# The near pointlessness of Saruman's scheme



## BalrogRingDestroyer (Jul 31, 2018)

His whole plan hinged on three highly unlikely events, which I think the first one was actually his best bet, had Deagol and Smeagol not gotten there first:

1.) Look for the Ring at the river while letting the Council think it was perished.
2.) Win Gandalf over to his side (something even Saruman said that he doubted would work as he said he had feared that Gandalf wouldn't see "reason" but wanted to give him a chance anyway.)
3.) Get the Ring by force (His best chance was ruined by Boromir, who tried to seize the Ring and caused Frodo to make up his mind to leave and go East over the River.


Given that all three failed and 2 was unlikely even according to him, I don't see what he was hoping for really, as he'd still have to fight Sauron (WITHOUT the help of the White Council, which may not have been too eager to ally with him after his treachery, even if it was a fight against Sauron.) to be able to "win".


Let's give Saruman some help and assume that some of the Uruk-hai were able to get Merry and Pippin to Isengard and that the two weren't able to rouse the Ents. Upon learning of the plan to destroy the Ring and that Frodo was Eru-knows-where (Merry and Pippin would have no clue. For all they knew, the whole Fellowship, minus the mortally wounded Boromir, could have gone east and assumed that they had perished.), what exactly could Saruman do to help himself win? Sure, he could use the Plantir to alert Sauron to the plan, but that would lead to Sauron winning, not himself. Plus, as Saruman could probably guess, Sauron would likely have broken his "alliance" with Saruman had he gotten the Ring back just as quickly as Saruman would have done the same had he gotten the Ring to Isengard. 


Saruman also seems very foolish and stubborn. He was given, as far as we know, more opportunities to repent than even Sauron was! Yet he blew all of them. We don't know what he would have done with his last opportunity that Frodo gave him since Wormtongue killed him, angry at being used to kill Lotho and finally being tired of being Sharky's pawn, but I highly doubt Saruman would have repented even then. His cowardly attempt to kill Frodo after being outnumbered so bad speaks to that as being likely enough.


He seems like a tragic character, though perhaps a less lovable one like Macbeth rather than one more lovable like Romeo and Juliet, in that he had every chance to stay good and even return to good but blew every one of them, yet, it can be assumed, it was quite possible that Sauron, even without the Ring and even though Saruman had the Ring, could have taken it from him, and that was Saruman's BEST case scenario, to get the Ring and fight Sauron with it. 


Even Sauron nearly repented after Melkor's defeat but apparently nothing could make Saurman even CONSIDER repenting.

He didn't give up when Gandalf refused to join him, realizing that he didn't know where the Shire was exactly (if he did, he'd probably have gone into it himself to seize the Ring from Frodo.) and that any attempt to take the Ring might also alert Mordor to what he was up to (even if he'd managed to whack Frodo and take the Ring from him, the Nazgul might be on his tail then.)

He possessed a Palantir, meaning that Sauron probably was looking around Isengard from time to time as Sauron had spotted Saruman at some time in the past.

Saurman could have given up when Wormtongue came and told him that Theoden had been freed from their control and that Gandalf was still alive and was now stronger.

Saruman could have surrendered to Treebeard.

Saruman could have taken Gandalf's offer to join the good side again.

Saruman could have surrendered after Mordor's fall.

Saruman could have finally surrendered when beaten by the Hobbits in the Scourging of the Shire.

He refused to repent in ALL of those situations. 


It would seem that even Sauron, Wormtongue, and Gollum came closer to redemption than he ever did.


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## Ron Simpson (Jul 31, 2018)

I would agree with much of that: I can't see how he could ever have achieved his ultimate aim, though he caused some grevious damage with his aspirations. He certainly came off as a bit snooty from the minute he stepped off the boat at the Grey Havens (see UT description). Then as he settled down at Angrenost and started plotting for political dominance (see Treebeard's comment), that snootiness turned to arrogance & delusion (see link to SES's post) which ultimately clouded his judgement. (and let's not forget about the pipe-weed !)

_['The first to come was one of noble mien and bearing, with raven hair, and a fair voice, and he was clad in white'] Unfinished Tales_

_["I think that I now understand what Saruman is up to. He is plotting to become a Power."]
Treebeard, TTT, LoTR_

The Squint Eyed Scholar nicely summed up Saruman's delusions here: http://www.thetolkienforum.com/inde...weaknesss-or-inevitability.23609/#post-517336


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## darkG (Aug 10, 2018)

Repent, yeah, but that would mean a lot of things, not half as sexy as being a on Saurons team, feeling important and on the, as it would seem, winning side. Remember, both Galadriel and Gandalf really wanted the power the Ring would bring, yet choose differently. They would have been like Saruman, had they failed that temptation. (Or would they?)

Also, said Ron above, "arrogance & delusion ultimately clouded his judgement".


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## Deleted member 12094 (Aug 11, 2018)

In my view, darkG is right.

S continued to feel like having absolute wisdom, no matter the turn of events.


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## BalrogRingDestroyer (Aug 30, 2018)

That actually leads to another interesting question, one that deals with Sauron as well as Saruman.

You see, perhaps, like Sauron, Saruman's move to the side of evil was that he thought he was doing good and "fixing" the disordered world.

For those that have seen Avatar The Last Airbender, you recall how Firelord Sousan noticed how the Earth Kingdom was always fighting amongst itself (and there may have been problems among the other tribes), so he decided to have the Fire Nation invade the other nations, hoping to bring order by having the Fire Nation rule everything. Noble goal, horrible methods.

Was that something Sauron hoping to achieve something similar by conquering everyone in order to achieve "order"? I think, from what I can gather of Saruman, though, that his goal of the Ring, based on other things he's done, including messing with that Palantir, was to gain lots of knowledge, with which he hoped to "fix" everything. Remember, Saruman studied the arts of Sauron for a good while, at first to help know them in order to better defeat Sauron, but, I think, at some point, he began to become enamored of the "Dark Side" and began to want to actually use it, thinking the other guys in the Council of the Wise fools for not wanting to use it.

And, I'm sure Sauron in the Palantir played off of his vanity here too and humored him. 


In this case, Saruman, at least until he trashed the Shire out of sheer spite, probably thought he was in the right for what he was doing.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Aug 30, 2018)

BalrogRingDestroyer said:


> That actually leads to another interesting question, one that deals with Sauron as well as Saruman.
> 
> You see, perhaps, like Sauron, Saruman's move to the side of evil was that he thought he was doing good and "fixing" the disordered world.
> 
> ...



I borrowed this from this Reddit comment, I like the way that the user summed it up:


> Thus, as 'Morgoth', when Melkor was confronted by the existence of other inhabitants of Arda, by other wills and intelligences, he was enraged by the mere fact of their existence, and his only notion of dealing with them was by physical force, or the fear of it. His sole ultimate object was their destruction. Elves, and still more Men, he despised because of their 'weakness': that is their lack of physical force, or power over 'matter'; but he was also afraid of them. He was aware, at any rate originally when still capable of rational thought, that he could not 'annihilate' them: that is, destroy their being; but their physical 'life', and incarnate form became increasingly to his mind the only thing that was worth considering. Or he became so far advanced in Lying that he lied even to himself, and pretended that he could destroy them and rid Arda of them altogether.
> 
> Sauron had never reached this stage of nihilistic madness. He did not object to the existence of the world, so long as he could do what he liked with it. He still had the relics of positive purposes, that descended from the good of the nature in which he began: it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall, and of his relapse) that he loved order and co-ordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction. (It was the apparent will and power of Melkor to effect his designs quickly and masterfully that had first attracted Sauron to him.) Sauron had, in fact, been very like Saruman, and so still understood him quickly and could guess what he would be likely to think and do, even without the aid of _palantíri_ or of spies; whereas Gandalf eluded and puzzled him. But like all minds of this cast, Sauron's love (originally) or (later) mere understanding of other individual intelligences was correspondingly weaker; and though the only good in, or rational motive for, all this ordering and planning and organization was the good of all inhabitants of Arda (even admitting Sauron's right to be their supreme lord), his 'plans', the idea coming from his own isolated mind, became the sole object of his will, and an end, the End, in itself.
> 
> ...


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