# How do rings functionally work?



## pgt (Dec 31, 2001)

The recent Nazgul thread got me thinking...

I always presumed one of the basic tenents of the rings of power was that they caused the wearer to be invisible. This is probably largely based on Hobbit and I know and agree that presumptions from the Hobbit are dangerous because that book was written in a different voice and such compared to LOTR.

Be that as it may, when the one is found and it's only known power is the ability to render the wearer invisible, we understand that such rings though rare, do exist. At the beginning of FOTR we still only know that it renders the wearer invisible. 

Now the 3 Elven rings do not turn either Elves or Istari invisible.

The nine Nazgul are certainly not invisible or at least their attire and equipment is not invisible. There is a legitimate debate as to whether or not they wear their rings in another thread.

Do the 7 Dwarf rings turn wearers insivible? - I'm not sure that is known conclusively but don't recall references to it at all. In fact the reference to their power is the ability to find gold or something making their insivible powers NOTABLY ABSENT in that description. Very suspicious.

Soooo.....

Is invisibility unique to the one ring?


----------



## Beorn (Dec 31, 2001)

I would think it is unique because of the nature of it: The ring doesn't make you invisible, it takes you to the world of...I guess what would best be called....undead*. Sauron might have put this power into the One Ring so that he could see & (I would assume) communicate with the Nine Riders easily. Often, they would sniff, because they couldn't see in the living world, so maybe it was easier if they saw Sauron in the undead world

*What would happen if Frodo took the Paths of the Dead and put on the ring? Would he see all the dead as living because they are really undead?


----------



## LadyEowyn (Dec 31, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Mike B _
> *I would think it is unique because of the nature of it: The ring doesn't make you invisible, it takes you to the world of...I guess what would best be called....undead*. Sauron might have put this power into the One Ring so that he could see & (I would assume) communicate with the Nine Riders easily. Often, they would sniff, because they couldn't see in the living world, so maybe it was easier if they saw Sauron in the undead world
> 
> *What would happen if Frodo took the Paths of the Dead and put on the ring? Would he see all the dead as living because they are really undead? *[/QUOTE
> ...


----------



## Moonbeams (Dec 31, 2001)

I somehow always assumed that any ring of power would make those of less power, those unable to fully control it, invisible... but now that this question has been asked, I'm not so sure. 
But it couldn't be that the ring takes you only to the world of the undead, because if you remember, Frodo saw Glorfindel in his full might as a prince of elves when he put the ring on. It makes "dim" things more visible, but I wouldn't say only dead things.


----------



## Beorn (Dec 31, 2001)

> _Originally posted by LadyEowyn _
> *Where do you get your information? *



Lord of the Rings, of course...hehe 



> 'Yes, fortune or fate have helped you,' said Gandalf, `not to mention courage. For your heart was not touched, and only your shoulder was pierced; and that was because you resisted to the last. But it was a terribly narrow shave, so to speak. You were in gravest peril while you wore the Ring, *for then you were half in the wraith-world yourself*, and they might have seized you. You could see them, and they could see you.





> Yes, at present, until all else is conquered. The Elves may fear the Dark Lord, and they may fly before him, but never again will they listen to him or serve him. And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. *They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power*





> They did not need the guidance of their horses any longer: you had become visible to them, being already on the threshold of their world.





> At first he could see little. He seemed to be in a world of mist in which there were only shadows: the Ring was upon him. Then here and there the mist gave way and he saw many visions: small and clear as if they were under his eyes upon a table, and yet remote. There was no sound, only bright living images.



All of these describe another world when Frodo put the ring on. I termed it undead, because that is what the Nine are, undead. They are just very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very old.


----------



## Rosie Cotton (Dec 31, 2001)

If the one ring were the only ring to grant invisibility, wouldn't Gandalf have known it for what it was immediately? If invisibility only came with the one ring, Gandalf would have been able to save himself (and everyone else) an awful lot of time and effort. Maybe it works like Moonbeams suggested, making only those who can't fully control it invisible. 

As for the whole wraith-world sub-topic, Mike beat me to it, and he has book quotes, so I don't think I can add anything there....


----------



## Beorn (Dec 31, 2001)

Actually, I've got computer quotes...just searched for 'world' in FotR...found 'em all in about 5 minutes...

We should compile a huge list of Tolkien questions...That'd be cool...and interesting


----------



## Snaga (Dec 31, 2001)

> All of these describe another world when Frodo put the ring on. I termed it undead, because that is what the Nine are, undead. They are just very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very old.



I don't think this is right because Gollum was also very old but didn't 'fade'. It is more than aging that goes on with possession of the rings it is also submission of the bearers will.

I don't think the dwarves were rendered invisible by their rings - no suggestion of that from the accounts of Thror and Thrain. I suspect that the rings had various differing powers, but I am not sure that invisibility was unique to the one ring, or Gandalf would not have spent 60 years unsure of what ring Bilbo had. There were many lesser rings "mere essays" in the craft forged in Eregion by Celebrimbor - maybe some of these also conveyed invisibility.


----------



## pgt (Dec 31, 2001)

Yes, exactly I was under the impression there were rings (plural) that Gandalf was aware of that turned the wearer invisible at the time of Bilbo's adventure. Gandalf didn't know that much about the rings back then but if he knew that much this suggests that it was common knowledge at least among the wise that rings (plural) could make you invisible.

Yes, I think the lack of mention of Dwarf rings turning the wearer invisible is supiciously absent.

Hmmm....


----------



## Greymantle (Dec 31, 2001)

Supposedly the Great Rings are all supposed to confer invisibility to mortals. This is why the hobbits are made invisible, but the Elves and Gandalf are not.
The Dwarves are puzzling, though... certainly not immortal, but as you say there is really no indication of the Rings conferring invisibility. In the first drafts of LotR, the original rings (very different from those in the final version) conferred invisibility to all creatures who wore them but the Dwarves.
Perhaps it is assumed that the reader will know that the Great Rings confer invisibility to mortals, or perhaps it's an exeption. Who knows!


----------



## Aerin (Dec 31, 2001)

*But....*

What if the One Ring had unique powers from the other Rings?
When Gandalf told Frodo that he was halfway in the wraith world, that makes me wonder. Is the Ring a gateway for mortals into the wraith world? Or does it merely suggest to weaker minds invisibility? 
To determine the true effect of the One Ring, it would have to be worn by at least two Hobbits, two Dwarves, two Elves, two Istari, and two Men. Then, one could compare the effect of the Ring on all of those forementioned, and come to something resembling a conclusion. 
Also, there are many factors. 
Would the Ring corrupt Boromir or Faramir more quickly? What if Aragorn wore it? What if a simple farmer wore it? Would the effect of the Ring depend on the desires of the wearer?

There are so many questions about the Ring, that discussing its true nature and or powers is quite difficult.
The other Rings are a different matter... or are they?


----------



## pgt (Dec 31, 2001)

Excellent point Greymantle. Yes the immortals being immune to invisibility certainly fits. Thanks! Personally I'm going to chalk the Dwarf ring powers of invisibiliyt or not up to an unknown curiosity. Is it safe to presume the nine rings, when originally given, conferred invisibility? Just a thought.

Again, thanks.


----------



## theGrenadier (Jan 1, 2002)

I had the impression that the ring didn't necessarily make one invisible, but rather 'moved' the wearer into the realm of darkness, so to speak. Like when Frodo put on the Ring, and then saw the Nazgul as they really are because he was now in their dimension. Invisibility was a sort of default side-effect. The wearer was rendered invisible because he was literally not all there anymore.
Maybe, the immortal beings weren't really immune to invisibilty, but, more like immune to the nature of the Dark Side.


----------



## Grond (Jan 1, 2002)

From TFotR, Chapter _The Shadow of the Past,_ Gandalf states, "A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he _fades_; he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings. Yes, sooner or later---later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purposes will last---sooner or later the dark power will devour him."

The Great Rings include all of the 20 (9+7+3+1). They confer invisibility to all mortals but have not the same effect on the Eldar and Maia, since both of these races already live at once in both realms. Once the metamorphisis of mortals has occurred, it cannot be undone and the Rings are no longer necessary to keep them in the Shadow world. This is why Sauron took the Rings of the Nazgul to keep, so that they would continue to be subservient to him in the event he lost the Ruling Ring (which he did). The Nine Kings were consumed and all entered the shadow world, the dwarves proved of sturdier stock (being a creation of Aule) and Sauron was unable to pervert them...as for the Eldar, there Rings were untouched by Sauron, yes his Ring would still have had dominion over the Three and would have enslaved the holders, so they immediately took them off and hid them when Sauron's betrayal became known. 

As for Gollum, he was inordinately strong willed and had not yet been diminished to the shadow world though the Ring had imparted agelessness on him. He found the Ring in 2463 and was over 556 years of age when he died. 

Bilbo didn't hold the Ring long enough to have any severe lasting effects other than his apparent youth. He still longed for It if It was near but otherwise was able to resume his life without the pervading sense of loss suffered by Smeagol/Gollum. 

Did anybody notice how quickly Bilbo aged in the movie? He gave the Ring to Frodo and within a short period of time appeared to have aged 40 years. That seems totally contrary to what I've just researched and written and is another nitpickingweenie change that I don't think should have been made.

Well, I've gone on long enough and hope I've answered most questions. If not, we'll give it another go.


----------



## Snaga (Jan 1, 2002)

Good post Grond, but I am not sure this says everything.

I thought I would just read a bit of Appendix A and guess what. There's a nice little passage on just the subject of the dwarvish rings:



> The only power over them that the Rings wielded was to inflame their hearts with a greed of gold and precious things, so that if they lacked them all other good things seemed profitless, and they were will with wrath and desire for vengeance on all who deprived them. But they were made from their beginning of a kind to resist most steadfastly any domination. Though they could be slain or broken, they could not be reduced to shadows enslaved to another will; and for the same reason their lives were not affected by any Ring, to live either longer or shorter because of it. All the more did Sauron hate the possessors and desire to dispossess them.



By implication it did not make the dwarves invisible.


----------



## Grond (Jan 1, 2002)

Variag of Khand 

I stand corrected. Your quote definately confirms that the Rings held no substantial power over the dwarves and I was wrong in saying, "...to all mortals...". I should have said, "...all mortals except for the Dwarves...".

Good call Variag and let it not be said that Grond can't gracefully accept correction.


----------



## Wide Boy (Jan 1, 2002)

I like Grond's analysis of the invisibility/fading issue (as amended for dwarves, courtesy of Variag).

Apart from invisibility, aging and the "personality" effects, does anyone recall anything about the rings having any specific powers? Or do they just give power by enhancing their owner's abilities? This would fit with the statements of Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond etc that the Ring is more dangerous to those of greater power (ie if it works by enhancing power, then the more you have to start with, the more you end up with and the worse it is for everyone else when you go bad). If the Ring(s) conferred specific powers then the native power of the owner would matter less. Or do they do both?

I can't recall any mention of specific powers other than those already discussed, but there is lots of stuff hidden in obscure corners in the later Christopher Tolkien releases.


----------



## Snaga (Jan 2, 2002)

Hmm... I don't have a damn fine quote up sleeve this time, but I'll try some informed guessing.

THe passage on the dwarves' rings suggests that the ring given to the house of Durin was less sullied by Sauron. The dwarves held that it was made by the elves and not by Sauron, although he did help in its making, and that its powers for evil were diminished. Suggesting that not all rings are the same.

The 3 elven rings all had jewels encrusted in them, of different hues. Gandalf in FotR describes the 3 elven rings as being made for 'healing, understanding and building'. You could hazard a guess that this might mean that Elrond's was for healing, Galadriel's for understanding, and Cirdan's for building (primarily) - but a Tolkien passage backing that up would help. I'll see what I can find!

Grond, I didn't catch it first time but you said:



> Did anybody notice how quickly Bilbo aged in the movie? He gave the Ring to Frodo and within a short period of time appeared to have aged 40 years. That seems totally contrary to what I've just researched and written and is another nitpickingweenie change that I don't think should have been made.


 .

In the book Bilbo looks 50 when he leaves the Shire. Frodo meets him in Rivendell 17 years later, and he is described as definitely elderly in appearance - i.e. not 67 years old. Sorry to nitpick at your nitpicking, but I think PJ got this one right. If I had a criticism it is that there is no suggestion that Frodo is master of Bag End for 17 years. In the film it appears that he stays there no longer than it takes Gandalf to make a round trip to Minas Tirith!


----------



## Tar-Steve (Jan 2, 2002)

I kind of like how the "invisibility vs. the dwarves" thing was worked out.

Movin on ...

Since this seems to be the most comprehensive thread about the rings themselves I'll re-raise a "question" I'm struggling with about the nine and the wraiths:

I had always thought that the wraiths wore their rings. However, in Unfinished Tales in the section entitled "The Hunt for the Ring", the third paragraph clearly states that the wraiths were enslaved to their rings, which Sauron held.

The question: Why don't the nine die? They are men and noone can take their mortality away from them, certainly not Sauron. They've been without their rings for the entire Third Age. Bilbo didn't age while he possessed the One but began to age as soon as he gave it up. How come the nine aren't dead?

Other ??'s: Are the nine just taking a long time to die because they held their rings for a long time? (Anybody know how long offhand?). How long will Gollum last compared to the nine and to Bilbo (seeing how Gollum probably possessed his ring less time than the wraiths but longer than Bilbo)? Should these comparison even be made since the one and the nine may be quite different? 

Is this nitpicking? Can the fact that the wraiths go on and on be attributed to Sauron holding their rings and exercising some power over their souls, simply delaying their deaths? Unless some of my respected "walking libraries" (aka fellow members) can bring forth some excerpts, there's a lot of room to speculate here.


----------



## Gothmog (Jan 2, 2002)

Interesting point that I have been concidering since Grond proved me wrong in my assumption that the wraiths kept their Rings. Now Bilbo held the one ring for a few years and started aging after he gave it to Frodo. Gollum held the ring for many years and did not seem to age in the same way. In fact judging by the way he travlled he did not age physicaly at all. The Nazgul held their rings probably a great many years before Sauron took them back and they probably did not do so willingly.

So looking at this it may be that the longer someone holds a great Ring the longer it takes for the effect to wear off. Another possibility is that Bilbo gave the Ring to Frodo more or less willingly. It was not taken from him but given by him. In the cases of the Nazgul and gollum the rings were not given willingly and this may have the effect of increasing the hold of the ring as the person wants it back.

So I feel that it is the desire to regain the rings that they once held that keeps the Nazgul and Gollum from ageing quickly once the Rings are taken from them.


----------



## Wide Boy (Jan 2, 2002)

Tar-Steve

The Nine don't die because they are "undead". They have already faded into wraiths. In fact, this is why they are called Ringwraiths. Sauron took their rings from them because as far as he was concerned, he would rather they didn't have power independently and possibly it allowed him to control them better.

However, this does raise an issue. Presumably they became wraiths sometime during the Second Age. Sauron gets done away with and Isilidur gets the One Ring. If Sauron had collected the Nine rings and some of the Seven, where were they? Did they just disappear into the ether with Sauron?

Alternatively, did the Nine have their rings at the time and hence were able to reform by themselves (if indeed they ever disappeared) and then Sauron took the Nine back sometime after reforming during the Third Age (perhaps in his guise as the Necromancer)?

Same problem for the Seven. The dwarves didn't turn into wraiths. At least one ring remained in their possession until Thrain had it taken from him. Some had been consumed by dragons. However, Sauron did have at least a couple of the Seven. What happened to them? When did he get them back. During the Second Age or the Third?

Any clues anyone?


----------



## Wide Boy (Jan 2, 2002)

Further note to my last post.

Gollum is a different case. He is not yet a wraith so he can't be lumped in with the Nazgul. Gandalf made the observation that hobbits resist the power of the ring far more than he expected and more so than most Men. Remember that the Nazgul were Men originally. As Gollum and Bilbo were both of hobbit stock, they shared the ability to resist fading, perhaps in a manner akin to the dwarves.

Bilbo ageing quickly after losing the Ring (getting slightly confused with the movie threads now) isn't so much of a problem. Although Gollum is 500+ years old, this does not mean that his longer possession of the Ring has made him more immune to ageing than Bilbo. Remember that Bilbo was right into middle age when he first came into possession of the Ring, whereas Gollum was just a young sprout.

If you look at the relative lengths of time that each lived after they lost possession of the Ring, by the time of the War of the Ring they would both have been quite old. Bilbo was 130 but really only about 80 once you take out the time that he owned the ring. He would have been a bit soft and portly having had only one real adventure and having spent the last 20 years slothing around at Rivendell, writing poetry and smoking. Gollum would have been roughly 80 in equivalent years, but a little more vigorous having lived a fairly hard outdoor existence. Both of these fit with how Tolkien described them.


----------



## BreadOrc (Jan 2, 2002)

*Brief yet meaningless*



> *
> Only the ring Sauron forged makes the wearer invisible, the rest just fulfills other contempts, like gold and all...Period. *


----------



## Grond (Jan 2, 2002)

Variag, my point exactly.... not that it didn't appear that way in the book. The book lead me to believe that Bilbo's age gradually caught up with him over the 17 years. It didn't come on him all of the sudden, else how did he have the vigor for his further adventures that he hints at in the book. Remember, he went back to Erebor and Dale. In the movie, we're lead to believe that there has only been the space of a few months and suddenly, Old Bilbo appears. Not necessarily wrong, just different than I envisioned it.

Tar-Steve. As far as why the nine don't die, I agree with Wide Boy. They are wraiths and they're souls which should have been released to Mandos, have been enslaved to Sauron and his power in the Ring. They cannot be released unless slain (ie Eowyn and Merry) or the Ruling Ring is destroyed. So, in effect, Sauron hasn't taken their mortality from them, he has just frozen it for his use until either he reigns supreme or the One Ring is destroyed.

Also, the Wraiths would most certainly have had their Rings taken before Sauron's defeat by Elendil and Gil-galad. If not, he would have had no power over them. Indeed, they may have been as strong or stronger than him. Only by being tied to his will, did they help him regain his strength. It was the Ringwraiths who first occupied Dol Goldur and made it ready for Sauron in his Necromancer guise.

As for the three having jewels, all of the Great Rings other than the one were adorned with their own specific jewel. Gandalf said so somewhere in tFotR. I'll look up the quotes for all these examples later tonight. Gotta go now but will get back.


----------



## Wide Boy (Jan 2, 2002)

Grond,

Correct about the jewels. I think Gandalf first mentions it as early as the Shadow of the Past. If not there, then the Council of Elrond.

The One Ring was the only one of the Great Rings that did not have a jewel. This, together with its power to confer great age which confirmed it was a Great Ring, was why Gandalf strongly suspected that it was the One Ring and not just some lesser ring. The test in the fire was just confirmation.


----------



## Hawkblaze (Jan 2, 2002)

Ok, besides the whole invisibility thingymabob, weren't the rings of power created to allow the bearers control over their race? I think Sauron created the one ring to rule the others (to control them, like he does the ringwraiths). The nine were once men but were so corrupted by their rings that they fell under the control of Sauron.


----------



## sigo94 (Jan 2, 2002)

I would say that only looking at the capabilities of the 21 (9+7+3+1) Great Rings would be a mistake. In FotR (The Shadow of the Past), Gandalf states:


> In Eregion long ago, many Elven-rings were made, magic rings as you call them, and they were, of course, of various kinds; some more potent and some less. The lesser rings were only essays in the craft before it was full-grown, and to the Elven-smiths they were but trifles--yet still to my mind dangerous for mortals. But the Great Rings, the Rings of Power, they were perilous.


The only way he could be sure which ring Bilbo and Frodo possessed was the test of fire. 
Granted, he was pretty sure that it was a Ring of Power, and more specifically, the One Ring, but we don't know of the capabilities of the lesser Rings.

Maybe out in left field or even OT, but it also says in the Silmarillion (Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age)


> In those days the smiths of Ost-in-Edhil surpassed all that they had conrtived before; and they took thought, and they made Rings of Power. But Sauron guided their labours, and he was aware of all that they did


and later on the same page


> Therefore the Three remained unsullied, for they were forged by Celebrimbor alone, and the hand of Sauron had never touched them; yet they also were subject to the One.


 My thought is that Sauron had a hand in the making of *ALL* of the Rings of Power, even the Lesser Rings -- and so, they would all be dangerous to mortals -- presumably in the same fashion as the One Ring, albeit some more dangerous than others.

One should be reminded that this is only my opinion.. and not to be mistaken for Tolkien Cannon....

edit -- My original intent in looking in Silmarillion (I got sidetracked!) was this: _"But Sauron gathered into his hands all the remaining Rings of Power; and he dealt them out to the other peoples of Middle-earth, hoping thus to bring under his sway all those that desired secret power beyond the measure of their kind. Seven rings he gave to the Dwarves; but to Men he gave nine, for Men proved in this matter as in others the readiest to his will. And all those rings that he governed, he perverted, the more easily since he had a part in their making, and they were accursed, and they betrayed in the end all those that used them. The Dwarves indeed proved tough and hard to tame; they ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom, nor can they be turned to shadows. They used their rings only for the getting of wealth; but wrath and an over-mastering greed of ogld were kindled in their hearts, of which evil enough after came to the profit of Sauron.
Men proved easier to ensnare. Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in thier day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old. They obained glory and great wealth, yet it turned to their undoing. They had, as it seemed, unending life, yet life becoming unendurable to them. They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men; but too oftne they beheld only the phantoms and delusions of Sauron. And one by one, sooner or later, according to their native strength and to the ood or evil of their wills in the beginning, they fell under the thrraldom of hte ring that htey bore and under the dominiation of the One, which was sAuron's. And they became forever invisible save to him that wore the Ruling Ring, and they entered into the realm of shadows. The Nazgul were they, the Ringwraiths, the Enemy's most terrible servants; darkness went with them, and they cried with the voices of death."_
The 20 Great Rings were all created equally, but affected their wearers differently -- Dwarves were made greedy for Gold; Men were made "Mighty" and had invisibility (or near enough to it). Hobbits being more Manlike than Elven or Dwarven would most likely see the same benefits/failing as the Nazgul, of which the most obvious would be invisibility. *whew* long post


----------



## pgt (Jan 2, 2002)

Getting back to the sway of the ring and Gollumn, Bilbo and Frodo I've always surmised, though I can't verify in the text, that to some degree the ring may have exerted more or less power based on a couple of external factors:

- Current 'power' of Sauron
- Proximity of ring to Mordor or Sauron (and at what times - see 1)

Gollumn resisted the ring long and though in many way he was corrupted, he hadn't physically 'faded'.
Bilbo gave up the ring 'relatively' easily.
Frodo refrained from using the ring somewhat in those last year(s) and yet at the end it swayed him to not voluntarily throw it in the the pit. Remember Bilbo used the ring more liberally and had it for a fair bit longer yet he ultimately surrendered it to Frodo.

Purely speculation. Any opinions on this?


----------



## Grond (Jan 2, 2002)

pgt..... I agree


----------



## LadyEowyn (Jan 3, 2002)

No, invisibility is not unique to just The One ring. 

Actually, The Ringwraiths were invisible: It was either Gandalf, or Strider (I use the name "Strider", because that's what they called him when he was telling them this) that said: They wear black cloaks and armor, so they have a shape, because underneath they have no shape.

I'm not sure about the Dwarf Rings, you'll have to wait for Ancalagon, Grond, or some other genius.


----------



## proudfoot (Jan 3, 2002)

The three elven rings must have had considerable power, since the arrival of the fellowship was seen by Galadriel as the footstep of doom to the elves of Lorien.



> *"Do you not see now wherefore your coming is to us as the footstep of Doom? For if you fail, then we are laid bare to the Enemy. Yet if you succeed then our power is diminished, and Lothlorien will fade, and the tides of Time will sweep it away. We will depart into the west, or dwindle to a rustic folk of dell and cave, slowly to forget, or to be forgotten."*




It seems to be implied that the destruction of the One Ring will break the power of the three elven rings, so that Lorien and Rivendell will in some way no longer be sustainable. This indeed happens at the dawn of the fourth age, when both are abandoned.


----------



## Evenstar (Jan 3, 2002)

Lady Eowyn-

The Men Rings did not make the wearer invisible because the Wraiths were not wearing them. As it was said before Sauron held the rings. The corruption of the rings caused to them made them fade, but the rings diidn't hold the power of invisibility.

Also. Proudfoot, yes the elven rings were powerful just not ass powerful as Sauron's.


----------



## Grond (Jan 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Evenstar _
> *Lady Eowyn-
> 
> The Men Rings did not make the wearer invisible because the Wraiths were not wearing them. As it was said before Sauron held the rings. The corruption of the rings caused to them made them fade, but the rings diidn't hold the power of invisibility.
> ...


Alas Arwen, the Nine did indeed convey invisibility as is explained by Gandalf while talking to Frodo in his study and in the Silmarillion, _Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age_, it states, 

_"...Men proved easier to ensnare. Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old. They obtained glory and great wealth, yet it turned to their undoing. They had, as it seemed, unending life, yet life became unendurable to them. They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men; but too often they beheld only the phantoms and delusions of Sauron. And one by one, sooner or later, according to their native strength and to the good or evil of their wills in the beginning, they fell under the thraldom of the One, which was Sauron's. And they became forever invisible save to him that wore the Ruling Ring, and they entered into the realm of shadows. The Nazgul were they, the Ringwraiths, the Enemy's most terrible servants; darkness went with them, and they cried with the voices of death."_

Once they faded, they were gone and the fact that they no longer held their Rings was not relevant. They were already wraiths.


----------



## LadyEowyn (Jan 4, 2002)

Evenstar-

Actually, I read it over in the book, and it doesn't say exactly what I said, but it said something very similar. 

Grond-

Thanks for backing me up. 

I couldn't remember the exact words (Obviously) But, I knew something of what I said was true. LOL.


----------



## Telchar (Jan 4, 2002)

Don't remember much about the Dwarven rings, except that they didn't turn their bearer into wraiths.. Maybe bacause the Rings were not powerfull enough.. But anyway, the Rings given to the Dwarves made the bearers lust for gold, gems and other items of wealth..


----------



## ReadWryt (Jan 4, 2002)

> This is why Sauron took the Rings of the Nazgul to keep, so that they would continue to be subservient to him in the event he lost the Ruling Ring (which he did).



So if that was his intent in taking the 9 rings of Mortal Man, what did he want with the 3 Rings? I think that the only reason he got the 9 rings was that Men were easily duped, but the Elves were the ones who took off their rings and told Sauron to "Shove it" when he demanded that they reliquish them to him. I mean, what controll did he really have over the Nazgul anyways? That allways kind of puzzled me...without the One Ring, why should the Nazgul not go do whatever they pleased and tell Sauron to go to Hades, or wherever is the nearest dimention of damnation to Middle-earth? I probably have missed or forgotten something, and am being a "Bone Head" right now...but I'm at a loss..


----------



## Grond (Jan 4, 2002)

1) Telchar - I disagree with your assertion that the Dwarf Rings weren't really powerful nor conferred invisibility. The Dwarf Rings as the others, were each set with their own stone and had their own special "power". JRRT never fully elaborated what those powers were and I guess we'll never know. I feel a Dwarf Ring would have turned any other mortal (excepting Dwarves) invisibe. The Dwarves were less effected due to their very nature (being of the spirit of Aule) and proved less easily perverted to the power of the Ring. All it did to dwarves was increase their lust for gold and wealth. This is not speculation but based upon Gandalf's conversation with Frodo in the Shire when explaining The One Ring to him and its relationship with the others. But, I suppose I could find other references when I look.

2) ReadWryt, I think it's made clear in works, that absent the One Ring, the Ringwraiths were slaves only to their own Rings. That would mean having them in your possession would be of great importance. Thus, Sauron would have control over the them through their Rings. As for him wanting the three. If he were to get them, he knew the Eldar would have no more desire to stay on Middle-earth and would return to Aman by the drove (as occurred when the power of the Three ended at the end of the Third Age). That would remove them from the mix and leave Middle-earth to Man, who Sauron had always had an easier time in dealing with (aka Ar-Pharazon). 

But that's just MHO.


----------



## Walter (Jan 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ReadWryt _
> *... but the Elves were the ones who took off their rings and told Sauron to "Shove it" when he demanded that they reliquish them to him...*



Now could You find me THAT quote please...


----------



## Grond (Jan 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ReadWryt _
> *...but the Elves were the ones who took off their rings and told Sauron to "Shove it" when he demanded that they reliquish them to him... *





> _Originally posted by Walter _
> *Now could You find me THAT quote please...  *


It's in director Peter Jackson's book of famous Tolkien quotes.... it can be found directly before the "let's hunt some orc" quote.


----------



## Walter (Jan 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Grond _
> *It's in director Peter Jackson's book of famous Tolkien quotes.... it can be found directly before the "let's hunt some orc" quote. *


Hehehe Grond, You're cheating - quotes from PJ or his oh so reliable sources aren't allowed here 

...come to think of it: maybe PJ has established a "direct wire" to the professor of late, where he got his information first hand...in various seances...


----------



## pgt (Jan 4, 2002)

I'm going to attempt to make a distinction here. I think there is a difference between invisible and fading. Someone puts on some ring and they turn invisible (including their attire). Given enough times, eventually someone 'fades' or becomes permanently invisible as it were, ring or no. Now in this later case the fading condition may or may not include their clothes (perhaps not?). This is purely a theory on my part based on general impressions from the books and this thread as well.

My thought on the Dwarf rings is that they did not subjugate the dwarves which may or may not have included invisibility too. The general consensus seems to be that they did not confer invisibility upon the dwarves at least based upon the suspicious absence of 'invisibility' when they are mentioned in the books. While they had some affect on the hearts of dwarves, it was not what Sauron intended. However I don't think it's clear that it's because of the rings or because of the nature of dwarves themselves. Those same rings may have turned other non-dwarf wearers invisible, or had other more pronounced effects. Was not Sauron's intent for the 7 rings identical to his intent for the 9 rings? My guess is that it was a combination of the two and that the 7 rings could have had who knows what effect upon non-dwarvish wearers including perhaps even invisibility.


----------



## Telchar (Jan 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Grond _
> *1) Telchar - I disagree with your assertion that the Dwarf Rings weren't really powerful nor conferred invisibility. The Dwarf Rings as the others, were each set with their own stone and had their own special "power". JRRT never fully elaborated what those powers were and I guess we'll never know. I feel a Dwarf Ring would have turned any other mortal (excepting Dwarves) invisibe. The Dwarves were less effected due to their very nature (being of the spirit of Aule) and proved less easily perverted to the power of the Ring. All it did to dwarves was increase their lust for gold and wealth. This is not speculation but based upon Gandalf's conversation with Frodo in the Shire when explaining The One Ring to him and its relationship with the others. But, I suppose I could find other references when I look.*



I didn't said that it wouldn't make a Man invisible, I said it didn't turn the bearer invisible. And the Dwarven Rings were only bore by Dwarves.. 

What I meant, sory if I wasn't clear enough, was that the Rings weren't powerfull enough to turn their bearers (Dwarves) into Wraits..


----------



## Grond (Jan 4, 2002)

Four posts up pgt. I agree with you. Gandalf was very specific that all of the Great Rings conveyed invisibility.. I guess on those of weaker blood. 

The Three did not convey invisibility to their Evlf and Maia wearers, yet the Ring itself was not visible on the wearer's hand. The seven did not convey invisibility on the dwarves yet were made with the same intent as the nine. And, the nine we know. They conveyed invisibility on man and eventually caused man to fade into a wraith. Apparently, when they were wraiths, they were no longer wholly human and had to have some special circumstances to die. Aka destruction of the One Ring or a mighty Hobbit warrior and Shield maiden kickin' your butt.

This thread interests me greatly and I will search more in the HoMe and UT tonight to see if any more information can be gleaned from there. Til then.... adieu.


----------



## Lantarion (Jan 4, 2002)

*Yeeees*

I think only Rings corrupted by Sauron's evil, malice-filled will could turn the wielder into a Wraith. I wonder what Sauron was even doing with the few Dwarf- rings he had, when he didn't have anybody to wear them..


----------



## Grond (Jan 4, 2002)

Maybe the same thing he was doing with nine nazgul rings he had with nobody to wear them. Maybe he had all 12 on his fingers and toes. I wonder if Sauron wearing the Great Rings he had, would have made him more powerful????

Geez, has anybody thought about that? Could Sauron have been wearing all the Rings he had in his possession? That might explain how he regained his strength so much quicker after he fled Dol Goldur. Let's see, he would have had 3 Dwarf Rings, 9 Rings for Man and who knows how many of the lesser Rings. Maybe he made a crown and mounted all the Rings on it. Yea.... that's the ticket.

Gosh, PJ ought to use that in his movie.


----------



## Snaga (Jan 4, 2002)

Ah but hadn't you noticed? 9 + 7 + 3 + 1 = 20 rings. Sauron had carefully worked it so he could have one on every finger/toe! 

Although Isildur may have dented the plan by unkindly depriving him of a finger, some of the dwarf rings got consumed by dragons, meaning he wouldn't have to keep one for best.



> what did he want with the 3 Rings?


 asks ReadWryt.

Gandalf tells Frodo:



> The Three are still hidden. But that no longer troubles him. He only needs the one; for he made that ring himself; it is his and he let a great part of his former power pass into it, so he could rule the others. If he recovers it, he will rule all the others even the Three, all that has been wrought with them will be laid bare, and he will be stronger than ever.



So while I don't disagree as such with the other answers, actually by the time of the War of the Ring, Sauron is not interested in the three.

As for the 7, I think Sauron miscalculated. He thought he could dominate the dwarfs but failed. But since the dwarfs could use them to create great hoards of wealth, out of malice, Sauron wanted them back. And if they gave him powers too, all the better.


----------



## ReadWryt (Jan 4, 2002)

My question about the 3 rings was illustrative. It was to point out that the Elves were not as easily tricked, and to bring up the point that Suaron's desire for the One Ring seems to be silly at first blush because he has controll over the Nazgul WITHOUT it, so what is the One Ring really needed for? If he can controll the wearers of rings without the One, then he seemingly should be willing to accept the One Ring being hidden from anyone as a "Next Best".


----------



## Snaga (Jan 4, 2002)

Yes, in the same passage (in Shadow of the Past) Gandalf implies strongly that Sauron had settled for it being lost, until learning the truth.

But for him its not a good 2nd best. Yes he has the Nazgul, but the Three are still there and so the Elves and Gandalf can resist. Once he gets the One they have to stop wielding the three, or he will overpower them. 

What this would do to them I don't know. I'm not sure that a subjugated immortal would become a wraith.


----------



## Grond (Jan 4, 2002)

Ahhhhh but ReadWryt, the One Ring was needed by Sauron most desperately. For if he didn't have it, someone else might. And if someone else had it, they would then be able to control the Ringwraiths and take control of his army. 

It was also the only way that he could be vanquished. If I had been Sauron, I would have wanted it very badly. But of course, I already have an advantage over Sauron, having read the book. hahahaha!


----------



## Evenstar (Jan 4, 2002)

*Oops*

posted by Grond


> And one by one, sooner or later, according to their native strength and to the good or evil of their wills in the beginning, they fell under the thraldom of the One, which was Sauron's. And they became forever invisible save to him that wore the Ruling Ring, and they entered into the realm of shadows.



Oops, sorry LadyEowyn, I missed that. I have only read the Sil once and that was a while ago....

If Frodo had the One Ring then why didn't the Ringwraiths obey him? I guess it could be because he didn't try to use it- but Bilbo used it alot and Gollum too. So why didn't they gain control over the Wratihs?


----------



## Grond (Jan 4, 2002)

*Re: Oops*



> _Originally posted by Evenstar _
> *Oops, sorry LadyEowyn, I missed that. I have only read the Sil once and that was a while ago....
> 
> If Frodo had the One Ring then why didn't the Ringwraiths obey him? I guess it could be because he didn't try to use it- but Bilbo used it alot and Gollum too. So why didn't they gain control over the Wratihs? *


Somewhere in the text, Frodo asks Gandalf that same question (I don't remember where) and Gandalf responds that Frodo hadn't ever really tried to use the real power of the Ring. He had only put it on and made himself invisible. He had never "claimed it" for his own. Nor had Bilbo nor Gollum. I think to exert that kind of control, one would have to know what they had and only Frodo found out. He never tried to *master* the Ring until Mount Doom. It would have been interesting to see what would have happened had Gollum not intervened and gotten rid of the Ring for Frodo; otherwise, the scenario you ask about, would have happened. Frodo would have been challenged by the Wraiths and he would have had to use his will (magnified by the Ring) to master them. 

Gandalf seemed to feel that only a person of Greatness (such as himself, Aragorn, Galadriel, Elrond or even Denethor) would be needed to truly master the Ring. I hope I have answered your question. I haven't looked up the quotes, but they are there and I will if you request it.


----------



## LadyEowyn (Jan 4, 2002)

Evenstar-

That's quite alright. Actually, I haven't read it at all, I found what i told you in "The Fellowship of the Ring", in the beggining where Gandalf is explaining everything to Frodo. I've noticed that many people forget what Gandalf explained to Frodo (Even Frodo himself)Example:

Nine he gave to mortal men, proud and great, and so ensnared them. Long ago they fell under the dominion of the One, and they became Ringwraiths, shadows under his great shadow, his most terrible servants.(Gandalf explaining the Blackriders to Frodo)

Frodo-You mean the Riders? I feared that they were servants of the Enemy. What are the Black riders?

Gildor- 'Has Gandalf told you nothing?'

Frodo-'Nothing about such creatures.'

LOL. Someone wasn't paying attention to Gandalf.=)


----------



## sigo94 (Jan 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by LadyEowyn _
> *LOL. Someone wasn't paying attention to Gandalf.=) *


Gandalf never said anything about the Nazgul being Riders.. Frodo probably hadn't put two and two together to make Nine yet.. I believe at that time, he had only seen one or two Black Riders, and never with the ring on.

It's easy for us to second guess him because, as Grond said earlier, we've read the Book


----------



## 4th Age Scribe (Jan 6, 2002)

*From the 2nd Edition Preface*

(Silmirilian) 2nd edition preface contains a letter from Tolkien to his editor stating this:

QUOTE
"The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay (i.e. 'change' viewed as a regretable thing), the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance--this is more or less an Elvish motive. But also they enhanced the natural powers of a posessor--thus approachin 'magic', a motive easily corruptible into evil, a lust for domination. And finally, they had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron,*such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible."* 
UNQUOTE

So this power, invisibility, was something that came naturally to Sauron, and was imbued into the rings. According to this, it seems all the rings had this characteristic.


----------



## LadyEowyn (Jan 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by sigo94 _
> *Gandalf never said anything about the Nazgul being Riders.. Frodo probably hadn't put two and two together to make Nine yet.. I believe at that time, he had only seen one or two Black Riders, and never with the ring on.
> 
> It's easy for us to second guess him because, as Grond said earlier, we've read the Book  *



Yeah, I suppose your right.


----------



## Grond (Jan 6, 2002)

*Re: From the 2nd Edition Preface*



> _Originally posted by 4th Age Scribe _
> * So this power, invisibility, was something that came naturally to Sauron, and was imbued into the rings. According to this, it seems all the rings had this characteristic. *


I agree and yet disagree. I think everyone is using the term "invisibility" so that it will be easier to understand cause and effect. Put on the ring..... vanish from this plain... but it is clear from the texts... all of them from the LotR, Sil, UT, HoMe that the Ring causes the wearer to enter another plane. The plane that is home to Sauron, his Ringwraiths and actually home to the true spirit of the Elven kind. Remember how bright Glorfindel appeared to Frodo while he was wearing the Ring at the Fords of Bruinen. So, I will agree that the Rings cause invisibility (as it were) to mortals (other than dwarves), but still assert that the texts make it clear that Elves, Dwarves, and Maia are not thusly effected.


----------



## Bill the Pony (Jan 12, 2002)

Just for fun: this article 'explains it all'
http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue243/labnotes.html


----------



## Lantarion (Jan 12, 2002)

*Heehee*

That's a good one, Mike, thanks.  So Sauron was a Maia AND a biochemist! Way to go, Saurie-boy!
But that was both a very amusing article, as well as an explanation to the power of the Ring. But I think it was put in too realistic and "medical" terms; I'm glad the LotR isn't written the same way, or it would seem like a chemist's handbook rather than a beautiful fantasy novel!

Welcome, 4th Age Scribe. That was a pretty insiteful post, well done. (Just on a nit-picking sidenote: it's 
*Silmarillion*, not Silmirilian.


----------



## EverEve (Jan 15, 2002)

if the r makes it's wearer invisible, tehn does it only hold power over those other than its master, sauron? considering all can see sauron even whenhe had his ring on, im thinking that it only made those other than him invisible, becuz the ring reconized people as being one other htan its mster (u get wut im tryingto say?)


----------



## Arya (Jan 17, 2002)

alright, i haven't read all the pages on this matter, but i do have something to say about the elf-lord rings. If anyone wants to look it up, it's in the chapter of The Council of Elrond.

I Quote, "Ah, alas!' cried Gloin. 'When the day come our revenge? But still there are the Three. What of the Three Rings of the Elves? Very mighty Rings, it is said. Do not the Elf-lords keep them? Yet they too were made by the Dark Lord long ago. Are they idle? I see Elf-lords here. Will they not say?'
The elves returned no answer. 'Did you not hear me, Gloin?" said Elrond. ' The Three were not made by Sauron, nor did he ever touch them. Bur of them it is not permitted to speak. So much only in this hour of doubt I may now say. They are not idle. But they were not made as weapons of war or conquest: that is not their power. Those who made them did not desire strength or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all things unstained. These things the Elves of Middle-Earth have in some measured gained, though with sorrow. But all that has been wrought by those who wield the Three will turn to their undoing, and their minds and hearts will become revealed to Sauron, if he regains the One. It would be better if the Three had never been. That is his purpose."

Sorry for the long message, i couldn't figure how to stop it. i m sorry if someone else already posted this huge quote.

Arya


----------



## Grond (Jan 17, 2002)

Dear Arya, hail and well met and welcome to our forum.

It would behoove you to read the entire post before posting. Your effort is worthy and appreciated but has already been discussed at length. The thread is only four pages long and will take you less than five minutes to cruise through.


----------



## Arya (Jan 25, 2002)

Thanks for the welcome, I read about it after i posted my lengthy clip from the fellowship of the rings, i felt sort of, should i say dumb but i return typed that in two minutes, thanks to my typing class it wasn't a waste of time for me. Next time i will read the untire thread before i post.
Hope to chat again!
Arya


----------



## LadyEowyn (Jan 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Arya _
> *Thanks for the welcome, I read about it after i posted my lengthy clip from the fellowship of the rings, i felt sort of, should i say dumb but i return typed that in two minutes, thanks to my typing class it wasn't a waste of time for me. Next time i will read the untire thread before i post.
> Hope to chat again!
> Arya *



Welcome Arya.

I know how you feel. But, you shouldn't feel stupid. It happens to the best of us. (Mostly me.)  Not that I'm saying I'm the best, I'm far from. Dang, maybe I just shouldn't have said anything.


----------

