# Melkor Evil nature or Will of sacrifice



## Risdalon (Jun 4, 2021)

Melkor, knew his knowledge and power, of course, as power he knew his responsibility, He saw all creatures is weaker than him, he choose His self to step as a destroyer or evil counterpart of good wiil, because he knew, he can alone handle the light of darkness, he alone can handle this task, because Eru is already a light, so therfore bt means of His as melkor, he alone imprisoned the Evil and darkness fate to his own body and die this evilness, with, as a sacrifice for a new beginning...somehow, some misunderstood him, alone...


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jun 4, 2021)

Welcome to TTF, Risdalon!

I've moved your thread to The Hall of Fire, our forum for more philosophical discussions.

If you'd like to introduce yourself, and describe your particular interests, we have a New Members forum too, just for that. 😊


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## Risdalon (Jun 4, 2021)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Welcome to TTF, Risdalon!
> 
> I've moved your thread to The Hall of Fire, our forum for more philosophical discussions.
> 
> If you'd like to introduce yourself, and describe your particular interests, we have a New Members forum too, just for that. 😊


Thank you Sir, Im a Filipino, and I am...to thank you again 

No Valar can handle the purist evil, therefore Melkor do knew His task...He who had the power handles the great evil, He who is pure in Divinity...Even Eru knew it... because Eru had also no control of it..


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## 1stvermont (Jun 4, 2021)

Risdalon said:


> Melkor, knew his knowledge and power, of course, as power he knew his responsibility, He saw all creatures is weaker than him, he choose His self to step as a destroyer or evil counterpart of good wiil, because he knew, he can alone handle the light of darkness, he alone can handle this task, because Eru is already a light, so therfore bt means of His as melkor, he alone imprisoned the Evil and darkness fate to his own body and die this evilness, with, as a sacrifice for a new beginning...somehow, some misunderstood him, alone...



That is a very interesting perspective but if I am understanding it correctly I am not sure this is in accord with Tolkien's view. Melkor is a fallen being he brought disharmony when Eru desired harmony. It came from his own lust to be greatest and his desire for power [generally not a good thing in Tolkien's world] not some counterbalance to what is good. Melkor's actions are not his responsibility but an* evil* to be resisted by all free peoples and Valar.



Risdalon said:


> Thank you Sir, Im a Filipino, and I am...to thank you again
> 
> No Valar can handle the purist evil, therefore Melkor do knew His task...He who had the power handles the great evil, He who is pure in Divinity...Even Eru knew it... because Eru had also no control of it..



Melkor did not follow Eru's purpose or original intent for him, he rebelled against it went his own way. Eru allows free will and so allowed this to happen.


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## Miguel (Jun 4, 2021)

Melko wanted to be dictator.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jun 4, 2021)

Dude, I read "Miku" there 😂

(Yeah -- I was watching Miku videos 😓)

Sorry -- off topic. Carry on.

(I'd rather have her as dictator, though . 😁)


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## Risdalon (Jun 4, 2021)

Miguel said:


> Melko wanted to be dictator.


So is the Eru, is a dictator of Destiny, otherwise this tablet of destiny use only by means of something is crucial...well, every sprout had its own beginning, it depends how it handles its end, or else continue...equal is the answer of solution itself, by means of good and evil, positive and negative...As the beginning itself or prime, Eru knew what would happen to him, So He created Melkor a powerful to be his counterpart, do you think, this is not dictatorship of destiny? It easy to conclude things beyond the limitations but it is hard to achieve truth, but only those who exist from the beginning...most of people choose to be good, but to understand the very balance, is to follow the order, the law of nature..the theme is the law of nature itself...only the DJ knew its composition. In every world, division created is...finally, melkor knew its end, as well as Eru...but problem still exist, to those two light...that means immortal. To scape from destiny is impossible, but only to destroy the light itself, thats why melkor do the same...melkor is part of the balance of life...to end the problem, is the same you end the solution...


Miguel said:


> Melko wanted to be dictator.


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## Miguel (Jun 5, 2021)

Risdalon said:


> So is the Eru, is a dictator of Destiny, otherwise this tablet of destiny use only by means of something is crucial...well, every sprout had its own beginning, it depends how it handles its end, or else continue...equal is the answer of solution itself, by means of good and evil, positive and negative...As the beginning itself or prime, Eru knew what would happen to him, So He created Melkor a powerful to be his counterpart, do you think, this is not dictatorship of destiny? It easy to conclude things beyond the limitations but it is hard to achieve truth, but only those who exist from the beginning...most of people choose to be good, but to understand the very balance, is to follow the order, the law of nature..the theme is the law of nature itself...only the DJ knew its composition. In every world, division created is...finally, melkor knew its end, as well as Eru...but problem still exist, to those two light...that means immortal. To scape from destiny is impossible, but only to destroy the light itself, thats why melkor do the same...melkor is part of the balance of life...to end the problem, is the same you end the solution...



Yes.


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## Risdalon (Jun 5, 2021)

Miguel said:


> Yes.


The truth is...gifts in every being, Valar, Ainur, to the lowest rank, lowest but part of the strength of the tree...gifts is untold, power is not mention from the beginning, how you be handle it...the point is...it is holder, who discovers the true light itself...either by purpose or self interest.



Risdalon said:


> So is the Eru, is a dictator of Destiny, otherwise this tablet of destiny use only by means of something is crucial...well, every sprout had its own beginning, it depends how it handles its end, or else continue...equal is the answer of solution itself, by means of good and evil, positive and negative...As the beginning itself or prime, Eru knew what would happen to him, So He created Melkor a powerful to be his counterpart, do you think, this is not dictatorship of destiny? It easy to conclude things beyond the limitations but it is hard to achieve truth, but only those who exist from the beginning...most of people choose to be good, but to understand the very balance, is to follow the order, the law of nature..the theme is the law of nature itself...only the DJ knew its composition. In every world, division created is...finally, melkor knew its end, as well as Eru...but problem still exist, to those two light...that means immortal. To scape from destiny is impossible, but only to destroy the light itself, thats why melkor do the same...melkor is part of the balance of life...to end the problem, is the same you end the solution...


Nevertheless, The existence of Eru and Ainurs is the Spirit realm, flowing to the law of nature, Ea the form of physical world., Either, Eru is one of the first 3 ambassadors..to form in physical


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## Alcuin (Jun 6, 2021)

I think Eru desires that creatures with Free Will may choose to worship him and follow his lead. The risk that this entails is that some of those creatures will rebel, they will use their Free Will to disobey and dishonor Eru. He apparently thinks the reward is worth that risk. 

The Problem of Evil, which you have highlighted here, Risdalon, is intimately intertwined with the issue of Free Will. The typical argument against Free Will in light (if we may use that word in this context) of the Problem of Evil goes like this. _If Eru is all-knowing and all-powerful and all-good, then he knew ahead of time [note the pun] that Melkor and his followers would commit evil. If he is all-powerful, though, then he should have either not created Melkor and his followers, or else he should have created them so that they did not fall. Otherwise, he is either not all-powerful or all-good._

Let us begin with the assumptions that Eru is Good (with a capital “G”: he is the ultimate Good), and that he knows all things, real (e.g., what outcome will transpire from Túrin’s actions) and possible (e.g., what outcomes would have transpired had Túrin chosen differently). 

Both the Ainur and the Children of Ilúvatar are “imagers” of Eru. That is, they reflect the glory and joy of Eru. In the beginning of _Ainulindalë_ in _Silmarillion_, Eru addresses the Ainur,
Of the theme that I have declared to you, I will now that ye make in harmony together a Great Music. And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices, if he will. But I win sit and hearken, and be glad that through you great beauty has been wakened into song.​Eru is inviting them to interact and create music together, to enjoy it with him, to _image_ him as “sub-creators” (Tolkien’s word for this action) of what exists. In order to image Eru, the Ainur must truly possess free will, just as Eru does. However, this immediately creates the risk that some of the Ainur will act in ways opposed to Eru’s will. 

Now besides knowing everything that _does_ happen, Eru also knows everything that _might_ happen but doesn’t. That severs _predestination_ (e.g., Melkor and Mairon (i.e., Sauron) will rebel and cause pain, death, ruin, and mayhem) from _foreknowledge_. To foreknow something is not the same as causing it or even willing it. The ways to Eru’s ends (goals) are various and many. 

Saying that Eru is all-good is not the same as saying Eru is all-benevolent. That is, he seems to choose to tolerate shortcomings as long as individuals return to him and his ways (e.g., the Rebellion of the Noldor: those who survived the First Age were not only permitted but encouraged to return to Aman and receive the pardon of the Valar), but he has no problem with allowing an obstinately rebellious creature to condemn itself to perdition. (In this latter camp would be Morgoth, Sauron, the Nazgûl, the (probably Elven spirit that is the) Barrow-wight, and all the mortal worshippers of Morgoth and Sauron.) 

Besides all this, we should keep in mind that in Tolkien’s mythology, it is _Eru_ who determines what is good and what is not. We are outside: It is not _our_ judgment of what is good or evil that matters, but Eru’s. Who is greater? Eru or Melkor? Eru or Fëanor? Eru or Túrin? This echoes the old proverb that _there is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death._ 

───◊───

Welcome, Risdalon. Your command of English is far superior to mine of Tagalog!


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## 1stvermont (Jun 6, 2021)

Alcuin said:


> I think Eru desires that creatures with Free Will may choose to worship him and follow his lead. The risk that this entails is that some of those creatures will rebel, they will use their Free Will to disobey and dishonor Eru. He apparently thinks the reward is worth that risk.
> 
> The Problem of Evil, which you have highlighted here, Risdalon, is intimately intertwined with the issue of Free Will. The typical argument against Free Will in light (if we may use that word in this context) of the Problem of Evil goes like this. _If Eru is all-knowing and all-powerful and all-good, then he knew ahead of time [note the pun] that Melkor and his followers would commit evil. If he is all-powerful, though, then he should have either not created Melkor and his followers, or else he should have created them so that they did not fall. Otherwise, he is either not all-powerful or all-good._
> 
> ...



Great post.


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