# Why did Gondor never attack the easterlings?



## krash8765 (May 28, 2003)

During the time that the barad-dur and sauron were incapacitated why did Gondor never invade the eastering lands such as Rhun and Khand? I know that during their times of power they invaded Harad and Umbar but the major threat always came from the east such as the wainriders and the balcoth. Did i miss something or is there a reason for this?


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## Niniel (May 29, 2003)

Maybe they were no immediate treat to Gondor, so there was no reason to invade them (other than the glory of the individual Gondor captains). Or maybe Gondor felt its strength had lessened, so they didn't know they could beat the Easterlings.


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## Ancalagon (May 29, 2003)

I think a lot would have to do with Manpower, lines of supply, securing their flank and governing those territories they hold. All of this comes back to Manpower, which had steadily dwindled over the years.


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## Celebthôl (May 29, 2003)

Heres a question though, if they did attack the far East like Khand etc, then surely that Khandians (for want of a better word), would see that the Men of Gondor were proud but fair, and they would be drawn to them such as many were to King Elessar after "The Black Gate Opens", now that would be a major blow to Sauron...right?


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## baragund (May 29, 2003)

Krash, Throughout much of the Third Age, there was an ongoing and pretty nasty see-saw war between Gondor and the Wainriders of Rhun. The Wainriders would attack, have some pretty large scale battles and eventually get pushed back to where they came from. This is one of the things during the Third Age that really sapped Gondor's strength. These ongoing raids by the Wainriders also was one of the contributing factors that lead the northmen of the vales of Anduin to help out Gondor, and eventually established for themselves the kingdom of Rohan. To get more insight on this, get yourself a copy of Unfinished Tales; there's a lot more about it there.

Celebthol, Attacking Khand would be pretty tough, wouldn't it? Gondor would have to go through Rhun, Mordor or the Harads to get there. Maybe Gondor could have done it very early in the Third Age, when their strength was greatest, but I don't think they could have pulled it off by the time of the Stewards.


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## Celebthôl (May 29, 2003)

But if they had taken it, then would it be allied with them against Sauron in the time of the ring? seeing that good is better...


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## baragund (May 30, 2003)

Well sure, Celebthol, but as the old saying goes, "easier said than done".


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## Celebthôl (May 30, 2003)

Well with the might of Gondor as it was and no big Mordor threat to worry about, then it wouldnt be that difficult...

(YAY!!! my 1500 post )


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## Beleg (May 31, 2003)

> Well with the might of Gondor as it was and no big Mordor threat to worry about, then it wouldnt be that difficult...



First of all we need to look at all the afrays of the Easterlings, Haradrim and Variages.

Gondor was first attack in 490 F.A, by Easterlings from the east. 
At that time Gondor hadn't yet reached the Zenith of its power and glory.
Their land mostly consisted of Rohan, Anarion, Ithilin, Minas Anor/Ithil and some of the southern Fiefs. 
These easterlings were *Drivern Out* byTarostar. However, he was slain by fresh hoards of Easterlings in 541 T.A. This to me shows that at the time Gondor's land was still far away from the lands of their enemies, specially the easterlings. (Variages of Khand are a later invention and come into the tale much later.) 
The Brown lands lay inbetween and also since Easterlings and others were greatly diminished in the toppling of Sauron, Gondor presumed that they didn't have any immediate reason to worry concerning attack from the easterlings.

It is said that Taurastar's son Turambar defeated the Easterlings and "Won Much teritory eastwards." This to me signifies that this was the first time that Gondor occupied any land eastwards of Anduin. The attacks from Easterlings apparantly stopped for we don't hear any mention of them for another Milenium or so. Perhaps Gondor establishes states in Rhovanion which act as a buffer between Gondor and Rhun. Besides the Line of Ship Kings began who were more bent to capture land in South through Naval attacks then pay heed to the easterlings. 
The next time we hear any mention of the Eastern Teritories is in the reign of Ciryaher. We are told that at that time Gondor's eastern boundries reached till Rhun. Perhaps the brown lands were captured by Taurastar or perhaps the people living in those lands acknowledged the Overlordship of Gondor. 
Anyway, with the buffer of the Kingdom of Rhovanion, the mountains of Brown Lands and the fortifications at Anduin, Gondor had no reason to fear an attack of Easterlings, so why then waste money, manpower and beasts in trying to conquer Rhun, specially since the land lay so far off and we know next to nothing about the topography and Geographical conditions of Rhun. 
In Narmacil's time, the attacks from the Easterlings began again. At that time Gondor still enjoyed the Zenith of it's power. So Gondor decides to try and finish the Easterlings with one stroke.
Thus a war is fought on the very lands of Rhun (It is implied that since east of the Inland sea, surely only Rhun lay?) Easterling's are utterly destroyed and routed, but since the land is so far off the mainland of Gondor, the regent of the time leaves the land alone, satisfied that the evil is dealt with. 
Since that time (about 1270's T.A) other, interior evil starts to befall Gondor and signs of wanning of Gondor become evident.
And still Romendacil (the regent) to get himself rid of further problems, fortifies the western shores of Anduin against all type of attack. These fortifications probably start from the Undeeps and range till Rauros. 
Next come the wainraiders in the late 1800's T.A. They are said to be a "confedration of people that came from the east" and they were better equiped and more civilzed then the previous attackers.
In the attacks of Wainraiders comes the first mention of Khand. Khand perhaps is the most distant land from Gondor, since it lays South Eastwards from Gondor and the land of Mordor and the sea of Nurn seperates it from the mainland Gondor. it would indeed by difficult to take any army there due to the terrain difficulties and other, more political reasons. 
The power of Gondor wains and manpower decreases due to the Great Plague and Kinstrife; two evils that befall Gondor. 
A great enemy would be needed to subdue the folks of Khand and South Rhun, which would mean that Gondor would be left unguarded. That would have provided Haradrim with a chance of attacking Gondor. So strategically, IMO it would really be difficult to conquer and properly subdue all the enemies of Gondor since their lands lay so far off from Mainland Gondor and since Gondor was always surrouded by enemies and a full-power attack against one enemy would give the chance to the other enemy to attack Gondor and to withheld that attack Gondor in the later part of Second Millienum and throughout the third millinium didn't had enuf men. 
And besides we are never clear about just how far east did the men dwelt and how far south did far Harad reached. 

So for me, after the first wipe out of Easterlings and Southrons, things deterorated to such an extent that Gondor could only act as a defender but not as an attacker.




> Heres a question though, if they did attack the far East like Khand etc, then surely that Khandians (for want of a better word), would see that the Men of Gondor were proud but fair, and they would be drawn to them such as many were to King Elessar after "The Black Gate Opens", now that would be a major blow to Sauron...right?



Sauron governed them, he was like a God to them, so why would they then adhere to Gondorians, who for all comodity seem like opperesors and landtakers, specially since they are enemies of their "God" too.



> But if they had taken it, then would it be allied with them against Sauron in the time of the ring? seeing that good is better...



They would never be "allied" with them. Sure Haradrim, Easterlings and Khandians might pay homage to them, grudgefully accept their overlordship, but to them they would always seem like enemies and they would never ally themselves with them. Remember, Sauron ruled the the easterlings for about three thousand years, lot of time in which to harbour and cultivate new religion and cults into their society. Infact he gained so much control on them that they obeyed him like a God and adhered to his every word. There were men proud and bold in them also, so they would fight till their very death against Gondorians. For that is the way they were bred, to hate the tall sea-men and their followers and their breeding was done by Sauron or his luietents.


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## BlackCaptain (Jun 1, 2003)

... 

What the archer said...


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## Evenstar373 (Jul 2, 2003)

I am about to sound very stupid... But what are easterlings???


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## Feanorian (Jul 2, 2003)

> I am about to sound very stupid... But what are easterlings???



From The Lost Road and Other Writings: The Later Annals of Beleriand-



> Here the Swarthy Men (Easterlings) first came into Beleriand in the East. They were short and broad, long and strong in the arm, growing much hair on face and breast, and their locks were dark, as were their eyes; their skins were swart, yet their countenances were not uncomely for the most part, though some were grim-looking and illfavoured. Their houses were many, and some had liking rather for the Dwarves of the mountains, of Nogrod and Belegost, than for the Elves. But Maidros seeing the weakness of the Noldor, and the growingpower of the armies of Morgoth, made alliance with these Men, and with their chieftains Bor and Ulfand.



Anymore questions about our beloved Easterlings?


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## Beleg (Jul 3, 2003)

Actually Feanorian, The Easterling's of the First age are not assosiated with the easterling's of third age. 
Easterling's is the name given to people living the east of Middle-Earth, namely Rhun and Khand.


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## Feanorian (Jul 3, 2003)

> Actually Feanorian, The Easterling's of the First age are not assosiated with the easterling's of third age. Easterling's is the name given to people living the east of Middle-Earth, namely Rhun and Khand.



And you say this why? Rhun and Khand are about as far East as Middle-Earth maps go. How can they not be associated? The desciption was adaquet for both I believe.


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## Beleg (Jul 3, 2003)

> And you say this why? Rhun and Khand are about as far East as Middle-Earth maps go. How can they not be associated? The desciption was adaquet for both I believe.



We are told that Swarthy Men in the first age appeared before Nirneath (around 465 F.A). They seemed to have heard about Beleriand from their Kin wandering in Beleriand. Besides most of the folks that inhabited Eriador during the Second age were people of the folks of Bor; a swarthy man. 

The Swarthy men of third age are quite different. 
They appear to live in the remote, less civilized eastern areas of Middle-earth and aren't of the same clans of the Swarthy men of the First age.


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## Evenstar373 (Jul 3, 2003)

Yea, are they anything like those wild men in ROTK???


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## childoferu (Aug 8, 2009)

Has anyone else notice that during all the ages of ME, the forces rarely if ever assault the forces of evil, I guess Tolkien was trying to avoid glorifying war


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## Withywindle (Aug 8, 2009)

childoferu said:


> Has anyone else notice that during all the ages of ME, the forces rarely if ever assault the forces of evil, I guess Tolkien was trying to avoid glorifying war


 
Western ME, like all centres of civilization, is occupied chiefly with keeping the Barbarians out there is little motivation to go out and seek war with uncivilzed lands just for the sake of it. The one exception, both in ME and in our own world is when that civilization is based on slavery or subjugation: in the Ancient World many Roman campaigns were motivated by the need to take new slaves, and in ME we think of the Numenoreans that settled the coasts of ME.


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## childoferu (Aug 8, 2009)

Withywindle said:


> Western ME, like all centres of civilization, is occupied chiefly with keeping the Barbarians out there is little motivation to go out and seek war with uncivilzed lands just for the sake of it. The one exception, both in ME and in our own world is when that civilization is based on slavery or subjugation: in the Ancient World many Roman campaigns were motivated by the need to take new slaves, and in ME we think of the Numenoreans that settled the coasts of ME.


 
okay okay, interesting take on the subject Withy(if may call you that), and for the most part, I agree with just being on the defensive, but sometimes it just irritated me how either men or elves wouldn't just finished off and distinguished the Enemy, that's what they are: the Enemy, no time for piece or negoitations


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## AmrothofArnor (Jan 11, 2010)

In the Sil there stays that many Black-Númenoreans lived in the far south out of the reach of Gil-Galad (the borders of that realm were in the late 2Age till the Anduin). The most northeren Black-Númenoreans were Herumar and Fuinur, who became kings of Harad, and the citty of Umbar. 

Even if they could destroy the Easterlings, Haradrim, and Khând they would there far cousins. You can't hold all that regions and figth another country. It was almost impossible for the Ship-Kings too hold Umbar, and that was only a citty + one of these regions. All the Gondorians were just outnumbered by all these enemies.


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## Bucky (Jan 11, 2010)

Why didn't Gondor attack the Easterlings?

Simple.....

Because they were THE GOOD GUYS.

And the good guys don't attack, they GET attacked. 

That's why the Allies didn't attack the Axis, but got repeatedly sneak attacked on all fronts.


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