# Ugly Maia. . .Why couldn't Sauron take on a fair form?



## HLGStrider (Jun 30, 2003)

After his disembodiedment, Sauron was said to still be alive but never again could he take on a fair form. . .

Why not? Why does he have to be ugly now?

I think this disembodiedment was the one when Numenor fell (but I am drawing a blank at the moment and am too lazy to look it up).


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## YayGollum (Jun 30, 2003)

It seemed to me to be that after the Numenor thing, he just wasn't able to look pretty anymore. He still had a body, though.


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## Celebthôl (Jun 30, 2003)

Yes it was, i am also to lazy to post any sort of quote  

Well you heard my view in that other thread ...and i am also to lazy to post that here aswell...


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## HLGStrider (Jun 30, 2003)

But why wasn't he able to look pretty? Was it punishment or is there a "you can only be reincarnated so many times pretty law?"


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## Celebthôl (Jun 30, 2003)

Im stading by my reason, that because of the atrosiouse (sp) act, it was stuck with Men how bad he was (even if they didnt know about what he did), and so he could never appear fair to them, remember he did appear fair to the Elves with all the rings etc...


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## Eriol (Jun 30, 2003)

I think he had a "preferred" form, and he just chose to keep that after Númenor's Downfall (is there such a thing as an Upfall?). In other words, he could have remained handsome, but he'd rather be scary.

Nasty Sauron...

I tried to post a pic in this thread of a beautiful Sauron, a pic which I used in the Guess the pic thread. Interesting enough, the system would not allow me, saying that I had already used the pic in another thread... clever system, this one set up by Beorn 

So I guess you'll have to search that thread to see Pretty Sauron.


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## BlackCaptain (Jun 30, 2003)

Probly a penalty... Like why Melkor wasn't a Vala anymore when he got punished? Those Valar... They dictate all.


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## Ithrynluin (Jul 1, 2003)

> *by Eriol*
> I think he had a "preferred" form, and he just chose to keep that after Númenor's Downfall (is there such a thing as an Upfall?). In other words, he could have remained handsome, but he'd rather be scary.
> 
> Nasty Sauron...



The Akallabeth does say that he 'could never again appear fair to the eyes of Men'... So it was not a preferred form, rather an imposed one...most likely by Iluvatar.

Hypothetically speaking, even if retained the ability to appear fair, was there any need for him to appear fair after the fall of Numenor? His enemies knew who he was now (both Elves and Men) and would never be deceived again. Men of the East and the South worshipped and served him, regardless of how he appeared (though I doubt whether they ever even came into contact with him personally).


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## Eriol (Jul 1, 2003)

Bad wording of mine. What I meant is that he lost the ability to change shape, and so he stuck with his preferred form, that of a Dark Lord. 

Could he have kept a fair form instead? I think so. He was just a spirit leaving Númenor, remember, I don't think he had any restraints then. 

But he sure wouldn't . After all, his Dark Lord form was so much more...

scary. 



(I think the same thing happened with Morgoth, by the way -- when he took the form of a Dark Lord, he would keep it forever, but the diminishment in his power did not take place immediately. He had a small "window of opportunity" to change forms -- he just didn't. I don't think Ilúvatar forced these guys to be scary -- they liked it. Just as the Balrogs never changed shape after entering Arda, that I know of.)


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## Ithrynluin (Jul 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Eriol _
> *Bad wording of mine. What I meant is that he lost the ability to change shape, and so he stuck with his preferred form, that of a Dark Lord.
> 
> Could he have kept a fair form instead? I think so. He was just a spirit leaving Númenor, remember, I don't think he had any restraints then.
> *



Yes he was just a spirit leaving Numenor then, but a spirit that was somehow rendered incapable of ever assuming a fair form.

Sauron could not take a fair form anymore. The Akallabeth states it pretty clearly, without any ambiguity.


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## Eriol (Jul 1, 2003)

> But Sauron was not of mortal flesh, and though he was robbed now of *that shape in which he had wrought so great an evil*, so that he could never again appear fair to the eyes of Men...



He was robbed of that particular shape.



> ... and dwelt there, dark and silent, *until he wrought himself a new guise*, an image of malice and hatred made visible; and the Eye of Sauron the Terrible few could endure



And then he wrought himself a new guise.

Could he have done this guise in another shape? If he had chosen a fair guise, I bet the writer of the Akallabêth (which is not Ilúvatar ) would have amended the first quote.

The point is -- what happened, happened, that's sure. After the Downfall Sauron could not change shapes anymore, so whatever his first shape was after the said Downfall, it would remain so forever. 

Was it a choice of Sauron to create a terrible guise, or was he forced to do it? I think it was his choice. That's the only thing I am saying here.

And I do think that there is ambiguity, if you don't see that. For it is clear to me that this interpretation of mine is very possible.

EDIT: Since I came home to lunch, I could peruse Morgoth's Ring for some clues about this. And I found... nothing . (But it was a very quick perusing, and I've only read this book once).

The problem with the "punishment by Ilúvatar" theory is that this was not a pattern observed in any other of the "bad guys", most especially Morgoth. When Morgoth lost the ability to change shape, it was not a result of any direct punishment, but rather a result of his squandering his power over too many things. Not even Morgoth was directly punished by Ilúvatar -- why would Sauron be?

I think the same happened with Sauron. He survived the Akallabêth, but he was weakened, since he had to use a great deal of his power to do so (not to mention carrying the Ring with him). And when he built his new shape, he was _surprised_ to find out that he was stuck with it, just as Morgoth was surprised to realize that he was almost weaker than Manwë when Utumno was overthrown. There was no independent force or punishment involved -- as I see it.

The theory I am defending says simply that the lack of shape-shifting ability was a result of Sauron's weakening, and only of that, without any direct intervention of Eru.

I don't see how this theory contradicts the Akallabêth.


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## Beorn (Jul 1, 2003)

Hrmm...doesn't this belong in The Silmarillion?  



> clever system, this one set up by Beorn


...actually, it's part of the software....



> But Ar-Pharazôn was not yet deceived, and it came into his mind that, for the better keeping of Sauron and of his oaths of fealty, he should be brought to Númenor, there to dwell as a hostage for himself and all his servants in Middle-earth. to this Sauron assented as one constrained, yet in his secret thought he received it gladly, for it chimed indeed with his desire. And Sauron passed over the sea and looked upon the land of Númenor, and on the city of Armenelos in the days of its glory, and he was astounded; but his heart within was filled the more with envy and hate.
> Yet such was the cunning of his mind and mouth, and the strength of his hidden will, that ere three years had passed he had become closest to the secret counsels of the King; for flattery sweet as honey was ever on his tongue, and knowledge he had of many things yet unrevealed to Men. And seeing the favour that he had of their lord all the councillors began to fawn upon him, save one alone, Amandil lord of Andúnië. Then slowly a change come over the land, and the hearts of the Elf-friends were sorely troubled, and many fell away out of fear; and although those that remained still called themselves the Faithful, their enemies named them rebels. For now, having the ears of men, Sauron with many arguments gainsaid all that the Valar had taught; and he bade men think that in the world, in the east and even in the west, there lay yet many seas and many lands fro their winning, wherein was wealth uncounted. And still, if they should at the last come to the end of those lands and seas, beyond all lay the Ancient Darkness. 'And out of it the world was made. For Darkness alone is worshipful, and the Lord thereof may yet make other worlds to be gifts to those that serve him, so that the increase of their power shall find no end.'
> And Ar-Pharazôn said: 'Who is the Lord of the Darkness?'
> Then behind locked doors Sauron spoke to the King, and he lied saying; 'It is he whose name is not now spoken; for the Valar have deceived you concerning him, putting forward the name of Eru, a phantom devised in the folly of their hearts, seeking to enchain Men in servitude to themselves. For they are the Oracle of this Eru, which speaks only what they will. But he that is their master shall yet prevail, and he will deliver you from this phantom; and his name is Melkor, Lord of all, Giver of Freedom, and he shall make you stronger than they.'
> Then Ar-Pharazôn the King turned back to the worship of the Dark, and of Melkor the Lord thereof, at first in secret, but ere long openly and in the face of his people; and they for the most part followed him. Yet there dwelt still a remnant of the Faithful, as has been told, at Rómenna and in the country near, and other few there were here and there in the land. The chief among them, to whom they looked for leading and courage in evil days, was Amandil, councillor of the King, and his son Elendil, whose sons were Isildur and Anárion, then young men by the reckoning of Númenor. Amandil and Elendil were great ship-captains; and they were of the line of Elros Tar-Minyatur, thought not of the ruling house to whom belonged the crown and the throne in the city of Armenelos. In the days of their youth together Amandil had been dear to Pharazôn, and thought he was of the Elf-friends he remained in his council until the coming of Sauron. Now he was dismissed, for Sauron hated him above all others in Númenor. But he was so noble, and had been so mighty a captain of the sea, that he was still held in honour by many of the people, and neither the King not Sauron dared to lay hands on him as yet.



I think that since Sauron appeared as such a wise, and powerful "councillor", that he also appeared (not physically, but in terms of his persona) _fair_.

I don't think that fair is being used as a physical trait, but to describe the personality of Sauron, who after 'could never again appear fair to the eyes of Men.'


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## Arvedui (Jul 1, 2003)

I have always understood this the same way as Eriol describes concerning Morgoth. Both of them some sort of used some of their energy every time they changed form, so that in the end, they didn't have any 'fair forms' left, only the ugly one.

I think I have read something along these lines, but I can't remember where...


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## Ithrynluin (Jul 1, 2003)

*In response to Eriol*

It IS possible that after his body being destroyed in the Downfall, Sauron had the choice to appear fair ever after, or to appear not so fair ( ) ever after... But I prefer to see it as a punishment of sorts - he had a few chances to reform and turn back to good, and he refused them. Now Iluvatar, or whoever has imposed this upon Sauron, will make sure that he'll never be able to fool the good peoples, at least as far as _appearing_ fair goes. Maybe this was a restriction upon all the Ainur who entered Arda, and when they did evil and failed to reform after a few times, they would be stuck in an ugly, monstrous, menacing form forever (not that desirable really).


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## HLGStrider (Jul 3, 2003)

I like to think of it as a punishment or some result of an accident, but it just seems a funny punishment.


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## YayGollum (Jul 3, 2003)

What evidence do people have that it could be some kind of crazy punishment? No, it makes all kinds of sense for the guy to not be able to look pretty anymore just because Mel lost some creepy powers after a while, too.


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## HLGStrider (Jul 5, 2003)

I always assumed it was something that had physically happened to him, physicall harmed or weakened him. I never quite knew what gave me this impression or how it had happened, but it felt very much as if the destruction had, for lack of a better word, maimed him.


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## YayGollum (Jul 5, 2003)

Well, of course it maimed him. Am I a crazy person for believing that he lost his body? Even if he's a really big and scary and powerful type, that had to hurt. He grew another body. That one had less creepy and unfair powerses. That's like somebody losing their sight for some crazy reason. They're still nice and healthy and everything. They just lost some crazy ability. I don't see how either of those things could be thought of as punishments.


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## HLGStrider (Jul 6, 2003)

The thing is, I don't see any backing for this theory. 

Is there any other cases of Maiar coming back in an uglier form or a different form after being disembodied?


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## Eriol (Jul 6, 2003)

I think Ainur (including Maiar) could pretty much choose any kind of body in th beginning. The bad guys were not really ugly; they were terrifying and imposing. They liked it that way. A Balrog is not merely ugly -- it strikes fear into everybody around him (remember the reaction of the people looking at him in Moria; the arrow drops from Legolas' bow, Gimli's axe falls to the ground). 

I don't think any of the bad guys see this as a punishment, in any way -- they delight in striking fear. They chose these forms freely. What is surprising to them (I think) is the diminishment that forces them to stay in these bodies forever -- the attachment that they develop with their bodies. 

Sauron was probably very pleased with his final form.


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## Malbeth (Jul 6, 2003)

> Sauron was probably very pleased with his final form



Indeed yes... but I don't think he was at all pleased to not be able to change it according to his desires... I think you can call it "punishment" in the same way that a burned hand is "punishment" for sticking your hand into the fire, i.e an undesirable but innevitable result of one's actions.


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## YayGollum (Jul 6, 2003)

Makes all kinds of sense to me. I just don't get why anyone would feel like calling it a punishment from Eru or something. Craziness. oh well. Anyways, it's not that Sauron showed up with an ugly or scary looking body. It is that he found out that he lost the ability to look pretty. Even with the One Ring to bring him back after losing his body, he, okay, was maimed. No more ability to look pretty. sorry about that. The Sil. says that Mel became less powerful. Sauron did that, too. What's so strange about that?


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## HLGStrider (Jul 10, 2003)

I see that as possible,

but wasn't Melkor's diminishment a punishment of sorts? It was definitely Valar/Eru inflicted.


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## YayGollum (Jul 10, 2003)

I don't remember reading that. If that was written somewhere, why haven't you already tossed a quote about it over here? I had a good example for why he lost creepy powerses, but it's from Star Wars. oh well.


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## HLGStrider (Jul 11, 2003)

I am not very Silmarilion competant, to tell you the truth. I don't post much in this forum. 

I've been meaning to reread it, but I just like the Lord of the Rings part a lot better.


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## YayGollum (Jul 11, 2003)

Uh, huh. *looks around for the The Sil. experts* I know what I'm talking about. The Sil. never said that Mel lost creepy powerses because he was being punished. It never actually spelled things out like ---> Mel lost his creepy powerses because...pleh. oh well. Since it didn't spell things out, you made this thread because nothing was an achingly sure thing for it to be an obvious example for what probably happened to Sauron. Got it. I say ---> Mel and Sauron lost creepy powerses because they got hurt. Or something like that. Even if they're really just messed up spirits, they can still get hurt. Mel got messed with a few times. People should expect him to always come back just as big and scary? I wouldn't think so. Besides, I see no examples of other Valar types getting hurt. There's no way to know that it was a punishment or if they're all like that.


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## HLGStrider (Jul 12, 2003)

Actually, I wasn't the one to bring Melkor up. I even started this in the Lord of the Ring's section. . .which I shouldn't have. It does go here.

Sauron wasn't a Vala, though. He was a Maia. Gandalf came back pretty. I don't know of any other come-backers. . .


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## YayGollum (Jul 12, 2003)

Wasn't I the one who brought Mel up? I forget. oh well. Sauron and Mel and the evil torturer Gandalf were all Ainur types. Same race. Maiar and Valar type things are just different levels of the same thing. Anyways, I'd say that the evil torturer Gandalf had a special deal with that Eru guy. Sauron came back because of crazy magic he came up with. Who's magic do you think might be better? Sauron's or Eru's?


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## HLGStrider (Jul 13, 2003)

Yes, about the Ainur-Valar-Mayar thing, but there is a steep difference in power. It would seem that would make a difference of some sort in practice.

That is indeed a plausible theory, and I think I'll back it, if only because I think it would be a silly punishment, but at least some of them tend to think it is a punishment. ..


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## YayGollum (Jul 13, 2003)

*eyes dart around with all kinds of wariness* Who's them? *relaxes* oh well. Got it. Steep difference in power. Not a huge deal. They're still the same thing, so they still have the same bodily functions (or should I call them spiritual, since that's all the Ainur types really are?).


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