# Mortals in the Undying Lands?



## morello13

*Valinor and Undying Lands*

When mortal LOTR characters, gimli, frodo, sam, and bilbo pass into the west do they become immortal or do they just die there?
ALso related to leaving Middle Earth, will i found out more about Gil-Galaad when i read The Sil, and is it correct that Elrond had his ring when he left ME?
thanks
J>


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## Niniel

Yes, you should really read the Sil to find the answer to those questions. You will find lots about Gil-Galad there. And I believe Elrond, Galadriel and Gandalf all took their Rings with them when they left Middle-Earth, since the age of the Elves and all things connected with them was over and their Rings had lost their power after the destruction of the One Ring.


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## Ithrynluin

They don't become immortal(at least those from LOTR don't) but they are special and are thus granted this grace to sail to the undying lands to find healing and peace there. Mortals' lives sort of "burn up" faster there (I think it says so in one of the letters - if I am mistaken someone please correct me) but they are healed and live in prosperity and happiness.

The Silmarillion consists of:
1.The Ainulindalë 
2.The Valaquenta
3.Quenta Silmarillion
4.Akallabeth (the drowning of Numenor)
5.Of the Rings of Power and the third age
Only the first three parts make up the Silmarillion proper,meaning that they tell of the First Age of the world (and even before that began).
You will not find much (or anything) about Gil-Galad in any of the first three parts,only in the last two parts. 

The three guardians of the elven rings (Elrond,Galadriel and Gandalf) all departed over the sea with their rings,because the time of the rings was over and they lost their powers.


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## morello13

thanks, did Gil-Gallad die or somthing? Why did Elrond get his ring?
So basically the ring bearers and Gimli went there, felt better, and then died? If oyu look in the appendix a it lists Gimli's death as fourth aghe 82, i dont quite understand it, if he sailed with Legolas in 1541 Shire Reckoning, would that be around fourth age 120? Is there anywhere in Tolkine;s work where the tales with oepoele of the fourth age? Like Cirdan, if he didint leave ME by the time Sam left(i don't remember) or any tohere characters like Gimli and Legolas?


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## Confusticated

Yes, those mortals who went to the undying lands did eventually die.

This is a section From Morgoth's Ring (one of the History of Middle-earth books)
This is Christopher Tolkien here, giving quotes from some of his father's letters.


> With this may be contrasted what he wrote at the end of his account of The Lord of the Rings in his letter to Milton Waldman of 1951 (a passage omitted in Letters but printed in IX.132):
> To Bilbo and Frodo the special grace is granted to go with the Elves
> they loved - an Arthurian ending, in which it is, of course, not made
> explicit whether this is an 'allegory' of death, or a mode of healing
> and restoration leading to a return.
> In his letter to Naomi Mitchison of September 1954 (Letters no.154),
> however, he said:
> ... the mythical idea underlying is that for mortals, since their 'kind'
> cannot be changed for ever, this is strictly only a temporary reward:
> a healing and redress of suffering. They cannot abide for ever, and
> though they cannot return to mortal earth, they can and will 'die' -
> of free will, and leave the world. (In this setting the return of Arthur
> would be quite impossible, a vain imagining.)
> And much later, in a draft letter of 1963 (Letters no.246), he wrote:
> Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to heal him - if that
> could be done, before he died. He would have eventually to 'pass
> away': no mortal could, or can, abide for ever on earth, or within
> Time. So he went both to a purgatory and to a reward, for a while: a
> period of reflection and peace and a gaining of a truer understanding
> of his position in littleness and in greatness, spent still in Time
> amid the natural beauty of 'Arda Unmarred', the Earth unspoiled by
> evil.


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## Ithrynluin

Gil-Galad perished in the War of the Last Alliance along with Elendil and Sauron himself. Thus ended the 2nd Age.
Gil-Galad passed his ring to Elrond before he set out to war.


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## Ithrynluin

Smeagol,I believe Tol Eressea is considered a part of the Undying Lands. Mortals cannot find the Straight path to it,because it was removed from the circles of the world along with Aman.


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## Nardil

We all know that several mortals went to the undying lands. Frodo and Sam both eventually wenty after completing their quests. But I have a question:

If mortals go to the undying lands, do they still remain mortal and eventually die there?


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## Niniel

Yes, they are still mortal. They can be healed of all their hurts and weariness (this goes for Frodo especially) and enjoy the Undying Lands, but they still die when it's their time. So I have been wondering if Frodo was still alive when Sam came... maybe they met again, but maybe Frodo had already died. That would be kinda sad


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## elfgirl

I heard something a bit different!!! I heard that after the fellowship, Faramir married Eowyn, and Aragorn married Arwen. I heard also that Sam, Merry, and Pippin eventually die, and when Aragorn's around 300 years old, he 'chooses to die', leaving Arwen to mourn.  I also heard that after that, Legolas sails to the undying lands with Gimli, and I also heard that Frodo, BILBO, and Gandalf sailed there. Is that wrong????  Yet, yes, they remain mortal. I also thought that if they weren't full elves, they had to be invited by the elves!!! Again, is that wrong???


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## ???

Everything right, elfgirl. But I think that Merry, Pippen, and Sam go to the Grey Heavens (a.k.a. the undying lands).


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## BlackCaptain

No, Merry and Pippin stay in ME and die eventualy, and they are burried next to Aragorn.

And i would assume that Frodo is still alive for this time (by the time sam gets there) because he was a ring-bearer, and bearing it prolongs life. Plus, being in the Undying lands would probly prolong your life as well, because its so peaceful there and everything


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## Anamatar IV

> _Originally posted by ??? _
> *But I think that Merry, Pippen, and Sam go to the Grey Heavens (a.k.a. the undying lands). *



No. The grey havens are where Cirdan abides...not the Undying lands.


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## Sirion

Mortals die sooner in Aman than they would on ME. Their lives "burn" away sooner, a la Luthien and Beren with the Silmaril.


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## BlackCaptain

I find that hard to believe. You die faster in the UN DYING lands? wow. thats wierd


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## HLGStrider

> Aragorn's around 300 years old, he 'chooses to die', leaving Arwen to mourn


She only mourned for a year. She then died herself, presumably following him to whereever men go.


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## Ithrynluin

Also, Aragorn is 210 years old when he dies, not 300.


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## Sirion

> _Originally posted by MorgulKing _
> *I find that hard to believe. You die faster in the UN DYING lands? wow. thats wierd *


It says so in one of the letters of JRR. Also, the lands are undying because the deathless live there, not because they grant ever lasting life. That was a mistake Ar Pharazon also made.


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## Niniel

Could you quote where Tolkien says that? I never thought of it that way, it's very interesting. That would also mean that Frodo and Sam never saw each other again (something we discussed a few weeks ago), since Frodo would probably already be dead when Sam got to the Undying lands.


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## Goldberry

> _Originally posted by Niniel _
> *Could you quote where Tolkien says that? I never thought of it that way, it's very interesting. That would also mean that Frodo and Sam never saw each other again (something we discussed a few weeks ago), since Frodo would probably already be dead when Sam got to the Undying lands. *



Oh, that would be so sad! I don't think Tolkien would want us to believe that.


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## Aulë

Well it is said that Gimli went to the Undying Lands, but in the Appendices, his year of death is given.


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## kohaku

> Oh, that would be so sad! I don't think Tolkien would want us to believe that.



that would be sad, but then again, Tolkien does write a lot of sad stories. I like to think they do meet again, but if it's true that mortals die sooner in the undying lands then it is unlikely.


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## aragil

If anybody is interested, there is a whole section in HoME v. X titled _Aman and Mortal Men_ (Aman being another name for the undying lands). I won't give anything away, but I don't think it's entirely consistent with what the professor said in Letters.


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## Goldberry

> _Originally posted by Pippin_Took _
> *Well it is said that Gimli went to the Undying Lands, but in the Appendices, his year of death is given. *



There is no date of Gimli's death in the appendices. He went to the Undying Lands with Legolas and passed out of the knowledge of the men.


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## pohuist

I don't think Frodo was already dead by the time Sam got to Aman. If I remember correctly, it was within 50 years or so. Frodo would only have been a little over a 100 years old. While it is a respectful age for a hobbit, its nothing unusual. One burns faster in Aman but Frodo had the ring. Remember how old Gollum was?
Oh, and btw, Frodo did not actually go to Undying Lands, he only was in view of them, on Tol Eressea.


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## Mirabella

Yes, but the Ring only granted longetivity so long as it was in the possession of the bearer. Once the Ring was destroyed, so was its power over the life of its bearer. Consider what Arwen told Frodo:



> For you know the power of that thing which is now destroyed; and all that was done by that power is now passing away."


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## Quercus

I thought it was posessing the Silmaril that shortened Beren and Luthien's lives.

And what about Tour and Turin? Didn't they both become immortal?


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## HLGStrider

Turin threw himself on his sword...


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## Sirion

The light of the Silmarils were the trapped light of the two trees, the sun and the moon are also from the light of the two trees. Since the sun and the moon are closer to land in Aman, they burned away mortal life faster just as a Silmaril did. 

It was my belief that Tol Eressea was considered part of the Undying Lands since elves live there.


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## Eriol

Please correct me if I am wrong, I'm saying this from memory, but for clarification:

Aman -- the name of the westernmost continent (land mass) before the world was made round. Now it is removed from the world.

Valinor -- the guarded land behind the Pelóri (big mountains) where the Valar dwell. It is an area inside Aman, but Aman has other regions as well. Ungoliant for instance came from the South of Aman, outside Valinor (I think it was called Araman).

Tol Eressëa -- the Island in which the Teleri came to the West. The Exiled Noldor live there after returning from M-E, they are not allowed to live in their original city, Tírion. (This always sounded a bit harsh for me, but they are close after all, and could visit their relatives (Finarfin's folk, mainly) easily).

Undying Lands -- these are the Lands in which the Valar dwell. So, by that definition (which could be argued, of course), only Valinor is included, since no Vala lives either on Tol Eressëa or in other places of Aman.

If anyone could provide quotes to support these definitions, they would be very welcome...


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## Aulë

Here you go Eriol, these quotes are straight out of EoA;

*Aman:* The continent on which the Valar made their home after the destruction of Almaren. There they founded Valinor, and there dwelt the Calaquendi; the Vanyar, the Noldor and those of the Teleri who journeyed from Middle-earth long before the First Age. There were dwellers in Aman before the Valar, though; Ungoliant had long existed in the southern land of Avathar.

To protect their realm from Melkor, the Valar raised a great range of mountains along the borders of Aman; the Pelóri or Mountains of Defence. They also filled the seas eastwards with shadows and Enchanted Isles.

In II 3319, King Ar-Pharazôn of Númenor, having been seduced and corrupted by Sauron, sailed on Aman with a great fleet. The King and his armies were destroyed, as was the land of Númenor, and Aman was taken out of the World. After that catastrophe, only the Elves could reach the Blessed Realm



*Valinor:*The land founded by the Valar after Melkor's destruction of their ancient dwelling of Almaren. Originally part of the World, Valinor could be reached by ship from Middle-earth. After the rebellion of King Ar-Pharazôn of Númenor in 3319 (Second Age), Valinor and the lands of Aman were removed from the circles of the World, and could only be reached by the Elves, following the straight road that was kept open to them. 


*Tol Eressëa:*The Lonely Isle of the Elves of Aman, on which Ulmo brought the Elves to Valinor long ages before the rising of the Sun and Moon, and on which many still dwell within sight of the Blessed Realm

*Undying Lands:*A name of Aman, or at least that part of it inhabited by the Valar, Maiar and Elves. The island of Tol Eressëa is several times identified as the easternmost of the Undying Lands, and, at the least, Valinor must also be included.

'Undying Lands' seems to be a name that originated among Men. The Númenóreans, especially, envied the seemingly endless life of those who lived in these regions. From the first, the Valar placed a Ban on the Men of Númenor, that they should not sail into the West from their island, or set foot on the shores of Aman.

Wise as the Valar were, though, they did not foresee the wiles of Sauron. This great Maia falsely persuaded the last King of Númenor, Ar-Pharazôn, that the ruler of the Undying Lands would be undying himself. Believing Sauron, Ar-Pharazôn assembled a great navy and sailed westward to make hopeless war on the Valar for the imagined prize of endless life.

The Valar could not permit this: Manwë called upon Ilúvatar, and the land of Númenor was destroyed and lost forever. The Undying Lands, which until that time had been part of the World, were removed forever from the reach of Mortal Men, though the Elves could still sail West and come there, if they would.

It is to the Undying Lands that the White Ship sails at the end of The Lord of the Rings. The Ring-bearers, Bilbo and Frodo, were the first mortal beings to set foot on the shores of the Undying Lands. Tolkien is careful to point out, though, that even in Aman, mortals remain mortal.


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## Eriol

You are very welcome


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## Sirion

> _Originally posted by Niniel _
> *Could you quote where Tolkien says that? I never thought of it that way, it's very interesting. That would also mean that Frodo and Sam never saw each other again (something we discussed a few weeks ago), since Frodo would probably already be dead when Sam got to the Undying lands. *



I finally found the quote, it was in the Silmarillion:




> "And were you so to voyage that escaping all deceits and snares you came indeed to Aman, the Blessed Realm, little would it profit you. For it is not the land of Manwe that makes its people deathless, but the Deathless that dwell therein have hallowed the land; and there you would but wither and grow weary sooner, as months in a light too strong and steadfast."


-The Akallabeth

As noted above, Tol Eressea is a part of Aman.


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## aragil

Contrast with HoME v. X, _Aman and Mortal Men_:


> Let us suppose then that the Valar had also admitted to Aman some of the Atani, and (so that we may consider a whole life of a Man in such a state) that 'mortal' children were there born, as were children of the Eldar. Then, even though in Aman, a mortal child would still grow to maturity in some twenty years of the Sun, and the natural span of its life, the period of the cohesion of hröa and fëa, would be no more than, say, 100 years. Not much more, even though his body would suffer no sickness or disorder in Aman, where no such evils existed. (unless Men brought these evils with them - as why should they not? Even the Eldar brought to the Blessed Realm some taint of the Shadow upon Arda in which they came into being.)
> But in Aman such a creature would be a fleeting thing, the most swift-passing of all beasts. For his whole life would last little more than one half-year, and while all other living creatures would seem to him hardly to change, but to remain steadfast in life and joy with hope of endless years undimmed, he would rise and pass — even as upon Earth the grass may rise in spring and wither ere the winter. Then he would become filled with envy, deeming himself a victim of injustice, being denied the graces given to all other things. He would not value what he had, but feeling that he was among the least and most despised of all creatures, he would grow soon to contemn his manhood, and hate those more richly endowed. He would not escape the fear and sorrow of his swift mortality that is his lot upon Earth, in Arda Marred, but would be burdened by it unbearably to the loss of all delight.


 Not sure that I can reconcile what he's saying here. In one paragraph he says that Men will age normally ~100 years of the sun. In the next sentence he says that the whole life will only span one half-year. Even if you invoke the Valinorean year lasting ~10 years of the sun, these two statements seem to be in apposition. Anybody got an explanation?


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## Eriol

I think that in "For his whole life would last little more than one half-year", the word year actually refers to the Quenya _yen_ (pl. yéni), which lasts for 144 years of the Sun. (Appendices of LotR). It seems Tolkien was thinking in Quenya when he wrote that... Is this a reasonable explanation?


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## Goldberry

But doesn't it seem contradictory that in the one place that Arwen sent Frodo, to find peace and rest, and be healed of all his wounds, would be the place that would burn him up and make him weary faster?


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## Eriol

I think that the "you would wither faster" sentence refers to a whole lifespan of a man, and is mainly psychological. This is possible if the "half-year" statement is really a translation from Quenya, so that the lifespan of men would be "little more than 72 years of the Sun". The Valar would be addressing the fact that if Men came to live in Aman they would be even more dissatisfied with mortality, since they would be surrounded by bliss and not be able to keep it. In a way, this was the problem with 
Númenor, it was so nearly perfect that Men became dissatisfied because of their mortality. This was not observed in the Men of Middle-Earth, and would be even more painful in Aman. So Sirion's quote:



> "And were you so to voyage that escaping all deceits and snares you came indeed to Aman, the Blessed Realm, little would it profit you. For it is not the land of Manwe that makes its people deathless, but the Deathless that dwell therein have hallowed the land; and there you would but wither and grow weary sooner, as moths in a light too strong and steadfast."



said simply that "your wishes are foolish, since even if they were granted you would be even more pained by your mortality", and has no physiological implications. So Frodo would live until the natural end of his life in bliss, and would be healed of his wounds.


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## aragil

> _Originally posted by Eriol _
> *I think that in "For his whole life would last little more than one half-year", the word year actually refers to the Quenya yen (pl. yéni), which lasts for 144 years of the Sun. (Appendices of LotR). It seems Tolkien was thinking in Quenya when he wrote that... Is this a reasonable explanation? *


 Ahh, the Quenya yen. I had thought there was a unit of 144 years, which was why I originally started to post that quote. Problem was, I could only find the reference to the Valinorean year of ~10 Middle-earth years. Thanks for pointing that out Eriol- I agree with you (and my earlier quote): a mortal body living in the blessed realm would not age any quicker than it would in Middle-earth.


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## Eledhwen

Here are some quotes from Tolkien's letters on Mortals in the Undying Lands:

"Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to heal him - if that could be done, before he died. he would have enventually to 'pass away': no mortal could, or can, abide for ever on earth, or within Time. So he went both to a purgatory and to a reward, for a while: a period of reflection and peace and a gaining of a truer understanding of his position in littleness and in greatness, spent still in Time amid the natural beauty of 'Arda Unmarred', the Earth unspoiled by evil." *Letter #246* 

"Bilbo went too. No doubt as a completion of the plan due to Gandalf himself. Gandalf had a very great affection for Bilbo, from the hobbit's childhood onwards. His companionship was really necessary for Frodo's sake- it is difficult to imagine a hobbit, even one who had been through Frodo's experiences, being really happy even in an earthly paradise without a companion of his own kind, and Bilbo was the person that Frodo most loved....But he also needed and deserved the favour on his own account. He bore still the mark of the Ring that needed to be finally erased: a trace of pride and personal possessiveness. 

It is clear, of course, that the plan had actually been made and concerted (by Arwen, Gandalf, and others)... " *Letter #246* 

"But in this story it is supposed that there may be certain rare exceptions or accommodations (legitimately supposed? there always seem to be exceptions); and so certain 'mortals', who have played some great part in Elvish affairs, may pass with the Elves to Elvenhome. Thus Frodo (by the express gift of Arwen) and Bilbo, and eventually Sam (as adumbrated by Frodo); and as a unique exception Gimli the Dwarf, as a friend of Legolas and 'servant' of Galadriel. 

I have said nothing about it in this book, but the mythical idea underlying is that for mortals, since their 'kind' cannot be changed for ever, this is strictly only a temporary reward: a healing and redress of suffering. They cannot abide for ever, and though they cannot return to mortal earth, they can and will 'die' - of free will, and leave the world." *Letter #154*


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## lightingstrike

Did you guys just say that Gandalf is a mortal? I find that hard to believe. Or, I guess I am wrong here. Are all wizards mortal. If they can only die by the hand of another, then they could live a pretty darn long life!


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## Niniel

No, all wizards are Maiar, so they are immortal spirits. Only their human-shaped bodies are mortal.


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## Eledhwen

There is no evidence that Wizards' bodies are any more mortal than those of the Elves. Gandalf had been around longer than all mortal lifespans at the time of The Great Years.


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## Sirion

What of the line comparing them to "moths in a light too strong and steadfast."? I find this to be a clear reference to the Silmaril-like burning away of life Luthien and Beren experienced. Also, how does wither sooner refer to being dissatisfied? I don't think you have explained your point clearly enough.


> _
> Originally posted by Eriol _
> *I think that the "you would wither faster" sentence refers to a whole lifespan of a man, and is mainly psychological. This is possible if the "half-year" statement is really a translation from Quenya, so that the lifespan of men would be "little more than 72 years of the Sun". The Valar would be addressing the fact that if Men came to live in Aman they would be even more dissatisfied with mortality, since they would be surrounded by bliss and not be able to keep it. In a way, this was the problem with
> Númenor, it was so nearly perfect that Men became dissatisfied because of their mortality. This was not observed in the Men of Middle-Earth, and would be even more painful in Aman. So Sirion's quote:
> 
> 
> 
> said simply that "your wishes are foolish, since even if they were granted you would be even more pained by your mortality", and has no physiological implications. So Frodo would live until the natural end of his life in bliss, and would be healed of his wounds. *


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## Eriol

Sirion just asked:



> Also, how does wither sooner refer to being dissatisfied? I don't think you have explained your point clearly enough.



Just for reference, I will repeat the quote under scrutiny:



> "And were you so to voyage that escaping all deceits and snares you came indeed to Aman, the Blessed Realm, little would it profit you. For it is not the land of Manwe that makes its people deathless, but the Deathless that dwell therein have hallowed the land; and there you would but wither and grow weary sooner, as moths in a light too strong and steadfast."



Remember this was said by the Valar's emissaries (I think, did not check that) to the Númenóreans when they were first murmuring agains the Ban of the Valar (that said that they could not sail so far west that they lose sight of their own island). My point of view is that this is a warning from the emissaries that could be substituted by something like "Do not try to fight your own nature, and become deathless. For there is not any power in the world save that of Eru Himself that can do anything about it, and the Valar certainly can't help. And if you think that simply living at the same land with the Valar would do you any good, then you are quite mistaken. For *in the company of the deathless your mortality would be even more bitter, and you would be dismayed and rebel against Death with even more anger* "

The bold portion is roughly the same in meaning to the sentence "you would but wither and grow weary sooner, as moths in a light too strong and stadefast", as I take it. It is not a literal reading, but it is supported by (a) Aragil's HoME quote that Men would live "little more than a half-year" (assuming "year" is a translation from the Quenya yen, which accounts for 144 years of the Sun, so this quote would really mean "little more than 70 years of the Sun", i.e., normal (without the Valar's blessing) human lifespans. And (b) the fact that Frodo is sent there to heal his wounds. Now is we assume that the "withering" is a literal event, and that Frodo would only "grow weary sooner", his boon (of going to Valinor) makes no sense, as was pointed out earlier.

This is my interpretation of that quote. I'd be glad to discuss it further if you wish, Sirion.


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## Sirion

It had always been my impression that Frodo would go to Tol Eressea so he would be healed of his wounds and live a healthier and happier, if shorter, life. This is compared to a long life of reoccuring illness and suffering he would have had he stayed on ME.


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## Turin

*Does Frodo live forever?*

I have a question, when Frodo sails to valinor does he live there forever and what about Sam and Bilbo?


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## Celebthôl

no they all die, they just live in luxury for their last years


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## Aragorn21

> no they all die, they just live in luxury for their last years


 I learn new things everyday here!! I had no idea I thought they would live forever. Andyway does anyone know what the grey havens looked like?


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## Niniel

Check out this thread: www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=8945


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## 33Peregrin

No, they don't live forever. I wish they did. They're mortals, and remember in the scouring of the Shire Saruman warned Frodo that he would not have a long life????????


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## Ithrynluin

Hey if they don't live forever, why does it say "Frodo lives" in the subway?


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## Lantarion

LMAO!


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## Aragorn21

LOL  

And thanks alot for that thread link it really helps!


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## Aulë

In fact, some people say that Frodo would have had a shorter life in the Undying Lands than he would have in Middle Earth, although in a lot less pain.
It is said that by living in the Undying Lands, a mortals life force would be "burnt" away quicker.


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## Beleg

Frodo will live till the world is re-made. that's what i think.


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## Turin

Yeah I wish they didn't have to die. I thought that since he was a ring bearer he would live forevor in valinor.


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## elfgirl

I happen to agree. I mean, look at how long Bilbo lived. I mean, in the begining of the series, it was his eleventy-first birthday!!!


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## Flame of Udûn

That is because he had the Ring for upwards of fifty years, and it was sustaining his life. That is why Gollum lived for so long.


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## Beowulf

I think the professor was very clear in his letters that Frodo would not live forever

"Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to heal him - if that could be done, before he died. He would have eventually to 'pass away': no mortal could, or can, abide for ever on earth, or within Time." Letter #246 

"I have said nothing about it in this book, but the mythical idea underlying is that for mortals, since their 'kind' cannot be changed for ever, this is strictly only a temporary reward: a healing and redress of suffering. They cannot abide for ever, and though they cannot return to mortal earth, they can and will 'die' - of free will, and leave the world." Letter #154


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## balrog

was it not said that Frodo had an elvish quality to him?

not that that would make him immortal!


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## Turin

Sam was already pretty old when he passed across the sea so he didn't have much time to enjoy paradice.


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## Aulë

Even more so for Bilbo.

I doubt that he would have lasted out the year.


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## Ithrynluin

Bilbo did bear the ring for an awfully long time, so I doubt he would die that soon. IMO he had another decade of life before him - at least.


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## Mimzy

I think they probably have an extended life, like the Numenoreans did (maybe physically being further West/closer to the Valar makes a mortal live longer?) but they definitely didn't become Elves.


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## Zenith

Niniel said:


> Yes, they are still mortal. They can be healed of all their hurts and weariness (this goes for Frodo especially) and enjoy the Undying Lands, but they still die when it's their time. So I have been wondering if Frodo was still alive when Sam came... maybe they met again, but maybe Frodo had already died. That would be kinda sad


 
Actually I think that they become immortal. Let us look at the facts. The Valar were afraid the Numenoreans would overthrow Valinor and break the Ban, thus becoming immortal. They had to call upon Eru. However, there is even more concrete evidence. Tuor, the man, built for himself a ship and sailed into the west. And in the Silmarillion it says he came to the shores of Valinor, and alone of mortal men, was numbered among the Eldar. So if Tuor became immortal, how can you say the Ringbearers and Gimli don't become immortal?


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## Elthir

There are possible exceptions, but Frodo was not one of them. As already noted in the thread, for instance...



> And much later, in a draft letter of 1963 (Letters no. 246), he [Tolkien] wrote:
> 
> 'Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to heal him -- if that could be done, before he died. He would have eventually to 'pass away': no mortal could, or can, abide for ever on earth, or within Time. So he went both to a purgatory and to a reward, for a while: a period of reflection and peace and a gaining of a truer understanding of his position in littleness and in greatness, spent still in Time amid the natural beauty of 'Arda Unmarred', the Earth unspoiled by evil.'


 
The Valar did not fear the Numenoreans becoming immortal. Aman was the land of 'immortals' but the land did not confer immortality upon mortals; not even the limited immortality of the Elves.


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## HLGStrider

The Numenoreans were simply under the delusion that it would make them immortal, mainly, I believe, because Sauron told them it would when he had the king's ear. It's like how the snake in the Bible told Eve that eating of the fruit would make her "like God" when really it did nothing of the sort.


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## Zenith

Okay HLGStrider, I don't know what Bible you have been reading, but Adam and Eve did become like God, knowing good and evil. It even says in Genesis Chapter 3 Verse 22: "and the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil."


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## HLGStrider

You are correct. I guess it has just been awhile since I've read Genesis. What I meant by it, though, was that I'm pretty sure Eve did not think being "like God" would be like that. She didn't become immortal or omnipotent or even all knowing. She just learned the knowledge of good and evil. It would be like someone saying he could sell you a pill that will make you like your favorite athlete and have the pill be a plastic canister that contains a matching jersey. Only one very small aspect of "like." In that way it was a deception.


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## Bard the Bowman

What about Tuor? Did he become one of the Eldar or was that just speculation?


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## Withywindle

The point about Tuor is an excellent one and contradicts everything Tolkien later said about mortals' not being able to perdure in the temporal sphere.


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## Peeping-Tom

In my opinion, everything told (...or written) about mortals in the Undying Lands is pure speculating in making happy-ends to harsh stories. No mortals have ever talked to other mortals that have visited the Undying Lands... not even Beren, who never spoke to another human after he returned to Middle-Earth. We simply have no real proofs of, what happened to all the mortals leaving to the west (Tour, Bilbo, Frodo, Sam and Gimli). The only one who could have supplied facts, the Gondolin/Imladris elf, Glorfindel, never spoke of his time in the Undying Lands.


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## Elthir

Tolkien speaking to exceptions doesn't topple the rule for me -- I think there is plenty of evidence (even if story-external) that mortals do not normally become 'immortal' in the West, a major point of the Numenorean story I would say.


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## Bard the Bowman

> Tolkien speaking to exceptions doesn't topple the rule for me -- I think there is plenty of evidence (even if story-external) that mortals do not normally become 'immortal' in the West, a major point of the Numenorean story I would say.




How do you explain Tuor then if there are no exceptions?


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## HLGStrider

He didn't say there were no exceptions. He said that the exceptions didn't change the general rule that mortals do not "normally" become immortal . . . which in itself implies that they do sometimes, it just isn't "normal."


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## Bard the Bowman

Well the fact that we call them "exceptions" means we concede to the idea that it is a "rule", so I'm not sure what the point is of that statement.


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## HLGStrider

His point was 
A. There is plenty of evidence that mortals don't become immortal just because they reach the East
B. One noted exception does not totally topple the rule and mean that everyone who reaches the East becomes immortal.

For instance, if we were discussing people going over the Niagara Falls in barrels and someone said as a rule it is fatal to do so, the fact that one or two people have done it and live does not overrule the general rule that going over Niagara Falls in a barrel will kill you.


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## Mimzy

Withywindle said:


> The point about Tuor is an excellent one and contradicts everything Tolkien later said about mortals' not being able to perdure in the temporal sphere.



I don't think him going to Valinor is what gave him the Gift of the Elves ... I think Iluvatar Himself imbued the gift to him ... even if Tuor and Idril wanted to live in Middle-earth instead they would still be immortal (though they would 'fade').


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## Elthir

*Mimzy* in my opinion that's nicely in accord with Tolkien about Tuor and Eru:



> 'Tuor weds Idril the daughter of Turgon king of Gondolin; and 'it is supposed' (not stated) that he as an unique exception receives the Elvish limited 'immortality' (...) Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the Eruhini (in whose conception and creation the Valar had no part at all) it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be affected by the Valar even in one case: the cases of Luthien (and Tuor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God.'



JRRT, letter 153 (draft)


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## Withywindle

But talking of special cases, surely mortlas who have worn a ring of power are special cases. LOTR states that this gave them the right to go to the West, but isn't it more than that?

Putting on a ring of power alows a mortal to do something Eru never intended - enter the world of spirits. Elves it seems inhabit temporal and spiritual realities simultaneously as indeed the physical world is also their spiritual home, whereas mortals are supposed to be just physical entities until they die, and they become spirits outside of the world, in the halls of Eru.

But when amortal puts on a ring of power he becomes part of the spiritual world and just as he can perceive that world, other beings also perceive his spirit. This fact breaks Eru's laws. Now we might muse that those few mortals who put on a ring of power and survived - Bilbo, Frodo and Sam may _de facto_ have lost the so called Gift of Iluvatar and have become elven like without the need for any authority to pass judgement.


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## Elthir

> 'As for _Frodo_ or other mortals, they could only dwell in _Aman_ for a limited time -- whether brief or long. The _Valar_ had neither the power nor the right to confer 'immortality' upon them. Their sojourn was a 'purgatory', but one of peace and healing and they would eventually pass away (_die_ at their own desire and of free will) to destinations of which the Elves knew nothing.'
> 
> JRRT 1971 _Letters
> 
> _


Tolkien would be well aware, of course, that Frodo wore the one.


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