# Gollum the Indispensable



## Harad (Mar 18, 2002)

Everyone knows that Gollum saved Middle Earth at the end of LOTR. But earlier when Frodo entered Morrrdorrr, Gollum was just as crucial. Is there any other way that Frodo and Sam could have found their way thru the Emyn Muil, Dead Marshes, and into Morrrdorr without that helpful little creature?


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## baraka (Mar 18, 2002)

If they had another "guide" such as "Gandalf or Aragorn" they could have, but NO. .
Hmmm. Maybe if they had bribed an orc?


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## chrysophalax (Mar 18, 2002)

It is with fear and trembling that I enter this discussion, having
taken great pleasure in the surgical precision with which you carve
up those who don't know their stuff,but have little liking to endure 
the same.However..
A possibility might be that had they had someone with them that might
have enlisted the help of the eagles,that might have given them a straight shot.After all, at Gandalf's behest they were rescued by
them.It is conceivable Gandalf could have sent them(the eagles) sooner to help accomplish their quest in a more timely fashion.Of 
course then it may not have been as suspenseful and therefore not
as great a work as it is. Respectfully submitted...


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## Tar-Palantir (Mar 18, 2002)

Maybe the Emyn Muil (eventually), but I doubt very seriously if they'd have made it through the Dead Marshes. Would they have even tried? But even going around the Marshes, they still would have been stymied at the Morannon. As a matter of fact, Frodo was going to try the Black Gate until our hero talked him out of it. Could he have somehow gotten in safely? It doesn't seem likely. Frodo obviously knew of no other way. Gandalf seems not to have even considered Cirith Ungol - who knows how he would have gotten in had he stayed with Frodo? Ditto for Aragorn. So, it seems to me that Gollum was the only person in ME who could have gotten Frodo in the way he did, although I will allow for the fact that Gandalf (and maybe Aragorn) could have come to the conclusion at some point that CU was the way to go.


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## Greenwood (Mar 18, 2002)

Citing the Harad Doctrine that says anything a character says or does is merely JRRT coming up with a good story, I will toss in the view that without Gollum some other way through the Emyn Muil, the Dead Marshes, and into Mordor would have been provided by JRRT.


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## Harad (Mar 18, 2002)

Some interesting ideas have been posted:

1. Somebody still needs to describe how Frodo and Sam would have succeeded on their own.

2. I like Baraka's idea of bribing an Orc. However was there one instance in all of JRRT's works where an Orc parlayed with a good guy? I can't recall any interaction between the two sides except fights to the death.

3. Chrysophalax' suggestion that they "might 
have enlisted the help of the eagles" is possible. The problem is that the eagles were is danger of being overexposed having been used twice in the hobbit, and twice in LOTR, with another use coming up at the end of LOTR. And as in several other threads, if the eagles could help in progressing to Mt. Doom, why not use them from the beginning?

4. I agree with Tar-Pal that "Gandalf (and maybe Aragorn) could have come to the conclusion at some point that CU was the way to go."

5. The new character, "Dem," enters on the outskirts of Mordor, perhaps one of the ancient race of original denizens, unhappy with the regime of Sauron, displaced by the evil hordes, and seeking vengence.

6. An earlier appearence of Faramir? A nice symmetry as Farmir helps the Quest succeed, as his brother was nearly responsible for its failure.


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## Mormegil (Mar 18, 2002)

I think that Gandalf or Aragorn could have got Frodo and Sam into Mordor. I also think that Faramir is a possibility.

I think that Frodo and Sam could have got into Mordor alone, without Gollum's help. They might have found the passageway to Shelob's lair by accident and lucked their way through.

Other than that, a new character might have been introduced. Maybe a Man of Gondor who had been captured and kept prisoner in Mordor, but escaped through a secret passageway. Frodo and Sam might bump into him and persuade him to help them.
I don't know how they would have made it through the Dead Marshes without Gollum though.


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## YayGollum (Mar 18, 2002)

Thank you so much, Gollum supporters! Yay Gollum Supporters! I can't really call you Gollum fans because none of you ever come to the Gollum Fan Club.  Of course, everyone knows my opinion. Gollum was the hero. The nasssty hobbits would have starved or died in the Dead Marshes. Sorry I couldn't come up with a scenario without him, it would have been stupid to try. He's just so great! Yay Gollum!


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## aragil (Mar 18, 2002)

*The mountain ranger*

There ain't no such thing as an impassable mountain chain. No matter how sheer those Mountains of Shadow are, there is a way to climb over them. Tolkien could have brought in Sir Faramir Hillary, or Ghan-beri-Norgay Sherpa to get them over the mountains without relying on thre failures of spiders or Orc-patrols. Or Gollum (although he was a pretty good climber).


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## Quercus (Mar 18, 2002)

Sorry guys, but you'll never convince me that Gollum saved ME. Gollum would not have gone to Mt. Doom on his own, he was following Frodo. Sam too was following Frodo. It was Frodo's steel will that set the course. 

Yes it's true that Gollum guided Frodo and Sam through Emyn Muil and the Dead Marshes, but that's only because Frodo made him swear on the precious.

As for who could have guided Frodo and Sam besides Gollum. Maybe Aragorn, but we all know that he had more important things to do!


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## baraka (Mar 18, 2002)

> Sorry guys, but you'll never convince me that Gollum saved ME. Gollum would not have gone to Mt. Doom on his own, he was following Frodo. Sam too was following Frodo. It was Frodo's steel will that set the course.


Well, Gollum fell into the fire of Mt. Doom, destroying the ring and saving ME. I think that we all know that he didn´t do it willinly, but he did it nevertheless.


> Yes it's true that Gollum guided Frodo and Sam through Emyn Muil and the Dead Marshes, but that's only because Frodo made him swear on the precious.


So, he still lead them.


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## Tulidian (Mar 18, 2002)

It's funny how Gollum nearly destroys the world, but also saves it. If I remember correctly, he left the Misty Mountains and eventually came to Mordor and then obviously Sauron squeezed the information out of him, that a hobbit named Baggins had the ring. If it weren't for Gollum, Frodo would have had a very easy trip to Rivendell, and maybe farther, although Sauron would have most likely found out that the ring was in Rivendell. However, I too belive that Sam and Frodo wouldn't have found a way to Mount doom without Gollum, unless they met someone else along the road to help them.


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## My_Precious (Mar 18, 2002)

In a short answer: No, I don't think so.
Even being led by Gollum, Sam & Frodo were nearly killed or captured many times. Mordor didn't have any open ways inside, and the one that Sam & Frodo used was guarded by Shelob. As Gandalf said, even if Frodo was with Glorfindel or Aragorn, they wouldn't be able to fight all the orks of Mordor.


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## baraka (Mar 18, 2002)

> even if Frodo was with Glorfindel or Aragorn, they wouldn't be able to fight all the orks of Mordor.


I wonder if Glorfindel would have been in the Fellowship, if he had allowed F & S to go into Mordor alone?


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## Goldberry (Mar 18, 2002)

All good points have been made.

IMO, Tolkien would have had to invent another secret way into Mordor or have one of the other characters know of secret way into Cirith Ungol. Both Gandalf and Faramir were afraid of Cirith Ungol. Aragorn was going to take him to the Black Gate, which Tolkien paints as an impossible way to get in. Tolkien made me think the secret way into CU was the only possible way in, and Gollum seemed to be the only one to know that. If they had known about Shelob, they might have been able to make their way through without being hurt. It was a dangerous way to go, with Shelob, but the only way to elude the eye.


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## Harad (Mar 18, 2002)

Aragorn or Gandalf may have started toward the Black Gate as Frodo did. They would then have either figured a way in or tried plan B as Frodo did. Both were aware of CU, and might have used some opportunity to sssssssssssssneak in. Gandalf, for example, had a few tricks up his sleeves to cornfuse the Watcher. He may have even befuddled Shagrat and Gorbag.


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## My_Precious (Mar 18, 2002)

Wouldn't that attract Sauron's attention?


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## Harad (Mar 18, 2002)

Wouldn't the OneRing attract Sauron's attention?


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## My_Precious (Mar 18, 2002)

Not if you don't use it. Oh well, anything's possible.


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## Harad (Mar 18, 2002)

Remember how the Ring got heavier and heavier to Frodo in Morrrdorrr even though he wasnt using it? Remember how the Watcher in the Water and the Orc Chieftain in Moria went after Frodo even though he wasnt wearing it? The Ring, worn or not, calls out to Evil. (Another incident at the Gladden Fields mentions this power).

Bottom line if the Ring could be ssssssssnuck, so could Gandalf. (Also remember Gandalf ssssssssssnuck into Dol Guldor).


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## My_Precious (Mar 18, 2002)

Ok, you're correct.


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## Greenwood (Mar 18, 2002)

> Somebody still needs to describe how Frodo and Sam would have succeeded on their own.



OK. Option 1: Frodo and Sam were finding already their way through the Emym Muil without Gollum's help, so they make it through on their own. Then they use their experience of crossing the Midgewater Marshes in Book I as a guide for how to find their way through the Dead Marshes. Finally, on the borders of Mordor, Frodo uses the Ring to do some burglary ala Bilbo in The Hobbit to steal some orc gear for Sam and himself which they then use to disguise themselves as orcs and march through the Black Gate mixed in with a company of orcs just as they made their final approach to Orodruin in ROTK. Of course, this is alll somewhat boring so very few people read LOTR and Tolkien spends the end of his days an impoverished, nearly forgotten, retired academic living on an inadequate pension.  

Option II: Frodo and Sam are captured by an orc band while trying to enter Mordor, the Ring is delivered to Sauron who promptly sets himself up as the all powerful Dark Lord of Middle Earth. End of story.

Option III: Frodo and Sam sink into quicksand in the Dead Marshes. End of story.

Of course, options II and III lead to no publisher being willing to publish LOTR and Tolkien ends up as in the end of option I.  

Option IV: Tolkien, being the great writer he was, comes up with another interesting, exciting way of Frodo succeeding in his quest and we all spend our spare time debating the logic of it with Harad.


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## Harad (Mar 19, 2002)

Option IV is the only viable option, as you point out, and that undoubtedly involves someone helping Frodo. You know it, I know it, and JRRT knew it. That someone, was Gollum the Indispensable, all the other known choices being otherwise engaged.


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## Greenwood (Mar 19, 2002)

I knew it would come down to option IV.


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## Ged (Mar 19, 2002)

What is particularly interesting here, though, is that ME was eventually saved because of Gollum's desire for the One Ring! Gollum only assisted F and S so that he could get them to Shelob, who would in his plans eat them and throw the ring away. Without Gollum's continuing desire for "his precious" F and S would not have got very far IMO.

Who touched the ring in the third age?
Isildur
Deagol
Smeagol (Gollum)
Bilbo
Frodo
Tom B
Sam
Gollum again

Of all these, Gollum is perhaps the most miserable and ignoble. Ironic then that it is He who causes Sauron's destruction. Sauron was effectively therefore the ultimate agent of his own destruction.


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## Tar-Palantir (Mar 19, 2002)

I can remember the first time I read LOTR, when Frodo & Faramir had their chat in Henneth Annun, I thought Faramir was going to lead them into Mordor. Since that first time, the possibility that Faramir could have never entered my mind again. It's an interesting thought. What are the ramifications? 

1) He probably kills Gollum at some point. Can Faramir get the Ring into the fire? 
2) He doesn't get injured trying to get back to Minas Tirith. Does Denethor still try to fry himself? If not, Pippin has no reason to come get Gandalf during his stare-down with the Nazgul. So, does Gandalf chase the Nazgul when he goes after Theoden? Does Theoden then die? Does Eowyn (with a little help from Master Holbylta) still kill the Nazgul? 
3) He doesn't contribute to the "healing" of Eowyn and she takes the role of Glenn Close in "Fatal Attraction".


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## My_Precious (Mar 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Harad _
> *Remember how the Ring got heavier and heavier to Frodo in Morrrdorrr even though he wasnt using it? Remember how the Watcher in the Water and the Orc Chieftain in Moria went after Frodo even though he wasnt wearing it? The Ring, worn or not, calls out to Evil. (Another incident at the Gladden Fields mentions this power).
> 
> Bottom line if the Ring could be ssssssssnuck, so could Gandalf. (Also remember Gandalf ssssssssssnuck into Dol Guldor). *


Yes, but that proves my point. Sauron didn't notice the ring because he thought Fellowship would bring it to Gondor, and try to use it, so he concentrated all of his thoughts and forces on the battle. If Aragorn and Gandalf, etc would accompany Frodo and Sam, there would be no one to distract Sauron!


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## Parrot (Mar 19, 2002)

Obviously, a key part of Gollum's involvement is not just in guiding them into Mordor but unwittingly completing the quest. I wonder what Sam might have done if Gollum had never shown at the Cracks of Doom and Frodo refuses to throw the ring. He would assuredly try to persuade him and fail. Then what?

Would Sam's fealty to Frodo hold and he simply acquiesce or would the realization that the future of all ME hangs in the balance lend him the temerity to oppose his master and try to take the ring?

If so, would he be able to take it?

Having taken it, could he dispose of it any more than Frodo could? His innocence and innate goodness seemed to enable him to resist the power of the ring better than most at Cirith Ungol (but not completely and maybe he just didin't have it long enough), so is he possibly the one being who could willfully destroy it?

(This is assuming, of course, that he could even see Frodo)


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## Harad (Mar 19, 2002)

> so is he possibly the one being who could willfully destroy it?



I would put my money on either Aragorn or Faramir being able to destroy the Ring, at least to same extent as Sam. 

LOTR did not demonstrate conclusively that any Man (Hobbit being a subclass) could do so.


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## Parrot (Mar 19, 2002)

Not to go too far off-topic I hope but what is the main key to resistance to the ring? Is it strength and nobility or purity of heart, no desire for power? 

I based my Sam proposal on his innocence and thus no desire but I agree that Aragorn and Faramir would add strength/nobility to a purity of heart, though markedly different from Sam's.


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## Greenwood (Mar 19, 2002)

> I would put my money on either Aragorn or Faramir being able to destroy the Ring, at least to same extent as Sam.
> 
> LOTR did not demonstrate conclusively that any Man (Hobbit being a subclass) could do so.



The *logic* of LOTR is that no one could willingly destroy the Ring. Certainly no mortal.


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## Harad (Mar 19, 2002)

Thats your logic. Fortunately the book never states that. For the proof to be in the book, every mortal would have to try and fail.

In fact the mortals that handled the Ring were:

Isildur: failed to destroy the Ring
Gollum: destroyed the Ring albeit involuntarily (or was it?)
Bilbo: relinquished the Ring, thereby "destroying" it for his own self
Sam: ditto
Frodo: failed to destroy the Ring

That leaves out a lot of mortals, as well as being a mixed record for the ones that arent left out.

Thats logic.


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