# Who had the greater will?



## Celebthôl (Apr 28, 2003)

Who in the Lord Of The Rings had the greater will? Be it Aragorn, Galadriel, Sauron, Gandalf, Saruman, Elrond or somone else who do you think, please back up your clain with an explination please. 

I believe it was Aragorn, he even beat off Saurons will within the Palantír, and he defeated the will and call of the Ring, Sauron couldnt do that, not even Gandalf could...easily, and neither could Galadriel, but please put forward your choise and why...

Thôl


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 28, 2003)

> I believe it was Aragorn, he even beat off Saurons will within the Palantír, and he defeated the will and call of the Ring, Sauron couldnt do that, not even Gandalf could...easily, and neither could Galadriel, but please put forward your choise and why...



Aragorn was the rightful owner of the Palantir, whereas Sauron was not, and that's where Aragorn's advantage lay.
What do you mean "he defeated the will and call of the Ring"? Galadriel, Gandalf, Elrond didn't exactly succumb to it either, and they all had their chance of seizing it.

We shouldn't disregard the hobbits, they probably had the strongest wills in their own right. But out of the ones you listed I'd choose Sauron or Galadriel. Sauron had trained himself in the domination of others for many millenia.

Of Galadriel this is said in Unfinished Tales:



> Galadriel, the greatest of the Eldar surviving in Middle-earth, was potent mainly in wisdom and goodness, as a director or counsellor in the struggle, [color=sky blue]unconquerable in resistance (especially in mind and spirit)[/color] but incapable of punitive action. In her scale she had become like Manwë with regard to the greater total action. Manwë, however, even after the Downfall of Númenor and the breaking of the old world, even in the Third Age when the Blessed Realm had been removed from the "Circles of the World," was still not a mere observer.


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## Inderjit S (Apr 28, 2003)

> But out of the ones you listed I'd choose Sauron or Galadriel. Sauron had trained himself in the domination of others for many millenia.



Galadriel was no match for Sauron, mentally. Tolkien comments on this is one of the letters, about how Saruman and Gandalf were the only ones with sufficient power to 'take' the ring from Sauron, not even the mightiest of the Elves, Elrond, Galadriel, Cirdan etc could've succeeded in withholding the ring from him.


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## Celebthôl (Apr 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *Aragorn was the rightful owner of the Palantir, whereas Sauron was not, and that's where Aragorn's advantage lay.
> What do you mean "he defeated the will and call of the Ring"? Galadriel, Gandalf, Elrond didn't exactly succumb to it either, and they all had their chance of seizing it.
> 
> We shouldn't disregard the hobbits, they probably had the strongest wills in their own right. But out of the ones you listed I'd choose Sauron or Galadriel. Sauron had trained himself in the domination of others for many millenia.*



Well you can use Hobbits if you want, but i mean Aragorn didnt even show any signs of trying to take the ring or anything, Galadriel did, she turned wired with that foundations of the earth speech and Gandalf had to struggle not to accept the ring when it was offered, Aragorn didnt even mention it, even though it was by right his being Isildurs heir...and Sauron was under its will because he wanted it aswell.


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## YayGollum (Apr 28, 2003)

It was Aragorn's by right? You crazy. It was Sauron's. That evil Isildur person stole the thing. Not very nice. Sauron doesn't have a weak will just because he wants the One Ring so bad. It's part of him. If somebody was always running around a very useful part of you that you knew you could use again if you had it, you'd want the thing back, too. Sauron wasn't weak just because he wanted the thing. It was part of him, so it didn't mess with his brain. 

Anyways, I'd say that the Galadriel lady had the strongest will out of all of those people. Sauron was messed with by Mel pretty easily. Even when the guy was gone. Saruman was messed with just by the idea of the One Ring. Gandalf had that ring with that creepy power of hope always messing with his brain so we don't know how strong his will was in the beginning. Aragorn's a human. Oh, please. He can't help it. That quote about Galadriel helped out a lot, too.


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## BlackCaptain (Apr 28, 2003)

I would say Sauron... Gandalf says that you will find no one more powerfull than Sauron, and by powerful I don't think he meant bench pressing power or sword wielding power. Granted, it would be mace, or hammer wielding in Saurons case, but thats not the point . I don't think anyone else could have came that close to dominating ME but Sauron.


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## Celebthôl (Apr 28, 2003)

but its not about domination its about will power, and Aragorn defeated Saruon in the battle of the wills so it must be Aragorn...though now i think on it, Tom Bombadill was probibly more powerful with regards to will, the ring has no power at all over him...


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Inderjit S _
> *Galadriel was no match for Sauron, mentally. Tolkien comments on this is one of the letters, about how Saruman and Gandalf were the only ones with sufficient power to 'take' the ring from Sauron, not even the mightiest of the Elves, Elrond, Galadriel, Cirdan etc could've succeeded in withholding the ring from him. *



Oh but I think she was a match mentally, at least to some extent. She was "unconquerable in resistance (especially in MIND and spirit)" as it says in UT. And in the letter you are referring to, Tolkien does not say that none of the Elves could have mastered the Ring. Anyway, the question is not who could have mastered the Ring, but who had a stronger will - and this is not the same thing.

From _Letter #246_:



> Sauron would not have feared the Ring! It was his own and under his will. Even from afar he had an effect upon it, to make it work for its return to himself. In his actual presence [color=sky blue]none but very few of equal stature could have hoped to withhold it from him. Of 'mortals' no one, not even Aragorn. In the contest with the Palantír Aragorn was the rightful owner. Also the contest took place at a distance, and in a tale which allows the incarnation of great spirits in a physical and destructible form their power must be far greater when actually physically present[/color]. Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic. In his earlier incarnation he was able to veil his power (as Gandalf did) and could appear as a commanding figure of great strength of body and supremely royal demeanour and countenance.
> [color=sky blue]Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him – being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond[/color].
> It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power. But this the Great had well considered and had rejected, as is seen in Elrond's words at the Council. Galadriel's rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve. [color=sky blue]In any case Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron: they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, until they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force[/color].





> *by Celebthôl*
> Well you can use Hobbits if you want, but i mean Aragorn didnt even show any signs of trying to take the ring or anything



Aragorn didn't try to wrest the Ring from Frodo, but neither did Elrond, Galadriel and Gandalf. Just because Aragorn didn't show any signs of lusting for the ring, doesn't mean that he didn't consider what he could do with it.


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## Celebthôl (Apr 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *Aragorn didn't try to wrest the Ring from Frodo, but neither did Elrond, Galadriel and Gandalf. Just because Aragorn didn't show any signs of lusting for the ring, doesn't mean that he didn't consider what he could do with it. *



yes but Mr Tolkien never mentioned anything about how Aragorn felt with regards to the ring.


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## Arvedui (Apr 29, 2003)

I agree with Celebthôl. My first thought was Aragorn
In addition to the succesful struggle for the Palantir, I will also mention the passing of 'The Paths of the Dead.' It was Aragorn's will that kept the company together:


> Then Aragorn led the way, and such was the strength of his will in that hour that all the Dúnedain and their horses followed him. And indeed the love that the horses of the Rangers bore for their riders was so great that they were willing to face even the terror of the Door, if their masters' hearts were steady as they walked beside them.


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## Feanorian (Apr 29, 2003)

I do not really understand how one could say Sauron. His will or lust for the Ring made the thought of someone attempting to destroy it impossible, because why would anyone want to do that. It did not take much will to rule over his kingdom, it took power which was afforded to him by the Ring and possibly on his own before the Ring but possibly not. He had a good domination to rule other peoples will but if you think about it, there is really no instance in which you can say Sauron had the greatest will. 

I think Galadriel or Gandalf had the greatest will, Frodo offered it to them directly and secretly(in a sense) and they turned it down, even after reflecting on the fact that they could take Sauron's place as emperor of M-E, Elrond also had some will but I think Gandalf would have prevented him from taking it at the council. Because he would have known what would have happened.


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## Ol'gaffer (Apr 29, 2003)

I would say that the person with the greates will would have been Gandalf, I mean. He tracked the ring down and even had it in his hands for a while but gave it away to Frodo and even kept it safe and helped to destroy it (not directly though) and all that time he could have seized the ring but didn't. 

That calls for a strong will there...


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## Celebthôl (Apr 29, 2003)

firstly Elrond knew just what would happen hes was wise enough.

secondly Gandalf never ever ever touched the ring, if he had done he would have become a bearer and would not have given it up.

and yes Aragorn did hold them together through the paths of the dead, and he beat down the gaze on the mouth of Sauron...

and What about Tom Bombadill, he was his own master etc, put thought into him guys


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## Lantarion (Apr 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Celebthôl_
> secondly Gandalf never ever ever touched the ring, if he had done he would have become a bearer and would not have given it up.


Er, I beg to differ. I don't think that just Gandalf's (theoretical) physical handling of the Ring would have caused him to succumb to it. Most likely he would have a passing vision of what he could achieve with the One Ring, but then it would pass, like Sam's did, and I believe that he would have given it up. Or, alternatively, he would have _tried_ to give it up but would have fallen into a schitzophrenic shock-state and would have underwent spontaneous combustion. 
But that seems highly unlikely..


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## Celebthôl (Apr 29, 2003)

LOL, well thats your view each unto their own, anywho, it will never be known what would have happened to him, but oh well...


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## BlackCaptain (Apr 29, 2003)

This is turning into a debate on who has greater will over the Ring. Greater will, wich is the topic, can't be measured by resiliance to the Ring. I don't see how anyone could *not* think it's Sauron with those great quotes Ithrynluin posted


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## baragund (Apr 29, 2003)

I'm surprised that nobody brought this up (especially YayGollum), but what about Smeagol?

Consider this: Gollum kept the Ring for over 500 years under the Misty Mountains. Even though the ring "consumed" him, he never became a vassal of Sauron. He was always searching for His Birthday Present to keep for his own. Even after he was captured by Sauron's servants in TA 3000, imprisoned and tortured in Barad-Dur for over 10 year, there was still an "indomitable will" displayed by Gollum that Sauron could not break. 

After Gollum was released, he continued to operate solely for his own gain always scheming to find the Ring for himself. Examples of this include:

*His escape from Thranduil after he was taken there by Aragorn. Even though Thranduil was being attacked by Sauron's servants, Gollum evaded both parties and escaped into Moria.

*His assisting Frodo and Sam to enter Mordor. This was not to deliver the ring to Sauron, it was Gollum's calculation that he would have a better chance of retaking the ring in the wilderness someplace than if they went to, say, Minas Tirith.

*His leading Frodo and Sam to Shelob. Shelob had no allegiance to Sauron and would not have cared for the Ring. Gollum intended Shelob to kill the hobbits and take the ring for his own.

*At Mt. Doom when Gollum finally takes the Ring from Frodo, Gollum showed no intention of returning the Ring to Sauron. In fact, he was deliriously happy that he was reunited with it.

I think the other candidates (besides Sauron himself) would have a hard time maintaining that level of determination for that long a period. Sauron doesn't count either because the ring is part of himself. That's like asking yourself if you have the will to refrain from using one of your kidneys or the left half of your brain.


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## YayGollum (Apr 29, 2003)

Ack! I was just talking about the people talked about in the first post. Sure, Smeagol was the first guy I thought of, but oh well. I was being nice by not changing the subject. Anyways, doesn't that quote about Galadriel pretty much sum this up?


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## BlackCaptain (Apr 29, 2003)

Who do you think would win in a battle of the minds? Gollum or Sauron? That simple


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## YayGollum (Apr 29, 2003)

Doesn't sound like it has much to do with willpower, though. It seems to me to be that Smeagol had to be stuck with the brain of a little kid, while Sauron got to learn a little more since he's been around before the world was.


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## Arvedui (Apr 30, 2003)

I'm sorry, but I can't buy that Gollum had the strongest will. IMO, his will was in the Ring...


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## baragund (Apr 30, 2003)

Well, you have to admit that pound-per-pound, Gollum was one tough little bugger! Just imagine what any of the prime candidates would be like after being in the presence of the Ring for 500 years AND being the personal house guest of Sauron for 10 years. Elrond, Gandalf, Galadriel, Saruman, Aragorn, and anybody else around could hardly bear to be near the Ring for the short time their given part in LOTR took. Aragorn would, at best, become the 10th Nazgul, and the others would have tried to wield it on their own but ultimately succumb to Sauron's will.


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## Arvedui (Apr 30, 2003)

Ah, but there you have it: Those mentioned had the will NOT to take the Ring in the first place, not even when offered. Gollum/Smeagol comitted murder to get the Ring.

Pound-per-pound, Gollum's only will was to regain the Ring. The poor guy probaly didn't even understand what power was in the Ring.


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## Celebthôl (Apr 30, 2003)

yeah im with Arvedui on this, he was totally in the power of the ring.


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## BlackCaptain (Apr 30, 2003)

Once again this turns into the Ring? The Ring has different effects on different types of people. It's simple:
Sauron had the greatest will. Just check Ithrynluin's quotes


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## baragund (Apr 30, 2003)

I still don't think Gollum should be dismissed so readily. Here is some of Ithrynluin's quote from Letter #246:



> It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power. But this the Great had well considered and had rejected, as is seen in Elrond's words at the Council. Galadriel's rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve. In any case Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron: they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, until they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force.



Each of the Great was expected to fall for the same temptation to use the Ring, ultimately, to build themselves and empire. Gollum was unique in that he harbored no delusions of grandeur. For the 500 years that he had the Ring, and for the entire time he was plotting to take the Ring back from Frodo, Gollum only wanted the Ring close to him and to go off somewhere where he could be left alone with it. It was almost like a companion to him; a completely different relationship than what the others would have had. 

Well, if that argument doesn't hold any water with everybody, here's another possibility to chew on. How about Bilbo? I believe he is the only keeper of the Ring who had the will to *voluntarily* give it up? Even Frodo succumbed to it's temptation at Mt. Doom and he had it for a much shorter time than Bilbo.

Choices, choices....


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## YayGollum (May 1, 2003)

Ack! Crazy BlackCaptain person, have you not read that quote about Galadriel? Anyways, if we're suddenly swerving away from the people mentioned in the first post, then I'd have to go with Eru. I wish I could find that little letter where Tolkien talks about how cool Gollum's will was. oh well.


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## baragund (May 1, 2003)

Yay, Celebthol asked about the folks he mentioned in his first post plus anybody else in LOTR. As for Eru, I don't believe he comes into the LOTR story.


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## Ithrynluin (May 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by baragund _
> *Each of the Great was expected to fall for the same temptation to use the Ring, ultimately, to build themselves and empire. Gollum was unique in that he harbored no delusions of grandeur. *



And how does this relate to the idea of will power? We don't know about everything that was going on in Gollum's head. I'm pretty sure that some visions of greatness occured in his little head too - why wouldn't they? The temptations that occured to the wise and great could hardly be called "delusions of grandeur" IMHO, because they had the power to effect the visions.


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## Celebthôl (May 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *And how does this relate to the idea of will power? We don't know about everything that was going on in Gollum's head. I'm pretty sure that some visions of greatness occured in his little head too - why wouldn't they? The temptations that occured to the wise and great could hardly be called "delusions of grandeur" IMHO, because they had the power to effect the visions. *



things did happen in his little head, he imagined paying "them" all back etc and i cant find it right now but im sure there was a quote in TROTK where or possibly TTT where he mentions building an army and wotever...

and Eru doesnt count as he wasnt in LOTR and he everything he though just happened, so he was will.


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## YayGollum (May 1, 2003)

Crazy people. Eru = God. Even if people aren't always talking to him, he's still there.   Anyways, Tom Bombadil could still be Eru.   oh well. No big deal. I guess I'll go look for that cool quote about Gollum.


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## BlackCaptain (May 2, 2003)

''none but very few of equal stature could have hoped to withhold it from him. Of 'mortals' no one, not even Aragorn. In the contest with the Palantír Aragorn was the rightful owner. Also the contest took place at a distance, and in a tale which allows the incarnation of great spirits in a physical and destructible form their power must be far greater when actually physically present''

As posted by Ithrynluin.

I guess the only other competition now is Galadriel...


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## Helcaraxë (May 20, 2003)

While Sauron was certainly the most powerful being in M-E, he did not necessarily have the strongest will. Galadriel would be a contestant, and thus so would Elrond. But my vote would go with Gandalf. First: Galadriel was "unconquerable in resistance (in mind and spirit), but *incapable of punitive action*. In an offensive contest of wills, Galadriel would not be able to win. However, if it was defensive, she is "inconquerable in resistance." Still, Gandalf is a match for Galadriel. He says to Pippin something like "Dangerous? Of Course! And I am dangerous, more dangerous than anyone you will ever meet, unless you are brough before the lord of the black land himself!" Gandalf was never one to make idle boasts. Regardless, Maiar were capable of things elves were not (though I suppose that is power and not force of will). I suppose Gandalf vs. Galadriel depend on the circumstances.


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## Inderjit S (May 21, 2003)

Gandalf and Saruman had more power/stronger will then Elrond and Galadriel. This is shown by the fact they they had the mental strength to wield the ring, whilst Elrond and Galadriel couldn't wield it to it's full abilties for Sauron's enslavment.


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## Celebthôl (May 21, 2003)

I disagree, Elrond and Galadriel could wield the ring, but it would all end the same way, they would fall into darkness, and that is what would happen to Gandalf, but it would most likely be quicker for the Elves to fall then Gandalf...


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## Inderjit S (May 21, 2003)

> I disagree, Elrond and Galadriel could wield the ring, but it would all end the same way, they would fall into darkness, and that is what would happen to Gandalf, but it would most likely be quicker for the Elves to fall then Gandalf...



Err....no, Tolkien mentions in one of his letters that only Gandalf and Saruman could wield the ring succesfully. I'm not disputing whether or not they would turn evil-of course they would, but Gandalf and Saruman were the only ones who could weild the ring to it's full abilities, and enslave Sauron and make him their servant, so to speak.


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## Celebthôl (May 21, 2003)

Well i dont have his letters so there  im wrong again  anyways, they would still fall into shadow and become Dark Lords in Saurons stead right?

i'm sowwy Inderjit S


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## Inderjit S (May 21, 2003)

> anyways, they would still fall into shadow and become Dark Lords in Saurons stead right?



If they encountered Sauron then there wills wouldn't have the power to keep the ring and enslave him. 

Tolkein talks about what may happen in the 'foreword' to LoTR:



> ....the Ring would have been siezed and used against Sauron; he would not have been annihiliated but enslaved and Barad-dur would not have been destroyed but occupied



He later says Gandalf and Saruman were only capable of this. Though further down the 'foreword' he claims that Saruman may have learnt the secrets of making the ring and challenged the new ruler. Though this was if he based LoTR on WW2. 



> i'm sowwy Inderjit S



It's O.K I'm wrong more often then I'm right.


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## Ithrynluin (May 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Inderjit S _
> *Err....no, Tolkien mentions in one of his letters that only Gandalf and Saruman could wield the ring succesfully. I'm not disputing whether or not they would turn evil-of course they would, but Gandalf and Saruman were the only ones who could weild the ring to it's full abilities, and enslave Sauron and make him their servant, so to speak. *



He mentions that only Gandalf had chances for success in a *one on one* confrontation. Galadriel and Elrond would have built up great armies, and thus would have a chance at ousting Sauron. Undoubtedly so would Saruman.

I quoted the letter in question on the first page of the thread. Why didn't you two look at it?


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## Celebthôl (May 21, 2003)

Coz we're not to smart


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## Inderjit S (May 21, 2003)

Notice wield the ring to it's succesfully. I never said they couldn't wield it....As I said Saruman and Gandalf were the only one who would be able to completely enslave Sauron. Elrond/Galadriel may be able to defeat his armies but not the man, sorry Maia himself.


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## Ithrynluin (May 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Inderjit S _
> *Elrond/Galadriel may be able to defeat his armies but not the man, sorry Maia himself. *



You're saying that no matter how great an army and no matter how powerful the leader, a Maia can't be defeated by them?  
Or just that Elrond and Galadriel couldn't defeat him one on one? True, but does this really matter? The best leaders rarely appear in combat themselves anyway.


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## Inderjit S (May 21, 2003)

> Or just that Elrond and Galadriel couldn't defeat him one on one? True, but does this really matter? The best leaders rarely appear in combat themselves anyway.



But Sauron would never have been fully defeated without the destruction of his ring or his enslavment. What would happen if Galadriel and Elrond met him? Do you think they'd have the strenth of will to resist him?


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## Beleg (May 21, 2003)

> Do you think they'd have the strenth of will to resist him?



Well apparantly Gil-Galad and Elendil had, for they defeated (physically) him even with his ring.


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## Celebthôl (May 21, 2003)

It would have come down to who the better warrior was, it wasnt as if it would come down to a game of peanuts, Elrond would probibly chop him up or somthing  and Sauron would mush him with his mace


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## Ithrynluin (May 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Inderjit S _
> *But Sauron would never have been fully defeated without the destruction of his ring or his enslavment. What would happen if Galadriel and Elrond met him? Do you think they'd have the strenth of will to resist him? *



Why would they have to meet him? Sauron couldn't resist for ever. Once his armies were crushed, he would have been defeated. He poured much of his strength into the domination of his servants, and I doubt he'd prove to be the best of warriors.


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## Inderjit S (May 21, 2003)

I am NOT fully convinced mister.


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## Nautilus (Jun 4, 2003)

*Guess who...*

As I see, most people tend to think the character who resisted best to the One Ring's influence had the strongest will... and this puts most characters in a bad light: even Gandalf(one of the strongest Maiar) or Galadriel can't help themselves, what could be asked from a Man or a poor Hobbit?

But there is one character in the Fellowship who's will had never been curbed by the Ring, who, despite all challenges, stood firmly on his way, onwards to his ultimate goal. This character was no else than Samwise Gamgee.

Sam was the person who never doubted his mission or the Fellowships', who encouraged Frodo all the time, even when the Ringbearer's will seemed to fade entirely, who always stood on his path, undaunted. Sam even beared himself the Ring, and not only beared, but *used* it, at Cirith Ungol, just under Sauron's nose, and nothing happened to him - he simply returned the Ring to Frodo without question. He beared it even inside Mordor and still remained true, loyal to his goal. Where a brave warrior like Boromir failed shamefully, or a Maia like Gandalf feared, the little Hobbit was untouched. From this point of view, Sam Gamgee was one of the strongest-willed guys in the entire Middle-Earth!

~Regards,

Nautilus


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## Celebthôl (Jun 4, 2003)

But what about Gimli? Legolas? and Aragorn? not once in the book does it say they felt the urge to take the ring and its the same with the other Hobbits Merry and Pippin, they never try to take the ring, but none of these have a choise in staying with Frodo, only Sam did...


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## ely (Jun 17, 2003)

Well, I'm absolutely sure that every living creature in the Middle-Earth would have used the Ring eventually...

But I tend to think that Samwise Gamgee had the strongest will, because, as Nautilus already mentioned, he used the ring and gave it back without any reluctance.


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## Nautilus (Jun 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ely _
> *Well, I'm absolutely sure that every living creature in the Middle-Earth would have used the Ring eventually...*


* 

1. Gandalf didn't dare to touch the Ring, let aside using it.
2. Saruman got ensnared and brainwashed by the mere desire to have the Ring.
3. Galadriel didn't dare to take the Ring offered by Frodo.
4. Boromir got mad at the mere thought of the Ring.
5. Aragorn, Legolas & Gimli didn't attempt to take the Ring, but didn't dare to ask to use it either.
6. The other two Hobbits were not fully conscious of the Ring's utility.

And the list goes on....

I wonder, what could have happened if, instead asking Frodo to take the Ring into Mordor, Elrond & Gandalf would have trained Sam Gamgee into properly using it as a weapon against Sauron  maybe Middle-Earth was going to end with a Hobbit High King.

~Nautilus*


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## ely (Jun 17, 2003)

I guess I didn't express myself clearly, instead of saying that every living creature in the Middle-Earth would have used the Ring, I should have said that every living creature in the Middle-Earth would have fallen under the power of the Ring and/or used it eventually...




> _Originally posted by Nautilus _
> I wonder, what could have happened if, instead asking Frodo to take the Ring into Mordor, Elrond & Gandalf would have trained Sam Gamgee into properly using it as a weapon against Sauron  maybe Middle-Earth was going to end with a Hobbit High King.
> ~Nautilus



Well, the Ring couldn't have been used for good so Sam would have probably ended up as another slave of Sauron, and I don't think that it had been possible at all to destroy Sauron with his Ring for he had made it and was its only true master.

Beside, Elrond and Gandalf actually didn't ask Frodo to take the Ring into Mordor, and I'm not very sure what Sam would have thought about the idea of him using the Ring against Sauron...


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## syongstar (Jun 17, 2003)

*Galadriel*

Galadriel is the strongest because she was in Lothlorien,that is what she wanted.She bestowed freedom on all others.She did'nt want to conquer Sauron......only hold her peace and help others who are good fulfill their desires~~*~~


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## Helcaraxë (Jun 17, 2003)

That doesn't mean she had the strongest will (which I think most ppl here agree that she didn't), only that she was the most moral and peaceful.


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## Helcaraxë (Aug 23, 2003)

Anyway, I can't find the post so I can quote it, but someone said that the #1 power on the side of good in the first age was Melian, and in the third Galadriel. This is not at all true. Both Galadriel and Melian had very passive roles in the wars against the two dark lords. What did they really DO? It was probably Turgon or one of the other Noldorin kings who was the mightiest bulwark against evil in the first age, and Gandalf of Aragorn in the second.


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## Ithrynluin (Aug 23, 2003)

There were many powers in both the First and the Third Ages.

Melian was the single most powerful entity on the side of good in the First Age. She kept Morgoth's evil at bay, otherwise it would have permeated Doriath and spread southwards. All the princes had VERY important roles as well, as did Círdan, and the Dwarves.

The main force on the side of good in the Third Age is actually Gandalf. Others follow...

Just because Melian and Galadriel didn't parade around with a sword in Sauron's/Melkor's face does not mean they did little or nothing. They held mighty bastions of strength against the enemy - places of power and healing, and they fought with the enemy from afar, and ever strove to counter his plans.


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## Iarwain (Sep 1, 2003)

I would have to say it's a tie between Tom Bombadil, Gandalf, and Galadriel.


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## Khôr’nagan (Sep 1, 2003)

I definitely think Galadriel had the greatest/strongest will. Heck, she's one of the oldest Elves in th world. Sauron is evil, and evil will is easily distorted by hate and anger. Good inherently has a greater potence, and Galadriel is about half as old as the world itself. And, might I add, that's many thousands of years. I once heard she was something like 12,000 years old, and that sounds about right to me.


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## Iarwain (Sep 1, 2003)

Will ( n.)

1.)The mental faculty by which one deliberately chooses or decides upon a course of action: championed freedom of will against a doctrine of predetermination. 
The act of exercising the will. 

2.)Diligent purposefulness; determination: an athlete with the will to win. 
3.)Self-control; self-discipline: lacked the will to overcome the addiction. 
4.)A desire, purpose, or determination, especially of one in authority: It is the sovereign's will that the prisoner be spared. 
5.)Deliberate intention or wish: Let it be known that I took this course of action against my will. 
6.)Free discretion; inclination or pleasure: wandered about, guided only by will. 
7.)Bearing or attitude toward others; disposition: full of good will. 

8.)A legal declaration of how a person wishes his or her possessions to be disposed of after death. 
A legally executed document containing this declaration.


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## Gothmog (Sep 1, 2003)

I am not posting any view as to who had the greater will. however, I have been reading through this thread and noted that Twice it has been stated that Gandalf did not or would not Touch the Ring.

Celebthôl


> secondly Gandalf never ever ever touched the ring, if he had done he would have become a bearer and would not have given it up.



Nautilus


> 1. Gandalf didn't dare to touch the Ring, let aside using it.



Just a reminder about this point.


> 'It has everything to do with it,' said Gandalf. 'You do not know the real peril yet; but you shall. I was not sure of it myself when I was last here; but the time has come to speak. *Give me the ring for a moment*.'
> 
> Frodo took it from his breeches-pocket, where it was clasped to a chain that hung from his belt. He unfastened it and handed it slowly to the wizard. It felt suddenly very heavy, as if either it or Frodo himself was in some way reluctant for Gandalf to touch it.
> *Gandalf held it up*. It looked to be made of pure and solid gold. 'Can you see any markings on it?' he asked.
> ...


 The Fellowship of the Ring: book 1: Chapter 2: The Shadow of the Past.

Gandalf did indeed touch the Ring. He did so first to throw it in the fire and the second time to hand it back to Frodo after removing it from the fire.


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## Khôr’nagan (Sep 2, 2003)

Quite true. Gandalf had both the strength to use the Ring and the will to bend it to his own uses. He had the opportunity to become great and powerful. He was even _offered_ the One Ring, but he refused. But not only did he refuse, he refused with strength of heart and passion, being fully in control of himself and totally and utterly ignoring the call of the Ring. I was actually on the edge of who to pick, Galadriel or Gandalf. In my mind, those two had the most strength of will, but I was unsure about which one more than the other. They were both offered the One Ring, and they both refused it.


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