# Arwen's Mortality



## Wood Elf (Mar 18, 2002)

When Arwen gives up her immortality, "forsakes the twilight", she becomes a mortal. Now, this does not mean she is no longer an elf, right? She is just a mortal elf. She still has her pointy ears. Is there such thing as a mortal elf, or would mortal elf=human? Hmm..know what I mean? Would she still have the super-human qualities of keen sight/hearing/strength/no sickness of an elf, or are these given up when she becomes mortal?


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## Harad (Mar 18, 2002)

I don't believe that Elves in general could give up their immortality. Only those in the family of Elrond, the "half"-elven. Therefore Arwen was either mortal or immortal from the beginning, something not true of your pure-blood Elf.


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## baraka (Mar 18, 2002)

> She still has her pointy ears


Hmmm. Can you tell me where in the Sil or LOTR says that elves have pointy ears?


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## gimli_alvevenn (Mar 18, 2002)

But how can she give up here immortality so late in her life?
Do you think it has anything to do with the elvenstar she gives to Aragorn i FotR?


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## Wood Elf (Mar 18, 2002)

Hehe. I made that up!  I bet her ears didn't suddenly morph or anything though. 

So, only family members of half-elves could lose their immortality? I thought that if an elf married a mortal, they had to give up their immortality.

Arwen was an elf though. Did she have to choose if she wanted to be human or elf? I know Elrond chose to be an elf. 

So, this mortality/immortality thing only has to do with the families of half-elves, which would be Luthien/Beren, Idril/Tuor, and Arwen/Aragorn. 

I am confused now. The issue of half-elves and marriage and immortality/mortality interests me, but I am confused about it.


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## Beleg Strongbow (Mar 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Wood Elf _
> *Hehe. I made that up!  I bet her ears didn't suddenly morph or anything though.
> 
> So, only family members of half-elves could lose their immortality? I thought that if an elf married a mortal, they had to give up their immortality.
> ...





What about idril?? and Luthien? I think that any elf if they were special enough or loved one enough could give up their immortality. Although the kids of elrond have to chose either and they chose as late as they want.


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## Wood Elf (Mar 18, 2002)

I did mention Idril and Luthien, two of the elf/man marriages. 

I guess I am wondering two things here:[P]

*-1)* Do *all* elves have to give up their immortality when they marry a human, or does this only apply to half-elves and their descendents?[/P]

[P]*-2)*When an elf, like Arwen for example, gives up their immortality, do they keep their elvish qualities (keen sight, hearing, pointy ears, superhuman qualities) or do they become human? Are they human, or just a mortal elf? [/P]


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## Tar-Elenion (Mar 18, 2002)

Neither Idril nor Mithrellas, both of whom were Elves that were wed to Men gave up their 'immortality'. 
Arwen was not an Elf.


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## chrysophalax (Mar 18, 2002)

Uummmmmm begging your pardon,but if Celebrian is half-Noldor,half-
Teleri,and Elrond is half-Noldor,half-human, doesn't that make Arwen 3/4 Elven?


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## Tar-Elenion (Mar 18, 2002)

Technically Celebrian is 1/8th Noldo, 1/8th Vanya, 1/4th Teler (from her mother) and 1/2 Sinda (or Teler) from her father.
Elrond is 37.5% Man, 6.25% Maia and a mixture (56.25%) of Noldo, Sinda/Teler and Vanya.
Arwen is 18.75% Man, 3.125% Maia and 78.625% Elf.
However Arwen was one of the Peredhil (Half-elves) as was her grandmother Elwing who was 62.5% Elf, 12.5% Maia and 25% Man. Earendil was the only 'true' _half_ Elf in (in _these_ lines of descent) being 50% Man and 50% Elf (Luthien too, 50% Elf, 50% Maia, but she is not accounted among the Peredhil).


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## Elanor2 (Mar 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Tar-Elenion _
> *Neither Idril nor Mithrellas, both of whom were Elves that were wed to Men gave up their 'immortality'.
> Arwen was not an Elf. *



Hi, Tar-Elenion
I disagree. Arwen was an Elf. Her father was an Elf (he made the choice long before she was born) and so was her mother, so she must be and elf, just like her brothers.

Somewhere (ROTK appendix, I think) Arwen says that her choice is "Luthien's choice". That means, for me, that an elf who marries a human can choose to follow him/her and ask the Valar to ask Eru to change their destiny (that's what happened to Luthien at least). Whether the Valar and Eru accept, that's another matter.

Why the choice is not given to their human counterparts, that's a toughter question. However, it is possible as well, as in the case of Tuor. Perhaps then Aragorn also had a choice, but decided that he should remain human and be a king to his people. However, Tolkien never said that, so we have to find another explanation.

One possibility is that Human destiny is incomplete in Arda. Elves destiny is linked to Arda but not the destiny of Humans, who have to die and continue somewhere else. So, a Human who remains in Arda is "incomplete", sort of. That's why humans have to die and elves can (eventually) choose to follow them, in a sort of deepest exile ever with no return possibilities. Considering that the elves are linked to Arda, exile forever from Arda must be a hard choice indeed.

Regards. Elanor2


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## Cian (Mar 19, 2002)

> "Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights." JRRT



Arwen says to Aragorn ("Tale Of A&A") that the children of Elrond have the 'life of the Eldar.' And of course Tolkien himself knew that  but Arwen was accounted one of the _Pereldar_, and had the choice of kin (as her brothers did) in any event.

::so Tar-E _is_ about. I'm waiting for that possible work-up of _uruktharbun_::


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## Legolam (Mar 19, 2002)

That's a great piece of maths there Tar-E! I've always wanted to do that, but never really had the will!

I always thought that elves marrying humans had two choices 
1) stay elven and never die, but they would lose their loved one and have to spend eternity without them
2) become human and forsake mortality, but be with their loved one forever

I know which one I would choose ...

Also, the choice of the parent would determine the future of their offspring, so the offspring of an elf that became a human (like Elros' line) would never be able to become immortal again. Only elves can choose to give up their gift from Iluvatar


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## Wood Elf (Mar 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Wood Elf _
> *I did mention Idril and Luthien, two of the elf/man marriages.
> 
> I guess I am wondering two things here:[P]
> ...


* So, Half-elves don't have to give up their immortality to marry a human, they can be counted elf (immortal), or man (mortal). Arwen didn't have to choose mortality to marry Aragorn, she could have remained immortal if she wanted to, but would have to live without Aragorn the rest of her life. So she chose mortality based on being and dying with Aragorn. Up until the time she met Aragorn, Arwen hadn't chosen yet which race she wanted to be counted as. What was she considered before she made the choice? Real elves though, could not choose, and would have to remain immortal. They don't get that choice, right? 




[P]-2)When an elf, like Arwen for example, gives up their immortality, do they keep their elvish qualities (keen sight, hearing, pointy ears, superhuman qualities) or do they become human? Are they human, or just a mortal elf? [/P]

Click to expand...

* So, Arwen had chosen to be counted among humans, that day in Lothlorien. She still had elf-blood in her, but she was counted among humans from that point on, right?


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## Beleg Strongbow (Mar 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Wood Elf _
> * So, Half-elves don't have to give up their immortality to marry a human, they can be counted elf (immortal), or man (mortal). Arwen didn't have to choose mortality to marry Aragorn, she could have remained immortal if she wanted to, but would have to live without Aragorn the rest of her life. So she chose mortality based on being and dying with Aragorn. Up until the time she met Aragorn, Arwen hadn't chosen yet which race she wanted to be counted as. What was she considered before she made the choice? Real elves though, could not choose, and would have to remain immortal. They don't get that choice, right?
> 
> 
> So, Arwen had chosen to be counted among humans, that day in Lothlorien. She still had elf-blood in her, but she was counted among humans from that point on, right? *




yes


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## Wood Elf (Mar 19, 2002)

Okay! Thank you.


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## Tar-Elenion (Mar 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Elanor2 _
> Hi, Tar-Elenion
> I disagree. Arwen was an Elf. Her father was an Elf (he made the choice long before she was born) and so was her mother, so she must be and elf, just like her brothers.



Hello Elanor (the same as over at the Inklings?),
JRRT in Letter 423 wrote:
"Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights."



> Somewhere (ROTK appendix, I think) Arwen says that her choice is "Luthien's choice". That means, for me, that an elf who marries a human can choose to follow him/her and ask the Valar to ask Eru to change their destiny (that's what happened to Luthien at least). Whether the Valar and Eru accept, that's another matter.



Like Luthien, Arwen chose 'mortality' for love of a Man. However she (Arwen) was not an Elf. She was a Peredhel who was granted the doom of having a choice. The only Elf allowed to change their fate was Luthien. In Letter 153 JRRT wrote: "Luthien is allowed as an absolute exception to divest herself of 'immortality' and become 'mortal'". I note the "absolute exception". He also in the same letter wrote: "Arwen is not a 're-incarnation' of Lúthien (that in the view of this mythical history would be impossible, since Lúthien has died like a mortal and left the world of time) but a descendant very like her in looks, character, and fate. When she weds Aragorn (whose love-story elsewhere recounted is not here central and only occasionally referred to) she 'makes the choice of Lúthien', so the grief at her parting from Elrond is specially poignant." 



> Why the choice is not given to their human counterparts, that's a toughter question. However, it is possible as well, as in the case of Tuor. Perhaps then Aragorn also had a choice, but decided that he should remain human and be a king to his people. However, Tolkien never said that, so we have to find another explanation.



Letter 153 notes that: "Túor weds Idril the daughter of Turgon King of Gondolin; and 'it is supposed' (not stated) that he as an unique exception receives the Elvish limited 'immortality': an exception either way", and also later: "Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the Eruhini (in whose conception and creation the Valar had no part at all) it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case: the cases of Lúthien (and Túor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God. The entering into Men of the Elven-strain is indeed represented as part of a Divine Plan for the ennoblement of the Human Race, from the beginning destined to replace the Elves."



> One possibility is that Human destiny is incomplete in Arda. Elves destiny is linked to Arda but not the destiny of Humans, who have to die and continue somewhere else. So, a Human who remains in Arda is "incomplete", sort of. That's why humans have to die and elves can (eventually) choose to follow them, in a sort of deepest exile ever with no return possibilities. Considering that the elves are linked to Arda, exile forever from Arda must be a hard choice indeed.



Correct, Elves are bound to the World, Men are not. When they die they 'seek elsewhither'. However Elves cannot choose to follow them. Luthien was the only (an 'absolute') exception in this matter, and that was a result of Eru's direct involvement. Luthien and Tuor were the only 'pureblood' 'immortal' and 'mortal' who were granted a 'fundamental alteration in kind'. The others who were allowed a Choice were Half-elven. In the 'Judgement of Manwe' in HoME 5 it is noted that anyone with _any_ mortal blood is 'mortal' (in fate) unless specifically granted other Doom. For Aragorn to have a choice would necesitate another 'direct act of God'.


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## Tar-Elenion (Mar 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Cian _
> ::so Tar-E _is_ about. I'm waiting for that possible work-up of _uruktharbun_::



I was hoping someone else would present a possibilty first so I could see if I was off base. I will put it there a little later.


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## Tar-Elenion (Mar 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Legolam _
> That's a great piece of maths there Tar-E! I've always wanted to do that, but never really had the will!



Thanks. I actually have the exact amounts of the varieties of Elf blood worked out as well, but could not find the paper I have it written down on (and was to lazy to search for it where I posted it before (in the 'newsgroups').



> I always thought that elves marrying humans had two choices
> 1) stay elven and never die, but they would lose their loved one and have to spend eternity without them
> 2) become human and forsake mortality, but be with their loved one forever
> 
> I know which one I would choose ...



It would seem not. The only 'Elf' granted this 'right' was Luthien. The other two Elves in the Legendarium noted to have wed with Men (Idril and Mithrellas) were not granted this choice (though the Fate of Tuor was changed, perhaps as some sort of 'balance', and Mithrellas marriage _may_ have been somewhat 'forced'). 



> Also, the choice of the parent would determine the future of their offspring, so the offspring of an elf that became a human (like Elros' line) would never be able to become immortal again. Only elves can choose to give up their gift from Iluvatar.



For any offspring of Elf and Man to have a Choice they would have to be specifically granted one by Manwe (who was allowed this right by Eru). By the Judgement of Manwe: "Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me" (see HoME 5) the offspring of Elros had no Choice, and it would seem neither did Dior or his sons Elured and Elurin. No Elf can _choose_ to give up their gift (this would need the direct intervention of Eru).


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## zeuqirne (Mar 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Tar-Elenion _
> *Neither Idril nor Mithrellas, both of whom were Elves that were wed to Men gave up their 'immortality'.
> Arwen was not an Elf. *



what do you mean Arwen was not an elf???!!! of course she is!!!


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## Tar-Elenion (Mar 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by zeuqirne _
> what do you mean Arwen was not an elf???!!! of course she is!!!



As I posted above:
JRRT in Letter 423 wrote: 
"Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights." 
I just happen to agree with Professor Tolkien.


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## Urylia (Mar 22, 2002)

I've been following along pretty well so far but...

What about Arwen's son/daughter's are they half-elfs or quarter-elfs or no elfs or full elfs or somethingelfs???

Help!! I'm confusing myself!!!!!!!


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## theEvenStar (Mar 22, 2002)

Elves did not have pointy ears, period.


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## shadowfax_g (Mar 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Wood Elf _
> *I did mention Idril and Luthien, two of the elf/man marriages.
> 
> I guess I am wondering two things here:
> ...



I understood that Elrond's children have to give up their immortality when they leave Elrond. Then Arwen had to become mortal because she chose to be with Aragorn therefore had to leave her father. Not because of her marriage itself.
But I wonder whether her siblings also have to give up their immortality or not if they marry human but still stay with Elrond..


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## tyeruler (Apr 4, 2002)

It makes a person wonder. Arwen, in my mind is still an elf but is no longer immortal. She will eventually die just as humans do. 



But I do have a question.........what happened to her immortality. I was never quite clear on that. Was it given to Aragorn? So now he is immortal?


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## Thorin (Apr 4, 2002)

Luthien was an exception because there was no rule about what fate elves could choose....Eru directly involved Himself in that decision. Luthien, however, was also half-elven...Melian, her mother, was Maia....

It wasn't until Elros and Elrond that the option for which fate to choose was given to the half-elven. Elros chose man's fate and began the Numenorean race, Elrond chose Elven....Both were half-elven because Elwing married Earendil (son of Tuor and Idril). And Elwing was the daughter of Dior who was half-elven (his parents were Beren and Luthien) So technically, Earendil was half-elven, and Elwing was half-elven with Maia).

Arwen (being the daughter of Elrond half-elven) gave her the choice to choose the fate of man or elf...It was not a forced choice by marriage....Arwen chose the fate of man (like her uncle Elros) because she loved Aragorn and wanted to stay with him (Like Luthien chose to be with Beren). In the LoTR appendix, Arwen tells Aragorn, "I am not her (Luthien) though our fates may be the same". In other words, she knew that she may want to follow Aragorn because of love at first sight....


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## Hanne (Apr 4, 2002)

Arwen IS an Elf!!I think she has still her Elf senses because she can't just loose them,right?


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## tyeruler (Apr 4, 2002)

Hanne is right......just b/c an elf gives up his/her immortality doesn't mean they just don't exsit as an elf any more. I believe she will continue to have her elvish qualities, but like I said before she will just die as humans do.


I am still unclear on what happened to her immortality....how did it just leave her??????


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## Hanne (Apr 4, 2002)

Good question,Tyeruler,I am curious for the answer!!


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## Rohansangel (Apr 4, 2002)

She married a mortal, so her immortality left her because she was bound to him by marraige. I don't understand, though, why he couldn't have become immortal and she remained?
But just because she was mortal, she didn't lose her elflike qualities, like pointy ears, that sort of thing. 

~The Angel of Rohan


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