# Was there further strife planned for Middle Earth?



## Beytran70 (Nov 8, 2020)

I've always wondered whether Lord of the Rings was what Tolkien intended to be the "end" of his stories in Middle Earth. Throughout his works (and even briefly hinted at in the film versions) there are references to some sort of darkness or something not right in Middle Earth itself. Could this be part of the reason he specified where each of the Fellowship went after and why they all ended up in Valinor?

The men of the east also remained an enemy of the West as written, although as it stands they were never a meaningful threat again. With at least one Balrog still alive and such evils as The Watcher in the Water and other Nameless Things, what other evils might have remained to trouble Middle Earth in the future, and do you think Tolkien had ideas for such things in later writing or that he never got around to?

If you were to write such a story, what would the conflict be? As one interested in eldritch horror, I am fascinated by the Nameless Things and their likely origins as creatures spawned from the discordant song of Morgoth but not his children. This makes them an independent evil not associated with that line, and therefore something quite different that could threaten the balance of creation in a way skin to how a Sauron victory would tip the scales.


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## Olorgando (Nov 8, 2020)

When he had finally gotten LoTR into print, I would guess that JRRT meant it to be the end of his stories of Middle-earth. What he mainly tried to do, unsuccessfully in his lifetime, was to get the prequel "The Silmarillion" into publishable from. But he did have a very short and abortive go at a Fourth Age sequel, apparently intermittently from the 1950's to the late 1960's, which he called "The New Shadow". What exists of this writing (very little, but as often with JRRT, two manuscript and two typescript versions without moving the story very far) is to be found in volume 12 of the "History of Middle-earth", "The Peoples of Middle-earth". As it is supposed to take place about 100 years after the death of Aragorn, placing it in 220 Fourth Age (or 1641 Shire Reckoning), all of the main characters of LoTR had by then died (if mortal) or left Middle-earth (if Elven). So there would be no connection as there had been between TH and LoTR, and JRRT basically abandoned it as it would have been a run-of-the-mill novel that he didn't really want to write.


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## Chaostyr (Nov 8, 2020)

I personally like the fact that Tolkien abandoned the Fourth Age sequel he was working on. It makes the downfall of Sauron much sweeter, especially when you read about his history in the Silmarillion. I prefer to think of the Fourth Age as a very long, peaceful, and prosperous age for all inhabitants of Middle- Earth.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Nov 9, 2020)

A very important thing that make all Evil stuff a piece of cake-lack of strategic mastermind. As Sauron is game over, all the evil stuff remain are no more than guerrilla due to having no more mastermind to unify them. At most maybe some Easterlings states have that level, proved by their destructive threat to Gondor, however, the War of the Ring has truly exhausted their total strength. In addition, Aragorn also has used political offense against Easterlings, paralyzing and scattering their military power.

In general, strategic military power's readon make all the remains of the Evil side able to do is no more than delaying the Free People's unification of the whole ME.


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## Alcuin (Nov 9, 2020)

Tolkien’s stories take place in the northwest of Middle-earth. There is a vast region to the south and east, by far the majority of the landmass. It’s as if we’re looking at only western and central Europe, not Africa, not Eastern Europe (i.e., stopping along the Black Sea while ignoring the vast region to the Urals), not the Levant, not the largest landmass, Asia, and certainly not the Americas. 

Númenórean territory in the late Second Age was mostly south of Umbar, the region the folk of Gondor called Far Harad. Umbar was the central point of pre-cataclysmic Númenórean power, reaching into the hinterlands away from the coasts, and (apparently) around some southern points and beyond. Many of the Númenórean coastlands were flooded and their inhabitants killed or injured by the tsunami that accompanied the Downfall of Númenor, and most of the military power that Númenor possessed, with the exception of Gondor and Arnor, which were populated by Faithful Númenóreans who did not participate in Ar-Pharazôn’s mad rebellion, was also lost then. 

But Umbar and Pelargir, which were more geographically protected than the rest of the coastland, managed to survive. Pelargir became the main naval base in the Third Age until the followers of Castamir the Usurper absconded to Umbar with Gondor’s fleet and much of its merchant marine. From that point on, it seems Umbar was the primary naval power, or at least a close rival to Gondor, which by the end of the Third Age could not adequately defend its coastlands from raids or invasion. 

By the end of the Third Age, Gondor could no longer project power into the region between Anduin and the Sea of Rhûn, and from the middle of the age until its end, Gondor, and later Rohan, was constantly under threat from eastern tribes that crossed the plains and the river to assault the lands west of Anduin. The culmination of this was the War of the Ring in which a vanguard from Minas Morgul was joined by armies from Harad (Umbar), a fleet from Umbar that constituted a second marine army, and an army of Easterlings, in addition to an army of Orcs and other Men that attacked the Wold of northern Rohan but were defeated by the Ents. After Gondor’s victory at Minas Tirith, the Easterlings remained unfought: this was joined by other armies from the East, by Southrons (from Harad), and by innumerable Orcs, so that we are led to suspect that Sauron might have had as many as 60,000 soldiers at his immediate disposal at the Black Gate when then the Ring was destroyed. (This estimate based upon a figure ten times that of the Captains of the West, ignoring perhaps 1000–2000 troops deployed along the way, at the Crossroads in Ithilien and at Cair Andros, so that “ten times” figure might be as much as one-third lower.) 

The reign of Aragorn Elessar saw a change in this situation. Aragorn wisely and beneficently made peace with his hostile neighbors, and gave southern Mordor around Lake Núrnen to Sauron’s former slaves, a gift of land and freedom that probably earned him the loyalty of those folk. But the Appendix A makes clear that, “wherever King Elessar went with war King Éomer went with him; and beyond the Sea of Rhûn and on the far fields of the South the thunder of the cavalry of the Mark was heard, and the White Horse upon Green flew in many winds until Éomer grew old.” So we know that Aragorn and Éomer together waged a series of conflicts both into Rhûn and beyond Umbar to cement the power and suzerainty of Gondor. There was, as Hisoka Morrow notes, no longer any central power directing resistance to Gondor’s reassertion of its authority as of old. Moreover, the fear and rumor of the might of the West that followed its victories at Minas Tirith and at the Black Gate, where Sauron’s power was broken forever, probably gave the West a tremendous advantage over opponents for whom Gondor had previously been only travelers’ tales, much as the young men in the Host of the West during their march north to the Black Gate feared Mordor, which had before been only an old tale, were unnerved by the realization of only its partial horror. 

Add to this that Aragorn seized the better part of Umbar’s naval force in the battle at Pelargir. Just as Gondor’s naval power had been transferred to Umbar with the defection of Castamir’s adherents at the end of the Kin-Strife, Umbar’s naval power was transferred to Pelargir and so to Gondor. The implication is that Umbar quickly came once more under the sway of Gondor, so no new opposition fleet would be constructed there. Moreover, Gondor would once again dominate the sea-trade along the coasts, adding to its revenues and economic might as in its days of old. 

So yes, we know that there was further strife in the Fourth Age. Gondor again entered into a period of expansion, both on land and at sea. We also know, but have not discussed, the Dwarves’ return to Khazad-dûm: depending upon the interpretation of the genealogical chart, Durin VII and Last was either the son or (near) descendent of Thorin III Stonehelm, who ruled Erebor after his father Dáin II Ironfoot was killed in the Battle of Dale during the War of the Ring. In any case, it is likely the Dwarves had to fight to repossess their ancient mansions. 

Finally, we can expect that Faramir was kept rather busy in Ithilien and along the Ephel Dúath. He was responsible for disassembling Minas Morgul, no easy or pleasant task in itself, and in securing the old pass there, which might or might not have reverted to its old name of Ithil Valley: that would include retaking possession of Cirith Ungol. He would also have been responsible for routing out the remaining Orcs, not to mention whatever nastier creatures might still lurk along the old borders of Sauron’s stronghold, including some pretty nasty spiders descended from Shelob. (Of Shelob’s fate we are not told.) 

All said, there was a great deal of fighting in the early Fourth Age, and while it might have lacked the existential threat of battles of the late Third Age, it was no doubt fierce and sometimes bloody.


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## Beytran70 (Nov 9, 2020)

Some great and thorough responses about what Tolkien did write, and I certainly agree that he must have planned for a long peace for Middle Earth following the War of the Ring, but the histories still leave open some possibilities that are fun to consider. If any of you have played Lord of the Rings Online you are familiar with some of the additional baddies they cooked up within the setting, some straying further from Tolkien than others.

One particular instance related to my reference to the Nameless Things is a large colony of such creatures in Moria. If the dwarves retook that realm and began plumbing it's depths again, maybe they would have eventually uncovered even worse than the Balrog. Indeed, without the Balrog present in Moria I wonder if such creatures would be more willing to surface, lured by all the blood and strife.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Nov 9, 2020)

Gandalf's mention of the "nameless things" * may have just been a nod to a passage in The Hobbit.

I pointed out elsewhere that in neither passage are they condemned as "evil". Though that shouldn't stop anyone from taking them that way, whether in games or fanfic.

Or in bloated movies. 😂


*I'll note that I'm not taking about the Watcher in the Water here, which _was _ clearly "evil".


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## Miguel (Nov 9, 2020)

The hunter of Cuiviénen could be one major villain left in Middle-Earth, no armies, just the hunter. No one really knows for certain who or what it was: A nameless thing, a former Maia of Oromë, a spectral vision sent by Morgoth?...hmm.


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## Beytran70 (Nov 9, 2020)

What if the two blue wizards are so angry about being left out that they become evil?


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## Chaostyr (Nov 9, 2020)

Beytran70 said:


> What if the two blue wizards are so angry about being left out that they become evil?


There would have to be a lot of backstory to create if that were true. We know next to nothing about the blue wizards and for them to suddenly turn evil after Sauron is defeated would be a tough story to sell. What were they doing while Sauron was looking for the ring? Why didn't they join him? Tough questions to answer.


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## Beytran70 (Nov 9, 2020)

Chaostyr said:


> There would have to be a lot of backstory to create if that were true. We know next to nothing about the blue wizards and for them to suddenly turn evil after Sauron is defeated would be a tough story to sell. What were they doing while Sauron was looking for the ring? Why didn't they join him? Tough questions to answer.



That's true but it could also explain why they also didn't seem to actively help beyond the little passage Tolkien wrote about them helping in the East.


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## Olorgando (Nov 9, 2020)

To quote from "Peoples of Middle-earth", Christopher Tolkien quotes one of his father's last letters, no. 338 in Humphrey Carpenter's "Letters" from early June 1972, just fifteen months before his (JRRT's) death:

"I have written nothing beyond the first few years of the Fourth Age. (Except the beginning of a tale supposed to refer to the end of the reign of Eldarion about 100 years after the death of Aragorn. Then I of course discovered that the King's Peace would contain no tales worth recounting; and his wars would have little interest after the overthrow of Sauron; but that almost certainly a restlessness would appear about then, owing to the (it seems) inevitable boredom of Men with the good: there would be secret societies practising dark cults, and 'orc-cults' among the adolescents.)"

A bit further up on the same page, Christopher quotes an earlier letter (no. 256 from 1964), in which JRRT writes much the same, with the comments "... but it [the story] proved both sinister and depressing." and that "... the dynasts descended from Aragorn would become just kings and governors - like Denethor or worse." Confusingly considering this last sentence, in this letter JRRT places the story "... about 100 years after the Downfall [of Sauron] ...", which would place it into the last part of *Aragorn's* reign, with about 20 years to go! Ah, these letters! 

So anyway, where might this land us?

With George R.R. Martin? 🤨


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## Beytran70 (Nov 9, 2020)

Dark societies and orc cults? Now that's my kind of story! That does align with what I've envisioned though, and Tolkien's quote about the boredom of men with good is a nice insight. The setting of Tolkien's works was never shown to be perfect, and throughout his stories there are many wicked creatures and people who are wicked all on their own (corruption via Morgoth and Co notwithstanding). With the growing power of men in Middle Earth and the lack of elves about, I could see a renaissance of magical study that would lead to trouble down the line. Perhaps a resettlement effort in Mordor uncovers dark artifacts and lore.


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## Alcuin (Nov 9, 2020)

In regard to the two Blue Wizards, Tolkien wrote in _Letter_ 211 that
[T]hey went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Númenórean range: missionaries to “enemy-occupied” lands, as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and “magic” traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.​Tolkien gives somewhat conflicting accounts of the Blue Wizards, including two sets of names. In _Unfinished Tales_, “The Istari”, he says that Alatar was a Maia of the Vala Oromë, who chose him to go to Middle-earth, possibly because Oromë had formerly ventured far into the East, where before the Sun arose, he had found the Elves by Lake Cuiviénen. Alatar in turn took Pallando with him “as a friend”. In _Peoples of Middle-earth_, in the essay “The Five Wizards”, he names them Morinehtar and Rómestámo, along with this note: 
Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion ... and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause [? dissension and disarray] among the dark East ... They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East ... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West.​The ellipses (three dots) are in the source text; the phrase “[? dissension and disarray]” means the manuscript is unclear, but this is what Christopher Tolkien thought his father wrote. 

The four names, Alatar and Pallando, Morinehtar and Rómestámo, are all Quenya. Sindarin for “Blue Wizards” is _Ithryn Luin_. In _PoMe_, Tolkien suggests they could have arrived in the Second Age, but in the Appendices to _Return of the King_, he seems pretty clear that all the Wizards arrived sometime around the year 1000 of the Third Age, and that Gandalf came last. 

In any case, not much more is known about them, or whether they survived into the Fourth Age. (Some folks theorize that Saruman, who also travelled into the East, killed them; for myself, I rather doubt that.) If you’re looking for gaming material or ideas, they seem, if you’ll pardon the pun, fair game.


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## Elthir (Nov 10, 2020)

In addition, on the back of the paper in which Tolkien muses that two wizards came earlier
[the description Alcuin quoted before referring to Appendix B], I think it's again suggested that all the Istari arrove at the same time. On the other side of the note above, after briefly describing 
*all five* wizards, JRRT, wrote: "Now these Maiar were sent by the Valar *at a crucial moment *in the history of Middle-earth to enhance the resistance of the Elves of the West, greatly outnumbered by those of the East and South" Unfinished Tales probably 1972

In any case, none of them were blue (this detail appears in one text and is later "unsaid" by Tolkien in a letter -- and not said again anywhere . . . unless there is more to be said about them in papers not published as yet)!

Also, the enemies of the West were scared of Galadriel and weren't sure she had sailed.


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## Alcuin (Nov 10, 2020)

Elthir said:


> JRRT wrote: "Now these Maiar were sent by the Valar at a crucial moment in the history of Middle-earth to enhance the resistance of the Elves of the West, greatly outnumbered by those of the East and South" Unfinished Tales probably 1972


I just checked that citation, and yes, that’s what’s written. Why would the Valar send the Istari to help “the Elves of the West, greatly outnumbered by those of the East and South”? Does he mean _*Elves* of the East and South_? why? are they evil, or what? The implication of that passage makes no sense to me. Had he written, _to enhance the resistance of the Elves * and Men* of the West, greatly outnumbered by those of the East and South_, implying they were greatly outnumbered by other _Men_ in the East and South, Men who had fallen under the influence of Sauron, that would make perfectly good sense to me.



Elthir said:


> Also, the enemies of the West were scared of Galadriel and weren't sure she had sailed.


I can well understand that, but surely Sauron knew she had not sailed, and he was quite possibly aware that she _could not_ go into the West (at least as the story stood when Tolkien wrote _The Lord of the Rings_). But if you will, would you please point me to that information? I do not recall it.



Elthir said:


> In any case, none of them were blue (this detail appears in one text and is later "unsaid" by Tolkien in a letter -- and not said again anywhere . . . unless there is more to be said about them in papers not published as yet)!


There is no doubt much more that has not been published! I understand (please correct me if I am mistaken) that Carl Hostetter is publishing a new volume that will belong to the _History of Middle-earth_ series with the blessing of the Tolkien [family] Trust based upon previously unpublished material. Please correct me if I post something that is incorrect, but the _Letter_ in which Tolkien “unsaid” that the missing two wizards were blue is _Letter_ 211, written in 1958; I think the material in _Unfinished Tales_ and _Peoples of Middle-earth_ was written subsequently: Perhaps Tolkien assigned them colors after contemplating the subject.
_
PS – not trying to nitpick! You made very good points!_


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## Beytran70 (Nov 10, 2020)

I have some fan interpretation based on the Blue Wizard's names Morinehtar and Rómestámo (darkness slayer and east helper) which Tolkien gave them later as indications of their purpose. If taken literally and combined with what we know about all Istari and the Blue Wizards, I would wager they did go about the task of rooting out evil in the East, combatting the influence of Sauron, and aiding against the war from there.

I imagine Rómestámo was the more diplomatic of the two and may have created some alliance of faithful easterlings while Morinehtar was more combative and potentially slew a great servant of the Enemy such as a Balrog or Werewolf. Just my thoughts.


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## Elthir (Nov 10, 2020)

*Alcuin*

*A)* Yes I noticed the wording there too. I think Tolkien must surely mean the resistance of Elves and Men . . . even if this side of the paper was more legible than the "Morinehtar/Rómestámo" side.

*B)* *Apologies.* Just joking. Trying to slip a Galadriel reference in here for no real reason.




Alcuin said:


> . . . but the _Letter_ in which Tolkien “unsaid” that the missing two wizards were blue is _Letter_ 211, written in 1958; I think the material in _Unfinished Tales_ and _Peoples of Middle-earth_ was written subsequently: Perhaps Tolkien assigned them colors after contemplating the subject.




And who knows what might be found in CFH's new book!

*C)* concerning the chronology here though, as I understand things, the Istari essay published in _Unfinished_ _Tales_ was written in 1954 in association with the index for _The Lord of the Rings_, and in _The Peoples_ _of Middle-Earth_ (and elsewhere after 1958) Tolkien refers to these wizards as the "other two" or similar, not by any colour.

In short, if I have it right:

*1954:* ("Sea") Blue Wizards

*1958:* (letter 211) Tolkien doesn't know colours, doubts if they had distinctive colours

*After 1958:* JRRT refers to these wizards as "the other two" (or similar) . . . in any case, no colours noted

But CFH's book . . . yet to come!

_



PS – not trying to nitpick! You made very good points!

Click to expand...

_

_I don't mind nitpicks in any case _


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## Olorgando (Nov 11, 2020)

Alcuin said:


> There is no doubt much more that has not been published! I understand (please correct me if I am mistaken) that Carl Hostetter is publishing a new volume that will belong to the _History of Middle-earth_ series with the blessing of the Tolkien [family] Trust based upon previously unpublished material.


As to unpublished: yes, as Humphrey Carpenter noted in his introduction to "Letters":
"Among the omissions is the very large body of letters he wrote between 1913 and 1918 to Edith Bratt, who was his fiancée and then his wife; these are highly personal in character, ..."
This could mean one of two (to me plausible) things:

These letters will never be published, as considered too private, or
They might be published 100 years after JRRT's death, as was the case with Mark Twain's (complete) autobiography; that started getting published in 2010 (German translation 2012), in JRRT's case that would mean 2073 ...
As to Hostetter: looking for him in Wikipedia redirected me to the page "Elvish Linguistic Fellowship". To quote:
"The Elvish Linguistic Fellowship (E. L. F.) is a "Special Interest Group" of the Mythopoeic Society devoted to the study of the constructed languages of J.R.R. Tolkien, today headed by Carl F. Hostetter. It was founded by Jorge Quiñónez in 1988. The E. L. F. publishes two journals, Vinyar Tengwar, edited by Hostetter, and Parma Eldalamberon, edited by Christopher Gilson. There is also an online journal, Tengwestië, edited by Hostetter and Patrick H. Wynne; and it also sponsors the Lambengolmor mailing list."

This sounds like something for hard-core linguists! There are sections in both the LoTR appendices (specifically Appendix E) and in posthumous publications by Christopher where I just have to throw up my hands and give up. If the Hostetter book goes in this direction, it will be one of the rare books concerned with JRRT that I will give a pass. It makes no sense for me to buy a book where my comprehension of content approaches that which I would have if hypothetically borrowing one of Hisoka Morrow's Mandarin translations. 🥴


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## Elthir (Nov 11, 2020)

According to the interwebs, a general description of Carl's book was first released in a catalogue for the Frankfurt Book Fair in 2019. The description, excerpted from the catalogue (page 64):



> The first ever publication of J. R. R. Tolkien’s final writings on Middle-earth, covering a wide-range of subjects, and the perfect next read for those who have enjoyed _Unfinished Tales _and the _History of Middle-earth_ series and are hungry for more.
> 
> _The Nature of Middle-earth _will comprise numerous late (c. 1959-73) and previously unpublished writings by J.R.R. Tolkien on the “nature” of Middle-earth, in both chief senses of that word: both metaphysical and natural/historical.
> 
> ...




So if the book turns out to be "very" linguistical, I would say this description is a bit misleading, although _Unfinished Tales _and the later volumes of _The History of Middle-Earth_ *do* contain *some*
linguistical material of course, which might be, for some, a bit mystical.

I'm actually not expecting anything more about the not-blue wizards, but one never knows!

🐾


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## ZehnWaters (Nov 29, 2020)

Beytran70 said:


> I've always wondered whether Lord of the Rings was what Tolkien intended to be the "end" of his stories in Middle Earth. Throughout his works (and even briefly hinted at in the film versions) there are references to some sort of darkness or something not right in Middle Earth itself. Could this be part of the reason he specified where each of the Fellowship went after and why they all ended up in Valinor?
> 
> The men of the east also remained an enemy of the West as written, although as it stands they were never a meaningful threat again. With at least one Balrog still alive and such evils as The Watcher in the Water and other Nameless Things, what other evils might have remained to trouble Middle Earth in the future, and do you think Tolkien had ideas for such things in later writing or that he never got around to?
> 
> If you were to write such a story, what would the conflict be? As one interested in eldritch horror, I am fascinated by the Nameless Things and their likely origins as creatures spawned from the discordant song of Morgoth but not his children. This makes them an independent evil not associated with that line, and therefore something quite different that could threaten the balance of creation in a way skin to how a Sauron victory would tip the scales.


Tolkien had toyed with The New Shadow story taking place after LotR. As for any story I'd come up with, I had one I'd written for an RPG I liked where the Umbarians attempt to form their own empire and the heroes have to help put the scion of the claimants from the Black Nurmenoreans, Gondorian Exiles, and native Southrons in charge (he'd been raised by a pragmatic Black Numenorean who's orchestrated his birth and wanted political stability and peace with Gondor). Their opposition was a human sorcerer who'd studied under Saruman for a time and had been the vassal of Sauron shortly before the LotR.


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## Elthir (Dec 6, 2020)

A bit more information concerning the new book. Carl Hostetter posted:

*"I cannot yet speak to the contents in specifics, but let me dispel this speculation now. It is true that The Nature of Middle-earth will contain some primary material that was previously published in specialist journals; but the vast majority of the material is previously unpublished. (That's why I've been at work on this in earnest and as my schedule permits for some years now)."*

Carl F. Hostetter, Tolkien Collectors Guide Forum


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## Hisoka Morrow (Dec 8, 2020)

ZehnWaters said:


> ...Umbarians attempt to form their own empire and the heroes have to help put the scion of the claimants from the Black Nurmenoreans, Gondorian Exiles, and native Southrons in charge (he'd been raised by a pragmatic Black Numenorean who's orchestrated his birth and wanted political stability and peace with Gondor)....


Here're some advice, hope they help. War's aftermath always come up with bunches of domestic ministries problems, such as local priority of reconstruction or wealth disparity caused by wars. Maybe your Final Boss could sneak into Gondor as a statesmen, causing social problems severe enough to lead to civil wars, don't forget Gondor was a multi-race nation.


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## Rivendell_librarian (Aug 31, 2021)

I was wondering about life in The Shire in the Fourth Age. We know that Samwise Gamgee and Rose Cotton had 13 children (!) and Sam was mayor of Michel Delving (and so The Shire) seven times (hardly a quiet life!); also that Peregrin Took was Thain of the Shire and towards the end of their lives Merry and Pippin both returned to Gondor via Rohan Also that life was more peaceful and prosperous in the Fourth Age in The Shire

I was wondering about other matters. Did Gandalf leave a plentiful supply of fireworks and instructions of their manufacture? Were the Rangers still active in protecting the borders of The Shire? What happened to the Barrow-wights? Although Tolkien wrote little on the Fourth Age there is plenty of scope for story telling here.


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## Olorgando (Aug 31, 2021)

Rivendell_librarian said:


> Although Tolkien wrote little on the Fourth Age there is plenty of scope for story telling here.


Well, I don't know about that, considering JRRT's own words in chapter 3 "A Short Rest" of "The Hobbit", - not the firmest ground to tread as far as M-e canon is concerned, but the statement is of a more fundamental sort (and has recently been quoted in another thread, IIRC):

"And so at last they all came to the Last Homely House, and found its doors flung wide.
Now it is a strange thing, but things that are good to have and days that are good to spend are soon told about, and not much to listen to; while things that are uncomfortable, palpitating, and even gruesome, may make a good tale, and take a deal of telling anyway. They stayed long in that good house, fourteen days at least, ... Yet there is little to tell about their stay."
Sam is elected mayor seven times for 49 years, Pippin became Thain, Merry Master of Buckland, all three did quite a bit of writing ...

_*yawn*_

Can you imagine PJ or any other film-maker having a go at that? Blockbusters need wall-to-wall action (or so the makers believe - probably not without some justification, with the Pavlovian conditioning Bb fans have been exposed to 😈 ). To a lesser degree, I guess this goes for writing books, too.


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## Rivendell_librarian (Aug 31, 2021)

I wasn't thinking of blockbusters more Lark Rise to Candleford or in this case (for instance) Hobbiton to Michel Delving.
A little less negativity would be appreciated.


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## Olorgando (Aug 31, 2021)

Rivendell_librarian said:


> I wasn't thinking of blockbusters more Lark Rise to Candleford or in this case (for instance) Hobbiton to Michel Delving.
> A little less negativity would be appreciated.


Wikipedia came to my rescue with "Lark Rise to Candleford".
The author Flora Thompson (1976-1947) was more than half a generation older than JRRT. The stories were published just after TH, and long before LoTR.
A quote from the article:
"Because Thompson wrote her account _[1939-1943]_ some forty years after the events she describes she was able to identify the period as a pivotal point in rural history: the time when the quiet, close-knit and peaceful rural culture, governed by the seasons, began a transformation, through agricultural mechanisation, better communications and urban expansion, into the homogenised society of today."
That sounds very like, at the beginning, JRRT's time in Sarehole - which has been swallowed by Birmingham.
I'm definitely guessing, but JRRT might have nodded at some of the descriptions (something you should be able to judge, assuming you've read the books - as I do assume, as they are probably quite obscure by now).

But as follow-ups to LoTR? As book sequels? Forget films. When I wrote above "Can you imagine PJ or any other film-maker having a go at that?" I was dripping caustic sarcasm - for which we may not yet have the appropriate emoji.
But can you really imagine something in the vein of "Lark Rise to Candleford" being a sequel to LoTR?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 31, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> the Pavlovian conditioning Bb fans have been exposed to 😈


Is that B-Flat Major or Minor? 🤔

Maybe B-Flat Mordor? 😁


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## Olorgando (Aug 31, 2021)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Olorgando said:
> 
> 
> > the Pavlovian conditioning Bb fans have been exposed to 😈
> ...


If that two-letter thingy "Bb" in the middle of my earlier post has the slightest musical theory relevance, it is a total coincidence. 
I know music theory about as much as I know General Relativity Theory, or anything to do with quantum physics!


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## Rivendell_librarian (Aug 31, 2021)

All I specified and meant was "story telling" so not PJ or blockbusters or sequels. The fourth age was more peaceful and prosperous than before so a different kind of story - and I think Tolkien's world could provide material for that kind of story.


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## Olorgando (Aug 31, 2021)

Rivendell_librarian said:


> All I specified and meant was "story telling" so not PJ or blockbusters or sequels. The fourth age was more peaceful and prosperous than before so a different kind of story - and I think Tolkien's world could provide material for that kind of story.





Olorgando said:


> "And so at last they all came to the Last Homely House, and found its doors flung wide.
> Now it is a strange thing, but things that are good to have and days that are good to spend are soon told about, and not much to listen to; while things that are uncomfortable, palpitating, and even gruesome, may make a good tale, and take a deal of telling anyway. They stayed long in that good house, fourteen days at least, ... Yet there is little to tell about their stay."


R_l, I do not doubt in the slightest that there are different ways of telling stories than JRRT did in LoTR, or more generally M-e. I just doubt that JRRT would have told them. I mean, compared to his sources Norse Eddas and Sagas, the Finnish Kalevala, others ... JRRT had toned every of his sources down. But that toning-down also had its limits (though they may have been shaky, as HoMe volumes 6 to 8 and a part of 9 and Tom Shippey's comments on that part seem to show).

As just popped into my mind: where's the quest? TH and LoTR are quest stories (the latter, as cannot be repeated enough, an anti-quest!).
Merry or Pippin running as opposition candidates in one of Sam's mayoral elections?

No, I don't think JRRT could have provided material for the more peaceful and prosperous Fourth Age ...


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## Ciderwell (Aug 31, 2021)

I would like to have seen Frodo return from the Blessed Realm a Wizard. Perhaps he could have tackled a new threat to Middle-earth - something more applicable to the 21st century!


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## Rivendell_librarian (Aug 31, 2021)

I didn't specify Tolkien telling the stories either.


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## Shadow (Sep 1, 2021)

Chaostyr said:


> I personally like the fact that Tolkien abandoned the Fourth Age sequel he was working on. It makes the downfall of Sauron much sweeter, especially when you read about his history in the Silmarillion. I prefer to think of the Fourth Age as a very long, peaceful, and prosperous age for all inhabitants of Middle- Earth.


Absolutely agree. Anything that followed I would imagine and prefer to be minor and thus not really worth elaborating on. The story feels complete as is.


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## John (Sep 1, 2021)

Beytran70 said:


> I've always wondered whether Lord of the Rings was what Tolkien intended to be the "end" of his stories in Middle Earth. Throughout his works (and even briefly hinted at in the film versions) there are references to some sort of darkness or something not right in Middle Earth itself. Could this be part of the reason he specified where each of the Fellowship went after and why they all ended up in Valinor?
> 
> The men of the east also remained an enemy of the West as written, although as it stands they were never a meaningful threat again. With at least one Balrog still alive and such evils as The Watcher in the Water and other Nameless Things, what other evils might have remained to trouble Middle Earth in the future, and do you think Tolkien had ideas for such things in later writing or that he never got around to?
> 
> If you were to write such a story, what would the conflict be? As one interested in eldritch horror, I am fascinated by the Nameless Things and their likely origins as creatures spawned from the discordant song of Morgoth but not his children. This makes them an independent evil not associated with that line, and therefore something quite different that could threaten the balance of creation in a way skin to how a Sauron victory would tip the scales.


I do Not Think That There would Be any Furthur Conflict Because with the dominion Of Men, Things Changed


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