# Why is Fingolfin considered a better warrior than Turin, although it was Turin who killed Melkor?



## Turin_Turambar (Oct 13, 2021)

In dagor dagorath, turin turambar is the one who will kill melkor. Moreover, in the same battle he kills melkor, which even tulkas could not defeat. However, since fingolfin could not defeat melkor and only crippled it, why do most people on this forum and on the internet think fingolfin is a better swordsman than turin?


----------



## Alcuin (Oct 13, 2021)

You continually refer to and rely upon a version of the Second Prophecy of Mandos that is not canon, that appears in various forms, and inappropriately assume that everyone else should agree with your opinion.
Tulkas could and did defeat Melkor Morgoth, not once but twice.
He overcame Morgoth when the Valar decided to imprison him for three ages of Arda after Oromë discovered and reported the Elves had awakened at Cuiviénen.
He overcame a weakened Morgoth (because he had so disseminated his power into the stuff of Arda that he was now bound to his physical manifestation and could no longer escape it; hence the Valar were able to “execute” him as if he were one of the Incarnates and expel his spirit from Eä) and bound him hand and foot in the chain Angainor forged by Aulë. Note that Tulkas was on that occasion the only Vala present in the War of Wrath.

Fingolfin was a Noldo of Valinor at the peak of his physical prowess and mental and spiritual strength when he fought and wounded Morgoth not once but seven times, and although Morgoth bore him down three times with his shield, each time Fingolfin arose to fight again until he stumbled and Morgoth was able to place his foot upon him.
_Silmarillion_ does not proclaim Fingolfin the “greatest swordsman” or compare him in any way to Túrin Turambar, nor does any other written material we have from Tolkien. It says, “Thus died Fingolfin, High King of the Noldor, most proud and valiant of the Elven-kings of old.” That’s all. By saying that “most people on this forum and on the internet think fingolfin is a better swordsman than turin _[sic]_,” you are positing an erroneous claim.
Even if we grant you your erroneous presumptions, the Túrin you describe is a Túrin Turambar returned from the Dead, possessed of powers surpassing Mortal Men, and if I am not mistaken, is afterwards himself accounted among the Valar according to the version of the Second Prophecy of Mandos to which you seem so attached.
It is a fine thing to prefer one telling of the tale above others, to argue for its correctness in Tolkien’s mythology, and even to present it as correct in your view while pointing out the deficiencies of the other tellings. It is another thing altogether to assume or assert that everyone who does not share your opinions is misguided.


----------



## Turin_Turambar (Oct 13, 2021)

Alcuin said:


> You continually refer to and rely upon a version of the Second Prophecy of Mandos that is not canon, that appears in various forms, and inappropriately assume that everyone else should agree with your opinion.
> Tulkas could and did defeat Melkor Morgoth, not once but twice.
> He overcame Morgoth when the Valar decided to imprison him for three ages of Arda after Oromë discovered and reported the Elves had awakened at Cuiviénen.
> He overcame a weakened Morgoth (because he had so disseminated his power into the stuff of Arda that he was now bound to his physical manifestation and could no longer escape it; hence the Valar were able to “execute” him as if he were one of the Incarnates and expel his spirit from Eä) and bound him hand and foot in the chain Angainor forged by Aulë. Note that Tulkas was on that occasion the only Vala present in the War of Wrath.
> ...


actually in this forum in a poll comparing fingolfin with turin, fingolfin got more votes. And comparing fingolfin with turin on other websites, most people are in favor of fingolfin. Tulkas defeated Melkor 2 times. But in Dagor Dagorath, Tulkas will not be able to defeat Melkor. Then Melkor will be killed by Turin.It surprises me a little that some people call it fingolfin even though Turin was the one who killed Melkor. That's all.


----------



## Alcuin (Oct 13, 2021)

You’re mixing apples and oranges. _Future_ Túrin is not identical to _First Age_ Túrin. In the future, the end of Arda, Túrin _returns from the Dead_ much more powerful than he was in the First Age, when he was “merely” a Man. You have your (definitely non-canonical) preferred version of “Dagor Dagorath Túrin” stuck in your head, while the rest of us puny mortals are thinking of the Túrin who killed Glaurung – in itself a significant feat.


----------



## Elthir (Oct 14, 2021)

The Second Prophecy of Mandos was abandoned.

*"Here ends The Valaquenta. If it has passed from the high and the beautiful to sadness and ruin, that was of old the fate of Arda Marred; and if any change shall come and the Marring be amended, Manwe and Varda may know; but they have not revealed it, and it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos."* JRRT, Morgoth's Ring

*"The Second Prophecy of Mandos (V. 333) had now therefore definitively disappeared. This passage was used to form a conclusion to the published Silmarillion (p. 255)."* Christopher Tolkien

And the _Quenta Silmarillion_ Dagor Dagorath becomes a Mannish Myth (see below).

Túrin is no longer named among the gods (1930), no longer given a place among the "sons of the Valar" (1937) and is seemingly coming back to slay Ancalagon rather than Morgoth (according to Andreth's prophecy anyway), and during the War of Wrath. Author's Note 7 to Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth (in Morgoth's Ring) reinforces that the Second Prophecy is out, and the events it describes become part of a Mannish Myth.

*"It is noteworthy that the Elves had no myths or legends dealing with the end of the world. The myth that appears at the end of the Silmarillion is of Númenórean origin*; it is clearly made by Men, though Men acquainted with Elvish tradition."* JRRT

*note 19 *"... in so far as this reference is to any actual written text, this is the conclusion of QS (V. 333,... ) the Prophecy of Mandos."* CJRT

Will Túrin be part of a Mannish Myth that deals with the End of Days? Who can say for certain, what we do know is that in the latest version of Túrin coming back from the dead, again it's according to a Mannish _prophecy _which does not concern the end of the world, and where it is said he will return at the Last Battle at the end of the Elder Days *and before he leaves the Circles of the World forever* will deal Ancalagon his death-stroke.

Interpret that as you like with respect to the Dagor Dagorath, but let's imagine that Túrin still has a role in an End of Days battle, according to _Mannish Myth_.

To my mind, we don't know in what state Túrin will be after returning from the dead. I would argue that the Numenoreans don't know either, but as *Alcuin* notes, it could be imagined that, returning from the dead, he is much greater than his former mortal state . . . or, in my opinion one could look at it this way: it arguably doesn't matter to the Numenoreans.

Why? Because if a _Mannish Myth_ arises in which Melkor will be defeated, then the idea is arguably self-fulfilling: if Melkor must lose, Túrin must win, and thus a _Man_ avenges the machinations of Morgoth.

In other words, it doesn't matter how strong (or great in battle) Túrin might be when he returns from the dead, what matters to the myth-makers is that Túrin was a mighty warrior when he was alive, and considering the tale of _The Children of Húrin_, it's fitting that he should have a part in killing Morgoth.

Or in other, other words: why would a mannish myth arise in which Melkor defeats Túrin?

That might be an Orkish myth, rather.

Túrin will win because the myth "needs" him to win, but I don't see this as a measure of his strength or battle prowess compared to Fingolfin or anyone else. If it was an Elvish myth (_"It is noteworthy that the Elves had no myths or legends dealing with the end of the world"_ aside for a moment), perhaps it would be Fingolfin who slays Morgoth in some End of the World encounter.


----------



## Turin_Turambar (Oct 14, 2021)

Elthir said:


> The Second Prophecy of Mandos was abandoned.
> 
> *"Here ends The Valaquenta. If it has passed from the high and the beautiful to sadness and ruin, that was of old the fate of Arda Marred; and if any change shall come and the Marring be amended, Manwe and Varda may know; but they have not revealed it, and it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos."* JRRT, Morgoth's Ring
> 
> ...


Mandos' second prophecy supports that Turin both killed ancalagon in the war of wrath and also killed melkor in dagor dagorath.
source; middle-earth.xenite.org (I viewed the text with the cache and copied and pasted it.)
Why Did Tolkien Leave Out the Second Prophecy of Mandos?​J.R.R. Tolkien did not write the published _Silmarillion_, which was his son Christopher’s dedicated attempt to publish something that resembled his father’s work but which was reasonably complete and sensible. Nonetheless, in the Foreword to the book Christopher warned readers not to look for consistency between that book and _The Lord of the Rings_ or even within _The Silmarillion_ itself. In the 12-volume _History of Middle-earth_ series he explained in meticulous detail what the sources for the published book were and why he made the choices he made.

As for the Second Prophecy of Mandos, many people wrongly believe that J.R.R. Tolkien “finished” it in the 1930s; in fact, Christopher published a much later version of the prophecy in _The Peoples of Middle-earth_, the twelfth volume of the _History_ series, in which he explained the passage’s long and complex history.

The prophecy originated as part of Tolkien’s pseudo-pagan “Mythology for England”, _The Book of Lost Tales_, which he never completed or published. The English mythology and many related elements “fell away” from the Legendarium as J.R.R. Tolkien reshaped his themes and characters into the original “Silmarillion” mythology (which spawned a number of sub-mythologies that were ultimately brought back together in what I usually refer to as “the [published] Middle-earth mythology” as represented by _The Hobbit_ and _The Lord of the Rings_).

Through the numerous changes to the stories and characters Turin lost his divine future — instead of being reborn as a god (much like Hercules was in Greek mythology after he burned himself on a pyre) Turin was simply to return for a brief time at the end of the First Age to help defeat Morgoth before dying a final death.

In other words, Tolkien decided that Turin and Beren would experience special fates among Men without being changed from Men into something else. In the original stories (from _The Book of Lost Tales_) Beren was an elf. So both Beren and Turin were to be given special reprieves from death, but neither would be allowed to remain among living Men or to continue to participate in the affairs of mortal men.

Only Eärendil, Elwing, and their sons were eventually given the special grace of shedding their mortality and joining a different race (the Elves). Elros chose to remain a mortal man and became the first King of Numenor. Eärendil and Elwing were forbidden to return to Middle-earth after they were admitted to the ranks of elven-kind, but Elrond elected to stay there for many thousands of years. His children (Elladan and Elrohir and Arwen) were given the same choice as their father, contingent upon making that choice when he finally left Middle-earth. We only learn Arwen’s choice (to become mortal like Luthien).

Tolkien did not fully abandon the idea of having some of his characters change races, but he isolated the transition to a single family line within the descendants of Luthien; hence, I think Turin had to become mortal because he did not share in that bloodline and could not surpass it. Even Tuor (the uncle cousin of Turin) is not clearly shown to have been made immortal (and in one passage Tuor apparently remained mortal in J.R.R. Tolkien’s final conception).

These conflicting traditions regarding the fates of important characters in the cycles are proof that J.R.R. Tolkien really did not have a firm idea of how to finish up his First Age legends. He clearly set himself the task of “cleaning” up many of the ideas originally held over from the mythology for England. But somewhere in the process he began to feel that his mythology was completely unsustainable — that its apparent contradictions about what science has learned about Earth’s history could not be easily explained away.

The Elves, students of the Valar and Maiar, should have had a much clearer understanding of the nature and age of Earth and the universe. The Dunedain, students of both Maiar and Eldar, should also have had a much better understanding of the “facts” of the natural world, but Tolkien tried to frame an argument for the Dunedain — who apostatized in their rebellion — to have become the source of corrupted legends and memories. And yet this tradition fails to work under close scrutiny because the rebellious Dunedain not only eschewed the Elvish languages and traditions, they were succeeded by the Faithful Numenoreans as the arbiters of Elvish history among men.

Hence, Turin’s story becomes too complex and contradictory to reliably include the second prophecy of Mandos in _The Silmarillion_, at least as Christopher tries to explain its history. Some people have suggested that given the amount of editorial intrusion Christopher exercised (including writing “The Ruin of Doriath” for _The Silmarillion_) that he could have justified including Turin’s return at the end of the First Age.

But to restore Turin and the Second Prophecy of Mandos would have diminished the story of Eärendil, which was already greatly impacted by a lack of detail for the War of Wrath. The two great tasks of the war were the overthrow of Morgoth and the defeat of the winged dragons. Without a clear outline for the War of Wrath Christopher Tolkien struggled to produce a coherent ending for the story; and he apparently felt that so much editorial decision-making had occurred by this point that a quick exit rather than further fabrication would be more faithful to his father’s memory.

Ultimately, _The Silmarillion_ fades out in what amounts to sanctioned fan fiction. Christopher had an understanding with his father that, should J.R.R. Tolkien die before completing the work, _The Silmarillion_ would become Christopher’s responsibility. He had, in my opinion, two reasonably clear choices: to try to preserve as much of his father’s work as possible or to produce a posthumous collaboration. He seems to have striven to walk a middle path, but his effort was so confusing he felt compelled to publish the twelve volumes of _The History of Middle-earth_ to explain what happened and why he made the choices he made.

Christopher does chastise himself in a few places, and eventually concedes in _The War of the Jewels_ that he probably could have achieved a much more faithful adaption of his father’s work with far less editorial intrusion; but he makes that concession with the benefit of hindsight produced by many years’ research and analysis.


----------



## Olorgando (Oct 14, 2021)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> Mandos' second prophecy supports that Turin both killed ancalagon in the war of wrath and also killed melkor in dagor dagorath.
> source; middle-earth.xenite.org (I viewed the text with the cache and copied and pasted it.)


The Second Prophecy of Mandos states "... the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end;" in the Last Battle. It says absolutely nothing about the War of Wrath and Ancalagon. Whatever Prophecy, by whomever, about Túrin taking part in the War of Wrath, has nothing whatsoever to do with the Second Prophecy of Mandos - which, from all I've read, was discarded *by JRRT himself* in later writings, and not an editorial decision by Christopher.

I also fail to see how you come to the conclusion that the article you quoted supports your outlandish, and purely private, claim. It does not.


----------



## Turin_Turambar (Oct 14, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> The Second Prophecy of Mandos states "... the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end;" in the Last Battle. It says absolutely nothing about the War of Wrath and Ancalagon. Whatever Prophecy, by whomever, about Túrin taking part in the War of Wrath, has nothing whatsoever to do with the Second Prophecy of Mandos - which, from all I've read, was discarded *by JRRT himself* in later writings, and not an editorial decision by Christopher.
> 
> I also fail to see how you come to the conclusion that the article you quoted supports your outlandish, and purely private, claim. It does not.


In fact, the article I gave emphasizes that both the second prophecy of mandos and the fact that Turin killed ancalagon in the war of wrath are in the same story. That is, he says that the two support each other.


----------



## Olorgando (Oct 14, 2021)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> In fact, the article I gave emphasizes that both the second prophecy of mandos and the fact that Turin killed ancalagon in the war of wrath are in the same story. That is, he says that the two support each other.





> Hence, Turin’s story becomes too complex and contradictory to reliably include the second prophecy of Mandos in The Silmarillion, at least as Christopher tries to explain its history. Some people have suggested that given the amount of editorial intrusion Christopher exercised (including writing “The Ruin of Doriath” for The Silmarillion) that he could have justified including Turin’s return at the end of the First Age.
> 
> But to restore Turin and the Second Prophecy of Mandos would have diminished the story of Eärendil, which was already greatly impacted by a lack of detail for the War of Wrath. The two great tasks of the war were the overthrow of Morgoth and the defeat of the winged dragons.


What he says is that the Second Prophecy no longer fits into the story, and I definitely agree with that. And as for "... he could have justified including Turin's return at the end of the First age", I strongly *disagree* with that. Having Eärendil dispatch Ancalagon was the far better story - how would Túrin have been able to deal with a flying dragon? He was only able to kill Glaurung by stealth, not face-to-face.

"The two great tasks of the war (_of Wrath!_) were the *overthrow* of Morgoth and defeat of the winged dragons." The overthrow of Morgoth in the WoW has absolutely *nothing *to do with the Final Battle of the Second Prophecy (just like the Second Prophecy never had anything to do with the War of Wrath). Two absolutely different battles / wars, two absolutely different stories.

And there simply is no such thing as a *fact* that that Túrin killed Ancalagon. It is one variant in a confused maze of contradictory stories that JRRT never got around to resolving. And that Christopher rightly rejected (for Tulkas (once again) overwhelming Morgoth? not stated explicitly, but I vaguely remember some writing that only Tulkas could carry the chain Angainor with which Morgoth was once again bound), and Eärendil and the Eagles defeating the winged dragons, with Eärendil dispatching Ancalagon personally.

Túrin was a dead end. The most tragic hero of the First Age - though he inflicted a lot of that tragedy on himself - but a dead end. The sons of Eärendil Elros and Elrond are the ones that carry the legendarium into the Second and Third Ages.


----------



## Turin_Turambar (Oct 14, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> What he says is that the Second Prophecy no longer fits into the story, and I definitely agree with that. And as for "... he could have justified including Turin's return at the end of the First age", I strongly *disagree* with that. Having Eärendil dispatch Ancalagon was the far better story - how would Túrin have been able to deal with a flying dragon? He was only able to kill Glaurung by stealth, not face-to-face.
> 
> "The two great tasks of the war (_of Wrath!_) were the *overthrow* of Morgoth and defeat of the winged dragons." The overthrow of Morgoth in the WoW has absolutely *nothing *to do with the Final Battle of the Second Prophecy (just like the Second Prophecy never had anything to do with the War of Wrath). Two absolutely different battles / wars, two absolutely different stories.
> 
> ...


this is just an idea of what you said. And I don't think it's right to make that story canon just because Earendil's story is better. When Earendil threw the ancalagon out of the sky in the war of wrath, the ancalagon fell to the ground. Then, as he was revived, Turin dealt him the fatal blow on the ground. I think Tolkien may have thought so. What I'm saying now is an idea. But I think this is the assumption that best fits the Tolkien story, the war of wrath and ancalagon.You can still argue that Earendil killed Ancalagon. I respect that. But the truth is that none of us know how Tolkien finally devised the story about the end of the War of Wrath.


----------



## Olorgando (Oct 15, 2021)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> When Earendil threw the ancalagon out of the sky in the war of wrath, the ancalagon fell to the ground. Then, as he was revived, Turin dealt him the fatal blow on the ground.


This is you own very personal, private fan-fiction which is not supported by any writing by JRRT himself.


Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> But the truth is that none of us know how Tolkien finally devised the story about the end of the War of Wrath.


The truth is that JRRT never finally devised the War of Wrath, and certainly not its ending. Which was a big problem for Christopher, and the reason that what is in the published Silmarillion about this whole affair is so superficial and hurried. Unfinished Tales. Unfortunately, JRRT failed to finish most of his work on what was to become the Silmarillion. Which is why it took Christopher so many volumes of HoMe, plus the actually so named "Unfinished Tales", to basically explain why his father never got finished. To which collection we can now add NoMe.
I can't put it better than @Alcuin did in his first reply to your Original Post, so I'll just refer you back to that, especially the last paragraph.


----------



## Elthir (Oct 15, 2021)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> In fact, the article I gave emphasizes that both the second prophecy of mandos and the fact that Turin killed ancalagon in the war of wrath are in the same story. That is, he says that the two support each other.



Another article from the web. Please provide proof from HOME that Andreth's prophecy and the Numenorean myth about the End of Days are part of the same story of Túrin's fate (after death).

And if you want to imagine that Túrin slew a "revived" Ancalagon that's up to you of course, but in
any case _Quenta_ _Silmarillion_ describes that Earendil *"slew" *Ancalagon and cast him from the sky.


----------



## Erestor Arcamen (Oct 15, 2021)

Here's the exact quote from The Silmarillion, if needed:


> But Eärendil came, shining with white flame, and about Vingilot were gathered all the great birds of heaven and Thorondor was their captain, and there was battle in the air all the day and through a dark night of doubt. Before the rising of the sun *Eärendil slew Ancalagon the Black*, the mightiest of the dragon-host, and cast him from the sky; and he fell upon the towers of Thangorodrim, and they were broken in his ruin.


Pretty straight forward if you ask me...


----------



## Turin_Turambar (Oct 16, 2021)

Elthir said:


> Another article from the web. Please provide proof from HOME that Andreth's prophecy and the Numenorean myth about the End of Days are part of the same story of Túrin's fate (after death).
> 
> And if you want to imagine that Túrin slew a "revived" Ancalagon that's up to you of course, but in
> any case _Quenta_ _Silmarillion_ describes that Earendil *"slew" *Ancalagon and cast him from the sky.


well, can't any article from the web be cited as a source for this? For example, isn't the article I gave a source?


----------



## Olorgando (Oct 16, 2021)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> well, can't any article from the web be cited as a source for this? For example, isn't the article I gave a source?


No.


----------



## Elthir (Oct 16, 2021)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> well, can't any article from the web be cited as a source for this?



You can cite all the web articles you want.

If I post an article of the web, I'll certainly cite it as evidence that I agree with me 

But anyway I asked for something from HOME, something written by Tolkien -- what I would call a *primary* source -- because that would help with respect to being compelling.

From the article you quoted:



> As for the Second Prophecy of Mandos, many people wrongly believe that J.R.R. Tolkien “finished” it in the 1930s; in fact, Christopher published a much later version of the prophecy in _The Peoples of Middle-earth_, the twelfth volume of the _History_ series, in which he explained the passage’s long and complex history.



This seems to say that "much later" Tolkien wrote a version of the Second Prophecy of Mandos.

Rather, many years after Tolkien wrote The Prophecy of Mandos (the version that appears at the end of QS, HOME V, anyway), he wrote an entirely new prophecy from Andreth the Wise woman, which concerns the War of Wrath.

Why characterize Andreth's prophecy as a later version of the Second Prophecy? Simply because Túrin is in it? It's a prophecy from a mortal woman not a Vala, and it's about an entirely different time period and war, and it's about the slaying of a dragon, not Morgoth.



> But to restore Turin and the Second Prophecy of Mandos would have diminished the story of Eärendil, which was already greatly impacted by a lack of detail for the War of Wrath.



Rather, to restore Túrin and the Second Prophecy of Mandos would not have impacted Earendil at all, because, as* Gando* already noted, the Second Prophecy had nothing to do with the War of Wrath.

*Or* perhaps the author of this article means "restore" Túrin with respect to Andreth's Prophecy_ and_ the Second Prophecy, but even if so, in any case, it's not presented here as what Tolkien actually did.

And elsewhere I've posted the entire Andrethian prophecy for you, and a section from the text (Problem of ROS) illustrating why Christopher Tolkien says Andreth's prophecy refers to the War of Wrath, and as you can see, her words say nothing about Túrin returning "twice" from the dead, or anything about an End of Days Battle.

And if we cite the entire section of the Second Prophecy from HOME V, even including the later cursory corrections (found in WJ), you'll see that it says nothing about the War of Wrath, or Túrin slaying Ancalagon.

Moreover, as has been noted by *Gando* and *E. A*. your current attempt to include Earendil fighting Ancalagon and Túrin slaying him is something JRRT never wrote, and indeed steps on the fact that Earendil "slew" the dragon according to QS.


----------



## Goku da Silva (Oct 16, 2021)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> In dagor dagorath, turin turambar is the one who will kill melkor. Moreover, in the same battle he kills melkor, which even tulkas could not defeat. However, since fingolfin could not defeat melkor and only crippled it, why do most people on this forum and on the internet think fingolfin is a better swordsman than turin?


I don't think that's canon... More like something that's yet to happen in the end of times...


----------



## Elassar (Jun 16, 2022)

Tolkien abandoned the idea of dagor dagorath

But even if it was still cannon I would still say fingolfin over Turin for his famous battle against melkor by himself. Turin howeihad the help of Earendil and a valar (tulkas)


----------



## Turin_Turambar (Jun 16, 2022)

Elassar said:


> Tolkien abandoned the idea of dagor dagorath
> 
> But even if it was still cannon I would still say fingolfin over Turin for his famous battle against melkor by himself. Turin howeihad the help of Earendil and a valar (tulkas)


It is not written anywhere that Turin got help from Tulkas and Earendil. In fact, Tulkas cannot defeat Melkor. After Turin defeated Tulkas, Turin may have fought a Melkor who defeated Tulkas.


----------



## Erestor Arcamen (Jun 16, 2022)

Turin_Turambar said:


> It is not written anywhere that Turin got help from Tulkas and Earendil. In fact, Tulkas cannot defeat Melkor. After Turin defeated Tulkas, Turin may have fought a Melkor who defeated Tulkas.


Sorry, was it written anywhere that Turin fought/defeated Tulkas? That seems unlikely


----------



## Radaghast (Jun 16, 2022)

Turin_Turambar said:


> It is not written anywhere that Turin got help from Tulkas and Earendil. In fact, Tulkas cannot defeat Melkor. After Turin defeated Tulkas, Turin may have fought a Melkor who defeated Tulkas.


Tulkas cannot defeat Melkor? And when did Túrin defeat Tulkas?


----------



## Elassar (Jun 16, 2022)

Why would Turin and tulkas fight eaachother in the first place? And tulkas already beat melkor before dagor dagorath


----------



## Radaghast (Jun 16, 2022)

I don't think Tulkas and Túrin ever even interact.


----------



## Turin_Turambar (Jun 16, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> Sorry, was it written anywhere that Turin fought/defeated Tulkas? That seems unlikely


ah sorry just a minor typo. actually; After Melkor defeats Tulkas, Turin fights with Melkor who defeated Tulkas.



Elassar said:


> Why would Turin and tulkas fight eaachother in the first place? And tulkas already beat melkor before dagor dagorath


ah sorry just a minor typo. actually; After Melkor defeats Tulkas, Turin fights with Melkor who defeated Tulkas.


----------



## Radaghast (Jun 16, 2022)

Turin_Turambar said:


> ah sorry just a minor typo. actually; After Melkor defeats Tulkas, Turin fights with Melkor who defeated Tulkas.


And what's the source for Melkor defeating Tulkas? 

Here's the quote from _The War of the Jewels_:


> Thus spake Mandos in prophecy, when the Gods sat in judgement in Valinor, and the rumour of his words was whispered among all the Elves of the West. When the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth, seeing that the guard sleepeth, shall come back through the Door of Night out of the Timeless Void; and destroy the Sun and Moon. But Eärendil shall descend upon him as a white and searing flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the *Last Battle* be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Eönwë, and on his left Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin, returning from the Doom of Men at the ending of the world; and the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Húrin and all Men be avenged.


----------



## Turin_Turambar (Jun 16, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> And what's the source for Melkor defeating Tulkas?
> 
> Here's the quote from _The War of the Jewels_:


In the prophecy, it is written that Tulkas will fight Melkor first, but Melkor's death will be at the hands of Turin. So Melkor defeated Tulkas and Melkor was killed by Turin. If Tulkas had not been defeated, it would have been Tulkas, not Turin, who would have killed the Melkor. Now all that I have said and what you have defended cannot be further than speculation, because Tolkien did not elaborate further on the Dagor Dagorath prophecy.


----------



## Radaghast (Jun 16, 2022)

That's not a source, that's just your inference. You're the one who's speculating. 

In the text, Tulkas, Ëonwe and Túrin all fight Melkor at once, with Túrin dealing the killing blow. Nothing is said about Tulkas being defeated.


----------



## Elassar (Jun 16, 2022)

It is a three on one wi Turin dealing the final blow. Tulkas, Eonwe and Turin didn't face melkor one at a time.


----------



## Turin_Turambar (Jun 17, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> That's not a source, that's just your inference. You're the one who's speculating.
> 
> In the text, Tulkas, Ëonwe and Túrin all fight Melkor at once, with Túrin dealing the killing blow. Nothing is said about Tulkas being defeated.


If you've noticed, the prophecy says that tulkas will wrestle with melkor first, but melkor will eventually be killed by Turin. The prophecy does not say that tulkas, turin and eönwe will attack melkor together. It is written only on the right and left of the tulkas who is who. And it's not necessary to view it as a 3v1 fight. If it were as you say, Turin and eönwe would have helped Tulkas while Tulkas was wrestling, or they would have fought together.


----------



## Elassar (Jun 17, 2022)

The prophecy doesn't ever state that melkor defeated tulkas either.


----------



## Radaghast (Jun 24, 2022)

Turin_Turambar said:


> If you've noticed, the prophecy says that tulkas will wrestle with melkor first, but melkor will eventually be killed by Turin. The prophecy does not say that tulkas, turin and eönwe will attack melkor together. It is written only on the right and left of the tulkas who is who. And it's not necessary to view it as a 3v1 fight. If it were as you say, Turin and eönwe would have helped Tulkas while Tulkas was wrestling, or they would have fought together.


So, only your inferences have merit? You're making quite a leap saying Melkor defeats Tulkas while I merely suggest Tulkas, Ëonwe and Túrin all fought Melkor together, which the text does seem to suggest. Why else would the text make a point of them standing stand side by side?

Here's the quote again.



> In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Eönwë, and on his left Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin, returning from the Doom of Men at the ending of the world; and the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Húrin and all Men be avenged.



In your view they just stand around and each takes turns against Melkor (kind of like that scene in the finale of the deeply disappointing _Avengers: Endgame_).


----------



## Turin_Turambar (Jun 29, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> So, only your inferences have merit? You're making quite a leap saying Melkor defeats Tulkas while I merely suggest Tulkas, Ëonwe and Túrin all fought Melkor together, which the text does seem to suggest. Why else would the text make a point of them standing stand side by side?
> 
> Here's the quote again.
> 
> ...


My thought is in the style of superheroes fighting with Thanos in Avengers Endgame. because the prophecy says eönwe will stand on the right side of the tulkas and turin on the left side. It does not say that eönwe will attack from the right of tulkas against melkor, and turin will attack from the left. If Tulkas and Turin had not fought one-on-one against Melkor, it would have been said in the prophecy that eönwe on the right of Tulkas and Turin on the left would accompany. Or there would be an expression as if eönwe would help tulkas on his right and turin would help on his left.


----------



## Radaghast (Jun 29, 2022)

HUH???


----------

