# Is there 'real magic' in Lord of the Rings?



## Snaga (Apr 21, 2003)

*Magic: Is there 'real magic' in Lord of the Rings?*

Here is a debate that goes on continually in the Role-playing side of the forum. I think it is one that would merit the attention of the great forum scholars!

The question is: what is magic in Middle Earth?

Is it just the inherent abilities of non-human races? in other words the elves and the maia can do things that humans (and hobbits) don't understand and therefore call 'magic'?

I was willing to accept that for a time but then I get stuck on the Witch King. If I was feeling scholarly I would go and hunt the quote that shows that he was known as a 'sorceror' before he became a wraith.

So... what is the nature of magic? Is there magic? Is it just science - eg Sarumans armies use 'blasting fire' on the walls of Helms Deep: that could be gun powder. 

If its science it can be learnt, if its magic... can it?


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## Anor (Apr 21, 2003)

Greetings Snaga1,

I'm not a Tolkien scholar - or even a long years fan - so I'll simply quote some of the Professor's words and hope it will shed some light on the matter.

In Tolkien's letter to Milton Waldman, 1951, he says the following:

"Anyway, all this stuff* is mainly concerned with Fall, Mortality and the Machine. With Fall inevitably, and that motive occurs in several modes. With Mortality, especially as it affects art and the creative (or as I should say, sub-creative) desire which seems to have no biological function, and to be apart from the satisfactions of plain ordinary biological life, with which, in our world, it is indeed usually at strife. The desire is at once wedded to a passionate love of the real primary world, and hence filled with the sense of mortality, and yet unsatisfied by it. It has various opportunities of 'Fall'. It may become possessive, clinging to the things made as its own, the subcreator wishes to be the Lord and God of his private creation. He will rebel against the laws of the Creator - especially against mortality. Both of these (alone or together) will lead to the desire for Power, for making the will more wuickly effective, - and so to the Machine (or Magic). By the last I intend all use of external plans or devices (apparatus) instead of developments of the inherent inner powers or talents or even the use of these talents with the corrupted motive of dominating: bulldozing the real world, or coercing other wills. The Machine is our more obvious modern form though more closely related to Magic than is usually recognised.
I have not used 'magic' consistently, and indeed the Elven-queen Galadriel is obliged to remonstrate with the Hobbits on their confused use of the word both for the devices and operations of the Enemy, and for those of the Elves. I have not, because there is not a word for the latter (since all human stories have suffered the same confusion). But the Elves are there (in my tales) to demonstrate the difference. Their 'magic' is Art, delivered from many of its human limitations: more effortless, more quick, more complete (product, and vision in unflawed correspondence). And its object is Art not Power, sub-creation not domination and tyrannous reforming of Creation."

"* It is, I suppose, fundamentally concerned with the problem of the relation of Art (and Sub-creation) and Primary Reality."

I hope this helps.

Waes Hael, 

Anor


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## Anamatar IV (Apr 21, 2003)

Well, remember on Caradhras Gandalf blasted a fire of green out of no where.

Well also remember that Elves didn't call anything magic......

In History of Middle-earth the term magic is used A LOT but not associated with what Gandalf did in FotR. Like in Lays of Beleriand magic was the shadows of the forest that Beleg was lost in and magic was what kept the Noldorin lamp alight.


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## Lantarion (Apr 21, 2003)

This is a recurring question of mine, which I have sort of reconciled with myself but which is difficult to word.
This thread attempts to shed some light on the matter; it is quite interesting. One theory that was offered was that the so-called 'magic' was in fact presennt in all things, and could be somehow tapped into by certain words..


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## Snaga (Apr 22, 2003)

An interesting if unsatisfactory exchange, Lantarion! And that quote was known to me, but is certainly not a direct answer to the question, Anor.

Eriol's posts ring closest to the truth for me: I was thinking of Tom Bombadil's singing as well, but most especially of the song of the Ainur that created the world. And maybe the melodious sound of Sarumans voice?

If Tolkiens world is made out the songs of the Ainur, then perhaps some knowledge of that song is needed to invoke 'magic'?

Tolkien appears to suggest that the elvish use of 'magic' has a different character than 'deceptions of the enemy' but by contrast Gandalf is faced by a 'counterspell' used by the balrog... suggesting perhaps more similarity?

I need more time to think about this one...


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## BlackCaptain (Apr 22, 2003)

I've always thought of magic in Tolkiens works as just the ability to harness the powers of nature... That quote from the letters of Tolkien was good.


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## sepdet (Apr 22, 2003)

*magic..*

.. at a simple level, it's those things which can't be explained by natural processes or mechanical/artificial ones.


The lamps and jewels that shine with their own inner light are one example.

Aragorn's telepathic communion with Faramir, Éowyn, and Merry is another. Faramir, at least, has enough Númenor blood in him to respond in kind: he knows who Aragorn is when he awakens.

Gandalf's fires, of course, come out of nowhere.

And Galadriel may be perplexed about what the hobbits mean by magic, but her Mirror falls under that definition as well, and it explains why they also use it for inexplicable powers of the enemy.



Now what is the _source_ of that magic, what makes it tick, is a more complicated and mysterious question, and the one that you all are starting to address. But as for "Is there 'real magic' in the Lord of the Rings, the first question you have to ask is, 'what is real magic?' before you can say, 'yes, there is.'"


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## SpencerC18 (Apr 23, 2003)

Gandalf spoke words of power and in combination with the runes it made the door open.


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## Ice Man (Apr 23, 2003)

Of course there is, but it's not made of flashes and thunders. It's simply the manipulating of some distinguised elements of nature and some elements of one person's will. I know this sounds terribly vague, but there isn't really an explanation for magic, because it doesn't really exist at all.


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