# Caradhras or Saruman?



## Legolam (May 8, 2002)

When the Fellowship was trying to cross Caradhras, was it the mountain itself or Saruman's magic that turned them back. How? And why?

Personally, I believe that the mountain was just cruel, like K2, and it had nothing to do with Saruman. I'd love to know what y'all think though.


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## Greenwood (May 8, 2002)

Tolkien leaves this an unresolved question. I do not think there is any real answer. You pick the one you prefer.


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## Talimon (May 8, 2002)

The only bit he includes to explain this would be that sentence regarding Sauron's arm having grown long. This could also be hinting at Saruman, if looked at in the right light.


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## Wonko The Sane (May 8, 2002)

Pretty sure that there were forces (probably Saruman's) at work on the mountain.
It hints at it very strongly.


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## Legolam (May 9, 2002)

Where? Show me the proof! And why does the quote about Sauron's arm say anything about Saruman?  If anything it implies that Sauron has a hand in it.

I'm pretty sure there is a bit when they are down the mountain and Gimli shakes his hand at it and says "Cruel Caradhras" or something like that. If someone could find the quote I'd be eternally grateful


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## Lantarion (May 9, 2002)

> 'Caradhras was called the Cruel, and had an il name,' said Gimli, 'long years ago, when rumour of Sauron had not been heard in these lands'


That's page 97 of Book Two in the FotR.

I think that the mountain itself is the evil here, and that (as Gimli put it) Sauron had nothing to do with its cruelty. "There are many strange things in the world", I think Gandalf said, "which Sauron has no power over and which are older than he." (Not a straight quote.) So I think that the mountain has a sort of will of its own, but where that will came from or how it was formed I cannot say.
That thing with Saruman was just an extra addition into the movie, and has no basis in the book.


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## Legolam (May 9, 2002)

Thank you Ponti!


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## DRavisher (May 9, 2002)

"I wonder if this is a contrivance of the enemy" said Boromir. "They say in my land that he can govern the storms in the Mountains of Shaddow that stand upond the borders of Mordor. He has strange powers and many allies"
"His arm has grown long indeed," said Gimli, "if he can draw snow down from the north to trouble us here three hundred leagues away."
"His arm has grown long," said Gandalf.



But they also talk about things that Sauron don't controll... Guess that the answer to the question is for each to decide.


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## Anarchist (May 9, 2002)

I believe it was the mountain itself. To begin with, just remember the stone giants in The Hobbit. They where something like Caradhas. He was the mountain itself, being cruel to everyone trying to cross it, showing off his power to the weakest. The quotes for probing this have been stated by others.


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## Gil-Galad (May 9, 2002)

Pontifex is right.Caradhras stops the fellowship not Saruman.In the movie is shown that Saruman causes the bad wheater but not everything which is in the movie is correct.For example the fact that Arwen saves Frodo.


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## Carantalath (May 10, 2002)

I don't think there is a given answer to this any where in the books (but I could be wrong) so I think you have to go by which ever way you want to think about it. I personally think that Caradhras was the cause, unlike the portrayal of this in the movie. The mountain was using its own power to get the fellowship off of the mountain because it probably wanted to keep everyone off of the mountain. But that's just my opinion.


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## The Necromancer (May 11, 2002)

*The arm of Sauron*

I believe when in The Fellowship they are talking about the arm of Sauron, they may be talking about the alliance of Sauraman and Sauron, and Sauraman put the mountain under his control. Also, does anyone else notice how close these to mens names are?


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## Thorin (May 11, 2002)

As I've said before, Gandalf's comment to Gimli and Boromir was nothing more then a confirmation that the Dark Lord had power and his arm had grown long, it was not a confirmation of Gimli thinking that he MIGHT be the cause of Caradhras' ill will...There are many references as already pointed out, that ME had a mind of it's own....

And as also mentioned, even if Gandalf was confirming Gimli's superstitions, it was the direct arm of Sauron bringing down power that was being talked about. To bring Saruman into the picture would be stretching the conversation...

Just goes to show how much stock some people (not you fine folks here, this conversation has been hashed out before  ), will put in the movie that they end up interpreting Tolkien's ambiguous parts as if PJ has laid out the gospel facts on these matters for the whole world.....


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## Legolam (May 11, 2002)

Thorin has a point (I don't agree with his views often!). There is NO alliance between Saruman and Sauron in the book, and it seems some people are getting a tad mixed up.

Since I now have my (or rather my brother's!) books at hand, here are some quotes that we can all ponder over:



> "We cannot go further tonight," said Boromir. "let those call it the wind who will, there are fell voices on the air; and those stones are aimed at us."
> "I do call it the wind," said Aragorn. "But that does not make what you say untrue. There are many evil and unfriendly things in the world that have ilttle love for those that go on two legs, and yet are not in league with Sauron, but have purposes of their own. Some have been in this world longer than he."



I think this quote is referring to Caradhras being older than Sauron, and manevolent in its own way.



> "enough, enough!" cried Gimli. "We are departing as quickly as we may!" And indeed with that last stroke the _malice of the mountain_ seemed to be expended, as if Caradhras was satisfied that the invaders had been beaten off and would not dare to return.



That seems to fairly unequivocally state to me that neither Sauron nor Saruman had a hand in this.


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## Wonko The Sane (May 31, 2002)

After reading through these posts I've changed my opinion.
I at first thought Sauron had influenced Saruman to take a hand in it...
But now I don't believe it was either.
I think it was just the bastard mountain being a prick.

Thanks for all these p.o.v.  I appreciate it.


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