# Guess what I got for my birthday!



## YayGollum (Jun 7, 2002)

*A YayGollum Theory*

Anyways, I just wanted to post a theory about Gollum.
Gollum was the epitome of hobbit strength. I figured it out! See, Smeagol killed Deagol because Sauron made him do it. He exerted his will through the Ring very powerfully on poor Smeagol. Sauron left him alone after that because he was biding his time and gathering his forces. 
Aha! The truth comes readily at three in the morning on your birthday! Okay, after the initial shock of killing Deagol (I still think he didn't. Remember, Gollum told Gandalf that story. He probably just knocked him out or something and he felt really bad and let his guilt team up with his imagination and run wild, but that's just my opinion.) Gollum only used the Ring for mischief, and when exiled, used it to get food. 
Now, after a long time of being fat and happy under a rock, the evil thief Bilbo Baggins comes and steals his house, clothes, money, and food (or his security blanket, or whatever you want to call the One Ring). Needless to say, Gollum is a little peeved. Wouldn't you be if you saw somebody running off with your house, clothes, money, and food? He has nothing better to do but to look for them. 
He finally catches up with them when he finds two hobbits (who only have troubles with the Ring because they know what it does) who catch him. They make him swear by the only thing that he cares about to help them (they don't tell him they want to destroy his security blanket, but he gathers that and can only wonder why). 
One of the hobbits is a little bit decent to him, so he warms up to him a little, hoping that he can talk some sense into him sometime to give back his security blanket (still doesn't know why they want to get rid of it). 
Gollum is innocently leading them to wherever they want to go when the other hobbit insults him. Now, he's not used to this. He was from a very well-to-do hobbit family and not too many people have talked to him that way. He's mad, so he gets a fried of his to catch them (Shelob was only going to use her sleeping poison on them. See? That's what she used on Frodo!). 
When that plan turns out bad, he follows them to Mount Doom and tries to get it back, but gets freaked out when the hobbit who used to be nice acts really weird. He knows that they're going to destroy his house, clothes, money, and food soon, so he finally decides to get physical and take it back by force. 
Yay Gollum! He won! Do you guys think that this is an accurate description of Gollum's situation? Did I put enough enter's in? I hardly ever do that.


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## Wonko The Sane (Jun 7, 2002)

Wow, Yay. With this I am inclined to agree.

Except that "Sauron made him do it"...that's like "The devil made me do it". I think it was just RingLust.


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## YayGollum (Jun 7, 2002)

Thanks for agreeing partly but, was not the Ring just an extention of Sauron? I always thought so. Whoops!


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## Wonko The Sane (Jun 7, 2002)

I actually thought about it after I posted and I'm inclined to agree.
The RingLust comes from Sauron's instilling in the ring a mind or a will of its own through which he can control and enslave the masses.

So in a way, or perhaps in exactly the way you meant, Sauron DID make Smeagol do it.


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## YayGollum (Jun 8, 2002)

Thank you so much. Yay me! I am right. Hmmm...maybe I shouldn't have named this thread what I did. But then, people would probably just ignore it because I made it anyway! oh well.


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## DGoeij (Jun 10, 2002)

Somehow the nasssty Bagginsss didn't turn Gollum into a gurgling rush of blood when he had the Ring on and was standing behind him, holding Sting into his hand. Sauron wasn't strong enough to get this 'miserable thief' into killing this wretched, stinking and overly impolite creature?  
So I guess Smeagol wasn't that much of a nice person before he obtained the Ring. After that, he's very much a pitiful creature. Of course he couldn't let go of the Ring. I don't think he could have ever been cured, even Sam actually couldn't, since he passed West too, in the end.

Cool present nonetheless.


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## YayGollum (Jun 10, 2002)

Bilbo didn't do anything because Sauron wasn't paying attention to the Ring just then. That's my theory and I'm sticking to it! oh well. Yeah, Yay for my present!


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## Wonko The Sane (Jun 10, 2002)

You say "oh well" a lot. Like you're too nice and you don't want to offend people by having different opinions...

Stop being so nice.

And yeah...I agree with Yay on this one.


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## YayGollum (Jun 10, 2002)

Stop being so nice? But then what would everyone think of me? Right now I'm YayGollum! Defender of the Little Guy! Friend to All! Why ruin all of that? Everyone loves me!  oh well. I also like to say Argh!, Ack!, Spoot!, and Neef!


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## Wonko The Sane (Jun 10, 2002)

I like to say spoot too.


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## YayGollum (Jun 10, 2002)

And then there's Woah!, *runs away*, just wondering, and just my opinion. Also, yep, I'm changing the title. Noone cares for the one I have now.


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## Gamil Zirak (Jun 11, 2002)

I see one flaw in your "theory". If Sauron wanted Gollum to have the ring, why didn't he make Gollum give it back to him right then? Why did Sauron torchure Gollum to find out everything he knew about the ring?


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## DGoeij (Jun 11, 2002)

Why did he let the little guy get away with it then? That's what I'd like to know.
Mayor malfunction in the decision generators?


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## YayGollum (Jun 11, 2002)

I never said Sauron wanted Gollum to have the Ring. He was just a convenient vessel to hold it while he was planning some big war thingy. Also, I didn't know Sauron tortured Gollum to find out everything he knew about the Ring. I thought he tortured him to find out what he knew about the dude who took it from him. Guess I've been wrong about that.


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## Wonko The Sane (Jun 11, 2002)

No Yay...you were right. He tortured him to find out about that nasty Bagginss creature.


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## DGoeij (Jun 12, 2002)

If Sauron was working through the Ring, he apparently lost contact when Biblo picked it up. Maybe Gollum forgot the spare batteries?


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## Anarchist (Jun 12, 2002)

YayGollum I like you for standing up on what you believe but I completely and totally disagree. 
First of all Gollum stole the ring with murder. Noone forced him to take the ring but his lust and jelousy. After all why didn't anyone kill Frodo or Bilbo as soon as they saw the ring? Only after a lot of days did Boromir attempt to take it, and that was for the sake of his land. Gollum commited murder as soon as he saw the ring, driven by pure lust and greed.

Second, Bilbo was a hobbit lost inside the mountain and Gollum was prepared to kill him. So he used all means to escape. That's why he put on the ring and kept it. After all, in the beginning he didn't know that what he was carrying belonged to Gollum.

Third, Gollum's life was spared twice. Even when Sam saw what Gollum had done he still let him live.

Fourth, Gollum completely betrayed the one who spared his life for the first time just to take back his so called "precious" and was planning to kill Shelob after he took the ring, kill his ally in betreyal.

OK I agree that if it wasn't for Gollum perhaps the was would end, but we are not allow to judge him only by his action but also by his couses. What he did was to get back his precious and wouldn't stop for anything.


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## Gamil Zirak (Jun 12, 2002)

I didn't know Gollum intended to kill Shelob after he got the ring. I thought he was just going to get it from the bones or from her poop and then be on his marry way.


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## YayGollum (Jun 12, 2002)

Thank you, Anarchist and Zirak dude. 
Here's my comebacks: After Sauron messed with Gollum's mind, he ignored the Ring ever afterwards, so as not to make it too suspicious while he was gathering his army. Ack! 
What's with the Bilbo arguement? What did I say about him? oh well. Gollum was only going to kill him because the stakes for the riddle game were that if Bilbo lost, Gollum would eat him and if Gollum lost, Bilbo would be led out. Bilbo cheated, so Gollum tried to eat him. Very fair. 
Now, what's with the counting of the times Gollum's life was spared? Did I talk about that? oh well. Bad memory, I guess. No, his life was spared more than twice. Aragorn could have killed him, the elves in Mirkwood could have killed him, and Sauron could have killed him. 
Also, I'm just gonna stick with my idea of Gollum only asking Shelob to put them to sleep. Why else would she have not killed him when she had the chance? oh well. Woah! Where'd you get the idea that he'd kill Shelob? I don't think he'd be that stupid!


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## Wonko The Sane (Jun 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by DGoeij _
> *If Sauron was working through the Ring, he apparently lost contact when Biblo picked it up. Maybe Gollum forgot the spare batteries? *



Bilbo wasn't as easily controlled. As I said in another thread the vein of RingLust, or PowerLust had to be in the person before Sauron could manipulate them.

Smeagol/Gollum had it...Boromir had it...Denethor had it...Bilbo didn't. And neither did Frodo.


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## Gamil Zirak (Jun 14, 2002)

Frodo was easily controlled by the ring. He hadn't had it for very long when it comanded him to put it on when he was attacked by the Nazgul. He also claimed it for his own at Mount Doom.


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## Wonko The Sane (Jun 14, 2002)

But he was able to resist it even as the crossed through Mordor...he grew weaker with every step...do you think someone with as much RingLust as Gollum had could've even crossed the border to Mordor with the ring in his possession?
I don't...I think Frodo was strong...but that the proximity of the Cracks of Doom, when the ring was in it's most powerful and commanding state called him to do what he did...
The closer he got to the Cracks of Doom the more power the ring had over him.


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## Anarchist (Jun 15, 2002)

YayGollum you said that Sauron messed up with Gollum's mind and then he just stoped so noone would find him out before he gathered his army. Yet you ignore that if Sauron got his ring back he wouldn't actually need any army since his powers would increase very much and also he would get control of the excisting rings of power, which now the ones who had them didn't try to hide. So I believe that what Gollum did, he did it because of his own character and his own personal choices, leaded of course by the power of lust the ring had.

Now I have to agree that Biblo actually stole the ring from Gollum. But he was actually the thief of a thief, since Gollum had stolen the ring from the beginning. Gollum wasn't an idiot but Bilbo cheated in the riddle game, but I think Gollum wouldn't keep his promise in the end and would finally eat Bilbo, no matter who would win the game.

Now about Gollum and Shelob. Forgive me but I don't remember where I read this, but I remember it clearly stated somewhere that Gollum, trying to escape from Mordor was captured by Shelob, who spared his life first because he was skinny and scong because he promised he to bring her back some nice food, different than hard orc meat. And so he did, he betrayed Frodo and Sam and gave them to Shelob so she could eat them. Now Shelob injected her sleep poison to Frodo. If you study insects a bit you will understand this method. She didn't want her victims to be killed so she would eat them alive (this would taste better) and so she put them to sleep to take them back to her lair and there eat them without any danger of being out in open. This is the hunting method of a lot of instects.

Gamil Zirak, I believe that Frodo resisted the lust of the ring for a long time, if you see how Gollum and Boromir soon gave in to temptation.


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## Gamil Zirak (Jun 15, 2002)

Ok. Where should I start.



> _Originally posted by Anarchist _
> *Yet you ignore that if Sauron got his ring back he wouldn't actually need any army since his powers would increase very much and also he would get control of the excisting rings of power, which now the ones who had them didn't try to hide.*


Sauron still needed an army. He can't just point his finger at you and go boo and you die. He still has to defeat his enemies. His strength would increase with the ring, but he would still have to fight the men of Gondor and Rohan, the dwarves of the Lonely Mountains, and the Elves. Also, Sauron already had the rings of power that he could control (the nine for the men and the remaining dwarven rings). The three elven rings were not created by or under the influence of Sauron.



> _Originally posted by Anarchist _
> *Now I have to agree that Biblo actually stole the ring from Gollum. .... Gollum wasn't an idiot but Bilbo cheated in the riddle game, but I think Gollum wouldn't keep his promise in the end and would finally eat Bilbo, no matter who would win the game.*


How did Bilbo steal the ring? He fell in the Misty Mountains and landed on it. Regardless of the legality of Bilbo's final question, he already had the ring in his posession. He found it on the ground. He didn't take it from Gollum.



> _Originally posted by Anarchist _
> *Gamil Zirak, I believe that Frodo resisted the lust of the ring for a long time, if you see how Gollum and Boromir soon gave in to temptation. *


I understand that Frodo resisted the "lust" of the ring for a long time. I was just making a point. Gollum and Boromir both gave into their own "lust" for the ring. They ring did not make them take it anymore than you picking up a $20 bill off the ground.


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## YayGollum (Jun 15, 2002)

Woah! Ack! Gamil Zirak is saying what I would! oh well. I would also like to say that Gollum wouldn't have broken his promise (he kept his promise in LOTR) because it says that he wasn't even hungry until Bilbo got him mad by cheating. Yeah, you're right about the Shelob thing, but I like my theory better.


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## Anarchist (Jun 16, 2002)

Gamil Zirak, yes I partially agree with what you say, but I believe that if Sauron knew that his ring was found again he would immidiately send for someone to bring it back to him, he wouldn't just wait until he gathered his army. I mean finding his ring again would make everything easier for him. I just said what I said to try and prove YayGollum wrong about this. Of course anyone has the right to believe what he wants (even if of course you are wrong and I am right ).

Now, about the rings of power, I am sure about this that if he gained control of the ring he would rule the three rings of the elves too. Remember that after the destruction of the ring, the elves faded away because their rings lost their powers amongst other reasons.

Bilbo did steal the ring but he didn't know it. I believe that Gollum put him in a dead end (indeed dead ), telling him that either he won the riddle game or he would end up eaten. A bit unfair right?

Gamil, can you please explani what you mean on the lust issue? You are not completely clear.

YayGollum, I respect your decision to interpret the book anyway you want to though (please forgive me for saying this) you theory is a bit naive. I mean Shelob wouldn't help anybody without having something to gain. She was Ungoliad's daughter, not as hungry as her mother but still always wanting to fill her rotten stomach.


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## YayGollum (Jun 16, 2002)

Yay for me being able to believe what I want even if I am wrong!  Wait a minute... oh well.  Sure, he might get control of the elves' Rings, but who cares? He lost last time with the Ring, so he was being more careful this time. I'm thinking that Sauron was building up a huge army and just keeping the Ring with Gollum deep in the Misty Mountains. It was only by Bilbo's uncanny luck that it was found. Okay? Also, how was the deal unfair? It was either Bilbo gets led out or Gollum gets a free meal. Gollum would be saving Bilbo's life if Bilbo won. Very fair. Yay for me being naive!  Boo Shelob! oh well.


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## Anarchist (Jun 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by YayGollum _
> *Yay for me being able to believe what I want even if I am wrong!  Wait a minute... oh well.  *



Well you said it yourself.

Oh and the last tim Sauron had the ring the elves had hidden the three. Yes he was cautious but he wasn't that stupid not taking the one immidiately.


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## YayGollum (Jun 17, 2002)

Argh! I was kidding! oh well. Wouldn't it be a smart thing for Sauron to pretend he didn't know where the Ring was while he gathered his army? He was being super careful! There was no way for him to win some crazy war without a big army. sorry.


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## Bilbo Baggins57 (Jun 18, 2002)

> BIlbo did steal the ring but he didn't know it



Bilbo didn't even realize it belonged 2 gollum until later when he was being chased by him. He just found the ring; it's not like he directly took it from gollum by force, like Smeagol did from Deagol. Also Yay, I know I've mentioned this on another thread, but I don't think gollum was meant 2 have the ring. U said Bilbo messed up Sauron's plan when he found it. If gollum was meant 2 have it, it wouldn't have been laying there lost in the Misty Mountains waiting 4 Bilbo 2 find it. The ring had a mind of it's own, although it was controlled by Sauron. Bilbo's not a thief; he's a hero! When he was invisible I'm sure he could've killed gollum if he wanted 2, but he didn't. That shows what a great character he is.


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## Anarchist (Jun 18, 2002)

No YayGollum, no no no no!!! It would be stupid of Sauron to let crazy old Gollum to have the ring for so much time just to keep it "safe". After all, with Gollum, the ring was far from safe. Think how he would risk having Gollum keeping his ring under the mountains whil around him thousands of trolls roamed. It would be extremely easy for him to take his ring back and hold it without using it until he gathered his armies. Noone would notice, right? He just didn't know where it was. I think you scenario is weak, though it is a very creative one. Yay YayGollum!!


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## Gamil Zirak (Jun 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Anarchist _
> *Gamil, can you please explani what you mean on the lust issue? You are not completely clear.*


The lust for the ring is to posses it. Once you posses the ring it starts to influence control over you. Frodo never lusted for the ring. Boromir, Gollum, and Saruman all lusted for the ring.

On the three elven rings, if Sauron could control them with the one ring, then why didn't he when he had the rings in the first place. When I first read LoTR I thought they were connected to the one ring in some manner; however, after reading the Sil I discovered otherwise. Sauron had not hand or part in the making of the three elvin rings. Although the elves had grown weary of middle earth, they could have staid and still used their rings.


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## YayGollum (Jun 18, 2002)

Okay, ummm...Argh! The Ring was super safe with Gollum for hundreds of years! Would the Ring have been any more safe with Sauron? No. If he had the Ring, he'd use it. The book says that even he couldn't resist the Ring. Aha! Also, Zirak person! Frodo did lust for the Ring! Don't you remember when he was going crazy when Sam didn't give it back right away?


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## Gamil Zirak (Jun 18, 2002)

I stand corected. You are right Yay. I was only thinking about how everyone first got the ring. I completely forgot about when Sam had it momentarily.


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## YayGollum (Jun 19, 2002)

Of course I'm right. Hello? Where is everybody? Should I really get some Mod to change the title for me or should I just be happy with what I did?


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## Anarchist (Jun 19, 2002)

Gamil, I am not sure but I think that he did have control over the three rings of the elves. When the first war against Sauron happened, the elves had hidden the three rings very well so he didn't find them. After the destruction of the one, the three faded away (I am not completely sure about that but if you wish to prove me wrong please use a quote if you can) so the elves left. I remember the council of Elrond being afraid of what would happen to the elves after the destruction of the one.

YayGollum, I think it has been proved that the ring wasn't safe with Gollum after all, since a little and unimportant hobbit stole it from him. I believe that in the end, if Bilbo didn't show up, some troll would find Gollum and take his head together with the ring.


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## YayGollum (Jun 20, 2002)

Ack! The Ring was very safe with Gollum! Why do you think some troll would get Gollum sometime? Trolls didn't even live there! Anyways, nothing living in there had gotten him for a long time. Sauron wasn't afraid of anything getting it. He just never thought of some super stinky, super lucky and nasssty hobbit thief showing up. Got it?


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## Anarchist (Jun 21, 2002)

Sauron was quit weak when the ring was found 
(or he wasn't there at all, I don't remember). How can you believe that he had the power to control Gollum with his ring, since he didn't know where it was even when Sam put it on just outside Mordor? Sauron didn't just wake up some day and think "oh well let's find a victim to keep my ring". It was beyond his powers. Yet you still claim that he was strong enough to have Gollum keep it safe in the depths of a mountain, the moment he was almost in full power and still couldn't find where it was. No, you don't convince me, I still believe that you are completely wrong. Shall I unseath my sword?


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## YayGollum (Jun 21, 2002)

Why do you think that Sauron was weak when the Ring was found? He was just hiding out. Hadn't it been a long time after he got defeated? I hope I don't have my timeline wrong. Anyways, Sauron wasn't controlling Gollum the whole time he was in the Misty Mountains! The only time Sauron messed with him was when he first got the Ring. The rest of the time, he was concentrating on other stuffs. The only reason he didn't notice the Ring when it was close by was because he was still concentrating on other stuffs. He was counting on the Nazgul to get his Ring. No swords! *runs away*


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## Anarchist (Jun 22, 2002)

Yes, but there was a time when all his thoughts were concentrated on the ring. He was looking for it with all his powers (it is mentioned a lot of times in the LOTR). But still he wasn't powerful enough to locate it eccept in certain places. So how could he use any power on Gollum, the moment he couldn't know where the ring was, even when he had gathered all his army and put all his thought on it? I still insinst that what Gollum did was because of his character just influenced by the lust for the ring. *puts his sword away and takes his longbow*


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## YayGollum (Jun 22, 2002)

Argh! I was hoping you wouldn't remember that!  I mean...ummm...give me a quote! Are the only references to Sauron looking for it given by other people? Because if so, I would argue that they don't know what they're talking about and the Nazgul were looking for it while Sauron was still preparing.  *hides behind his shield*


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## Anarchist (Jun 23, 2002)

Here's a quote from the chapter "The breaking of the fellowship". It is the part where Frodo runs away from Boromir and put the ring on, sitting on the chair in Amon Hen:



> And suddnly he flt the Eye. There was an eye in the Dark Tower that did not sleep. He knew that it had become aware of his gaze. A fierce eager will wa there. It leaped towards him; almost like a finger he felt it, searching for him. Very soon it would nail him down, know just exactly where he was...



Yes Sauron was endlessly looking for the ring and the one who had it. He was making other things in the meanwhile, like preparing his invading troops, but he wanted the ring instantly to finish all this faster. And even though he was looking for the ring with all his power, yet he couldn't find it. And think that he was more powerful than in "The Hobbit". How could he use the ring on Gollum while he hadn'teven put it on (when he killed Deagol to take it, or even when he had it on, when he couldn't find Frodo while he had the ring on and was sitting on Amon Hen, where he could find him more easily.
Unfortunately for you it seems that I remembered that. 
*casts a lightning spell*


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## YayGollum (Jun 23, 2002)

Sauron suddenly noticed that Frodo put the Ring on. He wasn't paying attention at the time and when he put it on, he could tell. When Frodo took it off again, Sauron forgot about it and just let his Nazgul take care of it. I'm guessing that he was reeeally busy. Sauron was superly paying much attention to the Ring at the time of Deagol's swim. Waiting for someone to get it so he could mess with them and get them to keep it somewhere safe for a while. How was that? Good enough? *turns into a bear and starts running*


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## Wonko The Sane (Jun 24, 2002)

*fish*


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## Anarchist (Jun 25, 2002)

Errrrrm. I think we are not getting anywhere over here. I think this discussion is getting quite unserious (not that it was THAT serious from the beginning). If you keep on answering without taking it serious I will get really angry!! 
*gets on his horse and rides like the wind to YayGollum's direction, wielding his blood-red battle axe*


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## YayGollum (Jun 25, 2002)

Ack! You're the one who's turning this into an RPG, not me! I was being serious! What did I say that didn't seem serious?


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## Wonko The Sane (Jun 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Anarchist _
> *Errrrrm. I think we are not getting anywhere over here. I think this discussion is getting quite unserious (not that it was THAT serious from the beginning). If you keep on answering without taking it serious I will get really angry!!
> *gets on his horse and rides like the wind to YayGollum's direction, wielding his blood-red battle axe*
> *



I apologize...


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## YayGollum (Jun 25, 2002)

Oh. I thought it was me. Who was it, scary evil Anarchist dude? (even though you were the one to start the RPG thing)


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## Wonko The Sane (Jun 25, 2002)

What RPG thing?


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## YayGollum (Jun 25, 2002)

I just meant how he started sticking actions in with his stinky arguements.


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## Wonko The Sane (Jun 25, 2002)

We can't do actions?

*stands on her head and eats a pickle*


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## YayGollum (Jun 25, 2002)

There's no rule that says we can't. Ack! I was just saying that when the scary evil Anarchist did it, he was making it more like an RPG than a discussion and then he goes and complains about it. Crazy! oh well.


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## Wonko The Sane (Jun 25, 2002)

Aaah, you were calling him on his hypocrisy.

Sorry...I missed that. But I get it now...and come to think of it...*stands upright and throws away her pickle* it is a bit hypocritical Anarchist...


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## Anarchist (Jun 27, 2002)

Wonko I was not refering to you bing unserious. I was refering to YayGollum, who keeps giving his unserious arguments and that doesn't take us anywhere. As for the rpg thing, the things I write don't interfere to the discussion (I think you started this also and I continued). Yours, YayGollum on the other hand do. You wanted me to give you a quote and I did. It is mentioned in the whole book that Sauron was continously looking for the ring but you just don't admit it because it will cancel all your arguments. Now I don't want to look offencive in any way but I was insulted being called hypocritic.


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## Wonko The Sane (Jun 27, 2002)

*Not that anyone asked...*

But it seems to me that Yay doesn't ignore the fact that Sauron was looking for the ring. He was, just at some times he was looking for it actively and at others he was biding his time and building his army in order to better search for it later. I don't think he spent his every moment searching for the ring...his attention was not always on it, most of the time he didn't even know where it was.
I think Yay is just trying to say that even though Sauron's main goal was finding the ring and enslaving the whole of ME, he still didn't have complete control and he still let his attentions and his search lax at times.


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## YayGollum (Jun 27, 2002)

The wonko person said what I was trying to. Ack! I was trying to be serious! What did I do that you thought wasn't serious? Just the fact that I said that Sauron wasn't always being super vigilant? I'm just being realistic. so sorry. Also, Ack! You started the RPG stuff, I just did it because I didn't know that it would contribute to unseriousness.


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## Anarchist (Jun 28, 2002)

All right, I apologise for the unserious thing. I just used the wrong word to describe how YayGollum faces the whole issue. It's just that your arguments don't seem to stand but yet you insist. I sometimes wonder if you believe what you are saying. Do you really believe that Sauron would have the chance to get the ring from the beginning and he wouldn't grab it? You say that he didn't want to use the ring so that noone would find out who he was. Yes but he was identified after he was driven out of Mirkwood and went to Mordor to gather his armies. I insist that you are wrong and your theory about Gollum doesn't stand, that all he did was because of his character and because of the lust for the ring. After all, if it was that easy for Sauron to locate the ring and use it from far away, how comes he didn't notice it after Sam put it on just outside Mordor? Or why did he wait for Frodo to go to Mount Doom, the only place where it could be destroyed? I insist that Sauron didn't have any control on the ring while it was so far away from him. You say he couldn't resist it's lust. Then why didn't he sent for the ring as soon as he noticed Deagol finding it? Gollum was evil from the beginning. If he wasn't thrown out of his village he wouldn't go in the depths of a mountain where the ring would be "safe". Don't try to show Gollum as the victim here. Perhaps he was a little bit of victim but his evil character controled most of his actions together with the ring.

As the rpg thing, some humour doesn't hurt the discussion while it doesn't interfere.


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## YayGollum (Jun 28, 2002)

I believe every bit of what I say. I'm just trying to make everyone else see the light.  So what if Sauron was identified when he left Mirkwood? By that time, Bilbo had the Ring and he didn't know where it was anymore. You are correct that all Gollum did was because of his lust for the Ring. But not poor Smeagol. Ack! I say again, Sauron was busy! Try to grasp this: Gollum was influenced by Sauron and the Ring because Sauron had been waiting for anybody to come along so he could get them to watch it for him. You'll notice that in The Hobbit, Bilbo isn't influenced at all. Sauron was busy. Frodo was only influenced by the Ring and, of course, fear all the time. Sam was just like Bilbo in that he just used the Ring to be invisible, he didn't know very much about it's power or anything (and Sauron was busy). Ack! The book says that Sauron was surprised. He didn't just wait for Frodo to show up at Mount Doom. Ack! Gollum went underground because the Ring made him hate the light, plus he always was interested in that sort of thing. Yes, Gollum was the victim. Was there anyone more pitiful?  

Don't even worry about the RPG thing.


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## Anarchist (Jun 29, 2002)

Well it seems that you and I failed to convince ach other that our opinion is the correct one. 'Cause I believe that if there was for instant Bilbo who found the ring first he wouldn't act the way Gollum did. I insist that Sauron had nothing to do with Gollum killing Deagol (after all, why should Sauron choose Smeagol and not let Deagol carry the ring?), 'cause he didn't have at any time any control on the ring. No matter how busy Sauron was, it would be extremely useful for him to get his ring back and then easily crush his enemies. After setting up his army, why didn't he look for Frodo and make him bring his ring back, if you insist that he could have control on it? Don't insist on the busy thing, Sauron never stopped thinking about the ring, because it would totally ensure his victory. Think how much Gollum lusted for the ring, how his actions were aimed on getting the ring back, multiply them by a million or more and then you will have Sauron's lust for the ring. Yes, Sauron would get it back at once if he knew where it was in the first place. No, Gollum wasn't completely the victim, but yes, he was a bit pitiful.
*gives his hand to YayGollum*


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## YayGollum (Jun 29, 2002)

Well, at least you feel a little sorry for him. Ack! Do you really think that Gollum would just kill somebody for something shiny? No. He was already from a well to do family. It was his birthday. He just got a bunch of nice stuff. Why would he just go crazy? No, he wouldn't, unless Sauron was messing with him. Sauron knew where the Ring was. He was always waiting for anybody to show up and get it. He chose Gollum because he was younger and stupider. He wasn't able to mess with Frodo because he didn't know where the Ring was at the time. He sent the Nazgul to get it for him. If he wasn't so busy, what were the Nazgul for then? It was proved before that the power of the Ring wasn't enough to win a war. He was trying his best to get a bigger army. Yeah, Sauron had a lot of lust for the Ring (not sure if it was more than Gollum's), but he was also smart. 
*receives a severed hand and doesn't know what to do with it*


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## Anarchist (Jun 30, 2002)

Now you could trick someone with your arguments but not me. If you gave some nice presents to a serial killer, would that stop him from commiting murders? Or if you gave a rich man a million dollars, would that stop him from doing anything to get more money? It's about inner feelings and greed. Gollum was greedy and that destroyed him. I despise him because he continously betrayed Frodo and that "nasty" Sam.
You say Sauron didn't know where Frodo was. Then how the heck did he know where his ring was after so many years it was lost and he was destroyed? i still insist that Sauron couldn't locate the ring whenever he was and didn't have any power on it if he wasn't wearing it.
Perhaps the ring wasn't enough to win the war but it would surely help him quite a lot in gathering his army and attacking his enemies. His power would increase a lot with the ring on so noone could stop him. 
About the Nazgul thing, do you really thing Sauron would risk getting out of Mordor and going to get the ring on his own? No evil lord has ever acted that way, neither in fantasy nor in real life. These guys always put other to do their job. He woudl send the Nazgul no matter how busy he was. After all, they were under his control so he wasn't afraid of being betrayed.
*gives his foot to YayGollum*


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## YayGollum (Jul 1, 2002)

Aha! You're trying to make me fall asleep to win with all these long posts! It won't work! Glad to know you think I could trick somebody. I'm not so sure.  Answers to your questions: probably not, but he might not kill you.  probably not, but who cares? Yay for him being such a hard worker!  Woah! Why do you think poor Smeagol was greedy? Tolkien never says very much about him. Just that he was from a powerful family (among Stoor hobbits), that he liked to check things out underground, and that he was the greatest hobbit who ever lived.  Well, I feel sorry for him because he continuously deserves everyone's pity everywhere in the books. Sauron knew that the Ring was at the bottom of the river because he knew that Isildur got killed, fell into the river, and the Ring slipped off (the body was found). I agree that he couldn't locate the Ring whereever he was. That's why he couldn't get Frodo. But no, Sauron did have power over the Ring whereever it was. His influence through the Ring is used all over the place in the books. Now, wait just a minute! If Sauron had the Ring, he wouldn't have been able to resist using it to try and take over the world. He kept it in a safe place (with Gollum) until he was really really ready. Got it? If he just grabbed the Ring in the first place, he would have been defeated even faster than the last time. No, I don't think Sauron would go and try to look for the Ring himself. I forgot why I brought up the Nazgul in the first place. Too tired to go back and look.  
*has no idea why he's recieving body parts* Should I start putting enters in that? ^


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## Anarchist (Jul 2, 2002)

Oh no, he didn't have any power over it. Some of his power was in it and he needed it to be complete. As soon as he got it, he would put it on but still he would follow the same method. Remember when Gandalf (or was it Denethor?) said that he would never go into battle unless it was completely necessary. He would only go to Minas Tirith to laugh over the defeated. The ring would only change his power not his actions completely. So I made you admit that he couldn't locate it wherever it was. So how could he know that it was safe with Gollum? How could he know that Gollum didn't loose it again or was using it outdoors and ended up killed by a dangerous creature? Why don't you just admit that Sauron desparately needed the ring? Last time he was only defeated because his enemies created an alliance, the strongest in ME ever. And in spite of that, that alliance would be defeated if Sauron wasn't careless and Isildir didn't find the chance to cut his ring off. 



> Now, wait just a minute! If Sauron had the Ring, he wouldn't have been able to resist using it to try and take over the world. He kep tit in a safe place (with Gollum) until he was really really ready.



Err, I think Sauron was trying to do that even without having the ring on! But yes, I get what you mean. But remember that, unlike other characters, Sauron wouldn't act carelessly having the ring on. He would put it on and use it for his own purpose. You are underestimating the power of the ring. Galadriel said that wearing the ring would give her great powers and would make her the most powerful queen in ME. Gandalf sai that putting it on would give him powers beyond his dreams and he would become a dark lord himself. The ring gave a person great powers. Imagine how powerful Sauron would become with the ring on. If he grabbed the ring sooner he would win even sooner.
P.S. it is not my purpose to write big posts. If you can't take it just surrender. 

*gives YayGollum an anatomy book*


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## YayGollum (Jul 2, 2002)

Ack! Why do you think that Sauron has no power over the Ring when it's not on his finger? Just because he couldn't tell where it was all the time? oh please. He still did stuff with it without knowing where it was. oh well. I will readily admit that Sauron couldn't locate the Ring whereever it was. Who cares about that? He knew that it was safe with Gollum because of what he did when Gollum first got the Ring. He exerted his will through the Ring, got Gollum hooked on it, and sure, he assumed that nothing would happen to it. Sauron knew that the power of the Ring would make Gollum want to protect it ummm...a lot. Yes, I admit that Sauron desperately needed the Ring. That doesn't make him stupid, though. If he had it, he'd wear it, the elves would find out, and they'd go beat him up again. I'm underestimating the power of the Ring? No. You're the one who says Sauron can't do anything with it unless it's on his finger. You're the one who thinks that if he had the Ring, he wouldn't be able to resist putting it on. Ack! Very untrue. oh well. I will never surrender! Nor will I accept books of anatomy from a stranger.


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## Anarchist (Jul 8, 2002)

You still insist that Sauron had power over the ring even when it wasn't on his finger. That is totally and completely wrong. Just let me explain and then retreat defeated. Sauron had gathered his forces and started the attack on Minas Tirith together with other places. You agreed that on that time the ring would be very useful to him. Also it is totally clear that the elves knew on that time that he was Sauron and it is even more clear that they could never beat him when he was so powerful unless they destroyed the ring. If he had power on the ring the why the heck didn't he just make Frodo take it to him? It would be completely simple and would make his victory even easier. Noone would stand before his mighty army and he would be more able to add some more power having the ring on.



> You're the one who thinks that if he had the Ring, he wouldn't be able to resist putting it on.



When did I ever say that? I never did but even if this would be true it wouldn't harm him a bit. How the heck would the elves locate him if he had the ring on and how would they ever be able to stop him? At that time the elves had lost most of their power and they didn't even participate in the war. If it wasn't for Frodo and Sam and the men of Minas Tirith who drew Sauron's attention, the elves would be destroyed by the armies of Sauron. If he had the ring in the time Gollum found it out, perhaps Sauron would not be that powerful and perhaps he would be beaten up. But after a while he got stronger and it would be useful to him and woulnd't be dangerous to put it on.

Sauron didn't have any power on the ring but the ring had some power over the people who put it on or carried it or even saw it. This power, however powerful the ring was wasn't enough to make someone do what Gollum did (it has been proved a lot of times). Only if the character of the on who saw it was already "disturbed", evil and cunning would he do those things.


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## YayGollum (Jul 8, 2002)

I still insist that Sauron had power over the Ring because I just can't see why some hobbit would just happen to see something shiny and kill somebody for it for no good reason. It has been proved that hobbitses have the most resistance to the Ring's influence, right? Right. Gandalf knew that. Then it makes no sense for a hobbit to be influenced that much unless Sauron had something to do with it. Sure, some hobbits are naturally nasssty, but I have difficulty believing that one would just kill somebody for something shiny! Ack! What's wrong with me? oh well. Argh! I thought I said that Sauron could only exert his influence on poor Smeagol because he knew where the Ring was. Whoops! Well, I did. Sauron couldn't mess with Frodo because he didn't know where his Ring was. Got it? Even if he did see it pop up every now and then, it would be harder to mess with them. Why? Ummm...because he was caught by surprise, I won't say he was busy, these particular hobbitses were older and smarter than poor Smeagol was back then. oh well. Okay, if Sauron put on the Ring again (which he wouldn't be able to help if he ever got it back), the elves would know the same way they knew the first time. They'd feel his influence in their own stinky Rings, I guess. They'd think, oh, great, he's got it. We're all gonna die. Then they'd organize another stinky alliance thingy and kill him again. I'm guessing the stinky elveses got smart and only decided to help out again if Sauron got his Ring back. Woah! If he got the Ring back when Smeagol did, he would be killed for sure! He didn't have a super great army then. The elves would show up and beat him easily, and since there wouldn't be any stinky Isildur person around, they'd probably get rid of it. Who knows? But it would obviously be better for the elves if he got the Ring then. Sauron knew that, so he gave it to poor Smeagol. Tell me again where it's proved that people aren't influenced by the Ring enough to kill people. I missed it. Yikes! That last statement was scary! I thought that the Ring would corrupt anybody with time!


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## Anarchist (Jul 27, 2002)

Hello frind m back!
You are wrong to say that Sauron had influence on the ring. It's the ring that had any influence on anyon that saw it. I Sauron got the ring he would be able to rule the three elven rings and destroy the elves. The last time the three were hidden so he couldn't find them and rule them. The elves knew this time how dangerous Sauron was, it wasn't necessary to put on the ring.


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## YayGollum (Jul 27, 2002)

Yikes! I was thinking that you gave up and I won! oh well.  Anyways, where's your evidence that Sauron had no power over the Ring? That's just craziness. Sauron's power was in the Ring. He could use the Ring. Got it? Yes, the Ring did have some powers of its own, but why would you not think that Sauron could use it from afar? Yes, the three stinky elf rings were hidden from him. Some book says that Sauron put the One Ring on and the three elf dudes with the rings could feel his presence somehow and quickly took their rings off. If Sauron ever got his ring back, they'd just do the same thing. 

The elves knew this time how dangerous Sauron was, it wasn't necessary to put on the ring

Ummm...what do you mean by that?


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## Anarchist (Jul 28, 2002)

I mean that the elves didn't need Sauron to put on the ring to understand how dangerous he was. They already knew it but still they didn't really do much, perhaps because they couldn't.
If Sauron had powers over the ring then why didn't he command Frodo to take it to him? Your theory is totally crazy and ou can't support it. 
My absence is not because I quit but because I serve in the army right now. So I'll see you a lot later.


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## Gamil Zirak (Jul 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Anarchist _
> *My absence is not because I quit but because I serve in the army right now. So I'll see you a lot later. *


Interesting ... You're in the military, but you have a username of Anarchist.

Anyway back on topic, Sauron had power in the ring. He couldn't control the person wearing the ring though. The ring could make people put it on or just slip on your finger when your hand is in your pocket. It couldn't make you take it somewhere. It had to do that on its own (i.e. falling of of Gollum's finger).


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## Anarchist (Aug 3, 2002)

Gamil, my username doesn't have a lot to do with my believes. It's just a nickname. As for the army thing, in my country we have to serve in the army.

It seems that you agree that Sauron didn't have any power on the ring from a long distance, so this make two of us YayGollum.


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## Lantarion (Aug 3, 2002)

Perhaps you could sort of twist your name into 'Anarcrist', then it would mean 'sun-cleaver'!


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## YayGollum (Aug 3, 2002)

Ack! I was hoping that we'd get back into the really good arguements, but no, you're still stuck on the evil idea that Sauron had no power over the Ring. Didn't we already argue about that? When people had the Ring and Sauron didn't mess with them as bad as he did with Smeagol, the dude must not have been able to do it for some reason. Who knows why? I don't. I just know that he could mess with you. Plenty of examples. Got it? Do I have to spout them out again?


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## Galadhwen (Aug 5, 2002)

Er... just changing subject slightly, why didn't Smeagol use Ring to become "Thain" of Stoors?


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## Gamil Zirak (Aug 5, 2002)

Because he used the ring to sneak up on people and find out things and take an egg every now and then. That's why he was exiled.


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## Calimehtar (Aug 6, 2002)

*My Thoughts...*

1) You say - "Smeagol/Gollum" only wanted Shelob to put Frodo to sleep so Gollum could get the Ring.

A) I say - "Smeagol/Gollum" made a deal with Shelob that he would bring some food for her (HOBBITS!) if he could get the Ring from them. **Shelob ALWAYS put her victims to sleep before she kills them. It says it in the book when an orc gets wrapped up and poisoned (to sleep).** 

The point that she doesn't kill them, just knocked him out for a few hours, doesn't convince me Gollum was wanting to get the ring back without killing Frodo and Sam. This is just my thoughts... please reply if you know something I don't (about this topic).


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## Galadhwen (Aug 6, 2002)

Yea,I know Gamil, but doesn't Galadriel say to Frodo something bout bein able 2 use Ring to manipulate minds? Am sure somewhere talks bout when Frodo uses Ring to tame Smeagol he uses the Ring's power not Ring lust. If so couldn't Smeagol do the same to the Stoors, or wasn't he bright enough?


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## Gamil Zirak (Aug 6, 2002)

Frodo used the ring to "tame" Smeagol only because Smeagol desired it. Smeagol couldn't have used it on the Stores because they didn't know what it was or that he even had a "magical" ring. The ring can be used to corrupt others, but I don't recal Galadriel mentioning that. I'll try and look it up and find out though.


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## YayGollum (Aug 6, 2002)

Huh. I thought that neither Frodo nor Smeagol were able to use the Ring that way because they weren't super powerful like Sauron. oh well. 

To the scary BilbosBane person ---> the book never says that Shelob ALWAYS put her food to sleep when she caught it. There were just two orcs talking about how they found one of their own still alive one time. This doesn't mean that she ALWAYS did it! oh well. It was just a thought.


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## Calimehtar (Aug 6, 2002)

*k*

OK, like I said, that's just my thoughts... "Scary BilbosBane"????


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## Dwarf Lord (Aug 7, 2002)

To my own stupidity I read your six page argument. five of witch were arguing about weather sauron had power over the ring. Well I say this Yaygollum: if it says that even sauron couldn't resist the rings temptation then he wouldn't be able to just say i think i'll put it in safe keeping with this wrectched and intrustworthy creature. If he couldn't resist it then he would have had it brought to him. it's like keeping a seven year crackhead from smoking crack for a week and then letting him have some. do you think he's going to say i better keep this safe so i have it when i really need it.I also believe that when gandalf is telling frodo about the history of the ring he says that sauron didn't know where it was when it fell from isildur's finger.







> "But the ring was lost. It fell into the great river, Anduin, and vanished. For isildur was marching nirth along the east banks of the river, and near the Gladden fiekds he was waykaid by the orcs of the mountains, and almost all his folk were slain. He leaped into the waters, but the ring slipped from his finger as he swam, and then the orcs saw him and killed him with arrows," Gandalf paused. " And there on the dark pools amid the gladden fields," he said, " The ring passed out of knowledge and legend; and even so much of it's history is known now only to a few, and the council of the wise could discover no more. But at last i can carry on the story,i think.





> " So he journeyed by night into the highlands, and he found a little cave out of which the dark stream ran; and he wormed his way like a maggot into the heart of the hills, and vanished out if all knowledge. the ring went into the shadows with him, and even the maker, when his had begun to grow again, could learn nothing of it."



So you see it was either the ring or smeagols jealousy that drove him to kill deagol.god that took a while to type. 



DWARF LORD


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## YayGollum (Aug 7, 2002)

To the scary BilbosBane person ---> sorry. I call everybody scary. Whoops!

To the superly and actually scary Dwarf_Lord dude ---> Yikes! sorry this six page thing was too stupid. I like it, though. I would say that Sauron let Gollum keep the Ring for so long because it's power is magnified when you're close to it. Sure, that Saruman dude went pretty crazy, but that's just him. I think that Sauron could have figured out the vicinity of where the Ring got lost. He just paid attention to that vicinity, and when somebody showed up, he caught them. Like the scary BilbosBane person, that's just my thoughts.  sorry about that. sorry what you wrote took so long. But then, I don't even get why you put that down. The only thing that looked relevant was the part where you said something about Gollum hiding somewhere that Sauron didn't even know about. I never said that Sauron knew where the Ring was the entire time. I just said that he knew where it was after Isildur got killed and waited. Whoops!


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## Dwarf Lord (Aug 7, 2002)

Sorry if i came off as scary, but the reason why I chose those two qoutes was because at the end of each they say that they fell out of all knowledge. I just don't think sauron could have known where it actually was.



DWARF LORD


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## YayGollum (Aug 12, 2002)

Sure, maybe not the exact location, but probably the general area. He had plenty of minions. I'm sure most of them got killed at the time, but not all of them were that stupid. oh well. Only speculation. What else can I go on?


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## Dwarf Lord (Aug 12, 2002)

yeah but the "minions" proably didn't know who the guy was when they shot isildur in the water. 



DWARF LORD


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## Gamil Zirak (Aug 12, 2002)

The "minions" did know who he was. They were sent there to kill Isildur and his companions. I'm sure they didn't have all the details about getting the ring and such. They were probably told to kill everyone and bring back everything in their pockets (or something like that).


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## Dwarf Lord (Aug 12, 2002)

That's true, but his body floated off down the river, so the bad guys wouldn't have known that the ring had fallen off. That means that they couldn't have told sauron where it was.




DWARF LORD


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## YayGollum (Aug 13, 2002)

Ack! That's what I'm trying to say, dude. Sauron knew the general area where the Ring might be. He paid attention to that spot. Probably with a palantir or something. I don't know. One day, a couple of hobbitses show up. Sauron says, "Oo, boy!" Deagol picks it up, Smeagol sees it, and Sauron says, "Cool! That Smeagol dude looks a lot younger and stupider than that Deagol dude! I'll get him to watch my Ring for me!" then poor Smeagol gets messed with. oh well. Got it?


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## Dwarf Lord (Aug 13, 2002)

I just don't think he knew where it was. If the body floated away then the orcs or whatever they were would have tried to get the body. And even of they did There is no way that they knew it fell off In a general area. The Anduin is a big river.





DWARF LORD


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## YayGollum (Aug 14, 2002)

Dude, I don't think that the Isildur dude was alone when he got killed. I'm guessing that the orcs or whatever were running away. They just saw where Isildur was killed, and Sauron paid attention to that area. He knew that the Ring could change size, okay? Why would the Ring just stay on some dead dude's finger? Ack! oh well.


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## Gamil Zirak (Aug 14, 2002)

Here's a question for you. If you die with the ring on and it doesn't fall off of your finger, are you invisible forever?


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## Lantarion (Aug 14, 2002)

Hmm, interesting. I think so. Why would the Ring stop affecting you just because you happen to die? It isn't linked to your life-force, after all..


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## Dwarf Lord (Aug 14, 2002)

O think you would stay invisible forever, but the ring would find away to leave the person dead and find someone else to become the ring bearer.




DWARF LORD


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## Gamil Zirak (Aug 14, 2002)

I mean, you could easily die with the ring on while your fist is clinched.


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## Dwarf Lord (Aug 14, 2002)

Yes that is true, but it says in LOTR that even if you were to sink the ring to the bottom of the ocean it would only be hidden for so long. then some creature would find it, and the evil of the ring would resurface( hey double meaning).


DWARF LORD


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## Anarchist (Aug 26, 2002)

Perhaps if you found a way to keep it on you forever you could be invisible. But, as Dwarf Lord said, the ring would find a way to escape.


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## Gamil Zirak (Aug 26, 2002)

It's kind of hard to control a dead body once rigamortis has set in. Besides, if you don't have a soul the ring won't have an affect on you. It didn't do anything to the chain Bilbo had it on.


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## Wonko The Sane (Sep 26, 2002)

You could pull a gollum and bite off the dead guys finger...


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