# Bringing the fight to Morgoth.



## Arvedui (Aug 30, 2004)

This thread comes as a result of a question brought up by Ithrynluin in the thread "I am of the house of... 
Without Fëanor, would the Noldor have stayed in Valinor, or would they/some of them eventually have returned to Middle-earth?

And if they would have stayed in Valinor, what would the Valar eventually have done with Morgoth? The coming of Men were just about to happen. Would Manwë have left Morgoth to corrupt Men uninterrupted?


----------



## Confusticated (Aug 30, 2004)

Even though I think the options are nearly endless and there is no way of knowing, I'll toss out one idea.

The people of Eldamar where close in kinship and friendship with the Teleri who became the Sindar. I think that the Valar might have some part in them eventually going to the aid of these elves, and in doing so they would also end up aiding men.

Of course this is just a generic answer without knowing the events that happened which caused Mekor to leave Aman for Middle-earth but not cause the Noldor to follow him.

I do not believe Manwe would have left Men to be destroyed by Morgoth.


----------



## Turgon (Aug 30, 2004)

My main question regarding this scenario would be just how Morgoth would react upon his release from Mandos. Without Fëanor, the Noldor and indeed the whole of Valiinor would be a much diminished place. Morgoth would of course be missing his greatest enemy and his greatest tool - just how much did Fëanor's genius spur on the wicked genius of Melkor? And of course without Fëanor we are lacking Morgoth's principle motive for returning to his wicked old ways in the first place. Gah... being something of a Venturer myself I hate to say this... but Fëanor is such an important figure in the history of Arda I just don't think things would have worked out without him. The guy burned so brightly that sometimes I wonder if that wasn't the place that Iluvatar stashed the Flame Imperishable.

But I think Maikanare's idea sounds completely possible - that is if Melkor had fallen back into darkness and sought out his old dwellings in Middle-earth. Did I just say If?!?  In fact had the Noldor waited for the Valar to spur themselves into action following the Rape of the Silmarils, I think this is pretty much the way things would have turned out. I don't think the Noldor would allow the Valar to sit by and allow Melkor to run riot over their old Sindar friends back in Middle-earth - nor the Teleri in Aman for that matter. In fact if Fëanor had been in the least bit politic in his dealing with the Teleri and pointed out the danger their Sindar brothers were facing with Morgoth now loose in Beleriand - he could have gotten himself a not only a navy to ferry him to Middle-earth - but another army to aid in the crushing and slashing and stomping and stuff.

Sorry for the rambling nature of this post - but as Nóm said - there are so many options here it's hard not to get lost in them.


----------



## Confusticated (Aug 30, 2004)

Turgon said:


> My main question regarding this scenario would be just how Morgoth would react upon his release from Mandos. Without Fëanor, the Noldor and indeed the whole of Valiinor would be a much diminished place. Morgoth would of course be missing his greatest enemy and his greatest tool - just how much did Fëanor's genius spur on the wicked genius of Melkor? And of course without Fëanor we are lacking Morgoth's principle motive for returning to his wicked old ways in the first place. Gah... being something of a Venturer myself I hate to say this... but Fëanor is such an important figure in the history of Arda I just don't think things would have worked out without him. The guy burned so brightly that sometimes I wonder if that wasn't the place that Iluvatar stashed the Flame Imperishable.



I was wondering similar things myself. The first thing to come to mind is that perhaps the two Trees would play a role similar to the role Feanor's simarils played. But would the destruction of the Trees be enough revenge for Melkor? I doubt it, it would only serve to keep his enemies together in their grief, sorrow and common enemy. I think he would have planted some seeds or another, and I can't imagine they wouldn't be seeds ment to turn the people of Valinor against eachother. The way I see it, when Melkor was allowed to go free in in Aman, unrest among the elves was doomed to happen.


----------



## Turgon (Aug 30, 2004)

You're right about the Two Trees I think - an nice encore to the destruction of the Pillars. Yet without the imperative of Finwë's death and the Theft of the Jewels, I can't see the Noldor following after Melkor either. Which again leads me to think that the Valar would take full control of the situation - and going back to Ithryn's original question, it is quite possible that some of the more restless elements of Noldor society may have decided to stay in Middle-earth after the destruction of Melkor's armies. Assuming that is things work out in this manner. It would be fitting echo, I think, of how things turned out in The Silmarillion.


----------



## Inderjit S (Aug 30, 2004)

I am working with the scenario that Fëanor remained with his father at Formenos and was killed there-with all of the events transpiring as they did. It is possible that the Fëanorians would have wanted revenge, led by the sons of Fëanor-but they lacked the importance and eloquence of their great father. Therefore their words wouldn't have carried much weight. They may have gone to Middle-Earth-but to what purpose. The sense of revenge would still have existed for many of the Noldor-especially the leaders, like Fingolfin, and Finarfin's sons, who went to avenge the death of Finwë, not to recover the Silmarils, or, rather, their main purpose was the avenge Finwë's death. But Fëanor, with his speech, was the one who instilled the anti-Valarin feeling within the Elves, and the one who convinced them to leave. If it wasn't for him then it is likely that they would have turned to the Valar for advice.



> In fact if Fëanor had been in the least bit politic



I think Fëanor was politic-he just didn't think the Teleri worthy of his talent, except, perhaps, for his sword-fighting and boat stealing talents.



> I was wondering similar things myself. The first thing to come to mind is that perhaps the two Trees would play a role similar to the role Feanor's simarils played. But would the destruction of the Trees be enough revenge for Melkor? I doubt it, it would only serve to keep his enemies together in their grief, sorrow and common enemy. I think he would have planted some seeds or another, and I can't imagine they wouldn't be seeds ment to turn the people of Valinor against eachother. The way I see it, when Melkor was allowed to go free in in Aman, unrest among the elves was doomed to happen.



Melkor JUST destroying the Two Trees takes away the personal touch, and thus removes the impetus for the Noldor to rebel. This was, as you state, everyone’s battle.

Generally speaking, removing Fëanor from the legendarium is to disastrous to comprehend-he was the most important incarnate ever.


----------



## Turgon (Aug 30, 2004)

Yes, Fëanor's sword-fighting and boat-stealing talents were without equal, and yes Fëanor *was* politic, once, sadly when the time came for him to prove his worth, the later went straight out of the window. Fëanor made the same mistake with the Teleri that he made when he abandoned Fingolfin's host in Araman. His failure to realise that without allies he was dooming himself, his sons, his cause, and all those who still stood by him to certain death in Beleriand. For a fellow with such a Machiavellian turn of mind - this is an unforgivable error. I think it's fair to say that at the time of the Kinslaying there were creatures dwelling in the as yet unplumbed depths of the _Belegaer_ with more politcal nous than the fiery one.


----------



## Ithrynluin (Aug 30, 2004)

Inderjit S said:


> Generally speaking, removing Fëanor from the legendarium is to disastrous to comprehend



Shouldn't that read: "...removing Fëanor from the legendarium is _removing too much disaster_ to comprehend..." 

I think that, had there been no Fëanor (and I don't mean 'had he not existed at all' but a scenario such as Inder proposes for example - that Fëanor was slain alongside his father in Formenos), the rebellion would have been much different. Probably we couldn't even call it 'rebellion', as I think the Valar would act on everything that had happened so far and organize some sort of 'War of Wrath' centuries sooner than was otherwise in store.

If not, I think the Noldor would still have gone to Middle-Earth, Fëanor or not, probably without the support of the Valar, but also without any bloodshed with their own kin...


----------



## Arvedui (Aug 30, 2004)

If we start with Inder's scenario (which IMO would be the most plausible with this case), a crucial point would have been different: 
None would have said "No!" to Yavanna's request for "but a little of that light..."
The way I see it, things would then have been a little different. I think that in fact the Valar would have aided the Noldor,and perhaps the other kinds as well. Maybe even taking the role of Fëanor and urging them on?


----------



## Ithrynluin (Aug 30, 2004)

Which brings us to the enlightening conclusion that had Fëanor kicked the bucket sooner than he actually did, life in the Little Kingdom would have followed a much more preferable course (not for Melkor, though). 

*rubs all this into Fëanor's fan's noses*


----------



## Inderjit S (Aug 30, 2004)

> Yes, Fëanor's sword-fighting and boat-stealing talents were without equal, and yes Fëanor was politic, once, sadly when the time came for him to prove his worth, the later went straight out of the window.



Along with his dignity and humility...wait he never had any of those beforehand. So he didn't lose much, but the skills he gained were without superlatives-how to slay Teleri, how to milk a goat, how to steal ships and how to act like a petulant, though super cool prat (though he had the latter skill beforehand) were all skills which Fëanor gained-and can one find a price for such amazing skills-his bellicose nature was made even more aggressive. It seems that Fëanor was from the Akhilleus school of arrogance and general behaviour.



> His failure to realise that without allies he was dooming himself, his sons, his cause, and all those who still stood by him to certain death in Beleriand.



He would tell you to tell somebody who cares, and most likely would drive his sword through your gullet and claim that you were questioning his unquestionable infallibility.



> Shouldn't that read: "...removing Fëanor from the legendarium is removing too much disaster to comprehend..."



From great evil beauty must always arise. I am looking for that super-cool quote from Goethe's Faust which deals with such a situation but I cannot find it. Never mind.

Arda would have been a hell of a boring place. And there is some point when you should know that it is time for you to go on a suicide mission, rather then let the god's sort out your mess, again. It is better to die trying then to not die at all. Or something like that. Plus-no Beren and Lúthien, no Húrin, no Númenór----in fact no nothing without Fëanor. Take away Fëanor and you take away all that you know of Middle-Earth. The scenario would have been "Valar kill Morgoth, end of story"-I mean come on, Eru wouldn't have wanted that! It would have screwed up his whole grand plan and stuff. And as Diomedes would point out do not mess with the god for they will royally screw you.



> Which brings us to the enlightening conclusion that had Fëanor kicked the bucket sooner than he actually did, life in the Little Kingdom would have followed a much more preferable course (not for Melkor, though).



Also note that the Noldor were disgruntled. Ever the Vanyar attest to this-or the fact that they were slightly unhappy at Valinor. They of course came crawling, or in the cases of some, flying back. Though they needed to experience the outside world where Eru had put them-why do you think he put them there, and why do you think there was a latent desire amongst the Noldor to seek elsewither. Also, when you say not preferable for Melkor, you forget to add not preferable for the readers either-and a lot of great people from Middle-Earth.

There as a lot of heartache, too much-but there were enough great and brave deeds, from Beren's defiance to Sam's loyalty, which counteract that.


----------



## Ithrynluin (Aug 30, 2004)

> From great evil beauty must always arise.



That is true in general, yet not very true in this case. What beauty came of the Kinslaying at Alqualondë, or of the abandonment of Fingolfin's host, some of whom later perished at the Helcaraxë? Both these events came as a direct consequnce of Fëanor's (misguided) deeds, and both brought not beauty mingled with grief but - at best - grief mingled with a smidge beauty.



> Arda would have been a hell of a boring place.





> in fact no nothing without Fëanor.



Why must this trite the-world-revolves-around-Fëanor argument surface again and again as support of Fëanor's deeds?? Besides, we are not discussing a scenario where Fëanor had never existed, but one where things went _differently_, to put it simply. The other Noldor were quite capable of getting themselves in more trouble than they could handle (i.e. going to Middle-Earth and vying for victory in a pointless war against the Dark Lord, all of which could have happened if Fëanor had, oh I don't know let's say - died), without Fëanor's 'aid', and most probably not committing despicable acts like the Kinslaying along the way.


----------



## Walter (Aug 30, 2004)

> From great evil beauty must always arise. I am looking for that super-cool quote from Goethe's Faust which deals with such a situation but I cannot find it. Never mind.



This one (the emphasized part)?



> Faust. What is your name?
> Mephistopheles. The question seems but cheap
> From one who for the Word has such contempt,
> Who from all outward show is quite exempt
> ...


----------



## Inderjit S (Aug 30, 2004)

> That is true in general, yet not very true in this case. What beauty came of the Kinslaying at Alqualondë, or of the abandonment of Fingolfin's host, some of whom later perished at the Helcaraxë? Both these events came as a direct consequnce of Fëanor's (misguided) deeds, and both brought not beauty mingled with grief but - at best - grief mingled with a smidge beauty.



The beauty of Ñoldorin ostracism...well, for a century or two. What I am saying is that eventually beauty reared its ugly head out of the whole saga. I do not think I mentioned specifics-just in general, there were a lot of evil deeds and bad things in the scenario-but there were a lot of beautiful deeds which would not have come into existence if not for the horrible ones. Without the kinslaying and the leaving of the weak-willed idiots (or that is what Fëanor would call them) at Aman then perhaps things would not have happened as they did. 



> The other Noldor were quite capable of getting themselves in more trouble than they could handle (i.e. going to Middle-Earth and vying for victory in a pointless war against the Dark Lord, all of which could have happened if Fëanor had, oh I don't know let's say - died), without Fëanor's 'aid', and most probably not committing despicable acts like the Kinslaying along the way.



Oh they were indeed perfectly capable-but Fëanor instigated this desire. And dost thou dare question Fëanor's aid? Fëanor's aid is perhaps the single greatest gift you could receive, except for perhaps Fëanor's slap, Fëanor's Silmarils, Fëanor's discourse on languages and milking she-goats, Fëanor’s revolving polka dot bow-tie, Fëanor's autograph, Fëanor's hair (Eh? Galadriel had the most beautiful hair? She offered me her hair thrice and I said "No, girlfriend! I do not want you hair!" and, of course Fëanor's kick in the shin.


----------



## Inderjit S (Aug 30, 2004)

> Part of that Power which would



Thank you Walter!

It is indeed;



> Part of that Power which would
> The Evil ever do, and ever does the Good.



And thank you for quoting the great _Goethe_ who even that manic depressant _Schopenhauer liked_ and was also the object of Oskar's, the midget with the glass-splitting voice, affection. But then again, so was Rasputin.


----------



## Walter (Aug 30, 2004)

You're welcome...

Dr. Faustus and Rasputin, they are not that far apart, are they? 

Or Akhilleus and Ilmarinen...

Oh and one remark "on topic": No Fëanor, no Silmarillion, It's that simple, really... (IMHO only, that is!)


----------



## Ithrynluin (Aug 30, 2004)

Walter said:


> Oh and one remark "on topic": No Fëanor, no Silmarillion, It's that simple, really...



That's right, Walter! And if that were the topic of this thread, there wouldn't be much to discuss, would there?  



Inderjit S said:


> Oh they were indeed perfectly capable-but Fëanor instigated this desire.



Yes, Fëanor did provoke this desire, but it was Morgoth who _originated it_ by slaying Finwë, destroying the Two Trees...The leaders of the Noldor might have taken longer to decide what to do, but I believe the death of Finwë hit them hard enough that they would have departed for Middle-Earth even against the advice of the Valar.

But regardless whether_ Fëanor _would have died at Formenos or not, his sons would have remained. Would they have been able to replace their father in the role that he had to play?


----------



## Confusticated (Aug 30, 2004)

Ithrynluin said:


> But regardless whether would have died at Formenos or not, his sons would have remained. Would they have been able to replace their father in the role that he had to play?


Curufin and Celegorm turned the realm of Nargothrond against its King, Finrod at that. I think they could move the Noldor out of Tirion.

But then I'm not sure it would be necessary. I don't think the Valar would council the elves to stay in Aman in this case. I do not think the Noldor would be without reason to return.


----------



## Inderjit S (Aug 30, 2004)

> Dr. Faustus and Rasputin, they are not that far apart, are they?



Indeed they are-but personally I liked Marlowe's Dr. Faustus better then Goethe, for some reason. Though both Goethe's and Marlowe's Dr.Faustus were superior to Thomas Mann's dreadfully boring Dr. Faustus, Adrian Leverkuhn. 



> Yes, Fëanor did provoke this desire, but it was Morgoth who originated it by slaying Finwë, destroying the Two Trees



But it was Fëanor who originated this by threatening his brother and creating the Silmarils-as well as leaving them at home. But then again Melkor created the whole sword-to-da-breat incident.



> But regardless whether would have died at Formenos or not, his sons would have remained. Would they have been able to replace their father in the role that he had to play?



Maybe. I doubt they had the strength in will and respect of Fëanor or Fingolfin. And I don't think Fëanor's sons were as bad as their father, or even the ones that were would have been kept in check by Maedhros. Plus there was no oath to make them act crazy. I do not think that any of the brothers had the strength of will to rebel against Maedhros-and even if they did, they would be suitably alienated, and Maedhros would not sanction half the things Fëanor did.


----------



## Walter (Aug 30, 2004)

Ithrynluin said:


> That's right, Walter! And if that were the topic of this thread, there wouldn't be much to discuss, would there?


Oh, I beg to differ...

One could, for example muse about what Tolkien's legendarium might look like today, or if it would have been published at all, if "things" had taken a different course in chapter V of BoLT I. Until then the legendarium so far could - for example - be regarded as "yet another Edda", Melko's chaining could be considered a parallel to the chaining of Loki and the development of the Elves be seen as sort of "explanation" for the distinction in Light Elves and Dark Elves in Northern myths and folk-tales, the latter somehow related to - or identical with - Dwarves.

But with the introduction of Fëanor and the Silmarilli (on p. 128) bathed in the radiant dew (an allusion to _Éarendil_?) of Silpion and filled with _"but a single tiny drop of the light of Laurelin"_, Tolkien's legendarium - all of a sudden, I am tempted to say - takes a very different course from thereon.

One could also muse what caused Tolkien's to conceive Fëanor and the Silmarilli, or which role - if one at all - Ilmarinen and the Sampo played therein or what the general role of either was, regarding the influence of evil in a "sub-created" world...

And all these things too would - IMHO - be not only worthwile to discuss, but also - again IMHO - quite "on topic" regarding Arvedui's question in the first post. 

The same topic, just a different point of view, my dear wizards...


----------



## Arvedui (Aug 31, 2004)

Well, I'm not a wizard, just a lousy soaked, drowned ex-king of a forgotten land to the north. But I kind of agree with Walter, and I think that Inder has also touched this: Without Fëanor, the whole legendarium probably wouldn't have been much different from other legends.


> One could also muse what caused Tolkien's to conceive Fëanor and the Silmarilli, or which role - if one at all - Ilmarinen and the Sampo played therein or what the general role of either was, regarding the influence of evil in a "sub-created" world...


I think that to try to find an answer to this, we would have to try and take a look at it "backwards." What was it that Tolkien tried to accomplish when writing _The Book of Lost Tales?_ IMO, mainly trying to create a link between the Creation, and the world of 1917 - 1973 (quite a span, eh).

In the beginning, Tolkien's Arda was flat, right?
So he had to come up with a tale that could explain why the once flat, one-continented Arda, became round and the lands divided in many continents. He had to come up with a reason that could explain why the Gods had to use so much brute force that it sundered a whole planet. And also, along the way, bring in Atlantis.

This could be explained by giving Morgoth enough time to establish a stronghold that was so well defended that nothing short of the Power of the Gods could uproot it. And Fëanor's rebelliion was just the thing to anger the Valar enough to refrain from interfering in the happenings in Middle-earth, until the Children of Ilúvatar (represented by Eärendil, who was of both Maia, Eldar and Atani ancestors) pleaded for help.

Along the way, he brought in his Catholic upbringing when he used Morgoth's desire to rule Arda to explain why the world is infested with Evil.

Last of all to the Silmarilli. I think the inspiration for this lies with the phrase


> Éala Éarendel engla beorthast.


 Maybe I should have taken the time to find the rest of this and where it came from but I guess I am too lazy, and besides Inder, ithy or Walter will surely give the right quote anyway.  Maybe I can beat them to it later...
Tolkien has once explained how this line struck him, and my guess is that this was what inspired him to start working on the legendarium he felt that England needed.


...or I could just be rambling in the wrong direction...


----------



## Walter (Aug 31, 2004)

Arvedui said:


> > Éala Éarendel engla beorthast.
> 
> 
> Last of all to the Silmarilli. I think the inspiration for this lies with the phrase Maybe I should have taken the time to find the rest of this and where it came from but I guess I am too lazy, and besides Inder, ithy or Walter will surely give the right quote anyway.  Maybe I can beat them to it later...


The line is from the Middle-English poem _Crist_ and Tolkien was convinced that Éarendel was not just a common noun meaning 'ray of light', or 'radiance' - as commonly assumed - but rather a proper name, and this was what sparked his fantasy and eventually led to Eärendil, the mariner, who ended up sailing the heavens as the evening-star (cf. http://www.thetolkienwiki.org/wiki.cgi?Mythology/Éarendel ).


----------



## Arvedui (Aug 31, 2004)

Well, what did I say?


----------



## Confusticated (Sep 20, 2004)

Ithrynluin said:


> That is true in general, yet not very true in this case. What beauty came of the Kinslaying at Alqualondë, or of the abandonment of Fingolfin's host, some of whom later perished at the Helcaraxë? Both these events came as a direct consequnce of Fëanor's (misguided) deeds, and both brought not beauty mingled with grief but - at best - grief mingled with a smidge beauty.



As for why I came here, I can only say I was searching for cliches and I stumbled on this post . 

(That is not to say there were cliches in it.)


I don't know what you have in mind for a smidge, but maybe the smidge is felt more keen from the grief? And this would be needed even more as years go by and people grow weary, and the feelings are dulled down a little... you are tired of things and you've heard it all before and you want something new and surprising, not just to wonder at but to pierce your heart because it is a sensation at least. To be up front when everything else has worked into a blur, to stimulate and envigorate the burned-out hearts of would-be zombies.


----------

