# Gandalf's powers



## Legolam (Dec 30, 2003)

OK guys, here's one from my boyfriend  

Why does Gandalf never use his powers against the enemies of Mordor? I mean, it would save a lot of heartache and bother. Now, I know you're going to say that the Powers That Be forbade the wizards from using their powers - but Saruman did it with no apparent comeback from up on high, and Gandalf made fireworks, and torches and against the Balrog in Moria (and the Nazgul in the movies!!) etc etc. Why couldn't he have used his powers in battle?

I've tried to answer this satisfactorily for my bf, but it's now starting to annoy me, so any help would be great! Quotes too, that'd help!!!


----------



## Rangerdave (Dec 30, 2003)

Legolam said:


> OK guys, here's one from my boyfriend
> 
> Why does Gandalf never use his powers against the enemies of Mordor? I mean, it would save a lot of heartache and bother. Now, I know you're going to say that the Powers That Be forbade the wizards from using their powers - but Saruman did it with no apparent comeback from up on high, and Gandalf made fireworks, and torches and against the Balrog in Moria (and the Nazgul in the movies!!) etc etc. Why couldn't he have used his powers in battle?
> 
> I've tried to answer this satisfactorily for my bf, but it's now starting to annoy me, so any help would be great! Quotes too, that'd help!!!



Saruman certainly did get his comeupance from the Valar


> To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing.



He was denied a return to Valinor and his true state. That seems fit punishment for his crimes.

RD


----------



## Flammifer (Dec 30, 2003)

> OK guys, here's one from my boyfriend
> 
> Why does Gandalf never use his powers against the enemies of Mordor? I mean, it would save a lot of heartache and bother. Now, I know you're going to say that the Powers That Be forbade the wizards from using their powers - but Saruman did it with no apparent comeback from up on high, and Gandalf made fireworks, and torches and against the Balrog in Moria (and the Nazgul in the movies!!) etc etc. Why couldn't he have used his powers in battle?
> 
> I've tried to answer this satisfactorily for my bf, but it's now starting to annoy me, so any help would be great! Quotes too, that'd help!!!



I have considered this many a time, and I kind of came to the conclusion that it is too tiring for him to use his powers endlessly. 

Consider the "word of Command" that Gandalf uses to try to shut the door of the Chamber of Marzarbul. After that he flies down the staircase to the rest of the company in Moria, and he mentions that he is "spent". He says "you will have to do without light for a while", yet giving light from his staff seems to be a thing that he can do without much effort, and it does not tire him. So we can deduce from this that his powers were very much lessened after he broke the door - it seems that uttering a word of Command is very tiring for his mortal body.

Consider also the Battle of the Peak. Gandalf _died_ after he killed the Balrog. His spirit endured, and it re-embodied, but Gandalf the Grey died. The battle between Gandalf and the Balrog would have involved a lot of "magic", I think we can assume, not just weaponry fights. Gandalf was so spent after he used all his powers to defeat the Balrog that his body actually died. So we can deduce from this that when Gandalf uses his powers too much it is either very physically taxing, and his powers are somewhat absent for a while, or in extreme cases it is deadly.

For these types of reasons, I believe, Gandalf did not use his powers particularly often.


----------



## Lantarion (Dec 31, 2003)

Outstanding answer Flammifer!! My thoughts exactly!


----------



## GuardianRanger (Dec 31, 2003)

Also, I don't believe it is mentioned that Gandalf would ride into battle, fireballs flying, lightning striking, and using other "D&D" type magic. (I think there are some other threads floating around dealing with "magic".)

I think it had to do with Tolkien's view(s) on "magic".

Anyway, that's just my opinion.


----------



## Legolam (Dec 31, 2003)

Good answers, but there's more questions!

There are times Gandalf and his friends are in mortal danger and he hasn't used his powers for a while, so why didn't he use his powers then? I'm sure they could have done with them on the field of Pelennor.

PS I loved Flammifer's answer, it's something I never considered before, but the bf's still not convinced!! Stubborn boy!


----------



## Balin (Dec 31, 2003)

Legolam said:


> Good answers, but there's more questions!
> 
> There are times Gandalf and his friends are in mortal danger and he hasn't used his powers for a while, so why didn't he use his powers then? I'm sure they could have done with them on the field of Pelennor.
> 
> PS I loved Flammifer's answer, it's something I never considered before, but the bf's still not convinced!! Stubborn boy!



IIRC, Gandalf did use magic to prevent the winged nazguls from further attacking Faramir and his company.


----------



## jallan (Dec 31, 2003)

Balin said:


> IIRC, Gandalf did use magic to prevent the winged nazguls from further attacking Faramir and his company.



Quite so. And Gandalf was intending to confront the Witch-king personally until called away by Pippin.

But other than some pyrotechnics and that word of command Gandalf uses in Moria, it is not clear that Gandalf has many "powers" in the superhero sense, e.g. he probably can't fly (or even leap tall trees in a single bound), walk through walls, fire force blasts (except in the films in one scene) see and hear at great distances.

One of Tolkien's achievements is to make Gandalf seem a powerful wizard despite showing little magic through Gandalf's more obvious general knowledge. A wizard is someone of great and unusual knowledge and skill. Gandalf has that, but ability to work magic is almost a small part of it.


----------



## Illuvatar (Dec 31, 2003)

jallan said:


> Quite so. And Gandalf was intending to confront the Witch-king personally until called away by Pippin.
> 
> But other than some pyrotechnics and that word of command Gandalf uses in Moria, it is not clear that Gandalf has many "powers" in the superhero sense, e.g. he probably can't fly (or even leap tall trees in a single bound), walk through walls, fire force blasts (except in the films in one scene) see and hear at great distances.
> 
> One of Tolkien's achievements is to make Gandalf seem a powerful wizard despite showing little magic through Gandalf's more obvious general knowledge. A wizard is someone of great and unusual knowledge and skill. Gandalf has that, but ability to work magic is almost a small part of it.


I agree with that. While they are trying to open the Moria-gates (speak "friend" and enter  ) he comments that he once knew all the passwords, keywords, etc. of the world, and he can still conjure up a few dozen off the top of his head.


----------



## Barliman Butterbur (Dec 31, 2003)

Legolam said:


> OK guys, here's one from my boyfriend
> 
> Why does Gandalf never use his powers against the enemies of Mordor? I mean, it would save a lot of heartache and bother. Now, I know you're going to say that the Powers That Be forbade the wizards from using their powers - but Saruman did it with no apparent comeback from up on high, and Gandalf made fireworks, and torches and against the Balrog in Moria (and the Nazgul in the movies!!) etc etc. Why couldn't he have used his powers in battle?
> 
> I've tried to answer this satisfactorily for my bf, but it's now starting to annoy me, so any help would be great! Quotes too, that'd help!!!



You raise an interesting question: Just what was the range and nature of magic in Middle-earth? What could it do and not do? I wonder if Tolkien ever sat down and figured it out.

Gandalf throws burning sparks down on the wargs in The Hobbit. He uses his staff to start fires in the snow. He brings up light to illuminate Moria, and to destroy the bridge to keep the Balrog from passing. All seemingly to do with lights and fire.

But what about the other magics by other peoples of Middle-earth? Has anyone ever systematized exactly how the elves expressed their magic?

The only magic I can think of was Galadriel's mirror, and their power to foretell (if that can be considered magic).

Did Tolkien ever write about it, or did he just "write it down as it came to him?"

One does wonder why it is that not even Sauron could do without assembling huge armies, and utilizing other sorts of physical power and force. (But there I go, treating this as if it's all _real_...)

Lotho


----------



## Elessar II (Dec 31, 2003)

> There are times Gandalf and his friends are in mortal danger and he hasn't used his powers for a while, so why didn't he use his powers then? I'm sure they could have done with them on the field of Pelennor.



A great question Legolam, and one that I also have been wondering about. It seems to me that Gandalf, even when he was White used his powers very sparingly. Now you take Saruman. Even after he was fallen he still had the power of his voice and very nearly convinced Theoden to join up with him. 

(Although my hunch is that Gandalf possessed the powers of leadership and authority even more than magic.)


----------



## Flammifer (Jan 1, 2004)

> There are times Gandalf and his friends are in mortal danger and he hasn't used his powers for a while, so why didn't he use his powers then? I'm sure they could have done with them on the field of Pelennor.



Gandalf didn't actually make it to the Pelennor Fields. The matter of Denethor's madness, Faramir's sickness and the confrontation of the Witch-king really took up his time, and he didn't once go down into the action on the field, so he couldn't have saved Theoden, or Halbarad, or any of the people that died on the field.



> _Originally posted by GuardianRanger_
> Also, I don't believe it is mentioned that Gandalf would ride into battle, fireballs flying, lightning striking, and using other "D&D" type magic. (I think there are some other threads floating around dealing with "magic".)
> 
> I think it had to do with Tolkien's view(s) on "magic".
> ...



I agree with you there. I'm sure that someone could rustle up some quotes from _Letters_ about the subject, but I always got the impression that magic in LotR is subtle, and often is expressed in ways other than just fireballs and beams of light. 

Indeed, hobbits are really the only race that refers to 'magic'. We understand it, but I think that this whole 'magic' debate just kind of falls under the subject of the 'power'.

Some beings, such as Gandalf, have inherent powers that include a seemingly special skill with fire and light (which may or may not be down to Gandalf bearing the Ring of Fire). These powers are physically dangerous to everyone. These kinds of powers are attributed to Gandalf being a Maia. There can be no denying that.

As Elessar mentinoned, then there are his 'mental' skills: powers of leadership and authority...and also a very strong will and an ability to daunt people or calm them with this words.

Gandalf displays these powers more often. They are his more 'earthly' skills you might even say (ie they are not _entirely_ down to the fact that he is a Maia). Consider the Guard at the entrance to Edoras. After staring at him for a long time, Gandalf manages to convince him to lead them to Meduseld. I'm sure I needn't give more examples. We all know Gandalf has these qualities.

But these qualities are also found in the Great among the Children of Iluvatar (Elves and Men). Aragorn has a very strong will and obviously is powerful in terms of how he can persuade/dissuade people with words, and his leadership qualities (I think we all know he's got some of them ). Consider when he has that stare-off with the Mouth of Sauron. After a while the MoS falls back as if he has been struck a blow by Aragorn (Booyeah!).

Then we also know that Elrond and Galadriel and Glorfindel and many more that are Great and/or Wise have these qualities.



> One of Tolkien's achievements is to make Gandalf seem a powerful wizard despite showing little magic through Gandalf's more obvious general knowledge. A wizard is someone of great and unusual knowledge and skill. Gandalf has that, but ability to work magic is almost a small part of it.



I completely agree with you, jallan! Fantastic way to sum it up.



> I agree with that. While they are trying to open the Moria-gates (speak "friend" and enter ) he comments that he once knew all the passwords, keywords, etc. of the world, and he can still conjure up a few dozen off the top of his head.



Yes, Iluvatar, I think Gandalf is here referring to when he was living in Valinor as Olorin - there his mind would have held more information so to speak; his powers were obviously not as great in Middle-earth, so he couldn't remember everything. It's a lot of things to remember!

Well, I have to go to bed, I am tired. But this isn't all I've got to say on the subject *everyone else sighs in disappointment*


----------



## Úlairi (Jan 1, 2004)

Well, the obvious reason is that he isn't permitted to by the Valar. However, Tolkien has written a lot on the topic indeed.



> _The Letters of JRR Tolkien: Letter #156 to Robert Murray, S.J. (draft): Page 202-3_
> *"He is still under the obligation of concealing his power and of teaching rather than forcing or dominating wills, but where the physical powers of the Enemy are too great for the good will of the opposers to be effective he can act in emergency as an 'angel' - no more violently than the release of St Peter from prison."*



So, he is permitted in _special cases_ to use his power by the Valar, which is fundamentally hypocritical on their part, but let's not stray into that conversation here.  There is also some notes written on the _magia_ of some of the higher beings in ME.



> _The Letters of JRR Tolkien: Letter #155 to Naomi Mitchison (draft): Page 200_
> *"Their magia the Elves and Gandalf use (sparingly): a magia, producing real results (like fire in a wet faggot) for specific beneficient purposes. Their goetic effects are entirely artistic and not intended to deceive: they never deceive Elves (but may deceive or bewilder unaware Men) since the difference is to them as clear as the difference to us between fiction, painting, and sculpture, and 'life'.*


----------



## jallan (Jan 1, 2004)

Gandalf is somewhat like a UN social worker with advanced technology attempting to aid a less technologically advanced community.

The worker's job is to teach the people to better themselves without becoming dependant on UN aid or on the worker (though both in fact sometimes happen). 

The worker must largely work within the local power structure, even when that is somewhat corrupt but remain outside that structure. The worker may be able to call for extra aid from superiors but generally should not do so.

This parallel is far from exact but I think not inappropriate.

Also, despite being Maiar in origin, when incarnated the Istari are, other than in their life spans, very human. Gandalf can magically conceal hmself and then suddenly appear and slay the Great Goblin. Bilbo later does somewhat the same with the spiders. But Gandalf can't magic himself and the Dwarves out of the mountains. Similarly Bilbo could only use his invisibility to help free the Dwarves from the Elven-king’s dungeons.

Tolkien makes it clear that had the Eagles not come, Gandalf and Thorin and his companions would likely have been overcome and destroyed by the goblins and wargs.

The closest parallel to Gandalf in previous literature is probably the Arthurian wizard Merlin. Merlin also usually appears as a councilor and advisor and prophet rather than as a fighter. Arthur and his knights must do most of the work though Merlin occasionally provides aid when needed.


----------



## Illuvatar (Jan 1, 2004)

Great parallel jallen.  I definitely agree with you.


----------



## Úlairi (Jan 1, 2004)

Well, maybe not exactly like that analogy, but close enough.


----------



## Rangerdave (Jan 2, 2004)

Úlairi said:


> So, he is permitted in _special cases_ to use his power by the Valar, which is fundamentally hypocritical on their part, but let's not stray into that conversation here.  There is also some notes written on the _magia_ of some of the higher beings in ME.



I really don't think that special cases is a good way of describing this situation.

With the exception of nearly immediate resurection: I cannot for the life of me recall one single instance in which Gandalf uses any form of "power" that is not elsewhere shown to be used by the Eldar. 

Take for example

The light from his staff in Moria/The Phial of Galadriel
The Brilliance of the White Rider/The Brilliance of Glorfindel (Both used against Nazgul)
The "words" of command/The Song of Lúthien
There are other examples, but this should do. I believe that Gandalf was limited to showing his full power. He was however free to demonstrate those powers that were native in Middle Earth. After all, Gandalf was not the only one to ever defeat a Balrog.

The only real difference in any "magic" of Gandalf and what can be found in the Silmarillion or Lost Tales, is that Gandalf was resurected into manhood, whereas Elves were rehoused as children.



RD


----------



## Flammifer (Jan 2, 2004)

I have shaped a theory. I believe that power of Command is given certainly to Maia and Vala, Elves that are half-Maiar, and _*possibly*_ to Elves _who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm_.



> The "words" of command/The Song of Lúthien



You compare it with the Song of Lúthien, yet you omit that she is half Maia.

I think that you should perhaps note, RD, that "Command" has a capital C. Thus it is a "thing", not just words that any Child of Iluvatar might utter and then the thing/person that they utter it at/to will just do as they say. I think that Command seems to be more of a term for (though I am loth to use this description) "magic words".



> I had to speak a word of Command



That's Gandalf that says that. He _had_ to speak a word of Command. Bear in mind that this is _after_ the Balrog has uttered () a counter-spell. Therefore, the word of Command had to be more powerful than the spell of a Maia, a spell that is described _by another Maia_ as being "terrible".

Boromir says "the Ring would give me power of Command". In the Ring is contained a great part of the power of a Maia. Now we know that Gandalf also uses Command. Here are two instances of Maiar using Command, and none of Elves or Men. I think Command is given only to Maiar and Valar.



> The light from his staff in Moria/The Phial of Galadriel



The difference here is that Gandalf provided this light from the power that is within himself, whereas the Phial of Galadriel was provided by Earendil's Silmaril, and Galadriel only gathered the light.



> The Brilliance of the White Rider/The Brilliance of Glorfindel (Both used against Nazgul)



Now you are getting somewhere interesting. Gandalf obviously has power over the Nazgul, and Gandalf himself says that Glorfindel has power over those who dwell in the Unseen World, because he has dwelt in the Blessed Realm.

Now, consider also the fact that Glorfindel of Gondolin and Ecthelion of Gondolin slew Balrogs. Maybe it was by power of Command that they were able to do so, and they could utter Command because they had dwelt in the Blessed Realm? Who knows? I can't be bothered making any kind of definite judgement (not that I have the authority to do so anyway).


----------



## Lantarion (Jan 2, 2004)

I think you're right Flammifer. After all, it is never specified what the so-called 'Elvish magic' (as Sam calls it) actually is; maybe this is just that. And perhaps Fëanor had an exceptional amount of this spirit of Command, which was why he was able to create such masterpieces of craftmanship (oh and three useless jewels ).


----------



## Inderjit S (Jan 2, 2004)

There was no 'word of command' when Ecthelion and Glorfindel slew the Balrogs. Ecthelion simply stabbed Gothmog with his helmet and tripped him into the fountain, whilst Glorfindel dragged the Balrog down his Balrog down the abyss from Cirith Thoronath. 

Glorfindel's inherent power was increased due to his sacrifice. "He had almost become a equal to the Maia." He was immensely powerful. Some Elves may have claimed equal 'strength' to Maia. Lúthien (who was half-Maia) and Fëanor spring to mind. Galadriel may rank alongside Lúthien and Fëanor. 

The Maia had some qualities which the incarnates could not match. They were supposed to be brilliant at interpreting and understanding languages alien to them. Finrod, who easily interpreted the language of the Bëorians was said to have about as much skill in interpreting speech as the least of the Maia. 

Some incarnates could even slay Maia. Gil-Galad and Elendil Voronda slew Sauron, whilst he was wearing the one ring, an amazing achievement.


----------



## Flammifer (Jan 2, 2004)

Lantarion said:


> I think you're right Flammifer. After all, it is never specified what the so-called 'Elvish magic' (as Sam calls it) actually is; maybe this is just that. And perhaps Fëanor had an exceptional amount of this spirit of Command, which was why he was able to create such masterpieces of craftmanship (oh and three useless jewels ).



Hehe. Yes, I agree that could be the reason Fëanor managed to achieve such a feat. And even if I'm wrong in saying that Elves could speak a word of Command, then surely it was the Light of Valinor that gave Fëanor the ability to make these jewels.



Inderjit S said:


> There was no 'word of command' when Ecthelion and Glorfindel slew the Balrogs. Ecthelion simply stabbed Gothmog with his helmet and tripped him into the fountain, whilst Glorfindel dragged the Balrog down his Balrog down the abyss from Cirith Thoronath.



I see. Unfortunately my knowledge only extends to LotR and The Silmarillion, so inferences that I make are only based on those texts. I now see that I was wrong when I suggested that Elves might be able to speak a word of Command. Thanks for clearing it up! 



Inderjit S said:


> Glorfindel dragged the Balrog down his Balrog



I know what you mean, Inder, it just sounds funny when you read it!


----------



## Úlairi (Jan 3, 2004)

Let me see RD, there's quite a few powers that Gandalf exhibits that I have not seen any of the Quendi commit.


Gandalf's fireworks.
The light seen from Amon Sûl, which was obviously Gandalf fending off those terrrible Úlairi. 
The horses in the flood of Elrond to stop the Nazgûl (and although Elrond made the flood, he certainly didn't make any floods look like horses in LoTR. 
The fire that Gandalf made with his staff on Caradhras.
The wonderful fireworks to fend off the Orks when Gandalf, Bilbo and Co. were all stuck up trees in _The Hobbit_.
When Gandalf cracked Saruman's staff.
Gandalf removing the weapons of Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli when they thought he was Saruman after seeing him for the first time after the fall of the Balrog.

There are plenty more RD, do you want me to list the rest?


----------



## Rangerdave (Jan 3, 2004)

Gandalf's fireworks.The guy down the street from me makes fireworks, hardly a convincing argument here.

The light seen from Amon Sûl, which was obviously Gandalf fending off those terrrible Úlairi. More that likely so, but where is your proof

The horses in the flood of Elrond to stop the Nazgûl (and although Elrond made the flood, he certainly didn't make any floods look like horses in LoTR. Galadriel made every surviving member of the fellowship halucinate. Why should Gandalf have any trouble at all with a half dead Hobbit?

The fire that Gandalf made with his staff on Caradhras.ever heard of matches?

The wonderful fireworks to fend off the Orks when Gandalf, Bilbo and Co. were all stuck up trees in The Hobbit. see above

When Gandalf cracked Saruman's staff. Shoddy workmanship I would think

Gandalf removing the weapons of Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli when they thought he was Saruman after seeing him for the first time after the fall of the Balrog.He didn't remove the weapons, he asked them to put their weapons down and they did.


Now I have been having a bit of fun with you, but the point I am making is that each of the examples you have presented show Gandalf's skill rather than 'magical' powers. The only example show above that I am willing to concede is that Gandalf demonstrated a portion of his True power on Amon Sul. But this is hardly something that can be held against him. After all. no one was there to discover his big secret. But then again Tolkien never states that Gandalf could control electricity. So the world may never know.

As for the fires at time of need, Why must this be Maia magics. surely the Noldor could combust things. I find it very hard to believe that a group of people who could create gemstones and harness light in a bottle could not figure out a way to burn snow.


RD


----------



## Confusticated (Jan 3, 2004)

As for the question the thread was opened with, I'd have answered as jallan did, but in other words obviously.


Jallan said:


> Gandalf is somewhat like a UN social worker with advanced technology attempting to aid a less technologically advanced community.
> 
> The worker's job is to teach the people to better themselves without becoming dependant on UN aid or on the worker (though both in fact sometimes happen).



It's not a matter of what Gandalf _could_ do, but what he _should_ do.

There's been talk about times when Gandalf did not do all that he probably could have. But no one has given a specific case that satisfies me. When was Gandalf not sufficient? 

Sure, he had the power to do more, but the way I see... Gandalf worked in doing as little as possible to get the job done. Little in that he was subtle, not little in worth or impact.

If one can not see why this is, and thinks that Gandalf should have done a lot more with his Maia powers, I'd ask: Why then not ask why the Valar didn't come capture Sauron as soon as they knew he was reshaping? I mean... if this is how one expects Gandalf to work... then lets get to the root of the problem and ask why bother sending him at all, when Tulkas could have come and taken Sauron away? In fact why not immediately do away with any evil powers that arise? That is just not how it works.

But this topic reminds me: Why did Men have to deal with Sauron? Surely not as a punishment for the Numenorean attack on Aman. It did bring people together, but this is obviously a temperary lesson.. soon to be forgotten no doubt. What did it do for men in the long run? I sometimes begin to think that Sauron was for the elves... his arising in Evil in the Second age made for the Rings of Power, and in the Third the destruction of them. This stinks to me like a lesson to the Eldar... not Men. This showed the elves they could not have it both ways... they can not have undying lands outside of the Undying Lands. I wouldn't go so far as saying that Sauron was a punishment to the Eldar for not taking up the invitation to Aman when it was re-opened for them (even though many Noldor crawled back to the Valar when Sauron arose in the Second Age... and the cynic in me thinks wryly that this is what the Valar wanted of the Noldor since the rebelion )... but rather it was a part in the Doom of their waining. Added to this the fact that Sauron was the last of his kind when the Elves had gone and the world was left to Mortals... only further convinces me. Though I see that Sauron's rise in the Second Age hasten the inevitable... Numenore's fall.

and a PS regarding Gandalf's restrictions: I believe (and correct me if there is something that disproves this... perhaps in the Letters?) that Gandalf was sent by the Valar in form as an incarnate, fully bound to his body and able to be slain, _but_ after his fall in Moria he was resent by Eru, and I believe that at this point, as Gandalf the White, he was self-arrayed, some of his restictions at least were no more. But I think he still used his sense that less was better.


----------



## Inderjit S (Jan 3, 2004)

Could Elves make magic diamond studs that only came off when commanded too?  

Nom, I assume you are talking about this quote from 'Myths Transformed' (HoME 10)



> Sauron, however, was a problem that Men had to deal with finally: the first of the many concentrations of Evil into definite power-points that they would have to combat, as it was also the last of those in 'mythological' personalized (but non-human) form.



And, yes Gandalf was sent back by Eru. 



> He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. 'Naked I was sent back – for a brief time, until my task is done'. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time


 'Letter 156; Letters of Tolkien'


----------



## jallan (Jan 3, 2004)

Nóm posted:


> It's not a matter of what Gandalf _could_ do, but what he _should_ do.


In fact it was both. Gandalf presumably couldn’t with any chance of reasonable success pitted himself against Sauron alone. (For one thing, Sauron wasn’t alone but had hoards of followers and slaves.)

Gandalf did try to rouse the White Council to put an end to Sauron, and presumably in the resulting attack on Dol Guldur Gandalf used his power to the fullest that he felt was allowed.


> I mean... if this is how one expects Gandalf to work... then lets get to the root of the problem and ask why bother sending him at all, when Tulkas could have come and taken Sauron away? In fact why not immediately do away with any evil powers that arise? That is just not how it works.


This is a weakness in Tolkien’s legendarium if you want things like that explained. When asked why Sauron was allowed to escape alive from the drowning of Númenor, Tolkien answered in letter 211:


> That Sauron was not himself destroyed in the anger of the One is not my fault: the problem of evil, and its apparent toleration, is a permanent one for all who concern themselves with our world.


In fact. assuming a good God who is omnipotent it is obvious enough that God and his angelic servants do tolerate evil within our world. 

But that is a theological problem and philosophical problem beyond what Tolkien was dealing with. He just presents a world where evil exists just as it does in ours.

The best answer as to why the Valar do not intevene directly is that they have neither power or authority to do so. In their first battle of against Melkor the shape of lands was changed. The second battle in which none of the Valar themselves took part (only Eönwë and other Maiar), resulted in the destruction of almost the entire country of Beleriand.

Tolkien, sadly, never wrote anything more than a summary of the War of Wrath. But it seems that Maiar could not immaterially sneak up on Morgoth (and probably therefore not on Sauron) and simply assassinate him. They had to work with destructive power.

Sending Maiar to Middle-earth would have been to some extent like declaing nuclear war. And throwing down one tyrant did not mean that another might not arise after, just as Sauron arose after the fall of Melkor. Had it not been Sauron, it might have been another of Morgoth’s servants. Sauron is the last great godlike being of Evil, but his destruction does not in fact prevent violence and destruction and cruelty from continuing.

If you blast Morgoth with a lightning bolt, then what of his servants who survive? If you blast them, then again what of servants that survive? The Valar did not have that authority. They sent the Istari as something like UN advisors rather than declaring war.

And that did not work entirely well. Saruman started to play his own game. Radagast got too caught up solely with issues of the natural ecology.

Inderjit S posted:


> Could Elves make magic diamond studs that only came off when commanded too?


Perhaps some Elven craftsmen could. The magical technology might be less complex than that of the West Gate of Moria or the secret entrance to Erebor and seemingly Dwarves could make such magical gates without Elvish help. We don’t know whether Gandalf made the studs himself or had them given him. Perhaps those studs were made by Fëanor himself!

Then there is the talking purse of the troll. Again, in a world where magic and spells exist it’s not perhaps too far-fetched to imagine an alarm spell placed on a purse somewhat like a car alarm.


----------



## Confusticated (Jan 3, 2004)

Jallan said:


> The best answer as to why the Valar do not intevene directly is that they have neither power or authority to do so.


I think they did not have the authority. But my point was supposed to be for those who ask why Gandalf did not do more, why not go ahead and ask why those who sent him did not.


jallan said:


> fact. assuming a good God who is omnipotent it is obvious enough that God and his angelic servants do tolerate evil within our world.


Yes, I agree it is pretty obvious, which is why I wonder how some people are not satisfied with the way that Gandalf worked. 
If Gandalf was a problem, then so too should be the Valar who work in similar ways, and who sent Gandalf in the first place. The Valar usualy keep their distance and work in subtle ways aiding the Children... Ulmo's role in the WotJ is a perfect example of this, so is Melian who could have done more as far as using her power, but she did not. She gave wise counsel and it was then up to others if they should listen or not. To me, to see a Gandalf problem and not think it is just a small example of a much bigger problem is missing the big picture. But if someone can accept the way the Valar work, and then see Gandalf in that light, that person may begin to see soemthing they missed earlier.


jallan said:


> Had it not been Sauron, it might have been another of Morgoth’s servants. Sauron is the last great godlike being of Evil, but his destruction does not in fact prevent violence and destruction and cruelty from continuing.


I agree. Evil would always come up somehow, perfect reason that the Children need to work against it rather than have the valar swoop down and protect them. 

But it is because viloenece and evil will continue to happen among Men, that I don't see Sauron's final rise as being of much use to them in the long run. Though, it did start them off in a pretty good situation being somewhat united... but this was inevitably not going to last long... even among Men of the West who had fought amongst themselves before.


----------



## Confusticated (Jan 4, 2004)

Inderjit S said:


> And, yes Gandalf was sent back by Eru.


Thanks, but I knew Gandalf was sent back by Eru. The part I was giving as personal belief that someone might disprove, is that after he was sent back he self-arrayed... was not like an incarnate as he had been as Gandalf the Grey. I think LotR gives me more evidence for this than against it.


----------



## Úlairi (Jan 4, 2004)

Rangerdave said:


> Gandalf's fireworks.The guy down the street from me makes fireworks, hardly a convincing argument here.
> 
> The light seen from Amon Sûl, which was obviously Gandalf fending off those terrrible Úlairi. More that likely so, but where is your proof
> 
> ...



Well, just because they had tinder-boxes and what-not, the ability to draw fire from nothing but himself to me is indeed an exhibit of magic. Matches make fire by friction, a law of nature. As for the horses, Gandalf *admits* to Frodo in _The Council of Elrond_ that he did it, read it if you don't believe me. Gandalf breaking the staff of Saruman was a very important part of the book, it signified the end of Saruman and showed everyone that Gandalf was now in charge.  Shoddy worksmanship? Call it what you will.



> _The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers: Book I: Chapter V: The White Rider_
> *"The old man was too quick for him. He sprang to his feet and leaped to the top of a large rock. There he stood, grown suddenly tall, towering above them. His hood and his grey rags were flung away. His white garments shone. He lifted up his staff, and Gimli's axe leaped from its grasp and fell ringing on the ground. The sword of Aragorn stiff in his motionless hand, blazed with a sudden fire. Legolas gave a great shout and shot an arrow high into the air: it vanished in a flash of flame."*



Well, I stand corrected RD! Gandalf had been working out at the tracks (obviously), and had participated in the Hurdles events. You ever seen _Back to the Future II_? There's a character in the future called Griff, Biff's grandson, he has these things in his shoes that make him grow tall when he turns 'em on. Gandalf had recently purchased himself a pair of those also. Oh, I also forgot about those glow-in-the-light undergarments that you can get these days too. Gimli in his idiocy obviously dropped the axe in fright when Gandalf flashed his undergarments, Aragorn's sword was actually conducting heat (as it was a very hot day in Fangorn), and Legolas had recently bought self-destructing arrows from his friend Robin Hood as a pratical joke to scare the living cr*p out of people.  Well, that is indeed all clarified for me.


----------



## Rangerdave (Jan 4, 2004)

I must admit that my last post was inspired by an episode of Blackadder.



> Sir Walter Raleigh: Around the Horn the sun beats down so hard, it makes your head bleed.
> Blackadder: Well then, perhaps some sort of hat would be in order.



Ever since, I cannot resist that sort of reply.

      
RD


----------



## Úlairi (Jan 5, 2004)

Hehehe, I must admit that I've never seen a blackadder episode myself.


----------

