# How strong was Morgoth when he fought Fingolfin?



## Turin_Turambar (Aug 9, 2021)

What do you think of the power Morgoth had when he fought Fingolfin?


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## m4r35n357 (Aug 10, 2021)

In JRRT's later writings (particularly in personal correspondence), and in discussions of them, there is a tendency to make Morgoth appear extremely weak, but I don't buy that argument. I think his power was still very great at this point. He was in absolute command of _all_ the forces of darkness, and they (Balrogs, Dragons, Werewolves, Orcs, Bats & Serpents) certainly knew who was boss. However, he had nothing whatsoever to gain by fighting Fingolfin. Of course he won, but at a fairly high cost, and I put that down to (amongst other things that I might remember later):

Poor choice of weapon
Inexperience at hand to hand combat
Over-confidence plus doubt!
"The most valiant" Elf as opponent
"Reporting" on the incident is heavily biased, typical Elvish chauvinism, since this is the History of the Elves


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## Turin_Turambar (Sep 14, 2021)

m4r35n357 said:


> In JRRT's later writings (particularly in personal correspondence), and in discussions of them, there is a tendency to make Morgoth appear extremely weak, but I don't buy that argument. I think his power was still very great at this point. He was in absolute command of _all_ the forces of darkness, and they (Balrogs, Dragons, Werewolves, Orcs, Bats & Serpents) certainly knew who was boss. However, he had nothing whatsoever to gain by fighting Fingolfin. Of course he won, but at a fairly high cost, and I put that down to (amongst other things that I might remember later):
> 
> Poor choice of weapon
> Inexperience at hand to hand combat
> ...


I think there was also a possibility that Morgoth would lose in his duel with Fingolfin. He was wounded 7 times and moreover remained lame. Morgoth would have died if Fingolfin had stabbed Morgoth's heart, as Turin's gurthang had stabbed into Morgoth's heart in Dagor Dagorath.


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## Alcuin (Sep 14, 2021)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> Morgoth would have died if Fingolfin had stabbed Morgoth's heart, as Turin's gurthang had stabbed into Morgoth's heart in Dagor Dagorath.


You’re conflating what Tolkien wrote about the confrontation between Morgoth and Fingolfin, which is (by conceit of the tale) an event in Arda’s past, with what you presume to be an event in Arda’s future. 

In section VII of “Myths Transformed”, part (ii), in _Morgoth’s Ring_, Tolkien wrote,
Melkor “incarnated” himself … permanently. He did this so as to control the _hroa_, the “flesh” or physical matter of Arda. … A vaster and more perilous procedure, though of similar sort to the operations of Sauron with the Rings. Thus, outside the Blessed Realm, all “matter” was likely to have a “Melkor ingredient”… 

But in this way Morgoth lost … the greater part of his original “angelic” powers … while gaining a terrible grip upon the physical world. … The whole of “Middle-earth” was Morgoth’s Ring… War against him might well end in reducing all Middle-earth to chaos, possibly even all Arda. … [T]he final eradication of Sauron … was achievable by the destruction of the Ring. No such eradication of Morgoth was possible, since this required the complete disintegration of the “matter” of Arda…​Regarding Morgoth’s strength, in part VI of “Myths Transformed”, we find that in their war against Morgoth in which the Valar overthrow Morgoth in his fortress of Utumno to capture and imprison Morgoth in Mandos for the protection of the newly-awakened Elves,
[The Valar] come at last to Utumno … and find that “the Morgoth” has no longer for the moment sufficient “force” … to shield himself from direct personal contact. Manwë at last faces Melkor again, as he has not done since he entered Arda. Both are amazed: Manwë to perceive the _decrease_ in Melkor as a _person_, Melkor to perceive this also from his own point of view: he has now less personal force than Manwë, and can no longer daunt him with his gaze.

Either Manwë must tell him so or he must himself suddenly realize (or both) that this has happened: he is “dispersed”. But the lust to have creatures under him … has become habitual and necessary to Melkor, so that even if the process was reversible (as it possibly was by absolute and unfeigned self-abasement and repentance only), he cannot bring himself to do it.​When he fought Fingolfin, Morgoth was weaker still, having “dispersed” even more of himself; but he was still greater than Sauron or any others of the Maiar. Whether or not Fingolfin could “kill” him, unhouse him by destroying his physical form, is purely speculative. In Tolkien’s mythology, Tulkas once more seizes him in Angband at the end of the War of Wrath, and the Host of the Valar returns him to Valinor. In Section VII part (iii),
[Morgoth] was judged, and eventually taken out of the Blessed Realm and _executed_: that is _killed_ like one of the Incarnates. … [T]hough he had “disseminated” his power … far and wide into the matter of Arda, he had lost direct control of this, and all that “he”, as a surviving remnant of integral being, retained as “himself” and under control was the terribly shrunken and reduced spirit that inhabited his self-imposed (but now beloved) body. When that body was destroyed he was weak and utterly “houseless”, and for that time at a loss and “unanchored” as it were. We read that he was then thrust out into the Void. ​Again, maybe Fingolfin could have achieved this or not: certainly Morgoth understood that he could be injured, as indeed he was, and was quite possibly afraid he could be “killed” by the Elf-king; but whether or not Fingolfin possessed sufficient means to do this is most unclear.


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