# Who can unravel Treebeard's musings?



## Snaga (Dec 20, 2004)

What is the 'Great Darkness' of which he speaks?

He says that the shadow of the Great Darkness has not been lifted from all of the forests. He talks of ents becoming like trees, and trees like ents. Who can explain Old Man Willow?

Where are Tasarninan, Nan-Tasarion, Taur-na-neldor, Orod-na-thon, Ambarona, Tauremorna, Aldeloma and Tauremornalome?

He says the elves 'started it' by waking up trees to talk to them. What is meant and what is implied in this?

He says the ents have not been roused since the days of the wars of the men of the seas and Sauron. This must imply the Second Age. Were the ents aroused then?

(Edit: I just realised I carelessly posted this in the wrong forum. But maybe it is better here. I'll let a mod decide whether it should go in the Lord of the Rings forum.)


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## Confusticated (Dec 20, 2004)

Taur-na-neldor is another (looks like Quenya?) name of Neldoreth, which is part of Doriath.Tasarinan and Tar-tasarion are Quenya names for the Land of Willows. For proof of this look up the common Sindarin forms Neldoreth and Nan-tethrin in the Sil's index. So those are both in Beleriand. 

Don't know what Orod-na-thon is.. something about mountains and pines perhaps? Mountain of pines? Maybe a name of Dorthonion? Pure speculation. Note that he mentions this in the line after he mentions Dorthonion, as he did with the two Quenya names of the Land of Willows, and with Neldoreth. I think the other names are perhaps names of Fangorn they refer to a forest I am sure, sounds like a gloomy one too. Again speculation.

---

_*p.s.*_ I'm pretty sure the Great Darkness he mentions was Sauron's in the Second Age (days of flight). He mentions the elves going over sea when this Darkness came, and unlike the elves of Eregion and that area, the Elves who left Eriador in the First Age (Green Elves) didn't go over sea, but into Beleriand.


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## Confusticated (Dec 20, 2004)

I was wrong about that string of words after Ambarona... they aren't words for Fangorn at all. It is translated in appendix F.


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## aragil (Dec 20, 2004)

Good to see you back, snagster!

But more importantly for implications in _Uruks vs. Uruk-hai_, what could Treebeard possibly mean by


> It is a mark of evil things that came in the Great Darkness that they cannot abide the Sun; but Saruman's Orcs can endure it, even if they hate it. I wonder what he has done? Are they Men he has ruined, or has he blended the races of Orcs and Men?



Treebeard references a 'Great Darkness' three seperate times, in fairly different contexts (including the above passage). I'd say he uses it to indicate a period where a dark lord (Morgoth or Sauron) was ascendant in Middle-earth politics- either 1st age prior to the chaining, or 2nd age prior to the fall of Numenor.

If we're to go by knowledge in the Sil (and why not?- this seems an appropriate enough forum) then I'd say the Elves 'beginning it' refers to the use of language and teaching it to the Ents. The Sil says that after Aule and Yavanna had it out that the Ents came into being, but didn't appear to become sentient until chats were started with the Elvises.

For interesting speculation on Ents at the Mother of all Battles (i.e. Last Alliance), see JeffF's post here. Apparently not only were they fighting, but if you want to get literal about it, some were fighting on each side. Maybe the Ents vs. the Entwives?


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## Barliman Butterbur (Dec 20, 2004)

Snaga said:


> What is the 'Great Darkness' of which he speaks?
> 
> He says that the shadow of the Great Darkness has not been lifted from all of the forests. He talks of ents becoming like trees, and trees like ents. Who can explain Old Man Willow?
> 
> ...



Didn't you just get married??? And you're thinking of this???!! 

(Ooh, the browser's gotten new buttons!)

Barley


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## Arvegil (Dec 21, 2004)

aragil said:


> Treebeard references a 'Great Darkness' three seperate times, in fairly different contexts (including the above passage). I'd say he uses it to indicate a period where a dark lord (Morgoth or Sauron) was ascendant in Middle-earth politics- either 1st age prior to the chaining, or 2nd age prior to the fall of Numenor.


Since he is specifically referring to the Orcs' creation and lack of tolerance for sunlight, I suggest he was actually referring to the Years of the Trees, when the Orcs were made. Middle-Earth, without the benefit of the light of the Two Trees, would have been arguably a time of "great darkness."

QUERY: this darkness would have seemed greater had Treebeard lived, even in a non-sentient, non-self aware state, during the Springtime of Arda, and the time of the lamps. Has there ever been any discussion on whether the Ents were made as an entirely new life form, or perhaps whether they were pre-existing life made sentient. Or am I going WAY past all documentation?


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## aragil (Dec 21, 2004)

Arvegil said:


> Since he is specifically referring to the Orcs' creation and lack of tolerance for sunlight, I suggest he was actually referring to the Years of the Trees, when the Orcs were made. Middle-Earth, without the benefit of the light of the Two Trees, would have been arguably a time of "great darkness."


 His three (four, sir!) mentions of a "Great Darkness" are as follows:


> 'Aye, aye, something like, but much worse. I do not doubt there is some shadow of the *Great Darkness* lying there still away north; and bad memories are handed down.
> ...
> Elves began it, of course, waking trees up and teaching them to speak and learning their tree-talk. They always wished to talk to everything, the old Elves did. But then the *Great Darkness* came, and they passed away over the Sea, or fled into far valleys, and hid themselves, and made songs about days that would never come again.
> ...
> ...


 I'd say the 3rd and 4th refer to a period of time (1st age, by the looks of it), the second refers to an entity (Morgoth, prior to his chaining), and the first refers to some combination of an entity and a time period, or perhaps even a locale. Tough to say.


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## Confusticated (Dec 21, 2004)

Arvegil said:


> QUERY: this darkness would have seemed greater had Treebeard lived, even in a non-sentient, non-self aware state, during the Springtime of Arda, and the time of the lamps. Has there ever been any discussion on whether the Ents were made as an entirely new life form, or perhaps whether they were pre-existing life made sentient. Or am I going WAY past all documentation?



Well my interpretation of Yavanna's conversation with Manwe is that these were once trees who were inhabited by spirits after the Elves woke. Perhaps even spirits from outide of Arda. I kind of like to imagine the elves summoned them. You could argue against this though. But if it's true, they did not exist as Ents until after the Lamps. They may have existed as Trees though, as you asked about, non-sentient.

I'm sure others have different views.

I did some thinking on the chance that this refers to the First Age.... this "Great Darkness' and I guess it could. The problem I had was that I get the impression Eriador wasn't in near as much Darkness during the First Age as it was in the Second.... during the period elves called the Black Days or days of Flight. I'd say during the same time much of forest was destroyed.

There were things of evil haunting Eriador even before Morgoth returned to Middle-earth, so it could very well be. And it was Morgoth who made the Trolls, only Sauron who later used them and eventually bread a new kind in the Third Age. 

If the elves woke the Ents on the Great Journey, then these are probably what Treebeard refers to as the old elves, rather than those who later gathered in Eriador coming from ruined Beleriand. So when he goes to say these old elves passed over sea, he may not be talking about the Days of Flight.


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## Snaga (Jan 6, 2005)

Barliman Butterbur said:


> Didn't you just get married??? And you're thinking of this???!!
> 
> (Ooh, the browser's gotten new buttons!)
> 
> Barley


It did take about four months before I wanted to return to Middle Earth! But marrying Wonks means that married life and Tolkien are not incompatible! As yet, I have not found time to research Arvegil's query however.

I do agree however that the Great Darkness must mean a time before the rising of the Sun and the Moon. It doesn't necessary need to be when the Trees were slain - Middle Earth never saw the light of the trees. This would be literal darkness, as opposed to the metaphorical darkness of the Second Age.

On the question of the Ents going to war in the Second Age, it is interesting to theorise that (some) Ents could have been turned by Sauron against the Men of Numenor by the felling of the forests of Eriador - hence fighting on both sides. This might be a better explanation of dark-hearted huorns / Old Man Willow than just an absence of light. Or does the Great Darkness relate more to the time when Melkor was spreading his evil through the very essence of Arda?


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## Urambo Tauro (Jan 7, 2005)

Treebeard does remember a lot... but his age is never revealed, is it?


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## Snaga (Jan 9, 2005)

No, it is not. But Gandalf refers to him as "the oldest of all living things". That in itself is a problematic statement. Is he older than Sauron? Is he older than the nameless things in the deep places of the earth, that are themselves older than Sauron?? Or is this Gandalfian hyperbole?

Now, having returned to the question of Ents siding with Sauron, I am now coming to the conclusion that this is not so surprising. We see most of Treebeard and Quickbeam, but these may not be very typical Ents. Tolkien originally thought of Ents as being quite hostile and possibly evil creatures, and indeed the development of the Old Forest, as an earlier conception than Treebeard seems to date from the time period when Tolkien thought that it would later be revealed that Saruman was in league with the Ents, who were evil trolls who were involved in the imprisonment of Gandalf.

As Tolkien's thinking matured, the Ents took on an altogether more benign character. But the fact that some ents could be turned to evil is fairly clear.


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## Skylo (Jan 12, 2005)

a troll vs. treebeard i wonder whos gonna win?
i'm a big fan of trolls and balrogs


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