# Don't be surprised that all things have a reason...



## Anamatar IV (May 10, 2004)

This is a collection of my thoughts. It's also the first time I've put the reasons I left TTF down in writing. It also contains the reasons I think TTF has condescended in quality. I don't care if I get warned, banned or whatever, it doesn't matter as I won't be coming back. I just think everyone here at TTF deserves to know what I think is wrong with this place. I'm not gonna sugar coat anything, I'll just tell it like it is. Please don't edit my post. I mean, god knows nothing is stopping you but it's for your own good.

1. It's a website devoted to some friggin' books. I'll never say Tolkien's books weren't good. In fact, I'd say they were great. I finished the Two Towers in just under 4 hours, I was so into it. But given there are so many aspects for discussion, deliberation, and debate put into it, it's still just a book. There's only so much you can bother to say about it. Very few people have such little a life that they can put time into trying to find new discussion ideas. After a while everything that can be discussed gets discussed. Which brings me to my next point.

2. When there is nothing left to talk about the books, people will begin to talk about pure and simple crap. They'll start asking what movies people like and who the most popular poster is and who will have how many posts when. And when that gets boring they'll just make threads where they do nothing but--- they don't even do that! I'm talking about threads like the Java Coffee House. Bars. They're totally useless. I was apalled to see that they thread is still around today. I had so much respect for the staff here at TTF until I saw that. You guys allowed this thread to continue for so long? Who gives a flying **** if it's the only life in the forum, it should not have been here 5 months ago when I left, it should not be here today. On to my next point.

3. The choices the mods make as far as deleting threads is horrible. In some cases you guys are infringing on our freedom of speech and in others you guys are infringing on our rights to an enjoyable environment. I had a humorous thread about what if characters in the Lord of the Rings had physical ailments. People were talking about glasses and braces and broken extremities, things all people get, one people goes and posts something about what THEY have and if someone had it in the books, bam, the thread is gone. Then again, there are 10 threads floating around filled with two people arguing about post counts and who will have a higher one.

4. Jump back to number two. You take away the aspect of the forum that allows threads like that, the forum loses life. Just like when you took away the RPGs. That was the straw that broke the camel's back. The forum is boring without RPGs. They added some more depth to this place. There were more options than just talking about who did what. Not only that, the RPGs fulfilled the community of TTF. We would come together to talk about Tolkien, then go and have some fun writing with eachother. You take away that part of the forum, you take away most of it's essential organs. You just left the heart beating.

5. There is too much moderation. That and The C9 was totally useless. To this day I don't even know why we even bothered doing it. I view it as just one last futile attempt to resurrect the forum. I mean really guys, we're not little kids anymore. Mods shouldn't be acting like parents, babysitters, counsellors. That's what I always viewed them as. "Oh great, Laurie, now you woke mom up!" "Oh great, here come the mods." It's not cool. We can settle things ourselves if you give us a friggin' chance.

6. Everyone who made this forum what it was when I joined left. Ever stop to wonder why? I bet you can figure it out.

7. Taking away the Guild of Politics and Religion absolutely killed the forum. That was the silver bullet. It took away the spice, the zest of the forum. Without it there is no life to this hell-hole whatsoever (unless you consider the Java Coffee House life). When you take away the option for people to disagree with eachother then you're trying to make a utopian society. Go for it, if that's what you want, but there's a utopia in my state. I've been there, and it's not a road you want to go down on.

So there it is. That's what I think. If you delete this thread, I'll find out one way or another and I'll re post it, as many times as I need because it's something you definitely need to hear. I'm not really that sorry if I've offended anyone. Sometimes that's the only way to get through to people. To call them out and make jokes about how fat their moms are.


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## Rangerdave (May 11, 2004)

A response.


Point 1
Of course they are about books. And while it may be that all the questions have been asked, I somehow doubt it. Most assuredly they have not been answered to everyones satisfaction. Besides fictional analysis is still analysis. And exercise is important for the gray matter as well. So who cares if someone has asked the same question before, maybe your answer is be helpful.


Point 2
What is the problem with a lite bit of side banter. Perhaps some members are interested in what others are really like, or enjoy a bit of playful fun to lighten everyone's day. If thats not your style fine, but don't assume to look down your nose at people who are not as _serious_ as you would like them to be.


Point 3
First and foremost, this is a privately owned and funded website. You do not have a right to Freedom of Speech here. As for what the staff chooses to delete, move or otherwise alter; they are not answerable to you or anyother member save only the Webmaster aka DAPence to defend or champion their actions. Certainly mistakes will be made, but that is an constant in life. Anyone who can not handle that little bit of wisdom would do well to seek professional help


Point 4
This point is trivial. I am sorry that you miss the RPG's. I for one don't, but this is strictly a personal opinion. If role playing is the only reason for membership than that member is missing out on the other benefits of membership. Besides, are other venues for this type of gaming. I hope you find one you like.


Point 5
I hate to bust your bubble on this one, but obviously some members are incapable of reaching a peaceful solution without intervention by the staff. The overwhelming majority can, but there are a few who embrace the code of the fanatic. As Winston Churchill once declared, "A fanatic is somebody who can not change his mind and will not change the subject".


Point 6
Yes I sometimes wonder about former "founding" members and why they left. 
Perhaps they tired of listening to sanctimonious self-aggrandizing little cry babies whining about how it was so much better before. Life is change, get used to it. 


Point 7
Political and spriritual discussion is still allowed, it is just no longer compartmentalized. Of couse is some members could discuss faith and government for more than ten minutes with resulting to name-calling and tantrums, the P&R could have been left intact.


So Anamatar IV, if you have found that the forum is to distasteful to continue your membership. Then I say farewell and I wish you success in all your future endeavours. 
But if you expect a weepy "please don't go" response or think that the Webmaster, I or anyother member of the staff plans to change the policies and practices of the Forum for the sole purpose of pleasing you? Don't hold your breath.


Your 
Dave B.


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## David Pence (May 11, 2004)

> Tho' much is taken, much abides; and tho'
> We are not now that strength which in old days
> Moved Earth and heaven; that which we are, we are;
> One equal temper of heroic hearts,
> ...


 While I don't feel TTF has been made weak by the passage of now four years online, we have changed quite a bit. I'm sorry that Anamatar IV seems to have so many problems with TTF. Unfortunately, many of the issues Anamatar IV brought up, have already been dealt with, and for better or worse, we've moved on.

TTF, as well as most of the other Tolkien sites, will never see the level of activity seen during the days of the New Line Cinema film trilogy. Also, as Anamatar IV points out, some members will move on, because they've simply had their fill of all things Middle-earth. That's just the way of things. It's not anyone's 'fault.'

Anyway, I've covered all this before, and don't feel like prattling on about it now. We do have some changes in the works, and will be announced soon.

Sorry to see you go Anamatar IV. Good luck.


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## Uminya (May 11, 2004)

Role-playing is still going strong at MERPG and many people from TTF (as well as many completely new faces) are there, roleplaying to their heart's content. You are, of course, welcome to join there. I don't see why one would not want to, if one likes RPing.


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## Aglarthalion (May 11, 2004)

Anamatar IV said:


> I think TTF has condescended in quality



From Dictionary.com:

_Condescend: "To deal with people in a patronizingly superior manner."_

Interesting to see that that's essentially what you're doing to the forum, in your post.


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## Ithrynluin (May 11, 2004)

Anamatar IV said:


> 1. It's a website devoted to some friggin' books. I'll never say Tolkien's books weren't good. In fact, I'd say they were great. I finished the Two Towers in just under 4 hours, I was so into it. But given there are so many aspects for discussion, deliberation, and debate put into it, it's still just a book. There's only so much you can bother to say about it. Very few people have such little a life that they can put time into trying to find new discussion ideas. After a while everything that can be discussed gets discussed. Which brings me to my next point.


Your 'next point' is actually your _first _point, as you did nothing but insult those who feel there's *not *'only so much you can bother to say' and accuse people who have been spending more time here than yourself of having 'little a life'. That is mighty noble of you.  



Anamatar IV said:


> 2. When there is nothing left to talk about the books, people will begin to talk about pure and simple crap. They'll start asking what movies people like and who the most popular poster is and who will have how many posts when. And when that gets boring they'll just make threads where they do nothing but--- they don't even do that! I'm talking about threads like the Java Coffee House. Bars. They're totally useless. I was apalled to see that they thread is still around today. I had so much respect for the staff here at TTF until I saw that. You guys allowed this thread to continue for so long? Who gives a flying **** if it's the only life in the forum, it should not have been here 5 months ago when I left, it should not be here today. On to my next point.





Anamatar IV said:


> 7. Taking away the Guild of Politics and Religion absolutely killed the forum. That was the silver bullet. It took away the spice, the zest of the forum.


So talking about movies is 'pure and simple crap' but politics and religion is 'the spice, the zest' of a Tolkien forum. Needless to say - no comment. And FYI, the GoP and GoR were gone only for a short while, only to return as part of Stuff and Bother and shortly after that in their own section called 'the Forsaken Inn'.

As for inns, I quite agree with you in that they are pretty useless and serve only as a place for chit chat and therefore take up bandwidth needlessly, when we have perfectly fine means for chatting such as the various messenger programs and even TTF's own chat room.



Anamatar IV said:


> 3. The choices the mods make as far as deleting threads is horrible. In some cases you guys are infringing on our freedom of speech and in others you guys are infringing on our rights to an enjoyable environment. I had a humorous thread about what if characters in the Lord of the Rings had physical ailments. People were talking about glasses and braces and broken extremities, things all people get, one people goes and posts something about what THEY have and if someone had it in the books, bam, the thread is gone. Then again, there are 10 threads floating around filled with two people arguing about post counts and who will have a higher one.


Mods make mistakes, clean and simple. We try to remedy a situation as best we can with our own devices, and consult each other, so as not to repeat any old errors. 'Meaningless' or 'pointless' threads in S&B are mostly deleted after a while. If the thread you refer to was in fact deleted, then that certainly was a mistake. When getting all bitter about this (and you have a right to feel so to a certain extent), you should also keep in mind how many 'correct' decisions moderators make and how much 'positive' work they do behind the curtains. 



Anamatar IV said:


> When you take away the option for people to disagree with eachother then you're trying to make a utopian society.


Get real. The amount of topics people can disagree and argue about is virtually endless. If you meant that topics about politics and religion are those in which people are more likely to bicker and sneer at each other (which is certainly a form of disagreeing), then I'd have to voice my agreement with you. Besides, this point of yours is quite moot - see my response to your points 2 and 7. 



Anamatar IV said:


> 4. Jump back to number two. You take away the aspect of the forum that allows threads like that, the forum loses life. Just like when you took away the RPGs. That was the straw that broke the camel's back. The forum is boring without RPGs. They added some more depth to this place. There were more options than just talking about who did what. Not only that, the RPGs fulfilled the community of TTF. We would come together to talk about Tolkien, then go and have some fun writing with eachother. You take away that part of the forum, you take away most of it's essential organs. You just left the heart beating.


At first, I wasn't too happy with the decision to move RPGs to a whole new site either, but later came to appreciate just how much more space RPGers had over there, since they were confined to three fora here at TTF and frankly, these were too crowded and more difficult to moderate. Besides, registering there is a matter of minutes.



Anamatar IV said:


> 6. Ever stop to wonder why? I bet you can figure it out.


Did you? I bet you can too, if you cool off, and really put your mind to it.

Obviously, I think some of your views are completely mistaken and based on rumours or a false premise. Others are correct and have been taken into consideration a long time ago, or are yet to be taken. Too bad we had to meet again in this unpleasant manner, Anamatar. You've been missed.


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## Confusticated (May 11, 2004)

Recently I have been hearing a lot of this about topics running out. All I can do is shake my head really. If anybody has discussed and found answers to it all, please PM me, I have plenty unanswered threads I have started that I would direct you to and appreciate an answer. 




> We would come together to talk about Tolkien, then go and have some fun writing with eachother.


I agree. I'm not a regular RPer but I have tried a few times... and generally fail due to 1) Am a crappy writer and 2) my being picky about historical accuracies. 

I'd love to RP with people I talk about Middle-earth with, and would have little interest in RPing with folks who do nothing but RP, though one has little choice sometimes. It's not only sad that RPs can not exist at TTF, but to top that off somene once asked at MERPG if there was a place there to just talk about the books and Middle-earth, and was told no. I can't get my mind around how people can just RP and RP and RP without feeling a need to open up regular book discussions to talk about Middle-earth. But that is how it goes. There are some people who are not regular RPers, but who just want to try at it sometimes or who ONLY want to do a story more true to the history (events, chronolgy, geography, culture that are in harmony with Tolkien's ) and such writers are about impossable to find at a place like MERPG, which is strictly RPing.


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## Bethelarien (May 11, 2004)

Ana, I have to say, I completely agree with you. Now, I know I'm not really anyone special on TTF, people probably couldn't care less whether or not I leave. But you have managed to put into words what I could not. I think it's very sad what is happening to TTF. I loved it so much. But....well, it just isn't the same anymore, everything's gone downhill.



> _Originally posted by Webmaster_
> We do have some changes in the works, and will be announced soon.


Unfortunately, I don't see that any changes are going to breath life back into this site. It's simply (and quite unfortunately) too far gone.



> _Originally posted by Ciryaher_
> Role-playing is still going strong at MERPG


I hate to nitpick, but no, it's not. Activity at MERPG is almost as low as it is here. Perhaps if there were not so many restrictions.....

At any rate, I'm right beside you, Anamatar.


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## Ancalagon (May 11, 2004)

Hmm, I've noticed threads like these before in the forum, and the only time I pay them attention is when someone who has genuine concerns offers suggestions, guidance, advice or ideas on how to make improvements in the forum...in this case, Anamatar and Bethelarien have made no attempt to address those issues...and so alas my interest in this thread wanes....


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## Beorn (May 11, 2004)

Anamatar, when you first left, I called you up. I told you I really thought you had an effect on the forum. I felt that you managed to dabble in all parts of the site, whereas most people concentrate on one part (GoT, Books, General Discussion). I wish I could as I used to, but I don't have the time that I used to. I still read (a lot of) TTF. I post a lot less, but I read. However, just because it isn't going as I want it to, doesn't mean I throw leave and throw a fit.

I called you up, and told you I what I thought. Then, I asked why you left. You said to me, you had other things in life. You had to focus on your schoolwork. You were going out with your friends. Yet, now you're back, and you're singing a different song.

So, in some way, you've lied. Additionally, you've made a slew of attacks on TTF, a few of which are somewhat meritted.



Anamatar IV said:


> 1. It's a website devoted to some friggin' books. I'll never say Tolkien's books weren't good. In fact, I'd say they were great. I finished the Two Towers in just under 4 hours, I was so into it. But given there are so many aspects for discussion, deliberation, and debate put into it, it's still just a book. There's only so much you can bother to say about it. Very few people have such little a life that they can put time into trying to find new discussion ideas. After a while everything that can be discussed gets discussed. Which brings me to my next point.


The Hobbit is more than 200 pages. The Lord of the Rings is more than 1000 pages long. The Silmarillion is in the range of 400. Unfinished Tales is in the 300s (IIRC). BOLT I and BOLT II are both around 400. There are hundreds of letters. There's The Adventures of Tom Bombadil. There is Roverandom. And Farmer Giles of Ham. Don't forget the rest of HoMe. Tolkien has over 10000 pages of published work. On every page there exists a symbol, a reference, an extended metaphor. I can come up with a question based on the text of every page. And we've just about 2500 threads in all of the Tolkien related forums here. I say there's plenty to go.



Anamatar IV said:


> 2. When there is nothing left to talk about the books, people will begin to talk about pure and simple crap. They'll start asking what movies people like and who the most popular poster is and who will have how many posts when. And when that gets boring they'll just make threads where they do nothing but--- they don't even do that! I'm talking about threads like the Java Coffee House. Bars. They're totally useless. I was apalled to see that they thread is still around today. I had so much respect for the staff here at TTF until I saw that. You guys allowed this thread to continue for so long? Who gives a flying **** if it's the only life in the forum, it should not have been here 5 months ago when I left, it should not be here today. On to my next point.


Based on my above rebuttal, there's still plenty to talk about. However, it is a lot to ask of people to solely discuss Tolkien. The internet connects millions of people, and humans are social. They'll converse. TTF serves that in a way, but in a minimal way. You're talking about enjoying TTF, yet you suggest taking away the fun people have?



Anamatar IV said:


> 3. The choices the mods make as far as deleting threads is horrible. In some cases you guys are infringing on our freedom of speech and in others you guys are infringing on our rights to an enjoyable environment. I had a humorous thread about what if characters in the Lord of the Rings had physical ailments. People were talking about glasses and braces and broken extremities, things all people get, one people goes and posts something about what THEY have and if someone had it in the books, bam, the thread is gone. Then again, there are 10 threads floating around filled with two people arguing about post counts and who will have a higher one.


 Since I believe I was the one who decided that the thread needed to be dealt with (though I didn't do the dealing), I'll explain why. Say you had half of your arm amputated due to an injury. Would you like people poking fun at characters with handicaps like yours? I should think not. Especially considering that your thread was poking fun at handicaps members of TTF have, and visitors may have, the thread was unfit for TTF. The Tolkien Forum is a respectable place where anyone can go. It's not limited, and we do not allow any derogatory statements to be made towards a certain group.



Anamatar IV said:


> 4. Jump back to number two. You take away the aspect of the forum that allows threads like that, the forum loses life. Just like when you took away the RPGs. That was the straw that broke the camel's back. The forum is boring without RPGs. They added some more depth to this place. There were more options than just talking about who did what. Not only that, the RPGs fulfilled the community of TTF. We would come together to talk about Tolkien, then go and have some fun writing with eachother. You take away that part of the forum, you take away most of it's essential organs. You just left the heart beating.


We didn't take it away. We simply moved it. When something great grows, it's best to move it to its own home. You would not be at http://www.thetolkienforum.com if that decision had not been made in the past. http://www.TheLordOfTheRings.com was the original location for this forum. On August 19th, 2001, it was moved. The forum had grown too large for its cage, and needed its own home. And since then, TTF has spawned its own child, http://www.MiddleEarthRPG.com.



Anamatar IV said:


> 5. There is too much moderation. That and The C9 was totally useless. To this day I don't even know why we even bothered doing it. I view it as just one last futile attempt to resurrect the forum. I mean really guys, we're not little kids anymore. Mods shouldn't be acting like parents, babysitters, counsellors. That's what I always viewed them as. "Oh great, Laurie, now you woke mom up!" "Oh great, here come the mods." It's not cool. We can settle things ourselves if you give us a friggin' chance


The C9 never fulfilled its task to make itself a members organization. We supported it for a year, sent a few small things to it, but in the end, there wasn't enough interest. Additionally, there were no provisions made within it for solving a disagreement. If people want to try it again, the forums still exist. I'll start it up again if there's a large enough call for it.



Anamatar IV said:


> 6. Everyone who made this forum what it was when I joined left. Ever stop to wonder why? I bet you can figure it out.


Please tell.



Anamatar IV said:


> 7. Taking away the Guild of Politics and Religion absolutely killed the forum. That was the silver bullet. It took away the spice, the zest of the forum. Without it there is no life to this hell-hole whatsoever (unless you consider the Java Coffee House life). When you take away the option for people to disagree with eachother then you're trying to make a utopian society. Go for it, if that's what you want, but there's a utopia in my state. I've been there, and it's not a road you want to go down on.


This is The Tolkien Forum. Having a section for politics and religion was something that wasn't part of TTF's purpose. You were saying we shouldn't allow 'chat' threads, yet GoP and GoR were essentially the same thing. Discussions of political and religious issues. The only difference between those and chat is those have a defined objective. We shouldn't allow off-topic threads, yet we should allow politics and religion on a Tolkien forum.



Anamatar IV said:


> So there it is. That's what I think. If you delete this thread, I'll find out one way or another and I'll re post it, as many times as I need because it's something you definitely need to hear. I'm not really that sorry if I've offended anyone. Sometimes that's the only way to get through to people. To call them out and make jokes about how fat their moms are.


I don't understand this. People seem to think that we delete threads that go against us. Ask Hurin Thalion if that's true. Ask Ulairi. We don't delete things that are an affront to us since that would be nothing less than Stalinesque. We cannot pretend our view of the events on TTF are not seen through our own personalized rose coloured glasses. We rely on the input of members, happy and sad, content and disgruntled to guide the course of The Tolkien Forum. Even the wise cannot see all ends.

In closing, the fact still remains that I've been told two different reasons as to why you left. I'd like an answer.

You've come here to scream in our faces, yet you said you were done a long time ago. Yet, you're here. You also have not done anything to remedy the problems you cite.

Remember, everyone wears his own pair of rose coloured glasses. You've got yours on. I've got mine on. Why don't you try mine? I've already tried yours on. In fact, I wore the ones you're wearing now about 5 months after I got here.


Sincerely,
Michael Benza,
Administrator at TheTolkienForum.com


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## Mrs. Maggott (May 11, 2004)

As an original member of C9, I thought it was "defined" to death. I just wanted the 9 members to be a sort of Forum "Dear Abby" to whom members could go (as individuals) if they had a problem and the Council member would do what was possible for that member. If the problem was too large, the rest of the Council could be brought in and eventually - if it became civil war - the Administration and the W.M. However, we spent hours and days trying to set up formal by-laws and a structure with a leader etc. By the time it was all said and done, all of our efforts had been wasted on something that we ourselves in the forum created rather than simply making it into a small selected group of forum members to whom other members could turn if they had a problem! For that, we didn't even need 9 people! 3 would have been fine and those three should have served (that is, been available to help) for a year and then 3 others would take their place! It should have been very "unstructured" - but unfortunately, it wasn't. The result was that the Council was moribund virtually at birth, in my opinion.

As for the traffic dying down now that the films are a thing of the past: well, that's true and I believe that almost everyone knew that such would be the case! Most probably, the Harry Potter websites will also become less active once all 7 books have been released and whatever films have also been completed. It's the nature of things. However, as we know already, Tolkien's works have remained popular (albeit not "raging" popularity until the films) since their release. There is no reason to believe they will not remain popular after the films are a thing of the past. After all, look at Sherlock Holmes! And there aren't any films in the offing either! 

Now, it is also true that many younger more active individuals do not respond well to something that is by and large intellectual in nature. There may not be enough "action" on the forum now for some of our "young bloods" - and that is entirely understandable. They may want to seek out more boisterous activities including things off-line! 

Furthermore, my interest in Tolkien waned from its height in my 20s and early 30s. It was several years before I began to turn again to what I had once so greatly enjoyed. This is also normal. Surely, some of our most ardent members will lose interest perhaps short term, perhaps forever! There is no way of knowing about such things. But there will always be "newbies" who "find" JRRT and therefore I hope there will always be knowledgeable people to help them get the most out of this truly unique body of works. For that reason alone, if for no other, I take my "hat" off to the W.M and the "Mods" for their efforts in maintaining the forum.

God bless!


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## Lantarion (May 11, 2004)

It would be redundant of me to add much to the outstanding replies of RangerDave, Webmaster, ithrynluin, Mrs. Maggott and especially Beorn, as I virtually agree with them all. I also feel very similarly to what Ancalagon stated; the purpose of this thread seems to be to insult and critisize without offering anything positive at all. In other words, you have started a new place to whine about misunderstood, non-understood and/or opinionated negative aspects of TTF. Bravo.
I also think it is sad and cheap of you to call those who frequent and love this forum without social life, and to set yourself up as a standard of the right way to be. We have no need for your overcritical, bitter and insulting monologue. I am surprised to see you stoop so low, one who was once one of the heartiest members of this community. I, as many others, have missed your input, and to see that old enthusiasm turn to such cold pessimism is rather sad. However, good luck in whatever 'real' course you may take in life.

I am also bewildered to see this unrealistic pessimism be displayed by other members; simply because the heydays and rush-hours of TTF are drawing to a close, people seem to be panicking and giving up! As Beorn so well stated, it would require decades upon decades of ceaseless digging and analysing and research to actually exhaust all that there is to know and discuss about Tolkien. I can understand that people's interest in the topics can wane, but to say based on that waning that there is nothing more to talk about is simply foolish. Goodbye, and good luck, Anamatar.


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## Uminya (May 11, 2004)

Bethelarien said:


> I hate to nitpick, but no, it's not. Activity at MERPG is almost as low as it is here. Perhaps if there were not so many restrictions.....



Activity is quite good. We have a small community now, and players get along. Just because you didn't get your way doesn't mean that there are too many restrictions.



Nóm said:


> I'd love to RP with people I talk about Middle-earth with, and would have little interest in RPing with folks who do nothing but RP, though one has little choice sometimes. It's not only sad that RPs can not exist at TTF, but to top that off somene once asked at MERPG if there was a place there to just talk about the books and Middle-earth, and was told no. I can't get my mind around how people can just RP and RP and RP without feeling a need to open up regular book discussions to talk about Middle-earth. But that is how it goes. There are some people who are not regular RPers, but who just want to try at it sometimes or who ONLY want to do a story more true to the history (events, chronolgy, geography, culture that are in harmony with Tolkien's ) and such writers are about impossable to find at a place like MERPG, which is strictly RPing.



I don't see what you're getting at, here. MERPG has RP's that are loosely based on Middle Earth, and some that are apparently so restrictive that people like Bethelarien can't handle it. It goes to show that not everyone can be pleased.

But, I do disagree. The Chronicles in particular are basically an extension of Tolkien's works. We have scraped together as much information as possible (there isn't a lot) and have continued the tale at Elessar's death. We are answering Tolkien's mysteries: What happened to the Ithryn Luin? Where are the other 4 clans of Dwarves? Many others will and are coming.

Perhaps you only like to rewrite Tolkien's stories as a monk would rewrite the bible, taking time only to add little drawings around the margins and a fancy letter at the beginning of each page. That is not Role-Playing. _Role-playing_ is taking a character and becoming them; playing their role, thinking what they would think, doing what they would do, asking the questions and giving the answers that they would ask and tell. It is not rehashing them or expanding on the brief descriptions made of them, that is called _recycling_.

As I said before. If you like to _role-play_...come to MERPG (if you're a fan of the Live-Action Role-Play, you will enjoy MERPG...send me a PM if you want any information, or just join up ). If you like to recycle and rehash stories, go somewhere else .


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## Gothmog (May 11, 2004)

> So there it is. That's what I think. If you delete this thread, I'll find out one way or another and I'll re post it, as many times as I need because it's something you definitely need to hear. I'm not really that sorry if I've offended anyone. Sometimes that's the only way to get through to people. To call them out and make jokes about how fat their moms are.



Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us. However, since you claim that you will not be returning a couple of questions.

Why would you care if this thread was deleted?
Why do you feel any need to repost it if it was deleted?

The points you gave have been completely covered by others in this thread. But just one final thought of my own. If the only way that you can get through to people is to throw insults, then I can only hope that you will develop some measure of maturity one day.


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## Confusticated (May 12, 2004)

Can you not see a distiction between a tale of events and people that is in harmony with what Tolkien provided us, and a tale that is from JRRT?

I'd rather not retell any story, at least not one that is told thoroughly. But I would like to do stories that were mentioned, maybe a story about the journey of some Men into Beleriand, for exmple. We know it happened, but we don't know much about it. Anyhow, I don't see why you seem to think anything that is in harmony with the history of Middle-earth has to be a retelling. This doesn't mean all sorts of stuff can't be made up. Of course, ideally I'd rather make a tale that is not even hinted at in the book (my Beleriand lost lovers Idea for exmaple, if you saw my idea for it), there is a lot of room for it, however I find people actually seem to be more interested in JRRT's own tales when it comes to thinking about doing a First Ape RP... but this is not me. That is another sad fact about MERPG, but it may apply to TTF too if RPs were to be allowed here: very little interest in First Age RPs. 

I really don't know much about your chronicles but I did see the last ones you guys had at MERPG as they were a perfect example of what I would like least to do. The apeal of an RP goes away for some when the setting doesn't resemble Middle-earth enough. Just what "enough" is, is an individual thing I am sure. But if the current chronicles are in harmony with JRRT's history (as I am being told by a few people) then I guess those who put them together can understand why it needs to be done and should maybe not pick on those of us who appreciate things that fit in Middle-earth better than others. If they are in harmony they are in Middle-earth, if not, then they may as well be any old fantasy world.

For some, any big historical inaccurracies.. for example someone speaking a language that did not even exist yet, hurt the credibilty too much.


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## Uminya (May 12, 2004)

I find myself agreeing with you. I, too, wish there was a good First-Age RP to participate in (I think that there is a First/Second Age one about to start...) as this is an age of mysteries and an age of wonder.

But anyways, I think we've thoroughly gotten sidetracked from this thread.  If you'd like to talk, I'm not hard to reach, Nóm.


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## Walter (May 12, 2004)

What I find interesting is, that someone who once was a contributing member of this place after a few months of absence still holds enough grudge to come back and write such a post. Makes me wonder what causes such a lasting animosity and at whom it is actually directed.

I would not agree that this forum is going down the drain, as some seem to see it, the forum was fine and busy _before_ the movie and I fail to see why it could not be so _after_ the movie. But the quantity of the contributions would not necessarily have to be at the same level as we had it during the movie years.

My interest in Tolkien and his work has not reached its zenith yet, in fact for me it has re-sparkled the interest in history, mythology, literature, philosophy and etymology I once had in my teenage years. I am sure some members around here feel similar...

All we needed now to make this forum a cozy place - again - is a little goodwill and continuity from the members' side, but what we - IMHO - definitely can do without are statements like:



> First and foremost, this is a privately owned and funded website. You do not have a right to Freedom of Speech here. As for what the staff chooses to delete, move or otherwise alter; they are not answerable to you or anyother member save only the Webmaster aka DAPence to defend or champion their actions. Certainly mistakes will be made, but that is an constant in life. Anyone who can not handle that little bit of wisdom would do well to seek professional help



While what our dear RD says is "technically" true, it is highly contraproductive to any attempt to make us members feel like being "at home" here and that our quality contributions are the true assets of a place like TTF. Sad, really...


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## Confusticated (May 12, 2004)

I agree with your last statement Walter! I was furious when I read that, so much so I waited until calmed down before posting in the thread, and decided it best not to comment on it since I couldn't think of a nice enough way to say it was a BS thing to say because everytime i thought about it anger builded up in me!


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## Lantarion (May 12, 2004)

Yes I'm beginning to get a little annoyed at the constant repetition of that technical fact as well.. I think it is covered in the FAQ and/or somewhere else, and perhaps it is time to try and focus on more welcoming approaches than bluntly stating what members' rights do _not_ include. Thanks for pointing that out Walter. 
As long as people understand the terms of using this site, I think matters of outlook and atmosphere can be viewed in more favourable light, as both of the latter are based on those rules in great part, or operate under them. 

I agree Walter, not only is Tolkien and his works a veritable bottomless well of potential knowledge and research and questions, but through him and his life's work readers are introduced to new aspects and topics in life: linguistics and mythology have been the two primary facets for me, as well as poetry.


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## Halasían (May 12, 2004)

> RangerDave said: _"Point 3
> First and foremost, this is a privately owned and funded website. You do not have a right to Freedom of Speech here. As for what the staff chooses to delete, move or otherwise alter; they are not answerable to you or anyother member save only the Webmaster aka DAPence to defend or champion their actions. Certainly mistakes will be made, but that is an constant in life. Anyone who can not handle that little bit of wisdom would do well to seek professional help"_


 This has to be one of the most sensible thing said in this whole thread.  

Having done time on a few Tolkien messageboards over the years, there are always some on them that think they are indespensible to the board community and without them it will, or has gone down the drain. People just need to get over themselves and move on if they aren't happy with the people or administration of any particular website. People will come and people will go, and some will drop in every now and then. I really don't see why such a rant as this thread draws so much continued response.... mine included. It's best responded to and then ignored to die while energies are used elsewhere on the site. I have seen it all before, and unfortunatly, will see it again I'm sure.

That said... I have to say I like the look and feel of the functionality of this site... always did, though I thought the owners like to change things alot. Keep up the good work and know your efforts are appreciated by the majority.


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## Gandalf The Grey (May 13, 2004)

About a month ago, I joined a different Tolkien forum, and have been spending far more of my time there and at MERPG than here at TTF.

Reasons? Well, compare how I've been treated in each forum:

At TTF, when I asked for help regarding what the process was for acquiring an avatar, having earned one through a sufficient number of posts, I ended up having to ask a non-TTFer to please make me one, since at the time I did not have Photoshop. I'm very grateful to a certain graphics guy at my workplace for helping me in this regard. 

As for participating in TTF threads, it's been my experience that in many cases newcomers to places like the Book threads are passed over in silence, in favor of veteran regulars responding to each others' posts. The movie threads tend to be taken up with two factions debating such things as the meaning of the word "hubris" carried to a point well beyond trivial absurdity to the edge of personal attacks. Therefore, my interest level towards participating in such threads has dropped to nil. Giving credit where it's due, my riddles and poetry have been well received here.

At the new Tolkien forum, I was immediately provided with a choice of "beginner's" avatars to choose from. Then, before having made my 50th post, I was pleasantly surprised when one of the mods, on her own initiative and without my even asking, PM'ed me the gift of a personalized "Gandalf the Grey" avatar specially crafted just for me!

At MERPG, I was granted the honor of teaching a Word Skills class in a special thread there, and count among my students a goblin, an Elf, a lady of Rohan, and an Easterling. This RPG has proven a wonderfully satisfying and rewarding venture! I started a contest, and am currently very pleased to have just finished judging four high-quality submissions that are all highly deserving of praise, though only one has won the pure gold quill, gold ink bottle, gold-flecked black ink, and gold-threaded parchment! 

IMHO, it's all about friendliness in action.

~~ Gandalf the Grey


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## Arvedui (May 14, 2004)

Gandalf The Grey said:


> As for participating in TTF threads, it's been my experience that in many cases newcomers to places like the Book threads are passed over in silence, in favor of veteran regulars responding to each others' posts.


I can only answer on behalf of myself, and I will limit myself to this particular part of your post:
Sometimes the topic posted have already been answered by others. I don't see any reason to post when all I can contribute with, is somthing that repeat what others have said. Also, it is against the forum rules.
Sometimes, I have no interest in the topic at hand. Maybe I have already answered that particular topic several times already. Sometimes I have no opinion on the subject. Sometimes I don't have aclue as what to answer.

Another point here is that sometimes, the veteran regulars tend to be a bit arrogant when answering a topic that they know in depth, and have replied to numerous times. Therefore, it is perhaps better that we do not reply, but let other people discuss the matter and come to a conclution the same way the veterans once did.

And sometimes the "veterans" might be more interested in discussing and researching in "unknown territory" than to keep walking on the same paths over and over, if you understand my meaning.

And now I probably just sounded as patronizing as I might have when replying for the 37th time concerning "What was Tom Bombadil?" If so, please appologize.
But sometimes, I want to use my time to explore further into the works of Tolkien. And my time is very limited. I also have other work to be done here.

As for Avatars, I am completely clueless on how to make them, so I am not of much help there.


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## Confusticated (May 14, 2004)

One thing that annoys me personaly is when a Tolkien vet answers a new reader's question as though the new reader isn't actually ignorant!

For example... something like this:


Question: Who is Ungoliant? I have heard the name.

Answer: Ungoliant was a giant spider that lived south of Valinor and helped Melkor darken the city by sucking the light out of Laurelin and Telperion. 

HELLO! They don't know who Ungoliant is, why assume they know about Melkor and the two trees?

Something like this is more fitting: She was an enormous evil spider that lived in the ancient days of Middle-earth. You can read all about her in _The SIlmrillion_. Let me know if you want more information.


Okay, done ranting. 

And as for posts getting ignored... Not all posts get replies! Well over half my posts in the movie forum, and a lot of my posts in the LotR forum, get ignored... and I have been a member for 2 years and post all the time! It's not just a new member thing. But I would suggest that thread starters sometimes consider going out of the way a little to acknowledge posts made in the thread by very new members or members who just don't show up in the area very often. Makig people feel welcome is really imporant, because some (I dare say most?) people are very sensitive to this sort of thing.

As for your avatar Gandalf, I am sorry but I saw your post which asked for information on where to get one or who to contact. I saw Rhiannon suggested I might make you one, and I was all set to PM you about it but reading on a few posts I saw it had been taken care of. But to be fair there was only one day between the posts, not really enough time to conclude that no one assisted you, especially since both Beorn and Rhiannon did reply to you on the matter. One or (even a few days) just doesn't seem long enough to me, given that most members do not make avatars. But for whatever it may be worth, had you contacted me or had I found your post one say sooner I'd have gladly made you an avatar.


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## Gandalf The Grey (May 14, 2004)

Arvedui said:


> But sometimes, I want to use my time to explore further into the works of Tolkien.



Then I see we have something in common, *Arvedui* .  

*Nóm* 

I'm happy to be the first to recognize that what you say is true, both regarding my avatar and having one's posts go unanswered. * nods agreement *

My points remain:

1) At the other Tolkien forum, I was automatically provided with an avatar from the very first day I joined, as soon as I registered. Avatar selection was not based on post count. And I recognize it for what it is ... a difference of "policy and procedure" between the way things are done over on the other forum as compared with how they're done here at TTF.

2) Since my posting efforts have generated far more enthusiastic, on-going interest at MERPG than they have at TTF ... then it only makes sense that I'll gravitate towards being a more active member of MERPG moreso than TTF, and have a more enjoyable time in an environment where I can see for myself ... by way of public posts and numerous Private Messages in my in-box ... positive tangible indications that my posts are appreciated.

As for TTF, there's always the opportunity that I'll end up encountering a "like-mind and kindred spirit" through a "chance meeting", so odds are I'll at least wander through every now and then. 

And as for my pointing out such things as I have in this thread? Well, you're all welcome to call me Stormcrow as you like! 

At your Service, * bows *

Gandalf the Grey


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## Barliman Butterbur (May 15, 2004)

As a newcomer, I have no cause — yet  — for complaints. I have made my share of trouble, and have given cause for offense. The reactions to me were my own fault, and I accept responsibility for the consequences to me (once threatened with being banned for a time).

I think the mods do a fine job here — after all, there is a lot to get annoyed about at times, and they are many times patient beyond the call of duty.

I have my own preferences: I do not respond — usually — to the questions of the newer members, or questions I think are silly or dumb (which are of course not so to others) or to most of the speculative questions, although I now see that these questions are a source of great pleasure to others. The only thing that really gets me hot is when I experience arrogance in someone's seemingly having appointed themselves as an expert authority and will brook no contradiction. Or a statement of outright bigotry.

But I intend to stick around, although perhaps not as often as before, and I might even explore other sites.

But no one should worry about this place sinking. It's been online for four years. That's a good sign! That in itself is an achievement. People come here from all over the world with a common interest in Tolkien of course, and start interesting non-Tolkien threads as well (where I find myself most often), and make friends. That's a very good thing.

But I blather on, and will stop. It's all just to say: everything's on track! Don't worry, be happy!

Lotho


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