# Lineage of Cirdan?



## Winch (Sep 3, 2002)

*Lineaage of Cirdan?*

I'm reading The Sil for the 2nd time and I still haven't figured out who Cirdan is. I know a little about him. One of the Teleri, lord of the Gray Havens, ship builder etc. But I don't see him listed in the charts. Is he a son of Elwe'?


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## Camille (Sep 3, 2002)

Probably not, he is one of the lords of the teleri, and I think he was the eldest of the elves on ME.


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## Mormegil (Sep 3, 2002)

I think Cirdan was one of the original Elves who awoke at Cuivienen.

Anyway, he definately wasn't a son of Elwe.


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## Winch (Sep 3, 2002)

I guess I was thinking all elves would fit under one of the 3 original kings. But not if there were many who awoke at the same time. But do you think he considered Elwe' to be his king? Wasn't Elwe' king of the Teleri or am I still getting all this confused.


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## Cian (Sep 3, 2002)

In _Last Writings_ Círdan was said to be "akin to Olwë" (thus to Elwë).

Pengoloð mentions a tradition (among the Sindar of Doriath) that Círdan had an original name among the Teleri (in archaic form) as _Nówé,_ original meaning of which was "uncertain". Círdan as a kinsman of Elwë is also mentioned in the text published in HOME _Quendi And Eldar_


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## Thorin (Sep 3, 2002)

Cirdan is the oldest elf on ME (beating Galadriel by about 2000 years), but I don't believe that he was one of the firstborn. He is first mentioned about 600 years after the elves awoke (HoME X, Morgoth's Ring. By this mention, he was already Lord of the Teleri among the shores.

I think because he was considered kin of some of the great elves, it shows that he was probably born.


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Mormegil _
> *I think Cirdan was one of the original Elves who awoke at Cuivienen.
> *



That's what I think too.Just because he wasn't mentioned at the very beginning doesn't mean he wasn't born at Cuivienen!


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## Thorin (Sep 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *
> 
> That's what I think too.Just because he wasn't mentioned at the very beginning doesn't mean he wasn't born at Cuivienen! *



Yes, but it goes the other way as well. The fact that he was not mentioned as one of the original elves could prove that he was not in fact one of the firstborn. The fact that he was "kin" to Elwe shows some sort of lineage before him. I do not believe that Elwe was even one of the original. It was a good many years before the elves even began the journey to Valinor. Even Finwe is not mentioned as being one of the firstborn, just that he was one of the ambassadors of the elves to go to Valinor.


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## Theoden (Sep 4, 2002)

It seems to me that he was one of the first elves, awoken by Iluvitar. I don't recall why, but after reading the chapter in which he is first mentioned, one gets the impression that he has been around since the beginning.

-me


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## Hama (Sep 4, 2002)

My lord Theoden:
I agree that one is given the impression in the Silmarillion that Elwe, Finwe and Ingwe were among the original Elves born at Cuivienen. It can also be argued that at least Elwe was not, because he was the brother of Olwe. Similiarly Cirdan was related to Olwe and Elwe. However, I believe that a case can be made using the Ainur. Lorien and Mandos are said to have been brothers, and Melian was said to have been akin to Yavanna herself. However, all of them were created of the same matter, is it not so? Perhaps Olwe and Elwe were akin but were not born of the same mother, if you get what I mean. I have looked but am unable to find anything concrete on the origins of Cirdan, or the origins of Finwe, Ingwe, Olwe and Elwe either.


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## Tar-Elenion (Sep 4, 2002)

Ingwe, Finwe, Elwe, Olwe, Cirdan did not awaken at Cuivienen, They are not of the 144 first Elves (the Unbegotten). JRRT wgote that the Unbegotten awoke each with their respective spouse. Thus their were 72 pairs each of husband and wife. Elwe had Melian the Maia as his wife and she was not one of the Unbegotten. Hence Elwe did not Awake but was born as were his brothers (Olwe and Elmo). Finwe wed Miriel who had a mother-name (Serinde) and thus had a mother. Hence Miriel did not Awake so Finwe did not Awake. Ingwe had a sister (Indis or Indis mother depending on version), thus Ingwe had parents. Cirdan is said to be kin to Elwe (I image a cousin of some sort), and so unless he is Elwe's (fore)father he did not Awake at Cuivienen but was born.


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## Winch (Sep 5, 2002)

And your source is?


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## Cian (Sep 5, 2002)

Tar-Elenion's source (for general information on the Unbegotten anyway) is _Quendi And Eldar_ and the _Cuivienyarna,_ the legend of the awakening of the Quendi, both published in _The War Of The Jewels._

The latter is intended to be, in style and whatnot, to be a surviving 'fairytale' or Elf-child's tale, mingled with counting lore.

In _Quendi And Eldar_ the legend of the three Elf-fathers: _Imin, Tata,_ and _Enel_ and the Three Clans was said to be preserved in almost identical form among both the Elves of Aman and the Sindar.


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## redline2200 (Apr 14, 2003)

*Círdan at Cuiviénen*

Was Círdan the shipwright one if the first elves that awoke at Cuiviénen? I have always wondered this; if he wasn't, then does anyone know his father?


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## Confusticated (Apr 14, 2003)

Merged this thread with an older one on the topic. The question is also answered by a couple people in the first several posts of this thread:
The Cottage of Lost Lore


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## redline2200 (Apr 14, 2003)

So if Tar-Elenion's right,then is there ANY elves at all in the fourth age that have been around since the beginning?I always thought Ingwë being the high king of all elves had been around since the beginning and he lived into the fourth age. If Tar-Elenion's correct than are there any elves still alive that had seen Cuivienen?


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## Confusticated (Apr 15, 2003)

Hmm... does it say anywhere at any point that Cirdan was the oldest elf in Middle-earth? If so, then No.

If not, then I don't think it can be ruled out. 
If we take that the leaders named in The Silmarillion are not of the first generation of elves, and that some of the first generation of elves where still alive when the elves set forth to Valinor, then we really have no idea what happend to these original elves and for all we know (as far as I know) some could have lived through the first three ages.

Elves by the numbers offers the same reasons that Tar-Elenion gave.


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## Brytta (Apr 15, 2003)

Cian wrote:



> In Last Writings Círdan was said to be "akin to Olwë" (thus to Elwë).



I can't remeber any interaction between Círdan and Elwë in the _Sil_ or any other writings concerning ME. Can anyone else remember such a meeting, and, if so, do Círdan and Elwë acknowledge their kinship?


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 15, 2003)

From _Of the Sindar_:



> Now as has been told the power of Elwë and Melian increased in Middle-earth, and all the Elves of Beleriand, from the mariners of Círdan to the wandering hunters of the Blue Mountains beyond the River Gelion, owned Elwë as their lord; Elu Thingol he was called, King Greymantle, in the tongue of his people. They are called the Sindar, the Grey-elves of starlit Beleriand;





> Now Melian had much foresight, after the manner of the Maiar; and when the second age of the captivity of Melkor had passed, she counselled Thingol that the Peace of Arda would not last for ever. He took thought therefore how he should make for himself a kingly dwelling, and a place that should be strong, if evil were to awake again in Middle-earth; and he sought aid and counsel of the Dwarves of Belegost. They gave it willingly, for they were unwearied in those days and eager for new works; and though the Dwarves ever demanded a price for all that they did, whether with delight or with toil, at this time they held themselves paid. For Melian taught them much that they were eager to learn, and Thingol rewarded them with many fair pearls. These Círdan gave to him, for they were got in great number in the shallow waters about the Isle of Balar; but the Naugrim had not before seen their like, and they held them dear. One there was as great as a dove's egg, and its sheen was as starlight on the foam of the sea; Nimphelos it was named, and the chieftain of the Dwarves of Belegost prized it above a mountain of wealth.



This shows that there was some sort of interaction between the Doriathrim and the Falathrim.


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## Confusticated (Apr 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Brytta _
> *I can't remeber any interaction between Círdan and Elwë in the Sil or any other writings concerning ME. Can anyone else remember such a meeting, and, if so, do Círdan and Elwë acknowledge their kinship? *



I don't know of any writing about a meeting between the two, but they were in contact through messengers.

The only mentions of the kinship I know of are the one Cian gave from _Last Writings_ and a mention in _Qunedi and Eldar_, where it is said that Silver hair was not common among the Sindar, but was found sometimes and especially among Elwe's kin, and here Cirdan is given as an example.

Though, in _Last Writings_ is it told that Cirdan was the leader of those who remained in Middle-earth searching for Elwe when Olwe and his people left (the Eglath).

I wonder about the point that Hama brought up:


> Perhaps Olwe and Elwe were akin but were not born of the same mother, if you get what I mean.


I don't know why there could not have been kinship among the first to awaken. ?

What reason is there that the first elves should not have been akin to eachother, such as in a brotherly way. But then, who knows what Iluvatar was thinking.

Hmm.. anyone know the reasons for Tolkien deciding there would be no children of the Valar? Could their kinships with eachother have been one of the reasons? If so, then it could be used to speculate that the first elves were not akin, but it is a leap.


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## redline2200 (Apr 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Nóm _
> *I don't know why there could not have been kinship among the first to awaken. ?
> *



That is the only possibility. 
We know Thingol (or Elwë) was among the original elves that were not born to any other elves. Look at his last words that he said to the dwarves:

The Silmarillion


> How do you of uncouth race dare to demand aught of me, Elu Thingol, Lord of Beleriand, whose life began by the waters of Cuivienen years uncounted before ere the fathers of the stunted people awoke?



So if Elwë and Olwë were akin, then there would have to be kinship among the firstborn, based on the fact that Elwë was one of the original elves.


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 15, 2003)

> How do you of uncouth race dare to demand aught of me, Elu Thingol, Lord of Beleriand, whose life began by the waters of Cuivienen years uncounted before ere the fathers of the stunted people awoke?



This quote proves nothing, redline2200. It goes both ways. It can either mean that Thingol _awoke_ by Cuivienen, or that he was born there. For some reason I find the latter more likely.


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## Inderjit S (Apr 15, 2003)

> based on the fact that Elwë was one of the original elves.



Fact? What facts? We know that all 144 Elves that awoke at Cuivenien were all espoused, whereas Elwe was young, free and single at the time of his meeting with Melian (Unsuprisngly  

He also had two brothers, and other relatives, such as Eol and Cirdan.

It is problably as ith. says it was just a reference to his awakening at Cuivienien, not him being among the first to wake there.

Also, looking at the canonical context of your post, it seems dubious, as to whether Tolkien wrote it, since it is a part of the infamous 'Fall of Doriath' chapter, a lot of which was written by C. Tolkien or Guy Kay, since information on that chapter was scarce.


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## Flame of Anor (Apr 15, 2003)

This is what the Encyclopedia of Arda says:

Círdan the Shipwright
The keeper of the Grey Havens


Timeline: See Attached


Dates: Uncertain. Possibly awoke at Cuiviénen, probably sailed into the West with the last ship some time in the Fourth Age 
Race: Elves 
Division: Teleri 
Family: Not known. Possibly of the kin of Olwë. 
Titles: The Shipwright 
Pronunciation: keer'dan 
Meaning: Literally 'ship-wright' 


A lord of the Teleri in Middle-earth, Círdan was persuaded to remain in Beleriand with some of his people by Ossë when the other Teleri were taken into the West by Ulmo. Lord of the Falas during much of the First Age, he removed to the Isle of Balar after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. At the end of the First Age, with the destruction of Beleriand, he moved eastwards and founded Mithlond, the Grey Havens, on the Gulf of Lhûn.

He remained in Lindon throughout the Second and Third Ages. Throughout the Second Age, that land was under the direct rule of High King Gil-galad. At the time of the fall of Eregion, Celebrimbor sent two of the Three Rings north to the High King, and Gil-galad in turn passed one of these to Círdan; Narya, the Ring of Fire. At the end of the Second Age, Gil-galad fell in the War of the Last Alliance, leaving Lindon without a ruler. His natural heir would have been Elrond, who had long since removed to Imladris, and so Círdan took on the leadership of the Elves west of the Blue Mountains.

Círdan continued to maintain the havens at Mithlond throughout the Third Age and into the Fourth. When the Wizards arrived in Middle-earth, he perceived that Gandalf was the wisest of them, and gave him the Red Ring to bear in secret. He took an active part in the events of the Third Age, too; it was his mariners, for example, who sought to rescue Arvedui the last King of Arthedain. He was still the master of the Grey Havens at the end of the Age, when he saw the Ring-bearers' White Ship, that he had held in preparation over the long years, pass into the West.

EDIT: Picture was deleted to save on attachment quota


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## Aiwendil2 (Apr 15, 2003)

That quote from 'Of the Ruin of Doriath', as Inderjit implied, was not written by Tolkien. For Tolkien's writings on the subject of Thingol's death see II (for a clearly discared version) and especially IV and XI.


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## Beleg (Apr 16, 2003)

Even if take that Quote as Canonical Evidence it only proves that Thingol was born before the Dwarves and nothing else.


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