# High Kingship of the Noldor



## Angelimir (Oct 6, 2020)

Why didn’t Elrond or even Galadriel claim lordship over all the Noldor in Middle Earth? Galadriel had the stronger claim, as a more direct link to the house of Finwe, but Elrond was a male. I realize both were Lords in their own right. Still, all Elves that would accept one of them as King or Queen, discounting Thraduil’s people. Wouldn’t it have been better to have all Elves under one banner? Opinions?


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## Olorgando (Oct 7, 2020)

At least in the Third Age, it may have boiled down to High Kingship over what? There probably weren't many Noldor left in the Second Age, and those probably got decimated by Sauron's attack or Eriador (depopulating Celebrimbor's Eregion in the process) and the War of the Last Alliance at the end of that Age. The Third Age was the beginning of the rule of Men over Middle-earth. It's kind of like the rank one can reach in the military depending on the number of soldiers you command. Calling yourself a General when what you command is the equivalent of a battalion (less than 1,000) is ridiculous. And if you then take into account how widely spread the three main centers of Elvendom (or four including Thranduil's realm) in the Grey Havens, Rivendell and Lothlórien were, often separated by hostile (Misty Mountains, Mirkwood, the country between Rivendell and Bree) or at least non-Elven territory (Bree to the western end of the Shire), a central command would have had some serious difficulties in communications.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 7, 2020)

Plus, they were all essentially _polders, _paralleling the three kingdoms of the First Age (leaving out the Grey Havens, which we never actually "see").


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## Alcuin (Oct 8, 2020)

This is a great question, Angelimir! Here’s a long-winded answer. 

If I recall correctly, Galadriel is described at one point as the greatest of the Noldor save Fëanor alone. (This was in the context of his asking her for a single strand of her hair, which she denied him, so that they were _unfriends forever_; hence the shock of the Elves when Gimli named a single strand of Galadriel’s hair as his desire at the Nine Walker’s departure from Lórien.) Galadriel is extraordinarily powerful, even for a Noldo; however, she is not a war-leader, and the whole purpose of the Noldor’s coming to Middle-earth was to wage war upon Morgoth, at least for everyone but Galadriel. Her purpose was, perhaps*, more because she wanted a kingdom or realm of her own. She went to Eregion with Celebrimbor, the chief and perhaps only surviving descendent of Fëanor in Arda, but Celebrimbor and the Mírdain (Elven-smiths) cast her out after Annatar, Sauron in disguise, cozened them with his gifts of knowledge that he truly possessed, but misused to their ruin. Galadriel together with Celeborn eventually ruled Lothlórien, but that eventually ended with the destruction of the Ruling Ring. 

All that said, I think the answer to the question, _Why did Galadriel not rule as High Queen of the Noldor?_ is that she was not a warrior. The Númenóreans changed their law of succession from agnatic primogeniture (succession by the eldest male descendent) to simple primogeniture (succession by the descendent) only after six long generations of peace lasting more than 900 years. Their reasoning was that they were unlikely to be attacked in a way that drew their sovereign into battle. (I think there is reasonable evidence that Tar-Telperiën, the second Ruling Queen, made her nephew Minastir co-regent with her in order that he could prepare the Númenóreans for their war in alliance with the Eldar against Sauron: he served as the warrior-king and rightly received credit for sending the expedition to Middle-earth, while Telperiën continue to rule as the senior sovereign. In Gondor, this arrangement between Narmacil I and his nephew Minalcar, who later ruled as Romendacil II, saw Minalcar bear the title _Karma-kundo_, or “Guardian of the Helm”.) 

As for Elrond, the situation is a little different. He was not technically a Noldo, but a Sinda. It’s easier to understand if we first examine this from the perspective of his brother, Elros. Both of the brothers were Half-elves. Choosing to be mortal, Elros was counted as a Man, and was accounted the Chieftain of the Third House of the Edain, which he inherited from his father Eärendil, who inherited it from his father Tuor, who inherited it from his uncle Húrin after his cousin Túrin Turambar, Húrin’s son, died without issue. Note that Túrin never claimed to hold that position, Húrin held it while long a prisoner of Morgoth, but Tuor, apparently, was recognized as the leader of the Men of the Mouths of Sirion, along with Elwing, the granddaughter of Lúthien and Beren (last chieftain of the First House), whom Eärendil later married, uniting those two Houses of Men into one line; and since the Second House, which was nearly annihilated, chose its Haldad or chieftain from among the kindred of the leading family, their survivors were also free to follow Eärendil and later Elros, since they were (apparently) the only survivors of that clan of the tribe. Finally, the Kings of Númenor never actually referred to themselves as the “House of Elros”, but rather as the “House of _Eärendil_”, harkening back to the position of their forefather as, first and foremost, leader of the Third House of the Edain, or at least what was left of it. Note that the position need not have been _claimed_: Elros was _de facto_ chieftain of the Third and First Houses _by right_, by birth, and no doubt by accomplishments. 

What then of Elrond? As Elros was counted among Men, so Elrond was counted among Elves. His mother Elwing was a Sinda of Doriath, daughter of the second and last recognized King of Doriath and High King of the Sindar, Dior _Eluchíl_ or “Elu’s Heir”. His father Eärendil was descended of Turgon, reckoned High King of the Noldor, but through his grandmother, Idril. _Technically_ his patrilineal line marked him as a Man, but since as a Half-elf he’d chosen to be counted among the Elves, Elrond was one of the Sindar because that’s what his mother was†, and he had chosen his Elven heritage.

Elrond never accounted himself equal to Gil-galad, the last High King of the Noldor in Middle-earth, though both of them were born in Middle-earth; instead he served as Gil-galad’s herald and trouble-shooter, sent by the king to Eregion to bolster its defense against Sauron in the War of the Elves and Sauron, leading the survivors of that realm to safe refuge in the Misty Mountains when Eregion was overrun and destroyed. There Elrond remained, ruler of his own little sovereignty for over 4700 years. 

As Olorgando pointed out, there were fewer and fewer Noldor left in the Second and Third Ages. Most of them returned to Aman at the end of the War of Wrath at the end of the First Age, and more emigrated in the following centuries. Many were killed in the wars of the Second Age against Sauron, the War of the Elves and Sauron and the War of the Last Alliance. Over what polity would Elrond claim sovereignty? Eregion had been a mixed population of Noldor and Sindar, but it was gone. Likewise Lindon was mixed; and so were the survivors of the wars of Beleriand at the end of the First Age near the Mouths of Sirion. 

By the way, Elrond’s declining to accept or claim a royal title had a powerful influence on the surviving Dúnedain of Arthedain: After the death of Arvedui following the conquest of Fornost by Angmar, the leaders of the Dúnedain in Eriador called themselves “Chieftains” rather than “kings”. I think this choice was influenced by Elrond’s lack of any title greater than “Master of Rivendell.” 
───◊───
* “Perhaps” Galadriel returned to Middle-earth to found her own realm to rule. The textual history of the _history_ of Galadriel, as Elthir can tell you better than I, is most complicated.
† Elwing was also Half-elven, though. Dior Eluchíl was mortal because both Beren _and_ Lúthien were mortal when he was born. The Elves of Doriath probably never knew this: Dior died in the Second Kinslaying of the Noldor, when the Sons of Fëanor sacked Doriath in their attempt to obtain the Silmaril of Beren and Lúthien. Elwing’s mother was an Elf.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Oct 8, 2020)

Politics isn't just a competition of power, it also takes a variety of elements into account. For example, why not Numenor just waged war against the whole Middle-Earth and conquer it?Cause of economic reason, that the it's too costly, just like USA in modern days couldn't just take the whole earth as it's own house's kitchen XD.
On the aspect of political legitimacy, both of their's bloodline were too distant. On the aspect of economic and military necessity, Boss-level enemies like Sauron has already been game over, there's no need for any unification.(Gondor, was another matter, standing as the first line against Easterlings.)


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 8, 2020)

Alcuin said:


> (This was in the context of his asking her for a single strand of her hair, which she denied him, so that they were _unfriends forever_; hence the shock of the Elves when Gimli named a single strand of Galadriel’s hair as his desire at the Nine Walker’s departure from Lórien.)


I'll go off topic for a minor point here: Feanor asked _three times, _which is structurally significant, and asked for _a whole tress, _which our learned Aluin himself pointed out in this thread, lo these many years ago:









Why did Galadriel's give three hairs to Gimli, who only asked for one?


Lord of the Rings, Farewell to Lórien: `And what gift would a Dwarf ask of the Elves? ' said Galadriel turning to Gimli. `None, Lady,' answered Gimli. `It is enough for me to have seen the Lady of the Galadhrim, and to have heard her gentle words.' `Hear all ye Elves! ' she cried to...




www.thetolkienforum.com


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## Elthir (Oct 8, 2020)

Alcuin said:


> * “Perhaps” Galadriel returned to Middle-earth to found her own realm to rule. The textual history of the _history_ of Galadriel, as Elthir can tell you better than I, is most complicated.




I agree with, and adopt, this early 1950s scenario -- the words of Feanor had kindled her heart
"for she yearned to see the wide unguarded lands and to rule there a realm of her own will"

_Concerning Galadriel And Celeborn_ briefly notes that she had been "eager to adventure there"

In the much later_ Shibboleth of Feanor_ account, Galadriel's reasons are still "she had dreams of far lands and dominions that might be her own to order as she would without tutelage" . . .

. . . and pride influences her decision to keep on with the Rebellion, plus a burning desire to thwart Feanor -- yet in this version Galadriel fights in defense of the Teleri (not present in the 1950s scenario in my opinion), and here, in contradiction to already published text (RGEO), she "refused the pardon the Valar" . . .

. . . also, this text goes on to suggest, at least in my opinion, that "all that she had desired in her youth came to hand" -- being the Ring of Power and the dominion of Middle-earth -- "of which she had dreamed"

Her dreams had included the _dominion of Middle-earth_? That's quite the "realm" of her own!

For myself, think that's a bit much even for the young Galadriel. Granted, _after_ the One was made Nerwen does admit (to Frodo) that she greatly desired to ask for the One, and for long years had pondered what she might do with it . . . but I don't see that as necessarily agreeing with her original designs as described in other texts.

In the very late adumbrated tale Galadriel wished to depart from Valinor "and to go into the wide world of Middle-earth for the exercise of her talents" as she felt confined in the tutelage of Aman, although this is couched in an account that, yet again, steps on already published text, as Galadriel here is not even part of the Rebellion!


Another reason I adopt the 1950s scenario is not only that if fits well enough with RGEO, but it was written in the same general phase of Galadriel's chat with Melian and the Finarfinian reaction to Thingol in Doriath -- meaning that, it's my belief that these scenes were written within the concept of the Finarfinians not being involved in the kinslaying in any measure, not even in defense of the Teleri.

They simply arrived too late, as appears to be the case before the introduction of Galadriel.


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## Alcuin (Oct 8, 2020)

Hisoka Morrow said:


> Politics isn't just a competition of power, it also takes a variety of elements into account. For example, why not Numenor just waged war against the whole Middle-Earth and conquer it?[ ]Cause of economic reason, that the it's too costly, just like USA in modern days couldn't just take the whole earth as it's own house's kitchen …
> 
> On the aspect of political legitimacy, both of [their] bloodline[s] were too distant. On the aspect of economic and military necessity, Boss-level enemies like Sauron [had] already been game over, there's no need for any unification.(Gondor, was another matter, standing as the first line against Easterlings.)


I’m not sure contemporary political situations are apropos to the conditions of the Second Age. There may be applicability in the story to people or events in day-to-day life, but this is a work of fiction.

Nevertheless, I don’t think any Númenórean other than Ar-Pharazôn had aspirations of “world domination”, à la Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin, or Genghis Khan. In Tolkien’s Arda, only Morgoth and Sauron desired “world domination”; Ar-Pharazôn seems to have been a late comer to the party, and a pipsqueak in comparison to the two Ainur against whom he dared compare himself. 

As far as “bloodlines” were concerned, Galadriel’s bloodline was as direct as Fingon, Finrod’s or Turgon’s, and one or two generations more direct that Gil-galad, who was her junior in age and generations from Finwë, the first High King of the Noldor. Elrond, I think, simply eschewed any such title, though the Eldar themselves all seemingly recognized him as their most senior (military?) leader in the Third Age.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Oct 9, 2020)

Alcuin said:


> ...Nevertheless, I don’t think any Númenórean other than Ar-Pharazôn had aspirations of “world domination”, à la Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin, or Genghis Khan. In Tolkien’s Arda, only Morgoth and Sauron desired “world domination”; Ar-Pharazôn seems to have been a late comer to the party, and a pipsqueak in comparison to the two Ainur against whom he dared compare himself....


Hmmm...JRRT mentioned the economic demands of Numenor kept growing like a endless Abyss, won't this lead to their "world domination" motives as military strategic goal? 🧐


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## Elthir (Oct 9, 2020)

With respect to Galadriel's claim, *so far* I tend to lean toward the following explanations by William Hicklin -- which, if you don't want to read the following explanations by William Hicklin, essentially mean that Galadriel herself could not claim the High "Queenship" of the Noldor in Middle-earth, *even if *circumstances were different.

For the record I don't believe that Galadriel was (necessarily) ousted from Eregion, and I find the tale of Feanor asking for her hair slightly problematic -- but these opinions are based on my personal take on canon, meaning that I'm aware that there's certainly Tolkien-written text for Alcuin or anyone to base the Eregion-ousting on, and obviously, Feanor asking Galadriel for her hair (well, not all of it) has become near "fact" in almost every Tolkien forum or site I visit.

Admittedly my stubbornness regarding the latter matter will seem trivial to most folk if not all, but here it is in an eggshell: Tolkien _published_ that Galadriel's hair was deep golden.

Anyway, the following sections are from *William Hicklin.
_____________________________________________________________*

"I think it's possible to argue that among the Noldor, being indefinitely longeval, they didn't think of succession as being a matter of direct lineage, but rather "The eldest surviving (male) member of the House of Finwë." This really makes more sense- and also explains why Turgon would be his brother's heir _no matter whose son Gil-Galad was_. And it would really explain why Gil-Galad became High King on Turgon's death, even though Turgon's lineal heir was Eärendil (acknowledged as ruler of the Havens, and his descent was definitely in the female line). In fact, inheritance through (rather than to) a female seems to have been fine among the Elves: Maeglin thought to become Turgon's heir by marrying Idril; and Dior succeeded in right of his mother Lúthien. "

"An observation on 'male primogeniture:' I don't think it quite fits the given accounts (any of them) to impose the Salic Law on the Eldarin royal houses. The more I revolve the claim of kingship as it in fact passed (and didn't pass), the more I am convinced that Kingship among the Elves could pass in the female line, but not to a female: she would preserve it for her male descendants. If this is the case then it makes perfect sense why Dior is Thingol's Heir, not Luthien; that Earendil son of Idril rules at the Havens (and that his wife Elwing was not "Queen" of the Sindarin majority there), and that T[olkien] never even considers Galadriel as being a claimant. (Perhaps one reason he dumped Amroth as G & C's son is that Amroth would have suddenly become a claimant- instead, G has a daughter, who has a daughter...whose son Eldarion 'scion of Elves' is considerd the ruler of Middle-earth's remaining Eldar.)."

"( . . .) I think that may be it precisely: seniority in age was what mattered, rather than line of descent. G-G was older than Earendil. After all, the Elves' quasi-immortality poses a real problem for the traditional Mannish system of lineal primogeniture- there's always a chance that a child from a senior line to the reigning King could pop up."

"( . . .) Perhaps the law was simply "the eldest male member of the Royal House in Middle-earth." Elves didn't have to worry about an older generation being short-lived! Therefore Turgon would come before GG, no matter who GG's father was, and GG would then be senior to Earendil."


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## ZehnWaters (Nov 29, 2020)

Elthir's point seems to fit best. Galadriel couldn't rule because she was a woman. I'm unsure what impact having a non Noldor husband would have. I also find it odd that, despite WANTING to rule a realm of her own, didn't do so until late into the 2nd Age.


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