# Who is the most beautiful woman in Middle-Earth?



## Morgaphry

I'm not sure, they all get, mentioned as the most beautiful at some stage.

Morgaphry

P.S I know this shouldn't be on the FOTR movie page, but this is where all the traffic is.


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## Gil-Galad

If I have to chose from the characters in LOTR I'll chose Lady Eowyn.Arwen and Galadriel are women,but elvenwomen,Goldberry is .....I don't know what......so Eowyn seems to be the one "real" woman.I like her because she is honest with herself and the other people.She doesn't fear to do what she wants even if it would be a crazy thing(to fight with the chief of the Nazguls).


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## Morgaphry

I got a feeling that someone would choose Eowyn. She seemed to me, beautiful but not fairest of all beings.

Morgaphry

P.S Goldberry is Daughter of the River, Which I can only guess means she was born from the River Withywindle.


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## Darth Saruman

I have a suspicision that Galadriel takes this.


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## Rangerdave

> _Originally posted by Darth Saruman _
> *I have a suspicision that Galadriel takes this. *



She gets my vote. 
Galadriel, not Cate Blanchett, that is. No mere human actress (no mater how lovely) can beat the imagination of the male mind.

RD


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## Ithrynluin

Galadriel's beauty left the greatest impression on me.Her hair glimmering with the light of the 2 trees,she's tall and slender....


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## Flame of Anor

I have read the Trilogy and the Sil and I would have to say that Lúthien Tinúviel was more fair and beautiful. Of course she is half Elf and half Maiar. But if we are talking just the Fellowship, then I would have to say Galadriel.

-Flame

P.S. Goldberry was Tom Bombadil's wife or something to that effect. There is some speculation that they are both Maiar or something. Tolkien was very vague when it came to them, mostly Goldberry.


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## Ariana Undomiel

I think that Tolkien intended that Galadriel and Arwen be equally as fair but in different ways. Arwen was the beauty of the evening while her grandmother hosted the beauty of the morning. I am partial to the evening so i chose Arwen. But Galadriel left a stronger impression on my mind.

~ Ariana


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## Gil-Galad

I agree Galadriel and Arwen are beautiful ,really beautiful,but we're talking about "women",not "elvenwomen",aren't we?


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## kaelath

i would have to agree with Ariana Undomiel. i too am partial towards the evening. but also Gil-Galad did have a very good point.


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## Grond

I chose Galadriel because of the many descriptions given by the author. In these, he refers to both Galadriel and Arwen in glowing terms but seems to portray Galadriel with a more regal and stark beauty. I think that Arwen's beauty is real too but that much of her beauty is also due to her bearing.



> _from The Return of the King, The Grey Havens,
> ...and Galadriel smiled upon them. 'Well, Master Samwise,' she said. 'I hear and see that you have used my gift well. The Shire shall now be more than ever blessed and beloved.' Sam bowed, but found nothing to say. *He had forgotten how beautiful the Lady was...*_


_



from The Silmarillion, Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië,. 
...A sister they had Galadriel, *most beautiful of all the house of Finwë*; her hair was lit with gold as though it had caught in a mesh the radiance of Laurelin.

Click to expand...





from The Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age,...
...whereas the Ring of Adamant was in the Land of Lórien where dwelt the Lady Galadriel. A queen she was of the woodland Elves the wife of Celeborn of Doriath, yet she herself was of the Noldor and remembered the Day before days in Valinor, *and she was the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth*. But the Red Ring remained hidden until the end, and none save Elrond and Galadriel and Círdan knew to whom it had been committed...

Click to expand...

Just my two bits._


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## aralairiel

*inward beauty*

as far as the movie goes, i'll have to argree that no human actress will ever be able to compare to the beauty of the elven women, but Cate blanchet is very beautiful, i liked how Galadriel had enough control over herself and gave up the power of the ring, which is a beautiful personality trait, which is more important than any outside beauty.
inward beauty is always more important.


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## Gil-Galad

aralairiel,read the book and then you'll have true imagination of Galdriel beauty.But nobody answered my question........


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## Morgaphry

*Answer to Gil-Galad's question*

We are talking about all women in LoTR (Which isn't many.)
Just personally, I believe that the fairest woman in Middle-Earth is Ioreth of Minas Tirith.

Morgaphry


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## Angbor

Nonsense, Rose Cotton Gamgee is the fairest of all.


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## Grond

> _Originally posted by Gil-Galad _
> *aralairiel,read the book and then you'll have true imagination of Galdriel beauty.But nobody answered my question........ *


This poll offers the following options: 
A) Galadriel
B) Arwen
C) Goldberry
D) Any other

Given the options, it appears that as long as the character is female, she would qualify (even an old Orc-woman...if you know any.)

Woman is apparently posted in error and should read female instead.


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## Eomer Dinmention

My girlfriend haha lol, Oh i don't have one lol. Well if the one that i like now, is the most beautiful girl i've laid eyes on.


Apart from her, Arwen looks pretty hot in the movie, but i would have to go with Galadriel and Lothiriel


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## Gil-Galad

That's right Grond,but nobody changes it.Do you any old female orc?


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## aralairiel

*grond*

you are soo right grond


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## ms Greenleaf

You are all wrong I am the most beautiful


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## Goldberry344

Either me or Legolas.....


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## ms Greenleaf

ouch but legolas def inetly looks like a guy


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## Goldberry344

riiight....


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## Éomond

Arwen was the most beautiful woman in LotR.


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## Confusticated

That was great Goldberry!..hehehe
I tried to make a Gil-Galadriel, but I haven't the skill yet to do it given the picture of Gil-galad that I have.

If by 'woman' female was ment then I say Galadriel, abolutely no question about it.


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## Goldberry344

i know, confusticated.....i think that goldberry is the coolest....personally...


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## ms Greenleaf

You are all wrong I am the most beautiful by that i ment me not my character


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## Grond

> _Originally posted by Goldberry344 _
> *i know, confusticated.....i think that goldberry is the coolest....personally... *


Ironically, Goldberry is the subject of a heated debate in the Guild of Tolkienologists right now. The link to the debate between myself and Ancalagon is going on as I type.

The link to the debate is Was Goldberry a Maia?

Check it out!!


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## Confusticated

> _Originally posted by Grond _
> *Ironically, Goldberry is the subject of a heated debate in the Guild of Tolkienologists right now. The link to the debate between myself and Ancalagon is going on as I type.
> 
> The link to the debate is Was Goldberry a Maia?
> 
> Check it out!!  *



Does anyone other than Grond see irony in that?


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## Diamond Took

I CAN'T BELEIVE I'M THE ONLY ONE TO VOTE *GOLDBERRY, river daughter?!*
hmmm i must be different. unique, even.


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## Ynhockey

Lol, i pick Galadriel but in the movie i think Rosie Cotton looked the best


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## Lady_of_Gondor

My vote would be for Galadriel. I have no quotes to post to show who the author described as more beautiful. It is just the way I felt when I was reading "Lothlorièn." Galadriel seemed to me to be the most beautiful creature that could have ever lived. Not only that, but she seemed to be wiser than most, even wiser than her husband Celeborn. I think that maybe, in a way, I even fell in love with her... Yes.......Galadriel is most beautiful!


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## Ancalagon

That's strange, I don't see my name in the poll! Ancalagon, the most beautiful Dragon to have graced the skies above Middle-Earth? I am asexual, so do I not count?


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## Lantarion

I'd say Galadriel. Arwen is said to have the likeness of Lúthien herself, but I was confused by the movie, in which Galadriel was much more beautiful than Arwen, IMHO. 
And Galadriel was the last surviver of the true Elder Days (alright so was Elrond, but Galadriel was even older), in which time the beauty of the Elves was almost equal to what it was in the Beginning..

By the way, un response to your picture, Galadreil344: ROTFLMAO!!


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## Gil-Galad

Hey Anc.,in fact the post is :"who is the second beautiful woman or dragon after Ancalagon?"


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## Spartan117

Well, in the movie Arwen was , by far, the most beautiful. In the books I think he described Galadriel as the more beautiful.


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## LúthienTinúviel

Well, as far as the ME of the time of the War of the Ring goes, then Galadriel, hands down. As far as all of the history of ME, why then Lúthien Tinúviel, of course. 

So is this supposed to be a "who do you personally feel is the most beautiful?" or "who did Tolkien intend to be the most beautiful?"

My personal opinions happen to coincide with the Big Guy's on this, but I am still wondering.


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## Confusticated

I said before that I choose Galadriel as the most beautiful female in Middle-eath, but I thought I'd throw in my opinion based on the movie since others have. Galadriel it is again, and by far.


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## Mula

Tinúviel, obviously, is the most beautiful.


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## Lantarion

Mula, Lúthien did not live in Middle-Earth as such.. I'm not sure, but perhaps Beleriand was not included in the "Middle-Earth" this poll is dealing with. 
_Mutta ei se mitään!_


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## Mula

Lantarion, yes she did. Check out Silmarillion again, will ya. 

Who else thinks that the portrayal of the Elves in the movie/s isn't very good? I mean, they still look kinda human to me...  Maybe they should be somehow digitally improved...?


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## Gil-Galad

I checked in the Sil,although I know the answer.Luthien didn't live in ME.She lived in Doriath and later lived with Beren in the south-eastern part of Beleriand.


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## Diamond Took

Please, somebody vote for goldberry?


don't make her look like a reject...


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## In Flames

Do not fear Diamond Took, you have my vote for Goldberry. For the books that is.

For the movie i i'd say Rosie or Arwen, i can't really decide.


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## Diamond Took

lol, thanx inflames!!!
idon't know why, but somehow goldberry (in the book ) reminds me of princess fiona from shrek.  

in the movie, i'd say galadriel is the most beautiful, though.


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## Sivien

Who's the most beautiful woman in ME? Me!!!!!! 
Just joking... Personally, I think it's Luthien. Last time I saw Galadriel, she didn't look so good...
The craziest person on the block
Sivien


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## Gil-Galad

Sivien,as Lantarion says and I agree,Luthien doesn't live in Me.She lives in Beleriand,after her returning with Beren she dwelt in "Tol Galen"-The Green Island in the river Adurant in Osiriand.And she is not in the post and it's obviously that the post is about the women who lived during IIIages.


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## gate7ole

Strange question. After all we've never seen any of them 
But judging by Tolkien's descpriptions it must be Luthien


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## Confusticated

None of the actual women (as in human female) stand out as being especially beautiful to me. In fact the only female in LOTR who does is Galadriel.
So that is why I had not answered your question Gil-galad


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## Uminya

Beleriand was part of Middle Earth, so I'm going to say Luthien Tinuviel


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## Gil-Galad

> _Originally posted by Confusticated _
> *None of the actual women (as in human female) stand out as being especially beautiful to me. In fact the only female in LOTR who does is Galadriel.
> So that is why I had not answered your question Gil-galad *



That's right,she is the one among elve.I like her,although I like more Eowyn because he is a "human" female.But I can't understand while all say Luthien.Does she live in III ages?Does she live east from Ered Luin,does she live in Me?She may be the most beautiful female creature ever,but here,we're talking about the most beautiful female creature in IIiages!!!!!!


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## Gil-Galad

> _Originally posted by Confusticated _
> *None of the actual women (as in human female) stand out as being especially beautiful to me. In fact the only female in LOTR who does is Galadriel.
> So that is why I had not answered your question Gil-galad *


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## Wolfshead

Well, when I first read LOTR I wasn't really old enough to be thinking about how hot the characters were  So, my pictures go by the film. A henious crime, I know, but hey, what can you do? So then I'd have to say Arwen Evenstar judging by Liv Tyler...


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## Gil-Galad

Finally,there's a member who voted for female which is in the post /Arwen/!!I can't believe on my eyes!


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## Morgaphry

*Thankyou Gil-Galad*

To all those who voted on Luthien Tinuviel as the most beautiful woman in Middle-Earth. 

I need to place emphasis on the fact about the question:
Who *IS* the most beautiful woman in Middle Earth.

Morgaphry


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## Gil-Galad

wow,it's getting interesting.Two people think that Luthien hasn't got any place in this thread.


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## LúthienTinúviel

*Re: Thankyou Gil-Galad*



> _Originally posted by Morgaphry _
> *To all those who voted on Luthien Tinuviel as the most beautiful woman in Middle-Earth.
> 
> I need to place emphasis on the fact about the question:
> Who IS the most beautiful woman in Middle Earth.
> 
> Morgaphry *



Explain. Are you implying that she doesn't count because she died? If so, that's not a valid argument. She is a fictional character and lives in a fictional world. Fictional events are always spoken of in the present tense, unless you are comparing two instances in a fictional timeline and one occurred before the other on that fictional timeline. If the question was posed thus, for example, then you would be right: Who was the most beautiful woman alive in Middle-earth in the Third Age? But that is not the case, and just because Lúthien died, doesn't exclude her unless there is a specific time period parameter about the question, which as far as I've seen there is not.


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## Gil-Galad

It's obviously that the post is about IIIages.Just see who female characters are listed in the thread.
And something else,as I said Luthien doesn't live in Me.She lived in Beleriand(Doriath),after defeating Morgoth she lives with Beren in "Tol Galen"-The Green Island in the river Adurant in Osiriand.Not in ME.So the post is about women who live in ME.


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## LúthienTinúviel

But Doriath is part of ME. By the time the third age rolled around, it of course was sunk, but nevertheless it was a part of ME, and the question never _specifically_ limited everyone to the Third Age. I mean, if we're going to be picky like that, the word "woman" shouldn't have been used at all to apply to elves or Goldberry, etc. I think this is a valid thread to argue Lúthien's right to the most beautiful, unless the author of the thread wants us to religiously stick to the poll.


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## Gil-Galad

I confess that Luthien is the most bueatiful.But.First the thread was posted in LOTR forum at the beginning.Second all the women who are in the thread are part of the book LOTR,so they're part of IIIages.Third I believe that if the thread starter didn't have in mind only the women from the book,Luthien would be there.
I think thew best way to find out a wau from this argue is to ask the thread starter or the moderator to be more specific about the title of the thread.


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## Aragorn12345

I'd havce to say Arwen cause in the book she's my wife


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## LúthienTinúviel

> _Originally posted by Gil-Galad _
> *I confess that Luthien is the most bueatiful.But.First the thread was posted in LOTR forum at the beginning.Second all the women who are in the thread are part of the book LOTR,so they're part of IIIages.Third I believe that if the thread starter didn't have in mind only the women from the book,Luthien would be there.
> I think thew best way to find out a wau from this argue is to ask the thread starter or the moderator to be more specific about the title of the thread. *



Or just drop the entire thing because it doesn't matter.


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## Wonko The Sane

It's got to be Arwen! I mean...really...if it weren't then Aragorn would hardly deserve her!


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## Aragorn12345

ARWEN'S THE FAIREST NOT ROSIE


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## Gil-Galad

> _Originally posted by LúthienTinúviel _
> *Or just drop the entire thing because it doesn't matter.  *


Ok,I see you want to be the most beautiful in ME.But I saw some scenes from TT,just wait to see Lady Eowyn!


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## Melian Le Fay

Luthien was said to be the faires of all the Children of Iluvatar.
Well, if we cannot count her in, then I say Arwen, since she is said to be "Luthien who came down to Earth once again" (not literaly, of course) That indicates that she WAS the most beautiful... though, I agree with some others that both her and Galadriel were equally beautiful, only in different ways... But, still, I vote for Arwen...there's something in her...maybe her destiny wich makes her dear to me...
And as for Eowyn in TTT.... I don't like her! She's not beautlful!


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## Wonko The Sane

If we're going for the movies here...Then Liv Tyler and Cate Blanchett are both very pretty in different ways, and it all comes down to if you prefer Brunettes or Blondes. I judge female beauty by who I'd rather look like and I'd much rather look like Liv Tyler so Arwen gets my vote...
And in the movies whoever plays Eowyn is NOT attractive, which bothers me because Eowyn was supposed to be very beautiful.
As she is essentially the English Eponine (except she doesn't die) she is my favorite female character from the books.
If we're going for the book beauty then I'd still say that Arwen was the most beautiful. I'd have to agree with Milena in that she was said to be the fairest since Luthien...
And Galadriel's beauty was comparable, but as Gimli said, Arwen was the "Evening" and he prefered the "Dawn." I think a lot of Galadriel's beauty also comes from the immense respect she has amongst people.
But overall, I DO prefer "Evenstar" to the "Dawn" and I'd say Arwen.

I know that Goldberry, (She's also an Elf isn't she?) is also said to be very beautiful as well, but I don't think we read enough about her to find out if she really is that more beautiful than the other two I mentioned.


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## balrog

i would say galadriel, with her response to Frodo offering the ring to her:
in place of a dark lord you would set up a queen,...stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me in despair!"
Now that is downright sexy to a balrog!


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## LúthienTinúviel

Gil-Galad - Oh I *am* the hottest chick in ME. 

But besides me of course...

Per the movies:

Cate Blanchett is the most beautiful actress in all three movies. Next comes Miranda Otto (I can't believe you guys don't think she's beautiful!) and lastly comes Liv Tyler. I'm sorry, but I loathe Liv Tyler. She's vrey beautiful but her acting makes me want to crawl into a hole and die.  

Per the books not counting Lúthien - 

I'd like to say Galadriel, and if the books were written by me, it would be her, but evidence seems to point towards Arwen because she was made in Lúthien's image essentially (*moans over the insult to Lúthien*)


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## Melian Le Fay

I can't believe you think Miranda Otto IS beautiful!!! She's not ugly, taht's for sure, she's pretty, but not beautiful... but, tastes are different, and we respect all of our opinions, right?
As for Arwen being made like Luthien, why do you find it to be an insult? Arwen was Luthien's descendant, and I doubt they looked identical, I think the "quality and quantity" of their beauties was the same, and their similar characters and fates gave them the similar "note"... but I don't think it was anything bad...


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## LúthienTinúviel

Well, I guess arguing about the aesthetics of a person is pretty much futile, since we all have our own separate and generally equally valid opinions on that subject, and the likelihood of any objectivity is nil. But, just to be a little more precise - I don't like Liv Tyler's jaw...it's too...large and padded.  Just an observation... Mirando Otto's face is much more lithe and elegant, if you ask me.

As far as the insult is concerned? Perhaps insult was a wee bit of an exaggeration, but it really does irk me that Arwen is linked to Lúthien. See, I've heard lots of arguments in which people say that you should take Arwen for what she is and not compare her to Lúthien, but that's not a valid point because Tolkien himself compares the two, therefore requiring us to do the same. And Arwen just doesn't measure up. Lúthien went to the pits of hell and back (literally) and then beyond death and back (literally) and then to death again for her love, not to mention taking down Morgoth's court and Sauron singlehandedly, winning the pity of Mandos, who pities none, reclaiming a Silmaril from the crown of Morgoth and bringing her love back from the dead. What did Arwen do? Sat on her butt and sewed a banner. Sure Elrond probably didn't want her riding off to help Aragorn, but neither did Thingol want Lúthien to... She escaped imprisonment and fled to Beren's aid. Arwen did nothing but look pretty and give up her immortality at a key point. She's just not worthy of being compared to Lúthien, IMHO.


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## Lantarion

I think Liv Tyler is pretty, but there's no way I could cal her beautiful! What with the slight buck-teeth, the goggly eyes.. I dunno.


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## Wonko The Sane

I like her lips...
She has very pretty lips...
*sigh*
I wish I could look like Liv Tyler...except without makeup she looks like a horse...
So it's probably a fair tradeoff...


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## Celebthôl

*Lúthien*

It has to be Lúthien Tinúviel coz Mr Tolkien says she woz espcially with the silmaril round her neck


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## Wonko The Sane

We've all agreed that she is not one of the choices...


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## Melian Le Fay

> _Originally posted by LúthienTinúviel _
> *See, I've heard lots of arguments in which people say that you should take Arwen for what she is and not compare her to Lúthien, but that's not a valid point because Tolkien himself compares the two, therefore requiring us to do the same. And Arwen just doesn't measure up. *



I definitely agree with you on the fact that Luthien did great thing indeed, while Arwen did practicaly nothing. But I never got the impression that Tolkien compares the two of them in any other way but physical, and their eventual fate (becoming mortal for the sake of love). As for the physical compare, I don't mind that at all, Arwen was the most beautiful being in her time. Liv Tyler - no mortal woman can be even close to the beauty of Elven women, so I observe her like an actress who did that role. I never imagined Arwen look like Liv...
On the other hand, Luthien could never do many of the things she did (defeating Sauron, enchanting Morgoth) if she wasn't half-Maia... the Maia strin in Arwen's blood was much weaker, so she didn't have any of those powers... 


and wonko - Luthien could be regarded as one of the "others" choices... I don't think this thread is limited only to LOTR... I guess...


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## Gil-Galad

> _Originally posted by Millena _
> *I can't believe you think Miranda Otto IS beautiful!!! *


Yeah she is really very beautiful!!!I like her so much,I'm falling in love....... !!!Lyv.......nah....her face is so white and her voice is so tender.......nah....I don't like her very much.At the same time Kate is really the most beautiful among them.I said once I like her as an actress especially in "The Gift"


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## LúthienTinúviel

> _Originally posted by Gil-Galad _
> *Yeah she is really very beautiful!!!I like her so much,I'm falling in love....... !!!Lyv.......nah....her face is so white and her voice is so tender.......nah....I don't like her very much.At the same time Kate is really the most beautiful among them.I said once I like her as an actress especially in "The Gift" *



Agreed 100%.  Cate is top of every list ever. Then Miranda. And Liv isn't even on my list. 

Millena - I understand what you're saying. I didn't really mean that Tolkien wanted the two of them compared in every way, but by comparing Arwen even a little bit with Lúthien, he is opening the battlefield of comparison.


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## Melian Le Fay

But why bothering comparing them in any way, when Tolkien clearly states all "possible comparison"... ? Why diminishing your enjoying the books for the sake of Arwen being compared with Luthien... I cannot understand you, sorry. If he wrote it that way, that's part of the books you love, and you cannot change that... sorry I'm writing this way, I don't mean to be rude, I just cannot understand you very well...

And as for Cate - the woman is getting more and more beautiful with the years!!! I saw her in "Elisabeth" and just then I realised how she's becoming more and more beautiful...


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## LúthienTinúviel

Millena - Oh, I'm not offended at all.  I know some people get uppity and defensive in debates, but I assure you, if you don't call me orc slime or anything, I shan't get angry or irritated. 

I still don't think I'm explaining well.  What I mean by Tolkien setting up a comparison beyond that of just looks and eventual fate, is that when an author himself compares two characters in any way, just the very fact that he has done that opens the two up for further comparison. It's a literary technique. I wish I could play back my creative writing class for you. My prof could have said it much better than I. Basically, I'm sayign that writers are never careless about anything they write, if they are good, and we all agree that Tolkien was brillo. So by using the literary device of comparison with Lúthien and Arwen, he knew that the two would be compared on multiple levels,a nd he _intended_ it. He may not have explicitly compared them both on all levels, but that is because a good reader leaves most of that work up to the readers.  I think actually that he was making a subtle point. The times of heroism such as happened in the Silmarillion were gone, and now lesser deeds, though still great, were the commin currency. He's making a distinction between the old days and the new.

And as for diminishing my appreciation of the book, it doesn't at all. However, Liv Tyler's performance was the only thing that cast a shadow over the movie for me.


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## Melian Le Fay

Hmmmzzz... I think I understand you now... I liked how you explained that no good writer ever writes things he/she doesn't want to give any importance... those "little" things, not so much connected to the main storyline are the most interesting to interpretate! That's what I liked the most on my literary classes...
But still, somehow, I understood the comparison of Luthien and Arwen in only the way Tolkien "literally" wrote... why did he made her so similar to Luthien? I understood it in a more "epical" way, in a "history repeating" sort of way... Both Aragorn and Arwen were descendants of Luthien and Beren. And the great line of Numenorian kings was spent; if Arwen merried Aragorn, then the two of them would restore this ancient line... Somehow, it seemed like Tolkien closed the circle - it began with Beren and Luthien, and should come together and close with Arwen and Aragorn, their descendants... That's what I call "on the epical level", 'cause it concerns a greater timeline, events beyond one character, one lifetime...
And I agree with you on comparison of the two ages : in the first age, everything seemed more powerfull - the dark lord was a Vala, Elves were very powerful, things were extraordinarily beautiful... or ugly  ...
And in the thired age, everything seemed lessend somehow - the dark lord is a Maia, powers of all beings are much smaller... Yes, you really put it well.
But, if look at it, though evil was "weaker" in the third age, and "the good guys" were weaker as well, then, their deeds, in the meaning of the strength and courage they had to "use" were equal to those done by heroes of the first age. Hmmzz... I'm trying to explain that the more limited you are in powers, the more strength, more work, you have to put in your fight. So, even Sauron was weaker than Morgoth, still, his "weaker" enemies had to put as much strength and work into their fight as their predecesors... OK, I know I sound confused, so if you don't quite understand me, I'll try better...


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## LúthienTinúviel

I think I understand you, and I also think we fundamentally agree. Even though in the 3rd Age both the goodies and baddies were weaker, they each still had to strive to _their own fullest extent_ even if in the end their greatest power was not as great as in past Ages. That's what you're saying, right?


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## Melian Le Fay

Yesss!!!! You understood me completely! Oh, I'm so glad, I have a problem when I write my posts - my mind completely blocks, and I can't express myself the way I want (in english, that is)
OK, here's a Q for you, Luthien:
What does "the fay" mean...? (I noticed that below your name...)


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## Wonko The Sane

It can mean many things. In Middle English it means faith. It's also old French for a fairy or an elf. It can also mean fair, or dark...in different contexts.


----------



## Melian Le Fay

Wow! One word, yet so many meanings linked to Tolkien's world... that's great! 
Oh, and thank you Wonko! Nice having someone to explain English around!!!


----------



## Wonko The Sane

Languages are my passion. I love English literature, and lexicology, and I love studying the differences in the same language between two different cultures.
That's part of why the British are so darn intriguing. 
My grandmother thinks I should become a linguist and translate for the UN.
I want to be a professor. We'll see what happens.


----------



## LúthienTinúviel

Wonko's got it.  Those are indeed all meanings. I also love the word "fey" and "fay" rhymes with it...so...  Also, Tolkien referred to Lúthien as "Lúthien the Fay" in the title of the Lay of Leithian. Cheers!


----------



## Lantarion

Uhh, but 'fey' also means 'maddened, crazy'!


----------



## Wonko The Sane

Right, like in Morgan Le Fey. 

But in that case "fey" also means "dark".

Wee.

Maybe Luthien is trying to tell us something about her mental state?

But Luthien, you said I got it...you didn't say WHICH was correct...I gave MANY definitions....which did you intend?

Most probably "fair" or "fairy", or possibly both at once, is my guess.


----------



## LúthienTinúviel

> _Originally posted by Wonko The Sane _
> *Right, like in Morgan Le Fey.
> 
> But in that case "fey" also means "dark".
> 
> Wee.
> 
> Maybe Luthien is trying to tell us something about her mental state?
> 
> But Luthien, you said I got it...you didn't say WHICH was correct...I gave MANY definitions....which did you intend?
> 
> Most probably "fair" or "fairy", or possibly both at once, is my guess. *



Try all at once.  All those definitions describe me, which is one reason why I love the word so much. it's not often I find a word with a whole slew of definitions, all of which fit me...AND happens to be part of the title of my favourite character ever.


----------



## Melian Le Fay

Exactly what I posted! All those meanings connected to Tolkien's world... And I believe you did mean all the meanings...even "dark"! But that's because Luthien had dark hair... Wait, she did?! 
Here's another word with so many definitions, though, not so appropriate for these threads... And it's not even English... or French...or some other Anglo-saxon-Nordic-German... word. It's Greek, antique Greek - LOGOS.


----------



## Lantarion

According to my Greek dictionary (Lanty = nerd ) it means 
1. Reason
2. Ground
3. Speech
4. Ratio
5. Word


----------



## Wonko The Sane

Yay! Dorks like me!
*hugs all around*
This is the best forum ever!!


----------



## tom_bombadil

What else could i say goldberry my most beautiful wife!


----------



## Melian Le Fay

HURRAY for nerds!!!!!
The most educated ones.


----------



## Gil-Galad

> _Originally posted by Millena _
> *HURRAY for nerds!!!!!
> The most educated ones. *


Hey,where have you been?I promised you to give you some bulgarian lessons?!!!But I haven't seen you since........I don't remember since when.....


----------



## Rogue666666

Just to put this thread back on the subject a little. I would have to say the balrog. Come on. Prove to me that the balrog isnt a female AND THEN I might consider someone else as next most beutifull. I mean, how can you compete with the Balrog? She's got all that passion, just look at her. Obvoiusly she's had a hard time living in a hole all her several thousand year life, and only gets to do something interesting when more dwarves try to come back to their cave after a thousand years or something like that.


----------



## Incánus

Luthien Tinuviel


----------



## Lossengondiel

I think Arwen Evevstar is very beautiful...but I don't like her in the sense that Strider is in love with her...and not me...


~~~Strider 4 ever


----------



## Orodreth

I'd go with Lúthien


----------



## Wonko The Sane

We all know Luthien is the most beautiful...

Tolkien says she is.

What's the point of this thread again?


----------



## Celebthôl

fine after Fox had a go at me for posting for Luthien im gonna go for Arwen coz well she is and because i luuuuuv liv tyler also y did u say she looked like a horse Fox? i thought it was funny but i dont think she does!

Thôl


----------



## Wonko The Sane

I didn't say she looked like a horse.
I love Liv Tyler.
I think she's gorgeous!


----------



## Celebthôl

no silly im sayin u called her and horse and then i said ur name i.e. u called her a horse, Fox
and i agree she is extremily beautful (sp)

Thôl


----------



## Wonko The Sane

Yeah I edited that post...dunno what I was thinking.


----------



## Melian Le Fay

> _Originally posted by Gil-Galad _
> *Hey,where have you been?I promised you to give you some bulgarian lessons?!!!But I haven't seen you since........I don't remember since when..... *




Where have I been?!!?!?! And where have YOU been?!?!!?
Well, I'm alive, but my comp isn't....
but, never mind that, I ready for some Bulgarian!!!! Language, that is.   Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee...........................


----------



## Lossengondiel

I think I already posted my opinion, but after seeing previews and pictures for TTT, I definitely have to say that Eowyn is very pretty.


----------



## Isenho

well in the movie, it was Arwen but in the books, i pictures Goldberry as being the hottest!


----------



## Aragorns_girl00

EOWYN IS THE PRETTIEST!!!!!!! SHE IS AWESOME. I HOPE HER AND ARAGORN HOOK UP IN TROTK!


----------



## Aragorn12345

Aragorn would never hook up with her, he will love Arwen etenrally!!!


----------



## Aragorn12345

> _Originally posted by Aragorn12345 _
> *Aragorn would never hook up with her, he will love Arwen etenrally!!! *



(P.S. I wish when I registered at TTF I had put my screenname as Arwen because Aragorn is such a hunk and all my friends think so too!)


----------



## Malidor

Eowyn.


----------



## Aragorns_girl00

aragorn is a hunk and he's mine, ALL MINE!! j/k. but i would love to see eowyn and him kiss or something in RotK, even though it has nothing 2 do with the book.....


----------



## Lantarion

You have obviously not heard of Lúthien. 
But would you really want PJ (aka the Destroyer of Myth) to change the plot of the books any more than he has??


----------



## *Lady Aragorn*

where's eowyn  ? she has my vote.


----------



## Halasían

I vote Eowyn. I'm not into these immortal women...


----------



## Lady Rían

Gee dear, I thought you might say.... me... 
But since this is not middle-earth that's okay.


----------



## Halasían

Well, I guess I would have to be Huor then???

Of course you are my real beloved Lady Rían!


----------



## Inderjit S

What??? No Eowyn? Who wants boring old Arwen when you can have that saucy shield-maiden?


----------



## elf boy

I said Galadriel but it's almost a tie between her and arwen


----------



## Elbereth

Luthien Tinuviel is the prettiest and fairest that ever was and ever is...that is why so many of the beauties in LOTR are compared to her beauty (ie: Arwen)

I would go on...but I'm not in the mood...so I'll just leave it at that.


----------



## Feanorian

Luthien is definitly the most beautiful and Tolkien points that out


----------



## Inderjit S

Well..Luthien is no Finduilas (IMO)


----------



## Orclord1990

Arewn was butifull in the fellowship and the two toweres!!!SHESSSS HHHOOOOTTTT!!!!!!!


----------



## Wonko The Sane

Yep. Elbe's right. It's Luthien...

But coming in at a close second is Tookish-Girl.


----------



## BlackCaptain

Onclord, you knkow that the movies are mostly innacurate right? And you know Arwen probly looked little like Liv Tyler right? Anyways, I think its Luthien Tinuvel. The daughter of a Maia, counted beautiful even among the Maia, and the King of an entire race of elves would be one foxy lady

*starts singing foxy lady*


----------



## Wonko The Sane

That's Tookish's song.


And I agree. Luthien!


----------



## Inderjit S

I'm willing for Finduilas to be second to Luthien but no one else. So it goes 1. Luthien 2.Finduilas.....


----------



## BlackCaptain

...3. Arwen (just because she was so like to Luthien)... 4. Galadriel...


----------



## baragund

Luthien Tinuviel, hands down. As Elbereth and Feanorian point out, Tolkien uses her as the benchmark the others are compared to.


----------



## Wonko The Sane

Who's Finduilas?
What does it mean?


----------



## Inderjit S

Finduilas was the daugther of Orodreth and sister of Gil-Galad  

Prior to the Nirnaeth she was in love with Gwindor, and when he came back with Turin she recognized her former love, but her eye was increasingly gazing on his handsome companion. A little too much you might say. Naturally, she fell in love with him and he loved her too, but a combination of the fact that she was a Elven woman and he was a mortal man and that curse meant that they were never to be, even though they were truly in love. Finduilas was slain by a group of Orcs who went through Brethil after the sacking of Nargothrond. 

My judgement that Finduilas was the second most beautiful Elven lady is a combination of the fact that I am in love with her and this oft-forgotten passage written by Tolkien:



> Finduilas was one hot, hot Elven chick.


----------



## Beleg

Well their is definately some difference between the "hottest/sexiest" and the prettiest.


----------



## Inderjit S

I understand there is a difference Beleg, it was a poor joke. Or poor attempt at a joke. Whichever.


----------



## Thindraug_2

Eowyn or arwen.... I think


----------



## Wonko The Sane

It was a good joke Indy! I liked it!!


----------



## Kathl85

*The most beautiful..*

Eowyn---Miranda Otto---- all the way! Who's Arwen?


----------



## Wonko The Sane

I don't think we're going by movie standards here. I think this is strictly a discussion of who in the book was the prettiest.

Because there are some truly gorgeous women/elves.

Name Luthien, Galadriel, Arwen, Goldberry...Those are USUALLY the main three that get touted for being the most beautiful in Middle Earth.

Tolkien SAID that Luthien was the most beautiful, and Arwen was the closest to bear her likeness.
So that's a strong argument for Luthien. But I think we can all agree that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and that therefore finding one who is _objectively pretty_ to everyone would be difficult.
Tolkien, in essence, attempted to do this by stating Luthien was the most beautiful, but I doubt Tom Bombadil would have agreed. 

So we are left with a debate. The only drawback being that in our minds we cannot possibly envision these creatures as Tolkien did and we'll never truly know what they look like.

In our own minds any one of these people could be the most beautiful, it all depends on how we colour the words Tolkien gives us.


----------



## BlackCaptain

Kathl85, Arwen married Aragorn!


----------



## Kathl85

BlackCaptain, I know they got married.. I read the book. But, I still think Aragorn should be with Eowyn.


----------



## Inderjit S

In Tolkien's pre-liminary drafts to LoTR (HoME 7) Aragorn and Eowyn were going to be together. But he commented on him being to old and grim for her, and also with the marriage of Aragorn and Arwen the 'line' of the Peredhil was re-united so to speak, so maybe it was better that they got married, plus Faramir and Eowyn made a nice couple. 

But I agree with you if you say that Eowyn is better then Arwen, in the books, because she is, in my opinion, though that could be because we see little of Arwen in the actual book, apart from the appendix. But, heck, Eowyn was one of my favourite characters when I read LoTR.


----------



## Zale

It's definitely not Goldberry, that's for sure. I'd have to vote for Arwen over Galadriel because she still has the bloom of youth (nothing to do with Liv Tyler at all).


----------



## ely

> _Originally posted by Wonko The Sane _
> *Tolkien SAID that Luthien was the most beautiful, and Arwen was the closest to bear her likeness.
> So that's a strong argument for Luthien. But I think we can all agree that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and that therefore finding one who is objectively pretty to everyone would be difficult.
> 
> So we are left with a debate. The only drawback being that in our minds we cannot possibly envision these creatures as Tolkien did and we'll never truly know what they look like.
> 
> In our own minds any one of these people could be the most beautiful, it all depends on how we colour the words Tolkien gives us. *



I totally agree with that 

In my mind, the way that I imagine, Arwen Evenstar is the most beautiful, because Luthien seems to be beyond the borders of my imagination. And I choose Arwen over Galadriel only because I would choose evening over morning.


----------



## Captain

The thought of Arwen just turns me on


----------



## Manveru

Lady Eowyn...
Both beautiful and deadly... great mix


----------



## Wonko The Sane

Between Arwen and Galadriel I'd say that they're each beautiful in their own way, but I'd choose Evening over Morning too.
Although Luthien is still the most beautiful to me...even though I cannot even begin to picture her.


----------



## Confusticated

Though it is said that Luthien was the most fair, I suppose you want personal opinions. Well... who can argue with what Tolkien said of Luthien?

However, I will nevermind that to say that I think Melian the Maia was beautiful. To me, she is more so than Arwen, Goldberry or Galadriel.

And even all the Valar came to hear her sing at the mingling of the light of the trees. I really like Melian... to me she is the 'Gandalf of the first age'... in a way. She is beautiful.


----------



## Wonko The Sane

Yes...Melian is INDEED beautiful, in more ways than physical beauty...
And to me Goldberry can't even compete with people like Melian and Luthien, 
And only Arwen approaches competition though I don't personally feel she meets up.
People say she carried some of the beauty of Luthien, but not all by any means, and in my opinion, Luthien is still the most beautiful.


----------



## Roilya

I choose as Eomer did, the evening star.


----------



## Bucky

Since Tolkien CLEARLY states it's Luthien, I find it odd she's not in the poll.

The best Arwen could be was 'The likeness of Luthien returned'.....


----------



## WishIWasArwen

Physically, probably Arwen. Could be Galadriel. Likely Arwen and Gladriel are both supernaturally beautiful and it would be nearly impossible to pick the more so of the two, but we'll really never know. 
However, Eowyn does seem to have a very beautiful noble, courageous fighting spirit that would make men drawn to her.


----------



## WishIWasArwen

> _Originally posted by Lantarion _
> *I'd say Galadriel. Arwen is said to have the likeness of Lò´¨©en herself, but I was confused by the movie, in which Galadriel was much more beautiful than Arwen, IMHO.
> And Galadriel was the last surviver of the true Elder Days (alright so was Elrond, but Galadriel was even older), in which time the beauty of the Elves was almost equal to what it was in the Beginning..
> 
> By the way, un response to your picture, Galadreil344: ROTFLMAO!!    *



Are you crazy?
Are you saying that Cate Blanchett is more beautiful than Liv Tyler?
Are you crazy?
Are ya blind?


----------



## WishIWasArwen

> _Originally posted by Millena _
> *I can't believe you think Miranda Otto IS beautiful!!! She's not ugly, taht's for sure, she's pretty, but not beautiful... but, tastes are different, and we respect all of our opinions, right?
> As for Arwen being made like Luthien, why do you find it to be an insult? Arwen was Luthien's descendant, and I doubt they looked identical, I think the "quality and quantity" of their beauties was the same, and their similar characters and fates gave them the similar "note"... but I don't think it was anything bad... *



Ugh, Miranda Otto. Ugh. She has this weird quality in her face where I can't decide if she's 20, 50 or somewhere in between. It's not just me either, my brother also commented on the fact that she "looks like a young woman and an old woman together". Liv Tyler is gorgeous and a great actress, but anyway...
I voted Arwen.


----------



## Hobbit-GalRosie

Well, I was roving through some threads I had long ago earmarked for later perusal, and came across this ah, venerable old thread, which surely deserves a second look...also known as the most shallow and petty thread ever, but I LOVE IT! So there.  

I voted for Arwen Evenstar, even though my heart says Galadriel, and I like her so much better. When I thought about it though I think the reason for that was the way Arwen wasted away in Lorien, and it was so depressing, and the fact that Galadriel seemed so much more other-worldly, I think perhaps it was in the noble and heroic act of giving up her immortality that made Arwen seem less so to me, so I very stubbornly decided, just to be contrary, that that was not the right way to look at beauty, and that the perceived ordinariness of Arwen is one of the most beautiful things about her. After all, she did all that she did because she loved her man, and that's beautiful, and she wasn't physically less beautiful than Galadriel, it's only my sorrow over her fate that makes me think of her that way. So, Arwen, all the way.

However, just to even more contrary, not to mention rather facetious...ME!!! I'M THE PRETTIEST EVER! MY HUBBY SAM WILL TELL YOU SO TOO!!! HAPPY LITTLE HOBBIT-MAIDS ARE TEN TIMES MORE BEAUTIFUL THAN ANCIENT DOLOROUS ELVES!!! LA-LA-LA-LA! *does the springle-ring all over the front garden*


----------



## Mike

Galadriel!

After all, a Dwarf actually fell in love with her, and Dwarves hate Elf-chicks.


----------



## Hobbit-queen

Arwen.....

I wish I was her.....Liv, the daughter of a rock star....Wow....


----------



## Morgul Agent

I chose Arwen, NOT based on the movies, but on the books. (If it were based on the movies, I'd go with Galadriel, because Cate Blanchett is so beautiful, and Liv Tyler sometimes looks a bit strange).

In the books, Arwen is described as dark-haired, and representing the NIGHT, or at least the beautiful aspects of night. That does it for me right there, since I much prefer dark brunettes to blondes! 

PS Shouldn't Eowyn be on there somewhere?


----------



## Barliman Butterbur

This question is _totally_ subjective, so much so that it's almost meaningless.

If you're talking about the books, one makes up one's own vision! If you're talking about the movies, it's a tossup for me between Tyler and Otto. However I think that Sarah McLeod has an incredible sweetness in her face: perfectly cast as Rosie Cotton!

Barley


----------



## OldTomBombadil

_O slender as a willow-wand! O clearer than clear water!_
_O reed by the living pool! Fair River-daughter!_
_O spring-time and summer-time, and spring again after!_
_O wind on the waterfall, and the leaves' laughter!_

Who is the most beautiful? Why Goldberry of course! 

(Although perhaps I'm a little biased.  )


----------



## Firawyn

me of corse!

I am Firawyn, daughter or Farimir and Eowyn! I am the fairest of all!


----------



## Annaheru

Luthien, without a doubt. So beautiful she enamored Morgoth, so beautiful that wearing the Silmaril she shortened the lives of her and Beren (almost literally too hot to touch?), so beautiful she made winter into spring, so beautiful she moved Mandos to pity. Need I say more?


----------



## Barliman Butterbur

OldTomBombadil said:


> Who is the most beautiful? Why Goldberry of course!



Welcome aboard, Tom! And who could argue with that, especially with the Hildebrandt painting of her (I see your avatar is a scan of the Hildebrandt portrait of yourself)? I've been wondering when I'd see you on the Forum! 

Barley


----------



## Aiglos

Agree with Annaheru. It's got be to be Luthien from earlier than LOTR, which means that from the age of LOTR, it just has to be Arwen.


----------



## Eledhwen

GALADRIEL (not Cate B)

Her hair held the light of the two trees in it, and Feanor pestered her for a lock of it for his craftsmanship, but she would not give him even one single hair.

But as someone has already pointed out, Gimli the Dwarf, who should have preferred gals with beards, longed for another glimpse of her. And she gave him _three_ strands of her hair, and offered to part Eomer's hair for him when he said he preferred Arwen.

As for Goldberry, we have Tom's somewhat biased opinion of her to go on, but judging by the descriptive language, Frodo held Galadriel to be the byootifullest.


----------



## Arvedui

You are just soooo wrong everyone!
The most beautiful woman in Middle-earth is my wife!


----------



## Hammersmith

Hobbit-queen said:


> Arwen.....
> 
> I wish I was her.....Liv, the daughter of a rock star....Wow....


Married to a rock star, too! Royston Langdon's band is totally awesome!

With regards to the initial question, does anybody think that Galadriel's participation in the Kinslaying would have tainted her somehow?


----------



## OldTomBombadil

Barliman Butterbur said:


> Welcome aboard, Tom! And who could argue with that, especially with the Hildebrandt painting of her (I see your avatar is a scan of the Hildebrandt portrait of yourself)? I've been wondering when I'd see you on the Forum!


Thank you for the kind welcome, Mister Butterbur. I hope business is well at the Pony.  

While a work of art made by human hands can portray barely a glimpse of the true beauty of the River-daughter, I do very much like the work of the Brothers Hildebrandt. I also like this rather romanticized version of Goldberry as she's saying good night to Tom and the hobbits.


----------



## Eledhwen

Arvedui said:


> You are just soooo wrong everyone!
> The most beautiful woman in Middle-earth is my wife!


Noble sentiments. Does she read your posts?

And I prefer the Hildebrandt Goldberry, though she looks rather unmagical; the second one is just a bit too cocquettish for my taste.

Galadriel and the kinslaying: Tolkien re-wrote Galadriel's part in the flight of the Noldorin several times, but whatever version you prefer, by the time Frodo met her she was in a state of grace and would soon return across the sea. I do not think any marring of her countenance caused by the trouble of the kinslaying would still be upon her by that time.


----------



## OldTomBombadil

This is a bit off topic but since it is mentioned here...

I don't believe Galadriel actually took part in the kinslaying. Yes, she was with the Noldor that defied the Valar by leaving Aman--and thus fell under the doom of Mandos--but she was very likely traveling with Finarfin, her father, in the large party led by Fingolfin that trailed Fëanor's group. 

I seriously doubt that Thingol would have permitted Galadriel to enter Doriath, let alone establish a close relationship with Melian, if she taken part in the slaying of the Teleri.


----------



## Barliman Butterbur

OldTomBombadil said:


> Thank you for the kind welcome, Mister Butterbur. I hope business is well at the Pony.



Business is well! I only regret your not being here, but you set limits to your territory long ago. 



> While a work of art made by human hands can portray barely a glimpse of the true beauty of the River-daughter, I do very much like the work of the Brothers Hildebrandt. I also like this rather romanticized version of Goldberry as she's saying good night to Tom and the hobbits.



Alas, I much prefer the Hildebrandt version. This other one reminds me too much of overly-styled Hallmark Cards...  

Barley


----------



## Laivinë

Concerning the poll...

I believe that Lúthien Tinúviel was the fairest to have ever lived in Middle-earth. Tolkien wrote of her saying, "Blue was her raiment as the unclouded heaven, but her eyes were grey as the starlit evening; her mantle was sewn with golden flowers, but her hair was dark as the shadows of twilight." All his words concering her seem to potray beauty and grace. I also believe that Luthien embodied Edith, his wife. On her gravestone is engraved 'Luthien' and on his 'Beren'. He loved her more than anyone else in the world and so I think that he would have portrayed her as the fairest.  Vanya sulie-


----------



## Arvedui

Eledhwen said:


> Noble sentiments. Does she read your posts?


Good heavens, no!
She has no interest in Tolkien whatsoever, and has never understood why the professor takes so much of my time.

But I guess that nobody's perfect.


----------



## Ingwë

Everybody say Arwen Evenstar is the most beautiful woman in Middle earth but I don`t agreE although she is second Luthien. I think Galadriel is the most beautiful elf and the most beautiful creature in Middle earth. She is Noldor ind she was born in Valinor during the years of the trees. I mean Galadriel of the books, not Galadriel of the movies (I don`t like the actress). I always prefer The Lady of Lorien. She is my favourite woman character in The Lord of the Rings .


----------



## e.Blackstar

Luthien, duh! Mrs. Onehand, I should say.


----------



## Valandil

Arvedui said:


> You are just soooo wrong everyone!
> The most beautiful woman in Middle-earth is my wife!



Ours together make TWO votes for Firiel!


----------



## Arvedui

It sure does!!!!


----------



## Thorondor_

The most beautiful woman in Middle Earth? Luthien, of course .. and I would complete, the best sorcerer/artist/fighter... can anyone really come close to her in these respect?


----------



## Ithrynluin

OldTomBombadil said:


> This is a bit off topic but since it is mentioned here...
> 
> I don't believe Galadriel actually took part in the kinslaying. Yes, she was with the Noldor that defied the Valar by leaving Aman--and thus fell under the doom of Mandos--but she was very likely traveling with Finarfin, her father, in the large party led by Fingolfin that trailed Fëanor's group.
> 
> I seriously doubt that Thingol would have permitted Galadriel to enter Doriath, let alone establish a close relationship with Melian, if she taken part in the slaying of the Teleri.



In both versions of her story, Galadriel partakes in the Kinslaying, but on the side of the Teleri. The difference between these two versions is that in one she comes to Middle-earth with the host of Fingolfin and meets Celeborn (a Sinda) in Doriath, while in the other she leaves Aman on a ship with Celeborn (a Telerin elf of Alqualondë), and arrives in M-e before Fëanor.


----------



## Thorondor_

> In both versions of her story, Galadriel partakes in the Kinslaying, but on the side of the Teleri



On the part of the teleri? But didn't the noldor coming behind Feanor also attack the Teleri when they saw that Feanor's troops were engaged in the fight?


----------



## Ithrynluin

Thorondor_ said:


> On the part of the teleri? But didn't the noldor coming behind Feanor also attack the Teleri when they saw that Feanor's troops were engaged in the fight?



They assumed the Teleri had attacked the Noldor first.

Re: Galadriel, she 'fought fiercely in defense of her mother's kin', which doesn't necessarily have to mean she actually killed anyone.


----------



## Thorondor_

I don't have my copy here, but since alot of the forces opposing the noldor were killed, how did she survive? And how would the noldor still accept her?


----------



## Ithrynluin

I think there were casualties on both sides, though probably more on the side of the Teleri. The host of Fingolfin was, I believe, mostly guiltless of the Kinslaying, and Galadriel travelled to M-e with them, not with Fëanor, to whom she was in every way opposed. Also, Galadriel was mighty in body and mind alike, so it shouldn't be that surprising that she made it through unscathed.


----------



## ingolmo

My vote goes to Luthien.


----------



## Thorondor_

Ithrynluin said:


> The host of Fingolfin was, I believe, mostly guiltless of the Kinslaying, and Galadriel travelled to M-e with them, not with Fëanor, to whom she was in *every way opposed*.


The words that I emphasized could be true on a somewhat metaphorical sense; Feanor's call to the elves to claim their due leadership in M-E was very appealing to her in particular, and they were both fighting Melkor.


----------



## Ithrynluin

Those words are true in a literal sense:



> _Unfinished Tales; The History of Galadriel and Celeborn_
> In The Silmarillion it is told (p. 84) that at the time of the rebellion of the Noldor in Valinor Galadriel was eager to be gone. No oaths she swore, but the words Fëanor concerning Middle-earth had kindled in her heart, for she longed to see the wide unguarded lands and to rule there a realm at her own will.





> ...the commanding stature of Galadriel already in Valinor, the equal if unlike in endowments of Fëanor; and it is said here that so far from joining in Fëanor's revolt she was in every way opposed to him. She did indeed wish to depart from Valinor and to go into the wide world of Middle-earth for the exercise of her talents; for "being brilliant in mind and swift in action she had early absorbed all of what she was capable of the teaching which the Valar thought fit to give the Eldar," and she felt confined in the tutelage of Aman


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## Corvis

Morgaphry said:


> P.S Goldberry is Daughter of the River, Which I can only guess means she was born from the River Withywindle.


You're right, I remember reading in _The Adventures of Tom Bombadil_ that Goldberry lived in the Withywindle River at the bottom with her mother. Then one day Tom got her to come up and marry him.


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## Thorondor_

She wasn't opposed to going to M-E, and she wasn't opposed to Feanor in the qualities she (or both) enjoyed. Perhaps the meaning of opposed in every way reffers to her being opposed to some parts of strategy Feanor was promoting, or maybe towards his moraliy. In what manner do you interpret oppose in every way? I don't think it's an absolute opposition here.


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## Tar-Elendil13

The most beautiful woman on middle-Earth has to be Luthien Tinuviel. I mean, she practically hypnotized Beren. She has got to be pretty.


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## Eledhwen

Tar-Elendil13 said:


> The most beautiful woman on middle-Earth has to be Luthien Tinuviel. I mean, she practically hypnotized Beren. She has got to be pretty.


She must have got it from her mother, Melian. Thingol missed the boat because he was so stunned when he clapped eyes on her that he was transfixed for three years.


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## cupn00dles

Well, from the given options i believe (by the descriptions at LOTR) that Arwen is the one... Galadriel (I believe) that at her youth in Valinor prolly would be a lot more beautiful than Arwen, but she prolly lost some of her beauty after all the torments the exiled Noldor went through and after the long ages she spent at middle-earth (but of course she was still one of the most beautiful among the Eldar)... But if you consider all of the middle-earth myth I think that Lúthien or Idril (it is said in Silmarillion that Lúthien was the most beautiful son of Ilúvatar to set foot in Arda, but I'm not quite sure...) would be the most beautiful ones... And speaking of human females, I think that the one would be Morwen, Húrin's wife...


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## Wonko The Sane

If we have to answer the question literally then the answer cannot be Luthien, as she is no longer in middle earth.

It is stated that Luthien was the most beautiful of the children of Illuvatar, but it doesn't say whether she was the most beautiful full stop.

In that sense though she was certainly more beautiful than all the other elves, and in Arwen it is said that some of the beauty of Tinuviel was born again.

So Arwen must be very beautiful. I must admit I voted for Arwen at first, but after much reflection I'd like to change my vote to Goldberry.

I don't think Goldberry would qualify as one of the children of Illuvatar, so even if we assume that Luthien is the prettiest in that set, she doesn't necessarily have to be the prettiest in total. But I believe she IS prettier than all other female creatures in ME. However as she is no longer on earth we must consider those who are left.

Of the three on the poll Galadriel, though beautiful, and though Gimli prefers her beauty, is not explicitly stated as being more beautiful than Arwen, and it is implied (or at least I infer) that Arwen is the most beautiful of the elves at that time of the world.

However, Goldberry, as River-Daughter is possibly a servant of Ulmo on par or lesser with/than Osse or Uinen. She would not have been included in the children of Illuvatar and therefore would not necessarily have been less beautiful than Luthien.

We know her beauty was great, and that she was the most beautiful woman Frodo at least had seen up until that point. That does not mean that Arwen does not surpass that beauty, in fact in description of Arwen we read that


> Such loveliness in living thing Frodo had never seen before nor imagined in his mind;


That means that Arwen is, at least, lovelier in Frodo's mind than Goldberry.

However of Goldberry it also says


> He stood as he had at times stood enchanted by fair elven-voices; but the spell that was now laid upon him was different: less keen and lofty was the delight, but deeper and nearer to mortal heart; marvellous and yet not strange.



This seems to suggest that Goldberry's face, voice, and presence put them in awe, but an awe "deeper and nearer to mortal heart" because she was, I believe, the River-Daughter, and a guardian of those waters. Perhaps their love and feelings for her was familiar as the rivers of the shire were to them, and her beauty extends to the lands around her and she is part of them and they are part of her, and that is reflected in her face and voice.

If we are speaking of elves and men Arwen is probably the most beautiful alive at the time of FotR. If we are speaking of something deeper and more powerful, though still within the confines of ME, then I'd say Goldberry's beauty, being the beauty of nature, surpasses Arwen's.

I don't know. They are both beautiful in different ways. But I choose the beauty of nature, of the rivers and waters, over the beauty of Arwen. At least today I do.


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## Elvess_Leawyn

I voted for Other, I think Eowyn would have been, but I also thought Galadriel would have been very beautiful!


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## Withywindle

The contest is between Luthien and Arwen, surely. Tolkien states that in Arwen, the loveliness of Luthien could again be seen in the World. However, Luthien must have had a certain _Je ne sais quoi, _as Arwen never has quite the effect of Luthien:

Beren was completely spellbound, and Aragorn, though deeply smitten, never seems to have been so infatuated.
Daeron was driven wild with jealousy, Arwen never provoked such feelings.
Celegorm was instantly smitten.

Besides just beauty she had other charms: the beauty of her dancing, her singing voice and some grace in her that inspired helpless platonic love as well: Huan´s devotion.

I´m afraid Arwen, though second, falls well short.


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## Erestor Arcamen

"hooray Erestor for resurrecting old threads years before your time!" 

ARWEN


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## ruiywaeouyrhffjsdhfk

Gil-Galad said:


> I checked in the Sil,although I know the answer.Luthien didn't live in ME.She lived in Doriath and later lived with Beren in the south-eastern part of Beleriand.


Doriath is in Beleriand, and Beleriand was in western Middle Earth. Therefore Lúthien can be considered in this.



Gil-Galad said:


> I confess that Luthien is the most bueatiful.But.First the thread was posted in LOTR forum at the beginning.Second all the women who are in the thread are part of the book LOTR,so they're part of IIIages.Third I believe that if the thread starter didn't have in mind only the women from the book,Luthien would be there.
> I think thew best way to find out a wau from this argue is to ask the thread starter or the moderator to be more specific about the title of the thread.


The thread starter said that this thread should not be on this page, but he put it here because this is where the traffic is.


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## ZehnWaters

Of those listed, Arwen (even though Galadriel is my favourite).


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## Elbereth Vala Varda

Ah, another thread of subjective opinion.
I so wish that people would just list:

"Who is the most beautiful woman in Middle-Earth (in your opinion)?"

Seriously, it isn't that hard, and it would display these as more of a personalized thought than an objective truth. 

Yet guys, let's be real. The most beautiful is Vana.


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## Olorgando

To all such questions I answer - not too graciously, to be sure: just look at my badges - with a quote for which I don't have the foggiest memory of its creator:

"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder"


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## Eljorahir

Who is the most beautiful woman in Middle-earth?

hmmm.
This question sounds very familiar.
hmmm.
Oh yeah. Gimli and Eomer settled this question in the late Third Age while at a dinner party!
They almost came to blows over the subject. In the end I think they agreed to disagree.


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## ZehnWaters

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Ah, another thread of subjective opinion.
> I so wish that people would just list:
> 
> "Who is the most beautiful woman in Middle-Earth (in your opinion)?"


In my opinion, such is implied in the nature of the question.


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## Elthir

Do I have to say it? I think not.

🐾


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## Halasían

Halasían said:


> I vote Eowyn. I'm not into these immortal women...


I stand by my vote on March 21 2003! 








Arvedui said:


> You are just soooo wrong everyone!
> The most beautiful woman in Middle-earth is my wife!








You are right Arvedui. Fíriel is damn fine!
By the way, how did that arranged marriage work out for your desire to unite the two kingdoms?


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