# Sauron vs. Smaug?



## Radaghast (Dec 30, 2021)

Saw a question about this on Quora. 

Who would win in a fight, Sauron or Smaug?

The answers mostly favored Sauron, some going so far as to say that Sauron (and even Durin's Bane) easily outclasses Smaug.

What these answers fail to consider is that Sauron was vanquished by a Man and an Elf while wearing the One Ring. I fail to see what this man and elf, as powerful as they were, could do against a fire-breathing airborne dragon.

Thoughts?


----------



## Alcuin (Dec 30, 2021)

Ancalagon the Black, greatest of all winged dragons, was vanquished by Eärendil, a Half-elf. 

But the Quora question seems to me essentially misguided (as are many positions posited on Quora): Tolkien emphasizes (through the voice of Gandalf) that Sauron’s intentions were to use Smaug in an attack upon Rivendell. Sauron and Smaug were not enemies: they were allies, at least as far as their enmity towards Elves and Men was concerned.


----------



## Olorgando (Dec 30, 2021)

Radaghast said:


> I fail to see what this man and elf, as powerful as they were, could do against a fire-breathing airborne dragon.



Smaug was killed by Bard the Bowman with a single arrow. Elendil was a Númenórean, whom I would put at least one notch above Bard as a warrior, and there was this bit about the fearsome (hollow) steel bows of the Númenóreans.
In a similar vein, Legolas shot down one of the fell beasts carrying a Nazgûl. I would think Gil-galad would have spotted Smaug's weak spot with his Elven eyes - as would any of his warriors, and any one of them could have shot Smaug down.
I definitely do *not* envision Gil-galad and Elendil in the kind of single-handed combat with Smaug as seems implied in their ultimate confrontation with Sauron.
And I agree with @Alcuin that the whole question is misguided, as are so many hypothetical A vs. B confrontations.


----------



## Radaghast (Dec 30, 2021)

Alcuin said:


> Ancalagon the Black, greatest of all winged dragons, was vanquished by Eärendil, a Half-elf.
> 
> But the Quora question seems to me essentially misguided (as are many positions posited on Quora): Tolkien emphasizes (through the voice of Gandalf) that Sauron’s intentions were to use Smaug in an attack upon Rivendell. Sauron and Smaug were not enemies: they were allies, at least as far as their enmity towards Elves and Men was concerned.


Ancalagon is killed in circumstances never detailed, maybe not even for himself. Whatever, the details may be we can be sure it wasn't a balloon ride (and Eärendil's is a story I wish Tolkien had the time and/or inclination to write).

As for Smaug's supposed enmity, I don't see evidence of it. He seems content to snooze on a pile of bling for years on end. In D&D parlance, he's a textbook example of Neutral Evil.



Olorgando said:


> Smaug was killed by Bard the Bowman with a single arrow. Elendil was a Númenórean, whom I would put at least one notch above Bard as a warrior, and there was this bit about the fearsome (hollow) steel bows of the Númenóreans.
> In a similar vein, Legolas shot down one of the fell beasts carrying a Nazgûl. I would think Gil-galad would have spotted Smaug's weak spot with his Elven eyes - as would any of his warriors, and any one of them could have shot Smaug down.
> I definitely do *not* envision Gil-galad and Elendil in the kind of single-handed combat with Smaug as seems implied in their ultimate confrontation with Sauron.
> And I agree with @Alcuin that the whole question is misguided, as are so many hypothetical A vs. B confrontations.


Yes, by that token Sauron himself could fell Smaug. Any crack shot with a rifle could. Smaug has a "kill switch", if you will, just as Sauron does.

I think the thing here is that _The Hobbit_ doesn't quite jive that well with _The Lord of the Rings_, and that is largely because of Smaug. He seems to have what even the mightiest dragons have lacked, namely an armored underbelly. Without his weak spot, he is a bloody flying tank and I don't see how he could be stopped.

And he is killed in the most unlikely and convenient ways: The chink in his armor just happens to be over his heart; Bilbo just happens to have a magic ring that makes him invisible so he can see that; a thrush that can understand the Common Speech hears this from Bilbo; a man who happens to be an amazing bowman with a magic arrow also happens to understand birds, and the thrush just happens to know that Bard can understand it. In addition to all of that Smaug himself is unaware of his weakness.

It's a classic fairy tale, and there's nothing wrong with that, but it's something LotR is not, so the two are rather incongruous with each other.

So, anyway, I don't care about hypothetical A vs. B either. I just thought the idea that Sauron could crush Smaug like a bug laughable.


----------



## Olorgando (Dec 30, 2021)

Radaghast said:


> I just thought the idea that Sauron could crush Smaug like a bug laughable.


Especially if you consider that Sauron in the Third Age, without his one Ring, had also taken some serious damage by then and was seriously reduced in native power. Going backwards in M-e time, the last impairment was the loss of his One Ring in 3441 Second Age - serious enough (perhaps after Gil-galad and Elendil had also done some serious damage in that face-to-face combat, JRRT doesn't provide details) for him to become disembodied. Rewind to 122 years earlier at the end of the Second Age, he has his embodied form utterly destroyed at the fall of Númenor. Rewind to the late 460's in the First Age, Sauron gets utterly thrashed by Huan (who is accompanying Lúthien in the quest to free Beren from Sauron's stronghold on Tol-in-Gaurhoth, First Age Minas Tirith on what used to be named Tol Sirion) who apparently could also have destroyed his embodied form.

Taking that M-e "historical fact" and combine with that Quora assumption - I mean, Huan must have been able to munch on Smaug like Hobbits on second breakfast - or not? 🤪


----------



## Radaghast (Dec 30, 2021)

Yup, also good points 👍


----------



## Olorgando (Dec 30, 2021)

Radaghast said:


> And he is killed in the most unlikely and convenient ways: The chink in his armor just happens to be over his heart; ...


Actually, this is one point that makes sense, at least to me. Smaug's heart (flying is very strenuous) must have been about the size of a blue whale's - one measured from a stranded blue whale weighed 468 pounds. The beating of this huge, powerful heart could well cause any encrustations to fall off all the time.

I grant that the scientific literature on this topic is skimpy.


----------



## Radaghast (Dec 30, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> Actually, this is one point that makes sense, at least to me. Smaug's heart (flying is very strenuous) must have been about the size of a blue whale's - one measured from a stranded blue whale weighed 468 pounds. The beating of this huge, powerful heart could well cause any encrustations to fall off all the time.
> 
> I grant that the scientific literature on this topic is skimpy.


Actually, I thought somewhat along the same lines, except more heat than tectonics.


----------



## Alcuin (Dec 31, 2021)

For a little context on dragons and their presumed sizes, here is a thread from eight months ago: *New Findings on Smaug's Real-life Ancestors* regarding pterosaurs and their comparative sizes to small airplanes and human beings. At least one species of pterosaur discovered in the paleontological record also had a long tail – just as dragons like Smaug are described. 

Birds, now presumed to have descended from flying dinosaurs, have 4-chambered hearts like mammals, but theirs are proportionately larger than mammalian hearts. This article from Eastern Kentucky University describes avian hearts and circulatory systems and includes x-rays depicting the heart of a grey heron, which Wikipedia describes as “a large bird, standing up to 100 cm (40 in) tall and measuring 84–102 cm (33–40 in) long with a 155–195 cm (61–77 in) wingspan. The body weight can range from 1.02–2.08 kg (2 lb 4 oz–4 lb 9+1⁄4 oz).” The heart is centrally located in the thoracic cavity and appears to be between one-third and one-half the body width and (I am presuming) in front of the lungs. 

We could speculate on draconian physiology: hollow bones (to reduce weight for flying), how they breath fire and how it is ignited, etc. – I’ve seen these sorts of things years and years ago in D&D magazines, and I’m sure they could be found online. Getting underneath one to get a shot at it, whether with bow, spear, lance, or sword, must be rather challenging. 

From Sauron’s point of view, his best bet would be to entrap, enchant, ensnare, or otherwise trick, trap, or entice the dragon rather than to confront it outright: If Gandalf was right about Sauron’s intention of using the monster to attack Elven strongholds (since it was Tolkien’s idea, I’d bet he was!), Sauron’s killing Smaug would be completely counterproductive to his goals. He wanted Smaug alive, well, and fit to fight — and that is exactly why Gandalf wanted to get rid of the dragon, which is what led him to help Thorin & Co. in the first place. 

From “The Quest of Erebor” in _Unfinished Tales_:
​Thorin … snorted. “… You are playing some crooked game of your own, Master Gandalf. I am sure that you have other purposes than helping me.”​​“You are quite right,” [Gandalf] said. “If I had no other purposes, I should not be helping you at all. Great as your affairs may seem to you, they are only a small strand in the great web. I am concerned with many strands. …”​​


----------



## Radaghast (Dec 31, 2021)

I'm not trying to reason that they should have fought, only that Sauron could not hope to match Smaug physically, contrary to many opinions. As you suggest, he'd have to do it sneakily. 

Even using him "to terrible effect" would require some sort of guile since the dragon doesn't seem to have any ambitions aside from sleeping on his ill-gotten gains.


----------



## Aldarion (Dec 31, 2021)

Radaghast said:


> The chink in his armor just happens to be over his heart


If you look well, you will notice that heartbeat actually causes vibration of skin over it. Smaug almost certainly has a much more powerful heart for his size. So vibrations will have prevented the treasure from getting embedded at that place.


Radaghast said:


> And he is killed in the most unlikely and convenient ways: The chink in his armor just happens to be over his heart; Bilbo just happens to have a magic ring that makes him invisible so he can see that; a thrush that can understand the Common Speech hears this from Bilbo; a man who happens to be an amazing bowman with a magic arrow also happens to understand birds, and the thrush just happens to know that Bard can understand it. In addition to all of that Smaug himself is unaware of his weakness.


As with literally everything else of that nature in Tolkien's legendarium, I will refer you to Gandalf's "*you were meant*" speech from FotR.


----------



## Radaghast (Dec 31, 2021)

Aldarion said:


> As with literally everything else of that nature in Tolkien's legendarium, I will refer you to Gandalf's "*you were meant*" speech from FotR.


Yes, but at the time Tolkien was writing that he had notion he'd be writing that line


----------



## Aldarion (Dec 31, 2021)

Radaghast said:


> Yes, but at the time Tolkien was writing that he had notion he'd be writing that line


I don't think it matters. Fact that there is a hand of God in action underlines not just Lord of the Rings but Tolkien's worldview as a whole.


----------



## Radaghast (Dec 31, 2021)

Aldarion said:


> I don't think it matters. Fact that there is a hand of God in action underlines not just Lord of the Rings but Tolkien's


It kind if does matter to my overall point, but whatever, it's cool.


----------



## Alcuin (Jan 1, 2022)

Ok, Radaghast, I see your point: Sauron is not the Maia he used to be, and things that he once took for granted were taking a lot more effort by the end of the Third Age. Well, getting older sure beats the alternative! (My grandfather used to tell me he always read the obituaries first, and every day he wasn’t in them was a good day.)

Given your notion of Sauron’s decreasing physical prowess (_sigh!_) and Olorgando’s mention of Huan chewing on him like second breakfast even when he was in his prime, I have to admit that _physical_ confrontation between Sauron (near the end of the Third Age) and Smaug could be iffy for Sauron. On the other hand, I note that, particularly after that embarrassing encounter with Huan, Sauron seemed a bit less eager to engage in one-on-one confrontations: his excursion against Gil-galad (who was joined by Elendil and later by Isildur (Sauron’s shudder can be heard even now)) on the slopes of Mount Doom seems exceptional, driven, I conclude, by desperation. I find it difficult to imagine him confronting _anyone_ in the Third Age without resort to “magic”, the accompaniment of an army, or at least a couple of Nazgûl. “Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated.” (_Letter_ 246, slightly (but not at all misleadingly) out of context.)

I still think the Quora proposition, *imagine A vs B: who would win?* a juvenile pastime. (I’m not accusing _you_ of engaging in juvenile pastimes! but I think it’s a silly question. On the other hand, here I am wasting time posting about it, so what does that say about me??  )



Aldarion said:


> As with literally everything else of that nature in Tolkien's legendarium, I will refer you to Gandalf's "*you were meant*" speech from FotR.


In which case we should also consider whether _Tolkien himself_ is subject to this dictum, leading us to ask ourselves if we may _all_ be subject to it. From _Letter_ 328 in the last couple of years of his life:
​...A few years ago I was visited … by a man whose name I have forgotten… . He had been much struck by the curious way in which many old pictures seemed to him to have been designed to illustrate _The Lord of the Rings_ long before its time. He brought one or two reproductions. I think he wanted at first simply to discover whether my imagination had fed on pictures, as it clearly had been by certain kinds of literature and languages. When it became obvious that, unless I was a liar, I had never seen the pictures before and was not well acquainted with pictorial Art, he fell silent. I became aware that he was looking fixedly at me. Suddenly he said: “Of course you don't suppose, do you, that you wrote all that book yourself?”​​Pure Gandalf! I was too well acquainted with G[andalf] to expose myself rashly, or to ask what he meant. I think I said: “No, I don't suppose so any longer.” I have never since been able to suppose so. ...​​And that, my friends, is a sobering thought.


----------



## Olorgando (Jan 1, 2022)

Alcuin said:


> And that, my friends, is a sobering thought.


Certainly to people enamored of the lone wolf / solitary genius etc. nonsense; ain't no such animal.


----------



## Radaghast (Jan 1, 2022)

Alcuin said:


> Ok, Radaghast, I see your point: Sauron is not the Maia he used to be, and things that he once took for granted were taking a lot more effort by the end of the Third Age. Well, getting older sure beats the alternative! (My grandfather used to tell me he always read the obituaries first, and every day he wasn’t in them was a good day.)


Well, not quite, but then I haven't done very well at explaining my point. It's basically that, in Tolkien's legendarium, Smaug kind of sticks out like a sore thumb, just like the stone giants, Beorn's 'werebear' and trolls with Cockney accents. Smaug is almost like Chrysophylax of _Farmer Giles of Ham_ in the sense that he is a creature created to be totally separate from the legendarium. _The Hobbit_ overall was a book not originally meant to be part of his developing mythology, but it got drawn into it nonetheless (unlike FGoH, which is set in England and is a satire), but Tolkien never really made it fit (he wanted to, but it didn't work out). One of these things that don't quite fit is Smaug, who is not a typical Middle-earth dragon.

For one, Smaug doesn't seem to have any sense that he owes his existence to Morgoth; he doesn't talk as if he knows anything about the original dark lord or the overall history of Middle-earth. For another, he has an armored underbelly: why does no other dragon have this and why didn't Morgoth ever think of it (in retrospect it seems odd that Morgoth would send them out into the field with vulnerable undersides)? Third, he comes from an area up north called the Withered Heath, where other dragons exist. Whatever happens to these other dragons? Do they have no interest in the rest of Middle-earth? And do they all just starve to death up in the WH? In _The Silmarillion_, we are given the impression that the dragons are all destroyed in The War of Wrath and there is no indication that any escaped (though I could be wrong about that). I think, like the stone giants and Beorn's shape-changing powers, Tolkien just sort of sweeps them all under the rug, because they don't jive with the story he is telling in _The Lord of the Rings_, a more grown-up 'fairy story'.

So, anyway, since Smaug was not originally meant for Middle-earth, the "rules" of Middle-earth don't apply to him. Particularly, that Sauron may be the "greatest" and "most perilous" of Morgoth's servants, but Smaug doesn't appear to be anyone's servant. Gandalf fears that Sauron can use the Dragon "to terrible effect". Well, yeah. If Sauron manages to get Smaug on his side , he wins the war without effort. This is a big if, though, considering "neutral evil" Smaug is content to snooze away the time on the dwarf hoard, occasionally waking to terrorize the countryside for sustenance (does Smaug ever wake at all between 2759 and 2941?) I don't even know what Sauron could offer him. Or perhaps he would be able to dominate him mentally, but we see that Smaug himself has the ability to dominate wills.



> Given your notion of Sauron’s decreasing physical prowess (_sigh!_) and Olorgando’s mention of Huan chewing on him like second breakfast even when he was in his prime, I have to admit that _physical_ confrontation between Sauron (near the end of the Third Age) and Smaug could be iffy for Sauron. On the other hand, I note that, particularly after his confrontation with Huan, Sauron seemed a bit less eager to engage in one-on-one confrontations: his excursion against Gil-galad (who was joined by Elendil and later by Isildur (Sauron’s shudder can be heard even now)) on the slopes of Mount Doom seems exceptional, driven, I conclude, by desperation. I find it difficult to imagine him confronting _anyone_ in the Third Age without resort to “magic”, the accompaniment of an army, or at least a couple of Nazgûl. “Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated.” (_Letter_ 246, slightly (but not at all misleadingly) out of context.)



And the fact that, even in desperation, he can't himself remain standing after killing a Man and Elf is what cements the idea, in my mind, that Sauron would never even dare oppose Smaug in a physical manner, even out of desperation. It is interesting that Gandalf tells the Necromancer "is far beyond the powers of all the dwarves put together", suggesting perhaps that the Dragon isn't, though he actually is, as he proved by taking over Erebor.

As far as Huan, it's only fair to admit that he does get some help from Lúthien. When Sauron first approaches in wolf form, even Huan moves out of the way. Still, I don't see how even the most monstrous of wolves would be any kind of sport for a dragon.


----------



## Olorgando (Jan 1, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> It is interesting that Gandalf tells the Necromancer "is far beyond the powers of all the dwarves put together", suggesting perhaps that the Dragon isn't, though he actually, as he proved by taking over Erebor.


That's one of the totally misguided assumptions in this "A vs. B" hypothesizing in a case like this: that a tyrannical dictator would do *anything* personally - except in totally exceptional situations: Morgoth vs. Fingolfin (won, but wounds received never healed) and Sauron vs. Gil-galad and Elendil (lost).
No, Gandalf meant that Sauron had surrounded - insulated - himself by legions of underlings, starting with the Nazgûl. 13 Dwarves would not have had a ghost of a chance against that (and they also didn't "personally" kill Smaug, either ...)


----------



## Melkor (Jan 6, 2022)

Alcuin said:


> For a little context on dragons and their presumed sizes, here is a thread from eight months ago: *New Findings on Smaug's Real-life Ancestors* regarding pterosaurs and their comparative sizes to small airplanes and human beings. At least one species of pterosaur discovered in the paleontological record also had a long tail – just as dragons like Smaug are described.
> 
> Birds, now presumed to have descended from flying dinosaurs, have 4-chambered hearts like mammals, but theirs are proportionately larger than mammalian hearts. This article from Eastern Kentucky University describes avian hearts and circulatory systems and includes x-rays depicting the heart of a grey heron, which Wikipedia describes as “a large bird, standing up to 100 cm (40 in) tall and measuring 84–102 cm (33–40 in) long with a 155–195 cm (61–77 in) wingspan. The body weight can range from 1.02–2.08 kg (2 lb 4 oz–4 lb 9+1⁄4 oz).” The heart is centrally located in the thoracic cavity and appears to be between one-third and one-half the body width and (I am presuming) in front of the lungs.
> 
> ...


Big azdarchids like Quetzalcoatlus or Hatzegopteryx were probably mostly terestrial. With their size it would be very difficult and energy intensive to get yourself in the air. They probably got in to the air from elevated area. Once they were in the air, it was ok, because they were carried by air currents. So big dragons would have big problems with taking off.

Even big flightless dragons like Glaurung are very unrealistic. If he have long legs, it would be much more believable. But terrestrial dragon, which weight several tons, maybe even tens of tons, with serpent like body? The biggest discovered snake Titanoboa weight around ton, and it was mostly aquatic. Mosasaurids which also have serpent like body and some species weight in tens of tons lived in sea. Water supports this weight.

But probably biggest nonsense in Tolkien is, how forests in Middle-Earth survive Years of the trees. There shouldn't be any, because they don't have sun and photosynthesis doesn't work.

But I now this is fantasy and one can't think about it like that.


----------



## Olorgando (Jan 6, 2022)

Melkor said:


> But probably biggest nonsense in Tolkien is, how forests in Middle-Earth survive Years of the trees. There shouldn't be any, because they don't have sun and photosynthesis doesn't work.


Not quite _*that*_ outlandish. It's what trees north (or south) of a certain latitude do every winter. Deciduous trees dump their leaves, and the evergreens, basically coniferous trees at these high latitudes (and also altitudes). also "shut down shop". This period of dormancy is also referred to as the "Sleep of Yavanna"; my "The History of Middle-earth" index volume has several entries for this term in volumes XI "The War of the Jewels" and XII "The Peoples of Middle-earth" in HoMe. So this very long "winter" dormancy after the destruction of the Two Lamps by Melkor very early on appears to have been aided by the power of Yavanna. Yes, that's fantasy, but not entirely contrary to what we know of our natural world.


----------



## Melkor (Jan 6, 2022)

Interesting, I didn't know about that. But still, Years of the trees lasted thousand of years. I can't imagine that trees slept so long (and even lived so long, the longest living three is Pinus longaeva with a life span around 5000 years). But on the other hand, Yavanna is goddess, so she must have some divine power which allowed to her preserve this trees for so long.


----------



## Olorgando (Jan 6, 2022)

Melkor said:


> But on the other hand, Yavanna is goddess, so she must have some divine power which allowed to her preserve this trees for so long.


To use a modern term: it's in her "job description".


----------



## Radaghast (Jan 6, 2022)

Also, there's nothing in Tolkien's myths as outlandish as, say, a full grown goddess bursting out of the skull of a god 🤪


----------



## Elthir (Jan 7, 2022)

Melkor said:


> But probably biggest nonsense in Tolkien is, how forests in Middle-Earth survive Years of the trees. There shouldn't be any, because they don't have sun and photosynthesis doesn't work.



They do have the sun though, at least according to Tolkien's Elvish fairy tale _The Awakening of the Quendi_: *"Imin, Tata and Enel awoke before their spouses, and this first thing they saw was the stars, for they awoke in the early twilight before dawn."

(. . .) **"Now the Quendi loved all of Arda that they had yet seen, and green things that grew and the sun of summer were their delight; but nonetheless they were ever moved most in heart by the Stars, and the hours of twilight in clear weather, at "morrow-dim" and at "even-dim", were the times of their greatest joy. For in those hours in the spring of the year they had first awakened to life in Arda."*

This goes well with *Tree*beard's description in _The Lord of the Rings_ too, when he relates his tale about the Ents and the Entwives *"when the world was young"* -- including, for example, when it's said that the Entwives gave their minds *"to the lesser trees, and the meads in the sunshine . . ."* -- *before* the Darkness came into the North.

The_ Sleep of Yavanna_ is a wonderful idea, but arguably a Mannish one that snuck into the largely Mannish Silmarillion.

And yes, I "had" to


----------

