# Wizards



## Aragorn21 (Nov 26, 2003)

Were the wizard immortal? Would they live forever? If not, how long would they live?


----------



## Celebthôl (Nov 26, 2003)

They could love forever 

Well they were Maia, so they were there from the beggining, their bodies aged slowly, but they were not their proper bodies they were just shells that they were "trapped in" for their stay in Middle Earth. . .


----------



## Húrin Thalion (Nov 26, 2003)

But they could be slain, as Gandalf was at Zirakzigil, as Saruman was at the steps of Bag End. But that was only their temporary bodily incarnation, their "spirit" could not be killed, of course. One has to make a distinction between their frail bodies and strong spirits.

Måns


----------



## Celebthôl (Nov 26, 2003)

Yes, even Sauron is not dead, only his outer body is, his spririt although weak, is still alive and being blown about on the wind somewhere. . .


----------



## Eledhwen (Nov 26, 2003)

The book of Unfinished Tales has a very informative section all about the Wizards, who are also called the Istari. A good library should have a copy.


----------



## Gil-Galad (Nov 26, 2003)

hmm.Yes.The wizards were part of the Istari in the beinning,the spirits which sang the first themes of music together with Eru.
Later those who decided to go in Arda and dwelt there were,let's say two types -Valar and Maiar.The Maiar were servants of the Valar.
Gandalf,Saruman,Radagast and the other two wizards who were sent to ME were Maiar.Gandalf (Olorin-his real name)was a Maia of Manwe,Saruman (Curunir)was a Maia of Aule,Radagast(how was his name-who will remind me?  )was a Maia of Yavanna.

But you'd better read The Unfinished Tales


----------



## Celebthôl (Nov 26, 2003)

Aiwendil


----------



## Inderjit S (Nov 26, 2003)

Indeed, their bodily forms could be destroyed. They could succumb to hunger and they could be slain in battle or by accident.

Saruman and Sauron's spirits were rendered impotent, bereft of any power. Olorin was also a Maia of Irmo. (Lorien)

The two "other" Wizards, went to the East of Middle-Earth to try and convert the Easterlings from their Morgothism, or wickedness, since not all evil Men worshipped Morgoth. 

Tolkien originally supposed that they came at about the same time as the other Istari ( T.A 1000) and they were not successful in their attempts to convert the wild Easterlings and may have set up their own cults or served Sauron ( They were called Alatar and Pallando). But in _Last Writings_ (HoME 12) Tolkien thinks up a new conception, in which the Blue Wizards (Ithrynluin) came in the Second Age and were more successful in converting the Easterlings, their names were Morinehtar and Rómestámo.

They of course "aged" slowly. Saruman was said to have black hair when he first came to the shores of Middle-Earth (We can still see specks of his dark hair in the chapter _The Voice of Saruman_ )


----------



## Aragorn21 (Nov 26, 2003)

Yes, I'll have to read UT definately. But let me make sure i have it strait. They're not in their real bodies, they're in "shells". They couldn't die of old age, but their bodies could be killed. Is that right?


----------



## Celebthôl (Nov 26, 2003)

Yes, they have no "real" bodies, their form is just a spirit, they take physical shape for obvious reasons.


----------



## Gandalf White (Nov 26, 2003)

That question being answered, perhaps, Inderjit, you could enlighten me about Ringwraiths 'bodies?' Were they spirits as well, or what?


----------



## Phenix (Nov 26, 2003)

No they weren't spritits, as you know they're former kings of men who was given a ring of power by sauron, As the rings consumed their sprits they also "changed them" As it's said in fotr (don't have the engish version but it basicly says) the ring wraits can not be killed that easly, they've gone to mordor for new horses. By this I draw the conclusion that they've rendered some kind of imortality and stoped age, also they must have goten "regeneration ability" (I know, not the best word but still) which means that they're some kind of " superhumans" but still once they're dead they're dead and can't be rescurected or something like this


I could be wrong so if anyone has anyother view of the mater....


----------



## Celebthôl (Nov 26, 2003)

I think they are just a nothingness, they are invisible like when you put on the one ring, like Frodo turns, but they cant get out of that state. They have a physical body, but it can only be given visible shape with cloaks and armour i think. When they get washed away, they have to make their way back to Mordor somehow, maybe on the wind as such as dust? Maybe they walk. *shrugs*


----------



## WizardMagus (Nov 26, 2003)

It was said in LotR that an Istari cannot leave the world until his purpose was fulfilled. Gandalf died, but was revived, because he had something yet to do (overthrowing Sauron).


----------



## Lantarion (Nov 27, 2003)

The Ringwraiths' bodies had to be at least relatively corporeal, because they feared fire and swords, and were in constant contact with material objects (their cloaks, swords, horses' reigns). I like to think that they were just so far into the Unseen world that the only reason they could exist in the Seen world was because Sauron held their existence within the mateiral Arda because they were his tools, his lackeys. If he had just tossed the Nine away, the Nazgûl would have just 'disappeared', or rather they would have become nonexistant in the physical world.


> _Originally posted by Inderjit S_
> Saruman and Sauron's spirits were rendered impotent, bereft of any power.


Yes; but I was wondering, is that the same which happened to Melkor? Could a Vala even be 'stripped' of their power? Melkor was shut out of Eä, as I understand it, so he can't do anything nasty; but he still has all his old power. 
Or was he both stripped of his powers _and_ tossed into the Void?


----------



## Gothmog (Nov 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lantarion _
> *Yes; but I was wondering, is that the same which happened to Melkor? Could a Vala even be 'stripped' of their power? Melkor was shut out of Eä, as I understand it, so he can't do anything nasty; but he still has all his old power.
> Or was he both stripped of his powers and tossed into the Void? *


 Melkor stripped himself of much of the power he had in the beginning by spreading it throughout Arda and the creatures he corrupted.


----------



## Gil-Galad (Nov 27, 2003)

But still we can assume that he had some power,although he was outside Ea. .Can we?


----------



## Gothmog (Nov 28, 2003)

Yes Melkor would still have power even after he had been removed from Arda. However, he would no longer be able to do anything in Arda after this point.

The power that he spread throughout the substance of Arda would still affect all that happened in Middle-earth until the end of time is finaly reached.


----------



## Gil-Galad (Nov 29, 2003)

And not only the power he spread,but also the seeds of Evil which Melkor spread and planted in Middle-earth and even in Aman would grow and affect Me until the end of days.


----------

