# Character vs Character. . .Fights. Merged threads. .. hlg



## Ragnarok (Jan 9, 2002)

Just go along with it, and add your own ideas.

...who would win, 

~Spider-Man or a Balrog?
~Tom Bombadil or a Balrog?
~A Dragon or 10 Balrogs?
~Frodo or Sam?
~Merry or Pippin?
~Gandalf or Elrond?
~Theoden or Denethor?
~Gandalf or Spider-Man?
~MegaMan or Spider-Man?
~Link or MegaMan?
~Link or Sauron?
~Sauron or Melkor?


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## Dain Ironfoot (Jan 9, 2002)

~bolrog
~bolrog
~10 bolrogs
~frodo
~merry
~Gandalf
~theoden
~Gandalf
~mega man
~mega man
~sauron
~melkor


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## Beorn (Jan 9, 2002)

Here's some:

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=574


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## Ragnarok (Jan 9, 2002)

Excuse my newbish for not searching for a post like this, hehe.


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## Nimrodel (Jan 10, 2002)

*Sorry Dain*

I have to disagree with you. I think Sam would kick Frodo's butt. He is much stronger, carries the heaviest load when travelling etc. Of course, he's so loyal to Frodo, perhaps that would be his downfall. I think Frodo would have to get him really mad first, maybe hit on his wife!


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## Legolam (Jan 14, 2002)

*Catfight!*

Come on people - biggest catfight in the history of ME ...

Eowyn vs Arwen

My money's on Eowyn!


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## Kit Baggins (Jan 14, 2002)

Yeah! Go Eowyn  !

~Kit


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## Mad Adski (Jan 14, 2002)

Oh that would be funky to watch! Hey hey!

Heres some more match ups:

Legalos vs. Robin Hood
Boromir vs. Faramir
Frodo vs. Biblo (When young)
Frodo vs. Willow (From No Neck Lucas LotR rip-off)
Gandelf vs. Merlin
Gandelf vs. Obi Wan Kenobi 
Aragorn vs. Han Solo (No weapons)
Smaug vs. Draco (Dragonheart)
Nine Riders vs. Magnificent Seven 

AND THE MAIN EVENT
The Followship of the Ring vs. 
The crew of the USS Enterprise (Original) 

Mad Adski.


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## GaladrielQueen (Jan 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Dain Ironfoot _
> *~bolrog
> ~bolrog
> *



BALROG... BALROG!!!


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## EverEve (Jan 14, 2002)

i have to agree with nimrondel......sma is a lot better of a fighter, but u neva kno, his loyalty mite cause sum problems


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## EverEve (Jan 21, 2002)

~balrog
~tom
~10 balrogs
~Frodo (sams loyalty to him wouldnt allow him to hurt frodo, despite the fact that he is a lot stronger than frodo)
~Merry
~Gandalf
~Theoden
~Gandalf
~Megaman
~Megaman
~Sauron
~Melkor


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## Dain Ironfoot (Jan 22, 2002)

im in the liking of this thread!!!!


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## Beleg Strongbow (Jan 23, 2002)

*Re: In a fight...*

...who would win, 

~Spider-Man or a Balrog?
Balrog
~Tom Bombadil or a Balrog?
Bombadil
~A Dragon or 10 Balrogs?
Balrog or Ancalgon
~Frodo or Sam?
Frodo
~Merry or Pippin?
Merry
~Gandalf or Elrond?
Gandalf
~Theoden or Denethor?
Denethor
~Gandalf or Spider-Man?
Gandalf
~MegaMan or Spider-Man?
Mega
~Link or MegaMan?
Mega
~Link or Sauron?
Sauron
~Sauron or Melkor? 
Melkor


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## Retrovertigo (Jan 23, 2002)

I'd like to see me vs the little girl who sang at the 2000 Olympics. I''d show *her* strawberry kisses..


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## Valar (Jan 23, 2002)

What about Legolas vs Glimli??


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## Beleg Strongbow (Jan 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Elwood _
> *I'd like to see me vs the little girl who sang at the 2000 Olympics. I''d show *her* strawberry kisses.. *




Yeah smack her head out that little Niki Webster . Bloody strawberry kisses , more like strawberry punches.


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## Harry_Potter (Jan 23, 2002)

but the real tough ones are;

gandalf vs yoda

aragorn vs the incredible hulk

boromir vs judge dredd

bombadil vs mum-ra

bilbo vs gerry springer

george W bush vs Uncle ozzy


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## korhall (Jan 24, 2002)

do all of those crack pipes ***Personal attack removed by ReadWryt and Member warned of First Strike***


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## Úlairi (Apr 5, 2002)

*Harry Potter vs Sauron!*

I'd love to see Sauron fight Harry Potter! Sauron would whip him but it would be a funny sight to see!


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## Taran (Apr 5, 2002)

Sauron:

*Now, we meet, boy. Prepare to be destroyed!!! HAHAHAAH!*

Harry:

*Uh uh! You can't touch me 'cause _I'm_ a hotshot wizard and I'm all that and besides, I have a scar on my forehead that...*

Sauron grips Harry about the throat.

*Ah, gasp! Uncle! UNCLE UNCLE UNCLE!!! WAAAAH!* 

Harry's squealing is apruptly ended.


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## Úlairi (Apr 5, 2002)

Couldn't agree more!


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## Kit Baggins (Apr 7, 2002)

Er, Sauron's an eyeball, isn't he? How could he throttle Harry?

[/nitpicking]

~Kit


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## Taran (Apr 7, 2002)

He uses the Force (Harry, _I_ am your father!!)


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## Sam_Gamgee (Apr 7, 2002)

I've got friends who are ahrry potter nuts and they say this Voldermont guy or somthign could whip Gandalf and i said yeah right anybody form LOTR could work harry and his childish friends i mean come on. and besides my friends said they feel alseep during the movie (FOTR) they dont even deserve to be honered with an answer


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## Úlairi (Apr 8, 2002)

Kit, you are mistaken. Sauron could take physical form in LotR.



> "There are four *fingers* on the Black *Hand*."



Those are the words of Gollum to Frodo proving that Sauron was in physical form at that time.


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## Istar (Apr 8, 2002)

Where are these friends of yours, Sam? I want to show them what Sauron would do to Harry. Personally.

Istar


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## Úlairi (Apr 9, 2002)

Sauron would simply step on Harry, he wouldn't even have to use his power.


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## Taran (Apr 9, 2002)

Good grief, Harry would crumple in a heap at the very sight of the Ered Lithui.


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## Úlairi (Apr 10, 2002)

Indefinitely.


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## Beleg Strongbow (Apr 14, 2002)

He wouldn't be able to witstand his terror.


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## Úlairi (Apr 14, 2002)

I think at the mention of Sauron's name, Harry would quiver and quail. Harry Potter vs Witch King? Now there's a toss up! LOL! 

"I have been sent by my master to slay you Harry," says the Witch-King.

Harry Potter runs away crying.


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## Eogthea (Apr 17, 2002)

How about Harry Potter vs any Nazgul

Nazgul come running up the road

Harry: "Aaah! I need a real wizard! Aaaah!"

Nazgul stabs Harry with Morgul blade.

The End


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## Istar (Apr 17, 2002)

What a wonderful story! And such a happy ending! Bonus points for bluntness.


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## CyberGhostface (Apr 17, 2002)

Who would fall asleep during FotR? It was a pretty tense movie, if you ask me.


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## Eogthea (Apr 17, 2002)

Oops, I forgot the surprise ending:

Harry turns into a wraith and serves the WitchKing for all eternity.

The End (Really, no more surprises)


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## Úlairi (Apr 17, 2002)

And a probable ending too.


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## Eomer Dinmention (Apr 26, 2002)

No no you wouldn't want that. All the little kids who love Harry Potter would start to cry. How can you all be so mean. I'm so disappointed at you. You should all be ashame.

HWat should really happen. Harry destroys the Nazguls easily. He then faces Sauron. And does one of those stupid spells on Sauron. Making Sauron destroyed. And as harry Potter is about to fall in love with Hermoine, Harry Potter;s parents come back. and there all happy. And as the movie is about to end. Sauron comes back to life. And destroys Hermoine and HP parents. Sauron and HP then duel. Sauron then blows HP up into pieces, HP 's head fall on the ground. And Sauron steps on it. In the end it shows Sauron destroying the whole Earth. And darkness rules everything. AAAAAhhh now the kids will like it lol

lol MMMMMMMMMUAAAAAAAAAAHHHAHHAHHAHHAH


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## Úlairi (Apr 26, 2002)

I like it King Eomer.


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## CyberGhostface (Apr 26, 2002)

Would someone please tell me why Harry Potter is treated like Osama Bin Laden here? 

And when did it become a 'little kiddies' book? I can see someone coming to that conclusion after seeing the movie, but the books? Book 3 deals with creatures that can suck the souls out of people, and Book 4 has someone chopping of his hand and a kid getting killed. 

Somehow I cannot see the "Leeetle beety" children reading it, as so many people say they are.


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## Eogthea (Apr 26, 2002)

Oh, please, Eomer! Making the little kids' hero into a servant of some of the powerful evil in the world would be great fun! Its highly realistic too. Maybe that'll be the ending of the last book... Sauron and Voldemort are the same person and all of the HP people fall under his dominion. LOL. Much fun, much fun. 

http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=725847&chapter=2
This has nothing to do with anything, but its my story so read it!!!!


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## Úlairi (Apr 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by CyberGhostFace_
> *Would someone please tell me why Harry Potter is treated like Osama Bin Laden here?*



That is easily answerable. We are putting Harry Potter down because it will never stand up to the greatest literary piece of the century, 'The Lord of the Rings'. The reason I treat HP as such is because of the fact that I think Rowling's a joke and she should try to get a job that would suit her a little better. She has copied Tolkien in many aspects, countless aspects. 



> _Originally posted by CyberGhostFace_
> *And when did it become a 'little kiddies' book? I can see someone coming to that conclusion after seeing the movie, but the books? Book 3 deals with creatures that can suck the souls out of people, and Book 4 has someone chopping of his hand and a kid getting killed.*



Surprisingly CyberGhostFace, I agree with you. I never made the statement that HP was a 'Young Children's Novel', in fact, it is quite the opposite.


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## Istar (Apr 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *
> 
> That is easily answerable. We are putting Harry Potter down because it will never stand up to the greatest literary piece of the century, 'The Lord of the Rings'. The reason I treat HP as such is because of the fact that I think Rowling's a joke and she should try to get a job that would suit her a little better. She has copied Tolkien in many aspects, countless aspects.*



Huzzah to that!


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## Úlairi (Apr 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Istar _
> *
> 
> Huzzah to that! *



Thankyou Istar.


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## Eomer Dinmention (Apr 27, 2002)

NO NO EOGTHEA. DID you not read. HP DIES HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHA.

Hey everyone did you think it was a Happy Ending. Because i don't think it was that good of an ending. Maybe that Sauron and Voldermort rules all of the land. AND AND don't forget KILLS Dumbledore hehehehehehehehe


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## Úlairi (Apr 27, 2002)

Dumbledore is a perfect example of your 'typical old fart'. He deserves to perish. If I may, King Eomer, may I change a few things in your brilliant ending? Valdemort replaces the Lord of the Nazgul and kills HP and Sauron kills Dumbledore.


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## CyberGhostface (Apr 27, 2002)

Nothing will stand up to the LotR, and if you are going to rip up various novels that are inspired by LotR then you are going to have a big chunk of novels to rip up.


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## Istar (Apr 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by CyberGhostface _
> *Nothing will stand up to the LotR*


True.



> _Originally posted by CyberGhostface _
> *and if you are going to rip up various novels that are inspired by LotR then you are going to have a big chunk of novels to rip up. *



False, we just rip on harry potter. Has anyone read Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, or anything like that? I heard they're pretty good.


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## CyberGhostface (Apr 27, 2002)

Although I have not yet read Dragonlance, I heard it was LotR clone.


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## Eogthea (Apr 27, 2002)

No, Eomer, my point is that killing HP is too easy! He should suffer in some way, and making the little "hero" the servant of one of the most evil powers that could possibly exist is perfect. Then he should find some way to die, after being forced to do something evil.


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## Úlairi (Apr 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by CyberGhostface _
> *Nothing will stand up to the LotR, and if you are going to rip up various novels that are inspired by LotR then you are going to have a big chunk of novels to rip up. *





> _Originally posted by CyberGhostface_
> *Nothing will stand up to the LotR...*





> _To quote the good Istar_
> *True.*





> _Originally posted by CyberGhostface_
> *...and if you are going to rip up various novels that are inspired by LotR then you are going to have a big chunk of novels to rip up.[/B*





> _To quote the good Istar again!_
> *True.*



But CyberGhostface, at least these novels are in some ways *original*.


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## Eomer Dinmention (Apr 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *Dumbledore is a perfect example of your 'typical old fart'. He deserves to perish. If I may, King Eomer, may I change a few things in your brilliant ending? Valdemort replaces the Lord of the Nazgul and kills HP and Sauron kills Dumbledore.  *



Very good you can put it in. 
Eogthea but you don't want HP to live. U want him dead quick, and clean


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## elvish-queen (Apr 28, 2002)

Ok, I've read HP, and I enjoyed it, but when I read LotR I realised HP just sits in its shadow.
And did you realise some names are so very close to LotR names? Ok, well, one's a king and one's a giant spider, but Aragorn and Aragog?? Come on, you could get more original than that!
And dumbledore is, I think, supposed to be somewhat like Gandalf, but he fell short of the mark. And Voldemort is supposed to be like Sauron, but he too fell short of that mark...
LOTR RULZ FOR EVER AND EVER!!
Plus, HP wizards don't have their own language!
TOLKIEN RULZ!!!


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## CyberGhostface (Apr 28, 2002)

If you are going to say HP is a ripoff because a giant spider and a warrior have similar names, then...

Oh, gee! A wizard and a dark sorceror! I bet Tolkien was the ONLY one who did THAT! 

Why do people keep on comparing LotR to HP? Whats the point?

How is Harry not original? They both have different plots and different styles. I can understand your points on slavery in the books (to a certain point) but how is Harry not original? LotR is about a group of people trying to destroy an evil ring, HP is about an adolescent wizard going to a boarding school.


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## Istar (Apr 28, 2002)

Hold on, Ulairi! I said many other novels that are inspired by LOTR are good! I'm sure many of the other modern fantasy novels are at least readable and at best very good. As soon as I finish _Silmarillion_, I'm going to try something Forgotten Realms. You seem to say that the only good fantasy ever published are the works of Tolkien. Nothing else is even good, never mind comparable.


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## Eogthea (Apr 28, 2002)

Other fantasy books are great - trust me, I read too many of them, but some steal from others. HP has disturbing resemblenses to LOTR, they are kind of thrown into an LOTR fan's face. Obviously, some people take it too far, but I've read HP and... well read the thread if you don't already know my opinion.
HP should have a slow death or at least suffer before it. My morbid mind in action.


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## Bilbo Baggins57 (Apr 28, 2002)

I'm with u there Sam_Gamgee. Hobbits are the coolest! It would be a funny fight 2 see, though I can't say it'd last very long. Anyone from LOTR could beat those kids in Harry Potter. Yeah, I fell asleep during the Harry Potter movie too. 



> "Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo", a star shines upon the hour of our meeting.


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## Úlairi (Apr 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Istar_
> *I said many other novels that are inspired by LOTR are good![/B}*


* 

I know.




Originally posted by Istar
I'm sure many of the other modern fantasy novels are at least readable and at best very good.

Click to expand...


I agree.




Originally posted by Istar
You seem to say that the only good fantasy ever published are the works of Tolkien.

Click to expand...





Originally posted by Ulairi
But CyberGhostface, at least these novels are in some ways original.

Click to expand...


No need to put words that were never in my mouth in my mouth for argument's sake Istar. I love fantasy as a whole. I thrive on it. I have much more than just Tolkien. I was not 'dousing' other fantasy books, just Rowling's joke books. 




Originally posted by CyberGhostface

similar names, then... 

Oh, gee! A wizard and a dark sorceror! I bet Tolkien was the ONLY one who did THAT! 

Why do people keep on comparing LotR to HP? Whats the point? 

How is Harry not original? They both have different plots and different styles. I can understand your points on slavery in the books (to a certain point) but how is Harry not original? LotR is about a group of people trying to destroy an evil ring, HP is about an adolescent wizard going to a boarding school.

Click to expand...


Give it up CyberGhostface, your beating a dead horse. Go and argue on a thread where we are discussing 'The Lord of the Rings' in general versus 'Harry Potter' (Rowling's joke book series), not in my thread where I have taken one specific character from LotR to fight another 'specific character' from Rowling's joke books.

Bub-bye.*


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## Istar (Apr 29, 2002)

Whoops, sorry Ulairi. I guess I misunderstood you.


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## CyberGhostface (Apr 29, 2002)

Beating a dead horse? No, I'm just standing up for a fantasy series I read.


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## Istar (Apr 29, 2002)

Yes you are, and you're not alone. We all have presented our arguments for why potter is or is not a good book. No one is getting anywhere fast. You can't convince us it is a good book with good values and you cannot seem to accept Rowling has copied from other sources (to a point, all modern fantasy has copied or been inspired by Tolkien in one way or another) and put the wrong ideas and values into her books simply because you like them, even if what I say is true (and it is).

This is not the correct thread for this conversation. This is for discussing the various methods of death, pain, and pointy impliments to be used by Sauron on harry. This conversation should really be in Harry Potter vs. Lord of the Rings. You know where that is. Feel free to reply to this message there. We'll know who you are. We've seen you there before.


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## Úlairi (Apr 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Istar _
> *Whoops, sorry Ulairi. I guess I misunderstood you. *



No problem Istar. As for what Istar said in his previous post, well, all I have to say that I couldn't agree more. However, I think it could have been said in a more 'forceful' way as CyberGhostFace doesn't know when to quit and can't concede defeat, even when he/she is wrong.


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## CyberGhostface (Apr 30, 2002)

It is your opinion that I am wrong. And it is my opinion you are wrong. We both have different opinions, that is the only 'right' answer.


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## Úlairi (May 1, 2002)

Maybe so.


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## I.am.Smeagol (May 22, 2002)

Okay. I enjoy HP, heheh. I mean, they are quick, easy, fun reads.
But,, I would love to see Harry turned into a wraith or somthing.
Whatever. Thats besides the point..

*Grin* These are the battles I would love to see.


(_Movie_)Frodo v Harry Hrmm, I wonder who would win this one.. Seriously..
Gandalf v Dumbledor
Ron v Sam
Hermione v Pip and Merry
Grima v Wormtail
Voldermort v Sauron

and lastly... 
Legolas v Doby the house Elf


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## Úlairi (May 22, 2002)

Hmmm...interesting.


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## Theoden (May 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Taran _
> *He uses the Force (Harry, I am your father!!)   *



     Funny! So funny!!!!


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## Eogthea (May 30, 2002)

Bad Smeagol! Bad! No Legolas vs. Doby! Bad! Bad green fetid creature!


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## Úlairi (May 31, 2002)

Humorous, I must say.


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## Elu Thingol (Jun 6, 2002)

Hmmm... After that battle I think Dobby would be looking rather like a pin cushion


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## Eogthea (Jun 6, 2002)

Lol. True, true. Quit funny too.


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## Úlairi (Jun 7, 2002)

"I'm a better wizard than you!" says Dumbledore.

"No, I'm better!" says Gandalf.

"I am!" says Dumbledore.

"Uh-uh! I am!" says Gandalf.

Dumbledore turns Gandalf into a frog. Gandalf gets mad and turns Dumbledore into a fly and then eats him.

"Who'e better now?" asks Gandalf.


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## ~Emerald Took~ (Jun 7, 2002)

HAHAHA lol! this is SOOOOOO funny!!!!


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## Úlairi (Jun 8, 2002)

Glad to see that you are enjoying it Emerald.


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## Eogthea (Jun 8, 2002)

GO GANDALF!


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## Lily from Bree (Jun 22, 2002)

Yes, if Gandalf can't beat Dumbledore, then we have something seriously wrong. And for the orginal idea, Harry would melt down like butter in the microwave at the sight of Sauron/Barad-dur.


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## Aranaug (Jun 26, 2002)

Fantasy Deathmatch
Harry Potter versus Middle Earth

HP vs Morgoth
The Fight: As soon as HP sees Morgoth, he falls to his knees and wets himself. Seeing this pathetic creature, Morgoth unleashes the might of Grond upon this worthless wretch.

HP vs Sauron
The Fight: Seeing Sauron, HP falls to his knees, wetting himself. At this point Sauron picks him up and drop kicks him into the fires of Mount Doom.

HP vs Smaug
The Aftermath: As Bilbo enters the halls of The Lonely Mountain and notices a pile of what he thinks is dust.

HP vs Durin's Bain
The Fight: As he's being hung to death by the Balrog's whip over the bridge of Khazad-Dum, HP last thoughts are, "Did that thing have wings?"

HP vs a Ringwraith
The Aftermath: "Lord Sauron, we have corrupted one who claims to be a wizard." 
"Bring him forth." The wraith has HP brought in. "This pathetic wretch, a wizard, ha!" He picks him up and drop kicks him into Mount Doom.
(For those of you who are counting, that's two American Footbal field goals for Sauron.)

HP vs an Orc
The Fight: It lasts two seconds and ends with shish kebobbed HP.

HP vs a Troll or Gollum
The Aftermath: Though he tasted like uncooked chicken, HP didn't give them salmonella.


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## Ecthelion (Jun 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by I.am.Smeagol _
> * and lastly...
> Legolas v Doby the house Elf *



Ok Doby is the best charcter in HP. It should have been all about him. No more ripping on Doby, Doby rules! 

Here is a good and unfair battle(just the way I like it )
A Stone Giant vs. Harry Potter
battle: The stone giant looks around for Harry Potter, he has to poop so he does so, HP is never seen again................

The real name of the first Harry Potter book: Harry Pothead and The Sorcerer's Stoned


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## Istar (Jun 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Nain Ironfoot _
> *Ok Doby is the best charcter in HP. It should have been all about him. No more ripping on Doby, Doby rules!
> *


Don't get me started on house elves again.


> _Originally posted by Nain Ironfoot _
> *The real name of the first Harry Potter book: Harry Pothead and The Sorcerer's Stoned *


True. Very, very true.


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## CyberGhostface (Jul 4, 2002)

Wasnt that taken from a Cracked/Mad parody???


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## Red Istar (Jan 29, 2005)

*Literature geek debate!*

Three of the mightiest wizards in literature are, IMHO, Gandalf, Ged (earthsea), and Prospero (Shakespeare's _The Tempest_). 

So, in the following categories:

Gandalf v. Prospero
Gandalf v. Ged
Ged v. Prospero

Who would you put your money on?

I would have included Merlin, but the accounts of his powers are too varied. In some stories he is merely a prophet; in others he raised Stonehenge up from the earth by himself.


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## Ceorl (Jan 31, 2005)

*Re: Literature geek debate!*

Gandalf : Very cool, fairly powerful although alot of his power seems to be abstract alot of his fame is due to his wisdom etc.

Prospero : Never really liked him, bit of a pompous git, I really don't know where you got good info on the extent of his powers, as I found the Tempest horribly inarticulate

Ged : My personal favourite in terms of a straight battle, near endless ablility

so then:

Gandalf vs. Prospero : Prospero doesn't stand a chance in this one, somehow I don't think the forces of nature are going to listen to him rather than Gandalf.

Gandalf vs Ged : Hmm, good battle, then again Ged just needs to ask around and find the name Olorin then he can turn him into a rock or something. Or I suppose he could just turn into a virulent conglomeration of later age diseases and land in Gandalf's bloodstream (Sword in the Stone anyone?)

Ged vs Prospero : he, he I see Ged playing around with Prospero here, just to show him what happens when you mess with a real wizard.

btw, has anyone read Caliban's Tale by Tad Williams, and is it any good? Supposedly it tells Caliban's story after the events of the Tempest(how long do copyright laws lsat anyway?)


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## Wolfshead (Feb 6, 2005)

*Re: Literature geek debate!*

Personally, my money'd be on Dumbledore, but he doesn't seem to be an option 

No idea who the other two are, so I'd say Gandalf...


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## Mike (Feb 17, 2005)

*Re: Literature geek debate!*

Where Dollben (From the Prydain Chronicles by Lloyd Alexander)? I think he should be up for the fight.

He'd kick all their asses.


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## 33Peregrin (Feb 19, 2005)

*Re: Literature geek debate!*

I say that the most difficult choice is between Ged and Gandalf.... it would be hard even to choose which of the two I even liked better.


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## Arthur_Vandelay (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: Literature geek debate!*

Any takers for Pug (from the Raymond E. Feist novels)?


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## chrysophalax (Apr 15, 2005)

*Re: Literature geek debate!*

I'd have to go with Gandalf. Coming back from the dead is a hard act to follow.


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## ingolmo (Apr 27, 2005)

*Re: Literature geek debate!*



Wolfshead said:


> Personally, my money'd be on Dumbledore, but he doesn't seem to be an option
> 
> No idea who the other two are, so I'd say Gandalf...



I COMPLETELY AGREE! 
Dumbledore would cream Gandalf and Ged, and I can't tell about Prospero, as I haven't read Tempest.  But then again, Dumbly-dore isn't in the options.
-Ingolmo


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## Starbrow (Apr 27, 2005)

*Re: Literature geek debate!*

I don't know Prospero well enough to comment on his fighting powers. 

At first I figured that Ged could defeat Gandalf, but then I remembered that Gandalf is a Maia and Ged is human, so know I'm not so sure. Could a human wizard beat a Maia? 

Both of them could trounce Dumbledore though. Dumbledore doesn't seem like the fighting type to me.


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## HLGStrider (Apr 29, 2005)

*Re: Literature geek debate!*

Ged is mortal. Prospero is mortal. Gandalf is immortal. That's the only way to lok at it.


Prospero is just a trickster, all his work turns to illusion and manipulation. No chance.
Ged has a chance, but in the end, Gandalf would just reincarnate and Ged would die of old age.


----------



## Arthur_Vandelay (May 1, 2005)

*Re: Literature geek debate!*



HLGStrider said:


> Ged is mortal. Prospero is mortal. Gandalf is immortal. That's the only way to lok at it.
> 
> 
> Prospero is just a trickster, all his work turns to illusion and manipulation. No chance.
> Ged has a chance, but in the end, Gandalf would just reincarnate and Ged would die of old age.



How often would Gandalf be able to re-incarnate?


----------



## Raithnait (May 2, 2005)

*Re: Literature geek debate!*

And, what if Ged found out Gandalf's true name? Would the physics/laws of nature and whatnot of Earthsea apply or those of Middle Earth? Would it be to each his own, so that Ged's true name would bind him, but Gandalf's wouldn't? I think most, if not all, of Ged's power comes from understanding the true names of things(though it has been a while since I reread it), but Gandalf's doesn't... 


I don't think Prospero would hold out for long against either Ged or Gandalf...


----------



## Gúthwinë (Jul 12, 2005)

Who would win??????

Legolas with his bow and White Knives OR Aragorn with his elven knife and Anduril the flame of the West?


----------



## aimer (Jul 13, 2005)

*Re: Aragorn Vs Legolas*

it really depends, obviously legolas will probably win long distance. u never know, but i hope it doesnt come to that


----------



## Gúthwinë (Jul 13, 2005)

*Re: Aragorn Vs Legolas*

Yea, Them Being very close in all. Hand to hand combat Aragorn would win and like you said legolas would win long distance.


----------



## Alatar (Jul 17, 2005)

*Re: Aragorn Vs Legolas*

This is not the right place for this thread, this forumis for RPG's only.
Anyway, like you said, it depends.


----------



## AraCelebEarwen (Jul 17, 2005)

*Re: Aragorn Vs Legolas*

I would truly hope that it would never happen, though it would be one good fight!  

What about this? Arwen vs Eowyn!?!    

CAT FIGHT!!!!!  hehe


----------



## Gúthwinë (Jul 18, 2005)

*Re: Aragorn Vs Legolas*

No offense to Arwen, but if she took on the Witch King of Angmar, WATCH OUT!! Lol


----------



## Firawyn (Oct 3, 2005)

*Re: Aragorn Vs Legolas*



AraCelebEarwen said:


> What about this? Arwen vs Eowyn!?!
> 
> CAT FIGHT!!!!!  hehe






Humph. Arwen could only fight in the movies. I hate PJ for that. Gurr!! Acording to the books, Eowyn would win before Arwen managed to pick her spoiled butt off her couch.


----------



## AraCelebEarwen (Oct 3, 2005)

*Re: Aragorn Vs Legolas*

And that's probebly why she was the one to get the guy... *snicker* He knew she wouldn't try galavanting around and getting herself killed just to 'prove her love' for a warrior.  

A knife to that pretty little throat and she wouldn't be whining anymore. I highly doubt that she would even have time to try _anything_!   

But I had to ask all the same.


----------



## Daranavo (Oct 3, 2005)

*Re: Aragorn Vs Legolas*

The witch kings arrogance killed him and little else. Having Aragorn fight nazgul with a blade in the movie was altogether embarrassing and very silly.


----------



## Firawyn (Oct 3, 2005)

*Re: Aragorn Vs Legolas*

I agree. It was stupidity. No 'man' couls kill him. He should have ran the other way when he realized it was a woman!


----------



## Ermundo (Oct 27, 2005)

*Sauron vs. Darth Vader and the Balrog vs. Yoda*

I just want to know who would win in a battle of these evil villains.


----------



## Maeglin (Oct 27, 2005)

*Re: Sauron vs. Darth Vader and the Balrog vs. Yoda*

Sauron would beat Vader, but thats only because Vader would beat him within an inch of his life and he'd fly off somewhere else (as is his wont) and wait until Vader dies of old age. 

Yoda would kill the Balrog, just because he's Yoda and nothing can beat him.


----------



## Ermundo (Oct 27, 2005)

*Re: Sauron vs. Darth Vader and the Balrog vs. Yoda*

I agree with you Maeglin that Sauron would win agains Darth Vader but the Balrog is the showstopper and nothing can stop him... since the Balrog is a mia and has control over all of Arda to an extent..


----------



## Ingwë (Oct 28, 2005)

*Re: Sauron vs. Darth Vader and the Balrog vs. Yoda*

I cannot vote because Sauron and Vader/ Yoda and the Balrog are totally different characters. Vader and Yoda use the Force, they don't live in Middle earth; Sauron and the Balrog are Maiar - angelic creatures. These are created by different authors. It is impossible to decide who's strongest. There is no base for comparing.


----------



## brookhollow (Nov 30, 2005)

*Re: Sauron vs. Darth Vader and the Balrog vs. Yoda*

Not to disagree but there could be a basis for comparison if you mortgoththe1, give us some parameters. If you were to say that "force has come to middle earth" for example that would help. Or if you were to say that the Balrog and Sauron take on some more "mortal charachteristics" for lack of a better term that might help. I can envision the Balrog in a battle before I can picture Sauron for some reason (Sauron is much more phantom-like in my mind).

I don't know who would win, but man would it be fun to watch (Im thinking a Vader-Balrog battle would be most entertaining...Im sure Anakin is a little shy around fire these days).

Fun to think about...


----------



## Eriol (Nov 30, 2005)

*Re: Sauron vs. Darth Vader and the Balrog vs. Yoda*

Sauron was beaten once by Elendil and Gil-Galad;

Gothmog -- the _Lord_ of Balrogs -- was beaten by Ecthelion;

(ok, you could say that both of these confrontations were tied, but that's not the main point!)

The main point is that Sauron and the Balrog can be beaten by "ordinary people" -- you don't have to be a Maia to defeat them in battle. 

That said, I'd say that Sauron would decimate Darth Vader . Heck, I think Elrond could defeat Darth Vader! Gandalf would beat Vader easily (I think), and he admitted that Sauron was stronger.

As for Yoda vs. the Balrog, I am less sure. I'd place my money on the Balrog, mostly because he can produce "area effects" (fire) which would be hard for Yoda to dodge. And I don't think the Balrog would be too impressed with the Force either; if Yoda had to beat him, he'd have to do it the old-fashioned way, slashing away. Perhaps Yoda could do it, he's a surprising little fellow .


----------



## brookhollow (Nov 30, 2005)

*Re: Sauron vs. Darth Vader and the Balrog vs. Yoda*

I thought about this off and on all night and I found this entertaining. The two I am most impressed with are Suaron and Yoda, nothing at all against Vader or the Balrog. As far as Vaders power, in the last movie the Emporer seemed fairly convinced that Vader would become more powerful than either himself or Yoda (whether or not he was accurate or if Anakin's burning sensation screwed that up is debateable). Suaron is just so..."otherworldly" in terms of combat, and it is extremley hard to think of any concievable way that he would lose. Anyways after all of that I just can't pick against the little green guy...I know Suaron has more powers, I know the Balrog is just down right nasty, I know that Vader might take it to him in a lightsaber duel...I just can't pick against Yoda. I mean come on...he's Yoda!


----------



## Gabba (Dec 1, 2005)

*Re: Sauron vs. Darth Vader and the Balrog vs. Yoda*

Sauron would win over Vader. Shure thing. But Yoda is an all time good guy and way to cool to loose!


----------



## Ermundo (Dec 1, 2005)

*Re: Sauron vs. Darth Vader and the Balrog vs. Yoda*

I was mad that Sauron lost his ring in the Fellowship of the rings. I mean Sauron looked really cool and stuff with his spiky helm and chucking 10 to 20 men at a time while singing "Jingle Bells Jingle Bells Jingle Bells rock". (Ok I made that up ) I just wished Sauron could have stayed longer in the Fellowship

Anyway

Since there needs to be a basis of comparing lets say that for Sauron vs Darth Vader Sauron is with the ring and Darth Vader can use the force. Same goes with Yoda and I'm pretty sure I don't need to say anything about the Balrog


----------



## Erestor Arcamen (Dec 2, 2005)

*Re: Sauron vs. Darth Vader and the Balrog vs. Yoda*

balrog would kick yoda's ass, i mean Yoda's fast and all, but that whip is pretty big and if yoda'd try to block that, he'd be fried! Vader has no chance, he'd stand there using the force and Sauron would swing his mace thingy and whack him away 200 feet.


----------



## brookhollow (Dec 3, 2005)

*Re: Sauron vs. Darth Vader and the Balrog vs. Yoda*

Now if Sauron stays with his spikey-helmeted Fellowship self, I think the battle between him and Vader could be more interesting. Don't forget about the light sabers they can cut through virtually anything (unless Sauron is virtually a god and can change the nature of the matter of his mace or whatever weapon he chooses...and if he is that powerful, which he might be, then its going to take a lot more than Vader to take him down). Brute strength isnt neccesary to win a battle, Vader is pretty quick (at least when the movie is made with modern computer animation) and I think with a lightsaber he could be a force to be reckoned with.

Balrog and Yoda again...I really, really want to see this one on a movie screen someday. The storyline would completley blow, but you gotta admit the action would be pretty sweet. At first I would give the edge to the Balrog because well...he's a Balrog. He's got the whip (Im a bit rusty, he has a sword too right?), he's huge, he's nasty, and on top of all that he's on fire!!! But once again, Yoda has incredible speed, patience, and wisdom. If Gandalf could take him out, I think Yoda has a fighting chance. I dont think the the lightsaber would be quite as effective against the Balrog though. Still, Yoda has more than enough tricks up his sleeve, and I'm sure he's killed his fair share of galactic monsters. And of course the greatest argument of all is...he's Yoda.

I think I am spending way too much time thinking about this...


----------



## brookhollow (Dec 3, 2005)

*Re: Sauron vs. Darth Vader and the Balrog vs. Yoda*

Oh yeah one more thing...even with the ring Sauron still got whacked by Isildur (albiet with a host of 4 billion elves and men and other warriors). He can be beaten by mortals, so I think in that realm, Vader could have more of a chance than I might have originally given him credit for (on a side note isnt it a shame that we never get to see a Darth Vader - Yoda duel).


----------



## Fugitive1992 (Dec 3, 2005)

*Re: Sauron vs. Darth Vader and the Balrog vs. Yoda*

Yoda would would kick the balrog's sorry lil' butt. He's mean, green, 800 year old force fighting mechine. go Yoda


----------



## Corvis (Dec 4, 2005)

*Re: Aragorn Vs Legolas*



AraCelebEarwen said:


> I would truly hope that it would never happen, though it would be one good fight!
> 
> What about this? Arwen vs Eowyn!?!
> 
> CAT FIGHT!!!!!  hehe


 
Sure, Eowyn would probably win that fight but I'd bet then that Arwen's immortal and all powerful father Elrond would bring him and his armies to Rohan and slaughter the whole place. Just something to think about.


----------



## Wolfshead (Dec 4, 2005)

*Re: Aragorn Vs Legolas*

A fight between Aragorn and Legolas? I would have to say Aragorn, because he's cool and Legolas is just a poncy elf who can't even grow a beard


----------



## Corvis (Dec 4, 2005)

*Re: Aragorn Vs Legolas*

I would have to say that Aragorn would win because I think he's smarter than Legolas. And by so he would hide behind a tree or boulder or something and wait for Legolas to use up all his arrows or he would block some with his sword. Then he would run up and kill Legolas because he's a better swordsman than he is.


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## Starbrow (Dec 9, 2005)

*Re: Sauron vs. Darth Vader and the Balrog vs. Yoda*

You got that right Fugitive1992. And I think Sauron could easily get rid of Darth Vader.


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## Fugitive1992 (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: Sauron vs. Darth Vader and the Balrog vs. Yoda*

Absulutly. Seeing how " No Man can kill me" says Sauron


----------



## Erestor Arcamen (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: Sauron vs. Darth Vader and the Balrog vs. Yoda*

actually, the Witch King said "Fool, no man can kill me, now die" or somethin like that


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## Fugitive1992 (Dec 11, 2005)

*Re: Sauron vs. Darth Vader and the Balrog vs. Yoda*

sorry. I haven't seen that movie in awhile


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## brookhollow (Dec 11, 2005)

*Re: Sauron vs. Darth Vader and the Balrog vs. Yoda*

"No man can kill me." Its probably true, but doesnt that sound like something that every bad guy from every movie or book either says or thinks at some point? And a similar phrase is also uttered about Witch-King, and you see how far that got him...


----------



## Búrzghâsh (Dec 11, 2005)

*Re: Sauron vs. Darth Vader and the Balrog vs. Yoda*

Well this is how i put it down. It really depends on which Darth Vader you are talking about. Human vader or cyborg vader. Cyborg vader would get his ass kicked because he is extremely slow. Human vader would probably beat sauron because of the fact that he could force the ring off of sauron or cut it off. BUT If this were to happen Human vader would be overcome by the power of the ring. Which at this point yoda would kill the power consumed vader and throw the ring in the fires of mount doom there fore killing Sauron. But this is assuming that it is a 1v1v1v1 and not a 1v1 and another 1v1. If yoda did not get involved sauron would eventually get his ring back and kill the withered darth vader. So pretty much Anakin is dead no matter hhow you spread it. Yoda vs Balrog? Yoda is definetly amzing and could probably lift the balrog and throw him into hell. You can see that he can lift several tons in Episodes 1 and 2. But putting that aside yoda could cut the whip in half using his light saber as well as the sword and then hop aroound the balrog and peg him with a light saber throw.


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## brookhollow (Dec 12, 2005)

*Re: Sauron vs. Darth Vader and the Balrog vs. Yoda*

Do you think that cyborg Vader is really slow, or just that movie tech wasnt up to speed with the way Lucas wanted Vader? I think the latter. Watch the duel between Obi-Wan and Vader in A New Hope...it's almost painful to watch after viewing the new trilogy (don't get me wrong Im a huge fan of the original, but I gotta give credit where credit is due). Movie allowed Count Dooku who looks old as the hills to be very fast. I think if Lucas were to recast his vision of the original trilogy, Vader would be a good deal faster than in the original. 

By the way, does anyone else find it cool that Christopher Lee plays a powerful villain in both Star Wars and Lord of the Rings?


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## Fugitive1992 (Dec 13, 2005)

*Re: Sauron vs. Darth Vader and the Balrog vs. Yoda*

I think it's awsome! He plays Saurman, Count Doocu, and some (really long evil name) evil guy in a James Bond movie, The Golden Gun. I love that guy.......as an actor


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## brookhollow (Dec 14, 2005)

*Re: Sauron vs. Darth Vader and the Balrog vs. Yoda*

Hang on, he was in a James Bond flick? How did I miss that? Oh, he was also Count Dracula at some point (not in the original black and white one, but some other old one). Pretty crazy...


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## Fugitive1992 (Dec 14, 2005)

*Re: Sauron vs. Darth Vader and the Balrog vs. Yoda*

He has also starred as Sherlock Holmes and the villainous Scaramanga in the James Bond movie The Man with the Golden Gun. More recently he was seen in the BBC adaptation of Gormenghast.

Christopher Lee, played Count Dracula no less than nine times in the cinema. He has also portrayed Frankenstein's monster, the Mummy, Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, and Fu Manchu.
*DRACULA *

Christopher Lee


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## Ermundo (Dec 14, 2005)

*Re: Sauron vs. Darth Vader and the Balrog vs. Yoda*

Listen people of the Book!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So far

Yoda is whop-de-dop-doping the Balrog's rear end

OH MY GOSH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

...


Err, anyway 

Mr.Sauron is coming in a boxing lil Anne like a sock with Sauron (OH MY GOSH!!!!!!) have TWO VOTES!



You guys should know that Balrogs are extremely powerful.. So powerful that 7 of them alone whiped out all of Gondolin (OH MY GOSH). A Balrogs speed was far greater than that of Yoda. Balrogs could travel as fast as fire and that is really fast.


Based on their descriptions the Balrog should be whup de duping Yoda and Sauron should be getting kinda ticked that he doesn't have Anne the snob's head on his wall.


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## Fugitive1992 (Dec 14, 2005)

*Re: Sauron vs. Darth Vader and the Balrog vs. Yoda*

yeah. so. Yoda has lightningbolts shoting out of his finger tips. Lightning is faster then fire....right????


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## brookhollow (Dec 14, 2005)

*Re: Sauron vs. Darth Vader and the Balrog vs. Yoda*

To my knowledge Yoda can't shoot lightning from his fingertips. That is a power that only the Sith have access to (Im not making this up, I read it on the starwars website). I suppose Yoda's knowledge and control over the Force allows him to deflect or "deal with" force lightning when Sith use it against him, but he can't actually zap someone himself. All that being said, he's really fast. And if the Balrog is so fast, how come the entire Fellowship practically outran him in Moria (at least to the bridge)? I dont know if Yoda would win or not, but I just cant vote against him. He's so small, and green, and uses such broken English. That alone makes him purely unstoppable...


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## Fugitive1992 (Dec 14, 2005)

*Re: Sauron vs. Darth Vader and the Balrog vs. Yoda*

but Yoda zape Dooku in Attack of the Clones. Didn't he.


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## brookhollow (Dec 15, 2005)

*Re: Sauron vs. Darth Vader and the Balrog vs. Yoda*

I think Dooku zapped Yoda, but Yoda in his crazy green ways, just blocked it back it him. Maybe that's kind of like how other Jedi block laser fire back at whoever is shooting them. Anyways, I'm no expert, thats just what Ive read and what has been told to me by people with more time than I have. Nice choice of verses by the way.


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## Ermundo (Dec 15, 2005)

*Re: Sauron vs. Darth Vader and the Balrog vs. Yoda*



brookhollow said:


> And if the Balrog is so fast, how come the entire Fellowship practically outran him in Moria (at least to the bridge)?


 
Brockhollow

The Balrog IS fast, but only when he absolutely sees a need. I mean, put yourself in the Balrog's shoes (ummmmmm, just imagine yourself the Balrog).
If you are a super duper powerful demigod (or mia) ENHANCED with Morgoth's power, making you even more powerful, then who would want to waste their enery trying to chase a group of old geysers.

What I'm saying is..

Maybe the Balrog just didn't want to beat the fellowship to the Bridge. Even if the Balrog was last to make it to the bridge, that doesn't mean that the Balrog is slow! I mean, saying such a thing would be dum without proff


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## Fugitive1992 (Dec 15, 2005)

*Re: Sauron vs. Darth Vader and the Balrog vs. Yoda*

Aahhhhhh. i see where you're comin' from. 
so the Balrog was just doing the whole ' Fee-fhy-fo-fom ' thing, right?


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## Ermundo (Dec 16, 2005)

*Re: Sauron vs. Darth Vader and the Balrog vs. Yoda*



Fugitive1992 said:


> Aahhhhhh. i see where you're comin' from.
> so the Balrog was just doing the whole ' Fee-fhy-fo-fom ' thing, right?


 
Yes!!!

People, we need you all to vote on the pole. This is a debate (but a fun debate )


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## brookhollow (Dec 16, 2005)

*Re: Sauron vs. Darth Vader and the Balrog vs. Yoda*

Okay fair enough. Balrog could be playing cat and mouse with the fellowship. But could that in itself be a weakness? In his pride and confidence he toys with them instead of finishing them off, a mistake he could make against Yoda.

I have to agree, its a fun debate!


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## Ermundo (Dec 17, 2005)

*Re: Sauron vs. Darth Vader and the Balrog vs. Yoda*



brookhollow said:


> Okay fair enough. Balrog could be playing cat and mouse with the fellowship. But could that in itself be a weakness? In his pride and confidence he toys with them instead of finishing them off, a mistake he could make against Yoda.


It might be a weakness indeed but than again just because the Balrog decided he wanted to go "Fe Fi Fo Fum" doesn't mean it could have been a weakness. I mean, the Fellowship would have come to the bridge along with the Balrog eventually and so it was inevitable for Gandalf and the Balrog to fight.

Anyway, the Balrog can travel as fast as fire and that is pretty wicked fast! And anyway, Yoda wouldn't be able to touch the Balrog since our good friend, if you don't know, IS ON FIRE. It's said somewhere in the Silmarillion that the Balrog's fire could melt stone on contact. And anyway, I pretty sure that the Balrog would have a kind of resistance to the force being a miar.


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## Majimaune (Jan 5, 2006)

*Re: Aragorn Vs Legolas*

ditto to yours wolfshead but legolas is deadly with his arrows so if it came to long range corvis legolas would probly win


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## Noldor_returned (Jan 5, 2006)

*Re: Aragorn Vs Legolas*

Like everyone else, hope it never happens. But Gandalf would win *rubs eyes* Sorry, I can't read. 
Aragorn has more strength, Legolas has more stamina. Legolas is a better bowman, although Aragorn would win with a sword. So the results are:
Short fight (20 mins max): Aragorn
Long fight (30mins +): Legolas
Fight with Bow and Arrows: Legolas
Sword fight: Aragorn
Fist fight: Aragorn

So the results are in, Aragorn wins 3/5 fights. However...
if it was a race, everything changes.

Can a poll be added to this thread Warrior93??? Please???


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## Niirewen (Jan 5, 2006)

*Re: Aragorn Vs Legolas*



Corvis said:


> I would have to say that Aragorn would win because I think he's smarter than Legolas. And by so he would hide behind a tree or boulder or something and wait for Legolas to use up all his arrows or he would block some with his sword. Then he would run up and kill Legolas because he's a better swordsman than he is.


How imaginative. Legolas and Aragorn fighting each other is rather difficult to picture.. but I think Aragorn would win.. not for any particular reason. If it were between Arwen and Eowyn, then of course Eowyn would win! Even though Arwen's an elf.. Eowyn knows how to fight.


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## Majimaune (Jan 6, 2006)

*Re: Aragorn Vs Legolas*

great idea about the poll nr

Can a poll be added to this thread Warrior93??? Please???[/quote]


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## Gil-Galad 2.0 (Jul 20, 2006)

*Who would win in a fight*

Hey, this really has nothing to do with much but I was just wondering, who would win in a fight Aragorn or Boromir. Its not very important but I was just wondering.


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## AraCelebEarwen (Jul 20, 2006)

*Re: Who would win in a fight*

Interesting question. So much so in fact, that you're not really the first to think of something very much like it... 

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?t=17770

I would have to say... erm... Are we talking hand to hand or do they have some paces before they clash 'cus that could make or brake it. Bows and swords an' all ya know. It would still be hard to say.

_Go Aragorn!!!_  =^.^= Although Boromir does have a few good points... hehehe *runs away*


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## Ermundo (Jul 22, 2006)

*Re: Superman vs Gandalf*

New one:



Superman vs Gandalf





Personally, my money's going with Gandalf. I mean, sure Superman had superhuman speed, has x-ray vision, superhuman strenghth, and a heck lot more, Gandalf's a divine guy, not to mention immortal. Eventually Gandalf's divinity would clean the floor with superman.


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## Fugitive1992 (Jul 22, 2006)

whoa whoa whoa.....Superman hands down. what the heck are you tlking about. SM is Immorrtal to. remember. in one of the movies he goes to is "mother" to ask if she could take his powers away and live as an ordinary man. because of that he immortality was taken as well. so my bet is on Superman.


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## Majimaune (Jul 23, 2006)

I'm a bit undecided on that matter but I think Superman. Reasons:

Superman is only vunerable to kriptonite. 
Gandalf only has limited strength to do his magic with. 
Gandalf has never heard of kriptonite. 
Superman has some pretty cool powers so he should win.
 Thats about all I can think of.


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## Fugitive1992 (Jul 23, 2006)

Boo-ya! that's what I\m talking about!


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## Ermundo (Jul 23, 2006)

Superman is not only weak to kryptonite, but to magic as well. Superman fought many magicians before with a great amount of difficulty. And remember, Gandalf isn't just an old magician with a wooden stick, he's a mia, a divine being, a demigod eccentialy. In the end, when Superman and Gandalf collided, the impact would destroy the world problably. But Gandalf's divine power would overpower Superman, no matter what. It's not who you WANT to win, It's who, based on FACTS, will most problably win.


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## Persephone (Jul 23, 2006)

morgoththe1 said:


> Superman is not only weak to kryptonite, but to magic as well. Superman fought many magicians before with a great amount of difficulty. And remember, Gandalf isn't just an old magician with a wooden stick, he's a mia, a divine being, a demigod eccentialy. In the end, when Superman and Gandalf collided, the impact would destroy the world problably. But Gandalf's divine power would overpower Superman, no matter what. It's not who you WANT to win, It's who, based on FACTS, will most problably win.


 
wOAH! Talk about linking worlds! 

Your view of this scenario is based on the fact that Superman and Gandalf would want to fight each other though. Because based on "facts", both boys are known to be rational and though they may have supernatural powers they don't use it when it's not needed.


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## Majimaune (Jul 24, 2006)

Narya said:


> Your view of this scenario is based on the fact that Superman and Gandalf would want to fight each other though.


 I think you have a point there. Why would they want to fight each other (thats what I interpreted your point to be). But thats not the point of this thread really. It's to try to determain who would win. As I said I'm still undesided but am leaning towards SM over Gandalf.



morgoththe1 said:


> In the end, when Superman and Gandalf collided, the impact would destroy the world problably.


Your probably right about that.


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## Durin's Bane (Jul 24, 2006)

Actually Superman has inhuman powers- flying, laser eyes and stuff, yet he is human, or sort of... while Gandalf... isn't. So in a battle aganst Gandalf... most are loosers.


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## YayGollum (Jul 24, 2006)

Some of you people make no sense! It is actually pretty achingly terrifying. Superman would easily win, even though he never uses his powers the ways that I would. Sure, the evil torturer Gandalf is a lot smarter and has some magic, but he had nowhere close to enough power to destroy a planet. He was easily overpowered by Sauron, who couldn't even kill a bunch of Numenoreans. Superman could easily kill a bunch of Numenoreans.


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## Ermundo (Jul 24, 2006)

Have you read the Sil mate? The Ainur together created the entire COSMOS! using their power, until at last they created an adobe for themselves, Arda! You guys are so severely underating Gandalf , I mean c'mon. 

Remember what I said before, it's not who YOU want to win but who will most problably win based on hard facts. Superman does have Cosmic powers, I'll admit. But Gandalf's DIVINE. The only reason Gandalf lookes so weak compared to Sauron is because the Valar specifically banned him from using his powers. And the only reason Sauron couldn't kill a bunch of Numenoreans is because it wasn't exactly high on his list of things to do since HIS BODY WAS GONE!!! 

In the end, like I said before, the impact between those two would problably be so immense it will wipe out the entire globe. But, Gandalf's divine might will eventually overcome and outdo Superman. For even though Gandalf doesn't display the awesome moves and youth that is associated with Superman, he does have a hell lot more power than people think. Gandalf's almost a god (lucky man), and superman is well... not. And if you don't believe me, read the Sil. 


Also, apparently I am not the first person to have touched on this topic. If you go  here  to howstuffworks, there's an entire page devoted to this topic. It touches on other reasons that Gandalf'll win that I have not posted


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## YayGollum (Jul 25, 2006)

For some reason, that little link thing of yours doesn't work. At least for me. oh well. Anyways, maybe some of the reasons on that other page would help to convince me, because I have read every Tolkien type thing besides those letters and a few of those History Of Middle Earth books, which I can't find. 

First of all, am I wrong for believing that the Eru dude was the one who created everything, and he just used the ideas that the Ainur types came up with? Or, even if they did create everything, there were a lot of them. I can't tell exactly how much just the evil torturer Gandalf is capable of creating out of nothingness. 

Also, he still gets tired and weak and drained and stuff. All magical types got achingly pathetic, after a while, and the evil torturer Gandalf is not in his prime. Sure, he got that little upgrade, but he's still just a vulnerable to death as your average old man, which is very unlike Superman. Just because he was ordered to attempt to work behind the scenes and not save the day all of the time with creepy and evil and unfair powerses, doesn't mean that he also turned off some amazing durability powers. Laser vision or a good kick to the head from Superman will kill him easily. What does the evil torturer Gandalf have? You mentioned that Superman is vulnerable to magic. I haven't seen anything close to Superman-threatening coming from the evil torturer Gandalf. Sure, Yay for wild speculations, but proof is better.

As to that bit about Sauron, hm? I read nothing about Sauron not having a body while he was being easily defeated by the Numenorean army. I read that the Numenorean army went up against whatever army that Sauron dude had at the time, the more popularly seen as evil types were obviously outnumbered, so Sauron, since he figured that he had no chance of winning, surrendered. Superman would be invulnerable to any attacks they threw at him and had plenty of stamina to kill them all.

I see no evidence that a fight between Superman and the evil torturer Gandalf could destroy the world, though. That huge fight between Ainur types that knocked off a large chunk of Middle Earth, which I was led to believe was pretty achingly serious, didn't come close to destroying the world. I am less certain of Superman's abilities, though. He has always had the strength of plot.


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## Ermundo (Jul 25, 2006)

YayGollum said:


> For some reason, that little link thing of yours doesn't work.


If the link doesn't work, than go to http://www.entertainment.howstuffworks.com/superman-vs2.htm
Now READ it.



YayGollum said:


> First of all, am I wrong for believing that the Eru dude was the one who created everything, and he just used the ideas that the Ainur came up with? Or, even if they did create everything, there were a lot of them.


Ok, let me clarify. The Ainur created these great themes of music that would mold the universe. Eru showed a vision of the the Universe to the Ainur and they all descended into the physical realm, in which they created EVERYTHING physical and ALL the forces. Aluin created Time, for example. Sure, there may have been a lot of them, but weren't there a lot of Kryptonians to, and you saw what Superman can do. 

Remember, the Universe is BIG. There are billions of billions of stars out there not to mention a whole lotta other stuff we haven't discovered yet. Just because Gandalf was among a lotta guys and gals that created it, it wasn't a whole lot. It was certainly less than the amount of men there were. I'd think Gandalf be pretty impressive.



Yagollum said:


> Also, he got tired and weak and drained and stuff. All magical types got achingly pathetic, after a while, and the evil torturer Gandalf is not in his prime. Sure, he got a little upgrade, but he's still just as vulnerable to death as your average old man



OK, I don't know where you got that idea but it's so false. If Gandalf WAS as vulnerable as your old man, how can you explain when Gandalf took out a whole army of goblins in the mines of Moria, broke a solid stone bridge, fell down a huge chasm for 3 days on fire, crashed into an underground pool, went from the base of Middle Earth to the top of the tallest mountain, still managed to defeat a Balrog, all the while still being able to make such awesome fireworks. And that was all with the limitation of having the body of an old man. My point is, Gandalf ISN'T just an old man with a stick, just like the Balrog isn't just a guy that had been taking steroids that caught his back on fire. They are mia, the equavilant of demigods. Gandalf is limitated by having tooken the form of a frail old man so he can't even come close to using his powers to their full potential.




YayGollum said:


> Yay for wild speculations



Magic is the new Kryptonite mate(in some ways). Superman can't defend himself from it, and it affects him greatly. You want proof, follow the link I posted above. The information they give comes directly from DC Comics.

The only one making speculations is you. You are severely underating Gandalf to the point I doubt you've even read the Sil. Give me a reason or some proof to believe that Gandalf is an old man with a stick. I could give a hell lotta more reasons that Gandalf isn't. Like I said before, Gandalf's power is different from Superman's. His power is divine. It's the power that created the universe, mate. And it's more potent, more powerful. Superman does have more visually stunning powers and the youthful appearance to support, but Gandalf's the guy who wouldn't use his powers, until the last moment. And when he did, you better watch out.

And lastly, because I am getting tired of typing, I going to wrap up with why Sauron didn't kill the Numenoreans. Forgive me Yay, but I thought you meant when Numenor was sunk. Anyway, Sauron's a manipulater, not a brute strenght sorta guy. Remember, you are talking about time after Sauron had made his ring. The dude, (I don't know why) left his ring in Baradur, when he went to Numenor. As you know, Sauron had only a fraction of his strenght without it. It wasn't enough to wipe out the entire army of Numenorians single handedly. And remember what I said, the guy's a wacked up manipulator. That was his plan in destroying Numenor. Not to wipe it all out by brute strenghth (which he couldn't do in his present state), but to sway the king into doing something stupid, which in the end Sauron did. It was a smarter and much more satisfying choice, at least that was how Sauron viewed. So in the long run, the dark lord of mordor did defeat the Numenoreans, just in a different way than wiping them out there and then.


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## Ermundo (Jul 25, 2006)

P.S. If I may have said some harsh things I'm sorry.You're still a good guy ok.


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## YayGollum (Jul 25, 2006)

Okay, I READ the thing. Calm down about it.  Didn't learn anything new. Wasn't convinced that I am wrong. 

To the Ainur creating stuff thing ---> Hm. Have I read stuff incorrectly? I probably took that as meaning that the Eru dude created everything, or at least provided the materials for everything, then the Ainur types just had the power to shape stuff into whatever they wanted. oh well. There were still a lot of them, and I am not counting that they made the entire universe. From what that Tolkien dude wrote, I should only consider one planet to have been made. Other stuff out in space is taken into account by way of individuals messing with things that already existed. As to the evil torturer Gandalf's speculative power in the way of making something out of nothing, I see no evidence that he had that ability. Depending on where you look, he is an Ainur of the ilk of Lorien and Mandos, neither of which seem to have much to do with forcing matter to poof out of nothing. They did make dreams and curses, though. 

Explaining things from your next point ---> Did he kill some army of Orcs in that Moria place? I can't find my The Fellowship Of The Ring book anymore. Sure, maybe he slashed the head off of a few, though. Yes, he did break some bridge. Using evil lightning powers on an already old and messed up bridge, of course. Fell down a chasm for three days while on magical fire. Magical type things oftenly have good magical defences, according to video games.  The Balrog broke his fall onto the water. He just had some good grip while the Balrog did all of the work with transportation from those tunnels under the earth to the top of that mountain. He killed the thing because it was apparently achingly unintelligent, and he got a lucky shot it. Easily explained. Sure, both were creepy Ainur things, but I have seen plenty of limitations. I see no evidence that the evil torturer Gandalf would have been more impressive without wearing his clothes (the form of the old dude). You explained away my point about Sauron versus Numenoreans by pointing out that he was tricksy. How's about the time when he would have been easily killed by some random elves and humans, if he didn't have the insurance of the One Ring thing? The evil torturer Gandalf was considered nowhere near a match to Sauron, and Superman would have yawned at being attacked by swords. All Ainur types, while wearing their clothes, are just as vulnerable as anything made out of meat. Superman is much better, though. 

Point out some facts from that The Silmarillion book, if you think it'll help, though. I don't know why you think that I haven't read the thing. Sure, it has been a while, but oh well. Point out anything else that I might have written that is incorrect. Superman easily wins. Also, I am not a large fan of Superman, so I'm not just going with who I want to win. Ick! He is way too sickeningly nice for me.


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## Noldor_returned (Jul 25, 2006)

You're kidding. Superman. Gandalf isn't immortal. Yes, he is a maiar, but he died, and returned from beyond the circles of the world. Superman would just punch him several times, and Gandalf is finished. After all, the wizurd almost lost to a Balrog.


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## Ermundo (Jul 25, 2006)

All I could say is that you're "explaining" is only a little correct. This isn't Video Games mate. But you have your opinions and I have mine. I've been starting to think that you haven't even read FOTR completely. Oh well. Anyway, if I have atleast softened your opinion, no matter how little, about Gandalf, than it was worth all the time.


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## YayGollum (Jul 26, 2006)

Yikes! Well, that looked like a nice place to end it, but if I can attempt to clarify any of my points for you. What, was everything but the video game thing too hard for you?  Anyways, is not the point of this to prove that one or the other would win in a fight? To the death, I am guessing. Also, reasons for why they'd be fighting and how they could reconcile should be tossed from our brains for these sorts of discussions. From what I can tell, here are my points ---> 

Superman easily has better durability than any Ainur type. Proof ---> Mel, one of the best, cut by a sword. Sauron, one of the best Maiar types, drowned and would have been killed by a sword, if not for his One Ring thing insurance. Saruman, although he lost his little title, was still one of the most powerful Ainur types (sure, a different type of Ainur, but still, you enjoy tossing around the end-all arguement ---> "But he's magic! And a demigod!") and killed by Grima. The evil torturer Gandalf, died of heat exhaustion?  Superman wouldn't have had much of a problem with any of those things. He has the abilities to use super speed and strength to fly too far away to be spotted while still throwing swords with much accuracy into the evil torturer Gandalf's body. But then, Superman has no need for tools, no matter how easy it would be for him to cut people's heads off as an afterthought, while he's already travelling superly fast to whereever. He could also lob an island at the guy. Or use his laser vision, which he never uses correctly, in my opinion.  Headbutt him, toss him out into space, flick a nail through his brain, or whatever else. What can the evil torturer Gandalf do? He has no super speed to combat any of Superman's attacks that could include it. His durability isn't close to Superman's. His magical capabilities aren't recorded well enough for me. I hear that he's one of the better ones, but still easily worse than Sauron. I'm not too sure about much else, except that he's easily smarter than Superman. Which is why Batman wins in a fight against anybody, if he has time to think about it.


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## Ermundo (Jul 26, 2006)

Melkor, one of the best, cut by a sword actually makes sense. He poured almost all of his power into his creations and left almost nothing for himself. What do you think. As for Sauron, he's been out on the battlefield for 7 years, mate. What do you think. Saruman poured ALL of his power into his creations. What do you think. 

Gandalf dying of heat exhaustion. Well, after fighting hordes of Goblins, a lotta Trolls, and one Balrog (without magic) while defending a door, being chased by a firebreathing lizard, using his power to break a stone bridge (which would go beyond his bodies capabilities), falling for 3 days while being burnt alive, smacking into a freezing (literally) underground pool of water (the whole thing about the Balrog breaking the fall, you basing that on the movie), running from the bottom to the top of the earth being chased by the Balrog again (Balrog's can travel faster than Superman; Proff: The battle of unnembered tears), defeating the Balrog. Well, Gandalf's BODY would obviously die of exhaustion. He's got one of an old man.


Superman may have all of these awesome powers, but those powers come from the sun. He's like a cosmic Solar battery. If he were to run out of energy and there was no sun, he would die. Gandalf, on the other hand, can change his body to anything he wants, with the limitation of imagination (rhymes), so technically Gandalf could change into a body similar to Superman's and yet his power would not run out. Why. Because unlike Superman Gandalf doesn't need to recharge because his power comes from his SOUL.

OK, that about wraps up the argument: Let's have a new fight! ><!!!
Also, because this is a Tolkien Forum. One of the characters has got to be Tolkien related.



Balrog 
vs
Jedi
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## YayGollum (Jul 26, 2006)

Woah! No calling wins, morgoththe1 person! No distracting from ongoing debates by way of bringing in a new topic! Pure evil, dude! Craziness. 

What I think about Mel, Sauron, and Saruman ---> I could pick apart your little points, but that would be distracting from my point, which was mostly pointing out that any Ainur type thing can be killed by way of the normal methods, as long as they are wearing clothes. Superman has many ways to easily kill something as vulnerable as any human. 

You did the paragraph about the scene with the Balrog again, even though I already messed with it? The only new points that you added (which I haven't already messed with) can be refuted by way of ---> Actually, no, I have based none of my arguments on ideas from the movies. Did the Balrog break the fall in the movie? I don't remember. oh well. Seems plausible, to me, though. A fall like that would kill an old man, of course!  And as to the Balrog being able to move faster than Superman, I doubt it and saw no evidence of it. Superman travels at the speed of plot and the top speed of a Balrog has never been measured. Also, as I already wrote, Gandalf was holding onto the Balrog as it moved. There was no catching up. 

As to your last points, would Superman die if he ran out of solar energy from the yellow sun? I figured that he'd just become the equivalent of a normal human, which is what they were under the red sun. But then, they were under any sun at all on Krypton and were obtaining any kind of solar energy. Mayhaps, without any solar energy to creepily absorb, they'd die for no good reason? Messed up photosynthesis? oh well. Superman has no danger of running out of solar energy, in this fight. Also, where did you obtain the information that the evil torturer Gandalf can shape (and apparently also mass) shift? As I am pretty achingly sure that I have mentioned this to you before, not every Ainur type thing could do that. If they felt like wearing any clothes at all, they had to wear clothes that stuck with their power level and personalities. Since the evil torturer Gandalf (and the other wizards) were forced into their old human forms, we don't know what he would have normally been. But then, even Mel and in his prime still had a pathetically weak body, compared to Superman's. Can't even stare directly at the sun? Superman can do that.

As to what you keep hinting at ---> What? Why would you think that the evil torturer Gandalf could keep fighting once his body has been destroyed? When every other Ainur type thing gets killed, they stay that way. Do you believe that since the evil torturer Gandalf got to come back once, that he could continue to do it several more times, or are you just a fan of the idea that a houseless spirit can affect anything?

Oh, also, a Jedi versus a Balrog? A Jedi easily wins, depending on which version of Jedi powers you're paying attention to. I'd go with the original movies and the older books, of course.


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## Ermundo (Jul 26, 2006)

OK. Remember what I said before. Ainur can change anything about their body. They can alter their physical composition from their gender to well, anything. So for your first point, Ainur aren't as weak as you say mate (physically speaking). Since they can do anything to their bodies, they could easily just change their bodies structure to function just like Superman's, or much greater even. Superman does have many ways to kill something as vulnerable as a human, but almost no way to kill something as vulnerable as an Ainur.

As for your second point, I brought up that the Balrog scene since your counter argument had forgotten some key points, completely disabling that part of your post. You said that while Gandalf died of heat exhaustion, while Superman could have avoided all these things with his powers. Well yea, but your forgetting that Gandalf had the body of an old man, which was a severe drawback when facing the Balrog. He could not change form into something greater since he would be breaking rules that the Valar and Eru specifically applied to the wizards while they were in Middle Earth. Also, the Balrog isn't as weak as you claim he is. The guy does have super strenghth, a sword of fire, it CAN travel at very high speeds, and other things (if I were to say the Balrog could fly, we'd be getting into a topic that's a thread all by itself). You mentioned proff of super speed, well, when Morgoth (Melko) was in the webs of Ungoliath and was in trouble, he cried out for his Balrogs. They came so fast that it seemed like a great "Tempest" of fire were appearing. They arrived very quickly after traveling vast distances (atleast 3000 miles between Valinor and Untmo(hoped that spelled right)) and managed to make mincemeat out of the Creepy little crawler. The Balrog may not be AS fast as Superman, but it comes close.

As for your second point about the whole sun thing, I admit I overestimated the effects of no sun. Superman problably would be just as powerful as your average man if he did run out of power. Now we gotta think where Superman and Gandalf would fight. If they fought in someplace where there is no sun, or a solar source is to far to be useful, than in the end it would matter, mate. He would be no better than a meagly human. Now that wouldn't be a fight. Also, for your thing about Ainur and their shape changing abilities, Ainur took on forms that would be more appropriate for different situations, and also somewhat because of their personality, but not because of their power limits. Only those who were at the level of Sauron with his ring destroyed would have to have that to worry about. And you've got to understand (this is common sense), that back in their days, they didn't have reason to take on indestructible forms. It was not pretty (stupid fashion obssesed fashion freaks), and back than, people fought with swords, not with xray vision or super speed. See what I mean. They didn't have any reason to take on super forms, cause technically speaking, they didn't have any Superman like enemies. Melkor was to weak, orcs, Goblins, and Trolls are outta the question, and Sauron's a manipulator. Balrog's and Dragons are extremely potent, but in a different way than trying to atomize your body.

As for your last point, so what if Gandalf dies once. Unlike all the other guys who lost their bodies, Gandalf is not weak. He didn't pour his power into some worldly object with the intent of ruling the rule only to have that power backfire. Gandalf is considered one of the great among mia. And you know a mia's power. Sure, Gandalf could die once, but he could just repair his body or make an even better one OR anything else. Remember, Gandalf's power source is something beyond the Physical realm, something divine. And it's called his soul. If his power came from his body, than just like Superman, Gandalf's powers would be greatly affected by a major injury. Also, because his power is his being, having no body would still make Gandalf just as lethal.


As for a jedi versus a Balrog, the Balrog would win. I haven't read the books but I've seen all the movies.


P.S: This is my last post on this scenario Yay. I'm tired of debating who would win. It's all based on opinion in the end.


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## YayGollum (Jul 26, 2006)

Got it. We have gained different sets of knowledge about the shape (and mass) shifting powers of Ainur things. I can provide quotes that show off my belief that Ainur types can only take the forms of things having to do with their personalities and genders. Also that their powers weaken over time, until they can barely even use their power to keep clothes on, which would turn them into a powerless ball of spirit energy, as far as I know. I see nothing that points out that Ainur things can affect anything physical without having their clothes on. 

But then, you are correct, if the evil torturer Gandalf decided to drop his physical form, Superman couldn't kill him. It would be a tie. If the fight took place while Superman was just a regular human, the evil torturer Gandalf would probably have been able to kill him first, but Superman would still be able to shoot him with a gun. Such a fight is not really the point of these sorts of debates, though. 

I have seen no evidence that any Ainur can be in a physical body, have it killed, then somehow come back, especially not in a body that's better than the old one. Sauron could come back after losing his body since he had his One Ring thing. The evil torturer Gandalf came back better than ever not by way of any power of his own, but by way of Mandos, who was way more powerful than the evil torturer Gandalf, the Balrog, and Sauron. 

From what I can tell, an Ainur thing is limited in what forms he can take (except for the ones whose only power was shapeshifting and Sauron, who I'd guess was just an exceptional version of one of them), and once he takes a shape, it is as much a part of him as any human's. They can turn back into their normal and invisible spirit form, but it can't interact with the physical world, as far as I know, but if the body is killed while they're still in it, they have lost their power, since it was tied to the body at the time. They still exist, as humans do when they are killed, but only as invisible and ineffectual spirit things.


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## Ermundo (Jul 26, 2006)

Your somewhat correct. They're power and their body are two seperate things. Their power is part of their being, their soul (which I have say so many times before) while they're body is the way to interact with the Physical world. Had it not been for the body, than the Ainur cannot harm anything. But than again, nothing can harm them. 

You can think of the body as a cosmic cap on the power that the Ainu can use. Although the Ainu (singular) may have much, MUCH more power, in the end, using to much of it will go beyond what the body was designed for. Than the body would be destroyed. That wouldn't be a good thing since making a body takes uses a portion of the Ainur's body. It only a fraction, but it's still something. MAKING the body. If you already have a body than changing doesn't cost anything. Also may I add, if the body suffers from a minor wound, than the body's natural healing cycle kicks in, and not that the Ainur has to use more of his power. Just like the body of an elf or man can naturally heal, so can an Ainur's

Even major wounds can be healed, and much better and quicker than an elf/ man can heal his or her wounds. But if something MAJOR MAJOR like being stabbed like 400 times to the point you can't heal, than you have to use magic. 

I could prove everything I said here to with quotes from the book too you know. But the problem is I don't have my Sil with me. Nor my Lord of the Rings Trilogy. In the end, it comes down to what you think.



P.S: I just had to make this one last post. I know I promised and I feel like a jerk but it was all for the better...I think


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## YayGollum (Jul 26, 2006)

Okay, how's about this? Garn, I hate using quotes! People are supposed to believe that I know what I'm writing about and just have a different viewpoint! oh well. ---> "Now the Valar took to themselves shape and hue; and because they were drawn into the World by love of the Children of Iluvatar, for whom they hoped, they took shape after that manner which they had beheld in the Vision of Iluvatar, save only in majesty and splendour. Moreover their shape comes of their knowledge of the visible World, rather than of the World itself; and they need it not, save only as we use raiment, and yet we may be naked and suffer no loss of our being. Therefore the Valar may walk, if they will, unclad, and then even the Eldar cannot clearly perceive them, though they be present. But when they desire to clothe themselves the Valar take upon them forms some as of male and some as of female; for that difference of temper they had even from their beginning, and it is but bodied forth in the choice of each, not made by the choice, even as with us male and female may be shown by the raiment but is not made thereby. But the shapes wherein the Great Ones array themselves are not at all times like to the shapes of the kings and queens of the Children of Iluvatar; for at times they may clothe themselves in their own thought, made visible in forms of majesty and dread."

There you go. They can't switch from male to female, and they can only take the forms of the stuff they understand. You might even have to go with the idea that they always have to be roughly human-shaped, too. Anyways, as I already pointed out, the evil torturer Gandalf can't turn into something with Superman's level of durability, since nothing like that exists, as far as he knows. Also, it isn't even in his range of expertise. He was all about elves, not even about rocks or smoke or something, so he couldn't turn into some rock monster to gain durability. Even if he could, rocks aren't much of a defense against Superman, anyways. I don't know where you came up with the superly enhanced healing idea.


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## Starbrow (Jul 26, 2006)

I'm going to throw my 2 cents in here.

Morgoththe1, you seem to be greatly overestimating a Maia's power to "take shape." I don't see any evidence in The Sil that any of the Ainur could rapidly take any shape they want in order to have the advantage in a battle. Nor is there any evidence that Gandalf could heal himself of mortal wounds. 

I have to agree with Yay that Superman is more powerful. Of course, that doesn't mean he'll win the battle, though. There could be an upset.


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## Persephone (Jul 28, 2006)

^^^ agree with the above. Gandalf's power is not as strong nor as easy to manipulate as Superman's. Remember his battle with the Balrog? He had to be sent back to Middle-Earth by the Powers-that-be and healed in Lothlorien - which means, he does not have the power to heal himself.


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## Ermundo (Jul 28, 2006)

I feel so secluded. Won't anyone take my side of feel my views.


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## Persephone (Jul 28, 2006)

morgoththe1 said:


> I feel so secluded. Won't anyone take my side of feel my views.


 
Come on! Don't be like that. This is just a game after all.

Maybe you should ask another question. 

Okay, I have one, and if this has been asked before, then just ignore it and ask something else.


How about King Arthur vs Aragorn?


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## Ermundo (Jul 29, 2006)

Sorry Narya, but I've already had a two new ones that're still going.

Here they are:


Which is the best movie battle you ever saw:


FOTR's Balrog vs Gandalf Fight

or

TPM (The Phantom Menace)'s Darth Maul vs Qui-Gon-Jin and Obi-Wan


And the 2nd battle:

Balrog 


vs 


Jedi


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## YayGollum (Jul 30, 2006)

All three --->

The fight from that The Phantom Menace movie was easily cooler than the fight from that The Fellowship Of The Ring movie, even though I am not a large fan of the newer Star Wars movies. *sniff* The Phantom Menace wins because it had better music, of course. Also, lightsabers are cool.  This question was of a different ilk, though.

In addition to my earlier decision on this question, here is an explanation ---> A Jedi would easily win, because he could just crush the Balrog's brain from several miles away. If they have brains made out of fire, though, he could also just jump into the Balrog's brain and force it to kill itself. If the Balrog had a bit more willpower than that, he could just drown the thing or pound him up against several mountains, all while sipping some tea and using only concentration powers.

King Arthur versus the evil Aragorn, though? Yikes! My gut reaction is to go with King Arthur, since he has a more legendary vibe, of course. And because I despise the evil Aragorn.  Sure, if they were both in their primes and decked out in their best armours, the evil Aragorn would still be better at tracking you down, but I am thinking that we should only be worried about swordplay. King Arthur has better but heavier armour, I would think. The evil Aragorn is some kind of creepy Numenorean thing and might have had more endurance and strength than most, but a lot of that was probably watered out of him, and King Arthur was still pretty good. The evil Aragorn is also smarter, in my opinion, which is usually the trump card. Garn. I'd still go with King Arthur, based on the facts that I am less of an expert on the guy than I am with the evil Aragorn, and I would hope that he is better than what I'm thinking. *hides*


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## HLGStrider (Jul 30, 2006)

Aragorn. Arthur was great as knights go but has nothing that could be considered a special gifting, no foresight, no hands of the healer, nothing really. Plus Aragorn has more experience based on age.

It does depend a little bit on equipment, though, doesn't it? Didn't Arthur have a sheath that made him invulnerable to wounds? If he had that he'd win by default.


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## Ermundo (Jul 31, 2006)

I'm going with Aragorn to for the reasons HGLStrider said.

As for the the battle scene, the Balrog one wipes the floor of of the Duel of the Fates thingy. There music completely matches the scenes, the visual effects are stunning, and it overall looks and FEELS way cooler than Darth Maul fighting two Mere humans with lightsabers (((Note: When I said scene, I meant also when Gandalf and the Balrog were falling down the earth))).

Lastly, Balrog vs Jedi, I'm going with Balrog. The Balrog's made out of fire, which would mean the Jedi wouldn't be able to get CLOSE to the demon. Also, the Balrog's got much more strenghth than your average Jedi, has a heck lot more speed, so that the Jedi would have a terribly hard time avoiding the Balrog's ferrocious attacks and locking in on him at the same time. Also, the Balrog's the equavilent of a fallen angel, so the force would barely have an affect on him. Lastly, a Balrog's will is to great to be taken over by a jedi, in fact if a jedi did do that the Balrog would just problably take over HIS mind.


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## Persephone (Jul 31, 2006)

morgoththe1 said:


> Which is the best movie battle you ever saw:
> 
> FOTR's Balrog vs Gandalf Fight
> 
> ...


 
Darth Maul vs Qui-Gon-Jin and Obi-Wan. The Balrog and Gandalf fight was too short and too simple. "You shall not pass!" Balrog moves, falls, and snaps his whip then takes Gandalf with him, and even in TTT, when the scene of the fight was shown, it didn't show too much. So yeah, it's the Darth Maul vs. Obi Wan.




morgoththe1 said:


> And the 2nd battle:
> 
> Balrog
> 
> ...


 
JEDI. 


For King Arthur vs. King Aragorn - I'm basing this on the Arthur character of the latest King Arthur film which is a Roman Legionaire. I say, King Aragorn. He can win even all by himself.


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## YayGollum (Aug 1, 2006)

I am not the brand of geek to know enough to mess with the King Arthur versus the evil Aragorn idea. sorry about that. But still. I am neutral to King Arthur, even though I wouldn't be surprised that, if I did a bunch of research, I wouldn't like the guy. I am definitely not a large fan of the evil Aragorn, though, so proceed, King Arthur.  

As to which fight scene looked cooler, I am normally unimpressed by creepy visual effects. sorry about that. I am a larger fan of the sense of hearing to the sense of sight. The music in The Phantom Menace was much cooler, and Yay for lightsabers, the geek's favorite weapon, unless he's some kind of crazy person.  The Narya lady is correct that the other fight was too short and simple. So what if the achingly boring Darth Maul character is up against two boring humans all with a lot less creepy computer interference? It's swordplay, great music, more interesting characters, and fun choreography. I'd choose the swordfight between Inigo Montoya and Westley, but oh well.  

As to the Jedi versus the Balrog, you crazy, morgoththe1 person. I already wrote that the Jedi need be nowhere near the Balrog to easily kill him with his brain. Sure, Yay for a Balrog having way better physical capabilities than a Jedi who isn't using the Force already to augment himself, but the Jedi wins by way of far better powers. I see no evidence that a Balrog can mess with somebody else's brain, besides with their fear ability.


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## Persephone (Aug 1, 2006)

LOL!!! My goodness, Yay! My sides are hurting!

But yeah, that is really a huge advantage over the Balrog. The Jedi Mind trick. A Jedi can convince a Balrog that it's a chicken from like way over there.


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## Ermundo (Aug 1, 2006)

Mate, aren't we all crazy when it comes down to it.



YayGollum said:


> I see no evidence that a Balrog can mess with somebody else's brain, besides with their fear ability.




And I see no evidence that a Jedi can mess with a Balrog's brain. Who's to say the Balrog even has a brain. After all, we don't know how a Balrog's body works, do we? Maybe the Balrog's source of intelligence comes from something beyond the force, so that the jedi couldn't do his mind trick . And even if the jedi could get acess to this source of intelligence, the most skilled jedi would problably have to think about his own mind's safety before even considering taking control of the Balrog. As for Physical Prowess, Yay, in the end it would be a huge advantage. A Balrog could just sneak behind the poor guy and clove him in two before the small fry knew what was coming at him. And even if a Jedi can overcome all of this, he'd problably pee in his pants out of the fear the Balrog inspires.

If the jedi were at the level of Yoda or higher though, than the outcome would problably be a draw. 


As for the whole thing about scenes, yea, it's nice to put down reasons why you think it's cool and all, but when it comes down to it, it really depends on personal pref. I mean, I could spend most of my post talking why the Balrog scene is so cool, but you guys problably wouldn't understand, because of different taste. I say what I say since the music sounds really cool and tied with the graphics, it kinda gives you that epic feeling you don't feel to often. 


I don't much about King Arthur, but I know a bit more about Aragorn. Aragorn has the gift of foresight, has a HUGE life expectency, a tricked out sword, and a heck lotta other stuff while King Arthur... doesn't.
The only thing special about him is that he pulled a sword from a stone... not very special...


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## Durin's Bane (Aug 1, 2006)

Erm, mind tricks? From what I saw from Star Wars Jedis don't use 'em much in fights... only in games... And from what I saw of Jedi fights... well... they don't have a chance against a balrog. The Force may guide them a bit in the darkness and they might throw an object or two at him but... if the balrog's sword can stop the lightsaber... it'll take a great of a Jedi to claim victory over a balrog...
And for all thee Warcraft fans how 'bout the Witch King vs the Lich King?


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## Noldor_returned (Aug 1, 2006)

morgoththe1 said:


> I've been starting to think that you haven't even read FOTR completely.


 
Oh, is that so dark lord? Jk, but I'm re-reading it again for the umpteenth time at the moment, and there is no way Gandalf could win. He couldn't beat Sauron by himself. He had to have help from thousands of others, when he was sent there because, as it says in UT, 


> ...they must be mighty, peers of Sauron...


 
So, really, if Superman could defeat Sauron (ignoring the ring and its attributes) then he could beat Gandalf.


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## YayGollum (Aug 2, 2006)

Superman could easily beat Sauron, even if the dude had his One Ring thing. The proof is that a bunch of humans and elves would have killed him. Superman could have easily killed Sauron, then tossed the One Ring thing into the sun.  

Anyways, I see no evidence that Balrogs had any sort of psychic attacks or defenses. That fear thing seems more like an aura that they can't even turn off, which doesn't point to any sort of mental discipline. Sure, the Balrog has been around for a while and probably isn't stupid. Jedi mind tricks weren't the only things I suggested, though. The Jedi doesn't have to worry about getting into a physical fight with the Balrog, since he'd be able to sense an incoming and aggressive personality before it got to him, then catch the thing with telekinesis and do whatever he wanted with it. I see no evidence of a defense versus telekinesis. Also, even if the Jedi had to jump into a physical fight against a Balrog, they can become super fast, if they feel like it, too. Could absorb the fire and use the energy in some other way. I see no evidence that a sword even composed of creepily magical fire could stop a lightsaber. Even if the fights in the movies weren't as cool as they could have been (since lots of cool powers are never used, for some reason), I base my arguements on what they could be capable of.


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## Ermundo (Aug 2, 2006)

YayGollum said:


> Anyways, I see no evidence that Balrogs had any sort of psychic attacks or defenses. That fear thing seems more like an aura that they can't even turn off, which doesn't point to any sort of mental discipline.




So.Why would a Balrog even want to turn off it's aura. It really helps in all the fights he's had, it keeps his orcs in check, heck, why should the Balrog even consider that fact. Just because he hasn't ever turned off his aura doesn't proove that the Balrog's got no mental physic. Also, I don't see any evidence that a Jedi's mind trick is so powerful. 



YayGollum said:


> The Jedi doesn't have to worry about getting into a Physical fight with the Balrog, since he'd be able to sense an incoming and aggressive personality before it got to him, then catch the thing with Telekineses and do whatever he wanted with it. I see no evidence of of a defense vs telekineses.



No doubt he would be able to sense the Balrog coming, but would he be fast enough? In the end, even if the Jedi's got the force, he still has a body, and a frail one at that. If the jedi wanted to do it's force thing, it has to lock on, which would proove impossible, unless by shear luck. I've played the games (Battlefront 2 was sweet!), seen the movies, and even read one of the books, but based on what I've seen, a jedi's speed still isn't fast enough for how Tolkien described the Balrog's speed. Now say that a Jedi does manage to lock on, you gotta think, the Balrog weighs a lot more than you think. If Yoda could barely lift up pillar, who's to say that a regular jedi could do could do the same with the Balrog. The demon weighs at least a ton and wouldn't break a sweat breaking free from the force grip. A jedi's force choices are severely limited. 


When it came down to a Physical fight, the Balrog would school the Jedi. You said that there's no evidence that a sword of fire could absorb anything, but than again, it's never happened before, and the possibility isn't to far fetched. After all, the Balrog was able to absorb some of Gandalf's lightning, so who's to say that a fire sword couldn't absorb something of the force? That aside, the Balrog's Physical capabilities surpass that of a Jedi by... a lot let's just say. The Lightsaber would prove a threat, but I doubt it can stop fire. And like I said earlier, the Balrog's on fire, and a jedi isn't. The jedi would have a terrible time getting even close to the heat.

Now, like I said before, if the Jedi were at the level of say, Yoda or higher, than things would get very, Very interesting.


Can you feel the burn? of the Balrog?


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## YayGollum (Aug 3, 2006)

Hm? No, I am still cool, calm, and confident that victory is already mine. 

Evidence of how cool the Jedi mind trick can be ---> The Emperor, most notably during the Battle Of Endor, could spread his influence into thousands of brains over large areas, all while being distracted by that cool fight between Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker. Not really tricking the brains into doing something that they wouldn't normally do, just amplifying natural loyalty and things like that to get his people to fight better, but such a range is impressive, making me wonder how cool it could be if he focused on one person. The mad clone Joruus C'Baoth enjoyed jumping into people's brains, destroying large portions of them, which required his mind to be linked to the other's if they wished to live for very long. He could also spread a brainwashing sort of influence over at least the population of a small city. The Jedi mind trick is thwarted mostly due to strong willpower or creepy mental defences. I see no evidence that the Balrog had either of those things. We don't know much about this particular guy's personality. He was a follower of Mel for a while, ran away from the big fight that ended up with Mel being hauled away, hid until some Dwarves accidentally happened upon him, and didn't even poke his head out of the door to see if was safe to come out. Doesn't sound like an especially mentally strong dude, to me.

To your argument on how catching and killing the dude with telekinesis wouldn't work ---> You admit that a Jedi might easily sense the thing coming, but you figure that the speed idea that you keep clinging to will help, why? Is that Ungoliant scene the only example of speed that you have? I see no evidence that they have especially quick reflexes or dodging type speed. Your example could just mean that they are good sprinters.  How fast a Jedi can concentrate on stopping an opponent with telekinesis is limited only by how fast his mind works, nothing physical. The speed of thought isn't that bad, from what I have experienced. As to the weight of a Balrog, I don't remember that being written anywhere, but I would figure that he wouldn't weigh much. He's made out of smoke, fire, and only has a bit of steel for claws. Nothing close to tons.

Back to your physical fight thing ---> I already wrote that a Jedi could absorb the thermal energy and convert it into another type, which he could use however he wished, so fire doesn't have to hurt him. Also, wouldn't absorbing most of his body weaken the guy? oh well. Sure, a Balrog may be strong and have some claws, but a Jedi could also erect a shield out of creepy Force energy, if he felt like it. Perfectly safe and as strong as the Jedi's mind is.


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## RangerStryder (Oct 11, 2008)

*Aragorn vs Boromir in DeathMatch*

When Boromir was tempted to go to the dark side, what if he does and there's a chance for Boromir to fight Aragorn to the death .....who do you think will win?

Aragorn: More experienced, stalker, older but not too old for a Numenorian, royal blood, great stamina and strength, healer.

Boromir: Gondor's battle tested Commander/Captain-General, great stamina, great strength, Numenorian descent, heir to the stewardship of Gondor.


Lets start the discussion.


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## Firawyn (Oct 11, 2008)

*Re: Aragorn vs Boromir in DeathMatch*

Well to hold to Tolkien's own ideals, I'm gunna go with Aragorn - 

The pure of heart will win.


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## YayGollum (Oct 11, 2008)

*Re: Aragorn vs Boromir in DeathMatch*

Hm? Since when was Boromir especially impure? Oh, since the One Ring thing messed with his brain, forcing him into uncharacteristic actions. Ah, but wait! That means that he's innocent! Besides, I figure that Boromir is more stupid than evil. He had a great plan. The One Ring thing is some kind of powerful. Employ it for good! What's the problem, you idiot hobbit? 

My answer ---> The evil Aragorn would win, of course. Way more experience and not a lot of debilitations yet. Also, since he's easily more intelligent, he'd win even if he wasn't any good in a fight.


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## Illuin (Oct 12, 2008)

*Re: Aragorn vs Boromir in DeathMatch*

I enjoy trivial battle threads myself. You should start a “general” battle thread that allows all fantasy, sci-fi, comic book, horror characters (you know, like Terminator vs. Durin’s Bane etc.). I myself would love to play; and it might generate some more activity for those that are a bit short on time when it comes to writing lengthy, in-depth posts. I say start a thread .

As for your scenario, come on! Boromir would have ended up on the slab real quick. Did Sauron fear Boromir? I think not.


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## YayGollum (Oct 12, 2008)

There you go. Lots of other fightses to look back at. Or just come up with some new ones in here.


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## Illuin (Oct 12, 2008)

Now that Yay has mingled the Eldar Days with the present; I must say, that has got to be the funniest thread I have ever read in TTF (as far as genuine humor). However, other than maybe Superman, you folks never strayed beyond Star Wars vs. LoTR battles. I guess it was a sign of the times . There is certainly room for improvement here .


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## YayGollum (Oct 13, 2008)

And what's wrong with Superman and Star Wars? Well, okay, I can come up with some things wrong with them. They are just a couple of things that I felt sure about. I just went back to read all of these. Woah. I had lots of fun back there. I thought up some stuff that I could have used in those debates. Mayhaps I shall use them if they ever show up again. For other humor, the earlier parts of this thread have gotten me to smile, in the past, which is a bit of a feat. Yay for the DGoeij person! ---> http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?t=3627


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## Illuin (Oct 13, 2008)

That's some great stuff Yay. "_Your fly, you fool"_ . That’s hard to top; but some others had me coughing up parts of my lungs as well. Man, this place has been a rip on nights it’s been cranking; but it must pale in comparison to the old days. It’s obvious I missed out on a lot. It serves me right for poo pooing forums (as trivial) in those days. I had no idea. Hopefully there will be another surge when _The Hobbit_ flick gains some momentum; but I don’t think it will (or can) compare with the time surrounding "_the origin of the forum_" and the Trilogy. It’s timing; like _The Beatles_ in music. Right time, right place, in step with internet technology, unprecedented undertaking by filmmakers, unexpected controversy…the list goes on. This shadowy Dapence character was on top of it from the get go...Kudos. Well, I love this place "as it is" anyway. I’m up for some more silly battle scenarios if anyone else is .


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## Burzum (Oct 18, 2008)

Is it okay to do forces vs. forces? 

For example, the fleet of Ar-Pharazon when assailing Valinor vs. the host of Morgoth at Nirnaeth Arnoediad.


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## YayGollum (Oct 19, 2008)

It is okay.

Hm. I would go with Mel, even though I don't know the answers to some questions that might change things (Are both armies supposed to be in boats? where would the battle take place? Do the Easterlings get to suddenly betray the Numenoreans?). He had Orcs and balrogs and dragons. They were just a bunch of super-powered humans. Not even one Dwarf. Craziness. Of course, I can't be certain. I don't have much in the way of numbers, and I didn't get to see the humans fight. Manwe just whined to Eru about having just gotten the blood stains out of everybody's clothes since their last fight, and Eru was hoping that he'd get to intervene in anything besides draining poor Smeagol of his awesome dancing prowess.


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## Illuin (Oct 19, 2008)

Ar-Pharazon and company wouldn’t stand a chance. The Noldor in the First Age could have given the Númenóreans a good spanking; and they got their butts handed to them in the fourth and fifth battles.


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## YayGollum (Nov 18, 2008)

Have I thought too highly of the Numenoreans? Their threat seemed fairly great, to myself. Where'd they get that unbreakable stone? Did they haul a bunch from the way better Numenor, or was it stone from Middle Earth that had been creepily as well as magically enhanced? But oh well. 

Here is something new:

The evil torturer Gandalf with his evil Ring Of Power, Glaurung with his masterful gaze, the evil Saruman with his Eru-given debate-bypassing voice, and Feanor, wielding his power of awesome, in a zero holds barred race to persuade one average human to bring them some lemonade.


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## Illuin (Nov 18, 2008)

> by YayGollum
> _The evil torturer Gandalf with his evil Ring Of Power, Glaurung with his masterful gaze, the evil Saruman with his Eru-given debate-bypassing voice, and Feanor, wielding his power of awesome, in a zero holds barred race to persuade one average human to bring them some lemonade._


 
Ha; as far as a battle, that‘s easy. Look at the awe and respect Gandalf himself gave Fëanor. None of the other choices (including Sauron himself) would stand a chance against that nut job. Only Morgoth himself, or a slew of Balrogs could withstand him; even though he was a fool.

But as far as creepily persuading the average Joe to bring him some cool lemonade on a hot summer day; that depends on the species. A Hobbit; Gandalf - A Human; Saruman or Glaurung - an Elf; Fëanor. But on the whole, I’d have to give Fëanor the edge here as well.


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## YayGollum (Nov 18, 2008)

Your conclusion is that Feanor's power of awesome poured into rhetoric would be able to overpower the comparative pleadings of the others, and they wouldn't be able to do anything about it? I typed zero holds barred. My conclusion is that it would go like this ---> 

The human looks up, wondering where all of these people and - Ack! It's a dragon! - came from. The evil torturer Gandalf jumps in front of Glaurung to shield him from his gaze and shouts, "Quick! Bring me some lemonade! It's our only hope!" The human is seized by the compulsion to find some lemonade, but he wavers with confusion, wondering how it could possibly help. 

Glaurung smirks and shoots a petrifying gaze at the other three. Although they're all plenty strong enough to break free of that, he's just doing it to buy time. He steps past the evil torturer Gandalf, even though he's big enough to obtain eye contact with the human past the wizard. He's mostly attempting to scare the guy into looking back up at him. The human, unfortunately, is casting about for a grocery store or something (I don't know where this epic battle is taking place). 

Feanor breaks free first and slashes at Glaurung with a sword that never got any decent page time. "No need to rush, human. I'll have this worm defeated in no time. A glass of lemonade would be a sufficient reward, though. Mind his tail!" 

The evil Saruman, having also broken free, sidles up to the human and points to a nearby gas station. "You haven't brought them the lemonade. Good. You know that lemons are out of season! But look over there! Bring me some lemon-flavored Kool-Aid or something." The human nods and rushes off. 

Glaurung glares at Feanor and inspects his scales. The evil torturer Gandalf, stubbornly sticking to his role of mostly a harmless old man until the most dramatic moment, stays frozen until the human comes back, when he laughs and points out, "Trying to trick us with some new abomination, Saruman? That doesn't count as lemonade!" 

The evil Saruman grumbles, Glaurung wishes that elf blood was as common, and Feanor brags about inventing lemonade when he was two. Glaurung then sweeps the others off their feet with his tail, grabs the human, and inserts the instruction to go find some real lemonade for him. Both evil wizards accuse Feanor of lying, since they'd never even seen any lemons in Valinor. He claims to have done it in an alternate history of Tolkien's, where he was born in Middle Earth first. They wonder if that is true, and Saruman is asking the more widely traveled as well as evilly torturing Gandalf if he's seen any lemons in Middle Earth, either, when the human comes back with some real lemonade. 

He's going to hand it over to the dragon, but the four fight each other off viciously enough for the guy to break free and back away from the special effects of their clash. Feanor shakes a couple of old dudes off of his leg and nonchalantly strides over. "You have done well. I chose the best man for the job, obviously. Now, hand me my lemonade." Just as the human's about to hand it over, Glaurung hits him with an apparently very well-aimed blast of flame. Of course, this only makes Feanor angry, and Glaurung can't hit the guy with his gaze, since he's cowering in fear. 

While Feanor dodges around and opens a few gashes in the dragon, the evil torturer Gandalf and the evil Saruman crawl away. Crestfallen at having their staves destroyed in their fight, the mayhaps less effective (and also evil) wizards stumble over. Since the goal is to have the guy give them the lemonade, they grind their teeth over not being able to just take it. The evil torturer Gandalf seems to grow in size and power, though, and holds his hand out for the glass. "Give me that lemonade, human. It is for your own good." 

The evil Saruman laughs contemptuously and helps the guy to his feet. "Does he look like he has your best interests at heart? Give me the lemonade, and this will all be over." 

The evil torturer Gandalf shrinks and warns, "Don't listen to him! He would only convert it into energy for further mischief! The lemonade is nothing. Drink it yourself or get rid of it! Of course," he displays his smoker's cough, "I am a bit thirsty." 

The evil wizards are easily batted aside by Glaurung, who locks eyes with the human again. In a fatal as well as classically supervillainesqe move, he forces the human to hand the glass over very slowly, which gives Feanor enough time to crawl up the dragon's throat and heroically burst back out of his mouth, surrounded by flame. Glaurung is glaring and hacking, the evil wizards have probably been knocked out, and Feanor takes the lemonade from the human's outstretched hand. 

The four then debate over whether that counts or not, since the guy had been about to give it to Glaurung, and Feanor most probably just thought it was for him.

But that is just a theory.


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## Illuin (Nov 18, 2008)

Precisely. That’s what I said…in so many words.


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## YayGollum (Nov 18, 2008)

Oh. So you did. Just clarifying, then. *waits for others*


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## Illuin (Nov 18, 2008)

> by YayGollum
> _Oh. So you did. Just clarifying, then. *waits for others*_


 
I did. But I do indeed enjoy your embellishing as always . That’s why I like this TTF place 

.


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## Illuin (Nov 20, 2008)

How about "*Eru Ilúvatar*" versus "*Q*" 

.


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## Firawyn (Nov 20, 2008)

No contest! Q would win, easily. Eru would be a gentleman and Q would take full advantage of that. Picard learned that lessonn quckly. You ever notice how all of Picard's diplomatic and otherwise manners go out the window when Q is around?

_Picard: Q wants to give me a present._

_Riker: I'll alert the crew!_


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## Illuin (Nov 20, 2008)

> by Firawyn
> _Picard: Q wants to give me a present._
> 
> _Riker: I'll alert the crew!_


 
LOL! 

 You caught that. Great scene! I’m sure you (as I) hit the rewind on more than one occasion in that scene. However, I think the level of omnipotence with these two beings is not so clear cut; even though we have our favorites. Granted, a “Q” had the ability to misplace _"the entire Deltivid Asteroid Belt"_ ; but who created the Deltivid Asteroid Belt? The _"DAB"_  would more likely be part of the "_musical composition_" brought into being by the "offspring" of a higher beings thoughts. But who knows, The Q never revealed in detail how "high up" they actually were, so the debate remains .


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## YayGollum (Nov 21, 2008)

*grumbles* So mayhaps my debate idea wasn't vicious enough for you people. *sniff*  Towards this horrible as well as new and trekkie question ---> I don't have enough information on Eru. The only stuff I ever get to see him do is create sentients, sink a small continent, and drain poor Smeagol's of his amazing dancing skills. That could be his limit. Many assume that he is some sort of omnipotent god. I'm not sure why. He never advertises himself as such, and he has lots of fun with sitting back and watching while those with all kinds of crazy powers do all of the work, thinking that he's better than them, just because he came first. I'm not a large fan of star trek, so I'd like to come up with something to let Tolkien win, but oh well.


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## Illuin (Nov 21, 2008)

> by YayGollum
> _I'm not a large fan of star trek, so I'd like to come up with something to let Tolkien win, but oh well._


 
Well, you probably don’t have to come up with anything, because the literature speaks for itself (and as far as Eru vs. Q; the writings speak for themselves). But you should indeed give Picard and Data another chance (ideologies removed). I’m actually puzzled to why someone who thinks as you is so “anti” Star Trek. Other than a “checkered past”, I just don’t see the animosity towards the greatest gift to entertainment. Why the grudge? Your hip mom seems to like it.


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## Prince of Cats (Nov 21, 2008)

Hey now, if you want to start a Tolkien versus Star Trek discussion maybe that should be another new topic




 

I haven't read this whole topic, so I can't be sure if this has been brought up, but what about Leagolas vs. Gimli? They fought alongside eachother, I wonder how they would should they have to do against each other after that


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## Firawyn (Nov 21, 2008)

At Illuin - "Hip" I would define as someone who likes what everyone else of that day likes - Chrys (or any of us!) is not "hip". We are nerds. 

Observe the definition of "nerd". (I'm serious guys, this link is a big time laugh and oh so true!)

At Prince, good one!

I'm gunna go with Legolas. He's far more graceful and composed and ini a fight with a drawf, that would be the winning hand. I think thier fighting skills are comparible, to each thier own race, but when it comes to maintaining a level head in the midst of a battle, Legolas would last longer than Gimli.

(and I don't even like elves that much!)


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## Illuin (Nov 21, 2008)

> by Firawyn
> _At Illuin - "Hip" I would define as someone who likes what everyone else of that day likes - Chrys (or any of us!) is not "hip". We are nerds. _
> 
> _Observe the definition of "nerd". (I'm serious guys, this link is a big time laugh and oh so true!)_
> ...


 
Well, yes and no. I played heavy metal music from age 13 to 19...that was "hip". I moved to California with the former high school band and played "_*Hip*_pie music" . I then actually studied music theory and Jazz, and played Jazz music (that was "hip"). After that, I got my second degree in Classical music, along with the geeky physics degree thing. I was good friends with the geeks, the dopers, business folk, self righteous people, church folk, musicians (all genre’s inclusive). This leads me to a mathematical conclusion. Anyone who is passionate about "their thing" regardless of the genre; is a geek (and/or a "nerd"/"hip" in their area). No one is exempt! So the word NERDS, GEEKS, and HIP are synonymous to me. We are all _nerds_ and _geeks_ and _hip_ (oh my). 

As far as the Elf and the Dwarf. Like them both, but the Dwarves are indeed the "hippest" .


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## YayGollum (Nov 22, 2008)

Towards the evil star trek, sure, I would not be loathe to admit that it has at least a couple of entertaining bits. I am just one of those evil and stubborn sorts. My evil parents were huge fans of all things evil star trek. I was forced to watch the stuff anytime it came on. I know more than I'd like to. I like Star Wars better and have assumed the stance that fans of the two should be incompatible. I have met some who have professed to be fans of both. They are weird. 

Anyways, don't even worry about it, Prince of Cats person. Anything Tolkien type thing can go up against any other Tolkien type thing or non-Tolkien type thing. No large deal.

Towards Gimli versus Legolas ---> Gimli would win, as a matter of course. He uses his axe as a shield versus arrows. If any get through, at least he has any armour on. Of course, Legolas is not a bad shot, but Gimli will be decent enough to protect himself from being killed too easily, since that would be boring. Once Gimli gets up close, you should remember that Legolas is not armoured very well and would easily die. He's got a little knife, which would be pathetic versus Gimli. Sure, Legolas, with his sickening elfiness, most probably wouldn't allow him to get close. Or, if he felt like it, he'd be plenty faster and show offingly graceful. I don't see why such things are always brought up when elves are. Sure, they are those things, but it isn't as if they are Supermen. They're just two decent warriors with different strengths, but they've both dealt with people with those sorts of strengths before and would know how to counter them. Gimli wins because Dwarves are better than elves. *sage nod* Also, Gimli is most likely better at warrioring it up than Legolas. What did Legolas do before joining that Fellowship Of The Ring? Hung out in a cave, got kissed up to for being a prince, maybe took up archery as a bit of a sport, had his bodyguards protect him if ever any giant spiders came along. Pathetic.


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