# Why did Saruman turn Evil?



## Arebeth

I suppose there might be a thread about that question yet, but I couldn't find it so I'm starting one.



> We know he was great, powerful, wise, [...] once. But what we don't know is when he began to change.



(Well, I think it's something like that)
Does anybody know?

I'm quite sure he was thinking of his own interests when he decided that the Council of Nine should not look for the Ring. And obviously he joined Sauron when he realised he couldn't get it alone.
But when (and why) did he finally become a victim of its power?


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## FoolOfATook

> I'm quite sure he was thinking of his own interests when he decided that the Council of Nine should not look for the Ring.



Hey, he wasn't elected! I think you mean the White Council.


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## Flammifer

Yeah FOAT's right about the White Council thing, but yeah Elrond says at the Council:



> It is perilous to study too deeply in the arts of the Enemy, for good or ill



--- LotR, FotR, "The Council of Elrond"

Obviously Saruman studied too deeply. Also this stuff from Appendix B, "The Tale of Years" might be of some help:

*2850* - Gandalf again enters Dol Guldur, and discovers that its master is indeed Sauron, who is gathering to him all the Rings and seeking for news of the One, and of Isildur's Heir.

*2851* - The White Council meets. Gandalf urges an attack on Dol Guldur. Saruman overrules him. _(It afterwards became clear that Saruman had then begun to desire to possess the One Ring himself, and hoped that it might reveal itself, seeking its master, if Sauron were let be for a time.)_ Saruman begins to search near the Gladden Fields.

*2939* - Saruman discovers that Sauron's servants are searching the Anduin near Gladden Fields, and that Sauron therefore has learned of Isildur's end. He is alarmed, but says nothing to the Council.

*2941* - The White Council meets; Saruman agrees to an attack on Dol Guldur, since he now wished to prevent Sauron from searching the River. Sauron having made his plans abandons Dol Guldur.

*2953* - Last meeting of the White Council. They debate the Rings. Saruman feigns that he has discovered the One Ring has passed down Anduin to the Sea. Saruman withdraws to Isengard, which he takes as his own, and fortifies it. Being jealous and afraid of Gandalf he sets spies to watch all his movements; and notes his interest in the Shire.

*C 3000* - The shadow of Mordor lengthens. Saruman dares to use the _palantir_ or Orthanc, and becomes ensnared by Sauron...He [Saruman] becomes a traitor to the Council.

I hope this sheds some light on the matter........it seems that it was around year 2851 that Saruman really began to lust for the Ring. Then he really became evil when he used the _palantir_ and became a *traitor ot the Council*.


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## Arebeth

> _Originally posted by FoolOfATook _
> *I think you mean the White Council.  *



Well, obviously I was... Sorry for that...


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## Gandalf White

And on top of this it was all a process, taking some time, obviously. Saruman never really decided all at once to become evil, but just took the next step and next step and next step...and BOOM, it had him.


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## jimmyboy

Saruman/Curunir was already compromised in his character, if not truly evil, before he even came to Middle-earth as one of the Istari. We know that as soon as Minthrandir landed on the shores of M-E, Cirdan gave him his ring of power, the Ring of Fire. It was this event (approx. 1000 TA) that began Curunir's envy and jealousy of Mithrandir, and it continued to increase as time and events developed during the third age.

But even before that, when the Istari were being chosen by the Valar, we see the arrogance Curunir has for Radagast, as is mentioned in "Unfinished Tales": "...it is possible to see a hint of the story of Radagast's unwelcome company in Saruman's extreme scorn for him..."

So really, I'd say he was rotten from the beginning, and it's notable that in the same part of UT, it is said that both Sauron and Curunir were possibly of Aule's Maiar; in other words, they were in a way "related" to each other, being servants to the same Vala.


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## Arebeth

And do you believe in the "Saru-man means Sauron as a man" theory? I've read some stuff about it, and it said that: Saruman just does what Sauron does but in a smaller scale? (The Two Towers, of course, but also that Sauron tries to destroy Middle-Earth and Saruman tries to destroy the Shire,...)


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## jimmyboy

> And do you believe in the "Saru-man means Sauron as a man" theory?


Er, no. I've never heard of that before, but I don't like it. Blech! Bad idea.


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## meneldor

basically sarumans arrogance by looking through the palantir of orthanac. done deal.


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