# Free will?



## Starflower (Oct 7, 2010)

I would like your thoughts on this: 
Is the Elves' apparent lack of free will because they were made that way or a result of their association with the Valar?
Are the Men somehow inherently more rebellious or is this a result of their non-association with the Valar?


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## Uminya (Oct 7, 2010)

I think that the difference is that Elves have a much more defined fate, which is to say that their stories are written before they take place. Men, on the other hand, write their own stories as they happen.

As to why this is...one can only speculate. Perhaps Elves were meant to be a _part_ of the world, while Men were meant to _shape_ it?


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## Confusticated (Oct 7, 2010)

I think its just the fate of Men was hidden from them during the music because of the fact that Melkor had put his mark on Men and they became beings with a will and fate that could be truly independant of Iluvatar. I think that Men are the artificial Intelligence of Eru's design, and that we could only be created after Melkor truly rebelled against the others. 

Elves do have free will I think, its just that their ultimate fate is destined and the rough outline of the means to it were known. 

But this is a good question, and its not a quick and easy answer.

I wouldn't say men were free willed because of their lack on contact with the Valar, but perhaps in part because of their early contact with Melkor. I also believe this may have been Iluvatar's design.

Yes I think Elves were made as they were and Men were made as they were all by design of Iluvatar but in response to the music, and using the valar as a means of achieving this design in some cases. Valar were his tools, and then so were elves, and even men.... it's as though our purpose is to just be this beautiful and tragic drama for Iluvatar's experience. We can create something for him that he couldn't have dreamed up on his own? Or is he in fact running every little thing, like an author... and we only feel like we're the ones in charge. Or are we his means of creating a life or existance for himself to come into and experience? I hope he likes happy endings. That maybe all the sorrows of existance will be made right it the end, and will be appreciated for the rest of eternity?


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## Gothmog (Oct 13, 2010)

Starflower said:


> I would like your thoughts on this:
> Is the Elves' apparent lack of free will because they were made that way or a result of their association with the Valar?
> Are the Men somehow inherently more rebellious or is this a result of their non-association with the Valar?


The answer to this question can be found in the Quenta Sillmarillion. Chapeter 1: of the begining of days:


> For it is said that after the departure of the Valar there was silence, and for an age Ilúvatar sat alone in thought. Then he spoke and said: 'Behold I love the Earth, which shall be a mansion for the Quendi and the Atani! But the Quendi shall be the fairest of all earthly creatures, and they shall have and shall conceive and bring forth more beauty than all my Children; and they shall have the greater bliss in this world. But to the Atani I will give a new gift.' Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest.


Ilúvatar decided that Men would have such free will before any of the Children of Ilúvatar were placed in Middle-earth.

The question that has never been answered to my satisfaction is 'did the Elves have Any free will at all?'


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## Confusticated (Oct 14, 2010)

Gothmog said:


> Ilúvatar decided that Men would have such free will before any of the Children of Ilúvatar were placed in Middle-earth.


 
True, but one could argue that he made the decision based on foreseeing it would become necessary. That Melkor's opposition to him and the Valar would be the means of doing this?

I did give my opnion of elvish free will above, but another point I'd like to make is that if they didn't have free will would they even be people? To me, a lack of free will looks like Aule's Dwarves before Iluvatar gave free will to them.



It may be, if orcs are elvish, that Melkor was able to take it back from some of them.

Pleasantly surprised to see you around Gothmog.:*)


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## Gothmog (Oct 14, 2010)

Nom said:


> True, but one could argue that he made the decision based on foreseeing it would become necessary. That Melkor's opposition to him and the Valar would be the means of doing this?


There is nothing to argue about here. The paragraph following the one I quoted makes it clear that it *is* done due to foreknowledge. 



> I did give my opnion of elvish free will above, but another point I'd like to make is that if they didn't have free will would they even be people? To me, a lack of free will looks like Aule's Dwarves before Iluvatar gave free will to them.


I know you did, And i agree with you. However, with many discussions on the matter there are still some who feel different. 





> Pleasantly surprised to see you around Gothmog.:*)


It is nice to be back here. :*)


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## Elthir (Oct 14, 2010)

I thought this thread was interesting, especially the posts by Elfwine..

http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=127759;guest=#127759

And...

http://newboards.theonering.net/for...78;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;guest=22194124


This format is a bit easier to read in any case :*D


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## r.j.c. (Oct 17, 2010)

The Elves show free will many times through the stories. They show they can be cruel and petty and evil. The Noldor decided freely to chase Melkor and to fight and kill there kin. Cirdan and many other sindar choose to stay in Beleriand for love of Thingol. Feanor and his sons some more then others choose to be atleast somewhat evil. And ther always EOL and Maeglin. Are you saying that all these things were meant to happen or Am i not understanding the quetion properly ?


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## Gothmog (Oct 17, 2010)

If you check the quote I gave above it states that only Men could do things that were outside of the Music of the Ainur. However, elsewhere in the Sil. it is stated that the Ainur did not add anything to the creation of either Elves or Men because they did not understand them in the Music.

So the question of Elvish Free Will turns on the point of 'Just how much are they bounded by the Music'?
Are the bounds like a large valley where there are many paths to choose from or like a narrow hallway where they have little choice?
I, and I believe Nom, think that it is more like the large valley idea where there are both limits and choices.


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## Alcuin (Nov 9, 2010)

Perhaps part of the issue resolves to the fate of Elves in Arda. While Men were doomed to leave after a rather short period, both in their own estimation and in that of the Elves, the Eldar Kindred remained until the end of Arda itself: their fate thereafter was unknown. They believed that Men had a fate beyond the Circles of the World (as did Men: cf. Aragorn’s comfort to grief-stricken Arwen just before he died); but they had little idea about their fate afterwards. (One might imagine the whole race of Elves becoming more and more concerned about this as Arda slowly winds down, like a )

The Elves certainly exercised free will. Fëanor chose to withhold the Silmarils from Yavanna to save the Two Trees, though he struggled mightily with his decision. (Perhaps it might have been different had the Valar not pressed him to concede.) Then he led a fratricidal rebellion, and apparently refused even in Mandos to repent of his deeds. Lúthien chose to become mortal, and Arwen followed her thereafter. 

The Ainur seem to have understood Elves far better than they understood Men: perhaps this was because of Elves’ longevial existence. Neither Elves nor Ainur seem to have understood Men as well as they did one another: witness the emissaries of Valinor before the court of Tar-Atanamir as reported in the tellings of the Drowning of Númenor in _Sauron Defeated_, and in Arwen’s confession that the had thought the rebellious Númenóreans “wicked fools” until she herself confronted mortality; though Elves came much closer than Ainur (perhaps with the exception of Gandalf). 

Nor should premonition be confused with predestination: Time is funny stuff, even in the real world; and while we experience it sequentially (otherwise everything would happen at once!), that does not mean that Eru is so restricted: He is outside Time: He made it. That Elves – and Men – prophesied, and that these prophecies came to pass (the death of the Witch-king, the passage of the Paths of the Dead, the curse of Isildur upon the oath-breaking mountain folk who became the Dead, the foresight of Aragorn’s grandmother in encouraging the Arathorn’s suit with Gilraen, and Aragorn’s occasional foresights (with Elrond and Éomer); even the Doom of Mandos, which might fall under the same rubric), cannot be evidence of predestination if _Time is_ understood as _something which we experience as if __passing __through a stream, but_ _that can be seen __by its Creator at once and __in its entirety __as a complete tapestry._


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## Parsifal (Nov 20, 2010)

I see the main diferences in mentality. Elves seem more focused to one Art, achieving higher levels of it then Men could ever hope for (the Silmarils, the Rings, their Woodcraft and other forms of "Elvish Magic"), delighting in them and resisting change. Much like the Valar.

Men on the other hand have much more diverse interests, never achieving as much as the Elves with any of them, but having a store of knowledge and ability of all of them. Much like Melkor. Doesn't the Silmarilion say that in the eyes of Elves, Men seemed more like Melkor than like any other Valar?

This in effect means the Elves are driven along with the changing tides of the world, while Men are more able (and willing) to change it themselves. This also makes Men more dominant, impatient and indeed rebellious.


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