# Aragorn's ancestors



## Huan the Hound (Jan 29, 2004)

Why don't any of Aragorn's ancestors attempt to claim the throne of Gondor during the Stewardship?

My thought was that they were content in Arnor, despite the waning of their kingdom, and felt that the Stewards would not recognize their legitimate claim. Any other thoughts?

Also, would someone write a _brief_ summary of the history of Arnor post Isildur's death? What was the consequence of Arnor's interaction with the Witch King?


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## Inderjit S (Jan 29, 2004)

Arnor was divided into three separate realms in the days of the 8th King, Eärendur. The three kingdoms were named 'Cardolan', 'Rhuduar' and 'Arthedain'. The kings of Arthedain kept the line of Isildur going and represented the 'eldest house'. (Since Eärendur’s eldest son set up the realm of Arthedain. 

Sauron, ever the opportunist, saw the division in the northern Númenórean realm (Gondor was at the time to strong, whilst Arnor was in a state of disunion and psedou-chaos) sent the Witch-King to 'Angmar' and he then gathered to him the indigenous 'hill-men' and Orks, Trolls etc. and set up a quasi-realm, in opposition to the Dúnedainic kingdoms. 

Rhuduar soon fell under Angmar’s hegemony and it was in the control of the evil hill-men.. Rhuduar and Angmar sent a army to attack Arthedain at the Weather Hills and the king of Arthedain Argeleb was killed. His son, Arveleg allied himself with Círdan and Cardolan and drove away the force at the Weather Hills. (Argeleb also fortified the Weather Hills, Frodo and co. go through some of these fortifications.)

Some years later a large host issued from Angmar, and they defeated Arveleg and his forces. Cardolan was ravaged and it's remaining resident fled into the Old forest. The Dúnedain fled West, but Araphor and Círdan held out at the North Downs and Fornost Erain. 

In 1974, another host issued from Angmar. It drove away the Dúnedain into Lindon. Arvedui (the king at the time) fled into the north and eventually wound up in the ice-bay of Forochel where he established friendly relations with the Ice-men of Forochel a barbarous people who resided there. They advised him not to board a boat sent by Círdan to take him to Lindon to his kin but he refused to take their advice and his ship drowned. 

Angmar was defeated by the remnants of the northern Dúnedain, Lindon and a army from Gondor with Northmen from Rhovanion. Arvedui was the last King.

When Ondoher, and his sons Artamir and Faramir were killed with the Battle with the Waindriders (along with Ondoher’s nephew Minohtar) Arvedui claimed the crown of Gondor. (He was married to Ondoher’s daughter Fíriel his claim was refused by the counsel of Gondor because of various reasons (they claimed Gondor was the realm, by decree of Isildur, the realm of Anárion’s son Meneldil and that kingship through the female line was not common practice in Middle-Earth as it was in Númenórë because Middle-Earth held the peril of war whilst Númenórë was intrinsically a peaceful realm) and though Arvedui countered these claims they chose to elect the hero victor of the southern forces in Southern Ithilien and router of the Wainriders, Eärnil, Captain of ships at Pelargir and descendant of Anárion as King. 

The Rangers after Arahael were adopted by Elrond in Rivendell. They were held in contempt by some of the Gondorian aristocrats (note Denethor’s words to Gandalf) and they didn’t have the power to claim the throne of Gondor.


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## pgt (Jan 30, 2004)

Inderjit S said:


> In 1974, another host issued from Angmar. It drove away the Dúnedain into Lindon. Arvedui (the king at the time) fled into the north and eventually wound up in the ice-bay of Forochel where he established friendly relations with the Ice-men of Forochel a barbarous people who resided there. They advised him not to board a boat sent by Círdan to take him to Lindon to his kin but he refused to take their advice and his ship drowned.
> 
> Angmar was defeated by the remnants of the northern Dúnedain, Lindon and a army from Gondor with Northmen from Rhovanion. Arvedui was the last King.
> 
> ...



Nicely stated!

WHo are you referring to that disappeared into the old forest?

And can you refresh my memory on Denethor's words (I'm sure they weren't flattering!)

I've always found two things interesting here...

The Shire, other than sending a one time company of archers that never returned, seems to have been conveniently and utterly spared the ravages of those later episodes. That never quite figured for me. The Shire was like a magical island while everythign around it save the small area of Bree was fought over and ultimatley turned 'wild'.

It's ironic how Aragorn's essentially identical claim to the Gondor throne is readily accepted when a previous claim by his ascendent was utterly rejected in no uncertain terms. I believe teh Isildur's line was the main rationale. Anyway it was in a manner that would have set a precedent for any future such claims. I guess hard times and great deeds have a way of overcoming precedent.


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## Flammifer (Jan 30, 2004)

The words to which Inder is referring, I believe, are these:



> _The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King, "The Pyre of Denethor" (Denethor)_
> 
> 'But I say to thee, Gandalf Mithrandir, I will not be thy tool! I am Steward of the House of Anárion. I will not step down to be the dotard chamberlain of an upstart. Even were his claim proved to me, still he comes but of the line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity.'


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## Inderjit S (Jan 30, 2004)

The remnants of the people of Cardolan fled into the Old Forest and the downs.


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## Lantarion (Jan 30, 2004)

Inder, what an awesome and commendable show of lore! I bow to your expertise.  

But if the remnants of the people of Cardolan fled into the Old Forest and the Tyrn Gorthad (which probably didn't have that nickname at the time), then why is there no mention of settlement in those areas? I don't thikn that they even could have set up any kind of camp in the Barrow-grounds themselves, as it ws the equivalent of a graveyard.. And they couldn't have lived in the Old Forest, not without some major deforestation etc. 
So did Tolkien elaborate on the residences of these Cardolanian refugees?


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## Starbrow (Feb 13, 2004)

"It's ironic how Aragorn's essentially identical claim to the Gondor throne is readily accepted when a previous claim by his ascendent was utterly rejected in no uncertain terms. I believe teh Isildur's line was the main rationale. Anyway it was in a manner that would have set a precedent for any future such claims. I guess hard times and great deeds have a way of overcoming precedent."

But this time Isildur's heir was a war hero. So actually the Gondorians are going with the victor, the same as they did when they picked Earnil over Arvedui.


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## Elfarmari (Feb 14, 2004)

Starbrow said:


> "It's ironic how Aragorn's essentially identical claim to the Gondor throne is readily accepted when a previous claim by his ascendent was utterly rejected in no uncertain terms. I believe teh Isildur's line was the main rationale. Anyway it was in a manner that would have set a precedent for any future such claims. I guess hard times and great deeds have a way of overcoming precedent."
> 
> But this time Isildur's heir was a war hero. So actually the Gondorians are going with the victor, the same as they did when they picked Earnil over Arvedui.



I think that the acceptance of Aragorn’s claim was also due to two factors: Faramir’s support and Aragorn’s actual physical presence. Faramir, as Steward and as a Captain, commanded respect from the people of Gondor. The fact that he obviously supported Aragorn’s claim would have given this claim greater support. Also, I do not think Arvedui ever came to Gondor, I think he pursued his claim from afar. Aragorn had proven his valor in battle, and then entered the city as a healer, saving Faramir’s life, as well as those of many others suffering from the Black Breath. I think this personal experience would persuade the people of Gondor more than a claim made from Arnor.


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## Grond (Feb 14, 2004)

Elfarmari said:


> I think that the acceptance of Aragorn’s claim was also due to two factors: Faramir’s support and Aragorn’s actual physical presence. Faramir, as Steward and as a Captain, commanded respect from the people of Gondor. The fact that he obviously supported Aragorn’s claim would have given this claim greater support. Also, I do not think Arvedui ever came to Gondor, I think he pursued his claim from afar. Aragorn had proven his valor in battle, and then entered the city as a healer, saving Faramir’s life, as well as those of many others suffering from the Black Breath. I think this personal experience would persuade the people of Gondor more than a claim made from Arnor.


Elfie, you are correct.


> _from Appendix A, Annals of the Kings and Rulers,_
> On the death of Ondoher and his sons, Arvedui of the North-Kingdom claimed the crown of Gondor, as the direct descendant of Isildur, and as the husband of Fíriel, only surviving child of Ondoher. the claim was rejected, In this Pelendur, the Steward of King Ondoher, played the chief part.
> 
> The Council of Gondor answered: "The crown and royalty of Gondor belongs solely to the heirs of Meneldil Son of Anárion, to whom Isildur relinquished this realm. In Gondor this heritage is reckoned through the sons only, and we have not heard that the law is otherwise in Arnor."
> ...


You had Earnil victorious in Ithilien who was accepted as King and then his son Earnur victorious in the North (he came to the aid of Arvedui). So, in this case, the Kingship of Gondor was selected by leadership ability as well as lineage. One must also remember that both Gondor and Arnor were finally bereft of their Kings at about the same time (Arvedui dies in 1975 and Earnur dies in 2050.) 

Aragorn entered the city after victory in battle and with his own lineage to back up his claim. Denethor had failed his people miserably and died a coward's death and Faramir (wisely) believed that the true King should again be recognized.


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## Inderjit S (Feb 14, 2004)

Lantarion-the people of Cardolan were killed off by the great plague or in battles. Some may have fled Lindon and become merged with the remnants of the Dúnedain there.

About the deforestation-the Bëorians and the Beornings were able to live in forest areas without the need to cut down a lot of trees. The Haladin and the Gwathuirim thrived in forest areas. 

Were the Dúnedain of Cardolan intrinsically forest dwellers? Well 'Cardolan' lies somewhere south of the South Downs and spreads East presumably to the Mitheithel and south of the old road. When the company cross the road from Weathertop the land where Cardolan may have been is described as being desolate, and a 'cheerless land' (early part of 'Flight to the Ford') though we have no idea as to where exactly the Cardolinians dwelt before the troubles with the W-K began and their later excavation to the Old Forest. We hear that there was, at times, strife between Cardolan and Rhuduar for the Weather Hills and Amon Sul, this may indicate that they had a significant populace in the north or it may just be that the hills were a important strategic point, and they contained Amon Sul (Of special significance to the Dúnedain maybe, as well as a important strategic point) and the ubiquitous Palantír. 

When war first broke out and Círdan, Cardolan and Arthedain held force along the Weather Hills, great road and the land to the south of the Hoarwell. This may have instigated a psuedo-emmigration to this areas by the general populace or they may have lived here anyway, or they may have resided further to the West in their old homes still. (i.e. the women and children.) We hear that the Dúnedain had a settlement in the angle, and that Gilraen’s house was there, after she retired from Rivendell. It could be that this was founded on a old Cardolinian settlement, though we don't know whether or not Cardolan stretched so far East. If it did then the Cardolinians would have known and had cordial relations with the Stoors, who lived there for a while before leaving it some time after either to Dunland where some of their kin had gone to earlier or to Wilderland. It may be that the land was more fertile in former times then in the time when Frodo and co. passed through.

It may be that given the malevolent nature of trees and their relationship with Bombadil that they did not deforest the woods.


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## jallan (Feb 14, 2004)

Note that at the time when Avedui make his claim there were still descendants of Meneldil, one of whom was given the crown.

Tolkien makes Avedui’s claim a reasonable one but perhaps no more airtight than that of Henry V of England to be rightful King of France because of Salic law.

When Eärnur king of Gondor went off to fight the Witch-king and never returned there would have been a long period of doubt before anyone attempted to claim the throne.

At that time, according to Appendix A:


> Now the descendants of the kings had become few. Their numbers had been greatly diminished in the Kin-strife; whereas since that time the kings had become jealous and watchful of those near akin. Often those on whom suspicion fell had fled to Umbar and there joined the rebels; while others had renounced their lineage and taken wives not of Númenorean blood. So it was that no claimant to the crown could be found who was of pure blood, or whose claim all would allow; and all feared the memory of the Kin-strife, knowing that if any such dissension arose again, then Gondor would perish. Therefore, though the years lengthened, the Steward continued to rule Gondor, and the crown of Elendil lay in the lap of King Eärnil in the Houses of the Dead, where Eärnur had left it.


In short, there were claimants to the throne, but none whose claim was indisuputably superior and accordingly the nobles of Gondor continued to allow the Steward to rule. It is not impossible that a claim was made by Aranarth at that time but that Aranarth found no more supporters than any other claimants.

It is possible that there were still known descendants of Meneldil in Aragorn&#8217s day, though descended from those who had renounced their lineages or who dwelt still in Umbar. It would be likely enough that some such descendant in Umbar would have been placed as a puppet king over whatever part of Gondor the Umbarians were to be given as reward for their share in aiding Sauron.

That “the line of Meneldil son of Anárion failed” might mean either that by Aragorn’s day there actually were no known survivors or that the pure and unquestioned direct line or royal descent had failed.

It might have been strategic for the the Stewards to have married into one of these families descended from Meneldil ... or perhaps it would have been seen as too obvious a ploy to be strategic.


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