# What happened with the Ring of the King of the Nazgûl



## Samweis (Jan 26, 2003)

After the ONE RING is dissapeared in the fires of the Orodruin, the eight rings of the Nazgûl were destroyed. But what happened with the ninth ring of the Witch-King? Does anybody know?


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## Rangerdave (Jan 26, 2003)

The Nazgul did not wear the rings that they were bound to. Sauron held the nine rings under his control and used that to help bind the wraiths to his will.

I assume that the nine were destroyed in the fall of Barad Dur. 

RD

PS, The Webmaster has asked that all signatures be three lines or less. If you would be so kind as to shorten your signature I would greatly appreciate it.


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## Samweis (Jan 26, 2003)

I assume this, too, but in the book it is not mentioned.

Furthermore it is interesting that Tolkien didn´t mentioned the ring, when Eowyn kills the Witch-King. It is said in the book that the crown rolls away and that Eowyn falls on the emty coat resp. coat of mail.

I think this is astonishing - what happened to the ring. Why doesn´t look f.e. Gandalf or anybody for the ring?


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## Aulë (Jan 26, 2003)

did you even read RD's post????


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## Ithrynluin (Jan 26, 2003)

The Witch-King doesn't have his ring (probably), they are all with Sauron, as has been said. And if the Witch-King and the rest of the Nazgul DID wear their rings, I think it would have been a dangerous business for anyone to look for the Ring on the Field of Pellenor and toy with it.
But I don't see why the Nine Rings should have been destroyed at the destruction of the One? The Three weren't destroyed, they just lost power. But what became of them? Was the downfall of Barad-dur so intense that the Nine and the remaineder of the Seven were consumed by fire? Or did they just lie there in the ruins, trophies of lost power?


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## Samweis (Jan 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Pippin_Took _
> *did you even read RD's post???? *



Yes of course I have read RD´s post, but maybe there is a misunderstanding from my side.

I understand his post like this: that Sauron has these nine rings under his control, but the Nazgûl wear them. So the Witch-King has his ring on his finger, when Eowyn kills him.



> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *The Witch-King doesn't have his ring (probably), they are all with Sauron, as has been said. And if the Witch-King and the rest of the Nazgul DID wear their rings, I think it would have been a dangerous business for anyone to look for the Ring on the Field of Pellenor and toy with it.
> But I don't see why the Nine Rings should have been destroyed at the destruction of the One? The Three weren't destroyed, they just lost power. But what became of them? Was the downfall of Barad-dur so intense that the Nine and the remaineder of the Seven were consumed by fire? Or did they just lie there in the ruins, trophies of lost power? *



How are the nine Nazgûls under the control of Sauron, when their rings are the whole time in Barad-Dur?


O.K. maybe there are so in obedience that a "direct" control is not neccessary anymore.


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## ltas (Jan 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Samweis _
> *How are the nine Nazgûls under the control of Sauron, when their rings are the whole time in Barad-Dur?
> *


That's a good point actually. 

I too have imagined that the Nazgul have to wear their rings, after all, the rings are both the source of their power and their communication link with Sauron.


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## Samweis (Jan 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *I think it would have been a dangerous business for anyone to look for the Ring on the Field of Pellenor and toy with it.
> *



Of course it would be dangerous, but Gandalf the White is a very experienced magician! It would be very interesting to know what happened to this ring.


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## Ithrynluin (Jan 26, 2003)

The Rings were given to the Nine a long, long time ago. They quickly fell under the power of the One and were Sauron's slaves. He took their rings from them (or rather they gave them to him at his command) so that he could have total and complete control of their wills. For example: If one of the Ringwraiths, even the Witch-king himself, were to find the One Ring, they would have brought it to Sauron at once; they wouldn't have considered taking it for themselves, because their wills were enthralled.


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## Samweis (Jan 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ltas _
> *That's a good point actually.
> 
> I too have imagined that the Nazgul have to wear their rings, after all, the rings are both the source of their power and their communication link with Sauron. *



Thanks, Itas. 



> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *The Rings were given to the Nine a long, long time ago. They quickly fell under the power of the One and were Sauron's slaves. He took their rings from them (or rather they gave them to him at his command) so that he could have total and complete control of their wills. For example: If one of the Ringwraiths, even the Witch-king himself, were to find the One Ring, they would have brought it to Sauron at once; they wouldn't have considered taking it for themselves, because their wills were enthralled. *




Yes, that´s a possibility, but this is not mentioned in the book. On the other hand it is possible, that the Nazgûl wear the whole time their rings to be under control of Sauron.

Both interpretations are possible.


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## BlackCaptain (Jan 26, 2003)

I would also assume, that once the 9 rings were destroyed, that they would lose all of thier power, like the Elven rings. They'd just be rings, and if anybody found them in the stones and rocks that barad-dur is now, good for them. They could go pawn em'.


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## Samweis (Jan 26, 2003)

> They could go pawn em'.



I would prefer to see them destroyed, because maybe there will be another "Sauron", who thinks about to create a new ONE RING.


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## Ithrynluin (Jan 26, 2003)

There would be no new Dark Lord as great as Sauron. The Noldor left Middle Earth, so who could possibly forge something great like that? No one.
Tolkien says that in the 4th Age and after...evil would be in the hearts of Men.

Samweis, reduce your signature to 3 lines or less, or you'll have the wrath of the Mods upon you soon!


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## Samweis (Jan 26, 2003)

I was just looking for a possible sequel.

f.e. MORDOR STRIKES BACK  


... I was just a joke!


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## Gothmog (Jan 26, 2003)

As for another One Ring being forged. Even the Noldor could not have made such a powerful ring. Only a Maia or Vala had the power to put into it.

Mod's comment.
Samweis, Thanks


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## Samweis (Jan 26, 2003)

Again to the topic.

When the Nazgûl wear the rings, then is the ring on the finger of the Witch-King at the final fight between him and Eowyn.

Then there are two possibilities:

1. the ring dissapears like the body of the Witch-King. Then I would like to know, whereto the ring is gone?

2. the ring fells on the Fields of Pelennor. Then I would like to know, if it is found?

When the Nazgûls don´t wear the rings, then isn´t the ring on the finger of the Witch-King at the final fight between him and Eowyn.

Then I would like to know, how does Sauron control the Nazgûl?

Please remember when Frodo put the ring on his finger the Nazgul become aware of it, so there must be a connection between the ONE RING and the other rings.


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## Anamatar IV (Jan 26, 2003)

Sauron has the Nazgul's ring. He controls them through their rings. They were corrupted by the rings. Think of it like Gollum:

Gollum would do just about anything for the One Ring and for the Master of the One Ring (as we see in TTT). But the Nazgul had never worn the one ring but rather their 9 rings. So they do anything for the master of their nine rings.


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## Samweis (Jan 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Anamatar IV _
> *Sauron has the Nazgul's ring. He controls them through their rings. They were corrupted by the rings. Think of it like Gollum:
> 
> Gollum would do just about anything for the One Ring and for the Master of the One Ring (as we see in TTT). But the Nazgul had never worn the one ring but rather their 9 rings. So they do anything for the master of their nine rings. *



I agree Gollum would do just about anything for the One Ring but I don´t think that he do just anything for the present master.

I think rather, that he is only bound to the master with his word on the ring but not on the person. When he feels betrayed by the master, he fells no bound anymore, although Frodo is still the ringbearer. This contradicts your theory, otherwise he wouldn´t guide Frodo into Shelobs cave.


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## Glomund (Jan 26, 2003)

The Nazgul did not wear their rings. In the several different versions of the hunt for the ring in UT, it says that Sauron decided to send the Nazgul to hunt for the Shire and the ring because they were his greatest servants, utterly enslaved to the nine rings "which he now himself held". The reason they did not have to wear them to stay loyal was the power Sauron put into the one ring, enabling him to control the others. The Nazgul were slaves to their rings and so to him thru the one


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## Samweis (Jan 27, 2003)

When the Nazgûl are bound to the ONE RING, why aren´t they bound to Frodo resp. Bilbo. The ONE RING was in Shire not in Mordor!

And another thing, how is Sauron able to have the nine rings of the mortal men, when he is the whole time of the LOTR a disembodied "person"?

And a last thing, what means the abbrevation UT?


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## Glomund (Jan 27, 2003)

Frodo and Bilbo cannot control the Nazgul because they do not have the personal power or will to control "any" of the rings power, it takes someone else of power, that is why Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel all are afraid to take it, they could use the power but the evil would make them just like Sauron, and Saruman wanted the ring , and , again in UT tells the Nazgul,


> I have it not, as surely its servants perceive without telling; for if I had it, then you would bow before me and call me lord.


Sauron is unable to take physical form, but I always thought of him like the Nazgul, no real body, but able to manipulate real objects, tho he probably did not have to wear the nine rings, just possess them, and maybe not even that, if Saruman could have controled them ( the Nazgul) if he had the one.

UT is the abeviation for Unfinished Tales, a book put out by Christopher Tolkien after J.R.R. passed, it has collections of writings about various parts of his histories, for the general time of the books it has " the hunt for the ring", the quest of Erebor(hobbit), and the battle of the fords of Isen, plus a account of how Isulder lost the ring and other stories from different times of middle earth.


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## Samweis (Jan 27, 2003)

Dear Glomund,

first I´m interested in the quote, where did you find it?

second I haven´t read the Unfinished Tales yet. I think it isn´t translated into German so far.

Maybe I should read it in English.


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## ltas (Jan 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Samweis _
> *Maybe I should read it in English.  *


Good luck


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## Samweis (Jan 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ltas _
> *Good luck  *



Thanks Itas.

I require luck, because fantasy books are difficult to read in a foreign language, because some vocabulary you are not able to find in a dictionary.


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## Kalmanluin (Feb 1, 2003)

I believe it is safe to assume that all that Sauron possessed was destroyed when the One Ring was destroyed. He possessed the Nine, and the three or four which remained of the Dwarven rings-which he helped to create, and when the One fell into the fire of Orodruin he lost all of his power and so all he made, all he possessed was destroyed.


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## Menelvagor (Feb 13, 2003)

In 'the shadow of the past' Gandalf comments that "the Nine he (Sauron) has gathered to himself, the Seven also or they are destroyed..." but at the council of Elrond he tells Galdor "the Nine the Nazgul keep"

However, there is a stronger statement in 'Unfinished Tales of Numenor & Middle Earth'

The Nazgul are: 

"his mightiest servants, the ringwraiths, who had no will but his own, being each utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved him,
which Sauron held"

& later..

"they were entirely enslaved to their nine rings which he now held"

I would agree that Sauron keeps the rings as he has lost the One (presumably if someone else mastered the One he would command the Nine if they were wearing their rings?).



Another question though, why isn't Sauron invisible when wearing the One? I don't know if this is explicitly stated in the book but how else would Isildur cut the ring from his hand?


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## ltas (Feb 13, 2003)

Thanks for the quotes.


> _Originally posted by Menelvagor _
> *I would agree that Sauron keeps the rings as he has lost the One (presumably if someone else mastered the One he would command the Nine if they were wearing their rings?).*


That sounds very reasonable. It seems that it's vitally important for Sauron to keep the Nine, otherwise he would loose his most important servants to the keeper of the One. 

But why doesn't Sauron turn invisible? As far as I remember, no-one here has been able to give a final answer to that question. I don't think it has been discussed in the "Of the Rings of Power" either. I've heard that there's a section about the Dark Rings in the "History of ME" though, perhaps it's mentioned there...

P.S. It's nice you joined, Menelvagor, enjoy your time here!


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## DurinLongBeard (Feb 13, 2003)

I think it is highly probable that sauron doesnt turn invisible because he put himself(malice, desire to rule, you know the story) into the ring. It seems to me that Sauron and the ring are one. Therefore, it would not make sense for when he put thing ring (his other half) on that he would turn invisible. Rather i think it would complete him and give him the power of to rule all and so on. I dont know it just makes sense to me


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## ltas (Feb 15, 2003)

Sounds pretty sensible to me. (However, there are people here who are very strongly against "the Ring is an extention of Sauron"-theory.)


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## Tidenergy (May 24, 2018)

Samweis said:


> After the ONE RING is dissapeared in the fires of the Orodruin, the eight rings of the Nazgûl were destroyed. But what happened with the ninth ring of the Witch-King? Does anybody know?


In the Silmarillion, on page 348, Tolkien wrote,"they (the Nazgul) fell under the thraldom of the ring they bore and under the domination of the One, which was Sauron's." Thus the Lord of the Nazgul was wearing his ring in the battle of the Pelennor Fields and it would have been left on the field when he was slain.


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## Deleted member 12094 (May 24, 2018)

Well, no ring was found on the Pelennor Fields, was there?

What I cannot understand is how you can still come to this conclusion when the quotes from LotR and UT in this old thread are, at least in my view, quite clear on this matter.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (May 24, 2018)

Welcome to the forum , Tidenergy!

But yes, multiple statements by Tolkien, both in LOTR and later, make it clear that Sauron held the Rings. Although not made explicit, I believe it is implied in the very first discussion of them in "The Shadow of the Past". Gandalf tells Frodo:

_And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he _fades_: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the dark power that rules the Rings.
_
Sauron tried to entice the Elves, in his persona as "Giver of Gifts"; in that he was successful, but not in the completion of his plan, which was to entrap and enslave them. Therefore, after capturing many of the Rings, he attempted to use them to to do the same with the "lesser" races.

His purpose in giving out the Rings was to enslave their bearers; once they became "invisible permanently", that is, totally under his control, there was no need to allow them to keep the "gifts"-- they now "walked in twilight".

I notice some odd notions expressed in this thread -- that Sauron might become invisible while wearing the One, for example.

And the idea that he was "disembodied"; where does that come from? Because he doesn't "appear" in the book? Or from the movies' Sauron the Evil Lighthouse?


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## Tidenergy (May 24, 2018)

Merroe said:


> Well, no ring was found on the Pelennor Fields, was there?
> 
> What I cannot understand is how you can still come to this conclusion when the quotes from LotR and UT in this old thread are, at least in my view, quite clear on this matter.


I agree that there was no ring found, but I will side with what Tolkien wrote over a third party that of his son in UT. Further in LotR, Tolkien has Gandalf telling Galdor (as mentioned in this thread) in the Council of Elrond, on page 327 of The Fellowship of the Ring, "The Nine the Nazgul keep. The seven are taken or destroyed." Thus Sauron has not taken the Nine and the ring still be not found on the field. However, I will look again at UT on this subject.


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## Elthir (May 24, 2018)

These quotes are still from JRRT, if posthumously published in _Unfinished_ _Tales_ or elsewhere (adding two published in _The Lord of the Rings_).

"They were by far the most powerful of his servants, and the most suitable for such a mission, since they were entirely enslaved to their Nine Rings, which he now himself held..." JRRT _Unfinished Tales_

"At length he (Sauron) resolved that no others would serve him in this case but his mightiest servants, the Ringwraiths, who had no will but his own, being utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved him, which Sauron held." JRRT _Unfinished Tales_

"I do not think they could have attacked him with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor command of his that did not interfere with their errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills;..." JRRT_ Letters_

"True, alas, is our guess. This is not one of the Úlairi, as many have long supposed. It is Sauron himself who has taken shape again and now grows apace; and he is gathering again all the Rings to his hand;..." Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age

"So it is now; the Nine he has gathered to himself; the Seven also, or else they are destroyed. The Three are hidden still." The Lord of the Rings

"You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine." The Lord of the Rings

Despite the Nine the Nazgul "keep", for myself, I think the message is that sometime after losing the One, Sauron took back the Nine.


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## Alcuin (May 24, 2018)

Thinking the Lord of the Nazgûl’s ring of power was left fallen upon the battlefield is a logical conclusion for a reader who isn’t conversant with _Letters of JRR Tolkien_ or _Unfinished Tales_ or _History of Middle-earth_ – or The Tolkien Forum.  Even a casual first-time reader knows at this point that the Ringwraiths are _Ring_-wraiths because they wore the Nine Rings, so it’s a natural conclusion that when their leader dies, he leaves behind the ring he wore. You’d have to be a very careful, attentive reader to notice that Sauron has taken the Nine Rings to himself, presumably until he can re-obtain the One Ring. 

The logic here must be his possessing the Nine Rings makes it easier for him to control the Nine Nazgûl. There is a TTF member, *Gordis*, who has spent a good deal of time thinking about this problem: If I understand her correctly, I believe she argues (or argued) that the Nine Ringwraiths enjoyed considerable freedom of action after Gil-galad and Elendil discomfited Sauron, enabling Isildur to take the One Ring so that Sauron’s “spirit fled”, as Gandalf described it to Frodo. If *Gordis* becomes aware of this thread – and I hope she does! - she can speak for herself; but I think her position that Sauron’s absence gave the Ringwraiths some reprieve from his overwhelming and domineering personality is probably accurate. 

“_*Possession is nine-tenths of the law,*_” is an old adage (its origins are discussed here), and in the case of the One Ring represented an effectively mortal threat to Sauron. If another, powerful individual (say, Gandalf) obtained the Ring, Sauron would be effectively reduced to impotence, as he was when it was destroyed, since his native power was bound up in the Ring and would be transferred to another. 

As long as Sauron lacked possession of his Ring, the wielders of the Three Rings were free to use their Rings of Power for the purposes for which they were made: “understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all things unstained. … But all that has been wrought by those who wield the Three will turn to their undoing, and their minds and hearts will become revealed to Sauron, if he regains the One.” 

That implies that Sauron cannot see into the minds and hearts of the Nine Nazgûl without his One Ring, either. If that’s the correct interpretation of Tolkien’s tale, then it makes sense that he would take their Rings of Power from them as “pledges of [their] conduct, to be returned later,” as Gandalf put it in rather different circumstances to Saruman, who took offense; but I don’t think the Ringwraiths were able to present much resistance to Sauron _in his actual presence_ when he demanded their Rings. And though it is a mighty interesting matter to speculate upon - perhaps some did resist, or sought to avoid him - I imagine the prospect of their master’s finding his Ring and wreaking vengeance upon a recalcitrant Ringwraith was probably enough to encourage them to coöperate immediately. 

Finally, Gandalf hints at the beginning in his conversation with Frodo in Bag End that Sauron has physical possession of the Nine Rings rather than the Ringwraiths themselves: “The Ringwraiths are deadly enemies, but they are only shadows yet of the power and terror they would possess if the Ruling Ring was on their master’s hand again.” I interpret that to mean that once in possession of the One Ring, Sauron could then safely (for him!) return the Nine Rings of Power to his servants, who could then in turn use the powers of their Rings once more. 

*Tidenergy*, it was also my first impression that the Witch-king’s Ring of Power was left upon the field before the Gates of Minas Tirith. But after many(*!*) re-readings and pouring over the other books - _Letters_, _Unfinished Tales_, and the various volumes of _History of Middle-earth_ that cover the writing of _The Lord of the Rings_ - I must conclude that Sauron took the Nine Rings from the Nazgûl in order to better control them until he could re-obtain the Ruling Ring. Remember, the whole point of the Rings of Power was so that Sauron could _control_ other people: he wasn’t about to let the Ringwraiths do as they pleased until he managed to scrounge up his own Ring once again. Sauron was the ultimate control freak. He’d fit right into today’s headlines out of Washington or Silicon Valley or Moscow or Beijing. That’s what gives the story its pointy end. 

But if you disagree, by all means, gather your arguments, don’t be shy, and don’t be cowed by our different opinions! Put *your* case forward. And welcome to The Tolkien Forum.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (May 25, 2018)

Excellent post, Alcuin!

I would point out a difference though: "The Three were not made by Sauron, nor did he ever touch them". Not so the Seven or the Nine. They were made with his help, and therefore tainted with his "spirit", or "ego", or whatever metaphor you might choose. I'd suggest this made the Men, at least, after their fall into Nazgul, subject to him, whether he possessed the One or no.

That is, he could "see into their hearts and minds" even without the One. Which is not to say they were merely puppets, or robots. "This is my hour!" the Chief cries to Gandalf, indicating they had volition.

As to what influence he had on them during the millennium or so in which he was disincarnate, that is a question. The Tale of Years says "Sauron passes away and the Ringwraiths go into the shadows". Their activities during this period don't appear to be counter to his goals, at any rate.


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## Elthir (May 25, 2018)

I think the Nine Wraiths were subject to Sauron, but their great mission was to take the One, bring it back to Mordor and hand it over, give it away (<- that last part sounds pretty obvious now that I write this!). But...

… perhaps Sauron could take no chances here, and thus the Nine were "... the most suitable for such a mission, since they were entirely enslaved to their Nine Rings, which he now himself held..."

So maybe it's a case of measure and assurance. They Nine were "entirely" enslaved, or "utterly" subservient to a Sauron who wore the Nine Rings (on his nine fingers), or at least held them physically. And I think he would want such assurance given the nature of this mission, and the nature of the One.

Although admittedly, I've probably not thought about this matter as much as Gordis, or others.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jun 15, 2018)

Right now I'm picturing Sauron wearing Dwarf-rings on his toes.


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## Tidenergy (Jun 15, 2018)

Galin said:


> These quotes are still from JRRT, if posthumously published in _Unfinished_ _Tales_ or elsewhere (adding two published in _The Lord of the Rings_).
> 
> "They were by far the most powerful of his servants, and the most suitable for such a mission, since they were entirely enslaved to their Nine Rings, which he now himself held..." JRRT _Unfinished Tales_
> 
> ...


Okay, I have read the book. Thanks for Tolkien's quotes from UT, unfortunately they are taken out of context as shown on page 441, where the title "(ii) OTHER VERSIONS OF THE STORY" put them where they belong. Being a published author myself with copious notes, I suggest since Tolkien's notes contradict what he has written in LOTR, then he had a reason for that. His whole epic story revolves around a lost ring of power that was found. Thus, I suppose he had a subplot of another lost ring of power not found on the field of battle for the coming Age of Men. He did it on purpose. I found it! LOL! The road goes ever on. However, fact is stranger than fiction. Remember Thoth.


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## Elthir (Jun 16, 2018)

Tidenergy said:


> Okay, I have read the book. Thanks for Tolkien's quotes from UT, unfortunately they are taken out of context as shown on page 441, where the title "(ii) OTHER VERSIONS OF THE STORY" put them where they belong. Being a published author myself with copious notes, I suggest since Tolkien's notes contradict what he has written in LOTR, then he had a reason for that.



The story in question is not _The Lord of the Rings_ though, but _The Hunt For The Ring_ (in Unfinished Tales), with these other versions being characterized by CJRT as "adding to or modifying the story in important particulars" (that is, The Hunt for The Ring story).

If you would like to argue that these two citations contradict author published work, that's another matter -- but if so we would be dealing with more than one description in any case, including the two I posted above from _The Lord of the Rings_.


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