaders of Rohan


, so that is another battle, possibly with Nazgul present. From here on:

March 13:


> The Pelennor is overrun



March 15:


> The Witch-king breaks the Gates of the City...Battle of the Pelennor...Battle under the trees in Mirkwood; Thranduil repels the forces of Dol Guldur. Second assault on Lorien



March 17:


> Battle of Dale



March 22:


> Third assault on Lorien



March 25:


> The host is surrounded on the slag-hills...Downfall of Barad-dur and passing of Sauron



March 27:


> Bard II and Thorin III Stonehelm drive the enemy from Dale



Okay, now for process of elimination. On March 15, the Nazgul at the Pelennor are the Witch-king, and if Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul is a Nazgul he too was present. In the chapter _The Siege of Gondor _it says:


> out of the dim sky fell the winged shadows, tha Nazgul stooping to the kill.


That means there is at least one more, because at the time the Gate is broken, the Witch-king is upon a horse, and calls his winged beast when he leaves the Gate. Therefore, at least three Nazgul (assuming Gothmog is counted) are present. Further on, it says:


> The Nazgul came again, and as their Dark Lord [Witch-king] now grew and put forth his strength, so their voices, which uttered only his will and his malice, were filled with evil and horror


A bit more is said of how everyone despaired when they flew overhead, but nothing else is known for the Battle of the Pelennor. I think it is safe to assume that there were at least four Nazgul including the Witch-king present, for Sauron would not wish his main attack on Men to fail, whereas he made several assaults on Lorien.

On this day, the first and last attack on the Silvan elves of Mirkwood is made. Sauron would not want his attack to be defeated convincingly and lose badly, so it is highly likely Khamul is operating out of Dol Guldur, with the possibility of another Nazgul at his disposal. There is a minimum of one Nazgul there, Khamul or no, for a Nazgul flew over the Rohirrim. It is unlikely this Nazgul led the forces against the Ents, for then the Ents may not have defeated them, although their (Ents) power is large enough that they could defeat a battallion of orcs and Dunlandings, which would cause a Nazgul to leave the battle.

Khamul spent a lot of time at Dol Guldur, and so he could possibly be there, and the other one Nazgul sent out to him. The destruction of Dol Guldur wasn't until March 28, three days after the destruction of the Ring. Why, when Thranduil defeated the forces thirteen days earlier? There was no longer a mighty power there to fend off any attack made on the tower. Evidence of this: in Appendix B it says that


> when the Shadow passed...They took Dol Guldur


 
The same can be said for the Battle of Dale. It would take large numbers of orcs to defeat all the men and dwarves of Dale and Erebor, and also drive them into the mountain for a siege of 10 days. The forces of evil present managed to keep the dwarves and men inside for over a week, after which time they were defeated. The defeat of them occurred two days after Gollum fell into Mt. Doom with the Ring. So, A Nazgul was most likely at Dale too, which explains the sudden loss of strength there. Appenix B has written that at the Battle of Dale was


> a host of the allies of Sauron


, later identified as Easterlings, although there is also


> Sauron's northern army


. An army, that is fighting a key battle, under the command of an orc or man? I doubt it. I sense the presence of a Nazgul

Let us now examine the Battle before the Gates of Mordor. Aragorn and Gandalf looked upon Minas Morgul and saw that it:


> was dark and lifeless; for the Orcs and lesser creatures of Mordor that had dwelt there had been destroyed in battle, and the Nazgul were abroad.


So, there were no Nazgul at Minas Morgul on March 19. Where are the eight remaining Nazgul? Barad-dur, receiving a final order? Or, were there four at Barad-Dur, with four abroad at Dol Guldur and Dale, two each respectively?
The combination of numbers can be altered, but some must be around Mordor, for there were Nazgul present when the Gate opened. Before that in fact, for from March 23 onwards,


> the Nazgul came and followed every move of the army...and though the Ringwraiths did not yet stoop low upon their foes and were silent


And now, for the final piece of evidence that says where the Nazgul were, on the date of March 25, when the ring is destroyed. At this point, Thranduil has defeated the forces of Dol Guldur and the forces at Erebor are under siege. Aragorn and his army are outside the Gates of Mordor:


> And as they stood they saw all the Nazgul gathered together, hovering above the Towers of the Teeth like vultures


 
So, in conclusion: It is definite that all eight Nazgul were at the Gates of Mordor, and that at least three were at the Battle of the Pelennor, leaving six unknown. One was on the other side of Rohan, so at the most there were five more not given. I believe that one or two more were at Gondor, making three or four not placed. One might have been a messenger to Sauron, with two more at Mirkwood and Dale, one each. The combinations of the numbers can be altered, but there is little to differ upon.


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## Noldor_returned (Oct 22, 2006)

Upon further reading, I discovered the definite whereabouts of some more Nazgul. On the day of the Pelennor Fields, which coincides with when Sam and Frodo escape Cirith Ungol, a Nazgul is overhead, trying to follow/find them.

Also, several times Gandalf mentions the Nazgul are abroad between the Pelennor and riding to the Black Gate. Possibly Mirkwood and other sites where battles had been taking place/ were due to take place.


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