# What is Sauron?



## Miss Rainbow (May 12, 2004)

I have a question about What species is Sauron himself; is he a cross between an orc and an elf, or just an evil elf, or just an orc, or does he represent "Satan himself," or what....? Thank you very much


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## Starbrow (May 12, 2004)

Sauron is a Maia, which is a spirit that has less power than the Valar(gods). He once belonged to the Maiar of Aule.


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## Gothmog (May 13, 2004)

To take Starbrow's answer a little deeper, Sauron was in fact of the same "species" as the Valar. The Valar and the Maiar were both Ainur who existed before Arda was. They were the first off-spring of the thought of Eru and helped in the creation of Arda by taking part in the "Muisc of the Ainur" in which the whole story of the world was set out.

After this music Arda was created by the word of Eru and some of the Ainur came into Arda to be the powers of the world and the guides of history. The more powerful Ainur that came into the world were called the Valar while the rest were called Maiar. Sauron was one of the lesser spirits. 

Sauron does not represent "Satan himself" for two reasons. One is that the Lord of the Rings is not an allegory and therefore no charater is a direct representaion of God, Satan or any other being. The second reason is that Sauron in only a lesser dark lord. The greater such being was his master Morgoth who is mentioned in the Lord of the Rings by Legolas when they see the Balrog in the Mines of Moria.

Hope that helps.


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## Miss Rainbow (May 17, 2004)

Ok, if Sauron is a less, powerful spirit, then who, or what spirit is the most powerful of all of them in Middle Earth?-I'm talking the evil spirits.
Thank you very much. It is not Morgoth, is it?-Or is it another one mentioned in another book of Tolkien's?


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## Starbrow (May 17, 2004)

Yes it is Morgoth, also known as Melkor.


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## Miss Rainbow (May 20, 2004)

*Morgoth being the most powerful*

 SO THEN, MORGOTH IS THE MOST POWERFUL, EVIL, SPIRITUAL VILLIAN OF THEM ALL??!! Then what is Morgoth?-Is he the same species as Sauron, only more powerful, and more evil?-Or is he of another species? I checked the book, "The Silmarillion" from the librairy; does that book talk about what kind of creature Morgoth is?-And everything about him? Thank you, and Jesus Loves you.


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## Turin (May 20, 2004)

Morgoth is a higher being than Sauron, Morgoth is one of the Valar(or gods). Sauron is a Maia, they are a like servants of the Valar, so yes Morgoth is a greater being than Sauron. 
The Sil will help you with this, if you can get past its confusingness .


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## Flame of Udûn (May 21, 2004)

I think she should read _The Lord of the Rings_ first.


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## Turin (May 21, 2004)

I don't know if you have read LotR, if you haven't, it would be good to. If you have, read them again . It'll give you a better understanding of ME that you need before reading the Sil.


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## Eledhwen (May 27, 2004)

If you have read the Bible, you will have no difficulty with The Silmarillion; there are many similarities of form, in that it is a collection of 'historical' stories beginning with The Creation (not like the Bible's one) and the downfall of the most powerful 'angel' Melkor (later known as Morgoth). Indeed Tolkien tried to get the Sil published when he was being pushed for a sequel to The Hobbit, and only got on with writing Lord of the Rings when his understanding that there was little hope of getting the Sil published changed to 'no hope'.

Having said that, if you haven't read the Lord of the Rings, there are so many adventures in there that have, by necessity I suppose, been excluded from the films, that you wouldn't get bored. Apart from that, it is superb literature.


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## Kelonus (May 28, 2004)

What are the abilities of a Vala and Maia? What powers and such? How are they different, yet the same?


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## Isthir (May 30, 2004)

If my memory serves me correctly, wasn't Melkor _and _Manwë equals in power?

-Isthir


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## Gothmog (May 30, 2004)

Not quite. In the "Valaquenta" we find this


> Last of all is set the name of Melkor, He who arises in Might. But that name he has forfeited; and the Noldor, who among the Elves suffered most from his malice, will not utter it, and they name him Morgoth, the Dark Enemy of the World. Great might was given to him by Ilúvatar, *and he was coëval with Manwë*.


However, in looking in the dictionary the definition of "coëval" is :- _adj._ having the same age or duration or date of origin.

When we look at the AINULINDALË we find some comments about the power of Melkor.


> But now Ilúvatar sat and hearkened, and for a great while it seemed good to him, for in the music there were no flaws. But as the theme progressed, it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Ilúvatar; for he sought therein to increase the power and glory of the part assigned to himself. *To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge,* and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren. He had gone often alone into the void, and he was impatient of its emptiness. Yet he found not the Fire, for it is with Ilúvatar. But being alone he had begun to conceive thoughts of his own unlike those of his brethren.


And


> Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, *and mightiest among them is Melkor*; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'



So in fact Melkor was *More* powerful than Manwë. However, due to the way he wasted his power in trying to control Arda and the creatures he perverted, he became noticably weaker and became of lesser effective power than Manwë.


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## Isthir (Jun 1, 2004)

Thank you, as always, for the clarification Gothmog.


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## Nkenobi (Jun 14, 2004)

I am curious...

Mogroth is more powerfull than Sauron... but I heard somewhere that sauron killed Mogroth... did that happen? or is it false or what?


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## Aulë (Jun 14, 2004)

Nkenobi said:


> I am curious...
> 
> Mogroth is more powerfull than Sauron... but I heard somewhere that sauron killed Mogroth... did that happen? or is it false or what?


Nope, that certainly isn't true. Sauron was the lieutenant of Morgoth's forces.
Morgoth was captured in the War of Wrath by the Valar and its armies, and imprisoned in the Void. During that same war, Sauron was found by one of the Valar and given the opportunity to repent his sins, but he obviously didn't- and took over Morgoth's role as the leader of evil in Middle Earth.


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## Nkenobi (Jun 14, 2004)

ok, I C now, thanks


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## Ithrynluin (Jun 14, 2004)

Rog said:


> Morgoth was captured in the War of Wrath by the Valar and its armies, and imprisoned in the Void. During that same war, Sauron was found by one of the Valar


Just a teeny tiny correction. It is uncertain whether any of the Valar themselves took part in the War of Wrath. Eönwë was the leader of the forces of the West, and it was he who offered Sauron to return to Valinor and be judged for his deeds by the gods. It is said that his penance was genuine at first...


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## Eledhwen (Jun 14, 2004)

I had not heard that - unless it's a thread in a HoME book I haven't read yet. Morgoth was v.powerful, but evil, in rebellion against the creator takes its toll on the power of the one who perpetrates it, and Morgoth became weaker. His eventual fate was to be permanently chained.

I believe the whole purpose of The Ring of Power was to somehow contain and preserve Sauron's power against a similar fate. Essentially Saruman too was of the same order as Sauron, but had no Ring of Power. I wonder if he would have been so easily subdued if he had managed to learn the secrets of Sauron's Ring lore.


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## Ithrynluin (Jun 14, 2004)

Eledhwen said:


> Essentially Saruman too was of the same order as Sauron, but had no Ring of Power. I wonder if he would have been so easily subdued if he had managed to learn the secrets of Sauron's Ring lore.


Except that one (not One!  ) Ring he wore on his finger, presumably of his own making, and presumably a 'ring of power'! I think this ring of his had a part in commanding all his subjects, and extending his will.


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## glirhuin (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: Morgoth being the most powerful*

Content of this post has been deleted.
Personal attacks are not permitted on this forum
Gothmog


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## Miss Rainbow (Jun 23, 2004)

I am sorry to hear about the personal attack from....What is her or his name?
I did not mean to offend anybody....I did get an angry PM on my whatever you call it-profile??? But I know that Sauron is a very evil being, and my guess is that probably Morgoth(Melkor) himself might be able to come back; what do you think? He would be able to be destroyed though, right?


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## Eledhwen (Jun 24, 2004)

Miss Rainbow said:


> I did not mean to offend anybody.


Don't let it stop you giving your opinion, which was more scholarly than the attack that followed.


> my guess is that probably Morgoth(Melkor) himself might be able to come back; what do you think? He would be able to be destroyed though, right?


There are hints of similarity between this tale and the downfall of Satan in the Bible. The Bible's bad guy does get another go at causing mayhem. However, Tolkien never said that Melkor would be able to come back. He had already had one reprieve and blew it.


Gorthaur said:


> Except that one (not One! ) Ring he wore on his finger, presumably of his own making, and presumably a 'ring of power'! I think this ring of his had a part in commanding all his subjects, and extending his will.


Interesting! I had only really considered Saruman's bewitching tongue, but I now remember reading about that ring. I wonder if it was meant to be understood as a 'ring to bind them'?


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