# JRR Tolkien: True Blue Roman Catholic — or Closet Freemason?



## Barliman Butterbur (Sep 30, 2005)

Have you ever stopped to think about the original basis of Tolkien's drawings of heraldry, symbols, logos? Have you, like me, simply accepted them as coming straight out of his imagination, having their basis in a private symbolism of his own?

While researching the symbolism of rings for quite another purpose, I quite by chance (or serendipity) came across a website with a very _startling_ assertion: That a great many of Tolkien's designs — such as the design of Moria's Gate, for instance — are based on ancient Freemason symbolism! Since the discussion depends almost entirely upon the examination and comparison of graphics, instead of talking about it I refer you to http://www.darkstar1.co.uk/ring.html , and let you see and contemplate for yourself. You just might be as startled as I was. At the least, it's food for thought!

Barley

PS: For those who wish to delve further into this: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=tolkien+freemason


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## Arvedui (Sep 30, 2005)

There was a time when I was thinking that Tolkien may very well have had some connections with Free Masonry, so that you have found a lot of similarities only serves as more 'evidence' to me.

But I still haven't found any source that can tell if he really was, though...


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## Thorondor_ (Sep 30, 2005)

My first impression was similar to one idea mentioned in your first link:
_His sources are pagan (The Kalevala, the Ring Cycle of the Niebulung, ancient Celtic and Germanic myth, etc.
_So I don't buy the mason theory... yet


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## SpankusAurilius (Sep 30, 2005)

Once again Barley, you have sparked my interest in things which i cannot begin to comprehend. But lack of understanding does not deter my fascination. I'm at the point where I'm looking for my own conclusions on a lot of life's most puzzling questions. I am currently delving into texts of the Sumerians.... if anyone has any input or interesting theories, please....... let me in.
Thanks,
Spank


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## Hammersmith (Sep 30, 2005)

Tolkien also borrowed from Greek Mythology. Are you suggesting he embraced polytheism too? Besides, the only similarity I can make out is that both are arches. As far as arches go, they seem quite unique.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Sep 30, 2005)

Hammersmith said:


> Are you suggesting he embraced polytheism too?



I'm suggesting nothing. I simply offer what I found.



SpankusArililius said:


> Once again Barley, you have sparked my interest in things which I cannot begin to comprehend. But lack of understanding does not deter my fascination.



_That's_ the kind of attitude I love!!! (Don't forget: what we don't comprehend outnumbers what we do, as the aggregate particles of the Gobi desert outnumber a grain of sand...so you're in good company!)



> I'm at the point where I'm looking for my own conclusions on a lot of life's most puzzling questions. I am currently delving into texts of the Sumerians.... if anyone has any input or interesting theories, please....... let me in.
> Thanks,
> Spank



I would _love_ to get into that with you, _aber es ist verboten bei unser Füherer!_ 

Once upon a time early in my checkered career of spiritual wanderlust, I investigated Theosophy — now _there's_ something as exotic and juicy as a ripe plum! When you're done with the Sumerians, you might look into that too. 

Barley


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## octoburn (Oct 20, 2005)

I believe Tolkien's intentions (with all of middle-earth) were to create an extremely large myth that created a "reality" behind (and encompassed almost all of) the mythologies of Europe at the time. this is evident in almost every story within the realms of Middle Earth. every one could be twisted or "perverted" into a modern myth. I think the similarities are merely evidence that he knew of Freemasonry, and it influenced his writings and fictitious world, just like every other story he'd read as a child.


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## Lady_of_Gondor (Dec 12, 2005)

Well, I don't think it is necessarily his belief system. He stated his devotion to Catholicism on more than one occasion. Here's my take: Many writers during the English Renaissance heavily employed Classical myth (Greek and Roman Gods and Goddess) into Christian Literature. Take, for example, John Milton's _Paradise Lost_, and also much of Shakespeare's work, and many others. John Milton is an example of a fervant Christian (Anglican - hated Catholics, but still). Yet, he used classical allusions to false Gods without feeling as though he was abandoning his faith. Why couldn't Tolkien have done the same thing with the Free Masonry symbols. Every author and artist is influenced in some way or another. That doesn't mean that they necessarily believe ver batum everything they are influenced by.


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## Haldatyaro (Dec 13, 2005)

It's doubtful that Tolkien was a Freemason. Don't forget that in England during his time, Catholics weren't exactly welcome in the Lodges, nor did they seek membership. It may still be the case, I don't know. I'm an American Freemason and know Brethren from many different religious traditions.

I think the key is in Tolkien's intentions to create a believable Middle-earth that existed many thousands of years ago. Naturally, he would draw upon (consciously or no) symbolism that can be found in Europe -- the same symbolism that Freemasonry borrows.

The meaning behind Royal Arch symbolism are intrinsic to Masonic belief, but they aren't necessarily Masonic in origin. Freemasonry draws upon a lot of heterogeneous Western (ie European) traditions, Biblical referents, Renaissance-era metaphysics, and so on and employs them in what could be viewed allegorically. In Masonic ritual, symbols acts as instruments of instruction and knowledge, often presented in parable form.

However, in Tolkien's conception, the symbolism is contained within his construct, mythology and universe. The two pillars clearly represent the Two Trees, for instance, (or perhaps the Sun and Moon, or even the Lamps of the Valar) and in no way intellectually function like the Masonic pillars. There's no lesson to be learned from the Moria Gate.

To me, it's like comparing Der Ring of the Niebelungenlied and The One Ring of LoTR. Yes, there are similarities, and rings of magic are part of many old legends, but each is a sui generis object within the context of their respective tales.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Dec 13, 2005)

I'm mildly surprised (though gratified) that someone has taken up this thread again (I thought it died long ago), but more to the point has added things of interest! 

My paternal grandfather was a Freemason in his early life. He lost everything in the Crash, and never again had the time nor money (nor, I suppose, the enthusiasm) to indulge it. 

Great and permanent poverty coming hard on the heels of fairly significant wealth can certainly put a kink in one's mystico/spiritual proclivities...

Barley


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## Eledhwen (Feb 10, 2008)

Presumably you mean This sort of thing. There are also examples chiselled into tombstones of Tolkien-like symbols.

I think it's far more likely that both Tolkien and the Freemasons drew on older symbolism. I have long been fascinated by pilgrim badges, which I believe have pre-Christian origins and were either re-assigned as was, or adapted from their original meanings, to sell to an eager Christianised populace. The one called the Yorkist Sun looks very much like a the symbol for a Silmaril, to me.

Haldatyaro speculates about the two trees matching masonic pillars. If they compare to any pillars at all, I would say it was the pillars of fire and cloud that guided the Exodus from Egypt. (fire by night, cloud by day). However, I prefer the more obvious sun and moon representations. Do trees (or a tree) provide the origins of the sun and moon in any other mythologies, I wonder? I'd be interested to know.


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## Mike (Feb 12, 2008)

I've found that Freemasonic imagery has generally been "found" in some of the most unlikely places, as if Freemasonry somehow influences and permeates everything. The problem is, of course, that it doesn't, and a lot of information on Freemasonry is simply, well, wrong.

A good example is the ascription of Freemasonic imagery to the Whitechapel Murders of 1888, most famously considered in the comic book "From Hell", which drew on other sources. Somehow, the ways the murders were commited prove that Jack the Ripper was a Freemason.

Except, of course, there is no such evidence. Stephen Knight's books on Jack the Ripper (claiming he was the Freemason William Gull) and on Freemason are both based on the shakiest of foundations.

That brings me to Tolkien. I would agree that they might have used imagery, but the site you (Barley) posted oh-so-long ago seems to be going into Tolkien's works with the a priori assumption that he was using specific Freemason images. As we might all guess...if you think something is there in the first place, you're bound to find it's true no matter how false your initial assertion may be.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Feb 18, 2008)

Nice to see this thread activated again after three years! I thought it pretty much had seen its day.

(And lo and behold — this, on 2/18/08 — turns out to be my 2600th post, long in the coming! I would have been up to 3400, but they subtracted 800 in the "Great Purge" a few years back, a silly attempt to try to weed out posts that deserved to be "not counted" from those that did... )

To Mike: Yes, it certainly was a long time ago! Looking at the link I included in the original post, there still seems to me to be startling similarities between those _particular/specific_ drawings and some of those done by Tolkien.

Barley


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## macgyver (Dec 13, 2009)

I am a Freemason and lifetime Tolkien fan. periodically I read the series through again. [as im sure most of you do]

I would like to point out, that in the early pages of The Hobbit, there is a masonic reference that is unmistakable.

because of my oath to the masons I can't reveal on this forum the exact phrase. and in fact Tolkien does not use the precise masonic phrasing.

an argument could be made that the phrase is merely a coincidence or accident, and that no true masonic link exists.

since the phrase regards Bilbo who is a favorable character. it seems to imply a pro masonic view and not an anti masonic view of the author our beloved Tolkien.

Given Tolkien's considerable intellect, and knowing what his passions were [launguages, codes, maps, secrets] and the fact the masons are an ancient organization . . . it is fair to say at a minimum: 1) he knew about the organization 2) he took an interest at some point. [wether he joined or not]

here are some posibilities:

1) Because of his oath, he deliberatly did not use the precise masonic phrase, but left it as a clue to wary readers.

2) Maybe he joined and then later renounced his membership, and kept that fact a secret.

3) Maybe he was a full member, and kept that fact secret.

4) maybe he was highly knowledgable about the masons, and their symbols, but simply had no desire to join, and left the phrase to play with those of us, knowing we would enjoy the mystery and intrigue.

somthing else to consider.

a number of famous authors who are known to be masons, and make subtle and not so subtle references to masonry in their respective writings

Mark Twain
Edgar Allen Poe
Sir Arthuer Conon Doyle
Victor Hugo
Alexander Dumas
Edgar Rice Burroughs

Poe and Doyle were fond of cyphers.

Hugo's the Hunch back of Notre Dame. the first 1/3 of that classic book is a mysterious treaties on the subject of architecture

Dumas: one of the muskiteers, Arimis is also a Jesuit priest, who must keep it secret because the history of the time the Jesuits, are estranged from the larger body of the Catholic church. [the jesuits persue an interest in science considerd heiretical] 

So, anyone want to rethink Tolkien's affiliation?

-Mack


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## Alcuin (Dec 13, 2009)

Freemasonry has been condemned by the Roman Catholic Church since 28 April, 1738; when Pope Clement XII published Constitution “In Eminenti”. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, the condemnation was for:


> The peculiar, “unsectarian” … character of Freemasonry, by which theoretically and practically it undermines the Catholic and Christian faith…
> The inscrutable secrecy…, “perverting the hearts of the simple”, ruining their spiritual and temporal welfare.
> The oaths of secrecy and of fidelity to Masonry and Masonic work, which cannot be justified in their scope, their object, or their form, and cannot, therefore, induce any obligation. The oaths are condemnable, because the scope and object of Masonry are “wicked” and condemnable…
> The danger which such societies involve for the security and “tranquility of the State” and for “the spiritual health of souls”…


In his encyclical _Humanum Genus_, “On Freemasonry”, April 20, 1884, Pope Leo XIII wrote (¶ 2), 


> …At this period, however, the partisans of evil seems to be combining together, and to be struggling with united vehemence, led on or assisted by that strongly organized and widespread association called the Freemasons. No longer making any secret of their purposes, they are now boldly rising up against God Himself. They are planning the destruction of holy Church publicly and openly, and this with the set purpose of utterly despoiling the nations of Christendom, if it were possible, of the blessings obtained for us through Jesus Christ our Savior. …


The Office of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith issued a “Declaration On Masonic Associations” on 26 November 1983. The document was signed by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Prefect – the man who is now Pope Benedict XVI. 


> …
> Since the Church began to declare her mind concerning Freemasonry, her negative judgment has been inspired by many reasons, both practical and doctrinal. She judged Freemasonry not merely responsible for subversive activity in her regard, but from the earliest pontifical documents on the subject and in particular in the Encyclical Humanum Genus by Leo XIII (20 April 1884), the Magisterium of the Church has denounced in Freemasonry philosophical ideas and moral conceptions opposed to Catholic doctrine. For Leo XIII, they essentially led back to a rationalistic naturalism, the inspiration of its plans and activities against the Church. In his Letter to the Italian people Custodi (8 December 1892), he wrote: «Let us remember that Christianity and Freemasonry are essentially irreconcilable, so that enrolment in one means separation from the other».…
> 
> …the Sacred Congregation points out to the faithful that this membership objectively constitutes a grave sin and by specifying that the members of a Masonic association may not receive Holy Communion, it intends to enlighten the conscience of the faithful about a grave consequence which must derive from their belonging to a Masonic lodge.
> ...


An article entitled “Irreconcilability between Christian faith and Freemasonry” appeared on March 11, 1985, in _L'Osservatore Romano_, the official Vatican organ. It incidentally clarifies the situation at the time Tolkien died:


> In this regard, the text also refers to the Declaration of 17 February 1981, which already reserved to the Apostolic See all pronouncements on the nature of these associations which may have implied derogations from the Canon Law then in force (Can. 2335). In the same way, the new document issued by the S.C.D.F. in November 1983 expresses identical intentions of reserve concerning pronouncements which would differ from the judgment expressed here on the irreconcilability of Masonic principles with the Catholic faith, on the gravity of the act of joining a lodge and on the consequences which arise from it for receiving Holy Communion.


John Ronald Reuel Tolkien was a devout Roman Catholic. His mother, he, and his brother Arthur were disowned by the Tolkien family when his mother converted to Roman Catholicism after his father’s early and unexpected death; he blamed her subsequent early death in part on the hardship she suffered on behalf of her Faith. Tolkien and Arthur grew up in a Catholic orphanage. The greatest influence on his young life after the demise of his mother was a Catholic priest. Tolkien was intensely devoted to the Catholic Church and participated in its liturgy and services. 

While I am not privy to JRR Tolkien’s interior thoughts, any secret associations he may have maintained, or any unpublished writings he may have left – particularly had he sought to keep them secret or hidden – given the uncompromising position of the Catholic Church against Freemasonry during his lifetime, a position which has been maintained and clarified since his death in 1973, in my opinion, it is not credible to assert to that JRR Tolkien was a Freemason.


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## Ithrynluin (Dec 13, 2009)

Uh oh, I feel a Dan Brown novel coming on. 

But seriously, macgyver, that was a very interesting post and I thank you for it. Tolkien's connection to Freemasonry is likely unlikely , but it is the lack of complete evidence, that allows the little leeway we need for that "mystery and intrigue" many of us enjoy so much.


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## macgyver (Dec 14, 2009)

While I am not privy to JRR Tolkien’s interior thoughts, any secret associations he may have maintained, or any unpublished writings he may have left – particularly had he sought to keep them secret or hidden – given the uncompromising position of the Catholic Church against Freemasonry during his lifetime, a position which has been maintained and clarified since his death in 1973, in my opinion, it is not credible to assert to that JRR Tolkien was a Freemason.[/QUOTE]

I would say those are all excellent points.

Its also true that from the point of view of the Catholic church. "they" are the one true religion. and all faiths *other* than Catholic, are heretics. [devil worshipers in effect]

I was not contesting the Catholic churches view on freemasonry. I was contesting Tolkien s view on freemasonry.

freemasonry has three plank values. 1) No atheist can be a Freemason. 2) freedom of religion 3) education in the liberal arts.

#2 is a REAL big problems for [some] Catholics. they don't go along with the whole freedom of religion ideal. your either catholic or a devil worshiper [respectively.]

many Catholics do not go along with this or many other church issues. there are in fact a huge number of Catholic Freemasons, including members of the clergy.

you see the problem is that Freemasons accept members of ANY faith. Christians of all types, and Jews, and Hindu's and buddists, and muslims. 

Im in no way contesting Tolkiens catholic faith.

what I am saying is this: in the early pages of The Hobbit Tolkien has placed a Freemasonic phrase. and that phrase is _*Unmistakable*_ 

So the question is . . . whats it doing there? If Tolkien is pro Catholic AND anti mason. why is the phrase there? why?

the weakest possible suggestion is that [maybe] Tolkien was sympathetic to the masons. if not freedom of religion, at least freedom from catholic persecution. In other words maybe he saw some church positions as wrong or at least un-cristian. Maybe Tolkien did not like the chuches anti semitic view, or its sympathy tward Natzi germany in WWII. Thats alot of maybe's

the strongest possible suggestion is that. He was a full mason, kept it a secret, and left a clue in his writing for the initiated to puzzel over.

-mack


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## Alcuin (Dec 14, 2009)

macgyver said:


> #2 is a REAL big problems for ... Catholics. they don't go along with the whole freedom of religion ideal. your either catholic or a devil worshiper...


This thread might not be the best place to discuss the merits or demerits of Roman Catholicism. My purpose in quoting Catholic dogma is to put it into perspective with Tolkien's well-known and well-documented Catholic faith, with which Masonic membership is incompatible. 



macgyver said:


> Im in no way contesting Tolkiens catholic faith.


I disagree. Tolkien was nearly ecstatic in his descriptions of his faith in his published _Letters_. A man subject to prejudice as a Catholic, who believes his family suffered because of their faith, is less likely to deviate from dogma. I do not believe you can make the assertion that Tolkien was a Freemason without also derogating his Catholicism.



macgyver said:


> what I am saying is this: in the early pages of The Hobbit Tolkien has placed a Freemasonic phrase. and that phrase is _*Unmistakable*_


I seem to have missed it. Would you please be explicit? What exactly is the phrase that has so excited you?


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## macgyver (Dec 17, 2009)

Alcuin said:


> This thread might not be the best place to discuss the merits or demerits of Roman Catholicism. My purpose in quoting Catholic dogma is to put it into perspective with Tolkien's well-known and well-documented Catholic faith, with which Masonic membership is incompatible.
> 
> I disagree. Tolkien was nearly ecstatic in his descriptions of his faith in his published _Letters_. A man subject to prejudice as a Catholic, who believes his family suffered because of their faith, is less likely to deviate from dogma. I do not believe you can make the assertion that Tolkien was a Freemason without also derogating his Catholicism.
> 
> I seem to have missed it. Would you please be explicit? What exactly is the phrase that has so excited you?



Freeemasonry is not incompatable with ANY faith. Not surprising. Many Catholics are members.

the phrase is "Not the fellow who 
used to tell such wonderful tales at parties, about dragons and 
goblins and giants and the rescue of princesses and the unexpected 
luck of widows' sons?"

so Google "widows son" or "luck of widows sons". see what you get?


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## macgyver (Dec 17, 2009)

Originally Posted by *macgyver* 

 
_#2 is a REAL big problems for ... Catholics. they don't go along with the whole freedom of religion ideal. your either catholic or a devil worshiper..._
This thread might not be the best place to discuss the merits or demerits of Roman Catholicism. My purpose in quoting Catholic dogma is to put it into perspective with Tolkien's well-known and well-documented Catholic faith, with which Masonic membership is incompatible. 

all im saying is that Tolkien's faith is not a valid reason for claiming that he was not a Freemason.

http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/roman_catholic_freemason.htm

http://www.lily.org/blog/2005/10/freemasonry-and-catholic-church.html


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## Alcuin (Dec 17, 2009)

macgyver said:


> ...
> all im saying is that Tolkien's faith is not a valid reason for claiming that he was not a Freemason.
> ...


I strenuously disagree. 

You are making a claim that about JRR Tolkien and his writings that I do not believe you can support. 

Arguing that other Roman Catholics violated the teachings of their Church is not evidence that Tolkien did; much less that this presumed deception is revealed in his legendarium. 

You are making what I consider an extraordinary claim. As far as I am concerned in this thread, the burden is on you to provide extraordinary evidence _from Tolkien’s own writings_ to prove it.


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## Astrance (Dec 17, 2009)

macgyver said:


> Freeemasonry is not incompatable with ANY faith. Not surprising. Many Catholics are members.
> 
> the phrase is "Not the fellow who
> used to tell such wonderful tales at parties, about dragons and
> ...



I googled it. And it looks like there's more Tolkienery with these key words than Freemansonry... So please provide us a direct link or reference proving what you postulate, because I'm afraid I can't believe any word of it without strong proofs, even if I were to use more imagination than it took Tolkien to create Middle Earth


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## Turgon (Dec 17, 2009)

'The unexpected luck of widows' sons' is quite a common trope in fairy tales, as are 'dragons and goblins and giants' and of course the lost art of 'rescuing princesses'. So I'm not really sure there is too much of a connection there. One phrase doesn't make a Freemason. I dunno, you can read anything into anything if you are of a mind to do so. Was Gandalf's Mark a masons mark? Doubtful - but it is one interpretation. Is _Jack and the Beanstalk_ a masonic allegory? I could read it that way if I wanted to. Probably not though. As much as conspiracy theorists would like us to believe - the world doesn't revolve around Masonry.


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## Prince of Cats (Dec 17, 2009)

Would turin be the widow's son? I mean, at least as far as he's concerned? Just wondering to what in his own legend Tolkien was referring to


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## Alcuin (Dec 17, 2009)

Turgon said:


> Was Gandalf's Mark a masons mark? Doubtful - but it is one interpretation.


We know how the mark that Gandalf made on Bilbo’s door looked because Tolkien drew it. The picture is published in _Tolkien Artist & Illustrator_ as illustration 91 on page 99. This is the mark. The first run is a “B”, the second a “D”, but the third, as far as I know, does not appear in the Anglo-Saxon futhark. Glóin interpreted the marks as _Burglar wants a good job, plenty of Excitement and reasonable Reward_. (_The Hobbit_, “An Unexpected Party”) 









Turgon said:


> 'The unexpected luck of widows' sons' is quite a common trope in fairy tales, as are 'dragons and goblins and giants' and of course the lost art of 'rescuing princesses'.


It’s a common theme in the Bible, from which Freemasons draw their reference to “a widow’s son” in I Kings 7:13-14:


> And king Solomon sent and fetched Hiram out of Tyre. He was a widow's son of the tribe of Naphtali, and his father was a man of Tyre, a worker in brass: and he was filled with wisdom, and understanding, and cunning to work all works in brass. And he came to king Solomon, and wrought all his work.


It is not the only reference to a widow’s son, either in I Kings or in the Bible. I Kings 11:27 (Jeroboam eventually rebelled against Solomon’s son Rehoboam and founded the northern kingdom of Israel, while Rehoboam ruled over the southern kingdom of Judah):


> And Jeroboam the son of Nebat, an Ephrathite of Zereda, Solomon's servant, whose mother's name was Zeruah, a widow woman, even he lifted up his hand against the king.


In I Kings 17, Elijah the prophet fled from King Ahab and Queen Jezebel during the drought, hiding with a Phoenician widow and her son, who died while he was there and was resurrected. I Kings 17:20,


> And he cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son?


Finally, Jesus raised a widow’s son in Luke 7:11-15,


> And it came to pass the day after, that he went into a city called Nain; and many of his disciples went with him, and much people. Now when he came nigh to the gate of the city, behold, there was a dead man carried out, the only son of his mother, and she was a widow: and much people of the city was with her. And when the Lord saw her, he had compassion on her, and said unto her, Weep not. And he came and touched the bier: and they that bare him stood still. And he said, Young man, I say unto thee, Arise. And he that was dead sat up, and began to speak. And he delivered him to his mother.


Besides the literary trope of widows’ sons who did well, or found unexpected good fortune, Tolkien would have been thoroughly familiar with all of these Biblical references, particularly the resurrections of widow’s sons by Elijah and Jesus, which are recalled in homilies in the liturgical cycle. In addition, there are scores of other references to widows and orphans in the Bible, the majority of them enjoining people to treat them honestly, mercifully, and equitably. (I counted 85 references to widows alone, including these.)



Prince of Cats said:


> Would turin be the widow's son? I mean, at least as far as he's concerned? Just wondering to what in his own legend Tolkien was referring to


The “unexpected luck of widows’ sons” in the case of Turin would be bad luck! (Technically, Morwen Eledhwen was not a widow: Húrin Thalion outlived her and all their children; but no one knew it before Turin and Nienor died.) 

Aragorn would be a widow’s son. His luck was quite different from Turin’s, his ancestral uncle; but surely Gandalf would do everything he could to conceal the existence of Aragorn at the time, who was only 10 years old and living incognito in Rivendell when Bilbo passed through with Thorin & Co. 
​


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## macgyver (Dec 18, 2009)

excellent replies all around.

first let me say, I don't believe that Tolkien is involved in any conspiracy of any type in any way.

second let me say. Neither are the Freemasons. most of the people who claim so are anti masons of some type or another.

Third. It is very possible that Tolkien is *NOT* a Freemason.

One of the points I challenge is this. Catholic = Not Freemason. I think I've shown that argument to be total bunk. I know that upsets some points of view, but there it is.

that does NOT prove Tolkien was a Freemason. It does prove that 
Tolkien + Catholic = Not a Freemason. is false logic. 

personally its not important to me that he was a Freemason, a Catholic or anything else. My love, respect and admiration of the man, and what he created cannot be lessened. For example. the guy was a heavy smoker. There are way more references in his writings to that than to being anything else.

does anyone want to suggest that Tolkien conspired with the tobacco industry to make smoking more appealing to children?

here is an interesting factoid. Belladona is an herb that makes smoking pipe tobacco taste horrible. [somtimes use by people trying to quit smoking]

knowing what we know about Tolkien . . . is it possible Tolkien was FULLY aware of that, when he gave Belladona Took her name???

anyone who takes the time to post to this site, I would except without proof as a person that loves and admires Tolkien. While it is safe to say that most of us are fascinated by the biographical details that composed him into the great man we all admire.

for example Tolkien played rugby and even broke his nose playing the sport. But what if I then claimed that all of his writing was just an allegory for playing rugby? 

what if you hated rugby? how would you feel about Tolkien's works then? would you take off your pair of Billbo Baggins boxer shorts and throw them against the wall? 

there has to be a twelve step program out their for Tolkien addicts, but admitting that YOU have a problem is still the first step.

Now back to the subject of whether Tolkien is a Freemason or Not.

in the previous postings some one suggested that the gates to the mines of Moria are a masonic symbol. for that to be correct the pillars on both sides of the archway would have to be different types, and the archway would have to have a key stone. without those details it can't be a masonic symbol or even an allusion to one.

interesting to note is that Mount Moriah, does figure into masonic legend, as the site of the building of king Solomon's temple.

while Moriah is different than Moria, it is kind of suggestive. . .

also the legend of king Solomon lost mines . . . and the lost mines of Moria.

it is possible that these are biblical references for Tolkien, and NOT Masonic ones.

the question is, if these are bible references, was Tolkien aware that this bible reference also had a strong connection to Masonic symbolism?

I find its a bad betting strategy to second guess Tolkien's awareness of things. when it comes to the deeper meaning of language . . . his awareness runs much deeper than the Bible, or Masonic references to the bible.

If you took a hundred opportunities in Tolkien's work to ask the question: Is Tolkien aware of the connection/deeper meaning? and said YES to all 100 of those opportunities, you would probably be right more often than wrong.

a whole other questions is: do we as readers of Tolkien, imagine a connection / deeper meaning [other] than Tolkien intended? like a connection to Freemasonry, for example? If you said YES every time, again you would likely be right more often than wrong.

If you then apply both of those YES answers to Tolkien. and then ask questions like this:

Is Tolkien aware of Masonic symbolism? YES

Is Tolkien aware of the deeper meaning of Masonic symbolism? YES [probably more than the masons themselves]

now both of those YES answers are just a guess. NOT PROOF. just a guess.

assuming you get that coin toss right. Does that prove that Tolkien was a Freemason? Nope, no way. why should it? all that means is he was aware of the deeper meaning and symbolism of those things.

If you take the issue of whether or not Tolkien was a Freemason, off the table and just ask if he was aware of the deeper meaning and symbolism, is that really such a radical thing to propose? but it then is a natural question, of whether or not Tolkien [might] very well have been a Freemason. A perfectly reasonable thing to question.


----------



## Alcuin (Dec 19, 2009)

macgyver said:


> One of the points I challenge is this. Catholic = Not Freemason. I think I've shown that argument to be total bunk. I know that upsets some points of view, but there it is.


That’s simply false. The Roman Catholic Church has told its members for almost 300 years that if they are Freemasons, they are in impaired communion with the Roman Catholic Church, they are in grievous sin, and they may not participate in the Eucharist. It isn’t bunk: it’s the decision of a succession of Catholic synods and proclaimed by numerous popes. You can’t change that, however much you might like. I am quite certain that there are men who declare that they are practicing Roman Catholics who are also practicing Freemasons, because from time to time, the Roman Catholic Church discusses it. The upshot of those discussions and declarations is that these people are in impaired communion and may not take Eucharist until they take whatever remedial action the Church demands. Do these folks break the rules? I’m quite sure they do. Are they supposed to? No. 

JRR Tolkien’s oldest son became a Roman Catholic priest. Tolkien himself participated in the liturgy and services, and he apparently attended mass daily for quite some time. He wrote to his children about his faith and his belief: it was profound, and that Catholic faith and belief _is _reflected in Tolkien’s writings. 



macgyver said:


> here is an interesting factoid. Belladona is an herb that makes smoking pipe tobacco taste horrible.


That sounds link an interesting practice. Wikipedia calls belladona “one of the most toxic plants found in the Western hemisphere.” It also has hallucinogenic properties. Atropine from belladonna, combined with nicotine from tobacco, should produce some fascinating hallucinations while the smoker keels over from myocardial infarction. Is there a doctor in the thread who can shine some light here?



macgyver said:


> for example Tolkien played rugby and even broke his nose playing the sport. But what if I then claimed that all of his writing was just an allegory for playing rugby?
> 
> what if you hated rugby? how would you feel about Tolkien's works then? would you take off your pair of Billbo Baggins boxer shorts and throw them against the wall?


I guess I’d fall back on Tolkien’s own words,


> I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence.





macgyver said:


> there has to be a twelve step program out their for Tolkien addicts, but admitting that YOU have a problem is still the first step.


HA! I think I’ll keep my Tolkien addiction, thank you very much! 



macgyver said:


> in the previous postings some one suggested that the gates to the mines of Moria are a masonic symbol. for that to be correct the pillars on both sides of the archway would have to be different types, and the archway would have to have a key stone. without those details it can't be a masonic symbol or even an allusion to one.


Well, that would make all the ancient Romans Masons: you can’t build an arch without a keystone. So I guess anyone who builds an arch is a Mason, huh? I’ve known several stonecutters and bricklayers – I know they were masons, because I worked with them. They threw brickbat.



macgyver said:


> Is Tolkien aware of Masonic symbolism? YES
> 
> Is Tolkien aware of the deeper meaning of Masonic symbolism? YES [probably more than the masons themselves]
> 
> now both of those YES answers are just a guess. NOT PROOF. just a guess.


There are a lot of old texts from the Middle Ages, the Renaissance, and the first few centuries of the modern era that are just books of symbols. Not all those books or all those symbols are Masonic in origin: some of them are occult, but most of them are just traditional symbols from ages past. In Europe after the fall of Rome, most people could not read: these symbols were an important means of communicating to a mostly illiterate population. Are you claiming that all these symbols are Masonic, and that all the people who used them or understood them were Masons? That’s a pretty radical claim.

Tolkien was a philologist. He studied languages, literature, culture, and symbols. That was his job, his profession – he was _the_ Oxford don for Anglo-Saxon, presumably making him the world’s leading authority in that subject in his lifetime. You’d think he’d know a little about this stuff; but maybe not.

I don’t personally know whether Carl Jung was a Mason or not, but are you arguing that Jungian symbology – the Archetype and the Collective Unconscious – are Masonic because Jung uses and studies a lot of the same symbols Masons use?

Do you have any evidence for this other than opinion? (Or wishful thinking?) Is there biographical evidence? Certainly there were Masonic lodges in Oxford: do any of them claim Tolkien as a member? What does his family say? Some of his closest personal and professional friends were CS Lewis, EV Gordon, Hugo Dyson, and Charles Williams. Were any of these men Masons? Were any of his children Masons? 

There is a tremendous amount of Medieval symbolism in _The Chronicles of Narnia_. I am personally not a Narnia fan, but I have read several articles in recent years by scholars researching the depth and intricacy of Medieval symbolism in Narnia, and Lewis was first and foremost a Medievalist _par excellence_. Does that make CS Lewis an occultist because he used Medieval symbolism? If so, I suppose that means that all the Medieval passion plays and players were, too. 



macgyver said:


> If you take the issue of whether or not Tolkien was a Freemason, off the table and just ask if he was aware of the deeper meaning and symbolism, is that really such a radical thing to propose? but it then is a natural question, of whether or not Tolkien [might] very well have been a Freemason. A perfectly reasonable thing to question.


Maybe you’re asking the wrong question. Are the symbols exclusive to Freemasonry? I don’t they are. 


Turgon said:


> 'The unexpected luck of widows' sons' is quite a common trope in fairy tales, as are 'dragons and goblins and giants' and of course the lost art of 'rescuing princesses'. … you can read anything into anything if you are of a mind to do so. … As much as conspiracy theorists would like us to believe - the world doesn't revolve around Masonry.



-|-

_[noparse][[/noparse]added much later...[noparse]][/noparse]_

Just a little more… Douglas Anderson, in _Annotated Hobbit_, “An Unexpected Party”, footnote 8 (actually printed along the margins, not the footers), writes,


> Tolkien probably chose the name _Belladonna_ for its Italian meaning, “beautiful lady” (from Latin _bella_, the feminine of _bellus_, beauty, and _domina_, lady). The plant name _belladonna_ (a variety of nightshade) is the same word, for Italian ladies formerly used a cosmetic made from the juice of the poisonous plant. In _The Lord of the Rings_, Tolkien continued using plant and flower names for female hobbits. Belladonna Took is the only female character named in _The Hobbit_. …


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## Alcuin (Dec 19, 2009)

This deserves its own post:

From _Letters of JRR Tolkien_, _Letter _ 297, 


> …As to _Moria_ you are told what it means. [noparse][It][/noparse] is an Elvish ... name = Black Chasm. …
> 
> As for the ‘land of Morīah’ … has no connection (even ‘externally’) whatsoever. Internally there is no conceivable connection between the mining of Dwarves and the story of Abraham. I utterly repudiate any such significances and symbolisms. My mind does not work that way; and (in my view) you are led astray by a purely fortuitous similarity, more obvious in spelling than speech, which cannot be justified from the real intended significance of my story.


If, as you suggest, “Tolkien [noparse][was][/noparse] aware that this … had a strong connection to Masonic symbolism”, Mr. Rang, to whom _Letter _ 297 was addressed, irritated Tolkien by suggesting that he had included it for that reason, because Tolkien stomped on him: “*I utterly repudiate any such significances and symbolisms.*”


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## Astrance (Dec 20, 2009)

I don't think there's anything else to say after Alcuin's last post. Tolkien knew of the possible connection — and that's no less than what could be expected from such a scholar — but says, quite strongly, that it's irrelevant.

This reminds me of the whole Da Vinci Code BS (had to read the book because a friend gave it to me, expecting me to loooove it, and then had to reach for the nearest mind bleach, the whole story being so stupid). But it's not because similarities may exist that there is a cause/consequence relationship. Or then we could wonder if Fëanor could be Moses — with the sea-crossing thing, I think we could make up a few arguments. But it would be pure nonsense. There is *no* allegory in Tolkien's works — if you find some, then please yourself with it, but don't think they are intended or even meaningful.


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## macgyver (Dec 20, 2009)

wow. thanks for the detailed and impassioned reply. I especially enjoyed the remarks about my bad spelling.


I don't like to attack the hypocrisy of Catholic dogma, or any religious dogma, so apologies in advance to anyone who may be offended.

here is short list of church no,no's

1) pre marital sex
2) use of any birth control other than abstinence
3) Adultery [or the ten commandments collectivly] so toss in lieing stealing, killing people.

Now if your argument is that NO person of Catholic faith has ever violated any of those church restrictions. That's clearly NOT true.

Why all that time in the confessional booth then? [other than the fact that absolution is an excellent source of additional church income]

You could even make a strong argument that Catholics violate those things MORE often that other people because the process of confession and absolution grants them an easy way to take it all back and do it over, like playground style rules. Isn't than convenient?

If anything the church ever published was worth the paper it was printed on then how come generation after generation of children entrusted to their care were horribly abused and molested, a problem the church only deals with like a public relations problem, rather than a widespread failure at their core, on witch they chooses to pile more hypocrisy?

Now. does any of that prove Tolkien was a Freemason? Of course not. 

here is a link to the Irish Freemasons

http://www.irish-freemasons.org/

WTF!!!! how can their be freemasons in Ireland? a place where 87% of the people are Catholic and the church strictly forbids there to be such a thing?

amazing there it is. Masonic lodges packed with Irish Catholic Freemason. something YOU claim is impossible because the Church says NO.

and yet in England where only 8% of the population is Catholic. You claim it is an absolute impossibility for anyone who is Catholic to also be a Freemason. 

oops! here we go : 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholicism_in_England_and_Wales

where I got the following phrase:

Roman Catholicism continued in England, although it was subject to various forms of persecution, with most recusant members (except those in diaspora on the continent or part of the aristocracy) going underground for all practical purposes until 1832 when the Catholic Emancipation Act came into force.

Underground is an interesting phrase don't you think? what do you suppose they mean by underground?

Is there a wide spread organization in England, who has a plank value that includes freedom of religion? Can you guess? or did I already ruin the surprise? yeah. Freemasons. shock shock shock.

interesting enough, a large percentage of Catholics during that time belonged to lodges. No other organization at that time offered them better protection from prosecution, of the laws of England at that time.

Tolkien was born 60 years after the repeal of England's law.

but guess what? the guy behind the catholic emancipation of 1832 is this guy here:

Danial O'connell

http://www.freemasonry.bcy.ca/biography/oconnell_d/oconnell_d.html

WTF!!!!! a Catholic Freemason in England. how is that possible??? I thought the church said NO!!

Turns out thats an easy question to answer. The history of Catholics in England at this time is JAM PACKED with references to Freemasonry, and its Catholic members.

whoooops! You mean to tell me that the British Catholics who influenced Tolkien so completely, who belonged to masonic lodges in huge numbers. [contrary to what you have claimed] was an association completely UNKOWN to Tolkein. or that if they were known to him he thought of them in a negative light even though, they were the lone protectors of his right to be part of a Catholic minority in the first place?

and that is the basis of your argument that:

Tolkien + Catholic = Not a Freemason.

Is it possible that the very opposite is true???

Is it possible that his Catholic faith made Freemasonry more appealing and not less???

You Notice the Danial Oconnell denied that he was a Freemason too, when in fact he was the master of his lodge in Ireland.

*master of his lodge in Ireland!!!!!!!* emphasis added.

I would be more likely to believe that Tolkien did not become a Freemason, for the simple fact he was to busy doing other things. Then any silly Catholic excuse.

the Catholic explanation is total bunk. It does not matter how many pieces of paper the Catholic church printed or how many rules it "tried" to make its members follow. 

Even if there is a document hand written by Tolkien himself claiming NOT to be a member of the Freemasons. As with Daniel Oconnel and the fashion of many Catholic Freemasons of the time. THE TOTAL OPPOSITE could be the actual truth.

NOW having said all that. I am more than willing to accept that Tolkien may very well have NOT been a Freemason. Why? maybe he just didn't feel like joining. maybe just as simple as that. maybe they wouldn't let him smoke his pipe inside the lodge? and that was all the reason he needed not to join. I could accept that explanation. I could even accept his Catholic faith as an explanation. honestly it is as likely an explanation as anything else.

But . . . I don't accept the fact of his Catholic faith as IRON CLAD PROOF that it was impossible therefore that he could have been a Freemason.

I'm sorry but it just ain't so. Its not proof its bunk, bunk and more bunk.

there is NO code of conduct EVER published by the Catholic church that also corresponds to how Catholics *actually behave*.

BUNK, BUNK and more BUNK. sure there are many who try to do their best. But the truth is . . . it just ain't so.

I can get a piece of paper and claim that I have the power to fly and walk through walls. heck. I could even get the damn thing notarized. but come on . . . it just ain't so.

I could claim that my religious faith has to power to protect me from unwanted pregnancy from unprotected sex. and that my faith will protect me from Gonorrhea syphilis and even AIDS. and if I had a document supporting that claim signed by the Pope himself, along with a numbered and limited edition certificate of authenticity from the Franklin Mint . . . guess what? That's total bunk. 

sorry to all the faithful out there. It just ain't so.

Once again. I can accept that Tolkien may not have been a Freemason. that's totally within the realm of possibility. I know lots of people that aren't members of anything. No big deal.

oh, somone earlier asked about Carl Jung.FYI he was not [as far as I know] a freemason. However . . . his gradfather was the Grand Master of the Swiss lodge. [as well as a Rosicrucian] So its fair to say at a minimum Jung had an awareness. [to whatever degree] of Masonic symbolism. but I don't believe that was central in any way to his work. He certainly had a surplus of examples to draw from in every culture, without any need for extra stuff from the masons. Most of masonic symbolism is specialized, and in all likely hood held less interest for him and not more interest.

oh, somone claimed that ALL archways have keystones. Not so.
here are some examples of archways without keystones.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...mage_result&resnum=2&ct=image&ved=0CAoQ9QEwAQ

tolkeins gate to Moria is another example. the arch is smooth.

here is an archways WITH keystone. the enlarged stone in the middle.

http://www.whatdomormonsbelieve.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/arch-keystone.jpg


the enlarged keystone is important to masonic symbolism, and absent from tolkeins gate of Moria.


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## Astrance (Dec 20, 2009)

Now this thread is going absolutly nowhere. Who the f cares whether Catholics can be Freemasons or not ? This is completely irrelevant to the topic under discussion, viz was Tolkien a Freemason or not.

We said there is no evidence of this in his work or his letters or anything he ever wrote.
You answer by saying there's catholic Freemasons, which is true, but isn't a pro or a con for your hypothesis. Give us some sound proof, like a letter a speech or whatever, not a history of Catholicism in Freemasonry.


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## macgyver (Dec 20, 2009)

my mistake. it was NOT belladona Took as i previosly stated. It was Lobelia Took.

little herb encyclopedia,, third adition, pg 136 C.1995 by Jack Richardson
lobelia aka bladderpod, Indian tobacco, asthma weed, pukeweed.

[excerpt] specific in anit-smoking preparations 

[excerpt] Its the Lobeline salts used as a tobacco substitute in the body that make nicotine taste terrible when its smoked.

[excerpt] lobelia will generally induce vomiting when taken in very large does over a very short period of time.

Now. does ANYONE want to suggest that Tolkein didn't know?

thanks. next issue please


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## Alcuin (Dec 20, 2009)

macgyver said:


> wow. thanks for the detailed and impassioned reply. I especially enjoyed the remarks about my bad spelling.


I’m sorry, I must have missed something. Who said anything about your spelling? 



macgyver said:


> I don't like to attack the hypocrisy of Catholic dogma, or any religious dogma, so apologies in advance to anyone who may be offended.


Catholics would be the first to admit hypocrisy, which is a human failing not exclusive to Catholics. Tolkien talks about it in _Letter_ 250 to his son Michael, including his own shortcomings as a father and a Catholic.



macgyver said:


> here is short list of church no,no's


That’s not germane. 



macgyver said:


> Now if your argument is that NO person of Catholic faith has ever violated any of those church restrictions. That's clearly NOT true.


I never made that argument, as you are well are. I wrote, 


Alcuin said:


> I am quite certain that there are men who declare that they are practicing Roman Catholics who are also practicing Freemasons... Do these folks break the rules [noparse][of the Catholic Church][/noparse]? I’m quite sure they do. Are they supposed to? No.


I don’t believe anyone else argued, as you assert, that “that NO person of Catholic faith has ever violated any of those church restrictions.” This argument is specious, based on a false proposition.




macgyver said:


> Why all that time in the confessional booth then? [other than the fact that absolution is an excellent source of additional church income]
> 
> You could even make a strong argument that Catholics violate those things MORE often that other people because the process of confession and absolution grants them an easy way to take it all back and do it over, like playground style rules. Isn't than convenient?
> 
> If anything the church ever published was worth the paper it was printed on then how come generation after generation of children entrusted to their care were horribly abused and molested, a problem the church only deals with like a public relations problem, rather than a widespread failure at their core, on witch they chooses to pile more hypocrisy?


Again, this is not germane to a discussion of Tolkien: it is an _ad homonym_ attack. 




macgyver said:


> here is a link to the Irish Freemasons


I already cited my stipulation “that there are men who declare that they are practicing Roman Catholics who are also practicing Freemasons”. This is a red herring.



macgyver said:


> and yet in England where only 8% of the population is Catholic. You claim it is an absolute impossibility for anyone who is Catholic to also be a Freemason.


No, I did not. You are falsely attributing to me or *Turgon* or *Stockholm* or *Prince of Cats* something that none of us has claimed. I recall for the third time the stipulation recited for Irish Catholic Freemasons. 



macgyver said:


> WTF!!!!! a Catholic Freemason in England. how is that possible??? I thought the church said NO!!


I cite for a fourth time the stipulation recited for Irish Catholic Freemasons. We aren’t discussing whether Joe Blow is a Catholic and a Freemason, we are discussing whether JRR Tolkien, a devout Catholic profoundly attached to his faith and his church, was a Freemason. 



macgyver said:


> and that is the basis of your argument that:
> 
> Tolkien + Catholic = Not a Freemason.
> 
> Is it possible that the very opposite is true???


Quite possible. However, *you* have presented no convincing evidence other than your enthusiasm for it. Tolkien, when given an opportunity to divulge or stand pat on what _might _have been a presumed connection to Masonry, responded to a Mr. Rang in _Letter_ 297 in no uncertain terms,


> I utterly repudiate any such significances and symbolisms.





macgyver said:


> there is NO code of conduct EVER published by the Catholic church that also corresponds to how Catholics actually behave.
> 
> BUNK, BUNK and more BUNK. sure there are many who try to do their best. But the truth is . . . it just ain't so.


This is not the place to discuss theology. Let it suffice to say that Christianity is based upon the proposition that “...all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 2:12), that human agency alone is insufficient for redemption: divine intercession is required to put each individual aright. As to whether there is any “conduct EVER published by the Catholic church that also corresponds to how Catholics actually behave,” I think Catholics would vigorously disagree: the themes are repetitive through the past many centuries, because each generation keeps repeating what previous generations have done.



macgyver said:


> oh, somone earlier asked about Carl Jung.FYI he was not [as far as I know] a freemason. However . . . his gradfather was the Grand Master of the Swiss lodge. [as well as a Rosicrucian] So its fair to say at a minimum Jung had an awareness. [to whatever degree] of Masonic symbolism.


That would be me. My grandfather was a Mason, too. Did I magically inherit the same “awareness … of Masonic symbolism” that you tell us Carl Jung did?




macgyver said:


> oh, somone claimed that ALL archways have keystones. Not so.
> here are some examples of archways without keystones.


That would also be me. No, I implied that (ancient) Roman arches had keystones, and snidely remarked that your argument would make all the (ancient) Roman architects and engineers Freemasons. It was a bit of hyperbole in response to your statement,


macgyver said:


> in the previous postings some one suggested that the gates to the mines of Moria are a masonic symbol. for that to be correct the pillars on both sides of the archway would have to be different types, and the archway would have to have a key stone. without those details it can't be a masonic symbol or even an allusion to one.





macgyver said:


> tolkeins gate to Moria is another example. the arch is smooth.
> 
> here is an archways WITH keystone. the enlarged stone in the middle.
> 
> the enlarged keystone is important to masonic symbolism, and absent from tolkeins gate of Moria.


There’s no stonework at all in Tolkien’s drawing of the West Gate of Moria. It’s a depiction of the _ithildin_ made by Celebrimbor for the doors of Narvi. I was unaware that Masonic archways had both asymmetric pillars and enlarged keystones. I will remember it.




Stockholm said:


> Now this thread is going absolutly nowhere. … This is completely irrelevant to the topic under discussion, viz was Tolkien a Freemason or not.
> 
> We said there is no evidence of this in his work or his letters or anything he ever wrote.
> You answer by saying there's catholic Freemasons, which is true, but isn't a pro or a con for your hypothesis. Give us some sound proof, like a letter a speech or whatever, not a history of Catholicism in Freemasonry.


*Stockholm *is right. If the Irish and English lodges are divulging the names of their deceased members, then they should be willing – even eager – to disclose Tolkien’s name, too, along with appropriate documentation.


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## Alcuin (Dec 20, 2009)

macgyver said:


> my mistake. it was NOT belladona Took as i previosly stated. It was Lobelia Took.
> 
> little herb encyclopedia,, third adition, pg 136 C.1995 by Jack Richardson
> lobelia aka bladderpod, Indian tobacco, asthma weed, pukeweed.
> ...


Oh, now *that* is delightful! Lobelia and the Sackville-Bagginses had considerable influence on the pipeweed business in Southfarthing, and they acted as provenders to Saruman, who financed their little commercial empire in the Shire. So _Lobelia_ ruined a good pipe of tobacco? And Pimples kept all the good stuff for himself and his ruffians? That’s rich!

*macgyver*, I suggest we abandon this thread and move along to more profitable subjects – like Lobelia ruining good pipeweed.


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## Astrance (Dec 20, 2009)

I must have missed something... Why is everybody suddenly speaking of pipe-weed, and Belladonna and Lobelia ? Are Freemasons the only ones to smoke pipes, poisoned of not ?


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## macgyver (Dec 21, 2009)

Stockholm said:


> Now this thread is going absolutly nowhere. Who the f cares whether Catholics can be Freemasons or not ? This is completely irrelevant to the topic under discussion, viz was Tolkien a Freemason or not.
> 
> We said there is no evidence of this in his work or his letters or anything he ever wrote.
> You answer by saying there's catholic Freemasons, which is true, but isn't a pro or a con for your hypothesis. Give us some sound proof, like a letter a speech or whatever, not a history of Catholicism in Freemasonry.




actually I would say it is Totally relevant. Since the ONLY proof offered that Tolkien was NOT a Freemason was in fact his Catholic faith.

Go back and read the thread. It was claimed by other people posting that the fact the Tolkien was a devout Catholic, means there is NO possible way he could then also be a Freemason.

I have demonstrated that to be a totally False Line of logic.

I have gone further than that and also demonstrated that his catholic faith [causing him to be a miniority religion in England] increases rather than decreases the probability that he may have been a freemason, and or associated with catholics, that he knew to be freemasons.

I even have admited that this in itself did NOT constitute proof that he was a freemason himself.


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## Eledhwen (Dec 21, 2009)

*Re: JRR Tolkien: True Blue Roman Catholic — or Closet Freemason?*

There is no evidence that J R R Tolkien was not a Freemason. There is also no evidence that he was. This entire thread is based on a "masonic reference that is unmistakeable". Unfortunately, the masonic reference is not revealed for scrutiny: "because of my oath to the masons I can't reveal on this forum the exact phrase" so anyone who might be able to say something like "It may be a masonic reference, but it's also common/used in in [other]" cannot do so. It might have been better if the thread starter had just thought to himself "What a pity I can't start a thread about this because of my masonic oath making the whole exercise pointless."

Let's get back to discussing Lobelia and pipeweed. Now, that fascinates me.


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## macgyver (Dec 21, 2009)

Stockholm said:


> I must have missed something... Why is everybody suddenly speaking of pipe-weed, and Belladonna and Lobelia ? Are Freemasons the only ones to smoke pipes, poisoned of not ?


well . . . I just tossed that little factoid out to demonstrate that Tolkein included ALOT of stuff for which there was deeper meaning. That gets missed by most of us. and . . . if you just guess, that Tolkein knew about the deeper connections or symbolism, with out proof of any kind . . . that you would probably guess right more often than wrong.

Like Gandalf is [if im not mistaken] an old english expression meaning grand elf.

now for all appearances sake. Gandalf was Human and not elvish. but . . . at the end of the return of the king. It is revealed that he is in fact a ring bearer himself. He had Narya the ring of fire. the first of three elven rings

its difficult to know Tolkien's mind on this. there is a lot thats immplied but not stated.

whats the connection to freemasonry? the "widows son" reference. As one poster pointed out. there are several references in the bible and the bible is where the Freemasons take it from.

Is it true that Tolkien is completely unaware of that connection? realy difficult to know. Its possible that Tolkien did intend something intirely different, than an obscure reference to Freemasonry.

If it is True that Tolkien was not a mason, or because of his catholic faith, was of an anti mason mind set. AND we assume that he did NOT know of any connection to Freemasonry in the expression . . .

now if you Google "widows son, fairy tale" you do in fact get lots of fairy tale references. [some of them seem pseudo masonic but not all of them]

If you Google "widows son" you get many Freemason links

If you Google "the luck of widows sons" you get many Tolkien links [and some masonic ones]

if you Google "widows son, bible" you get many bible links, and many Freemason links.

Its fair to say the Tolkien did know about the fairy tale links and the bible links. but did he know the connection to Free-masonic symbolism???


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## macgyver (Dec 21, 2009)

Originally Posted by *Stockholm* 

 
_Now this thread is going absolutly nowhere. … This is completely irrelevant to the topic under discussion, viz was Tolkien a Freemason or not.

We said there is no evidence of this in his work or his letters or anything he ever wrote.
You answer by saying there's catholic Freemasons, which is true, but isn't a pro or a con for your hypothesis. Give us some sound proof, like a letter a speech or whatever, not a history of Catholicism in Freemasonry._
*Stockholm *is right. If the Irish and English lodges are divulging the names of their deceased members, then they should be willing – even eager – to disclose Tolkien’s name, too, along with appropriate documentation.

yes. excellent point. and I would say better evidence that he is NOT a Freemason, then the fact of his Catholic faith.

with one caveat. Records form the lodges tend to be a bit spotty, depending on circumstances. somtimes lodges will combine together, and the older records, become kind of oddball misfit things. like an orphan. those documents _sometimes_ sent to the grand lodges for archiving, don't fit together with other documents in the natural way.

for example: Danial Boon is thought to have been a Freemason, because his son made reference to him receiving a masonic funeral, in his diary. but it is not know what lodge he belonged to. those lodges he was thought to have likely belonged to . . . have no record.

here where I live. John Sutter, [sutters fort, sutters mill, gold rush of 1849] Is the one who laid out the our downtown area on a numbered and lettered grid. the capital building faces the west with its back to the east. with bridges to the west and south. In effect laid out like a masonic lodge. One of the oldest buildings in down town on 12th and J streets, a national land mark, is the Masonic temple. 160 years old. houses three lodges one of which I am a member. there is NO known mention of John Sutter as a mason with 160 years of records available to us. It is strongly belived he was still a mason. It is possible he was a member of a lodge before he was a pioneer to this area.

as Tolkien is concerned. suppose he joined whats called a military lodge, during his service of WW I. [there is no proof of that] but suppose he did. those records if they survived would be difficult to come by.


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## Astrance (Dec 21, 2009)

Oh, for pity's sake, macgyver, just get a grip and stop this endless gibbersish ! You said all this before !

Now let's have a Nice Summary :
- Tolkien was Catholic, and there have been catholic Freemasons, so his faith is no valid objection. However, since you can't truly say that the vast majority of English Catholics are or were Freemasons, this just isn't a pro either. 
- Masonic symbolism in Tolkien's works : this could be a pro if a) Tolkien hadn't be so adamant that if you found allegories of any kind in his works, then you had smoked very good pot indeed b) said so-called masonic symbols weren't of such an elusive nature that none apart from you has ever been able to spot them before
- no lodge reclaimed Tolkien as a member. Since he died in a time where registers were probably kinda accurate, I'd say this pretty much rules him out.


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## Alcuin (Dec 21, 2009)

macgyver said:


> Like Gandalf is [if im not mistaken] an old english expression meaning grand elf.
> 
> now for all appearances sake. Gandalf was Human and not elvish. but . . . at the end of the return of the king. It is revealed that he is in fact a ring bearer himself. He had Narya the ring of fire. the first of three elven rings
> 
> its difficult to know Tolkien's mind on this. there is a lot thats immplied but not stated.


You are quite mistaken. _Gandalf_ is a name Tolkien borrowed from the _Völuspá_, the Icelandic _Eldar Edda_ in Old Norse. It means “elf of/with the/a wand”, Old Norse _gandr_ “staff” + _alfr_ “elf”. Humphrey Carter, in Tolkien’s biographer, translates it as “sorcerer-elf” (chapter “Enter Mr. Baggins”), and notes that it was first given to the chief dwarf in _The Hobbit_, the character we know as Thorin. The appearance of Gandalf was inspired by a painting by Josef Madlener, _Der Berggeist_, which translates as “The Mountain-spirit”, a postcard of which Tolkien “preserved … carefully, and … afterwards … wrote … ‘Origin of Gandalf’.” (Carter, _op cit._, end of the chapter “‘T.C., B.S., etc.’”) 

In _Letter_ 25 to the London _Observer_ published 20 February 1938 as a response to another letter in which a reader speculated about the origins of the origins of hobbits as “‘little furry men’ seen in Africa”, in which Tolkien wrote,


> The dwarf-names, and the wizard's, are from the Elder Edda.


Here are stanzas 10-15 of the Eldar Edda, with names that were used in _The Hobbit_ marked in bold, other Dwarf-names Tolkien borrowed in italics. Only the names “Óin” and “Balin” appear to have been invented by Tolkien, and they were rhymed with names in the list.


> There was Motsognir | the mightiest made
> Of all the dwarfs, | and _Durin_ next;
> Many a likeness | of men they made,
> The dwarfs in the earth, | as Durin said.
> ...


It isn’t difficult to understand Tolkien’s mind on this one at all. The “Origin of Gandalf” was well documented by Tolkien himself.


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## Bucky (Jan 15, 2010)

What Alcuin says sums things up very nicely.....

but in this day and age, as I've often said, Tolkien geeks seem hell bent on putting words in the author's mouth to fit _their _agenda regardless of what Tolkien or his texts say, even when the facts are brought to their attention in black and white. The problem isn't so bad here as on some other sites, but look at all the kooky theories out there with no textual backing.......

'And everyone did what was right in their own eyes' - Judges


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## Astrance (Jan 15, 2010)

Exactly ! When you see some even think Tom Bombadil was a traversite Angmar Witch-king, you begin to think some people are just hopeless...


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## sirjake88 (Jan 29, 2010)

I started reading LOTRs last night and couldn't help noticing that some of the images, symbols and various other things point towards Tolkien at the very least being inspired by mason symbols and ideas. The first thing I noticed was the fact that hobbits 'come of age' at 33. - A very important masonic number. Why that age? Hmmmm? 

I'm not saying Tolkien was a mason but it would not suprise me if it came out that he was.


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## Úlairi (Jan 29, 2010)

Christ died and rose from the dead at the age of 33: also a very important number for Christians.

*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


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