# On the Impossibility of Orcs



## Tar-Surion (Sep 23, 2008)

While Orc-like people may be able to exist as a sub-set of Humanity its seems difficult to imagine how Orcs could exist in any world.

These quarrelsome, vicious and extraordinarily cruel creatures seem destined to fail without some Dark Lord or other to control and sustain them.

All the previous comments I made about Dwarves and agriculture are doubled here. Living in the mountains Orcs had no access to agricultural land and no one in their right mind would trade with them: besides they had nothing to offer in return. 

In any case One cannot imagine Orcs patiently nurturing crops, which means they could produce no food beyond what they could catch.

Even given their cannibalism as predators they are doomed to fail. Predators in a natural environment go after weak members of vegetarian species in order to minimize the chance of injury. 

It is difficult to see how Orcs could possibly kill sufficient numbers of heavily-armed Dwarves, Elves and Men, who utterly hate them and who would fight them to the death, to sustain themselves in lieu of other sources of food, without suffering unsustainable loss. 

At best they could lead a bandit existence on the fringes of the agricultural world, but given their unrelieved vileness it is hard to see how they could escape extermination at the hands of their more numerous enemies.

There remains the matter of Orcish reproduction. Not only are there no female Orcs in any of Tolkien's works, their existence is not even alluded too. This has lead at least one author to hypothesize that Orc were sexless creatures spawned in the manner of ants and bees by some unimaginable Queen Orc. 

In any case it is difficult to imagine how such cruel, contemptuous creatures would be able to resist the urge to torture their own offspring to death,  which is obviously going to doom them fairly quickly, especially given their military incompetence and tendency to suffer heavy casualties.

In short Orcs, direct expressions of the malice of Morgoth, lack the genetic and behavioral software necessary for survival. No wonder you don't see them about anymore.


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## chrysophalax (Sep 23, 2008)

Hm. First of all, just because Tolkien never wrote about female orcs doesn´t mean they didn´t exist. Tolkien´s track record on including the "fairer" sex is minimal, at best.

Secondly, it seems when supported by an overlord, such or Morgoth or Sauron, they seem to flourish. I´m sure that when it came to submitting to discipline or death, they usually chose the former.

The orcs of Moria and the Misty Mountians are a bit more problematic, in that it´s not as though either location were packed with tasty snacks in the form of ignorant travellers. Maurauding had to have become the most profitable way of life for them.

Lastly, let us never forget, these are creatures of fantasy. Very often I try to imagine Tolkien and what he would think if he saw his works being examined so microscopically. All he was trying to do was create a new mythos and he succeeded brillilantly!


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## YayGollum (Sep 23, 2008)

Orcs make all kinds of sense, to myself. I can imagine them patiently nurturing crops, though. Does that prove that they did?  Besides the solutions already given about where mostly cave-dwelling types obtained food, I'll agree with the chrysophalax person's comments on the females and the marauding. For the Orcs in the Misty Mountains, I immediately think of Woodmen and Beorning types. Being preyed on by Orcs could have fed the Beorning types up enough to ask for some magical assistance from the reclusive Radagast, and Orcs, while ofttimes seen as unintelligent, could have allowed the nearby Woodmen to survive, that they might continue to produce tasty meats and veggies for them. 

Also, were you unaware that Mel messed with them in such a way that caused them to be very resilient? Yep. That was partly to make them good soldiers, but also to allow loss of life as the females gave birth to customarily massive litters. *sage nod* 

Towards the bit about torturing themselves, yes, they were magically injected with hatred and cruelty and such, but that does not mean that they were also deprived of common sense. They were elves first (at least in the version I prefer reading, while laughing at nasssty elveses), and I don't see why they couldn't have all kinds of elfish type habits. Clever bomb-making Orcs were mentioned, so I've never seen them as a necessarily as well as predominantly unintelligent race. We mostly only get to see average Joe soldier type Orcs, anyway. I picture lots of Telerish type Orcs with lots of Orcish versions of Silmarillion type stories to tell. Why not?


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## chrysophalax (Sep 23, 2008)

That last sentence of yours, Yay...sounds like the beginnings of a great RPG. Hmmmm...*slinks off to plot*


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## Elthir (Sep 24, 2008)

A letter came up for sale at an auction on 11 and 12 July, 2002. It's dated 21 October 1963, and is addressed to a Mrs Munby in response to a number of questions posed by her son Stephen about _The Lord of the Rings_. The letter is long, but in one place it reads as follows: 



> 'There must have been orc-women. But in stories that seldom if ever see the Orcs except as soldiers of armies in the service of the evil lords we naturally would not learn much about their lives. Not much was known'. JRRT, 1963


 
Also, the legends reveal that Orcs multiplied as did the Children of God, thus there must have been females -- though at least JRRT himself can now be quoted as saying so, in any case.


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## Sidhe (Sep 24, 2008)

Breeding pits, perhaps. Just lots of females being bread with the toughest Orcs in a sort of eugenics style nightmare, endlessly breeding until they died, never seeing the light of day. The female offspring being used to replace them, the weakest and most worthless being cast into some deep pit. I think if you wanted to consider it, you'd have to delve into a dark place. 

Realistically though Tolkien probably never got round to explaining the orc problem exactly. And so logic probably went out of the window. Not that you couldn't just make something horrible up.


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## Prince of Cats (Sep 25, 2008)

Well it wouldn't *have* to be horrible

I mean, they are a perversion from elves - perhaps they serenade with hideous sounding love songs and pick man ears for their orc-ladies


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## HLGStrider (Sep 25, 2008)

Also we are assuming that all fighting orcs were male. As we have no idea what the differences between orc males and orc females are (though I do think somewhere it is said that they did breed in the "manner of the children of Illuvatar" which I would think means the whole Birds and the Bees bit), we have no idea how easily they could be told apart. It is possible that the female orcs dropped their babies on the battlefield. Or they abandoned the "children" immediately after birth. I can't imagine Orcs being maternal, and I think Melkor would've bred them accordingly, to survive without care. Somewhat like some species of sharks, basically smaller versions of their parents, born live and ready to go, and if they don't leave they fall into danger of being consumed by said parents.

So some of those Orcs marching into battle could've been females. We don't really know. Sidhe's idea is also possible. It all depends on what sort of pups we assume Orcs have. Dependent or capable of basic survival soon after birth. 

As for food supplies, slaves are mentioned in Mordor, are they not? Humans serving by the inland sea? Also, I am assuming food stuffs would be part of the Easterling's tribute. That takes care of Sauron's personal minions (and Melkor's). 

That said, I don't think Orcs had the ability to survive in large numbers without the "evil overlord." You see a certain ant like slave mentality in them. They are ruled by fear rather than the desire for order, and after the fall of whatever villain rules them, they tend to scatter, easily routed. 

Orcs breeding in numbers is seen as a sign of evil days. I am guessing that in between Sauron's rises to power, they dwindled, feuded among themselves, and survived in manageable numbers. If they had the ability to reproduce and organize themselves they would've been a threat to every other race in middle earth constantly, and I don't see that they were. They only raided Hobbiton once, for instance. Was this simply because of the Rangers? I doubt it. I don't think the Rangers were a major factor in the safety of the Shire until the days of Bilbo/Aragorn. A small factor, but obviously we have the Bullroarer incident at one point, so orcs were there. 

When they massed during the days of the Hobbit Sauron was beginning to reemerge (as the Necromancer), and even then their numbers were nothing like the hordes from the war of the ring. They also seemed to have found some unification under the Great Goblin, who I have always seen as a bandit king, holding his minions together raiding the Beornings, travelers, and woodsmen. 

Perhaps the Balrog served a similar purpose in Moria, though obviously in Moria they were small enough in number to allow a temporary dwarven incursion. The Dwarves were there awhile before they realized that the orcs were a serious problem.

Where was I? I had a closing point . . . dang. . . 

Anyway, my point is simply that orcs breed in mass when there is an evil overlord. In between that they are a scattered race of scavengers and raiders, not really a force to be reckoned with.


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## Firawyn (Sep 26, 2008)

Hey Elgee, here's a radical and somewhat disturbing notion for you - maybe they bred more like *CATS!* You know, had multiple children in one breeding? *is only half serious about this notion*

I do agree, there had to be Orc Females. We don't know alot about their "home lives", just life as an Orc soldier. Perhaps Orcs were more like pets than anything, to Sauron and his lot. Bred (however they did that). There could literally be five adult orcs caring for, say fifty, little orcs at a time, leaving the parents availble to fight. 

We know that among dwarves, there is little distiction between male and females, so perhaps it was the same among orcs? Perhaps, like frogs, they could switch sexes at will, so there would never be worry about enough males or females, and each would always be equipped with the physical stature to fight. 

The thing about orcs is, very simply, that there is not enough information to conclude anything at all - it's all theories. All best guess. And above you can see I have made a few "best guesses". (I'm really leaning on the kitty cat idea! )


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## HLGStrider (Sep 27, 2008)

Cats aren't the only species that has litters, btw. The only reason I see against it is that litters tend to mean less developed young which would need more hands-on care. Whereas a single birth with a longer gestation generally would have a greater chance of surviving without a mother.

Though litters would make cannibalism that much easier.


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## Firawyn (Sep 27, 2008)

HLGStrider said:


> Cats aren't the only species that has litters, btw.


 
Hehe, I know that. I just said it to tease you...as you are the Queen of Cats.


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## Prince of Cats (Sep 27, 2008)

Firawyn said:


> Hehe, I know that. I just said it to tease you...as you are the Queen of Cats.



Does that make Elgee my Mommy?


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## HLGStrider (Sep 27, 2008)

If so it was definitely by adoption. . .


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## Illuin (Sep 27, 2008)

> by Prince of Cats
> _Well it wouldn't *have* to be horrible_
> 
> _I mean, they are a perversion from elves - perhaps they serenade with hideous sounding love songs and pick man ears for their orc-ladies_


 






Maybe the widow of the Great Goblin began breeding a massive Orc army for revenge. Or maybe they were like Dwarves; and you couldn’t distinguish male from female (i.e. Grishnakh was Shagrat’s ex-wife). Or maybe all of the Orcs we witness on the battlefield are females, and the males stay at home and raise the kids; and teach them the meaning of life; and let them know why they are here; and tell them of their origin; where they came from; and of their Holy Deliverer; _St. Orc _(known to the Orcs as simply: “_The Storc_”) .


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## Firawyn (Sep 27, 2008)

Prince of Cats said:


> Does that make Elgee my Mommy?


 
Prince, were you on TTF when the formed the "TTF Family?" If not, search the thread...it was interesting. I don't know if you've seen Erestor Arceman around ot not, but according to the "TTF Family", he's my husband. Lol. Good times, good times.

Sorry, that was off topic. I'm not a mod yet, I cant still break rules!  j/k


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## Bucky (Oct 9, 2008)

Can't type much - shoulder surgery......

Don't forget the Great Goblin liked fish from the lake where Gollum lived.

And, the nameless things & other creatures in mountains.

Might be more to eat in there than we think at first.

Will type more when able.....


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## Illuin (Oct 13, 2008)

> _From Bucky_
> 
> _Can't type much - shoulder surgery......_


 
Yikes! That’s why I haven’t seen you lately. I hope you are OK. I miss our conversations (arguments, debates, or whatever) concerning The Silmarillon and HoME (I live to bicker). What happened? Was it rotator cuff surgery? Are you ok? Fill me in.


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