# Independent bad guys who wern't in league with Sauron...



## SpencerC18 (Apr 30, 2003)

Are there any to speak of, all I can think of is the Goblin King in the hobbit and watcher in the water, and maybe the balrog, but I bet he was in league with him.


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## FoolOfATook (Apr 30, 2003)

The spiders in _The Hobbit_ come to mind, so does Old Man Willow and the Barrowwrights.


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## Celebthôl (Apr 30, 2003)

the Balrog was, the Goblins were and the Barrow Whights were all in league with Sauron...


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## Lantarion (Apr 30, 2003)

Not the Barrow-wights, I don't think. They may have served the Witch-king, but never Sauron.
Hmm, that's funny: I can't think of many others! But that seems a bit unrealistic: Sauron, being the ultimate evil being in M-e during the TA, is also the _only_ one?! Hmm..


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## Eriol (Apr 30, 2003)

During the T.A. -- let me see...

Various Dragons (Scatha, Smaug -- sure they _could have been used_ by Sauron, but they were not). Cold-Drakes, too. 

Shelob -- I don't think you can say she was "in league" with Sauron; at least not like the Orcs and the Balrog.

Spiders, Old-Man Willow, Huorns, ordinary Trolls (Tom, Bert and William for instance). The Watcher in the Water

Ted Sandyman and Lotho Sackville-Baggins .

The Dead guys from the Paths of the Dead (remember they went around scaring people before Aragorn showed up, and they did not give a hearty welcome to Brego).

The giants mentioned at the hobbit (though perhaps they were just isolationists  ).

Wargs and Goblins at the Hobbit (Sauron probably did not have much of a status back then among Goblins... I don't think he would have allowed such a disastrous enterprise as the Battle of Five Armies).

I think that's it -- as Lantarion (happy birthday!) pointed out, the Barrow-wights are open to question.


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## Celebthôl (Apr 30, 2003)

well i guess they were, but they served the witch-king and he was under the will of Sauron...oh well...


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lantarion _
> *Not the Barrow-wights, I don't think. They may have served the Witch-king, but never Sauron.
> *



Since the Witch-King was Sauron's _slave_, I cannot think of one good reason why the Barrow-wights should be categorized as "independent" bad guys, like Celebthôl said.



> _Originally posted by Eriol _
> *Shelob -- I don't think you can say she was "in league" with Sauron; at least not like the Orcs and the Balrog.
> *



Why say that Shelob was not in league with Sauron, but the Balrog was? There is no indication of the Balrog being anyone's servant but his own. Neither Shelob nor the Balrog ventured out on a mission for Sauron, they both "functioned" independently - though indirectly they did serve Sauron's cause or the cause of evil as a whole (both hindering the Fellowship and causing great harm).

Of course, there is also the infamous Watcher in the Water.


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## Eriol (Apr 30, 2003)

Well, my only piece of evidence for a link between the Balrog and Sauron is the presence of "Great Uruks from Mordor" in the group that attacked the company. Come to think of it, that's pretty strong evidence... these guys did not go around on vacation .


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## Gandalf White (Apr 30, 2003)

Unless I am gravely mistaken, Saruman started out as a 'baddie' not working for Sauron. 

By "in league with" I take it you mean one taking orders from the other. All the bad guys worked toward a common cause, even if they were separate from one another. i.e. the Watcher grabbing the Ringbearer first....


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## Feanorian (May 1, 2003)

I think all of the evil was in some way or another related to Sauron, and ultimately Morgoth.


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## SpencerC18 (May 1, 2003)

who was the main bad guy after sauorn was destroyed?


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## William Amos (May 1, 2003)

Well if you consider part of the talk in "Fellowship of the Ring" the mountain of Charadhdras (sp?) the Redhorn gate is a candidate.

The talk of "fell voices on the air" and other references suggest that the Mountain itself was an enemy seems to suggest this possibility.

Just read some of the talk of gandalf and Gimili about the mountain.


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## Celebthôl (May 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by SpencerC18 _
> *who was the main bad guy after sauorn was destroyed? *



there was no imediate candidate for this, thats why there was so much peace afterwards...


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## Ithrynluin (May 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by SpencerC18 _
> *who was the main bad guy after sauorn was destroyed? *



Tolkien started working on a sequel to the LoTR, but abandoned it - it is called 'The New Shadow' and it can be found in HoME XII. IIRC, the main 'force of evil' was supposed to be a black Númenorean. Sauron was the last supernatural incarnation of evil, and from now on, evil would be present in the hearts of men.


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## Feanorian (May 2, 2003)

He would be the last supernatural until Morgoth returned of course.


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## Confusticated (May 2, 2003)

> He would be the last supernatural until Morgoth returned of course.


I don't see any reason that he should be 'supernatural', I guess that he was just the leader of a cult. Some would say evil, though I would not.



> who was the main bad guy after sauorn was destroyed?


No main bad guy really, just whatever evil man came into the most power, I would say.



> ...was supposed to be a black Númenorean.



I did not know these were certainly the same Herumurs. 

Where does it say or give great indication that they are the same? 



> I think all of the evil was in some way or another related to Sauron, and ultimately Morgoth.


Related to Morgoth in that he was the cause of all that is evil, and Sauron did have a knack for drawing evil to him, some unseen force at work, I suppose. There must have been evil men or creatures at the end of the TA that were not workng for Sauron. Though any evil act committed, went to the cause of Morgoth, but not necessarily Sauron.


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## Thror (May 2, 2003)

it seems to me that anybody who wasn't working for the side of good was, in effect, "in league" with Sauron, no matter if they took orders directly from him or no.


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## Celebthôl (May 2, 2003)

well wot about hobbits? they were not really good or bad (and the men of Bree for that matter), they just stayed out of things...


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## Eriol (May 2, 2003)

I would add Tom Bombadil, the men of Forochel, the Woodmen, and the Beornings, to Celebthôl's question...


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## Celebthôl (May 2, 2003)

exactly, there were many predominantly good or bad peoples in ME but they kind of did nothing for either cause...


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## Thror (May 6, 2003)

hmm... that is a good question, and a hard one. But i still think that if they didn't fight for good, they could only have been helping the cause of Sauron.

Of course, just because they didn't help the side of good, doesn't mean that they themselves were necessarily evil. They more or less helped Sauron by accident (and in the case of Hobbits they were more ignorant of the events of the 'outside world' than anything else, and when sufficiently provoked, would have fought against Sauron)


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## William Amos (May 6, 2003)

Ah shoot I just remembered !!

The "Blue" Wizards. In Unfinished tales Tolkein relates how Saruman sent them to the east and south where they became "leaders of cults amoung men and pass from the tales of this story".


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## Gandalf28 (May 10, 2003)

In PJ/new Line's movie no one makes it clear that Saruman is in a league of his own. Once knowlege of the ring is passed to him he wants it for himself. There inlies the birth of Uruk-hai! Ironic how it all twists together in the end.


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## BlackCaptain (May 10, 2003)

Men were originaly the new bad guys after Sauron, because of their bad hearts er something... But that idea was abandoned by Tolkien after a bit...


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