# tom bombadill fighting balrogs



## John stefan (Nov 1, 2020)

could tom bombadill have destroyed The Durins Bane balrog like gandalf did had he joined the fellowship along with gandalf? please give a reason for your answer


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## Ealdwyn (Nov 1, 2020)

I don't think he would have any interest in fighting balrogs and, similarly, he wouldn't be interested in joining the Fellowship. He wouldn't see the need, just as he wouldn't see the need to destroy the Ring.


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## grendel (Nov 1, 2020)

I can't think of anything less Bombadil-like than him _fighting_ a Balrog. As Ealdwyn suggests, he would have ignored it... and probably had the means to keep it out of the "boundaries he had set for himself".


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## Olorgando (Nov 1, 2020)

Taking a Monty Python angle on the question, I could imagine one way that Tom Bombadil could destroy a Balrog. But is does require Balrogs to have wings.

The Moria Balrog comes flying out for a pre-emptive strike against Tom Bombadil. Tom spots it high in the sky – and sing its wings off! Gandalf finally destroyed the Moria Balrog by casting it from the peak of Celebdil, as Glorfindel in the First Age similarly did to his Balrog in the mountains encircling Gondolin. So Balrogs very definitely cannot survive falls from great heights. 😁


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## Starbrow (Nov 1, 2020)

Bombadil certainly had power over evil things, such as the barrow-wight that captured the hobbits. He uses magic, instead of weapons, to defeat the enemy. Gandalf used his physical might, as well as magic to defeat the balrog. I'm not sure that Bombadil would be strong enough to defeat a balrog.


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## Sulimo (Nov 2, 2020)

One interesting thing about Tom Bombadil is that in his realm he is master. It states at the Council of Elrond that he would be able to hold out longer then anyone else against the full might of Mordor. However, what is unclear is how powerful is he beyond his realm. I personally believe that if a balrog entered his realm he would be able to defeat it with little effort, (probably by banishing it in some manner). My guess is that he could hold his own against any balrog, because all of the balrogs were twisted by Morgoth and just as Morgoth poured his power into his creations it reduced his power. I believe the balrogs as evidenced by Sauron's actions making the ring did likewise, following their masters example. Bombadil on the other hand is the very embodiment of preservation. This uncorrupted power would be formidable against any foe, and is why though he could potentially be defeated it would be extraordinarily difficult. Regardless my guess is that any battle he would have with a balrog would be entirely a battle of wills, and Bombadil is one I would not want to challenge.


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## Alcuin (Nov 2, 2020)

At the Council of Elrond, Glorfindel said that, 
Could [the] power [of the Lord of the Rings, of Sauron] be defied by Bombadil alone? I think not. I think that in the end, if all else is conquered, Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First…​


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## Sulimo (Nov 2, 2020)

Th 


Alcuin said:


> At the Council of Elrond, Glorfindel said that,
> ​Could [the] power [of the Lord of the Rings, of Sauron] be defied by Bombadil alone? I think not. I think that in the end, if all else is conquered, Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First…​​


The nuance is that he would hold out longer than anyone else, and Sauron is the most formidable of all balrogs. The initial question was could he defeat, Durin's Bane or one similar.


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## Olorgando (Nov 3, 2020)

Alcuin said:


> At the Council of Elrond, Glorfindel said that,
> ​Could [the] power [of the Lord of the Rings, of Sauron] be defied by Bombadil alone? I think not. I think that in the end, if all else is conquered, Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First…​​


Hmmmmm ... PJ's substitution of Arwen for Glorfindel in the first film is starting to look less abominable, all of a sudden ... 

The Hobbits-at-Tom-Bombadil's-house part is relatively early writing, where JRRT, by his own admission, wanted to give the Hobbits a small adventure.
But he did , after reaching the end of the book, go back to make early writing that did not fit well with what he had written later, fit better.

All of the Wise, including the most powerful (if hand(s?)-and-foot-tied-behind-his-back-hampered), Gandalf, were afraid of the One Ring's effects, that they expected it to have on them, all negative. Now the One Ring had "the better part" of Sauron's native (finite) power in it (see my post elsewhere involving fairly simple algebra  ) - and was utterly ineffective against Tom; he could basically scoff at it.

Then there's the part in the Tale of Lúthien and Beren, just before Lúthien and Huan rescue Beren from Tol-in-Gaurhoth, the former Tol Sirion upon which the First Age Minas Tirith (infested by Sauron and his werewolves) stood. Sauron defeated Finrod Felagund in a singing contest (this looks suspiciously like another aspect of the Finnish Kalevala that JRRT pinched). But Sauron did have to exert himself against Finrod to win - and this is undiminished First-Age Sauron, just before he was almost thrashed to death by Huan.

Now whatever TB may "actually" be, I certainly rate him as far more powerful than any of the Eldar. So, if the undiminished First Age Sauron had to exert himself against Finrod, what chance would the thrice-diminished Sauron including his One Ring stand against a singer vastly more powerful than Finrod?

I think (OK, maybe fantasize) that Sauron appearing at TB's house and challenging him would have received an answer involving southern dorsal regions; and that Tom would have made that answer stick. Now this comparison is kind of backwards even in my opinion, but imagine Sauron being a Peter, Paul and Mary fan finding himself at the biggest heavy Metal festival in Wacken in Germany when confronting TB in a song duel. Time for hearing aids afterwards?


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## Elthir (Nov 3, 2020)

John stefan said:


> could tom bombadill have destroyed The Durins Bane balrog ( . . . )?




Not sure. But Goldberry? Yes. 



> please give a reason for your answer




Lack of new Galadriel threads.


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## Olorgando (Nov 3, 2020)

Elthir said:


> John stefan said:
> 
> 
> > could tom bombadill have destroyed The Durins Bane balrog (...)?
> ...


Hm. Like when she was "doing her washing" when the four Hobbits were rescued from Old Man Willow by Tom? Just turn up the rain a bit (or more than a bit) and drench the critter, dousing his flames? Sounds plausible, as all of Melkor's fiery critters seemed to have serious issues with Ulmo's element, water.

Or were you thinking more along the lines of Goldberry, the River Woman's Daughter, turning the Withywindle into something like what Elrond turned the Bruinen into against the Nazgûl? In either case a question pops into my mind: can Balrogs suffer from colds, Influenza and the like?

Oh, and a last question: before or after Tom sings the Balrog's wings off? Makes a difference in the Balrog's impact sound: splash or splat. 🤓


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## Licky Linguist (Nov 15, 2020)

If he really wanted to, I daresay he could. But he wouldn't. For, why should he?

Tom Bombadil didn't care for anything other than himself, Goldberry, and their surroundings (except if it strayed into his path). 

He took his own path, and left the world alone, so I don't see him fighting a Balrog anytime soon 😊


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## Aldarion (Nov 15, 2020)

Thing is, what about Arda? Answer given at the council, that Bombadil would eventually fall, presupposes that Sauron would grow stronger as he conquers more. Now, with armies this is obvious: more land = more food = more orcs, and greater armies. And eventually even Bombadil would not be able to resist. This I think was the answer implied at the Council of Elrond. But what about Sauron himself? Could Sauron, should he get rid of the most of competition, eventually start tapping into Arda Marred, using Morgoth's corruption of reality to make himself increasingly more powerful? Or his innate power would set limit to that, and he would be limited to "merely" utilizing Morgoth's taint, as he had always done?


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## Olorgando (Nov 15, 2020)

Aldarion said:


> Could Sauron, should he get rid of the most of competition, eventually start tapping into Arda Marred, using Morgoth's corruption of reality to make himself increasingly more powerful?


Nope. I'm certain that none of the Ainur (which included the later Valar and Maiar) could ever exceed their original native power by any means.
That's the main point about "Morgoth's Ring".
He squandered his power (senselessly exaggerated by JRRT in early and perhaps again later writings) in challenging *all* of the other Valar, a totally hopeless task. Again possibly in early writing, JRRT stated that Melkor had a part in the power of *all* of his Valar "brethren". But had he gone head-to-head with any of them (if possible) only on their specific power, he would have been crushed by every single one of them. And never mind Tulkas, who, as per the beginning of the chapter "Of the Beginning of Days", chapter 1 of the "Quenta Silmarillion" part of the published Sil, scared the (hypothetical) digestive products out of Melkor so much that the latter had to change his (hypothetical) diapers.

But to achieve his rabid aims, Melkor *had* to squander his power. Even Melkor "in person" could not have achieved what he did through corruption (to this day the most effective way of spreading evil). So assuming Sauron had been hypothetically able to tap into and absorb into himself part of the corruption Morgoth poured into "his Ring", it would have worsened his situation. Very probably no Easterlings or Southrons to support him, perhaps even Orcs (and Trolls) reverting to their pre-corruption selves, all (or most) evil concentrated in himself - and then? Tulkas pays a short visit and beats the crap out of him with the fragments of Barad-dûr, which he has casually demolished in the first five seconds of the confrontation. No, *removing* evil from where Morgoth had already dissipated it in Arda (something *utterly* beyond Sauron's capabilities anyway) would have run contrary to their shared evil aims - to spread evil and make sure it stays spread.


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## Alcuin (Nov 16, 2020)

I’m not sure where this would fit into the discussion, but while I wholeheartedly agree with Olorgando’s observation that “the main point about _Morgoth’s Ring_” is that Morgoth’s power was disseminated throughout Arda so that all of Middle-earth became Morgoth’s Ring, I recall Tolkien said that
​Sauron’s relatively smaller power was _concentrated_; Morgoth’s vast power was _disseminated_. … Sauron’s power was not (for example) in gold as such, but in a particular form or shape made of a particular portion of total gold. Morgoth’s power was disseminated throughout Gold, if nowhere absolute (for he did not create Gold), it was nowhere absent. (It was this Morgoth-element in matter, indeed, which was a prerequisite for such “magic” and other evils as Sauron practised with it and upon it.)​​Olorgando has elsewhere recently made (humorous) reference to Sauron’s “Equations of Power”, a (comedic) reference to how Sauron might become more powerful through his Ruling Ring; in fact, I think, the effect of the One Ring was to “eavesdrop” on those who used the other Rings of Power, akin to malware or spyware in a computer, giving him influence and finally control over the others, and insight into their very thoughts _ab initio_ (“from the beginning”).
​_One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them_​_One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them._​​This was his nefarious plan for overcoming and controlling the Elf-lords of Eregion, and when that failed because they took off their Rings of Power, hid the Three, and resisted him with all their might, he gave those Rings he captured to Men and Dwarves, ensnaring the Men and grieving the Dwarves by inflaming their greed. The Ring’s impotence regarding Bombadil is I think best expressed in _Letter_ 144 where Tolkien wrote,
​[_The Lord of the Rings_] is cast in terms of a good side, and a bad side, … moderated freedom with consent against compulsion…; but both sides…, conservative or destructive, want a measure of control. But if you have as it were taken “a vow of poverty”, renounced control, … then the question of the rights and wrongs of power and control might become utterly meaningless to you, and the means of power quite valueless. … [T]he view of Rivendell [is] that it is an excellent [point of view] to have represented, but that there are in fact things … upon which its existence nonetheless depends. Ultimately only the victory of the West will allow Bombadil to continue, or even to survive. Nothing would be left for him in the world of Sauron.​​Later in _Letter_ 153 he wrote,
​T[om ]B[ombadil] exhibits [a] point in his attitude to the Ring and its failure to affect him. You must concentrate on some part, … relatively small, of the World … to tell a tale … or to learn anything however fundamental – and therefore much will from that “point of view” be left out … or seem a discordant oddity. The power of the Ring over all concerned, even the Wizards..., is not a delusion – but it is not the whole picture, even of the then state and content of that part of the Universe.​​At “The Council of Elrond”, Galdor said that
​Power to defy our Enemy is not in [Bombadil], unless such power is in the earth itself. And yet we see that Sauron can torture and destroy the very hills.​​Perhaps in saying “that Sauron can torture and destroy the very hills,” Galdor is merely employing a colorful figure of speech, but how are we to gauge the power of Tom Bombadil, an _intentional_ enigma in _The Lord of the Rings_, to a Balrog, a creature that existed in Tolkien’s legendarium long before he considered the Rings of Power, as old or older in Tolkien’s imaginative life as Bombadil himself as a character?

Is this not akin to the problem, “A man has five goats and three dogs and wears a red shirt. How old is he?” On what basis can you answer the question? Besides, Bombadil does little to discipline or reform the denizens of his own realm, leaving even Old Man Willow to his own actions, intervening only to preserve Merry and Pippin from harm; likewise, he seems not concerned with routing out the Barrow-wights except in the instance in which Frodo and his friends are in jeopardy. (As an aside, I think this indicates that Bombadil, like the Ainur, is in some communion with Eru and committed to the will of Eru so that he enables Frodo to continue his journey at a two critical junctions, Old Man Willow and the Barrow-wight; moreover his intervention causes the Nazgûl to lose track of the Ring-bearer, throwing off their calculations of where he should be and when he should be there so that they miss him, puts Aragorn in contact with Frodo at just the right moment, and arms them with the only weapons deadly to the Nazgûl, enabling Merry and Éowyn to kill the Witch-king.) I am at a loss to determine any metric that would allow me to guess at how old Tom would fare against a Balrog. Would he not simply tend to leave it alone unless it caused a disturbance in his little corner of the world?


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## Licky Linguist (Nov 16, 2020)

Alcuin said:


> I’m not sure where this would fit into the discussion, but while I wholeheartedly agree with Olorgando’s observation that “the main point about _Morgoth’s Ring_” is that Morgoth’s power was disseminated throughout Arda so that all of Middle-earth became Morgoth’s Ring, I recall Tolkien said that
> ​Sauron’s relatively smaller power was _concentrated_; Morgoth’s vast power was _disseminated_. … Sauron’s power was not (for example) in gold as such, but in a particular form or shape made of a particular portion of total gold. Morgoth’s power was disseminated throughout Gold, if nowhere absolute (for he did not create Gold), it was nowhere absent. (It was this Morgoth-element in matter, indeed, which was a prerequisite for such “magic” and other evils as Sauron practised with it and upon it.)​​Olorgando has elsewhere recently made (humorous) reference to Sauron’s “Equations of Power”, a (comedic) reference to how Sauron might become more powerful through his Ruling Ring; in fact, I think, the effect of the One Ring was to “eavesdrop” on those who used the other Rings of Power, akin to malware or spyware in a computer, giving him influence and finally control over the others, and insight into their very thoughts _ab initio_ (“from the beginning”).
> ​_One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them_​_One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them._​​This was his nefarious plan for overcoming and controlling the Elf-lords of Eregion, and when that failed because they took off their Rings of Power, hid the Three, and resisted him with all their might, he gave those Rings he captured to Men and Dwarves, ensnaring the Men and grieving the Dwarves by inflaming their greed. The Ring’s impotence regarding Bombadil is I think best expressed in _Letter_ 144 where Tolkien wrote,
> ​[_The Lord of the Rings_] is cast in terms of a good side, and a bad side, … moderated freedom with consent against compulsion…; but both sides…, conservative or destructive, want a measure of control. But if you have as it were taken “a vow of poverty”, renounced control, … then the question of the rights and wrongs of power and control might become utterly meaningless to you, and the means of power quite valueless. … [T]he view of Rivendell [is] that it is an excellent [point of view] to have represented, but that there are in fact things … upon which its existence nonetheless depends. Ultimately only the victory of the West will allow Bombadil to continue, or even to survive. Nothing would be left for him in the world of Sauron.​​Later in _Letter_ 153 he wrote,
> ...


It's nice to see peeps spending so much time and effort on answering someone's question 😘


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## Shadow (Feb 11, 2021)

Ealdwyn said:


> I don't think he would have any interest in fighting balrogs and, similarly, he wouldn't be interested in joining the Fellowship. He wouldn't see the need, just as he wouldn't see the need to destroy the Ring.


Agreed. He's eager to return home and control his own area.

Tom may not do much in the context of the story but I'll always fight his corner. He’s an avatar for mystery and not knowing absolutely everything that goes on in the world. He’s tucked away in the Old Forest, which is a scary maze; making it believable such a character resides out of reach from civilization, doing his own thing. 

I think one of the main messages is that not all powerful forces are evil.


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