# Changes



## David Pence

This is something of a long winded post.

I plan to make some changes here at TTF. Some are minor. Some are not. Some may like them. Some may not. Most will unlikely not really care.

I've said this several times now. I strongly feel that TTF is suffering from an severe glut of content.

The vast majority of the traffic here consists of visitors reading old posts. After nearly 10 years, pretty much everything that can be discussed, has been discussed. I feel this has the effect that of the site seeming a more than a little overwhelming to new visitors, so, these new visitors feel they have nothing new to contribute, so they move on. 

Older members have little incentive to start new discussions as well. Either they have deliberated everything they've had a mind to, or some new topic that's peaked their interest has already been discussed, so they'll simply read the relevant threads, and also move on.

It's a frustrating dilemma. On the one hand, TTF members have produced an absolutely outstanding body of work that Tolkien fans everywhere can and do benefit from. On the other hand, TTF is not meant to be a static body of work, but a dynamic place, where people from all over the globe, can learn about and explore Tolkien's works, through dynamic, interactive discussion and deliberation.

What to do.

One option that I've already put forth is to start from scratch. Simply lock down this site and open up a brand new incarnation of TTF. That of course is a drastic move, one that poses the threat of killing off the site entirely.

A second option is to open up a new site and leave this site running as well. See which one does best. Not as drastic as the first, but offers a lot more work for those involved with running the site.

A third option is to take a great many brooms and vacuums to the current TTF, do some really intensive spring cleaning, and see how much can be cleared out, without causing a great deal of harm to the site as a whole.

As I said, it's frustrating, but something needs to be done.

As of now, I'm personally leaning towards the third. It would be the most work, but offers the least risk of killing off TTF as a whole.

I do not plan on doing any of this on my own. Any member who is truly interested in helping getting TTF back into shape is welcome to participate.


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## Turgon

I'd like to help in some way, as I do agree with most of what you have said in regards to the causes of TTF's lack of traffic. I log in here most days but find I have nothing really to add to anything anymore. I think it _*is*_ a delicate matter, and one, perhaps, left to wiser heads than mine. That said I would like nothing more than to see TTF restored to its former brightness.

My suggestion would be turning the Mathom House into a true Mathom House, a place where all our past glory is stored in a nice, pleasing, and respectful manner, and not stuffed away in a dark, dank barrow where our past will cry out and haunt us and strip us naked and poke us with sticks. I wouldn't like that at all...

It would be hard work to do it right, but I would happily be part of such a project.


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## David Pence

Yes, I've been brooding on that section for a little while now. I'm not sure yet just how to go about sorting it out.


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## Confusticated

dapence said:


> One option that I've already put forth is to start from scratch. Simply lock down this site and open up a brand new incarnation of TTF. That of course is a drastic move, one that poses the threat of killing off the site entirely.



I think this option would only work best if it were timed out just before the release of another film. A sudden rush of new members registering along with the established members of this site could probably build a thriving forum.

As a long time member with thousands of posts, I like the idea of a fresh start.

But TTF members who are not frequenting the site at present might be shocked to find it is closed when they check back in the future. Some might not be pleased, and may decide not to register at the new forum. But maybe not.

Some may want a chance to download Private Messages or avatars. I know my TTF avatar is the only remaining copy of an original Tirion I made in Paintshop.



> A second option is to open up a new site and leave this site running as well. See which one does best. Not as drastic as the first, but offers a lot more work for those involved with running the site.



I like this. If the new site doesn't take off, I bet TTF will have lost nothing in the attempt. 

Activity is so slow that if it gets a little slower while people chose to try the new site, it wouldn't make a difference. Would it? And how many regulars at TTF would try the new site? I would, even though I am not as active as I once was.



> A third option is to take a great many brooms and vacuums to the current TTF, do some really intensive spring cleaning, and see how much can be cleared out, without causing a great deal of harm to the site as a whole.



I guess you mean putting threads into some kind of archives?

I hope there wont be a lot of discussions deleted. Many of the posts are well researched. Lots of the ideas put forth are original (at least within the site) though maybe at times forgotten, and it would be awful to lose these things.


If TTF is going to be locked away for viewing only, then I would suggest leaving it open for a while. Locking it only after several months of good activity at the new site, and barring strong objections from members who have contributed to TTF.

Also - if TTF is shut down, what will it become like? Could members still log in but not post? Or will it be like browsing as a guest? Or will it become text archives with a whole different look and no graphics? However it will be - can it be easily searched/navigated? _Can it be re-opened?_

I think we can use the MERPG spin-off site as something of a reference. It thrived for a time but then activity went down. Good thing TTF was still here for it to come back home to.


And we might ask a few questions about that.

1. Why did MERPG thrive for a time? Do those reasons apply to the new TTF. I recall that RPGs were prohibited at TTF for a time when MERPG came into being. This was just _one_ factor in MERPG's initial success. Myself and a few others had strong objections to this but in the end some of us registered and used MERPG because we had to - ultimately making it more active. But such an action in this case would be like the sudden closing of TTF - and I doubt many would agree with this.

2. What caused the decline in activity? How can we prevent it from happen to the new TTF.

3. Were we ever provided with archives of MERPG as we were promised? 

Some members may want to know going into the new forum that anything they post will not be lost if the site does fail.


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## Prince of Cats

As a new member here,

I think the forum as it is, is, other than the lacking number of posts, awesome in every sense. I don't think it should be shed, old discussions *remain* dynamic in the way that anyone may revive them and add their post


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## Mike

Indeed, this is the few places you can "necromance" a dead thread back to life and not get penalized for it, just as long as you add a new thought to the discussion.

"I likes it here th'way it is", as the folk of Dunwich would say.


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## HLGStrider

As someone who has been here for awhile, I really like to look back over the old posts now and again and don't mind terribly answering the same questions over and over again, but I'll be honest, I haven't thought of a new discussion to bring up in ages. I feel what we really need is Tolkien novices who ask even the simplest questions. Our excellent Tolkien scholars tend to answer in paragraphs and essays even if it could be answered in a sentence and that always leaves some room for discussions. 

I think some form of "respectful" archives would be nice, but not being web-design-savy, I don't have any helpful suggestions as to how to do this. But I would be unwilling to see even the oldest of threads disappearing forever.

I also would prefer to keep the web address we currently have because
A. It's simple
B. if old members decide to come back I want them to be able to find it.

So I guess I would suggest ripping out the foundation but keeping the framework: put the "historical" posts somewhere else we can access if we really want to and have this forum look as if it has never been used.


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## Thorin

I have mixed feelings about this. Like LG, as you can see, I have been a member here since it's inception. There are alot of memories here and I think that a clean sweep might be best as long as these threads can find their way somewhere where we can still access them.

However, even us Tolkien vets have lots of new stuff to learn and rediscover with fresh eyes if we ever pick up the books again (I recently did this the last two weeks with Unfinished Tales and after many, many readings of it through the years, more understanding and new insights still came to me.

So there is still much that can be discussed, even if it may tread the same ground on occasion as has been previously covered.

Perhaps the release of the Hobbit will revive the discussions of old!

How I long for the Eldar Days of TTF. My, they were fun!


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## David Pence

I agree that there is a great deal of outstanding material here. The last thing that will happen is for it to be lost. I just want to find a balance of maintaining this outstanding material and encourage new discussions at the same time.

Another option I've had in mind, is for us to author our own 'wiki.' I've actually had a placeholder for this idea in place at www.tolkienpedia.com for quite some time.

We could, over time, select, clean, edit, and adapt content from TTF to there. It would be an excellent method of preserving a great deal of the quality content we've created, allow for easy (easier actually) reference, and clear out space for new discussions here.

How's that for an idea?


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## Majimaune

I'm thinking the second option would be the one to go with, opening the new site soonish so it gets a little bit of a take off before the new film comes out and is overrun by movie fans.

Leaving this place open as well would be able to gage how well this place is going. Also if it turns out that one is really busy and the other not, couldn't they be merged together?

I like the Tolkienpedia page as well.


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## Starflower

I prefer the Mathom House idea, to house the old and well-thought-out discussions in a section where you can read them and ponder over them. But it will take a lot of careful work on part of the WM and his team to get it right.

The Tolkienpedia is a good idea too, but a forum is more interactive than a wiki.


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## Firawyn

dapence said:


> I agree that there is a great deal of outstanding material here. The last thing that will happen is for it to be lost. I just want to find a balance of maintaining this outstanding material and encourage new discussions at the same time.
> 
> Another option I've had in mind, is for us to author our own 'wiki.' I've actually had a placeholder for this idea in place at www.tolkienpedia.com for quite some time.
> 
> We could, over time, select, clean, edit, and adapt content from TTF to there. It would be an excellent method of preserving a great deal of the quality content we've created, allow for easy (easier actually) reference, and clear out space for new discussions here.
> 
> How's that for an idea?





If I'm understanding you correctly, I like this idea. Clean out this TTF to a bare minimum and what we take out, create an archive for. The content would not be lost, and members could easily reference things already said, but it would give TTF a fresh appearance to new members, and likely as not allow ever older members to participate in discussions they've already had, for the benefit of the newer clan.

I vote for this.


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## YayGollum

To answer the Confusticated lady's questions ---> 

1. Well, yes, partly the fact that R. P. G. type things were banned here, but also because it seemed as if, "R. P. G. people! Lots of activity! You are enthused! Good for you! How's about this? Big gift! A place of your own, looking all new as well as awesome! Yay! Have fun!" Looks like only the first reason would work with this new place, though.

2. The decline was caused (at least from the hypothesis I have seen) by too much knowledge. Too many subjects already discussed. Old people have nothing new to write. New people see little activity or don't see much to add. Amnesia seems to me to be the best solution. If we've got all of the old information someplace, wouldn't the new place just be full of threads with links to old answers? "Check out this old thread on this old website! Within a fact, check out the entirety of that old website!" 

3. *shrugs shoulders* Looking back for old things every now as well as then, I have seen some of them. I am not sure if all of that stuff exists here. If it doesn't exist here, I have no idea of an alternate location to search.

My opinion ---> Eh. I'll deal with changes. Go with the flow. 

For the first option, I agree that timing it around some large Tolkien event's arrival would make sense. Otherwise, the half discontent mob of regulars here as well as the odd trickle of new people would be uninspiring. I could easily fake amnesia for you.

For the second option, yes, it seems less drastic, but I don't see much of a point besides that. Why would old people go to the new place? To wait around for someone to ask an old question so that they can ignore the ocean of old answers and re-answer the thing? For new people, yes, you'd most probably get the odd trickle of humans arriving unless it was, again, around the time of a large Tolkien type event.

For the third, seems as if this works with the wikipedia idea. Lots of work. Could be a fun project for some, I guess. Reading through lots of old as well as achingly awesome posts and sticking them elsewhere for preservation as well as for the good of all who might ever look up the information at the wikipedia place. The disected forum that remains would then, what, look less intimidating to new people? Get old people to re-do their old discussions for some reason? Encouraged amnesia?

I can see good as well as horrible in all decisions. I shall most probably deal with and help out and enjoy myself with whatever we end up with. Will that crazy blog thing be added to the new place?


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## Barliman Butterbur

dapence said:


> Another idea ... is for us to author our own 'wiki.
> How's that for an idea?



Excellent! superb! Yes, absolutely! (As long as, whatever betides, we keep our post count...)

Barley


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## chrysophalax

As long as this doesn't mean a lot of our writing won't disappear into the Void as happened with MERPG, I favour any option to akin to #3 and would be happy to help out in any way I can.

Speaking of the RPGs...does this mean that the few still runnning here currently will now be under a certain time constraint to finish up?


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## Confusticated

I've contributed some material to The Tolkien Wiki in the past. In the future I will put more there when I have time. I suppose it would be fairly easy to duplicate this into a different newer Wiki while I am at it, but there doesn't seem to be much point in it when the first Wiki already has a large jump start. I guess if enough people want to contribute to the new one it could become a substantial Wiki like the one Walter started. 

I just re-read an entry I wrote on Pengolodh (and some related entries) about 3 years ago, and found some of the details I had since forgotten. 

But Wikis are better places to post articles than forums. Better organized for those who want to find certain information, and intended to last forever. Also - each entry may be edited by anyone. So factual or grammar errors can be quietly fixed over, and new information added. Each entry is honed closer to perfection with the passage of time.

Whether or not TTF undergoes a drastic change, a Wiki is a perfect home for many of the posts here.


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## Turgon

I don't think so Chrys. I think the idea would be to take the old classic threads and place them in a Mathom house type style of format, either on the Wiki or in some other form. If that is the case, then I'm sure threads that are still in use could just be left as they are with no problems.


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## Gothmog

I find myself in agreement with Turgon. Most 'Wiki's' are composed of "articles" Where a definate view of a subject is presented as "The Answer". How many of our discussions have come up with a definitive answer to a question?

Perhaps a Wiki presenting a series of discussions showing the many sided arguments on the various matters relating to Tolkien's works would be a refreshing addition to the internet. It is also possible that such a 'Mathom House' of old discussions could be of help to a cleared-out forum without getting in the way of new discussions.


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## Firawyn

chrysophalax said:


> As long as this doesn't mean a lot of our writing won't disappear into the Void as happened with MERPG...




Hear, hear! That was a HUGE crisis for me.


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## David Pence

The Middle-earth RPG material is still around.

It actually shouldn't that much of an adventure (for one familiar enough with Tolkien's works) to find it.


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## David Pence

*Spring Cleaning Update*

Right now, I feel the vast majority of the 'spring cleaning' that needs to be done, is in the Mathom House category. It sorely needs to be sorted out at the very least. And there are a few fora that may need even need to be there at all.

So, if any members have suggestions along this line, it'd be great to read them.


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## Gothmog

Well in the Mathom House, we could certainly lose the fora:
Politics
Religion
Inns and Bars
Non Secuitur
Council of Nine.

As for the Guild section, this would need careful checking. There is much in this section that certainly must be kept. Though it also includes threads to be pruned.


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## HLGStrider

Would we be able to have a special section for Tolkien humor?

Would we also be able to keep current active threads active?

I'm thinking specifically the "game" type threads and most of the member announcements. 

Give me warning when you want to do spring cleaning and I'll make time. Not working now so it is just an issue of whether or not it gets in the way of baby or dinner.


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## Confusticated

I was thinking about TTF earlier.

With the passing of the movie-crowd (and by this I mean large numbers of those who gave their primary attention to the films and little or none to the texts) we have come into a new era at TTF, and this is not necessarily a bad thing.

Sure activity is down, but maybe less can be more. I wonder if the forum structure that was graduality built up in response to the films – among other things – might benefit us and future members by being made smaller. A restructuring – a simplification of the layout.

If huge bulks of threads are to be moved off into smails, perhaps we could do away with some of the categories. Large numbers of categories are necessary to keep organized with high volume. With a lower volume of posting being done, sections could merge without disorder resulting.

We could keep adding things and hoping for growth – or we could make the forum layout like it was 3 or 4 years ago and then, as activity picks up make necessary changes.

For an example of how the forum used to be more simple look at this snapshot from the Internet Way Back Machine.

I think such a layout might be comfortable for the relatively few active members that we have today.

What do others think?


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## HLGStrider

Gosh, I remember those days. 

Nom's right. Half of the sections we have, I don't look at any more. 

Though I imagine every section is somebody's favorite section. As much as I admit Nom's right about the structure being too compartmentalized, I would hate to loose the Prancing Pony or Green Dragon because both involve really good threads discussing things that have always been discussed here but which used to get lost in the Stuff and Bother shuffle. However, the Prancing Pony, which attempted to replace the old Writers' Guild, simply isn't getting the activity I'd like.


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## David Pence

The current set of fora evolved due to necessity. It's true that (thankfully) the 'movie crowd' have long moved on to the next shiny object, leaving TTF more sedate. That would only leave us with the fora dealing with the motion pictures the least used.

As to not visiting each fora ... It's true that TTF is not the same to each member, so, it would be a mistake for the sites layout to try and make all the members happy at once. So, at least in my opinion, a compartmentalized structure makes more sense. Easier to find (or post) the topic you're interested in

So a larger set of fora, with a more distributed content, is what I feel will work best for TTF.

To that point, I have setup a V4.0 of TTF that I'd like to see what you all think. Check out the attachment to see the new layout.


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## Barliman Butterbur

It looks substantially the same as our current front page. Hard to tell. I hope we keep the same green color, avatars and post counts...

Barley


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## Firawyn

Barliman Butterbur said:


> It looks substantially the same as our current front page. Hard to tell. I hope we keep the same green color, avatars and post counts...
> 
> Barley



Substantially the same, yes, but there are some, probably essential, changes.

It looks good, dpence. I like it.

Though to agree with Barley, I really like the green and I'd really like to keep post counts and avatars.


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## Ithrynluin

Looks fine to me, Dave. I'd be interesting in "shedding my skin" and starting afresh on a new board, though I would not want a single post from TTF as it is now to get deleted.


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## Firawyn

No chance there could be an option about the post counts? Like if you wanted to keep them, you post on a certain thread or PM a mod or admin, and anyone else would be deleted...


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## Ingwë

I don't like the idea of moving to a new site. This one is ok and I like it very much. It just needs to be cleaned, many threads merged, some pruned and it will shy like a diamond again (at least in my eyes). I don't think think moving to a new site will increase the traffic much, mostly because tolkien societies don't have as many new members as they used to in the movie years. So those who will post there will be exactly the same members that visit this site almost every day. And I don't think they will post as much as they did in the days of old. I visit the forum regularly, though sometimes not logged in, but I don't have time for big discussions. And I've forgotten much of what I knew 2 years. However, I still enjoy Tolkien's books. I read The Children Of Hurin 4 months ago and I was extremely happy to do it. I just can't explain the feeling, I can only say it was great. I think we don't post much because we've spent several years discussing the books and we don't have more to say. I wouldn't discuss the same topic, that I've discussed here, in the new site. Let's just clean this one and make the Wiki 

About the attachment: I think that some of the sections could be added as sub-sections. Languages of ME could be sub-section of The Fabric Of Arda. Literature and Music/Art could be merged in one section. I also think we don't need so many off-topic fora. One of the inns could be the one for movies, another one - the music inn, etc. It would be easier for the new members to find the approprite section for their thread. Also some of the sections could be transformed to Fan Art forum called Fan Art forum. Members might post own poems, images, stories inspired by JRRT.
I find the current layout a bit complicated. I just think it needs to be simplified.


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## Mali

As a member from way back when that rejoined recently, I completely understand this dilemma. I do think that option three is the best option, however, if it doesn't work, completely starting a new site might be needed (although I hope it never comes to that). I think that it also comes down to members--are members willing to re-address topics that have previously been discussed, only now with new members? Anyway, I wish you the best of luck in your spring cleaning!


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## Halasían

Keep the Join Dates
Shed the post counts.
Archive this board, making it Read-Only
Start anew.

As Ingwe said... simplification would help new folk I think.
Catering more to fan art, free-form RP collaborative writing, and other literature will help keep interest, though I have to wonder if the day of the message-board is passed. With people's internet time spent on MMORPGS, Facebook, Myspace, blogging, etc. etc., and without a shiny new movie to draw web searches, it will never be as active as it once was. Its getting back to the true Tolkien geeks like before news of the movies came along.

As for topics discussed to their end, maybe so for some, but questions from new folk need to be catered to. Too many times I've seen on Tolkien boards someone comes along with a question, and is hit with either a reply saying that "it was discussed at length 'here'" with hyperlink provided, leading the new person to a thread started in 2000 and last replied to in 2005. Or, someone quite knowledgeable in the deep lore posts a quote from Letters saying that "this was what Tolkien meant", etc. and for all intents and purposes shutting down any further discussion.

Just some observations I've made about the current state of Tolkien boards these days.


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## Snaga

I prefer option 3, and would suggest the following guidelines. Firstly, lets archive all threads with no posts in the last 6-12 months. Secondly, lets simplify massively.

*News, Announcements & Site Management Discussions *- keep as is.

*The Works of JRRT *- keep the top level forums, and get rid of the sub-forums.

*Halls of Tolkienology *- consolidate some of the top level forums, and get rid of the sub-forums. We need Halls of Fire and Bag End. We don't need most of the others seperately.

*Related Subjects *- lets just call this area "The Movies". Or possible "Movies and Spin-offs" - since we could also cover PC games, the musical and various other things. We should maybe have a PJ LotR forum, one for the The Hobbit, and one for everything else.

*Middle Earth RPG *- probably only needs one forum at the moment. This could go into the 'Bars and Inns' area.

*The Mathom House*We need this to keep our repository of lore!



Halasían said:


> Catering more to fan art, free-form RP collaborative writing, and other literature will help keep interest, though I have to wonder if the day of the message-board is passed. With people's internet time spent on MMORPGS, Facebook, Myspace, blogging, etc. etc., and without a shiny new movie to draw web searches, it will never be as active as it once was. Its getting back to the true Tolkien geeks like before news of the movies came along.


Judging from the new features in vBulleting 3.7.0 (go here...http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=249460) there is great potential to refresh TTF through some of what brings people to Facebook etc. Personally, that might be a good way of allowing us old-timers to do the chit-chatting that probably brings us back, but keeping the threads clearer for the true purpose of TTF.

Overall, I think we want to get this place to be humming along quietly for now, with a strong core group of members, while being ready for next movie related influx. We can't expect to have the level of debate right now that there was in the PJ-driven mayhem days. No matter. Lets stay small and friendly, pick up new members in ones and twos, and welcome them when they arrive!


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## Halasían

Yeah, I agree.
I do like the Glittering Caves for the Tolkien-based tale writing.
Somehow I don't think the Hobbit will bring as many people as the movie trilogy did. It may being in some who used to post, and some new folk, but we need to make it so the new folk want to stay and participate, instead of posting a handfull of times in their intro thread.

A small core of dedicated Tolkien geeks... thats how it was in the 90's! I'm all for it!


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## Illuin

I think the second option is by far the best option. You don’t even have to mention that is affiliated with this forum. And Nom’s idea regading timing it with the movie release is brilliant. If you need some help with anything I’m here. I’ve been studying Tolkien for many years and didn’t even realize Tolkien forums existed until very recently, so I’m all pumped up and very enthusiastic to help in any way I can.


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## Prince of Cats

I don't like the first option, that's for sure  

I've left many forums in the past that tried that, some I even hosted and moderated. The clean slate sucks IMO. With this layout, people can search and resurrect the old threads

Maybe for option three you should ask for help concerning specific tasks. Say for instance, one person concentrates on the lore of Tom Bombadil (lo) and looking at the topics concerning and what could be merged/pruned etc ... 

maybe


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## ltas

Keep all member accounts.



Halasían said:


> Archive this board, making it Read-Only
> Start anew.




Mr Da Pence  has all my respect for considering all of our opinions, but considering the fact that where there's two forum members, there's four opinions , this discussion can go on for forever. Halasían's To Do-list sounds the most painless.


_edit 06-11-2008: Seeing old and new members bringing back threads from several years ago has changed my mind about this. Why bottle up anything that has potential of becoming alive again. This archive of six years worth of threads is like bottomless treasure chest. _


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## Prince of Cats

I don't understand *why* this board would be read only yet


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## Firawyn

I would be more than content to keep it as is, with mayhaps a bit of spring cleaning that would include reorganization - but members, post counts, active in the last six months threads - all stay.


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## Illuin

> from Ingwe
> I read The Children Of Hurin 4 months ago and I was extremely happy to do it. I just can't explain the feeling, I can only say it was great.


 
Indeed. I cried...not because it was so tragic...but because I was experiencing the magic once again.


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