# How powerful is Sauron?



## Úlairi

I have come up against quite a many arguments as to how powerful Sauron actually is. So people have your say. We know that Sauron was a Maia, making him quite powerful already. Not to mention that he was of the top order of the Maia of Aule. Also, when Sauron was under the service of Morgoth, he was given even more power. He was responsible for the downfall of Numenor, the demise of Elendil, Gil-galad, and Felagund and nearly Beren, Luthien and Huan (the hound of the valar). He had enough power to return from the depths of the sea, to come back after being defeated and to make a ring powerful enough to corrupt other Maia. So, how powerful is Sauron? What, more powerful than Eonwe, Melian or Osse? 
Fair answers people. And just because Sauron's a bad guy, do not let that affect your answers.


----------



## Beleg Strongbow

> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *I have come up against quite a many arguments as to how powerful Sauron actually is. So people have your say. We know that Sauron was a Maia, making him quite powerful already. Not to mention that he was of the top order of the Maia of Aule. Also, when Sauron was under the service of Morgoth, he was given even more power. He was responsible for the downfall of Numenor, the demise of Elendil, Gil-galad, and Felagund and nearly Beren, Luthien and Huan (the hound of the valar). He had enough power to return from the depths of the sea, to come back after being defeated and to make a ring powerful enough to corrupt other Maia. So, how powerful is Sauron? What, more powerful than Eonwe, Melian or Osse?
> Fair answers people. And just because Sauron's a bad guy, do not let that affect your answers. *




Yes well how do YOU define power as for osse, eonwe and melian. I think not. Sauron at his height couldn't get into doriath. He wasn't strong enouth. Sorry but i'm busy post later.


----------



## Lantarion

Sauron was powerful among the Maiar, but it clearly states in the Silmarillion that Eönwë was the most powerful of the Maiar, and the greatest in might of arms. Ossë was a Vala, so she was most definately more powerufl than Sauron. Melian was less powerful than Eönwë, of course, but she was probably the most powerful Maia in Middle-Earth at the time of the War of the Jewels. 
Sauron was more powerful than, say, the Istari. But I personally think the Istari could have killed Sauron, if at least three (and even better with all 5) of them would have come up against him and fried his noodle. But this was not possible at the time of the WR (War of the Ring), because of Saruman's treachery and Radagast's lack of powers and love of nature.


----------



## Eonwe

also the Istari were forbidden to match power against power, if you allow quotes from the Sil and UT.

Sauron's might was probably greater than Eonwe, Melian and Osse in creating devices, and in his ability to persuade with words. But his inherent power, and other facets of his power (like the ability of Melian to shield Doriath from Morgoth, and the ability of Eonwe to fight) were less than other Maia. He is like Saruman (another great Maia of Aule) who can rig up explosives, siege engines, make a ring that has inherent power, and these things Eonwe and Melian and Osse would never be capable of.

So its hard to compare bad apples to oranges, if you get my drift.


----------



## Rohirim

i have to admit that Sauron was the one who created 'the one ring', which was "one ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them". this was when he was in his original form, although if it weren't for saruman he would not have had such a big army, "build me an army worth of mordor".


----------



## Lantarion

"Build me an army worthy of Mordor" is a quote from one of the films, not from the book (unless I'm quite mistaken), so I woulodn't use that as backup. 
But you're partly right, Saruman did contribute to Sauron's conquest of Middle-earth, though Sauron only actually used Saruman as a puppet and captain, not as an ally.
Also, Sauron's creation of the One Ring is something I believe all Maiar could do, in principle. Sauron (calling himself _Annatar_) learned the art of smithying originally from Aulë, I would guess, but he also gained probably vital knowledge from the Gwaith-i-Mírdain of Eregion. This Elven/Maian skill in the technical side, in addition to his Maian 'powers' of controlling energy etc. together were what enabled him to craft the unique artefact that stored in it a part of Sauron's own spirit.


----------



## Flame of Udûn

Lantarion said:


> Ossë was a Vala, so she was most [definitely] more [powerful] than Sauron.


I'm surprised that you would think Ossë was a Valië, when _he_ is in fact a Maia.


----------



## Narsil

A lot of Sauron's power was bound up in the ring itself. That's why it was so vital to him that he get it back and so vital to Middle Earth that he _not_ get it. I don't think he was nearly as powerful as he could've been had he once again regained possession of the ring. 



> And much of the strength and will of Sauron passed into that One Ring



So the fact that he didn't have it at all proved to be a big advantage. When he possessed the ring Sauron was quite powerful..



> He took up again the great Ring and clothed himself in power; and the malice of the Eye of Sauron few even of the great among Elves and Men could endure.



When Sauron did have the ring during the Second Age it took the Last Alliance of Elves and Men, a siege that lasted 7 years and the deaths of Gil-galad and Elendil to finally bring Sauron down. It's safe to assume that had the ring not been cut from his hand and lost he would've been much stronger and wreaked even more havoc during the Third Age. 

When the ring was indeed destroyed at the end of the Third Age it was enough to destroy Sauron...



> Then Sauron failed, and he was utterly vanquished and passed away like a shadow of malice; and the towers of Barad-dur crumbled in ruin



For all this though he wasn't close to being as strong as his master, Morgoth. It took an incredible army of Valar, Elves and Men and destruction of Middle Earth to bring Morgoth down. I don't think this was as necessary with Sauron..but I do think things could've been a lot bloodier if Sauron had indeed had his ring, especially since there wasn't a great alliance of Elves and men and there had been a marked decline in the strength of men during the Third Age.


----------



## Ingwë

Sauron is a Maiar of Aulë and as a Maiar he is very powerful. He join the "dark side" with Melkor and he begin more powerful. He become very powerful when he create The One ring.


----------



## Aglarband

I don't think how powerful Sauron was mattered. It seems his cheif weapon was FEAR, as shown through the Nazgul and his tactics with his Mouth. How powerful Sauron was by the time of LOTR didn't matter that much. Sure he had a vastly superior number of forces, but as we all know Orcs are pretty stupid and not very good fighters. Fear is possibly the best way to measure Sauron's power.

He was by no means even close to Morgoth. Morgoth had Balrogs and Dragons, heck Morgoth created (more or less) Trolls and Orcs, the major part of Sauron's forces. But Sauron was easily greater than the men of the West. No two ways about it.


----------



## Ishtoffor

I'd have to agree: fear.

Sauron's power was in the ability to corrupt, to make people think that they could achieve/deserve more. That basic lust is what drew Orcs, trolls, evil Men, etc. To him. The fear of facing destruction by these forces made Sauron powerful.

Also (eg Aragorn II) the fear of being corrupted. I think there's a slight isolationism theme going on here. The uncanny power Sauron had to take your will (Frodo, Boromir, Wormtongue via Saruman, etc.)
???


----------



## Snaga

To debate this issue is to accept a basic calculus of power, as being expressed as the ability to wage war. But others have power. The power of counsel, the power of friendship, the power to create. In these things Sauron lost much of the power he would have had before turning to evil.

But if you want to consider the power of Sauron as his ability to gain dominion over others, then this is a relative thing: his power is relative to those who would contest it. In this case, his power seemed strongest at the end of the Third Age, where strength of arms could not prevail as they did at the end of the Second Age. At this point we know his power was stronger than all the other Maia in Middle Earth, and to measure him against the maia of the west is futile, since they were not contesting with him.


----------



## Nazgul Officer

I have to agree with the fact that FEAR was Sauron's advantage. As i stated in the section on 'how powerful the ring is'? I said that the ring is just a psychological power that when brought into the hands of anyone, such as men, it has a psychological affect upon that person. Answering the question of this section, it is quite hard to say...can we just say that evil is weaker than the good.


----------



## scotsboyuk

@Nazgul Officer

One could interpret what you are saying as meaning that Sauron is really only as powerful as people perceive him to be. If people are in fear of him then they impart power to him, they give him authority over themselves by allowing him to dominate them. However, if one stands against Sauron and dispells that fear, he is much diminsished in his power.

Of course this theory is more practical at certain points than at others, but I believe the essence of it to be fundamentally true. Fear, it would seem to me, is the greatest enemy throughout Tolkien's works. It is fear that the Dark Lords use to dominate others and ultimately they are fearful creatures themselves.


----------



## Meselyn

Sauron was powerful. Though only to an extent. I mean, if he couldn't defeat Gondor, and Rohan. Then he wasn't really powerful.


----------



## Manwe

But the main reason Saurons armies were defeated on Pelennor was that the orcs became afraid of the men not the men being afraid of the orcs, this took away the power they had gained by catapulting the heads of the men and Grond. Sauron could defeat Rohan and Gondor and he was about to when they were fighting at the Gate, the only reason the men of Gondor and Rohan were not defeated was because the Ring was destroyed. If there is any weak part of Sauron it is that he put too much of his power into the Ring and therefore gave his enemies a chance to destroy him through its destruction.


----------



## Meselyn

Yeah that's true. Sauron tied his power to the ring. So I guess the closer it got to mordor. The more powerful it got.


----------



## Nazgul Officer

It shows also that Sauron must not have been at all that powerful because of his use in Saruman. Would Sauron have been able to dominate Middle Earth without Saruman...maybe Sauron was not just going to use Saruman as his puppet but use him as an ally. It does show that Sauron cannot dominate middle earth without help of others, this could have been because he could not take physical form during the third age. What you all think?


----------



## Ceorl

With any of the Ainur I like to think of their power as skill points from an RPG, that you earn when you level, only for the Ainur, these points are inherent, and they aer able to assign these power points to different things. Morgoth, it is said in the Sil, spent alot of his power on instilling fear in his servants and enemies, and as such lost alot of power, whereas wiser Valie might have spent there's in more productive ways, such as Aule using them on crafting and such.

However in UT there is a section which tells alot about relative powers. When selecting those who would be the Istari, Manwe said:



> 'For they must be mighty, peers of Sauron'



which tells us that they were originally(before clothed in bodies of men) if not as powerful, then nearly as powerful as Sauron. Gandalf concedes that he was not as powerful as Saruman, thus we can assume that if the dilution of power was equal, that Olorin was less powerful than Curumo. 

However when Manwe asked Olorin to go as the third Istari it is said:



> 'But Olorin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron.'



Therefore Olorin was weaker than Curumo as well as Sauron, although Manwe had said that he would send only peers of Sauron, which means that Olorin could only have been slightly less powerful than Sauron, So it is perfectly conceivable that Curumo was as powerful, originally, as Sauron. This could explain a little of Saruman's desire to confront Sauron directly against his original orders.


----------



## Grond

Snaga said:


> To debate this issue is to accept a basic calculus of power, as being expressed as the ability to wage war. But others have power. The power of counsel, the power of friendship, the power to create. In these things Sauron lost much of the power he would have had before turning to evil.
> 
> But if you want to consider the power of Sauron as his ability to gain dominion over others, then this is a relative thing: his power is relative to those who would contest it. In this case, his power seemed strongest at the end of the Third Age, where strength of arms could not prevail as they did at the end of the Second Age. At this point we know his power was stronger than all the other Maia in Middle Earth, and to measure him against the maia of the west is futile, since they were not contesting with him.


Well, my books (and e-books) are at home in Louisiana. I am now living in Dallas (at a new job) and haven't looked in here for quite a while. I do seem to remember that The Silmarillion very clearly states that Sauron (even being but a Maiar) came to be the most powerful being in Arda (save for his dark master). I doubt that any other Maiar save for Saruman (another vassal of Aule) would have been able to directly vie with Sauron even had they been free to do so. I'll look up my books when I get home and do a better job of addressing this.

Cheers,

grond


----------



## Masso

Úlairi said:


> I have come up against quite a many arguments as to how powerful Sauron actually is. So people have your say. We know that Sauron was a Maia, making him quite powerful already. Not to mention that he was of the top order of the Maia of Aule. Also, when Sauron was under the service of Morgoth, he was given even more power. He was responsible for the downfall of Numenor, the demise of Elendil, Gil-galad, and Felagund and nearly Beren, Luthien and Huan (the hound of the valar). He had enough power to return from the depths of the sea, to come back after being defeated and to make a ring powerful enough to corrupt other Maia. So, how powerful is Sauron? What, more powerful than Eonwe, Melian or Osse?
> Fair answers people. And just because Sauron's a bad guy, do not let that affect your answers.


 
It says in the Silmarillion that nothing is as powerful as the Valar so he can't defeat Manwe or Morgoth, his comander. He is a Maia like the the istari evan though he was given power by Morgoth, Saroman the white was given power as well. Head of the istari and of the wise. So whose to say (exept Tolkien) that if Saroman had made the one ring that he would be more powerful than Sauron.


----------



## Arvedui

It is also said somewhere that Sauron was "lesser" than Morgoth only in that he for a while served another and not himself.
I think that it can be found in _HoMe X/Morgoth's Ring - Myths Transformed_.


----------



## Ceorl

> It says in the Silmarillion that nothing is as powerful as the Valar so he can't defeat Manwe or Morgoth, his comander. He is a Maia like the the istari evan though he was given power by Morgoth, Saroman the white was given power as well. Head of the istari and of the wise. So whose to say (exept Tolkien) that if Saroman had made the one ring that he would be more powerful than Sauron.



Saruman wasn't given power when he was made an istar, he actually lost alot of his inherent power and knowledge, as did all the istari. See chapter 2 of part four of UT for a complete explanation.



> It is also said somewhere that Sauron was "lesser" than Morgoth only in that he for a while served another and not himself. I think that it can be found in HoMe X/Morgoth's Ring - Myths Transformed.



I cannot find this quote, but I am pretty certain I remember it as having read that Sauron was less _evil_ than Morgoth only in that he for a while served another and not himself. At the same time I can't remember the Sil saying Sauron was the most powerful being in Arda, and to be honest I find it fairly unlikely. Perhaps it meant Middle-Earth?


----------



## Meselyn

I so have to read "The Similarion". Anyway, I know morgoth was Saurons master. Though Sauron can't be more powerful than him. Can he?


----------



## Arvedui

Ceorl said:


> At the same time I can't remember the Sil saying Sauron was the most powerful being in Arda, and to be honest I find it fairly unlikely. Perhaps it meant Middle-Earth?


Yes, silly me. It was (and is) of course Middle-earth.
This is what is written in _Myths Transformed, Notes on Motives in The Silmarillion_:


> Sauron was 'greater', effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First.


 And it goes on to say (amongst other things) that Sauron had *much more limited power*.


BTW, good to see you around again, Ceorl!


----------



## scotsboyuk

Power is a subjective term, very much dependent upon the context, in which it used.

Are we discussing Sauron's power in battle and his ability to wage war? To use an example from the real world, Nazi Germany looked to be all powerful in 1940 when it had conquered most of Europe, defeated France and driven the British armies back across the Channel. However, that 'power' was overturned when the Allies had time to regroup and launch counter-attacks.

In LOTR we see Sauron's armies (including Saruman's armies) defeating all before them, invading Rohan and driving the people of Rohan from Edoras. The situation looks hopeless, but, like Nazi Germany, that apparent power is overturned and defeated.

Sauron's army are on the verge of victory at the Black Gate, yet their power is nullified when the One Ring is destroyed.

If we are talking of personal power then we have to have something to measure that power against. Who is the most powerful, Sauron or Frodo? Sauron didn't manage to conquer Middle Earth or to retrieve the One Ring. Frodo did manage to get to Mount Doom and overcome inumerable obstacles in the process.

For me, the term power is an illusionary one. I see Tolkien as having written a story, in which power is meaningless because even the 'gratest' can be undone by the 'smallest'.As I said before, I see Suaron as having as much power as his enemies choose to give him. Denethor is a weak man who lacks the 'fight' of Gandalf, he therefore grants Sauron power over him, Gandalf does not because he refuses to submit.


----------



## Ceorl

Of course we, could discuss the intricacies of power and its forms, both obvious and subtle, until the cows do come home, however more productive would be to assign a way in which power can be effectively measured between individuals.

If you were to compare mental toughness or force of will, such as that applied by Aragorn to wrest control of the Palantir from Sauron, then that I would define as one's _inherent_ power, that we saw also when Glorfindel revealed himself to the Rinhwraiths by the Ford of Bruinen. Such power is used for contests of will and the like, and is also subject to the laws governing the form in which it takes; i.e when using the Palantir Aragorn has an advantage as the right or legal owner of the stone, I would never say that he was stronger than Sauron in inherent power.

Magical power, such as Luthien used to overcome Sauron and then Morgoth himself, takes many forms and as Galadriel rightly says, our language is not adequate to describe the varying forms of magic. Some forms involve song such as that of the Ainur and Luthien, or else Gandalf's fireworks. Magic power is strongly associated with inherent power, yet is more affected by the circumstances under which it is performed, and can be enhanced or altered by items, such as the rings.

The power to wage war, is perhaps the most tangible power, and can indeed be enhanced by any other powers. In terms of waging war I would say that Sauron was not as powerful as Morgoth was before the last battle, as all the hosts of the Noldor and their allies could not defeat him, nor even contain him within the siege of Thangorodrim.

It must be remembered that all these powers are interconnected, and all have an effect on the others. It is also not always easy to distinguish between different sorts of power, and many more accurate or convenient definitions of power could likely be discerned, however I have taken a stab at the incomprehensible and hopefully not fallen to far from the mark.

Good to see you too Arvedui!


----------



## Helcaraxë

Beleg Strongbow said:


> Yes well how do YOU define power as for osse, eonwe and melian. I think not. Sauron at his height couldn't get into doriath. He wasn't strong enouth. Sorry but i'm busy post later.



Ossë and Eonwë, certainly not. But Melian? Remember that Beren got through Doriath (not via his own power, though), and certainly Beren is not as powerful as Sauron. Melkor during the WotJ also did not breach Doriath. 

Sauron was one of the strongest Maiar; I would say he was probably second or third.


----------



## Annaheru

fact: Sauron was a maia of the order of Aule
Therefore Sauron's power was not in war, but in art, in his case Sorcery. The Sil tells us that he was "a sorcerer of dreadfull power, master of shadows and of phantoms, foul in wisdom, cruel in strength. . ." ~Of the ruin of Beleriand
He lost in a fight with Haun, but Melian had her "sorcery" (pardon the expression) pierced by a mere mortal, Beren. 
fact: Sauron was Morgoth's greatest servant
Early on in Sil we are told that many maia, great and small, joined Morgoth. Sauron, as the greatest of these would have been very high up on the list of Maia, maybe one of the ones who were almost as powerfull as the Valar. There is no question that he was more powerfull than Osse. Remember Osse was at one point one of Morgoth's servants, and Sauron was Morgoth's greatest servant. Therefore he was greater than Osse
When talking about Sauron in the third age we need to remember that he had already made the same mistake as Morgoth: putting some of his own 'being' into an object of his own creation (the ring). saruman in his "weak" role as an Istari was no real match for Sauron in his twice weakened condition. Not anly had Sauron put more than 50% of his essence into the ring, but he had to use a great part of what he had left in order to assume a physical form after the destruction of his body in Numenor, yet he could still compel Saruman to use the phalantir.
Sumation: Sauron was probably the greatest Maia (that Tolkien tells us of )as far as ability. He would have been no match for Eonwe in a literal fight, and his power was eventually destroyed through evil, but in his beginning he was most likely a smaller version of Morgoth- greatest among equals


----------



## scotsboyuk

@Annaheru

I broadly agree with you and I would like to add that Sauron was at his most powerful when he was able to manipulate people. We have more than one account from Tolkien of Sauron being defeated in open combat e.g. when the Numenoreans invade and take Sauron prisoner and when Isildur strikes at him with Narsil; just imagine what Eonwe would do to him! Sauron's greatest power would seem to be his ability to trick and manipulate others into doing his bidding e.g. tricking the Elves into creating the Rings; manipulating the Numenoreans into invading Valinor.


----------



## Arvedui

scotsboyuk said:


> We have more than one account from Tolkien of Sauron being defeated in open combat e.g. when the Numenoreans invade and take Sauron prisoner


Keep in mind that Sauron's captivity was voluntarily. He saw the possibility of destroying Númenor from within, and that is just what he did.


scotsboyuk said:


> just imagine what Eonwe would do to him! Sauron's greatest power would seem to be his ability to trick and manipulate others into doing his bidding e.g. tricking the Elves into creating the Rings; manipulating the Numenoreans into invading Valinor.


I frankly can't imagine Eonwë doing very much at all!
Remember that when Sauron slipped away after the War of Wrath, Eonwë did very little (if anything) to find him. More than Sauron was a pawn of Morgoth, Eonwë was one of of Manwë.


----------



## scotsboyuk

Arvedui said:


> I frankly can't imagine Eonwë doing very much at all!
> Remember that when Sauron slipped away after the War of Wrath, Eonwë did very little (if anything) to find him. More than Sauron was a pawn of Morgoth, Eonwë was one of of Manwë.


 
One must remember that this is a work of fiction, it doesn't always follow set rules. If Tolkien had had Eonwe, or anyone else for that matter, capture Sauron after the War of Wrath, then one imagines that LOTR wouldn't be the story it is.


----------



## Annaheru

> Keep in mind that Sauron's captivity was voluntarily. He saw the possibility of destroying Númenor from within, and that is just what he did.


 
Actually, the Akallabeth says that Sauron's armies ran and hid themselves because they were overawed by the military might of Numenor. Sauron just showed his intelligence by turning a very embarrasing situation into a one he could manipulate.



> Remember that when Sauron slipped away after the War of Wrath, Eonwë did very little (if anything) to find him. More than Sauron was a pawn of Morgoth, Eonwë was one of of Manwë.


 
Not a pawn, that's the difference between good and evil in Tolkien's mythos- Eonwe was obedient to a higher power. If Manwe didn't tell him to capture Sauron then he had no business doing it on his own. If Eonwe didn't have the authority to forgive Sauron (when he gave himself up), then he certainly didn't have the authority to chase him when he was supposed to be overseeing the protection of the Silmarils (whoever he chose for that job wasn't very good though. . .).


----------



## Arvedui

From _HoME X - Morgoth's Ring/Myths transformed_:


> It may be noted that Sauron's first defeat was achieved by the Númenóreans alone (*though Sauron was not in fact overthrown personally: his 'captivity' was voluntary and a trick*)


I think that should explain my meaning when stating that Sauron's captivity was voluntarily.



> Not a pawn, that's the difference between good and evil in Tolkien's mythos- Eonwe was obedient to a higher power. If Manwe didn't tell him to capture Sauron then he had no business doing it on his own.


If Eonwë was (is?) a character that only does what he is told to do precisely, then I would say that he is indeed a pawn. Yea, even more than Sauron.


----------



## Annaheru

> From _HoME X - Morgoth's Ring/Myths transformed_:
> Quote:
> It may be noted that Sauron's first defeat was achieved by the Númenóreans alone (*though Sauron was not in fact overthrown personally: his 'captivity' was voluntary and a trick*)
> 
> I think that should explain my meaning when stating that Sauron's captivity was voluntarily.


His *Captivity* was voluntary, not his _defeat._
_



And Sauron came. . . . For he percieved that the power and the majesty of the Kings of the Sea surpassed all rumor of them, so that he could not trust even the greatest of his servants to withstand them; and he saw not his time yet to work his will with the Dunadain.And he was crafty, well skilled to gain what he would by subtlety when force might not prevail

Click to expand...

 ~Akallabeth_
_Sauron didn't challenge Numenor with the thought of giving himself up: he simply saw the uselessness of a battle and decided to use another tactic. If he had thought that he could win in open battle he would have chosen that method rather then humble himself before mere mortals_



> If Eonwë was (is?) a character that only does what he is told to do precisely, then I would say that he is indeed a pawn. Yea, even more than Sauron.


 

As I indicated before Eonwe had *duties*. No soldier in any army worthy of the title army has EVER been allowed to ramble off on their own quests and neglect their duty. Even if it is a good cause, they can't do it. When they do armies have this little thing called a court-marshal.
The Maia were "servants and helpers" of the Valar, it was their duty to obey Manwe who Eru had appointed High King. To serve is not being a 'pawn': it takes more honor and courage to follow than to lead.


----------



## Arvedui

I don't know why, but it seems as if we have quite a different understanding of the direct quote from _Morgoth's Ring_...
It says *defeat* and *trick* in the same sentence, and that is enough to me. In my opinion, Sauron was at the time strong enough to force his subordinates to fight the Númenóreans if he had wanted. Instead he used an easier and more cost-effective approach.



> No soldier in any army worthy of the title army has EVER been allowed to ramble off on their own quests and neglect their duty. Even if it is a good cause, they can't do it.


You are quite right that medieval soldiers were not allowed to do that, but:
1) Eonwë was not a mere soldier. He was the leader of the Army!
2) To my knowledge, initiative within the framework that is called the O-plan is encourraged throughout most armies. Those that don't encourage this, have a tendency to loose in the end.

Sauron was summoned to come to Valinor, but he hid himself, and Eonwë did nothing about it! That has got nothing to do with understanding one's given mission.



> When they do armies have this little thing called a court-marshal.


They do?
Care to know which line of work I am in?


----------



## angnor

@Arvedui
I think you're rather missing some of the point made in earlier points. Different maia had different gifts, and different levels of strength in different areas. Is it realistic to expect Eonwe (a herald and warrior) to find a shapeshifter, sorcerer, and master of shadows?

Although I do agree it seems rather negligent to leave him loose, if Sauron wants to hide he's going to be able to do it and not be found. Besides, there's no reason to assume no search was made. I could be very wrong about this, but I recall no passages describing how a search was neglected. It's just never explicitly stated. It's entirely possible they looked for him, couldn't find him, and then had to go home. The army that came over for the war of wrath couldn't spend forever rooting out a few stray balrogs, dragons, and Sauron. 

That's what elves, men, and dwarves are for.


----------



## Annaheru

Arvedui said:


> I don't know why, but it seems as if we have quite a different understanding of the direct quote from _Morgoth's Ring_...
> It says *defeat* and *trick* in the same sentence, and that is enough to me. In my opinion, Sauron was at the time strong enough to force his subordinates to fight the Númenóreans if he had wanted. Instead he used an easier and more cost-effective approach [/QUOTE
> A cross-reference is using one text to understand another. Cross your quote with my quote and you get Sauron originally wanting to fight, and then thinking better of it. That still doesn't mean he *originally,* i.e. before the Numenoreans landed, wanted to place himself at his enemies feet.
> 
> "Eonwë was not a mere soldier. He was the leader of the Army!"
> 
> As a historian I can definitevely tell you that a herald and/or bannerbearer is NOT the leader of an army. If that were the case (even just sticking to JRR's mythos) Halbarad would have been Aragorns superior. Being a standard bearer is a position of honor and importance, but not that of a general (standard bearers had an unfortunate tendency to get killed). A herald is simply someone who bears the leaders orders and pronouncements (therefore not the leader himself). Eonwe was responsible for the Silmarils (they were in his camp) he couldn't follow Sauron, and as angnor said by the time he could Sauron had hidden himself: much as Morgoth passed through Valinor without being found by Tulkas.
> And midieval armies did not have an O-plan, orders were to be obeyed, when they weren't bad things happened <visions of Knights charging each other to seek personal glory>


----------



## Periharadan

Interesting discussion; here's what I found in the Silmarillion index :
_Eönwë_ One of the mightiest of the Maiar; called the Herald of Manwë;*leader of the host of the Valar* in the attack on Morgoth at the end of the First Age (the emphasis is mine)

"Herald" for a god isn't the same thing as "Herald" for a general, it seems...

as for my feeling about whether or not Eönwë failed : I have the impression that it's a result of the Oath of Fëanor and his sons. At the end of the war of wrath, Morgoth is chained, and Angband destroyed. The Silmarils are recovered. Maybe if the war had ended here, the valar would have stayed in Middle Earth a bit longer to sort things out, but two of Fëanors' sons manage to steal the Silmarils; and being burned by them, they throw them away. this and the fact that most of the elves decided to go to the west and leave that land of war and sorrow, gives the impression that the Valar have decided to not meddle in middle-earth's affairs (Sauron being only a Maiar, he can't affect the universe as much as Morgoth, he's thoroughly bound to middle-earth) more than strictly necessary. 

sorry for the mish-mash : Eönwë not going after Sauron isn't a failure, it's the result of a Valarin policy. (maybe 'mood' would be more exact)

hope you can sort it out


----------



## Annaheru

I agree that Eonwe was head of the host, my point is that if he had been ordered to watch the silmarils by Manwe (who as High King I was thinking of as the 'true' leader) he would have been unable to pursue Sauron, and afterwards your point about the Valar's priorities comes into play: Eonwe would have had many responsibilities as the Valar and Eldar returned to Valinor.


----------



## Periharadan

Annaheru said:


> I agree that Eonwe was head of the host, my point is that if he had been ordered to watch the silmarils by Manwe (who as High King I was thinking of as the 'true' leader) he would have been unable to pursue Sauron, and afterwards your point about the Valar's priorities comes into play: Eonwe would have had many responsibilities as the Valar and Eldar returned to Valinor.



I never thought the Valar were part of the host; I had the feeling that Manwë and Co remained in Valinor during the war of wrath : why, the Valar being present, Eönwë should be the leader of the host? I was reading the phrase 'the host of the Valar' not as 'a host including Valar' but as 'the host sent by the Valar'. In another part of the Silmarillion , in "of the rings of power and the third age":
_When Thangorodrim was broken and Morgoth overthrown, Sauron put on his fair hue again and did obeissance to Eönwë, the herald of Manwë, and abjured all his evil deeds. And some hold that this was not at first falsely done, but that Sauron in truth repented, if only out of fear, being dismayed by the fall of Morgoth and the great wrath of the Lords of the West. *But it was not within the power of Eönwë to pardon those of his own order, and he commanded Sauron to return to Aman and there receive the judgment of Manwë.* Then Sauron was ashamed, and he was unwilling to return in humiliation and to receive from the Valar a sentence, it might be, of long servitude in proof of his good faith; for under Morgoth his power had been great. Therefore when Eönwë departed he hid himself in Middle-Earth and he fell back into evil, for the bonds that Morgoth had laid upon him were very strong._

the highlighted section shows that at least, Manwë wasn't present. And I think that the last time the Valar came to middle-earth was just after the awakening of the Eldar

So we know three things : 
1-Eönwë didn't have to go get Sauron, Sauron came himself and repented (Tolkien seems to like him being repenting, at least for a moment) .
2-it wasn't in Eönwë's power to judge Sauron, him being a fellow Maia.
3-When Eönwë left, Sauron hid himself.

question : why Eönwë didn't bother to get Sauron when he didn't show? 

maybe the reason lies in the very nature of the Lords of the west : they simply can't understand evil. He probably thought that Sauron would come by his own means. 

Or it lies in them being of the same order : only a Vala could chase Sauron and destroy him... 

but again, if Manwë gave Eönwë the right to take a Vala like Morgoth, Eönwë should have had the right to tidy up Sauron at the same time, since he did the Balrogs in, them being Maiar also... 

and again, Sauron did repent, and as such, he may have had a "temporary amnesty"

...muddled...sorry...

in light of a bit of reading, my opinion is that Sauron's power kind of "fade", he is less powerful than the Western Maiar at the time of the War of Wrath, and loses more of his power after Akallabêth (he can't take a fair appearance afterwards), but he's still more powerful than the Istari -taken individually- in the third age (in _the Hobbit_, he's driven out of Dol Guldur by the White Council :Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast, Elrond, Galadriel,)...

if we take the phrase _ for under Morgoth his power had been great_ literally, then we can think that he was sharing of Morgoth's power before his downfall (of course, it could also mean that he just have a big castle and lots of slaves...)

BTW, funny how Aulë's Maiar seem cursed : first Sauron, then Saruman...
is there an Aulë discussion somewhere? it's something that interests me (maybe the theme of how easily craftsmanship can be perverted...)


----------



## Maggot

Good point Periharadan maybe you could start a discussion in the Flotsam and Jetsam bit I for one would drop in.


----------



## Arvedui

The question of the Valar participating in the War of Wrath have been discussed before in the thread Of the Valar and the War of Wrath and I think that there is a general consensus that Eonwë was the leader-in-the-field of the Host of the Valar. Thus, Annaheru, you and I have been discussing matters with a different view of Eonwë's position.

As the quote Periharadan (welcome to the Forum, BTW) provided said: Sauron hid in Middle-earth *after* Eonwë had departed. This can easily be understood in the way that Eonwë departed Middle-earth, believing that Sauron would come as he had been ordered to.
In that case, it is the Valar that must take the blame for leaving Sauron in M-E.

Nevertheless, discussing Eonwë's position is merely semantics, and I appologise for taking that matter out of proportion in relation to the topic of this thread.


----------



## Periharadan

Arvedui said:


> The question of the Valar participating in the War of Wrath have been discussed before in the thread Of the Valar and the War of Wrath and I think that there is a general consensus that Eonwë was the leader-in-the-field of the Host of the Valar. Thus, Annaheru, you and I have been discussing matters with a different view of Eonwë's position.
> 
> As the quote Periharadan (welcome to the Forum, BTW) provided said: Sauron hid in Middle-earth *after* Eonwë had departed. This can easily be understood in the way that Eonwë departed Middle-earth, believing that Sauron would come as he had been ordered to.
> In that case, it is the Valar that must take the blame for leaving Sauron in M-E.
> 
> Nevertheless, discussing Eonwë's position is merely semantics, and I appologise for taking that matter out of proportion in relation to the topic of this thread.



Thanks! I've read some of your posts and you often gave me food for though. I'm still in my newbie mood, when any question seen on the forum spurs a tremendous hunger of knowledge; please veterans bear with me until I cool down 

It seems obvious (hope I'm right ) to me that Sauron didn't exist in Tolkien's pantheon, and that he introduced him somewhere between the two pieces where the war of wrath appears. But it's interesting to try and guess how the master would have tied the two stories to explain for his slipping away... but as you pointed out, it isn't the subject of this discussion, so I'll stop here.

and thank you for the link!


----------



## Ithrynluin

I've had a huge reply ready for this thread, and then when I clicked submit, the server was busy and post lost. Will try again sometimes...  



Periharadan said:


> BTW, funny how Aulë's Maiar seem cursed : first Sauron, then Saruman...
> is there an Aulë discussion somewhere? it's something that interests me (maybe the theme of how easily craftsmanship can be perverted...)



A greater tendency for rebellion


----------



## Arvedui

Periharadan said:


> Thanks! I've read some of your posts and you often gave me food for though. I'm still in my newbie mood, when any question seen on the forum spurs a tremendous hunger of knowledge; please veterans bear with me until I cool down


I truly hope that you never cool down, but instead stay in the 'newbie-mood' as long as you maintain any interest in the works of JRRT.


----------



## Elostirion

According to Gandalf during the Last Debate in tLofR after the Battle of Pelennor Fields and prior to the final assault on the Morannon, Sauron's fall as a function of the destruction of the Ring would result in his ultimate diminution to nothing more than an ephemeral gnawing sprite in the shadows but his power, were he to regain possession of the Ring, would be so great as to subdue all extant forces in ME for millenia.

The latter point raises several questions:
1. Would Sauron have been satisfied with only ruling ME?
2. If not, would he therefore contemplate an assault on Aman perhaps with a view to somehow effecting the release of Morgoth? (Let's assume his powers would give him the ability to successfully navigate the "Straight Way").
3. If so, would such a threat (surely on a par with that of Morgoth over six thousand years previously) result in a second War of Wrath? (notwithstanding the absence of an equivalent "Earendil" character [except Cirdan perhaps?] able to achieve the virtually impossible journey to Aman to plead again before the Valar for the peoples of ME). Also a second War of Wrath would be very difficult to instigate without desperate losses on the part of ME's enslaved and hostaged populations.
4. Or maybe the Valar would once again "lay down their guardianship" and call on Eru to intervene as with Ar-Pharazon's attempted invasion of Aman at the end of the Second Age.

Overall, in renewed possession of the Ring, Sauron would be a pretty formidable character who could at the very least, only really be challenged by Arda's eternal superpowers... the Valar.


----------



## Prince of Cats

Elostirion said:


> The latter point raises several questions: 1. Would Sauron have been satisfied with only ruling ME? 2. If not, would he therefore contemplate an assault on Aman perhaps with a view to somehow effecting the release of Morgoth? (Let's assume his powers would give him the ability to successfully navigate the "Straight Way").


 I'm not sure Sauron would want to risk releasing Morgoth. Sauron seems like a pretty greedy maia, and Morgoth I imagine would covet his/it's success


----------



## Erestor Arcamen

Prince of Cats said:


> I'm not sure Sauron would want to risk releasing Morgoth. Sauron seems like a pretty greedy maia, and Morgoth I imagine would covet his/it's success



I agree that Sauron wouldn't try to release Morgoth. Do you think Sauron knows Mandos' prophecy for the Dagor Dagorath?



> "Thus spoke Mandos in prophecy, when the Gods sat in judgement in Valinor and the rumor of his word was whispered among all the Elves of the West. When the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth, seeing that the guard sleepeth, shall come back through the Door of the Night out of the Timeless Void; and he shall destroy the Sun and the Moon. But Eärendil shall descend upon him as a white and searing flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the Last Battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day, Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Eonwe, and on his left Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin, coming from the halls of Mandos; and the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the Children of Húrin and all Men be avenged.
> 
> Thereafter shall Earth be broken and remade, and the Silmarils shall be recovered out of Air and Earth and Sea; for Eärendil shall descend and surrender that flame which he hath had in keeping. Then Fëanor shall take the Three Jewels and bear them to Yavanna Palúrien; and she will break them and with their fire rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth. And the mountains of Valinor shall be leveled, so that the light shall go out over all the world. In that light the Gods will grow young again, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Ilúvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy of Mandos doth not speak, and no Man it names, save Túrin only, and to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar."



I'm sure Sauron wouldn't want to release Morgoth and risk helping to fulfill the above prophecy. It means that once he does all that work to conquer ME and rule it's people, if he goes and helps Morgoth out, he's most likely toast along with Morgoth.


----------



## Elostirion

[SUB]_"I'm not sure Sauron would want to risk releasing Morgoth. Sauron seems like a
pretty greedy maia, and Morgoth I imagine would covet his/it's success"_[/SUB]

My understanding of the mind of a being like Sauron or his Nazgul is that beyond a certain point, they are incapable of independent will and purpose i.e. the will of their master drives them at such a fundamental level such that they cannot but fulfil their master's will: the Nazgul would have been incapable, were they to gain possession of the Ring, of doing anything other than taking it to Sauron and in Sauron's case, he would be similarly incapable of doing anything other than seeking the well-being or freedom of his master, Melkor.


----------

