# Turin turambar vs fingolfin



## Turin_Turambar (May 8, 2021)

one is the one who will kill the melkor and the other is the one who leaves the melkor lame. one is the best warrior of the men and the other the elves.which one?


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## 1stvermont (May 9, 2021)

Fingolfin. Epic showdown vs Morgoth hurt him what 7 times i think? finally faded due to being tired.


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## Turin_Turambar (May 9, 2021)

1stvermont said:


> Fingolfin. Epic showdown vs Morgoth hurt him what 7 times i think? finally faded due to being tired.
> 
> View attachment 9300


but in the battle of dagor dagorath it is turin who will kill the melkor.There is also a phrase for turin. No one can kill him with a weapon unless a malign arrow comes.


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## earthfriend (May 10, 2021)

In an earlier post i had asked who would be a match for Turin. Don't think anyone could match his martial skills, also filled with desire for revenge against Morgoth. I had also said he was a walking mass of PTSD, and a reputable psychiatrist would have had a field day with him


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## 1stvermont (May 10, 2021)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> but in the battle of dagor dagorath it is turin who will kill the melkor.There is also a phrase for turin. No one can kill him with a weapon unless a malign arrow comes.



Good point. But is it a fair fight? is it simply the final doing in of melkor? is it a bard the bowman sort of lucky one chance kill? where fingolfin faced Morgoth fair and almost won.


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## earthfriend (May 10, 2021)

There is a sense of Ragnarok, closure when Turin comes back from death to finally seek the downfall of Morgoth at his hand . This the End of Days. Trouble is, what next when the last battle has been fought? With the Norse myths that Tolkein so closely was influenced by, Balder survives after Ragnarok, and repopulates the land, but Tolkein didn't as far as I'm aware, plan for a mythology beyond dagor dagorath. Perhaps others can enlighten?


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## Oromedur (May 11, 2021)

earthfriend said:


> There is a sense of Ragnarok, closure when Turin comes back from death to finally seek the downfall of Morgoth at his hand . This the End of Days. Trouble is, what next when the last battle has been fought? With the Norse myths that Tolkein so closely was influenced by, Balder survives after Ragnarok, and repopulates the land, but Tolkein didn't as far as I'm aware, plan for a mythology beyond dagor dagorath. Perhaps others can enlighten?


A second music of the Ainur in which the Children of Illuvatar will join, to create a new Arda Unmarred without Melkor and hence without evil.


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## Elthir (May 11, 2021)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> but in the battle of dagor dagorath it is turin who will kill the melkor.



For me this isn't necessarily a fact of the Legendarium. We know that Tolkien kept tinkering with an End of Days scenario but he ultimately dropped the Second *Prophecy* of Mandos and re-characterized the relevant parts of the end of _Quenta Silmarillion_ as Mannish Myth.

And moreover, Tolkien invents a new *prophecy* for Turin. Christopher Tolkien explains:

*"In this last reappearance of the mysterious and fluctuating idea the prophecy is put into the mouth of Andreth, the Wise-woman of the House of Beor: Turin will "return from the Dead" before his final departure, and his last deed within the Circles of the World will be the slaying of the Great Dragon, Ancalagon the Black. Andreth prophesies of the Last Battle at the end of the Elder Days . . . "*

Note 17, The Problem of Ros, *1968 or later*

Unfortunately the end of Quenta Silmarillion was never truly, "wholly" updated by JRRT himself. I've bolded the late date of this note as it very arguably post-dates any of the cursory corrections made to the end of Quenta Silmarillion.

So *if* Turin was *also* to feature in a mannish Myth about the End of Days -- which question is not clear to me, but it's possible -- to my mind, it makes sense for Men to give Turin this role. But even if so, that is all it would be. And if one *insists* that prophecy in Middle-earth must come true, then one can argue that Turin "must" slay Ancalagon -- which also makes sense to me given Turin's connection to Glaurung -- but the slaying of Melkor by Turin is no longer a prophecy of Mandos.

*"Here ends the Silmarillion ( . . . ) fate of Arda Marred; and if any change shall come and the Marring be amended, Manwe and Varda may know; but they have not revealed it, and it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos."*


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## Oromedur (May 11, 2021)

We also have Galadriel’s reference to the raising of Beleriand as she talks of meeting Treedbeard in the willow meads of Nan Tathren. In Many Partings I think from memory.


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## Elthir (May 12, 2021)

There are a number of Elven theories about what might happen when the World and Time ends, scattered about Morgoth's Ring.


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## Turin_Turambar (May 12, 2021)

Elthir said:


> For me this isn't necessarily a fact of the Legendarium. We know that Tolkien kept tinkering with an End of Days scenario but he ultimately dropped the Second *Prophecy* of Mandos and re-characterized the relevant parts of the end of _Quenta Silmarillion_ as Mannish Myth.
> 
> And moreover, Tolkien invents a new *prophecy* for Turin. Christopher Tolkien explains:
> 
> ...


But in previous versions of the Silmarillion book, It is written that turin killed Melkor.. And although Christopher Tolkien gave up the second prophecy of the mandos, he did not remove it completely. Also in all the Middle earth wiki's on the Internet the prophecy that Turin killed Melkor is written.


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## Elthir (May 12, 2021)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> But in previous versions of the Silmarillion book, It is written that turin killed Melkor..



In previous versions of the Silmarillion there was no Galadriel too 



Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> And although Christopher Tolkien gave up the second prophecy of the mandos, he did not remove it completely.



But he did.

Over the years I've seen folks disagree with Christopher Tolkien's statement that the Second Prophecy had *"definitively disappeared"* (Morgoth's Ring), but the distinction I've found is that some seem to take this statement to mean that JRRT had dropped an End Times scenario . . .

. . . rather, I'm saying that Christopher Tolkien is saying that his father dropped the *prophecy* of a *Vala* concerning an End Times scenario. That's different.




Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> Also in all the Middle earth wiki's on the Internet the prophecy that Turin killed Melkor is written.



Perhaps not many wiki-writers have read Tolkien's text The Problem of ROS.


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## Elthir (May 12, 2021)

The Tolkien Gateway page concerning the Dagor Dagorath includes almost everything I've noted above, under a heading _Mannish Legend._

And this section (currently) closes with the statement: "These words [Andreth's prophecy] could be referred to the War of Wrath, but the relation with the Second Prophecy is clear, and it can be another sign that closing the "Númenorean" _Silmarillion_ with a prophecy was not discarded."

"Could be" is not Christopher Tolkien's characterization however. He concludes that Andreth's prophecy refers to the War of Wrath, not an End Times scenario.

And it "can be" a sign that _Quenta Silmarillion_ would close with a prophecy?

Well, for myself I wouldn't end _Quenta Silmarillion_ with a _prophecy_ about the War of Wrath . . . so close to the description of the War of Wrath.


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## earthfriend (May 13, 2021)

Shame on Tolkein! Not going on to write about the End of Days? Boo!


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## Turin_Turambar (May 15, 2021)

Oromedur said:


> A second music of the Ainur in which the Children of Illuvatar will join, to create a new Arda Unmarred without Melkor and hence without evil.


Some members of the forum for some reason do not accept this prophecy. However, everything is very clear.


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## Alcuin (May 15, 2021)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> Some members of the forum for some reason do not accept this prophecy. However, everything is very clear.


This is neither theology nor philosophy. It is at best textual analysis and criticism. At _best_. 

Tolkien’s opinions changed over the years. The names and natures of characters, how they acted, their motivations, the outcomes of those actions. Some people argue that what should be accepted is determined by what Tolkien wrote last. Some of us, I among them, argue for _what fits best_ in the legendarium as a whole. Most everyone agrees that “canon” is what Tolkien himself published during his lifetime; but even then, there are differences based upon what was published (e.g., changes in Bilbo’s interactions with Gollum concerning the Ring in _The Hobbit_). There are a number of well-known problems: the genealogy of Gil-galad, the backstory of Galadriel, and the origins of Celeborn are good examples. 

The “Second Prophecy of Mandos” that concerns the fate of Túrin and Melkor is one of the non-canonical issues (i.e., not published by Tolkien during his lifetime). Whether or not to include and use it depends upon how you want to frame the legendarium. Accepting it on face value is not a cut-and-dried point.


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## Elthir (May 15, 2021)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> Some members of the forum for some reason do not accept this prophecy. However, everything is very clear.



It's clear that Christopher Tolkien noted that the Second Prophecy had "definitively disappeared" -- which is in accord with JRRT's description regarding the _Valaquenta_ -- which Christopher Tolkien used for the end of the constructed Silmarillion instead of the Second Prophecy.

And it's also clear enough to me that Tolkien re-characterized the End of Days scenario at the end of QS as a mannish myth, and, that in the last incarnation of a prophecy regarding Turin, Turin slays Ancalagon at the War of Wrath.

It's not clear to me what Tolkien himself would have ultimately _published _here.

In any case, to clarify my own position perhaps, I've nowhere stated that JRRT dropped an End of Days scenario. But when you simply say "in the battle of dagor dagorath it is turin who will kill the melko", I'm only pointing out that this matter isn't as straightforward as that, for the reasons noted.

Or, as *Alcuin* nicely explained:



> The “Second Prophecy of Mandos” that concerns the fate of Túrin and Melkor is one of the non-canonical issues (i.e., not published by Tolkien during his lifetime). Whether or not to include and use it depends upon how you want to frame the legendarium. Accepting it on face value is not a cut-and-dried point.



👍


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## Elthir (May 15, 2021)

And to get back on topic: even *if* Turin was to slay Melkor according to the prophecy of a Vala (as Tolkien imagined at points in his writing), I don't think that that *necessarily* equates to his physical strength or battle prowess _while he was alive_ in Beleriand.

Which, in any case, is not a slight to Turin's very evident great strength and notable prowess!

And especially so within the context of myth: if a mannish myth arises about Morgoth getting his due, Turin makes sense -- and to me it also makes sense that he "must" slay Morgoth -- no matter whether he could have way back when he was alive in Beleriand.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (May 15, 2021)

I vote for Tom Bombadil, myself.


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## Hisoka Morrow (May 16, 2021)

Elthir said:


> And especially so within the context of myth: if a mannish myth arises about Morgoth getting his due, Turin makes sense -- and to me it also makes sense that he "must" slay Morgoth -- no matter whether he could have way back when he was alive in Beleriand.


So the combat result between Turin and Melkor can't be taken into account, for strictly speaking, it's something like "main character never sucks" rule, such as IP MAN could survive even Batron obviously, he still got endless life bar, right?


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## earthfriend (May 23, 2021)

All played out to a backdrop of Wagner's Ride of the Valkyries. Dah da da da dah daaaaaah!


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