# Do Orcs have souls?



## pippin le qer (Aug 25, 2022)

The souls/spirits of fallen Elves are gathered in the Halls of Mandos
howeverr Orcs are not created, as Evil cannot create, but only corrupt, but Orcs are corrupted Elves.
does that mean they still had een elvensoul, notwithstanding how black it may be?
And if that is so, what happened to the Orcs souls, were those too gathered in the Halls of Mandos ( and maybe cleaned from the corruption by Morgoth)?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 25, 2022)

This may have been one reason that led Tolkien to consider making them corrupted _men._

I don't know the answer, BTW.


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## Ent (Aug 25, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> This may have been one reason that led Tolkien to consider making them corrupted _men._
> 
> I don't know the answer, BTW.



The question comes up regularly throughout Tolkiendom, always reaching the same conclusions.
There are no definitive conclusions.

Tolkien vacillated much on the question, never providing any clear answer. Nor could Christopher come to a conclusion.

I would suspect this is in some other thread on this site already as well.

It will ever remain in the "Great Halls of Speculation", appearing here and there and from time to time to cover the same ground with the same end result.
Guard it well, Chief Cellrog....


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 25, 2022)

I think it's about time to change my profile banner. 😄


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## Ent (Aug 25, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I think it's about time to change my profile banner. 😄



but if you do, who can I pawn stuff onto to make it go away? 😁


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## Erestor Arcamen (Aug 25, 2022)

I found a few old threads (surprised?)

This one has a lot of good discussion:








So did orcs and dragons have souls or no?


Hey Friends, The topic of dragons really got me thinking about whether orcs and dragons have souls. Without using text (and I would appreciate some text as long as its without jabs) I will demonstrate why I believe they should and would have souls. Dragons were bred right? I've seen the words...




www.thetolkienforum.com





this one has some discussion, which I apparently commented on once even!








Immortal Orcs


I was just looking on the TolkienWiki website and it said that in some passage in LOTR one of Gorbag or Shagrat reminiscies about "The Great Seige", pressumably of the Last Alliance, meaning either that they were alive at the end of the Second Age or orcs pass tales down from generation to...




www.thetolkienforum.com





And the above thread is linked to this even older, archived thread. If you want it unarchived i can do that:








Are Orcs immortal?


its is said that Orcs where corrupted elves, well ive been woundering resently if their had the elvish imortality, or did they become mortal after thier corruption like the people of numenors (sp?) life span wanned when they began to defy the valar?




www.thetolkienforum.com





This one deals with the souls of orcs, eagles, Ents and Dwarves:








Dwarves, Ents, Eagles and Orcs


Hi there. Please forgive me if I am mistaken in anything I say but this is how I remember it. In the chapter "of aule and yavanna" dwarves are made by aule and then allowed to come to life (only when the elves do) but then also yavanna is allowed the Ents, but she doesn't literally create them...




www.thetolkienforum.com


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## Elthir (Aug 25, 2022)

Edit: Oh I didn't see *EA*'s post!

In one text -- in which JRRT seems to have decided, for the moment anyway -- that Orcs were beasts of humanized shape, he added that it remained possible that there was an Elvish strain in Orcs -- and that *"These may then even have been mated with beasts (sterile!) -- and later Men. Their life-span would be diminished. And dying they would go to Mandos and be held in prison till the End." *

Then Tolkien added a passage here, within which he stated simply that: *"Orcs are beasts and Balrogs corrupted Maiar."*

In any case, my _*opinion*_ is that Tolkien landed on Orks being corrupted *Men*, but any arguable evidence for this I will not now post in this post.


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## Ent (Aug 25, 2022)

Elthir said:


> Edit: Oh I didn't see *EA*'s post!
> 
> In one text -- in which JRRT seems to have decided -- for the moment -- that Orcs were beasts of humanized shape, he also added that it remained possible that there was an Elvish strain in Orcs -- and that *"These may then even have been mated with beasts (sterile!) -- and later Men. Their life-span would be diminished. And dying they would go to Mandos and be held in prison till the End." *
> 
> ...



Yeah. And the problem was even he always said "it is possible".... and "may have been..." and such as that. 
In other words, he had no clue for sure.

_Our speculations are futile until we have all the facts_ ....................................................................... Sherlock Holmes

And now, we can never have all the facts.



Well-aged Enting said:


> Yeah. And the problem was even he always said "it is possible".... and "may have been..." and such as that.
> In other words, he had no clue for sure.
> 
> _Our speculations are futile until we have all the facts_ ....................................................................... Sherlock Holmes
> ...



I know, I know - I'm too pragmatic and no fun at all.


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## Elthir (Aug 25, 2022)

Elthir said:


> In any case, my _*opinion*_ is that Tolkien landed on Orks being corrupted *Men*, but any arguable evidence for this I will not now post in this post.



I should revise this to: in my opinion Tolkien landed on Orks from corrupted Men, along with a number of Maiar-orcs.

Maiar-orcs being Orc-formed Maiar


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## Elthir (Aug 26, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> Yeah. And the problem was even he always said "it is possible".... and "may have been..." and such as that.
> In other words, he had no clue for sure.



But I'd like to note a distinction between the three "main" Orc texts (texts *8, 9, 10*) found in _Morgoth's Ring_: Text *8* and *9* are written by JRR Tolkien as author. Text *10* however, is written by an internal author (not Tolkien) and is a finished essay. And I think the internal-ness is notable here, as anything that seems even somewhat speculative can be attributed to internal speculation.

In other words, Tolkien himself might know, but he's going to jump into the mind of a character inside the legendarium and reveal "the truth" from that perspective.

I think it's similar to the scenario taken up into the _Constructed Silmarillion_: the author of _Quenta Silmarillion_ (again not Tolkien in this context) first "asks" who of the living has descended into the pits of Utumno, or explored the counsels of Melkor -- yet it is held true by the Wise of Eressea, and so on.

But we don't see readers questioning the Wise of Eressea, despite the previous sentence.

Back to text *10* in _Morgoth's Ring_, Christopher Tolkien even remarks that we "appear" to have his father's "final" view on the question.

Okay, CJRT then notes his "however" -- citing two later texts, and a draft for the first of these two -- for consideration. To be fair, Christopher Tolkien does not say any of these three notes (actually only two are up for such consideration: the draft section of the first text, plus the second text] necessarily topples Tolkien's final decision. And for myself, I don't think they do.

Moreover, there's yet another late text to consider, where once again Tolkien deals with the matter from an internal perspective: here the Eldar say that surely Morgoth *"bred Orcs from various kinds of Men"* The Druedain, author's note 5

The Eldar say this. Very different from what the Wise of Eressea "had said" according to a much earlier idea. This statement hails from a "late" text, and it ". . . belongs to the final period of my father's writing on Middle-earth, together with (list of other works including The Druedain . . . ) rather than to the time of the publication of _The Lord of the Rings_ and the years following it." Christopher Tolkien, Introduction to _Unfinished Tales_, Commentary, Part III, I _The Disaster of the Gladden Fields_

Of course, obviously we don't have "final" as in published by JRRT himself -- but that's rather a big category, considering how we readers chat about other stuff never published by JRRT himself.

Anyway, that is mostly why my opinion above is what it is 

And the Maiar-orcs seem pretty solid, appearing in all three Orc texts *8, 9, 10.*

And if there's something in _The Nature of Middle-Earth _that needs further consideration here . . .

. . . then someone let me know please! I haven't fully consumed NOME yet, nor fully digested those parts I've read


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## Ent (Aug 26, 2022)

Elthir said:


> But I'd like to note a distinction between the three "main" Orc texts (texts *8, 9, 10*) found in _Morgoth's Ring_: Text *8* and *9* are written by JRR Tolkien as author. Text *10* however, is written by an internal author (not Tolkien) and is a finished essay. And I think the internal-ness is notable here, as anything that seems even somewhat speculative can be attributed to internal speculation.
> 
> In other words, Tolkien himself might know, but he's going to jump into the mind of a character inside the legendarium and reveal "the truth" from that perspective.
> 
> ...



Thank you for your well-informed commentary.
I'll extract all this and copy it into a file, so when I get Orcs back to the top of my research pile, I can sort through it all again, go to the sources, and come to some conclusions if possible. 

As you know, I'm big on following my best friend's advice:
"_I checked and corroborated all the facts which were mentioned_" ...................................................... Sherlock Holmes

If I can remove this from the "Great Halls..." (at least for myself) I rather think S-eS would be appreciative.


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## Ent (Aug 26, 2022)

pippin le qer said:


> And if that is so, what happened to the Orcs souls, were those too gathered in the Halls of Mandos ( and maybe cleaned from the corruption by Morgoth)?




*SO everyone... if we get back to the 'original thread" question from pippin le qer,
and couple it with your opinion below Elthir,* 



Elthir said:


> I should revise this to: in my opinion Tolkien landed on Orks from corrupted Men, along with a number of Maiar-orcs.
> Maiar-orcs being Orc-formed Maiar



What would you say that might mean with regard to what happened to the Orc Souls?
So far we've spent our energies on what the orcs actually were. Poor pippin le qer may have given up on us by now.


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## Elthir (Aug 26, 2022)

If the concept of Orcs made from Men (plus some Maiar-orcs) is "true" . . . and then I consider the question of what might happen to the spirits of these dead Orcs-from-Men . . .

. . . for now, I would say . . .

. . . leave it to Eru 

And then . . . run!


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## Ent (Aug 26, 2022)

Elthir said:


> If the concept of Orcs made from Men (plus some Maiar-orcs) is "true" . . . and then I consider the question of what might happen to the spirits of these dead Orcs-from-Men . . .
> 
> . . . for now, I would say . . .
> 
> ...



Dare I say, I would wholeheartedly agree??!!


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## Elthir (Aug 26, 2022)

*LOL!* I could add that I don't think even Morgothian corruption should alter the _ultimate_ destiny of the Mannish_ fea_ (the Elvish word _fea_ roughly equivalent to "spirit" for anyone wondering). . . but beyond that . . . I'm still making tracks!

🐾

🐾

🐾


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 26, 2022)

_*RUN!
*_


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## ZehnWaters (Aug 30, 2022)

Elthir said:


> I should revise this to: in my opinion Tolkien landed on Orks from corrupted Men, along with a number of Maiar-orcs.
> 
> Maiar-orcs being Orc-formed Maiar


Boldogs, yes. I personally favour a blended origin as we know they existed prior to the awakening of men. It would also serve to further diverge them from either race. If Orc-shaped Maiar were involved it would explain why they so radically changed appearance. The introduction of men means that orcs are also mortal, which makes more sense (they breed faster than elves too).

If I had to guess on the status of a soul and what happens to it, I'd say Eru, being the benevolent being He is, would likely take into consideration their stated of forced corruption and provide some kind way for them to be redeemed or purified. Though it's impossible for us to say how that might look.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 30, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> Boldogs, yes. I personally favour a blended origin as we know they existed prior to the awakening of men. It would also serve to further diverge them from either race. If Orc-shaped Maiar were involved it would explain why they so radically changed appearance. The introduction of men means that orcs are also mortal, which makes more sense (they breed faster than elves too).
> 
> If I had to guess on the status of a soul and what happens to it, I'd say Eru, being the benevolent being He is, would likely take into consideration their stated of forced corruption and provide some kind way for them to be redeemed or purified. Though it's impossible for us to say how that might look.


Do the féar of Orcs even go to the Halls of Mandos? Because contrary to your point of orcs being mortal, they were originally Eldar that were corrupted and turned to the dark side - does this mean they lose their immortality? So what of Balrogs, corrupted Maiar? Do they lose their immortality also? If Orcs were corrupted Eldar, considering that the féar of the Eldar go to the Halls of Mandos after they fall, would the féar of Orcs go there also? And what would Mandos proclaim and judge upon those corrupted féar? Any thoughts?


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 30, 2022)

I do not think that Orcs would be housed in the same resting place as the many faithful Elves who lived and grew in immortality and gladness, or suffering in great battles, valiant and true. Orcs were thought of as being mortal men corrupted, and yet I believe it is stated that they are indeed Elves and not men at all. It is possible, perhaps even plausible, that Illuvatar may not take their immortality, but rather they would submit it to loss for the bidding of their Evil deeds and choices. What is in the Light is that which grows and flourishes, and what is in the Dark, will die. Thus, being away in the Darkness of Evil and in the Shadow of Morgoth, they would be surrending the Hope of Immortality, or Valinor. I know not the thoughts of Mandos-- SORRY!


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 31, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> I do not think that Orcs would be housed in the same resting place as the many faithful Elves who lived and grew in immortality and gladness, or suffering in great battles, valiant and true. Orcs were thought of as being mortal men corrupted, and yet I believe it is stated that they are indeed Elves and not men at all. It is possible, perhaps even plausible, that Illuvatar may not take their immortality, but rather they would submit it to loss for the bidding of their Evil deeds and choices. What is in the Light is that which grows and flourishes, and what is in the Dark, will die. Thus, being away in the Darkness of Evil and in the Shadow of Morgoth, they would be surrending the Hope of Immortality, or Valinor. I know not the thoughts of Mandos-- SORRY!


A good explanation, and 'tis partially what I had thought. Yet indeed, you would not know the thoughts of Mandos - I suppose only he himself would.


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## Elthir (Aug 31, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Orcs were thought of as being mortal men corrupted, and yet I believe it is stated that they are indeed Elves and not men at all.



Just as an aside, we have an external distinction here: basically, and briefly, when Tolkien decided that Morgoth could not simply make Orcs (an idea that JRRT held to be true for some time), he decided that Orcs must rather be corruptions of other beings, and he wrote various texts about their possible origins.

Thus Orcs from Elves (as the Wise of Eressea believed) was only one idea among several. And Orcs from Men (and some Maiar-orcs) is a different conception, one found in _Text X, Myths Transformed, Morgoth's Ring._

Tolkien was fairly free to tinker with the concept of the origin of Orcs, as well as the First Age Timeline, as he had not yet himself _published_ a definitive answer.


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## Ent (Aug 31, 2022)

Elthir said:


> Just as an aside, we have an external distinction here: basically, and briefly, when Tolkien decided that Morgoth could not simply make Orcs (an idea that JRRT held to be true for some time), he decided that Orcs must rather be corruptions of other beings, and he wrote various texts about their possible origins.
> 
> Thus Orcs from Elves (as the Wise of Eressea believed) was only one idea among several. And Orcs from Men (and some Maiar-orcs) is a different conception, one found in _Text X, Myths Transformed, Morgoth's Ring._
> 
> Tolkien was fairly free to tinker with the concept of the origin of Orcs, as well as the First Age Timeline, as he had not yet himself _published_ a definitive answer.



Indeed, my research here indicates this too is an entirely "Great Halls..." issue.... with many possibilities.
Even Saruman's additional corruptions cast no light on a 'final determination' of the origins of the Orcs themselves. (Nor in fact does it mean he was not just being a copycat in mixing orcs with men to begin with.)

The Haze wafts down the Halls, being disturbed by a gentle breeze of acknowledgement - but does not yield and clear away upon the matter.


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## ZehnWaters (Aug 31, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> Do the féar of Orcs even go to the Halls of Mandos? Because contrary to your point of orcs being mortal, they were originally Eldar that were corrupted and turned to the dark side - does this mean they lose their immortality? So what of Balrogs, corrupted Maiar? Do they lose their immortality also? If Orcs were corrupted Eldar, considering that the féar of the Eldar go to the Halls of Mandos after they fall, would the féar of Orcs go there also? And what would Mandos proclaim and judge upon those corrupted féar? Any thoughts?


I think the immortality was simply something that went away AS A RACE because of the introduction of men into the gene pool. Those original tormented elves might have still been immortal.


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## Elthir (Aug 31, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> Indeed, my research here indicates this too is an entirely "Great Halls..." issue.... with many possibilities.



But for further clarity, my post (21) was to try to generally explain the external nature of these texts,
in reaction to Varda's: _"and yet I believe it is stated that they are indeed Elves and not men at all."_

It is indeed "stated" (as in, once was stated), but Tolkien clearly had second thoughts about this idea
-- at one point, JRRT even noting: _Alter this orcs are not Elvish_, and proceeded to muse about what they might be, if not Elvish

I mean, given that we are in posthumously published waters, the stamp or merely "possible" could be said about a lot of stuff we Tolkien fans otherwise treat as fact; but in any case, for myself, I've not altered my opinion that the author ultimately landed on the idea of Orcs from Men (Tolkien realizing that he must revise the timeline to make it so).

In shorter: while various ideas are possible, judging by the arrow of time, I still think JRRT landed on Orcs from Men

(and the reasons I think so are given in an earlier post in this thread).


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## Ent (Aug 31, 2022)

Elthir said:


> But for further clarity, my post (21) was to try to generally explain the external nature of these texts,
> in reaction to Varda's: _"and yet I believe it is stated that they are indeed Elves and not men at all."_
> 
> It is indeed "stated" (as in, once was stated), but Tolkien clearly had second thoughts about this idea
> ...



I certainly acknowledge your statements, reasonings, and probable conclusions. And am thankful for them so I can pursue the details thoroughly as the time comes for me to do so. (It's on my list..!)

Meanwhile, as nearly as I can tell, the Tolkien World is not entirely and all in agreement... even on some of the more substantive sites... though I will be checking this more thoroughly soon. (I've observed the arguments apace unfortunately.)

So for me it still sits in the Haze of the Halls. (You'll forgive my slowness in drawing my own conclusions I trust...and even if I do, and they agree with yours, should I find they do not agree with certan "experts" who teach on Tolkien's works I have access to, I may still determine as Curator I must leave it in the Haze as well.)


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## Elthir (Aug 31, 2022)

Yes, while I agree that it's not an all agreed on fact (thus my opinion), I'm just trying to make a further distinction between mere possibility -- due to something never being published by JRRT himself -- as I would venture to say that all possibilities are not _necessarily_ created equal.

Or in short and more to the point: I welcome the debate -- from any and all, including noted Tolkien experts -- with respect to the "two" later texts that CJRT merely raises for consideration for such a debate -- that is, do these two texts actually undermine JRRT's final view here? Especially in light of
the late Note to _The Druedain_?

In my years on _Das Interweb_, I can't recall anyone even attempting to debate these two later texts. I've seen people raise them to echo the point (made by CJRT), that as always, it's not so simple, but I can't remember seeing anyone truly consider how compelling these are at possibly throwing a wrench into the works here.

I mean, as for later text II, for example, I don't think it's even close to compelling to think that Tolkien's mention of how he intends to spell _orc_ as _ork_ need mean he is going back to an early conception with respect to what orcs are made from, in origin. And unless I'm missing something here, that argument seems to me to dive into the "merely possible' lake again.

And to put it another way, if indeed the criterion for "hazy" is that JRRT never published X or Y (which I'm not sure you're saying it is), suddenly so much of what we Readers talk about as "fact" is going to fall into that category.

Or something?


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## Ent (Aug 31, 2022)

Elthir said:


> Or something?



I do agree with this part wholeheartedly. 😁

Just give me time. I don't even think I have access to all the different texts you refer to yet, nor am I certain my wooden brain could assimilate all the information at one sitting (standing in my case). 

That's why it's on 'my list'.


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## ZehnWaters (Aug 31, 2022)

Elthir said:


> In shorter: while various ideas are possible, judging by the arrow of time, I still think JRRT landed on Orcs from Men


This just kind of leaves us with them confoundingly appearing before the rising of the sun or moon.


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## Elthir (Aug 31, 2022)

On the other hand (*not arguing, just musing*), for example, if I can post a "fact" about Tolkien's last know idea about X, another bright, shiny Tolkien Reader might say something like: well, given that that's not how I approach the posthumously published corpus . . . 

. . . and then, if so, this imagined person and I are not necessarily all-agreed-upon as to whether or not such a fact is "true" in Middle-earth!

Anyway, I'm not the curator in any case 




ZehnWaters said:


> This just kind of leaves us with them confoundingly appearing before the rising of the sun or moon.



I meant _"arrow of time_" there as in: Tolkien's external timeline with respect to his ever-changing mind.

With respect to the internal timeline however, to me there is more than one tradition depending upon the source (authors of the source), including the Elvish tradition in which the Sun exists even before the Elves awake.

🐾


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## ZehnWaters (Aug 31, 2022)

Elthir said:


> On the other hand (*not arguing, just musing*), for example, if I can post a "fact" about Tolkien's last know idea about X, another bright, shiny Tolkien Reader might say something like: well, given that that's not how I approach the posthumously published corpus . . .
> 
> . . . and then, if so, this imagined person and I are not necessarily all-agreed-upon as to whether or not such a fact is "true" in Middle-earth!
> 
> ...



True, I always forget about his attempts at revising the world to having always been round. I'm not fond of it so I often just put it out of my mind.


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## Elthir (Aug 31, 2022)

In my opinion (as no doubt I've blathered about before), JRRT kept both conceptions -- one for _The Silmarillion_ (Sun and Moon as hailing from the Two Trees), and in other, more purely Elvish texts, the Two Trees gave light to Aman, but the Sun existed before the Elves awoke.

Similar concerning the shape of the World: *The Akallabêth *being a mixed tradition, appears to contain hints of a once flat world, while the Mannish tradition, *The Drowning of Anadûnê*, despite its various confusions, yet contains the Western Elves teaching the Numenoreans that the world was always round -- about which the King of Numenor intends to find out, but stuff happens before he does.

In both accounts, the "Straight Road" continues as a concept.


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