# Place confusion / First Age map of all of ME (does one exist??)



## redline2200

Is there such thing as a First Age map of ALL of Middle Earth? I have spent much time trying to piece together exactly what the world looked like during the events of The Silmarillion, and it really makes me wonder why there isn't a comprehensive map of everything.

I know there is a good map of Beleriand included in The Sil, but frankly, there is a lot missing from that map such as Eriador, Angband, Utumno, Dor Daedeloth, Ered Engrin, etc. I am currently reading the Silmarillion for the third time through and I still do not feel that I 100% understand exactly where everything is. I do not even understand where Morgoth resides. I know that Dor Daedeloth (home of the orcs; where Feanor was surrounded on his way to Morgoth) is supposedly just north of the highest part of the given map of Beleriand (Anfauglith), but when I look at the map of ME from the thrid age, I see the remnants of Ered Engrin in the Mountains of Angmar, north of the Misty Mountains. That would make Angband quite east of Beleriand and much farther than I had pictured it. 

Essentially, has there ever been a map that just includes EVERYTHING around the time of the first age? I want a map with Beleriand, Eriador, all the lands of Morgoth and any other important place named in The Silmarillion.
If such a map does not exist, can anyone do anything to help me with my doubts? 

Thank you SO much if you can help!!


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## Elthir

In the book _The War of the Jewels_ (History of Middle-Earth series), in the _Grey Annals_ section, Christopher Tolkien refers to a confusion concerning the geography of the far North, ultimately noting: 


'The geography of the far North is discussed in V. 270-2; but since it is impossible to say how my father came to conceive it I discreetly omitted all indication of the Iron Mountains and Thangorodrim from the map drawn for the published Silmarillion.'​ 
In the same book (in _The Later Quenta Silmarillion_ section), the 'second map' is reproduced, in which Thangorodrim (for example) is depicted, but for the many details within I would have to refer you to the whole section. It does not include all of Middle-earth at the time in any case. The note _'V. 270-2'_ refers to The Lost Road, volume five of _The History of Middle-Earth_ series. 

Karen Fonstad's Atlas of Middle-earth has a lot, but I would caution that this is a secondary source, though it contains generally good information all in one handy volume. For example she estimates something about the height of Thangorodrim based on a drawing from 1928.


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## redline2200

Thank you very much for your help!!!


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## The Tall Hobbit

Tolkien's own maps of the entire Earth in the first age are given in "The History of Middle Earth Vol 4: The Shaping of Middle Earth".


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## Elthir

I omitted reference to the first Silmarillion map as it was made fairly early, sometime between 1926 and 1930 it seems (and was worked on as late as 1932 according to Hammond and Scull). Tolkien had not even begun _The Lord of the Rings_ at this time, for example.

The _Ambarcanta_, also from _The History of Middle-Earth_ volume IV, is relatively early too.


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## Thorin

In the book 'The Characters of Middle Earth' by David Day(? I think that is the title and author it has been so long since I've seen it) There is a comprehensive map of Valinor and all of middle earth that includes even Cuivenen in the far east where the Elves awoke. Obviously it probably is very speculative but it does give you a decent sense of direction, placement and location.

Now if I only knew where it went! Dang that was a good book!


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## Echo

My favorite source for maps is _The Atlas of Middle-Earth _by Karen Fonstad. She interprets Tolkien's descriptions very well, and her maps are excellent (everything from Valinor, to the placement of the two lamps, to the bending of the world).

Just my two cents.


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## Master of maps

I was also a bit confused when i read the silmarillion, not only when it came to where the missing places were on the map, but how most of the LOTR locations connected to beleriand and where the islands and valimar were. But i located a map that showed me where most of the things were etc. etc. and it is fairly accurate. go to this link and you will find what you are looking for: http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/post-28453-1155766810.jpg


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## redline2200

Echo said:


> My favorite source for maps is _The Atlas of Middle-Earth _by Karen Fonstad. She interprets Tolkien's descriptions very well, and her maps are excellent (everything from Valinor, to the placement of the two lamps, to the bending of the world).
> 
> Just my two cents.



I just bought that actually and I must say I am very pleased with my purchase! To anyone reading this thread struggling with anything map-related in any of Tolkien's books, this will surely clear your doubts!!


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## Elthir

Since the geography of the North was raised in the initial post in this thread, I'm going to point out that neither Fonstad's map, nor the web map just linked to, looks like the map by Tolkien with respect to Thangorodrim and the Iron Mountains.

Fonstad's map also does not seem to incorporate a line from _The Grey Annals_ (written by JRRT) that was taken up into the published _Silmarillion_, that Angband's gate was 150 leagues (450 miles) from Menegroth. Fonstad rather depicts around 200 miles from Menegroth to the gates beneath Thangorodrim.

On Tolkien's Second Silmarillion map the distance between Menegroth and Thangorodrim was 218.75 miles (just under 73 leagues). In _The Grey Annals_ however, the distance of 150 leagues (450 miles) from Angband's gate to Menegroth: '... seems to imply a great extension of the northern plain. The geography of the far North is discussed in V. 270-2, but since it is impossible to say how my father came to conceive it I discreetly omitted all indication of the Iron Mountains and Thangorodrim from the map drawn for he published Silmarillion.'

Fonstad's map here is seemingly based on an old Ambarcanta map and a description from _The Siege Of Angband_ from _Quenta Silmarillion_ (The History of Middle-Earth volume V): 'For the Iron Mountains, from the southernmost point of whose great curving wall the towers of Thangorodrim were thrust forward, defended it upon either side, and were impassible to the Gnomes, because of their snow and ice.'

Concerning Tolkien's map however, Christopher Tolkien notes: 'the colossal triple peaks of Thangorodrim are surrounded by a closed circle of lesser heights, and there is no suggestion of the 'great curving wall' of the Iron Mountains from which 'the towers of Thangorodrim were thrust forward.' I am at a loss to explain this, but in all the years during which my father used this map he never made any mark on it suggesting that the picture should be changed.'

Fonstad also states that the Second Silmarillion Map: _'illustrates Thangorodrim almost as an 'Island' of foothills around the three tall peaks, jutting out one hundred miles from where the curve of the Iron Mountains must lie*'_ (she footnotes) _'*8 V, 409 The mountains were still not shown.' _Well, be that as it may _according to volume V_, in a later volume it can be seen that Tolkien added a small chain of mountains that connects, on the West side at least, to this 'island' in any case.

The point is not to be negative towards Fonstad (as I say above her work is generally good), but rather to press that _even Tolkien's own trusted mapmaker_, his son Christopher, did not attempt to map this area; and again I'm just cautioning regarding secondary sources.


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## redline2200

Very interesting Galin, and I have heard much of what you have said. You are very right in saying one must be cautious in using secondary sources. Fonstad's map is as good as any other secondary map out there (albeit imperfect), and it is for that reason that I use it...just to get some at least vague idea of how things were (when they can't be found in the map in the back of the Sil), all the while keeping in mind that anyone who is not Tolkien himself (but ironically, sometimes even Tolkien himself) will not be able to produce a book of maps without imperfections.


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## nodnarb

Master of maps said:


> I was also a bit confused when i read the silmarillion, not only when it came to where the missing places were on the map, but how most of the LOTR locations connected to beleriand and where the islands and valimar were. But i located a map that showed me where most of the things were etc. etc. and it is fairly accurate. go to this link and you will find what you are looking for: http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/post-28453-1155766810.jpg


that map is very wrong because the gulf of luhn was made where belegost was...or nogrod not sure...and anway its hard for me to explain it really but beleraind wasnt way up north like that it was jus west of eriador


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