# Quenya Lessons



## gate7ole (Nov 29, 2002)

*Quenya Lesson I:Nouns, Plural, Article*

The procedure I believe we should follow is the following. First I will provide the summary of the lesson. Also, I have made a few exercises and along with the given exercises of the course, they should be sufficient . I will post a few at the time and everyone will be welcome to give some answers. In order to work out, we shouldn’t rush and give all answers at once. Let many people be able to participate. Questions about the lesson as well as other remarks are welcome, too. We will try to cope with any problem that may arise, together.

This first lesson doesn’t deal with any complex issues and also our vocabulary is very limited. So I couldn’t find many interesting exercises. As the lessons advance, I’m sure we will do better (and start the translation game).


----------



## gate7ole (Nov 29, 2002)

This is a summary of the first lesson. It contains the most important points of the Lesson 2 of the course we’re following. Anyone who doesn’t have the time to read the whole passage, can use this summary (but risking to ignore some minor points that I have omitted). But the most important use of this summary is for a quick reference.
In the following passage the symbol ~ is used to give the translation when necessary.

LESSON I: Nouns. Plural form. The article. 

Nouns:
The nouns in Quenya come in _hundreds_ of different forms. They can receive many endings that express various meanings (e.g the plural, words like “of, for, with”, onwership). In comparison the English language has only four forms: the single and plural form, the ownership form (‘s) and the combination of plural and ownership.
Example:
*máryat* which means “her hands”.
Here there are two endings:
i)*-rya-* that shows ownership (meaning “her”)
ii)the final *-t* which denotes a _pair_ of something.


Plural form:
There are 2 kinds of plural in Quenya
a) The first is formed by adding the ending *-li* to the noun.
e.g. *Eldali* (from *Elda*)
Unfortunately the function of this plural is not fully understood. It is possible that it can be interpreted as “many” or “some” of the things in question. So, *Eldali* may mean “several Elves”. Lacking more information about this plural, it will not be studied further.
b) There is a second and “normal” plural. It is also formed by adding an ending to the noun. There are two occasions:
i) Nouns ending in any of the four vowels *-a, -o, -i, or –u* plus nouns ending in the group *-ië*, get the ending *-r*.
Examples:
Elda	->	Eldar
Vala	->	Valar
quendi	->	quentir (~Elf-woman)
Ainu	->	Ainur
Noldo	->	Noldor
Valië	->	Valier	(~ female Vala)
ii) Nouns ending in any consonant or in the vowel *-e*, get the ending *-i*.
Quendë->	Quendi
vendë	->	vendi	(~ maiden)
elen	->	eleni	(~ star)
Atan	->	Atani
Casar	->	Casari	(~ Dwarf)

Observation: The diairesis “¨” is only used when the letter *e* is final. So, if the word gets an ending, the diairesis is lost (as with Valië -> Valier).

Every rule has some exceptions. Here exceptions occur with some nouns ending with *-ë*, whose plural doesn’t follow the general rule of adding the *-i*.
Examples:
tyellë	-> tyeller	(~ grade)
mallë	-> maller	(~ road)
Also some nouns have been found in both plural forms:
Ingwë	->Ingwer and Ingwi


The article:
Quenya has only one article, which corresponds to the definite article “the” of English. This article is the word *i*.
Examples:
i eleni	(~ the stars)
i mar	(~ the earth)

There is no need for indefinite article. The lack of an article in Quenya implies the indefinite status of the corresponding noun.
Example:
Elen síla lúmenn’ omentielvo	(~ A star shine upon the hour of our meeting)
Here the interpretation of the phrase uses the indefinite article “a”, while the Quenya phrase has no article at all, but simply *elen* (~ star)

Articles are NOT used with proper names. E.g. *Anar* (~Sun) and *Isil* (~Moon) are considered proper nouns and don’t take an article.

Also, words denoting an entire people do not use an article.
Example:
Eldar nar vanyë	(~ Elves are beautiful)
If the word *Eldar* takes an article then it refers to a group of the *Eldar*
Example:
I Eldar nar vanyë	(~ The Elves are beautiful – referring to a particular group of elves, not all the race)


Vocabulary:
At the end of every lesson there will be introduced a group of 12 words that will consist the “proper” vocabulary learnt so far. Those will be the only words that are required to memorize as the lessons advance.
minë ~ one
Anar	~ Sun
Isil ~ Moon
ar	~ and
Elda	~ Elf
lië	~ people (an entire “ethnic group” or even race)
vendë	~ maiden
rocco	~ horse (specifically “swift horse for riding”)
aran	~ king
tári	~ queen
tasar	~ willow
nu	~ under


----------



## gate7ole (Nov 29, 2002)

*1. Form the plural of the following words:*
alda, anto, cirya, harma, macil, mornië, nóme, rassë, sangwa, seler, toron

*2. Find if there is a mistake in the next phrases:*
A. i ohtari	(ohtar ~ warrior)
B. i aran ar roccor
C. i Isil ar i Anar
D. minë liër nu aran
E. i malli	(mallë ~ road)
F. i eldar nu i aran (where aran is a particular king)
G. minë tári ar i vender

*3. Which of the following words are in plural?*
Quendi, tier, casar, eleni, anar, nér, lasser


*4. Pair the words from the two lists:*
(optional exercise that uses extra words outside the vocabulary from the Lesson 2)
i tier	the star
maller	languages
lassë	the Earth
i elen	the lifebread
i-mar	the paths
i-coimas	roads
parmar	leaf
lambi	her hands
máryat	books

*5. Translate into English:*
A. Roccor
B. Aran (two possible English translations!)
C. I rocco.
D. I roccor. 
E. Arani.
F. Minë lië nu minë aran.
G. I aran ar i tári.
H. Vendi.

*6. Translate into Quenya:*
A. Willows.
B. Elves.
C. The kings.
D. Peoples.
E. The horse under (or, below) the willow.
F. A maiden and a queen.
G. The queen and the maidens.
H. The Sun and the Moon


----------



## Elennainie (Nov 29, 2002)

> 1. Form the plural of the following words:


I'll just take the first two, so every gets a turn, like Gate7ole suggested.

Alda plural is Aldar

Anto plural is Antor


----------



## Elennainie (Nov 29, 2002)

Sorry, I should have said this first: Thanks, Gate7ole, for the excellent summary and exercises!!!   

There is a game started on the original "Common Quenya Course" thread as well. I'll post on that thread that there is a new thread. I didn't see this new one at first.

Btw, the translation of alda is "tree" and anto is "mouth".


----------



## Húrin Thalion (Nov 29, 2002)

Thank you Gate7Ole for taking time t make this excellent summary and exercises. I will now follow with two of the words:

Cirya becomes Ciryar in plura and Harma becomes Harmar.

They mean ship and treasure.

Elen


----------



## Calimehtar (Nov 29, 2002)

--------------------------------
macil - macili - 'sword'
mornie - mornier - 'darkness'
--------------------------------


Thanks for the summary!

__________________
Cody T.
Bilbos Bane
CodyT8083 - AOL


----------



## Finrod (Nov 30, 2002)

Is there a complete course of Quenya available?

Is it a real language?


----------



## Húrin Thalion (Nov 30, 2002)

Yes there is a beginners course which we are studying right now and you may join us but then you'll have to read up chapter two, not one in lesson a. Check up the thread common quenya course to see link to Ardalambion's web course. And yest it is a language, Tolkien did not create a language for his world, he created a world for his languages. 

Welcome to the forum Finrod

Húrin Thalion


----------



## Finrod (Nov 30, 2002)

Are there declensions or conjugations in Quenya( as in Latin)?

What is the purpose of the plural form for a word like darkness, is it darknesses?

(hopefully it isn't a stupid question)

yes I know you are thinking" there are no stupid questions, just stupid people"


----------



## Elennainie (Nov 30, 2002)

> Tolkien did not create a language for his world, he created a world for his languages.


 Nicely put, Hurin! 

Finrod, I PM'ed you about the course.

Gate7ole, I have a question about #3. My question is, should we be able to tell from the endings on the words themselves whether or not they are plural without knowing the vocabulary word already? (For example, on "casar", we wouldn't know if the word already ended in "r" in the singular.) I don't think we can tell if they are plural unless we already know the vocab. word, but I wanted to make sure I hadn't missed something in the lesson. Thanks.

Anyone up for the next two answers to Gate7ole's exercises?


----------



## gate7ole (Nov 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Elennainie _
> Gate7ole, I have a question about #3. My question is, should we be able to tell from the endings on the words themselves whether or not they are plural without knowing the vocabulary word already? (For example, on "casar", we wouldn't know if the word already ended in "r" in the singular.) I don't think we can tell if they are plural unless we already know the vocab. word, but I wanted to make sure I hadn't missed something in the lesson. Thanks.



You're right that the 3rd exercise needs more than grammar knowledge. We can't know if an ending is because of the plural form or not. I guess experience will be needed in such occasions


P.S. I added another exercise of mine, as well as the exercises of the course to discuss them together.


----------



## Elennainie (Nov 30, 2002)

Cool - even more exercises! You are a good chapter leader, Gate7ole!! 

Since you added some more, I'll go ahead with two more. 

#2:
C. i Isil ar i Anar..........the mistake is that "i" is not needed before proper nouns, and Isil and Anar are proper nouns in Quenya.

D. minë liër nu aran..........the mistake is that "liër" is plural and "minë" (one) does not agree with a plural noun. As it is written, it says "one peoples under a king", which doesn't make sense. Lië, the singular form of the noun "people" should be used instead. Also, lië plural is lier, not liër. The diaresis drops off because the "e" is no longer final.


----------



## Húrin Thalion (Dec 1, 2002)

The I'll take the last three in exercise 2 then:

E. i malli (mallë ~ road) This is entirely correct, means "the roads".


F. i eldar nu i aran (where aran is a particular king) Correct, meaning "The elves under the king".

G. minë tári ar i vender. This is not correct since the word Vendë becomes vendi in plural. If correct it would mean: "A queen and her maidens".

About the third and fourth exercise: I can solve a few of them but as G7O and Elenainnie have pointed out I do not think that we should use words that are outside of our vocabulary.

Goodbye for tonight, the clock is 23:15 here and I start early tomorrow morning. (Early for me is 9:00).

Húrin Thalion


----------



## gate7ole (Dec 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Húrin Thalion _
> E. i malli (mallë ~ road) This is entirely correct, means "the roads".



I'm sorry but as your professor I must say that this sentence has an error and it is not correct. The noun "mallë" is irregular and its plural is maller, despite the general rule.


----------



## Húrin Thalion (Dec 2, 2002)

Oh you are right. thank you, I was probably thinking of Swedish where we add R to alll vowles to get plural.

*Is there not anyone else who will continue?* 

Húrin


----------



## Elennainie (Dec 2, 2002)

> About the third and fourth exercise: I can solve a few of them but as G7O and Elenainnie have pointed out I do not think that we should use words that are outside of our vocabulary.


 Actually, I was just trying to figure out if I had missed something in the lesson. I don't mind using a few extra vocabulary words for exercises in this lesson, since our vocab. is so limited right now.


----------



## gate7ole (Dec 2, 2002)

One more simple "exercise". After reading this chapter, I finally understood what does our famous book means.
So, what does "Quenta Silmarillion" mean exactly?
Hints: the -on endings means "of" and Quenta means "tale"


----------



## Elennainie (Dec 2, 2002)

> So, what does "Quenta Silmarillion" mean exactly?



Would that be "Tale of the Silmarils" ?


----------



## Lhunithiliel (Dec 3, 2002)

"Tale *of* or better *about* the Silmarils"

But can someone say how the word "Silmaril" has been formed? What's its meaning?


----------



## Elennainie (Dec 3, 2002)

> The Quneya word Silmarilli is said to derive from the name silima that Feanor gave to the substance from which they were made.


 from the Sil. Names Appendix

Also from the Appendix: "sil" to shine (with white or silver light); the moon, Isil comes from this same stem


----------



## Confusticated (Dec 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Elennainie _
> *from the Sil. Names Appendix
> 
> Also from the Appendix: "sil" to shine (with white or silver light); the moon, Isil comes from this same stem *


I think that can also be 'silma'. If you take a look in the etymologies in _The Lost Road_,then 'ril' - glitter, and (maybe: rilya - glitterng light). 

Does anyone know anything about the way these words silma and ril are put together? Does 'ma' have a purpose all it's own?
I think that will be the key to understanding the word Simaril. 
I would expect something like:
"white light that glitters"?
or "glittering white light"
?
By the way, the next one:
i eldar nu i aran - hmm maybe "i elda nu i aran" is what you are looking for? I really have no idea. 

It seems correct to me as is.
"The elves under the king" Unless it is the name of a king in which case it should be "The Eldar under (King's name)"?

I hadn't answered because I'm not sure and I still haven't read the chapter. I'm just finishing that introduction about the languages. I was able to figure out most of the ones before this though, so I have learned a little.  Just wanted to let you guys know that I have been keeping a watch on the thread!


----------



## Elennainie (Dec 3, 2002)

> "glittering white light"


 OOOh, this sounds pretty!!! Tolkien's language is so elegant.



> Just wanted to let you guys know that I have been keeping a watch on the thread!


Glad to see you are still with us on the Quenya course, Nom.  Don't worry about catching up being difficult. Lesson 2 & 3 are pretty easy.


----------



## Elennainie (Dec 3, 2002)

G7o, since we'll have a new lesson this Friday, I was wondering if you would post the answers to all your exercises, so we can check ourselves.

Here's my shot at some more of them:
#3. Quendi - plural
tier - plural
casar -- not plural; plural is casari


----------



## gate7ole (Dec 4, 2002)

Keys to exercises:

1. Form the plural of the following words:
alda, anto, cirya, harma, macil, mornië, nóme, rassë, sangwa, seler,toron
aldar,antor,ciryar,harmar,macili,mornier,nomi, rassi, sangwar, seleri,toroni

2. Find if there is a mistake in the next phrases:
A. i ohtari
B. i aran ar roccor
C*. i Isil ar i Anar	->Isil ar Anar
D*. minë liër nu aran	->mine lië nu aran OR lier nu aran
E*. i malli ->i maller (irregular noun)
F. i eldar nu i aran
G*. minë tári ar i vender	->minë tári ar i vendi

3. Which of the following words are in plural?
Quendi*, tier*, casar, eleni*, anar, nér, lasser*
(the plurals have an asterisk)

4. Pair the words from the two lists:
i tier	the paths
maller	roads
lassë	leaf
i elen	the star
i-mar	the Earth
i-coimas	the lifebread
parmar	books
lambi	languages
máryat	her hands


----------



## Elennainie (Dec 4, 2002)

Thanks! How did everybody do? I got 2f wrong,  because I thought you weren't supposed to use an "i" before eldar, because it denotes an entire race, but then I read back in the lesson and it said if you were referring to just a group of a few individual elves and not the entire race, you can say "i eldar".


----------



## Elennainie (Dec 6, 2002)

*Quenya Lesson 2: Dual Plural & Stem Variation*

*Lesson 2: Dual Plural & Stem Variation begins here*

Hi there! Hope everybody had fun reading our second lesson, which is actually Lesson Three in the ardalambion course. Allow me to quote G7o for consistency and because he said it so well:


> The procedure I believe we should follow is the following. First I will provide the summary of the lesson. Also, I have made a few exercises and along with the given exercises of the course, they should be sufficient . I will post a few at the time and everyone will be welcome to give some answers. In order to work out, we shouldn’t rush and give all answers at once. Let many people be able to participate. Questions about the lesson as well as other remarks are welcome, too. We will try to cope with any problem that may arise, together.



Summary 
In addition to the normal plural formed with the endings -r & -i, Quenya has a dual plural, formed with the endings -u & -t. The dual plural refers to _two_ of something and is reserved for use with nouns that constitute a natural or logical pair. Examples of natural pairs include peu (lips), rancu (arms), and other body parts that naturally occur in two's. Examples of logical pairs include veru (husband & wife/married pair) and aldu (the Two Trees Telp.& Laur.) The dual plural is limited to a pair of things that are specially related to each other, as opposed to two things that just happen to be found together.

The ending -t is used to form dual plural unless the word already contains a "t" or a "d", in which case -u is used. (-u displaces the final vowel of a word ending in a vowel.) Some exceptions, left over from older Quenya, are veru and peu. In addition, Fauskanger guesses that all body part pairs take the -u ending. 

The topic of stem variation is also introduced. This refers to a change in the word when endings are added. In some cases, a long vowel is shortened when any ending is added. In other cases, a final consonant changes to a different consonant with the addition of any ending. Other stem variations are also possible, but we are reassured!  that "most Quenya words seem to be quite well-behaved, with no distinct 'stem' from to remember; you just add the ending and that's it." (Fausk.) Stem forms distinct from their vocabulary words may be memorized at the same time as their vocab. words, e.g. vocab word "talan", with its stem from "talam". The stem will be provided in parenthesis next to the vocab. word in the course word lists.

Lesson 3 was a short chapter, with dual plural being a simple concept. As for stem variation.....well, I guess you just can't get away from that sort of thing, even in Quenya!!


----------



## Elennainie (Dec 6, 2002)

Here are some initial exercises for us. Please just post the answers to a few at a time, as we've been doing, so everyone gets a chance to answer some. Our class is growing!!! 

1. Form the dual plural:
oron
harma
tári
rocco
talan
nér
nís
alda
aiwë
ranco
pé

2. Name 4 quenya words with a distinct stem form. Give both the word and its stem form.

3. Is there a mistake? If so, what is it?
a. atta ciryat
b. nísu
c. i sardi ar i roccor
d. minë talami nu aiwë
e. I Aiwer ar orontu
f. atta vendi ar atta néri nu aldu

4. Think of place names or character names from LotR or Sil. that include the following words:
a. hen
b. Isil
c. cirya
d. alda

5. Translate into English: 
a. atta aiwi nu minë alda 
b. aiwet nu oron 
c. hendu ar rancu 
d. minë cirya ar i tári 
e. aldu (on) orontu 
f. i aran ar i nér 

6. Translate into Quenya:
a. married pair 
b. pair of lips
c. the gate and a bird
d. two stones (any two) and two men (any two that happened to be together)
e. double gate under the twin peaks 
f. a woman and two suns

*************
Hope this is all coherent -- I was up late nursing my mom, who had surgery.


----------



## Confusticated (Dec 6, 2002)

Thanks a lot Elennainie!

1. Form the dual plural:
oron.........oront
harma.......harmu
tári...........taru


----------



## gate7ole (Dec 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Nóm _
> oron.........oront


I think that the correct dual form of oron is _orontu_, because it has the stem variation oront- and the dual form used here is the ending -u.
A hint I found that may help me use the correct endings and forms in general, is whether it sounds well. _Oront_ seems to me that it lacks something, and ending. Of course it cannot be used as a definite rule, but it may be a quick way to correct the most obvious mistakes.


rocco -> roccot
talan -> talamu (??)
nér -> néru


----------



## Elennainie (Dec 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by gate7ole _
> *rocco -> roccot
> talan -> talamu (??)
> nér -> néru *



I believe that the accent drops off of nér when you add an ending, since its stem is ner. So it would be neru.


----------



## gate7ole (Dec 6, 2002)

You're right professor Ellenainie.

Other exercises:
5.
a. two birds under one tree
b. a pair of birds under a mountain

6.
a.veru
b.peu


----------



## Húrin Thalion (Dec 8, 2002)

The I'll finish up exercise 1: 

Nís=Nisu

Alda=Aldu

Aiwë=Aiwu

Ranco=Rancu

Pé=Peru(?)

1. Form the dual plural:
oron
harma
tári
rocco
talan
nér
nís
alda
aiwë
ranco
pé

Húrin Thalion


----------



## gate7ole (Dec 8, 2002)

Húrin Thalion,
*Pé* becomes *Peu*
The diphthong *eu* is _acceptable_ in Quenya, so there is no need to insert a letter between the *e* and *u*.

3.
a. correct
b. nísu ----> nisu (the accept is dropped)
c. correct

4.
a. Amon Hen (~ “the hill of sight”, the place that the fellowship broke)
b. Isildur
c. Ciryaher (Gondorian king)
d. Aldarion (Númenórean king)


----------



## Elennainie (Dec 8, 2002)

G7o, 3a. "atta ciryat" might be better without the "atta", which is redundant and translates "two a couple of ships".
Lesson 3 says "ciryat would only be a kind of spoken shorthand for the full phrase atta ciryar..." So, if one uses the dual plural, one doesn't need the word "atta".

3b. nísu is correctly written nissu. The stem for nís is niss- . You are right, the accent is dropped. The single "s" also becomes double "ss"

4. Great job! I didn't even think of Ciryaher. I was thinking Círdan, but yours is better.


----------



## Húrin Thalion (Dec 10, 2002)

Ok I will take on exercise 5 then:

1. Two birds under one tree.

2: A pair of birds under a mountain.

3: A pair of eyes and a pair of arms.

4: Oe ship under the queen.

5: A pair of trees on a pair of mountains

6: The king and the man.

I also wonder if anyone is interested in an online quenya practice session on sunday? 

Húrin Thalion


----------



## Gil-Galad (Dec 10, 2002)

When will be the next lesson?I printed this lesson and the previous one and I'm impatient to read the next one!


----------



## Húrin Thalion (Dec 11, 2002)

As soon as the exercises that we can solve are done. But I think that we could set the time for the new lesson to thursday if it's alright to you. Let the reading commence, but don't forget the exercise left.

Húrin Thalion


----------



## Elennainie (Dec 11, 2002)

Moving on to the next chapt. sounds great to me.  Will you be the professor, Hurin? When would you like me to post the answers to all the exercises?


----------



## Húrin Thalion (Dec 11, 2002)

You can post the correct answers to the ones that are doen but wait a while with number six. 

Húrin Thalion


----------



## gate7ole (Dec 11, 2002)

Exercise 2:
Besides the words provided at the course, another word with a distinct stem form is 
*Silmaril*
with stem form 
*Silmarill-*
which makes the plural of the word:
*Silmarilli* with double 'l'


Exercise 6:
a. veru
b. peu
c. i ando ar aiwë
d. atta sardi ar atta neri
e. andu nu i orontu
f. nís ar atta anari


----------



## Elennainie (Dec 11, 2002)

Excellent job on lesson 2, everybody!  Gold stars for everyone...

Here are the answers to the exercises:
1. Form the dual plural:
oron...................orontu 
harma...............harmu or harmat? *please see below!!!
tári..................taru
rocco...............roccot
talan................talamu
nér...................neru
nís...................nissu
alda.................aldu
aiwë.................aiwet
ranco...............rancu
pé..................peu

2. Name 4 quenya words with a distinct stem form. Give both the word and its stem form.
Several, including:
hen (hend-)
nér (ner-)
nís (niss-)
talan (talam-)
sar (sard-)
oron (oront-)
and G7o's addition Silmaril (Silmarill-)

3. Is there a mistake? If so, what is it?
a. atta ciryat........"atta" is unnecessary or change ciryat to ciryar
b. nísu.................no accent and double the s (nissu)
c. i sardi ar i roccor.............no mistake
d. minë talami nu aiwë..........."talami" should be "talan" b/c it's singular
e. I Aiwer ar orontu..............no mistake
f. atta vendi ar atta néri nu aldu.........no accent on "neri"

4. Think of place names or character names from LotR or Sil. that include the following words: answers will vary - (see G7o's post for some good ones) 
a. hen
b. Isil
c. cirya
d. alda

5. Translate into English: 
a. atta aiwi nu minë alda.......two birds under one tree
b. aiwet nu oron..................a pair of birds under a mountain
c. hendu ar rancu ...............a pair of eyes and a pair of arms
d. minë cirya ar i tári............one ship and the queen
e. aldu (on) orontu..............either "the two trees (meaning those in Valinor)" or "a pair of trees" on a pair of mountains
f. i aran ar i nér...................the king and the man

6. Translate into Quenya:
a. married pair.......................veru
b. pair of lips.........................peu
c. the gate and a bird.............i ando ar aiwë
d. two stones (any two) and two men (any two that happened to be together)..........................atta sardi ar atta neri
e. double gate under the twin peaks........andu nu i orontu
f. a woman and two suns.........nís ar atta anari
Does everyone agree about number 1, harmu? should it be harmat, since you are supposed to try -t first and then use -u only if there is already a t or a d? I'm confused on this point. Not all words ending in a vowel take -u for dual plural -right? or do they? I would love some clarification on this. Thanks.


----------



## gate7ole (Dec 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Elennainie _
> Does everyone agree about number 1, harmu? should it be harmat, since you are supposed to try -t first and then use -u only if there is already a t or a d? I'm confused on this point. Not all words ending in a vowel take -u for dual plural -right? or do they? I would love some clarification on this. Thanks. [/B]



Well, my personal opinion is that the correct one is *harmat*. As stated in the course the use of dual form is not completely clarified and the professor suggested that we use a _-t_ ending excpet the special occasions of "body parts", d's and t's, nound ending with a consonant. *harma* is not "irregular" in that sense, so why not use the regular dual form?


----------



## Elennainie (Dec 11, 2002)

I reread the section about that, and I agree with you that "harmat" seems correct because it does not have a t or d.



> The duals Tolkien listed in the Plotz Letter, ciryat "a couple of ships" and Lesset " a couple of leaves...confirm that a word with no t or d in them take the dual ending -t.



(Btw, g7o, I asked you in the hall of lectures thread, but I think you might not have seen it.  My question was, do you know of a specific place in the Letters where Tolkien talks about philosophy or specifically metaphysics in his writings. You had written that the Letters would be a good place to look for that topic. Congratulations on your new position in the guild!)


----------



## Calimehtar (Dec 13, 2002)

When is someone going to post for Lesson III?  Has anyone asked to be the "Professor" for that lesson?


----------



## Húrin Thalion (Dec 13, 2002)

I am writing lesson three sumary right now BB. It is in the middle of the night here so I don't think I can make all the exercises tonight. I will do three exercises tonight and I have also asked gate7ole to make some. Sorry if I'm a little late out, I thought it was sunday, my bad. The third lesson will come up tonight. I promise.

Húrin Thalion


----------



## Húrin Thalion (Dec 13, 2002)

*Quenya lesson three: Adjective and copula*

*Lesson 3: Adjective and copula begins here*

Ok here it comes, my sumary: 

I will not in this sumary describe what an adjective is, that is in the course so let's start with the quenya. Most adjectives end in the letters -a or -ë there are a few that end with consonant too like firin, dead. You can place an adjective in front of or behind the noun for example "Lintë yuldar" could also be said as "Yuldar lintë". This is often used in titles or standing Homeric prefix's, "Elendil voronda" Elendil the faithful. You can use a copula which is the word that binds the adjective and plural together in English, is/are. Example: "Voronda ná Elendil"=Elendil is faithful. When in plural ná (is) becomes nar (notice the dropped accent). Adjectives do not have articles as "I". To put an adjective in plural you must change the ending.

-a becomes -ë

-ë becomes -i

-ëa becomes -ië (to avoid double ë)

Words ending with consonants get -i at the ending

Quenya adjectives agree in number; if an adjective describes a plural noun or more than one noun, the adjective must be plural as well. 

That was it for the sumary, now for the exercises:

1. Translate into English:

A. Morë rocco.
B. Calimë hendu.
C. Neldë firini neri.
D. Vanyë aiwi.
E. Tári ná taura nís.
F. I oronti nar altë.
G. Aran taura (two possible translations!)
H. I nér ar i nís nar sailë. 

2. Translate into Quenya:

I. The white gate.
J. A great ship.
K. The floor is red.
L. One black stone and three white stones.
M. Wise kings are mighty men.
N. The mighty man and the beautiful woman are evil.
O. Elves are beautiful.
P. The Elves are a beautiful people.

These two are made by Fauskanger, theose who now follow ar amde by me:

3. Which of these adjectives are in plural?

A. Morë, calima, firini, ninqui, umië, saila, tauri. Translate!

4. Make a correct sentence and translate out of these words:

A. arani i taurë wendi saili ar.
B. aiwi vany nu andi.
C. aldi ar atta aiwi neldë
D. lië neldë ciryat atta ar

Forgive me if I did something wrong the clock is now 02 00 in the night. Forgive me for the misunderstanding, I will post more tomorrow...

Húrin Thalion


----------



## Elennainie (Dec 13, 2002)

> Forgive me if I did something wrong the clock is now 02 00 in the night. Forgive me for the misunderstanding, I will post more tomorrow...


 You didn't do anything wrong, Hurin. And thank you for staying up so late to be our professor!  

I guess it was too much to hope for that we might actually get some *verbs* in this chapter....


----------



## gate7ole (Dec 14, 2002)

A few more exercises:

*5.* Find the mistake.
1. i vanyar nissi
2. Vanyar nar sailë
3. atta ninquë aldar nu i oron alta
4. i aran ar i tári ná taura
5. talani carni
6. i morë oronti nar úmei
7. neldë taurë andor
8. atta sardi nu morë aldu


*6.* Group the following phrases in two groups according to their difference in meaning, after you have found the wrong(s) one(s). Also, for each phrase, indicate which word we want to emphasize (not always clear).
sailë Eldar
Eldar sailë
i Eldar nar sailë
sailë nar Eldar
i Eldar sailë
nar sailë Eldar
i Eldar sailë nar


*7.* From the first sentence construct the second one, in a few steps. At each step you will be allowed to change at most two words (e.g. form a plural from a singular word OR delete a word somewhere and put another somewhere else). Also each step should have a coherent sentence with a meaning (e.g not “i aran ar i tári nar oronti!”). And make sure that each sentence has exactly 10 words.
A.atta aldar ar i mori sardi nu i ninquë oron
B.i taura aran ar i saila tári nar vanyë Eldar


----------



## Elennainie (Dec 14, 2002)

3.A. 
morë - singular, black
calima - singular, bright
firini - plural, dead
ninqui - plural, white


----------



## gate7ole (Dec 15, 2002)

1.
A. Black horse
B. (A pair of) bright eyes
C. Three dead men

2.
A. i ninquë ando
B. alta cirya
C. i talan ná carnë


4.
taurë arani ar i sailë vendi -> mighty kings and the wise maidens

vanyë aiwi nu andor -> beautiful birds under gates


----------



## Húrin Thalion (Dec 15, 2002)

Some of the adjectives in exercise four should be in plural Gate7, otherwise it is all correct.


----------



## Elennainie (Dec 17, 2002)

1.
d. beautiful birds
e. a queen is a mighty woman
f. The mountains are great.

2.
l. minë morë sar ar neldë ninqui sardi
m. Sailë arani nar taurë neri.
n. I taura nér ar i vanya nís nar umië.

5. a. "i vanyar nissi" should be "i vanye nissi" the beautiful women
b. there is no subject of the sentence? Vanyar is an adjective, not a noun? beautiful are wise?
c. should be ninqui to agree with plural aldar
two white trees under the great mountain


----------



## gate7ole (Dec 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Elennainie _
> *
> b. there is no subject of the sentence? Vanyar is an adjective, not a noun? beautiful are wise?
> *


there are some adjectives that can be used as nouns. Such is "Vanya" (e.g. the first elven clan, the Vanyar). The trick here is that when such an adjective is used as a noun, is gets the plural of the nouns (i.e. -r). So the plural of *vanya* becomes *vanyë* when used as an adjective and *vanyar* when used as a noun!
Thus, b is correct.


----------



## Elennainie (Dec 18, 2002)

Where are the rest of our classmates?  Come on, guys, please post your answers to the exercises Húrin Thalion and gate7ole made for us!


----------



## gate7ole (Dec 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Elennainie _
> *Where are the rest of our classmates?  Come on, guys, please post your answers to the exercises Húrin Thalion and gate7ole made for us!  *


It seems that there isn't much participation. That's ok. Even if we are only the 3 of us, we will continue this difficult task. Right? (And you'll see how they will envy us when in a few months we'll be discussing in Quenya only ).
For the next chapter, I can do the summary but not before Sunday. And after we've covered that chapter (which will provide us with a few nouns), we'll go back and repeat the 4 chapters and maybe do some tests, before continuing.


----------



## Calimehtar (Dec 19, 2002)

Sorry I havent posted in a week or two. Been real busy, this week was Semester Exams. Let me read over the summary again and I'll answer some of them.


----------



## Calimehtar (Dec 19, 2002)

1G. Aran taura (two possible translations!)
"Mighty King" 
1H. I nér ar i nís nar sailë.
"The man and the woman are wise."


----------



## Elennainie (Dec 20, 2002)

> It seems that there isn't much participation. That's ok. Even if we are only the 3 of us, we will continue this difficult task. Right? (And you'll see how they will envy us when in a few months we'll be discussing in Quenya only ).


 We'll be the "Quenya Fellowship"  and we will prevail in our difficult task! I truly want to thank you guys who have hung in there with the course. I couldn't learn Quenya on my own, and it is really nice to have you as classmates.



> we'll go back and repeat the 4 chapters and maybe do some tests, before continuing.



I was thinking the same thing about the test. It would help to solidify our knowledge and be more like real school where you must prepare intensively for one test. What do you think about a live, timed test? Everyone will have the same questions and we actually get graded. It's good for incentive, imo.


----------



## Calimehtar (Dec 20, 2002)

So we aren't moving on to Lesson 4? (Thats good for me. I'd like to be able to look over the others before moving on.) Or are we moving on to Lesson 4, then we'll go back and study the "Lesson A" group that we downloaded?


----------



## Calimehtar (Dec 20, 2002)

OK, I understand now. Someone will post their Summary for Lesson 4 today. Then we'll study and then have tests. Sounds GOOD! Who will be making the test?


----------



## Húrin Thalion (Dec 21, 2002)

Well... I do not think that anyone has said that they want to make a sumary yet. Anyone volunteering?

Húrin Thalion


----------



## Elennainie (Dec 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by gate7ole _
> *For the next chapter, I can do the summary but not before Sunday. And after we've covered that chapter (which will provide us with a few nouns), we'll go back and repeat the 4 chapters and maybe do some tests, before continuing. *



I believe gate7ole is posting the summary for lesson 4 on Sunday or later. Húrin & gate7ole, could you please post the answers to the lesson 3 exercises before Sunday so we can check ourselves? BilbosBane, do you want to solve some more of the exercises? The last 3 in #5 are left, and all of #6 & #7.

Here are some more attempts:
4.C. Atta aldar ar neldë aiwi..........two trees and three birds
D. Neldë lier ar atta ciryar..........Three peoples (as in ethnic groups) 
and two birds
or Neldë lier ar ciryat (without atta b/c that would be redundant if 
using dual plural form)..................Three peoples and a pair of birds

5.D. ná should be nar, plural b/c a king and queen together make 
two; also taura should be taurë for the same reason
I aran ar i tári nar taurë................The king and the queen are 
mighty.
E."Talani" should be "talami" b/c of stem variation. 
Talami carni......................red floors
F.should be "i mori oronti nar umië"........the dark mountains are evil.
Does the accent fall off the "u" in "úmei" when you add an ending, making it "umië" rather than "úmië"?


----------



## Finduilas (Dec 21, 2002)

Hey,am I free to join you.I have printed the pages that have been posted so far and I'm syudying them now.Soon I'll be ready and I'd like to join you if you want me of course.


----------



## Húrin Thalion (Dec 21, 2002)

aOf course you are welcome Finduilas! Always nice with more people who want to join us on our long and hard journey towards mastering the fair and elusive language Quenya.

Húrin Thalion


----------



## Finduilas (Dec 21, 2002)

Thank you.But I saw only lesson three ,please , tell me where are the other lessons.


----------



## Húrin Thalion (Dec 21, 2002)

Farther down, close to the bottom. Start with "Quenya lesson 1/2"


----------



## gate7ole (Dec 22, 2002)

SOLUTIONS TO EXERCISES

*5.*
1. i vanyar nissi -> i vanyë nissi
2. Vanyar nar sailë
3. atta ninquë aldar nu i oron alta ->atta ninqui aldar nu i oron alta
4. i aran ar i tári ná taura -> i aran ar I tári nar taurë
5. talani carni -> talami carni
6. i morë oronti nar úmei -> i mori oronti nar úmië
7. neldë taurë andor
8. atta sardi nu morë aldu -> atta sardi nu mori aldu

*6.*
Group the following phrases in two groups according to their difference in meaning, after you have found the wrong(s) one(s). Also, for each phrase, indicate which word we want to emphasize (not always clear).
The wrong one: nar sailë Eldar
Group A:
i _Eldar_ nar sailë
i _Eldar_ sailë
i Eldar _sailë_ nar

Group B:
_sailë Eldar_
_Eldar_ sailë
_sailë_ nar Eldar


*7.*One possible solution:

atta aldar ar i mori sardi nu i ninquë oron

atta arani ar i mori roccor nu i ninquë oron
atta arani ar i saila tári nu i ninquë oron
i aran ar i saila tári nu i ninquë oron
i taura aran ar i saila tári nu ninquë oron
i taura aran ar i saila tári nu vanyë aldar
i taura aran ar i saila tári nar vanyë Eldar

i taura aran ar i saila tári nar vanyë Eldar


----------



## gate7ole (Dec 22, 2002)

*Quenya Lesson 4: Verbs (Present Tense) - Superlative*

*Lesson 4: Verbs (Present Tense) - Superlative begins here*


SUMMARY

*Verbs
Present Tense*

The verbs in Quenya are divided in two categories:

1. Primary (which don’t have endings in *–a*)
mat- “to eat”
tac- “to fasten”
tul- “to come”
mel- “to love”

The present tense of this category is formed by adding an *–a* at the end of the verb and lengthening the stem-vowel.
The stem-vowel is the vowel of the verb-root and normally is the first vowel of the verb.
e.g.
mat -> máta
tul -> túla
mel -> méla
quet -> quéta


2. A-stems / Derived (which have endings *–ya, -ta, -na …*):
calya- "to illuminate"
tulta- "to send for, to fetch, to summon"
harna- "to wound"
mapa- "to grasp, to seize"

The present tense is probably formed in a same way as the first category: here we replace the *–a* ending with the *–ëa* and then lengthen the stem-vowel.
e.g.
ora -> órëa

but in cases of A-stems with longer endings (like *–ya, -ta*), the lengthening of the vowel is not permitted before a cluster of consonants, so the accent is dropped.
e.g.
tulta -> tultëa
calya -> calyëa

However this last rule isn’t attested in any written passage but derives from the other rules.



*Plural of Verbs.*
The verb always agrees in number with the object. The plural of the present tense is very easy. We just put the ending *–r*.
e.g.
mátar (~are eating)
calyëar (~are illuminating)

*Position of Verbs.*
The normal word order is:
Object – Verb – Subject
However the order can be changed (especially in poetry) if there is a need for dramatic tense. But even then we must be careful not to confuse the reader about which is the object and which the subject.
e.g.
Auta i lómë! “Passes the night!” (Emphasis on the verb)




*Adjectives
Superlative*
The superlative form of an adjective is formed by adding the *an-* in front of the word.
This prefix remains unchanged if the word is beginning in a vowel or in *c-, n-, qu-, t-, v-, w-,* and *y-*.
e.g
an + alta "great (in size)" = analta "greatest"
an + calima "bright" = ancalima "brightest" (our sole attested example!)
an + norna "tough" = annorna "toughest" 
an + quanta "full" = anquanta "fullest"
an + vanya "beautiful" = anvanya "most beautiful"

The prefix *an-* however may change according to the first letter of the adjective.
e.g.
an + pitya "small" = ampitya "smalles” (p-)
an + lauca "warm" = allauca "warmest"	(l-)
an + ringa "cold" = arringa "coldest"	(r-)
an + sarda "hard" = assarda "hardest"	(s-)
an + moina "dear" = ammoina "dearest"	(m-)

For example:
Eärendil elenion ancalima	~Eärendil brightest of the stars.


----------



## gate7ole (Dec 22, 2002)

Exercises:


1. Form the present tense singular and plural of the verbs:
mapa-, tir-, ala-, caita-, caita-, tulta-, linda-, mat-, cenda-

2. Form the superlative of the following adjectives:
tiuca, vanya, saila, úmëa, taura, lehta, raica, írima, melda

3. Find the errors:
I ansaila tári céndëa i parma
I taurë Eldar mapar canta ciryar
I aran tultëa neldë néri.
I anvanyar aiwë lindëa nú i alda
I nér ar i nís máta nú I tasar
I Nauco mápa i analta sar
Canda firini aiwi caitar (on) i talan.

4. Translate into English:
A. I nís lálëa.
B. I antiuca Nauco máta.
C. I tári tíra i aran.
D. I analta oron ná taura.
E. I nér tultëa i anvanya vendë.
F. I aiwë lindëa.
G. I Naucor mápëar i canta Eldar.
H. I antaura aran ná saila.

5. Translate into Quenya:
I. The woman is watching the greatest (/biggest) ship. 
J. The most evil (/evilest) men are dead.
K. The Elf is seizing the book.
L. Four men are lying under a tree.
M. The wisest Elf is reading a book.
N. The king and the queen are reading the book.
O. The birds are singing.
P. The four Dwarves are watching a bird.


----------



## Elennainie (Dec 23, 2002)

Prof. G7o, thanks for the summary and exercises. 

Yay! now we can say "i love you" in quenya!  Inyë tye-méla! - quenya, the language of wooing.


----------



## Elennainie (Dec 26, 2002)

1. Form the present tense singular and plural of the verbs:

mápëa, mápëar
tíra, tírar
álëa, álëar
caitëa, caitëar


2. Form the superlative of the following adjectives:

antiuca, anvanya, assaila, anúmëa

3. Find the errors:

I ansaila  tári céndëa i parma.

"ansaila" should be "assaila". "céndëa" should be "cendëa", without the accent b/c the vowel is not lengthened before a consonantal cluster. 
The wisest queen is reading the book.


----------



## Calimehtar (Dec 26, 2002)

I was wondering if anyone was going to post. lol I was scared to... didn't know if we were supposed to or not. I'll give some answers in a second.


----------



## Calimehtar (Dec 26, 2002)

4. Translate into English:
A. I nís lálëa.
B. I antiuca Nauco máta.
C. I tári tíra i aran.

A: The woman laughed.
B: The fat Dwarf ate. (In antuica, was does the "an-" do to tuica?
C: The queen watched the Dwaf eat. (Should that a be after mat?)
D: The queen watched the king.

Sorry if those 2 questions seem stupid; I haven't finished reading Lesson 4.


----------



## Calimehtar (Dec 26, 2002)

I was wondering what you would think of this, now that we've learned a good number of words. We could open a thread where we write a short story in Quenya. We could either do it where I'd write a little then you write a little and so on, or we could all just write our own story. I think this would be pretty fun. And it'd help us learn, I think.


----------



## Elennainie (Dec 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by BilbosBane _
> *B: The fat Dwarf ate. (In antuica, was does the "an-" do to tuica?*



"An-" added to an adjective, makes it a superlative adjective. In this case, it makes "fat", "fattest". Superlative is like to the highest degree, the most fat (fattest), most wise (wisest), most tall (tallest), etc.


----------



## Elennainie (Dec 26, 2002)

About the story idea, sounds fine to me, but our vocab. is still pretty limited, and everything would have to be in the present tense. "The dwarf is reading. The dwarf is seizing. The dwarf is eating".... you couldn't ever say what the dwarf was doing before or will do. Would that work???


----------



## Calimehtar (Dec 26, 2002)

Well, I guess we can wait a little while before we do that. But that'd be a good group activity. (BTW, sorry for posting 3 times instead of it all being in 1.)


----------



## Calimehtar (Dec 26, 2002)

D. I analta oron ná taura.
E. I nér tultëa i anvanya vendë.
F. I aiwë lindëa.
G. I Naucor mápëar i canta Eldar.
H. I antaura aran ná saila.

The greatest mountain is mighty.
The man summoned the most beautiful maiden.
The bird sang.
The Dwarves grasped the four Elves.
The mightiest king is wise. 

OK, I'll leave the rest of the excercises to the others. BTW.... where are the others??? Also, I want your suggestions on this. I am going to make a new member name and I was going to make it Elven. I got on Aldalambion to look up some words. I found a few. Heres some and if you know a good name, tell it to me.

Calimehtar - Bright Swordsman
Hallaner - Tall Man
Ingolmo - Loremaster
Fea (word for OF) Endor - Spirit of Middle Earth
Hallamacar - Tall Swordsman

Thats pretty much all I came up with. Ellananie (sp?) what does that mean? It is Elvish, isnt it? So far, my favorite of those is Calimehtar.


----------



## Elennainie (Dec 26, 2002)

No, let's go ahead, if you want. It's a fun idea.  You start the thread. I would love some more practice.

**Attention all Quenya classmates:**
Let's start working on making the test for lessons 1-4. I made 6 translate from English to Quenya sentences already. Why don't we each make 12 sentences for the test, both english to quenya and quenya to english, making certain they are correct. We can either ask someone not in the course to administer it for us, or we could try to do it over IM. What do you guys want to do?

Also, Gate7ole, you could probably help us with this, since you are deputy guildmaster. I suggest we consolidate the four lesson threads into one thread titled "Quenya Lessons 1 - 4". We are going to have a lot more threads for the upcoming lessons and I don't want to muck up the Guild of Tolkienology with 30 threads about Quenya. Does everyone agree?


----------



## Elennainie (Dec 26, 2002)

Just saw your post. I like the first and the last names the best. Elennainië means "star lament". Did you get my PM?


----------



## Calimehtar (Dec 26, 2002)

Yes and the answer to your PM is yes


----------



## Elennainie (Dec 26, 2002)

5. Translate into Quenya:
I. I nís tíra analta cirya.
J. I anúmië neri nar firini.
K. I Elda mápëa i parma.
L. Canta neri caitëar nu alda.


----------



## gate7ole (Dec 27, 2002)

BilbosBane, thank you for the your ideas.
About the exercices, be careful that all the verbs are in present tense (continuous), while you translated them as past.
So, the phrase:
"I nís lálëa."
says
"The woman is laughing".
The same goes with all the exercises of the chapter.

The idea with the story is very interesting. I agree though with Elennainie that we must wait a little until we learn some more tenses.

Also, I agree to join the 4 threads in one, but I'm not a Mod and can't do it. I will ask from one though to do it.

Finally about the test, I had also thought of a similar way to do them. All of us independently will write some phrases and in a way test each other. We can do it right after the holidays.


----------



## Elennainie (Dec 27, 2002)

Thanks for asking a mod about the four threads for us, Gate7ole.

That sounds good about giving the test to one another, but wouldn't it be more fair to give the same exact test? You'd know your own questions, of course, but everyone would have that same advantage. What does Hurin think? We haven't heard from him yet.

Nevermind, that won't work either, then we'd know all the answers to all the question before time....arrrggghh. I still think having a neutral person in the guild administer the test would work best. That way, we'd only know the answers to our own questions and only the administor would know the rest.


----------



## Calimehtar (Dec 27, 2002)

I say we take the test aroun next Tuesday or Wednnesday. When did you have planned? "right after the holidays" you mean after Christmas or New Years?
'


----------



## Calimehtar (Dec 27, 2002)

I am very sorry if I am clogging up the thread. Should I use the Common Quenya Thread for this kind of stuff? I was just wondering if we are the only three left in the Quenya Group. We are the only ones who have posted for this thread, but I guess it could be that everyone is busy with the holidays or something. 
Elannanie, I asked Beorn about changing my name and keeping my post number, he told me to e-mail the Webmaster about it, so I did. I hope he lets me change it!


----------



## Húrin Thalion (Dec 29, 2002)

I am sorry all because I haven't yet posted here. I have found it a little hard to get the time for the course the past days but I am still on and will be posting here soon. 

Húrin Thalion


----------



## gate7ole (Jan 3, 2003)

Keys:

1. Form the present tense singular and plural of the verbs:
mapa-, tir-, ala-, caita-, tulta-, linda-, mat-, cenda-
mápëa, tíra, álëa, caitëa, tultëa, lindëa , máta, cendëa
mápëar,tírar,álëar,caitëar,tultëar,lindëar, mátar,cendëar

2. Form the superlative of the following adjectives:
tiuca, vanya, saila, úmëa, taura, lehta, raica, írima, melda
antuica, anvanya, assaila, anúmëa, antaura, allehat, arraica, anírima, ammelda

3. Find the errors:
I ansaila tári céndëa i parma -> I assaila tári cendëa I parma
I taurë Eldar mapar canta ciryar -> I taurë Eldar mápear canta ciryar
I aran tultëa neldë néri. -> correct
I anvanyar aiwë lindëa nú i alda -> I anvanya aiwë lindëa nú i alda
I nér ar i nís máta nú I tasar -> I nér ar i nís mátar nú i tasar
I Nauco mápa i analta sar -> I Nauco máëpa i analta sar
Canda firini aiwi caitar (on) i talan. -> Canda firini aiwi caitëar (on) i talan

4.
A. The woman is laughing.
B. The fattest Dwarf is eating.
C. The queen is watching the king.
D. The greatest mountain is mighty.
E. The man is summoning the most beautiful maiden.
F. The bird is singing.
G. The Dwarves are seizing the four Elves.
H. The mightiest king is wise.

5.
I. I nís tíra i analta cirya.
J. I anúmië neri nar firini.
K. I Elda mápëa i parma.
L. Canta neri caitëar nu alda.
M. I assaila Elda cendëa parma (an-saila becoming assaila by assimilation)
N. I aran ar i tári cendëar i parma.
O. I aiwi lindëar.
P. I canta Naucor tírar aiwë.


----------



## Calimehtar (Jan 12, 2003)

*Quenya Lesson 5: Past Tense*

Lesson V: Past Tense

*1)* In English, many past tense verbs are formed by adding –ed. Quenya is similar. You normally add an ending to the verbal stem. With what we know, all past tense verbs end in –ë, most of the time as –në. 
orta-----------ortanë
ora------------oranë
hehta---------hehtanë
ulya-----------ulyanë

*Primary Verbs*
*2)* Whenever the stem of a primary verb doesn’t end in the consonants m, n, or r, adding –në would cause a consonant cluster. Instead, you will use an infix. An infix is like a suffix and prefix except instead of going at the beginning or ending of a word, it goes in the middle.
mat-------------mantë
hat--------------hantë
*3)* Before the consonant p, the infix is m in place of n.
top--------------tompë
*4)* Before the consonant c, the infix is in place of n.
*5)* If adding the past tense ending –në to a primary verb creates consonant clusters of tn, cn, pn, then the n and the consonant before it swap places.
tn----------	nt
cn----------ñc
pn---------	mp
*6)* Primary verbs ending in l form their past tense with –lë.
vil----------	villë
*7)* If a verb ends in r but their root word ended in d do not use the suffix –në. Instead, it uses the infix ndë.
rer---------	rendë
hyar-------	hyandë
ser--------	sendë
-----------------------
Summary of Lesson Six: While various irregular formations occur, it would seem that the past tense of Quenya verbs is typically formed according to these rules: A-stem verbs simply receive the ending -në. The "primary" or ending-less verbs can also receive this ending if their last consonant is -r or -m, probably also -n (no examples). If added to a primary verb in -l, the ending -në turns into -lë (resulting in a double ll, e.g. villë as the past tense of vil- "fly"). Primary verbs ending in one of the consonants p, t, c have past tenses constructed by adding the ending -ë combined with nasal-infixion intruding before the last consonant of the verbal stem; the infix manifests as m before p (hence tompë as the past tense of top- "cover"), otherwise as n (hence mantë as the past tense of mat- "eat"). 
------------------------


----------



## Calimehtar (Jan 12, 2003)

*Excercises:* 

1. Translate into English:
A. I nér cendanë i parma.
B. I Naucor manter.
C. I aran tultanë i tári.
D. Nís lindanë.
E. I vendi tirner i Elda.
F. I lempë roccor caitaner nu i alta tasar.
G. I eleni siller.
H. I Nauco cennë rocco.

2. Translate into Quenya:
I. A Dwarf found the treasure.
J. The Elf spoke.
K. The horse jumped.
L. The king loved the Elves.
M. A man wrote five books.
N. The queen rose.
O. The kings possessed great treasures.
P. The king and the queen summoned four Elves and five Dwarves.

Those are just the two from the lesson, I will add mine tomorrow after school. (Sorry for not doing it sooner.)


----------



## Elennainie (Jan 13, 2003)

Very nice, clear summary, Calimehtar - good job!


----------



## gate7ole (Jan 13, 2003)

Two more exercises.

3. Fill the gaps with appropriate verbs:
1. I nér _____ i analta sar ar _____ I harma.
2. (Once) i saila Elda _____ parma. (Now), i nís _____ i parma.
3. I úmië neri _____ minë nís, ______ i rancu ar ______ (at her).
4. Isil _____ nu i calimë eleni.
5. I roccor _____ alta sar.
6. Aiwë _____ (when) i Nauco _____ ar ______ (it).
7. I tári ____ lembë vendi ar i aran _____ (to them).
8. (Yesterday), i neri _____ ar ______ nu i tasar. (Today they) ____ firini.


4. Find the errors:
1. Ii saila Elda quetë alta parma.
2. Neldë vanyar roccor camper i ando.
3. I neri mataner ar I nissi lindaner.
4. I vendi cenë mine elen sila.
5. I aran haryanë canta roccor ar tultanë atta.
6. Hendu ortanë ar cennë Anar
7. I antaurë neri mamper atta ciryar
8. I nér hírnë i nís nu i tasar.


----------



## Beorn (Jan 13, 2003)

This thread is now composed of:


Quenya Lesson I:Nouns, Plural, Article 
Quenya Lesson 2: Dual Plural & Stem Variation 
Quenya lesson three: Adjective and copula 
Quenya Lesson 4: Verbs (Present Tense) - Superlative, and

I have put notes in the beginning of each new lesson...


----------



## Elennainie (Jan 13, 2003)

Thanks, Beorn, for consolidating for us, and especially for adding the lesson titles


----------



## Elennainie (Jan 15, 2003)

Your sentences are really fun, gate7ole! 

3. Fill the gaps with appropriate verbs:

1. I nér ortanë i analta sar ar hirnë I harma.
2. (Once) i saila Elda tencë parma. (Now), i nís cendanë i parma.
3. I úmië neri cenner minë nís, mapaner i rancu ar lalaner (at her).


----------



## gate7ole (Jan 15, 2003)

I have one question. I don’t know if you’re supposed to know this. Maybe it is told later in another chapter. Anyway: 
What is the past tense of the copula *ná*?
My best guess would be nanë (or even në). Does anybody know?


----------



## Elennainie (Jan 15, 2003)

For anyone who would like a little more practice:

5. Form the past tense, both singular & plural, of the following verbs _according to the general rules set forth in this chapter_.

a. calya- 
b. harna-
c. cúna-
d. can- (to order)
e. car- (to make, do)
f. fir- (to die, fade)
g. hlar- (to hear)
h. lav- (to lick)
i. maquet- (to ask)
j. mat-
k. *tap- (not a real verb, just made up for practice)
l. *hirip- (" " " " )
m. *uroc- (" " " " )
n. *tarac- (" " " " )



> What is the past tense of the copula ná?


 According to the Nole Parma Lambeo Areldava list at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/2196/index.html , a list I am told is reliable by a couple people on the forum:



> "For 'was' some writers have used né, pl. ('were') ner. Cf. also uin and umin 'I do not, am not' (1. pers. aorist), pa.t. úmé. -Mam/RGEO:67, An Introduction to Elvish:5, Silm:21/391, FS, UGU/UMU"


 I don't know what Fauskanger has to say about yet, though.


----------



## Calimehtar (Jan 15, 2003)

Question: When I am going to make a Plural Past Tense Verb and I am looking at the last letter to see what suffix or infix to add to make it Past Tense, do I look at the last letter of the root-word or do I look at the word after I have made it Plural so then there would be a suffix on it. Like CALYA becomes CALYAR for plural (right?) so, then to make it Past-tense, do I look at the A or the R?

*sigh* and to make matters worse, I can't find my notes...


----------



## Elennainie (Jan 16, 2003)

You look at the verb's root stem/root-word. Like for mat- (to eat) you look at the "t". For "calya-" you look at the "a". You won't have an ending on it yet.


----------



## gate7ole (Jan 16, 2003)

a. calyanë calyaner
b. harnanë harnaner
c. cúnanë cúnaner
d. cannë canner
e. carnë carner
f. firnë firner
g. hlarnë hlarner

They all seem very regular. Did I understand wrong?


And in one of you answers Elennainie:
2. (Once) i saila Elda tencë parma. (Now), i nís *cendanë* i parma.
Since there is the word (now), the verb must be in present tense, that is *cendëa*.


----------



## Húrin Thalion (Jan 19, 2003)

h. lav- (to lick)
i. maquet- (to ask)
j. mat-
k. *tap- (not a real verb, just made up for practice)
l. *hirip- (" " " " )
m. *uroc- (" " " " )
n. *tarac- (" " " " )

H=lanvë

I=maquentë

J=mantë

K=tampë

L=hirimpë

M=uroncë

N=tarancë

And oh, I am pretty tired right now so forgive me if I did siomething wrong, it became later than intended last night. (Or I am just lazy and wake up at 10 30, you choose)

Húrin Thalion


----------



## Elennainie (Jan 20, 2003)

> They all seem very regular. Did I understand wrong?


 You understood correctly, G7o, and yours are correct.

Hurin, you only missed the first one.

h. lav- (to lick) ...........lavnë lavner
i. maquet- (to ask).........maquentë, maquenter
j. mat-................mantë, manter
k. *tap- (not a real verb, just made up for practice).tampë, tamper
l. *hirip- (" " " " )...........hirimpë, hirimper
m. *uroc- (" " " " )..........uroncë, uroncer
n. *tarac- (" " " " ).........tarancë, tarancer

More answers:
4. Isil sillë nu i calimë eleni.
5. I roccor camper alta sar.
6. Aiwë lindanë (when) i Nauco tultanë ar mapanë (it).
7. I tári tultanë lempë vendi ar i aran quentë (to them).
8. (Yesterday), i neri lindaner ar lalaner nu i tasar. (Today they) nar firini.


----------



## Finduilas (Jan 23, 2003)

Excuse me, but I'd like to ask you for something.
Would you please give me the translation of this : My Fair Queen


----------



## gate7ole (Jan 23, 2003)

My Fair Queen:

Vanya tárinya


----------



## Elennainie (Jan 23, 2003)

*Quenya Lesson 6b - Future & Aorist*

This is the start of the real lesson 6 (lesson 7 on ardalambion).

Future Tense:
The future tense is formed by adding the ending *-uva* to the verb stem. 

For a-stem verbs, the final "a"drops off, e.g. mapa- (to seize)becomes mapuva (will seize). 

For primary verbs, just add -uva, e.g. tir- (to watch) becomes tiruva (will watch).

As usual, just add "-r" to the end of the verb after the ending is attached, to make the verb plural. E.g. Eldar *mapuvar*. = The elves will seize. Naucor *tiruvar*. = The dwarves will watch. **Note: we voted to use the same nasal infixions for future tense as past tense uses, before adding the endings to the verbs. Thus, tap- becomes tampe in the past tense and tampuva in the future tense. It does not become tapuva. Mat- becomes mante in the past tense and mantuva in the future tense. Nasal infixion only occurs in the future tense for the verbs that have 
-nte
-nce
-mpe
-lle
in the past tense, thus we stay consistent with the past tense and the words sound better.

Aorist Tense: 
The aorist tense is discussed at length in this lesson, and Fauskanger's instruction should be read carefully. It is easy to confuse the aorist tense with the present tense, and there is no definitive answer as to which tense should be used in which instance. Even Tolkien uses them somewhat interchangebly. However, Aorist seems to be used for timeless truths and actions, habitual & characteristic actions, and actions that do not have a duration. The present tense is reserved for an ongoing action that is still happening as we speak.

The easiest way, imo, to state the difference, and the rule that all the exercises below follow, is:
Now Correct!:
aorist tense = verb + "-s" = eats
present tense = "is" + verb + "-ing" = is eating

**Caveat! This is an oversimplification  and Fauskanger's complete discussion should be read carefully!

Aorist tense is easy to form:

For a-stem verbs, there is nothing to add!  "The aorist is identical to the verbal stem itself (irrespective of any secondary endings the aorist verb may receive)." E.g., linda- (to sing) stays linda (sings). As usual, the secondary ending "-r" is added to make the verb plural, e.g. lindar (sing).

For primary verbs, add *"-ë"* in the singular (if there is no secondary ending added - I guess we'll learn about more of those later), and *"-ir"* in the plural (or "-i" plus a different secondary ending). "Hence the aorist of mat- (to eat) is matë (eats) if there is no further ending added to the word, but otherwise we see mati- + ending (e.g. matir "eat" in the case of a plural subject).
Aorist tense does not have nasal infixion.

So, Future:
-uva (with nasal infixion and dropping final a's in a-stems)

And Aorist:
-ë (if no secondary ending added)
-ir (if secondary ending is added; right now the only secondary ending we know is "-r" for the plural)


----------



## Elennainie (Jan 23, 2003)

As stated above, for purposes of these exercises, present tense should be translated: "is" + verb + "-ing", e.g. "is eating". Aorist tense should be translated: verb + "-s", e.g. "eats".

A. Translate, paying special attention to the tense of the verb. *State which tense you use and why.*

1. The horses are jumping over the gate.
2. Horses jump over gates.
3. The horses will jump over the gate.
4. The horses jumped over the gate.
5. The warrior is writing a book.
6. A warrior writes books.
7. The warrior will write a book.
8. The warrior wrote a book.

B. Translate:

1. The moon shines above the brightest stars and the maiden loves (them) all.
2. A mighty lion will seize every bird and will eat (them).
3. Six warriors are lying dead under one evil black sword.
4. One red eye will see all and will laugh (at) the World.
5. A wise dwarf wrote, "One bird will speak above the (hidden) gate."
6. Yavanna sings and two trees spring forth (spring forth = tuia-)
7. Many wise elves will govern (their) peoples.
8. Gandalf reads the book (that) the dead kings wrote.
9. Three white birds are singing (in) the tree and the queen is watching (them).
10. All Dwarves love stones.


C. Fill in the blanks so the story makes sense (if you use a verb, make it aorist):

Beren ar Luthien _______ silmaril. Elu Thingol ________ i silmaril. Melian na assaila. Thingol _______ Eldar nu Doriath, but he does not _______ Naucor. I Nauglamir ná anvanya harma ar i Naucor nar _______ (adjective), so Thingol _________.

Now do the same, putting all verbs in future tense.

More exercises (6 Quenya to English sentences) will follow.


----------



## Finduilas (Jan 24, 2003)

Thank you !!! 
Oh, one last thing:

My wise Lady


----------



## Elennainie (Jan 24, 2003)

My Wise Lady = Saila Herinya


----------



## Elennainie (Jan 24, 2003)

Here are the last of the exercises:

D. Translate:

1. I nér quentë (to) i vendë ar i vendë lalanë.
2. Elda linduva (to) ilyë rávi nu i tasari.
3. I calima macil silë (when) Atani turir (it).
4. I úmëa aran cenë i ninquë hrávë (of) i vendë('s) anvanyë rancu.
5. I saila ohtar haryuva i analta harma.
6. Lempë mori roccor ortar i andor or i sardi.


----------



## gate7ole (Jan 25, 2003)

A.
1. I roccor cápar or i ando
2. Roccor capir or andor	(Aorist, it seems to describe a general truth)
3. I roccor campuva or i ando
4. I roccor camper or i ando

B.
1. Isil síla or i ancalima eleni ar i vendë méla (them) ilyë.
2. Taura rá mampuva ilya aiwë ar mantuva (them).
3. Enquë ohtari caitëar firini nu minë umëa morë macil.

C.
Beren ar Luthien mapar silmaril. Elu Thingol harya i silmaril. Melian na assaila…


----------



## gate7ole (Jan 25, 2003)

Keys to Exercises:
1. Fill the gaps with appropriate verbs:
(possible answers)
1. I nér ortanë i analta sar ar hirnë I harma.
2. (Once) i saila Elda tencë parma. (Now), i nís cendëa i parma.
3. I úmië neri cenner minë nís, ortaner i rancu ar camper (at her).
4. Isil sillë/ortanë nu i calimë eleni.
5. I roccor camper alta sar.
6. Aiwë lindanë (when) i Nauco campë ar  mapanë  (it).
7. I tári  tultanë  lembë vendi ar i aran  quentë  (to them).
8. (Yesterday), i neri  manter  ar  lindaner  nu i tasar. (Today they) caitëar firini.

2. Find the errors:
1. i saila Elda quetë alta parma quetë->quentë
2. neldë vanyar roccor camper i ando vanyar->vanyë
3. I neri mataner ar I nissi lindaner mataner->manter
4. I vendi cenë minë elen sila. cenë->cenner, sila->síla
5. I aran haryanë canta roccor ar tultanë atta.
6. Hendu ortanë ar cennë Anar. ortanë->ortaner cennë->cenner
7. I antaurë neri mamper atta ciryar maper->mapaner
8. I nér hírnë i nís nu i tasar. hírnë->hirnë


----------



## Elennainie (Jan 25, 2003)

> As stated above, for purposes of these exercises, aorist should be translated: "is" + verb + "-ing", e.g. "is eating". Present tense should be translated: verb + "-s", e.g. "eats".


 Oh my gosh, I am SO SORRY! This is completely wrong!!! I got these switched, and have edited my post to reflect the correct info. I meant, aorist is verb + "-s", and present is "is" + verb + "-ing". Please accept my apology. I do hope I didn't mess you guys up!    

G7o, Congratulations! Since you were the first to get 10 answers posted, you get the "top student in Quenya" award for this week!!  

B. 1. "ancalima" should be "amcalimë" plural to agree with "eleni".
Should actually be the aorist tense "silë" and "melë", but what you did is correct according to my incorrect instruction (sorry again).

B 2. What's your opinion on this: I think "mampuva" should be "mapuva", without nasal infixion b/c it is an a-stem verb. In past tense it is mapanë, mapaner (like in your lesson 6a exercise 4.7.). If the verb were just "map-", then the nasal infixion would take place so that the forbidden cluster "ma*pn*e" would not occur. But since there is an "-a" at the end of "mapa", the "-a" just drops off and is replaced by the "u" in "-uva".

B.3. "umëa" should have an accent on the "u"


----------



## Elennainie (Jan 25, 2003)

> 4. I vendi cenë mine elen sila. cenë->cennë, sila->síla


gate7ole, wouldn't "cenë" be "cenner" because "vendi" is plural?


----------



## gate7ole (Jan 26, 2003)

Sorry for the mistakes, I was a bit tired when I posted yesterday.
About the future of *mapa-*, this is a very good observation Elennainie. I hadn’t thought of it. I agree that the correct future tense is *mapuva*, since there is no nasal-infixion to A-stems.


----------



## gate7ole (Jan 27, 2003)

D. Translate
1. The man spoke to the maiden and the maiden laughed
2. An Elf will sing to all the lions under the willows
3. The bright sword shines when Men wield it.

Some phrases that I made:
1. Ilya Atan Ambaron firë minë aurë.
2. Saila aran turë rimba lië.
3. I aran tultuva (his) neri ar ilya ohtar turuva alta macil.
4. Rimbë roccor camper or i ando ar hirner (their freedom)
5. Isil ortanë or i eleni, (while) i taurë macili sillë carni.
6. Ilya aurë, Anar orta ar hirë Isil (who) nurta nu Ambar. 
[nurta- ~ to hide].
[aurë ~ day].


----------



## Elennainie (Jan 29, 2003)

1. Ilya Atan Ambaron firë minë aurë.
2. Saila aran turë rimba lië.
3. I aran tultuva (his) neri ar ilya ohtar turuva alta macil.
4. Rimbë roccor camper or i ando ar hirner (their freedom)
5. Isil ortanë or i eleni, (while) i taurë macili sillë carni.
6. Ilya aurë, Anar orta ar hirë Isil (who) nurta nu Ambar. 

1. Every Man of Earth dies one day.
2. A wise king governs many people.
3. The king will summon his men and every warrior shall wield a great sword.
4. Many horses jumped over the gate and found their freedom.
5. The Moon rose over the stars, while the mighty swords shone red.
6. Every day, the Sun rises and finds the Moon who hides under the World.  (What a cute sentence!)


----------



## gate7ole (Jan 30, 2003)

B.
4. Minë carnë hen cennuva ilyë ar laluva (at) Ambar
5. Saila Nauco tencë, “Minë aiwë quentuva or i (hidden) ando.”
6. Yavanna linda at aldat tuiar
7. Rimbë sailë Eldar turuva (their) lier.

C.
(using future)
Beren ar Luthien mapuva silmaril. Elu Thingol haryuva i silmaril. Melian na assaila. Thingol turuva Eldar nu Doriath, but he meluva (not) Naucor. I Nauglamir ná anvanya harma ar i Naucor nar úmië (adjective), so Thingol firuva.


----------



## Elennainie (Jan 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by gate7ole _
> *B.
> 4. Minë carnë hen cennuva ilyë ar laluva (at) Ambar  cennuva should be cenuva; note on ilyë - if used as an adjective for an understood "things", then the plural is correct, if used as a noun, it can stay ilya.
> 5. Saila Nauco tencë, “Minë aiwë quentuva or i (hidden) ando.”
> ...



gate7ole, if you have time, would you make some more sentences so I have some more to solve? Quenya is getting harder and I could use the practice. Thanks.


----------



## gate7ole (Jan 30, 2003)

Maquentelyet, acárienyet.


1. The Kings will govern the World and the peoples will see the (truth).
2. A wise man reads many books but the wisest man writes the thickest book[I know, it’s not poetic, but with our limited knowledge that was the best I could do].
3. Every king possesses a great treasure and the warriors guard (it).
4. Six Dwarves jumped the gate and grasped the treasure. (They) are lying above the floor dead.
5. A sword governs many peoples, (but) a book governs all the peoples.
6. The Elf saw the white mountain and the Sun rose above (it).
7. The wise Queen spoke: “The mightiest treasure of the world is the bright stars”

1. Rimbë úmië rávi firner nu i macili.
2. Minë nér ortuva ar turuva ilyë lier or Ambar.
3. Túrin Turambar cennë i úmëa morë macil ar quentë…

I wrote more English to Quenya sentences, since I believe they are better exercises that vice versa.


----------



## Elennainie (Jan 31, 2003)

> Maquentelyet, acárienyet.


 Does that say "You have asked, I have done it" ? Please tell me how you made those words: "maquente" (what tense?) + "lye" (you), but what does the "t" mean at the end?
"car-" (to make, or do) + "nye" (you)?  

In confusion and awaiting your illumination ,
Elen.


----------



## Elennainie (Jan 31, 2003)

1. I arani turuvar Ambar ar i lier cenuvar i (truth).
2. Saila nér tecë rimbë parmar (but) i assaila nér tecë i antiuca parma.
3. Ilya aran harya alta harma ar i ohtari tirir (it).
4. Enquë naucor camper i ando ar mapaner i harma. (They) caitëar or i talan firini.
5. Macil turë rimbë lier, (but) parma turë ilyë lier.
6. I Elda cennë i ninquë oron ar Anar ortanë or (it).
7. I saila tári quentë: "I antaura harma Ambaron? ná i calimë eleni.

1. Many evil lions died beneath the swords.
2. One man will rise and will govern all peoples over the World.
3. Turin Turambar saw the evil black sword and said, "will you slay me?" Turin firnë (by) i úmëa morë macil.


----------



## gate7ole (Jan 31, 2003)

> Does that say "You have asked, I have done it" ? Please tell me how you made those words: "maquente" (what tense?) + "lye" (you), but what does the "t" mean at the end?
> "car-" (to make, or do) + "nye" (you)?


“maquentë”: the root verb is “maquet-“~to ask, so you can now figure out the tense, by yourself. It’s of course simple past. The “-t” at the end means “them”.
“acárië”: this is past perfect of the verb “car-”~to do.
So, the correct translation would be 
“You asked them, I’ve done them.”
I have read a couple of chapters ahead, but didn’t actually “delve” into the new rules. Just grasped the general idea.

As for your answers, as always perfect, except a tiny slip (not even mistake).

2. Saila nér *tecë* rimbë parmar (but) i assaila nér tecë i antiuca parma.

”tecë” should be “cenda” since the original sentence says “reads” and not “writes”.


----------



## Elennainie (Feb 3, 2003)

> ”tecë” should be “cenda” since the original sentence says “reads” and not “writes”.


 Oh, yeah, sorry, I'm always confusing those two verbs. I just read lesson 8 (as promised  ) and I am pleased to say that the Perfect Tense is my new favorite tense!  I love that utu and ece double vowel stuff. Yay for Tolkien making cool sounding verbs!  He is the master of language!


----------



## gate7ole (Feb 4, 2003)

*LESSON 8: Prefect Tense, Pronominal Endings –nyë, -lyë, -s.*

Summary

 Perfect Tense. 

This tense is formed by following these three general rules:
1. Add/Replace the ending –ië to the verb
2. Lengthen the stem vowel.
3. Augment the verb by duplicating the stem vowel.

Applying the rules the categories of the verbs we have:
-Primary Verbs:
cen -> ecénië.
-A-Stems:
mapa -> amápië


*Special cases:*

-Verbs ending in *-ya*:
hanya -> ahánië [the whole –ya cluster is replaced by the ending –ië]

-Verbs with diphthong for stem vowel:
roita -> oroitië	[the *first* vowel is only duplicated and we have
no lengthening of the stem vowel.]

-Verbs beginning in vowels:
ora -> orórië [the whole first syllable is duplicated]
There is a possibility though that the perfect tense of such verbs stays unaugmented, e.g for the verb ora -> órië. We can’t be sure what is the correct, but we will be using the normal perfect for these verbs.

-Unaugmented perfect:
e.g. fir -> firië
This is a case when the stem vowel is not augmented. It has been attested in a few writings by Tolkien, suggesting that it _may_ be used in spoken or informal language, or even in poems if ir serves the rhyme.



Pronouns.

The pronouns are an obscure part of Quenya since Tolkien changed his mind about them many times. Here we will deal with three of them: *I, you, it*.
The distinct difference from the English pronouns is that the Quenya pronouns are added as endings to the verb, rather than separate words.
Thus we have:
-n(yë) for “I”
-l(yë) for “you” (both singular and plural)
-s for “it”
Examples:
mátanye ~I am eating
firuvalye ~You will die

The full form –nyë and –lyë is not necessary (expect another ending is added after this). So, it is correct to just write:
mátan, firuval

Also, two pronominal endings can be added to the same vern the first of them denoting the _subject_ of the verb and the second the_object_:
E.g.
melinyel ~I love you (aorist)
Here the object “I” is the first ending, *nye*, which _must_ be in full form (and not just *n*), since there is another ending *l* meaning “you”.
hirnelyes ~You found it

About the *-lyë* ending there are some obscurities. It seems that Tolkien had some ideas about using different words for the singular and plural meaning of “You”. But from his writings it is not clear what he intended to do. It may be that he intended to use the *-lyë* for plural and polite singular. But lacking further examples, we will leave the problem and use *-lyë* for both singular and plural.


----------



## gate7ole (Feb 4, 2003)

Exercises
1.Translate to English and find mistakes: 
A. I seldo amapië minë tiuca parma ar ecéndies.
B. Ihiriens firin nu i sar
C. I ohtar roitëa rávi, an i rávi amátier rimba móli.
D. I úmëa nér lalanë, an ilyë Eldar acaitaner firini or i talan.
E. Firuvan, an ahárien i harma Naucoron.
F. Ailaitiel Ilúvatar, ar nálye imbë antaura aran ar assaila tári.
G. Tulkas utúlië, ar Melkor nurtanë nu Utumno.
H. Utúliel ar ecéniel, (now) leruval i móli.
I. Elen alantië, ar seldo meruva.	[mer- ~ to wish].


2. Translate to Quenya:
A. Seven Men pursued the lion and killed it
B. Men will govern the World and the Elves will leave [auta- ~ to leave]
C. The (War) ended and many men have died.
D. The Dwarves have hided under the mountain.
E. I will summon you and you will speak to me.
F. The King has hided between the warriors and the slaves.
G. I came and pursued the evil warriors because I am the King.
H. Between the Sun and the Moon, many stars shine.
I. Many Kings have risen and fallen above the World.

3. Fill the gaps with verbs and pronominal endings. Use your imagination!
A. Aragorn _______ i macil, ______ ar ______: “Nyë, Elessar, ar limbë antaurë ohtari _______(perfect) ar _______ i firini néri. (None) _______ (future).” 
B. I (prophecy) ______: “(As) aran _______ (future) ar ______ i lië. Neri _______, an ________ ar _______ (them).”


4. Exercise the pronominal endings by translating the following short story.
Using future:
I am a King. I will come. I will release you. You will praise me and you will love me. I will rise. I will have many treasures. I will fall and will hide. You will pursue me and will find me. I will die.
Using Perfect:
I have been a King. I have come. I have released you. You have praised me and you have loved me. I have arisen. I have had many treasures. I have fallen and have hidden. You have pursued me and have found me. I have died.


----------



## gate7ole (Feb 4, 2003)

Here is a list of all the tenses I prepared, so that everyone interested will have a quick guide to use when s/he is writing Quenya sentences.

*Present*
*Primary:*
sil- >> síla
*A-Stems:*
lala- >> lálëa
linda- >> lindëa (no accent before cluster)


*Past*
*Primary:*
-r	
-m } hir- >> hirnë
-n

-p
-t } tec- >> tencë (nasal infixion)
-c

-l sil- >> sillë

*A-Stems:*
lala- >> lalanë


*Future*
*Primary:*
-r	
-m } hir- >> hiruva
-n

-p
-t } tec- >> tencuva (nasal infixion)
-c

-l sil- >> silluva

*A-Stems:*
lala- >> laluva


*Aorist*
*Primary:*
sil- >> silë >> silir (plural)
*A-Stems:*
lala- >> lala


*Perfect*
*Primary:*
sil- >> isílië
onot- >> ononótië (augment all syllable)

*A-Stems:*
lala- >> alálië
harya- >> ahárië (drop all the -ya ending)
linda- >> ilindië (no accent before cluster)


----------



## Elennainie (Feb 5, 2003)

1.Translate to English and find mistakes: 
A. I seldo amapië minë tiuca parma ar ecéndies.
amápië ecendies The boy has seized one thick book and has read it. 
B. Ihiriens firin nu i sar
Ihírienyes I have found it dead under the stone.
C. I ohtar roitëa rávi, an i rávi amátier rimba móli.
 rimbë The warrior is pursuing lions, for the lions have eaten many slaves.
D. I úmëa nér lalanë, an ilyë Eldar acaitaner firini or i talan.
 caitaner The evil man laughed, because all Elves lay dead on the floor.
E. Firuvan, an ahárien i harma Naucoron.
I shall die, for I have possessed the treasure of the Dwaves. (guessing on Naucoron - haven't learned that yet)
F. Ailaitiel Ilúvatar, ar nálye imbë antaura aran ar assaila tári. Alaitiel, nályë (can you do this to ná? might it be irregular or something?) You have praised Iluvatar and you are between a king most mighty and queen most wise.
G. Tulkas utúlië, ar Melkor nurtanë nu Utumno. 
I don't know if this one has an error. Perhaps you'd change nurtane to perfect, to keep the tense consistent? If so, "unurtië". Tulkas has come, and Melkor hid under Utumno.
H. Utúliel ar ecéniel, (now) leruval i móli. 
leryuval You have come and you have read, now you shall free the slaves.
I. Elen alantië, ar seldo meruva. [mer- ~ to wish].
A star has fallen, and a boy shall wish.


----------



## Elennainie (Feb 5, 2003)

I was wondering about "2.E. I will summon you and you will speak to me." I think we need a dative case for the pronoun "me", rather than putting a pronomial ending on the verb and getting "quentuvalyen", since "to me" is an indirect, not direct object here. A person does not speak another person; he speaks _to_ another person. What do you think? I have also asked the question in the Languages section. No one has answered yet, though.
http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=240964#post240964

Also, Sam,  would you like me to make some sentences for you to translate also?


----------



## gate7ole (Feb 6, 2003)

Elennainie, 
This is one of the questions that we cannot answer with the current knowledge we have. My guess would be that we would use a preposition and the pronoun attached to it. But we can only guess.
So, I have this proposition: Let’s keep a list of all the questions that are left unanswered and see if at the following chapters they are answered. So, we will keep track of the questions we may have.
This is one question that belongs to such a list. The other is the tenses of “ná” and its union with the pronominal endings (if it is acceptable or not). If at the end of the course there are still unanswered questions, we can e-mail the professor. He already answered me in an e-mail I sent him and he seems willing to help if we have some problems.

And one question we discussed before and I may have found the solution: What happens when we want to write: “The lions eat it”
Our first assumption was that this is wrong: “I Rávi matars” 
We were correct. The ending “-r” is probably substituted by the ending “-s”, so the sentence is: “I Rávi matas”
I’m not totally sure, though, so let’s keep this on our list too.

List so far:
1. Verbs with an indirect object (e.g. speak). How is the object translated? As a pronominal ending?
2. Tenses of the copula (ná) and its union with the pronominal endings.
3. What happens to the ending “-s” when it is put to a verb in plural? Does it replace the ending “-r”?


----------



## Elennainie (Feb 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by gate7ole _
> So, I have this proposition: Let’s keep a list of all the questions that are left unanswered and see if at the following chapters they are answered. So, we will keep track of the questions we may have.


Sounds good. Additionally, in our exercises, then, let's stick to just the stuff we know is correct.



> If at the end of the course there are still unanswered questions, we can e-mail the professor. He already answered me in an e-mail I sent him and he seems willing to help if we have some problems.


 Wow! You emailed Fauskanger? That's great that he is willing to help us. What exactly was your question and what was his reply? I'd love to see the email, that is, only if it's o.k. with you. He's like a celebrity for us Quenya students! 



> And one question we discussed before and I may have found the solution: What happens when we want to write: “The lions eat it”
> Our first assumption was that this is wrong: “I Rávi matars”
> We were correct. The ending “-r” is probably substituted by the ending “-s”, so the sentence is: “I Rávi matas”
> I’m not totally sure, though, so let’s keep this on our list too.


 Where did you find the answer to this question? I did find the following in lesson one, "Consonant _clusters_ or _double_ consonants are not normally found at the end of words, though they may occur if a final vowel drop sout (is ellided) because the next word begins in the same or a similar vowel....The only genuine consonant cluster occurring at the end of a word seems to be *nt* used a specific grammatical ending (dual dative)..."
"-rs", it seems to me, is a consonantal cluster, so perhaps the -r does drop out. Let's keep it on the unanswered question list, though, as you suggested.



> 3. What happens to the ending “-s” when it is put to a verb in plural? Does it replace the ending “-r”?


 I would also add, "What happens to the "-r" at the end of a plural verb, when *any* ending is added?" E.g. they will die - is it firuvantë or firuvarntë?


Would you like those sentences I made?


----------



## gate7ole (Feb 6, 2003)

About the answer to question 3 (like the example you gave with the phrase: they will die, it says in the chapter 10 (which I haven't read, just searched for what you're looking here), that the "r" is replaced.
So, the correct is: firuvantë.
I guess we could apply this to the ending "-s". BUT this ending is normally used as an object:
the men are eating it
i neri matar (it)
Applying it would become:
i neri matas
But in this way, the plural of the verb is lost and one must look the subject to understand if it is plural or singular. while at the previous example "firuvantë", we understand by the ending that it is plural. So my point is that it _may_ not be correct to substitute the "r". I hope it is cleared sometime later in the course.

About the e-mail to Fauskanger, I just asked him some time ago to prepare a test for us. He kindly refused, but just the fact that he answered us means that he cares about questions etc.
(And I didn't keep it unfortunately)

PS. I forgot to say that you don't need to write any questions for me, I had my practice by preparing the exercices. Thanks anymway. We will practice more on IM.


----------



## Elennainie (Feb 7, 2003)

Thanks for finding that in chapter 10. The other Quenya student I told you about said the same thing about firuvante, i.e. that the plural ending -r should be replaced by the ending -ntë. But, as you said, we still don't know about the -s ending. Oh well.

About IM practice, would a little earlier, at 22:00 GMT Sunday be good for you? You can PM me if you want. Cenuvanyel on i aure of i Anar, hina of Ulmo!


----------



## gate7ole (Feb 11, 2003)

Keys to some of the exercises


1. Correct sentences:
A. I seldo amápië minë tiuca parma ar ecendies.
B. Ihírienyes firin nu i sar
C. I ohtar roitëa rávi, an i rávi amátier rimbë móli.
D. I úmëa nér lalanë, an ilyë Eldar caitaner firini or i talan.
E. Firuvan, an ahárien i harma Naucoron.
F. Alaitiel Ilúvatar, ar nályë imbë antaura aran ar assaila tári.
G. Tulkas utúlië, ar Melkor nurtanë nu Utumno.
H. Utúliel ar ecéniel, (now) leryuval i móli.
I. Elen alantië, ar seldo meruva.

3.
-Aragorn mápanë i macil, ortanes ar quentë: “Nyë, Elessar, ar limbë antaurë ohtari utúlier ar elérier i firini néri. (None) roituvan.” 
-I (prophecy) quentë: “(As) aran tuluval ar turuval i lië. Neri laituval, an metyuvalyes ar leryuval (them).”


4.
Nan Aran. Tuluvan. Leryuvanyel. Laituvalyen ar meluvalyen. Ortuvan. Haryuvan rimbë harmar. Lantuvan ar nurtuva. Roituvalyen ar hiruvan. Firuvan.
Anien Aran. Utúlien. Elérienyel. Alaitielyen ar emélielyen. Orortien. Ahárien rimbë harmar. Alantien ar unurtie. Oroitielyen ar ihírien. Ifírien.


----------



## Elennainie (Feb 12, 2003)

Woops, sorry, I had these exercises done on paper, but forgot to post my answers :

2. 
A. Otso néri roitaner i rá ar mances. (mac- = to slay; I think we only know "to die" so far)
B. Atani turuvar Ambar ar Eldar autuvar.
C. I War metyanë ar rimbë Atani ifírier.
D. Naucor unurtier nu i oron.
E. Tultavanyel ar quentuvalyë (to me). 
F. I Aran unurtië imbëi ohtari ar i móli.
G. Tullë ar roitanë i úmië ohtari an nan i Aran.
H. Imbë Anar ar Isil, rimbë eleni silir.
I. Rimbë arani orortier ar alantier or Ambar.


> Nal Aran. Tuluvan. Leryuvanyel. Laituvalyen ar meluvalyen. Ortuvan. Haryuvan rimbë harmar. Lantuvan ar nurtuva. Roituvalyen ar hiruvan. Firuvan.


About #4 using future: Wouldn't "I am a King" be "Nan aran"? "Nal aran" means "You are a king." Also, wouldn't "You will pursue me and will find me" be "hiruvalyen" for "will find me", because "you" is the understood subject of the verb?

About #4 using perfect: Shouldn't it be "Anien" for "I have been a king"? Also, there should not be an accent over the "o" in "orortien" because of the consonantal cluster "rt". And I think it would be "unurtien" for "I have hidden."

Gate7ole, could you please check my remaining answers, so we can finish discussion of 8 before we get too far into 9? It'll be less confusing for anyone else who uses our exercises. Thanks, tol dweller!  (tol = island)


----------



## Elennainie (Feb 12, 2003)

*Lesson 9: The infinitive, negative verb & active participle*

Infinitive
The infinitive is translated in English as the verb, preceded by the word "to", e.g. "to laugh", "to sing". By itself, the infinitive cannot function as the predicate of a sentence. It is used to combine several verbs in one sentence.

Examples:
Polin quetë..............."I can speak", or, literally, "I am able to speak."
Merin cenda..........I want to read

To form the infinitive:
primary stem verbs: stem + -ë (no -r in plural)
a-stem verbs: identical to verb stem (no -r in plural)

Note that the infinitive will look like an ending-less aorist tense verb.

Negative verb:
-um = "not to be" and "not to do"

The negative verb "-um" can be used as a negative copula (the opposite of ná).

Examples:
I mÓl umë saila.............The slave is not wise.
Umin Nauco...................I am not a dwarf.

-um is somewhat irregular in its conjugation:
present = úma (singular), úmar (plural)
past = úmë (singular), úmir (plural)
future = úva (singular), úvar (plural)
aorist = umë (singular with no endings), umin (singular with 1st person ending), umir (plural)

The negative verb "-um" can also probably ve combined with infinitives, to mean "do not", "does not", although we lack attested examples.

Examples:
Aiwa umë cenda parmar............A bird does not read books.
Sardi umir linda..........................Stones do not sing.

Participles 
Active participles are verb-derived words used as adjectives, and are able to take an object. In English, they have the ending 
“-ing”, for example “the gleaming sword”. The active participle “gleaming” is an adjective describing the noun “sword”. However, not every English word ending in “-ing” is an active participle; only those that are verbal adjectives, not those that are verbal nouns.

Examples:
Ilcala Isil ná vanya......................The gleaming Moon is beautiful.
lálala Nauco.................................laughing Dwarf
túrala aran...................................governing king

but NOT: Laughing is fun. (here “laughing” is used as a verbal noun)

To form:
primary stem verbs: stem + -ala, and lengthen stem vowel
a-stem verbs: stem + -la, and lengthen stem vowel

If the stem vowel occurs twice in the stem, lengthen the second occurence of the vowel. As always, do not lengthen the stem vowel if it is followed by a consonantal cluster.


----------



## gate7ole (Feb 14, 2003)

A. Translate
1. All Men are not evil. (But) many Men have praised Morgoth
2. Two boys couldn’t raise the biggest sword.
3. A daring man will be able to pursue the dying lion
4. I did not dare to stop, for I heard the warriors pursuing me.
5. The maiden reading a book, saw a shining star fall into the Sea.
6. You won’t want to travel through the World and not find one treasure.
7. I will not free you, because you will scare the singing birds.

8. Naucor umir linda ar Eldar umir fire.
9. Atani alantier an Atani merner turë Ambar.
10. Úval quetë, an umil verya pusta i úmëa aran.



B. Translate this short story (finally we can write a decent story)
You will go into the house and will wield the greatest sword. You will hear the birds singing and the maidens laughing. You do not want to die. (But) you will dare to pursue the terrifying lion. You will find it and it will die. (Then) the people will praise you and you will be a king.


----------



## Elennainie (Feb 15, 2003)

Did you have a chance to look over the rest of my lesson 8 answers? And what did you think about this from lesson 8:


> About #4 using future: Wouldn't "I am a King" be "Nan aran"? "Nal aran" means "You are a king." Also, wouldn't "You will pursue me and will find me" be "hiruvalyen" for "will find me", because "you" is the understood subject of the verb?



A. (Sorry, my computer won’t do capital U’s with an accent for some weird reason.)
1. Ilyë Atani umir úmië. (But) rimbë Atani alaitier Morgoth.
2. Atta seldor úmer polë orta i analta macil. I’m nor sure about this one – do we know how to do “could not” yet? Is it literally “were not (úmer) able to (polë)”, like I have it?
3. Veryala nér polluva roita i fírala rá.
4. úmen verya pusta, an hlarnen i ohtari roitalan.
5. I vendë cendala parma, cennë sílala elen lanta? (would “falling”, “lantala” be o.k. here?) mir i ëar.
6. úval merë lelya ter i Ambar ar ? hirë minë harma.
7. úvan leryal, an ruhtuval i lindala aiwi.
8. Dwarves donot sing, and Elves do not die.
9. Men have fallen because Men wished to rule the World.
10. You will not speak, for you do not dare to stop the evil king.


----------



## Elennainie (Feb 15, 2003)

B.
Lelyuval mir i coa ar turuval i analta macil. Hlaruval i aiwi lindala ar i vendë lálala. Umil firë. (But) veryuval roita i ruhtala rá. Hiruvalyes ar firuvas. (Then) i lië laituval ar nauval aran.


C. Translate:
1. Singing birds can fall between trees, for (they) are not wise.
2. A laughing warrior will not guard the terrifying lions.
3. Because the gate is great, the black horse did not wish to jump it. The gate frightened (him). (not sure if an infinitive can take a pronomial ending, what do you think?)
4. A king can govern a people (but he) will not control the Sea.
4b. The boy hears the sea and sees the Sun shining and he loves (them).

5. Anar ruhta umië (orcs) ar (they) umir verya lelya nu Anar.
6. Isil sillë ter i aldar ar mernen cene i aran, an mellen (him).
7. Merin hlarë (you) quetala Quenya. (so borrow a microphone, please!) 
8. Tolto Naucor mapaner Elda tecala parma, an (they) úmer merë cendë i parma.

D. Answer:
1. In which verb tenses do you lengthen the stem vowel?
2. Which verb tenses have nasal infixion?
3. Does a participle agree in number with the noun it describes?


----------



## gate7ole (Feb 15, 2003)

About my mistakes you mentioned at the previous chapter, there are two that I doubt whether they are really errors.
It is the general example:
I write and read.
How is it translated?
*Tecan ar cendean*
Or
*Tecan ar cendeä*

In other words, can the subject be omitted when the verbs are joined with a conjunction (ar~and)?
My opinion is that the subject can be omitted (like most actual languages). Of course, there is the problem of understanding if at the phrase:
* Roituvalyen ar hiruvan*
the verb _hiruva_ have the ending _-n_ for object or subject. Anyway, I think the omission is acceptable. What do you think?

For your answers of chapter 8:
Just two minor errors, probably caused only by carelessness:
E. Tultavanyel -> Tultuvanyel
G. You forgot the pronoun.


About the answer of chapter 9:
A.
2. We can never be sure, but I think that couldn’t is translated as *úme polë*. We must assume some things. I don’t think the course will answer all our questions.
5. _fall_ here is considered –I think- infinitive, so *lanta* is correct. But I guess that a participle is grammatically correct too.
6. This was tough. My interpretation is that the negative verb of the phrase _and not find_ is translated as *ar umil hirë*, that means that the negative copula is again written (or else, someone might translate the verb as a positive one). And you can omit the article for *Ambar*
B.
*Umil fire* should be * Umil merë firë*

Generally though well done! Excellent work, considering also that the grammar rules are now too many to memorize.


----------



## gate7ole (Feb 15, 2003)

C.
1. Lindala aiwi polir lanta imbë aldar, an (they) umir sailë.
2. Lálala ohtar úva tirë i ruhtala rávi.
3. An i ando ná alta, i morë rocco úmë merë capes. I ando ruhtanë (him).
4. Aran polë turë lië (but he) umë turë Ëar.
4b. I seldo hlarë i ëar ar cenë Anar sílala ar meles (them)
[I think that –s is also used for “he”, but we’ll see in future]

5. The Sun scares evil orcs and they do not dare to travel under the Sun.
6. The Moon shone through the trees and I wanted to see the king, for I loved him.
7. I wish to hear you speaking Quenya. 
8. Eight Dwarves seized an Elf writing a book, for they did not want to read the book.

Notes:
3. As I said previously, we must assume some things. And an infinitive taking a pronominal ending is something very natural and accepted. So, I think that we can use it.
7. OK, two more wishes left.



D.
Answer:
1. In which verb tenses do you lengthen the stem vowel?
-> present, perfect, participles
2. Which verb tenses have nasal infixion?
-> past, future(possibly)
3. Does a participle agree in number with the noun it describes?
-> no


----------



## Elennainie (Feb 17, 2003)

> 7. OK, two more wishes left.


 Haryanen eressë neldë? Mapuvan rimbë, an nán taura tári!  

Merin nályë envinyanta, meldonya! 



Excellent on the exercises.  Only 2 minor points:

4. Although "umë" in aorist would make sense, technically "will not" is future and should be "úva".
5. No "i" needed before "Éar", which is how you did #4.


If you have time to make more exercises, please consider it. If not, I'll make some for myself. I could use a little more practice before we proceed.


----------



## gate7ole (Feb 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Elennainie _
> Merin nályë envinyanta, meldonya!
> [/B]


 


More practice for you:


Translate

1. I’m reading a book and I can’t stop laughing.
2. You heard the singing birds, saw the beautiful maiden (or man  ) and wished to possess all the Word
3. I dare not release the women, for the warriors scare me. (remember what we said happens when “-n” is added to a plural ending)
4. I went into the house and hided, for the great warrior pursued me
5. The people did not want to praise the king, because the king didn’t release the slaves.
6. Between the king and the queen lied great love.
7. Laughing and laying under willows is not a way to govern the World. [way~men]
8. I fell into the sea, because I didn’t see it.
9. The boy loved the bird and wanted to hear it singing. (tricky, I’m curious about your opinion on this).


----------



## Elennainie (Feb 19, 2003)

Thanks for the extra practice! 

1. Cendëan parma ar úman pusta lala.

2. Hlarnel i lindala aiwi, cennel i vanya nér, ar mellel harya.

3. Umin verya lerya i nís, an i ohtari ruhtan.

4. Lelyanen mir i coa ar nurtanen, an i alta ohtar roitanen.

5. I lië úmë merë laita i aran, an i aran úmë lerya i móli.

6. Imbë i aran ar i tári caitanë alta melmë. melmë = love, as a noun

7. Lálala ar caitala nu tasari umë men turë Ambar.

8. Lantanen mir Ëar, an úmin cenes.

9. I seldo mellë i aiwë ar mernes lindala. (or might be “mernes linda”, I’m not sure which is more correct. What is your opinion?)


----------



## Elennainie (Feb 19, 2003)

Uvan pustalye lelya (with the next lesson)! 

Also, I wrote you a little story:

I otso Naucor cenner Snow Ninque lelya mir i coa. Na vanya. Ar na lindala. Her hrave na ninque, loxe more, ar hendu miste. Ilye i Naucor mere mele (her) ar mere nurta (her from) i umea tari. I carne yave na umea. Beware!


----------



## gate7ole (Feb 19, 2003)

1. *... ar úman pusta lala.*
The correct is:
1. ... ar umin polë pusta lala.


3. *... ar mellel harya*
The correct is:
3. *... ar mernë harya* (obviously you just confused the two words - always having the word mel- in your mind )


9.* I seldo mellë i aiwë ar mernë hlares lindala. *
(I just added the verb "hlare" that you forgot)

The other version should be :
*I seldo mellë i aiwë ar mernë hlarë lindas*
here, IMO the ending "-s" goes to the verb "linda", since it is its subject.

Now, which one is correct of the two, I guess both are acceptable.


----------



## gate7ole (Feb 21, 2003)

*LESSON 10: Adverbs, Pronouns They/Them, Passive participles, etc*


This lesson is bigger than the previous with many irregularities and uncertainties which were not included in the above summary.

SUMMARY



Adverbs
Adverbs are constructed by adding the ending *-vë* to an adjective:

Examples:
1. Adjectives ending in *-a*
*saila -> sailavë * (wise->wisely)
*alta -> altavë* (great->greatly)
2. Adjectives ending in *-ë*
*mussë -> mussivë * (soft->softly) [Here the _ë_ is substituted by _i_]
3. Adjectives ending in *-n*
*melin -> melimbë/melinavë * [it is not clear which of the two is correct]

Agreement in number:
It is not clear if the adverbs agree in number with the verb, but the author suggests that it shouldn’t agree, e.g:
* I nér lendë andavë* (~the man travelled long)

Irregular adverbs:
*aqua* (~completely)
*sí* (~now)
*amba* (~upwards)
*háya* (~far off)
*oi* (~ever)



Pronoun: They/them

The pronominal ending for *they* is *-ntë* (used as a subject) 
The ending *-ntë* replaces the ending “-r” of the plural verb it inflects.
Examples:
*Tiruvantë* (~They will guard)
*Matintë* (~they eat)
There is also an other _possible_ ending, *-lto*, which some have explained that is used for a pronoun “they” referred back to some group (mentioned in a previous sentence), while the ending *-ntë* is used to point forwards to a group to be identifie later. But we will not use this form here.

The pronominal ending for *them* is *-t* (used as an object).
Examples:
*I nér tirnet* (~The man watched them)
*Melilyet* (~You love them)
Also, there is an independent pronoun meaning “them”, the word *te*
e.g. *merin mapa te* (~I want to seize them)



Object Pronouns for infinitives
The pronominal endings for an infinitive is not added in the same way as in finite verbs. The infinitive of a verb is added the ending *-ta* and then gets the pronominal ending.
Examples:
1. Primary verbs:
*cenë- -> cenita-* [the *ë* is replaced by *i* as usual]
*Polin cenitas* (~I can see it)
2. A-stems:
*metya- ->metyata-*
*Merin metyatas* (~I want to end it)



Past tense of intransitive verbs in -ya
Intransitive is a verb that can have no object (I fall).
The intransitive verbs that end in *-ya* have an irregular past tense.
It is formed by dropping the ending *-ya* and form the past tense directly from the stem, as being a primary verb.
Examples:
*farya -> farnë* (and not *faryanë*)



Passive Participles
The passive participles are adjectival derivatives that describe the state inflicted on someone by the corresponding verbal action. 

1. A-Stems:
They are generally formed by adding the ending *-ina*:
*orta -> ortaina* (~raised/risen)
*yerya -> yeryaina* (~worn out)

2. Primary Verbs:
In *-t, -c, -p, -v*
Same as before, by adding the ending *-ina*, and also lengthening the stem vowel:
*rac -> rácina* (~broken)
In *-r, -m, -n*
Here we add the simpler ending *-na*:
*car -> carna* (~made)
In *-l*
Here we add the simpler ending *-da* (for phonological reasons):
*mel -> melda* (~loved)

Agreement in number:
The passive participles probably agree in number in the same way as the adjectives:
*i rácinë macili* (~the broken swords)
*i meldë vendi* (~the loved maidens)


----------



## gate7ole (Feb 21, 2003)

Exercise:
A. Translate:
1. They swiftly travelled through the scaring trees and found the hidden thrall
2. The blessed king couldn’t gather them for they were set free. [use whatever past for “ná” you think is correct]
3. The pursued men finally found a house and hidden into, the warriors didn’t seize them
4. The people didn’t want the fallen warriors, for they were not enough.
5. The beautiful maiden sung like a bird and all men secretly loved (her).
6. Actually, I don’t want them to go (with) the daring warrior.
7. They wisely guarded the nine gates, for they didn’t want Morgoth to control them.
8. Ohostientë nuldavë nu i oron ar Sauron umë polë hiritat.
9. Ortala Isil tullë, i aurë mentë ar ilyë neri ar nissi lender mir i coar.
10. Cennen i ruhtaina nér nurta ve rá mir (cage).


----------



## Elennainie (Feb 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by gate7ole _
> *1. ... ar úman pusta lala.
> The correct is:
> 1. ... ar umin polë pusta lala.*


*
1. I’m reading a book and I can’t stop laughing.
I disagree on this one. "umin" is aorist. If "cendean" is present tense (which it is, because it has the "-ing" ending), "úman", present tense, should be used to keep the tense consistent within the sentence. 

I will not be able to read the next chapter until next week. I'm going out of town. So if I don't post for a while here, that's why.*


----------



## Elennainie (Feb 25, 2003)

Cendëan the next chapter - more -ë endings...I know you are happy about that!


----------



## Elennainie (Feb 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by gate7ole _
> *9. I seldo mellë i aiwë ar mernë hlares lindala.
> (I just added the verb "hlare" that you forgot)
> 
> ...



And now, after reading this chapter, we know that if we went with the first version, it would be:
9. I seldo mellë i aiwë ar mernë *hlaritas* lindala. 

I finished the chapter and will work on your exercises. Here are some for you:

11. "I truly, deeply love you," said Amidala to Annakin.

12. Darkly the evil swords shone beneath the Moon and three warriors wielded them.

13. Because Idril did not love Maeglin, Idril made a secret path and did not speak (of) it to him. (Use the pronomial ending for "it", despite the "of" I used for a correct English sentence)

14. They shall sing long and beautifully, for they wish to praise Iluvatar through all the world.

15. The queen wisely freed the frightened white bird. The freed bird went into the trees and is singing swiftly.


----------



## Elennainie (Mar 3, 2003)

Aiya saila meldonya! Nanye tecë i answers....?  Would you be interested in either judging or submitting an entry to a Quenya poetry contest? I am thinking about running one. See ya.


----------



## gate7ole (Mar 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Elennainie _
> *Aiya saila meldonya! Nanye tecë i answers....?  Would you be interested in either judging or submitting an entry to a Quenya poetry contest? I am thinking about running one. See ya. *


Where is this contest? I don't have time (or skill) to participate. And I don't think I'm capable of judging yet.


----------



## Elennainie (Mar 4, 2003)

My (corrected) answers to your lesson 10 exercises:

A. 1. Lintavë lendentë ter i ruhtala aldar ar hirnentë i nurtaina mól.

2. I laitaina aran úmë polë hosta te, an náner leryainë.

3. I roitainë neri teldavë hirner coa ar nurtanentë, i ohtari úmer mapa te. (“hidden into” is replaced by “they hid”.)

4. Lië úmë merë i lantainë ohtari, an úmentë farya.

5. I vanya vendë lindanë ve aiwë ar ilyë néri nuldavé meller (her).

6. Anwavë, umin merë te lelya (with) i veryala ohtar.

7. Sailavë tirnentë i nertë andor, an úmentë merë Morgoth turë te.

8. They have gathered secretly under the mountain because Sauron cannot find them.

9. The rising Moon came, the day ended and all men and women went into the houses. (Ar quententë “καληνύχτα”) 

10. I saw the frightened man hide like a lion into a cage.


----------



## gate7ole (Mar 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Elennainie _
> 9. The rising Moon came, the day ended and all men and women went into the houses. (Ar quententë “καληνύχτα”)


you're full of surprises!

My answers:
11. “Anwavë, núravë melinyel”, Amidala quentë (to) Annakin
12. Morevë I úmië macili siller nu Isil ar neldë ohtari turnet.
13. An Idril úmë melë Maeglin, Idril carnë nulda tië ar úmë quetitas (to him).
14. Linduvantë andavë ar vanyavë, an merintë laita Iluvatar ter ilya Ambar.
15. I tári sailavë leryanë i ruhtaina ninquë aiwë. I leryaina aiwë lendë mir i aldar ar lindëa lintavë.


----------



## gate7ole (Mar 5, 2003)

Five more for your practice:

1. The Elves wanted to come to Valinor (but) many didn’t do it and assembled and praised Thingol.

2. Finally, Turgon found a secret and hidden land and assembled many Elves.

3. Ulmo had a house into the deepest sea and (from there) governed all the seas of the World.

4. Like a mighty eagle, Eärendil flew swiftly above the Sea and slayed Ancalagon the Black.
Hlapu- (to fly) Sorn ~eagle)

5. The boy was finally found hiding between the two trees, but the king let it go.


----------



## Elennainie (Mar 9, 2003)

Regarding your answers to lesson 10's exercises numbers 11-15:


> 12. Morevë I úmië macili siller nu Isil ar neldë ohtari turnet.


Morevë should be Morivë. Adjectives ending -ë take -ivë. Except for this one error, the rest of your answers were perfect!


My answers to your five extra exercises:
1. I Eldar merner tulë (to) Valinor (but) rimbë úmer caritas ar hostaner ar laitaner Thingol.

2. Teldavë, Turgon hirnë nulda ar nurtaina nórë ar hostanë rimbë Eldar.

3. Ulmo haryanë coa (in) i annúra ëar ar (from there) turnë ilyë ëari (of) Ambar. (Again, "into" is only used in English to indicate movement. The word "in" would be better here.)

4. Ve taura soron, Eärendil hlapunë lintavë or Ëar ar mancë Ancalagon Morë.
(You might want to change "flied" to "flew", which would be correct past tense in English.) 

5. I seldo nanë teldavë hirna nurta imbë i atta aldar, (but) i aran leryanet. (I think this is what you were looking for here, but actually, I think passive tense should be used for "was found", and we haven't learned that yet. Hopefully we will though!)[


----------



## gate7ole (Mar 9, 2003)

About #5, I had the idea of using nurtala for "hiding". But then, is it a present participle? What do you think?

IM tonight?


----------



## Elennainie (Mar 9, 2003)

I like your idea. Yes, I think it would be better to use nurtala, a present participle, instead of the infinitive that I used, for #5.

Catch ya on IM at 1:30 pm your time, if that's good for you.


----------



## Elennainie (Mar 9, 2003)

Lesson 11: Genitive Case 

As in Latin, Quenya nouns take different _cases_ depending on how they function in a sentence. Quenya has 8 different cases for nouns. We have already learned the Nominative Case, used when a noun functions as the subject of the verb. The Nominative Case takes no special endings, except for –r and –i, which we have already learned are the endings for Nominative Plural. The dual endings –t and –u are also Nominative Plural endings.

Examples: 
Aran cendëa. = The king (noun in nominative singular) is reading. 
Arani cendear. = The kings (noun in nominative plural) are reading.

In this lesson, we are introduced to a new case: the Genitive Case. In Quenya, the Genitive Case is NOT used to indicate possession or ownership. Rather, it is used to show source or origin (including former ownership), relationships between people (family and ruler), something being part of another thing (i.e. partitive), and relationship between a place and a thing located in that place. It is also used to mean “concerning”, or “about”, and it is used with the preposition “ú”, meaning “without”. Usually, the genitive case may be translated by “of” or “ ‘s “, in English.

Examples: 
Vardo tellumar = Varda's domes (domes made by Varda, originating with her)
parma arano = book of the king, the king’s book (not the book currently possesed by the king, but the book originating with/written by him or formerly owned by the king)
aran Eldaron = king of the Elves, The Elves’ king (relationship between ruler and his people)
Eärendil Elenion Ancalima = Eärendil brightest of stars, Eärendil stars’ brightest (partitive)
Calaciryo míri = the jewels of Calacirya (relationship between a place and an object located in that place)
Quenta Silmarillion = the History of the Silmarils (genitive used to mean “concerning” or “about”)
ú calo = without light (this preposition happens to take the genitive)

Genitive Case endings are:
*-o* (singular; displaces final –a in nouns ending in –a) ex. arano (of the king), tário (of the queen)

*-on* (plural) ex. aldaron (of the trees), elenion (of the stars)

-to & -uo (dual plural) ex. ciryato (of the pair of ships), henduo (of the pair of eyes) The --uo ending is not certain, however.
****************************************************

And MOST IMPORTANTLY! now we can count ALL THE WAY to TEN!!!


----------



## gate7ole (Mar 13, 2003)

I know you’re on vacation, but I prepared a few phrases for you to practice when you’re back. I will prepare the summary for following lesson and post it next week.

For each one of the sentences, translate and also give the reason for using genitive here.

1. Anduin was the deepest of the rivers.

2. Rúmil spoke (to) Eriol the tale of the Making of the Moon and the Rising of the Sun.
[maybe we don’t use genitive here. We’ll see at the next chapter]

3. I pour wine in the cups and hear you the fairest of singing women. (use the object for “you” we have learned and “mi” for in)

4. They found the dead warrior’s sword and didn’t dare to grasp it.

5. The brothers of the kings do not possess many lands.
I torni atanion úmin harya rimbë nóri.

6. Eärendil, the king of Skies, raised and all the scared evil animals hided.

7. The horns of Caradhras are white like the light of Nenya. (light ~ cala)

8. You will release the lands of the mighty king.

9. I can’t go without you. (But do) you want to come? (we don’t know questions yet, translate it as usual)


----------



## Elennainie (Mar 14, 2003)

Yes, i'm on vacation, but at a place with INTERNET ACCESS! yay!I think I'm officially addicted to Quenya. I can't stop myself from doing just one....just one....  

1. Anduin nanë i annúra sírion.


----------



## Elennainie (Mar 17, 2003)

And here are some exercises (lots!), for you: 

1. Will you drink the cup I pour? (sucin = 1st person aorist, drink)

2. Of all the dead men, the king was the wisest.

3. Three maidens pouring wine into three cups, possessed deep, beautiful eyes.

4. The nine lions without mouths will not be able to eat it.

5. The Moon is the brother of the Sun.

6. Truly, all rivers pour into the Sea.

7. They bravely sang of beloved brothers (in) the tongue of Men, for it was enough.

8. The mighty warrior is raising the horn of (his) dead brother into (his) mouth.

9. Moonlight poured over the fair queen and she wished to dance alone.

10. The maiden pured wine into the king's mouth, for the king was beloved of the maiden.

11. Umilyë melë ilyë neri ar nissi, an rimbë teon(?) merir harya ilya. (what do you think about putting a genitive ending on a pronoun?)

12. Melin quetala (in) lambë Eldaron.

13. I assaila tárir ulyuvar nén or i seldor, laitala te nu silála Isil.

******************
And three questions:

1. Why doesn't the adjective modifying the genitive noun decline also, i.e. take a genitive ending? Is it correct that in Quenya, adjectives agree in number but not in case?

2. Just to double check: the genitive plural of "brother" would be tornion, right?

3. In the answers to lesson 20, Fauskanger writes that the past tense of "ná" may be "né". We've been using "nánë". Do you think we should switch, or since it's not certain anyway, still use "nánë"? My concern is for others who use these exercises after us.


----------



## gate7ole (Mar 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Elennainie _
> *
> And three questions:
> 
> ...


1. For the same reason that you say: 
_the beautiful woman's charisma D )_
and not
_the beautiful's woman's charisma_
in english.
The adjective has nothing to do with the case of the noun it describes. It doesn't in any way describe the corresponding word of the case. At least that's how I understand it.

2. Yep

3. Oh, we have already some mistakes from previous exercices (remember the subject of an infinite, or our use of genitive in all cases?). We can use either. I would prefer nane , though.


----------



## gate7ole (Mar 18, 2003)

More Practice!

1. Sucuval yulma ulyan?
[ok, we know not how to form questions, as well as the “that” clause of English – so this sentence may be totally wrong.]
2. Ilyë i firini nerion, i aran nánë i assaila.
3. Neldë vendi ulyala limpë mir neldë yulmar, haryaner núrë, vanyë hendu.
4. I nertë rávi nú antoron úvar polë matitas.
5. Isil ná toron Anaro. [which is _wrong_ within Tolkien’s mythos  ]
6. Anwavë, ilyë síri ulyar mir Ëar.
7. Tauravë, lintanentë meldë tornion (in) lambë Ataniva, an farnes.
[I used the possessive case (CH 12) for the “language of Men”, since this is the correct case to be used here]
8. I taura ohtar ortëa rassë (his) firin torono mir (his) anto.
9. Isilmë ulnë or i vanya tári ar (she) mernë (dance alone).
10. I vendë ulnë limpë mir anto i arano, ar i aran nánë meldë i vendëo.
11. You do not love all men and women, because some of them want to have everything.
[my guess is as good as yours, I think we can use this form]
12. I want to speak in the tongue of Eldar.
[two notes here. *quetë* (infinitive) should be used instead of participle, and the case used should be the possessive, thus, *Eldaiva*]
13. The wisest queens will pour water over the boys, blessing them under the shining Moon.

(You liked the verb “pour” a lot, didn’t you?)


----------



## Elennainie (Mar 18, 2003)

> (You liked the verb “pour” a lot, didn’t you?)


  What can I say? It's a beautiful word, a sensual image.


----------



## Elennainie (Mar 19, 2003)

My answers to your Lesson 11 exercises:

1. Anduin nanë i annúra sírion.	y=part of x

2. Rúmil quentë (to) Eriol i nyárë (Making) Isilo ar (Rising) Anaro. for “tale of”, genitive used here means “concerning, about” 

(This sentence is problematic, though. “Making” and “Rising” are gerundives, which we don’t know how to do yet. They aren’t active participles, b/c they aren’t describing a noun. If you said “the tale of so-and-so making the moon and raising the sun,”, then “making” and “raising” are participles (functioning as adjectives) describing so-and-so. Another question I have is whether you can make an active participle genitive? I don’t think participles take endings, do you?

3. Ulyan limpë mir i yulmar ar hlarinyel i anvanya nission lindala. y=part of x

4. Hirnentë i firin ohtaro macil ar úmentë verya mapitas.	former ownership

5. I torni aranion umir harya rimbë nóri.	family relationship (was that wrong answer a trick?  )

6. Eärendil, i aran Menelion, ortanë ar ilyë i ruhtainë úmië lamni nurtaner.	relationship of ruler to ruled or location?

7. I rassi Caradhraso nar ninqui ve i cala Nenyo.  pretty sentence! location

8. Leryuval i nóri taura arano.	location or relationship of ruler to ruled?

9. Umin lerya ú elyëo. (But do) meril tulë? "ú" always takes genitive


----------



## gate7ole (Mar 19, 2003)

Excellent!!
You are the best Quenya student I have ever seen! 
Only one wrong at #9 (probably deliberate so that you aren't perfect  )
The correct is:
*9. Umin polë lelya ú lyëo*

About #2:
The questions you have, will be answered at the next chapter (12). The "making and hiding" are verbal nouns.


----------



## Elennainie (Mar 24, 2003)

My corrections are in yellow. Please note, I was extremely picky, more for my own learning than any need for correction on your part. Of course it goes without saying that your answers were wonderful, as usual, especially on figuring out when to use “i” in the genitive.

1. Sucuval i yulma ulyan? (picky, I know, but I want to make sure, due to our issue of when to use “i” in the genitive)
[ok, we know not how to form questions, as well as the “that” clause of English – so this sentence may be totally wrong.] Yes, we’ll have to wait and see about how to form questions.

2. Ilyë i firini nerion, i aran nánë i assaila. I know we agreed to use “nánë”, but I’ve read twice now in Fauskanger that the past tense of ná may be *né.* So, I think we should switch to that. I incorrectly told you in our IM last night that it was në. The –e has an accent, not a diaresis. Sorry.

3. Neldë vendi ulyala limpë mir neldë yulmar, haryaner núrë, vanyë hendu.

4. I nertë rávi ú antoron úvar polë matitas. typo; you had “nú”

5. Isil ná toron Anaro. [which is wrong within Tolkien’s mythos ]

6. Anwavë, ilyë síri ulyar mir Ëar.

7.Veryavë, lindanentë meldë tornion (in) lambë Ataniva, an farnes.
[I used the possessive case (CH 12) for the “language of Men”, since this is the correct case to be used here] Cool – thanks for showing me the correct case. I was thinking the language of Men is genitive of source or origin, but now I know that is wrong. You had “Tauravë” and “lintanentë”

8. I taura ohtar ortëa rassë (his) firin torono mir (his) anto.

9. Isilmë ullë or i vanya tári ar (she) mernë lilta eressë. You had “ulnë”. It is one of those weird –ya verbs that have an irregular past tense when used intransitively (which is how it used here, but not in the next sentence). Sorry I forgot to give the vocab for dance alone.

10. I vendë ulyanë limpë mir anto i arano, ar i aran nánë melda i vendëo. You had “ulnë” and “meldë”

11. You do not love all men and women, because many of them want to have everything.
[my guess is as good as yours, I think we can use this form] You had “some” instead of “many”.

12. I love to speak in the tongue of Eldar.
[two notes here. quetë (infinitive) should be used instead of participle, and the case used should be the possessive, thus, Eldaiva] Excellent points, thank you. Should be “love”, instead of “want”.

13. The wisest queens will pour water over the boys, blessing them under the shining Moon.


A few other matters:

A. Regarding “ilyeon” from our IM’ing last night:

In the letter “D” exercise made by Fauskanger for Lesson 11:
“D. Cenuvantë Aran Atanion ar ilyë nórion.” Note that ilyë does not take the genitive in this sentence, because adjectives don’t decline, while “ilyeon” in your exercises during our last IM was, imo, used as a noun “fairest of all”. In lesson 7, Fauskanger says “ilya” is a “noun/adjective”. I’m sure you already knew this, but I wanted to clarify it for us. Also, since it is used as a noun, “ilyeon” would be incorrect. It should be “ilyon” from “ilya” and the final –a drops off. We are just used to seeing ilya in the form ilyë because you and I tend to use it as an adjective modifying plural nouns, like “ilyë Atani”.

B. Regarding “né”:

Not to beat a dead horse, but here’s the quote from Fauskanger:
“The verb ‘to be’: The only attested forms of this verb are ná ‘is’, nar ‘are’ and nauva ‘will be’. The past tense ‘was’ may be né. The infinitive and perfect forms are unattested and uncertain.”

C. Regarding the article “i” and its use with genitive:

You have it exactly right, and I had it wrong. For me, the sentence that finally broke through my haze, was: “...a Quenya noun connecting with a following genitive is always determined, whether or not the article i is used.” I’m glad I have you to keep me straight!


----------



## gate7ole (Mar 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Elennainie _
> A. Regarding “ilyeon” from our IM’ing last night:
> 
> In the letter “D” exercise made by Fauskanger for Lesson 11:
> “D. Cenuvantë Aran Atanion ar ilyë nórion.” Note that ilyë does not take the genitive in this sentence, because adjectives don’t decline, while “ilyeon” in your exercises during our last IM was, imo, used as a noun “fairest of all”. In lesson 7, Fauskanger says “ilya” is a “noun/adjective”. I’m sure you already knew this, but I wanted to clarify it for us. Also, since it is used as a noun, “ilyeon” would be incorrect. It should be “ilyon” from “ilya” and the final –a drops off. We are just used to seeing ilya in the form ilyë because you and I tend to use it as an adjective modifying plural nouns, like “ilyë Atani”.


Do you think that it must be formed as ilyon?
I'll be the devil's advocate here: "Ilya" is used also as a noun (for the meaning of "all"), but in what form? in singular or in plural? If it is in singular then we must have *ilyo* ~of all. If it is in plural we must have *ilye+on = ?ilyeon*, because I think the final *e* is _not_ substituted by *on*. Either case, I don't think how *ilyon* can be formatted.
What's your opinion on this? *Ilyeon* (as we used from the beginning) seems correct to me.


> B. Regarding “né”:
> 
> Not to beat a dead horse, but here’s the quote from Fauskanger:
> “The verb ‘to be’: The only attested forms of this verb are ná ‘is’, nar ‘are’ and nauva ‘will be’. The past tense ‘was’ may be né. The infinitive and perfect forms are unattested and uncertain.”


OK! You persuaded me! No more nánë! Only né!



> I’m glad I have you to keep me straight!


I don't think that you need me to keep straight more than I need you. Anyway, I'm glad that we both need each other in this quest! It's always fun to have company on the Road. 
Sam

EDIT
You can check this: 
http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~michalak/Rules.doc
I can upload there whatever you want me, no matter how big it is.


----------



## Elennainie (Mar 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by gate7ole _
> *Do you think that it must be formed as ilyon?
> I'll be the devil's advocate here: "Ilya" is used also as a noun (for the meaning of "all"), but in what form? in singular or in plural? If it is in singular then we must have ilyo ~of all. If it is in plural we must have ilye+on = ?ilyeon, because I think the final e is not substituted by on. Either case, I don't think how ilyon can be formatted.
> What's your opinion on this? Ilyeon (as we used from the beginning) seems correct to me.*


*

You are right again!  "ilyon" would never be correct, b/c it'd be a singular noun with a plural genitive ending. Fausk. says at lesson 7:
"ilya, noun/adjective 'all, every' ('every' before a singular noun, e.g. ilya Elda 'every Elf', but ilya occurring by itself would rather mean 'all'). Note that before a plural noun, this word also signifies 'all' and is inflected for plural as a common adjective, hence becoming ilyë..."

So, "ilya" used as a noun (i.e. by itself) would be in the singular, and I think "X is the fairest of all" would be "X ná anvanya ilyo," while "X is the fairest of all women" would be "X ná anvanya ilyë nission." Does that seem correct to you? 

Also, I love the rules chart. I'm printing it out for myself. Thanks!!! *


----------



## gate7ole (Mar 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Elennainie _
> *So, "ilya" used as a noun (i.e. by itself) would be in the singular, and I think "X is the fairest of all" would be "X ná anvanya ilyo," while "X is the fairest of all women" would be "X ná anvanya ilyë nission." Does that seem correct to you?
> *


Sounds great to me.


----------



## gate7ole (Mar 27, 2003)

Summary

Possesive Case

Formation:

The possessive case is formed by adding the ending *-va* (*-wa* if the last letter is a consonant).
Examples:
Eldava (~ of an Elf)
aranwa (~ of a King)

In plural, the ending is *–iva* which _replaces the “r” of the plural_
Example:
Eldaiva (~ of the Elves)
If the word already ends in *–i*, a possible formation of the possessive case is to lengthen the letter *i* of the stem
Example:
táríva (~ of queens)

Dual form. It is not stated anywhere, but possibly, the endings –va and –wa are using for the –u and –t dual forms respectively
Examples:
alduva (~ of two trees)
ciryatwa (~ of two ships)

Word Order:
Usually the noun that governs comes before the noun that receives the possessive ending. But there are a few examples that contradict this rule.

Special Rules:
1. Words with more than three syllables and the last two of them being short, have the last vowel lengthened before the addition of *-va*
Examples: Oroméva (not Oromeva)
2. The addition of *-va* and *-wa* to words with a special stem-form, may result in non acceptable clusters. To deal with this, some transformation is necessary
Examples:
Talan (talam) >> *talamwa >> talanwa
nís (niss-) >> *nisswa >> nisseva


Function:
The possessive case has the following functions:
a. It simply indicates ownership, at the time that is being considered.
e.g. Mindon Eldaliéva (~ Tower of the Eldalië)
b. It defines a permanent attribute to a noun, or a characteristic of a place.
e.g. alcar Oroméva (the glory of Oromë)
c. It shows that something consists of something else.
e.g. yuldar lisse-miruvóreva (draughts of sweet mead)




Verbal or Abstract Nouns

Formation
Verbal or abstract nouns derived from nouns can be formed in a variety of ways.
By adding:
*-më*: mel (to love) -> melmë (love)
*-lë*: laita (to praise) -> laitalë (praising)
*-ië*: tyal (to play) -> tyalië (play)
*-ë*: sir (to flow) -> sírë (river)

Interaction with the cases

If the verbal noun is the “subject” of the corresponding word, then the genitive case is used.
Example:
Equessi Rúmilo (~saying of Rúmil) [using genitive for Rúmil, since he is the subject of those saying, he “says”]

If the verbal noun is the “object” then the possessive case is used.
Examples:
Nurtalë Valinóreva (the hiding of Valinor) [using possessive because Valinor is the the object, being hid by the Valar]


----------



## gate7ole (Mar 28, 2003)

Translate using the correct case.

1. The swiftest of birds dared to travel through the mountains and into the deepest valley of Gondolin. [valley=nandë]
2. A mighty warrior protects the city of stone and (its) peace of darkness.
3. The evil dwarf has gathered every thing of gold.
4. Actually, the brother of the King governed the world without them. [I’m wondering how you will do this one]
5. The left Noldor went (to) the mouth of Sirion through secrecy. [leave = auta]
6. The deepest Sea was the house of Ossë, God of the water. [water=nén]
7. You are of flesh and you can die, but the Balrog is not. [of course that’s a big mistake, but you may excuse me]
8. A great wall of stones protected the richest lands of the world.
9. The Eldar couldn’t assemble a host like Morgoth’s and protect the World of peace.
10. The terrifying Orcs now control the land of the Elves


----------



## Elennainie (Apr 1, 2003)

You like the superlatives alot this time, didn’t ya? 

1. I allinta aiwion veryanë lelya ter i oronti ar mir i annúra nandë Gondolino.

2. Taura ohtar varya i osto ondova ar (its) sérë morniéva.

3. I úmëa Nauco ohostië ilya engwë maltava.

4. Anwavë, toron i arano turnë Ambar ú teon.

5. I autainë Noldor lender (to) anto Siriono (ter) muilë. (hopefully soon we’ll learn what case and ending to use to indicate “by means of” instead of having to use “ter” like this.)

6. I annúra Eär né  i coa Ossëo, Ainu Nénwa. (is this permanent characteristic?)

7. Nalyë hrávëva ar polil firë, nan i Balrog umë.

8. Alta ramba ondoiva varyanë i analya nóri Ambaro.

9. Eldar úmer polë hosta rimbë ve Morgotho ar varya Ambar séreva.

10. I ruhtala Orcs sí turë nórë Eldaiva.


----------



## gate7ole (Apr 1, 2003)

Excellent job as always.
Remarks:

6. I used *ossëo*, since it shows ownership
and *néno*, since it is a characteristic. But of course you may translate it as a state of ruler/ruled (Ossë/water), so both are correct.

8. probably typo:
Analyë instead of analya

10. 
*turir* instead of *turë*.
Also, I used the genitive *Eldaron*, since it shows _former_ origin.

What do you think about the case I used in those sentences?


----------



## Elennainie (Apr 7, 2003)

*Lesson 13 – Dative, Gerund, Abstract Nouns, Pronouns “we” and “one” (indefinite)* 

*Dative:*

used for indirect object
e.g. Iluvatar gave the gift of death *to Men*. Il. antanë i anna qualmeva *Atanin*.
The dwarf made the cup *for the maiden*. I Nauco carnë i yulma *venden*.

-n	singular	
-in	plural

ex. elda -----> eldan	ex. lassë ----> lassin
ex. laman ---> lamnin (stem variation)
ex. Elda -----> Eldain (–r drops)
ex. tári ------> tárin (uncertain; 
plural form same as singular) 
ex.aran ----> aranen (helping “-e” 
inserted before ending)

-nt dual ex. cirya ----> ciryant (not attested)
-uen? dual ex. Aldu -----> Alduen? (uncertain & 
not attested)

*Gerunds:*

“verbs masquerading as a noun” 
can take an object
in English, gerunds end in “–ing”
“A gerund is a form of the verb which can function as a noun, with much the same meaning as a genuine verbal noun.” 

Compare this to another type of “–ing” word we have already studied, namely active participles. An example may help to clarify when an English “-ing” word is an active participle and when it is a gerund.

e.g. *Wielding* a sword is wise. (“wielding” is functioning as the subject of the sentence, and takes the object “sword.” Thus, it is a gerund.) 

The man *wielding* the sword is wise. (“wielding” is functioning as an adjective, describing the man doing the action. Thus, it is an active participle.)

-ië ex. lala ------> lalië (a-stems drop final –a before adding –ië) 
ex. harya ---> harië (-ya verbs drop final –ya before adding –ië)

*Gerund + Dative*

To indicate purpose, in the English sense of “in order to,” use a gerund (rather than an infinitive) plus the dative ending. Gerunds, since they function as nouns, can take case endings.

ex. Utúlientë *cenien* i aran. They have come *in order to see* the king, or, more literally, They have come *for (the purpose of) seeing* the king.


*Abstract Nouns from Adjectives*

-ië can be used as a general abstract noun ending, meaning the equivalent of English “-ness”, as in “darkness”

ex. morna (dark) ------> mornië (darkness)
ex. verya (bold) -------> verië (boldness)

*Pronouns*

A brief review of the pronomial endings we have learned thus far:
-n, -nyë	I
-l, lyë	you
-s	it
-ntë	they
-t	them

new pronomial endings:
-lmë	we (exclusive – person being spoken to is excluded)
-lvë	we (inclusive – person being spoken to is included)
-mmë	we (dual – thou and I)

quen = indefinite pronoun “one”, in the sense of “someone”. “Quen” stands alone, i.e. is not an ending, and can receive case endings.


********************************
Sigh...the further we go, the more loquacious Fauskanger waxes!


----------



## Elennainie (Apr 7, 2003)

1. We shall give the queen’s slave to the dwarves.

2. Finding the deepest, hidden things of darkness is not wise.

3. In order to free the land, the warrior fought many terrifying animals.

4. The stars of heaven and the Moon give richness to the land of the Elves.

5. Drinking eleven cups of wine is not the true path for finding peace.

6. Singing to the Two Trees was good for the light of the World and gave Yavanna great joy.

7. Someone possessing good ideas gives (greater) joy (than) someone evil possessing a beautiful body.

8. Iluvatar gave them a tree possessing leaves falling in the light of the Sun and they praised it with singing.

9. You speak the fairest things to me and pour light into the darkness.


----------



## gate7ole (Apr 11, 2003)

Phew, that was hard. More rules, more complex structure! It has become a hard job to translate your sentences, Elennainie! I’m sure there will be numerous errors. Don’t be a strict teacher 

1. Antuvalmë i táro mól i Naucoin.
2. Hirië i annúrë, nurtainë engwi morniéva, umë saila.
3. Lerien i nórë, i ohtar mahtanë rimbë ruhtala lamni.
4. I eleni Menelo ar Isil antar alyië (?) i nórin i Eldaiva.
5. Sucië minquë yulmar limbeva umë i anwa mallë hirien sérë
6. Lindië atta Alduen né mára i calan Ambarwa ar ánë Yavannan alta alassë
7. Quen arwa márë noaron anta (alta) alassë (than) quen úmië anwa vanya hroo.
8. Ilúvatar ánë tein (?) alda anwa lassion lantala mi i cala Anarwa ar laitanentes (with) lindië.
9. Quetil i anvanyë engwi nyen (?) ar ulya cala mir i mornië.

The two last question-marks(?) refer to the dative of pronouns. Can we use them like this? I’m not sure at all. But anyway, I’m pretty sure that “nyë” _cannot_ be used as an object. So far there is no reference for the object form of “I”. We will continue “nyë” as well as “lyë” though for both subject or object.


----------



## Elennainie (Apr 12, 2003)

Excellent! Just a few details and minë important engwë:

1. Antuvalmë i táro mól i Naucoin. I used “táriva” for simple possession, but perhaps you were thinking ruler to ruled relationship? I don’t think there is a definitive answer to the possessive vs. genitive questions. 

2. Hirië i annúrë, nurtainë engwi morniéva, umë saila. Great job on the accent on “morniéva”, very precise! I missed this one because I can’t remember that long picky rule...more than x # of syllables, no final consonant, two short final syllables....groan.

3. Lerien i nórë, i ohtar mahtanë rimbë ruhtala lamni.

4. I eleni Menelo ar Isil antar alyië (?) i nórin i Eldaiva. “Alië” because the –ya ending of –ya adjectives drops before adding –ië to make them abstract nouns. From Fausk. lesson 13: “Abstract nouns formed by means of the ending -ië from adjectives in -ya are seen to surrender the latter ending, e.g. verië "boldness" from verya "bold"...”

5. Sucië minquë yulmar limbeva umë i anwa mallë hirien sérë. “limpeva” from “limpë”  ;probably a typo 

6. Lindië atta Alduen né mára i calan Ambarwa ar ánë Yavannan alta alassë

7. Quen arwa márë noaron anta (alta) alassë (than) quen úmië anwa vanya hroo. ”atta” is unnecessary because you used dual plural. “úmëa” singular agrees with “quen” (someone). Can you have a double “oo” in quenya (ex. hroo)? This looks funny to me, but what do you think?

8. Ilúvatar ánë tein (?) alda anwa lassion lantala mi i cala Anarwa ar laitanentes (with) lindië. Mind  the “anwa” (true) versus “arwa” (possessing) in this sentence and in #7. Also, I used “Anaro” for genitive of source, origin – the light has its source in the Sun, but it is really difficult to tell when to use genitive vs. possessive and, frankly, I stink at it.  

9. Quetil i anvanyë engwi nyen (?) ar ulya cala mir i mornië. “Nin” is the dative of the pronoun “I”, meaning “to me” and “for me”. It’s from the lesson 13 examples Fausk. used in the main text of the lesson. So, yes, I do think we can use dative on at least this pronoun. But the others are unattested, I believe. “Tye” is “you” as object (we haven’t learned this yet though), but i don’t know what the indirect object/dative would be. I don’t think Fausk. tells us.



> Fausk: The dative pronoun nin turns up in the last line of Fíriel's Song, as part of a sentence which Tolkien translated "what will the Father...give me...?" (LR:72). Of course, one might also translate "...give to me".



If you are up for making more exercises, feel free, but don't feel obligated.


----------



## gate7ole (Apr 13, 2003)

I prepared only 5 sentences, but I believe they cover all about the cases we have learnt so far.

1. A king in control of a mighty warrior can protect the peace of the city and give to the people joy.
2. We (exclusive) will stop to see the gates of the city. You will stop guarding it.
3. Drinking wine, the man told them: Raising a great wall (around) the city is wise.
4. Dying to protect the joy of home is good.
5. I gave a gift to the fairest of the Queen’s maidens.


----------



## Elennainie (Apr 15, 2003)

Thanks!  I'll get right on them.


----------



## Elennainie (Apr 15, 2003)

1. Aran arwa tauro ohtaro polë varya i sérë ostova ar anta lien alassë.

2. Pustuvalmë cenien i andor osto. Pustuvalyë tires. (“guarding” here is neither a gerund, nor a participle, right? This is from the lesson on infinitives, right?)

3. Sucië limpë, i nér quentë ten: Ortië alta ramba (around) i osto ná mára.

4. Firië varien i alassë coava ná mára.

5. Ánen anna anvanyo? tário vendion. (This one is really hard, g7o!  Enlighten me! I was thinking “fairest” is used as a noun here, so it can take a dative ending, but I’m confused about the other genitives.)

**************************
Do you want to do the summary for the next lesson or would you like me to?


----------



## gate7ole (Apr 15, 2003)

1. *tauro* should be *taura* (just typo I guess)

2. *tires* should be *tiritas* (forgot it?  )
But well done on the "guarding" thing! It is an infinitive and you weren't tricked by the "ing" form. 

3. *Sucie* should be *sucala*, because we don't have a gerund here, but a participle. All those different forms of the verb (infinitive, participle, gerund)! Why can't we just have one?

5. I'm sorry I can't enlighten you! My guess is as good as yours. But I agree that what fits best here is to use the adjective for the case.

************************
Do you have time for the summary? I'm leaving in a few days and things are a bit messy here. I can steal an hour and do it, but if you're so kind to do it for me! I promise to do the two next chapters!


----------



## Elennainie (Apr 15, 2003)

I'd be happy to do the summary. Do you want to pause the lessons for a while, since you are leaving? 

Thanks for all the corrections. Tauro wasn't a typo; it was an error. I keep forgetting the adjectives don't decline.  And I forgot totally about the tiritas. Ick!  Too many mistakes on my part. Sigh.


----------



## Elennainie (Apr 28, 2003)

Lesson 14: Allative, Ablative, Possessive Pronomial Endings, Irregular Verbs *Equë* and *Auta* 

(?Question:


> Cf. also the sentence Sin Quentë Quendingoldo Elendilenna (PM:401) – apparently meaning ‘Thus Spoke Quendingoldo to Elendil’ (or perhaps ‘This Quendingoldo Said to Elendil’ –Fausk. Lesson 13



Wouldn’t dative be used here, instead of allative? speaking to someone? What do you think, gate7ole?

Allative:
to, in the sense of motion, movement towards or into, on, upon
-nna (singular) ex. ciryanna (to a ship)
-nnar (plural) ex. lassennar (to leaves)
-nta (dual plural)	ex. ciryanta

*insert an “e” before adding the ending to a singular word ending in a consonant: ex. Elendilenna
*insert an “i” for plural words ending in consonant: ex. elenillor
*words ending in –ë, with plural in –i, do not change to “i” before the ending, unlike in genitive: ex. lassennar (allative plural), lassellon (ablative plural), while genitive plural is lassion
*if word ends in the same letter as the ending begins in, drop the final consonant instead of adding an “e” or “i”: ex. elen + nna = elenna, Menel + llo = Menello

Ablative:
from, out of
-llo (singular) ex. yulmallo (from a cup)
-llon (plural) ex. elenillon (from stars)
(–llor is also be acceptable for plural ) 
-lto (dual plural)	ex. ciryalto

(same as allative
*insert an “e” before adding the ending to a singular word ending in a consonant: ex. Elendilenna
*insert an “i” for plural words ending in consonant: ex. elenillor
*words ending in –ë, with plural in –i, do not change to “i” before the ending, unlike in genitive: ex. lassennar (allative plural), lassellon (ablative plural), while genitive plural is lassion
*if word ends in the same letter as the ending begins in, drop the final consonant instead of adding an “e” or “i”: ex. elen + nna = elenna, Menel + llo = Menello

Special Note:
Directions (North, South, East, West)
When using allative, ablative, and locative (next lesson) on Formen, Hyarmen, Rómen, Númen, the final –n drops out. ex. Rómello (from the East), Rómenna (Eastwards)

Irregular Verbs:

*equë* – says, say
no tenses and rarely receives endings, not even –r for plural! Yay!!! 
“used mainly where the subject is a full independent pronoun...or a proper name”
verb comes before its subject, and preceeds a quotation: ex. Equë gate7ole, “Melin lairë.” 
if quotation comes before the “so-and-so said”, or if there is no direct quotation, simply use quentë as we have been doing: ex. I nissi quenter. = The women spoke.

*auta* – pass, go away, leave

irregular past & perfect tenses (2 pairs): one physical, one abstract
oantë = went away from one place to another in a physical sense; past tense
oantië = has gone away to another place; perfect tense

vánë = disappeared, passed, in an abstract sense; past tense
avánië = has passed, in an abstract sense; perfect tense


----------



## Elennainie (May 5, 2003)

Lesson 14 summary continued:

Possessive Pronomial Endings

To express “my”, “your”, “our”, etc. in Quenya, use possessive pronomial endings.

*Change the final –ë of the subject endings to a final –a to form the possessive pronomial endings:

-nyë "I" / -nya "my"
-lyë "you" / -lya "your"
-lvë "we" (incl.) / -lva "our" (incl.)
-lmë "we" (excl.) / -lma "our" (excl.)
-ntë “they” / -nta “their” (unattested)

Examples:
coanya = my house
coalya = your house
coalva and coalma = our house (incl. and excl. respectively)
coanta = their house


* As usual, insert an “e” in front of the possessive pronomial ending for words ending in consonants, except in the case of the ending –nya, which takes an “i” instead (e.g. tasar*i*nya = my willow, from tasar).

* As with case endings, a contracted form is used when the noun ends in the same consonant as the pronomial ending begins in, for example: “aranya” rather than “arannya.” 

Nouns with pronomial possessive endings and inflected for case & number:

*When a noun requires both a pronomial possessive ending and a case and/or number ending, the pronomial possessive ending is added first, and then the other ending(s) is/are added.

*Because it is so instructive, Fauskanger’s chart using the example “samabelya” (your room) is reproduced verbatim below:

¤ NOMINATIVE/ACCUSATIVE: singular sambe [color=redlya "your[/color] room", dual sambe lyat "your couple of rooms", plural sambe lyar "your rooms". (In the archaic form of Quenya that had a distinct accusative, we would presumably see the acc. sing. sambelyá and the acc. pl. sambelyai, but in this course, we don't use distinct accusative forms.)
¤ GENITIVE: singular sambe lyo "of your room" (the genitive ending -o regularly displacing the final -a of sambelya even though the -a is here part of another ending), dual sambe lyato "of your couple of rooms", plural sambe lyaron "of your rooms".
¤ POSSESSIVE: singular sambe lyava "of your room", dual ?sambe lyatwa "of your couple of rooms", plural sambe lyaiva "of your rooms". (While we here provide the same translations for the genitive and possessive cases, there are of course certain subtle shades of meaning that distinguish them.)
¤ DATIVE: sambe lyan "for your room", dual sambe lyant "for your couple of rooms", plural sambe lyain "for your rooms".
¤ ALLATIVE: sambe lyanna "to your room", dual sambe lyanta "to your couple of rooms", plural sambe lyannar "to your rooms".
¤ ABLATIVE: sambe lyallo "from your room", dual sambe lyalto "from your couple of rooms", plural sambe lyallon (or, -llor) "from your rooms".



Exercises:

1. You shall depart from your path. (6 words down to 2!)

2. Our son has found a secret room beneath the tower,” said the queen to the king.

3. The first horse summoned by my king was mighty and fair and did not fear evil things.

4. The dwarf came upon our (inclusive) treasure and sent it to your queen of the white tower.


----------



## gate7ole (May 5, 2003)

> Question:
> 
> 
> > Cf. also the sentence Sin Quentë Quendingoldo Elendilenna (PM:401) – apparently meaning ‘Thus Spoke Quendingoldo to Elendil’ (or perhaps ‘This Quendingoldo Said to Elendil’ –Fausk. Lesson 13
> ...


I think that the “key” is the word *Sin ~thus*. The exact translation is “Thus spoke X to Y”. In this case we don’t have an indirect object (Y), but a target, where the “speaker expressed himself in this way (thus)”. The second translation “this spoke X to Y”, seems improper for allative, because we clearly have two objects. I guess that’s why the word “Sin” confuses Fausk, as he admits.
Of course that’s how I try to “explain” the allative. I would definitely use dative here too if I had to choose.

Your Exercises:

1. Autuval tielyallo
2. “Yondolva ihírië nulda sambë nu i mindon”, quentë i tári aranenna.
3. I minya rocco tultaiva (by) aranya né taura ar vanya ar úmë rucë úmië engwi.
4. I Nauco tulle harmammanna ar (sent it) tárilyallo i ninquë mindono.


Five more exercises for you. More will follow:

1. They came from the mountains without treasures and passed the city of stone
2. We (You and I) have gone into deep water, but we will have help from the Sun and Moon.
3. Said the man: “You came from the stars of the sky and gave me the World”
4. Going to the gates, I found two dead warriors and grabbed their swords from the bodies.
5. From their land, a people went Westwards and found their peace.


----------



## Elennainie (May 8, 2003)

Your I answers:

2. Shouldn't "aranenna" contract to "aranna"? I'm a bit fuzzy on the contractions Miss, though.  

3. "tultaiva" should be "tultaina" (passive part.)

4. typo - diaresis Talking missing on tullë; "harmammanna" should be "harmalvanna"; "sent it" should be "mentanes" (vocab. this lesson); "tárilyallo" should be "tárilyanna"

My To answers:

1. Tullentë i orontillon ú harmaron ar oanter i osto ondova.

2. Elendielvë núra nénna, nan haryuvalvë (help) Anarello ar Isillo.

3. Quentë i nér: "Tullel elenillon Menelo ar ánë nin Ambar." (not "equë b/c no proper noun or indep. pronoun)

4. Lelië andonnar, hirnen atta firini ohtari ar mapanen macilentar i hroallon.

5. Nórentallo, lië oantë You  Númello ar hirnë sérenta.

 Hiruvalyes?


----------



## gate7ole (May 8, 2003)

Your exercise:
About contractions my opinion is that it’s not that important. We can use both forms without making a mistake. I suppose it’s purely phonological. And *aranenna* doesn’t sound that bad and we may use it.

About the correction *harmammanna* to *harmalvanna*. This is funny, both of us are wrong. The correct is the third and last option! *harmalmanna*.
I see that you haven’t got right the we-pronouns. Probably you copied them wrong in your notebook  and never checked back. Let me remind you (so that you can correct the notebook and the summary):
lmë - inclusive 
mmë - exclusive
lvë – You and I

My exercises:
What can I say? No errors! Bravo!
2. Just a note. Why didn’t you use the plural for “waters”. Was it a conscious choice or did it slip you?


> Hiruvalyes?


Merin hiritas?


5 new sentences:
1. said Gandalf: “I didn’t come from fire and through water to find you” [fire ~ nár]
2. Out of the darkness rose mighty Ancalagon and all warriors felt horror.
3. The Gods set a light set upon our (you and I) path to guard us from the evil men.
4. Sending their final gift to the king, the Dwarves travelled to the mountains.
5. They didn’t pursue the warriors into the forest, and will release the lions on them. [forest ~ taurë]


----------



## Elennainie (May 9, 2003)

My answers to your exercises (no nulda messages this time!  )

1. Equë Gandalf: “Úmen tulë nárello ar ter nén hírien tye. (tye = thou, you as object; indep. pronoun)

2. I morniello ortanë taura Ancalagon ar ilyë ohtari runcer.

3. Valar (set) cala tiemmanna tírien (us) úmië nerillon. (I don’t know an indep. pronoun for "us", and I don’t think you can add it onto the gerund with dative ending, so how should we do this one?)

4. Mentala métima annanta aranna (or aranenna), i Naucor lender orontinnar.

5. Úmentë roita i ohtari i taurenna, ar leryuvantë i rávi tenna. (tenna? te = independent prounoun “them”, with allative ending added; can we do this? In Namárië, there is “nin”, an indep. pronoun with a dative ending, so it seems we could. How did you think this sentence should be translated?)





> 2. Just a note. Why didn’t you use the plural for “waters”. Was it a conscious choice or did it slip you?


Ummm...well, your sentence said "water" singular, so I just made it singular.  



> I see that you haven’t got right the we-pronouns. Probably you copied them wrong in your notebook and never checked back. Let me remind you (so that you can correct the notebook and the summary):


 This area is very confusing, since Tolkien himself kept changing his mind about the "we" pronouns. Thanks for the correction though. I'll try to learn these better, Sam.


----------



## gate7ole (May 10, 2003)

> no nulda messages this time!


Well, my turn?



> this area is very confusing, since tolkien himself kept changing his mind about the "we" pronouns. thanks for the correction though. I'll try to learn these better, Sam.


mmm, How are they confusing? i think that except the actual form of the “You and i”, the other forms (inclusive/exclusive) are definite. Ok I’m sure you’ll learn better them soon, frodo and won’t make confuse them again. 



> Ummm...well, your sentence said "water" singular, so i just made it singular


ooops

Wonderful Elennainie! as always, great 

1. tye = thou, you as object; indep pronoun. Right! didn’t know it

3. Every pronoun so far was in subject form, (only a couple of exceptions), so let’s wait for the object forms from the course…

4. Here, i used “telda” for final. i don’t know the word you used.
also, i used dative for “aran”, that is “aranen”. i believe it’s more appropriate here as it’s just the indirect object. Else, we would always use allative for give, send…

5. Right, i also used “tenna” here and since we both agree it must be correct  . but i used the preposition for “into” instead of allative. Either can be used i guess.


----------



## gate7ole (Jun 9, 2003)

*Lesson 15*
Summary


*More Pronominal Endings*

*-rya* ~ his/her
e.g. máryat ~ her/his pair of hands

The pronominal endings can be used with infinites (and possibly with gerunds), combined as follows:
from: *caritas* ~ to do it
we can add the “lya” ending and construct:
*caritalya(s)* ~ your doing (it).


*Locative Case*

1. Formation
The locative case is formed with the ending *-ssë*
Example:
cirya -> ciryassë (upon a ship)

For the plural, the ending used is *-ssen* (just adding an *n* to the normal ending:
coa -> coassen (in houses)

The dual is formed by the *-tsë*, while for the duals forms in *-u* we don’t have attested examples (but possibly the normal *-ssë* can be used):
ciryat -> ciryatsë 
aldu -> aldussë 

If impossible consonant clustes are caused by the ending of –ssë, a simple addition of the “e” for singular or “i” for plural is necessary:
elenessë
elenissen

2. Use
The locative is used for the meaning of the preposition “in”.
It can mean not only space but also time.
e.g. A shine stars on the hour of our meeting.
It is possible for some places to use the preposition *mi* (~ in) instead of the locative.

3. The locative can be used with all the known pronominal endings like the other cases.
E.g.
coanyassë ~ in my house.


*Relative Sentences*
The relative sentences are embedded in other sentences for descriptive reasons. They are all the that/who/which/whose etc clauses in the English language.
In Quenya, the relative sentences are formed by the word *ya* and the known article *i*. The latter is used only for the “who” clauses (which also don’t take another ending).
E.g
I harma ya hirnelyë ná alta : ~ the treasure which you found is great
I harmar yar… : ~ the treasure which …	(for plural)

The *ya* can take all the case endings, to form meaning like “whose, in which etc”. Examples:
Dative: *yan* ~ to whom
Genitive: *yo* ~ whose
Possessive: *yava* ~ whose
Allative: *yanna* ~ to which
Ablative: *yallo* ~ from which
Locative: *yassë* ~ in which

Note: sometimes an ending to *ya* may be omitted without changing the meaning.

Sometimes, the word *i* can be used in the beginning of sentences, starting a relative sentence, for the meaning of “the one who…”
E.g.
I lindëa ná nís ~ (the one) who is singing is a woman

Word Order.
The exact word order of relative sentences is obscure, so we should better not have any rules on this  .


Third Person Pronouns
There are many obscurities on this part of the pronoun table, which the professor continuously changed and left for us many gaps.
Among the possible pronouns for the meanings of “he/she” we have:
*ro / rë* ~ he/she
*ryë* ~ he/she/it
*s* ~ he/she/it
We could possibly use the *s* and *ryë* interchangeably as we do for the n/nyë ending for “I”.


----------



## Lantarion (Jun 10, 2003)

*Interjected Message*

Sory to interrupt, but I'd just like to ooh and aah over all of your knowledge in Quenya! It's astounding.. If I ever need to know something of the grammatical anomalies of the langauge this is the first place I'll go!! 


> _Originally posted by gate7ole_
> e.g. máryat ~ her/his pair of hands


LOL, that word (written _marjat_) means "the berries" in Finnish! 

Ahem, sorry; do carry on..


----------



## gate7ole (Jun 10, 2003)

*Re: Interjected Message*



> _Originally posted by Lantarion _
> *Sory to interrupt, but I'd just like to ooh and aah over all of your knowledge in Quenya! It's astounding.. If I ever need to know something of the grammatical anomalies of the langauge this is the first place I'll go!!
> 
> LOL, that word (written marjat) means "the berries" in Finnish!
> ...


Thanks!
If you ever have any questions about Quenya, me or Elennanie can solve it for you  (that is, after we have finished the course - 5 to go!)


----------



## Elennainie (Jun 11, 2003)

Nota bene: Rules: 

Not only must the sentence be translated into English, but a response sentence in Quenya must be constructed for each sentence. 

Exercises for lesson 15: ( I don't think we need to use third person pronouns on verbs, do you?)

1. In May, she lay in his arms, from which she did not wish ever to depart, and he gave her peace in the moonlight. (moonlight = isilmë)

2. The elf warrior lies upon his bed, watching a dead butterfly. (butterfly = wilwarin)

3. In the high, remote mountains, a white horse eats and two elves laugh and play forever on the paths of stone. (play = tyalin) (forever = oi)

4. The maiden who was living her dream, now is not able to speak and wants to depart from her land. (now = sí)

5. The warrior accepted one gift which the maiden had made him, but the second gift, a ring, is lost. 

6. The warrior travelled one of the two paths into the yellow wood (forest), which in his thoughts was good, and he travelled it alone. (thought = ósanwë) (yellow = malina)

7. A wise man said, “Time will seize your joy. Do not look for joy.” But the wiser Vala said, “I gave them seven days beneath the Sun, in which to find joy, and now it will live forever in the thoughts of the two friends.” (time = lúmë) (day of 24 hours = ré)


----------



## gate7ole (Jun 12, 2003)

1. Lótessessë, caitanes rancuryassen, yallo úmes merë oio auta, ar áneryeryen sere i isilmessë.
[?? áne-rye-rye-n: gave he her to]

2. I elda ohtar caitëa caimaryassë, cénala firin wilwarin.


3. I tárë, hairë orontissen, ninquë rocco mate ar atta Eldar lalir ar tyalinir oi i mallessen ondova.


4. I vendë i (was living) olorerya, sí umin polë quetë ar merë auta nóreryallo.

5. I ohtar (accepted) minë anna ya i vendë (had made?) acáries, nan i tatya anna, corma, ná vanwa.

6. I ohtar lendë minë i atta malleiva i malina taurenna, ya ósanweryassen né mára, ar lenderyes er.


7. I saila nér quetë, “ Lúmë mapuva alasselya. Úmë milya alassë.” Nan I assaila (wisest) Vala quetë, “’Anenyet otso ri nu Anar, yassë hire alassë, ar sí (it will live) oi ósanwessen i melduva
I used dual for “friends”  .

After one month, this was a very helpful exercise. It is very nice that we restart our Quenya lessons 
I hope there were not many errors. I had a hard time remembering all the past rules.

My sentences-answers. I hope there are not too many unknown words. If yes, leave them untranslated.

A. And shining like a star of the Sky, she danced in the moonlight, giving joy to him.
B. But his thoughts are in a fair maiden, to whom he is speaking.
C. And they are preparing for the Cottage of Lost Play, in which all their dreams come true.D. But she will find her peace and will accept her life, in which she must now dream new things again.
E. And the third gift, to which he is grateful, cannot be lost, for it remains in his heart.
F. And the warrior hopes the path which he travelled, to be the true.
G. The Vala, who is the wisest of all, spoke the truth, and the two friends for whom the Vala spoke, will keep their joy forever.


----------



## Elennainie (Jun 12, 2003)

F. Nan lendië sina tië eressë, ya ósanweryassen ná varien (varya) i vendë, i ohtar hehta venderya eressë, an sina is killing venderyava fëa. (sina = this, hehta = abandon)


----------



## Elennainie (Jun 16, 2003)

Sorry to keep you waiting for the answers. I was really picky since it has been awhile and I had to refresh my own mind on all this. So don't be sad!  

1. Lótessë caitanë rancuryassen, yallon umes merë oi auta, ar ánë (to her) sérë i isilmessë. (Could use Lotessesse, but Fausk. prefers to shorten it; either way is fine though. Yallon, not yallo. I don't think "áneryeryen" would work, b/c pronomial endings only work for direct objects and case endings don't go on verbs.)

2. perfect

3. Altë, hairë orontissen, ninquë rocco matë ar atta Eldar lalir ar tyalir oi i tiëssen ondova. (I used altë, but I much prefer your choice, meaning tall, lofty. And again, I used present tense “lalar” for “play”, but using the aorist which expresses eternal truths, as you did, is much more appropriate. So great job!)

4. I vendë i amárië? olorya, sí umë polë quetë ar melë auta nóreryallo. (do words ending in –r need an e inserted , like olorerya, as you did it, instead of olorya? umë, not umin “I do not, am not”)

5. I ohtar accepted minë anna ya i vendë acáries (for him), nan i tatya anna, corma, ná vanwa. (you left out “for him”, but I don’t think we know how to do this yet anyway)

6. I ohtar lendë minë atta tieon? mir i malina taurenna, ya ósanweryassen né mára, ar lendes er. (path = tië, so would gen. pl. be tion?, with the e dropping? lendes, not lenderyes)

7. Saila ner eque, “Lúmë mapuva alasselva. áva cenë alassen.” Nan i assaila Vala equë, “Anen ten otso ri nu Anar, yassen hirien alassë, ar sí maruva oi ósanwessen i atta melduva. (no “I”; equë, not quetë; milya?; áva cenë is “do not look” imperative but we haven’t learned that yet; I used “ten” which is unattested, dative ending on “te” indep. pronoun for them, it would not be “anenyet”, b/c “they” are not the direct object being given, something is being given _to_ them, so we’d use dative for indirect object; I used “yassen hirien” = literally “in which for finding”, but yours is equally correct and is how Fausk. was teaching us in this lesson; it will live = maruva; nice on the dual  )

I'll post my translations later today.


----------



## Elennainie (Jun 16, 2003)

I hope you aren’t too sleepy to understand _written_ Quenya! 

And you might have missed my question earlier: do you want to use the pronomial verb ending "-s", as we learned in this lesson, or do you just want to leave it off from now on? It seems unnecessary to me, since we can just use the endingless tense for third person, and it is confusing b/c it looks exactly like the direct object ending for "it".

I'll make up a few more exercises for this lesson, in addition to the 3 added to your responses below, and post them today or tomorrow. I'm not quite ready to go to the next lesson.

A. And shining like a star of the Sky, she danced in the moonlight, giving joy to him.   
Ar sílala ve elen Menelo, liltanes isilmessë, anië alassëa (to him). 

Ar (some) auressë liltuvas ata, an i mornië autuva, ar i melmë anmelda meldonyo síla ve alca mornieryassë. (ata = again) (alca = ray of light)

B. But his thoughts are in a fair maiden, to whom he is speaking.  Nan ósanwerya ná vanya vendessë, yassen quetas. 

Ma i sambë haryuva apa teluval norelyenna? Er firin wilwarin? (ma = what; tel = return; )

C. And they are preparing for the Cottage of Lost Play, in which all their dreams come true.
Ar preparantë (made up quenglish word!  ) i Mar Vanwa Tyaliéva, yassen ilyë olorinta tultuvar anwë. 

E. And the third gift, to which he is grateful, cannot be lost, for it remains in his heart.
Ar i nelya anna, yan ná (grateful), umë polë vanwa, an (it remains) hóneryassë. 

Mana i nelya anna? 

F. And the warrior hopes the path which he travelled, to be the true.
Ar i ohtar merë i tië ya lendes, ná i anwa.

G. The Vala, who is the wisest of all, spoke the truth, and the two friends for whom the Vala spoke, will keep their joy forever.
I Vala, i assaila ilyava, quentë i anwië, ar i meldu yassen i Vala quentë, haryuvar alassëanta oi. (I made the abstract noun “truth” out of the adj. anwa – hope it’s right!  )


----------



## Elennainie (Jun 16, 2003)

C. I atta eldar: (as they look orontessen oi).

Do you like it?


----------



## gate7ole (Jun 16, 2003)

I had the idea that Faramir was more handsome   
But Eowyn looks beautiful  
And what is the name of the tree behind?


----------



## gate7ole (Jun 17, 2003)

A.
i) why *anië* and not *antala*? Why did you use participle in the first “ing” and then gerund?  I don’t see any difference between the two instances.
ii) maybe the “to him” we could translate it as *ryen*??


B.
i) *nar vanyar* (I too always forget to use plural –sigh- )
ii) *yan* instead of yassen.

G.
i) mmm, I used “ilyo” genitive and not “ilyava” possessive.
ii) you think “for whom” uses locative? I’m at a loss. I might use allative, but maybe there is no case for the “for” meaning. What do you say?

The other sentences were correct. Well done!

Yours:

A.
And in some days, she will dance again, for the darkness will leave and the love (anmelda??) of my boy shines like a ray of light in his darkness

B.
What the room will have after you will return to your land? Only a dead butterfly?

E.
What is the third gift?



> And you might have missed my question earlier: do you want to use the pronomial verb ending "-s", as we learned in this lesson, or do you just want to leave it off from now on? It seems unnecessary to me, since we can just use the endingless tense for third person, and it is confusing b/c it looks exactly like the direct object ending for "it".


You mean to use the “rye” for “he” and “she”. I agree.


----------



## Elennainie (Jun 19, 2003)

Yours: (engwilya)

A. b/c I just messed up  ; "ryen" sounds good
G. "for whom" - I was trying to use dative, but I confused the locative ending with the dative ending, as I did above; in Latin at least dative is used for "to" and "for" so that was my best guess. Perhaps we'll learn how to do it in the remaining 5 lessons.

Mine: (engwinya)

A. And some day (singular) she will dance again, for the love of a most beloved (anmelda) friend (meldo, not seldo  ) shines as a ray of light in her darkness.

The rest, perfect. 



> You mean to use the “rye” for “he” and “she”. I agree.


 Actually, I meant to leave the endings off entirely, just for third person singular. We already have been just using the tenses without endings for this, and I think they are unecessary. What do you say? I'll go with whatever you decide, but I'd prefer using "-s" over using "rye" b/c Fausk. uses "-s" instead, if we have to use a pronomial ending.


----------



## Elennainie (Jun 19, 2003)

*Lesson Sixteen*

*I. Instrumental Case*
- indicates “by means of”, “with”, who or what makes something happen
- when used with a gerund, indicates “by doing such-and-such, x will occur” ex. Tiriénen i eleni, nauval lassëa. = By watching the stars, you will be happy.

singular:
*-nen* 

ex. aiwë >> aiwenen
ex. tasar >> tasarnen
ex. nís (niss) >> nissenen? (e inserted to avoid unwanted consonantal clusters)

plural:
*-inen* (for words ending in –ë and –i, drop final vowel and add ínen)

ex. aiwinen
ex. tasarinen
ex. lassínen
ex. tiriénen (for words ending in –ië, such as gerunds)

dual:
*-nten* (for duals in –t)
ex. mánten
*-unen* (for duals in –u)
ex. Aldunen


*II. Verbs with an Unaccented Vowel + -ta*
just memorize the two special forms of the three verbs, and forget the rest 

1.envinyata- (to renew)
past tense: envinyatánë; past participle: envinyanta

2. airita (to hallow, make holy)
past tense: airinta; past participle: airitánë

3. ninquitá (to whiten)
past tense: ninquinta; past participle: ninquitánë


*III. Imperative Tense*
used for commands, like “(Do) Make the next Quenya lesson summary quickly!”  & “Don’t be sad.”

*Á + infinitive (Áva + infinitive for negative commands)*
a-stems:
tulta >> Á tulta, Áva tulta 

primary stems:
mat >> Á matë, Áva matë


*IV. Nai ~** The Wishing Formula **~*
(gate7ole is groaning b/c he knows elennainië is going to use this one alot!)   

indicates “may it be that...”, “I wish that...” or simply “may...”

*Nai + future tense*

ex. Nai nauval oi lassëa. = May you be forever happy.


----------



## Elennainie (Jun 19, 2003)

How's this for obedience? The summary _and_ some exercises done lintavë as lightning!  

1. You renew me with the sanctuary of your friendship.

2. May the cup be hallowed by the touch of your lips. (add the proper ending to the English "touch" or be creative; no quenya vocab.)

3. May winter come swiftly to your rooms. 

4. Do not wound your eyes, for you will not be able to see the beautiful stars kindled by Varda. (kindle = tinta)

5. Break the wall with the mightiest hammers in all the World.

I expect all these translated correctly, into Greek, French and English, within 2 hours!


----------



## gate7ole (Jun 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Elennainie _
> *How's this for obedience? The summary and some exercises done lintavë as lightning!
> 
> I expect all these translated correctly, into Greek, French and English, within 2 hours! *


Good soldier!
Mmm, did the 2 hours pass? Sorry, but you will have to wait more


----------



## gate7ole (Jun 20, 2003)

Quenyanna:

1. Envinyatalyen i yánanen nilmelyo
[I used possessive, but maybe it’s genitive?]
2. Nai i yulma ná airinta i lepenen peulyava.
[I used my imagination  . Lepsë ~finger, so I figured that the noun meaning “finger” comes from the Quenya verb lep-, which means “to touch”  ]
3. Nai hrívë tuluva lintavë sambelyannar
4. Áva harna hendulya, ar úval polë cenë i vanyar eleni tintainë Vardanen.
5. Á racë i ramba i taurë nambainen ilya Ambariva.
[despite tricking me with the “in the World” translation, I didn’t use locative but possessive  ]

Greekenna:
1. Me ananeoneis me to agiastirio tis filias sou.
2. As kathagiastei to potiri apo to aggigma ton xeilion sou.
3. As erthei o xeimonas grigora sta domatia sas.
4. Min traymatizeis ta matia sou, dioti den tha mporeis na deis ta omorfa astra poy anapse i Varda.
5. Spase ton toixo me ta dynatotera sfuria tou Kosmou olou.

Frenchenna:
My French is not good at the moment, sorry.

Note on the exercises of Chapter 16 of the lesson.
I saw that the professor uses the allative case in cases like: “He spoke to me”. My question is why don’t we use dative? Isn’t it considered an indirect subject, like he spoke sth to me? I always thought we should use dative in such occasions. Because how does this differ from the sentence “He gave sth to me”, where we use dative?
Please, enlighten me…


----------



## gate7ole (Jun 20, 2003)

Here are five more exercises for your practice.
1. Friendship is stronger than a mighty city, because one cannot break it with a hammer. [tulca ~ strong]
2. With his swift hands, he grasped the cup of wine and hallowed the land to the West.
3. The wise man touched her with his hands and said to the maiden: “Don’t break your heart with sadness!” [use my word for “touch” and make up a word for sadness]
4. May their tale have a beautiful end and they will find each other in Arda Renewed.
5. With a last bright shining, Telperion gave a fruit and died. [telda ~ last, yávë ~ fruit, also for shining you can derive the noun from the verb]


----------



## Scatha (Jun 21, 2003)

Question, would it be possible to start up a new thread for the newer members, so they can enjoy the tutoring of our fair elven language? (That includes myself.)


----------



## gate7ole (Jun 22, 2003)

Scatha, we would like to help the newer members to learn the new language. But you see, this effort is difficult and from my experience I know that most people don’t take it seriously and drop off almost immediately as soon as they understand the time it takes. 
If you are willing to start studying the Quenya language, I think that this exact thread will be extremely helpful. It contains all summaries for every chapter (until 16) and for each chapter there are exercises made by us and solved by us. Also whenever we had any vague points we discussed it, so you may find many questions you have, already answered. And if this is not enough, if you still have questions on any matter, or if you want more exercises, we will be always willing to help you and answer the questions as long as we know them. 
I would suggest that you find one or two people in the forum that are also willing to learn the language seriously and open a new thread. This is the best way to learn Quenya. From our part it is difficult to open a new thread, but I also find it unnecessary, since we have left a fairly nice amount of work at this thread. Combining this with the course we follow, a dedicated student can learn Quenya.
I hope that you will start this effort and for any question you have, we will always be here.


----------



## Elennainie (Jun 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by gate7ole _
> *
> Note on the exercises of Chapter 16 of the lesson.
> I saw that the professor uses the allative case in cases like: “He spoke to me”. My question is why don’t we use dative? Isn’t it considered an indirect subject, like he spoke sth to me? I always thought we should use dative in such occasions. Because how does this differ from the sentence “He gave sth to me”, where we use dative?
> Please, enlighten me… *



I have this same exact question! I don't know the answer yet, (so no enlightenment ability  ) but I would have used dative also. Perhaps the answer is back in the allative chapter. I'll take a look.

Scatha, I agree with everything gate7ole has said. I can't remember how many times I have tried to help a new member wanting to learn Quenya, and then they didn't follow through. But I'd love to help anyone committed. Just use this thread for your course guide and ask us any questions that aren't already answered.


----------



## Scatha (Jun 22, 2003)

I am in possession of the course provided on Ardalambion, which to my knowledge is the most original in it's composition. I am quite sure that our fellow tolkienology member Eol eagerly wishes to learn the language, just as I do.

How many serious students are needed for a new thread, because I might know where to drum up some more? 

Meanwhile I will start from the beginning of this thread.


----------



## gate7ole (Jun 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Scatha _
> *I am in possession of the course provided on Ardalambion, which to my knowledge is the most original in it's composition. I am quite sure that our fellow tolkienology member Eol eagerly wishes to learn the language, just as I do.
> 
> How many serious students are needed for a new thread, because I might know where to drum up some more?
> ...



Believe me, just two is enough. Me and Elennainie have carried off the lectures alone from almost the 5th chapter. And sometimes more people are difficult to be organized - coordinated.


----------



## Scatha (Jun 22, 2003)

Great, give me a little time to talk to Eol, so we can decide when we will open a new thread for it. (due to vacations and such)

You just got yourself two students, I think.


----------



## Elennainie (Jun 23, 2003)

Regarding our question about the correct case for "speaking to", I reread both chapter 13 and chapter 14, and here is what I found:

Chapter 13:
an indirect object is defined by Fausk. as "an object indirectly affected by the verbal action of the sentence...often the beneficiary of the verbal action"

I would definitely consider Plato, in the sentence "Socrates is speaking to Plato", the beneficiary of the action, as well as the object indirectly affected by Socrates' action of speaking. Thus, I would consider Plato the indirect object, and indirect objects take dative.

However, "speaking to" is neither used in any of Fausk's examples from Tolk. in his discussion of this chapter, nor in any of the exercises Fausk. made for this chapter.

Chapter 14:
Christopher Tolkien is quoted as saying the allative is the "suffix...of movement towards"

I would not consider Socrates' speaking to Plato as a movement towards. Motion seems to be the key in the allative case, but speaking to someone does not really involve motion towards.

However, this is the key: Fausk. cites a Tolkien example from The Peoples of Middle Earth: "Sin Quentë Quendingoldo Elendi*lenna*," translated "Thus Spoke Q. to Elendil." So this is where he must be basing his use of allative for "speaking to."

You and I must decide which is correct. I still think "speaking to" takes an indirect object, and should therefore take dative. I also appreciate Fauskanger's authority on Quenya. So what do you want to do?

P.S. I'll have your answers today for the exercises.


----------



## Elennainie (Jun 23, 2003)

*



1. Envinyatalyen i yánanen nilmelyo
[I used possessive, but maybe it’s genitive?]

Click to expand...

*Nilmelyo _is_ genitive; you must have meant possessive. I used possessive "nilmelyava" for a permanent attribute or characteristic of a place, but you know the genitive/possessive distinctions better than I do, so yours is probably correct also. Anyway, the happy  thing here is the reason for my using possessive.

*



2. Nai i yulma ná airinta i lepenen peulyava.
[I used my imagination  . Lepsë ~finger, so I figured that the noun meaning “finger” comes from the Quenya verb lep-, which means “to touch”  ]

Click to expand...

*I love your word!   The sentence is perfect.

*



3. Nai hrívë tuluva lintavë sambelyannar

Click to expand...

*perfect!

*



4. Áva harna hendulya, ar úval polë cenë i vanyar eleni tintainë Vardanen.

Click to expand...

*"vanyar" should be "vanyë", probably a typo b/c you did "tintainë" correctly...oh those long-past lessons when Quenya was so simple... 

*



5. Á racë i ramba i taurë nambainen ilya Ambariva.
[despite tricking me with the “in the World” translation, I didn’t use locative but possessive  ]

Click to expand...

* tricking you??! would I ever do such a thing?   "taurë" should be "antaurë"

*



Greekenna:
1. Me ananeoneis me to agiastirio tis filias sou.
2. As kathagiastei to potiri apo to aggigma ton xeilion sou.
3. As erthei o xeimonas grigora sta domatia sas.
4. Min traymatizeis ta matia sou, dioti den tha mporeis na deis ta omorfa astra poy anapse i Varda.
5. Spase ton toixo me ta dynatotera sfuria tou Kosmou olou.

Click to expand...

*ummmm....looks good to me!


----------



## Elennainie (Jun 23, 2003)

My answers to your Lesson 16 exercises:

1. Nilmë ná antulca (than) taura osto, an quen umë polë racis nambanen.

2. Lintë máryanten, mapanë i yulma limpo ar airitánë i nórë Rómenna.

3. I saila nér lempes maryanten ar equë venden: Áva racë hónelya nainienen. (I used "nainië" lament, for sadness, and "lempes" is your verb  lep- with nasal infixion for past tense and -s for "her" direct object.)

4. Nai nyárelva haryuva vanya metta ar hiruvantë máca (other) Ardassë Envinyanta.  nice use of "renewed" and a nice thought as well 

5. Calima silienen, Telperion ánë yávë ar firnë.  (I hope it's correct to put the instrumental ending of the abstract noun "silië" from sil- "to shine".)


****And before we move on to the next lesson, we must decide:

1. which case to use for "speaking to" (see my post above)
2. whether to use -s ending for "he/she + verb" or just leave it off, like we used to, i.e. "mapa" = he grasps instead of "mapas."


----------



## Elennainie (Jun 23, 2003)

More practice for lesson 16:

Complete each sentence with a reason why, written in Quenya:

E.g. Do not challenge Morgoth eressë, an .....
Do not challenge Morgoth alone, an you will be defeated.


1. Áva tulta ilya Elda yánenna orontissen, an ...

2. (Although) i vendë umé alya harmanen maltava, né analya, an ...

3. Coivuvantet nyellinen nyénio, an ... (coiva – awake; nyéni – goat; nyellë – bell) 

4. “Áva racë vérelya,” equë Manwë, an ...

5. Á sucë nin eressë hendulyantë, an ...

6. Á envinyata sírenen quen harnaina ehterya, an ...


----------



## gate7ole (Jun 23, 2003)

1. *racitas* instead of racis. Remember that strange rule?
2. *Númenna*, to West.
3. I used *mauryanen* for the dual of hands, but it's ok if you use plural I guess
4. *nyarenta* for their tale and not our tale 
5. you forgot telda for last, but I also trabslated the "with a shining", like you did. So, we can't be both wrong. 

As you can see your errors were very minor, and it's natural for us to make such small errors with all these rules.



> ****And before we move on to the next lesson, we must decide:
> 
> 1. which case to use for "speaking to" (see my post above)
> 2. whether to use -s ending for "he/she + verb" or just leave it off, like we used to, i.e. "mapa" = he grasps instead of "mapas."


1. since the prof uses allative, we have to use it too.
2.I think we should use the -s ending. that's my opinion

Anyway, I will try to prepare the next lesson soon. My opinion is that the new rules aren't that difficult anymore. The hard thing it to remember ALL of them! So, let's get going with all rules and then we will know all the grammar!
P.S. I don't see any passive voice  Won't we learn it?


----------



## gate7ole (Jun 24, 2003)

*Lesson Seventeen*

*Demonstratives*

The Quenya demonstratives are:
*sina*: ~ this
*tan(y)a*: ~ that
*enta*: ~ that (yonder)
*yana*: ~ that (former)

There are two possible explanations on the differences on the various “that” words.

i) there are three degrees of nearness:
_sina_ : near the speaker
_tan(y)a_: far from the speaker, but near the listener
_enta_: far from the speaker and the listener

ii) when referring to time (e.g. the sentences “that day”) we have:
_enta_: referring to the future 
_yana_ : referring to the past
_tan(y)a_: neutral

*Plural*
The plural of the demonstratives is formed like the adjectives:
sina -> sinë
tan(y)a -> tan(y)ë
enta -> entë
yana -> yanë

But it is possible that the demonstratives are used as nouns (e.g. “this is a house”), where possibly the plural is formed like nouns (e.g. sina -> sinar).


*Inflecting the last word *
When a noun get a case-ending and it is also described by adjectives, there is a possible rule that the last of sequences of the words of the noun plus the adjectives gets the case:
E.g. 
*isilmë ilcalassë* (~ gleaming moonlight)
instead of 
*isilmessë ilcala*

Also, when more than one words are referred by a case, then possibly only the last one receives the ending:
*Namna Finwë Míriello* (~ stature of Finwë and Míriel)
Instead of
*Namna Finwello Míriello*

But the above rule is not strict and may be or not be used.


*U-Stem Nouns *
This is an irregular category of nouns. We won’t be bothered with the details of the irregularity. Just the essential rules:

Nouns ending in *-go* and have a u-stem:
*ango -> angwi* (plural)

Nouns ending in *-co* and have a u-stem:
*urco -> urqui* (plural)

In both categories when a case ending is added, we have to use the special rule for the plural _if_ the plural of the case involves the vowel *i*. 
E.g.
ango -> angwi
anguo -> angwion (genitive)
anguva -> angwiva (possessive)
angun -> angwin (dative)
angunna -> angunnar (allative)
angullo -> angullon (ablative)
angusse -> angussen (locative)
angunen -> angwien (instrumental)


*Ordinals *

The ordinals from fourth to ninth are formed by using the *-ëa* ending to the cardinal number:
e.g.
*canta -> cantëa * (~fourth)
*lempë -> lempëa * (~fifth)
etc


----------



## gate7ole (Jun 24, 2003)

This chapter didn’t give us many new rules. The U-stems are rare, the inflection rule is easy to memorize, the ordinals are easy too. Just the demonstratives, which means only 4 new words to learn. So, I suggest only to make the exercises made by the professor for us and quickly move to the next lesson. Do you agree? Please?


----------



## gate7ole (Jun 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Elennainie _
> *More practice for lesson 16:
> 
> Complete each sentence with a reason why, written in Quenya:
> ...



1. Áva tulta ilya Elda yánenna orontissen, an rimbë tiruvar i osto.

2. (Although) i vendë umé alya harmanen maltava, né analya, an né alya órë ar feassë. 

3. Coivuvantet nyellinen nyénio, an i lúmë utúlië autanna.
[again I use a case for verbs – I wonder if I can do it]

4. “Áva racë vérelya,” equë Manwë, an oirë mornië mapuval

5. Á sucë nin eressë hendulyantë, an envinyatuval hroalya lintavë

6. Á envinyata sírenen quen harnaina ehterya, an firuvas.
[I’m at a loss what you mean – the translation goes like:
_Renew by the river someone wounded his spear, for…_
Did you mean to use instrumental for the spear, and if yes, was he wounded by his own spear?  ]


----------



## Elennainie (Jun 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by gate7ole _
> 3. Coivuvantet nyellinen nyénio, an i lúmë utúlië autanna.
> [again I use a case for verbs – I wonder if I can do it]


 Unfortunately, I am pretty sure we cannot use a case ending on verb. 



> 5. Á sucë nin eressë hendulyantë, an envinyatuval hroalya lintavë


 Help me out here, I can't understand your "why" -- "because you shall renew your body swiftly"? My part said "Drink to me only with your eyes."



> 6. Á envinyata sírenen quen harnaina ehterya, an firuvas.
> [I’m at a loss what you mean – the translation goes like:
> _Renew by the river someone wounded his spear, for…_
> Did you mean to use instrumental for the spear, and if yes, was he wounded by his own spear?  ]


 Yes, I forgot the instrumental ending. I meant "Renew by means of the river one wounded by his (someone else's) spear."

Will you be making any exercises for lesson 17? Or perhaps we can just do some for 17 & 18 together?


----------



## gate7ole (Jun 27, 2003)

*LESSON 18*


*Independent Pronouns*

Continuing the complex study of the pronoun table, we are finally given more object pronouns, as well as some independent pronouns. Summarizing the long discussion which contains many ambiguities, we have the following pronouns:
*ni* ~ I ->object form *nye*
*le* ~ you (polite singular or plural) ->object form *le*?
*ce*? ~ you (intimate singular) ->object form *tye*
*ta* ~ it ->object form *ta*?
*me* ~ we (exclusive) ->object form *me*?
*te*? ~ we (exclusive) ->object form *te*

*with an question mark are the uncertain ones

All the above are _independent_, meaning that they are not used as endings to the verbs.
The use of the object forms is of course the expected: they are used as objects in sentences. But except this, there are also other uses for both the object and subject forms:
i) They are used to receive case endings. The case ending is _not_ used with the object but with the subject form:
*nin* for me
*ninna* towards me
ii) They appear following prepositions:
*imbë me* between us


*Impersonal Verbs*

Some words are used without subject and they are called impersonal. Examples of such Quenyan verbs are:
*or-* ~ urge, impel
*óla-* ~ dream (since “dreaming” is not an action we do; we “receive” the dreams)
*mauya* ~ must, need

The impersonal verbs are used in Quenya followed by a dative to the “object”.
E.g.
*Orë nin caritas* ~ [it] impels for me to do it (literal translation)

Also, impersonal can be used with no object at all!
*Ulya* ~ [it] rains


*U-Stem Verbs*
Another category of obscure rules for a special category of verbs, those that finish in –u. We should better not get involved in any discussion, but just learn the rules:
palu- ~ expand
palo (infinitive)
pálua (present)
palwë – palwi (aorist)
palúva (future)
palunë (past)
apálië (perfect)
pálula (active participle)
paluina (passive participle)
Note that only the active participle is sure, while for the other forms we can only speculate


*Various Uses of Lá**

1st Use:
For negation. We simply add the word lá before the verb that gets the negation. It is an alternative of the verb umë. E.g.
Lá lenden ~ I didn’t go

2nd Use:
For comparison. E.g.
A (ná) calima lá B ~ A is brighter than B.*


----------



## gate7ole (Jun 27, 2003)

I didn't prepare any questions for 17&18 chapters, since I didn't have time to do it now. Besides we can do the exercises of the lessons first and then anyone of us can post new exercises.


----------



## gate7ole (Jun 27, 2003)

Two Notes

1.


> _Originally posted by Elennainie _
> *Unfortunately, I am pretty sure we cannot use a case ending on verb. *


Why do you say this? When we use dative like in a sentence:
"I come to do this"
Don't we say:
"Tulen caren sina"
where caren is the dative of car- ?
If we can use verb+case ending here, why can't we use it elsewhere as well?

2.
The prof. seems to use the passive voice with passive participles + instrumental:
"the man wounded by a lion, is dead"
"I ner harnaina ravesse, na firin"

But what if we want to say:
"the man is wounded by a lion"?
Can it be:
"I ner na harnaina ravesse"?
I wonder, since I didn't find any passive voice mention in the last two chapter that are left.


----------



## Elennainie (Jun 28, 2003)

> Why do you say this? When we use dative like in a sentence: "Tulen caren sina"
> where caren is the dative of car- ?
> If we can use verb+case ending here, why can't we use it elsewhere as well?



1. In your sentence, you are showing purpose by using a verb + a gerund, from chapter 13. Caren is a gerund, a verb masquerading as a noun, not simply a verb. However, I believe the correct form is: car- + ië (gerund ending) + -n (dative ending) = carien? I may be wrong, but I reread that section and this is how it seems to me. 

Fausk, Ch.13: "One important use of the gerud which luckily _is_ attested in our tiny corpus...used to indicate _purpose_....Since a gerund may be described as a verb functioning as a noun, it may also receive _case endings_ as a noun....This example seems to tell us that English infinitives indicating purpose should be rendered into Quenya as gerunds with a dative ending attached."

I haven't seen any other use of a verb with case endings from Fausk.

2. I don't know. It wouldn't be correct in English, but having a passive voice would be really helpful, so whatever you think is best, Sam. 

Almost at the end - let's enjoy these last few chapters of learning this beautiful language together. We have come so far and given so much to it.


----------



## gate7ole (Jun 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Elennainie _
> *1. In your sentence, you are showing purpose by using a verb + a gerund, from chapter 13. Caren is a gerund, a verb masquerading as a noun, not simply a verb. However, I believe the correct form is: car- + ië (gerund ending) + -n (dative ending) = carien? I may be wrong, but I reread that section and this is how it seems to me.
> 
> Fausk, Ch.13: "One important use of the gerud which luckily is attested in our tiny corpus...used to indicate purpose....Since a gerund may be described as a verb functioning as a noun, it may also receive case endings as a noun....This example seems to tell us that English infinitives indicating purpose should be rendered into Quenya as gerunds with a dative ending attached."
> ...



You're right with 1. It's in gerund form that we add case endings. Which explains why it needed gerund+dative. Because we can't use case endings with verbs 
thanks for clearing it up


----------



## Manveru (Aug 17, 2003)

*a MINOR interruption...*

I've recently got a lot more (free) time, so I decided to start learning this "anscient" and beautiful language (I always wanted to... but there always was so little time to sit and learn). 

Now I'm on lesson 6 of the Course provided on Ardalambion.com and I also consult it with your 'summaries' of each lesson (I must admit... they're great and what's more very helpful--->BIG THX for that).

"Manv*Eru* méla ilyë lier Endorion"* 

*sorry if I made any mistake in the above sentence... I'm a beginner, but I couldn't stop myself from trying... COULD ANYONE CHECK THIS FOR ME, PLEASE??

THX in advance


----------



## Elennainie (Aug 17, 2003)

Good job Manveru! Just one correction: Endorion should be "Endoro" - Endor + o (singular genitive ending). I haven't studied for a while, so I'm rusty, but I think that's right. Have fun learning Quenya! And we're so glad our summaries are helpful to you. We put alot of time and love into them.


----------



## Manveru (Aug 18, 2003)

WoW! Only one mistake?! That's good, I guess

Anyway... BIG THX for the correction Elennainie.


> Have fun learning Quenya!


Thx. I've already had... and I know I will...


> And we're so glad our summaries are helpful to you. We put alot of time and love into them.


It can be SEEN.


----------



## Elennainie (Sep 6, 2003)

Aiya! Welcome to the new Quenya students from Elvish 101 at DragonCon! 

As you may know, my friend and I created this thread to be used in conjunction with Helge Fauskanger's Quenya course at ardalambion.com. We spent many months learning together and crafting summaries and extra exercises, and we are very happy to have new people use them to learn this beautiful language, or _vanya lambë_.

*And for anyone who lives in the Atlanta, GA area, there is a Quenya study group being formed. PM me for details!*

I highly recommend downloading the ardalambion.com course and studying each lesson from there before reading our summaries and doing the exercises. Fauskanger is the master; we were just summarizing and making it into a form more easily accessible. 

Some links you will find helpful:

A good English to Quenya dictionary online:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/2196/index.html

The course and Quenya wordlist:
www.ardalambion.com

Dan Smith's Tengwar fonts to install on your computer:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/4948/

Learning Quenya takes commitment. We had many in our fellowship that joined us for a little while, or started out in the beginning, then went their own way. But if you stick with it, you will love it!!!   

If you have any questions at all, just post here and I'll be glad to help you as much as I can. Gate7ole is away for a while, but I'm sure he'll be glad to help when he gets out of the army.


----------



## Manveru (Sep 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Elennainie _
> *And for anyone who lives in the Atlanta, GA area, there is a Quenya study group being formed. PM me for details!*


I wish I were.

I guess the online course left only... and I'm going to learn from it as much as I can.

BTW: THX for the links... (that one with online dictionary may prove to be useful).

_Quenya ná i anvanya lambë._*

*I hope I didn't make any mistakes...


----------



## Elennainie (Sep 6, 2003)

> I wish I were.


 We wish you were too! 

Bravo, Manveru! Perfect!  And I completely agree, although Greek and Arabic are pretty cool too...

I just learned how to say "this is a table" in Greek today:

Auto einai trapezi.  Now you say it in Quenya....


----------



## Manveru (Sep 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Elennainie _
> *I just learned how to say "this is a table" in Greek today:
> 
> Auto einai trapezi.  Now you say it in Quenya.... *


Sorry, but I couldn't find a word "table" in Quenya (that's strange... maybe I missed it... I'll look again). I replaced "table" with "horse":

_Sina ná rocco._

Correct? I hope so.


----------

