# Simallarities and differences between the valar and the Greek gods?



## Elassar (Sep 8, 2022)

I am genuinely intrigued to see what people come up with here, the are lots of obvious simallarities between these two powers. Such as the lords of the sky are both mightiest of their people: Manwe and Zeus. There is always queen of the heavens Varda and Hera. And the next in power the sea lord, more isolated an dwell outside of the abide of their kin, for Ulmo lives in the outer sea beyond valinor and Poseidon lives in Atlantis, far from Olympus. There is also mandos and Hades, Tulkas and Ares and Aule, Yavana and Demeter and Hephaestus. Though the parrelled importance is not equal for Aule is among the mightiest of the valar and Hephaestus is a weaker god. Though this can be said in many cases there is one who I cannot make a match for: Melkor.

Aule and heaphestus are supposed to be together. Sorry typo.


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## Ent (Sep 8, 2022)

Differences: There's no Greek equivalent for Eru (that I'm aware of_ given their predilection for polytheism.
Also of course, Tolkien left out Eros and Aphrodite equivalents. 
There's probably a lot more - but I'm not well up on the Greek panoply of characters.


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## Olorgando (Sep 8, 2022)

As JRRT chose as the setting for his legendarium the north-west of Europe, and *not*, as he emphasized, the (eastern) Mediterranean, one might expect more parallels to the Norse mythological figures. But there is the problem of what of the respective "heathen" mythologies is still "known" today. One large difference is that the Graeco-Roman culture was literate long before becoming Christianized, while literacy and Christianity appeared practically simultaneously in the regions of the "Asgardian" mythology. Every author, Snorri Sturluson eminent among them, who wrote about the latter did so with some sort of Christian filter (much the same holds for the entire Celtic pre-Christian mythology). So, while JRRT had followed his two years of classical studies at Oxford with a little less than two years studying at the English school (with a specialization in Norse), there was just much more "fodder" to be found in the classical pantheon. And as the gap between say Sturluson's writing, and the Germanic tribes encountered by the Mediterranean literates of Julius Caesar's time is well over a millennium, what if anything that Sturluson recorded had to do with the beliefs of Germanic tribes of over a millennium earlier remains obscure, to say the least.

The only "character equivalent" between the Valar and the Asgardians that come to mind spontaneously is Tulkas with Thor.
As to Varda and Hera, as far as being queens of the heavens, yes, but Hera, as far as I know, has nothing to do with "astronomy" as does Varda, the star-kindler. And never mind the huge difference between their spouses: there can hardly be a more drastic contrast between Manwë and that adulterous lecher Hera had the misfortune of being married to!

Which brings me almost automatically to the Graeco-Roman "demigods", naturally Herakles / Hercules most prominently. True, Lúthien managed the most "herculean" exploit in JRRT's legendarium in the capture of one Silmaril - but otherwise???

And last, I don't recognize anything equivalent to Melkor and his followers in either the Olympian or the Asgardian pantheon. Not to be wondered, as Melkor is very much (for JRRT) a Christian concept, the equivalent of Lucifer in the Judeo-Christian mythological tradition. I don't see either the Titans of Graeco-Roman mythology, nor the Giants (Norse jötunn, Anglo-Saxon eoten => Ents!) as being even remote equivalents.


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 8, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> Which brings me almost automatically to the Graeco-Roman "demigods", naturally Herakles / Hercules most prominently. True, Lúthien managed the most "herculean" exploit in JRRT's legendarium in the capture of one Silmaril - but otherwise???


There's Helios and Selene but their sexes seem to have been reverse with Arien and Tilion.

Sauron and the Balrogs, likewise have no equivalent. Eönwë, Ilmarë, & Melian. One could argue that the water Maia (Ossë, Salmar, & Uinen) might find some equivalents but none off the top of my head. Certainly none of the Istari.

So, yes, there are similarities to the VALAR but not the AINUR. And even the Valar have their limits, as was always intended.


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## Elassar (Sep 8, 2022)

There are minor Greek gods that have simallarities with some of these dark forces. For me Sauron strikes a resemblance of Prometheus and morgoth of Kronos.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 8, 2022)

These questions have been argued for ages, including on this forum; here's an early one:









Comparison of Greek Mythology


The past few weeks I have been looking over the Greek Gods and Goddesses. It has stricken me that Tolkien based many of his Maiar and Valar on them. I have come to these conclusions: Manwe is NOT Zeus. Zeus was hated by the other Gods. Zeus overthrew his father (which would be Iluvatar to...




www.thetolkienforum.com





Tolkien used Norse mythology and texts, as is well-known, leading some people to downplay or even deny other influences, but he himself said that he turned to several different mythological sources-- including the Greek -- when trying to invent a "mythology for England".

Here's an example: a "divine" character who "appears. . .staff in hand and broad-brimmed traveler's hat. . .it is his part to appear suddenly beside the traveler and help and guide him with good advice. . .His virtue lay in his speed and his wits, not in his strength. . .patron of thieves, as well as the averter of evil . . .It was good luck to meet him . . .among the gods he is not great, but rather their clever servant . . .used to take messages to mankind. . .he was essentially the god of simple people". Tolkien describing Gandalf? No, it's classicist W.K.C. Guthrie on Hermes. Ascribing it to coincidence would present difficulties, and I think is unnecessary, as "messenger-gods" appear in many mythologies.

With Eru, at least so far as the monotheistic conception goes, we have to keep in mind a sort of double vision among the Greeks; yes, there is the Pantheon, and Greeks used "By the Twelve!" as a common exclamation, but we have many texts referring to _Theos _-- singular. It could be argued with some validity that this idea comes from the elite writers of the Classical Age, but the idea seems to have been present from early times; IIRC somewhere in Homer Zeus implies that he could, at any time, pull all the gods up into himself, like a chain, which would make them the same sort of emanations from the singular god that the Valar are from Eru.

This double perspective is a common mythological/theological idea -- Krishna and other gods being avatars of Vishnu in Hinduism, or the Trinity in Christianity, being a couple of examples.


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## Ent (Sep 8, 2022)

"That which has been is that which will be, And that which has been done is that which will be done. So there is *nothing* *new* under the sun."


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 9, 2022)

Looking (very lightly) into Zoroastrianism, the hierarchy seems to hold some parallels to Middle-Earth cosmology.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 9, 2022)

Yes, and you might be interested in Shippey's discussion of the Manichean/Boethian dichotomy in Tolkien, especially about the Ring.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Sep 10, 2022)

I have often felt that some places in Tolkien's works could also have been inspired by Greek Mythology. For example, it could be possible that the Elysian Fields were a sort of parallel to Valinor (but with differences, of course).


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Sep 10, 2022)

If one considers Greek mythology mixed in with Tolkien's works, the marriages between the Valar are quite different. One might say that Hades and Persephone would then be translated metaphorically to Mandos and Vána - Persephone, being the Goddess of Spring, which would then be similar to Vána, Valie of Flowers and Spring incarnate. Of course, this isn't the case.

On another note, I would say that Frigg in Norse mythology mayhap has more similarities to Vaire the Weaver. What would then be the Norse counterpart for Mandos, I wonder?


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## Goldilocks Gamgee (Sep 10, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> Also of course, Tolkien left out Eros and Aphrodite equivalents.


I always figured that either Vana or Nessa are Aphrodite's counterpart.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Sep 10, 2022)

Goldilocks Gamgee said:


> I always figured that either Vana or Nessa are Aphrodite's counterpart.


I've always felt like Vána would be Persephone - save that she's not in the Underworld (of which the Halls of Mandos could be the equivalent).


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 10, 2022)

The Valar certainly are more like the Greek Gods than others, having looked into other Pantheons.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Sep 10, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> The Valar certainly are more like the Greek Gods than others, having looked into other Pantheons.


I thought as much. Gladdened am I indeed to hear of this.


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## Elassar (Sep 10, 2022)

🙂


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Sep 14, 2022)

Cronus could be similar to Melkor:

1. It is Cronus who first thinks of stealing power from his father, Uranus, much like how Melkor wished for power and dominance during the Ainulindale:

_"It was Cronus who led the rest of them into the place where Uranus was sleeping and, using the sickle, castrated his father. *Immediately, al power left Uranus and Cronus was able to usurp his father's throne and rule over the earth.*_"

2. Cronus is banished, much like how Melkor was thrust into the Outer Void by the Valar:

_"Cronus was thus vaniqushed by his children, *who banished him to the outer-most limits of the earth, never to return.*"_


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## Olorgando (Sep 14, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> Cronus could be similar to Melkor:
> 
> 1. It is Cronus who first thinks of stealing power from his father, Uranus, much like how Melkor wished for power and dominance during the Ainulindale:
> 
> ...


The differences are hugely greater. Never mind that Eru remained supreme, the Valar who (only in their *second* vanquishing of Melkor) ousted him were not his children, but his siblings. And in some of his writings, JRRT does envision a return of Melkor / Morgoth at the End Of Days.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Sep 14, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> The differences are hugely greater. Never mind that Eru remained supreme, the Valar who (only in their *second* vanquishing of Melkor) ousted him were not his children, but his siblings. And in some of his writings, JRRT does envision a return of Melkor / Morgoth at the End Of Days.


Yes, of course there would be differences. I was only making a subtle connection there.


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## Olorgando (Sep 14, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> Yes, of course there would be differences. I was only making a subtle connection there.


OK, but I have noticed all too often in my wide-ranging reading that relatively small similarities are blown all out of proportion to much larger differences, which are all too often ignored (grasping for straws is the applicable term all too often ...).


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## Ent (Sep 14, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> OK, but I have noticed



And yet the title of the Thread is "similarities and differences..." so maybe pointing out both, however large or small, isn't entirely amiss?


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## Olorgando (Sep 14, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> And yet the title of the Thread is "similarities and differences..." so maybe pointing out both, however large or small, isn't entirely amiss?


Agreed - as long as, if one of the two lopsidedly outweighs the other, the impression or pretence of their being evenly matched is avoided.


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## Elassar (Sep 14, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> And yet the title of the Thread is "similarities and differences..." so maybe pointing out both, however large or small, isn't entirely amiss?


I agree also


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