# symbology in LOTR??



## Flame of Anor (May 24, 2002)

Just thought that I would throw this out there. What symbology do you see in the Lord Of the Rings trilogy, if any?


----------



## Theoden (May 24, 2002)

Oh man, I think Tolkien was trying to say a heap about man, the nature of mankind, the effect power has over someone bound in the world, the need for guidence outside oursleves, the horror of un-questioned evil, and so much more. I mean, from the time I picked it up to the time I wept at it's ending, I knew that I was reading not only a great peice of art, but a hidden message. The main thing I felt like I learned from the book is that the days are evil (that's taken from the Bible), and that we have to be on our gaurd all the time. And that just because you seem small and of no value to all of mankind, "No one should look down on you because you are young" (also from the Bible). So, If anyone wants to here a full post of the symbology I see, let me know because I'll need to really think about it and take some time at it.


----------



## Lantarion (May 24, 2002)

I'm sorry to have to say this, but here goes again: Tolkien did not intend any purposeful symbols, metaphors, or other inner meaning in writing the LotR! So it might be fun to look for them, but you're just makin' 'em up if they ain't there.


----------



## Zale (May 24, 2002)

I would have thought that it would be very hard to write a book as good or important as LotR without some symbology or deep themes creeping in. They're bound to be there, whether Tolkien consciously put them there or not; it's just a case of looking for them.
I would say that the most important thing is that we will never get anywhere while we are greedy, selfish and grasping; we have to be selfless and generous (insert preferred virtues here) etc. if we want to get anywhere, socially or culturally.


----------



## Lady_of_Gondor (May 24, 2002)

*Christianity in LOTR*

Many of you will say that Tolkien intended no allegory, and you are right. I have read essays by him that specifically say this. But in my heart, the biggest symbols I take from this book are comparisons to the Bible and Christianity. To me, Sauron represents Satan. The ring represents sin. All that fall to its power are sinners. Eru represents God. The Ainur represent Angels. Hobbits represent God's devoted followers, humble where others would gloat, and always looking to do good. This is the biggest symbol I take from LOTR.

Oh and by the way, not to be rude, but the word is symbolism not symbology.

Good Post!


----------



## Rangerdave (May 24, 2002)

There is no more zen on the top of the mountain thatn what you came up with.

RD

ps. Has anyone else ever read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintainance ?


----------



## Lantarion (May 26, 2002)

No, but I have it and I've thought of reading it. Today I acquired a book called Zen and the Art of Archery, but I'm not sure if it is similar to '..Motorcycle Maintenance'.


----------



## ReadWryt (May 26, 2002)

I walked away with a deep understanding of what Tolkien felt about the use of Magic (Machines) as a quick means to the obtaining of power. This was later backed up by his comments on the subject in several of his letters. His distain for the deforrestation occuring in parts of Britton were also sketched into his writings as well...


----------



## Eithne (May 27, 2002)

i honestly do not believe wholeheartedly in symbolism. i think it can show up in certain places as it pertains to the book, but i don't think tolkien or any other author really meant to write the whole book as an allegory or symbol or anything that stands for something else, whether it be politics or society or whatnot. 

but i do think that tolkien conveyed some of his own beliefs through his story. symbolism, though, well-- i don't think he meant to insert any directly. but the book is open to interpretation, so some things can be symbols to some and straightforward to others. so, who knows.


----------



## Walter (May 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rangerdave _
> ps. Has anyone else ever read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintainance ?


Sure did some 20 years ago and I really enjoyed it. But I've heard he recently wrote a new book, have you read that already perchance?


----------



## Anarchist (May 27, 2002)

Yes, Tolkien didn't like allgory and didn't use any. But you have to understand the difference between allegory and symbolism. Sauron, for example, wasn't an allegory for some particular person of Tolkien's time. That would be allegory. But a lot of men in history look like Sauron. There are always people who want to take on the world, lust for power etc. Sauron is the symbol of lust for power. It would be an allegory if Tolkien meant i.e. Hitler with Sauron character.

There are some symbolisms, with which Tolkien wanted to teach us a few things or express his beliefs. Ents, for instant are the protectors of trees and nature. Tolkien, creating Ents wanted perhaps to teach us how to love nature and how powerful nature is (the Ents where extremely powerful in their anger).

Hobbits are the hidden and unknown heroes. Noone believes that they can do something but in the end they are the true heroes who save the day. There have been a lot of unknown heroes in the history of mankind.

Gollum (this is just my opinion) is the traitor, the backstabber. There have been a lot of those in the history of mankind too. People who backstab the ones who trust them just for their own purposes.


----------



## morning star (May 27, 2002)

To me Aaragorn represents Christ.
In the Bible it says that Christ will return and he is a king.
In LOTR Aaragorn returned and he was a king.


----------



## Rangerdave (May 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Pontifex _
> *No, but I have it and I've thought of reading it. Today I acquired a book called Zen and the Art of Archery, but I'm not sure if it is similar to '..Motorcycle Maintenance'. *



You picked up a wonderful book, I have it myself. But sadly it is nothing like Motorcycle Maintainance. Believe me, it has nothing to do with either motorcycles or zen; but you will never look at the word "quality" the same way again.

happy reading
RD


----------



## My_Precious (May 27, 2002)

I think that Tolkien did not intend to put any symbology into the "LoTR"... One of his students gave him a blank piece of paper instead of the essay he was supposed to write. Tolkien took it and wrote "in a hole in the ground lived a hobbit" or something like that... The influence the world had on Tolkien and therefore on his writings is another story...


----------



## morning star (May 27, 2002)

he may not have My_Precious. but some symbolism fell into the pages when he wrote it, or so it seems to me.


----------



## ReadWryt (May 28, 2002)

Again with the Aragorn/Christ thing...Because he was born to be a king, something that happens all the time in monarchy...hence Princes and Kings and all, this means that he is the Christ Figure and not the powerfull being who sacrificed himself for the good of the Fellowship and died, Rose again even more powerfull and lead the defeat of evil? I'm still seeing Aragorn as just this guy who was of royal bloodline and Gandalf as the Christ Figure, if one must be had in this tale...*shrug*


----------



## Rangerdave (May 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by morning star _
> *he may not have My_Precious. but some symbolism fell into the pages when he wrote it, or so it seems to me. *



Having had the pleasure of interviewing a number of Aurthors, I have found that writers are generally the last ones to see the symbolism in their work. Harlan Elison once remarked that any symbols found in his work would be considered additions and he demanded royalties.

And that is exactly the point. Most symbols are personal to the reader and may or may not reflect the opinions of the author. Maybe Moby D_i_ck is a symbol for the savageness of civilized man, or maybe Melville just kinda liked whales. The world will never know. So if you have found a symbol that helps you make sense of the world I think that is a truly wonderful thing, just don't get upset if some of us don't see it the same way.

RD


----------



## Theoden (May 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by morning star _
> *he may not have, but some symbolism fell into the pages when he wrote it, or so it seems to me. *



I think you are right. If Tolkien ment it or not, the symbolisim is there.


----------



## Lantarion (May 28, 2002)

Yes, it is inevitable. But I think it might be a bit of a waste of time (no offense or anything) to look for metaphors where there are none.


----------



## ReadWryt (May 28, 2002)

> Yes, it is inevitable. But I think it might be a bit of a waste of time (no offense or anything) to look for metaphors where there are none.



Wait, so what you are saying is that , yes, there are cases of symbology in the books but it's a waste of time to look for it where it isn't? Well of COURSE it is...it's a waste of time to look for your Car Keys where THEY aren't, but by your own admission it is inevitable that they would end up in the books, yet you continue to say that they did not... Am I the only one confused by this?


----------



## Anarchist (May 28, 2002)

If Tolkien lived to see the discussion we have in this forum about his work he would wonder: "Have I ever wrote about these things those guys are talking about?" I mean, where the heck do we find all those things we talk about over here? Perhaps every piece of literature awakes our inner self and make us search into our mind for answers rather than in the book. Now ReadWryt who is confused?

Perhaps Tolkien didn't intent to put symbolisms in his work but that was inevitable. It's impossible not to be infuenced by other writtings, facts, myths or legends of his time. Yes, he was a genius, but if you think about it, his work wasn't made from scratch. As I said, the symbolisms are inevitable, but their existence doesn't decrease his work, it only makes it better.


----------



## LadyGaladriel (May 28, 2002)

> Having had the pleasure of interviewing a number of Aurthors, I have found that writers are generally the last ones to see the symbolism in their work.



Not being nosy but is that your job? Coz it sounds really great and I wouldn't mind doing that


----------



## Rangerdave (May 28, 2002)

No my Lady Galadriel, I wish it were my job. Most of my interviews were conducted as research for my disertation. I start teaching college European and British history with the next fall semester.

RD


----------



## morning star (May 29, 2002)

Sorry,I was not trying to force my opinion on anyone,
I was just trying to state my opinion.


----------



## Rangerdave (May 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by morning star _
> *Sorry,I was not trying to force my opinion on anyone,
> I was just trying to state my opinion. *



Never said you were. I personally think its wonderful that you are analytical and intelligent enough to have an opinion that you feel strongly about. That puts you ahead of 99.9% of the gereneral population. 
(All Forum Members are also in this upper .1%....Well most anyway)
All I am saying is that opinions, like symbols, are unique to the individual. There is not concrete right or wrong involved. If I don't agree with someone, thats my problem. People should be free to think and believe what they wish. Its not a sin to think.

As Lazerus Long said "The only sin is hurting other people unjustly. Hurting yourself isn't sinful, just stupid. 

Enjoy, and keep thinkin'
RD


----------



## ReadWryt (May 30, 2002)

Whoah...RD reads Heinlein...COOL!


----------



## Rangerdave (May 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ReadWryt _
> *Whoah...RD reads Heinlein...COOL! *




But of coures I do. The Old Masters can still teach valuable lessons. I consider Heinlein to be the father of Modern Science-Fiction. If I ever get to teach a literature class, I plan to make Stranger In A Strage Land required reading. 

I suggest it to anyone out there as well.

Talk about Christ References.

RD


----------



## ReadWryt (May 30, 2002)

I grew up in a household where my parents kept the TV in their bedroom and wheeled it out for the evening news, special events and every week for "Rowan and Martin's Laugh-In" until the Apollo missions, so my misspent youth was peppered with copious quanities of Heinlein, Tolkien and the complete works of Zane Gray in hardback original editions left to me by my giant red haired swedish grandfather. The combination of Science Fiction, Fantasty (Mythology) and Western stories made me realize that it wasn't Wiz-Bang technology and space travel, or Magic and Chivalry, nor was it the romance of the old west that drew me to literature, but the fact that all these diverse genre share in the study of the human condition, test the reader by placing them in precarious situations and introduce the reader to different types of people and thought that one would not otherwise find in daily life.

I wouldn't trade the long hours of sitting in my back yard, radio tuned to the classical station with all that music I didn't understand but that I felt, for whatever reason, was the right music for reading and plugging away at "Starman Jones" or "Silvermane and Other Stories" or "The Hobbit" and feeling frustrated that the sunlight forced be indoors in the waning hours of the day. I encourage reading, by and to children, not only for the entertainment value but for the intimacy...in the case of reading to children, it has as much to do with showing sacrifice and interest as it does with planting the seed of literature, and where reading by themselves is concerned I feel that, aside from brushing teeth and washing behind one's ears, it is the earliest act we teach kids that deals with them doing something important for themselves...

Ok, I'm off the soapbox now...Hehehe


----------

