# Who Are These People? Tom Bombadil, Goldberry, Barrow-wights, Elbereth.



## Anamatar IV (Aug 11, 2002)

*Who Are These People?*

first off who the hell is tom bombadill. Who's goldberry? Who are the barrow wights? Who is elbereth and gilthoniel? who are they?


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## Beorn (Aug 11, 2002)

Tom B and Goldberry are characters that Peter Jackson left out. Barrow-wights captured the four hobbits, Tom B rescued them.

'A Elbereth Gilthoniel' is an expression, but I can't tell you what it means   . Someone else here can....


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## Lhunithiliel (Aug 11, 2002)

How about READING the BOOKS first and then post?


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## Ancalagon (Aug 11, 2002)

About Tom; read this thread http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2367

'A Elbereth Gilthoniel' means 'O Elbereth Star-kindler'
If you have any further questions please feel free to ask

I will follow this post with a post about The Barrow Wights. If you are truly interested you may learn something from it


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## Ancalagon (Aug 11, 2002)

Hello Alphack,
Regarding Barrow-Wights, I posted this elsewhere, but it ought to answer a mountain of questions. The questions were posed by Amandil on another forum.

Question: 
1.) Who were the Wights? We know they were sent by Angmar, but what were their origins before they passed into the shadow world? Could they have possibly been the men of Carn Dum, who were killed in the siege of Cardolan. Could Angmar have used these evil spirits to haunt the Barrows in order to keep anyone from ever settling in that region again? 

A) This is my personal opinion, based on one quote only. They are certainly the tortured souls and spirits emanated from Angband, though they are neither Elvish, nor or they corrupted Maiar spirits. 
For they revealed themselves to Merry in their true form; 

quote: 
'The Men of Carn Dum came on us at night, and we were worsted. Ah! the spear in my heart!' He clutched at his breast. No! No! he said, opening his eyes. What am I saying, I have been dreaming 

I beleive this quote in itself signifies the origin of these spirits as Men, captured, tortured and corrupted by Melkor/Sauron, died in captivity, spirits then subject to Sauron, master of phantoms that he was, and the irony being that they were sent to inhabit the barrows of their own kind. A mockery in itself that they re-animated the bones of the Kings of old, haunting the places that were esteemed by the Numenoreans, who the Witch-king was charged with destroying. My thoughts and always up for debate. 

Question: 
2.) Bombadil told the hobbits to pass the barrows on the west (in the direction of the Lords of the West-Valar/Aman). When the hobbits reached the hill with the saucer shaped hollow on it's crown, they fell asleep on the east side (in the direction of the Lord of the East-Sauron/Mordor) of the standing stone. Is this, along with the Witch King's visit to the downs, what initiated their capture? Had they heeded Tom's advice and slept on the west side of the stone, would they have escaped the Downs unharmed? Was thier capture by Old Man Willow initiated by the Witch King's visit? Why wasn't Bombadil aware of the evil presence of Angmar, especially since his presence aroused that which was evil in The Old Forest? Bombadil apparently knew a bit about the people of Cardolan and about th Wights themselves. If this was the case, why would he be clueless about Angmar, the being that initiated the fall of Cardolan and the haunting of the Barrows? 

A) No matter which side they slept on, they were destined to be captured. They had followed the path as best they could, the fact however remains that they dwelt too long in a place that was still under the spell of the Wights. They had become disorientated in the fog, which was deliberately set as a method of confusing them. The sleep, which might be explained by the journey, the food, the warmth, was still most likely an enchantment, for they had rested beside a stone, and this Tom had warned them about. 
As far as Old Man Willow goes; he was black in his heart either way and had long been set in his ways, long before even the Witch-King had visited the region. 

quote: 
Tom says; 'The countless years had filled them with pride and rooted wisdom, and with malice. But none were more dangerous than the Great Willow; his heart was rotten, but his strength was green etc. 
Trees were not subject to the evils of Melkor, Sauron or the Witch-King, their spite was nurtured and cultivated by very different reasons, mainly filled with a hatred of all things that go free on the earth, gnawing, biting, breaking, hacking, burning; destroyers and usurpers. This would ensure that trees, would be subject to no-one but themselves, disliking any who threatened them, and even for Old Willow-Man, those who didnt. 

Question: 
3.) What's the deal with the gold and jewels? It is more than likely that the Lords and Kings buried in Tyrn Gorthad were entombed with their possessions, but why, when Tom placed them on top of the barrow, was the spell of that barrow broken? 

A) It is clear from the burial rituals of humankind (Germanic, Celtic, Norse and actually most civilisations in history) that people, especially warriors and Kings are prepared for their journey to the afterlife. On many occassions it has been found that these higher beings are buried with their families, dogs and even servants, who themselves may have been killed in order to accompany the warrior or King on their journey; which in itself is pretty crap for those who were related! Though this was a great honour? 
As far as the Wights were concerned, their preparation of their sacrificial subjects depended heavily on the adornment of jewels, trinkets and circlets; this is possibly because the sacrifice itself was to Sauron, therefore they needed to be prepared in a way that would satisfy their master. One doesnt make an offering to their God without first ensuring it is of the highest quality, if it was unsuitable, would this not risk the wrath of their God? Opening the barrow to sunlight and scattering the possessions of the dead would render this useless to any spirit thereafter, for this tomb was already sullied and any sacred meaning it had was lost. Yet the very fact they sacrifice anyone is in mockery of Eru and a victory of of his opponents, I cannot relate it any other way than via a passage from the bible; 
quote: 
The LORD your God will cut off before you the nations you are about to invade and dispossess. But when you have driven them out and settled in their land, and after they have been destroyed before you, be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying, "How do these nations serve their gods? We will do the same." You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods. See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it. Deuteronomy 12:29-32 

Question: 
4.) If the Wights were evil spirits, what was up with the long arm and the hand?? Could it be possible that the arm was the arm of the deceased occupant of the barrow? 
Who knows the ways of these phantoms? If they can manipulate the bones of the dead, there is no reason why, in the dark, they can extend their evil arm beyond the comprehension of us mere mortals. Yet, we know they also had form outside the barrow, for Frodo noticed it just before his capture. 

A) Originally, Barrow-Wights were similar to the Nazgul in Tolkiens mind, even related one could say. In 'The Return of the Shadow (HOME)', CRT noted some of Tolkiens scribblings whereby his intention was that the Nazgul were 'horsed' Barrow-Wights. Actually, that varied a number of times, for the Barrow-Wights who had attacked the group on the downs were horsed. It is intriguing to see the development of the story and the characters at the early stage. Though thankfully it did, for we may have had Bingo as Frodo and Trotter as Strider!! 
However, as he progressed thru writing this chapter some significant changes were introduced that dispelled this idea. The problem is that there is no real reference to who they were in his earlier writings, nor does he elaborate on their demise which is what we really want. 

Yet, the more I searched other references the more I began to understand that the truth is simple enough to find. This lies in Tom Bombadil's verse that he sings when he opens the roof of the Barrow; 

quote: 
Get out, you old Wight! Vanish in the sunlight! 
Shrivel like the cold mist, like the winds go wailing 
It is exactly this that destroys the Wight, possibly combined with the command of Tom's words, but most likely the power of the clear sunlight that fills the tomb, the Wight becomes as a mist and its screams fade into unmeasureable distance. Why use magic where none is indeed required, Tom knew the power of the sunlight and that in itself was the power he needed for this task. 

Regarding Tom stamping on the 'spider-like hand'. There is no clear reference that he does this. Stamping and Thumping could simply describe Tom's 'bull in a china shop' approach to searching the tomb for treasure. Because Frodo thought he saw it, does not mean that Tom stampped upon it. However, if he did, it may be that this 'severed' hand remained in shadow, while the main part of the body was destroyed by the flow of sunlight. This strengthens my belief that it was the Sunlight that destroys the wight more than the verse, if the verse was so powerful, then surely all, even the hand would simply have disappeared. 

Question: 
5.) Tom said that only folks with hearts that never falter would be able to avoid the dreaded spell of the Barrow-wights. Obviously, Tom was one of these particular folk. Why was Frodo able to wake up while Sam, Merry, and Pippen were not? Was Frodo too strong hearted to fall under the spell? Did the Wight think that by sacrificing his friends, that Frodo would become so terrified that he would loose stregnth of heart and succumb to the spell? 

A) I think it is more to do with the way they were caught by the Wights; From the account of Merry and the trailing scream cut short that Frodo heard, it seems they were attacked more vigourously than Frodo. Frodo was already feint and had fallen to the ground, then was gripped by an icy touch that froze his bones, he remembered no more. This suggests that Frodo did not need to be subdued in the same way the others were, Merry states that they were worsted, come upon with what seemed to him a spear in his heart. This attack, which one must imagine was how Pippin and Sam were also worsted, was more severe both mentally and physically than Frodo dropping to the ground, almost swooning before being gripped by the cold-ironlike hand.


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## Anamatar IV (Aug 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Lhunithiliel _
> *How about READING the BOOKS first and then post? *



Ive read the trilogy 7 times. Id be glad if u proved me wrong but it never says anything about who Bombadil and golberry are.


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## In Flames (Aug 12, 2002)

Ehh... If you have read the trilogy 7 times, i dont understand HOW you can have missed it!

Book I - Chapter 6
The Old Forest

There you have it.

If you are wondering what creatures they are, like Buu suggested below, go here http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm Its a very nice encyclopedia.


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## Ponte (Aug 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by In Flames _
> *Ehh... If you have read the trilogy 7 times, i dont understand HOW you can have missed it!
> 
> Book I - Chapter 6
> ...



Perhaps alphack wonder what creatures they are?


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## ReadWryt (Aug 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Lhunithiliel _
> *How about READING the BOOKS first and then post? *



 _*How about reading the Forum Rules about Signature Size before YOU post?* _  ...and how about being less rude?


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## pohuist (Aug 12, 2002)

If you don't understand something from LOTR alone, go to other Tolkien's books, they, among other things, provide marvelous reading. Try the Sil, it will tell you more than you ever wanted to know about both Elbereth and Githoniel.

The UT will probably tell you a bit about the Wights.
And the Encyclopaedia of Arda (the link was provided before), while not Tolkien's provide a skinny on almost all characters.
Finally, there always is this forum, however, you are risking to get the response like Ancalagon's which (with all due respect) goes to places and events never discussed in LOTR and can hardly be useful if you didn't read other Tolkien's works.

Oh, welcome to the forum, BTW.


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## Ancalagon (Aug 12, 2002)

> Finally, there always is this forum, however, you are risking to get the response like Ancalagon's which (with all due respect) goes to places and events never discussed in LOTR and can hardly be useful if you didn't read other Tolkien's works.



Isn't it a joy to be bestowed with knowledge never sought


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## Lantarion (Aug 13, 2002)

Um, Alphack, two whole chapters in the FotR are almost solely about Tom and Goldberry (those chapters being 'In the House of Tom Bombadil' and 'Fog on the Barrow-Downs'. He is first introduced in 'The Old Forest'). If you are wondering, as Buu suggested, about the type of creature these two characters are, then I'm afraid we can only speculate. 
I'm sorry, but I can't see how you could have missed three whole chapters, unless you just flipped through the book. NOT that I'm incinuating anything.. argh! 

Anyway, welcome to the forum! And don't mind the rude people here, we are all a tad unnerved by the amount of obvious question asked by so-called 'Newbies' (being questions to which the answers are found by simply reading the book!). 
And if you have any question after Ancalagon's titanic explanation, then I'm afraid we cannot help you.   j/k (Good job though Anc, yipes!)


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## Anamatar IV (Aug 13, 2002)

i guess i should have asked _what_ are these people.


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## LadyGaladriel (Aug 13, 2002)

Wouldn't we like to know!



Goldberry is however a river womans daughter but have no idea what TB is . I think that TB could be JRR Tolkien himself into the book or just a merry fellow . have you read other tolkien books like for instance the Hobbit?


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## pohuist (Aug 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ancalagon _
> *
> 
> Isn't it a joy to be bestowed with knowledge never sought *



Knowledge may be joy but
Ignorance is a bliss...


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## Lantarion (Aug 14, 2002)

In the words of RatM:
"If ignorance is bliss, then wipe the smile off my face!"


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## pohuist (Aug 14, 2002)

Since I am ignorant, I am allowed to ask -- who the hell is RatM?


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