# I strove with the Dark Tower...



## BlackCaptain (Dec 11, 2003)

Now a quesiton on The Two Towers that just crossed my mind while reading...



> Very nearly it [One Ring] was revealed to the Enemy, but it excaped. I had some part in that: for I sat in a high place, and I strove with the Dark Tower; and the Shadow passed. Then I was weary, very weary; and I walked long in dark thought



Was this when Frodo put the Ring on at Amon Hen? That seems to be the only inteligable answer to this riddle I can think of... and would the high place be Zirak Zigil? Could it have been the Void? It seems i've almost solved the riddle but am dying for verification... feels like when I first joined! (And thats a good thing)

I've just finished the first book of Two Towers... Maybe that's what I needed... I'm feeling more and more tempted and inclined to come back, however I was somewhat reluctant until Thol persuaded me to make a visit... I'm going on to read the first half of Return o.t. King now... I'm getting into this whole war of the Ring buisnes... Just thought I'd update on where I am, and bring a couple topics to discussion.

Remember this is just a visit! Haha but part of me is glad to be back. My coming back is looking more of a possibility to me... 

cya 'round


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## Ithrynluin (Dec 11, 2003)

Hello, BC, nice to see you. I'm sure the feeling is mutual.  We miss you here, you know. 

I'd say your interpretation of that passage is pretty much correct. I don't think Gandalf was in the Void - that doesn't seem like 'a high place' to me. Perhaps you were thinking of the Timeless Halls of Ilúvatar? Though I don't think that's where Gandalf was either. If he wasn't at Zirak-Zigil, I'd say he was high up in a tree somewhere in Lórien. 

P.S.: I modified this thread of yours by copying the language question to the Languages forum and leaving the TTT question here. I changed the title to reflect this. Just so you know!


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## aragil (Dec 11, 2003)

The tale of years has Gwaihir bear Gandalf to Lorien on Feb 17th, TA 3019 (ofc the day after the Fellowship departs Lorien). The breaking of the Fellowship is not until Feb 26th. Looks like Gandalf was either in Lorien, or further downstream.


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## FoolOfATook (Dec 11, 2003)

I've always interpreted that high place as being a reference to Gandalf's, for lack of a better term, "presence" at Amon Hen within Frodo's head, urging Frodo to "Take it off! Take it off! Fool, take it off! Take off the Ring!". The next line says "The two powers strove in him.", using the same verb "strove" as Gandalf used in the passage that BC quoted.

Nice seeing you again BC!


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## Flammifer (Dec 12, 2003)

Hmm........I always interpreted the "high place" as Zirak-Zigil, but obviously that's not correct, as aragil has explained.......soo.....where could Gandalf have been? I suppose in Lorien, as Gandalf is not mentioned after "Gwaihir bears Gandalf to Lorien" in the Tale of Years until March 1, when the Three Hunters meet him in Fangorn. But doesn't Treebeard say to Merry and Pippin when they first meet that he saw Gandalf walking in Fangorn a few days before Merry and Pippin met Treebeard? So maybe Gandy was there..........it's hard to say, really.

I would say he was in Lorien, unless there's some quote which we've missed. Maybe the "high place" was the tallest _mallorn_ in Lorien.....where the Lord and Lady reside? This could be considered a Battle Between the Green Tower and the Dark Tower/Barad-dur.............they were about the same height probably, and it's very symbolic.......Lorien vs. Mordor......the largest institution of good vs. the largest institutio of evil? Any thoughts guys?


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## Lantarion (Dec 12, 2003)

I don't think the 'dark thought' should be interpreted in such technical terms.. Maybe Gandalf just brooded and rested for a while, somehow rejuvenating his Maia-spirit by resting his corporeal form through meditation?

Woah Flammifer, never heard that theory before!  Sounds intriguing!! And it also doesn't seem impossible.. I don't see what else the 'high place' might mean; it would be a long shot to assume it meant something spiritual or something within Gandalf's self.
Haha wouldn't it be funny if 'The Two Towers' really referred to Gandalf in Lórien and Barad-dûr, instead of the usual guesses? 

FoaT, that sounds very plausible, and maybe that was a part of the situation; but what would Gandalf actually have to do with the situation then, if it was really Frodo's own mind and psyche battling the Ring's 'will'?


BlackCaptain it's absolutely excellent to see you back for a while!! Hope you stay matie.


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## FoolOfATook (Dec 13, 2003)

> FoaT, that sounds very plausible, and maybe that was a part of the situation; but what would Gandalf actually have to do with the situation then, if it was really Frodo's own mind and psyche battling the Ring's 'will'?



But where does it explicitly state that the what happened was a battle between Frodo and the Ring's will?



> The two powers strove in him. For a moment, perfectly balanced between their piercing points, he whithered, tormented. Suddenly, he was aware of himself again. Frodo, neither the Voice nor the Eye: free to choose, and with one remaining instant in which to do so. He took the Ring off his finger. He was kneeling in clear sunlight before the high seat. A black shadow seemed to pass like an arm above him; it missed Amon Hen and groped out west, and faded. Then all the sky was clean and blue and birds sang in every tree.


-FOTR, Book II, "The Breaking Of The Fellowship"

This really seems to fit in with what Gandalf said, even if it seems a bit too "Obi-Wan Kenobi in Luke's head at the end of Star Wars"


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## Flammifer (Dec 14, 2003)

> But where does it explicitly state that the what happened was a battle between Frodo and the Ring's will?



FoaT, I think that Lanty just assumed that the other "power" that strove with Gandalf in Frodo's mind was the Ring's will...what else could it have been?


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## FoolOfATook (Dec 14, 2003)

> FoaT, I think that Lanty just assumed that the other "power" that strove with Gandalf in Frodo's mind was the Ring's will...what else could it have been?



Exactly what Gandalf says it was- the Dark Tower, the Shadow. In other words, Sauron himself. Notice the line about the black shadow passing like an arm- a metaphor Tolkien used more than once to describe Sauron's searching for The Ring.


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## Úlairi (Dec 14, 2003)

I'm definitely inclined to agree with FoaT here. Gandalf says 'it was nearly revealed to the Enemy'. Frodo 'strove' with the will of the Ring, but Gandalf with Sauron. The Ring was trying to fight Frodo until it's master could discover his location, but Gandalf, knowing Frodo's peril, strove with Sauron before he could reach him.


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## Lantarion (Dec 15, 2003)

Ah! How silly of me! I've kept having the impression that Gandalf somehow affected Frodo's mind and through that he took the Ring off.. It certainly seemed that way, with Frodo hearing "Take it off, fool!". 
But yeah it makes a lot of sense now. Sauron was looking for the wearer of his Ring, he found him and was bending him to his will; but Gandalf intervened somehow and did not direct his thought on Frodo, but on Sauron. 
So Frodo's eventual decision was really dependant more on himself than Gandalf, and the 'voice' he heard could have been his or Gandalf's.


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## Flammifer (Dec 15, 2003)

Whoops! 

Sorry guys, I just misinterpreted what you were saying! I agree with you now FoaT, Ulairi and Lanty! Thanks!


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## Úlairi (Dec 16, 2003)

One is glad to be of service.  Another question might be: "How did Gandalf know?". The answer is simple, Narya the Red.


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## Flammifer (Dec 17, 2003)

Oh yeah! It seems a pretty obvious question to ask.....but I never thought of it, and seems pretty clear that no one did either! But yeah, that's true! Well done again Ulairi!


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## Arvedui (Dec 17, 2003)

I should know better that to barge in like this, but here goes:
*Checking size of my mouth to see if the foot fits...*

Don't quite agree with you, Ulairi.
Remember who Gandalf was, especially at this stage. He was not Gandalf the Grey anymore. 
Why should Narya have such great powers now, when it didn't have it before? With this I mean that Gandalf had Narya all those times when Bilbo used the One Ring, so if Narya was so powerful, it should have made Gandalf understand a lot sooner.
A better example is perhaps at Weathertop. No sign of Gandalf taking part in the action there. He had Narya at that time too, and he knew which Ring Frodo carried. In fact, he also knew the approximate whereabouts of Frodo and the others.


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## Úlairi (Dec 17, 2003)

Yes, I thought of that Arvedui. Weathertop can be explained a little easier, and that is that he simply wasn't there. And if he did know, there wasn't much he could do to stop the Nazgul, that was the Company's fight and Gandalf knew this. Before Gandalf knew of the existence of the One, perhaps whenever Bilbo used it, he didn't know because he wasn't aware of the true nature of Bilbo's Ring. However, he does mention that a dark shadow fell over his heart. But now Gandalf would be far more cautious, and I believe he would certainly be on the lookout for the power of the One. Your proposition that he has an in-built alarm device because he's no longer Grey sounds a little more proposterous to me. We know that the Nine are bound to their Rings, and they perceive the One at all times. They are merely men, where as Gandalf is Maia. Acknowledged, their Rings were sullied by the hand of Sauron, but the power of the Three was subservient to the power of the One. So I believe it far more likely that Gandalf can detect the One through Narya than being a white Wizard rebuilt by the hands of the Valar. The problem that I have with the Valar even sending the Wizards to ME is that they said they wouldn't interfere any longer. However, even Gandalf mentions that the coming of the Ring to Bilbo was more than just the will of the Ring. I believe the Valar interfered a lot more than we first believe, and this is hypocrisy on their part. The hypocrisy of the Valar. Would make an interesting topic, I'll get right to it! Let's not forget that Saruman didn't have power like that. He knew they were at Caradhras from simple logical deduction. Then the Uruk-Hai followed them. Saruman couldn't detect when Frodo used the Ring. Why? He didn't have a Ring of Power.


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## Arvedui (Dec 18, 2003)

Your points does make a lot of sense, and probably the 'truth' is somewhere between your suggestion and mine.
The Rings of Power enhanced the powers of the bearer, so wielding Narya, Gandalf the White would be more powerful than Saruman the White, IMO.



> I believe the Valar interfered a lot more than we first believe, and this is hypocrisy on their part.


 I agree. There are a number of hints at this in the texts, but the one you mentioned is probably the strongest. I'll look forward to your 'Valar hypocracy'-thread.


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## Úlairi (Dec 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Arvedui _
> *Your points does make a lot of sense, and probably the 'truth' is somewhere between your suggestion and mine.
> The Rings of Power enhanced the powers of the bearer, so wielding Narya, Gandalf the White would be more powerful than Saruman the White, IMO.
> 
> I agree. There are a number of hints at this in the texts, but the one you mentioned is probably the strongest. I'll look forward to your 'Valar hypocracy'-thread. *



Thanks Arvedui! It may take me some time, I need to get my copy of the Sil back from a greedy friend!


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