# 3rd continent?



## Arda's Bane (Jun 12, 2002)

I have read a fair bit of Tolkiens work, looked at a good deal of sites and never found this forum. ohh well
You will find my opinions on a good deal of threads to come.
This forum seems truly great but why is it that their are alot of posts going on about how their is nothing new to say ?
Anyway one question I do have is regarding the third island on arda (not the undying lands or middle earth) are their any records of these lands or its inhabitants as all i found is a short paragraph.
C ya


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## Niniel (Jun 12, 2002)

Do you mean Númenor or Eressëa? Or still something else?


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## Arda's Bane (Jun 12, 2002)

Im not to sure i think the latter. I think i remember reading something about it being populated by shelobs kind and un civised men.
Im kinda confusing myself


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## DGoeij (Jun 12, 2002)

Off topic, but there's a typo in your sig. Not all those who wAnder are lost. 

Welcome to the forum Arda's Bane, enjoy!


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## Arda's Bane (Jun 12, 2002)

I think that i am just confused, I remember reading about their being a third "dark" island filled with beasts and uncivilized men has anyone read something similar?


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## Arda's Bane (Jun 12, 2002)

I probably seem like an idiot but how would i go about changing that?


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## DGoeij (Jun 12, 2002)

Ehm...... now where was that?........ oh yes.....User CP (top left button on your screen),
Then go to ehm...........Edit Profile, then......looky here there she is! scroll down to Signature and change the typo. Then hit, Submit Modifications. It should be ok by then.
*wiping sweat off forehead*

EDIT: and yes you seem like an idiot. Also, you made me look like an idiot, because I changed my signature like four or five times, but I still have to look for it.


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## Anarchist (Jun 12, 2002)

Arda's Bane welcome to the forum.
Now what the heck are you talking about? I've never heard what you are talking about. I know that there are indeed three continents, the Valinor, the ME (that's why it is called Middle Earth, it's because it is the middle continent) and the place the souls of the dead go (I can't recall the name). You can add Numenor as a continent but it was just a big island, perhaps like Australia.


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## Lantarion (Jun 12, 2002)

*'The Atlas of Tolkien's Middle-Earth' to the rescue!*

Welcome to the forum, Bane, and great topic. I had been wondering about this myself before I got my hands on the AoME. It states (and has a map tp prove it) that there are indeed three large *continents*, not islands like Númenor, in Arda. The largest (I think it's the largest) is called Middle-Earth, which is much larger than the LotR would make you think: to the east of the known lands is Rhûn and the Orocarni (Mountains of the East), a very large area; immediately to the south is Harad, which is the northern part of the large strip of land called the Hither Lands. So, the Hither Lands start at Harad and end waaaay way down south, forming an additional 'continent' attached to M-E which is rather a lot in shape like Africa. 
Aman, the (supposedly) second-largest continent, cannot be wholly seen on the map. On the left a huge area of land is seen, labelled the Plain of Valinor. On the right a slightly smaller continent is seen, labelled the Walls of the Sun.
Right. And now we come to the mystical 'Third Continent', which is indeed called the Dark Land, or the South Land. It is situated between Middle-Earth and the Walls of the Sun, separated by a body of water called the Inner Sea, and is very densely forested. It measures at least 1800 miles long. 
I don't know anything else about the Dark Land, but I'll try to dig something up from the Atlas.
Whew.


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## tasar (Jun 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Anarchist _
> *I know that there are indeed three continents, the Valinor, the ME (that's why it is called Middle Earth, it's because it is the middle continent)... *



Are you sure that Middle-Earth is called Middle-Earth because of it's position in the middle? I always thought it had something to do with I-don't-know-which-nation's mythology. I'm pretty sure I read something about it from somewhere. That this 'middle' refers to something like heaven and hell and the earth between them. I could be mistaken, of course.


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## Lantarion (Jun 12, 2002)

Umm.. do you suppose it might be because Middle-Earth is between Aman and the Dark Land?
But you are right, Tolkien was influenced greatly by the Eddas of Norway, which tells that humans live on Earth, called Middengard or something like that. That's where he got the idea for M-E, supposedly.

And as a note on my previous post, the Númenóreans sailed to the Dark Land many many times on their great voyages.


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## Tyaronumen (Jun 12, 2002)

Hmmm.. but are these "Dark Lands" mentioned specifically in the LoTR as a "separate continent" or described to be in the location it is given in the Atlas of Middle-Earth? 

The reason I ask is because the AoME is riddled with inaccuracies and errors, many of which have been described at length by Mike Martinez (check out his brief review over at 'Amazon.com' under the AoME listing)... 

Karen Wynn-Fonstad does some interesting work, but her stuff on ME is not canonical (or accurate) in the slightest and should not be regarded as a reliable answer for questions on Tolkien.

(For instance, her visual representations of the realms of Beleriand are highly entertaining and of great interest -- but certainly do not reflect the intentions of Tolkien, any more than if I draw a picture of my conception of a dragon and decide it's 'Smaug'. Good art, good interpretation -- but not canonical)...


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## BluestEye (Jun 12, 2002)

Heya, Pontifex, good thread, eh?
I just wanted to ask a few questions:

1) Where are these "Dark Lands" first mentioned in Tolkien's books?

2) Do you know why is it also called: "South-Lands" though they appear in the AoME more in the East?

3) Where is it written that the Numenoreans went to these Dark Lands?

Thanks,
BluestEye


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## Arda's Bane (Jun 13, 2002)

I viewed a few websites in search of an answer and most of them only presented me with a map containing the undying lands, middle earth and numeror. Has anone else seen this map?
Did tolkien ever draw a map of all these places? (dark lands, valinor etc.


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## aragil (Jun 13, 2002)

Map V in The Shaping of Middle-Earth (HoME v.4) shows the Dark Land. I believe this is the map which was used extensively in the AoME.


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## Lantarion (Jun 13, 2002)

I don't think the Dark Land (note lack of 's') is mentioned in the LotR or Sil at all. It is understandable in the LotR because the people there haven't traveled much further than Harad and Rhûn. But what about in the Silmarillion?
Anyway, I'm just repeating what the AoME says, don't know about its accuracy. Although the book I refer to is actually called The Atlas of Tolkien's Middle-Earth; it says on the back that it is a revised edition of the original AoME, so maybe there are less mistakes.


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## Walter (Jun 13, 2002)

Ponti: Great idea to look that up in the AoME! And the chapter about the First Age reveals a bit more about how this "Dark Land" or "South Land" was created. 

Aragil is right, Mrs Fonstad seems to base her map on Map V from HoME IV: _"The Shaping of Middle Earth"_. There, in _"The Ambarkanta"_, Map V shows basically the same what the AoME has in the "First Age of Arda"-Map. Map IV in _"The Ambarkanta"_ (cf. AoME-Map "Spring of Arda") shows the status of Arda before it was rounded, the area between the Grey Mountains and the Yellow Mountains is what became the "South Land". Though it somehow strikes me funny that the Grey Mountains and the Yellow Mountains seem to have vanished somehow. 

However, Ungoliant was said to have dwelt in a ravine in Avathar before Melkor hired her again, so I'm not sure what Arda's bane is referring to. Btw. "Welcome Aboard", Arda's Bane


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## Camille (Jun 13, 2002)

Walter you stole the words from my mouth... or from my keyboard  , I was about to said about the original dwelling of Ungoliant, at the Sil it is said that she dwells in the south and was a land full of her terror, maybe that land is still with her prescence....


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## Walter (Jun 13, 2002)

Sorry, Camille...

Just let me know which part of my post I should erase so you can post it


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## Camille (Jun 13, 2002)

!! that is ok Walter no problem  ah but  you left me with the eagles-ents thread!! (just kinding!)


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## BluestEye (Jun 13, 2002)

"and there in Avathar, secret and unknown, Ungoliant had made her abode. The Eldar knew not whence she came; but some have said that in ages long before *she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda*, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwe, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service."

_The Sil, "Of The Darkening Of Valinor"_ 

Many of us (me included) thought this text hinted that Ungoliant came from the stars, outside of Arda. But now it can be explained in a nother way. Notice the "darkness" motive. Maybe it means she came from that "Dark Land". Maybe this is what caused Arda's Bane (Hello, Arda's Bane!!) her confusion. Arda's Bane, where have you read about this "Dark Land"? Do you also have the AoME?
Pontifex, I've found that map in AoME, but it looks as if this "Dark Land" is located more in the East than in the South... strange...
Do you have the AoME with the Black Cover? This is the newest version of the AoME that I know of, and this version is what I have.

Bluest Eye


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## aragil (Jun 13, 2002)

Oh BluestEye, don't get me started on the Ungoliant thing. I think that the key word in the passage is the fact that she _descended_, and she did so from a place outside Arda. Arda comprises the whole of the world, and so it would include the dark lands. For anyone interested in the origins of Ungoliant, I will ask Mr. Pence if it is OK to provide a link to a thread at LotR Online, where the subject is discussed at length.


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## aragil (Jun 14, 2002)

I got the go-ahead, so if anyone wants to see some debate on the origins of Ungoliant, proceed to http://forums.lotronline.com/showth...=&threadid=2176


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## Walter (Jun 14, 2002)

Once again I think aragil is perfectly right. Given what Tolkien has written, I don't think there is much room for speculation that Ungoliant "descended" from "South Land".

I think your former interpretation is closer to the point, BluestEye, save that Ungoliant already existed when the stars were not yet made (by Varda)...


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## BluestEye (Jun 15, 2002)

*Ungoliant and the Dark Land*

Dear Walter and Aragil,

I'm afraid you two misunderstood my words. I never said that Ungoliant was born before Varda made the stars, if this is what you think, Walter.
I only tried to speculate with you, guys, if this Ungoliant could have come from this "Dark Land", because... well, quote of Arda's Bane:

"I think i remember reading something about it being populated by 
shelobs kind and un civised men."

So this made me think: hummm, if it was populated by Shelob's kind, maybe Ungoliant came from that land. We all know that Shelob was Ungoliant's daughter, and we also know that dear-old Sam killed her, so she couldn't have run away after the War of the Rings and breed there new species of Giant-Spiders. So it must have been before Shelob's era. This takes us back to the Beleriand days, and in those days there was one Giant-Spider who "ruled" all other spiders in that long-lost land. And this creature was known as Ungoliant. So I thought to myself: "If Arda's Bane has read this thing about Ungoliant concerning the Black Land, maybe Ungoliant came from there..." But I don't think this is it. This was only a thought, and to say: "Don't get me started on the Ungoliant thing" is not propriate, Aragil, to this Forum, because here we talk about many topics of Tolkien's world. And if you don't like what other people has to suggest here, well... This is not a way to get people respecting you nor your words
 

Anyway, I've found another interesting thing about Ungoliant. In the Sil, after she escaped Melkor's Balrogs, she went under Ered-Gorgoroth and there she mated with other spiders who lived there:
"...For other foul creatures of spider form had dwelt there since the days of the delving of Angband, and she mated with them, and devoured them; and even after Ungoliant herself departed, *and went whither she would into the forgotten south of the world*, her offspring abode there and wove their hideous webs."

So here we read that Ungoliant actualy *did* went to the _forgotten south of the world_ and this is probably the time when she bred the spiders Arda's Bane was talking about.

But now I have a question to Arda's Bane herself... Where have you read this thing about Shelob's kind in the Dark (South) Land?

Bluest Eye


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## aragil (Jun 15, 2002)

I didn't mean for "Don't get me started" to be offensive, it was meant to be jokey. Jokey, jokey, see?


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## Hirila (Jun 15, 2002)

As to where Ungolianth came from... I remember having read in BoLT 1 (or was it 2?) that there were lands north and south of Valinor. (Of course this is from olkien's first conceptions of how Arda is shaped) And that in the south Ungolianth lived until Melkor came and persuaded her to come with him to destroy the Two Trees.


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## aragil (Jun 16, 2002)

Wait a minute. The only way that Ungoliant can come from within Arda (including Middle-Earth, the South Lands, Aman, North Aman, South Aman, etc.) is if we assume that the wise of Eressea were wrong when they say that 'she had descended from the darkness that lies about Arda'. I'm all for speculation, but is there any compelling reason to assume the Elves are wrong?


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## BluestEye (Jun 16, 2002)

Hey, Aragil, no problem  
And thank you.

About Ungoliant, I believe that what you, Hirila, have read about Ungoliant living in the South "until Melkor came and persuaded her to come with him to destroy the Two Trees" is in fact a description of Ungoliant's hidding place in the Southern parts of Aman, for:

"Thus unseen he [Melkor] came at last to the dark region of Avathar. That narrow land lay south of the Bay of Eldamar, beneath the eastern feet of the Pelóri, and its long and mournful shores stretched away into the south, lightless and unexplored. There, beneath the sheer walls of the mountains and the cold dark sea, the shadows were deepest and thickest in the world; and there in Avathar, secret and unknown, Ungoliant had made her abode."

Aragil, I still believe that Ungoliant came from another planet, that she was not of Arda. Bus as I've quoted before from the Sil, I believe she bred in the Dark Land after she escaped Morgoth's Balrogs and there it may well be that she ate herself to death as is mentioned in the Sil, and as many Elves believe.

As for the Elves of Eressea. I don't think they were wrong, saying that:
"she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda".

Bluest Eye


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## Turgon (Jun 16, 2002)

The Darkness that lies about Arda, BluestEye, refers I think to the void not the firmament of stars. Arda as it is conceived in the Silmarillion is not a planet floating in an infinite space - but a island in a void of nothingness. The windows of Nienna's house in the far west of Valinor were said to look out from the walls of the world...



> 'The Eldar knew not whence she had came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the Darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwe, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service.'



This quote suggest to me that Ungoliant was one of the Ainur, like Sauron and the Valaraukar, not a being from another planet. 'Descended from the Darkness' I think refers to the fact that Ungoliant was a late comer to Arda - arriving from the void, when the Physical world of Arda had already taken shape - as Tulkas did.


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## Arda's Bane (Jun 16, 2002)

"But now I have a question to Arda's Bane herself... Where have you read this thing about Shelob's kind in the Dark (South) Land? "
Firstly I’m a he.
But anyway I read this awhile ago when I was interested in the geography of arda. While I cannot remember the name of the book Tolkien may not have (directly or indirectly) written it, thus, bringing its authenticity into question.
Not only did it state that shelobs ancestor’s recided there but also breeds of human like beings that resembled orcs.
I found this book at my library and I will see if I can find it again and report back


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## Lantarion (Jun 17, 2002)

Bluest, my AoTME has a brown cover with a sort of compass in the middle. And on the back almost the first words are "This *revised edition* of Karen Wynn Fonstad's _The Atlas of Middle-Earth_ is an indispensable volume that will enchant all Tolkien fans." It was published in 1994, but I don't know of any other editions but these two.
I don't think that Ungoliant came from this Third Continent, as she/it was indeed a Maia, a very powerful one it seems to stand up to a great Vala like Melkor. 
I think I have heard of "Shelob's kind" living in the Dark Land too, somewhere (maybe from the AoTME itself!). But I see these supposed creatures being something like Shelob and Ungoliant, not related to them. Arda is full of terrible, unexplored places and who knows what creatures live there? The Númenóreans did go to the Dark Land, as can be seen from page 45 of the AoTME, but obviously no report was recorded in the Akallabêth or anywhere else in the Silmarillion, or UT. But I dunno.


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## Tyaronumen (Jun 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by aragil _
> *Map V in The Shaping of Middle-Earth (HoME v.4) shows the Dark Land. I believe this is the map which was used extensively in the AoME. *



Thanks, Aragil.


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