# Study - Realms Of Arda: Geography



## Morgoth (Dec 10, 2003)

I would like to use this thread for members to pose questions about any aspect of Tolkien geography, in particular the more obscure aspects, instead of cluttering up the Never Asked Question thread with geography questions. I would like to open with the following question: Were there any geographical features of Middle Earth that didn't change after the downfall of Numenor?


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## Gil-Galad (Dec 10, 2003)

Well,I cannot understand the question in a way ,but as far as I understand it ,I would say that there weren't big changes after the Fall of Numenor.Saying "big" changes I mean unnatural changes,those which were caused by Valar's actions.
After the Fall of Numenor there were no reasons for new shaping or changes.Of course many small things(places,valleysn etc) changed throughout the years,because of natural effects on them or because of evil's or men's actions.


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## Morgoth (Dec 10, 2003)

No, in the question I was referring to the resaping of the world, when Numenor was sunk. We may or may not be talking about the same thing  . I do concede, however that the question is unclear. Any questions from anyone?


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## Gil-Galad (Dec 10, 2003)

Referring to the shaping of Middle-earth -as far as I know there was no re-shaping of Middle-earth after The Fall of Numenor.As I said in my previous post there was no reason for such actions.


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## Morgoth (Dec 11, 2003)

> And all the coasts and seaward regions of the western world suffered great change at this time; for the seas invaded the land, and the shores foundered, and ancient isles were drowned, and new isles were uplifted; and hills crumbled and rivers were turned into strange courses.


The above section from _Alkallabeth_ would suggest that there was change in Middle-Earth when Numenor was drowned. I think the reference to the western world could be ambiguous and cause some confusion, however, as is it referring to the Undying Lands, which are undoubtably in the west, or the western area of Middle-Earth? I thought that it would only refer in detail to Middle Earth because not a great deal is said about the location of rivers and hills in Aman, but there is a lot of reference to the geography of Middle-Earth. Also, if you compare the map of Middle-Earth in _The Silmarillion_ it is clear to see that it is almost entirely different to the map given in _Lord Of The Rings_.


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## Lhunithiliel (Dec 11, 2003)

The re-shaping of what is largely known as Middle-earth happened at the end of the First Age, when the united forces of the Valar and the Elves cast down Melkor's fortress Thangorodrim and held him captive to be later banned into the Void. That clash was so severe that a great part known as East Beleriand disappeared. Yet some parts of the once wonderful Beleriand - stage of the breathtaking events, described in the "Silmarillion", still survived.
For example the Ered Luin - mountain chain (The Blue Mountains) that were once in the most eastern part of Beleriand., after the "Armageddon"-like re-shaping of Middle earth came to survive as the most western mountain chain of ME.

I have a "geographical" question too, please.

Where exactly was the Lake of Awakening?


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## Morgoth (Dec 11, 2003)

I found the following on TolkienWiki, I'm not sure if it's what you're looking for, but it's close. http://www.thetolkienwiki.org/wiki.cgi?action=browse&id=Cuivi%e9nen&oldid=Koivi%eb-n%e9ni 
It describes the location of the Waters Of Awakening, not the Lake Of Awakening, so it's probably not what you want. 
P.S. This took me half an hour of using links in TolkienWiki, I couldn't find anything using the search


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## Lhunithiliel (Dec 11, 2003)

When you can't find sth. on TW it may mean two things:
1/ Either you have written the word (searched) in a different way than it exists in the data base of the encyclopedia
or
2/ there is still no entry about it.

Another way (except the "sarch" option) is to go the INDEX and search there for a name/word etc. that would match what you're looking for. 

I hope this helped 

Besides, whenever you find a page which finishes with "tbc", it means that the subject needs more information to be provided and that either you or the original author of the entry or anyone else can provide this information about the particular subject. The only condition, however, is the information entered to be well checked and true!  

Thanks for the link, anyway!


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## Morgoth (Dec 11, 2003)

Was it what you were looking for, or was it something entirely different? I used the index on the Tolkien Wiki to try to find the precise term you asked for, so either the TW doesnt have any info on it yet, or it exists in a different form, as you said. Or the link I added was what you were looking for. One of the three.


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## Helcaraxë (Dec 13, 2003)

Lhun, do you mean Cuivienin? That was in the far east of ME. Or was before it was lost. (See Karen Wynn Fonstad's "Atlas of ME" for details.)

MB


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## Morgoth (Dec 13, 2003)

I think you're right, my Bane, it would be logical that Cuivienin is the place Lhun is referring to, as it is where the first elves awoke, and is a lake. This is what the link was posted to, but the TW seems to think it was a bay. My copy of _The Silmarillion_ would argue otherwise. As the TW info is tbc (thanks for telling me what this means, Lhun  ) I will apply to TW to add to the information, and change it.


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## Morgoth (Dec 17, 2003)

This is sort of a geographical question, but I can't remember what the word 'Cair' means (as in Cair Andros). And is it's meaning the same as that of Tolkien's friend and Chronicles Of Narnia author C.S. Lewis 'Cair Paravel'? Just interested.


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## Lhunithiliel (Dec 17, 2003)

Yes, Morgoth and his bane,  , I was referring to the Lake where the Elves awoke. And I know it was lost...Unfortunately, I don't have that "Atlas" available, so I caan't check and I have always wondered about it's precise location. As far as I am aware of, the Sea of Run (sp?) is waht is left from that lake  
But.... I have to admit, I have not yet found some detailed info about it, and how it was lost and where exactly it was.... or I might have just not paid attention....   

Morgot's Bane, if you can scan sth. out of that Atlas and post it here it would be lovely! 

Morgoth, to your new Q: Isn't "cair" sort of a peak...or at least some kind of a hill?...I might be mistaken though. We should check....Hmmmm... where, I wonder....? 

I checked!  
Here is what the Encyclopedia of Arda  has for Cair Andros.
Still...the word "cair"...then does it mean an "island", I wonder?
Or a "ship"?

Oh! And now I have remembered...It is the word "amon" that meant "peak" or at least "a high place".


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## Inderjit S (Dec 19, 2003)

Cair means 'ship' in Sindarin. (Ros-foam 'Problem of Ros'; Cair=ship; Etymologies; HoME 5; (Círdan/Ship-wright); anad=long)

So, Cair (Ship) And (Long) Ros (Foam), _Ship of Long-foam_.



> about it's precise location. As far as I am aware of, the Sea of Run (sp?) is waht is left from that lake



The sea of Rhûn is the N-W tip of the Sea of Helkar. (LQ I; HoME 11). Some of the Teleri were said to have dwelt on the Sea of Rhûn on the Great Journey, and there developed the art of boat-crafting etc. Círdan is said the most eager of the Teleri in the conduction of these early experiments with boats.


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## Morgoth (Dec 22, 2003)

Thank you, Inderjit, most helpful. I take it no-one has any idea whether this was the same meaning that C.S. Lewis employed in Narnia. Anything mentioned in _Letters_?


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## Morgoth (Dec 23, 2003)

Ok, it seems the whole C.S. Lewis question shall remain unanswered. Anyone else want to venture any puzzlements over the geography of ME?


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## Belegmacar (Dec 29, 2003)

Well, my question isn't exactly about the geography of ME, but the geography of Arda. Does anyone know anything about the Sun Lands (Easternesse) and the Dark Lands? Did any peoples dwell upon these islands?


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## Morgoth (Jan 4, 2004)

Well, I've tried my hardest, but I couldnt find anything, Belegmacar. Apologies.


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## Starflower (Jan 4, 2004)

Belegmacar said:


> Well, my question isn't exactly about the geography of ME, but the geography of Arda. Does anyone know anything about the Sun Lands (Easternesse) and the Dark Lands? Did any peoples dwell upon these islands?




well it seems that what you call "Easternesse", would be the 'unknown East' so to speak, noone knows anyting about those lands, and if anyone lived there, they do not make it to these stories. And the same goes to the ark Lands, they would be the lands beyond Harad in the south, both of these are also described as 'Empty Lands', which pretty much tells you what they are....


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## Belegmacar (Jan 6, 2004)

Thanks. I didn't know anything about it either, so that's why I asked...


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