# Why couldn't Gandalf take on Sauron directly?



## dgoof911 (Jan 26, 2002)

*Gandalf and Sauron*

Could Gandalf deafeat Sauron? or could Gandalf have destroyed the Ring himself.


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## Harad (Jan 26, 2002)

Neither.

Gandalf was forbidden by the Wizards's Charter from fighting Sauron himself, but was allowed to help everybody else that was fighting him, a slight, but meaningless distinction.

Gandalf states the the only 2 ways to destroy the Ring is by fire: either the Cracks of Doom, or some Senior Dragon, the latter having been inconveniently exed out.


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## dgoof911 (Jan 26, 2002)

Why was he forbidden?


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## Harad (Jan 26, 2002)

Its just one of the Rules of Tolkien's Universe. The Rule was not STRICTLY adhered to since Gandalf strove with Sauron when Frodo wore the Ring on Amon Hen. Also Gandalf broke into Sauron's fortress in Dol Guldor to gather intelligence. Of course some will say these were not real confrontations, but that is just sophistry.


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## Snaga (Jan 26, 2002)

Harad

do you think he was forbidden by the Valar who sent him, or that he thought he was better off not confronting Sauron, for whatever reason? I've always thought the latter.

dgoof, Gandalf dared not bear the ring because he feared it would corrupt him. Therefore he did not dare to take it to Mt. Doom to destroy it. For definite he could not waved his staff at an melted it with some wizardry.


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## Harad (Jan 26, 2002)

VofK,
I remember--memory going--disk offline--some statement somewhere that the Wizards could not take "direct" action. That rule must have come from their bosses, the Valar.


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## Ragnarok (Jan 26, 2002)

I thought Sauron was the most powerful of the Maia? Therefore, I thought Gandalf could fight him, but would lose.


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## Harad (Jan 26, 2002)

I still can not find anything in LOTR about this "rule." Perhaps it was in supplemental material?

Its hard to accept thats its just a matter of Number 2 being afraid to fight Number 1.

Number 2's always want a chance at Number 1. How else to win the championship? Furthermore, Number 2 and Number 3 and Number 4, if they band together...


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## Rian (Jan 26, 2002)

In the ROTK, appendix B - under the heading "The Third Age", there is mention of this. 

"It was afterwards said that they came out of the far west and were messengers sent to contest the power of Sauron, and to unite all those who had the will to resist him; but they were forbbidden to match his power with power, or to seek to dominate Elves or Men by force or fear."


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## Harad (Jan 26, 2002)

Thanks Rian..wonder if that is the entire evidence of this concept?

if so "power with power" is very ambiguous. It would allow Gandalf to attack and destroy any servant of Sauron, and to deceive Sauron. If Sauron were on the other side of a door, could Gandalf hold the door? If Sauron were trying to take over the mind of Frodo on Amon Hen, could Gandalf oppose him?

As far as finding things I have found the passage wherein Gandalf takes credit for Amon Hen (Gandalf speaking in TTT, The White Rider Chapter:



> Very nearly it was revealed to the Enemy, but it escaped. I had some part in that; for I sat in a high place and strove with the Dark Tower; and the Shadow passed.



Doesnt this seem inconsistent with the Appendix. Hooray!! another nit.

Let me anticipate the answer: "Well you see, Gandalf was striving with the Dark Tower, not Sauron himself....Very different...Harrummphh."


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## aragil (Jan 26, 2002)

Much of the info is in Unfinished Tales, in the chapter The Istari (appropriately enough). I've used it in some threads in the movie forum to say that Gandalf could bump his head in a hobbit hole. I can't remember any exact quotes, but it basically said that they had to take the form of men, yada yada. Off hand I can't recall if it was more or less ambiguous than the passage from the appendix, but it definitely expounds on the limitations of their powers.


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## Beleg Strongbow (Jan 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ragnarok _
> *I thought Sauron was the most powerful of the Maia? Therefore, I thought Gandalf could fight him, but would lose. *




It is said in the Sil that gandalf was the most wisest of the maiar and Sauron was a maia od Aule! I personally think that Gandalf if he couldn't beat him with force or skill of hand he would have found some other way as he is wisest.


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## Harad (Jan 26, 2002)

Beleg,

At least this equation is true:


Gandalf + Frodo > Sauron


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## Snaga (Jan 27, 2002)

> It is said in the Sil that gandalf was the most wisest of the maiar and Sauron was a maia od Aule! I personally think that Gandalf if he couldn't beat him with force or skill of hand he would have found some other way as he is wisest.


 Beleg you are right. But kinda wise after the event too. As that's exactly what Gandalf does. 



> "It was afterwards said that they came out of the far west and were messengers sent to contest the power of Sauron, and to unite all those who had the will to resist him; but they were forbbidden to match his power with power, or to seek to dominate Elves or Men by force or fear."


 One interpretation of that is not that Gandalf is forbidden to try mortal combat should that be appropriate but that he can't try to set up a military force/try to rule ME.



> Much of the info is in Unfinished Tales, in the chapter The Istari (appropriately enough). I've used it in some threads in the movie forum to say that Gandalf could bump his head in a hobbit hole. I can't remember any exact quotes, but it basically said that they had to take the form of men, yada yada. Off hand I can't recall if it was more or less ambiguous than the passage from the appendix, but it definitely expounds on the limitations of their powers.


 Aragil - it would be splendid if you could actually tells us WHAT it says, rather than telling us that there is something somewhere that may or may not be relevant!


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## Harad (Jan 27, 2002)

I am not Aragil, but I have a lot more free time in my real life so:



> _from the Istari, "Unfinished Tales"_
> Emissaries they were from the Lords of the West, the Valar...they sent members of their own high order {the Istari were Valar?...but see below}...whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men or Elves by open display of power...
> 
> {oddly Saruman was their leader, but Cirdan knew that Gandalf was the key and gave him the Red Ring--how did Cirdan know?--this led to an under-the-surface animosity between Saruman & Gandalf that when waaay back before LOTR--I forgot about this!}
> ...


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## Firiel (Jan 27, 2002)

Doesn't it say somewhere in UT that both the rule against direct confrontation and the rule about physical incarnation were to atone for the Valar's "ancient error" of trying to get involved too much in the choices of Elves (and later Men) early on, which led to much trouble afterwards? (A reference back to some decisions in the Silmarilion?)

I'm probably being to vauge here. Let's see if I can find the passages I think I'm remembering, so I can state things more clearly...


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## HLGStrider (Aug 19, 2007)

I don't know if it is well supported, but it could be slightly supported by the text and the happenings in LotRs that when Gandalf returned as "the white" his restrictions were removed or at least lessened by the Valar. This could be for two possible reasons:

A. When the Valar sent the Istari (I don't know the year) the threat from Sauron was judged to be best handled by the Men and Elves who at this time had a stronger military presence and also greater leaders. When Gandalf returned the Elves were waning and the men had been without a declared king for sometime. It is only after Gandalf's return that Aragorn claims his birthright and strives to reunite mankind under his banner. Even so, his forces were pitiful when compared to those led by Elendil and Gil-Gilad. Hence the need was now greater and limitations were removed.

B. I'm not going to suggest allegory here, but I think we will all admit that Tolkien was influenced by Christian ideas and one such idea is of a perfect entity passing the ultimate test, paying the ultimate price, and returning in a more openly powerful form (not necessarily a more powerful form, but in a form with less limitations as to when and how he can reveal his power). 

In Christianity Adam fails a test and suffers a loss of purity and immortality. Thousands of years later, another entity emerges, is put to even more strenuous tests culminating with the loss of his life for others, and by enduring the ultimate humiliation (execution as a blasphemer/criminal/liar) breaks the bonds upon all humanity and returns as the revealed Son of God to preform greater more obvious miracles than he had pre-death. 

In Tolkien we have multiple incidences of entities failing tests. The Numenoreans fail their test. Isildur fails his test . . . but also, with the exception of Gandalf (and possibly Radaghast. He's a bit of an anomoly because while he didn't go bad, he didn't do a heck of a lot of good either.), every Istari seems to have failed their test. 
The illusive blue wizards are said to have fallen, possibily they started evil cults (or possibly they did not and were martyered even as Gandalf, but we are left with an untold story there). 
Radaghast was seduced by peace, I would say. He found a comfortable niche in Middle Earth and stayed there and as much as I like the idea of a Dr. Doolittle-ish Wizard talking to the animals for eternity, it really isn't what he was sent to do (I've heard otherwise theorized, but I'm going with the slacker theory for the sake of my theory.)
And Saruman was the most obvious failure. He was seduced by power. He even makes an attempt to "recruit" Gandalf and so doing provides another temptation.
Gandalf's Temptations: 
1. Radaghast style: Gandalf liked comfort. He was concerned with the little folk partially because he was comfortable around them. He liked amusing people with fireworks. He had a niche he could easily have slipped into.
2. Sarumen style: Unlike Saruman who fell to ring lust through lore alone, Gandalf frequently had the ring within his grasp and was once directly offered it.
3. Blue wizard style: Gandalf's travel was as extensive as his blue-brethren. Any temptation they would have endured, he would have endured.

This is followed by a sacrifice. 

Logically, it does not make sense for (arguably) the member of the fellowship with the most value to be the one who is lost first (well, from a literary point it makes a ton of sense because it provides the greatest tension. I mean, if they had lost Pippin they might've had a sad speech, but up to that point he had been more of a liability than an asset). Gandalf held the greatest power. 
Four of the members of the fellowship were proven warriors. It is very possible that Boromir or Legolas could have put up enough of a fight against the Balrog to delay his advance and allow the remaining fellowship to reach the far gate unhindered (Though I don't believe any of them would have had a chance of suceeding and it is possible that the delay would have only been minimal. We don't have a lot of examples of mortal to Balrog combat). At the very least you could have lined up Merry, Pippin, and Sam on the bridge and hope he took some time to season and roast each meal in turn before continuing on after the other six.
However, Gandalf, without hesitation, faces a foe who will most likely destroy him. He experiences a mortals death and his immortal nature returns to the Valar. . . and we know what happens next.
In Christianity the purest being is sacrificed in place of sinful beings in a dramatic reversal of justice. It must've seemed to the disciples that they had suffered an irreversable loss. They had lost the only one among them with power to raise the dead, heal the sick, draw thousands to his word and then feed them with minimal supplies. Very similar again. 

But I'm not trying to prove allegory here. I'm just going with suggested inspiration. 

Perhaps now risen, Gandalf has proven that he is deserving of the power he had been required to hold back, the power that had seduced one (and possibly three) of his brethren. He had proven that he would not use power to dominate but rather to protect. He had proven he would sacrifice his own life and all the potential for power (I'm guessing it would be much easier for an Istari to set up a private kingdom in Middle Earth than in Valinor) to aid those weaker than himself.

So here the similarities sort of diverge. Rather than being a perfect sacrifice that redeems other imperfect beings, Gandalf would be a powerful sacrifice that is elevated to a higher level of power.

I don't know if this holds water, but I think there is some semblence to the two stories. Not allegorical, but definitely one is a weak shadow of the other.


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## Starbrow (Aug 19, 2007)

When it says the Istari were forbidden to match Sauron's power with power, I assume it is referring to military power. Saruman broke this ban when he decided to become a power and dominate the men of Rohan, and surrounding areas. I don't see any evidence that Gandalf planned to challenge Sauron directly. He usually seems to have a supporting role. For instance, when the army goes to the Black Gate, Gandalf is the herald, not the king.


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## Thorondor_ (Aug 20, 2007)

Firiel said:


> Doesn't it say somewhere in UT that both the rule against direct confrontation and the rule about physical incarnation were to atone for the Valar's "ancient error" of trying to get involved too much in the choices of Elves (and later Men) early on, which led to much trouble afterwards?


Indeed:


The Istari said:


> And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed; whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men and Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt.





HLGStrider said:


> When the Valar sent the Istari (I don't know the year) the threat from Sauron was judged to be best handled by the Men and Elves who at this time had a stronger military presence and also greater leaders.


I agree:


Notes on motives in the Silmarillion said:


> Manwe knew of Sauron, of course. He had commanded Sauron to come before him for judgement, but had left room for repentance and ultimate rehabilitation. Sauron had refused and had fled into hiding. Sauron, however, was a problem that Men had to deal with finally: the first of the many concentrations of Evil into definite power-points that they would have to combat, as it was also the last of those in 'mythological' personalized (but non-human) form.





HLGStrider said:


> ... when Gandalf returned as "the white" his restrictions were removed or at least lessened by the Valar.


True, but not by the valar:


=Letter #156 said:


> He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. 'Naked I was sent back – for a brief time, until my task is done'. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time'.





HLGStrider said:


> with the exception of Gandalf (and possibly Radaghast. He's a bit of an anomoly because while he didn't go bad, he didn't do a heck of a lot of good either.), every Istari seems to have failed their test.


Well, they all practically failed the test, Gandalf passing it on a moral level:


Letter #156 said:


> The 'wizards', as such, had failed; or if you like: the crisis had become too grave and needed an enhancement of power.
> ...
> The 'wizards' were not exempt, indeed being incarnate were more likely to stray, or err. Gandalf alone fully passes the tests, on a moral plane anyway (he makes mistakes of judgement).


Insofar as the comparison to Christ, Tolkien said:


Letter #181 said:


> Thus Gandalf faced and suffered death; and came back or was sent back, as he says, with enhanced power. But though one may be in this reminded of the Gospels, it is not really the same thing at all. The Incarnation of God is an infinitely greater thing than anything I would dare to write. Here I am only concerned with Death as part of the nature, physical and spiritual, of Man, and with Hope without guarantees.


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## Bucky (Dec 20, 2007)

There is no question that 'rule' or no 'rule', to stay true to their mission, The Istari were banned from facing Sauron directly with power.....

As far as Gandalf being able to defeat Sauron one on one, I doubt it.
Dosen't Gandalf say that sauron is the mightiest being in Middle Earth?
Also that Saruman is the mightiest wisard & 'head of my order'?
Also that in a confrontation with The Witch-king (Lord of the Nazgul) before the Gates of Minas Tirith he 'may be overmatched'?

All these statements may be false humility or they may be Tolkien's way of telling us the truth......

Knowing Tolkien's use of the Christian parable, strength is made perfect in weakness, so most likely Gandalf is not the strongest being in Middle Earth, but the most pure of heart - and from there his power comes.
Gandalf himself states this to Frodo when offered The One ring as a freely given gift:

"The way of the ring to my heart is by pity, pity for weakness and the desire of strength to do good."


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## Daniel Thomas (Dec 12, 2018)

Harad said:


> Its just one of the Rules of Tolkien's Universe. The Rule was not STRICTLY adhered to since Gandalf strove with Sauron when Frodo wore the Ring on Amon Hen. Also Gandalf broke into Sauron's fortress in Dol Guldor to gather intelligence. Of course some will say these were not real confrontations, but that is just sophistry.


Because the valor were peaceful and thought it wrong to his mission


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## BalrogRingDestroyer (Dec 16, 2018)

Harad said:


> Neither.
> 
> Gandalf was forbidden by the Wizards's Charter from fighting Sauron himself, but was allowed to help everybody else that was fighting him, a slight, but meaningless distinction.
> 
> Gandalf states the the only 2 ways to destroy the Ring is by fire: either the Cracks of Doom, or some Senior Dragon, the latter having been inconveniently exed out.



Negative. A "Senior Dragon" could have probably destroyed the Great Rings, but Gandalf says that not even the dreaded Ancagalon the Black could have destroyed the Master Ring.



Harad said:


> Thanks Rian..wonder if that is the entire evidence of this concept?
> 
> if so "power with power" is very ambiguous. It would allow Gandalf to attack and destroy any servant of Sauron, and to deceive Sauron. If Sauron were on the other side of a door, could Gandalf hold the door? If Sauron were trying to take over the mind of Frodo on Amon Hen, could Gandalf oppose him?
> 
> ...



They had to have had a direct contact, even in the books. It says that Gandalf went to Dol Guldor to drive out the Necromancer, AKA Sauron. 

Also, if the rule were really imposed by the Valar, it would seem that Sauruman royally broke it with his actions, so maybe it was more of an honor system than actual force.


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## TolkienFanatic (Dec 22, 2018)

Sauron and the Ring are one. Sauron couldn't be destroyed while the Ring survived. Even without him possessing the Ring there is no hope to vanquish him without destroying it. Besides Gandalf would have probably been destroyed in a direct confrontation with Sauron at the time of the War. He feared he was overmatched even by the Witch-king. If he was destroyed could he have come back a second time? I doubt it. Then the story would have had to continue without him, and who knows how it might have ended!


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## BalrogRingDestroyer (Dec 28, 2018)

TolkienFanatic said:


> Sauron and the Ring are one. Sauron couldn't be destroyed while the Ring survived. Even without him possessing the Ring there is no hope to vanquish him without destroying it. Besides Gandalf would have probably been destroyed in a direct confrontation with Sauron at the time of the War. He feared he was overmatched even by the Witch-king. If he was destroyed could he have come back a second time? I doubt it. Then the story would have had to continue without him, and who knows how it might have ended!



I actually find that a bit hard to believe, as he was about even with a Balrog yet the so-called Witch-King, which, if the story is true, is just a regular man turned into a Nazgul, was supposedly too much for him (but apparently not for Merry and Eowyn.) 

Another thing, minus the whole limited strength thing, is why Saruman would want to delay taking out Sauron for. It would be EASIER to snag the Ring for himself without Sauron lurking around as the Necromancer near the place where the Ring was supposedly last at. If Sauron was again weakened, then it would be easier to look for the Ring and take over without Sauron and his armies lurking around as a rival.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Dec 29, 2018)

If by "regular man" you mean only that he was a mortal, that's true; however, he was, IIRC, already a king and mighty personality _before _being given his ring by Sauron. Indeed, in addition to creating minions to oppose the West, we could see the giving of the rings to mortal men as a strategy for controlling possible rivals.

In the event, the clash between him and Gandalf never takes place, as the intervention of the Rohirrim causes him to retreat.

As for Saruman's designs, they are given in the note to the entry for T.A. 2851, in Appendix B:


> It afterwards became clear that Saruman had then begun to to desire to possess the One Ring himself, and hoped that it might reveal itself, seeking it's master if Sauron were let be for a while.


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## TolkienFanatic (Jan 9, 2019)

BalrogRingDestroyer said:


> I actually find that a bit hard to believe, as he was about even with a Balrog yet the so-called Witch-King, which, if the story is true, is just a regular man turned into a Nazgul, was supposedly too much for him (but apparently not for Merry and Eowyn.)



I don't believe it's as simple as saying "elves are more powerful than men, maiar than elves, valar than maiar." Men can have power to match the maiar, although that power may be of a different sort. Anyway I don't think the Witch-king WAS a man. Having faded into the shadows you become something quite different than what you were before, much like Smeagol faded into Gollum or elves were twisted into orcs. Besides being formerly powerful kings of men the Nazgul had the aid of their rings.

"Yet now under the Lord of Barad-dur the most fell of all captains is already master of your outer walls," said Gandalf. "King of Angmar long ago, Sorcerer, Ringwraith, Lord of the Nazgul, a spear of terror in the hand of Sauron, shadow of despair."

"Then, Mithrandir, you have a foe to match you," said Denethor.... "Is this all you have returned to say? Or can it be that you have withdrawn because you are overmatched?"

Pippin trembled, fearing that Gandalf would be stung to sudden wrath, but his fear was needless. "It might be so," Gandalf answered softly. "But our trial of strength is not yet come.

_The Return of the King_, LoTR Book 5, Ch 4, _The Siege of Gondor_


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## Miguel (Jan 9, 2019)

I'm no expert in LOTR books but in the film, a lightning bolt hits Gandalf's sword before striking the Balrog, is that in the book?. If it is, is that some sort of help from Manwë or Eru?. Regardless, he came to ME robed in grey, not as Olórin, so his power was not naked.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jan 9, 2019)

Miguel said:


> the film


Ugh. Please. 

There's a thread (which I can't seem to find!) discussing the sequence in the book; maybe someone else can.

I'll quote just the most relevant parts from the book:


> From out of the shadow a red sword leaped flaming.
> Glamdring glittered white in answer.
> 
> There was a ringing clash and a stab of white fire. The Balrog fell back and its sword flew up in molten fragments. The wizard swayed on the bridge, stepped back a pace, and then again stood still.
> ...


So there were two flashes, one caused by the clash of swords, one by -- what? That was discussed in the other thread. I'll link it here, if and when I can find it.

What PJ made of this, I don't recall -- a hash, I expect.

Miguel, dude, are you telling us you don't have a copy of FOTR? 


EDIT: Ah here it is:

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/index.php?threads/sarumans-ring.3318/page-3

Mostly about staffs, but I suggested some possibilities concerning Gandalf's "cry".


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## Miguel (Jan 9, 2019)

I do have copies but they're in another continent, never got around to read them because i was spending most of that time learning the Quenta, they were next tho. 

So that fight in the mountains is never mentioned in the book after all?.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jan 9, 2019)

Oh, were you talking about the fight on Celebdil? I thought you meant Moria! 

The description of the last fight atop Celebdil comes, not directly, but as related by Gandalf, in TT:


> 'Those that looked up from afar thought that the mountain was crowned with storm. Thunder they heard, and lightning, they said, smote upon Celebdil, and leaped back broken into tongues of fire.'


That may be where PJ got his "lightning bolt", though as is clear from Gandalf's words, this was a mistaken impression of any who who may have "seen it from afar". Kind of appropriate, if you think about it.

Sorry to hear your copies of LOTR are also "afar", but I see individual volumes, and even box sets, at junk stores frequently. Just picked up a near mint set from 1978 at Goodwill last month. Worth looking around.


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## Miguel (Jan 9, 2019)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Oh, were you talking about the fight on Celebdil? I thought you meant Moria!
> 
> The description of the last fight atop Celebdil comes, not directly, but as related by Gandalf, in TT:
> 
> ...



Well i do like the bolt hitting the sword tho, but i can totally understand people who read the books way before the movie going_ "what is that?"_ when they saw it. 

I have a problem with reading for long periods of time, it gets me sleepy, and i tend to re-read lines too much, i don't know why, it's weird. That's why i hear the audiobooks, i prefer someone telling me the story, this does get me sleepy as well but not as fast as reading it. I need all the material in audiobook format.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jan 9, 2019)

OK. Still, a hard copy is useful for referencing specific sequences like this one.


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