# Just consider if Saruman didn't team up with Sauron...



## Eliot (Jan 7, 2003)

*Just consider....*

Have you ever imagined what wouldn't have happened if Saruman didn't ally himself with Sauron? I'm going to do a list of very important events that wouldn't have happened.

#1: The Fellowship wouldn't have gone through Moria, and there wouldn't be a Gandalf the White, 
#2: The Fellowship wouldn't have gone through Lorien and gotten their gifts from Galadriel (which are very important later on), 
#3: The fellowship wouldn't have gone south down the Anduin, and would've gone through the Gap of Rohan, 
#4: Boromir wouldn't have died, M&P wouldn't have gone to Fangorn and met Treebeard & the Ents, 
#5: The Fellowship probably would've stopped at Isengard for rest, might have stopped at Edoras (Grima wouldn't be involved, since Saruman is an ally). 

All this because Saruman was good. 

OK, now I'm going to stop here so everybody can give their opinions about what might've happened next, since a lot of different things could've happened.


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## BlackCaptain (Jan 7, 2003)

U make good points... but all this is good for the fellowship. The only bad part is that Gandalf would remain gray, and probly not be able to fend off the Lord of the Nazgul at the gates of Minas Tirith. But if Sauraman was good, he would be helping them most likely, and do it for Gandalf. So there is really nothing bad about if Sauraman was good. But u gotta add flavor to the book. I'm guessing theres about 50,000 men in ME, and 5 wizrards That says something. So then 2 powerful wizards together equals... 

Too easy of a defeat of Sauron. 

Tolkien had to do something to... "spice it up".

While your points u made are good, it would most likely never have even have made Tolkien think twice about making Sauraman bad. It builds a climax, and things would be too easy with 2 wizards.


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## Celebthôl (Jan 7, 2003)

Well Saruman was never that powerful anyway, i mean Gandalf was more powerful in his grey state, so i dont think that Saruman would have fended off any Nazgul, and in a full on fight ME even with all those men would fail, because there was more men and orcs in Mordor anyway!

Thôl


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## j0n4th4n (Jan 7, 2003)

Morgulking - I disagree with what you said there..Saruman 'joins' Sauron initially because he sees no hope in winning - 'if you can't beat em join em' sort of thing. ie it still would have been difficult. Think of all the men sauron had at his command - from rhun and harad, much more people than in therest of M.E. and theres the orcs, nazgul etc.


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## Eliot (Jan 7, 2003)

Well, with two Wizards, you have some good military leaders. I think that Saruman was too scared to stay good because he didn't believe that there was hope anymore. I don't think that he saw the true power that Men held when they united in one. He was scared, that's all.


Oh, and if the fellowship didn't stop in Lorien, then Frodo wouldn't have received the Phial of Galadriel. If Frodo didn't have that when he was in Mordor, then the ring wouldn't have been destroyed.


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## gate7ole (Jan 7, 2003)

I see that you underestimate Saruman's powers.
Let me remind you that he would have won the battle at Helm's Deep but for the intervention of the Ents (which everyone had forgotten - except Gandalf). Then, Gondor would have fallen easier and at the Pelennor Fields there would be a disaster.
But even then Sauron might again perish with the destrution of the Ring (though Frodo's quest would be far more difficult since Sauron wouldn't have a war to worry about). Of course there would be no Gandalf and eagles to rescue Frodo/Sam.
What I say is that the future of ME was mainly the result of two "independent" events: the Ents and the destruction of the Ring. With or without Saruman's aid, the latter would still be necessary. With the Ring intact, Sauron would easily sweep Gandalf, Saruman, Gondor, Rohan and the Elves combined.


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## BlackCaptain (Jan 7, 2003)

> Well Saruman was never that powerful anyway, i mean Gandalf was more powerful in his grey state, so i dont think that Saruman would have fended off any Nazgul, and in a full on fight ME even with all those men would fail, because there was more men and orcs in Mordor anyway!



Then Sauraman and Gandalf could just double team the Witch King... but i see what your saying... And Gandalf wasnt more powerful in his Gray sate?! Sauraman was the head of the Istari, and Gandalf ASCENDED to the White form. Gandalf was more powerful in his Gray state when Sauraman turned bad, but were talking about if he stayed good.



> Morgulking - I disagree with what you said there..Saruman 'joins' Sauron initially because he sees no hope in winning - 'if you can't beat em join em' sort of thing. ie it still would have been difficult. Think of all the men sauron had at his command - from rhun and harad, much more people than in therest of M.E. and theres the orcs, nazgul etc.



John4th4n, i see what your saying too, but if Sauraman was good, he would probly be convinced by Gandalf that there was still hope... And i know how many men Sauron had, but if the "good guys" can do it with one Wizard, than they could do it easierly... with 2

Eliot, you make very good sense.


Gate7ole:



> I see that YOU underestimate Saruman's powers.



are you saying that I underestimate his power? or are you talking to someone else.


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## morello13 (Jan 7, 2003)

there would be no attack on minas tirith b/c of aragorn and pippin not using the palantir


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## BlackCaptain (Jan 7, 2003)

I beg to differ... It's not like Sauron wouldnt go to war with Minas Tirith... If he's already gathered that much strength, its not like he's just gonna decide to not take over Minas Tirith...

And this is just out of no were, but Minas Anor and Minis Ithil are like, the same thing right? i should know, but i forgot somehow...

HAHA... nevermind... dont answeer that... please... i feel to embarased already...


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