# Smaug, The One Ring & Saruman



## DwarfLord (Jun 7, 2005)

Some time ago I started a discussion with my friend, concerning Dragons, The One Ring and Saruman’s voice.


After reading J.R.R. Tolkien’s books I came to the coclusion that Dragons (be they dragon-worms or flying dragons) are Evil. They were bred for the first time by Morgoth, the ancient enemy. The first dragon was Glaurung. If there is anything to say about this foul creature it’s this: the beast was evil to the core. Bred by the Dark Lord himself there was no other choice. Many more dragons appear in the Great Battle, ending the First Age. They all fought for Evil and their Master.

This information comes of course from “The Silmarillion”. 
My theory was challenged by my friend, who said that dragons are Neutral. They can of course be corrupted to Evil, by they are born Neutral.

As always, new questions stemmed from this brief difference in opinion.


I think, that Dragons are evil. Therefore, if Smaug were alive during The War of the Ring, he would surely be a dangerous ally to Sauron. That is if he could control the great beast. Smaug was the largest and smartest dragon alive, during the time of “The Hobbit” and he was the only one close enough to be caught in the war (I remind you, that Erebor, The Iron Mountains, Thranduil’s realm and Lorien were all assaulted while Gondor and Rohan fought in the south).
And now comes the question: If Sauron obtained the One Ring, could he force his will upon Smaug?


The One Ring, combined with the will of Sauron controlls all evil creatures. Therefore if I am right (and I like to think so), Smaug would fall into Sauron’s thralldom. But my friend argues that it’s more likely that Smaug would be controlled by Saruman and his voice. I do not think that is true, because if Sauron had the Ring, Saruman would cease to exist. However, with every victory of The West Saruman became weaker and his powers gradually passed on to Gandalf. In the peak of Saruman’s power there is a chance that he could controll Smaug to some extent. However we must remember, that Dragons love language riddles and breaking othersjust by talking to them. They feel lies and fear and they are creatures most difficult to “tame” with words. 

So if I am right Smaug would devour the North and come down on Rohan and Gondor. If I am wrong and my friend is right, then Saruman’s greatest mistake was not challenging Smaug to a word duel and thus obtaining a powerful slave. This could help him greatly in his search for The One Ring. After all, he had been searching for it for a long time, before The War of the Ring started. 




 DwarfLord


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## Greenwood (Jun 7, 2005)

In my opinion it is usually a mistake to combine things from The Hobbit with LOTR in "what if" types of questions simply because Tolkien had not conceived of LOTR when he wrote The Hobbit. Thus at the time of The Hobbit there was no Saruman. That said, it is clear in LOTR that if Sauron had regained the Ring he would have been all powerful in Middle Earth and would have controlled Saruman as well as Smaug and all other evil creatures.


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## Alatar (Jun 7, 2005)

if sauron had the ring then they would obey him or die.
I smaug was in erebor during the siege of dale(well esgaroth and thraduls realm as dale had died) then they would burn the north,fligh southsmaug would ally himself with sauron as smaug will know that the besat chance of winning will be if they al atack to gether, so fangorn would be burned crispy, saruman destroied by sauron, and so the finaly burning of moinas tirth(imagine the pyre of denethor only alot bigger)
of course this is if smaug did ally with sauron.


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## Hammersmith (Jun 7, 2005)

Could someone who knows more than me confirm that somewhere in the Unfinished Tales Tolkien insinuates that part of Gandalf's reason for helping the dwarves may have been to eliminate Smaug before the war, or maybe create a distraction in the north for the Necromancer? I seem to remember such a reference...


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## Durin's Bane (Jun 7, 2005)

Hm, i seem to remember i simmilar thing.

Anyway did sauron have power over the dragons (and the balrogs and stuff) in the second age when he had the ring and was even more powerful? I think not.
But this doesn't mean Smaug couldn't ally himself with Sauron...
Man i already contradict myself on several matters today...


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## DwarfLord (Jun 7, 2005)

Yes, Hammersmith, I also think that there is somthing of that sort in _Unfinished Tales_. However, I don't know exactly where it is.


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## Greenwood (Jun 7, 2005)

Hammersmith, Durin's Bane and DwarfLord,

You are all thinking of the story "The Quest of Erebor" in Unfinished Tales which Christopher Tolkien says in his notes he believes his father wrote to be part of Appendix A of ROTK, but it was not included. In it Gandalf is talking to Frodo, Sam, Merry, Pipin, and Gimli in Minas Tirith after the coronation of Aragorn. He is telling them about how he came to send Bilbo off with the dwarves. Gandalf says that he thinks Sauron's original plan when he was still in Dol Guldur was to attack Lorien and Rivendell first before returning to Mordor. Gandalf says:


> "You may think that Rivendell was out of his reach, but I did not think so. The state of things in the North was very bad. The Kingdom under the Mountain and the strong Men of Dale were no more. To resist any force that Sauron might send to regain the northern passes in the mountains and the old lands of Angmar there weas only the Dwarves of the Iron Hills, and behind them lay a desolation and a Dragon. The Dragon Sauron might use with terrible effect. Often I said to myself: 'I must find some means of dealing with Smaug. But a direct stroke against Dol Guldur is needed still more. We must dusturb Sauron's plans. I must make the Council see that.' "


So, yes Gandalf was worried about Smaug and wanted to get rid of him, but it was in the context of his on-going fight against Sauron, not specifically involved with the War of the Ring. Of course, it could not be involved with the War of the Ring since the Ring was still "lost" as far as anyone knew. (No one knew it was with Gollum under the mountains.)


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## Arat Macar (Jun 7, 2005)

Cool thread and nicely done Greenwood. 

I agree that Sauron plus the ring uses most any evil and ensnares most good. I am surprised that anyone thought Saruman's voice was comprable in power. Is there any evidence that the voice works when not actually in use? I mean, wormtoungue was under the influence of Saruman but more because of long term emotional twisting than the use of Saruman's voice. 

If Saruman and Smaug voiced off it would have been interesting but even if Saruman prevailed and sent Smaug off on an errand would not Smaug have shaken it off once away?


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## Alatar (Jun 8, 2005)

In that quote it seems prety certain that gandalf though that smaug would be used by sauron. And for his voice 


> ...But for those who ity conquered the spell endured when they were far away.
> From the two towers, the voice of saurman


this mean that it depended on smaugs personallity wheter he was _conquered_ but i think that he would not have been.


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## Hammersmith (Jun 8, 2005)

Ah, Greenwood can always be trusted to come through with just the right nugget of information!  

It's also called to mind another aspect, evident in the books and expanded on throughout the UT, in which Saruman is said to be stalling the Council and searching Gladden for The Ring. This could explain why Gandalf says


> I must find some means of dealing with Smaug. But a direct stroke against Dol Guldur is needed still more. We must disturb Sauron's plans. I must make the Council see that.


Obvious, I know, but every piece of the puzzle helps, no matter how blatant!


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## Alatar (Jun 9, 2005)

I would like to say that we can guess what would have happend now, taking in mind what gandalf thought, though i wonder how i would have gone with sauron and smaug?


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## Astran (Jun 26, 2005)

DwarfLord said:


> After reading J.R.R. Tolkien’s books I came to the coclusion that Dragons (be they dragon-worms or flying dragons) are Evil. They were bred for the first time by Morgoth, the ancient enemy. The first dragon was Glaurung. If there is anything to say about this foul creature it’s this: the beast was evil to the core. Bred by the Dark Lord himself there was no other choice. Many more dragons appear in the Great Battle, ending the First Age. They all fought for Evil and their Master.
> 
> This information comes of course from “The Silmarillion”.
> My theory was challenged by my friend, who said that dragons are Neutral. They can of course be corrupted to Evil, by they are born Neutral.



I think too that all creatures are born neutral... And all can be corrupted. Morgoth corrupted the elves and they transfered into orcs. He created Trolls to counter the ents of (what was the name of this female vala again?). But Morgoth/Melkor can't create a creature. Only eru, the one has this power. (Dwarves for instance are also created by a vala, but they werent real living creatures till Eru gave them life). So Morgoth had to create the trolls from another creature. From what i don't know, but I think Trolls may be brutal by nature, like some animals, but not evil. Just like animals aren't evil by nature too.
Dragons then, have to be neutral by nature too. But because Glaurung was actually bred by Morgoth (how i dont know), he was corrupted too. So my conclusion is: all creatures are neutral by nature, but some can be corrupted more easily than others, and dragons can easily be corrupted because the evil grants them power. (This is also why Melkor became evil, everything is because of the purpose of power!)



DwarfLord said:


> I think, that Dragons are evil. Therefore, if Smaug were alive during The War of the Ring, he would surely be a dangerous ally to Sauron. That is if he could control the great beast. Smaug was the largest and smartest dragon alive, during the time of “The Hobbit” and he was the only one close enough to be caught in the war (I remind you, that Erebor, The Iron Mountains, Thranduil’s realm and Lorien were all assaulted while Gondor and Rohan fought in the south).
> And now comes the question: If Sauron obtained the One Ring, could he force his will upon Smaug?



Both Saruman and Morgoth seemed to have a fancy for dangerous allies. I refer to Ungoliant, Morgoths ally when he destroyed the trees of Valinor. She was dangerous for sure because she even grew stronger than Morgoth himself (by devouring Feanors jewels). But with the help of his Balrog minions Morgoth made her flee. 
Saruman then, was the ally of Sauron, greater in power than him. There is no reason to believe that Saruman could corrupt the greater creatures. So certainly not dragons. Sauron, on the other side, was stronger than Smaug, if he had his ring. And like his former master Morgoth he could force his will upon Smaug, but not that easy. I think that he would have to make compromises and promisses.


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## ingolmo (Jun 27, 2005)

I also think that no creatures are born evil. Smaug turned evil only due to greed, greed for beautiful and precious things. In his lust for those things, he became evil. And he became narrow-minded and weak because of his greed. So I think both Sauron and Saruman would have been able to control, or atleast force their will upon Smaug, because he was weak, and susceptible to greed. So even if they couldn't have bent him to there will by force, they could have lured him with precious things.


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