# Life after death? The questions of Maia immortality.



## Wonko The Sane (Jul 15, 2002)

*Life after death? The questions of immortality.*

There's one thing that baffles me about LotR...

Gandalf "passed away" on the top of that one mountain, correct?

How was he brought back to life?

Can Maia die? Was he really dead? WHAT'S THE DEAL, PEOPLE?!?!

*scratching her head in perplexation*


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## Ancalagon (Jul 15, 2002)

Maia don't die in spirit even though the body they inhabit may be destroyed. They can either return to Aman as spirits or wander aimlessly until such as time as they are able to assume a new shape; remember Sauron after the destruction of Numenor?

Gandalf was allowed to return to Middle-Earth (or possibly made to) in order to complete the mission he was set. In actuality, he assumed a new form (the same as before) rather quicker than Sauron was able to in the past, most likely because he received a little help from his friends!


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## Gil-Galad (Jul 15, 2002)

I agree completely with you Ancalagon,by the way where did you find the smoking dragon,it's very cool,are you so happy in real life?


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## Wonko The Sane (Jul 15, 2002)

Yay! Thanks! But then...did Gandalf come back looking like his old self? If so how did he get an identical body? And if so how did his friends not recognize him?


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## Ancalagon (Jul 15, 2002)

Quite possibly he was fed through the 'ebodilizer', with his old profile that remained on the 'ebodilizers' hard-drive; bob's yer uncle - New Gandalf


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## Wonko The Sane (Sep 26, 2002)

I'm looking for an answer that's actually plausible here...
But thanks anyway!


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## Ancalagon (Sep 26, 2002)

> I'm looking for an answer that's actually plausible here...


True enough Wonko my friend, I owe you that much at least


> _Originally posted by Wonko The Sane _
> *Yay! Thanks! But then...did Gandalf come back looking like his old self? If so how did he get an identical body? And if so how did his friends not recognize him? *



When Gandalfs spirit departed from his body, his body died upon Zirak-Zigil. He obviously stood before Mandos who encouraged him to return to complete the task set. However, this departure could easily have been but a blink of the eye within time on Middle-Earth, yet many centuries uncounted within Valinor. Who can tell what brief time is outside the confines of ME?


> 'Naked I was sent back - for a brief time, until my task is done. And naked I lay upon the mountain-top.


Yet, we know he returned to inhabit his old form, reinvigorated and set afire with a new purpose, new determination with an end in sight. For good or ill he would not have known, yet, it is apparent that his spirit took up again with the shell of Gandalf and strength returned to that broken body.


> 'Twice you have borne me, Gwaihir my friend,' said Gandalf. 'Thrice shall pay for all, if you are willing. You will not find me a burden much greater than when you bore me from Zirak-zigil, where my old life burned away.'


His new life is important in understanding why he was not instantly recogniseable. Apart from being clad in White, he burned with a new, stronger, revitalised spirit; a far cry from the ailing Gandalf The Grey who stood facing the Balrog above the chasm. He was still himself, yet, his departure changed him. His discussions with Manwe, possibly even Eru himself and the fact he was among his own kindred once again, was enough to shine forth in his re-born self.


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## pohuist (Sep 26, 2002)

I also beleive that he was permitted to use (at least some of )his Maia powers upon return


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## Lantarion (Sep 27, 2002)

Yes, or perhaps you mean that he actually did use them. The Istari were allowed to use their powers, but not "for the domination of the wills of men." What is Gandalf's staff, if not a 'magical' accessory? And the fire he uses at least twice in the LotR are both Maia-powers. (NOTE: s. _Maia_; pl. _Maiar_!!!)


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## pohuist (Sep 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Lantarion _
> *Yes, or perhaps you mean that he actually did use them. The Istari were allowed to use their powers, but not "for the domination of the wills of men." What is Gandalf's staff, if not a 'magical' accessory? And the fire he uses at least twice in the LotR are both Maia-powers. (NOTE: s. Maia; pl. Maiar!!!)
> *



Are you sure?

From UT


> their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, *or* to seek to rule the wills of Men and Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt.


(Empahsis added).

The were forbidden to reveral themselves in forms of majesty (whether for ruling the wills or not). That sounds to me as somewhat circumventing their Maiar powers. I also belive that after his return Gandalf did use more of his power.


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## Wonko The Sane (Sep 27, 2002)

Speeking of Maiar powers, I thought Gandalf's ability to control fire came from his posession of the ring...and not from his inherent magical abilities...


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## Elu Thingol (Oct 1, 2002)

Wonko to refer to your question as to why Gandalf's friends did not recognize him. Three things are quite possible, first, Gandalf did not want them to recognize him and disguised himself. Second, they did not have enough time to recognize him. Third, as the apostles could not recognize Jesus neither could Aragorn, Legolas, etc. recognize Gandalf. Once you think for certain that someone is dead it is hard for you to comprehend them as living. So you do not recognize them.


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## Lantarion (Oct 1, 2002)

No, really?   
Hmm, but yes I suppose I was mistaken.. But isn't Gandalf's display of fiery paraphernalia "displaying himself in a form of majesty"? I'd say that using fire in such a way (ie. when it is not absolutely necessary) might be called a majestical and admirable feat.. Did Gandalf really have to burn down something like twenty trees just to dispose of a group of wolves?? 
And I do understand that it was in self-defence, and he was trying to save the others in addition to himself, but I still think he overused his fire on at least one occasion..

But don't take this too seriously, Gandalf roolz.


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## Wonko The Sane (Oct 3, 2002)

I thought his fiery prowess came from the ring...
SOMEONE ANSWER ME!


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## Ravenna (Oct 3, 2002)

I may be completely off here, but I never understood that the Ring of Fire actually conveyed power over fire upon it's bearer,but rather, the power to stave of weariness and to rouse people from apathy to action, as Cirdan said to Gandalf when he first appeared out of the West.


> 'take now this ring 'he said; 'for thy labours and thy cares will be heavy, but in all it will support thee and defend thee from weariness. For this is the Ring of Fire and herewith, maybe, thou shalt rekindle hearts to the valour of old in a world that grows chill'.


I don't say that Gandalf's skill with fire and flames was not aided by the ring he bore, just that that was not it's only, nor it's primary purpose.


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## Wonko The Sane (Oct 3, 2002)

I thought that it worked both ways, that Gandalf's Maiar ability to control fire helped him use the ring to inspire men, hobbits, and elves and such.
And that the rings power helped bolster his Maiar powers...
To me the Ring seems very integral in his defeating the Balrog...


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## pohuist (Oct 3, 2002)

I do not think so. The ring of fire was able to a) fire up Gandalf's spirit when he was tired and b) fire up the spirits of those who fell into apathy. I don't think it had anything to do with Balrog's defeat.


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## Wonko The Sane (Oct 3, 2002)

I dunno...just the impression I got...but I'm probably wrong.


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## pohuist (Oct 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Lantarion _
> *No, really?
> Hmm, but yes I suppose I was mistaken.. But isn't Gandalf's display of fiery paraphernalia "displaying himself in a form of majesty"? I'd say that using fire in such a way (ie. when it is not absolutely necessary) might be called a majestical and admirable feat.. Did Gandalf really have to burn down something like twenty trees just to dispose of a group of wolves??
> And I do understand that it was in self-defence, and he was trying to save the others in addition to himself, but I still think he overused his fire on at least one occasion..
> ...



Oh, come on. Haven't you ever made a small bonfire in a camp or something 
We were talking about LOTR, whereas in the Hobbit he is just a wizard with majestic fireworks, not a Maia, not even an Istari yet. The concept of him being a Maia [of limited power] wasn't probably developed yet at the time the Hobbit was written.

You are right, however, Gandalf roolz


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 5, 2002)

Hey guys,I'm not sure that Aragorn didn't know about Gandalf's origin.Cirdan knew respectively Elrond knew too.Having in mind the fact that Aragorn had lived in Rivendell he might knew the thruth for Gandalf's origin.If Elrond didn't tell him that,Arwen or Elladan,or Elrohir might have told him.


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## Lantarion (Oct 6, 2002)

Aragorn did know all about Gandalf...


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## Wonko The Sane (Oct 7, 2002)

I agree. Aragorn had been around for a long long time and he and Gandalf were really close.
Aragorn knew Gandalf by his other names as well...I believe he just called him Gandalf because that's what the hobbits called him...
Gandalf and Aragorn were hella tight!


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 11, 2002)

What about Legolas?Did he know?I doubt.


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## Finduilas (Oct 11, 2002)

Gandalf is immortal and after every 'death' of his body he has a bigger experience and a higher rank.During the fewollship of the ring he was Gandalf the gey but later he appears as Gandalf the white.Saruman is the white and he is the leader of the society of the wizards.But does this mean that every death brings him experience and glory?


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Finduilas _
> *Gandalf is immortal and after every 'death' of his body he has a bigger experience and a higher rank.During the fewollship of the ring he was Gandalf the gey but later he appears as Gandalf the white.Saruman is the white and he is the leader of the society of the wizards.But does this mean that every death brings him experience and glory? *


No.Everyone of them is a representor of a Vala in ME.Saruman may be chosen to be leader of the Maiar who come in ME,but he is not stronger than Gandalf.In fact he hates Gandalf and is afraid of him.The glory and the greatness comes with the deeds they do.At the beginnig Saruman is really powerful,but with the time he loses his power beacause of his evil heart.That's why soon he is becomes in power of Sauron,watching the palantir.


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## Wonko The Sane (Oct 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Gil-Galad _
> *What about Legolas?Did he know?I doubt. *



This is a good question. It seems to me that the elves are a difficult race to classify in terms of how much they knew.

Obviously Elrond must have known, I mean...Gandalf is a Maia and the Maiar are so closely interwoven with the Elves and their history with Eressea and their fall that it hardly seems possible that the Elves wouldn't know...
But then again Legolas never gives any hints that he knows...but then again...neither does Aragorn really.

To me Legolas seemed to know a lot more than he let on...I'd say that he probably did know...

And if you think about it since it was known that Gandalf was a Maia...by at least Aragorn...but certainly Galadriel and the the elves of Lothlorien why were they so mournful at his death...didn't they know that he would rise again?
Same with Legolas.
But it was soo cute when Legolas was being all sad because Gandalf was "dead"...
Legolas is so cute.


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 16, 2002)

I have thought whether Legolas knows about Gandalf's origin.
I think Galadriel knew about Gandalf,in fact she is the last elf in Me who has been in Valinor and she should have known about Olorin during her life in Valinor.I suppose she was mournful because she has realised that the fellowship is breaking down and Gandalf won't help the anymore.Another idea which I have is that Galadriel hasn't understood details about Gandalf's death and she has thought his body is dead and his spirit is no more in ME.
About Legolas.Elrond knows,Galadriel know too,in fact all high elves know.But Legolas is not a high elf.He lives in his father's lands (Mirkwood)and I doubt he knows about Gandalf.He hasn't got the chance to meet Cirdan(has he?!) and speak with him about Olorin(we shouldn't forget Cirdan is the first who finds out the real origin of Gandalf),nor Elrond has told him such information.
In conclusion I think that Legolas doesn't know the thruth about Gandalf while Galadriel knows it.


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## Wonko The Sane (Oct 16, 2002)

Maybe you're right.
I forgot that Legolas wasn't a high-elf...hard to forget I know...
But it's easy to slip the mind when all you focus on is his intense beauty. 

I was reading the parts of the Sil where it first talks about Olorin and I relaised that you're probably right. I don't think Legolas would have had a chance to know about Gandalf's true identity.
It even said that most elves didn't realise he was Olorin because he didn't want them to...but that he went to the earth in order to inspire.


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 16, 2002)

You're right Olorin didn't want to know him.I think it was so because his mission was to help people and ME to defeat Sauron by their own power,not by his power as a Maia.If most elves knew he was a Maia they would have asked him to destroy Sauron,but that wasn't the aim of his mission.


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## Wonko The Sane (Oct 16, 2002)

Exactly.
They'd raise him up to a level he didn't want to be at. They'd ask him to fight their wars for him and his job was to inspire them to go and win their own wars.


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 16, 2002)

And nothing of the Valar purposes,to teach people how to survive,would be done.


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## Wonko The Sane (Oct 16, 2002)

Exactly! They created this world for the Elves to live in...not to have their lives lived for them in...*that sounds convoluted.*


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 16, 2002)

I would say that the world is created for the second born.If it was for the elves they wouldn't go in Valinor.I believe that almost perfect creatures like elves should live in Valinor-the place which is almost perfect.


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## Wonko The Sane (Nov 14, 2002)

Right...well I guess you could replace elves with men in that last sentence and still get what I meant...


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## Gil-Galad (Nov 15, 2002)

Men were everything else,but not "almost perfect".That's why Middle Earth was for them.


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## Wonko The Sane (Nov 15, 2002)

I agree, sorry if I made that unclear before.


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## Gil-Galad (Nov 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Wonko The Sane _
> *I agree, sorry if I made that unclear before. *


Probably I didn't understand you.I'm gald we have same opinions


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## Wonko The Sane (Nov 15, 2002)

Yay! Go Gil-Galad!!


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## Gil-Galad (Nov 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Wonko The Sane _
> *Yay! Go Gil-Galad!! *


Yeah...I'm going to sleep.......


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## Wonko The Sane (Nov 15, 2002)

*scratches her head*

Um...good night then?


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