# Would Elves Eventually Die?



## JPMaximilian (Feb 27, 2020)

Since Elves were not given the gift of men and are bound to Arda, if Arda would eventually end, would the Elves (and perhaps even the Valar) die (that is leave the confines of Arda)?

Related to this question, would humans and elves ever be reunited after the ending of Arda? For example, Elrond goes over the sea to the undying lands and Arwen dies (leaving Arda). Perhaps at the ending of the world, when Arda ends, Elrond and Arwen would see each other again beyond the confines of Arda?

The alternative seems to be that when Arda ends, then the Valar and Eldar would cease to exist in any form. This doesn't seem "right" to me.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Feb 27, 2020)

Tolkien wrote of the Dagor Dagorath or "Battle of Battles." This goes into what would happen at the end of Arda: 



> Thus spake Mandos in prophecy, when the Gods sat in judgement in Valinor, and the rumour of his words was whispered among all the Elves of the West. When the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth, seeing that the guard sleepeth, shall come back through the Door of Night out of the Timeless Void; and destroy the Sun and Moon. But Eärendil shall descend upon him as a white and searing flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the *Last Battle* be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Eönwë, and on his left Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin, returning from the Doom of Men at the ending of the world; and the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Húrin and all Men be avenged.
> Thereafter shall Earth be broken and re-made, and the Silmarils shall be recovered out of Air and Earth and Sea; for Eärendil shall descend and surrender that flame which he hath had in keeping. Then Fëanor shall take the Three Jewels and he will break them and with their fire Yavanna will rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth. And the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the Light shall go out over all the world.



but according to Christopher, his father abandoned it. Another part of that quote was two sentences that Tolkien had crossed out:



> In that light the Gods will grow young again, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Ilúvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy of Mandos doth not speak, and no Man it names, save Túrin only, and to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar.



This thread goes into the Mannish Tradition aspect of the Silmarillion. But what is canon I think was that elves that remain in Middle Earth would eventually fade where their Fëar (or soul) would eventually consume their bodies and they would become fully spirit. From there, they would be sent to the Halls of Mandos like the elves that died.

I humbly believe that I probably got some of this wrong, and if I did, other more knowledgeable members will correct me.


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## Elthir (Feb 27, 2020)

My short-ish answer: with respect to the "ultimate" death of Elves, Tolkien noted (in a letter): "But what "the end of the world" portended for it or for themselves they did not know (though they no doubt had theories). Neither had they of course any special information concerning what "death" portended for Men. They believed that it meant "liberation from the circles of the world", and was in that respect to them enviable." 

Some theories are presented in parts of _Morgoth's Ring_, including Finrod's theory in the Athrabeth. Finrod not only speaks of his vision of the Elves living on with Men after the Great End, but describes _estel_ to Andreth -- all before he learns of the Old Hope (the belief that Eru will enter his creation and so on) -- stating that_ este_l does not come from experience, nor will it be defeated by the ways of the world. Finrod says...

_"If we are indeed the Eruhin, the Children of the One, then He will not suffer Himself to be deprived of His own, not by any Enemy, not even by ourselves. This is the last foundation of Estel, which we keep even when we contemplate the End: of all His designs the issue must be for His Children's joy. Amdir you have not, you say. Does no estel at all abide?"_

Finrod to Andreth, _Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth_, Morgoth's Ring


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## the--hobbit (Mar 12, 2020)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> Tolkien wrote of the Dagor Dagorath or "Battle of Battles." This goes into what would happen at the end of Arda:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great analysis. Thanks


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