# Justified or not?



## Ancalagon (Sep 30, 2001)

Do you believe the Dwarves of Norgrod were justified in the sacking of Menegroth? Did they recieve sufficient payment from King Thingol or should he have given them The Silmaril that he possessed? There are two sides to every story, what side do you take?


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## Gothmog (Sep 30, 2001)

The Dwarves of Norgrod were not Justified in sacking Menegroth as they had no claim on either the Silmaril (to which only the House of Finwe or the Valar could lay any claim.) or the Nauglamir which had been given to Finrod Felagund and therefore no longer belonged to any Dwarf.

It was the attempt by the Dwarves to lay claim to that which was not theirs (The Silmaril), that caused them to be sent out without payment and that was their own fault.

And yes I know that the claim of the Sons of Feanor ended with the Kin-slayings But they did not.


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## Uminya (Oct 1, 2001)

I disagree, Gothmog. Thingol refused to pay the Naugrim AFTER they made Nauglamir. That is like having a contractor build a house, and then you refuse to pay for it, but still want to live in it. Of course they will not let you do this, and aside from that, they will probably file some sort of legal action.

Also note that the Naugrim were attempting to leave when the violence started, so perhaps Thingol is mostly at fault, and the Naugrim were doing the right thing. Either way, I think the Naugrim were justified in keeping what they had taken so much time nd effort to make.

Perhaps someone should have told Thingol, "Payback's a b****"


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## Gothmog (Oct 1, 2001)

The Dwarves in question did not 'make' the Nauglamir! they reworked it to include the Silmaril and then tried to lay claim to the Silmaril using a spurious claim to work that was not theirs in the first place. Any payment due the Dwarves was refused by them in favour of their attempt to steal the Silmaril. I therefore stand by my view!

Also note that the violence started when the Dwarves slew Elu Thingol and stole the reworked Nauglamir. Thingol did not refuse payment until after the Dwarvs tried to claim the Silmaril. The Dwarves were then killed whilst attempting to escape with the stolen necklace. Even the Dwarves of Belegost did not agree that they were right to attack Menegroth.


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## Macarion (Oct 1, 2001)

They were not justified, but if they hadn't, we wouldn't have seen the return of Beren and Lúthien into the story. One of my favorite parts!

--Macarion


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## Dengen-Goroth (Oct 1, 2001)

As i always say, Blast those Dwarves. they reforged it in a way. They only added the Silmaril, and it's beauty, made by fair hands (actually could Feanor's hands be considered fair) they were so enthralled that they killed Thingol, and brought the fall of much. They were not justified at all!


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## Thorin (Oct 1, 2001)

Hey 
Hey, we are a haughty and thick-headed greedy folk...what can 
I say, it is in our nature...blame Aule.

I guess that whole incident might be why Celeborn was so stern with Gimli's coming to Lorien, being of the kin of Thingol and all. Grudges die hard.


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## Gothmog (Oct 1, 2001)

But Dwarves Die Harder


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## Ancalagon (Feb 3, 2002)

Seems to be a mixed response over this.


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## Eldanor (Feb 3, 2002)

behind all this is the Curse of Mandos - the Silmarils are cursed, remember?


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## Brent (Feb 11, 2002)

So in a way the Silmarils are a bit like the RING ?
They awaken a lust to possess them. Though they are cursed of course.
I don't think they are to blame, I think they are trapped in the Curse of Mandos just like Thingol is when he sets a Silmaril for Luthien's bride price - despite the warnings of his wife.


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## Beleg Strongbow (Feb 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Brent _
> *So in a way the Silmarils are a bit like the RING ?
> They awaken a lust to possess them. Though they are cursed of course.
> I don't think they are to blame, I think they are trapped in the Curse of Mandos just like Thingol is when he sets a Silmaril for Luthien's bride price - despite the warnings of his wife. *





I beleive the dwarfs had no right to kill the elves ruthelessly and cold blooded the way they did. But if they didn't and doriath continued would the valar come and help in the war? Probably not then doriath after a while would have fallen anyway so it doesn't really matter.


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## Ecthelion. (Feb 26, 2002)

There's something I'd like to point out. No, the dwarves were not justified in their attack, but Thingol wasn't exactly innocent either. Both sides had their good reason to be upset with the other, but those very reasons were corrupted by greed. That all goes back to the making of the dang blasted silmarils. Feanor made something so beautiful that anyone but the valar would be affected by. Therein lies the problem, folks.


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## Beleg Strongbow (Feb 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Eldanor _
> *behind all this is the Curse of Mandos - the Silmarils are cursed, remember? *




that is right!!!!!!!!!!


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## Lord Melkor (Feb 26, 2002)

> Feanor made something so beautiful that anyone but the valar would be affected by. Therein lies the problem, folks.



Some Valarc were affected!


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## Ståle (Feb 26, 2002)

Melkor is no longer counted amongst the Valar =Þ

The Dwarves made the Nauglamir in the first place though, they did not only reforge it.


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## Gothmog (Feb 26, 2002)

It was the forefathers of the thieving Dwarves in question who Made the Nauglamir. These only altered it to include the Silmaril.


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## Camille (Feb 26, 2002)

I thinks taht both were guilty.. dwarves and thingolm, remember that thingol had been obssesed with the silmaril? and of course the dwarves had lust for it!!.
But at the book of lost tales the storie is a little bit different, and in that thingol really looks like a bad guy!! he practically had the dwarves as prisioners, and delay thier payment.


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## Beleg Strongbow (Feb 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Camille _
> *I thinks taht both were guilty.. dwarves and thingolm, remember that thingol had been obssesed with the silmaril? and of course the dwarves had lust for it!!.
> But at the book of lost tales the storie is a little bit different, and in that thingol really looks like a bad guy!! he practically had the dwarves as prisioners, and delay thier payment. *





Not true Thingol payed them but they wanted more and took the silmaril for themselves. They could have left read the passage again.


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## Tyaronumen (Feb 26, 2002)

While Thingol was greedy and foolish to have disregarded the wisdom of Melian so seemingly lightly, it is not Thingol who came as a guest and left a murderer. This distinction clearly belongs to the dwarves, who aside from Thingols harsh words, have no clear or legitimate grievance.


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## Confusticated (Dec 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ancalagon _
> *Do you believe the Dwarves of Norgrod were justified in the sacking of Menegroth? Did they recieve sufficient payment from King Thingol or should he have given them The Silmaril that he possessed? There are two sides to every story, what side do you take? *


I think they got sufficient payment...some of 'em were killed! 

The dwarves had no right to claim the necklace or the silmaril.

As for being justified in the attack...depends.
In truth they were not but they did not know this.
Those two liars who escaped told everybody that the elves had started it! So from the dwarves point of view they had decent justification.
The liars must have thought that their people would not have taken action if they knew the tuth or else why would they bother lying?


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