# Would Glorfindel be a better companion for Frodo on the way to Mt. Doom?



## Eriol (Aug 13, 2003)

An interesting question, accidentally suggested by RD. 

What do you think?


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## Meselyn (Aug 13, 2003)

I think it all depends on how he would have handeled the situation when he got gollum of him and found Shelob about to hurt frodo.


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## Beorn (Aug 13, 2003)

First off, that should say accidentally suggested by RD 

Anyhow, I think it would have been a bad idea for Glor to go along. Remember the orcs are looking for a powerful elf lord? Glor I think would leave too much destruction in his path.

Additionally, Sam provided the support that Frodo, his friend, needed. Frodo was the leader. If Glor went along, he would be the leader. Glorfindel would not be able to give the support that Frodo needed.


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## Meselyn (Aug 13, 2003)

yeah i forgot about the elf thing.


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## Eriol (Aug 13, 2003)

The "accidental" bit is done.

I think the main problem is that Glorfindel would try to get the Ring. He would not resist it in the long run; if he actually had to use it (as Sam did), then there is no chance he'd manage.


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## Inderjit S (Aug 13, 2003)

No it wasn't a good idea, it is a pretty ridiculous notion IMO, Tolkien made the story as it is for a reason, not for some hunky Elf to come to the rescue of the Hairy Hobbits every 5 minutes, it wouldn't have had the magic of the story if that happened, IMO.


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## Eriol (Aug 13, 2003)

Well, Elrond did not think it was such a ridiculous notion. He would send an Elven Lord if Pippin and Merry did not go.

I think it would have resulted in failure, but I don't think it is ridiculous. 

As for the storetelling aspect, what is the difference between a hunky Elf and a wizened wizard? Tolkien separated them quite easily at Moria and Parth Galen. Glorfindel could end up as a reinforcement in Helm's Deep, anyway. He'd probably be welcomed there.


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## Feanorian (Aug 13, 2003)

> As for the storetelling aspect, what is the difference between a hunky Elf and a wizened wizard? Tolkien separated them quite easily at Moria and Parth Galen. Glorfindel could end up as a reinforcement in Helm's Deep, anyway. He'd probably be welcomed there.



I think any warrior against Orcs would be welcome there . It's important that only one Elf was on this mission, it shows the waxing of the Elves ecspecially the Noldor. If Glorfindel were to go on the journey or be at Helm's Deep it would not be right, he should be getting ready to leave M-E and go to the bliss of Aman, he should'nt have to put himself in danger, hes already died once(or did he )


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## Meselyn (Aug 13, 2003)

As im reading all these posts there giving me ideas on the subject. I think that the elves have done enough in the war against saruon. They fought against him with the men. I think that elrond thought that he had forseen what Boromir was going to do even before the fellowship left rivendell. I think that he thought Glorfindel might do the same thing somewere down the road. Now im not insulting Glorfindel or anything. Though i don't think if Feanorian is right that he died once and elves have 2 lives he had already used one and had another and with all those orcs going to helm's Deep he couldn't afford to die.


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## Feanorian (Aug 13, 2003)

> Though i don't think if Feanorian is right that he died once and elves have 2 lives he had already used one and had another and with all those orcs going to helm's Deep he couldn't afford to die.



Well, if you read of the Fall of Gondolin then you will see what I am talking about. It mentions Glorfindel there and how he fought off a Balrog at Cirith Thoronath (Eagle's Cleft) where he had to sacrafice himself and was pretty much responsible for the company's escape (the company containing Tuor, Earendil, and Idril of course) to join with the people of Elwing at the mouth Sirion, it has been debated repeatedly and I was just trying to get a rise out of some of the other members


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## Rangerdave (Aug 13, 2003)

Just in case no one read my completely off topic post to the original question.

Here is my reply which spawned this thread


> Note: Thisis strictly a personal opinion, no real scholarship should be derived from this response.
> 
> 
> I believe that having Glorfindel deliver Frodo to Mt Doom would be a tragic mistake, doomed to almost certain failure.
> ...



Boy do I feel the fool

RD


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## Mr. Underhill (Aug 13, 2003)

I thought this very question was debated at the Council of Elrond ... and Gandalf told Elrond something like "even if you choose an Elf-Lord like Glorfindel he cannot storm the Dark Tower ..." etc. The Company was chosen for fellowship, hence the first book's title.


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## Eriol (Aug 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rangerdave _
> *
> Boy do I feel the fool
> 
> RD *



If there is a fool there, RD, then there are two; I was just as foolish as you. Not for the first time...


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## Beleg (Aug 14, 2003)

I say no, 

Because as Eriol mentioned I don't think he would have been able to ignore the lure of the Ring for long, speciall if he was in Sam's position. 
Although If he had been included instead of Pippin, then perhaps he wouldn't have picked up the Plantir knowing it, and he would be the third elvish [including undecided Peredhel] companion of Aragon's team. 
But barring the 'ring lure' Glorifindel would have been a better choice then Pippin.

This leads me to Question,* why not send a team of about ten to fifteen elf Lords to Gondor?* it would have greatly strengthened the Gondorian army and Denethor, all the proud man he was, would have probably accepted the aid, since his favorite son Boromir alluded to the need of aid, in arms in the Council of Elrond. 


Sorry for trying to hack your thread Eriol.  But I feel the matter is too trivial and interelated to warrant a wholly seperate thread.

I get the notion that while picking the fellowship [and in the very idea of the fellowship, a somewhat symbolic name to counter the Nine Ringwraiths] Gandalf and Elrond depended more on instinct then anything else. 

Actually dying to save the life of many others would be a Noble act. And as for going to Aman, well Glorifindel would be re-born again, so It won't matter much if he died.


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## Rangerdave (Aug 14, 2003)

Another thing that bothers me about sending Glorfindel to Mt Doom.

When Frodo, rejects his mission and declaires the Ring his own, and vows to keep it rather than destroy it. What then?
Would Gollum still be around to bite the finger, or would Glorfindel be forced to do what Elrond should have done an age earlier.

Namely drop kicking the ring-bearer into the pit.

Not a very happy ending



RD


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## Eriol (Aug 14, 2003)

Hmm... I think there were safety issues in the trip to Gondor for that hypothetical team of Elf-Lords. They could not go with the Fellowship or secrecy would be lost; which route would they take then? The Gap of Rohan and Saruman? The High Pass and the Orcs and Giants (do the Hobbit's giants still exist in Tolkien's view at LotR?)? Or the road by the sea, probably just to get at Minas Tirith's ruins?

I don't claim that it is impossible, only that Elrond thought it was not worth the trouble.

On the other hand, they _had_ a task near at hand that was worth the trouble: protecting Bree and perhaps even the Shire. This is a more hard-to-answer question in my opinion. Why was Glorfindel & Co. not protecting Bree, at least? No matter how much men are estranged from elves, I think the Breelanders would welcome that. 

So you won't be able to call me Eri anymore, eh, Beleg?


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## Meselyn (Aug 14, 2003)

yeah i think that is a hard question to answer. I think the elves frodo and the ohters met in the beginning of th FOTR were protecting the shire like the rangers were (thank you gandalf and elrond).


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## Brytta (Aug 14, 2003)

From both a story-telling and strategic point of view, Sam is the man!

Besides, I don't think Glorfindel could pull off the orc masquerade as well as Frodo and Sam


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## Wolfshead (Aug 14, 2003)

I think it's impossible to say how the fellowship would have turned out had others been with them. There are so many things that could have happened differently, thus resulting in different routes being taken, or indeed, failure. However, the ones that did go seemed to work out alright, didn't they?


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## Mr. Underhill (Aug 14, 2003)

I believe that perhaps Glorfindel was never necessary ... Perhaps the entire Quest was guided from Aman all along. Didn't Gandalf once say that Bilbo was "meant" to find the Ring? If so, then Frodo was "meant" to inherit the Ring. Maybe this was the Valar's way of tidying up what they had left undone so that the Age of Men could begin. The quest of the Fellowship may have been guided from afar all along. The Istari would have been sent to rally the free peoples so that they could play their part in deciding their own fate.


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## Beleg (Aug 15, 2003)

> When Frodo, rejects his mission and declaires the Ring his own, and vows to keep it rather than destroy it. What then?
> Would Gollum still be around to bite the finger, or would Glorfindel be forced to do what Elrond should have done an age earlier.
> 
> Namely drop kicking the ring-bearer into the pit.
> ...



A few Questions. 

Could Elrond have done that?
Was it a valid enough to reason to kill one of your best friend and son of your saviors?
Would Glorifindel have been able to hide and find hiding places as conveniently as Glorfindel?


> The High Pass and the Orcs and Giants (do the Hobbit's giants still exist in Tolkien's view at LotR?)?



The trollshaws were empty when Frodo and company went through them. I could argue that they could have taken the high pass. Afterall if it hadn't snowed over at Cardharas, [And it was winter] then the fellowship wouldn't have been able to successly pass over towards the other side. Boromir came a lot earlier then the fellowship went away, and if immediate steps had been taken, then a team of a dozen elf lords could have easily gone over cardharas before the start of Winter. Didn't Galadhrim said that they had recieved messages? 
High pass was also a possibility, since orcs of Gundabad were destroyed, and all the elves would have to do was to go to the carrock and then go down south remaining on the Western side of the Anduin. Unlike Men they wouldn't have been threatened by Lorien and would have recieved help. Once they reach Lorien it would have been easy to pass the wold, maybe enter Fanghorn, pass into Rohan [Wearing Lorien cloaks] and enter Gondor. 
Not very difficult in my opinion. I don't think it was any trouble and my personal belief is that Elrond erred, given the situation. 
But Shire was protected by the rangers during the earlier months of the fellowship, and as for Bree, Bree was a seperate community and the villages weren't directly threatened. I mean Aragon did say that bloodcurdling things lived not a day's march from Bree, but would they attack Bree or had they attacked Bree? I think not. Breelanders were quite capable of dealing with the stray ruffian that might drift into their teritory. I also believe that the dwellings of the Dunedain would be nearby, possibly In Norbury or near lake evendium. They would still get some protection from them. 

Sadly, No.  But atleast my name now won't be butchered! 



> yeah i think that is a hard question to answer. I think the elves frodo and the ohters met in the beginning of th FOTR were protecting the shire like the rangers were (thank you gandalf and elrond).



Galdor and company were going towards the havens, probably to depart from Middle-Earth forever.



> I believe that perhaps Glorfindel was never necessary ... Perhaps the entire Quest was guided from Aman all along. Didn't



Interesting point of view, Mr. Underhill. Although I don't necessarily believe that but it can be a possibility. My thoughts are that Amanian help was limited to the sending of Istari, Glorfindel and no more. They believed that Sauron was the problem of the people of Middle-earth and it should be solved by them. 
And in this case why choose Frodo? Frodo was very lucky on more then one places and in the end even sccucumbed to the lure of the Ring. Would the Amanian powers have wanted that? Or do you think they set up the whole Gollum facade and in reality Gollum was only contrived to destroy the ring? 
Was Manwe capable of doing this? I think not. Surelyhe couldn't meddle in the affairs of people like this.


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## Eriol (Aug 15, 2003)

As usual, right on, Beleg. Just a comment about Bree and the Shire; I think that some Elf Lords, even very few of them, could have prevented the problems that happened in that year in both places. Elrond shows in FotR that he fears something like it. So what were the Elf Lords doing, then? Send half a dozen of "husky Elves" to protect Bree and the Shire, and the ruffians would be thwarted, or so I think. This is not merely a matter of fighting power, but of leadership as well. I think that if there were some leaders in Bree or in the Shire then everything the ruffians did would have been averted.


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## Beleg (Aug 15, 2003)

On retrospect, I feel that you are pretty correct. Although it stands to reason that the Shire folk mightn't have wanted help from strange folks.


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## Meselyn (Aug 17, 2003)

Yah. Just look at the scouring of the shire.


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## William Amos (Aug 17, 2003)

I posted a thread several months ago about this very subject.

It was to look at who COULD have been in the Fellowship.

Its based on who was in rivendellor near (they wanited several months before they left), the council itself, and conversations between Elrond and Gandalf.

At the council itself ONLY Frodo and sam were actually selected to go. Bilbo offered to go there too but was rejected (so bilbo could have gone)

THe later converastions are between Elrond, gandalf, Aragon and the hobbits AFTER the council.

Aragorn tells Frodo that he and Boromir are going. Then its reveiled that KLegolas and Gimli are going. Gandalf had already told Frodo he was going.

For the last two slots Elrond suggests that two member of his HOUSEHOL could go. TO me that suggested he wanted his sons Elladan and Elrohir to go. They seem like logical candidates (they went to Lorein to carry word to Galadreil but came back later) 

Then Elrond and gandalf talk about the two hobbits and who should be in the last two slots. Gandalf tells Elrond that Glorfindal cant open the road to the fire with the power in him. So it was gandalf that suggests GLorfindal. Elrond still wants to send pippen back but gets overruled by Gandalf.

So it remains who could have gone ? I suggested some possibilities.

its mentioned that not only did elronds sons go to Lorien they also went to Rhosgoebel to find Radagast. SO I suggest that it was a possibility that radagast could have been in the fellowship.

Rangers assisted Aragorn in the search for the missing nazgul after the battle of the ford. So I also suggested that Halbarald had a chance to be in the fellowship.

All thats left is those at the council of elrond. We know Gimlis father Gloin was there. We know that Galdor of the havens messenger from Cirdan was there. 

There are other possibilities. Im sure it could be suggest that Faramir could have been in fellowship (remember that dream Boromir had ? Faramir had it first then again after Boromir. But boromir over ruled faramir and went.)

I guess it would be intriguing to consider other possibilites. Fatty bolger could have come also with hobbits. Suppose Dain had sent another Dwarf to carry message to Rivendell ? Could Boromir have picked up a travelling companion in Rohan ? What if Haldir had travelled back with the sons of elrond ?

This is all just fun speculation.


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## Meselyn (Aug 17, 2003)

Im looking at this from a different point of view than most of you are. Im looking at this like ok this and this happended, and not this and that. I think that Gandalf somehow ( i don't know how) knew that some members from elronds house shouldn't have come. I dunno that's the way I look at things.


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## Maeglin (Aug 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rangerdave _
> *Another thing that bothers me about sending Glorfindel to Mt Doom.
> 
> When Frodo, rejects his mission and declaires the Ring his own, and vows to keep it rather than destroy it. What then?
> ...



Well personally I think that would have been a great ending RD!! Then Glorfindel would be the hero and I could argue with everyone about it the way Yaygollum does now!! 

Anyway.....I think it would have been a good idea to send Glorfindel with the fellowship (now you're all going to call me biased towards my favorite, but hey, aren't we all?). If he had gone then it is likely Gandalf would not have fell in battle against the Balrog- Glorf had already killed one, so this one would probably be a piece of cake cause he has experience (and Gandalf at his side). Also, as far as the issue of stealth and speed goes, I don't think Glorf would have hurt it at all (that is, if the fellowship still broke as it did). He would have been a great help to the other members of the fellowship (especially at Helm's Deep and Pelennor Fields). 
However, if he went with Frodo and Sam I agree that he perhaps may have hurt the aspect of stealth, though the odds are slim. I say that the odds are slim because even though Glorfindel is a great Elf Lord, Sauron's eye would still be much more pre-occupied with the war in Rohan and the treachery of Saruman, and then of course Pippin's foolishness of looking into the Palantir, and Aragorn's distraction of revealing himself, and the battle for Minas Tirith!! Something just tells me that he'd be much more worried about that than just one elf. Even if he did notice Glorfindel, I don't think he would have cared because even one powerful elf can't do a whole lot against Sauron's armies. And don't forget that Sauron never would have thought that his enemies would try to destroy the ring, so the thought of Glorfindel entering Mordor with or without the ring probably never would have entered his mind. Even if it did, he would have assumed his great armies would have killed him before he could even come within ten feet of the gates.
Anyway, thats just my 2 cents.


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## Khôr’nagan (Sep 2, 2003)

I do think that Glorfindel would have been of more use on the journey, but without someone Frodo knew for all his life and trusted deeply, Frodo would not have had the will to carry on (at all). So, I'm just not sure... I can't decide which would have been better. I could argue both sides easily, and that means that there's just too many variables to predict (accurately).


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## meneldor (Sep 3, 2003)

lets remember here folks that much more in middle earth was being attacked. lorien alone was attacked 3 times, mirkwood and the battle of dale. If your elrond wouldnt you rather have glor with you in rivendell knowing that there is a good chance something might happen?


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## Arvedui (Sep 3, 2003)

There couldn't have been any better companion for Frodo on the way to Mt. Doom than Samwise.
None others could have given Frodo that friendship and support that Sam gave. In fact, anyone else but Sam would have been left behind where the Fellowship was broken near Amon Hen. Sam was the only one that Frodo really trusted, before the Ring got to him. And you can see remains of that deep trust even after Frodo is wearied by the Ring.


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## Huan the Hound (Sep 3, 2003)

*intentionality*

It is interesting to me that no one has talked about about JRRT in this discussion. I will solve this debate quickly: it didn't matter who Tolkien decided would go on the Fellowship, they were going to succeed as long as they represented the values that Tolkien believed in. Tolkien didn't want to write a story where Sauron ultimately won. Indeed, I am not sure he would have been in all good conscience even capable of this. We've got to keep in mind, ME isn't real. Tolkien created it, and had the power of God or Aman or whatever you will in creating its stories. 

Now it is not at all likely that the fellowship's purpose is ultimately accomplished. What I mean is if ME were a real place, on a real planet, and we know what facts we know when Frodo arrives at Rivendell, then my guess would be that Vegas bookies would set Frodo's odds of destroying the ring in Mt. Doom at about 20 to 1 against. Maybe even worse than that.

However, for the sake of fun, why don't we assume that Tolkien chose Glorfindel to go. Now, in my mind, this would mean Legolas was the clear candidate to get booted, and that Glorfindel would have assumed many of Legolas's characteristics and functions within the group. (IE, Glorfindel with your sharp eyes, what do you see?) 

However, let's say that Gandalf felt good about decision to have Pippin returned to the Shire, replaced by Glorfindel. What happens then?

Well, Pippin returns to the Shire and then most likely sets out to follow the fellowship, sad!

What else? Well, the party would still have probably chosen Moria as their path, because I can't see how Glorfindel would aid them in passing at the redhorn. 

(Quick note: in terms of a party of 15 elves from Lorien sent to Bolster Gondor: they wouldn't have any problem making it over the mountain because they can walk on top of the snow. But, why would Elrond do this? We have to remember, the Elves look out for themselves first. Why sacrifice themselves for the fate of men?)

So on to Moria. Pippin makes the racket that gets the orcs after them. Would they have been in as much danger if it had been Glorfindel there? Who knows? As far as battling the Balrog, first of all we have no idea whether this is or is not the same Glorfindel that fought the Balrog outside Gondolin, though I think it is far more likely that Tolkien would have made that argument clear by this time. But even if it is the same elf, who knows if he has the same powers after dying and being recycled? Who knows if this Balrog is as strong or stronger than the one Glorfindel part I killed? If Gandalf doesn't fall into the depths of Moria to fight this Balrog, then the powers that be in Aman will not allow him to return to ME with his full Mairi powers. If that's the case, perhaps things go much more poorly at Helm's Deep. Perhpas Aragorn gets killed- then the dead from the paths of the dead would never have aided in the battle. Who knows?

Moreover, if Glorfindel had been with the party when they were attacked by the orcs on the banks of the anduin, then I don't think that Merry on his own would have been taken captive by the orcs. Then the Ents don't pay as much heed to the troubles by Isengard, and they don't attack. That would have been bad news... If Gandalf isn't dead and reborn, then perhaps he hasn't had the chance to rile the ents up either. I mean, the victory of Sauron is filled with a thousand close calls, any of which if changed might result in total disaster.

But let's keep in mind, all of the problems I point out could be solved by a creative mind. And as Tolkien was creative and wanted the ring to be destroyed, we can only assume it certainly would have been, even if Tolkien had felt compelled to pick different characters for the fellowship.


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## Eriol (Sep 3, 2003)

Welcome, Huan 

I mostly agree, but I want to point out that the Elves did in fact sacrifice a lot for Men. They supported the background plan even knowing that their rings would be rendered unusable by it. Check Elrond and Galadriel's words about it, about how the destruction of the Ring means the end of the Dominion of Elves. They were aware of that, and even so decided to go for it.

Just a comment .


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## Maeglin (Sep 3, 2003)

I just feel the need to point out to you that it is very likely that this glorfindel is more powerful than the old Glorfindel...as it is said by Gandalf in LotR that Glorfindel exists in 2 worlds at once... the natural/phsyical as well as the wraith or spiritual.


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## Arvedui (Sep 4, 2003)

*Re: intentionality*



> _Originally posted by Huan the Hound _
> *It is interesting to me that no one has talked about about JRRT in this discussion. I will solve this debate quickly: it didn't matter who Tolkien decided would go on the Fellowship, they were going to succeed as long as they represented the values that Tolkien believed in. *


Ah, yes. Let us have a look at one of the things you have mentioned:
You mentioned The Fall of Gandalf in Moria, and the consequences that could occur if that didn't happen. I will try to look at it from a 'reversed angle.' As has been discussed elsewhere on TTF, the enhancement of Gandalf's powers were crucial because of the treachery of Saruman. Therefore, it was nescecarry (sp?) for Ilúvatar to bring him home for 'consultations.' The fight with the Balrog was just a fitting time to do so. If that hadn't happened, Gandalf would have been taken "home" somewhere else in the story.

The Wizards were sent to Middle-earth by the Valar with the purpose of helping the peoples of ME to get rid of Sauron. Saruman was their leader. When his treason was revealed, the good guys were in a rapidly deteriorating situation. Suddenly, two of the strongest Maiar were on the wrong side. Gandalf had to be promoted. Saruman had to be given a 'pink slip.'

BTW: this reasoning is my own. I haven't seen it presented anywhere else.

Welcome to the TTF Huan the Hound. Great first post


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## aragornlover (Sep 4, 2003)

*Would Glorfindel be a better companion for Frodo on the way to Mount Doom?*

Yeah, porbably. But aragorn would be really good to - he knows the way!!!!


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## robbie (Sep 6, 2003)

no,definatley not,making glorifendel frodo's companion instead of sam,is taking the "easy way out" yes it is true glorifindel has more power than sam,but to do so would kill the intention tolkien wanted for LOTR,the conflict of good vs evil showing up in the form of Weak vs strong.


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## Fingon (Sep 11, 2003)

I have always found it interesting that Tolkien decided not to have a member of Elrond's house or household go along on the quest, and that there was only one elf on the quest. It is also interesting that the only elf, Legolas, was of the Sindar. The Elven rings were created by the Noldor (who were the impetus behind creating the rings of power), and it was the Noldor that Sauron first attacked after he forged the ruling ring, and yet there was no Noldorian elf present on the quest to help destroy Sauron. Also the Noldorian exiles had been fighting against Sauron (when he served Morgoth), since their return to Middle Earth following the theft of the Silmarils.


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## Maeglin (Sep 18, 2003)

Perhaps Elrond was afraid that a Noldorian Elf would get delusions of grandeur and try to challenge Sauron to one on one combat, thereby giving away the whole quest and bringing certain doom upon Middle-Earth. Fingolfin tried to fight Morgoth after all, but lost, so perhaps this was not something they wanted to happen again.


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## Kahmûl (Sep 22, 2003)

Yeh and no. I think he would have been a better companian because he was stronger, a better fighter and didn't fear the things Sam did. But he would have been a worse companion because he wouldn't have cared for Frodo as much as Sam did and Glorfindel would have concentrated more on destroying the ring than saving Frodo.


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## Maeglin (Sep 22, 2003)

which was exactly the frame of mind he is supposed to have. Frodo knew he was probably going to die when he volunteered for the quest, so Glorfindel would certainly have worried more about destroying the ring, as that was the whole point. He would have thrown Frodo right into the fire if he had to, and then jumped in after him.


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