# Morgoth had help?



## Jan (Mar 10, 2004)

I am re-reading the Quenta Silmarillion and yesterday I came across a confusing (to me) statement. It was something to the effect that Morgoth had help from outside Arda, and I had the impression that it was someone beyond Sauron, Ungoliant, orcs, etc. 

Unfortunately, I can't find the passage now. It was just one sentence somewhere in the first 9 chapters.

Anyone know what I am referring to? Anyone know who we are talking about?


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## Lantarion (Mar 10, 2004)

Yes these are thought, at least by me, to be Maian spirits who were given shapes among the Úmanyar or monsters when they entered Arda. Some of them must have been so powerful that their inner strength would have been immediately converted into living fire in Arda, and their corrupted hearts to shadow, thus becoming Valaraukar; in my view anyway. 
And when you think about it, Melkor must have had other helpers than just Orcs and witless creatures! Some of these spiritsmight have been only 'lesser' Maiar, but they would have been more potent than, say, spiders or wild animals!


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## Jan (Mar 10, 2004)

No, that's not the reference. Darn. I really hate it when I do this! The sentence struck me as odd when I read it, so I made a mental (senile moment, apparently) note of it. 

Here's a clue: the sentence will have the word "outside" in it.

I will keep looking for it.


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## Confusticated (Mar 10, 2004)

Hmm... if not this statement about Ungoliant I do not know which one you have in mind:


> The Eldar knew not whence she came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwe, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service.



I can't think of anything else in _The Silmarillion_ that hints at Melkor getting spirits directly from outside of Arda.


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## Mornambar (Mar 30, 2004)

The only "help" Morgoth recieved was in the beggining when he corrupted Maia to his cause.


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## Aglarband (Mar 30, 2004)

Mornambar said:


> The only "help" Morgoth recieved was in the beggining when he corrupted Maia to his cause.



Well, I beleive the Balrogs were Maia, so in a sense that might be the answer. But i doubt it has anything to do with "your" sentence.


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## Melian_the_Maya (Mar 31, 2004)

I can't find anything on that either, but to my mind, mornambar is right, though I wouldn't say that he got help from the Maia, he did the work of corrupting them on their own. Afterwards he sort of owned them, I think.


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## Iluisa Olórin (Mar 31, 2004)

Jan said:


> Here's a clue: the sentence will have the word "outside" in it.



The only time "outside" is used in a sentence is with reference to Lúthien wearing the Nauglamír.


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## Walter (Mar 31, 2004)

Iluisa Olórin said:


> The only time "outside" is used in a sentence is with reference to Lúthien wearing the Nauglamír.


...Indeed! Which is in chapter 22...

So, if it is not the part Nóm quoted and not that of Ungoliant either, could it be a "reading-slip" of this sentence:



> Out of the deeps of Eä she came to the aid of Manwë; for Melkor she knew from before the making of the Music and rejected him, and he hated her, and feared her more than all others whom Eru made.


?


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