# High elves & Gildor's Lineage



## Confusticated (Oct 1, 2002)

*High elves?*

Frodo said "These are High Elves! They spoke the name of Elbereth!'"

Was Frodo's assumption correct? Would only a high elf speak the name of Elbereth?
Is it true that "high elves" is just another name for the Calaquendi?

Did those elves encountered in the shire by the Hobbits come from Aman?


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## gate7ole (Oct 1, 2002)

Elbereth = The most common Sindarin name for Varda
Sindar=the Teleri elves that never went to Valinor (but not those who refused from the beginning at Cuivienen, these are called Avari.
High-Elves=Vanyar, Noldor, Teleri that went to Valinor.
Sindarin=the common language of Beleriand. When the Noldor returned to Middle Earth, they were speaking the Quenya. But the other elven races (especially Thingol and the grey-elves) spoke Sindarin. So, the Noldor adopted the Sindarin dialect too. So the Sindarin may be spoken by all elves (e.g. Legolas, Cirdan) and not only the High Elves. Thus, I assume that Frodo was not very precise.

Also, the High-elves are called Calaquendi, the elves of Light, because they saw the light of Aman, in comparison to the Moriquendi (the Dark-Elves).

As for Gildor and his company, as long as they say that they come from Finrod's house, why shouldn't I believe them? They are High-Elves, of the few that haven't returned back to Aman.


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## Ithrynluin (Oct 1, 2002)

I think they are High Elves too.Gildor says he's of the house of Finrod and that doesn't necessarily mean that he has been to Aman (he could have been born in Beleriand),so I guess it's all a matter of personal opinion.


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## Confusticated (Oct 1, 2002)

*gate7ole..*

So all high elves are elves of light?
I thought so, buteople insist that Gildor is not the son of Finrod.

Frodo may have been wrong, but since you think that he probably was not, this means that you think that Gildor and friends had been to Aman. Is it not then too far fetched for you to think that Gildor may be the son of Finrod? Couldn't Finrod have had a son after returning to Aman? And couldn't Gildor and other elves have come to Middle-earth during the second age?


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## Lantarion (Oct 2, 2002)

I don't think he was the son of Finrod.. It would have been mentioned somewhere, and I can't find any info indicating this.. He was of the house of Finrod, but probably not of direct lineage to Finrod at all.
Heh, a humorous thought I just had about the word _Calaquendi_.. In Finnish _kala_ means 'fish'!


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## Confusticated (Oct 2, 2002)

One detail that causes me to think that these were high elves was the shimmer about thier feet. Does anyone else who doubts Frodo's reasoning use that for evidence? Correct me if I am wrong.


and gate7ole..


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## JanitorofAngmar (Oct 2, 2002)

Yes - they were definately "high" alright.

Singing and laughing...perhaps THEY found a "shortcut to mushrooms" hmmm?

JoA


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## gate7ole (Oct 2, 2002)

Ok, confusticated you got me.
If Gildor was of the line of Finrod but had been born in Beleriand, then the question is whether he is a High-Elf.
Again I repeat that High-elves are the Calaquendi, those who have seen the light. So, Gildor (if we suppose he was born in ME) cannot be a Calaquendi. He cannot also be a Sindar (these are only the Teleri left back), he cannot be any other Avari (because he never denied the travel to Aman), he cannot be of course any other division (like Vanyar, Teleri or Silvan).
Then what is he? He is just a Noldo. A Noldo but not a Calaquendi.
If this means that he is a High-elf, I don't know it. You should ask Grond for this.


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## Confusticated (Oct 2, 2002)

Well I was not trying to "get you".. I just want to know what people think. I also wanted verification of the exact definition of "high elves". I wanted to know if anyone thought that the shimmering at the feet of the elves is a tip off that they are elves of light.


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## Tar-Elenion (Oct 2, 2002)

The exact definition of "High Elves" in LotR is "the Noldor, followers of Feanor". See the index to LotR.


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## Lantarion (Oct 3, 2002)

> _Last posted by JanitorOfAngmar_
> *Yes - they were definately "high" alright.
> Singing and laughing...perhaps THEY found a "shortcut to mushrooms" hmmm?
> 
> ...


ROTFLMAO!!!!    *gasp* Can't...breathe..


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## Cian (Oct 3, 2002)

An entry in _Morgoth's Ring_ reads: The Elves who were in or who ever had dwelt in Aman were called the High-elves (_Tareldar_) ~ agreeing with _The Silmarillion_ index and the UT index (see also _High Folk of the West_).

Note in LOTR "High-elven" was an ancient tongue of Eldamar beyond the Sea, and used (as Tar-E noted already): _... by the High Elves, who had returned in Exile to Middle-earth at the end of the First Age."_

In _Letters_ (not the only mention of the term) Tolkien wrote: _" ... The High Elves met in this book are Exiles, returned back over sea to Middle-earth,"_ and describes the High Elves as those who passed over Sea, and: _"... who became immensely enhanced in powers and knowledge."_

My edition has the same entry as Tar-Elenion quoted (H.Collins Pb one vol. edition 1995)


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## Ceorl (Oct 3, 2002)

Gildor was defintely not a son of Finrod as Finrod Felagund did not marry;


> Now King Finrod Felagund had no wife, and Galadriel asked him why this should be; but foresight came upon Felagund as she spoke, and he said: 'An oath I too shall swear, and must be free to fulfill it and go into darkness. Nor shall anything of my realm endure that a son should inherit'



However the term 'household' can, to my understanding betoken not only a persons direct descendants, but his kin and even the family servants that are loyal to him.


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## Ravenna (Oct 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ceorl _
> *Gildor was defintely not a son of Finrod as Finrod Felagund did not marry;
> 
> However the term 'household' can, to my understanding betoken not only a persons direct descendants, but his kin and even the family servants that are loyal to him. *



The term can also be extended to any who live under alleigance to the person named, or even that Gildor simply was an elf of Nargothrond which could, at a stretch, be termed 'the house of Finrod'.


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## gate7ole (Oct 4, 2002)

Also, I read somewhere that the Green-Elves of Ossiriand were Noldor who were split from the others in the way and finally arrived at Ossiriand and established their realm. They are not considered Avari, nor Eldar, but they are told Pereldar (half Eldar).
This may be the point with Gildor. He may not be an Eldar (High-Elf) but a Pereldar, meaning that he was born in ME by Eldar ancestors.


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## Cian (Oct 4, 2002)

_Pereldar_ refers to being "half-elven", as with Elrond, Arwen, Elladan and Elrohir for examples, who had mortal as well as Elvish ancestors.

_Elda_ did not, in accurate use, include the Avari ~ it took on the sense of _Eldo_ (which fell out of use) "one of the Marchers". Those who began the March West were Eldar. _Tareldar_ "High-elves".


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## Tar-Elenion (Oct 4, 2002)

The Nandor are referred to as 'Pereldar' in earlier writings. JRRT abandoned this and used Pereldar as Cian has said.


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## gate7ole (Oct 6, 2002)

Something that I recently read, seems to clarify the problem with Gildor’s origins.
In the HOME series, it is shown how the Silmarillion evolved throughout the course of the history. Up to 1938 (that is the year Tolkien started writing Lotr), the three houses of the Noldor were Feanor, Finfolfin and Firnod. Finafrin was still absent. Finrod’s son was not called Finrod of course, but just Felagund. So Finrod was the 3rd son of Finwe who did not return to ME.
At this time Tolkien started writing the first chapters of FOTR. We read in HOME VI:
“At this time Finrod was the name of the third son of Finwe. This was later changed to Finafrin, but my father did not change ‘of the house of Finrod’ to ‘of the house of Finarfin’ in the second edition of LOTR.
This clarifies a lot. Gildor was ‘of the house of Finrod’ but he was actually born in Valinor. The name of his house originated from the earlier conception of the Silamrillion, where Finrod was Finwe’s son and it was not changed afterwards. So, I think it is almost definite to say that Gildor was a High-Elf that had once lived in Valinor and came from Finarfin’s (emended from Finrod’s) house.
These all maybe not be that important to most, but in case someone wondered…


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## Ceorl (Oct 6, 2002)

I am afraid I have to disagree there. The Lord of the Rings was also being reviewed and rewritten throughout its creation, such a glaring error would doubtless have been fixed, later on. To me it is obvious that JRRT rather choose to leave it in as an indication that Gildor was of the house of Finrod Felagund. Much like Tolkien chose to leave the statement in the Green Dragon about the walking tree;IMO to give readers some kind of taste of Ents so as to provide points of reference later on.

However I doubt very much that Tolkien would have left that name in, if he intended it to be Finarfin.


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## gate7ole (Oct 6, 2002)

But follow my thought:
Tolkien writes that Gildor is from Finrod's house, meaning the 3rd son of Finwe. The first edition of LOTR is published. Then Tolkien changes some names anf Finrod becomes Finarfin. After a while, he has to make the appropriate changes to LOTR. He tries not to confuse many people and stick to the necessary changes only. Gildor's origins either from Finrod or from Finarfin don't change the meaning that he is a High-Elf. So, he lets it be the same.
Of course I can't know how Tolkien thought but this is what I believe happened.


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