# Why is Denethor mad with Faramir???



## Clark Griswold (May 7, 2004)

I've seen the movies...now reading the books...the only conclusion I can find is that he loved Borimir so much, and he is taking it out on his living son...also, Faramir didn't bring him the ring when he had the chance...

Are these the only 2 reasons why Denethor goes off his rocker??? He makes some serious steps towards being a bag full of nuts...I can't think of any other reasns except thses two.

Please when answering, don't give away too much of the rest of the book...I'm on RoTK and just finished the seige of Gondor...basically I'm at the part where Denethor is about to get wood from his servants, and burn himself and Faramir...


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## Inderjit S (May 7, 2004)

> I can find is that he loved Borimir so much, and he is taking it out on his living son...also, Faramir didn't bring him the ring when he had the chance...



Your conclusion pretty much sums it up.


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## Clark Griswold (May 7, 2004)

Inderjit S said:


> Your conclusion pretty much sums it up.



so the why is Denethor so crazy? His actions seem a little extreem....did he hate Faramir before Borimir was dead?


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## 33Peregrin (May 7, 2004)

Well, Denethor prefered Boromir more than Faramir, because Boromir was more like himself. Faramir wanted to go to Rivendell, but Boromir was determined to go. Denethor indeed wishes that Faramir had gone, and died, instead. Also- Denethor believes that if it were Boromir Frodo had met in Ithilien, than he would have taken the ring to his father.
As for his craziness, I'm not completely sure. Burning himself always seemed a little extreme to me. I think it's just what he saw in the- oh wait, I don't know if you've gotten there yet, so never mind. Sorry!


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## Clark Griswold (May 10, 2004)

33Peregrin said:


> I think it's just what he saw in the- oh wait, I don't know if you've gotten there yet, so never mind. Sorry!



Yes, it makes much more sense now!!! I got to that part over the weekend...I keep saying to myself "Self, how great is this freakin' book!!!"

I'm sad that it will be over soon, I'm going to start book 6 tonight....


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## Gothmog (May 10, 2004)

Clark Griswold said:


> I'm sad that it will be over soon, I'm going to start book 6 tonight....



Don't be too sad. You will find soon that on the next reading you will pick up more from the story and continue to enjoy it. This is likely to go on for a long time to come.


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## Clark Griswold (May 11, 2004)

Gothmog said:


> Don't be too sad. You will find soon that on the next reading you will pick up more from the story and continue to enjoy it. This is likely to go on for a long time to come.



I kinda figured that, with the way people talk in such great detail about the books in here...How often do you read it a year? I think I'll make it a yearly event...Like you said, I'm sure I'll pick up more stuff the next time around...there were parts of the book when I was reading that I just had no clue what Tolkien was talking about...mostly about the characters and who was related to who...stuff like that.


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## Dark_Glamdring (May 11, 2004)

Also, I think relationship Faramir-Mithrandir is extremely important in Denethor ´s attitude with his youngest son , then after reading "the Pyre" you will understand his jealosy and why he get crazy  

*Denethor´s father was more alike Thorongil (Aragorn) and Denethor knew it, felt jealous a little bit, so Faramir helping Gandalf to bring Thorongil -Aragorn back to Gondor as a king was anything easy to accept to Denethor.+
Something Boromir never did, he was more battle man than a wizard pupil as Faramir. We all knew Faramir was right in helping Mithrandir, feeling more alike with him than with Denethor´s ambition to keep Gondor as his realm, but for it was not nice to Denethor.


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## Gothmog (May 11, 2004)

Clark Griswold said:


> I kinda figured that, with the way people talk in such great detail about the books in here...How often do you read it a year? I think I'll make it a yearly event...Like you said, I'm sure I'll pick up more stuff the next time around...there were parts of the book when I was reading that I just had no clue what Tolkien was talking about...mostly about the characters and who was related to who...stuff like that.


I don't have any set number of times to read it in a year. I just read it when I want to walk through the lands of Middle-earth. For a simple quick visit, I just look in to the Tolkien Forum .

Over a number of years I have read the Silmarillion, the Hobbit and the LotR many times. But I have never bothered to keep count. I am always too busy enjoying the writings of Tolkien. 

Continue to enjoy the books. I hope that you will also read the Silmarillion. It gives a lot of background to the LotR.


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## Melian_the_Maya (May 12, 2004)

Actually I love the Simarillion more than the Lord of the Rings... But never mind that.

I think that Denethor saw in Faramir the might of the Kings of old, which is what stops Faramir from taking the Ring in the first place. He is instinctively afraid of anything king-like because it reminds him that he is but a steward and he would have to step away in favour of a king. 

Denethor was a very clever Man. In my opinion, he would have liked people to forget the tales about the Kings of Gondor, because he himself was not one of those Kings. Faramir however loved the history and tales of Gondor and appreciated his realm more than Boromir could. Denethor and Boromir were all in favour of the present and the now, but Faramir was longer sighted and saw also back in the past and reminded Denethor permanently that he would be more suitable as future ruler than Boromir.

His elder son's death was tragic to him and deep inside, he loved Boromir much more than Faramir. The times also were grievious enough to cloud his judgement further. He has some excuses in his behaviour, but I tend to resent both him and Boromir.

As for the number of times we read the Lord of the Rings, I've never imposed reading it to myself. In the last 3 or so years I've read it about 10 times in 2 languages. However, as I have stated to begin with, I like The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales better than The Hobbit and THe Lord of the Rings.


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## Hobbit-GalRosie (May 23, 2004)

All the things everyone else has said is true, but the main thing I think was the palantir and the ships coming up the river. In the earlier drafts for that part, we find in HoMe, Denethor did indeed know the King was coming in those ships to supplant him, but as published, the story was simply that he thought Gondor itself was doomed beyond any hope of salvage, and probably he felt it was better to die by his own hand than by the blade of some heathen corsair, as he might have put it. Also, though I have to say he had a strange way of showing it, part of the reason his mind snapped was his regret for having sent Faramir needlessly to his death, or so he thought.


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## Jotun (May 27, 2004)

33Peregrin said:


> Well, Denethor prefered Boromir more than Faramir, because Boromir was more like himself. Faramir wanted to go to Rivendell, but Boromir was determined to go. Denethor indeed wishes that Faramir had gone, and died, instead. Also- Denethor believes that if it were Boromir Frodo had met in Ithilien, than he would have taken the ring to his father.
> As for his craziness, I'm not completely sure. Burning himself always seemed a little extreme to me. I think it's just what he saw in the- oh wait, I don't know if you've gotten there yet, so never mind. Sorry!



Didn't Denethor look into the Palantir at Minas Tirith?

I think most of his craziness was because Sauron got a hold of him while looking in the Palantir and filled his head with all sorts of dark thoughts. It didn't help that Boromir was killed and he blamed himself for letting him go instead of Faramir.

The burning of himself along with Faramir is just a mass collection of all the grief and Sauron-fed thoughts. When you keep strong emotions or thoughts bottled up inside you for an extended period of time, eventually you will explode in a rage of emotion. That's what I think happened at the pyre.


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## 33Peregrin (Jun 10, 2004)

Jotun said:


> Didn't Denethor look into the Palantir at Minas Tirith?



Yeah- I just didn't want to say it, because I wasn't sure if Clark Griswold had gotten to that bit yet, and I didn't want to spoil it for him.


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## King Aragorn (Jun 10, 2004)

I've heard that Denethor dislikes Faramir because Faramir looks like his mother, and that his mother died while giving birth to Faramir. I don't know if it's true, but it's what I've heard.


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## BlackCaptain (Jun 12, 2004)

Do you know where you might've heard that? I'm guessing Unfinished Tales might be a good place to look, but I probably wouldnt know. That would be interesting though... even more depth in the relationship.


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## Eledhwen (Jun 12, 2004)

The Appendices to LotR contain interesting infills on the family of the Stewards, and I would recommend anyone who has got to the end of the main story to carry on and read the appendices. If you're not into language structure or genealogies, that's easy enough to skip; but the extra storylines, for instance: taking us to the very last acts on Middle-earth of every member of the fellowship, are a must!


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## 33Peregrin (Jun 12, 2004)

So are you saying it _is_ in the appendices? I thought it sounded familiar, but if I had heard it before, I didn't know where. It's been a very long time since I have read the appendices. I guess I better read them again, this time, after I finish LOTR again.


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## King Aragorn (Jun 12, 2004)

I'm sorry, but I don't remember where I heard that. I'll try to look into it though...


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## King Aragorn (Jun 12, 2004)

I looked in the appendices of my copy of LOTR, and it says,



> He [Faramir] welcomed Gandalf at such times as he came to the City, and he learned what he could from his wisdom; and in this as in many other matters he displeased his father.



That part is in Appendix A at the end of page 1031 in my copy.


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## Dark_Glamdring (Jun 13, 2004)

Good point King Aragorn

I think this is the mayor reason for being so upset with Faramir, Faramir-Gandalf, as Denethor already says during the Pyre chapter , and before too. He was totally unable to accept an upcoming king, unable to accept Thorongil (he´s rival in his youth) became the king of Gondor and take the place he felt belongs to him.

He should be very mad with his son for helping Gandalf to find out who´s the real king and bringht him back to Gondor instead of protecting His own future as a ruling steward/Lord of Gondor.


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## Eledhwen (Jun 14, 2004)

I am not sure there is any evidence in the _book_ for Denethor being reluctant to hand over rule to the returning king (though plenty in the film). The book does indicate that Boromir might have been a problem, but the dialogue between Boromir and Denethor in the Appendix about how long it would take before the Steward could call himself King makes me believe that Denethor would indeed have given up the throne to one he considered the rightful heir. His mind had become deranged because he had gazed into the palantir; receiving the despair that Saurman fed him, not in any way because his place as ruler of Gondor was threatened by the return of the King.


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## Gothmog (Jun 14, 2004)

From Return of the King: The Pyre of Denethor


> Then suddenly Denethor laughed. He stood up tall and proud again, and stepping swiftly back to the table he lifted from it the pillow on which his head had lain. Then coming to the doorway he drew aside the covering, and lo! he had between his hands a Palantír. And as he held it up, it seemed to those that looked on that the globe began to glow with an inner flame, so that the lean face of the Lord was lit as with a red fire, and it seemed cut out of hard stone, sharp with black shadows, noble, proud, and terrible. His eyes glittered.
> 'Pride and despair!' he cried. 'Didst thou think that the eyes of the White Tower were blind? Nay, I have seen more than thou knowest, Grey Fool. For thy hope is but ignorance. Go then and labour in healing! Go forth and fight! Vanity. For a little space you may triumph on the field, for a day. But against the Power that now arises there is no victory. To this City only the first finger of its hand has yet been stretched. All the East is moving. And even now the wind of thy hope cheats thee and wafts up Anduin a fleet with black sails. The West has failed. It is time for all to depart who would not be slaves.'
> 'Such counsels will make the Enemy's victory certain indeed,' said Gandalf.
> * 'Hope on then!' laughed Denethor. 'Do I not know thee, Mithrandir? Thy hope is to rule in my stead, to stand behind every throne, north, south, or west*. I have read thy mind and its policies. Do I not know that you commanded this halfling here to keep silence? That you brought him hither to be a spy within my very chamber? And yet in our speech together I have learned the names and purpose of all thy companions. So! With the left hand thou wouldst use me for a little while as a shield against Mordor, and with the right bring up this Ranger of the North to supplant me.
> ...


I think that is enough evidence of Denethor's views on this.


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## King Aragorn (Jun 14, 2004)

Excellent point Gothmog. What page is that excerpt from?


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## Eledhwen (Jun 15, 2004)

King Aragorn said:


> Excellent point Gothmog. What page is that excerpt from?


Conceded! Can't argue with the book. Though I believe Denethor's last thoughts and ravings were probably courtesy of Sauron, and that in his right mind (as he was in his dialogue with Boromir) he would have ceded the throne to the rightful heir (though who could say if he would ever have recovered his right mind, had he not perished?)


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## Gothmog (Jun 15, 2004)

King Aragorn said:


> Excellent point Gothmog. What page is that excerpt from?


It is on pages 152 - 153 of the 1993 edition from HarperCollins The Return of the King.



> Though I believe Denethor's last thoughts and ravings were probably courtesy of Sauron, and that in his right mind (as he was in his dialogue with Boromir) he would have ceded the throne to the rightful heir (though who could say if he would ever have recovered his right mind, had he not perished?)


While it is true that these thoughts were in part due to Sauron, the feeling was, I suspect, there from very early and Sauron simply made them stronger. What Denethor would have been like in this situation had he not used the Palantir, we will never know.


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## Inderjit S (Jun 15, 2004)

Denethor himself had never got along with Gandalf. One of the things which alienated him from Aragorn was him telling Ecthelion to become friendly with Gandalf rather then Saruman.

Denethor's words echoed Sauron's thoughts on the role of the Istari in Middle-Earth. He saw them as being some kind of colonisers sent by the Valar to sound out, or colonize Middle-Earth.



> Sauron had not served Morgoth, even in his last stages, without becoming infected by his lust for destruction, and his hatred of God (which must end in nihilism). Sauron could not, of course, be a 'sincere' atheist. Though one of the minor spirits created before the world, he knew Eru, according to his measure. He probably deluded himself with the notion that the Valar (including Melkor) having failed, Eru had simply abandoned Eä, or at any rate Arda, and would not concern himself with it any more. It would appear that he interpreted the 'change of the world' at the Downfall of Númenor, when Aman was removed from the physical world, in this sense: Valar (and Elves) were removed from effective control, and Men under God's curse and wrath. If he thought about the Istari, especially Saruman and Gandalf, he imagined them as emissaries from the Valar, seeking to establish their lost power again and 'colonize' Middle-earth, as a mere effort of defeated imperialists (without knowledge or sanction of Eru). His cynicism, which (sincerely) regarded the motives of Manwë as precisely the same as his own, seemed fully justified in Saruman. Gandalf he did not understand. But certainly he had already become evil, and therefore stupid, enough to imagine that his different behaviour was due simply to weaker intelligence and lack of firm masterful purpose. He was only a rather cleverer Radagast - cleverer, because it is more profitable (more productive of power) to become absorbed in the study of people than of animals.


 Myths Transformed

His anti line of Isildur rant was a result of the anti-Arnorian stance which some of the Gondorian aristocrats held. The argument of the line may have began after the death of Onodher, and the Gondorian aristocrats (rightfully) rejected Arvedui's claim, one the count of 1. Isildur bequeathed the kingship to the line of Isildur and 2. the salic law. But of course Arvedui states that Isildur was still "high king" but of course that title had long lost it's meaning, and it would be better to appoint a popular victor of war and descendant of Anarion as king.


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## King Aragorn (Jun 17, 2004)

Where did you get that quote Inderjit S?


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