# Angry Angrod



## Confusticated (Jul 23, 2003)

> _ Published Silmarillion, Of The Noldor in Beleriand_
> 
> Then Finrod was greatly troubled, but he was silent, for he could not defend himself, save by bringing charges against the other princes of the Noldor; and that he was loath to do before Thingol. But in Angrod's heart the memory of the words of Caranthir welled up again in bitterness, and he cried: 'Lord, I know not what lies you have heard, nor whence; but we came not red-handed. Guiltless we came forth, save maybe of folly, to listen to the words of fell Feanor, and become as if besotted with wine, and as briefly. No evil did we do on our road, but suffered ourselves great wrong; and forgave it. For this we are named tale-bearers to you and treasonable to the Noldor; untruly as you know, for we have of our loyalty been silent before you, and thus earned your anger. But now these charges are no longer to be borne, and the truth you shall know.'
> Then Angrod spoke bitterly against the sons of Feanor, telling of the blood at Alqualonde, and the Doom of Mandos, and the burning of the ships at Losgar. and he cried: 'Wherefore should we that endured the Grinding Ice bear the Name of kinslayers and traitors?'



Do you think Angrod was right to say all of that?

Discussion has been slow lately, so just tossing some topics out.


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## Eledhwen (Jul 23, 2003)

It would have been reasonable to discuss it with Finrod first, but I expect he wasn't feeling reasonable. Angrod probably did not realise that news of the kinslaying had filtered through to Doriath ("the Sindar were yet unwary and trustful of words, and Morgoth chose them for this first assault of his malice") Thingol believed the rumours, and Angrod, caught unprepared by his hard words, got defensive.

Yet he was not wholly innocent. Those who set off with Feanor were all guilty by association, even if they did not take part in the kinslaying. Galadriel realised this, and had refused to speak of it; and so had Finrod. 

"Then the sons of Finarfin departed from Menegroth with heavy hearts, perceiving how the worlds of Mandos would ever be made true, and that none of the Noldor that followed after Feanor could escape from the shadow that lay upon his house."

Angrod should have thought first of repenting of his own rebellion and regretting its effects before spreading the dirt on Feanor, however deserved.


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## Gothmog (Jul 24, 2003)

Angrod was right to give his side of the the story of journey of the Noldor from Valinor. Although it may seem that he spoke without thought (and perhaps he did do so), Morgoth was already using the silence of the Noldor to cause division between the Noldor and the Teleri weakening both and hoping to cause war between them. Angrod's heart seems to be wiser then his head.

Had Angrod held his tounge at this point it is likely that far more evil would have come about. Thingol had heard about the kin-slaying and at that time thought that all the Noldor were party to it. Had he been allowed to continue with this belief there would have been little chance for anything other than war in Beleriand even with Morgoth and his army sitting back in Angband simply watching and laughing.

The greatest evil that could have come about through the kin-slaying would have been caused by the total estrangement of the Noldor and the Teleri. This was prevented by Angrod's rage and the tale he told of the journey after the burning of the ships and across the Grinding Ice. This helped to calm the rage of Thingol and allow him to see the malice of Melkor in the tales he had heard before.


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## Eriol (Jul 24, 2003)

Hmmm... yes, I think he was a tad too self-righteous there. Almost as if he had been "so loyal" as to "cover up" for the Feanorians.  It is not as if great good should come out of the telling of the truth; but surely his (and Galadriel's, and Finrod's) "loyalty" was not only obvious but also self-serving. There is no reason to be so proud of it.

The circumstances only conspired to make his own pride come forth, or this is how I view it. 

Of course they had less guilt than the Feanorians, but that does not make them "guiltless" by any means. The main problem I have with this scene is this attitude, of "innocence abused". He could surely have told the same tale in a less haughty manner. 

Perhaps he was just foolish, and believed in his own words. I never read anything about him being especially wise.


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## Confusticated (Jul 24, 2003)

Well, what were the sons of Finarfin guilty of aside from maybe folly of following Feanor? As Angrod says:

'Guiltless, save maybe of folly, to listen to the words of fell Feanor, and become as if besotted with wine, and as briefly'

I see nothing else to be guilty of.

Thought it is just my belief that Finrod did not enter Middle-earth out of folly, but out of wisdom.

What I wonder about, is why Finrod would not speak of it. Did he think that Thingol would start a war with the Feanoreans if he told? I doubt that was his reason, as keeping quiet made this no less likely, but more (as Gothmog said). Did he view at as a betrayal to the Noldor? I think he must have. But what else was he to do? 

If the sons of Finarfin did not tell Thingol, then Thingol would have heard more rumours and tales mixed with lies. I do not think Angrod spoke for those reasons though. 




> _By Gothmog_
> Had he been allowed to continue with this belief there would have been little chance for anything other than war in Beleriand even with Morgoth and his army sitting back in Angband simply watching and laughing.



The question for me becomes: Why was Finrod, wisest of the exiled Noldor, unwilling to tell Thingol the truth? 

I see nothing wrong with what Angrod said, even though he probably said for the wrong reasons.



> _ By Eriol_
> I never read anything about him being especially wise.



Well he was the son of Finarfin and brother of Finrod. There might have been some family resemblance other than golden hair. 

But yea, nothing is said of Angrod's level of wisdom. I guess we get to measure that as readers.

The closest thing to anything about it is: 'But at the rear went Finarfin and Finrod, and many of the noblest and wisest of the Noldor.' But we can't be sure Angrod was with them, he may well have been up with Fingon. And even if Angrod was with them, this does not mean he was among the most wise.


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## Eriol (Jul 24, 2003)

I think Finrod would tell Thingol, eventually; we know _he_, at least, was wise.  He was probably waiting for a better occasion, when Thingol's rage would be more under control. 

I think that everyone who did not speak against Fëanor in that day is guilty. Is it pardonable? Sure. Fëanor was a mighty speaker. It was not easy to oppose him, and it was very easy to be convinced by him. But this does not cancel out the guilt. Everyone who followed him, or that did not oppose his views, is guilty. And I think Finrod and Galadriel thought that way, too; and this is why THEY were not so haughty as Angrod. They saw their own responsibility in it (not delving into the "lone Galadriel + Celeborn from Aman" theory ).

I mostly agree with what you said: There was nothing wrong with the information Angrod relayed to Thingol, though there was something wrong in his reasons (pride, as I see it) and in his method and timing.


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## Confusticated (Jul 24, 2003)

> I think that everyone who did not speak against Fëanor in that day is guilty. Is it pardonable? Sure. Fëanor was a mighty speaker. It was not easy to oppose him, and it was very easy to be convinced by him. But this does not cancel out the guilt. Everyone who followed him, or that did not oppose his views, is guilty.



I don't see what you are saying they are guilty in that Angrod did not admit. Kinslaying?

And on which day, kinslaying or Feanor's speech in Tirion?

In Tirion Finrod did speak against Feanor, but Angrod did not.


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## Gil-Galad (Jul 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Eriol _
> *
> 
> I think that everyone who did not speak against Fëanor in that day is guilty. Is it pardonable? Sure. Fëanor was a mighty speaker. It was not easy to oppose him, and it was very easy to be convinced by him. But this does not cancel out the guilt. Everyone who followed him, or that did not oppose his views, is guilty. And I think Finrod and Galadriel thought that way, too; and this is why THEY were not so haughty as Angrod. They saw their own responsibility in it (not delving into the "lone Galadriel + Celeborn from Aman" theory ).
> ...


I agree with these words.
Yes ,Feanor was a mighty speaker,but does that give the rigt to anyone to be as silent as the night?No.Everyone who kept silence and did not oppose him should have done the same thing later.Everyone who spoke against Feanor later is nothing but an impudent person.


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## Eledhwen (Aug 1, 2003)

> _Eriol:_ I think that everyone who did not speak against Fëanor in that day is guilty. Is it pardonable? Sure. Fëanor was a mighty speaker. It was not easy to oppose him, and it was very easy to be convinced by him. But this does not cancel out the guilt. Everyone who followed him, or that did not oppose his views, is guilty.


 This has been the accepted view since the Nurenberg trials. For 'Fëanor' read 'Hitler' and it's more or less the verdict after WWII.


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## Inderjit S (Aug 3, 2003)

Angrod was right for several reasons in telling Elwe about the Kinslaying.

1. It dispelled many untrue Sindarin rumours that had been passed on by Morgoth through various agents. The Sindar were discomforted by these rumours and a lot of them believed them and this would have caused friction between the two parties.

2. Why should they suffer the shame of being branded slayers of their own kin, when they did nothing and it was the Feanorians who accomplished a lot of the evil deeds? Elwe was much revered, especially by the Finarfians them being related to him, and they would want to keep positive relations with him. 



> But yea, nothing is said of Angrod's level of wisdom. I guess we get to measure that as readers



Tolkien writes:



> Angrod son of Finarfin was the first of the exiles to come to Menegroth…..but being true and wise-hearted, and thinking all grief’s now forgiven, he spoke no word concerning the kinslaying


 _Of the Return of the Ñoldor_ 

So, we can see that he was a wise Elf, and kind as were all of the children of Finarfin, who are always depicted as wise, though it is odd, that in the Shibboleth of Feanor the other children of Finarfin, Galadriel and Aegnor are all at one time said to be wise-hearted or a variation on that, whilst all that is said about Angrod is that he had strong, iron-like hinds. 



> In Tirion Finrod did speak against Feanor, but Angrod did not


He was only siding with Turgon and Fingolfin, he probably played a small role in speaking against Feanor. At the bottom of the paragraph, we read “but these held their peace and spoke not against their fathers” Finrod seems to be amongst these, and the only ones who spoke were Turgon and Fingolfin and Finarfin who tried to dissuade the Ñoldor, whilst if Finrod would have spoke with the same potency against Feanor as Fingolfin and Turgon he would have been pretty much rebelling against his father, plus we hear that they came close to fighting-do you really think Finrod would actively support this? 



> Yes ,Feanor was a mighty speaker,but does that give the rigt to anyone to be as silent as the night?No.Everyone who kept silence and did not oppose him should have done the same thing later.Everyone who spoke against Feanor later is nothing but an impudent person.



They only spoke against him after he and his sons swore the terrible oath, that no elf should ever swear, or no one for that fact, it was a terrible deed.


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## Confusticated (Aug 3, 2003)

About Finrod speaking against Feanor, I guess it doesn't state that he did, but it has been my interpretation.

The line 'But these held their peace and spoke not against their fathers.' is something that I have taken to refer to Angrod, Aegnor, and Fingon and perhaps Galadriel.

I do not agree that Finrod would have been rebelling against Finarfin if he was speaking with Turgon. Finarfin tried to get people to take some thought before they rushed off and did anything stupid, and if Finrod spoke with Turgon then he would have been doing much the same as his father, trying to stop the Noldor from rushing off under Feanor. My interpretation is that Finrod and Finarfin were of similar mind, but Finarfin tried to calm and Finrod spoke against. Just different approaches.

As for wrath coming near the edge of swords, that can happen among any group when Feanor is involved. But even if Fingolfin pulled his sword out, itdoesn't mean Finrod did. It doesn't mean he supported it at all. I doubt even Turgon would support it. It's Feanor and sons, no doubt.

But I guess it doesn't really matter here to me if Finrod spoke against Feanor or not, because I disagree with Eriol that the children of Finarfin had anything to be guilty about that Angrod did not admit to.


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## Ancalagon (Aug 3, 2003)

Nóm, what an excellent question! It is good to see all the best questions haven't been wasted on the tournament

I will pop back soon with a hearty reply if you don't mind!


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## Beleg (Aug 4, 2003)

> *Posted by Gil-galad*
> Everyone who kept silence and did not oppose him should have done the same thing later.


Not necessarily. It only means that 'at that occasion' they didn't feel the need to rectify him. They are fully entitled to do that at another occasion if they wish so. 


> *Posted by Eriol*
> It is not as if great good should come out of the telling of the truth


But it did come. As Inderjit mentioned, it helped to stem the rumors that were spreading among the Sindar. 
The termination of a possible clash between Sindar and Noldor was a great good in my opinion. 
I believe that Angrod was correct in telling Thingol about all that had happened previously.


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## Eriol (Aug 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow _
> *
> The termination of a possible clash between Sindar and Noldor was a great good in my opinion.
> *



Agreed; and this is why I said that the information should have been passed on to Thingol. My quarrel is with Angrod's methods and motives, not with his deed. If he had not done it I'm sure Finrod or Galadriel would; in a much better way.

Surely a good deed may be done for bad reasons, or in a bad way. That's how I see this matter.


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## Gothmog (Aug 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Eriol _
> *Agreed; and this is why I said that the information should have been passed on to Thingol. My quarrel is with Angrod's methods and motives, not with his deed. If he had not done it I'm sure Finrod or Galadriel would; in a much better way.
> 
> Surely a good deed may be done for bad reasons, or in a bad way. That's how I see this matter. *


 The only better way for Finrod or Galadriel to have given this information to Thingol was (a) to do so *Before* Thingol heard Melkor's version of the facts or (b) for one of them to tell their side in a calm manner as soon as Thingol heard these stories. Since neither of these occured it was left to Angrod to do what was right even if for less than noble reasons.

As I have said previously, Angrod's Heart seems to have beeen wiser than his Head.


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## Eriol (Aug 4, 2003)

Well, as I don't have the wisdom of either Finrod or Galadriel, I'm not sure that these are the _only_ ways to do it better.



When I read that passage I get the feeling that if Angrod had not spoken, Finrod would do so in a moment; that Finrod was biding his time while Thingol was angry. I'll have to reread that to check whether this is a weird notion or it has some grounding in the words. But anyway, when I spoke of "a better way" I was not only referring to methods, but to motive as well; and in my opinion Angrod's motive was a kind of self-righteousness that was uncalled for. He really acted as if he was a saint or something, to bear the weight of the secret for all this time "just to protect the Feanorians"... He was certainly not "trying to prevent a clash between the Sindar and the Noldor"; or so it seems to me. 

That his misguided pride resulted in the prevention of this clash is a good and unexpected (for him) side effect of his goal in that action: to save face and come out "in the clean".


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## Gothmog (Aug 4, 2003)

> Then Finrod was greatly troubled, but he was silent, for he could not defend himself, save by bringing charges against the other princes of the Noldor; *and that he was loath to do before Thingol.*


 Eriol, Thingol had heard the stories put out by Melkor and was berating Finrod and Angrod. This allowed to continue could have Very quickly turned very nasty. It needed to be headed off in the shortest possible time. Yes Finrod could have done a far better job of it. However, Finrod was "Loath" to bring charges against the other princes of the Noldor before Thingol.

Had he waited for that "Better" time he would have lost possibly the Only time that could prevent tragedy. While I do not defend the motives of Angrod, I still say that he was right not only to speak up at that point but to say all that he did. It deflected Thingol's anger and allowed him to think of how to deal with the problem.


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## Eriol (Aug 4, 2003)

Is not "loath" the same as "reluctant"? I'm not sure about that, but this is how I always read this passage. If Finrod was reluctant, this does not mean that he will not ever do it... does it?



My views are these:

Angrod did it for selfish and wrong reasons;

I agree that it worked for the best;

I don't know if it _could_ have worked as well if Angrod had not done what he did; I don't know what Finrod (and Galadriel, let's not forget her) were up to. They're wise but not perfect. They could have simply goofed up. 

However, if they were biding his time and were preparing to talk with Thingol after he (Thingol) calmed down, I see no reason why the effects of the action could not have been as good as Angrod's outburst.

I don't think that Thingol would make any hasty decisions (do I sound like Treebeard? ) in that matter if the sons of Finarfin had kept quiet for a while at that exact moment; Thingol was a wise elf himself, and he had Melian as an advisor. I don't think it was an issue that had to be decided at that precise moment.

All in all, I think we agree in mostly everything, Gothmog .


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## Gothmog (Aug 5, 2003)

Yes I believe I are in agreement on the important points. Angrod's Timing was right although his motives were not.

I also agree that Finrod and Gladriel would have done a better job had they chosen to do so.

What disagreements we have are only due to not knowing just when Finrod or Galadriel would have tried to explain.


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## Confusticated (Aug 5, 2003)

It looks like most everyone agrees here. No fun, huh? 

Yes, Ancalagon I would like to know your views.

PS: Eriol, Galadriel can hardly be compared to Finrod greatest King, and all around best elf in the history of Middle-earth.


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## Eriol (Aug 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Nóm _
> *PS: Eriol, Galadriel can hardly be compared to Finrod greatest King, and all around best elf in the history of Middle-earth.  *



I can think of at least three reasons why Galadriel is better than Finrod:

She was prettier;

Her hair was the color of Laurelin and Telperion;

She annoyed Fëanor .


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## Beleg (Aug 6, 2003)

Finrod is better then Galadriel because, 

1. Finrod was wiser then her. 
2. Finrod had a greater sense of Kinship then her.
3. Finrod met Men and befriended them. 
4. Finrod was a bachelor.


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## Ancalagon (Aug 6, 2003)

I disagree. Angrod's timing was incorrect, nor were his motives true, neither were the motives of any who forsook Aman, took part in the Kinslaying without repenting or who stood among the Noldor and swore an oath to pursue Melkor and retrieve the Silmarils. 

Angrods piety echoes the feeling of resentment borne by the House of Fingolfin and the greater part of the Noldor who took the path of The Grinding Ice, yet consider this; Fingolfin and those with him expected the return of the ships to bear them away from Aman. They chose not to return to the Valar to seek forgiveness for their actions, because of fear and because they were still driven by the words of Fëanor. Had Feanor actually sent back ships to secure their passage would such bitterness and resentment have led Angrod's outburst? Everyone of the Noldor who had chosen to remain silent in the face of ther actions bore as much guilt as any who had slain their kin at Aqualonde. Fingolfins journey became one of desperation and in part revenge, yet the decision to go forward ensured the burden of guilt remain steadfast upon their heads. Yet, in the face of Thingol and Melian the truth should have been revealed.

It is my belief, that any one of the Noldor should have spoken true before Thingol and Melian when first they came before them and represented their people. None were ignorant of the curse upon them, nor were they free of the Doom of Mandos, which they knew full well would be visited upon any with whom they consorted.


> To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass. The Silmarillion


 Choosing to remain silent in the face of Thingol, brethern and friend of Olwë was shameful, that somehow they might keep hidden the truth of their actions. Angrod should have spoken sooner and sought to petition Thingol and Melian, no matter whether Fingolfin and Maedhros found unity and peace between the Houses seemed secured. Their duty was to suffer their guilt and reveal the truth, rather than hide it in shame before Thingol and Melian.


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## Inderjit S (Aug 7, 2003)

> Finrod is better then Galadriel because



Finrod was prettier too. 



> It is my belief, that any one of the Noldor should have spoken true before Thingol and Melian when first they came before them and represented their people



Which of the Noldor would tell him exactly? Only the Finarfians went or were allowed to Doriath. 



> Now King Thingol welcomed not with a full heart the coming of so many princes in might out of the West, eager for new realms; and he would not open his kingdom, nor remove its girdle of enchantment, for wise with the wisdom of Melian he trusted not that the restraint of Morgoth would endure. Alone of the princes of the Noldor those of Finarfin's house were suffered to pass within the confines of Doriath; for they could claim close kinship with King Thingol himself, since their mother was Eärwen of Alqualondë, Olwë's daughter


_Of The Return of the Noldor; Published Silmarillion_ 

Later on we read;



> Angrod son of Finarfin was the first of the Exiles to come to Menegroth, as messenger of his brother Finrod, and he spoke long with the King, telling him of the deeds of the Noldor in the north, and of their numbers, and of the ordering of their force; but being true, and wisehearted, and thinking all griefs now forgiven, he spoke no word concerning the kinslaying, nor of the manner of the exile of the Noldor and the oath of Fëanor.



I think that Angrod's thoughts may have echoed those of the whole Noldors, that old griefs shouldnt be brought up and laid to rest.


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