# So did orcs and dragons have souls or no?



## Prince of Cats (Dec 10, 2008)

Hey Friends,

The topic of dragons really got me thinking about whether orcs and dragons have souls. Without using text (and I would appreciate some text as long as its without jabs) I will demonstrate why I believe they should and would have souls.

Dragons were bred right? I've seen the words bred and created used somewhat interchangably around here. A common misconception / point of debate is the speed of evolution, that it's a slow process relating to hundreds or thousands of genes in small increments. This is challenged by the absence of intermediate species in the fossil record and modern molecular technology (gene sequencing specifically).

Take for example Maize/Corn. Here is what an ear of corn looks like as nature made her:

Nature's Ear of Corn:






This particular ear is actually uncommonly fruitful compared to some strains. Regardless, look at the size of the ear and the amount of seeds inside. Now, lets look at man-bred corn ...

Man-bred (ancient mexican farmers) Ear of Corn:





The difference is HUGE. The plants also grow a couple times taller and the leaves and stem is just monstrous. The natural plant grows as a bush, now they grow as spires.

Such an amazing transformation you would think would take tons of manipulating or some sort of Melkor-style powers, when infact it probably took place in under 100 years of breeding within a couple generations of ancient mexican farmers. Genetic sequencing reveals that there are SIX (6) single genes that make this amazing transformation.

Let's try to extrapolate this to dragons. They were bred by Melkor, right (text ref please)? Looking at my example of corn, it doesn't seem that far-fetched that you could quickly breed from a tiny lizard a giant lizard. This breeding isn't a creation, just like ancient mexican farmers didn't create corn, it's just selecting who has sex with who. Only a handful out of tens of thousands of genes were changed. So ... 

1. Can we establish that wild creatures had souls? If not this topic probably ends and my question is answered (as no)
2. If they had souls, would Melkor's breeding take that away? (I think no)
3. Demonstrating how easy traits can be bred out, couldn't this be the case for orcs, too? I don't have a copy of the Silmarillion here to check if Tolkien said anything about them having souls or no.

I've run into writers' block so what do you have to say?


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## HLGStrider (Dec 10, 2008)

I don't know the text, but doesn't it say somewhere that the great dragons were Ainur imprisoned in those bodies? If so then those ones at least would have a soul. 

That said, Smaug is an intelligent life form, obviously. So are Orcs. In order to "breed out" a soul (if this is even possible) one would, I'd think, have to breed out the free will. Smaug at least is capable of working as a free agent. Orcs have this ability somewhat hampered. They tend to scatter like ants whenever their leader is killed, but I would say, yes, they have some sort of soul.

Soul is kind of a vague term though. Are we talking about an eternal essence that continues on after death? 
Are we talking about something that gives them intrinsic value?
Are we talking about something that gives them free will and intelligence?
Are we talking about something that gives them the ability to choose good over evil?

Eternal essence: Not really sure. Only Elves and Men seem to have a clear cut afterlife. 
Intrinsic value: In that all life has some, probably yes. After all, Faramir (While admittedly a high standard to live up to and not the most pragmatic character) would not snare an Orc with falsehood. Even Orcs, in his view, deserved a fair chance. Of course, maybe Faramir is the rehabilitate the serial killer type as opposed to the "hanging judge" type. 
Free Will: As mentioned I think there is proof for them being intelligent beings, though probably not as much so as the other races.
Good over Evil: Again, not really sure. If one captured an Orc at a young age before it had contact with Sauron, maybe, but Sauron seems to specialize in corrupting things past redeemablity (Ring Wraiths), so I doubt that once in his influence an Orc could change.


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## YayGollum (Dec 10, 2008)

I type that, yes, both races have souls. We don't know exactly how Mel made dragons, but at least the examples of the race that I get to see seem to have souls. The elves give us different theories on how Mel made Orcs, but they always seem to have souls, too. Yes, their was a point where Tolkien wrote that Mel inserted spirits into things called dragons. Mayhaps all dragons are made this way, mayhaps there are different sorts. 

The point was made that, while the original dragons most likely had souls, why would their descendants, since Eru's favor seems to be the only method for a soul's creation? Of course, Eru made a little speech (probably just impotently sniping, "Yeah, well, whatever you do, I planned it, so I win!" but who knows?) about how everything Mel does is no problem for him, since it just means more entertainment for him, so I don't see why he'd deny souls to infant dragons. 

Comparing dragons to corn makes sense, but I would employ more words of praise for Mel, since making a dragon out of some kind of lizard is plenty more impressive than making corn bigger, but oh well.  I wish that Tolkien had written about the missing links between lizard and Glaurung, though. But then, Glaurung was most probably just a much better version of Carcharoth, a weird experiment. 

Towards the numbered questions ---> 

1. I have no large problem with believing that the animals in Tolkien's universe had souls. Plenty seem intelligent, plenty of decently intelligent people count them about as good as people, and plenty of more magically-oriented animals seem pretty soulful.

2. I wouldn't think so, and I already mentioned that bit about why I think their descendants would obtain souls.

3. Yes.

Towards free will, dragons and Orcs seem to have the stuff, and I would think that either you have it or you don't. Orcs are probably easier to mentally dominate, but they have as much free will as anybody. When their leader is defeated, as with anyone who never liked the guy and values his own skin, they got out of danger. 

Also, eternal essence: Weren't Orcish souls grabbed by Mel and inserted into new bodies, or was he only recorded as grabbing elfish souls, and I just made that leap on my own? 

Intrinsic value: Of course they have the stuff! Craziness! Who wouldn't think that?

Free will: Well, I already wrote about it. They have as much of the stuff as Eru and the fox who notes strange (as well as nasssty) hobbitses.

Good over evil: If you have free will, you can choose between whatever you think is good and whatever you think as evil. Also, your views on which is which can change. An Orc doesn't even have to be raised by one of the more popularly seen as good races to change his opinions. All he needs is an open mind and such.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Dec 10, 2008)

I can't answer your question. Not because I don't have one, I certainly do, but it would take us into the realm of the afterlife and of various religious dogmas and scientific beliefs.

And you need to define what you mean by "soul" and its properties. 

Barley


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## Prince of Cats (Dec 11, 2008)

Barliman Butterbur said:


> And you need to define what you mean by "soul" and its properties.



I was thinking like that gifted to the dwarves maybe?


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## Illuin (Dec 11, 2008)

Interesting post Prince (I’m still trying to figure out if my cats have souls; when one dies, another one just happens to show up on the porch the next day ). As far as Dragons, I agree with Yay. In _The Children of Húrin_ it states,_ "Against them he sent his formidable servant, Glaurung, a powerful spirit in the form of a huge wingless dragon of fire."_ That’s good enough for me.

As far as Orcs (at least the first stock); I’ve always "imagined" they were Elves that had their souls removed in some horrible way, leaving only the shell of the former Elf; which in turn caused their bodies to wither and mutate (i.e. the unified "Body, Soul, and Spirit" theory). This also resulted in their savage, animalistic behavior, as well as being easily susceptible to domination. It does say that Orcs hated their master, and also hated themselves; but I think they hated everybody, and everything (even each other) because they were devoid of a soul; running on instinct alone, unless they were controlled by a master. Just my own little theory .


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## chrysophalax (Dec 11, 2008)

Ack! Scary thought, Illuin! Let's not be goin' there in the RP, please, it's too awful to contemplate!


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## Úlairi (Dec 12, 2008)

Prince of Cats said:


> 1. Can we establish that wild creatures had souls? If not this topic probably ends and my question is answered (as no)
> 2. If they had souls, would Melkor's breeding take that away? (I think no)
> 3. Demonstrating how easy traits can be bred out, couldn't this be the case for orcs, too? I don't have a copy of the Silmarillion here to check if Tolkien said anything about them having souls or no.




Earlier Orcs? Yes. Later Orcs? Maybe, maybe not. I'm going to say no. My prerogative and I certainly don't need to post where Tolkien says that. No one else does - which is an _observation_ and not a _jab_.
Good question. Possibly. _Tolkien_ does say that Ilúvatar wouldn't provide them with _fëar_.
Yes. It has something to do with the ancestry becoming more earthbound. Thus becoming more and more _animalistic_.



Illuin said:


> As far as Orcs (at least the first stock); I’ve always "imagined" they were Elves that had their souls *removed* in some horrible way, leaving only the shell of the former Elf; which in turn caused their bodies to wither and mutate (i.e. the unified "Body, Soul, and Spirit" theory).



As a physicist I was hoping you could refer me to where the Elves had their souls _removed_? Just curious. I just don't understand some of these difficult things; they're just so darn hard to grasp. Kinda like physics. Oh, and don't worry about _quoting_ it; just refer me to it. Sounds very interesting.


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## Illuin (Dec 12, 2008)

> Originally posted by Úlairi
> _Sounds very interesting._


 
Thank you; I thought so myself. This had more to do with an inside joke regarding a current RPG, so your thirst for quotes will have to go unquenched.


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## YayGollum (Dec 12, 2008)

Am I incorrect, Illuin person, in thinking that you weren't thinking about physics when you typed that Orcs might have had their souls removed? I figure that you were thinking more along the lines of the sort of stuff that Tolkien wrote about ---> Crazy magic that makes no sense. Mel is a god kind of thing, Tolkien wrote that he could mess with souls in at least one way, so the leap that he could have had the ability to extract them is not so difficult. I don't believe that you could quote something of Tolkien's where an elf's soul was extracted, but, from what I have read, the idea doesn't sound to have been fetched too far. Was the Ulairi person even typing about the R. P. G. thing?  

The idea of Orcs being soulless could make sense. I just don't like it and, therefore, whether Tolkien might agree or not, I employ my knowledge to defend my preference. Mayhaps, in some situations (who knows which ones?), I am less honest that way, but it's one method of obtaining entertainment. I read the bit that you mentioned about later generations of Orcs not getting souls. It seems that Tolkien was just writing to himself, considering ideas, trying to work details out. Where he wrote that Eru wouldn't have taken the time in his soul factory to help the Orcs out, he mentioned that Eru wouldn't have done it, unless they were redeemable. Therefore, I conclude that they were redeemable. Why wouldn't they be? If Mel can twist a mind one way, can't someone else untwist it?


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## Illuin (Dec 12, 2008)

> by YayGollum
> _Am I incorrect, Illuin person, in thinking that you weren't thinking about physics when you typed that Orcs might have had their souls removed? I figure that you were thinking more along the lines of the sort of stuff that Tolkien wrote about ---> Crazy magic that makes no sense. Mel is a god kind of thing, Tolkien wrote that he could mess with souls in at least one way, so the leap that he could have had the ability to extract them is not so difficult. I don't believe that you could quote something of Tolkien's where an elf's soul was extracted, but, from what I have read, the idea doesn't sound to have been fetched too far. Was the Ulairi person even typing about the R. P. G. thing?_


 

No, I wasn’t talking about physics; and Úlairi wasn't referring to the R.P.G. thing. He was jesting, as was I in relation to another post. My Orc post had to do with our R.P.G. (just to throw some subtle ideas your way ), as well as being a believable (and creepy) idea.


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