# Sauron's death?



## Holdwine (Nov 27, 2003)

Ok since Sauron's a Maia and Maiar's can't die because there not really even alive there sprits is Sauron really dead after Gollum fell into the cracks of doom and destroyed the ring or is he just power less like Voldermort in Harry Potter?


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## FoolOfATook (Nov 27, 2003)

Maiar can die. For example, Gandalf died after his fight with the Balrog, (actually, the Balrog, another Maia, died too) he just was brought back.


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## Holdwine (Nov 27, 2003)

but there just sprits in human form when there human form dies they go to the halls of mandos and can take another form from there


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## HLGStrider (Nov 28, 2003)

Either that or they are cast out into the void, sort of in a prison of nothing. I'd wager this was Sauron's case. It was definitely so with his boss, Melkor. 

A name I like a lot better than Morgoth, even if the Valar won't use it.


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## Gil-Galad (Nov 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by FoolOfATook _
> *Maiar can die. For example, Gandalf died after his fight with the Balrog, (actually, the Balrog, another Maia, died too) he just was brought back. *


mhmhmhm,yes,their bodies died.
But they didn't,they were spirits,only their forms could dide.As Elgee mentioned one of the possibilities was that they were just cast away in the Void,outside Ea.


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## Lantarion (Nov 28, 2003)

Holdwine have you ever heard of PUNCTUATION MARKS?! You know, commas, periods, semi-colons, that sort of thing?? 
Sorry it just gets to me.. 



> _Originally posted by HLGStrider_
> Either that or they are cast out into the void, sort of in a prison of nothing. I'd wager this was Sauron's case. It was definitely so with his boss, Melkor.
> 
> A name I like a lot better than Morgoth, even if the Valar won't use it.


YAY I use Melkor as well! 
Hmm, but Sauron wasn't cast into the Void.. He was rendered so impotent that he could do no harm to anything in Arda again, so he was just left to waft around with the breezes.  Haw haw, take that Mr. "All-Powerful Dark Lord".


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## Roilya (Nov 28, 2003)

isn't that because, he put all his power into the making of the ring? so when it was destroyed, he lost all his power as well?


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## Gil-Galad (Nov 28, 2003)

Yes,it could be said so.But still he wasn't completely destroyed,because he reamained a wandering spirit.He was still "alive",but without any real power.


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## Holdwine (Nov 28, 2003)

Yes i know about punctuation marks. I just forgot to includ them into my writing. So Sauron is wondering around power less like Voldermort in Harry potter.


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## HLGStrider (Nov 28, 2003)

Well, sort of, but with no chance of ever appearing again.


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## Gil-Galad (Nov 29, 2003)

I would't make such a comparisson between LOTR and Harry Potter.They just cannot be compared. 
The two books are so different that there is no chance for comparing them.


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## Roilya (Nov 29, 2003)

I think what Holdwine was trying to say is that, both Sauron and Voldermort put all their power into one thing(Sauron-The one ring,Voldermort-Defeating Harry). Both failed in these things, so all their power was lost. Now both are doomed to wander, powerless and shapeless. The only difference is Voldermort can come back because Rowling still has 2 more books to write.


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## Eledhwen (Nov 29, 2003)

Without digging out quotes and everything, the Maiar, being 'angelic' spirits, took bodies to themselves in the same way that we would take raiment (clothing) to ourselves. They did not need their bodies, but did become attached (addicted?) to them. Sauron found that taking physical form was more difficult each time his body was destroyed, though this may have had much to do with power spent on evil deeds weakening him. He did not go to Mandos, because that was a command to the Elves, not to the Maiar. As said above, much of Sauron's 'being' was invested in his Ring, so when it was destroyed he became so weak as to no longer be a threat.

Saruman lost his bodily raiment when slain by Grima Wormtongue. I am not sure why he was not still a great threat to the future of M.E., should he again gain bodily form; but maybe he was weakened by his betrayal of both the Valar and the people of M.E. who he was sent to strengthen. Nonetheless, when his spirit rose from his slain body, it looked wistfully to the West whence he came, but was blown on the breeze away to the east.


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## Mouth of Sauron (Nov 29, 2003)

> they were spirits,only their forms could die



What about Saruman? I got the impression that his spirit perished as well as his body, destroyed by the Valar:

"...about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and... as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West, but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh it dissolved into nothing." --J. R. R. Tolkien, _The Return of the King_

[EDIT]: Sorry, the post above mine appeared before I clicked the submit button, and I didn't see it.


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## Roilya (Nov 30, 2003)

well isnt Saruman an Istari not a maia? Is there even a difference?


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## HLGStrider (Nov 30, 2003)

Isitari is a form of maiar, an order of Maiar. . .just like a captain is a type of a soldier or a freshman is a type of student or a tiger is a type of wild cat.

I think the tiger is the best example because the others all seem to imply rank by importance or experience.


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## Eledhwen (Nov 30, 2003)

The Istari were sent to Middle Earth to help against Sauron, being of the same order of being as him (ie Maiar).

Balrogs are also Maiar, which is why Gandalf was a match for the one in Khazad Dum, and why Glorfindel was so amazing being able to fight the Balrog at Gondolin (BoLT2).


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## jimmyboy (Nov 30, 2003)

> but there just sprits in human form when there human form dies they go to the halls of mandos


The same thing can be said of humans and elves: they are spirits in material bodies. When they die their spirits go to another place. The elves to the Halls of Mandos, and humans to another place outside of the physical world.


> Balrogs are also Maiar, which is why Gandalf was a match for the one in Khazad Dum, and why Glorfindel was so amazing being able to fight the Balrog at Gondolin


Glorfindel was an elf, not a maia. But he was a powerful elf due to the fact that he came from Valinor, and had dwelt with the Vala.


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## Lantarion (Nov 30, 2003)

Yes jimmyboy, I believe the terms used by Tolkien for 'spirit' and 'body' are _fëa_ and _hröa_ repectively (and in singular form).

In the case of Saruman, I believe that his body died and then his spirit was let out, so to speak; and it tried to go back to Valinor, but because of all his wicked deeds he was notl et back.. And he was probably cast into the Void, but a more plausible possibility is that what happened to Sauron happened to him.


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## Eledhwen (Dec 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jimmyboy _
> *Glorfindel was an elf, not a maia. But he was a powerful elf due to the fact that he came from Valinor, and had dwelt with the Vala. *


I am aware that Glorfindel was an Elf; and that made his destruction of a Balrog all the more awesome, being a lesser, non-angelic being. 



> _Lanty_: Yes jimmyboy, I believe the terms used by Tolkien for 'spirit' and 'body' are fëa and hröa repectively (and in singular form).


add an 'r' for the plural.


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## Roilya (Dec 1, 2003)

so if sarumans spirit vanished in the wind, why did saurons stay and linger?


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## jimmyboy (Dec 1, 2003)

> In the case of Saruman, I believe that his body died and then his spirit was let out, so to speak; and it tried to go back to Valinor, but because of all his wicked deeds he was notl et back..


I agree. I think that's what happened too.


> so if sarumans spirit vanished in the wind, why did saurons stay and linger?


Well, I think they both were sent toward the east, wherever "east" is in Middle-earth. All I know is that it's away from the west, and that both spirits lost a lot of their inherent power. Probably they took to wandering wherever they could and did whatever they were able, driven by whatever was still inside of them.


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## Lantarion (Dec 1, 2003)

Well, I now see that yet another possibility for Saruman was that his _fëa_ was sent out of Arda. It is these words which make this matter so difficult to analyze, IMO:


> To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh *dissolved into nothing*.


LotR: RotK; 'The Scouring of the Shire'.

Also I firmly believe that the cold wind from the West is a link to Manwë, who saw that Curumo had so failed in his quest and done ill in M-e that he banished him forever.
Maybe Saruman's spirit is truly Nowhere: not in the Void, not in Arda, not in Aman... Somewhere between, in an even emptier palce than where Melkor is now.


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## Roilya (Dec 1, 2003)

but the valar dont have the power to vanquish spirits. arent men the only ones whose spirits just leave never to return? maybe theres a place where all evil people go, or something.


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## Master Peregrin (Jan 17, 2004)

*Sauron was not greatly diminished by losing the ring.*

pg 50 Harpercollins 2001

"He believed the One had perished; that the Elves had destroyed it as should have been done. But he knows now that it has _not_ perished, that is it has been found. So he is seeking it..."

So when the ring was melted in the cracks of doom, Sauron's plans for world domination were, once again, disrupted. But he'll be back after a thousand or so years of rest, don't you worry.


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## Starflower (Jan 18, 2004)

I think the quote you provided is a bit controversial... as Tolkien clearly talks about Sauron's total destruction on the destruction of the Ring, all that he had was put into the Ring and all that he had was destroyed. It is questionable why Tolkien claimed that Sauron thoguht the Ring had persihed, when obviously he would not have been able to come back if that was so ( I believe this is being debated elsewhere in the Forum but I'm too lazy to look for the thread)


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## Inderjit S (Jan 18, 2004)

As Roilya says the Valar could never destroy a spirit. Eru could, but not the Valar. Bodily raiments could of course, be destroyed.


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## Helcaraxë (Jan 18, 2004)

Lantarion said:


> Holdwine have you ever heard of PUNCTUATION MARKS?! You know, commas, periods, semi-colons, that sort of thing??
> Sorry it just gets to me..
> 
> 
> ...




He was cast into the void. 



> And walked the same ruinous path out into the void.



Describing Sauron. The Valaquenta, "Of the Enemies" or something like that, I forgot the exact quote.

MB


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## Barliman Butterbur (Jan 18, 2004)

Holdwine said:


> Ok since Sauron's a Maia and Maiar's can't die because there not really even alive there sprits is Sauron really dead after Gollum fell into the cracks of doom and destroyed the ring or is he just power less like Voldermort in Harry Potter?



Somewhere in LOTR is a passage explaining that after his downfall, Sauron becomes a powerless spirit or shadow "gnawing upon itself in the dark" (or something like that), but powerless to ever again become anything like it was.

Lotho


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## mr underhill (Feb 3, 2004)

The whole sauron thinking the ring was destroyed thing is the only real thing that bugs me in LOTR .


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## Flame of Udûn (Feb 6, 2004)

Sauron never thought the Ring had been destroyed. Read the book again.


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## jallan (Feb 7, 2004)

Flame of Udûn said:


> Sauron never thought the Ring had been destroyed. Read the book again.


The same.

In the chapter "The Shadow of the Past" Gandalf says to Frodo:


> And this is the dreadful chance, Frodo. He believed that the One had perished; that the Elves had destroyed it, as should have been done.


I find that quite reasonable.

Sauron gradually awakes and finds his spiritual form is lacking his Ring finger. He looks about and finds no new Ring lord. Common tales make no mention of the Ring at all or say it was destroyed. Boromir at the Council of Elrond says:


> I have heard of the Great Ring of him that we do not name; but we believed that it perished from the world in the ruin of his first realm.


Sauron may have been a bit puzzled about how much power he still had and that the foundations of Barad-dûr still endured and so forth, but oddities sometimes occur. Elrond at the Council was not _sure_ either that the end of the One Ring would necessarily mean the end of all Ring Power.


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## Grond (Feb 8, 2004)

jallan said:


> The same.
> 
> In the chapter "The Shadow of the Past" Gandalf says to Frodo:I find that quite reasonable.
> 
> Sauron gradually awakes and finds his spiritual form is lacking his Ring finger. He looks about and finds no new Ring lord. Common tales make no mention of the Ring at all or say it was destroyed. Boromir at the Council of Elrond says:Sauron may have been a bit puzzled about how much power he still had and that the foundations of Barad-dûr still endured and so forth, but oddities sometimes occur. Elrond at the Council was not _sure_ either that the end of the One Ring would necessarily mean the end of all Ring Power.


What jallan said!


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## Flame of Udûn (Feb 8, 2004)

Oops. I was basing my statement on Sauron's lack of surprise that he still existed, rather than a statement from Gandalf. So he did think it was destroyed at first, but thanks to Gollum (right?) he knows it still exists.
Anyway, back to point. Tolkien says:


> There was another weakness: if the One Ring was actually unmade, annihilated, then its power would be dissolved, Sauron's own being would be diminished to vanishing point, and he would be reduced to a shadow, a mere memory of malicious will.
> _The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien Letter 131_





> It was because of this pre-occupation with the Children of God that the spirits so often took the form and likeness of the Children, especially after their appearance. It was thus that Sauron appeared in this shape. It is mythologically supposed that when this shape was 'real', that is a physical actuality in the physical world and not a vision transferred from mind to mind, it took some time to build up. It was then destructible like other physical organisms. But that of course did not destroy the spirit, nor dismiss it from the world to which it was bound until the end. After the battle with Gilgalad and Elendil, Sauron took a long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the Downfall of Númenor (I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, which might be called the 'will' or the effective link between the indestructible mind and being and the realization of its imagination). *The impossibility of re-building after the destruction of the Ring, is sufficiently clear 'mythologically' in the present book.*
> _The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien Letter 200_


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## Narkano (Feb 9, 2004)

The Istari are indeed Maiar, but they are a special circumstance, given an actual human body(as opposed to a physical raiment) as long as their task endured.


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