# What if Ar-Pharazon seized the One Ring?



## Arthur_Vandelay (May 21, 2005)

Hypothetical: having triumphed over Sauron, Ar-Pharazon seizes the Ring.

How would things have panned out from there onwards?


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## Alatar (May 21, 2005)

He might beable to overtrow sauron, or he would be a wraith.
Gandalf said any ring of power turn a man into a wraith.
So he could become a dark lord. Or should i say THE dark lord?


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## Arthur_Vandelay (May 21, 2005)

Alatar said:


> He might beable to overtrow sauron, or he would be a wraith.
> Gandalf said any ring of power turn a man into a wraith.
> So he could become a dark lord. Or should i say THE dark lord?



Certainly. But would he still have attempted to invade Valinor? With a bigger army?


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## Confusticated (May 21, 2005)

He then seeks more dominion over Middle-earth. Numenoreans increase in Middle-earth. Lesser men are enslaved, made to fight for Ar-pharazon. News of this reaches the elves, they are uneasy. Eventually war breaks out between the Numenoreans and the elves. By this time Ar-pharazon has built a huge army, and with the power of the ring the elves are helpless against him. There may even be genocide. Some of the elves sail to Valinor seeking aid, and many more just go there to escape. Maybe aid comes, but it isn't enough. What you have now is kind of a repeat of what happened with Morgoth. 

When Ar-pharazon's power is great enough, and most the elves have run away to Valinor and the dwarves are hidden or fleed into the far east, Ar-Pharazon will think of Aman more and more. The only threat to him now, and the most valuable land left to be won. He will send his armies against them, and then he will be taken down by the Valar and the Ring destroyed.


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## Arthur_Vandelay (May 21, 2005)

Nóm said:


> He then seeks more dominion over Middle-earth. Numenoreans increase in Middle-earth. Lesser men are enslaved, made to fight for Ar-pharazon. News of this reaches the elves, they are uneasy. Eventually war breaks out between the Numenoreans and the elves. By this time Ar-pharazon has built a huge army, and with the power of the ring the elves are helpless against him. There may even be genocide. Some of the elves sail to Valinor seeking aid, and many more just go there to escape. Maybe aid comes, but it isn't enough. What you have now is kind of a repeat of what happened with Morgoth.
> 
> When Ar-pharazon's power is great enough, and most the elves have run away to Valinor and the dwarves are hidden or fleed into the far east, Ar-Pharazon will think of Aman more and more. The only threat to him now, and the most valuable land left to be won. He will send his armies against them, and then he will be taken down by the Valar and the Ring destroyed.



That does seem the most likely scenario. The Faithful Numenoreans would have joined the Elves, I think. And I doubt that many of the Northmen would have sided with Ar-Pharazon. Nonetheless, even these would have been powerless, in the end, to withstand the Numenorean onslaught.


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## Ithrynluin (May 21, 2005)

The end result would have been the same - Eru would have opened up the seas which would have devoured Numenor along with the Numenoreans. The only question is whether this would have occured at the same point as it did in the Akallabeth - i.e. when setting foot in Aman - or earlier? Would Eru have allowed the Numenoreans to dominate the whole of Middle-earth and drive out/slaughter/enslave all of its current inhabitants?

Another thing: When Ar-Pharazon took Sauron hostage to Numenor, Sauron's armies were far from ready. At the Battle of the Last Alliance (and prior to that, ever since forging the Ring), Sauron's armies were prepared _and_ he wielded the Ring, and the good peoples still managed to defeat him in the end. Was a ring-wearing Ar-Pharazon really mightier than a ring-wearing Sauron, and his armies really that much greater?


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## Confusticated (May 21, 2005)

Don't see why not, unless by slave and slaughter "all" the inhabitants of Middle-earth you mean it literally.


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## Arthur_Vandelay (May 21, 2005)

Ithrynluin said:


> The end result would have been the same - Eru would have opened up the seas which would have devoured Numenor along with the Numenoreans. The only question is whether this would have occured at the same point as it did in the Akallabeth - i.e. when setting foot in Aman - or earlier? Would Eru have allowed the Numenoreans to dominate the whole of Middle-earth and drive out/slaughter/enslave all of its current inhabitants?
> 
> Another thing: When Ar-Pharazon took Sauron hostage to Numenor, Sauron's armies were far from ready. At the Battle of the Last Alliance (and prior to that, ever since forging the Ring), Sauron's armies were prepared _and_ he wielded the Ring, and the good peoples still managed to defeat him in the end. Was a ring-wearing Ar-Pharazon really mightier than a ring-wearing Sauron, and his armies really that much greater?



As a Maiar, one would expect Sauron to be mightier. I suppose a lot depends upon what Ar-Pharazon would have done with the armies Sauron did have under his command--would he have destroyed them, or would they have flocked to his banner? Would any of Sauron's enemies have flocked to Ar-Pharazon's banner, if wielded the Ring?


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## Confusticated (May 21, 2005)

Ithrynluin said:


> Another thing: When Ar-Pharazon took Sauron hostage to Numenor, Sauron's armies were far from ready. At the Battle of the Last Alliance (and prior to that, ever since forging the Ring), Sauron's armies were prepared _and_ he wielded the Ring, and the good peoples still managed to defeat him in the end. Was a ring-wearing Ar-Pharazon really mightier than a ring-wearing Sauron, and his armies really that much greater?



Don't see why Arphy wouldn't have built up an army just like Sauron did. Only this time there are no Numenoreans to oppose him. At the time of Ar-pharazon the faithful were so few that any fighting they do against would have to be similar to Frodo and Sam's style of fighting Sauron. Not with force. With a little cunning he could win many people over, especially as he increased his domain and the plunders kept coming in, this along with slave labour would mean great profits for those who fight on his side. His people would thrive, some might say this is a good king to have.

But I think a lot depends on how soon the elves heard about the Ring, and decided to take action about what is happening. Considering many of them ran back to Eressea as Sauron's shadow grew during the Second Age, I suspect they would do the same if Ar-pharazon were able to put up a good fight, which the numerous Numenoreans would be, in my opinion.


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## Alatar (May 21, 2005)

Well if he over threw sauron, he would then have to slaughter the faithfull, he would. Take saurons armys (the surrenderd without a fight) so he has a army the elves woulnt fight, and a army bigger then that army. He would take over ME the elves would flee. and as he only invade vailnor as he was getting old and saurons lies he would happily enlave all of the worls with out causing the valar to move.
The Istari would be sent and they would have to use open power till they won.


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## Thorondor_ (May 21, 2005)

If Ar-Pharazon seized the One Ring, he would be even more of a puppet to Sauron. If that ring can corrupt even the purest known Istari - Gandalf - what protection could a corrupt numenorean have against the evilness of the ring? Sauron, after getting thus the complete control over the king, would take his ring back, would retreat to Middle-Earth and Ar-Pharazon would do all the evil deeds for Sauron and would take the heat when the valar come knocking down the door. And Sauron would laugh all the way and get ready for *his* showdown with Valinor.


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## Arthur_Vandelay (May 21, 2005)

He would have been a puppet of Evil (Melkor?): he would have destroyed Sauron. Just as Gandalf, Saruman or Aragorn would have destroyed him. Gandalf did not fear being destroyed by Sauron if he claimed the Ring; he feared he would "become" Sauron.


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## Confusticated (May 21, 2005)

Wow.... I'm not sure I think Ar-Pharazon would have been able to defeat Sauron if he somehow got hold of the Ring while Sauron lived. Sauron would have been too close by when it happened, and taken action before Ar-pharazon could learn to put the Ring to sufficient use. When I answered before I assumed Sauron had already been destroyed.


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## Hammersmith (May 21, 2005)

Surely while his power increases his susceptibility to trickery and intrigue remains the same? Would not Sauron have fooled him into worshipping Melkor and attacking the Vala exactly as the Akalabeth details? Ar Pharazon would have been stronger, certainly, but strength was not the prime factor in his deeds.


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## Arthur_Vandelay (May 21, 2005)

Nóm said:


> Wow.... I'm not sure I think Ar-Pharazon would have been able to defeat Sauron if he somehow got hold of the Ring while Sauron lived. Sauron would have been too close by when it happened, and taken action before Ar-pharazon could learn to put the Ring to sufficient use. When I answered before I assumed Sauron had already been destroyed.



We must assume, then, that Ar-Pharazon did not know of the Ring's existence or its nature. If he did, then seizing it and mastering it would have become more of an immediate priority than assailing Valinor (in which he would have believed the Ring could aid him). I think he would have seen Sauron as a threat, and would have at least tried to destroy him.

Now, Sauron was destroyed--for all intents and purposes--when the Ring was destroyed. But had the Ring been seized (whether by Ar-Pharazon, or Saruman, or Gandalf, or Aragorn, or Denethor, or Boromir), _could_ Sauron have been destroyed?


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## Aiglos (May 22, 2005)

Perhaps, but only to be replaced by another tyrant, if not a "Dark Lord"...

Whoever used it as a weapon would have been "turned".


Sauron was a Maiar of Aule. Infinitely more powerful than the Noldor, and maybe even than Gandalf.

In general, I would never expect a mortal to defeat him, even with the Ring.

Ar Pharazon was destroyed for the exact reason that he chose to challenge "the Spirits" instead of his usual wars against other mortal races. The Ring would not have availed him against the Valar, just as I doubt it would have ever availed Sauron against them. We are talking many magnitudes of difference in strength and power here.

Maybe Elrond, Galadriel, Cirdan or one of the Istari could challenge Sauron with the Ring, but then you would have another tyrant, and it would all have been rather pointless.


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## Inderjit S (May 22, 2005)

Perhaps he would have found what he was looking for-immortality, but he would not have the power to control the ring itself. I think they still would have gone to Aman and would have been destroyed by Aman. Even if they had gone to Aman and Eru didn't intervene they still would have lost, but would have taken a lot of lives too. If they went to Middle-Earth then the faithful and the Elves would have little chance, especially with Pharazon's other allies in Middle-Earth.

One thing I will never understand is why Sauron didn't go to Middle-Earth first, defeat the Elves with the help of Pharazon and then go to Valinor, coming back to a Middle-Earth which was under his sway.


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## Thorondor_ (May 22, 2005)

How could Ar-Pharazon find immortality with the help of the ring? Gandalf states that the ring doesn't prolong life.




> One thing I will never understand is why Sauron didn't go to Middle-Earth first, defeat the Elves with the help of Pharazon and then go to Valinor, coming back to a Middle-Earth which was under his sway.


 
Because Sauron knew a second messenger would reach Valinor and a second war of wrath would ensue. And Sauron would never attack Valinor, he is a freaking fallen Maia against Eru knows how many Valar/Maiar would come to the rescue; he sent Ar-Pharazon there just to get rid of him. And Sauron knows Eru would always intervene to save Valinor if it was in real danger of falling, else the creation of Eru is gone down the drain.


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## Inderjit S (May 22, 2005)

> Because Sauron knew a second messenger would reach Valinor and a second war of wrath would ensue. And Sauron would never attack Valinor, he is a freaking fallen Maia against Eru knows how many Valar/Maiar would come to the rescue; he sent Ar-Pharazon there just to get rid of him. And Sauron knows Eru would always intervene to save Valinor if it was in real danger of falling, else the creation of Eru is gone down the drain.



Your points make no sense. Sauron knew a second messenger would reach Valinor and a War of Wrath would ensue? What? What are you talking about? And when did I say Sauron would attack Valinor? Perhaps my words were ambigious, I don't know, what I meant to say was that I don't know why Sauron didn't use Pharazon's armed might to attack Middle-Earth before using Pharazon to attack Valinor, as he did. 

Gandalf tells Frodo that any mortal who bears a great ring become immortal, though he would also become a wraith.


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## Thorondor_ (May 22, 2005)

> what I meant to say was that I don't know why Sauron didn't use Pharazon's armed might to attack Middle-Earth before using Pharazon to attack Valinor, as he did


 


> coming back to a Middle-Earth which was under his sway


 
What do you mean my points make no sense? If the elves are oppressed beyond imagination, why wouldn't they send a new messenger to Valinor? And why wouldn't Valinor respond? And that point in the story, Valinor was still part of this world. In LotR, Valinor is no longer a part of this world and *would not *intervene directly. And this is why I believe Sauron would launch an all-fronts attack on Middle-Earh in LotR time, but not so before the "departure" of Valinor.


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## Inderjit S (May 23, 2005)

> What do you mean my points make no sense? If the elves are oppressed beyond imagination, why wouldn't they send a new messenger to Valinor? And why wouldn't Valinor respond? And that point in the story, Valinor was still part of this world. In LotR, Valinor is no longer a part of this world and would not intervene directly. And this is why I believe Sauron would launch an all-fronts attack on Middle-Earh in LotR time, but not so before the "departure" of Valinor.



As far as I know all the Valar did to help Middle-Earth was send Glorfindel, and maybe a few other Elves, and possibly the Blue Wizards to the East. Why didn't the Valar help in other situations when the Elves were being "opressed"? Why help exiled Elves and not Men? I thought the War of Wrath was the Valar's last intervention in the world. Why didn't they just attack Numenor to help the opressed faithful? Because it was not their task to do so. I don't have any of the books with me at the moment, so I am handicapped but I am pretty sure that the War of Wrath was their final proper involvement in Middle-Earth.


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## Thorondor_ (May 23, 2005)

> Why didn't the Valar help in other situations when the Elves were being "opressed"?
> Why didn't they just attack Numenor to help the opressed faithful?


 
I said oppressed beyond imagination, they shouldn't jump everytime there is any sort of oppresion, only when the very pillars of the Creation are at great risk (Valinor, Eru's Children, etc). They saw the limits of their reasoning; even if they intended good, they did release Melkor, and they did brought the elves to Aman (and later, after the fall of Numenor, they saw their mistake of giving mortal humans more gifts than Eru gave). So, I guess it's a slow process of understanding of behalf of the Valar - that they should only intervene directly when there is no other way. And after the fall of Numenor, I bet they would only intervene *indirectly*. But, what we discuss takes places _before_ this event; only after this do they realise how bad they can judge things.



> Why help exiled Elves and not Men?


Didn't the Valar help humans also when defeated Melkor? Or there is another point to the question?



> The War of Wrath was their final proper involvement in Middle-Earth


I would say their last major involvment would be to ask Eru to intervene in the earthly matters. That is the best card they could *ever* play; with that, they can change any course of events to their liking.


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## Inderjit S (May 24, 2005)

> I said oppressed beyond imagination, they shouldn't jump everytime there is any sort of oppresion, only when the very pillars of the Creation are at great risk (Valinor, Eru's Children, etc). They saw the limits of their reasoning; even if they intended good, they did release Melkor, and they did brought the elves to Aman (and later, after the fall of Numenor, they saw their mistake of giving mortal humans more gifts than Eru gave). So, I guess it's a slow process of understanding of behalf of the Valar - that they should only intervene directly when there is no other way. And after the fall of Numenor, I bet they would only intervene indirectly. But, what we discuss takes places before this event; only after this do they realise how bad they can judge things.



I am pretty sure the Elves and Men were opressed beyond imagination during the Black Years. The Valar knew it as they sent Glorfindel, but no armies. Why? Because their last proper intervention was the War of Wrath. They would not intervene again to save the peoples of Middle-Earth. The War of Wrath was their last intervention. And how did they contravene Eru when giving gifts to the men of Numenor? They didn't give them any new gifts, that was beyond their power, they merely lengthened their age to the original age of men, before they were corrupted by Melkor. How bad they can judge things? I think the "very pillars of creation" were at risk a lot of times when the Valar chose not to intervene. 



> Didn't the Valar help humans also when defeated Melkor? Or there is another point to the question?


What?



> I would say their last major involvment would be to ask Eru to intervene in the earthly matters. That is the best card they could ever play; with that, they can change any course of events to their liking.



That was not a intervention per se, they were merely trying to protect their realm from Numenor-they didn't know what Eru would do to protect them.


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## Alatar (May 24, 2005)

Inderjit S said that sauron should of used Ar P to get ME under his sway, ie; killing the faithful and finishiing his war with the elves in lindon and rivendell, the going to Num to wave goodbye to the king. As of now the valar would do nothing as it is the numenorians who are fighting.
Then they would be forced to call on Eru destroing numenor, then sauron would go back to ME and enslave the men there.
This is after the change of the world so the valar will do nothing(On a army scale).
GOT THAT! 


Thorondor said:


> Gandalf states that the ring doesn't prolong life.


From the fellowship of the ring, The shadow of the past.


> "A mortal, Frodo, who keeps a great ring does not die,"


I will say no more.


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## Thorondor_ (May 24, 2005)

"The Valar knew it as they sent Glorfindel, but no armies. Why?"
The Valar would intervene massively, if I may say so, only after a messenger from M-E would come to Valinor and ask this. And this was Earendil, who came to Valinor *after* Glorfindel came to M-E, this is why no army was sent before.
"And how did they contravene Eru when giving gifts to the men of Numenor? They didn't give them any new gifts, that was beyond their power, they merely lengthened their age to the original age of men, before they were corrupted by Melkor."
Inderjit, I didn't say the Valar contradicted Eru when giving humans those gifts, I only said they realised they made a mistake. 
About the gifts given to numenoreans: men of the three faithful Houses and those who have joined them *were richly rewarded*, for *Eonwe came among them and thaught them and gave them wisdom, power and a life* . I was reffering to these gifts, and esspecially to the gift of power, without which the numenoreans could never grew so great and so proud.
About the mistakes of the valar:



> And this the Valar did, desiring to *amend the errors of old*, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed


 
In my opinion the worst judgement on behalf of the Valar was the release of Melkor, the second was inviting the elves to Valinor and the third one as importance was the gifts given to the numenoreans.


Alatar, you didn't provide the full quote:


> A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness...[]
> Of course it is a poor sort of long life that the Ring gives, a kind of stretched life rather than a continued growing - a sort of thinning and thinning


 

I wouldn't call this "_poor sort of life"_ a life in itself, it would be a twisting of the word and its normal meaning for us, humans. If you do want to call it "life", then you are right to say that the one ring gives immortality. Otherwise, I don't think so.


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## Alatar (May 24, 2005)

You said that gandalf said the ring dosn't prolong life, HE DID. The qulity dosen't matter, it prolongs your life! FACT!
I never said that the ring gave life, just prolongs it. Gandalf said that to.


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## Thorondor_ (May 24, 2005)

Quality doesn't matter? Then, elves and orcs are pretty much the same? Maiar and balrogs are pretty much the same? Melkor and any Ainu are pretty much the same? What kind of world is this, where there is no colour and no black and no white even?? Tolkien's view of the world is very religious, I doubt he would ever say quality doesn't matter.
Oxford dictionary definition of life: "the condition that distinguishes animals and plants from inorganic matter, including the capacity for *growth* and functional activity"
And one who is under the complete influence of the ring is even _bellow_ inorganic matter level (not to speak above it), his body is no longer of this world, but of the subtle world of "hell". Therefore, *whatever* he "enjoys", it is not life.


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## Inderjit S (May 24, 2005)

> The Valar would intervene massively, if I may say so, only after a messenger from M-E would come to Valinor and ask this. And this was Eärendil, who came to Valinor after Glorfindel came to M-E, this is why no army was sent before



Glorfindel returned to Middle-Earth in the Second Age, after Sauron had attacked the Elves. He was killed in Gondolin beforehand. Eärendil’s case was special-he had the Silmaril and it was decreed by Mandos that Eärendil would come, Eärendil was merely continuing Eru's plan, as seen by Mandos, so his plea was accepted. 

Why didn't the Valar help if the Amandil reached them as a emmisary? Why would they need emissaries? If they loved them as you say then they would have helped anyway. Eärendil as an emissary was important as it was his pre-destined role. 

My point being was that the Valar did not help the Elves during the War in Beleriand because it was not their role to do so, just as it wouldn’t have been their role to so had the Númenóreans invaded Middle-Earth. 



> In my opinion the worst judgement on behalf of the Valar was the release of Melkor, the second was inviting the elves to Valinor and the third one as importance was the gifts given to the numenoreans.



"Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the wise cannot see all ends" Do not be too eager to judge as you see fit, for even the most logical decision can go awry and the illogical ones can work for the general good. The Valar promised Melkor they would release him after a set period and if he had repented. Some may have seen through him, but if they had gone against their promise then they would have become like him, breaking promises was not the domain of Manwë but of Melkor. And if Melkor hadn't been released-would things have been better then? And how was the giving of gifts to the Numenoreans a mistake? Should the Elves have withheld their teachings too? Men naturally wished for immortality, or saw death as a curse, the Númenóreans with the help of the Valar's gifts saw death as a gift, when they began to disobey the Valar they yearned for what they could not get.


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## Inderjit S (May 24, 2005)

Thorondor, you said "How could Ar-Pharazon find immortality with the help of the ring? Gandalf states that the ring doesn't prolong life.", Alatar gave is thos quote "A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness...", which refuted your original point, you then responded with waffle which has nothing to do with the point in question. Nice. You also supported my original point. Thanks.


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## Greenwood (May 24, 2005)

To return to the original question of the thread, I agree with those who said that if Ar-Pharazon had seized the Ring he would just have been further enslaved to it and its master Sauron. Sauron would have just taken it back. Gandalf, or perhaps one of the mighty among the Eldar might have been able to completely vanquish Sauron using the Ring, and in the process become a new Sauron, but I don't think a mere mortal could have done it. In his letters, Tolkien talks about what would have happened if Gollum hadn't regained the Ring and fallen into the Cracks of Doom. He says the Nazgul would have arrived and tricked Frodo into staying there until Sauron could come himself and take back the Ring.

In the chapter "The Last Debate" in The Return of the King, when asked why Sauron does not fear to attack them if he thinks they have the Ring, Gandalf says because Sauron knows it would take time for even one of the mighty among them to learn to wield the Ring. He argues that their march on the Black Gate will make Sauron think that they do have the Ring and that Sauron only has to capture them to regain the Ring. Mere possession of the Ring does not make its possessor mightier than Sauron immediately. The possessor must have considerable power of his own and must learn to wield the power of the Ring.

Of course, there is the other point that at the time Tolkien wrote the story of Numenor and its fall, he had not yet invented the Ring, so the whole question is moot.


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## Arthur_Vandelay (May 25, 2005)

Greenwood said:


> To return to the original question of the thread, I agree with those who said that if Ar-Pharazon had seized the Ring he would just have been further enslaved to it and its master Sauron. Sauron would have just taken it back.



If you compare to the hypothetical scenario canvassed in "The Last Debate"--whether Sauron would fear his enemies if they had the Ring--at that time he had great forces at his disposal. 

In the hypothetical situation I am canvassing, Sauron is in captivity. I think it would be easier to take the ring from him in that case--though I also agree that it would have been possible, provided that he had not in some fashion been destroyed (or banished for a time sufficient for Ar-Pharazon to learn how to master the Ring), for Sauron to get it back.


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## Thorondor_ (May 25, 2005)

Inderjit, the point in question was your statement: "Perhaps he would have found what he was looking for-immortality". If you and Alatar consider that you can take the quality of life out of the meaning of life, fine by me; in that case both of you are right in your posts. I certainly do doubt that what Ar-Pharazon was looking for was to become a slave of the dark power, enduring _"a poor sort of life"_. Can you please explain what you mean by "Why didn't the Valar help if the Amandil reached them as a emmisary? "
About your affirmation: "My point being was that the Valar did not help the Elves during the War in Beleriand because it was not their role to do so, just as it wouldn’t have been their role to so had the Númenóreans invaded Middle-Earth. " I already said that Valinor would still protect M-E if a new dark power would threaten to rule the whole of it in a very oppresive way, because Valinor was still a part of the world. I think we both stated our arguments, so ... perhaps this discussion is settled.
"Why would they need emissaries? If they loved them as you say then they would have helped anyway. " No, the Valar have been defied, and the noldor left at an unproper hour to attack M-E, and the Valar stated they would help with a condition, the arrival of an emissary. You once made a good argument about the keeping of promises in Tolkien's world.
As I have said, the valar were wrong from the very begining in believing Melkor could/would repent, their promise to release him was a follow-up to that initial mistake.
"And how was the giving of gifts to the Numenoreans a mistake? Should the Elves have withheld their teachings too?" I already stated I was reffering primarily to the gift of power, which power brought pride and the downfall , please re-read my post. And yes, _certain_ teachings should be hidden from a person, if that person can't use them wisely and in the interest of good.
"Men naturally wished for immortality or saw death as a curse" - no, it was Melkor's deeds who induced to humans their fears, made their life miserable and made them wish for more when they already have what the gods envy.



> Of course, there is the other point that at the time Tolkien wrote the story of Numenor and its fall, he had not yet invented the Ring, so the whole question is moot.


What do you mean Greenwood? When he wrote the story of Numenor, none of the power rings were invented?


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## Ingwë (May 25, 2005)

LotR: Chapter _'The Council of Elrond'_

*If any of the Wise should with this Ring overthrow the Lord of Mordor, using his own arts, he would then set himself on Sauron's throne, and yet another Dark Lord would appear.*

It is said _Wise_ but I think Ar-Pharazon can overthrow Sauron and the situation would be the same.
We know what does it mean. Dark lord in the Middle earth - wars, death, blood.


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## Greenwood (May 25, 2005)

Thorondor said:


> What do you mean Greenwood? When he wrote the story of Numenor, none of the power rings were invented?


Thorondor,

Tolkien wrote The Silmarillion and The Akallabeth (or at least the first versions of them) in the 1920's and 1930's. The Lord of the Rings was not thought of until after the demand for a sequel to The Hobbit which was published in 1937. In The Hobbit, Bilbo's ring is merely a magic ring that conveys invisibility. Once Tolkien accepted the idea of doing a sequel to The Hobbit he decided that the ring should become the key element linking the two stories. He thus changed the entire nature of the ring into a great ruling Ring made by Sauron and he linked everything to his earlier, unpublished writings in that way. Thus, when Tolkien first wrote of Numenor and its downfall, he had not yet conceived of The Ring or the other lesser rings. The rings, quite literally, had not been invented yet.


Ingwe,

In the Council of Elrond chapter it refers to one of The Wise taking the Ring and assailing Sauron with its power, they are clearly speaking of beings such as wizards, Gandalf or Saruman, or one of the great elf lords such as Elrond, Glorfindel, Galadriel, Cirdan, etc. It is not referring to mortals, such as Ar-Pharazon.


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## Ingwë (May 26, 2005)

Greenwood said:


> Ingwe,
> 
> In the Council of Elrond chapter it refers to one of The Wise taking the Ring and assailing Sauron with its power, they are clearly speaking of beings such as wizards, Gandalf or Saruman, or one of the great elf lords such as Elrond, Glorfindel, Galadriel, Cirdan, etc. It is not referring to mortals, such as Ar-Pharazon.


 
Greewood,

Let me see. Ar-Pharazon the Golden assailed the Dark land of Mordor and took bach Sauron to Númenor as a hostage. He captured Sauron the Dark lord of Mordor! He was enough powerful to capture Sauron and perhaps to take the One Ring. And he was a Men, though he is Númenorean he is a Men. He will fell inder the shadow of the Ring, he will become a toy of the Ring and he will kill, kill, kill and destroy his enemies. He can't use the Power of the Ring. But he will be the next Dark lord.


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## Aiglos (May 26, 2005)

I disagree Ingwe. It is explicit in the texts that Sauron "allowed" himself to be taken to Numenor, where he achieved a great victory against the Valar. He turned the Land of Gift and the Numenoreans rotten, to the very core. His temple to Melkor was even built over the ruins of the Hyarmentir, the airs of Varda, the highest point on Numenor.It was perfectly within his design to make this happen. By appearing once again as Atanatar, a good and wise Maia or Eldarin Elf, he fooled the Numenoreans in exactly the same way as he'd tricked Celebrimbor when the rings were forged.

As for what would happen to "The Golden" if he seized the One Ring. Look no further than Angmar and the eight other "mortal men" who accepted Rings Of Power. How much worse would the effect of the One Ring have been....!

Wraiths. No one but the Wise could have wielded the Ring without it wasting them away, but even then, the bearer would be "turned to the Dark Side" (oops, sorry about that, what forum was I in again!)


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## Ingwë (May 26, 2005)

Aiglos said:


> As for what would happen to "The Golden" if he seized the One Ring. Look no further than Angmar and the eight other "mortal men" who accepted Rings Of Power. How much worse would the effect of the One Ring have been....!


 
Aiglos, The Ringwraiths are servants of the One Ring, of Sauron. They are under the control of the Sauron's Ring. Their rings are not so powerful. The situation of the One Ring is different.


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## Thorondor_ (May 26, 2005)

"The rings, quite literally, had not been invented yet." So, what was the fate of Sauron in the non-ring version?
"he achieved a great victory against the Valar" - that is is one way of putting it. I would look at the fact that the power given to the Numenoreans by Eonwe, as a reward, was the very fact that made it possible for the rotting of the Numenoreans to be instilled. It was too much for them to wield with wisdom an in the interest of good; and very likely, there is a treshold of power that corrupts anyone. the primarily example is Melkor, he had the greatest power of all the creatons of Eru - he couldn't handle it with wisdom an in the interest of good, he fell prey to that power. So I don't think we could throw the stone at anyone for fallling prey to _too much _power. 
The hearts of the numenoreans were already on the bad side when they began oppressing cities in M-E. Sauron just played with them (after all, he outplayed even the purest creatures in M-E, as you well pointed).


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## Greenwood (May 26, 2005)

Ingwe,

Aiglos is exactly correct. The text is quite clear. Ar-Pharazon did not defeat Sauron. Sauron surrendered and allowed himself to be taken back to Numenor where he quickly took control of Ar-Pharazon's will. Ar-Pharazon was not one of the Wise. There is no reason to think any mortal could have mastered the One Ring. Besides, as I have pointed out, when Tolkien wrote that part of his history he hadn't yet thought of the rings, so to argue much about the effect of the One Ring on Ar-Pharazon is really a moot point.




Thorondor said:


> So, what was the fate of Sauron in the non-ring version?


That should be "pre-Ring" version. At that time, Tolkien was writing his own version of the Atlantis legend. Rings of any kind do not come into it. I don't know that he elaborated the story beyond the destruction of Numenor.


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## Ingwë (May 27, 2005)

Greenwood said:


> Ingwe,
> 
> Aiglos is exactly correct. The text is quite clear. Ar-Pharazon did not defeat Sauron. Sauron surrendered and allowed himself to be taken back to Numenor where he quickly took control of Ar-Pharazon's will. Ar-Pharazon was not one of the Wise. There is no reason to think any mortal could have mastered the One Ring. Besides, as I have pointed out, when Tolkien wrote that part of his history he hadn't yet thougBut he maht of the rings, so to argue much about the effect of the One Ring on Ar-Pharazon is really a moot point.



Greenwood, 

He/She is correct but the situation with the One ring is different. No one can control the Ring because it was made by Sauron himself. But someone can *overthow Sauron. * Sauron can be destroyed though he is a Maia. No mortal, no elf can rule the One Ring but they can use it! But the Ring will not 'listen' his owner bacause that owner will not be his master. The Ring has only one master - Sauron. But if someone defeat Sauron he will be the Dark lord. Not Dark lord because Sauron will be alive while the Ring is still undestroyed. The one who would overthrow Sauron will be a toy in the hands of Sauron - The One Ring. He can use it but he cannot command it.


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## Greenwood (May 27, 2005)

Ingwë said:


> He/She is correct but the situation with the One ring is different. No one can control the Ring because it was made by Sauron himself. But someone can *overthow Sauron. * Sauron can be destroyed though he is a Maia. No mortal, no elf can rule the One Ring but they can use it! But the Ring will not 'listen' his owner bacause that owner will not be his master. The Ring has only one master - Sauron. But if someone defeat Sauron he will be the Dark lord. Not Dark lord because Sauron will be alive while the Ring is still undestroyed. The one who would overthrow Sauron will be a toy in the hands of Sauron - The One Ring. He can use it but he cannot command it.


I am not entirely sure what you are trying to say, however, no mortal (and Ar-Pharazon was certainly a mortal) can destroy Sauron using the Ring. According to LOTR one of the Wise could use the Ring to get rid of Sauron, but only at the cost of essentially becoming a new Sauron themselves. As long as Sauron had the Ring Ar-Pharazon could not really defeat him. Even if Sauron were to give Ar-Pharazon the Ring, it would only be for as long as it took to corrupt Ar-Pharazon and then Sauron would just tell him to give it back. Of course, according to the story, Sauron didn't even have to do that. He corrupted Ar-Pharazon just by his influence.


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## Thorondor_ (May 27, 2005)

If what you say is true, and it does make sense, what would be your explanation of Gandalf words, that Sauron would fear a numenorean king (Aragorn) taking hold of the one ring? Why would he be afraid? Tho Tolkien does contradict himself at times.


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## Ingwë (May 28, 2005)

Greenwood, 

I tried to say that Ar-Pharazon can overthow Sauron but Sauron will endure while the One Ring exists. Therefore Sauron will be the Dark lord in Ar-Pharazon's body. I mean Sauron himself will rule in Ar's body if Sauron is overthown, Because Ar-Pharazon cannot control the Ring. The Ring will control the Númenorean king.


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## Greenwood (May 28, 2005)

Thorondor said:


> If what you say is true, and it does make sense, what would be your explanation of Gandalf words, that Sauron would fear a numenorean king (Aragorn) taking hold of the one ring? Why would he be afraid? Tho Tolkien does contradict himself at times.


It has taken Sauron about 3,000 years to recover from his last brush with the survivors of Numenor. Now, when he thinks everything is going his way some pesky heir of Elendil appears to mess things up, possibly wearing his Ring or being aided by one of the Wise using the Ring? Of course Sauron would be worried. And as long as someone like Aragorn had the Ring, Sauron must worry that it could come into the hands of Gandalf or Elrond or Galadriel, etc.; someone with the inherent power to truly supplant him if they had the time to learn how to fully use the Ring.


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## Ingwë (May 29, 2005)

I like this thoughts, Greenwood. But as I previously mentioned, I think that as mortal can use the Ring. What do you think about Frodo? He saw Galadriel's Ring? She said his sight became keener. He used the ring to become invisible, no all its powers but it use it. 

Good debate, isn't it, Greenwood?


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## Aiglos (May 30, 2005)

I don't think anyone but the Wise can contest the will of the Ring, and they are all *mortally* afraid of it...!!!!

This is a device of a Maia gone bad. Sauron put all of his might and malice into it. It is OF Sauron, a part of him. It cannot be controlled by another. It's destruction is HIS destruction. It is PART of Sauron.

Pharazon with the Ring is like Angmar with the Ring. Only Angmar didn't have anywhere near as powerful an army as Pharazon, at ANY point.


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## Ingwë (May 30, 2005)

Aiglos, tell me why do you think so? As I previously mentioned the One Ring controls the other Rings, also the Nine Rings. 

We must discuss if Ar-Pharazon may overthrow Sauron.
If Ar cannot do anything there is nothing to discuss
If he can, then we must say what would happen with the King
Then we must discuss what Sauron will do after his distruction, because he will survive while the Ring is there
That's enough.


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## Aiglos (May 30, 2005)

No backup apart from my memory here. I'm too lazy to look through all the potential quote material! Apologies. Too tired.

 


But here's my ha'penny worth:


Ar Pharazon cannot destroy Sauron whether Ar has the ring or not. Sauron is a Maia. Even the armies of the Alliance were swept aside. Even the Elven High King who wielded me, and he wore one of The Three.....  
Ar Pharazon with the One Ring for any length of time would be turned. I don't think he will become more powerful than any of "The Wise" including Sauron, but he will turn to the same dark ways, including eventually wasting away and becoming a wraith (this was said to be the ultimate fate of all mortals who would wield it, including Frodo - if he'd kept it). However, Sauron would eventually have to take back the One Ring from Ar by force. Until that point it is likely they would work to the same ends (as in fact they did, although Ar was blinded by greed and did not know it).
In other words, I don't think any mortal could stand the power of the Ring long enough to be able to become powerful in its use. Nor do I think any mortal would have the "skill" to use it as one of "The Wise" would.
I think if Pharazon, Aragorn, Elendil, Beren, Turin, Frodo or any mortal ever mentioned anywhere by Tolkien at any point, no matter how good-willed, strong and wise, took that Ring, it would waste them, stretching their lives until they were as thin as paste, and leaving nothing but a shadow....

(how's that for drama....!?)


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## Maerbenn (May 30, 2005)

Aiglos said:


> he [Gil-galad] wore one of the Three...


From the published _Silmarillion_; ‘Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age’:


> ... while he [Sauron] wore the One Ring he could perceive all the things that were done by means of the lesser rings, and he could see and govern the very thoughts of those that wore them.
> But the Elves were not so lightly to be caught. As soon as Sauron set the One Ring upon his finger they were aware of him; and they knew him, and perceived that he would be master of them, and of all that they wrought. Then in anger and fear they took off their rings.


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## Aiglos (May 31, 2005)

Good point Maerbenn!!!!

But then, after the Alliance, all of the Three were worn again (albeit by different people in certain cases).

I wonder where the Three were kept during the years between the fall of Nogrod and the War of The Last Alliance...?


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## Ingwë (May 31, 2005)

Aiglos said:


> No backup apart from my memory here. I'm too lazy to look through all the potential quote material! Apologies. Too tired.
> But here's my ha'penny worth:
> 
> 
> Ar Pharazon cannot destroy Sauron whether Ar has the ring or not.




Sorry. I meant overthrow. I edited my post. 

Btw what do you mean?



> I wonder where the Three were kept during the years between the fall of Nogrod and the War of The Last Alliance...?


They were kept in Gil-Galad, Cirdan and Galadriel. Gil gave his Ring to Elrond and Cirdan gave his one to Gandalf wheh the Wizzard came in Me. 

But let wi stop with the offtopic. Aiglos, why don't you try to find a thread about the Keepers? Then we can post there.


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## Aiglos (May 31, 2005)

Overthrow?

He could certainly have done a good job....!

He had the army enough to flatten Sauron's forces for good.

I agree this could happen, with the Ring in Ar's possession. I still think Sauron would have defeated Ar or made him his servant in the end.

In fact, given that Sauron was immortal, he could have just waited till Pharazon died....


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## Ingwë (Jun 1, 2005)

I think Ar may overthrow Sauron but the One Ring cannot be controled by anyone save the Dark lord. And Sauron's spirit will survive while the Ring is in Arda. The Sauron will control the King


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## Tar-Elendil13 (Jun 24, 2005)

Ar-Pharazon getting the ring would be scary. I think there would be an assassination attempt.


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## Thorondor_ (Jun 24, 2005)

Tar-Elendil13 said:


> Ar-Pharazon getting the ring would be scary. I think there would be an assassination attempt.


What do you mean?


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