# If you could change only 5 things in the New Line Cinema Tolkien universe.



## Þráinn Þórhallsson (Jun 8, 2021)

Okay, here is the game if you could only change 5 things about the New Line Cinema Tolkien universe what would it be. You can say make nr.5 ''delete all of it'' if you want but you have to mention 4 other items before that and only other 4 changes. In other words what ever problem you might have with the New Line Cinema movies, licensed video games or even toys or statues you are welcome so long as you narrow it down to 5.

Here I'll start.
1. No wings on the Balrog
2. Make the Moria Orcs in the Hobbit the same as the Moria Orcs in the LOTR NLC version. This might seem strangely specific but I really liked that design and I see no other reason to make them look different in the Hobbit films other then just doing something different for the sake of being different. Also I would like the first life action LOTR movie design for the Moria Orcs to be seen more because much like the Dwarfs general design in the NLC universe is very blocky and ridget and the Elves overall aesthetic is very lean and smooth the Orcs general aesthetic should be that of the Moria orcs from the first PJ film, that being sharp and pointy.
3. Don't have Smaug stop his calamity just for an one on one face off with Bard. Because it seems really conveniant for him to stop just to talk with the one guy who will defeat him and it just takes me out of the movie not to mention I think Smaug would be even more eager to kill the one guy who is pointing an arrow at him.
4. Don't have Bilbo almost do the Gollum gulp when figthing the spiders in the Desolation of Smaug film. He gets to the age of 800 and he seems only barely corrupted by the one ring in the beginning of LOTR's. No need to hint at such a extreme ring related tik in the beginning of him keeping it.
5.I don't have any problem with Sauron being defeated by Isildur by losing the ring, however have it be that Elendil and Gil-Galad inflict multiple wounds on Sauron and that he is only able to hold himself together via the power of the one ring and then when Isildur cuts it of he can simply no longer sustain the damage. To have him explode because he can't keep all he power that the ring gave him inside of himself honestly makes the ring seem more like a hassel then a power upgrade to me.


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## 1stvermont (Jun 8, 2021)

Off the top of my head i don't really need 5, just pretend the hobbit was never made and ill be happy.


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## Ealdwyn (Jun 9, 2021)

My main complaint about LotR is the way PJ changed the characters out of all recognition.

And what 1stvermont said.


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## Olorgando (Jun 9, 2021)

*Only* 5 things to change *even for any single of the six films* is way too low. And I'd say forget The Hobbit, that's off-scale.
I watched "Fellowship" in the cinema twice within less than half a week. And there weren't just *50* errors there ...


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## Gothmog (Jun 9, 2021)

First thing to do is realise that it is not "The New Line Cinema Tolkien Universe" It is The New Line Cinema middle-earth universe. There is only a few names that link it in any way to Tolkien.

Now then, as for changes, start off by destroying the master and all copies of that abomination of a film put in place of "The Two Towers". Second do the same with the three pieces of rubbish besmirching the title of "The Hobbit". Third. Remove ZenArwen and put in a proper character. Fourth, tell the story from the point of view of the Hobbits. Fifth, Return Aragorn and Faramir to the story.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Jun 10, 2021)

My point is targeted to PJ's.(Including uncut stuff)
1. Emphasizing Faramir wasn't willing to take the Ring but forced to do so much more.
2. Mentioning Saruman was GG briefly in Shire when the scene came to Frodo returning to Shire in ROTK.
3. Showing Aragorn's reluctance to become king only in his memory.
4. Making more Denethor more competent(such as lightening the beacons on his own and managing much more about formal military stuff with Gandalf together acutely), yet much more struggling so that Gondor's bad table could be emphasized.
5. Deleting Eomer's exile and making his plot back to the book's version, added up with much more his interact with Aragorn so that much more background could be accounted more clearly.


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## HirilElfwraith (Jul 23, 2021)

I actually really like the movies, despite their flaws; there's a certain amount of change that's to be expected in adapting to a different medium. That said, there's still Many changes I would make. Here are the most glaring things that break my immersion:

1) Faramir. Faramir my beloved. Cut out the scene where he does the exact opposite of his actions in the book, and instead show his honor and steadfastness by remarking he wouldn't take this thing if he found it by the side of the road, and then keeping his word once he finds out what it is. That's the biggest thing that bothers me. 
2) Relatedly, change that awful scene where Frodo sends Sam away right outside Shelob's lair. It's badly written, contrived, and sours a sweet relationship that's so much at the emotional core of the movies. They should be Together and Holding Hands through that whole scene. 
3) Don't reduce any characters to comic relief. Gimli is the worst offender. Merry and Pippin too, but it bothers me less with them. Gimli in the books is noble, well-spoken, hardy, and intelligent. Merry is clever and observant, and Pippin is young and naive but not stupid. Let them have their own character traits, instead of shoehorning them into roles that flatten and don't fit them. 
4) Stop removing the comedic scenes that are in the book and replacing them with other, worse ones! Moments like "I liked white better" and Aragorn joke-scolding Merry in the Houses of Healing are iconic and I'm deeply sad forever that they get cut and replaced with jokes like "Eowyn can't cook" or other ones I'm probably forgetting. Don't even get me started on the Troll scene from the Hobbit, that one is an absolute travesty. The scene in the book is wonderfully comedic and the corresponding scene in the films is unwatchable. 
5) The Hobbit...oh the Hobbit. I would need a lot more time and a lot more work to address everything about the Hobbit. I do like some of what they did with the personalities of the Dwarves, and I think Martin Freeman's acting is excellent, but it was well and thoroughly botched. I would simplify my problems with the Hobbit movies to this: Cut out everything not in the books and condense it down from three films to one. I might make a few small exceptions for a few interesting scenes not from Bilbo's POV, but on the whole it needed to be much, _much_ less. 

A ton of love and work went into the films, and they were really formative for me when I was younger. However, their primary arrogance is when they try to change from adapting the source material to trying to improve upon it, because almost universally their "improvements" are unimpressive at best to unwatchable at worst. Just don't! Just don't.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jul 23, 2021)

HirilElfwraith said:


> 1) Faramir. Faramir my beloved. Cut out the scene where he does the exact opposite of his actions in the book, and instead show his honor and steadfastness by remarking he wouldn't take this thing if he found it by the side of the road, and then keeping his word once he finds out what it is. That's the biggest thing that bothers me.


This. ^^^ 100 %.




Hisoka Morrow said:


> Emphasizing Faramir wasn't willing to take the Ring but forced to do so much more.


That wouldn't be much of an improvement. Having discussed this crucial moment from the book on several older threads, I'll say here only that, not only is the movie version an assassination of Faramir's character, but it undermines several important themes of LOTR, and indeed of all his writing. The decision to change him because he was "too one-dimensional", as PJ said in an interview, is as clear a demonstration of the shallow thought that went into the process as any I can think of.


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## m4r35n357 (Jul 23, 2021)

Missing (the most important ones story-wise, at least):

Bombadil
Barrow Wight
Glorfindel
Ghan-Buri-Ghan
Sharkey


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## Þráinn Þórhallsson (Jul 23, 2021)

m4r35n357 said:


> Missing (the most important ones story-wise, at least):
> 
> Bombadil
> Barrow Wight
> ...


Well, Sharky is technically in the films, just not called that.


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## m4r35n357 (Jul 24, 2021)

Þráinn Þórhallsson said:


> Well, Sharky is technically in the films, just not called that.


No "technically" about it. Does he say any lines? That character _cannot_ be in the films because Jackson gratuitously kills Saruman.


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## grendel (Jul 24, 2021)

1 - Don't dumb down Faramir.
2 - Don't pretend Bombadil never existed.
3 - Don't try to make Arwen a warrior princess.
4 - Don't ignore the Scouring of the Shire. The aftermath was an important part of war to Tolkien.
5 - I rather liked the Hobbit films, but Tauriel? Don't make s**t up out of thin air just because Hollywood. (See also #3)


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## Aukwrist (Aug 26, 2021)

Þráinn Þórhallsson said:


> Okay, here is the game if you could only change 5 things about the New Line Cinema Tolkien universe what would it be. You can say make nr.5 ''delete all of it'' if you want but you have to mention 4 other items before that and only other 4 changes. In other words what ever problem you might have with the New Line Cinema movies, licensed video games or even toys or statues you are welcome so long as you narrow it down to 5.
> 
> Here I'll start.
> 1. No wings on the Balrog
> ...



The ideal film would be something more like the 1981 BBC radio dramatisation, which was absolutely first-rate.

1. Make Denethor, Faramir, Elrond, Gimli, Legolas and everyone else the characters they are in the book. No misanthrope Elrond or comic relief Gimli

2. Put back in minor but important characters like Hirgon and Ioreth. Not necessarily Bergil, because he may not affect the plot. Put back Anborn and Damrod, if at all possible.

3. Scrap insertions that are not based on Tolkien - give Glorfindel his place again.

4. Re-cast Frodo

5. Show Barad-dur as the massive fortress it really was, and stop showing Sauron as a disembodied Eye atop a tower. Sauron had a black and hideous body, taller than a man's, but not gigantic.

BTW, Bilbo is not Yoda LOL - Yoda was about 900 when he died, but Bilbo was 51 in TH, 111 at the start of LOTR, and reached 131 by the time he went to the Undying Lands, where he would have seen plenty of mountains, just as he wanted to.

I loathe the character-assassination of Isildur, who by the time of the fall of Sauron had lost his brother and his father. That he was fatally unwise to do what he did, is not ruled out by the fact that it was humanly entirely understandable. That it was so understandable, deepens the tragedy of what happened later. BTW, the Ring came to Isildur in 3441 - not in 3434, as in FOTR. 3434 was when the siege of Barad-dur began.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 26, 2021)

Aukwrist said:


> The ideal film would be something more like the 1981 BBC radio dramatisation, which was absolutely first-rate.


I definitely agree -- though even that production suffered from time restraints.

Many people have criticised Frodo, but I thought Elijah Wood did a creditable job, considering what he was given to work with.

"Sauron the Evil Lighthouse" as he became known around here, is certainly a sore point -- as are the "Scrubbing Bubbles Deadmen".


And welcome to the forum, Awkwrist! Don't forget the New Members forum, if you'd like to introduce yourself "formally", and say something about your particular interests. 😊









New Members


Meet and greet the newest TTF members. -- [ One thread per new member only! ] --




www.thetolkienforum.com


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## Ciderwell (Aug 26, 2021)

1. The movie should've been in 3D. In addition to 3D glasses it would've been great to have real pipe-weed on sale. And of course candy-weed for the kids.

2. I wasn't too disappointed that Peter Jackson left out Tom Bombadil but I was absolutely horrified to see Frodo's _Flight to the Ford_ completely trashed.

Jackson should have had Frodo riding at full gallop with all the _jingle-jangling_ bells ringing to the sound of a Metallica song: "_Lord of the Rings..._" (_da capo, triple forte). _To which Arwen turns into a great shining light as Frodo hits the waters of the river - joined by the galloping frothing white horses (Gandalf's touch), all rushing down into the valley of the Elves and the Last Friendly Home.

For continuity maybe have Elrond greet Frodo with some pipe-weed, to which the Hobbit collapses in heap on the floor, out for the count!

3. Some farting would have been good. My favourite bit in Blazing Saddles was the campfire farting scene. I know Lord of the Rings wasn't a comedy but there were some comedic moments and maybe have Gimli light one of his farts, in the background - for the kids.

4. Let us see Sauron at the end. Maybe running off into the distance as Barad-dur comes crashing down. And then have the sun burst through the clouds with Frodo on a great white winged charger followed by a host of shining Valkyrie (to the sound of Metallica), bearing down on the old scoundrel.

5. And more pipe-weed on leaving the cinema.


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## Ealdwyn (Aug 27, 2021)

Ciderwell said:


> 1. The movie should've been in 3D. In addition to 3D glasses it would've been great to have real pipe-weed on sale. And of course candy-weed for the kids.


And full table service matching the hobbits meal for meal and drink for drink (not for the fainthearted!)


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## Olorgando (Aug 27, 2021)

Ealdwyn said:


> And full table service matching the hobbits meal for meal and drink for drink (not for the fainthearted!)


Since we're in the films section here:
there is this scene in the Prancing Pony where Merry lugs a largish mug of beer to the table, informing Pippin that it's a pint. Pipping then goggles "It comes in pints?!?"

_*bored yawn*_

For the last 46 years, minus exceptions totaling 14 years, I have lived in (northern) Bavaria. Known for beer festivals, the internationally best-known being the "Oktoberfest", which actually starts in September (the city of 115,000 inhabitants that I live in has a festival that is 55 years older that that "Munich copy"  ).
The standard unit in which beer is served goes by several names, all indicating the contents to be one liter (nominally ... 🤬 ) - that would be a quart.
And that beer has a bit more "torque" than the standard beers in Germany, which hover around 5% by volume or a bit over, that special festival beer usually topping 5.5%vol by the odd tenth. Something that newcomers to the US garrison in the city (and those of surrounding cities like Fürth, Henry Kissinger's birthplace, and the half-million city Nürnberg) during the Cold War period found out *means* something - mainly a throbbing head next morning ... 🥴


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## Sir Eowyn (Aug 27, 2021)

1. I'd have Merry die on the Pelennor Fields, not surviving his stabbing the Witch-king
2. Aragorn and Eowyn consummated, though he then has to think better of it
3. Rehaul that awful Dead Army, and by no means have them come all the way to Gondor
4. Have a properly magnificent farewell to Saruman
5. Prince Imrahil and the armies of Gondor, have the final siege feel like more than a group of guys in silly helmets waiting for doom doing nothing. This includes making Denethor intelligent, as he is in the books


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## Halasían (Oct 16, 2021)

Five huh... I'll limit it to the Lord of the Rings movies, and I'll limit it to the screenplay.
1. Arnor - Give back the whole reason Aragorn was not King of Gondor. Because he was of the line of the northern sister kingdom. The PJ Boyens script totally destroys the basis of the whole story with this one thing. It never answers why Aragorn was not king of Gondor and why the Kingdom of Gondor was ruled by the Stewards. Basically the impression was he 'couldn't handle' being king and ran off to chase elven tail in the north where, oddly, his mother was buried. It would have been a simple fix to adhere closer to the actual story.

2. Dunedain Rangers - This too could have been easily done when the Black Riders were riding into the Shire. Also later when they are making their way through the bush and swamp to the Weather Hills they could have met Halbarad instead of Arwen 'catching a ranger at unawares'.

3. The Sons of Elrond - They could easily have been at the Council of Elrond, and later when the Rangers were mustered to ride south, they would have gone with the Standard. Simple. They could have arrived at Helms Deep with an army of elves from Rivendell and Lorien along with Haldir.

4. Faramir - I mean, seriously? HirilElfwraith said it perfectly so I'll just quote them. _"Faramir my beloved. Cut out the scene where he does the exact opposite of his actions in the book, and instead show his honor and steadfastness by remarking he wouldn't take this thing if he found it by the side of the road, and then keeping his word once he finds out what it is. That's the biggest thing that bothers me."_

5. Army of the Dead - Keep them true to the book. Have their oath be fulfilled after taking the ships, and dispose of the whole luminescent green hoard of green ants swarming Minas Tirith. The way it was shown was the ships had Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas with just the green ants coming to the rescue.

And a few honorable mentions:
*Denethor*. Make him the honorable man who was worn down and broken by his use of the Palantir.
*Saruman*. Oh great searchlight of Mordor. PJ and team missed a perfect chance at doing some worthy CGI with Sauron.
*Aragorn and the Palantir of Orthnc*. Instead of Aragorn get electrocuted by the Palantir, have him take it and challenge Sauron.

Anyway, I could probably go to ten...


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## Elthir (Oct 16, 2021)

1) get rid of Jackson
2) get rid of Peter Jackson
3) get rid of Sir Peter Jackson
4) get rid of Sir Peter Robert Jackson
5) and the bicycle he rode in on

And I've just the cat to take 
care of that bike too!


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## Ealdwyn (Oct 16, 2021)

Halasían said:


> Anyway, I could probably go to ten...


Why stop at ten?


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## Þráinn Þórhallsson (Oct 16, 2021)

Halasían said:


> Five huh... I'll limit it to the Lord of the Rings movies, and I'll limit it to the screenplay.
> 1. Arnor - Give back the whole reason Aragorn was not King of Gondor. Because he was of the line of the northern sister kingdom. The PJ Boyens script totally destroys the basis of the whole story with this one thing. It never answers why Aragorn was not king of Gondor and why the Kingdom of Gondor was ruled by the Stewards. Basically the impression was he 'couldn't handle' being king and ran off to chase elven tail in the north where, oddly, his mother was buried. It would have been a simple fix to adhere closer to the actual story.
> 
> 2. Dunedain Rangers - This too could have been easily done when the Black Riders were riding into the Shire. Also later when they are making their way through the bush and swamp to the Weather Hills they could have met Halbarad instead of Arwen 'catching a ranger at unawares'.
> ...


Yeah, atleast the Hobbit sequels did not use searchlight Sauron when he appeared.


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## Halasían (Oct 16, 2021)

Ealdwyn said:


> Why stop at ten?


Two reasons ... because Þráinn Þórhallsson said "...only 5..." in the thread title, and I didn't feel like writing a Novella. I'd still be writing my original post


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## Goku da Silva (Oct 16, 2021)

I just need one: Erase The Hobbit trilogy.😥


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## Olorgando (Oct 17, 2021)

Goku da Silva said:


> I just need one: Erase The Hobbit trilogy.😥


I'm wondering: could imagining it to be a spin-off from G.R.R Martin's stuff (about which I am totally ignorant) help? 🤔


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 18, 2021)

1. Switch Arwen out, though I'm unsure for whom since it's narratively difficult for a film to introduce a character so briefly.
2. Make Galadriel less creepy.
3. Don't change the Ents decision.
4. Don't have the Elves at the battle of the Hornburg.
5. Don't have Faramir kidnap Frodo.


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## Copia (Aug 8, 2022)

5 things, this is a hard one!

1. Remove Tauriel, and everything about her, from The Hobbit.

2. Just make Faramir like Faramir in the books. It suits as well, and even better, in a movie adaption. They strayed so fare away from his character and it annoys me so much.

3. Drop alle callbacks to LOTR in The Hobbit. Meaning remove that stupid "dragon sickness" thing that Thorin had. Dwarfes are greedy for gold and treasures, thats enough.

4. Frodo never sent Sam away in the book, and him doing so in the movies is one of the worst deviations. He always trusted Sam(Except when Sam suggested he could carry The Ring, but thats very understandable. Frodo felt so bad after those two times as well).

5. Drop the whole of Dol Guldur stuff from the film. (This along with removing Tauriel would easily make it into two films).


Obviously so much more, but if these five things were made the movies would be so much better! At least to me.


Bonus: No army of the dead ghost army at Minas Tirith.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 8, 2022)

Copia said:


> 5 things, this is a hard one!
> 
> 1. Remove Tauriel, and everything about her, from The Hobbit.
> 
> ...


Unique changes.


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