# What do you make of this quote



## Talimon (Sep 26, 2002)

Since the first time I read the book this quote has stuck out for me, though I've never been able to put together what Tolkien is saying here. It deffinitely sounds to me like Tolkien is talking about the choices of humanity as a whole, and I think it goes beyond the book:



> 'And doubtless the good stone-work is the older and was wrought in the first building,' said Gimili. 'It is ever so with the things that Men begin: there is a frost in Spring, or a blight in Summer, and they fail of their promise.'
> 
> 'Yet seldom do they fail of their seed,' said Legolas. 'And that will lie in the dust and rot to spring up again in times and places unlooked-for. The deeds of Men will outlast us, Gimili.'
> 
> ...



I think the fact that Tolkien left Legolas unsure of Gimili's guess tells me that Tolkien thought humanity had some sort of choice; thier destiny wasn't governed by fate. His message might have been a more personal one as well. He may have just reffered to the choice each individual has in achieveing thier dreams. But it sounds as if he is talking about "the deeds of Men" in a greater sense.


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## Thorin (Sep 26, 2002)

I think Tolkien was just showing how the rest of the inhabitants view men and incorporates that with the rest of LoTR where men will play a great deal....Contrast and foreshadowing for the reader....



> 'Yet seldom do they fail of their seed,' said Legolas. 'And that will lie in the dust and rot to spring up again in times and places unlooked-for. The deeds of Men will outlast us, Gimili.'



I think that this was foreshadowing how Aragorn would come and prove the words of Legolas right. Despite Gimli's observations about how the things of men have failed and disappointed, Legolas points out that in time of need, the deeds of men can spring up...Aragorn definitely proved this. And because of Aragorn, the deeds of men indeed did outlast them all. A great literary device used by the master, JRR.


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## gate7ole (Sep 26, 2002)

Throughout Lotr, Tolkien is giving humans a second chance. They have failed many times at the past but still he continues to believe in them. It shows that he was a great humanist and that describing the elves, he did nothing more than showing how humans were supposed to be. Flawed, probably proud, but of great dignity.


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## Confusticated (Sep 26, 2002)

I didn't get the impression that Legolas was speaking of Aragorn in the war of the ring. I got the impression that he was speaking with Elvish wisdom about the entire span of humanity in Middle-earth.


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## Talimon (Sep 26, 2002)

> I didn't get the impression that Legolas was speaking of Aragorn in the war of the ring. I got the impression that he was speaking with Elvish wisdom about the entire span of humanity in Middle-earth.



Me too. In fact I saw it as a message regarding all of humanity in general, Middle-earth and otherwise. Go find it in the book (it's in the chapter 'The Last Debate' in Return of the King). The way that it ends that scene between Legolas and Gimili gives me the impression that Tolkien wanted it to carry more weight then what it would naturally carry were it in the context of some other greater discussion.


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## Confusticated (Sep 26, 2002)

Are you refering to them being lead to the Houses of Healing where they met up with the Hobbits in the garden? There they walked, talked, and rejoiced for a brief while....?


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## Talimon (Sep 26, 2002)

Yes, it's where Gimili remarks about the stone-work and Legolas about the lack of trees. Second page of 'The Last Debate' in my edition.


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## Lantarion (Sep 27, 2002)

I think what Legolas might be saying is that Men, unlike Elves, are not pure of spirit and mind, and suffer extreme weariness, pain and grief throughout their lives; and yet they fight on, through all the misery and grief, to achieve greater things and to gain a greater understanding of the world through advancement through the Ages.. Elves are destined to live forever, and to have literally all the time in the world to explore and investigate the wonders of the world around them. But I think that the Elves lack what Men have unconsciously gained: humility. They acknowledge their existence and endless life as a gift, certainly; but they do not understand the gravity that this gift has on their lives when compared with that of Men. And how could they? To have this knowledge they would have to first experience life as a Man, and then live their own life to the fullest, despite its endlessness. Mens' lives are brief and miserable, but through it they manage to find great things, beautiful things, wonderful things; and they are able to cherish it. Elves can never truly cherish what they experience, because they know that they will be around tomorrow to see them again, and to rejoice at the sight of them. A Man sees these things, and loves them, but knows subconsciously that he will one day be wrenched away from this mortal coil, away from both all the bliss and all the misery: but what is life without grief? Paradise? Heaven? What good is this to Men, if they cannot evolve further, and achieve greater things. Suerficially this might seem to be greed and pride; and perhaps it is. But deep down (and not always so deep) they are fighting for the only thing which they know to be true and noble.
Whew, thanks for letting me rant.


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## Talimon (Sep 27, 2002)

That's very insightful Lantarion. I just want to add that in my opinion this stretches out beyond Middle-earth. I feel that Tolkien was talking about our world as much, if not more, then Middle-earth itself. Whenever there is some message regarding the "world of Men" I think Tolkien is telling us more then meets the eye.


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## kohaku (Sep 27, 2002)

I take the passage as follows:
what gimli says indicates that man's endeavors often begin successful but eventually fail. legolas replies by saying they are able regain those past successes... a second chance, you could say. this may be referring specifically to the greatness of the old kings, the greatness that was lost with isildur but is brought back by aragorn.
this idea could be related to the real world... where one person fails, another may succeed.


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## Lhunithiliel (Sep 28, 2002)

> The deeds of Men will outlast us, Gimili.'


And it did happen! 

No more elves or/and dwarves, no more magic, no more fairy tales... 

But though sad to some extent, there goes the Man, the mortal child of Illuvatar, whose destiny was unknown even to the immortals and the Gods!
There we have reached the far ends of the "Shadowed sees" and "looked beyond the Gates of the world" into the "Void". And we have started building ships to follow Earendil in his journey among the stars or to find the "straight road" to the Blessed Realm, and these ships are far better than those that the immortals once made us stare at with awe and a mixture of respect and fear. For now we can go ourselves into the Void and seek Illuvatar and ask him about our fate that he only will know as being our creator. 
WE have outlasted the immortals!  
Now we are the Masters! 
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If Tolkien was able to invent devices like the Palantiri, the ships of the Elves, Earendil's ship, to foresee gene-engineering and a lot more, than I think this quote is just a small demonstration of his thoughts on the past>present>future - aspect of Men's development.


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## Lady_of_Gondor (Sep 28, 2002)

I think that the race of Men in tLotR is often times underestimated, especially by my friends who have read the books. But I have always appreciated them and what they can and have done. This quote, IMO, is just a way of showing that men are just as important despite the fact that they are mortal. It shows that they are strong and valiant and brave. It is also foreshadowing that men will become the dominanat race. I believe that was Tolkiens primary concern when he wrote the quote.


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## Confusticated (Oct 2, 2010)

Maybe it was a way of saying that we will never stop warring with eachother. In times of peace some men will grow bored and they'll need a little excitement of conflict to remind them they are alive. I don't know, that or greed.

I think we see this with the Numenoreans... no matter what they had they wanted more - but not every man, not those of faith.


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