# Technology in Middle-earth



## Elendil3119 (Jun 23, 2003)

Throughout the first 3 Ages in the history of Middle-earth, there seems to be very little (if any!) advance in technology among the races. Of course, there was the inevitable learning of crafts under some of the Valar etc., but after the flight of the Noldor, there seems to be a halt to all technological advances. You'd think that in the 10,000 odd years of the first 3 Ages, there would be at least a few large 'inventions' or discoveries. However, to my knowledge, there weren't any. What do you think was the reason for this?


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## Celebthôl (Jun 23, 2003)

The Valar witheld it i think was the final, most logical answer, there is a thread or two about it somewhere...


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## Beleg (Jun 23, 2003)

I have pondered a great deal on this point; and have finally come to a hesitent conclusion. 
Technology in M-E seemed to be deterorating with the passing of time.


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## Eriol (Jun 23, 2003)

We are "spoiled" by Western history, which shows a quick development in the last few centuries. Most civilizations did NOT have a quick advance in technology in our own world. Take China; Take Japan; Take India. Sure, they got some advances, but nothing in the scope of Western advances.

There are many factors involved in the Western advantage, and in fact that thread which I started recently about Arnor/Gondor differences is somewhat related to it. The West had some geographical and agricultural advantages that are really interesting. As well, of course, as Christianity and feudalism, which fomented a lot of advances...

Interesting topic, in our world at least.


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## Inderjit S (Jun 23, 2003)

Tolkien seems to be anti-machinery/technology in his writings. Just look at the _Scouring of The Shire_. He also makes a allegorical reference to Ted Sandyman and a miller's son who he didn't like the looks of, in the _Foreword_. In _The Hobbit_ he claims that Goblins created several 'evil things' such as explosivies etc. as their technology hadn't advanced much-yet. (Though this canoncity of this statement is doubtful, to say the least, as this was primarly a tale for his children and he would have made such 'ridicolous' statements.)

Also, in _Dangweth Pengolod; Of Lembas_ he claims;



> The Eldar grew it in guarded lands and sunlit glades; and they gathered it in golden ears, each one by hand, *and set no metal to it*



This shows us Tolkien's distaste for 'agricultural' farming methods and that the Elven culture wasn't technologically very far advanced, and it was problably in their nature not to be.

hehe-Eriol it would be very interesting to have a dicussion on M-E merchantile capitalism (I think that is the term) and globalisation.  One can see this in the form of Numenorean 'values' spreading across M-E.


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## Confusticated (Jun 24, 2003)

Well if we think of technology as the application of what knowledge existed, to do crafts and such, then they did have technology.

I think the presence of the Eldar in Middle-earth is the reason we do not see great technological advancement and industrialization. Men were new to the world, and had learned some things on their own and from te Eldar. I think the men of the west took the Eldar as an example of how things should be, as far as technology. That being more natural and environment friendly knowledge and the application of it. Even the knowledge must have been of a different kind than the knowledge men now have of the world around them. Did the Eldar know how a tree works on a microscopic level? I doubt it, but they did have a different understanding of a tree than we now have, and I believe it was a kind of understanding and knowledge that men in general are not capable of.

But as the elves left men would not have this anymore, and would seek to see things their own way and eventually forget the ways of the elves.
With elves gone men would go about learning and shaping their own way. Men are more self-centered in a way, and they are not as close with the world around, this must be becase they are not bound to it, or perhaps because of the fall of men, they were made to see the world different than they otherwise would have, which may have been more like the Eldar's view. As is said in the Athrabeth: men are quests in Arda.

I have trouble explaining what I am trying to say. 

Elves have great knowledge, but a different kind than we have, therefore their technology (which is really just a word that mean 'the application of knowledge') was different. With the elves around, men learned from them and looked to them, rather than get too busy finding things out of their own. So any technology among men back in the days of the Eldar, would have had that elvish touch... an early technology for men, but of a different kind then what they did come to have, the kind that would include industrialization. As the population of men grew, there would be more reason to start industrialization, and since men did not heal their bodies in the ways that the Eldar did, they would gain medical technology of a different kind, and they would gain knowledge of the world around them in a different way. This is the beginning of technology as we know it.


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## Tar-Elenion (Jun 24, 2003)

"The particular branch of the High-Elves concerned, the Noldor or
Loremasters, were always on the side of 'science and technology', as we should call it: they wanted to have the knowledge that Sauron genuinely had, and those of Eregion refused the warnings of Gilgalad and Elrond. The particular 'desire' of the Eregion Elves - an 'allegory' if you like of a love of machinery, and technical devices - is also symbolised by their special friendship with the Dwarves of Moria."
Letters #153

"The Elves represent, as it were, the artistic, aesthetic, and purely scientific aspects of the Humane nature raised to a higher level than is actually seen in Men. That is: they have a devoted love of the physical world, and a desire to observe and understand it for its own sake and as 'other' - sc. as a reality derived from God in the same degree as themselves - not as a material for use or as a power-platform. They also possess a 'subcreational' or artistic faculty of great excellence."
Letters #181


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## Tar-Elenion (Jun 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Inderjit S _
> Also, in _Dangweth Pengolod; Of Lembas_ he claims;
> 
> 
> ...



Is that really what JRRT is showing? Or is it simply how it was done in the particular circumstance of the 'sacred' corn used to make Lembas?


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## Confusticated (Jun 24, 2003)

The Eldar did tend fields though, rather than always just pick fruit and vegetables, wherever they happend to be growing. I think metal would have been used for this especially by the Noldor. 


Reading Of Lembas I got the impression that metal not being used was special to Lembas corn. But after reading Inder's post I thought it could be both. That it is this grain that no metal is used on it, may say something. Or is it as simple of this grain just being treated with a little extra care because it was special rather than the other way around? 


I think the word technology get misused though. The Eldar had it , but a different kind. I bet they grew plants better than we do and without harming the environment.

I realy like that quote from Letter 181 - that the science was of a higher level than our scientific knowledge (what were the silmarils were made of?). But I do guess the knowledge, and the application of it was different than the knowledge of men. The example I gave in my last post: did Feanor know how a tree grows on a microscopic, or genetic level? if so, I'd not be surprised if he figures out how to make himself a body in Mandos .

The Laiqeundi did not work in metal, and call Beor's people hewers of trees and hunters of beasts. I get the idea they did not have agriculture in the way the Noldor did. The teachings of Aule, Melkor and Sauron aside, is something I view as setting the Noldor on the path to seek knowledge. How different were the elf kindreds before contact with the Valar? Maybe a lot considering the huge differences in culture that came about. But I think all elves would have inclination to the seeking application of knowledge to some degree. I think the Noldor's technology was just more like human technology than the other elves'.


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## Zale (Jun 24, 2003)

It took humans a fair while to start developing technology; from the ancient Greeks - or Egyptians - right through to the beginning of the Renaissance period, there were no significant advantages in technology that I can think of.


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## Nautilus (Jun 26, 2003)

Apparently, and judging the descriptions of various places that Tolkien himself made, the differences between the technical level of various Middle-Earth peoples were huge, almost as huge as between modern world and the Roman period.

There was an article on Suite101.com dealing with the technology of the Noldor; I'll try to post later a link.

During the Years of the Trees and First Age (about 15,000 years altogether), the Valian Elves and out of them the Noldor, being schooled by the Valar, seem to have had a very advanced technology, which provided them with tools just as complex and useful as the modern world uses, but based on different principles and designs(the energy they used, labeled by other peoples as "magic" must have been something different from whatever we know, see the quote on the Silmarils). If we judge the descriptions of places like the Hidden City of Gondolin, there were cities in Middle-Earth far more beautiful, richer and cleaner than any sort of capital in the modern world! (imagine how must have been in Valinor)

Other people than Elves also had advanced technologies, like the Numenoreans and their descendants, the Dunedain(you can't build 600ft tall statues and "enough ships to cover the light of the Sun" with bare hands) and, on the other side, the Orcish state under Sauron's leadership.

But how exactly worked all those, Tolkien doesn't say. He doesn't even describe the exact abilities of the Rings or Silmarils.

But there's another thing with the technology of Middle-Earth:

Wherever a high level of technical development was attained(Valinor in the Years of the Trees, Numenor in the Second Age, Mordor in the Third Age), something horrible happened. Why?

Throughout Tolkien's work, there's one fault he rejects in all beings, one feature that in the good Professor's opinion is the cause of all evils: ambition. Ambition, understood also as the will to be the boss, to impose your will on others. And here's the problem: the WWI veteran thought that ambitious people use technology for their own purposes, in "evil" matters. In Tolkien's mind, undeveloped peoples are preferable to advanced ones, because they lack the means to impose their will on others and steal their freedom. "Rural" Hobbits live a peaceful life, disturbing nobody; "peasant" Rohirrim fight only in defense; "wild" Silvan Elves are barely noticed. On the other side, "valiant" Numenoreans defied the Valar and brought in their own doom(not to mention they got exploited by Sauron just because of their ambition), "warrior" Orcs had lost their freedom and seek to deprive others of their own, "brilliant" Noldor brought their own doom in the wars over the Silmarils. The idea here is the fact that Hobbitish peace is preferable to any sort of conquests, exploits, which bring in the end only suffering. The fact that a Hobbit brought the Ring to Mordor, while Boromir, one of the bravest warriors in the Third Age, failed, was not a coincidence.

~Best regards,

Nautilus


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