# Arnor in the Fourth Age



## Sauron (Nov 14, 2005)

Hi, I'm pretty new to this site.

It is mentioned in the LoTR trilogy (I forget where exactly, though I think it was either in the Return of the King, or the Appendix -I do not have access to the Unfinished Tales) that Arnor was re-established at the beginning of King Elessar's reign, presumably as a tributary backwater to Gondor with no king of its own. My question: did Tolkien ever give clues as to whether Arnor eventually reclaimed itself as an independent kingdom sometime in the Fourth Age? 

Or will we never know?


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## Ithrynluin (Nov 14, 2005)

Hullo Sauron and well met (now there's a sentence I never thought I'd say in my life ).

If I recall correctly, there is no mention of Arnor splitting away from the rest of the Reunited Kingdom, which King Elessar established after Sauron's fall. I wouldn't call it a backwater tributary, though. I believe it was at least as equal in worth or prestige as any other part of the realm.


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## Voronwë (Nov 14, 2005)

Perhaps Elessar set up one of the Dunedaìn at Annumìnas, much like Faramir in Ithilien, to govern the lands in his stead? It is known that he lived his reign in the Citadel of Kings.


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## Maeglin (Nov 14, 2005)

Yes but he also did visit the North Kingdom several times, and would sometimes stay there for extended periods of time, but I think it was more like a summer home sort of thing for him. There is no mention of someone else governing in Arnor, but it certainly would make sense logically and is a strong possibility.


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## Alcuin (Nov 14, 2005)

Well, I think we can assume that the bridge at Tharbad was reconstructed, and it was once again an inland port facility. Tolkien tells us that Annúminas was rebuilt, so the idea that there was a vice-regent or governor chosen from one of the northern Dúnedain is a good bet. No mention is made of the reconstruction of either Fornost or Amon Sûl, but given the importance of those sites in Arnor’s history, they were probably rebuilt. Technically, Imladris would have fallen under the political control of Aragorn Elessar after the departure of Elrond, but since Elladan and Elrohir apparently lived there for some time (as Sam told his daughter Elanor in the “Epilogue” in _Sauron Defeated_), it is unlikely that Aragorn exerted any undue influence there: Elladan and Elrohir and the remaining Eldar of Imladris were important allies, and as far as the northern Dúnedain were concerned, Elladan and Elrohir were peers of the realm. The importance of the place at the western end of the High Pass of the Great East Road over the Misty Mountains made it strategically important. The same would be true of Lindon and its port facilities: as long as any Eldar remained there, it is unlikely that the Dúnedain would try to exercise any political influence. 

Bree no doubt became once again an important town in the North. The Shire was the ancient royal demesne of Arnor, and in effect, reverted to that position under Aragorn with the Mayor, Thain, and Master of Buckland as his royal governors. The Tyrn Gorthad region (the barrow-downs) and Minhiriath between the Brandywine and the Greyflood had previously been the most populated regions of Arnor, if I remember correctly, and over the next couple of centuries, might have once again been more thickly settled.

There is no reason to consider Arnor a backwater, although the folk of Gondor might have been taught to think of it that way: that idea seems to have been planted when Arvedui made his claim on the throne based upon his marriage to Fíriel daughter of Ondoher at the end of the second millennium of the Third Age, and was repeated in bitterness by Denethor at the Stewards’ mausoleum in Rath Dínen. 

Moreover, Aragorn was born King of Arnor, even if he only took the title Chieftain of the Dúnedain of the North. When he was crowned King of Gondor, he was wearing the Star of the North on his brow as the royal symbol of kingship, and so at that point, he became king of both kingdoms, rather like the first pharaoh of Egypt, variously either Menes or Narmer, who combined Upper and Lower Egypt from two kingdoms into one and who wore the Double Crown combining the Red Crown of Lower Egypt and the White Crown of Upper Egypt. This seems to be reflected in the symbol of Aragorn wearing the Star of the North (not a physically tall symbol, rather like the Red Crown) and the high helm of Gondor (which Tolkien drew in one of his _Letters _and looks rather like the old White Crown). 

And since Aragorn was born King of Arnor, it is reasonable to assume that he took some pains to see to it that part of his realm was restored as well as possible because it represented his royal heritage and unbroken claim to be King of the Númenóreans in Middle-earth.


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## Maeglin (Nov 14, 2005)

All good points, the only thing I would say to it is that the Shire never came under the rule of Arnor. The Appendices tell us that Aragorn gave the Shire over completely to the rule of the of the half-lings, and that no man would be allowed to enter it without permission.


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## Sauron (Nov 14, 2005)

Ithrynluin said:


> If I recall correctly, there is no mention of Arnor splitting away from the rest of the Reunited Kingdom, which King Elessar established after Sauron's fall. I wouldn't call it a backwater tributary, though. I believe it was at least as equal in worth or prestige as any other part of the realm.


I think what I meant by 'backwater' was that the monarchy of the reunited realms is no longer -for lack of a better word- _headquartered_ in Annuminas or Fornost, though the King and the royal family may visit from time to time -it is Minas Tirith that is the capital of the reunited kingdom, and not these two northern cities. 

Hence my inquiry about whether sometime later in the Fourth Age that Arnor becomes its own kingdom again rather than remain a part of Gondor.


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## Alcuin (Nov 14, 2005)

Sauron said:


> I think what I meant by ‘backwater’ was that the monarchy of the reunited realms is no longer -for lack of a better word- headquartered in Annuminas or Fornost, though the King and the royal family may visit from time to time -it is Minas Tirith that is the capital of the reunited kingdom, and not these two northern cities.
> 
> Hence my inquiry about whether sometime later in the Fourth Age that Arnor becomes its own kingdom again rather than remain a part of Gondor.


 Perhaps. It would stand to reason, I suppose, and since Arnor had fragmented in the first millennium of the Third Age into 3 daughter kingdoms, perhaps there was also precedent for sectarian tendencies in the North. However, there is no mention of it in the corpus of Tolkien’s work, as far as I am aware.


Maeglin said:


> All good points, the only thing I would say to it is that the Shire never came under the rule of Arnor. The Appendices tell us that Aragorn gave the Shire over completely to the rule of the of the half-lings, and that no man would be allowed to enter it without permission.


 On the contrary, the Shire was indeed ultimately under the rule of Aragorn; otherwise, by what authority could he command that no Men enter the territory without leave of the Halflings?

In the chapter “Many Partings” of _Return of the King_, Aragorn himself reminds the four hobbits that he is King of Arnor and of the Shire as well:


> But the Palantir of Orthanc the King will keep, to see what is passing in his realm, and what his servants are doing. For do not forget, Peregrin Took, that you are a knight of Gondor, and I do not release you from your service. You are going now on leave, but I may recall you. And remember, dear friends of the Shire, that my realm lies also in the North, and I shall come there one day.


 And the hobbits proclaim their actions under royal authority to the ruffians in “The Scouring of the Shire”:


> ‘Yes, I see,’ said Frodo. ‘For one thing, I see that you’re behind the times and the news here. Much has happened since you left the South. Your day is over, and all other ruffians’. The Dark Tower has fallen, and there is a King in Gondor. And Isengard has been destroyed, and your precious master is a beggar in the wilderness. I passed him on the road. The King’s messengers will ride up the Greenway now not bullies from Isengard.’
> 
> The man stared at him and smiled. ‘A beggar in the wilderness!’ he mocked. ‘Oh, is he indeed? Swagger it, swagger it, my little cock-a-whoop. But that won’t stop us living in this fat little country where you have lazed long enough. And’ – he snapped his fingers in Frodo’s face – ‘King’s messengers! That for them! When I see one, I’ll take notice, perhaps.’
> 
> ...


 In the “Epilogue” published in _Sauron Defeated_, which Tolkien had originally intended to be the final chapter of _Lord of the Rings_ (Tolkien lamented in Letter 144 that it was “so universally condemned that I shall not insert it”), Sam receives a letter from Aragorn commanding him to appear at the Brandywine Bridge. Aragorn could not do that unless he retained sovereignty over the Shire and suzerainty over its government.

Finally, in Appendix A of _RotK_, in the section “(iii) Eriador, Arnor, and the Heirs of Isildur” there is the passage to which I believe you refer:


> There were fourteen Chieftains, before the fifteenth and last was born, Aragorn II, who became again King of both Gondor and Arnor. ‘Our King, we call him; and when he comes north to his house in Annúminas restored and stays for a while by Lake Evendim, then everyone in the Shire is glad. But he does not enter this land and binds himself by the law that he has made, that none of the Big People shall pass its borders. But he rides often with many fair people to the Great Bridge, and there he welcomes his friends, and any others who wish to see him; and some ride away with him and stay in his house as long as they have a mind. Thain Peregrin has been there many times; and so has Master Samwise the Mayor. His daughter Elanor the Fair is one of the maids of Queen Evenstar.’


 “Our King.” I would say that rather settles it. Aragorn made a law that only hobbits might enter the Shire, the royal demesne, and he obeyed his own law. Again, he could not make or enforce such an edict unless he had authority over the region. (Although I wonder if the dwarves paid any heed to it; the Great East Road was originally a Dwarven construction; perhaps they were exempted, and the Elves, too, who were passing to Lindon).

Sauron (the TTFer!) wondered (in this thread - and it is _still_ the subject of the thread) whether Arnor might subsequently have seceded from the Reunited Kingdom. We might also wonder along the same lines how long it might be before one of the High Kings descended from Aragorn or one of their regents in the North took a more direct role in the governance of the Shire. Certainly after the Eldar left Lindon there would have been considerable economic pressure to reopen the East Road that passed over the Brandywine Bridge, through Hobbiton and Michel Delving and on to the Grey Havens. But again, Tolkien never says anything about it – except that hobbits “are (or were) a little people, about half our height, and smaller than the bearded Dwarves. ... There is little or no magic about them, except the ordinary everyday sort which helps them to disappear quietly and quickly when large stupid folk like you and me come blundering along…” And in the Prologue to _Fellowship of the Ring_, 


> Even in ancient days they were, as a rule, shy of ‘the Big Folk’, as they call us, and now they avoid us with dismay and are becoming hard to find. ...
> 
> For they are a little people, smaller than Dwarves: less stout and stocky, that is, even when they are not actually much shorter. Their height is variable, ranging between two and four feet of our measure. They seldom now reach three feet; but they have dwindled, they say, and in ancient days they were taller. ...
> 
> It is plain indeed that in spite of later estrangement Hobbits are relatives of ours: far nearer to us than Elves, or even than Dwarves. Of old they spoke the languages of Men, after their own fashion, and liked and disliked much the same things as Men did. But what exactly our relationship is can no longer be discovered. ...


 So clearly, they were eventually disinherited of the Shire.


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## Starbrow (Nov 14, 2005)

A very thourough and convincing post Alcuin.

I kind of figured that the term Big People meant humans, since it is similar to how they are referred to in Bree as the Big Folk.


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## Sauron (Nov 15, 2005)

Thank you for all your replies. Very informative....


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## Sauron (Nov 16, 2005)

A few more things -I know the former kingdoms of Arthedain and Cardolan were eventually peopled again by the Dunedain. What about Rhudaur? And was the Ettenmoors (that marked the northern-most boundary of that kingdom) left unoccupied?


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## Ingwë (Nov 17, 2005)

I think that Rhudaur was left uninhabited because it was evil place just like Minas Morgul. And as Arvedui already mentioned in the thread Osgiliath After the War of the Ring there weren't enough men to dwell in these lands. The realm didn't have big population because of the Wars. We know that a few Dunedains lived in the territories of the North Kingdom. Who would dwell in there if there aren't enough men. They weren't enough even for one city...


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