# When Melkor corrupt life what happen?



## Beren Erchanion (Dec 5, 2001)

When peoples get corrupt by Melkor and change of life form(Ex. from Elf to Orc) what really happen to them. Did they got memories of their ancient life form and return to it when they die? Or they'll stay the Melkor's child (or toy depend of your point of view )forever even afther death? Matbe it's something else I just wonder if if Tolkien ever answer to that question...otherwise what do you think?


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## Ancalagon (Dec 5, 2001)

Just as I have spent a few hours preparing my last answer to one of your threads you come up with this. Phewwww, well, back to my books.


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## Beren Erchanion (Dec 5, 2001)

LoL!  I'm waiting your answer with excitement Ancalagon


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## Grond (Dec 6, 2001)

Like Ancalagon, I will have to hit the books. Can't vote nor comment..... yet.


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## Telchar (Dec 6, 2001)

Morgoth can not create life so no living beeing can be said to be a child of Melkor the Morgoth.. On the other side he has created new spicies by changeing the existing Children of Iluvatar..


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## Ancalagon (Dec 10, 2001)

Ok, this is another tough one. A little like 'can the ring think?'
What have we got here? 

What happens to Elves that have been captured by Morgoth, tortured, twisted and corrupted beyond recognition? 

What happens to their spirits when they die and do they get a reprieve by Mandos, because Morgoth corrupted them? 

Do their souls remain in the captivity of Morgoth even after death? 
I think that is pretty much what you seek answers for!

Ok, I am going to try and give a fairly reasoned response to this, though I imagine my friends and colleagues on the board will seek to offer their own opinions at a later date. I can say now, with some confidence that it is mostly impossible to answer, so I will only offer my personal opinion based on the knowledge I have and I can say my knowledge is tested by the questions.

First things first, I believe it is important to look upon this in the context of Tolkiens creation and not with a Christian, Jewish or other religion view of life after death, heaven and hell perspective. 

That said, lets look at the first question; 
What happens to Elves that have been captured by Morgoth, tortured, twisted and corrupted beyond recognition? 

The Sil makes the first reference to their ensnarement in the 'Coming of Elves'. 



> 'But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty. For who of those living has descended into the pits of Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the councils of Melkor? Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressea, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom afterwards they were the bitterest of foes. For Orcs had life and multiplied after the Children of Iluvatar; and naught had life of its own, nor the semblance of life, could Melkor ever make since his rebellion in the Ainulidale before the beginning: so say the wise. And Deep in their dark hearts the Orcs loathed their Master whom they served in fear, the maker only of their misery.



This pretty much answers the first question, and possibly goes some way to answering the others. Personally, I feel one of the most important points in this quote is that relating to their reproduction. I imagine that Tolkiens vision of birth, was similar to that of Elven and Human reproduction. The reason for this is simple; each of these races could interbreed. Human and Elven could conceive, therefore, Orcs by definition could also. This would account for their rapid growth within Middle-Earth at this time. So, no sign of them hatching from pods!!!


What happens to their spirits when they die and do they get a reprieve by Mandos, because Morgoth corrupted them? 

There is no right or wrong answer to this, for we only understand what the Silmarillion tells us of the Keeper of the Dead, Mandos.



> He is the Keeper of the Houses of the Dead, and the summoner of the spirits of the slain. He forgets nothing; and he knows all things that shall be, save only those that lie still in the freedom of Iluvatar. He is the Doomsman of the Valar; but he pronounces his dooms and his judgements only at the bidding of Manwe.



However, this is where I become stuck. For other than references to both Men and Elves regarding their fate in the hands of both Iluvatar and Mandos, I cannot find reference to the fate of orcs. Even in The Shaping Of Middle Earth (Book 4, HOME), earliest writings by the author do not specify orcish fate. I can only imagine that their souls were given to the mercy of Mandos, who knew all of their origin and creation. This however does not rest so easy on me, for I fear that their fate was much worse than the passing fancy of the Valar. They too, may have been souls cast for eternity into the void, after the fashion of the demise of Morgoth. Who knows? Answers on a postcard please!

That sort of leads on to the final question;

Do their souls remain in the captivity of Morgoth even after death? Well, as Morgoth is not the keeper of the dead of the Valar, one can assume that they do not. However, Middle-Earth itself is riddled with the spirits of the dead, of whom none have yet gone to these Halls. Does this mean they are unwelcome? or does it mean they choose not too, for they seek redemption of their master, Morgoth, of whom they cannot ask? Remember, this is not a Christian perspective.
I personally feel that Orcs may be returned to Mandos after death, for they are still creations from the firstborn and therefore still known to Mandos in the depth of the souls.

Without researching this for months, this is the best answer I can offer to these questions, particularly 2 and 3.


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## Courtney (Dec 15, 2001)

I hope the captured elves get to go to the Hall of Mandos when they die. That would be worse than anything else if they didn't.


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## Beren Erchanion (Dec 25, 2001)

Thank you everybody you help me to support another thread about the first born. It was suggesting that Balrogs were the real first born because traped in their flesh they are the only creature to walked on Arda's surface because they are no more maiar, Melkor corrupt them so far that they reborn under the Balrogs form. It seems that everybody vote for the 2nd choice ( corrupted life remain Melkor's child forever) that would mean that a balrogs do not remember that he was Maïar before, so Balrogs are a brand new creature it's not a Maïar under the appearence of a Balrogs. One last question did the balrogs change themselves or they've been changed by Melkor ? Because I always thought that was a creation of the Mightest Valar.


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## Gloer (Dec 26, 2001)

*Balrog is a spirit of fire*

Balrog is something like a personification of a vulcanous earth. When the lands were created earth was not stable and the balrogs were those Maiar that helped to shape it. I pressume Melkor seduced them to embrace their own powers. And they ceased to shape the earth according to the theme's of Iluvatar.


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## Moonbeams (Dec 26, 2001)

If almost everybody end up in Hall of Mandos when they die, it would be somehow logical that orcs do as well. Ultimately, they are not Morgoths ceration, but Iluvatars, so Morgoth might have power over them in life, but I never read that he has any power over the souls of the dead. 
I belive that the first breed of orcs might have had some memory of their elven nature, therefore it was possible for them to remember who they were before Morgoth twisted them. Maybe they actualy found peace in Hall of Mandos. I'd like to think so, the poor creatures. It realy wasn't their fault, when you think about it. Why would they suffer for what he has done to them?
But for the next generations, who were really a new breed of creatures, with no elven nature left in them, could it be that their very soul was twisted by Morgoth, now not being elven in nature at all anymore, but Morgoths in nature? I belive it was so, and that the rest of them found no redemption.


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## Courtney (Dec 26, 2001)

i think the orcs probably do go to the Hall of Mandos, because that would be really awful if they didn't. I don't think Illuvatar would be that cruel.


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## syongstar (Dec 29, 2001)

*change*

the only constant is change


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