# Turgon



## Kahmûl (Oct 10, 2003)

Would Turgon have been better off staying in Vinyamar?


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 10, 2003)

I don't think so.I don't think that Vinyamar was the right place for Turgon to stay.


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## Confusticated (Oct 10, 2003)

Well I guess there is a chance he personally would have survived had he done so, but it seems unlikely. Had he stayed in Nevrast, his people would have been involved in the Dagor Bragollach, I imagine some going up to to defend Hithlum and others going to hold the pass of Sirion and aid Dorthonion. We do not know many details of the Bragollach... such as how much time went by between the various attacks, so it may be hard to say exactly what the elves of Nervast would have done. I think the involvement of Nervast in Bragollach would have made a huge difference in the outcome of that battle. Hithlum was held and Dorthonion and Easterward Marches lost. Fingolfin and Fingon were cut off, unable to reach Dorthonion to aid there. Had Turgon's people been active, the elves of Hithlum may not have been cut off from Dothonion at all, and their aid (or that of Turgon and his people - likely both) might have been enough to have victory at Dorthonion, and perhaps then Maedhros would have ended up with even more aid. It's hard to say... we also don't have numbers. I guess the siege would have still been broken, but there is a chance a lot of Turgon's people would have survived, and especially if they stayed at the pass of Sirion or went up to defend Hithlum versus going to Dorthonion and being wiped out. Now if this stuff had happened, there would probably not have been an oath to Barahir, as Finrod may not have become cut off. But that is beside the point .

Assuming Turgon and enough of his people survived to continue the realm of Nevrast, and assume they chose to do so (they may have gone elsewhere now that the siege had been broken... such as to Nargothrond, Hithlum, or scattered to various realms) then they would have been at the Nirnaeth, and Turgon would have probably fallen there. The only reason Turgon escaped Nirnaeth is that he had that Hidden realm. I do believe he would have fought to the death if not for that.

So, Turgon would probably not have been better off... unless you want to look at it this way: He probably would have felt better dying in Nirnaeth with his brother, than dying knowing his refusal out of pride to ignore the last counsel of Ulmo had been a death trap for his people. But even then, one is assuming a lot. We can't be sure how Turgon would rather have died.


And even if somehow Turgon did get out of Nirnaeth alive, I suspect he might have died by other means... in Nargothrond, for example.


That is in answer to the question you ask in your post. As for the poll question 'Should he have stayed in Vinyamar?', I vote no.
Ulmo counselled him to go to Tumladen, so I believe this was the best course of action. The only way the answer could be 'yes' is if one believes that Ulmo who 'appeared' to work against the Doom, was actually part of what brought about so much ruin for the Noldor, and that while his plan allowed for the voyage of Earendil it was also the cause of much ruin, and the Noldor woud have been more successful without following his counsel.


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## Gothmog (Oct 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kahmul _
> *Would Turgon have been better off staying in Vinyamar? *


 He probably would have been better off. But what would have happened to Middle-earth with out Idril Celebrindal and Earendil?


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## Confusticated (Oct 10, 2003)

> But what would have happened to Middle-earth with out Idril Celebrindal and Earendil?


Some messenger (probably half-elven) with the silmaril would have reached Valinor eventually.


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## Bucky (Oct 24, 2003)

They were all going down so what possible good would staying in the open do?


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## Arvedui (Nov 13, 2005)

There is no reason to suspect that Idril & Tuor would not have met, even if Turgon had stayed in Vinyamar. That is were Ulmo led Tuor first of all, wasn't it?  
But Vinyamar would have been besieged long before Gondolin, if they had stayed there. Moving to Gondolin gave them some breathing-time. And had they listened to Ulmo when he sent Tuor, many more of the Elves of Gondolin would have survived.


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## Ingwë (Nov 28, 2005)

I don't think that Turgon should have stayed in Vinyamar. It wasn't safe. It was easier for Melkor to find him in Vinyamar. Gondolin was Hidden city, noone knew where is it. That's why it was safe. 



> There is no reason to suspect that Idril & Tuor would not have met, even if Turgon had stayed in Vinyamar. That is were Ulmo led Tuor first of all, wasn't it?
> But Vinyamar would have been besieged long before Gondolin, if they had stayed there.


Élhendi, if Vinyamar had been besieged Tour and Idril would have never met. 

Help: how do you type *É*?


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## Arvedui (Dec 3, 2005)

Ingwë said:


> Élhendi, if Vinyamar had been besieged Tour and Idril would have never met.


You smart&¤@$* 



Ingwë said:


> Help: how do you type *É*?


Well, I just press the "AltGr" + "\`´" buttons, then press "E". But it might be different on your keyboard.


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## Haldatyaro (Dec 6, 2005)

He was ordered to leave by Ulmo. You going to argue with Ulmo? One enemy Vala is enough, I should think...  

Turgon's defeat would have certainly come sooner had he stayed. And he may have escaped defeat altogether if it weren't for the treachery of Maeglin.


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## Arvedui (Dec 6, 2005)

He wasn't exactly ordered. In that case, being told the words of Ulmo from Tuor was even more of an order than being persuaded to move to Gondolin.


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## Haldatyaro (Dec 6, 2005)

> for it seemed to each that *he was bidden* to prepare for a day of evil, and to establish a retreat, lest Morgoth should burst from Angband and overthrow the armies of the North.





> And in the next year Ulmo himself appeared to him, *and bade him* go forth again alone into the Vale of Sirion;



"To bid" is to issue a command or an order. It could also mean invite, but I don't think that's the sense of the word in these passages. Other instances of the word are more like a command, such as:


> Then hate overcame Fëanor's fear, and he cursed Melkor and bade him be gone, saying: 'Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!'





> ... and all were bidden to come to his halls upon Taniquetil, there to put aside the griefs that lay between their princes, and forget utterly the lies of their Enemy.





> Thingol therefore sent Mablung after her, with many hardy march-wards, to find her and guard her, and to learn what news they might; but Nienor was bidden to remain behind.



Back to topic: Turgon didn't have much of a choice, unless he risked yet another rebellion against the Valar.


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