# Luthien's power over Melkor.



## Old Man Willow (Aug 6, 2002)

Luthien, only an elf with some powers of enchantment in song, comes through the gates of Melkor and places him, a Valar (though corrupt), under a spell of sleep. My question is mainly, how could she do this with such a difference in power and will of strength between the two? The only explanation I can come up with is Melkor lost much of his Valar powers of supremacy when he turned from the other Vala. Perhaps his punsihment. Luthien was not even a maia as Melian. Any other thoughts?


----------



## Gamil Zirak (Aug 6, 2002)

Melkor was enchanted by her beauty. He lusted after her and wanted her. She was able to use her good looks along with a song to allow them to escape. It's a good thing she was hot.


----------



## Tyaronumen (Aug 8, 2002)

Agreed... I think that one might also attribute a bit of arrogance to Morgoth as well. After all, she *was* in the heart of Angband -- so his guard may not have been up.


----------



## aragil (Aug 8, 2002)

Vala or no Vala, he took a corporeal form and was apparently bound within it. He was therefore subject to whatever things can happen to a body- including sleeping spells apparently. Huan was 'just' a dog, but Sauron was completely powerless when the good hound's jaws closed on his throat. Also, Fingolfin was carrying Ringil, which was 'just' a sword. Yet as I recall Morgoth was pretty severely afflicted by that sword (not to mention the talons of Thorondor). Presumably the other Vala were less susceptible to corporeal matters, as they were still able to go about 'unclad' when they wished. However, I assume that if you could trap any of the Ainur in a body, then you could do stuff to them like put them to sleep, etc.


----------



## Gil-Galad (Aug 10, 2002)

I'll be ironic.You know what people,elves,dwarves,hobbits,etc... do for love.Defeat even Valar.   But as Gamil Zirak says "It's a good think she was hot",that hepled her.


----------



## Ceorl (Aug 17, 2002)

Luthien was more than merely an Elf with some powers of Enchantment, she is half Ainur and her father was one of the fathers of the Elves, one of the mighty of those who arose at Cuivienen. It may be noted that all her powers originated in song, she sang as she wove her cloak of sleep, and her song threw donw the walls of Tol-im-Gaurhoth. 

However alot of your points were very valid, Morgoths guard was very probably down, and he lusted after her which would have lowered his resistance to enchantments.

And it was proven that an Ainur in a mortal form was subject to all sicknesses of the body merely through witnessing the Istari.

However Luthien was probably the most powerful in terms of magic of all the Elves.


----------



## Gil-Galad (Aug 17, 2002)

She was the most powerful in terms of magic from all elves,but I doubt she was so powerful as Morgoth.
Let's say it once again:"She was hot!"


----------



## Old Man Willow (Aug 18, 2002)

Ceorl,


How was she more than just an elf with powers of enchantment? Is Ainur akin to groups such as Maia?


----------



## Ceorl (Aug 18, 2002)

Yes a maia is one of the forms of Ainu. And she wasn't as powerful as morgoth but he was at a disadvantage because as, Gil_galad has stated; 'she was hot'


----------



## Maeglin (Aug 19, 2002)

hey Gil_Galad and Ceorl, I'm not quite sure I understand you, do you think she was hot?


----------



## Gil-Galad (Aug 24, 2002)

That's right Glorfindel1187 she was really hot I believe.As Ceorl I belive that was one of the reasons for Morgoth's defeating.He was just a male  !Am i right Ceorl?!


----------



## Maeglin (Aug 24, 2002)

I'll answer for him, yes he was just a male, you are right.


----------



## Gil-Galad (Aug 24, 2002)

10x Glorfindel1187,you know how many stupid things most men would do because of "hot woman" like Luthien.


----------



## LúthienTinúviel (Aug 25, 2002)

Hot? Feh. All elves were hot. Sure, Lúthien was the Fairest of the Children of Ilúvatar, but it has always been my contention that she was accounted so fair for many reasons other than her physical appearance. Her dance, her song, every aspect of her being was beautiful, not merely her body. Also, I don't know how well this fact is known, but on the graves of Tolkien and his wife is written "Beren" (on Tolkien's) and "Lúthien" (on his wife's). I don't think Tolkien would want the name of a character who was only worth anything because she was a hottie on the grave of his wife...

Ok, to help prove something, here's a rathe lengthy excerpt from Lay of Leithian. (*note the "he" is Morgoth and "she" is Lúthien)



> In his eyes the fire to flame was fanned,
> and forth he stretched his brazen hand.
> Lúthien as a shadow shrank aside.
> 'Not thus, O king! Not thus!' she cried,
> ...



Cunning arts indeed! She beat him through cunning, not because she was hot. Her power of song and dance and enchantment coupled with her razor sharp intellect is what gave her the power to defeat Morgoth. It was not so much that he was weakened that made it possible for Lúthien to defeat him, it was his pride, his overwhelming pride that has ever been Morgoth's tragic flaw - right from the beginning of the Song. Lúthien manipulated Morgoth. She didn't charge him with a sword Xena Warrior Princess style, she manipulated Morgoth to his defeat through cunning and guile. My kind of woman. 

*looks at user name* Not that I'm biased or anything...


----------



## Maeglin (Aug 25, 2002)

all that may be true but I don't think it hurt that she was hot


----------



## Gil-Galad (Aug 31, 2002)

I doubt that if she was ugly,very ugly ,she would have such success.Melkor may be ruthless and without any lifestyle,but I think he has a little taste and wouldn't like a female "monster" dancing and singing in front of him.


----------



## Ceorl (Aug 31, 2002)

Luthien, I get this creeping feeling that you are a female? Please dont bring your biased opinions here when us *ahem* unbiased men are having these talks *ahem*

anyway, take a look at this pic, looks pretty cool to me.


----------



## Gil-Galad (Aug 31, 2002)

Ceorl,I doubt LúthienTinúviel is a man!!!


----------



## LúthienTinúviel (Aug 31, 2002)

50% elf maiden. 50% Maia. 100% female.  

I'll let you *cough* totally biased men *cough* get back to your little discussion, whilst I sit in the corner and laugh at you. *smiles sweetly*


----------



## Ceorl (Sep 6, 2002)

lol


----------



## Gil-Galad (Sep 7, 2002)

LúthienTinúviel,don't you feel great when Ceorl and a great elf(me) confess that you're really hot?


----------



## LúthienTinúviel (Sep 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Gil-Galad _
> *LúthienTinúviel,don't you feel great when Ceorl and a great elf(me) confess that you're really hot?
> 
> *



He he he. Wow, took me a while to find this. Well, Gil-Galad, if you saw what I really looked like and still maintained the argument, I just might.  

*must reach 100 posts* Then we shall see. Daniel Govar, the webmaster of There and Back Again, actually did a portrait of me as Lúthien which I will use as my avatar as soon as I am allowed to.


----------



## Gil-Galad (Sep 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by LúthienTinúviel _
> *He he he. Wow, took me a while to find this. Well, Gil-Galad, if you saw what I really looked like and still maintained the argument, I just might.
> 
> *must reach 100 posts* Then we shall see. Daniel Govar, the webmaster of There and Back Again, actually did a portrait of me as Lúthien which I will use as my avatar as soon as I am allowed to.  *


We're all waiting,Ceorl and I,of course!


----------



## LúthienTinúviel (Oct 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Gil-Galad _
> *We're all waiting,Ceorl and I,of course!  *



Well mosy on over to the Photo Album and assume your seat of judgement. Perhaps someday I shall have the courage to post a real one of myself, but for now, you can marvel at the mad skills of Daniel Govar. (he drew the portrait)


----------



## Gil-Galad (Oct 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by LúthienTinúviel _
> *Well mosy on over to the Photo Album and assume your seat of judgement. Perhaps someday I shall have the courage to post a real one of myself, but for now, you can marvel at the mad skills of Daniel Govar. (he drew the portrait)  *


I'll wait for your photo,dreaming your beauty!


----------



## LúthienTinúviel (Oct 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Gil-Galad _
> *I'll wait for your photo,dreaming your beauty!   *



Have it your way, master elf. Just don't hit me when you realize I'll never be as beautiful...or even close...as Lúthien.


----------



## Maedhros (Oct 6, 2002)

Wow, great depth of discussion in this matter. I'm truly impressed.


----------



## LúthienTinúviel (Oct 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Maedhros _
> *Wow, great depth of discussion in this matter. I'm truly impressed. *



That's so excellent! We all care so much! In fact...I dedicate each and every post to you. I write solely for you and so does everyone else on the board!


----------



## Maedhros (Oct 6, 2002)

> In fact...I dedicate each and every post to you. I write solely for you and so does everyone else on the board!


I'm deeply touched by your devotion and care. Thanks.


----------



## Ceorl (Oct 6, 2002)

Luthien you should not be so modest, remember beauty is in the eye of the beholder!

If you want to see a brilliant debate centering around Luthien's beauty check out this, it is a hotly contested challenge between two of the big guilds on TTF. Come and see the words fly!


----------



## LúthienTinúviel (Oct 6, 2002)

Oh awesome! Thanks for the tip, Ceorl. I'll absolutely check it out. And for the compliment..I think.


----------



## Gil-Galad (Oct 11, 2002)

Hey guys,aren't we too much for her?Maedhros,Ceorl and Me,it will be difficult for her to decide/chose among three of us.


----------

