# What caused the Balrog to awake?



## Ithrynluin (May 1, 2003)

The Dwarves awoke the Moria Balrog by delving too deep in Third Age 1940 - thereby follows their expulsion from Khazad-dum and the Balrog passes out of all knowledge until the journey of the Fellowship.

What roused the Moria Balrog from sleep?

Pippin throwing a stone into the well?

The Balrog sensing the presence of another Maia?

Was he somehow roused from afar by Sauron's influence?

The Orcs of Moria?

Or something else?

Should we even assume that the Balrog 'went to sleep' again after the Dwarves were scared off or was he simply waiting and 'lurking for prey' all this time?


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## FoolOfATook (May 1, 2003)

Couldn't the presence of the One Ring have also awoken him?


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## Ithrynluin (May 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by FoolOfATook _
> *Couldn't the presence of the One Ring have also awoken him? *



Thanks for reminding me FoaT. I knew I'd forget something. It has been added. 

And another option has been added at Nóm's insistence -'Tipped off by his ol' chum, the watcher in the water'


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## Elendil3119 (May 1, 2003)

I think that if the Balrog sensed the presence of Gandalf, he would have awoken much earlier in the journey of the Fellowship through Moria. Same goes for the presence of the One Ring. Since I don't believe that the Balrog was in league with Sauron, or even under his power to any great degree, I doubt that is the answer. My theory is: Pippen threw a stone into the well ---> this roused the orcs ---> the orcs roused Durin's Bane by their actions and noises. Of course, this might not be the case if the Balrog didn't go to sleep again after the evacuation of the Dwarves.


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## Ithrynluin (May 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Elendil3119 _
> *I think that if the Balrog sensed the presence of Gandalf, he would have awoken much earlier in the journey of the Fellowship through Moria.*



Well, that depends. How far do you think a Maia has to be to another Maia to sense its presence? And keep in mind that Gandalf _has_ been through Moria on one other occasion.
Also: If Maiar sense other Maiar, why didn't Gandalf get caught while spying out in Dol Guldur?



> My theory is: Pippen threw a stone into the well ---> this roused the orcs ---> the orcs roused Durin's Bane by their actions and noises.



So who did you vote for, the Orcs or Pippin?


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## Wynston (May 1, 2003)

Balrog are powerful but now all seeing all knowing. Chances are it just didn't know the Fellowship was there. I don't think that the Watcher alerted it either as I think it would have attacked sooner since the watcher knew about the Fellowship from the beginning.

I don't think the Balrog was really sleeping. After driving all the dwarves out, it probably had relatively little to do. (maybe some house cleaning or other Balrog stuff!) When Pippin threw the pebble down that aroused the orcs which in turn alerted the Balrog to the Fellowship's prescence. I think you could make the arguement that if Pippin had never thrown that pebble, or if the Fellowship was really really quiet the whole way, that Durin's Bane would never have know that they were there.


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## Elendil3119 (May 1, 2003)

> So who did you vote for, the Orcs or Pippin?


Pippin, since he started the chain-reaction.


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## FrankSinatra (May 1, 2003)

It was the balrog that caused the dwarves to flee (Durins Bane), so when exactly was he asleep?


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## BlackCaptain (May 1, 2003)

Pippin.

He caused the Orcs to get all rambuncious, wich caused the Balrog to get all hyper and start falling off bridges


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## FrankSinatra (May 1, 2003)

The orcs cowered and were afraid of it.


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## BlackCaptain (May 1, 2003)

Mabey... but a bunch of orcs screaming and yelling would wake a monster up...


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## Ithrynluin (May 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by FrankSinatra _
> *It was the balrog that caused the dwarves to flee (Durins Bane), so when exactly was he asleep? *



From _Appendix A; The Lord of the Rings;_:



> It came to pass that in the middle of the Third Age Durin was again its king, being the sixth of that name. The power of Sauron, servant of Morgoth, was then again growing in the world, though the Shadow in the Forest that looked towards Moria was not yet known for what it was. All evil things were stirring. The Dwarves delved deep at that time, seeking beneath Barazinbar for mithril, the metal beyond price that was becoming yearly ever harder to win. [color=sky blue]Thus they roused from sleep[/color] a thing of terror that, flying from Thangorodrim, had lain hidden at the foundations of the earth since the coming of the Host of the West: a Balrog of Morgoth. Durin was slain by it, and the year after Náin I, his son; and then the glory of Moria passed, and its people were destroyed or fled far away.



The Balrog was certainly sleeping from the beginning of the Second Age until Third Age 1980.

It is uncertain and debatable, however, whether it was sleeping between TA 1980 - 3019.

From _The Mirror of Galadriel_:



> 'It was a Balrog of Morgoth,' said Legolas; `of all elf-banes the most deadly, save the One who sits in the Dark Tower.'
> `Indeed I saw upon the bridge that which haunts our darkest dreams l saw Durin's Bane,' said Gimli in a low voice, and dread was in his eyes.
> 'Alas! ' said Celeborn. `[color=sky blue]We long have feared that under Caradhras a terror slept. But had I known that the Dwarves had stirred up this evil in Moria again[/color], l would have forbidden you to pass the northern borders, you and all that went with you. And if it were possible, one would say that at the last Gandalf fell from wisdom into folly, going needlessly into the net of Moria.'



I guess this passage could be interpreted either way and it doesn't tell us clearly whether the Balrog had been sleeping or not. My guess is that the Balrog *had* been sleeping, since Balin's company succeeded in establishing a colony (though for a short time - it was destroyed by Orcs).


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## DurinLongBeard (May 1, 2003)

I'm gonna go with B-C on this one. A bunch of orcs pounding a huge drum would sure wake me up


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## Ithrynluin (May 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DurinLongBeard _
> *I'm gonna go with B-C on this one. A bunch of orcs pounding a huge drum would sure wake me up *



But isn't it strange that the Balrog wasn't roused by all the rucus caused by the Dwarves in the Second Age, when they had dealings with the Elves of Eregion, and even Galadriel passed through Moria then. That must have drawn some attention.


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## DurinLongBeard (May 1, 2003)

Good point. I'm at a lost for an explanation. Possibly the "lair" of the balrog was so far down that it wasn't arisen until they got a certain distance away explaining why he did not wake earlier. And in the time after Balin & Co. had been taken care of he had become used to the quiet and the booming drums woke him up once more?


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## FrankSinatra (May 1, 2003)

I think you are reading it wrong.

I dont think it mean physically 'awake' or 'asleep', like someone setting an alarm clock.

'Sleep' means, unaware of the world, unaware of how to get out, and unaware of anyone else being around.

Sort of like solitary confinement.


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## Eriol (May 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *But isn't it strange that the Balrog wasn't roused by all the rucus caused by the Dwarves in the Second Age, when they had dealings with the Elves of Eregion, and even Galadriel passed through Moria then. That must have drawn some attention. *



I've always assumed that the activity of the Dwarves opened up some chamber which was until then out of reach. The Balrog was unable to attack them until that moment.

As for the poll, I think the presence of Mordor orcs in Moria sways me to say "Sauron's influence from afar"... in the shape of iron-shod Uruks!


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## Lantarion (May 2, 2003)

It surprises me that so far everybody has assumed that the Balrog only actually 'awoke' after Pippin dropped the stone into the well (though not necessarily because of that, which is what this thread is about! ); couldn't it be that the Balrog had been 'awake' for quite some time, and that he didn't actually mind the Orcs at all? Perhaps Sauron had heard that there was a balrog in Moria, and had sent the Orcs to send it greetings from him (Sauron couldn't very well fly from Barad-dûr to meet him in person!)? 

But this Second Age business is confusing.. Did Tolkien mention it in any of his Letters, or in HoME?


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## Gil-Galad (May 2, 2003)

My personal opinion is that the Balrog felt Gandalf's presence.They both were Maiar and each of them could feel the presence ot the other I suppose.


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## Ithrynluin (May 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Gil-Galad _
> *My personal opinion is that the Balrog felt Gandalf's presence.They both were Maiar and each of them could feel the presence ot the other I suppose. *



How would you explain the Balrog not sensing Gandalf on Gandalf's previous journey then? Or Gandalf's expedition to Dol Guldur?


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## Gil-Galad (May 2, 2003)

Well,in Dol Guldur is not in Moria,is it?So I suppose the Balrog felt Gandalf's presence when he was in Moria,enough close to him.


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## Ithrynluin (May 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Gil-Galad _
> *Well,in Dol Guldur is not in Moria,is it?So I suppose the Balrog felt Gandalf's presence when he was in Moria,enough close to him. *



What I meant was this: Gandalf had journeyed through Moria once before - how did the Balrog not feel his presence then (and vice versa)?
Regarding Dol Guldur, why didn't Sauron feel Gandalf's presence there, if we are to go by the premise that Maiar can sense each other...


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## Anárion (May 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *What I meant was this: Gandalf had journeyed through Moria once before - how did the Balrog not feel his presence then (and vice versa)?
> Regarding Dol Guldur, why didn't Sauron feel Gandalf's presence there, if we are to go by the premise that Maiar can sense each other... *



Great, now were getting into the presence thing. I think the Balrog is a big fat slow dumb firey thing. It cant sense another Maiar. Otherwise, Sauron would have known when the ring was right under his nose in Mordor. I think he was feeding on the orcs and haveing a good time throwing them off cliffs and stuff, and he heard a big commotion so he went to check it out. He saw millions of orcs surrounding these poor travelers, and decided to help. They ran away but he wanted to befriend them and got some of his tasty dwarf meat that he put in his refridgerator. He walked up to Gandalf and pulled out his knife to cut the meat. He accidently missed and hit Gandalf, but thank goodness he survived. Gandalf then was very evil and broke the bridge and the balrog fell down and went boom 
Thats what REALLY happened.


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## Ithrynluin (May 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Anárion _
> *Great, now were getting into the presence thing. I think the Balrog is a big fat slow dumb firey thing. *



Hmmm...I don't think the Balrog was 'dumb'. Countering Gandalf's spell indicates intelligence IMHO.



> It cant sense another Maiar. Otherwise, Sauron would have known when the ring was right under his nose in Mordor.



What do you mean? The Ring is not a Maia!



> Thats what REALLY happened.



Nice explanation.


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## Anárion (May 3, 2003)

Thanks.
Maybe the ring wasnt a Maia, however, I think Sauron, being this all powerful evil sorcerer thing, should be able to sense the ring that HE made when its right under his nose. I know he was busy plotting the downfall of Gondor, Rohan (sense Saruman couldnt get the job done), Lorien, Mirkwood, Erebor, Rivendell, Eraidor, and who knows what other "good" people dwelling on the land that should be rightfully his .
Besides, Gandalf didnt really put out a spell, it was more for defense so the Balrog's sword/knife didnt cleave him in two.
It doesnt take much intellegence just to swing a sword...


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## Ithrynluin (May 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Anárion _
> *Besides, Gandalf didnt really put out a spell, it was more for defense so the Balrog's sword/knife didnt cleave him in two.
> It doesnt take much intellegence just to swing a sword... *



From _The Bridge of Khazad-dum_:



> `Do as I say! ' said Gandalf fiercely. `Swords are no more use here. Go!'
> ...
> Gandalf came flying down the steps and fell to the ground in the midst of the Company.
> `Well, well! That's over! ' said the wizard struggling to his feet. `I have done all that I could. But I have met my match, and have nearly been destroyed.
> ...



Something that is a match for Gandalf (and not just _physically_) is certainly intelligent and not only 'able to swing a sword' like you say. It takes intelligence and cunning to know a terrible counter spell that nearly breaks a fellow Maia.


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## Anárion (May 3, 2003)

I stand corrected. The Balrog must be smart if he can do all that. However, his looks are deceiving, you must admit, he doesnt LOOK smart.


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## Beleg (May 19, 2003)

> I've always assumed that the activity of the Dwarves opened up some chamber which was until then out of reach.



The Question is how did the Balrog then reached that far, offshot vault or place? Was he shut in by a Cave in? That seems highly unlikely...


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## Ithrynluin (May 19, 2003)

I've finally decided to go with the presence of the One Ring which drew all evil to it. It just seems the most feasible explanation to me - I wonder why more people didn't vote though.


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## Elendil3119 (May 19, 2003)

But did the Ring have that kind of power when it was *not* being worn? If so, why was Gollum left unmolested by the evil forces in the Misty Mountains, or why was the Ring not found sooner in the Anduin? Also, if the Balrog sensed the Ring, why did he not attack sooner? I think it is more than coincidence that he attacked only after Pippin dropped the rock in the well and the orcs were roused.


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## Ithrynluin (May 19, 2003)

> But did the Ring have that kind of power when it was not being worn?



The Watcher in the Water sure didn't mind whether the Ring was worn or not. Of course we are not sure if it was attracted by the Ring in the first place, though I think that was the case...it was just a bit obvious IMO.

The ring also seems to be sentient, or at least seemed to have some of Sauron's 'disposition' in it and at all times wanted to betray the wearer and attract a new one (possibly one that would yield the Ring to Sauron). Remind yourself of Isildur.ž



> If so, why was Gollum left unmolested by the evil forces in the Misty Mountains



Unmolested when? Unmolested by whom?



> why was the Ring not found sooner in the Anduin



The Ring does seem to have _some_ of Sauron's will within, but still it is only an object - it has no extremities and can't just go traipsing out of the Anduin on its own and besides, it was lying at the bottom of the Anduin which might have rendered its 'evil call' less heard to anyone.



> Also, if the Balrog sensed the Ring, why did he not attack sooner?



Yet again, who knows at what distance the Ring makes itself 'heard'... Who knows when the Balrog sensed it, how long it took to get to the Fellowship; Why would the Balrog attack the Fellowship at the very beginning of Moria, if it seemed to have made an abode in the Eastern End? etc etc etc...

The Pippin/Orcs options are not too bad, this one seems more plausible though. Besides, is one little rock really enough to rouse a great Valarauko from sleep? That would be like a fly rousing a bear from its hibernation.


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## Elendil3119 (May 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *The Watcher in the Water sure didn't mind whether the Ring was worn or not. Of course we are not sure if it was attracted by the Ring in the first place, though I think that was the case...it was just a bit obvious IMO.
> 
> The ring also seems to be sentient, or at least seemed to have some of Sauron's 'disposition' in it and at all times wanted to betray the wearer and attract a new one (possibly one that would yield the Ring to Sauron). Remind yourself of Isildur.*


As you said, we don't _know_ that the Watcher was awakened by the Ring. This can't really be used as "evidence" to prove that the Balrog was awakened by the Ring. 


> Unmolested when? Unmolested by whom?


My point is that even though Gollum possessed the Ring and wore it often, the Orcs in the Misty Mountains most likely did not know that Gollum had the Ring. One interesting question that needs to be brought up is whether the Ring can be 'sensed' by all forces of evil, or just the servants of Sauron. 





> The Ring does seem to have _some_ of Sauron's will within, but still it is only an object - it has no extremities and can't just go traipsing out of the Anduin on its own and besides, it was lying at the bottom of the Anduin which might have rendered its 'evil call' less heard to anyone.


I never said that the Ring would magic its own way out of the Anduin, but there were orcs only feet away from the river, and yet they did not 'sense' the Ring. If they had, I believe they would have at least made an effort to recover it. 


> Yet again, who knows at what distance the Ring makes itself 'heard'... Who knows when the Balrog sensed it, how long it took to get to the Fellowship; Why would the Balrog attack the Fellowship at the very beginning of Moria, if it seemed to have made an abode in the Eastern End? etc etc etc...


It seems to me that you say something to disprove my theory, and then contradict yourself to prove yours.  


> The Pippin/Orcs options are not too bad, this one seems more plausible though. Besides, is one little rock really enough to rouse a great Valarauko from sleep? That would be like a fly rousing a bear from its hibernation.


The rock that Pippin threw into the well was probably not enough on its own to awaken the Balrog, but it cause a chain-reaction. Pippin threw the rock into the well ---> the orcs were roused ---> the commotion they made woke the Balrog. Simple as that.


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## Ithrynluin (May 19, 2003)

> My point is that even though Gollum possessed the Ring and wore it often, the Orcs in the Misty Mountains most likely did not know that Gollum had the Ring.



Why is that 'most likely'? Who's to say they weren't drawn to it, even though they could not point the source of this strange attraction, which was in fact on Gollum's finger.
Since Gollum used the ring whenever he ventured a bit further from his little isle, the Orcs would hardly even be aware of his existence. 



> As you said, we don't know that the Watcher was awakened by the Ring. This can't really be used as "evidence" to prove that the Balrog was awakened by the Ring.



The fact that the Watcher grabbed Frodo first of all the company works well for my case. What 'evidence' do you have to disprove this?



> I never said that the Ring would magic its own way out of the Anduin, but there were orcs only feet away from the river, and yet they did not 'sense' the Ring. If they had, I believe they would have at least made an effort to recover it.



Like I said, depends on the distance the Ring 'worked' in. The Ring lay _at the bottom of the *Great* River. Even if the Ring had called to the Orcs to retrieve it, how keen do you think they would be at the thought of even touching water, let alone dive in it? It also depends on the strength of the person. The more powerful the person, the more the Ring will try to get to that person and corrupt them.




It seems to me that you say something to disprove my theory, and then contradict yourself to prove yours.

Click to expand...


I am merely putting forth questions since the option I chose is full of ifs.




The rock that Pippin threw into the well was probably not enough on its own to awaken the Balrog, but it cause a chain-reaction. Pippin threw the rock into the well ---> the orcs were roused ---> the commotion they made woke the Balrog. Simple as that.

Click to expand...


The Orcs were roused from what? Sleep? How come the Balrog wasn't roused by them on a previous occasion then? I'm not so sure Orcs were the answer._


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## Lantarion (May 20, 2003)

After some meditation, I agree with ithryn's theory that the Ring draws evil to it. It did hold a large part of Sauron's spirit, and as Sauron was the most powerful Maia in the service of Melkor, and the most powerful creature in Middle-earth at the end of the Third Age (barring, perhaps, Gandalf _the White_), and as he was probably the most corrupt Maia of them all (and therefore wholly evil), I can certainly see his detached spirit drawing others evils towards it.


> _Originally posted by Elendil3119_
> The rock that Pippin threw into the well was probably not enough on its own to awaken the Balrog, but it cause a chain-reaction. Pippin threw the rock into the well ---> the orcs were roused ---> the commotion they made woke the Balrog. Simple as that.


That is one theory, but I have a feeling the Balrog would crush just aobut every Orc in sight when he accidentally woke: at least I would be really angry if I had been trapped in some stone prison for thousands of years!
I think the Balrog was awake before the Fellowship entered Moria, and that he 'sent' the Watcher in the Water to the waters in front of the Gate (which the Orcs had probably dammed). After all, even though we don't know what the Watcher was, I thikn the Balrog was higher in stature than it, and was therefore in a position to control or order it. 
Now this is only a suggestion, but maybe when Sauron sent a huge troop of Orcs to slaughter Balin and his little colony-builders, they found the Balrog. Now maybe they woke it, or maybe they didn't. Anyway, then they would have obviously sent word to Sauron, who could have sent his spirit out somehow (like he did when his 'Eye' roved around Amon Hen) and 'recruited' the Balrog.

Just a theory though; tell me what you think!


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## Arvedui (May 20, 2003)

I think:
The Watcher in the Water was there before the Fellowship came even close to Moria. Remember the Red Book of Mazarbul and what Gandalf read from it:


> The last lines run _ the pool is up to the wall at Westgate. The Watcher in the Water took Óin. We cannot get out._


That should take care of that question, should it not? 

I believe that the Balrog did not go to sleep again after it was roused by the deep-digging dwarves. The question as I see it in this case is: what roused it to come after the Fellowship?
Anyone remember Aragorn's words to Gandalf, after G. had decided to go through Moria?:


> I will follow your lead now - if this last warning does not move you. It is not for the Ring, nor of us others that I am thinking now, but of you, Gandalf. And I say to you: if you pass the doors of Moria, beware!


Aragorn is not 'just some Man.' He is of pure Númenórean blood, and have some gift of foresight, or at least a bad feeling about Gandalf entering Moria.

So here is my theory:
The reason the Balrog was aroused, was a combination of three or four different things happening at about the same time. First, the Balrog senses that very strong powers are coming closer. Gandalf and the Ring. The Balrog is pure evil, and as such will be able to sence when one fellow Maia is coming near, especially when this Maia is pure good, such as Gandalf. It wouldn't surprise me if the Balrog had some extra sensitivity towards Maiar, after the War of Wrath, from which he once fled and hid. The Ring already has the ability to draw to itself all evil, and I would suppose that a Balrog were more capable of sensing the One Ring, that a bunch of Orcs.
So, when the presence of Gandalf and The One Ring had aroused its suspicion, the noice from Pippin dropping the stone, and the calamity of the Orcs was the final touch in making the Balrog come forward.

Remember also that the orcs of Moria was nowhere as afraid of the Balrog in the book, as they seemed to be in Mr. Jackson's interpretation.


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## BlackCaptain (May 20, 2003)

Wow... I'm surprised at all the scholarly answers in here... But I myself think it's quite simple that Pippin's stone throwing, caused the orcs to get all rambuncsuios, which caused the Balrog to wake up cuz of all the screaming orcs. Quite simple really. But of course I'm sure that we have to go and debate the state of the Ring and the Maiar and all that technical stuff...


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## Ithrynluin (May 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Arvedui _
> *The Balrog is pure evil, and as such will be able to sence when one fellow Maia is coming near, especially when this Maia is pure good, such as Gandalf. *



I already brought this up on the previous page, but I'll do it again. If Maiar are able to sense other Maiar, why:

1. Didn't the Balrog sense Gandalf and attack him once before when Gandalf was journeying through Moria?

2. Did Gandalf go unnoticed when he spied out Dol Guldur? Now one could argue that Sauron was aware of him, but let him go because there was nothing really that important that Gandalf could learn. Also, the Mouth of Sauron states that Sauron was aware of Gandalf's webes, which also indicates that Sauron could have been aware of Gandalf's presence in Dol Guldur. The thing that really bothers though, is I can't imagine why, if he was aware of Gandalf, would Sauron let go his most dangerous enemy, who would eventually plot his downfall!?


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## Arvedui (May 20, 2003)

1) Because Gandalf was alone, and the other mentioned pieces were not in place. (The Ring, Pippin)

2) It could of course be that Sauron was not strong enough at that time. Perhaps he knew that he was unable to defeat Gandalf at the time?


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## Ithrynluin (May 20, 2003)

> 2) It could of course be that Sauron was not strong enough at that time. Perhaps he knew that he was unable to defeat Gandalf at the time?



Gandalf entered Dol Guldur in 2850 - about 1850 years have passed since Sauron first 'stirred' again - and this time seems sufficient enough for him to make himself powerful again. Besides, Sauron had an army in Dol Guldur. Surely Gandalf couldn't have resisted a whole army, even if Sauron was unwilling to fight him himself.


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## Arvedui (May 20, 2003)

Got me there 
But Sauron would at least have an interest in not rousing the suspicion of the White council at the time.
(Last string of hope????)


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## Ithrynluin (May 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Arvedui _
> *But Sauron would at least have an interest in not rousing the suspicion of the White council at the time.
> (Last string of hope????) *



I agree, but still making Gandalf captive would have been a better solution than letting him go with only Eru knows what knowledge he obtained. Which makes me believe that Maiar can't sense other Maiar (as much as I like this thought, and would want to believe it! ), and that the Balrog of Moria was stirred chiefly by the presence of the One.


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## Eriol (May 20, 2003)

After reading through all the posts, these are my views:

a) Maiar can't sense other Maiar. The "Gandalf mission" in Dol Guldur was of the utmost importance, perhaps a turning point in the history of the Middle-Earth, for there he acquired Thráin's map and key. As stated in "The Quest of Erebor", UT, we can't even imagine what Sauron would do with a dragon at his disposal, and without Thráin's map and key Smaug would still be alive. Of course Sauron would have imprisoned Gandalf if he had sensed it in some way.

b) The presence of orcs from Mordor, and the movement of orcs to Moria witnessed by the Elves of Lórien before the fellowship arrived, lead me to think that Sauron was attempting to stop the Fellowship there and then. _IF_ he was aware of the Balrog -- a big If -- I think it is clear that the Balrog would be a part of this operation. If he was not aware of the Balrog, then I have no doubt the orcs from Mordor were in for a big surprise . Surely the Balrog assumed the command of these forces at this point.

c) Therefore, Pippin's stone was at best a signal to the Fellowship's location within Moria. Remember, Moria was HUGE. It is quite possible that they would escape surveillance if there had been no stone... HOWEVER, to say that the stone was the main reason for the attack on the Fellowship would be wrong due to these Orc movements. Sauron knew about the Fellowship, he knew about the route they were taking (he could reason as well as Gandalf did regarding the Gap of Rohan, the North Pass, etc. He could foresee the Fellowship movements under the assumption that they were headed for Minas Tirith). There is no doubt in my mind that the attack was planned by Sauron, and Pippin's stone was, at best, a spark.


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## Ithrynluin (May 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Eriol _
> *c) Sauron knew about the Fellowship, he knew about the route they were taking (he could reason as well as Gandalf did regarding the Gap of Rohan, the North Pass, etc. He could foresee the Fellowship movements under the assumption that they were headed for Minas Tirith). There is no doubt in my mind that the attack was planned by Sauron, and Pippin's stone was, at best, a spark. *



How did Sauron know about the Fellowship? I don't think he did at least not fully, and therefore couldn't be aware of the Fellowship's exact movements. I agree that he would discard the option of the Gap of Rohan, but why the High Pass? Or Caradhras? Or did he maybe have a force ready at all those places? Hmmm...


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## Eriol (May 20, 2003)

My mistake -- I should have made myself clearer. He only had to guard the access to Lórien. It was quite obvious that the Fellowship was going to Lórien once the Gap is disregarded. Therefore, a garrison in Mória, keeping an eye on the Dimrill Stair, would do the trick. As for the North Pass, that's a matter for scouts -- if the Fellowship chose that route they would be observed a long time before they approached Lórien, and the same garrison could intercept them. (There is a quote in "The Ring goes South" explaining that, as the Anduin Vale is open and more easily spied by Sauron's scouts than the country to the west of the Misty Mountains.)


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## Elendil3119 (May 20, 2003)

Your theory makes sense, Eriol.

Sauron had spies and scouts in the north:


> 'You should fear the many eyes of the servants of Sauron,' he said. 'I do not doubt that news of the discomfiture of the Riders has already reached him, and he will be filled with wrath. Soon now his spies on foot and wing will be abroad in the northern lands. Even of the sky above you must beware
> as you go on your way.' *[The Ring Goes South]*


He also sent orcs to Moria:


> 'There are Orcs, very many of them,' he said. 'And some are large and evil: black Uruks of Mordor.' *[The Bridge of Khazad-Dum]*


Maybe Sauron sent some of his orcs to act as 'commanders' to muster and organize the orcs of Moria. I also like the theory that Pippin's rock was mostly a signal to the orcs of the location of the Fellowship. But the question remains, did Sauron know about the Balrog of Moria? Or did he plan on intercepting and attacking the Fellowship with only orcs?


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## Arvedui (May 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *I agree, but still making Gandalf captive would have been a better solution than letting him go with only Eru knows what knowledge he obtained. Which makes me believe that Maiar can't sense other Maiar (as much as I like this thought, and would want to believe it! ), and that the Balrog of Moria was stirred chiefly by the presence of the One. *


I don't know if I agree with you. I think Maiar can sense other Maiar.
Is this statement familiar to you:


> Arvedui and FrankSinatra, you've missed my point. What does the struggle between Gandalf and Sauron have to do with anything?These two are Maiar, and according to HoME XI; Quendi and Eldar the Ainur are able to transmit thought without using words, so I don't see any problem here, nor have I denied that Gandalf didn't struggle with Sauron. There is not much evidence that Ringbearers could communicate.


I copied this from another thread.
If the Ainur are able to transmit without using words, then why is it that they are not able to sense one-anothers presence? My opinion is that they have that ability.


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## Ithrynluin (May 21, 2003)

To speak with someone you would have to know there location, and the process of speech and reaching out to another mind, is willing. Both sides have to 'agree' on wanting to converse. _Sensing_ someone would have nothing to do with whether a person wants to be sensed or not - they JUST WOULD sense one another, and I don't see that happening. Why is it that the Valar did not sense Melkor (and Ungoliant?) approaching the Two Trees with the intention of destroying them? I'm still convinced the Ainur can't just sense other Ainur.


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## Arvedui (May 22, 2003)

And I am still convinced that they can.

This is one of the things that are so great about Tolkien: I have one opinion, you have another. And we are both right.


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## Ithrynluin (May 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Arvedui _
> * And we are both right. *



You sure 'bout that?  

Surely the Valar would sense Melkor so close to them then? How do you explain that?


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## Arvedui (May 22, 2003)

They were having a party, and had been drinking to much Entdraught


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## Lantarion (May 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Arvedui_
> They were having a party, and had been drinking to much Entdraught


_Limpë_, you mean!


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## Arvedui (May 22, 2003)

Actually I was thinking of _miruvor_ , but I couldn't find the correct spelling when I replied.


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## HLGStrider (May 22, 2003)

Elgee raises a shy little hand. . .

Check out my new thread on a connected topic "Balrog and Ballin."

It sort of gives my opinon.

I think he was awake, ready to attack anything that invaded, and that the combination of the stone, all that commotion, and such a good chance to have some fun roused his desire to destroy.

Two posts to 4,000 . . .you guys better start praying for mercy.


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## Alatar (Apr 11, 2005)

Wow what a great thread, I think it is time for it to be reborn.
IMO this is how the timeline works...
Khazad-dum founded->Balrog flees from war of wrath->Balrog in the deeps of the mountains-> then his heat seals him in by melting the ore as he was having a gander at the mithril ore under carhadras-> Balrog extrimly annnoyed as the dwarves and elves do what they want->then in 1980 an dwarf uses his pick axe in the wrong cave-> Destruction of moria (balrog genrally having a good time killing dwarves-> one year later dwarves leg it-> balrog lonely-> he hears that some wizard was in his lair and then during the war of dwarves and orcs he was genrally having a good time and at the final battle he was about to go out into the sun and fight till the death till a slight knee injury stopped him->his mate the wacher says he will gaurd the west gate and the balrog can do the east->Balrog nips down to explore the deeps of the mountains till some dwarves show up(do they never learn) he gets to the chamber of records just in time to roast the dwarves(in fact he got one holding a book trying to rember the correct spelling of "they are comming, with a balrog" but the unlucky dwarf got roasted before he could->some orcs from morder show up and the Balrog agrees to stop the ring bearer if he comes his way->he hears the doors go down but thinks it is an earthquake->a orc says that a rock landed on himbut he takes no notice -> a orc says that a blindinding flash was seen-> he takes no notice but some orc go to see and get slaughtered so he shows up and sees the wizard he has a quick magic contest then the wizad blows up the chamber ( the balrog had to move pretty quick to avoid a braining->balrog legs it down stairs slipps of bridge and falls into the abyss


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## Ingwë (Apr 14, 2005)

Very interesting thread, really.

I think Sauron's influence from afar caused the Balrog to awake. He (the Balrog) didn't 'welcomed' the Fellowship when the entered Moria. It was waiting them near the exit of the mines. The evil creature attacked FGrodo before he enters Moria. Isn't it Sauron's influence?


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## Greenwood (Apr 24, 2005)

I hadn't seen this thread in its original activity two years ago. Clearly, the balrog was first awoken in 1980 TA by the dwarves mining deeply under the mountains for mithril. The books are pretty clear on this. The balrog may well have gone back to its resting place after driving out the dwarves. I am aware of the passage in Appendix A that describes the final battle of the war between the orcs and the dwarves at the east gate of Moria (2799 TA) at which time Dain says to Thrain: "Only I have looked through the shadow of the Gate. Beyond the shadow it waits for you still: Durin's Bane." Now this may mean that Dain actually saw the balrog waiting inside Moria, or it may be a premonition of what awaited the dwarves inside Moria. Certainly Tolkien has many of his characters have such premonitions. I find the evidence for the balrog being active at that time equivocal. If the balrog was active at that time it seems likely it went back to its resting place afterward. 

Gandalf says he passed through Moria (though I don't think we are ever told when) and he did not encounter the balrog. Aragorn also says he has been in Moria, but only the eastern side and he does not seem to have encountered the balrog. Balin and his folk reentered Moria in 2989 and live there for five years. Clearly, the balrog has not been constantly wandering the halls of Moria since its initial awakening by the dwarves. I think it likely that it was reawakened by Balin's folk in their mining for mithril. In the chapter "The Mirror of Galadriel" when Celeborn and Galadriel are told of Gandalf's fall, Celeborn says to Gimli: "But had I know that the *Dwarves had stirred up this evil in Moria again*, I would have forbidden you to pass the northern borderes, you and all that went with you." [emphasis added] The implication here is clearly that Balin's attempt to reopen Moria is what "stirred up" the balrog again. Balin's ill fated expedition was about 24 years before the Fellowship made their passage through Moria. It is possible the balrog might go back to it slumber in that period, but this is also a time, we are told elsewhere, when orcs and all evil things have been proliferating and becoming more active with the rise of Sauron in Mordor. It is not necessary for there to be any direct link between the balrog and Sauron for for the balrog to be aware of the general activity of evil creatures and a proliferation of orcs in Moria, so I think it likely the balrog remained awake and prowling the lower depths of Moria after Balin's folk disturbed it again.

Finally, we come to the question of this thread which I think would be better phrased as "What alerted the balrog to the presence of the Fellowship in Moria." On this question I would say Pippin's stone down the well alerted orcs to strangers traveling through Moria and the orcs reaction to that discovery, in turn alerted the balrog. The orcs and the balrog then just waited for the Fellowship to arrive in the main part of Moria before attacking them.


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## ingolmo (May 14, 2005)

Definately the presence of another Maiar. 
The balrog wouldn't have minded Pippin's rock, because rocks probably keep on tumbling here and there. It wouldn't have minded such a small factor such as a few orcs either, and he would have noticed Sauron's presence a long time ago, so what else.
-Ingolmo


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## Ingwë (Jun 10, 2005)

> Definately the presence of another Maiar.


Maybe. Perhaps the Maiar have some powers that can show if there are other powers like their own. 
But we mustn't forget about the Wolves, the Creature in the pool that almost captured Frodo. Sauron send his servants to destroy the Company and the last was the Balrog


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## Alatar (Jun 10, 2005)

How can a presence of a maia wake him up? I think the valar could not see him whilst he ccrept along and did some gardening? Even though manwe could see all.


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## HLGStrider (Jun 10, 2005)

Is anyone else thinking what I am thinking of? Darth Balrog and Obi-Wan Gandalf!


"I sense a presence I have not felt in a long time. . .(raspy breathing)."


"Obi-Wan, we meet again. . ."
"If you strike me down I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine. . .and besides I look a lot cooler in white than grey."


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## Ingwë (Jun 12, 2005)

Elgee said:


> Is anyone else thinking what I am thinking of? Darth Balrog and Obi-Wan Gandalf!
> "I sense a presence I have not felt in a long time. . .(raspy breathing)."
> "Obi-Wan, we meet again. . ."
> "If you strike me down I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine. . .and besides I look a lot cooler in white than grey."



Hey, Elgee, that's interesting. Maybe the reason of Gandalf's and the Balrog's feeling is something like that. Gandalf is Ainu and the Balrog as well. Maybe they have some specific powers that can help them to fell if there are something like them


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## Alatar (Jun 12, 2005)

Well how come manwe didn't sence melkor?


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## Ingwë (Jun 13, 2005)

What do you mean? How Manwe didn't sense Melkor when and where?


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## Barliman Butterbur (Jun 13, 2005)

Ithrynluin said:


> What roused the Moria Balrog from sleep?



Insomnia? Dyspepsia? End of hibernation? Had to visit the loo? 

Barley


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## Alatar (Jun 13, 2005)

Ingwë said:


> What do you mean? How Manwe didn't sense Melkor when and where?


I mean when melkor destroied the two trees.
I still wan't proof that maia can sence each other.


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## Meselyn (Jun 13, 2005)

I think it was a number of factors. Though possibly Sauron influenced him by say, "There is a dwarve alive in here."


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## Alatar (Jun 13, 2005)

I also think that the conleization woke him up, as celborn said, and the balrog, having hjad a nap for a age stayed up.


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## Ingwë (Jun 13, 2005)

Alatar said:


> I mean when melkor destroied the two trees.
> I still wan't proof that maia can sence each other.


Maybe you are right. However, I voted 'Sauron's influence from afar'


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## Alatar (Jun 13, 2005)

If by 'Sauron's influence from afar' you meen the troop of mordor orcs he sent then yeah, i agree.


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## elvenbladesmith (Jun 16, 2005)

id say the balrog and the orcs have been waging a battle for generations. and since the orcs cant kill him they lay low for a long time, thats why they arent having a keg'er in the mines when the fellowship arrives(kinda like the party gone wrong at cirith ungol) basically the balrog roams around looking for stray orcs, and having the occasional skirmish. pippin invites the orcs, who are looking for some fresh meat, and are willing to chance waking up the balrog from his little nap after feasting on some orc-ca-bobs. so in turn the orcs woke up the balrog, but pippin woke up the orcs, domino effect!


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## Ingwë (Jun 16, 2005)

Alatar said:


> If by 'Sauron's influence from afar' you meen the troop of mordor orcs he sent then yeah, i agree.


No, I mean that Sauron as a powerful Maia exert influence on the Balrog. 
We talk 'Who caused the Balrog to awake' when the Company arrived in Moria, don't we?

And another idea: many people have voted for 'the presence of the One Ring'. But Sauron forget the One Ring and the Dark lord of Mordor is its Master, so don't you think that 'The influence of the One Ring' is something like 'Sauron's influence'?


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## HLGStrider (Jun 16, 2005)

elvenbladesmith said:


> id say the balrog and the orcs have been waging a battle for generations. and since the orcs cant kill him they lay low for a long time, thats why they arent having a keg'er in the mines when the fellowship arrives(kinda like the party gone wrong at cirith ungol) basically the balrog roams around looking for stray orcs, and having the occasional skirmish. pippin invites the orcs, who are looking for some fresh meat, and are willing to chance waking up the balrog from his little nap after feasting on some orc-ca-bobs. so in turn the orcs woke up the balrog, but pippin woke up the orcs, domino effect!


What makes you think the Balrog and the Orcs were on seperate sides of this? It seems they have the same basic motivation. There is nothing in the books that suggest the Orcs view the Balrog with hatered, just a healthy fear because you can't get snuggly with a Balrog.


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## Alatar (Jun 17, 2005)

Hmm i think that sauron was bending his will on every one, so the Balrog would have known that a great war is comming and woke up.
Ingwe i now agree with you.


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## Astran (Jun 26, 2005)

The balrog sensed Mithrandir and he sensed the balrog.. M. says he had never tested his powers against this power from moria... tolkien likes mystical explanations: It was both the Balrog and M.'s destiny to face each other.. And this had to be at the exit of Moria because thats far more dramatical..


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## Berserker (Jun 26, 2005)

I think it was the presence of the Ring.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Aug 24, 2014)

I didn't have time to look through this entire thread, but I chose 'Something Else.' I chose this because I assumed that the Balrog was most likely in the depths near the roots of the mountain since the end of the First Age, approximately 5000 years, until it was disturbed by the dwarves:



> The dwarves delved deep at that time, seeking beneath Barazinbar for mithril, the metal beyond price that was becomeing yearly ever harder to win. Thus they roused from sleep a thing of terror that, flying from Thangorodrim, had lain hidden at the foundations of the earth since the coming of the Host of the West: a Balrog of Morgoth. Durin (VI) was slain by it, and the year after Nain I, his son; and then the glory of Moria passed, and it's people were destryed or fled far away.



Durin VI's dwarves delved too deeply into the earth and disturbed the Balrog. Durin VI was slain, thus the name Durin's Bane was given to it.

This is just speculation on my part, but I doubt that it would have went back to hiding in the bowels of the mountain again, once it was disturbed.

[Edit] - After reading through the thread, particularly Greenwood's post (here) convinced me that the Balrog did go back to slumber again after Durin VI's demise. 

Are we ever told that Balin and his gang ever came into contact with the Balrog? I thought they were just overrun with orcs?


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## Odin (May 2, 2015)

From what the dwarves of Balin's colony manage to write down before they are all slaughtered, the orcs of Moria were the reason as there is no mention of the Balrog in the Book of Mazarbul. However, the Balrog seems to be in charge in the book and is actively commanding the orcs. The movie does not show this, as it has the orcs flee at the Balrog's approach. In film terms, I would say that it was the presence of the One Ring in the mines of Moria that caused the Balrog to awaken from it's deep slumber. As powerful as Gandalf the Grey was, the One Ring was stronger. In addition, we see that the One has a powerful effect on evil beasts when it's presence attracts the orcs at the Battle of the Gladden Fields.


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## Gothmog (May 3, 2015)

I don't think that the Balrog was sleeping during the time of the colony. It was awakened by the Dwarves and killed Durin VI after that it would have no reason to return to sleep and would have had command of the Orcs. It is just a case that the leader would only come to battle when needed. The one time that the Dwarves were in position to take Moria by battle we find that even the death of Azog is not enough to allow Durin's Folk back into Durin's Halls.



> Up the steps after him leaped a Dwarf with a red axe. It was Dáin Ironfoot, Náin's son. Right before the doors he caught Azog, and there he slew him, and hewed off his head. That was held a great feat, for Dáin was then only a stripling in the reckoning of the Dwarves. But long life and many battles before him until old but unbowed he fell at last in the War of the Ring. Yet hardy and full of wrath as he was, it is said that when he came down from the Gate he looked grey in the face, as one who has felt great fear.
> 
> ...........................
> Then Thráin turned to Dáin, and said: 'But surely my own kin will not desert me?' 'No,' said Dáin. 'you are the father of our folk, and we have bled for you, and will again. But we will not enter Khazad-dûm. You will not enter Khazad-dûm. Only I have looked through the shadow of the Gate. Beyond the shadow it waits for you still: Durin's Bane. The world must change and some other power than ours must come before Durin's Folk walk again in Moria.'
> ...



I would say that it was Gandalf and the One Ring together that caused the Balrog to come out to do battle but he was awake and in command of the Orcs all the time.


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## Alcuin (May 3, 2015)

Gothmog said:


> I don't think that the Balrog was sleeping during the time of the colony. It was awakened by the Dwarves and killed Durin VI after that it would have no reason to return to sleep and would have had command of the Orcs. It is just a case that the leader would only come to battle when needed. ... [T]he Balrog ... was awake and in command of the Orcs all the time.


That makes sense. It hid from the Host of the Valar at the end of the First Age; after the Dwarves awakened it over 5,000 years later, it remained awake. 

According to the Tale of Years, it was 500 years _after_ Durin’s Bane drove out the Dwarves of Khazad-dûm that Sauron sent “his creatures” to Moria. That presumably means orcs, and probably trolls that the Company of the Ring encountered, too. There might well have been orcs in the complex before then, under the command of the Balrog, but Sauron’s orcs most likely came under its control, too, at least as long as they were in the ruined city. It could not have been long before Sauron and the Balrog discovered one another’s existence and activities. We should not imagine them as friends, or even as allies, but they must have found one another useful. The Balrog knew nothing of Sauron’s Ring or his designs, and it is highly unlikely (IMO) that it took orders from Dol Guldur or later from Barad-dûr; but no doubt it found some cooperation – lots of orcs, for instance, that it could easily cow and dominate – quite useful. 

Once the passage of the Company of the Ring was discovered – Pippin’s stone was noticed immediately – and hunted down, a sizable force was gathered to stop and kill them. The orcs came first, then the trolls; and finally, when those failed, the Balrog itself came to see what was happening. Which means the Balrog was very much in personal command of Moria, a realm it no doubt considered its own domain. 

That brings up another point: since the Balrog was in control of Moria, who put the Watcher in the Water there? Sauron? No: the Balrog. The Watcher sounds like one of those “nameless things [e]ven Sauron knows … not,” something the Balrog met in his exploration of the underworld of Moria.


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## Gothmog (May 3, 2015)

I agree that it was the Balrog that set the watcher. It was there to block the Dwarves of the colony. Only the Balrog would be interested in doing that and only the Balrog is likely to have met and been able to control the watcher enough to send it from the deeps to the area outside the doors.


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## Alcuin (May 6, 2015)

That rather indicates the Balrog was interested in the Dwarves’ _not_ escaping Moria. That matches its hiding in the shadows during the Battle of Azanulbizar, when only Dáin Ironfoot saw it: the Balrog could easily have come out into the valley and destroyed the whole army of all Seven Dwarven Houses, but it held back and watched its own army annihilated. Why?

The implication is that the Balrog was doing what it had always done: _*hiding*_. It makes perfectly good sense: 

It hid during the War of Wrath. (Had it waited ’til the end, escape would have been nigh impossible: it escaped _before_ the fall of Thangorodrim, possibly because it’d been cut off the rest of Morgoth’s forces; besides, this is _exactly_ what Sauron did in the ruin of Utumno: he hid.) 
It hid for more than 5,000 years until the Dwarves broke into its hiding place. 
Celeborn and Galadriel suspected there was something really nasty behind Durin’s Bane, “a terror” Celeborn called it; they may even have deduced it was a balrog, a Valaraukar. But they didn’t know for certain, and Celeborn – like most everyone in this thread – through it was quiescent:


> ad I known that the Dwarves had stirred up this evil in Moria again, l would have forbidden you to pass the northern borders…


The Balrog was far from quiescent: it might have been indolent, but it wasn’t asleep.
[*]_*If*_ the Balrog had decided to cooperate with Sauron in the assault on Lórien, *then that attack would surely have succeeded.* 
[*]It made sense for the Balrog to join forces with Sauron to destroy Lórien: 

It surely knew of Galadriel, remembered her from Beleriand in the First Age, and knew of her old friendship with the Dwarves of Khazad-dûm. 
Galadriel was a threat to the Balrog: she was the greatest and most powerful of all the Eldar remaining in Middle-earth. 
The elimination of Lórien and Galadriel made its own survival and control of Moria secure.
[*]Coming upon the Elves of Lórien unawares would have meant that the Balrog had an incredible advantage over its opponents. (Apparently one or two of the Nazgûl were also involved in the initial assault on Lórien.) It would have been much like the attack on Gondolin: complete success.

Before Thorin & Co dislodged Smaug from Erebor, Gandalf was certain Sauron planned to use the dragon, too. An attack by both the dragon and the Balrog, accompanied by one or two Nazgûl, would have been sheer carnage, overwhelmingly successful, and most likely followed by an attack upon Rivendell as fast as the forces could be reorganized and moved into position. 

Had Saruman not condescended to “drive” Sauron from Dol Guldur, it is quite possible that Sauron himself would have commanded an early war against Lórien; the White Council merely put off his timetable a bit. Then Thorin & Co – and Bard the Bowman – removed Smaug from the equation. That must have made the Balrog even more skittish about being seen and recognized for what it was. 

It probably saw Balin’s colony as a potentially existential threat: they had to be eliminated completely, without any escapees or refugees returning to Erebor, warning Lórien or Rivendell of what they’d seen. As for the Company of the Ring, the Balrog probably thought at first its leader an Elf or Dúnadan – until it “laid hold of the iron ring, and … perceived [Gandalf] and [his] spell.” A _Maia_! It must _not_ be allowed to escape!


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## Odin (May 6, 2015)

Building on Alcuin's point, it's very likely that the Balrog was aware of the Lady of the Golden Wood and feared to engage her. Not only was the Lady Galadriel the mightiest of the Eldar left in Middle-Earth, she also possessed the Ring of Water, Nenya. As we know from Gandalf's encounter with Durin's Bane, the way to weaken a Balrog is to douse it's flames and then battle it. Had Durin's Bane left Khazad-Dum and attempted to assault Lothlorien, I could see the Lady Galadriel using the power of Nenya to douse the Balrog's fire and once it was weakened, the combined efforts of the greatest Galadrim warriors led by Celeborn would be enough to slay the last Balrog in Middle-Earth.


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## Erestor Arcamen (May 7, 2015)

Odin said:


> Building on Alcuin's point, it's very likely that the Balrog was aware of the Lady of the Golden Wood and feared to engage her. Not only was the Lady Galadriel the mightiest of the Eldar left in Middle-Earth, she also possessed the Ring of Water, Nenya. As we know from Gandalf's encounter with Durin's Bane, the way to weaken a Balrog is to douse it's flames and then battle it. Had Durin's Bane left Khazad-Dum and attempted to assault Lothlorien, I could see the Lady Galadriel using the power of Nenya to douse the Balrog's fire and once it was weakened, the combined efforts of the greatest Galadrim warriors led by Celeborn would be enough to slay the last Balrog in Middle-Earth.



Is it written anywhere that Nenya had power over water? I thought its powers were of preservation, protection, and concealment from evil?


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## Odin (May 7, 2015)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> Is it written anywhere that Nenya had power over water? I thought its powers were of preservation, protection, and concealment from evil?



In the Silmarillion, Professor Tolkien describes the Three Rings of Power:

"Now these were the Three that had last been made, and they possessed the greatest powers. Narya, Nenya, and Vilya, they were named, the Rings of Fire, and of *Water*, and of Air, set with ruby and adamant and sapphire; and of all the Elven-rings Sauron most desired to possess them"

Each of the Three is associated with an element here, and Nenya is described as the Ring of Water. Water is the bane of a fire creature like Durin's Bane and the power of Nenya would have been a strong match for the Balrog of Moria.


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## Elthir (May 9, 2015)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> Is it written anywhere that Nenya had power over water? I thought its powers were of preservation, protection, and concealment from evil?


 
I don't recall that a power over water is specifically mentioned. The names of the rings might have been given due to the type of stones each held, Gandalf's stone being red, Elrond's blue, and Galadriel's being a diamond, or clear.

Tolkien notes, in letter 131:  "The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay (i.e. 'change' viewed as a regrettable thing), the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance – this is more or less an Elvish motive. But also they enhanced the natural powers of a possessor – thus approaching 'magic', a motive easily corruptible into evil, a lust for domination. And finally they had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron (...): such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible.

The Elves of Eregion made Three supremely beautiful and powerful rings, almost solely of their own imagination, and directed to the preservation of beauty: they did not confer invisibility."*

That said, some see a possible connection whenever Galadriel does something magical that includes water. Or some look at certain statements or descriptions with respect to Gandalf and fire and see these as a suggestion that the other rings have more of a connection to their elements than simply the stone employed...

... in any case then you might get into the innate power of the person holding a ring, versus a _specific_ power of a given ring.

When Celebrimbor chose a ruby, did he imbue Narya with a power of fire in some sense? Did Cirdan have a special power with fire? There is a passage in _Unfinished Tales_ that seems to suggest Cirdan did not ever wield Narya, although Appendix B generally relates that the Three were active in the Third Age. In any case it is Cirdan who says to Gandalf "this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill." Tale of Years, Appendix B

If I recall correctly some passages concerning Gandalf might seem to suggest a fire connection with Narya, but I would have to look at all of them in context (which admittedly I haven't done yet, myself) to see if variant interpretations are possible.

So far my short answer is: Nenya, despite its name, is not _specifically_ said to have a special power over water; again at least that I recall.

__________
*some think this statement concerning invisibility and the Three is incorrect due to published description, where Gandalf says (Shadow of the Past): 'A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades:..."

But in my opinion Gandalf is speaking generally to Frodo here, and his message is in part to warn Frodo, since _his_ ring (the One) does in fact confer invisibility. In ther words, a digression about the Three being exceptions (if so) is hardly necessary in this context. If they were exceptions, given that Sauron had no hand in making them (noticing that in letter 131, invisibility power is said to be more directly derived from Sauron), it would hardly matter much to Frodo at the moment I think, from Gandalf's perspective, despite that it would be more detailed information for the reader.

Others might point to Sam seemingly not "seeing" Nenya on Galadriel's finger, but I think another interpretation of that scene is that Sam saw the Ring and didn't realize what it was: in short, upset and arguably very distracted by his vision, he seemingly wasn't paying enough attention; and at one point he says he thought he saw a star, so he appears to have seen something, noting that Nenya was earlier compared to a star in the same chapter.

But that's another matter!


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## Erestor Arcamen (May 11, 2015)

Odin said:


> In the Silmarillion, Professor Tolkien describes the Three Rings of Power:
> 
> "Now these were the Three that had last been made, and they possessed the greatest powers. Narya, Nenya, and Vilya, they were named, the Rings of Fire, and of *Water*, and of Air, set with ruby and adamant and sapphire; and of all the Elven-rings Sauron most desired to possess them"
> 
> Each of the Three is associated with an element here, and Nenya is described as the Ring of Water. Water is the bane of a fire creature like Durin's Bane and the power of Nenya would have been a strong match for the Balrog of Moria.



Yes but I don't think he meant literally that they could control those elements. As Galin said, they probably were so named for the stones' color they were set with. I don't recall any examples of any of the bearers ever using their rings to control the said elements.


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## Alcuin (May 12, 2015)

This section of the thread is getting off-topic, but... 

The Three Rings represent three of the classical Four Elements: Fire, Air, and Water. The One Ring represents Earth. Fire is in opposition to Earth, by the way: Gandalf with the Ring of Fire is in opposition to Sauron, master of the Ring of Earth. 

In _Silmarillion_, at the “Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath”, “the Silmarils found their long homes; one in the airs of heaven, and one in the fires of the heart of the world, and one in the deep waters.” There is a one-to-one correspondence between the elements represented in the Three Rings and the fate of the three Silmarilli. 

There seems to be something intentional in Tolkien’s use of the Four Elements for the Three Rings and the One Ring.


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## Erestor Arcamen (May 13, 2015)

Alcuin said:


> This section of the thread is getting off-topic, but...
> 
> The Three Rings represent three of the classical Four Elements: Fire, Air, and Water. The One Ring represents Earth. Fire is in opposition to Earth, by the way: Gandalf with the Ring of Fire is in opposition to Sauron, master of the Ring of Earth.
> 
> ...



I've never thought of it that way, very interesting!


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## Beorn84 (Oct 22, 2015)

Could it have been gollum tipping off the balrog i dont see how he could have came in the same way as the fellowship and he has his new "friends" that are strong .......its a shot in the dark but i enjoy hypothetical to an extent plus i enjoy reading the explanations from yall that blow my knowledge away in this


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## Gothmog (Oct 23, 2015)

Alcuin said:


> This section of the thread is getting off-topic, but...
> 
> The Three Rings represent three of the classical Four Elements: Fire, Air, and Water. The One Ring represents Earth. Fire is in opposition to Earth, by the way: Gandalf with the Ring of Fire is in opposition to Sauron, master of the Ring of Earth.
> 
> ...


And in Tolkien's works. Earth is corrupted by Melkor's diffusion of his spirit through the fabric of the world with Gold being the most corrupted metal which is why Sauron created the One ring from it.


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## Êurlond (Sep 24, 2016)

It was either The One Ring or Gandalf in my opinion.


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