# Of Valinor in the third age.....



## redline2200 (Jan 15, 2003)

In TTT movie Elrond says something to Arwen about go to Valinor. Well I read somewhere that at the end of the 2nd age Valinor was removed from the circles of the world. So is the movie in error? Or is what I just said not true? and if it is true how did it happen?


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## BlackCaptain (Jan 15, 2003)

well if this was true than Gandalf, Frodo, Bilbo and all them wouldnt have left over the sea at the end of ROTK. U must have read something wrong... no big...

And who says "that does not make sense, but you are very small" from ur profile? Doesnt treebeard say that?


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## redline2200 (Jan 15, 2003)

Yes treebeard says that in the movie, i know what you mean about gandalf and them but this book said that new areas were brought up in the west and they traveled there. The book is entitled _The Atlas of Middle-earth_ and it has been correct in every other place in it. I dont know, you are probably right cuz I think i would have heard of the dissaperance of Valinor if it ever happened.


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## BlackCaptain (Jan 15, 2003)

well ive never heard of this... does anyone have a qote?


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## Anamatar IV (Jan 15, 2003)

I really am not learned in this at all but I think Valinor was removed from the world (The sil) of Mortal Men-to prevent them from waging war on the valar again.

And Valinor isn't all of Aman...

or possibly Tol Erresea is where they went?  

Like I said-I am not learned in this...


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## Heathertoes (Jan 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by redline2200 _
> *I read somewhere that at the end of the 2nd age Valinor was removed from the circles of the world. *


Valinor was removed from the world. The world became round so that men could not get there any more. Elves could still get there though - the 'straight way' was still open to them.


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## Ghan-buri-ghan (Jan 15, 2003)

There's no contradiction: you get to Valinor (or Tol Eressea) from the Gray Havens. Valinor/Tol Eressea were generally one way trips (except for the Istari, who rode a boat back 1000 years before our story begins.)

I don't know if there is any authority about where the boats from the Gray Havens docked -- probably on Tol Eressea, but not sure. Once you go, though, you don't come back.


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## GoldenWood (Jan 15, 2003)

The undying lands (which includes Valinor and Tol Eressa) are removed from the circles of the world after the end of second age when the Numenor is sunk, so that no mortal would ever step on these lands. When a mortal takes a ship and goes west he eventually reaches middle-earth again. The way to undying lands is still open to Elves (immortals) though.


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## Heathertoes (Jan 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GoldenWood _
> *The way to undying lands is still open to Elves (immortals) though. *


Not all elves. Only the Eldar. Tolkien says so in a letter.


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## GoldenWood (Jan 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Heathertoes _
> *Not all elves. Only the Eldar. Tolkien says so in a letter. *



That's true. But I wonder how Legolas got to go there though!


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## redline2200 (Jan 15, 2003)

Ok I see, but 2 more questions, how did Sam find the way because he was mortal and I thought he went by himself. And also who made the world round? I am assuming Eru but I am not sure, i guess it could have been the Valar.


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## Gothmog (Jan 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Heathertoes _
> *Not all elves. Only the Eldar. Tolkien says so in a letter. *


 Could you please suply the number of the letter you are taking this information from? 

I found the following in letter 325


> The 'immortals' who were permitted to leave Middle-earth and seek Aman - the undying lands of Valinor and Eressëa, an island assigned to the Eldar - set sail in ships specially made and hallowed for this voyage, and steered due West towards the ancient site of these lands. They only set out after sundown; but if any keen-eyed observer from that shore had watched one of these ships he might have seen that it never became hull-down but dwindled only by distance until it vanished in the twilight: it followed the straight road to the true West and not the bent road of the earth's surface. As it vanished it left the physical world. There was no return. The Elves who took this road and those few 'mortals' who by special grace went with them, had abandoned the 'History of the world' and could play no further part in it.


 According to this all Elves could go west. It only states that the island of Eressëa was "assigned to the Eldar".


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## Nardil (Jan 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by redline2200 _
> * And also who made the world round? I am assuming Eru but I am not sure, i guess it could have been the Valar. *



That was done by Illuvatar (God in Tolkien's works). He did this to punish mortals after they broke the Ban of the Valar.


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## redline2200 (Jan 15, 2003)

So was the world flat in the first and second ages?


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## Tar-Minyatur (Jan 15, 2003)

Yep, the world was flat until the end of the second age when Numenor was destroyed and covered over by the sea. Then Arda was made round so that only elves could get to Valinor.


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## Heathertoes (Jan 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Gothmog _
> *Could you please suply the number of the letter you are taking this information from? *


I haven't got the book with me, but I know it was written in 1954 to Naomi Micheson(?).

In answer to the earlier point about Legolas finding the way, he was Sindar, wasn't he? Hadn't they initially answered the call? If so, he was okay to go.

Sorry if I've missed thios point through lack of concentration, but how did Gimli know he could sail to Aman?


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## redline2200 (Jan 16, 2003)

thanks for all the answers


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## gate7ole (Jan 16, 2003)

> But the promise made to the Eldar (the High Elves – not to other varieties, they had long before made their irrevocable choice, preferring Middle-earth to paradise) for their sufferings in the struggle with the prime Dark Lord had still to be fulfilled: that they should always be able to leave Middle-earth, if they wished, and pass over Sea to the True West, by the Straight Road, and so come to Eressëa – but so pass out of time and history, never to return.


This is the quote Heathertoes was talking about. (It's of course his/her credit).
But still this quote doesn't say that the Straight Road is closed to the Avari. I understand it that the Avari won't be interested in taking the voyage to the Undying Lands, since they rejected the offer at the first place. And that there is no promise towards them to be brought back to Aman. That is, they are allowed to come, but only for the sake of the other Elves. Still, no examples are known of any Avari ever to take the straight road, and that makes it more possible that none will ever do so.


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