# Sadness in the Appendices



## Corvis (Mar 27, 2005)

The only part in the Appendices which I truly dislike is the part concerning the later events of the Fellowship of the Ring after Frodo left on the ships to Valinor. It tells of the death of Pippin, Merry, Eomer, Aragorn, and even Sam’s wife. It also tells how Sam leaves the Red Book to Elanor and goes to the Grey Havens and sails out into the seas. Is he going to look for Frodo? Though, I think the saddest part is here:

*1541*_ In this year on March 1st came at last the Passing of King Elessar. It is said the beds of Meriadoc and Peregrin were set beside the bed of the great king. Then Legolas built a grey ship in Ithilien, and sailed down Anduin and so over Sea; and with him, it is said, went Gimli the Dwarf. And when that ship passed and end was come in Middle-earth of the Fellowship of the Ring. _


It just seems like such a sad way to end such an incredible story.


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## Voronwë (Mar 28, 2005)

Its not that sad really...Frodo, Legolas, Gimli and Sam end up going to the Undying Lands of all places. Of whose deaths are shown, they are presented in a "happy" manner if you will, with Aragorn choosing to return the gift of extra life after being one of the most respected and admired Kings of the men of the West of all time and Merry and Pippin dying together, as they would wish and in the lands which they loved.


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## Gil-Galad (Mar 28, 2005)

Well,every great story has its end....and even if it is "happy end" it can be sad.

Concerning the appendices,they are just a normal end of the whole story.King Elessar rest in peace with his friends from the Fellowship,Legolas and Gimli and Sam go to Aman.....just the perfect end.


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## Helm (Mar 28, 2005)

In any book even if "they all lived happily ever after" they will die smetime, we just do't think about it.


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## Hammersmith (Mar 29, 2005)

What about Arwen wandering brokenhearted for a year and then dying of sorrow in Lorien? At least Beren and Luthien's deaths were more beautific (if such a term could be used)


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## Gil-Galad (Mar 29, 2005)

That was her choise....


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## Helm (Mar 29, 2005)

Did she did or give up he spirit?


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## Arbrandir (Mar 29, 2005)

It's called *catharsis.*

And thank Eru for that in JRRT's works.

How could his works ever have had the same effect on generations of readers --- a simple "And they lived happily ever after" would NEVER have done it.

After Aragorn dies, Arwen wanders to the now forsaken woods of Lorien, where they first met, to take her last choice -- to join him in death.


Other characters, of course, have to submit to Arda's fate. They will be gone forever. Yet still, their death is portrayed as noteworthy and honorable.

Frodo and Bilbo escape death, if you will - or do they? They are invited to the white sands of Valinor ... but are they ever allowed to actually set foot on those beaches? Or are they left with the consolary thought that they "might" eventually get there?


_LotR_ leaves us guessing. But not on one thing: The heroes *will* die -- eventually. Just as we all will die eventually.


What tells "us" from "them" is - will it make a difference?


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## Greenwood (Mar 29, 2005)

Arbrandir said:


> Frodo and Bilbo escape death, if you will - or do they? They are invited to the white sands of Valinor ... but are they ever allowed to actually set foot on those beaches? Or are they left with the consolary thought that they "might" eventually get there?


Actually, Tolkien writes in his letters that Bilbo and Frodo do not escape death since even the Valar cannot change their fate. They are given a chance to heal and then to choose the time of their deaths, but they still die.


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## Hammersmith (Mar 30, 2005)

Oh, Arbrandir, I wasn't suggesting that the sadness or catharsis is negative in any way. If anything it brings around some nostalgia, a mournfulness that can only be countered by re-reading the book, a sense of loss too powerful to be redressed. It is deeply moving, and not, I feel, anticlimatic at all. I agree with all your points here.


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## Valandil (Mar 30, 2005)

Yeah - last night I tried to post something along the lines of what Arbrandir says, but it didn't take.  (Now THAT'S sad... all that typing... lost!)

Anyhoo - another observation I made which I'll try with one more time:

I had forgotten (or hadn't realized) that Arwen wandered around Lorien for a full year or so. Noticed something interesting about her age at the time of Aragorn's passing. She was born in 241 TA - Aragorn passed in 1541 Shire Reckoning, which would have converted to 3141 TA (except that they were in the Fourth Age, of course).

What I found interesting is that Arwen's age then, of 2900 years, equals exactly 20 Elvish _yen_ (20 x 144 = 2880) + 20 years.

So I guess at her death she was 20 yen + 20 years + 1 more.


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## HLGStrider (Mar 30, 2005)

Everyone has to die, and if you accept that as a fact, you don't really see the addition of it as a sad thing to a book. A sadder end would be if Arwen had continued immortality without him.

The year is the sad part, that she had to lose everything. The way I see it, however, was that her control over her life was such that even after mortality she still had to lose everything worth living for in order to accept death. She had to be certain there was nothing left for her on those shores before she departed.


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## Annaheru (Mar 30, 2005)

Also, I think we need to remember Tolkien's own sense of the sublime: "The one was deep and wide and beautiful, but slow *and blended with an immeasurable sorrow, from which its beauty chiefly came* [emphasis added]." ~Ainulindale. The above quote refers to the Third Theme, AKA the Children, from this we see that Tolkien perceived beauty and sorrow as inseperable.


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## Alatar (Mar 30, 2005)

I think the saddness in the appendices for me is the fact that one by one the fellowship and everyone they knew are dying or leaving middle earth. Arwen is the saddest because of the fact that she died where she and Aragorn regected the shadow and the twilight.

But as Aragorn says on his deathbed ..

"in sorrow we must go but not in despair. beholod we are not bound within the circules of this world, and beond them is more than memory,farewell!"

And i think that sums it up prety well.


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## Corvis (Mar 30, 2005)

HLGStrider said:


> Everyone has to die, and if you accept that as a fact, you don't really see the addition of it as a sad thing to a book.


 
That is true. I guess you can look at death as a good thing in the LOTR. If you think about it some of the Fellowship will be reunited in death.



Gil-Galad said:


> King Elessar rest in peace with his friends from the Fellowship,Legolas and Gimli and Sam go to Aman.....just the perfect end.


 
That is a happy way to look at it.


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## Alatar (Mar 30, 2005)

Well i think that hobbits leav the circules of the world like men so this means that in the end,sam,frodo,merry,pippin,boromir and Aragorn all get renunited!  
And Gandalf and Legolas are together and if gimli is in the halls of mandos then he could still see them like Finrod does in the sil so  yay!


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## HLGStrider (Mar 30, 2005)

Corvis said:


> [ That is true. I guess you can look at death as a good thing in the LOTR. If you think about it some of the Fellowship will be reunited in death.


 
I think it will always be hard for humans to look upon death as a "good thing" but I think we will all come to see it as a necessary thing. Books that ended with the lead becoming "immortal" somehow always rang with untruth for me. I think there is some sadness in the idea of seperate fates. We all must assume that Legolas and Gandalf ended somewhere different from the rest of the group. . .and perhaps Gimli for Aule alone seems to know the fate of Dwarves.

For that we have to blame Tolkien for making Elves and Angels along with Men and Mortals.


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## Alatar (Mar 30, 2005)

Yes but if all of the races of middle earth went to aman after death then it would make the choice of arwen to easy


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## HLGStrider (Mar 30, 2005)

In all truly great novels I think there has to be some sadness, some sacrifice, some cost if you will. In the LotR's most of the characters live through it. None of the fellowship pay the "highest price." Boromir does not, to me, count because I see him as paying a price for his own ill rather than for Sauron's. His death is personally redemptive.

Therefore while we see the cost of war in names, we don't lose our personal heroes. 

Frodo takes the most sacrifice, but what of the others. What is their cost? Their tragic choice or sacrifice? Tolkien uniquely saves it for the appendix and leaves it with Sam's happy ending for the text.


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## bauglir (Mar 31, 2005)

the end is just beautiful and quite sad in a happy way when they all die(or go to aman) in a nice way.


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## Alcuin (Apr 4, 2005)

Valandil said:


> What I found interesting is that Arwen's age then, of 2900 years, equals exactly 20 Elvish yen (20 x 144 = 2880) + 20 years.
> 
> So I guess at her death she was 20 yen + 20 years + 1 more.


What a beautiful observation: she was still young in Elvish terms! Felled in her youth by grief, loneliness, sadness, and regret … ah, sad and poignant! And what a unique observation, Valandil! Elrond likened his daughter to “a young birch of many summers.” We must investigate the “Elvish” ages of other Elven characters. 

Arwen’s reluctance for Aragorn to die and leave her reflects her final comprehension of the fall of the Númenóreans in the Second Age. “She was not yet weary of her days, and thus she tasted the bitterness of the mortality that she had taken upon her.” Elrond foresaw it: “I fear that to Arwen the doom of Men may seem hard at the ending.” It was hard: for her, for him, even for us, and it would seem particularly for Corvis.



Annaheru said:


> Also, I think we need to remember Tolkien's own sense of the sublime: "The one was deep and wide and beautiful, but slow and blended with an immeasurable sorrow, from which its beauty chiefly came [emphasis added]." ~Ainulindale. The above quote refers to the Third Theme, AKA the Children, from this we see that Tolkien perceived beauty and sorrow as inseperable.


To which I may add this from “Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor” in Silmarillion:


> And it was told by the Vanyar who held vigil with the Valar that when the messengers declared to Manwë the answers of Fëanor to his heralds, Manwë wept and bowed his head. But at that last word of Fëanor: that at least the Noldor should do deed to live in song for ever, he raised his head, as one that hears a voice far off, and he said: ‘So shall it be! Dear-bought those songs shall be accounted, and yet shall be well-bought. For the price could be no other. Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty no before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil yet be good to have been.’


Middle-earth is no sadder in fact for men than our own, real world: it is sadder in effect to us readers, perhaps, in that the Eldar must leave forever or fade forever. Tolkien once remarked in an interview: "Large human stories are practically always about one thing, aren't they? Death, inevitably death. All men must die, and for every man his death is an accident, an unjustifiable violation.'" (I cannot cite the interviewer or the source; I have seen it myself and heard him speak these words on television as the interview was replayed. The Central Oregon Community College website cites it in a film by Graham Fuller, "Trimming Tolkien" Feb. 2002, from which you can Google it yourself.)

Remember that Tolkien’s own father died when he was young, and was a pleasant recollection of love and safety at the far end of his memory. The loss of his mother was clear, sharp, and affected everything he did and believed for the rest of his life. He was himself well acquainted with sadness. But perhaps it is good to remember Gandalf’s words to the hobbits as he and Frodo and Bilbo prepared to depart into the West:


> I will not say: do not weep; for not all tears are an evil.


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## scotsboyuk (Apr 4, 2005)

The different endings for each character are very important for they help to create a sense of loss in the reader. This sense of loss is vital because it impart a love and interest in the characters as well as making the story seem more real.

Frodo passes over the sea with Bilbo and Gandalf and we are happy for him, but intertwined with that happiness is the sadness that Sam feels to be losing his friend. There is also happiness though as Sam has Rosie. Merry and Pippin pass away, but they are together. Arwen is without Aragorn and wanders in lonliness, but this is part of the choice she made in deciding to stay in Middle Earth. Again there is a sens eof happiness amongst the sadness, in death Arwen shall be reunited with Aragorn.

The Fellowship may have broken apart and its members gone their seperate ways, but Middle Earth is left free from the Dark Lord. The passing of the Fellowship isn't a bad thing therefore, it is like all the other endings, natural.

Tolkien's story ends with the characters behaving as people do in the real world. We may have a circle of friends in school or university and we have a wonderful time with them, but as the years go by many will drift apart. The fine deeds have been accomplished and those tales can be passed on afresh to the next generation to inspire them, else we would have stagnation.


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## HLGStrider (Apr 6, 2005)

I just thought of something on the subject of sadness and beauty. . .

but I will begin by seeming to go off topic and also risking much wrath to descend upon myself from the direction of my fellow Ringers (IE, Tolkien fans). 

The Lord of the Rings is not the most beautiful book in the world.

Yes, I have made the statement and I will stand by it until the end of time. The Lord of the Rings is beautiful beyond mortal comprehesion, but it is not the most beautiful book in the world. 

Ok, you are thinking, we all know Elgee is a Baptist. She is probably going to say the Bible. . .no, actually. It isn't the Bible either. The Bible has beautiful parts, but I don't really see it as a book, persay, so I will just say that it isn't the most beautiful book. 

THE MOST BEAUTIFUL BOOK IN THE WORLD. . .Drum roll, pull back the curtain, blink, scroll quickly down to see what the heck I am up to. 





























The world's most beautiful book is Antoine De Saint-Exupery's _The Little Prince_.

Yes, it's a child's book, but oh! What a child's book! It's like having love at your fingertips in all its glory and heartbreak. 

And it is beautiful because it is a heartbreak. This book tells the story of beauty and agony. We pampered humans. Can you really feel if you don't feel pain? And how mysterious, as the Little Prince reminds us, is the world of tears. 

I was thinking in the bathtub tonight about being sensitive, about guarding your heart from hurt. In the last year I have laid my heart open to emotion that hurt me more than I had ever been hurt in my life, and in the closing of that wound, I have been very afraid of scarring over hard, so to speak. I have decided that one can only feel joy as deeply as one can hurt, and to be capable of experiencing great love or joy you have to be capable of experiencing the same level of pain. Every love lays you open to hurt. Love tames you and makes you an easy victim for the beloved, or for fate, or life in general, like a dog who will accept a beating from the beloved master. 

And perhaps that is why there is so much sadness in the Lord of the Rings. Because in other parts there is so much happiness, and the depth of one must equal the other for it to be true.


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## Hammersmith (Apr 6, 2005)

Very well put, HLG. The Golden Prince, The Little Match Girl, The Sparrow And The Rose, these fairy tales contain great hurt as a central theme, with death shown as a beautific and noble aspect of life, sacrifice and oppression, loss and separation...I think that Lord of the Rings contains these themes, but as they are not, perhaps, central, they are overshadowed by larger subjects, and the angle of sadness and beauty that you found is neglected in favour of other topics.


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