# Crowns of seven kings



## Arvedui (Jun 1, 2006)

From _The Two Towers, The Voice of Saruman:_


> "Later! Yes, when you also have the Keys of Barad-dûr itself, I suppose; and the crowns of seven kings, and the rods of the Five Wizards, and have purchased yourself a pair of boots many sizes larger than those that you wear now [...]"


 
The "mystery" of the rods of the Five Wizards have been discussed before, but now I want to draw attention to a different part of what Saruman said: the crowns of seven kings.
Does anyone have any idea as to which kings he might have referred to?
Gondor, Arthedain, Cardolan, and Rhûdaur count for just four, so what is Saruman referring to?


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## YayGollum (Jun 1, 2006)

The crowns of the seven Dwarf kings.


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## Maeglin (Jun 1, 2006)

Considering there was only one dwarf king at the time of this event in the story, I don't think it was in reference to that. I can't think of any better explanation for it off the top of my head though.


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## Ingwë (Jun 1, 2006)

I have always thought that Saruman meant the Seven Dwarfs kings. We associate _seven_ with the _The Seven Rings _given to the Dwarf lords:

_Cormar neld' Eldaranin undu telume, _
_Otso Casarceruin ondomardeltassen, _
_Nerte Firyain; firien martine,_
_Mine Loonaherun, lónamahalmaryasse._

In English,
_Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,_
_Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,_
_Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,_
_One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne_

_Seven Rings_ for the Dwarf-lords, who have _seven crowns_.


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## Ermundo (Jun 1, 2006)

Ingwë said:


> I have always thought that Saruman meant the Seven Dwarfs kings.



Maybe that is true but the quote from the book says 7 KINGS.. not THE 7 KINGS so technically it could refer to any 7 kings, not just The 7 dwarf kings 
if you see what I mean.

So technically speaking it wouldn't have made sense for Saruman to say "the crowns of 7 kings" if meant the seven specific dwarf kings. Cause saying 7 kings and not THE 7 kings, it could refer to any person with the title of King.

Get it. I'm just trying to prove a point but I may be wrong.


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## Noldor_returned (Jun 1, 2006)

Well are there seven kingdoms of men? Saruman sort of knew about Aragorn, so there we have Gondor/Arnor, then Rohan, as well as the Haradrim, plus there's one other race of men which I can't remember. That gives five, so maybe a dwarf crown and elven crown? Oh yeah, Dale as well. So six I can think of off the top of my head.

Or, the one dwarf crown (Erebor), three elven crowns (Grey Havens, Rivendell and Lothlorien) and three Men crowns (Gondor, Rohan and Dale). I left Mirkwood out because it does not hold any Noldor, which Saruman would probably think is weak. So is it possible Saruman meant the crowns of the free peoples?


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## Arvedui (Jun 2, 2006)

morgoththe1 said:


> Maybe that is true but the quote from the book says 7 KINGS.. not THE 7 KINGS so technically it could refer to any 7 kings, not just The 7 dwarf kings
> if you see what I mean.
> 
> So technically speaking it wouldn't have made sense for Saruman to say "the crowns of 7 kings" if meant the seven specific dwarf kings. Cause saying 7 kings and not THE 7 kings, it could refer to any person with the title of King.
> ...


Well, I for one think that you are onto something. Tolkien would most likely have used "THE" if he had specific kings in mind, considering the effort he made to ensure that everything was exactly right.
Which raises another question: does this indicate that there are in fact more than seven kings?
And another question: Saruman was a Maia. May he have been thinking back, and therefore include First and Second Age as well?


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## YayGollum (Jun 2, 2006)

Hm. Well, now that other people have pointed out how the Saruman character words it (Before, I was just tossing a random guess. *hides*), I would have to guess ---> He was jumping from a specific thing to a random other thing. The keys of Barad-Dur, any seven crowns that used to belong to any seven kings, the rods of five specific wizards, and some random boots. He doesn't specify what sorts of kingdoms these crowns are supposed to have come from, so he was just using a random number and a random and normally unattainable object. Seven was the number of the different types of Dwarves, so it was the first thing that I thought of. Even if only one Dwarf king was alive at the time, older crowns still existed, someplace, and would be cool objects to own.


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## Ermundo (Jun 2, 2006)

YayGollum said:


> The keys of Barad-Dur, *any* seven crowns that used to belong to any seven kings, the rods of five specific wizards, and some random boots.



This is exactly what I am trying to state, 7 crowns of any 7 kings.


Mogoththe1


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## baragund (Jun 2, 2006)

Well, suppose the number 7 was significant. I think Saruman would have been more interested in Men's crowns than Dwarves. He didn't have a lot of involvement with Dwarvish affairs. I also think Sarumen would have been thinking of the free peoples so we can rule out Harad, Rhun, Khand and the like.

If one were to add Dale, Rohan and Arnor, the parent kingdom of Arthedain, Cardolan and Rhûdaur to what Arvedui listed above, one would get to seven.


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## Eriol (Jun 2, 2006)

I don't think Saruman is the kind of guy that is impressed by kingdoms like Dale, Rohan or Cardolan. Remember his insults to Théoden? I still think he referred to the Dwarves. Perhaps this was a customary hyperbole meaning "absolute power", since no one could ever control the Dwarves (as Sauron and Morgoth learned). If one got the crowns of 7 kings, he'd achieve absolute power. (The rods of the Five Wizards, on the other hand, would be more of an "insider reference" between him and Gandalf).


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## Shireman D (Jun 3, 2006)

YayGollum said:


> any seven crowns that used to belong to any seven kings


 
Seven is a significant number in several thought systems; in catholic Christianity it is the theologically perfect number, others are content to note that it is a quarter of a lunar cycle.

I wonder if JRRT used it here because - having all those resonances - it perhaps felt poetically right to do so rather than for any deeper plot reason?


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## baragund (Jun 5, 2006)

I like Shireman D's explanation of being a poetic device. If Tolkien had meant the seven Dwarf lords or seven particular kingdoms of Men he would have specified _the_ seven kings.


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## Halasían (Jun 5, 2006)

I always thought those words of Sarumann meant the seven crowns of the Kingdoms of men: Arnor, Gondor, Rohan, Dale, Harad, Khand, & Rhûn. Aside from mentions in the text up to that point in Two Towers, these were on the Two Towers map in the front of the book, so that was what I attributed Saurmann's words to mean when I read it the first time, and that view in subsequent readings still hold.


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## Arvedui (Jun 6, 2006)

baragund said:


> If one were to add Dale, Rohan and Arnor, the parent kingdom of Arthedain, Cardolan and Rhûdaur to what Arvedui listed above, one would get to seven.


The line of Arnor continued through Arthedain, so I believe that the crown did as well, which leaves you with six crowns only.

And I agree with the statements that Saruman probably did not count the dwarfs.
But he was likely to include the Elves. Or at least he dealt with them, so they are in my opinion a bit more plausible than dwarves. Perhaps he could have been thinking about Elrond, Celeborn, and Círdan? Or the Prince of Dol Amroth?


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## baragund (Jun 6, 2006)

There's a thought, Arvedui.

If one were to add Thranduil of Mirkwood, Celebrimbor of Eregion and Gil-galad of Lindon to the what you listed, you would get to seven.


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## Noldor_returned (Jun 6, 2006)

So basically the "crown" of the High-king of the Noldor (Gil-galad, then Elrond), one of the Silvan elves (Thranduil), one from a descendant of Feanor (Celebrimbor), crowns of the Teleri (Celeborn and Cirdan) and one to link elves with men (Dol Amroth). That just about covers all the types of elves, as well as men in general. Not to mention Morgoth would have wanted all seven crowns if he was still around. Gee, Saruman was only turning more evil...


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## Bethelarien (Jun 6, 2006)

Note also that there are seven "male" Valar. Interesting.

I thought at first he might be referring to the Aratar, but then I realized a) there are 8, not 7; and b) they're not all male. So.

Valar, perhaps?


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## Arvedui (Jun 7, 2006)

Bethelarien said:


> Note also that there are seven "male" Valar. Interesting.
> 
> I thought at first he might be referring to the Aratar, but then I realized a) there are 8, not 7; and b) they're not all male. So.
> 
> Valar, perhaps?


Now, that's an interesting and plausible thought!
But perhaps Tolkien would have written Kings with a capital _K_ if that was the case? Still, it does make sense.


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## Noldor_returned (Jun 8, 2006)

I doubt Saruman would have meant the Valar. They tended not to think of themselves as kings, to begin with, and being an Ainur himself, would have known Olorin had no chance of overthrowing all seven. I'm fairly sure Saruman meant something plausible, such as elves or men. The Valar, who may have been powerful, were not kings. In fact, Morgoth was really the only one to wear a crown.


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## Ardamir the Blessed (Jun 8, 2006)

I have heard that the "seven kings" may refer to the seven kings of Rohan who had reigned during Saruman's abode in Isengard (2759-3019).


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## Thorondor_ (Jun 8, 2006)

> The Valar, who may have been powerful, were not kings. In fact, Morgoth was really the only one to wear a crown.


Hm, Manwe was called King numerous times (at at least once Ulmo was called king of the sea).


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## Noldor_returned (Jun 8, 2006)

Ardamir the Blessed said:


> I have heard that the "seven kings" may refer to the seven kings of Rohan who had reigned during Saruman's abode in Isengard (2759-3019).


 
Hmmm. That would only make one crown, still. They didn't each have their own individual crown, as far as I know. And it just doesn't fit, as there wouldn't be much point in ruling dead people from Rohan.

Speaking of Dead people, we can also exclude the King of the Dead, because Sauron had forgotten them, so we can also probably assume Saruman didn't think of them.


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