# Was Aragorn right to take the hobbits to Weathertop?



## Snaga (Feb 19, 2006)

This question occurred to me when reading 'A Knife in the Dark' last night. It seems to me that Aragorn had no real purpose in taking the Hobbits to Weathertop, and knew that it was likely that the Nazgul would head for there. He also knew it would be possible to be spotted in the area, since cover was limited. So why did he take them that way? Surely this is horrendous blunder, and even more stupid since Aragorn knew exactly the risk he was running???


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## Annaheru (Feb 19, 2006)

Several points:

1. Aragorn was hoping to find signs of Gandalf
2. It was possible Rangers were in the area
3. If you notice on a map, beyond Amon Sul there's a stretch of open country, crossing this would be unsafe without having some information on what/who's moving around, and they didn't have the supplies to make a long detour

It was a calculated risk, and in my estimate Aragorn was preoccupied by the above, and didn't fully consider what moves the Witch King might make

After all, if you were leading four hobbits on a forced march through the wilderness with wraiths searching for you, and the knowledge that a powerful wizard is MIA, you might not think every detail through either.

Also, the wraiths knew about Amon Sul, so if Aragorn and Co. _had_ bypassed the hill it's possible, even likely, that the wraiths or their horses would have seen/'sensed' them in the lands below, gathered themselves together, and planned an ambush.
In that scenario they'd be even worse off than at Amon Sul because they'd have almost no warning, maybe no fire, and would certainly be facing all 9 wraiths at once.

So IMCO, going to Sul is a defensible decision.


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## Snaga (Feb 20, 2006)

Consider this quote:



> 'That is Weathertop' said Strider. 'The Old Road, which we have left far away on our right, runs to the south of it and passes not far from its foot. We might reach it by noon tomorrow, if we go straight towards it.I suppose we had better do so.'
> 'What do you mean?' asked Frodo.
> 'I mean: when we do get there it is not certain what we will find. It is close to the Road.'
> 'But surely we were hoping to find Gandalf there?'
> 'Yes; but the hope is faint. If he comes this way at all he may not pass through Bree, and so he may not know what we are doing. And anyway, unless by luck we arrive at the almost together, we shall miss one another; it will not be safe for him or us to wait there long. If the Riders fail to find us in the wilderness, they are likely to make for Weathertop themselves. It commands a wide view all around. Indeed, there are many birds and beasts in this country that could see us, as we stand here from that hillhop. Not all the birds are to be trusted, and there are other spies more evil than they are.



Aragorn is basically saying that if they head to Weathertop, it is unlikely they will meet Gandalf, but likely they will run into the Nazgul. And yet he decides to go that way.

Surely the logical thing is to go as far as possible from Weathertop, and not straight towards it?



Annaheru said:


> It was a calculated risk, and in my estimate Aragorn was preoccupied by the above, and didn't fully consider what moves the Witch King might make


. It was badly calculated. He DID consider what moves the Witch King would make, and then ignored what he thought the nazgul would do.



Annaheru said:


> After all, if you were leading four hobbits on a forced march through the wilderness with wraiths searching for you, and the knowledge that a powerful wizard is MIA, you might not think every detail through either.


Well, maybe he should think through every detail!



> Also, the wraiths knew about Amon Sul, so if Aragorn and Co. had bypassed the hill it's possible, even likely, that the wraiths or their horses would have seen/'sensed' them in the lands below, gathered themselves together, and planned an ambush.
> In that scenario they'd be even worse off than at Amon Sul because they'd have almost no warning, maybe no fire, and would certainly be facing all 9 wraiths at once.


At the time he decides to head to Weathertop, they are more than a days march from Amon Sul. Thats a better distance to have between you and the enemy than almost nothing! And if you are worried about being spotted from miles off, surely the thing is to put _more_ distance between you and the enemy, not fewer!

I think Aragorn is completely flawed in his logic.


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## Rover (Feb 21, 2006)

Snaga said:


> At the time he decides to head to Weathertop, they are more than a days march from Amon Sul. Thats a better distance to have between you and the enemy than almost nothing! And if you are worried about being spotted from miles off, surely the thing is to put _more_ distance between you and the enemy, not fewer!


 

If not in the direction Weathertop, in what direction should they have gone?

To reach Rivendell from Bree/Chetwood/Midgewater Marshes, the party _had_ to head east in order to cross the River Mitheithel at The Last Bridge. 

To add context to the passages you've quoted:



LOTR Ch11 "A Knife In The Dark" said:


> "I think," answered Strider slowly, as if he was not quite sure, "I think the best thing is to go as straight eastward from here as we can, to make for the line of hills, not for Weathertop. There we can strike a path I know that runs at their feet; it will bring us to Weathertop from the north and less openly. Then we shall see what we shall see."


 
It's a trade-off IMO - time vs. information vs. chance of encountering Black Riders vs. chance of encountering Gandalf - and accomplished by the route offering the most apparent protection from visual detection.


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## Helcaraxë (Feb 23, 2006)

I don't see how staying in the lowlands would have been any safer. On Weathertop, if they crouched low they couldn't be seen, it gave the advantage of high ground and a good view of any threats. The real blunder was staying visible on the summit for too long. If they had been more cautious things might have turned out differently.


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## DGoeij (Feb 23, 2006)

I have to admit Snaga has a point here. If you put the information in order, it looks like a very bad desiscion indeed.

I wonder if the flashes of light that they had seen a few days before urged Aragorn to investigate WT, despite the danger. Else I can hardly see the reason for him to decide in favor of going there. The mission at hand, getting the Ringbearer to Rivendell, was in serious danger of failing by getting anywhere near the Weathertop. I don't see why that should be risked for finding out about a wizard, who was quite capable of taking care of himself.


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## Annaheru (Feb 23, 2006)

someone needs to explain to me how a man and 4 hobbits who aren't sure if they have enough supplies to reach Imladris travelling by the most direct route, are supposed to reach the valley if _they go around and out of sight of Amon Sul_?

Are they supposed to go North? Aragorn plainly states that he isn't familiar with the land to the North of Imladris. Also he states that all the country North beyond the hills is flat and visible for miles.

Are they supposed to go South? to go South means crossing the road which is not only visible from Amon Sul, but is patrolled by Nazgul.

If they do either, they still have to return to the road to cross the Last Bridge. By going around they give the Witch King (who certainly knows the country) a better chance of cutting them off (they certainly didn't know Elrond was sending out riders).

Given all the variables, knowing they would be in some kind of difficulty no matter what they did, Aragorn chose to gather some information, rather than blunder along blind.
Information is one of the keys to any successful endeavor, and I don't think we can fault Aragorn for trying to gather some in this instance.


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## Snaga (Mar 5, 2006)

Annaheru said:


> someone needs to explain to me how a man and 4 hobbits who aren't sure if they have enough supplies to reach Imladris travelling by the most direct route, are supposed to reach the valley if they go around and out of sight of Amon Sul?
> 
> Are they supposed to go North? Aragorn plainly states that he isn't familiar with the land to the North of Imladris. Also he states that all the country North beyond the hills is flat and visible for miles.
> 
> Are they supposed to go South? to go South means crossing the road which is not only visible from Amon Sul, but is patrolled by Nazgul.


It is true that the land to the east of the Weather Hills does not give good cover. In fact, heading south along the line of the Hills (along the path described in the quote given by Rover), crossing the road and heading into the thickets to the south is what Aragorn chooses to do.

So Annaheru, you are in fact yourself criticising Aragorn!

It seems to me that Aragorn has, at the point he turns south towards Amon Sul, has got them to a point where he has no good choices. Pretty poor forward planning. I wonder if they wouldn't have been better setting out south of the road from Bree?

Nevertheless, I still think if they are already a days march from Weathertop, going further north and then heading east takes them further from spying eyes and further from danger, and makes more sense than going to where you know the danger is greatest.



Helcaraxë said:


> I don't see how staying in the lowlands would have been any safer. On Weathertop, if they crouched low they couldn't be seen, it gave the advantage of high ground and a good view of any threats. The real blunder was staying visible on the summit for too long. If they had been more cautious things might have turned out differently.


Afraid I don't buy this. Although they were clearly reckless on Weathertop, actually they were lucky that the Nazgul weren't waiting for them on the summit. And even if they were careful, what then? They would have learned they can't cross the road because the Nazgul are patrolling, so what then? They have come to dead end. At this point there is almost no chance of avoiding the Nazgul.


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## Eriol (Mar 5, 2006)

There are two constraints that regulate Aragorn's decisions: cover and supplies. There is, as I see it (based on the scant geographical information available), no way to cater to both. 

(Which is why the whole race to Rivendell is so dramatic, after all ).

If we assume that crossing the road always involves some danger, this does not help much because the paths which do not cross the road can be ruled out from the beginning. South of the road, there is no cover for miles between Bree and Weathertop (at least there is nothing like Midgewater there). North of the road wouldn't do with their short supplies. 

All in all, I think that the _route_ taken by Aragorn is quite good. The questionable decision is to _climb_ Weathertop, rather than staying under cover and trying to cross the road when possible. I think that Aragorn only climbed the hill because of the fireworks seen there earlier, he hoped to find a sign of Gandalf (or perhaps even Gandalf there, waiting for them. A crazy hope, perhaps, but he is Estel, after all ).


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## Ingwë (Mar 20, 2006)

I think the real mistake was setting fire to the Weathertop. Aragorn was there but he didn’t calculate the risk of the fire. 
_‘Keep close to the fire, with your faces outward!’ cried Strider. ‘Get some of the longer sticks ready in your hands’ _
That fire made him discernible and that was _The Mistake. _

_I think that Aragorn only climbed the hill because of the fireworks seen there earlier, he hoped to find a sign of Gandalf__._
Aragorn and the hobbits saw fire on the Weathertop. They saw Gandalf fighting the Nazgul so Strider was sure that the Nazgul are near, probably on the hill itself. Why did he decide to go there? That wasn’t good idea. Even Gandalf would leave the hill and go to Rivendell. The wizard wouldn’t stay there because he knew that the Nazgul will gather to the hill and even he couldn’t withstand when they’re together
Why did Aragorn go to Amon Sul? To seek traces? And how will they help him? Ok, Aragorn realized that Gandalf was there a few days earlier and so what? 
October 3, 3018 – Gandalf is attacked at night on Weathertop
October 6, 3018 – The camp under Weathertop attacked at night. Frodo wounded
Aragorn arrived three days later, so when they saw the fireworks they were far from the hill. So Strider knew that he will not find anybody. 
_I don't see why that should be risked for finding out about a wizard, who was quite capable of taking care of himself._
Well, the wizard is very important, indeed. But he is not that stupid to stay on Weathertop for a long while to wait for somebody, even Aragorn and the Ringbearer.


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## Helcaraxë (Mar 20, 2006)

Snaga, the Nazgul could have been waiting anywhere. Your argument could be applied to any place they could possibly go. At least on Weathertop they had a long view of approaching danger and the advantage of high ground.


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## Eriol (Mar 21, 2006)

Ingwë said:


> Well, the wizard is very important, indeed. But he is not that stupid to stay on Weathertop for a long while to wait for somebody, even Aragorn and the Ringbearer.



Aragorn hoped to find a token, or perhaps even a message, which could help him. Perhaps Gandalf had managed to leave directions . It would be good to know that "Gandalf is waiting hidden in the 5th hill from Weathertop", or something like that. 

It can be argued that this hope was a stretch, but it does sound like hindsight to me; a mistake rather than a blunder.


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## DGoeij (Mar 23, 2006)

Eriol said:


> It can be argued that this hope was a stretch, but it does sound like hindsight to me; a mistake rather than a blunder.



I agree on the term mistake. It's not like he went along against all better judgment or something. Being an armchair warrior/strategist, I love the benefit of hindsight. But had Aragorn been alone, I feel running this risk wasn't so bad. But in this case, he was escorting the hobbits, among them the Ringbearer. Not a position to run risks like these, IMHO.


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## Snaga (Mar 25, 2006)

Well, a blunder is surely just a large magnitude mistake? I think this is a major error, since it is not just a case of 20/20 hindsight. After all, as my earlier post showed, Aragorn foresaw the problems of going to Weathertop and went anyway.

I don't agree, Ingwe, that Aragorn went to Weathertop after connecting the lights on the hill with Gandalf. This connection is only made once they reach Weathertop and Aragorn sees the burn marks, and the scratches on the stone. In any case, what really is the point in going somewhere that Gandalf was at 3 days ago? Aragorn is clear that waiting anywhere would be perilous for Gandalf as well as for them. So had he made the connection, he would have had to conclude that Gandalf would not have been there still.

As to your point about fire - I think this is mistaken. They don't start a fire on Weathertop, but in the dell nearby AFTER they have already been discovered.

Helcaraxë: I can't agree with your point. Weathertop is singled out by Aragorn as a place that the Nazgul would make for. This is said about anywhere else. The long view of approaching danger is no use if you cannot escape from it. And high ground would not avail them: Aragorn did not try to fight of the Nazgul in a siege. Even Gandalf could not do this for long. Once Aragorn found the Nazgul were near, he left the high ground immediately.

Anyway, Eriol... I guess we are without good information about the extent of cover south of the road between Bree and Weathertop. If there WAS cover, that would be the better route. I wonder if there is anything in UT about this? Maybe I'll look...


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## Helcaraxë (Mar 26, 2006)

But they didn't intend to stay directly on the summit for long. That was Aragorn's blunder. The Nazgul could sense the ring. They knew it was near. Just because the Nazgul would make for Weathertop does not mean they intended to acutally climb up the hill. My guess would be that the Nazgul knew the general area of the ring but could not pinpoint it exactly.


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