# Is TTF a Community?



## Eledhwen

*IS THE TOLKIEN FORUM A COMMUNITY?*
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Does this forum fit in with your definition of a community? 
If so, why?
If not, what does it lack?


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## celebdraug

TTF a community? Yes, precioussss
Its got nice people, and once you get to know then, it feels just like home


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## Aulë

It depends on which definition of community you use.



> *com·mu·ni·ty
> n. pl. com·mu·ni·ties *
> 1) a. A group of people living in the same locality and under the same government.
> b. The district or locality in which such a group lives.
> 
> 2) a. A group of people having common interests: the scientific community; the international business community.
> b. A group viewed as forming a distinct segment of society: the gay community; the community of color.
> 
> 3) a. Similarity or identity: a community of interests.
> b. Sharing, participation, and fellowship.
> 
> 4) Society as a whole; the public.
> 
> 5) _Ecology._
> a. A group of plants and animals living and interacting with one another in a specific region under relatively similar environmental conditions.
> b.The region occupied by a group of interacting organisms.


I believe that we fit definition 2a.


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## spirit

Aule: u always have to overoard!  




> A group of plants and animals living and interacting with one another in a specific region under relatively similar environmental conditions.


i like this one more! o group of PLANTS!!


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## Eledhwen

spirit said:


> i like this one more! o group of PLANTS!!


I'm not a plant, nor a 5th columnist for that matter.

The definitions in the OED are slightly different, and TTF doesn't fit any of them because "the condition of having certain attitudes and interest in common" falls down on the attitude bit.

We could go with "a place considered together with its inhabitants _a rural community_", and call it a virtual community.

However, for me, community is more. It involves fellowship and belonging and caring. Would anyone notice or care if I suddenly vanished from these boards? Would they if you vanished? In my case, if I took a tumble off a cliff (say,) no one would find out what happened to me because I don't know anyone else personally who posts here apart from my own young daughter. Can that _ever_ be community, virtual or otherwise?


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## Uminya

Like a community, if you were to disappear those who interact with you regularly would, of course, notice your absence. Like a community, there are different parts of "town", each with its own group, but all bound together by being in the same town...our "town" is Tolkien. We all share that common interest, that's what this town was founded on and continues to revolve around. The community has diversified. We were once a tiny mining town where all things were about the mine, now we have expanded our services to not only the mine, but also a refinery (the movie fora), a community hall (the S&B fora), as well as many clubs (the guilds). We have attempted to add a democratic element, but for now we remain an oligarchy because that seems to work just fine. We are attempting to make a newspaper, but that seems to have lost steam.

We are a community, perhaps not in a textbook definition, but one only needs to look around to see that we really do.


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## Walter

I think TTF can definitely be considered an _Online Community_, we are a group of people who - mostly - share a common interest in Tolkien (hopefully, that is ) and who communicate online and - at times - cooperate to reach certain goals (i.e. to further and broaden the understanding of Tolkien and his literary works).

That said it also needs to be mentioned that _Online Communities_ differ in many ways significantly from _Real-life Communities_(as opposed to the former). 

One of the most important differences between _Real-life Communities_ and _Online Communities_ is that it is much easier to remain anonymous in the latter. People sometimes create an _Online Character_ which has little or nothing in common with the real person behind this _Online Character_.

Also there exists quite a "bandwith" of different motives for people partaking in _Online Communities_.



Eledhwen said:


> However, for me, community is more. It involves fellowship and belonging and caring. Would anyone notice or care if I suddenly vanished from these boards? Would they if you vanished? In my case, if I took a tumble off a cliff (say,) no one would find out what happened to me because I don't know anyone else personally who posts here apart from my own young daughter. Can that ever be community, virtual or otherwise?


Some certainly would notice and care if you disappeared and probably also try to contact you (or your relatives) to find out what happened...


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## Eledhwen

Thank you Walter; I am touched. To quote Robert Burns "What power would the giftie gie us, to see ourselves as others see us."

I have once or twice PM'd people who I haven't seen around for a while; and have been reassured to find they are in good health (they say). Here in Wootton Bassett I would knock on their door and/or leave a note (often via SMS these days). I think that building community is the essence of civilisation. When we lose that, we have lost all. Does this also apply to a virutal community? I think that was the question I had in mind when I started this thread. In the great scheme of things, does TTF matter? Strangely, I think it does, because people on this forum, who I have never met face to face, matter to me.

I met someone at a business lunch yesterday for the first time; someone I have sent emails to, had telephone conversations with, sent letters to and generally pestered in one way or another. When we met, it was as if we already knew each other, even though I had to hastily readjust the mental image I had of him (he was taller and better looking!  ) This was a picture for me, of how it might be if I met with the people on this forum (Note: you don't all have to be taller and better looking - or any of you for that matter! My point was that I imagined him differently, but felt I already knew him - and was greeted in like manner. It did not feel life a first meeting.*) 

*- Eledhwen wonders if she's said enough to exonerate herself.


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## Barliman Butterbur

Eledhwen said:


> *IS THE TOLKIEN FORUM A COMMUNITY?*
> ---------------------------------------------------
> Does this forum fit in with your definition of a community?
> If so, why?
> If not, what does it lack?



I would say it's more like an extended family, judging by the range of emotions that rage! 

BTW, some if not all of the movie fora threads have been closed due to over-the-top arguing and in-fighting. Let's hope that if and when they re-open, it will be to a new era of civility and consideration, and that those involved will have learned their lesson — and I include myself.

Lotho


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## Eledhwen

Lotho_Pimple said:


> I would say it's more like an extended family, judging by the range of emotions that rage!
> 
> BTW, some if not all of **the movie fora threads have been closed due to over-the-top arguing and in-fighting.* Let's hope that if and when they re-open, it will be to a new era of civility and consideration, and that those involved will have learned their lesson — and I include myself.
> 
> Lotho


(*my emphasis) If we're an extended family, then I wouldn't hold out too much hope for civility.  Perhaps we can look at it more as a place for growing up together.


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## Confusticated

Another thing that should be mentioned (and I don't know how many of us this apllies to - but I would be interested in finding out!) is that I feel a deep bond with people who I discuss Middle-earth with. And I have bonded with quite a few members (because we have discussed Middle-earth at length, in depth, or many times) on a level I do not with the majority of the membership. Of course this is not to say I don't like/care about that majority and would not miss them should they leave.


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## Barliman Butterbur

Eledhwen said:


> (*my emphasis) If we're an extended family, then I wouldn't hold out too much hope for civility.  Perhaps we can look at it more as a place for growing up together.



I'll drink to that! Let's head off to the Green Dragon!

Lotho


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## Eledhwen

Only if we can go to the _real_ one; I fancy a pint of cider from the wood and fellowship, not a bunch of coffee houses and pubs within pubs.   I bet all they serve is Strongbow.



Nom said:


> I feel a deep bond with people who I discuss Middle-earth with. And I have bonded with quite a few members (because we have discussed Middle-earth at length, in depth, or many times) on a level I do not with the majority of the membership.


... sitting by the tale fire in the Cottage of Lost Play ... maybe it's about values; in that you might be more likely to discern the values of someone who feels strongly enough about this great work to sit and discuss it than you are the values of someone cracking jokes in the Java Coffee House. Others might feel differently, and sense more community in the S&B threads. I'd prefer the Inklings to the in-crowd, I think, though it remains untested.


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## Barliman Butterbur

Eledhwen said:


> Only if we can go to the _real_ one; I fancy a pint of cider from the wood and fellowship, not a bunch of coffee houses and pubs within pubs.   I bet all they serve is Strongbow.



Well if you're going to be such a stickler for realism, then I fear we'll have to make the trip to Bree and the Prancing Pony, where they have tables and chairs (and mugs!) big enough for the likes of us!

Lotho


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## Gandalf The Grey

* Blinks, peers through a comfortable encircling smoky haze of Longbottom Leaf at *Lotho Pimple,* who with his Hobbitish name hadn't looked quite so tall the last time Gandalf looked as to require the taller furniture of Breeland. Guesses that given all the realism, it's quite likely that *Lotho,* in his quest to sample the best exotic brews Middle Earth can offer, must have stopped by Fangorn Forest for not a few mugs of Ent-draught. *


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## Barliman Butterbur

Gandalf The Grey said:


> * Blinks, peers through a comfortable encircling smoky haze of Longbottom Leaf at *Lotho Pimple,* who with his Hobbitish name hadn't looked quite so tall the last time Gandalf looked as to require the taller furniture of Breeland. Guesses that given all the realism, it's quite likely that *Lotho,* in his quest to sample the best exotic brews Middle Earth can offer, must have stopped by Fangorn Forest for not a few mugs of Ent-draught. *



LOL! You're a funny funny guy, GG! I guess my _fana_ has its weaknesses at times... Actually, I'm thinking of marketing a new product never before seen in Middle-earth: Ent-draught Popsicles for the summer! This is a sneaky way of creating a ready market for the sale of my new line of oversize hobbit furniture. (Now THIS is the kind of post I REALLY ENJOY!)

Lotho


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## Confusticated

Eledhwen said:


> ...maybe it's about values; in that you might be more likely to discern the values of someone who feels strongly enough about this great work to sit and discuss it than you are the values of someone cracking jokes in the Java Coffee House.


It has nothing to do with values. It is not about reading threads and picking up opinions about someone, it is about sharing thoughts... giving ideas and getting some back. Reaching a new conclusion with someone.

Maybe S&B does look more like a community because of the type of interactions there. I didn't mean to say that book discussions are more of a community to me, just that it is where I bond with people which is probably off topic in this thread anyhow, so I'm going to delete my last post.


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## Confusticated

Eledhwen said:


> ...maybe it's about values; in that you might be more likely to discern the values of someone who feels strongly enough about this great work to sit and discuss it than you are the values of someone cracking jokes in the Java Coffee House.


It has nothing to do with values. It is not about reading threads and picking up opinions about someone, it is about sharing thoughts... giving ideas and getting some back. Reaching a new conclusion with someone. Doing something meaningful together.

Maybe S&B does look more like a community because of the type of interactions there. I didn't mean to say that book discussions are more of a community to me, just that it is where I bond with people which is probably off topic in this thread anyhow, and I'm going to edit my last post.


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## Fechin

A Community Yes!


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## Eledhwen

> Well if you're going to be such a stickler for realism, then I fear we'll have to make the trip to Bree and the Prancing Pony, where they have tables and chairs (and mugs!) big enough for the likes of us!
> 
> Lotho


The Eagle and Child in Oxford comes close enough (though the pony yard out the back is now enclosed, and forms a dining area, but at least the loos are now indoors!)



fechin said:


> A community, yes.


I am going to think about the things that, in my mind, a community ought to have, but which TTF lacks. (It even has a prayer meeting!) The biggest trip-up is that when someone stops posting, there is often no way of finding out why. If I had a live-alone neighbour who failed to collect the milk off their doorstep, I would go and find out if they were OK. We can't do that sort of thing here; so what's the 'virtual' equivalent of active caring?


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## Lantarion

TTF is without a doubt a strong community, one of the strongest I've seen in fact! The membership knows each other fairly well, the atmosphere is relaxed but still challenging; and what I find to be most important is the history, the fact that there are events and people and discussions that are still remembered even though they occurred long ago. 
TTF is also one of the most organized discussion fora I've encountered, EVER, and despite the many changes and problems and indecision at times, it has run smoothly for most of its lifetime. I think we should all be grateful for such a successful and warm community, despite its being on the cold, soulless internet.


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## Walter

> I am going to think about the things that, in my mind, a community ought to have, but which TTF lacks. (It even has a prayer meeting!) The biggest trip-up is that when someone stops posting, there is often no way of finding out why. If I had a live-alone neighbour who failed to collect the milk off their doorstep, I would go and find out if they were OK. We can't do that sort of thing here; so what's the 'virtual' equivalent of active caring?


I think there is no such thing as "virtual caring". Like - IMO - there is no such thing as a "virtual community". 

Since all members of an "Online Community" are real beings, the community formed by such people - with the Internet as a "communication-tool" - is as real (despite the fact that some members may not reveal their true selfs). And the emotions involved are as real - and not only when it gets into heated debates...  

When I stopped posting a few months after I had joined here I got a PM (from Mike) asking whether all was well with me or not. Meanwhile I have done the same a few times, when members I care for do not post for a long while. Of course this becomes easier when we know more about each other than just a nickname...

On the TolkienWiki I try to encourage the participants to reveal a little more about themselves and - if possible - even use their real names rather than a nickname because I hope that this will further increase the "community feeling".


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## Eledhwen

I feel I should do more in the TolkienWiki, but I haven't found the mental energy to work out its mechanics. I agree about 'virtual', the caring has to be real or it is not caring at all.


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## Walter

Eledhwen said:


> I feel I should do more in the TolkienWiki, but I haven't found the mental energy to work out its mechanics. I agree about 'virtual', the caring has to be real or it is not caring at all.



Maybe another essay: "Enter Eledhwen"?  

And, yes, feelings, emotions, caring, etc. are either real or non-existent at all...


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## Noldor_returned

The answer is yes. We are all usually friendly to one another, and we share common interests; we are all Tolkien Fanatics, instead of living near each other. Whether you think this is a community or not, I doubt you'll find a place like this except in New Zealand or on the Internet.


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## Eledhwen

Hello Noldor returned! I don't think I've seen any of your posts yet (though 'real life' has been doing some serious invading on my Tolkien time recently).

What is community? 

Look around at your 'friends' in your local area; and think for a moment how many of them would go with you to Mordor. If you're honest, your list is pretty short. I personally can not think of one single person that I could firmly say would be 'Sam' for me, with all that would entail. Maybe I would be surprised (Frodo was at Crickhollow). Maybe not. But the point is, community needs testing before it can be called 'true' with certainty.

People are like tea bags - their true colours come out in hot water; and try as we might, virtual hot water is always - at best - simulation.

Having said all that, there are people here on TTF who I call 'friend' with as much sincerity as I have for those I meet face to face.


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## Ingwë

I joined in August 2004. I saw Gil-Galad in the Mods list two months later so I send him PM. He's the first TTFer that I met (well, met is not the correct word  ). I was very happy to see Bulgarian here, at TTF. 
Gil told me that TTF is like a big family, he told me about meetings in England and Belguim. It took me a long while to realize what is THE TOLKIEN FORUM but one year has passed and now I'm glad to be a member of this community. 
I have asked members to help me about a few works on Tolkien's books and they did it. There are question threads and they have always got replies  



> Look around at your 'friends' in your local area; and think for a moment how many of them would go with you to Mordor.


Hehe  I wouldn't ask anybody for something like that though sometimes_ I _am asked to go to 'Mordor'. 

Big community TTF is


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## wizard2c

Probably not.....by modern day standards what is a community without taxes and association fees. You notice where I reside.........no boundaries.....


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## Uminya

You're a dirty lot of gravediggers, you are.


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## Barliman Butterbur

spirit said:


> Aule: u always have to go overboard!
> 
> i like this one more! a group of PLANTS!!



Or a can of mixed nuts...   

Barley


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## Eledhwen

Barliman Butterbur said:


> Or a can of mixed nuts...
> 
> Barley


I'm a sweet chestnut!

I used to go to a church near my home. I left. After I left, I found out that though I talked with the other congregants 2-3 meetings a week, I had nothing in common with them other than the church. 

In the old days, people were visible. You knew the blacksmith, the milkman, the postmistress etc, and they knew you and your business. Everyone's so private nowadays. You might have heard that the bloke who sits down the pub bar from you on a Friday is a software engineer or a lorry driver, but that's all. Instead of getting to know one another, we talk about what happened in this week's 'Friends' or Coronation Street episode, or who's going to win the big match on Saturday. Other peoples' lives, not our own; because that would leave us vulnerable and open, and we don't like that.

So, maybe instead of asking if TTF is a community, we should, as wizard2c hinted, be asking if community still exists at all in the developed world.

Clubs and societies are the closest we get, I think, to meeting the real people behind the act. In my case, it's throwing someone to the floor and holding a waster to their neck (and vice versa). This induces the sort of laughter, fun and cameraderie that society in general is losing.

TTF has some elements the physical society lacks. There aren't many Rabbit Rooms left out there. How would the Inklings have coped if the landlord of the Eagle and Child had installed a juke box (he still hasn't, by the way)? This forum provides the chat, the debate and the friendly criticism, if not the beer; and also the cameraderie (a bag of nuts!!!). To that end it is surely a community of sorts, or as near to it as anything gets in the increasingly socially dysfunctional world we live in.


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## Barliman Butterbur

Eledhwen said:


> ...TTF is ... surely a community of sorts, or as near to it as anything gets in the increasingly socially dysfunctional world we live in.



And the social dysfunction has followed us in here to an extent!  It's like a wild extended family complete with crazed friends and relations... 

Nevertheless, I have no plans to leave. I must say I am dismayed that people whom I've really enjoyed have found it necessary to move on, and I miss them. On the other hand, others have come in and new friends have been made.

Barley


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## Thorondor_

In my opinion, this is a warm, friendly place, where you could get help with info if you need any; and I am sure there are a lot of friendships built during the years, developing beyond the public eye. What I think would define us as a strong community would be more interaction, more 'events/action'. Too bad that several ideas that were proposed even this year didn't materialise. I still enjoy a lot hanging around here


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## Khôr’nagan

I'd have to say TTF is definitely a community, whether dysfunctional or not. People have friends, get together in clubs, have debates and arguments, and overall take pleasure in each other's company. And if at times it get's a little argumentative, well, nothing's perfect.


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