# Balrogs.....



## Kraas

You guys might have seen something like this before, but I just want to know where you stand.

What do you imagine Balrogs as looking like? 

I always thought of Balrogs a lot like John Howe's picture in the Lord of the Rings.com art gallery, except with more of a human face, and much more...well, fiery. And definately with wings.

Speaking of which.....I don't want to start a 'Wings vs. No Wings' debate, just tell me what you think they look like.


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## Rosie Cotton

I picture a very large (about 12-13ft.) man. Maybe not quite a man, but definately with human shaped body and features. There is no light about him, and he seems to be surrounded by a cloud of fire and darkness (technically if there is fire there's light, but I just ignore that little fact). He has a whip in his hand.... and..... that's my balrog.


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## Talierin

I always imagined that they had a hard outer crust to them, with fire on the inside that spewed out through the cracks in their outer crust. They would be human shaped, kind of, only a lot taller. As for wings, I think they did have them, perhaps, but that they couldn't fly with them. Instead, they were used more for cloaking themselves in shadow.

(Why do my Balrogs sound like they were lava-monsters with Klingon-type cloaking devices?)


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## Sanma

I think John Howe's Balrog is great, but it looks too much like a bull, I've always pictured them more like Tong-po turned into beast, more human like, but with claws and short but strong legs, with long sharped teeth (not like saber tooth) and no wings.


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## Tulkas

I see them about 15ft. tall, muscular, and darkish skin that looks like it has a lot of ash on it. They carry a whip that lashes out with fire when used.


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## Kraas

As for the wings bit...I think they had them, and used them, but they only flew when they had to. There's a part in the Silmarillion that states that Morgoth or Glaurung or someone sent tongues of flame "faster than the Balrogs" sweeping over Ard-Galen. And I think that wings would be the best way to move quickly over long distances (like the Balrogs coming to Morgoth's aid when Shelob attacked him). There are probably other ways of travel. Maybe Balrogs can fly without wings, but I've always saw them as having wings.


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## Talierin

http://greenbooks.theonering.net/guest/files/080101.html This article is pretty much my op on balrog wings. I've been going back and forth recently on wings, so if I sound like I'm changing my op all the time, I probably am.


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## Gothmog

Talierin, thanks for letting us know about that article. My view of the Balrog has from my first reading been without wings (as some might have guessed from other threads  )although I did not quite think of 14ft. more like 10 - 12ft tall, of man-like, heavily mussled and with great claws on hands and feet surrounded by a great shaddow that it could extend at will.(or anyone else who happened to be around  )


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## Strider

well, i kinda can picture things in my mind, balrogs were very similar to the modern day vampire, but with reddish skin, no hair, and a cracked chest that radiated heat inside. i also agree that it had wings, and probably used them to transport themselves to the darkest places for revival if killed, or to transport them to enemy rear lines. they were humanlike, yes, but tall, and i mean TALL, probably 16-20 feet, depending how old a balrog was. the younger, the less cracked and magic able. they carried a staff or sword of sorts, though probably did not often use them. also, their skulls, like i saud, were like that of a vampire, only not hairy in the least.


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## Greymantle

So when they are killed, they fly themselves away....?

Something's not quite right here.


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## Telchar

> _Originally posted by Strider _
> *they were humanlike, yes, but tall, and i mean TALL, probably 16-20 feet, depending how old a balrog was. the younger, the less cracked and magic able.*


 Balrogs where "renegade" maiar, and maiar is not affected by age so I would presume they where ageless.. And the ainur, whitch is the race the maiar belong to, came to arda about the same time..


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## Telchar

Ok..Hmm.. Where in the books (LoTR, Sil, HoME I-XII, UT, etc.) does it say anything about Balrog reproduction?


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## Greymantle

And where in the posting guidelines does it allow that sort of post?

If you see, this, Cir...please...


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## Strider

oy, do you hear of the elves reproducing either? or the orcs? there is nothing that i have seen before about reproduction, nor relationships, save the unusual, such as elf with human, or other combinations, that i have not seen yet.


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## Greymantle

We hear about Orcish reproduction.....


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## Gothmog

> _Originally posted by Strider _
> *oy, do you hear of the elves reproducing either? *



Yes you do. I suggest that you read the books, digest the information and then post. It is obvious that you have done little of the former and none of the latter.


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## Strider

okok, well, most of the time when i read the books, i've read them on weekends, and do my best to remember most of what they said. jeez, i do try to make for my accuracy, and i don't know what a problem you have with me, but at least i try, there are others who are complete idiots, and they mix up frodo gandalf with bilbo samwise! now that's stupid, but dude, i do read my books, i just don't have the blasted books right now!


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## Hama

I sort of had a vision of Balrogs, and was sort of disappointed by John Howe's representation of them. (Don't get me wrong, I LOVE John Howe's work for the most part) But I too agree that they look too much like bulls. So I read over the description of the Balrog in LoTR and realized my original view complemented the description well. 
I see Balrogs as being perhaps an 8 foot man (a head taller than Gandalf perhaps) and ver dark, so you could only barely make out any facial features. Its center - the torso - however, had a smouldering flame, which could grow brighter and it had a whip in one hand and a sword, and definitely no wings. I don't think they needed wings. I don't think they flew. I believe they were 'lighter' than other beings, and could trael great distances on foot faster, like Shadowfax perhaps. I don't believe the fear and power the Balrogs showed was due to their unnatural size, but like the Nazgul, something deeper. Remember, the Fellowship was scared by the Balrog without knowing what it was - just like they were scared of the Nazgul. Well, that's my Balrog.


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## Hama

Reproduction in ME is something which Tolkien leaves up to the imagination of the reader. I for one, can picture life in ME as quite sexual - well the lives of Men and Elves at least. Imagine the Elves sitting under the stars in Lothlorien, or even in the woods of the Shire. I really appreciate how Tolkien keeps the book clean of any over-descriptive risque text, but I there are a lot of implicit references. Have any of you read the Tale of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight or any other translations by Tolkien of the old English texts? We had to read some of them in my course on Medeival and Rennaissance Literature, and many of them were very sexual. Similarly in a tale such as that of Turin Turambar and Nienor Niniel, who were siblings who got married, Nienor commits suicide when she discovers this incest. This would not happen in a completely asexual world.


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## ReadWryt

Thank goodness for J.R.R.'s Catholic sensabilities sparing us the scary mental images of Bearded Dwarf men AND women and the intimate details of their reproduction!


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## Greymantle

Better than Orcs and Men. But I'm going to stop thinking about that now.


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## Cian

*How tall is your Ball (rog) ?*

Just for interest sake, the Balhog that fought Glorfindel (_Lost Tales_) was described as twice Glorfindels stature. _Cheating_ here, ie mixing the expected Elven stature based on other writings, I'd put this Noldo at about seven feet or slightly taller, considering his paragon-al fame. The math I leave to _math-e-marticians_ more skilléd than I! (Tolkien commented in a very late note that this duel may need revision in any case)

In the early draft of the Balrog encounter, the creature was originally described as no more than man-high interestingly, though we do see _"... man-shape maybe, yet greater"_ in the final opening description of course.

The same draft mentions no "vast", or any, "wings" or shadow incidently (and the creature is clearly seen!). Tolkien revised this of course, even writing a notation to himself to alter the description of the Balrog ...

And just for bringing in the 'wings' topic! here, rest assured I will indeed forfeit my next roll of the dice and go back two spaces!

PS: it did have a "mane" of some sort.


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## Telchar

> man-shape


 This might not mean that a Balrog looks like man, it may, but on the other hand it might mean that it, the Balrog, had two arms, two legs, a head, and walked like a man, but the of it's body could look like hmm.. a bull..


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## Cian

> ... it's body could look like hmm.. a bull..



But then it might be _Mundorauco_ rather, "Bull-demon"


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## Telchar

Hehe.. Maybe a bad suggestion, but the first thing that came into my mind was "horse", and I didn't think that would fitt so good..


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## Greymantle

Er...... _neigh_, verily it worketh not. Hyuk hyuk.


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## Talierin

Man-shaped could also just be a "medieval" way of saying it was bipedal...........


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## Telchar

> _Originally posted by Talierin _
> *bipedal*


Does that mean walk "upright" and on two legs?


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## Greymantle

Technically I think bipedal just means two-footed...but presumable it would also walk upright, it'd be kinda hard tp drag yourself around on two legs!


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## Strider

have you ever tried running on all four limbs? that's hard, no, not hard, impossible, because your rear legs are designed for upright movement. since ball (rogs) *LMAO* leapt a lot, i'd expect their legs as EXTREMELY long, maybe their torso length?


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## ReadWryt

I've just poured over all the entries in the Silmarillion and Fellowship of the Ring about Balrogs and I have found one incidence where a Balrog lept...and that was onto the bridge with Gandalf.


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## Telchar

IIRC there is one more incident mentioned in the story, during the fight between Glorfindel and the Balrog during/after the fall of Gondolin. I am not sure and I can't check it right now, since I don't have the Book of Lost Tales at work..


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## Strider

actualy, yes, the balrog leapt upon glorifindel, also, how about this phrase- "and when melkor screamed, the balrogs, his servants, ushed to him with winged speed" it could mean two things, one: the balrogs had wings and flew to melkor, two: the balrogs had long legs and ran to melkor. maybe the balrog is like that of our mdern devil, hooved feet, horned top, muscular, and backwards jointed legs. but i think that's where the similarity ends.


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## Gothmog

*Balrogs Again!!*

We have had many questions and opinions about what Balrogs looked like but we all agree that they are Maiar! So then, that being the case. Why is it that when they are defeated they disappear never to be seen again? After all Sauron was also a Maia and he kept returning!


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## Eomer Dinmention

yeah good question but maybe because Balrogs arent Mairs but thats my opinion yeah so you don't have to follow it


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## ReadWryt

From the Valaquenta of the Silmarillion, the chapter entitled "Of the enemies"...



> "...But he was not alone. For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadfull among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror."



I think that pretty much defines them as Maiar...


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## Uminya

I think the same thing that happened to Sauron and Saruman happens to Balrogs...they simply cease to be.


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## Gothmog

Ciryaher, what you say is true but Sauron returned after his body was destroyed and saruman suffered the judgment of the valar when his body died. I think that when the Maiar suffer defeat and the death of the body they created then they do lose some of their power, but why did the Balrogs not return at least once before ceasing to exist in ME? They were very powerful Maiar to start with or they would not have been such terrifying demons.


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## Telchar

I've thought about that before, and i've looked into it, but can't explane why there are differences between Sauron and the Balrog, except that Sauron wasnt a Balrog.. And he was probably more powerfull than the Balrogs since he was Morgoths liutanant..(IIRC)


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## Gothmog

True, but Gothmog was High Captain of Angband and so was probably not much weaker than Sauron.


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## Lantarion

Please excuse me, King Eormer, but I am in such a nit-picky mood today: it's written *Maia*, plural *Maiar*, not Mair. Sheesh. 
Heh, no offence, I'm just being a prick.


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## GaladrielQueen

I agree wif you strider. I really don't think that Balrogs had wings cuz they are fat and heavy like 500 cows together. HeheHeehe

G2g...

Gq


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## Strider

eh, balrogs were not fat, but they HAD to be heavy, true, gq, true indeed...


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## GaladrielQueen

hehehehehehe


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## Greymantle

Oh, God. This is making me ill.


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## Talierin

You're not the only one.......


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## Strider

psst, gq, this forum is for mature ppl, we can fool around off the computer, silly girl...

sometimes i wish i had a bottle of poison and was able to drink it, since most of my posts seem to be making people not able to understand me, when i want the opposite...


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## Thorondor

> _Originally posted by Strider _
> *psst, gq, this forum is for mature ppl, we can fool around off the computer, silly girl...
> 
> sometimes i wish i had a bottle of poison and was able to drink it, since most of my posts seem to be making people not able to understand me, when i want the opposite... *



Whoa. . .I hope that what is posted here wouldn't lead to that. . .


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## ReadWryt

What's that Strider, I couldn't understand you...try not to drink and type at the same time demmit!!


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## Gandalf White

*It could be the ring*

Maybe because Sauron's power was in the ring, he was able to survive, even after defeated, because his power lived on in the ring. Once the ring was destroyed, so was Sauron.


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## Telchar

You've probably right there.. But nothing is said about it though..


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## Grond

I am in total agreement with Gandalf the White. Sauron had invested much of his power in the One Ring and, as such, could not be taken off the plane of Middle Earth until the Ring was destroyed. No other Maia had attempted to create such a Ring of Power and imbue it with so much of themselves. 

It is ironic though that Tolkien himself made the following statement in the Foreward to The Fellowhip of the Ring while talking about allegory in his work, "The real war does not resemble the legendary war in its process or its conclusion. If it had inspired or directed the development of the legend, then certainly the Ring would have been seized and used against Sauron; he would not have been destroyed but occupied. Saruman, failing to get possesion of the Ring, would in the confusion and treacheries of the time have found in Mordor the missing links in his own researches into Ring-lore, and before long would have made a Great Ring of his own with which to challenge the self-styled Ruler of Middle-earth. In that conflict both sides would have held hobbits in hatred and contempt: they would not have survived even as slaves." 

He hints here that maybe Saruman(and if Saruman, why not Gandalf?) could, with the right information from archives in the Barad-dur, make his own Ruling Ring. Who woulda' thunk???


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## Gothmog

Gandalf the White, I thank you, you have come up with an answer that covers the problem fully. I feel that your suggestion could well be the difference between Sauron and other Maiar who did not return. I have said in other threads that Sauron could call upon the power that he put into the One Ring even though he did not know where it was.


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## The Gaffer

What do Balrogs look like?

Well, I am definitely in the winged camp.

The picture I have always had of them is something like Chernobog, the demon at the end of "Fantasia", with a flaming cat o' nine-tails, a sword, and about 10 or 12 feet tall.


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## Elendil

I see Balrogs as somehow intrinsically connected with fire. The Orcs in LOTR were saying "fire" (in Orcish) when the Balrog (mentally) struggled with Gandalf (as the others were fleeing in the dark after their first battle). There also seems an emphasis on their darkness and shadowy appearance. In fact they seemed to exude shadow. There are two references in the text to "wings", although they are not probably big physical bat wings, but enshrouding wings of darkness that are expanded when Gandalf fights the Balrog on the bridge.

Have you ever looked into a fire and seen dark areas there? They seem doubly dark. In the sun, "cooler" sunspot areas that are about 6000 C seem absolutely black to our eyes. The Balrogs are dark, hot, evil Maiar that have been totally corrupted and darkened by Morgoth. Their body is a shadow of undying evil.

In regard to Glorfindel, remember that the elves are not bound in their vision like humans or hobbits. They see things in both the physical and "spiritual". They are not blind to Frodo when he wears the ring for instance. So the Balrog might be shadow to a human, but quite visible to an elf.


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## Telchar

Among the Ainur there where differnt types of Spirits, some stronger than other, and some where spirits of fire.. Of these spirits of fire, only one is mentioned that resists the temptation presented by Melkor. This was Arien, and she later became the Sun Maiden.. The Balrogs where Maiar, but not any kind of Maiar, they where spirits of fire, that's probably why they are connected with fire..


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## danskmacabre

IMO....some Balrogs probably did have wings and some didn't...
I feel they probably were all roughly humaniod in shape and of course would all have some sort of appearance to do with Fire (Being fire spirits)....and looked generally scary.

I really don't believe they all would have wings or all not...


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## Greymantle

Hey, I don't think we've considered that before. That could be the answer to the unanswerable riddle! But who knows...


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## Telchar

We have, but don't ask me to find out where, because that's going to take a long time.. And it might have been deleted in the pruning..


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## telperion

then why would they beseated on winged dragons, the kind of the brood of glaurung? They had whips of fire but thats about all i can find about their description , apart from the fact that they were clad in iron armours and claws of steel.
And in the beginning there were supposedly hundreds of balrogs , thus ruling out the fact that they were Valar.....
But in later rewritings prof Tolkien said that there could only be a few of them ,,,,and i quote ; "at most seven"....
when you want to find out what the damn creatures looked like study the text of the fall of gondolin....that was the first time balrogs were slain ever by men or elf...


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## Tyaronumen

From my 1976 edition Ballantine Books edition of FotR (p. 429):

_The Balrog reached the bridge. Gandalf stood in the middle of the span, leaning on the staff in his left hand, but in his other hand Galmdring gelamed, cold and white. His enemy halted again, facing him, *and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings.* It raised the whip, and the thongs whined and cracked. Fire came from its nostrils. But Gandalf stood firm.
'You cannot pass,' he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. 'I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.'
The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, *and its wings were spread from wall to wall*; but still Gandalf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small, and altogether alone: grey and bent, like a wizened tree before the onset of a storm._

The first mention of wings is somewhat ambiguous: 'like two vast wings' does not necessarily mean it WAS two vast wings. However, the second mention of wings 'and its wings were spread from wall to wall' is quite clear as far as I am concerned. It does not not say the 'wing-like shadow' or what not. It says 'its wings were spread'.

This to me is rather conclusive enough to satisfy me as to whether or not the Balrog had wings.


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## Gothmog

Tyaronumen, the The second mention of 'Wings' is no more clear than the first as it follows the comment "And the Shadow about it reached out like two vast wings." Therefore the second mention does not need to have "Wing-like Shadow" it is already stated that the Shadow itself is "Reaching out like two vast wings".

If you picture the Balrog with wings that is your view, but the passage you quote can be read two ways both valid. I have come to think that this is exactly what JRRT. intended. I do not think that he wanted to give a clear picture of the Balrog as his initial description of the Balrog was:


> What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it.


The Fellowship of the Ring:_The Bridge of Khazad-dum_ : page 428


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## Tyaronumen

I respectfully disagree with you both! If Tolkien had been referring to it's shadow spreading out from wall to wall, I believe it would read "and its shadow was spread from wall to wall" as opposed to "and its wings were spread from wall to wall"...

That is my thought on the matter.

Respectfully,
Tyaronumen


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## Gothmog

Tyaronumen,

Have you checked out the link posted in the seventh post in this thread? I leads to an article about Balrogs and wings. If you have not seen it you may find it interesting as it gives many arguments both for and against wings.


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## Tuor

talierin: look at the Infernals in WC III. do you picture them as something like that?


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## Flame of Utumno

*My image of Balrogs*

'Balrog' is the Sindarin translation of the Quenya name 'Valaraukar', which should translate as 'evil or corrupted Valar'. This being the case, they must be as awesome to behold as one of the Valar, but absolutely terrifying and hideous at the same time. (Concerning wings, they definitely have wings as stated by Tolkien in The Lord of the Rings when describing the Balrog in the mines of Moria.)


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## Cian

*Re: My image of Balrogs*



> _Originally posted by Flame of Utumno _ 'Balrog' is the Sindarin translation of the Quenya name 'Valaraukar', which should translate as 'evil or corrupted Valar'. This being the case, they must be as awesome to behold as one of the Valar, but absolutely terrifying and hideous at the same time. (Concerning wings, they definitely have wings as stated by Tolkien in The Lord of the Rings when describing the Balrog in the mines of Moria.)



_Valarauco_ (singular) means "Power-demon", cf also Sindarin _Balrog_ "Demon of might".


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## Flame of Utumno

*Re: Re: My image of Balrogs*



> _Originally posted by Cian _
> *
> 
> Valarauco (singular) means "Power-demon", cf also Sindarin Balrog "Demon of might".
> 
> And I think Tolkien did not necessarilly  state Balrogs had "wings" anymore than he stated the Sea-men in Tal-Elmar had wings, or maybe the way he described "wings" of darkness in RotK. *



I believe that Tolkien did not intend Sindarin and Quenya to be completely independent as your statement suggests, because 'Power-Demon' is very different to 'Demon of Might'. I believe that the two words have an identical meaning and that since the Quenya is the older language and since most of Sindarin is an derived from Quenya, then the two must have the same meaning. 'Vala' in Quanya = 'Bal' in Sindarin, and 'Rauco' in Quenya = 'Rog' in Sindarin. 
Concerning wings, at the end of the day, each Balrog was a corrupted Vala, therefore as each Vala was an individual being, some may have had wings whilst others may have taken on another form. It just happens that the one in the Moria mine had wings. There is no literary or vagueness about its usage in this particular context. (Personally I favour the view that they had wings as this adds to their greatness and is in line with the notion that they were Vala turned evil). Furthermore, who is to say that Balrogs could not shift their forms since Sauron is technically a Balrog (corrupted Vala) who definitely changed forms during the Silmarillion.


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## Cian

*Re: Re: Re: My image of Balrogs*



> _Originally posted by Flame of Utumno _I believe that Tolkien did not intend Sindarin and Quenya to be completely independent as your statement suggests, because 'Power-Demon' is very different to 'Demon of Might'. I believe that the two words have an identical meaning and that since the Quenya is the older language and since most of Sindarin is an derived from Quenya, then the two must have the same meaning. 'Vala' in Quanya = 'Bal' in Sindarin, and 'Rauco' in Quenya = 'Rog' in Sindarin.



I have not suggested that _vala_ is not a close cognate of _bala,_ and moreover the word "might" is merely a synonym of "power". As such I don't know why you state "completely independent" here, but anyway, also re: the derivation characterization of Sindarin ~ Sindarin is the most prominent descendant of Common Telerin, itself a branch of Common Eldarin ~ C.E. being the ancestor of Quenya, Telerin, Sindarin, Nandorin ... 



> Concerning wings, at the end of the day, each Balrog was a corrupted Vala, therefore as each Vala was an individual being, some may have had wings whilst others may have taken on another form. It just happens that the one in the Moria mine had wings. There is no literary or vagueness about its usage in this particular context ...



Balrogs are _Maiar_ technically.


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## Flame of Utumno

Thanks for the info.
However, Maia or Vala, they were still present in the Ainulindalie, and they are of the same kind, except that the Vala are just a greater type of Maia, not two distinct types of beings.
I must admit that I take a more fundamentalist view of Tolkien's writings and so I still believe that when he stated wings, he meant wings, there was no use of a simile or 'like wings'. Perhaps in other scenes he used 'wing imagery' but in this particular scene he definitely states wings in a physically descriptive manner. (Personally, this description of the Balrog is my favourite scene in all of the Lord of the Rings).
I would also like to ask the question why so many of you dislike the notion of Balrogs having wings? Being corrupted maia, surely some of them were capable of choosing the form they took and some most probably chose to have wings... I think it understimates their greatness if they were not capable of having wings and so I believe balrogs most probably had wings if they so desired (as the one in Moria had). Looking forward to your reply..


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## Cian

> _Originally posted by Flame of Utumno: _ However, Maia or Vala, they were still present in the Ainulindalie, and they are of the same kind, except that the Vala are just a greater type of Maia, not two distinct types of beings.



One reason I pointed out the distinction is because the word _vala_ in _Valarauco_ takes on its more basic meaning of "power". The technical reference of Balrogs as _Maiar,_ (or _Umaiar_ in places [UUmaiar]) is not meant as an implication of a completely different "order" 



> I would also like to ask the question why so many of you dislike the notion of Balrogs having wings? Being corrupted maia, surely some of them were capable of choosing the form they took and some most probably chose to have wings... I think it understimates their greatness if they were not capable of having wings and so I believe balrogs most probably had wings if they so desired (as the one in Moria had). Looking forward to your reply..



For myself, I do not particularly dislike a winged balrog, but think a cloak of "unlight" about the Balrog more creative. Cheers.


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## Gothmog

> _Originally posted by Flame of Utumno _
> *I would also like to ask the question why so many of you dislike the notion of Balrogs having wings? Being corrupted maia, surely some of them were capable of choosing the form they took and some most probably chose to have wings... I think it understimates their greatness if they were not capable of having wings and so I believe balrogs most probably had wings if they so desired (as the one in Moria had). Looking forward to your reply.. *



For myself the reason that I dislike the notion of Balrogs having wings is that apart form the fact that from the first time I read Lord of the Rings I have seen the image of the Balrog without wings because of the description given of the one in Moria. I feel that for a being of such power to give itself completely useless appendages to verge on the idiotic.


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## Grond

Gad... Cian and Gothmog, I bow to your wonderful analysis of this interesting subject. Like both of you, I have always invisioned Balrogs as creatures of darkness and shadow whose shadow sometimes seem to extend from them as wings. There is a link to another cite in this very thread that explains linearly, why it would have been hard for a balrog to have wings and have been the size and shape described in the story of Moria. In a nutshell, there just wasn't enough room in the cavern of the bridge of Khazad-dum for a 13-16 foot Balrog and another 20-30 feet of wings. If it were mere shadows, these shadows could have appeared as wings and encompassed the entire cavern.

Well that's my humble opinion, for what little it's worth.


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## Flame of Utumno

I think it is great to see so many Balrog fanatics!
Personally, I love the notion that Balrogs had wings because it just adds to their menacing image. They would look too ordinary without them.
Imagine seeing a demon in front of you with massive outstretched wings reaching from wall to wall in a massive cave. Then imagine the same demon without the wings and just standing there. Even if his shadow or evil aura looked liked wings, it would still not have the same effect on me. I'm sure that Legolas, rather than running off and screaming like a woman, would have simply mistaken him for an oversized Troll and swiftly shot an arrow through him.


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## Grond

Gothmog, Cian and Ancalagon. I have finally found someone who believes the Ring Can Think. (see thread "Can the Ring Thing?") Surely the Flame of Utumno in taking the writing of the author so literally concerning his use of verbage would be adament that the Ring thought.

(and holy moly.... my 600th post)


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## Cian

Arguably, Tolkien did not think that a Balrog needed any vast physical wings in inception ... most folks agree that JRRT's 'early' Balrogs were unwinged and could not fly. The rub, as it were, it with the 'later' Balrog ... one in which "terror" went before it in any case.
From The Later Quenta Silmarillion



> "These were the (_ëalar_) spirits who first adhered to him in the days of his splendour, and became most like him in his corruption: their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them; they had whips of flame. Balrogs they were named by the Noldor in later days ..."



Many years earlier, from the very early Fall of Gondolin (BoLT): Chris Tolkien gathers up some Balrog description for comparison [(...) representing page refs that I deleted] ~



> "The Balrogs are 'demons of power' (...); they are capable of pain and fear (); they are attired in iron armour (); and they have whips of flame (a character they never lost) and claws of steel ()."


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## Flame of Utumno

Thanks for the background on Balrog wings.

However, I still think they look much more menacing with the wings rather than without them....


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## Aredhel

I always imagined them to be griffin-like; sharp talons, the like, and of course, the 50 foot wingspan.


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## Grond

Two questions for you Aredhel. 

1) How did a creature with a 50 foot wingspan fit into the Chamber of Balin's tomb which was described as being fairly small?

2) As he was falling off the Bridge and had grabbed Gandalf with the thongs of his whip, why didn't the Balrog fly straight up and dash Gandalf's brains out on the ceiling?

Obviously, either that Balrog had very small unusable wings or none at all. I personally like the "wings of shadow" JRRT first described in the encounter with the Balrog of Moria. But that's just me.


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## Greymantle

Sorry... ocrrect me if I sound like an idiot... but did the Balrog ever actually _go_ into the chamber? Or did he just mentally wrestle with Gandalf from the outside?
Not that I think they have wings, mind...


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## Grond

I don't have the book in front of me but I remember clearly that Gandalf was outside the chamber and had put a shutting spell on the door leading out of it. Gandalf states something to the effect "I felt a presence enter the chamber that I have never felt before. The counter-spell was tremendous....." Something to that effect anyway. I'll get the direct quote when I get home. I got the impression that the Balrog was definately in the Chamber of Marzubal or whatever it was called.


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## Aredhel

You proved your point, Grond, Hammer of the Underworld. But I think perhaps I was a bit exxagerating?


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## The Gaffer

Grond,

Of course the Ring can think. Gandalf even says that it can feel its Master stirring and it is trying to return to him. It is the Ring itself that lays the Doom on Gollum, i.e. touch me again and you'll go into the fire (rather overreached there, din' it? ).


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## Curufinwe

*Balrog*

Well what do you think of Balrog's now that lotr the movie has come out? I say there too tall and look too much like god's how could Ecthelion or any other elf or human be able to kill such a creature in middle earth?


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## JeffF.

*No Wings*

All arguments about the 'shadow' versus the 'wings' aside, if the Balrog had wings it would not have fallen into the chasm when Gandalph destroyed the narrow bridge.


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## Grond

JeffF. 

A double post that isn't a double post. I don't think I've ever seen one done quite like that.

BTW.... Welcome to the forum.


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## Cian

I've done that too  I submit one, it don't seem to "go", I edit ... then, submit, then two! "closely related" posts. Or something. 

heheh. Oh well. Hullo JeffF.


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## Grond

Yea Cian, but his posts are different, yet, the same. Look at them both. They say the same thing but are subtly different. I've never done that.


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## Cian

Ok, I've done something like that ... LoL


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## Earnil

Well has anyone taken into consideration that maybe if Balrog's had wings then maybe they weren't for flying, perhaps the size of the Balrog itself resulted in it being unable to fly because of the size of the wings in comparison to the body.

I have always thought that Balrog's had wings just for the same reason that many flightless birds today have wings, purely for threatning stances.


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## pippin le qer

> _Originally posted by Strider _
> *have you ever tried running on all four limbs? that's hard, no, not hard, impossible, because your rear legs are designed for upright movement. since ball (rogs) *LMAO* leapt a lot, i'd expect their legs as EXTREMELY long, maybe their torso length? *


dear Strider,
please use an other penname: my legs are already longer than my torso and I'm a rather short person. the first book of anatomy for artists will show you that a torso is 3 heads from chin to crotch and legs are 4 1/2 from hip to heel.
Strider was known in the Pancing Pony for his long legs.


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## Smèagol_Gollum

A Balrog is a thing of living embers, with fire licking from its eyes and great wings that were hazed with smog. It could not fly when Gandalf shattered the Bridge because it fell backwards, and if you think about it, a bird cannot lie upside down and fly. Plus, Gandalf fell with it, as he recalled in Rivendell, and he could well have kept it from escaping. When they hit the far bottom where the icy underground moat lay, the flame of the Balrog was extinguished, and it became a chunk of ash. When they found their way out and Gandalf made the thing fall once again, it was still wet and could not properly fly. As for the age of the Balrogs, there may be "older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world", but this quotation does not include Sauron, so I must say I think he is older. Gandalf calls the Balrog of Moria "Flame of Udun", Udun being a valley in the land of Mordor, so I got the impression that they were bred by Sauron, as that is his land.


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## Grond

> _Originally posted by Smèagol_Gollum _
> *A Balrog is a thing of living embers, with fire licking from its eyes and great wings that were hazed with smog. It could not fly when Gandalf shattered the Bridge because it fell backwards, and if you think about it, a bird cannot lie upside down and fly. Plus, Gandalf fell with it, as he recalled in Rivendell, and he could well have kept it from escaping. When they hit the far bottom where the icy underground moat lay, the flame of the Balrog was extinguished, and it became a chunk of ash. When they found their way off and Gandalf mad the thing fall once again, it was still wet and could not properly fly. As for the age of the Balrogs, there may be "older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world", but this quotation does not include Sauron, so I must say I think he is older. Gandalf calls the Balrog of Moria "Flame of Udun", Udun being a valley in the land of Mordor, so I got the impression that they were bred by Sauron, as that is his land. *


Your quote isn't exactly right and if you think Sauron created Balrogs, you need to read the Silmarillion, The Valaquenta, Chapter Of the Enemies. It will tell you why you are wrong.  By the way.... welcome to the forum.


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## Beleg Strongbow

> _Originally posted by Smèagol_Gollum _
> *quotation does not include Sauron, so I must say I think he is older. Gandalf calls the Balrog of Moria "Flame of Udun", Udun being a valley in the land of Mordor, so I got the impression that they were bred by Sauron, as that is his land. *




The balrogs were made by iluvatar and as maia and then were tortured, bred and corrupted by the greatest vala Morgoth, the REAL dark lord of whom Sauron was only a servant. I still beleive that the balrogs can't fly. Who has heard of a maia flying??   And if a balrog fell back down it would still be able 2 fly and he wasn't lying aganist something on his back he had only air. Also does anyone no if there are any more balrogs lurking in deep places.

P.S if the balrogs spent most of their times under ground whether in Angband, Utumno or in moria eg. how would they have been able 2 test there wings?


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## Flame of Utumno

> _Originally posted by Smèagol_Gollum _
> *Gandalf calls the Balrog of Moria "Flame of Udun", Udun being a valley in the land of Mordor, so I got the impression that they were bred by Sauron, as that is his land. *



'Udun' is the Sindarin form of the Quenya word 'Utumno' which was the first fortress of Melkor in Middle Earth. Furthermore, they were not bred, but were Maia that became evil.


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## Smèagol_Gollum

Sorry, I had forgotten about Utumno, and by bred, I meant converted to Melkors side of evil. I still say they had wings, because Tolkien was never a believer of evolution and would not have thought about that kind of thing. And why couldn't the Maiar have wings? I'm sure Manwe had wings, being a lover of the wind and sky.


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## Belladonna Took

*balrog wings*

Perhaps this is getting too allegorical (and I know Tolkein hated allegory) but I always thought of the Balrogs as demons, like the angels who followed Lucifer out of heaven. I would assume that they perhaps lost some power when they became evil Maiar, and I would think that they would be confined to a bodily form and therefore killable. I don't think that they were or could be bred b/c none of the Valar or Maiar were able to breed (except Luthien's mother, but that was a special case)


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## Halasían

Kraas said:


> As for the wings bit...I think they had them, and used them, but they only flew when they had to. There's a part in the Silmarillion that states that Morgoth or Glaurung or someone sent tongues of flame "faster than the Balrogs" sweeping over Ard-Galen. And I think that wings would be the best way to move quickly over long distances (like the Balrogs coming to Morgoth's aid when Shelob attacked him). There are probably other ways of travel. Maybe Balrogs can fly without wings, but I've always saw them as having wings.


_If _Balrogs had wings, how is it that the one in Moria_ "fell"? _
Would he have simply flapped its wings and flew and/or hovered?


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## Oromedur

Halasían said:


> _If _Balrogs had wings, how is it that the one in Moria_ "fell"? _
> Would he have simply flapped its wings and flew and/or hovered?


They have a habit of falling. They don't have wings.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner

On the other hand. . .


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## Squint-eyed Southerner

And while I'm at it:


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## Oromedur

Don’t think the angelic nature of the Ainur was quite that allegorical but it’s one that splits opinion for sure!


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