# Did Dwarves do Agriculture?



## Tar-Surion (Jul 25, 2008)

Hi, welcome to my first thread. Hope you enjoy it.

I have always wondered about how the Dwarves maintained themselves apart from metal-working and mining; after all they had to eat.

There are no references that I am aware of of Dwarves growing their own food. They don't seem to be all that agricultural.

If so they would have depended on others to grow their food for them, and it is interesting I think that in many cases Dwarf mansions were located in mountains close to other communites: Blue Mountains/Elf Kingdoms, Moria/Hollin, Lonely Mountain/Laketown, perhaps even Iron Mountains/Easterlings. Dwarf mansions that didn't follow this pattern seemed to be unsuccessful or minor. 

If this is true the Dwarves were in symbiotic relationships with their food-producers for whom they manufactured various things, including weapons and toys.

There are two outcomes of all this. One is that Dwarf populations were rather small and had little scope for growth as they had no means of increasing their food supply. The other is that their very existence was dependent on other people and vulnerable to siege.

If this is so the War of the Elves and Sauron would have been a dire blow to Khazad-dum. Thousands must have starved or fled when their Noldorian food-growers were slain or driven off by the Dark Lord. They could have obtained some supplies from the vale of the Anduin, but so far as we know this region, for centuries on the front line between the Dark Lord and his enemies, was never densely populated, and farming it would have been a very risky business in the Dark Years.

Perhaps they were able to procure supplies from the gardens of the Entwives in exchange for high-quality Entwife-sized agricultural implements, or jewelry and adornments of one sort or another. The Entwives were, after all, female.

Thus although they were "too valiant to be overthrown from without" the Dwarves of Moria may have experienced a severe population-crash as a result of Sauron's devastation of Hollin.

The obverse of all this is that agricultural communities close to a Dwarf mansion would have been very well-armed and extremely formidable in war and for this reason would have welcomed the presence of the Khazad.

Thoughts?


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## chrysophalax (Jul 25, 2008)

Greetings, Tar-Surion. It's nice to see different topics for a change!

As a Dragon, I can honestly say that I've only ever considered Dwarves as roughage in my diet, not how said roughage became so...rough. 

Seeing as they tend to favour a diet consisting mostly of beer, meat and grains, one can surmise that they traded for their grain and hunted for the rest. Also, being practical folk, it stands to reason that they prepared for all contingencies by hording stores of _cram_ and such-like in case of attack, poor harvests, or failed diplomacy.

As to your comment about the Entwives. *blink* Would you trade with, or even come close to some axe-weilding short person who looks nothing like an Elf, that doesn't even speak your language, if you were made out of something that is potential fuel/housing/other useful stuff? I think not.


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## Tar-Surion (Jul 25, 2008)

Greetings mighty Dragon. I think the Dwarves would have trimmed their beards, dressed in their best clothes, left their axes behind, smoothed their tongues, bowed a lot, and brought many gifts.

Being short and sort of pathetic might have appealed to the Entwives maternal instincts, and by the way, do these mithril ear-rings suit my eye-colour or should I try for something in topaz?


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## chrysophalax (Jul 25, 2008)

*ACK* 

I, uh, have trouble imagining the above scenario in all honesty. Seeing as the Entwives seemed by all accounts to have shirked their maternal responsibilities in most areas, the very idea of them helping with style tips I find a bit beyond the pale.

I can only assume here that these were _female _dwarves you envision approaching said Entwives and not the local group of DCDA (Dwarven Cross-Dressers Anonymous)?


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## HLGStrider (Jul 25, 2008)

I always saw them as meat eaters, for the main part, and any race can hunt, but they did like ale/mead/whaever, which would imply grain of some sort, I guess.

Still, when you are sitting on top of the largest supply of precious metals in Middle Earth you can afford to trade a bit. Also, I imagine the dwarves would've had stockpiles allowing them to maintain a lengthy siege. They have a somewhat suspicious nature and would be unlikely not to leave themselves several back doors.


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## nodnarb (Jul 25, 2008)

gollum caught fish in his cave....maybe the dwarves could do the same....tho i doubt they could feed them all..it could of made up for at least some food shortages they may of had


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## HLGStrider (Jul 25, 2008)

And cave mushrooms and centipedes . . .


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## nodnarb (Jul 25, 2008)

i doubt centipedes are very healthy...even if they were i doubt they would eat em...just imagine if they lost one in their beard


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## Tar-Surion (Jul 25, 2008)

Cave eco-systems are not very productive. While they might feed the odd Gollum they couldn't support thousands of Dwarves. Hunting is only sustainable long-term if you can move around and follow the herds, as the animals in one place will swiftly be used up.

Large communities of sedentary cave-dwelling Dwarves could only be supported by agriculture: grain obviously because it can be stored for long periods either in a granary or as bread or beer (liquid bread), but a steady supply of fresh fruit and vegies are also necessary if you don't want to come down with scurvy and other deficiency diseases.

I'm assuming here the Dwarf bio-chemistry is roughly the same as our own.

OK--the style-tips thing might have been pushing the envelope a bit, but if Entwives were in any way interested in commerce to obtain pretty things or metal implements they could use in their gardening, there was a community of hungry Dwarves not far away who would be only too willing to purchase anything the Entwives were willing to part with.

I think the Dwarves needed to get their food from somewhere. Mountains are almost useless when it comes to food production and caves are worse. While they might have been able to obtain supplies from the vale of the Anduin this would not replace the bounteous fields of Noldorian Hollin.

The gardens of the Entwives could though, so it is just possible they did. 

I think the Dwarves would have been very good traders; shrewd, determined hard-bargainers who know the value of money. Given that their specialty was manufactured goods and they settled in places where agriculture was difficult to impossible they would have had to supported themselves by trading the things they made for the food they ate.

That's how I see it anyway.


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## Alcuin (Jul 25, 2008)

I am inclined to agree with *Tar-Surion* on this. (I had never considered Entwives, though: very ingenious!) The Dwarves must have grown food – or found food – before they met Men: perhaps they traded with the Avari Elves of Middle-earth before that. It is never said that Thingol traded food with them for the construction of Menegroth: he is supposed to have paid them in pearls; but perhaps he did, and it is simply not recorded.

In _The Hobbit_, in the chapter “An Unexpected Party”, Thorin tells Bilbo that


> [noparse][Men][/noparse] would ... pay us handsomely, especially in food-supplies, which we never bothered to grow or find for ourselves.


In _Unfinished Tales_, in the section “The Quest of Erebor”, Gandalf tells Glóin, Frodo, Merry, and Pippin his version of the events at the beginning of _The Hobbit_, as well as those leading up to the beginning of Bilbo’s tale. At the end of version B, Gandalf observes that _The Hobbit_ is told


> from Bilbo’s point of view. If I had written the account, it would have sounded rather different.


 Earlier in the version, he recounts his journey back to the Blue Mountains with Thorin (in version A, he and Thorin meet in Bree and then travel separately to the Ered Luin, possibly to or near the ruins of Nogrod or, more likely, Belegost, which was the more northerly of the two ancient Dwarf-cities)


> We actually passed through the Shire, though Thorin would not stop... Indeed I think it was annoyance with his haughty disregard of Hobbits that first put into my head the idea of entangling him with them. As far as he was concerned, they were just food-growers who happened to work the fields on either side of the Dwarves’ ancestral road to the Mountains.


As well as I can recall, there is never any mention of Dwarves growing food; however, the Dwarves did occasionally shut themselves up in their cities for long periods of time, such as during the war between the Elves and Sauron during the Second Age, when Sauron seized the Nine Rings and at least some of the Seven Rings from the Mírdain, the smiths of Eregion. It is likely that the Dwarves maintained great stores of food in their citadels for just such purposes; but it would seem logical that they should also have some backup plan in case they were trapped: they could not eat stone.

But in any case, in their very earliest days, they must have obtained food by some means, either by hunting or growing food. In _The Hobbit_, you may recall, the Dwarves shot arrows at the deer in Mirkwood: perhaps they maintained a hunting tradition of some sort.


Centipedes in the beard is a nasty idea! _And_ they have poisonous bites, though perhaps Dwarves are immune… Perhaps they were fond of _gagh_.


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## YayGollum (Jul 25, 2008)

Argh! I clicked on that link! Nasssty star trek! 

Anyways, Hm! *envisions the finest minds of Dwarves and Ents teaming up with the perfect cave ecosystem as the goal* The Ents were good with plants. The females (only possibly all were wives) desired new grounds to break. The males were boring. The grand plans of Dwarves could have been seen as a challenge. Dwarves are reliable. Once the Ents helped out, they'd be able to duplicate it for all time. Afterwards, though, would the Ents have traveled to some other location where they'll never be found, or did the Dwarves murder them, as Yavanna believed to be their nature? They were secretive, and wood is useful. 

Otherwise, sure, trading, rearing herds of mountain goats, fishing, eating mushrooms and centipedes, and storing backup makes sense, but the Dwarves didn't just live in caves and mine. There were huge kingdoms based in mountains. More than one mountain was included in a kingdom. Bases of mountains were included. Better farming land around mountains would be included, too.


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## nodnarb (Jul 25, 2008)

gagh makes me wanna gag


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## Tar-Surion (Jul 25, 2008)

Thanks Alcuin for your learned and thoughtful reply. Your quote from "The Hobbit" was particularly telling as it confirms my feelings on the matter.

Your next quote about Thorin's attitude towards the Shire is interesting from another point of view. Thorin was Dwarf royalty and people in such positions need to have a fair idea about where the food and money comes from. 

If he had had a less disdainful attitude towards the Hobbits he might have perceived them as an asset rather than an annoyance.

Hobbits were after all enthusiastic agriculturalists, second only to the Entwives themselves. They were just the ticket to feed a large Dwarf mansion in the Blue Mountains.

Perhaps the Hobbits themselves were to 'blame'. As a peaceful folk they had no use for weapons and armour; as an inward-looking and self-sufficient economy, suspicious of all things foreign, they might not have wanted Dwarf manufactured goods. As a folk who enjoyed above all the pleasures of the table they probably preferred to wax fat on their surplus rather than trade it for Tom-fool foreign trinkets. 

Trade after all is a means to an end, not an end in itself; you do it if its does you good, otherwise not.

There was probably some small-scale commerce with the Blue Mountains in the west of the Shire; ingot metals: iron, copper, perhaps a little silver and gold for luxury goods and issues of coinage, but nothing big enough to create a second Belgost.

That seems to have been the chief problem of being a Dwarf: you were dependent on the willingness and ability of other people to support you: and if for whatever reason they didn't want to or couldn't, life could become very difficult or even impossible.

People who live off other people's surpluses have a hand to mouth existence, unstable and precarious. Their numbers are always going to be fairly small, literally no bigger than what the market will bear. My own feeling is that Dwarf mansions were fairly small affairs, numbered in the thousands rather than the tens of thousands. 

I suspect that Khazad-dum even at its height in the Second Age might have had no more than 5000 inhabitants. By the time they unearthed the Balrog in the Third Age, after the loss of the resources of Hollin, the Entwives Gardens, the North Kingdom lost, and Gondor in decline, it might have been closer to two thousand, maybe less.


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## Prince of Cats (Jul 26, 2008)

Tar-Surion,

I keep wishing to reply to this awesome thread you've came up with but each time I delay, you hit points I was going to  

I think that the Dwarves of Khazad-dun would be in great peril once the farm lands were occupied or ravaged, absolutely, and you've brought to light a couple reasons. The one that really interests me though is their bartering and the worth of the Dwarves' goods. Like you said, the like of Hobbits might not even care for dwarven craft - but others they did enough. But the times when outsiders would have traded great amounts of food for trinkets was during peace. During war, when the regular people are just trying to survive, there isn't a great surplus to trade away, and more importantly there's a huge drop in demand for luxury items. The average person was probably at that point just concerned about how to keep his family alive and fed.

So ... in the time they are desperate to trade no one really needs what they have - this agriculture thing would have been huge!


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## Tar-Surion (Jul 26, 2008)

What you say is true. One thing though: during war demand for Dwarvish weaponry will rise to cover the lost luxury/peacetime trade; but in war grain has to be diverted to maintain armies in the field. Thus the price of it will rise and it won't be long before the Dwarves are gnawing on cram.

I was thinking that Gondor might have been a place capable of supporting a sizable Dwarf mansion, but for one reason or another this didn't happen. The Dwarves seem to have stayed in the north and perhaps the Numenoreans were satisfied with their own products.

Despite that I find it strange that when the Dwarves were driven from Moria by the Balrog in 1980 of the 3rd Age they headed north to the Lonely Mountain in the middle of nowhere, not south into Gondor which was much closer, richer, more productive and easily the place in the whole world most easily able to support a Dwarf mansion and a great need for what Dwarves were so good at making. Not only that they had plenty of mountains for the Dwarves to live in if that is what they wanted.

Did they approach the King of Gondor to be admitted as refugees and were refused? If so it was a foolish act, for the Numenorean soldiers wielding Dwarvish weapons, protected by Dwarvish armour, helms and shields would have been formidable indeed.


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## chrysophalax (Jul 26, 2008)

Eh, I'm not too sure Saruman would've allowed a mass dwarf migration even if the Steward of Gondor allowed it. Since dwarves aren't the easiest to corrupt, I doubt they would've been very happy as neighbours.


The Blue Mountains though, they would probably have suited the refugees quite nicely, just as they had ages before, especially as dwarves aren't averse to hard work. As it was, after awakening the Balrog they were probably just looking for the nearest port in a storm...which turned out to be not the best choice soon afterwards. Drat us Dragons, eh?


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## Prince of Cats (Jul 26, 2008)

They probably managed to carry off some great riches, and based on what I've read by Tolkien concerning dwarves, I'd suppose they would avoid the aid of men so to keep their remaining hoard


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## HLGStrider (Jul 26, 2008)

Perhaps the Dwarves, stolid fighters, would've also offered military protection to smaller towns (such as Dale) they settled next to in return for food. I don't have any proof of this, it just felt like something they might do.

That said, there are a lot of creative but unsubstantiated possibilities as well. Air shafts allowing light into caverns for subterranean agriculture (such as the one on Balin's tomb.). The shelter of the earth about it might've allowed for some out of season growth as well. Some fruits can be dried. 

I've never heard of their being large populations of dwarves. Dwarf women are rare. Some choose not to marry. Dwarves survived rather than repopulated. 



> Thorin was Dwarf royalty and people in such positions need to have a fair idea about where the food and money comes from.



Thorin was royalty by birth but he had never had to rule a large number. He was second in line for the Lonely Mountain kingship (his father and grandfather at least being alive at the time of the dragon), a position of rank but not necessarily responsibility, especially because he was a young dwarf at this time. After that he was what we might consider an exiled prince. His leadership was always martial.


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 14, 2008)

I really like the idea of Dwarves trading with Entwives, it may seem far-fetched at first, but there are a circumstances in which it could have happened, at least theoretically. Anyhow, interesting line of thought, Tar-Surion!

Another very original, if less pleasant, idea is YayGollum's suggestion that it might have been Dwarves who were to blame for the disappearance of the Entwives. And why not - Sauron seems like such an obvious suspect, no one has thought to look to the Dwarves for culprits. There are, after all, houses less friendly with Men of the West than the House of Durin.


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## Firawyn (Sep 26, 2008)

While caves are pretty much rock, there's still clay and packed dirt and all of that fun stuff. There was obviously water supply, so my question is (they certainly had plenty of space), couldn't they have had gardens of thier own? 

The incredible thing about agriculture is that certain plants will only grow certain places, and under certain conditions. Perhaps the dwarves discovered some types of food-plants that would indeed grow in the cave enviroment. 

After all, Thorin and his crew were certainly familar with the garden types of foods that Bilbo provided them with in _The Hobbit_. While they could have obtained that in trade, it could also have been of thier own means. 

From my perspective, there were too many things that Dwarves seemed very aquainted with (ale, veggies, etc), they they could not have aquired in enough mass to regularly feed all of the colony. Those they would/could have traded with would need to feed thier own people first, before trading with the dwarves. I think that they had to have some means of agriculture.


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## HLGStrider (Sep 27, 2008)

> While caves are pretty much rock, there's still clay and packed dirt and all of that fun stuff. There was obviously water supply, so my question is (they certainly had plenty of space), couldn't they have had gardens of thier own?


Only with an elaborate system of shafts to let in sun light. Very few types of plants grow in the dark. 

Still, I don't think that familiarity means that they grew their own. Trade would explain a knowledge and use of these items. It simply would've required productive neighbors.


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## YayGollum (Sep 27, 2008)

Hm. Very few spiders grow to be bigger than dogs, too. Perhaps there could be all kinds of exotic things in Tolkien's fantastical world!  Towards the Dwarves, I'll be sticking with the idea that they used the land around their mountains for plenty but that they were large fans of trade bustlage. Towards Orcs, they'd hunt and plunder all of the time, but I am thinking that they would have some surprising innovations of their own. Mel messed with the elves to make them that way. He knew where he planned on filing them away until they were required. Messing with plants to ensure an adequate (but probably gross) food supply would be easy for him. Also, Orcs could have just used their creepy magic and knowledge to make better plants, since elves are surrounded by all kinds of creepy things that I've never heard of, too.


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## Firawyn (Sep 27, 2008)

HLGStrider said:


> Still, I don't think that familiarity means that they grew their own. Trade would explain a knowledge and use of these items. It simply would've required productive neighbors.


 

You have to keep in mind that Middle Earth is primitive in comparison to our modern agriculture. They had mules with pull along plows, not _John Deer _tractors. At best I'd say that one man could manage one to three acres worth of feilds, and he'd need at least one acre of that to feed his own family. Factor in that the farmers would be feeding not only thier families, but other tradesmen and thier families. 

Say for example, there is a village that has 1,000 people in it, and they have 100 acres of land. So that means that every acre had to provide food for ten people. (I grew up in a "farm county", so I know a bit about this.) So imagine life that way, and then think about how any smart town leaders would plan for a "bad crop year", and save what was not used. By his descriptions of the Laketown (which we can assume is the basic town), there was that kind of a people/acrege balence. I simple have a very hard time imagining that the dwarves could have been supported by outside agriculture. 



> Only with an elaborate system of shafts to let in sun light. Very few types of plants grow in the dark.


 
At least in Moria, we know there were such shafts, to allow for light in certain areas. Also - to use a modern example - anytime miners are digging in an area, the first thing they do is dig secondary shafts for air, in case of cave in. I suspect that the dwarves were just as smart.



> Hm. Very few spiders grow to be bigger than dogs, too. Perhaps there could be all kinds of exotic things in Tolkien's fantastical world!


 
I agree with this 100%. Thanks Yay.


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## HLGStrider (Sep 27, 2008)

Even in ancient cultures there was a certain amount of trade for food. It would have to be very fertile land near to dwarves, but homesteaders in pioneer America wouldn't have had much better equipment and they general idea behind most farmers even back then was to sale the surplus grain. I still think, allowing for smaller populations, it could be done.


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## Firawyn (Sep 27, 2008)

I think it can be argued either way.


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