# Uruk-Hai's beginning



## LordOfMoria (Jan 11, 2003)

i KNOW THAT Sauruman established Uruk-hais but how exactly were they created. i heard it was half man and orc. i remmenber in the fellowship that orc were once elves, is some elvish apart of them????


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## Maeglin (Jan 11, 2003)

Well yes you are correct they are half man and half orc, which is scary because they eat man flesh and they are part man. But I do not think that there is any elf in them, if there was they'd be much better fighters/warriors, and the elves were transformed into orcs thousands and thousands of years before Lord of the Rings, so they've been reproducing and what not and therefore they are just pure orc now, no elf is left. Thats just my opinion though.


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## Galadhon (Jan 11, 2003)

Hello LordOfMoria

You can find a detailed explanation of how Uruk-Hai came to be in Middle-Earth by taking a quick look at the The Tolkien Meta-FAQ. I hope this helps.


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## Wulf of Dunland (Jan 11, 2003)

But orcs are part elven right? So that would make uruks partly elven as well.


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## Lantarion (Jan 11, 2003)

Orcs in the Third Age had even less Elvish in them than in the First; they were perverted and disfigured by Melkor in his envy and hate, and know nothing but loathing for the enemy of their Master --> the Eldar, althuogh they do not know why.
It's like trolls, they aren't 'part Onodrim'!


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## LordOfMoria (Jan 11, 2003)

ok i get what they are made of but how where they made. i read the books a long time ago and dont remember if it gave an explination, but in the movies it seamed like they popped out of holes in the ground. can someone give me a explanation of the proccess of how they are made?


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## Maeglin (Jan 11, 2003)

I don't believe it is ever explained, but its possible that it gets explained in The Treason of Isengard, I'll have to check.


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## LordOfMoria (Jan 11, 2003)

Oh ok,i thought they just put a man and a orc in a hole and let the orc consume it and saruman used magic to create the uruk-hai. but it never did sound right. Just my thoughts on it


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## Mithlond (Jan 11, 2003)

The orc's re-produce the same way men and elves do, as they have the same anatomy as those two races.
But to create the Uruk-Hai..well, it would be an orc man and human woman, or vice versa..and i dont thik the human side of both those relationships would be too willing to mate with an Orc..

So the way i've always assumed the Uruk-Hai were born was from Saruman capturing human women from somewhere (or perhaps Dunlending women were willing? doubt it) and the Orc's must have raped them..well thats what i think.


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## Maeglin (Jan 11, 2003)

Well thank you Mithlond that gave me some of the most disturbing visions I have ever seen (in my mind or out) in my entire life. And we never hear anything about female orcs, since orcs are like super-ugly elves, and Elven women are usually pretty hot, do ya think that the female orcs are super-ugly female elves? That would be quite a hideous sight to see.


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## BlackCaptain (Jan 11, 2003)

They have to have some elvish in them, even if its only 1%. Cuz Aragorn is a man, but hes still very little elvish. VERY little. Uruk-Hais have to be some elvish


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## Húrin Thalion (Jan 11, 2003)

Oh well, but the orcs were not elves at all, Tolkien changed in his later days, from HoME X, Morgoth's Ring:



> It seems clear (see 'Finrod and Andreth') that though Melkor could utterly corrupt and ruin individuals, it is not possible to contemplate his absolute perversion of a whole people, or group of peoples, and his making that state heritable. In that case Elves, as a source, are very unlikely. And are Orcs 'immortal', in the Elvish sense?
> What of talking beasts and birds with reasoning and speech?
> In any case is it likely or possible that even the least of the Maiar would become Orcs? Yes: both outside Arda and in it, before the fall of Utumno. Melkor had corrupted many spirits - some great, as Sauron, or less so, as Balrogs. The least could have been primitive (and much more powerful and perilous) Orcs; but by practising when embodied procreation they would (cf. Melian) become more and more earthbound, unable to return to spirit-state (even demon-form), until released by death (killing), and they would dwindle in force. But again - would Eru provide fear for such creatures? For the Eagles etc. perhaps. But not for Orcs.
> In summary: I think it must be assumed that 'talking' is not necessarily the sign of the possession of a 'rational soul' or fea. The Orcs were beasts of humanized shape (to mock Men and Elves) deliberately perverted and converted into a more close resemblance to Men. Their 'talking' was really reeling off 'records' set in them by Melkor. Even their rebellious critical words - he knew about them. Melkor taught them speech and as they bred they inherited this; and they had just as much independence as have, say, dogs or horses of their human masters. This talking was largely echoic (cf. parrots). The same sort of thing may be said of Huan and the Eagles: they were taught language by the Valar, and raised to a higher level - but they still had no fear.
> ...



Húrin Thalion


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## BlackCaptain (Jan 11, 2003)

wow. nice quote. Im with Hurin.


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## Maeglin (Jan 11, 2003)

Whoaaa wait a minute, just a curious question here: if Balrogs are corrupted Maiar, why didn't Sauron and Saruman end up being Balrogs? I always thought (though I have no idea why because now that I think of it no Maia was originally evil) that Balrogs were just evil maiar of their own.....accord or will(if thats the right word for it.)


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## Húrin Thalion (Jan 11, 2003)

Don't see Balrogs as a definite specie or race, like elves or ents. Balrog is sindarin for Valarauka, power-demon and in fact, who says the balrogs looked the same? We know very little of them in reality, they were his mightiest maiar and that is enough. Sauron was in a way a power demon too, but he was a little above them as lieutenant of Morgoth.

Húrin Thalion


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## Maeglin (Jan 11, 2003)

He was also much smarter than them, he knew how to talk, he didn't just grumble and roar. As far as we know Balrogs never talk, at least I don't think its mentioned anywhere.


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## Húrin Thalion (Jan 11, 2003)

Oh they must have had the ability to talk, they were maiar! Just because PJ's perverted creature grunts and grumbles the balrogs do not have to. Very few creatures understand orders and command armies without being able to talk. Balrogs could most certainly talk!

Húrin Thalion


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## BlackCaptain (Jan 11, 2003)

No, they dont talk, and Balrogs are a race. They were created by Morgoth, just like Dragons. They were used in the war of wrath, and some survived, like Durin's Bane. And i think only one dragon survived, and that was Smaug... If you look at Melkor like another Eru, because they both made all diferent kinds of things (Eru made elves, men, ents, dwarves [with the help of Aule of course, more like all aule], hobbits), and Melkor made things like Balrogs, Dragons, Trolls, orcs, goblins, and more un-named things. 
Ungulant was a Maiar "gone-bad", but she wasnt a balrog. Being a Maiar doesnt necesarily mean being good. All the Valar werent good (Melkor). So all Maiar don't have to be good. And just because they arent good, doesnt mean that they can be classified as one "race" (for lack of a better word.).


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## Maeglin (Jan 11, 2003)

MorgulKing the Balrogs were actually Maia, they weren't created by Melkor, just corrupted by him. But Hurin Thalion I'm not saying they couldn't talk (even though I did) but there is never any mention of a Balrog talking, yet dragons and orcs talk, you would think Tolkien would mention them talking somewhere if they could.


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## Húrin Thalion (Jan 11, 2003)

MorgulKing, may I suggest reading the chapter in the Silmarillion: Of Aulë and Yavanna? It syas clearly that Morgoth (nor any other vala) cannot create, only corrupt. .These are pretty vital things in the nature of Eä. There is a discussion about that in the Silmarillion forum now, check up the chapter discussions. 



> Ungulant was a Maiar "gone-bad", but she wasnt a balrog. Being a Maiar doesnt necesarily mean being good. All the Valar werent good (Melkor). So all Maiar don't have to be good. And just because they arent good, doesnt mean that they can be classified as one "race" (for lack of a better word.).



Well have I said that all maiar that were evil were balrogs, no, only that Balrogs just was a word for powerful demon, not for a race. It could be a classification of one of his types servants. And have I said that all valar/Maiar are good, no. I don't see why you are writing this at all? I mean, being able to talk, command armies does not make you good, does it? All maiar could talk since they even could sing in the beginning, Ainulindalë! The song of the Ainur.

Húrin Thalion


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## FoolOfATook (Jan 11, 2003)

> Don't see Balrogs as a definite specie or race, like elves or ents. Balrog is sindarin for Valarauka, power-demon and in fact, who says the balrogs looked the same?



Hurin- Only when you said that did I realize that we really don't know as a fact that Balrogs were a race. I think that you just might be on to something, although it's worth noting that we also don't know that they aren't a race, or that they don't all look the same. But they definitely had to have been able to talk, for the reasons that you pointed out.


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## aragil (Jan 11, 2003)

"Origins of the Uruk-hai?" You'll get them, allright, more than you can stomach"

-Ugluk the magnificent, referring to the thread _Uruks vs. Uruk-hai_ 

Sorry about dragging the thread back to topic. In any case, I have to say Húrin, I don't automatically trust Tolkien's writings from HoME, most notably his changing ideas on the origins of the Orcs. The usual Middle-earth canon (as far as I'm aware) is The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, and sometimes The Silmarillion. These works are largely self-consistant, and represent Tolkien's fully conceived designs for Middle-earth. Too often in both UT and the HoME series we are presented with several different and conflicting accounts of how things happened, with no clearer idea of the 'truth' than whatever the Professor last wrote. Since they were never published in his life time, we don't know if even his 'latest thoughts' on an issue would have survived another round of consideration. For me the case of the origin of the Orcs is the best example of this. Tolkien went through several phases- stone golems, beasts raised to the levels of speech, elves, and finally men. However, in my personal opinion, the origin of orcs from elves is the best of these alternatives, and certainly the one which is most consistent with the list of 'Canon'.


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## FoolOfATook (Jan 11, 2003)

If publication during Tolkien's lifetime is a factor in determing a work's status as "Canon", then _The Silmarillion_, published four years after our beloved Tolkien's death must surely be downgraded. Although I essentially agree with what you said about UT and HoME, in the matter of Orcs we simply have conflicting statements published after JRRT died, and we must chose from among these.


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## aragil (Jan 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by FoolOfATook _
> *If publication during Tolkien's lifetime is a factor in determing a work's status as "Canon", then The Silmarillion, published four years after our beloved Tolkien's death must surely be downgraded.*


 Ha-ha but it was downgraded! I only said it was _sometimes_ considered canon.


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## Húrin Thalion (Jan 12, 2003)

And yes, that is in those cases you have to trust yourself if you do not get any help from Christopher Tolkien that has done a wonderful job editing all this together! I trust the piece that to me looks most trustworthy and since no one can know, that is as correct as anything, and from our disagreement rises discussions!

Húrin Thalion


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