# How is Gandalf serving as a Steward?



## Ent (Jul 7, 2022)

In what way, and for whom, is Gandalf serving as a Steward?


> 'Unless the king should come again?’ said Gandalf. ‘Well, my lord Steward, it is your task to keep some kingdom still against that event, which few now look to see. In that task you shall have all the aid that you are pleased to ask for. But I will say this: the rule of no realm is mine, neither of Gondor nor any other, great or small. But all worthy things that are in peril as the world now stands, those are my care. And for my part, I shall not wholly fail of my task, though Gondor should perish, if anything passes through this night that can still grow fair or bear fruit and flower again in days to come. *For I also am a steward. Did you not know*?’ And with that he turned and strode from the hall with Pippin running at his side.


(Tolkien, J.R.R.. The Lord of the Rings: One Volume (p. 758). HMH Books. Kindle Edition. Gandalf speaking to Denethor II.)

Given all we know about Stewards, and that Gandalf is playing directly off Denethor II's comment that he was serving as "Steward" (one ruling over a kingdom in absence of the King), how do we see Gandalf's Stewardship, and for whom?

There are clues within the paragraph itself... but I am curious as to what other discussions have been held about it, and have difficulty finding any.
Perhaps it's just so obvious it doesn't need any chatter?!

It is interesting to me too, that it's the 'white wand' that designates the Stewards... and we see Saruman the White as the chief Istari, then Gandalf the White.
There is most likely a connection here as well.


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## Gothmog (Jul 7, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> In what way, and for whom, is Gandalf serving as a Steward?
> 
> 'Unless the king should come again?’ said Gandalf. ‘Well, my lord Steward, it is your task to keep some kingdom still against that event, which few now look to see. In that task you shall have all the aid that you are pleased to ask for. But I will say this: the rule of no realm is mine, neither of Gondor nor any other, great or small. But all worthy things that are in peril as the world now stands, those are my care. And for my part, I shall not wholly fail of my task, though Gondor should perish, if anything passes through this night that can still grow fair or bear fruit and flower again in days to come. *For I also am a steward. Did you not know*?’ And with that he turned and strode from the hall with Pippin running at his side. (Tolkien, J.R.R.. The Lord of the Rings: One Volume (p. 758). HMH Books. Kindle Edition.)
> 
> ...


This is not "all we know abut Stewards". The fact that Denethor II is acting in place of the King and ruling Gondor is in accord with the meaning of "a person who administers the property, house, finances, etc, of another". Gandalf is speaking in accord with the equally important meaning of "any person who has responsibility for the maintenance or conservation of something _a good steward of the economy_"

Both meanings apply equally to Denethor in that he is the administrator ruling in the name of the King and also being responsible for maintaining Gondor until the king should come again.


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## Ent (Jul 7, 2022)

Gothmog said:


> This is not "all we know abut Stewards". The fact that Denethor II is acting in place of the King and ruling Gondor is in accord with the meaning of "a person who administers the property, house, finances, etc, of another". Gandalf is speaking in accord with the equally important meaning of "any person who has responsibility for the maintenance or conservation of something _a good steward of the economy_"
> 
> Both meanings apply equally to Denethor in that he is the administrator ruling in the name of the King and also being responsible for maintaining Gondor until the king should come again.



AHA. Thus Gandalf says this: 
. "But I will say this: the rule of no realm is mine, neither of Gondor nor any other, great or small. But all worthy things that are in peril as the world now stands, those are my care. And for my part, I shall not wholly fail of my task, though Gondor should perish, if anything passes through this night that can still grow fair or bear fruit and flower again in days to come.

And this defines the extents and limitations of his Stewardship.

And he stewards directly for the Valar with the consent of Eru, as noted in "Unfinished Tales."

"Emissaries they were from the Lords of the West, the Valar, who still took counsel for the governance of Middle-earth, and when the shadow of Sauron began first to stir again took this means of resisting him. For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years. And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed; whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men or Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt.

"Of this Order the number is unknown; but of those that came to the North of Middle-earth, where there was most hope (because of the remnant of the Dúnedain and of the Eldar that abode there), the chiefs were five. The first to come was one of noble mien and bearing, with raven hair, and a fair voice, and he was clad in white; great skill he had in works of hand, and he was regarded by well-nigh all, even by the Eldar, as the head of the Order. Others there were also: two clad in sea-blue, and one in earthen brown; and last came one who seemed the least, less tall than the others, and in looks more aged, grey-haired and grey-clad, and leaning on a staff. But Círdan from their first meeting at the Grey Havens divined in him the greatest spirit and the wisest; and he welcomed him with reverence, and he gave to his keeping the Third Ring, Narya the Red."

Thank you for resetting my 'mind's eye' on the issue of the extents and limitations of the Stewardship in view.
Tolkien, J.R.R.. Unfinished Tales of Numenor and Middle-earth (p. 373). HMH Books. Kindle Edition.


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## Olorgando (Jul 7, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> In what way, and for whom, is Gandalf serving as a Steward?


My spontaneous response would be as the Steward of Manwë.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Jul 7, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> In what way, and for whom, is Gandalf serving as a Steward?
> 
> 'Unless the king should come again?’ said Gandalf. ‘Well, my lord Steward, it is your task to keep some kingdom still against that event, which few now look to see. In that task you shall have all the aid that you are pleased to ask for. But I will say this: the rule of no realm is mine, neither of Gondor nor any other, great or small. But all worthy things that are in peril as the world now stands, those are my care. And for my part, I shall not wholly fail of my task, though Gondor should perish, if anything passes through this night that can still grow fair or bear fruit and flower again in days to come. *For I also am a steward. Did you not know*?’ And with that he turned and strode from the hall with Pippin running at his side. (Tolkien, J.R.R.. The Lord of the Rings: One Volume (p. 758). HMH Books. Kindle Edition. Gandalf speaking to Denethor II.)
> 
> ...


Reading through this, I first want to address that it is a good question, and one I pondered as I have read it over years, but for some unknown reason did not bring up on this Forum. 

My immediate thought is that perhaps Gandalf is speaking about his _stewardship _if you will, in the place of Saruman, since his fall to darkness. For Gandalf seems to become almost a greater, but at least an equal wizard to Saruman, and because of that, it is almost as if he took his place, as a steward, because of the ill deeds that befell them, and the hope that Saruman the White would change his evil ways, and come back to the ways of light and of goodness. Thus, this does not specifically act as a stewardship of a certain land, watching the land, awaiting the return of him whose rightful place is indeed the throne, but rather a much larger realm being that of Middle-Earth, and even perhaps of the lands beyond it. The reason I think that Gandalf is almost standing in place of Saruman is this:


> He laid his hand on Gimli's head, and the Dwarf looked up and laughed suddenly. 'Gandalf!' he said. 'But you are all in white!' 'Yes, I am in white now,' said Gandalf. 'Indeed I _am _Saruman, one might almost say, Saruman as he should have been.' ---The Lord of the Rings, The Two Towers, J.R.R. Tolkien


Because of that one sentence: *'Indeed I am Saruman, one might almost say, Saruman as he should have been.' *It certainly seems like Gandalf is almost standing place as a steward of the world, because of the fall of Saruman. Just a thought.


Another thought of mine was much like what Gothmog previously stated. Being a steward means to take care of something, and preserve it from corruption. Gandalf might very well have been hinting that his job was to keep the world from corruption, and be very much a remedy for the world, while at the same time stating in a subtle phrase, that Denethor II was not doing his job of being a steward properly. He says that all things worthy are in his care, and to me this also almost hints at the Valar. Perhaps, he was also referencing his much bigger role as a Maia, and telling Denethor in a very calm and subdued way that he should stop standing in the way of Gandalf's own purposes, and heed his advice towards the Realm of Gondor. 

I must say, this is a very intriguing topic, and I will look forward to seeing further replies from you (@Well-aged Enting ) and from others who are interested in this post.

Thank you.


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## Gothmog (Jul 7, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Reading through this, I first want to address that it is a good question, and one I pondered as I have read it over years, but for some unknown reason did not bring up on this Forum.
> 
> My immediate thought is that perhaps Gandalf is speaking about his _stewardship _if you will, in the place of Saruman, since his fall to darkness. For Gandalf seems to become almost a greater, but at least an equal wizard to Saruman, and because of that, it is almost as if he took his place, as a steward, because of the ill deeds that befell them, and the hope that Saruman the White would change his evil ways, and come back to the ways of light and of goodness. Thus, this does not specifically act as a stewardship of a certain land, watching the land, awaiting the return of him whose rightful place is indeed the throne, but rather a much larger realm being that of Middle-Earth, and even perhaps of the lands beyond it. The reason I think that Gandalf is almost standing in place of Saruman is this:
> 
> ...


Gandalf was not "almost standing place as a steward of the world, because of the fall of Saruman". The five Istari were sent as emissaries, stewards and guides to Middle-earth. It was only Gandalf that stayed true to this mission. When Saruman was made head of the White Council, he became, as it were, Chief Steward. When Saruman turned to evil Gandalf was left as the only remaining Steward from the five.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Jul 8, 2022)

Gothmog said:


> Gandalf was not "almost standing place as a steward of the world, because of the fall of Saruman". The five Istari were sent as emissaries, stewards and guides to Middle-earth. It was only Gandalf that stayed true to this mission. When Saruman was made head of the White Council, he became, as it were, Chief Steward. When Saruman turned to evil Gandalf was left as the only remaining Steward from the five.


This is true. Thanks for the correction. I will have to reread information about the Istari. Saruman fell from his mission, when he fell to darkness. This makes sense. Then I am guessing that Gandalf was stating to be a steward because he (along with all the other Istari) was sent to preserve the world from harm, and to be a guide, and emissary. 

Did Gandalf then become the head of the White Council after the fall of Saruman? Or did things remain as was, simply without Councils?


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## Gothmog (Jul 8, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Did Gandalf then become the head of the White Council after the fall of Saruman? Or did things remain as was, simply without Councils?


I don't think there was actual need of the White Council after the point that Saruman showed himself to have fallen. But I would expect that Gandalf would have been the head had it been.


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## Ent (Jul 8, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Reading through this, I first want to address that it is a good question, and one I pondered as I have read it over years, but for some unknown reason did not bring up on this Forum.
> 
> My immediate thought is that perhaps Gandalf is speaking about his _stewardship _if you will, in the place of Saruman, since his fall to darkness. For Gandalf seems to become almost a greater, but at least an equal wizard to Saruman, and because of that, it is almost as if he took his place, as a steward, because of the ill deeds that befell them, and the hope that Saruman the White would change his evil ways, and come back to the ways of light and of goodness. Thus, this does not specifically act as a stewardship of a certain land, watching the land, awaiting the return of him whose rightful place is indeed the throne, but rather a much larger realm being that of Middle-Earth, and even perhaps of the lands beyond it. The reason I think that Gandalf is almost standing in place of Saruman is this:
> 
> ...



Here we should remember too, I think, that Gandalf says "
"Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell. ‘Naked *I was sent back* – for a brief time, *until my task is done*." And he was sent back as 'the White' - the symbol of Stewardship.

He speaks now individually. He alone has a task...and he is sent back as "the White", the symbol of Stewardship, though his role as an 'emissary' is not diminished. The Istari were all 'emissaries', but not Stewards. There can only be one 'Steward' holding the 'white scepter' as it were. The text says: "Emissaries they were from the Lords of the West, the Valar..." nowhere mentioning they were 'guides and stewards' as well (that I have found.) (Unfinished Tales).

Emissaries are 'representatives' of the one(s) from whom they are sent. Stewards have a 'charge' - a 'responsibility' - that exceeds that.

Regarding Radagast and Gandalf being "the last", we do read this in "Unfinished Tales"
. "Indeed, of all the Istari, one only remained faithful, and he was the last-comer. For Radagast, the fourth, became enamoured of the many beasts and birds that dwelt in Middle-earth, and forsook Elves and Men, and spent his days among the wild creatures. Thus he got his name (which is in the tongue of Númenór of old, and signifies, it is said, ‘tender of beasts’). And Curunír’Lân, Saruman the White, fell from his high errand, and becoming proud and impatient and enamoured of power sought to have his own will by force, and to oust Sauron; but he was ensnared by that dark spirit, mightier than he."

As a side note, though Saruman was originally chosen as the Steward (White), Cirdan did not recognize him as the best choice, giving Narya to Mithrander instead, the last of the Istari to arrive. instead. "
"In about the thousandth year of the Third Age the Wizard Gandalf the Grey arrived at the Grey Havens; Círdan then surrendered the Ring Narya to him; for he knew whither Mithrandir came and when he would depart."



Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> ption, and be very much a remedy for the world, while at the same time stating in a subtle phrase, that Denethor II was not doing his job of being a steward properly. He says that all things worthy are in his care, and to me this also almost hints at the Valar. Perhaps, he was also referencing his much bigger role as a Maia, and telling Denethor in a very calm and subdued way that he should stop standing in the way of Gandalf's own purposes, and heed his advice towards the Realm of Gondor.
> 
> I must say, this is a very intriguing topic, and I will look forward to seeing further replies from you (@Well-aged Enting ) and from others who are interested in this post.
> 
> Thank you.



Indeed


Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> This is true. Thanks for the correction. I will have to reread information about the Istari. Saruman fell from his mission, when he fell to darkness. This makes sense. Then I am guessing that Gandalf was stating to be a steward because he (along with all the other Istari) was sent to preserve the world from harm, and to be a guide, and emissary.
> 
> Did Gandalf then become the head of the White Council after the fall of Saruman? Or did things remain as was, simply without Councils?


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## d4rk3lf (Jul 8, 2022)

I, somehow, always connected the sentence: "For I _am also_ a _steward_. _Did you not know_?"
with what Gandalf said earlier in confrontation with Balrog
"*I am a servant of the Secret Fire,* wielder of the flame of Anor...."

Now, when he confronted Balrog he was "the gray", so servant of secret fire, sound plausible. 
But now (while white), he might become keeper/guardian of the secret fire... and steward is also a good word.


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## Ent (Jul 8, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> I, somehow, always connected the sentence: "For I _am also_ a _steward_. _Did you not know_?"
> with what Gandalf said earlier in confrontation with Balrog
> "*I am a servant of the Secret Fire,* wielder of the flame of Anor...."
> 
> ...



Certainly his "service" to the Secret Fire is as a part of the fulfillment of the Ainur's music -

"In the beginning Eru, the One, who in the Elvish tongue is named Ilúvatar, made the Ainur of his thought; and they made a great Music before him. In this Music the World was begun; for Ilúvatar made visible the song of the Ainur, and they beheld it as a light in the darkness. And many among them became enamoured of its beauty, and of its history which they saw beginning and unfolding as in a vision. Therefore Ilúvatar gave to their vision Being, and set it amid the Void, and the Secret Fire was sent to burn at the heart of the World; and it was called Eä.

"Then those of the Ainur who desired it arose and entered into the World at the beginning of Time; and it was their task to achieve it, and by their labours to fulfil the vision which they had seen. Long they laboured in the regions of Eä, which are vast beyond the thought of Elves and Men, until in the time appointed was made Arda, the Kingdom of Earth. Then they put on the raiment of Earth and descended into it, and dwelt therein." Silmarillion - Valaquenta

So this supports Gandalf's statement "But all worthy things that are in peril as the world now stands, those are my care". He had been sent to protect that good as Steward on their behalf.

Wielder of the Flame of Anor speaks more of the "tools" he had available to aid in accomplishing his stewardship, than the stewardship itself. 

Thanks for these connections..!

I think I'll start an essay on "THE STEWARDSHIP OF GANDALF" at this point.

Maybe I can post it here somehow so everybody can send me their comments / adjustments / corrections / re-training.
Then I can complete it accurately.

I wonder too if the Wiki for Gandalf could use a section on "The Stewardship of Gandalf". Perhaps some enterprising Wiki editor can consider adding that, if it has any value. It's not something I see discussed anywhere, though I find it interesting and pertinent to his whole existence in the Lore myself.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jul 8, 2022)

Interesting topic, and as you say, the quote in your OP is suggestive.

One possible contrast between Denethor and Gandalf may lie in a part you didn't include: Denethor's words just before this:


> 'Yet the Lord of Gondor is not to be made the tool of other men's purposes, however worthy. And to him there is no purpose higher in the world as it now stands than the good of Gondor; and the *rule *of Gondor, my lord, is mine and no other man's, unless the king should come again. '


My emphasis -- but Denethor himself appears to be emphasizing the role of _ruler_, and Gandalf's reply 'the rule of no realm is mine' is in contrast to that.

I think it might go further, though. Notice that Denethor calls himself the "Lord of Gondor", and in a passage just previous to the one I quoted, addresses Gandalf as "my Lord Mithrandir", a title, unless I'm mistaken, which is given by no one else in the story. Certainly Gandalf didn't consider himself a "Lord", any more than a ruler. And in fact we note that Gandalf addresses Denethor as "my lord" and "my lord Steward" -- lower case. I think this is deliberate on Tolkien's part, and the emphasis is on the capitalized "Steward", in its meaning of _servant_, as opposed to "Lord", and its connotation as _ruler_. Despite the outward display of humble service shown in the plain white rod and the "unadorned chair" on the lowest step in the throne room, Denethor had come to see himself more as ruler than servant. Understandable, given the long absence of the kings, but I think I see in Gandalf's words a kind of unspoken rebuke to that idea.

Mention of Denethor's rod suggests another contrast: that with Gandalf's staff. Here the contrast is in the context of literary mode, whether fictional or thematic. To use Northop Frye's terms, Denethor's world is that of the High Mimetic mode, in which the themes and symbols of rule and order predominate. Gandalf is a character of Romance mode, in which "the ordinary laws of nature are slightly suspended"; Denethor has nothing of "magic" about him, but Gandalf certainly does, and his staff is the wizard's traditional magic wand.

The Romance world is a pastoral world, and we should expect associated imagery, of flocks and shepherds. And in fact the staff of a wizard is easily morphed into the shepherd's crook, an ancient symbol. It appears often in the Bible. We make an exception to the forum rule against discussion of religion when talking about Tolkien's views about, and uses of it, and it's in that context I cite Psalm 23. I have a vague memory of a reference in one of the Letters, though I haven't gone through them looking for it; if anyone knows where it is, or can correct my memory, I'll appreciate it.

The psalm features pastoral imagery of Shepherd; most will be familiar with the KJV, and the line "He leadeth me into the paths of righteousness", but this is slightly different from the original, a more accurate translation of which would be "He leads me to _right paths_", that is, as a shepherd guides his flock, leading them away from danger,, toward the "green pastures". This, as the essay on the Istari quoted above makes clear, is Gandalf's role: not _ruler_, but _guide._

It should be noted that the shepherd is not traditionally thought of as the _owner _of the flock, any more than the pastor (a word derived from pastoral) of a church is the "owner" of his; both are "stewards".

As a final suggestion along these lines, you may want to investigate the significance of "steward" and "stewardship" in the Bible, and in Tolkien's own Roman Catholicism, both of which he drew on for much of his imagery.


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## Ent (Jul 8, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Interesting topic, and as you say, the quote in your OP is suggestive.
> 
> One possible contrast between Denethor and Gandalf may lie in a part you didn't include: Denethor's words just before this:
> 
> ...



All good points, thank you.
I'm quite familiar with the significance of "steward" Biblically, from both the original Hebrew and Greek word meanings.
I confess to a lack of information and understanding regarding the Catholic application of the word however, which I will rectify. 

I think also key in the differentiation between the contrasting of Denethor II and Gandalf as you've cited and written, are: 
1) Denethor's focus on one 'small' realm and purpose within the world, i.e. Gondor, while Gandalf's stewardship is far, far broader - in fact so broad as to "disallow" (so to speak) consideration of a single kingdom, and; 
2) Denethor says "not to be made the tool of other *men's* purposes, however worthy." This signifies in his pride he's either ignoring who Gandalf really is, or purposely insulting Gandalf. Gandalf is no mere 'man'.

I agree with you certainly that Gandalf's response contains rebuke - upon several points..!

Keep it coming. It's all feeding directly into the fabric of the essay..!!!


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## Gothmog (Jul 8, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> Here we should remember too, I think, that Gandalf says "
> "Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell. ‘Naked *I was sent back* – for a brief time, *until my task is done*." And he was sent back as 'the White' - the symbol of Stewardship.
> 
> He speaks now individually. He alone has a task...and he is sent back as "the White", the symbol of Stewardship, though his role as an 'emissary' is not diminished. The Istari were all 'emissaries', but not Stewards. There can only be one 'Steward' holding the 'white scepter' as it were. The text says: "Emissaries they were from the Lords of the West, the Valar..." nowhere mentioning they were 'guides and stewards' as well (that I have found.) (Unfinished Tales).
> ...


Of course he is now speaking individually. Saruman has been cast out, Radaghast has turned from the mission and the Blue Istari are lost in the East. Only Gandalf has remained true to the mission and therefore is the only steward left of those sent from the West.


> UT: The Istari
> And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed; whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men and Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt.


Advising and persuading is the main part of being a guide in such circumstances. As for stewardship, do you think that in persuading Men and Elves to battle Sauron they would not also be trying to save what they could of anything that can still grow fair or bear fruit and flower again in days to come?

While it is true that there is in Gondor only one Steward holding the rod of the Steward, this does not limit us to only One Steward, if this were the case then Gandalf himself could not claim that title. The Steward of Gondor holds and uses the power of the King. Gondor originally had two Kings Isildur and Anarion, while Arnor had one King Elendil who was also the High King of the Dunedain of both Kingdoms. Depending on how large an area, or how much work is needed to be done you can have one, two, or many stewards with one Chief Steward that the others report to and is in charge. Denethor is concerned with Gondor Only. The Istari are concerned with an area somewhat larger since it includes not only Gondor and Arnor, but the whole of Middle-earth, North, South and East.


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## Ent (Jul 8, 2022)

Gothmog said:


> Of course he is now speaking individually. Saruman has been cast out, Radaghast has turned from the mission and the Blue Istari are lost in the East. Only Gandalf has remained true to the mission and therefore is the only steward left of those sent from the West.
> 
> Advising and persuading is the main part of being a guide in such circumstances. As for stewardship, do you think that in persuading Men and Elves to battle Sauron they would not also be trying to save what they could of anything that can still grow fair or bear fruit and flower again in days to come?
> 
> While it is true that there is in Gondor only one Steward holding the rod of the Steward, this does not limit us to only One Steward, if this were the case then Gandalf himself could not claim that title. The Steward of Gondor holds and uses the power of the King. Gondor originally had two Kings Isildur and Anarion, while Arnor had one King Elendil who was also the High King of the Dunedain of both Kingdoms. Depending on how large an area, or how much work is needed to be done you can have one, two, or many stewards with one Chief Steward that the others report to and is in charge. Denethor is concerned with Gondor Only. The Istari are concerned with an area somewhat larger since it includes not only Gondor and Arnor, but the whole of Middle-earth, North, South and East.



More good points. Though I misunderstand this part:
"While it is true that there is in Gondor only one Steward holding the rod of the Steward, this does not limit us to only One Steward, if this were the case then Gandalf himself could not claim that title."

I don't think I said or implied we were limited to *only* one Steward - but I do believe we may be limited to only one Steward of a "kingdom" (or in the Istari's case, one Steward of the responsibility they were given, as a group, to discharge.)

They are all "emissaries" - speaking for and on behalf of the one who sent them... (via the Ainur)... but among them there is only one who is seated as the "head of the council" (Steward) of the "realm" they are charged with executing the plan on behalf of.

I certainly admit this is my personal take and it is not directly supported by written evidence. It's support seems to me to come from the fact that both claim the title of Steward, with its intrinsic meaning, and from the parallel associations with the evidence of the rest of the writing surrounding the purposes and trappings of a "Steward" as revealed in the Writings.

That said, another interesting study I'm embarking on, is the total uses of "steward" vs. "Steward" and their application throughout.
"Steward" applied to Denethor by Gandalf is capitalized.
Gandalf says of himself he is "also a steward" - (note, not 'the' steward and not capitalized).
There is a clear distinction here - and with the other uses of steward throughout all the Writings.
These are distinctions Tolkien would have included for a Reason, not just something he was missing.
(Clearly, "Steward" when part of an official title is used... but there seem to be other distinctions applied as well.)

Anyway, more to study before a final conclusion is reached here.

It may indeed be reaching a bit to far to say Saruman was the "Steward" of the responsibilities given the Istari and so was "the White" and Gandalf becoming "the White" signified a change of that stewardship.

Gandalf was already "the White" when he was talking with Denethor II, and if that signified a change in the "Steward" he would probably not have said he was "a steward" (without good reason).

More exciting stuff to work on. Thanks...


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## Gothmog (Jul 8, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> More good points. Though I misunderstand this part:
> "While it is true that there is in Gondor only one Steward holding the rod of the Steward, this does not limit us to only One Steward, if this were the case then Gandalf himself could not claim that title."
> 
> I don't think I said or implied we were limited to *only* one Steward - but I do believe we may be limited to only one Steward of a "kingdom" (or in the Istari's case, one Steward of the responsibility they were given, as a group, to discharge.)


 
I was starting to point out something about Gondor and also showing that there can be stewards with different responsibilities. Why would we be limited to only one Steward of a “kingdom” especially when that “kingdom” was founded with joint Kings? And as for the Istari, they were given responsibility as a group and there for would be a group of stewards.


Well-aged Enting said:


> They are all "emissaries" - speaking for and on behalf of the one who sent them... (via the Ainur)... but among them there is only one who is seated as the "head of the council" (Steward) of the "realm" they are charged with executing the plan on behalf of.


 
You seem to think that the White Council and the Istari are synonymous and that it was the Istari that created it. The White Council had only two of the Istari and Gandalf was the preferred “Head” but did not want the position.


Well-aged Enting said:


> I certainly admit this is my personal take and it is not directly supported by written evidence. It's support seems to me to come from the fact that both claim the title of Steward, with its intrinsic meaning, and from the parallel associations with the evidence of the rest of the writing surrounding the purposes and trappings of a "Steward" as revealed in the Writings.
> 
> That said, another interesting study I'm embarking on, is the total uses of "steward" vs. "Steward" and their application throughout.
> "Steward" applied to Denethor by Gandalf is capitalized.
> ...


 
Here you note that Gandalf refers to himself as “also a steward”, even when he is the last of the Istari to remain true to the mission, he still considers him self as simply a steward who is looking to protect and preserve not a Steward who rules. There can be many stewards but there would be One Chief Steward especially when the area covered or the work-load is too large for one person.



Well-aged Enting said:


> Anyway, more to study before a final conclusion is reached here.
> 
> It may indeed be reaching a bit to far to say Saruman was the "Steward" of the responsibilities given the Istari and so was "the White" and Gandalf becoming "the White" signified a change of that stewardship.


 
Saruman was not “The Steward” but as the acknowledged head of the Istari Order (as noted by Gandalf) he would have been the Chief Steward while he remained true to the mission. This would have been true even if Gandalf had accepted the position of “Head of the White Council” However, the whole of Middle-earth is too great an area to be under the direct concern of one person, even an Istar.


Well-aged Enting said:


> Gandalf was already "the White" when he was talking with Denethor II, and if that signified a change in the "Steward" he would probably not have said he was "a steward" (without good reason).
> 
> More exciting stuff to work on. Thanks...


 
My point exactly. He was not a Ruling Steward and while he knew of the fall of Saruman and the failings of Radagast, as far as he knew there were still two other Istari stewards so he was “a steward” one of a group.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Jul 8, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Interesting topic, and as you say, the quote in your OP is suggestive.
> 
> One possible contrast between Denethor and Gandalf may lie in a part you didn't include: Denethor's words just before this:
> 
> ...


A long post for the Chief of the Cellrogs! 

I love this topic.


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## Ent (Jul 8, 2022)

Gothmog said:


> I don't think there was actual need of the White Council after the point that Saruman showed himself to have fallen. But I would expect that Gandalf would have been the head had it been.



Just a note: on this point we recall at the Council of Elrond, Gandalf speaks these words:

"Then *for the last time* the Council met; for now we learned that he was seeking ever more eagerly for the One." (Tolkien, J.R.R.. The Lord of the Rings: One Volume (p. 250). HMH Books. Kindle Edition.)

It would seem here Gandalf acknowledges the White Council is no more. At the time he's speaking this to the Council of Elrond, he knows of course of the treachery of Saruman.

(This "last meeting" is after they learn that though they drove Sauron from Mirkwood, he had anticipated them and had already prepared to remove to the Dark Tower, where he was then 'openly declaring himself.'


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## Ent (Jul 8, 2022)

Gothmog said:


> I was starting to point out something about Gondor and also showing that there can be stewards with different responsibilities. Why would we be limited to only one Steward of a “kingdom” especially when that “kingdom” was founded with joint Kings? And as for the Istari, they were given responsibility as a group and there for would be a group of stewards.
> 
> 
> You seem to think that the White Council and the Istari are synonymous and that it was the Istari that created it. The White Council had only two of the Istari and Gandalf was the preferred “Head” but did not want the position.
> ...



Indeed sir Gothmog, you make a great and valid point with this statement:
"You seem to think that the White Council and the Istari are synonymous and that it was the Istari that created it. The White Council had only two of the Istari and Gandalf was the preferred “Head” but did not want the position."

Do keep in mind I'm but a youngster to all the "deeper stuff", and just beginning my learning - still having many things to sort out as I go along.
Now I get the fun and excitement of researching who exactly was the White Council comprised of, because I was holding a misconception here.

And this is exactly why I'm here - and posting this kind of thing for discussion.
You are all exceedingly accelerating my learning curve, and I thank you.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jul 9, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> A long post for the Chief of the Cellrogs!


And exhausting. At least for me. 

I don't know about you. 😄


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## Aldarion (Jul 9, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> In what way, and for whom, is Gandalf serving as a Steward?
> 
> 'Unless the king should come again?’ said Gandalf. ‘Well, my lord Steward, it is your task to keep some kingdom still against that event, which few now look to see. In that task you shall have all the aid that you are pleased to ask for. But I will say this: the rule of no realm is mine, neither of Gondor nor any other, great or small. But all worthy things that are in peril as the world now stands, those are my care. And for my part, I shall not wholly fail of my task, though Gondor should perish, if anything passes through this night that can still grow fair or bear fruit and flower again in days to come. *For I also am a steward. Did you not know*?’ And with that he turned and strode from the hall with Pippin running at his side. (Tolkien, J.R.R.. The Lord of the Rings: One Volume (p. 758). HMH Books. Kindle Edition. Gandalf speaking to Denethor II.)
> 
> ...


To sum up everything in the thread, I think the most important thing to note here is _capitalization_.

Denethor is a Steward (capitalized), because that is a specific position: akin to that of a King, a ruler of the realm that had been entrusted to his care until the King returns, and in presence of the King, his right hand.

Gandalf is a steward (lower-case) because that is a concept: he is caretaker of the world, or rather everything good in it, and is the enemy of evil (Sauron) no matter where it may act.

Both positions have something in common: _taking care_ or _stewarding_ of good that is left in this world. So while the manner of their actions is different, owing to different nature of their positions, fundamental goal shared by both Gandalf and Denethor is the same: preservation of whatever good is left in this world.

So Gandalf is, in the same stroke, showing both similarity and difference of their positions: reminding Denethor that as important as Denethor may see his own position as a Steward, Gandalf too is in a fundamentally same position and with similar task, but one that far overshadows Denethor's own task and responsibility.

It is basically Gandalf saying "stop being a self-centered donkey, not everything is about you and Gondor".


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Jul 9, 2022)

Aldarion said:


> To sum up everything in the thread, I think the most important thing to note here is _capitalization_.
> 
> Denethor is a Steward (capitalized), because that is a specific position: akin to that of a King, a ruler of the realm that had been entrusted to his care until the King returns, and in presence of the King, his right hand.
> 
> ...


I agree with this! Thank you for stating.


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## Ent (Jul 9, 2022)

Aldarion said:


> To sum up everything in the thread, I think the most important thing to note here is _capitalization_.
> 
> Denethor is a Steward (capitalized), because that is a specific position: akin to that of a King, a ruler of the realm that had been entrusted to his care until the King returns, and in presence of the King, his right hand.
> 
> ...



Well summarized... and very similar will be finding its way into my little 'essay'.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jul 9, 2022)

BTW -- when you've completed it, here's a place to post:









The Library of the Istari


The 'Lore' chambers of TTF. This is a compilation of lectures, surveys, essays, character profiles, as well as other writings and activities, all based upon diligent and in-depth research and studies, forming an invaluable knowledge base.




www.thetolkienforum.com


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## Ent (Jul 9, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> BTW -- when you've completed it, here's a place to post:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Terrific, (in today's meaning of the word, not it's original). 
It looks like Forum Folks can review, comment and help adjust/correct/improve on it there for further refinement. 
I hope to have it drafted and a bit refined soon.
(I just need to figure out how to prevent being distracted by other hobbit holes I want to poke into for quick rudimentary research on along the way..!!)


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## Ent (Jul 12, 2022)

Well, I believe all the necessary research and preparation are now done.

I am thrilled to say in the course of my further collection, I have also discovered that J.R.R.T. had an absolutely correct understanding of the Hebrew מַלְאָךְ - malak - "messenger, emissary" and Greek ἄγγελος - _ággelos_ - "messenger, emissary", as we should expect. (Note: Greek _ággelos_ is called by many "_angelos_" instead. _ἄγγελος_ is also printed specifically at one point, describing his view of the Wizards' roles.)

Not the 'angel" (derivative of the Greek transliteration '_angelos_') with fluttering or feathered wings, and assigned to protective missions we humans have straddled them with in spite of all Scriptural evidence to the contrary. (Angels do NOT have wings. Those are only spoken of with relation to other heavenly created beings. Nor are they assigned as 'protective servants of humankind', one or a dozen or so assigned to each individual as their very own 'heavenly' or 'guardian angel'.) They were, are, and will always be "messengers, emissaries" sent with particular "messages" and "missions"

Anyway, soon *"THE STEWARDSHIP OF GANDALF"* will be done, and I'll figure out HOW to match it to the WHERE Squint-eyed Southerner has so graciously provided.

(NOTE: "soon" is purposely nebulous as there are many dependencies.)


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## Nienna Núri (Nov 5, 2022)

The Ent said:


> In what way, and for whom, is Gandalf serving as a Steward?
> 
> (Tolkien, J.R.R.. The Lord of the Rings: One Volume (p. 758). HMH Books. Kindle Edition. Gandalf speaking to Denethor II.)
> 
> ...


Ah, this is one of those favorite snatches of dialogue of mine from the entire novel! It would have been so satisfying to see this exchange acted out in the film, but I digress...

Yes, to me it is clear that the use of the term steward is not limited to a person who rules a realm on behalf of a missing sovereign as Denethor is doing, but also includes guiding, caring for, assisting, teaching, inspiring, and a whole host of ways to support a land, or a people in flourishing and thriving. In the broadest sense, anyone can be a steward by stepping up to the task in recognition of one's own access to values, wisdom, and spiritual guidance. A person could become a steward of a portion of land, or of a community, for instance, simply by being linked to that land and community in an intimate way and caring for it with an invested heart.

In Gandalf's case, his stewardship is more formal, as Denethor is, since he was sent by the Valar. He only alludes to this in the dialogue, but presumably Denethor has enough lore to be aware, at least generally speaking, of who Gandalf is and what he's doing in Middle-Earth. Gandalf here is trying to remind Denethor of that, and rebuke him somewhat, for forgetting what Stewardship is all about. In a sense, its appropriate for Denethor to be thinking about Gondor above all else, given his position as the Steward. But he has grown proud, and is very resistant to the idea of returning the scepter to the king when he comes, indicating that he is not really ruling in the spirit of stewardship, but in the spirit of servicing his own lordship.

Likewise, if Denethor is ruling as a steward on behalf of the missing king, his duty is to rule in service of what a good king would be in service to as well. The king is looking after the wellbeing of the kingdom and the people in it, but in service of what? Not in service of the kingdom for the sake of the kingdom, nor of the kingdom for the sake of the king's aggrandizement. The proper role for all kings is to be ruling as stewards for Manwe, who in turn, is also ultimately just a steward on behalf of Iluvatar.

All of these relationships of earthly power, the ethics of rule, pride, and the primacy of spiritual service are all captured in Gandalf's exchange about stewardship, which is part of why I love this exchange so dearly! Also, that last withering line: "Did you not know?" has all these different layers of possible meaning. Gandalf could be saying, "Seriously, you should really know this stuff, and I thought you did know it. But you're acting like you don't know it, so maybe you don't? In that case, listen up, and learn it!" Or he could be saying, "I know that you really know this. You're acting like you don't, but I know deep down that you do. So I'm kind of making a joke here, asking 'Did you not know?' as if you didn't actually know such things. But we both know that's absurd, and that you really do know what a steward is or should be, and you know who I am and who you are. You also know how important it is to get this stuff right, so snap out of your pride loop!" Or he could be saying, "I thought you knew this stuff, but you're acting like you don't, so please, tell me if you don't. I'm curious! It would help me a lot to learn from you where your level of understanding is here." Or it could be a rhetorical flourish mic drop line to leave Denethor with in the hopes that it will provoke some thought and contemplation on Denethor's part. Or likely all of these things at once.

Anyway, like I said, I love this exchange.


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## Ent (Nov 5, 2022)

Nienna Núri said:


> I love this exchange.


Indeed. It sits among the most "loaded" of the entire canon.


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