# Democracy



## Húrin Thalion

I have raised this idea once before, but then the focus was upon another suggestion, and this one did not seem to be heard. Anyway, i have now decided to dedicate a thread only for the purpose of making TTF democratic.

As we all know, the members are TTF, without them: No TTF. The Moderator's are the ones that are appointed to see to that all discussions are kept in a prudent and if not amicable at least cordial manner. Now, there has been a lot of disputes between members and mods, chiefly caused by a growing dissatsifaction with the Moderators from the member's side. This is serious, and ahs already had serious consequences. I ahve a simple solution for the problem, 'tis called Democracy, or at least free elections. If anyone was dissatsified then, he or she cannot complain, since they have had the chance to choose their moderators!

Måns


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## Niniel

I think a middle way would be best: WM could propose a person that he thinks is suitable as a mod, and the members could in a poll decide whether they think it is a good choice. That way both WM and the members have a say in who will be mods.


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## Aragorn21

I agree with you Niniel. I think that agrees with what Húrin wants. That way everyone would be able to voice what they think. Another possibility is if WM chose several people he thought would be good moderaters and the members chould select from the list. What do you think?


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## Eledhwen

This website belongs to the webmaster. We have just signed up to enjoy its facilities and the fellowship and cross-learning it provides with other like minded Tolkien fans.

What makes people think they should then be allowed to muscle in on the running of things, using the word 'democracy'?

We have the council of 9 already, whose role needs clarifying, and moderators to keep the lid on friction and spam, so why do we need elections? And if we do end up with a democratic vote, what then? People come and go on this forum at their whim. You can do that on the internet, so our democratically elected whatevers would end up with power minus responsibility, unless of course we get someone to oversee them. WM perhaps? and if he's too busy, maybe he should appoint someone, but that woudn't be democratic, so let's all vote again, and hope our choice remains on the site long enough to make the election worthwhile.

I'd rather leave things as they are.


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## Halasían

I second what Eledhwen says. A site would be democratic IF everyone paid their fair share (taxes) This is a private site and therefore all final decisions are made by the site owner. Besides, from what I have seen here at times, this idea of "democracy" would collapse into chaos quickly on this site.


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## Uminya

Unless you have donated money to the maintenance of this website, I can't see how you can go asking for democracy when it's not your site in the first place. Yes, the members make TTF great, but WM owns the servers that allow the members to be here. Out of his own pocket comes all the funding that allows this site to exist. Domain name, bandwidth, electricity, etc. All of these things cost money, and until anyone else helps pay for the site, I don't see why it should be 'democratized'.

Besides, this place is already bloody well enough politicized, and this would only add to that.


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## HLGStrider

What comes to mind immediately is, no matter how important the members are, we don't own the forum. WM does. It isn't a right, using the forum, it is a privillage granted by WM. 

I also don't always agree that democracy would get the best results. It needs to be balanced with standards, things that can't be voted away no matter how unpopular they are. That's the only way democracy can be kept from mob rule (a Constitution if you will. America is mainly a democracy, but no matter how often we vote we can't vote away free speech etc because we have guildelines in our constitution protecting them. I'm sure other countries have similar situations).

In a private business like this, I think the final word needs to be from WM.


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## Rhiannon

(America is a representative republic...democracy is mob rule)

It's the WM's site. You can make suggestions, talk to him or his representatives if you are unhappy, but you can not and should not tell him how he should do things. Apart from that, attempting to be democratic on this board would be one big ugly mess. Best leave it alone. I see nothing wrong with the current system- the problem seems to me to lie in inter-person politics. Certain people antagonize certain other people and chaos insues. I'm sitting around waiting for it all to blow over. 

In the meantime I blaim the lobsters.


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## Lantarion

I think it's a great idea for members to vote Mods.. It has actually been done in the past, and it's as close to personal freedom in relation to policies at TTF that we can get, as I see it.


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## Mrs. Maggott

I ask for the forgiveness of all concerned, but I would like to post the following observations:

1. Democracy - that is, the "direct vote" means of governance is a disaster! It soon leads to chaos and then an authoritarian form of government since civilization cannot exist in chaos. Most "democracies" in the West - are not. The United States is a _Republic - NOT a "democracy!_ We vote for people to "represent us" in the halls of government. Furthermore, our Consitution protects minorities from the tyranny of the majority (but, unfortunately, not vice versa!). 

Now, many people define "democracy" in terms of ancient Athens - and while that is a fairly accurate observation, I can assure you that the average Athenian who participated in his city-state's "government" was well educated and extremely knowledgeable. Furthermore, there were many people who lived in Athens who were not considered worthy of voting (slaves, women etc.), so we can hardly hold up that "government" as an example for all to follow! 

So let us be _very careful indeed_ when we bandy the term "democracy" about and especially if we put the "one person/one vote" philosophy forward as a means of running the forum! Not only will it result in chaos, but you will find that the resultant power vacuum will eventually result in a worse "dictatorship" than presently exists (if, indeed, one can be said to exist!) - hardly a "fair and balanced" way to run things! Worse, deja vous tells me that I made that exact same comment long ago before the creation of C9 - and here I find myself in the same place once more. Do we learn nothing from the past?

2. What the heck is the problem with the Mods.??? I have been on the forum for some little time as you know. I have posted on many different threads and even been involved in a "dispute" or two - and I have _never_ had so much as an ill considered or rude word said to me by a moderator or the web master. If so many people are receiving their attention in a hostile way, I am beginning to feel more than a little ignored! These good people - and I do not always agree with them - must be working like little furry canines to make this place work! Why on earth would anyone want to "fix" what ain't broken?? 

Are there not means and methods of addressing problems that arise between and among members both in general and among the administration of the forum? I remember the attempt to establish C9 which collapsed because of a huge desire to tinker it into something it was never meant to be! But there are those who volunteered to serve on the Council as it was originally conceived and who would be happy to "run interference" between hostile members, groups or factions even to this day. But for that to work, it requires that all concerned _want to find a peaceful and fair solution to the problem!_ Contrary to popular opinion, it doesn't take two to make a war!

Please, my friends! We are "talking" ourselves into discontent and trouble. If someone has been "insulted" and feels that he or she has not received a sufficient "apology", then the opportunity has presented itself to that person to be the bigger "man" _and walk away_ rather than continue to gnaw at their grievance like a dog with a bone! Let it go, treat all on the forum with respect and affection and soon all the problems will be as long gone as the Third Age.


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## Walter

Of course - and as always - much of what you say is as true as it is wise, Mrs.Maggott, but nonetheless I disagree with some of your conclusions.

A few things come to mind: If we consider ourselves here an "Online Community" and if it is - as the name suggests - in some ways related to J.R.R. Tolkien and his works, what then is the "goal" or "mission" of our community here? Do we have none? And who defines how we approach these goals? What is the role of the "powers" and what the role of the "members"? Who decides what?

Regarding Democracy: It always was and still is my stance that even though technically the WM "owns" this place, it is the members and their contributions which represent the true assett of this forum. 

Without meaningful contributions the place is not much more than a couple MB of space (to store data) at some Harddisk(s) and some bandwith to access this space (or the data). Not that this isn't worth much, it is a prerequisite. And we need to be grateful that WM grants us this without having us pay for it. But it still makes no community.

A community - in my understanding - only works well when both sides, the individuums who form the community as well as the community - as a whole - gain from the situation of forming a community. Also the members of the community need to take some responsibility in order to maintain its values and achievements. But that only works when they get some saying in the process. Communities don't seem to work well at length, when they are "dictated" by one or a few in an "absolutistic" approach.

Which brings me to your second point - the moderators. While I agree with you that overall they are doing a great job in helping to maintain this place there have been in the past - as you are well aware - single actions of moderators, which are not improving the community, but rather weakening it. 

Yesterday, for example, we had such a case again: A member - who has proven to be a pillar of Tolkien-lore and -research on TTF for quite some time - started a thread in Entmoot (the proper place for such a concern, I think) to express his/her concern about another member, who is "spaming" the site with hundreds - if not thousands - of posts and dozens - if not hundreds - threads with the sole purpose to attract some attention to his/her own person (and - probably - to increase his/her postcount). 

This was admittedly not done in the most diplomatic approach, but the concern was nonetheless serious and not far-fetched. The first post - of course - led to a little exchange, but none of the "contrahents" actually crosssed the line in the dispute. Eventually a moderator felt the need to step in, and handing out *8* warning points for "rude behaviour" to the one who had started the thread ! The whole thread is now either deleted or moved beyond general access and that's it. I need to add, that I have not seen anything that could remotely be considered "rude behaviour" of this member since the day he/she joined...

Now, if that is the way how conflicts - which address serious issues regarding our community here - are being "moderated", some will loose their trust in either the "powers" or the "community". And draw their conclusions which in many cases will lead to another weakening of the community - IMHO that is...

Now the question arises if there would be means to avoid such situations in the future? Other than sweeping it under the carpet, I mean. Or if a general "prohibition" to issue such concerns and to discuss them in the open, quasi _per decretum_ is the solution?


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## Gothmog

Walter, I sympathize with your points. However, since you obviously feel that the problems you see with some Mods needs to be handled publicly, have you thought of starting a thread in the GoM GM: Discussions?

This would be far better than just a post in a thread that could be missed by Many Mods. Airing your views about problems with the Mods in the GoM would bring them directly to the attention of All the Mods and hopefully head off animosity which could prevent things from being sorted.


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## Beleg

This is Mr. Webmaster's site and he has the right to do whatever want to with it provided that the action doesn't contradict his word, IMO. 

Democracy can't work here because basically democracy will fail. 
A member selected by the public would essentially be like an MP who is answerable to those that got him the seat. I don't believe he can be entirely objective [Well none can, but some a member more so then others] even if he tries to. 

If one doesnt agree with Mr. Webmaster's decision and does not have a destructive mind, he can but give up his issue or leave [in various forms], IMHO. 


Walter posted, 



> I need to add, that I have not seen anything that could remotely be considered "rude behaviour" of this member since the day he/she joined...


Perhaps, others are a bit more observant then you, Walter.


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## Gil-Galad

I will be probably criticized for the words I will say but anyway.I think WM should choose the MODS.
Popularity here is something relatively.It is easier here to be popular when you participate in the light-hearted threads and non-Tokien stuff,than when you participate with serious posts,based on long researches.Thus Mods may become members who gain cheap popularity.
Call it elitism call it whatever you want,but that is the truth.The majority of members are young and they can easily make a mistake.Let leave the things the way they are.The mods we have are experienced,with extended cognition in Tolkien's world and works and they do their job well.


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## Mrs. Maggott

Okay. About the member posting tons of threads, posts et al. It might have been better for the member who discovered the problem (although I wonder why it was so hard for the moderators to see it if it were all that blatant) to p.m. the offending individual and suggest that a little less participation might be a better way to proceed. If the individual was not sufficiently alert to follow such good advice, then the member could have p.m'd a Mod and pointed the problem out. At that point, the best thing for that member to have done was to _leave it in the hands of those running the forum_ and go about his business. After all, the situation as described appears to be no skin off the reporting member's nose! I cannot understand why that member thought it was necessary to begin a thread about all this in the first place! 

Secondly: yes, a web master by himself is like a knight without a horse - rather ineffective. But still, the site is his and he certainly appears to have attempted to be accommodating to those of us who have joined with him to make it a place where we may all pursue our interests and interact with like-minded individuals (except, of course, on the film threads!). So it is certainly true that all of us together _are_ TTF. But that means - as in the case of a marriage - each of us should be concerned about the well being of others before we are concerned about ourselves. If I think about you and him and you think about him and me and he thinks about you and me, then before you know it, there is overall harmony. It is only when my first concern is me and your first concern is you and his first concern is him that the trouble starts!

I beg everyone here - and I know most who have posted and you represent the best that the forum has to offer - that before all else, matters of concern should be handled _privately_, away from the general membership. If you and I have a problem, with good will there is nothing we can't work out. But if we try to do it in public, before you know it various members begin to "take sides" - and there is nothing, and I mean _NOTHING_ as destructive as "factionalism". Better by far that you and I privately come to an uneasy truce (and perhaps avoid each other for awhile) with no one the wiser than after we have publicly settled our dispute, turn around to find chaos behind us! 

Words (written or spoken) cannot be "taken back". There is no "do over" or "mulligan" in human discourse. It is infinitely better to have questionable words dispersed as narrowly as possible while praise and encouragement should be universal.


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## Talierin

What Mrs Magott is true, and I cannot say this enough! If you have *ANY PROBLEM with another member, DO NOT make a thread about it, PM A MOD about it. * This will solve a lot of the problems we've been having. Most of the "incidents" we've had lately are caused by members that had a problem with something another member did (or even a mod, heh), but decided instead of pming a mod, to make a public thread about it, dragging the whole forum into it, and making the current air worse.... WE HAVE GOT TO STOP THIS!

Same goes if you have a problem with a mod, PM ANOTHER MOD (preferrably Beorn) ABOUT IT!


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## Lantarion

As Walter brought up the issue of a certain Moderator issuing Warning Points to a certain member recently as something wrong and/or unfounded, I feel obligated to explain myself.


> _Originally posted by Talierin_
> If you have ANY PROBLEM with another member, DO NOT make a thread about it, PM A MOD about it. This will solve a lot of the problems we've been having. Most of the "incidents" we've had lately are caused by members that had a problem with something another member did (or even a mod, heh), but decided instead of pming a mod, to make a public thread about it, dragging the whole forum into it, and making the current air worse.... WE HAVE GOT TO STOP THIS!


The above quote is part of the reason that the certain member received WPs. And such conduct goes under "Rude or Abusive Behaviour" as far as I see it.
But the certain member is fine with it, and taking this reasonably; also the points will expire, and act only as a Warning (as their title should imply). Warning Points seem to have a very negative air about them for a lot of people, when really they are just what they calim to be - Warnings!


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## Lhunithiliel

Two things to say:

1/ What if the problem is NOT on a _personal_ level /member< > member/ but is a problem concerning the community?!

And 

2/ How about saving the same passion, tone, font-size and color of your posts here to make another valuable warning:

I'd say sth. like:

"STOP POSTING NONSENSE!" 

Will be just as valid as the 

"ANY PROBLEM with another member, DO NOT make a thread about it, PM A MOD about"

Or 

Does it NOT matter to you that posting nonsense ruins the image of the same person whose rights over this site you are otherwise defending? 
I am absolutely sure that this man had no intention to open and keep a site for the purpose of nonsense posts.

Has it ever occured to you that posting nonsense ruins the image of the community?
I remember Beorn posted a wonderful piece of news once - that TTF was viewed by people who wish to learn sth. valuable about the books, about the movies, about topics born by those two...

Do you think that posting nonsense will keep this interest alive?


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## Rhiannon

I don't see anyone advocating posting nonesense, Lhun. I'm not familiar with the situation being discussed, but it sounds to me like a member who responded inappropriately to a situation was penalized. That seems perfectly reasonable. Had the member gone through the appropriate channels- PMing the 'spammer' in question, or contacting the mods- this would have been avoided.


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## Lantarion

Quite so, Rhiannon. 



> _Originally posted by Lhunithiliel_
> Has it ever occured to you that posting nonsense ruins the image of the community?


No, it has not. Because it does not. In fact, it bolsters the sense of community. Show me anything contradicting that and I'll reconsider my view on it.


> _ibid._
> I remember Beorn posted a wonderful piece of news once - that TTF was viewed by people who wish to learn sth. valuable about the books, about the movies, about topics born by those two...
> 
> Do you think that posting nonsense will keep this interest alive?


Yes of course I do! Why would peoples' interest in Tolkien somehow cease to exist just because members occasionally post nonsensical threads? I fail to see the connection you're trying to establish.


> _Originally posted by Rhiannon_
> I don't see anyone advocating posting nonesense, Lhun.


Well, I may have posted something to that effect in a post (or was it a PM?).. My intention was to point out that nonsensical threads are not completely nonsensical, in that they are designed to have a desired, positive effect on people. I didn't mean that everybody should start posting nonstop in Stuff and Bother!!


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## Lhunithiliel

The person "who responded inappropriately to a situation was penalized" is me, Rhiann.  
And I am not complaining about being punished with the warning points! 
And when Lant says I am OK with the punishment he is correct. 

But I wonder... how come that all the attention is paid to the "technical" problem of PM-ing or not PM-ing and not focussing upon the real problem I reacted against! 
Yes, I reacted in a most unpleasing way for some people! And I got my warning for that!

Does it take off my right to draw the attention to the real problem itself?

What would one of those students I mentioned in my previous post think of the site if he/she opened the site at the same time I did, only to find 14!!! threads of nothing-to-do-with-Tolkien threads, which list covered the whole screen? Would he/she not look again at the banner on the top to be sure he/she has not got into the wrong site? 
This was the second time I opened a thread bringing forward one and the same problem. The first time, after a hot discussion among the members of the community, there were some very good changes. This time, .... I don't know what will happen. 

But the problem stays. 

No! To be honest... I saw that the Mods moved or deleted...in any case handled those threads. Shall we see mor of such in the future? It all depends on US! NOT on the Mods!


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## Rhiannon

I guessed you might be, Lhun, so I was aiming for delicacy 

I think that while it may rest with us, it does not need to be public. It was the mods job to 'handle' the threads, and they could have done so just as easily if you had voiced your concerns in a PM. I don't understand the need for a thread.


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## Mrs. Maggott

I would hope that a member who does something for the good of the forum (but perhaps not in the most appropriate way) would be contacted and asked not to do so in future - again - _privately!_ 

Motives are important. If I spam to gain points or do something silly (which may be harmless enough, surely), then I have earned my "warning points". If I am trying to better the forum, even if I do so in a way that is perhaps not as "appropriate" as I might have done, then someone should contact me quietly and ask me to do it a different way next time - with _no_ warning points. This really isn't very difficult to do. 

If there is a question regarding the individual's intentions, then a private "conversation" between the member and the Moderator will probably clear the matter up. If the member insists that whatever happened was either unintentional or simply "harmless fun", then a warning should be sufficient with a mention of the fact that "next time" might include warning points. Unless the individual involved is _determined to cause trouble_, this type of response should put the matter to rest. 

On the other hand, if this type of gentle remonstrance brings about a public hue and cry by the member involved and he/she makes an attempt to "raise allies" against the moderators, then one may safely assume that that person is not interested in the well being of the forum. For even if the Moderator has been perhaps not as "diplomatic" as he or she should have been (in other words, has been "nasty" to the member), I cannot envision _any_ defensible reason to create a schism in the forum. Far better to accept ill-treatment with grace and forebearance than to forment forum-wide ill feeling which will ultimately cause far more damage than the "sin" of the Moderator or even that of the member.


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## Talierin

> _Originally posted by Lhunithiliel _
> *But I wonder... how come that all the attention is paid to the "technical" problem of PM-ing or not PM-ing and not focussing upon the real problem I reacted against!
> Does it take off my right to draw the attention to the real problem itself?*


*

No, it doesn't take away your right at all, but getting attention by screaming and yelling in a public thread is not the way to go about it. We like it when people tell us they have a problem with something, BUT! I'd personally much prefer to receive a nice pm explaining the problem, and ways you'd like to see it resolved, and then I can bring it up with my fellow mods in our little section, and we can discuss it and try to fix it, without having the big mess of a public thread to clean up after it invariably turns into a big argument. No, a pm may not be as "showy", but it's a lot more polite, and personally, I'm more likely to respond to it than a rant thread.

But the sad thing is that I have never ONCE received a pm about something like that... maybe somebody should actually try it! We don't turn a deaf ear to the problems, and yes, making a thread does show us that there's a problem going on, but half the time I'm not even SURE what exactly the problem is cause everyone's tempers are running high and it's all just arguing with the problem never being clearly defined.

So next time something like this happens, I challenge you to pm a mod instead of making a thread, and see how it goes... I bet you it will be better...




What would one of those students I mentioned in my previous post think of the site if he/she opened the site at the same time I did, only to find 14!!! threads of nothing-to-do-with-Tolkien threads, which list covered the whole screen? Would he/she not look again at the banner on the top to be sure he/she has not got into the wrong site? 
This was the second time I opened a thread bringing forward one and the same problem. The first time, after a hot discussion among the members of the community, there were some very good changes. This time, .... I don't know what will happen.

Click to expand...


Look, the book sections are right at the top of the board, and stuff and bother is way at the bottom. If a student is looking for info on the books, is he going to look in stuff and bother? No! And more likely than not, he's not going to look at New Topics...

And if you have ideas for changes, PM! I really don't want to see another "hot discussion"...




No! To be honest... I saw that the Mods moved or deleted...in any case handled those threads. Shall we see mor of such in the future? It all depends on US! NOT on the Mods!

Click to expand...


Look, Elgee was prolly wrong to do what she did, and again, she should have pmed a mod, but she was at least making a concious effort to clean up some of the spam. And I deleted/moved the threads as soon as I got on, which wasn't all that long afterwards, so they weren't there horribly long.... Was that really worth all this?

And on a side note, I have been meaning to clean out S&B and other off-topic sections as soon as I find some time. Also, the post rate in there has been going down...*


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## Mrs. Maggott

Again, I ask what the problem is with bringing the offending whatever to the attention of one or more of the Mods in a private communication and then awaiting their response. I can't imagine that they won't say _something_! 

But let us supposed that the w.m. and mods determine that whatever the person is doing is not worth their response? So what! Then let whatever it is stand! Is it silly? Maybe - but then there are those people who probably think what we're all doing here on this forum is "silly" and that we shouldn't be wasting our time doing it! 

So............. let me just bring to this thread my little plan of action for all such future cases:

1. Good Member 1 finds that Member 2 has posted something (or some_things_) which Good Member 1 believes is silly, stupid, spamming or something else that is not beneficial to the well being of the forum.

2. Good Member 1 pm's Member 2 and suggests that whatever "it" is, should be removed and/or deleted and certainly should never be done again.

3. Member 2 thanks Good Member 1 for his concern and promises to remove the offending thread(s)/post(s) and will definitely be more careful in future.

4. Problem solved without the involvement of forum participants other than two members.

1a. Good Member 1 finds that Member 2 has posted something (or some_things_) which Good Member 1 believes is silly, stupid, spamming or something else that is not beneficial to the well being of the forum.

2a. Good Member 1 pm's Member 2 and suggests that whatever "it" is, should be removed and/or deleted and certainly should never be done again.

3a. Member 2 tells Good Member 1 to "take a hike", that he will post what he wants when he wants - and immediately goes off to post three more offensive threads/posts.

4a. Good Member 1 pm's Moderator 1 to bring the problem to his/her attention.

5a. Moderator 1 (after looking into the matter) reassures Good Member 1 that the power of the Forum's leadership will be brought to bear on Member 2 and that the offending threads/posts will be removed.

6a. Problem solved without the involvement of forum participants other than two members and a Moderator.

1b. Good Member 1 finds that Member 2 has posted something (or some_things_) which Good Member 1 believes is silly, stupid, spamming or something else that is not beneficial to the well being of the forum.

2b. Good Member 1 pm's Member 2 and suggests that whatever "it" is, should be removed and/or deleted and certainly should never be done again.

3b. Member 2 tells Good Member 1 to "take a hike", that he will post what he wants when he wants - and immediately goes off to post three more offensive threads/posts.

4b. Good Member 1 pm's Moderator 1 to bring the problem to his/her attention.

5b. Moderator 1 (after looking into the matter) tells Good Member 1 that it's not a big deal and the Forum leadership will not do anything to stop Member 2 from making a fool of himself.

6b. Problem solved insomuch as the problem has been considered by the Admins who have chosen to leave it alone. However, the decision has been made without the involvement of forum participants other than two members and at least one Moderator.

Now, Good Member 1 may not be happy with "solution b", but if the w.m. and moderators are willing to accept what has been done, then it behooves Good Member 1 - as a "good member" of the forum - to accept that decision. 

I would think that this is the way these things should be handled! To bypass steps 1 through 4 seems to me as offensive as any possible posts against which someone may complain! Everything possible should be done to settle these matters internally without bringing into the dispute other members who are not directly involved - unless someone can convince me of a reason why it should be done otherwise.


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## Talierin

Yes, Mrs M, that is exactly what should be happening! I earnestly encourage you all to try it!


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## Gandalf The Grey

The question that you're discussing here of how to handle nonsense posts reminds me of a similar situation I faced on a different Tolkien forum.

This other Tolkien forum was virtually overrun with off-topic posts, but had one redeeming quality which kept me coming back: The web master did an incredibly good job of clearing out spam and intrusive troll-posts from his RPG section, so there was at least ONE part of the forum that could be counted on as an oasis to keep intact the atmosphere of Middle Earth.

Once it happened that a troll decided to barge in on an RPG where I was acting threadmaster, and post such things as a picture of Pewee Herman, a picture of James Bond, and a renegade unauthorized killing of one of the story-characters without the permission of the guy who owned the character. To solve the problem, all's I had to do was send a PM to the web master ... and voila! ... the offending spam was silently deleted within several hours ... no fuss, no muss.

Meanwhile, the rest of that other forum was drowning in nonsense posts to (IMHO) the detriment of serious ... or even jovial ... discussion of Middle Earth, such that I quietly made the decision to leave. The web master ran his site according to a different philosophy than I had, and I as his guest, was bound to respect that ... and either live with it, or move on.

The only clue that the casual observer may have had regarding my departure from that other site was that I posted in the RPG discussion thread that I had unfortunately become too busy to continue participating in the RPG, and that I would greatly miss the story and the people involved. In fact, I didn't even make my leaving the RPG an abrupt departure ... I left plenty of room in the story for Gandalf to come back in at a later date, should things take a turn for the better.

At that point, I simply left the forum. No fanfare, no disappearing into a cloud of smoke or flame. No good-bye announcement "I'm Hereby Leaving the Forum" thread. I just left, keeping the option open for any who expressed an interest in keeping in touch to be able to continue to contact me through e-mail, private message, or an alternate forum.

It all comes down to voting with your feet.

Gandalf the Grey


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## Mrs. Maggott

I find this a marvelous forum. I do not necessarily post in every section, but I am sure that I will find marvelous posts in those sections should I go there. I like the people here, the serious ones, the silly ones, the quirky ones, the dreamy ones and the ones that are all of the above depending upon the time of day or the phase of the moon. Why any of us should "fight" with one another because we are not in total agreement is beyond me! Indeed, I am extremely suspicious of anyone who agrees with me too much... there has to be something wrong with him or her given my knowledge of me.....

Please, oh my friends, let us "love one another" and enjoy what we are fortunate enough to have at our disposal; that is, not only this forum, but the man and his works for which this forum exists! Let us not do anything which might cause damage to this, our intellectual refuge.


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## HLGStrider

> Yesterday, for example, we had such a case again: A member - who has proven to be a pillar of Tolkien-lore and -research on TTF for quite some time - started a thread in Entmoot (the proper place for such a concern, I think) to express his/her concern about another member, who is "spaming" the site with hundreds - if not thousands - of posts and dozens - if not hundreds - threads with the sole purpose to attract some attention to his/her own person (and - probably - to increase his/her postcount).



Perhaps when one sees garbage such as this posted about oneself one should laugh and walk away. At the begining, I was willing to do that, but not now.

Points: None of the threads in discussion had anything to do with POST COUNT. They were in Stuff and Bother. 

The threads were made over a period of months in stuff and bother to have fun. Most people liked them and had fun with them.

I brought them up to have them deleted. 



I did this and was just about to turn in when a friend pointed out Lhun's thread. Assuming she'd missinterpeted my actions as just randomly bringing up threads for no purpose, I posted what I was doing. She got mad, accused me of spamming, using the forum as my personal whatever, and various other things. 

I posted that I hadn't broken any rules.

She posted getting angrier. 

I left the forum for the night thinking some sensible mod would delete the thread because Lhun was obviously getting distraught.

Apparently it continued on after I left.

And now I find the Guild of Tolkienology taking the time to laugh about it in their private threads. I find Walter slandering me in Entmoot threads, and Lhun as well, and making fun of me in his Avatar.

I find a certain lack of maturity.

The general feeling is that Lhun is a better member, a pillar of the community, than Elgee but she is also an oppressed member, not like the terrible, pampered, spamming Elgee who gets away with anything.

What I was getting away with was cleaning up some forum mess (and one mod actually said I did help them saying otherwise they would've had to dig for old threads).

Another member also took my suggestion (Luthien S.) and did the same with one thread. Ideally I was hoping all of us would pitch in and we could have some fun cleaning up for a day.




Now, if we are going to outlaw ridiculous polls, that is something to be discussed in an Entmoot thread and after we discuss it, if we decide in favor of outlawing ridiculous polls, we can go delete half of Stuff and Bother. Until then, I think a ridiculous poll every so often is good for forum humor. . .and I can point out that most of the forum probably agrees with me.


----------



## Lhunithiliel

> _Originally posted by Talierin _
> No, it doesn't take away your right at all, but getting attention by screaming and yelling in a public thread is not the way to go about it.


Talierin, you are confusing the person! 
It is NOT me, who is in the habbit of posting self-promoting and self-advertising threads! And I would also like you to PROVE where and in what way I was _*screaming and yelling*_! 
If you please!!!
Otherwise I most probably will PM a Mod  that you are offending me in public with false accusations.



> So next time something like this happens, I challenge you to pm a mod instead of making a thread, and see how it goes... I bet you it will be better...


You _*challenge*_ me, Tal? Haven't you taken your friend's problem too "close to the heart", Miss.Mod? Where is your objectivity? Where is your impartiality? Too much emotions involved here Miss Mod! Don't you think? 



> Look, the book sections are right at the top of the board, and stuff and bother is way at the bottom. If a student is looking for info on the books, is he going to look in stuff and bother? No! And more likely than not, he's not going to look at New Topics...


Once again Tal, you are indirectly implying that I am stupid enough as to not know how this site works! This is the second time in one and the same post ot yours that you are offending me in public.
Hmm.... Maybe I SHOULD PM a Mod!



> And if you have ideas for changes, PM! I really don't want to see another "hot discussion"...


Oh, Tal, I have done this quite a few times and the results are obvious! But maybe, Miss Mod, you don't look at the "middle of the page" where the Guilds are! 



> Look, Elgee was prolly wrong to do what she did, and again, she should have pmed a mod, but she was at least making a concious effort to clean up some of the spam. And I deleted/moved the threads as soon as I got on, which wasn't all that long afterwards, so they weren't there horribly long.... Was that really worth all this?


! wonder who else will LGee choose as her spokesman!  

So, Tal, in your attempt to handle the problem you deleted (or moved) the threads in question and even the thread I opened and meanwhile I was DIRECTLY and without any other warnings given the penalty points!
What a marvellous example of justice!
Besides, LGee could've spent a few minutes (just as I did) and in a _quiet_ (as you like to say) PM to a Mod, she could've enlisted all those 14 threads which she wanted to..... 
In fact WHAT did she want to do with them? In one of them that I opened - and I did this not to point out to a thread that is worth reading even if non_Tolkien - I found sth. like... (I of course cannot provide the exact quote now) "I am bored tonight so I am doing ..." . 
All right now, next time I feel bored I will perhaps follow LGee's example of behaviour, because this is the behaviour you are defending Talierin!

Now, I would only like to add that what MM suggests is all right. Just words!
But MM, there would not be a case like that if the _*cause*_ itself does not exist! Don't you think? 

G-the-G, you are not suggesting I should leave the forum, are you?  
No! I am sure you have just told us about your experience. 
But you know.... if in time I see that the problem is not being handled in an appropriate way and that the site keeps being a host of silly threads, then I will definitely reconsider my attempts to keep on contributing. Besides,.......... I suppose at that time there will be no one to work and have fun with while researching and discussing Tolkien! ..... Many have left....Quite a few seldom come ......... Others are on the door- step ready to cross it to the outside........
Isn't this trend troubling you, Talierien? Or are you being too much troubled with how "the evil wraith hurt the poor kitten"!


----------



## HLGStrider

> wonder who else will LGee choose as her spokesman!



Elgee does very well for herself. 



> Besides, LGee could've spent a few minutes (just as I did) and in a quiet (as you like to say) PM to a Mod, she could've enlisted all those 14 threads which she wanted to.....



In the thread I explained why I didn't want to.



> In fact WHAT did she want to do with them? In one of them that I opened - and I did this not to point out to a thread that is worth reading even if non_Tolkien - I found sth. like... (I of course cannot provide the exact quote now) "I am bored tonight so I am doing ..." .



In the debate I just judged you accused your opponent of only quoting half of things you said to make his side look better. You just did that. I believe the statement was something like, "I'm bored tonight so I am bringing up old threads to be considered for Flotsam and Jetsam? What do you think?"

In others I just said "Flotsam or not?" and in one I think I said "Definitely delete."

If you want more info about my program check out this thread and say why you think it is a bad idea in there.

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=14050 



> Isn't this trend troubling you, Talierien? Or are you being too much troubled with how "the evil wraith hurt the poor kitten"!



I think it is hard not to take this stance as you are currently bashing both Tal and myself in about half your posts.


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## Dr. Ransom

> The title of the thread says it all!
> 
> I think that more tollerancy and understanding and patience will help much more to solve a problem than endless discussions on who's right and who's wrong!
> And when I call for tollerancey. understanding and patience I expect to see these on behalf of BOTH sides - the members and the administration stuff!
> 
> And one more thing. I am convinced that if a problem arises between two people on TTF, they should first of all use the PM-opportunity to try and solve it between them and not go straight in public or bother a Mod. A Mod, IMO, should be informed about a trouble only if no understanding is obviously possible to be achieved.
> 
> I therefore have a suggestion to make.
> If it is possible, close the option "Report this post to a Mod". It seems that many people get tempted to use it more often than they should have.
> 
> If you consider yourselves grown up people, behave like ones! Solve the problems without dragging into them the entire community! Because the effect is opposite. Instead of finding a solution to a problem, the problem in fact escalates.
> And then people get hurt or say things they afterwards regret of and good relations are being spoiled...
> Do we need this?
> I think not!
> 
> And most of all - RESPECT the others - every and each one!
> Posts are our way of communication here. We here have a saying: "A said word is like a thrown stone". Before saying the word, think twice!



-Lhunithiliel


----------



## Lhunithiliel

LOL...Dr.Ransom, nice move! 
But if you digged this out in order to point out that I am contradicting myself, let me assure you that I have always been for tollerance in human interrelations! I hate quarrels, I hate ruining good relationships because of disputes heated from outside... I DO hate that!
I have been trying to address the problem as away from personal level as I possible. But I see it is taking precisely this character - personal. 
Well........ let me disappoint you, LGee, Tal, Lant and you Dr.Ransom, I am not going to give you the pleasure of continuing the same nonsense! I am disgusted and as I feel offended in public, and I feel treated injustly, so I will do what is to be done.

You? ... Well, once you have already gathered, you may continue the "party". Have great fun!


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## HLGStrider

I'm not disappointed. In fact, if this means what I think, that you're going to drop this whole thing and not post about it anymore, I'm very relieved.

Though I am a bit confused at why someone who wants to avoid heated disputes would post so angrily at such a little thing. . .

. . .why someone who wants to avoid being personal would accuse me of getting away with spamming because I own shares in WM somehow. . .

etc


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## Dr. Ransom

Lhun, I really have nothing against you. I do think your argument about Elgee is entirelly unprovoked and has little if not nothing to do with you. I don't really care for all the nonsense myself, and would rather stick to more "educational" topics. But I recognize the fun others, and yes, sometimes even myself have with it and I'm not about to reign on somebody elses fun. Especially when they're obeying the rules. 

I almost never visted S&B before you and your GoT friends killed the GoR and GoP. But now I have to dig through tons of junk to find any serious thread. I have no pity for you GoT people who have your own nice little section to hide in and than complain just because something somewhere is silly. 

Also, I really do think that you have crossed over into hypocracy on this one. Not only your own post last week, but the fact that you constantly need to flame to make a point. If I have to have a spammer or a flamer on the forum... I'll pick the spammer anyday. 

I really have nothing against you... But I don't really have anything else to argue about right now, and you're wrong, so you make a nice past time. 

Besides, Elgee is extremely thick skinned and I'm tired of people taking shots at her just because she is long-suffering. 

Respectfully-
Ransom


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## David Pence

Okay, let's keep this thread on a civil tone.

I'm going to make an announcement soon covering some of the topics in this thread, primarily that public disputes between members, as well as disputes between members and moderators, will no longer be dealt with in public. We will encourage members to honestly and eagerly attempt to resolve these disagreements via Private Messages. If such an attempt fails to resolve the issue, members may then bring the matter to me in a detailed Private Message, and I'll do what I can to resolve the issue. I have not yet decided if the Moderators will become involved. This is not an original method of dealing with disputes among members of a site such as ours. In fact, many sites don't tolerate them at all, and simply tell their members to take it outside.

As to the issue of democracy, I'm beginning to think that we're needlessly complicating the overall structure of this site. The concept of TTF is really very simple. A collection of fora, each dedicated to a specific range of topics, where people can discus those topics, governed by a simple set of rules to ensure a non aggressive atmosphere where these discussions can take place. Certain members of this community are set in place as moderators to help make sure that all this takes place.

I will address how we chose Moderators in another future announcement. But I will tell you now that future Moderators will _not_ be chosen by any form of a popularity contest. A members popularity doesn't not always equate to an ability to properly moderate this site. We will discuss just what abilities we will set for future Moderators in aforementioned announcement.

So, let's calm down, and not cause any more derision.


----------



## Gil-Galad

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> *Perhaps when one sees garbage such as this posted about oneself one should laugh and walk away. At the begining, I was willing to do that, but not now.
> 
> Points: None of the threads in discussion had anything to do with POST COUNT. They were in Stuff and Bother.
> 
> The threads were made over a period of months in stuff and bother to have fun. Most people liked them and had fun with them.
> 
> I brought them up to have them deleted.
> 
> 
> 
> I did this and was just about to turn in when a friend pointed out Lhun's thread. Assuming she'd missinterpeted my actions as just randomly bringing up threads for no purpose, I posted what I was doing. She got mad, accused me of spamming, using the forum as my personal whatever, and various other things.
> 
> I posted that I hadn't broken any rules.
> 
> She posted getting angrier.
> 
> I left the forum for the night thinking some sensible mod would delete the thread because Lhun was obviously getting distraught.
> 
> Apparently it continued on after I left.
> 
> And now I find the Guild of Tolkienology taking the time to laugh about it in their private threads. I find Walter slandering me in Entmoot threads, and Lhun as well, and making fun of me in his Avatar.
> 
> I find a certain lack of maturity.
> 
> The general feeling is that Lhun is a better member, a pillar of the community, than Elgee but she is also an oppressed member, not like the terrible, pampered, spamming Elgee who gets away with anything.
> 
> What I was getting away with was cleaning up some forum mess (and one mod actually said I did help them saying otherwise they would've had to dig for old threads).
> 
> Another member also took my suggestion (Luthien S.) and did the same with one thread. Ideally I was hoping all of us would pitch in and we could have some fun cleaning up for a day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now, if we are going to outlaw ridiculous polls, that is something to be discussed in an Entmoot thread and after we discuss it, if we decide in favor of outlawing ridiculous polls, we can go delete half of Stuff and Bother. Until then, I think a ridiculous poll every so often is good for forum humor. . .and I can point out that most of the forum probably agrees with me. *



Tz.Hm.Mmm.
Probably the best way to have more advocates and speakers and laywers here is to be the "poor" innocent victim.
Lhun received her points but we hoped it was for a good reason.I hoped thay you would probably,take it into consideration.
Anyway,nothing can surprise me anymore.
As Walter said Kittens are more popular these days than an honourable member of TTF,who has contributed a lot to this wonderful place.
Did I deserve my warning points now?For telling the truth?As it should be said?You know very often truth hurts!You can accept it or you cannot,but it will be still the truth! 





posted by 



> I almost never visted S&B before you and your GoT friends killed the GoR and GoP. But now I have to dig through tons of junk to find any serious thread. I have no pity for you GoT people who have your own nice little section to hide in and than complain just because something somewhere is silly.



Dear ´Dr. Ransom´, One would think the Dr. portion of your title indicates the capibility of not contacting oneself. The Guild of Tolkienology is one of the oldest and most honoured Guilds and I would kindly ask that you refrain from insulting those who have been and still are members of the Guild of Tolkienology, including Grond,Maedhros,Nom,Ithrynluin,FOAT,Eriol,Lhunithiliel,Gate7ole,Lantarion,Melian,Scatha,Mrs.Maggott,Finduilas,Beleg,Anatamar IV and many many others (forgive me if I forget somebody).
Pick any of them and check whether you have contributed to this place as much as him.
Honestly, I need to insist on civil discourse, if you would be so kind as to oblige...

GG


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## Gil-Galad

I am sorry WM,I posted my previous post right after you posted yours.Delete it if you want.


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## Beleg

Mr. Webmaster posted, 



> Okay, let's keep this thread on a civil tone.



Since he didn't feel the need of closing this thread; I will reply.




> As Walter said Kittens are more popular these days than an honourable member of TTF,who has contributed a lot to this wonderful place.



This is a direct insult. Calling a fellow member of TTF, a kitten? How more low can you fall?


> Did I deserve my warning points now?For telling the truth?As it should be said?You know very often truth hurts!You can accept it or you cannot,but it will be still the truth!



The truth is that some members of Guild of Tolkienology have very little tolerance; they can't bear anything that goes against their will. 


What did Elgee do?
She started a lot of well, silly threads, some of which evolved into quite intrestesting, and in one case memorable one. 
Lhunithieliel simply couldn't bear them and raised a lot of cry on a very minor topic, not even a problem for anyone concerned directly. [Seeing that Lhun didn't post in them herself and they didnt concern her; she just decided to play the guardian angel and bring this alleged blashphmy to public attention.]

Why have folks developed an elitist attitude?
Walter and Gilgalad have provided a classical example of that. 
In the eyes of some members, since Lhun likes to post mostly or even solely in her corner in GOT or Tolkien-related threads; she is better then other members who can appreciate the importance of light-hearted fun. 




> Dear ´Dr. Ransom´, One would think the Dr. portion of your title indicates the capibility of *not contacting oneself. *The Guild of Tolkienology is one of the oldest and most honoured Guilds and I would kindly ask that you refrain from insulting those who have been and still are members of the Guild of Tolkienology, including Grond,Maedhros,Nom,Ithrynluin,FOAT,Eriol,Lhunithil
> iel,Gate7ole,Walter,Lantarion,Melian,Scatha,Mrs.Maggott,Finduilas,Beleg,Anatamar IV and many many others (forgive me if I forget somebody).
> Pick any of them and check whether you have contributed to this place as much as him.
> Honestly, I need to insist on civil discourse, if you would be so kind as to oblige...
> 
> GG


:d
Perhaps you are the one Gilgalad who isn't making even an iota of sense?

It is the oldest allright, a fact that cannot sadly be altered, but It isn't the most respected Guild of this forum. 

Picking on Dr. Ransom woun't do any good; since he has been and is, no less good then any of the members you mentioned.


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## Eledhwen

It seems to me that, because members will receive warning points for insulting individuals, they have taken to insulting the guild to which they belong instead.

I am a charter member of the Guild of Tolkienologists, and I take exception to some of the comments made above.


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## Walter

Gothmog,

I don't have any problems with the Mods in general, but occasionally I do have a problem with how certain issues are dealt with. As far as this concerns a personal problem, I take it private (which I have done in this case), but when it is an issue which concerns the community in general I would rather see it publicly discussed. 

I was not aware that ordinary members are allowed to post in the GoM, but I will certainly take your advice...

-------------------------------------------------

Mrs.Maggott,

the process you have worked out for handling such disputes of a private nature sure makes sense and maybe it will be worked into the "posting guidelines" or "policy" of TTF

-------------------------------------------------

Concerning the "What is this?" thread, 

and how it was dealt with I would like to say (now that everyone involved has outed themselves) that I don't think that Lhun was addressing a "personal issue" with this thread, even though it could or maybe should have been addressed a little differently. I think all involved parties were at fault somehow:

1) Lhun: She could have addressed the problem in a more general and amicable way. The problem - as I see it - is that threads (and maybe posts too, if they occur more than occasionally) with the sole purpose of - directly or indirectly - attracting attention to the very person of the poster should be considered spam and not allowed or deleted as soon as they are detected. This has got nothing to do with fun or sillyness, which sure must have a place on this forum. 

2) Elgee: She has a bad habit of coming up with such "Ego"-threads/posts - for whatever the reasons are - and got defensive as soon as she detected Lhun's thread, rather than admitting that such threads might be - to say the least - of a questionable nature and might not contribute all that much to the overall purpose of TTF.

3) Lanti: He could should have stepped in and asked the "contrahents" and all other participants to either discuss the general problem - which he spotted and acknowledged in his post - either in a more amicable and general way and a civil tone, or to take it private. Handing out warning points and only to one of the involved parties seems not the fairest approach to resolve the issue.

4) The thread should not have moved outside the member-accessible areas of TTF, rather it should have been attempted to turn it into a fruitful discussion, and see if some positive outcome could be reached.

What I now would hope for is, that everyone involved in this issue - including myself - learn from this incident.


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## Lhunithiliel

To address the incident is one thing but to use it as grounds to insult the Guild of Tolkienology and the achievements of its members - is quite another!
Before anyone does this, let him/her think very carefully!

Beleg, I would prefer to see you addressing me with my full name! 
And concerning the way you speak about the Guild of Tolkienology..... Have you forgotten that you were a member of this same Guild? Show some respect to your former co-members and even to your own contributions!

To those who accuse us for having built a "corner" within TTF.
The subject of activities of the GoT has always been dedicated and aimed at maximum to preserve Tolkien-books-related issues.
Are you accusing us for that?
I don't see any grounds!


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## Walter

I regret having to admit that I never have been a member of the Guild of Tolkienolgists. 

However I do have a lot of sympathy for the guild. 

Aside from some minor flaws, the GoT (and also the GoS) have been the only strongholds of Tolkien-lore and -research in times when everyone else seemed busy discussing philosophy, politics and religion and having lots of fun here. Moreover, what I found fascinating is that they not only manage to research and discuss Tolkien on a very high quality level, but also seem to have a lot of fun (including quite some silliness) on the way. But what I really adore is how they seem to be able to attract and fascinate newcomers with Tolkien's work and how eager so many young members become to learn more about this author and his works. The Tolkienologists - IMHO - represent a small but strong Tolkien-community at its best.

Oh, and I don't feel insulted by being called an elitist for trying to keep the focus on Tolkien here, after all this is - I think - why this community has been founded and why I came here in the first place....

----

Edit: The post I have been mis-quoted for is here


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## Mrs. Maggott

There is no such thing as "just words". Words can be quite deadly and certainly - if we are to judge by the above two posts - they can engender anger and bitterness. But I still am at a loss to understand _why_. Let us suppose that I wake up one morning and my fragile emotional state is such that I believe that I am in need of glorification or recognition or whatever and that TTF is the place for me to get it. And so, I go onto one of the forum sites and begin to post a lot of threads and posts calling attention to "marvelous me"! Er, who cares? 

Or, perhaps, I am in a "playful" mood one day and post a lot of things on a thread designed for silliness. Maybe I post _too much_ or maybe after awhile even I become bemused by the momentary lapse of my otherwise more sober and serious forum sense. Again, who cares since in neither of the above cases does it appear that I have created some sort of major or long lasting damage to the forum.

Now, perhaps there are those who seeing my peregrinations will shake their heads and say, "Old Maggott's lost it!" and go about their business. Others might get a charge out of seeing the old lady acting rather strange. And others - who don't frequent the thread - might never know that I had a moment's weakness. But surely, no one here would totally condemn me! Doubtless, someone might come along - tch tching all the way - and delete my silliness. I might even receive a warning form the poor beknighted soul who had to "clean up" after my emotional spillage, but certainly nothing I have done should raise the hackels on my ordinarily friendly and supportive fellow members! And yet, it would seem to me that is exactly what has happened! And, forgive me, I don't understand why!

Yes, I can certainly understand anyone reacting to an objectionable post which involves ad hominem attacks or slurs against someone's race, religion, nationality etc., but even the most incredibly self-agrandizing posts are harmless enough since they usually call less than flattering attention upon the person posting them. 

God knows there are enough causes of ill will in the world without what we do on this forum becoming still another cause. Let us look upon one another's foibles and failures in the light of generosity and affection, just as a parent looks upon the silly and foolish things done by his or her child. Anger is not an acceptable response to these matters; patience, kindness and gentleness are.


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## Gil-Galad

Beleg you were right in a way,I was too rude in my words about Elgee,but forgive me my irony (or whatever you call it) and let the mods give my warning points.

But one thing I will not accept -insulting the Guild of Tolkienology.I will not post anymore here,I will do what Talierin proposed,I will contact her .


----------



## Beleg

> To address the incident is one thing but to use it as grounds to insult the Guild of Tolkienology and the achievements of its members - is quite another!
> Before anyone does this, let him/her think very carefully!



No one is insulting the GOT. I am merely stating that in the eyes of a lot of members, GOT doesn't hold the same respect it held a few months ago; myself included. 



> Beleg, I would prefer to see you addressing me with my full name!



Very well, although I can't gurantee that I'll be able to type out your correct name everytime around.



> And concerning the way you speak about the Guild of Tolkienology..... Have you forgotten that you were a member of this same Guild? Show some respect to your former co-members and even to your own contributions!



I will show respect where I feel it belongs. I have merely stated part of what I feel about Guild of Tolkienology. And stop this preaching; it's annoying. 



> To those who accuse us for having built a "corner" within TTF.
> The subject of activities of the GoT has always been dedicated and aimed at maximum to preserve Tolkien-books-related issues.
> Are you accusing us for that?



I don't have a problem with folks having their own corners and sections; I just want to say that it's very difficult for newcomers to fit in in your very closely knit community. [Hence, the one month trial and all this ridiculusness]. 

I forgive you Gilgalad your 'irony'. 


> But one thing I will not accept -insulting the Guild of Tolkienology.I will not post anymore here,I will do what Talierin proposed,I will contact her .



By all means do so. About what, I don't know, but why do you go on about getting warning points and such?


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## Gil-Galad

> _Originally posted by Beleg _
> *
> 
> I forgive you Gilgalad your 'irony'.
> 
> 
> By all means do so. About what, I don't know, but why do you go on about getting warning points and such? *



Thank you for the forgiveness Beleg 
I don't like warning points,nobody likes them.I just decided to do what Talierin said -to behave myself as a mature member of TTF and speak with her or another mod.
I said I would not post anymore here,because I don't want to be part of this disgusting thing.
But I will do it again if anything offending,insulting (call it whatever you want) about the Guild of Tolkienology is said.


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## Rhiannon

Nothing is being accomplished in this thread except hurt feelings. Would someone please close it?


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## Eriol

I'm glad to see that Gil-Galad is following Mrs. M.'s advice. Can't everybody else follow suit? I have strong opinions about many of the issues raised in this thread. Guess what I'll do if these strong opinions become too strong to be nurtured in my own mind?

I'LL PM A MOD!!!

Not so hard, eh?

 

(actually I'll PM the "guilty member" first, as Mrs. M. advised)

Let's make this the "PM a Mod Week"; let's try to keep all our negative opinions about anyone else to private messages.

Hehe, poor mods. In a sense, I hope they get swamped by PM's (if this will result in the minimizing or disappearance of public conflicts), but I can't help but feeling sorry for them and wishing them good luck.

I'm sure that if we follow Mrs. M.'s procedure _to the letter_ we will make a better Forum for everybody.

And now I'm off to PM someone .


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## Mrs. Maggott

Before this thread is closed (hopefully soon!), I would ask all concerned to do one thing: in your mind's eye, imagine all the other members who have posted here are in dire need and that _only you_ can help them! Frankly, I cannot imagine anyone here who would not put aside all past ill feelings and rush forward to do so - and I don't think that anyone else here could imagine otherwise. 

Please, dear friends - members and Moderators, wise or foolish (or like most of us, a little of both!), irritated or irritating (ditto the previous sentiment!), let us put aside all that has gone before and consign it to oblivion - where it obviously belongs! You are all so good, so kind, so knowlegeable and so worthy that I can only imagine someone has put a bit if Professor Snape's "irritable potion" in everyone's morning beverage! 

As for the GoT: as a member (however inactive I have been lately), I also wish for nothing but good to be said about the Guild and its members. However, I also understand that from time to time we may fall short of presenting the Guild in its best light - something of which no doubt I am guilty and for which I apologize especially to my fellow Guild members. Let us, however, not permit even the harshest criticism to provoke any response other than motivation for us to be better members of the Guild so as to either improve the critic's assessment of our efforts or, in the alternative, to prove that the criticism itself is unjust. In that way, we can always be sure that we have not contributed to _anything_ but the betterment of the Forum in general and the Guild in particular.

God bless.


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## Gothmog

> Let's make this the "PM a Mod Week"; let's try to keep all our negative opinions about anyone else to private messages.
> 
> Hehe, poor mods. In a sense, I hope they get swamped by PM's (if this will result in the minimizing or disappearance of public conflicts), but I can't help but feeling sorry for them and wishing them good luck.


From My point of view the extra work involved will be Far out-weighed by the lack of cleaning up that will be needed due to there being less public conflicts. So Please, Do use the PMs.


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## Lhunithiliel

I think this is enough!

As I understand I am considered to be entirely wrong for having done what I did!

LGee, accept my appologies!


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## Mrs. Maggott

> _Originally posted by Lhunithiliel _
> *I think this is enough!
> 
> As I understand I am considered to be entirely wrong for having done what I did!
> 
> LGee, accept my appologies! *


Not "wrong" so much as "mistaken". Since we all are both frequently in our lives, no one is in a position to "point fingers". However, it takes a "big" person to admit a mistake and to apologize for it - and another "big" person to accept a gracious apology and let the matter pass into oblivion. I'm sure that now that Lhun has proven herself to be a "big" person, Elgee will prove to be no less!


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## Gandalf The Grey

Dear *Lhunithiliel,* 

To answer your question,



> G-the-G, you are not suggesting I should leave the forum, are you?



No, I'm absolutely not suggesting any course of action to you at all. As I reread my post, I can see where my communication has been unclear, and for this I apologize. * bows low *

I've left out a very important point, which is simply this ..... I'm here at TTF, aren't I? And finding this place very enjoyable and worthwhile. True, non-Tolkien threads exist here, and I'm even apt to participate in them from time to time ... in fact, I even participated in *Elgee's* infamous toothbrushing thread! 

But the main thing is, at TTF, unlike the forum I was describing, the moderators here ensure that Tolkien threads are allowed a fair chance to thrive as well as the off-topic ones, above and beyond "invitation-only RPGs." For this I'm very grateful.

And as a matter of fact, I'm hoping you won't leave ... for if you do, I'll lose the opportunity to get to know you better.

* bows with empty arms outstretched ... on straightening up, presents *Lhunithiliel* a fresh bouquet of asphodel, elanor, and niphrodel flowers *

Well met! 

Gandalf the Grey


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## Mrs. Maggott

And, my dear G the G, she is a beautiful Wraith well worth knowing, as I have discovered from her time as Lady Guild leader of GoT!


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## Rangerdave

Ah the friendly tone that I was waiting for....


So without further ado and at the request of many, this thread is now officially closed.

RD





If anyone feels the need to post a civilized comment, please PM me and I will re-open it for you 
RD


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## Rangerdave

From Lhunithiliel



> Hi!
> I see you (or some other Mod) have closed the thread.
> But then .... The other "big" person does not have the opportunity to accept my appologies!
> 
> 
> Nor there is a chance for the "vultures" to feast!
> 
> Ah! RD! Not fair!





See, I do respond
I said I would open his back up if someone wanted to say something civilized, and lo: someone did.

But I would like to warn the aforementioned "vultures" to mind their table manners.
 


RD


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## Gil-Galad

*a fresh bouquet of asphodel, elanor, and niphrodel flowers * 
ah,flowers,a whole bouqet,a very nice bouqet!Can I have some too?
I am glad the situation seems to be changed.


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## Húrin Thalion

Regarding the closing of threads, I understand your action RD since it was requested by many... But now it seems that different conflicts, including roughly the same members seem to keep popping up, isn't it better if we all have all htis discussing and, hopefully not, arguing in one thread? Seems like we've got a need to vent it.

Måns


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## Gil-Galad

I am afraid this is almost impossible.
It seems to me that the things are going to be ok,and I don't think we should continue talking about such problems in open threads any more,but in pms.
Let's not brake this fragile situation..........time heals I would say.


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## Húrin Thalion

There is obviously a conflict, that runs between two rather distinct groups, such conflicts do not heal over time, tehy rest.

Måns


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## Mrs. Maggott

Indeed, there are times that we must "agree to disagree" and go on with life.


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## Rhiannon

There can be difference without the need for conflict. All we need is mutual respect and courtesy, which happily we seem to be getting. I hope the trend continues.


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## Mrs. Maggott

Frankly, to be other than respectful, amicable and accommodating is to frustrate any hope of "solving" whatever the problems are which arise! Quite often, disputes become so complex that the original situation is not addressed or even quite forgotten in the ongoing argument. There have even been times, I believe, where the problem has been solved but the contention continued simply because it was "embedded" in the thread! That's downright silly, that is!


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## Húrin Thalion

You all go great lengths ot avoid seeing that it is hte same conflict all the time, and that it is obviously not solved by the closing of a thread where it is in. If people have things to say, why don't you elt them say it instead of censuring it all, silencing all thoughts about the conflict. That obviously helps no one. Do you really fail to see?

Måns


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## Rhiannon

People having things to say is all well and good, but when they are incapable of saying them in a reasonable, respectful way and revert to name calling and pettyness, then yes, they do deserve to be silenced. There is no need for dirty laundry to be aired in public, and if it must be aired then it should be done privately through PMs. 

No one is silencing all discussion of 'the conflict'- we are only calling for mutual respect for each other and for the guidelines of appropriate behavior to be followed.


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## Gil-Galad

If f a discussions starts,very often too many people take part in it and as it was said always the real topic actually forgotten.
Using pms seems good and it gives results(I hope it will give a result in my case and my problem will be solved).At laest if something offending or insulting is said in them it is only between 2 persons.
Or another idea.If there are several people who want to discuss a problem which is really a dangerous one in terms of insults,offends etc..,they can always do it online in MSN,YAHOO MESSENGER or somewhere else.


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## Mrs. Maggott

> _Originally posted by Húrin Thalion _
> *You all go great lengths ot avoid seeing that it is hte same conflict all the time, and that it is obviously not solved by the closing of a thread where it is in. If people have things to say, why don't you elt them say it instead of censuring it all, silencing all thoughts about the conflict. That obviously helps no one. Do you really fail to see?
> 
> Måns *


My dear Hurin, no one wishes anyone "silenced". If there is a problem (depending upon what that is), the wisest thing is to speak privately first to the person causing the problem and attempt to work the matter out between the parties.

If the problem is a procedural matter rather than something to do with any one person, then it can be brought up in the appropriate site on the forum. No one would deny any member that right. But frequently, it is the _way_ in which it is brought up that causes the problem. Short of being shot at, there is no reason why any problem cannot be stated politely and diplomatically, designed to "ruffle as few feathers" as possible. I cannot imagine anyone taking offense at a politely stated post regarding a problem that a member is having. Now, it may not be possible to "solve" that problem (depending upon what it is), but it need not cause a catastrophe just because it has been brought up! All that is required is for the person posting to consider:

1. the nature of the problem (should it be handled privately or publicly); and

2. how to post it in a way which prevents anyone from being personally offended. This might not be "easy" (depending upon the problem), but with a little effort, it can be done in such a way that no _reasonable_ person will take offense.

If these steps are followed, then problems and disputes can be "settled" on the forum without becoming ugly and divisive. Even the most loving of families has its little arguments. Why should TTF be different?


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## Parrot

> _Originally posted by Rhiannon _
> *name calling and pettyness, *


The correct spelling is pett*I*ness!  

sorry, couldn't pass it up


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## Rhiannon

I never claimed I could spell. I have absolutely no pretentions of being a speller. None.


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## Parrot

> _Originally posted by Rhiannon _
> *I never claimed I could spell. I have absolutely no pretentions of being a speller. None. *


I was just playing around - being petty. I was going for irony.


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## Rhiannon

So was I, Parrot, no worries


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## Mrs. Maggott

Many years ago when my mother was a girl, if one person was getting the worst of an argument and could think of nothing useful or helpful to say, he (or she) would shout, "Your mother wears army boots!" as if this somehow was making a point.

Although I doubt very much that anyone says that today (especially when it is quite possible that somebody's mother _might_ wear army boots!), the temptation to yell or call names when one is losing an argument has not disappeared. Therefore, the questions that we must ask ourselves before we respond in these debates are as follows:

1. Does what I say/write respond to the gist of the matter under discussion or am I starting to "personalize" my responses against one or more people with whom I disagree and this includes finding fault with things _external_ to that person's argument - like their spelling and/or grammar _unless_ either one makes it difficult to understand just exactly what the person _is_ saying! (This does not include jocularity - see above).

2. Am I getting too "carried away" and responding entirely too strongly for the nature of the discussion? We aren't talking about life and death issues in the forum. Indeed, aside from a few indisputable facts, most of what we discuss here is _sub_jective rather than _ob_jective in nature and therefore cannot be said to be "right" _or_ "wrong" but a matter of personal taste.

3. Will I be happy if I have to retract what I have said at some later date (that is, if I am proven to be wrong in some statement I have made)? There is an old adage that we should keep all of our words "sweet" because sooner or later, we're going to have to eat a few!

4. Is what I am trying to convey more important than the feelings of the fellow human being I am addressing? There are certainly subjects of dispute and discussion that require the truth be told even if it offends or upsets someone. For instance, no one would commend a physician for failing to inform a patient of a potentially life threatening disease simply because he was afraid of "upsetting" him. But on the whole, not only is what we say here not of such a grave nature, but as noted, much of it is fairly subjective and therefore not open to blunt and irrefutable statements of fact. This should certainly make us more concerned with the well being and feelings of our fellow forum members than whether or not we express our own opinion on some subject or another.

In short, we can all have a heck of a lot of fun disputing all of this _provided_ we remember the ground rules of civilized discourse. It is when we forget the latter that the former also disappears.


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