# When Denethor thought Faramir was dead



## Sarah (Dec 29, 2004)

When Denethor thought Faramir was dead, do you suppose he was upset because Faramir was dead, or because he was the last surviving member of his house, that no one would carry on his genes and his name even if it were Faramir. You suppose if he really was upset that it was Faramir that was dead he might have at least considered what Pippin was saying. And, if this is true, and Denethor was just upset that he was the last of his house, then Gandalf was wrong when he said "Your father loves you, and he will see that before the end." (I know that's from the movie, I can't recall what he said in the book right now.) Now granted Denethor was a bit loony, so what was he really upset about?

Comments?


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## soltan gris (Dec 29, 2004)

Denethor was really sorry about his SON, FARAMIR, first; and THEN about his line.

"I sent my son forth, unthanked, unblessed, out into needless peril, and here helies with poison in his veins. Nay, nay, whatever may now betide in war, my line too is ending......" (ROTK , The siege of Gondor)
Denethor was trying to be as strong as possible when facing the peril of Mordor; he tried to forget everything that made him human so he could be able to whitstand the tide of darkness; everything, including the love for his own son. After the passing of Boromir (who was his favorite, of course) Denethor didn't reallise in the beggining that he loves Faramir too; not until his son was brought before him dying. THEN he begins to understand the folly of his actions and words. And he is sorry for them! This, along with the final encounter with Sauron through the Palantir drives him mad.


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## Eledhwen (Dec 29, 2004)

Gandalf's line in the film was a direct quote from the book; and I believe that Gandalf knew father and son well enough to have perceived rightly that Denethor did indeed love Faramir. It is sad that a parent often has the most difficulty with the child who is most like themselves, because 'the other man's grass is always greener', and what Denethor perceived as weakness in himself he probably also perceived as weakness in Faramir. Look at D's ridiculous decision to always wear his armour, day and night, to keep himself used to it! A man confident in armour would never feel the need to do such a thing unless he expected that night to be awoken for war. So it was that his admiration for his older son's prowess made him wish his younger son would behave likewise, and Faramir was seen as a disappointment when it was plain that he did not love warfare, even though he was ever ready to take his part when needed. His eyes were opened to his deeper feelings only when it became a matter of life and death.


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## Ravenna (Dec 31, 2004)

There was I think a huge amount of guilt in Denethor's reaction, as shown by the quote Soltan used.

Denethor had also been driven to the point of utter despair by his use of the Palantir.

These two combined to send a deeply stressed mind over the edge into madness and led to his suicide. It also explains why he ignored Pippin's attempts to convince him that Faramir still lived and could recover.

Deep differences in opinion, and the fact that Boromir, the more overtly 'heroic' of the two,was so recently dead; blinded Denethor to the true depth of his feelings for Faramir; feelings only revealed, as so often happens, when he thought he had lost his only remaining son.


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## Thráin II (Dec 31, 2004)

Denethor's well acknowledge madness makes him a very difficult person to make an analysis of.

He cared about his line greatly, as he was not even willing to accept the Return of the King with arms wide open.

He then cared for his son Boromir because he was what Denethor wished he could have been, a great warrior (see the scales).

He then loved Faramir but less than Boromir and would often waste his anger on him.

After the death of Boromir he went completely insane (maybe somewhat less than after the final confrontation with Sauron through the Palantir) and was completely blinded where his feelings for Faramir were concerned.

Gandalf spoke true becuase *before the end* Denethor did indeed realize the love for his sone, but it was then too late.

Denethor is an amazing character in the books, somewhat tragic in his madness, but he was ill-portrayed in the films.


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## Jotun (Dec 31, 2004)

Thráin II said:


> Denethor is an amazing character in the books, somewhat tragic in his madness, but he was ill-portrayed in the films.



I think he was portrayed fairly well in the films. They did add more of a "bitter old man" thing, but that's the impression I got from the book before he killed himself.


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## JRRTFAN09 (Dec 31, 2004)

i think Denethor was upset about his son and then got so caught up about his line that he didn't read the signs that would tell him that Faramir wasn't actually dead. For example in the movie you see that Faramir is sweating- dead people don't sweat!! Another thing is he should have listened to Pippin.


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## Ravenna (Dec 31, 2004)

Jotun said:


> I think he was portrayed fairly well in the films. They did add more of a "bitter old man" thing, but that's the impression I got from the book before he killed himself.



Not to turn this into a book vs film thread  , but I think the film overdid it. 

Denethor was of high and noble lineage despite his madness, but he was never an uncouth slob, relishing the discomfort of others.
He may have given up all hope for himself (and Faramir), but he did not expect all men to feel that way,



> follow whom you will, even the Grey Fool!


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## Jotun (Dec 31, 2004)

They made Denethor all disheveled looking to convey his craziness even further.

But hey, that's cool. I never said anyone had to agree.


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## Akallabeth (Jan 5, 2005)

Denethor's character itself was fairly portrayed in the films, but the worst bit was the running flaming dying Steward of Gondor. Whothen falls flaming into the city. Ugh. 

But not to continue the book vs. movie trend...

Denethor seemed to me more guilty than anything when Faramir returns mostly dead (but not all the way dead ) from Osgiliath. As a result of this terrible blow to his fatherhood he finally submits to depression and the admittance of defeat he has been resisting. I think that his grief about the end of his line is simply part of his hopeless conviction that Sauron will conquer.


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## Eledhwen (Jan 5, 2005)

It is the worst form of despair and self-pity, when someone destroys their nearest and dearest as part of their suicide. Denethor's motive was to hasten the inevitable, I feel, not 'I can't bear to live, so you won't either.' He did not believe his son was dead, but burning up with fever, leading to an inevitable death. His despair had unhinged him, and there was no proof that he would now accept that any hope remained for anyone. He saw no reason to stick to any laws or rules any longer, and spoke words of despair to his subordinates. Gandalf reminded him that he did not have the authority to order the time of his own death (as did a King of Gondor), but he took his life anyway when his son was rescued.


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## HLGStrider (Jan 6, 2005)

I think if Denethor's only concern in Faramir was his seed he would have been a lot more careful in perserving it. While Denethor in the books did not quite throw away his son's life in the haphazard way of the movie, he still made it clear to Faramir he would rather have him dead and ordered him to go do things that would likely get him killed.

Also, I don't think Denethor believed there would be any line to continue even with Faramir. He truly believed his entire people was going to be exterminated, not just his family.

That said, I think he did love Faramir, but towards the end he became incapable of reasoned love, first falling only to bitterness and self-pity then to madness that turned love to destruction.


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## Thráin II (Jan 6, 2005)

Jotun said:


> I think he was portrayed fairly well in the films. They did add more of a "bitter old man" thing, but that's the impression I got from the book before he killed himself.


 
What I mean is that there are FEW lines if any at all in the movie that show the wisdom that Denethor the book character evidently possesed.

He was a very wise and even stron man, who was able to withstand Gandalf's look and even defeat it (see RotK) but in the movie he was really made out to be just a mad fool.


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## spirit (Jan 6, 2005)

Personally, I never really liked Denathor's character. He was seriously psychologically messed up...I mean what kind of parent likes one some more than the other? It's quite sad really...
I don't believe that Denathor was sad because of his son dying, but devastated by the fact that that would be the end of his line. I still do believe that he would have rather that Faramir had died rather than Boromir...


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## Arvedui (Jan 6, 2005)

Denethor thought that Faramir was going to die, and in despair he sought advice through the Palantír. As Gandalf explained later, what he learned there was that Sauron's might was so great that Minas Tirith would be defeated and that the people there would have been killed to the last defender.
Also, I interpret the words of Gandalf such that Denethor finally admitted that he indeed loved Faramir, and instead of letting the Enemy slay him while he was dying and unable to defend himself, he choose to take him with him in death.


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## Eledhwen (Jan 6, 2005)

Arvedui said:


> Denethor thought that Faramir was going to die, and ... instead of letting the Enemy slay him while he was dying and unable to defend himself, he choose to take him with him in death.


This is a good point. If Denethor believed that Gondor would be overrun by Orcs, he knew that his and Faramir's bodies would be gruesomely used and displayed at the best. In his demented state, burning must have seemed the best solution.


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## Jotun (Jan 7, 2005)

Thráin II said:


> What I mean is that there are FEW lines if any at all in the movie that show the wisdom that Denethor the book character evidently possesed.



Oh, OK. My bad.


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