# magic spells & orcs



## Confusticated (Apr 11, 2003)

In the Chapter _A Journey in the Dark_, while gathered at the Doors of Moria, Gandalf says: "I once knew every spell in all the tongues of Elves or Men or Orcs, that was ever used for such a purprose."

How can speaking certain specific words cause an object to react? I can't imagine that it is the sound of the words spoken, as objects can not hear. It must be more of a will power thing. I'd speculate that one could think the "magic words" (something like telepathy) with the will of these words being known to the object, and get the same effect one would get from speaking the words.

I think this has to be spiritual thing, because of that.

(Spirits can communicate without speaking, but so can incarnate beings.)

Do you think it is a spiritual thing?

If not, how are the Doors of Moria (for example) aware of the spell?

If it is a spiritual thing, and can be accomplished with thought and will then must orcs have spirits since they can use spells?


----------



## Courtney (Apr 11, 2003)

wow that is a great question! I am surprised with all the stuff about magic passwords and such (open sesame!) that I have never asked or have been asked that question before! 
Your idea about will power sounds perfectly natural.
About the orcs, I would assume that they do have souls since they are descendnts of the elves...


----------



## Elendil3119 (Apr 11, 2003)

> I can't imagine that it is the sound of the words spoken, as objects can not hear. It must be more of a will power thing. I'd speculate that one could think the "magic words" (something like telepathy) with the will of these words being known to the object, and get the same effect one would get from speaking the words.


How would the "will of these words" be known to the object? Would the maker somehow impart to them that knowledge? You say that it "must be more of a will power thing". If that was the case, would the "will power" somehow be imparted to anyone who learned the specific word?


----------



## Confusticated (Apr 11, 2003)

Thanks for you input and the compliment.



> About the orcs, I would assume that they do have souls since they are descendnts of the elves...


There is question about the origin of orcs (though you wouldn't know it to read The Silmarillion, even though it is stated there as the belief of elves and therefore, in my opinion, not even presented as a fact beyond a doubt), which is in great part why I ask this.




> How would the "will of these words" be known to the object? Would the maker somehow impart to them that knowledge? You say that it "must be more of a will power thing". If that was the case, would the "will power" somehow be imparted to anyone who learned the specific word?



I think that the use of will power (remember, all speculation) in place of speaking a spell aloud, as being a person mentally and spiritually telling the object the magic words.
I would imagine that the spirit of the speaker/sender of the spell would interect with the object through communicating with a bit of spirit that was put into the object by someone in the past.
That is why I think the object does not hear any sound, but rather gets a message. Since this would be a spiritual interaction, then orcs who are capable of it must have spirits.

According to my reasoning and speculation that is.


----------



## YayGollum (Apr 12, 2003)

Is taking magic at face value not a smart thing to do? Or is it just lazy?  I just thought that little magical things to say were just crazy little unexplainable things. Unless you take the magic at face value. ---> "I will say this magical word and this magical door will open!" The door opens. Nothing to wonder about. It was a magical door. Everything's explained. Anybody could have opened the door if they said the word. Even if they didn't know that it would open the door. Or so I thought. Is there something I should know that might make me wonder? Anyways, Yikes! Why wouldn't orcs have souls?


----------



## Lantarion (Apr 12, 2003)

> "I once knew every spell in all the tongues of Elves or Men or Orcs, that was ever used for such a purprose."


This made me wonder: why would any 'magic' spells be in any of the tongues of Elves, Men or Orcs? Supposedly Elves posessed some kind of 'powers', but I doubt that even they could perform the kind of magical feats that gadnalf seems to be referring to. I think only Ainur could use such physically interactive powers (eg. Girdle of Melian, Gandalf's work with fire); but why would any of the Ainur use such tongues? Surely they have alternate ways of communication than spoken language?
To interrupt the course of my own thoughts here: I think that Gandaf's use of actual words was a highly irregular use of his 'powers' and was only required in Middle-earth because the land was not hallowed; so perhaps to be able to interact with the physical objects of the world he had to manifest his magical thoughts through whatever language. because language, being spoken, is somewhat concrete, and certainly part of the world.
Now: Perhaps the Istari (and perhaps some other Maiar who even came to Middle-earth; there weren't many!) created such 'spels' because of the reason steted above: they had to produce something connected both to themselves and to the world around them: sound, or voice. But if they had created such spells, they would have needed a language. I assume they would have chosen Quenya or Sindarin, because of their use even in Aman. No other language(s) would be needed therefore, because it would only make things more muddled to have spells in several different languages.

This makes me conclude that the 'spells' in the languages of Elves, Men and Orcs were, indeed, of a spiritual and maybe symbolic nature; sort of like a prayer, but which was thought to produce more direct results. But I think they would have been nothing more.
Now maybe the Istari (at least Gandalf) revived these 'spells' or sayings of the old folk, but because of their hidden divinity they made them manifest; e.g. some simple spell used by Men to wish for warmth might be in such an arcane tongue used by some Men (other than Sindarin); Gandalf could have uttered this short sentence, and made it 'happen' and create warmth.

These are just random rants that came to me, I have absolutely no proof to back this up.


----------



## Elendil3119 (Apr 12, 2003)

My theory is that the magic was completely contained in the object itself. Take, for example the Doors of Moria. *Anyone* who spoke the magic password could open the door. That alone is enough to discredit the theory that it was a spiritual matter. The ability to recognize a specific word was contained in the object itself, and was worked into its making....somehow. 



> 'What does it mean by speak, friend, and enter?' asked Merry. 'That is plain enough,' said Gimli. *'If you are a friend, speak the password, and the doors will open, and you can enter.'* 'Yes,' said Gandalf, *'these doors are probably governed by words.* Some dwarf-gates will open only at special times, or for particular persons; and some have locks and keys that are still needed when all necessary times and words are known. These doors have no key. In the days of Durin they were not secret. They usually stood open and doorwards sat here. *But if they were shut, anyone who knew the opening word could speak it and pass in.* At least so it is recorded, is it not, Gimli? '


And also:


> 'It is,' said the dwarf. `But what the word was is not remembered. Narvi and his craft and all his kindred have vanished from the earth.'


----------



## Lantarion (Apr 12, 2003)

But then, for example, could the 'spell' that would make a certain rock crack in half might be accidentally uttered by someone passing it by?
And the Doors of Durin were very particular and special; I don't remember any other artifact or object in Middle-earth that required some sort of spell to operate it. The Palantíri? Nope. The staffs of Gandalf and Saruman? No actual proof, but as it isn't stated that it was I'd say: no. 
Maybe the little 'power' that was contained in the Elves was concentrated in the Doors, and in co-operation with the mechanics of the Naugrim it must have triggered something to open the doors.

And about the 'spiritual/symbolic' matter: I offered that those types of 'spells' did not have any actual effect, not that all spells in Middle-earth were symbolic.


----------



## Confusticated (Apr 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Elendil3119 _
> *My theory is that the magic was completely contained in the object itself. Take, for example the Doors of Moria. Anyone who spoke the magic password could open the door. That alone is enough to discredit the theory that it was a spiritual matter. The ability to recognize a specific word was contained in the object itself, and was worked into its making....somehow.
> *


So, you think the doors could not only sense sound, but recognise specific words?

I also think anything that would seem like magic to us was in the Doors. 

But even assuming any/everyone could open the door if they spoke the word with the intention of opening the door, I do not see how that discredit's my idea that it is a spiritual thing.

When a person speaks with intention to open the door it will automaticly be a spiritual thing, the will power required to open the door without speaking will have happened naturally in the process of speaking with intention to open the door.

I am not making this up about incarnates having the ability to communicate with others using thought. It is a spirit way of talking and the body only hinders it. To send someone a message through this kind of telepathy you have to be willing to do so. Living in bodies we end up using speech instead of this, and so we don't use it often, bodies are a barrier to this and are at a lot of times closed to it.


So, we know spirits can communicate.

We know makers can put part of her/himself into their art.

We know Doors can not hear. Or can they? 

A person speaking the word would be naturally using will, like that used if one used will alone without speech.

Where is the part where my idea is discredited since speaking the word opens the door?


----------



## YayGollum (Apr 12, 2003)

Yikes! Yay for people answering my questions!   

Anyways, what's all of this craziness I am detecting having to do with Maiar type things and elves being the only people with all the magic. It seemed to me to be that the Dwarves from The Hobbit were pretty familiar with all kinds of spells. Like when they're trying to open that secret door at the Lonely Mountain. I don't think that they'd be so stupid that they'd use little magical words when they know that only Maiar type things and elves can use them. They also must have known that the door was made by Dwarves. If only Maiar type things and elves could work the little magical type stuffs on inanimate objects, then why would they even try it on that door? oh well. That was a rant. 

What was wrong with my idea about the doors just being inexplicably magical? It was too lazy? 

Also, I'd still like to know why the thing about orc souls was even brought up. I'd like to know more about it.


----------



## Eriol (Apr 13, 2003)

Well, magic in M-E is strongly associated with sounds, and more specifically with _song_ -- see Beren & Lúthien. Does her hair listen to her song? See also the song-fight of Finrod and Sauron, and how Lúthien destroyed Minas Tirith (the first) with song. 

So, I see no real objection to the suggestion that physical objects -- and the Doors -- can actually hear. If they open without any outer force, why can't they listen without hearing organs? But without hearing organs there appears then the question of range. If someone a little farther away had uttered the word, would it open? Someone in Hollin? Rivendell??

Therefore I think the intention must be present. But I don't think it is a purely spiritual thing, I think it is included in the tone of the incantation. In the movie (hehe) the voice of Gandalf assumes a quite different tone when uttering the spells. Perhaps an "authoritative tone" is necessary. (Of course, just when he says "mellon", his tone is full of doubt, so the movie at least goes against it. But if I remember correctly, in the BOOK he speaks quite clearly). The "authoritative tone" is quite clear from the example at hand, since "mellon" is a very common word, and I doubt that the dwarves designed the Doors to open when two guys were chatting outside -- though they could have: it is clear that anyone who knew how to read the Elvish inscriptions, after revealing them, was supposed to be welcome. so two guyys chatting in Elvish were supposed to be welcome, I guess -- not many minions of Sauron chat in Elvish . 

To summarize my opinion, in an example that addresses the spiritual question: If a tape recorder of Gandalf's voice uttering "mellon" were used, the Doors would open. They would open with a tape recording of any voice in an authoritative tone.


----------



## Confusticated (Apr 13, 2003)

> Well, magic in M-E is strongly associated with sounds, and more specifically with song -- see Beren & Lúthien. Does her hair listen to her song? See also the song-fight of Finrod and Sauron, and how Lúthien destroyed Minas Tirith (the first) with song.
> 
> So, I see no real objection to the suggestion that physical objects -- and the Doors -- can actually hear.


That is where you loose me, when you take that leap.

There are two big differences between these things.

1) Gandalf didn't have to sing the spell, just spoke it

2) We know that people can hear and recognize words



> If they open without any outer force, why can't they listen without hearing organs?



I don't see what one has to do with the one.

If spirits can move without a body, or within one, then why couldn't the spirit of the doors make them move?

Spirits do not communicate with speech, though if you spoke to one it should know what you said. Not because it heard the sound, but because it got your message.


----------



## Eriol (Apr 13, 2003)

Sure, postulating a spirit inside the doors is a way out, but it leads to all sort of complications. It could not have been "implanted" there by the Dwarves, since they can't mess with spirits. Legolas says quite clearly that he hears the stones moaning about how the Noldor carved them in Hollin, so I guess everything -- including stones -- has a "spirit" that is capable of speaking and hearing. 

In fact, the quote of Legolas solves it, as I see it. (I just realized that). If ordinary stones can moan and Legolas can hear it, why can't the stones hear? I mean, they don't have speech organs, and yet they speak. No need for them to have hearing organs. Their "spirit" is able to communicate in some unknown manner that, to Legolas, appears as moaning.

So the "spirit" of the doors was instructed by Narvi to open when he heard someone speaking the right word with the intention of opening it. But to say that it would be able to read the mind of, say, a mute man who wanted to get in is something else. He would have to use the tape recorder, in my opinion.

(as for (2), the _stones_ of Minas Tirith crumpled when Lúthien sang. It seems they heard her singing)


----------



## Confusticated (May 20, 2008)

Perhaps more views.

And it may be that Legolas didn't "hear" the stones just because of superior hearing, maybe as an elf he was spiritually able to get the message?

Could be an elf singing against evil... for instance Finrod vs. Sauron, is engaging in a war of the fëar, versus a bodily battle where swords cut flesh.


----------



## Gothmog (May 20, 2008)

Ok. Some thoughts on this question.

It seems to me that in Arda, there are two types of “magic spells”. One type that can only be used by those who have “magic” power in themselves and the other 'open' to use by anyone who has the required knowledge.

In both of these types there are two common things that are needed, the intention and the 'Word of Command'. Without one or the other, it will not work. The use of a 'Word of Command' or a 'Song of Power' is shown throughout the whole legendarium. Indeed, at the very beginning of Arda after the Music of the Ainur we see that the creation of Arda comes about through the use of Intent and Word. Eru himself says:



> Therefore I say: Eä! Let these things Be! And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be; and those of you that will may go down into it.'



In the contest between Sauron and Finrod we find a battle of 'Songs of Power' where words and intent or will are both necessary for the power to be used. The Doors of Moria are not the last example of such things. As the fellowship leaves the Chamber of Mazarbul Gandalf explains about the door they left by:



> 'I do not know,' answered Gandalf. `But I found myself suddenly faced by something that I have not met before. I could think of nothing to do but to try and put a shutting-spell on the door. I know many; but to do things of that kind rightly requires time, and even then the door can be broken by strength.


Which of course does not show how the spell was 'cast' however he then goes on to say:



> 'What it was I cannot guess, but I have never felt such a challenge. The counter-spell was terrible. It nearly broke me. For an instant the door left my control and began to open! I had to speak a word of Command.


Which to me indicates that however the spell was constructed and placed, activation of the spell requires the use of both intent and word.


I doubt that the doors heard the sound or felt the intent. It would be the 'spell' cast upon the doors that would be activated by the use of the Word of Command with the intent to use the spell. Also I think it is probable that both the word and the will must come from the same source so that you could not have one person speak the word and a different person supplying the intent, so I doubt that the use of a 'tape recorder' would work.

I will give some more thought to Legolas' 'Moaning Rocks'.


----------



## YayGollum (May 20, 2008)

It's possible that Legolas could have meant something more along the lines of, "I got the sense that the rocks were moaning. Id est, you non-elfs, I've got a bad feeling about this. It feels as if this whole place (not just the stones) is messed up." Maybe. Of course, it makes sense to me for everything to have a bit of spiritualness to it, since everything came from the spirit energy of all of the Ainur at the beginning of time. 

Anyways, I don't see why all of this can't merely be explained by: knowledge of spells in all kinds of languages makes sense. It wouldn't merely be a willpower thing and whatever word of command that you decide to use, if someone else hadn't already imbued something with their own specific type of magic. From what I can tell, anybody can use magic. Check out the purses of the trolls from that The Hobbit book. For the doors that we're writing about, why couldn't the Dwarves have magically programmed them to sense intent to open combined with the answer to the riddle? The doors don't have to have a spirit or ears or anything. There is a bit of Dwarvish spirit energy inside of them, specifically geared toward keeping closed until the password is given. Spirit energy is transferred all of the time. Check out Feanor's silmarils, those two supposedly important and always capitalized Trees, the swannish boats of the Teleri, Morgoth and Sauron's Rings, Eol's weapons, various curses, probably other things.


----------



## Prince of Cats (May 21, 2008)

Gandalf also severed the stone bridge at the battle of the Balrog with his magic and staff


----------

