# What if "Church of Iluvatar" was made



## Mr.Underhill (Apr 9, 2022)

Just curious to how big that religion would be? If it were made by cult followers?


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## Olorgando (Apr 9, 2022)

Mr.Underhill said:


> Just curious to how big that religion would be? If it were made by cult followers?


I'm fairly certain that JRRT himself would have been absolutely horrified by any such thing ...


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## 1stvermont (Apr 9, 2022)

Mr.Underhill said:


> Just curious to how big that religion would be? If it were made by cult followers?



There was someone who posted a while back who was researching such groups. There are some around, however, I am not sure where.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 9, 2022)

I'm a bit confused-- are we talking about real life, or Middle-earth?


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## Mr.Underhill (Apr 9, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I'm a bit confused-- are we talking about real life, or Middle-earth?


If people wanted to make religion of it in our real world from the LOTR universe. Or Silmarillion would be that book for information


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## Erestor Arcamen (Apr 9, 2022)

Don't give them any ideas 🤣


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 9, 2022)

Mr.Underhill said:


> If people wanted to make religion of it in our real world from the LOTR universe.


I met someone who claimed to follow Bokononism, so sure, what the heck. 😅


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## Olorgando (Apr 9, 2022)

Mr.Underhill said:


> If people wanted to make religion of it in our real world from the LOTR universe. Or Silmarillion would be that book for information


Who would be its equivalent to Moses, Jesus or Mohammed? Not JRRT himself, certainly. So I'd guess it wouldn't rise above a tiny sect.


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## Mr.Underhill (Apr 9, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> Who would be its equivalent to Moses, Jesus or Mohammed? Not JRRT himself, certainly. So I'd guess it wouldn't rise above a tiny sect.


Well they have the Valar to do that. So thats about it.


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## Olorgando (Apr 9, 2022)

Mr.Underhill said:


> Well they have the Valar to do that. So thats about it.


Uh-uh. It needs a human prophet. Which prophet might claim to have received his ,,, whatever ... from one of the Valar (which one?). That's the way it has worked for several thousand years.


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## Mr.Underhill (Apr 9, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> Uh-uh. It needs a human prophet. Which prophet might claim to have received his ,,, whatever ... from one of the Valar (which one?). That's the way it has worked for several thousand years.


Well the thing is people pass down scripts and texts. If it goes against the will and purpose of Iluvatar and Valar, it probably is deemed as a phony.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 9, 2022)

I AM TULKAS!


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## 1stvermont (Apr 9, 2022)

In this sort of thing, I always imagined Tolkien himself was the prophet who Iluvatar used to reveal this gnostic truth through. They would have to say that Tolkien received this "revelation" even though he himself did not accept it as such.


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## Olorgando (Apr 9, 2022)

1stvermont said:


> In this sort of thing, I always imagined Tolkien himself was the prophet who Iluvatar used to reveal this gnostic truth through. They would have to say that Tolkien received this "revelation" even though he himself did not accept it as such.


JRRT himself called the process "sub-creation". I'd like to read the contorted arguments the sect would need to get around this utterly unambiguous statement by him ... or maybe "like" isn't quite the right word; "spin-doctoring" is usually anything but a pretty sight ... 😈


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## Lómelindë Lindórië (May 12, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I AM TULKAS!


(Just to reply over a month later...)

Can't deny that you actually seem like Tulkas xD

In addition...

_You are not the only Ainu! There is another! I am the Maia of Námo and Irmo! _


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## The Void (Oct 1, 2022)

JRRT did do his works based upon the desire to create a Mythology for the people of the British Iles. It seemed that unlike most of Europe, Britain didn't have a historical mythology of its own. It is also said that the 'Briton' (those who were in Briton before the Anglo-Saxons arrived. Note: of 6,000 burials discovered from the immigration of the Anglos and Saxons into Briton. No proof of 'violent deaths' was found as if the land was won over by battle against the Britons. Just a case of superior numbers and breeding by the Anglos and Saxons which the areas of Wales and Cornwall remained as Briton) story of Camelot was not only a fictitious propaganda of its day (before being Christianised, like Hollywood changing Tolkien's work to be more Woke/PC/etc) - but also, that it was also a 'borrowed' version of story from mainland Europe so long ago. The peoples of Britain before the Britons, were instead basically wiped out but for handfuls of women to be concubines as Genetic Tracing shows. 
So back to his Mythology. JRRT's works are just something for the British to be proud of. A 'history' that although still based on mainland mythologies, is something adapted for the British to call their own.
If it 'evolves' into a Religion? Well, it was created in 'book' form - so a 'Temple' (Church is for Christianity) for Tolkienism can be more than justified and would only help preserve his work for generations to come.
Writing was created in Sumeria long ago. The Priests of the Temple of Ur worshipped 'Sin' or Ab-Sin-Nanna (in Sumerian) which is what we call the Moon today. Sin 'inspired' the Priests of Ur to 'create' Writing and long before Zarathustra used it to create the first Religion formed from local Pagan stories to make a 'Duality' for the first time. Writing was primarily used for 'logistical' reasons and record. Look closely at the two words: Ur and Sin... Sin-Ur (Sinner). You now see where Writing changed the world in the Middle-East with the Hebrew using writing and Zarathustra's works to create their own 'immortal' recording of the bloodline from their own Adam/Eve story to thus create the first of three Monotheisms (funny how there isn't a 'one' monotheism to symbolise the 'One God' aspect. Lol)

So yes, Tolkien Fans can form a 'Temple' for his works. This Forum, in a way - is like a Temple.

As for the poor people before the Britons came into those islands, well - before 6,000+ years. The British Isles was mostly inhabited by nomadics that came and went within the changes of the Ice Ages, when they were habitable. But like I said, they were hunted out by the first 'permanent' Britons so long ago. So in truth, Britain is basically a non-indigenous non-first-people nation. Especially when 'Neanderthals' (possible inspiration for stories of Ogres) were the first ones there much longer ago and for far longer still.


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## Deimos (Oct 1, 2022)

So, it would be monotheistic; i.e no good/ bad or yin/yang duality.
The supreme deity is eternal and 'outside' of everything.
He creates angelic beings who are spirit in nature, and the highest and most powerful one rebels
So far it looks pretty familiar.

It starts to get sticky with the different races of people .
Some called the children of Illuvatar or First born, some created by another creature (Aule bringing forth the Dwarves** )
Yet priority in time of race's creation does not equate to superiority in character or goodness of that race.
It was Tolkien's universe and he could structure it as he liked.

But here, in our world?
Can't think of a better way to promote [more] class and race warfare than establishing a Church of Illuvatar here.
(But it would please Morgoth, I'm sure....)

**Tolkien's primal instance of sub-creation


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## The Void (Oct 2, 2022)

If this Forum was a 'Temple' (Church, Synagogue, Mosque, etc) of Tolkien's work - would the Mods be considered 'Priests' or Holy Ones?
Would they be the Valar and the creator of this Forum be as Eru Illuvatar?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 2, 2022)

Nice idea -- but I suspect for some, it's more like


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## Elthir (Oct 2, 2022)

I don't usually correct spelling [I misspell stuff too] but if anyone's gonna have a church, it's:

*Ilúvatar*

One L [even if you leave out the long marker/acute accent above the u, like I usually do, out of laziness]. The character for L in Elvish writing is pretty notable too!

Actually, I don't think it's really a spelling error as much as a *visual trick*, but stilll


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## Elthir (Oct 2, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> I'm fairly certain that JRRT himself would have been absolutely horrified by any such thing ...



Agreed by the way.


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## The Void (Oct 2, 2022)

Thanks Elthir. You are 'write' - it is one L .


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## Elthir (Oct 2, 2022)

I'm convinced it is but a visual trick, as I've seen folks quote from texts, but still include the second L.

Eru is easier, unless one gets it mixed up with Elu [Thingol]


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## Olorgando (Oct 2, 2022)

The Void said:


> If this Forum was a 'Temple' (Church, Synagogue, Mosque, etc) of Tolkien's work - would the Mods be considered 'Priests' or Holy Ones?
> Would they be the Valar ...


No, no! Our mods are doing a much better job with TTF than JRRT showed his sometimes overburdened Valar doing with Middle-earth; I'd prefer to keep it that way, no degeneration to Valar-standard!


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 2, 2022)

Elthir said:


> Agreed by the way.


He's a religious man, so I'd imagine.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Oct 3, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> No, no! Our mods are doing a much better job with TTF than JRRT showed his sometimes overburdened Valar doing with Middle-earth; I'd prefer to keep it that way, no degeneration to Valar-standard!


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Oct 3, 2022)

I’m already “degenerated” to Valar standard then...


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## Rivendell_librarian (Oct 3, 2022)

As for the word "mainland" referring to continental Europe.

"Heavy fog in the channel. Continent cut off" Times newspaper 22 October 1957.


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## The Void (Oct 4, 2022)

I guess Eru Iluvatar had a reason for making Melkor straight up mightier than the rest of the Valar?
With the admission that any 'corruption' of the song that Melkor contributed in doing in 'despite' of Iluvatar, would just make things more 'wonderful'.


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## Olorgando (Oct 4, 2022)

The Void said:


> I guess Eru Iluvatar had a reason for making Melkor straight up mightier than the rest of the Valar?


As far as the (heavily) edited "Silmarillion" posthumously published by JRRT's son and literary executer Christopher goes (I'm paraphrasing here), Melkor "had a share" in the talents, capabilities, whatever ... "of all of his brethren". He might have not been able to confront even the more powerful Maiar in their "specialty".
But what Christpher Tolkien mainly used in constructing the published "Silmarillion" appears to be the "middle sections" of his father's (unpublished during JRRT's own lifetime) writings ...

The early sections - mainly the "Book of Lost Tales", volumes 1 and 2 of HoMe - and the later volumes 10 and 11 each depict an "over the deep end" depiction of Melkor, and much else, IMO ...


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Oct 4, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> As far as the (heavily) edited "Silmarillion" posthumously published by JRRT's son and literary executer goes (I'm paraphrasing here), Melkor "had a share" in the talents, capabilities, whatever ... "of all of his brethren". He might have not been able to confront even the more powerful Maiar in their "specialty"


Having a share of a portion of each of the 14 Valar seems to diverge the poignancy of Melkor's might and power.


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## Arauka (Oct 10, 2022)

Apropos of nothing ...

I used to dream of living a simple life in a small surviving colony in post-apocalyptic times after the inevitable collapse of modern civilization. One of the evening activities was reading to the children from the Good Book (i.e. the Silmarillion). I imagined after several generations this would simply be taken as Truth. No need for prophets, no need for cult status, no need for temples (you see how that went in Númenor!).

But ya, maybe not quite where this topic was going ...


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## d4rk3lf (Oct 10, 2022)

Mr.Underhill said:


> Just curious to how big that religion would be? If it were made by cult followers?


Wait. 
So you don't believe Illuvatar exist?


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Oct 10, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> Wait.
> So you don't believe Illuvatar exist?


_I certainly do...for I do not rule out anything._


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## Radaghast (Oct 10, 2022)

If we're talking about the real world, the "Church of Iúvatar" would just be another Judeo-Christian sect.


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## Will Whitfoot (Oct 10, 2022)

In my understanding, the services of any "Church of Iúvatar" would consist entirely of music. All contributions to any "conversation" pertaining thereto would be in the language of tone, harmony, and rhythm. Ordinary linear speech would simply be too devoid of depth of meaning to be appropriate. In other "words" only a being of maia or vala status would be capable of contributing anything, so there would be no point in organizing such a religious group for ordinary mortals, whether of this world or a fantasy one.


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## The Void (Oct 11, 2022)

Well Judaism is the Middle-East's theme or 'portal' on Asia and all things Holy 'city'.
Christianity is the Middle-East's theme or portal on Europe and all things 'Healing' (and a supper in a restaurant)
Mohommedism is the Middle-East's theme or portal on Africa and all things Holy 'land' (as is Australian Aboriginal culture being a portal to Africa and all things 'land').
So what would the Religion of Tolkienism be based upon, besides being set up as a fabricated mythology for Britain based upon mainland European mythologies before Europe was 'conquered' by a Middle-Eastern Religion?
Maybe the Holy Religion of Tolkienism needs to find a 'New World' to find a home? It's gaining popularity in North America, even if the 'Media' side of the USA needs to change Tolkienism to suit its own narrative (like Melkor changing the Song to suit himself  )


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## Olorgando (Oct 11, 2022)

The Void said:


> Maybe the Holy Religion of Tolkienism needs to find a 'New World' to find a home?


There's the matter of Humphrey Carpenter's 1981 book "The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien".
Anyone bent on starting a new "religion" based on JRRT's writngs would have to relate to this book in one of three ways

1. be utterly ignorant of it
2. utterly misunderstand it
3. utterly ignore it (this would be a sort of an Amazon approach ... 😈 )


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## Deimos (Oct 11, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> There's the matter of Humphrey Carpenter's 1981 book "The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien".
> Anyone bent on starting a new "religion" based on JRRT's writngs would have to relate to this book in one of three ways
> 
> 1. be utterly ignorant of it
> ...


Bingo.


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## JuliankVx (Jan 2, 2023)

It's definitely interesting to think about what a Church of Iluvatar would look like in our world.


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## 1stvermont (Jan 3, 2023)

JuliankVx said:


> It's definitely interesting to think about what a Church of Iluvatar would look like in our world.



Welcome!!!


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## Ent (Jan 4, 2023)

Will Whitfoot said:


> the services of any "Church of Iúvatar" would consist entirely of music.


An interesting concept, sir Whitfoot.
Yet...consider this. (The 'literalist' in me rises.)

All the 'important' concepts of communication between Eru and the Ainur were (essentially) 'verbal'. "Here are 3 themes. Sing about them and embellish them "if you wish". (He introduced the concept of 'choice' verbally as well.)

So they sang. And of course, there's the wonderful combat between self-will and other-will in view.
Then Eru SAYS "follow me out and see what you've done." 
So they follow him. 
And he SAYS 
"Let these things BE." 

Once that "Be" is done, the singing is ended. It has achieved its purpose. All their "individual singing' and 'slowly learning to sing in groups' prior to that Song was just the training ground.

Now that it's "done" we see the Ainur and Maiar always TALKING. The role of the Valar is to 'go and make what you've sung'. Not to continue singing over it.

There is one who sings Melkor to sleep at one point... and of course the Elves like to sing all the time... but still the most important thing in 'communicating needs, concepts, etc.' to one another is Talk, not song.

So I dunno. I would think a Church of Iluvatar would be pretty much like any other church.

The species would find numerous ways to 'worship', including eventually bending it all into some distorted thing that looks nothing like its beginnings did to begin with. (The path taken by virtually every 'church' existing today.)

We have a history of distorting truth to match our preference, rather than changing our preference to match truth. I don't see that changing., especially as the Religion of Opinion comes to the fore now to rule the day.


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