# What was the biggest cause of tragedies in Turin Turambar's life?



## Turin_Turambar (Aug 5, 2022)

This question is a much discussed topic among Tolkien scholars and fans alike. What do you think was the worst influence on Turin's life? I think that Turin's stubbornness and arrogance was a bigger problem than Morgoth's curse. If Turin had returned to Doriath or had followed the advice of the Elves, I think his life would have been much better off despite Morgoth's curse.


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## d4rk3lf (Aug 5, 2022)

Perhaps, that he was so impatient? 
If he only had a little more patience, many bad thing wouldn't happened to him, and yeah, I could agreed that was also stubbornness and arrogance, but impatience leads him to become like that.


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## Turin_Turambar (Aug 5, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> Perhaps, that he was so impatient?
> If he only had a little more patience, many bad thing wouldn't happened to him, and yeah, I could agreed that was also stubbornness and arrogance, but impatience leads him to become like that.


I think stubbornness underlies his impatience. Throughout the story, he did not listen to anyone, including the elven kings. Because he found his own ideas more correct. And he paid a heavy price for it.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 5, 2022)

Turin_Turambar said:


> This question is a much discussed topic among Tolkien scholars and fans alike. What do you think was the worst influence on Turin's life? I think that Turin's stubbornness and arrogance was a bigger problem than Morgoth's curse. If Turin had returned to Doriath or had followed the advice of the Elves, I think his life would have been much better off despite Morgoth's curse.


I agree with you.

I think it was his rather obnoxious pride and stubbornness that cause the downfall of many things in his life. For indeed pride it was that drove him to distrust in the Elves. The curse of Morgoth was a hideous blow upon him indeed, but had he harbored patience, acceptance, and humility, he would have been able to grow stronger through it, and he may have had a life far greater.

Arrogance and pride I feel are the root cause of everything for him, and a pity indeed it is that such things he harbored.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 5, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Arrogance and pride I feel are the root cause of everything for him, and a pity indeed it is that such things he harbored.


Indeed it was also for Féanaro, was it not?


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 5, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> Indeed it was also for Féanaro, was it not?


It was indeed.


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## Baron (Aug 5, 2022)

So I chose the lies of Glaurung, I was torn between that and Turin's stubbornness and arrogance. My goodness he was stubborn though!


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## Radaghast (Aug 5, 2022)

Túrin Turambar is his own greatest enemy. Simply by acting rationally, an not pridefully, he could have thwarted Morgoth's schemes at practically every step.


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## Baron (Aug 5, 2022)

Absolutely, his rashness to act! He made all the wrong choices! One of the greatest tales in my opinion.


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## Eljorahir (Aug 5, 2022)

Morgoth to Hurin:
"Behold! The shadow of my thought shall lie upon them wherever they go, and my hate shall pursue them to the ends of the world."

Hurin to Morgoth:
"You speak in vain. For you cannot see them, nor govern them from afar: not while you keep this shape, and desire still to be a king visible on earth."

Was it the curse which caused Beleg to accidentally poke Turin's foot while cutting him free (leading to Beleg's death by Turin)?

Was it the curse which caused Turin to unknowingly sit at Saeros's accustomed seat at the dinner table (leading to Saeros's death)?

The exchange between Morgoth and Hurin suggests that initially Hurin did not believe Morgoth's curse had any meaning. Although, at the end of his life I think Hurin came to believe otherwise.

On my next read-through of The Children of Hurin, I'll have to keep this question in mind: "Did the curse itself have any real effects on Turin?" I'll probably conclude that there's no way to know for sure. (That's the trouble with curses...you never really know.)


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 5, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> Túrin Turambar is his own greatest enemy. Simply by acting rationally, an not pridefully, he could have thwarted Morgoth's schemes at practically every step.


This is so true.


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## Radaghast (Aug 6, 2022)

Let's not forget that Túrin kills two innocents. One, Beleg, by accident, but a product of his hotheadedness and impulsiveness (kill first, regret that decision later). The other, Brandir, due to spiteful rage (and calls him "Clubfoot" before committing the foul deed to boot).

This removes any sense of sympathy I might have had for Túrin and I fail to see why he should be the slayer of Morgoth in Dagor Dagorath (whether that was meant to be canon or not). If you ask me, the logical choice is Húrin.


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## Turin_Turambar (Aug 6, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> Let's not forget that Túrin kills two innocents. One, Beleg, by accident, but a product of his hotheadedness. The other, Brandir, due to spiteful rage (and calls him "Clubfoot" before committing the foul deed to boot).
> 
> This removes any sense of sympathy I might have had for Túrin and I fail to see why he should be the slayer of Morgoth in Dagor Dagorath (whether that was meant to be canon or not). If you ask me, the logical choice is Húrin.


oh my dear friend turin is the murderer of morgoth but everyone on this site on the internet and everywhere else thinks that turin didn't kill morgoth alone and got the help of tulkas. turin just delivers the last fatal blow. tulkas and turin defeated morgoth together. so it's not actually a one on one fight like fingolfin. so Turin slaying Morgoth is no great feat.


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## Radaghast (Aug 6, 2022)

Not really the point of my post, but sure.

Btw, I changed my vote from "his wrong decisions" to "his stubbornness and arrogance" since the former were caused by the latter. They go hand in hand.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 6, 2022)

Turin_Turambar said:


> oh my dear friend turin is the murderer of morgoth but everyone on this site on the internet and everywhere else thinks that turin didn't kill morgoth alone and got the help of tulkas. turin just delivers the last fatal blow. tulkas and turin defeated morgoth together. so it's not actually a one on one fight like fingolfin. so Turin slaying Morgoth is no great feat.


Good points.


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## Gothmog (Aug 9, 2022)

Eljorahir said:


> Morgoth to Hurin:
> "Behold! The shadow of my thought shall lie upon them wherever they go, and my hate shall pursue them to the ends of the world."
> 
> Hurin to Morgoth:
> ...


The "curse of Morgoth" is in the same category as "Fate". It is a set of conditions imposed by others on a person. However, "Free-will" allows that person to have different answers as to how S/he deals with it. In Arda, the Free-will of Man is in fact more powerful than the Curse of Morgoth or the Music of the Ainur. So the choices of Turin Turamabar were the greatest bane of his own life. Each time the Curse caused some difficulty to him he could have chosen a different path and confounded Morgoth completely. Turin chose the name Turamabar and could have proven his power over Morgoth but instead kept choosing the wrong path due to his stubbornness and ended as "_A Túrin Turambar turun ambartanen:_ master of doom by doom mastered!"


Turin_Turambar said:


> oh my dear friend turin is the murderer of morgoth but everyone on this site on the internet and everywhere else thinks that turin didn't kill morgoth alone and got the help of tulkas. turin just delivers the last fatal blow. tulkas and turin defeated morgoth together. so it's not actually a one on one fight like fingolfin. so Turin slaying Morgoth is no great feat.


Turin is not the murderer or killer or any other type of death dealer of Morgoth Bauglir. He has not returned to fight in the Dagor Dagorath. There has been no Dagor Dagorath as all that you claim is only part of a Prophecy (which may or may not be accurate). A prophecy is something that is foretold to happen in the future. Dagor Dagorath is a battle at the end of the time of Arda. According to JRR Tolkien, we are living in Arda.


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## Eljorahir (Aug 9, 2022)

Gothmog said:


> The "curse of Morgoth" is in the same category as "Fate". It is a set of conditions imposed by others on a person. However, "Free-will" allows that person to have different answers as to how S/he deals with it. In Arda, the Free-will of Man is in fact more powerful than the Curse of Morgoth or the Music of the Ainur. So the choices of Turin Turamabar were the greatest bane of his own life. Each time the Curse caused some difficulty to him he could have chosen a different path and confounded Morgoth completely. Turin chose the name Turamabar and could have proven his power over Morgoth but instead kept choosing the wrong path due to his stubbornness and ended as "_A Túrin Turambar turun ambartanen:_ master of doom by doom mastered!"


A very thought-provoking response...thanks.


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## Baron (Aug 9, 2022)

Turin because he is deeply flawed makes me love his character more, he is human, makes bad decisions, doesn't learn from his mistakes, stubborn, just like me! 
Difference is I would run a mile from Glaurung 🤣


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 9, 2022)

Baron said:


> Difference is I would run a mile from Glaurung 🤣


You wouldn't fight it?


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 9, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> You wouldn't fight it?


If he did, he'd fall. Would that such Fate not befall him!


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 9, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> If he did, he'd fall. Would that such Fate not befall him!


Have you no hope? I think that Baron would be a match for him-- with aid from the Valar (of course)!


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 10, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Have you no hope? I think that Baron would be a match for him-- with aid from the Valar (of course)!


Perhaps. Yet still, it shall be a feat of difficulty and much hardship, for the creatures of Morgoth are not so swiftly felled.


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## Elthir (Aug 10, 2022)

Gothmog said:


> There has been no Dagor Dagorath as all that you [*Turin Turambar*] claim is only part of a Prophecy (which may or may not be accurate).



*"The Second Prophecy of Mandos (V. 333) had now therefore definitively disappeared."* Christopher Tolkien, Morgoth's Ring

Christopher Tolkien is usually taken pretty seriously with respect to his father's work, and indeed this statement is backed up by description from JRRT himself. For example, see the conclusion to _Quenta Silmarillion_ (1977 Silmarillion) with respect to what Mandos does _*not*_ declare.

In short, in the revised scenario, Mandos makes no such prophecy.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 10, 2022)

Elthir said:


> *"The Second Prophecy of Mandos (V. 333) had now therefore definitively disappeared."*.


_Not yet in my heart and féa._


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## Elthir (Aug 10, 2022)

Distinction: abandoning the Second Prophecy of Mandos is not the same thing as abandoning the Dagor Dagorath or Arda Healed.

It was the _prophecy_ -- uttered by a "god" -- that was abandoned by JRRT. There are other factors to consider here, but for now, this is why Christopher Tolkien can be so definitive about (a part of) a
somewhat complicated matter.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 10, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> _Not yet in my heart and féa._


You really do have a great deal of faith in Namo, and his prophecies, but why?


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 10, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> You really do have a great deal of faith in Namo, and his prophecies, but why?


_Why, you ask? Because Námo's prophecies are ne'er inaccurate, or at least it hath seemed. Ne'er shall they be lost, e'en if they seem forgotten._


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## Gothmog (Aug 10, 2022)

Elthir said:


> *"The Second Prophecy of Mandos (V. 333) had now therefore definitively disappeared."* Christopher Tolkien, Morgoth's Ring
> 
> Christopher Tolkien is usually taken pretty seriously with respect to his father's work, and indeed this statement is backed up by description from JRRT himself. For example, see the conclusion to _Quenta Silmarillion_ (1977 Silmarillion) with respect to what Mandos does _*not*_ declare.
> 
> In short, in the revised scenario, Mandos makes no such prophecy.


However, I was simply pointing out that Turin_Turambar keeps using the Dagor Dagorath as something that has already happened whereas it does not matter if it was a Doom of Mandos or a prophecy by Adreth as he as also hinted at, it is still a Prophecy and something that is in the future if it happens at all. So claiming that Turin has killed Melkor is wrong.


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## Elthir (Aug 10, 2022)

I'd guess that some folks would raise the idea that a prophecy _from Mandos himself _is likely to come true, and running on from there, essentially treat it as "fact" in any case.

1) What do any of the Valar say about the End Times?
2) What do the Elves believe about the End Times?
3) Are there any Mannish myths about the End Times?

In a sense, for _Quenta Silmarillion_ at least, Tolkien revises the "answer" to the first question: Mandos will *not* declare if any change will come to Arda Marred, and Manwe and Varda may know: *"but they have not revealed it."*

And even Andreth does not prophecy about the End Times.


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## Gothmog (Aug 10, 2022)

Elthir said:


> I'd guess that some folks would raise the idea that a prophecy _from Mandos himself _is likely to come true, and running on from there, essentially treat it as "fact" in any case.
> 
> 1) What do any of the Valar say about the End Times?
> 2) What do the Elves believe about the End Times?
> ...


It does not matter if a prophecy is certain to happen, treating it as already happened is still wrong. Claiming that something *has* happened when there is no indication of how long it is before the prophecy comes to fruition means that I can spend as much money as I want now because it has been prophesied I will win the lottery. Even if it was a Doom of Mandos, it is not commanded by Eru and also involves Man therefore is not immutable. The Music is as Fate to all except Eru and Men.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 10, 2022)

Well this has strayed from the topic...


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 10, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Well this has strayed from the topic...


And by _Námo's influence _it has! What a rarity!


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## Elthir (Aug 10, 2022)

Gothmog said:


> It does not matter if a prophecy is certain to happen, treating it as already happened is still wrong.



I wasn't defending *Turin_Turambar's* position (*if* it is his position, see below), or anyone else who takes it -- but merely noting that some will no doubt (as I've seen over the years) treat the Prophecy as fact because it is Mandos.

*And I'm adding (have added) that there is no Second Prophecy from Mandos in any case!*

And, was *Turin_Turambar* actually claiming that the _Battle of Battles_ has already happened (in the post you responded to in this thread), or was he simply using language that makes it seem that way, because he appears to treat the Prophecy as a fact.

Or something else!


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 10, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> And by _Námo's influence _it has! What a rarity!


_That is rare indeed!_


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 10, 2022)

Elthir said:


> Or something else!


Can we talk about Khamul?


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## Erestor Arcamen (Aug 10, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Can we talk about Khamul?


I hear Balrogs have wings


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 11, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> I hear Balrogs have wings


THAT is a controversial topic...


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## Gothmog (Aug 11, 2022)

Elthir said:


> I wasn't defending *Turin_Turambar's* position (*if* it is his position, see below), or anyone else who takes it -- but merely noting that some will no doubt (as I've seen over the years) treat the Prophecy as fact because it is Mandos.
> 
> *And I'm adding (have added) that there is no Second Prophecy from Mandos in any case!*
> 
> ...


Perhaps you should read it again


Turin_Turambar said:


> oh my dear friend turin is the murderer of morgoth but everyone on this site on the internet and everywhere else thinks that turin didn't kill morgoth alone and got the help of tulkas. turin just delivers the last fatal blow. tulkas and turin defeated morgoth together. so it's not actually a one on one fight like fingolfin. so Turin slaying Morgoth is no great feat.


As you can see, Turin_Turambar states quite clearly "turin is the murderer", "everyone on this site on the internet and everywhere else thinks that turin didn't kill", "tulkas and turin defeated morgoth together."
To consider the prophecy as "Fact" you also have to consider that the prophecy is in the "Future" and the words used would reflect this. "turing will be", "turin will kill", "turin will defeat". Turin_Turambar's words clearly are those of something that happened in the past and therefore of a prophecy that has already been fulfilled. Despite your continued statements about the second prophecy of Mandos being removed by JRRT this is not the first time this point has been used in this same manner.

I will add that ALL languages are "made up" but communication depends on the mutual agreement of the meaning of individual words. To quote another character "That word you are using *I* don't think it means what *you* think it means".


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 11, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> THAT is a controversial topic...


_Would that such a topic not be spoken of again until Fading Bound of Time's Last End..._


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## Elthir (Aug 12, 2022)

Gothmog said:


> Perhaps you should read it again



I had read it again -- which is why I said *Turin_Turambar *"seems" to be talking about the Dagor Dagorath as if it has already happened (meaning that he does write that way, but perhaps does
not really think this).



Gothmog said:


> I will add that ALL languages are "made up" but communication depends on the mutual agreement of the meaning of individual words. To quote another character "That word you are using *I* don't think it means what *you* think it means".



I'm just giving him the benefit of the doubt -- that by treating the prophecy as a fact, * Turin_Turambar* _might_ simply be employing a tense that is technically off.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 12, 2022)

The Tale of Too Many Turins.

Did one of them at least _live _in Turin? 🤔


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 12, 2022)

Hmm... I will have to ponder this one..


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## Elthir (Aug 12, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Did one of them at least _live _in Turin? 🤔



That place with (as the story goes anyway) the Nietzsche/horse incident.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 12, 2022)

Hmm. Very intriguing. I'll have to research that for certain.


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## Elthir (Aug 12, 2022)

Emphasis on _story_ -- I read at least on article about Nietzsche/Turin/the horse which claims the facts surrounding this tale are thin.

Interesting though!


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 12, 2022)

It does sound interesting indeed!


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## Gothmog (Aug 12, 2022)

Elthir said:


> I had read it again -- which is why I said *Turin_Turambar *"seems" to be talking about the Dagor Dagorath as if it has already happened (meaning that he does write that way, but perhaps does
> not really think this).
> 
> 
> ...


And I am just pointing out to him that even if it was Mandos himself that made the prophecy, it was still something that was only foretold to occur in the future and not something that has already happened.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 12, 2022)

True. Mandos was predicting that which would come to pass, not speaking of that which already had, and not changing Time itself into his own design.


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## Elthir (Aug 13, 2022)

Gothmog said:


> To consider the prophecy as "Fact" you also have to consider that the prophecy is in the "Future" and the words used would reflect this. "turing will be", "turin will kill", "turin will defeat".



*Turin_Turumbar* wrote (for examples):

*"In dagor dagorath, turin turambar is the one who will kill melkor."* Oct 13 2021

*"one is the one who will kill the melkor* [Turin] *and the other is the one who leaves the melkor lame.* [Fingolfin]" May 8th 2021

*"but in the battle of dagor dagorath it is turin who will kill the melkor.*" May9 2021

(and in response to: "Good would triumph over evil. Manwe would win.") *"Of course what you say this will happen in Dagor Dagorath."* Jan 26th 2022

And yes, in plenty of other posts he uses a tense as if the events of the Prophecy have already occurred (sometimes in the same post as the "will statements"), but again I'm willing to give folks the benefit of the doubt on this topic, especially those who have noted. . .

*"my native language is not english but the term "defeat" is used for turin on the internet against melkor.**" *March 26 2022


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## Gothmog (Aug 13, 2022)

Elthir said:


> *Turin_Turumbar* wrote (for examples):
> 
> *"In dagor dagorath, turin turambar is the one who will kill melkor."* Oct 13 2021
> 
> ...


I see. So it is my way of debating a particular post is what is at fault. It also seems that I am likely to run into this issue in the future if I continue posting on here. The simplest answer then is that I will cease to do so. Farewell.


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## Elthir (Aug 15, 2022)

*Gothmog*, you posted a reasonable reaction based on a given post . . . I've just pointed out that our friend Turin has also said "will" in other posts . . . so the matter *might* not be that he thinks that these events have already occurred.

Maybe he does think so. *Turin* hasn't weighed in . . . I'm not even sure he himself cares!

Are you actually leaving the forums?

And if I have annoyed you here -- it can't be for the first time 

Heck, half my posts are nonsense, one third are incoherent, and the other two thirds are largely to annoy Gando . . . and these fail at even that!

*Just kidding Gando. The actual numbers are much smaller *


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 15, 2022)

Elthir said:


> half my posts are nonsense, one third are incoherent


_Sayeth this not! For I am sure the Valar understands well thy ways! _


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 15, 2022)

Elthir said:


> the other two thirds are largely to annoy Gando


Hey, how about me? Don't you want to annoy me? 😥

(Sigh) OK --guess I'll go drown my sorrows in 🥓.

And 🍳


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## Ent (Aug 15, 2022)

Elthir said:


> *Gothmog*, you made a reasonable assumption based on a given post . . . I've just pointed out that our friend Turin has also said "will" in other posts . . . so the matter *might* not be that he thinks that these events have already occurred.
> 
> Maybe he does think so. *Turin* hasn't weighed in . . . I'm not even sure he himself cares!
> 
> ...



RE: @Gothmog and his potential departure - And so we see once again how "little things can become big things" and intents and meanings are so easily misconstrued, through this medium of the 'typed word.' 

We can hope he returns, and does not vanish into the deep pits of the earth where his thoughts and input will no longer be available.


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## Elthir (Aug 15, 2022)

Isn't it supposed to be "drown" not down . . . and if that's annoying -- then you're welcome *S-ES!

 *


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 15, 2022)

Curse thee, Autocorrect! 🤬


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 15, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> (Sigh) OK --guess I'll go drown my sorrows in 🥓.


Seems like a good place to start-- for consolation, before you turn to Nienna.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 15, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Seems like a good place to start-- for consolation, before you turn to Nienna.


_Or to me._


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 15, 2022)

Not to worry-- I'm always prepared.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 15, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Not to worry-- I'm always prepared.
> View attachment 14992


_Good - we don't have that thing in Valinor._


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 15, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> _Or to me._


_You may also._


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## Elassar (Sep 3, 2022)

It cannot be anything accept the curse of morgoth that was the very beginning of the misfortune of the children of hurin.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 3, 2022)

Could it have been his stubbornness and arrogance?


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## Radaghast (Sep 3, 2022)

Maybe the argument there is that Morgoth's curse caused Túrin's life choices? 😶


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## Elassar (Sep 3, 2022)

But that is what has stemmed his misfortune and it said the biggest cause that is a cause but not the biggest in my eyes



Radaghast said:


> Maybe the argument there is that Morgoth's curse caused Túrin's life choices? 😶


Agreed


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 3, 2022)

The Icelandic word for a short story translates as "thread", and the sagas, which Tolkien studied, are made up of a number of threads woven together. Gandalf makes use of this metaphor, when he tells Theoden "There are children in your land, who, out of the twisted threads of story, could pick the answer to your question."

Tolkien uses the technique of weaving threads throughout his works; I'd say this is an example. Many "threads" come together in the story of Turin.


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## norrinradd (Sep 28, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Can we talk about Khamul?


I guess you have no other source of entertainment. You make fun of the threads I opened about "_Khamûl_" in such comments. Is it compatible with love of Tolkien (and his works) to make fun of a forum member trying to go into the details of a character created by Tolkien? I don’t think so.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 28, 2022)

Sorry. But I _was _replying to Elthir. You know what that's like.


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## Elthir (Sep 29, 2022)

I've responded to me several times. It never goes well 

But hey! I didn't bring up _Khamûl_ in this thread (at least) . . . I *did* bring up the _Nietzsche/horse incident/possible myth_ for some reason . . . but someone had to*!*

Or something else.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 29, 2022)

Of course.


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## Elthir (Sep 29, 2022)

That horse was innocent, by the way!


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 29, 2022)

I'd say his biggest tragedy were times where things went wrong that weren't actually his fault. Stabbing Beleg, for instance, wasn't intended to harm BELEG.


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## Elthir (Sep 29, 2022)

Also,* norrinradd *(Silver Surfer, yes?), I apologize if any of my past comments about _Khamûl _threads have made you feel that you were being made fun of. I can't recall everything said, but _I hope_ I assumed that you were not annoyed by it [maybe by the way you responded, or didn't respond] . . . but as I shouldn't have _assumed_ in any case, again, *apologies*.


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