# Aragorn in movies vs fingolfin?



## Aragorn II Elessar (Jun 7, 2021)

as you all know, aragorn in lotr movies is much stronger than aragorn in the book. he defeats the witch king and 5 other nazgul. he kills tens of uruk-hai alone etc. etc. what if aragorn and fingolfin in the movie universe had a 1 to 1 sword duel under normal and equal conditions, which would win? I think Aragorn will win.


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## Ealdwyn (Jun 7, 2021)

I disagree that Movie Aragorn is stronger. Movie Aragorn is full of self-doubt. Book Aragorn knows _exactly_ what he is destined to do.


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## Aragorn II Elessar (Jun 7, 2021)

Ealdwyn said:


> I disagree that Movie Aragorn is stronger. Movie Aragorn is full of self-doubt. Book Aragorn knows _exactly_ what he is destined to do.


I said that Aragorn in the movie is stronger in terms of battle and fighting skills.


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## Ealdwyn (Jun 7, 2021)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> I said that Aragorn in the movie is stronger in terms of battle and fighting skills.


I'd need to see the evidence to support that


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## Aragorn II Elessar (Jun 7, 2021)

Ealdwyn said:


> I'd need to see the evidence to support that


Defeating the witch king and killing lurtz is the biggest proof of this, I think.😉


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## Ealdwyn (Jun 7, 2021)

And now you have to prove a negative. Good luck with that.


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## Olorgando (Jun 7, 2021)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> Defeating the witch king...


By that logic, Éowyn, *killing* the Witch-king (with the help of Merry) would place her above Aragorn.
On her fearlessness in confronting the WK, she certainly topped all Gondolin Gondor warriors except perhaps Boromir, *if* he was able to do so - I'm skeptical.
If you mean the attack on Weathertop in the first LoTR book and film, the Nazgûl did not necessarily need to press home their attack, as wounding Frodo with the Morgul Knife should have done the job. But Frodo was not just a "shrunken man", as is commonly misconstrued (especially after PJ's garbage), he was a Hobbit immensely tougher than any man (including Aragorn!) in resisting the One Ring.


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## Elthir (Jun 7, 2021)

I vote for Finagorn!

He has the famous fortitude and fine physique of Fingolfin . . .

. . . plus the chipped chin of *Egg*o Mortensen


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## 1stvermont (Jun 7, 2021)

I would say Aragorn of the books espically ROTK was one bad as# force. In fact I think he took over as the free people's most important figure over Gandalf the White after helms deep. I do not think the movies overpowered him. Of course, i might have to go rewatch movies and reread books which i just am not about to do anytime soon.


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## Aragorn II Elessar (Jun 10, 2021)

1stvermont said:


> I would say Aragorn of the books espically ROTK was one bad as# force. In fact I think he took over as the free people's most important figure over Gandalf the White after helms deep. I do not think the movies overpowered him. Of course, i might have to go rewatch movies and reread books which i just am not about to do anytime soon.


but in the movie, Aragorn is not defeated by anyone except olog-hai. He defeated the witch king and the king of the dead.


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## Olorgando (Jun 10, 2021)

Fingolfin went head-to head with Morgoth, and gave him seven wounds that never properly healed thereafter, and stabbed him in the foot so that Morgoth went lame ever after. Fingolfin would have shredded any foe Aragorn ever faced, including the Witch-king, in about two seconds - and Aragorn in about three.


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## Aragorn II Elessar (Jun 10, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> Fingolfin went head-to head with Morgoth, and gave him seven wounds that never properly healed thereafter, and stabbed him in the foot so that Morgoth went lame ever after. Fingolfin would have shredded any foe Aragorn ever faced, including the Witch-king, in about two seconds - and Aragorn in about three.


I don't think so. Aragorn's lineage goes back to Fingolfin. The most noble man in Middle-earth. When Fingolfin injured Morgoth, Morgoth's power level was very low. It was even as much as Sauron with the Ring. Because he had spent his strength before going into this fight.


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## Olorgando (Jun 10, 2021)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> Aragorn's lineage goes back to Fingolfin.


Um, yes, Approximately 68 human generations later. Even in our time, assuming 25 years per generation (of firstborns), that's 1,700 years.
Even assuming 20 years per generation (women were married off much younger than that for a huge amount of recorded history), it would be 1,360 years.
Actually, generations how much time separated him from Fingolfin are is irrelevant here. Dilution to two to the power of 68 lands us in totally idiotic homeopathic territory.


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## 1stvermont (Jun 10, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> Fingolfin went head-to head with Morgoth, and gave him seven wounds that never properly healed thereafter, and stabbed him in the foot so that Morgoth went lame ever after. Fingolfin would have shredded any foe Aragorn ever faced, including the Witch-king, in about two seconds - and Aragorn in about three.



Unless we are incorrect in the 1v1 military power of Morgoth. If he and the Valar's power in genera is exaggerated, then Fingolfins feat might not be so impressive.


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## Aragorn II Elessar (Jun 10, 2021)

1stvermont said:


> Unless we are incorrect in the 1v1 military power of Morgoth. If he and the Valar's power in genera is exaggerated, then Fingolfins feat might not be so impressive.


I totally agree. Morgoth's strength was almost as strong as Sauron with the Ring when he dueled Fingolfin. He wasn't the strongest being as he was when he was first created.


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## 1stvermont (Jun 10, 2021)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> I totally agree. Morgoth's strength was almost as strong as Sauron with the Ring when he dueled Fingolfin. He wasn't the strongest being as he was when he was first created.



Agreed. Tolkien says Sauron became more powerful with the ring than Morgoth was in the first age. I think people sometimes overlook the flexibility of created being over time in middle earth. They get stuck on the original classifications only. I think Sauron caused more opposition to free peoples over all ages than did Morgoth. He was the true enemy of ME while Melkor was more the enemy of the Valar and Noldor elves for the time he was around.


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## Aragorn II Elessar (Jun 10, 2021)

1stvermont said:


> Agreed. Tolkien says Sauron became more powerful with the ring than Morgoth was in the first age. I think people sometimes overlook the flexibility of created being over time in middle earth. They get stuck on the original classifications only. I think Sauron caused more opposition to free peoples over all ages than did Morgoth. He was the true enemy of ME while Melkor was more the enemy of the Valar and Noldor elves for the time he was around.


You are right, but Morgoth was the first to start evil in Middle-earth. If Morgoth had not been created, I have always wondered if Sauron could have created the Ring and ruled Middle-earth.


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## Olorgando (Jun 11, 2021)

1stvermont said:


> Tolkien says Sauron became more powerful with the ring than Morgoth was in the first age.


Disagree. You keep stating this as if Sauron had increased in power. What JRRT was stating here is that Morgoth had so hugely dissipated his native power ("All of Arda was Morgoth's Ring") that he had become weaker than Sauron, not Sauron stronger. And Sauron, by the time of the War of the Ring, had also lost native power. First by being nearly destroyed bodily by Huan when the latter and Lúthien defeated him at Tol-in-Gaurhoth, the First Age Minas Tirith. Second by the destruction of Númenor close to the end of the Second Age. And third by the loss of his One Ring (and the finger it was attached to) when Isildur took it from him at the end of the Second Age.

That talk of Sauron having become more powerful than ever by the end of the Third Age had nothing to do with his native power. Besides JRRT's well-known propensity for hyperbole (even Christopher admitted this), Sauron's power had increased as that of any doddering dictator's in the real world could increase: by amassing more forces, more allies, more resources than he had had earlier.


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## 1stvermont (Jun 11, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> Disagree. You keep stating this as if Sauron had increased in power. What JRRT was stating here is that Morgoth had so hugely dissipated his native power ("All of Arda was Morgoth's Ring") that he had become weaker than Sauron, not Sauron stronger. And Sauron, by the time of the War of the Ring, had also lost native power. First by being nearly destroyed bodily by Huan when the latter and Lúthien defeated him at Tol-in-Gaurhoth, the First Age Minas Tirith. Second by the destruction of Númenor close to the end of the Second Age. And third by the loss of his One Ring (and the finger it was attached to) when Isildur took it from him at the end of the Second Age.
> 
> That talk of Sauron having become more powerful than ever by the end of the Third Age had nothing to do with his native power. Besides JRRT's well-known propensity for hyperbole (even Christopher admitted this), Sauron's power had increased as that of any doddering dictator's in the real world could increase: by amassing more forces, more allies, more resources than he had had earlier.



Not much of a surprise but I disagree with you once more. At least in part. Yes Morgoth became weaker but also Sauron became stronger. I have posted on this before and dont feel the need to copy-paste it here. I agree with you that his becoming more powerful was in part due to his power as commander of a stronger force [also implying later age armies more powerful. But i noticed your willing to accept hyperbole with later third age writings but not first-age? how do you know the hyperbole was not used more with Morgoth valar etc in fact i think it is very clear and intended that Tolkien used hyperbole often in the legends of the first age espically.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Jun 11, 2021)

Maybe...we could discuss it through "implication". For instance, JRRT didn't mention that long period of peace would lead to military decline, yet the disparity between hobbits during 1974 and Saruman's occupation of Shire was a undeniable proof. Though finding proof via implication really...extenuates everyone. XD
Anyway, just consider my offer.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Jun 11, 2021)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> Aragorn is not defeated by anyone except olog-hai


Not only that troll, but also a Uruk in the skirmish at Amon-hen, choking his neck till Legolas gave a support shot to relieve him. Yet these 2 cases are all "kill steal", for both the Uruk and troll had superior personnel number and they're in a big smash.


Olorgando said:


> ...By that logic, Éowyn, *killing* the Witch-king (with the help of Merry) would place her above Aragorn.
> On her fearlessness in confronting the WK, she certainly topped all Gondolin Gondor warriors except perhaps Boromir, *if* he was able to do so - I'm skeptical....


Eowyn got gender bonus. In addition, Boromir I, also had the record f kicking the Witch King's ass in the battle of Osgilithas, implied by JRRT, though he's the DOW by the Witch King as well. But you're right, the Witch King in the film, truly had no reason to smash with Aragorn as Frodo was wounded, unless considering if Frodo could be cured just in time. Don't forget, it's not far from those Elvish Healing House that owned the resources to cure Morgul's wound.
Then here came to another point, these Nazguls should have known there must be some elvish medic resources enough for Frodo's treatment, after all, they're the finest military combat and intellectual personnel of almost the whole ME, unless they overestimated the Morgul's weapon's damage against personnel that could make his game over before he's transported to those elvish treatment, or the elvish medic resources to cure Morgul's weapons's wound were too classified so that they secured it's game over to Frodo for so sure that they even didn't need to double check.


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## Aragorn II Elessar (Jul 30, 2021)

Elthir said:


> I vote for Finagorn!
> 
> He has the famous fortitude and fine physique of Fingolfin . . .
> 
> . . . plus the chipped chin of *Egg*o Mortensen


but viggo more handsome than brad so akhilleus.


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## Elthir (Jul 30, 2021)

Well I think I'm more handsome than Brad!

Look to my avytar!


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## Aragorn II Elessar (Jul 30, 2021)

Elthir said:


> Well I think I'm more handsome than Brad!
> 
> Look to my avytar!


By the way, which country are you from? usa?


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## Elthir (Jul 30, 2021)




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## Aragorn II Elessar (Jul 30, 2021)

Elthir said:


>


Why doesn't a person know where he is?


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## Elthir (Jul 30, 2021)




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## Aragorn II Elessar (Jul 30, 2021)

Elthir said:


>


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## Elthir (Jul 30, 2021)




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## Aragorn II Elessar (Jul 30, 2021)

Elthir said:


>


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## Elthir (Jul 30, 2021)




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## Aragorn II Elessar (Jul 30, 2021)

Elthir said:


>


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## Elthir (Jul 30, 2021)

Okay this has got to end at some point  

Right Jen?


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## Oromedur (Aug 8, 2021)

1stvermont said:


> Not much of a surprise but I disagree with you once more. At least in part. Yes Morgoth became weaker but also Sauron became stronger. I have posted on this before and dont feel the need to copy-paste it here. I agree with you that his becoming more powerful was in part due to his power as commander of a stronger force [also implying later age armies more powerful. But i noticed your willing to accept hyperbole with later third age writings but not first-age? how do you know the hyperbole was not used more with Morgoth valar etc in fact i think it is very clear and intended that Tolkien used hyperbole often in the legends of the first age espically.


In terms of hyperbole, we are talking here about two different in-universe narrators. Lord of the rings is written by Bilbo and Frodo, whereas other writings, particularly of Morgoth, are translated elvish lore.
I WOULD think hobbits are more likely to exaggerate this elves.


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## Aragorn II Elessar (Aug 9, 2021)

I don't understand those who voted for fingolfin at all. Aragorn is perhaps the most charismatic character in middle earth. And I haven't witnessed his defeat, except for olog-hai. Actually, he wasn't defeated by olog-hai.he was defeated by sauron.in that scene they replaced sauron with cgi and put it olog-hai.


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## Goldilocks Gamgee (Aug 9, 2021)

1stvermont said:


> Sauron became more powerful with the ring than Morgoth was in the first age.


Did it take an army of the Valar storming Middle-Earth to defeat Sauron with the Ring? No. That was done by some Men and Elves.


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## Olorgando (Aug 9, 2021)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> I don't understand those who voted for fingolfin at all. Aragorn is perhaps the most charismatic character in middle earth. And I haven't witnessed his defeat, except for olog-hai. Actually, he wasn't defeated by olog-hai.he was defeated by sauron.in that scene they replaced sauron with cgi and put it olog-hai.


Ecthelion, the Aragorn you chose as a comparison is, of all things, that pathetic wimp that PJ had Viggo Mortensen totally falsify the book character (I have absolutely nothing against Viggo as an actor or even a person, but if you have garbage script-writing and directing, the best actor / actress in the world is helpless) in his films. Book Aragorn would have mopped the floor with film Aragorn in about three seconds without breaking a sweat. Book Aragorn would have lasted as long against his 68-generations-back ancestor Fingolfin, the mightiest warrior of the Noldor (had Fingolfin not been so reasonable when Fëanor challenged him in Aman, Fëanor would have been the most damaged Elf in Arda before his father was killed by Morgoth). The comparison is simply ridiculous.



Goldilocks Gamgee said:


> Did it take an army of the Valar storming Middle-Earth to defeat Sauron with the Ring? No. That was done by some Men and Elves.


Actually, Men and Elves were just supporting cast. Sauron's demise was effected by Hobbits.


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## Goldilocks Gamgee (Aug 9, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> Actually, Men and Elves were just supporting cast. Sauron's demise was effected by Hobbits.


Hobbits ruled the whole affair out _after _Men and Elves effectively took the Ring from Sauron. Hobbits were no match for Sauron, when he had the Ring. The two better known free folks of Middle-Earth went against the most powerful version of the fallen Maia, and won. Not wholly, as they lacked the strength of will, but they still did win.



Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> Aragorn is perhaps the most charismatic character in middle earth.


No offense, but is that why you vote for him? He looks good?


Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> he was defeated by sauron.


Book!Aragorn could not be defeated by Sauron, unlike Movie!Aragorn. Tolkien's Son of Arathorn was strong enough to win a contest of wills against this servant of Morgoth.


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## Olorgando (Aug 9, 2021)

Goldilocks Gamgee said:


> Hobbits ruled the whole affair out _after _Men and Elves effectively took the Ring from Sauron.


Forgive me if I seriously dispute the effectiveness of their taking the of One Ring. Isildur refuses to chuck it in the Cracks of Doom, and Elrond refrains from bonking Isildur on the head with a blunt object and chucking it in while Isildur is out cold.
Cut to year *two* of the Third Age: Isildur has his second DUH moment when he loses the One Ring at the Gladden Fields of the Anduin (and his life as well).
Cut to just under 2,500 years later (2463 TA): Déagol / Sméagol.
Just under 500 years later (2941 TA): Bilbo.
About 60 years later (3001 TA): Frodo.
19 years later (3019 TA): Sam => Frodo = Gollum => bye bye Sauron.
Not that the supporting functions by Men and Elves were not in some way decisive in *distracting* Sauron.
But at Mount Doom it's Gollum, Frodo and Sam.


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## Olorgando (Aug 9, 2021)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> Aragorn is perhaps the most charismatic character in middle earth.


Charismatic is an ambivalent term, many dictators were charismatic. I see Fëanor as being by far the most charismatic figure in Middle-earth, if almost entirely in the negative sense.


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## Goldilocks Gamgee (Aug 9, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> Elrond refrains from bonking Isildur on the head with a blunt object and chucking it in while Isildur is out cold.


Who says Elrond would have succeeded? If a fight ensued, it is most likely Isildur would win. This would be, because the Lord of Imladris is trying to take what is most dear to the son of Elendil - the Ring. When Gollum tried to forcefully take the One Ring from Frodo, we see the Baggins having unexpected strength which hadn't been there before. It would probably be the same for Isildur.

And, Elrond would see Isildur as his friend: he just needs to be knocked out, not killed. Isildur would see an enemy, who deserves death.


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## Olorgando (Aug 9, 2021)

Goldilocks Gamgee said:


> And, Elrond would see Isildur as his friend: he just needs to be knocked out, not killed. Isildur would see an enemy, who deserves death.


Quite possibly a valid point. Reinforcing the point that anyone (especially of Men) with power, or even just the prospect of power, would be wide open and massively susceptible to the One Ring's main avenue of attack, delusions of power (note how quickly Sam shrugged off a similar temptation just after he had left Frodo behind, thinking him dead). Royal (aristocratic) Men, unless extremely well instructed (as book Faramir was by Gandalf, to the displeasure of Denethor) are total push-overs for such a temptation.


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## 1stvermont (Aug 9, 2021)

Goldilocks Gamgee said:


> Did it take an army of the Valar storming Middle-Earth to defeat Sauron with the Ring? No. That was done by some Men and Elves.



I think Morgoth had a bit of help no? Sauron was also not at full strength as Tolkien tells us in letters 211 or 212. He had recently corrupted the strongest power in middle earth- the numnroians and just about wiped them all out by himself. Caused eru to remake the world to prevent the corrupted numenorians from destroying Valinor. He was taken out in a manner by the flood and needed time to regroup; this is when the attack was made. The statement I made was not my opinion [that Sauron became stronger] but Tolkiens. To make the argument in full would take more time and effort than I wish to do at the moment.


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