# Half elves



## Anamatar IV (Dec 15, 2002)

How does a half elven like Elrond or Elros decide which race they will be? 

Would they just say "I want to be mortal" and poof they are?

Obviously they can't go to Aman and decide since mortals are not allowed to set foot there. Is there a ritual or something?


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## Maeglin (Dec 15, 2002)

oh come on Anamatar at least give Rasec credit for asking that ingenius quetion, anyway that was originally a question Rasec asked of me and Anamatar.


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## Rasec (Dec 15, 2002)

Yes, here I am. =) I don't mind that Anamatar asked this. He did it for me. Or maybe not?  

'Cesar.


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## Anamatar IV (Dec 17, 2002)

still no answer...hey Anc didnt you say you would say something here?


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## Din (Dec 17, 2002)

i would say (unfortunetly without a quote from the book) that the choice of a half elf is probly just a matter of will. The one decided to be elf; the other to be man. Just as Arwen decided to give up her immortality for Aragorn.


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## Anamatar IV (Dec 17, 2002)

I understand it was a matter of will but exactly _how_ would one go about doing that?

At like 100 years old would they say "I will be an elf"?

Probably not since if they chose to be mortal half their life is gone already and they might die RIGHT afterwards.

So it must have taken place earlier in their lives. but how?


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## Maeglin (Dec 17, 2002)

Hey Anamatar I just thought of something, but its just a theory and I have absolutely nothing to back it up. But maybe it all depends on who they decide to marry. Earendil chose a mortal wife and then he was mortal, Elrond chose an elvish wife and he was elf, and Elros chose a mortal wife (though I don't know who it was) and he was mortal, and Luthien chose a mortal husband and was mortal, Arwen chose a mortal husband and she became mortal, so you see the pattern..... 
But the only problem with what you said before Anamatar about deciding to be mortal all of a sudden and then dying RIGHT after does not seem to work, because Arwen was a few hundred years old, and I think Luthien was too, when they got married. So it doesn't necessarily have to be early on in their lives, because Arwen lived for a very long time after she forsake her people, as did Luthien if I'm not mistaken. Anyway, its just a theory.
Glorf


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## Tar-Elenion (Dec 17, 2002)

Earendil and Elwing were both Half-elves and both chose 'immortality'.
Elrond chose 'immortality' 3500 years before he wed.
Elros probably chose 'mortality' before he wed, but this is not known for sure.
Arwen was not 'immortal' since she had not yet made her Choice.


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## Maeglin (Dec 17, 2002)

Like I said, its just a theory.


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## Orodreth (Dec 17, 2002)

So if an half-elf who decides to be an elf weds an elf and has a child, what race would that child be?


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## BrandonBrassbow (Dec 18, 2002)

> So if an half-elf who decides to be an elf weds an elf and has a child, what race would that child be?



full elf


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## Tar-Elenion (Dec 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Orodreth _
> So if an half-elf who decides to be an elf weds an elf and has a child, what race would that child be?



Elrond was a Half-elf (Peredhel), and he wed Celebrian (fully Elven), and their children were Half-elves (Peredhil).


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## Gothmog (Dec 18, 2002)

Elrond and Elros were given the choice by the Valar after the War of Wrath. They were able to speak with the Valar directly. As for the Children of these two, those of Elros had to abide by his choice and be bound to the fate of Men. In the case of the Children of Elrond, these were also given the choice of which Kindred to by judged with. However, it seems that they could not make this choice until Elrond left Middle-earth.


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## Rasec (Dec 18, 2002)

Interesting, Gothmog. But yet it did not answer my question entirely. Elrond and Elrod were able to speak with the Valar, but what about the other ones? If they were not able to speak directly with the Valar, how did they turn either mortal or immortal?

'Rasec.


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## Gothmog (Dec 19, 2002)

The Half-Elven who were given the choice were Earendil and Elwing, their children Elrond and Elros and the children of Elrond - Elrohir, Elladan and Arwen Undomiel.

Earendil and Elwing both sailed to Aman and spoke to the Valar there and there were given the choice.

After the War of Wrath the Valar gave the choice to Elrond and Elros.

Elrohir, Elladan and Arwen would live with the youth of the Eldar until such time as Elrond left Middle-earth. They did not need to talk to the Valar as their choice would be either to leave with their father and go to the West as the Firstborn or remain in Middle-earth as the Secondborn.

So had Elrond remained in Middle-earth for longer Arwen could have sailed with him to the West after the death of Aragorn and been counted as one of the Firstborn.


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## Orodreth (Dec 19, 2002)

So did Elrohir and Elladan choose to be elves? I've always wondered what happened to them.


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## Rasec (Dec 19, 2002)

Only the ones you mentioned were given the choice? Well, then you explained everything very clearly. Thanks, Gothmog. I thought that many more half-elves had the choice to be either mortal or immortal.
See you soon,

'Rasec.


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## Anamatar IV (Dec 20, 2002)

yes, thank you Gothmog.

But along these lines I have another question--I dont think the sons of Elrond were with him when he left middle-earth...but I could be wrong. Now them two were elven, right?


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## Gothmog (Dec 21, 2002)

Arwen is the only child of Elrond that we have certain knowledge of. In the case of Elladan and Elrohir, all that we have is the statements that "They delayed their choice and remained in Rivendell for a time after the departure of Elrond". I have seen nothing in my reading so far to show for sure what did happen to them after this. If they stayed in Middle-earth for too long they would have aged as did Men and therefore they would have died.

I would say that if they chose to be among the Firstborn they must have left not later than when Celeborn of Lothlorien took ship to the west. But that is just my (not at all humble  ) opinion.

Hope that is of some help.


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## Rasec (Dec 21, 2002)

Yes, Gothmog, it did help. 


> "They delayed their choice and remained in Rivendell for a time after the departure of Elrond".


If it is exactly what is written by Tolkien, then I myself think it is obvious they chose to be immortal. "...remained in Rivendell FOR A TIME after the departure of Elrond" - for me it means that they left some time after Elrond. Doesn't it seem obvious?

See you soon,
'Rasec.


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## Earendil (Dec 22, 2002)

yeah because there is nothing that says they stayed and so they chose immortality and followed Elrond afterwards....good logic Rasec!


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## Maeglin (Dec 23, 2002)

Oooh Oooh I found a quote that may back up this argument some more: 

From the Prologue to The Lord of the Rings:


> There, though Elrond had departed, his sons remained, together with some of the High-elven folk. It is said that Celeborn went to dwell there after the departure of Galadriel; but there is no record of the day when at last he sought the Grey Havens, and with him went the last living memory of the Elder Days in Middle-earth.



Thats the very last paragraph in the prologue if anyone wants to know more specifically where it is.


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## Rasec (Dec 23, 2002)

So... does this mean they stayed or they left? Because it says that they remained, but then it sayd that Celeborn left, and all the Elder Days went with him - This may mean that all the remaining elves went with him. Or can it not?
Well, just a thought. See you...

'Rasec.


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## Anamatar IV (Dec 23, 2002)

well that quote doesnt tell us much about the sons of Elrond. It says the last of the Elder Days left but if they didnt leave then they would be mortals, not elves.


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## Maeglin (Dec 23, 2002)

Well yes that is true they would be mortal, but they would still be part of the Elder days, for their father was of the Elder days and it is in their blood, so I believe that Arwen was of the Elder days as well, her brothers and Celeborn probably left some time after she died, so therefore all of the Elder days went with him, I know I cannot be sure, but I am just assuming and it makes sense to me anyway....


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## Maedhros (Dec 28, 2002)

The most probable outcome is that both Elladan and Elrohir decided to be counted amognst men. Look at this interesting debate.
Elladan and Elrohir


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## FoolOfATook (Dec 28, 2002)

I think that you have to dramatically hold a dying ally in your arms, and scream to the heavens "Let my grace pass on to him". Or something like that- better ask Liv to fill us in on the exact details. Now, who has her e-mail address and phone number...


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## Lasgalen (Dec 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Tar-Elenion _
> *Earendil and Elwing were both Half-elves and both chose 'immortality'.
> *


I believe Earendil did not choose immortality but rather the choice was made for him. He sailed to Aman and was not permitted to return.


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## goldmare (Jan 1, 2003)

Did Aragorn and Arwen have kids, and if so, would they be half-elven or completely mortal?


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## Sarah (Jan 1, 2003)

Where does it say that Elrond is half-elven?


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## Lasgalen (Jan 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by goldmare _
> *Did Aragorn and Arwen have kids, and if so, would they be half-elven or completely mortal? *



The way I understand it, the kids would be mortal. Arwen gave up her immortality so therefore her offspring do not have the same choice she had. For all practicle purposes, the kids had two mortal parents. That is how I see it anyway.


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## Rasec (Jan 4, 2003)

Yes, that's how I see it as well, and I guess it is right, for Arwen chose immortality, doesn't she?

See you later,
Rasec.


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## Elros Halfelven (Jan 5, 2003)

*The Children of Aragorn...*

...Had no choice, as the line of Elros had no choice, they would have the gift of men to look forward to, as is explained in the Akallabeth, they began to desire the everlasting life and to regret the choice of Elros.


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