# Is Melkor impotent, like Sauron was after the Ring was destroyed?



## BalrogRingDestroyer (Nov 7, 2022)

I mean, is he basically a spirit of malice stuck in the Void (BTW, did Sauron and Saruman go there too?) who can't do more than make angry faces at Middle Earth and those on it or even those in Valinor? Or can he still whisper and corrupt those who are not morally pure enough?


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## d4rk3lf (Nov 7, 2022)

I think Mekor is a specific case, and was carried in the Void (outside Middle Earth, and Valinor), because he is very dangerous, and perhaps, Valars didn't had authority to kill him, or reduce his strength, 
But even in the void (according to the Dagor Dagorath), he will eventually brake, at the end of the time. 

As for Sarumn, Sauron and Balrogs, I think they are forced to stay on Middle Earth as a powerless spirits, and must wait the end of days. 
Maybe even stuck to some location that they can not leave. 

If you think that's easy, imagine being stuck somewhere for, who knows, how many thousands of years, being able to observe just a single spot (some old tree, wall, or watch The Irishman movie for eternity  )


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## Ent (Nov 7, 2022)

Morgoth was thrust through the "Doors of Night" into the Void beyond Ea, where he dwells now "shapeless and powerless."

But has been well written in one place: "Yet his terrible example was to have lasting consequences, for not even the mightiest blow could destroy the evil now awake in Middle-earth." Tyler, J. E. A.. The Complete Tolkien Companion (p. 530). St. Martin's Publishing Group. Kindle Edition. 


Sauron too was 'cast into the Void forever', and somewhere it is written he "shared in the same fate as his master." (Still looking for that.)

We also read: "Then Sauron failed, and he was utterly vanquished and passed away like a shadow of malice;" Tolkien, J.R.R.. The Silmarillion (p. 307). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition. 

Yet here too: "For though Sauron had passed, the hatreds and evils that he bred had not died, and the King of the West had many enemies to subdue before the White Tree could grow in peace." Tolkien, J.R.R.. The Lord Of The Rings (p. 1071). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition. 


It is prophesied that Melkor will return at some point yet again. Though Sauron is not mentioned in the prophecy that I know of, it could well be that Melkor will not come alone... but this is speculation.

As the "effects" of the evil of Melkor remained and Sauron became the supreme evil One, so now the "effects" of Sauron remain, and there are always those who try to become the new supreme evil One. It will always be so until the end.


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## Elthir (Nov 7, 2022)

Tolkien once wrote [Morgoth's Ring, Notes on Motives in the Silmarillion]:



> "The Elves certainly held and taught that fëar or spirits may grow of their own life (independently of the body), even as they may be hurt and healed, be diminished and renewed. The dark spirit of Melkor's remainder might be expected, therefore, eventually and after long ages to increase again, even (as some held) to draw back into itself some of its formerly dissipated power. It would do this (even if Sauron could not) because of its relative greatness.





> "It did not repent, or turn finally away from its obsession, but retained still relics of wisdom, so that it could still seek its object indirectly, and not merely blindly. It would rest, seek to heal itself, distract itself by other thoughts and desires and devices — but all simply to recover enough strength to return to the attack on the Valar, and to its old obsession. As it grew again it would become, as it were, a dark shadow, brooding on the confines of Arda, and yearning towards it." JRR Tolkien



Also, since Sauron was mentioned, I should probably add Tolkien's marginal note here (note 11, text VII, _Myths Transformed_, Morgoth's Ring]:

"If they do not sink below a certain level. Since no fea can be annihilated, reduced to zero or not-existing, it is no[t] clear what is meant. Thus Sauron was said to have fallen below the point of ever recovering, though he had previously recovered. What is probably meant is that a "wicked" spirit becomes fixed in a certain desire or ambition, and if it cannot repent then this desire becomes virtually its whole being. But the desire may be wholly beyond the weakness it has fallen to, and it will then be unable to withdraw its attention from the unobtainable desire, even to attend to itself. It will then remain for ever in impotent desire or memory of desire." JRRT

🐾


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Nov 7, 2022)

I think that Melkor and Sauron were both sent to the Outer Void through the Moritarnon (Door of Night), and cannot return from there (unless one brings up the possibility of Dagor Dagorath, in which case Melkor would return.).


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## Erestor Arcamen (Nov 7, 2022)

Either way, Sauron went into the Void too. So I'd assume they both were impotent. Sauron more so probably. 


> Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel. In his beginning he was of the Maiar of Aulë, and he remained mighty in the lore of that people. In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself. *But in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void.*


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Nov 8, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> Sauron more so probably.


Would that be because Sauron put *all* of his power into the One Ring, whilst Morgoth diverged *most* of his power into his other creatures?


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## Erestor Arcamen (Nov 8, 2022)

Nienna Qalme-Tári said:


> Would that be because Sauron put *all* of his power into the One Ring, whilst Morgoth diverged *most* of his power into his other creatures?


Sauron put the "greater part." Morgoth was far stronger in the beginning so my belief is that he'd have more left over in the void even than Sauron did after the One went poof


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Nov 8, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> Sauron put the "greater part." Morgoth was far stronger in the beginning so my belief is that he'd have more left over in the void even than Sauron did after the One went poof


That makes sense...Melkor as the most powerful of the Valar was far stronger than Mairon.


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## Ent (Nov 8, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> Sauron went into the Void too.


Sir EA - I was looking for this passage yesterday and couldn't locate it. Where did you find it please?

Indeed Sauron put 'the greater part' of his power into the one and not all. 

And here's the question I have in the case of both Melkor and Sauron:
Just because they 'passed' did not automatically mean they went to the Void. So - how did they get into the Void?
Would that not take an action of the Valar once Ea had handled their business with the evil ones?
Or perhaps an action of Eru?


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## Erestor Arcamen (Nov 8, 2022)

The Ent said:


> Sir EA - I was looking for this passage yesterday and couldn't locate it. Where did you find it please?
> 
> Indeed Sauron put 'the greater part' of his power into the one and not all.
> 
> ...


It's from the Silmarillion, just before the line "HERE ENDS THE VALQUENTA"
I'm a digital copy if you search for the name Gorthaur, it's the only place that it appears.


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## Ent (Nov 8, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> Silmarillion,


Ah thank you. Yes I thought it was in SIL and was all over it yesterday but just couldn't come up with a search that revealed it.
Sigh... the limitations of memory. (At least... my memory.)


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