# A Elbereth Gilthoniel



## Jan (Jan 30, 2004)

This is kind of a crazy question, but I am wondering if there are any Catholics here with a devotion to Mary who find themselves calling on Mary under the name of Elbereth?

On the rare evenings when the sky is clear around here, I love to go outside and look at the beauty of the stars. A Elbereth, Regina Coeli!

Not making any theological statements with this, just an emotional response to that very beautiful song of the Elves at Rivendel, and also to Sam's cry of desperation at Cirith Ungol. I found a translation to both on the web -- translated by Tolkien, and it seems to have grabbed onto my heart.... much the same as has Bilbo's Song.


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## Sarde (Jan 31, 2004)

Can you provide the link for those translations?


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## Jan (Jan 31, 2004)

*I was hoping someone would ask!*

I don't have the link, but I copied the translation into my word processor:

A Elbereth Gilthoniel, 
O Elbereth Star-kindler

silivren penna míriel
(white) glittering slants down sparkling like jewels

o menel aglar elenath!
from [the] firmament [the] glory [of] the star-host!

Na-chaered palan-díriel
To-remote distance far-having gazed 

o galadhremmin ennorath, 
from [the] tree-tangled middle-lands,

Fanuilos, le linnathon
Fanuilos, to thee I will chant

nef aear, sí nef aearon!
on this side of ocean, here on this side of the Great Ocean!



A Elbereth Gilthoniel o menel palan-diriel, le nallon
O Elbereth Starkindler from firmanent gazing afar, to thee I cry

sí di-nguruthos! A tiro nin, Fanuilos!
here beneath death-horror! O look towards me, Everwhite! 

Tolkien's own translation of these texts (rather free and florid): 
[The hymn:] "O! Elbereth who lit the stars, from glittering crystal slanting falls with light like jewels from heaven on high the glory of the starry host. To lands remote I have looked afar, and now to thee, Fanuilos, bright spirit clothed in ever-white, I here will sing beyond the Sea, beyond the wide and sundering Sea."

[Sam's invocation:] "O! Queen who kindled star on star, white-robed from heaven gazing far, here overwhelmed in dread of Death I cry: O guard me, Elbereth!" Another translation, more literal, is given in Letters:278: "O Elbereth Starkindler from heaven gazing-afar, to thee I cry now in the shadow of (the fear of) death. O look towards me, Everwhite."

(This is as lovely as a Silmaril, no?)


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## Gandalf The Grey (Jan 31, 2004)

Hail and Well Met, *Jan,* 

* bows an introductory greeting * 

Personally, Elbereth is not a name I use in prayer to Mary. However, you're not alone, as this passage from the Touchstone website shows:



> In Roman Catholic devotion and dogma, Mary, having been assumed into heaven at the end of her earthly life, has long been venerated as Queen of Heaven and "Star of the Sea." We find this cosmic aspect of the Marian archetype expressed in the person of Galadriel’s own heavenly patroness, Elbereth, Queen of the Stars, who plays the role in Tolkien’s legendarium of transmitting light from the heavenly places. It is to Elbereth that the Elves sing the following invocation:
> 
> Snow-white! Snow-white! O Lady clear!
> O Queen beyond the Western seas!
> ...


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## Jan (Jan 31, 2004)

*Oh! That's Why the Connection!*

I grew up before Vatican II, and this was one of my favorite songs. No wonder I am thinking of Mary and Elbereth together. As I said, no theological connection, but there was something in my head that has been putting the two together.

It is interesting to go back and forth, reading The Silmarillion and the Douay-Rheims Bible. Very similar language structure; they both sound like each other. I suppose this was the version of scripture most familiar to Tolkien.

Thanks for reminding me of that song. I have it on a tape somewhere around here; think I will go listen to it!


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## Sarde (Jan 31, 2004)

Thanx for the translation, Jan!


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## Witch-King (Feb 1, 2004)

Iam a Catholic, and we had a conversation in ccd (which is sunday classes) and The Lord of the Rings is very like catholicism, we talked about how men are so easily corrupted by power, example politics, and like you said about mary we do worship her, like in tolkien they worship Elbereth Gilthoniel which got me into Lord of the Rings.


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## Jan (Feb 1, 2004)

*Clarification*

We Catholics do not worship Mary; worship belongs to God alone. However, we honor Mary above all saints, because she is the Mother of Jesus.

I haven't seen in any of Tolkien's works where anyone worships Elbereth, but, like Mary, she seems to be honored by the Elves above all the Valar. The tone that Tolkien sets re: Elbereth is very like Catholic hymns and prayers to Mary.

Glad to hear you're going to CCD! Keep it up!


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 2, 2004)

The following quotes from _The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien_ may provide some insight into the matter:



> Father Roben Murray, grandson of Sir James Murray (the founder of the Oxford English Dictionary) and a close friend of the Tolkien family, had read pan of The Lord of the Rings in galley-proofs and typescript, and had, at Tolkien's instigation, sent comments and criticism. He wrote that the book left him with a strong sense of 'a positive compatibility with the order of Grace', and compared the image of Galadriel to that of the Virgin Mary. He doubted whether many critics would be able to make much of the book – 'they will not have a pigeon-hole neatly labelled for it'





> For instance I was born in 1892 and lived for my early years in 'the Shire' in a pre-mechanical age. Or more important, I am a Christian (which can be deduced from my stories), and in fact a Roman Catholic. The latter 'fact' perhaps cannot be deduced; though one critic (by letter) asserted that the invocations of Elbereth, and the character of Galadriel as directly described (or through the words of Gimli and Sam) were clearly related to Catholic devotion to Mary. Another saw in waybread (lembas)= viaticum and the reference to its feeding the will (vol. III, p. 213) and being more potent when fasting, a derivation from the Eucharist. (That is: far greater things may colour the mind in dealing with the lesser things of a fairy-story.)





> I was particularly interested in your remarks about Galadriel. .... I think it is true that I owe much of this character to Christian and Catholic teaching and imagination about Mary, but actually Galadriel was a penitent: in her youth a leader in the rebellion against the Valar (the angelic guardians). At the end of the First Age she proudly refused forgiveness or permission to return. She was pardoned because of her resistance to the final and overwhelming temptation to take the Ring for herself.


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## Jan (Feb 2, 2004)

Wow! Interesting comments! I would never have thought of Galadriel in LOTR as a Marian image, simply because of her history in the Silmarillion. The penitent image fits her well. 

The idea of lembas as viaticum is obvious. Too obvious, for someone who hated allegory as much as Tolkien claimed he did. 

I suppose that, as I progress in Tolkienology, I will have a chance to read all of these really interesting letters. Thanks for posting that information!


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