# If you were Sauron, would you had made the Ring?



## Ithrynluin (Mar 6, 2003)

*If you were Sauron, would you have made the Ring?*

Put yourself in Sauron's shoes (iron boots?). Would you have made the One Ring?

PROs: He enhanced his power immensely, and did great evil with it (drowning of Numenor), and also corrupted a whole lot of people (e.g. Saruman, Gollum...) and much evil came out of that as well.

CONs: He poured a part of his native power into the ring, and he risked the ring being lost or taken from him (which really happened).

What actions would you take if you were Sauron at about SA 1600?


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## BlackCaptain (Mar 6, 2003)

I wouldnt have done it:

In the begining, there are two great powers; Manwe and Melkor. Manwe has his servants, Melkor has his. When Melkor is cast into the void, it is up to Sauron to take complete control over middle earth, since Melkor can't. If he pours the majority of his power into this Ring, then he runs the risk of having the majority of his strength lost. Wich he did. And by running this risk, he also runs the risk of losing everything Melkor and him have ever worked for. *In my opinion*


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## Elendil3119 (Mar 6, 2003)

> PROs: He enhanced his power immensely, and did great evil with it (drowning of Numenor), and also corrupted a whole lot of people (e.g. Saruman, Gollum...) and much evil came out of that as well.



How did he enhance his power by creating the Ring? If it does NOT enhance power, I would not have created it simply because it is a stupid and unnecessary risk to take. If it DOES enhance power, I think if I were Sauron, I would have created it out of greed.


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## Niniel (Mar 6, 2003)

> But to achieve this (i.e. domination of ME) he had been obliged to let a great part of his own inherent poer pass in to the One Ring. While he wore it, his power was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not diminished. Unless some other seized it an became possessed of it. If that happened, the new possessor could (if sufficiently strong and heroic by nature) challenge Sauron, become master of all that he had learned or done since the making of the One Ring, and so overthrow him and usurp his place. This was the essential weakness he had intoduced into his situation in his effort (largely unsuccessful) to enslave the Elves, and in his desire to establish a control over the minds and wills of his servants. There was another weakness: if the One Ring was actually unmade, annihilated, then its power would be dissolved, Sauron's own being would be diminished to vanishing point, and he would be reduced to a shadow, a mere memory of malicious will. But that he never contemplated or feared.


 Letters of Tolkien, no 131.
I think Sauron was stupid not to contemplate the possibility of the destruction or loss of the Ring; after all, Morgoth was destroyed, so why could Sauron not be overthrown? If I had been in his shoes I would not have made the Ring; there must have been other options less dangerous (even if less effective).


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## redline2200 (Mar 6, 2003)

I would have made the ring. You say the cons are the possibility of losing it, but when you think about it, it was Sauron's fault that he lost it anyway. He has proven over and over again that he is to hasty, and if he hadn't of shown himself and his army in the first place, then he would not have been annihilated at Dagorlad.


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## Arvedui (Mar 6, 2003)

If I was Sauron in SA 1600, I would have forged the Ring in an attempt to take complete control over all 'races' of Middle-earth, including the Elves. That would have been my main goal. And I would have had so much pride in myself that I would never have thought of the possibility that I could loose it.

Both Morgoth and Sauron have one common fault: their pride. And that also was the main reason for their downfall.


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## Jesse (Mar 6, 2003)

Personally,
NO. I would not have made the ring. Putting all my power in a metal object is not only stupid, but it is pointless. If the Ring was destroyed, all my power would be gone! Where's the fun in that?


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## FrankSinatra (Mar 6, 2003)

*Depends*

Its like you have a £1,000,000 (or $1,000,000 if you like) and someone offers you ten times more than that for giving u a ring that you could lose, and if you did lose it, you lost all your money.

Would you take the risk or stick with your million?


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## Goldberry (Mar 6, 2003)

Well, if I were going to put all my power into a ring, it would be a really fabulous ring, with lots of diamonds or other precious stones, and not a plain gold ring!


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## LadyDernhelm (Mar 6, 2003)

Aaaah, but this ring has magically-appearing script!  Way cool!

Kind of offtopic: did you know that they have a real Ring you can buy that is plain until put to fire- then the characters show up. Of course, it costs nearly $1,000, but . . ..


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## Hawkblaze (Mar 6, 2003)

Just a question...Did Sauron actually use the ring to drown Numenor? Didn't the Rings of Power come into existence after Numenor was destroyed and Elendil and his sons went to Middle Earth? I know Elendil or his sons didn't actually have a Ring, but the Numenoreans that had them were living in ME, right?


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## Ithrynluin (Mar 6, 2003)

The One Ring was forged around Second Age 1600. The Second Age lasted around 3900 years. Numenor was drowned towards the end of the SA.
There is no reason to assume that Sauron left the One behind when he was "taken captive" by the Ar-Pharazon. He certainly used the ring to sway the King and the majority of the population to evil.


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## olorin the maia (Mar 6, 2003)

Sauron had no direct part (meaning, his Ring didn't cause it to happen) in the foundering of Numenor. He bewitched the king into sailing West, against the Ban of the Valar.
Numenor was drowned when Ar-Pharazon, last King of Numenor, attempted to make war upon the Powers of the World in the Undying Lands. If you read Akallabeth , which is included in The Silmarillion , much will become clear.
Sauron left his Ring in Barad-dur when he was taken to Numenor by Ar-Pharazon. His spirit, bereft of the human shape in which he had long walked, returned to Barad-dur after Numenor was swallowed up by the waves. It "...passed as a shadow and a black wind over the sea..." to Mordor, where "...he took up again his great Ring in Barad-dur..."


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## Ithrynluin (Mar 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by olorin the maia _
> *Sauron had no direct part (meaning, his Ring didn't cause it to happen) in the foundering of Numenor. He bewitched the king into sailing West, against the Ban of the Valar.
> Sauron left his Ring in Barad-dur when he was taken to Numenor by Ar-Pharazon. His spirit, bereft of the human shape in which he had long walked, returned to Barad-dur after Numenor was swallowed up by the waves. It "...passed as a shadow and a black wind over the sea..." to Mordor, where "...he took up again his great Ring in Barad-dur..." *



Despite the "took up his great Ring" part, I still think he had the Ring with him in Numenor. He took it up AGAIN, which could mean that he simply started using it again, after a short time of "not using it". I sure wouldn't leave my most prized possession somewhere during my absence, leave it up for grabs to the orcs or whoever else had access to Barad-dur.
The Ring was made to dominate the free peoples - Sauron definitely used it to influence the Numenoreans and corrupt them. That is just my opinion.


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## olorin the maia (Mar 6, 2003)

I agree the semantics of the passage do leave the matter somewhat open to interpretation. The Author was exceedingly good at leaving things open in this manner.
But it is mighty difficult to imagine a spirit borne upon a dark wind carrying a Ring along. Even if the spirit happened to be a powerful Maia. 
I believe the Ring was made to dominate the users of the Elven Rings. And thus, the world.
When he "wore the One Ring, [Sauron] could perceive all the things that were done by means of the lesser rings, and could see and govern the very thoughts of those that wore them." 
Sauron lusted for power and to be lord of Middle-earth. The Ring was but one means of achieving that end.


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## Arvedui (Mar 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Hawkblaze _
> * I know Elendil or his sons didn't actually have a Ring, but the Numenoreans that had them were living in ME, right? *


The Númenoreans that had rings, lived in Middle-earth. There were three of them, and they were of those people that were called the Black Númenoreans. They were of those that were followers of Ar-Pharazon. Those three turned later into Ringwraiths aka Nazgûl.


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## Ithrynluin (Mar 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by olorin the maia _
> *
> But it is mighty difficult to imagine a spirit borne upon a dark wind carrying a Ring along. Even if the spirit happened to be a powerful Maia.
> I believe the Ring was made to dominate the users of the Elven Rings. And thus, the world.
> ...



I don't think we should question how a spirit can carry a physical object. How did Gandalf still have Narya and Glamdring after his "rebirth"?
The One was made to dominate all other rings, and all other rings were made for ALL the races of Middle Earth. Sauron of course knew that the Elves were the mightiest of all beings in ME, and he wanted to dominate them the most, but realized that ensnaring the Elves was far from easy. He then distributed the rings to Men and Dwarves, which is proof enough that he wanted to dominate ALL the races "and thus, the world.

From Letter 211:



> ... Though reduced to 'a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind', I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying of the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largley depended. ...


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## Celebthôl (Mar 7, 2003)

This is a very philosophical (sp) question, for we know what happens to the ring, but if you were asked this question without knowing the future of the ring (i.e. it getting cut from Saurons hand etc) then you would most likely answer differently, i.e. if all the information you were given was, 

There are 19 magic rings and to rule them all you need to make an item with which to control the through would you make a ring?
(or something like that)

you most likely would say yes!

its only because we know the history of the ring that we say it is a stupid idea...

Thôl


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## olorin the maia (Mar 8, 2003)

Gandalf had Narya and Glamdring with him because he never lost them. His spirit left, and then returned to his broken body upon Celebdil, where Gwaihir found him, returned to life.
The Rings of Power were made by and for the Elves, not for the other races of the Earth. Celebrimbor had no intention of giving Rings of Power to any other than of Elven, and likely Noldorin, race.
Sauron made war upon the Ring-makers of Hollin, and stole the most powerful rings they made, except for the Three, which he never touched. He gave of the Rings he stole to Men and Dwarves, seeking to dominate them. He sought ever in vain for the Three.


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## Celebithil (Mar 8, 2003)

I would have made the One Ring because its power was such that most anyone couldn't destroy it. Sauron believed they would try to use it for themselves and remember even Frodo wasn't going to destroy the Ring Gollum did it.


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## olorin the maia (Mar 9, 2003)

I can just imagine Sauron phoning Morgoth (long distance, of course, and probably collect) and explaining the circumstances of his ultimate defeat:

"It seemed like a good idea at the time....."

But seriously, Celebthol and Celebithil are correct. The Noldor were the first to make Rings of Power. Sauron made the One to dominate the Elven Rings, and thus the world.
It never entered his mind that the One could (would!) be taken from him, and such was his lust for power, that possiblilty probably wouldn't have deterred him, anyway.
Hindsight is 20-20.


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## Ithrynluin (Mar 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by olorin the maia _
> *Sauron made the One to dominate the Elven Rings, and thus the world.
> *



Not ONLY the Elven rings, MOSTLY the Elves. The Elves were the most powerful creatures and the most likely to put up a good fight against him. He knew that the One Ring he was going to make had to be a thing of supreme potency, in order to overpower the Elven rings and enslave their bearers.


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## olorin the maia (Mar 9, 2003)

Sauron certainly wished to subjugate the Eldar, as you say. He hated them more than any others because they were the most powerful and beautiful of the Children of Iluvatar. He hated and feared the Men of Numenor, too, but found them easier to bring to his will. And we know that his attempts to dominate the Dwarves did not turn out as he desired.
Not to put too fine a point on it, in "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" is the passage:
"Now the Elves made many rings; but _secretly Sauron made One Ring to rule all the others_ (italics mine), and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly to it and to last only as long as it too should last."
Thus Sauron's plot to rule and dominate the Free Peoples of Middle-earth was brought to fruition with the forging of the One Ring.


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## spirit (Mar 11, 2003)

HOW MANT RINGS WERE THER AND HE COULD CONTROL THEM ALLLLL??


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## Lantarion (Mar 11, 2003)

There were possibly hundreds of magical rings; and although Sauron could command all of them, he only really needed to control the Rings of Power. He could control them because he helped make the Rings of Power, and being a sorceror of a very powerful sort (I won't even guess what that means exactly) he bound the Rings of Power to the One Ring that he made, and therefore whenever they were "online", that is to say in use by their wielders, he could control them (and possibly their wearers).
But the chance of the One Ring actually becoming destroyed or lost, as seems to be the main argument to not makinbg the Ring, was so minute that there realy was no actual risk: as was said it was Sauron's own fault that the Ring was cut from his hand, he didn't need to actually dismount and kill isildur with his sword at all. So I would make it, because my powers would be so drastically enhanced.


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## Theoden_king (Mar 11, 2003)

Why didn't Sauron work on destroying Mt. Doom or something? possibly leaving an army of Urak-hai around it? if he was aware that the ring could be destroyed in Mt. Doom why did he leave it unguarded?


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## Celebthôl (Mar 11, 2003)

because it never occured to him that anybody who gained the One Ring would wish to destroy it, he was already under the rings power and because he could never bring himself to destroy it, he believed that others wouldnt either.

Thôl


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## LadyDernhelm (Mar 11, 2003)

Yeah, true. It is stated more than once in the books that Frodo and Sam had a fighting chance because Sauron would never guess that anyone would destroy it of their own volition. As a matter of fact, it's nearly impossible. Frodo DIDN'T destroy the Ring - Gollum did. And I don't know about you, but somehow I'm thinking that he didn't quite mean to...;-)


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## Ithrynluin (Mar 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Celebthôl _
> *because it never occured to him that anybody who gained the One Ring would wish to destroy it, he was already under the rings power and because he could never bring himself to destroy it, he believed that others wouldnt either. *



That is one reason. Another one is that Sauron couldn't possibly conceive the idea of someone passing unnoticed through his higly guarded realm.


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## FrankSinatra (Mar 11, 2003)

*No*

Where did you get the idea that Gollum didnt at all mean to destroy the ring?


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## HelplessModAddi (Mar 11, 2003)

I would have made SOMETHING, but not a gold ring, especially considering the rest of my apparel. I probably would have made something that cannot be physically removed from my body without destroying me first - like an "Artificial Rib of Power" or something like that. Isiuldur (sp?) wouldn't have stood a chance getting that.


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## YayGollum (Mar 15, 2003)

Thank you, FrankSinatra person, even though I think you were being sarcastic. I would love to point out that we have no idea what Gollum was thinking at the time. Or Smeagol. Of course, most people would love to believe that he wasn't thinking ---> "Thank goodness I never took those dancing lessons!"  Okay. sorry. That's all. If I was Sauron, I'd have made a One Pez Dispenser Of Power.


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## Burb (Mar 17, 2003)

*Re: Depends*



> _Originally posted by FrankSinatra _
> *Its like you have a £1,000,000 (or $1,000,000 if you like) and someone offers you ten times more than that for giving u a ring that you could lose, and if you did lose it, you lost all your money.
> 
> Would you take the risk or stick with your million? *



id take the ring and the millions, but id keep the thing safe and i wouldnt wear it anywhere!


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## pgt (Mar 18, 2003)

With the benefit of hindsight being 20/20 I think it's the smart move was to forge the ring in retrospect.

My logic goes thus: It's a given he would have lost the battle at the last alliance regardless. The ring continues while he essentially turned to vapor. That rings very existence sustained him in his 'whispy' years. If he hadn't forged that ring - who's to say he would have been able to return to any semblance of power at all in the 3rd age or ever? Purely my opinion - I have nothing specific to back that up. 

To summarize, my opinion is making the ring may be akin to 'not putting all your eggs into a single basket' as well as the 'whole is greater than the sum of the parts'.

---

No ring - what would he have hoped to accomplish - play tricky games of deceit w/ the elves ad nauseum? 

---

Oh and don't forget, while it didn't work w/ the elves and did little w/ the dwarves - it gave him notably political sway over 9 leaders of men 1 of whom crushed the northern half of the remaining former Numenorean kingdoms, Arnor. Sure the ring ticked off the elves but he had to show his hand sooner or later anyway and after the last alliance - what threat were they anyway?

I think the real mistake was in the logic of dominating the 3 or the 7 and the mismanagement of the 9. Those 9 could have been continually used to always maintain tight grip on 9 disparate kingdoms of man (including Gondor itself perhaps - something he sorta made up for w/ the Palantir). But ultimately they became trinkets to hold over 9 fallible errand boys. 

OK I 've rambled enough!
-cya
-T


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## Jesse (Mar 20, 2003)

I wouldn't have made the One Ring. It's pointless. People loose things all the time. Especially wedding rings. Take a look at how many wedding rings go down the shower drain! The One Ring was bound to get lost.


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