# orcs/elves



## e.Blackstar (Jun 3, 2002)

if orcs are mutilated elves,doesn't that mean orcs are immortal?


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## Niniel (Jun 4, 2002)

I suppose so; but in the books you only see them being killed in battle, which can happen to Elves as well. But if they weren't killed, maybe they would live on forever just like Elves.


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## Lantarion (Jun 4, 2002)

No, they are not immortal. Melkor could not duplicate the law of Ilúvatar, which defined Elves as immortal unless killed.


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## Anarchist (Jun 4, 2002)

Pontifex allow me to disagree. Orcs weren't duplicated elves, they were corrupted (with ways I don't know) elves. So I believe that they would be immortal in the way elves were (unless you may say that the corruption Morgoth applied on them changed their immortality). The immortality of orcs could explain their really huge numbers.


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## e.Blackstar (Jun 4, 2002)

Tx i just had to clarify that.
Anarchist,the elves werent exactly corrupted,more like totured and breeded (pretty thought,huh?)


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## Elu Thingol (Jun 5, 2002)

This is the question that I believed caused Tolkien to change his mind about the origin of the orcs. At first I think Tolkien was going to use the elves for the origin but then later changed that origin to men.



> This then, as it may appear, was my father`s final view of the question: Orcs were bred from Men, and if the conception in mind of the Orcs may go far back into the night of Melkor`s thought it was Sauron who during the Ages of Melkor's captivity in Aman brought into being the black armies that were available to his Master when he returned. ( Morgoth`s Ring ; "Myths Transformed" ; Text 5. Written in 1959-60, Christopher Tolkien)



The quote from the Sil about he elves being tortured and breeded is simply the opinion of the elves that were not tricked by Melkor. They do not know for sure what happened to their brethern. I am going with Christopher on this one. So if orcs are indeed bred from men then they are not immortal.


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## Úlairi (Jun 5, 2002)

Mithrandir2003, you are right. 

For those wanting to know the stock of Orcs please look at this thread. All your questions will be answered there.

Here is the link:

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/show...503&perpage=15&highlight=Scholar&pagenumber=5

However, if Orcs were men, then there is a spanner in the works of Tolkien. Orcs appeared before men, so, how could have they been men? Well, the answer to that is simple, Tolkien didn't fix it before he died. Hence, this is the end of the thread.


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## Elu Thingol (Jun 5, 2002)

I just read the thread you posted wow, it took me forever to get through it. Glad we agree on this topic Ulairi, although some would say that men did infact appear before orcs.


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## Úlairi (Jun 6, 2002)

Yeah, I'm a big poster, that's undisputed. I'm sorry if I get mad, I'm just intolerable of ignorance. However, I found a quote today that seems to calm me down about the subject, as it is quite humorous.

Here it is:



> *I prefer my ignorance over another man's knowledge; as I have got much more of it.*
> _Mark Twain_



As for people believing that Men appeared before Orcs, that is wrong, and I disagree with you here. In the context of the Sil, there is no way that Men could have appeared before the Orcs.


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## Lantarion (Jun 6, 2002)

Another (which probably doesn't help) is:


> *I have nothing to declare except my genious*
> _Oscar Wilde_


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## Elu Thingol (Jun 6, 2002)

I didn't say that I believed that men appeared before the orcs Ulairi. I was just refering to an essay I read recently about men appearing before the orcs it was sort of interesting. Also, here are some more quotes to help.



> There is one thing to be said of ignorance-it sure causes a lot of interesting arguments (Wheaton Ill. Daily Journal)





> It's harder to conceal ignorance than to acquire knowledge (Arnold Glasow)





> The reason there's so much ignorance is that those who have it are so eager to share it. (Frank A. Clark)





> Ignorance is like the itch-the less you have of it the better off you are. (Harry Mendelson)





> Everybody is ignorant-only on different subjects (Will Rogers)





> To know one's ignorance is the best part of knowledge. (Lao-tse)





> The Texan bought a 10-gallon hat. Trouble is, he has an 11-gallon head



hope these help you out


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## Úlairi (Jun 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Mithrandir2003 _
> *I didn't say that I believed that men appeared before the orcs Ulairi. I was just refering to an essay I read recently about men appearing before the orcs it was sort of interesting. Also, here are some more quotes to help.
> 
> hope these help you out *



Glad to see that you have succumbed to my far superior intellect!


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## Lantarion (Jun 7, 2002)

Ah, another Taoist! Good quote, M2003, but the 'correct' form would be 'Laozi'.


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## Tyaronumen (Jun 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Pontifex _
> *No, they are not immortal. Melkor could not duplicate the law of Ilúvatar, which defined Elves as immortal unless killed. *



And, I suspect, Melkor could not *change* the law either -- meaning that perverted Orcs would still have the same fate as the Quendi.


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## Tyaronumen (Jun 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Pontifex _
> *Ah, another Taoist! Good quote, M2003, but the 'correct' form would be 'Laozi'.  *



Heheheh... Here in the States, I have seen Lao Zi, Laozi, Lao Tsu, Lao Tzu, Lao Su... 

I suspect the 'correct' form cannot be typed without a Chinese character set.


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## Úlairi (Jun 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Tyaronumen _
> *
> 
> And, I suspect, Melkor could not *change* the law either -- meaning that perverted Orcs would still have the same fate as the Quendi. *



Again people mix the definitions of immortality and invincibility.


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## Elu Thingol (Jun 8, 2002)

> _Posted by Ulairi_
> Glad to see that you have succumbed to my far superior intellect!



Since I am a quote master I believe I can cure your ego Ulairi 



> Egotism is an odd disease. It makes everybody sick but the one who has it. (Auto Dealer News)





> One nice thing about egotists: they don't talk about other people. (Lucille S. Harper)





> An egotist is not a man who thinks too much of himself. He is a man who thinks too little of other people. (J.F. Newton)





> Egotism is an anesthetic that dulls the pain of stupidity. (Frank Leahy)



I didn't really mean the last one Ulairi because you are obviously very intelligent but I thought it was a good quote.

Actually I am not a quote master just a man with a very large quote book


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## Úlairi (Jun 8, 2002)

Your amusing Mithrandir2003. I'd like to extend you a membership to my new guild, the Guild of Quoters. You'd be my second-in-command.


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## Elu Thingol (Jun 9, 2002)

Sure. Sounds fun. Thank you.


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## Lantarion (Jun 10, 2002)

You're right, Tyaronumen, sorry.


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## Úlairi (Jun 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Elu Thingol _
> *Sure. Sounds fun. Thank you. *



Sorry Elu, I meant you, not Mithrandir2003. However, I would like M2003 to join in also, and you too Ponti.


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## Tyaronumen (Jun 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *
> 
> Again people mix the definitions of immortality and invincibility. *



Uhhh -- what are you talking about? I don't even refer to immortality vs. invincibility in my post...?


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## Elu Thingol (Jun 11, 2002)

Sorry Ulairi, I am Mithrandir2003, I just felt my name was unoriginal and I changed it. I still want to be in the guild of quoters though .

And Mithrandir2003 drops his cloak and reveals Elu Thingol Lord of the Sindar


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## e.Blackstar (Jun 14, 2002)

on a completely different note,Morgoth was Melkor,right,not Manwe?i always get them mixed up.


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## Úlairi (Jun 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Elu Thingol _
> *Sorry Ulairi, I am Mithrandir2003, I just felt my name was unoriginal and I changed it. I still want to be in the guild of quoters though .
> 
> And Mithrandir2003 drops his cloak and reveals Elu Thingol Lord of the Sindar *



I was considering four or so names before I logged on:

Ulairi
Iarwain Ben-adar (however, this did not fit)
Glaurung
Elu Thingol

So I'm glad to see the alias of Elu Thingol bestowed on a worthy person. There are a few people on the forum that don't deserve their aliases.


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## Elu Thingol (Jun 15, 2002)

> _Posted by Ulairi_
> So I'm glad to see the alias of Elu Thingol bestowed on a worthy person. There are a few people on the forum that don't deserve their aliases.



I'm flattered


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## Úlairi (Jun 15, 2002)

You know, I just thought to myself how easily I can change my mind about people. I used to think that you were ignorant and a waste of time, however Elu, now I see you as a formidable adversary and a good friend. I do believe that I will add you to my buddy list.


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## Elu Thingol (Jun 15, 2002)

I shall also add you to my list Ulairi. I too consider you a worthy opponent and a good friend.


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