# Melian and the Istari.



## Edhel-dûr (Aug 21, 2002)

What do you think about the Istari incarnation?: 

*The same case as Melian? 
*They were incarnated in real bodies of men? 
*Their bodys were like the bodies of the Valar? 

Please remember this quote: 

"Melian alone of all those spirits assumed a bodily form, not only as a raiment but as a permanent habitation in form and powers like to the bodies of the Elves"(Peoples of Middle Earth) 

In this quote is said that only Melian was permanent incarnated. 

Can we asume that the Istari aren´t incarnated? (remember that the Istari are Maiar XD)

Greetings.


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## Mormegil (Aug 21, 2002)

I think that the "not only as a raiment but as a permanent habitation" part of your quote might provide the answer.
Maybe Melian was the only one to have a permanent body. We know that Gandalf's spirit was separated from his body after his fight with the Balrog. We also know that Saruman's spirit left his body when his body was killed. Sauron and Morgoth also assumed different bodies.

So what I think is that Melian was permanently in her bodily form, and could no longer change form or seperate her spirit from her body. As a Maia this would make her body immortal. 
I think this might be the case because she wanted to be with Thingol and bear a child, she would not be able to do this in her spirit form. So she had to become permanently embodied.


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## Edhel-dûr (Aug 21, 2002)

I´m agree with you, Mormegil.

Then, can we asume that to be permanent incarnated gives the faculty of having descendats?

Greetings.


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## Niniel (Aug 22, 2002)

I suppose so; I think that the bodies the Maiar can take are very 'vague', sort of half-spirits, so that they can not have children in them, but have to take a permanent human body to do so.


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## Confusticated (Aug 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Mormegil _
> *I think that the "not only as a raiment but as a permanent habitation" part of your quote might provide the answer.
> Maybe Melian was the only one to have a permanent body. *


Could Melian having a permanent body be the reason that Luthien is reffered to as an Elf and not not Half Elf?


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## Edhel-dûr (Aug 22, 2002)

She is an Elf, his father is an elf and his mother is incarnated in a body of an elf.

The half-elf is the union of an elf with a man.

Greetings.


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## Ceorl (Aug 24, 2002)

I am afraid I have to disagree, when JRRT referred to her being the only one I think he was thinking more of the first age and such times. i.e he also said that Luthien alone of the Eldar has died and left ME completely, yet at the end of the LOTR Arwen shares her fate.

Also I quote from the UT:



> For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies as of men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain;though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years.



So they also have permanent habitations which only death could break. Melian it must also be noted, forsook her Bodily form and fled back to Aman and wept by the fountains of Lorien.


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## Edhel-dûr (Aug 24, 2002)

Melian forsook his bodily form?, in the Spanish version it is said that she left Middle Earth but she didn´t lose his bodily form.

Greetings.


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## Ceorl (Aug 24, 2002)

Hmm just looked it up and it doesn't actually mention her forsaking her form, I guess I must have assumed that as she came to Valinor and if she hadn't then she would have had to have taken a boat and it would have mentioned that.


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## Grond (Sep 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Edhel-dûr _
> *She is an Elf, his father is an elf and his mother is incarnated in a body of an elf.
> 
> The half-elf is the union of an elf with a man.
> ...


I can assure you that it doesn't state in the Silmarillion that Melian took the body of an Elf in her incarnation. She did take a permanent form as I would assume any Ainu could do if they desired to cleave to one of Worldly origin.


> _from The Silmarillion, Of Thingol and Melian_
> *...and Melian returned not thither while their realm together lasted; but of her there came among both Elves and Men a strain of the Ainur who were with Ilúvatar before Eä.*


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## Edhel-dûr (Sep 1, 2002)

Yes, i know what Silmarillion say, but:

"Melian alone of all those spirits assumed a bodily form, not only as a raiment but as a permanent habitation in form and powers like to the bodies of the Elves"(Peoples of Middle Earth)"

"Here Pengolodh adds a long note on the use of hröar by the Valar. In brief he says that though in origin a "self-arraying", it may tend to approach the state of "incarnation", especially with the lesser members of that order (the Maiar). "It is said that the longer and the more the same hröa is used, the greater is the bond of habit, and the less do the 'self-arrayed' desire to leave it. As raiment may soon cease to be adornment, and becomes (as is said in the tongues of both Elves and Men) a 'habit', a customary garb. Or if among Elves and Men it be worn to mitigate heat or cold, it soon makes the clad body less able to endure these things when naked". Pengolodh also cites the opinion that if a "spirit" (that is, one of those not embodied by creation) uses a hröa for the furtherance of its personal purposes, or (still more) for the enjoyment of bodily faculties, it finds it increasingly difficult to operate without the hröa. The things that are most binding are those that in the Incarnate have to do with the life of the hröa itself, its sustenance and its propagation. Thus eating and drinking are binding, but not the delight in beauty of sound or form. Most binding is begetting or conceiving.
"We do not know the axani (laws, rules, as primarily proceeding from Eru) that were laid down upon the Valar with particular reference to their state, but it seems clear that there was no axan against these things. Nonetheless it appears to be an axan, or maybe necessary consequence, that if they are done, then the spirit must dwell in the body that it used, and be under the same necessities as the Incarnate. The only case that is known in the histories of the Eldar is that of Melian who became the spouse of King Elu-thingol. This certainly was not evil or against the will of Eru, and though it led to sorrow, both Elves and Men were enriched."

So Melian is the exception and the only case.

Greetings.


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## Grond (Sep 1, 2002)

Great post Edhel-dûr. I fully agree with your logic... however, I still disagree with the assertion that she took the "body of an Elf." She took a wordly body as any other Ainur COULD do... they just chose not to do it. Melian chose to permanently inhabit her hroa. It states no where that her hroa was of Elvish origin. 

By the way, are you in a guild??? Would you like to join the Guild of Tolkienolgoists? The link to the membership thread is in my signature. I hope you'll consider.


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## Edhel-dûr (Sep 1, 2002)

You must know that i´m spanish and my level of english isn´t as yours XD

I believe that as the Istari were incarnated in bodies of Men, Melian, was incarnated in an elf body. The diference is that the incarnation of Melian is permanent and the incarnation of the Istari isn´t permanent.

I belong to one Guild, his name is "Guild of Ost-in-Edhil"

Is there any problem if i belong to your Guild? XDDD

How works the Guild? i still haven´t understand his function XDDD

Greetings.


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## Grond (Sep 1, 2002)

The Istari were not housed in the bodies of Man. They were sent by the Valar in the visage of Men but aged only slowly.


> _From Appendix B, The Tale of the Years, The Third Age_
> ...They came therefore in the shape of Men, *though they were never young and aged only slowly*, and they had many powers of mind and hand...


They were housed in an earthly form that could be damaged and killed, just like an Elf, though they appeared to look as Men. I think you and I are arguing on semantics (language usage) and that we are probably in agreement. I am unsure what form Melian chose to appear as it does not say in the Silmarillion. It simply speaks of her being in an Earthly form visible by Thingol when he stumbles upon her. Whatever her form, I am sure it was quite beautiful. 

If you belong to Ost-in-Edhil it would be unwise for you to join the Tolkienologists. Both of these guilds, the Ost-en-Edhil and the Tolkienologists, are debating guilds and you would be faced with split loyalties if you joined both.  Congratulations on your new affiliation with the OiE.


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## Ancalagon (Sep 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Grond _
> *I can assure you that it doesn't state in the Silmarillion that Melian took the body of an Elf in her incarnation. She did take a permanent form as I would assume any Ainu could do if they desired to cleave to one of Worldly origin. *



I am sorry Grond, my mighty hammer and friend, but you are mistaken;



> For Melian was of the divine race of the Valar, and she was a Maia of great power and wisdom; but for love of Elwë Singollo she took upon herself the form of the Elder Children of Ilúvatar, and in that union she became bound by the chain and trammels of the flesh of Arda. In that form she bore to him Lúthien Tinúviel; and in that form she gained a power over the substance of Arda,


 _The Silmarillion_ 

If you need any more references please don't hesitate to ask

Edhel-dûr, your line is accurate in my opinion and I agree with your points entirely. Also, because you are a venerated member of the Guild of Ost-in-Edhil, you get extra points Please feel free to explore the Guild 9see link in my sig) and read over the 'sticky' threads. Any questions you have I would be more than happy to answer. Alternatively, you can just post in 'open discussions' in the Guild. Great to have you onboard.


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## Lhunithiliel (Sep 1, 2002)

If I may join this discussion, I'll start with a quote, often provided here.



> "Melian alone of all those spirits assumed a bodily form, not only as a raiment but as a permanent habitation in form and powers *like * to the bodies of the Elves"(Peoples of Middle Earth)"



Do you see? It's "LIKE" the bodies of the Elves. But noone can be pretty sure whether her body had the same characteristics as those of the Elves. Because it is not said directly ["as" the bodies of the Elves] but ["like"...] . We know that the bodies of the Elves age and that this people can have offsprings.. But these bodies can just well be destroyed! And the Elves' spirit flew to the realms of Mandos, and only seldom some of them were allowed to reincarnate. 
With Melian, the case was not, I suppose, such, as she was a creature superior to the Elves. Meaning that she could have chosen a form for her body that she had found suitable to her "standards" of beauty, so to say. Would she chose a body that after all could be destroyed and not fit to be "filled" by a spirit again? 

Perhaps I am wrong and if I am, I'm open to criticism.

As for the Istari, I think their case is the same, only it was NOT their decision in what form they should appear among men, but that of the Valar (as I think Manwe, withthe "blessing" of Eru, was the one to send the Istari to ME with their tasks).
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Completely off the record: By using those strange letters when writing names and things (as for ex. "hröa ") you should be aware of the fact that these letters that you are using and that seem so "strange" to you, or maybe so "elvish", are in fact letters from the Cyrillic Alphabet and for readers using this alphabet it is ABSOLUTELY confusing! I, for example, could not understand the quoted word, as I did not know what to read!


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## Ancalagon (Sep 1, 2002)

Lhunithiliel, I might refer you to the same quote I gave to Grond in my previous post. I would hope this resolves the issues expressed surrounding Melians form.


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## Edhel-dûr (Sep 1, 2002)

"For Melian was of the divine race of the Valar, and she was a Maia of great power and wisdom; but for love of Elwë Singollo she took upon herself the form of the Elder Children of Ilúvatar, and in that union she became bound by the chain and trammels of the flesh of Arda. In that form she bore to him Lúthien Tinúviel; and in that form she gained a power over the substance of Arda,"

Can you tell me from what chapter is this quote? 

Thanks XDD

Greatings.


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## Ancalagon (Sep 1, 2002)

Chapter 22
Of the Ruin of Doriath

Towards the end of the chapter.


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## Grond (Sep 1, 2002)

Oops... these things happen every once in a great while. I am wrong. *Grond lowers his head with a shocked expression on his face*


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## Tar-Elenion (Sep 1, 2002)

Not so fast Grond.
Ancalagon, can you find the passage in HoME that corresponds to the passage contained in 'Ruin of Doriath' in the published Silmarillion (CT with Guy Kay extensively wrote the Silmarillion chapter).


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## Grond (Sep 1, 2002)

I can't find where the HoMe summarizes that chapter. The War of the Jewels has a small paragraph on the Ruin of Doriath but it does not address Melian's bodily form. I did find this in


> from HoMe X, Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed[/i]
> ...In any case is it likely or possible that even the least of the Maiar would become Orcs? Yes: both outside Arda and in it, before the fall of Utumno. Melkor had corrupted many spirits -- some great, as Sauron, or less so, as Balrogs. The least could have been primitive (and much more powerful and perilous) Orcs; but by practising when embodied procreation they would (cf. Melian)[become] more and more earthbound, unable to return to the spirit-state (even demon-form), until released by death (killing), and they would dwindle in force. When released they would, of course, like Sauron, be 'damned': i.e. reduced to impotence, infinitely recessive: still hating but unable more and more to make it effective physically (or wound not a very dwindled dead Orc-state be a poltergeist?)


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