# Balrog and Balin



## HLGStrider (May 22, 2003)

This is a companion thread to the what woke up the Balrog thread Ithy started for us. . .

When Ballin's colony in Moria was destroyed did the Balrog have anything to do with it?

I always thought he would've. The end of the colony seemed so spooky, like something from a horror movie and the drums and everything made it seem a lot like what happened to the Fellowship. . .however, there is no direct mention of the creature, and everyone in Ithy's thread seems to be saying that Mr. Balrog was sleeping or at least inactive at the time and it was just his Orc cronies. . .

If he was sleeping, why was he roused by just the Fellowship and not by the Dwarves scurrying around in his attic?


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## Celebthôl (May 22, 2003)

ooops i voted for the wrong one, blast, yes i think the Balrog did have somthing to do with it, it was always present, and it was always awake wasnt it but i think that Orcs were the main trouble for Balín and Co....hey Elgee are we the only ones on tonight or sumthing?


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## HLGStrider (May 22, 2003)

You can get a mod to edit your vote for you. . .

Thomas Baggins and Eriol were on awhile back, but I haven't seen them in about five minutes. . .

It just seems strange that this powerful creature wouldn't have wanted in on the fight. You have a Balrog, use him or lose him.


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## Celebthôl (May 22, 2003)

I cant find me FOTR right now, but im pretty sure that there was somthing about the Balrog in the book that Gandalf reads from, it mentions it, thought im not 100% sure


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## HLGStrider (May 22, 2003)

The only references to it I can think of are vague and could be anything. Something about something moving in the shadows and the drums. The shadow could be anything. The drums could be just an orc thing, but I always thought it was the symbollic way to call on their friend the Balrog. . .
THIS IS POST NUMBER 4,000!
Scarier than Balrogs are the posts of Elgee.


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## Eriol (May 22, 2003)

Yes, I'm here, but I could not vote in this poll, and I have no idea why. The vagaries of computers...

I remember that someone (Óri?) was caught by the Watcher in the Water, but I think it is the only allusion to anything other than orcs. I'll have to check that. 

Anyway, the Dwarves worked for 5 years there, if the Balrog was in any way active he would have noticed. I don't think he was aware. This is another argument for a link between the Balrog and Sauron, by the way -- apparently the Balrog only visited the higher levels of Moria when the Fellowship was there, while a bunch of Dwarves worked for 5 years (!) without being molested. It seems the Balrog was warned by something or someone. If we reject the "Maiar sensitivity" (and I do reject it) communication by Sauron seems most likely.

EDIT: Hey! I can vote now! Weird... 

I voted for (c). Though you could sell (b) to me easily.


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## HLGStrider (May 22, 2003)

Well, if not, that leads up to another question. Why _were_ the dwarves allowed five years of free reign? Why didn't the orcs act sooner? Why after five years was it suddenly so important to rid Moria of Orcs? 

Was Sauron growing more powerful and extending his rule? Was he trying to ensure that he owned most of the passes to Gondor? Did he send the Orcs on this hunting party and in that case did he also get the Balrog on his side at this time, just in case?

If so, maybe the Balrog was involved but as a minion of Sauron.


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## FrankSinatra (May 23, 2003)

*Well*

Balin was killed when an orc shot him from behind a stone whilst he was walking in the dale.

Personally, i always thought the drums signified something to do with the balrog, so i would say yes.


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## Celebthôl (May 23, 2003)

*Re: Well*



> _Originally posted by FrankSinatra _
> *Balin was killed when an orc shot him from behind a stone whilst he was walking in the dale. *



teehee, pretty small Orc id say to be able to hide behind a stone


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## Lantarion (May 23, 2003)

LOL 
A little one that shot toothpicks at Balin's legs. Teehee.

But well placed quote there, guys. 
And anyway, if the Balrog had killed Balin I think he would've done a lot more damage at the same time, and therefore the other mourning Dwarves wouldn't have had time to bury Balin in a tomb.


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## Eriol (May 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> *Well, if not, that leads up to another question. Why were the dwarves allowed five years of free reign? Why didn't the orcs act sooner? Why after five years was it suddenly so important to rid Moria of Orcs?
> 
> Was Sauron growing more powerful and extending his rule? Was he trying to ensure that he owned most of the passes to Gondor? Did he send the Orcs on this hunting party and in that case did he also get the Balrog on his side at this time, just in case?
> ...



I guess this can be tied to Gandalf's comment that after the Battle of Five Armies the Misty Mountains were mostly cleared of Orcs. They were slowly regaining their footholds, from the North down, but he hoped that no Orcs would be found in Moria. Well, his calculations were wrong by a few years. 

As I see it the Dwarves found a deserted Moria and were expelled by the waves of Orcs migrating from the North. No need for a deep-seated Sauron connection. However, the absence of the Balrog from the proceedings is startling, and indicates that the Big Guy only showed up very rarely in the higher levels. And if so, the question remains, why would he investigate a stone dropped by a hobbit when he could sleep so well with the big noise of a Dwarven colony?

It all points to a Sauron-Balrog connection.

(I sound like the guy from 60 minutes).


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## Ithrynluin (May 23, 2003)

If the Balrog had been involved, why wasn't it mentioned in the book of Mazarbul?

I don't think the Balrog was involved here at all.

Aulë, I'd advise you to post a link instead of copying the whole thing without giving the source. It might be considered as copyright infringement.

Plus, all these lengthy posts really *really* interfere with the flow of discussion in this thread. I deleted them and left only the one that includes the link to the site.


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## Aulë (May 23, 2003)

Here's a good fanfic on what could have happened during Balin's quest:

http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~jchance/brown.html


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## HLGStrider (May 23, 2003)

I admit that he wasn't killed by the Balrog. . .my writing overcame my logic in the title, I wanted the title to be 'clever.' 
What I was suggesting was that he was in on the final kill. It just seems strange to me that he wouldn't be.


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## Aulë (May 24, 2003)

Whoever deleted all my posts could have at least made it clear about what my remaining post was talking about   

Can't you edit it?
And there's really no reason to get mad, unless you want me to tell you how posting so many posts can be considered spamming.
- ithryn


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