# Orc hygiene & mental health?



## Obbit Trifill (Jan 3, 2002)

Other than what was revealed in LOTR, do you ever find yourself wondering about Orcs, or having questions about them that the book did not answer?

J.R.R. Tolkien was very thorough in fleshing out most of the "characters" of Middle Earth. Especially complete were his descriptions of hobbits and their habits. In these areas, he more than adequately covered most bases and did not leave much to the reader's imagination or curiosity.

However, when it comes to Orcs...

Very bad teeth. Dirty faces. Lots of grunting. Horrible table manners. Unhealthly-looking eyes. Poor posture. Undoubtedly smelly. Stressful. Quick to anger. Always violent. And though muscular and fast, dozens seem to become easily butchered before they are able to defeat even one swordsman, which raises questions about their combative skills as well as their IQs.

How did Orcs survive childhood, let alone puberty with such obviously poor hygiene? Did they ever brush their teeth? And with the kind of teeth and wretched gums they had, would not decay and infections eventually spread and rot their brains? So how did they grow up to become adult Orcs?

And what kind of teenage or young-adult Orcs are we talking about here, thanks to an upbringing seemingly berift of emotional love and nurture?

Aside from meat, did Orcs enjoy up to five servings a day from the fruit and vegetable food groups?

And what motivates militant Orcs to so obediently attack and die--in such great numbers--especially when it is obvious so many of them will, indeed, die? And if only wounded? (Did Orc armies have medics or Orc hospitals for Orc verterans injured in battle?)

Just wondering what kind of questions others might have when it comes to Orcs?


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## Melian (Jan 3, 2002)

Indeed,Obbit Trifill,you have a point.This question touched my heart...Just imagine the death rate among sweet little orcs.(oh,I need to calm down before I go on).
Now,seriously speaking,did it never occurred to you that orcs were actually turned out in the black factories of Sauron and Saruman,and that they in fact were a masterpiece of genetic sciences?
First of all,there were no female orcs(that's enough to prove they did not reproduce like humans,for example).
I think it's logical that they were devoid of other hmm,essential systems of their organisms.In fact,I'm sure that they were directly turned out as matured orcs.Hence,as they were programmed as military units,I bet they were designed to live as robots with some emotions.


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## Telchar (Jan 3, 2002)

No female orcs? Hmm.. I do think there are female orcs, I haven't found anything that says the opposite, so i think the orcs breed as humans do.. And I do think they had some sort of medics when they went to war, but I don't know to what extend they tended the wounded.. As for why the Orcs served Morgoth and Sauron, the answer is; out of fear.. Remember that the orcs are evil, they are made in mockery of either men or elves, or both perhaps, and they know nothing but evil.. Morgoth used much of his will and power when creating the Orc, so their road is locked on an evil path..


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## Melian (Jan 3, 2002)

So you think there are females...Interesting,it may be so.Then they must be like the Dwarvish females who are always hidden .
But I think over it again.The first orcs were tortured Elves,right?I guess they were captured Elven soldiers.It's not very likely that Elven maids fought in the wars,hence they could not be captured.So how could female orcs be produced?I still think that my factory-theory seems more probable.


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## Telchar (Jan 3, 2002)

By what reason do you think it was soldiers that where first captured?


> For by afterknowledge the wise declared that Melkor, ever watchful, was first aware of the awakening of the Quendi, and sent shadows and evil spirits to spy upon them and waylay them. So it came to pass, some years ere the coming of Oromë, that if any of the Elves strayed far abroad, alone or few together, they would often vanish, and never return; and the Quendi said that the Hunter had caught them, and they where afraid. -Silmarillion p. 46 -


 So it is most likely that some of these had to be female Elves..



> But of those unhappy once who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty. For who of the living has descended into the pits of Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor? Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of crueltywere corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breedther hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes. For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Iluvatar; and naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance of life, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion in the Ainulinfalë before the beginning; so say the wise. And deep in their dark hearts the Orcs loathed the Master whom they served in fear, the Maker only of their misery.. -Silmarillion p. 47-


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## Wizdon (Jan 3, 2002)

Orcs originated as tortured and mutilated elves. There are no female orcs and I believe they breed in mud pits. 

This information comes from 'A Guide to Tolkien'.


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## DGoeij (Jan 3, 2002)

Orcs tended their wounded at least to some degree. Remember that Merry was given some Orc-draugth, both to drink and smeered on his wound after he and Pippin were taken capture? 
Orcs came in many different shapes and sizes. The smaller ones usually bullied in the front-lines by the bigger ones I guess. Orcs are rather primitive fighters, like in the middle ages here on earth, so I beleive someone with some skill with a sword could handle quite a number of them. And all members of the Fellowship (aside from the Hobbits) were seasoned veterans in figthing orcs.

Besides, because they were mutilated Elves (both male and female, if you take the Silmarillon into account) they hated anything else that lived. Killing was all they could think of. And sheer numbers compensated for the short live expectancy I guess.


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## Telchar (Jan 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Wizdon _
> *Orcs originated as tortured and mutilated elves. There are no female orcs and I believe they breed in mud pits.
> This information comes from 'A Guide to Tolkien'. *



How can you say that for sure? Since there are no statment saying whitch gender there are among the Orcs are we to say that they where just males, or on the other hand just female? And it states in the silmarillion, as quoted above, that they breed like the children of Iluvatar.. ..and i don't think there are many among the humans that breed in the mud pits..


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## ReadWryt (Jan 3, 2002)

Um, what part of "For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Iluvatar" made you think that Elves (Known through out the Silmarillion as The Children of Illuvitar) bred by sprouting out of Mud Pits?


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## Elanor2 (Jan 3, 2002)

Another point concerning their health. If Orcs are corrupted Elves that Morgoth kidnapped, they might retain some of their elvish resistance to sickness, so they would need little "maintenance". Just some droughts to give strength and heal cuts, as they gave Pippin and Merry.

Another can of worms. Do Orcs die of old age or live like the Elves until they are killed? That would explain why they multiply so fast in times of darkness (fact mentioned several times in many books).

To add more confusion. The Uruk-kai of Saruman are a new brand of orcs, created (perhaps) following Morgoth's ancient recipe by Saruman (always the copycat). So what the movie shows might be the "old" way to create orcs, before they were released to multiply on their own.

The "old" orcs follow Sauron, the heir of Morgoth, their original creator. Saruman cannot hope to control the "old" orcs completely because of that, so he is trying to create his own. The Uruk-kai would follow Saruman, their "daddy", nor Sauron (or so Saruman probably believes). 

Also, perhaps Saruman used Humans and nor Elves, since Elves there are now few and Humans are more handy (and more easy to control, apparently). Gandalf and Aragorn hint at that when talking of Saruman's work. That would explain the differences (besides Saruman's own improvements).


I hope I was clear here. Regards. Elanor2.


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## Telchar (Jan 3, 2002)

I don't think Orcs are imortal and it is said, that they in stature and body recemble Men more than Elves.. I can't give you a quote on that right now since I don't have all my books here. Know I've read something about Orcs and imortality somewhere.. hmm..

The "creation" of Orcs in the movie, the old way of making orcs? It still dosn't fitt in with the part that "Melkor could not create living beeings" so he had to breed them, generation by generation.. And The Children of Illuvatar don't lay eggs and wait for them to hatch(sp?)..


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## Elanor2 (Jan 3, 2002)

Telchar,

"create" is perhaps the wrong word in a sense. They do not really create (as in making something out of nothing as Iluvatar does) but create in the sense of transforming something into something new.

In the movie, they use a pit of mud, but in the book, that does not appear and we really do not know how is it done. Breeding can also be the way

If Morgoth/Saruman take and elf/human and bury it in an enchanted "pit of mud" (or whatever other method), over the time, with torture, etc, the original can be "transformed" into another creature. 

Besides, if Saruman uses humans, it is possible that perhaps the process can be done faster than what Morgoth did with the elves. In the book they mention the strange looks of some of the human visitors from the south, that looked almost like orcs. Perhaps intermediate breeding stock?

It is all speculation anyway.

Regards. Elanor2.


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## Telchar (Jan 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Elanor2 _
> *Telchar,
> 
> If Morgoth/Saruman take and elf/human and bury it in an enchanted "pit of mud" (or whatever other method), over the time, with torture, etc, the original can be "transformed" into another creature. *



In my opinion, i don't think the defenition of breeding can support that view..

I'll have to get back to this when I have my books infront of the computer..


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## Lantarion (Jan 3, 2002)

I think Orcs did multiply 'normally', but I try to think of it like animals mating, because it's too sick otherwise.. 
And I've never heard of or even pictured an Orc- baby. I had always pictured that they were born, and then transformed straight into the hulks they are by some weird machines or magic.. But I haven't really thought about it, it's not a pleasant subject to think about..


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## Elanor2 (Jan 3, 2002)

Telchar

Quote from your own post: 
>>>Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves,...<<< Sil, p47

You are focusing on the word "breed" and not in the previous bit "by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved". This might imply that there was some previous process of "corruption" necessary. That does not invalidate the breeding, but might imply a combined process.

Since it is not mentioned specifically how did Morgoth or Saruman create the old orcs or the Uruk-kai, it is not unreasonable to think that they used similar methods, whatever they were.

As I said, the pit of mud is the movie interpretation of the "making" of the Uruk-kai by Saruman. It is not mentioned in the book. In fact, breeding, as at least part of the process, seems to be a strong possibility in view of what they imply about the looks of Saruman's human spies in Bree.

Regards. Elanor2


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## Telchar (Jan 3, 2002)

About Orcs and Imortality;


> They could be slain, and they where subject to diseases; but apart from these ills they died and were not imortal, even according to the manner of the Quendi; indeed they appear to have been by nature rather short-lived compared with the span of Men of higher race, such as the Edain.
> 
> HoME X; Morgoths Ring p. 418



And for the breeding done by Saruman;


> It became clear in time that undoubted Men could under the domination of Morgoth or his agents in a few generations be reduced almost to the Orc-level of mind and habits; and then they would or could be made to mate with Orcs, producing new breeds, often larger and more cunning. There is no doubt that long afterwards, in the Third Age, Saruman rediscovered this, or learned in lore, and in his lust for mastery commited this, his wickedest deed: the interbreeding of Orcs and Men, producing both Men-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile.
> Home X; Morgoths Ring p. 418-19


That atleast clears out the mud pits in the movie..


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## Telchar (Jan 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Elanor2 _
> *You are focusing on the word "breed" and not in the previous bit "by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved". This might imply that there was some previous process of "corruption" necessary. That does not invalidate the breeding, but might imply a combined process.*



By corroption, in my opinion, i think more of the mind and fea(spirit) in this case..


> It is true of course, that Morgoth held the Orcs in dire thraldom; for in their corruption they had lost almost all possibility of resisting the domination of his will. So great was indeed did its pressure upon them become ere Angband fell that, if he turned his thoughts towards them, they were conscious of his "eye" wherever they may be; and when Morgoth was at last removed form Arda the Orcs that survived in the West were scattered, leaderless and almost witless, and were for a long time without control or purpose.
> HoME X: Morgoths Ring p. 419


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## Elanor2 (Jan 3, 2002)

Aha! So inter-breeding explains the looks of both Uruk-kai and Saruman's spies. It also implies that the orcs were able of reproducing like humans, unless Saruman was playing with a glass tube like in Jurassic park.

Still, I am curious to know how the original orcs came to be. Inter-breeding does not explain it, since there was only one race then, the kidnapped elves. I have the feeling that the "corruption" mentioned is not only mental (that as well, of course), but somehow physical as well. Otherwise, orcs would look like elves physically, and it is not so.

Of course, Gollum does not look like a hobbit either, and he was not tortured (or thrown into a mud pit (c, so, can we say that the external appearance is a reflection of the inner one? 

Or is there, somehow, physical "corruption" inflicted externally?

Regards. Elanor2


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## Evenstar (Jan 3, 2002)

Hmm.. I don't think we can say that external appearance reflects the inside. Remember- Sauraman didn't look evil or corrupted, yet he betrayed The Council in the end. Also, in the matter of how the orcs were tortured I believe the torture was both mental and physical. Over time the elves appearanced changed along with their thoughts. -Evolution and adaptation- due to their living conditions in Mordor.


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## Telchar (Jan 4, 2002)

Saruman did change in a way he was Saruman the White, but became Saruman of Many Colours.... And remember that he was among the Istari, he was a Maia, so he could take the shape he wanted.. Even Sauron could, in earlier days disguise himself with fair looks, like he did in Eregion when he decived the Elves and called himself Anatar (sp?)..

Most likely the captured Quendi was tortured both mentaly and physicaly and I also think that their "outer looks" changes as their inner evil grew.. But there might also be that they where breed with other beasts, or, lesser spirits that had taken bodily form.

By lesser spirits I mean not spirits of the power of those who later became known as Balrogs. I mean spirits of less power, i found no deffenition of how powerful, and where they came from, just that they where corupted by Morgoth, so I asume they came with the Valar and Maiar to Arda. These spirits took the shapes of beasts, and Orcs and in that way many Men and Elves belived that some Orcs were imortal.



> Evolution and adaptation- due to their living conditions in Mordor.


 The Orcs excisted long before Sauron was Dark Lord, he was a Servant of Morgoth when the Orcs first appeared in Beleriand. Mordor didn't become "the dark land" until the Second Age, and by then most people of Middle Earth had encountered(sp?) the Orcs..



> Still, I am curious to know how the original orcs came to be. Inter-breeding does not explain it, since there was only one race then, the kidnapped elves. I have the feeling that the "corruption" mentioned is not only mental (that as well, of course), but somehow physical as well. Otherwise, orcs would look like elves physically, and it is not so.


I agree with you partially. But don't you think also that the condition the captured Quendi lived in could also have helped this condition? As Evenstar said "evolution and adaptation"..


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## Obbit Trifill (Jan 4, 2002)

*But still, it is*

difficult not to wonder whether Orcs were always in the evil-doing, killing mood they were bred, trained or genetically manipulated into being.

Is there not, in all the pages written, any single non-Orcish act committed by any of them?


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## chrome_rocknave (Jan 5, 2002)

How many of you thought orcs bred in mud pits before you saw the movie, and if so how did you come to this conclusion?


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## Lantarion (Jun 8, 2003)

Well as ReadWryt pointed out before, it says in the Silmarillion that they "multiplied after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar", i.e. sexual reproduction.

But: is it stated in any Letters or HoME volumes how Orcs matured?


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## treebeardgarden (Dec 26, 2004)

Elanor2 says,
Aha! So inter-breeding explains the looks of both Uruk-kai and Saruman's spies. It also implies that the orcs were able of reproducing like humans, unless Saruman was playing with a glass tube like in Jurassic park.

Still, I am curious to know how the original orcs came to be. Inter-breeding does not explain it, since there was only one race then, the kidnapped elves. I have the feeling that the "corruption" mentioned is not only mental (that as well, of course), but somehow physical as well. Otherwise, orcs would look like elves physically, and it is not so.

Of course, Gollum does not look like a hobbit either, and he was not tortured (or thrown into a mud pit (c, so, can we say that the external appearance is a reflection of the inner one? 

Or is there, somehow, physical "corruption" inflicted externally?

Regards. Elanor2

Well Elanor2 Don't you think that like Gollum, the original captured elves may have been disfigured by several hundred years before becoming what we think of as orcs. Gollum for example spent 500yrs with no sunlight living in dark wet tunnels, with a very limited diet. That would reduce my somewhat bulky 18stone possibly even my 6ft. I think that is the only way to explain the huge physical difference's between elves and orcs.


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## Shireman D (Dec 26, 2004)

I have only just read this thread, it would be helpful to make reference to the great war between the Dwarves and the Orcs. Azog, Son of Bolg was the orcish chieften in Moria, which is a clear JRRT description of sexual reproduction amongst orcs. It is difficult to imagine an orcish mother showing any depth of affection for her offspring beyond weaning, given what we know of orcish life she would not be doing the child any favours - can you imagine how they would treat a "mummy's boy"?


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## Aglarband (Dec 27, 2004)

I have a strange feeling that the answer to our Orc question could be answered by The Hobbit, though much of this book is outdated since it was writen first, before Tolkein really knew what he wanted Middle-earth to be. If I still had my copy of the book I would look it up, unfourtunatly I don't.


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## Bombadillo (Jan 4, 2005)

What I find interesting about orks is not the way they simply followed their leader Sauron/ Saruman, but where able to make a working hierarchy on their own...

This is stated in the hobbit, although I'm not gonna quote. 

The orks living in the misty mountains have a king, and seem to behave rather human, with eating halls and parties etc... (how would a ork-party look like? some crossing of a foodfight and a beerdrinking contest or something?) 
But still, this is a nice opposite to the watchtower in Mordor, where all the orks kill eachother. (you have to realise that in that time there was a struggle for power between the normal orks and the uruk-hai)


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## Hammersmith (Jan 19, 2005)

As DGoeij wisely points out, the Orcs have their medicines. The breeding question seems pretty well settled, but here's a thought. I always assumed Saruman's Uruk Hai were Uruks/Orcs/Goblins (all synonymous and interchangeable terms, yes?) that had been forcibly bred with humans. It would answer a lot of questions. I don't have a copy of the book to hand, but I seem to remember both the Southron and the other orky looking humans, and also the suggestion that the Orcs were crossed with humans, making them stronger and smarter.

Regarding food, the Great Goblin in the hobbit is said to have sent his minions down to Gollum's cave for fresh fish - the hapless messengers often succumbing to Gollum's own appetite - which suggests that if they could get it, Goblins/Orcs, etc, would have tastes similar to humans. Again, the implication that they would eat it raw, like Gollum, raises the possibility that their torment is similar to his, and would leave them averse to elven foods. Though that last part has little literary basis and is surely stretching.

I wouldn't give the orcs a high life span, as much as I would like to. I think that the more tortured and twisted they became in the transitional process, the fewer strengths and original elven powers they would have. Otherwise why would they not have the elven qualities of strength, stamina, expertise with weaponry, etc? Also factoring in the fantastic infighting that Tolkein gives us and a high mortality rate would be expected, if not guaranteed.

As for brushing their teeth....I pass.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Jan 21, 2005)

Obbit Trifill said:


> ...do you ever find yourself wondering about Orcs, or having questions about them that the book did not answer?...when it comes to Orcs...Very bad teeth. Dirty faces...Undoubtedly smelly....Quick to anger. Always violent...How did Orcs survive childhood, let alone puberty...



Actually, such thoughts have never crossed my mind, but a sincere and heartfelt tip of the hat to those who do: they obviously fulfill a most fetorous (albeit necessary) duty delving into areas that most of us would find intensely distasteful. I recommend double overtime (or even combat) pay for all such bravehearts... 

Barley


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## Nazgul Officer (Jan 21, 2005)

Well, lets just say that orcs did not have much of a childhood anyway as they were dug out of the ground because they used to be elves at one time. I think this may be the answer, but if anyone has a different opinion let me know.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Jan 21, 2005)

Barliman Butterbur said:


> Actually, such thoughts have never crossed my mind, but a sincere and heartfelt tip of the hat to those who do: they obviously fulfill a most fetorous (albeit necessary) duty delving into areas that most of us would find intensely distasteful. I recommend double overtime (or even combat) pay for all such bravehearts...



Come to think of it, there's a _fortune_ to be made for the one who could figure out how to market and sell a line of _orc hygiene products_ — colognes, skin creams, soaps, deoderants, mouthwashes, toothpastes, etc. — and after _that_ perhaps a line of vitamin/mineral supplements, ayurvedic medicines, blood tonics... 

Barley


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## baragund (Jan 21, 2005)

N.O., there's a pretty decent amount of references throughout Tolkien's writings of orcs _breeding_. Digging them out of mud pits is a flight of fancy taken by the filmmakers that's pretty cool to watch but doesn't jive with Tolkien's descriptions.

As to the hygiene thing, it seems to me that that just wasn't a priority in orc culture (such as it is). Sure, they have some kind of consideration to medicines (Remember the famous brown liquor and brown salve that was administered to Merry when they were being hauled by the Uruk-hai across Rohan?) So I don't think those things were completely _absent_ but just at a really crude level. Even picking one's teeth with a stick can be considered oral hygiene. Don't forget it wasn't all that long ago that western culture considered bathing to be unhealthy. 

Another thing I'd like to point out is to make sure everyone is aware that the filmmakers portrayal of orcs may not be the quite image that Tolkien had in mind. If you read through the physical description of the goblins and orcs in the books and then you see them in the movies, I think people will agree that the filmmakers made an interpretation of them to be as hideous looking as possible. (Well, at least _I_ didn't have quite so gruesome an image in my mind's eye when I imagined orcs and goblins and even trolls before I saw the films.)

The one thing I have to wonder is how drunk/hynotized/brainwashed/drugged do you have to get someone before he will be amorous with an orc maiden??


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## Barliman Butterbur (Jan 21, 2005)

baragund said:


> The one thing I have to wonder is how drunk/hynotized/brainwashed/drugged do you have to get someone before he will be amorous with an orc maiden??



Ha! There's _another_ idea: starting a line of liquor specially for orcs!

Barley


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## Hyarmendacil (Jan 29, 2005)

baragund said:


> The one thing I have to wonder is how drunk/hynotized/brainwashed/drugged do you have to get someone before he will be amorous with an orc maiden??


 
What makes you so sure it was orc women? Saruman could just as easily taken women and have orcs have their way with them. Tada! Instant Uruk-hai.


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## Ceorl (Jan 30, 2005)

I think the Silmarillion quote, pretty much confirms that the Orcs were bred, and that the mud pit was probably the result of a lot of discussion by the filmmakers on how they could show Orc-Human interbreeding, without offending people.

I read a theory, quite a while ago on another site, which suggested(through very good research) that several of the earliest, and strongest orcs under Morgoth were some of the spirits that he corrupted, although the Elves undoubtedly formed the basis for his original corruption and breeding program. 

In TtT while Sam is stuck locked out of the tower, he hears the two orc captains talking:



> 'if we get a chance, you and me'll slip off and set up somewhere on our own with a few trusty lads, somewhere where there's good loot nice and handy, and no big bosses.' 'Ah! Like old times'



The old times have to refer to a period where the orcs had nearly run of the land, with no big bosses and 'loot nice and handy', the only time period I can link that to would be the end of the second age, after Sauron was taken to Numenor. If that is so, and these two(Gorbag and Shagrat) remember such times, then it should be safe to say that they have at least some portion of Elven immortality. Perhaps someone will be able to devise a better time period for this to refer to, but remember that after the second age the Men of Westernesse were almost always there, and that after the Last Alliance the orcs would have been pretty crushed, and not really in a position to feel free and safe.


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## Elfwine (Jan 31, 2005)

I wonder what would happen if you tried to raise an Orc infant in a positive environment? 
I think an Orc is genetically similar to a man. Maybe if they were left on their own they would create some kind of culture that wasnt so evil? I think there are men in the book who are as evil as any Orc, who could have been happy people, so why not the other way around.


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## baragund (Jan 31, 2005)

Ceorl, I always thought the "old times" that Shagrat and Gorbag talked about was something more recent, before Sauron rebuilt Barad-dur and and started his hunt for the Ring. 

Before Sauron started to rise in power, the orcs/goblins were fewer in number but they had more or less independent little "kingdoms". The goblin king and the goblin leader in the Battle of Five Armies (can't remember his name) in The Hobbit come to mind. But you're right, the "good ole' days" could just as easily be the entire Third Age before Sauron's rise as well as the period at the end of the Second Age when Sauron dwelt in Numenor.

Elfwine, you bring up a really interesting topic.  It's the old "nature vs. nurture" thing. You may want to post this topic and your thoughts in a new thread in order to get some discussion going.


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## Ceorl (Jan 31, 2005)

You're right Baragund, I fear I mayhave posted without thinking in too much detail, the period during the hobbit could be the time referred to, although I would have thought of those as orcs of the Misty Mountains and not likely to be in the direct service of Mordor. I get the impression that at that time Gondor and Rohan held all power in the south and that few orcs would have existed there.

On the nature/nurture topic the process becomes more complicated when looking at orcs as corrupted descendants of Elves, and asking what exactly is their nature?


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## Greenwood (Feb 16, 2005)

I think it has been pretty well established that orcs bred as other living creatures did, but there is another point to remember in these discussions. All the orcs we meet in LOTR are in some kind of "military" unit: troops attacking Helm's Deep and Minas Tirith; raiding parties such as Ugluk's; garrison troops such as Gorbag's and Shagrat's, etc. Among human's it is not usual to have small children in such military formations. Also at the time Tolkien was writing, it was not normal to have women in frontline military units, as all the orc groups we encounter in LOTR are. For these reasons alone it is not surprosing that there is no mention of orc children or females in LOTR. They simply are not relevant to the story


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## Hammersmith (Feb 16, 2005)

Elfwine said:


> I wonder what would happen if you tried to raise an Orc infant in a positive environment?
> I think an Orc is genetically similar to a man. Maybe if they were left on their own they would create some kind of culture that wasnt so evil? I think there are men in the book who are as evil as any Orc, who could have been happy people, so why not the other way around.


 
That's a very interesting point, though I disagree. Definitely room for discussion. I would think, though, that Morgoth's initial tainting of the fallen elves/orcs/humans/whichever understanding you have of it - would have ingrained something so totally evil and depraved that it would be all but undoable. Would not the elves in the Silmarillion have sought for ways to reconvert their fallen comrades and their offspring, were it possible? And remember, there is the whole aspect of generational curses in the Sil, such as Hurin and Turin and their various relations. Turin was under the shadow of Morgoth's curse, even though he had no direct contact with him. Therefore, Tolkien would probably favour the argument that it is possible for a variable to affect development strongly even without direct (nurture) contact.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Feb 16, 2005)

Hammersmith said:


> ...Would not the elves in the Silmarillion have sought for ways to reconvert their fallen comrades and their offspring, were it possible?



Now _there's_ an interesting notion! Let us remember however, that it was the _first elves out of the box,_ so to speak, right at the Awakening, where they were captured and changed. They had no chance, just like baby turtles who get snatched up and eaten by seagulls seconds after hatching!

Barley


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## The Bull Roarer (Feb 18, 2005)

I agree, i think the filmmakers endulged a bit in the orcs, to make the audience hate them more, but they seem to have kept the orc mannerisms fairly well


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