# Should the Valar Have Released Melkor?



## Inderjit S (Jul 15, 2005)

Should the Valar have released Melkor? If not, what should they have done?


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## Confusticated (Jul 15, 2005)

I will let others answer first, but I want to give something else to consider, for those who have not read it.An idea written down by the author...


> * HoME 10*
> But, if we dare to attempt to enter the mind of the Elder King, assigning motives and finding faults, there are things to remember before we deliver a judgement. Manwe was the spirit of greatest wisdom and prudence in Arda. He is represented as having had the greatest knowledge of the Music, as a whole, possessed by any one finite mind; and he alone of all persons or minds in that time is represented as having the power of direct recourse to and communication with Eru. He must have grasped with great clarity what even we may perceive dimly: that it was the essential mode of the process of 'history' in Arda that evil should constantly arise, and that out of it new good should constantly come. One especial aspect of this is the strange way in which the evils of the Marrer, or his inheritors, are turned into weapons against evil.



And elsewhere JRRT points out that for Manwe to unjustly hold Morgoth would be to step onto the same road Morgoth himself had taken. Manwe, not knowing Morgoth's true mind, must give Morgoth the opportunity to keep his word and do good. (However, this is complicated by Ulmo's foreknowledge of Morgoth's evil, and may tie in with his role as described to Tuor by Ulmo in UT... to seem to go against the other Valar's wills... and of a rift in the walls of doom.)

You've asked a complicated question because the answer is all tied in to how you view the role of the Valar and the nature of their way of governing in connection with their foreknowledge.

Though it might have been cool if Manwe had feigned to banish him to Middle-earth then turn a blind eye while Tulkas, Orome, and others plot an ambush at the Firth of Drengist.


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## Thorondor_ (Jul 15, 2005)

I agree with Nom's interpretation that it would have been immoral to hold Melkor unjustly. The other options:

- throw him outside Ea
- (Nom's) "it might have been cool if Manwe had feigned to banish him to Middle-earth then turn a blind eye while Tulkas, Orome, and others plot an ambush at the Firth of Drengist" - my favorite one too


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## Confusticated (Jul 15, 2005)

Well a couple of other options would be to let him out but not to let him go freely among the Elves, ever.

In one late version of the Quenta, JRRT has Ulmo specifically warning the Vanyar about Melkor. This was presented (if I recall correctly) as a reason that they were distrustful of him. Nothing was said of warning the Noldor though. I wonder - did he warn them? Failing to warn seems like the action of the non-Ulmo Valar.

But a good warning to the Noldor might have left some of them distrustful, enough to make a real difference. I don't think the Noldor were suckers by nature, they were just naive because they had never known any one like Melkor, they didn't realise what an evil person might do. It might be difficult to view the rebellious kinslayers as innocent (in a youthful sense) but in fact, wouldn't they have been innocent if not for Morgoth? Suspicion, pride, distrust... he put these types of cynical thoughts into their minds. If they had already had all this, the irony is Melkor might have failed with them... in my opinion it might be the case.

(Even though the Sil says Morgoth awoke these feelings in the Noldor, there are other indications that they were like this from the beginning, especially by what is said of their Avarin kin in the essay _Quendi and Eldar_.)

I find the fact that it took the Valar so long to realise Melkor was causing the unrest to be the most disturbing. Shouldn't a closer watch have been kept on him? And shouldn't they, knowing Melkor might not prove true, have viewed him as a suspect whenever any kind of trouble stirred?

But what becomes of the JRRT explaination that Manwe, not knowing Melkor's mind, had to free him, if you consider that Ulmo (who has access to Manwe!) saw through it?

And should Manwe have released Melkor for the reason that he knew it was necessary that evil continue to pop up? If he wittingly allowed evil, isn't that doing evil? Do you think JRRT was satisfied with this idea he had put down on paper? (The one I quoted above.)


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## Thorondor_ (Jul 15, 2005)

I think that ego in general leads to evil; and the noldor had a good amount of pride, so they were a good material for Melkor to work with.

I too am suprised by the Valar not noticing Melkor's action. Shouldn't they be omniscient of what goes on in Valinor (or well, at least Manwe)?

I think that Manwe had a moral obligation to free him, even if pragmatism (and prophylacy) would have dictated otherwise. After all, even Gandalf acknowledges that not even the very wise can see all ends. I gues it is a matter of good and evil intermingling, and of Manwe having faith in Eru's rules/justice.


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## Thorondor_ (Jul 26, 2005)

> If he wittingly allowed evil, isn't that doing evil?


I was most... "displeased" with this aspect also..I found this most interesting paragraph in Osanwe-kenta:


> If we speak last of the "folly" of Manwe and the weakness and unwariness of the Valar, let us beware how we judge. In the histories, indeed, we may be amazed and grieved to read how (seemingly) Melkor deceived and cozened others, and how even Manwe appears at times almost a simpleton compared with him: as if a kind but unwise father were treating a wayward child who would assuredly in time perceive the error of his ways. Whereas we, looking on and knowing the outcome, see now that Melkor knew well the error of his ways, but was fixed in them by hate and pride beyond return. He could read the mind of Manwe, for the door was open; but his own mind was false and even if the door seemed open, there were doors of iron within closed for ever.
> How otherwise would you have it? Should Manwe and the Valar meet secrecy with subterfuge, treachery with falsehood, lies with more lies? If Melkor would usurp their rights, should they deny his? Can hate overcome hate? Nay, _Manwe was wiser; or being ever open to Eru he did His will, which is more than wisdom_. He was ever open because he had nothing to conceal, no thought that it was harmful for any to know, if they could comprehend it. Indeed Melkor knew his will without questioning it; and he knew that _Manwe was bound by the commands and injunctions of Eru_, and would do this or abstain from that in accordance with them, always, even knowing that Melkor would break them as it suited his purpose. Thus the merciless will ever count on mercy, and the liars make use of truth; for if mercy and truth are withheld from the cruel and the lying, they have ceased to be honoured.
> Manwe could not by duress attempt to compel Melkor to reveal his thought and purposes, or (if he used words) to speak the truth. If he spoke and said: this is true, he must be believed until proved false; if he said: this I will do, as you bid, he must be allowed the opportunity to fulfill his promise.


(Like in the movie "In the name of the father", I guess I saw lack of wisdom in Manwe, when he in fact had more than wisdom, by having faith in Eru; good lesson.)
Later on, Pengolodh says that the evils of the release of Melkor ("ruinous outburst of his despair ") are balanced:"yet through this suffering there came also, _as maybe in no other way could it have come_, the victory of the Elder Days: the downfall of Angband and the last overthrow of Melkor", and further says, as Nom pointed out, that Manwe breaching his word would have been far more disastruous than the release of Melkor.


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## Telëlambe (Aug 4, 2005)

I think it was hard for the Valar to judge Melkor or Souron as none of them could contemplate the nature of evil in much the same way as they did'nt know fear. so how would they know is he was infact redeemed? remember they were there 1st and they couldt learn from others about punishment or any other concept for that matter, they had to kinda 'play it by ear' 
They didnt know about lies either, so if Melkor said he was going to be good from now on, they had no reason to doubt him. They were too perfect.


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## baragund (Aug 4, 2005)

Nah! As the Queen of Hearts said in Alice in Wonderland, "OFF WITH HIS HEAD!!!"


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## Thorondor_ (Aug 4, 2005)

Well, they couldn't force him to tell the truth anyway ("Osanwe-kenta"):


> The force and restraint that were used upon Melkor by the united power of all the Valar, were not used to extort confession (which was needless); nor to compel him to reveal his thought (which was unlawful, even if not vain).


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## Telëlambe (Aug 5, 2005)

If the Valar ever discovered the mind of melkor i think they actually would have thrown away the key. I mean he was the most evil and twisted being ever to exist.


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## Thorondor_ (Sep 4, 2005)

Hm, I don't entirely agree (from Osanwe-kenta):
"Melkor had the right to exist, and the right to act and use his powers. Manwe had the authority to rule and to order the world, so far as he could, for the well-being of the Eruhíni; but if Melkor would repent and return to the allegiance of Eru, he must be given his freedom again. He could not be enslaved, or denied his part."


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## Telëlambe (Sep 5, 2005)

Hmmm... Yeah i suppose. 
however with great power comes great responsability. Melkor had the greatest responsability to use his power for the glory of Erù. 
Anything concerning the Anuir's rights and morals ect is anserable only to Erù. maybe they didnt have rights, he gave free will to his children.


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## Grond (Sep 5, 2005)

Telëlambe said:


> Hmmm... Yeah i suppose.
> however with great power comes great responsability. Melkor had the greatest responsability to use his power for the glory of Erù.
> Anything concerning the Anuir's rights and morals ect is anserable only to Erù. maybe they didnt have rights, he gave free will to his children.


I don't have my books with me right now but I can tell you that somwhere in the works it states that the Valar were more easily deceived because they had no real perception of what evil was all about. And, they were only as foresighted as Eru would let them be. Remember that the fabric of history was woven with the Music of the Ainur and it was Eru who was the Conductor and not Melkor. The many movements of his great work were of his design and not Melkor's. Like Tolkien, Eru could have written any tune he desired.

Cheers,

grond


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## Telëlambe (Sep 5, 2005)

Erù only provided a theme, the chior provided the notes, and the details. The great song only provides guidlines for the worlds being, ultimatly they are left to themselves. 
A conductor does not play in the band. 

I do agree with the bit about the Valar not being able to perceive the notion of evil (being so pure and all)


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## Grond (Sep 5, 2005)

Telëlambe said:


> Erù only provided a theme, the chior provided the notes, and the details. The great song only provides guidlines for the worlds being, ultimatly they are left to themselves.
> A conductor does not play in the band.
> 
> I do agree with the bit about the Valar not being able to perceive the notion of evil (being so pure and all)





Silmarillion said:


> Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'


Eru was also the composer. Each Ainu was given lattitude to "interpret" his part but Eru controlled the theme. Of course, we can argue this all day since it falls right into the preordination or free will line of thought.

Cheers,

grond


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