# The Greatest Maia Ever?



## Melian

Just like my friend Gil-Galad asked us once about the greatest of Elves,I'd like you to vote for whom you consider the greatest of Maia spirits!


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## Confusticated

Just thought I'd let it be known that I voted for Melian. 
I believe she went to Middle-earth for purposes similar to but greater than the Istari. She was good, wise, and she had an enormous positive impact on Middle-earth because in the future so many great people would be traced back to her... and she knew what she was doing.


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## Celebthôl

it was Aiwendil, and i said Melian because it even states that in the Sil, but i did contemplate the other who turned into the sun (or wotever it was), she was a Maia of Aule i think and one of the only fire ones that didnt get corrupted by Morgoth, she was also very powerful.

Thôl


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## Viewman

wat is a maya?


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## Celebthôl

a Maia is what Gandalf/Saruman/Sauron were, they were super human beings, somthing alike to angels, though they differed i.e. some were wiser some were physically stronger etc, they were next in power after the Valar (they were Gods), and they were servents of them, Balrogs also are Maia, that have been perverted by Morgoth to darkness.

Thôl


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## Viewman

Oooh ok thx


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## Tar-Minyatur

> _Originally posted by Nóm _
> *I believe she went to Middle-earth for purposes similar to but greater than the Istari. She was good, wise, and she had an enormous positive impact on Middle-earth because in the future so many great people would be traced back to her... and she knew what she was doing. *



Sure she was good and wise, but what did she do other that to marry Thingol, give birth to Luthien, and give the occasional piece of advice? She abandoned Doriath after Thingol got killed and let almost everyone there get slaughtered. If you're really looking for the greatest then it's Sauron hands down. If the moron hadnt made that ring then he wouldve taken over ME.


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## Confusticated

Like the thread about the greatest elf this comes down to definition.
Sauron, while more powerful could not be the greatest in my book because he was bad.
While he may have taken over if not for the Ring, the fact that he made the ring remains a part of who he was and it can not be looked past. He was evil and foolish, and of no use to anyone good.


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## Tar-Minyatur

If you were looking for the Maia with the best positive impact and I went by your definition, it still wouldnt be Melian for me but Eonwe. What could be greater than leading the host of Valinor? Plus he didnt abandon his people when things got a little tough.


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## Celebthôl

heres a question can Maia's make Maia's? i.e. Melian and Thingol have a child and shes part Maia does this mean she has the powers of a Maia? I know its never written but she was as beautiful as one so she may have contained the powers (or part of the powers of one), so if a Maia and a Maia had children would they produce another Maia (same thing with the Valar)!!!

Thôl


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## morello13

i votd for sauron b.c i thought it was just about power, otherwise i'd probably say melian or olorin


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## Gil-Galad

No doubt the greatest Maia is you my dear Melian.
Of course you did some mistakes,marrying Thingol for example,but as a whole you're the Maia who most helped people and elves.
Ups.There is another reason because of which I think you are the greatest.Because of the Christmas present you gave:a copy of the one ring!Thanks my dear Maia    !!!


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## gate7ole

Melian vs. Sauron

Isn't somewhere in the Sil told that the Girdle of Melian kept everyone unwanted outside, except someone with greater powers came? I think that this implies Sauron. (Morgoth never left his hall, so such a statement cannot mean him).

My vote for Sauron.

And greatest isn't always referring to the good.


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## Gil-Galad

> _Originally posted by gate7ole _
> *Melian vs. Sauron
> 
> Isn't somewhere in the Sil told that the Girdle of Melian kept everyone unwanted outside, except someone with greater powers came? I think that this implies Sauron. (Morgoth never left his hall, so such a statement cannot mean him).
> 
> My vote for Sauron.
> 
> And greatest isn't always referring to the good. *


I agree in a way with you,but greatest isn't always referring to someone with great powers......
It's a coplex thing,including power,character,deeds.....etc.


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## Húrin Thalion

I voted for Ólorin (Gandalf) because if he hadn't shown up in the third age and resisted evil all would have been in vain. Sur Sauron, but what did he do? Get beaten up by all imaginable enemies of course! He was great but he did not defeat an army as superior as the one of Mordor through giving counsels. And though he may have been great his powers were diminished by all his armies and the Ring for in all of them he poured a little of himself and was drained of much power.

Húrin Thalion


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## Confusticated

Gil-galad,


> Of course you did some mistakes,marrying Thingol for example,but as a whole you're the Maia who most helped people and elves.


Why do you think it was a mistake for her to marry Thingol?
What good would have come of Melian had she not married him?
and:


> I agree in a way with you,but greatest isn't always referring to someone with great powers......
> It's a coplex thing,including power,character,deeds.....etc.


If charactor and deeds are included in your definition of a great person (they are in mine as well) why then do you think Feanor was the greatest elf? If one considers his deeds he did as much if not more harm than good. I trhink, a lot more harm.


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## Celebithil

*Gothmog*

I think that Gothmog would have defeated each of the other Maiar if they were to have fought. He fought against and killed many great powers in the early ages of the world, and everyone seemed to be more powerful back then. Just think if Fingolfin could hurt Morgoth what would he do to Sauron and Im relatively certain it was Gothmog who killed Feanor who was a brother and somewhat an equal to Fingolfin. If Feanor was killed by Gothmog and was equal more or less to Fingolfin then Gothmog could have killed Sauron. This cant be specifically measured as everyone has different strengths and stuff but this is how I would justify my response.


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## YayGollum

Yay Radagast! Looking out for Number One! He says, "Okay, I'm here to get rid of Sauron. Ah, we're both immortal. I got plenty of time. I'll just hang out with these cool plants and animals for a while." Very cool! Very smart! Let those other dudes run all over the place, worrying all the time!


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## Melian

Melian giggles.Yeah,the plant guy was great!

Well,obviously Sauron proved greater than me Maia Queen.But what about poor Gandalf?Why so little interest of him?Didn't he old man do enough fireworks and smoke rings to impress you?Or weren't his eyebrows as hairy enough as to strike you?!

You make me laugh bitterly and self-ironically,G-G.Wise Aristotles said that a person should think of marriage as late as s/he has turned 35...I was utterly underaged and foolish when I met Singolo in that forest but such things happen.I could have married Eonwe back in Valinor instead of living with the greedy little Teler!And your proposal I can't forget too.


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## Gil-Galad

[


> Why do you think it was a mistake for her to marry
> Thingol?


,
I was joking with Melian and she knows why......... 



> If charactor and deeds are included in your definition of a great person (they are in mine as well) why then do you think Feanor was the greatest elf? If one considers his deeds he did as much if not more harm than good. I trhink, a lot more harm.


 Yes I do think he is the greatest elf ever.We have probably different view about the harm and the deeds that Feanor did.I do not agree that he caused more harm.Do you see,we have different oppinion about this.It is a question of personal view.


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## Melian

Hey,dear friend,we spent too many posts on this question in another thread! 
And for Thingol---well,I can think only of two assets about his personality:
a)he had seen the Trees
b)he passed some DNA to Luthien(luckily,not too much) 
Now,seriously,he was a good Elf,but still somehow lesser than Melian.I don't mean to offend him,but I can't see how he attracted her.


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## Rúmil

Hard one! What does great mean?

If it means othe one with the most influence on the unfolding of Ëa, then it's Sauron. He got my vote.

If you think great implys good, then it's close between Olórin and Melian. But Olórin direcly caused a Dark Lord to be overthrown, so it should be Olórin.

If you think great refers to the potency of the spirit, then it's a tie between Ilmarë and Eönwë, with a preference for Eönwë because we know more about what he achieved.


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## Felagund

What about Iarwain Ben-Adar (Tom Bombadil) He didnt do much but I thought he was cool.


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## Rúmil

Well we have to know whether he's a Maia for sure before he can compete


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## Anamatar IV

<scratch this>

I would say Sauron...I mean if he is so great that he is Morgoth's lieutenant...


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## Confusticated

> _Originally posted by Rúmil _
> *Hard one! What does great mean?
> 
> If it means othe one with the most influence on the unfolding of Ëa, then it's Sauron. He got my vote.
> 
> If you think great implys good, then it's close between Olórin and Melian. But Olórin direcly caused a Dark Lord to be overthrown, so it should be Olórin.
> *


Is Sauron being overthrown _that_ much more directly the doing of Gandalf than Melian causing the overthrow of Morgoth?
With Melian's foresight I can't help but think she knew that the man who'd come breaking through the girdle would do something amazing that would set Morgoth up for ruin. I think she was working in subtle ways. I can't prove it, but I believe that she knew that her union with an elf would set good things in action and spawn great people for thousands of years to come.
Sure Ulmo stepped in and directed Tuor which caused Earendil, but didn't something even greater than Ulmo step in and help Gandalf. Also, Melian spawned good admit the curse of the Noldor with Melkor waging war while Gandalf set good things in action amid Sauron building his power and waging war. Some of the major players in the third age, those working for good at Gandalfs direction (Gandalf's staff? )... came from Melian's union with Thingol. Though I can't be sure how much melian knew or what actions were taken for what reasons, so this is not why I voted for her.

Now... if we're considering the one with the biggest influence, why not ask who had the greatest positive influence throughout the first 3 ages? I think Melian's was the biggest positive.
Which is why I vote for her.


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## Mormegil

My vote has to go to Sauron. He had a huge impact on ME across 3 ages. He effectively managed to succeed his master as the most evil being upon Arda.
Melian never seemed that great to me, running off and leaving everyone to get slaughtered. And the Istari always seemed a little weak compared to Sauron. 
I agree that Gothmog was probably a superior warrior than Sauron, but for impact upon ME, length of activity, and undisputed evil greatness, the greatest Maia has to be Sauron.


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## Húrin Thalion

And of course, getting beaten up by the Dúnedain four times! Of course he destroyed Númenor but in order to do that he used very much of his power. He then got beaten up buy the Dúnedain twice again, greatness huh? I maintain that ólorin was graetest because he saved it all n the end. Sauron's effect was not as everlasting as his (as everlasting=paradox?)


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## Confusticated

> Melian never seemed that great to me, running off and leaving everyone to get slaughtered.


Can you blame her? She learned from the Valar.


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## Mormegil

> _Originally posted by Húrin Thalion _
> * I maintain that ólorin was graetest because he saved it all n the end. *



Yes good old Olorin. So great that he didn't manage to see that the ring of power lay under his nose in the shire for about 60 years. Also failed to recognise that there was a Balrog in Moria for a few hundred years, and failed to see that his good buddy Saruman had 'gone bad'. 
Yes indeed this is a maia of greatness.


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## Rúmil

I think the reason I gave Olórin preseance over Melian is that Melian was less of a direct influence than Olórin... And of course, in sheer length of material, Olórin gets more attention


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## DurinsBane

Come ON!!!!

Of couse my namesake is by far the greatest of all the maiar,

The Balrog that slew Durin, and the Balrog that threw Gandalf down @ Khazad-dum is the same...... i think 


And even though many of the other members of the poll, came and went, the balrog stayed........ Until the End, or until gandalf killed it!!


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## Anamatar IV

Well a Balrog can't be greater than Lord of Balrogs, can it? And though he was Lord of Balrogs he still wasn't Leuitenant of Morgoth.


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## ssgrif

My vote goes for Olorin (Gandalf) as he's the greatest and spans most of the writings of JRRT.

Gandalf is in the Sil, the Hobbit and the LOTR. (cant comment on Home as I've not read them)

Sauron, I cant believe he's winning! I dont recall him ever being mentioned in the Hobbit, apart from a reference to the Necromancer.

You've got to stick with the good guys.

Griff


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## Melian

Sauron...Really,he doesn'tdeserve so much attention.Personally,I think that Olorin is the most progressive Maia.He's the one that marks greatest improvement.In a way,he's being upgraded throughout the whole story,while others either fail,or remain at the same levelof 'greatness'.


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## agarwaen

Olorin is da bomb!


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## Gil-Galad

> _Originally posted by Melian _
> *Sauron...Really,he doesn'tdeserve so much attention.Personally,I think that Olorin is the most progressive Maia.He's the one that marks greatest improvement.In a way,he's being upgraded throughout the whole story,while others either fail,or remain at the same levelof 'greatness'. *


 \
"upgraded"?heheh.........you are right,but I still think Melian is the greatest.Does any maia opposed Morgoth?Who protects a vast region from Morgoth?Who saves thousands lives with her belt?You.


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## Old Man Willow

Was Luthien not a Maia?


She did the unthinkable in actually besting Melkor himself. It was she who disguised herself upon trespassing into Morgoth's abode and made song which was powerful enough to even control him, put him to sleep.


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## Arvedui

Olorin.
Especially after his transformation into Gandalf the White. He was great before that, but after he had his powers multiplied, it is my belief that no Maia could stand up to him.


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## Myrrien

I was so tempted to vote for Olorin because he is the best but truth be told it's Melian who is was the strongest Maia. She stayed to guide the Sindarian elves and was able to hold off Sauron for years. If Thingol hadn't died it's possible the later events wouldn't have come to pass.


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## Maeglin

oh my I am an idiot today! For some reason I was thinking Olorin was someone else and not Gandalf and I went and voted for him, Stupid, bad, foolish Glorfindel!!!!!!  

But I was trying to go against everyone here that was picking Sauron and Olorin and I meant to pick Curunir (Saruman). Originally he was more powerful than Olorin, hence, he was given the name Saruman the White and sent as the Maia for Manwe, not until his fall to evil did Olorin become greater. And just a side note to everyone that voted for Sauron, he may have been great and smart and cunning and all that but are you forgetting that the Istari were forbidden to match his power with theirs? Remember that they are not allowed to show themselves in forms of power and majesty, you do not know who is really greater.


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## Ithrynluin

It's a three way between Melian/Olorin/Sauron.

I believe that Sauron is THE GREATEST if we take into consideration all his skills/powers/actions. Now if he had been a force of good, and consequently, his destiny other than the path into the Void (not so great...must be having so much fun with Melko there!), I would have given my vote to him.

*My vote goes to Olorin.* He is the wisest of the Maiar, and he has truly proven himself as the greatest, when he successfully accomplished his mission against Sauron.


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## Melian

Yeah, there had been such wild parties at Melko's place! It must have been a great fun ,as you say!


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## Gil-Galad

> _Originally posted by Old Man Willow _
> *Was Luthien not a Maia?
> She did the unthinkable in actually besting Melkor himself. It was she who disguised herself upon trespassing into Morgoth's abode and made song which was powerful enough to even control him, put him to sleep. *


Luthien was 50%Maia and 50% elf.That is why she cannot take part in the competition she was not born pure Maia.Even if we accept she can participate she has no chance to be the greatest Maia when Sauron.,Melian and Olorin are in the poll too.


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## Grond

> _Originally posted by Celebthôl _
> *heres a question can Maia's make Maia's? i.e. Melian and Thingol have a child and shes part Maia does this mean she has the powers of a Maia? I know its never written but she was as beautiful as one so she may have contained the powers (or part of the powers of one), so if a Maia and a Maia had children would they produce another Maia (same thing with the Valar)!!!
> 
> Thôl *


Luthien was an elf. She was not a Maia. Her mother was a Maia spirit who had placed herself in the body of an Elf. Luthien's fate was first that of an Elf (to go to the Halls of Mandos upon death) but she wooed Mandos.


> _from The Silmarillion, Of Beren and Luthien_
> The song of Lúthien before Mandos was the song most fair that ever in words was woven, and the song most sorrowful that ever the world shall hear. Unchanged, imperishable, it is sung still in Valinor beyond the hearing of the world, and listening the Valar are grieved. For Lúthien wove two themes of words, of the sorrow of the Eldar and the grief of Men, of the Two Kindreds of Earth amid the innumerable stars. And as she knelt before him her tears fell upon his feet like rain upon the stones; and Mandos was moved to pity, who never before was so moved, not has been since.
> 
> Therefore he summoned Beren, and even as Lúthien had spoken in the hour of his death they met again beyond the Western Sea. But Mandos had no power to withhold the spirits of Men that were dead within the confines of the world, after their time of waiting; nor could he change the fates of the Children of Ilúvatar. He went therefore to Manwë, Lord of the Valar, who governed the world under the hand of Ilúvatar; and Manwë sought counsel in his inmost thought, where the will of Ilúvatar was revealed.
> 
> These were the choices that he gave to Lúthien. Because of her labours and her sorrow, she should be released from Mandos, and go to Valimar, there to dwell until the world's end among the Valar, forgetting all griefs that her life had known. thither Beren could not come. For it was not permitted to the Valar to withhold Death from him, which is the gift of Ilúvatar to Men. But the other choice was this: that she might return to Middle-earth, and take with her Beren, there to dwell again, but without certitude of life or joy. Then she would become mortal, and subject to a second death, even as he; and ere long she would leave the world for ever, and her beauty become only a memory in song.
> 
> This doom she chose, forsaking the Blessed Realm, and putting aside all claim to kinship with those that dwell there; that thus whatever grief might lie in wait, the fates of Beren and Lúthien might be joined, and their paths lead together beyond the confines of the world. So it was that alone of the Eldalië she has died indeed, and left the world long ago. Yet in her choice the Two kindreds have been joined; and she is the forerunner of many in whom the Eldar see yet, though all the world is changed, the likeness of Lúthien the beloved, whom they have lost.


The only other instance of a Maia reproducing is Ungoliant. She was one of those first corrupted by Melkor (which clearly makes her a Maia) and she spawned many spider offspring, most notably Shelob, last daughter of Ungoliant. 

I voted for Sauron/Gorthaur the Cruel. Over the history of Middle-earth from the First through the Third Age, no Maia had more of an impact on Middle-earth and its shaping. His greatness was not a greatness of good but one of evil.... but he was still the greatest.


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## redline2200

I have read The Sil, UT, and the trilogy, but for some reason my memory is failing here.......
Can someone remind me of exactly who Ithryn Luin is? I remember the name but it's not clicking on who exactly it was.


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## Maeglin

Ithryn Luin is actually 2 people, it is the 2 Istari that we never hear about, they are clad in Sea-Blue. There exact names are not known, however, there are 2 that could be their names according to Tolkien's notes, they are Allatar and Pallando and the other set of names is....I can't remember, anyone wanna help me out here?


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## redline2200

Well I feel like a blooming idiot now!!! Especially considering I just read the chapter on the Istari in UT!!! Thanx for the help though Glorfindel.


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## Grond

redline2200,
Tolkien never definitively set down in a final way the names of the Ithryn Luin nor did he come to a final conclusion as to whether their missions were successful. These quotes show the confused and unsettled state in which the author left the Blue Wizards.


> _from Unfinished Tales_
> "Others there were also: two clad in sea-blue,..."
> 
> and this
> 
> "Whereas in the essay on the Istari it is said that the two who passed into the East had no names save Ithryn Luin 'the Blue Wizards' (meaning of course that they had no names in the West of Middle-earth), here they are named, as Alatar and Pallando, and are associated with Orome,.."
> 
> and this
> 
> "Of the Blue little is known in the West, and they had no names save Ithryn Luin 'the Blue Wizards'; for they passed into the East with Curunir, but they never returned, and whether they remained in the East, pursuing there the purposes for which they were sent; or perished; or as some hold were ensnared by Sauron and became his servants, is not now known."


Yet there is an entirely different explanation for the Ithryn Luin in HoMe X, The People's of Middle-earth where it states


> _from The People's of Middle-earth, Chapter X Of Darves and Men, Sub-chapter The Five Wizards_
> "The 'other two' came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age. Glorfindel was sent to aid Elrond and was (though not yet said) pre-eminent in the war of Eriador. But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinehtar and Romestamo. Darkness-slayer and East-helper. Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion ... and after hsi first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause [?dissension and disarray] among the dark East ... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West."


As is illustrated in these quotes, the Blue Wizards' disposition was never completely cast in concrete.


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## jimmyboy

I say it was Gandalf, since for most of the third age he was the one who was most instrumental in defeating Sauron.

_Edit_ Oops! I just noticed that "Olorin" was one of the choices! Doh!!


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## Beleg

Was difficult to choose between Melian (the griddle of Melian which kept even the Dragons out!) and Sauron. but in the end i decided to vote for Sauron, for though a dark creature he had become, he still was the ruler of half of Middle Earth and was a creature powerful. The making of the One Ring shows that. 
Sauron is definately more powerful then Gandalf that's for sure.


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## Ulmo321

It all depends on what your characteristics of greatness are. 

Olorin is said to be the most wise.

Eonwe was said to be the greatest in Arms

Sauron was the captain of Morgoth

Melian had all of her powers of enchatment


But my pick goes to Eonwe, mainly because I feel that one on one no one could defeat him. He led the host of the Gods in the War of the Wrath and captured Melkor. Sauron was even terrified of him. So the banner bearer of Manwe gets my vote.


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## Anamatar IV

> Sauron was even terrified of him



Well, Sauron feared Turin, too but you can't tell me Gothmog wouldn't beat Turin in battle.

For deeds, I'd say Gothmog. How many kings of the Noldor did he slay? All but one (Fingolfin).


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## Lantarion

Eönwë all the way!!
Some of you are having trouble with those accents, aren't you?


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## BlackCaptain

> Chief among the Maiar of Valinor whose names are remembered in the histories of the Elder Days are Ilmarë, the handmaid of Varda, and Eonwë, the banner bearer and herald of Manwë



However it says about Olorin:



> Wisest of the Maiar was Olorin



But I still think that the greatest Maia was Eonwë, seeing as how he is reffered to more in the Sil than Ilmarë


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## Ithrynluin

Eonwe? Pah! What did he do that was so great? He's all muscles, I tell you! 

Anyway, I am changing my vote from Olórin to Sauron. Sauron achieved so many things through the ages that I hardly see any competition at all. The second would be Gandalf, and then Melian.


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## baragund

I'm with BlackCaptain on this. It's JRRT's words in the Valaquenta that identify Ilmare and Eonwe as "chief among the Maiar".


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## Ithrynluin

> _Originally posted by baragund _
> *I'm with BlackCaptain on this. It's JRRT's words in the Valaquenta that identify Ilmare and Eonwe as "chief among the Maiar". *



Couldn't the title 'chief' only be indicative of the positions they held (main servants of the king and queen of the Valar)?


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## BlackCaptain

Yeah, and coldn't Manwe the gretest Vala save Melkor just hold a position? Er... somethin like that. Chief means best!


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## Ithrynluin

I disagree, BlackCaptain. The passage you cited is no proof at all that Eonwe or Ilmare were the greatest Maiar.



> Chief among the Maiar of Valinor whose names are remembered in the histories of the Elder Days are Ilmarë, the handmaid of Varda, and Eonwë, the banner bearer and herald of Manwë



I still insist that 'chief' refers to their serving Manwë and Varda, it doesn't mean 'the greatest'.

According to Merriam-Webster's Dictionary, chief has the following meanings:

1 : accorded highest rank or office 
2 : of greatest importance or influence


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## baragund

Ithrynluin, you have a valid interpretation of Eonwe and Ilmare being described as "chief amoung the Maiar" only because of their roles as servants to Manwe and Varda. Their roles as "handmaid", "banner bearer" and "herald" sound pretty subservient and even frivolous. On the other hand, you bolster BlackCaptain's and my position by quoting the dictionary. "Highest rank" and "greatest in importance or influence" hint that maybe these two had more profound roles to play than what is described as their job descriptions in the Valaquenta.


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## BlackCaptain

Uhh... yeah! What he said...


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## Ingwë

I voted for Gandalf (Olorin). I think thjat he _is _the greatest Maia because he helped overthowing Sauron. Gandalf is Wise but he didn't use evil powers, he helped the free peoples of Middle earth to destroy Sauron not using his power. sauron wantewd to control the other creatures but he used his Evil magical powers learned by Morgoth and he fall.


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## Aglarband

My vote goes to Olorin. Because Mithrandir was the ONLY reason Sauron didn't defeat everybody. Also he is more wise the Melian, since his influence was not near as direct, and he never forced anybody to do anything. I'm not saying Melian did, she just didn't really do... anything... at all. He was the Valar's wisest way to look over Middle-earth. He feared Sauron, yet was able to defeat him. That and he threw flaming pinecones on Wargs, who else does that?


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## Narvi

My vote goes to Sauron. His cunning and power over three ages is hard to match. And what is more, he had to fall back on his own resources and build himself up from scratch all on his own several times (after he fled from the Host at the end of the First Age, after his fall at the end of the Second Age, etc.)



Aglarband said:


> My vote goes to Olorin. Because Mithrandir was the ONLY reason Sauron didn't defeat everybody.


 
But Aglarband, in your sig you point out that "This is the hour of the Shire-folk, when they arise from their quiet fields to shake the towers and counsels of the Great". Surely Gandalf [-Mithrandir-Olorin] cannot be called the the ONLY reason for the defeat of Sauron, as that would overlook the personal contributions of Frodo and Sam after the Quest of Mount Doom had passed beyond Gandalf's help, not to mention the bravery of the other members of the Fellowship and the assistance of numerous others such as Faramir, Fatty Bolger etc. He could reasonably be called the biggest single reason, but not the only one.

I think the same kind of argument applies to Eonwe - he didn't defeat Sauron (not to mention Morgoth) personally, he had the entire Host of the West behind him. I think we should judge greatness on actions, not titles: after all, Manwe held title as the greatest of the Valar, but IIRC it is explicitly stated in the Sil that Melkor [-Morgoth] was given more power by Illuvatar than any other among the Valar, regardless of Manwe's greater 'social standing'.


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## Thorondor_

I see no credits given to a certain maia who:
- helps Earendil win the fight against the winged dragons and thus save the day in the war of the wrath,
- saves Maedhros, Beren & Luthien,
- first and foremost: - fought Melkor, wounded him, and left without a scratch (can anyone else claim that? )


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## Inderjit S

He was a eagle-not a Maia. See 'Myths Transformed' and Tolkien's comments on his descendants.


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## Thorondor_

I was actually reffering to Myths transformed:


> But true 'rational' creatures, 'speaking peoples', are all of human / 'humanoid' form. Only the Valar and Maiar are intelligences that can assume forms of Arda at will. Huan and Sorontar [Thorondor] could be maiar - emissaries of Manwe


With the note:


> At the bottom of the page bearing the brief text V, my father jotted down the following, entirely unconnected with the matter of the text:
> Living things in Aman. As the Valar would robe themselves like the Children, many of the Maiar robed themselves like other lesser living things, as trees, flowers, beasts (Huan)


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## Inderjit S

Lol. Selectively quoting as usual. But this one is just ridiculous.

La!

Just below the passage you cited;

"But unfortunately in LoTR Gwaehir and Landroval are said to be descendants of Sorontar"

Funny how you missed that.

On the next page;

"The same sort of thing could be said of Huan and the Eagles: they were taught the language of the Valar, and raised to a higher level-but still had no fea"


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## Thorondor_

Inderjit S said:


> Just below the passage you cited;
> "But unfortunately in LoTR Gwaehir and Landroval are said to be descendants of Sorontar"


Selective quoting you say:


> In any case is it likely or possible that even the least of the maiar would become orcs? Yes: both outside Arda and in it, before the fall of Utumno. Melkor had corrupted many spirits — some great, as Sauron, or less so, as balrogs. The least could have been primitive (and much more powerful and perilous) Orcs; but by practising when embodied procreation they would (cf. Melian) [become] more and more earthbound, unable to return to spirit-state (even demon-form), until released by death (killing), and they would dwindle in force.


Descendants from maiar (be it Melian and balrogs) don't inherit the maia status of their ancestor. Even if Gwaihir and Landroval weren't maiar, it doesn't imply that the Eagle King wasn't.


Inderjit S said:


> On the next page;
> 
> "The same sort of thing could be said of Huan and the Eagles: they were taught the language of the Valar, and raised to a higher level-but still had no fea"


This phrase is in contradiction with one just three paragraphs above it, that being the reason for not reffering to it:


> But again - would Eru provide fear for such creatures? For the Eagles etc. perhaps. But not for orcs


Talk about selective quoting...


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## Inderjit S

Anyway, did you even read by quotes? It is useless quoting Tolkien about this or that when Tolkien refutes something, which he does when he wrote; "But unfortunately in LoTR Gwaehir and Landroval are said to be descendants of Sorontar." Like oh-my-gosh.Tolkien refutes the idea of Eagles being Maia in the aforementioned sentence, so giving us quotes about how Morgoth's creatures were able to incarnate themselves doesn't really add your argument, because they were Morgoth's Maia-that the Valarin Maia would undergo such a procedure is not certain-only Melian is said to have done so and she was an exception, the thing is that if they incarnated themselves for procreation then they would become fixed by their hroa, and that passage describes how any such procedure is perilious, unless of course it was for a special purpose, such as Melian.



> But again - would Eru provide fear for such creatures? For the Eagles etc. perhaps. But not for orcs



LOL! Talk about selectivly quoting? This passage has nothing to do with Maia, or the eagles being Maia, it is about Eru providing fea for such creatures. Maia were able to incarnate themselves-they didn't need to be provided 'fea' by Eru since they already had 'fea'-he is talking about whether the fact that Orks (and Eagles) being able to talk meant they were provided with 'fea' like Elves, Men and Dwarves, and came to the conclusion that although Orks didn't have fea, Eagles may have, not that they were Maia incarnated since they didn't needed to be provided with fea in the first place. 



> This phrase is in contradiction with one just three paragraphs above it, that being the reason for not reffering to it



No he writes PERHAPS, ergo leaving it open to his judgement and then later writes-"The same sort of thing could be said of Huan and the Eagles: they were taught the language of the Valar, and raised to a higher level-but still had no fea"-he did that a lot, thus concluding his thoughts on the subject.


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## Eledhwen

The language of this debate is descending to that of a lower school playground. I invite those who have couched their replies in hostile personal terms to edit their posts accordingly.

Thank you.


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## Barliman Butterbur

Melian said:


> Just like my friend Gil-Galad asked us once about the greatest of Elves,I'd like you to vote for whom you consider the greatest of Maia spirits!



First: what do you mean by "great"? "Great" _in what way(s)?_ Answer this, and then perhaps we might be able to proceed in a focused manner. 

I am always bemused by how often people in TTF are concerned with _superlatives._ It's always who's the _best,_ who's the _worst,_ who's your _favorite,_ and on and on. It's all subjective! I wonder what Tolkien would have thought of it all...

Barley 

PS: Be sure to click on the link between the *•••RED DOTS•••* in my sig — _There's a NEW LOTR MOVIE_ coming out in November!


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## Gothmog

Barliman Butterbur said:


> First: what do you mean by "great"? "Great" _in what way(s)?_ Answer this, and then perhaps we might be able to proceed in a focused manner.
> 
> I am always bemused by how often people in TTF are concerned with _superlatives._ It's always who's the _best,_ who's the _worst,_ who's your _favorite,_ and on and on. It's all subjective! I wonder what Tolkien would have thought of it all...
> 
> Barley
> 
> PS: Be sure to click on the link between the *•••RED DOTS•••* in my sig — _There's a NEW LOTR MOVIE_ coming out in November!


Why do you wish to have 'Greatest' defined and limited??

Judging by the Maia named in the poll I would say that it has been left up to each to define it for themselves and not be limited to a narrow view.

Tolkien himself used the term 'Greatest' of a number of charators. Feanor and Melkor for two who could hardly be called the 'Best'


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## Barliman Butterbur

Gothmog said:


> Why do you wish to have 'Greatest' defined and limited??
> 
> Judging by the Maia named in the poll I would say that it has been left up to each to define it for themselves and not be limited to a narrow view.
> 
> Tolkien himself used the term 'Greatest' of a number of charactors. Feanor and Melkor for two who could hardly be called the 'Best'



First: I see Tolkien's works — when it comes to the characters and the situations — as somewhat comparable to a vast complex clock. How could one say "Which is the greatest cogwheel? Which is the greatest part?" The point I'm making is that each element has its own part to play, it's own _unique purpose_ if you will. And I posit that if each element is unique, then no one of them is "the greatest." So _for me, I_ think it would be helpful to define terms here. 

The definition of terms is pretty much accepted as an important way to have agreement on what is meant, and so proceed on to further progress. Furthermore to name a Maia (or anyone else) as "the greatest" is to beg other questions: then how are the others _less,_ and in what ways? And if someone asserts that Maia X is "the greatest," then by what criteria, who is proffering the criteria, and why are we agreeing to them? But — if terms are defined beforehand, then I think we all know a bit better what we're trying to get at. (Simple questions oftimes lead to complex answers.  )

As for Tolkien's preferences, he is, after all, the final authority over his own _ouevre,_ and I would hardly care to differ with his assessments! 

Barley


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## Gothmog

It is true that each element is equaly necessary and unique. However, as you showed in the quote from Melian's first post


> I'd like you to vote *for whom you consider* the greatest of Maia spirits!


This is a subjective question which requires a subjective interpretation of the term 'Great'. Defining the terms of such a question before hand could well limit who could be included in the poll. Eonwe was the 'Greatest in Arms' Olorin was the 'Greatest in Wisdom and Pity' and so on. By leaving the term open it allows for what the poster thinks to be the 'Greatest' aspect of a charator to be the reason for choosing.

This would allow for discussion as to such things as 'Is Wisdom or Pity Greater than Strength of Arms?'


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## Inderjit S

I apologise for the "the language of this debate is descending to that of a lower school playground" which I guess was mainly down to me, and I appreciate that as a mod you may need to put a stop to such personal attacks.



> 'Is Wisdom or Pity Greater than Strength of Arms'



Again this is a very subjective argument. On the whole I think the former is true, both wisdom and pity will always be needed-they are the ends, whilst strength of arms is the means to the end (and various other ends), though whilst strength of arms can be turned to evil, pity can never be turned to evil, whilst wisdom tends to like force of arms be more good than evil, though it could also be used for evil. I guess two good examples of this are Denethor's berating of Faramir for being too kind and wise in a time of war, and Bilbo having 'force of arms' when he face Gollum, but pity winning him over.

Barliman-I guess it is kind of silly how we always seek to list the 'best, greatest, hottest' Elf/Man etc., but I guess it gives us a chance to praise the characters we like the most, and tell others why we like them so much.


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## Barliman Butterbur

Gothmog said:


> It is true that each element is equaly necessary and unique...This is a subjective question which requires a subjective interpretation of the term 'Great'...Eonwe was the 'Greatest in Arms' Olorin was the 'Greatest in Wisdom and Pity' and so on. By leaving the term open it allows for what the poster thinks to be the 'Greatest' aspect of a character to be the reason for choosing.
> 
> This would allow for discussion as to such things as 'Is Wisdom or Pity Greater than Strength of Arms?'



Ah. So then we are free to assign whatever values we like. But in so doing, does that not tend to take us far astray from the values Tolkien himself had for his characters? And is that not the important thing? (It is for me anyway.) And as for your Strength of Arms question, by that reasoning we can ask, in full seriousness, Is Pepperoni or Mushroom Greater than Olives-and-Onions on Pizza?  Which takes us right back to my point: with anyone free to say anything, with absolute wide-open-no-holds-barred subjectivity allowed, are we not right back at sixes and sevens when it comes finally to settling on what is meant by such an amorphously adrift term as "The Greatest"? This is why in the first place I posed my original question to the person who created the thread.



Inderjit S said:


> Barliman-I guess it is kind of silly how we always seek to list the 'best, greatest, hottest' Elf/Man etc., but I guess it gives us a chance to praise the characters we like the most, and tell others why we like them so much.



Now _that_ makes sense, _that's_ a reason I can _absolutely_ live with! Bravo! 

Barley


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## Grond

Barliman Butterbur said:


> Ah. So then we are free to assign whatever values we like. But in so doing, does that not tend to take us far astray from the values Tolkien himself had for his characters? And is that not the important thing? (It is for me anyway.) And as for your Strength of Arms question, by that reasoning we can ask, in full seriousness, Is Pepperoni or Mushroom Greater than Olives-and-Onions on Pizza?  Which takes us right back to my point: with anyone free to say anything, are we not right back at sixes and sevens when it comes finally to settling on what is meant by "The Greatest"?
> 
> Barley


No. One can easily look at all the attributes the author himself offers on each of the Maiar in question and then, based on your own subjective ranking of which traits are greatest, post their opinion. Tolkien makes it fairly clear that he considers Feanor to be the "GREATEST* of the Noldor; yet, based on Tolkien's own writings, my opinion differs with the author. Threads such as this, do not tend to take us far astray from the values of the author, rather they allow us to analyze the author's ideas and form our own opinions. One must remember that in many of the analyses, Tolkien was looking in hindsight, interpreting things even he himself had not envisioned. Tolkien's greatest challenge (and one of the main reasons he never "finalized" his own version of the Sil) was his inability to reconcile the numerous inconsistencies in his own writings between them and LotR and between the various stories of the Legandarium itself.

Inderjet S, what is your opinion of Ungoliant? What type of beast was she? I have always considered her one of the Ainur; yet, she had offspring.

Cheers,

grond


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## Snaga

The Ainur can have offspring if they take a physical form - see Melian. The Sil leaves some amiguity but suggests she is an Ainur.


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## Grond

Snaga said:


> The Ainur can have offspring if they take a physical form - see Melian. The Sil leaves some amiguity but suggests she is an Ainur.


Of course I made up my mind long ago on Ungoliant. I was simply fowarding this thought to spur additional thought from Inderjet S on his fairly strong and definitive opinions on the issue of Eagles being Maia.

Cheers,

grond


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## Barliman Butterbur

Grond said:


> ...Tolkien makes it fairly clear that he considers Feanor to be the "GREATEST" of the Noldor; yet, based on Tolkien's own writings, my opinion differs with the author. Threads such as this... allow us to analyze the author's ideas and form our own opinions...Tolkien's greatest challenge (and one of the main reasons he never "finalized" his own version of the Sil) was his inability to reconcile the numerous inconsistencies in his own writings between them and LotR and between the various stories of the Legendarium itself.



First: It's _*Grond*_ to have you back again!   

Hmmm...we appear to be back to a state of subjectivity: Not even Tolkien could come to final conclusions because apparently, he simply never _wanted_ to stop writing about Middle-earth, because he would rather lose himself in that than have to deal with the sadnesses and horrors of the real world. I can certainly understand that, as I very often share the same sentiment! And so with the whole saga left in a kind of flux, are you saying that everyone's opinions are equally valid (Threads such as this...allow us to analyze the author's ideas and form our own opinions)? 

So then as far as (in this instance) "the greatest Maia" again comes down not to being a settled issue, but simply a collection of various opinions — even to what it is that makes up greatness. This isn't satisfactory for me. I think we need to define what we mean by "greatness" so that we can agree upon the degrees of it possessed by each Maia, and then which of them has "the mostest." 

However — the question was, Who do I think was the greatest of the Maia? Were I to be pinned to the wall, I would say that it was (and is) IMO _Gandalf, because he had the most to do in *setting the stage* for the destruction of Sauron._ Had it not been for that (I believe, at any rate), the rest of the Fellowship's accomplishments would have come to nothing.

Barley


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## Inderjit S

> Inderjet S, what is your opinion of Ungoliant? What type of beast was she? I have always considered her one of the Ainur; yet, she had offspring.



Ungoliant is a Maia, or Ainur, IMO. In fact, in the drafts to the Silmarillion found in Morgoth’s Ring we have an expanded account of her 'relationship' with Melkor, how she left him and became her own master and his from him in the caves. But I am NOT arguing against Maia being able to incarnate themselves-far from it, I admitted that Maia could incarnate themselves, permanently, procreation 'fixed' this incarnation, so whereas the Valar could robe themselves (and many other Maia) they could not be 'killed'-whereas most of Melkor's Maia, including Melkor, could be killed-that is their bodies could be destroyed and their fea could be reduced to impotence. Melian was the obvious 'exception' to this rule. The eagles are refuted by Tolkien himself to have been Maia. True he considered it, but then he refuted it twice. 


Also-Fëanor may have been the greatest of the Children of Eru in potency, just as Melkor was the greatest of the Ainur in potency, but sadly some of his deeds took away from his greatness. I myself feel sorry for the guy, though I am pretty emphatic, though I do say so myself.


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## Grond

Inderjit S said:


> Selectively quoting as usual. But this one is just ridiculous.


Where in any of Tolkien's published works is there a "conclusive" statement concerning Eagles as Maiar or Eagles as higher order beasts? You cite footnotes on unfinalized, developing works as if they are the definitive answer when you know no more of the author's mind than Thorondor or anyone else on this forum.


Inderjit S said:


> Just below the passage you cited;
> "*But unfortunately in LoTR Gwaehir and Landroval are said to be descendants of Sorontar*"


This insinuates to me that you were discounting the theory based on the fact that Sorontar had offspring (see our Ungoliant conversation above). Is it an accepted fact that the Ainur can have offspring?? In Lost Tales, Gothmog is the son of Melkor yet Tolkien struggles with the issue later on in future writings. Melian certainly has Luthien but... is that a special circumstance? Is Ungoliant an Ainur or another Tom Bombadil type character? Who knows??!! Tolkien does!! But he's not talking anymore. We simply are left with speculation (the main reason for the Tolkien Forum) that we (fans) can generate based on the Letters, HoMe, UT, Sil, etc. which are far from finished works.


Inderjit S said:


> On the next page;
> "The same sort of thing could be said of Huan and the Eagles: they were taught the language of the Valar, and raised to a higher level-but still had no fea"


Another footnote akin to the names of the Blue Wizards. Now what did Tolkien call them?? That depends on which reference you wish to use. (Lost Tales or HoME). 

My point here is that no one can make a definitive statement about the origins of Orcs, or the divinity of Eagles or any of these deep matters of the Legendarium which were never resolved. We can speculate. We can make educated guesses. We can debate (it's so much nicer when it is done in a friendly manner.) But... we can never truly know because the author left it to LEGEND aka no work of his was ever published which addressed the detail Legendarium but the Hobbit and LotR. 

Cheers,

grond 

Cheers,

grond


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## Inderjit S

> Where in any of Tolkien's published works is there a "conclusive" statement concerning Eagles as Maiar or Eagles as higher order beasts? You cite footnotes on unfinalized, developing works as if they are the definitive answer when you know no more of the author's mind than Thorondor or anyone else on this forum.



"Conclusive"-what then is the point of even publishing or using HoME, the Silmarillion or Unfinished Tales when everything is inconclusive? What is even the point of quoting from them if everything is inconclusive? One could merely state "Ah, yes well Tolkien didn't published that so your arguments are not conclusive"-a lot of the arguments put forth in this forum would fail because Tolkien did not publish a lot of them. You talk about canon. Well it is a canonical passage which mean Tolkien made up his mind as to the nature of the eagles-that they were not Maia, you claim that I think I know more about Tolkien's mind than anybody, but you seem to think that you know more about Tolkien's mind than anybody if you think you can label things 'conclusive' based on publication rather than Tolkien's final thoughts. You cite contradicitons in the history of the Blue Wizards, and there are a lot of contradictions in Tolkien's works, but so far as I know the idea (explicitly stated) that eagles were not Maia was Tolkien's last word on the subject-therefore it is 'conclusive' since Tolkien didn't contradict or change it, as far as I know, true he may have a unwritten passage somewhere which states that Thorondor is a Maia, but that evidence has not been produced and it is silly to cite from evidence which doesn't exist. Myths Transformed is a collection of Tolkien's philosophical wonderings about Middle-Earth, they were never intended to be 'published'-they were merely his (in places) reworkings of the mythology, or (in places) his questioning of the 'nature' of different beasts, such as Orks, and also Eagles. Whereas the part about Orks is fraught with difficulties the part of Eagles is not, so it is useless to say "Well the Orks are a case of Tolkien having a contradictory and often confusing set of ideas about a race" doesn't stand because Orks are not Eagles and just because one set of Tolkien's philosophical musings are contradictory or complicated doesn't render the other set so.



> This insinuates to me that you were discounting the theory based on the fact that Sorontar had offspring (see our Ungoliant conversation above).



Actually, no. Tolkien is discounting the theory that Sorontar had offspring, not me.


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## Barliman Butterbur

Inderjit S said:


> "Conclusive"-what then is the point of even publishing or using HoME, the Silmarillion or Unfinished Tales when everything is inconclusive? What is even the point of quoting from them if everything is inconclusive?



You're both right. Tolkien wasn't "conclusive" because the Sil was never finished, and we have only the patchwork quilt that Christopher Tolkien sewed together, choosing which patches he felt would make the best quilt under the circumstances. So in a way, Sil is CT's _version_ of it, in somewhat the same sense that PJ's movies are PJ's _version_ of LOTR. (Unfortunately in the case of Sil we'll never have the original.) But in the areas of the _broader saga_ where _Tolkien himself_ was _satisfied with the finished product_, those, I believe, we can accept as "conclusive".

On the other hand, the point of publishing HoME, etc., is the same as providing the early drafts of a symphonic score: one can see how the finished product was arrived at. But let's not take the metaphor too far: we are dealing with parts of stories here, not music. And these parts of stories tend to take on a life of their own — especially when the enthusiastic fan tends to almost unconsciously work them into his "mental Tolkien" as though they were _expansions_ of the finished product (which is admittedly fun)! And they aren't! 

So the point of HoME, _et al,_ to us here at TTF is, that we can play at speculative/intellectual discussions — mental massage (I dare not use the word which really comes to mind) using open-ended inconclusives which (therefore) may at times degrade into arguments or even fights... 

But for me, everything outside of _The Hobbit_ and _The Lord of the Rings_ (Sil, HoME, UT, etc.) is background information, _backstory_ (that's a word I learned from PJ), contributing _greatly_ to the enjoyment of — but never replacing — the Final Product.

Barley


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## Grond

Inderjit S said:


> ...you claim that I think I know more about Tolkien's mind than anybody, but you seem to think that you know more about Tolkien's mind than anybody if you think you can label things 'conclusive' based on publication rather than Tolkien's final thoughts...


I make no such assertions as all. The only assertion I've made is that Tolkien never published the material you continually cite as canon. You, nor even Christopher Tolkien, could know what JRRT would have published as his final canon because he never published it. His most recent musings bear no more weight than the prior ones since the canon was never published under his editorial direction. We can speculate, we can debate, we can argue viewpoints but we cannot cite canon since it doesn't exist (in so far as the Legendarium itself is concerned). 

Your grasp of the Legendarium is remarkable. Your definitive posting style indicates an arrogance which is unwarranted. Your single mindedness weakens your arguments.

Cheers,

grond


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## Barliman Butterbur

Gentlemen, gentlemen, gentlemen! 

Your discourse reminds me of a situation which took place in Brooklyn, back in the early '30s.

There was a never-ending and escalating series of altercations between the Irish and the Italian gangs in the neighborhoods, which were, quite literally, being torn apart. The police could do nothing and it became so bad that even the gang members began to be worried, thinking that they'd taken things too far and things were in danger of spinning out of control. So the heads of the gangs got together for a parley.

"Boys, we have to do something," said an Irish gangleader. We can't be kings of the neighborhood if there's no neighborhood left!"

"What do you propose?" asked an Italian gangleader.

"Well, I have an idea that's sure to bring us together and end the violence!" the Irish leader said proudly.

"Well, what is it?" they all asked breathlessly.

"WE ALL GET TOGETHER AND GO BEAT UP THE _GREEKS!_"

••••••••••••

Now — I suggest that you both take a look at my last post (#86) where I have proclaimed BOTH of you "right," and proceed from there. (And upon reading that post, you might even find that _I'm_ right!  )

Barley


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## Grond

Barliman Butterbur said:


> ...Now — I suggest that you both take a look at my last post (#86) where I have proclaimed BOTH of you "right," and proceed from there. (And upon reading that post, you might even find that _I'm_ right!  )
> 
> Barley


I guess you're just more eloquent than I because I thought that your last post is exactly what I've been saying all along. 

Cheers,

grond


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## Walter

I'd like to offer one thought/quote regarding the "Canon-discussion":


> As one enthusiast remarked, there are Tolkien's _latest_ thoughts, his _best_ thoughts, and his _published_ thoughts, and these are not necessarily the same...
> 
> Wayne G. Hammond in "A Continuing and Evolving Creation"



Regarding the "Origin of Orcs": I think it is _Beowulf_ (cf. _orc-nēas_ and _orc-þyrs_)


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## Barliman Butterbur

Walter said:


> I'd like to offer one thought/quote regarding the "Canon-discussion":
> Quote:
> As one enthusiast remarked, there are Tolkien's latest thoughts, his best thoughts, and his published thoughts, and these are not necessarily the same...
> 
> Wayne G. Hammond in "A Continuing and Evolving Creation"
> 
> 
> Regarding the "Origin of Orcs": I think it is Beowulf (cf. orc-nēas and orc-þyrs)
> Reply With Quote



Y'know what? _*You're right too!*_  

Barley

PS: My correct post count is whatever is shown *PLUS 800.* For some reason, credit for 800(!!!) legitimate posts has been subtracted from my count with no explanation whatever.


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## Grond

Walter said:


> I'd like to offer one thought/quote regarding the "Canon-discussion":
> As one enthusiast remarked, there are Tolkien's latest thoughts, his best thoughts, and his published thoughts, and these are not necessarily the same...
> 
> Wayne G. Hammond in "A Continuing and Evolving Creation
> 
> Regarding the "Origin of Orcs": I think it is _Beowulf_ (cf. _orc-nēas_ and _orc-þyrs_)


Walter,

The interesting thing is that the only person who would know JRRT's lastest, best and published thoughts would be JRRT and he ain't talking anymore.

Cheers,

grond


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## Inderjit S

Perhaps I AM arrogant (somewhat) and perhaps I am singleminded, I guess that is up to you to interpret on the basis of some posts on a internet forum about a fiction world, but to be honest I don't really care much about how others percieve me, perhaps this is arrogance but I would much rather call it individualism, though this spans many things besides Tolkien-I am also aware that my posting style can be a tad condescending, I am sorry if this sends the wrong image about me...I think we should all do as Barley says and put this argument to rest and focus perhaps on the original topic.


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## Walter

Grond said:


> ...and he ain't talking anymore.


Alas!

But ain't this one good reason more for each and any of us to be careful with declaring "this is so" or "this is not so" when we discuss the legendarium? 

All we get from the books is an indication that at a certain point Tolkien was thinking this or that and seeing things this way or that way. Nothing more, nothing less...


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## Grond

Walter said:


> Alas!
> 
> But ain't this one good reason more for each and any of us to be careful with declaring "this is so" or "this is not so" when we discuss the legendarium?
> 
> All we get from the books is an indication that at a certain point Tolkien was thinking this or that and seeing things this way or that way. Nothing more, nothing less...


And your point is all the more reason that we cannot take most controversial topics and "cast them in stone". Just because Tolkien was thinking something at the end of his days and even wrote about it... doesn't mean that viewpoint is his final view. It could easily be a "musing" of his where he was trying to sort out his own thoughts on the issue. Since JRRT never published any of these "stories" under his own editorial direction, none of them are his final version. We have no idea what his final version would have been.

Cheers,

grond


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## Grond

Now, back to the topic at hand... I've changed my mind. I first felt that Sauron/Gorthaur was the greatest Maia but now feel differently. But for Gandalf/Olorin, Sauron would never have been beaten. Since he was the tool of Sauron's downfall... I now feel Gandalf/Olorin is the greatest Maia ever.

Cheers,

grond


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## Walter

Grond said:


> And your point is all the more reason that we cannot take most controversial topics and "cast them in stone". Just because Tolkien was thinking something at the end of his days and even wrote about it... doesn't mean that viewpoint is his final view. It could easily be a "musing" of his where he was trying to sort out his own thoughts on the issue. Since JRRT never published any of these "stories" under his own editorial direction, none of them are his final version. We have no idea what his final version would have been.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> grond


I could not agree more...

And Tolkien occasionally changed his mind even about things that were already published so we are - in many cases - left with little certainty...


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## Barliman Butterbur

Grond said:


> ...But for Gandalf/Olorin, Sauron would never have been beaten. Since he was the tool of Sauron's downfall... I now feel Gandalf/Olorin is the greatest Maia ever.



My sediments exactly, said the geologist  (something which I opined back in post #82: "Were I to be pinned to the wall, I would say that it was (and is) IMO Gandalf, _because he had the most to do in setting the stage for the destruction of Sauron._ Had it not been for that (I believe, at any rate), the rest of the Fellowship's accomplishments would have come to nothing.").

Barley


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## Walter

Grond said:


> Now, back to the topic at hand... I've changed my mind. I first felt that Sauron/Gorthaur was the greatest Maia but now feel differently. But for Gandalf/Olorin, Sauron would never have been beaten. Since he was the tool of Sauron's downfall... I now feel Gandalf/Olorin is the greatest Maia ever.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> grond


Sorry if I'm opening a can of worms here or lead the topic astray, but isn't there a slight discrepancy in your point of view?

You call Gandalf a "tool" here, and some years ago we had a discussion about Gandalf's death, where you considered Gandalf's death and resurrection a direct intervention of Eru, IIRC. But when Gandalf/Olórin could not even outperform the Balrog on his own, can he really be considered the "greatest Maia ever"? How much of Gandalf's greatness was due to Eru's helping hand throughout the quest to destroy Sauron, who btw. was weakened already?


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## Barliman Butterbur

Walter said:


> Sorry if I'm opening a can of worms here or lead the topic astray, but isn't there a slight discrepancy in your point of view?
> 
> You call Gandalf a "tool" here, and some years ago we had a discussion about Gandalf's death, where you considered Gandalf's death and resurrection a direct intervention of Eru, IIRC. But when Gandalf/Olórin could not even outperform the Balrog on his own, can he really be considered the "greatest Maia ever"? How much of Gandalf's greatness was due to Eru's helping hand throughout the quest to destroy Sauron, who btw. was weakened already?



I suppose this is sticking my nose into what is essentially a private contention between you two — but — _again_ we must come back to a definition of greatness, something that Grond and others were dead set against as "limiting the discussion." 

Obviously Gandalf's "magical powers" were sorely tried, but that isn't where he was "great," sez I. His "greatness" was not in the strength of his wizard's powers, but in his ability to arrange people and situations so that the rest of the members of the Fellowship could each carry out their respective parts in the mission. His _greatness_ was in his _intention and resolve_ to do whatever was necessary to defeat Sauron. His greatness was in the fact that he wanted no credit or reward for himself and did not allow his motives to become perverted (as in the case with Saruman). His greatness was in his incorruptibility of purpose and remaining true to his cause, seeing it through to the end at whatever cost to himself.

Barley


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## Walter

Barliman Butterbur said:


> I suppose this is sticking my nose into what is essentially a private contention between you two — but — _again_ we must come back to a definition of greatness, something that Grond and others were dead set against as "limiting the discussion."



No, Barley, it's neither private nor a contention, or at least I didn't mean it as such. It was just something that caught my eye...

Regarding a definition of "greatness" I see two possibilities: Either we leave it undefined, than everyone can apply the term to whatever traits or deeds s/he sees fit. Nothing wrong with that, only the outcome may not be comparable.

Or we define "greatness", but in this case we are limiting the scope of this thread...


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## Thorondor_

> But when Gandalf/Olórin could not even outperform the Balrog on his own, can he really be considered the "greatest Maia ever"? How much of Gandalf's greatness was due to Eru's helping hand throughout the quest to destroy Sauron, who btw. was weakened already?


Imo, the only "certain" intervention of Eru is the resurection of Gandalf after he defeated the balrog. If we are to presume that He helped in other mysterious ways, I think that in this case no one has any credit anymore, esspecially the "mythological" bad guys, considering the fact that they were more or less bound to the Music they played, a Music which is directed by Eru completely.


> we must come back to a definition of greatness


In general, I would see greatness in two aspects, active and passive: trying to accomplish formidable deeds or having some strong qualities (esspecially moral ones), but this - I am not very fond of.. [A certain greatness can be generated by mere genealogy ]


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## Barliman Butterbur

Walter said:


> ...Regarding a definition of "greatness" I see two possibilities: Either we leave it undefined, than everyone can apply the term to whatever traits or deeds s/he sees fit. Nothing wrong with that, only the outcome may not be comparable.
> 
> Or we define "greatness", but in this case we are limiting the scope of this thread...



Of course: to define _anything_ is to limit it (by definition  ). However, since I defined it _as applied to Gandalf_ to my own satisfaction in my last post, I can now get a peaceful night's sleep. 

Barley


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## Ingwë

You have written many post in this thread  

So about Gandalf and Sauron...


> Then Manwe asked, where was Olorin ? And Olorin, who was clad in grey, and having just entered from a journey had seated himself at the edge of the council, asked what Manwл would have of him. Manwл replied that he wished Olorin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth (and it is remarked in parentheses that "Olorin was a lover of the Eldar that remained," apparently to explain Manwe's choice). But Olorin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwe said that that was all the more reason why he should go, and that he commanded Olorin (illegible words follow that seems to contain word "third").


Manwe wanted to send Olorin as a third messenger to the Middle earth. So it seems that Manwe knew something about the future... 
*The real duel* in the Lord of the Rings is Olorin (Gandalf) - Sauron. *But* they didn't fight face to face! They used their powers. I mean that Gandalf helped the free peoples of MIddle earth to overthrow Sauron and The Dark lord used his armies. He could control them with the One Ring. 
So Gandalf and Sauron fought and Gandalf won. That's all to me. 
I will try to find the exact quote from the Letters of Tolkien


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## Grond

Walter said:


> Sorry if I'm opening a can of worms here or lead the topic astray, but isn't there a slight discrepancy in your point of view?
> 
> You call Gandalf a "tool" here, and some years ago we had a discussion about Gandalf's death, where you considered Gandalf's death and resurrection a direct intervention of Eru, IIRC. But when Gandalf/Olórin could not even outperform the Balrog on his own, can he really be considered the "greatest Maia ever"? How much of Gandalf's greatness was due to Eru's helping hand throughout the quest to destroy Sauron, who btw. was weakened already?


ROFL! Of course you are right Walter! I withdraw my previous opinion and now unequivocally declare that Eru was the greatest Maia ever... after all, every one of the Ainur were but thoughts from Eru's great mind.  

Seriously though, Gandalf's resurrection only adds to both his greatness and mystique. Eru made both Sauron and Gandalf. Let's ask him. 

Cheers,

grond


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## Walter

Too bad we can't ask the one who created all three, Eru, Gandalf and Sauron either... 

But I agree, Gandalf's development is even more mysterious than Sauron's.

What began as a maggot in Ymir's flesh some thousand years ago - a dwarf - was transformed to a magic elf, a wizard and eventually a divine being, parthenogenetic offspring of the all-father...

Compared to that transformation from a king-size evil cat to an evil overlord appears almost mediocre... 



Cheers


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## Ermundo

Sauron because......


1. In the Lord of the Rings Sauron had been in battle with the the Last Alliance and Gil- Galad's army for 7 years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Obviously Sauron would be exhausted even if he is a mia but to drive but the last alliance of very powerful men and elves all by himself is something that no mia can do even Ingwe.


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## Eledhwen

Walter said:


> Too bad we can't ask the one who created all three, Eru, Gandalf and Sauron either...
> 
> But I agree, Gandalf's development is even more mysterious than Sauron's.
> 
> What began as a maggot in Ymir's flesh some thousand years ago - a dwarf - was transformed to a magic elf, a wizard and eventually a divine being, parthenogenetic offspring of the all-father...
> 
> Compared to that transformation from a king-size evil cat to an evil overlord appears almost mediocre...
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers


Walter's obviously better read than me! If this carries on, I shall have to resort to shouting to cover my ignorance.

*GANDALF!* *coughs*. So, did I convince you all?


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## Durin's Bane

Ofcourse I'll vote for myself!!! It is only natural...


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## Numenor

I voted Sauron but honestly I think it is either Sauron or Gandalf were the greatest Maia because they had the most part out of all the Maia in JRRT's work


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## Noldor_returned

It all depends on your definition of 'greatest'. Some people would define it as the strongest and most powerful (myself), others would reckon coolest. Sauron is the greatest (IMO) because it would supposedly take 5 other Maiar to defeat him possibly. He was feared by all and there was only one way to defeat him. Every other Maia could be killed in different ways.


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## Noldor_returned

Sauron. He had the most power and there was only one way to defeat him.


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## Ermundo

If we refer to the Sauron having forged the one ring than we can assume that he was the most powerful and had the greatest will power. I mean, with the one ring Sauron basically had the power of the three from a far.

And if we refer to the average Sauron (not putting his power into other things) he is still considered ONE of the greatest of the Mia but not the greatest (maybe he is the greatest actually????????)


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## Wonko The Sane

I voted for Melian, and I agree with Nom in all the ways.



> It all depends on your definition of 'greatest'. Some people would define it as the strongest and most powerful (myself), others would reckon coolest. Sauron is the greatest (IMO) because it would supposedly take 5 other Maiar to defeat him possibly. He was feared by all and there was only one way to defeat him. Every other Maia could be killed in different ways.



I don't know who's voting in this poll based on who they think is the coolest, but greatest doesn't necessarily mean most powerful.
I go with Nom on this and say that greatest doesn't mean most powerful and that Melian was the greatest because she was good and she had, what I believe, is the strongest positive influence on ME.
Though Sauron was probably the most powerful of those listed, he was also corrupt, and evil, and his power could only be used for evil. Not so with Melian who was also very powerful, her power was used for good.


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## Gil-Galad 2.0

The greatest is oviosly Souron but if you are looking for a favorite that would be Gothmog (I'm not much of a good guy fan).


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## Telëlambe

It's tricky.
It all really depends on how you define greatness, for myself i would say that just because things are considered evil, does not mean they are not great. however i did'nt vote for sauron, but he was a close second. (and all this stuff about sauron being victorious having not made the ring is absurd! Morgoth tried it the old fashoned way and we know how that ended, and do you think the alliance wouldn't have been had the ring not?)

Melian did have a lot of power, but she could have used it to far better effect i feel and was content where she was... bless her.

So i feel greatness is a relative term,(its not great that a car can go 100mph but a bicycle going that speed would be great) and my vote went to Olorin. It's written in many places he was the wisest of the miar race and when he came to middle earth he was confined the the body of a man, and subject to all the aches and pains of mortal men (which he had to endure for hundreds of years) so with this body and massivly deminished power he never gave up and put motion and guided huge events to defeat sauron, who openly used all the power he had! plus he was a good laugh throughout.


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## Amarie Veanne

Voted for Sauron! 
It was a hard choice between him and Gandalf, but I left aside the question of good and evil, and just remarked the influence and what they did in the world. Of course Gandalf did a great thing, but Sauron did more (evil)...


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## Bucky

I think anyone voting for Durin's Bane is wacked.....

I mean Gothmog is the Lord of Balrogs. 

The Valaquenta CLEARLY states that Sauron is the greatest of the servants of Melkor that have names, so Gothmog is out.

Gandalf fears he may be outmatched by Sauron's servant The Witch-king in The Seige of Gondor......
He barely escapes from the dugeons of The Necromancer.
He also states that Saruman is the greatest of his Order, yet Saruman is daunted by & ends up as a servant to Sauron......

Melian is a possible candidate, but the most likely one & the one I voted for is Eonwe.

He has Sauron bow down to him (even if it is in fear).
He IS herald of Manwe & leader of The Host of The Valar that over throws Morgoth at the end of the First Age.
They do in all the Balrogs, winged dragons, werewolves, trolls, vampires, orcs, et all.
Theres got to be some power to lead that.

Melian on the other hand, has a pitty party & leaves Beleriand when one bad thing happens to her.
Some fortitude......

I wonder where Ungoliant would've rated if it was a fact that she was a Maia?
There was obviously some serious power in her to make Morgoth quail.....

But, most likely, she was a Maia as she was originally in Melkor's service until disowning her master to serve herself.


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## Burzum

I just can't decide who is the greatest in terms of inherent strength. But if we go by accomplishments, Sauron, by far, gets my vote. His involvement in the pre-First Age period and the First Age is miniscule (although I really like that story of Gorlim the Unhappy, it isn't that much of an achievement), and frankly he sucks in the Third Age, but the Second Age was pretty much a stage made for him. He fooled the Noldor as Annatar while secretly forging the One Ring, causing all the subsequent stories aobut Ring to exist. But even this pales in comparison to what I consider one of the greatest achievements by any single individual: the destruction of Numenor. It's simply amazing, that he goes to the most powerful kingdom in existence and uses the citizen's fear of death (a very cool element by itself) to take control of its reign, acting as a high priest of what he claims to be the real God (Melkor) and defying the Lords of the West, and Eru himself.


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## ltnjmy

The Greatest was Olorin/Gandalf


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