# What do you think about Gollum?



## Bilbo Baggins57 (Apr 28, 2002)

What do u guys think about Gollum? Do u dislike him as much as I do, or do u feel bad 4 him?


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## Gamil Zirak (Apr 28, 2002)

I think he's a dirty little thief and sneak. He'd slit your throat in a heart beat if he was given the opportunity. I have no sympathy for him at all. He got what he deserved in the end.


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## The Necromancer (Apr 28, 2002)

I disliked Gollum, but thought Tolkien made a great character in him. I hated the way he talked, you couldn't really ever get much out of the guy, though I'm not sure how deep you would want to go in the mind of him. I think that ttt would be a bad book without him, all it would be is Frodo walking ten feet and getting shot by an Orc. As much of a nusinse as he was, I'm sure even if you asked Master Samwise,(although we'd have to ask Rose, cause he wouldn't admit it to anyone else) he was a help getting to Cirith Ungol.


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## ILLOTRTM (Apr 28, 2002)

Where's YayGollum? She ought to be here to defend him soon. Until then, I will. I think Smeagol is a hero. If not for him, so many things would have gone wrong. The poor lil' guy. It wasn't his fault he was overcome by the ring's power.


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## Merry (Apr 29, 2002)

I loved Smeagols character! Although a mudering little rascal who betrayed Frodo and Sam, I believe that Smeagol showed some remorse and genuinely regretted what he had become. Yet Gollum was far too strong for Smeagol and Gollum kept turning towards bad.

To hate Gollum is justified but you must admit that Smeagol deserved better and it is a pity that his good character didn't win through.

'Poor Smeagol'


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## Elias (Apr 29, 2002)

I didn't like Smeagol but I didn't hate him so much after all. He was a victim of the ring.


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## Niniel (Apr 29, 2002)

I didn't like Gollum, because he is evil and betrayed Frodo and Sam. But that was not really his fault, he was obsessed with the Ring. I think that after Gollum felt betrayed by Frodo at the Forbidden Pool, there was no chance of him turning back to good. Maybe only when he saw Frodo and Sam sleeping at Cirith Ungol, but he was too twisted by the Ring to turn back. 
My brother thinks Gollum is cool though....


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## Xanaphia (Apr 29, 2002)

When Yay Gollum gets back you guys are in trouble...
I for one liked Smeagol. He is nice most of the time and when he's bad it's becouse of the ring and that's Gollum not Smeagol! Smeagol had no bad intentions and there's no piont in getting mad at Gollum for it!


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## Merry (Apr 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Xanaphia _
> *When Yay Gollum gets back you guys are in trouble...
> I for one liked Smeagol. He is nice most of the time and when he's bad it's becouse of the ring and that's Gollum not Smeagol! Smeagol had no bad intentions and there's no piont in getting mad at Gollum for it! *



Good answer!!


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## Gamil Zirak (Apr 29, 2002)

Was it Gollum or Smeagol that killed Deagol? If I'm not mistaken, I believe it was Smeagol. He killed Deagol because he didn't get him a birthday present. So, Smeagol is still evil.


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## Merry (Apr 29, 2002)

Blah blah blah

Smeagol was instantly captured by the rings power and yes, committed the unforgivable crime of murder. I'm not saying Smeagol is totally innocent, I'm saying that it wasn't all his fault and he shouldn't be hated for acting in a way that the ring made him.

Would Smeagol have killed Deagol if it was a coin or gold he found???


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## Greenwood (Apr 29, 2002)

Smeagol/Gollum is a character to be pitied. Smeagol was ensnared by an evil power, the Ring, that was far beyond his powers to resist. He almost reformed when he saw Frodo sleeping before they got to Cirith Ungol, but he was interrupted by Sam and the moment passed. In one of his letters, Tolkien called this the saddest moment in all of LOTR. Gollum is a fascinating literary character, but I wouldn't want to spend any time with a real Gollum -- he was a treacherous murderer. But, I still feel sorry for Smeagol.


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## Lantarion (Apr 29, 2002)

Here here, Greenwood! 
I also think that he is a wronged creature, who chanced upon the Ring in his unfortune. Before he found the Ring he was simply another inquisitive 'hobbit'. But when the lust and power of the Ring found its way into his heart, he did terrible things (eg. killed Déagol, stole things invisibly).
He is a woeful and sad character, who should not be hated but pitied in his misfortune. Of course, even without the Ring he was an evil thing -- but only after he had been under its influence for over a hundred years! 
Poor guy, gollum gollum.. 

Defend your hero, Yay! Where are you?


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## Gamil Zirak (Apr 29, 2002)

So, you guys are saying that the ring has a power over you even if you've never worn it. I beg to differ. Let's look at the people who were suposedly "swayed" by the power of the ring without wearing it. They are Isuldur, Smeagol, and Boromir. The first and the last new what the ring was and wanted to use it themselves. Smegol did not know what the ring was and still he wanted it. Bilbo found the ring, but he wasn't even swayed to kill Gollum after he had it. I believe that the ring doesn't corrupt anyone that doesn't wear it. It's their own desires to have the ring that corrupt them. Both Isuldur and Boromir desired the ring, but they knew what it was prior to trying to get it. Smeagol did not know the powers of the ring before he killed Deagol. Smeagol was evil before he found the ring. The ring just magnified his evilness.


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## Lantarion (Apr 29, 2002)

Um, I don't think anybody has stated if the Ring had any effect without actually being worn.. 
And as for Sméagol not knowing the power of the Ring before he killed Déagol, I don't think he knew at all! He just felt powerful wearing it!


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## Merry (Apr 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Pontifex _
> *Um, I don't think anybody has stated if the Ring had any effect without actually being worn..
> *



Are you sure Pontifex, the power of this ring was fantastically strong and even being near it would make you desire it above all else?!

Remember that Bilbo found this ring in the complete blackness, the ring wanted this to happen and forced it's power upon Bilbo, just as it forced itself upon Smeagol. I think maybe Bilbo would have killed Smeagol if he never had hold of it first, luckily Bilbo never had to take it from anyone.

Smeagol may have been selfish and the ring magnified his greed but to say that he is outright evil is not right.

(IMO)

I do agree that Smeagol never understood it's true power, he liked the sneaking ability it gave him.


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## Gamil Zirak (Apr 29, 2002)

So, you're saying that the ring made Bilbo trip and fall on top of it. I don't think so. The ring did allow itself to fall off of Gollum's finger, but it didn't make Bilbo fall. Smeagol was just a brat who wanted what his friend had. He was just evil enough to kill him for it.


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## YayGollum (Apr 29, 2002)

Okay, here I am! I am a guy, scary capital letters person. sorry. What's going on here? I'm here to defend Gollum! Ummm...the name of this thread is what do you think about Gollum, so I will say that I think he was the greatest character Tolkien ever came up with. I'll come back later to defend him.


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## Goldberry (Apr 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Greenwood _
> *Smeagol/Gollum is a character to be pitied. Smeagol was ensnared by an evil power, the Ring, that was far beyond his powers to resist. He almost reformed when he saw Frodo sleeping before they got to Cirith Ungol, but he was interrupted by Sam and the moment passed. In one of his letters, Tolkien called this the saddest moment in all of LOTR. Gollum is a fascinating literary character, but I wouldn't want to spend any time with a real Gollum -- he was a treacherous murderer. But, I still feel sorry for Smeagol. *



I'm with Greenwood. I also think he was such an interesting and often entertaining character. I love the passages in the books with Gollum in them.


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## ILLOTRTM (Apr 29, 2002)

I'm sorry, YayGollum, I just always pictured you as a girl, I'm sorry!:O. lol, probably cuz I'm one! Why do you call me "Scary" all caps person? jw.


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## YayGollum (Apr 30, 2002)

Yay Gollum! Even the people who aren't huge fans of him have to admit that he's interesting and stuff! Also, I call everybody scary! I'm scary!


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## Eonwe (Apr 30, 2002)

its ok. YayGollum thought I was a girl for a long time. He probably still does.


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## YayGollum (Apr 30, 2002)

Augh! I'm sorry! Eonwe sounds like a girl's name! It's your own fault!


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## shadowfax_g (May 1, 2002)

I am just surprised at that new "I hate Gollum" threads appear almost every week and they gather a good amount of attention. It proves that he is a very much beloved character.


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## YayGollum (May 1, 2002)

Yay shadowfax_g! Exactly what I've been saying for forever! I wasn't able to visit one of my Gollum Clubs at another Tolkien place for a while and I found that it was still on the front page because the evil Sting person had been so engrossed in it! Yay Gollum!


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## Xanaphia (May 1, 2002)

I'm SORRY, Eonwe, but that REALLY sounds like a girl's name. I thought you were one myself. (This is actually ILLOTRTM, Xanaphia and I are at the same computer at school today, and I replied through her name. Ok by her.)


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## Smeagol_j (May 1, 2002)

*Gollum*

Go YayGollum.I agree with everything you say.I am currently reading the two towers,and it sounds to me like Smeagol is trying to help Frodo,but Gollum is fighting against him.Personally,I like Smeagol much better than Frodo.


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## YayGollum (May 1, 2002)

YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY Smeagol_j! Come to the Gollum Fan Club! You is cool! Boo Frodo! You have the right idea about Gollum, but I wish I could tell you what happens at the end! It's a good reason to like Gollum!


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## Smeagol_j (May 2, 2002)

*Gollum*

Thank You,YayGollum.I think Gollum is an innocent character that is wrongly used.He proves himself when he does not want Frodo to go to Mordor because it is a bad place.Do you agree?


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## Elias (May 2, 2002)

Smeagol, Smeagol why on Middle Earth did you kill Deagol.


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## Lady Legolas (May 2, 2002)

I don't like Gollum,but I almost felt bad for him..
and in every story you have to have a good villin.I think Gollum as a character in the story was great.


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## Elias (May 2, 2002)

YEAH... Whitout Gollum LOTR wouldn't be so great.


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## Lady Legolas (May 2, 2002)

I agree on that..


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## YayGollum (May 2, 2002)

See? It just keeps on being proven that even the people who don't like him have to admit that he was a great addition to LOTR! Of course, Smeagol_j, I'll agree with anything you say!


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## Wood Elf (May 2, 2002)

I have to feel for Gollum. Heck, haven't we all wanted to eat some nice crunchy scrumptious fishies?  I do feel for him though, he is so burdened by the effects of the Ring. The poor guy was just wrongly used, but he did do some good. I don't hate him, I think we all have a little of Gollum in us, the jealous, greedy, hating part of us that wants to be free of the misery. Yay Gollum! He really personifies (to me) a part of human nature, and I feel for the dude.


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## Lady Legolas (May 2, 2002)

gollum may have been wrongly used,and was badly effected by the ring... But,he had murder on his mind right from the begining.That is why I don't like him.How are you going to kill your friend,even for a very powerful ring?


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## Beorn (May 2, 2002)

But, don't forget, he saw the shininess of it, and was instantly attracted to it...

Think of how much he wanted it. He never complianed about a b'day present until he saw the ring...


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## Gamil Zirak (May 3, 2002)

I stated what I thought about Gollum on this thread a while back. A certain member PMed me trying to sway me in my views. Why they PMed me, I don't know. I was done with this argument, but now I've been drawn back in.

So here goes. Smeagol killed Deagol. Gollum did not kill Deagol. The ring had no affect on any one that wasn't wearing it. You can be swayed by *your own* desire to have the ring if (and only if) you know the power of the ring. The only person that tried to take the ring away from Bilbo or Frodo was Boromir. He was swayed by his desire to wield the ring against Sauron.

Smeagol's lust for shiny things was his downfall.


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## Khamul (May 3, 2002)

Ummmm, well 

Gollum Stinks! 

(Little inside joke....)


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## Bilbo Baggins57 (May 3, 2002)

Wow, I didn't realize how many people actually felt bad 4 gollum. It really surprises me. I still don't like him at all. He's greedy, a murderer, & a thief. I'm sorry, but I have no sympathy 4 someone like that.


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## YayGollum (May 5, 2002)

Not a very good inside joke. Argh!


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## Khamul (May 5, 2002)

LOL Yay. But anyways, nice to have another Anti-Gollum fan....


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## Rangerdave (May 5, 2002)

I think he more than likely smells of fish

RD


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## YayGollum (May 6, 2002)

Argh! Evil Bilbo Baggins 27000! Yay Rangerdave for saying nothing evil!


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## Wonko The Sane (May 6, 2002)

*Wait...*

I liked Gollum.

Especially when she gave Frodo that glass with the light in it.
That thing was bad ***Editted by Beorn***

I wish I had one of those.


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## wonko (May 7, 2002)

yeah i liked galadriel too wonko the sane but this is about gollum... i thought gollum was really pitiful and at the same time a really cool character... he was instrumental in the destruction of the ring and as such a very important person in the book... i feel sympathy for gollum because nobody in the book liked him and nobody likes me either  its also really sad how he had to live with two voices in his head battling about wether to do the right thing or not.


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## Gamil Zirak (May 7, 2002)

Frodo liked Gollum, or at least had pitty for him.


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## wonko (May 7, 2002)

i agree, frodo did have pity for him but i doubt that he REALLY liked him... at first frodo said he wished bilbo had killed gollum, but maybe he grew to like the creature because he'd gone through the same torment


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## Wonko The Sane (May 7, 2002)

First of all I like you Wonko.
Second of all I liked Gollum.

I'm a stupid tool and I believe in giving second chances as well as the inherent goodness of beings...

Too bad Gollum betrayed Frodo and Sam.
Although I suppose he did his good in the end.


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## Gamil Zirak (May 7, 2002)

Ah, but Gollums good in the end wasn't intentional. He just took the ring from Frodo (by force) and happened to fall into the fires of Mount Doom in the process.


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## wonko (May 7, 2002)

yes, that is true... there was some bible parable about a father that asked two of his sons to do something... one said no and did what the father said and the other said yes and did not... jesus says that the person that did the deed was in the right and is trying to show that intentions aren't important as long as the right thing gets done...


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## YayGollum (May 7, 2002)

Thank you, both Wonko's. Argh! Evil Zirak person! Ooo! I love the Bible reference! I will definitely use that!


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## wonko (May 7, 2002)

yeah, you're welcome, i think gollum isn't as bad as everyone thinks and like i said deserves some credit... (sigh), well at least his memory lives on in the minds of all of us...


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## Gamil Zirak (May 7, 2002)

Wonko - Where did you find that in the Bible? I'd be interested in reading the parable.


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## wonko (May 7, 2002)

i'll find it zirak... i'm not sure where it was... hold on i'll have to go round up a bible


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## wonko (May 7, 2002)

Yes, here it is.... Matthew chapter 21, verses 28-32 (that's in my Bible, it may vary... its called the parable of the two sons)....it says: 
'What is your opinion? A man had two sons. He went and said to the first, "My boy, you go and work in the vineyard today". He answered, "I will not go", but afterwards thought better of it and went. The man then went and said the same thing to the second son who answered, "Certainly, sir", but did not go. Which of the two did the father's will?" 'The first' they said. Jesus said to them, "I tell you solemnly, tax collectiors and prostitutes are making their way into the kingdom of God before you. For John came to you, a pattern of true righteousness, but you did not believe him, and yet the tax collectors and prostitutes did. Even after seeing that, you refused to think better of it and believe in him.'

So, like I said, I think this is trying to show that what good you do is different from what good you intended to do... So I think that Gollum did good though he doesn't mean to, and by Jesus' definition he would make it into Heaven (therefore he is good)... I think I saw a post asking if Gollum would be allowed into the Blessed Realm if he had lived and I think this shows that he would have... So yay for Gollum!


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## Gamil Zirak (May 7, 2002)

That parable is refering to the intentions of the two sons. It's comparing their actions and words. It means nothing to say you will do something and then not do it. Hence, actions speak louder than words.

If Gollum had intentionally thrown himself into the fires of Mount Doom, then he would fit the parable. He accidentaly fell in so it doesn't apply to him.


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## Goro Shimura (May 7, 2002)

Even if Gollum had repented, I don't think he would have enjoyed going to the Blessed Land.

Remember what Lembas and those ropes did to him? It'd be much worse in "Elfland."


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## wonko (May 7, 2002)

Zirak, you said that actions are louder than words so wouldn't Gollum's actions (destroying the ring) be more important than the fact that he didn't mean to do it? yes, Gollum did not intend to destroy the ring, and neither did the one son intend to work for his father, but he did it anyways... the son did the right thing without actually intending to and Golloum destroyed the ring without intending to... the son is good because of this and so Gollum to, at least for this small time, was good... it doesn't matter whether they meant to do it its that they actually did it...


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## Gamil Zirak (May 7, 2002)

The key to your parable is: 


> but afterwards thought better of it and went.


The one son said he wouldn't do something, but then thought about it and desided it was the right thing to do. The other son said he would do it with no intentions of doing it. You can't just talk the talk; you have to walk the walk as well.

Although Gollum almost thought better of leading Frodo in Sam into Shelob's lair, he still did. Gollum accidently destroyed the ring. He wasn't told to destroy it and said no, then he turned around and destroyed it. His whole purpose was to get the ring by any means possible.


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## YayGollum (May 8, 2002)

Yay for actions being louder than words! Gollum is the hero! Did he not save the day? So what if Gollum never said to himself, "Hey, how's about I go save Middle Earth now?" He still saved the day! That's my reason for thinking he's cool. Wonko, too bad about that parable thing.


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## Gamil Zirak (May 8, 2002)

Those weren't Gollums actions. Gollums action was to take the ring at all costs. He was just clumsy and fell into the fires of Mount Doom.


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## YayGollum (May 8, 2002)

Yes, was trying to get the Ring at all costs. Didn't he promise to never let Sauron get it? Did Gollum save the day or not? I say he did because noone else could have done it at the time! Those were Gollum's actions! What version are you reading?


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## Gamil Zirak (May 8, 2002)

His action was to get the ring at all costs. Then he fell into the fires of Mount Doom. If he had jumped in to destory the ring instead of accidentaly falling in, then he would be the hero. Don't get me wrong, I think Gollum played an integral part in the book. Without him Frodo and Sam woulnd't have gotten into Mordor. I'm just not real crazy about him, that's all.


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## YayGollum (May 8, 2002)

Yay for Gollum playing an integral part! The best one! The one that destroyed the Ring! Hey, if you're not going to call Gollum the hero, what would you call him? To me, hero is the best term.


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## Wonko The Sane (May 8, 2002)

Look at it this way Zirak.
The father tells his two sons to go pick grapes in the vineyard, k? With me so far?
Good.
And the one son says, "Hell no!" and the other says "Oh yes, sir." 

The one that says "yes" goes off to play in traffic or lie with some women or something and in the meantime the other son goes to eat some grapes from the vineyard.
He's pretty hungry and grapes are yummy so he takes this big-arse basket and loads it full of delectable purple fruity things.
And then he goes to sit down. He eats..but soon gets full after only a handfull of grapes.
He did the father's will whether he intended to or not because now he has this huge-arse basket of grapes that he has no use for.
And his father is still pleased because his will was done.

The message here is that whether Gollum intended to or not he destroyed the ring and saved the world. He did the will of good.

Besides we don't know if he meant to jump in or not. I mean, studys of Gollums character up to the point of his demise have shown that he probably wouldn't have cast himself into the Cracks of Doom, however maybe he DID do it on purpose. Perhaps so that nobody could come between him and his Precious ever again.
The book merely says:
"And with that, even as his eyes were lifted up to gloat on his prize, * he stepped too far, *toppled, wavered for a moment on the brink, and then with a shriek he fell. Out of the depths came his last wail _ Precious, _ and he was gone."

While the passage would make it seem as if his death was accidental we do not know for sure whether it was or not.
He took one step too far, was it intentional?
Perhaps, although not likely. 

Even given the probably accidental nature of his death he did his "father's will".
And while Frodo and Sam were undoubtedly the heroes of the situation, so too was Gollum.
Without him as Frodo says, "I could not have destroyed the ring. The Quest would have been in vain, even at the bitter end. So let us forgive him! For the Quest is achieved, and now all is over."

Gollum DID do good.
And Jesus would've rewarded him...right?
So why shouldn't we?


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## Wonko The Sane (May 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by YayGollum _
> *Yay for actions being louder than words! Gollum is the hero! Did he not save the day? So what if Gollum never said to himself, "Hey, how's about I go save Middle Earth now?" He still saved the day! That's my reason for thinking he's cool. Wonko, too bad about that parable thing. *



I'm not so sure that the parable thing didn't work...I am inclined to believe it did.

Wonko is excessively smart.
(It runs in the family.)


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## Gamil Zirak (May 8, 2002)

WTS - There's a big difference between your understanding of the parable wonko posted and what you said. Here it is:


> but afterwards thought better of it and went



That's the key to the whole parable. He thought better of what he said no to and decided he should go ahead and do it. In your story, the guy accidently does it. That's not the same thing.

Yay - Websters dictionary gives us three definitions of the word here. They are:
1 a : a mythological or legendary figure often of divine descent endowed with great strength or ability b : an illustrious warrior c : a man admired for his achievements and noble qualities d : one that shows great courage
2 a : the principal male character in a literary or dramatic work b : the central figure in an event, period, or movement
3 : an object of extreme admiration and devotion

Let's look at them one at a time. 1) Gollum is not a mythological or legendary figure often of divine descent endowed with great strength or ability, he is not an illustrious warrior, he isn't a man admired for his achievements and noble qualities, and he isn't one that shows great courage. 2) He is not the principal male character in a literary or dramatic work or the central figure in an event, period, or movement. 3) He is not an object of extreme admiration and devotion (well, only by you).


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## Wonko The Sane (May 8, 2002)

Wonko and I have the same opinion.
He agrees with me on this point as we discussed it at length last night.

Yes. The parable does say that he thought better of it and went.
Saying that actions speak louder than words.
And as YayGollum said Gollum's actions speak louder than his words.

In one of my OTHER favorite books it says that "The spirits mark distinction between intention and deed." Therefore something you did that was bad for good reasons is still bad, although your intentions were good you are still held accountable.
And something you did that was good for bad reasons, or even by accident is still good and you are still given the props for it.

And as for the dictionary definition of hero:
"b : an illustrious warrior c : a man *admired for his achievements * and noble qualities

I dunno about you, but I sure admire Gollum for saving the world...whether he meant to or not.

He's not a hero in the classic sense of someone riding to his doom, swords and saddle blazing, in order to save the world.
He is an inadvertent hero. But I would say a hero nonetheless.


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## My_Precious (May 8, 2002)

AAAAA!!!! I sooo tired with all this arguing! He was just one corrupted old hobbit who suffered, but still managed to destroy the ring!
By the way, if you don't like Gollum, and want to complain about it in a mile-long post, you can go to any other 10234345th thread about the same subject, and do it there... Sorry, just had to say it, because it becomes really annoying to see all these "I hate Gollum" and "I hate Gollum fans" threads popping up all over the forum!


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## Wonko The Sane (May 8, 2002)

The forums are here for us to argue and discuss things like this.
If you don't like it don't read the thread.
And to all those would-be Gollum haters:
How could you kick a poor dog when he's down?
It's just mean.
Stop it.
The poor wretch wasn't always like that. He was consumed with Ring-Lust.


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## Gamil Zirak (May 8, 2002)

I don't hate Gollum. The past few posts haven't been about whether we liked or disliked him. They've been about whether we believed his actions justified him as a hero and/or would allow him into the blessed realm.

I'm glad he was in Tolkien's stories. He also played a key role in the destruction of the ring (by accident of course). I'm just not big on the idea of calling him a hero.


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## Wonko The Sane (May 8, 2002)

Hey, I hear ya.
I was a bit wary to call him a hero at first, and still am.
But for lack of a better word I'd say he is an inadvertent hero.

And I didn't mean you hated him.
That was in response to My_Precious who sent out a call to all Gollum haters.


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## Gamil Zirak (May 8, 2002)

WTS - I was refering to My_Precious when I said I didn't hate him. I knew you knew I didn't.


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## Wonko The Sane (May 8, 2002)

*googly eyes*

Wow...that's a lot of misunderstandings!


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## wonko (May 8, 2002)

hey, thanks for getting my back sis', the library was closed today for people taking AP Spanish test... I have nothing more to say other than I agree with wonko the sane and that I personally think Gollum is a hero because he saved the world... period, the end, none of us are him so we don't know his intentions and JRR Tolkien is dead... all we can do is speculate and give are opinions


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## YayGollum (May 8, 2002)

Yay for other people with library woes! I thought I was the only one! Well, looks like the day is saved thanks to me and the two scary Wonko people! What does everyone else think of Gollum?


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## wonko (May 8, 2002)

pffff, who cares what other people think? no, just kidding... we are scary? bwahahahaha, thats cool....


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## YayGollum (May 8, 2002)

I call everybody scary. I'm scary, too! Anyways, yes, it would be nice if other people showed up to say what they thought of Gollum instead of people starting arguements. Ack!


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## wonko (May 8, 2002)

i agree, but i think the arguments are an essential part of tthe message board as long as they are on topic and don't get out of hand... but i too would like to hear what people think about gollum


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## Wonko The Sane (May 9, 2002)

Me too.

I always felt sorry for the guy. It wasn't his fault that he had become so twisted. It was Ring-Lust.

I have a soft spot in my heart for the guy. I'd like to hear what others think.

BTW, I like how Wonko has gone from 10 to 45 posts in the past 3 days.

He has to catch up with me...I've been here a week and I've outpaced him already.


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## wonko (May 9, 2002)

i think that that is very interesting as well but we must take into consideration the complete lack of time i have... lets see, i have a 30 minute lunch, you have a 3 hour lunch.... i wonder who has more time? anyways, SOMEONE ELSE POST ABOUT GOLLUM!!! i really want to know what others think!


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## YayGollum (May 9, 2002)

We're probably scaring them away. oh well.


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## wonko (May 9, 2002)

so true, so true, but oh well, the more we post the longer this will stay on the top of the list so maybe someone will look at it!!!


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## Wonko The Sane (May 9, 2002)

I am taller and/or smarter than you.


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## YayGollum (May 9, 2002)

Aha! Good idea! Also, do what? Was that taller/smarter thing to just to keep this up? Also also, I'm here for another 45 minutes! I barely talked the librarian out of kicking me out! Yay me!


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## Oren (May 25, 2002)

I think that he is pretty cool. He probably is really kinda scary lookin' in real life though! I have seen some pretty wild pictures of him. But otherwize I think he is cool. I bet he was cool before the ring started to take him over.


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## DRavisher (May 25, 2002)

I don't like Gollum, but it's not his fault that he ended up as he did. If there is a guy you dislike, can he be blaimed for being as he is?


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## Bilbo Baggins57 (May 25, 2002)

Depends on the situation, DRavisher. Basically you're asking if Gollum can be blamed 4 being the way he is. He is to blame 4 his ways. U people argue about the whole Smeagol vs. Gollum deal. Someone said that Smeagol was the good side of him, gollum the evil side, etc. Smeagol was the one who killed his best friend for the ring. He only became gollum after he was isolated from everyone else & lived alone in the Misty Mountains for years & years. The ring doesn't "corrupt" a person unless they have some evil in them to start out with. Bilbo often felt the power of the ring & was reluctant to get rid of it, but he never did anything bad while he had it. He didn't even mean to put it on; he put his hand in his pocket while running from gollum & it slipped on to his finger. Bilbo wouldn't have killed anyone for it. Boromir knew what the ring was & only wanted it so he could use it for his own power & save Gondor.


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## Oren (May 26, 2002)

*But Gollum IS cool*

Why does everbody Hate Gollum??????? I fell bad for him..... I don't get why everybody is so mean to him. He has feelings too ya know. Do ya want me 2 come up to u and say that u r evil? 'Cause u r being evil right now!!! 

But I think Gollum is cool..ya I do!!!!!!!!


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## Gamil Zirak (May 27, 2002)

Wormtongue has feelings too. So does Sarumand and Sauron. Let's be nice to these guys. They were just missunderstood and different. Can't we all just get a long.

!!!!!!!!!!Sarcasm!!!!!!!!!!


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## Lantarion (May 27, 2002)

Ah, but let's not forget that the mentioned people were seduced to a greater evil, and that none of them ever attempted to redeem himself.
Sauron. Originally a Maia of Aulë, but turned to evil by Melkor.
Saruman. Originally a Maia of Aulë, but turned to evil by greed (so by himself). Never tried to redeem himself.
Wormtongue. Originally (possibly) a good Man, eager to help the King Théoden. Turned to evil by Saruman, and by promises of wealth. Redeemed himself by slaying Saruman. 

So I think that Gríma is the only one of the three that can be felt sorry for, because he was originally good, and because he did try to redeem himself (beore the hobits shot him).


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## Elu Thingol (May 27, 2002)

I like to think of Gollum as a classic case of Doctor Jekel and Mr. Hyde. It is almost like the ring splits Smeagol into two different people Gollum(his evil self) and Smeagol(his good self). The ring not only splits him into two people but it amplifies the power of his evil self. Another thing I think is quite interesting is that when Gollum loses the ring Smeagol starts to break free because without the ring Gollum begins to lose his power over Smeagol. So Gollum begins to desperately search for the ring..... and you know the rest of the story.


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## Oren (May 28, 2002)

You said that before.......
But I guess i can agree with u. He seemed ok at first and then he kinda turned evil. But I still like him!


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## Gamil Zirak (May 28, 2002)

The first time we meat Gollum in the Hobbit he was evil. We never saw his inocent (if he even had one) personality. In fact, we have no proof of it because the first thing we are told he did was kill his friend Deagol.


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## Khamul (May 28, 2002)

In the hobbit, Gollum was described as really an evil creature. He seemed to have no intention of good, and he really never did. Is Hitler a hero because he caused Germany to be free after his death? Is Nero a hero because he caused the rebuilding of Rome? Actions and intentions are different things, judged on different scales. If someone is trying to assasinate the president, and he happens to miss and kill a male model(reference to Zoolander....) who is trying to kill the president as well, does that him a hero?

(Sorry, Im tired....)


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## Elu Thingol (May 29, 2002)

What are you talking about? Of course Hitler and Nero weren't heroes they were tyrants! And of course Gollum was evil in the hobbit he was still under the power of the ring.


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## Theoden (May 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Merry _
> *To hate Gollum is justified but you must admit that Smeagol deserved better and it is a pity that his good character didn't win through.*



I think that you are right in that, although Smeagol was a villan to begin with (I mean, he murdered his friend to get a little ring), Tolkien seems to draw a picture of an inner battle going on inside of Gollum, where the old, shrivled little hobbit wants to come out and try once more to be something. I think Smeagol, for the first time in 500+ years, felt loyalty and love for something besides the ring. You are right in saying that his good character was just too weak to win the fight. I pity him mor than hate him.


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## Khamul (May 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Mithrandir2003 _
> *And of course Gollum was evil in the hobbit he was still under the power of the ring. *



"Gollum" was always under the power of the ring. He only lives for it. That was his only purpose of life, to regain the ring.


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## YayGollum (May 29, 2002)

Yay Gollum! (and the people who feel sorry for him)


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## Wonko The Sane (May 31, 2002)

I like fish.
Yay fish.


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## Trisana (Jun 1, 2002)

Ever since I first read _The Hobbit_, Gollum has been my favorite character. I'm not sure why, but I always seem to be attracted to the weird/evil characters.  Gollum is a lot more interesting than the rest of the characters. He's one of the few people with any mystery about his loyalties, and I like that. Most of the characters are just black or white, good or evil, but Gollum is in the grayish area, and I find that cool. Plus, he _did_ save the day in the end. Sort of. Okay, so it was an accident, but I don't care. Gollum is cool, and I'm weird 'cause I like Gollum. Yeah. I'm going now, okay?

-Trisana, who is embarrasing herself in her first post


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## My_Precious (Jun 1, 2002)

Yay Trisana and her first post!
Welcome! You should go to the Gollum Fan Club Thread!


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## Trisana (Jun 1, 2002)

Yay me!
Thank you!  So, where is the Gollum Fan Club Thread? I'm still kind of lost around here...

-Trisana


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## Gamil Zirak (Jun 1, 2002)

Although I'm not crazy about Gollum or recomend that you join the club, you can find it here.


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## YayGollum (Jun 2, 2002)

Ummm...Yay Gamil Zirak?


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## Trisana (Jun 2, 2002)

Thanks for the link, Gamil Zirak! 
*looks at thread*
Whoa... that is one _long_ thread! Oh, well. I'll catch up sometime!

-Trisana


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## YayGollum (Jun 3, 2002)

You don't really have to read it all. We talk about all kinds of things over there. Glad to have you with us! Yay Fellow Gollum Fans!


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## Xanaphia (Jun 3, 2002)

Since the question was What do you think about Gollum, I think he is the sad result of the rings cruel ability. He is a horrible little monster and I feal no pity for him whatsoever! However YayGollum don't get me wrong if the question was what do you think about Smeagol then I would have a bit of a different answer. Smeagol is the creature to be pitied. The name Gollum was given to him only after he became currupted by the ring. Smeagol is what he was and Gollum was what he became. Smeagol is one of my favorite creatures in Mittle Earth and of course I pity him, but Gollum is a nasty little sneaky wrench!


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## Oren (Jun 3, 2002)

Ya what ever........

No I get your point.


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## YayGollum (Jun 3, 2002)

I also get your point, but I just usually say Gollum because it takes less time to type. Whoops!


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## Gamil Zirak (Jun 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by YayGollum _
> *Ummm...Yay Gamil Zirak?  *


Thanks. I deserved a Yay for that. I may not like gollum, but that doesn't meant that I wouldn't help anyone on the forum with something about him.


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## DGoeij (Jun 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Xanaphia _
> *Since the question was What do you think about Gollum, I think he is the sad result of the rings cruel ability. He is a horrible little monster and I feal no pity for him whatsoever! However YayGollum don't get me wrong if the question was what do you think about Smeagol then I would have a bit of a different answer. Smeagol is the creature to be pitied. The name Gollum was given to him only after he became currupted by the ring. Smeagol is what he was and Gollum was what he became. Smeagol is one of my favorite creatures in Mittle Earth and of course I pity him, but Gollum is a nasty little sneaky wrench! *



Witty, so it's Smeagol for president now. All we need to do is to get a good shrink and drag the little fellow out of Gollums skull. 
No wait, let's get some bibles and garlic! I'll warm up:
BEGONE FOUL DEMON. LEAVE THIS CHILD! IN NOME DI PATRI ET SPIRITUS SANCTI! (did he buy it?)


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## Elu Thingol (Jun 3, 2002)

What exactly are you saying DGoeij. That Gollum is not a seperate person from Smeagol? I believe you are wrong the ring split him into two entirely different people. If you read LOTR there are many instances in which these two alternate personalities, if you will, converse.


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## DGoeij (Jun 3, 2002)

I was joking. If it wasn't obvious, I'm explaining now. I w a s j o k i n g.
And Gollum is another name for Smeagol, who made sounds like 'gollum' after he found the Ring. Smeagol wasn't nice either, he killed Deagol, his cousin, to get the Ring.


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## Elu Thingol (Jun 3, 2002)

In my opinion when the ring took over Smeagol it transfered all the evil that was in him to Gollum and left only the good in Smeagol. Soooo... Gollum=bad Smeagol=good


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## YayGollum (Jun 3, 2002)

Ummm...yeah. Nice to have a place to just talk about Gollum. Like we ever do that at the Gollum Fan Club.


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## Wonko The Sane (Jun 3, 2002)

ACK!
*in the middle of depressing IM convo with ex bf* Why do I let this boy break my heart over and over again?!?


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## ReadWryt (Jun 3, 2002)

I thought that Smeagol was described as being pretty petty and bad in the first place and that the Ring only amplified the contemptable aspects of his reprobate nature...


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## DGoeij (Jun 4, 2002)

Yeap. A nassty sneak in the first place, the Ring only made it worse. That's why Bilbo din't turn into an evil being.


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## Elu Thingol (Jun 4, 2002)

Well Bilbo was well on his way to turning into an evil being, and where does it say that Smeagol was already evil?


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## Gamil Zirak (Jun 4, 2002)

It says Smeagol was evil when he killed his cousin Deagol to get the shiny ring.


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## YayGollum (Jun 4, 2002)

Okay, give me a quote. Argh!


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## Wonko The Sane (Jun 7, 2002)

I don't know if that shows Smeagol was evil, or just highly susceptible to the power of the ring.
It could be that even then he was overcome with the RingLust as Isildur was and that he knew he had to have it.
Or perhaps prophecy pushed him to it.

But I think that some people are more susceptible to RingLust than others.


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## YayGollum (Jun 7, 2002)

All you people need to check out my new Gollum theory in the Hall of Fire. I think it's called Guess what I got for my birthday or something like that. I don't know. Happened too long ago.


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## Wonko The Sane (Jun 7, 2002)

On my way.


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## YayGollum (Jun 8, 2002)

Yay for one person!


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## Bilbo Baggins57 (Jun 9, 2002)

Sure WTS, but Isildor didn't kill anyone 2 get the ring. And Bilbo wasn't on his way 2 becoming evil! He never hurt anyone. He was just overcome by the power of the ring. The only things he ever used it for was 2 get through his journey in The Hobbit & 2 avoid annoying relatives in Bag-End.


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## YayGollum (Jun 10, 2002)

Ack! No! My thread says it all! The evil BB27000 is wrong! oh well.


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## Wonko The Sane (Jun 10, 2002)

Did I not say that some are more susceptible to RingLust than others?
They described Bilbo's strain of Hobbitssssesss as the heartiest, and also mentioned that they seemed stronger than men when it came to the ring thing.
Maybe Stoors were weaker in that area or something...

I don't believe that people (or hobbits) are inherently evil...


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## YayGollum (Jun 10, 2002)

Hey, cool avatar. I mean, I guess I can agree with that (even though Gollum is still the greatest).


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## Wonko The Sane (Jun 10, 2002)

Well of course he is.

(eep. exbf iming me...breaking out in cold sweat...panic attack...must resist urge to confess my undying love...)


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## YayGollum (Jun 10, 2002)

*runs away*


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## Bilbo Baggins57 (Jun 10, 2002)

Hey YG, it's just a theory not a fact. And no, I haven't looked at it yet. And where does it say in any of the books that Bilbo or Isildor ever hurt or killed anyone while they posessed the ring? Oh, wait, that's because they *never* killed/hurt anyone. Gollum was clearly evil before he found the ring.


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## Gamil Zirak (Jun 11, 2002)

Bilbo killed several spiders in Mirkwood while the ring was in his possession.


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## YayGollum (Jun 11, 2002)

Aha! Yay Gamil Zirak for defending Gollum!


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## Gamil Zirak (Jun 11, 2002)

Now, now. No need to accuse me of defending Gollum. You know I don't care much for the little guy, but if someone states something inacurate, I'm going to point it out and correct it.


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## YayGollum (Jun 12, 2002)

oh well, but bringing you over to the light side of the Force is definitely towards the top of my to do list.


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## tylerkelly246 (Jun 13, 2002)

I don't know. I think that he is a little thief with a semi-good heart. I mean how do we know how he was before he got a hold of the ring? We don't know. He could have been like any other creature of middle-earth. After he got ahold of the ring, he started turning bad due to the rings power, but deep down he is a sad individual.


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## Gamil Zirak (Jun 13, 2002)

That guy robbed me blind, but he sure was nice about it. I think I'll just forget it happened.

I don't think so.


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## tylerkelly246 (Jun 13, 2002)

*here*

I don't think that he robbed you blind. I think that you set a trap for him, and when he came toward you and the trap, you lunged at him. But much to your suprise, he got away with your valuables. So then you descided to say that he was a thief when in all auctually you are a poacher of all gollums.TSK TSK!!


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## YayGollum (Jun 13, 2002)

What are you people talking about?


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## Gamil Zirak (Jun 13, 2002)

Now, now. I was just making a point (or trying to anyway). You can't say someone is a criminal and then follow it up with he has a good heart. That just doesn't make sence. That's like saying someone is not responible for a crime they commit because they have a good heart. Well, if they had a good heart they would at least be remorseful about what they did.


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## YayGollum (Jun 13, 2002)

Got it, but I dissagree. Was not Han Solo a good-hearted smuggler? Yay for making SW/LOTR comparisons! (even though Gollum is nothing like Han)  oh well. How do you know Gollum never felt bad about what he did? How many times did Tolkien say what Gollum was thinking?


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## Bilbo Baggins57 (Jun 13, 2002)

Well, he did seem 2 have some second thoughts while Frodo was sleeping before Cirith Ungol but he led them into Shelob's lair anyway.


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## YayGollum (Jun 13, 2002)

Only because of the evil Sam.


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## Bilbo Baggins57 (Jun 13, 2002)

If it was because of Sam why did he take Frodo there too? Especially after Frodo gave Gollum a chance despite both Sam & Faramir's suspicion.


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## YayGollum (Jun 14, 2002)

Ack! I explain all of this in my thread in HOF! oh well. He took both of them to Shelob so she would just put them to sleep and he could get his security blanket back.


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## tylerkelly246 (Jun 14, 2002)

now now my friends let us not argue over whether or not he has a good heart, which he does, but rather we should be mad at the ring. This ring is really mean. Come on, you don't see me going down to Kay-Jewelers and getting mad at all of the rings, do you? No, we should all be mad at the " _the one ring_ ". Come on my brothers, let us ban together and make mad protest in front of target and Wal-mart telling about the badness of the ring. Let us march into victory. We will win. You know why. I have a secret weapon. I have in my hand a well oiled trout with which to kill the ring. And if not, we can send the ring on a all expense paid trip, while riding a grey hound bus, to mount doom. There it can be destroyed in the fire from which it came. Now, let us go!!!


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## Gamil Zirak (Jun 14, 2002)

The ring has no real powers over anyone who doesn't wear it. It can influence people, but it is for other reasons. It's comparable to Thorin and the Arkenstone. It had not magical powers yet he was willing to give up part of his hoard to get it back. It's also comparable to money. Money has no actual power or control over any of us, yet we still desire to have it and a lot of it. There is no proof that the ring made Smeagol kill Deagol for it except that he thought it was pretty and shiny. That's it, end of story.


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## tylerkelly246 (Jun 14, 2002)

Good point. I think that money has a different effect though. The ring can influence one to do certain things, because of the power of the Dark lord, but money is just fueled on by humans tendency for greediness. It can make us do things bad. But it does'nt have the power that the ring does. Good point, bad comparison.


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## Gamil Zirak (Jun 14, 2002)

No, no, no. It's a good point and comparison. The ring does affect you once you have it in your posession in a different way than money does. I was just getting at the fact that the ring has to be in your posession for it to have real affects on you.


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## YayGollum (Jun 14, 2002)

Wrong. Just seeing Smeagol's story tells us that the Ring can influence you without you having to even touch it. Do you really think that some crazy hobbit who was already rich would just kill his cousin to get something he found at the bottom of a river?


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## Wonko The Sane (Jun 14, 2002)

I certainly don't...I am convinced that seeing the ring prompted Smeagol to kill Deagol.
Hobbits don't kill eachother, remember?
There hadn't been a murder in the Shire...in...I think forever, right?


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## LadyGaladriel (Jun 14, 2002)

Boromir was influenced by the ring and he never touched it . 


I love Gollum. I pity him and I enjoyed his convosations. He was the hero!Keep Gollum going 4 eva Yay Smeagol!


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## Gamil Zirak (Jun 14, 2002)

Boromir was only influinced in the same way Pippin was with the Palintir. I believe that had Boromir not known that it was the one ring, he would have never lusted for it. The ring did play to his desires, but it wasn't actual powers of the ring. It was Boromir's will to possess it and wield it as a weapon against Sauron. It's the same with Smeagol. He only wanted it because it was shiny. The ring didn't make him kill Deagol. He did it under his own free will. Besides, why would the ring want Boromir to possess it? If the ring's powers were influincing him, it would have fallen off of Frodo's finger when he put it on after Boromir tried to take it. Then Boromir could have it for his own.


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## tylerkelly246 (Jun 14, 2002)

i love gollum too, but not in a sexy way.bye

-tyler the great


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## YayGollum (Jun 14, 2002)

Why do you think Pippin was influenced by the palantir? He didn't know what it was. Yes, I agree that Boromir wouldn't have been so easily influenced if he didn't know what it was, but I still think that it had some power over him. Sauron wasn't exerting his will through the Ring just then. It was only the power of the Ring by itself. I do believe that it can make people want to have it without any help from Sauron. oh well. Ack! The Ring made Smeagol kill Deagol! He would not have killed his cousin just to get it because it was shiny! That's crazy! oh well. Oh yeah, Yay Gollum Fans! Thanks, dudes!


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## Wonko The Sane (Jun 14, 2002)

Boromir, like his father, had that vein in him that made him susceptible to the yearning for power.
I believe that Smeagol had that same vein.
Even though Smeagol didn't recognize The One Ring for what it was I believe that he recognized it's inherent power and was tempted by it.
Denethor used the Palantir because of the power it gave him, and the edge he gained from it.
Boromir lusted after the ring because he knew of its power and how great and terrible he could be with it.
Smeagol knew nothing of the ring's nature, but the power was still in the ring, and he saw that right away.
And he gave into that...


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## Bilbo Baggins57 (Jun 14, 2002)

Yes, but people are still responsible for their actions. The ring can't make anyone do anything that they wouldn't do in their own free will. It might tempt them, but it doesn't mean they give in to it. Sam had the chance to put it on & use it for his own good but he didn't.


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## YayGollum (Jun 15, 2002)

I think the Ring's power is a little powerful than that. sorry.


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## Lantarion (Jun 15, 2002)

Hmm, I'm not sure about that Bilbo. For example when Frodo et al. were fleeing the Shire in the beginning of the book, and the Blak Rider came within a few feet of where they were hiding, Frodo was just about to put the Ring on and alert the rest of the Nazgûl. 
And if the Ring doesn't make people corrupt and insane, how do you explain Frodo's actions at the Sammath Naur? 
Certailny the characters under the influence of the Ring have their own will, and can fight the power of the Ring (like Frodo did), but it's a bit too harsh to say that they are responsible for their own actions. They might know what they're doing, they just no longer know why they shouldn't do it. That's what the Ring does to their will.


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## Bilbo Baggins57 (Jun 15, 2002)

True, but the ring just magnifies what ever greed or lust for power they might have already had to start out with. Such as the case with gollum.


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## YayGollum (Jun 16, 2002)

Such as the case with everybody! Everybody in LOTR had greed or lust for power! Don't just bash Gollum! Argh! oh well.


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## Bilbo Baggins57 (Jun 16, 2002)

I wasn't bashing gollum; I was just using an example to get my point across. I was just saying the ring seemed to bring it out of him more so than w/ other people, that's all. He did kill his friend to get it. Like someone else said, most of the other people started to be really affected by it only after they'd been in possession of it &/or been around it 4 a while.


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## YayGollum (Jun 16, 2002)

oh well. I still think that Sauron just used Gollum real quick, then tried to build up his army so he wouldn't lose like the last time and go get the Ring when he was good and ready. The evil thief Bilbo Baggins just messed up his whole plan when he got the Ring out.


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## Bilbo Baggins57 (Jun 16, 2002)

Bilbo's not a thief; he didn't even know what the ring was at first. He only found out what it did after it slipped on to his finger while he was running away from gollum. It's not like Bilbo directly tried 2 take it from him or anything. I don't think Sauron's plan was 4 gollum 2 have it. If it was, it would have still been in gollum's possession, not just laying there waiting 4 Bilbo 2 find it.


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## YayGollum (Jun 17, 2002)

Okay, I just call Bilbo a thief because Gollum does. And according to my theory, the only reason Bilbo ever got the Ring was because maybe it has a little sentience of it's own and it got bored with Gollum. I don't know. Sauron had nothing to do with it.


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## Wonko The Sane (Jun 25, 2002)

I agree...the ring had to be at least partly sentient to abandon Gollum and betray Isildur.


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## Bilbo Baggins57 (Jun 28, 2002)

Yay, u were the one who was saying it was Sauron's plan 4 gollum 2 have it & that Bilbo "messed up" this plan when he found the ring. Now you're saying that Sauron had nothing 2 do with it. Make up your mind.


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## cavilleri (Jun 28, 2002)

I am going to base my answer on this simple fact. Since I was little I would impersonate Gollum when I wanted something or would want to reference LOTR or The Hobbit. Why? Because he had the most personality and was the easiest person to make an immediate reference to. A simple "my precious" let people know you were a fan. Its like a secret knock for a club. Gollum is definately top notch in my book. 

And *Yay_Gollum * if you want to make analogies to Star Wars I would say Gollum is most definately most like Darth Vadar. He starts off as an ordinary person that had to face the decision between great power and doing the right thing. Both made the same decision, both ended up letting the evil eat away at them, and they both were brought to their fate by people that they were once like. And as with Gollum and LOTR, what would Star Wars be without Vadar?


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## YayGollum (Jun 28, 2002)

Ack! BB27,000! I was saying that Sauron had nothing to do with the Ring leaving Gollum! Yay cavilleri! Yay for mimicking Gollum! The greatest of all of Tolkien's creations! Yay Vader and Gollum! Yay Star Wars and LOTR! Yay Lucas and Tolkien!


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