# The Valar in The Second And Third Ages



## John (Aug 31, 2021)

Why did The Valar Appear to The Free People Of Middle Earth Only in The First Age And Not in The Second Or Third Ages? And Why did Eru Never Appear to The Free People?


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## Alcuin (Aug 31, 2021)

The Valar were not inactive during the Second and Third Ages. They sent a considerable embassy to Tar-Atanamir in hopes of stemming what blossomed into the Númenórean Apostasy against Eru and eventually into Ar-Pharazôn’s attempt to invade and conquer Valinor. In the Third Age, they at least sent the five Istari (and possibly others) to counter the reärising of Sauron, of which they were aware by the end of the first millennium. Elbereth heard the prayers of Elves and Men in Middle-earth, and whether by chance or fate or intervention, these seem sometimes to have been answered. They were not merely resting on their tushies, though I suppose they did a lot of that, too.

As for Eru appearing in Arda, Finrod and Andreth discussed this:
​[Andreth said,] ”How or when shall healing come? … [W]hat of us who before it go out into darkness unhealed? To such questions only those of the ‘Old Hope’ … have any guess of an answer.”​​… Finrod [said], “Who are they?”​​… “They say,” answered Andreth, “that the One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end. This they say ... is a rumor that has come down through years uncounted, even from the days of our undoing. … Men perceive the world only as a war between Light and Dark equipotent. But you will say: nay, that is Manwë and Melkor; Eru is above them. Is then Eru only the greatest of the Valar, a great god among gods, as most Men will say, even among the Atani: a king who dwells far from his kingdom and leaves lesser princes to do here much as they will? Again you say: nay, Eru is One, alone without peer, and He made Eä, and is beyond it; and the Valar are greater than we, but yet no nearer to His majesty. Is this not so?”​​“Yes,” said Finrod. “We say this, and the Valar … say the same…”​​… Andreth [said], “… How could Eru enter into the thing that He has made, and that which He is beyond measure greater? Can the singer enter into his tale or the designer into his picture?“​​“He is already in it, as well as outside,” said Finrod. “But indeed the ‘in-dwelling’ and the ‘out-living’ are not … the same … .”​​“Truly,” said Andreth. “So may Eru … be present in Eä that proceeded from Him. But they speak of Eru Himself entering into Arda, and that is a thing wholly different. How could He the greater do this? Would it not shatter Arda, or indeed all Eä?”​​… Finrod [said], “These things are beyond the ... wisdom of the Eldar, or of the Valar maybe. … But such words may not be used of the Measureless. If Eru wished to do this, I do not doubt that He would find a way, though I cannot foresee it. For, as it seems to me, even if He in Himself were to enter in, He must still remain also as He is: the Author without. And yet, Andreth, to speak with humility, I cannot conceive how else this healing could be achieved. Since Eru will surely not suffer Melkor to turn the world to his own will and to triumph in the end. Yet there is no power conceivable greater than Melkor save Eru only. Therefore Eru, if He will not relinquish His work to Melkor, who must else proceed to mastery, then Eru must come in to conquer him.”​​This I cite from “Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth” (“The Debate of Finrod and Andreth”) in _Morgoth’s Ring_. The section is worth reading, if not for this exchange, then for the sad but beautiful star-crossed love story of Andreth, a mortal woman (and the aunt of Barahir, Beren One-handed’s father), and Finrod’s brother, Aegnor.


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## John (Dec 7, 2021)

Alcuin said:


> The Valar were not inactive during the Second and Third Ages. They sent a considerable embassy to Tar-Atanamir in hopes of stemming what blossomed into the Númenórean Apostasy against Eru and eventually into Ar-Pharazôn’s attempt to invade and conquer Valinor. In the Third Age, they at least sent the five Istari (and possibly others) to counter the reärising of Sauron, of which they were aware by the end of the first millennium. Elbereth heard the prayers of Elves and Men in Middle-earth, and whether by chance or fate or intervention, these seem sometimes to have been answered. They were not merely resting on their tushies, though I suppose they did a lot of that, too.
> 
> As for Eru appearing in Arda, Finrod and Andreth discussed this:
> ​[Andreth said,] ”How or when shall healing come? … [W]hat of us who before it go out into darkness unhealed? To such questions only those of the ‘Old Hope’ … have any guess of an answer.”​​… Finrod [said], “Who are they?”​​… “They say,” answered Andreth, “that the One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end. This they say ... is a rumor that has come down through years uncounted, even from the days of our undoing. … Men perceive the world only as a war between Light and Dark equipotent. But you will say: nay, that is Manwë and Melkor; Eru is above them. Is then Eru only the greatest of the Valar, a great god among gods, as most Men will say, even among the Atani: a king who dwells far from his kingdom and leaves lesser princes to do here much as they will? Again you say: nay, Eru is One, alone without peer, and He made Eä, and is beyond it; and the Valar are greater than we, but yet no nearer to His majesty. Is this not so?”​​“Yes,” said Finrod. “We say this, and the Valar … say the same…”​​… Andreth [said], “… How could Eru enter into the thing that He has made, and that which He is beyond measure greater? Can the singer enter into his tale or the designer into his picture?“​​“He is already in it, as well as outside,” said Finrod. “But indeed the ‘in-dwelling’ and the ‘out-living’ are not … the same … .”​​“Truly,” said Andreth. “So may Eru … be present in Eä that proceeded from Him. But they speak of Eru Himself entering into Arda, and that is a thing wholly different. How could He the greater do this? Would it not shatter Arda, or indeed all Eä?”​​… Finrod [said], “These things are beyond the ... wisdom of the Eldar, or of the Valar maybe. … But such words may not be used of the Measureless. If Eru wished to do this, I do not doubt that He would find a way, though I cannot foresee it. For, as it seems to me, even if He in Himself were to enter in, He must still remain also as He is: the Author without. And yet, Andreth, to speak with humility, I cannot conceive how else this healing could be achieved. Since Eru will surely not suffer Melkor to turn the world to his own will and to triumph in the end. Yet there is no power conceivable greater than Melkor save Eru only. Therefore Eru, if He will not relinquish His work to Melkor, who must else proceed to mastery, then Eru must come in to conquer him.”​​This I cite from “Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth” (“The Debate of Finrod and Andreth”) in _Morgoth’s Ring_. The section is worth reading, if not for this exchange, then for the sad but beautiful star-crossed love story of Andreth, a mortal woman (and the aunt of Barahir, Beren One-handed’s father), and Finrod’s brother, Aegnor.


Yeah But How did Manwe and Varda gets news of the events of middle earth after the breaking of the world by Eru in the second age?


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## HALETH✒🗡 (Dec 9, 2021)

John said:


> Yeah But How did Manwe and Varda gets news of the events of middle earth after the breaking of the world by Eru in the second age?


As I remember, Manwe got news thanks to eagles. 🦅🦅🦅


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## John (Dec 9, 2021)

HALETH✒🗡 said:


> As I remember, Manwe got news thanks to eagles. 🦅🦅🦅


yeah but how could eagles get to the undying lands after they were taken out of Arda and placed beyond the confines of the world? were they able to take the straight road like the elves?


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## HALETH✒🗡 (Dec 9, 2021)

John said:


> yeah but how could eagles get to the undying lands after they were taken out of Arda and placed beyond the confines of the world? were they able to take the straight road like the elves?


Perhaps they knew the straight road because they were called Manwe's eagles.


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## John (Dec 9, 2021)

HALETH✒🗡 said:


> Perhaps they knew the straight road because they were called Manwe's eagles.


yeah but If only elves were allowed to take the straight road why were eagles Allowed?


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## HALETH✒🗡 (Dec 9, 2021)

John said:


> yeah but If only elves were allowed to take the straight road why were eagles Allowed?


Maybe the eagles were allowed to take the straight road as they served Manwe. Elves were allowed to take the straight road TO Valinor, while eagles flew FROM Valinor and back. I'm not sure, though.


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## John (Dec 9, 2021)

HALETH✒🗡 said:


> Maybe the eagles were allowed to take the straight road as they served Manwe. Elves were allowed to take the straight road TO Valinor, while eagles flew FROM Valinor and back. I'm not sure, though.


can anyone else help here?


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## Radaghast (Dec 9, 2021)

John said:


> Why did The Valar Appear to The Free People Of Middle Earth Only in The First Age And Not in The Second Or Third Ages? And Why did Eru Never Appear to The Free People?


In-story, it's explained as the Valar basically not being allowed to interact much with Middle-earth considering the effects of the War of Wrath, particularly the sinking the western half of Middle-earth.

From a writing standpoint, there might never have been a Second and Third Age if not for _The Hobbit_. The popularity of that book and its inclusion in the legendarium necessitated both a sequel and the invention of a lot of background mythology, much of it in the Second Age. A lot of what happened in the Second Age has to do with the Rings of Power, which would not have existed without _The Hobbit_.


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## HALETH✒🗡 (Dec 9, 2021)

John said:


> Why did The Valar Appear to The Free People Of Middle Earth Only in The First Age And Not in The Second Or Third Ages?


There's a wise proverb in Russia: "На Бога надейся, а сам не плошай". It means approximately: "Rely on God, but don't be lazy yourself". The Valar did help people and elves during The Second and The Third Ages. However, The Valar were not going to do everything themselves.


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