# Gandalf the White



## Angelica (Nov 5, 2003)

I recently started listening to LOR on CDs and they got to the point where the trio meets Gandalf in white clothes. And then Gandalf describes how he became white.

I understood that he was fighting with that fire-creature and won. But then I didn't get it. DId he die and was reborn? Where did he get the white clothes?? 

And Sauruman(sp?) also had white clothes - did he do smth noble too?

Thanks!!!


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## Eriol (Nov 5, 2003)

He died; and was sent back (for a time, as he says) to finish the job. Galadriel clothed him in white. But even naked he was already a 'different man', since Gwaihir (the eagle that took him to Lothlórien) said that he was as light as a feather.

I hope that helped 

Oh, I almost forgot about Saruman; he was always 'the White', when he arrived on Middle-Earth he was already wearing white as a personal color. He did not measure up to the color , but surely he did good things in his first years at Middle-Earth.

But ultimately Saruman failed; Gandalf says to Gimli at that meeting, "I am Saruman, or what Saruman should have been". He should have been noble, but wasn't.


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## Angelica (Nov 5, 2003)

Thank you! THat cleared it up.  Sometimes I feel like they speak in riddles on these CDs. Thanks again.


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## Gil-Galad (Nov 5, 2003)

Exactly Eriol!!!
I would like also to add that all Istari(Gandalf,Radagast,Saruman,the two blue ones)were noble ,because they were Maiar,sent by the Valar to keep an eye on Middle-earth and to help people.They had different colours probably because they were sent by different Valar.For example Aule sent Saruman,Manwe-> Galdalf and so on.....But I think the colours are not that important.
All of them,ok let's say Saruman, Radagst and Gandalf did many good things in the beginning,but having "bodies" was difficult and they were exposed to some man weaknesses.Only Gandalf did not lose the right way and he did his task.


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## Gandalf The Grey (Nov 5, 2003)

Hail and well met, *Gil-Galad:* 

* enters, smoking a conversational pipeful of Longbottom Leaf, bows greetings to Gil-Galad and to all other conversationalists here present *

When you say that the colors of wizardly robes are not that important, do you mean to say, in proportion to the completion of the quest and being true to the mission? If so, I heartily agree that substance trumps mere symbolism, or ought to. 

That said, in my travels around Middle Earth I once found someone named *akhtene* who described the possible meaning of the colors bequeathed to each of the Istari like this.



> *white* - the purest colour, meaning the greatest fighter with evil (the one Saruman was supposed to be).
> 
> *grey* - that's for something/one obscure, like 'grey cardinal'(if that sounds right in English), the one who gives advice and teaches without claiming any obvious power; or grey can be the colour of road clothes and road dust, as Gandalf had to travel a lot.
> 
> ...



To the above, I'd like to add my own mention of Saruman's shifting from Saruman the White to Saruman of Many Colors ... a topic worthy of exploration in a thread in its own right, I deem!  

Getting back to the topic at hand, I was once questioned as to whether the personality of Gandalf the Grey changed on becoming Gandalf the White. If you go by the personality description posted at http://www.typelogic.com/intj.html under the Fictional category, Gandalf the Grey is listed as an INTJ. It was my contention that Gandalf keeps the same personality, only that personality grows and deepens, with Gandalf shedding some of the weaker aspects of the INTJ personality type and gaining more of its strengths. I'd love to hear other opinions on the matter.

Welcoming further conversation,

Gandalf the Grey


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## Gil-Galad (Nov 6, 2003)

Hmmm....I like the idea od symbolism.The white colour is a nice interpretation.The grey one could also be said to be a mysterious one,because it is a mixture of black and white.That could mean that the grey Istar had some more abilities than he had shown.
But I cannot agree about the brown Istar and the symbol.The colour of the forest is green.The blue ones could be related with the sea.
As a whole I believe it is a question of personal interpretation.


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## Gandalf White (Nov 6, 2003)

I believe the colors _were_ important, to a certain extent. They designated the order of wizards, so they must have had some meaning. 

I don't believe that one can say they wore different colors because they were sent by different Valar. If that was the case, when Manwe sent Gandalf back, wouldn't he have worn grey again? Instead he wears white, signifying his greater power, and new position as head of the order. (In fact, the only 'real' member.)


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## Eriol (Nov 6, 2003)

Er... I don't mean to nitpick (but of course that's what I'll do ).

Manwë didn't influence Gandalf's "choice of color" upon his return; Gandalf did not talk with Manwë or consult with him in any manner. Gandalf went straight to Eru, and was sent back by Eru. I don't have books here but I think this is pretty clear in some Letters.

As for the "choice of colors", there were only three persons involved -- Eru himself, Gandalf, and Galadriel. Either Gandalf came back with instructions from Eru to clothe himself in white, or Galadriel suggested it to him, as a "statement". The change of colors is indeed a powerful statement. 

I prefer the second option; I think Galadriel was quite important in the decision to "change colors" upon Gandalf's return. I have the nagging suspicion that there is something to that effect in the chapter of TTT dealing with the reunion of Gandalf and the Three Hunters; and it also fits my idea of Galadriel as a (not-so-much) hidden force in the story.


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## Gil-Galad (Nov 6, 2003)

Or it was a question of personal choice?



> Then Manwe asked ,where was Olorin?And Olorin,who was clad in grey,and having just entered from a journey had seated himself at the edge of the council,asked what Manwe would have of him.





> But Olorin declated he was too weak for such a task and that he feared Sauron.



It could be stated that it was a personal choice,or a question of character.We could say thatGandalf did not believe in his strenght,in his abilities to oppose Sauron and that's why he was grey,but when he returned he took white clothes because he believed that it was time to take everything in his hands.Don't forget that he believed till the last moment that Saruman was still good,and he was the leader of the Istari.When Gandalf returned he probably realized that it was time he to take care of everything,he probably started believing in his abilities and thus he returned white.
And in the same time Saruman had the "comfort" to believe he was the most powerful and the best among the Istari,he was too proud and that could be one of the reasons for taking white clothes.
All these things are nothing but a simple idea....


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## Starflower (Nov 6, 2003)

i think the colours here can be interpreted as being connected to personality ( especially the white-grey issue). Saruman is described as proud and lordly, one reason why he would choose white, and Gandalf is the kind of person who doesn't want attention drawn to them. Grey is a very nondescript colour, easy to blend in the crowd, easy to forget. But then he comes back as white, how would we interpret that ? I think the choice of color has something to do with the idea of him being "purged", and also him adopting the colour previously associated with Saruman is highly meaningful. Also Radagast choosing brown, which is a colour associated with all things earthy.


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## Gandalf White (Nov 6, 2003)

Nit-pick away, Eriol!  How else am I going to learn this stuff? 

(I knew something sounded wrong when I said Manwe sent Gandalf back)


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## Dáin Ironfoot I (Nov 6, 2003)

Do you think it is mere coincedence that both Maiar of Aule (Sauron and Saruman) were corrupted in the end? Does this have something to say about Aule, because wasnt he almost corrupted by Melkor?

I think Tolkien is trying to say something by having two Maiar of Aule fall into darkness, though Im not sure what.


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## Malbeth (Nov 6, 2003)

> Do you think it is mere coincedence that both Maiar of Aule (Sauron and Saruman) were corrupted in the end? Does this have something to say about Aule, because wasnt he almost corrupted by Melkor?
> 
> I think Tolkien is trying to say something by having two Maiar of Aule fall into darkness, though Im not sure what.



Also, of the three elf-kindreds the one who "fell into evil" is also associated with Aulë... I think that Tolkien was trying to say that the desire to create things for themselves (associated with Aulë) can be easily turned into a desire to create things to control others... the difference between good magic and bad magic in Tolkien's works.


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## Gil-Galad (Nov 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Dáin Ironfoot I _
> *Do you think it is mere coincedence that both Maiar of Aule (Sauron and Saruman) were corrupted in the end? Does this have something to say about Aule, because wasnt he almost corrupted by Melkor?
> 
> I think Tolkien is trying to say something by having two Maiar of Aule fall into darkness, though Im not sure what. *



I think there is a relation between Melkor,Aule,Sauron,Saruman and the Noldor.They all are extremely talented and capable.They are ambition,proud and all desire to improve everything.But having these features they become easily influenced by tha dark side.Thus a small step in the wrong way may casue their fall in the darkness.That happens to Melkor,Sauron,and to some Noldor,it almost happen to Aule too.
But this is a huge topic on which I am working now for the Guild of Tolkienology and I hope I will post the lecture soon and you will have the chance to read it.It will best explain the relation between all these characters.


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## Lantarion (Nov 7, 2003)

Still on the issue of the colours of the Istari:

I think the colour white has directly to do with the so-called 'Valinorean stature' of the Istar in question; Saruman was the most powerful of the Istari, as designated in Unfinished Tales and by his leadership of the Istari in LotR, and wore white. When Gandalf became the more powerful of the two, he wore white; and at this time Saruman had donned the multicoloured robes and basically resigned from his position as head Istar. 

The way I see it, the lighter colour an Istar's robes are the more powerful he seems to be (not because of the robes, they just designate the person's stature): Saruman was White, and was the most powerful; Gandalf had great skill with fire, and accomplished the most of all the Istari because of his psychologicla skill and his kindness, and was thus only less powerful than Saruman by the definition of 'Valinorean stature' (which, as I see it, basically denotes magical prowess as well as wisdom), and Gadnalf wore Grey which was a slightly darker shade of white basically; Radagast had no real skills, it seems, except that he was able to converse with animals and probably plants as well, but who is to say that all Maiar couldn't do the same? Anyway, he accomplished least of the Istari, though he did not wholly relinquish his quest, and Radagast wore Brown, which is a dark colour in relation to White and Grey.
And as for the Ithryn Luin, as their colour is Blue it would seem to denote that they were less powerful than Saruman or Gandalf but still possessed some sort of magical skill.

This is my theory anyway.


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## Gil-Galad (Nov 7, 2003)

Well,that was a nice theory,definitely.But Lanti,how will you explain the blue colour?I mean,we can say white->grey ->brown ,but where t oput blue?And what kind of skills is blue supposed to represent?

The colours I used are not exactly brown and grey but anyaway


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## Manveru (Nov 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Gil-Galad _
> *Well,that was a nice theory,definitely.But Lanti,how will you explain the blue colour?I mean,we can say white->grey ->brown ,but where t oput blue?And what kind of skills is blue supposed to represent?
> 
> The colours I used are not exactly brown and grey but anyaway   *


Hmm... Blue... simply the best ()!

Seriously... I don't believe in such "hierarchy" of colours... I mean, I agree that white was the supreme one (meant the so-called "head" of the order or council--like Saruman), but that the rest of the Istari were "leveling" lower because of their colours... well... tough one... don't wanna speculate (I'm not good at that).

For me the "symbolic" meaning of the white as the most powerful is that the main goal of the Istari was to oppose Sauron (hmm... what was his colour? Ah, black). So the most powerful of them wore white robes... simple opposite: white vs. black... good vs. evil...

And where to put 'blue'? GG, I thought Lantarion had answered your question before you asked it:


> _Originally posted by Lantarion:_
> *And as for the Ithryn Luin, as their colour is Blue it would seem to denote that they were less powerful than Saruman or Gandalf but still possessed some sort of magical skill.*


I guess they were somewhere in the middle... striving for the third place (as blue is a little lighter colour than brown).


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## Gil-Galad (Nov 7, 2003)

Ok if this is true(about the blue ones)why don't we have a green one and an orange one and yeah,there should have been also and pink  one.
Come on,it is ridiculous.Tolkien could have chosen red  for example instead of blue !!Why did he chose blue.I saw some good suggestions about white,grey and brown,but not for blue.

hmmhmhm this post is really colorful one!!


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## Gandalf White (Nov 7, 2003)

We're the ones who should be asking you this question. If it was personal choice as you say, why didn't one of them choose purple?  

In answer to your question, we can discard pink and orange. Those colors are simply ridiculous. Red? Besides being too "bright" and out-of-place, red can often be a symbol of evil. (Sauron's eye?) So we are left with blue and green. Why isn't there one of both? Why did Tolkien choose two blue wizards? 

Interesting how both of these wizards apparently went the same path in falling away. This definitely suggests that color 
_did_ have some significance. Perhaps not in rank, but definitely in personality or mindset.


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## Gil-Galad (Nov 7, 2003)

RED????? You forget Narya!!!!!!!Red can be the colour of the passion,of the new fire which will light the hearts of all good creatures to oppose the evil!!!


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## Gandalf The Grey (Nov 7, 2003)

Earlier in this thread, someone stated that:



> Radagast had no real skills, it seems, except that he was able to converse with animals and probably plants as well.



Something to keep in mind, however, are these words from "The Council of Elrond":



> Radagast is, of course, a worthy Wizard, a master of shapes and changes of hue; and he has much lore of herbs and beasts, and birds are especially his friends.



Gandalf the Grey


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## Red Istar (Nov 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Gil-Galad _
> *RED????? You forget Narya!!!!!!!Red can be the colour of the passion,of the new fire which will light the hearts of all good creatures to oppose the evil!!! *



Now _that_ I agree with.  

Radagast was most defintely not powerless!


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## Gil-Galad (Nov 8, 2003)

Well,I have to agree that Radagast was not powerless,if he was he wouldn't be sent in Middle-earth.But I do think he became powerless with the time,because he chose the wrong way.


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## Ithrynluin (Nov 8, 2003)

Perhaps the colours of the Istari should not be taken that literally. 

Saruman is not necessarily greater than the other Istari, or at least Gandalf. He may have been elected as the head of the Istari simply because he was, like Sauron, a Maia of Aulë's people, and has studied ring lore extensively.



> _The Silmarillion: Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age_
> ...and in that time was first made the Council of the Wise that is called the White Council, and therein were Elrond and Galadriel and Círdan, and other lords of the Eldar, and with them were Mithrandir and Curunír. And Curunír (that was Saruman the White) was chosen to be their chief, for he had most studied the devices of Sauron of old.





> _Unfinished Tales_
> Saruman soon became jealous of Gandalf, and this rivalry turned at last to a hatred, the deeper for being concealed, and the more bitter in that Saruman knew in his heart that the Grey Wanderer had the greater strength, and the greater influence upon the dwellers in Middle-earth, even though he hid his power and desired neither fear nor reverence. Saruman did not revere him, but he grew to fear him, being ever uncertain how much Gandalf perceived of his inner mind, troubled more by his silences than by his words. So it was that openly he treated Gandalf with less respect than did others of the Wise, and was ever ready to gainsay him or to make little of his counsels; while secretly he noted and pondered all that he said, setting a watch, so far as he was able, upon all his movements.



Looks like we shouldn't take Saruman as the greatest simply on account of the colour of his robes!

I think the Blue Wizards were meant to journey into the far East from the very beginning. I'd say they were pretty powerful, somewhere up there with Saruman and Gandalf. After all they had to be - the scope of their mission was rather difficult to achieve (prevent Sauron from totally dominating all men of the East).

Also keep in mind, that white is not always indicative of being the greatest. Vilya, the greatest Elven ring, had a BLUE stone, while Nenya had a white one...


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## Lantarion (Nov 8, 2003)

Haha, you're absolutely right Ithryn. But in general, White is held to be the power of Good and Black the power of Evil. There is no simpler way of putting it! SO perhaps when Saruman cast off his White robes, he cast off the last shreds of his kindness and Goodness.
Anyway the way I _saw_ it before all these people smarter than me came up with brighter ideas  was this: 
In order from most powerful to least.

white --> grey --> blue --> brown





> _Originally posted by Red Istar_
> Radagast was most defintely not powerless!


Oh certainly not, I agree. And I had forgotten that quote from the COuncil of Elrond too, thanks GandalftheGrey.
What I actually meant to convey with what I said was that Radagast was portrayed, intentionally, as the weakest of the Istari in strength, which I believe cannot be denied, and I tried to therefore justify Tolkien's use of the colour Brown in connection with him, as something other than the colour of the forest (which I believe is also a very plausible explanation).


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## Gil-Galad (Nov 8, 2003)

The idea about Vilya and Nenya is really impressive.But where would you put Narya then,Ithy?Between them?


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## Ithrynluin (Nov 8, 2003)

Vilya is the most powerful, followed by Nenya and then Narya I think.

Of course I agree with white being the supreme colour of good, as opposed to black being representative of evil, but it's interesting to try and come up with alternative analogies. 

If we look at the Three Rings again, we see that Vilya has a blue stone, and this is the greatest of the three. It is also called the Ring of Air, and this is all reminiscent of Manwë, the greatest of the Valar - the sky is blue and perhaps blue is a colour of great importance. Nenya, the Ring of Water, and the second most powerful, is the same colour as water - white, and this is reminiscent of Ulmo, the second greatest Vala. And Narya, the Ring of Fire, the third greatest, reminds us of Aulë, the third greatest Vala. 

So _just maybe_ blue has more importance to it than some of you have assumed. I think I'd put the Blue Wizards higher on the scale than where they are on yours, Lanty.


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## Red Istar (Nov 8, 2003)

> Saruman knew in his heart that the Grey Wanderer had the greater strength, and the greater influence upon the dwellers in Middle-earth, even though he hid his power and desired neither fear nor reverence.



Ah, but then how did Sauraman imprison Gandalf on top of the Orthanc?  

I think we're thinking to hard about the whole color thing, peeps.


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## Gil-Galad (Nov 8, 2003)

Ithyn I do like the idea about the blue colour and the Istari.But if the blue color represented such a big might,why the blue wizards failed?I mean Saruman and Radagast failed too,but they did many things before their fall,while the blue ones did nothing important.


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## Ithrynluin (Nov 8, 2003)

Who says they failed? Tolkien's views on the Blue Wizards are conflicting at best. We know nothing of their actions whatsoever.


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## Gil-Galad (Nov 9, 2003)

Probably we don't know nothing,because they did not nothing imortant and Tolkien did not find a reason to speak about them.The only thing we know is that they porbably started doing tings related with occultism.I don't have the book next to me right now (UT) and I cannot provide the quote,but I do remember this passage in the book.


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## Gandalf The Grey (Nov 9, 2003)

The only related quotes I'm coming across in Unfinished Tales right now are these two:



> Of the Blue little was known in the West ... for they passed into the East with Curunír, but they never returned, and whether they remained in the East, pursuing there the purposes for which they were sent; or perished; or as some hold were ensnared by Sauron and became his servants, is not now known. But none of these chances were impossible to be; for, strange indeed though this may seem, the Istari, being clad in bodies of Middle Earth, might even as Men and Elves fall away from their purposes, and do evil, forgetting the good in the search for power to effect it.





> It might be (though this is the merest guess) that Oromë of all the Valar had the greatest knowledge of the further parts of Middle-earth, and that the Blue Wizards were destined to journey in those regions and to remain there.



I seem to remember another quote taking a different view in which the Blue Wizards kept the situation in the East from becoming worse than it was ... is anyone else of like memory and can find this other quote?

Gandalf the Grey


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## Ithrynluin (Nov 9, 2003)

> _The History of Middle Earth XII: The Peoples of Middle Earth_
> But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinehtar and Romestamo. Darkness-slayer and East-helper. Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion...and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause [? dissension and disarray] among the dark East ... They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East...who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West.


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## Gil-Galad (Nov 9, 2003)

I think this quote clarifies the importance of the blue wizards.Thank you Ithy,you are awlays here when we need you help!!


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