# Why did Elendil live so long?



## ZehnWaters (Sep 28, 2022)

Per the title. Why did Elendil live so long? Was it simply because of the faithfulness of his line? If so, why didn't his grandson, Valandil, live as long (260 years)? Elendil didn't even die of old age (a trait shared by his father and sons) meaning he could have, theoretically, lived even LONGER. Also he was apparently hale enough to be helping Gil-Galad overthrow Sauron in combat. So what's the deal?


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## Ent (Sep 28, 2022)

Simply put, he was of the Dúnedain, the Edain of the West, one of the Númenoreans. They were "the noblest of the races of men" (first known to the Elves) and were blessed with a long life span. (Decreasing over time naturally, and as they mixed with 'lesser men'.)


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 28, 2022)

Dunedain can live longer. That seems like the best description of why. Yet I think the time got lesser and lesser, and thus his son did not live as long as he.


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 28, 2022)

The Enting said:


> Simply put, he was of the Dúnedain, the Edain of the West, one of the Númenoreans. They were "the noblest of the races of men" (first known to the Elves) and were blessed with a long life span. (Decreasing over time naturally, and as they mixed with 'lesser men'.)


Okay but why did he live longer than his Dúnedain peers? The kings of Númenor were consistently living a good 100 years fewer than him by the time of their downfall.


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## Ent (Sep 28, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> live longer than his Dúnedain peers?



I will need to do some individual research on the peers.

Clearly it's noted that the rulers of Númenor became increasingly proud and decadent. Then of course they began to rebel against the Eldar and Valar. It MAY have something to do with that. (A bad lifestyle kills...! ) But I speculate.

What materials have you researched already that haven't answered the question, so I can avoid those in the search? I personally can't promise you an answer really 'quickly'... maybe a couple days. 

And maybe some of our other members with a better or possibly mnemonic memory can help. I have only a semi-eidetic memory, which helps at times to be able to 'reread' images from pages, but when I haven't read the pages, or it's been awhile since I have, the images fade.

Of course, it is to be remembered too, that Sauron deceived many of them in Númenor, which is why they revolted in the end. This must have some consequence on their lifespans.

That said, so far all I've found is that the Dúnedain were granted many of the powers and skills of the Elves, though not immortality, but were granted a lifespan "thrice that of mortal men". (PoME) 

More later.

Actually it seems their life-spans started to decrease even before Sauron's corruption of Númenor.

We read this:
"By the 23rd Century, in the reign of Tar-Atanamir, the Dúnedain began to speak openly against the Valar. Soon the Eldar were estranged and the Hallow of Eru neglected. Only the Faithful (q.v.) remained loyal to the Valar and friendly with the Eldar. In succeeding generations the majority of Númenóreans, known as the King’s Men (q.v.), abandoned the use of the Elven tongues, persecuted the Faithful, and lost the joy of life through the fear of death. The Kings in 2899 began to take their royal names in Adûnaic, and the dwindling of their life-spans increased. In 3175 Tar-Palantir tried to return to the old ways, but his reign was marked by civil war, and on his death in 3255 his nephew usurped the crown and became Ar-Pharazôn."

Prior to this, they had become corrupted through their desire for more power, fear of death, and especially the desire for immortality.
Only the 'few faithful' who escaped the destruction of Númenor seem to not have succumbed to finding their satisfaction in "lordship, ornate tombs, riches and revelry."

So it does seem their diminishing "graces" (including lifespan) are linked to their rebellion and turning from what they were given through Eru.
(More later if I find anything more conclusive.)


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 28, 2022)

The Enting said:


> What materials have you researched already that haven't answered the question, so I can avoid those in the search? I personally can't promise you an answer really 'quickly'... maybe a couple days.


TBH, as I'm away from home, I'm just going off of Tolkien Gateway.



The Enting said:


> Actually it seems their life-spans started to decrease even before Sauron's corruption of Númenor.
> 
> We read this:
> "By the 23rd Century, in the reign of Tar-Atanamir, the Dúnedain began to speak openly against the Valar. Soon the Eldar were estranged and the Hallow of Eru neglected. Only the Faithful (q.v.) remained loyal to the Valar and friendly with the Eldar. In succeeding generations the majority of Númenóreans, known as the King’s Men (q.v.), abandoned the use of the Elven tongues, persecuted the Faithful, and lost the joy of life through the fear of death. The Kings in 2899 began to take their royal names in Adûnaic, and the dwindling of their life-spans increased. In 3175 Tar-Palantir tried to return to the old ways, but his reign was marked by civil war, and on his death in 3255 his nephew usurped the crown and became Ar-Pharazôn."
> ...


Yes, I guess I was just surprised he lived nearly 60 years longer than his grandson and was apparently still in good enough health to be fighting Sauron. Was the loss of Númenor THAT detrimental despite their Faithfulness?


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## Ent (Sep 28, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> longer than his grandson


Yes, I might need to do some research on this part. See if there's any evidence that there was a "mingling with lesser men" in the line to cause that. Or maybe just the hard life the grandson had to live..! 
I'll switch the thrust of the research going forward to the heirs rather than the sires.


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 28, 2022)

The Enting said:


> Yes, I might need to do some research on this part. See if there's any evidence that there was a "mingling with lesser men" in the line to cause that. Or maybe just the hard life the grandson had to live..!
> I'll switch the thrust of the research going forward to the heirs rather than the sires.


I suppose Valandil DID lose his father when he was only 13 and was king by the time he was 21.


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## Ent (Sep 28, 2022)

Well, the only comment I've found so far is that the lifespan of the Dúnedain of the North Kingdom and their descendents 'dwindled less rapidly' than those of the Dúnedain of Gondor. No reason given. But clearly lifespans continued to dwindle.

It may be one of those things in the end we 'just need to accept as written'. I've got a few more places to look later... that's it for now.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 28, 2022)

Yeah, that is all I've found also. 

Still, it makes sense.


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 28, 2022)

The Enting said:


> Well, the only comment I've found so far is that the lifespan of the Dúnedain of the North Kingdom and their descendents 'dwindled less rapidly' than those of the Dúnedain of Gondor. No reason given. But clearly lifespans continued to dwindle.
> 
> It may be one of those things in the end we 'just need to accept as written'. I've got a few more places to look later... that's it for now.


It looks like the Kings of Gondor lived longer than their northern kin. I'm unsure why.


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## Olorgando (Sep 29, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> It looks like the Kings of Gondor lived longer than their northern kin. I'm unsure why.


Having just plowed through Appendix A in RoTK, I can say that your impression is wrong.
The Appendix is a bit unsatisfactory in only giving the death dates of rulers in the Southern and Northern kingdoms, but I have found nothing better.

Isildur left his nephew Meneldil in charge of Minas Tirith => Gondor in the year 2 of the Third Age - and as we all know never made it "home" to Rivendell, where his fourth son, Valandil, too young for war, was being fostered. Well, by the time Valandil died in 249 Third Age, Gondor had been ruled by its third king, Eärendil, for 11 years. By the time Araphant, 22nd and last king of the North Kingdom (by then only Arthedain) died in 1964 TA of natural causes, the gap to the 22nd king of Gondor had ballooned to 330 years (Minardil, died in battle in 1634).

While "Arnor's" rulers dropped to the level of chieftainship after Arvedui's death, they kept the primogeniture line so important to patriarchies intact. Gondor's rulers had four breaks in this, two childless kings, the plague of 1636 TA, and Ondoher's two sons following him into battle against his orders in 1944 TA and perishing there.

Up to the close demise (in "historical" terms) of kingships in both the Northern kingdom (with Arvedui's death in 1944) and the Southern kingdom (due to Eärnur's idiotic rashness in 2050 TA), the rulers of the Southern kingdom averaged out to just over 68 years, while those of the north averages over 85 years.

The change to Ruling Stewards and Chieftains alters the averages drastically in favor of the north: a bit over 70 years for Aragorn II's ancestors to just over 37 for Denethor II's ...


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## Ent (Sep 29, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> Having just plowed through Appendix A in RoTK


Thank you for saving me the time on this one, Sir Curmudgeon. 

I have found the same, looking through the materials available on the "Line of the Stewards of Gondor" and the "line of Isildur" name by name, provided by another web source's research. (Same as produces "The Definitive Family Tree."

By and large the North has a "moderately" longer average lifespan though I've not had time to extract and average them all yet. But in a visual scan, it's fairly clear.


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 29, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> Having just plowed through Appendix A in RoTK, I can say that your impression is wrong.
> The Appendix is a bit unsatisfactory in only giving the death dates of rulers in the Southern and Northern kingdoms, but I have found nothing better.


It looks like the information is in The Peoples of Middle-Earth, Ch. VII "The Heirs of Elendil". I'm at work so I can't check them now


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## Ent (Sep 29, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> Peoples of Middle-Earth, Ch. VII "The Heirs of Elendil



I had looked at PoME earlier but may have missed something key. I'll check soon too... it's right here at my left branch.


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## Olorgando (Sep 29, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> It looks like the information is in The Peoples of Middle-Earth, Ch. VII "The Heirs of Elendil". I'm at work so I can't check them now


You're right, the Gondorian Kings did *live* longer than the Kings and Chieftains of the Northern line.
But the rulers of the Northern line consistently *became fathers* at a later age. And the gap widened over the centuries, up to 25 years later for the last kings of both realms. 8 of the first 9 kings of Gondor lived to see the birth of their great-grandsons respectively great grandnephews, which was not the case for any rulers of the Northern kingdom.

And the difference starts with the first grandsons of Elendil to become kings of the realms in Exile.
Meneldil, Anarion's son to whom Isildur entrusted the Southern Kingdom, was 111 years older than Isildur's only surviving son Valandil. In fact, Valandil was 30 years *younger* than his *nephew* Cemendur, Meneldi's son, and died 11 years later (249 to 238 TA).

Shifting generations are also common in our world, if not quite on the same scale.


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 29, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> You're right, the Gondorian Kings did *live* longer than the Kings and Chieftains of the Northern line.
> But the rulers of the Northern line consistently *became fathers* at a later age. And the gap widened over the centuries, up to 25 years later for the last kings of both realms. 8 of the first 9 kings of Gondor lived to see the birth of their great-grandsons respectively great grandnephews, which was not the case for any rulers of the Northern kingdom.
> 
> And the difference starts with the first grandsons of Elendil to become kings of the realms in Exile.
> ...


My mom has nieces older than her. Interesting. I wonder if it was the climate. Gondor was closer to Númenor.


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