# Aragorn knows about love



## Confusticated (Jul 22, 2004)

Did Aragorn handle Eowyn's love well? Was she just pitiful?


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## Valandil (Jul 22, 2004)

I think he was down-playing Eowyn's love for himself... perhaps in hopes that it would make things easier for her. I think she truly loved him... but he had already given his heart to another, and would be faithful in holding to that. I think he admired Eowyn - and if not for his prior commitment, may have returned her love.


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## Grond (Jul 22, 2004)

Valandil said:


> I think he was down-playing Eowyn's love for himself... perhaps in hopes that it would make things easier for her. I think she truly loved him... but he had already given his heart to another, and would be faithful in holding to that. I think he admired Eowyn - and if not for his prior commitment, may have returned her love.


I disagree. Had Boromir still been with the company when they reached Edoras, I feel certain the Eowyn might just as easily have fallen for him. The problem wasn't Aragorn... and the problem wasn't really Eowyn. The problem was her circumstances. She had been relegated to the job of handmaiden for a fallen king with her likely future as the bride to one Grima J. Wormtongue. It only stands to reason that she would become enamoured with any "great" male figure who offerred her extrication from her plight. 

This is totally different than the situation between Aragorn and Arwen whose meeting was more akin to Thingol and Melian or Beren and Luthien. Of course, that's just my humble opinion... and I've been wrong before.

grond


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## Confusticated (Jul 22, 2004)

It was different. It wasn't mutual.

I guess it is only considered love at first site when it goes both ways.

As much as "lands far from the fields of Rohan" played a part in her feeling for Aragorn I do not believe that Aragorn himself was a much smaller factor. There was something about Aragorn, and I doubt Boromir would have sparked the same thing within Eowyn. I guess it can't be proven either way though. 

Whatever her reasons were, how are they superior or more true than that hasty love of Aragorn for Arwen? Is there any reaosn other than the fact that we know Aragorn and Arwen went on to end up together?


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## Saucy (Jul 22, 2004)

i think the reason aragorn did not take eowyn's love seriously is because in his opinion she was merely in love with "idea of him" and not him himself.
She was obviously captivated by something about him, perhaps she admired the fact he gave her and her people hope.

but i dont believe it was love at first sight for Eowyn, it was more so, "who is this stranger and can help us"

when she realised that perhaps he could. then she loved him, because he was what she had hoped for.


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## Moonflower (Jul 22, 2004)

I think Aragorn got her feelings right. She loved the concept of the dashing stranger, who got her out of a situation where she was no happy. It wasn't based on reality, but her perception of his qualities. 

And true love, especially in Tolkein  must be mutual, so obviously it couldn't have been real. Because Aragorn was destined for Arwen.

Besides, the writing makes her sound quite happy to marry Faramir in the end, she didn't seem just to "settle" but she came to love Faramir in a more mature, complete sort of way.


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## Artanis (Jul 23, 2004)

Grond said:


> The problem wasn't Aragorn... and the problem wasn't really Eowyn. The problem was her circumstances. She had been relegated to the job of handmaiden for a fallen king with her likely future as the bride to one Grima J. Wormtongue. It only stands to reason that she would become enamoured with any "great" male figure who offerred her extrication from her plight.


Agreed. I also think that she had become desperate by watching the proud kingdom of Rohan deteriorate under the evil influence of Mr. Worm. In Aragorn she may have sensed the greatness that seemed to be lacking among her own people. Aragorn himself would be wise enough to know this, so why not comfort Eomer, her brother? The fact that he himself had experienced love at first sight in the woods of Imladris many years ago has nothing to do with _this_ case.

No, I don't think Aragorn would have loved her, even if he hadn't been engaged to Arwen. He respected and admired her, and thought her beautiful, but I think she would simply have been too young for him.


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## Valandil (Jul 23, 2004)

I still hold to my earlier statement. It seems condescending to think little of Eowyn's initial love for Aragorn and I don't see her that way. I think she truly loved him - and was not just desperate because of her circumstances. I think that when she perceived that her love would not be returned, she first despaired - and then 'got over it' and moved on. She was aided in doing so by the gentlemanly fashion in which her love was handled by Aragorn. He was not dismissive, I think, but gentle, affirming... and yet created an appropriate distance for the situation. By intentionally 'under-stating' her love for him, he allowed her to move on with dignity intact.

I don't think Eowyn was too young for Aragorn. Sure, he was 60 years older than she was, but even if she lived to 100, he would outlast her by another 50 years.   Despite that, I think he may have been willing to open his heart to her... if he had not already given it to someone else.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Jul 23, 2004)

> No, I don't think Aragorn would have loved her, even if he hadn't been engaged to Arwen. He respected and admired her, and thought her beautiful, but I think she would simply have been too young for him.



Somehow I don't think Aragorn thought too much about age in a relationship . . . afterall, he was marrying an elf who was some 2,000 years older than himself! 

I definitely agree with where Grond is coming from. However, I can also see how Eowyn would only fall for Aragorn as opposed to any man she might come in contact with. I have met far too many girls in our world who have fallen in love with the Aragorn of the books. Aragorn was simply different from any other man in Tolkien's writings. Eowyn had a very good reason to be attracted to him! Afterall, Eowyn was surrounded by many different men of Rohan . . . why didn't she feel the same attraction for them?

Aragorn was too noble and too good to ever break his promise to Arwen. He would never break it in deed and would definitely never break it in heart.


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## Artanis (Jul 23, 2004)

Valandil said:


> It seems condescending to think little of Eowyn's initial love for Aragorn and I don't see her that way.


Why is it condescending? She had strong feelings for a man and misinterpreted those feelings as love. A common mistake, I should think.


Valandil said:


> I don't think Eowyn was too young for Aragorn. Sure, he was 60 years older than she was, but even if she lived to 100, he would outlast her by another 50 years.   Despite that, I think he may have been willing to open his heart to her... if he had not already given it to someone else.





Nenya Evenstar said:


> Somehow I don't think Aragorn thought too much about age in a relationship . . . afterall, he was marrying an elf who was some 2,000 years older than himself!


Ok,  but I wasn't thinking of physical age only, but also on maturity and experience from life. Eowyn was described as having just reached womanhood. With Arwen otoh, HE was the one who had to grow up and become mature before he could have her.


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## Valandil (Jul 23, 2004)

Artanis said:


> ...Eowyn was described as having just reached womanhood...



Sounds perfect to me! Guys...???


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## Artanis (Jul 23, 2004)

Valandil said:


> Sounds perfect to me! Guys...???


You silly Númenoréan.


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## Grond (Jul 23, 2004)

Nenya Evenstar said:


> ...Eowyn had a very good reason to be attracted to him! Afterall, Eowyn was surrounded by many different men of Rohan . . . why didn't she feel the same attraction for them?
> 
> Aragorn was too noble and too good to ever break his promise to Arwen. He would never break it in deed and would definitely never break it in heart.


Let us not forget who had the King's ear. Wormtongue was the guiding force behind Theoden at this time. Wormy thwarted both Theodred and Eomer in counciling caution as opposed to launching a preemptive war against Worm's real boss (an action which was advocated by both Eomer and Theodred). I doubt any other Rider of Rohan would have dared approach Eowyn as she was (at that time) seen as pending property of Grima. 

I stand by my original assessment that Eowyn could have fallen for any "gallant" man who came her way and offerred her a ray of dignity, strength and courage... all of which were in short supply in the throne room of Rohan.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Jul 24, 2004)

*shakes head* I'm trying to play devil's advocate here, and it's messing with my brain. 



> I doubt any other Rider of Rohan would have dared approach Eowyn as she was (at that time) seen as pending property of Grima.



Just because a Rider of Rohan would not approach Eowyn does not keep her from desiring one to. If Eowyn was indeed so desperate that she would fall for any "noble" man that would give her attention, then I would question why she was not fantasizing about certain "gallant" men of Rohan and wishing for their attention.

As far as I can tell, Eowyn neither longed for love nor sought it . . . that is until Aragorn came into her life. If anything, love repulsed her.


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## Grond (Jul 24, 2004)

Nenya, 

You are missing my argument completely. In Eowyn's mind, no rider of the mark could have her so any love wasted on one of her own would be doomed from the outset (at least in her own mind). Only someone from the outside (especially one who was of a lordly and noble lineage) would have been a potential ticket out for Eowyn. That is why I threw Boromir in the mix. Had he desired her, he could have sued King Theoden for her and he could have been a meal ticket just as could Aragorn. Gimli, Legolas and Gandalf weren't considered for obvious reasons. 

I'm not meaning to demean (cute play on words) Eowyn's feelings here... just explain what (to me) appears to be her underlying psychology. She is a beautiful woman, all but pledged to a man she hates who has ruined the father figure in her life. In my mind, she would jump at any dominant male who offerred her an out... but I could be wrong (but I don't think I am). 

Nenya... it is wonderful to again engage you in delightful debate.

Cheers,

grond


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## greypilgrim (Jul 26, 2004)

I think Aragorn was like a hero to her, a "knight in shining armor" ...and he probably gave her a feeling of hope and inspiration at a time when she was desperatetly lost and blind. He was in the right place at the right time (if he were in the mood for a shieldmaiden of Rohan that is  ) Plus, he was good looking, charismatic, and a fighter. Of course she would be drawn to him. He was the man!

Aragorn basically told her; "I'm not what you're looking for, I've got more important things to do, etc." and that just made her want him more I think. 

He did the right thing...he knew that Eowin needed to focus on other things, in a time of war for her people. Also, if there were no Arwen he definately would have been with Eowin though (IMO).


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## Elfarmari (Aug 3, 2004)

Grond, was Eowyn really 'all but pledged' to Grima?? It seems to me that he has been stalking her, but has no one's approval to do so. Gandalf asks him if his reward from Saruman was to take the woman he desired after the Men of Rohan were dead, saying, "Too long have you watched her under your eyelids and haunted her steps." Eomer replies, "That I knew already. For that reason I would have slain him before, forgetting the law of the hall." Rather than anything remotely approved, it seems to me that Wormtongue was obsessed but knew that his desire was beyond his grasp, hence he asked Saruman, not Theoden, to give him Eowyn.


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## 33Peregrin (Aug 3, 2004)

greypilgrim said:


> Also, if there were no Arwen he definately would have been with Eowin though (IMO).



Do you really think so? I think that no matter how perfect Eowyn might have been for Aragorn, it could not make him love her. Even if Aragorn saw how 'right' Eowyn would be for him, still, that cannot make him decide to love her.


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## HLGStrider (Aug 4, 2004)

If he did fall for her it would be in the aftermath. He'd be too busy before hand. . .and my instinct says he wouldn't. Besides, by that time she'd already have met Faramir.


I contend that it was real love. I have contended this before, and it is based securely on my own experiences with love. A love may start out over a shadow in a thought, but if you put enough will to it, and Eowyn did, it becomes something very true. Eowyn's tended towards despair and going into action. Mine tended towards flirting too much and then despair and who knows. Faramir? 

Anyway, I see enough of myself in Eowyn to know that she did have a love for Aragorn. Not quite on the level of Aragorn's for Arwen and definitely not on the level of that she would come to have for Faramir, but a form of love none the less . . .where is Rhi to tell me off?


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## Melian_the_Maya (Aug 4, 2004)

I think that Eowyn truly did not love in Aragorn more than the spark of Numenor and also his inner struggle. Women sense that sometimes without being told and they generally want to help, I think it's the instinct of having to bear and raise children. I think Eowyn herself did not really understand herself, although she gives us her little hints. She wants to go to battle with and for this guy and not to protect herself, but in order to break the cage around her. That is very important to understand.

On the other hand, Arwen's way of helping Aragorn is to take him out of indecision and guide him gently onto his path. She would have braved even the road to war if it would have helped more. But she gave him the flag of the King, and that is quite important. I think that Aragorn's type was not the warrior woman, but someone more quiet and gentle and that is why it was love for him in the first day he met Arwen and not when Eowyn met Aragorn.

Although I am more of an Arwen type of woman, I do respect the Eowyn type, yet we are very different from one another and my understanding of her deeds is limited. Tolkien certainly helped me with that  .


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## Niirewen (Aug 5, 2004)

Here's just what I think.

Eowyn was being suffocated: she had uncommon strength and bravery, but was trapped in the body of a woman. She wished to go to battle with her brother (and cousin, before he died), to defend her country and fight for honor, but being a woman she was instead forced to stay behind and care for her sickly king. She was caged, and wasting away.

Then she met Aragorn, a king by blood, and an honorable and valiant man, who had wisdom and strength, and had done many great deeds. Doubtless she admired him. But in my opinion, Eowyn's love for Aragorn was not "true love." I think it was admiration only, but deep because she was so desperate. He was a living example of her unreachable dreams. I think someone said "she loved the idea of him." I agree with that. He came to her in despair, and gave her a little hope, and she clung to that hope.

I think Eowyn realized this herself, when Faramir said:


> You desired to have the love of Lord Aragorn. Because he was high and puissant, and you wished to have renown and glory and to be lifted far above the mean things that crawl on the earth. _And as a great captain may to a young soldier he seemed to you admirable._ For so he is, a lord among men, the greatest that now is.


And after that it says...


> Then the heart of Eowyn changed, or else at last she understood it.


(That was from the chapter "The Steward and the King" in ROTK, by the way.)

So I don't think she ever "truly" loved Aragorn. But then Faramir came along, and helped her to realize this.. and they were meant for each other, I think.

But maybe I'm worng, and she did really love Aragorn. I don't know; we all have our opinions. That's mine. But where's Rhi anyway? I can't believe she's missing this! And she says it all so much better than I do.


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## greypilgrim (Aug 5, 2004)

33Peregrin said:


> Do you really think so? I think that no matter how perfect Eowyn might have been for Aragorn, it could not make him love her. Even if Aragorn saw how 'right' Eowyn would be for him, still, that cannot make him decide to love her.


What other choice did he have?


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## 33Peregrin (Aug 5, 2004)

greypilgrim said:


> What other choice did he have?



Maybe none, at the time. I just don't think he would have taken Eowyn, if he didn't really love her. And even if she seemed like the perfect person for him, it couldn't make him love her.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Sep 21, 2004)

Here is a quote I found in _The Letters_ the other day:



> _Eowyn:_ It is possible to love more than one person (of the other sex) at the same time, but in a different mode and intensity. I do not think that Eowyn's feelings for Aragorn really changed much; and when he was revealed as so lofty a figure, in descent and office, she was able to go on _loving_ and admiring him. He was _old,_ and that is not only a physical quality: when not accompanied by any physical decay age can be alarming or awe-inspiring. Also she was _not_ herself ambitious in the true politcial sense. Though not a 'dry nurse' in temper, she was also not really a soldier or 'amazon', but like many brave women was capable of great military gallantry at a crisis.



I found it fitting to the topic.


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## Astaldo (Sep 21, 2004)

Grond said:


> The problem wasn't Aragorn... and the problem wasn't really Eowyn. The problem was her circumstances. She had been relegated to the job of handmaiden for a fallen king with her likely future as the bride to one Grima J. Wormtongue. It only stands to reason that she would become enamoured with any "great" male figure who offerred her extrication from her plight.


Well to one poin I think this is right. Maybe see found on Aragorn something that could find in other men easily but in that time Aragorn was there so she fell in love with him.


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## Rhiannon (Dec 14, 2005)

Niirewen said:


> But where's Rhi anyway? I can't believe she's missing this! And she says it all so much better than I do.


 
Rhi has been...busy. But she's back! And she has talked about this subject before in a big long essay http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?p=374469&highlight=charis#post374469 back in the day....but you did a marvelous job on your own, Niri  *waves to everyone and goes back to unpacking her bags*


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