# Legolas' relation to Gondolin



## Erikhk (Dec 20, 2017)

Hi everyone!
Ever since I watched "The Hobbit, the Desolation of Smaug" on the world premiere, I have wondered about a small detail: In the movie in Mirkwood, Legolas and the woodelves capture the dwarves and take their weapons. When Legolas examines Orcrist he says something like this: "This was forged in Gondolin by the High elves, *my kin*........."

This sentence is what troubles me. And just a heads-up. I have read most of Tolkien's books, so I know my way around the story. 

Firstly, I know that Legolas isn't even in the Hobbit book. Thus, the blame of this case lies not on Tolkien, but Peter Jackson and the film script team.

Some background info to back up my concern: Legolas' father was Thranduil. Of his mother, very little is said, so I'll asume she's either a Sindar or a Silvian elf. Thanduil's father was Oropher. He founded the elven kingdom in Mirkwood where before him, the Silvian elves had lived without rule. Oropher was originally an elf of Doriath in the First Age. After the War of Wrath he traveled eastwards through Eriador, and over the Misty Mountains. He then settled in Mirkwood, and the Silvian elves took him for their lord.

The people of Gondolin was that of Turgon's people. They were all of the Noldorian exiles from Valinor. 
The father of Turgon was Fingolfin, and his mother was Anarië (One of the Noldor). Turgon's wife was of the Vanyar.

And to get closer to my point: All the elves of Doriath was Teleri, except Galadriel, and the other people of Finarfin's house.
Without further information we have to presume that Oropher, grandfather of Legolas, was a Teleri. 

The Teleri does not have relation to the Noldor of Gondolin. Thus, Legolas should not be allowed to say "... *My kin*..." 

I don't understand why the script writers would put that line in there... It's not necessary and it's basically the same thing as Elrond says earlier in the movie. Elrond and Legolas are not related. 

I'm not sure if there is an answer to this, but at least more people will now be aware of this error.

Thanks for reading this a-bit-too-long post


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## Elthir (Dec 21, 2017)

I'm not a fan of the films, but the term "High Elves", while usually referring to the Noldor, sometimes appears to include the Sindar (and in this context it basically distinguishes the West-elves from the East-elves).

Gondolin wasn't fully Noldorin, so Legolas could be speaking _very generally_ here, essentially referring to the West-elves of Middle-earth as "my kin"... as opposed to the East-elves of Mirkwood.

That said, I see no great reason for Orlando Bloom to have said this, he obviously belongs to the flower clan in any case (being a bloom).

I thought this thread was going to be about the "Legolas of Gondolin" character in the very early Fall of Gondolin, but it's not, so I won't go there... for now.


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## Erikhk (Dec 21, 2017)

Galin said:


> I'm not a fan of the films, but the term "High Elves", while usually referring to the Noldor, sometimes appears to include the Sindar (and in this context it basically distinguishes the West-elves from the East-elves).
> 
> Gondolin wasn't fully Noldorin, so Legolas could be speaking _very generally_ here, essentially referring to the West-elves of Middle-earth as "my kin"... as opposed to the East-elves of Mirkwood.
> 
> ...


The part with the "West-Elves" would explain why he would consider them his kin... 
He then considers all elves that heeded the call of the Valar, as his kin.

Btw! Thanks for the quick answer! I'm new on this page and I really enjoy discussing and learning new Tolkien material!

I wouldn't mind if you "went there", to talk about Legolas of the House of the Tree.
The Fall of Gondolin is so interesting and there is so little that is written of it.


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## Elthir (Dec 21, 2017)

Welcome by the way! I think Tolkien's terms can sometimes be confusing. Here's a relatively recent example of Christopher Tolkien seemingly referring to the Eldar as High Elves though...

"Those who accepted the summons were led on a great march across Middle-earth by the Vala Orome, the Hunter, and they are called the Eldar, the Elves of the Great Journey, the High Elves, distinct from those who, refusing the summons, chose Middle-earth for their land and their destiny." Christopher Tolkien, _Of the Elves,_ Beren and Luthien, 2017

Although here he appears to be distinguishing the High Elves from the refusers, or (it would seem) the _Avari_.

Granted this is intended to be brief, but if I may be so bold as to chose something different (!) compared to Christopher Tolkien here, in brevity I would have distinguished the Eldar/High Elves/West-elves from the East-elves rather, as in Appendix F: "The Elves far back in the Elder Days became divided into two man branches: the West-elves (the Eldar) and the East-elves. Of the latter were most of the Elven-folk of Mirkwood and Lorien,..."

Anyway, I think it can be tricky when trying to be brief about these distinctions.

Legolas of Gondolin

I don't normally link to other threads, but I just recently wrote the following response about this character. I must warn you that some of my posts can be used as a sleeping aid... for your own safety, please do not read them while operating heavy machinery.

You can respond in either thread of course, if you want to 

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/index.php?threads/of-elves.23359/#post-515022


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## Erikhk (Dec 21, 2017)

I mean that I have read somewhere (think it was Silmarillion) that the High elves were those only who had beheld the light of the two trees? 
Well, anyway, if Christopher has said so... He could be right  
But then we have to presume that all "High elves" are kin?

I'll read that thread later today 

Thanks for you answers!


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## Elthir (Dec 21, 2017)

You might be thinking of the Silmarillion index, for example, based on Tolkien's notes:
"The Elves of Aman, and all Elves who ever dwelt in Aman, were called the High Elves (Tareldar) and Elves of the Light (Calaquendi)."

And we even have Tolkien saying, _with respect to the Elves of Middle-earth_, that the High Elves are the Noldor. As I say, it very often refers to the Noldor, but there are a couple of instances in which High Elves appears to be equivalent with "Eldar", and thus include the Sindar. I can't recall the arguable instances right now (although I think one is in Appendix B)...

... but also, when Tolkien changed Noldorin to Sindarin, he yet leaves Frodo appearing to identify the _High Elves_ by their use of _Elbereth_ (Three Is Company), a Sindarin form, which arguably suggests that High Elves includes the Sindar in my opinion, despite that these Elves, in any case, turn out to be (as Gildor reveals) High Elves _as in Noldor!
_
In my opinion when Tolkien initially wrote this passage _Elbereth_ was a "Noldorin" form, and became Sindarin by later default (long story). But by not altering Frodo's reasoning here, the suggestion of a wider group is made (High Elves equals Eldar)... even despite Frodo also saying: "Few of the fairest folk are ever seen in the Shire. Not many now remain in Middle-earth, east of the Great Sea." 

I think even here Tolkien initially meant High Elves (of Middle-earth) as in Noldor, but when Sindarin took the place of Noldorin... well, I've gone off on a tangent again.


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## Erikhk (Dec 21, 2017)

Those are interesting points!
But then we do kind of agree on this 

One last point: Quenya is said to be the High Elven language. This is the language the Noldor brought back from Aman. 
Sindarin on the other hand, is the language of the elves that were left/chose to stay in Beleriand. 
Just another "proof" that High elves are only the elves who has seen the Two Trees


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## CirdanLinweilin (Dec 21, 2017)

Galin said:


> You might be thinking of the Silmarillion index, for example, based on Tolkien's notes:
> "The Elves of Aman, and all Elves who ever dwelt in Aman, were called the High Elves (Tareldar) and Elves of the Light (Calaquendi)."
> 
> And we even have Tolkien saying, _with respect to the Elves of Middle-earth_, that the High Elves are the Noldor. As I say, it very often refers to the Noldor, but there are a couple of instances in which High Elves appears to be equivalent with "Eldar", and thus include the Sindar. I can't recall the arguable instances right now (although I think one is in Appendix B)...
> ...



Huh. I've always thought of the Sindar as "The Grey Elves." Had no idea about this. Am I mistaken here?

Great discussion!
CL


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## Elthir (Dec 21, 2017)

Yep, Tolkien's characterization of High Elven being Quenya also points to the Noldor being High Elves.

But JRRT himself wrote this too: "But the promise made to the Eldar (the High Elves -- not to other varieties, they had long before made their irrevocable choice, preferring Middle-earth to paradise) for their sufferings in the struggle with the prime Dark Lord had still to be fulfilled: that they should always be able to leave Middle-earth, if they wished, and pass over Sea..." JRRT, letter 154, September 1954

[while earlier in April _of that same year,_ and to the same person (letter 144), Tolkien had explained that: "The High Elves met in this book are Exiles, returned back over Sea to Middle-earth,..."]

And published in Appendix B: "In the beginning of this age many of the High Elves still remained. Most of these dwelt in Lindon west of Ered Luin; but before the building of the Barad-dur many of the Sindar passed eastward, and some established..."

In my opinion that appears to include the Sindar among the High Elves. That said, I think one can find more references to the High Elves of Middle-earth meaning the Exiled Noldor, as opposed to seemingly including the Sindar. In _The Road Goes Ever On_ for instance, if I recall correctly, I think all of the High Elves examples there refer to the Noldor.

But maybe we have a case of the same term being used for different distinctions in different contexts. Tolkien knew that some terms could be tricky, change meanings over time for example (Eldar), or be used by different folk for different purposes. In _Quendi and Eldar_ JRRT notes: "When one of the Elves of Aman spoke of the _Eldalie_, the 'Elven folk' he meant vaguely all the race of Elves, though he was probably not thinking of the Avari."

If one is thus _thinking_ of a larger distinction, High Elves equals Eldar... hmm 

Anyway, I guess if I was forced to pick one meaning, it would be as found in the Silmarillion index, but without being forced, I think we can allow some room here, at least arguably, for a second, broader usage too...

... I mean...

... that way, even both CJRT and JRRT can be correct more often


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## Erikhk (Dec 21, 2017)

I like the way you settled this, and I agree with you. I'm still holding on to the Silmarillion definition, but your arguments for High elves = Eldar (the ones who heeded Oromë and the Valar's call) are very good.

I think this is settled then.
And btw! It's so much fun to discuss these things, and to just read and read about nerdy stuff!

Do you recommend that I read "Letters from Tolkien" (or whatever that letter book is called)?
I really want to delve deeper!



CirdanLinweilin said:


> Huh. I've always thought of the Sindar as "The Grey Elves." Had no idea about this. Am I mistaken here?
> 
> Great discussion!
> CL


In The Silmarillion, the Teleri who were waited in Beleriand were the Sindar or grey-elves.

Where as the (also Teleri I think) elves who strayed from the path west, before Ered Luin and the Misty mountains, and then later came to Beleriand or settled in Mirkwood or Loriland, were the green-elves or Silvian elves. 

"The green-elves of Ossiriand" are often referred to in The Silmarillion. The ones living in Doriath however, would be the grey-elves.
This is if we're only taking Silmarillion into the equation.


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## Elthir (Dec 21, 2017)

Yes CirdanLinweilin, as Erikhk already noted (and I'll echo), the Sindar are the Grey Elves (Quenya _Sindar_ basically means "Greys, Grey Ones")... and we were having some fun above to see if we could properly include the Sindar as "High Elves" too, in a certain context maybe.

The Grey-elves are, in any case, West-elves and Eldar, according to Appendix F, for instance.

Erikhk, I would certainly recommend _The Letters of JRR Tolkien_. It's not all Middle-earth related, but it's all interesting I think...

... for Tolkien folk


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## CirdanLinweilin (Dec 21, 2017)

Galin said:


> Yes CirdanLinweilin, as Erikhk already noted (and I'll echo), the Sindar are the Grey Elves (Quenya _Sindar_ basically means "Greys, Grey Ones")... and we were having some fun above to see if we could properly include the Sindar as "High Elves" too, in a certain context maybe.
> 
> The Grey-elves are, in any case, West-elves and Eldar, according to Appendix F, for instance.
> 
> ...



Thanks fellows, I was getting confused. Now, I understand.


Thanks!
CL


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## Elthir (Dec 22, 2017)

Hmm. After sleeping on it, I did this... 

As far as _author published_ evidence (so far), all I really have is one description from Appendix B, which _seems_ to include the Sindar among the High Elves. And one statement from Frodo which _seems_ to agree... and yet, as noted, I think this second example is possibly the result of the notable change later made to the history of the language(s) of the Exiles (although that said, "author published" remains author published).

Not to ignore the posthumously published examples, but to distinguish them, I want to collect any examples Tolkien himself ever published with the term _High Elves_ or _High Kindred_ (or similar). Anyone have searchable versions of _The Lord of the Rings_ and _The Hobbit..._

... and importantly, anyone care enough to point out any chapters in which these terms could be found? RGEO isn't that long, so unless I missed one skimming this text, I think I got them all below. I can check _The Adventures of Bombadil_ too (though it's hidden away at the moment, it appears)

Who's bored enough here to check my list from _The Lord of the Rings_ 

These I found with the help of an index, but I'm not sure I wholly trust it !

Note On The Shire Records

"There, though Elrond had departed, his sons long remained, together with some of the High-elven folk."

The Tale

The song ended. "These are High Elves! They spoke the name of Elbereth!" said Frodo in amazement.

"And there is the Tree of the High Elves!" said Legolas.

"It is said that there are still havens of the High Elves, but they are far north and west, beyond the land of the Halflings."

"With them went many Elves of the High Kindred who would no longer stay in Middle-earth;..."

Appendix B

"In the beginning of this age many of the High Elves still remained. Most of these dwelt in Lindon west of Ered Luin; but before the building of the Barad-dur many of the Sindar passed eastward, and some established..."

The first edition was slightly different. "... High Elves still remained. The exiled Noldor dwelt in Lindon, but many of the Sindar passed eastward..."

Appendix F

"The High-elven was an ancient tongue of Eldamar beyond the Sea (...) by the High Elves, who had returned in exile to Middle-earth at the end of the First Age."

The Road Goes Ever On

"But it was impossible for one of the High Elves to overcome the yearning for the Sea, and the longing to pass over it again to the land of their former bliss."

"The language is Sindarin, but of a variety used by the High Elves (of which kind were most of the Elves of Rivendell), marked in high style and verse by the influence of Quenya, which had been originally their former tongue."

"After the fall of Elendil the High Elves took back this Stone into their own care, and it was not destroyed, nor used again by Men."

"The High Elves (such as did not dwell in or near the Havens) journeyed to the Tower Hills at intervals to look afar at Eressea..."

"Owing to the close association of the High-Elves with the Valar, it was applied..."

"The High Elves said that these forms were always in some degree radiant..."

"In Sindarin, especially as used by the High Elves, the originally identical word..."

So already we have a goodly number of arguable references to the Exiled Noldor


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## Erikhk (Dec 22, 2017)

It does seem that JRRT isn't agreeing wholly with himself here...
But i get the pont


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## Elthir (Dec 22, 2017)

I do go overboard sometimes... assuming that expression means the same thing in Norway


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## Erikhk (Dec 22, 2017)

Galin said:


> I do go overboard sometimes... assuming that expression means the same thing in Norway


I'm not sure it does...
But I understood what you meant 



Galin said:


> I do go overboard sometimes... assuming that expression means the same thing in Norway


Oh and btw!
How do English speaking readers pronounce different words in Middle Earth?
Valar of Ainur, for example. How are these words pronounced?


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## Elthir (Dec 27, 2017)

For me, since these words are Elvish of course, I try to follow the pronunciation guides in the books, or listen to Tolkien or his son Christopher pronounce names (if possible).

Ai is like English eye, and ur at the end of a word is like oor (not as in English fur), to use Christopher Tolkien's own examples in _Note On Pronunciation_, Silmarillion. R is trilled.

A approximately as in father (Appendix E). Regarding L, Tolkien notes "... more or less the sound of English initial l, as in let. It was, however, to some degree 'palatized' between e, i and a consonant, or finally after e, i."

Christopher Tolkien says Valar about 1 minute 56 seconds into this reading...


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## Erikhk (Dec 29, 2017)

I see.
I always tend to use the rolling "r"s, because of my Norwegian "r". And I thought that it would be okay because of Tolkien's inspiration from Norse mythology. 
But I'll try to read it as Christopher does from now on


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## Elthir (Dec 29, 2017)

I have a vague memory of a tape in which Christopher Tolkien reads some of the nomenclature from _The Lord of the Rings_... to help with a radio adaptation, or something?

Anyway, I have an even vaguer memory of him saying (something like) that although Elvish r's are properly trilled in all positions, he didn't think it was essential for "correct" pronunciation... in other words, he appeared to deem one correct -- as in close enough -- if one pronounced the rest of a given name, or word, correctly.

If I recall somewhat correctly, that is 

I wish I could find this again in any case. It was on YouTube, but now I can't seem to locate it. It began with someone talking about Christopher Tolkien's reading of the names, and then playing CJRT's part for an audience.


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## Erikhk (Dec 29, 2017)

I see. Thanks for the explanation


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## Laineth (Jan 2, 2018)

Erikhk said:


> Hi everyone!
> Ever since I watched "The Hobbit, the Desolation of Smaug" on the world premiere, I have wondered about a small detail: In the movie in Mirkwood, Legolas and the woodelves capture the dwarves and take their weapons. When Legolas examines Orcrist he says something like this: "This was forged in Gondolin by the High elves, *my kin*........."
> 
> This sentence is what troubles me. And just a heads-up. I have read most of Tolkien's books, so I know my way around the story.
> ...



This issue doesn't come from the script, but from whoever did the subtitles. The subtitle is "This is an ancient Elvish blade. Forged by my kin." What Legolas actually says is "This sword was made in Gondolin. Forged by the Noldor."

*Elendilion* explains:


> 2. Legolas (investigating Orcrist, Thorin’s sword):
> *Echannen i vegil hen vin Gondolin. Magannen nan Gelydh.*
> (subtitle) This is an ancient Elvish blade. Forged by my kin. (lit.: This sword was made in Gondolin. Forged by the Noldor.)
> 
> ...



As for Legolas's mother, she was Silvan:



> Legolas means 'green-leaves', *a woodland name -- dialectal form of pure Sindarin* _laegolas_: *_lassë _(High-elven _lasse_, S. las(s) 'leaf'; *_gwa-lassa/*gwa-lassië_ 'collection of leaves, folliage' (H.E. _laica_, S. _laeg_ (*seldom used*, usually replaced by _calen_), *woodland *_*leg*_*-*). - _Letter 211_



Legolas's name is the only case we know of where a Sindarin word is Silvanized, instead of the other way around. Interestingly, Mirkwood's two names use the common calen, instead of laeg: Eryn Galen and Eryn Lasgalen. The only other time we have laeg used is for the Laegrim, or Green-elves. Both they and the Silvan elves are Nandor.



> Legolas is translated Greenleaf (II 106, 154) *a suitable name for a Woodland Elf*, though one of royal and *originally Sindarin line*. 'Fiery locks' is entirely inappropriate: he was not a balrog! I think an investigator, not led astray by my supposed devotion to A-S, might have perceived the relation of the element -las to lassi 'leaves', in Galadriel's lament, lasse-lanta 'leaf-fall' = autumn. III 386; and Eryn Lasgalen III 375. 'Technically' Legolas is a compound (according to rules) of S. laeg 'viridis' fresh and green, and go-lass 'collection of leaves, foliage'. - _Letter 297_



Tolkien calls Legolas a Wood Elf. He also says that Legolas comes from an “originally Sindarin line”. Originally, as in it didn't _stay_ a purely Sindarin line – otherwise the line would be, “one of royal and Sindarin line.”

And Legolas identifies as a Wood Elf:



> “That is true,” said Legolas. “*But the Elves of this land were of a race strange to us of the silvan folk*, and the trees and the grass do not now remember them: Only I hear the stones lament them: _deep they delved us, fair they wrought us, high they builded us; but they are gone_. They are gone. They sought the Havens long ago.” - _Lord of the Rings, The Ring Goes South_
> “Yes, they are Elves,” said Legolas; “and they say that you breathe so loud that they could shoot you in the dark.” Sam hastily put his hand over his mouth. “But they say also that you need have no fear. They have been aware of us for a long while. They heard my voice across the Nimrodel, and *knew that I was one of their Northern kindred*, and therefore they did not hinder our crossing; and afterwards they heard my song.”
> [cut]
> “Welcome!” the Elf then said again in the Common Language, speaking slowly. “We seldom use any tongue but our own; for we dwell now in the heart of the forest, and do not willingly have dealings with any other folk. *Even our own kindred in the North are sundered from us.* [cut] And since *you come with an Elf of our kindred*, we are willing to befriend you, as Elrond asked; though it is not our custom to lead strangers through our land. But you must stay here tonight. How many are you?”
> ...



“Our Northern kindred” is a direct reference to the Silvan elves. There are only a few Sindarin elves in comparison to the Silvan, and Haldir and Legolas are talking generally. Also, Haldir is clearly not a noble.

Legolas also says, “I am an Elf _and a kinsman_ here,”. He is stressing his connection to Haldir as a fellow Silvan elf.

Frodo also notes that Legolas is different from all of the other elves he's met:



> He then pointed out and named those whom Frodo had not met before. There was a younger dwarf at Glóin's side: his son Gimli. Beside Glorfindel there were several other counsellors of Elrond's household, of whom Erestor was the chief; and with him was Galdor, an Elf from the Grey Havens who had come on an errand from Círdan the Shipwright. *There was also a strange Elf *clad in green and brown, Legolas, a messenger from his father, Thranduil, the King of the Elves of Northern Mirkwood. - _Lord of the Rings, The Council of Elrond_



And Gimli also calls Legolas a Wood Elf:



> Legolas: “I could have been happy here, if I had come in days of peace.”
> “I dare say you could,” snorted Gimli. “*You are a Wood-elf, anyway*, though Elves of any kind are strange folk. - _Lord of the Rings, The White Rider_


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## octoburn (Jan 2, 2018)

Could have been a simple nod to the fact that there was also a Legolas Greenleaf in Gondolin...


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## Elthir (Jan 3, 2018)

Good work Laineth! As an unfan of Jackson's films myself, I didn't know the line in question had been a translation of (Neo) Elvish.

On another note, I don't think that Legolas' mother was necessarily a Silvan Elf though, based on what we know today anyway.

For example (with respect to some of your arguments above, for now), the name _Elrohir_ being a Gondorized form doesn't mean Elrohir's mother was Gondorian of course. As you've illustrated above, Legolas is considered a Silvan or Woodland Elf, and his name reflects this. According to one late note at least, Oropher and his "handful" of Sindar had taken "names of Silvan form and style."

The History of Galadriel and Celeborn, Appendix B, _The Sindarin Princes Of The Silvan Elves_, Unfinished Tales

I don't think the Woodland form _Legolas_ need say anything about Legolas' mother, including the fact that Sindarin laeg was seldom used and employed in the First Age to describe the _Lindi_ of Ossiriand (the "Green Elves" called themselves the _Lindi_ based on the old clan name _*Lindai_).


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## Yalerd (Jan 6, 2018)

With all do respect, is it safe to criticize the quote itself? Legolas was never in The Hobbit, or did he make such a quote in any appendices or even unofficial notes that JRRT made, unless I missed it. Obviously it's a fun topic hypothetically, don't mean to be a negative Nancy


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## Elthir (Jan 7, 2018)

In the context of the films though (as here we're in a film based section of chat), I think it's okay to wonder why the filmmakers would have Bloom say this... but it appears that the character Bloom plays didn't say this, but the film's translator of some Neo-Sindarin put it on screen as a translation... or something like that... anyway...

... don't now why said translator wasn't a bit more accurate translating some made up Neo- elvish based on Tolkien's made up actual Elvish!


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## Yalerd (Jan 7, 2018)

Galin said:


> In the context of the films though (as here we're in a film based section of chat), I think it's okay to wonder why the filmmakers would have Bloom say this... but it appears that the character Bloom plays didn't say this, but the film's translator of some Neo-Sindarin put it on screen as a translation... or something like that... anyway...
> 
> ... don't now why said translator wasn't a bit more accurate translating some made up Neo- elvish based on Tolkien's made up actual Elvish!


Oh right. I just clicked on latest threads. Carry on.


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## Laineth (Feb 5, 2018)

Galin said:


> Good work Laineth! As an unfan of Jackson's films myself, I didn't know the line in question had been a translation of (Neo) Elvish.
> 
> On another note, I don't think that Legolas' mother was necessarily a Silvan Elf though, based on what we know today anyway.
> 
> ...



Thank you for the response! You're right that Tolkien never explicitly stated that Legolas's mother was Silvan, but I think there's a large amount of evidence to infer it from. Especially since Tolkien never gave us any alternative versions, which is rare for him! 

I'm aware of that quote, but LotR App F says: 



> Of the latter kind were most of the Elven-folk of Mirkwood and Lórien; but their languages do not appear in this history, in which all the Elvish names and words are of Eldarin form.1
> In Lórien at this period Sindarin was spoken, though with an 'accent', since most of its folk were of Silvan origin. This 'accent' and his own limited acquaintance with Sindarin misled Frodo (as is pointed out in _The Thain's Book_ by a commentator of Gondor). All the Elvish words cited in Book Two chs 6, 7, 8 are in fact Sindarin, and so are most of the names of places and persons. But Lórien, Caras Galadhon, Amroth, Nimrodel are probably of Silvan origin, adapted to Sindarin.



So Oropher and the other Sindar couldn't have been "adopting their language and taking names of Silvan form and style." The Silvan elves adopted Sindarin. Also, as I said in my original post, Legolas's name is literally the only case we have of a Sindarin word being Silvanized, and the two names of his realm use the purely Sindarin calen. Also, I think the fact that the only other time laeg was used was with Laegrim is more support - both the Laegrim and Silvan elves are Nandor elves.

Again, nothing is explicitly stated, but I think the evidence we have is pretty significant.


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## Elthir (Feb 5, 2018)

For clarity, my stance on the language(s) of Mirkwood is still undecided, as Tolkien himself appears to have wrestled with the matter. 



> *Laineth* wrote: "So Oropher and the other Sindar couldn't have been "adopting their language and taking names of Silvan form and style." The Silvan elves adopted Sindarin."



Laineth, from what I see in your quote from Appendix F, the Silvan Elves of Lorien spoke Sindarin (an Eldarin language), but not necessarily the Silvan Elves (or Tawarwaith) of Mirkwood though.

This footnote was added to the second edition, and begins "In Lorien..." because that's where Tolkien had published words that seemed Sindarin, despite other descriptions, and when he gets to this section of the book he begins his wrangling with: "Actually the matter of the elvish tongue of the "Silvan Folk" is rather confused in the L. R." JRRT, entry 1, 356, Words, Phrases and Passages, PE 17.

So Tolkien ultimately adds his note to the 1960s revised edition; and while I accept this as true, I have to wonder if JRRT recalled that even Aragorn _seems _incapable of understanding the songs sung about Gandalf for example, or, with respect to the Company in general: "They had not seen the Lord and Lady again, and they had little speech with any of the Elven-folk; for few of these spoke any but their own silvan tongue."

Frodo is one thing, but that's quite the accent to fool Aragorn! 

Anyway (for two examples) at one point JRRT states that by the end of the Third Age the Silvan Tongues had probably ceased in Lorien and Mirkwood, and (from a late letter dated Dec. 1972) _"The Silvan Elves of Thranduil's realm did not speak S. but a related language or dialect."_

But my main point is, for me Appendix F doesn't speak to Thranduil's _Tawarwaith. _And I think we have a matter here that hadn't yet been nailed down, at least in a straightforward fashion in author-published works.​


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## Prince Ashitaka (Feb 5, 2018)

Erikhk said:


> Hi everyone!
> Ever since I watched "The Hobbit, the Desolation of Smaug" on the world premiere, I have wondered about a small detail: In the movie in Mirkwood, Legolas and the woodelves capture the dwarves and take their weapons. When Legolas examines Orcrist he says something like this: "This was forged in Gondolin by the High elves, *my kin*........."
> 
> This sentence is what troubles me. And just a heads-up. I have read most of Tolkien's books, so I know my way around the story.
> ...



Because you're referring to the movie and everyone on here is gathering their knowledge from the books I think the answer is very simple.

In the movies we never hear of the western elves or high elves or sindarin or noldorin (think Galadriel mentions it once in the movie), so I think any elves are considered Legolas' kin. 

Peter Jackson kept all the movies very simple and didn't go indepth about the different cultures and groups of elves so not to confuse the audience - which I think is the right call. 

So any elves be they noldorin, sindarin, high elves or any other are consider to Legolas his kin. 

That's my assumption anyways. However there are a lot of dialogue I'm not particularly happy with in the Hobbit movies.


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## Laineth (Feb 6, 2018)

Galin said:


> For clarity, my stance on the language(s) of Mirkwood is still undecided, as Tolkien himself appears to have wrestled with the matter.
> 
> Laineth, from what I see in your quote from Appendix F, the Silvan Elves of Lorien spoke Sindarin (an Eldarin language), but not necessarily the Silvan Elves (or Tawarwaith) of Mirkwood though.
> 
> ...



You're right that LotR App F focuses on Lorien. However, I don't think that implies Mirkwood is different, just that no one went there during LotR.

I'm a little confused. I (unfortunately) don't have any of the PE's, but when I've seen that quote/passage its been attributed to Christopher Gilson's commentary. Also, my copy of LotR says: "They had not seen the Lord and Lady again, and they had little speech with the Elven-folk; for few of these knew or would use the Westron tongue." I wonder why we have two different versions?

With regards to Aragorn and the laments, I don't think there's a discrepancy. First, LotR is mainly from the hobbits' pov, and they have no reason to know that Aragorn is fluent in the Elven languages - Legolas is the only member of the Fellowship who probably knows that. Second, out of all the Fellowship, Aragorn is probably the one grieving the most right then. I really can't see him volunteering that information at that time.

I had forgotten that quote from the Letters. However, with regards to UT, as you reference, App A says "By the end of the Third Age the Silvan tongues had probably ceased to be spoken in the two regions that had importance at the time of the War of the Ring: Lórien and the realm of Thranduil in northern Mirkwood. All that survived of them in the records was a few words and several names of persons and places." UT App B is the one that says "they were soon merged with the Silvan Elves, adopting their language and taking names of Silvan form and style."

Going back to LotR, both of the two names of the realm are pure Sindarin, and (as far as I'm aware) both Oropher and Thranduil are pure Sindarin names. This directly contradicts UT App B. Everything except that line (and that letter, which I had forgotten) seems to match up.


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## Elthir (Feb 7, 2018)

In my opinion the matter of the language(s) of Thranduil's folk is up in the air, and thus shaky ground for a basis from which other arguments flow.



> I'm a little confused. I (unfortunately) don't have any of the PE's, but when I've seen that quote/passage its been attributed to Christopher Gilson's commentary.



I have PE17 and can attest that the line I provided above is Tolkien's; and also that he follows this up with a somewhat lengthy musing about the matter.



> Also, my copy of LotR says: "They had not seen the Lord and Lady again, and they had little speech with the Elven-folk; for few of these knew or would use the Westron tongue." I wonder why we have two different versions?



My version is from the first edition, but now that you raise the question I have other editions which indeed say Westron tongue. If Tolkien himself revised this, then it wasn't taken up into my revised edition published by Ballantine Books (which I used for the quote).

Hammond and Scull's later editions include revisions authorized by Christopher Tolkien, but if they made this change they don't mention it in their guide to _The Lord of the Rings_ (that I can locate anyway, so far) -- which I would expect them to do, if so.

For the moment I'm going to guess this could be a Tolkien-made revision. It would make sense to alter this anyway, but I don't have Hammond and Scull's detailed presentation of the changes that went on with respect to various volumes and editions over the years. My Ballantine paperback also has the goofed-up wrong version of Quenya "omentilmo".





> With regards to Aragorn and the laments, I don't think there's a discrepancy. First, LotR is mainly from the hobbits' pov, and they have no reason to know that Aragorn is fluent in the Elven languages - Legolas is the only member of the Fellowship who probably knows that.



But early on the Hobbit-made tale notes that: "Once or twice he [Glorfindel] spoke to Strider in the Elf-tongue."



> Second, out of all the Fellowship, Aragorn is probably the one grieving the most right then. I really can't see him volunteering that information at that time.



Yet Tolkien makes a point of noting that it's Legolas who would not interpret the songs for the Company, partly due to grief, and that the Company heard the name _Mithrandir_ among the "sweet sad words that they could not understand."

But anyway, this much is a side issue. As I said, Tolkien published his footnote, so I accept it, despite this wondering about Aragorn, for example.

The main issue is Greenleaf's mom and langwich stuff...



> I had forgotten that quote from the Letters. However, with regards to UT, as you reference, App A says "By the end of the Third Age the Silvan tongues had probably ceased to be spoken in the two regions that had importance at the time of the War of the Ring: Lórien and the realm of Thranduil in northern Mirkwood. All that survived of them in the records was a few words and several names of persons and places." UT App B is the one that says "they were soon merged with the Silvan Elves, adopting their language and taking names of Silvan form and style."



Yes, and there's yet another statement relating that Sindarin ("his" refers to Thranduil's house) "was used in his house, though not by all his folk" 

note: incidentally this is stated in a text where Tolkien again notes that Sindarin was spoken in Lorien, and accounts for Frodo being misled because Lorien Sindarin: "... probably differed in little more than what would now be popularly called "accent": mainly differences in vowel sounds and intonation sufficient to mislead one who, as Frodo, was not well acquainted with purer Sindarin."

In any case, these examples concerning the tongue of Mirkwood are late posthumously published musings, and we don't even know which might be the latest.


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## Laineth (Feb 10, 2018)

I had forgotton about the quote with Glorfindel - it has been a while since I've reread that part of FotR.  And again, you're right that nothing's explicitly stated. Thank you for the interesting discussion.


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