# Sam's rope



## Confusticated (Sep 29, 2002)

In The Two Towers, the Taming of Smeagol Sam and Frodo use the rope from Lothlorien to get down the cliff. Well they had no way to keep the rope but Sam gave it a little tug as a goodbye and down it came. Anyhow, what you do think caused this? Was the knot just tied in such a way that it slowly came loose? Was it "magic" of the rope? Maybe Gollum did it?




Anyone?


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## Anamatar IV (Sep 29, 2002)

i thought it was magic at the time. Like the rope of galadriel supported sam and frodo and fell when they needed it. but if im thinking of it comicaly...i say a squirrel mistook it for an acorn and tried to pick it up. But thats just a joke.


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## Confusticated (Sep 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Anamatar IV _
> *i thought it was magic at the time. Like the rope of galadriel supported sam and frodo and fell when they needed it. but if im thinking of it comicaly...i say a squirrel mistook it for an acorn and tried to pick it up. But thats just a joke. *



It could have been both of those. Couldn't it?
You say you thought it was the magic of the rope, but how did the rope actually get severed or untied? Did it wiggle on it's own to free it's self up?


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## gate7ole (Sep 29, 2002)

Confusticated, I think it's quite straight-forward. The rope had a sort of magic in it and could be untied by itself. Now how it would be done, I suppose it would loose a little and then by a simple force be released.


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## Confusticated (Sep 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by gate7ole _
> *Confusticated, I think it's quite straight-forward. The rope had a sort of magic in it and could be untied by itself. Now how it would be done, I suppose it would loose a little and then by a simple force be released. *



So the rope had the ability to make it's self move? No other thing helped it?


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## Grond (Sep 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Confusticated _
> *So the rope had the ability to make it's self move? No other thing helped it? *


 Kinda like William's purse in The Hobbit, only the rope couldn't talk.


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## Mithlond (Sep 30, 2002)

I always assumed Gollum loosened the rope in hopes that the hobbits would still be climbing down it and kill them, so he could then climb down and take back the ring.
Gollum did begin to climb down the cliff virtually straight after the rope fell..


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## Confusticated (Sep 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Mithlond _
> *I always assumed Gollum loosened the rope in hopes that the hobbits would still be climbing down it and kill them, so he could then climb down and take back the ring.
> Gollum did begin to climb down the cliff virtually straight after the rope fell.. *


I have considered Gollum, but pretty much ruled him out. This is why: 


> _ From The Taming of Smeagol_
> Sam got out the rope. 'And where were you off to in the cold hard lands, Mr. Gollum?' he growled. 'We wonders. aye, we wonders. To find some of your orc-friends, I warrant. You nasty treacherous creature. It's round your neck this rope ought to go, and a tight noose too.'
> Gollum lay quiet and tried no further tricks. He did not answer Sam,
> but gave him a swift venomous look.
> ...


I think we all agree that the rope truely is painful to Gollum? Now if Gollum had untied or even chewed through the rope earlier on, he would probably have had a reaction to it as soon as Sam pulled it out since he would have known that it is painful to touch. Gollum did not seem to have known this until the rope touched him though. I just can't see Gollum laying quitely while they appraoch this something that would pain him. Plus, he wouldn't have alot to gain by trying to play it off anyhow. I'm sure he owuld have let out screams and tried to get away when he saw the rope if he knew it would hurt.




Anyone, anything?


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## Mithlond (Sep 30, 2002)

Yeah i realise it would hurt Gollum to physically touch the rope, but what if he used a rock or branch to dislodge it??

Though you're most likely right, it probably wasn't Gollum, i just find it hard to believe Sam tugging on the rope would dislodge it just like that, after they had safely climbed down it seconds before..even if it was _magical_.


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## Confusticated (Sep 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Mithlond _
> *Yeah i realise it would hurt Gollum to physically touch the rope, but what if he used a rock or branch to dislodge it??
> 
> Though you're most likely right, it probably wasn't Gollum, i just find it hard to believe Sam tugging on the rope would dislodge it just like that, after they had safely climbed down it seconds before..even if it was magical. *



Gollum may have used something to dislodge it, but why would he first use a tool to do this rather than try first with his hands?

Gollum just doesn't stike me as one who would use an object, he seems more like a "do things manually" sort of guy.

Notice that whenever Gollum attacks someone, he bites or uses his hands...he never grabs for weapons, he doesn't even carry a knife.


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## Lantarion (Sep 30, 2002)

Yup, that's Gollum: Mr. DIY! 
I think it wasn't Gollum's doing. He may have approached the rope, and maybe grabbed hold of it, but after realizing that it was Elvish and burned his hands he would have backed away quickly and fear and loathe the rope. But if this was the case then Sam and Frodo would have heard Golum yelling in pain: just look at his reaction to the rope when he is tied to it! 
I think it was magical, as you say. It is tight when it is needed to be tight, and it comes loose when it is needed to become loose. I have no proper explanation for you cynical science-folk out there , but perhaps in Middle-Earth the Elves had found a new way to synthesize the nylon and other materials in the rope with something else, thus giving it the ability to clench tighter when pulled on hard, and coming loose when pulled only lightly.. The whole scenario backs this theory up: Sam and Frodo, both weighing around 60 - 70 kg (don't know what it is in lb, and don't care! ), were both supported solely by the rope: I'd say this was quite a powerful opposing force. But when Sam tugged at it at the bottom, he probably just pulled it like you would pull one of those hanging doorbells, and it came slithering down. As I recall Frodo thought it was due to Sam's faulty knot! Well each to his own, I guess.


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## Confusticated (Sep 30, 2002)

What Lantarion says about the rope being crafted in such a way that a knot would tighten if a rope had more weight on it, and loosen when it has a little weight is what I think is most likely.
Not magic but craft. I am not sure of that though.
I want to hear more about how it might have worked if it were magic though. From people like gate7ole.....
In specific, did the magic of the rope work alone, or did it's magic cause something to act upon it.
If it did cause something to act upon it, how? 


Anyone, anything else?


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 30, 2002)

I think the rope was simply a magical tool intended to be used by all "good" peoples.Gollum couldn't bear to touch it because the rope hurt him - he was corrupt and evil to some extent. I think that the rope just felt when it had to be tied or untied (but let's not get into a "Is the rope sentient" discussion! ) it contained the good will and power of the Lothlorien elves.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Oct 1, 2002)

ithrynluin, that debate was the first thing that crossed my mind when you mentioned the word, "tool". 

Here are some of my thoughts: I believe that the untying of the rope was "magical" in a human sense, but quite "un-magical" in an elvish sense. The things made by the elves were quite different from anything made by any other race. Part of what made them different was that the elves were able to incorporate into their works a part of the very essence of their goodness. This to them was normal. The rope is just like the Phial of Galadriel or lembas. What was it in a mere light (well, it was the light of Erindion, but then how did Galadriel put some of the light of Erindion into a phial?) that broke the will of the Watchers? And what was incorporated into a small piece of bread to make it taste so wonderful and be so satisfying? And the color shifting cloaks - what made them change color to blend in with their surroundings? I can only think that it would be magic to humans, but quite logical and understandable to elves.

Will be back with more, but the clock is ticking and I must be off!


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## Grond (Oct 1, 2002)

I think Nenya has *nailed* the answer to this question. And I ought to know... I'm a *hammer*.


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## Confusticated (Oct 1, 2002)

So Nenya, do you mean that you too think that it was actually just exellent craftsmanship. So much so that it seems like magic? Grond, you think this too?


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## Grond (Oct 1, 2002)

No. It was made by Elves; therefore it is imbued with special properties that cannot be explained. Just as Galadriel's Mirror is special as is the Phial of Galadriel and Lembas, the Elvish rope is also woven with Elven spells (if you will).


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## Confusticated (Oct 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Grond _
> *No. It was made by Elves; therefore it is imbued with special properties that cannot be explained. Just as Galadriel's Mirror is special as is the Phial of Galadriel and Lembas, the Elvish rope is also woven with Elven spells (if you will). *



then the question is: do you think this magic caused the rope to loosen on it's own, or do you think it worked some other way, maybe by causing Sam to tie it wrong.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Oct 1, 2002)

Yes, what Grond is saying is exactly what I believe. That was one of the special properties of elves - they were able to incorporate into their work the "magic", if you will, of their own people. They do not put this purposfully into their craft, but it goes in anyway because of the spirit behind the people who made it. Think of all the attributes the elves had - their wisdom, beauty, health, you know, all of these things, and I believe that these things went into their craft not purposfully, but just because they _ were _. This was an attribute that the elves possessed, and everything that they made contained, in a way, the spirit that the elves possessed. The elves are unaware of the oddity of their own works because it is natural to them and does not seem like magic of any sort, but to those who do not possess the special gifts that elves possess it seems wonderful and magical.


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## Confusticated (Oct 1, 2002)

yes I am hearing all of that and I think most of us agree that there was "magic" in this rope. But how exactly do you think it came loose? Did this elf "magic" cause something else to loosen the rope or did the rope it's self come loose? If someone were looking at the rope when this happend would they have saw anything? If so, what kind of thing?


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## Nenya Evenstar (Oct 2, 2002)

Well, I would think that the rope loosened itself. It all goes back to the whole elf thing. The rope contained in it the will of the elves (that's the best way I can describe it right now - need sleep), and that "magic" in it caused it to be elf-like. It was firm and did not break, even though Sam worried that it might, and then it untied itself when the wish was made for it to do so. I would think that if someone had been watching up at the top they would have simply seen the knot untie itself gracefully.


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## Grond (Oct 2, 2002)

I think that any rope made by the Elves of Lorien would come if called. It's really that simple. I don't profess to know the hows and whys... I just feel I know the is... and that is that the rope can when tugged on with a feeling of need. 

Why did the Phial of Galadriel flare up when the name Elbereth was spoken? Why did Lembas provide adequate sustenance to keep a man alive for a whole day when only eating one? Why did the Elven-boats given the Fellowship stay upright when heavily loaded and when Boromir's was carried over the falls? It's Elven magic, pure and simple.


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## Confusticated (Oct 2, 2002)

But the rope is different, even though it may have worked for the same reason as those other things. If the rope just untied it's self that would be a sight to see. We know what the Phial looked like and can imagine what the boat looked like, but no telling what this rope looked like in action. I am not sure that one could have observed it untie it's self, but I wonder what other people think. If the rope intied without the aid of anything else I think it would have looked like the rope just slipped out of the knot, as if it where slimey or something. I am still not sure of this though. When I ask how people think it worked I do not expect them to explain the magic, but to actions taken by the rope. The actions of the boat: it stayed afloat. But the rope? It does not say. It just came unconnected somehow.


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## Maeglin (Oct 2, 2002)

wow all you people have confused me. I never really gave it a thought before and I always just assumed that gollum had untied the rope in an attempt to kill frodo and sam, but he just untied it too late. But now that I think about it gollum couldn't have done it because it hurt him just to touch the rope, so maybe it was magic but for some reason, I don't know why, that just seems a little far-fetched to me.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Oct 2, 2002)

Glad we could give you something to think about.  Just remember that what seemed like magic to humans was not magic to the elves.

As for the rope untying, I think that Confusticated's idea of the knot just slipping out makes the most sense out of all the ideas offered so far. The knot at one point just _ was _ tight and at the next moment it _ wasn't _. Confusing elves are, are they not? (A little Yoda for you there.)

BTW, great new avatar Confusticated! Looks like you got out your drawing pencils again and, yet again, came up with something great!


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