# Translations!



## Ledreanne313 (Jul 3, 2003)

I love translating from english into elvish! it is quite fun and helps me memorize more of the wondrous language.

If you have something for me to translate for your on sake, I will do it with pleasure. Wether it be a sentence or paragraph. 

Thank you, and I cannnot wait to here from you all. I hope this works.

Anne


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## BlackCaptain (Jul 6, 2003)

Buisness is Boomin' Anne!


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## ely (Jul 12, 2003)

Thanks Anne for the great offer  

I wanted to have something beautiful and wise translated into elvish (the language of the beautiful and the wise ), but nothing beautiful and wise came to my mind  

These are the only sentences I could think up:

* There is always hope
* Hope, love and light - three powerful forces that never cease to exist - use them for doing good

I know they aren't very good, but if you know something better, please share them with me


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## Ledreanne313 (Jul 13, 2003)

BC: I know, I can hardly keep up with it 

Ely:

There is always hope:
_Ennas esse Anui estel_ 

Hope, love and light - three powerful forces that never cease to exist - use them for doing good:
_Estel, mel, galad - neled rodyn i anui - iuith hain an ceriel maer_ 

One of mine:
_Nailye uva utuvestel ir ilye estelesse mel_ 
May it be thou will find hope when all hope is lost 

Thank you for posting something... 

Anne


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## Cian (Jul 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ledreanne313 _
> * ... Hope, love and light - three powerful forces that never cease to exist - use them for doing good: Estel, mel, ...
> 
> One of mine:
> ...



'Be it that thou wilt find' is actually attested by Tolkien in his _Namárie_ and reads rather:

_Nai hiruvalye_

Note that the future marker -uva- is affixed to the verb there. _Utúvie_ 'has found' is currently thought to be the perfect tense of verbal stem _*tuv-_

---

Most folk (that I've read) seem to use Sindarin _meleth_ for noun 'love'. Compare the film's apparent _Am meleth dîn._ (David Salo has yet to comment all his constructions yet, if this is his). 

¤


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## Ledreanne313 (Jul 19, 2003)

Yes, yes, it may be all true of what you say. Yet I have my own source and like to use that one.  

Anne


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## Cian (Jul 19, 2003)

Well, there's no better source than Tolkien in any case, and this is glossed by the Prof himself in The Road Goes Ever On:

_"Nai hir-uva-lye Valimar_ be it that find wilt-thou Valimar" ~JRRT TRGEO

¤


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## Ledreanne313 (Jul 19, 2003)

Yes yes I know that also. It was at a time that I wasn't up to look for the right spelling. And I wasn't up for a good search. So please do not be a critic of my work. 

Anne


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## Lantarion (Jul 20, 2003)

She wasn't critisizing, Ledreanne. He only corrected you in a very minor error, which is nothing to get snippy about. 

I should actualy congratulate you on mastering the language(s) so well! Wel done indeed.


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## Tar-Elenion (Jul 20, 2003)

Cian is a _he_, not a _she_.


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## king theoden (Jul 21, 2003)

Can someone translate this

Ja sam u kuæi.


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## Lantarion (Jul 21, 2003)

That is not one of Tolkien's languages, sorry.
OR do you want that trnaslated into one of his languages? 

Sorry Cian, I know you're a guy.. I keep forgetting though.


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## Bethelarien (Jul 21, 2003)

I know you already did 'there is always hope', but what about "There is still hope". Would that be different?

This one I've already translated, but I want to see if I did it right: "Listen to the words of the Evenstar: Open, open, Gate of the Elves!"

BTW, these are Sindarin, right? (dumb question)


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## Ledreanne313 (Jul 21, 2003)

Why thank you Lantarion, I wouldn't say mastered though...I'm not that good yet.

And well, these aren't really sindarin, or Quenya, but both. I am limited to certain words so I use both languages as one. But I try to stick to sindarin.

King Theoden: I don't even think that's elvish... 

Listen to the words of the Evenstar: Open, open, Gate of the Elves!:

'Last na i betho i Undomeil: edro, edro, feno i edhil!'

Anne


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## Confusticated (Jul 23, 2003)

I have a vague request, if you're interested.

You do say you use Quenya and Sindarin because you are limited, but I wonder if you would be willing to translate any elf dialog to the language in which it would have been spoken?

Perhaps some of Feanor's worlds? Angrod's to Thingol about the Kinslaying? Anything from Finrod would be great.

If you're interested in doing this, I'll say that for me the priority lies first in finding a phrase which can be translated into what is almost surely exactly how the elf actually spoke it, with the phrase itself being secondary.


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## Lantarion (Jul 24, 2003)

Ooh, that would be incredible.. I was a little disappointed at the lack of Quenya in the Sil.. Apart from "Aurë utúlien" etc. in the Nirnaeth I don't think there are many..
And I would SO put something that Fëanor said in Quenya in my sig!


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## Ledreanne313 (Jul 24, 2003)

You give me a phrase...I'll translate to Quenya 

I'm up to it. Just you tell me the phrase. I'll make it all in Quenya and as exact as possible...and it can be at any length

Anne


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## Confusticated (Jul 25, 2003)

*some quenya ones*

"Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!" 
'jail-crow' might be tricky?

And how about this one:
"Say this to Manwe Sulimo, High King of Arda: if Feanor cannot overthrow Morgoth, at least he delays not to assail him, and sits not idle in grief. And it may be that Eru has set in me a fire greater than thou knowest. Such hurt at the least will I do to the Foe of the Valar that even the mighty in the Ring of Doom shall wonder to hear it. Yea, in the end they shall follow me. Farewell!"

Couple things to note, perhaps:
Feanor - probably Curufinwe and not Feanaro?

Ring of Doom - Mahanaxar (If I recall righly this word comes partly from a Valarin word... but surely this is what the elves in Aman called it?)

Well, I hope you enjoy translating this stuff, and I look forward to the result.

Thanks


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## Cian (Jul 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Bethelarien _
> *This one I've already translated, but I want to see if I did it right: "Listen to the words of the Evenstar: Open, open, Gate of the Elves!" *



Maybe (Sindarin):

_Im Unúviel, lasto beth nîn, edro annon edhellen!_

I am Undómiel, listen to my word, open elvish gate!

I think singular 'word' and the imperatives (_lasto, edro_) work well enough here. 

_Annon edhellen_ is attested Tolkien for 'Elvish gate' (_annon_ 'great gate or door), but if a genitival construction is wanted I would follow JRRT's _Annon-in-Gelydh_ 'gate of the Noldor' ~ _annon in Edhil_

_*Unúviel_ is a possible 'expected' Sindarin cognate of Quenya _Undómiel_ ~ suggested by David Salo at least, in his 2002 commentary on the film's _Aníron_

Just my suggestions based on info to date (that I'm aware of anyway). I'm no David Salo! but indeed am a he  

¤


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## Beleg (Jul 27, 2003)

Why Kurufinwe and Not Feanaro, Nom?



> Máhanaxar, the 'Doom-ring' in which were set the thrones of the Valar whereon they sat in council (see mahalma above, p. 399). Reduced and altered from V māxananaškād. Also translated as Rithil-Anamo.



Either Mahanaxar or Rithil-Anamo, It's anybody's guess.

What I would like is the Quenya form of Beleg Cuthalion, and It's difference from the Sindarin form. 


P.S: Sindarin is a very difficult langage to learn or Understand.  

Also is their any Sindarin translation of 'Namarie' avalable?


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## Confusticated (Jul 27, 2003)

I was wrong, Beleg.


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## Bethelarien (Jul 29, 2003)

The Sindarin equivalent of "Namarie" is "Navaer", Beleg. Both mean farewell.

~Thanks for the translations, Anne and Cian. You didn't answer my question, though: Would the phrase "There is always hope" be different from "There is still hope"?

BTW, my translation of the phrase I quoted earlier was "Lasto bethir in Undomiel: Edro, Edro, Annon-in-Edhil!" I know the command for listen is 'lasto', but I didn't know how to make 'beth' (the sindarin word for 'word') plural, nor do I know what 'of' is. So that is why I asked.


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## Beleg (Jul 29, 2003)

> The Sindarin equivalent of "Namarie" is "Navaer", Beleg. Both mean farewell.



I am talking about the poem Namarie, also known as Galadriel's lament.


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## Cian (Jul 29, 2003)

Ryszard Derdzinski attempted a Sindarin version anyway (with help from Helge?) ~ check out _Naergon Galadriel_ over at website Gwaith-i-Phethdain.

¤


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## Cian (Jul 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Bethelarien _
> * ... BTW, my translation of the phrase I quoted earlier was "Lasto bethir in Undomiel: Edro, Edro, Annon-in-Edhil!" I know the command for listen is 'lasto', but I didn't know how to make 'beth' (the sindarin word for 'word') plural, nor do I know what 'of' is. So that is why I asked. *



The Sindarin for 'word' is _peth_ and its plural would be _pith_ ~ in positions where lenition is triggered _peth_ becomes _beth_

The following comments on the Sindarin genitive are from expert David Salo (I've edited them for some brevity).


_____
_The Road Goes Ever On:_ "In S[indarin] the simple genitive was usually expressed by placing the genitival noun in adjectival position (in S. after the primary noun). So _Ennyn Durin Aran Moria_ "doors (of) Durin King (of) Moria"; _Ernil i Pheriannath_ "Prince (of) the Halflings"; _Fennas nogothrim_ "gateway (of) dwarf-folk".

One may notice that where the modifying noun is itself modified by a definite article (_i_ or _in_) that it appears between the primary and modifying noun: e.g., Ernil i Pheriannath, Ost in Edhil

Several nouns in sequence may modify each other, e.g. Narn i Chîn Húrin 'Tale (of) the children (of) Húrin'

There are other modes of forming a genitive, e.g. with the marker _e_, _en_, e.g. Taur e Ndaedelos (...) (the initial consonant mutations after _in_ and _en_ require a considerable discussion on their own; but it is worth noting that they are there).

Sometimes (much more often in earlier versions of Sindarin) the genitive is expressed by the preposition _na_ 'to, towards, at': Orod-na-Thôn "Mountain of Pine(s)".

An English "of" expressing point of origin may be expressed by _o_ 'from' Celebrimbor o Eregion
Celebrimbor of (from) Eregion

There is also a rare genitive suffix in -a, attached to the modifying noun, found almost entirely with names:

Dagnir Glaurunga Bar Beora 
Killer of Glaurung House of Beor

and perhaps Naugla- mír Dwarf's jewel - but here the form given reflects a name originally invented in a non-Sindarin elvish tongue, which may have been imperfectly re-adapted to Sindarin, as the part of the Silmarillion which deals with the Nauglamir appears to have been very little revised. The name Beor, in Tolkien's final intention was intended not to be Sindarin; the name Glaurung is phonetically inappropriate for Sindarin (i.e., instead of Glórung); and the genitival suffix -a is seen in the name Tûr Haretha ("Barrow of the Lady") appearing in the language of the Haladin (which at one time Tolkien thought of as identical to that of the Beorians -- see _The War of the Jewels_ pp. 217, 226). The genitive ending -a may therefore have been adopted by Sindarin for use with these foreign words.

Finally, the genitive may be expressed by creating a compound word though the relationship between the words is more general and may express ideas other than a pure genitive: Cír-dan "Shipmaker, Maker of Ships", Menel-vagor "Sky-swordsman, Swordsman of the sky"; than-gail "shield-wall, fence of shields"; "Orodruin "Mountain of Fire, Fiery Mountain"; Nenuial "Water of Twilight". The distinction between the type of compound seen in the last two and a two-noun genitive construction (e.g., orod ruin, nen uial) is slim, a difference only being notable when changes at the word boundary (like lenition) have taken place, or when the word has acquired a specialized meaning. ~DS
_____

¤


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## Ledreanne313 (Jul 29, 2003)

I am very happy for you, Cian, that you have mastered Tolkien's Languages and that you are an expert. Yet this thread is for me to translate for others. If you would please not post so much information. I think it would be a good idea for you to make your own thread. Yet thank you for that information, this is just not the place.

Anne


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## Ledreanne313 (Sep 14, 2003)

Nóm- I did not translate the jail Crow one, yet I tried the other. I have done it using one source and couldn't do more than half, yet I am going to try again to fill in some more before I post it here. Sorry it is taking so long, yet I have been very busy.

And also, I have started a new 'project'. I am going to attempt at translating the Snow-white song in The Fellowship of the Ring into Quenya as it was origanally sung. Though that may take some time.

Anne


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## olias (Feb 5, 2005)

Hello! A friend of mine is in need of a translation. I wondered if you could help her. Here's the phrase ...

"One sees clearly only with the heart. Everything essential is invisible to the eyes."

Thank you so much for your help!


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## Elhath (Feb 6, 2005)

Olias, in Quenya I'd say

"Er órenen cenë téro. Ilya yessëa* úcénima hendunna."

As for Sindarin, maybe (clarifyingly):

"Pen tíra lân eriol na 'ûr. Udíraid naid bain nedhrin** a chinn."


* This 1935-40 word ('primary') might also be replaceable with older 1910-20's QL word _vildima_ 'essential, imperative' (from a "Qenya" consonantal base ?VLD-?).

** a hypothetical adj. pl. from root (E)NED 'center, middle'.


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## olias (Feb 8, 2005)

Fantastic Elhath! I'm going to pass this along to her now. She will be extremely happy!

Thank you!!!


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## Uritheas (Feb 8, 2005)

Could you translate:
Ever mind the rule of three,
Three times what thou givest returns to thee
Tis lesson well, thou must learn,
Thou only gets what thou dost earn!


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## Elhath (Feb 9, 2005)

Hmm, maybe thusly, I somehow like the way it sounds too:

_Á voro sana neldëo namna:
Tai nellumë antal entulë lyenna
Sië saitalë sina márië cenda
An netil er lenen námo carna!_*


* As in the Finnish object phrase [_sinun_] _itse ansaitsemasi_ or _itsesi ansaitseman_ 'something you earned in person, your self-earned thing(s)'; with the Quenya passive participle + instrumental corresponding with Finnish 3rd act. part. (standing as a noun) with genitive (which is how _turun_ or _turún' ambartanen_ in Silm. XXI/UT:138 would be translated).
?_Net-_ 'get' is from QL:66.


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## Thorondor (Feb 9, 2005)

Ok, I'm want to translate a couple words into elvish:

Truth, Knowledge, Strength, Love.

I'd also want to get it written in Elvish writing if anyone knows how to do that...
Thanks


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## Elhath (Feb 10, 2005)

Thorondor said:


> Ok, I'm want to translate a couple words into elvish:
> 
> Truth, Knowledge, Strength, Love.



Which Elvish? In Quenya these can be estimated as: *anwië, ista, tuo *(physical strength)*, melmë*.




Thorondor said:


> I'd also want to get it written in Elvish writing if anyone knows how to do that...



There are many Elvish alphabets, too, but I'm assuming that you mean Tengwar. Change the font here to some Tengwar TTF ("Quenya", "Sindarin", or "Noldorin" by Dan Smith shows the vowel-marks' places best):

`C5nT`V
`B81E
1U`N
tRjtR

If you want to write them in a row and use some comma between, you can type = or Alt+0136.


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## Sarina (Feb 10, 2005)

Can someone please help me out?? I don't have the elf mind to do this thing ... it's for a dorky elf-loving girl ... lol 

Can you translate (in Quenya, I suppose) :
" You ain't seen nothing you, my dorky dolfin girl "
(it can also be : dorky elf girl instead of dorky dolfin girl ... but I'd prefer the former )
(something along the lines of dorky ... )
Thanks a lot to anyone who's willing to help !
X
Sarina

(I already made a new thread, before I saw this, my mistake)


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## Elhath (Feb 11, 2005)

Sarina said:


> Can you translate (in Quenya, I suppose) :
> " You ain't seen nothing you, my dorky dolfin girl "


I think Quenya is the only one paying off in the attempt of this, too... (stress is marked with u)

*Lá ecéniet er ma, (ce) aucima nosselingwi-wendellenya!* "You haven't seen anything yet..."

*_aucima_ 'foolish' < (!_aucë_ 'fool') < "Qenya" _auk_, QL:33.
_-llë_ is a diminutive ending (Engl. -let, -ling).
*_nosselingwë_ "fish of family", my newword (also keeping in mind the likely Greek base-word _delphys_ 'womb'; P.E. *o-no- 'give birth')... We don't know 'dolphin' from any Q-era. Another possibility is a loan + phonetic adaptation: *_lelfin_, *_lelfíno_?

In reconstructed Sindarin this might perhaps be _Ú-dírannech na hí nad, nothlimwenneg dugdhol_ ("DOOG-tholl", not "dug'd-hole").


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## Sarina (Feb 12, 2005)

Thank you so much !!

All the best to you, I wish you a great day, from Belgian grounds out !
X !
Sarina ~


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## Theta Wrensong (Feb 14, 2005)

Elhath said:


> Olias, in Quenya I'd say
> 
> "Er órenen cenë téro. Ilya yessëa* úcénima hendunna."
> 
> ...


 
Hello, I am new to this forum, but I am very interested in the languages of Middle Earth. How exactly does one pronounce the above translations? Are the vowel and consonnant sounds similar to Gaelic? Or closer to Germanic languages?

Thanks. Please reply to me here or at my e-mail address [email protected]


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## Elhath (Feb 14, 2005)

Theta, a Quenya pronunciation guide of a better kind can be found here (1)... and a Sindarin one here (2). I think Quenya's phonemics are closest to Finnish or Latin/Spanish, while Sindarin sounds mostly like Welsh (though Sindarin's orthography is much simpler, and Welsh doesn't have the "Y" vowel, familiar also from French [_l*u*ne_], German [ü] and Icelandic [ý]).

(1) one can also listen to Tolkien himself recite the _Namárië_ here.
(2) or if you want to hear some Sindarin text straightway, see this old translation of Pater Noster by R. Derdzinski.


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## Elthir (Feb 15, 2005)

> '*i* - as in _f*i*t_ or _th*i*n_, never has the sound as in _f*i*ght_. See "consonants", too.' Sindarin phonology by Lothenon (linked above)


 
In RGEO at least, the example given for Sindarin short i is 'sick' long i as in 'see'. I also note Appendix E and Arden Smith's reply with respect to short i ...



> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 23:27:23 -0800. From: (...) (Arden R. Smith) Subject: Re: Beginner's Question: Short "i" in Quenya/Sindarin
> 
> Jim Burton wrote (38.48): 'This is a simple phoenetic question that someone should have no trouble answering. My understanding is that the vowel "i" in Quenya and Sindarin is pronounced as in Spanish or French. Does that apply to a short "i" as well? For example, is the initial i sound in "Gilthoniel" or "Tinuviel" more like English "fit" or like French "lit"?'
> 
> ...


 


*Galin*


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## Elhath (Feb 15, 2005)

Yes, I think "fit" and "thin" can sometimes make the I more "lax", a bit towards E, perhaps, and with s- ("sick") the I might come out more clear (and hence Elvish proper). If that's what you meant.

Though both of them have nasal sounds, Quenya and Sindarin are definitely not "spoken-through-the-nose" languages, NOR do the vowels in them "laxen" (or become more Schwa-like) as in English, Portuguese, etc.


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## Elthir (Feb 15, 2005)

Don't both the vowels in _fit_ and _sick _(basically) represent a difference of quality compared to the vowel sound in _see ... _and

Arden Smith seems to be replying that the quality should be like the i in _machine_ in both short and long examples, emphasizing Tolkien's _irrespective of quantity_, and thus (if indeed I am not astray here), not the sound heard in _fit_ (or even _sick_ as given in RGEO) for Sindarin short i.

*Galin*


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## Theta Wrensong (Feb 15, 2005)

Thank you for your help and the links. I found the spoken elvish language from the films to be quite beautiful, and I would love to learn to speak, read, and write elvish one of these days. Again, thanks.


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## Elhath (Feb 15, 2005)

Galin said:


> Don't both the vowels in fit and sick (basically) represent a difference of quality compared to the vowel sound in see


I don't think I hear such "change of quality" when I pronounce them, only quantity; but then again 1) I'm no phonology expert, and 2) I'm not a native (UK or US) English speaker.



Galin said:


> Arden Smith seems to be replying that the quality should be like the i in machine in both short and long examples, emphasizing Tolkien's irrespective of quantity, and thus (if indeed I am not astray here), not the sound heard in fit (or even sick as given in RGEO) for Sindarin short i.


Again, I'm not expert, but with all the more reason I think we might do well to abide by Tolkien's original pronunciation examples here, should I come to advise any English speakers in "Elvish".


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## AuriniaRegina (Feb 25, 2005)

I´d be very grateful if someone could translate the following sentence coz I´ve got to write a kind of charaterization for one of my dearest friends and I don´t want everyone to know what I´m telling her and the Elvish sentence is meant to be a surprise.

"Hail thee my little butterfly, nothing will ever come between us, I wish you all the joy one can have."

Thank you so much!

Bea from Germany


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## Elhath (Feb 27, 2005)

> "Hail thee my little butterfly, nothing will ever come between us, I wish you all the joy one can have."

My suggestion for an idiomatical Sindarin (Grey-elven) phrase:

*Aia, gwilwiletheg *(or *gwilwileth dithen*) *nín; unad telitha vûr immen; le ieston i 'las ban i tôr iesto.*

(lit. *"that one can wish." )


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## AuriniaRegina (Feb 27, 2005)

Thanks so much, she´ll LOVE that!

Bea


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## Ardamir the Blessed (Feb 27, 2005)

Can anyone translate _Finduilas_ and _Findóriel_ to English, please?


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## fourtwonine (Mar 3, 2005)

i would like to translate either "muse" or "inspiration" into quenya, please...

thanks!!!


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## Elhath (Mar 4, 2005)

Maybe **Lindiel* could stand for "Muse" in High-Elven, considering where the word comes from (#)..?

"Inspiration" might be translatable with *orië* "mental urge"*, *siulë* "incitement" or *hórë* "impulse" (depending on the context; root KHOR also yields *hórëa* "impulsive").


* Cf. also JRRT's phrase *orë nin caritas* "I feel moved to do so, it impels for me to do it" (_Vinyar Tengwar_ #41 p. 13).


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## fourtwonine (Mar 4, 2005)

am i mistaken or is *Lindiel* an elvish name???

are you taking this from *Lindele* (music)??? supposedly the word music comes from "muse", so...

thanks!!!


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## Raithnait (Mar 4, 2005)

Wondering if I could get some Shakespeare translated into Quenya:

"To be, or not to be, that is the question..."

and

"To sleep, perchance to dream..." 

And if I could also get the second one translated into Sindarin also that would totally rock... 

and, doesn't 'butterfly' translate to "wilwarin"?

also, as a former student of Tolkien's languages(several years ago), I was just wondering which source you use as the basis for your translations...


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## Elhath (Mar 4, 2005)

>am i mistaken or is Lindiel an elvish name???
>
>are you taking this from Lindele (music)??? supposedly the word music comes >from "muse", so...

Rather from *lindë*, though not from any one word particularly (but the root LIN/GLIN).

>Wondering if I could get some Shakespeare translated into Quenya:
>
>"To be, or not to be, that is the question..."

*Ná var umë, é tana maquetta...*

>"To sleep, perchance to dream..."
>
>And if I could also get the second one translated into Sindarin also
>that would totally rock...

Q: *Lorë, cé óla...*
S: _Losto, ge oltho..._ (*_losto_, ?_ge_)

>and, doesn't 'butterfly' translate to "wilwarin"?

In Quenya, yes.

>also, as a former student of Tolkien's languages(several years ago), I was
>just wondering which source you use as the basis for your translations...

My "source" are all of the actual texts by JRRT (published in the books), plus what logical arguments can be made from them (also with the help of comparative linguistics); see for instance

http://www.elvish.org/resources.html
http://nellardo.com/lang/elf/faq.html#section1

(on Quenya)
http://www.xs4all.nl/~xelag/quenya.html
http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/qcourse.htm
http//www.uib.no/People/hnohf/wordlists.htm


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## Ardamir the Blessed (Mar 15, 2005)

I suppose that it is not possible to translate the words 'English', 'Swedish' and 'Finnish' into any of Tolkien's invented languages? How about Anglo-Saxon/Old English?


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## Elhath (Mar 15, 2005)

There can hardly ever be any "standard" translations for IRL names or adjectives, let alone any exact "standards" or guidelines for even the attempt to infer modern terms... but why should there be? I for one don't see Q & S so much as "ordinary" languages with preset "words", but more as highly beautiful poetic establishments (where rather everyone is entitled to a shot); even if one needs to know some rules (grammar as it can be reconstructed) before attempting to convey a meaning in them.

So here are my particular neo-communicative "vocal paintings" (Quenya):

**Ingilnórëa* ( from JRRT's word, LT1:256 )
**Suirenórëa* ( instead of *_Hwér_V_nórëa_ [as if *swed- were prim. Eldarin]; V = some vowel ), **Suirëa*?
**Orformenya* ( < Greco-Lat. _hyperboreus_ ), **Suomëa* ( ~ *_Nendórëa_?[1] )

Trying to maintain at least some recognisability for such translations may of course be wise (when possible), especially if the recipient is not that much familiar with the etymology of the appropriate names (or their equivalents) in the older European languages.

In Old English, "English" ( the adjective! ) is written as *Englisc* ( the E is pronounced as in "_e_nsign", not as in "_i_ngress"; SC = sh ). Some accessory ( having _níw-_? ) might be in order if the reference is to some modern thing. As for the other (unsurprisingly unrecorded) adjectives, my amateur approximations for their closest equivalents are:
**Swéolendisc*
**Cwénisc* ( = **Finnisc* [originally meant "Lappish"]? )

( the O.E. noun "language, -speech" is _gereord_, neut. : _Engliscgereord_ "English", the language; for the other expressions see http://dontgohere.nu/oe/as-bt/read.htm?page_nr=252 )


[1] Cf. also the loan _casar_ vs. native (Eldarin) _nauco_, _norno_ -- _Suomi_ is the Finnish name of Finland.


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## Scatha (Mar 15, 2005)

I see you have taken Ardalambion as one of your sources, Elhath. I have been meaning to look into that course for quite some time, yet never found the time to do so.

I wonder if I can pick your brain on a sentance?

"Do not meddle in the affairs of sleeping dragons, for thou art crunchy."


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## Elhath (Mar 15, 2005)

> "Do not meddle in the affairs of sleeping dragons, for thou art crunchy."

Q: * *Álalyë fasta engwennar lórala (h)lócion, an nalyë escëa.*

If _Markirya_ is anything to go by, active participles don't appear to have a distinct plural form. _Hlócë_ is an older form of _lócë_.


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## Ardamir the Blessed (Mar 16, 2005)

Thank you, *Elhath*. I am going to create a homepage, and I am planning to use those (along with English translations) on the very first page, where you will be able to choose what language you want to read my homepage in. So, I suppose I will use _Ingilnórëa_, _Suirenórëa_ and _Orformenya_, respectively.


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## Ardamir the Blessed (Mar 17, 2005)

*Elhath*: Do your translations stand for the *languages*, and not the nationalities or peoples? I meant the languages.

Can anyone translate 'the study of Arda' and 'the study of Eä' into any of Tolkien's invented languages?


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## Elhath (Mar 18, 2005)

Adjectives can be used ( alone ) as nouns in Quenya ( _alamanya_, _apanóna_, _vanima_, etc. ). The word "Quenya" itself also employs a nominative word ending ( _-ya_ ) more often seen in adjectives.

_> 'the study of Arda' and 'the study of Eä'_

_(i) ñólë Ardo_, _(i) ñólë Eö_ ( _i_ being a definite article not always appearing ).


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## Scatha (Mar 18, 2005)

Thank you very much, Elhath.


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## Ardamir the Blessed (Mar 18, 2005)

*Elhath* posted:


> Adjectives can be used ( alone ) as nouns in Quenya ( _alamanya_, _apanóna_, _vanima_, etc. ). The word "Quenya" itself also employs a nominative word ending ( _-ya_ ) more often seen in adjectives.


 I see.

Would _Ardanólë_ and _Eänólë_ work as well?


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## Elhath (Mar 19, 2005)

Ardamir, I very much think that they would, even to describe such "school subjects" ( or article topics ) as if they were. These may be Third Age forms, though in Valinor *_Ardangólë_ and *_Eängólë_ might have been preferred[1] ( since _ñólë_ comes from the root NGOL; cf. the spelling of _Moringotto_ "Morgoth" ).


[1] I.e., in pronunciation (and hence in our Latin letters transcription); in Tengwar as I understand it I would in any case use Ñoldo ( Tengwa #19 ) instead of Númen ( #17 ) between the A and the long O.


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## Ardamir the Blessed (Mar 19, 2005)

Once again, thank you *Elhath*.


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## Ingwë (Apr 9, 2005)

Can you translate this: 
_The world is changing: I fell it in the water, I feel it in the Earth and I smell it in the air._
This is my favouite sentence from LotR.


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## Elhath (Apr 9, 2005)

Ingwë,

In (Salo's) Sindarin (Grey-elven): http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/movie_fotr.htm#presta
In Quenya (High-elven): _i Ambar ahyëa, tenyanyes nenessë, tenyanyes cemendë ar nustanyes vistassë._


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## Ingwë (Apr 10, 2005)

Thank you very much. I love this sentence. Look at the signature.


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## Barliman Butterbur (May 2, 2005)

*Movie, linguistics fans learn about Middle Earth languages*

Sunday, May 1, 2005

By _Katherine Rosenberg_

BLOOMINGTON -- John Swartz bolted straight up in his chair, craning his neck to catch a glimpse of the projection screen in the Bloomington Public Library's basement Saturday afternoon.

"The Lord of the Rings" trilogy tends to have that effect on people.

In fact, David Salo, the person responsible for decoding the languages of Middle Earth for the big screen realization of J.R.R. Tolkien's novels was unable to begin his speaking engagement without mentioning the obvious popularity of the films.

"Although it's been over a year since the last one of the films in the trilogy was released, I gather it's still somewhat popular," Salo joked to an audience of nearly 150 people who gathered at the library to hear Salo explain the work he did for the movies.

Some, like 9-year-old Swartz, lit up each time the demonstration of Salo's language work was shown on the screen via the movies. Others like his mother, Lisa, and brother Mark, looked full of intrigue while Salo explained how he brought the Tolkien-born Elvish dialects to the movie world.

Jan Sussina, a professor in the English Department at Illinois State University and a linguistics enthusiast went to hear Salo speak about the undertaking of recreating, inventing and relaying of a language for the films. Sussina said he learned of the event when he saw a poster for the event during one of his frequent trips to the public library.

"I was really excited to hear about this. We teach 'The Hobbit' and 'The Lord of the Rings' over in the English department and the language of those books is something I was excited to learn more about. I know fantasy literature appeals to a large number of people, myself included," Sussina said.

He also was sure his students would be interested in the event, so he made copies of the poster and distributed them to his classes.

"The language does sound very convincing in the films, and I like the idea that they really went into detail to make it authentic," he added. That attention to detail fell on the shoulders of Salo, who spent roughly five years working on the project, on and off.

As English majors at ISU, students Ryan Kerr, 21, and Meghan Adams, 20, were interested in the topic from a linguistic standpoint as well.

"I've read a lot about Elvish languages but I've never had a chance to really hear them, so I thought this would be interesting," Adams said.

"I'm a very big fan of the books, much more so than the movies," Kerr said. He and Adams may have been the type of people Salo had in mind when he began this adventure, with the goal of preserving Tolkien's own language in the movie version.

"This is a language that has depth; this is a language that has complexity. It may have exceptional beauty, but its just the same as an ordinary language in the real world," Salo explained, accounting for the patterns he followed to fill in the missing pieces of dialogue.

Reference librarian Karen Moen coordinated the program, bringing Salo to the area although he does not usually do this type of presentation. In a brief introduction, she thanked the Friends of the Bloomington public library and attributed them for making the event possible.

Source: http://www.pantagraph.com/stories/050105/new_20050501032.shtml

Barley


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## Elhath (May 4, 2005)

Thank you very much, Barley. I might have missed that if you hadn't posted it.

(Sometimes I almost wish I lived in the States, if only for the chance to go pose nosy questions to Salo's lectures... )


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## Penngaladh (May 13, 2005)

There are not just in the States experts like Salo, even though most Elfconners live in the US. There are a lots of folks like Salo in Europe, too. For instance the well-known H. K. Fauskanger. And I have to admit that I'm not realy fond of the Elfcomers, cause they are responsible for a big lack of information concerning Tolkiens languags.


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