# Narsil



## Masso (Jan 11, 2005)

For those of you how don't know is the Blade that was Broken.
Why do the Dunidain, race of Numinor, carry the sword around so long broken instead of getting it reforged like Aragon did?


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## HLGStrider (Jan 11, 2005)

Let me give you a similar question: Why hasn't the U.S. government fixed the crack in the Liberty Bell?

Somethings are more sacred/important/symbollic broken than they would be fixed. That is one reason. I imagine the Rangers would have been afraid to mar the near holiness of Isildur's blade, the shards of which had sliced the finger from Sauron's hand. 

But that is probably not even half the reason. The main reason is symbolism. The breaking of Elendil's sword symbolized the breaking of the line. Elendil and Anarion were slain. The unifying member of the family, Elendil, who probably kept some governership over both Arnor and Gondor, had died. Isildur most likely would have reforged the sword when he returned, and perhaps would have made claim to Anarion's section of the lands, we will never know that, but he failed with the Ring and so forfeited the right to his inheritence. 

Only by undoing the evil of Isildur's greed could his heir reclaim his inheritence and be wrothy to weild the sword of Elendil, the true king of both the North and South kingdom. 

Isildur's family made one attempt to reunite the kingdoms prior to Aragorn and were turned down. I imagine that, had they been accepted, they would have reforged the sword. 

Aragorn was going on a duel mission: to end the Ring's power as his predescessor should have and to reunite the kingdoms as his predescessor would have. In some ways he was Isildur as Isildur should have been.


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## Eledhwen (Jan 16, 2005)

The breaking of the sword symbolised the breaking of Sauron's power. It was very shortly after that, when Isildur met his end at the Gladden Fields, that the shards of Narsil were sent with his squire Ohtar to Imladris. Isildur himself tried to leave the battlefield to take the Ring to the 'Keepers of the Three' (ie: the Elves), but he was killed before he had finished crossing the Anduin, and his remains were lost, along with the Ring.

There is no evidence that the shards were carried by all Isildur's heirs, but Aragorn was definitely carrying it when he met Frodo, but by then Sauron's power was rising again. 

It was only 100 years before Bilbo's quest that Gandalf realised that Sauron had risen again, and it took some time before he could convince Saruman (who had his own reasons for being difficult).

However, once it was established that not only was Sauron returned and his power was rising, but that the Ring had been found and Sauron knew the name and residence of its keeper, things had changed. Elrond, who had great foresight, saw that the blade would be needed, and had it reforged - itself an act of defiance against Sauron who was the blade's last victim.


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## Valandil (Jan 16, 2005)

IIRC, Elrond actually prophesied that Narsil would not be re-forged until the One Ring was found once more - way back when Ohtar brought the shards to Valandil. And it was Aragorn himself who did the re-forging, wasn't it?

I've had another question come to mind about Narsil just the last couple days, coincidentally. I believe there's mention someplace that it was first forged by a great Elven smith. Does Tolkien tell us anywhere how Elendil came by it? Had it been in the House of Andunie for some time? Did Gil-galad give it to him when he arrived in Eriador and established Arnor? Had Tar-Palantir been in possession of it - and given it to the House of Andunie (or Elendil personally) because of their support for the Faithful?

Does anyone know?


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## Turgon (Jan 16, 2005)

Narsil is a blade of dwarven craftsmanship, made by Telchar, mastersmith of Nogrod. Curiously Telchar was also responsible for the crafting of Angrist, the blade that cut the Silmaril from Morgoth's crown. Thinking about it - wasn't Angrist broken during that deed too? Hehe!! Too cool!?! Sauron's Ring and Melkor's jewels - that's quite an advertisement. Breakages aside.

Not too sure about the history of Narsil though - I cannot remember reading of any previous ownership. I think most of the greater relics of the First Age were in the keeping of the Numenorean Kings and lost in the Downfall. Tuor's axe, Dramborleg, and Thingol's sword, Aranruth, were both lost during that time, though of course the Ring of Barahir was to survive. My guess is that Narsil was a blade of lesser lineage... possibly passing through the hands of the Sons of Feanor in its long descent to Aragorn.


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## Valandil (Jan 16, 2005)

Thanks Turgon. Sorry for confusing Telchar's race. Is that from an HoMe account? If so, from where? (and if not, same question, I guess).  

Why do you think the sons of Feanor would have come along in this somewhere? (sorry - a while since I read the Silmarillion - trying to think what relationship they had to Nogrod)


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## Turgon (Jan 17, 2005)

I don't think there is any specific mention of Telchar's race in the actual text of LoTR, Aragorn mentions him by name only, outside the doors of the Golden Hall, as he tells of Narsil's lineage. References to Telchar can be found scattered throughout the various Silmarillion texts however.

The Sons of Feanor idea is pure speculation on my part, based on two factors: 

I) We are told at one point that most of the trade from Nogrod and Belegost pass through the hands of the seven sons, more specifically through the hands of Caranthir, who we are told gained great riches from it. _Published Sil: Of the Return of the Noldor_. 

II) Angrist, the other of Telchar's famed blades was originally in the possession of Curufin before it was taken from him by Beren. Also it is worth noting that Curufin, himself a great smith, thinks enough of Telchar's craftsmanship to keep one of his blades about him.

It's entirely possible of course that Narsil was a piece made on commission for a specific lord of Beleriand and that I'm just missing the reference. Was Narsil originally forged for the use of a dwarf-lord? His other two famous works, Angrist and the Dragon Helm of Dor-Lomin were both entirely suited to one of short stature - but the blade of Elendil the Tall? Thorin we know wielded Orcrist with little trouble (another blade whose origins I would love to know!) but when he breaks out of Erebor during the Battle of Five Armies he has laid aside his long blade and taken up the axe once more. Suggests to me that the longsword was not a weapon of choice for a dwarf. Narsil was more likely an export piece, that's basically my assumption when I say that it likely passed through the hands of one of Feanor's sons.

_Insert pinch of salt here._

Actually I was thinking about this subject a few nights back and came up with the theory that Narsil was in fact a short-sword later reworked by an lesser craftsman into a much larger blade: hence the structural weakness of the blade. In fact the original Narsil is nothing more that than the foot or so of steel that Aragorn proudly displays to the hobbits in Bree.

As a rule my theories have little merit...


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## Valandil (Jan 17, 2005)

Thanks for the info, Turgon.



Turgon said:


> _Insert pinch of salt here._
> 
> Actually I was thinking about this subject a few nights back and came up with the theory that Narsil was in fact a short-sword later reworked by an lesser craftsman into a much larger blade: hence the structural weakness of the blade. In fact the original Narsil is nothing more that than the foot or so of steel that Aragorn proudly displays to the hobbits in Bree.
> 
> As a rule my theories have little merit...



*takes a grain of the salt*

Er... I don't know anything about the rule, but if it's all the same to you, I'll dismiss the 'Stumpy Narsil' theory out of hand.


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## Turgon (Jan 17, 2005)

Fiddlesticks! Foiled again!

*snaps fingers*


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## Valandil (Jan 17, 2005)

Turgon said:


> ...Was Narsil originally forged for the use of a dwarf-lord? His other two famous works, Angrist and the Dragon Helm of Dor-Lomin were both entirely suited to one of short stature - but the blade of Elendil the Tall? Thorin we know wielded Orcrist with little trouble (another blade whose origins I would love to know!) but when he breaks out of Erebor during the Battle of Five Armies he has laid aside his long blade and taken up the axe once more. Suggests to me that the longsword was not a weapon of choice for a dwarf...



Perhaps Thorin was an adherent of the old 'Hagar the Horrible' motto:

"Sword for show,
Broadaxe for dough!"

OTOH, perhaps Thorin would have survived the Battle of Five Armies with Orcrist in his hands instead of an axe. And maybe those silly dwarves thought a battleaxe too valuable to bury with him, so they tossed the Elven sword in there!  

As to the other, since Nogrod was along the Ered Luin (right??) might it have survived the tumult at the end of the First Age, and Narsil have come into the hands of Gil-galad, who lived right down the way in the Second Age? Then maybe HE gave it to Elendil - perhaps in conferring those lands in Eriador upon him, as they had been nominally under his jurisdiction.

Ironically, perhaps both Elendil and Gil-galad thought Sauron was destroyed in the fall of Numenor - and the sword gift came with a big sigh of relief from Gil-galad's end. Ironically again, those very two perished together in that great mortal combat with Sauron to wrap up the Second Age...


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## Elemmire (Jan 18, 2005)

Turgon said:


> The Sons of Feanor idea is pure speculation on my part, based on two factors:
> 
> I) We are told at one point that most of the trade from Nogrod and Belegost pass through the hands of the seven sons, more specifically through the hands of Caranthir, who we are told gained great riches from it. _Published Sil: Of the Return of the Noldor_.
> 
> II) Angrist, the other of Telchar's famed blades was originally in the possession of Curufin before it was taken from him by Beren. Also it is worth noting that Curufin, himself a great smith, thinks enough of Telchar's craftsmanship to keep one of his blades about him.


 
That's rather plausible, I think. After all, Elrond and Elros _were_ fostered by the eldest sons of Feanor.

But all the same, you'd think there would have been mention of it somewhere...


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## Eledhwen (Jan 18, 2005)

Silmarillion: Of the Sindar


> Therefore Thingol took thought for arms, which before his people ahd not needed, and these at first the Naugrim (Dwarves) smithied for him; for they were greatly skilled in such work, though none among them surpassed the craftsmen of Nogrod, *of whom Telchar the smith was greatest in renown.*... Their smithcraft indeed the Sindar soon learned of them; yet in the tempering of steel alone of all crafts the Dwarves were never outmatched even by the Noldor.


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## Turgon (Jan 19, 2005)

Elemmire, I'm not really suggesting that one of Feanor's sons actually wielded Narsil, just that it might have passed their way at some point. One guess is as good as another. In UT Tolkien suggests the possiblilty that Thingol had a few weapons of Telchar's in his armoury, though he is rather unclear about it.

I doubt that that the weapons in Eledhwen's quote were crafted by Telchar though, the only clue we have to the date of Telchar's activity (the Dragon-helm - which places him around the time of Glaurung's appearance) suggests a later period.

I'm beginning to doubt that a blade as fine as Narsil would be bartered like any old orc-sticker though - a gift perhaps from the dwarves of Nogrod?

I guess the Valandil's question should be filed along with all the other unanswered mysteries.

 

As for axe versus sword, Valandil, I'm undecided. Hagar's words seem wise to me. An axe is lethal in right hands. I saw a program called 'The Axeman Cometh' on one of the history channels not long back, in which the presenter admirably demonstrated the axe's power, very cool, and very scary. The swordsmen he matched up against simply turned tail and ran when charged. I'm beginning to think, that on the whole, dwarven weapons were superior to elven ones. The dwarvish weapons lying in Smaug's hoarde were especially magnificent I am sure. I doubt that Thorin could resist wielding one as he charged headlong into the battle for his ancestral home - it seems right somehow.


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## Urambo Tauro (Jan 19, 2005)

Valandil said:


> And it was Aragorn himself who did the re-forging, wasn't it?


...no. Elvish smiths did the work. But what did they do?


> from _TLOTR_, _The Ring Goes South_
> ...the Sword-that-was-Broken shall be *re-forged*...
> ...The Sword of Elendil was *forged anew* by Elvish smiths...


Did they weld the blade parts back together or did they forge a new blade for the hilt? What does it mean to "re-forge" or "forge anew" a sword? Was the length changed in the "re-forging"?

Sidenote: The Narsil/Andúril shown in the movie is about 4½ feet long from pommel to tip.
1. Dwarf- This seems too long to be used by them...
2. Elendil- Depending on how tall he was, it sounds perfect!
3. Aragorn II- Was he as tall as his ancestors?


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## Valandil (Jan 20, 2005)

Urambo Tauro said:


> ...no. Elvish smiths did the work. But what did they do?
> 
> Did they weld the blade parts back together or did they forge a new blade for the hilt? What does it mean to "re-forge" or "forge anew" a sword? Was the length changed in the "re-forging"?
> 
> ...



Whoops - thanks UT... wonder how I got THAT idea stuck in my head!   

I don't know much about making swords - less about RE-making them, but I guess I've thought the pieces were re-joined. I didn't think there were as many as shown in the movie. 'Welded' isn't technically correct - that isn't the joining of multiple pieces by heat alone, but involves the use of an electrode, which is melted along the joint of two pieces (the sword would have had visible weld joints - and would have required 'welders' not 'smiths' for the re-making). Perhaps the pieces were mostly melted down and poured together into a new mold though...

As to the movie sword, I'd think a dwarf could have handled it with two hands. Seems like some of the old 2-handers from ye olde tymes were about as long as a man was tall.

I don't think Aragorn was QUITE as tall as his ancestors... at least not Elendil, since he was just a bit shy of 7'-11".


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## HLGStrider (Jan 24, 2005)

If I was just shy of 7-11 I'd walk the extra couple of feet and get myself a slushy.




Sorry, couldn't resist. Couldn't resist. . .

Umm. . .bye. . .


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## Valandil (Jan 25, 2005)

HLGStrider said:


> If I was just shy of 7-11 I'd walk the extra couple of feet and get myself a slushy.



I'm with YOU! What flavor would you like?


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## Narsil (Jan 25, 2005)

I'm flattered, a whole thread devoted specifically to me!  

Narsil was made by Telchar of Nogrod. How it came to Elendil I don't know but it was foretold by Elrond that it wouldn't be reforged until the ring was found as said by Aragorn at the Council of Elrond...



> But now the world is changing once again. A new hour comes. Isildur's Bane is found. Battle is at hand. The Sword shall be reforged. I will come to Minas Tirith



As described in FOTR ("The Ring Goes South") it was reforged by Elvish smiths and Aragorn christened it Anduril, Flame of the West. 



Turgon said:


> Thorin we know wielded Orcrist with little trouble (another blade whose origins I would love to know!)



Thorin's Orcrist (along with Gandalf's Glamdring and Bilbo's Sting) were found in the Troll's lair in _The Hobbit_. Elrond later identified both Orcrist and Glamdring from the runes on them..



> They are old swords, very old swords of the High Elves of the West, my kin. They were made in Gondolin for the Goblin-wars


. 

Orcrist was called "Goblin-cleaver" and Glamdring, Foehammer. Glamdring was King Turgon's sword.


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## Turgon (Jan 25, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Turgon_
> Thorin we know wielded Orcrist with little trouble (another blade whose origins I would love to know!)



Hehe... actually I was thinking more along the lines of who actually forged Glamdring and Orcrist and who specifically Orcrist belonged to. Given that it was the sister sword to the one wielded by the King of Gondolin I've always imagined it belonged somebody of note. Sadly we discussed this many moons ago and could come up with no answers.


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## Narsil (Jan 25, 2005)

I was thinking about all that was discussed in this thread and there are about a half dozen theories that spring to mind. I haven't read _Unfinished Tales_ yet (but I did get it for Christmas and it's next on the list!) or HOME but I don't recall anything concrete in LOTR or the Sil, except what I mentioned above. Certainly there are many, many people here who have a lot more knowledge than I do and could come up with much, much more. 

I guess only Tolkien knows for sure, but it's fun to theorize all the same.


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## Valandil (Jan 25, 2005)

Turgon said:


> Hehe... actually I was thinking more along the lines of who actually forged Glamdring and Orcrist and who specifically Orcrist belonged to. Given that it was the sister sword to the one wielded by the King of Gondolin I've always imagined it belonged somebody of note. Sadly we discussed this many moons ago and could come up with no answers.



For some reason, I was thinking it was Ecthelion. Don't know now if that was from something reliable, what someone else conjectured or if I just dreamed it up...


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## Majimaune (Feb 3, 2006)

Hey I know that you might not think this is Masso but it sort of srewed up on me so i made new user.
In the council of elrond it says:



> For the Sword that was Broken is the sword that Elendil broke beneth him when he fell. It has been treasured by he's heirs when all other heirlooms were lost; for it is spoken of old among us that it should be made again when the ring, Isildur's Bane, was found.



I really just answered my own question but I thought I would share it with you other people how posted.

P.S. HLGStrider I like 7-11


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