# If Fingolfin was the best swordsman in middle-earth history, why could he not defeat the morgoth?



## Aragorn II Elessar (May 23, 2021)

Except for eönwe, fingolfin is shown as the best swordsman on all sites on the internet. So if he is so talented, why couldn't he defeat the morgoth in a one-on-one sword fight?


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## ulfang (May 24, 2021)

likely because a mixture of plot and also that morgoth was litterally satan and thus could not be defeated by any elf even the greatest of them like fingolfing and also fingolfing was held by the doo iof mandos which did in a way say that they would fail albiet indirectly

p.s i cant spell whn im typing


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## Miguel (May 24, 2021)

I strongly believe Fëanor had it worse than Ñolofinwë since Morgoth was very far from his prime at that time and one single Balrog must have been more effective than him in a fight. If you remove Morgoth from the arena and put Gothmog or any of the other Balrogs i honestly don't see any of the seven stabs happening.


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## Olorgando (May 24, 2021)

Miguel said:


> If you remove Morgoth from the arena and put Gothmog or any of the other Balrogs i honestly don't see any of the seven stabs happening.


I disagree. Gandalf, with Turgon's sword Glamdring, shattered the Moria Balrog's sword, and would most likely have sliced the whip easily, too.
Then Ecthelion of the Fountain took down Gothmog, if with the help of water (being Ulmo's domain, it's not surprising that Morgoth's minions were averse to it).
So I think Fingolfin would have dispatched any Balrong's weapons quite swiftly. And I'd guess that Fingolfin's sword Ringil was at least a notch above Glamdring, possibly having been forged in Valinor itself. I think Fingolfin, especially in his fell mood at that duel, would have been the one Elven warrior who could have bodily destroyed any Balrog "simply" by direct use of weapons (the Balrog would then become a disembodied Maia, but that's another matter).


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## Miguel (May 24, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> he have doneI disagree. Gandalf, with Turgon's sword Glamdring, shattered the Moria Balrog's sword, and would most likely have sliced the whip easily, too.
> Then Ecthelion of the Fountain took down Gothmog, if with the help of water (being Ulmo's domain, it's not surprising that Morgoth's minions were averse to it).
> So I think Fingolfin would have dispatched any Balrong's weapons quite swiftly. And I'd guess that Fingolfin's sword Ringil was at least a notch above Glamdring, possibly having been forged in Valinor itself. I think Fingolfin, especially in his fell mood at that duel, would have been the one Elven warrior who could have bodily destroyed any Balrog "simply" by direct use of weapons (the Balrog would then become a disembodied Maia, but that's another matter).



Gandalf was a Maia, in a old man's suit but still a Maia and he also had Narya. As much as i love Ecthelion, i don't know what would he have done if that fountain wasn't there. Ñolofinwë was the most powerful Elf warrior no question, but i think he was very far from Eönwë's league.


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## Olorgando (May 24, 2021)

*Nobody* was in Eonwë's league, including all Maiar, very definitely including Sauron at all times.
But no Balrog was anywhere in Sauron's league either, at any time. And Sauron was incapacitated by the combined efforts of Gil-galad and Elendil to a degree that Isildur was able to cut the One Ring from his finger.
While Morgoth, through the nihilistic dissipation of his power through all of Arda, may have lessened himself to below Sauron's stature by the end of the First Age, I'd still rate him far above any Balrog. That scene with Ungoliant, where Morgoth needed the help of his Balrogs (at this stage of writing still probably envisioned to be far more than 7) remains for me some of JRRT's worst First Age writing from an early phase to survive into the published Silmarillion (most likely because he never got around to revising in thoroughly).
So while he dealt Morgoth a wound with each blow of Ringil, those blows could have probably have led to any Balrog losing some of its extremities.

Perhaps not quite as drastically as in this MP "Holy Grail" scene, but in that direction:


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## Elthir (May 24, 2021)

Where does Tolkien describe Fingolfin as the best swordsman in Middle-earth history?

In the books Fingolfin is described as the "*strongest*, most steadfast, and most *valiant* *of the sons of Finwe." *And Finwe had three sons, one of whom is described . . .

"For Feanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind: in *valour*, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in *strength* and subtlety alike: *of all the Children of Ilúvatar*, and a bright flame was in him."

So for now (unless I've forgotten the quote the internets are using) maybe it's safer to say that Fingolfin was stronger than Finarfin.



Best swordsman is a bit different in any case. I'll take *Arya Stark* over *Gendry*. And *Pippin "Trollsbane"* (as no one calls him) was likely not as strong as the troll he killed, nor as accomplished a swordsman . . .

. . . as the great Fingolfin!

[snicker]

🐾


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## 1stvermont (May 24, 2021)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> Except for eönwe, fingolfin is shown as the best swordsman on all sites on the internet. So if he is so talented, why couldn't he defeat the morgoth in a one-on-one sword fight?



I believe Fenor and Galadriel were described as the most powerful elves, not fingolfin. Morgoth was at creation the most powerful being created and gave eru [God] a go in a musical battle of sorts. I am a bit surprised a fatigued elf lord did so well 1v1 aginst a valar like Morgoth.


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## Alcuin (May 24, 2021)

Elthir said:


> Where does Tolkien describe Fingolfin as the best swordsman in Middle-earth history?


I concur. I don’t think I’d want to rate Tolkien’s Elves by how “all sites on the internet” opine. I think it much better to turn to Tolkien’s own writing and opinions. 



Elthir said:


> In the books Fingolfin is described as the "*strongest*, most steadfast, and most *valiant* *of the sons of Finwe." *And Finwe had three sons, one of whom is described . . .
> 
> "For Feanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind: in *valour*, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in *strength* and subtlety alike: *of all the Children of Ilúvatar*, and a bright flame was in him."


Elthir has helpfully demonstrated the caution with which we must approach Tolkien’s use of hyperbole. I believe that at some point, Christopher Tolkien remarked on his father’s use of dramatic hyperbole: Tom Bombadil was eldest, but Treebeard was also oldest. Elthir has given us an example of Fingolfin as strongest, but also Fëanor as strongest. 

In any event, Fingolfin was a superb swordsman, agile, strong, and cunning. That he was able even to _wound_ a Vala, however weakened, should be regarded as an incredible feat, and that he left Morgoth ever after halt (lame) with his dying blow is amazing. The Valar are “gods” (with a little “g”), _demiurges_, who shaped and fashioned the world: Melkor Morgoth was one of these, coëval with Manwë Súlimo.


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## Miguel (May 24, 2021)

It's obviously the achievement that resonates more, as it should. It's also scarier to be before Belegûr with no one to help you and all of Angband looking and chanting dark songs. Fëanor, while not reaching his goal, fought the elite force (in a way more problematic imo) and didn't die like Ñolofinwë because his sons pulled him out, otherwise:


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## Hisoka Morrow (May 25, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> ...Then Ecthelion of the Fountain took down Gothmog, if with the help of water (being Ulmo's domain, it's not surprising that Morgoth's minions were averse to it)....



What if we take the tactical disadvantage of Gothmog being unfamiliar with the environment? Of course it's another matter that if Maegalin had exposed too many geographical details, making Ecthelion get the tactical lower hands instead. It must have been a super smash over there.



Alcuin said:


> Elthir has helpfully demonstrated the caution with which we must approach Tolkien’s use of hyperbole. I believe that at some point, Christopher Tolkien remarked on his father’s use of dramatic hyperbole: Tom Bombadil was eldest, but Treebeard was also oldest. Elthir has given us an example of Fingolfin as strongest, but also Fëanor as strongest.
> 
> In any event, Fingolfin was a superb swordsman, agile, strong, and cunning. That he was able even to _wound_ a Vala, however weakened, should be regarded as an incredible feat, and that he left Morgoth ever after halt (lame) with his dying blow is amazing. The Valar are “gods” (with a little “g”), _demiurges_, who shaped and fashioned the world: Melkor Morgoth was one of these, coëval with Manwë Súlimo.





OK, let's get these seriously. JRRT didn't mention that Feanor and his brothers superior aspects, compared between them in details. According to the logical set provided by JRRT already, if we take all these 3 brothers total aspects as the strongest among the whole Free People, then we can conclude that they're equally strong, apart from comparing their advantage and disadvantage in details. Yet, swordsmanship, as the topic host mentioned, up to both physical strength, emotional quality, intelligence, and so forth, if anyone here has even a bit involve in martial arts or combat(including slashing with gangsters, seriously), can figure out what I'm saying.


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## Elthir (May 25, 2021)

*If if if *Tolkien was going to keep Ecthelion's battle with Gothmog somewhat like it was *way way way* back in _The Book of Lost Tales_, if I recall correctly he (Ecthelion) was hardly in good condition before the famous fight . . . after valiant combat, Ecthelion was lugged about by Tuor, and awakening from a swoon (by the fountain), he recovered there a bit while others battled . . .

. . . and when he got up his face was grey as steel, his shield arm was limp . . . and when he went after Mothgog he got wounded for his effort, making him drop his sword. So in brave desperation he nails Gog (short for Mothgog, which is a mistake for Gothmog) with the spike of his helm, and the two entwined end up in a fountain.

Ecthelion's name used to actually contain the word fountain (*ecthel*), but Tolkien revised the meaning of the name -- yet in the updated Fall of Gondolin (early 1950s) he is still called the Lord of the Fountains, and described (at a gate in Gondolin), as having a spike on his helmet . . .

. . . *problem* is, since Tolkien gave Balrogs wings in _The Lord of the Rings,_ I'm guessing Gothmog *never never never* met Ecthelion but flew to Turgon's tower the moment the battle began.

Just a guess


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## Olorgando (May 25, 2021)

Elthir said:


> . . . *problem* is, since Tolkien gave Balrogs wings in _The Lord of the Rings,_ I'm guessing Gothmog *never never never* met Ecthelion but simply flew to Turgon's tower the moment the battle began.
> 
> Just a guess


Maybe we have all been overlooking one thing that might give us a pointer as to the wings or no discussion:

Glaurung definitely did not have wings. Ancalagon (and other dragons) must therefore have been a later development.
Sooooo ...
the Balrogs that populate (most of) the first Age could have been wingless, while the later ones (like the one that ended up in Moria) were "upgrades" like Ancalagon was of Glaurung ...


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## Elthir (May 25, 2021)

Elthir said:


> . . . *problem* is, since Tolkien gave Balrogs wings in _The Lord of the Rings,_ I'm guessing Gothmog *never never never* met Ecthelion but flew to Turgon's tower the moment the battle began.
> 
> Just a guess




Tolkien gave the Balrogs *shadows* rather. We've been through this *over* and *over* and *over*.

*Ando*


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## Celegorm son of Fëanor (Jun 5, 2021)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> Except for eönwe, fingolfin is shown as the best swordsman on all sites on the internet. So if he is so talented, why couldn't he defeat the morgoth in a one-on-one sword fight?


moroth was literally a god.


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