# The fate of the Silvan elves



## Heathertoes (Jan 15, 2003)

In a letter in 1954 Tolkien was explaining that the Eldar would always be able to leave Middle-Earth, but that other elves wouldn't:

'They had long before made their irrevocable choice, preferring Middle-Earth to paradise.'

I was pretty surprised when I read this. What happened to them in the end then?


----------



## jallan (Jan 15, 2003)

Old Elves who remain in Middle-earth never die (unless slain or dead of a broken heart), they just fade away.

From _The Silmarillion_, "Of Men":


> Then the Quendi wandered in the lonely places of the great lands and the isles, and took to the moonlight and the starlight, and to the woods and caves, becoming as shadows and memories, save those who ever and anon set sail into the West and vanished from Middle-earth.


From _Morgoth's Ring_, "The Later _Quenta Silmarillion_ (II)", _Laws B_:


> For the Eldar do indeed grow older, even if slowly: the limit of their lives is the life of Arda, which though long beyond the reckoning of Men is not endless, and ages, also. Moreover theri body and spirt are not separate but coherent. As the weight of the years, with all their changes of desire and thought, gathers upon the spirit of the Eldar, so do the impulses and moods of their bodies change. This the Eldar mean when they speak of their spirit consuming them; and they say that ere Arda ends all the Eldalië on earth will have become as spirits invisible to mortal eyes, unless they will be seen by some among Men into whose minds they may enter directly.


While this passage refers to the Eldalië only, not to other Elves, their fate would be the same.

Tolkien notes in _The War of the Jewels_, "Quendi and Eldar" that _Elda_, though in accurate use was not held to include the Avari, in fact in popular used it was the ordinary word for Elf of any kind, instead of the more correct _Quende_. Tolkien continues:


> When one of the Elves of Aman spoke of the _Eldalië_, 'the Elven-folk', he meant vaguely all the race of the Elves, though he was probably not thinking of the Avari.


----------



## Tatem (Jan 23, 2003)

The elves who choose ME over Valinor whither over time and eventually die.


----------



## Wonko The Sane (Feb 20, 2003)

But how can they die? They're immortal...


----------



## Ithrynluin (Feb 20, 2003)

They don't die, they fade. Their bodies simply "disappear" over time, and only their spirits remain to wander.


----------



## Wonko The Sane (Feb 20, 2003)

Why though? Why don't their bodies stay?


----------



## Ithrynluin (Feb 20, 2003)

Because ME was meant to become the abode of Men and the Elves were all summoned to return to their "true" home in the West. I do not know what this process of fading would be called, if that's what you're interested.


----------



## Wonko The Sane (Feb 20, 2003)

But just because the men are on the Earth shouldn't mean the elves can't be!
I mean...the animals got to stay!


----------



## Ithrynluin (Feb 20, 2003)

Aaaaah, too many questions! *head explodes*

The Elves were just MEANT to fade if they stayed. That was their fate. And that's all there is to it.


----------



## Wonko The Sane (Feb 20, 2003)

But I LIKE the elves and I don't think that it's cool for them to fade!

I mean, there's no REAL reason for them to do so!


----------



## Lantarion (Feb 21, 2003)

Look, all that Elves are doing is 'fading'; just as Men, they age, but incredibly slowly.
So in the end, as the quote from _Morgoth's Ring_, all the Eldalië, Elves, Eldar, whatever you want to call them, would either fade or go to Aman.


----------



## Wonko The Sane (Feb 22, 2003)

Well I don't think they should.

But I guess that answers the question about aging.
Still...they're immortal. There should be a point where they just don't get any older.

They shouldn't have to go and fade..that's just wrong.


----------



## Goldberry (Feb 23, 2003)

I think the Elves still in Middle-earth faded into spirits because that is what we are supposed to believe still exists today in our world. It's how JRRT preserves LoTR as a history of our world. We never see any elves, but maybe have felt their presence or seen their work, without knowing it.


----------



## Wonko The Sane (Feb 23, 2003)

Well where did the Hobbits go then?


----------



## Ithrynluin (Feb 23, 2003)

They're hiding whenever they hear us clumsy humans approaching. 

Wonks, check out this thread and give your opinion if you will:

The fate of the other races


----------



## Confusticated (Sep 7, 2003)

I thought I'd just add something that I like. This is from Morgoth's Ring.



> They do not desire bodies, neither do they seek shelter, nor strive for mastery over body or mind. Indeed they do not seek converse with Men at all, save maybe rarely, either for the doing of some good, or because they perceive in a Man's spirit some love of things ancient and fair. Then they may reveal to him their true forms (through his mind working outwardly, maybe) and he will behold them in their beauty. Of such he may have no fear, though he may feel awe of them.



and..



> For the hearts of true Men uprise in joy to behold the true likenesses of the First-born, their elder kindred; and this joy nothing evil can counterfeit.


----------



## Wonko The Sane (Sep 8, 2003)

Those quotes are beautiful. It makes me feel silvery.

Just some clarification: I'm unfamiliar with Morgoth's Ring. Where is it found? And what context are those quotes taken from?


----------



## Confusticated (Sep 8, 2003)

Morgoth's Ring is the title of The History of Middle-earth vol. X Your best bet if you want to look further into the book is probably a library, then you can order it from a bookstore if you like it.


The quote is from 'Of the Laws and Customs Among the Eldar...' Christopher Tolkien gives it in with some later Silmarillion writings his father did, but he does not think it was ment to be part of The Silmarillion. It is just a lot of information about elves put together by a man, not elves. It has information such as marriage customs, things dealing with death, and the nature of elves in general.


----------



## Wonko The Sane (Sep 8, 2003)

Wow! Thanks.  That sounds very interesting, I think Snaga has a copy, I'll have to borrow it.
Thanks for answering my pitifully underinformed questions. I really appreciate it.


----------



## Bucky (Sep 9, 2003)

> I'm unfamiliar with Morgoth's Ring. Where is it found?



In the New Fairfield, CT Library.
I just got it shipped in.... 

You can buy 'em for $23 on EBAY too.
$29 in the bookstores, no paperbacks.


PS: Wonka The Sane?
As in "I'm a sock" fame?


----------



## Inderjit S (Sep 9, 2003)

Their in most good book stores. Such as Waterstones (Britain) and other outlets, or whatever the American equivalent is. (Barnes and Noble?) Strangely, I've never found any HoME in WHSmith. And also on the net as Bucky says.


----------



## Wonko The Sane (Sep 13, 2003)

Thank you everybody!  I really appreciate it.
 I think I'll check out Snaga's copy while I'm in England and then see if it's something I want to buy. 

And Bucky, it's WonkO The Sane...and yes. I DID used to be a sock.
Not any more though!


----------

