# How did the half-elven choose their fate?



## e.Blackstar (Aug 27, 2010)

(copied from a post on a related thread that hasn't gotten any traffic for months, since this comment)

HOW were the half-elven able to choose? I didn't find much in my quick flip through the appendices, and Wikipedia merely made a point about the choice being "granted" by the Valar. So...what actually happens? Is this choice or the process every described in any way? Luthien died of grief so it never really came up with her, but what about Elrond and Elros, not to mention Arwen? Obviously 'being Elvish' is far more than just culture or genetics, so what is that divine gift, and how can it be put on the table? It seems obvious that though it can be given up, it can't be given back by the Valar...as someone pointed out earlier in the thread, Elrond's children (or any elf, really) can choose a mortal life but Man (even the Numenorians) cannot elevate themselves to immortality with the Elves. Any thoughts or evidence?


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## Prince of Cats (Aug 28, 2010)

I always figured it hinged on who you share a bed with


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## e.Blackstar (Aug 30, 2010)

Your flippancy is noted.


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## Confusticated (Sep 5, 2010)

I agree the difference is not genetic. And though the elves were culturally different, this was because of and not the cause of their immortality. The difference between man and elf as I understand it is in the relationship of the elf's soul with his body, and the fact of him being tied to the world, never leaving it even when he dies.

I have only speculated about what happens within the half elf when he chooses to be mortal. My short theory is that his spirit is released from its bounds to the world, and as a result of that loses its own harmony with its body...resulting in physical aging and in some like Elros eventually a desire to die and go beyond the world. It is interesting that even Arwen, one who had somewhat lived as an elf up until her decision to become mortal, was prone to that fear of death that afflicts man as a result of his original Fall. One would think that being of elven culture and wisdom, that she of all women in Middle-earth would be at peace to accept the gift given to Men, especially since it would mean that her and Aragorn (who accepted his fate) might stay together beyond the confines of the world.

It seems that she might have lost faith as she aged. If this could happen to her then it is no wonder it happens to mortals of human culture.

It would be interesting to know how her death compared to Luthien's second death. I get the impression that Arwen did not handle it as well as Luthien must have. If that is the case, I wonder if the cause was Arwen spending her life among Men after her marriage to Aragorn instead of among the elves as Beren and Luthien did. Arwen and Aragorn also had not been through the turmoil Beren and Luthien had together. Or witnessed Mandos firsthand. Neither did Arwen grow up with a Maia for a mother.

I rambled... :*o


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## Prince of Cats (Sep 6, 2010)

Nóm said:


> It seems that *she might have lost faith* as she aged. If this could happen to her then it is no wonder it happens to mortals of human culture.


 
Was Elrond enthusiastic about her passing? Or was his apprehension just racism?


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## Elf of cave (Sep 6, 2010)

> Elrond's children (or any elf, really) can choose a mortal life but Man (even the Numenorians) cannot elevate themselves to immortality with the Elves.



There is one coincident of an Elf achieving a mortal fate, which is Lúthien who asked to change her fate so she could be with Beren. It says that Mandos was moved by her plight and restored them both to life, but as it is made quite clear that it was Eru who granted immortality to the Firstborn and offered the Gift to men, and that the Valar could not change that, Luthíen’s request was granted due to Eru’s intervention (and likely only because Beren and Luthíen still had a part to play in the music of Arda).

And then there is Tuor, who was (possible) granted the life of the Eldar. Perhaps it was because of Luthíen being allowed to follow Beren where no Elf can go that Tuor was gifted with the fate of the Eldar - to restore the balance…

Then there are the half-elves, and I agree with what Nóm said. The way I see it, the choice of the Peredhil essentially comes down to choosing their fate. Only two fates exist: Elves (Valar and Maiar) exist as long as Arda exists and they “age” as Arda ages. Mortals die and pass beyond the circles of Arda, and they age at a much quicker rate. 

So when Elros (and Arwen) chose the fate of Men their biological clock was set to “mortal” time (not so much in the sense of aging at the same speed as mortals, but more in the sense that their time in Arda was limited. Elros’ elven blood, for instance, gave him a longer lifespan than all other Men). And this seems to me to be the reason why Elros’ (and Arwen’s) descendants had no choice when Elrond’s children did. Elros chose mortality so his biological clock was not tuned to Arda, but to that of mortals, and his children, being born of that blood, moved in sync with it. To go from mortal to immortal life would be immeasurably hard.

It seems far “easier” speed up the aging process, which (in the case of Elrond’s children for as long as their father stayed in Middle-earth) has been in sync with Arda, rather than the other way around.

Also, the “small” matter of fate plays a major role:



> Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the Eruhini (in whose conception and creation the Valar had no part at all) it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case: the cases of Lúthien (and Túor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God. The entering into Men of the Elven-strain is indeed represented as part of a Divine Plan for the ennoblement of the Human Race, from the beginning destined to replace the Elves.
> 
> The view is that the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's fate they will share.
> 
> (Letter No. 153)





> It is interesting that even Arwen, one who had somewhat lived as an elf up until her decision to become mortal, was prone to that fear of death that afflicts man as a result of his original Fall. One would think that being of elven culture and wisdom, that she of all women in Middle-earth would be at peace to accept the gift given to Men, especially since it would mean that her and Aragorn (who accepted his fate) might stay together beyond the confines of the world.



I think the reason Arwen feared death was because she, like Eärendíl, chose to be with her beloved rather than choose the kindred her heart belonged too. Also it says that she “was not yet weary of her days…” (Appendix A), so being Elven of nature, and not tired of the world, was what made mortality especially bitter for Arwen. I believe that had Arwen been weary of the world at the time Aragorn laid down his life, they would have gone together like Beren and Lúthien.


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## Confusticated (Sep 6, 2010)

Prince of Cats said:


> Was Elrond enthusiastic about her passing? Or was his apprehension just racism?


 
Well maybe he knew she would be unhappy in the end. And the very least he would be sundered from his daughter, for eternity for all he knew.



Elf of Cave said:


> I think the reason Arwen feared death was because she, like Eärendíl, chose to be with her beloved rather than choose the kindred her heart belonged too.


 
Good pooint.:*up


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## Elthir (Sep 7, 2010)

Elf of cave said:


> (...) So when Elros (and Arwen) chose the fate of Men their biological clock was set to “mortal” time (not so much in the sense of aging at the same speed as mortals, but more in the sense that their time in Arda was limited. Elros’ elven blood, for instance, gave him a longer lifespan than all other Men). And this seems to me to be the reason why Elros’ (and Arwen’s) descendants had no choice when Elrond’s children did. Elros chose mortality so his biological clock was not tuned to Arda, but to that of mortals, and his children, being born of that blood, moved in sync with it. To go from mortal to immortal life would be immeasurably hard.


 
I have a theory based on something written in the Silmarillion as it stood in the later 1930s (!). But first, something Tolkien noted in letter 153:

'Earendil is Túor's son & father of Elros ... and Elrond, their mother being Elwing daughter of Dior, son of Beren and Lúthien: so the problem of the Half-elven becomes united in one line. The view is that the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's fate they will share. Elros chose to be a King and 'longaevus' but mortal, so all his descendants are mortal, and of a specially noble race, but with dwindling longevity... Elrond chose to be among the Elves. His children – with a renewed Elvish strain, since their mother was Celebrían dtr. of Galadriel – have to make their choices. ....' JRRT Letter 153 


Is Tolkien simply digressing here and pointing out that there is a renewed Elvish strain because of Celebrian -- then adding that the children have to make their choices? Or is he implying that that's _why_ (or part of why) they have to make their choices?

If the latter I'm not sure I understand why more Elvish blood should make a difference. Elrond's children still have a measure of mortal blood in any case. So, not wholly satisfied with that (and again, not wholly sure that Tolkien necessarily means that in the first place), my idea is based on the Quenta Silmarillion (Lost Road version) description that all who have a measure of mortal blood are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them.

_If that's true_ we might see why Elrond's children are allowed to choose -- because otherwise they would be automatically sundered from Elrond in fate and death -- having mortal blood. Elros' children however, will not be sundered from him, and with Elros' choice the 'natural order' is restored in his line (they have mortal blood, and thus are mortal in fate and death). Essentially, the potential choice of an Elven fate 'must' (to be fair from the start) include an extension to the children.

Again this is my explanation not Tolkien's, though based on his text; but I think it well explains the extension of the choice to Elrond's children, but not Elros' children.


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## Elanor2 (Oct 28, 2010)

If I remember correctly, when the question of the Choice was discussed among the Valar, Mandos was against it because he stated that those with human blood should always receive the Gift of Mortality. Mandos is the only one with Iluvatar that knows what this mortality implies and it seems important to him that the half-elven follow it as well for some reason.

The half-elven that were given the choice were exceptions because of the sacrifice of their familes on behalf of both races and it seems that if you choose to accept the Gift of Mortality there is no going back (like Elros), but if you reject it (like Elrond), your descendants can still change their minds later and follow their true natures. This is my theory as to why Arwen can still be human but Aragorn cannot be elf.

Another point: In ROTK it is mentioned that the prince of Dol Amroth (I do not have the books with me, so forgive the spelling) has some elvish blood in him. It seem that there has been more intermarriages than we thought, perhaps during the second age? Anyway, these ofspring does not seem to have been given any choice. Interesting.


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## Elthir (Oct 28, 2010)

In my opinion the union of Elves and Men was meant to be rare in Tolkien's world. 

'-- The Elder Children, doomed to fade before the Followers (Men), and to live ultimately only by the thin line of their blood that was mingled with that of Men, among whom it was the only real claim to 'nobility' letter 144, 1954 

'Elves an Men are evidently in biological terms one race, or they could not breed and produce offspring -- even as a rare event: there are 2 cases only in my legends of such unions, and they are merged in the descendants of Earendil.' draft letter 153, 1954 (a footnote here basically says one would expect three cases). 

'Nay, adaneth, if any marriage can be between our kindred and thine, then it shall be for some high purpose of Doom. Brief it will be and hard at the end. Yea, the least cruel fate that could befall would be that death soon should end it.' Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth

Of course in the last example this is Finrod speaking, a character _within_ the tale, but I still think it's an internal reflection of the idea that Elf-human marriages were generally supposed to be rare, keeping in mind the swift death of the mortal partner, from the perspective of the 'immortal' anyway. If the legend Legolas refers to is true I don't think it opens the flood gates to all kinds of unions between Elves and mortals (not that anyone said it did). 

And if true, Mithrellas need not be an Elda, preserving the statement made in the Appendices (technically Arwen was not an Elf but apparently she was considered Eldarin enough to count).

Just my opinion. Other unions are certainly possible of course, and we know relatively little about the Avari, for example. Tolkien's introduction of the legend does make one wonder. But if forced to decide, I think the focus was more on the 'thin line' revealed than the possibility of unrevealed unions. The latter might tend to water down the importance and notability of the former, despite that the blood mixing with Men was Eldarin (notable in this respect). ​


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