# Geography Fail



## Firawyn (May 15, 2020)

Alright, so while I adore Tolkien, and I realize that he is one of the great Masters of Epic Fantasy, it bothers me to the end of time how utterly buggered the geography of Middle Earth. The guy planned languages down to the grammar, species down to the generations and class systems, and even the freaking weather patterns, but he couldn't be bothered to take a few hours out of his life and read a single earth science book to gain enough of an understanding about geography to make a realistic _map_ before he started to draw out middle earth? I find it boggling. 

This guy makes all the points regarding exactly _how screwed _up Middle Earth is, if you don't already realize, though the questions I'm bringing up for discussion are not if it is (it is, that's not a question!) but rather the following ones:

1) Why do you think that Tolkien, as detail oriented as he was, so massively dropped the ball on this one area when he developed Middle Earth? 

2) How might the story of Lord of the Rings, so focused on Mordor, been different if the Geography of Middle Earth was more realistic, given that that a) Mt. Doom would have had difficulty existing, b) the mountain range around Mordor wouldn't have existed, at least not in entirety, and in consequence c) the inhospitable environment that made Mordor, _Mordor_ would not have been in play? There would have been no winding stair, no place for Shelob to be chilling out... I mean assuming the Ring was even made, somehow, without Mt. Doom, where would it have been destroyed? 

Thoughts, ideas, theories... go!


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## Alcuin (May 15, 2020)

Though proposed by Alfred Wegener in 1912, plate tectonics was widely rejected by geologists until the 1960s. As I understand matters, it wasn’t until the discovery of the Mid-Atlantic Ridge in the late 1940s that scientists began to understand that the odd conformity of the coast of eastern South America with western Africa was more than coincidence. Even then, it took another twenty years for to piece together some idea of the mechanisms driving continental drift. 

_The Lord of the Rings_ was written beginning the end of 1937 until the end of 1955. The striking thing in the tale is its attention to language and the history of language, Tolkien’s philosophical and academic specialty, which gives the story its unique sense of reality, in addition to Tolkien’s outstanding technique of writing about such details of natural phenomena such as weather, botany, and so on: he was himself very observant of the world we inhabit, which is reflected in his subcreation. 

If it’s any solace to you, Tolkien doesn’t give much thought to the economics underlying his world, either. And while he toys with technological advancement (the flying machines of Númenor, for instance, are briefly mentioned in his notes recounted in _Lost Tales_), technology after 65 centuries stands at the end of the Third Age essentially where it stood at the end of the First Age. It would seem that the only advancements were horticultural: pipeweed in the Shire and Gondor, and athelas in scattered patches west of Anduin and the Misty Mountains, both presumably brought from Númenor. Perhaps we can explain this internally to the tale as a side effect of the Rings of Power: forestalling forward “progress”, as we would call it. 

If the geography of Middle-earth bothers you mightily, however, put the blame on Morgoth. He raised the Misty Mountains to complicate Oromë’s ventures, and the mountains of Thangorodrim and Angband (the Grey Mountains and the east-west line of the northernmost Misty Mountains) as part of his defenses; we might also suggest that Mordor and its confines were also so contrived. As for the position of Orodruin, well, it took decades for people to come to understand that Yellowstone Caldera is a real volcano almost midpoint in North America; and exactly why there is a rising mantle plume there (or under Iceland) is still not understood; nor for that matter, why Hawaii stands midmost in the Pacific. 

But I am not a geologist. Someone else on the forum who is can perhaps better explain the real-world reasons why volcanism happens where it does (when separated from plates: the reasons for the Ring of Fire are fairly well understood), or the expectations for the future of continental drift and the rise and fall of mountain ranges.


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## Aldarion (May 15, 2020)

Alcuin said:


> But I am not a geologist. Someone else on the forum who is can perhaps better explain the real-world reasons why volcanism happens where it does (when separated from plates: the reasons for the Ring of Fire are fairly well understood), or the expectations for the future of continental drift and the rise and fall of mountain ranges.



Volcanism and plate tectonics happen because of underlying magma dynamics and Earth's core. Essentially, magma is kinda like a sea of molten rock, except it is also hydromagnetic/magnetodynamic? It has its currents, and these currents impact - and carry along - tectonic plates. My knowledge is not extensive enough to explain Yellowstone Caldera, but Hawaii are fairly obvious. Tectonic plate there is thin, as it is seabed of Pacific Ocean. And since there is a "geyser" of magma underneath it, it relatively easily penetrates the crust. Reason why Hawaii are an island chain is that the plate there moves relative to magma geyser, so you get a volcano chain.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (May 15, 2020)

Fonstad, of course, attempted a rationalized explanation, but in Legendarium terms, here's an idea: bake a large pan of lasagna. I don't know about everyone else, but I prefer to eat it after letting it firm up overnight, so try allowing it to cool, then putting in the fridge till the following day. After taking it out, warm it a bit in the oven.

Now, roll it up into a ball.


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## Elthir (May 15, 2020)

" . . . put the blame on Morgoth."


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## Olorgando (May 15, 2020)

To take up Alcuin's point about plate tectonics ("continental drift" was what Alfred Wegener proposed, kind of the continents drifting over the ocean floor. That the ocean floor also consists of drifting plates was the addition), had JRRT asked any geologists of his time, it wouldn't have made much difference. Geologists can also be an odd lot in some ways. They don't like the concept of meteorites, which is why Meteor Crater in Arizona was considered to be of volcanic origin for a ridiculously long time; some nutters (among professional "geo"logists of earlier times!) even claimed that those gigantic craters on the moon had been caused by volcanism.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (May 15, 2020)

I believe there is evidence of that, but I'm too lazy to check.


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## Olorgando (May 15, 2020)

A very long time ago, there was certainly volcanism on the moon (or much larger Mars) too. But we're talking billions of years ago. Likely 99% plus small change of all craters on the moon are of meteorite / asteroid origin. Both the moon and Mars have cooled off too far for any plate tectonics to still occur, or to have magma - Mars might still have some, but nothing that could break the surface anymore.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (May 15, 2020)

Oh, no argument there.


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## Erestor Arcamen (May 15, 2020)

They've discovered one active fault zone on Mars so far. The largest marsquakes detected have been what would be magnitude 3-4 quakes on earth.


> Known as marsquakes, the events clocked in between magnitude 3 and 4, according to data from NASA’s InSight lander presented at a recent American Geophysical Union conference. While the two quakes are small by Earth standards, they’re among the largest yet detected on Mars. Scientists were able to trace both quakes to an area known as Cerberus Fossae, a series of deep gashes that lingers some 994 miles to the east of InSight’s landing zone.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



🎐


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## Olorgando (May 16, 2020)

Checking my paperback version of Fonstad's "Atlas" about Mordor - mumble ...
A shrinking "super-volcano", would be my hesitant guess.
But the more or less west-east (from the Black Gate) Ered Lithui (Ash Mountains) of the north, about 450 miles or just under 725 kilometers ...
the Ephel Duath or Mountains of Shadow, mainly north-south (from the Black Gate), but skewing to the east after perhaps 375 miles or just over 600 kilometers, and then (at an arbitrarily chosen point, where a river running from them into the inland sea of Nurnen emerges) for perhaps just under 430 miles or 690 kilometers ...
the Plateau of Gorgoroth (within which Mount Doom lies, probably an issue for the following), and then what almost clearly looks like a caldera, Udûn, almost 43 miles or 69 kilometers across ...
Those estimated 43 miles are about the size of the Yellowstone caldera ...

Udûn the size of Yellowstone?!?

I think we can dump any concept of Gorgoroth, never mind all of Mordor, being a volcanic caldera.
No plausible plate tectonics her.
To paraphrase Alcuin, put it down to Melkorics or Morgothics … (this *is* a form of mythology with some seismic participants …)


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