# in terms of power who had more Gandalf or Sauron: who would win?



## jubiKaL (Oct 18, 2005)

I got into a semi argument about this and i wanted to hear what more experienced loremasters had to say

i think it would be an semi even match 
-Gandalf was forbidden to confront Sauron directly by the Powers
-they were the same race Maiar
what do you think?


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## YayGollum (Oct 18, 2005)

I think that it depends on what point in time you happen to be writing about. If you are talking about the Lord Of The Rings type times, with no interference from minions or buddies or whatever, no Rings Of Power, just spiritual power and brains versus spiritual power and brains, then yes, it could look pretty even, but I would still go with Sauron. Hm. But then, is not the evil torturer Gandalf mentioned among one of the most powerful of the Ainur types? Maybe he was just mentioned as one of the most notable. I don't remember. Sauron was way cooler, though. More knowledgeable of fighting, too. If you are speaking of them at full power, though, Sauron would merely have to sneeze at the evil torturer Gandalf to destroy the dude. sorry about that.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Oct 19, 2005)

jubiKaL said:


> -Gandalf was forbidden to confront Sauron directly by the Powers
> -they were the same race Maiar
> what do you think?



All things being equal, I think Sauron would have won: 

"I have spoken words of hope. But only of hope. Hope is not victory. War is upon us and all our friends, a war in which only the use of the Ring could give us surety of victory. It fills me with great sorrow and great fear: for much shall be destroyed and all may be lost. I am Gandalf, Gandalf the White, _*but Black is mightier still."* —The Two Towers, Ch. 5: The White Rider_

Barley


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## Noldor_returned (Oct 19, 2005)

Sauron had more power. As you pointed out, Gandalf was forbidden to openly challenge Sauron, but some of his other battles give evidence. Saruman joined sides with Sauron, as he expected to lose. In the first face-off between Saruman and Gandalf, Saruman won. When Gandalf returned as the White Wizard, he was more powerful, but could still not have beaten Sauron. Remember, if Sauron had gotten his ring back he would have been undefeatable.
In concern of the point that you made saying they are both maiar, the *5 *Istari were sent back to challenge the might of Sauron. Even though Gandalf was the greatest of the Istari, the fact that there were supposed to be 5 of them against 1 suggests that Sauron is stronger.
I think the question should really be who would last longer in a fight between them? Unless Sauron's ring was destroyed, Gandalf would never have a chance because the only way Sauron could perish is if the ring was destroyed. As I said earlier, you have to take into account Gandalf's other battles. In his fight against the Balrog, Gandalf was defeated by a Maiar with considerably less strength. During the events of the Hobbit, the White Council drove Sauron out of Mirkwood, but his evil remained. Although the White Council was possibly the strongest organisation in Middle-Earth at the time, they still could not constrain Sauron.

Once again, Sauron had more power.


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## Thorondor_ (Oct 20, 2005)

> All things being equal, I think Sauron would have won:
> 
> "I have spoken words of hope. But only of hope. Hope is not victory. War is upon us and all our friends, a war in which only the use of the Ring could give us surety of victory. It fills me with great sorrow and great fear: for much shall be destroyed and all may be lost. I am Gandalf, Gandalf the White, _*but Black is mightier still."* —The Two Towers, Ch. 5: The White Rider_
> 
> Barley


Imo, the "Black" is all the power of the evil side; that is Sauron _plus_ the nazgul (at least). So I don't think this quote is a refference to Sauron only; Gandalf could only be saying that he cannot win the war all by himself.

In Unfinished Tales, Of the Istari, the wizards are described as "mighty, peers of Sauron" - and this is true even before Gandalf becomes "the white".


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## YayGollum (Oct 20, 2005)

In my opinion, that quote always made me think that if the evil torturer Gandalf ever ended up obtaining the One Ring thing, he would end up with even more power while calling himself Gandalf the Black, mayhaps obtaining some points of interest for me.  oh well. Nevermind. Merely writing.


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## Corvis (Dec 8, 2005)

I believe that Gandalf could not defeat the Witch King and Sauron was in control of the Witch King which means that he was more powerful than him. Then that would mean that Sauron is more powerful than Gandalf as well.


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## Withywindle (Feb 7, 2006)

Corvis said:


> I believe that Gandalf could not defeat the Witch King and Sauron was in control of the Witch King which means that he was more powerful than him. Then that would mean that Sauron is more powerful than Gandalf as well.


 
But Gandalf tells Gimli in "The White Rider" that he himself is `more dangerous than anything you will meet unless you are brought before the seat of the Dark Lord himself`. So G. clearly considers is own powers to be now greater than anything else in Middle Earth except for Sauron´s (and possibly Bombadil´s, but one wouldn´t think of him as dangerous).

Nonetheless the gulf between Sauron and G. is enormous, Sauron was one of the most powerful Maia, perhaps the chief of the Maia of Aulë whereas Olorin was probably a middle-ranking Maia of the Lesser Vala Lorien.


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## Annaheru (Feb 8, 2006)

Withywindle said:


> Nonetheless the gulf between Sauron and G. is enormous, Sauron was one of the most powerful Maia, perhaps the chief of the Maia of Aulë whereas Olorin was probably a middle-ranking Maia of the Lesser Vala Lorien.


 
Agreed. Remember too the (?HoME? can't rememeber exactly where it's found) account of the choosing of the Istari. Gandalf didn't consider himself up to the task.

It is mere speculation on my part, but in Sil we know that Sauron learned much sorcery from Morgoth himself, and I have always wondered if Morgoth didn't 'expend some of his spirit' on Sauron in addition to his lesser minions . . .

Regardless, I think Sauron was head and shoulders above most of the other Maia. After he weakened himself through the Ring it is possible that someone like Eonwe could have fought him, but certainly not Gandalf. Gandalf was _not_ a "warrior Maia", I would rather characterize him as a diplomat: his main gift was his wisdom, and his ability to organize and inspire the foes of evil to work together.


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## Withywindle (Feb 8, 2006)

Of course, if we reflect on Sauron in the Silmarillion, and indeed the Second Age its not always easy to square up those accounts with the Sauron of the War of the Ring who wasn´t even wearing the One Ring.

By that I mean his closely fought duel of "wizadry" with Finrod, his being completely whipped by Luthien and Huan, and later his being overcome by Gil-Galad and Elendil (I know cutting the ring off his finger was decisive, but we are given the impression that he was esentially K.O.ed by Gil Galad first although dying in process).

How do we square all this up? Were the lords of the Eldar that powerful? Or perhaps Sauron´s power in a one-to-one confrontation wasn´t so impressive?


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## Annaheru (Feb 8, 2006)

I would say that the Eldar _were_ that powerful. After all, Fingolfin hurt Morgoth, albeit after he'd been weakened. 

But consider that Tulkas beat Morgoth in a wrestling match when he was still the greatest of the Ainu. It seems that even the mightiest can be beaten.

As for Sauron: Felagund was universally acknowledged as extremely skilled in "wizardry", so the fact that he won would rather indicate his strength than his weakness. Against Haun (Luthien didn't do that much), he was fighting against Fate itself- Morgoth couldn't have won that battle. Gil-Galad and Elendil were the greatest "heros" of their respective races at that time, so that 'draw' is understandable (considering too that he had lost his ability to change form).

As a Maia of Aule's kindred his power was certainly more craft oriented than say a relative of Tulkas, but Gandalf's powers had even greater separation from brute force.


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## Withywindle (Feb 8, 2006)

I certianly agree that Sauron´s power was directed toward his initial naute: metalurgy or vulcanology or whatever. Indeed all the Ainur, even Manwë were "limited" in this way with the exception of Melkor whose power was his to dispose of as he wished. In this sense the power of the Eldar was “freer” than that of the Ainur and this might explain why, when put on the spot, an Eldar could overpower an Ainu despite the greater power of the latter.

Applying this to Gandalf/Sauron, G. was an Istari, a special case of the Maiar whose powers were changed and made more “disposable” or “directable” perhaps through the staff. In this way G. might have given S. a closer fight in a one-to-one, unless S. regained the Ring which was like the staff but a 1000 times stronger.

Am I making any sense?!


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## Annaheru (Feb 8, 2006)

> Am I making any sense?!


 
yes 

This is where the difference between the old limited Gandalf and the reborn "fully powered" Gandalf comes into play (it should be noted that IMHO when Gandalf return after Moria the Istari limitations of his power as a Maia were removed. That is, he could once again have walked "unclad" if his mission had allowed him to reveal his true identity).


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## Withywindle (Feb 11, 2006)

But when G. returns, although now in pure spirit form does remain an Istari to an extent. He certainly relies on his staff still - he needed it work his miracle on Theoden. And so, although he is no longer constrained by a body, his powers may still be subject to certian conditions undertaken by all of the Istari.

I have thought of a new angle to the debate. S. and G. were both most effective in manipulting others- Saron by domination, deceit and intimidation, G. by persuasion, awaking people´s conscience (the Kindler) etc. We might consider G´s and S´s relative successes in marshalling and deploying the forces of the East and the West for the great contest of the War of the Ring and the run up to it. G. is quite sure that without destroying the Ring, the West had no chance, but he certainly works ceaselessly to bring all available resources into play, and up to a point we see that every move of Sauron´s has a counter move by G. as it were a great game of chess. So who was the greater chess grandmaster: Gandalf or Sauron?


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## Barliman Butterbur (Feb 11, 2006)

In general, see my Post #3 in this thread.



Withywindle said:


> ...who was the greater chess grandmaster: Gandalf or Sauron?



Gandalf was the greater, if only because of the advantage of his physical mobility. As I see it Sauron, because of his fear (yes, he lived in great fear, just as had Melkor) never ventured out of his hiding hole, Barad-dur, and spent all his time shored up behind the Morannon, seeing everything from the view of one besieged. Gandalf could travel all over Middle-earth at need, marshalling needed forces. With Sauron, everything and everyone had to come to him.

Barley


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## Annaheru (Feb 11, 2006)

Well let's put it this way: Sauron was the better chess player, he had the perfect setup, and was two moves away from checkmate, but he also has a history of heart disease, and Gandalf knew both of these facts.

So he stuck a hobbit in Sauron's aorta, and the chessboard became irrelevant. 

To my thinking, Sauron couldn't have lost the war, he had Gandalf beat, and they both knew it. That's when Fate stepped in and tipped the scales.
In the end, Sauron's only weakness was that he was too smart. Gandalf's greatest strength was his willingness to sanction the impossible and trust in Fate.

Thus Sauron's greater strength/power didn't matter.


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## Thorondor_ (Feb 12, 2006)

> Sauron couldn't have lost the war, he had Gandalf beat, and they both knew it.


Gandalf/Elrond/Galadriel _could_ have won the war using the ring, (and considering The last debate, even some of the Men leaders could have achieve that) but in the end a new Sauron would have been created this way.


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## Withywindle (Feb 12, 2006)

OK, but lets leave the Ring aside for a moment, it obnly entered the "endgame" on the very eve of the war. Up to that time, and for at least a 500 years on S.´s part and 150 years on G.´s, they manoevered and prepared for the great showdown:

S´s move: The dragons destroy the remaining Dwarf Kingdoms and the Seven are destroyed or recovered, thus breaking the stenght of Dwarves and weakening the North.
G´s move: Fails to recover last of Seven, but launches quest for Erebor. Re-establishes Dwarf strength in North and alliance with Northmen in Dale.

S´s move: Sauron "peoples Moria with his creatures" and "orcs make strongholds in the Misty Mountains"
G.´s move: Battle of Five armies all but wipes out Orc populations, they remain weak at time of War of the Ring.

S.´s move: the treason of Saruman.
G.´s move: although Saruman was a last-minute blow, his friendship with Treebeard "the only wizard that cares about trees" was an ace up his sleeve and allowed him to deliver an unexpected blow to Sauron´s plans.

Then we just have general moves: Sauron drew on Easterlings, Haradrim and all that he could seduce to his side. G. shook the Eldar out of their apathy; brought the Shire into play; kept in constant contact with Gondor and Rohan to try to ensure thaeir readiness

They were both very clever and tireless in their preparations. I do See G. as more impressive here as he had so little to work on. But then we don´t see S. side of the story and just how difficult it may have been to bring obout Saruman´s treason, or to seduce the Haradrim.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Feb 12, 2006)

Annaheru said:


> Well let's put it this way: Sauron was the better chess player, he had the perfect setup, and was two moves away from checkmate...



A nice little simile, but you forget (as do we all every so often): it was _Tolkien_ who was the _real_ (and only!) "chessplayer," and he was playing both sides of the board! 

We always, in our love for the story and our subsequent intense involvement in it (a sure and genuine testament to the talent of the author), forget that these are only characters in a book whose "fate" was simply what the author decided. 

Barley


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## warswics (Feb 13, 2006)

Interesting question... Who is more powerful, Gandalf or Sauron. As Withywindle says, you have to exclude the ring. I think that, without a doubt, Sauron is more powerful, or at least appears to be more powerful (we never really see Gandalf "let loose"). 

Having said that, Gandalf wins in the end. He outmanuevers Sauron (using the Chess analogy) and checkmates old Sauron just as Sauron thinks the game is won. 

If they were to go at it, one on one, mano e mano (so to speak) I think Sauron would win... 

So my answer is, I don't know. LOL I can argue for both sides. I guess I'll say that although Sauron is stronger, I think Gandalf would win in the end.


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