# Goblins.....were they once Elves?



## greypilgrim

Were the goblins and orcs in Middle Earth the same race? Were they fashioned after elves and men, created by some magic? Were they bred together, mixed with evil creatures? Where O where did the goblinses come from? Their DNA might be some help, know where I can find some?  
IN seriousness, in anybody can answer this question I'd be thankful.


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## Nocturno

*Frome elves*

Hi there.
I think there might be a lot of help in another thread that discusses if there is actually a difference between goblins and orcs. It's long, although the general consensus is that orc is the real name and they are the same. Look around.
It is said in the Silmarillion that orcs were created by Morgoth "in mockery of elves", because he was unable to create a speaking race by his own.
Morgoth would have captured elves since their early days and "corrupted" them by torment and magic to breed orcs.
The same as trolls being mentioned as a counterpart of Ents, although no details given.
It appears any mix with men would have come much later, maybe by Saruman or Sauron or both. But that is not clear.
They must hold the most twisted DNA, by the way.


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## Nimawae's hope

I understood that Orcs are Dark Elves that listened to Morgoth's lies and came under his power. Because of this their hearts were corrupted and they hated the Light Elves more than anything else. As for the strange breed of orcs from Isengard, I believe that they are the result of interbreeding men and orcs. Having said that I think I need to go HURL now!! Thank you.


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## Beleg Strongbow

> _Originally posted by Nimawae's hope _
> *I understood that Orcs are Dark Elves that listened to Morgoth's lies and came under his power. Because of this their hearts were corrupted and they hated the Light Elves more than anything else. As for the strange breed of orcs from Isengard, I believe that they are the result of interbreeding men and orcs. Having said that I think I need to go HURL now!! Thank you. *




hay yáll i think that goblins are just another name for the orcs that are small in stature and like to live in deep, dark places.


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## Lantarion

OK, Beleg, but let's not get carried away here. The question was concerning orcs and elves, not whether orcs are the same as goblins.
And Nimawae, I know you understand the difference between Tolkien's Dark Elves and the Dark ELves of today's fantasy rpgs and such, but the way you wrote that message put me off a bit. Sorry.


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## Nocturno

I can remember the idea of "Dark Elves" as evil beings only since D&D.
There's not such a thing as evil elves in Tolkien's world... although Fëanor could say a thing or two about it.


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## Anarchist

Pontifex the reason they are carried trying to prove that goblins are orcs is that because it is stated clearly that Orcs are elves taken by Morgoth and corrupted. Now in what ways exept character tey were corrupted and how they came to look so ugly I don't know.


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## Nimawae's hope

Evil can corrupt even the most beautiful things, making them ugly to look at. The Elves had been so long under the spell of Morgoth that even their appearances began to reflect his evil heart and will. Once, Morgoth was beautiful, but has now become evil even to look upon.

What exactly did I say that put you off, Pontifex? Tell me so I don't get confused or confuse someone else!!

And I always thought orcs and goblins were the same thing-just different names! Is there somewhere that it says otherwise!?!


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## Grond

> _Originally posted by Pontifex _
> *OK, Beleg, but let's not get carried away here. The question was concerning orcs and elves, not whether orcs are the same as goblins.
> And Nimawae, I know you understand the difference between Tolkien's Dark Elves and the Dark ELves of today's fantasy rpgs and such, but the way you wrote that message put me off a bit. Sorry.  *


I'll have to look up the reference Pont, but I clearly remember a reference to the Moriquendi being afraid of Orome and hiding from him. Then being wooed by Melkor and he corrupting them. It somewhere very early in the Sil. I think the first chapter of the Silmarillion Proper. I'll look when I get home.

As for an Evil elf, how about Eol, father of Maeglin (betrayer of Gondolin) and husband of Eredhel (sister of King Turgon.) I always thought he had an evil streak in him.


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## Turambar

Orcs, if I remember rightly, were Elves captured by Melkor not long after they awoke and he corrupted them in his dungeons and they transformed through torture and magic, to Orcs.

Now, Goblins, I believe it says at in a note at the start of The Hobbit, are the same as Orcs. Goblin was the name given to them by the Hobbits and because the story revolves round a Hobbit, that is the term used. Orcs and Goblins are exactly the same.


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## Nimawae's hope

Oh, goody! Does that mean that I was right!!!


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## Turambar

Yes, I think so, unless I'm wrong... Which hardly ever happens


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## Nocturno

Absolutely right!
The only thing to add is that beign Moriquendi or elf of the dark is not related to being evil on itself.
The Mirkwood elves, including Legolas, are all Moriquendi (am I right?), it is supposed that Melkor corrupted those he captured via very cruel ways, I mean, by force.
But the mentioned exceptions really qualify on evil, also the remaining sons of Fëanor that slaughtered Cirdan's people and kidnapped Elros and Elrond at the end of the first age (and their soldiers I might add) are good candidates too.
But then again, they were under the doom of Mandos and the curse of the Silmarils.


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## Grond

> _Originally posted by Turambar _
> *Yes, I think so, unless I'm wrong... Which hardly ever happens *


The following summary of dialogue should clear up much concerning the Orc question. First off, this (according to Christopher Tolkien) is his best guess as to his father's final words on the origins of the orcs. From Morgoth's Ring, Chapter Myth's Transformed, 

*"...They bred and mutiplied rapidly whenever left undisturbed. So far as can be gleaned from the legends that have come down to us from our earliest days, it would seem that the Quendi had never yet encountered any Orcs of this kind before the coming of Orome to Cuivienen. " 

and 

"...the theory (that orcs originate from Man) remains nonetheless the most probable. It accords all that is known of Melkor, and of the nature and behaviour of Orcs - and of Men. Melkor was impotent to produce any living thing, but skilled in the corruption of things that did not proceed from himself, if he could dominate them. But if he had indeed attempted to make creatures of his own...he would, like Aule, only have succeeded in producing puppets...They hated one another and often fought...they had languages of their own, and spoke among themselves in various tongues...They could be slain, and they were subject to disease; but apart from these ills they died and were not immortal, even according to the manner of the Quendi; indeed they appear to have been by nature short-lived compared with the span of Men of higher race, such as the Edain." 

and 

"...was my father's final view of the question: Orcs were bred from Men, and if 'the conception in mind of the Orcs may go far back into the night of Melkor's thought' it was Sauron who, during the ages of Melkor's captivity in Aman, brought into being the black armies that were available to his Master whe he returned."* 

This is much debate and contradiction by the author with himself in this ten page summation by Christopher. But they are all based on passages written by JRRT's own hand. It appears that his final word was that _*Orcs reproduced like man and were of man stock and were not of Elvish origins.*_


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## Nocturno

*There we go, men are always the bad seed.*

Whaaaat! Another thing blamed on men?  
Now I might not know my Silmarillio by heart, but wasn't it a fact that orcs begun assailing the Sindar in Beleriand before the coming of the Noldor, and that the sun appeared on the sky just then, and that in that time men woke up to the world?
I mean, I thought orcs were preexistent to men!
Now of course men behave like orcs some times (or most in these years), but I thought orc mortality was in part a result of the corruption of elves.


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## Tharkun

Orks and Goblins were once elves, if you want to learn more read the Silmarillion.


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## Grond

> _Originally posted by Tharkun _
> *Orks and Goblins were once elves, if you want to learn more read the Silmarillion. *


Orcs and Goblins were once men, if you want ot learn more read Morgoth's Ring by J. R. R. Tolkien, Edited by Christopher Tolkien. If you'll look at the Silmarillion, it too was by J. R. R. Tolkien and edited by Christopher Tolkien. The only difference is that Morgoth's Ring is a more recent publication. 

The quote I made is not made up. It is from the book and represents J. R. R. Tolkien's final word on of what race the Orcs of the Third Age were made from and he states very clearly that it's man. You got a problem with that, take it up with Christopher Tolkien.


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## Nimawae's hope

Hooray, for Grond!! Gee, you sure seem to know a lot for a big hammer! Maybe big hammers are the ones with BRAINS!!! Maybe I should become a big hammer! Will that make me smarter!?! Oh, yeah thanks for looking up all that stuff! It clears up a lot!


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## Nazgul_Lord

*Uhhh Grond*

In this sort of case wouldn't you rely on the older publication, cause I'm pretty sure that the older one would express Tolkien's earlier fealings, and as such would be more correct since it was written closer in time to when he wrote the Lord of the Rings, and I'm going to go with; Orcs were once elves that were captured by Melkor, and mutilated, and then bred into what they are, goblins are the hobbit name so that has no real consequence here. I don't know what went through Tolkien's mind but I'm going with the one that was stated several times throughout several books and is widely known.


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## Lantarion

*Woah*

My whole world was just shaken. Orcs weren't Elves?! Then why the hell does it say so in the Sil? Yes yes, it is an earlier publication; but Christopher should have sent out flyers or bulletins or something explaining this 'error' in the Silmarillion, *JRR Tolkien's main work of literature.*  
Well, it does make sense though. When I heard for the first time that Orcs were once Elves, it seemed a bit odd to me. Men are more easily corrupted to wickedness, and therefore Men should also be the ancestors of verminous Orcs. But it really does shake the entire plot of the Sil a bit, Orcs not having anything to do with Elves. Why would Orcs hate Elves so much? Because Morgoth hated them too? Yeah, that's it.


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## greypilgrim

thank you grond and others, i see now how orcs got their beginnings. i can believe that ages before the rise of sauron as the dark lord, his master or his master's master imprisoned elves that were then tortured and altered and bred with....something, then used as slaves. but here is another question for all (i am still looking for the sil, then i will be as enlightened as you all):
how did the race of orc survive throughout the ages? reproduction? cloning? magic? i am perplexed by this question of orcs, and am looking for the sil. i feel better knowing how they were brought into existence. and the question of their downline is not that important. i know azog in moria had a son- bolg was his name. did tolkien ever explain this. they must reproduce somehow, though if i were an orc, i wouldn't be too excited about gettin' with a stinking foul she-goblin.
their master must have some power over their hearts and minds still. right?


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## Grond

I'll get out Morgoth's Ring one more time and look at it in detail. I think JRRT was dissatisfied with the thought thattt Elves could actually be distorted and turned to evil. Man more easily fits that role since Man is so easily corrupted. Plus, it was only through the massive capability for reproduction that Sauron was able to prepare the vast armies of Orcs that were awaiting Melkor when he returned from the Void. If you'll read the quote from the book again, you'll see where the author is coming from. 

Something else that everyone needs to realize is that J. R. R. Tolkien did not live to see the Silmarillion published. His son Chistopher had it published and did not feel it was his place to revise the works. He simply put out the additional writings as additional texts; hence, we end up with the Histories of Middle-earth. 

Nazgul_Lord, I found it interesting that you would place more value on an older opinion from the writer. Would that mean that you would dismiss the change in the Riddle Game that Tolkien made in 1937 so that the Hobbit text would fit in more properly with the LotRs? After all, it was written first.


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## Thorondor

I don't know if anyone has brought this up yet, but didn't orcs appear long before Men awoke? That has always been why I couldn't see orcs orginally coming from man, but I could be confused on the timeline of the first men waking. Hopefully someone out there will have a solid quote to answer this.


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## Glory

I am confused are goblins the creatures who fighted on the battle of the 5 armies and where do they live? (I wouldn't be so confused but i read the spanish version of the books so I have to translate everything here and i am gettin lost)


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## Nocturno

I brought the matter of timing up, yeah.
I haven't read Morgoth's ring, but before it came up I thought the Silmarillion was a pretty finished work in itself.
The whole time line is altered if orcs are not preexistent to men.
It becomes an issue on how can you hope to publish things by poking in someone else's annotations and pieces of paper.
Would it take to rewrite the Silmarillion?
Elves could be corrupted, that is a fact out of the "bad" actions we saw discribed by Fëanor and his sons. If they can be corrupted, why not twisted.
They have some innate good, but they are not angels!
Now duck! Here comes the mace!


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## Grond

Tolkien comes up with a logically way to weave it all into the story. The Silmarillion states that Orcs were made in mockery of Elves not from Elves although I will give it to you that the clear implication in the Sil is that Orcs were made of Elf stock. I was as surprised as you upon reading Morgoth's Ring. The entire passage is too long to post. I encourage you to read it. It explains that Orcs were not immortal (wouldn't they be if twisted elves) and didn't go to the Halls of Mandos (wouldn't they if they were twisted elves). They also bred in prodigious amounts and were so easily corrupted. He also explains that whole Man appeared when the Sun did thing too.

I want to assure you that these ideas are not Grond's. They are the authors. As I said before that Grond was as surprised as everyone with the change, but the change, as presented in Morgoth's Ring, is deemed (by the Author's own son Christopher) as being JRRT's final words on the matter. One must also remember that since the Silmarillion was published posthumously, JRRT didn't have a chance to revise it directly. The writings of Morgoth's Ring could be easily seen as mere corrections to the "finished text" of the Quenta Silmarillion Proper. At least that's the way I see it.......but I could be wrong.


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## Glory

> _Originally posted by Glory _
> *I am confused are goblins the creatures who fighted on the battle of the 5 armies and where do they live? (I wouldn't be so confused but i read the spanish version of the books so I have to translate everything here and i am gettin lost)  *


* nobody has replied my question *


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## Grond

Yes Glory, goblins and orcs are the same thing and they did indeed fight in the Battle of the Five Armies in the Hobbit.


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## Nocturno

OK,it does change everything.
Maybe it is a sort of feeling about men being always the black sheep.


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## Gothmog

There is nothing in the Silmarillion to say that Orcs Were made from Elves.



> ? Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes.



This says what is Believed by the the Elves. What the Valar think is not said, nor is it said that this is what truly happened. The Elves knew of only themselves and Dwarves who could talk. So how else could they explain the Orcs.



> And ere long the evil creatures came even to Beleriand, over passes in the mountains, or up from the south through the dark forests. Wolves there were, or creatures that walked in wolf-shapes, and other fell beings of shadow; and among them were the Orcs, who afterwards wrought ruin in Beleriand: but they were yet few and wary, and did but smell out the ways of the land, awaiting the return of their lord. Whence they came, or what they were, the Elves knew not then, thinking them perhaps to be Avari who had become evil and savage in the wild; in which they guessed all too near, it is said.



Again in this passage there is no proof from the author, the last words are "it is said." Therefore it is only what is believed by the Elves and could easily be wrong.

So it seems to me that the only thing that could cause a contridiction between the Sil and Morgoth's ring is the timing of the orcs apperance. For that I will have to wait until I have the other books to read my self.


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## greypilgrim

glory....
the goblins that fought in the battle of five armies in the hobbit, and gathered all their strength out of the mountains in the north (look at the map). azog, the great goblin that thorin and co. and gandalf killed in their great cave under the mountain, had a son, bolg, and he was there in the battle. hope that answers your question!


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## Isildur's Bane

so, could orcs not be the result of a breeding/corruption programme, involving elves and men. as the Uruk Hai are a human/orc hybrid breed, would this not explain the mortality of orcs. 

i would have though that humans being easily corruptable (the sourthrons being a bad bunch) would be capable of the evil orcs are. the elves if really uncoruptable, what about their offspring? the human element would allow an easier explanation of the shades of orcishness displayed by bill ferny's freinds.

comments? reaction?


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## Grond

IB, your argument could have validity. I don't read the words of the author in Morgoth's Ring and come to that conclusion. That doesn't mean my iterpretation of the author is correct. The easiest way to come to your own conclusion would be to read the section yourself. Morgoth's Ring is still available in many bookstores in paperback. I would like to hear your views after you read the texts.


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## greypilgrim

Orcs were "made" in "mockery" of elves.

Trolls were "made" in "mockery" of ents.

Uruk-Hai were "made" in "mockery" of men.

Alot of cross-breeding going on ......


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## Grond

> _Originally posted by greypilgrim _
> *Orcs were "made" in "mockery" of elves.
> 
> Trolls were "made" in "mockery" of ents.
> 
> Uruk-Hai were "made" in "mockery" of men.
> 
> Alot of cross-breeding going on ...... *


Actually neither Melkor nor Sauron "made" anything. They simply perverted that which already "was". The debate concerns the identity of that which was perverted.


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## Nocturno

What really concerns me about the debate is the considerations on Morgoth's Ring are annotations left behind by JRRT, either to change the whole Silmarillion or to discard them afterwards.
I am a newswriter, so only Ilúvatar knows how much I left out of my published work, in annotations, failed paragraphs, side thinking, especulation, etc.
I agree the comparison to men makes more sense in terms of inmortality to mortality and little to much fertility, still, the Silmarillion would need a rewriting out of that fact.
Who is entitled to do it?
That's the question.


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## Grond

> _Originally posted by Nocturno _
> *What really concerns me about the debate is the considerations on Morgoth's Ring are annotations left behind by JRRT, either to change the whole Silmarillion or to discard them afterwards.
> I am a newswriter, so only Ilúvatar knows how much I left out of my published work, in annotations, failed paragraphs, side thinking, especulation, etc.
> I agree the comparison to men makes more sense in terms of inmortality to mortality and little to much fertility, still, the Silmarillion would need a rewriting out of that fact.
> Who is entitled to do it?
> That's the question. *


Really there is only a single quote in the entirety of the Silmarillion that causes a problem in this matter and it is not insurmountable. The quote is from The Silmarillion, Chapter 3 - Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor, it reads in part,
_*"For who of the living has descended into the pits of Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor? Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes. For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar; and naught that had life of its own, not the semblance of life, could ever Melkor make after his rebellion in the Ainulindalë before the Beginning: so say the wise."*_
This appears to be an ambiguous statement that may be interpreted many different ways. On the one hand JRRT speaks of the Quendi that were captured, corrupted and enslaved and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves... That does not say that the Elves are the only stock from which Orcs were made. I have completely scanned the entirety of the Sil and there is no other place that speaks of these origins. It seems to me that since the Silmarillion is itself, a posthumous published work, that it should have no more weight in this argument than the absolute clarification made by JRRT and CT in Morgoth's Ring. But that's just my opinion.


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## Nocturno

I'm afraid there is another couple of paragraphs as the following:
"Now the Orcs that multiplied in the darkness of the earth grew strong an fell... Thence on a sudden a great army came into Beleriand and assailed King Thingol... Therefore he called upon Denethor... and fought the first battle in the wars of Beleriand...

This is before the rise of the sun. Then arrives Fëanor:
"and there on the grey fields of Mithrim was fought the second battle in the lands of Beleriand, Dagor-Nuin-Giliath, it is named, the Battle under the Stars, for the Moon had not yet risen... The Orcs fled before them, and they were driven forth from Mithrim...

Then the host of Fingolfin finally gets to ME:
"But as the host of Fingolfin marched into Mithrim the Sun rose flaming in the West..."

Now we go back some pages to the chapter On Men:
"At the first rising of the Sun the Younger Children of Ilúvatar awoke in the land of Hildórien... but the Sun arose in the West, and the opening eyes of Men were turned towards it..."

Phew! That was a lot of digging  

Any other Orc origin might be acceptable, but up to now, in the first JRRT posthomous work and one of the most divulged (and very important in its content), there is at least a type or Orc preexistent to Men. And they appeared to multiply very well too!
A revision of the Silmarillion is in order! It could be done, in order to make it consistent with further considerations.


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## Grond

> _Originally posted by Nocturno _
> *I'm afraid there is another couple of paragraphs as the following:
> "Now the Orcs that multiplied in the darkness of the earth grew strong an fell... Thence on a sudden a great army came into Beleriand and assailed King Thingol... Therefore he called upon Denethor... and fought the first battle in the wars of Beleriand...
> 
> This is before the rise of the sun. Then arrives Fëanor:
> "and there on the grey fields of Mithrim was fought the second battle in the lands of Beleriand, Dagor-Nuin-Giliath, it is named, the Battle under the Stars, for the Moon had not yet risen... The Orcs fled before them, and they were driven forth from Mithrim...
> 
> Then the host of Fingolfin finally gets to ME:
> "But as the host of Fingolfin marched into Mithrim the Sun rose flaming in the West..."
> 
> Now we go back some pages to the chapter On Men:
> "At the first rising of the Sun the Younger Children of Ilúvatar awoke in the land of Hildórien... but the Sun arose in the West, and the opening eyes of Men were turned towards it..."
> 
> Phew! That was a lot of digging
> 
> Any other Orc origin might be acceptable, but up to now, in the first JRRT posthomous work and one of the most divulged (and very important in its content), there is at least a type or Orc preexistent to Men. And they appeared to multiply very well too!
> A revision of the Silmarillion is in order! It could be done, in order to make it consistent with further considerations. *


I am in absolute agreement. Our discussion led me to reread the First 10 Chapters of the Silmarillion this weekend (hence my absence from posting) and I noticed the additional quotes you cited here. I will search again in Morgoth's Ring to see if an explanation of this descrepancy is offerred. If not, then there is a significant conflict as to how Orcs can be of man stock since they appeared before he was awakened. As Arnold said in the Terminator flick, "I'll be back!"


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## Lantarion

I find that hard to believe, because it was the grand scheme of Ilúvatar that Elves would be the first beings to awake in Arda (after the birds and beasts?). But it might be possible in theory, because Melkor was one of the first Ainur who shaped the Music and Eä; and perhaps he had the power to make a race, like Aulë made the Dwarves.


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## Cian

JRRT was considering pushing the awakening of Men back in time. See note three to the Orc essay in which: _"It is thus probably to Sauron that we may look for a solution of the problem of chronology."_ 

_Myths Transformed_ Morgoths Ring ~ where Grond goeth


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## Nocturno

> _Originally posted by Pontifex _
> *I find that hard to believe, because it was the grand scheme of Ilúvatar that Elves would be the first beings to awake in Arda (after the birds and beasts?). But it might be possible in theory, because Melkor was one of the first Ainur who shaped the Music and Eä; and perhaps he had the power to make a race, like Aulë made the Dwarves. *



Oh, elves can keep their title!  
It's men who would have to awake before, in order to be the "raw material" for the first Orcs. (right Cian?)
Personally, though, I find it more beautiful that men awake with the Sun and that the only children of twilight are the elves. That's the poetry behind it, which also should be considered and is no less important than historic consistency.


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## Cian

In _Myths Transformed_, Tolkien wrote of the awakening of Men:_ "Therefore in some period during the Great March."_ And in the Orc essay referred to: 



> "For though the time of the awakening of Men is not known, even the calculations of the loremasters that place it earliest do not assign it a date long before the Great March began, certainly not long enough before it to allow for the corruption of Men into Orcs. On the other hand, it is plain that soon after his return Morgoth had at his command a great number of these creatures, with whom he ere long began to attack the Elves.
> 
> (my edit) ... This view of the origin of the orcs thus meets with difficulties of chronology. But though Men may take comfort in this, the theory remains nonetheless most probable. It accords with all that is known of Melkor, and of the nature and behaviour of Orcs -- and of Men."



Of course, that's just from one of the essays note


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## greypilgrim

I haven't read the Sil, but I read somewhere that Morgoth bred Dragons, too. At first they didn't have wings, then he geve them wings? Can anyone confirm this?


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## Glory

> _Originally posted by greypilgrim _
> *glory....
> the goblins that fought in the battle of five armies in the hobbit, and gathered all their strength out of the mountains in the north (look at the map). azog, the great goblin that thorin and co. and gandalf killed in their great cave under the mountain, had a son, bolg, and he was there in the battle. hope that answers your question! *



ok thanks I would fight about what were exacly orcs but I don't know much about the subject....


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## Grond

> _Originally posted by Nocturno _
> *
> 
> Oh, elves can keep their title!
> It's men who would have to awake before, in order to be the "raw material" for the first Orcs. (right Cian?)
> Personally, though, I find it more beautiful that men awake with the Sun and that the only children of twilight are the elves. That's the poetry behind it, which also should be considered and is no less important than historic consistency. *


Glaurung the father of Dragons was a great Wurm and was wingless. His greatest offspring was Ancalagon the Black who was greater in size that Glaurung and could fly. Glaurung was killed by Turin Turambar and Ancalagon was killed by Earendil, father of Elros and Elrond. (From the Sil, ad libbed and not directly quoted.)

Oops.... of course I meant Ancalagon.


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## Nocturno

Uh, of course the one killed by Earendil was Ancalagon, right?  

More on dragons
The winged dragons only appeared at the last battle of the first age, or the War of Wrath.
Before, they did not have wings. By the way, I find a first referrence to Glaurung in the Dagor Bragollach, the Battle of Sudden Flame, when Morgoth broke the siege of the Noldor.
But I think there's an earlier one. Anybody?


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## greypilgrim

*bump*



greypilgrim said:


> how did the race of orc survive throughout the ages?
> 
> reproduction?
> 
> cloning?
> 
> magic?
> 
> i am perplexed by this question of orcs. i know azog in moria had a son- bolg was his name. did tolkien ever explain this? they must reproduce somehow.



My guess would be magic, though it was never explained in any of the LoTR books, in the appendices, or in the Silmarillion. Any ideas people?


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## Inderjit S

How _else_ do species reproduce?


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