# Bravest Hobbit?



## tom_bombadil (May 16, 2013)

I'm rather afraid that I've forgotten how to make a Poll, so if some helpful soul could add that for me I'd much appreciate it.

Anyway, I was thinking about this and considering which Hobbit I considered the bravest. Obviously it has to be from Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin. I personally am not so fond of Frodo and Pippin and although I beliebe they were brave I believe that the others have more of an edge. 

In the end it would come down to a straight choice, for me, between Bilbo and Sam, which I believe Bilbo would ultimatley edge. This for me is because Bilbo was much more out of his comfort zone then the others, they all had his example to follow, he on the other hand was thrown in at the deep end and was pretty much left to sink or swim of his own accord.

Anyway what do others think?


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## Eledhwen (May 17, 2013)

I think this post is in slightly the wrong thread; as the only really brave Hobbit in "The Hobbit" was Bilbo himself. 

Having said that, the moment when Bilbo confronted his own fears in the dark tunnel inside Erebor on his way to encounter the dragon, has to rank high; as it was pure bravery - not reacting to anything - where his main enemy was his own mind.


> from *The Hobbit*: "It was at this point that Bilbo stopped. Going on from there was the bravest thing he ever did. The tremendous things that happened afterward were as nothing compared to it. He fought the real battle in the tunnel alone, before he ever saw the vast danger that lay in wait."


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## Bucky (May 17, 2013)

without reading the first post and just the title...

(and all such things are of course strictly opinions)

My initial thought was & remains:

SAM.

Why?

Mount Doom.

He gives everything up to Frodo.

carries him up the hill...

No thought of his own glory.

Even unto death.

Gee, who's that sound like? ;*)

Bilbo on the other hand?

He does it for...

Himself.

To get out of a hole in the mountain when he's lost.


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## HLGStrider (May 28, 2013)

I don't know why this is up for debate when Spock already told us that the answer is Bilbo and since he is Vulcan, I am sure his logic is irrefutable. 

[video=youtube;ZQ_duzQzS1I]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQ_duzQzS1I[/video]


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## Starbrow (May 28, 2013)

NOOOOOO! Not this video again! It will give me nightmares.:*eek:


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## Eledhwen (May 29, 2013)

HLGStrider said:


> I don't know why this is up for debate when Spock already told us that the answer is Bilbo and since he is Vulcan, I am sure his logic is irrefutable.
> 
> [video=youtube;ZQ_duzQzS1I]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQ_duzQzS1I[/video]


Ha ha ha! I've never seen this before. And it supports my argument!


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## Firawyn (Aug 30, 2013)

That vid is downright scary...for the record. :*eek:

My personal opinion is that Pippin is the Bravest. Of all the hobbits, he grew the most throughout the story. Everything was a game before he joined the Fellowship, and his reason for continuing on the quest was because it was for the greater good, which I find incredibly brave because working for the greater good means that you have set aside any personal interests. 

Merry kept going for the same reason, but he already had a 'brave' streak before the journey started. Sam's goal was to protect Frodo, which meant that he had his friend to gain should he keep going. Frodo, I think, was initially trying to live up to Bilbo's reputation, as 'The Baggins', and later is was more about a savior complex involving Smeagol. Bilbo for his part comes into a close second for me, being that his motivations were to help the Dwarves, but as Bucky pointed out, it was also a 'save his skin' issue, and thus Pippin gets my vote. :*)


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## Sulimo (Oct 9, 2013)

I've got to give it to Frodo. He knew from the beginning the significance of his burden, and he would have gone all alone if he had his way. Even though his soul would be warped every step of the way. Merry, Pippin, and Sam did not fully realize what they were getting into. Frodo knew the full weight of the burden and consistently tried to put his friends safety over his own, in his quest to destroy the ring. This in no way does away with the exceptional valor displayed by the others, but I think Frodo is often done an injustice. He is the one to really pay attention to in the LotR because he has the most subtle character development of them all, and is the true hero.


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## jallan (Oct 10, 2013)

Bravery?

See Plato’s essay _Laches_ which can be found on the web for a discussion of what _bravery_ or _courage_ is. This dialogue dissolves in confusion because _courage_ is a more complex subject than it might seem at first and what one means by _bravest_ depends on what one means by _brave_? There are different definitions. One of them is that _bravery_ can be defined as overcoming fear. So then someone who naturally has no fears, by definition, cannot be brave.

Perhaps Gollum is the bravest Hobbit in both _The Hobbit_ and _The Lord of the Rings_. Or perhaps not.


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## Eledhwen (Oct 12, 2013)

jallan said:


> Bravery?
> 
> See Plato’s essay _Laches_ which can be found on the web for a discussion of what _bravery_ or _courage_ is. This dialogue dissolves in confusion because _courage_ is a more complex subject than it might seem at first and what one means by _bravest_ depends on what one means by _brave_? There are different definitions. One of them is that _bravery_ can be defined as overcoming fear. So then someone who naturally has no fears, by definition, cannot be brave.
> 
> Perhaps Gollum is the bravest Hobbit in both _The Hobbit_ and _The Lord of the Rings_. Or perhaps not.



With an answer like that, Jallan, you are clearly an elf.

The origins of both words is debatable, so what chance a firm definition? If I were writing these words, I would use bravery as a character trait that is contrary to the instinct for self-preservation; something you either have or lack. To this would be added courage; the mustering of the will to do the deed. The less brave you are, the more courage you need before you can act.


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## host of eldar (Oct 12, 2013)

I have to choose "Samwise the Brave" as he deserves that title well. He would jump in the mouth of a dragon to save Frodo as (I reckon)Pippin said in the book. His courage is based on his loyalty to Frodo and it is a blind courage. Somewhat reckless even.. For others, Frodo has not much that quality. He is more a leader than a warrior I think. Pippin gained his courage lately. He is like Bilbo's early times in his adventure, sometimes regretting to leave Shire. Merry is a brave one I think but not as much as Sam. Bilbo is closest to Sam, but he had the ring which made him invisible when needed. He had 13 dwarves with him most of the time when Sam had Gollum. I vote for Samwise..


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## jallan (Oct 12, 2013)

Eledhwen said:


> If I were writing these words, I would use bravery as a character trait that is contrary to the instinct for self-preservation; something you either have or lack. To this would be added courage; the mustering of the will to do the deed. The less brave you are, the more courage you need before you can act.



So then Japanese kamkazi pilots will be your ideal, or the terrorists who destroyed the Twin Towers in New York. Yet those who destroyed the Twin Towers were openly called “cowards” by some.

Frodo gave in in the end, not having the will to do the deed. But others, including Gandalf and Galadriel would not take on the task themself. Boromir attempted to take the Ring, but then died bravely in a hopeless struggle against the Orcs.

As Socrates points out in the dialogue _Laches_, defining courage is complicated.


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## Eledhwen (Oct 13, 2013)

jallan said:


> So then Japanese kamkazi pilots will be your ideal, or the terrorists who destroyed the Twin Towers in New York. Yet those who destroyed the Twin Towers were openly called “cowards” by some.
> 
> Frodo gave in in the end, not having the will to do the deed. But others, including Gandalf and Galadriel would not take on the task themself. Boromir attempted to take the Ring, but then died bravely in a hopeless struggle against the Orcs.
> 
> As Socrates points out in the dialogue _Laches_, defining courage is complicated.


Kamikazi pilots were brainwashed and drugged. Who knows the mental state of the 9/11 hijackers? They were not reckless, though (knowing exactly what they were doing) and I would not call them brave because their intent was evil, and bravery is connotated with good. Frodo was both brave and courageous, forsaking all that he loved in order to preserve it. That he reached his limits before the end does not negate his courage. He did all he could; providence did the rest. But all this goes to show is that you're right. Courage and Bravery are poetic words; they need a story around them to give them the right shade and colour. Dictionaries can't do that.


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## jallan (Oct 14, 2013)

In Plato’s _Leches_ Nicias argues somewhat as you have. Socrates then points out that Nicias’ definition actually amounts to a definition of all virtue (since it implies knowledge of all good and evil) and therefore, since courage is in fact only a part of virtue, a contradiction arises and the definition must be false

There seems to me something wrong with the statement that <any practice> is evil, and therefore people who practice <that practise> cannot be brave. 

In letter 45 Tolkien wrote (emphasis mine):
People in this land seem not even yet to realize that in the Germans we have enemies whose virtues (and they are virtues) of obedience and patriotism are greater than ours in the mass. Whose _brave men are just about as brave as ours_.​
By the way I disagree with Tolkien that _obedience_ is necessarily a virtue. The same goes for _patriotism_.


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## SKYLAH OAKENSHIELD (Mar 17, 2015)

I reckon Samwise Gamgee. He never has any qualms about following Frodo to the end if Middle-Earth, and at numerous points risks death to do what is right. I personally would never be able to do the things he does. Yet he never backs out.


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## SKYLAH OAKENSHIELD (Mar 17, 2015)

T


jallan said:


> Bravery?
> 
> 
> Perhaps Gollum is the bravest Hobbit in both _The Hobbit_ and _The Lord of the Rings_. Or perhaps not.


Technically Gollum is no longer a Hobbit. I know he began as one, however the ring corrupted and changed him. Like how Orcs were originally Elves. You cannot liken the fairest of races to such creatures.


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## basti255 (Aug 23, 2015)

Frodo definitely. His burden was the, for the lack of a better word, toughest. I like Sam and he is also very brave, but Frodo had it tougher.


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