# Is Turin turambar a better warrior than the greatest high elves?



## Turin_Turambar (Feb 11, 2022)

The question is clear. Was turin turambar better fighter than the best-fighting high elves of the first age, especially when he lived in the nargothrond and brethil? I think he is one of the top 3 warriors of the first age. Because he killed glaurung, the father of dragons. I think glaurung is stronger than the balrogs. Because glaurung ruled the balrogs in the dagor bragollach. Glaurung is stronger than a balrog because He has ruled the balrogs.


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## 1stvermont (Feb 11, 2022)

It's a great question and I look forward to hearing what the loremasters say on this site. I am holding my vote until the arguments come in. As of now, I lean towards the elf warriors. But Turin belongs in the conversation IMO.


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## Sulimo (Feb 12, 2022)

I have not read any of the books in a long time, and this just my opinion, but I was say that Turin is peerless among all mortal warriors. There are none that compare. On the other hand the elves and the Noldor in particular were not mortal. Though I do believe that Turin is a better warrior then most elves Noldor included. I do not by any means think he is the strongest warrior. Who is, well that's a harder question. I would think most likely Feanor, Fingolfin, Maedhros, or Fingon. All of them several times faced down balrogs and/ or Morgoth. There are so few examples other then moments mentioned in various battles, and a few heroic feats that I could not begin to quantify which of them are the all around strongest. If I had to pick I would say Feanor or Fingolfin, but still not certain.


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## Turin_Turambar (Feb 12, 2022)

Sulimo said:


> I have not read any of the books in a long time, and this just my opinion, but I was say that Turin is peerless among all mortal warriors. There are none that compare. On the other hand the elves and the Noldor in particular were not mortal. Though I do believe that Turin is a better warrior then most elves Noldor included. I do not by any means think he is the strongest warrior. Who is, well that's a harder question. I would think most likely Feanor, Fingolfin, Maedhros, or Fingon. All of them several times faced down balrogs and/ or Morgoth. There are so few examples other then moments mentioned in various battles, and a few heroic feats that I could not begin to quantify which of them are the all around strongest. If I had to pick I would say Feanor or Fingolfin, but still not certain.


But glaurung is stronger than a balrog. And Turin killed glaurung. Also in Dagor Dagorath it was Turin who killed Melkor. He did what Fingolfin couldn't.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Feb 12, 2022)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> glaurung is stronger than a balrog


Is this actually stated anywhere it just opinion?


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## Turin_Turambar (Feb 12, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> Is this actually stated anywhere it just opinion?


In the dagor bragollach, the glaurung was leading the balrogs. And it has a much larger body in size than a balrog. While Tolkien himself has never compared the strength of dragons and balrogs, in my own opinion I guess the glaurung's strength is 2-3 balrogs.


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## HALETH✒🗡 (Feb 12, 2022)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> But glaurung is stronger than a balrog. And Turin killed glaurung. Also in Dagor Dagorath it was Turin who killed Melkor. He did what Fingolfin couldn't.


Did Turin kill Melkor? Maybe I have forgotten something.


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## Turin_Turambar (Feb 12, 2022)

HALETH✒🗡 said:


> Did Turin kill Melkor? Maybe I have forgotten something.


Dagor Dagorath...


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## Erestor Arcamen (Feb 12, 2022)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> In the dagor bragollach, the glaurung was leading the balrogs. And it has a much larger body in size than a balrog. While Tolkien himself has never compared the strength of dragons and balrogs, in my own opinion I guess the glaurung's strength is 2-3 balrogs.


Ok cool, I meant no disrespect I just was wondering, thanks


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## Turin_Turambar (Feb 12, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> Ok cool, I meant no disrespect I just was wondering, thanks


Already your first message had nothing to do with disrespect. I didn't perceive it that way. just like other legendarium fans, i speculating on issues that tolkien did not explain. that's all🙂


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## Elthir (Feb 12, 2022)

A Hobbit named *Banazîr Galbasi* defeated Shelob . . . does that mean he is a stronger, or better with a sword, that the battle trained Uruks that feared the Spider?

In any case, Túrin took a page from Sigurd, who slew the dragon Fafnir by lying in a pit and stabbing from underneath. Now I'm not saying this wasn't an amazing feat in itself -- it was, rather I'm merely saying that this doesn't _necessarily_ mean one has notable_ martial skills . . ._

[incidentally, Túrin needed a bit of luck too, and a stout companion: *" . . . so deadly was the heat and the stench that he tottered and would have fallen if Hunthor, following stoutly behind, had not seized his arm and steadied him."*]

. . . that said, Túrin* does *have notable martial skills, but we don't know that because he outwitted the Dragon, we know that because the text states it:

*"So valiant was Túrin, and so exceedingly skilled in arms, especially with sword and shield, that the Elves said he could not be slain, save by mischance, or an evil arrow from afar." *

Túrin In Nargothrond, The Children of Húrin.​
When Azaghâl had fallen, he pierced Glaurung's underbelly as well, with a knife; and it was said that even the dragon's mighty armour was not full proof against the great axes of the Dwarves (_Of The Fifth Battle,_ The Silmarilion)



Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> Dagor Dagorath...



No


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## Turin_Turambar (Feb 12, 2022)

Elthir said:


> A Hobbit named *Banazîr Galbasi* defeated Shelob . . . does that mean he is a stronger, or better with a sword, that the battle trained Uruks that feared the Spider?
> 
> In any case, Túrin took a page from Sigurd, who slew the dragon Fafnir by lying in a pit and stabbing from underneath. Now I'm not saying this wasn't an amazing feat in itself -- it was, rather I'm merely saying that this doesn't _necessarily_ mean one has notable_ martial skills . . ._
> 
> ...


How many times must I tell you my dear friend? what you first wrote is correct but whether dagor dagorath is a canon or not is completely personalized and left to the personal decisions of the fans. ie if someone accepts dagor dagorath as a canon but another person does not accept it as a canon, then neither is right or wrong. because this story is personal to everyone. It is left to people decision themself. Because Dagor Dagorath was never removed from the story by Tolkien. He was removed from the canon by Christopher Tolkien, Tolkien's eldest son. The reason why I think so is that Christopher Tolkien has already described Dagor Dagorath in different books many times in his 10-volume The History of Middle Earth series. I personally accept the existence of Dagor Dagorath. If you do not accept Dagor Dagorath as a canon, I respect it. Because after all, everyone has their own opinion.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Feb 12, 2022)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> Already your first message had nothing to do with disrespect. I didn't perceive it that way. just like other legendarium fans, i speculating on issues that tolkien did not explain. that's all🙂


Sounds good! Thanks for your posts, the speculation is part of why I joined TTF originally so seeing others continue to speculate is great!


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## 1stvermont (Feb 12, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> Is this actually stated anywhere it just opinion?



The balrogs are not even said to be Melkor’s most vital weapons in the war of wrath. Instead, dragons were his most powerful servants, and they were the most effective in the Great Battle. In Unfinished Tales, Voronwe said, it was “the great worm of Angband” that was “most fell of all the creatures of the enemy.,” In the battle of sudden flame, Glaurung led Morgoth’s assault, followed by Balrogs, and finally, orcs in a progression from shock troops to weakest. In the War of wrath, while defending, it was the opposite. First, the orcs deteriorated, then the balrogs were destroyed or fled, and Morgoth finally unleashed his dragons. The dragons had the most success, pushing back Valar, and the host, and the battle was in doubt for a day and night. Yet in the fifth battle, victory was not achieved by dragons, or balrogs but by the “treachery of men” as the Easterlings turned on the Noldor in a devastating flanking attack. During Tthe Battle of Sudden Flame, when elves and men were taken by surprise and, for the most part, fled or were defeated, orcs and Bbalrogs failed to capture Hithlum defended by Galdor the Tall, and it became “a threat upon the flank of Morgoth’s attack.”


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## Sulimo (Feb 12, 2022)

Even if Glaurung is stronger then a and I stress a balrog. These guys fought several balrogs at one time. Also Turin beat Glaurung by stabbing him from below, the others held off balrogs and Morgoth head on. Every head on encounter Turin had with the dragon, the dragon triumphed. I read the conversation you had with Alcuin concerning Dagor Dagorath, and it is not canon as he stated. When I rank Turin it is concerning his life until his suicide.

1stvermont,, that is an interesting point about the Balrogs and it makes sense. Think about Melian who was perhaps the most powerful being in Middle Earth for good in the First Age, but that does not mean that she was the best warrior. It makes sense that the balrogs would be similar, and be put to better use for their clever machinations and abilities rather then strictly their base power level. That being said they were formidable, and very few would have been able to stand against them in battle. I personally would rather face 1 dragon then a fleet of balrogs lead by Gothmog,


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## Turin_Turambar (Feb 12, 2022)

Sulimo said:


> Even if Glaurung is stronger then a and I stress a balrog. These guys fought several balrogs at one time. Also Turin beat Glaurung by stabbing him from below, the others held off balrogs and Morgoth head on. Every head on encounter Turin had with the dragon, the dragon triumphed. I read the conversation you had with Alcuin concerning Dagor Dagorath, and it is not canon as he stated. When I rank Turin it is concerning his life until his suicide.


Because of tolkien's son christopher tolkien, no one accepts dagor dagorath as canon. See, tolkien never removed dagor dagorath from canon. it was removed from the canon only by his son, who is the editor, christopher tolkien. so in this case we cannot say for sure whether dagor dagorath is canon or not. it is up to everyone's personal opinion. I'm sure if the films of the silmarillion come out, then they will definitely process the dagor dagorath. If come out film of dagor dagorath I wonder if you will say that it is still not canon in that case.


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## Sulimo (Feb 12, 2022)

That first point you made there is a fair point that Christopher made an editorial executive decision, but I will never ever validate something as canon just because someone included it in a film..

I am still recovering from watching Amazon's Wheel of Time lol.


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## Turin_Turambar (Feb 12, 2022)

Sulimo said:


> That first point you made there is a fair point that Christopher made an editorial executive decision, but I will never ever validate something as canon just because someone included it in a film..


ok i respect your opinion.but if you ask me christopher tolkien made an incredibly big mistake by removing dagor dagorath from the canon because dagor dagorath contained a happy ending for all created beings except evil ones. frankly, if christopher tolkien hadn't died, i would have met him to put dagor dagorath into canon.


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## Sulimo (Feb 12, 2022)

We should just be thankful that Tolkien had someone who so faithfully stewarded all of his work, and attempted to share and preserve all of it for us. It is amazing the care and love that Christopher did with his father's source material, and while he is not JRR, I believe that he tried to be as faithful to his father's intent and vision as he possible could, and I will trust in his decisions.
Though the ending you described does very much play into the Ragnarok Sigurd theme that then blends in the the Prose Edda's Balder reincarnation of hope (interestingly influenced by Christian Jesus narrative) adding a dash of Armageddon and second coming. All that is fun I agree, but I do not know what the author's true intent was about using that material in a final draft.


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## Elthir (Feb 13, 2022)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> How many times must I tell you my dear friend? what you first wrote is correct but whether dagor dagorath is a canon or not is completely personalized and left to the personal decisions of the fans.



When *Haleth* asked . . .



> Did Turin kill Melkor? Maybe I have forgotten something.



All *you* wrote in response was: *"Dagor Dagorath . . ."*

. . . but the Dagor Dagorath does not _clearly_ illustrate Túrin killing Melkor due to a one-on-one battle. . .

. . . and* if *indeed this story still existed in Middle-earth, we have Tolkien himself characterizing the whole thing as a Mannish Myth.

So now I'm giving *Haleth* a few more details 

*(my earlier "no" response was tongue-in-cheek -- its brevity compared to the brevity of your "Dagor Dagorath . . ." response).*




Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> He was removed from the canon by Christopher Tolkien, Tolkien's *eldest son.*



No 

Nor did Tolkien's youngest son remove it from the "canon" . . . unless you think the constructed Silmarillion is canon.

I do not. Nor do I see any evidence that Christopher Tolkien constructed the 1977 Silmarillion to be taken as canon.



Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> The reason why I think so is that Christopher Tolkien has already described Dagor Dagorath in different books many times in his *10-volume* The History of Middle Earth series.



Twelve volumes.

And Christopher Tolkien also describes, for one example, that the Elves were reincarnated by being born again as babies -- a long held idea ultimately rejected by Tolkien.

The point is, HME is a _textual history_ of Middle-earth, so if Tolkien holds to an idea, for example, from the 1920s to the 1950s, then yes, you might see that idea appear in print multiple times, which however, doesn't mean it wasn't rejected later, or re-characterized, from the 1950s to Tolkien's passing.



Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> I personally accept the existence of Dagor Dagorath. If you do not accept Dagor Dagorath as a canon, I respect it. Because after all, everyone has their own opinion.



My opinion -- based on Christopher Tolkien's opinion and the Tolkien-written evidence he produced to back up that opinion -- is that the _Second Prophecy of Mandos_ was rejected, and that* if* this End Times scenario (formerly within the Second Prophecy) still existed as part of the internal legendarium, it was to be seen as a Mannish myth.

My further opinion is that, even within the Mannish Myth, as it is worded, Túrin does not *necessarily* slay Morgoth due to one-on-one combat.


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## 1stvermont (Feb 13, 2022)

Sulimo said:


> 1stvermont,, that is an interesting point about the Balrogs and it makes sense. Think about Melian who was perhaps the most powerful being in Middle Earth for good in the First Age, but that does not mean that she was the best warrior. It makes sense that the balrogs would be similar, and be put to better use for their clever machinations and abilities rather then strictly their base power level. That being said they were formidable, and very few would have been able to stand against them in battle. I personally would rather face 1 dragon then a fleet of balrogs lead by Gothmog,



Agreed.


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