# Galadriel's Wall-Toppling?



## Celebthôl (May 19, 2003)

*(can a Mod make up a good title for this please)*

In the appedacies (sp) of ROTK, there is a line

"They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, the forest was cleansed"

How? there was no power in her ring, how could her ring do this even with its power?

if you wanted to read the quote its Appendix B, The Tale of Years, The Third Age, its in the paragraph right after it tells of Gollum falling into the cracks of doom...


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## Beleg (May 19, 2003)

I don't thinK Galadriel and the Army of Lorien needed the help of any Ring to destroy the pits of Dor-Guldor, they defeated the remnants of Sauron's forces and destroyed their strongholds, their fortresses, and filled their pits. It was a thing that Elves could easily do. No Magic or the Enchantment was required to do that. 

Besides Nenya, the Ring of Water was used for preservence and Maintainance, they didn't or so I believe had the ability to be used as offensive objects.


> They are not idle; they were not made as weapons of war or conquest: that is not their power


The Council of Elrond, FOTR.


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## Celebthôl (May 19, 2003)

But it wasnt Galadriels army, it was Celeborns, and it specifically states that Galadriel threw down the wall etc, how can she? Elves cant just magically tare down walls etc...


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## Beleg (May 19, 2003)

> Three time Lorien had been assailed from Dol Guldur, but besides the ballour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come there himself. Though grievou harm was done to the fair woods on the borders, the assults were driven back; and when the shadow passed, Celeborn come forth and led the host of Lorien over Anduin in man boats. They took Dol Fuldur and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits and the forest was cleansed.





> But it wasnt Galadriels army, it was Celeborns, and it specifically states that Galadriel threw down the wall etc, how can she? Elves cant just magically tare down walls etc...


They are both the Lord and Lady and we have no reason to negate that Galadriel might have arrived along with Celeborn for the attack on Dol Guldur, as she shares the rule of Lorien (when the need asks) with him. Elves would give as much reverence to his word and possible more, then to Celeborn's. 
And if we take the phrase "threw down the wall" in its literal term then there are dozens of phrases in LOTR which had to be taken in literal term and whose meaning won't quite add up.
It is just a symbolic phrase used by Tolkien to express that Galadriel possibly/probably ordered her people to destroy the dungeons/pits/fortresses of Dol Guldur. 
Who said she magically tore down walls? The most probable interpretation of the sentence is that by Galadriel's order the fortressess/dungeons/pits were destroyed.


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## Aulë (May 19, 2003)

Maybe she was talented at weilding a sledge-hammer....
She DID have over 8000 years to practice...


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## Celebthôl (May 19, 2003)

well i guess its all down to interpritation, alrighty ta...


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## Inderjit S (May 19, 2003)

And *example* of a Elf 'throwing down' a wall, as you call it, is Luthien's 'throwing down' of Minas Tirith.


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## Beleg (May 19, 2003)

> Then Lúthien stood upon the bridge, and declare her power: and the spell was loosed that bound stone to stone, and the gates were thrown down, and the walls opened, and the pits laid bare;



But in the case of Luthien it was possible that she sung some enchanted song of great power, since her voice is often termed as magical. In the case of Galadriel I don't think that Tolkien meant it that way when he wrote the Dor Guldur fiasco, although it is a possible option. .


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## Inderjit S (May 19, 2003)

> But in the case of Luthien it was possible that she sung some enchanted song of great power, since her voice is often termed as magical. In the case of Galadriel I don't think that Tolkien meant it that way when he wrote the Dor Guldur fiasco, although it is a possible option. .




Yes, I was merely giving a example of a throwing down of a fortress by a Elf, I didn't say they had to use the same methods, so to speak to throw it down.


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## Chymaera (May 19, 2003)

Why do you doubt the power of Galadriel?
She would be just as powerful as Lúthien.

Her power had to be hidden so as not to attract Sauron to early.

Galadriel is a Princess of the House of Finwë. She has beheld the light of the Two Trees. She crossed the Grinding Ice to commadand and rule her own realms. She was not followed because she had a pretty face (even though she does) She was followed because she had POWER.

She was a member of the White Council and she was no subservient to her husband Celeborn.

Are you surprised that Gandalf stood up to the Balrog or the Witch-king before that all we had seen of his power was the fireworks in Hobbiton.

Galadriel like Gandalf did not flunt her powers that just frightens your enemeies in changes there plans.


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## Beleg (May 19, 2003)

Erm, Chymera I don't know at what you are getting to, But we never Doubted Galadriel's power. But It is a Fact that her voice didn't hold the same power as that of Tuvinel.


> She would be just as powerful as Lúthien.



No, she isn't. Specially regarding the enhanced magical voice matter.


> Galadriel is a Princess of the House of Finwë. She has beheld the light of the Two Trees. She crossed the Grinding Ice to commadand and rule her own realms. She was not followed because she had a pretty face (even though she does) She was followed because she had POWER.



Who is doubting she didn't have power?



> She was a member of the White Council and she was no subservient to her husband Celeborn.



Agreed and as I have posted, she was probably greater then him in Elvish Power. But Galadriel's greatness would be different then Celeborn's greatness. She wouldn't hold weapons so we can't compare them with regard to physical power. 



> Are you surprised that Gandalf stood up to the Balrog or the Witch-king before that all we had seen of his power was the fireworks in Hobbiton.



Not that actually, the fire at Amon Sul was a pretty cool thing too and not something everyone could do.


> Galadriel like Gandalf did not flunt her powers that just frightens your enemeies in changes there plans.



Come again?


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## Chymaera (May 19, 2003)

Sorry, Beleg I was responding to Celebthol's first post. 



> _Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow _
> *Erm, Chymera I don't know at what you are getting to, But we never Doubted Galadriel's power. But It is a Fact that her voice didn't hold the same power as that of Tuvinel.*


Celebthol seemed to have some doubt


> *No, she isn't. Specially regarding the enhanced magical voice matter. *


Perhaps, but Galdriel had compareable power though less than Lúthien 


> *Who is doubting she didn't have power?*


Celebthol seemed to have some doubt 





> *Agreed and as I have posted, she was probably greater then him in Elvish Power. But Galadriel's greatness would be different then Celeborn's greatness. She wouldn't hold weapons so we can't compare them with regard to physical power. *


 No she wouldn't use physical power but the Appendix states that Galadriel threw down the walls of Dol Guldur. That is just what she did using the power that she had. She did not need a ring of power to help her.




> *Not that actually, the fire at Amon Sul was a pretty cool thing too and not something everyone could do. *


 No not everyone could do that but that was witnessed from many leauges away. 



> *Come again? *


 If Galadriel or Gandalf had come forth in all their power against Sauron, than Sauron would probably have unleashed the power of Mordor against them and then all would have been lost at that point Gondor and Rohan and all who fought against Sauron were not ready for battle and would have been swept away.

Frodo could not have gotten anywhere near Mordor if open war had broken out.


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## Ithrynluin (May 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Chymaera _
> *Why do you doubt the power of Galadriel?
> She would be just as powerful as Lúthien.*





> _Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow _
> *No, she isn't. Specially regarding the enhanced magical voice matter. *



I disagree that Lúthien is greater than Galadriel. Their powers are different. 

Lúthien had a Maiarin mother from whom she inherited the power of enchantment - Galadriel didn't have that. 

The following is said of Galadriel in _Unfinished Tales; The History of Galadriel and Celeborn_:



> she was strong of body, mind, and will





> a match for both the loremasters and the athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth



Was Lúthien a match for the loremasters and athletes of the Eldar? I don't think so, especially the 'athletes' part. Galadriel was not called 'man - maiden' for a reason. So in this respect Galadriel is the winner.



> From her earliest years she had a marvellous gift of insight into the minds of others



Galadriel had great insight, a different form of 'mental' ability than Lúthien - though undoubtedly both useful in different ways.

I'd say Galadriel and Lúthien are pretty much on the same scale.


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## Tar-Elenion (May 19, 2003)

In the _Shibboleth of Feanor_ JRRT wrote:
"For Fëanor beheld the hair of Galadriel with wonder and delight. He begged three times for a tress, but Galadriel would not give him even one hair. These two kinsfolk, the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor, were unfriends for ever."

To this he appended a note:

"Who together with the greatest of all the Eldar, Luthien Tinuviel, daughter of Elu Thingol, are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the Elves."
The "Who" refers to the Eldar of Valinor.

So JRRT seems to think that Luthien is the greatest of all the Eldar, and greater than both Feanor and Galadriel.


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## Arvedui (May 20, 2003)

T-E forgot one more quote from _The Shibboleth_ :



> Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Fëanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years.


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## Elu Thingol (May 20, 2003)

> _Posted by Beleg_strongbow_
> But in the case of Luthien it was possible that she sung some enchanted song of great power



If you read the text in the Silmarillion correctly, it is not by song that Lúthien tears down the walls



> _The Sil Chap. 19_
> Then Sauron yielded himself, and Lúthien *took mastery of the isle and all that was there*; and Huan released him.





> Then Lúthien stood upon the bridge, and *declared her power*: and the spell was loosed that bound stone to stone...



Clearly, it is Lúthien's mastery alone which allowed her to tear down the walls. She simply declared her power and the walls obeyed her commands. 

Galadriel could possibly have done something similar. Since Sauron was no longer around to claim mastery over the building, she simply may have declared her power.


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## Beleg (May 20, 2003)

> If you read the text in the Silmarillion correctly, it is not by song that Lúthien tears down the walls



I used the phrase "it is possible". Why is it possible? Because the concept of Luthien just ordering and the walls obeying her command as if they were humans, just seems peculiar. A possible interpretation can be that Luthien sung some song of great enchantment, and the magnitude of her voice increased, causing the walls to tremor and finally give way.

But I agree the above notion seems now to me too out of fray.

Another possiblity is that at that precise moment her voice beheld so much authority and power that it even had the power to mold and manipulate walls, things made of stone.


> Clearly, it is Lúthien's mastery alone which allowed her to tear down the walls. She simply declared her power and the walls obeyed her commands.



This sounds queeer to an extent. How did the walls obey her command? Did she just say that she was now the ruler and so she should be obeyed? No, at that moment she would have shown some power, some authority and her main power was her enchantment of voice, singing some enchanted song, or ordering in a magical voice...


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## Ithrynluin (May 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Tar-Elenion _
> *
> "Who together with the greatest of all the Eldar, Luthien Tinuviel, daughter of Elu Thingol, are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the Elves."
> The "Who" refers to the Eldar of Valinor.
> ...



I am very much aware of this quote, but what is his reason for putting Lúthien as number one? He gives none. Her recovery of the Silmaril? According to all the information on Galadriel and Lúthien provided in the books, I'd put them on the same spot.


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## Arvedui (May 20, 2003)

I do not read T-E's quote that way.
As I see it, it is just a reference to who/what are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the Elves. It even says so plainly.

In the Shibolleth itself, Galadriel is mentioned as the greatest of the Noldor, except maybe Fëanor.


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## Celebthôl (May 20, 2003)

question, could Feanor tear down a wall just like that?


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## Ithrynluin (May 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Celebthôl _
> *question, could Feanor tear down a wall just like that? *



I think he probably could...but on the other hand it seems more than just a coincidence that two female Elves did this 'wall toppling'...perhaps some power typical of great female Elves - different than the warrior strenght of the males?


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## Celebthôl (May 20, 2003)

they were both Maia it has just struck me, it might have been the Maia part of them to do it?


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## Arvedui (May 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *I think he probably could...but on the other hand it seems more than just a coincidence that two female Elves did this 'wall toppling'...perhaps some power typical of great female Elves - different than the warrior strenght of the males? *



I actually know some women who have such strength once every month!


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## Inderjit S (May 20, 2003)

Luthien was Half Maia. Galadriel wasn't Maia at all. A example akin to this is the Witchkings words that broke the gates of Minas Tirith. 

I think Feanor was as powerful as both Luthien and Galadriel and may have been capable of such a feat. Though this is pure speculation.


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## Celebthôl (May 20, 2003)

ooops your right  bah amature mistake


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## Tar-Elenion (May 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> I am very much aware of this quote, but what is his reason for putting Lúthien as number one? He gives none. Her recovery of the Silmaril? According to all the information on Galadriel and Lúthien provided in the books, I'd put them on the same spot.


What would the reason be for putting Galadriel as 'number one'?
JRRT says Luthien is the greatest of all the Eldar and this when writing directly about Feanor and Galadriel being great. That is good enough for me.


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## Tar-Elenion (May 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Arvedui _
> I do not read T-E's quote that way.
> As I see it, it is just a reference to who/what are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the Elves. It even says so plainly.


The quote provided quite plainly states that Luthien was the greatest of all the Eldar, including both Feanor and Galadriel. While it is possible to disagree with JRRT's statement, it is difficult to read it any other way. The Eldar of Valinor and Luthien are the chief matter of Elvish history and legend. Luthien was the greatest of all the Eldar.


> In the Shibolleth itself, Galadriel is mentioned as the greatest of the Noldor, except maybe Fëanor.


Luthien was not a Noldo, so the statement in no way contradicts Galadriel maybe being the greatest of the Noldor.


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## Elu Thingol (May 20, 2003)

> _Posted by Beleg_strongbow_
> This sounds queeer to an extent. How did the walls obey her command? Did she just say that she was now the ruler and so she should be obeyed? No, at that moment she would have shown some power, some authority and her main power was her enchantment of voice, singing some enchanted song, or ordering in a magical voice...



Even if by some chance Lúthien had sung some great song to tear down the walls, it is irrelevant. What matters is that Sauron had given her mastery over the isle. Meaning that if Sauron had granted the same thing to... let's say Galadriel, then Galadriel would also have been able to tear down the walls. I'm simply stating that *Lúthien's authority over the walls is not granted to her by her voice but by the mastery given from Sauron.*



> _Posted by Beleg_strongbow_
> How did the walls obey her command?





> and the spell was loosed that bound stone to stone


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## Celebthôl (May 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Tar-Elenion _
> *Luthien was not a Noldo, so the statement in no way contradicts Galadriel maybe being the greatest of the Noldor. *



Yeah Lúthien was probibly the most powerful Eldar, the theres and bloomin good reason for it, she half Maia, but whats the point in dicussing whos the best Eldar seeing as Lúthien in now part of the Man race and is therefore excluded, now back to the topic please


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## Inderjit S (May 21, 2003)

> but whats the point in dicussing whos the best Eldar seeing as Lúthien in now part of the Man race and is therefore excluded



But if Luthien wasn't 'Eldar' then why would Tolkein mention her as being 'greatest of the Eldar'?


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## Celebthôl (May 21, 2003)

Because in her time she was, but seeing as she is now Atani whats the use of discussing it, she died and went beyond the confines of the world, therefore no long is she an Eldar...


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