# Conflict for Mithril in 2nd Age?(No trap of thucydides)



## Hisoka Morrow (Sep 11, 2020)

This does not involve any trap of thucydides at all I swear, I just wonder if Mithtil was really such important military industrial resources, then would the Noldor powers and Numenorain(After Tar-Ciryatur's reign) get into any unfriendly and hateful mood for the authority to claim those Mithril mines?Yeah, even if those Noldor states and Numenor had no deep hostile against each other,we all know how irreplaceable was those Mithril mines for these Powers.
The Noldor elves might have to prepare any military action against Sauron's RUSE, for even though they didn't need to prepare for military operations against Numenor, yet Sauron got bunches of other armed forces such as Easterlings, and even orcs(it's obvious Sauroncan spam orcs at any time according to the short period he took to spam them between the Numenor Downfall and Last Alliance).
The Numenor's demands for Mithril was largely without doubt due to their military expansion.
So...here comes to an problem, could those Noldor and Numenor begin to "press dislike" on each other due to the bumines for Mithril?


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## Aldarion (Sep 12, 2020)

Numenor already had mithril on the island, so claiming Moria would not have been that crucial.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Sep 12, 2020)

Yeah, but even if the Numenor had enough output of Mithril, should it prevent those Mithril mines from falling into Free People after Sauron became it's prime minister?
Or maybe Sauron just think all Free People were a piece of cake. According to the Similari, Noldor's dramatic uprising after the Downfall seemed surprise Sauron. So could Sauron just thought Noldor, Faithfuls or any Free People wasn't powerful enough to control Moria.


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## Aldarion (Sep 12, 2020)

Hisoka Morrow said:


> Yeah, but even if the Numenor had enough output of Mithril, should it prevent those Mithril mines from falling into Free People after Sauron became it's prime minister?
> Or maybe Sauron just think all Free People were a piece of cake. According to the Similari, Noldor's dramatic uprising after the Downfall seemed surprise Sauron. So could Sauron just thought Noldor, Faithfuls or any Free People wasn't powerful enough to control Moria.



The Faithful had already established colonies to the west and south of Moria. And after Numenor fell to the shadow, colonization was aimed primarily to Umbar and areas south of it. So impression I get is that, between Gil-Galad's Elves and Numenoreans living there, they were too strong for Numenor to easily subdue. Even if Numenor might have been able to win in a war, it would have been a costly victory. Keep in mind that the Alliance of Elves and Men was able to win against Sauron despite latter having access to resources of both his domains and colonies of King's Men.

So either Sauron didn't think they were a threat, or else they were _too much_ of a threat.


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## Alcuin (Sep 12, 2020)

I don’t think mithril was valued for any military applications it might have, though due to its hardness, I suppose it must have been used for martial purposes, e.g. Frodo’s mithril mailcoat, the mithril helms of the Guard of the Citadel of Minas Tirith, the new gates of Minas Tirith the Dwarves forged for King Elessar made of “mithril and steel”. But instead I think it was valued for its beauty, scarcity, and the applications to which it could be applied: _ithildin_, the silvery writing on the doors of Moria, and perhaps the “silver pens” the Dwarves used to write moon runes (in _The Hobbit_). 

Mithril was beautiful, silvery, and never tarnished. The Dwarves could forge it into a hard form (an alloy, perhaps?), such as Frodo’s mail. In the chronology of the Second Age in Appendix B, it is said that the Noldor founded Eregion near Moria specifically “because they learned that _mithril_ had been discovered in Moria.” Of what was found in Moria after its ruin by Durin’s Bane, “the Orcs … gathered nearly all, and [gave] it in tribute to Sauron, who covets it.” (_RotK_, “Journey in the Dark”) In the list of the Kings of Númenor in _Unfinished Tales_, Tar-Telemmaitë was “so called because of his love of silver, and he bade his servants to seek ever for _mithril_.” (Which hints that “Telemmaitë” was not his birth name, but a sobriquet he earned as an adult; no other name, however, is given for this king, unlike Tar-Aldarion whose birth name was “Anardil” but ruled under his nickname.) 

I could be wrong, but it surely seems to me that the primary impetus for gathering hoards of mithril was not for its uses, which seem to have been many, but for its beauty and scarcity, as men and dwarves (and dragons!) gather and hoard gold. In a word, greed.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Sep 14, 2020)

I see…by the way,due to my recent military service unit has been transferred, I am likely able to reply in only weekend


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## Hisoka Morrow (Sep 18, 2020)

Alcuin said:


> ...but it surely seems to me that the primary impetus for gathering hoards of mithril was not for its uses,...


🤔 🤔 I see...so Mithril seem to have a role like luxury like gold at least partially, instead of being used as factually useful resources. Yet I wonder if JRRT described it as luxury like jewel(obviously finical products to describe Gondor's economic power). It seems there're none accumulate Mithril as a symbol of richness like normal luxury.



Aldarion said:


> or else they were _too much_ of a threat.


Hmmm...if that's so, then this means even economic sanction against Noldor states would be too costly for the Numenor(No reasons for Sauron to let go off such precious resources that could strengthen the his enemies). Or even maybe launching any military operation or blockade Moria was too costly too, after all Sauron must have witnessed the risk to take Moria during his War to retake the Rings, yeah his armed forces kept chasing the Dwarf till Moria checked their advance.



Aldarion said:


> So either Sauron didn't think they were a threat


Or maybe this is the right answer, it's obvious Sauron got surprised by Gil-Galad's power after the Downfall, this means he severely underestimated Gil-Galad's power. All the threat Sauron thought to be strong enough was no more than the Numenor.


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## Olorgando (Sep 18, 2020)

Hisoka - correct me if I'm wrong. but you seem to be searching for post-WW II allegories in LoTR (or whatever), or perhaps in Chinese history (about half of which seems legendary, if one takes the Xia dynasty as the first). Neither approach will help you in understanding JRRT - certainly not a Chinese one.


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## grendel (Sep 18, 2020)

Alcuin said:


> In the chronology of the Second Age in Appendix B, it is said that the Noldor founded Eregion near Moria specifically “because they learned that _mithril_ had been discovered in Moria.”



I seem to remember reading _somewhere_ that the Misty Mountains were originally raised by Melkor as a barrier to the Firstborn, who were moving west at the behest of the Valar. Was it just coincidence then, or perhaps a snarky prank of Aulë, that those mountains would be chock-full of mithril? Melkor would certainly not create something beautiful for the use of others.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 18, 2020)

The Silmarillion, IIRC. He raised the mountains originally to hinder the movements of Orome, who ranged ME hunting monsters on his horse Nahar.

Interesting question. It does seem unlikely Melkor would create mithril intentionally -- or even be able to. Perhaps it could be seen as an unforseen byproduct of the tremendous pressures involved in the sudden irruption of the range, which, I believe, is said to have been much worn down in subsequent ages.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Sep 19, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> ...but you seem to be searching for post-WW II allegories in LoTR (or whatever)...


My dear...military conflicts caused by economic reasons such as treasure was not rare in JRRT's lore 😖 😖 😖 . Why is this still allegories instead of similarities???...😖😖😖?



Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> ...that those mountains would be chock-full of mithril? Melkor would certainly not create something beautiful for the use of others.
> ...It does seem unlikely Melkor would create mithril intentionally...


Exactly I agree, unless Melkor's creatures were too stupid to master the technology of using Mithril, Melkor wouldn't create some resources useless to him.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 19, 2020)

On the other hand, Sauron is said to "greatly covet" mithril, though I don't recall any statement about what he did with it. His attitude may have been like Smaug's toward gold.

Neither do I know if he "inherited" this desire from Morgoth, but it would seem likely the latter would consider it all "belonged" to him, if its creation was the result of his raising the mountains.

On the third hand, one could speculate that the other Valar, or even Eru, may have had a hand in its making, harking back to Eru's statements during the Music.

Mithril, like gold, seems to have had an ambivalent place in the _moral _universe of Middle-earth; useful and highly-prized, but often cursed.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Sep 19, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> ...useful and highly-prized, but often cursed...


Maybe it's up to the owners's ways of uses, for instances, Frodo was "strictly speaking to be blessed" due to such powerful stuff XDD, yet the Numenor Empire used it as a tool for their worldwide Imperialism.



Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> On the third hand, one could speculate that the other Valar, or even Eru, may have had a hand in its making, harking back to Eru's statements during the Music.


It's reasonable, Melkor intervention against Eru's creation leading to the creation of Dwarf indirectly is an example. We may presume that some Valar, in order to strengthen the military power of the elves to fight against Melkor, creating such precious resources.



Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> On the other hand, Sauron is said to "greatly covet" mithril, though I don't recall any statement about what he did with it. His attitude may have been like Smaug's toward gold.


Yeah, it seems at least Sauron's technology standard wasn't advanced enough to put Mithril into good use, at least we find no any military products equipped by the Dark Side, apart from the Numenor Empire after their Corruption.


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## Akhôrahil (Sep 20, 2020)

In which work written by J.R.R. Tolkien does he ever mention that the Numenoreans used mithril and what they used it for?


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## Alcuin (Sep 21, 2020)

Hisoka Morrow said:


> [M]ilitary conflicts caused by economic reasons such as treasure was not rare in JRRT's lore … Why is this still allegories instead of similarities??? …


I concur: military conflicts – or raids or attacks in general – can be the result of greed for treasure: e.g. the raids of the Germans against the Roman Empires (note the plural: both the Western and Eastern (Byzantine) empires), the Viking raids of the Dark Ages, the raids of the steppes barbarians into China (before the Mongol invasion), or in Tolkien’s world the assault of Smaug upon the Dwarves of Erebor: all driven by greed for spoil. Or they may simply be matters of conquest: as Éowyn so eloquently put it to the Warden of the Houses of Healing,
It needs but one foe to breed a war, not two… And those who have not swords can still die upon them.​


Hisoka Morrow said:


> [U]nless Melkor's creatures were too stupid to master the technology of using Mithril, Melkor wouldn't create some resources useless to him.


I don’t think Morgoth made gold or mithril: His interest was in annihilating everything that did not proceed from him. In _Morgoth’s Ring_ Tolkien called this disposition a state of _nihilism_. Besides, Morgoth kept as thralls (slaves) many captured Noldor and Sindar who were skilled in metalwork and finework; and I adhere to the earlier notion that the first Orcs were Elves Morgoth captured and corrupted into his service. Nor do I believe Sauron lacked technical or engineering skills to use mithril: I think his desire to possess it arose from its scarcity and value: in this sense, Sauron was acting like a dragon sitting on a horde that, other than sitting on it, was of no practical use to him. 



Akhôrahil said:


> In which work written by J.R.R. Tolkien does he ever mention that the Numenoreans used mithril and what they used it for?


The one use that comes immediately to mind are the mithril helms of the Guards of the Citadel of Minas Tirith. Remember, Anárion’s helm was crushed by a stone-cast from Barad-dûr; a mithril helm might be no use against a heavy stone catapulted at speed, but it would be a surer protection against swords, axes, and perhaps even maces than steel. I suspect the Guards of the Citadel of Minas Tirith were what remained of the royal guard of the Kings of Gondor. Isildur’s guard was slaughtered across from the Gladden Fields, but perhaps such helms were among them, too.

Don’t forget the mithril Dwarf-mail that Thorin gave Bilbo (was this made originally for Legolas at the behest of his father Thranduil?), or the new gates of Minas Tirith made of “mithril and steel” that the Dwarves forged for Aragorn Elessar.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Sep 26, 2020)

Alcuin said:


> ...I think his desire to possess it arose from its scarcity and value...


Oh, yes, Morgoth demand for luxury was obvious, otherwise he won't covet the Similarion so much. In addition, for my military service unit has been transferred, thus I can only reply you guys in weekend mostly.


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