# What did Sauron think?



## Mike (Mar 16, 2005)

At one point in "The Fellowship of the Ring", during the Council of Elrond, Gandalf (Or Elrond) describes how Sauron's only measure of things was power.

If this is so, then it beggars the question: Does Sauron think he's evil?

Or, more coherently: In Tolkien's Middle-Earth, does evil exist as a seperate force or is it merely the absence of good?

Sauron does not do things to be "evil." As far as my knowledge stretches, I believe Sauron wanted to create his own world on Middle-Earth, populated with his own creatures, and above all stealing absolute power from Eru. Carrying on Morgoth's legacy, so to speak. 

When Sauron does things, he's seeking power, right? Or is he doing in malice towards those who cast him out? It makes a world of difference: is evil an outward or absent force?


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## Celebthôl (Mar 16, 2005)

Nah, he was evil, he took pleasure in watching men suffer, he was a liar and I know he did something very evil and bad in the Silmarillion, but I can't remember what! Haha!


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## Annaheru (Mar 16, 2005)

He had the epithat "the cruel", anyway he hated the Elves, and Numenor; delighting in its destruction. Morgoth's first problem was pride: he was better than anyone else, including Eru. Sauron was drawn to him when he was still magnificent, and remained with him after he became black. When Sauron himself had a chance at restoration his pride kept him from excepting it. By the time of LoTR I don't think he cared about anything but himself. The question of good or evil wouldn't have ocurred to him. If it had I think he would have called himself evil, and considered it a compliment.


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## Hammersmith (Mar 16, 2005)

Did he know fear? He was afraid when Beren and Luthien defeated him, I believe, and maybe the Numenoreans when he allowed himself to be captured (though that might have been cold cunning rather than fear) which suggests that he knew malice, as a cause of fear. Indeed as is pointed out, he was known as "The Cruel". If he knew cruellty, then he surely must have known mercy, and equated it as the weakness that he could exploit. Could hatred of mercy and what it stands for be called evil? If so, he was evil and he knew it.


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## Alcuin (Mar 16, 2005)

Tolkien says that while Morgoth was a nihilist – he wanted to destroy everything – Sauron was content that the world existed as long as he was in charge. In _Morgoth’s Ring_, pp. 396-397, Tolkien writes in a discussion of the motives of Morgoth and Sauron,




> Sauron … did not object to the existence of the world, so long as he could do what he liked with it. … e loved order and co-ordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction. … [T]he only real good in, or rationalization for, all this ordering and planning and organization was the good of all inhabitant of Arda (even admitting Sauron’s right to be their supreme lord), his ‘plans’, the idea coming his own isolated mind, became the sole object of his will, and an end, the End, in itself.





> …Sauron had not served Morgoth, even in his last stages, without becoming infected by his lust for destruction, and his hatred of God (which must end in nihilism). Sauron could not, of course, be a ‘sincere’ atheist. Though one of the minor spirits created before the world, he knew Eru, according to his measure.


Sauron deliberately placed himself in opposition to Eru. He knew what he was doing. In the Second Age, he set himself up as a god-king in Middle Earth. Then he worked hard to get Ar-Pharazôn and the Númenóreans to stop worshipping Eru and worship Morgoth instead. Toward the end of the Third Age, he again set himself up as god-king.

He does seem to have believed he could get away with this, and IMHO, he didn’t care about or bother to think about the morality or ultimate consequences of his actions.


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## Ingwë (Mar 17, 2005)

Sauron want to create his own world or to be a master of Middle earth. He want to control all free creature of the Middle earth. His great enemies are the Elves and the Numenoreans. Before the creating of Arda Sauron wasn`t eliv. When he became servant of Morgoth the Great he became as evil as Melkor is but he was only servant of the Great Enemy. 
Maybe he knows he is Bad Boy and his opponents are Good Boys. He wanted to control the world with the Rings of Power but he didn`t do it. That good!  
He knows he is evil.​


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## Turin65 (Mar 17, 2005)

This debate is very old. Philosophers way before Tolkien were debating the nature of evil. Both sides can still be argued very well I think. (Does Bush know that he is evil? No he doesn't.)

My opinion is that Sauron (or anyone) does not see himself as evil. Desire and frustration followed by a malice toward those who won't fulfill that desire is the evolution of evil. Both Morgoth and Sauron were Ainu and Miar. They may have had a kind of ambiguous nature, but they were not evil in the beginning, not entirely, just like Satan. Sauron, like Morgoth, was a lustful spirit. They lusted for power, the Silmarils, Manwe's position, Illuvitar's creating force. They did not have these and their lust drove them to "convince themselves" that they deserved them. Smeagol killed his brother because Smeagol felt he deserved the One ring. The end justified the means with Smeagol, as with Morgoth, Saruman, Maedhros, Feanor, and Sauron. Enjoying that means, such as enjoying torture, comes later, in my opinion.


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## Turin (Mar 17, 2005)

Turin65, my original username was Turin56(back in the day) and it was really scary seeing someone with almost the same original name. Good day to you, and welcome to the forum .

Btw, sorry for the off topic post.


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## Greenwood (Mar 17, 2005)

Turin65 said:


> My opinion is that Sauron (or anyone) does not see himself as evil.


I agree with you. Does a sociopath think of himself as evil? I doubt it. He just thinks of what he wants and that nothing should stand in the way of his satisfaction.

BTW, welcome to the Forum.


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## Morgul Agent (Mar 21, 2005)

Sauron was evil, and he knew it.. and he was proud of it.

Maybe not at first, but definitely by the end. As someone said, he repeatedly set himself up as a god king, defying the lords of arda, and he delighted in the perversion and torture of the innocent. He wanted to dominate the entire world, and that's basically evil.


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## Durin's Bane (Mar 21, 2005)

I think he knew that others concidered him to be evil, but that doesn't mean he concidered himself evil. The fact that he set himself up as a god-king means he thinks himself as all-mighty. And he didn't chose the name 'The Cruel', he was given it.


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## Narvi (Mar 29, 2005)

Did Sauron consider himself to be Evil? Good question, but the answer I think depends on which definition of Evil you want to use. Consider these three definitions:

*'Evil' as percieved by the inhabitants of Arda*
Gandalf once said "Nothing was evil in the beginning - even Sauron was not so". This implies that all things created by Eru start out basically good (or at worst neutral) in nature, and only become evil as a result of later corruption, ultimately stemming from Melkor's envy-driven contribution to the Ainulindale, and events like the Marring of Arda and the Darkening of Valinor which resulted from it. Consequently, 'Evil' within ME basically means 'Follower of Morgoth'. Sauron was an original and loyal follower of Morgoth, so in these terms he is obviously evil, and must know it. I think he doesn't much care either - after all, in LoTR he permits The Mouth to refer to him as "Sauron", a name given to him by his Noldorin enemies which means "The Abomination" in Quenya. In other words, Sauron is knowingly evil by his own choice - he could have turned from his path at a number of junctures (most obviously at the end of the First Age when he was captured by Eonwe) but chose not to. 

Incidentally, this puts Sauron in the same boat as other inhabitants of Arda who deliberately chose the path of serving the ends of Morgoth, and makes him different from those who acted unwisely but did not serve Morgoth or his minions by choice: for instance compare Lotho Sackville-Baggins (foolish and vain) to his mentor 'Sharkey' (Saruman, who knowingly betrayed his order and the White Council out of desire for the Ring); or Eol (misguidedly proud and selfish) to his son Maeglin (who knowingly chose to betray Gondolin to Morgoth out of lust for Idril).

*'Evil' as defined by RL religious tradition*
This is relevant because it was very much JRRT's world view, as a devout Catholic: IMHO he clearly modelled Melkor / Morgoth in relation to Eru on the Christian myth of Lucifer / Satan in relation to God. To a Christian, I suppose 'Evil' to mean acting in opposition to the will of God and contary to His commandments. this is subtly different from the ME definition above because Evil is not clearly incarnate in our world and therefore an evil individual does not necessarily have to have a political allegiance to a certain entity, but rather an internal opposition to the tenets of scripture which is made manifest in his/her actions. 

In these terms, Sauron would consider himself to be evil if he thinks that he is acting in opposition to the will of Eru. Whether this is the case or not is a very interesting question. On one hand, Sauron took part in the Ainulindale and must have been aware that he was singing against the themes of Eru; similarly, he knew he was fighting against the Valar in the Battle of the Powers. OTOH, maybe he genuinely believed his contribution on such occasions to be an attempt to improve on Eru's creation, more 'constructive' and 'progressive' than the Valar, who mostly just sat around in eternal bliss behind the Pelori and took little active part in the affairs of ME.

Interestingly, if one takes this point of view ('Evil' = 'opposed to God'), then Feanor would probably qualify as the most evil of all the Children of Iluvatar. He refused to allow the Silmarils to be used to save the Two Trees in the face of a direct request from Manwe, and instead swore a blasphemous oath on the name of Eru to recover them for himself; an action which not only resulted in his own doom and his sons', but also resulted in death and suffering for countless others, from the Kinslaying of Alqualonde to Fall of Gondolin.

*'Evil' as percieved by secular inhabitants of twenty-first century Earth*
Here in the 'real' world, most people tend to define an evil act as being an illegal and/or immoral one which damages the welfare of others in some way, and an evil person is defined as one who repeatedly and recklessly commits such acts. However, such a definition of evil is entirely subjective, and virtually no-one defines themselves as evil in such terms. Saddam Hussein and Josef Stalin are two examples of individuals who virtually everybody else condemns as evil but who do/did not define themselves as such.

If Evil is defined subjectively in terms of actions, rather than objectively in terms of ME politics or moral intent, then I doubt very much that Sauron considered himself evil. He may have thought of his tyranny as the best available option for his subjects, like Stalin; he may have considered all his actions, when taken individually, to be totally justified by circumstances, like Saddam.

If you look upon evil as simply being a subjective judgement of actions, then it is as depressingly common in ME as it is in reality: one could say that the imperialism of nineteenth century Britain is as evil as that of Second Age Numenor, the repression of black Americans as wicked as the Rohirrim hunting the Woses for sport, and so on.


Enough waffle. I take the first of these three possible positions, and so in my opinion Sauron was Evil. One can only judge characters in a fictional frame by the standards of that frame, and Sauron made his choice to follow the Melkor based on full knowledge that he was following The Enemy - The Enemy of God, the Enemy of the Valar, and the enemy of all the Children of Iluvatar.


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## Mike (Apr 4, 2005)

> *'Evil' as percieved by the inhabitants of Arda
> *Gandalf once said "Nothing was evil in the beginning - even Sauron was not so". This implies that all things created by Eru start out basically good (or at worst neutral) in nature, and only become evil as a result of later corruption, ultimately stemming from Melkor's envy-driven contribution to the Ainulindale, and events like the Marring of Arda and the Darkening of Valinor which resulted from it. Consequently, 'Evil' within ME basically means 'Follower of Morgoth'. Sauron was an original and loyal follower of Morgoth, so in these terms he is obviously evil, and must know it. I think he doesn't much care either - after all, in LoTR he permits The Mouth to refer to him as "Sauron", a name given to him by his Noldorin enemies which means "The Abomination" in Quenya. In other words, Sauron is knowingly evil by his own choice - he could have turned from his path at a number of junctures (most obviously at the end of the First Age when he was captured by Eonwe) but chose not to.


 
That's all I was asking for. Thanks!



> Enough waffle. I take the first of these three possible positions, and so in my opinion Sauron was Evil. One can only judge characters in a fictional frame by the standards of that frame, and Sauron made his choice to follow the Melkor based on full knowledge that he was following The Enemy - The Enemy of God, the Enemy of the Valar, and the enemy of all the Children of Iluvatar.


 
And my question is settled.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Oct 5, 2022)

This is an interesting one! How about some fresh perspective? Did Sauron see himself as evil or was he making Middle Earth a better place? 

Also... 😬


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 5, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> This is an interesting one! How about some fresh perspective? Did Sauron see himself as evil or was he making Middle Earth a better place?
> 
> Also... 😬
> View attachment 16255


I don't think he really thought about it. He wanted things his way and if he needed to hurt people to get that he was okay with that. I would say he knew that was classified as evil.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Oct 7, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> I don't think he really thought about it. He wanted things his way and if he needed to hurt people to get that he was okay with that. I would say he knew that was classified as evil.


If we take this from a philosophical perspective in the real world and apply it to Tolkien's (assuming such was possible), one could say that all beings in Ea have the innate capacity for good due to rational prudence, as described through Aquinas' Theory of Natural Law. Thus, Sauron would have been innately good - therefore, is evil not simply a corruption of what is good (Plato's Realm of Forms vs. Realm of Appearances), and comes forth from the lack of utilizing practical reason?


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 7, 2022)

Nienna Qalme-Tári said:


> If we take this from a philosophical perspective in the real world and apply it to Tolkien's (assuming such was possible), one could say that all beings in Ea have the innate capacity for good due to rational prudence, as described through Aquinas' Theory of Natural Law. Thus, Sauron would have been innately good - therefore, is evil not simply a corruption of what is good (Plato's Realm of Forms vs. Realm of Appearances), and comes forth from the lack of utilizing practical reason?


I'm unfamiliar with the intricacies of either so I'd need to look into both before commenting on this.


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