# a new power in Dol Guldur? again?



## Bombadillo (Feb 3, 2004)

In the chapter Lothlorien, in FOTR, Haldir says the following:


> In the midst upon a stony height stands Dol Guldur, where long the hidden enemy had his dwelling. We fear that now it is inhabited again, and with power sevenfold. A black cloud lies often over it of late.



I thought the wizards had cleared out Dol Guldur. What is the power in Dol Guldur that has risen? A ringwraith? I can't remember reading any explanation in the appendices of this.


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## mr underhill (Feb 3, 2004)

Maybe Sauron took it back .


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## Lantarion (Feb 3, 2004)

IIRC, Khamûl the Easterling, one of the Ringwraiths, inhabited Dol Guldur in the end of the Third Age.. 
At first, when I read this part, I assumed that all the Nazgûl were there; then I slapped myself because there are *nine* Úlairi not seven (as in "...power sevenfold..").. So the 'sevenfold' is most probably not symbolic of anything; ninefold would be.. 
But it just means that there were a lot more troops garrisoned there. I suppose.

EDIT: Ah I now recall that it was three of the Úlairi who retook the tower.. Inder can give you the specifics (he will anyway ).


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## mr underhill (Feb 3, 2004)

Lantarion said:


> IIRC, Khamûl the Easterling, one of the Ringwraiths, inhabited Dol Guldur in the end of the Third Age..
> At first, when I read this part, I assumed that all the Nazgûl were there; then I slapped myself because there are *nine* Úlairi not seven (as in "...power sevenfold..").. So the 'sevenfold' is most probably not symbolic of anything; ninefold would be..
> But it just means that there were a lot more troops garrisoned there. I suppose.
> 
> EDIT: Ah I now recall that it was three of the Úlairi who retook the tower.. Inder can give you the specifics (he will anyway ).



What's your source ?

( not saying your wrong i'm just curious )


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## Dáin Ironfoot I (Feb 3, 2004)

It's also important to mention that the forteress in Dol Guldur was left standing, even after the Necromancer's defeat. It was easy to take back the tower. Only after the final overthrow of Sauron did Galadriel throw down its wall and cleanse the area (though I don't know how without the power of Nenya).

That brings up an interesting question- how could Galadriel throw down its walls and 'lay bare its pits' if she didn't have Nenya to aid her? Maybe I'm wrong and have my information screwed up!


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 3, 2004)

Why do you think Nenya had anything to do with the overthrow of Dol Guldur, Dain? I would think the three had no 'agressive' powers at all.

As for Dol Guldur being reinhabited, it was indeed one of the Nine who took his abode there:



> _Unfinished Tales; The Hunt for the Ring_
> Therefore when Osgiliath was taken and the bridge broken Sauron stayed the assault, and the Nazgûl were ordered to begin the search for the Ring. But Sauron did not underesteem the powers and vigilance of the Wise, and the Nazgûl were commanded to act as secretly as they could. Now at that time the Chieftain of the Ringwraiths dwelt in Minas Morgul with six companions, while the second to the Chief, Khamûl the Shadow of the East, abode in Dol Guldur as Sauron's lieutenant, with one other as his messenger.





> Of Khamûl it is said here that he was the most ready of all the Nazgûl after the Black Captain himself, to perceive the presence of the Ring, but also the one whose power was most confused and diminished by daylight.


After driving Sauron out of it, why didn't the wise keep vigil over Dol Guldur?


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## Dáin Ironfoot I (Feb 3, 2004)

The only reason I thought Nenya had anything to do with it was the statement of threw down its walls and laid bare its pits (paraphrasing). To me it just seems like she was held responsible for the final destruction of Dol Guldur, but how could she do all of that? Does it mean she, herself, did it?

Hmm.

Actually, now that Im looking at it, does Tolkien mean the Elves of Lorien under her leadership destroyed Dol Guldur? I always took it that she herself did it, which would be hard without any sort of enhancement. But now that you bring it up, I guess it couldnt have been just her, even with Nenya, as the Elvish rings were made to preserve, not to destroy.

Woops!


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## Flammifer (Feb 5, 2004)

Hmm...

Yes, as ithy says, I also don't think that Galadriel's throwing down of walls and laying bare of pits had anything to do with Nenya. I would rather put it down to her inherent Elvish power that she is graced with as one of the might among the Eldar. She is an Elf who has seen the Light of the Two Trees, and has held long conversation with the (very arguably ) wisest of the Maiar, Melian.

These powers, IMO, are what gave Galadriel the ability to cleanse the forest.

Alternatively, when Appendix B states this, it might just be symbolic of the Elves of Lorien _led by Galadriel_ cleansing the forest (as Dáin has said).


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## Lantarion (Feb 5, 2004)

I agree that Elves, especially Calaquendi it seems, had a sort of innate magical nature; Tolkien does a good job in pronouncing that, when Sam questions Galadriel's skills of 'Magic'; it always struck me as unique and interesting that Tolkien was so careful to differentiate between what later became cliché magical abilities and pure, Elven 'Art' (a term that I actually like more than 'magic', in this context). If the Eldar are able to converse with one another silently, i.e. telepathically, without much effort at all, it gives us an idea of their potential range of powers.
The only other magic we witness in the Lord of the Rings is Gandalf's show of fiery skill; Saruman's Voice can be seen as 'magic', but personally I think it is mostly a sort of skill than sorcery (although I believe that his Maia-essense does affect this skill greatly). And these, I think, can be chalked under basic abilitis of practically all Maiar; after all as I recall the Istari were not especially 'potent' Maiar, and still Gandalf was able to produce fire and light from nowhere, and do various other nice tricks as the White. 

Anyway! About this Galadriel issue. As I said, I believe in this innate magic in all Quendi, but having said that I don't think that these powers are as significant as those of, say, the Istari. While Olórin as the White probably would have been able to physically 'cleanse' and upturn Dol Guldur (like Tulkas did to Angamandi), I don't think that Galadriel's powers were so concrete and dynamic.
And Dáin did well in pointing out that the Three were designed to uphold and nurture, not destroy. (Which actually makes you wonder why there was a seperate ring for "Fire"! Hardly a very gentle or nurturing element..)


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## Arvedui (Feb 5, 2004)

Just one comment on that last observation:

Fire is quite handy when you want to keep warm, cook your dinner, and forge metal...

tsk, tsk......


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## Hirila (Feb 5, 2004)

First let me give you this to think about: As long as Galadriel dwelt in ME, she was in possession of Nenya, though its power was gone after the One Ring was destroyed. Still, she had, as Lantarion nicely said, her elven art. And still, Nenya was once a powerful ring, there may have been a last glimpse of the peaceful power left, just a little sparkle.

And when it says that Galadriel "threw down its walls and laid bare its pits" I don't think she did it with her own hands. I'd rather imagine the elves throwing down the walls physically, so it was no longer a tower, and then with her good elven art, the same magic that still lived in Lothlorien, and Lothlorien was a well of goodness, she "cleansed" away everything that was evil in that place. 
Or maybe it wasn't even that complicated. Maybe she only planted some nice trees and flowers on the piles of debris. Something as pure as a flower has a little magic in itself and may hold the evil away, if you believe in it.


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## Lantarion (Feb 5, 2004)

Sounds very pretty Hirila.  And quite plausible too.


Barmy Arvy said:


> Just one comment on that last observation:
> 
> Fire is quite handy when you want to keep warm, cook your dinner, and forge metal...
> 
> tsk, tsk......


Leave it to you to dismantle my whole, eloquent post!!  
FYI, fire as a basic notion is readily regarded as dangerous, destructive and is linked to pain; air (Vilya) connotes lightness, aestheticity, calmness; water (Nenya) represents life, flowing energy and beauty. These are just my own observations, but according to them Narya is a bit out of place.

SO THERE!!


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## Dáin Ironfoot I (Feb 5, 2004)

It is fire in the wrong hands that creates destruction (or on the hand in this case). Did not Curufin desire Narya after he found Olorin had it? Oh ho ho! Seems Cirdan was a smart one to entrust Narya to the right person. Gandalf most certainly used fire as a nurturing tool, whereas Saruman would have wielded it terribly.

The same could be said for Water and Wind. Perhaps if the Elvish rings had been in the wrong hands, there would have been many natural disasters to put up with in Middle Earth.

As to Galadriel (aka Mama G), I don't think Elvish art could topple an entire tower and cleanse a forest. If that were the case, how could the Enemy oppress the Elves for so long? No, Mama G did not have the power of the Valar. The only sensible thing is that the Elves, under her leadership, threw down its walls and such. She probably (and certainly) helped, but there is no way she did it by herself.


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## Grond (Feb 5, 2004)

Lantarion said:


> Sounds very pretty Hirila.  And quite plausible too.
> 
> Leave it to you to dismantle my whole, eloquent post!!
> FYI, fire as a basic notion is readily regarded as dangerous, destructive and is linked to pain; air (Vilya) connotes lightness, aestheticity, calmness; water (Nenya) represents life, flowing energy and beauty. These are just my own observations, but according to them Narya is a bit out of place.
> ...


I have always thought Galadriel was highly underrated. People forget the Mirror of Galadriel and the inherent "magical" powers she possessed. As one of the Firstborn (and the second or third Eldest Eldar on Middle-earth), she had seen the light of the Two Trees. I've always felt that Tolkien meant for the "High-elves" to have been just that... higher than others of the Elven race. 

Hirila, the book clearly states:


> _from Appendix B, The Tale of the Years,_
> Though grievous harm was done to the fair woods in the borders, the assaults were driven back; and when the Shadow passed, Celeborn came forth and led the host of Lórien over Anduin in many boats. they took Dol Guldur, and *Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits*, and the forest was cleansed.


That sounds clearly to me like the old girl did it by herself. I can't tell you exactly how she did it... but clearly (at least to me) the author's intent is apparent.

Just my 2 cents.


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## Flame of Udûn (Feb 6, 2004)

Dáin Ironfoot I said:


> Did not Curufin desire Narya after he found Olorin had it?


I hope you mean Curunír, not Curufin.


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## Dáin Ironfoot I (Feb 6, 2004)

You know what I meant! 

Curufin was a son of Feanor, right?


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## Anárion (Feb 6, 2004)

~Quote: by Grond ~

Quote:
from Appendix B, The Tale of the Years,
Though grievous harm was done to the fair woods in the borders, the assaults were driven back; and when the Shadow passed, Celeborn came forth and led the host of Lórien over Anduin in many boats. they took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed. 
________________________________

I dont think that Celeborn and Galadriel would have taken all those ships and 
Elves just to watch Galadriel thrown down the entire fortress of Dol Gulder by herself and clap when she was done. IMO, everyone helped (they wouldn't have come otherwise) and she just got to throw down the main chamber or something important. 

~Quote: by ithrynluin

Why do you think Nenya had anything to do with the overthrow of Dol Guldur, Dain? I would think the three had no 'agressive' powers at all.

As for Dol Guldur being reinhabited, it was indeed one of the Nine who took his abode there:

Quote:
Unfinished Tales; The Hunt for the Ring
Therefore when Osgiliath was taken and the bridge broken Sauron stayed the assault, and the Nazgûl were ordered to begin the search for the Ring. But Sauron did not underesteem the powers and vigilance of the Wise, and the Nazgûl were commanded to act as secretly as they could. Now at that time the Chieftain of the Ringwraiths dwelt in Minas Morgul with six companions, while the second to the Chief, Khamûl the Shadow of the East, abode in Dol Guldur as Sauron's lieutenant, with one other as his messenger. 

Quote:
Of Khamûl it is said here that he was the most ready of all the Nazgûl after the Black Captain himself, to perceive the presence of the Ring, but also the one whose power was most confused and diminished by daylight. 

After driving Sauron out of it, why didn't the wise keep vigil over Dol Guldur?
_________________________________

After the War of the Last Alliance, the Númenóreans kept watch on Mordor in great towers, but, they would not dwell in Minas Ithil(Morgul) as it was still infested with evil and "no man dared enter into still". So, I dont think the Wise would have made anyone stay there because no man had the courage. (Men are weak)

Oh yes, and I think Galadriel could have used her ring to help her in the throwing down of Dol Guldur because, in RotK, when Frodo and co. are going home and they reach an area past the point where they met Saruman, it says that when the Lothlorien Elves had to leave, there was a light that flashed out, and then the Elves disappeard and "Frodo knew that she had held up her ring". Since this was in the eary before dawn, the ring could not have reflected light from the sun, so Nenya could not have lost ALL its power, and this was even after the destruction of Dol Guldur.


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 7, 2004)

> *By Anárion*
> Oh yes, and I think Galadriel could have used her ring to help her in the throwing down of Dol Guldur because, in RotK, when Frodo and co. are going home and they reach an area past the point where they met Saruman, it says that when the Lothlorien Elves had to leave, there was a light that flashed out, and then the Elves disappeard and "Frodo knew that she had held up her ring". Since this was in the eary before dawn, the ring could not have reflected light from the sun, so Nenya could not have lost ALL its power, and this was even after the destruction of Dol Guldur.


Provide one example where one of the Three is used for a 'violent' purpose. There is none, because the Elven rings were made to preserve, not destroy.

As for Nenya still having some power, I don't think that's correct.



> _The Lord of the Rings; Many Partings_
> Next day they went on into northern Dunland, where no men now dwelt, though it was a green and pleasant country. September came in with golden days and silver nights, and they rode at ease until they reached the Swanfleet river, and found the old ford, east of the falls where it went down suddenly into the lowlands. Far to the west in a haze lay the meres and eyots through which it wound its way to the Greyflood: there countless swans housed in a land of reeds.


We can infer from this passage that the days were sunny. 



> So they passed into Eregion, and at last a fair morning dawned, shimmering above gleaming mists; and looking from their camp on a low hill the travellers saw away in the east the Sun catching three peaks that thrust up into the sky through floating clouds: Caradhras, Celebdil, and Fanuidhol. They were near to the Gates of Moria.


Another sunny day!  



> But at length all was said, and they parted again for a while, until it was time for the Three Rings to pass away. Quickly fading into the stones and the shadows the grey-cloaked people of Lórien rode towards the mountains; and those who were going to Rivendell sat on the hill and watched, until there came out of the gathering mist a flash; and then they saw no more. Frodo knew that Galadriel had held aloft her ring in token of farewell.


There is no mention here that they began their road home 'in the early before dawn' as you say. Because the mist was _gathering _does not mean it could not have been sunny at the same time. Therefore, I don't think this is any proof of the Three still being 'functional'. Besides, we have proof enough in the books, where we are told that if the One was destroyed, the Three too would fade and lose their powers.


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## Helcaraxë (Feb 7, 2004)

But fading can take time...


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 7, 2004)

Depends on _what _or _who _is fading. The fading of the Elves who decided to linger in Middle-Earth forever would indeed be slow and gradual.

Sauron made his One Ring in such a way, that it held sway over all the other rings, and thus he doomed not only himself, but the bearers of the other rings as well. As soon as the One was destroyed, the other 19 Rings of Power were rendered powerless as well.

No doubt the fading of Lóthlorien took time, after it had no longer been supported by Nenya (and Galadriel herself). But the Ring itself had been without powers as soon as the One dissolved in the fires of Mount Doom.

That is my view of the matter at least .


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## Grond (Feb 7, 2004)

ithrynluin said:


> ...No doubt the fading of Lóthlorien took time, after it had no longer been supported by Nenya (and Galadriel herself). But the Ring itself had been without powers as soon as the One dissolved in the fires of Mount Doom.
> 
> That is my view of the matter at least .


In this matter, we are in total agreement!


> _from The Return of the King, Chapter 5, The Steward and the King,_And Gandalf said: "...This is your realm, and the heart of the greater realm that shall be. The Third Age of the world is ended, and the new age is begun; and it is your task to order its beginning and to preserve what may be preserved. For though much has been saved, much must now pass away; and the *power of the Three Rings also is ended,* all the lands that you see, and those that lie round about them, shall be dwellings of Men. For the time comes of the Dominion of Men, and the Elder Kindred shall fade or depart..."


You can't get much more authoritative than Gandalf. 

As for the decay of Lothlorien and Rivendell, it is my opinion that they would have begun a natural decay at that time, which, I would surmise, would take a significant amount of time in the eyes of Man.


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## jallan (Feb 7, 2004)

Bilbo in the book seems still not to have aged appreciably when Frodo sees him on his first stay in Rivendell.

But after the destruction of the Ring Bilbo begins to _fade_ quickly (at least in comparision to his previous undiminished youthfulness). Even such secondary effects of the Rings are vanishing.


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## Anárion (Feb 8, 2004)

_immediatly_ _immediatly_


ithrynluin said:


> Provide one example where one of the Three is used for a 'violent' purpose. There is none, because the Elven rings were made to preserve, not destroy.
> 
> As for Nenya still having some power, I don't think that's correct.
> 
> ...




OK, so maybe it was a bit sunny, I guess my memory served me wrong and the whole mist thing corrupted my thinking. Perhaps you are correct though, because as the Nazgûl fell _immediately_ after the One Ring was destroyed I'm thinking that maybe the Elvish Rings immediately went out of power and were then just cool looking rings. However, since the Elves (and Istari) bearing the rings were not tied to the One Ring in a physical/mental sense maybe their rings did take some time to fade, quickly in Elvish eyes but a seemingly long time to a mortal man.
Just two possible outcomes.


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## Grond (Feb 8, 2004)

Anárion said:


> _immediatly_ _immediatly_
> OK, so maybe it was a bit sunny, I guess my memory served me wrong and the whole mist thing corrupted my thinking. Perhaps you are correct though, because as the Nazgûl fell _immediately_ after the One Ring was destroyed I'm thinking that maybe the Elvish Rings immediately went out of power and were then just cool looking rings. However, since the Elves (and Istari) bearing the rings were not tied to the One Ring in a physical/mental sense maybe their rings did take some time to fade, quickly in Elvish eyes but a seemingly long time to a mortal man.
> Just two possible outcomes.


I just disagree with your assertion. My prior quote from Gandalf (who bears one of the Rings) is absolute. He states that, "...and the Power of the Three Rings also is ended..."

Also, all the Rings of Power were subject to the One... because without Sauron's "contribution" the very knowledge by which they were made would not have existed. Though he knew not that the Elven Rings were made, the spells and enchatments he placed in the Ruling Ring would make all Rings created with knowledge gleaned from Sauron, subject to the One... and he knew of their existence the very second he set the Ruling Ring upon his hand.


> _from The Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age,_
> "...But Sauron could not discover them, for they were given into the hands of the Wise, who concealed them and never again used them openly while Sauron kept the Ruling Ring. Therefore the Three remained unsullied, for they were forged by Celebrimbor alone, and the hand of Sauron had never touched them; yet they also were subject to the One."


It is my opinion (which I feel is fully supported by the text) that the moment the Ruling Ring was unmade, power immediately faded from all the other Rings of Power.


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## Lantarion (Feb 8, 2004)

Yes, and I would have thought that this was undisputable. Some people may use Galadriel's farewell-glitter of Nenya as a sign of some magic, and perhaps so, but any real actions could no longer be performed by any of the Rings of Power, including the Seven and the Nine.


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## Anárion (Feb 9, 2004)

from The Silmarillion said:


> "...But Sauron could not discover them, for they were given into the hands of the Wise, who concealed them and *never again used them openly * while Sauron kept the Ruling Ring. Therefore the Three remained unsullied, for they were forged by Celebrimbor alone, and the hand of Sauron had never touched them; yet they also were subject to the One."



So does this statement mean they could use them subtley then? For if they could then they would be able to use their rings. It says also in The Rings of Power, that as soon as Sauron slipped on the Ruling Ring, the Elves were immediatly aware of it. So, they could then know when he had his Ring on, and whenever he had his on they wouldnt put theirs on but when he didnt have the One Ring on, could they wear theirs, and a "subtle way"?


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## Grond (Feb 9, 2004)

Anárion said:


> So does this statement mean they could use them subtley then? For if they could then they would be able to use their rings. It says also in The Rings of Power, that as soon as Sauron slipped on the Ruling Ring, the Elves were immediatly aware of it. So, they could then know when he had his Ring on, and whenever he had his on they wouldnt put theirs on but when he didnt have the One Ring on, could they wear theirs, and a "subtle way"?


The key words in the quote you cited are, "...while Sauron kept the Ruling Ring." The words used openly would more than likely be equated to the "wielded". The Elven Rings were used for preservation. As long as they weren't destroyed (or the Ruling Ring destroyed), the work they had already performed would not be undone... but they could not be used openly (wielded) to do additional works, etc. 

At least that is my take on the matter.

Cheers,

grond


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## Isthir (Feb 12, 2004)

Anárion said:


> So does this statement mean they could use them subtley then? For if they could then they would be able to use their rings. It says also in The Rings of Power, that as soon as Sauron slipped on the Ruling Ring, the Elves were immediatly aware of it. So, they could then know when he had his Ring on, and whenever he had his on they wouldnt put theirs on but when he didnt have the One Ring on, could they wear theirs, and a "subtle way"?


Ah, finally something that I may comment on, for you all have done a wonderous job in the debate of this topic.

*Of the use of the Three*​
_Indeed, if it was that Sauron ever removed the One from his finger that they could have used the Three in such a way, but that is not so. Think on it, the Eighteen Rings that were given to the races of ME, were given with the soul purpose of enslaving those races to The Dark Lord. With the bearers of the Three removing their rings and not using them until after the Last Alliance, Sauron would continue his search for them through all means at his disposal; and what better way to search than through the Ruler of that which he sought. Furthermore, Sauron commanded the bearers of the Eighteen through the utilization of the One, why would he ever remove the One from his finger and lose such a power?_​
_As well, though the Sapphire Ring and the Adamant Ring were used strictly for the preservation of life and nature, it is my whole belief that the Ruby Ring was never used so. Though I do believe that Narya has been utilized before our eyes by Olorin. Think of his words on the bridge of Khazad-dûm:_​_
'You cannot pass. I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.'​
The Secret Fire that is spoken of here hints at the Flame Imperishable, for it is said:​

Valaquenta said:



Therefore Ilúvatar gave to their vision Being, and set it amid the Void, and the *Secret Fire* was sent to burn at the heart of the World; and it was called Eä.

Click to expand...

However, this could also mean that Mithrandir was a merely a servant of Eru's power. However 'wielder of the flame of Anor' leaves little to the imagination, for Anor is the Sun. The action of this wielding I credit to Narya that rested upon his finger.​
Upon analysis of this information, I believe that the power of the Three were set with preservation in mind, but as it is with all power it can be wielded and molded in differant ways.​
-Isthir​_​


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## Grond (Feb 12, 2004)

Firstly, I think you are speaking of the 19 and not the 18 (7 for dwarves + 9 for man + 3 for elves = 19 Elven Rings of Power). Secondly, there is much debate on whether Sauron took the Ruling Ring to Mordor. In the Silmarillion it states,


> and though he was robbed now of that shape in which he had wrought so great an evil, so that he could never again appear fair to the eyes of Men, yet his spirit arose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and a black wind over the sea, and came back to Middle-earth and to Mordor that was his home. *There he took up again his great Ring in Barad-dûr*, and dwelt there, dark and silent, until he wrought himself a new guise, an image of malice and hatred made visible; and the Eye of Sauron the Terrible few could endure.


This would imply that during his entire stay in Numenor, the Ruling Ring was off of his finger and safely kept in Barad-dur somewhere. 

You also speak of all of the Rings being distributed to the Races of Middle-earth for domination by Sauron. This, too, is incorrect. The Elves made all of the Rings of Power in Eregion. 16 of these Rings were made with Sauron's direct input and were later recovered by Sauron (who later distributed them to Men and Dwarves) when his army stormed Eregion. He tortured Celebrimbor (maker of the Three) and Celebrimbor divulged the location of the 16 but would not reveal where the Three were kept. The Three were never seen by Sauron nor were they ever sullied by Sauron... but, since they were made with knowledge gleaned from Sauron, they were still subject to the One.


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## jallan (Feb 12, 2004)

Grond posted:


> This would imply that during his entire stay in Numenor, the Ruling Ring was off of his finger and safely kept in Barad-dur somewhere.


From Letter 211:


> Ar-Pharazôn, as is told in the ‘Downfall’ or _Akallabêth_, conquered a terrified Sauron’s _subjects_, not Sauron. Sauron’s personal ‘surrender’ was voluntary and cunning: he got free transport to Numenor! He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Númenóreans. (I do not think Ar-Pharazôn knew anything about the One Ring. The Elves kept the matter of the Rings very secret, as long as they could. In any case Ar-Pharazôn was not in communication with them. In the _Tale of Years_ III p. 364 you will find hints of the trouble: ‘the Shadow falls on Númenor’. After _Tar-Atanamir_ (an Elvish name) the next name is _Ar-Adunakhôr_ a Númenórean name. See p. 315. The change of names went with a complete rejection of the Elf-friendship, and of the ‘theological’ teaching the Númenóreans had received from them.)
> Sauron was first defeated by a ‘miracle’: a direct action of God the Creator, changing the fashion of the world, when appealed to by Manwë: see III p. 317. Though reduced to ‘a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind’, I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended.


That would seem to be that.

Earlier accounts of the fall of Númenor did not mention the Ring as Tolkien had not then conceived of it and it is likely enough that Tolkien only considered the matter when Rhona Beare questioned him about it. But his comments make good sense.


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## Grond (Feb 12, 2004)

And we arrive smack dab back at the beginning of the problem most scholars have with Letter 211... How does a disembodied spirit manage to carry a "physical" Ruling Ring back to Mordor? Answer is that it doesn't. I would imagine that Tolkien just didn't think out this response to Ms. Beare. 

Also there is this...


> _from The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, Letter 131 to Milton Waldman dating from probably 1951_
> ...But there he swiftly rises by his cunning and knowledge from servant to chief counsellor of the king, and seduces the king and most of the lords and people with his lies.


No mention of a Ring here. Just cunning and knowledge. And there is no mention of the matter at all in CT's version of The Silmarillion. My quote from it is pretty clear. He went back to Barad-dur and again took up the Ring. If he's wearing a Ring in Numenor... why would it be necessary for him to "again take it up"???


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## Isthir (Feb 13, 2004)

Grond said:


> Firstly, I think you are speaking of the 19 and not the 18 (7 for dwarves + 9 for man + 3 for elves = 19 Elven Rings of Power).


Indeed this is true Grond, forgive my math in that hour. Now let me comment on that wich you have said:



> You also speak of all of the Rings being distributed to the Races of Middle-earth for domination by Sauron. This, too, is incorrect. The Elves made all of the Rings of Power in Eregion. 16 of these Rings were made with Sauron's direct input and were later recovered by Sauron (who later distributed them to Men and Dwarves) when his army stormed Eregion. He tortured Celebrimbor (maker of the Three) and Celebrimbor divulged the location of the 16 but would not reveal where the Three were kept. The Three were never seen by Sauron nor were they ever sullied by Sauron... but, since they were made with knowledge gleaned from Sauron, they were still subject to the One.


*In Response to the above stated*​
_Yes, you are correct that the Sixteen were made by the Elves of Eregion, and later came to the possesion of Sauron. Now let me rephrase that which you have had a problem with. Sauron desired to rule over the Firstborn, which is seen easily in this passage from The Silmarillion:_​

> Men he found the easiest to sway of all the peoples of the Earth; but long he sought to persuade the Elves to his service, for he knew that the Firstborn had the greater power; and he went far and wide among them, and his hue was still that of one both fair and wise.


_Now, as stated by Grond above, Sauron did assail Eregion because a certain action by the Elves that wore their rings. This action came to be when Sauron placed the One upon his finger, for he was precieved by the Elves and they withdrew the rings from their fingers. So, indeed you are correct Grond so far, but my statement had been that of the picture after the assualt upon Eregion, though I could have worded it differantly and for that I am truly sorry. However, I shall continue this little story of the paths of the Rings of Power, remaining after the attack on Eregion._​
_Before the Distribution to the other Children_​_So it was that Sauron obtained Sixteen of the Nineteen Rings of Power, though the Three, Narya and Nenya and Vilya, were bore away during the attack on the Elves of Eregion and hid. These Three could not be found by Sauron for reasons that will be discussed later in this writing. In this time Celebrimbor fell, Eregion was destroyed, the doors of Moria were shut, and Imladris (Rivendell) was founded by Elrond. Now with the majority of the Rings in his possesion they were delt to Men and Dwarves, though preverted before their giving._​
_That of the Mortals' Nine_​_Those who recieved a Ring of Power became mighty rulers of there time and amassed great wealt and fame. Though through the powers of their rings (which were never given from them to my knowledge) they had, seemingly, and undieing life that began to wear upon there hróar, causing them to slowly fade. Through the passes of time it came to pass that all Nine of these Men became thralls under Saurons control, though for some it took longer than others depending on their souls before recieving their Ring, and so were born the Nazgul._​
_The Failure of the Dwarven Seven_​_To seven Dwarfs Sauron gave over seven rings. Yet the Dwarves proved hard of will and not pulled into the treachory of their Rings, though each kept their Rings as the core of there treasure troaths(sp?), as well they were used only to amass wealth. So it was, that through the seeds of time Dragons either swallowed or laid upon each Dwarven Ring, save that of Thrór (which is a story for another time, for it has no relevance here)._​
_The Valiant Three_​_The Three were not given by Sauron, nor perverted by him save that of the knowledge used to craft them, for the Elves bore them away during the attack on Eregion and trusted them into the hands of the Wise. The Wise never wielded the Three while Sauron was in possesion of the One. So it was that Elrond, Galadriel, and Mithrandir (though passing through some others' hands) came to be in possesion of an Elven Ring. It was for these Three that Sauron's lust grew, for he desired greatly now to be the Lord of all that laid within ME, so the Black Years began._​
Please do forgive anything that I have left out, for I am tired and am paraphrasing for the sake of the reader.​
-Isthir​


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## Lantarion (Feb 13, 2004)

Isthir said:


> So it was that Sauron obtained Sixteen of the Nineteen Rings of Power


As you yourself point out, this is not the case because the Seven were not all obtained. But I see now that you meant he obtained them and gave them to the Dwarves, so nevermind. 


Isthir; "The Power of the Mortals' Nine" said:


> Those who recieved a Ring of Power became mighty rulers of there time and amassed great wealt and fame.


I recall no passage where it would state that the Úlairi were especially powerful or rich, expecially not due to the Nine Rings.. The men to whom the Ring were given were, I believe, said to have been 'lords', but the phrasing is ambiguous. Anyway, only the Seven had the power to accumulate wealth, and that was only because Sauron was not able to break the will of the Dwarves.


Isthir; "The Failure of the Dwarven Seven" said:


> So it was, that through the seeds of time Dragons either swallowed or laid upon each Dwarven Ring, save that of Thrór (which is a story for another time, for it has no relevance here).


Sorry but I'm not a big fan of this chronicler style, especially when all that you are saying is known to everybody here. 
And as I remember, Sauron did in fact obtain as many as three of the Seven, so your claim that Thrór's would have been the only one left is false.


Isthir; "The Valiant Three" said:


> It was for these Three that Sauron's lust grew, for he desired greatly now to be the Lord of all that laid within ME, so the Black Years began.


You are probably correct, but I don't think Sauron was too worried abot them as they were subject to the One; and because he was in possession of the One at the time, _and_ knew that while he wore it the Three would not be used, he was pretty much home and clear.


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## Hirila (Feb 13, 2004)

Here are my two cents for the discussion:



> the Ruling Ring was off of his finger and safely kept in Barad-dur somewhere


This fits into my ways of thinking, that the One Ring had immense power, not only when it was on the finger of Sauron. I think that the word "possession" here means only "possession", wherever the thing, i.e. the Ring actually was. As long as it was guarded in Sauron's house, he could use his power, because from there it kind of affected him, strengened him.
Maybe its effect is related to proximity. So when Sauron was on Numenor, far away from the Ring, his power was lightly decreased, else he could have taken over the island sooner, who knows. And when he actually laid his hands on the metal, his power was strongest.
And even if he was only an evil spirit without physical body, he still had the Ring enough to him, to use its power.

As for the other Rings... Obviously they all gave the person that wore them great power. And some of that power turned into evil. (As for the Nine and the Seven.)
The Three, however, were given to the Elves right after being made. One to Galadriel, two to Gil-Galad, who gave one to Elrond on the instant, and one to Cirdan later, by which way it came to Gandalf. But that's not the point.

My point is, to bring a new twist in this discussion, that even the Three had the power to be evil. Though they were never used to that purpose, all of them could have been corrupted easily, had they not been hidden from Sauron and had they not been made without his awareness.
The Ring of Earth: Earth is the mother of life. Flowers and other plants grow on it, nourishing all that live. But it also has immens destructive power. It quakes, it dries out so everything living on it dies, because there is nothing left to eat.
The Ring of Water: Water is as essential to life as is earth, but it also comes from the sea in great storms and leaves the shores in ruin, it comes in floods, so everything drowns.
The Ring of Fire: Here, the main power may actually be destructive, but it also contains a good side. Fire burns, and thus purifies. Silver for example. It leaves the earth burnt, black and desolate, but from the ashes comes new life, stronger as before, as it had to fight its way through the ashen layers. It is a fire, that loves, that drives passion, that creates new things.

So like always, good and evil lie very close to each other, and without the one, the other cannot exist. (That is, why with the destruction of the One Ring, the Three also lost their power, having lost their evil counterpart.)


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## Lantarion (Feb 13, 2004)

Hehe you posted exactly when I did Hirila! 


Hirila said:


> Maybe its effect is related to proximity


Undoubtedly; but I believe it is more specifically a matter of physical contact. The Ring was in its entirety a physical entity in the Seen world, even though Sauron's power (which I assume would have been 'visible' in the Unseen; what a paradox) was not, and so I would conclude that to have access to the power stored in the Ring Sauron would have to have a physical from which which to wear it. But you have a point aobut the proximity question, because even when Sméagol didn't touch the Ring he desired it because its malice did not require physical interaction to begin. 


Hirila said:


> So when Sauron was on Numenor, far away from the Ring, his power was lightly decreased


Sauron actually had the Ring with him when he was in Númenor. 


Hirila said:


> As for the other Rings... Obviously they all gave the person that wore them great power.


Well I suppose so; but what I believe is that, like the One, the Three only enhanced the inherent powers and strength of the wielder. When Gandalf had Narya, he was able through his Ainuric essense to create living fire; Galadriel probably used Nenya to 'work' her Mirror and trap the light of Eärendil into water, and Elrond controlled the Bruinen. But all of these poeple were either Noldor, Peredhil or Maia, so they would all have considerably strong _fëar_ to begin with, which the Rings would only enhance. (*This is still only a theory* )


Hirila said:


> And some of that power turned into evil. (As for the Nine and the Seven.)


How was the Seven turned to evil? They were used to amass wealth, but that ins't evil in itself.. I'mprobably missing something here..  


Hirila said:


> The Ring of Earth


Um there actually is no Ring of Earth; Vilya is the Ring of Air, and Water and Fire are the other two. 


Hirila said:


> So like always, good and evil lie very close to each other, and without the one, the other cannot exist. (That is, why with the destruction of the One Ring, the Three also lost their power, having lost their evil counterpart.)


Ah now this is very interesting! This I would agree with, not only because I agree with the whole Taoist idea of opposites but also because we witness the loss of power in the Three when the One is destroyed. Fantastic point Hirila!


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## Isthir (Feb 13, 2004)

Lantarion said:


> As you yourself point out, this is not the case because the Seven were not all obtained.


 
You are correct that all the Seven were not recovered, but the I made statement is made about when Eregion was assailed during the time that the Elves had in their possession all Nineteen of the Rings of Power, hence that it came to pass that Sauron came into possession of Sixteen of the Nineteen.​




Lantarion said:


> I recall no passage where it would state that the Úlairi were especially powerful or rich, expecially not due to the Nine Rings..


​

Then let me provide one for you:​




> _From The Silmarillion: Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age_


​


> Men proved easier to ensnare. Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old. They obtained glory and great wealth, yet it turned to their undoing.​


​




Lantarion said:


> And as I remember, Sauron did in fact obtain as many as three of the Seven, so your claim that Thrór's would have been the only one left is false.


​

This indeed is true, which is why I put the little disclaimer at the bottom of the post, for I was having trouble with my memory, but was on a mission to get the post done. For that I am sorry, and bravo.​




Lantarion said:


> You are probably correct, but I don't think Sauron was too worried abot them as they were subject to the One; and because he was in possession of the One at the time, _and_ knew that while he wore it the Three would not be used, he was pretty much home and clear.


​

I never stated that Sauron was worried about them; I said that he lusted for them. He desired them for many reasons that I can only speculate at, but most of all he wished to ensnare the Firstborn.​


I wrote this not of my own style so that it may help it be understood,​
Isthir​


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## Hirila (Feb 13, 2004)

It is air? Not earth?
I am sorry... I seem not to be able to remember that. And when I think of Elrond I alwys think of earth... Don't ask me why.

And the seven... I guess I wasn't really clear about them. I meant, that they turned out to belong to the evil side in that their owners and their realms were all kind of destroyed. As were the rings if they didn't get lost or retrieved by Sauron. So I consider them to have turned out evil in the end.


Lantarion, your post leads me to another question, concerning the powers of the Rings, and I mean all Rings.


> the Three only enhanced the inherent powers and strength of the wielder.





> Men proved easier to ensnare. Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old. They obtained glory and great wealth, yet it turned to their undoing



If the Three really only enhanced already existing dispositions, then we would have to assume, that Gandlaf had been a "fireworker" all the time, that Galadriel always had loved water and that Elrond, was attached to the air. (  ) That the dwarves are by nature greedy and that men sought for power, wealth and glory.

But what if not?
Could it be, that the Rings were made to boost certain dispositions of the maker. 
That way the One Ring would have been evil, because Sauron was evil. The Seven and the Nine would have led to an evil end, because the evil spirit of Sauron was involved in their making. And the Three are attached to three elements, because the elves are attached to the elements. And the Ringbearers then took a liking in "their" element after they had received "their" Ring.
(I don't want to discuss whether there should have been a fourth ring, a Ring of Earth, when there are already three of the four elements present. Remember? Fire, Water, Air, and Earth. That's for another thread.)


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## Isthir (Feb 14, 2004)

Hirila said:


> If the Three really only enhanced already existing dispositions, then we would have to assume, that Gandlaf had been a "fireworker" all the time, that Galadriel always had loved water and that Elrond, was attached to the air. (  ) That the dwarves are by nature greedy and that men sought for power, wealth and glory.
> 
> But what if not?
> Could it be, that the Rings were made to boost certain dispositions of the maker.
> ...


A very good question indeed, one to which there are many possible answers, yet I shall state my own reply as to which I feel most strongly towards. I feel that bot possibilties can co-exist. For it is true in all times that Men have always been power hungry, as well it is true that the Dwarves have always been greedy (speaking of the Race as a whole, not singular Dwarves). As for the mentions of Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel I shall revert to my past style of writing, for it provides me with the ability to put that which is in my mind down as something that one can, for the most part, understand.​
*Of Gandalf*​_To fully understand the Grey Wanderer we must go back to the beginings of his mission within ME. Olórin was his name to the Valar, and was called upon by Manwë while the Powers were deciding whom they would send to aid the Free Peoples of ME, even if just as Messangers. It is even further stated that Olórin can be related to Manwë and Varda (who is the Lady of the Stars and Light, and ever at Manwë's side). Further in depth let us look at the powers of these two, and the reason that Olórin was chosen to be amongst the Istari._​
_¤ Manwë: The most dear to Eru who understands his purposes in the most light. As appointed, he was the Lord of Arda and ruler of all that it held; but in the Breath of Arda (the air) was his heart. This love was not only for the air and winds, but of the birds that thrived within this air as well._​_¤ Varda: The beautiful Lady of the Stars who still holds the light of Eru within her face. This Lady's power is of, and most joyous of, light. It should be told here as well that before the Music Varda rejected Melkor and was hated (and feared) by Morgoth more than any other Vala._​_¤ Choice of Olórin: It is said that the choice could possibly explained that Olórin was a lover of the Eldar still in ME. As well it is stated that during the choosing Olórin was called forth by Manwë, but stated that he was weary and feared Sauron. To this Manwë simply stated that it was all the more reason for him to go._​
_Now if it was that Gandalf(Olórin) was originally a fire-wielder, it is said not (to my knowledge anyways), therefore it can only be speculated through his deeds, though all that were recorded were after receiving Narya. Therfore I leave the mystery of the effects of the Red Ring upon Mithrandir to the reader._​
As for that of Elrond and Galadriel I must ask the reader's pardon, for I indeed need to do more research into them before I can compose a true writing and explaination of them. Rest assured though, those writings shall come.​
-Isthir​


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## Lantarion (Feb 14, 2004)

Isthir said:


> Now if it was that Gandalf(Olórin) was originally a fire-wielder, it is said not (to my knowledge anyways), therefore it can only be speculated through his deeds, though all that were recorded were after receiving Narya. Therfore I leave the mystery of the effects of the Red Ring upon Mithrandir to the reader.


So basically, you don't know either.  That's cool, but it would be itneresting to hear people's, including your, speculations. When you say you "Leave it to the reader", do you exclude yourself? 


Isthir said:


> As for that of Elrond and Galadriel I must ask the reader's pardon, for I indeed need to do more research into them before I can compose a true writing and explaination of them. Rest assured though, those writings shall come.


By explanation do you mean your theory as to the Rings Vilya and Nenya? That would be nice to hear; but if you are thikning of giving us a synopsis of the lives of these people, I think that is a little unnecessary.  Everything that is connected should of course be presented, but we don't need all that background info because we are already aware of it. 

And now that you mention it, I would say that Gandalf was not a fire-wilder, or indeed the wielder of any real destructive force by nature; and this, I believe, applies to all Maiar. The more powerful ones might be able to take the form of sheer destruction, like the Valaraukar, but the Istari were not powerful Maiar, and so I would deduce that it was for the most part due to Narya that gandalf had such a command over fire.
Hirila your point about the Rings enhancing those parts of the wielder which are already there is interesting, I would agree.  But I would also say that if anybody of lesser stature than the Wise or a Maia put on one of the Three, they would not be able to control it properly; or perhaps it would not enhance the inherent strengths in that person enough? What a difficult subject!

Oh and Isthir thank you for that quote, I had forgotten it.


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## Grond (Feb 14, 2004)

> _originally posted by Lanty,_
> Sauron actually had the Ring with him when he was in Númenor.


I am assuming the smiley face is added due to the fact that there are conflicting accounts (by the author) of whether Sauron was possessed of the Ruling Ring while he was on his Numenorean vacation.

Isthir... there was also rumour and legend among the Dwarves that the Ring of Durin was never sullied by Sauron and was given to him directly by Celebrimbor. (Of course it would still be subject to the One!) And, when Sauron attacked Eregion, Durin closed the gates of Moria and the Dwarves were protected from that attack. Of course, I am equally convinced that regardless of it origin, Sauron did ultimately possess Durin's Ring when Moria was finally taken.

I am also equally convinced that Gandalf had no inherent fire abilities and that his "expertise" with fire, fireworks and the like, were direct "powers" from the Ring he wore.


> _from The Fellowship of the Ring, A Conspiracy Unmasked,_
> ...'You cannot pass,' he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence
> fell. 'I am a servant of the Secret Fire, *wielder of the flame of Anor.* You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udyn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.'...
> ... At that moment Gandalf lifted his staff, and crying aloud he smote the bridge before him.The staff broke asunder and fell from his hand. *A blinding sheet of white flame sprang up.* The bridge cracked. Right at the Balrog's feet it broke, and the stone upon which it stood crashed into the gulf, while the rest remained, poised, quivering like a tongue of rock thrust out into emptiness.


While their have been several debates on the exact nature of the Flame of Anor, I have always felt that the Ring Narya was the "Flame of Anor". And before everyone goes off on how the Three were Rings of Preservation let us not forget that fire does destroy but it also purifies and renews... so there!!


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## Lantarion (Feb 14, 2004)

Grond, I am aware of the conflicting accounts, but my opinion is that he did have it with him. (Although the spirit-borne physical object thing is a little hard to grasp..)
About the Flame of Anor, yes I think you're right. What Gandalf basically says there is that he is the "wielder of the fire of the Sun", which is basically metaphorical imagery, referring to Narya. Gandalf wouldn't call the Flame Imperishable the 'Flame of Anor', because the Imperishable is far, far beyond anything of Arda. The 'Secret Fire', however, can be seen to mean the Flame Imperishable, as Gandalf with his fire-expertise combined with his good will and unwavering loyalty represent the goodwill of Eru. IMO anyway.


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## jallan (Feb 14, 2004)

Grond said:


> And we arrive smack dab back at the beginning of the problem most scholars have with Letter 211...


Can you demonstrate “most scholars”?


> How does a disembodied spirit manage to carry a "physical" Ruling Ring back to Mordor? Answer is that it doesn't.


But Tolkien’s answer was that it does. Whose answer takes precidence?


> I would imagine that Tolkien just didn't think out this response to Ms. Beare.


Tolkien obviously did think it out. That Tolkien saw the difficulty is clear when he states that one need not _boggle_ at accepting that the disemboded spirit could carry back that physical Ring on which much of its power depended.

From _Morgoth’s Ring_ (HoME 10), “Myths Transformed” _Text VIII, Orcs_, on Orc-formed Maiar:


> ... (or would not a very dwindled dead Orc-state be a poltergeist?)


Poltergeists are bodiless spirits that move physical objects. Sauron was more than an Orc-formed Maia, especially since much of power was transferred to the Ring but still remained accessible to him.


> Also there is this...No mention of a Ring here. Just cunning and knowledge. And there is no mention of the matter at all in CT's version of The Silmarillion. My quote from it is pretty clear. He went back to Barad-dur and again took up the Ring. If he's wearing a Ring in Numenor... why would it be necessary for him to "again take it up"???


A disembodied spirit would probably be unable to _wear_ the Ring. Also, wearing the Ring would alert the Elves that Sauron was still alive (or again alive).

But your citation is from “The Rings of Power and the Third Age”, a work for which Christopher Tolkien has provided no history.

A version of “The Rings of Power and the Third Age” existed by about 1948, the year in which Tolkien finished _The Lord of the Rings_ as it is mentioned in Letter 115 to Katherine Farrer as being mislaid. This work was likely written very soon after completion of _The Lord of the Rings_ and perhaps never subsequently revised. The Milton Waldman letter dates to 1950. The letter to Rhona Beare was written in 1958 and states Tolkien’s thoughts when the matter was called to his attention. Possibly he had not considered the matter before. Originally there was no Ring in the story of Sauron and Númenor.

But his explanation there does not conflict with anything previously written.

The suggestion that Ar-Pharazôn probably knew nothing about the Ring covers the problem that Ar-Pharazôn did not seek the Ring for himself and lack of mention of the Ring in Númenor in later tradition. That was Tolkien’s answer.


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## Inderjit S (Feb 14, 2004)

> Possibly he had not considered the matter before. Originally there was no Ring in the story of Sauron and Númenor.



Indeed, as far as I know the ring only acted as a catalyst in the increase of the trust of the Númenóreans and Pharazôn to Sauron. The original story of Thu and Tar-kalion and the Númenorean corruption needed no ring; it needed only the basic idea of Sauron lying and corrupting the Númenóreans, as was his original purpose.



> I am also equally convinced that Gandalf had no inherent fire abilities and that his "expertise" with fire, fireworks and the like, were direct "powers" from the Ring he wore.



Possibly. Elrond was able, by the power of the Ring, to released the flood of Bruinen, Galadriel to 'halt time' to speak in Lothlórien. (Though none of the other Elves know she has the ring, judging by Haldir's words, we can assume they had some inkling that she had some kind of power or 'secret' that Sauron may have been seeking for but could not find.

Gandalf needs of course materials with which to work with. He cannot burn snow and needs the faggot's to make fire on Caradhras. He also says some spells or incantations on Caradhras and when they party are attacked by Wargs on the hill.

He disintegrates Legolas's arrow, and 'heats up' Andruil as well as possessing some physic abilities, such as when he makes Legolas drop his bow, Gimli his axe and Denethor his sword. Are these abilities intrinsically part of Gandalf's nature or are they abilities that the ring gives him? Also note the magic he uses when rescuing Faramir.

And also, do we have to seek scientific explantions for everything Middle-Earth? Could not some pseudo-mythological argument be given in place of a scientifice one


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