# Bilbo's confusion or Tolkien's?



## Mooky87 (Jul 8, 2005)

I was recently listening to Tolkien read the chapter "Riddles in the Dark" and I heard something that confused me. After Bilbo wins the riddle game, and Gollum finds his precious missing, he go to the exit to wait for Bilbo, as Bilbo had put the ring on and was invisible. Bilbo is debating whether or not to kill Gollum. What was written confused me. Tolkien wrote, "[Bilbo] was invisible now. Gollum had no sword. Gollum had not actually threatened to kill him, or even tried yet."
Okay did I miss something or did Gollum not say that if Bilbo didn't answer a question that Gollum would eat him? Wouldn't that qualify as killing him? Do you think it was Bilbo not remembering, or do you think there was some reason Tolkien put that there? If this has been asked already, then I apologize. It has just been nagging me lately and I wanted to know what others thought, and if they too had noticed it.


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## cupn00dles (Jul 9, 2005)

I think it's just that Bilbo didn't face the "being eaten in case of losing" threat as a direct attempt on his life XD


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## Astran (Jul 9, 2005)

yes exactly, would you consider being eaten alive by a creature (quite the same shape of yourself) as a threat?


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## Thorondor_ (Jul 9, 2005)

I think Tolkien got it wrong. Gollum would give anyone alot of reasons to be taken seriously


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## HLGStrider (Jul 10, 2005)

Gollum threatened Bilbo to eat him IF he lost. Bilbo won, and Gollum's threat was therefore void. It's that all, "Tell us where they are and we'll burn you're house to the ground. .."
"Um. . .do you mean or?. . .That's a pretty vital conjunction."

Technically Gollum did threaten Bilbo's life, but with the if in there, I think Bilbo was justified in forgetting it. He didn't want to kill Gollum one way or another.


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## Thorondor_ (Jul 10, 2005)

I don't think that Gollum's cannibalism is coherent with respect for life. Gollum setting, as his prize, Bilbo's life, isn't just _any_ prize - it's indicative of a deep, _immoral_ need. I think it should have been pretty obvious to Bilbo that Gollum wanted his life, whether he lost or won.


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## Mooky87 (Jul 10, 2005)

I can see where Elgee (Can I call you that?) is coming from with the "since Bilbo won it's void" kinda thing but, I also agree with Thor. I mean, if someone threatened to eat me if I lost a game, I don't think I would have trusted him. And the fact that Bilbo left rather quickly and hid with the ring on (even though at the time he didn't realize he was invisible) shows that he was frightened of Gollum. Am I making any sense?


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## HLGStrider (Jul 10, 2005)

The question isn't whether Bilbo trusted him or not, however, it is whether he considered him to be enough of a threat that killing him at this point would be self-defense. 

I think Bilbo wasn't thinking too clearly, and it is debateable whether it was right, but with the IF in there, I think there was enough of a debate to let it stand as not a mistake, just somewhat clumsy wording (Which all writers do from time to time).


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## Kelendil (Jul 11, 2005)

Bilbo is weighing up whether or not to kill Gollum. So I suppose he is going over the facts to himself. The idea that Bilbo feels he hasn't actually been threatened really is insight into his character. The decision at the time seems relatively small, but the fact that he didn't kill Gollum is a major part of Lord of the Rings. It is Bilbo's pity that spares Gollum, and I think this passage shows Bilbos optimism and compassion.


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## Mooky87 (Jul 11, 2005)

Y'all make good points here, and please don't think for a minute that I was picking on Tolkien. I wasn't. I was just debating a part in the book and wanted other's opinions. Of course I'm glad that Tolkien wrote The Hobbit the way he did, as there would have been no Lord of the Rings otherwise.


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## baragund (Jul 11, 2005)

Mooky, you might have uncovered an inconsistency after all. I understand Elgee's point about Gollum's threat becoming null and void for losing the riddle game, but Gollum wasn't exactly a gracious loser. When Gollum looked for the Ring on his little island, couldn't find it, and began to suspect that Bilbo had it, he intended to murder Bilbo, and Bilbo knew it.

I always thought of that particular scene as the first instance of the inexplicable pity that stayed not only Bilbo's hand but Frodo's, Sam's, Gandalf's, Aragorn's and even Sauron's hand throughout the Hunt for the Ring.

That inexplicable pity has been described in earlier discussions here as intervention by Eru himself.


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## Hammersmith (Jul 11, 2005)

Kelendil said:


> Bilbo is weighing up whether or not to kill Gollum. So I suppose he is going over the facts to himself. The idea that Bilbo feels he hasn't actually been threatened really is insight into his character.


That's very true. Someone may come at me with a brick and the full intent to smash my brain out, but if I see them halfway down the road and run away, I could quite easily come out of it with the belief that they did not intend to kill me. It is, I think, Bilbo's merciful heart cheerfully believing the best of everyone, even Gollum.


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## Kelendil (Jul 11, 2005)

baragund said:


> I always thought of that particular scene as the first instance of the inexplicable pity that stayed not only Bilbo's hand but Frodo's, Sam's, Gandalf's, Aragorn's and even Sauron's hand throughout the Hunt for the Ring.
> That inexplicable pity has been described in earlier discussions here as intervention by Eru himself.


 
Or, could that pity be linked to the ring itself? Maybe all that carry or have carried the ring feel a connection to other ring bearers, an empathy that is not understood by others, like the connection between those who have suffered together (such as the bond between Sam and Frodo); an inexplicable bond is formed, that others do not understand.


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## HLGStrider (Jul 12, 2005)

I would say that is highly unlikely. For one thing, Bilbo hadn't been a "ring bearer" for more than a half hour. For another, Gollum never has this pity for Frodo. I don't think the ring could encourage true feeling. I think it all came from Bilbo's heart.


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