# Elvish fears for an uncertain end?



## Ancalagon (May 5, 2003)

> Beyond the 'End of Arda' Elvish thought could not penetrate, and they were without any specific instruction. It seemed clear to them that their hröar must then end, and therefore any kind of re-incarnation would be impossible. All the Elves would then 'die' at the End of Arda. What this would mean they did not know. They said therefore that Men had a shadow behind them, but the Elves had a shadow before them.
> Their dilemma was this: the thought of existence as fëar only was revolting to them, and they found it hard to believe that it was natural or designed for them, since they were essentially 'dwellers in Arda', and by nature wholly in love with Arda. The alternative: that their fëar would also cease to exist at 'the End', seemed even more intolerable. Both absolute annihilation, and cessation of conscious identity, were wholly repugnant to thought and desire. *Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth*


One point is certain in the Elvish tradition, that they cannot comprehend their own own end, once the cycle of Arda was complete. One might even think that Elves would fear that Eru had offered The Edain a way out, while they remained confined to the bitter end? Could it be that Elves feared death even more so than Men, because for them it would appear Arda's demise signified their own, while Men departed to a place set aside for them by Eru?


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## Walter (May 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ancalagon _
> *One point is certain in the Elvish tradition, that they cannot comprehend their own own end, once the cycle of Arda was complete. One might even think that Elves would fear that Eru had offered The Edain a way out, while they remained confined to the bitter end? Could it be that Elves feared death even more so than Men, because for them it would appear Arda's demise signified their own, while Men departed to a place set aside for them by Eru? *


 Finrod addresses this problem more than once, IIRC, but it seems to me that Tolkien made several attempts to "indicate a possible way out" (c.f chapter "Re-birth..." in "Laws and Customs..", Authors Notes to the "Athrabeh" (esp. 1 & 7), etc.).

I am not sure that Tolkien - when he first developed the concept of the "harmony" between the "hröa" and the "fëa" was aware of all it's consequences, hence it would seem natural - to me - that he lateron tried to amend it.

Aside from that I think that the whole issue was one of the "philosophical questions" that bothered Tolkien the most throughout the second half of his lifetime...


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## Chymaera (May 10, 2003)

It is hard to contemplate infinity being mortal, but being immortal for a finite time would be confining.

Is it not said that there will be a final Music of the Ainur where the Ainur and the Childern of Ilúvatar will come together at the end of the world and sing before Ilúvatar. After that all things are in doubt, but there is also hope.

If I could remember where I read this I would be happy. but I can't so I am not.


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## Walter (May 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Chymaera _
> It is hard to contemplate infinity being mortal, but being immortal for a finite time would be confining.
> 
> Is it not said that there will be a final Music of the Ainur where the Ainur and the Childern of Ilúvatar will come together at the end of the world and sing before Ilúvatar. After that all things are in doubt, but there is also hope.
> ...


 Maybe the "Second Music of the Ainur" (Sil, BoLT 1, Lost Road, Morgoth's Ring)?


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## Confusticated (May 10, 2003)

> ...though it is said that a mightier far shall be woven before the seat of Iluvatar by the choirs of both Ainur and the sons of Men after the Great End.



That is from _The Music of the Ainur_ in BoLT. In the next Ainulindale that Tolkien wrote in the 30s, the sons of men was changed to "the children of Iluvatar", and never changed back. CRT says:



> It is possible that the change in the first passage was unintentional, the
> substitution of another common phrase, and that this was never subsequently picked up.



But he let "The Children of Iluvatar" stand for the published Silmarillion.


As for the Ainulindale that he wrote in the 30s, the first one since the BoLT Music of Ainur, CRT says in his introduction to the Ainulindale in The Lost Road:


> ...it is remarkable in this case he went back to the actual text of the originl _Music of the Ainur_. The new version was composed with the 'Lost Tale' in front of him, and indeed he followed it fairly closely, thought rephrasing it at every point - a great contrast to the apparent jump between the rest of the 'Valinorean' narrative in the Lost Tales and the 'Sketch', where it seems possible that he wrote out the condensed synopsis without re-reading them.



From the published Sil:


> ...though it has been said that a greater still shall be made before Iluvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Iluvatar after the end of days.


I really do not see why this could not include elves. Perhaps someone else can fill me in as to why CRT thinks it was a slip that went unnoticed rather than a change.

Also, what does ' the end of days' mean here? The End of Arda, or of something more? 

Even though elves have this shadow before them, and may even dread death, I have a thought that if elves ever end, it will be of their own will when the time comes. To rival men's fear of death the elves have the grief of the loss of the world as they grow old with it.

PS: I know this didn't answer your question, Ancalagon. When do I ever. I just imagine more sorrow than fear, for the elves.


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## Walter (May 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Nóm _
> I really do not see why this could not include elves. Perhaps someone else can fill me in as to why CRT thinks it was a slip that went unnoticed rather than a change.


Maybe he was referring to the contradiction to the statement that is made a few pages later (at the end of chapter 1 of the QS):


> Yet of old the Valar declared to the Elves in Valinor that Men shall join in the Second Music of the Ainur; whereas Ilúvatar has hot revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the World's end, and Melkor has not discovered it.





> _Originally posted by Nóm _
> Also, what does ' the end of days' mean here? The End of Arda, or of something more?


 IMO probably Eä rather than just Arda, but I don't think T was ever really specific here. 

However, taking into consideration that T might have been drawing a parallel to other mythologies (Ragna-rök, Satan's doom in Revelation 20-21) it would have to be rather Arda then Eä...


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## Confusticated (May 10, 2003)

Yes, that may be why he thinks it was a slip. It is a contradiction.

I'm not sure if it is plain what I was driving at. The reason I ask if 'the end of days' means the end of Arda or of Ea, is that if it means Ea, that is further evidence that it was a slip.
If 'it is said' then it must be said by elves, or at least was ment to have been at the time he wrote it, it would imply the elves thought they would be around at the end of Ea, and therefore beleived they would outlast Arda, since Arda must end before Ea does (they must know this, being in contact with the Valar ).

The term 'end of days' does sound like the end of Ea, the end of time. So it must be believed that men at least will last beyond the end of time. If the elves think this, and believe that they will end with Arda, then it is no wonder that they might have a hard time with men's jealousy of the 'immortality' of the elves. Lasting beyond Arda is one thing, but beyond Ea, or beyond time is even more, and I had not thought of that before. Even so, I don't imagine them having a lot of fear of their end.

These things are probably obvious to most but I hadn't thought about this 'end of days' much until today.


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## Walter (May 10, 2003)

Well, I said _"IMO probably Eä rather than just Arda"_ because having a "Second Music of the Ainur" _within_ the creation (Eä) would not seem logical, if "the end of days" is to be the "the end of time and space" it cannot be within it. Also Tolkien on several occasions pointed out that Eru remains outside his creation.

On the other hand Tolkien, in "Myths Transformed VII", sounds as if only Arda (occasionally only Middle-earth) had been "marred" by Morgoth, but then the issue arises what else do we have within Eä that is not Arda? And why "destroy" those unmarred parts?


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## Inderjit S (May 10, 2003)

> Morgoth, but then the issue arises what else do we have within Eä that is not Arda? And why "destroy" those unmarred parts?



Tolkien hints at 'other' planets or worlds apart from Arda, in M.T



> Others there were countless to our thoughts though known each and numbered in the mind of Iluvutar, whose labour lay elsewhere and in other regions and histories of the great tales. amid stars remote and worlds beyond the reach of the furthest thought. But of these others we know nothing and cannot know, though the Valar of Arda, maybe remember them all....



So it is apparent that there may have been a number of Ainuric spirits lurking about, so to speak, Ea possibly some of these turned to Melko worship when he was driven out of Arda by Tulkas or even after his execution by Namo. I am sceptical about other civilisations existing inside of Ea.


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## Walter (May 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Inderjit S _
> *Tolkien hints at 'other' planets or worlds apart from Arda, in M.T
> 
> 
> ...


 Good, point, Inderjit, but I feel that Tolkien never really elaborated on this issue...


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## Inderjit S (May 15, 2003)

> Good, point, Inderjit, but I feel that Tolkien never really elaborated on this issue...



Possibly because he wanted to leave 'space' etc to C.S Lewis as they agreed. I believe this is mentioned somewhere in the notes to 'The Lost Road', though C.S Lewis's space stories were published etc Tolkien never got far in his story on the fall of Numenor, but this latter became the 'Akallebeth'. 

Tolkien makes some interesting comments on the destruction of Arda-Ea in the Athrabeth. 



> Arda, or 'The Kingdom of Arda' (as being directly under the
> kingship of Eru's vice-gerent Manwe) is not easy to translate,
> since neither 'earth' nor 'world' are entirely suitable. Physically Arda was what we should call the Solar System. Presumably the Eldar could have had as much and as accurate information concerning this, its structure, origin, and its relation to the rest of Ea (the Universe) as they could comprehend. Probably those who were interested did acquire this knowledge. Not all the Eldar were interested in everything; most of them concentrated their attention on (or as they said 'were in love with') the Earth.







> he Elves expected the End of Arda to be
> catastrophic. They thought that it would be brought about by the dissolution of the structure of Imbar at least, if not of the
> whole system. The End of Arda is not, of course, the same thing as the end of Ea. About this they held that nothing could be known, except that Ea was ultimately finite. It is noteworthy that the Elves had no myths or legends dealing with the end of the world. The myth that appears at the end of the Silmarillion is of Numenorean origin; it is clearly made by Men, though Men acquainted with Elvish tradition. All Elvish traditions are presented as 'histories', or as accounts of what once was.
> We are here dealing with Elvish thought at an early period, when the Eldar were still fully 'physical' in bodily form. Much
> ...


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## Walter (Dec 12, 2003)

*bump*


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## Walter (Apr 19, 2004)

Aaaaah, some of the bare bones - or should I say "raw gems"? - of OiE exhumed once again...


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## Inderjit S (Apr 19, 2004)

I think eventually 'immortality' may have been as much as a curse as death as a "gift". Men we're pretty short-sighted. Maybe the Elves had enough trust in Eru to know that whatever he decreed after Arda's end was for the "best"?

Never mind. there is plenty of information in HoME 10 anyway. (hehe, lazy, lazy Inder.)


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