# Celeborn: Wisest elf in ME?



## redline2200 (Feb 10, 2003)

I was always under the impression that Galadriel and Elrond were accounted as the wisest elves in ME (especially Elrond), but I read something today that I must have surpassed when I last read this book.

This is from The Fellowship of the Ring, in the chapter "The Mirror of Galadriel:



> 'Your quest is known to us,' said Galadriel, looking at Frodo. 'But we will not here speak of it more openly. Yet not in vain will it prove, maybe, that you came to this land seeking aid, as Gandalf himself plainly purposed. For the Lord of the Galadhrim is accounted the wisest of the elves of Middle-earth, and a giver of gifts beyond the power of kings....'



Did I misread this or does Galadriel explicity refer to Celeborn being the wisest elf in Middle-earth?


----------



## Goldberry (Feb 10, 2003)

She does, but EVERYONE knows it is her!


----------



## Niniel (Feb 10, 2003)

Maybe she means that he is the wisest of the Grey-Elves (Sindarin), i.e. those Elves who have never been to Aman, because she says specifically 'the Elves of Middle-earth.' Whereas she herself is a Noldo and has been to Aman, and Elrond, though he hasn't been there himself (has he?), is descended from Noldorin Elves (and a Maia). I don't think Celeborn is wiser than Elrond or Galadriel, so she can't mean that.


----------



## BlackCaptain (Feb 10, 2003)

Well, if she says that he is accounted wisest, then he must be wisest!


----------



## Niniel (Feb 10, 2003)

She says is _accounted_ wisest, not that he _is_ wisest. Maybe others think he is the wisest, because they don't know the wisdom of Elrond and Galadriel.


----------



## Baranlas (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Niniel _
> *Maybe she means that he is the wisest of the Grey-Elves (Sindarin), i.e. those Elves who have never been to Aman, because she says specifically 'the Elves of Middle-earth.' Whereas she herself is a Noldo and has been to Aman, and Elrond, though he hasn't been there himself (has he?), is descended from Noldorin Elves (and a Maia). I don't think Celeborn is wiser than Elrond or Galadriel, so she can't mean that. *



wasnt he changed to a teleri prince from aqualonde?
im sure i read that some where


----------



## redline2200 (Feb 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MorgulKing _
> *Well, if she says that he is accounted wisest, then he must be wisest! *



That's kinda the way I took it also, but it just doesn't seem to me that Celeborn could be wiser than Elrond the _wise_. He just seems to much of an underdeveloped character. Don't get me wrong, he is one my favorite elves, but I just always pictured Elrond wiser.


----------



## Beleg (Feb 11, 2003)

This is one of the many contradictions that have been noticed over the year.

Over the subject of wisest let me give a Quote concerning Cìrdan.


> For Cirdan saw Farthest and deepest then any other in middle-earth.


I wont say that Celebron is the wisest. The way he reacted to Gimli's presence in Caras Gladhorn to me proves that he certainly wasn't the most wisest among the elves living in Middle Earth. I would say that either the title goes to Galadriel Or Elrond and Perhaps to Cirdan also.


----------



## Ceorl (Feb 12, 2003)

This is certainly a topic that has no definite answer. How do you test who is the wisest of the Elves? 

You cannot say that the treatment of the Elves of Lorien proves that Celeborn was less wise than any other of the Elves, as it had been a law, and a very prudent law, not to allow any others into their land save trusted friends of the Elves. Haldir was not acting upon direct orders of Celeborn when he blindfolded Gimli, he was acting according to the law of their land which had served as a guideline for centuries.
Do not forget Celeborn was amongst the Elves of Doriath which was destroyed by the dwarves. I personally do not find it surprising that he would have enmity towards the kin of his families slayers.

Also know that Celeborn is among one of the eldest Elves in ME. slightly younger than Cirdan, however he was in the court of Melian and learned much of her wisdom, as did all the people of that land. He is much older than Elrond also. 

However personally I would consider Galadriel the wisest, as she has lived in the West and is the last of the leaders of the flight of the Noldor, and also one of the oldest of the Elves.

Still as I said, not a matter than can easily be resolved.


----------



## Ithrynluin (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Celeborn's age*

There were three brothers of the Teleri: Elwë Thingol, Olwë of Alqualondë and the less known Elmo.

Galadriel was the granddaughter of Olwë, and Celeborn was the grandson of Elmo. That makes me think they were _about_ the same age (cca 8000 years)...Celeborn might be even a bit younger than Galadriel.


----------



## Niniel (Feb 12, 2003)

In the History of Galadriel and Celeborn in the Unfinished Tales, Christopher Tolkien writes that 'there is no part of the history of ME more full of problems than the story of Galadriel and Celeborn.' He mentions several versions of where Celeborn came from:
-He lived in Lothórien since he was born.
-Celeborn was a kinsman of Thingol and lived in Lindon, until he moved eastward with Galadriel.
-Celeborn was a kinsman of Thingol and lived in Doriath until he moved eastward with Galadriel.
-Celeborn was a Teleri prince form Alqualonde (as ithrynluin says), and had lived with Galadriel since they met in Aman.
Quite confusing all this, and I don't think it gives any clue as to how wise he is.


----------



## DurinLongBeard (Feb 12, 2003)

Interesting question. I altogether doubt Galadriels wisedom. She is wise, but, without her ring I doubt she would match the wisdom of Celeborn or Elrond. I also believe that Celeborn is underdevoloped, and, if more detail was given, probably match the wisdom of Elrond. Therefore, I say the statement is true!


----------



## Lantarion (Feb 13, 2003)

So you think that Galadriel's ring gave her intelligence, or wisdom?? Where did you get that from? 
And as for Celeborn, from the book I deducted that he isn't terribly bright. 
Elrond, as I gather, was very learned in the lore of the Elder Days, judging from the myriad of books and maps that are found in Imladris. And he lived in Beleriand for a while, before it was destroyed, and must have been taught something of the histories of Arda in his childhood.


----------



## redline2200 (Feb 13, 2003)

> And as for Celeborn, from the book I deducted that he isn't terribly bright.



How did you deduct that an elf who is the *king* of the fairest place in all of middle-earth isn't very bright?  You don't exactly earn that title on a whim.


----------



## DurinLongBeard (Feb 13, 2003)

In the chapter of "The Council of Elrond", Elrond proves my point i believe.

"The Three were not made by Sauron, nor did he ever touch them. But of them it is not permitted to speak. So much only in this of doubt I may now say. They are not idle. But they were not made as weapons of war or conquest: that is not their power. Those who made them did not desire strength or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making, healing, to preserve all things unstained."

I do not know about you Lantarion but i consider this a type of wisdom. For wisdom can be more than one thing. And also, through the ring Galadriel was able to communicate without talking and to see things that people think. She also can tell everything within the fences of Lothlorien.

The Mirror Of Galadriel
" Gandalf the Grey set out with the Company, but he did not pass the borders of this land. Now tell us where he is; for I much desire to speak with him again. But I cannot see him from afar, unless he comes within the fences of Lothlorien: a grey mist is about him, and the ways of his feet and of his mind are hidden from me" 

With out the ring she would not be as wise and, in turn, not match the wisdom and wit of Celeborn. Most of her abilities come from the ring i think.


----------



## BlackCaptain (Feb 13, 2003)

The elven rings were made to preserve things Durin, not make you wiser. Preservation, healing, and making are not wisdom, and granted the description does say understanding, but still, I dont think that makes you "wise". Some elves have vision of fore-sight, and the Rings do not grant them that power. Galadriel would be very wise, with or without her ring. Galdriel communicating with people "telepathicaly" isnt granted by the Rings either. She can give people visions. She can telecomunicate in the movies, wich is probly how u drew this conclusion, but i hate ta break it to ya... The movies are pretty innacurate. And most of her abilities do not come from the Ring. She can tell all things in the borders of her land, because she's an Elf. Elves now thier land. And she is constantly having scouts and gaurds come and tell her news.


----------



## DurinLongBeard (Feb 13, 2003)

I see your point PARTIALLY morgulking. 

The mirror of Galadriel

"She seemed to be looking inside me and asking me what I would do if she gave me the chance of flying back home to the Shire to a nice little hole with-with a bit of garden of my own. That's funny, said Merry. Almost exactly what I felt myself."

She does do something of the sort in the book! i did not choose the right words and also they say Celeborn has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn. I have never heard of other elves being able to enter your thoughts like Galadriel either.


----------



## DurinLongBeard (Feb 13, 2003)

And MorgulKing re-read the qoute with Galadriel talking that i typed out. she specificly states that "A grey mist is about him, and the ways of his feet and of his mind are hidden from me." She is implying that she cannot quite place out what he is doing, and that she cannot see him like she should. Think about it. And i do know the movies are inaccurate.


----------



## BlackCaptain (Feb 13, 2003)

The "gray mist" means that Galadriel doesnt know were Gandalf is. So she cant foresee that.
And as for her talking with sam, well, not really talking. She was tempting him, by putting a thought in his mind. Like i said, she can do that, because she is VERY VERY old, and has gained much wisdom. With little, or no help from Narya. 

Thats what I think. may be wrong however...


----------



## DurinLongBeard (Feb 13, 2003)

MorgulKing! we cannot reach an agreement . But, none the less, I will explain my reasoning. By saying that a grey mist surrounds him she is not saying that he is not there or that she has had no word from her scouts, she is saying she sees/perceives a grey mist encompassing him. If she was saying that he is not there or the scouts she would say just that. But no! She says a grey mist is about him meaning (i think) that she is SEEING a grey mist about him. And they are both very old!


----------



## BlackCaptain (Feb 13, 2003)

So are you sayin that she has foresight and sees a gray mist? What exactly does this gray mist represent? The gray mist is a metaphor. Her vision of Gandalf is blurred, so she cant see him. Like a mist. She cannot see Gandalf. What does being old have to do with it?

Someone help us! put an end to our juvenile debate! lol


----------



## Ithrynluin (Feb 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MorgulKing _
> *So are you sayin that she has foresight and sees a gray mist? What exactly does this gray mist represent? The gray mist is a metaphor. Her vision of Gandalf is blurred, so she cant see him. Like a mist. She cannot see Gandalf. What does being old have to do with it?
> 
> Someone help us! put an end to our juvenile debate! lol *



You are totally right. There, your debate is ended. 

DurinLongBeard, what exactly are you trying to prove by this great mist? Try to be more coherent with your thoughts please!


----------



## DurinLongBeard (Feb 13, 2003)

lol. I don't know, the mist seems to be covering my brain now also. I can't explain what i was getting at, i just think that without the ring Galadriel would not be as wise as Celeborn. But lets end this little debate. You are right MorgulKing!!


----------



## Dáin Ironfoot I (Feb 13, 2003)

MorgulKing definitely wins this round.

Galadriel IS the wisest Elf in Middle Earth. Her ring allowed her to preserve and uphold the beauty of Caras Galadhorn, as well as the Wood surrounding it. That's really ALL it did. She learned most of her 'vision' and 'predicting' skills, as well as keeping her borders defended from Melian. Remember the Girdle of Melian? Galadriel was in Doriath with her, and learned much from her, as they spent a lot of time together. Melian was a Maia, and probably helped Galadriel to see far into the future, as well as pry into the minds of others.

No Elf would have been more terrible and powerful than Galadriel if she wore the One Ring. Notice Tolkien ONLY presented HER (out of the Elves anyway) with the opportunity to take it, I think he was trying to show her immense power by doing so. She was also the last Elf on ME that was a Noldor, and one of the only ones that had seen the light of the Two Trees. I think Cirdan was older than she, but more powerful? No, not by a long shot.


----------



## Ithrynluin (Feb 14, 2003)

While Melian undoubtedly taught Galadriel much about keeping your realm safe, and Galadriel learned much wisdom from her...
the gift of insight into the minds of others was with her from her very birth, as it says in UT.


----------



## redline2200 (Feb 14, 2003)

I know what your saying Dáin Ironfoot I, but you can't really get around the fact that Galadriel said Celeborn was wiser than her. I realize she has more of a background than he does, but I don't think Galadriel would just flat out lie to everyone and say Celeborn was wiser. What was the point of her saying it if it is not true?


----------



## Ithrynluin (Feb 14, 2003)

Perhaps Celeborn is considered wisest in a certain area of knowledge, experience, advice. This is not stated, so just a random thought.


----------



## Dáin Ironfoot I (Feb 14, 2003)

Well lets just say that Mama G is very humble  

But, as I may point out, at the time (and mindset) of this book, women were not accustomed to being equal to men. I think this could have something to do with it. Although... Galadriel was reported as being (as stated in the UT) the fairest, wisest, and most physically fit behind Feanor of the Noldor...

So thats pretty cool... she is definitely wiser than Celeborn, thats all there is to it! Remember.. it was she and ONLY she that sympathized with Gandalf and encouraged the others in the White Council to listen to him about destroying the Necromancer earlier ( I dont remember why it didnt work, but it is true )

Not even Elrond or Celeborn took Gandalf's words to heart at that time... as stated in the Sil I believe.


----------



## Dáin Ironfoot I (Feb 14, 2003)

Some quotes:



> _The Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age_
> A queen she was of the woodland Elves, the wife of Celeborn of Doriath, yet she herself was of the Noldor and remembered the Day before the days in Valinor, and she was the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle Earth.



Hmm... mightiest and fairest...not Celeborn, but GALADRIEL. And in terms of mighty.. I believe it has to do with power of the mind and spirit = wisdom & knowledge, and not physical might, as well... she is rather old!



> _The Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age_
> But the red ring remained hidden, and none save Elrond and Galadriel and Cirdan knew to whom it had been commited.



Funny? I don't see _Celeborn_ mentioned! Don't you think that Celeborn if he were the wisest Elf in ME be told the location of this Ring of Fire? O wait... he's NOT the wisest Elf in ME, and certainly not the mightiest, as stated before in the above quote! 
 



> _The Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age_
> Galadriel indeed had wished that Mirthrandir be the head of the Council, and Saruman begrudged them that, for his pride and desire of mastery was known great...



Funny? Why didnt Celeborn see Saruman's treachery and stand alongside his wife if he were so wise? Well.. thats because he ISN'T WISE! Ahh!!! DUMB ELF!


----------



## redline2200 (Feb 15, 2003)

First, show me the quote in UT, where it states Galadriel as the wisest elf in ME. It is obvious that being Mighty does not make you wise! Gandalf is stated as the wisest of the Wizards(and Maiar for that matter), yet when they first appeared in ME everyone knew Saruman was mightier! Might does not imply wisdom. As for this:



> I believe it has to do with power of the mind and spirit = wisdom & knowledge, and not physical might, as well... _she is rather old!_



In case it slipped your mind, Galadriel IS AN ELF. Age would have no effect on her strength.

Secondly, I actually think you have a pretty good argument, and you are probably right, but there is one thing you said that irked me:



> Well.. thats because he ISN'T WISE! Ahh!!! DUMB ELF!



He isn't wise???? What in the world was going through your mind to make the statement that CELEBORN IS NOT WISE??!!?? According to you, Galadriel is the wisest elf in ME (which she quite possibly could be), so if the WISEST elf in ME, said that her husband is wiser than she is, then it is obvious that he knows a thing or two! He is the one AND ONLY Lord of Lothlorien, the fairest and most protected place in ME; I wouldn't refer to a person in that title as "dumb." Obviously Galadriel saw something in that "dumb elf" to marry him.


----------



## Tar-Elenion (Feb 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DurinLongBeard _
> And also, through the ring Galadriel was able to communicate without talking and to see things that people think. She also can tell everything within the fences of Lothlorien.



The 'telepathic' communication was not an effect of the rings. This is a 'natural' ability, called _osanwe_ of all minds in Ea with some limitations and on capabilty. There is an extensive essay entitled _Osanwe-kenta "Enquiry into the Communication of Thought"_ by JRRT that was published in the linguistc journal _Vinyar Tengwar 39_, see: www.elvish.org for ordering info.

Also note that in RotK, Many Partings, it says speaking of Elrond, Gandalf, Galadriel and Celeborn: "If any wanderer had chanced to pass, little would he have seen or heard, and it would have seemed to him only that he saw grey figures, carved in stone, memorials of forgotten things now lost in unpeopled lands. For they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to mind; and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their thoughts went to and fro." This takes place after the destruction of the One Ring, thus the Three have lost their power, and Celeborn did not have a Ring in any event.


----------



## Tar-Elenion (Feb 15, 2003)

JRRT in an essay on Cirdan (published in PoME) wrote: "He is said in the Annals of the Third Age (c.1000) to have seen further and deeper into the future than anyone else in Middle-earth. This does not include the Istari (who came from Valinor), but must include even Elrond, Galadriel, and Celeborn."
This is referring to the statement in the Appendices to LotR: "For Cirdan saw further and deeper than any other in Middle-earth, and he welcomed Mithrandir at the Grey Havens, knowing whence he came and whither he would return."


----------



## Dáin Ironfoot I (Feb 15, 2003)

Ah redline, I was only being fecitious. Of course Celeborn is wise, but I was merely implying that Galadriel was much wiser. Notice the simley winky face thing at the end!

People on this forum can NOT take a joke these days...


----------



## redline2200 (Feb 15, 2003)

I kind of realized it was a joke, but I was judging by some of the expressions you were using that implied your being serious. It is hard to differentiate sarcism and seriousness when I can not see or hear you.


----------

