# Was the Council of Elrond a Farce?



## Gothmog (Apr 29, 2002)

Much has been said of the decisions made at the council of Elrond as to those who were to make up the Fellowship of the Ring. However, there was only TWO persons selected at this Great and Wonderous Event. Frodo to carry the Ring and Sam to accompany him. Basicaly it was nothing more than a Talking-shop that served little purpose other than to allow certain people to entertain the rest, Elrond with his Brief History of Time, Gandalf and his Great Escape Ect.

The Decisions about Who would go on the Quest of the Ring were made by Elrond alone some time after the council had talked itself to sleep. It was Elrond who choose Aragorn, Boromir, Legolas and Gimli. Gandalf decided to go himself. Elrond then wanted to have some others from his house to fill the last two places but was persuaded otherwise by Gandalf.

So it seems that the entire Council was a complete waste of time and Elrond would have done better by writing some names on a wall and choosing the companions of Frodo and Sam by throwing darts at the list. After all Elrond seemed to have some idea of the type of people that would be needed on the quest yet, when he allowed someone else to have a say all of his vaunted Wisdom vanished and we ended up with an extra pair of Half-pint wooly-footed Clowns.


----------



## Beorn (Apr 29, 2002)

But remember Gothmog that much of the CoE was the biography of the Ring. Also, Elrond wouldn't have been able to meet the members, intermingled with others. ALSO, the decision was made to send the ring to Mt. Doom, not to cast it into the ocean, or send it to Valinor.


----------



## Gothmog (Apr 29, 2002)

Yes and if it had been left entirely to Elrond it would have probably worked out better since he decided where it was to go realy. So the council was a waste of time he could have just as easily looked the candidates over as they arived.


----------



## Goldberry (Apr 29, 2002)

Yes, but did you ever read the comic strip "Dilbert"? That's what managers are best at, having long, useless meetings so they can hear themselves talk and waste everyone's time. Elrond just fits the corporate manager mold.


----------



## Grond (Apr 29, 2002)

The Council of Elrond had only one main purpose and that was to decide exactly what was to be done with the Ring of Power. Much information was provided among the members of the Council in coming to that decision and that decision was not final until first Bilbo and then Frodo accepted the quest to destroy the Ring. Elrond was pushing the events towards a certain path but he couldn't force anyone to take on the quest. He used the unfolding information of the Council to enforce the need and desire to destroy the Ring in young Frodo. 

Once that decision was made, the rest of the selection was just so much window dressing. The quest was laid upon Frodo and no one else. Most of the members didn't even agree to go to Mordor. (Gimli and Legolas only guaranteed their company until they reached the mountains and Aragorn and Boromir were both bound for Gondor.


----------



## Telchar (Apr 30, 2002)

I dissagree with you at one point Grond.. Aragorn was not bound for Gondor as you said. IIRC Boromir tried to convince him to come to Gondor with him, but Aragorn said that he went were the pathe lead him. (IIRC) He's main concern was Frodo and the Ring, and I belive if the Fellowship hadn't been dissolved he would have gone as far as he could with Frodo and Sam.


----------



## Legolam (Apr 30, 2002)

The CoE wasn't just about choosing people for the quest. If I remember rightly, at the start of the council there wasn't even a quest to go on. They decided what to do with the ring (as Grond just said) at the council.

There was also a lot of "information sharing" at the council which allowed decisions like not going near Isengard to be taken. Many people wouldn't have known about the treason of Saruman and continued to trust him if it hadn't been for the council.

Plus, it allows us as readers to understand more about the War of the Ring and the characters involved in it.


----------



## Anarchist (Apr 30, 2002)

I see what you mean Gothmog. But I don't quite agree. You see, in the council, some presentatives of all the "good" races had the chance to be informed of the facts and give information to the other races. I agree that the decition where actually taken from Elrond, but after taking information from the other races. The decition would not be the same if the council was not made.


----------



## Ancalagon (Apr 30, 2002)

Why I wonder, was more time not set aside to discuss diversionary tactics? Why was it not agreed that all races would begin to cause disquiet, tactical deflective attacks upon both Sauron's and Sarumans forces? Why was it not agreed by all the leaders of the races of Middle-Earth who were allies, to collectively seek to draw attention away from the journey of the Fellowship? 
Why; because they were not represented at a meeting which effectively decided the fate of all Men, Elves and Dwarves. Of course they were represented in as much as members of their races were present, though not leaders and decision makers. Nothing, no actual plan was formulated save that of sending the ring to the fire. No plans on how to gain entry to Mordor, no discussion as to which roads would be taken, no Plan B.
How exactly were the Fellowship planning to get the ring to Oroduin? Why had Gandalf not explained this, if not to the Fellowship, then at least to Aragorn?



> We have not decided our course,' said Aragorn. 'Beyond Lothlurien I do
> not know what Gandalf intended to do. Indeed I do not think that even he had any clear purpose.'



This in itself is poor planning, for when Gandalf met his demise upon Durin's Stair, the Fellowship was left ignorant of any plans he might have had. 

The Council of Elrond, was simply a history lesson, out of which came an objective, with no planning, or decisive, practical leadership. All that and the baggage of two clowns. Otherwise known as a Farce.


----------



## Gabriel (Apr 30, 2002)

I think there was another more subtle reason for the Council. Both Elrond and Gandalf wanted to "force" Frodo into accepting his mission to "bring the ring to the fire". 
They knew that he was the right choice because he had the power to resist the temptations of the ring, and they put pressure on him showing him all these people from different races and all the history of the ring.
Maybe Gandalf also decided to bring Merry and Pipino to raise up a little the moral of the ringbearer, so that he would not feel alone very soon. (obviously he couldn't foretell that Frodo would try to leave the Fellowship)
I think that after Frodo decided to be the ringbearer everything was settled quite easily by Elrond and Gandalf.


----------



## Elanor2 (Apr 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Telchar _
> *I dissagree with you at one point Grond.. Aragorn was not bound for Gondor as you said. IIRC Boromir tried to convince him to come to Gondor with him, but Aragorn said that he went were the pathe lead him. (IIRC) He's main concern was Frodo and the Ring, and I belive if the Fellowship hadn't been dissolved he would have gone as far as he could with Frodo and Sam. *



Telchar,

I think Aragorn says clearly at the Council of Elrond that he and the sword that was broken would go to Gondor, were his people needed him. He only hesitated after Gandalf's fall in Moria, when Frodo and Sam lost their original guide.

Do you have additional information?


----------



## Goro Shimura (Apr 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ancalagon _
> *The Council of Elrond, was simply a history lesson, out of which came an objective, with no planning, or decisive, practical leadership. All that and the baggage of two clowns. Otherwise known as a Farce. *


No... they didn't have a "war room" with "the big board" and everything.

Those that attended the Counsel of Elrond were summoned by a higher power.

Providence had devised an incredible opportunity to put an end to a great evil.

Individual strategies and plans were not near so important at COE as:

a) Whether or not Frodo would accept his divine "appointment"

b) Whether or not the Free peoples of the world would cooperate with a strategy that involved putting a great deal of trust in providence (rather than trusting, say, merely in the military power of Minas Tirith, or attempting to put off dealing with this problem and leaving it to another generation....)


----------



## Ancalagon (Apr 30, 2002)

> higher power


 and


> divine "appointment"


 or


> Providence



Guroshima my friend, I would be disappointed if there were not some way you could angle the influence of the Almighty in these actions. However, bar Gandalf saying he was 'meant to find it', there is no other relevance or even reference to any interjection by Iluvatar. Only Boromir dreamt a strange dream whereby he learnt first of the Halfling. Of course we all know who planted the dream in his mind.........that's right, Lorien, the non-christian, non-conformist Master of Dreams of the Valar.


----------



## Grond (Apr 30, 2002)

I would tend to disagree just a wee bit with you Ancalagon. The Council of Elrond is wrought with instances of Elrond making "prophetic statements" such as "I think this task is appointed to you, Frodo." and the like. I seem to remember something to the effect of, "it is the time of the little people" or some such. Again, I am bereft of my books and can't quote the exact words. 

The entire work, from the Quest of Erebor to the finding of the One Ring to it's ultimate destruction in the RotK is filled with inferences of divine intervention and divine guidance. If you fail to see it, Ancalagon, you are simply not looking for it. 

I have been extremely lazy the last few nights. I owe Ulari numerous quotes on two other threads... but when I catch up, I will come back here and provide you with a plethora of examples. Hope you're up for it.


----------



## Camille (Apr 30, 2002)

for me the council of Elrond was not useful no make a great plan, but to provide the escenarie to make Frodo undestand his future task, and a lot of information and history class also, but eventought there were not all the leader of the races involved I do not agree it was a farse: there was no time to send them messengers (Boromir needed 100 days if I remember well to go to Rivendell) How many time they will waste waiting for an anserw from Denethor for example? Sauron knew that the ring was in rivendell and the ringwraith were out looking for it, so they had to be quick, and the all of them trusted Gandalf.


----------



## Gothmog (Apr 30, 2002)

Basicaly Elrond told them that the Ring had to go into the Fire. Aragorn Knew this from the history of his people. Gandalf knew this also. Boromir went to get his dream-reading. Legolas went to tell them that the Wood-Elves Failed to keep Gollum. Gloin and co. went to warn Bilbo and ask advice of Elrond. All that was needed was to persuade Frodo to take the Ring to Mount Doom, this could have been done by Elrond and Gandalf without the bother of the Coulcil.

As for the Fellowship. Other than Frodo, Sam and Gandalf, the others were to start off, going home. Gimli and Legolas were to go with them at least as far as the Passes of the mountains, sounds like the way home. Aragorn and Boromir were heading to the wars of Minas Tirith, going further but not to Mordor. As for the other two it would have depended on who was selected where they would be going and what they would be there to do.

So Elrond could have just selected the fellowship and told them to get on with it without wasting time on the entertainment. perhaps that way the comic relief would have been left behind.


----------



## Camille (Apr 30, 2002)

so why not letting know to the involved what was happening? Legolas, gimli, Boromir and all of them did not know the whole history, so if anyway they will be chosen to be in the company, they at least have to know the risk of going with the ringbearer, The meeting was good for that.


----------



## Gothmog (Apr 30, 2002)

They could have used a small room 10 chairs and a pot of tea and just talked to the ones selected for the stroll.


----------



## Beorn (Apr 30, 2002)

> ...Only after hearing the debate and realizing the nature of the quest did Frodo accept the burden of his mission.



Letters, #183

....

A key thing is that the reader also needs to know the history of the ring! Only in CoE is the full tale told.

It would be considered a farce if didn't do anything in terms of the story. It set up the history behind the ring, which I just said, in addition to it's main point: decide what to do with the ring.







> Pipino


Hehehe...I guess that's how Pippin translates into Italian. Funny 'cause -ino is the Italian suffix for small or little...


----------



## Gothmog (Apr 30, 2002)

It's only point was the give the History of the Ring. Elrond had already decided what had to be done. So The council was not needed. As for it use to the readers, that is not the issue, the history could have been given in a number of ways including talking to just the ones selected for the fellowship.


----------



## Elanor2 (Apr 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goroshimura _
> a) Whether or not Frodo would accept his divine "appointment"
> b) Whether or not the Free peoples of the world would cooperate with a strategy that involved putting a great deal of trust in providence (rather than trusting, say, merely in the military power of Minas Tirith, or attempting to put off dealing with this problem and leaving it to another generation....)



I think Goro has a point here.

a) Frodo had to take the task on his own, without persuasion from Gandalf and Elrond, and with a clear undestanding of the alternatives. Frodo needed the council of Elrond to help him decide.

b) The "free people" had to be involved. The council, and afterwards the fellowship, represent all those who still confront Sauron. It is not by chance that there are representatives of all free people there. Also remember that people like Thranduil or Dain needed to get the update, or they might blunder. Their part is just almost a footnote at the end of ROTK, but they did great battling Sauron and saved the North at the end.


----------



## Goro Shimura (Apr 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ancalagon _
> * I would be disappointed if there were not some way you could angle the influence of the Almighty in these actions. However, bar Gandalf saying he was 'meant to find it', there is no other relevance or even reference to any interjection by Iluvatar. *


"You may be sure that it was not for any merit that others do not possess: not for power or wisdom, at any rate. _But you have been chosen,_ and you must therefore use such strength and heart and wits as you have." -- Gandalf

"_In this meeting there may be more than chance,_ but the purpose is not clear to me, and I fear to say too much." -- Gildor

"Just chance brought me then, _if chance you call it._ It was no plan of mine, though I was waiting for you." -- Tom Bombadil

"That is the purpose for which you are called hither. Called, I say, though I have not called you to me, strangers from distant lands. You have come and are here met, in this very nick of time, _by chance as it may seem._ Yet it is not so. _Believe so that it is so ordered_ that we, who sit here, and none others, must now find counsel for the peril of the world." -- Elrond

"If I understand aright all that I have heard, _I think that this task is appointed for you,_ Frodo; and that if you do not find a way, no one will." --Elrond

"It was not in vain that the young hobbits came with us, if only for Boromir's sake. _But that is not the only part they have to play._" -- Aragorn 

"You have been saved, and all your friends too, mainly by good fortune _as it is called._" -- Gandalf


----------



## Goro Shimura (Apr 30, 2002)

So why do I keep playing the "providence card?"

It's the only way to defend Tolkien when these sorts of threads pop up:

Was the Council of Elrond a Farce?
Was Gandalf a Machiavellian proponent of Realpolitic?
Did Aragorn make a stupid decision at Parth Galen?
Aren't the odds of event x happening exceedingly slim?

These sorts of arguments tend to be brought up with some sort of macho "I'm a realist" attitude-- with maybe also a heaping insinuation that Tolkien merely was a hack that wrote scenes in certain ways just to make the plot work out.

My personal opinion is that such insinuations are rooted in a combination of:

a) ignorance of the more subtle (yet persistent) themes of Tolkien's work 
b) a tacit rejection of the most basic axioms that underlie the world of middle earth

The notion of Providence is the underlying theme that causes the work to cohere. Read the work with a cynical Postmodernist frame of mind, and you'll probably have the same sort of response as a certain reviewer from _The Nation._ (In which case, you may prefer discussing Star Trek or The Fountainhead or something....)


----------



## Ancalagon (Apr 30, 2002)

Please forgive my ignorance of Tolkiens work, little did I know that all these years I was simply playing up my machismo. That is a constant battle I have daily and one day I may venture out of my blinkered closet.



> a) ignorance of the more subtle (yet persistent) themes of Tolkien's work





> b) a tacit rejection of the most basic axioms that underlie the world of middle earth



Once again I fear that I have missed the plot entirely so I would ask you Goroshima to elaborate and define the underlying tone and subtleness of Tolkiens work that has clearly escaped me.

Though I will make this clear before we enter deeper into this debate; when I describe devine intervention, it is solely for the purpose of defining that which is the hand of Iluvatar (which you attribute to being the 'One God' equivalent) and that which may be guided by the Valar (whom I consider the true powers of Arda) themselves. The difference is succinct, meaning that all the quotes you have so generously provided do not suggest that any aspect of intervention can be directly accorded to Iluvatar himself. So I will state this with clarity; my interpretation of devine intervention is solely through the power and thoughts of the Valar, who were the powers within Arda.



> But this condition Ilúvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs. And therefore they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.



So, before one begins to quote those 'mysterious ways', one must consider the autonomy of Arda. This of course rests in the hands of the Valar. 

May I also point out Goroshima, that I was not trying to belittle or demean your arguement, for we have covered this ground often, and I will inherently disagree with you........until you finally convince me


----------



## Goro Shimura (Apr 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ancalagon_
> *The Council of Elrond, was simply a history lesson, out of which came an objective, with no planning, or decisive, practical leadership. All that and the baggage of two clowns. Otherwise known as a Farce.*


Do you still hold to this opinion even after examining the significance of the Providential themes of the chapter?

(For now it makes no difference to me whether it was Iluvatar or the Valar-- either way the theme of higher spiritual powers intervening in history is still being asserted here. Concurrently with that is the balancing theme of Free Will-- in that the _Free Peoples_ can choose to cooperate with the Providential forces OR go their own way. I don't think such a scene can be considered a farce unless you bring a tacit assumption with you to the book that determining your response to the hand of "Providence" is something only for sissies and simpletons to be doing.)


----------



## Grond (Apr 30, 2002)

Why Ancalagon? He provided you with the very quotes I would have. If Tolkien was not providing us to the greatest clue that the will of Eru had indeed entered into the mix, I don't know what he was doing. Every indication is that chance/fate/pre-destination was working overtime. How does your great intellect interpret Tokien's inferences through the voices of his characters?


----------



## Ancalagon (Apr 30, 2002)

Ok Grond, read my post and my reasoning that none of these quotes can be directly attributed to Eru, yet more likely they can be attributed to the Valar. Once you have done your homework come back and I'll mark it for you!


----------



## Camille (Apr 30, 2002)

I agree with Goroshimura there is an element of Providence in the book, and the CoE was the place were everything got together.



> Elrond had already decided what had to be done


 Maybe elrond knwe what has to be done (destroy the ring) but there were other that can give opinion like Aragorn an Gandalf remember that This Wizard was the Chief in the war against Sauron.


----------



## Ancalagon (Apr 30, 2002)

Providence relates to the direct interjection of the 'One God', however in the case of Tolkiens realm, the interjection of the Valar is more apparent and more likely. Prove Iluvatars direct interjection and I will accept this arguement without so much as a whimper.


----------



## Camille (Apr 30, 2002)

What about what Goroshimura posted?


> "You may be sure that it was not for any merit that others do not possess: not for power or wisdom, at any rate. But you have been chosen, and you must therefore use such strength and heart and wits as you have." -- Gandalf


for example. Ok Let not call it providence but there was something else behind the events.


----------



## Goro Shimura (Apr 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ancalagon _
> *So I will state this with clarity; my interpretation of devine intervention is solely through the power and thoughts of the Valar, who were the powers within Arda.
> 
> So, before one begins to quote those 'mysterious ways', one must consider the autonomy of Arda. This of course rests in the hands of the Valar. *


But what did the "Powers of Arda" do when confronted with the fleets of Ar-Pharazon?

"Then Manwe upon the Mountain called upon Iluvatar, and for that time the Valar laid down their government of Arda. But Iluvatar showed forth his power, and he changed the fashion of the world; and a great chasm opened in the sea...."

The Valar are powers, yes... but when compared to Iluvatar they are mere technicians-- not engineers or authors.

"For the Children of Iluvatar were conceived by him alone; and they came with the third theme, and were not in the them which Iluvatar propounded at the beginning, and none of the Ainur had part in their making."

Though Faramir's men call on the Valar to turn an oliphant aside, these Powers are still yet merely servants of the One. All providential activity in ME has its source in Iluvatar:

"And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."

Kinda reminds you of Gollum, Saurman, and Sauron, doesn't it?

(Note the similarity in the tone of these passages to the King James Old Testament.)


> *Once again I fear that I have missed the plot entirely so I would ask you Goroshima to elaborate and define the underlying tone and subtleness of Tolkiens work that has clearly escaped me. *


Sure:

The plot of tLotR is intimately intertwined with the parallel ideas of Providence and Freewill. These twin themes culminate into an even greater theme: that Evil is in reality powerless in that while it contributes to it's own downfall it inadvertantly ends up glorifying the Creator by serving as His instrument.


----------



## Grond (May 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goroshimura _
> *...The plot of tLotR is intimately intertwined with the parallel ideas of Providence and Freewill. These twin themes culminate into an even greater theme: that Evil is in reality powerless in that while it contributes to it's own downfall it inadvertantly ends up glorifying the Creator by serving as His instrument. *


Ouch! I think you got through Anc's armour with that one.


----------



## Ancalagon (May 1, 2002)

Tolkien Letter;


> ...As for any inner meaning or 'message,' it has in the intention of the author none. It is neither allegorical nor topical. As the story grew it put down roots (into the past) and threw out unexpected branches: but its main theme was settled from the outset by the inevitable choice of the Ring as the link between it and The Hobbit...Other arrangements could be devised acccording to the tastes or views of those who like allegory or topical reference. But I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old an wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history, true or feigned, with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of the readers. I think that many confuse 'applicability' with 'allegory;' but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.



Ok, old quote, seem meaning. I disagree with the use of 'providence' for the simple fact that within Arda, the major powers were the Valar. They, by design, direct and manipulate the more mysterious occurances within the story. Yet, it must also be pointed out that many of these occurances could just as easily be attributed to 'faeries, leprachauns, witches, wizards, banshees, poltergeists' to name but a few non-christian mythological entities, which of course this work also is.

However, let's be clear on your meaning of 'providence', for your consider that only a monothestic God (or Christian God) is influencing the unfolding tales of Middle-Earth. Therefore you cannot accept that any action of the Valar is an action without the intention of Eru, ultimately.



> ...The plot of tLotR is intimately intertwined with the parallel ideas of Providence and Freewill.



Surely then, if the Valar, or any other being cannot make decisions without them being directed by Iluvatar, then they do not have freewill at all. Therefore your summation is a complete contradiction.


----------



## Goro Shimura (May 1, 2002)

*Re: Re: Was the Council of Elrond a Farce?*

"The Council of Elrond, was simply a history lesson, out of which came an objective, with no planning, or decisive, practical leadership. All that and the baggage of two clowns. Otherwise known as a Farce." -- Ancalagon


> _Originally posted by Goroshimura _
> *Do you still hold to this opinion even after examining the significance of the Providential themes of the chapter?*


I answer your questions... why won't you answer mine??


----------



## Goro Shimura (May 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ancalagon _
> *However, let's be clear on your meaning of 'providence', for your consider that only a monothestic God (or Christian God) is influencing the unfolding tales of Middle-Earth. Therefore you cannot accept that any action of the Valar is an action without the intention of Eru, ultimately.*


That's what Melkor found out:

"And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined." 

Melkor had a choice to serve Iluvatar or Rebel. And all the Free Peoples at the CoE had the same decsion to make. Frodo did not have to accept his divine appointment. He took up the burden of his own free will.



> *Therefore your summation is a complete contradiction.*


Is it really?


----------



## Ancalagon (May 1, 2002)

> "And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."



This quote relates directly to the Ainulindale, the music and creation of Middle-Earth. It does not however affect those decisions thereafter when the Valar actually inherit Middle-Earth. There, they are their own masters and responsible for their own actions. There is no other direct petitioning to Iluvatar save the one you have quoted.

Why is this? Why does Iluvatar not take a more active interest in his creation? Is it because he is not responsible for providence within Arda but the Valar are. What goes on within the confines of Arda is the responsiblity of the Valar, this is their creation, their responsibility and their purpose. 



> that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs. And therefore they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.


----------



## Grond (May 1, 2002)

Then why are there numerous instances where Manwe consults with Eru? Two times that immediately come to mind are the decision to create the Ents and the fate of Numenor. There are others that do not come to mind. It seems the Valar are given dominion up to a certain point. My take on the LotR since I first read it so many years ago was that Eru was taking a hand in the world, using both the Valar and a little thing for which he alone had control... fate! These are my opinions and not substantiated by the book... yet!


----------



## Gothmog (May 1, 2002)

And by all the posts that quote intervention whether by Iluvatar or by the Valar only prove that the Council of Elrond was indeed a farce as neither Eru nor the Valar were present and only one Maia and he was of greatly constrained power. So if the decisions as to the path of the Ring and the make-up of the Fellowship is down to the intervention of 'Higher Powers' then this proves that the Council played no real part and therefore was a farce and that even Elrond did little of note as others told him what to do and say.


----------



## Ancalagon (May 1, 2002)

Why though is it impossible to think that Manwe and the rest of the Valar are responsible for 'moving in mysterious ways', when something unexplainable happens? Furthermore, when Gandalf states that the ring was meant for Bilbo and Frodo, it was the rings decision, not Eru's.


----------



## Goro Shimura (May 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ancalagon _
> *Why though is it impossible to think that Manwe and the rest of the Valar are responsible for 'moving in mysterious ways', when something unexplainable happens? Furthermore, when Gandalf states that the ring was meant for Bilbo and Frodo, it was the rings decision, not Eru's. *


That's crazy!!

The ring wants to get back to Sauron.

Sauron imparted his nature into it. When he came back into power as the Necromancer of Mirkwood, he "summoned" it. The ring responded to Sauron by abandoning Gollum.

And as chance would have it, that was the exact moment that Bilbo happened along. _If chance you call it._ That was the last thing Sauron (or the ring) would have wanted.

Later when Frodo recieved the ring, it got him into trouble all the time-- because it wanted to reveal the bearer publicly so that it could get back to Sauron.


----------



## Goro Shimura (May 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Gothmog _
> *So if the decisions as to the path of the Ring and the make-up of the Fellowship is down to the intervention of 'Higher Powers' then this proves that the Council played no real part and therefore was a farce and that even Elrond did little of note as others told him what to do and say. *


Frodo did not have to accept the task that was appointed to him. The Free Peoples did not have to "play along" with whatever force it was that gave them the opportunity to destroy the ring.



Analogy: (NOT an allegory!!)

You are completely broke, hungry, and homeless.

Fate (ie God or the Gods-- whatever) has so ordered things that you have an opportunity to win the Lottery. All you have to do is drive to a certain state and buy a ticket.

However you don't know all the facts. Fate has brought about a "coincidental" meeting between you and 2 old college buddies of yours. After talking for a few hours at a diner, you all realize you have this incredibly opportunity.

One of your friends offers to loan you his car. The other gives you enough gas money to make it to the state so you can buy your ticket.

At the end of the meeting you have all decided together what to do. You set off the next morning to go get your ticket.

The End



In this example, you don't have to go-- and your friends are free to decide you're crazy. They don't have to help you.

But you all choose to cooperate with Fate.

And you live happily ever after with your millions of dollars.

Is this a farce? Has Fate compromised your free will in this scenario?


----------



## Tyaronumen (May 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ancalagon _
> *
> Why is this? Why does Iluvatar not take a more active interest in his creation? Is it because he is not responsible for providence within Arda but the Valar are. What goes on within the confines of Arda is the responsiblity of the Valar, this is their creation, their responsibility and their purpose.
> 
> *



It is because to Iluvatar, the separation between himself and his creations is superficial. The active interest of all of the 'other actors' in Ea IS the interest of Iluvatar at work. He is entirely responsible for all that occurs within Arda.

Basically -- playing hide and seek with himself.

That's how I feel about the matter.


----------



## Gothmog (May 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goroshimura _
> *Frodo did not have to accept the task that was appointed to him. The Free Peoples did not have to "play along" with whatever force it was that gave them the opportunity to destroy the ring.
> 
> 
> ...



So in what way does this change the view that the Council was a Farce?

Elrond and Gandalf could have talked to the Fellowship without the extras who played no part.The messengers from the other peoples could have been sent back with the same information in less time as they were only asking for Elronds' opinion. The "Free Peoples" had little choice as to 'Playing along' as they were largely ignored in the case of the Ring. Elrond sent the Fellowship to do as He wanted, Galadriel was a ring user and involved in the same way as Elrond and so help the fellowship along the same path. Denethor refused to 'Play Along' but was prevented from getting his hands on the Ring. Faramir, as an individual decided to help the quest and went against his lord and father. Fangorn was not at the council and had no news from it. As for the rest, their choice was to fight against Sauron or for him.

But other than that, if you claim 'divine intervention' for the choices then the Council served no purpose. If those involved used whatever 'Free Will' (limited choice) to say either yes or no, then this is still nothing to do with the Council. they would have had exactly the choice presented to them in any case. "Devine Intervention" would have seen to that at the very least.


----------



## Goro Shimura (May 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Gothmog _
> *But other than that, if you claim 'divine intervention' for the choices then the Council served no purpose. If those involved used whatever 'Free Will' (limited choice) to say either yes or no, then this is still nothing to do with the Council. they would have had exactly the choice presented to them in any case. "Devine Intervention" would have seen to that at the very least. *


God/Fate/Whatever did not make anybody at the CoE do anything.

G/F/W _called_ representatives to the council, _chose_ Frodo and _appointed_ the task of destroying the ring to him. Everyone was free to laugh Frodo back into the Shire-- and Frodo was free to wimp out.

CoE marked a great turning point in the history of ME. All battles fought before that were merely the "long defeat." Everything changed after the CoE.

CoE is, as far as I can tell, the most significant debate in the entire history of the Children of Iluvatar. 

(Let's keep this in perspective here: the Divine Intervention that is alluded to in this scene is much subdued compared to what happened to Elwing and Earendil....)


----------



## Gothmog (May 3, 2002)

No the Council of Elrond was nothing more than a History lesson from Elrond and Gandalf Explaining to FRODO why he did not turn up a promised. Since this is true it could have been done without the Council. And the 'Great Turning Point' was Frodo accepting the Burden of the Ring. I have never said that any were forced into doing anything, however, coercion of any discription from any where, divine intervention, Gandalf, or silence, is a form of force. The fact that Frodo could have said no is not in dispute. What is in dispute is how valuable was the Council. In my opinion not very.

It was not me who brought up the idea of 'Devine Intervention' so I can hardly be blamed for answering.


----------



## Ancalagon (May 3, 2002)

> CoE is, as far as I can tell, the most significant debate in the entire history of the Children of Iluvatar.




Hmmm, sort of like the Last Supper?


----------



## Turgon (May 3, 2002)

Sorry I just don't understand this whole 'The Council of Elrond was a Farce' thing.


> _By Gothmog_
> Basically it was nothing more than a Talking-shop...


Um, basically that's what a council is... people get together and discuss what's going on and what needs to be done (usually a council will be fairly representative of the people - in this case Elves, Dwarves, Halflings and Men) - that's what happened right?


----------



## Goro Shimura (May 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ancalagon _
> *Hmmm, sort of like the Last Supper? *


What's that supposed to mean?


----------



## Gothmog (May 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Turgon _
> *Sorry I just don't understand this whole 'The Council of Elrond was a Farce' thing.
> 
> Um, basically that's what a council is... people get together and discuss what's going on and what needs to be done (usually a council will be fairly representative of the people - in this case Elves, Dwarves, Halflings and Men) - that's what happened right? *



Yes and all the decisions were made either before or after the Council with the exception of Frodo accepting the Quest of the Ring. And this could have been done without the Council. Therefore it achieved nothing. Elrond gave a history lesson to all who cared to hear, and Gandalf told Frodo why he was late. What was to be done with the Ring was decided long before and the make-up of the Fellowship was decided after, Very little of import happened at.


----------



## Turgon (May 3, 2002)

> _By Gothmog_
> Yes and all the decisions were made either before or after the Council with the exception of Frodo accepting the Quest of the Ring. And this could have been done without the Council. Therefore it achieved nothing. Elrond gave a history lesson to all who cared to hear, and Gandalf told Frodo why he was late. What was to be done with the Ring was decided long before and the make-up of the Fellowship was decided after, Very little of import happened at.


Sound like a council meeting to me...


----------



## Ancalagon (May 3, 2002)

> What's that supposed to mean?



Well the gathering of the Fellowship, prior to Frodo going off to sacrifice himself for the good of mankind, whose age it now was. Of course all this being directed by Iluvatar, who himself had a plan, and then there is Boromir, as good as Judas really.


----------



## Gothmog (May 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Turgon _
> *
> Sound like a council meeting to me... *



I thank you for agreeing with me A Farce.


----------



## Turgon (May 3, 2002)

Seriously though - I think the important thing about the CoE was that representatives of all the Free Peoples of ME did get together and discuss what was going on... Elrond deciding things behind closed doors doesn't make any sense... it's not the way the he worked... to say it was just a history lesson is missing the point... for the most part when the free people worked together they worked 'Democratically' for want of a better word... The White Council is a prime example... the titular head was Saruman - but everybody had input at the council... What would Dain or Thranduil have said if when their representatives came back and told them that Elrond wouldn't speak to them because he was locked in his study with a wizard and a couple of Hobbits? Wouldn't be too pleased I imagine. When a leader makes a monumentous decicion as Elrond had to, he would be wise to learn all the facts - get as many opinions as possible and then decide...


----------



## Ancalagon (May 3, 2002)

What exactly was Elronds monumental decision?


----------



## Gothmog (May 3, 2002)

How many decisions were made at the council? there was one, Frodo's. Elrond countered all paths for the Ring exept it's traveling to Mordor to be destroyed. This he did because the decision was made before the Council. The companions of the Ring-barer with the exception of Sam, who no body could have stopped, was decided After.


----------



## Turgon (May 3, 2002)

You've got to see the bigger picture here people... What would have happened without the council? Dain and Thranduil would be totally uninformed as to what was really going on in ME... 
'What do you mean Saruman is traitor... I've just sent him two legions of crack troops in an effort to end the ent menace once and for all...'
Do you not think the decisions made *after* the council were based upon what was heard *at* the council... 
... how do you make informed decisions without knowing the facts? I'm fascinated guys... how do avoid the 'farcical' nature of decision making and still keep everyone envolved and informed... I'm sure the world is dying to know... it would change the course of politics forever...


----------



## Goro Shimura (May 6, 2002)

A dwarf showing up to warn Bilbo that a Black Riderish character has been been inquiring about him and his ring...

An elf showing up it let everyone know that Gollum's loose...

Boromir showing up to try to find the answer to his dream...

Aragorn announcing that it's time for him to reforge Isildur's sword...

Gandalf showing up to let everyone know about why he was missing for a while and also to break the news about Saruman's treachery...

Elrond telling the history of the One ring and what it's significance was...

Bilbo telling how he found it...

Frodo telling about his trip to Rivendale...


Maybe they should have made decisions without sharing all of this information first.


----------



## Wonko The Sane (May 6, 2002)

*Dear Garthmog,*

***Editted by Beorn***
I can't believe you'd dis on Elrond like that.
First of all he's totally bad ***Editted by Beorn*** what with his whole "Mr. Anderson" thing.
And plus he's an elf. And all elves are sexy.
So this council thingy wasn't a farce...or even fake! It was 1) A good chance to put a lot of sexy elves in the same room.
2) A good chance for Gimli and Legolas to fight
3) A good chance to hear Aragorn go "Sit down, Legolas" (Ha! I laugh every time.)
And 4) A good chance to put a lot of sexy elves in the same room.

P.S.- Do you think Legolas would marry me? *licks lips*


----------



## Walter (May 6, 2002)

I tend to see the CoE as one of the most important Chapters in the LotR for several reasons:

1) On his attempt to write a successor for "The Hobbit" this was as far as JRRT would get before reaching some sort of dead-end which was sometime in 1938 methinks. Until then it was a "Hobbit-story" - even Strider, who's name was "Trotter" by that time, was a hobbit, though oddly for a hobbit he was wearing shoes - but Tolkien didn't seem quite satisfied with it. So he did what he used to do on such occasions: He started to turn the story over and ended up rewriting almost everything. By 1939 he no longer wanted a successor for "The Hobbit" but rather a successor of the book that turned out to be the "Silmarillion" much later. 

2) The various participants of the CoE got to know the current status-quo on either side, it became clear that the ring had to be destroyed, sending it to the West was no longer a serious option and the participants realized that there was an urgent need to join their forces if their attempt to overthrow Sauron should have some slight chance of success.

3) Last and most important: The reader is provided with all the necessary background information s/he is missing so far - historical information which hadn't been necessary in the story for a successor of The Hobbit - and without which a deeper understanding of the - now new - story would not be possible, and Tolkien could give that without having to make even more changes to the story so far....


----------



## Wonko The Sane (May 7, 2002)

The CoE, as most have said, provided necessary background for those who 1) Did not read The Hobbit, the Silmarillion, etc. 2) Had no prior knowledge of what went on to bring the ring to Bilbo and consequently Frodo 3) To further explain the significance of the ring which was heretofore unknown other than the history of it given by Gandalf in the beginning of the FotR, and 4) To refresh the memory of anyone who had gone a long time between reading The Hobbit and LotR as I had. 
I think it was purely logistical from a writing standpoint.
Plus it works because it plays into Elrond's image as the knower of all.


----------

