# Bilbo's location differences in 2 books



## toothpick (Nov 11, 2011)

I have noticed something strange, when Tolkien describes Bilbo's home in "The Hobbit" he refers to it as: "Over hill", "Under hill", "Bywater".
But in "Lord of the Rings" he refers to it as "Bagshot row", "Bag end", "Hobbiton", "The Shire".
Why do the locations not appear in both books, but in each book separately?

Thanks.


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## Elthir (Nov 11, 2011)

Without checking the history of _The Hobbit_, I'm guessing that the general answer is probably external -- that is, perhaps Tolkien hadn't yet invented a more detailed picture of the Shire and its place-names.

Overhill, The Hill, and Bywater appear in _The Lord of the Rings,_ for examples, but again it's probably that Tolkien invented a more detailed picture after _The Hobbit_ had been published.


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## jallan (Jan 26, 2012)

I don’t think that Bilbo’s home is ever called _Over hill_ in either _The Hobbit_ or _The Lord of the Rings_. In _The Lord of the Rings_ there appears on the initial map called “A PART OF THE SHIRE” a village called _Overhill_ just north of _The Hill_ in which Bilbo lives, presumably so named because this settlement was located “over [the] hill”.

_Underhill_ would be the name of the settlement of Hobbits who lived “under [the] hill”, and would include the residence of Bag End. In the first chapter of _The Hobbit_ Bilbo is once called “Mr. Baggins of Bag-End, Underhill”. See http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Hobbiton for Tolkien’s own illustration which shows _The Hill_ and part of the community of _Underhill_ with Bag End at the top of _The Hill_ and a road beneath it containing three other Hobbit holes. The road probably continues around _The Hill_ leading to further Hobbit holes. 

_Hobbiton_, in both _The Hobbit _ and _The Lord of the Rings_, is the name of a larger community that includes _Hobbiton-across-the-water_ that includes _Underhill_.

Tolkien’s illustration shows the Old Grange between _Underhill_ and _The Water_.

_Bywater_, in both _The Hobbit_ and _The Lord of the Rings_, is a different community outside of _Hobbiton_, but also lying “by [the] water”, whence its name. It is shown clearly on the map called “A PART OF THE SHIRE” to be situated east of _Hobbiton_ which fits with the text.

_Bagshot Row_ is the name of the road running south of Bag End in Tolkien’s illustration. In his “Guide to the Names in the Lord of the Rings” Tolken writes:


The row of small ‘holes’ in the lane below Bag End, said to have been so named because the earth removed in excavating Bag End was shot over the edge of the sudden fall in the hillside onto the ground which later became the gardens and earthwalls of the humbler dwellings.​

_The Shire_ does not appear in _The Hobbit_ and seems to have been invented by Tolkien later. The current edition of _The Hobbit_ only mentions “hobbit-lands” which would correspond to _The Shire_ and _Buckland_ in _The Lord of the Rings_.


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## Troll (Jan 27, 2012)

jallan said:


> _The Shire_ does not appear in _The Hobbit_ and seems to have been invented by Tolkien later. The current edition of _The Hobbit_ only mentions “hobbit-lands” which would correspond to _The Shire_ and _Buckland_ in _The Lord of the Rings_.


 
Really? I don't think I ever noticed this. :*eek: How interesting... I wish I had a copy of the Hobbit with comparisons between the original and the 1960 update, just so I wouldn't miss little things like that in the evolution of the legendarium.


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## Bellandor (Jan 31, 2012)

toothpick said:


> I have noticed something strange, when Tolkien describes Bilbo's home in "The Hobbit" he refers to it as: "Over hill", "Under hill", "Bywater".
> But in "Lord of the Rings" he refers to it as "Bagshot row", "Bag end", "Hobbiton", "The Shire".
> Why do the locations not appear in both books, but in each book separately?
> 
> Thanks.



Just for your interest

Samwise Gamgee and Ham Gamgee lived at number 3 Bagshot Row just below Bag End.


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## Bucky (Feb 2, 2012)

Just a note:

Isn't Bywater simply mentioned in _The Hobbit_ in Thorin's note on the mantle to Bilbo?

'Be at the Gren Dragon in _Bywater_ at 10 Am.. Trust you will be _punctual, 

_ Your's Thorin And Company

That's all I recall, although there might be more mentions in the first few pages.


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## jallan (Apr 18, 2012)

Bywater is mentioned again very soon after:
… and running as fast as his furry feet could carry him down the lane, past the great Mill, across The Water, and then on for a mile or more.
Very puffed he was when he got to Bywater just on the stroke of eleven, and found he had come without his pocket handkerchief.​


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## PaigeSinclaire88 (Dec 16, 2016)

toothpick said:


> I have noticed something strange, when Tolkien describes Bilbo's home in "The Hobbit" he refers to it as: "Over hill", "Under hill", "Bywater".
> But in "Lord of the Rings" he refers to it as "Bagshot row", "Bag end", "Hobbiton", "The Shire".
> Why do the locations not appear in both books, but in each book separately?
> 
> Thanks.




I like the question being posed. Honestly, I read the Hobbit before middle school and in middle school I was reading the trilogy and maybe it was just my broad misunderstanding of locations and maps but I understood it that "the shire" "bag end" "under hill" "over hill" they were all sub parts of the shire, and the shire was a country area part. Because I imagined it being large and country (perhaps the size of Kansas) only bigger and greener. I hope my opinion was of some use.


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