# Was it only love?



## Lhunithiliel (Nov 30, 2003)

There are three cases in Tolkien's Legendarium of marriages between Elves and Men.
But we also can trace a few more of marriages one would call "_uneven_" - Thingol and Melian, Aladrion and Erendis....

What do you think was behind all these? Was it to only show matters of love or... was there something else? 

Could it be a reflection of some principles of the real-life society the author lived? And if so - how do you feel it - was it that the author showed agreement with those principles or objected to them? 

Or was there even anything else? 
Especially in the marriages between Men and Elves - why would one or the other of these couples marry her/his partner? Was that because Men wanted to touch to the ever-lasting dream of immortality? But then... according to "Athrabet" it is the immortality of Men that Elves understood as real one. The immortality of Elves had limits (until Arda existed), while immortality of Men, in the sense of the fact that after the death of their hroar their fear went to the Halls of Eru, was much more to be envied for!?

Well???


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## Eriol (Dec 2, 2003)

I'm not sure of what you mean by "principles of real-life society", Lhun... but I think that in any case there is very little chance of conscious "agreement" or "objections" to these principles by Tolkien; or that is how I feel it.

These marriages probably fall under the wicked "plot device" class . Thingol and Melian are a prime example. Really, we don't see much of Thingol's character to understand what happened in Nan Elmoth; Thingol was a mighty leader of Elves, a future King, but even so Melian was considerably "above" him both in wisdom and in stature.

(Though Thingol was the tallest Child of Ilúvatar ).

If one wonders why did those two fall in love, the easiest explanation is, of course -- a plot device. Tolkien needed a way to ennoble the Sindar and their realm, to distinguish them from other Dark Elf realms. Thingol, a Calaquendi, is already a strong "asset" in the ennoblement of the Sindar; but his marriage to a Maia of Aman is much more efficient in that regard. 

To the Noldor, here was a figure worthy of the utmost respect and admiration; not even the sons of Fëanor could dismiss Melian, and therefore they had to consider the Sindar as an important factor (compare it with their reaction to Men, before the attack on Haleth's people).

This "story outlook" takes out a bit of the magic of the works . To say that "Thingol and Melian fell in love because Tolkien needed to ennoble the Sindar" is very harsh. If we take the characters at face value, though, there is no need for explanations of love. Love is unpredictable. 

Another way to say that would be that when Melian met Irmo in Aman after Thingol died, I'm sure that Irmo wouldn't bug her with questions such as "why did you marry an Elf? Why did you incarnate, become pregnant, and conceive? This is so unnatural for one of us Ainur..." Irmo would simply receive Melian and welcome her back into Lórien.

"Plot device" would probably be the best explanation for all "uneven marriages", with one exception -- Aldarion and Erendis. In that case we see a "superfluous" story -- one that has no big implications for the legendarium (though it has some implications, such as the change in the inheritance rule at Númenor). Here, I think, are set out the clearest ideas of Tolkien's about love and marriage and the role of man and woman in marriage.

In my most humble opinion , I see a condemnation of Erendis in the text; I think that Tolkien believes that Erendis should have been more submissive to Aldarion's wish to travel. It is not a one-way street; I see condemnation of Aldarion's stubbornness there, too.

But I think Tolkien would lay "the blame" of the failure of the marriage on Erendis' shoulders. And _here_ I think we can see "principles of real-life society" being used, perhaps unconsciously. I think it is clear that Tolkien believed that a woman should be submissive (though not inferior) to the man in a marriage. I get this from the Letters, especially one Letter in which Tolkien talks about marriage to his son; and also the Letter in which he says that the story of Ents and Entwives is about the inherent differences of femininity and masculinity -- and I don't think anyone can deny that if one group is to "be blamed" in the tragedy of the Ents and Entwives, it is the Entwives!


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## Gil-Galad (Dec 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Eriol _
> *
> "Plot device" would probably be the best explanation for all "uneven marriages", with one exception -- Aldarion and Erendis. In that case we see a "superfluous" story -- one that has no big implications for the legendarium (though it has some implications, such as the change in the inheritance rule at Númenor). Here, I think, are set out the clearest ideas of Tolkien's about love and marriage and the role of man and woman in marriage.
> 
> ...




hmmm.
All "strange" marriages are created by Tolkien for different purposes.
Eriol is right.They cannot represent Tolkien's opinion on the questions of marriage,because obviously they were created with other purpose,related to the whole plot of his world.
As Eriol said the relationships between Erendis and Aldarion are those which represents Tolkien's opinion.

It hard to say who was wrong,and which side Tolkien supported.Actually I believe that by showing us their story and problems Tolkien states that between married people everything depends on compromises.
It cannot be only one-way love,one-way compromises.
Erendis and Aldarion both did not do compromises.
Erendis was supposed to know that she would not be able to stop Aldarion and his biggest passion.When she decided to marry him,she should have had in mind she would have to "share" him with the sea.But with the time she started wanting more and more from Aldarion.
I also consider her behaviour wrong when Tar-Aldarion returned.yes, in a way she had the right to be angry with him but,she should have reconsidered his opinion.

Concerning Aldarion I would say the same words like Eri.His stubborness was really to big.

They both could have made compromises,but they both were strong,proud and subborn individuals,which didn't allow theml to save their marriage.
That was Tolkien's idea,I suppose:Everything in one relationship like a marriage shold be based on compromises between two persons.


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## Eledhwen (Dec 2, 2003)

*This story interests me...*



> _Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth_: '...pity is of two kinds; one is of kinship recognised, and is near to love; the other is of difference of fortune perceived, and is near to pride. I speak of the former.'
> 'Speak of neither to me!' said Andreth. 'I desire neither. I was young and I looked on his flame, and now I am old and lost. He was young and his flame leaped towards me, but he turned away, and he is young still. Do candles pity moths?'
> 'Or moths candles, when the wind blows them out?' said Finrod. 'Adaneth (mortal woman), I tell thee, Aikanar the Sharp-flame (Aegnor, son of Finarfin) loved thee. For thy sake now he will never take the hand of any bride of his own kindred, but live alone to the end, remembering the morning in the hills of Dorthonion. But too soon in the North-wind his flame will go out! Foresight is give to the Eldar ... he will go forth (die) before thee and he will not wish to return.'
> ... 'Then why did he turn away? Why leave me while I had still a few good years to spend?'
> ...


Tolkien has shown an occasion when a male Elf fell in love with a mortal woman, though no marriage ensued. The passage also casts light onto marriages that did take place, being for some "high purpose of Doom.

Considering Aldarion and Erendis, I see no blame in the authorship, but a picture of two stubborn, selfish people; one who was addicted to seafaring, the other with over-high expectations of marriage to a seafarer. When married life did not come up to scratch, she shrivelled. Her husband's guilt would have been assuaged somewhat if she had instead put on a proud public display of distain. He could have coped better with that than what she had become, and what she was turning their child into; and so they were even more estranged.


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## Hirila (Dec 3, 2003)

In that light, i.e. the plot-device point of view, even the "love" between Aragorn and Arwen losses all of its magic.

There are even two plots that come to an end with this marriage.
1. It is a very last alliance between elves and men. We've had many in the entire history, beginning in Beleriand, ending with the Battle on Dagorlad. But now the elves are finally leaving Middle-Earth (that is at the end of the Third Age) and somehow it doesn't seem right to have a war as the last combined action of those two peoples. So having a couple overcome all obstacles is just the way to let it end. Happy End.
2. Follow the lines of their ancestors: In a certain way Arwen is Aragorns cousin the X-hundredth grade. Remember? Elrond and Elros are brothers and from Elros Aragorn comes. (unless I am very much mistaken, forgive me, there are at least 4000 years in that line and someone might miss a generation or two during that time.) So right at the end of the First Age the familiy parted, Elrond choosing living as one of the Eldar, Elros choosing a mortal life. And with Arwen and Aragorn the family finally reunites.

Simple and easy. 

Considering Aldarion and Erendis I think that somehow Erendis was mistaken in what power she might achieve over her husband. She surely had said to herself before marriage she could change his way of life. Good God! No woman has ever significantly changed her husband. No matter how hard she tried. Isn't that what we women are always told?


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## Lhunithiliel (Apr 23, 2004)

One of the "unconventional" points of view. Fresh opinions?


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## Thorondor_ (May 27, 2005)

I am not so cynical as to believe those uncommon marriages were out of the "interest" (of the author). Why not look at them as love conquering any barrier? What if this was the main purpose for portraying them? And about ennobling the Sindars, many other options could have been found, legends (the dwarves ennoble themselves through their creation legend), artefacts, their deeds (take Earendil/Beren)... many options available.


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