# Spear-head formation?



## Hisoka Morrow (Jun 19, 2021)

I wonder it's mechanic, such as it's combination into factual use, enforced by what type of levels of units, and so on. Any source or authorized stuff from JRRT? Both direct or implied information are welcomed. For instance, it's obviously it could be used by company-level, like Isuildur during the Gladden field, or even host-level, such as Turgon's during the Unnumbered tears. Any idea?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jun 19, 2021)

If you're referring to the "wedge" formation (Latin _cuneus_), I can't think of an explicit example offhand, though I've seen it used in other fantasy -- GRRM, for one, and possibly Raymond Feist.

In any case, fantasy is the place to look for such a nonsensical concept. Well there, and in the theoretical writings of ancient armchair historians, and Medieval Ecclesiastical writers, where "fantasy" remains the applicable term.


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## Olorgando (Jun 19, 2021)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> If you're referring to the "wedge" formation ...


There is mention of something like a wedge formation in Book of Lost Tales 2, in part III "The Fall of Gondolin", but it reads more like something happening on the spur of the moment and the heat of battle, not necessarily a "trained" formation.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Jun 19, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> ...happening on the spur of the moment and the heat of battle, not necessarily a "trained" formation....


Thus, does this mean that it's mechanic was emphasized on personnel tactical flexibility rather than commonly daily drill?🤔🤔🤔


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## Olorgando (Jun 19, 2021)

I don't have the foggiest idea. I don't believe JRRT ever described any kind of troop training, for any forces, anywhere. He simply does not give details such as this in his writings, probably because they did not interest him. He had to do troop training during WW I, and disliked it, as per his letters etc.


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## Alcuin (Jun 20, 2021)

From _Unfinished Tales_, “Disaster of the Gladden Fields”:
Isildur commanded a _thangail_ [footnote 16] to be drawn up, a shield-wall of two serried ranks that could be bent back at either end if outflanked, until at need it became a closed ring. If the land had been flat or the slope in his favour he would have formed his company into a _dirnaith_ [footnote 16]…​Both _thangail_ and _dirnaith_ refer to footnote 16 (as a superscript in the printed text), which reads,
_Thangail_ “shield-fence” was the name of this formation in Sindarin...; its “official” name … was … “shield-barrier.” …

The _dírnaith_, … “man-spearhead,” was a wedge-formation, launched over a short distance against an enemy massing but not yet arrayed, or against a defensive formation on open ground. … Sindarin _naith_ was applied to any formation or projection tapering to a point: a spearhead, gore, wedge, narrow promontory …; cf. the Naith of Lórien, the land at the angle of the Celebrant and Anduin, which at the actual junction of the rivers was narrower and more pointed than can be shown on a small-scale map. [Author’s note.]​The phrase “[Author’s note.]” is in the footnote: it was JRRT’s note to the text.

I think this reflects two things:
Tolkien’s familiarity with Classical (i.e., Greek and Roman) battle techniques, as well as those used in the Dark Ages and Middle Ages that followed, and
his own military experience.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Jun 20, 2021)

Alcuin said:


> his own military experience.


Oh yes, even during WWI, combat personnel trained for close combat might be trained with such formation, such as US marines riflemen.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jun 20, 2021)

That's a publicity photo. The only thing a field commander who formed his unit that way would get, assuming he survived, would be a court-martial.


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## Olorgando (Jun 20, 2021)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> That's a publicity photo. The only thing a field commander who formed his unit that way would get, assuming he survived, would be a court-martial.


Yup. A formation like that would have been cut to hamburger patties by the machine guns dominating WW I trench warfare in under a minute.


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## Aldarion (Jun 20, 2021)

Hisoka Morrow said:


> I wonder it's mechanic, such as it's combination into factual use, enforced by what type of levels of units, and so on. Any source or authorized stuff from JRRT? Both direct or implied information are welcomed. For instance, it's obviously it could be used by company-level, like Isuildur during the Gladden field, or even host-level, such as Turgon's during the Unnumbered tears. Any idea?


Unfinished Tales, the chapter _Disaster on the Gladden Fields_, makes a mention of such a formation as a tactical option, though it is not actually used. And now I see Alcuin got here sooner...


Alcuin said:


> I think this reflects two things:
> 
> Tolkien’s familiarity with Classical (i.e., Greek and Roman) battle techniques, as well as those used in the Dark Ages and Middle Ages that followed, and
> his own military experience.


To add to this, his descriptions are actually reminiscent of two formations which were quite common in the Anglo-Saxon warfare: boar's head, and the shield wall. Of course, both techniques were (with some variations) nearly universal, and are attested from ancient Roman and Germanic, to medieval and later times.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Jun 21, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> ...Yup. A formation like that would have been cut to hamburger patties by the machine guns dominating WW I trench warfare in under a minute....


If the machine gun was allowed to get posted in time. Don't forget, if the table allows, bayonet charge could take down machine gun base in the period of Korean War, and even possibly in the Iraq War of 2004. Of course it's another matter the formation is as dense as the picture's, or maybe due to terrain restrict making the formation have to be so.


Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> ...That's a publicity photo. The only thing a field commander who formed his unit that way would get, assuming he survived, would be a court-martial...


Yes, but possibly after the meat grinder of Russo-Japan war at least. In fact, bayonet tactics and formation didn't fit modern warfare during WWI right away. I'm pretty sure even during WWI latter period, some USA marines units truly used such formation, according some German frontal combat personnel witness.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jun 21, 2021)

Really? Take another look at your photo. 

I admit it's no more a fantasy than the other examples of "wedges" in history. And it is fantasy we're talking about here, after all, so no harm done, I suppose.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Jun 21, 2021)

OK...maybe I dissuade the topic. Anyway, 


Alcuin said:


> ...his own military experience...


We're talking how JRRT use his own military experience adapted into his fantasy work's wedge formation. And I thought it's some old-school tactic shown by me that stimulated JRRT to create the such formation.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jun 21, 2021)

I did read the relevant section of UT, after my first post, but was too lazy to type it out here -- so thanks for that, Alcuin.

As far as Alcuin's inferences go, I'd agree with his Point 1, with the difference that Tolkien was probably familiar with Classical _writers _on battle techniques, which is a separate subject from _actual _battle techniquies; but even here, I'm not aware of positive statements by him about reading Aelian, Vegetius, and the like, though of course they may exist.

As for Point 2, having read only a few books about the Battle of the Somme, I can't claim expertise on the subject, but until I see evidence of either shieldwall or wedge in use there, I'll remain -- to put it mildly -- _extremely _skeptical.


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## Olorgando (Jun 21, 2021)

The US entered WW I a bit less than three years after it started (large number of troops only arriving a year later).
By then the western Allies had had more than enough experience with trench warfare, and would have told the US military in no uncertain terms that such a formation (assuming some US commander had thought to use it) was utterly suicidal.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Jun 21, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> The US entered WW I a bit less than three years after it started (large number of troops only arriving a year later).
> By then the western Allies had had more than enough experience with trench warfare, and would have told the US military in no uncertain terms that such a formation (assuming some US commander had thought to use it) was utterly suicidal.


What about taking those special situation such as night raid, surprising ambush and so on?(Excluding the involving number of personnel was as large as the photo or not). After all, we knew that even in WWII, Imperial Japanese would also form such position(of course in getting down posture) to prepare their Banzai Charge(It's another matter each personnel would start keeping distance between each other after the charge was launched), after all, each personnel wouldn't get correct message transmitted if being too distant between other.


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