# Elf marriages



## Sir Eowyn (Apr 21, 2020)

Till death do us part... choose carefully here. Whew, boy.

Now, I haven't actually read the whole Salmarillion (I know, I know), but the only real portrait we get in Lord of the Rings is of course Galadriel and Celeborn. Probably the most overshadowed husband in the history of literature (and later, film as well). She's known to be a heavyweight, the peer of Elrond (probably surpassing him in actual power), and Celeborn... is around. Bit of a gap, I imagine, in marriage, when one of you wields a Great Ring. And she leaves him behind, in Middle-earth. I know she bore a ring and he didn't... but still.

Then we're told of Elrond and Celebrimbor, and don't know really the details, just that he grieved at her wounding.

Fun question... since these Elves live thousands of years, and never age, could they conceivably give birth and have thousands of children?


----------



## Elvedui (Apr 21, 2020)

I believe you mean Celebrian, given Celembrimbor was the smith who created the three elvish rings of power after being deceived by Anatar.
Although those two would make a power couple, if you're into that sort of thing.

But in theory, I believe it would be possible for elves to have thousands and thousands of children; if that was their nature. But due to the fact that they pass on into Aman, either physically or through the halls of Mandos (death), I do not think it is probable.
Elves are slow changing and constant, not that Tolkien would agree, but they are the personification of the natural world. And like mother nature, they find a state of harmony within their respective ecosystem. In this way, a single elf would never have thousands of children.


----------



## Deleted member 12094 (Apr 21, 2020)

The marriage habits may not be of my personal prime concern, but if that interests you then I might have a tip for you.

JRRT wrote an overview of "Laws and Customs Among the Eldar". It is discussed in several versions in HoME, especially book 10 ("Morgoth's Ring"). You'll find some additional information there about this topic.


----------



## Elthir (Apr 21, 2020)

Here's an edited short answer, from LAWS AND CUSTOMS . . .

"It might be thought that, since the Eldar do not (as Men deem) grow old in body, they may bring forth children at any time in the ages of their lives. But this is not so. ( . . .) As the weight of the years, with all their changes of desire and thought, gathers upon the spirit of the Eldar, so do the impulses and moods of their bodies change. ( . . .)"

"Also the Eldar say that in the begetting, and still more in the bearing of children, greater share and strength of their being, in mind and in body, goes forth than in the making of mortal children. For these reasons it came to pass that the Eldar brought forth few children; ( . . .) Doubtless they would retain for many ages the power of generation, if the will and desire were not satisfied; but with the exercise of the power the desire soon ceases, and the mind turns to other things." 

Thus Feanor's seven sons are notable in Elvish history.


----------



## Olorgando (Apr 21, 2020)

Elthir said:


> Here's an edited short answer, from LAWS AND CUSTOMS . . .
> 
> "It might be thought that, since the Eldar do not (as Men deem) grow old in body, they may bring forth children at any time in the ages of their lives. But this is not so. ( . . .) As the weight of the years, with all their changes of desire and thought, gathers upon the spirit of the Eldar, so do the impulses and moods of their bodies change. ( . . .)"
> 
> ...


No question.
But Finarfin, his younger half-brother, was also no slouch, with five children:
Finrod Felagund, Orodreth, Angrod, Aegnor, and Galadriel.
And his older half-brother Fingolfin had three:
Fingon, Turgon, and Aredhel.

That gives Finwë fifteen grandchildren - I'd bet *that* was an all-time Elven record!


----------



## Elthir (Apr 21, 2020)

I should note (or will, anyway), if I recall correctly that is, there are at least two references to the "five" sons of Feanor in texts written after 1950.

Should have really looked them up for dating (and accuracy of memory) . . . but it's not like they are likely to topple the famous seven, in anyone's mind, in any case. I can't well explain "five" at this point, and again If I recall correctly, CJRT couldn't either.

🐾


----------



## Sir Eowyn (Apr 22, 2020)

So Elves lose their... ahem... desire, after a time. Well, that just knocks out 80 percent at least of the perks of immortality.


----------



## Rivendell_librarian (Apr 22, 2020)

But maybe Elves aren't so bothered about loss of libido?


----------



## Olorgando (Apr 22, 2020)

Sir Eowyn said:


> So Elves lose their... ahem... desire, after a time. Well, that just knocks out 80 percent at least of the perks of immortality.


Erm … not *just* after passage of time ...
Elrond and Celebrían's twin sons Elladan and Elrohir were born in Third Age 130, Arwen in 241 (hang on! 111 years between them?!? This is a case for numerologists!!! 🤪 )
Anyway, as Elrond was born 58 years before the end of the First Age (or at least Elros? I'm not sure if the question that these two were twins or not has been clarified satisfacto_rily …)
(Sometimes my own tangents annoy me …)_
*Anyway!*
58 FA plus 3441 SA plus 130 TA makes Elrond a "young father" at 3629 years of age, and 3740 when Arwen was born.
Hypothesis: the Elves had (vastly) superior knowledge of a lot of things as per JRRT.
Maybe the Elven women knew *precisely* when their "dangerous days" in their cycle were, and sent hubby off to … I dunno … fishing trips or something like that during that time.
Heading for Monty Python territory: Fëanor hated fishing ...
Knowing precisely when the "dangerous days" were would also imply that Elven women also knew exactly when the "safe days" were ...
So I kind of don't know about losing desire - for bearing more children perhaps, on the women's side (and there's always that, however remote, possibility of repeating what Míriel Serindë went through with Fëanor).

Then Cirdan ...

No mention of him having kids anywhere ...
This really gets mind-boggling.
He was Lord of the western shores of Middle-earth in all ages. One of the oldest Elves, period.
So unknown centuries after the Elves awoke, more unknown centuries they spent reaching the western shores of Middle-earth, plus the Three Ages of the Valar that Melkor was held captive in Valinor (guessed at being about 10,000 of the sun years each), plus about 600 years FA of the sun, 3441 of the Second Age, and 3021 of the third Age ...
Makes over 37,000 years plus unknown previous centuries ...
either monks should stop complaining (if they do so), or Cirdan was quite satisfied with half-month intervals.


----------



## Sir Eowyn (Apr 22, 2020)

Yes, it all dazzles the imagination.


----------



## Elthir (Apr 22, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> ( . . .) 58 FA plus 3441 SA plus 130 TA makes Elrond a "young father" at 3629 years of age, . . .




About 25 Elvish Years . . . counting in yéni


----------



## Olorgando (Apr 22, 2020)

Elthir said:


> Olorgando said:
> 
> 
> > (…) 58 FA plus 3441 SA plus 130 TA makes Elrond a "young father" at 3629 years of age, ...
> ...


And about 26 when Arwen was born. 45 when he left middle-earth ...
Arwen was about 19 when she married Aragorn, and the two ruled as king and queen of the reunited Kingdom for less than a year ...
But Cirdan was pretty old in even in yéni, at least 257, perhaps closer to 260.


----------



## Firawyn (May 2, 2020)

I'm thinking more population control than sex drive, honestly. Elves habitually didn't talk about things that made them uncomfortable to discuss (an entire language not spoken in an entire city, folks, remember?) so my theory is simply that way back when, some Elven King sat down and ran the numbers and realized that if they reproduced as often as they viably _could_, they'd end up with over-population issues and probably war brought on by that point, and opted to avoid the issue all together by just making it social taboo to have more than a child or two in one's lifetime, however long that lifetime happened to be. 

Yes, I realize there are _official _laws and customs, but I believe, _officially_, the Black Speech was legal to speak Imladris, but no one did that either. Elves are sneaky little snakes, just saying.


----------



## Sir Eowyn (May 2, 2020)

Yeah, I could see that... kind of funny, though, that the big Third Age complaint is that they're dwindling. Considering that Middle-earth at that time can feed and house plenty of orcs, it might have made sense for the Elves to simply breed a lot then overrun them.


----------



## Elthir (May 3, 2020)

The Elvish internal ageing -- related to bodily fading and the loss of the desire to procreate -- just happens to be in a text called _Laws and Customs_, but to my mind, this is rather more like a biological observation, along with the Eldar noting that in the begetting, "and still more in the bearing of children, greater share and strength of their being, in mind and body, goes forth than in the making of mortal children. For these reasons it came to pass that the Eldar brought forth few children; . . ."

Tolkien would go on to note that "also" their time of generation was in their youth, "unless strange and hard fates befell them, and that the Eldar would beget children only in days of happiness and peace if they could"


----------



## Olorgando (May 4, 2020)

And Fëanor?


----------



## Elthir (May 4, 2020)

Concerning Feanor and the number of children in any house " . . . and the number grew less as ages passed; but even in the days of old, when the Eldar were few and eager to increase their kind, Feanor was renowned as the father of seven sons, and the histories record that none surpassed him."

JRRT, Laws and Customs


----------



## Olorgando (May 4, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> And Fëanor?





Elthir said:


> Concerning Feanor and the number of children in any house " . . . and the number grew less as ages passed; but even in the days of old, when the Eldar were few and eager to increase their kind, Feanor was renowned as the father of seven sons, and the histories record that none surpassed him."
> JRRT, Laws and Customs


Yeah - kind of is consistent with my very much anti-view of Fëanor that he cared squat about Laws and Customs if he was not their originator ...


----------



## Elthir (May 4, 2020)

Well . . . it's said that Feanor had foresight that his sons would not bring forth many children into Middle-earth [source HME XIII]


----------



## Olorgando (May 4, 2020)

Elthir said:


> Well . . . it's said that Feanor had foresight that his sons would not bring forth many children into Middle-earth [source HME XIII]


May his mommy told him a thing or two. I mean she decided to head over to the Halls of Mandos a bit after giving birth to him ...


----------

