# The fate of the Elves



## Helcaraxë (Dec 26, 2003)

Alright, there have been many threads regarding the fate of the Elves (Tolkien makes clear what the fate of Men is), but I can find none of them. Thus, I would like to propound my arguments.

Some members have argued that the Elves would cease to exist after the Second Music. However, this contradicts some of Tolkiens writings.

In the Silmarillion, chapter 1, Tolkien says:



> And the Themes of Iluvatar shall be played aright...



Because all of the themes of Iluvatar are played correctly, and the theme regarding the Elves was a major part of the music, Elves would have to exist after the Second Music.

And earlier in the BoLT:



> And the mightiest themes of Iluvatar will be played aright...



Again, this has the same implications. 

Second, I doubt Iluvatar would permit the Elves, one of his beloved creations, to cease to exist.

These are my thoughts on the subject.

MB


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## Maeglin (Jan 7, 2004)

You must remember that Illuvatar was the God/King of all Ea, not just Arda, and probably has many many other creations elsewhere, therefore you must not rule out that he has other creations that he puts above the elves. However, I can see your viewpoint, there is no reason for them to not exist anymore....then again, he really has no use left for them either.


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## Helcaraxë (Jan 15, 2004)

No use? Well, what "use" was there to Ea in the first place? Things don't exist because the're useful. Eru predicted what Melkor would do, and it certainly wasn't useful, even if it was necessary.  

MB


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 7, 2004)

The fate of the Elves is bound together with the fate of Arda itself. As long as it's there, Elves will be too. The same goes for those Ainur who entered Arda (the Valar and the Maiar). After the 3rd Age, the Dominion of Men would commence in Middle-Earth, and any Elves who decided to stay there would slowly fade into oblivion - their bodies would slowly 'become invisible' though their spirits would remain.


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## Lantarion (Feb 7, 2004)

ithrynluin said:


> The fate of the Elves is bound together with the fate of Arda itself. As long as it's there, Elves will be too. The same goes for those Ainur who entered Arda (the Valar and the Maiar). After the 3rd Age, the Dominion of Men would commence in Middle-Earth, and any Elves who decided to stay there would slowly fade into oblivion - their bodies would slowly 'become invisible' though their spirits would remain.


Hmm, you contradict yourself a bit there Ithy.. You say that Elves are bound to Arda (which they are), and yet you say that they begin to 'fade' after the Third Age, even thuogh Arda is still around!
But I do see what you actually meant, stresing that their *bodies*, _hröar_, would disappear slowly, but that their souls would not. But I see no real implication or reason to why their bodies would begin to fade in the first place. It was not decreed in the Ainulindalë, as far as I know, that the Elves would begin to disappear in any shape or form simply because a certain amount of time had passed.


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## jallan (Feb 7, 2004)

From _The Silmarillion_, chapter 12, "Of Men":


> Immortal were the Elves, and their wisdom waxed from age to age, and no sickness nor pestilence brought death to them. Their bodies indeed were of the stuff of Earth, and could be destroyed; and in those days they were more like the bodies of Men, since they had not so long been inhabited by the fire of their spirit, which consumes them from within in the courses of time.


There it is. In time the spirit within the body of the Elf consumes the body and the Elf's body fades.

_Morgoth's Ring_, "Myths Transformed", _Text XI: Aman_ provides more detail:


> On earth the Quendi suffered no sickness, and the health of their bodies was supported by the might of the longeval _fëar_. But their bodies, being of the stuff of Arda, were nonetheless not so enduring as their spirits; for the longevity of the Quendi was derived primarily from their _fëar_, whose nature or 'doom' was to abide in Arda until its end. Therefore, after the vitality of the _hröa_ was expended in achieving full growth, it began to weaken or grow weary. For a while it would be fortified and maintained by its indwelling _fëa_, and then its vitality would begin to ebb, and its desire for physical life and joy in it would pass ever more swiftly away. Then an Elf would begin (as they say now, for those things did not fully appear in the Elder Days) to 'fade', until the _fëa_ as it were consumed the _hröa_ until it remained only in the love and memory of the spirits that had inhabited it.
> 
> But in Aman, since its blessing descended upon the _hröar_ of the Eldar, as upon all other bodies, the _hröar_ aged only apace with the _fëar_, and the Eldar that remained in the Blessed Realm endured in full maturity and in undimmed power of body and spirit conjoined for ages beyond our mortal comprehension.


In the same book, "The Later _Quenta Silmarillion_, _Laws B_, "Of Death and the Serverance of Fëa and Hrondo [>Hröa]":


> As ages passed the domiances of their _fëar_ ever increased 'consuming' their bodies (as has been noted). The end of this process is their 'fading', as Men have called it, for the body becomes at last, as it were, a mere memory held by the _fëa_; and that end has already been achieved in many regions of Middle-earth, so that the Elves are indeed deathless and may not be destroyed or changed.


There are then certain advantages to this fading. The faded Elf cannot be slain by any means, has become somewhat like an incorporal spirit.

Earlier in the same text:


> This the Eldar mean when they speak of their spirits consuming them; and they say that ere Arda ends all the Eldalië on earth will have become as spirits invisible to mortal eyes, unless they will to be seen by some among Men into whose minds they may enter directly.


This of course is Tolkien's imagined view Elves in Middle-earth in our own days.

There is a suggestion here, not explicitly stated, that Elves born of other Elves are to perhaps partly born of flesh already slightly consumed in the same respect as that of their parents. Otherwise it would be difficult to see how all Elves could be faded in some regions of Middle-earth or that all Elves would be faded by a particular time.

That Legolas can walk lightly over the snow without sinking may be an aspect of this. No such powers are recorded of Elves of the First Age and we are particularly told that in those days the bodies of Elves and Men were more alike.


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## Lhunithiliel (Feb 8, 2004)

About whether Elves from the "old world" would be "needed" in the new one - created by the Second Music:
IMO, it depends on what Tolkien's Elves were meant to be for .
What I have in mind is a brief comment I have found in a T's letter:



> Letter 131: (in a note):
> ...my 'elves' are only a representation or an apprehension of a part of human nature..."



So... my belief is that the fate of the "old-world Elves" is clear and Tolkien has explicitly commented on this matter, even though it may seem at first that as if their fate is not decided.
As we know, in the later writings Tolkien changed a bit his opinion on who is to take part in SM (meaning - who is to live in Arda Unmarred = a new world ) and he "let" the Elves to also "participate" in the SM (in the Silm. it is said that not only Men will take part but "the Children of Iluvatar" - this meaning that the Elves *are* included).

All right! The question however is:
What kind of Elves are those to be present in the new world?
What kind of Men?

Old Arda will have been destroyed >> "old-type" Elves - too... 

But if we understand Tolkien's Elves as it is explained in the quote above, then to me it seems that the new world will be inhabitted by creatures, who will have the best of the features of both races of the Children.... or rather - these will be perhaps Men but sort of "perfected". Thus, I see both races united into one to be present in the new world.
From this p.o.v. I think that the fate of the Elves is quite optimistic! 
Such is the one of Men, isn't it!


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