# Saruman - the unanswered questions.



## Úlairi (Dec 8, 2003)

Alrightio, time to ask these questions of you. Most of this is based on Gandalf's account of what happened to him when Saruman took him spoken at the Council of Elrond. So, here are the questions. We know that Saruman is a cunning Maia, capable of great treachery which is what we see in tFOTR. 

*Question 1: Why didn't Saruman convince Gandalf to bring the Ring to Orthanc where it would be safe until a better course of action could be taken?*

Of course, before Saruman revealed his nature to Gandalf, Gandalf really had no idea of his mind. So, why didn't Saruman use his cunning and do as I said above??? It would be a convincing argument and also probable. Isengard itself was a fortress, and if guarded by two Maia would be extremely hard to conquer. Once the Ring is at Isengard, then Saruman could quite simply take it. 

*Question 2: Why didn't Saruman take Narya from Gandalf?*



> _Unfinished Tales: The Istari_
> *"But Cirdan from their first meeting at the Grey Havens divined in him the greatest spirit and the wisest; and he welcomed him with reverence, and he gave to his keeping the Third Ring, Narya the Red.
> 'For,' said he, 'great labours and perils lie before you, and lesy your taks should prove too great and wearisome, take this Ring for your aid and comfort. It was entrusted to me only to keep secret, and here upon the West-shores it is idle; but I deem that in days ere long to come it should be in nobler hands than mine, that may wield it for the kindling of all hearts to courage.' And the Grey Messenger took the Ring, and kept it ever secret; yet the White Messenger (who was skilled to uncover all secrets) after a time became aware of this gift, and begrudged it, and it was the beginning of the hidden ill-will that he bore to the Grey, which afterwards became manifest.*



The source of his hatred for Gandalf was Narya, but he never claimed it for himself. It would help him considerably, if he wore it it may have even given him greater access to the One Ring, which astounds me that Gandalf never perceived that Bilbo had the One Ring even when he was wearing Narya. An argument might be that Gandalf wasn't wearing it at the time, but to say that is to say that Gandalf perceived the mind of Saruman but went to Isengard anyway. It also ties in with the third question.

*Question 3: What is the nature of Saruman's Ring?*



> _The Lord of the Rings: FOTR: The Council of Elrond_
> *"'For you have come, and that was all the purpose of my message. And here you will stay, Gandalf the Grey, and rest from journeys. For I am Saruman the Wise, Saruman Ring-maker, Saruman of Many Colors!'"*



I am not sure if there is anymore reference to his Ring, but Tolkien certainly makes it sound like he made one, and possessing Narya would do naught but increase his knowledge of Ring-Lore and how they were made. Let's see what we can come up with!


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## FoolOfATook (Dec 8, 2003)

> I am not sure if there is anymore reference to his Ring, but Tolkien certainly makes it sound like he made one



FOTR, Book II, Chapter 2, "The Council Of Elrond"


> 'But I rode to the foot of Orthanc, and came to the stair of Saruman; and there he met me and led me up to his chamber. He wore a ring on his finger.'





HoMe VII, _The Treason Of Isengard_, Chapter 7, "The Council Of Elrond (1)"


> but Saruman has long studied the works of the Enemy to defeat him, and the lore of rings was his special knowledge. The last of the 19 rings he had....



The footnote to this line says:



> I cannot make out the two concluding words, though the first might be 'gathered'. But whatever the words are, the meaning is clearly that Saruman has acquired the last of the Rings - and wore it on his finger, as appears subsequently in this text (cf. FR p.271).


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## Niniel (Dec 9, 2003)

As for your first question, why Saryman didn't convince Gandalf to bring the Ring to Orthanc, I think that if he had proposed that, Gandalf would have guessed what he wanted. Gandalf knew that the One Ring could only be destroyed in Mount Doom, and that if anyone tried to take it, even a Maia, he would be enslaved by it. And because Saruman was a Maia, his powers do to evil with it were enormous, so the risk was too great. So if Saruman had asked for the Ring to be taken to Isengard, Gandalf would have realised that Saruman wanted it for himself, and would have hidden it as far away as he could. If Saruman didn't want to sound too greedy, he knew he should not ask for the Ring but just try to get it.


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## Gil-Galad (Dec 9, 2003)

*Answer 1* :
I suppose that Saruman did not want ot risk.He had cunning voice but Gandalf was a Maia,like him.Such a question would have made Gandalf suspicious and then it wouldn't have been so easy for Saruman to deceive Gandalf and put him at the top of Ortanc.
Someting else can be addded too,at that time Saruman was totally corrupted and he believed he could find the One alone,using hîs spies and orcs.
And Finally if he had offered such thing to Gandalf ,Sauron would have understood sooner that Saruman was playing "doube game".

*Answer 2* :
Let's not forget that they both were Maiar.In eventual battle between them(I doubt Gandalf would have given Narya to Saruman without a fight) no one could be sure who would win.Saruman was clever enough not to risk.What is more,his aim was the One,not Narya.
*Answer 3* :
This question has been discussed for a long time here and I don't remeber there has been a clear anwser to it.
He probably managed to find one of the Dwarven rings?


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## Lantarion (Dec 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Gil-galad_
> I suppose that Saruman did not want ot risk.He had cunning voice but Gandalf was a Maia,like him.Such a question would have made Gandalf suspicious and then it wouldn't have been so easy for Saruman to deceive Gandalf and put him at the top of Ortanc.
> Someting else can be addded too,at that time Saruman was totally corrupted and he believed he could find the One alone,using hîs spies and orcs.
> And Finally if he had offered such thing to Gandalf ,Sauron would have understood sooner that Saruman was playing "doube game".


Why wouldn't Saruman want to risk it? Gandalf was, at the time, a subordinate to Saruman and he had great respect for him. Indeed before his imprisonment atop Orthanc Gandalf had no idea about Saruman's treachery or dark thoughts. 
And I'm not sure now, but did Saruman even know that the Ring had been found at the time of the Council of Elrond? If he did know, then I see no reason why he shouldn't have asked Gandalf to bring the Ring to him.
What do you mean by "if he had offered such a thing to Gandalf"? Saruman never offered anything to Gandalf as far as I know, and he certainly wouldn't have offered him the Ring if he had it in his possession!
The only obstacle to Saruman's possible 'asking' as I see it would have been Gandalf's adherence to his task; he knew that a proper COuncil and analyzation on the matter would be required before deciding what to do with the Ring. I don't think he would have given it to Saruman if he had asked, even though he looke dup to him as his boss in M-e.


> _ibid._
> Let's not forget that they both were Maiar.In eventual battle between them(I doubt Gandalf would have given Narya to Saruman without a fight) no one could be sure who would win.Saruman was clever enough not to risk.What is more,his aim was the One,not Narya.


I'm not so sure about that (the fight I mean). Saruman was not head of the Heren Istarion for nothing: he had, presumably, the highest 'Valinorean stature' and strongest inherent Ainurian powers of the five Istari sent to M-e. Why else would he have been made the leader? It was not because he was more intelligent or knowledgable in general, because Olórin was said to be the wisest of the Maiar. It was at least partially due to his Ring-lore, I would assume, but he must have also had the greatest power out of the five.
And therefore any battle between Gandalf the *Grey* and Saruman would have ended in the death of Olórin's corporeal form.

And on Ulairi's point: We know so little aobut the true natures of any of the Rings of Power that it is risky to say anything abot them that could be taken as factual. You assume that wwhile wearing Narya, Gandalf should have realized that Bilbo's ring was indeed the One; but I see nothing to back up the fact that Narya had such abilities (wel Gandalf should have realized it sooner anyway, but it had nothing to do with Narya IMO).
And Saruman would have been able to tap into its powers (Narya's), but they wouldn't have interested him for long because it endowed the wearer with powers which were far more suitable for an emissary or ambassador, which Gandalf served as.



> _ibid._
> This question has been discussed for a long time here and I don't remeber there has been a clear anwser to it.
> He probably managed to find one of the Dwarven rings?


As I recall, all of the Seven Dwarf-rings were accounted for, as either destroyed or in Sauron's keeping, so I don't think so.
Nonetheless, FoaT's quote mentions "19 rings".. The 'last' of the 19 Rings (3 + 7 + 9) would imply either the last of the 9, the 7 or the 3. The Three were in the keeping of wearers, the Nine were in the keeping of Sauron (the Nazgûl), but the Seven.. In this light it would seem that (in this earlier version) Saruman had one of the Dwarven Rings. It might also account for his unnaturally strong lust for the One, because the Dwarven Rings had the purpose of begetting wealth, unless I remember incorrectly.


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## Gil-Galad (Dec 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lantarion _
> *And I'm not sure now, but did Saruman even know that the Ring had been found at the time of the Council of Elrond? If he did know, then I see no reason why he shouldn't have asked Gandalf to bring the Ring to him.*



Saruman was suspiciosu about the Ring.I can't provide a quote from UT right now(I'll try to do it later),but I remember that Saruman didn't say the truth to the Wraith who asked him about the Shire.Also Gandalf was spending too much time in the Shire and that probably seemed suspicious to Saruman too.





> _Originally posted by Lantarion _
> What do you mean by "if he had offered such a thing to Gandalf"? Saruman never offered anything to Gandalf as far as I know, and he certainly wouldn't have offered him the Ring if he had it in his possession!
> The only obstacle to Saruman's possible 'asking' as I see it would have been Gandalf's adherence to his task; he knew that a proper COuncil and analyzation on the matter would be required before deciding what to do with the Ring. I don't think he would have given it to Saruman if he had asked, even though he looke dup to him as his boss in M-e.


I mean if Saruman had offered to Gandalf to bring the One to Ortanc.As you said Gandalf would have agreed with such thing and Saruman knew it.


> _Originally posted by Lantarion _
> I'm not so sure about that (the fight I mean). Saruman was not head of the Heren Istarion for nothing: he had, presumably, the highest 'Valinorean stature' and strongest inherent Ainurian powers of the five Istari sent to M-e. Why else would he have been made the leader? It was not because he was more intelligent or knowledgable in general, because Olórin was said to be the wisest of the Maiar. It was at least partially due to his Ring-lore, I would assume, but he must have also had the greatest power out of the five.
> And therefore any battle between Gandalf the *Grey* and Saruman would have ended in the death of Olórin's corporeal form.
> [/B]


Yes you are right.Olorin wouldn't have survived.But if there was such a battle it would have been pretty tough one even for the winner.I am not sure Saruman would have liked to pay such a big price only to destroy Olorin's human body.And as I said the aim of Saruman was the One ring,not Narya.


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## Eriol (Dec 9, 2003)

Some quick points from a guy who has no access to the books right now.

1) Gandalf had a strong distrust of Saruman before he went to Orthanc; not indeed a "personal distrust", but a reluctance to trust anyone. His main concern was treason, as is clear both in "The Shadow of the Past" and "The Council of Elrond". He debated with himself for a long time before confiding in Aragorn, which was more of a personal friend, a man whom he knew from birth. As far as I know he never told even Elrond or Galadriel before the Council of Elrond took place (I assume Elrond's messengers told the news to Galadriel, but even that is not clear to me). I think he would be very, very suspicious of any request by Saruman about the Ring.

2) I don't see any way in which Saruman could expose his knowledge about the Ring (if in fact he knew about it) without bringing suspicion over his intentions. If he found out about the Ring without Gandalf telling him, it means that he has spies watching the Shire; how could he break that to Gandalf without appearing as a traitor? Why would the Head of the Council (if honorable) be spying on the Shire, and on Gandalf's wanderings?

3) What Saruman would be offering to Gandalf (if I understood Ulairi's post correctly) would be shelter in Isengard before another course of action was taken. This would be the "bait". 

4) I don't know if the difference between Saruman and Gandalf was one of intrinsic power. Saruman was appointed before Gandalf (UT, The Istari). Perhaps the difference is simply one of seniority. Nevertheless, and though Saruman had the power to imprison Gandalf in Isengard, nowhere we see a difference in intrinsic battle power -- I'm not sure that Saruman could have "taken Narya" by force. 

Of course Saruman was able to take Gandalf's staff, and apparently this was an important object for Gandalf, so this point 4 is shaky. I don't despise shaky points .

5) Perhaps Ulairi's questions 2 and 3 are tied... perhaps Saruman's Ring was more useful to him than Narya. Perhaps S's Ring was even more powerful than Narya (I don't agree with the idea that Saruman's Ring was one of the Seven... Saruman claims to be "Ring-maker". I think Tolkien's ideas changed from the first draft, but I never read that part of HoME to be sure). We don't know the exact properties of Saruman's Ring, but perhaps Saruman simply didn't care about Narya since he had this wonderful Ring he had made himself . 

Wow, a lot of perhapses . I'll add another -- perhaps Saruman forgot or didn't care about Narya (which was used to "kindle the hearts" -- what would Saruman do with that?). And this would mean that his envy at Gandalf's ring would simply be a result of his awareness that Círdan thought Gandalf more worthy than Saruman to bear the Ring of Fire. 

I'll hear more of what you guys have to say about this, and check my books later for more ideas.


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## Gil-Galad (Dec 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Eriol _
> *.
> 
> Wow, a lot of perhapses . I'll add another -- perhaps Saruman forgot or didn't care about Narya (which was used to "kindle the hearts" -- what would Saruman do with that?). And this would mean that his envy at Gandalf's ring would simply be a result of his awareness that Círdan thought Gandalf more worthy than Saruman to bear the Ring of Fire.
> ...


Yes,in UT is said that Saruman couldn't accept the fact that Gandalf received Narya from Cirdan.Saruman's pride was hurted and from that moment he really disliked Olorin.

I need my UT right now.


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## Lantarion (Dec 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Eriol_
> Perhaps the difference is simply one of seniority.


I don't see how that is possible, since all Maiar came into existance at the same time..


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## Arvedui (Dec 9, 2003)

Another detail to remember:
_From the UT: The Istari:_


> But two only came forward: Curumo, who was chosen by Aulë, and Alatar, who was sent by Oromë. Then Manwë asked, where was Olórin? And Olórin, who was clad in grey, and having just entered from a journey had seated himself at the edge of the council, asked what Manwë would have of him. Manwë replied that he wished Olórin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth (and it is remarked in parantheses that "Olórin was a lover of the Eldar that remained," apparently to explain Manwë's choice). But Olórin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwë said that that was all the more reason why he should go, and that he commanded Olórin (illegible words follow that seem to contain word "third"). But Varda looked up and said "Not as the third;" and Curumo remembered it.


 Was this what you looked for, Gil-Galad? 

If I read the book right, this is a later writing, and maybe Tolkien meant something by this, so that Círdan giving Narya to Olórin was not to be the beginning of the ill-will, but rather a second thorn in Curumo's side.
And it can't have helped either, that Manwë hand-picked Olórin to go, even commanded him when he wasn't very eager. 
Saruman/Curumo is obviously a very proud character, and I believe that such things would not make him happy...


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## Gil-Galad (Dec 9, 2003)

I meant that quote as well as this one:


> But Cirdan from their first meeting at th Grey Havens divined in him the *greatest spirit and the wisest*;and he welcomed him with reverence,and he gave to his keeping The Third Ring,Narya the Red.
> "For"he said ,"great labours and perils lie before you,and lest your task prove too great and wearisome,take this Ring for your aid and comfort.It was entrusted to me only to keep secret and here upon the West shores in its idle;but I deem that in days ere long to come it should be in nobler hands than mine,that may wield it for the kindling of all hearts to courage."And the Grey Messenger took the Ring,and kept it ever secret;yet the White Messenger(who was skilled to uncover all secrets)after time became aware of this gift,and it begrudged it,and it was the beginning of the hidden ill-will that he bore to the Grey,which afterwards became manifest.



This quote proves that Saruman's pride was really hurted.He considered himself the only one who deserved to possess such a gift.
It also shows that Saruman probably would not have won in an eventual fight between him and Gandalf.

And something else which shows that Saruman probably had an idea where the Ring could be:


> From these things he (Sauron)concluded indeed that neither Saruman norany other of the Wise had yet possession of the Ring ,*but that Saruman at least knew where it might be hidden.*





> Saruman ahad long taken an interest in the Shire-because Gandalf did,and he was suspicious of him...





> But also he had begun to feel certain that in some way the Shire was connected with the Ring in Gandalf's mind.Why this strong guard upon it?He therefore began to collect detailed information about the Shire,its chief persons and families ,its roads and other matters.



I think these quotes prove that Saruman was suspicious about the Ring and where it was.


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## Úlairi (Dec 9, 2003)

Alright people, so far I have only got one answer and that is from FoolOfATook, thankyou very much btw.



> _Originally posted by Niniel_
> *As for your first question, why Saryman didn't convince Gandalf to bring the Ring to Orthanc, I think that if he had proposed that, Gandalf would have guessed what he wanted. Gandalf knew that the One Ring could only be destroyed in Mount Doom, and that if anyone tried to take it, even a Maia, he would be enslaved by it. And because Saruman was a Maia, his powers do to evil with it were enormous, so the risk was too great. So if Saruman had asked for the Ring to be taken to Isengard, Gandalf would have realised that Saruman wanted it for himself, and would have hidden it as far away as he could. If Saruman didn't want to sound too greedy, he knew he should not ask for the Ring but just try to get it.*



Perhaps, he may have. But the suggestion nevertheless is impossible to ignore. Orthanc is made of indestructible stone, and the armies of Sauron would find it difficult to take it. But I believe I made a valid point that right up to the time that Saruman revealed himself, Gandalf had no idea, and the voice of Saruman is also not to be ignored, he can be very convincing.



> _Originally posted by Gil-Galad_
> *Answer 1 :
> I suppose that Saruman did not want ot risk.He had cunning voice but Gandalf was a Maia,like him.Such a question would have made Gandalf suspicious and then it wouldn't have been so easy for Saruman to deceive Gandalf and put him at the top of Ortanc.
> Someting else can be addded too,at that time Saruman was totally corrupted and he believed he could find the One alone,using hîs spies and orcs.
> And Finally if he had offered such thing to Gandalf ,Sauron would have understood sooner that Saruman was playing "doube game".*



Sauron already knew Saruman's intentions, and of course he feared what may happen. He didn't send the Nine to Orthanc for information, Sauron is a tactician. He sent them there to send Saruman a message: "I am your master, and if you attempt anything I will kill you."



> _tLOTR: tROTK: The Black Gate Opens_
> *"But they shall help to rebuild Isengard which they have wantonly destroyed, and that shall be Sauron's, and there his lieutenant shall dwell: not Saruman, but one more worthy of trust."*



He knew alright, no problems there.

Agreed, Gandalf may have taken some convincing, but I personally believe he didn't know the mind of Saruman, as he was quite shocked when he discovered Saruman's true intentions. He still went to Orthanc, irrelevant of his suspicions, which can only suggest he didn't know.



> _Originally posted by Gil-Galad_
> *Answer 2 :
> Let's not forget that they both were Maiar.In eventual battle between them(I doubt Gandalf would have given Narya to Saruman without a fight) no one could be sure who would win.Saruman was clever enough not to risk.What is more,his aim was the One,not Narya.*



My point exactly!



> _The Lord of the Rings_
> *"One Ring to rule them all;
> One Ring to find them;..."*



Why not use one of the Three to find the One? The reason the Three were hidden in the first place was so that the One could not be used to find them. But when one wore the One, it would perceive the others, what's to say that the reverse cannot be done? Suffice to say, the Three should also perceive when they are being perceived. Narya would be a brilliant way to find the location of the One.



> _Originally posted by Lantarion_
> *And on Ulairi's point: We know so little aobut the true natures of any of the Rings of Power that it is risky to say anything abot them that could be taken as factual. You assume that wwhile wearing Narya, Gandalf should have realized that Bilbo's ring was indeed the One; but I see nothing to back up the fact that Narya had such abilities (wel Gandalf should have realized it sooner anyway, but it had nothing to do with Narya IMO).
> And Saruman would have been able to tap into its powers (Narya's), but they wouldn't have interested him for long because it endowed the wearer with powers which were far more suitable for an emissary or ambassador, which Gandalf served as.*



Now this is a valid point. What I have said is pure conjecture, however, here is another point. The Nine could perceive the One, of that I have no doubt, and apparently it was more Sauron's doing than the Ring's in ensnaring the Nazgul, their Rings control them from Barad-dur, and Sauron isn't even in possession of the One. So, I firmly believe there isn't a one-way but networked links
between the Rings of Power.



> _Originally posted by Eriol_
> *3) What Saruman would be offering to Gandalf (if I understood Ulairi's post correctly) would be shelter in Isengard before another course of action was taken. This would be the "bait".*



Bingo, hit the nail on the head there. 

Btw, thanks for the help in the last post GG.

Now that I have cleared things up, let us continue, this is getting interesting.


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## Starbrow (Dec 9, 2003)

if the Three could be used to find the One, then why didn't the Elven lords and lady do so after Sauron was defeated at the beginning of the Third Age. Elrond definitely wanted the Ring destroyed, and if he could have found it, I think he would have done it. While the One ring could find the others, it would have given the other rings too much power to find it. The bearer of the One would be vulnerable to whoever had a ring of power. I'm sure Sauron did not give anyone the power to find the One ring.


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## Úlairi (Dec 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Starbrow_
> *if the Three could be used to find the One, then why didn't the Elven lords and lady do so after Sauron was defeated at the beginning of the Third Age. Elrond definitely wanted the Ring destroyed, and if he could have found it, I think he would have done it. While the One ring could find the others, it would have given the other rings too much power to find it. The bearer of the One would be vulnerable to whoever had a ring of power. I'm sure Sauron did not give anyone the power to find the One ring.*



Perhaps not to find it, but they were at least aware of it. Another question would be why Saruman didn't use the Palantir to find them? Perhaps he did when they went over Caradhras, and he did send his Orcs; so perhaps he did use the Palantir. The intrinsic power of Narya, and the other Rings is that they are aware of the Ring. When they first put their Rings on, Tolkien even wrote that "they became aware of him". Hence and therefore there must be a way that Saruman could have used Narya to his advantage.


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## Eriol (Dec 10, 2003)

I have my book here now, but I'm too sleepy now to check it... I think that the Ringbearers were aware of Sauron when Sauron put the One Ring on his finger, and not the contrary. I'm 99% sure of that -- as sure as I can be without checking the book directly. 

In other words, it is not Narya (or another Ring) that detects the One, it is the One that detects Narya. Someone wearing the One can find Narya, even if no one is using Narya; someone wearing Narya can't find the One unless the One is being used for dominion over the other rings. Or so I think. 

The keepers of the Elven Rings could not therefore detect the One unless someone was wearing it _and_ claiming dominion over all Rings -- i.e., assuming the position of Lord of the Rings. For instance, both Elrond and Galadriel (and Gandalf) probably were aware of Frodo's claim in Sammath Naur. But they never were aware of Gollum or Bilbo wearing the One in the many long years... remember, Bilbo was _a guest_ at Elrond's house (when returning from Erebor) WITH the One Ring and Elrond never had any inkling of the presence of the One within his (HIS!) house. 

Come to think of it, this is a very neat explanation for Gandalf's comment at the Last Battle, "Men of the West, wait, this is the hour" (or something like that).


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## Gildor (Dec 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *Question 1: Why didn't Saruman convince Gandalf to bring the Ring to Orthanc where it would be safe until a better course of action could be taken?*



Gandalf would have taken a lot of convincing, perhaps more than even Saruman could manage. Gandalf was fully aware of the Ring's lure, so much that he didn't even trust himself to take it and keep it safe. He would never take it willingly to Orthanc unless he trusted Saruman completely, and perhaps not even then. If Saruman suggested such a thing it would raise suspicion, and with Gandalf being the most uncorrupted of the Istari it would have been extremely difficult to coerce him into doing something that was against his better judgement. 



> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *Question 2: Why didn't Saruman take Narya from Gandalf?*



The Three were being worn for thousands of years while the One was lost, and gave no insight as to where it might be found. None of the rings gave any knowledge that Gollum had found the One either. The only time that any awareness of the One Ring was granted to bearers of the lesser rings was when it was in the possession of Sauron, which suggests that the One can only be sensed when it used by someone powerful enough to control the others. Taking Narya from Gandalf would have aided Saruman very little, for the One would still be hidden from him. He would also have revealed himself as a traitor to Elrond and Galadriel had he done so.



> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *Question 3: What is the nature of Saruman's Ring?*



This is a difficult question, as very little regarding it is said. It seems safe to say that its nature reflected Saruman himself, perhaps aiding him in his ability to dominate or incite greed and treachery in others. It was probably of much lesser power than the other Rings and more likely just an 'essay' in the craft.


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## Gil-Galad (Dec 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Eriol _
> *
> 
> The keepers of the Elven Rings could not therefore detect the One unless someone was wearing it and claiming dominion over all Rings -- i.e., assuming the position of Lord of the Rings. For instance, both Elrond and Galadriel (and Gandalf) probably were aware of Frodo's claim in Sammath Naur. But they never were aware of Gollum or Bilbo wearing the One in the many long years... remember, Bilbo was a guest at Elrond's house (when returning from Erebor) WITH the One Ring and Elrond never had any inkling of the presence of the One within his (HIS!) house.
> ...


Exactly Eri!!!!
The Bearers of the Elven Rings could feel the One only if its bearer claimed he possessed it.Thus indirectly he claimed dominion over all Rings:



> _The Lord of the Rings_
> "One Ring to rule them all;
> One Ring to find them;..."



posted by Eriol:


> ... it is not Narya (or another Ring) that detects the One, it is the One that detects Narya. Someone wearing the One can find Narya, even if no one is using Narya; someone wearing Narya can't find the One unless the One is being used for dominion over the other rings. Or so I think.


That is right!!!The one could detect the Elven rings.It is written somewhere in Ut.I will try to paraphrase.It is written that the Bearers of the Elven Rings tried to avoid using them for some time because of Sauron.
Later I will try to provide the quote,I have a soccer match now and I have to go.


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## Ithrynluin (Dec 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *The intrinsic power of Narya, and the other Rings is that they are aware of the Ring. *



The _bearers_ are aware of someone putting on the One and claiming dominion over the other bearers, like Eriol says.



> _Originally posted by Eriol _
> In other words, it is not Narya (or another Ring) that detects the One, it is the One that detects Narya. Someone wearing the One can find Narya, even if no one is using Narya; someone wearing Narya can't find the One unless the One is being used for dominion over the other rings. Or so I think. [/B]



I agree with the latter part but not the former. Sauron wearing the One, could not just _locate_ the other rings of power. When he forged the One and set out to conquer all Middle Earth, he went for Lindon first because that's 



> _Unfinished Tales: The History of Galadriel and Celeborn_
> But now Sauron attempted to gain the mastery of Eriador: Lórinand could wait. But as he ravaged the lands, slaying or drawing off all the small groups of Men and hunting the remaining Elves, many fled to swell Elrond's host to the northward. *Now Sauron's immediate purpose was to take Lindon, [color=sky blue]where he believed that he had most chance of seizing one, or more, of the Three Rings*[/color]; and he called in therefore his scattered forces and marched west towards the land of Gil-galad, ravaging as he went. But his force was weakened by the necessity of leaving a strong detachment to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear.



Now if he had known of the Three Rings' whereabouts for certain, if the One had indeed granted him this knowledge instantly, why would there be need for speculation on Sauron's part? Of course his guess was pretty correct, but then again it wasn't all that difficult to assume that at least one of the Three would be stashed away with the High King of the Noldor, eh?

Sauron could only detect the wearers of the Three, and control them, when he was wearing the One, and they were wearing their respectful rings. I don't think ANYONE, not even Sauron, could just sniff out the location of the Three like some sort of metal (ring?) detector.

I also think that whoever was wearing the One and desired dominion, had to be greater than the bearers of the Three to gain any advantages over them. The effect that everyone who wore the One experienced was to gain a 'sharper vision' of anyone who bore a Ring of Power, which we see happening to Frodo in Lórien.

Regarding Saruman's ring, I don't think it was as powerful as the Rings of Power, yet powerful enough to give Saruman an enhanced power of command and lordship and enable him to rally the throngs of Orcs and Men that he did. That quote by FoolOfATook is an early concept I believe, and it was later established that the Dwarven rings were either lost or in Sauron's possession.


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## Gil-Galad (Dec 10, 2003)

> _From Unfinished Tales:The History of Celeborn and Galadriel:
> Then Celebrimbor was put to tornment,and Sauron learned from him where the Seven were bestowed.This Celebrimbor revealed ,because neither the Seven nor the Nine did he valued as he valued the Three;the Seven and the Nine were made with Sauron's aid,whereas the Three were made by Celebrimbor alone,with different power and purpose.
> _



Maybe a did not use the right word-"detect"Sauron could not find the exact location of the Three Rings probably because he was not inolved in their forging.But I believe he could feel when somebody used them.That can explain one of the reasons why in the beginning Galadriel wanted the Rings to be hidden and not to be used.:



> _From Unfinished Tales:The History of Celeborn and Galadriel:
> Galadriel counselled him(Celebrimbor)that the Three Ring of the Elves should be hidden,never used,and dispersed.........
> _


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## Arvedui (Dec 11, 2003)

Well, after all Sauron made the One Ring to rule the others, so I don't think that your thesis is very wrong, if I may put it that way...


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## Rangerdave (Dec 11, 2003)

This is a bit off the current flow of the thread, but I feel tht it is important to mention.

There seems to be the idea floating around that Saruman was the leader of the Istari and the White Council in the sense that he commands the others in the group. This is not in my opinion the case. Saruman was the head of the council only in the sense that someone had to be. There is no direct textual (film adaptations aside) evidence that Saruman is more powerful or any wiser than Gandalf. Rather Saruman is simply more specialized in his knowlidge of works of craft. This specialized knowlidge would make him a good canidate for first of equals status in the council, but not a position of command. Saruman is basically the President Pro Temp. Or in other words his vote breaks any possible ties. Without a moderating voice the council would be a comitee. A nice position to have surely, but not exactly what one would call actual leadership.



> Of this Order the number is unknown; but of those that came to the North of Middle-earth, where there was most hope (because of the remnant of the Dunedain and of the Eldar that abode there), the chiefs was five. The first to come was one of noble mien and bearing, with raven hair, and a fair voice, and he was clad in white; great skill he had in works of hand, and he was regarded by well-nigh all, even by the Eldar, as the head of the Order...
> 
> It may be seen that they were free each to do what they could in this mission; that they were not commanded or supposed to act together as a small central body of power and wisdom; and that each had different powers and inclinations and were chosen by the Valar with this in mind.
> Unfinished Tales Part IV, section 2



This basicly means that each of the members of the Order were independant operatives, free to follow the wisdom of the council as they saw fit. In fact, this is more that likely the reason that Saruman became the leader of the council to begin with. Galadriel, and most likely Elrond as well, wished for Gandalf to assume the role of leader, but he refused stateing that he would be bound by no allegience or duty save to those who sent him.

Speaking of those who sent them, the conflict between Gandalf and Saruman started even before they sailed east from Valinor.


> Then Manwë asked, where was Olórin? And Olórin, who was clad in grey, and having just entered from a journey had seated himself at the edge of the council, asked what Manwë would have of him. Manwë replied that he wished Olórin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth. But Olórin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwë said that that was all the more reason why he should go, and that he commanded Olórin (illegible words follow that seems to contain word "third"). But at that Varda looked up and said: "Not as the third;" and Curumo remembered it.






Thanks for your time
I now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion already in progress


RD


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## Arvedui (Dec 11, 2003)

I can't altogether agree with you, RD.


> '[...] I might perhaps have consulted Saruman the White, but something always held be back.'
> 'Who is he?' asked Frodo. 'I have never heard of him before.'
> 'Maybe not,' answered Gandalf. 'Hobbits are, or were, no concern of his. Yet he is great among the Wise. *He is the chief of my order and the head of the council.* [...]


 _From the Lord of the Rings; The Shadow of the Past._ 
Gandalf clearly sees him as the headman of the Order of the Istari.


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## Gil-Galad (Dec 11, 2003)

Let me disagree with you Arvedui (OMG what am I doing,to disagree with you=madness  )

That was Gandalf's personal opinion.He was modest and humble and he did not consider himself the leader and the most powerful of the Istari.It was easier for him to consider Curunir the chief of his order.



> And Olorin ,who was clad in grey,and having just entered from a journey had seated himself *at the edge of the council *asked what Manwe would have of him.





> *But Olorin declared that he was too weak for such a task,an that he feared Sauron.*



Can't we infer from these quotes that he was humble and modest?He sat at the edge( maybe lack of self esteem or a desire not to draw attenton to him).According to his opinion he was not strong enough.Modesty was one of the main features he had,I suppose.That can explain his words concerning Saruman.He accepted him as a leader and did not doubt even for a minute his leadership.
But that he was weak and lesser than Saruman was only his opinion(due to his modesty),for the Valar did not think so :



> ...at that time Varda looked up and said :"Not as a third;"


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## Úlairi (Dec 11, 2003)

Alright, alright, I am completely aware of all that has been said, and now were just going around in circles, we'll get to Saruman's Ring *after* we have discussed Narya. OK?

Alright, I acknowledge what I am saying is absurd, I know and always have known that it is only the One that can find the Rngs of Power, not vice versa, I am merely *speculating* on the fact that Saruman could have turned Narya into something that he could use.



> _Letters of JRRT: Letter #131 to Milton Waldman_
> *"The chief power (of all the Rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay (i.e. 'change' viewed as a regrettable thing), the preservation of what is desired or loved - this is more or less an Elvish motive. But they also enhanced the natural powers of a possessor - thus approaching 'magic', a motive easily corruptable into evil, a lust for domination. And finally they had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron ('the Necromancer': so he is called as he casts a fleeting shadow and presage on the pages of The Hobbit): such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible."*



Now, it's interesting that neither Gandalf nor Elrond detected the One whilst it was in the keeping of Bilbo and Frodo. An argument might be that Tolkien had not considered the Ring in _The Hobbit_, which we all know. However, Gandalf certainly gets a sense of it in _The Lord of the Rings_ after the act of Bilbo, not wanting to 'let it go'. To say that this was a result of Narya is pure folly, it seems it was Gandalf's wisdom that helped him discover the truth. I also understand that if the One isn't claimed by the bearer, than the Three and all the others are fundamentally 'safe'. But what I can't let go is the fact that these Rings must have had some sort of sense, how could they be completely blind? Unfortunately I can't find too much textual evidence to support this. However, another reason that Saruman may have wanted Narya was because (as it says above), it may have 'enhanced his natural powers'.


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## Arvedui (Dec 12, 2003)

Gil-Galad:
_From The Silmarillion:_


> Wisest of the Maiar was Olórin.


 He might have been humble, yes, but he was the wisest of all Maiar, so I guess that he could recognize a leader when one was established. And if he wanted Curunír to be the leader, than he obviously was.
And if I remember right, Galadriel also confirmes somewhere that Curunír was the leader of the White Council, even though she had wanted Olórin to take that position.

Ulairi:
Could Saruman have turned Narya into something that he could use?
Maybe. He was a Maia of Aulë, if my memory haven't failed, so he probably knew a thing or two about making things. I don't know if he could outdo the works of Celebrimbor, but I think that it is possible that he could use a Ring such as Narya to suit his own needs.

I think that we have something to thank Círdan for, then...


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## Gil-Galad (Dec 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Arvedui _
> *Gil-Galad:
> He might have been humble, yes, but he was the wisest of all Maiar, so I guess that he could recognize a leader when one was established. And if he wanted Curunír to be the leader, than he obviously was.
> And if I remember right, Galadriel also confirmes somewhere that Curunír was the leader of the White Council, even though she had wanted Olórin to take that position.
> ...


Indeed.He was wise enough to recognize Curunir's leadership.He was wise enough not to be leaded by proud and desire for leadership like Saruman,but that does not mean he was not as powerful as him.
Galadriel confirmed something which was known by everybody.Saruman was recognized by everyone,though some(Galadriel,Cirdan) of them considered Gandalf to be the better choice.


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## Úlairi (Dec 12, 2003)

Good, so question one and two are proven and could possibly be flaws in Tolkien's work.

Saruman, as mentioned above is of 'higher Valinorean stature', Gandalf may have been the wisest, but don't let us forget who won the fight between the two. Also, I find it interesting that he is referred to as 'Saruman the Wise', when we all know that Olorin was quite obviously the wiser of the two. Perhaps it was a name given to Saruman by Gandalf himself, to show Gandalf's true humility. Who knows?


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## Arvedui (Dec 14, 2003)

If this was Gandalf's tactics, then it reminds me of one of 'Murphy's Laws of Combat:' 


> Always share a foxhole with someone braver than you. It gives the enemy someone else to shoot at.


Maybe it wasn't humility, maybe he was smart?


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## Barliman Butterbur (Dec 14, 2003)

I daresay that the reason things didn't go otherwise from what we read in the book is because Tolkien was satisfied with the way he wrote it, inconsistencies and all, and/or he didn't consider any more possibilities:

"...I should like to say something here with reference to the many opinions or _guesses_ that I have received... As a guide I had only my own feelings for what is appealing or moving, and for many, the guide was inevitably at fault. ...even from the points of view of many who have enjoyed my story there is much that fails to please. ...I find from the letters that I have received that passages or chapters that are to some a blemish are all by others specially approved. _The most critical reader of all, myself, now finds many defects, major and minor_, but being fortunately under no obligation either to review the book or to write it again, _he will pass over these in silence_. except one that has been noted by others: the book is too short." [italics mine]

—Tolkien, _Forward to the Second Edition_

So while asking questions about why this was done or wasn't, etc. is fun, it's only second guessing. It appears that Tolkien was aware of at least some of the things that give rise to questions and Monday morning quarterbacking, and to all of it, merely said, as it were, *"Swaha!"* (Sanskrit for "Just let it all go.")

—Lotho


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## Úlairi (Dec 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Arvedui _
> *If this was Gandalf's tactics, then it reminds me of one of 'Murphy's Laws of Combat:'
> 
> Maybe it wasn't humility, maybe he was smart? *



Very, very true. Using Saruman as Sauron's...scapegoat. Sauron would ignore Gandalf and go after Saruman. Saruman had control of a fortress, making him a target. Anything that can refute the power of Sauron, and is even a threat to it must be destroyed before he goes after Gandalf. I like it Arvedui! 

Lotho_Pimple, you're absolutely right. The problems with Tolkien's novels, is whenever he put pen to paper he would first have to research the hell out of his own novels, and by the time he has all the information he needed, he wouldn't feel like writing anymore!  This is all because his world was so complex, so much going on at once.


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## Rangerdave (Dec 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *but don't let us forget who won the fight between the two...*


What fight. I never heard of any fight. For all we know, Saruman simply asked Gandalf to check out his new room and then quickly locked the door.



> *Perhaps it was a name given to Saruman by Gandalf himself, to show Gandalf's true humility. Who knows? *


I would think that it was a name given to Saruman by Saruman is a better guess.


RD


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## Úlairi (Dec 15, 2003)

Yeah, I know what you mean by the fight, although I believe it is simply an inferrable thing. However, one thing that does bother me is that Gandalf *does* suspect Saruman before he even goes to Orthanc, this is mentioned in *The Shadow of the Past* quite frequently and I'm surprised no one brought it up! It sounds as though Gandalf was on his guard, so, a duel between the two sounds even more likely.


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## The PETER (Dec 16, 2003)

If Saruman knew of Narya, why didn't he tell Sauron?


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## Celebthôl (Dec 16, 2003)

Because Saruman was working for himself, he was only pretending to work for Sauron...


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## Úlairi (Dec 16, 2003)

My question certainly would be why the heck* did Gandalf go to Orthanc when he suspected Saruman? He says he doesn't trust his lore, and neither does he trust him. However, he goes anyway. Another interesting experiment might be that Gandalf at Imladris decides to tell Frodo to put on the One Ring, and claim it for himself. That way, Gandalf, having Narya, could certainly attempt to 'break' the power of the One over his, or at least learn something valuable. Sauron already knew that the One was being held by Frodo at Rivendell, he would have received that news from the Nazgul. Of course a problem might be the risk of Frodo wielding the One, it would perhaps corrupt him instantly.





Language people
RD


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## Arvedui (Dec 17, 2003)

I think that you put way to much into Narya, Ulairi.


> The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay (i.e. 'change' viewed as a regrettable thing), the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance - this is more or less an Elvish motive. But also they enhanced the natural powers of a possessor - thus approaching 'magic', a motive easily corruptible into evil, a lust for domination. And finally they had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron ('The Necromancer': so he is called as he casts a fleeting shadow and presage on the pages of 'The Hobbit'): such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible.
> The Elves of Eregion made Three supremely beautiful and powerful rings, almost solely of their own imagination, and directed to the preservation of beauty: they did not confer invisibility.


 _Letters, # 131_ 

Only the Ruling Ring had the power to contain


> the power of all the others, and controlled them, so that its wearer could see the thoughts of all those that used the lesser rings, could govern all that they did, and in the end could utterly enslave them.


_Letters, # 131_ 

It doesn't work the other way around.


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## Úlairi (Dec 17, 2003)

I know, I am an extremely theoretical person. I apologize.


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