# Sauron & his boss



## ApplCobbler (Sep 2, 2002)

*Sauron: Not a Big Issue?*

Well I read, and remember vaguely something that Sauron answers to a higher power....

Morgoth or something along those lines. So then, my question is, how come we don't worry about Morgoth coming back and taking over middle earth?


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## Ravenna (Sep 2, 2002)

Sauron was a Maia of Aule who was seduced by Morgoth, and became his most trusted lieutenant. After the War of Wrath and the defeat of Morgoth;


> The Sauron put on his fair hue again and did obeisance to Eonwe, the herald of Manwe, and abjured all his evil deeds.


But because he was told that he had to go and face the judgement of Manwe, he was unwilling to be so humiliated, and therefore;


> When Eonwe departed, he hid himself in Middle Earth; and he fell back into evil, for the bonds that Morgoth had laid upon him were very strong.


He then began acting alone.

As for Morgoth himself, when he had finally been defeated and bound with the chain Angainor, he was 


> But Morgoth himself tha Valar thrust throught the Door of Night beyond the Walls of the World, into the Timeless Void, and a guard is set for ever on those walls


and


> But Manwe put forth Morgoth and shut him beyond the world in the Void that is without; and he can not himself return again into the World, whilst the Lords of the West are still enthroned



So while we could say that Sauron is still doing Morgoth's work for him,by perpetuating the evil, he no longer answered directly to him because as long as the Valar are still around, Morgoth has no way of getting back into the world.


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## Mormegil (Sep 2, 2002)

You can find out the answer to your question by reading the Silmarillion.

Nobody worries about Morgoth coming back because he was banished into the void after the First Age. He cannot physically return to Arda until the end of the world, the Final Battle, in which he will be slain by Turin Turambar.


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## ApplCobbler (Sep 2, 2002)

who/what is manwe?

or should I just go read the silmarllion for the answer?


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## Galdor (Sep 2, 2002)

Reading the Sil. will answer all the questions you have ask. It's a great book.


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## Elu Thingol (Sep 3, 2002)

I was wondering Mormegil how you know Morgoth will be slain by Turin?


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## Mormegil (Sep 3, 2002)

Tolkien wrote that Turin will slay Morgoth in the final battle, you can find these quotes in the 'History of Middle Earth' books.



> Then shall the Last Battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Fionwe, and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, coming from the halls of Mandos; and the black sword of Turin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Hurin and all men be avenged. (HoME V- The Lost Road and other writings, Quenta Silmarillion.



There are other quotes which say the same thing, just using different ways. But you get the idea from this quote.


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## pohuist (Sep 3, 2002)

I understand that Ainur are immortal and could not be slain (until the end of the world, apparently). What then happens to Sauron after th eRing is destroyed? On one hand, he put a lot of himself into that Ring that ceized to be, on another hand he is immortal. What gives?


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## ApplCobbler (Sep 3, 2002)

I thought sauron wasnt immortal.....

he wasnt a Valar...or melkor


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## Lantarion (Sep 4, 2002)

Sauron's spirit is immortal, as all of the Ainur (being the Maiar, Valar and Ainur). But Sauron's physical embodyment was bound to his supposed powers, which in turn were linked to the Ring.
And no, Sauron was not a Vala, like Morgoth/Melkor was; he was a Maia (as was pointed out) of Aulë who was turned to evil by Melkor.
Look, just read the Silmarillion. It's so much more fun than hearing the answers from others, trust me.  Welcome to the forum!!

PS: I really like the idea of a 'Final Battle', it so obviously shows Tolkien's interest in Scandinavian mythology (Ragnarök springs to mind..).


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## pohuist (Sep 4, 2002)

I take it Lan, that you mean that Sauron's physical embodiment perished while his [immortal] spirit carried on. But in my understanding, it was exactly part of his spirit that he put into the Ring. I suppose that when the Ring was destroyed that part of his spirit perished also (because the Ring to me is much more than just a physical embodiment. Sauron was not "whole" without the Ring). Is that not so? Amd even if not how two parts of his spirit manage to reunite. So, my questions still stands.


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## Thorin (Sep 4, 2002)

It was not that he put all his spirit into the ring, but all the power that allowed him to take shape. When the ring was destroyed, his power went with it and his body was destroyed. He remains a powerless spirit however, without any power to take shape again.


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## pohuist (Sep 4, 2002)

Now you got me confused. Wasn't his power to get shape a part of his spirit. And how is his spirit powerless, isn't he the most powerful Maia (with or w/out physical embodiment)


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## ApplCobbler (Sep 4, 2002)

They explain that when his body perishes, his spirit will live on in the shadows with no apparant power...just a terrible memory. 


or something to that affect...


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## Lantarion (Sep 5, 2002)

I suppose that when Sauron "leaked" his own power into the Ring, the power to take physical form went with everything else, so to speak. So when he didn't have the Ring on he couldn't produce a proper physical body, and when the Ring was destroyed he lost that possibility for ever (among other powers).


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## pohuist (Sep 5, 2002)

Thanks, Lan, that makes sense. Except that I am not convinced that he wasn't able to take shape once he lost the Ring or didn't have it on (but before it was destroyed). Still, though, the argument exists, since the spirit is indestructible, once the Ring was melted, the spirit in it got released and theoretically could join with the rest of Sauron's spirit.


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## Gil-Galad (Sep 7, 2002)

ApplCobbler,just read "The Silmarillion" and you'll understand everything which you haven't understood in LOTR.


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## ApplCobbler (Sep 8, 2002)

I'm almost done with the silmarillion now... I'm on the part of Turin Turambar


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## Mormegil (Sep 9, 2002)

The story of Turin Turambar is the best part in the Silmarillion. IMO.
Enjoy it ApplCobbler.
Hopefully when you finish you will understand a lot more about Tolkien's world.


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## Lantarion (Sep 9, 2002)

*GO TÚRIN!!!!*

_Túrin Turambar, turun abartanen_!!!
Túrin is the best character in the Silmarillion, IMHO; and not only because he is based almost word-for-word on a Finnish hero in the _Kalevala_..


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## ApplCobbler (Sep 9, 2002)

so, how come the shards of gurthang werent reforged? if so wouldnt it have the power to destroy sauron as well as morgoth(considering morgoth is much more powerful then sauron)?


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