# Was Éowyn right in joining the ride of the Rohirrim, and disobeying King Théoden?



## Arvedui (Oct 14, 2003)

*Was Éowyn right in joining the ride of the Rohirrim, and disobeying King Théodens ord*

Another topic from the Debate-Tournament:

*Was Éowyn right in joining the ride of the Rohirrim, and disobeying King Théodens orders to stay in Rohan?* 

Enjoy


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## Flammifer (Oct 14, 2003)

Well, in hindsight, of course she was right. If she hadn't killed the Witch-king, he could have done some serious damage on the Pelennor. Maybe the Free Peoples wouldn't have even won the battle!?!

But of course, Éowyn did not have this kind of foresight. Therefore, I would say that she was wrong in joining the ride to Gondor. 

Besides the fact that she was directly disobeying the orders of her King, she only wanted to ride to Gondor so that she might win renown, and because she was restless and, perhaps even a little immature. I think that this decision was based on a degree of selfishness.

Nonetheless she is a kindly character. Curious.


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## Courtney (Oct 14, 2003)

I agree with Flammifer to some extent, and I think that he brought up many good points. I do not think, however, that a person, (a young woman for that matter, with her entire life ahead of her) who gave up practically everything to serve her king should be called selfish. I do agree that the action (which of course is what Flam said) was a bit selfish. But after spending years trying to prove herself to her family, and getting no respect for the things she valued most in herself:courage, valour... I mean , in the end, all I can say is that if I had been in the situation, I'd have done the same thing. I would not stand by and wait for my family to die. Her disobedience to the king showed her love for him more than all her years acting as his servant.

 Eowyn's my favorite!


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## Arvedui (Oct 14, 2003)

Her love for King Théoden had nothing to do with it.
IMO, Éowyn was driven by two things:
First of all, her lust for proving herself as a fighter.
Secondly, a death-wish after Aragorn went through the Paths of the Dead.

That doesn't sound very 'right' to me


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## Flammifer (Oct 14, 2003)

Hehe. Good point, both of you!



> Her love for King Théoden had nothing to do with it.
> IMO, Éowyn was driven by two things:
> First of all, her lust for proving herself as a fighter.
> Secondly, a death-wish after Aragorn went through the Paths of the Dead.



I suppose she did want to prove herself, didn't she? Good point. She did that!

I'm not sure about her death-wish though! She didn't really love him remember. She only wanted to be high and puissant and above the mean things that crawl on the earth.

Rather, I agree with what Courtney said also. 

I suppose that her whole adult life she had been a 'woman in a man's world'. Sorry guys, not trying to be sexist, but that's how it was. I guess she felt a bit angry that she could do all these 'manly' things such as rule in her king's stead, but when it came down to it, she was forbidden to do something 'manly' such as prove her valour in battle, and FIGHT!


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## Courtney (Oct 14, 2003)

OK... let's say for a minute that I agree with you and that her action had nothing to do with her love for her king...

Was it "wrong" to wish for death? Pretty much she thought she was going to die anyway, whether back in hiding, or in the midst of the war itself. It was her last chance to prove herself. She thought it was hopeless and the war could not possibly be won. I think that if she thought the war could have been won she would not have minded staying behind so much... but that is speculation on my part.

I think that what she did was the "right" thing to do. She knew she was going to die, so she made the most of what time she had left.

I agree with Arv's points about why she did it; I just disagree with the fact that they were the wrong reasons.


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## Flammifer (Oct 14, 2003)

Hmm...I see your point Courtney, but if Eowyn really knew what was going on, and that she would die anyway, why would she go looking for a fight, when one would come to her inevitably? She didn't need to disobey her orders just to find a battle that would come to her regardless.........

Perhaps it was love for her King. I didn't disagree with this. She probably would have followed him 'to whatever end', or something like that.


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## Arvedui (Oct 14, 2003)

But it was not for her to decide even if she thought that the war was lost!
The King had trust in that she should take care of his people while he was away!
Remember this conversation?


> ‘”Behold! I go forth, and it seems like to be my last riding,’ said Theoden. ‘I have no child. Theodred my son is slain. I name Eomer my sister-son to be my heir. If neither of us return, then choose a new lord as you will. But to some one I must now entrust my people that I leave behind, to rule them in my place. Which of you will stay?’
> No man spoke.
> Is there none whom you would name? In whom do my people trust?’
> ‘In the House of Eorl,’ answered Hama.
> ...


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## Flammifer (Oct 14, 2003)

Oh yeah! She should have stayed to rule the people to whom she had been appointed.

Yay! Now I can bring up my 'selfishness' point again! It was selfish to leave all her people behind, who she was supposed to rule.


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## Aulë (Oct 14, 2003)

Rhi is going to beserk when she sees this 
She'll probably say that Eowyn was in no state to protect her people, and that Eowyn is admirable to disobey the King.  

But I agree with Flammifer (as I did in the debate- which we won  *hides from Tolkienologists*), Eowyn WAS selfish. There were thousands of Rohirrm held up in Dunharrow, and if it were not for the Ents, they would have been killed. So she put herself ahead of thousands of others- you can't get much more selfish than that.


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## Flammifer (Oct 14, 2003)

Yay thanks Aulë!

Haha I can't wait to see Rhi reaction to this.........glad I'm on the other side of the world.......*gets paranoid*


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Arvedui _
> *
> IMO, Éowyn was driven by two things:
> First of all, her lust for proving herself as a fighter.
> ...


Arvedui,you were so precise in your words.You said two things and both of them are correct in my opinion.


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## Courtney (Oct 14, 2003)

Going way back up to when Flam asked: if Eowyn really knew what was going on, and that she would die anyway, why would she go looking for a fight, when one would come to her inevitably?

If she had to decide between dying hidden in a cave like a coward or dying valiently in battle, I can understand why she would disobey the king.

But, although I hate to admit... you guys win.... I have changed my opinion. Eowyn was wrong to disobey the king... but I understand why she did.


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## Aulë (Oct 14, 2003)

She could have died valiantly fighting the Orcs of the Misty Mountains if they had attacked Rohan (which they would have done without the luck of the Ents being there). Theoden had left 4000 or so of his army behind to protect the women and children- and Eowyn could have easily led them out into battle had the situation arisen. She could have had her glorious death, or she could have saved the day.

But no- she had to disobey her King's wishes, and go searching for a valiant death whilst leaving her people behind.


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## Kelonus (Oct 14, 2003)

Well, I believe it is wrong to disobey an order given, but she went out there for a reason. I'm sure to prove that she can fight was her reason. It was a good idea for her to anyway, but she could of gotten killed.


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## Aulë (Oct 14, 2003)

No. If she wanted to prove that she could fight, she wouldn't have used a disguise  She went to Gondor to seek her death. If it weren't for Faramir, she probably would have taken her own life after she was healed anyway.


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## Kelonus (Oct 14, 2003)

She used a disguise to fight. Without it she couldn't prove herself.


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## Rhiannon (Oct 14, 2003)

> Rhi is going to beserk when she sees this



I am _so_ predictable 



> She'll probably say that Eowyn was in no state to protect her people, and that Eowyn is admirable to disobey the King.


Actually I didn't say that, that was one of my militant Eowyn fan minions. 

There are two aspects to the question- one is 'was Eowyn right as a _subject_ to disobey her king?' Of course the answer is no. Even I concede that. Stripped down to the very basic facts of King Said Stay Here and Woman Does Not Stay There, yes she was wrong. But there is _more_ to it than that. This isn't a black and white situation, nothing ever is. Human beings are made up of shades of grey. 
'Was Eowyn right on a _personal_ level to disobey her king?' Loud, resounding, _yes_. One of the reasons Eowyn is my favorite character is her complexity- she doesn't get much page time, but just in the short space she has she is revealed as a deep character with many layers. 
Her parents died when she was young, her cousin (who would have been a brother figure to her) has recently been slain, her uncle is rapidly deteriorating and falling under the influence of Wormtongue (and therefore Saruman), her brother, her only other family, spends most of his time chasing orcs and getting himself arrested: And here is Eowyn, this brave, spirited woman, and she can't do anything about it. All she can do is serve as a 'dry nurse' to her uncle, because she is trapped by her role as a woman, a maiden, with no outlet for her fear or anger. 
Eowyn wants freedom, she wants out; as Gandalf says to Eomer, "...You had horses, and deeds of arms, and the free fields; but she, born in the body of a maid, had a spirit and courage at least the match of yours. Yet she was doomed to wait upon an old man, whom she loved as a father, and watch him falling into a mean dishonoured dotage; and her part seemed to her more ignoble than that of the staff he leaned on. Think you that Wormtongue had poison only for Theoden's ears?....My lord, if your sister's love for you, and her will still bent to her duty, had not restrained her lips, you might have heard even such things as these escape them. But who knows what she spoke to the darkness, alone, in the bitter watches of the night, when all her life seemed shrinking, and the walls of her bower closing in about her, a hutch to trammel some wild thing in?" (The Return of the King, 'The Houses of Healing') The fact that Eowyn has been made to feel worthless, she seeks greatness, and because she has been made to feel trapped, she seeks freedom. 

All of this is going on behind the scenes when Eowyn first begs to be allowed to go with Aragorn, and again when she is left behind by Theoden. Had Eowyn _not_ joined the Riders, her depression and misery might very well have consumed her. Disguising herself was her way of breaking out of the role she was trapped in; she was being _proactive_, she was fighting her own darkness, even though she probably didn't even realize she was doing it. Yes, her reasons for going were selfish (although I _don't_ that she was putting the people of Rohan in any real danger by her absence), she was still doing the _right_ thing, just for the wrong reason. 



> She could have died valiantly fighting the Orcs of the Misty Mountains if they had attacked Rohan (which they would have done without the luck of the Ents being there). Theoden had left 4000 or so of his army behind to protect the women and children- and Eowyn could have easily led them out into battle had the situation arisen. She could have had her glorious death, or she could have saved the day.



But she had _no way of knowing that those orcs were going to show up_. She would still have been left stewing in her own depression (_not_ a healthy way to be, which is why on a personal level she _was_ right to go, in my opinion). And the Ents _were_ there. That's a very what-if argument, Aule.


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## HLGStrider (Oct 14, 2003)

I think I'll prick Rhi by playing devil's advocate.




To start with. . .



> Actually I didn't say that, that was one of my militant Eowyn fan minions.



This is proof I have been framed! All that talk Rhi started about me being the evil spider kitty. . .and now she turns out to be the one with MINIONS! I don't have minions! I'm not even a minion. . .if you're evil you either have minions or are a minion. I don't have and am not, so Rhi is evil, I am not, Rhi framed me. . .



> Yes, her reasons for going were selfish (although I don't that she was putting the people of Rohan in any real danger by her absence), she was still doing the right thing, just for the wrong reason.



Was she? I disagree. I think staying would've been the right thing. If she'd looked into a Crystal ball and seen that she could save the king or Gondor or even a little kitty cat from getting smushed, yes, right thing. She didn't. She would've just been one among many. 

You also have to consider that the job she was given was NOT particularly lowly. She was basically ruler of a kingdom. When all else failed she would be leading the last resistance, scrambling to save the people of Rohan, mostly women and children, so this would've been a huge job, and more heroic in my mind then fighting.

Also, she did have a duty to the king, who was practically her father and fully in possession of his senses.

Eowyn was in a bad, depressing situation, undeniably. She didn't want to be there. She wanted to do something else, and she did it. I don't think it was particularly admirable. Just desperate.



> But she had no way of knowing that those orcs were going to show up.



I think Aragorn was right and that war would come to them all. . .as he told her before he left. 

It turned out all right, but evil is oft turned to good and bad intentions get good results. It's all from grace, I suppose. . .a heroine doesn't have to be heroic at all times.


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## Rhiannon (Oct 14, 2003)

> I think I'll prick Rhi by playing devil's advocate.



Gee, am I really that entertaining?



> This is proof I have been framed! All that talk Rhi started about me being the evil spider kitty. . .and now she turns out to be the one with MINIONS! I don't have minions! I'm not even a minion. . .if you're evil you either have minions or are a minion. I don't have and am not, so Rhi is evil, I am not, Rhi framed me. . .



FLY MY MINIONS! FLY! Yes, Rhi is evil. She has never denied it. And anyway, you turned out to be a prettyful princess in the end.



> Eowyn was in a bad, depressing situation, undeniably. She didn't want to be there. She wanted to do something else, and she did it. I don't think it was particularly admirable. Just desperate.



Desperate, yes, but that doesn't make her not admirable. Maybe staying behind _would_ have been the better thing, but we have no way of knowing. Eowyn was in a high situation ruling, yes, but she was still restricted by the fact that she was a _woman_. She's obviously been trained to fight, but not allowed to use her training. Yes, she left for primarily selfish reasons. Right thing, wrong reasons. Conceded. As she says to Aragorn: "'Too often have I heard of duty', she cried. 'But am I not of the House of Eorl, a shieldmaiden and not a dry-nurse? I have waited on faltering feet long enough. Since they falter no longer, it seems, may I not now spend my life as I will?'" She wants _out_. She needs out. And later: "She answered: 'All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more.'" (I just realized that Eowyn is who the narrator of _Till We Have Faces_ reminds me of </randomness>
And you said earlier:


> She was basically ruler of a kingdom. When all else failed she would be leading the last resistance, scrambling to save the people of Rohan, mostly women and children, so this would've been a huge job, and more heroic in my mind then fighting.


To your mind, exactly. But not to Eowyn's mind, which is what's important. I think a lot of people don't allow for the Rohheric mind-set: Tolkien invisioned them as 'homeric horsemen'- rather Celtic or Norse is how I've always pictured them. Cultures that were noble, but a little barbaric, where the emphasize was on glorious death in battle, and to die of old age was shameful. 



> It's all from grace, I suppose. . .a heroine doesn't have to be heroic at all times.


Excellent point. It's Eowyn's strength and boldness that are admirable.


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## HLGStrider (Oct 14, 2003)

> I just realized that Eowyn is who the narrator of Till We Have Faces reminds me of </randomness>



No, I don't think so. . .Orual annoyed me sometimes, anyway, and Eowyn never did. I think Orual was harsh because she was harsh and Eowyn was harsh due to circumstances. Orual had bad circumstances, but she was harsher naturally. I think the most telling scene involving Eowyn, my favorite, is where she looks tearfully at Faramir and says, "But my window does not look west." It's a childish longing that longs to be fulfilled from someone forced to be stronger than they care to be. I don't think Orual would ever give up that strength in that way.

Anyway. . .



> To your mind, exactly. But not to Eowyn's mind, which is what's important.



In my mind it would've been battle and battle is battle. . .


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## Rhiannon (Oct 14, 2003)

> No, I don't think so. . .Orual annoyed me sometimes, anyway, and Eowyn never did. I think Orual was harsh because she was harsh and Eowyn was harsh due to circumstances. Orual had bad circumstances, but she was harsher naturally. I think the most telling scene involving Eowyn, my favorite, is where she looks tearfully at Faramir and says, "But my window does not look west." It's a childish longing that longs to be fulfilled from someone forced to be stronger than they care to be. I don't think Orual would ever give up that strength in that way.



You're certainly right, but they still reminded me of each other. 
And the name Mary makes me think of white roses for no discernable reason. Although, I think Orual was still harsh because of circumstances- her uglyness- it's just that her harshness was older and deeper set.



> In my mind it would've been battle and battle is battle. . .



Except one is waiting for the battle to come to her (inactive), and the other is going out looking for it (proactive). Eowyn, like everyone's favorite Spaniard, hates waiting.


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## HLGStrider (Oct 15, 2003)

My favorite Spaniard is Diego De La Vega!

ZORRO!

I don't think that was who you meant. . .hehe

Anyway, but she needed to protect the underlings!


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## Lhunithiliel (Oct 15, 2003)

I participated in that debate within the Tournament and I had to defend the side that she was right in what she did.... 
But ever since then I've wanted to share my deep understanding that in fact she was NOT right! 

_Hear this Aule?! Snaga?! _   


I'd better not go into too much details. Rhi, and the others of course!, have expressed a lot of the truths so nicely!  
To my personal view, I see only one reason for what Eowyn did - *love*!

I don't think she ever knew anything about her "destiny" to be in the right place, in the right moment as to kill the Witch-king. 

I don't think she desired the battles truly and sincerely, either. Yes she was a proud descendant from a royal line of the proud people of the Rohirrim.... Yes she had that hot blood running in her veins... Yes, she was to some extent bound to Eorl's oath to Gondor ... It is all true! Yet, a lot of battles had been fought before and still she stayed in Meduseld! Why so suddenly then came that desire to go to a war and find a glorious death?
Because a woman, desparate for the love of a man she cannot have, is ready for two things - war and death! It's just our nature!   .... 

So, my views :

As a subject to her King - wrong - for leaving her people with no leader from the royal house to take care of them in the very complicated and dangerous situation of war coming up to them in full force.

As a person - wrong too. What could she achieve by dying? Would've Aragorn loved her for that? No. All she could've caused would've been only too much grief in the heart of her brother and even in Aragorn's heart, because he obviously cared for her. So, what would've her death led to? Grief and sorrow for others... Nothing more. And who could say whether she would've found peace after her death for having taken away a life that was given by Eru and only he had the authority to take it... (the last one of course is a pure speculation!  )

But I see what she did as wrong. 

Yet I do not blame her!! I admire Eowyn very much for what she did even if it was not a right thing to do.
But in love and war everything is possible, allowed and expected. And Eowyn went to a ....."double" war - one with the forces of Sauron and the other one - with herself. 
One would need a great courage to do so!


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## HLGStrider (Oct 15, 2003)

> Because a woman, desparate for the love of a man she cannot have, is ready for two things - war and death!



Never came to my mind. . .of course, I personally still have a bit of hope. . .



> Yet I do not blame her!!



I don't think we have to "blame" someone to say they did something wrong.


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## Lhunithiliel (Oct 15, 2003)

And?........

Thank you very much for analysing so profoundly my post ( not that I want anybody to do that!) ... But I'm just curious to understand what your point is. Please, save my day!


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## HLGStrider (Oct 15, 2003)

Not a whole lot of point. . .I was just agreeing with you that we don't have to blame her but we can still think she did the wrong thing.


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## Lhunithiliel (Oct 15, 2003)

Aaaaaa! .... Now I see


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## Rhiannon (Oct 15, 2003)

> I don't think that was who you meant. . .hehe



I meant Inego from The Princess Bride, but you're right, I think I love Zorro more too. 



> To my personal view, I see only one reason for what Eowyn did - love!



NoNoNo! It's important to realize that Eowyn only _thought_ she was really in love with Aragorn! Even had he been free and willing to love her, she wouldn't have been perfectly happy in the long run, because a relationship between them wouldn't be on an equal footing. She didn't love Aragorn as a _man_- she loved him as an _ideal_, which you can't base a relationship on. 
Eowyn had already given up her 'love' when she went seeking death. 



> I don't think she ever knew anything about her "destiny" to be in the right place, in the right moment as to kill the Witch-king.


Of course not- 'destiny' was the _last_ thing on her mind.



> don't think she desired the battles truly and sincerely, either. Yes she was a proud descendant from a royal line of the proud people of the Rohirrim.... Yes she had that hot blood running in her veins... Yes, she was to some extent bound to Eorl's oath to Gondor ... It is all true! Yet, a lot of battles had been fought before and still she stayed in Meduseld! Why so suddenly then came that desire to go to a war and find a glorious death?


*Because she needed out* No, she didn't desire battle truly and sincerely. She was, as Tolkien himself said, "not a 'dry nurse' in temper, she was also not really a soldier or 'amazon', but like many brave women was capable of great military gallantry at a crisis." But, coming from her culture of warriors, from her experience being raised in a household of men, when she thought of glory (which was what she _thought_ she wanted), she of course thought of war. 
As for a 'lot of battles' being fought before and her staying behind, she didn't _want_ to, that much is very clear. She was _trapped_, by her role, by her status, by her sex; The 'desire to go to a war and find a glorious death' wasn't _sudden_- it was only triggered by Aragorn. He wasn't the cause, just the catalyst.



> s a person - wrong too. What could she achieve by dying? Would've Aragorn loved her for that? No. All she could've caused would've been only too much grief in the heart of her brother and even in Aragorn's heart, because he obviously cared for her. So, what would've her death led to? Grief and sorrow for others... Nothing more.


*But* she would have died of her own choice, in her own time, on her own terms- 'with her boots on', so to speak. If we're all going to die anyway, wouldn't you rather go down fighting and take a few of the enemy with you? I concede that Eowyn was considering only herself in her decision, but was she really _wrong_ to be making choices for herself for once? Was she _wrong_ to take her destiny in to her own hands? 



> But in love and war everything is possible, allowed and expected. And Eowyn went to a ....."double" war - one with the forces of Sauron and the other one - with herself.
> One would need a great courage to do so!


Thank you. I'm so glad you understand the last bit, which is really the important thing  Whether she was 'right' or 'wrong' is subjective- we can argue about it forever (and I'll happily do so- my family would argue with a wall)- but that she was courageous and valient and admirable can't be denied (except by Aule when he's trying to tick me off). 

I concede that she _did_ do what she did for a lot of the 'wrong' reasons, but also for some of the right ones- at the very least it was a proactive step in the general area of the right direction. I concede that what she did being right or wrong is subjective- I think she was _possibly_ wrong on one level, and very right on another- But in the end she's still admirable. She still went through fire and came out stronger at the other end.

<edit> And as I just saw pointed out elseforum recently: On the question of whether Eowyn was a deserter or not, you'll notice that _no character in the book ever mentions the idea. Ever_.


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## Flammifer (Oct 15, 2003)

OK, let's just clear one thing up! Rhi, I'm not going to criticise Eowyn's character, for fear of your wrath! . But I am going to criticise her decision....



> But she had no way of knowing that those orcs were going to show up. She would still have been left stewing in her own depression (not a healthy way to be, which is why on a personal level she was right to go, in my opinion). And the Ents were there. That's a very what-if argument, Aule.



I agree with you that she shouldn't have let herself get all depressed, but I don't think that riding to Gondor would have stopped that. She _knew_ that war would come to her inevitably. She simply knew she'd have to fight. But so eager was she to prove her valour, that she selfishly and rashly disobeyed the orders of her King AND left her own people, who she was supposed to be leading, just to find war that would come to her regardless.



> Desperate, yes, but that doesn't make her not admirable. Maybe staying behind would have been the better thing, but we have no way of knowing. Eowyn was in a high situation ruling, yes, but she was still restricted by the fact that she was a woman. She's obviously been trained to fight, but not allowed to use her training. Yes, she left for primarily selfish reasons. Right thing, wrong reasons. Conceded. As she says to Aragorn: "'Too often have I heard of duty', she cried. 'But am I not of the House of Eorl, a shieldmaiden and not a dry-nurse? I have waited on faltering feet long enough. Since they falter no longer, it seems, may I not now spend my life as I will?'" She wants out. She needs out. And later: "She answered: 'All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more.'" (I just realized that Eowyn is who the narrator of Till We Have Faces reminds me of </randomness>



We're not debating how admirable Eowyn was in battle (well, I'm not), but her rash decision to go to battle. You say "She wants out. She needs out." Granted. But sometimes you need to put the needs of the masses ahead of your personal desires. Eowyn, as the appointed ruler of her people whilst Theoden was at battle, needed to do this. She _should_ have done this. But she didn't. It was a rash, selfish decision. Luckily it turned out for the best!


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## Rhiannon (Oct 15, 2003)

> Rhi, I'm not going to criticise Eowyn's character, for fear of your wrath!



Aw, c'mon. I won't hurt you. 

Much.



> I agree with you that she shouldn't have let herself get all depressed, but I don't think that riding to Gondor would have stopped that. She knew that war would come to her inevitably. She simply knew she'd have to fight. But so eager was she to prove her valour, that she selfishly and rashly disobeyed the orders of her King AND left her own people, who she was supposed to be leading, just to find war that would come to her regardless.



She did *not* know that war would come to her. And she *wasn't* content to sit and wait for it. She was *not* 'eager to prove her valour', she wanted _death_. She _did_ leave her people, but she was already done leading them to the refuge. Was she ordered to _stay_? Theoden obviously _expected_ her too, but men expects lots of things. Was she disobeying a direct command? Was she _really_ putting the people in so much jeopardy by leaving? What difference would her presence have made? 
Remember that she had the support of Elfhelm, who comes off as a reasonable and trustworthy character to me. Would he have helped her deception if it would endanger the people? 
You're right, riding to Gondor _didn't_ stop her depression. Faramir's love and understanding, and his acceptance of her as she was, took away Eowyn's depression. Being loved unconditionally took away the need to prove herself (you notice that the need, the sense of worthlessness, didn't go away even after she slew the Nazgul. She still felt that she hadn't done _enough_). Eowyn didn't fight because she _liked_ it; she was brave, yes, very, and skilled, yes; she was more than _capable_ of fighting, but it gave her no pleasure, except as a way to prove herself. But taking action was a step in the right direction. (can you tell that the misconception of Eowyn as some kind of Xena Warrior-Princess is one of my pet peeves? That and her love for Aragorn meaning she didn't love Faramir and was only on the rebound. THAT bugs me). 



> Granted. But sometimes you need to put the needs of the masses ahead of your personal desires. Eowyn, as the appointed ruler of her people whilst Theoden was at battle, needed to do this. She should have done this. But she didn't. It was a rash, selfish decision. Luckily it turned out for the best!



'The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one', right, Spock  Right, sometimes you _do_ need to put the needs of the masses ahead of your personal desires. But _sometimes_ you need to put the needs of _yourself_ first. Eowyn was being slowly suffocated and *no one was doing anything about it*.


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## Lhunithiliel (Oct 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rhiannon _
> NoNoNo! It's important to realize that Eowyn only _thought_ she was really in love with Aragorn! Even had he been free and willing to love her, she wouldn't have been perfectly happy in the long run, because a relationship between them wouldn't be on an equal footing. She didn't love Aragorn as a _man_- she loved him as an _ideal_, which you can't base a relationship on.


I wonder.... Where then to fit Tolkien's own views on love, man-woman relations etc, as we read them in his Letter No:43 : (just bits)


> *A man has a life-work*, a career, (and male friends), all of which could (and do where he has any guts) survive the shipwreck of 'love'.
> 
> Anyway women are in general much less romantic and more practical. Don't be misled by the fact that they are more 'sentimental' in words – freer with 'darling', and all that. They do not want a guiding star. *They may idealize a plain young man into a hero; but they don't really need any such glamour either to fall in love or to remain in it.* If they have any delusion it is that they can 'reform' men. They will take a rotter open-eyed, and even when the delusion of reforming him fails, go on loving him. ...



That was speaking about "idealizing" partners. I deffinitely think Arwen was Aragorn's "goddess", his "divine ideal" ... As for Eowyn, I agree that to a great extent she had idealized Aragorn...but I think she was truly in love with the *real*him. And I am also deeply convinced that even if she married Faramir, that love...or rather said - the bitterness of not being able to have it - lived forever in her. I am not convinced at all that she loved Faramir the way she did Aragorn! 



> Eowyn had already given up her 'love' when she went seeking death.


How did you come to this conclusion!!!!???? 



> Because she needed out. No, she didn't desire battle truly and sincerely. She was, as Tolkien himself said, "not a 'dry nurse' in temper, she was also not really a soldier or 'amazon', but like many brave women was capable of great military gallantry at a crisis." But, coming from her culture of warriors, from her experience being raised in a household of men, when she thought of glory (which was what she _thought_ she wanted), she of course thought of war.
> As for a 'lot of battles' being fought before and her staying behind, she didn't _want_ to, that much is very clear. She was _trapped_, by her role, by her status, by her sex; The 'desire to go to a war and find a glorious death' wasn't _sudden_- it was only triggered by Aragorn. He wasn't the cause, just the catalyst.


Agree on these features of her characters! Still.... You said it - it was all "triggered" by her love for Aragorn ...so ... in the final run...here we come again to love! 



> *But* she would have died of her own choice, in her own time, on her own terms- 'with her boots on', so to speak. If we're all going to die anyway, wouldn't you rather go down fighting and take a few of the enemy with you? I concede that Eowyn was considering only herself in her decision, but was she really _wrong_ to be making choices for herself for once? Was she _wrong_ to take her destiny in to her own hands?


She was true to herself! What she did was only because not being able to have Aragorn's love was the "last drop in the cup of bitterness" that life had been offering to her for a long time! And she finally decided to "drink" it in full.


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## Rhiannon (Oct 15, 2003)

> That was speaking about "idealizing" partners. I deffinitely think Arwen was Aragorn's "goddess", his "divine ideal" ...As for Eowyn, I agree that to a great extent she had idealized Aragorn...but I think she was truly in love with him. And I am also deeply convinced that even if she married Faramir, that love...or rather said - the bitterness of not being able to have it - lived forever in her. I am not convinced at all that she loved Faramir the way she did Aragorn!



Of course she didn't! She _did_ love Aragorn, but as Faramir says, "You desired the love of the Lord Aragorn. Because he was high and puissant, and you wished to have renown and glory and to be lifted far above the mean things that crawl on the earth. And as a great captain may seem to a young soldier he seemed to you admirable." She didn't love Aragorn the man, but loved and admired Aragorn the king, and saw him as a way out of her 'cage'. As I said, a relationship between them could never have been one of equals. As Tolkien says in Letter 244: "It is possible to love more than one person (of the other sex) at the same time, but in a *different mode and intensity*. I do not think that Eowyn's feelings for Aragorn really changed much; and when he was revealed as so lofty a figure, in descent and office, she was able to go on _loving_ and admiring him." (bold text mine, italics Tolkien's). 


> I am also deeply convinced that even if she married Faramir, that love...or rather said - the bitterness of not being able to have it - lived forever in her.


Ouch. You've hit it: my Number One Pet Peeve. Eowyn did *not* marry Faramir because she was on the rebound, she did *not* continue to pine after Aragorn, she was *not* bitter, and she *did* truly love Faramir. When it says "Then the heart of Eowyn changed, *or else at last she understood it*. And suddenly her winter passed, and the sun shone on her" that is Eowyn realizing that what she thought she wanted wasn't it at all- what she _wanted_ was the unconditional love that Faramir gives her. Faramir was not her second choice; he was the choice she hadn’t realized she had. *Eowyn's love for Faramir is never in doubt!*



> How did you come to this conclusion!!!!????


By reading the book, she said facetiously. As Faramir says: "But when he [Aragorn] gave you only understanding and pity, then you desired to have *nothing, unless a brave death in battle*." 



> Agree on these features of her characters! Still.... You said it: it was all "triggered" by her love for Aragorn ...so ... in the final run...here we come again to love!


...except it wasn't really love! It was just the straw that broke the camel's back. It was the door slamming in the face that sends you jumping out the nearest window. She was looking at Aragorn as her last way out, and when he denied her she took matters in to her own hands.



> She was true to herself! What she did was only because not being able to have Aragorn's love was the "last drop in the cup of bitterness" that life had been offering to her for a long time! And she finally decided to "drink" it in full.


Yes, exactly- so how is being true to herself _wrong_???


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## Flammifer (Oct 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rhiannon_
> She did not know that war would come to her. And she wasn't content to sit and wait for it. She was not 'eager to prove her valour', she wanted death. She did leave her people, but she was already done leading them to the refuge. Was she ordered to stay? Theoden obviously expected her too, but men expects lots of things. Was she disobeying a direct command? Was she really putting the people in so much jeopardy by leaving? What difference would her presence have made?



She was the last of the House or Eorl. She was, by blood, her people's leader. It was her responsibility to stay with them, to whatever end. She was leading women and children. All loved her. They would follow her. If not her, then who? She was the last of the ruling house. If they had needed to flee Dunharrow, she would have needed to lead them. If the appointed leader did not do her job, chaos would have broken out, should they have needed to flee.



> _Originally posted by Rhiannon_Remember that she had the support of Elfhelm, who comes off as a reasonable and trustworthy character to me. Would he have helped her deception if it would endanger the people?



Touché. A good point. But Eowyn is a trustworty and kindly character, also. Yet from what I claim we cannot trust her judgement. So why should be trust Elfhelm's?



> _Originally posted by Rhiannon_
> Eowyn didn't fight because she liked it; she was brave, yes, very, and skilled, yes; she was more than capable of fighting, but it gave her no pleasure, except as a way to prove herself.



There you go. You've said it yourself. She wanted to prove herself. Yet she could have done it in whatever company or in any place. There was no doubt in her mind that at a point she would have to fight. This point, surely, can't be disputed, considering the times.



> _Originally posted by Rhiannon_
> 'The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one', right, Spock Right, sometimes you do need to put the needs of the masses ahead of your personal desires. But sometimes you need to put the needs of yourself first. Eowyn was being slowly suffocated and no one was doing anything about it.



Is Spock from Star Trek? Well, I didn't base my comment on that. I just kind of said it. It makes sense to me! I agree that occasionally you need to put your own requirements first. But I don't think that this was such a time. War would come to her anyway. She'd have to fight eventually. If anything, like Elgee said, she would have won more renown fighting in Dunharrow or somewhere, trying to protect her people, rather than winning renown amongst others who might have done more. It was unforeseeable that she did end up winning renown that dwarfed that of others at the Pelennor.


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## Rhiannon (Oct 15, 2003)

> She was the last of the House or Eorl. She was, by blood, her people's leader. It was her responsibility to stay with them, to whatever end. She was leading women and children. All loved her. They would follow her. If not her, then who? She was the last of the ruling house. If they had needed to flee Dunharrow, she would have needed to lead them. If the appointed leader did not do her job, chaos would have broken out, should they have needed to flee.



Had they needed to flee...where to? They didn't have anywhere else to flee _to_. But you make it sound as though nothing could have been done without Eowyn's presence. There were Riders left at Dunharrow, and captains, who must have known she was gone. My idea is that Elfhelm arranged things, but that's just a thought. There's no evidence. But the people were not without protection and leadership. Why so important to have a member of the ruling house present?



> Touché. A good point. But Eowyn is a trustworty and kindly character, also. Yet from what I claim we cannot trust her judgement. So why should be trust Elfhelm's?


Why should we trust anyone's? But Eowyn was under duress, depression, all kinds of chaos beneath the surface that might make her judgement questionable: Elfhelm has (as far as we know) no such issues. 



> There you go. You've said it yourself. She wanted to prove herself. Yet she could have done it in whatever company or in any place. There was no doubt in her mind that at a point she would have to fight. This point, surely, can't be disputed, considering the times.


Yes, it's undeniable that she wanted to prove herself...but when you want to prove yourself you don't wait for the opportunity to come to you! There _was_ a doubt in her mind that she would at some point have the _opportunity_ to fight- she believed that she would always be left behind to 'tend the house', always pushed back in to her cage. 



> s Spock from Star Trek? Well, I didn't base my comment on that. I just kind of said it. It makes sense to me! I agree that occasionally you need to put your own requirements first. But I don't think that this was such a time. War would come to her anyway. She'd have to fight eventually. If anything, like Elgee said, she would have won more renown fighting in Dunharrow or somewhere, trying to protect her people, rather than winning renown amongst others who might have done more. It was unforeseeable that she did end up winning renown that dwarfed that of others at the Pelennor.


Yes, Spock is from Star Trek. I didn't think you got it from there, it just reminded me of it and I was being facetious. It _is_ almost 3am, I'm allowed to be silly even while ranting. Eowyn did *not* think that war would come to her. As far as she knew, the war would (and was, except for those errant orcs) be fought and finished in Gondor. Had she remained at Dunharrow, the war still wouldn't have come to her- I hear a lot of 'if the ents hadn't been there...' but they _were_, so no, Eowyn wouldn't have had the opportunity to fight because they were already dealt with. The *point* is Eowyn taking control of her destiny, breaking out of her cage, freeing herself from the constrictions of her role.


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## Lhunithiliel (Oct 15, 2003)

> Of course she didn't! She did love Aragorn, but as Faramir says, "You desired the love of the Lord Aragorn. Because he was high and puissant, and you wished to have renown and glory and to be lifted far above the mean things that crawl on the earth. And as a great captain may seem to a young soldier he seemed to you admirable." She didn't love Aragorn the man, but loved and admired Aragorn the king, and saw him as a way out of her 'cage'.


Never will I agree on such a thing!  Not the King she loved! Because not the King came to Edoras and not the King the fair Rohan Princess spotted out but the *man*! And the *man* it was that she fell in love with! At that time... how much did Eowyn know about Aragorn? Did she know him as the King of Gondor? No! But as a man he attracted her attention and for what he was, for the way he acted, for being a friend to her brother and her uncle, even for the way he looked... she fell in love with the man! 
So... You see.... It was not Aragorn the King whom she met first and fell in love with! It was Aragorn - the man!

As for Faramir's words... He loved her deeply ... yet... I am completely sure that what he was saying was only to try to comfort her. He was a clever boy, that Faramir!  He would've never expected Eowyn to love him as she loved Aragorn. Yet..."Why not try and analyse your love, my dear?! Let me show you that you could perhaps love me too...For I deserve it! "  And just too well he deserved her love!!!! He deserved any woman's love!!! Yet.... What Faramir did for Eowyn was for love only.... But one would be mistaken if takes those words for granted without trying to feel what lies beneath them.
As for Eowyn herself ..... Didn't you provide that excellent quote from T's Letter:


> As Tolkien says in Letter 244: "It is possible to love more than one person (of the other sex) at the same time, but in a different mode and intensity.



And with the risk of being crucified ... Why is it that I think of that fable about the _fox and the grapes _ when I read those extracts when Eowyn's heart was "cured" from her "false" love to Aragorn....?!?

I know... I know! You'll say: "Lhun, it's all there in the book as Tolkien has written it!". Sure! Yet few are the complex and "multy-layer" - characters that he worked on in his LOTR and Eowyn is fortunately one of them. One cannot only read the lines about her and not try read between them!


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## Rhiannon (Oct 15, 2003)

> Never will I agree on such a thing! Not the King she loved! Because not the King came to Edoras and not the King the fair Rohan Princess spotted out but the man! And the man it was that she fell in love with! At that time... how much did Eowyn know about Aragorn? Did she know him as the King of Gondor? No! But as a man he attracted her attention and for what he was, for the way he acted, for being a friend to her brother and her uncle, even for the way he looked... she fell in love with the man!
> So... You see.... It was not Aragorn the King whom she met first and fell in love with! It was Aragorn - the man!


He _aura_ of greatness, then. No one can deny that Aragorn had charisma oozing out of his pores. Eowyn had plenty of opportunities to see him taking charge. And as you said- how much did Eowyn know about Aragorn? Nothing! How can you really love someone you know nothing about?



> As for Faramir's words... He loved her deeply ... yet... I am completely sure that what he was saying was only to try to comfort her.


*mutters* _Heathen_...Tolkien makes it very clear that Faramir is 'clear-sighted', that in some ways he understands Eowyn better than she does herself. He sees her _as she is_, as a woman, free of all the things that have defined her to everyone else for so long. 



> He would've never expected Eowyn to love him as she loved Aragorn.


Nor did he. Tolkien also makes it clear that Eowyn's love for Aragorn was of a different kind entirely.



> And just too well he deserved her love!!!! He deserved any woman's love!!! Yet.... What Faramir did for Eowyn was for love only.... But one would be mistaken if takes those words for granted without trying to feel what lies beneath them.


I'm flabbergasted, really I am. You're saying Faramir _lied_ to Eowyn in order to secure her affections for himself and 'comfort' her, but this is okay because he deserved her????
Paint me white and call me Moby ****. 



> Why is it that I think of that fable about the fox and the grapes when I read those extracts when Eowyn's heart was "cured" from her "false" love to Aragorn....?!?


Not 'cured' of a 'false love, merely recognizing one kind of love as not being the king she thought it was. Her feelings didn't change, she just understood what they were. "The heart of Eowyn changed, or else *at last she understood it*."


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## Lhunithiliel (Oct 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rhiannon _
> He _aura_ of greatness, then. No one can deny that Aragorn had charisma oozing out of his pores. Eowyn had plenty of opportunities to see him taking charge. And as you said- how much did Eowyn know about Aragorn? Nothing! How can you really love someone you know nothing about?


Yes! One can! It's called _love at first sight_ and it is such a common phenomenon in both - real and imaginary worlds. For what is happening in an imaginary world is nothing but some sort of odd reflection of the real one.



> *mutters* _Heathen_...Tolkien makes it very clear that Faramir is 'clear-sighted', that in some ways he understands Eowyn better than she does herself. He sees her _as she is_, as a woman, free of all the things that have defined her to everyone else for so long.


And ? What does it have to do with her self-denial? And the with the reasons to do so - some out of responsibility as being from a royal blood , but most of all - out of the despair for finding a love and understanding she cannot have it. He may very well understand her... but it does not change *her* state of mind and soul.



> Nor did he. Tolkien also makes it clear that Eowyn's love for Aragorn was of a different kind entirely.


You know.... we're coming into the danger of starting a large philosophic discussion of what _love_ is and does it or does it not have "many faces"  



> I'm flabbergasted, really I am. You're saying Faramir _lied_ to Eowyn in order to secure her affections for himself and 'comfort' her, but this is okay because he deserved her????
> Paint me white and call me Moby ****.


Hmmm... Honestly.. I did not quite well understood that with the "Moby" - thing... 
Anyway... When have I said that Faramir *lied* to Eowyn????? Common!!! You're wrong to have understood my words about Faramir as if I picture him as a lusful lier! He was not Wormtongue!!! I said that he was all enough worthy her love (as any woman's) for what he was! His love for her was pure....yet sadly...he had to be the "second fiddle". And no matter how sad that was, he still loved her dearly and he was honest to him for not pretending and thinking and having illusions that she could ever love him as she loved Aragorn! 



> Not 'cured' of a 'false love, merely recognizing one kind of love as not being the king she thought it was. Her feelings didn't change, she just understood what they were. "The heart of Eowyn changed, or else *at last she understood it*."


And what *exactly* did she understand?


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## Rhiannon (Oct 15, 2003)

> Yes! One can! It's called love at first sight and it is such a common phenomenon in both - real and imaginary worlds. For what is happening in an imaginary world is nothing but some sort of odd reflection of the real one.


_Not_ a phenomenon I have much faith in. Yes, I know lots of people who have fallen in 'love at first sight', that is, at first meeting, but they _all_ spent a lot of time _talking_ during that first meeting, which Eowyn and Aragorn did _not_. 



> And ? What does it have to do with her self-denial? And the with the reasons to do so - some out of responsibility as being from a royal blood , but most of all - out of the despair for finding a love and understanding she cannot have it. He may very well understand her... but it does not change her state of mind and soul.


Yes it DOES. Faramir is what she didn't _realize_ she wanted. We've established that Eowyn wasn't really a warrior by nature, though perfectly capable of it and coming from a culture that dictated being a warrior as the most honourable of occupations. When she tells Faramir she will be a healer, she isn't changing _herself_, she's only realizing that she doesn't _need_ this warrior-stuff to _be_ herself. She comes in to her own- she understands her own heart. It doesn't _change_ her mind or soul, but it _does_ change the 'state' of them- she finds peace. 



> You know.... we're coming into the danger of starting a large philosophic discussion of what love is and does it or does it not have "many faces"


It _does_ have many faces- the Greeks had what, three different words for love? Or was it four? 



> Hmmm... Honestly.. I did not quite well understood that with the "Moby" - thing...


Moby D-i-c-k, the very long novel about the white whale. Never mind, it was 3am, I'm entitled to spout silly nonsense in between arguments.



> Anyway... When have I said that Faramir lied to Eowyn????? Common!!! You're wrong to have understood my words about Faramir as if I picture him as a lusful lier! He was not Wormtongue!!! I said that he was all enough worthy her love (as any woman's) for what he was! His love for her was pure....yet sadly...he had to be the "second fiddle". And no matter how sad that was, he still loved her dearly and he was honest to him for not pretending and thinking and having illusions that she could ever love him as she loved Aragorn!


You _said_ "I am completely sure that what he was saying was only to try to comfort her. He was a clever boy, that Faramir!" Doesn't that mean he didn't really mean what he said? Faramir was *not* her second choice- he was the choice she didn't realize she had. She _didn't_ love his as she loved Aragorn, she loved him differently and _more truly_. Even as Aragorn says to Eomer in 'The Houses of Healing': "Few other griefs amid the ill chances of this world have more bitterness and shame for a man's heart than to behold the love of a lady so fair and brave that cannot be returned. Sorrow and pity have followed me ever since I left her desperate in Dunharrow and rode to the Paths of the Dead; and no fear upon that way was so present as the fear of what might befall her. And yet, Eomer *I say to you that she loves you more truly than me; for you she loves and knows; but in me she loves only a shadow and a thought: a hope of glory and great deeds, and lands far from the fields of Rohan*."



> And what exactly did she understand?


1. That she did not love Aragorn in the way she thought she did.
2. That she did not want death in battle as she thought she did, but only saw it as her only way out.
3. That her desire for honor and glory was based in her feelings of worthlessness and of being trapped, left behind and forgotten. As Tolkien wrote, she was not 'ambitious in the true political sense'. She wanted to be valued, she had no real desire for power.
4. That what she wanted and needed was to be loved, valued, and cherished, to know that she was not alone, not forgotten.
5. That she was not going to get these things from Aragorn, or from glory, or from death.
6. That what she wanted was what Faramir was offering her- unconditional love.

If Eowyn did not truly love Faramir, why did she turn pale and sad again after he left the Houses of Healing? Why didn't she go to Cormallen, where she would have been able to see Aragorn?


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## HLGStrider (Oct 15, 2003)

*doobie doobie doo*



> It's important to realize that Eowyn only thought she was really in love with Aragorn!


I'm a great defender of the Eowyn really did love Aragorn theory, not because of any dislike of Faramir or my over active Aragorn admiration, but simply due to my A. Beliefs on love and B. my experiences with love.



> Eowyn had already given up her 'love' when she went seeking death.



I don't think she did. I think she didn't give up on Aragorn until Faramir began to grow in her heart. Then I think she went through the struggle any girl would go through loving two men at once. I think that the love of Aragorn would've faded into a dim memory, and probably a bitter one, without Faramir, but with Faramir it was allowed not to grow bitter. It was allowed to rest and become a desire to see Aragorn happy. . .imagine what she would've thought of Arwen had this not happened. . .or of Aragorn for that matter. However, in the one time we see Eowyn address Aragorn after the Faramir thing she seems kindly disposed towards him but not embarrassed or bitter as I think she would be if she'd realized it was just a kid crushed (Embarrassed if she recovered in an "I CAN'T believe what I was doing because of this guy! He must think I'm such an idiot. ..and what would Faramir say if he knew? Or Eomer! Eomer will never let me forget it. . .like the time I said I wanted to marry the captain of the guards. He teased me for six months. And I was SEVEN! . . ." kind of way. 
Bitter if she recovered in a "Gosh, he really isn't that great. You know he's sort of old for me. I really wouldn't have liked him anyway. . ." sort of way. . .maybe not bitter but she wouldn't have wanted friendship.)

Only in maintaining love but growing it into the sort that wants the best for the other person instead of the best for yourself (Agape over Erros to bring up those Greek words), can what Eowyn reached be achieved.



> If we're all going to die anyway, wouldn't you rather go down fighting and take a few of the enemy with you?



Not personally. . . Isn't there a stay at home and write option?





> Was she wrong to take her destiny in to her own hands?



At the cost of others, yes.



> Was she really putting the people in so much jeopardy by leaving?



She was breaking promises. You have to remember that she was appointed by Theoden at the REQUEST pf the people. I imagine there was near panic when they realized she was gone. They probably felt abandoned. However, I imagine they forgave her when they heard what happened.



> Would he have helped her deception if it would endanger the people?



For the love of his princess? Yes, probably.



> She still felt that she hadn't done enough



I wouldn't say her feelings are of inadequacy. Rather she didn't know what she had to live for or the reason to live. I've felt that way before due to love. It's lonely and you think, "What am I going to do without him? Without the life I wanted for us?" I think the battle and death in it was an easy answer to that question.



> I am not convinced at all that she loved Faramir the way she did Aragorn!



Love has a dozen faces. I think she eventually loved Faramir a LOT more.



> Yes, exactly- so how is being true to herself wrong???



Easily. 



> 'The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one', right, Spock



I've never liked this and have argued against this before. .. I think Harad got insulted when I called him a Vulcan, but that was Harad. . .

Anyway, I think that right outways wrong. I think the wrong was broken promises.



> Elfhelm has (as far as we know) no such issues.



Well, he is going to a counselor on tuesdays and Fridays and AA on sundays. . .



> No one can deny that Aragorn had charisma oozing out of his pores.



Bill Ferny probably would.




> You know.... we're coming into the danger of starting a large philosophic discussion of what love is and does it or does it not have "many faces"



Eriol would love that. . .



> Not a phenomenon I have much faith in.



In our world, no. In Tolkien's, yes. Think Beren and Luthien. Think Arwen and Aragorn.


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## Rhiannon (Oct 16, 2003)

> I'm a great defender of the Eowyn really did love Aragorn theory, not because of any dislike of Faramir or my over active Aragorn admiration, but simply due to my A. Beliefs on love and B. my experiences with love.


And Eowyn really _did_ love Aragorn, just not in the way she thought she did. 



> However, in the one time we see Eowyn address Aragorn after the Faramir thing she seems kindly disposed towards him but not embarrassed or bitter as I think she would be if she'd realized it was just a kid crushed (Embarrassed if she recovered in an "I CAN'T believe what I was doing because of this guy! He must think I'm such an idiot. ..and what would Faramir say if he knew? Or Eomer! Eomer will never let me forget it. . .like the time I said I wanted to marry the captain of the guards. He teased me for six months. And I was SEVEN! . . ." kind of way.


...that's because it wasn't really a 'crush', either. Nor was it 'true' love. It was primarily _admiration_ above all else, which Aragorn himself says, and later Faramir.



> Only in maintaining love but growing it into the sort that wants the best for the other person instead of the best for yourself (Agape over Erros to bring up those Greek words), can what Eowyn reached be achieved.


Very true, I agree that far. But I can't get around the idea of having 'true' love for two people- you can love/admire/be fond of/border-line in love with someone, but not have _true_ love for more than one person. So maybe this is just a hang-up on my part, but to say Eowyn is _really_ still in love with Aragorn, to me, completely cheapens her love for Faramir- and in case no one has noticed this, Eowyn and Faramir are the most important part of the book to me. "Well Eowyn and Faramir do this- and oh yeah, there was this thing with a ring."



> Not personally. . . Isn't there a stay at home and write option?


Well, okay...Elgee doesn't want to go down fighting, but that's okay. But Eowyn wanted to go down fighting, which is the point.



> At the cost of others, yes.


My point is that is _wasn't_ at the cost of others.



> She was breaking promises. You have to remember that she was appointed by Theoden at the REQUEST pf the people. I imagine there was near panic when they realized she was gone. They probably felt abandoned. However, I imagine they forgave her when they heard what happened.


At the reguest of _Hama_, you mean. I rather thing, especially as she had the support of Elfhelm, that arrangments had been made.


> For the love of his princess? Yes, probably.


I don't really think so, myself.



> I wouldn't say her feelings are of inadequacy. Rather she didn't know what she had to live for or the reason to live. I've felt that way before due to love. It's lonely and you think, "What am I going to do without him? Without the life I wanted for us?" I think the battle and death in it was an easy answer to that question.


I object to pinning _all_ Eowyn's motivations on love. There was so much else going on! Gandalf said to Eomer, "My friend, you had horses, and deeds of arms, and the free fields; but she, born in the body of a maid, had a spirit and courage at least the match of yours. Yet she was doomed to wait upon an old man, whom she loved as a father, and watch him falling into a mean dishonoured dotage; and her part seem to her more ignoble than that of the staff that he leaned on. _Think you that Wormtongue had poison only for Theoden's ears?_...My lord, if your sister's love for you, and her will still bent to her duty, had not restrained her lips, you might have heard even such things as these escapte them. But who knows what she spoke to the darkness, alone, in the bitter watches of the night, when _all her life seemed shrinking, and the walls of her bower closing in about her, a hutch to trammel some wild thing in?"_ Of _course_ she felt inadequate! Her feelings of being trapped, useless, left behind, all started _before Aragorn ever showed up!_



> Love has a dozen faces. I think she eventually loved Faramir a LOT more.


_Eventually_ is what I take issue with- I think she realized she loved him more truly and deeply almost immediately, once she admitted it to herself.



> Anyway, I think that right outways wrong. I think the wrong was broken promises.


Yes, conceded. As a subject she did the wrong thing. I can agree with that. But for herself, it was the right thing to do. 



> In our world, no. In Tolkien's, yes. Think Beren and Luthien. Think Arwen and Aragorn.


...which I don't find particularly romantic myself, but I _do_ understand that they are meant to be Romantic in the very capital 'R' sense. The very reason I prefer Eowyn and Faramir so much more is that it's on a _human_ level. Not a great epic white horse-fainting damsel-complete 3 impossible tasks-wall of fire kind of level. Arwen as a character was invented specifically to echo Luthien (poor Arwen, she does get shortchanged. I don't dislike her as much as I used to). 

...and this has taken the thread _way_ off topic, as much as I enjoy arguing about it. Is there another thread on the subject we can move to?


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## HLGStrider (Oct 16, 2003)

> And Eowyn really did love Aragorn, just not in the way she thought she did.



I think she was very aware of the way she felt at sometimes and not in others. . .we never exactly know what she's thinking. We just hear other people saying what they think she's thinking.



> ...that's because it wasn't really a 'crush', either. Nor was it 'true' love. It was primarily admiration above all else, which Aragorn himself says, and later Faramir.



I think true love in this case is a deceptive phrase. It implies the other type is false. I think what Eowyn had would've been disappointed in that Aragorn was actually human, it was slightly romantisized, but I think it was mostly true, as opposed to false. If it was admiration, it was taken to the level of infatuation which is basically the same as a crush. . .and brothers tease no matter how real it is.



> But I can't get around the idea of having 'true' love for two people- you can love/admire/be fond of/border-line in love with someone, but not have true love for more than one person.



Again, we'd have to define true love. . .I think it is obviously possible to love twice, otherwise widows wouldn't ever remarry, and we know they do occasionally. You mean two living men at the same time, however. I really believe it is. I know I will always love the man I love now even if he never loves me back. I also know that someday I will find a mutual lover and marry him. . .hopefully the boy I love now. (Crosses fingers)



> Well, okay...Elgee doesn't want to go down fighting, but that's okay.



Nope. No fighting. I'll stay by the fire and purr. . .



> But Eowyn wanted to go down fighting, which is the point.



She wanted to go down. She could've gone down fighting at home.



> At the reguest of Hama, you mean. I rather thing, especially as she had the support of Elfhelm, that arrangments had been made.



Hama by the request of the people. . .at least he made it seem so. . .all that "the people love your house" stuff.



> I don't really think so, myself.


I do. There is a fondness for a monarch that isn't easy to turn down.



> I object to pinning all Eowyn's motivations on love.



I do think it is a little far fetched to putting it all on love. She would've wanted to fight without the love. It certainly helped motivate her, however. I think she may have suffered to stay because of duty and love for her uncle and people if Aragorn hadn't added that final tinge of desperation. I think it was him that put the idea of dying in her head.



> Of course she felt inadequate! Her feelings of being trapped, useless, left behind, all started before Aragorn ever showed up!



But I wouldn't say inadequate. She knew she could fight. She knew she could comfort a dotard. She knew this, she knew that. . .

I think this is the key to that quote:


> My lord, if your sister's love for you, and her will still bent to her duty


Duty.
Yes, she felt her job was ignoble. However, she felt she had to do it because of duty. She had to stay in that terrible place with that terrible Worm. She had to care for her uncle. I never see a place where she gains self-worth. I don't think that was what her quest was about. Purpose,yes. I see places where she finds purpose, but self-worth, no. She felt she was capable of more. She felt she deserved more. Otherwise she would've shrunk into the dust before Aragorn instead of reaching for him.



> Eventually is what I take issue with- I think she realized she loved him more truly and deeply almost immediately, once she admitted it to herself.



About when he kissed her, I'd say. Before that it was Aragorn.





> which I don't find particularly romantic myself, but I do understand that they are meant to be Romantic in the very capital 'R' sense.



It's due to the purity of Middle Earth. It's a bad guys where black hats sort of world. You can look into someone's eyes and read their heart. It doesn't take much to sense good from evil. Aragorn more than loved Arwen at first sight. He _knew_ Arwen at first sight.


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## Rhiannon (Oct 16, 2003)

> I think true love in this case is a deceptive phrase. It implies the other type is false. I think what Eowyn had would've been disappointed in that Aragorn was actually human, it was slightly romantisized, but I think it was mostly true, as opposed to false. If it was admiration, it was taken to the level of infatuation which is basically the same as a crush. . .and brothers tease no matter how real it is.


All right- it is deceptive, I suppose. Her love for Aragorn is most certainly not false, although her interpretation of it might have been. It _was_ admiration, but not a crush- rather as a last desperate way out.



> Again, we'd have to define true love. . .I think it is obviously possible to love twice, otherwise widows wouldn't ever remarry, and we know they do occasionally. You mean two living men at the same time, however. I really believe it is.


It is possible to love twice, and possible to love two living men at the same time, but they are _different_ kinds of love. "...different mode and intensity" as Tolkien puts it. 



> She wanted to go down. She could've gone down fighting at home.


I _covered_ this already. No she _couldn't_. She couldn't sit and wait.



> Hama by the request of the people. . .at least he made it seem so. . .all that "the people love your house" stuff.


It's not like he ran out and asked for a show of hands or anything.



> I do think it is a little far fetched to putting it all on love. She would've wanted to fight without the love. It certainly helped motivate her, however. I think she may have suffered to stay because of duty and love for her uncle and people if Aragorn hadn't added that final tinge of desperation. I think it was him that put the idea of dying in her head.


He was the catalyst, yes. Because she saw him as her _last chance_ and her turned her down.



> Duty.
> Yes, she felt her job was ignoble. However, she felt she had to do it because of duty. She had to stay in that terrible place with that terrible Worm. She had to care for her uncle. I never see a place where she gains self-worth. I don't think that was what her quest was about. Purpose,yes. I see places where she finds purpose, but self-worth, no. She felt she was capable of more. She felt she deserved more. Otherwise she would've shrunk into the dust before Aragorn instead of reaching for him.


But that's exactly why it _is_ about self-worth. She had no way to find self-worth in the situation she was in, and her confidence and spirit were being undermined every day: She was completely defined by her sex and her rank. Caged. She had to break out before she could find self-worth. If she had stayed behind, even if she had met Faramir later, could she have given herself to him, when she was still trapped?



> It's due to the purity of Middle Earth. It's a bad guys where black hats sort of world. You can look into someone's eyes and read their heart. It doesn't take much to sense good from evil. Aragorn more than loved Arwen at first sight. He knew Arwen at first sight.


And I understand and accept that, which is why I refuse to believe that Eowyn and Faramir's love could be anything less than 100% True Love.


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## HLGStrider (Oct 17, 2003)

> It was admiration, but not a crush- rather as a last desperate way out.



I don't see this. I think it may have something to do with why she chose to love Aragorn. He did offer a better life than what she had. However, I think she would've been content if he'd given her something to hope for, a purpose if you will. "I can wait for him to come back" type of thing. 

I truly believe, had Aragorn not been involved already and had he somehow loved her, Eowyn and Aragorn could've been a happy couple. . .though I doubt she would've liked portions of their lives together due to the responsiblities of queenship. She would've had to compromise somethings, but it could've been done.



> It is possible to love twice, and possible to love two living men at the same time, but they are different kinds of love. "...different mode and intensity" as Tolkien puts it.



Yes, but not less true. Obviously romantic love for two men at once would be inconvenient to say the least.



> I covered this already. No she couldn't. She couldn't sit and wait.



Why not? I think she could've. She didn't want to. It may have made her more bitter, but she could've, and if it hadn't been for desperation I think she might've. Aragorn gave Eowyn the thrust she needed to put aside duty in favor of desperation. 

I think that if she'd have been thinking clearly the duty would've appealed to her.



> It's not like he ran out and asked for a show of hands or anything.



No, but he seemed to have a feel for the feel of the people. .wait a moment. . .

I give up. I don't have time to look for the exact quote, but he did seem to be speaking for the people if not from them.



> Because she saw him as her last chance and her turned her down.



I don't think he was a last chance. I think he was a man who she loved. I think love for a great man she saw as a great chance, but I think the chance without the love (a marriage of convenience where she didn't love him or just luring him into taking her with him due to her fairness) wouldn't have had the appeal or the effect.



> She had no way to find self-worth in the situation she was in, and her confidence and spirit were being undermined every day:



On the contrary, I see a lot of pride in Eowyn. I see that she felt that her lot wasn't worthy of her. I can see that the effect Wormtongue had on her was almost making her despise the uncle she'd once loved. I think she knew this and loathed that she felt this way. It doesn't feel good to hate one you love. 

I think Eowyn was dragged down by self at this point. Some of it may have been self-doubt, but more self-pity. She was looking for self-fulfilment, etc. She started to think more and more of her self, was temporaily shocked out of it for the love of Aragorn, you can see this in some of the joy of just looking at him though that could also be doting, but when rejected it again turned to self-pity. She decided to be self-destructive, broke out, battled something great, and was struggling between self-absorbsion and apathy when Faramir shocked her out of it. In his love for her she did realize something akin to self-value, but I think it was more that she realized that thinking of herself was not as good as loving another person. Before this her love for Aragorn was selfish. After this it wasn't. Neither was her love for Faramir.



> even if she had met Faramir later, could she have given herself to him, when she was still trapped



I don't underestimate Faramir's wooing abilities. I think he could've done it.



> And I understand and accept that, which is why I refuse to believe that Eowyn and Faramir's love could be anything less than 100% True Love.



yes, it's 100%. But love isn't one of those things that you only have a 100% of. She could be a hundred percent for Faramir and still have something left over for Aragorn.


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## Rhiannon (Oct 17, 2003)

> I don't see this. I think it may have something to do with why she chose to love Aragorn. He did offer a better life than what she had. However, I think she would've been content if he'd given her something to hope for, a purpose if you will. "I can wait for him to come back" type of thing.


She would have developed a martyr complex, you mean, which might have sustained her but wouldn't have been healthy (okay, so maybe the kamikaze thing wasn't so healthy either, but it was still better). Legolas says of Aragorn that "All come to love him in their own way." (good quality in a king, neh?) But the point is he _didn't_ leave her any hope- he rambles about duty and leaves. Gee, that was encouraging. Well, so much for that. Once the door slammed she went and broke a window- she'd already abandoned Aragorn as a possible way of 'escape', which is at least a part of, if not all of, what made her love if in the first place.



> I truly believe, had Aragorn not been involved already and had he somehow loved her, Eowyn and Aragorn could've been a happy couple. . .though I doubt she would've liked portions of their lives together due to the responsiblities of queenship. She would've had to compromise somethings, but it could've been done.


Yes, they could've managed. They'd have gotten along, they'd have even been happy. But it wouldn't have been the same delirious meant-for-each-other perfect kind of True Love I think her love with Faramir was: It would have been two well-suited people being fond of each other and sharing responsibilities and living space. Gee, that's....so romantic. Though Tolkien _did_ originally have them end up together- you notice he changed it. I like it better this way.



> Yes, but not less true. Obviously romantic love for two men at once would be inconvenient to say the least.


Not less true. Agreed. That's all ironed out then.



> Why not? I think she could've. She didn't want to. It may have made her more bitter, but she could've, and if it hadn't been for desperation I think she might've. Aragorn gave Eowyn the thrust she needed to put aside duty in favor of desperation.
> 
> I think that if she'd have been thinking clearly the duty would've appealed to her.


Yes, she _could've_. I could've worn socks today. Maybe I would have been happier if I'd worn socks today. But I didn't. People _can_ to lots of things; Eowyn was _capable_ of staying. She was _capable_ of resigning herself to duty. But I think it was _better for *her*_ to take action. I also think that the duty would never really have appealed to her. She didn't want to be responsible for other people- she wanted a chance to take responsiblity for herself.



> I don't think he was a last chance. I think he was a man who she loved. I think love for a great man she saw as a great chance, but I think the chance without the love (a marriage of convenience where she didn't love him or just luring him into taking her with him due to her fairness) wouldn't have had the appeal or the effect.


...You kind of lost me there. I can't tell whether you think she wouldn't have seen him as a chance without the love, or that she didn't see him as a chance or what...She saw him as a way 'out'. This was, I think, not based entirely on love, although it was given steam by it. Had she not loved him, she might _still_ have asked to go with him, but love wouldn't have come in to it. She wouldn't have offered a marriage of convenience or try to seduce him or anything, she _wasn't_ that kind of person.



> On the contrary, I see a lot of pride in Eowyn. I see that she felt that her lot wasn't worthy of her. I can see that the effect Wormtongue had on her was almost making her despise the uncle she'd once loved. I think she knew this and loathed that she felt this way. It doesn't feel good to hate one you love.


I don't think she ever hated Theoden. She despaired over him, hated Wormtongue, but never hated him. And yes, Eowyn has a great deal of pride. But it is possible to be proud and still have feeling of worthlessness. 



> I think Eowyn was dragged down by self at this point. Some of it may have been self-doubt, but more self-pity. She was looking for self-fulfilment, etc. She started to think more and more of her self, was temporaily shocked out of it for the love of Aragorn, you can see this in some of the joy of just looking at him though that could also be doting, but when rejected it again turned to self-pity. She decided to be self-destructive, broke out, battled something great, and was struggling between self-absorbsion and apathy when Faramir shocked her out of it. In his love for her she did realize something akin to self-value, but I think it was more that she realized that thinking of herself was not as good as loving another person. Before this her love for Aragorn was selfish. After this it wasn't. Neither was her love for Faramir.


Her love for Aragorn was selfish before then, yes. Eowyn's self-doubt and self-pity were all wrapped up in each other. She had both. She was caught between the worthlessness that her situation and Wormtongue were giving her, and her pride as a member of the royal house and a person capable of great things. 'If you're capable of great things, why aren't you doing them?' etc. Yes, much of Eowyn's struggles were directed inward, though they were caused by outward pressures. When there is so much _stuff_ bearing down on you that you can't handle it anymore, you retreat. The 'freezing of the lily'. I spent more time in fantasy worlds as an adolescent than in the real world because I was unwilling- maybe partly unable, but mostly unwilling- to deal with people. It's a protection but it's also paralysing. 



> I don't underestimate Faramir's wooing abilities. I think he could've done it.


I don't either- just a moment, have to fix my knees, they just went out- but Eowyn would definitely have spent more time rejecting/avoiding/running away from him than she did.



> yes, it's 100%. But love isn't one of those things that you only have a 100% of. She could be a hundred percent for Faramir and still have something left over for Aragorn.


And I agree with that- what makes me insane is when people say that she had 100% for Aragorn with something left over for Faramir. My Faramir deserves the whole shebang, thank you.


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## Thuringwethil (Oct 17, 2003)

> _posted by Rhiannon_
> Actually I didn't say that, that was one of my militant Eowyn fan minions.



*appears in a puff of smoke and salutes Rhiannon*

Minion number one present and prepared for battle! 

Ok, gotta remember this isn't the Admiration Thread..

Right or Wrong? That, of course, depends from the point of view. She disobeyed the authority, and thus from the authoritarian view she wronged. But what if authority itself was wrong? The same goes for customs and tradition and whatnot. There's no even remotely objective truth there.

Let's take the humanity view instead, that is did she wrong against people. In that case, she didn't wrong against Thedoen although she broke his order, because she went forth trying to protect him, or wanting to die with him. Sympathetic enough, I think.

Did she wrong against the people left behind? Very hypothetic, since first there was no attack in sight, then the surprise attack was stopped by ents. But then again, what would she been capable to do if present and attacked? My thesis: not a thing. I don't know what some people here know about severe depression, angst and other mental malfunctions, but it seems to me that not much. I happen to know, and descriptions about Eowyn fit the picture. Her social status, the sickness of Theoden, Wormtongue's whisperings, war, etc etc had driven her to the edge. She was finished mentally, close to death. Aragorn's arrival gave her the push to do something about it, and she did. Desperate attempt that almost killed her, but ended up well.

So, last question, did she wrong against herself? No.

And closing this all, I'd say she did risk things and crossed lines, but not enough to say she was wrong to ride east. When it comes to it, she did the right thing. And to counter my arguments, feel free to point out that Eowyn was not depressed etc.


Then, about relationships between Faramir and Eowyn and Aragorn.. I'm not an expert in this, because I can't see men the way most other girls do. But when I read about Eowyn's reactions, it seems to me that her feelings towards Faramir are more the thing called "true love", whereas Aragorn is more "big brother" or similar object of idolization. There is some erotic feel, too, but that does not equal love either. Aragorn is great guy, good-looking and nice, surely something worth a thought if one is bent that way. But true love, and especially that pictured in Tolkien's works, needs to be the union of two equal souls, and this isn't the case here. Eowyn, never being in love, of course didn't know what it is, and was confused by her feelings for him. That also has confused several readers. (Confused me too, when I was younger and equally unexperienced.)

But this love-thingie isn't my strong point, due to circumstances. I'll leave it to our mighty leader, lady Rhiannon. 

*salutes again and steps back*


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## Rhiannon (Oct 17, 2003)

> *appears in a puff of smoke and salutes Rhiannon*
> 
> Minion number one present and prepared for battle!


The calvary arrives!

Excellent post, Thuringwethil!


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## HLGStrider (Oct 17, 2003)

> She would have developed a martyr complex, you mean, which might have sustained her but wouldn't have been healthy



No, I didn't mean that. I mean that, even though it would've been second best to going with him, waiting for Aragorn would've given her hope which would've given her a purpose to live, and she may have been satisfied with that.



> But it wouldn't have been the same delirious meant-for-each-other perfect kind of True Love I think her love with Faramir was



My definition of love isn't like that. It's more like the second, actually, with a greater emphasis on Friendship than comfort. Love isn't comfortable, not always.



> She didn't want to be responsible for other people- she wanted a chance to take responsiblity for herself.



I think she needed to take responsiblity for other people. Rohan needed a ruler.



> I can't tell whether you think she wouldn't have seen him as a chance without the love, or that she didn't see him as a chance or what...



That she wouldn't have seen him as a chance for love and I doubt at least consciously she saw him as a chance at all.




> Had she not loved him, she might still have asked to go with him, but love wouldn't have come in to it.



Had she not loved him she would've asked to go with Theoden. Even she saw the Paths as futile.



> I don't think she ever hated Theoden. She despaired over him, hated Wormtongue, but never hated him



I think she at least was to the point of wishing he would die rather than live the way he was living and that would feel like hate, even if it wasn't.



> That, of course, depends from the point of view. She disobeyed the authority, and thus from the authoritarian view she wronged. But what if authority itself was wrong?



I don't think the authority was wrong. 




> In that case, she didn't wrong against Thedoen although she broke his order, because she went forth trying to protect him, or wanting to die with him.



I don't think Theoden was the goal here.


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## Rhiannon (Oct 18, 2003)

> No, I didn't mean that. I mean that, even though it would've been second best to going with him, waiting for Aragorn would've given her hope which would've given her a purpose to live, and she may have been satisfied with that.


I don't think she would have been satisfied with it...and while it may have given her enough hope to live on, it would be dependent upon someone else. If that would have been enough, she could have put her hope in her brother, or someone else. 



> I think she needed to take responsiblity for other people. Rohan needed a ruler.[/quoted]
> 'Needed' on her own behalf, or the people's?
> 
> 
> ...


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## Thuringwethil (Oct 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> 
> I think she needed to take responsiblity for other people. Rohan needed a ruler.



Ruler should be able to rule. Why not take some older commoner or sergeant? Maybe because the rule should stay "in the family", and all the boys wanted to have their glory, not stay in reserve? (I believe Elfhelm put some suitable person in charge when Eowyn joined his ranks.)



> I don't think the authority was wrong.



And I think placing a mentally exhausted person to lead is clueless, if not outright criminally stupid and dangerous. Translates as "wrong" too. There were other much more suitable people for the task, but hey, they were guys and guys can't be left behind, right? Guys must have their way, right? Why didn't Theoden stay himself? Because he wanted a glorious death. Helm's Deep and downcast of Saruman were not enough for him, he wanted more. If the selfishness is the question, then let's question it! *evil grin* 



> I don't think Theoden was the goal here.



Not the main goal, but in "Ride of Rohirrim" is described how Eowyn moves from her original place in Elfhelm's _éored_ closer to king and practically joins his guard. She loves him as a father, and is ready to disobey him in order to be with him when darkness falls.


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## HLGStrider (Oct 18, 2003)

> If that would have been enough, she could have put her hope in her brother, or someone else.



Do you have brothers? No, I don't think it would've worked. It's a different sort of love and a different sort of hope.



> She did ask to go with Theoden and had already been refused.



What was I going to say. . .blah, I hate it when I save quotes and forget what I wanted to say to them. . .umm. . .oh. . .



> ...you know, I think we've lost track of what we're arguing about...



We're close enough.



> Why not take some older commoner or sergeant? Maybe because the rule should stay "in the family", and all the boys wanted to have their glory, not stay in reserve?



In the family is evident. Plus, despite her training, I don't think Eowyn was exactly considered a soldier. I think it would've been ridiculous to expect her to be considered as such, considering the culture. I also think that it was a good idea to appoint her. I think she could've done a good job. She was a member of the royal family who was not needed in battle as far as they knew.

It needed to be a member of the family, the people wanted that. It needed to be someone they respected and loved. This someone was evidently Eowyn.



> And I think placing a mentally exhausted person to lead is clueless, if not outright criminally stupid and dangerous.



I truly think they were clueless about that. They knew she was stressed but everyone was stressed. Eomer doesn't seem to realize that his sister was really depressed until Aragorn tells him so.

I think Theoden and Eomer attributed everything to Wormtongue and since he was gone, she'd be getting better soon.

I also don't think they'd see battle as a rememdy. I think Eowyn didn't see battle as a remedy. I don't think it was a remedy. 

Also, taking Eowyn along would have been stressful for both Eomer and Theoden. Eowyn was Eomer's little sister! I wouldnt' want to take my little sister into battle.




> Why didn't Theoden stay himself? Because he wanted a glorious death.



I see overwhelming signs that though Theoden thought such a death would've been a good thing he also had hope. He wanted to live and was sad to die though ready and accepting. Theoden was needed on the battle field because his presence speared the troups on. They needed to see their leader out of the grasp of the enemy and fighting for his people. It was inspiring. Him staying home would've been a deterent to the fight.




> She loves him as a father, and is ready to disobey him in order to be with him when darkness falls.



Then she wouldn't have asked to go with Aragorn. That would have taken her far, far, far from Theoden.


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## Rhiannon (Oct 19, 2003)

> Do you have brothers? No, I don't think it would've worked. It's a different sort of love and a different sort of hope.


Yes, and I still think it's possible. Remember Eowyn would be extremely close to her brother, and there was probably already a degree of hero worship there.



> I also don't think they'd see battle as a rememdy. I think Eowyn didn't see battle as a remedy. I don't think it was a remedy.


It was a start. The very act of _leaving_ was a start- it was the nasty oozy cleaning-out-an-open-wound before you douse it with hydrogen peroxide kind of start. 



> I wouldnt' want to take my little sister into battle.


I would...my little sister is tougher than me (this is depressing)


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## HLGStrider (Oct 19, 2003)

> Yes, and I still think it's possible.



You don't have my brother. 



> The very act of leaving was a start- it was the nasty oozy cleaning-out-an-open-wound before you douse it with hydrogen peroxide kind of start.



Nice image. I think it did give a sort of thrust. She came near death, but she came out of it even more hopeless, just not hopeful for death anymore. Even death had failed her at this point.



> I would...my little sister is tougher than me (this is depressing)



Mine has sharp fingernails. ..but that's another story.


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## Rhiannon (Oct 19, 2003)

> Nice image.


Isn't it? I never thought I'd compare Faramir to hydrogen peroxide...



> I think it did give a sort of thrust. She came near death, but she came out of it even more hopeless, just not hopeful for death anymore. Even death had failed her at this point.


I think the point is that she was _trying_. She was at least reaching for _something_, even if it was the wrong thing. She wasn't falling in to a self-consuming numbness.


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## HLGStrider (Sep 10, 2008)

Dang, this was an amazingly long thread for the subject matter. I am bumping it.


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## host of eldar (Dec 14, 2010)

she was wrong I think but sometimes we must let the things go. it is our fate non could stop it. if I were eowyn I would go with the rohirrim


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## Alcuin (Dec 14, 2010)

Is it possible to convert this thread into a poll?


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## Erestor Arcamen (Feb 9, 2011)

from a character point of view, I'd believe everything happens for a reason. I know this is Gandalf talking about Gollum but in a way it makes sense for this, that Eowyn was meant to disobey:



> Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death and judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends. My heart tells me that Gollum has some part to play yet, for good or ill, before this is over. The pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of the Ring.


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## adpirtle (Feb 9, 2011)

She was fated to do so.

Glorfindel prophesied that the Witch King would not be killed by a man, and you know how Doom with a Capital D works in these books. As soon as someone lays down a prophecy someone else, however far down the road, is fated to fulfill it. 

As for whether it was right, well...she abandoned her duty and broke her word. I think for that she duly suffered. Again, whenever someone in these books breaks their word something bad happens to them, even when something good comes of their actions. 

But alls well that ends well, to paraphrase Eru Iluvatar.


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## Starflower (Mar 21, 2011)

I think Éowyn was right in her disobeyance.

I mean, not only was the decision justified in the end (Nazgul etc...) but she also had the _right_ to act as she did. Eru gave all Men free will, and in exercising that free will Éowyn made her own destiny. Sure she was angry and had pretty strong death-wish here:



> 'Lord.' she said, 'if you must go, then let me ride in your following. For I am weary of skulking in the hills, and wish to face peril and battle.'
> 'Your duty is with your people,' he answered.
> 'Too often have I heard of duty,' she cried. 'But am I not of the House of Eorl, a shieldmaiden and not a dry-nurse? I have waited on faltering feet long enough. Since they falter no longer, it seems, may I not now spend my life as I will?'
> .....
> ...



But next time we see her:


> There seemed to be some understanding between Dernhelm and Elfhelm, the Marshal who commanded the éored in which they were riding. He and all his men ignored Merry and pretended not to hear if he spoke. He might have been just another bag that Dernhelm was carrying. Dernhelm was no comfort: he never spoke to anyone.



Clearly Éowyn put quite a bit of forethought and planning into this, you don't set out on the Ride with just the clothes on your back - she would have had to procure the very least a horse, armour, weapons and other gear; convince a Marshal of Mark to take her on his éored in disguise knowing full well what would happen should she be discovered and stay hidden for the entire Ride.

She was no spoiled princess who wants to disobey a direct order on a whim, we know she was very nearly as proficient in horseriding and weaponry as Éomer, having only him and Theodred for company as a child - I would not imagine there being many dollhouses for her to play with in Edoras...

It is said that the end justifies the means, that is certainly the case here; more than that though, I feel that the simple act of _choosing to act_ made the choice right, had she quietly submitted to her fate and stayed at home it would not have been a choice at all, simply accepting a task given.


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## CirdanLinweilin (Oct 19, 2016)

I think the best part of Eowyn...

IS AFTER THE FACT.

"Oh battle, I hated that dreadful thing, I'm going to become a healer!"

Everyone in this discussion seems so focused on before and during the battle and not after. Afterwards she finds battle dreadful and finds a great interest in healing.

She wanted to go off and be a valiant champion of good, everyone has this aspiration... _before _the battle. 

During is a whole another story. She could ride and wield blades all she wants in Edoras, but had she ever tested herself against Orcs? The Witch King of Angmar, for goodness sakes? Once she made contact with the enemy, she must've been really second guessing her decision. 

War and Battle changes you, Eowyn wasn't the same person afterwards, battle didn't fulfill her, it wasn't all she thought it would be.

It was worse.

I hope we all remember that before we all go traipsing off against the enemy.


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## Ingolmin (Nov 19, 2016)

It would rather be not right according to ethics but she should have gone because if it would not have happened, Merry would not also have gone to Gondor and far difficult would have been the War as The Witch King would have remained alive.


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## Ingolmin (Nov 19, 2016)

Also I go with Starflower


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## PaigeSinclaire88 (Feb 8, 2017)

Arvedui said:


> *Was Éowyn right in joining the ride of the Rohirrim, and disobeying King Théodens ord*
> 
> Another topic from the Debate-Tournament:
> 
> ...





I think in her situation she was right. Even though she disobeyed direct orders from the king was of course not right. But she had always been a warrior at heart and not a prissy princess. Which is respectable. Plus, I feel given the battle being fought (*literally to save their world*) That it was a situation where she saw a need and filled a need. She, as a person-character is very honorable. Granted, I've always given her shit for trying to get with Aragorn, knowing he was taken. But her personal life aside, and if it werent for that at all I'd like her character as one of the best.


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