# A 'theory' concerning Tom Bombadil



## Gnashar_the_orc (Feb 27, 2002)

First of all may I express my enormous dissapointment of Tom Bombadil not appearing in the film  . 
Secondly, I believe that since Tom keeps singing and rhyming all the time he quite possibly is Iluvatar's song incorporated within a single body (or Iluvatar himself?!). After all, he says to the hobbits that he was there even before Melkor had even existed on Arda. That would also explain why he is not affected by the Ring. 
Any opinions?


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## baraka (Feb 27, 2002)

> *First of all may I express my enormous dissapointment of Tom Bombadil not appearing in the film *


*

I know exactly what you mean. I was so looking foward to seeing Tom but a certain director thought that he was not important. 

To me it was the same when he decided to cut Glorfindel.  

Ho Tom Bombadil, Ho Tom Bomdadillo*


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## Goldberry344 (Feb 27, 2002)

I MUST also say how dissapointed i was that Tom wasnt in the film. i understand why they did cut him, but they shouldnt have.  
I think that Tom was just tom. He is a really fun character, and i think JRRT put him in A) to make his kids happy, he was originally a doll and B) because in all of the hubub about the ring, there had to be someone who was happy and unaffected by the power of the ring.


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## baraka (Feb 27, 2002)

Without Tom there was no Goldberry!


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## Goldberry344 (Feb 27, 2002)

or is it with out goldberry there is no tom.....because he is absolutely smitten with me.....lol


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## baraka (Feb 27, 2002)

And who wouldn´t be?


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## Goldberry344 (Feb 27, 2002)

lol. i wonder what it was with JRRT and blondes. Was his wife a blonde??


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## Legsofglass (Mar 5, 2002)

Gnashar,

About the speculation you made about Tom being Iluvatar himself, I have something to show you.

"There is no embodiment of the One, of God, who indeed remains remote, outside the World, and only directly accessible to the Valar or Rulers." 
The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien No 181, dated 1956 

This shows Tom couldn't have been Iluvatar since Iluvatar has no embodiment.

(quoted quote taken from Encyclopedia of Arda)


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## Grond (Mar 5, 2002)

Let's see. Does this thread belong by itself in the Movie Forum or should it be merged into the Bombadil thread in the book forum? A conundrum. I can't decide. I'll be back.


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## Gnashar_the_orc (Mar 7, 2002)

*GOLDBERRY!*

GOLDBERRY: What was that about Tom being a doll? Can you enlighten me please?!


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## Beleg Strongbow (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: Re: A 'theory' concerning Tom Bombadil*



> _Originally posted by baraka _
> *
> 
> I know exactly what you mean. I was so looking foward to seeing Tom but a certain director thought that he was not important.
> ...




same


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## Úlairi (Mar 8, 2002)

There is a thread I posted some time ago called: "My theory on Tom Bombadil". It may have some answers in there for you. It was a very 'heated' thread though!!! It should still be around but you'll have to search for it. I posted it in 'The Lord of the Rings forum'!


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## Grond (Mar 8, 2002)

I hereby dub the royal title of "Lord of the one line posts" upon Beleg Strongbow.

Attaboy!!


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## Úlairi (Mar 8, 2002)

*Hey, what about me???*

   Hey Grond! I always seem to be writing really long posts 24/7! So, any titles for me???


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## Grond (Mar 9, 2002)

Hmmmmm! Let's see. Ulari, I hereby dub you Ringwraith Extraordinaire!!!


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## Úlairi (Mar 10, 2002)

*Yes, well!*

    Thanks Grond! I do have a rather EXTENSIVE knowledge about the Ringwraiths, and keep you eyes peeled for two threads (that I belive) will cause some controversy! Notice that I usually do three smilies at the beginning and end of my posts, it has been somewhat of a trademark of mine, and I hope some of you keen-eyed people out there have noticed that. For future reference, I have FOUR smilies at the beginning and end of my posts, that means I am extremely happy with the compliment I was given and the person who complimented me! Thanks again Grond, I feel so happy!!!


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## Heruhim (Mar 13, 2002)

Iremember having read somewhere that Tom is supposed to be a maia and I'm okay with that. Goldberry is the one who puzzles me... riverdaughter? never got that one straight....


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## Glory (Mar 15, 2002)

someone told me that tom was like fagorn....like the spirit of the foredt and goldberry was like the spirit of the water in this case one river


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## Ordain (Mar 15, 2002)

Heruhim,

I can't say Tom isn't of the Maiar, but I have reason to assume he isn't. See, when Frodo hands Tom the Ring and Tom puts it on, he doesn't vanish or have a problem giving it back. All the other Maiar we know about (who have confronted the Ring) have been overtaken by the power of the One Ring: Gandalf, Saruman, Sauron.

I think this is reason enough to believe Tom isn't a Maiar. But then again, who knows?


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## Lantarion (Mar 15, 2002)

I have posted my opinion nuuumerous times, and I think Tom is not any of the Ainur. But it is difficult to say, because none of the Maiar presented in the LotR (as a narrative) have worn the Ring, so we don't know if they turn invisible or not!


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## Glory (Mar 15, 2002)

that's true


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## Úlairi (Mar 16, 2002)

No, sorry Glory it is not true. Sauron is a Maia and he does not disappear. In fact he becomes in a more physical form than he does in LoTR, even though it is apparent that he can become physical in LoTR. Sauron's will was not subject to nor tempted by the Ring, by the way welcome! He was the only being that could actually control the Ring's will, simply because he made it. As for Bombadil, he is one of many of Tolkien's enigmas. It is hard to say what he is, but I have come to the conclusion that he could not be a Valar or Iluvatar himself simply because it says in the Council of Elrond:



> "And even if we could, soon or late the Lord of the Rings would learn of its hiding place and would bend all his power towards it. Could that power be defied by Bombadil alone? I think not. I think that in the end, if all else is conquered, Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First; and then Night will come."



Iluvatar created the Maiar, he would have no problems stopping Sauron getting the Ring from his place near the Old Forest. A Vala would have not much of a problem either by defying Sauron. As for being a Maia, all Maia are tempted by the Ring, yet Bombadil was not. Iarwain Ben-adar (Tom Bombadil) was therefore neither Maiar, Valar, or even Iluvatar, he was simply an enigma, and as an enigma he shall remain.


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## Glory (Mar 17, 2002)

ohh I see I didn't knew that sauron was a maia.....I always could forget it.


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## Úlairi (Mar 18, 2002)

Yes, Sauron is a Maia, but the only one of them who is not tempted by the Ring, he simply wants it again so that he can return to his former power.


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## LadyGaladriel (Mar 18, 2002)

I think he was just a cool guy called tom . who was so content that he didn't need power


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## Elbereth (Mar 18, 2002)

It is said in the Ainulindale that the Iluvatar did not reveal all that he had in store for Middle Earth...even to the Valar who helped in its creation. 

And perhaps Tom, Goldberry, and the Ents are among the hidden beings of Iluvatar's third symphony, who were not originally percieved by the Valar in the begining of creation.


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## Úlairi (Mar 20, 2002)

A very good theory Elbereth, I forgot about that. In the third symphony, the Ainur could not perceive what Iluvatar had in mind. That theory is very believable.


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## Heruhim (Mar 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Elbereth _
> *It is said in the Ainulindale that the Iluvatar did not reveal all that he had in store for Middle Earth...even to the Valar who helped in its creation.
> 
> And perhaps Tom, Goldberry, and the Ents are among the hidden beings of Iluvatar's third symphony, who were not originally percieved by the Valar in the begining of creation. *



Hey! I've always thought that the ents were a creation of Yavanna after she'd found out that her husband (or partner, whatever you call him) had created the dwarves and Ilúvatar gave them life. Tseems she got jealous or something and pleaded for some being to protect her creations.


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## Elbereth (Mar 22, 2002)

Heruhim, you are correct about the Ents...I briefly forgot about that tale...thank you for refreshing my memory.

Actually, tonight I was reading the Illustrated Tolkein Encyclopedia and I found this passage that may shed some light on the mystery of Tom and Goldberry.

"...Many other good and strong spirits came to inhabit Middle Earth. These were perhaps Maiar, like Melian, yet from the histories this can not now be learned. Chief of these is he whom the Grey elves named Iarwin Ben-adar. By the Dwarves he was named Iarwin, by Men Orald and by Hobbits he was called Tom Bombadill. He was a short stout man with blue eyes, red face, and brown beard. Always singing and speaking in rhymes, he seemed a nonsensical and eccentric being, yet he was absolute master of the Old Forest. 
Another spirit that is thought to be Maiar was the River-woman and her daugher Goldberry, spouse of Tom Bombadill..."

So I hope that quote clears everything up...I also remember reading that Tolkien said in a letter concerning the creation of Tom...that he could not clearly say that Tom or Goldberry were actually Maiar in origin, since none of the text concerning the history of Middle Earth has ever mentioned Tom's origin. (Apparently, Tolkien intended on keeping Tom and Goldberry a mystery. Which is unfortunate, since it drives us totally crazy today.)


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## Grond (Mar 22, 2002)

Sorry but the Ents were not a creation of Yavanna. 

Yavanna feared for her works, since Melkor had marred so many of them. She told Manwe her fear, asking if nothing of her making would "be free from the dominion of others". He asked what she would reserve, and she answered for the olvar, the plants, for they could not flee as could the kelvar, the animals. She wanted the trees to speak for all those with roots, and punish those who wronged them. She told Manwe what she remembered of such trees in the Song: 

"For while thou wert in the heavens and with Ulmo built the clouds and poured out the rains, I lifted up the branches of great trees to receive them, and some sang to Iluvatar amid the wind and the rain."
Manwe considered, given a vision by Eru Iluvatar as he did so, then told Yavanna of what he had learned: 
"When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared. For a time: while the Firstborn are in their power, and while the Secondborn are young."
"But in the forests shall walk the Shepherds of the Trees."
Much relieved, Yavanna returns home and meets Aule in his smithy, passing on what she had learned: 
"Eru is bountiful," she said. "Let thy children beware! For there shall walk a power in the forests whose wrath they will arouse at their peril." 
"Nevertheless they will have need of wood," said Aule, and he went on with his smith-work.
The first Children to awake would be the elves, the second are men, for time line purposes. The children of Aule are the dwarves, who awaken later officially.


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## Goldberry344 (Mar 23, 2002)

> goldberry was like the spirit of the water in this case one river



she was the river DAUGHTER.... i think i heard somewhere that she was acctually the daughter of the river (dont ask me how!)


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## Taran (Apr 1, 2002)

Tom was a Maia, I think, and so were Goldberry and Withywindle.


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## Glory (Apr 2, 2002)

yes she was the daughter of the river that how I got my teory that she was some kind of spirit becuse she sometimes looked and acte like she were made of water or being related to water....


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## Grond (Apr 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Taran _
> *Tom was a Maia, I think, and so were Goldberry and Withywindle. *


It would help if everyone would read the entire thread before posting their opinions, which have already been posted and discussed before. This thread has been merged at least five times and now we have yet another Bombadil thread.


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