# Did Melkor have free will?



## Mimzy (Jun 10, 2011)

Or did Eru create him as evil purposefully? I'm thinking of a line in Ainulindale where Eru tells him to the tune of 'anything you sing ultimately comes from me'. does that mean that Eru made Melkor evil on purpose because he is part of the design of Arda?


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## Sulimo (Jun 10, 2011)

One could take the same approach to God and Satan. In this regard I personally believe that Melkor, just like Satan had free will. He had potential to do great deeds for good, but choose his own selfish machinations. 

I do not believe that Illuvatar was surprised by Melkor's actions, but I also do not believe that he was responsible for them. That would be like blaming God for me cheating on my test. Its not God's fault I looked at Sam's paper. I was in a situation where I clearly knew right from wrong, but I chose to cheat. It is ludicrous for me to blame God, because I was placed in a tempting situation and I sinned. I believe that, Melkor could have ended up differently, but he consistently made selfish decisions. 

Now one could easily, and in my opinion effectively argue that it was a lot more difficult to withstand temptation for Melkor then the other Ainur. Because Illvatar made him the most powerful. He was given gifts not given to the others, and by means of these gifts he had the free will to use them as he pleased. 

Manwe the second most powerful, was also given many gifts, but he was not even given the ability to fathom evil. Melkor was given the ability not only to comprehend evil, but to understand and perform it. That did not mean he had to become evil, and it does not mean that he was incapable of doing good. In some ways its better to have evil be some abstract thing that is incomprehensible then something that you understand. One Ainu simply accepts the will of Illuvatar without questions. However, Melkor was given an option. He could accept and perform in harmony with his brethren, or he could go his own way. That makes for a much more complicated situation then many of the others were ever placed. 

It all come backs to the spider man line. With great power comes great responsibility. Melkor, squandered the gifts from Illuvatar. He caused pain and suffering by his own actions. I do not think that this meant that he had to become evil. He chose to go down the path he went down, to the dismay of Illuvatar.


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## Turin's Friend (Jun 29, 2011)

I think all of Iluvatar's children or creations are given free will. I am not sure Tolkien termed the Ainur as his children , but it seems as good a way to define them as any. I also like to think Iluvatar was a god who would wish for the love of his children. If they do not have free will then for them to love Iluvatar as their own choice would be impossible. Free will sets the stage for all struggles in heaven and on earth. To struggle would be part of Iluvatar's plan. So that all his offspring could see that when their love is given freely they are also given gifts in return. Gifts such as light, water, happiness, a good earth. If love or worship is given to Melkor the things given in return are likely to be pain and suffering. I am not sure I understand why Manwe would not be able to fathom evil other than it basically does not exist until Melkor performs acts taken as evil. Sometimes I think that Melkor's acts could just be defined as a different type of world. Who is to say what is right and what is wrong? If life develops on a different chunk of matter and that world becomes filled with spirits more akin to Melkor than what would evil look like there?
After giving this even more thought I began to feel that first shouldn't one define free will. At what level of action do we say an act is free will? For Melkor is it when he thinks on his own or must he actually start his change to the music of the Ainur to perform an act of free will. 
This is a topic I don't think I can really say one answer or beleif is right or wrong. After I read the article on Wikipedia I am no closer to thinking there is a right or wrong answer.


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## Sulimo (Jul 4, 2011)

Turin's Friend, those are some great and engaging points. I want to touch on some of the details, but once more I must hold off a bit. I feel that you are correct to first establish weather or not we are using the same definition of free will. I will hazard egg on my face, by right now saying what my unresearched definition of free will is, and then read into the matter in further detail, and come back with my refined definition.

Free will is an innate ability of all sentient beings. This ability allows them to freely make decisions based on their own rational moral deductions of right and wrong, and basically not have their decisions predetermined for them. However, this issue quickly becomes incredibly complicated with the existence of an omnipresent God. 

The Garden of Eden is a good example of this in action. Man was placed in a situation where only one thing was off bounds. That was obviously the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. I personally think it was a fig tree, but I digress. We are about to encounter a serious question. Did God purposefully intend to condemn his creations, by placing overpowering temptation within grasp? If the answer is yes then there is no free will, and God meant to damn us all along. Which in my opinion makes for a rather cruel God. 

However, if it was possible that man could live in harmony with the tree, and use it as a symbol for obedience, then man could elect not to eat of the fruit, and thus by means of his own free will remain peacefully in the garden. When man did fall into temptation as I described with Illuvator and Melkor, I do not believe that God was surprised, but disappointed. By giving his creation the ability to choose between right and wrong he gave them the power to save or damn themselves. It makes for a very bittersweet drink. 

I feel this is not the best description of an extremely complicated issue. Just a very brief glimpse into the nature of free will. I will look into this more, and tie it all back into Tolkien tomorrow.


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## EllieW (Aug 20, 2016)

I found a discussion about this on another site and I was wondering about it as well.

You see, Eru told melkor that "no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me" this and few other parts made me believe that Eru planned Melkors' demise. I mean if Eru planned it then Melkor had no choice but to play villain.

I do believe that he and other valar had some free will but not 100%, for example Yavanna couldn't hate nature because she was created to love it, I think that Melkor was made to cause trouble for others and even if he didn't want to he couldn't help it. 

If this was the case then he wasn't really rebeling against Eru, he was just doing what he was made to do. 

Oh and another thing, why didn't Eru destroy Melkor if he knew he was evil (if Eru didn't want him to be evil)? I think he knew that Melkor of all valar had the will to change, maybe he was hoping Melkor would try to fight his "destiny". If he wanted Melkor to be evil and die, well...that kinda cruel.

But this is just my theory, everybody sees it differently.

What do you think about this, did he have free will or not, and if you see it like I do, do you think he could've chosen a different path? And was it ever possible for him and other valar to live in peace?


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## CirdanLinweilin (Aug 20, 2016)

If Melkor was destroyed before his evil deeds...

Then we wouldn't have entertaining, tragic, but heroic deeds to stop him.

Also, No Melkor = No Sauron = No "The Hobbit" = No "The Lord of the Rings"

Plot, I guess.

As a Catholic, God allows evil deeds so greater Good deeds could be made out of it.

God, or Eru, in this instance, made many good deeds come out of Melkor's villainy.

Without Melkor's evil, we wouldn't have the vast histories of Middle-earth now would we? 

CirdanLineweilin


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## EllieW (Aug 20, 2016)

Hehehe true true, we all must thank him for great books and movies  

Melkor lord of literature and cinema!!!

Thats exactly the problem I have, if Eru did make Melkor evil to create balance or greater good then killing him just to perfect his own work is kinda cruel  if he brings him back after all that then its all good but if not, well...its kinda unfair.


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## CirdanLinweilin (Aug 20, 2016)

He'll come back...


...aaaaaand promptly get the killing stroke dealt to him by Turin.

I'm not Eru, so I don't know if Melkor was created to be evil. Satan made an active choice of free will to rebel against God, and we know Tolkien based Eru and Melkor off his own faith, so I think Melkor rebelled of his own volition, but again I'm not these characters so I wouldn't know.

Awesome pick for a topic, really gets you thinking.

CL


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## EllieW (Aug 21, 2016)

I too believe that Satan made the choice to be evil and that Melkor was based on him. If he did choose to be evil then yes he did deserve everything that happened to him, It's just hard to say for sure because a lot of lines point to that Eru planned his fate, but there are also parts that point to that it was his own choice. Maybe Tolkien wanted to write it as such but changed his mind later or he just accidentally overcomplicated it XD

I once found an interesting theory/headcanon about this. What if Melkor thought he could rebel but after the song he realised that he couldn't and that he was "evil" from the beginning so he decided to play along and stop fighting his fate, even though he didn't like it. And Eru didn't want him to stop fighting because he knew Melkor had the power to change.

It's kinda how God pushes us the right way, we may still choose the wrong one but he will keep guiding us, maybe Eru was trying to do the same.

Yea, it's very interesting, but so are many other discussion topics here since many things were left unsaid in the book and we can just speculate. This is also something I love about this book, I do like when everything is explained but sometimes I prefer to choose what to believe. 
I think that I've read somewhere that Tolkien wanted his readers to interpret his work as they wanted, but I don't know if that's true or not.


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## Retro (Sep 10, 2016)

Also, it should be noted that Melkor actually contributed to some benefit and beauty in Arda. I believe that he was the reason for mountains coming into existance, for example.


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## DarkLordMelkor (Oct 6, 2016)

Satan to God
Melkor to Eru 

Same plot.


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## Ingolmin (Nov 11, 2016)

Dagor Dagorath will soon happen before the ending of the world and Ar Pharazon and his army will wake up from their long sleep and fight the greatest all beings Melkor only less than Eru Illuvitar.


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