# why wasn't the ring in Gollumn's hiding place



## Welserwies (Jun 6, 2011)

Bilbo found the ring but why was it in the place where Bilbo found it? If Gollumn kept it hidden on his little island then why did it end up off the island near the entrance to the underground lake?


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## HLGStrider (Jun 6, 2011)

Gollum apparently had pockets (remember when Bilbo asks him that last "riddle" he starts to think about things he carries in his own pockets) where presumably he keeps the ring when it is not in use or in storage. I don't remember if it is stated that the ring accidentally slipped from Gollum's possession or if the ring abandoned him intentionally (presumably his pocket, though we've seen it likes to pull tricks and has slipped from and onto fingers unbidden at some point), but apparently it had happened recently enough that he had not noticed it was missing. When he wanted the ring, he automatically assumed it was in its rightful place, perhaps not mentally able to grasp the thought of losing it yet.


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## Sulimo (Jun 6, 2011)

Here is the quote from The Hobbit. 



> 'My birthday present! Curse it! How did we lose it, my precious? Yes, that's it. When we came this way last, when we twisted that nassty squeaker. That's it. Curse it! It slipped from us, after all these ages and ages!



The ring had abandoned him very recently. It slipped from his finger just as it did with Isildur. However, I imagine with Gollum living in isolation in the dark, he only rarely had reason to use the ring. Therefore, it could have been gone awhile. I am curious how many other times he "misplaced it" over the ages.


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## Turin's Friend (Jun 7, 2011)

I think the ring had abandoned Gollum just like it had done to Isildur. It is interesting to think somehow there was knowledge that Bilbo would be passing by. The ring or the master controlling it seems to have a premonition of the future. Which brings up the point of fate, and that Bilbo was meant to find the ring. So was it Sauron who was master when it came to lie in Bilbo's path, or could Iluvatar had something to do with it? If we se the Boethian philosophy at work perhaps in this case the master of the ring is neither it's self or Sauron. Interestingly enough shortly after this as Bilbo emergeges from the tunnel by the door from the Goblin lair to the outside he finds himself once again visible though it seems he thought he had the ring on now the Goblins almost catch him which one would think would bring the ring closer to Sauron, yet now the ring slips on to Bilbo's finger in his pocket, and once again he is invisible.


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## Welserwies (Jun 10, 2011)

Sulimo said:


> Here is the quote from The Hobbit.
> 
> 
> 
> The ring had abandoned him very recently. It slipped from his finger just as it did with Isildur. However, I imagine with Gollum living in isolation in the dark, he only rarely had reason to use the ring. Therefore, it could have been gone awhile. I am curious how many other times he "misplaced it" over the ages.


 
I went back and read that part because I couldn't remember your quote. I found something similar but not quite the same.

Mine read : " My birthday present! Curse it! How did we loose it, my precious? Yes, thats it. Curse it! It slipped from us, after all these ages and ages! Its gone, Gollum." 

So I guess maybe some of the editions are a little different.I didn't remember reading that line before. I must have read it when I was tired.

I just started fellow ship of the ring and noticed when Gandolf and frodo were discussing the ring Frodo told how Bilbo said the ring would seem to change sizes at times. So now the whole thing makes more sense to me.


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## Sulimo (Jun 10, 2011)

That's really interesting Welserwies. I am aware that the Hobbit, in particular the Riddles in the Dark chapter has undergone significant revision from its original published format. My version is 1994 copy with revisions from the British Fourth Edition from 1978. I am curious what version you have.


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## Paladin (Jun 11, 2011)

I also agree that the Ring allowed itself to slip from Gollum's pocket so that it could find a new bearer. The Ring has a will of its own and it intends to reunite with its one and only master, Sauron, that could not happen as long as the Ring remained with Gollum, stuck under the Misty Mountains.


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## Welserwies (Jun 11, 2011)

Paladin said:


> I also agree that the Ring allowed itself to slip from Gollum's pocket so that it could find a new bearer. The Ring has a will of its own and it intends to reunite with its one and only master, Sauron, that could not happen as long as the Ring remained with Gollum, stuck under the Misty Mountains.


 
I just read the beginning of felloship of the ring and it says much the same as you have.


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## Welserwies (Jun 11, 2011)

Sulimo said:


> That's really interesting Welserwies. I am aware that the Hobbit, in particular the Riddles in the Dark chapter has undergone significant revision from its original published format. My version is 1994 copy with revisions from the British Fourth Edition from 1978. I am curious what version you have.


 
Mine is a 2001 edition from harper collins and it says it was first published in great brittain by George Allen and Unwin in 1937. And under that it lists the 2nd through 4th edition years and then mentions reset edition 1995. 

It is a hard cover and has a very nice picture of smaug laying comfortably on a gigantic pile of gold.


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## Sulimo (Jun 11, 2011)

> Mine is a 2001 edition from harper collins and it says it was first published in great brittain by George Allen and Unwin in 1937. And under that it lists the 2nd through 4th edition years and then mentions reset edition 1995.



Well maybe they made some minor alterations in the reset 1995 edition. However, I can see no reason to change that line. This is my most recent version of the books, so I cannot check a newer one. I am going out of town today, but when I get back I need to look at my copy from the late 60's and my copy from the late 70's, and see if they read differently coming from older revisions.


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## Gandalf White (Jun 18, 2011)

Welserwies said:


> I just read the beginning of felloship of the ring and it says much the same as you have.


 
Maybe that's where it from...but there is definitely somewhere where it is explained that the Ring, realizing Gollum's intention to stay where he was, abandoned him. If my memory serves correct it was hoping a goblin would pick it up, but fate thought otherwise.


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## host of eldar (Oct 12, 2011)

I also remember as it slipped from his finger as you mentioned before


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## Sorontar (Jun 7, 2012)

I wonder, what if the ring knew that Gandalf was nearby? (Both Gandalf en Sauron are Maiar, and the ring could perhaps feel the power of Gandalf) What if the ring was trying to be found by Gandalf? What could have happened if Gandalf did?
I assume Gandalf wouldn't directly know it was the one ring. So the ring had some time to corrupt Gandalf. 

Some other opinions about this matter?

excuse me for my language mistakes, English isn't my mother tongue


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## HLGStrider (Jun 7, 2012)

Sorontar said:


> I wonder, what if the ring knew that Gandalf was nearby? (Both Gandalf en Sauron are Maiar, and the ring could perhaps feel the power of Gandalf) What if the ring was trying to be found by Gandalf? What could have happened if Gandalf did?
> I assume Gandalf wouldn't directly know it was the one ring. So the ring had some time to corrupt Gandalf.
> 
> Some other opinions about this matter?
> ...



Possible, but considering the Ring's ultimate goal of returning to Sauron, an Orc/Goblin would've been a better route to do this than a powerful being like Gandalf. 

Since Gandalf already possesses an Elven ring, I don't see him being tempted to use another ring of power so the ring would've had a lot of work a head of it to corrupt him.


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## Meldon (Jun 7, 2012)

Maybe it sensed the ring of Gandalf?:*D

Edit: I just remembered the ring poem, the 2nd line applies to this i think. *One ring to find them.*


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## HLGStrider (Jun 7, 2012)

But since Sauron didn't craft and never handled the three, would that apply in this case?


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## Meldon (Jun 7, 2012)

Yes, Read the books. There is stated, He didn't touch them but the ring has power over them. So yes, it would apply to the three elven rings


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## Prince of Cats (Jun 7, 2012)

Sorontar said:


> I wonder, what if the ring knew that Gandalf was nearby? (Both Gandalf en Sauron are Maiar, and the ring could perhaps feel the power of Gandalf) What if the ring was trying to be found by Gandalf? What could have happened if Gandalf did?
> I assume Gandalf wouldn't directly know it was the one ring. So the ring had some time to corrupt Gandalf.
> 
> Some other opinions about this matter?
> ...



Wow, what an interesting idea, Sorontar! And Welcome to the Forum! :*up


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## Starbrow (Jun 7, 2012)

What a thought-provoking idea, Sorontar.



> Since Gandalf already possesses an Elven ring, I don't see him being tempted to use another ring of power so the ring would've had a lot of work a head of it to corrupt him. .




Remember when Bilbo and Frodo tried to give the ring to Gandalf on seperate occasions. Gandalf was very afraid to handle the ring, because he knew it would tempt him.


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## HLGStrider (Jun 7, 2012)

Meldon said:


> Yes, Read the books. There is stated, He didn't touch them but the ring has power over them. So yes, it would apply to the three elven rings



Since you aren't providing a quote I'm not sure which part of the books you expect me to read to prove your point, but I was thinking of how they were discussed in the Council of Elrond. As far as that goes, it seems to me (not explicitly stated but somewhat hinted at) that as long as Sauron does not possess the One he has no power over the Three and they are hidden from him, which to me would suggest that they are also hidden from the ring which is an extension of Sauron. 

"They are not idle. But they were not made as weapons of war or conquest: that is not their power. Those who made them did not desire strength or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making, and healing to preserve all things unstained. These things the Elves of Middle-Earth have in some measure gained, though with sorrow. But all that has been wrought by those who wield the Three will turn to their undoing, and their minds and hearts will become revealed to Sauron, if he regains the One. It would be better if the Three had never been. That is his purpose." 

Now, trying to argue against myself and see it from your point of view, the only quote that comes to mind is in The Mirror of Galadriel where Galadriel says she cannot hide her ring from Frodo "the Ring-Bearer, and one who has seen the Eye." However, this is applied to Frodo himself and doesn't automatically mean the Ring itself can sense Galadriel's ring. Also, Frodo never seems to notice Elrond or Gandalf's ring even though he's with them both for longer periods than he is with Galadriel, so I'm inclined to think it is him having just seen the Eye in the Mirror that gave him the ability to sense Galadriel's ring and if it hadn't been for that he wouldn't have noticed it any more than he did with Gandalf or Elrond. 



> Remember when Bilbo and Frodo tried to give the ring to Gandalf on seperate occasions. Gandalf was very afraid to handle the ring, because he knew it would tempt him.



I misspoke a bit there. I should've just stuck to my original assessment that Gandalf would've been more difficult to corrupt, partially because I don't think he would've just gone sticking his finger into any random ring without knowing what it was because he has a ring and knows what rings are capable of doing. . . there is a dirty joke in that somewhere, but I'm going to resist.


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## Prince of Cats (Jun 7, 2012)

> [...] I was thinking of how they were discussed in the Council of Elrond. As far as that goes, it seems to me (not explicitly stated but somewhat hinted at) that as long as Sauron does not possess the One he has no power over the Three and they are hidden from him, which to me would suggest that they are also hidden from the ring which is an extension of Sauron.



I was of the belief that the three were hidden from him when he didn't posses the one. If this were the case logic would rule that the one ring is aware of the others as, if sauron doesn't have the knowledge to ~unhide them, but sauron + the ring do, the ring would seem to then have the missing knowledge of the three. Although they weren't made together, they do obviously have some sort of pseudo-spiritual bond because the destruction of the one would bring the waning of the 3's power. This would support why Galadriel says that she cannot hide her ring from the ringbearer. 



HLGStrider said:


> "They are not idle. But they were not made as weapons of war or conquest: that is not their power. Those who made them did not desire strength or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making, and healing to preserve all things unstained. These things the Elves of Middle-Earth have in some measure gained, though with sorrow. But all that has been wrought by those who wield the Three will turn to their undoing, and their minds and hearts will become revealed to Sauron, if he regains the One. It would be better if the Three had never been. That is his purpose."


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## HLGStrider (Jun 7, 2012)

Prince of Cats said:


> I was of the belief that the three were hidden from him when he didn't posses the one. If this were the case logic would rule that the one ring is aware of the others as, if sauron doesn't have the knowledge to ~unhide them, but sauron + the ring do, the ring would seem to then have the missing knowledge of the three. Although they weren't made together, they do obviously have some sort of pseudo-spiritual bond because the destruction of the one would bring the waning of the 3's power. This would support why Galadriel says that she cannot hide her ring from the ringbearer.


It's a plausible theory, but if so why doesn't Frodo or Bilbo (who wielded the Ring around Gandalf more than once) know about Gandalf's ring? I never said it wasn't possible, but I still don't see any direct quotes that to me prove that the ring has this ability _apart from_ Sauron. There can only be one Lord of the Rings after all. (Waits for an Eagle to carry her away in a puff of smoke and shame for referencing the films in a book discussion).


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## Meldon (Jun 8, 2012)

Maybe they did see his ring, but didn't know what its power was, but the ring did


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## Bucky (Jun 8, 2012)

Sorontar said:


> I wonder, what if the ring knew that Gandalf was nearby? (Both Gandalf en Sauron are Maiar, and the ring could perhaps feel the power of Gandalf) What if the ring was trying to be found by Gandalf? What could have happened if Gandalf did?
> I assume Gandalf wouldn't directly know it was the one ring. So the ring had some time to corrupt Gandalf.
> 
> Some other opinions about this matter?
> ...



*Well, here's the deal: in story, we can say that Gandalf was too preoccupied with dealing with escaping Goblins & lopping off their heads to be sensing Rings as he was trying to navigate the tunnels of the Goblins. Also, Gandalf, Thorin & Company had dropped Biblbo & run on rather rapidly from that point while Bilbo had wandered off in the other direction to Gollum's lake.

Beside's the ring was 80 years less strong than it would be at the time of the War of the Ring...

Really no need to expect Gandalf to 'feel' it's pressence.

In reality, though, the fact is that Tolkien simply hadn't thought of the Ring being more than a trinket that made one invisible when he wrote he Hobbit. :*eek:

Finally, I'd like to bring up a point not mentioned in this thread, from FOTR:

"So now, when it's master was awake once more & sending out his dark thought from Mirkwood, it (the Ring) abandoned Gollum. Only to be picked up by the most unlikely person imaginable: Bilbo from the Shire." ~ Gandalf*


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## baragund (Jun 14, 2012)

I don't agree with the suggestion by Meldon that the Ring could be sensed by Gandalf. Nothwithstanding the occasional odd look Gandalf would give Bilbo after they were reunited, Gandalf did not know Bilbo, and then Frodo, possessed the Ring for many years. Also, I always had the impression that whenever one of the Three would be revealed, it would be a surprise to those who beheld it. 

The One seemed to be able to sense the difference between being worn by Sauron and being worn by someone else. Since it belonged to Sauron, it would do the only thing it could do when it sensed it was in the possession of another and in a situation where there was no potential of being reunited: It would expand or contract as needed to escape from or latch onto that someone's finger.

If it could only have figured out how to expand and contract in an undulating manner so it could then roll itself down the road to the Barad-dur's doorstep...:*D


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## Meldon (Jun 15, 2012)

Sorry but I didn't say Gandalf sensed the one ring, but I said the one ring sensed Narya


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