# The Power of Gandalf



## Noldor_returned (Jan 7, 2006)

Somewhere in LOTR, UT or the Sil, it talks about what each of the Istari did. Gandalf had the most power, yet Saruman was Head of the Istari. What I am talking about is why.
When the Istari first arrived in Middle-Earth, Cirdan gave his ring to Gandalf, as he perceived that he had the most power (please no-one correct me on the actual terminology used or quote what Cirdan said). Later, when the White Council was formed, Galadriel wanted Gandalf to lead it. However Saruman did, and Gandalf continually referred to Saruman as the Head of his Order. Everyone, even Saruman, knew that Gandalf was the most powerful of all the Wizards. So was Gandalf too modest; if he had been in charge of the White Council instead of Saruman, would more have been accomplished, the same, or less?
Elsewhere it also says that during one of the meetings of the White Council, Gandalf wanted to drive the Necromancer from Mirkwood, but Saruman managed to persuade the others (except Galadriel) not to at that moment. Later, at the last Council, it was decided that the Necromancer was too strong, and he was defeated, although later returned as Sauron. When the Necromancer was forced out of Mirkwood, he had set up a kingdom for himself in Mordor, and he could achieve little more if he stayed in Mirkwood.
So, if Gandalf had headed the White Council, would Sauron have been unprepared to go to Mordor, and given the peoples of Middle-Earth more time to prepare? Because all throughout this time, he had been searching for the Ring from his stronghold of Mordor. The reason Saruman eventually decided to rid Mirkwood of Sauron was because he wanted the Ring for himself, and knew that Sauron would find it if he stayed there.

Earlier, I mentioned that Saruman knew that Gandalf was stronger than himself, and had begun to notice his interest in the Shire. This aroused Saruman into learning more of the Shire, and he eventually mocked Gandalf. When Gandalf learned of this, it says something along the lines of "and Gandalf laughed, for he saw that Saruman was afraid of him."

What I am asking here is a few things. Firstly, if Gandalf had led the White Council, would more have been accomplished by it, the same, or less? Next, I ask if the free peoples of Middle-Earth had benn aware of Sauron's growing strength, whether they would have put up more of a resistance, because they found the Ring or other reasons. Finally, out of interest, I ask who was on the White Council?

Sorry this is so long, but I didn't know how else to write it. Any queries as to what I mean just PM me, and nobody post the actual quotes. Thankyou


----------



## Snaga (Jan 7, 2006)

I won't go and find the Cirdan quote, since (a) you don't want to be corrected, and (b) I am too lazy. But I'm not sure he says Gandalf is more powerful exactly, but that his wisdom was deeper. I can't remember for sure. Anyway I think this comes down to Saruman's knowledge vs Gandalf's wisdom.

Gandalf I think also did not want to be burdened with leading the White Council. I think he wanted to be the mover behind the scenes, because he wanted to the Free People's of middle earth to act freely and of their own volition, not because they are led by a Power.


----------



## Thorondor_ (Jan 7, 2006)

> Earlier, I mentioned that Saruman knew that Gandalf was stronger than himself, and had begun to notice his interest in the Shire


Although Gandalf is reffered to in The Istari, UT, as the "greatest", at the council of Elrond, Gandalf (the Grey) does say that Saruman is the greatest of the order; and when he defies Saruman, that inprisoning him wouldnt be the lightest of matters, he admits his words are empty.

The other members of the council I know of, besides the Istari and Galadriel, are Elrond and Cirdan, as ringbearers.


----------



## Starbrow (Jan 7, 2006)

I figured that other powerful Elf lords like Glorfindel would also be a part of the White Council.


----------



## Noldor_returned (Jan 8, 2006)

Well there was at least Gandalf, Galadriel and Saruman on the White Council. I expect Radagast was too, but I doubt Glorfindel was. Elrond maybe, or possibly Cirdan.


----------



## Thorondor_ (Jan 8, 2006)

From the Silmarillion:


Of the rings of power and the Third Age said:


> But at length the Shadow returned and its power increased; and in that time was first made the Council of the Wise that is called the White Council, and therein were Elrond and Galadriel and Cirdan, and other lords of the Eldar, and with them were Mithrandir and Curunir


----------



## Walter (Jan 8, 2006)

Snaga said:


> I won't go and find the Cirdan quote, since (a) you don't want to be corrected, and (b) I am too lazy. But I'm not sure he says Gandalf is more powerful exactly, but that his wisdom was deeper. I can't remember for sure. Anyway I think this comes down to Saruman's knowledge vs Gandalf's wisdom.


Very much to the point, Orcling... 

To think, that it was about "power" is to miss the point, IMNSHO. Aside from what is stated in the essay in UT there's this jotting where Olórin declared he felt too weak for the task. And as it appears Gandalf wasn't even supposed to be powerful enough to outlive the balrog on his own...


----------



## Majimaune (Jan 10, 2006)

i think saruman was only more powerful in ways whereas gandalf had more wisdom

i think the reason that gandalf was not the head of the WC because of S will to presuaed the others to make him head of WC

and with the istari where gandalf the more powerful saruman looked and felt like the leader and so everyone called him so even the other istari did

on the white council there might have been and was Gandalf saruman gladrail elrond radagast? fred bob and a couple of others


----------



## elrilgalia (Jan 10, 2006)

There is always the thought that since Gandalf was Gandalf the Grey until the "War of the Ring" he was lesser in power than Saruman, who was Saruman the White

I always considered that until Gandalf was "reborn" as Gandalf the White he was lesser in power than Saruman

What I have wondered is, who appointed Saruman and made him White ?


----------



## Thorondor_ (Jan 10, 2006)

> What I have wondered is, who appointed Saruman and made him White ?


Curumo/Saruman was chosen by Aule, according to UT; the istari had their "nicknames" after the colour of their clothes.


----------



## Erestor Arcamen (Jan 11, 2006)

I think Saruman was more powerful the entire time, but he let his pride weaken him. Also, this is kinda off topic, but i just got done watching lotr the first two and i noticed that when Saruman and Gandalf are fighting and all, Saruman gets ahold of Gandalf's staff. so what I was thinking was that possibly, the Valar said that the istari couldnt use their power to dominate. When Saruman's staff was broken, Gandalf said somethin about how he still was able to use his words. But anyways back to the topic at hand, i think that Gandalf was more wise than Saruman. When Gandalf was sent back as Gandalf the White, he was simply Saruman as he should have been. I dont think he got more powerful. see what i said about the staffs and all ties into this. when Gandalf came back as the White, he had proven to the Valar that he was the one istari who was doing what he was actually sent to do. Not to dominate and rule Rohan, not to create his own ring, obtain the one ring and wield it, not to go off and get himself lost (wherever the blue ones and radagast went). Gandalf was the only istari who was actually doing his job, to thward the plans of Sauron by helping the people of Middle Earth. So the valar saw that Gandalf was the one fulfilling his task, and they gave him, as he became the White, full access to his powr as a maia. I think that when the Istari came, when they were in the form of men, they were stuck that way, and givin only limited power until they either finished their task, and/or went back to the West. But Gandalf proved he, if he had full abilities, would use them for what he was sent to do. kinda choppy but its hard to explain lol


----------



## Thorondor_ (Jan 11, 2006)

> So the valar saw that Gandalf was the one fulfilling his task, and they gave him, as he became the White, full access to his powr as a maia


I pretty much doubt it:


Letter#156 said:


> He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. 'Naked I was sent back - for a brief time, until my task is done'. Sent back by whom, and whence? *Not by the 'gods' *whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time'. Naked is alas! unclear. It was meant just literally, 'unclothed like a child' (not discarnate), and so ready to receive the white robes of the highest.


----------



## elrilgalia (Jan 12, 2006)

He was sent back by both the Vala and Galadriel. His task to aid the good people of Middle Earth in their attempt to destroy Sauron. Once this was completed his task was done, hence why he travelled overseas.

(yep I knew the colour was a nickname, but still a good symbol! I love the way in the films that Saruman's robes become "grubby" after Gandalf becomes Gandalf the White!)


----------



## Walter (Jan 12, 2006)

elrilgalia said:


> He was sent back by both the Vala and Galadriel.


Welcome to TTF elrigala! 

As you can see from the quote Thorondor provided in his previous post, Tolkien had a different interpretation...


----------



## Eledhwen (Jan 12, 2006)

I wonder if the knowledge that Gandalf was better equipped for leadership had a hand in Saruman's evil madness, like in the Hebrew story of David and Saul.

Saruman was, like Sauron, a smith. He also liked power. Given the history, why was he chosen to lead the Istari? Maybe, like the story of David and Saul, the true leader had to come into his own through adversity. In both stories, David/Gandalf refused to vanquish the fallen leader with violence; but a violent, ignominious end awaited them all the same.

I agree with Walter. Galadriel did not _send_ Gandalf back, but provided a halfway house afterwards for rest and recuperation (and clothing!).


----------



## elrilgalia (Jan 12, 2006)

yes, sorry I was mixing up ideas there

He was sent back by Eru to ME to complete his task, and where I was mixing my ideas up, is that it was Galadriel who clothed him in White.

Therefore perhaps it was _she_ who chose that he be Gandalf the White ? i.e flippantly, she could have clothed him in Orange


----------



## Erestor Arcamen (Jan 12, 2006)

> _originally posted by eledhwen:
> 
> _ Saruman was, like Sauron, a smith. He also liked power. Given the history, why was he chosen to lead the Istari?



well Saruman was chosen after Gandalf denied the offer. Remember in Ea, Gandalf didnt want to go to ME at all. And anyways Sauron was not always evil, he kinda i guess "grew" into it. He studied the lore of the rings, and the desire for power overtook him.


----------



## wizard2c (Jan 14, 2006)

Well I was going to post my comments here but it seems the evil powers have been working against me and deleted my comments twice already.

Perhaps I'll stop back and try again.

--------------------

PS: Never angst a Wizard!!!


----------



## Snaga (Jan 15, 2006)

I don't believe this was a case of Gandalf being the clear first choice, and then they turned to Saruman because he refused per se. I think it is more that, when the White Council was formed the elves naturally looked to the Maia who had been sent from Valinor for leadership. Saruman must have seemed the most convincing leader since Gandalf was reticent, and Radagast so... bird-brained!


----------



## Thorondor_ (Jan 15, 2006)

In The Istari, UT, it is said that:


> The first to come was one of noble mien and bearing, with raven hair, and a fair voice, and he was clad in white; great skill he had in works of hand, and he was regarded by well-nigh all, even by the Eldar, as the head of the Order
> 
> Saruman is said (e.g. by Gandalf himself) to have been the chief of the Istari - that is, _higher in Valinórean_ _stature_ than the others. Gandalf is evidently the next in the order.



And in the first note:
"In the The Two Towers III 8 it is said that Saruman was "accounted by many the chief of the Wizards," and at the Council of Elrond (The Fellowship of the Ring II 2) Gandalf explicitly stated this: "Saruman the White is the greatest of my order"".


----------



## Snaga (Jan 17, 2006)

Nonetheless it is notable that Olorin was nominated to go by Manwe himself, whereas Saruman was Aule's choice. Olorin was fearful of Sauron, and hoped this would excuse him, but Manwe said this was all the more reason why he should go.

There is an echo of this in Elrond's thoughts (see Council of Elrond) on the hobbits being as likely to succeed against Sauron as anyone, and asks 'Who of all the wise could forsee it?' The answer, maybe, was Gandalf. Or more accurately, there appears to have been a gradual realisation of it. You might think that Gandalf's growing understanding of that _estel_ might be found not in the powerful but those of truest heart, perhaps is also a realisation of why Manwe chose him over those of 'greater Valinorean stature'.


----------



## Erestor Arcamen (Jan 18, 2006)

you know, Gandalf could just be really modest, good guy that he is...


----------

