# Melkor a Vala?



## Anamatar IV (Feb 10, 2003)

I am asking you a question. After Melkor's rebellion and after he was renamed Morgoth could he be counted a Vala? What is a Vala aside from an Ainu with more strength and taken with physical form? What was Melkor really in the Wars of Beleriand? Was he a Vala or just another Ainu with more strength than others may have had?

Personally, I don't think he could be considered a Vala. The Valar were sent to Arda to battle the evils of Melkor. Melkor didn't battle himself. So I say that Melkor was just an Ainu but one that had taken physical form earlier and was granted more strength.


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## ChunkyLover53 (Feb 10, 2003)

the book does say he's a vala, so i'm gon have to disagree with you on this...


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## Niniel (Feb 11, 2003)

I don't think a Vala is necesssarily an Ainu with more power. A Vala is just an Ainu that went into ME. So, because Melkor went into ME, he should be caled a Vala. However even the other Valar don't seem to like the idea of being of the same race as Melkor. Remember Feanor, when the Valar asked him to unlock the Silmarils:


> 'And is he (Melkor) not Vala as they,'said his thought, 'and does he not understand their hearts? Yea, a thief shall reveal thieves!' Then he cried aloud: 'This thing I will not do of free will. But if the Valar will constrain me, then shall I know indeed that Melkor is of their kindred.'


 Later Manwe says:


> 'Vala he is, thou saist. Then thou hast sworn in vain, for none of the Valar canst thou overcome now or ever within the halls of Ea, not though Eru whom thou namest had made thee thrice greater than thou art.'


 So the other Valar don't like to be associated with Melkor, but in the other hand Manwe is right that Feanor cannot overcome Melkor and his oath was in vain, so it seems that Melkor is a Vala after all.


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## Confusticated (Feb 11, 2003)

The Guild of Ost-in-Edhil had a debate on this topic here.
That was (still is as far as I know) just a debate for their guild, but perhaps if you contact Gothmog he will open it for everyone?

I don't have a set belief about when Melkor ceased to be counted as a Vala. I am even open to that it may have happend when he was thrown into the void.

The Silmarillion (I have not read up elsewhere with this question in mind) gives me the idea that Valar = Powers of the World. As soon as Melkor entered the World, being a Power of the World, being a Vala - he started trouble. He meddled right away in all that way done. In my opinion Vala does not have to mean good. I am of the belief that melkor entered the world to inflict evil upon it, and that this had been his purpose before there were any Valar. So, in my opinion, Melkor was evil when the order of the Valar was established (him being among that group). He remained a power (though his power was lessend) in the world until he was cast out of it.


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## Gothmog (Feb 11, 2003)

The debate in Ost-in-Edhil that Nom has given the link to is now open to all.


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 11, 2003)

Splitting hairs, are we? 

I personally cannot grasp the problematics of this question. To me Melkor is a Vala, even though he is not counted among the "Lords of the West", which is because he fell to evil.

None of the citations provided in the guild of OiE doesn't make me doubt that either. Oh well.


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## ChunkyLover53 (Feb 12, 2003)

well, what is he then? just an Ainu?

i believe that Valar are mainly just the Ainur that took part on Ea...thus, i think Melkor was one...But then maybe it's just a title given from the Eldar anyways, since in fact Valaquenta was their written beliefs, kinda like a bible. I guess it just matters what you take in as Valar's meaning...I think it was like a birthright is for us...if we're born in a country or w/e, we are said to be of that country...American, Indian, Chinese, French, etc. We are not given much of a choice of where we come from, so I think that Since the Ainur went into Ea, they are called Valar. Even if any rebel, they would still be called Valar. Is not a rebellious American still called an American? The only problem with my analogy is that the Ainur chose to become Valar, or maybe they didn't, they could have just chosen to take part on Ea, but were all called Vala by the Eldar.

Then the other loop-holes i got r that they called themselves Valar also, so, i dunno...just trying to add my input on this...


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## Confusticated (Mar 16, 2003)

Finrod who is named (In the Athrabeth) as the most wise of the exiled Noldor, and who was born in Aman and has spoke with the Valar, says around the middle of the first age that Morgoth is a Vala.

from HoMe V, Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth:


> 'Yes,' said Finrod. 'We say this, and the Valar we know, and they say the same, all save one. But which, think you, is more likely to lie: those who make themselves humble, or he that exalts himself?'



From Published Silmarillion, Valaquenta:


> Melkor is counted no longer among the Valar, and his name is not spoken upon Earth.



To which point in time does this refer? A time when 1) Melkor's name is not spoken and 2) a time when Melkor is not counted as a Vala. In that conversation with Andreth (took place around year 409), Finrod not only counts Morgoth as a Vala but also names Melkor in the conversation. The time that this quote refers to had not yet come.


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## EOWYN OF ROHAN (Mar 17, 2003)

In the index of names of the sil:



> Melkor: The Quenya name for the great rebellious Vala (...)



I think he is still a Vala although he is not counted among the Valar because of his turning to malice from the beginning.

This is just my opinion, I'm no Tolkien expert but a reader


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## Kalmanluin (Mar 18, 2003)

It is obvious to me that you did not read or do not seem to understand the Silmarillion, because if you did you would know that (1) Melkor was of the Valar and (2) the other Valar were not sent to Middle Earth to combat Melkor but to create Middle Earth; to create the land and the sea and trees and stars. Eru allowed those who chose to go there for the creation of the world. Melkor, since he was the most powerful of all the Ainur, and thus more knowledge and thus more free will, wanted dominion over all things. Of course this was all permitted by Eru, for Melkor was evil; perhaps not from the very beginning and not until he entered Ea, where his greed and jealousy became full wrought, but Melkor was evil, and that was permitted by Eru, for there cannot be good without evil, there cannot be one without the other.

The other Valar entered Ea to create, to protect, and to maintain; Melkor could have done the same but he chose not to. Melkor wanted to be lord over all things.


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## Melko Belcha (Mar 18, 2003)

I always took that Melkor was one of the fourteen original Valar. But after his rebellion in Arda and Tulkas entered the world Melkor was no longer counted a Valar. Tulkas became the fourtenth. Still the Valar are the most powerful of the Ainur to enter Arda so you could still call Melkor a Valar.


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## Feanorian (Mar 18, 2003)

Melkor is definitly still a Vala although he does lose some of his power he is still a Vala, not just a Vala but the most powerful of them all, as it is said in the Sil


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## elf boy (Mar 19, 2003)

He was a Vala but it seems to me that the Sil said he was no longer counted among the Valar.


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## Niniel (Jun 17, 2003)

In the Lost Road it says:


> Ilúvatar designed the World, and revealed his design to the Powers; and of these some he set to be Valar, Lords of the World and goverors of the things that are therein. But Alkar (= Melkor), who had journeyed alone in the Void before the World, seeking to be free, desired the World to be a kingdom unto himself. Therefore he descended into it like a falling fire; and he made war upon the Lords, his brethren.


So this seems to say that the Valar are the Lords of the World, and that Melkor was not a Lord, thus not a Vala. But of course the Lost Road does not describe Tolkien's final ideas on the matter.


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## Glomund (Jun 17, 2003)

How about we call him an ex-Vala. He was one of the original, sometimes said the most powerful, or co-equal as the most powerful among them. So even tho he became Vala non Grata he was still powerful, and just because he was no longer counted among the Valar who dwelt in Aman, by the definition in the Silmarilion

Valar= Those with Power

he certainly qualifies, since for awhile he was able to thwart the designs of the rest of the club


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## Grond (Jun 23, 2003)

Just for the record.


> _from The Silmarillion, The Valaquenta_
> These were their names in the Elvish tongue as it was spoken in Valinor, though they have other names in the speech of the Elves in Middle-earth, and their names among Men are manifold. The names of the Lords in due order are: Manwë, Ulmo, Aulë, Oromë, Mandos, Lórien, and Tulkas; and the names of the Queens are: Varda, Yavanna, Nienna, Estë, Vairë, Vána, and Nessa. *Melkor is counted no longer among the Valar, and his name is not spoken upon Earth.*


This quote makes it clear to me that (at least in their very beginning) Melkor was definately a Vala.


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## jimmyboy (Jul 1, 2003)

My understanding is this:
The Valar are the arch-angels, the highest order of created beings. They were the ones entrusted with the creation of the world.

After them are the Maiar, a lower order of angels, of which are Sauron, Gandalf, and the other wizards, Melian, and possbily even Bombadil.

Melkor was a co-equal with Manwe as the highest ranking arch-angels, and I believe he was also called the most powerful of all.

In short that's who these beings are, and what their order is. Melkor was/is of the Valar, the arch-angels, yet was banished for his evil deeds and ambitions. Sill, he is essentially what he is, and that is that he is one of the highest angels created, regardless what you label him or name him. 

For comparison, Feanor was an elf from the beginning, and though he was hated for his horrible deeds, and though he was banished from the Undying Lands, he was still an elf, of the same race that he was created in. See what I mean...?


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