# Glaurung: Maia or No?



## Úlairi (Jan 7, 2009)

After the lengthy discussion a while back as to whether Smaug or a Balrog would be victorious the discussion entered into the intrinsic natures of Dragons and Balrogs. _Morgoth's Ring_ has a substantial amount of information as to whether Dragons had _fëa_ or not. I became increasingly perplexed after reading _The Children of Húrin_ for the first time where it states that Glaurung's inherent power resides within the evil spirit contained within the _hröa_ but it also states that this spirit was Morgoth's (read _Morgoth's Ring_ in reference to how Morgoth imbued physical bodies with his own being). We know that it appears as though Glaurung was a _rational_ creature capable of _speech_; but was this simply a device of Melkor? 

*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


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## altsaxen (Jan 7, 2009)

I voted Instrument of Morgoth.
I've just read the Silmarillion and it says that Glaurung was created by Morgoth Bauglir and he is the father of dragons. There is of what I can recall never said that Glaurung is maiar. 
Túrin son of Húrin slew Glaurung at Cabed-en-aras.


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## Bucky (Jan 7, 2009)

That thread Ulari mentions opened more questions than answers to me....

I need to re-read it!

I would vote for 'Don't know' if it was an option because, uh, I'm not sure.

I think I covered my reasons back there:

Glaurung has, as Tolkien says, an 'evil spirit': 'And Glaurung spoke by the evil spirit that was in him' (both The Simarillion & CoH at the Bridge of Nargothrond to Turin).

In 'Morgoth's Ring', 'Myth's Transformed VIII', we see much that can relate to this topic.....

Well, there's also Myth's Transformed VII, that as Ulari states, bears on this also, visa vi 'Morgoth's Ring'.

I really need to reread these thoroughly before progressing any farther....


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## Úlairi (Jan 9, 2009)

Honestly, I'm not going to bite anyone's head off here. This is _legitimately_ one of the first threads where I personally haven't formulated an opinion on the matter. I haven't even voted in my own poll yet! It can be argued either way based on the varying nature of _Myths Transformed_ and it's discussion of the _fëa_ which Maiar also posssessed. For anyone confused as to what _kelvar_ (those who haven't read _Morgoth's Ring_) it is simply an animal *without* a _rational soul_ (a _fëa_). 

Tolkien however stipulates that some of the animals in Middle-earth were capable of speech but were animals nonetheless. He refers to _Orcs_ as being animalistic in nature (and are potentially therefore _kelva_) and Huan may also be another example. Ungoliant and Carcaroth are in my opinion most definitely Maiar; although Carcaroth could be also be just another finger on the Black Hand of Morgoth (as might Glaurung also be). Ungoliant conveys a _rational sentience_ (and thus a _rational soul_); especially in her rebellion against Morgoth after the rape of the Two Trees.

In the previous argument as to the nature of whether Smaug would defeat a Balrog - Glaurung was brought into the equation by a few people (including myself). Whilst I adamently contended that the descendants of Glaurung were arguably *not *Maiar I *never* once stipulated that Glaurung *was not*. In actual fact, I would have been more inclined to infer from the text of _The Silmarillion_ that Glaurung conveyed all the characteristics of a Maia. The following quotes from _The Children of Húrin_ (which was absolutely fantastic - I think I may have enjoyed it more than _The Silmarillion_) confused me further pertaining to Glaurung's _inherent being_.



> _The Children of Húrin: The Fall of Nargothrond_
> 
> *Then suddenly he spoke by the evil spirit that was in him, saying: 'Hail, son of Húrin. Well met!*


 
Interesting here is the statement "_by the evil spirit_" which implies that speech was a derivative of this _spirit_. However, was this then a _spirit_ of one of the Maiar?



> _The Children of Húrin: The Journey of Morwen and Niënor_
> 
> *And there right before her was the great head of Glaurung, who had even then crept up from the other side; and before she was aware her eyes had looked into the fell spirit of his eyes, and they were terrible, being filled with the fell spirit of Morgoth, his master.*


 
This is the excerpt that perplexes me the most. I'm aware that I read many of Tolkien's quotes _literally_ - but here I cannot help but notice the use of the word _filled_. This to me infers that Glaurung is simply driven by the power of Morgoth and is another component of his Ring. He is thus just an _instrument of Morgoth_. A _hröa_ encasing his great spirit; thus just being another embodiment of Morgoth Bauglir. 

Opinions?


*Bucky*

It's great to see you back at the boards mate. I'm glad there's a few of the golden oldies from the good ol' days. Please read up on it. I'm (almost) content to discuss this one just with you...


*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


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## Alcuin (Jan 9, 2009)

I’ve not had an opportunity to read _Children of Húrin_. It has been a rather interesting past several months in the real world. However, the passages sound strikingly similar to those in _Silmarillion_ and _HoME_, and I have partially formed an opinion. 

We know from other passages that Morgoth (and Sauron) used spirits of various sorts for his own purposes. His “best” (we would say, “worst”) work was when he corrupted not some mere animal, but another spirit or soul: this was eternally damning (he hoped), and tied that spirit to himself, that he might dominate it, or at least ruin it. In the essay “On Motivations” in _Morgoth’s Ring_, Tolkien noted that Morgoth was a nihilist, and ruining or damning other creatures fits nicely into that mindset, I think.

Many Maiar had followed Melkor Morgoth at the outset, in the _Ainulindalë_. Others fell by the wayside in Arda. (Saruman “fell by the wayside,” and while he might not have been a “follower” of Morgoth, he seems resolutely to have chosen to follow the path of rebellion against Eru. The same might be said of Ungoliant: while not a servant or slave of Morgoth in the sense the Sauron or the balrogs or Boldog of the _Lays of Beleriand_, she also had all eight feet firmly set in the path of rebellion, ruin, and deprivation.) 

Carcharoth the Red Maw was filled with an evil, consuming spirit. Glaurung was filled with a spirit of malicious evil. Both were tended to and reared by Morgoth, so that both may have been demon-possessed; and if not inhabited by the spirits of Maiar, perhaps then of fallen Elves. But I do not think that it was Morgoth’s own, subdivided spirit that was in them, though his evil will and his malice was upon them: I think the context of the story is that they were separate wills in accord with Morgoth’s own madness. 

That leaves open the question of subsequent dragons: was Smaug a _kelvar_? or Scatha the Worm? I’ve no idea. Trolls spoke; but trolls were generally stupid (Sauron bred smarter ones in the Third Age, perhaps by interbreeding the stock with Elves or Men or – horrors! – _Entwives_; just as Sauron or Saruman or both bred a half-Man, half-Orc race that was stronger than normal Orcs and could tolerate the sun) and could not tolerate the sun. Smaug was clever, quick, cunning, resourceful, full of guile, and seems to have tolerated the sun right well: was he an entrapped spirit? I cannot account for how that might have been accomplished without the intervention of Sauron or Morgoth (though perhaps someone would like to venture a bid for the Witch-king; I shall pass on that opportunity), and my strong _impression_, though it is only an impression, is that Smaug was bred during the Third Age without intervention from anyone other than a mommy dragon and a daddy dragon who loved each other very much, or at least found one another tolerable enough long enough to produce a clutch of eggs. (Although Smaug is an evil enough character to warrant live birth, like a pit viper…)

Glaurung does not seem to me strong enough to be a Maia, though perhaps I am mistaken: maybe Turin was able to kill a Maia-inhabited _hröa_ because he got the drop on him; and Turin is, after all, accounted the most powerful of the Mortal heroes of the First Age, is he not? Killing a Maia-Glaurung would put him in the esteemed company of Ecthelion and Glorfindel in terms of combat prowess, and that does seem to be the context in which Tolkien frames Turin Turambar. (Poor Turin comes up a little on the short end of the wisdom stick, but perhaps that might be attributable to the ill intent of Morgoth, who was, according to the tales, constantly (more or less) on the watch to bring to naught or (more to Morgoth’s liking) subvert Turin’s good intentions.) 

I suppose I am going to have to vote for “Maia” after writing this post. Spirit-inhabited most certainly Glaurung was. The spirit of a fallen Elf? That cannot account for Turin’s stature in the tales, but it would certainly account for Glaurung’s apparent weakness at the beginning. “Maia” for me: lesser Maia.


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## Úlairi (Jan 12, 2009)

A well constructed post Alcuin, however there is a strong point I wish to emphasize based on a post made in the _Smaug v Balrog_ thread. 

You and I have already had this discussion...

...but I am willing to discuss it further. 

I still hold the indestructibility of the _fëa_ includes utter inability of its assimilation into another _hröa_. Unfortunately I don't have my books on me at the moment (except for _The Children of Húrin_) so I've just referred you to the posts made between you and I in the _Smaug v Balrog_ thread. I do believe somewhere in _The Silmarillion_ there is a mention of _lesser Ainur_ that could somewhat not even be considered as Maiar.

I will however completely disagree with you that Glaurung was not inherently powerful enough to be a Maiar (or Úmaiar). Many of his idiosyncratic abilities such as Niënor's amnesia and _The Deceit of Túrin _seem to be consistent with the _magia_ and _goeteia_ of Úmaiar (using Sauron in this context - see here and _Letter _#_155_). 

The _kelvar_ issue is an interesting one - but the distinction I made in the poll between _an instrument of Morgoth_ and _kelvar_ was that _kelvar_ can only be dominated and marred for the purposes of evil (as they are animals) whereas _an instrument_ is intended to mean _the spirit of Melkor embodied in a sub-created hröa _(_or hráve_)_._ 

This should get more interesting when I get my books back. Damn I'm sunburnt!

*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


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## Bucky (Jan 14, 2009)

Well, I'm back online after a nasty virus. 

There's even more to research now (Letter 155) & it's 2:30 am......

I voted for Maia & I have a reason but will wait until tommorrow to post & read the links et all.

Now, onto something lighter......


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## Bucky (Jan 14, 2009)

*Well, first off the key in justifying my vote of Maia......

(I hope I stick with it, lol. If you never noticed, I have a habit of occaisionally changing my mind as I research a post)

The key is defing the term 'Maia'.

Do we go by the long established definition from The Silmarillion?

'Maiar: Ainur of a lesser degree than the Valar.' The Simarillion as a whole describes nothing but 'Valar' & 'Maiar', cut & dried. Pretty simple.

However, reading HoME Volume 10, Morgoth's Ring, Myth's Transforn VIII, we see Tolkien state there's more to it than that:

'Melkor had corrupted many spirits - some great, as Sauron, or less so, as Balrogs. The least of these could have been primitive (and much more powerful and perilous - author) Orcs...' (recurring captains of the First Age - me).

This opens up the probabability that these 'least spirits' were what inhabited were-wolves and perhaps vampires - as well as dragons, at least speaking ones (did all dragons speak? Let's not go there).

Since Glaurung was said to have an 'evil spirit' in him, what was that 'evil spirit'?

It certainly gave this beast the ability to talk, to cast spells, which we clearly see that other Maiar like Sauron & Durin's Bane can do, although many other speaking peoples besides Maiar can cast spells as well. But they are not said to have an 'evil spirit' in them as well as not being beasts....... 

So where does this ability to speak & cast spells come from?
I would venture from the 'evil spirit in' Glaurung.....

That seems pretty obvious.

Now, I think we need to look at the quote from CoH:
l*

Quote:
The Children of Húrin: The Journey of Morwen and Niënor

And there right before her was the great head of Glaurung, who had even then crept up from the other side; and before she was aware her eyes had looked into the fell spirit of his eyes, and they were terrible, being filled with the fell spirit of Morgoth, his master. 

*It says the exact same thing in Unfinished Tales..... 

How does one account for this apparent inconsistency?

Difficult, but I think I have it:

At the very end of 'Myth's Transformed VIII:

'See Melkor. It will there be seen that the wills of Orcs and Balrogs, (obviously Maiar - me) etc. , are part of Melkor's power dispersed. Their spirit is one of hate...'

Here, we see Tolkien stating that even Maiar are corrupted & filled with the same 'fell spirit' of Melkor/Morgoth mentioned as being in Glaurung with nienor.

So, it appears that this 'spirit' is the corruption of Melkor, but that it alone is not a spirit great enough to cause Glaurung to speak & cast spells......

We must remember at this point in time (the weaning/'bastardization' of Glaurung), Morgoth is a very considerably weakened Dark Lord & much of his power is already gone.
It would seem likely that a Maia of whatever strength, most likely somewhat considerable compared to the 'Orc Captains' of the First Age yet less than the Balrogs was inhabiting Glaurung.

This is indeed echoed with Carcaroth:

'He (Morgoth) chose one from amoung the whelps of the race of Draugluin; and he fed him with his own hand upom living flesh, and put his power in him. ....There the anguish of hell entered into him, and he became filled with a devouring spirit, tormented, terrible and strong.'

We see again Morgoth's corruption, but an actual spirit (lesser Maiar spirit I'll warrent) fills him.

'*



Glaurung does not seem to me strong enough to be a Maia, though perhaps I am mistaken: maybe Turin was able to kill a Maia-inhabited hröa because he got the drop on him; and Turin is, after all, accounted the most powerful of the Mortal heroes of the First Age, is he not? Killing a Maia-Glaurung would put him in the esteemed company of Ecthelion and Glorfindel in terms of combat prowess,

*Well, I think this idea is based in the Silmarillion-based notion that a Maia is a Maia is a Maia, which I have hopefully dispelled.


Personally, I think were-wolves were 'lesser spirits' for sure, although Sauron had them in the Third Age too.
*

I'm aware that I read many of Tolkien's quotes literally -

*Yeah, me too. I think that's better than the trend these days to "Well, I believe this" theories everywhere that tend to ignore the text though. *


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## Úlairi (Jan 21, 2009)

Bucky said:


> *Well, first off the key in justifying my vote of Maia......*
> 
> *(I hope I stick with it, lol. If you never noticed, I have a habit of occaisionally changing my mind as I research a post)*
> 
> ...


 
There most definitely should be a thread about what the inherent nature of these _lesser spirits _or _lesser beings _(_Naldëalar_) and instances within the text where they arise (such as Boldog). Carcaroth is actually beginning to sound more to me like one of these _lesser spirits_. It also has inspired the idea of another thread pertaining to the possibility of Melkor _multiplying_ Ainur which is also referred to in _Morgoth's Ring_. Perhaps you would like to research and post that one Bucky? We should attempt to create the _Hierarchy of Arda_. 



Bucky said:


> *This opens up the probabability that these 'least spirits' were what inhabited were-wolves and perhaps vampires - as well as dragons, at least speaking ones (did all dragons speak? Let's not go there).*


 
I can't disagree with you here. This is exactly how I've always interpreted these unaccountable creatures (apart from Bombadil). Back to Carcaroth and whether or not he was indeed one of the _Naldëalar_ (Quenya for _lowly beings_ - a term that I've coined for them ).



> _The Silmarillion: Of Beren and Lúthien_
> 
> *There the fire and the anguish of hell entered into him, and he became filled with a devouring spirit, tormented, terrible, and strong...*
> *...but in the howls of Carcaroth was the hate of Morgoth and malice crueller than teeth of steel...*


 


Alcuin said:


> ...the passages sound strikingly similar to those in _Silmarillion_ and _HoME_...


 
Couldn't agree more. Here it is important to notice a differentiation between the _hate of Morgoth_ and the _spirit of Morgoth_. Are these one and the same?



> _The History of Middle-earth X: Morgoth's Ring - Myths Transformed: Text VIII_
> 
> *It will there be seen that the wills of Orcs and Balrogs etc. are part of Melkor's power 'dispersed'. Their spirit is one of hate.*


 
This "_spirit of hate_" or "_hate-spirit_" is the ëala of Morgoth projected through the independent wills and separate entities of his sub-created minions. Drauglin, Carcaroth, Ungoliant, the Balrogs and possibly the Dragons appear to be filled with these lesser ëala but are utterly dominated by the hate and the spirit of Morgoth. I would therefore argue that these _spirits_ are indeed Maiar in origin (or Úmaiar). I would also base this quite heavily on the textual inference that _Eruhín_ _fëar_ could not assume another _hröa_ (identity) whereas the Ainur are capable of doing this willfully.




Bucky said:


> *Difficult, but I think I have it:*
> 
> *At the very end of 'Myth's Transformed VIII:*
> 
> ...


 
And I believe that you and I have come to the same conclusion Bucky. This _fell spirit_ implies the perversion of these _Naldëalar_ to Morgoth's service through the dissipation of his own being into them. It was Morgoth's _modus operandi_ in ensuring the maintenance of control (read the essays on Orcs in _Myths Transformed_). This is also a great indication of why Melkor so freely expended his power on lower beings to gain control over the matter of Arda itself as he was aware of the indestructibility of the _fëar_ of his enemies (but this is all in _Myths Transformed_ anyway). 



Bucky said:


> *We must remember at this point in time (the weaning/'bastardization' of Glaurung), Morgoth is a very considerably weakened Dark Lord & much of his power is already gone.*
> *It would seem likely that a Maia of whatever strength, most likely somewhat considerable compared to the 'Orc Captains' of the First Age yet less than the Balrogs was inhabiting Glaurung.*


 
Yes, but then it comes to the quintessential question: Can these _Naldëalar_ truly be considered as Maiar (or Úmaiar)? Irrefutably they are Ainur but does this category of _lesser beings_ require its own classification? We have instances such as Lúthien casting spells on Morgoth himself and yet (both you Bucky and I) believe that without the dispersion of Melkor into his agents they *may not *have been able to cast spells or become mighty enough to contend with the will of the Great Heroes of the First Age. However, intrinsically Maiar are greater beings than the Eruhíni and are quite capable of _magia_.



Bucky said:


> *This is indeed echoed with Carcaroth:*
> 
> *We see again Morgoth's corruption, but an actual spirit (lesser Maiar spirit I'll warrent) fills him.*


 
Yes, the corruption and perversion of Morgoth requires expenditure of inherent power to induce unfaltering servitude which quite obviously backfired on him in the case of Ungoliant.



Bucky said:


> Glaurung does not seem to me strong enough to be a Maia, though perhaps I am mistaken: maybe Turin was able to kill a Maia-inhabited hröa because he got the drop on him; and Turin is, after all, accounted the most powerful of the Mortal heroes of the First Age, is he not? Killing a Maia-Glaurung would put him in the esteemed company of Ecthelion and Glorfindel in terms of combat prowess,
> 
> *Well, I think this idea is based in the Silmarillion-based notion that a Maia is a Maia is a Maia, which I have hopefully dispelled.*
> 
> ...


 
And I'm on the exact same page there Bucky.



Bucky said:


> I'm aware that I read many of Tolkien's quotes literally -
> 
> *Yeah, me too. I think that's better than the trend these days to "Well, I believe this" theories everywhere that tend to ignore the text though. *


 
Damn straight, well expletive removed said. Hear here!

*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


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