# Orcs question



## Eldanor (Aug 16, 2002)

Maybe there's a thread where this is discussed. If there is, please tell me where is it...

Is there any information about Orcs' women? I mean, the books sometimes talk about orcs growing in number "like flies", but I have never seen any orc-woman in them, so... It seems like there are only male orcs...  

I would like to discuss about these things that seem to be "uncomplete" in this Tolkien world. As I said, there may be another thread about this, so if you know where is it... or just give your opinion.


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## Ceorl (Aug 17, 2002)

There are 2 possible answers to this as I see it.

1.) They could be like the Dwarves, Dwarven women are rare and consist of maybe 1/3 of the dwarven population. However they hardly ever journey or leave the Dwarven dwellings and in any case they look exactly like the Males, even down to the beard. Therefore no non Dwarves can tell the difference which began the legend that there are no Dwarven women and that the Dwarves "grow out of the stone"

2.) The other reason is more in depth. It is said in the Sil that Orcs were Elves that had been perverted by Morgoth. Now Elves when they are slain receive a 'summons' to the Halls of Mandos were they are left to wait "until the end of the world" although they can be reincarnated at the will of the valar. They do have a choice however to deny the summons, however in such a case they are left almost powerless to deny the summons from Morgoth. Now it is to be assumed that Orcs, as hybrids of the Elves would receive that same summons and denying it be sent to the void and Melkor. However just as the valar can resurrect the Elves it is possible that Morgoth could resurrect the Orcs accounting for their being able to replenish their numbers so quickly.

If there are any other theories I would enjoy hearing them.


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## YayGollum (Aug 18, 2002)

Your first answer makes more sense. That second one wouldn't, because where were the orcs coming from after Morgoth was gotten rid of? oh well.


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## Galdor (Aug 18, 2002)

It says in the Sil somewhere that Orc reproduce in the way of the Children of Iluvatar. Some I would guess that Ceorl's first theory is right.


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## Gamil Zirak (Aug 19, 2002)

I'm sure Melkor captured she-elves as well as he-elves when he perverted their figures and minds.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Aug 19, 2002)

Ceorl:

Your second idea is intensely interesting to me even though it is most likely the wrong one. However, I like it even thought I'm not sure that I understand it. Are you saying that orcs, since they are twisted elves, could possibly go to the Halls of Mandos when they die, and then if summoned would refuse because they are orcs, and would then be made susceptible to a summons by Morgoth?

I may have twisted your whole explanation as I can't even think straight at the moment. I'm very tired and have decided that I probably shouldn't post anything more today as I'm not thinking. Please forgive me if I did.


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## Ceorl (Aug 20, 2002)

JRRT stated very clearly in one of his letters, that when they died Elves may refuse the summons to Mandos but that this leaves them nearly powerless to refuse the summons to Morgoth.

That orcs are twisted Elves and that it is possible for Morgoth to 'resurrect' them is pure speculation.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Aug 20, 2002)

Ceorl:

Yeah, I know it's pure speculation. I am always interested in totally new ideas that I've never heard before - especially if they are in depth and confusing. That idea is fascinating to me, and I am enjoying pondering it.


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## Ynhockey (Aug 21, 2002)

I think Orcs are born in a way like trolls... having nothing to do with Iluvatar's will. The orcs that were converted from Elves were only the original Orcs (or so i think) and they they spawned more by their own looks.


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## Gamil Zirak (Aug 21, 2002)

Trolls were manipulated Ents. Melkor couldn't create anything on his own (well he could, but he couldn't give it life).


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## Ynhockey (Aug 21, 2002)

But how's that possible ? First of all, there's just about no way to capture and ent and torment him :S second of all, trolls don't resemble ents in any way - they are shorter, have scaly skin which does not look like trees at all, etc. - true, it is said that only Eru himself can give life to things but Elves awoke the Ents... maybe Melkor awoke the Trolls...

In mockery of Ents doesn't mean they were once ents...


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## Gamil Zirak (Aug 21, 2002)

Do Orcs look like evles? Besides the fact that they have legs, arms, and a head?


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## Nenya Evenstar (Aug 21, 2002)

BTW, didn't Melkor have something to do with the creation of Balrogs? They weren't made in mockery of anything, and I'm sure that Eru didn't just make them for kicks. So how does that work if Melkor can't give life?


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## Ynhockey (Aug 21, 2002)

Pretty much, yes. They are more similar in height and all other proportions. They're basically dark-skinned Elves who really stink and are also very stupid. And not even all Orcs came from Elves; it would be impossible 'cause there are probably more orcs than there ever were Elves.


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## Ynhockey (Aug 21, 2002)

Balrogs were once Maiar who were corrupted to Melkor's will, so...yeah


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## Gamil Zirak (Aug 21, 2002)

Of course all of the orcs didn't come from the original elves. I'm sure the orcs were able to repopulate themselves somehow. By the way, who says Trolls are short?

Balrogs are Maia. They are some of the Maia (like Sauron) who Melkor brought over to his side. The difference between the Balrogs and other Maia is that the Balrogs had fire spirits. That's why they took the shape they did in ME.


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## Ynhockey (Aug 21, 2002)

I can't quote... sorry... to sleepy, but it says on 2 occasions:

1 says that trolls are 12 feet (whereas Ents are 14 or 15 or more)

2 Fangorn says that they are taller (i'm not sure about this)...


Correct me if i'm wrong... i just don't think it's possible for Ents to be turned to Trolls... maybe it were the Entwives ???


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## Gamil Zirak (Aug 21, 2002)

It's possible that when Melkor manipulated and mutaliated them he shrunk them down.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Aug 21, 2002)

I knew that I'd get an answer in an instant. LOL. Looks like I REALLY need to get out "The Silmarillion" and read it again. Seems like I've forgotten everything inside...


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