# The buildings in Gondor



## Firawyn (Feb 5, 2005)

In the Lord of the Rings, the only Gondorian erections were that of the White City. Were there other buildings or was that it? If there were, what did they look like??

What do you think about this? Is this somethink like what it would be like??


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## Inderjit S (Feb 5, 2005)

Well Gondor has lots of different buildings-Minas Morgul, some watchtowers in Mordor, Orthanc and Helm's Deep (supposedly) Osgiliath, the pillars of Isildur and Anarion....I am sure there are many others.


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## Maeglin (Feb 6, 2005)

Dol Amroth is another Gondorian City, along with several ports along the coast, Amon Hen.....and some others I'm sure.


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## FrankSinatra (Feb 6, 2005)

I always imagine Gondor to be almost Meditteranean, rather than the English geographical style that Tolkien seemed to create for the rest of Middle Earth.


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## Eledhwen (Feb 19, 2005)

> TOLKIEN, in Letter 294: The action of the story takes place in the North-west of 'Middle-earth', equivalent in latitude to the coastlands of Europe and the north shores of the Mediterranean. ... If Hobbiton and Rivendell are taken (as intended) to be at about the latitude of Oxford, then Minas Tirith, 600 miles south, is at about the latitude of Florence. The Mouths of Anduin and the ancient city of Pelargir are at about the latitude of ancient Troy.


That would place Gondor squarely in the Mediterranean region, as you guessed.


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## Narsil (Feb 20, 2005)

Is it possible that Tolkien was looking to equate Minith Tirith and Gondor with Rome and the Roman Empire? 

I know that Numenor is supposedly equated with Atlantis so why not Gondor with Rome?


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## Barliman Butterbur (Feb 20, 2005)

Firawyn said:


> ...Gondorian erections...



Watch it, this is a G-rated forum!

Barley


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## Inderjit S (Feb 21, 2005)

"Is it possible that Tolkien was looking to equate Minith Tirith and Gondor with Rome and the Roman Empire? "

Perhaps Isildur was Aeneas, Eldacar was Caesar, Castamir was Pompey and Aragorn was Claudius. Or perhaps not. 

"Watch it, this is a G-rated forum!" 

LOL!


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## Hammersmith (Feb 21, 2005)

Don't forget Cair Parav....I mean Cair Andros! The most totally cool city in all of Gondor!


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 21, 2005)

Hammersmith said:


> I mean Cair Andros! The most totally cool city in all of Gondor!



_Technically_, Cair Andros was an island in the Anduin, and as far as I know, there is no mention of there being a city there of any kind. More likely, the Gondorians held a small force of arms there in secret at all times to guard against Morodor.


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## Hammersmith (Feb 21, 2005)

Ithrynluin said:


> _Technically_, Cair Andros was an island in the Anduin, and as far as I know, there is no mention of there being a city there of any kind. More likely, the Gondorians held a small force of arms there in secret at all times to guard against Morodor.


 
No, there was a fortress on Cair Andros of the same name. It fell to Sauron's forces just before the battle of Pelennor Fields, and was liberated after Sauron's fall. I think it's in the Appendices.


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 21, 2005)

That still doesn't qualify for a city!


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## Hammersmith (Feb 21, 2005)

Minas Tirith is "Tower of the Guard", and a tower isn't a city, either. I reckon that Cair Andros is a city; 'fortress' and 'city' can be practically synonymous. Indeed, it is often the fortress that makes the settlement _into_ a city. Could someone with a greater knowledge of the Appendices prove me right?


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## Narsil (Feb 21, 2005)

Inderjit S said:


> "Is it possible that Tolkien was looking to equate Minith Tirith and Gondor with Rome and the Roman Empire? "
> 
> Perhaps Isildur was Aeneas, Eldacar was Caesar, Castamir was Pompey and Aragorn was Claudius. Or perhaps not.



You're right. Doesn't work for me either.


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## Ceorl (Mar 11, 2005)

> Is it possible that Tolkien was looking to equate Minith Tirith and Gondor with Rome and the Roman Empire?



No, many people have tried to link the LotR with the second world war in which JRRT was involved, however he denied such links, and stated that he detested allegory, therefore I find it highly unlikely that he would have tried to reproduce the ancient world.


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## Eledhwen (Mar 12, 2005)

The nearest it gets to that is in style, design and culture. Gondor has a medieval flavour; and the Rohirrim are effectively Saxons on horseback. Hobbits are reminiscent of the aspects of English life that Tolkien admired in his youth, but which were slipping away into history. But nothing in Middle-earth is meant to represent those things, they are just tools of Tolkien's imagination.


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## Alcuin (Mar 13, 2005)

Tolkien named several communities in Gondor. Besides Minas Tirith, Pelargir was a large and ancient commercial city, probably the oldest founded by men in Gondor. Dol Amroth was apparently a large community, and might have been founded by elves. Calembel was an uplands town on the Ciril River Aragorn passed with the Grey Company. Linhir was apparently a sizable community near the coast through which Aragorn passed with his unusual army on the way to Pelargir.

Edhellond shared a common harbor (small offset bay) called Cobas Haven with Dol Amroth off the Bay of Belfalas. Edhellond was extremely old, and might even have been founded by elves in the First Age at the mouth of the River Ringló. 

Ethring is marked (with a bridge?) at the River Ringló on the map of Gondor in _RotK_, and it is likely Aragorn used it, too, in his race to sea. Ethring is mentioned in _The Lost Road_, volume 5 of the _History of Middle-Earth_. Tarnost is mentioned in volume 3 of the _History of Middle-Earth_, the _War of the Ring_, but since it is not in _LotR_, it is not canonical.

In the real world, there are often cities near the crossings of important rivers, such as London on the Thames and Paris on the Seine. Following that reasoning, there might have been a town at the Crossing of the Erui River, where Eldacar killed Castamir the Usurper during Gondor’s civil war, the Kin-Strife. The South Road from Minas Tirith to Pelargir crossed the river there. There was also a major crossing at the Poros River on the border of South Gondor; the twin uncles of Théoden’s father were killed fighting beside Gondor in a battle with Harad and buried there. Tolkien mentions battles in these places, but not towns.

Gandalf speaks in the Last Debate of retreat to the strong places of Gondor, and there were probably several of these. From the earliest permanent settlements in the real world, people have tended to live around fortified areas if they were endangered, and the coastal regions of Gondor were under continual threat from pirates out of Umbar. We know that there was a local lord in Pinnath Gelin during the War of the Ring, Hirluin the Fair, who died at the Battle of Pelennor Fields. He almost certainly had an hereditary fortress, and even if it were small, there was probably a community there. Every hereditary nobleman would have a stronghold because Gondor was under attack from time to time throughout its history, and there seem to have been quite a few hereditary nobles.

Anórien northwest of Minas Tirith may have had many communities. None are mentioned, but there were signal towers there to alert the populace in case of war. (The signals were alight as Gandalf raced with Pippin on Shadowfax to Minas Tirith.) If it was useful to signal them, there were probably people living there, although the principal purpose of the string of towers seems to have been to alert Rohan in times of crisis. Anórien was the fief originally associated with Minas Anor (Minas Tirith).

Tolkien also mentions that there were fishermen living along the coasts and mountaineers. Belfalas seems to have been thickly populated. Anfalas south of Pinnath Gelin may also have had some communities. 

In the old days of Gondor, Osgiliath was a major city, but it was devastated and deserted after the Plague. The people who survived apparently moved to Minas Anor, later Minas Tirith. Minas Ithil was apparently a good-sized town, but its population was also reduced by Plague, and of course it was seized over 1000 years before the War of the Ring by the Nazgûl and renamed Minas Morgul. Whomever was left there probably came to an unpleasant end. The people of Ithilien probably had many communities, but they were all deserted by the War of the Ring. (Faramir said his rangers were the descendents of the people of Ithilien.) Osgiliath had quite an architectural history, including the Dome of the Stars and its famous bridge, but these were all in ruins by the War of the Ring.

Pippin noted that Minas Tirith had many empty houses and courtyards. Whether the population had fled from the dangers of approaching war or was simply much reduced over the centuries is not stated; but after the war, when Aragorn was King, it seems that people returned to Minas Tirith.

Finally, Minas Tirith, Pelargir, Dol Amroth, Edhellond, Lindir, and Ethring needed food, supplies, trade goods, raw materials, and other stuffs. There must have been a substantial population in Gondor, or else from the descriptions of the armies of the Southerners and Easterlings, they would simply have taken the land for themselves.

Presumably, all these people living in those various communities would have had buildings suitable to their purposes, some extremely old, extremely large, and extremely well-constructed (such as Pelargir), down to villages that might have been built of wood. “Dol Amroth” means “hill of Amroth”, but presumably the Princes of Dol Amroth had a castle or fortress there. (I don’t believe that is explicitly stated.) Edhellond was constructed during a very dangerous time in the history of Middle Earth; it probably had a wall. Pelargir almost certainly had walls, towers, a central fortress, quays, and docks, as well as warehouses, administrative buildings, s few palatial homes, and accomodations for the common folk of the town. I think we can infer that there were bridges at Ethring, Erui, and Poros. (That isn’t explicitly stated, either, but it seems unlikely that large military forces and primary commercial traffic to and from the capital were crossing major rivers in Gondor at the height of its power by using fords. Even Arnor in its old days had built the Brandywine Bridge and the “Last Bridge” over the Hoarwell for the East Road, and there had been a bridge – and town – at Tharbad in the middle of Eregion until it was finally ruined in a flood a little over a century before the War of the Ring.)


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## Aiglos (Mar 13, 2005)

Excellent post Alcuin!

Dol Amroth WAS founded by Elves, an single Elf actually IIRC...

Can't remember his full name, and too lazy to go and look it up, besides I'm sure someone else will! But part of it was Amroth.

He died trying to rescue his sweetheart from the Flood of the Anduin.

Legolas comments on Imrahil of Dol Amroth that he certainly looks elvish. Imrahil is class BTW, another of the better warrior characters that should have been represented in the film!!!


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## Flame of Udûn (Mar 14, 2005)

_The War of the Ring_ was the eight book of _The History of Middle-earth_, not the third.


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## Alcuin (Mar 14, 2005)

Flame of Udûn said:


> _The War of the Ring_ was the eight book of _The History of Middle-earth_, not the third.


My bad. You are correct. It is _HoME_ volume 8. It reads “The History of the Lord of the Rings | Part 3” at the top of the front cover of the softbound edition. I grabbed it yesterday, read the number 3, and wrote that down.


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## Helm (Mar 18, 2005)

Hammersmith said:


> Minas Tirith is "Tower of the Guard", and a tower isn't a city, either. I reckon that Cair Andros is a city; 'fortress' and 'city' can be practically synonymous. Indeed, it is often the fortress that makes the settlement _into_ a city. Could someone with a greater knowledge of the Appendices prove me right?


 
Using the index, Cair Andros is metioned on the first page of _The Black Gate Opens _but it does't help us any. And in the appendices once, It says:


> He [Turin] also fortified again the isle of Cair Andros to defend Anorien.


 It says nothing about a city, but it says a fortress, therefore I say it is a fortress.


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## Eledhwen (Mar 20, 2005)

Helm said:


> It says nothing about a city, but it says a fortress, therefore I say it is a fortress.


Before we go taking the red corner and the blue corner, a fortress is a military stronghold. The amount to which it resembles a city depends on that stronghold's toleration of soldiers' families. Fortifications are, by definition, military; but many ancient settlements were walled and garrisoned for safety reasons. How many American towns began life as military posts? Fort Jefferson comes to mind (I really hope that's a town, now I've said it  ).


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## setnaffa (Aug 4, 2005)

Technically, in Medieval terms, a city is a large town with a Cathedral... of course, in ME, there are no churches or cathedrals--the closest similarity might be the Meneltarma on Numenor that was.



After seeing the Gray Havens in the movie (which the Tolkein purist in me hates but the Tolkein fanboy in me loves), I wonder that there weren't people there, except:

1. Elven "magick" might have kept them away... think about the "games" that led Bilbo and the dwarves (dwarfs?) into the spidery part of the forest...

2. Sam, in the Extended Edition, noted that the passing of the Elves mad him sad. Perhaps the glory that was, and the potential, and the fact that it was not to be, would make visitors too sad to stay.

3. Maybe the building designs were uncomfortable to humans (Tolkein's elves were taller).

4. Maybe with the passing of the three rings, the buildings rapidly deteriorated--like Venice is doing now.

5. There just weren't enough people--and in a very European way, there weren't many pioneers (Think of Christopher Columbus, Daniel Boone, Jim Bridger, etc.).

And that's also why Gondor was not expanding... "the Black Breath" did more than wound Faramir. It kept people down on the farm, or huddled together in litte stockades. The pioneers were probable killed by wandering orcs, hillmen like those of Dunland, giant spiders, and greedy dwarves, and non-aligned elves...

In the Days of the King, evil was on the full retreat, the malignancy of Sauron was lifted, and crops were better...

Thanks for some very cool posts!!


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## Eledhwen (Aug 6, 2005)

setnaffa said:


> Technically, in Medieval terms, a city is a large town with a Cathedral... of course, in ME, there are no churches or cathedrals--the closest similarity might be the Meneltarma on Numenor that was.


The definition has varied over the years. Some village sized settlements (in modern terms) with Cathedrals were historically accepted as cities, but have since discovered that they no longer have (or never did officially have) city status. There is a good (short) explanation of how it works here: http://www.lovemytown.co.uk/CityStatus/


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