# Elves and birth



## Sarde (Jan 13, 2004)

I have questions about Elves. I have not even read the whole of TLOTR yet, so please forgive me if my questions are somewhat stupid. I just don't want to wait another 750 pages for my answers, if they are there at all. 

- As far as I understand, Elves do not age. So are they 'born' the way they are (as 'adults')? Or do they get born as babies and stop aging at a certain point? If so, at what point? How does it all work? Do Elves procreate the same way we do?

- If you cross an Elf and a Mortal (let's say Arwen and Aragorn), is the baby immortal?


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## celebdraug (Jan 13, 2004)

Sarde said:


> - If you cross an Elf and a Mortal (let's say Arwen and Aragorn), is the baby immortal?


Yea! so is Eldrond! He is half mortal! Elwing and Earendil's son!


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## Sarde (Jan 13, 2004)

Oh okay, I didn't know that yet. So does the fact that Elrond (in the movies) looks older than any of the other Elves have anything to do with that? Or are Half-Elfs also ageless?


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## Barliman Butterbur (Jan 13, 2004)

Sarde said:


> I have questions about Elves. I have not even read the whole of TLOTR yet, so please forgive me if my questions are somewhat stupid. I just don't want to wait another 750 pages for my answers, if they are there at all.
> 
> - As far as I understand, Elves do not age. So are they 'born' the way they are (as 'adults')? Or do they get born as babies and stop aging at a certain point? If so, at what point? How does it all work? Do Elves procreate the same way we do?
> 
> - If you cross an Elf and a Mortal (let's say Arwen and Aragorn), is the baby immortal?



My general impression is (not having read anything conclusive from Tolkien's letters — yet — which may shed light) is that they do "everything" the way we do, only at some point (apparently somewhere in their mid-20s to mid-30s) they simply stop aging. At least that's the impression I get from reading LOTR.

If you go by the movies (and you really shouldn't) then you must wonder how Elrond (played by Hugo Weaving) and Galadriel (played by Kate Blanchette) for instance, somehow aged more "than yer average Elf." Maybe it was stress.

Elrond Halfelven was a "hybrid," and seemed to be unaffected. The child of Arwen and Aragorn was only 25% Elf therefore. So I would assume he would at least have quite a long life. But this is only conjecture, and as such the speculation potential is endless. 

For myself, I prefer "hard evidence" wherever possible, such as an explanatory passage from a Tolkien letter which would settle the matter beyond doubt.

Discussing such burning issues as who might be invited to a baby Balrog's birthday party, and what (more likely who) might they eat there are subjects which I prefer to leave alone.

Lotho


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## Sarde (Jan 13, 2004)

Thank you Lotho, that clarifies a lot.

Just one more thing about Arwen/Aragorn's baby... You say 25% Elf. Elrond is 50% Elf, yes? And Arwen's mother is Elfkind or Mankind? If Elfkind, Arwen would be,what , 75% Elf and if Mankind, Arwen would be 25% Elf. So the child of Arwen and Aragorn would then be either 37.5% Elf or 12.5% Elf. Is my math making sense? 

I am trying to think how it worked again with horses, because I remember it doesn't work in a mathematical way like what I'm doing above. I used to own a horse whose father was 100% Arabian and his mother was 50% Arabian. I would expect that my horse would then have been 75% Arabian, but I know it wasn't so. It was a different percentage, I just don't know how they calculated it.

Very useless discussion, but fun nonetheless.


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## Lantarion (Jan 13, 2004)

Sense yes, but not much point. 
Welcome to TTF Sarde. 

Elrond's wife Celebrían was the daughter of Galadriel and Celeborn, and was therefore 100% Elf. 

But abot Elves aging: in the History of Middle-earth-series, I believe it is stated that the Quendi do indeed age, but extremely slowly so that to mortal eyes and senses they do not seem to age at all. Remember Círdan's beard (and remember how long it must have taken to grow it ).

In the case of Aragorn and Arwen's child, Eldarion, I think he would be completely mortal, because Arwen forsook her immortality (a choice which I believe was only available for descendants of the Peredhil or Half-elven, descended from Beren and Lúthien).


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## Barliman Butterbur (Jan 13, 2004)

Sarde said:


> Thank you Lotho, that clarifies a lot.
> 
> Just one more thing about Arwen/Aragorn's baby... You say 25% Elf. Elrond is 50% Elf, yes? And Arwen's mother is Elfkind or Mankind? If Elfkind, Arwen would be,what , 75% Elf and if Mankind, Arwen would be 25% Elf. So the child of Arwen and Aragorn would then be either 37.5% Elf or 12.5% Elf. Is my math making sense?
> Very useless discussion, but fun nonetheless.



Ah, now you have brought in factors that complicate the equation still more! I'm not sure about Arwen's mother, probably full Elf. I am sure however, that others on this board will rush here to give you more info than you wanted to know! 

I'm sure your math makes perfect sense, but don't be surprised if others will tell you something else, and go off on long disquisitions on mathematics in its most esoteric, abstruse and stratified forms!

Enjoy yourself and welcome aboard!

Lotho


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## Arvedui (Jan 13, 2004)

I think that Eärendil is the only "real" Half-Elf, and he was immortal. I don't have The Sil handy at the moment, but as far as I remember, the list is like this:
Melian (Maia) + Thingol (Elf) = Lúthien (50/50 Elf/Maia)
Lúthien + Beren (Man) = Dior (50% Man, 25% Elf, 25% Maia)
Dior + Nimloth (Elf) = Elwing, Eluréd, Elurín (12,5% Maia, 33,6% Elf, 33,6% Man)????


Tuor (Man) + Idril (Elf) = Eärendil (50/50 Elf/Man)


Eärendil + Elwing = Elrond & Elros (Figure that one out yourself!)


Elrond + Celebrian = Arwen (+ Elrohir & Elladan)


Of these, Lúthien was immortal, but choose to become mortal.
Dior remained immortal. (Though he was slain)
Elwing was immortal. (Perhaps that should be *is* immortal?)
So was (is) Eärendil.
The rest (Elrond, Elros, Arwen, Elrohir & Elladan) had to choose. It is a strange thing though, that although the children of Elrond had a choice, the children of Elros had not, as he choose to become mortal.


I don't know if this gives any meaning at all, but at least it is my best attempt at giving an answer. And someone will probably come along and find the flaws that I have made. Maths is NOT a subject I excel at... 


_EDIT: That's what you get for being lousy at math. So many people posted while I was counting fingers... Oh, well._


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## Barliman Butterbur (Jan 13, 2004)

Sarde said:


> Oh okay, I didn't know that yet. So does the fact that Elrond (in the movies) looks older than any of the other Elves have anything to do with that? Or are Half-Elfs also ageless?



Well, when you get into movies you get into annoying realities such as the actual ages of the various actors — spoilsports!

Lotho


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## Lantarion (Jan 13, 2004)

Ah Arvedui thanks for that, I had missed one couple out. 
Lotho do not post several posts in a row, edit them into your previous ones whenever prudent.


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## Gothmog (Jan 13, 2004)

> For myself, I prefer "hard evidence" wherever possible, such as an explanatory passage from a Tolkien letter which would settle the matter beyond doubt.


Well here is some information from the pen of the Master.

Morgoth's Ring:OF THE LAWS AND CUSTOMS AMONG THE ELDAR PERTAINING TO MARRIAGE AND OTHER MATTERS


> [The Eldar grew in bodily form slower than Men, but in mind more swiftly. They learned to speak before they were one year old; and in the same time they learned to walk and to dance, for their wills came soon to the mastery of their bodies. Nonetheless there was less difference between the two Kindreds, Elves and Men, in early youth; and a man who watched elf-children at play might well have believed that they were the children of Men, of some fair and happy people. For in their early days elf-children delighted still in the world about them, and the fire of their spirit had not consumed them, and the burden of memory was still light upon them.(1)
> This same watcher might indeed have wondered at the small limbs and stature of these children, judging their age by their skill in words and grace in motion. For at the end of the third year mortal children began to outstrip the Elves, hastening on to a full stature while the Elves lingered in the first spring of childhood. Children of Men might reach their full height while Eldar of the same age were still in body like to mortals of no more than seven years.(2) Not until the fiftieth year did the Eldar attain the stature and shape in which their lives would afterwards endure, and for some a hundred years would pass before they were full-grown.]


And a little further


> As for the begetting and bearing of children: a year passes between the begetting and the birth of an elf-child, so that the days of both are the same or nearly so, and it is the day of begetting that is remembered year by year. For the most part these days come in the Spring. It might be thought that, since the Eldar do not (as Men deem) grow old in body, they may bring forth children at any time in the ages of their lives. But this is not so. For the Eldar do indeed grow older, even if slowly: the limit of their lives is the life of Arda, which though long beyond the reckoning of Men is not endless, and ages also. Moreover their body and spirit are not separated but coherent. As the weight of the years, with all their changes of desire and thought, gathers upon the spirit of the Eldar, so do the impulses and moods of their bodies change. This the Eldar mean when they speak of their spirits consuming them; and they say that ere Arda ends all the Eldalie on earth will have become as spirits invisible to mortal eyes, unless they will to be seen by some among Men into whose minds they may enter directly.


Hope that is of some help.


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## Sarde (Jan 13, 2004)

Lantarion said:


> Remember Círdan's beard (and remember how long it must have taken to grow it ).



I didn't make it there yet, the Fellowship and I have just arrived in Lothlorien and are about to meet Galadriel. But I'll keep my eyes out for that beard!  Or is it in one of the other books?

Thanks for the quotes, Gothmog, they are certainly helpful.

You know, somehow, Elves and having sex do not mix well in my mind. I would imagine them to conceive a child by some higher means. Sex seems such a base and animal-like thing for beings so high and, well, spiritual as Elves are. But then again, Legolas...  Well, whatever. 

By the way, sorry about putting my thread in the wrong part of the forum.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Jan 13, 2004)

Sarde said:


> ...somehow, Elves and having sex do not mix well in my mind. I would imagine them to conceive a child by some higher means. Sex seems such a base and animal-like thing for beings so high and, well, spiritual as Elves are. But then again, Legolas...  Well, whatever.



It depends on the point of view of the participants. I would imagine that Elves approached it from the very highest kind of attitude, an opportunity to create new life... 

(Thank God they didn't have today's HMOs to deal with! Due to the shock and possible relapse of the patient at seeing the final bill, many hospitals have moved the finance office next to the recovery room.)



Lantarion said:


> Lotho do not post several posts in a row, edit them into your previous ones whenever prudent.



Sorry about that, didn't realize that was going on. In fact, there's something funny happening with the site, at least on my computer: it seems that some posts, by the nature of their content are being posted out of sequence. (???)

Lotho

EDIT: You did it again!


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## Greenwood (Jan 13, 2004)

> It is a strange thing though, that although the children of Elrond had a choice, the children of Elros had not, as he choose to become mortal.



The choices of the children of both Elros and Elrond were tied to their fathers's choice. Elros's children were given long lifes (several times that of normal men) and were the kings of Numenor and later the the Arnor and Gondor in Middle Earth. Elrond's children choice was to leave Middle Earth with him when he chose to go into the West (and stay of elf kind) or remain in Middle Earth and become mortal. 

As has already been said, elves aged tremendously slowly compared to men and Elrond was thousands of years old (as was Galadriel), so it is appropriate for him to not look like a youngster.


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## Lantarion (Jan 13, 2004)

Greenwood said:


> As has already been said, elves aged tremendously slowly compared to men and Elrond was thousands of years old (as was Galadriel), so it is appropriate for him to not look like a youngster.


It is only appropriate in our 'Mannish' point of view though! 
Remember, Elrond wouldn't look any different from a 200-year old Elf, age-wise, even though he would have been over ten times older than him!
And while cetainly no 'mature' Elf would look like a 'youngster', even the very oldest Elves did not have characteristics which we would rationally assign for elderly people. They would have looked like, say, fit 30-year-old Men at 'oldest'. 
But their age was said to be seen in their eyes, their depth and colour.


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## Sarde (Jan 13, 2004)

Lotho_Pimple said:


> It depends on the point of view of the participants. I would imagine that Elves approached it from the very highest kind of attitude, an opportunity to create new life...
> 
> (Thank God they didn't have today's HMOs to deal with! Due to the shock and possible relapse of the patient at seeing the final bill, many hospitals have moved the finance office next to the recovery room.)


Pardon my ignorance, but what's an HMO? Hospital something I guess.


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## Maerbenn (Jan 16, 2004)

*Dior*



Arvedui said:


> Dior remained immortal.


From HoMe V: _The Lost Road and Other Writings_:


> 'Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me. This is my decree: to Earendel and to Elwing and to their sons shall be given leave each to choose freely under which kindred they shall be judged.'


Dior was said to be the first of the Half-elves (Q. Pereldar, S. Peredhil), but according to this decree, Dior was mortal.


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## Arvedui (Jan 16, 2004)

I don't agree (obviously ). 
The decree you are referring to was given years after Dior lived. But then of course he was slain, so we will probably never know if he would be counted among the Firstborn or not.
But one detail that lead me to believe that Dior was indeed counted among the Firstborn: Dior was the heir of Thingol in Doriath. I don't believe the Elves of Doriath would have accepted a Mortal as their King.


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