# LotR and the crusades



## Húrin Thalion (Oct 25, 2002)

Hi everybody! Just had a little thought, why couldn't ME be an allegory on the crusades? Yes I know that Tolkien said ME was applicable, not an allegory but I was just thinking of it. First the two roman empires (Arnor and Gondor) an then medieval ages begin. sometimes assistance comes from the home countries arrives but it cannot be counted on. The only difference is that there is no Saladin! Just think of the possibility.

My point is that the elves/men situation was pretty similar to the one of the crusaders kingdoms. I think that men are the "usual knights" while elves are Templars and Hospitallers (High elves and grey-elves). Valinor is France, Britain and the Holy Roman Empire (Germany) while Gondor represents the dying Byzantine empire. The men of the east are the Seljuq turks while the Southrons are Mamlukes . On specific events I would say that the battle of Pelennor fields could be a reversed Marj Ayyoun or Horns of Hattin while the last battle could be an imaginary siege of Bagdad. The destroying of the ring may be the assasination of Saladin? Manwë is the pope by the way. But who is Gandalf? I would guess that he is either Arnoldo de Torroja (master of the Templars a few years) or Roger de Moulins (master of the Hospitallers). In my opinion Saruman would have to be either Gèrard de Ridefort (coward master of the Templars), Guy Lusignan (incompetent king in the kingdom of Jerusalem) or Reynald de Chatillon. 

I'm sorry that this message was a little chaotic but I would like to hear if you had anything to say or add!


Elen


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## Galadhwen (Oct 25, 2002)

_Roman_ Arnor and Gondor? Where did that come from?! If me history serves me right the roman empire wasn't divided into a weaker and a stronger section, are you talking about Rohan as the saviour assistancy person?
I can see where you're headed but I don't think the crusades are the right time in history (weren't the crusades the attempt to regain Jerusalem, Robin Hood times?) Gondor definitely did need the help of its allies!


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## ltas (Oct 25, 2002)

Hi and welcome, Elen 

Hmm. I tried to find some parallels between crucades and the events during the LOTR, but I could find any. Nevertheless, your theory sounds interesting, would you like to tell us more about it? 



> _Originally posted by Galadhwen _
> *If me history serves me right the roman empire wasn't divided into a weaker and a stronger section *


Well, it was in the end. The Roman Empire was ruled by the ancient Romans until 395 AD, when the empire was divided into two parts -the Western Roman Empire and the Eastern Roman Empire.


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## Galadhwen (Oct 25, 2002)

OK so I need some more history lessons!


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## Lhunithiliel (Oct 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ltas _
> Well, it was in the end. The Roman Empire was ruled by the ancient Romans until 395 AD, when the empire was divided into two parts -the Western Roman Empire and the* Eastern Roman Empire. *


... which Eastern Roman Empire was in constant fear and wars with the strong at that time Bulgarian State, lying North of it. 

As for the crusades... well, an interesting thought, but could you spare more time as to draw some specific parallels?

And the Rohirrims.... I have on several occasions shared an opinion that the Rohirims, as characters of Tolkien's ME, resemble strikingly :
> in outlook - the Slav people
> by hierarchy order in their kingdom and by the organization of their army, especially their cavallry - the people of the Bulgarians who formed a vast kingdom in 681 AD.

I'll be keeping an eye on this thread as I find it very interesting!


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## Húrin Thalion (Oct 25, 2002)

In that Bulgarian scenario Éotheod must be Either a Gothic people or possibly even the Huns! I have personally always thought of Dunedain as Romans but the eastern roman empire was Greek... The western roman empire had the same symptoms of disease as Arnor, lack of administration , insufficient population and so on.

Elen


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## ltas (Oct 25, 2002)

Well now this comparision is really extraordinary!! The relationship between Elves and Men does indeed in some extent resemble the relationship of the Templars and common knights. I think I will need to refreshen my memory concerning the era of Crucades. I'm sorry to go now.


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## Húrin Thalion (Oct 26, 2002)

I have thought a little mor of this and come to the conclusion that Gandalf must represent Richard the Lionhearted! that means that Saruman must be the German knights who turned to Saladin whenn Barbarossa died.

Elen


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## Rangerdave (Oct 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Elen Carnë _
> *I have thought a little mor of this and come to the conclusion that Gandalf must represent Richard the Lionhearted! that means that Saruman must be the German knights who turned to Saladin whenn Barbarossa died.
> 
> Elen *



Well, if he does, then Gandalf got the short end of the stick. Richard only fought in one campaign and lost.
He was then held ransom by Germanic princes for a number of years while his little brother gave the British a new name for toliets.

Richard is only a glorious king in the eyes of Ivanhoe.

One the concept of Gondor representing Byzantium, remember that Byzantium was sacked by the west in 1204. That hardly looks good for Gondor. 

RD


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## Húrin Thalion (Oct 27, 2002)

Thats a good point but then I would have to see it as a "What if?". Though I have not studied the third*** crusade as much as the two earlier.
Don't the British see Richard as a great king backstabbed by his brother?

Elen
***Byzantium was sacked in the Fourth Cursade, but who's counting
RD


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## ltas (Oct 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Elen Carnë _
> *Don't the British see Richard as a great king backstabbed by his brother?*



Well, as RD already mentioned, Richard I is described as a glorious king only in the romantic stories such as 'Ivanhoe' and 'The Adventures of Robin Hood'. From the historically correct point of view he was... well... a real bastard  

Anyhow, what city would represent Jerusalem? Osgiliath?

<runs again. damm, I need my own computer>


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## Húrin Thalion (Oct 27, 2002)

Yes, it was he who "traded" the true cross for the pleasure of seeing 3000 saracen civilians be butchered at Ayyadieh outside of Saint Jean d'Acre (I admit looking that up ). Anyway I would like to see Gondor play a double part, both as the eastern Roman empire and the kingdom of Jerusalem. I know it's kind of farfetched but it is an interesting theory. That thing with the fourth crusade was only vaguely known by me.

Elen


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## ltas (Oct 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Elen Carnë _
> *Anyway I would like to see Gondor play a double part, both as the eastern Roman empire and the kingdom of Jerusalem. I know it's kind of farfetched but it is an interesting theory. Personally I think that the fault Palestine. That thing with the fourth crusade was only vaguely known by me.*



Hmm... I sort of imagine that 'Jerusalem' should be a a city that has been occupied by the enemy (Minas Morgul for example...).

_Personally I think that the fault Palestine._
Sorry, I didn't quite understand that sentence?


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## Húrin Thalion (Oct 28, 2002)

Oh I'll remove that instantly! 
That Jerusalem thing depends on which crusade your thinking of!

Elen


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