# What ever happened to Grond?



## Phantom718 (Sep 30, 2019)

Not the battering ram.

But referring to Melkor's mace? Was it ever written anywhere what happened to it after he was defeated? What about Sauron's mace as well, for that matter? And their crowns? 

Were they destroyed? Confiscated and reforged into something else? I was just thinking if they left these items behind after being defeated, what happened to them...


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## Olorgando (Sep 30, 2019)

At least as far as Morgoth's crown goes, on page 303 of 306 of my version of he published Silmarillion, near the end of the 24th and last chapter of the _Quenta Silmarillion_ part there is the following: "Then he was bound with the chain Angainor which he had worn aforetime, *and his iron crown they beat into a collar for his neck*, …".
I don't know if JRRT ever mentioned any weapons wielded by Sauron in his writings. That bit of his wielding a mace may be pure PJ film invention, perhaps inspired by Morgoth's mace Grond. Same for a possible crown of Sauron's. The main use Morgoth had for his crown was to hold the three (then two) Silmarils. They had already badly burned him when he stole them, and he couldn't physically touch them without being burned again.
But as what happened to any weaponry of the evil side, be it the personal weapons of the two Dark Lords or that of their huge armies, JRRT never goes into any such "mopping up" details. Masses of iron weapons and armor could have been of interest to the Dwarves. But as for Grond, it may have been suffused with malice or "accursed", something like Túrin Turambar's black sword Gurthang (ex Anglachel, made by Eöl, father of Maeglin of Gondolin infamy)), whose shards were buried with him. Perhaps Grond was buried deep in Angband in some dungeon which was then caused to collapse on it. Pure speculation.


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## Phantom718 (Sep 30, 2019)

Olorgando said:


> But as for Grond, it may have been suffused with malice or "accursed", something like Túrin Turambar's black sword Gurthang (ex Anglachel, made by Eöl, father of Maeglin of Gondolin infamy)), whose shards were buried with him. Perhaps Grond was buried deep in Angband in some dungeon which was then caused to collapse on it. Pure speculation.



I forgot about his crown being fitted as a collar until you mentioned it.

And that's a great theory about Grond being accursed like Gurthang was. I could easily buy into that. Perhaps that was known, and the weapon was indeed destroyed or buried in the chasms of Angband. It'd be fascinating if it was still down there in the TA/FA .


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## Olorgando (Sep 30, 2019)

Phantom718 said:


> And that's a great theory about Grond being accursed like Gurthang was. I could easily buy into that. Perhaps that was known, and the weapon was indeed destroyed or buried in the chasms of Angband. It'd be fascinating if it was still down there in the TA/FA .


Who knows, might make a nice starting point for a fanfic of whatever sort, or an RPG.
Since I'm not into either genre, I hereby renounce all copyright claims to the idea, so anyone who wants to can have fun with it. 😄


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## Alcuin (Sep 30, 2019)

It isn’t quite the same thing, but the battering ram the Witch-king used (along with orcs and mountain-trolls and “great beasts” to haul it) to beat down the gates of Minas Tirith was named _Grond_ “in memory of the Hammer of the Underworld of old.”


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## Miguel (Sep 30, 2019)

If the hammer wasn't taken away then it must be underwater like the rest of Angband. Udûn, on the other hand, is likely to be underground still depending on how big it was, though some areas might be under the ice bay of Forochel.


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## Phantom718 (Oct 1, 2019)

Miguel said:


> If the hammer wasn't taken away then it must be underwater like the rest of Angband. Udûn, on the other hand, is likely to be underground still depending on how big it was, though some areas might be under the ice bay of Forochel.



Were the ruins of Angband flooded? Or was the fortress just destroyed and turned into rubble? I always imagined what the Rangers or any other folk would find in the TA/FA if they just happened to go visit there for the hell of it like they did with Fornost.


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## Olorgando (Oct 1, 2019)

Phantom718 said:


> Were the ruins of Angband flooded? Or was the fortress just destroyed and turned into rubble? I always imagined what the Rangers or any other folk would find in the TA/FA if they just happened to go visit there for the hell of it like they did with Fornost.


I don't know if JRRT or Christopher ever made any maps that would be useful for a comparison before / after the War of Wrath and the drowning of Beleriand (and surrounding areas, as Beleriand was also in a strict sense reserved for a more restricted area in the First Age than most people realize). So for a guess, I have to rely on Karen Wynn Fonstad's "The Atlas of Middle-earth", of which I have a 1991 revised edition. But she had an MA degree in Geography, specializing in cartography, and was Director of Cartographic Services at the University of Wisconsin–Oshkosh, so she knows about maps. And she was certainly a fan of JRRT's works; and she also produced atlases for four other fantasy worlds.

Going by that, Angband very certainly is under the waters of Belegaer. Makes sense, too, as by any conceivable measure the final confrontation of, and capture of, Morgoth must have been the most devastating upheaval in that war ending the First Age.
Now, if one is prone to wilder flights of fantasy (who, me?!? no way!!! 😜 ) one could combine the concept of "Morgoth's Ring" and Sauron's having to pour "much of [his] strength and will" into his One Ring: Morgoth was already depleted by his excessive dispersion of his power at the end of the First Age, and perhaps Ancalagon the Black, who did cause the host of the West some trouble before Eärendil with his Silmaril took him out (pulverizing Thangorodrim in the process), was his last gasp, projecting the last remnants of his formerly vast (but always finite) power into this monster in the hope of averting defeat without having to get personally involved - Morgoth had become quite a coward by this time.


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## Phantom718 (Oct 1, 2019)

Olorgando said:


> I don't know if JRRT or Christopher ever made any maps that would be useful for a comparison before / after the War of Wrath and the drowning of Beleriand (and surrounding areas, as Beleriand was also in a strict sense reserved for a more restricted area in the First Age than most people realize). So for a guess, I have to rely on Karen Wynn Fonstad's "The Atlas of Middle-earth", of which I have a 1991 revised edition. But she had an MA degree in Geography, specializing in cartography, and was Director of Cartographic Services at the University of Wisconsin–Oshkosh, so she knows about maps. And she was certainly a fan of JRRT's works; and she also produced atlases for four other fantasy worlds.



I stand wholeheartedly corrected.  In the ULTIMATE brainfart, I had confused the location of Angband with Carn Dum---thats the one I was thinking of. Are the ruins of that fortress still there in the TA/FA?

I had completely forgotten where Angband was (its been a LONG couple weeks) and yes, it's certainly underwater. I had often wondered how deep Beleriand actually sunk, since Lindon was still there? Or Numenor? If scuba gear existed in MA, could one do a rec dive and see them?


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## Olorgando (Oct 1, 2019)

Phantom718 said:


> ... I had often wondered how deep Beleriand actually sunk, since Lindon was still there? Or Numenor? If scuba gear existed in MA, could one do a rec dive and see them?


That would probably have been one issue that also had Karen Wynn Fonstad, as a professional geographer and cartographer, scratching her head: assigning to the actions o the Valar things that she knew in the real world to be the effects of plate tectonics - and never mind the divine intervention by Eru in the sinking of Númenor and the flat world made round (something JRRT was dissatisfied with late in life, among other issues he saw, leading him to beging a fairly massive revision of his mythology, now seen by him as a partially garbled "Mannish tradition" - this has been and is being discussed in other threads).

The published Silmarillion is notably silent on dates, especially about the last decades after the Fall of Gondolin, last of the Elven strongholds on Middle-earth to fall. Robert Foster, in his "Complete Guide to Middle-earth", latest edition making reference to source book editions published in 2002, has in it as Appendix A "A Chronology of the First Age." Last "certain" date in it is 511, Fall of Gondolin. Tuor and Idril are surmised to have left Middle-earth c. 543, and Foster assumes the First Age must have come to an end around the year 600. When exactly Eärendil finally made it Valinor, how long the mustering and transfer of the hosts of the West from Valinor to Middle-earth took, and how long (years, perhaps decades) the War of Wrath was then actually fought might be found in scraps hidden in "History of Middle-earth" by Christopher Tolkien, I don't know. But for an area as huge as Beleriand and surroundings, basically everything west of the Blue Mountains which stand on the western shore of Eriador starting with the Second Age, to be sunk certainly has no parallel in actual geological history - unless you go into millions or even tens and hundreds of millions of years. There are places, the best researched ones probably in the Mediterranean. like the port of Alexandria in Egypt in antiquity, which have sunk below sea level by plate tectonics, to depths to be reached by scuba divers, professional underwater archaeologists at least. For Beleriand, there is Tol Morwen, "Morwen's Isle", with the burial mound of Morwen Eledhwen and her son Túrin Turambar, which was not buried under the seas at the End of the First Age but remained above sea level. At the end of the "Akallabeth", fourth part of the published Silmarillion after Ainulindalë, Valaquenta and Quenta Silmarillion there is the statement: "Among the Exiles [from drowned Númenor] many believed that the summit of the Meneltarma, the Pillar of Heaven, was not drowned for ever, bur rose again above the waves …" because of the Hallows of Eru on its peak. Seems to have been a misguided belief, as no on ever found the small island that the summit now formed.


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## Phantom718 (Oct 1, 2019)

The Isle on which Turin is buried with Gurthang is what, in part, made me wonder just how deep Beleriand was buried. Hypothetically speaking (and if scuba gear existed in MA) could one start at the Isle and simply follow it down into the sea whereby the sea floor there is in fact, Beleriand? I think that's plausible. Obviously we're putting theory on top of fantasy on top of history there, but it's somewhat fascinating to think about. The richness and depth in Tolkien's universe always makes me think of things like this.


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