# Last Alliance participants



## Sartr (Aug 4, 2022)

From the battle of the Last Alliance:



> All living things were divided in that day, and some of every kind, even of beasts and birds, were found in either host, save the Elves only. They alone were undivided and followed Gil-galad.



So that means there were:
Evil Hobbits
Evil Ents
Evil Eagles
Good Orcs
Good Trolls
Good Spiders?


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 4, 2022)

Sartr said:


> From the battle of the Last Alliance:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Intriguing. I guess I never gave this much thought-- but you may be right.


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## Starbrow (Aug 4, 2022)

I have a hard time believing that there were orcs and trolls as part of the Last Alliance with Gil-galad and Elendil. Do you think Tolkien really meant that?


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## Eljorahir (Aug 4, 2022)

Even the Great Master can slip up now and then. Use of absolute wording gets you into trouble almost every time: "ALL living things..." and "some of EVERY kind..."

How much this bothers you may depend on how you view Tolkien. Was he the God-like creator who's every written word must be utter perfection? Or, is he the imperfect historian of Arda?

I'm in the "imperfect historian" camp. So, I'll be able to sleep tonight not worrying too much about looking for the orcs, hobbits, and squirrels who fought on both sides of the battle.


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## Starbrow (Aug 4, 2022)

I don't know if I'll be able to sleep tonight because I'll thinking about squirrels throwing nuts at each other.😂


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## Olorgando (Aug 5, 2022)

Sartr said:


> From the battle of the Last Alliance:
> 
> 
> > All living things were divided in that day, and some of every kind, even of beasts and birds, were found in either host, save the Elves only. They alone were undivided and followed Gil-galad.
> ...


First, it has been noted time and again that JRRT had a tendency to get carried away with hyperbole - even his son Christopher said as much.

Then, the term "kind" is vague. Biology has a far stricter nomenclature, including definitions of levels - where experts disagree on the number and the members at times, as things are simply not as clear-cut as many would wish, and revisions have been necessary as more information became available over the centuries since Linnaeus. To take just the lower five levels of one hierarchy, does "kind" mean Class, Order, Family, Genus or Species?

Strangely, I have been unable to locate Hobbits, Ents, Orcs and Trolls - or for that matter Dwarves and Elves - in any classification I've come across ...


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 5, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> First, it has been noted time and again that JRRT had a tendency to get carried away with hyperbole - even his son Christopher said as much.
> 
> Then, the term "kind" is vague. Biology has a far stricter nomenclature, including definitions of levels - where experts disagree on the number and the members at times, as things are simply not as clear-cut as many would wish, and revisions have been necessary as more information became available over the centuries since Linnaeus. To take just the lower five levels of one hierarchy, does "kind" mean Class, Order, Family, Genus or Species?
> 
> Strangely, I have been unable to locate Hobbits, Ents, Orcs and Trolls - or for that matter Dwarves and Elves - in any classification I've come across ...


Were Hobbits even around at the Last Alliance?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 5, 2022)

Starbrow said:


> I don't know if I'll be able to sleep tonight because I'll thinking about squirrels throwing nuts at each other.😂


I can easily believe in evil squirrels.


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## Olorgando (Aug 5, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Were Hobbits even around at the Last Alliance?


Around *somewhere*, most likely. And most likely further to the east, as just about everyone in JRRT's legendarium seems to come in from the east.

As to the matters of records, there's Appendix B in RoTK, section "The Third Age", entry for the year 1050 TA: "The Periannath are first mentioned in records, with the coming of the Harfoots to Eriador."


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 5, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> Around *somewhere*, most likely. And most likely further to the east, as just about everyone in JRRT's legendarium seems to come in from the east.
> 
> As to the matters of records, there's Appendix B in RoTK, section "The Third Age", entry for the year 1050 TA: "The Periannath are first mentioned in records, with the coming of the Harfoots to Eriador."


Thanks for this response.

I've noticed this also. Why does everything come from the East?

Gimli actually says that tidings should not be asked of the East, and Aragorn confirms this. In the East is Mordor, so why would things come from there? It doesn't really make sense-- and while I know that Mordor wasn't there yet, it was still thought of as an Evil place, was it not? That was the area of the Mountains of Terror, right?

I might be remembering this wrong...


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 5, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> it was still thought of as an Evil place, was it not?


_East of Evil, West of Wonder (and Valinor!)_


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## Goldilocks Gamgee (Aug 6, 2022)

Sartr said:


> From the battle of the Last Alliance:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good spiders - normal spiders.
Good trolls - um, stupid ones?
Good orcs - elves.
Evil Eagles - just corrupt ones.
Evil Ents - I'm sure it happens.
And I don't think Hobbits were around back then.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 6, 2022)

Goldilocks Gamgee said:


> Good spiders - normal spiders.
> Good trolls - um, stupid ones?
> Good orcs - elves.
> Evil Eagles - just corrupt ones.
> ...


Thanks for some insight. The Hobbit question already surfaced-- above.


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## Ent (Sep 1, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Thanks for this response.
> 
> I've noticed this also. Why does everything come from the East?
> 
> ...



It IS a curious question, isn't it..!
And we remember that 2 of the Istari went into the east, and we never hear of them again. 
Saruman went with them, but he returned (somewhat polluted, unless he had already carried his pollution with him), and set himself up in Isengard, already a liar and with designs for power. 

Perhaps everything "comes from the East" as it's a great place to be FROM, but not a great place to be IN.


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