# Yule-tide in Eriador - Speculation



## Valandil (Nov 5, 2004)

Just fifty days until Christmas!

Since one of Tolkien's purported purposes was to create a mythology for England, I wonder if his inclusion of a "Yule" season in the calendars of the Shire and Arnor represents the start of an attempt to explain the origins of the (pre-Christian) Christmas traditions of Northern Europe.

In Appendix B, I believe he only mentions the "Yule" as part of the Shire calendar. Yule 1 is the last day of each calendar year, and Yule 2 is the first day of the next calendar year. In "Peoples of Middle Earth" this is also the custom in Arnor (but I think there was a slightly different custom on the calendar in Gondor - maybe the early-mid winter celebration is more needful where the winters are harsh). Also - he says there that the Yule season extended to the week before and the week after. (Uh - I think I got those details right - but it's been a couple months since I read those passages.)

So - now that we're close to the EE release of ROTK, and just 50 days from Christmas, I'm already thinking Christmassy thoughts - and can't help a Middle-earth overlap.  

I envision maybe big family gatherings for the Northern Dunedain - as well as opportunities for all the unmarried young folk to get acquainted. Maybe a nice warm fire, with a Yule Log, maybe the use of an Evergreen Tree (lighted?), decorations of holly & ivy, maybe mistletoe   ... heck, maybe even some traveling minstrel elves (Gildor & Co.?) joined the festivities, dressed in bright red & green... feasting, singing, gift-giving, sleigh rides, romance (Oh - and snowball fights!!)... whatever would create memories to help you get through the next 2-3 months of a northern winter without central heating, humidifiers, modern insulation, etc.

So... anyone else want to add to my vision of Yule-tide in early/mid third age Arnor and associated areas??? Especially interested in input from our Euro-friends, who might be more familiar with the actual origins of some of these things. I imagine that even the customs we imported or brought here with us are practiced differently than they are back in Europe...


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## e.Blackstar (Nov 5, 2004)

That sounds great. Although..(Spirit, can you help me on this one?) I think that Yule was originally a Wicca/witch holiday. jfyi


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## Eledhwen (Nov 6, 2004)

*Re: Yule- a definition*

Yule comes from the Old English Gëol, or Gëola, which may be from the Norse Jól - a heathen festival lasting twelve days. If the word came with the Norse invaders, then it is unlikely to be the original Druidic name of any midwinter festival. 

The Welsh word for Christmas is Nadolig; and Welsh is the closest language we have to the ancient Brythonic languages spoken before the Roman, Saxon and Norse invasions. 'Nad' has connotations with crying out, or braying, and also hindering; and 'olig' often matches the 'olic' of modern English, that denotes being of a group or type. Draw your own conclusions, but I don't think the ancient Wiccans would have recognised the word 'Yule', unless the linguists are totally out in their guesses.

Better to just accept the word as Tolkein described it - a Hobbitfest.


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## Walter (Nov 8, 2004)

*Re: Yule-tide in Eriador - More Speculation and - Maybe - a Little Truth...*

In the Encyclopaedia Britannica we learn this about the origin of Christmas:


> (from Old English Cristes maesse, “Christ's mass”), Christian festival celebrated on December 25, commemorating the birth of Jesus Christ. It is also a popular secular holiday.
> 
> According to a Roman almanac, the Christian festival of Christmas was celebrated in Rome by AD 336. In the eastern part of the Roman Empire, however, a festival on January 6 commemorated the manifestation of God in both the birth and the baptism of Jesus, except in Jerusalem, where only the birth was celebrated. During the 4th century the celebration of Christ's birth on December 25 was gradually adopted by most Eastern churches. In Jerusalem, opposition to Christmas lasted longer, but it was subsequently accepted. In the Armenian Church, a Christmas on December 25 was never accepted; Christ's birth is celebrated on January 6. After Christmas was established in the East, the baptism of Jesus was celebrated on Epiphany, January 6. In the West, however, Epiphany was the day on which the visit of the Magi to the infant Jesus was celebrated.
> 
> ...



But Tolkien, it seems, had something different in mind, as we can gather from his commentary in appendix D of _LotR_ and – even more so – from his comments in his _Guide to the Names in The Lord of the Rings_:



> Yule. The midwinter counterpart of Lithe. It only occurs in The Lord of the Rings in Appendix D, and 'Midwinter' only occurs once during the main narrative. The midwinter festival was not an Elvish custom, and so would not have been celebrated in Rivendell. The fellowship, however, left on December 25, which had then no significance, since the Yule, or its equivalent, was then the last day of the year and the first of the next year. But December 25 (setting out) and March 25 (accomplishment of the quest) were intentionally chosen by me.
> In translation, Yule should like Lithe be treated as an alien word not generally current in the Common Speech. It should therefore be retained, though with a spelling suitable to the language of translation: so for example in Danish or German spelt Jule. Yule is found in modern English (mostly as a literary archaism), but this is an accident, and cannot be taken to imply that a similar or related word was also found in the Common Speech at that time: the hobbit calendar differed throughout from the official Common Speech calendars. It may, however, be supposed that a form of the same word had been used by the Northmen who came to form a large part of the population of Gondor (III 328), and was later in use in Rohan, so that some word like Yule was well known in Gondor as a 'northern name' for the midwinter festival; somewhat like the appearance in modern German of Jul (as a loan from the North?), in such words as Julblock 'Yule-log' and Julklapp (as in Swedish and similarly in Danish). In Scandinavia, of course Jule would be well understood.
> 
> J.R.R. Tolkien – Notes on Nomenclature



Thus, it seems, Tolkien with his emphasis on the summer- and winter-solstice was alluding to older heathen – or maybe better: Pagan – customs. James G. Frazer provides us with an account of the customs regarding the Yule-log in his great epos _The Golden Bough _. But this account still – IMO – doesn't even come close to the very roots of this custom. Aside from the obvious impression a solstice must have made on ancient peoples as soon as they had learned to observe - and later predict – movement of the heavenly bodies, these events were soon "connected" to other events of great – albeit metaphorical - importance.

Especially the winter-solstice was of great importance. Nature "dies" about the time of the winter-solstice, but in order to ensure the "re-birth" of nature next spring, various sorts of "magic" have been devised of. Metaphorically – as can be gathered from Frazer's as lengthy as thorough elaborations in his 12 volume 1906-15 edition of _The Golden Bough _, or from some of Joseph Campbell's accounts in his 4 volume _The Masks of God_ – this "death" of nature was seen as the death of a divine being (like e.g. the Corn-god) and by means of "Homoeopathic Magic" – as Frazer calls it – the "Barbarians" tried to ensure the "rebirth" of nature – in other words: hopefully ample fertility of the ground throughout the next year - by means of a self-sacrifice of the king. 

From Robert Graves' _Greek Mythology_ we learn, that these seemingly strange habits were still extant at the threshold to the take-over of the patrilinear and semi-nomadic Indo-European immigrants of the thitherto matrilinear Pelasgian inhabitants in early Greece, the – Indo-European - king had to sacrifice himself (more or less voluntarily) each year at the winter-solstice and the – Pelasgian - queen (representing the Great Goddess) chose anotherone as king for a year. 

Since the details of these customs seem to have been rather "cruel", the Indo-European kings probably never were quite happy with these proceedings so that later-on (when they had a little more saying) the self-sacrifice customs were "delayed" so that the king had to sacrifice himself only each "great year" (104 moons; when the winter-solstice met the full moon) until eventually the kings – for the most obvious reasons – ceased sacrificing themselves, but rather made an offering of a "scapegoat" in form of someone else (a sub-altern representative of the king, or in some cultures someone else established as a king for a very brief period) or of animals. 

Our Christmas tree probably is still an - albeit very remote - remnant of these cruel habits and the birth of Christ at exactly that time, of course, has also pagan roots, since in a few cultures the death of the "old king" often went hand in hand with the inauguration of the "young king".

----
Addendum:

In _The White Goddess_ Robert Graves offers a few more possible interpretations (p. 283f) and so does Joseph Campbell throughout _The Masks of God_...


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## Walter (Nov 8, 2004)

In the Encyclopaedia Britannica we learn this about the origin of Christmas:


> (from Old English Cristes maesse, “Christ's mass”), Christian festival celebrated on December 25, commemorating the birth of Jesus Christ. It is also a popular secular holiday.
> 
> According to a Roman almanac, the Christian festival of Christmas was celebrated in Rome by AD 336. In the eastern part of the Roman Empire, however, a festival on January 6 commemorated the manifestation of God in both the birth and the baptism of Jesus, except in Jerusalem, where only the birth was celebrated. During the 4th century the celebration of Christ's birth on December 25 was gradually adopted by most Eastern churches. In Jerusalem, opposition to Christmas lasted longer, but it was subsequently accepted. In the Armenian Church, a Christmas on December 25 was never accepted; Christ's birth is celebrated on January 6. After Christmas was established in the East, the baptism of Jesus was celebrated on Epiphany, January 6. In the West, however, Epiphany was the day on which the visit of the Magi to the infant Jesus was celebrated.
> 
> ...



But Tolkien, it seems, had something different in mind, as we can gather from his commentary in appendix D of _LotR_ and – even more so – from his comments in his _Guide to the Names in The Lord of the Rings_:



> Yule. The midwinter counterpart of Lithe. It only occurs in The Lord of the Rings in Appendix D, and 'Midwinter' only occurs once during the main narrative. The midwinter festival was not an Elvish custom, and so would not have been celebrated in Rivendell. The fellowship, however, left on December 25, which had then no significance, since the Yule, or its equivalent, was then the last day of the year and the first of the next year. But December 25 (setting out) and March 25 (accomplishment of the quest) were intentionally chosen by me.
> In translation, Yule should like Lithe be treated as an alien word not generally current in the Common Speech. It should therefore be retained, though with a spelling suitable to the language of translation: so for example in Danish or German spelt Jule. Yule is found in modern English (mostly as a literary archaism), but this is an accident, and cannot be taken to imply that a similar or related word was also found in the Common Speech at that time: the hobbit calendar differed throughout from the official Common Speech calendars. It may, however, be supposed that a form of the same word had been used by the Northmen who came to form a large part of the population of Gondor (III 328), and was later in use in Rohan, so that some word like Yule was well known in Gondor as a 'northern name' for the midwinter festival; somewhat like the appearance in modern German of Jul (as a loan from the North?), in such words as Julblock 'Yule-log' and Julklapp (as in Swedish and similarly in Danish). In Scandinavia, of course Jule would be well understood.
> 
> J.R.R. Tolkien – Notes on Nomenclature



Thus, it seems, Tolkien with his emphasis on the summer- and winter-solstice was alluding to older heathen – or maybe better: Pagan – customs. James G. Frazer provides us with an account of the customs regarding the Yule-log in his great epos _The Golden Bough _. 

But this account still – IMO – doesn't even come close to the very roots of this custom. Aside from the obvious impression a solstice must have made on ancient peoples as soon as they had learned to observe - and later predict – movement of the heavenly bodies, these events were soon "connected" to other events of great – albeit metaphorical - importance.

Especially the winter-solstice was of great importance to ancient peoples. Nature was considered to "die" about the time of the winter-solstice, but in order to ensure the "re-birth" of nature next spring, various sorts of "magic" have been devised of. Metaphorically – as can be gathered from Frazer's as lengthy as thorough elaborations in his 12 volume 1906-15 edition of _The Golden Bough _, or from some of Joseph Campbell's accounts in his 4 volume _The Masks of God_ – this "death" of nature was seen as the death of a divine being (like e.g. the Corn-god) and by means of "Homoeopathic Magic" – as Frazer calls it – the "Barbarians" tried to ensure the "rebirth" of nature – in other words: hopefully ample fertility of the ground throughout the next year - by means of a self-sacrifice of the king. 

From Robert Graves' _Greek Mythology_ we learn, that these seemingly strange habits were still extant at the threshold to the take-over of the patrilinear and semi-nomadic Indo-European immigrants of the thitherto matrilinear Pelasgian inhabitants in early Greece. The – Indo-European - king had to sacrifice himself (more or less voluntarily) each year at the winter-solstice and the – Pelasgian - queen (representing the Great Goddess) chose anotherone as king for another year. 

Since the details of these customs seem to have been rather "cruel", the Indo-European kings probably never were quite happy with these proceedings so that later-on (when they had a little more saying) the self-sacrifice customs were "delayed" so that the king had to sacrifice himself only each "great year" (104 moons; when the winter-solstice met the full moon) until eventually the kings – for the most obvious reasons – ceased sacrificing themselves, but rather made an "offering" of someone else (a sub-altern representative of the king, or in some cultures someone else established as a king for a very brief period) or - later-on of animals (cf. also Frazers elaborations on he "scapegoat"). 

Our Christmas tree probably is still an - albeit very remote - remnant of these ancient and cruel habits and the celebration of the birth of Christ at the time of the winter-solstice, of course, has also pagan roots (just like many other Christian "holy-days"), since in a few cultures the death of the "old king" often went hand in hand with the inauguration of the "young king".

----
Addendum:

In _The White Goddess_ Robert Graves offers a few more possible interpretations (p. 283f) and so does Joseph Campbell throughout _The Masks of God_...


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## Eledhwen (Nov 10, 2004)

Wot a lot of info, Walter! I never knew all that about king sacrifice. No need for divorce then? Reminds me of bees. Mithraism seems the most likely root of Dec. 25th in Britain; the remains of a temple of Mithra has been discovered in London - the local hub of the Roman empire.

I prefer evergreens in my home at Yuletide; holly and ivy, rather than the tinsel and glitter bedecking the High street. shops. I had hoped to have an open fire going this Christmas too, but some idiot (previous occupant) cemented a TV aerial into the chimney pot, which really needs good weather and a good builder to fix. I only discovered it last week when we had the old aerial replaced with a digital one.

If anyone finds out anything else about Hobbit Yuletide, let's be having it! These customs need 'reviving'!


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## Walter (Nov 10, 2004)

*Off Topic Excurse*

The abovementioned _"birthday of the unconquered sun" (natalis solis invicti)_ as the pagan festival preceding Christmas, most probably has got to do with the long "struggle" between the patriarchally organized, patrilinear Proto-IndoEuropean tribes (represented by a sun-deity) and the matriarchally organized matrilinear "Old European (a term introduced by Marija Gimbutas)" tribes (represented by a moon-deity) who were already settling in the areas invaded by the Proto-IndoEuropeans.

Most European mythologies (e.g. Greek and Germanic) still contain many traces of this "struggle" (as it has been pointed out by many authors like Kerényi, Hermann or Graves) and certain neolithic pagan monuments, like Stonehenge at the time of the solstice, provide an impressive glimpse of what can be interpreted as attempts of "re-conciliation" of these solar and lunar deities...


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## Eledhwen (Nov 10, 2004)

Recent investigations at Stonehenge reveal that the stones framed the full moon spectacularly once a month, while only calendaring the sun once a year. Speculation is abroad that the monument might have been designed to elevate moon worship over that of the sun; but of course it can be interpreted both ways, and as a monument to the interplay of the two, it is probably unrivalled.

I personally think the Dwarves built it - it's their sort of quest, after all, dragging stones from miles away as there weren't any decent ones handy. Maybe it was to celebrate Durin's day.


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## Walter (Nov 10, 2004)

Eledhwen said:


> No need for divorce then? Reminds me of bees. Mithraism seems the most likely root of Dec. 25th in Britain; the remains of a temple of Mithra has been discovered in London - the local hub of the Roman empire.


No, divorce was not an option for the king, it seems. Rumor says he was torn and/or cut into pieces by the priestesses and the remains have been spread over the fields (just to ensure fertility of the ground, of course)...

Persian Mithra and Indian Mitra, I think, would indeed represent such a Proto-IndoEuropean sun-deity as mentioned above...



Eledhwen said:


> Recent investigations at Stonehenge reveal that the stones framed the full moon spectacularly once a month, while only calendaring the sun once a year. Speculation is abroad that the monument might have been designed to elevate moon worship over that of the sun; but of course it can be interpreted both ways, and as a monument to the interplay of the two, it is probably unrivalled.



On a TV documention I have recently seen such a demonstration, where at a Great Year (when the full moon and the solstice coincide) at the solstice the sun before sunset shines through the lower frame and a little later the full moon shines through the upper frame of the western door (IIRC)...



> I personally think the Dwarves built it - it's their sort of quest, after all, dragging stones from miles away as there weren't any decent ones handy. Maybe it was to celebrate Durin's day.


Sure, always the small ones dragging the heaviest stones... 

Nah, the dwarves may have built it, but I think the stones were already there. Probably those were the remains of the very first football (not soccer) match - Windover Hill vs. Firle Beacon (_eald enta geweorc_) - which had gone astray....


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## Eledhwen (Nov 11, 2004)

Walter said:


> Probably [Stonehenge was] the remains of the very first football (not soccer) match - Windover Hill vs. Firle Beacon (_eald enta geweorc_) - which had gone astray....


That was the trouble with those neolithics - no crowd control!



> Rumor says he was torn and/or cut into pieces by the priestesses and the remains have been spread over the fields (just to ensure fertility of the ground, of course)...


The original blood and bone fertiliser! The scary thing is, it probably worked; though it took them a while to realise they didn't always have to use the queen's husband. I suppose research and development techniques were in their infancy then.


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## Walter (Nov 11, 2004)

Eledhwen said:


> That was the trouble with those neolithics - no crowd control!


Luckily there's only one reported casualty 



> The original blood and bone fertiliser! The scary thing is, it probably worked; though it took them a while to realise they didn't always have to use the queen's husband. I suppose research and development techniques were in their infancy then.


Yes, as Frazer suspects the order of appearance was magic>religion>science, all with the same purpose: to explain the - apparently wonderful - world we live in and our own role in it (and, to some degree, have some influence in the process) 

Back to Yule-tide and Customs before we get off-topic...


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## Eledhwen (Nov 11, 2004)

Walter said:


> Luckily there's only one reported casualty


 Yowch! There were later casualties too! Have you heard of the barber stone at Avebury?


> Back to Yule-tide and Customs before we get off-topic...


Spoilsport!


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## Barliman Butterbur (Nov 18, 2004)

Valandil said:


> ... just 50 days from Christmas, I'm already thinking Christmassy thoughts - and can't help a Middle-earth overlap.  ...anyone else want to add to my vision of Yule-tide in early/mid third age Arnor and associated areas???



*A holiday note* to travellers going through Bree: we'll be celebrating Yule this season with all the standard Prancing Pony fare (plus holly/ivy festooning and a roaring fire in the common room), plus mulled cider, egg nog, pumpkin pie and various fruit pies, Yule cookies and Yule goose with plenty of dressing and gravy, rum-soaked fruitcake — and this season a new recipe that I got from a dwarf staying the weekend at the Pony — something called "potato pancakes!" We tried them, and they're great! We can't serve enough of them in the common room, everyone is clamoring for them! In case you can't get to Bree, here's the recipe:

2 cups peeled and shredded potatoes; 1 tablespoon grated onion; 3 eggs, beaten; 2 tablespoons all-purpose flour; 1 1/2 teaspoons salt (coursely-ground black pepper to taste optional); 1/2 cup peanut oil.

Place the potatoes in a cheesecloth and wring, extracting as much moisture as possible (or push them against a sieve or colander). In a medium bowl stir the potatoes, onion, eggs, flour and salt together. In a large heavy-bottomed skillet over medium-high heat, heat the oil until hot. Place large spoonfuls of the potato mixture into the hot oil, pressing down on them to form 1/4 to 1/2 inch thick patties. Brown on one side, turn and brown on the other. Let drain on paper towels. Serve hot, topped with apple sauce, sour cream and/or jelly in any combination!

I have no doubt the news of this new dish will be spreading like wildfire out from Bree to the Shire, Dale, Gondor, and everywhere else!

Barley


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## Valandil (Nov 18, 2004)

Barliman Butterbur said:


> *A holiday note* to travellers going through Bree: we'll be celebrating Yule this season with all the standard Prancing Pony fare (plus holly/ivy festooning and a roaring fire in the common room), plus mulled cider, egg nog, pumpkin pie and various fruit pies, Yule cookies and Yule goose with plenty of dressing and gravy, rum-soaked fruitcake — and this season a new recipe that I got from a dwarf staying the weekend at the Pony — something called "potato pancakes!" ...



Most DEFINITELY sounds like it's worth the trip down from Annuminas... even in the month of Girithron! Especially if the door posts will be decorated with mistletoe!!  

Is it too late to reserve the 'royal suite'?


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## Barliman Butterbur (Nov 22, 2004)

Valandil said:


> Most DEFINITELY sounds like it's worth the trip down from Annuminas... even in the month of Girithron! Especially if the door posts will be decorated with mistletoe!!
> 
> Is it too late to reserve the 'royal suite'?



We're full up, but for you, I'll give you the Landlord's rooms, and I'll sleep out in the hallway — done it before, I'll do it again!

And yes, we'll have mistletoe over all the doorways, hanging in the middle of the common room, and right at the front entrance. So get your pucker cocked and ready for action before you come in!

Barley


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## Valandil (Nov 22, 2004)

Barliman Butterbur said:


> We're full up, but for you, I'll give you the Landlord's rooms, and I'll sleep out in the hallway — done it before, I'll do it again!
> 
> And yes, we'll have mistletoe over all the doorways, hanging in the middle of the common room, and right at the front entrance. So get your pucker cocked and ready for action before you come in!
> 
> Barley



I hate displacing you (no room at the inn, huh? not even for The King?? ) Wow - maybe I could sleep in the stable??  

Maybe we should do an RPG about this... 'Yule Celebration at the Prancing Pony' or something! Do you want to start it? I only hope the ladies will come...


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## Eledhwen (Nov 22, 2004)

Valandil said:


> I hate displacing you (no room at the inn, huh? not even for The King?? ) Wow - maybe I could sleep in the stable??


_And they laid the babe in a manger because there was no room at the Prancing Pony_ - Well, what did they expect? It was Christmas after all!

ps: I'm glad God's got a sense of humour!


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## Barliman Butterbur (Nov 22, 2004)

Valandil said:


> I hate displacing you (no room at the inn, huh? not even for The King?? ) Wow - maybe I could sleep in the stable??



Nup, sorry, that's for the horses — Kings go in _my_ room! 

Barley


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## Barliman Butterbur (Nov 22, 2004)

Eledhwen said:


> _And they laid the babe in a manger because there was no room at the Prancing Pony_ - Well, what did they expect? It was Christmas after all!
> 
> ps: I'm glad God's got a sense of humour!



Ah but you forget — no Christmas in Middle-earth, only Yule!

Barley


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## Eledhwen (Nov 22, 2004)

Barliman Butterbur said:


> Nup, sorry, that's for the horses — Kings go in _my_ room!
> 
> Barley


It is a well documented fact that Barliman Butterbur wouldn't recognise a king if he turned up at the Pony, ordered a pint and went and sat in the corner smoking a pipe. He is even reported to have refused said king an audience with some of his guests! It's odds on that old Strider spent the odd Yuletide at the Prancing Pony; as from what I recall, the Elves & Co let it pass by unmarked. I expect it was celebrated in Gondor from the IVth age.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Nov 23, 2004)

Eledhwen said:


> It is a well documented fact that Barliman Butterbur wouldn't recognise a king if he turned up at the Pony, ordered a pint and went and sat in the corner smoking a pipe. He is even reported to have refused said king an audience with some of his guests!



Ah, but we are speaking of kings who are _openly recognized_ and well-advertised, not those who traipse around in _mufti!_

Barley


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## Eledhwen (Nov 23, 2004)

Barliman Butterbur said:


> Ah, but we are speaking of kings who are _openly recognized_ and well-advertised, not those who traipse around in _mufti!_
> Barley


Yes, I suppose in those days they didn't reserve the crown and ermine for the State Opening of Parliament; but the signs were there for those who could see them (Eledhwen checks herself as she starts to go off subject).

Does it say anywhere that Hobbits had a Yule Log? It was a big lump of tree taken home and its end shoved into the fire until it was burned up. In these days of central heating it's a log shaped chocolate cake (reminds me of the dragon's tail in Farmer Giles of Ham).


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## Barliman Butterbur (Nov 27, 2004)

Eledhwen said:


> Does it say anywhere that Hobbits had a Yule Log? It was a big lump of tree taken home and its end shoved into the fire until it was burned up. In these days of central heating it's a log shaped chocolate cake (reminds me of the dragon's tail in Farmer Giles of Ham).



All my sources indicate no "Yule Log" per se, but I'm for anything to do with chocolate cake!

Barley


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## Valandil (Dec 21, 2004)

First day of Winter today - which was the time set for the Yule. I don't know though if today would be 'Yule 1' of the Old Year or 'Yule 2' of the New Year, but I tend toward the latter.

HAPPY YULE!!!


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## Barliman Butterbur (Dec 21, 2004)

Valandil said:


> HAPPY YULE!!!



Better come by the Pony for free First-Day-of-Winter beer, bread, cheese and the last of this season's apples — or YULE be sorry!

Barley


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## Eledhwen (Dec 22, 2004)

*Re: Yule-tide in Eriador - 21st Dec*

21st Dec, 21st June: why do some people call midwinter's/midsummer's day the _first_ day of Winter/Summer? It seems contradictory to me.

Anyways, the days are getting longer


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## Valandil (Dec 22, 2004)

*Re: Yule-tide in Eriador - 21st Dec*



Eledhwen said:


> 21st Dec, 21st June: why do some people call midwinter's/midsummer's day the _first_ day of Winter/Summer? It seems contradictory to me.
> 
> Anyways, the days are getting longer



I know what you mean, looking just at the sun. Here in America though, spring is from the Vernal Equinox to the Summer Solstice, summer from the Summer Solstice to the Autumnal Equinox, autumn (also called 'fall' here) is from the Autumnal Equinox to the Winter Solstice and winter from the Winter Solstice to the Vernal Equinox. Is it not so there?

I guess there's sort of a 'lag effect' with heating from the sun (and cooling from it's waning). It certainly gets much colder here a month or two after the winter solstice than it is a month or two before the winter solstice.


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