# Most upsetting incident in Quenta Silmarillion



## Illuin

I’m not sure if this subject was polled already sometime in the past, but I’m curious to know what incident was most upsetting to readers of _The Silmarillion_. I realize I’ve listed quite a few choices, but I wanted to see which choice aroused the most emotion.


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## Confusticated

I voted for Finrod's death because it came to mind first, though when I vote for it I am also voting for the fact that his people at Nargothrond abandoned him.

This would have been a good poll to allow multiple choices. When Hurin and Morwen found eachother is one of the worst for me.

The kinslayings were all upsetting, but particularly when Maedhros repenting tried to find the child sons of Doir in the woods of Doriath but was not able to. The death of Fingon and Maglor's casting away of the silmaril to wander alone were sad too. The defeat in Nirnaeth was awfully saddening after the spurt of hope when Turgon came unexpected.

_Auta i lome_ - but it was not so.


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## YayGollum

I had to go with Other. If there wasn't an Other, I would have gone with that bit about the Dwarves and elves fighting over the Nauglamir. Mablung, one of the few upstanding citizens that I'm able to admire, died because of that. And, also, a bunch of Dwarves. The most upsetting thing wasn't on the poll, though. I don't know why. 

It is ---> The murder of Mim. Mim was cool. Just a little guy, never did anything evil to anybody. Got kicked out of his home for nonconformity. Got kicked out of some unfinished caves by some arrogant elves. Found the superly cool Amon Rudh but had a bunch of human bandits force their way in. It took a while, but he got past his righteous fury of having his home invaded and his livelihood constantly jeopardized, and he started getting friendly towards Turin elfbane. But then, Beleg showed up. Mim was understandably displeased at the sight of some elf. He was forced to deal with that thing lazing about on his furniture, but he continued to gather food for too many mouths. In the same situation as when the bandits caught him, some Orcs forced him to reveal his home again. With his secret out to apparently everybody, he triumphantly made it all the way back to Nargothrond, against plenty of odds. Nobody else could withstand the blight left by Glaurung. He was as close to happy as he'd been in far too long to keep an ordinary sentient sane. Then Hurin showed up. I don't mind Hurin, either, which makes it sadder that he murdered Mim for no good reason. Mim was unarmed and attempting to calm the terminally depressed guy down when Hurin gutted him. Not cool. Very sad. Nobody cares. *sniff* Poor Mim.

I predict that Beleg getting killed will win, though. Ugh.


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## Illuin

Hi Nom,

I did think about the multiple choice, but I wanted to make this poll a “gut reaction”; just like yours was. The most disturbing incident for me was _Turin_ accidentally killing _Beleg_. OUCH! That one really got to me; and it still does!


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## Illuin

Hi YayGollum,

Yeah, I have to admit, Mim was dealt a lousy hand . Jealously was indeed his undoing though; he could have chilled out a bit when it came to Turin’s friendship with Beleg. But then again; you know how life goes…the good deeds one does for years (like Mim) are disregarded; but screw up once and!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Turgon

I voted for 'The Ruin of Doriath by the Sons of Feanor' as it seems the most pointless tragedy in a series of pointless acts of tragedy.


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## chrysophalax

I would have to go with Other, since my choice encompasses several upsetting incidents with but one cause...the Birth of Turin.

Absolutely nothing went right for the guy and his family was so well connected that, unfortunately for all those that wished to help him for his father's sake, they took the cuckoo into their midst, so to speak. Thus we have the death of Beleg, the incestuous marriage to Nienor and the untimely death of poor Glaurung, to name but a few of his "accomplishments".


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## redline2200

Although I recognize this event was slightly unimportant when contrasted with some of the other options in the poll, I am going to give the stereotypical response and say that the worst part was the accidental slaying of Beleg Cuthalion by Turin.
Certainly some of the other options were much greater travesties, but I remember the first time I read the Sil I felt like someone had punched me in the gut when I read about Beleg's death. The whole story of Turumbar is kinda like that though...


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## Sagan369

The most upsetting part to me was Turin's act of incest (repeatedly I'm sure). Think that baby would've been all deformed and stuff?


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## Illuin

> from chrysophalax
> _"I would have to go with Other, since my choice encompasses several upsetting incidents with but one cause...the Birth of Turin."_


 

Maybe I should put this in the “_What If_” thread; but what if Hurin’s family wasn’t cursed? Do you think Turin would have still been a screw-up? Do you think the chain of unfortunate events that eventually led to his fate would have been much different? Maybe Morgoth said to himself; _“I don’t even have to curse him; he’ll screw things up on his own far better than I ever could_”  . 

What do you think?


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## chrysophalax

Hmmmmmm, dare I open this can of worms, or not? Playing "what if?" is usually a fruitless, though sometimes interesting, pastime that has no real winner.

My first reaction to that question would be to say that if his family were not cursed, of course things would be different. I believe Turin had in him the natural charisma and courage of a born leader. His great downfall, in my opinion, was his self-centeredness and lack of self-control.

This argument also dodges the whole free-will issue, which can always be addressed at a later time. *scuttles away*


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## Illuin

I am with you on that…that is why I didn’t place it in the _“What If”_ thread. I definitely prefer the deeply pondered responses (that may come only once month or so), over the rapid-fire one-liners that I have observed in some of the _“What If”_ threads (even if they are enjoyable in their own way). 

That being said, prior to the _Glaurung_ encounters, I really don’t see things being any different in Turin‘s life leading up to that. Also (just a passing thought here); many fans, even the die-hard fans tend to dislike this tale, and go on and on about how depressing it is. I think the level of depth regarding Tolkien’s understanding of human nature was unparalleled in this story. The mentality of Turin reminded me many times (though not on an epic scale) of my own stubbornness and pride; leading me to shoot myself in the foot for the sake of; well……who knows……maybe making my life far more difficult than it needs to be. Yeah, it’s a tragedy beyond words, but it certainly made me realize the insight of my favorite author regarding the everyday shortcomings of humanity. It's indeed a favorite of mine, and without it, I’m not sure my passion would be a passion at all. Sometimes it just takes that “_icing on the cake_” when it comes to a _fan_ being promoted to _fanatic ._


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## Illuin

PS - Renaissance Fair approaching. I am getting another Dragon from the "_Dragon Lady_". Any suggestions? 

I have a massive apple tree in the back yard; so I’m considering *"Ladon"*; the guardian of the golden apple tree. What would you suggest? .


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## baragund

I picked the war between the Dwarves and Doriath but, to me, this tragedy plus the sack of Doriath by the sons of Feanor and the last kinslayings after the War of Wrath showed a level of senselessness and futility that was at least several notches above the other tragedies.


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## chrysophalax

Ah, lucky Illuin!

Well, assuming you've already used all the Tolkien names for dragons, Fafnir would be my next choice. I haven't thought about Ladon in years! He seems a great choice, since you have an apple tree...but does it bear golden apples?


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## Illuin

Well, I must say that they at least “taste” like golden apples; and in all honesty, they are sick! There are so many apples on this damn thing that many go to waste. Diane however makes at least ten gallons of the most unbelievable applesauce you can imagine. Quite a recipe, and the neighbors are very happy. Does that qualify as “Golden”?


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## Illuin

> from baragund
> _"I picked the war between the Dwarves and Doriath but, to me, this tragedy plus the sack of Doriath by the sons of Feanor and the last kinslayings after the War of Wrath showed a level of senselessness and futility that was at least several notches above the other tragedies."_


 
Yeah, that one was indeed a sore spot for me as well. I don’t wish to debate with the “_Feanor fans_”, but that guy in reality was accountable and responsible for every single tragedy (_whether directly or indirectly_) that transpired in the First Age. Why he is regarded by some as the “_Greatest of the Elves”_ will forever be a mystery to me.


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## Gothmog

Illuin said:


> Yeah, that one was indeed a sore spot for me as well. I don’t wish to debate with the “_Feanor fans_”, but that guy in reality was accountable and responsible for every single tragedy (_whether directly or indirectly_) that transpired in the First Age. Why he is regarded by some as the “_Greatest of the Elves”_ will forever be a mystery to me.



Feanor was in his beginning, the "greatest" of the elves in all things in the same way that Melkor was in His beginning the "greatest" of the Ainur. Both could have done wonderful works but Melkor fell from this position when he decided to go against the rest of the Ainur and became "evil". One of his acts that caused much grief was 'the marring of Feanor' which caused the elf to fall from his position of greatness and become one of the great banes of the First-Age. What he achieved before his fall is still much admired by many and is the reason that Feanor is concidered the "Greatest of the Elves" (he was even the greatest in how far he fell  )


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## Bucky

Nothing 'upsets' me - it's a story!

But I voted 'other' because it's the oath of Feanor - everything flows from there.

BTW - just dawned on me....

What about the slaying of the 2 Trees?


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## Inderjit S

What about the death of Feanor? Or the Battle of Unnumbered Tears? Jeez. The sight of all those Noldor dieing, brings tears to my eyes even now. And who on earth would give half a damn about the Teleri, or the Sindar, or that spurious phillistine, Thingol? 



> Yeah, that one was indeed a sore spot for me as well. I don’t wish to debate with the “Feanor fans”, but that guy in reality was accountable and responsible for every single tragedy (whether directly or indirectly) that transpired in the First Age. Why he is regarded by some as the “Greatest of the Elves” will forever be a mystery to me.



Bleh. For all of his many faults, Feanor is problably the most interesting character Tolkien created. You must remember that he was the only Elf in Aman whose mother had died, which would have affected his development. I mean, if it wasn't for Feanor, we would be stuck with tepid and rather banal tales about the Elves dancing around Manwe singing sonorous soporifics. Feanor merely ignited the fire which was burning in the Noldor-the fire for disovery and danger, Tolkien states that pretty explicitily-why else do you think Melkor chose the Noldor as his apprentices? Because he recognised the unrest and arrogance which existed in all of their hearts. Without Feanor, men would never have been raised to their original, 'higher' level, yes his actions were unintended, and yes his actions were evil, but Feanor is by far the most important character in Tolkien's mythology, the Valar aside. And he is the most powerful non-Valar (he was problably as 'powerful' as some Maia) in Tolkien's legendarium, his cultural and technological achievement were unmatched-Feanor was in spirit the most powerful of all Eru's children, but like Melkor, the old Actonian platitude remerges-absolute power, corrupts absolutely. In any case, I think that Tolkien hints that after the great End-of-the-world, Feanor will 'redeem' himself'-how unoriginal!  Maybe he is just looking for a way out of Mandos.


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## Illuin

> by Inderjit S
> _I mean, if it wasn't for Feanor, we would be stuck with tepid and rather banal tales about the Elves dancing around Manwe singing sonorous soporifics._


 
Yes, this very concept has been discussed as of late - over here.....

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?t=19013&page=3


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## Eledhwen

The poll results are interesting; they show a spread across the book, with no one event gathering a significant number of votes over the others.

I voted Hurin's capture, because it was such a lonely, solitary torture, watching his family destroy themselves. Many of the other incidents had passion, valour and comradeship; but the sheer length of the lonely suffering of Hurin was well upsetting.


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## Sauron

The treachery of the Easterners Ulfang and Uldor. Had it not been for them, the Fifth Battle (othewise known as the Nirnaeth Arnoediad) would have been another great victory for the Eldar and the Edain -the greatest, in fact.


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## Ingwë

I voted _Maeglin's treachery_ to me it is the saddest of the above. I could also go for the Fifth Battle where all brave warriors were slain


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## Illuin

> by Ingwë
> _I voted Maeglin's treachery to me it is the saddest of the above. I could also go for the Fifth Battle where all brave warriors were slain _


 
Yeah, but as far as Maeglin, you knew that was coming. My choice changes all of the time. Recently, it is the death of Huan (being that I’m involved in animal rescue and all). He was under the “Doom” only because he was being loyal to his master. And if it were not for the fact that he was doomed (unfairly, I believe) along with the Noldor; Carcharoth would have been puppy chow. After Sauron reneged regarding his repentance/judgment, and went into hiding following his mentor’s defeat; I think Huan would have been assigned the task of sniffing out and fetching the wuss; either "_r__etrieving"_ him for judgment; or violently mauling the coward to death (albeit, only physically) .


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## Prince of Cats

I think Feanor not giving up the Silmarils (not that it mattered, they were already stolen) for Yavannah to remake the trees was almost or as upsetting as the other moments (like when the two sons of Feanor tried stealing Luthien). OK maybe those two times are a little insignificant in the long run but they got me upset


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## Burzum

I was actually most upset by Sauron's defeat at the fangs of Huan. Sure, Sauron isn't renowned as a warrior, but he gets beaten by a dog and begs for mercy of an Elf-maiden? Damn...

Then there is Ar-Pharazon's defeat, conducted by Eru himself. I sincerely hope that the hosts of Numenor would have devastated Valinor; and it seems like Ar-Pharazon could have dealt at least a noticeable damage, had Eru not intervened. 

For a more "normal" choice, I'd go with the death of Aredhel. She is my favourite female character in the whole mythology, due to the rather free, individualistic spirit she seems to possess, and yet she dies without doing _anything_, except for having a child that later does something.


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## Aglarband

The Kin Slaying was easily what upset me the most when I read the books. I reread that section a few times to make sure i was getting it all right. Having already read the Hobbit and LotR it was hard to swallow that the elves were cable of such atrocities.


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## ltnjmy

I voted for the death of Beleg by the person he most loved- Turin - as the most upsetting incident - - but there were many others. I don't know - there were so many tragedies - almost epic in scope - that make me love the Simarillion more than any of Professor Tolkien's masterpieces.

When Nienor finally found out about her relationship with Turin and bid him farewell as "twice beloved" - I cried when I first read that.

The death of Finrod Felagund inside the depths of his own tower defending Beren was also quite intense for me and when the servants of Caranthir, Curunir and Celegorm abandoned the sons of Dior in the wilderness and they could not be located - I thought that was very, very sad...


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## Ingwë

Illuin said:


> Yeah, but as far as Maeglin, you knew that was coming


Well, the fact that one knew he was going to do it doesn't make it it less cruel. 
Looking at the poll again, I now find several other incidents equally grievous: _ Thingol’s challenge to Beren, if he were to have Luthien’s hand in marriage, The accidental slaying of Beleg Cuthalion by Turin and The Kinslaying at Alqualonde _


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## Tyelkormo

Prince of Cats said:


> I think Feanor not giving up the Silmarils (not that it mattered, they were already stolen) for Yavannah to remake the trees was almost or as upsetting as the other moments (like when the two sons of Feanor tried stealing Luthien). OK maybe those two times are a little insignificant in the long run but they got me upset



Actually, I don't think this was insignificant at all - had Feanor waived his right to the Silmarils, it would have fallen upon the Valar to catch the thief. Now it's not that easy, of course, because there would have been the added issue of vengeance for Finwe's death, but with a little bit of talking to Namo, that could have been solved, I'd say ("I gave you the stones, now give me my dad"  ) 

But in the end, Feanor had invested too much of his spirit into his creations to let go and I think this is one of Tolkien's core theme, to be willing to sacrifice something "so that it can be saved for others". Feanor could not do it, Olwe could not do it, Thingol could not do it, and neither his heirs. Turgon could not do it, and so he went down with his city. In the end, not even Sauron could do it, having invested so much of himself into his creation that its destruction was his demise. 

And for all those who lambast Feanor and his sons it should be noted that Maglor was the only one who had ever sought a Silmaril for himself (as opposed to Beren, who sought it for someone else) and then threw it away. Yes, it did hurt him, but he could have chosen the fate of Maedhros - he didn't, he threw it away.

"But love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart" This warning from Ulmo (in my perception the most sensible of the Valar) to Turgon could have been given to many others, but all too likely, much like Turgon, they would have ignored it when the time comes.


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## chrysophalax

Tyelkormo said:


> Now it's not that easy, of course, because there would have been the added issue of vengeance for Finwe's death, but with a little bit of talking to Namo, that could have been solved, I'd say ("I gave you the stones, now give me my dad"  )




I think that's the first time I've heard that particular bargain put forth. Something original, yay! I'd love to be a fly on the wall for those negotiations!


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## Elthir

Tyelkormo said:


> (...) And for all those who lambast Feanor and his sons it should be noted that Maglor was the only one who had ever sought a Silmaril for himself (as opposed to Beren, who sought it for someone else) and then threw it away. Yes, it did hurt him, but he could have chosen the fate of Maedhros - he didn't, he threw it away.


 
You make some good points above, but I would just add here that Tolkien himself doesn't seem so sure about the fate of Maglor. For the published _Silmarillion_ Christopher Tolkien took up the conception as it was worded in the late 1930s, but there is other evidence that Maglor cast himself into the Sea. 

Specifically letter 131 to Milton Waldman (probably late 1951), and a later version of a section of _The Lay of Leithian_ seems to echo the idea in this letter (the form of the name in the Lay here is _Maelor_).


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## Alcuin

Galin said:


> ...there is ... evidence that Maglor cast himself into the Sea.


Maglor wandering the seashore given leave of his sensibility, mourning the death of the guards and his blasphemous Oath until the tsunami of the ruin of Númenor swallows him up is more attractive to me.


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## Mimzy

I'm gonna say the ruin of Doriath. Sure, the events at Alqualonde and the treason of Gondolin were horrible, but the Dwarves and Feanorians ended up killing women and children and basically ruining the beautiful things Melian and Thingol made. It's just so disgusting.


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## Sulimo

I choose other, because I believe that the root of the problem is the issue. Its gotta be when Melkor mars the music of the Ainur. At this point this rebellion allows all these upsetting events to take place. Otherwise I cannot quantify which tragic story effects me most. They all move me in various ways, but the open rebellion of Melkor at such a crucial moment to me is most distressing.


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## Bard the Bowman

I know that other tragedies did a lot more damage to the forces of Good, but I was distraught to read of Finrod's death. The first time I read the Silmarillion, I had to put the book down. Finrod was so noble and strong and brave, and the fact that he died for a promise which he made; one he could have easily refused. And he died defending Beren (WTF? Beren you weakling). Beren was the hope, so his death kept that hope alive.


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## Mouth_Of_Sauron

Prince of Cats said:


> I think Feanor not giving up the Silmarils (not that it mattered, they were already stolen) for Yavannah to remake the trees was almost or as upsetting as the other moments (like when the two sons of Feanor tried stealing Luthien). OK maybe those two times are a little insignificant in the long run but they got me upset



likewise. the sorrow of Yavannah is always a tough part of the book to get through. for me, anyways


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## Andreth

To me, the most upsetting incident in the Silmarillion has always been the tale of the Children of Hurin as a whole: the first time I read about it, in the book of lost tales, I decided I would never ever read it again, so sad and upsetting it was. Luckily, I broke my vow  but to me, Hurin's captivity and all that befell upon his family has always been of special meaning.


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## Maiden_of Harad

The poll covered about every major tragedy in the book! Still, I voted for the Fall of Gondolin. So much beauty was destroyed all because of that evil elf...
Hurin was given a hard fate, too. And the kinslaying was ghastly. 
I wonder I could write tragic tales like that. And I wonder what inspired Tolkien as he wrote such stories.


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## Turgon of Gondolin

For me the two most upsetting events in _The Silmarillion_ were what happened to Húrin and the entire fall of Doriath.

It wasn't Húrin's capture, per se, it was how Morgoth abused him and finally, setting him free, twisted everything he saw, heard, and knew, until ultimately the truth was revealed and he was broken. This was Morgoth's cruelty highlighted in perfect form, with no other motivations or reasons wrapped around it—cruelty for cruelty's sake.

As for the fall of Doriath, the death of Thingol and the departure of Melian, leading to the fighting between the Dwarves of Nogrod and the Elves of Doriath, followed by the deaths of Beren and Lúthien, which opened the doors for the sons of Fëanor to invade and commit fresh murders … all of this together is one of the most horrible culminations of events, for all of it was caused by greed for a worldly object.

If we change "upsetting" to "tragic", though, I think it would have to be Fëanor's pride in the Silmarils which led to him denying them to the Valar, which led in turn to everything else—that's the greatest tragedy of all, I think, for in this we see the marring of Fëanor who was—like him or not—something special and unique in the history of Arda. That said, I believe this was a *necessary* tragedy, for without it all the events that unfolded after may not have been possible. We can't know, any more than any of the Valar, what was in Eru's heart for his Children. It may have been that Fëanor played one of the most important roles in the unfolding of Eru's third theme.


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## Mouth_Of_Sauron

YayGollum said:


> I had to go with Other. If there wasn't an Other, I would have gone with that bit about the Dwarves and elves fighting over the Nauglamir. Mablung, one of the few upstanding citizens that I'm able to admire, died because of that. And, also, a bunch of Dwarves. The most upsetting thing wasn't on the poll, though. I don't know why.
> 
> It is ---> The murder of Mim. Mim was cool. Just a little guy, never did anything evil to anybody. Got kicked out of his home for nonconformity. Got kicked out of some unfinished caves by some arrogant elves. Found the superly cool Amon Rudh but had a bunch of human bandits force their way in. It took a while, but he got past his righteous fury of having his home invaded and his livelihood constantly jeopardized, and he started getting friendly towards Turin elfbane. But then, Beleg showed up. Mim was understandably displeased at the sight of some elf. He was forced to deal with that thing lazing about on his furniture, but he continued to gather food for too many mouths. In the same situation as when the bandits caught him, some Orcs forced him to reveal his home again. With his secret out to apparently everybody, he triumphantly made it all the way back to Nargothrond, against plenty of odds. Nobody else could withstand the blight left by Glaurung. He was as close to happy as he'd been in far too long to keep an ordinary sentient sane. Then Hurin showed up. I don't mind Hurin, either, which makes it sadder that he murdered Mim for no good reason. Mim was unarmed and attempting to calm the terminally depressed guy down when Hurin gutted him. Not cool. Very sad. Nobody cares. *sniff* Poor Mim.
> 
> I predict that Beleg getting killed will win, though. Ugh.


not to mention his son slain by the very people he was attempting to aid! poor mim will always have a place in my heart and one of the oft-overlooked characters in the quenta. though poor mim's treachery proved ravenous, it was out of complete despair. one can only ask so much from a humble Naugrim who knows nothing of the blight of Men and Elves who is suddenly thrust into matters over his tiny bearded head.


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## King Naugladur

For me, the most upsetting was the murder of Mim by Hurin.
Mim had a right to the hoard of Nargothrond, because his ancestors had delved the halls of Nulukkizdin before the Noldor came from Aman and settled the lands of Beleriand. Since Mim was unarmed, it was a cold-blooded murder by Hurin, which mars his heroic image. However, I try to console myself saying that Hurin was still under the curse of Morgoth, which Melian later took off him.
King Naugladur.


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