# How would Gandalf have entered Mordor?



## Noldor_returned (Oct 1, 2006)

I was re-reading tTT and I was thinking, how was Gandalf actually planning to sneak into Mordor? He must have had a basic idea, or at least one thought as to how he would accomplish it.

The Gates, I think can be ruled out. Even Gollum knew they couldn't get through that way. I don't think Gandalf would have tried.

So, what about Cirith Ungol? Did Gandalf have the knowledge to get them through? Or would he try the Iron Mountains?


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## Gordis (Oct 1, 2006)

It is an excellent question.

I think Gandalf planned to use Gollum as guide from the start, ever since he questioned the wretch in Mirkwood. Likely Legolas had to bring Gollum to Rivendell, but failed to do so, as Gollum had escaped.

Anyway, Gandalf knew that Gollum had to play a role in the Quest, so he must have hoped that Gollum would meet them and follow the Ring. He was not at all displeased when Gollum started following them in Moria.

I have a strong suspicion that the Big People - Aragorn, Boromir, Legolas and Gimli were supposed to go directly to Minas Tirith, while the four halflings had to go to Mordor on their own with Gollum as guide. I am not even sure that Gandalf planned to go to Mordor himself - most likely not.


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## Thorondor_ (Oct 1, 2006)

For Snaga, the ability/knowledge to go past the watchers implies the presence of tarks - Gondorians or those of Numenorean descent. Aragorn and Boromir would fit that description. Elrond also went to Mordor, so he might have passed whatever geography clues he had with either Aragorn, Legolas or Gandalf.



Gordis said:


> I have a strong suspicion that the Big People - Aragorn, Boromir, Legolas and Gimli were supposed to go directly to Minas Tirith, while the four halflings had to go to Mordor on their own with Gollum as guide. I am not even sure that Gandalf planned to go to Mordor himself - most likely not.


If anything, we are told in The ring goes south chapter that Legolas and Gimli will go to the passes of the mountains, and maybe beyond; later on, in the Great River, Boromir announces he will go to Minas Tirith, but for the rest of your theory, esspecially the last part , I find no evidence.


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## Alcuin (Oct 1, 2006)

Without jumping or flying over the mountains, there were only 4 ways into Mordor of which I am aware.
The Morannon and Isenmouthe – not a desirable means of entry because of the near-certainty of capture. Akin to attempting to sneak into a castle through its heavily-guarded gatehouse.
Morgul Pass (Cirith Morgul). I think this should included Cirith Ungol, and so it proved the best and possibly only practical means. Morgul Pass itself was guarded by Minas Morgul, from which regular patrols were sent: Gorbag’s troop of orcs was one of these. Cirith Ungol had its Tower at the top of the secondary pass, and of course Shelob to guard the way, a sentry from whom it would seem no one had ever escaped: even Gandalf was afraid when Faramir told him that Frodo had set out for Cirith Ungol.
In the south of the Ephel Dúath was a pass over the mountains from Near Harad into Nurn called the Nargil Pass. We know that it existed from Tolkien’s maps (see _The Treason of Isengard_), but it is not marked in the final maps, and so may have been dropped by Tolkien. In any case, had Gandalf led Frodo by that route, it would have taken them months longer to reach Orodruin.
Eastern Mordor via Khand or Rhûn. Eastern Mordor was an open plain. Rhûn was north and due east of it, Khand to the southeast. If going by the Nargil Pass took a long time, this would have taken even longer.
It is not clear how Gandalf intended to get into Mordor, but clearly Aragorn believed that Gandalf planned to go into Mordor with Frodo just as Aragorn planned all along to go to Minas Tirith. Aragorn considered it his duty to take up Gandalf’s work and go into Mordor with Frodo, but when the orcs seized Merry and Pippin in the Emyn Muil, after anguished contemplation Aragorn chose to follow them across Rohan.

Certainly there is nothing published that indicated how Gandalf planned to enter Mordor. He, Elrond, and Frodo consulted in Rivendell the ancient maps of that land prepared during the War of the Last Alliance and in the years following it. The inference must be that he planned to cross over by Cirith Morgul, but there is no way to prove that.

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Thorondor_ said:


> For Snaga, the ability/knowledge to go past the watchers implies the presence of tarks - Gondorians or those of Numenorean descent. Aragorn and Boromir would fit that description.


That’s an interesting observation. The implication is that Elves could _not_ pass the Two Watchers unaided. And there were also Silent Watchers in Morgul Vale, as Gorbag revealed in his conversation with Shagrat in “The Choices of Master Samwise” in _Two Towers_ a book before Sam reached Cirith Ungol, when he told Shagrat that, “‘our Silent Watchers were uneasy two days ago.’” Perhaps these were the figures at the head of the bridge spanning the Morgulduin “carven with cunning in forms human and bestial, but all corrupt and loathsome.” (“The Stairs of Cirith Ungol”, _Two Towers_)


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## Gordis (Oct 1, 2006)

At Part Galen Aragorn said:


> `The day has come at last,' he said: 'the day of choice which we have long delayed. What shall now become of our Company that has travelled so far in fellowship? Shall we turn west with Boromir and go to the wars of Gondor; or turn east to the Fear and Shadow; or shall we break our fellowship and go this way and that as each may choose? Whatever we do must be done soon. We cannot long halt here. The enemy is on the eastern shore, we know; but I fear that the Orcs may already be on this side of the water.'
> There was a long silence in which no one spoke or moved.
> 'Well, Frodo,' said Aragorn at last. `I fear that the burden is laid upon you. You are the Bearer appointed by the Council. Your own way you alone can choose. In this matter I cannot advise you. I am not Gandalf, and though I have tried to bear his part,* I do not know what design or hope he had for this hour, if indeed he had any. Most likely it seems that if he were here now the choice would still wait on you. Such is your fate.*'


It looks like Gandalf had no definite plan and would have relied on Frodo's decision as in the case of Moria.

Also from the fact that Aragorn asked Frodo to make the choice at Part Galen, we can deduce that Nargil pass - far to the South- was out of the question. Otherwise the Fellowship could have continued together to Gondor.

The same, by the way, applies to the Morgul pass. If it were the chosen destination, then the easiest way would be via Ceir Andros, Ithilien and so on.

As for rounding the eastern end of Ered Lithui, if it were the chosen destination, then going via Lorien and down the Anduin was a bad mistake. The easiest way would be via Mirkwood and down the River Running.

No, it looks like Gandalf relied entirely on chance and fate. And fate meant Gollum.


> I have not much hope that Gollum can be cured before he dies, but there is a chance of it. *And he is bound up with the fate of the Ring. My heart tells me that he has some part to play yet, for good or ill, before the end; and when that comes, the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many - yours not least.*



I am not sure Gollum did tell Gandalf how exactly he "escaped" from Mordor. Perhaps he kept that part secret. All Gandalf knew was that Gollum was captured in the Dead Marches. So it was not far from that place that Gollum's secret way could lie. It is not by accident that the fellowship traveled almost there and then the Choice was given to Frodo.

Also, remember how shocked Gandalf was when he finally learned the name of Gollum's secret way.


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## Alcuin (Oct 1, 2006)

Gordis, I don’t see any evidence that Gandalf intended to rely upon Gollum for guidance or as a guide into Mordor. I disagree with you that had Gandalf intended to cross at Minas Morgul he would have hewed to the west bank of Anduin beyond the Emyn Muil: crossing Anduin inside the territory of Gondor at Cair Andros and especially around Osgiliath or Emyn Arden would too easily have been marked. Only the Rangers of Ithilien made secret crossings. Using the Rangers of Ithilien to cross meant going to Minas Tirith and obtaining Denethor’s blessing of the plan, something we know would have been refused, though perhaps Gandalf might not have realized that until too late; or else suborning Faramir or some other Rangers to take them across despite Denethor’s orders. 

At the beginning of “Farewell to Lórien” in _Fellowship of the Ring_, Aragorn told Celeborn,


> ‘We have not decided our course. Beyond Lothlórien I do not know what Gandalf intended to do. Indeed I do not think that even he had any clear purpose.’


This clearly shows that Gandalf had not discussed any plan for entering Mordor with Aragorn, the one person with whom he was most likely to take counsel on such an effort: Aragorn had been in the Ephel Dúath and Morgul Vale in the past two years, probably knew some of the Rangers of Ithilien or at least of their movements, knew the lay of the land and was personally familiar with many of Mordor’s defenses. 

I don’t disagree with you about the Nargil Pass or eastern Mordor: these are of out the question, though Nargil might have been the softest target. (Crossing Nurn and Gorgoroth from the south might have been another matter.) I cannot imagine that Gandalf would try the Morannon, which would have been little different from knocking at the front door of Barad-dûr. That leaves only the Morgul Pass. But going through Minas Tirith was inviting scrutiny and detection by Sauron: for the sake of secrecy, the Emyn Muil is the southernmost place a traveler could have safely crossed Anduin without being marked. Had the Ring-bearer passed through Minas Tirith, he would unquestionably have been recognized as a Halfling, just as Pippin was, attracting more attention than almost any plan of stealth could have overcome: even his absence would have been noticed had he once entered the City.

But nowhere do I see any indication that Gandalf intended to use Gollum as a guide, whatever his heart foretold in Hobbiton.


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## Noldor_returned (Oct 1, 2006)

Maybe Gandalf was debating inside his head and going through all the possibilities. Then, once he had one direction which he thought was better than others, he would talk it over with Aragorn. If Aragorn agreed, that would be the chosen path, but if Aragorn said to take another way and managed to convince Gandalf, I'm sure they would go in that direction. So maybe we also need to ask ourselves which way Aragorn would have gone.

Aragorn had travelled the area in his search for Gollum, but would not have the same knowledge. Perhaps, as Gordis said, Gandalf and Aragorn relied on Gollum. Although this may not be able to be proven with direct evidence and quotes, there is enough circumstantial evidence to agree with this.


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## Ravenna (Oct 3, 2006)

I am of the opinion that Gandalf had no definite plan to use Gollum directly, he felt that Gollum had a 'part to play', but not to my mind what that part may be. Much is written by Tolkien about people being 'fated' to do something or accomplish something, but nobody ever knows _*HOW*_ they are fated to do it and I don't see Gollum's case as being any different. Perhaps knowing where Gollum had been caught leaving Moria, he believed that by heading in that general direction, the fellowship, (or what portion of it decided to go with Frodo), would be able to locate this little known way.

I know little of the other entryways to Moria but I feel that Gandalf did not have a plan to use Cirith Ungol, he seems to be appalled when he learns that Frodo has gone that way and wonders why.

Whatever his plans, he had certainly not talked about them and and Aragorn said he believed that Gandalf had 'no clear plan in mind'. I suppose it is just possible that Gandalf had some knowledge of another way into Mordor that was not generally known and would perhaps be less guarded.


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## Thorondor_ (Oct 4, 2006)

Gordis said:


> I am not sure Gollum did tell Gandalf how exactly he "escaped" from Mordor.


Both Gandalf and Aragorn, though they do not know, they presume, at the council of Elrond, that Gollum was let loose so as to bring Sauron's spies closer to them.


The council of Elrond said:


> and since his servants have pursued it almost to our door, he soon will know, already he may know, even as I speak, that we have it here.
> ...
> And I do not doubt that he was allowed to leave Mordor on some evil errand.





Gordis said:


> Also, remember how shocked Gandalf was when he finally learned the name of Gollum's secret way.


I disagree with your interpretation:


The siege of Gondor said:


> - Cirith Ungol? Morgul Vale? he said. The time, Faramir, the time? When did you part with them? When would they reach that accursed valley?


Gandalf is more concerned with the timing of events, linked with their passing, than with that path, taken in and of itself.


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## Alcuin (Oct 4, 2006)

Thorondor_ said:


> Gandalf is more concerned with the timing of events, linked with their passing, than with that path, taken in and of itself.


Ah! to determine if Sauron had captured the Ring? But surely the way was "accursed," and he was fearful on behalf of Frodo? Yet the Burden must come before the Bearer: the Mission before the Agent.


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