# Magic in LOTR



## Gilthoniel (Mar 10, 2005)

In your opinion, is there magic in LOTR, or in fact ME? In my opinion, there are only powers, which those such as the Valar possess, and have passed onto The Istari, and Melkor, Sauron etc. There is no actual magic. 
This is open to debate, and could make a good poll, but as yet I am undecided wether to include one. Perhaps we can ask the mods later.
Post away!


----------



## Hammersmith (Mar 10, 2005)

I think this question is easiest answered by an elf in Lorien. I don't have the precise quote, but if I recall correctly he says something along the lines of "You seem to use the same word to describe our powers and the trickeries of the enemy.", answering Sam's pleas to see some "elf magic"

I would say that like all else, Sauron and Morgoth used no "magic", but only perversions of the powers originally distributed by Eru.


----------



## GuardianRanger (Mar 10, 2005)

Hammersmith said:


> I think this question is easiest answered by an elf in Lorien. I don't have the precise quote, but if I recall correctly he says something along the lines of "You seem to use the same word to describe our powers and the trickeries of the enemy.", answering Sam's pleas to see some "elf magic"



I think the quote you may be looking for is:



> "Are these magic cloaks," asked Pippen, looking at them with wonder.
> 
> `I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves. `They are fair garments, and the web is good, for it was made in this land. They are elvish robes certainly, if that is what you mean. Leaf and branch, water and stone: they have the hue and beauty of all these things under the twilight of Lórien that we love; for we put the thought of all that we love into all that we make. Yet they are garments, not armour, and they will not turn shaft or blade. But they should serve you well: they are light to wear, and warm enough or cool enough at need. And you will find them a great aid in keeping out of the sight of unfriendly eyes, whether you walk among the stones or the trees. You are indeed high in the favour of the Lady! For she herself and her maidens wove this stuff; and never before have we clad strangers in the garb of our own people.'



Another one might be:


> 'I have indeed! ' said Sam. 'And I reckon there's Elves and Elves. They're all elvish enough, but they're not all the same. Now these folk aren't wanderers or homeless, and seem a bit nearer to the likes of us: they seem to belong here, more even than Hobbits do in the Shire. Whether they've made the land, or the land's made them, it's hard to say, if you take my meaning. It's wonderfully quiet here. Nothing seems to be going on, and nobody seems to want it to. If there's any magic about, it's right down deep, where I can't lay my hands on it, in a manner of speaking.'


----------



## Barliman Butterbur (Mar 10, 2005)

Gilthoniel said:


> In your opinion, is there magic in LOTR, or in fact ME? In my opinion, there are only powers, which those such as the Valar possess, and have passed onto The Istari, and Melkor, Sauron etc. There is no actual magic.
> This is open to debate, and could make a good poll, but as yet I am undecided wether to include one. Perhaps we can ask the mods later.
> Post away!



You're going to need to define your terms before this gets much farther. What do you mean by "magic" and by "powers"? I think that various people possessed certain _abilities,_ whether learned or natural, but we still need to get the terms defined.

Barley


----------



## Hammersmith (Mar 10, 2005)

@GuardianRanger: Possibly the first one, though I recall the (near enough exact) quote "You seem to mistake *something-our powers or a synonymous abstract* for the deceptions of the enemy", said by an elf.


----------



## Greenwood (Mar 10, 2005)

I believe the quote you are looking for his Galadriel to Sam when he asks about her mirror: "And you?" she said, turning to Sam. "For this is what your folk would call magic, I believe, though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy. But this, if you will, is the magic of Galadriel. Did you not say that you wished to see Elf-magic?"

I agree with Barley that you are going to have to define your terms. I would define "powers" that are beyond what we find in the real world as "magic", though those "powers" might be normal and considered unmagical in Middle Earth. Thus Elrond calling up a flood at the Fords and Gandalf making the waves look like galloping horses, I would call magic, though Elrond and Gandalf might just consider it using their powers.


----------



## Gilthoniel (Mar 11, 2005)

Well the two terms are almost synonymous, however there are subtle differences: 
I view magic as being more to do with trickery, yet real. If that makes any sense at all. the same sort of thing as the 'magic' that is performed in todays world, by 'magicians', yet more real, and put to use. Whereas in my opinion powers are more like the magic in religion such as Wicca. (If I am offending anyone by reffering to it I am very sorry). Calling on a more advanced being to give the ability to perform the desired deed. 

If your want a more detailed, and possibly clear description PM me. I'll try and find something to use as a better description.


----------



## Hammersmith (Mar 11, 2005)

Thanks, Greenwood! That's the one. I don't have a copy to hand, and I'm not too good at isolating fifty words out of 600,000 anyway.


----------



## Greenwood (Mar 11, 2005)

Gilthoniel,

From the Random House Webster's Dictionary: magic -- 1. the art of producing illusions, as by sleight of hand. 2. the practice of using various techniques, as incantation, to exert control over the supernatural or the forces of nature.

Thus defintion 1 fits your view of magic, while definition 2 describes the magic in LOTR.


Hammersmith,

Just wait until you have read a book 20 to 30 or more times and you will find you have little trouble locating specific passages.


----------



## Gilthoniel (Mar 15, 2005)

Can't really argue with the OED, or whatever dictionary you chose. Besides, I now take some of my contraversial statement back, as I have just reread the Hobbit, and Gandalf definatley does use magic, several times, in the aforementioned book.Soo, guess I'v kinda answered my own question, although it was more of an opinion poll kinda thing.


----------



## Alcuin (Mar 15, 2005)

Is there magic in Middle-Earth? GuardianRanger quoted the leader of the elves who gave the elf-cloaks to the party, who answered it well: “I do not know what you mean by that.” And Greenwood quotes Galadriel: “For this is what your folk would call magic, I believe, though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy.”

What would be magic in Middle-Earth? Everything in Middle-Earth is magic: that’s how the inhabitants believed their world was put together. The Ainur sang, Eru said “Eä!” the Valar and Maiar descended into and fashioned the world, the Elves awoke, and Men awoke. There’s no evolution, no plate tectonics, no planetary accretion; no star formation, no galactic neighborhood. Arda is flat, like a bowl: it looks like the Norse or Greek concept of the world, with the Great Sea surrounded by land, and the Encircling Sea on the outside. Only when Númenor rebels does the world become round, and that, too, it is a “magic” event, with Valinor and Tol Eressëa removed to the Straight Road, although the Istari came from the Straight Road, and the elves go to Tol Eressëa by traveling it.

This is a completely different frame of reference from the real world. Everything is magic. The sun comes up in the morning, that’s magic: that’s Arien the Maia guiding the last fruit of Laurelin the Golden in a vessel made by Aulë; people call her Anar, the Sun, and although she moves from east to west, she used to move from west to east. Aragorn gently rebuked the Rohirrim lieutenant on the downs near the Wold: “The green earth, say you? That is a might matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day!”

Magic is how everything is put together and kept together, it’s how everything works. The Eldar have a tremendous understanding of how the world works because they were in Valinor in the Light of the Trees, and the Valar and Maiar who assembled all the stuff of Arda explained it to them in detail. The Grey Elves had Melian the Maia and long ages of life to study and learn how the world worked; these were the teachers of Men, who had little time to learn anything in detail. Then the Noldor returned with new knowledge – and new dangers. They died. Knowledge was lost forever to Middle-Earth.

Men went to Númenor. The Eldar came from Tol Eressëa. They taught them things that had been forgotten in Middle-Earth, and things never known in Middle-Earth. The Númenóreans grew rich and powerful; they rebelled; Númenor fell; and the Dúnedain fleeing from its ruin established Arnor and Gondor. 

But Arnor failed and Gondor was dwindling. The Elves were leaving Middle-Earth. As Galadriel sadly described the situation, “We must depart into the West, or dwindle to a rustic folk of dell and cave, slowly to forget, and to be forgotten.” 

Middle-Earth was not advancing: it was decaying, it was forgetting. That was the lure of the Rings of Power: they stayed that decay, but at terrible price: to the Elves, to the Men who were ensnared by them, to the Dwarves. 

What the Men of Middle-Earth called “magic” was knowledge to the Elves, knowledge of how the world worked and how to manipulate it. The Elves were fading all the time, slowly in some places, faster in others. They were dying, too, and leaving Middle-Earth; and they were leaving by choice to stop the fading. The Númenóreans were fewer and fewer, and their memories and lore were waning; Aragorn was special because he was brought up in the House of Elrond, the Loremaster who remembered even the First Age of the world and the Fall of Thangorodrim. 

What did Galadriel say? “[T]his is what your folk would call magic, … though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy.” It was clear to _her_: she understood. But it was not possible to even begin explaining it to the halflings. 

Consider a real-world example. Trot over to a university and go sit in on a doctoral thesis in some arcane subject: derivatives and financial engineering is good, or string theory and the demise of black holes, or the physical chemistry of electron transfer in membranes. Be sure to get one that’s heavy into full mathematical explanation in excruciating detail. The Elves had the corresponding knowledge for Arda, but the ones who knew it were forgetting, leaving, dying, and failing to pass it on.

It wasn’t “magic” to Galadriel and the Elves. It was how things worked. Sauron used the same rules, but he abused them to get bad outcomes: he was evil. And the Elves rightly said, _We don’t do that kind of stuff. It isn’t the same as what we do._ Same world, same rules, different goals, and different outcomes. When Sam saw the elven rope in the boat, he was excited, and the elves said, “Had we known that this craft delighted you, we could have taught you much.” But it was too late: Sam never learned the secrets of making _hithlain_ rope, the elves of Lórien eventually left Middle-Earth, and their knowledge of ropemaking was lost forever.

Sam didn’t get it in Lórien. Frodo, because of his bearing the Ring for so long, might have a pretty good idea of what was going on, but he was no master like Fëanor or Galadriel or Celebrimbor or even Aragorn. 

The Rings will be lost, and the Elves will fade and forget; or else Sauron will retake the One Ring, and the Elves will be enslaved. All outcomes are fraught with sorrow for the Elves. They don’t want to live in the brutal, primitive world of men; neither do they want to live in the brutal, horrific world Sauron would devise. So they leave Middle-Earth. Only the most stubborn – and the bravest – stay to fight the long defeat until Sauron is thrown down and the Age of Men begins.

And what Sam called Magic was Gone with the Elves.


----------



## Ingwë (Mar 16, 2005)

There is a magic in LotR. What do you think about Anduin. 

*"The Counsil of Elrond"*
In this chapte somebody(may be Elrond) told Boromir that there is powers that he doesn`t know. Some are older that the Nazguls and they afraid to pass the river. 

Elf-cloaks too.


----------



## Ingwë (Mar 19, 2005)

I found that quote:



> `May the day not be too long delayed.` said Boromir. `For I though I do not ask for help, we need it. It would be comfort us that others fought also with all means that they have.`
> `Then be comforted` said Elrond. `*For there are other powers and realms that you know not, and they are hidden from you. Anduin the Great flows pass many shores, ere it comes to Argonath and the Gates of Gondor.`*


----------



## Alcuin (Mar 19, 2005)

Hm. That’s interesting I always thought Elrond was talking about the “countries” along the Anduin: the Beornings, the Men of the Vales of Anduin (of whom the Eorlingas or Rohirrim had once been a part), and especially Lórien. Lórien was in fact a “hidden kingdom” much as Doriath had been the Hidden Kingdom in the First Age. (Hence Eomer’s surprise that Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli had passed through Lórien: people did not go there, and if they did, they often did not come out or came out profoundly changed, as Boromir was also aware and feared.)

All of these people – Beornings, the Men of the Vales of Anduin, and Lórien – were important allies for Gondor, as the Kings and Stewards of the past had known. Boromir conveniently chose to forget about them at the Council, and Elrond seems to be politely but firmly reminding him of it.

Do you believe that Anduin was magic?


----------



## OldTomBombadil (Mar 19, 2005)

Alcuin said:


> Consider a real-world example. Trot over to a university and go sit in on a doctoral thesis in some arcane subject: derivatives and financial engineering is good, or string theory and the demise of black holes, or the physical chemistry of electron transfer in membranes. Be sure to get one that’s heavy into full mathematical explanation in excruciating detail. The Elves had the corresponding knowledge for Arda, but the ones who knew it were forgetting, leaving, dying, and failing to pass it on.


That's an excellent analogy, Alcuin. I'm sure that many of today's technology would have been considered "magic" by the less technologically advanced cultures of a few hundred years ago.

To respond to Gilthoniel's question whether magic of the supernatural variety (definition #2 as given by Greenwood) existed in Middle-earth, I believe the answer is a very definite "yes". The instances that immediately come to my mind involve Gandalf. I guess it's not surprising that a wizard would be a practitioner of magic.  

The first example comes from _The Hobbit_:



> ...and when goblins came to grab him, there was a terrific flash like lightning in the cave, a smell like gunpowder, and several of them fell dead.


 
The second comes from _The Fellowship of the Ring,_ where it was apparent that Gandalf used a similar sort of attack when confronted by the Nazgûl at Weathertop:



> 'Perhaps,' said Strider. 'For myself, I believe that he was here, and was in danger. There have been scorching flames here; and now the light we saw three nights ago in the eastern sky comes back to my mind. I guess that he was attacked on this hill-top, but with what result I cannot tell...'


 
Gandalf achieved these effects through use of his staff. Today we have weapons that could produce the the effect described here, but as far as we know the Peoples of Middle-earth had not yet developed them. There are also several instances of Gandalf using his staff for illuminiation. Today we have flashlights.

Gandalf used magic of a different sort in Moria: spellcasting--



> 'Well, well! That's over!' said the wizard struggling to his feet. 'I have done all that I could. But I have met my match, and have nearly been destroyed. But don't stand here! Go on! You will have to do without light for awhile: I am rather shaken...
> 
> Gimli took his arm and helped him down to a seat on the step. 'What happened up there at the door?' he asked. 'Did you meet the beater of the drums?'
> 
> ...


 
From this passage we see that the Balrog, too, could cast magical spells.

There are many more examples of magic spells being cast in _The Hobbit_, _The Lord of the Rings_, and _The Silmarillion _but I'll leave them for others to find.


----------



## Greenwood (Mar 20, 2005)

OldTomBombadil said:


> I'm sure that many of today's technology would have been considered "magic" by the less technologically advanced cultures of a few hundred years ago.


Yes, there is a well known quote by one of the classic science fiction writers (maybe I should say formerly well known since right now I can't remember whether it was by Issac Asimov or Robert Heinlein  ) that the technology of any scientifically advanced culture will appear to be "magic" to a significantly less advanced culture. There is almost a whole subgenre of science fiction stories based on this idea.


----------



## Barliman Butterbur (Mar 20, 2005)

Alcuin said:


> ...What would be magic in Middle-Earth? Everything in Middle-Earth is magic: that’s how the inhabitants believed their world was put together...Magic is how everything is put together and kept together, it’s how everything works...What the Men of Middle-Earth called “magic” was knowledge to the Elves, knowledge of how the world worked and how to manipulate it.



This is the heart of the whole thing, and well put! Reminds me of a statement of Arthur C. Clark: "Technology seems like magic to those who don't understand it." And indeed that seems to be the case here: 

Elves — and other beings from over Sea — seemingly had natural abilities and/or understood how to manipulate certain of Middle-earth's laws of physics that other races didn't understand. So they called that "magic," which seems to be the term used to describe anything that seems to happen outside the current understanding of "natural law." Once it is understood how a thing works, it is no longer considered mysterious or magical. 

(It is to be noted however, that the inhabitants of Middle-earth accepted that "magic" existed in their world much more readily than those living in our own techno-saturated world.)

Barley


----------



## Greenwood (Mar 20, 2005)

Well, maybe it was Arthur C. Clarke, rather than Isaac Asimov or Robert Heinlein.


----------



## Ingwë (Mar 22, 2005)

Alcuin said:


> Do you believe that Anduin was magic?


 
I was alo wondering what does it mean. I thought there is hidden powers near Anduin. Elrond said these powers are hidden from Boromir. Therefore these powers aren`t Beornings and other peoples of Middle earth. 
Maybe he really mean Lórien. The elves maybe have some powers that the men don`t know. Maybe the elves of Lórien may command a flood like that in the valley of Rivendell or other powers they may wake.


----------



## Raithnait (Mar 30, 2005)

> Consider a real-world example. Trot over to a university and go sit in on a doctoral thesis in some arcane subject: derivatives and financial engineering is good, or string theory and the demise of black holes, or the physical chemistry of electron transfer in membranes. Be sure to get one that’s heavy into full mathematical explanation in excruciating detail. The Elves had the corresponding knowledge for Arda, but the ones who knew it were forgetting, leaving, dying, and failing to pass it on.





> Elves — and other beings from over Sea — seemingly had natural abilities and/or understood how to manipulate certain of Middle-earth's laws of physics that other races didn't understand. So they called that "magic," which seems to be the term used to describe anything that seems to happen outside the current understanding of "natural law." Once it is understood how a thing works, it is no longer considered mysterious or magical.



I rather think it'd be like if someone asked me to explain the wonder of the internet to them. Do I know how it works? Vaguely, but not enough to make it sound any more than 'magic', and yet I accept it and use it everyday. I have no clue how electricity works(save what I may be able to recall from my childhood, with great effort), but that is even more commonplace than the internet. I know that when I flick a light-switch, light should come into the room from the direction of the bulb on the ceiling or the lamp, I know that by pushing certain buttons I can turn my computer on and that by moving this rounded thing by my right hand and clicking a button I have access to some place that anyone, anywhere around the world can access, and that by using these buttons in front of me I can type out messages and communicate with people on other sides of the world, instantly. I rather think this is how the 'magic' of the elves was. They knew how to use the things around them to produce the desired effect, because that was a part of their life, but I doubt if your average elf fully understood the workings behind it all. The Men and Hobbits didn't know how these things were used and so it seemed 'magical' to them, but merely because they were unused to such things...


----------



## Alatar (Mar 30, 2005)

there is deffenatly magic in ME but some was more obviously magic.
Compare Gandalf in the hobbit(fireworks, exploding pine cones...), to Tom Bombadil they're of an equall order Toms magic is the mastery of the old forest. i don't doubt that tom could do the same as gandalf but he puts all his power into the earth so on his borders he is Master but (i think)weakening himself like melkor in the Sil.But noone call's tom magic.


----------



## Alatar (Mar 31, 2005)

Just came to me the plantir were most obiously magicly to the hobbits but to feanor they were just like using webcam on the net, a bit cool but technology not magic.


----------



## Ingwë (Mar 31, 2005)

Yes, but Tom Bombadil probably is an Ainu or created by the Ainur. He has some magical powers. Gandalf is also Ainu. He is Maia and he has a lot of magical powers, too. 
But I mean Magic in the ME, not in the creatures in ME. Is there a magic in Anduin, magic that`s in not in the creatures. What do you think?


----------



## Alatar (Mar 31, 2005)

Ahh...i see what you mean.

I think there is magic in ME, Amon hen and Amon lhaw the give you hearing and sight so there could easily be power in the great river of defence.
I think that Amon hen and Amon lhaw were blessed by a vala (Aule?) to give the forces of good some hope(maybe they were ment to be used by the dwarves????) and in the 3rd age Ulmo who never abadons ME could of put some of his power into the Anduin like he did to the Siron?
Yes there is magic in the _earth_ of ME (somone mentions the shires magic in LotR but i can't find the quote??
I look in on this thread later it is very intresting.


----------



## hob (Apr 3, 2005)

The word magic is too broad a term to use in all the instances of Tolkien's works, as many have pointed out. I think the parallel that Galadriel uses is very interesting.

As was mentioned, advanced 'technology' can appear to be magic. However, if we think of technology as loosely as possibly, perhaps merely as knowledge, things seem to fall into place regarding the use of powers in Ea. Perhaps animals all have their own language structures that can be understood and replicated. Perhaps even the flora of this world. What, then, could you achieve alongside these things, and how would it look to someone who knew nothing of this possibility.

For me, it's a case of remembering about the input of the author, and the limits that may be imposed due to the views of said author. It is well documented that Tolkien was a very religious man. I remember reading somewhere (no quote, apologies) that whilst writing his works about Middle Earth, he did so with respect to his own Christian faith. Although liberties were taken, he never tried to contradict his own beliefs. This was the reason why the fall of Elves was written about, yet the fall of Man was left untouched. Effectively, the Garden of Eden 'could' have been just over in the East there.

[At this point I'd like to point out that, although having a Christian upbringing, and a Vicar as a brother, I am in no way an active Christian, so please correct me where I'm wrong.]

The Christian Faith's stance on magic seems very clear to some, but quite muddled to most. For instance, how can witches be burned for performing their rituals, when anyone can pray for anything. That is, they can perform an action of praying. Whether this prayer is listened to and acted upon is a another matter.

The distinction is the difference between magic and magik/magick. One is the trick of the eyes, smoke and mirrors: simply knowing more than the observers. The other is the perverting of the current state for ones own end.

One works with, the other works against.

The Devil/Satan/Lucifer of the Bible used Alchemy to create his own power with which to do his evil deeds. Much like Melkor, who found himself unable to create of his own will, not being in possession of the Imperishable Flame. Instead, he had to twist and pervert what was already there. He could use his power to perform magic, but it was evil at its source. This is why Galadriel seems to distance what she does against the word magic, with it being associated with the Enemy. Remember, it's her that makes the connection between the word and Sauron.

Gandalf's use of light and 'explosions' can be put down to knowledge of physics and chemistry. However, his speech on the bridge to the Balrog seems very much like an incantation of some kind, a spell. The words seem so powerful and meaningful, even when you have no idea what he's talking about. Is this him calling on the use of a higher power? If so, the power is a 'good' power, and allowable by the 'good' guys. The power of Sauron is a 'good' power twisted into something 'evil'.

Of course, as with all of Tolkien's themes, things get a little blurry, as the good guys can use evil powers. Generally, things would transpire so that they would be punished for this in some way. I seem to remember a few Elves making some MAGIC rings once, and we all know how that ended.


----------



## Wraithguard (Apr 20, 2005)

The use of Gandalf's staff as illumination in Moria can still be created by an alchemical effect.

However, before they enter Moria, they are attacked by wolves in which Gandalf _may _have used magic. He immolted a tree brach and thrust it into the air, then said "Naur an edraith ammen! Naur dan i ngaurhoth!" Which immedieatly caused the tree above him to instantly combust. The fire 'then lept from tree-top to tree-top', illuminating the entire hill.

Perhaps the Istari used magic. Parhaps the Ainur merely used their powers granted to them by Iluvatar.

I will continue to research this topic.


----------



## ingolmo (Apr 28, 2005)

In the beginning of The Silmariallion there is an introductory type of essay/letter to someone called Milton Waldman by JRR Tolkien. In it, Tolkien explains his whole saga of middle-earth in short. In it there is something about magic, and what he calls magic, and whether what the elves and the Valar, Istari have can be called magic. In my opinion, magic is something that you gradually can develop and master better, whereas power is an inborn ability or something you have been blessed to get. 
Nice, interesting thread.  
-Ingolmo


----------



## OldTomBombadil (May 12, 2005)

Wraithguard said:


> The use of Gandalf's staff as illumination in Moria can still be created by an alchemical effect.


Please explain how this alchemical effect was accomplished. Also, can you provide evidence that Gandalf knew and employed this effect?

I believe Gandalf used magic to create the effect. Here's my evidence:



> Suddenly at the top of the stair there was a stab of white light. Then there was a dull rumble and a heavy thud. The drum-beats broke out wildly: _doom-boom, doom-boom_, and then stopped. Gandalf came flying down the steps and fell to the ground in the midst of the Company.
> 
> 'Well, well! That's over!' said the wizard struggling to his feet. 'I have done all that I could. But I have met my match, and have nearly been destroyed. But don't stand here! Go on! You will have to do without light for a while: I am rather shaken...'


Gandalf was extremely weary after his encounter with the yet unknown Balrog in the Chamber of Mazarbul, and lacked the energy to create light with his staff. A simple alchemical effect would require very little mental or physical energy for Gandalf to perform.


----------



## Barliman Butterbur (May 12, 2005)

Wraithguard said:


> The use of Gandalf's staff as illumination in Moria can still be created by an alchemical effect.



Alchemy! I think that's the first time I know of that anyone on this forum has offered that explanation for anything going on in Middle-earth. Questions: Do you believe in alchemy? How does it work? What kind of alchemistry would Gandalf have used?

Barley


----------



## Thorondor_ (May 22, 2005)

I doubt that it was (only) chemistry at work when Gandalf brought light into Moria, because he says: everyone from heaven to hell knows now that I am here. A mere use of chemistry doesn't do that.

"Questions: Do you believe in alchemy? How does it work? What kind of alchemistry would Gandalf have used?"
However, about alchemy. Any alchemic effect is based on the inner transformation of the alchemist; fire is the basic transformer; Gandalf is servant of the Flame Imperishable, weilder of the flame of Sun, and it is also stated that Istari live both in this realm and in Valinor (if I am not mistaken). So, you have the basic conditions for performing (most) alchemic processes.


----------



## OldTomBombadil (May 23, 2005)

Thorondor_ said:


> I doubt that it was (only) chemistry at work when Gandalf brought light into Moria, because he says: everyone from heaven to hell knows now that I am here. A mere use of chemistry doesn't do that.


I believe the passage Thorondor is referring to is:


> At last reluctantly Gandalf himself took a hand. Picking up a faggot he held it aloft for a moment, and then with a word of command, _naur an edraith ammen!_ he thrust the end of his staff into the midst of it. At once a great spout of green and blue flame sprang out, and the wood flared and sputtered.
> 
> 'If there are any to see, then I at least am revealed to them,' he said. 'I have written _Gandalf is here_ in signs that all can read from Rivendell to the mouths of Anduin.'


This occurs on Caradhras rather than in Moria. Also, characters in Tolkien are not given to speaking of either heaven or hell since neither exist per se in Tolkien's mythology. However, the essence his statement is correct. Gandalf used a power he possessed to light the faggot, with his staff acting as a conduit for that power. He did not combine combustible materials (chemistry) nor cause a transformation of elements (alchemy) to create fire. 

Since we're discussing alchemy, so as to avoid confusion we should probably define it. This definition from The Skeptic's Dictionary is probably as good as any:


> An occult art whose practitioners’ main goals have been to turn base metals such as lead or copper into precious metals such as gold or silver (the transmutation motif); to create an elixir, potion, or metal that could cure all ills (the panacea motif); and to discover an elixir that would lead to immortality (the transcendence motif).


So to create light from some combination of elements is not really a goal of alchemy. Perhaps Wraithguard had intended to say "chemical" rather than "alchemical". In any case, that's how I understood it. Since Thorondor says "chemical" rather than "alchemical", it would seem that is how he understood it as well.


----------



## Beren (May 23, 2005)

Gilthoniel said:


> In your opinion, is there magic in LOTR, or in fact ME? In my opinion, there are only powers, which those such as the Valar possess, and have passed onto The Istari, and Melkor, Sauron etc. There is no actual magic.
> This is open to debate, and could make a good poll, but as yet I am undecided wether to include one. Perhaps we can ask the mods later.
> Post away!


I think it depends on how you define magic. If magic is the use of a superhuman power to accomplish one's goals, then yes there is magic in ME. But if magic is (as I believe Tolkien thought of it) a perversion of Nature; a bending of Nature to one's own ends, then the magic is only what Sauron and Morgoth do. REMEMBER: one of the strongholds of Sauron is called Minas Morgul: The Tower of *Sorcery*


----------



## Thorondor_ (May 23, 2005)

I would say that magic is a rather direct way of dealing with various energies. When dealing with them indirectly, I would call that science. In magic, the most important thing is the person performing it, his inner condition; in science, the most important thing are the external conditions, and when such external conditions are recreated, then the phenomenon in question can be reproduced. In magic, one could perform a something which existing conditions (external to him/her) wouldn't allow to a "normal", non-magic using person, if I may say so.


----------



## Wraithguard (Jun 20, 2005)

Powers are inbred. Magic is something to be learned. Think of Superman: he was born with his powers, as was Manwë. While if we think of someone such as Zelda, here we have learned abilities that can be utilized at will, such as Saruman. All I am saying is Magic is learned while Powers are gifted. Whether or not everyone can learn Magic is yet another debate.


----------



## Thorondor_ (Jun 21, 2005)

Wraithguard said:


> Powers are inbred. Magic is something to be learned. Think of Superman: he was born with his powers, as was Manwë. While if we think of someone such as Zelda, here we have learned abilities that can be utilized at will, such as Saruman. All I am saying is Magic is learned while Powers are gifted. Whether or not everyone can learn Magic is yet another debate.


 
I don't think that Saruman learned his powers... he did have to re-learn some things, but he did not loose all his maiar power and knowledge when he came to M-E.


----------



## Alatar (Jun 21, 2005)

I think that power/ magic are close together, when you pass your power to your captians, you get weaker(morgoth) if you receive them, your magic gets stronger(sauron it the first age) if you keep you power, than you go on forever(Tom!)


----------



## Wraithguard (Jun 21, 2005)

The line between the 2 is as thin as that between Sanity and Insanity. Seems this could be discussed quite a bit. Powers can be put in the same class as magic as well as the other way around. Such as in Silent Hill 1 Alessa Gillespie is born with the power to bring bad things just by wishing them while Samael is given his power over a long time on his path of becoming a fallen angel. It would seem that there are flaws in my idea but I still believe there are major underlying differences we have yet to see.


----------

