# Aragorn & Arwen, related



## dougm (Dec 25, 2001)

*aragorn marries his uncle's daughter?*

as i recall, aragorn is sired from the blood of elros, who the mortal brother to the elf elrond. now after many generations, aragorn is to marry elrond's daughter, arwen. is this kinda creepy?


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## Greymantle (Dec 26, 2001)

There were 6,460 years between the lives of Elros and Aragorn. That's approximately 22 generations in the blood of Numenor, but closer to 92 generations by the reckoning of normal Men. This would make Arwen something like Aragorn's great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-
great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-cousin. Puh-leese.


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## Black Horseman (Dec 26, 2001)

Elrond himself marrried Galadriel's daughter wich is his kindda grand cousin daughter's because Gladriel is the cousin of his grandfather Turgon. And I don't have my Sil under my hand but I remember that there is much more of this in his human lineage.


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## curious_nomad (Dec 26, 2001)

*Talk about a messed up family tree.*

Wait!

When Galadriel gives Aragorn his gift he states that Arwen was sprung from Galadriel does he not? But if Elrond is Arwen's father but Elrond married some other dude... ummmmmmmm. Someone please disspell my confusion.


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## Telchar (Dec 26, 2001)

Elronds wife, Arwens mother was Celebrían, daughter of Celeborn and Galadriel..


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## curious_nomad (Dec 26, 2001)

I understand. So Arwen is Galadriel's Granddaughter and Elrond her son-in-law. All makes sense now. Thanx.


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## Earnil (Jan 2, 2002)

If you think Aragorn marrying Arwen(who is related to him) is bad, then you haven't fully read The Silmarillion. In the Tale of Turin it says that he married Nienor and she bore a child to him. Now the bad thing about that is Turin and Nienor were brother and sister.


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## Thariel (Jan 3, 2002)

And didn't Ar-Pharazon and his 1st cousin marry?


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## Wizdon (Jan 3, 2002)

I'm so confused....


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## Elanor2 (Jan 3, 2002)

Hi Greymantle,

>>>There were 6,460 years between the lives of Elros and Aragorn. That's approximately 22 generations in the blood of Numenor, ...<<<

Wait a sec. If we divide 6460 by 800 (about what a pure numenorean can live, if I remember correctly), it comes to 80 generations, not 22.

There where about 22 generations of kings in Numenor, but you might have forgotten the generations from Isildur to Aragorn in ME. Or am I counting wrong here?


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## BluestEye (Jan 3, 2002)

*Middle-Earth and Middle-Ages*

First of all, let me introduce myself: I am BluestEye, aka Itai from Israel 
Now, what we are forgetting in this argument is that we are talkin about Tolkien's works, and these works tell us ancient stories of long long time ago. It is known that people merried inside the family a long time ago, and even untill the beginning of the 20th century. So it is not SO strange that these same things happened some 7,500 years ago at the time of The Lord Of The Rings or before that. I find it beautiful. It makes the story even more "ancient" with this idea of merriage inside the family, don't you think?


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## pgt (Jan 3, 2002)

Elenor2, Sorry, but I seem to recall it was 300 years granted to them (which started declining after the fall of Numenor?) which is how Graymantle figured it. It may not figure out to be exactly 22 but that's at least close. You can see all the kings mentioned in the chronologies in the appendix.


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## Greymantle (Jan 3, 2002)

Yeah, I just put a rough estimate... I didn't feel like counting through all those Tars!  I placed an estimate at 300 years and roughly figured it from there...


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## BelDain (Jan 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Earnil _
> *If you think Aragorn marrying Arwen(who is related to him) is bad, then you haven't fully read The Silmarillion. In the Tale of Turin it says that he married Nienor and she bore a child to him. Now the bad thing about that is Turin and Nienor were brother and sister. *



Hey, give them a break. They were "confused."


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## Bombur (Jan 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Elanor2 _
> *Wait a sec. If we divide 6460 by 800 (about what a pure numenorean can live, if I remember correctly), it comes to 80 generations, not 22.
> *



Elros Tar-Minyatur (Elrond's brother) only lived to be 500 years old (check the Akallabeth). Elros was the longest lived man ever (not counting Earendil and Tuor who became elves anyway). Therefore, 300 is probably a better estimate.


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## Grond (Jan 16, 2002)

You're correct Bombur and I have discovered another incorrect assumption used in the calculation. The premise of 300 years asserts that the new King is born as the old King dies when in fact much overlap occurs. It is likely that each King probably only reigned for an average of 150 - 200 years. I'll look to see. The counting will be interesting.


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## BluestEye (Jan 17, 2002)

Ah! This is what I like about Tolkien's works. They make you look for clues and dates that bring you facts you couldn't figure out without having this research. It's funny, because if you're not a real fan of Tolkien's works - you wouldn't notice all these beautiful details...

BluestEye


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## Tar-Steve (Jan 17, 2002)

It doesn't hurt to have a forum full of freaks to spur you along!


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## Mithrandir_II (Jan 17, 2002)

elves live forever (if they are not slain and do not grow tired of middle-earth) so they all end up marrying cousins if ya think about it. If no one ever died, everyone would be related somehow... er -- wait a second... if ya think about it we are all cousins; just very very very distant cousins


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## Brent (Jan 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Black Horseman _
> *Elrond himself marrried Galadriel's daughter wich is his kindda grand cousin daughter's because Gladriel is the cousin of his grandfather Turgon. And I don't have my Sil under my hand but I remember that there is much more of this in his human lineage. *


Elronds grandfather was Tuor not Turgon, Turgon was his great grandfather, since he was the son of Earendil


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## Brent (Jan 25, 2002)

And please don't forget Maeglin who carried a secret passion of Idril. But the Sil says that the Elves wed not one so close in kin.

Maeglin was the Son of Aredhel sister of Turgon who was the father of Idril. Them elves didn't like that, indeed its seen as evidence of Maeglins warpedness as it says nor had one wanted to up until then.


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## Anamatar IV (Dec 14, 2002)

*Arwen and Aragorn's marriage? THis is not right...*

Has anyone wondered yet about Arwen and Aragorn's marriage. They are practically cousins. 

Over the years Aragorn was a decendant of Elros who is brother of Elrond whose daughter is Arwen who married Aragorn. 

Is there a better explanation or is this just how it works?


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## Link (Dec 14, 2002)

I don't think you understand just how many generations have passed and how un-related to each other they really are.


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## Anamatar IV (Dec 14, 2002)

I do understand that but generations cant *completely* break up a family so much that the ethics against marrying your family members break.


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## Eledhwen (Dec 14, 2002)

You have to call a halt somewhere - I've heard that almost the entire population of Iceland originates from five families, also Prince Charles and Lady Diana Spencer were 15th cousins. I think Aragorn's elf genes were watered down enough over the millennia.


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## Húrin Thalion (Dec 14, 2002)

Let us see exactly how distant the kinship is:

First we have Vardamir Nolimon and Arwen, they were cousins. After that there are 23 generations of Kings of Númenor and Lords of Andunië. Then there were the 10 high kings of Anor, many kings of Arthedain and 16 chieftains. That means that the number is above 60 generations! Also why should it be wrong with a marriage between cousins? It is legally allowed in most western countries (Sweden at least).

Húrin Thalion


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## morello13 (Dec 14, 2002)

Aragorn and Arwen are far enough apart sure, but what about Turin and Neinor, how did they have a kid without it being a dotard?
Brother and Sister, gross.


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## Ithrynluin (Dec 14, 2002)

If I remember correctly, Nienor did not yet bear child...the spell of Glaurung was removed and she came to her senses. She realized that she had married her own brother and she jumped from a cliff, killing herself and her unborn child.


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## morello13 (Dec 14, 2002)

oh, they still ... you know


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## Ithrynluin (Dec 14, 2002)

Well yeah they did. It was all part of Melkor's horrible curse on Húrin and his family.


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## Ithrynluin (Dec 15, 2002)

When Húrin was released from the captivity of Morgoth, he found Morwen, but their reunion was bitter and sad. They were both weakened and aged from Morgoth's foul curse, and their children had died tragically. Morwen and Húrin spoke for a brief while and then she died. She was buried along with Turin (but not Nienor for her body was lost in the river) and their grave is marked by the Stone of the Hapless, which commemorates Morwen, Turin and Nienor. Their grave was a holy place untouched by Morgoth, and it wasn't lost under the waves, but remained as Tol Morwen.

EDIT: Why did you delete your post, morello13?


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## morello13 (Dec 16, 2002)

it was a stupid question, and I rembered that she passed away near that stone


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## Marenautha (Dec 18, 2002)

I have a question for you guys about Aragon and Arwen.
I'm still learning about Tolkien's actual writings. 
I was told that the story of Aragon and Arwen was not even in the book of Lord of Rings but in another story. Is it in the Simallarian and was I told wrong?


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## Niniel (Dec 19, 2002)

It's in the Appendices to LOTR, so if you have a one-volume edition with appendices it's in LOTR.


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## Marenautha (Dec 19, 2002)

Thanks Niniel! I'll look and tell my friend about that and tell her to take a look.


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## Calimehtar (Dec 19, 2002)

Also in the like... 3rd to last chapter in LOTR, it tells of their plans to wed. Its around the part where it is saying that Eowyn and Faramir are going to get married.


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## Marenautha (Dec 20, 2002)

Thanks for the info. I'm reading it now, so I'll be sure to watch for it.


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## Gil-Galad (Dec 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Link _
> *I don't think you understand just how many generations have passed and how un-related to each other they really are. *


That is right.A couple cannot get married if they are relatives,but they can if more than 9 generations have passed before them.I mean that if they are a son and a daughter of a son and a daughter of a son and a daughter of a son and a daughter of a son and a daughter of a son and a daughter of a son and a daughter of a son and a daughter of a son and a daughter of two brothers thec can marry.


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## LordOfMoria (Feb 9, 2003)

*Numenor and Elrond*

*A Knife in the Dark* 



> Elrond of Rivendell is of that Kin. For of Beren and Luthien was born Dor Thingol's Heir; and of himElwing the White whom Earendil wedded, he that said his ship out of the mists of the world into the seas of heaven with the Silmaril upon his brow. And of Earendil came the Kings of Numenor, that is Westernesse.



After re-reading this, it has come to my attention that some how or another, Arwen and Aragorn are related. Small but surely. Aragorn is Numenor and Arwen is Elronds Child. Elrond is the kin of Luthien and Beren! 


Am i right or am i missing somehting???


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 9, 2003)

Aragorn's blood was so mingled through the myriad of generations of Men that their was nothing wrong in them coming together...nothing that we would consider incest...


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## Bombadillo (Feb 10, 2003)

if you take the reletions of people, you will find family connections if you go back enough generations...


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## Beleg (Feb 10, 2003)

Yes they belong to one family. But Elrond and Elros were two children of Elwing. And Elrond's daughter is Arwen Evenstar while Elros Tar Ministair was the first King of Numenor. So this makes them cousins. And remember age in Tolkien's writing doesn't matter a lot. 


Tolkien wrote somewhere and the Quote is something like this, 

*and by this Marriage the lineage of the Half Elven that were sundered was joined again.,-* It would be better if someone provides the exact quote.


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## Goldberry (Feb 10, 2003)

Arwen and Aragorn are very very very distant cousins.


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## Ghan-buri-ghan (Feb 10, 2003)

And. . .Moreover. . . 

you remember when Bilbo recited his story in Rivendell, about Earendil? And later Aragorn chided Bilbo for "having the cheek" to make up stories about Earendil in the house of Elrond? 

Well, as sure as Arwen is Elrond's daughter Earendil is Elrond's. . . . .. . 




(Wait for it)









Father!


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## Manwë Súlimo (Feb 10, 2003)

This should take care of a lot of questions concerning relations. It is a family tree of Eldar and Edain.

My tree


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## Niniel (Feb 10, 2003)

Beleg, you mean 'By the last the long-sundered branches of the Half-elven were reunited and their line was restored (Appendix A). But indeed on Aragorn's side of the line there had passed so many generations that it was really no problem for him to marry Arwen.


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## Beleg (Feb 11, 2003)

Yup that's it Niniel and thanks Manwe.


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## S & R Gamgee (Apr 28, 2003)

I was looking in the back of the sil at the family trees and found out that Aragorn and Arwen are distantly related.





Note from Nóm: This first post is cloned from the "Hardest fact" thread, and those on the topic that followed it have been moved here.


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## Maeglin (Apr 28, 2003)

yes I know, Arwen is Aragorn's 50 some-odd cousin, or vice versa.


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## S & R Gamgee (Apr 28, 2003)

I thought that was quite interesting. My friends didn't believe me when I told them. they don't think Aragorn and Arwen are related. It's cool cause that means Aragorn has at least some elvish blood in him.


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## Farin (Apr 29, 2003)

In a nut shell---> Aragorn is a decendant from the ancient line of kings in Numenor which Elros, Elrond's brother, began and ruled. Arwen is Elros' neice, so technically Aragorn and Arwen are related


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## Beleg (Apr 30, 2003)

Arwen is his aunt of 66 generation's back. 

The date is 210.
He was born in shire Reckoning 1331 and died in Shire Reckoning 1541.


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## The Tall Hobbit (May 1, 2003)

> It's cool cause that means Aragorn has at least some elvish blood in him.


Not just Elvish blood.

As decendents of Luthien, Aragorn and Arwen are both part maiar.


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## Celebthôl (May 1, 2003)

Did you all know (im leaving topic for a sec) that in our life we are all related as it came to such a bad problem and we all have the same super-dooper great-grandmother (it was on the National geographic channel 

But yeah he was Maia and Elve and...Man (funnily enough)  all of the kings were


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## Wynston (May 1, 2003)

Yeah, they are extremely distant cousins. I doubt if they would have two headed children or anything. Even in the U.S. where it is illegal to marry a relative closer than 3rd or 4th removed (except in the South where its okay to marry even closer than that.....hehe jk!!!! =) ), they would be okay.


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## Gil-Galad (May 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Glorfindel1187 _
> *yes I know, Arwen is Aragorn's 50 some-odd cousin, or vice versa. *


As I said "relatives"cannot get married if 9 generations before them have not passed.Well in Aragorn and Arwen's case the generations are 50!


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## Elfarmari (May 5, 2003)

I did this a while ago for another thread:

Luthien-50% Maia, 50% Elf__________Beren- 100% Edain
Dior-25% Maia, 25% Elf, 50% Edain_____Nimloth- 100% Elf
Elwing- 12.5% Maia, 62.5% Elf, 25% Edain

Tuor- 100% Edain_________Idril-100% Elf
Earendil- 50% Edain, 50% Elf

Elwing- 12.5% Maia, 62.5% Elf, 25% Edain__Earendil- 50% Edain, 50% Elf
Elrond and Elros- 6.25% Maia, 56.25% Elf, 37.5% Edain

Elrond- 6.25% Maia, 56.25% Elf, 37.5% Edain__Celebrian 100% Elf
Arwen- 3.125% Maia, 78.125 Elf, 18.75% Edain__Aragorn 100% Edain (at this point, Aragorn had about 7.623 x 10^-19% Elvish blood, which does not count in my opinion.)
Any of their children- 1.5625% Maia, 39.0625% Elf, 59.375% Edain


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## Arvedui (Jun 16, 2003)

The lineage is a little bit difficult to figure out, at least from the Appendices.

Elendil the Tall was son of Amandil. But I can't find how many generations there were between Amandil and Valandil. From Elros Tar-Minyatur to Valandil there were 6 generations:
Elros, Vardamir, Tar-Amandil, Tar-Elendil, Silmariën, Valandil. Then there is a big gap, ending with Amandil and Elendil.
Based in my assumption that the lives of the Lords of Andúnië were equal in length to the Kings and Queens of Númenor, then there were 24 generations, starting with Elros, and ending with Ar-Pharazôn.

If Elendil is number 24 in line, then the list follows as this:
10 Kings of Arnor.
15 Kings of Arthedain
16 Chieftains, ending with Aragorn as the 16th.

All in all, that leaves us with 65 generations +/-, starting with Elros and ending with Aragorn Elessar.


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## Mahal (Jun 16, 2003)

In the beginning the line of Elros could become 400 years old and after Antanamir The great it started to decay and they lived until they died and could not become so old again. And with Arwen and Elessar so many years I think it worked out fine


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## Normshallalhaz (Aug 23, 2011)

The child of my 1st cousin is my 1st cousin, once removed.
The child of my 1st cousin, once removed is my 1st cousin, twice removed, etc.
The child of my cousin is 2nd cousin to my child
The children of 2nd cousins are 3rd cousins to each other
Therefore, since Arwen is the daughter of Elrond and Aragorn is the decendent of Elrond's brother Elros, Arwen and Aragorn are 1st cousins ~65 times removed. Arwen's and Aragorn's children will therefore be brother and/or sister to each other as well as 2nd cousins, ~65 times removed.


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## CirdanLinweilin (Oct 17, 2016)

Ancient Biblical times was incest, so I think Aragorn and Arwen are a much less mild representation.

Now Turin and Nienor..........*shudders*


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## Red Leaf (Nov 7, 2016)

apologies for my first post on this forum being on the subject of incest...

the genetic realtionship between Aragorn and Arwen is, unfortunately, nothing to feel queasy over. the current view amongst genetists is that a full one half of all the human children born in the last 100,000 years have been born as a result of a 'relationship' between first cousins _or closer..._

which rather puts getting shacked up with your first cousin, four hundred times removed into context.


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## PaigeSinclaire88 (Dec 20, 2016)

Again, this goes to this idea that Tolkien was writing of days of old, in days of old much of royalty married within the family to keep the royal blood alive. With that said, we dont know if Tolkien did this intentionally, I'm a strong believer in that a writer much like a director uses every decision to his advantage. Whether it is how the camera is placed or in this instance the bloodline of his characters. 

I put this together when I read the Simirillion. But I hadn't thought much of it since then. 

I think that this family tree is a knod to the old ways, subtly referencing old England. As they were known for inbreeding and keeping Royal blood alive for the sake of the country. Now mind you, when Aragorn and Arwen are together their living in a war torn country at the time they are in love. Granted we are to believe that they are together before this time but during the time of war they are deeply in love. It stands to reason that absence made the heart grew fonder. 

Also, let it be known that Arwen is supposed to be the reincarnation of_ Luthien_, so they needed her to be with a ranger, and let's be honest Farmier wouldn't cut it and neither would have Bormier's character. Aragorn was the true king of Gonder, a character that was fixated upon so much so_* The Return of the King *_was about him becoming king and essentially saving and redeeming the race of men. This would make him a perfect fit for Arwen as she is Royalty and she wouldnt be made to be anything less. And as she chose mortality and Aragorn saved humans this makes sense in the realm of fiction.


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## Ingolmin (Dec 24, 2016)

It is not at all creepy. Aragorn was of the Dunedain, descendant of Elros twin of Elrond. And Dunedain did intermarriage between themselves as well as many elves. Elrond and Celebrian also shared a relation which by the Family tree made Celebrian elder to Elrond. But that does not make any difference. I will give two more examples, Tar Aldarion's real maternal grandfather was Veantur, descendant of Elros and Aldarion's father Tar Meneldur was also a descendant of Elros. Queen Inzilbeth, sister of Earendur, direct descendant of Silmarien married Ar Gimilzor, descendant of Tar Meneldur, brother of Silmarien.
In elves, marriage was permitted between second or third cousins.
So, the marriage of Aragorn and Arwen is truly justified.

Let me introduce myself to all of you, I am Ingolmin, descendant of Elrond Halfelven and a young loremaster.
Merry Christmas!!


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## Halasían (Dec 26, 2016)

Yes, the whole practice of the Dunedain, especially the Arnorians, to only marry their own and keep the Numenorean blood pure was in itself a practice that would have related people intermarrying after a few generations. As their numbers dwindled, it had to be near impossible not to have it happen, especially with some if the family lines ending through death in battle and such, making the available gene pool even smaller.


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## Persephone (Dec 26, 2016)

Greymantle said:


> There were 6,460 years between the lives of Elros and Aragorn. That's approximately 22 generations in the blood of Numenor, but closer to 92 generations by the reckoning of normal Men. This would make Arwen something like Aragorn's great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-
> great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-cousin. Puh-leese.




I'm sorry, but... LOL! True, though.


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