# Manwe vs Melkor



## aDaHe (Feb 5, 2003)

when i was reading though the sil (VQ & A) i noticed that when it talks about melkor and mercy he does not understand while manwe was not able to understand that melkor was so completly turned to evil that he could not come back.

two things

1 = the innocence of Manwe

2 = the mercifullessness of Melkor


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## Niniel (Feb 5, 2003)

What is your question exactly? I did notice this too when I read it. I think the idea of Tolkien about good and evil is that mercy is one of the main qualities of good, if not THE main quality. It is very important in his works. For instance Gollum was only saved by the mercy of several people (Bilbo, Frodo, Sam), thus providing Frodo with his only chance to destroy the Ring. Maybe the fact that Manwe as a God is merciful has something to do with Tolkien's Catholic faith, where mercy is also one of the main qualities of God.
So naturally THE quality of bad is the complete lack of mercy; the fact that Melkor does not understand mercy shows that he is really utterly bad and cannot be saved.


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## Gil-Galad (Feb 7, 2003)

What would you say about that question: 
Why Melkor does not have any mercy?


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## Niniel (Feb 8, 2003)

I don't really know. The fact that he has no mercy comes from the fact that he is utterly bad, but why did he go bad in the first place? I assume Ilúvatar did not create him bad on purpose, so there must have happened something that made him go bad. Maybe the fact that he was the mightiest of the Ainur, but did not get a chance to show his might because he had to share it with the others made him so angry that he wanted to dominate everything by his own means. But even then I would say that he must have something good left in him.


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## Gil-Galad (Feb 9, 2003)

It's hard to say whether there is a grain of good in Melkor's soul.But I do have there is.The fact that he was one of the Ainur is enough to say he was good in the very beginning,because no one was born evil.
I think he becomes so bad because he cannot achieve the aims he has in mind.I think so because I have similar character.When I cannot achieve my aim I get angry and try to reach it no matter of it cost.


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## aDaHe (Feb 9, 2003)

when it talks about eru creating the ainur, it says that they are the offspring of his thought. can this also mean that they are the representations of all this "moods" or "characterists".

manwe = purly good and most in kind to the one himself.

melkor = probably had the kind of traits that brought eru to create things of his own and the domination factor was probably passed on to him.


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## Adanedhel (Apr 20, 2012)

I think that Melkor became absolutely evil and unmerciful just because Tolkien needed an absolutely evil and mighty creature/being to create an everlasting fight between Good (Manwe and others) and Evil (Melkor and others), and his entire cosmology. And what would be better than the two mightiest of all the Ainur? Tough contastants, ain't they? I believe that Manwe and Melkor, Good and Evil, are the two sides of the same coin, the human being. Nobody turns absolutely evil (in the reality). I think that Tolkien was based on the ideology of Manichaism.


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## jallan (Apr 20, 2012)

Tolkien’s mythology was based on Christianity, pure and simple, or perhaps better, pure and complicated.

Traditonal Christian legend considers Satan to be the source of all evil. Melkor is just Satan novelized.

As to how Satan became evil, that is a problem in Christian theology. The Fourth Lateran Council (1213) claimed that “the Devil and the other demons were created by God good in their nature but they by themselves have made themselves evil.” St. Thomas of Acquinas considered that Satan’s main sin was pride and trying to be like God.

In short, in Tolkien’s Christian, Roman Catholic universe, that Satan exists and has long been evil is a given that does not need to be explained. Many, although not all, Roman Catholic theologians (and Protestant theologians) make Satan to be the most powerful of the angels before his fall. Tolkien explicitly says only that Melkor was “the mightiest of those Ainur who came into the world,” leaving open the possibility of mightier Ainûr who did not come to Arda.

But to answer any question as to how Satan originally became evil and why God did not do something about it earlier, one can only go to Christian theologians, most of whom will admit ignorance on that head. A few have answers but these answers mostly disagree with one another.


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## Mithrandir-Olor (Apr 20, 2012)

God allows Evil to exist for now so we can have Free-Will.


> Tolkien explicitly says only that Melkor was “the mightiest of those Ainur who came into the world,” leaving open the possibility of mightier Ainûr who did not come to Arda.


That's an interesting possibly, are you certain the term for world used here is Arda and not Ea?


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## Linherdir (Apr 22, 2012)

Hello everybody I'm new here. I hope I'll have good time discussing with other Tolkien fans.

And now lets get to the point. 



jallan said:


> Tolkien explicitly says only that Melkor was “the mightiest of those Ainur who came into the world,” leaving open the possibility of mightier Ainûr who did not come to Arda.




It is said in Ainulindale that: "Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Iluvatar beyond the confines of the World. But others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair took the leave of Iluvatar and descented into it" 

Just before this quote is told how Iluvatar created "Eä the world that is". So at least in this case world means Eä. The quote I have given suggest that those Ainur that descented into the world were indeed at least among the greatest. I remember thought that in The Lost Tales Tolkien mentioned that first of the Ainur was "Time" I don't remember his real name thought. :*( I would consider him pretty mighty being and he remained with Iluvatar after all. This might have been a bit off topic since it was from The Lost Tales, but I still mentioned it. ( And I would be happy if someone could come up with his name :*D)

Yours: Linherdir


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## Mithrandir-Olor (Apr 22, 2012)

"Many of the Greatest" does not even necessarily require a Majority, and a Majority could just mean 51-49.


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## Mithrandir-Olor (Sep 8, 2014)

Aluin is the name of the Ainur of time.


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