# Are Animals in Middle-earth sentient?



## CirdanLinweilin (Oct 21, 2022)

I keep thinking of the fox that was watching the characters sleeping and wondering about them. As if it had sentient thought.

I know the eagles are, in some way, but is the fox? Animals like him?

Please discuss.


P.S. MODS please feel free to move this to the correct forum if this is the wrong book. I was confused as to whether it was in The Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings.

CL


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## grendel (Oct 21, 2022)

It was in LotR, when Frodo, Sam and Pippin were making their way to Buckland. And I have occasionally thought of that fox also. I can't remember another animal, in the original Tolkien writings (LotR and Hobbit) anyway, who was associated with cogent thought. The two Rohan horses lent to Aragorn and Legolas seemed to understand Gandalf when he spoke to them, but we have no insight as to whether or not they _thought_ anything. Interesting topic.


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## Ent (Oct 21, 2022)

CirdanLinweilin said:


> I know the eagles are, in some way, but is the fox? Animals like him?



This is a difficult question and I'm sure others will add to it.
This from the Valaquenta (Silmarillion) -
"Do then any of the Valar suppose that I did not hear all the Song, even the least sound of the least voice? Behold! When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, *and some will dwell therein*, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared. For a time: *while the Firstborn are in their power, and while the Secondborn are young.”*

Certainly this is where the Ents came from: directly from Yavanna's additions during the Singing, and the spirits her later thought would call from afar when the Firstborn awoke, and would dwell within the trees (Ents) having them as protectors (shepherds) of the Trees and forests. But the clear indication is that spirits from afar would dwell within the animalia as well.

Yet it says "while the Firstborn are in their power...and Secondborn are young..." and I'm not sure how to evaluate that.

If only in those times, then how do we have Ents remaining in the Third Age? 
And certainly there were wolves and wargs that were "sentient" enough to talk in the Third Age... corruptions of Sauron for the most part...begin while he was still serving Melkor. 

So there are indications "it's possibly so." Yet if the sentient ones were only those indwelt by the spirits from afar summoned by Yavanna's thought, were they sentient on their own without the spirits? It would not seem so.

Against that we this issue: 
Clearly the Ents were indwelt by the Spirits... and the Elves taught the Ents speech.

BUT - the Elves were also those who "awakened the trees and taught them to talk". 

The Ents were 'awakened' by the spirits that indwelt them. But the Trees the Elves awakened.. like the 'hourns' most likely... spoke differently than the Ents and only to the Ents. So... were those trees also 'indwelt by spirits' but of a different kind... so the Elves could 'awaken' them? Or were they truly 'awakened TREES' and to a very small degree possibly 'sentient'. Certainly they could move and relocate and such... and become more chatty and less chatty... (per Treebeard). But 'sentience'? What is our definition?

Most literally, sentience is simply defined as: sentient condition or character; capacity for sensation or feeling.
From another (Cambridge) dictionary: "the quality of being able to experience feelings:"

In that sense ALL animals are sentient. But I don't think that's your meaning here. 

All animals have a certain 'thinking' ability... more than we give them credit for. But is even that the sentience you mean?

There are difficulties both in the text, and in the definition of 'sentience'... that leave us saying "yes" in one sense, and most likely "no" in another. 

Oops... do we enter the realm of 'opinion' again here? Lets wait for others to chime in and see.


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## CirdanLinweilin (Oct 21, 2022)

grendel said:


> It was in LotR, when Frodo, Sam and Pippin were making their way to Buckland.


Ohh okay cool thank you for letting me know. I was wondering when it was.


CL


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## Starbrow (Oct 21, 2022)

In _The Hobbit,_ the thrush at the Lonely Mountain was capable of understanding speech. And the ravens could understand and speak with the dwarves.


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## Ent (Oct 21, 2022)

And let's not forget Shelob and the rest of Ungoliant's brood.


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## CirdanLinweilin (Oct 21, 2022)

Starbrow said:


> In _The Hobbit,_ the thrush at the Lonely Mountain was capable of understanding speech. And the ravens could understand and speak with the dwarves.


Oh right, forgot about those!

CL


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 21, 2022)

Yes, the Mirkwood spiders were infuriated by Bilbo calling them "Attercop".

The early chapters of LOTR are still somewhat in _Hobbit _territory, where there are many examples, such as those cited above. Gandalf understood the speech of the wargs, where Bilbo did not, but they had also been "planning" a raid on settlements with the goblins, so they apparently could talk with each other.

Bilbo _could _understand Roac, who was using common speech. But then, ravens in our world can be taught speech-- though I never heard that of a thrush!

Besides the horses of Rohan mentioned above, we have Tom Bombadil and the ponies, which are called "intelligent" -- but maybe only after Tom talked with them?

And then there are the Elves, as alluded to by The Enting. Sam seems to be only half-jesting, when he says Bill would start talking, if he spent any more time in Rivendell.

It's a tangled but interesting subject; I wouldn't be surprised to learn Tolkien had written an essay somewhere about it -- maybe in NoME? What about those dancing bears in Numenor?

By the way, CL, it seems you're not the only one with an interest:


cfp | call for papers


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 21, 2022)

CirdanLinweilin said:


> I keep thinking of the fox that was watching the characters sleeping and wondering about them. As if it had sentient thought.
> 
> I know the eagles are, in some way, but is the fox? Animals like him?
> 
> Please discuss.


To a degree. Though they don't have souls. I believe this is in accordance with Catholic thought, though I can't vouch for that.


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## CirdanLinweilin (Oct 22, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> To a degree. Though they don't have souls. I believe this is in accordance with Catholic thought, though I can't vouch for that.


Funnily enough, I am Catholic and I completely forgot that Tolkien was as well when writing this post XD.


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## Lósendir Elsurion (Oct 22, 2022)

It depends.
For some animals there are hints that they are sentient. Some possess the ability to speak or at least understand human speech. This ability is not like that of _our_ animal pet's. They understand us because of conditioning to words, sounds and other paraverbal communication. This is different for some animals in ME and requires a certain level of intelligence.
Some animals in ME are able to talk, like wargs or Ungoliant's descendants. However for those it could be argued that they have this ability only because of Morgoth's corruption or because Ungoliant as an evil spirit could.
For "regular" animals the most noticeable examples are horses. Shadowfax, as a Mearas, was more intelligent than an average horse. Mearas were brought to ME by Orome and are said to be able to understand speech. Because they were originally from Aman, they are a special case though!
Then there's Bill. According to Gandalf he "learned" things in Rivendell and was able to find his way back to Bree. The horses in Rivendell might also be special cases since they live under the special circumstances of Rivendell, which is described by Elrond as a "place of learning". But this tells us that regular horses are able to expand their intelligence in an environment that caters to their need to intellectually evelove. This should require some sort of sentience.
Lastly in "The nature of Middle-Earth" it is said that the animals that lived on Elenna before the Edain arrived were very different from animals elsewhere. Even predatorian animals behaved more "friendly" and lived in peaceful cohabitation with the numenorians.

In contrast to this we could also see "sentience" as equivalent to "fea" and Iluvatar only granted "fea" to very few animals. That would mean that apart from the great eagles and Huan there a no _known_ sentient animals .

In conclusion, it depends on the definition of "sentience", but some animals are shown to possess a form of intelligence one could associate with "sentience", while some are said to have been granted "fea", but there is no definitive proof all/most animals are sentient.


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## CirdanLinweilin (Oct 22, 2022)

Lósendir Elsurion said:


> It depends.
> For some animals there are hints that they are sentient. Some possess the ability to speak or at least understand human speech. This ability is not like that of _our_ animal pet's. They understand us because of conditioning to words, sounds and other paraverbal communication. This is different for some animals in ME and requires a certain level of intelligence.
> Some animals in ME are able to talk, like wargs or Ungoliant's descendants. However for those it could be argued that they have this ability only because of Morgoth's corruption or because Ungoliant as an evil spirit could.
> For "regular" animals the most noticeable examples are horses. Shadowfax, as a Mearas, was more intelligent than an average horse. Mearas were brought to ME by Orome and are said to be able to understand speech. Because they were originally from Aman, they are a special case though!
> ...


Oh okay cool that makes sense. Thank you for the explanation ☺️.

CL


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