# Eä - Ilúvatar's act of creation, a singular event?



## Walter (Sep 12, 2002)

Was Ilúvatars act of creation - as quoted above - a singular event?


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## Dwimmerlaik (Sep 12, 2002)

Stars were certainly a part of the night sky of ME,and we all know what travel around stars,(especially SF fan's).
Although I don't believe Tolkien had any thought of publishing any speculation's on this issue,I believe that he has left the"door open"on this issue by not stating a case for or against.
Tolkien was a compositer of myths and legend's,and he combined these with his own creation's.Since the myth's and legend's were mainly of ancient origin,they had no connection with the modern discovery's of the galaxy as we know it,and had more lineage in the creationist myth's of the ancient's.
As the event's of ME were to have happened well before our time,it should not be surprising that no mention of other worlds(other than the void)would be commented on at all.
It could also be argued that Tolkien ignored this possibility altogether by placing Valinor in Ea,as opposed to a conventional norm' of placing the realm of the god's on a higher plane.
All speculation.


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## Ancalagon (Sep 12, 2002)

> Or do we have to distinguish and he just let the world be and went on "making" spirits, but no matter?



This point interests me Walter; because I beleive that the continual creation of spirits is very much a part of Eru's continuation in populating Arda. If only Eru can give life, then the 'spirit' or 'soul' of the First and Secondborn continues. As long as Elves and Men and all living beings procreate, they must, in this circle of life, be embelished with a spirit to inhabit the physical body. This is particularly prevalent in the race of Men, who grew rapidly, therefore each being gifted life through Eru only. So, one then must consider whether these 'souls' are lying in wait from the beginning, or are they each a new creation of Eru triggered by conception? Alternatively, should we accept the re-incarnation theory especially for the race of Men. 

I do not beleive however that any more Maiar were created after his original 'mind explosion' that obviously gave life to the Ainur as we understand them. Everything originates from the one. He alone is responsible for gifting life. Yet, ever after he must sustain those children of which he ultimately is the father, spiritually. So, the process of creating spirits continues until his last child is born and Arda ends. It really is quite an immaculate conception when you think about it


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## Walter (Sep 12, 2002)

Anc, your points are sure valid and make a lot of sense. 

I have spent a little while reading before I posted this thread and - aside from the Sil - the Letters (esp. #131, 153 and 212 IIRC) where Tolkien tells some more about his "genesis" reveal some more about his ideas of "creation" (in relation to "sub-creation" and "making") from a metaphysical point of view. But - as always - a lot more is left open for the reader to interpret.

However, what I feel could be a flaw in your theory - if I understand it correctly - is, that in this case Eru would more or less constantly be busied creating new spirits, which must be a tiring task...

Wouldn't it be more efficient if, let's say the Imperishable Flame not only represents the energy (and btw. inherently the matter according to Einsteins equation) of the world, but also the pool of spirit? This could guarantee a constant equilibrium of spirit, being in a flow as it is consumed by forming of spirited life and freed by the death of others, or - according to some eastern philosophies (e.g. Chi) - everything is transcended by this spiritual energy. In this case it would save Eru from having to "create" it each time individually.


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## Ancalagon (Sep 12, 2002)

Eä; Let it be, another life is created and the creator smiles

I think that Iluvatar would be active in endorsing each new life as it arrives. Whereas the universe he creates is self-expanding, constantly the violence and turmoil spreads outwards, growing into new worlds, stars, galaxies etc. Whereas life is a different matter in his eyes, for these are his children, his First and Secondborn, as such he would simply acknowledge each conception with a part of his own soul. If that be the Flame Imperishable, so be it, but he is central to it;


> To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren. He had gone often alone into the void places seeking the Imperishable Flame; for desire grew hot within him to bring into Being things of his own, and it seemed to him that Ilúvatar took no thought for the Void, and he was impatient of its emptiness. Yet he found not the Fire, for it is with Ilúvatar.


As far as I can gather, the Flame is the very essence of being, and it resides with Eru, therefore he would impart each 'soul' from within himself!!!

If that makes any sense???


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## Lhunithiliel (Sep 13, 2002)

If I may join this discussion, I'd just repeat smth. I said in that other thread:


> In my understanding, there is _energy _ in this Universe that by the power of some natural laws can take forms. This is how I understand everything related to the "mind" / "spirit" - issue.


I think of Eru as actually being those "natural laws".
Nature constantly creates.
So, I would never believe that Nature, called by Tolkien Eru, would ever stop creating - new spirits, new life-forms, new worlds...

Other issue is whether Tolkien really meant Eru to represent Nature OR, being a deep believer and worshiper of the Christian religion, he meant Eru = God the Creator.


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## Walter (Sep 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ancalagon _
> As far as I can gather, the Flame is the very essence of being, and it resides with Eru, therefore he would impart each 'soul' from within himself


Whilst I totally agree with the first part of this sentence I find some discrepancy of the second half with the Sil _.. And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World..._ 

----
Lhunithiliel of course you may join (in case your introductional question was not a rhetorical one) and while I personally can very much relate to your understanding of nature, I also agree that Tolkien would've probably objected to this theory.


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## Lhunithiliel (Sep 14, 2002)

> Walter:
> .......while I personally can very much relate to your understanding of nature, I also agree that Tolkien would've probably objected to this theory.


I've expected it to be so! 
I wonder, which of these two ideas of the Universe and Life in it, is better, truer and more realistic. 
To presume and accept that there is an existing _someone_ who has created life in the Universe and keeps on creating new worlds and life-forms, through the "_Flame Imperishable_ " .... ??? Then WHO is he? WHERE does he come from? WHO has created HIM? HOW has he gained the strength, the power and the authority to do so?... And in this line of thoughts one may reach to the "theory" of Izak Azimov in the "Foundation" ... or accept the "theory" of D.Adams in the "Galaxy Hitch-hiker"   
I strongly doubt Tolkien had THAT in mind! 

Yet, isn't it that in all the mythologies of the human peoples on this planet there ALWAYS is one _CREATOR_ and this ONE seems content enough with what he has achieved in creating a world and the creatures in it, and there is no (I think) sufficient information on these "Gods" to have been involved in the creation of some other worlds....
Which finally could mean that ONE "Eru" deals with ONE world only - the world of his creation. 
NATURE, on the other hand, deals with the creation of OTHER worlds.
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In addition:
from HOME vol. 4 - The Shaping of Middle Earth: 



> Thus spake the prophecy of Mandos, which he declared in Valmar at the judgement of the Gods, and the rumour of it was whispered among all the Elves of the West: when the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth shall come back through the Door out of the Timeless Night; and he shall destroy the Sun and the Moon, but Earendel shall come upon him as a white flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the last battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Melko, and on his right shall stand Fionwe and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, Conqueror of Fate, and it shall be the black sword of Turin that deals unto Melko his death and final end; and so shall the children of Hurin and all Men be avenged.
> 
> Thereafter shall the Silmarils' be recovered out of sea and earth and air; for Earendel shall descend and yield up that flame that he hath had in keeping. Then Feanor shall bear the Three and yield them unto Yavanna Palurien; and she will break them and with their fire rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth; and the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the light goes out all over the world. In that light the Gods will again grow young, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Iluvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy speaks not, save of Turin only, and him it names among the Gods.


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## pohuist (Sep 16, 2002)

I believe that the Sil is much older than anything Asymov wrote.

If you adhere to the view that Bombadil and Golberry are some spirits other than Ainur, they must have been created some time after.

On a differnt note:



> Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he.





> In the beginning Eru, the One, who in the Elvish tongue is named Ilúvatar, made the Ainur of his thought; and they made a great Music before him.


Now, Sauron was one of the Ainur. Nothing could be older. Who and when created/maked the "nameless things".


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## Thorondor_ (Jul 14, 2005)

Concerning the original question, I interpret Ainulindale as saying that Ea was the first act of creation by Eru.


> Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he.


I guess there are two variants:
- it was a slip of the pen;
- those things existed before the _evil_ Sauron existed.


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## ingolmo (Jul 16, 2005)

It was just a thought that Eru had, and Ea was created. It was the greatest, bu the most complete work of creation. Of course, the inspiration was the Ainur, without which it couldn't have been done.


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## Thorondor_ (Oct 8, 2005)

Interestingly enough, in "The theory of the work", HoME 9, it is stated that:


> Sauron says the world is round. There is nothing outside but Night - and other worlds


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## Walter (Oct 10, 2005)

> Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he.


Those familiar enough with Tolkien's sources, will probably recognize this as an allusion to Niddhogg and the other unnamed serpents gnawing at the roots of the world-ash Yggdrasil...



> Three roots do spread in threefold ways
> beneath the ash Yggdrasil:
> dwell Etins 'neath one, 'neath the other, Hel,
> 'neath the third; Midhgardhr's men.
> ...


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