# The most effective instrument of Ulmo, Finrod or Turgon?



## Arvedui (Oct 14, 2003)

> And when again thirty years had passed, Turgon son of Fingolfin left Nevrast where he dwelt and sought Finrod hid friend upon Tol Sirion, and they journeyed southward along the river, being weary for a while of the northern mountains; and as they journeyed night came upon them beyond the Meres of Twilight beside the waters of Sirion, and they slept upon his banks beneath the summer stars. But Ulmo coming up the river laid a deep sleep upon them and heavy dreams; and the trouble of the dreams remained after they awoke, but neither said aught to the other, for their memory was not clear, and each believed that Ulmo had sent a message to him alone. But unquiet was upon them ever after, and doubt of what should befall, and they wandered often alone it untrodden lands seeking far and wide for places of hidden strength; for each was bidden to prepare for a day of evil, and to establish a retreat, lest Morgoth should burst from Angband and overthrow the armies of the North.


_The Silmarillion: Of the Return of the Noldor _ 

*Considering their future kingdoms, and the people that they gathered to themselves. Who was the more effective instrument of Ulmo, in the war against Morgoth, Finrod or Turgon?* 

Another topic from the Debate-Tournament.

Enjoy


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## Celebthôl (Oct 14, 2003)

I recon Turgon, He had a 10,000 strong army in that battle (i forget the name and im to tired to go looking it up right now) which was a MAJOR asset, he saved Húrin and Tuor (i think) which also had repercussions in the good way, he even attempted to gain aid from Valinor (which of course failed but it was still valiant non-the-less). He was the most effective in my view.


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## Húrin Thalion (Oct 17, 2003)

He was saved by Húrin (by me of course, nasty elf didn't dare make a stand) in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, the battle of unnumbered tears. I would say that his actual contribution, purely militarily seen, was very small. In the Nirnaeth, his army went to war but withdrew before it had yet had a real effect upon the battle. When Gondolin at last was forced to fight, it was already too late to harm the dark lord through open war without the help of Valinor. What they did do, was that they were always a threat to the dark lord, a large scrap of doubt in his mind, he knew not where or how strong the people of Turgon were. This forced him to act more cautiously than he would have done otherwise. What Turgon's Gondolin really did was that through Huor's and his house, a new star was lit. That hope was allowed to survive, and then rekindled.

Måns


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## Inderjit S (Oct 18, 2003)

The question is asking if Nargothrond or Gondolin played a greater part in the _Nirnaeth Arnodiad_ but in the war against Morgoth as a whole. 

'Finrod' and Nargothrond are the instigators, naturally, the instigators play the more important part because if it wasn't for the 'instigation' then the events that took place would not take place at all.

I will deal with the Silmaril first, though there are other occasions in which Nargothrond plays the more important part in the fight against Morgoth. The 'Quest of the Silmaril' hinged upon Nargothrond-no Nargothrond=no successful capture of the Silmaril. Why? Well, Nargothrond first of all, acted as a impetus for Beren to at least attempt to achieve his quest, rather then wandering around aimlessly. His visit to Nargothrond eventually lead to the capture and imprisonment of him and his companions by Sauron.

'Nargothrond' was also the place where Curufin and Celegorm fled to after being over-whelmed in the Daggor Bragollach. Celegorm brought with him Huan-without Huan the Quest of the Silmaril would have failed. They also played there part in the Quest, setting up the events so they transpired as they did. Without their interaction the quest would have failed. It also woke up the Silmaril lust in the Fëanorians, which led to the Second and Third Kinslayings, which lead to Elwing meeting Eärendil at the Havens on Sirion, but more importantly it led to the gain of the Silmaril. It also led to the eradication of Sauron from Tol Sirion and the freeing up of that area from evil, for a while. 

Simply, if it wasn't for Nargothrond the Quest of Silmaril would not have succeeded. No Silmaril=no purpose for Turgon. Sure he could live secure in his realm for a while, but ultimately they lost their purpose with the Silmaril. 

Finrod is the one who greets Men to Beleriand. Finrod is the one who gains access for the Haladin to live in Brethil. If the Haladin didn't live in Brethil then Húrin and Huor never would have went to Gondolin or existed, maybe, since their mother, Hareth was a Haladin, but also the reason they went to Gondolin was because they were in Brethil and they were separated from their companions in the Dagor Bragollach. No sojourn in Gondolin by Húrin and Huor has several consequences. Maybe they wouldn't have held the Fen of Serech for Turgon to pass, since they would not have any prior knowledge of the importance of Gondolin and Morgoth would have no real reason to capture Húrin, so he wouldn't have found out where Gondolin was like he did and mayhap Maeglin wouldn't have been captured and thus the Fall of Gondolin may have been delayed, since Morgoth increased his spies there after Húrin’s cries showed him the vicinity whereby Gondolin was located. That 'Tale of Turumbar' would also be non-existent, so there goes one of the most important stories in the History of Arda.


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