# Population and density of elves



## Gil-Galad (Jul 20, 2002)

I was looking at the map of Arda when I asked myself some questions about elves,their density and population.
Neither The Sil nor UT provides much information about that.What was the approximate population of elves in Arda,which was the the place with biggest density and did many elves dwelled other places in Arda.
About population I really have no idea how many elves dwelled Arda.do you have any idea?
About the density;
-I don't know whether Feanor's sons had many elves with them but I doubt there were any big cities such as Gondolin.
-Doriath-Thingol didn't like much Noldors so only his people lived there and not much from the Noldors.Thingol's lands were protected from Melian and that's why I don't think much elves lived there.
-Hitlum,Nevrast,Dor-Lomin,-they were dwelled once but most elves had gone to the South.
-Gondolin-that seems to be one of the biggest cities in Arda.All elves of Turgon lived there.But they didn't have much territory and it was really crowded .But Gondolin's population wasn't so much,I think.There wasn't any contact with other elves(with little exceptions).
-Nargothrond-Probably the city with biggest population.It wasn't so protected as Gondolin and all elves were allowed to go there.That made Nargothrond probably the biggest city.
I managed to answer as I see the situation but what do you think?What about other territories?
Every idea is welcomed!!!


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## imladris (Jul 21, 2002)

I agree on your idea of gondolin because only a few elves knew where it was.

but as for Doriath, I think it was pretty crowded because the elves there lived a long time in peace without losing many elves and they were living there since they came to that place (before the other elves reached Aman.

I don't know if the sons of Feanor were with many, but I guess not.


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## aragil (Jul 22, 2002)

It all depends on what you consider to be a large city. Personally, I think anything over 10,000 would be considered huge in the time of both the Silmarillion or The Lord of the Rings.

For the Battle of Un-numbered tears Gondolin was able to field a force of 10,000 strong, presumably all male. To me this suggests that *at least* 30,000 Elves lived in Gondolin, more after the Nirnaeth. However, when Gondolin was first built it was not the Noldor capitol, Hithlum was. So Hithlum probably had more than 30,000 Elves, though most of those were probably wiped out while the seige of Angband was broken.
When the Noldor were leaving Valinor, it was twice mentioned that the bulk of the Elves followed Fingolfin (Feanor and co. have to wait at Alqualonde for the bulk of the forces, and it is a minority of Elves who cross the Ocean in the Tererin boats, leaving the majority to the Helcaraxe). However, I imagine the followers of Feanor were somewhere on the same order of magnitude as those following Fingolfin. If I had to put numbers on it (wildly, off the top of my head):
Fingolfin + Fingon: 30,000-40,000
Turgon: 30,000
Finrod, Orodreth, and A-brothers: 20,000
Feanor and House: 20,000

This would be a grand total of over 100,000 Noldor- enough to provide for what I would call several 'large' cities.
As far as the Sindar are concerned, the Teleri were originally a much larger kindred than either the Vanyar of the Noldor. The Teleri were split roughly in half when Elwe stayed in Beleriand, so I would say that they at least matched the 100,000+ of the Noldor, with the vast majority of those living either with Cirdan down at the havens or with Thingol in Doriath.
Incidentally, there is legend that HoME v. 11 (the War of the Jewels) has a history accounting for the firstborn of the Elves, and would give some reckoning of how many Elves there were. I own the book, but have not yet read it, so all of the above is wild speculation.

Just for fun, looking across the ages we see the mostly-Sylvan realm of Thranduil (in Mirkwood) fielding about 1000 elves at the battle of Five Armies (Am I just making that up? I can't recall). As this force was not necessarily prepared for the battle, it probably wasn't every combat-worthy Elf in the realm. Again doing some hasty guesstimation, I'd put Thranduil's realm at about 6-8,000 Elves, and it was considered one of the 'Big Four' in the West of Middle-earth at the end of the 3rd Age (the others being Lindon, Lorien, and Imladris).

How do Men stack up? Well, the ~10,000 men that marched with Aragorn and the Captains of the West were described as about the size of the vanguard of the Army of Gondor in it's prime. I'd therefore put Gondor at 50,000-60,000 combat-ready men, and this rivalled the strength of Numenor. Wow. Final note- Theoden had hoped to march with 10,000 Rohirrim to Minas Tirith, and Rohan's strength was in Horses, not number of people. Among Men in the 3rd Age 10,000 probably would have been a fairly small national force, much smaller than what the Haradrim or various tribes of Easterlings were fielding.


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## Tar-Elenion (Jul 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by aragil _
> When the Noldor were leaving Valinor, it was twice mentioned that the bulk of the Elves followed Fingolfin (Feanor and co. have to wait at Alqualonde for the bulk of the forces, and it is a minority of Elves who cross the Ocean in the Tererin boats, leaving the majority to the Helcaraxe). However, I imagine the followers of Feanor were somewhere on the same order of magnitude as those following Fingolfin. If I had to put numbers on it (wildly, off the top of my head):
> Fingolfin + Fingon: 30,000-40,000
> Turgon: 30,000
> ...



Dont have the books at hand but about 90% of the Noldor in Aman participated in the revolt. Some few of these later repented and returned with Finarfin. Those that continued suffered losses on the Sea and in the Ice. 
Fingolfin's host (including the Finarfinians) was much greater than the Feanorean host. Turgon took a third of the Noldor of Fingolfin's host to Gondolin. Finrod had the largest realm of the greater lords (Fingolfin, Fingon, Maedhros and Finrod himself). 


> Teleri were originally a much larger kindred than either the Vanyar of the Noldor. The Teleri were split roughly in half when Elwe stayed in Beleriand, so I would say that they at least matched the 100,000+ of the Noldor, with the vast majority of those living either with Cirdan down at the havens or with Thingol in Doriath.



The Sindar were much more numerous than the Noldor and they even outnumbered the Noldor in the 'Noldorin' realms (ie they were the majority population in the Noldorin realms).



> Just for fun, looking across the ages we see the mostly-Sylvan realm of Thranduil (in Mirkwood) fielding about 1000 elves at the battle of Five Armies (Am I just making that up? I can't recall).



1000 spearmen plus archers.



> As this force was not necessarily prepared for the battle, it probably wasn't every combat-worthy Elf in the realm. Again doing some hasty guesstimation, I'd put Thranduil's realm at about 6-8,000 Elves, and it was considered one of the 'Big Four' in the West of Middle-earth at the end of the 3rd Age (the others being Lindon, Lorien, and Imladris).



JRRT implies that Thranduil's realm had a greater population than any of the others.



> How do Men stack up? Well, the ~10,000 men that marched with Aragorn and the Captains of the West were described as about the size of the vanguard of the Army of Gondor in it's prime.



I think it was 7000, not 10000.


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## aragil (Jul 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Tar-Elenion _
> *Fingolfin's host (including the Finarfinians) was much greater than the Feanorean host. Turgon took a third of the Noldor of Fingolfin's host to Gondolin. Finrod had the largest realm of the greater lords (Fingolfin, Fingon, Maedhros and Finrod himself).*



Fingolfin + Fingon: 20,000 
Turgon: 30,000 
Finrod, Orodreth, and A-brothers: 40,000 
Feanor and House: 20,000

Poifect, assuming 10,000 Gondolindrim at NA = 30,000 Elves in Gondolin (nobody saw the switching of Finrod and Fingolfin, right?).

T-E- does HoME 11 have info on the numbers of Elves, or did I make that up?


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## Gil-Galad (Jul 23, 2002)

About Doriath.I don't think it was more populated than Nargothrond because Thingol didn't accept Noldors.So without any connection with the outer world(Noldors) no great development is possible ,at the same time many elves from Doriath were busy wit guarding the north parts from orcs.At the same time Nargothrond long time wasn't disturb from orcs and other creatures of Melkor.
I believe too that The Sindar were much more than Noldors because they had lived there long before Noldors' coming.But how many were there in fact?And what about Feanor's sons,I don't
remember anywhere to be said about their big cities.
About Nargothrond-if it's bigger than Gondolin how many elves were there?50 000?Although aragil says Finrod had 20000 elves I think with the time they became much more becase of contacts with other elves(many Sindar settled near Nargothrond I believe.)


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## aragil (Jul 23, 2002)

Oops- don't mix 'saying' with 'wildly speculating'. My abridged figure for Nargothrond is 40,000, and that is an admitted wild speculation, based on only two facts:
1) There were 10,000 Gondolindrim at the Nirnaeth
2) Nargothrond was larger than Gondolin


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## Tar-Elenion (Jul 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by aragil _
> Fingolfin + Fingon: 20,000
> Turgon: 30,000
> Finrod, Orodreth, and A-brothers: 40,000
> ...




If Turgon took 30000 Noldor and this was a third of the Noldor of Fingolfin then Fingolfin/Fingon should be 60000 (60+30=90, 1/3 of 90 is 30).



> T-E- does HoME 11 have info on the numbers of Elves, or did I make that up?



Yes, in Quendi and Eldar. I cant give the numbers off hand as I dont have my books with me, and my computer being repaired. 
There is a way to get a rough estimate of how many Noldor their were at the time of the revolt, using those numbers.


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## aragil (Jul 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Tar-Elenion _
> *Fingolfin's host (including the Finarfinians)* was much greater than the Feanorean host. *Turgon took a third of the Noldor of Fingolfin's host* to Gondolin. Finrod had the largest realm of the greater lords (Fingolfin, Fingon, Maedhros and Finrod himself).



I was unclear on whether the second "Fingolfin's Host" includes the Finarfinians. If it did, then my figures were ~accurate. If it didn't, then there were a lot more Noldor in Beleriand than I thought! (Going home right now to look through Quendi and Eldar).


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## Gil-Galad (Jul 27, 2002)

aragil,will you check soon in the books?But I agree with you about the population of Noldors in Arda.


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## aragil (Jul 27, 2002)

OK, well here's the numbers from Q&E:

Originally there were 144 Elves born near Cuivienen, and the subsequent kindreds are always recalled as numbers of the original 144. What Q&E doesn't give is absolute numbers of elves- they are always relative to 144, though we can imagine that the actual numbers are some multiple of the following:

Vanyar-14
Noldor-28
Aman Teleri-20
Sindar & Nandor-26
General Avari-56

As TE hinted earlier


> It is recorded that of all the Noldor in Valinor, who were grown now to a great people, but one tithe (i.e. one tenth) refused to take the road: some for love that they bore to the Valar (and Aule not least), some for the love of Tirion and the many things that they had made; none for fear of peril by the way.


 So we can imagine that 25 of the 28 Aman Noldor set out for ME, but not all made it. Some perished in the kinslaying at Alqualonde:


> Thrice the folk of Feanor were driven back, and many were slain upon either side


 and in the boats after the kinslaying:


> But Uinen wept for the mariners of the Teleri; and the sea rose in wrath against the slayers, so that many of the ships were wrecked and those in them drowned.


 Also, following the kinslaying, Finarfin brought many of the Noldor back to Tirion:


> But in that hour Finrod (Finarfin) forsook the march, and turned back, being filled with grief, and with bitterness against the house of Feanor, because of his kinship with Olwe of Alqualonde; and many of his people went with him, retracing their steps in sorrow


 So what proportion of the 25 that set out continued on the journey? Hard to say- I'd guess between 18 and 22. Next of course comes the loss on the Helcaraxe:


> Many there perished, and it was with a lessened host that Fingolfin set foot at last upon the Northalnds of Endar.


By this time most of the 26 Sindar and Nandor were residing in Beleriand, but it is said that


> though the Sindar were not numerous they far outnumbered the hosts of Feanor and Fingolfin, such as in the end survived their dreadful journeys and reached Beleriand.


 and


> though the Sindar were not numerous they much outnumbereed the hosts of Feanor and Fingolfin, such as survived their dreadful journey.


 So we know that of the 25 Noldor that set out, enough turned back or perished during the foundering of the ships and the crossing of the Helcaraxe that the survivors were 'far outnumbered' by the ~26 Sindar in Beleriand. Now, if I were to wildly guess (what else can I do?), I'd say that about 16 of the original 25 Noldor reached Middle-earth. Next,


> Grievous as were their losses upon the road, the people of Fingolfin and Inglor (Finrod) son of Finrod (Finarfin) were still more numerous than the followers of Feanor; wherefore they withdrew before Fingolfin and removed their dwelling to the south-shore, and the Lake (Mithrim) lay between the peoples.


 Well, let's put Feanor's folk at 7 and Fingolfin's and the Finarfinians at 9, after


> But east of Dorthonion the marches of Beleriand were more open to attack, and only hills of no great height guarded the vale of Gelion from the North. Therefore the sons of Feanor with many folk, well nigh half of the people of the Gnomes, dwelt in that region, upon the Marches of Maidros, and in the lands behind


 How much for the Finarfinians?


> But Inglor (Finrod) was King of Nargothrond and overlord of the Dark-elves of the western havens; ... Thus his realm was greatest, though he was the youngest of the great lords of the Gnomes, Fingolfin, Fingon, and Maidros, and Inglor Felagund.


 I'll give the Finarfinians 3 of the 9, leaving Fingolfin and his sons with 6. Now for Gondolin-


> Then Ulmo returned to the Sea; and Turgon sent forth all his folk (even to a third part of the Noldor of Fingolfin's House, and a yet greater host of the Sindar)


 Well, this would be 2 of Fingolfin's 6, but how many Sindar? I'll take 4 (who's going to stop me), for a grand total of 6 parts of the original 144 Elves living in Gondolin. We know that Turgon sent out 10,000 (all male) to the Nirnaeth, and I'll assume he left some men back to guard the city, say 2,000. Assuming equal numbers of men and women in Gondolin, that gives the city 24,000 Elves, which we remember is 6 out of every 144 Elves alive at the time. So roughly we get each part of the original 144 Elves as being ~4,000 Elves in First Age 472. Looking back at the top of my post (I can barely see it), that will give us the following numbers (assuming all Elven populations increased uniformly both in Aman and in Middle-earth):

Vanyar (all in Aman): 56,000
Noldor left in Aman: ~24,000, depending on how many returned with Finarfin
Teleri (in Aman): 80,000
Noldor in Middle-earth: 64,000
Sindar and Nandor: 104,000
Avari: 224,000

Remember, the 104,000 Sindar and Nandor were very spread out, some with Cirdan, most of the Nandor were in Ossiriand, many of the Sindar were in Hithlum and Gondolin, and many were with Finrod, so it's very difficult to say how many were in Doriath.
Going back to my figures for the princes of the Noldor:

Fingolfin and Fingon: 4*4,000=16,000 Noldor, unknown # of Sindar
Turgon: 8,000 Noldor + 16,000 Sindar = 24,000 Elves
Finrod, Orod, A & A: 12,000 Noldor, unknown # of Sindar (Avari?)
Sons of Feanor: 28,000 Noldor, unknown # of Sindar
Cirdan: Who knows
Denethor (Nandor): Haven't a clue
Thingol: Anybody's guess

Yeouch that's a lot of speculation. I guess that aside from all my guesses at Noldor attrition during the journey East, the most important assumptions are that Elven populations grew at the same rate and that 10,000 Gondolindrim Males at NA means a total population of 24,000 in Gondolin. Also, I've ignored Sindar/Nandor attrition up to the NA, which could have been a significant amount, considering the fate of Denethor.


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## Ceorl (Jul 28, 2002)

To Answre some of Gil-Galads questions without the numbers.

Ok I am not going to argue with anyones math, however few things that you missed; Doriath was guarded but that didn't mean that no-one got in. Anyone that was not Noldor and some of the Noldor who were related to Elu Thingol got in as well as most of the host of Denethor(and that is alot). 

Also Nargothrond was guarded more than Doriath, anyone coming near was killed. No-one knew where it was either. It was only revealed to Morgoth after the coming of the Mormegil, who persuaded the council to go forth to open war. no-one was allowed to join with that city so it did not take on refugees. 

You did not mention the March of Maedhros. That had quite a large city I believe. It is mentioned in the chapter of Sil/UT where it tells of Eol and his chasing after his wife when she ran away.

Dor-Lomin was given to the house of Hador and there were very few Elves living there.

Dont forget the Falas! All the Teleri that were not in Doriath at the coming of the host of the Noldor were in the walled havens of the Falas with Cirdan, that must be quite a few people even though they suffered losses in the first battles with Morgoth before the Noldor came. Remember they do reproduce!

It also depends largely on what stage you are talking about. After the Noldor had come and settled there was no Gondolin yet, the host of Turgon were still living in Vinyamar where they were never attacked and therefore suffered little losses.

I will leave the math to the other gentlemen, just remember these points.


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## Gil-Galad (Aug 3, 2002)

Thank you very much aragil.Your answer is really impresing !
Ceorl,Doriath was one of the closest places to Melkor's lands and it is obvious that many elves die in battles agaainst orcs etc...that decreased their population.
About Nargothrond .It is far far away from Melkor's lands and servants and for long time there weren't any enemies in these lands.It is known where it is ,Gondolin has been hidden.I believe that with years of peace around the lands of Nargothrond many elves settle down near the city,not in it but near it,something like subburbs probably.well I think in a more global way and I may have some mistakes in my thoughts.


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