# Dunedain



## triple3 (Jul 19, 2002)

ok-

i need some clarifications


I understand all about the Dunedain. I know that their numbers dwindled and bloodline intermixed. So then what makes the dunedain in the lord of the rings different than the common folk of gondor? Weren't the steward's from numenor and therefore dunedain? 
Were the dunedain in the LOTR just the dunedain that were in really close lineage to Elendil? The ones like Elesser that were in hiding and wanderers.


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## Legolas_lover12 (Jul 19, 2002)

well, they wre special becuase they had more of numenorian blood than anyone else. they were directly descended from elendil who was descended from elros. who was elrond's brother. and chose to be a man and was the first king of numenor. and aragorn is the rightful king. boom. bang. done.


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## HLGStrider (Jul 20, 2002)

Also, if you are a Dunadein you can count on a good deal longer life, foresight, heartyness, and you get to be handsome and and and... it's not a bad thing.


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## Rúmil (Jul 20, 2002)

Gondor was a very large empire, and at the time of its might adopted an expansionist policy. Therefore, many Númenoreans married Men of Twilight, and their blood was mingled with those. Up in Arnor, they were much more conservative,and the blood of the West was kept pure.


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## Legolas_lover12 (Jul 20, 2002)

and aragorn was from arnor. well, his descendants were. got it yet???


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## Lantarion (Jul 20, 2002)

Well yes, but Aragorn's ancestors wee also from Númenor, which happens to be a much cooler place than Arnor.  If you remember, Elendil set off from Westernesse before it was crunched with his two sons, Isildur and Anarion. Aragorn was Isildur's Heir. So there. 
And welcome to the forums, Triple3! I see you are not wholly a newbie, and I hope your info can give insight to those who are.


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## Gil-Galad (Jul 20, 2002)

I would add something more to these answers.The Dunedain,most of them were protected,if it would be said so,from Elrond.I mean that they were helped at any time and they have some more aims than people of Gondor.People of Gondor just lived their lives without any aim.They didn't remember the great Numenorians of the past.But the Dunedain did.They had an aim,they remember the past and traditions.That made them not quite different from Numenorian people from past.


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## indexerkevin (Jul 21, 2002)

My first official post!

Just my 2 cents: Dundedain means simply Men of the West. Originally it referred simply to the Numenoreans. Later it came to represent the exiles of Numenor, Elendil and sons and followers. One clarification I'd like to make. I don't believe Elendil was descended from Elros. That would make for some strange genetics for Elessar and Arwen's children! In fact he was the just the Lord of Andunie, like a prince of Numenor but not a king, and basically the leader of a cult of Numenoreans called the Faithful Numenoreans, who wished to remain elf-friends when this became forbidden. Perceiving the folly of Ar-Pharazon, he and his followers made preparations to book from Numenor when the un-faithful Numenoreans sailed off to assail the Undying Lands.

Driven by the storm, Elendil's ship landed in the north and he founded the realm of Arnor, while Isildur and Anorien's ships were driven to the south and they then founded the realm of Gondor. Originally Arnor was the bomb since Elendil ruled it as High King and he hung out there near his bud Gil-Galad.

After the fall of Arnor, the men of Arnor, or more accurately the men of Arthedain since the Dunedain of Cardolan and Rhudaur were all killed, driven off, or corrupted, became known as the Dunedain, mainly because they had nothing else to be called since they were kingdom-less, though they kept alive the kingly succession via chieftains. The men of Gondor were also Dunedain but they were not called that. This point is confusing but at several points Tolkien makes it clear both are Dunedain. Recall Faramir saying "perhaps you detect an air of Westernesse" a term interchangeable with Dunedain, literally the Westron translation of the Elvish "Dunedain". The men of Gondor used the term Westernesse to refer to the "blood of Numenor in exile" while the remnants of the northern line used Dunedain, another aspect also being that the northern men kept much closer ties to elves ( Elrond and Cirdan) than in the south. Thus they used the elvish word and the men of Gondor used the Westron.

It is true as pointed out that the blood of Numenor was diminished faster in Gondor after the end of the line of kings, but this also varied by person. In fact Boromir is a degraded man, much closer to the Rohihhrim in living for lust of battle and great deeds, while in both Denethor and Faramir it is made abundantly clear that the blood of Numenor is almost pure. This notion permeates Tolkien's world, that while a race may fall into decay, at any moment the right combination of genes and upbringing can produce the right men for the job, as in Aragorn and Faramir, and the race be redeemed, the Dundedain of the north and south respectively.


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## Rúmil (Jul 21, 2002)

Just one mistake to pick out: Aragorn _was_ descended from Elros. Silmarien, the first daughter of Tar Elendil, the grandson of Elros, espoused the lord Elatan of Adúnië, and Amandil father of Elendil was her descendent through many generations. Thus Aragorn is descended from Elros, Eärendil, Idril, Turgon, Fingolfin, and finally at a long distance from Finwë the first High King of the Noldor, the father of Fëanor. Obviously something to be proud of.


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## indexerkevin (Jul 21, 2002)

*Thanks Rumil*

Thanks for the info. I didn't know that. 

Also I wanted to soften my words about Boromir a bit. I meant "degraded" in terms of the blood of Numenor vs the Men of Twilight, not that he was a bad guy per se.


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## HLGStrider (Jul 21, 2002)

Good for the softening... there is at least one rampant Boromir defender wandering free around here... and never say anything bad about Gollum or you will be stalked by that group...

Being related to Elros wouldn't cause much weird blood considering how many generations had passed... A couple thousand?


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## Rúmil (Jul 21, 2002)

Argh! a couple thousand ? No, definitely! About sixty, I would say. There are thirty-nine generations from Aragorn to Elendil, says so in appendix A and in UT (Gladden Fields). That's for three thousand years. In the "real" world, the average number of generations separating us from Christ is 80. Allowing for the much longer span of the Númenoreans in the second age, over the same period, there would be less generations from Elros to Elendil. I'm also guessing that the Faithful had a longer span than the King's Men: whereas Gimilkhâd father of Ar-Pharazôn died of old age at 198, Elendil was slain at the siege of Barad-dûr at 322, while obviously in top physical shape. So while there were 15 Kings from Elros to Ar-Pharazôn, I would guess that less generations separate Elros from Elendil. I would say twenty. Add that up to the definite 39 from Elendil to Aragorn, and round it up, it makes sixty.


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## Legolas_lover12 (Jul 21, 2002)

63 generations. 

aragorn actually married his great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great.........................u get it, there r 62 greats in all..........................aunt. more or less.


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## HLGStrider (Jul 21, 2002)

I knew it wasn't a thousand... I was exaggerating... Shoulda put a smiley face in there... Though I did think it was more than 63... I read the unfinished tales but I never took the time to do the math. The only math I did do was trying to figure out how old Aragorn was and I got that wrong by I think three years.... oh well.


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## Legolas_lover12 (Jul 21, 2002)

yeah, i did the math. it took a little while. but it is 63. and she is his great, great, great.............................aunt. more or less.


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## Tar-Elenion (Jul 21, 2002)

Less than more, Arwen and Aragorn are _cousins_, not aunt and nephew.


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## lilhobo (Jul 22, 2002)

so what you are saying is that JRR is a racist redneck, with a view of preserving the Aryan race???


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## Legolas_lover12 (Jul 22, 2002)

well, acctually they're kinda both. that is one weird fam!!!!!


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## triple3 (Jul 22, 2002)

hey thanks

I was well aware of all the lineages and stuff and the line of Elros.
I think what I was looking for is that the dwindled Dunedain from the north called themselves Dunedain even though Dunedain was a genreal term for men of the west. I guess though someone like Farimar had the good genes of Numenor but really was a mut. 

Also the Dunedain from the North. Who were they sleeping with to propegate the pure genes of Numenor and therefore perserving the long life spans? I never here about the hot women of the west. If the men were wondering around in hiding. Were are the women at?

I guess the other important difference is that they kept the traditions of Numenor and the relations with the elves. That just makes them more "connected" with their past.


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## aragil (Jul 22, 2002)

The Dunedain of the North were still a nation, they just had no established dwellings. It's not like there were no women left alive, or only ~20 Dunedain. I imagine there were hundreds, if not thousands of Dunedain left in Eriador at the time of the War of the Ring. I even imagine some of them were female. Aragorn's mother, Gilraen, at least is mentioned by name. Incidentally, she was probably a lot closer relation of Arathorn's then Aragorn was to Arwen. 
Hmm, Arathorn and Gilraen, that looks disturbingly similar to my name.


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## Tar-Elenion (Jul 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Legolas_lover12 _
> *well, acctually they're kinda both. that is one weird fam!!!!!    *



How is Arwen Aragorn's aunt in any manner?
Elros was Arwen's uncle, ans Aragorn is Elros' great great etc. grandson, making Arwen his (many times removed) cousin. The only way she could be his aunt is if one of her brothers was Aragorn's ancestor.


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## Tar-Elenion (Jul 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by aragil _
> The Dunedain of the North were still a nation, they just had no established dwellings. It's not like there were no women left alive, or only ~20 Dunedain.



According to an unpublished note in the Marquette Archives the Dunedain of the North had a primary settlement in the Angle (as reported by noted linguist David Salo).


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## Cian (Jul 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Tar-Elenion _
> ... a primary settlement in the Angle (as reported by noted linguist David Salo).



Indeed ~ source: microfilms at Marquette University, Series 3, Box 9, Folder 3.

Thank you DS (again)


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## indexerkevin (Jul 22, 2002)

*Marquette?*

Tar-Elenion, what is this Marquette source you mention? Are they Tolkien letters? Sounds interesting.....


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## Tar-Elenion (Jul 23, 2002)

Marquette is a University and holds many of JRRT's manuscripts.


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## aragil (Jul 23, 2002)

D'oh! The Angle, eh? (Also Elrond gives an indication that there is still some dwelling/camp at Fornost in _The Council of Elrond_- he calls it Deadman's Dike). I don't suppose the citation gives any indication of the size of the establishment? It is something I'm fairly curious about. First off, it doesn't seem that the Angmarian troops had enough time to engage in genocide after the TA 1974 campaign, and I imagine that the women, children, and elderly of the Dunedain weren't just sitting around in Fornost. Surely they had the equivalent of a Dunharrow in which to hide? Plus, at the Battle of Fornost in which Angmar was wiped out, there is mention of the remnants of the Dunedain of Arthedain joining Earnur. How many remnants- 10-20, or hundreds?
Of course, however many were still around, it wasn't enough to re-establish the kingdom. But through ~15 generations and 1044 years they were effective in guarding the Shire and Bree-land from most hostiles (they did let in the wolves after the Brandywine froze over). In order to accomplish that feat they either needed a fairly large population (hundreds), or else a major miracle (not out of the question), especially considering the inherent dangers of their chosen occupation. I can't recall the other 12 generations, but Aragorn's father and grandfather at least were both killed in the line of duty.


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## indexerkevin (Jul 23, 2002)

Some interesting and perceptive comments Aragil. I would guess there would be on the order of several hundreds to perhaps a thousand or so left at the time of the War of the Ring, including everyone.

You figure, 30 come down to Rohan to answer the summons. Assuming that many would still be left guarding the Shire (actually perhaps not; maybe that's the whole point of the Scouring of the Shire), and that great haste was needed and not everyone was in a position to just pick up and ride to Rohan, and they said this was all we could gather on short notice, would seem to imply several hundred fighting men, assuming maybe 10% can ride to Rohan; these being somewhat dispersed.

Also I would suspect the ones who became the Grey Company were probably most of the sub-Chieftains/princes if that is a correct term as opposed to just your average old random Dunedain; maybe the leaders of all the major "houses" or families remaining, going off to represent their houses in the big War, the more average Dunedain being left to continue guarding the women/children/etc and the Shire. That's maybe why they all looked very similar to Aragorn as most were of a very high caliber, not to be confused with cannon-fodder.


Admittedly highly speculative....


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## aragil (Jul 23, 2002)

Well, if it is speculative, it's speculation I whole-heartedly agree with. Also, in UT there is mention that the Nazgûl rode down the Dunedain guarding the South Road into the Shire. It doesn't say how many Dunedain there were, but if there were only a few dozen, then this would have been a pretty significant loss.

Incidentally, could anyone with books please look at _The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen_. There is an interesting bit there when Arathorn seeks Gilraen's hand in marriage. She is described as being somehow royal- perhaps the head of one of the other houses which indexerkevin is speculating about? Also, there is something written about her and Arathorn's relative ages- maybe it somehow gives an indication of how many other suitable wives there were?

I'm thinking that another interesting reference might be UT's story of Aldarion and Erendis. I think this story is the best one for getting some insight into Dunedain culture- i.e. how many male Dunedain were willing to go to war, what the acceptable lineage would be for a potential Queen, etc. Admittedly, an age and a half of the world passed between the time of Aldarion and that of Aragorn & Halbarad, but Arnor/Arthedain seemed to cling to the old ways, and perhaps the Rangers' culture was somewhat similar to that of Numenor.


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## Cian (Jul 23, 2002)

Those Dúnedain from the Angle are obviously the _Angles_ or the _Angelcynn_.

:looks for Saxons:


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## Arthur_Vandelay (Mar 6, 2004)

triple3 said:


> ok-
> 
> i need some clarifications
> 
> ...



Read Seeking the Wayward Children of Numenor by Michael Martinez. He points out that many of "the common folk of Gondor" in the Third Age are descendants of the Gwathuirim--who were in origin related to the Haladin (and thus, distantly, to the Dunedain)--and whose other descendants include the Dunlendings and the Men of Bree.


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## Halasían (May 20, 2004)

*Dúnedain - How Many?*

The number of Dúnedain Rangers at the time of the War of the Ring has to be one of the more heavily depated topics of the Lord of the Rings. Surely thirty rode south to meet Aragorn. I always assumed Halbarad was a captain, and de-facto commander in Eriador in Aragorn's absence. But it only states that thirty could be mustered in haste, so there were obviously some elsewhere.

So in the beginning you have 9 great ships of Numenor that bears away the Faithful before the downfall. Plus there were settlements of Numenoreans in Tharbad and other places, but I wont add this to the mix. Of the 9 ships, it seemed more came ashore in the south, so Arnor was always less in population. Add to this the wars, mainly the Last Alliance and the Gladden Fields shortly thereafter, and the numbers are reduced considerably. Since the Dúnedain of the north didn't intermingle with Middle Earth natives (for the most part I presume) their birth numbers were never large. But they were able to field an army through the years that held at bay the forces of Angmar, though they slowly weakened until they broke in the time of Arvedui.

With the scattering of the peoples after the downfall of Fornost, they most likely took up residence in Bree and surrounds after the Witch King was defeated. So the Rangers after this time most likely never numbered more than maybe a hundred at the most, taking in account that war in varying degrees of intensity was being fought from roughly TA 2460 on, and Chieftains Aragorn I, Arador, and Arathorn II were slain by wolf, troll, and orc, so surely some of the "common" Rangers were also lost.

Anyway, this is mostly conjecture on my part, but my mind is most infatuated with the Northern Kingdon and its people.


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