# Religious stuff?



## Hisoka Morrow (Aug 19, 2020)

As you guys know that JRRT mentioned that his owrks "NEVER" involve religions. Yet here comes to a problem...can anyone explain the annual...offering ritual to Valar in Meneltarma of the Numenor Empire?Is that a religious ritual?If not, then what kind of procedure, meaning, or even habitude can be account for this...offering ritual to Valar? 🧐 🧐 🧐


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## Alcuin (Aug 19, 2020)

Hisoka Morrow said:


> As you guys know that JRRT mentioned that his owrks "NEVER" involve religions. Yet here comes to a problem...can anyone explain the annual...offering ritual to Valar in Meneltarma of the Numenor Empire?Is that a religious ritual?If not, then what kind of procedure, meaning, or even habitude can be account for this...offering ritual to Valar?


 The _Erukyermë_ (“Prayer to Eru”), _Erulaitalë_ (“Praise of Eru”), and _Eruhantalë_ (“Thanksgiving to Eru”) exclude any worship of the Valar. All _proper_ worship is directed exclusively toward Eru, never toward _any_ Vala. The Vala who wanted worship was Morgoth, and later Sauron demanded worship as well.

Tolkien never said “that his [work] ‘NEVER’ involve[d] religion[].” Quite the opposite: In _Letter_ 142, he wrote,
The _Lord of the Rings_ is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like “religion”, to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism.​From _Letter_ 165, he wrote that his world
…is a monotheistic world of “natural theology”. The odd fact that there are no churches, temples, or religious rites and ceremonies, is simply part of the historical climate depicted.​In a footnote to _Letter_ 211, he wrote that,
Almost the only vestige of “religion” is … the “Grace before Meat”. This is indeed mainly as it were a commemoration of the Departed, and theology is reduced to “that which is beyond Elvenhome and ever will be”, sc. is beyond the mortal lands, beyond the memory of unfallen Bliss, beyond the physical world.​The abbreviation _sc._ stands for _scilicit_, a Latin contraction of “scire licit” or “it is permitted to know”, meaning “namely; to wit; that is to say.” Tolkien used it often.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Aug 24, 2020)

I see 🧐 🧐 🧐 . After all, religion's strict definition is account for supernatural stuff, while under JRRT's lore, religions=science in general, so that's why there's no need for any special religious organizations, doctrines, scriptures, and so forth aren't necessary at all, right?


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## Alcuin (Aug 24, 2020)

I’m not sure there is an equivalence between “religion” and science. Science is more akin to the studies of the Noldor or the Númenóreans, particularly at the height of their power before the coming of Sauron, or the engineering skills of the Noldor, the Dwarves, and the Dúnedain (Númenóreans). This is best exemplified in Galadriel’s comment to Sam in “The Mirror of Galadriel”, 
[T]his is what your folk would call magic, I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem also to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy.​This is essentially Sir Arthur C Clark’s Third Law,

*Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.*​

_Religion_, on the other hand, of necessity involves _worship_, in English a shorted version of the words “worthy ship”, or in a more modern word, “worthiness”, meaning in our usage “that which is worthy of veneration”. (In more ancient times, “worship” meant “condition of being worthy, dignity, glory, distinction, honor, renown”, and that meaning is retained in the now little-used word _worshipful_ in the sense of “honorable”, as in, “the worshipful Lord Mayor of London”; but that usage has now become rare and quaint.) 

Religion revolves about _who_ (or _what_) deserves respect, adoration, and sacrifice as a divine being, and perhaps those creatures of the divine being that also deserve respect as its representatives, though they do not deserve adoration or sacrifice, except in corrupted forms of religion. In Tolkien’s world, Eru alone was _worthy_ of adoration and sacrifice, not to mention respect, and the Valar, and to a much lesser extent the Maiar, were respected as Eru’s appointed representatives, but never recevied adoration or sacrifice. Since Tolkien says at several points that his subcreation reflects the reality he saw in the world in which we live, this is identical to the Catholic (and generally Christian) view that God alone is _worthy_ of adoration and sacrifice, as well as greatest respect; and the traditional view (Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic, etc.) that that angels and saints are also respected, but not adored or receive sacrifice, as God’s representatives. If you can see religion from that perspective, then the Númenórean _worship_ of Eru atop Meneltarma and the Elvish paeans (songs) to Elbereth (a Vala) make sense; otherwise, I think they become muddled and unclear, leading to the common misapprehension that the Elves worship Elbereth, when in fact they do not. 

This then highlights the _sacrilege_ (literally “stealing the sacred”) of Morgoth’s demanding worship in place of Eru, and later the same demand by Sauron, who in the Third Age proclaimed himself a god-king, and the practices of their followers, which included among other defilements human sacrifice.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Aug 27, 2020)

Alcuin said:


> Religion revolves about _who_ (or _what_) deserves respect, adoration, and sacrifice...





Alcuin said:


> This then highlights the _sacrilege_ (literally “stealing the sacred”) of Morgoth’s demanding worship...


Hmmm...=''=...if that's so, then this means stuff play heavy roles in "revealed theology" like churches, particular scriptures are not so absolutely necessary to religion, for religions revolves about _who_ (or _what_) deserves respect, adoration, and sacrifice instead of being defined as account for supernatural stuff. 
OK, maybe my definition about religions is a bit narrow.(Such definition is from my citizen education student book)😖



Alcuin said:


> For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism.





Alcuin said:


> …is a monotheistic world of “natural theology”....


If this involves not only "revealed theology"'s stuff like adoration and sacrifice but also “natural theology” such as respect, then this can be a specific account for how JRRT's lore's religions would be operated. 
After all, “natural theology” seem emphasizes "relationship" instead of "religions"(Yeah, this is the brand Christians priests always like to say in sermons , Christianity is a relationship between "God and Believers" instead of religions XDDD). So this accounts for why JRRT's religions seem not so religious XD And according to JRRT's tense Christianity backround.


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## Alcuin (Aug 27, 2020)

I don’t think Tolkien’s Christianity was “tense”. He was devout, according to all reports. As time went on, he came to view his work as a “subcreation” within the greater Creation that is reality, and he sought, however successfully or unsuccessfully, to refrain from “overstepping” any bounds as a created being in the overarching Creation. 

One thing Tolkien said he would not attempt was a story involving the Incarnation of God (in Judaism and Christianity, the Messiah: see _Letter_ 181). But the three voices narrated in “Leaf by Niggle” are, I think, almost certainly the Holy Trinity discussing Niggle and his sojourn in Purgatory. (If I remember correctly, there is something of a similar sort in Boris Pasternak’s _Dr Zhivago_.)

Tolkien was an admirer of the work of Andrew Lang, the Scottish poet, critic, and anthropologist. Lang argued that the most primitive societies all possessed a belief in a “High God” or “All Father”, a belief he called Urmonotheism (_ur_=“old” + _monotheism_), and that instead of moving from belief in many gods to belief in one god, societies actually moved from belief in one god to belief in many gods _because_ while the “All Father” did not prefer one clan or tribe or nation over another, these lesser gods might be bribed to offer preferences. I am not myself a student of Lang’s work, but I strongly suspect that it deeply influenced Tolkien’s writing.


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