# Of Arwen the half-elven......



## redline2200 (Jan 12, 2003)

Ok everyone knows that Arwen stays in ME and marries Aragorn. After he dies so does she because by staying with Aragorn in ME she was choosing death. Exactly why is this? I am guessing it is either:

1) She is half-elven (like her father) so she can choose to be mortal or immortal and by choosing to stay in ME she is choosing mortality

or

2) She dies of grief because of Aragorn's death. (The only way an elf can die is by being killed or wasting in grief)

So which of these is correct, if any?


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## LordOfMoria (Jan 12, 2003)

I think by choosing to stay in Middle Earth, and marries aragorn, she gives up her immortality. What confuses me is in the appendix's of Lord of the rings, on a timeline of the fourth age, it says arwen marries someone else. how can this be?


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## Sirion (Jan 13, 2003)

I remember reading somewhere, i dont remember where, that the children of Elrond stay immortal if theyre with Elrond. Thus when Elrond leaves, his kids stay behind and become mortal. 



> _Originally posted by LordOfMoria _
> *I think by choosing to stay in Middle Earth, and marries aragorn, she gives up her immortality. What confuses me is in the appendix's of Lord of the rings, on a timeline of the fourth age, it says arwen marries someone else. how can this be? *



Where does it say that? Only place in timelines that mentions Arwen's marriage is in the third age when she marries Elessar (Aragorn) on midyear's day.


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## Wynston (Jan 13, 2003)

The children of Earendil had the choice to become like Elves or Men. Elros chose to become mortal, and Elrond to become immortal. That being said, Elrond's children still had a choice. If they chose to remain in Middle-Earth after he left, they would become mortal and die. If they left before or with him, they would retain their immortality. 

Arwen obviously becomes mortal and dies. I do recall though that when Aragorn died, she was still young. Even though the appendices don't say how long, I think she lingered for quite awhile in Lothlorien before she eventually died.


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## Glomund (Jan 13, 2003)

I hate to disagree Wynston, but I got the impression she passed away soon after Aragorn. In the Appendices it says after he passed she left Minas Tirith and dwelt in Lorien until winter came, and when the Mallorn leaves were falling, but spring had not yet come, she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth. I take that to mean less than a year passed. And I also would not consider her young, she was 2900 years old by my calculations. Born in 241 3rd age, age ended in 3021 and Aragorn gave up his life in 120 4th age.


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## Gothmog (Jan 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by LordOfMoria _
> *I think by choosing to stay in Middle Earth, and marries aragorn, she gives up her immortality. What confuses me is in the appendix's of Lord of the rings, on a timeline of the fourth age, it says arwen marries someone else. how can this be? *





> Mid-year's day.	Wedding of Elessar and Arwen.
> Year 3019 S.R. 1419



Ellessar is one more name for Aragorn.


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## LordOfMoria (Jan 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sirion _
> *I remember reading somewhere, i dont remember where, that the children of Elrond stay immortal if theyre with Elrond. Thus when Elrond leaves, his kids stay behind and become mortal.
> 
> 
> ...



Oh ok, i didnt know Elesser was another name for aragorn. But why if elronds kids stayed in Middle Earth, they would loose their immortality. How does this happen?


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## Hadhafang (Jan 13, 2003)

Aragorn's last words may reveal that Arwen's grief caused her death. 

Aragorn says, "But let us not be overthrown at the final test.....In sorrow we must go, but not despair......"
-LOTR, Appendix A (V)

However, two paragraphs later the text reads, "BUT Arwen went forth from the House and the light of her eyes was quenched, and seemed to her people that she had become cold and grey as nightfall in winter that comes without a star."

The connotation of the word 'But' reveals that Arwen despaired in spite of Aragorns encouragement. She also passes into the melancholy setting of a dying Lorien. I don't think anyone recently widowed would be uplifted in that lonely place. Furthermore, (this is speculation) Tolkien may have wanted to provide an instance of an elf passing due to grief as a form of elf death.


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## greypilgrim (Jan 13, 2003)

So she died of a broken heart then?


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## LordOfMoria (Jan 13, 2003)

so are you sayin Arwen died before Aragorn or after? tat got me confused! But why would the elves die if they stayed in middle earth


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## Hadhafang (Jan 13, 2003)

> greypilgrim: So she died of a broken heart then?



Evidence from the Appendix A (V) as mentioned above would suggest that she died of despair.



> LAnd of Moria: So are you sayin Arwen died before Aragorn or after? tat got me confused!



Arwen despairs after Aragorns death. His final words were "Farewell" (to Arwen). However, I think the that the concept of his dying was getting to her earlier. The text reads, 

"Arwen knew well what he intended, and long had forseen it; nonetheless she was overborne by her grief."
-LOTR Appendix A (V)


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## f0enix_rising (Jan 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Wynston _
> *...Elrond's children still had a choice. If they chose to remain in Middle-Earth after he left, they would become mortal and die. If they left before or with him, they would retain their immortality. *


 Elrond's kids didn't go with Elrond but remained in ME, and (I believe) retained their immortality. They just hadn't made their choice yet.

From another thread:



> _Originally posted by Tar-Elenion _
> *In Letter 153 JRRT wrote: "Elrond passes Over Sea. The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while." *


 So, I take that to mean they can leave at any time, but once they make the choice, it's done.


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## JMacEye (Jan 16, 2003)

Aragorm was given not only long life, but the choice to lay down and die at the hour of his choosing...Arwen knew what he planned. He in fact chose to die while still a strong man, not wanting to wait until he was old and feeble. This grieved Arwen even more.

Arwen remained on Middle Earth, and although she was no longer mortal, she lived much, much longer than a mortal man. She lived long enough to see all of the elves leave Middle Earth and the last ships sail. She remained for long in the lands of Lothlorien, but eventually even she succumbed to death.


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## Vorathion (Jan 17, 2003)

I thought elves where immortal, she must of died of grief


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## f0enix_rising (Jan 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by JMacEye _
> * She lived long enough to see all of the elves leave Middle Earth and the last ships sail. *


 How do we know she saw ALL the elves and ships sail?


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## JMacEye (Jan 17, 2003)

The Sil refers to Arwen remaining until all the elves had sailed away and no ships could have carried her to Valinor even if she had not already chosen mortality. There has never been any mention of any elves remaining in Middle Earth after the sailing of the last ship except for Arwen.


To Vorathion.
Elves are only immortal if they are not Half-Elvens having chosen mortality. Any Half-Elven who chooes mortality will eventually die. Even Elrond talks about this in TTT...listen carefully to his speech about it...


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## f0enix_rising (Jan 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by JMacEye _
> *The Sil refers to Arwen remaining until all the elves had sailed away and no ships could have carried her to Valinor even if she had not already chosen mortality.... *


 Thanks for clearing that up for me! I REALLY need to read the The Sil. I'm missing so much of the story it seems!.


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