# Osgiliath After the War of the Ring



## Sauron (Nov 14, 2005)

Is there any mention in Tolkien's writings about whether Osgiliath becomes the capital of Gondor again after the destruction of the One Ring and the subsequent fall of Sauron? Or is Minas Tirith (or is it once again Minas Anor?) to remain the permanent capital that it became later in the Third Age?


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## Ithrynluin (Nov 14, 2005)

I believe Osgiliath is never rebuilt again after its destruction and Minas Tirith remains the capital and continues to be known by that name.


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## Sauron (Nov 15, 2005)

Ithrynluin said:


> I believe Osgiliath is never rebuilt again after its destruction and Minas Tirith remains the capital and continues to be known by that name.



Interesting. Where did Tolkien write that? And why was Osgiliath not reclaimed as the capital and seat of government? Was it too exposed to possible attack from Mordor despite the fact that Sauron and the Nazgul were gone, or was it some other reason?


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## Thorondor_ (Nov 15, 2005)

I think Ithrynluin might be reffering to this passage from "The stewards":



> In the last years of Denethor I the race of uruks, black orcs of great strength, first appeared out of Mordor, and in 2475 they swept across Ithilien and took Osgiliath. Boromir son of Denethor (after whom Boromir of the Nine Walkers was later named) defeated them and regained Ithilien; but Osgiliath was finally ruined, and its great stone-bridge was broken. No people dwelt there afterwards


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## Maeglin (Nov 15, 2005)

Faramir does end up reigning in Ithilien, so it is possible that it was rebuilt, but there is no mention (to my knowledge) of it becoming the capital again.


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## Sauron (Nov 15, 2005)

Maeglin said:


> Faramir does end up reigning in Ithilien, so it is possible that it was rebuilt, but there is no mention (to my knowledge) of it becoming the capital again.


Yes, according to http://www.tuckborough.net/towns.html (I don't know how reliable it is, but at least it's _something_), it says that Osgiliath was indeed rebuilt during the reign of King Elessar, and that it didn't reclaim its role as capital of Gondor _during his reign_. 

So what happened after his son Eldarion succeeded him?


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## Alcuin (Nov 15, 2005)

It would make sense for the Dúnedain to rebuild the bridge, and that might encourage the reconstruction of a town or settlement there, even if it never became the capital again. 

The incomplete story “The New Shadow” published in _Peoples of Middle-Earth_ about 


Tolkien said:


> a story placed about 100 years after the Downfall [of Sauron], … an outcrop of revolutionary plots. … I could have written a ‘thriller’ about the plot and its discovery and overthrow - but it would be just that. Not worth doing.


 has a aged Borlas, “described at the beginning of the story as the younger son of Beregond, and ... thus the brother of Bergil son of Beregond who was Pippin's companion in Minas Tirith,” sitting in Emyn Arnen with a younger friend, Saelon:


> The two were sitting in an arbour near the steep eastern shore of Anduin where it flowed about the feet of the hills of Arnen. They were indeed in Borlas's garden and his small grey-stone house could be seen through the trees above them on the hillslope facing west. Borlas looked at the river, and at the trees in their June leaves, and then far off to the towers of the City under the glow of late afternoon...


 That city was probably Minas Tirith, within sight of Emyn Arnen, as it says in _Return of the King_:


> Aragorn gave to Faramir Ithilien to be his princedom, and bade him dwell in the hills of Emyn Arnen within sight of the City.


 Beregond, Borlas’ father, was exiled from Minas Tirith for killing the porter at the door to Rath Dínen in his frantic efforts to save Faramir, and he was sent by Aragorn to live with Faramir as part of “the White Company, the Guard of Faramir.” So at that point, at least, Minas Tirith was still the capital.


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## Sangahyando (Nov 16, 2005)

Even with Elessar Telcontar and his descendants, the Telcontari on the throne of Gondor, they would not rebuild Osgiliath, as it had already begun to decay when Castamir attacked Osgiliath with the support of Umbar and Pelargir (so sad), they simply would not be able to restore Osgiliath to its full Numenorean glory, especially the Dome of the Stars.

Sangahyando, great-grandson of Castamir the Usurper


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## Arvedui (Nov 16, 2005)

As Faramir was bidden to dwell in the hills of Emyn Arnen, it makes it quite possible that neither Osgiliath nor Minas Morgul was ever used again. 
Would there have been any use for either of them anyway?
It would probably have been a lot cheaper to build a new dwelling, than restoring old ones. Better to have the memories of what once was, than a cheap copy.


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## Alcuin (Nov 16, 2005)

> …Aragorn gave to Faramir Ithilien to be his princedom, and bade him dwell in the hills of Emyn Arnen within sight of the City.
> ‘For,’ said he, ‘Minas Ithil in Morgul Vale shall be utterly destroyed, and though it may in time to come be made clean, no man may dwell there for many long years.’


 The Captains crossed the River at Osgiliath on their way to Morannon. I still say they had reason to reconstruct the bridge there, particularly early on, when Gimli and the Dwarves of Erebor had returned to help rebuild the Gate of Minas Tirith. It was necessary for commerce and for war, which Gondor and Rohan continued to wage against their old adversaries long after Sauron had fallen.


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## Mith (Nov 16, 2005)

I don't think it was re-built again, as it was just an outpost next to the land of Mordor. And if the evil was extirpated from that land, there were no reasons to build it again... Or at leas in the middle-age (not earth...) every town was built for a precise reason...


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## Ingwë (Nov 17, 2005)

I think that Osgiliath was rebuilt after the War of the Ring. Faramir dwell in the hills of Emyn Arnen because Aragorn thought that Minas Morgul is evil place... But he didn't said that Osgiliath musn't be rebuilt. The quote is:



> 'For,' said he, 'Minas Ithil in Morgul Vale shall be utterly destroyed, and though it may in time to come be made clean, no man may dwell there for many long years.'


I think that Minas Morgul would be rebuilt after a long while. But Osgiliath is important. I agree with Alcuin. Its brigde is very important so I'm sure that it was rebuilt. And Osgiliath was rebuilt


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## Arvedui (Nov 17, 2005)

If so, then where do you find any hints to this.
there are anumber of things that would suggest otherwise.

Faramir building in Emyn Arnen is one.
The number of Gondorians is another.
Rebuilding Arnor is a third.

I don't think that rebuilding Osgiliath would have a high enough priority! The bridge is one thing, a whole city is quite different.


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## Ingwë (Nov 17, 2005)

Élhendi, 
how can a big realm like Aragorn's exist? They had to trade to the other lands. The brigde was very important and it was in the city. How can the traders pass the city when it is ruined? First, I think it was cleared up and then step by step it was rebuilt. It was important place for developing the economy. 
You know about the Netherlans in the ages after the Middle ages. Their ports became very important because of the trade. And Osgiliath was very important. Similarities...


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## Arvedui (Nov 18, 2005)

Which lands would they trade with? Which lands that made a bridge at Osgiliath so important that they had to rebuild the city around it?
For trading ith the lands to the south, they had Pelargír. For trade with the north, they could go through the Gap of Rohan. For trade eastwards, they could cross Andúin anywhere. That also goes for communication between Faramir and Elessar.

So there is no 'must' for rebuilding Osgiliath.


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## Noldor_returned (Nov 19, 2005)

My personal opinion is that Osgiliath was rebuilt, although the chief of the population remained in Minas Tirith (I also think it would keep it's name). It would never again be as beautiful as it once was.
Based on evidence already pointed out from LOTR, it was a pivotal point, and if remnants of Orcs became organised and took control of it (before it was rebuilt) they would use it to attack the rest of Gondor. I think that Elessar Telcontar had too much to do with the complete desecration of Mordor, that he would have ignored Osgiliath for a while. His son, however, may have chosen to rebuild the city and use it as a centre of business.
I sort of had to hurry with this, so I'll put up a more detailed response up in the very near future.


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## Arvedui (Nov 21, 2005)

How could Orcs regain Osgiliath?
Why do you think Faramir was ordered to abode in Ithilien?


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## Ingwë (Nov 21, 2005)

*Élhendi,*
Who should they cross the river when they can rebuilt the bridge? They can cross the rived using ships but I think that it is far more clever to built a bridge? The civilizations built a bridge when they will use it. That bridge was built by the Gondorians because they had two cities - Minas Anor and Minas Ithil. But the bridge was destroyed and Osgiliath was ruined. 
However, Faramir was ordered to dwell in Emyn Arnen  How did they travel from Minas Tirith to the hills? By ship? It wasn't good idea  They just rebuilt the brigde. We know that Aragorn fought against his enemies. Did he use the old road winding  around Mordor? If he used it I'm sure that he built the bridge. A bridge over such a big river as Anduin was very, very useful. 
Well, I will return to the First age when Finrod built the bridge over the river of Narog. It was very important because it was the entrance to the city. 
Crossing the river (Anduin) on boat is not the best way. However, crossing it on foot it better way.


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## Arvedui (Nov 21, 2005)

You don't have to build a city just so that you can have a bridge crossing the river...


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## Arvegil (Nov 23, 2005)

I would expect at least some rebuilding, even if not a full-scale restoration. Before the development of railroads, rivers and barges were the most economically efficient way to move goods, and the old Osgiliath site would be the logical place to place berths to service goods coming to and from both Ithilien and Minas Tirith (think about how ancient Athens needed Piraeus).

As long as docks are being built in the same place, building any needed bridge over the river in that location would also make sense. So, even if Osgiliath was never restored to its former glory (and Tolkien is silent on the point), it would make sense to expect some rebuilding of commercial and transportation activity.


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## Ingwë (Nov 28, 2005)

Élhendi said:


> You don't have to build a city just so that you can have a bridge crossing the river...


Élhendi,
I promise you, I will write an essay about the infrastructure of Gondor through the years and I will post it in The Halls of Tolkienology. However, I will do it after a month because I have term tests this week.


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## Hammersmith (Nov 28, 2005)

Interesting, I recall reading somewhere that Osgiliath was _never_ rebuilt and that Minas Tirith remained the capital. Maybe in the appendices? I don't have a copy of any books at the moment.

Ingwe, about what you were saying, the rebuilding of the bridge; I agree fully that bridges are one of the most important pieces of infrastructure to rebuild, especially as Gondor's realm would spread and settlers would doubtless begin to move east. The Easterlings would not remain hostile forever surely and trade eastward would be necessary. However, that doesn't mean that 1) the bridge would be in Osgiliath - why not at Cair Andros? or 2) that the city would be rebuilt around it - though logical to rebuild it around any transport route Tolkien may have had reasons for leaving the city ruined or even 3) that Tolkien agreed with our logic, for he may easily have decided that trade east would not benefit Gondor, and while he may have been incorrect in this his word is sort of final.

Of course, we don't have anything definite, which is why until a quote floats to the surface to prove that Osgiliath remained desolate I shall side with Ingwe.


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## Ingwë (Nov 29, 2005)

Hammersmith said:


> Of course, we don't have anything definite, which is why until a quote floats to the surface to prove that Osgiliath remained desolate I shall side with Ingwe.


Well, I can't say anything, but I can use emoticon  : 



Hammersmith said:


> 1) the bridge would be in Osgiliath - why not at Cair Andros?


Actually, I can answer your quetion  Look at the attachment. Where is Cair Andros? It is norther than the line Minas Tirith - Minas Ithil. There is no road from Cair Andros to the other road around Mordor. If they build the brigde there they will have to build a new road.


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## Thorondor_ (Nov 29, 2005)

> Of course, we don't have anything definite, which is why until a quote floats to the surface to prove that Osgiliath remained desolate I shall side with Ingwe.


I did provide such a quote, in the 4th post here, from The Stewards, Rotk ("Osgiliath was finally ruined, and its great stone-bridge was broken. No people dwelt there afterwards"); I am curious why it went by unnoticed.


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## Arvedui (Dec 3, 2005)

Ingwë said:


> Actually, I can answer your quetion  Look at the attachment. Where is Cair Andros? It is norther than the line Minas Tirith - Minas Ithil. There is no road from Cair Andros to the other road around Mordor. If they build the brigde there they will have to build a new road.


Why is it important to have line from Minas Tirith to Minas Ithil? There were noone living in Minas Ithil either!

And as we all can read, Thorondor_ has settled the question, hasn't he?


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## Ingwë (Dec 6, 2005)

> Why is it important to have line from Minas Tirith to Minas Ithil? There were noone living in Minas Ithil either!


If you don't like that passage then just look at this one: _There is no road from Cair Andros to the other road around Mordor. If they build the brigde there they will have to build a new road. _



> And as we all can read, Thorondor_ has settled the question, hasn't he?


Be happy


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## Hammersmith (Dec 6, 2005)

Ingwë said:


> Actually, I can answer your quetion  Look at the attachment. Where is Cair Andros? It is norther than the line Minas Tirith - Minas Ithil. There is no road from Cair Andros to the other road around Mordor. If they build the brigde there they will have to build a new road.


I'd rather build a road than a city


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## Ingwë (Dec 7, 2005)

Hammersmith said:


> I'd rather build a road than a city


Then you'll ignore the city of Faramir  Osgiliath was the center of Gondor, Citadel of the Stars. Faramir's city is in South Ithilien, you bridge will be in Cair Andros. How will you people travel from Emyn Arnen to Minas Tirith? By ship? That is not good idea. The Gondorians don't have vities in the north, I mean norther than Calenardor (Rohan). If they build brigde, they will build it near the center of the kingdom


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