# Melkor's Mortality: Did They Have A Chance?



## Hammersmith (Mar 2, 2005)

Here's a question:

Did Feanor (or Fingolfin) have any real chance of defeating - or killing - Melkor?

Evidently Feanor didn't have a _chance_, per se, as he was killed before ever encountering Melkor in Middle Earth. However, Melkor made the assault on his father both to steal the Silmarils and to kill Feanor. Why did he do this if Feanor was no threat to his life? Moreover, if the Eldar could not physically kill him, why did he never issue forth from Angmar to offer them battle? Why was he fearful of Fingolfin during their duel?

In this instance of his actual fight with Fingolfin, where he was wounded. Especially the marring of his face, which is said never to have healed, and to have given him pain for all time. If he could (a.) be injured and (b.) not have a process for reversing and healing certain dire injuries, could he be stricken beyond recovery, or killed outright? Did he have a limit to the injuries he could sustain? Presumably since he could be cut, he could be cut _up_, right? So even if he could be injured and not killed, what would happen if he were ground to a fine powder?

We also have instances of Maiar being killed (such as Saruman - I cannot remember, but does Melian also die at some point in time?). I know Melkor was both Vala and the greatest of his kind, but we have proof of beings who are semi-divine, angels, demi-gods, whatever you wish to analogise them with, dying and being killed. Sauron and Gandalf are also defeated/fall, and spend time as insubstantial beings - Sauron suffers this twice, once in the fall of Numenor and again after Isildur's defeat of him. We also have the final fall, which is up for debate as to whether it "kills" him, or merely defeats him for a third time.

Again, during Melkor's fight with Fingolfin, he is described as being afraid, hiding in the dungeons before daring to actually assail his foe. In my mind, this means one of two things: (a.) that he was aware he *could* be killed, or (b.) that he himself did not know if he could be killed by mortal or even elven creatures.

Again, there is the interesting incident where Beren has Melkor at his mercy and removes a Silmaril. Perhaps he did not wish to test whether or not Melkor could be killed; he must have been rather nervous. I can't say I would have wanted to plunge a dagger into the neck of a sleeping god either. There is also in this scene the incident where he attempts to remove a second gem, and the blade breaks because that is not his fate. Doubtless his fate is also not to kill Melkor, so that raises the other question: is it fate also, or maybe Eru's will, that Melkor will not die?

A powerful argument is also Mandos' words, where he warns that the elves *cannot kill *Melkor. Even so, they come a damn sight closer than I would have thought possible, and probably closer than Mandos himself imagined. Was he speaking of probability (Nah! You'll never do it!) or as an actual fact (Sorry guys. He's got a force field)?

Finally, when the Vala actually storm Middle Earth, they cast him into the void, about as final a fate as Tolkien could dream up. Now, religious analogies aside, why did they not simply kill the smegger and be done with it? Was that power not granted to them? Did they not believe in the death penalty? Can that last question be applied to characters who destroy and entire nation?

I understand that I've answered the question on both sides of the argument. I'm hoping that we can either debate this or that someone with better literary knowledge than me can come up with definitive proof. Cheers!


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## Annaheru (Mar 2, 2005)

Well, here we go. . . 1st, Melkor was afraid because he had been defeated. The Sil tells us that after the destruction of Utumno he knew fear. As far as the ability to hurt Morgoth, is was only possible after he touched the Silmarils, that was when he lost the abiltiy to change form- in essence, he was 'trapped' in his body (another good reason for a Ainu to know fear). Moreover, he was slowly spending himself in acts of evil (see Sil). Saruman was 'killed', if you will, in a similar situation: he was trapped in his form as a man. I think evidence proves that Ainu can't 'die', as we define it, but if their body was destroyed: remember Luthien's threat to Sauron? She said she would force him to leave his body and flea back to Morgoth helpless. Saruman's spirit rose after he was killed (and the Valar rejected him because of his actions), Sauron rose out of the sea after Numenor. I think the actual destruction of their body would be crippling to an Ainu, simply because ot would be a dispersion of the power they were using to create it. Sauron needed the power of his Ring to create another form for himself, if he hadn't made the Ring I think the loss if his body would have left him little more than Saruman. In support of this is the description of his departure after the Ring's destruction. He rose in the form of a cloud and was blown away (very much like Saruman). 

From this I conclude that Morgoth could have had his body destroyed, after which he would have been nothing more that a spirit, evil but insignificant.


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## ASLAN THE GREAT (Mar 2, 2005)

I Think He Chould Do So


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## Maerbenn (Mar 3, 2005)

In an essay entitled ‘Notes on motives in the Silmarillion’ (published in HoMe X: _Morgoth’s Ring_), Tolkien wrote:


> The war was successful, and ruin was limited to the small (if beautiful) region of Beleriand. Morgoth was thus actually _made captive in physical form_, and in that form taken as a mere criminal to Aman and delivered to Námo Mandos as judge – and executioner. He was judged, and eventually taken out of the Blessed Realm and *executed: that is killed like one of the Incarnates*.


So I think he could be killed, because he was.


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## Hammersmith (Mar 3, 2005)

Thanks for the replies; especially that last one. I only remembered Melkor being _cast into _the void, like those three Kryptonians in that Superman film. Didn't know he was actually executed out there.


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## angnor (Mar 3, 2005)

I'm going to say no, Fingolfin or Feanor (much less Beren) could NOT kill Melkor. At least not in any permanent sense. We see Sauron destroyed several times, and each time he comes back and creates a new physical form for himself, although he does lose some of his innate power each time.

Or maybe he's a special case. We certainly don't see any balrogs re-forming after they die.

I think if Morgoth were struck a death blow, even by someone as great as Feanor or Fingolfin, he would survive. He would become incorporeal fo a while, and lose even more of his innate power, but he would survive to return.


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## Periharadan (Mar 3, 2005)

angnor said:


> Or maybe he's a special case. We certainly don't see any balrogs re-forming after they die.



*balrogs* are a special case : they put so much of their power into their form, making it their only weapon, that they can't reincarnate. I seem to remember reading about it somewhere... ( in the Sil.?)


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## Arvedui (Mar 9, 2005)

Remember that Morgoth not only spent his power by assuming bodily form, but also by infesting the Earth with his evil. So after he was hurt by Fingolfin, it dawned on him that he had actually spent so much of his power that he could be killed (That is: his bodily form could).
We also see this from the fact that he was unable to change form again. This would in my opinion mean that if his bodily form was destroyed, which Mandos sems to have done, he would remain a spirit that perhaps only could assume bodily form again after a very long time.

And this is probably also the reason that we never see Morgoth do some actual fighting after destroying Fingolfin.


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## angnor (Mar 9, 2005)

Arvedui, Maerbenn.
Well, I certainly can't argue too0 much with your logic. If he couldn't be killed, why fear fighting? I can still say it was to avoid a further loss of power that losing his physical form might do, but there's no evidence this is the case. And of course, he IS called a coward at some point. 

So I fall back to this at last and just say, it doesn't FEEL right to me that they might be able to kill him. It seems to me that there is some difference in what Mandos might accomplish with a chained and defeated Morgoth and what Feanor or Fingolfin might do to him in a war. Or even while he sleeps.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Mar 9, 2005)

Hammersmith said:


> Here's a question: Did Feanor (or Fingolfin) have any real chance of defeating - or killing - Melkor?



How can a fallen angel be killed?They have him locked and chained in the Void, even as we speak!

Barley


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## Ithrynluin (Mar 14, 2005)

angnor said:


> I think if Morgoth were struck a death blow, even by someone as great as Feanor or Fingolfin, he would survive. He would become incorporeal fo a while, and lose even more of his innate power, but he would survive to return.



That makes me wonder. The Valar executed Melkor, and he was made powerless and impotent for a very very long time. Yet, it is prophesied that Melkor would gradually (though still over an immense period of time) regather his scattered strength, and burst out of his prison in the fabled _Dagor Dagorath_ battle. Now, do you mean this very thing would happen had he been slain by Fingolfin or Fëanor (or any other, really), or do you mean Fingolfin's or Fëanor's death stroke at Melkor would have less of an impact for some reason?



Periharadan said:


> balrogs are a special case : they put so much of their power into their form, making it their only weapon, that they can't reincarnate. I seem to remember reading about it somewhere... ( in the Sil.?)



I don't quite remember reading that anywhere. I'd appreciate it, if you provided a quote, as I see no reason why Balrogs, who are also Maiar, would not be able to take a (at least) second shape upon themselves. Of course it could be, as angnor says, that Sauron could do it so many times because of his relative greatness.



Barliman Butterbur said:


> How can a fallen angel be killed?They have him locked and chained in the Void, even as we speak!



Melkor's _body_ was destroyed, his spirit licking its wounds in the Void.


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## Alcuin (Mar 14, 2005)

Before Mandos spoke his doom, before the Kinslaying, and even before the Noldor left Tirion, but after Fëanor and his sons swore their terrible Oath from which so much evil and grief befell, Tolkien writes


> But even as the trumpet sang and Fëanor issued from the gates of Tirion a messenger came at last from Manwë, saying: ‘Against the folly of Fëanor shall be set my counsel only. Go not forth! For the hour is evil, and your road leads to sorrow that ye do not foresee. No aid will the Valar lend you in this quest; but neither will they hinder you; for this ye shall know: as ye came hither freely, freely ye shall depart. But thou Fëanor Finwë’s son, by thine oath art exiled. The lies of Melkor thou shalt unlearn in bitterness. Vala he is, thou saist. Then thou hast sworn in vain, for none of the Valar canst thou overcome now or ever within the halls of Eä, not though Eru whom thou namest had made thee thrice greater than thou art.’ [_Silmarillion_, “The Flight of the Noldor”]


There are several references to the Prophecy of Mandos. (As opposed to the Doom of Mandos, ‘Tears unnumbered ye shall shed…’ on the plains of Araman as the Noldor fled Valinor; sometimes called the “Second Prophecy of Mandos” according the Doom the First Prophecy.) That predicted the Last Battle, or the Great Battle, or the Battle of the Gods, in Sindarin the _Dagor Dagorath_. (Some of these other battle-names are used for the battle at the end of the First Age, when Thangorodrim is overthrown, and for the war between the Valar and Morgoth when the Elves first awoke and Morgoth was first chained with Angainor.) It’s told in various versions in _The Shaping of Middle Earth_, in _Morgoth’s Ring_, and in _The War of the Jewels_, at least. The crux of the prophecy is that when Morgoth escapes with his evil minions through the Door of Night, he makes war upon the Valar in Valinor itself. (There is an auxiliary legend that Ar-Pharazôn and his Númenórean army, trapped for ages after their assault on Valinor, would fight on Morgoth’s side. Just imagine how bad those guys must smell!) Turin Turambar is supposed to reappear with his black sword (which broke under him when he committed suicide after his sister Níniel killed herself by leaping into the Cabed-en-Aras) and kill Morgoth once and for all on the plains of Valinor. The Good Guys win. Everybody lives happily ever after. The end.


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## Hammersmith (Mar 14, 2005)

Wow, that's some cool climax, Alcuin! I must read up about those. Interesting how Mandos' doom (for the sake of argument let's assume that he's not bending the truth at all) refers to Melkor's un-killable state in Ea, though not necessarily in Valinor...maybe?


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## Annaheru (Mar 15, 2005)

Remember Valinor has been withdrawn beyond the circle of the world. At a guess, one would think that it now only exists on a 'spiritual' plane, therefore what is now attacked is Morgoth's spirit rather than his body.?. (There are, of course, some other possibilities)


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## Arvedui (Mar 16, 2005)

I think that it is important to distinguish between Melkor's body and his spirit.

Melkor's spirit could not be destroyed by any of the Children (IMO), but as I said before, his bodily form could be destroyed.
One thing that complicate matters a bit is that a large part of Melkor's spirit is spent by infesting Arda with his malice. As a consequence (still IMO), Melkor cannot be totally destroyed without destroying Arda as well. Or at least Middle-earth, now that Valinor and Tol Eressëa is removed from the circles of the world.


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## Durin's Bane (Mar 21, 2005)

Corect me if i'm wrong, but after it all ends and the world is destroyed wouldn't all gather in the halls of Eru and make music for one last time? I mean the spirits of the elves survive after their death to wait for that time to come, the spirits of men also. So wouldn't the Valar also survive until the world's ending?


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## Ingwë (Mar 21, 2005)

Durin's Bane said:


> Corect me if i'm wrong, but after it all ends and the world is destroyed wouldn't all gather in the halls of Eru and make music for one last time? I mean the spirits of the elves survive after their death to wait for that time to come, the spirits of men also. So wouldn't the Valar also survive until the world's ending?


 
The elves aren`t mortal. They wait the end of the world. Their spirits survive after the death of their bodies. But the men... Well, my dead fellow-countryman, I think they don`t survive. If they survive they don`t wait the world`s end together with the elves.
I agree. I think the Valar survive until the end of the world. But Melkor is outside Ea. Did he survive? It isn`t said he die. Maybe he is waiting for the changing of the world


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