# Kingship over Noldor: Whose right was it?



## Confusticated (May 1, 2004)

A lot of questions might come up here but there is one I'd like to ask now: When Feanor entered Tirion during the darkening of Valinor, did he bring those of Formenos with him or not?


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## Link 2 (May 1, 2004)

the only ones at formenos were him, his sons, and his father.


I decided Fingolfin, but to tell the truth I think neither of them REALLY deserved it.

I guess Fingolfin was most looked at as King by the majority of the Noldor, because they did not like Feanor very much. Monarchy-wise, it should have been Feanor though.

Finarphin being King would just be wierd, to have the youngest brother be king over all. Even though he did become it when he turned back, but only for the Noldor still in Valinor (Tirion specifically).

Good question.


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## Manveru (May 1, 2004)

*Fingolfin rulez! Down Feanor!*

good question indeed...


Nóm said:


> A lot of questions might come up here but there is one I'd like to ask now: When Feanor entered Tirion during the darkening of Valinor, did he bring those of Formenos with him or not?


i wouldn't agree with Link 2 on that one (what about the ones that came to bring word of Melkor's strike and Finwe's death?):

from _The Silmarillion - Of the Flight of the Noldor_:


> But even as Nienna mourned, there came *messengers from Formenos, and they were Noldor* and bore new tidings of evil.


so... i guess Feanor showed up at Tirion not only with his sons (as i recall well, he has some host of Noldor to follow him; i could be wrong, tho)

as for the matter of kingship... hmm... i bet Feanor (blee) would have become king if Finwe had been in power to nominate any of his sons (it's not a secret that he loved him more), but then... Finwe was dead, so... election? (Feanor would surely lost that one):

from _The Silmarillion - Of the Flight of the Noldor_:


> And indeed when Fëanor began the marshalling of the Noldor for their setting-out, then at once dissension arose. For though he had brought the assembly in a mind to depart, *by no means all were of a mind to take Fëanor as King. Greater love was given to Fingolfin and his sons, and his household and the most part of the dwellers in Tirion refused to renounce him*...



--------
_Praise our King!!!_ (from the lyrics by Blind Guardian "Time Stood Still" inspired by the duel of Fingolfin & Morgoth and... Tolkien in general, of course )


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## Inderjit S (May 1, 2004)

> the only ones at formenos were him, his sons, and his father.



Fëanor, and/or Finwë, took some of his/their following with him to Formenos. I'm sure there is a lot of evidence to back that up from the books, but I'm sure that I cannot be bothered to type it out. Off the top of my head, Maedhros tells Manwë that all the other Elves in Formenos fled when Morgoth and his spider-girl, Ungoliant came, and that Finwë stood alone, thinking that the new darkness was some kind of new-fangled Vanyarin seduction technique, or some kind of plan by Irmo to shut off all the lights and steal Finwë’s collection of nude Pamela Anderson pics. There was no way some pathetic little Valar was getting the dibs on Finwë’s collection. 

Fëanor-Finwë was of course a duality, Finwë following his son like some kind of demented Ñoldoran with nothing better to do. Actually, that's quite a good description, if you don't mind me saying so, not that I mind if you disagree with me, it's just that I would prefer it if you didn't, which would help me with my casuistry and dumping words like 'duality' and 'Ñoldoran' into my posts for no other reason then being a pedant.

Fëanor, was as the elder son of the king the "heir" to the throne. There had been a lot of trouble between him and Fingolfin prior to the sword-to-da-breast (isn't it funny how that sounds the title of some kind of sordid hip-hop tune?) incident, Fëanor was told to get his bags packed and bugger off to Formenos. Not that Curufinwë Fëanáro had endeared himself to the masses before that incident, being a arrogant fellow, a lot of people disliked him anyway, and so this was just a good cause with which to ostracize him. 

Fëanor was called to that silly little feast on the condition that for some reason or another, he had to dress like a tramp. Some say Manwë stipulated he wear "nothing at all" (for everybody's safety ,honestly what they think he would do bring a AK-47 under his undergarments?) but after some objections from everybody, it was stipulated that his son Maedhros should be the one who came in nothing at all, but Maedhros did not come at all, preferring dodo hunting, and so the perverse plans of everyone apart from the people who weren't involved in the perverse plans were thwarted, by the one with the nice body and red hair.

Fingolfin and Fëanor were _reconciled_ before Manwë’s throne. What this reconciliation required is uncertain, but I'm sure it was some kind of naked mud wrestling or naked horseback riding, or all of the above. There reconciliation was of course, before the whole Finwë incident and so when Fingolfin blabbered on about following Fëanor, as far as they were concerned Finwë was alive and kicking and so the whole kingship incident would have not existed at the time, and they just did the thing to impress Manwë, or that suck-up Fingolfin just did it to suck up to Manwë. Fëanor was of course super-cool and didn't have to suck up to Manwë Súlimo. 

When of course Finwë was slain and Fëanor roused the Noldor to go to Middle-Earth and glove-slap Morgoth to submission the Noldor shouted "Huzzah! To Middle-Earth we go, where we can kill, something that rhymes with "go"" (which explains the Noldorin extermination of the kangaroo's, which in turn explains why the Noldor were so stupid).

Anyway, eventually Fingolfin says "Hey, Faenor may be older then me but he's a total git, I should be your king!", and most of the Noldor says "Yes, Fingolfin you should be the king!" which annoyed Fëanor immensely. 

Since most people preferred Fingolfin over Fëanor, and since Fëanor had made a total idiot of himself then Fingolfin's claim was more legit. regardless of hereditary rules on kingship. There was no point in having Feanor as the king because of tradition when most people preffeed someone else and accepted his claim.



> as for the matter of kingship... hmm... i bet Feanor (blee) would have become king if Finwe had been in power to nominate any of his sons (it's not a secret that he loved him more), but then... Finwe was dead, so... election? (Feanor would surely lost that one



Well given the fact that the only reason whereby there would have been a new king if Finwe died, I don't think such an event is likely.


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## Ravenna (May 3, 2004)

As no one had died prior to the murder of Finwe, I suppose there would be no real precedent to decide the line of succession. To us, it would be logical that Feanor, being the eldest would inherit, although, imho, he had forfeited both the right and the chance of popular support by his arrogant attitude and when he showed his total lack of self control towards Fingolfin.


Btw Inerjit, Maedhros at least couldn't have been that stupid. At least Dodo rhymes!  
(This new version of the Sil you have seems fascinating, are you perhaps writing your own verion? The Silly-marillion perhaps?)


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## Inderjit S (May 3, 2004)

Morgoth had been spreading lies about how Fingolfin and his lackey brother , as well as the Valar were planning to usurp Finwë’s throne and drive Fëanor from the lucrative Tuna business which the Ñoldor had. So there were lot's of problems about all that and all the princely rivalries in the house of Finwë Ñoldoran. They then began to polarize themselves into rival gangs or houses and made heroic swords and shields depicting many things beautiful and nice.

The Ñoldor were pretty disgruntled about the Valar prior to all the sword-to-da-breast fracas and there had been a lot of in-fighting, hair pulling and reading of Jane Austen amongst the Noldor. Fëanor wanted to get away from the cage that was Valinor. The Ñoldor thought he was crazy. They called a council, Fingolfin started to blabber on about Fëanor acting like a king, walking around with his er...bling bling and doing err...something....yes, anyway, when Fëanor heard Fingolfin moaning about the price of sports thongs and Fëanor’s arrogance ("Tis a disappointment that the thong-eth expensive, verily, Fëanor tis gathering many Noldor to him because of his Machiavellian politick, I would recommend that thy cut-eth the priceth of thong-eth so that many more can feel what it is like-eth to walk with so much vainglory and comfort between thy buttocks instead of wearing the uncomely pantaloons") and Fëanor came in, gave him a firm slap on the buttocks (The Noldorin version of the "kiss of death") and told him that he will never decrease the price of thongs or drive him out of the lucrative Tuna business....oh yeah and he also said something about Fingolfin trying to usurp his place as the legitimate heir if Finwë, but that is not important in the general scheme of things.

And so even if Finwë was not dead, nor was he likely to die, there was still a lot of trouble over the heirship.



> This new version of the Sil you have seems fascinating, are you perhaps writing your own verion? The Silly-marillion perhaps?)



Perhaps...perhaps not, mysterious are my ways and long are the...days?


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## Chymaera (Jun 1, 2004)

I have to vote for Fëanor.

Although the Elves of Aman never had to deal with a succession: Ingwë is still King of the Vanya, and Olwë is still King of the Teleri. Only the Noldor had Kingship problems, and they had that master spin-doctor Morgoth working against them.

The eldest might not always be the best choice, but it is the first choice.


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## Arvedui (Jun 1, 2004)

Fëanor was the right king, because he didn't wait for someone to take him as king, he simply took that position. Just as a leader should.

And he was an elf of action, proven when he lead the Noldor out of Valinor, and taking the fight to Morgoth. Unfortunately, he made a couple of horrible decisions on the way, but at least he acted, unlike the Valar who were too busy mourning, and only acted against the Noldor who were on their own side, instead of against their real enemy: Morgoth.


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## Artanis (Jun 1, 2004)

The Valar banished Fëanor from Tuna, but they did not take away his right to the throne. So imo Fëanor was still the right king, because he was the firstborn son of Finwë. Period.

Whether the Noldor had been better off with Fingolfin as king is another matter.


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## cniht (Jun 6, 2004)

It seems to me that the earliest kings of elves were chosen by the populace. So the king chosen by the majority was the right king when the elves were still young in their races.
Fingolfin lead the majority not only during the absence of the first king of Noldor but also in the march towards ME while Feanor and his house ran far ahead lest someone else would recover silmarillions before they did.


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## Ithrynluin (Jun 6, 2004)

cniht, no I don't think any kings of the Elves were chosen through a democratic process. They had specific and rigid hereditary rules, which is why women (such as Galadriel and Aredhel) were passed over.

So I agree with Chymaera, Artanis, and Arvedui, in that the kingship was, first and foremost, Fëanor's right as the eldest. Of course there are always exceptions in outstanding circumstances, such as the people preferring Fingolfin at that moment rather than the rash and arrogant Fëanor, which confirm the rule.


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## Brent (Jun 18, 2004)

Gorthaur said:


> cniht, no I don't think any kings of the Elves were chosen through a democratic process. They had specific and rigid hereditary rules, which is why women (such as Galadriel and Aredhel) were passed over.
> 
> So I agree with Chymaera, Artanis, and Arvedui, in that the kingship was, first and foremost, Fëanor's right as the eldest. Of course there are always exceptions in outstanding circumstances, such as the people preferring Fingolfin at that moment rather than the rash and arrogant Fëanor, which confirm the rule.



I agree, there must be some "rules" to determine who gets the crown and using those its determined its Feanor. I don't think his actions have any bearing on his right to the title, he could give it up but it can't be taken away.


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## Gil-Galad (Jun 18, 2004)

Feanor was the _Firstborn_ son of Finwe,King of the Noldor,I think that makes everything clear.

What is more Feanor had the qualities to be the King of The Noldor,although he was deceived by Morgoth and his life.

In conclusion we are talking about the greatest and most talented elf .....


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## Inderjit S (Jun 29, 2004)

Yes-but your ignore the fact that however much you like Fëanor and even though he was the first born-Fingolfin was more popular and well-liked-it is sensible to have a popular leader in any time, never mind in a time of war-having an unpopular one would cause too many schisms, but of course the Ñoldor were divided anyway. Though any decision to keep Fëanor as king would have led to a great (er) degree of polarisation. He couldn't take any back-chatting or criticism, unless it was from someone he liked or respected-and such people were few and far between.


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## Grond (Jul 10, 2004)

You have a number of issues going on here that haven't been discussed. 
1) Finwe would definately have supported Feanor's claim to the kinship should he have had a say in the matter.
2) Feanor had been removed from authority and any claim to the kingship by his banishment.
3) Finwe had also abandoned his right to the Kingship by following his son Feanor into banishment and favoring his eldest son over his other two children and his people.

I would argue that both Finwe and Feanor had given up their right to lead the Noldor by their prior actions. Feanor was the greatest elf in the works of his hands. He was also easily deceived, greedy, lustful as well as a many other less than favourable traits. He couldn't lead the people because they wouldn't follow him. He couldn't be their King because he cared more for his silmarils than he did for his people. 

Fingolfin was a far more effective leader. He listened to his people. He wasn't jealous and fiercely loved both Finarfin and Feanor. He didn't feel any ill will towards his brother Feanor until after he was betrayed and forced to cross to Middle-earth by the cruel Helcarxe. 

Fingolfin was the only person ever to fight a Vala in battle and also wounded Melkor numerous times. Feanor couldn't even stand up to a few Balrogs. Feanor was a mean-spirited and basically evil, selfish and cruel being who cared more about himself and his sons than he did for his people. 

Feanor didn't deserve the kingship.


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## Grond (Jul 10, 2004)

Gil-Galad said:


> Feanor was the _Firstborn_ son of Finwe,King of the Noldor,I think that makes everything clear.
> 
> What is more Feanor had the qualities to be the King of The Noldor,although he was deceived by Morgoth and his life.
> 
> In conclusion we are talking about the greatest and most talented elf .....


As I pointed out in my prior post, Finwe was not King of the Noldor. He had gone into exile and he died in exile. He was not the King of the Noldor. Fingolfin was and continued to do so.

As for Feanor. He was the greatest and most talented elf ever. He was also the most corrupt of the Noldor... the most evil... the most selfish... the most lustful... the most vengeful... well... you get the picture.


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## Grond (Jul 10, 2004)

Brent said:


> I agree, there must be some "rules" to determine who gets the crown and using those its determined its Feanor. I don't think his actions have any bearing on his right to the title, he could give it up but it can't be taken away.


Any king must have one of two things in order to be able to rule.
1) a people who want him as king
2) absent 1. he must have the power to rule his people by force.

Feanor had neither. Most of his people wanted Fingolfin and Feanor didn't have the power to force them otherwise.


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## Grond (Jul 10, 2004)

*Re: Fingolfin rulez! Down Feanor!*



Manveru said:


> ...so... i guess Feanor showed up at Tirion not only with his sons (as i recall well, he has some host of Noldor to follow him; i could be wrong, tho)
> 
> as for the matter of kingship... hmm... i bet Feanor (blee) would have become king if Finwe had been in power to nominate any of his sons (it's not a secret that he loved him more), but then... Finwe was dead, so... election? (Feanor would surely lost that one):


Actually, his sons were already there and were near witnesses to the death of Finwe... 


> from HoME X, Morgoth's Ring,
> 
> $8 'My lord,' said Maedros to Manwe, 'it was the day of festival, but the king was heavy with grief at the departure of my father, a foreboding was on him. He would not go from the house. We were irked by the idleness and silence of the day, and we went riding towards the Green Hills. Our faces were northward, but suddenly we were aware that all was growing dim. The Light was failing. In dread we turned and rode back in haste, seeing great shadows rise up before us. But even as we drew near to Formenos the darkness came upon us; and in the midst was a blackness like a cloud that enveloped the house of Feanor.
> 
> ...


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## Celebthôl (Jul 10, 2004)

Grond said:


> Any king must have one of two things in order to be able to rule.
> 1) a people who want him as king
> 2) absent 1. he must have the power to rule his people by force.



While i agree with point one, i find it hard to agree with point 2. I mean a person who forces rule over people doesnt deserve to be King, thats the Orc way, if you will, or Saurons i.e. forcing dominion over others! A true King would be like Théoden or Aragorn, where they are natural leaders, people love them freely and people, not of their own (such as the Rohirrim to Aragorn) should/would follow you not headlessly...but...hmmm...willfully, because they sense that magesty about you. I hope that makes sense...thats how i see it anyway.
Fingolfin (and his sons, the other rightful Kings) had this trate! E.g. Men followed their leadership, willfully and none (to my knowledge) hated them for being Kings and leaders of them.


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## Grond (Jul 10, 2004)

Celebthôl said:


> While i agree with point one, i find it hard to agree with point 2. I mean a person who forces rule over people doesnt deserve to be King, thats the Orc way, if you will, or Saurons i.e. forcing dominion over others! A true King would be like Théoden or Aragorn, where they are natural leaders, people love them freely and people, not of their own (such as the Rohirrim to Aragorn) should/would follow you not headlessly...but...hmmm...willfully, because they sense that magesty about you. I hope that makes sense...thats how i see it anyway.
> Fingolfin (and his sons, the other rightful Kings) had this trate! E.g. Men followed their leadership, willfully and none (to my knowledge) hated them for being Kings and leaders of them.


I never said anything about a "rightful" king. I simply said a King had to have the support of his people or be able to dominate them in order to enforce his kingship. Let's say that Feanor had the support of the Teleri and was able (through an alliance with them) to enforce his claim against Fingolfin's people... Feanor would be the King of the Noldor... no ifs, ands or buts about it... And... if I have the force and the power to enforce my claim... then I certainly have the "Right" to be King. By my own actions, I have made my own "right".


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## Celebthôl (Jul 11, 2004)

Grond said:


> I never said anything about a "rightful" king. I simply said a King had to have the support of his people or be able to dominate them in order to enforce his kingship. Let's say that Feanor had the support of the Teleri and was able (through an alliance with them) to enforce his claim against Fingolfin's people... Feanor would be the King of the Noldor... no ifs, ands or buts about it... And... if I have the force and the power to enforce my claim... then I certainly have the "Right" to be King. By my own actions, I have made my own "right".



Ooooh! I see what you mean!! Sorry my mistake! But if that happened to me, i wouldnt accept him as King!


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## Grond (Jul 11, 2004)

Celebthôl said:


> Ooooh! I see what you mean!! Sorry my mistake! But if that happened to me, i wouldnt accept him as King!


And, knowing how Feanor typcially dealt with people who didn't agree with him... he would have had you imprisoned at best or executed at worst. Feanor was the greatest elf but greatest at what??

Where are my ole friends Gil-galad or Maedhros to defend the poor, picked on Feanor??? LOL!!


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## Manveru (Jul 11, 2004)

Grond said:


> And, knowing how Feanor typcially dealt with people who didn't agree with him... he would have had you imprisoned at best or executed at worst. Feanor was the greatest elf but greatest at what??


nicely said *thumbs up*


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## Lhunithiliel (Jul 11, 2004)

If we are to "judge" the _right of being the king_, then I think most probably it should've been Feanor and that he became...
That is, if among the Eldar the right of the _firstborn_ was so strongly observed. It seems it was. Strange it is how they had come up to this idea, but that's another story! 

Besides, Feanor was a true leader, regardless of the poison in his mind "injected" by Melkor. It's wrong to judge him only for his deeds of the last years of his life. What he had achieved and done for his people before that is enough for him to claim the kingship.

Fingolfin might have been wiser and more tolerant and all ... Yet, even *he* followed Feanor. Why? Apart and except all motives he had, I am sure he respected the _right of the firstborn_ - that is the right of Feanor to be the King after Finwe's death. By this even he confirmed the right of Feanor to be the King of Noldor.


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## Grond (Jul 11, 2004)

Lhunithiliel said:


> If we are to "judge" the _right of being the king_, then I think most probably it should've been Feanor and that he became...
> That is, if among the Eldar the right of the _firstborn_ was so strongly observed. It seems it was. Strange it is how they had come up to this idea, but that's another story!
> 
> Besides, Feanor was a true leader, regardless of the poison in his mind "injected" by Melkor. It's wrong to judge him only for his deeds of the last years of his life. What he had achieved and done for his people before that is enough for him to claim the kingship.
> ...


If you use the "right of first born as your criteria then absolutely no judgement is needed. First born is the king. I again point out that Feanor made the Silmarils for himself. He lusted after Galadriel and according to some texts in HoME sought to capture the radiance of her hair co-mingled with the two trees. I again point out that Finwe had given up his "claim" to the kingship of the Noldor by accompanying Feanor into his exile. Both Finwe and Feanor "abandoned" their people by their actions. Fingolfin, on the other hand was both honourable and loyal. 

As you point out, Fingolfin never chose to assert a claim to the Kingship because he was such a loyal son and brother. These characteristics are what make him so attractive as a character and is why so many of his people were drawn to him and refused to follow Feanor. They saw Feanor's heart... and it was cold.


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## Confusticated (Jul 12, 2004)

In a late essay (as well as in the Later Quenta) Tolkien makes clear that Fingolfin did make claim to the kingship over the Noldor while Feanor lived, and did pursue this. While it is not stated in _The Silmarillion_, there is also nothing said that rules it out.

What we are told though, is that Fingolfin went because Fingon urged him, his words to Feanor before Manwe, he didn't want to leave his people (who would not renounce him if he would go with them) to the rash Feanor.


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## Maedhros (Jul 12, 2004)

> If you use the "right of first born as your criteria then absolutely no judgement is needed. First born is the king. I again point out that Feanor made the Silmarils for himself. He lusted after Galadriel and according to some texts in HoME sought to capture the radiance of her hair co-mingled with the two trees. I again point out that Finwe had given up his "claim" to the kingship of the Noldor by accompanying Feanor into his exile. Both Finwe and Feanor "abandoned" their people by their actions. Fingolfin, on the other hand was both honourable and loyal.


Finwë had not given up his kingship of the Ñoldor, he simply holded himself "unkinged" while accompaning Fëanor in Formenos. If nothing had happened, then Finwë would have returned to Tirion and assumed his kingship of the Ñoldor.
Note that Fingolfin is not as honourable as you would make us think. Remember that it was Fingolfin the one who spoke against Fëanor in the Council without the presence of his brother.
Remember that while Fingolfin said to Fëanor that he will lead and I will follow, when Fëanor spoke in Tirion after the death of Finwë, there was almost a battle between them. We have to note that Fingolfin indeed followed Fëanor afterwards.



> As you point out, Fingolfin never chose to assert a claim to the Kingship because he was such a loyal son and brother. These characteristics are what make him so attractive as a character and is why so many of his people were drawn to him and refused to follow Feanor. They saw Feanor's heart... and it was cold.


This is both right and wrong.
We can use _The Silmarillion_ account or the _Shibboleth_.
In _The Silmarillion_, it is indeed true that it is not mentioned that Fingolfin asserted his claim to the Kingship of the Ñoldor, and that it was his desire of not wanting to leave his people that drove him to follow Fëanor. (and his oath to his brother too).
In the _Shibboleth of Fëanor_, Fingolfin did indeed claimed the kinship of the Ñoldor and he even changed his name to Ñolofinwë.
From the _Shibboleth of Fëanor_


> Fingolfin had prefixed the name Finwë to Ñolofinwë before the Exiles reached Middle-earth. This was in pursuance of his claim to be the chieftain of all the Ñoldor after the death of Finwë, and so enraged Fëanor that it was no doubt one of the reasons for his treachery in abandoning Fingolfin and stealing away with all the ships.



As to who of the two had the best claim for the Kinship, it would have to be Fëanor on the grounds that he was the eldest son, yet it was his own actions before and after his banishment that harmed him. Fingolfin's position as the ruler of the Ñoldor in Tirion could not be supplanted by Fëanor, although Fingolin only became the King of the Ñoldor after the death of Fëanor.

*What about the Oath of Fingolfin to Fëanor?*
One might wonder if the fact that Fingolfin swore to Fëanor that he will follow him does not in fact would account to Fingolfin accepting Fëanor as the King of the Ñoldor.
The most simple answer would be yes, but one has to remember that when Fingolfin swore that oath, neither of them would know that Finwë would die. Also that this was a unique situation. No one had ever died (destruction of the hröa) in Aman, and certainly there were no other half-brothers either.
So, IMO, when Fingolfin decided to follow Fëanor he kept his word.


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## Lhunithiliel (Jul 12, 2004)

No leader is a true leader if he lets himself be influenced by the desires of others and if he lets himself serve to causes and aims of others. 

If Fingolfin got involved in Feanor's march out of Aman because he was "urged" by his sons, that definitely does not speak of him as a true leader. Were he a really great leader, he would've stood up for *his* cause firmly and would've not followed Feanor for no "urging" from nobody. He would've stayed in Tirion and would've kept his people with him, and only then he could've prove himself as a true King preventing the misfortunes that later befell on the Noldor. 
But he did nothing of that.



Grond said:


> If you use the "right of first born as your criteria then absolutely no judgement is needed. First born is the king. I again point out that Feanor made the Silmarils for himself. He lusted after Galadriel and according to some texts in HoME sought to capture the radiance of her hair co-mingled with the two trees. I again point out that Finwe had given up his "claim" to the kingship of the Noldor by accompanying Feanor into his exile. Both Finwe and Feanor "abandoned" their people by their actions. Fingolfin, on the other hand was both honourable and loyal.


But, Master, isn't the word "lust" too strong? Why ... all his achievements from the years before ... they were *all* a result from his everlasting desire to achieve perfection. This is not lust, IMO. He was attracted by beauty, perfection, light ... he aimed at achieving those in his works and he managed to. 
I don't understand why would *he* be blamed for the troubles of the world if it were the Valar who, by their passive behaviour and lack of vigilance or awareness let Melkor and Ungoliant destroy the Trees, spill blood and poison the minds of the Noldor; and not been "wise" enough to save on the precious light, only small a portion of which was enclosed into the Silmarilli. 
And 
This whole thing about the demand from the Valar that the Silmarilli were to be handed to them ... I don't see much sense in it. I have thought ... What if they had them. Would've that small portion of the precious light in the stones been enough to revive the Trees? I doubt it. Then why? 

But .. I'm going astray... I should sit and eventually write that essay that I've had the idea about for months - "The Children or the Jewels" .


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## Lhunithiliel (Jul 12, 2004)

VOTE , Maedhros!

VOTE!


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