# Issue of Magic/Wizards in LoTR



## Lord of Ry'leh (Aug 13, 2002)

It seems to me that wizards and magic users and very rare in Middle-Earth. The only people capable of using it are very important people (Galadriel, Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast...). So the question is, how common is magic and casting in ME. I'm guessing you wouldn't see thousands of mages walking around shooting off lighting bolts and fire balls from their hands. There magic would be more suddle. I was reading the RPG forum and there seemed to be hundreds of wizards and characters who could do such things.


----------



## hpfan55 (Aug 13, 2002)

Confusticated has a point. Im glad Middle Earth isn't full of wizards and mages, warlocks and all the other names there are for them. It makes Middle Earth more real without alot of them I mean think about it Harry Potters fantasy world is full of them doing spells with wands its unbelievable but to take 5 or 6 wizards in one world that can't just create fire out of thin air is more believable Im not sure where in the lord of the rings but Gandalf says somethign like I can't just make a fire appear i need wood while the company was in the misty moutians but don't quote me on this cuz im not to sure.


----------



## Ponte (Aug 13, 2002)

Gandalf says that on Caradhras when Legolas ask if Gandalf can walk before them with a flame and melt the snow.


----------



## LadyGaladriel (Aug 13, 2002)

LOL that bit made me laugh the Most. 



> Legolas " well if Gandalf went in front he could melt the snow for you . "
> Gandalf "And if Elves could fly . Legolas could fly off and get the Sun.






Much later on 





> Gandlaf " Get some faggots and I will make a Fire but anyone looking will see GANDALF IS HERE



a bit on . 



> Legolas " I will now find the sun"



Lol


----------



## Goro Shimura (Aug 13, 2002)

> _This is excerpted from a post in the Finding God thread._
> Q: In recent years, magic in diverse forms such as games, TV shows, etc., has been very popular among young people. Given the way magical powers are presented in the "Lord of the Rings," do you think that there could be any dangers for youngsters?
> 
> Pearce: There is very little of what could be termed magic in "The Lord of the Rings." There is much that is supernatural, but only in the sense that God is supernatural, or that Satan is supernatural, or that good and evil are supernatural.
> ...


 The primary difference between LotR and most other fantasy is that magic is not seperated from the spiritual world in LotR.

Most magic also tends to have consequences in Tolkien's world-- and even good magic tends to have tragic consequences. Examples: the fading of Lorien, the addictiveness of the Ring, the snare of the palantir, etc.


----------



## ReadWryt (Aug 13, 2002)

For starters, lets keep Gandalf out of the catagory of People. He's more closely an Angelic Being in the fleshly rainment of a Man. This would explain his ability to do the remarkable things he does though, and why Men don't practice Magic themselves.

Tolkien also mentions that for the most part the Elves' magic was not in some spell or act, but in their Craft. The same holds for the Dwarves...so in truth Magic permiates much of Middle-earth. The professor saw the casual use of Magic in Middle-earth as the domain of the Lazy, and mostly refered to it as being a "mechanical" answer to a natural problem...


----------



## aragil (Aug 13, 2002)

For anyone with access to letters, on p. 159 (I assume the pagination's the same on all editions- at any rate it's the oft-quoted letter to Milton Waldman) there is a bit where Tolkien explains that the term 'wizards' is used because of its derivation from 'wise man', and that this should be considered separate from other connotations (e.g. conjurer, magician). 
Sorry- should have quoted when I looked it up, but I was lazy.


----------



## Windfola (Aug 16, 2002)

Greetings, Fellow Tolkien Enthusiasts!

This is my first post at the LotR forum, and, as a lover of all things Tolkien (especially tLotR), I am looking forward to many more posts & replies--and getting to know all of you along the way!

As for wizards & magic in the LotR, let me add my two cents (with inflation, it may be up to a nickel by now  ):

Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast and the two unnamed "wizards" were not conjurors, in the sense of those who practice witchcraft. They were the "Istari"--perhaps Maiar, or lesser-Maiar, in the beginning, before they were chosen and sent to Middle Earth, "messengers to contest the power of Sauron, and to unite all those who had the will to resist him."

In a sense (as ReadWryt pointed out), Gandalf might be considered a type of angelic being--as one of Eru (Iluvatar's) faithful servants. It is known that the Istari were sworn to the service of "the Secret Fire" (the Flame of Arnor), which may have been symbolic of Eru, himself.

Gandalf and the other Istari were called "wizards" by the people of ME, because they did not know their true nature, nor did they (for the most part) understand the mission, which brought Gandalf and his order to ME. Their supernatural abilities would certainly seem "magical" to the simple folk of the land, such as the Hobbits and common man.

As far as "magic" goes, much of what appears "magical" can be interpreted in other ways:

The palantiri, for example: far from being "crystal balls" (in the sense of those used by psychics), these "seeing stones" were more like remote viewing devices, which allowed for two-way transmissions. They were used to survey the Kingdoms of ME. Of course, when Sauron got his nasty hands of one, he used it for his own evil purposes, to pervert the truth and spread fear and dread, as well as to ensnare those whom he could  . The palantiri were created by Feanor in the Elder Days and given by his house to the Lords of Andunie in Numenor (2nd Age), later to be brought to ME by Elendil.

The doors into Moria: some people have stated that Gandalf used a witchcraft-like "spell" to open the doors into this Dwarf Kingdom, but what was required was a simple word: "friend" ("mellon" in Eldarin). Seems like the doors were made to be voice-activated by a pre-set "password." How this was accomplished is not revealed, but the door-opening did not require anything particularly supernatural--just a voice and the correct word.

I'm not attempting to detract from tLotR, as it is full of wonder, and the fantasy elements are superbly interwoven into the tale. There is much left to the imagination, and plenty of room to speculate about people and places and events--which is part of what makes this story so endearing and so timeless in its appeal.

But remember--even Gandalf's fireworks seemed magical to the Hobbits! 



"Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!"


----------



## ReadWryt (Aug 22, 2002)

> But remember--even Gandalf's fireworks seemed magical to the Hobbits!



Of course, possessing the Elvish "Ring of Fire" didn't hurt the "magical" qualities of the Fireworks any either...hehehe


----------



## Ynhockey (Aug 22, 2002)

The Istari were maiar, so they had some supernatural powers, which could possibly be called magic by the Elves and Men (and Dwarves). However, the 'magic' that Galadriel and the other Elves/Dwarves did wasn't really magic, it was just skill. For example, for Dwarves it was supernatural to breed beasts, so they might've called the act of horse-breeding magic, while the Men called gates that opened with a voice magic, etc. etc. - true, Men seem to have the least supernatural abilities, but that's because we are all Men ourselves so we don't see some of the things they do unusual. So, except for the 'Holy Ones' and Iluvatar himself, no one can do magic.


----------



## Lantarion (Aug 23, 2002)

By 'Holy Ones' do you mean the Ainur in general?
And I wouldn't actually call the work of Ilúvatar 'magic'. Do we call the 'acts of God' magic? No. They are miracles, too high and incredible to be called something as 'low' as magic. 
But I totally agree, M-E has a real and true sense to it, mainly I think because of the lack of unexplainable things being common. 'Magic' is something truly amazing in M-E, even though things considered miraculous or wonderful or supernaural happen quite often.


----------



## Mithril (Aug 24, 2002)

here is a question ive been pondering, why didnt gandalf use magic when they were being attacked >??<(like in moria)


----------



## Gil-Galad (Aug 24, 2002)

Saruman,Gandalf,Radagast,Sauron are Maiar-kind of gods.
Elrond has one of the three rings given to elves.
Galadriel has another and at the same time she is the only High elf in ME.The only elf who have lived in Valinor from those who live in Me at that time.


----------



## Gil-Galad (Aug 24, 2002)

Saruman,Gandalf,Radagast,Sauron are Maiar-kind of gods.
Elrond has one of the three rings given to elves.
Galadriel has another and at the same time she is the only High elf in ME.The only elf who have lived in Valinor from those who live in Me at that time.


----------

