# The Watcher in the Water



## Ecthelion (Feb 20, 2003)

I have pondered about The Watcher every since I read that part of LOTR and was wondering if anyone could help me out on some questions about The Watcher:

1. How did it get Sirannon?

2. Where did it come from?

3. How was it made/ Who made it?

4. Are there more than one?


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## Eol (Feb 20, 2003)

Here is what is said in LotR about the watcher:



> 'I felt that something horrible was near from the moment that my foot first touched the water,' said Frodo. 'What was that thing, or were there many of them?'
> 'I do not know,' answered Gandalf; 'but the arms were all guided by one purpose. Something has crept, or has been driven out of the dark waters under the mountains...'



In a later quote:



> The last lines run _the pool is up to the wall at Westgate. The Watcher in the Water took Oin. We cannot get out. The end comes..._



I think this shows that the Watcher was involved in the "siege" of Moria. Somehow the water level was raised enough for the Watcher to take any dwarf who strayed near enough to the pools. The water levels may have sunk after the siege was done, forcing the Watcher into the Sirannon.

On where he came from I looked at "The Council Of Elrond":


> 'Not safe forever,' said Gandalf. *'There are many things in the deep waters;* and seas and lands may change.



My guess is that one (probably more) of these Watchers were created by Melkor to counteract Ulmo in the First Age. But, that is just a guess.


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## Mrs. Maggott (Feb 21, 2003)

It might have been considered nothing more than an unfortunate animal driven from its home in the deeps by the orcs to the pool created by the damming of the Gate Stream except for the fact that it grabbed the Bearer first and _not_ because he was closest. Tolkien specifically mentions that it singled Frodo out in its attack. This presupposes some sort of malignant energy in the creature which rather precludes it being nothing more than, say a giant squid or some other life form merely acting on primitive instinct. 

As well, it's destruction of the gate is not something that an ordinary life form would do. Having missed its "meal", it would probably depart or at most, thrash about in frustration. Pulling the doors closed and piling debris in front of them to prevent the Fellowship from attempting escape at some future time when the creature was not present to prevent them (or was otherwise occupied), also indicates a certain malignant intelligence. It was certainly _not_ the act of an ordinary animal, even a dangerous one.


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## Grond (Feb 22, 2003)

> _from The Two Towers, The White Rider_
> ...'We fought far under the living earth, where time is not counted. Ever he clutched me, and ever I hewed him, till at last he fled into dark tunnels. They were not made by Durin's folk, Gimli son of Gluin. Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by _nameless things_. *Even Sauron knows them not*. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to darken the light of day. In that despair my enemy was my only hope, and I pursued him, clutching at his heel. Thus he brought me back at last to the secret ways of Khazad-dym: too well he knew them all. Ever up now we went, until we came to the Endless Stair.'


This quote by Gandalf leads me to believe that there are many "nameless things" that dwell or hide in the bowels of the Earth that are not subservient to Sauron but are evil, none the less. And, specifically, these things are named as being older than Sauron/Gorthaur. That reeks of a fallen Ainu to me. One of those who came to Middle-earth (heeding Melkor's call in ages past) who was of Ainu stock and who would then have become a Maia, much like Ungoliant and the Balrog. This assumption is made because any being who came from the void is (by Silmarillion definition) either a Vala or a Maia. We know well who are of the Valar and that leaves only the Maia to account for any other "heavenly" beings. (This is only my personal opinion.)

Another option is a different type of creature that Melkor perverted/corrupted in the same way he bred dragons/werewolves/vampires, etc. Melkor could never create any living being so creating the species was out but he could have corrupted an existing sea species in the same way. 

Just my two cents.


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## Mrs. Maggott (Feb 23, 2003)

Certainly it is a perverted and evil creature rather than being simply a dangerous one (shark, crocodile etc.), but I don't think it is anything like a fallen Maia. It just doesn't have the "feel" of one. Frodo was vaguely "afraid" of something in the lake, but none of the others in the Company were touched by that fear. 

A being of the metaphysical strength of a Balrod, even lying hidden in the pool, would certainly have alerted Gandalf and possibly Legolas as well. On the other hand, an evil creature such as a troll does not produce that sort of "precognition" before its appearance since it's power is much more limited.


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## Grond (Feb 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mrs. Maggott _
> *Certainly it is a perverted and evil creature rather than being simply a dangerous one (shark, crocodile etc.), but I don't think it is anything like a fallen Maia. It just doesn't have the "feel" of one. Frodo was vaguely "afraid" of something in the lake, but none of the others in the Company were touched by that fear.
> 
> A being of the metaphysical strength of a Balrod, even lying hidden in the pool, would certainly have alerted Gandalf and possibly Legolas as well. On the other hand, an evil creature such as a troll does not produce that sort of "precognition" before its appearance since it's power is much more limited. *


 I didn't notice anyone with "precognitive" intuition that there was an evil in Moria. Even when Gandalf employed his shutting spell at the door to the Chamber of Mazarbul, he had no idea what he was facing... just something that was totally different that anything he had been cofronted by in the past.


> _from The Fellowship of the Ring, The Bridge of Khazad-dum_
> `Well, well! That's over! ' said the wizard struggling to his feet. `I
> have done all that I could. But I have met my match, and have nearly been destroyed. But don't stand here! Go on! You will have to do without light for a while: I am rather shaken. Go on! Go on! Where are you, Gimli? Come ahead with me! Keep close behind, all of you!'





> _same book and chapter_
> Gimli took his arm and helped him down to a seat on the step. `What happened away up there at the door? ' he asked. `Did you meet the beater of the drums? '
> 
> 'I do not know,' answered Gandalf. `But I found myself suddenly faced by something that I have not met before. I could think of nothing to do but to try and put a shutting-spell on the door. I know many; but to do things of that kind rightly requires time, and even then the door can be broken by strength.
> ...


While I won't argue with you that your opinion is invalid... I don't think your particular analogy holds water to disprove my opinion.


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 23, 2003)

Here's an interesting thread on this subject:

Who controls the Watcher in the Water?



> *by Grond*
> This quote by Gandalf leads me to believe that there are many "nameless things" that dwell or hide in the bowels of the Earth that are not subservient to Sauron but are evil, none the less. And, specifically, these things are named as being older than Sauron/Gorthaur. That reeks of a fallen Ainu to me. One of those who came to Middle-earth (heeding Melkor's call in ages past) who was of Ainu stock and who would then have become a Maia, much like Ungoliant and the Balrog. This assumption is made because any being who came from the void is (by Silmarillion definition) either a Vala or a Maia. We know well who are of the Valar and that leaves only the Maia to account for any other "heavenly" beings. (This is only my personal opinion.)



How can anyone be older than Sauron or any of the Ainu? Or do you mean in "Middle-Earth reckoning" - having descended into Arda at an earlier time than Sauron?



> *by Grond*
> Another option is a different type of creature that Melkor perverted/corrupted in the same way he bred dragons/werewolves/vampires, etc. Melkor could never create any living being so creating the species was out but he could have corrupted an existing sea species in the same way.



I prefer this option much better. I like Celebrien's thought on this:



> *By Celebrien*
> My guess is that one (probably more) of these Watchers were created by Melkor to counteract Ulmo in the First Age. But, that is just a guess.



This does seem like something Melkor would have done; a desperate attempt to corrupt the element over which he had little or no control - water.

I believe the Watcher is a malicious being (but not sentient), serving only itself. The fact that it grabbed Frodo first must mean that it was answering some call of the Ring, for doesn't the Ring call evil to itself, and those who can be easily corrupted (Men)?


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## Grond (Feb 23, 2003)

My only problem with Celbrien's position is the use of the word "created" as we know that Melkor could never create living thing... only corrupt those that existed. That is why I threw in the distinct possibility that is was a creature bred by Melkor.


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## krash8765 (Feb 23, 2003)

I think the theory that the Watcher was created in Utumno and somehow made his way down to the gate of Moria would be the most plausible


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## gate7ole (Feb 23, 2003)

> posted by Grond
> This assumption is made because any being who came from the void is (by Silmarillion definition) either a Vala or a Maia.


In the Silmarillion there is no such explicit definition. One can assume it, but this is not certain. In fact, we have the “famous” controversial and early quote:


> HOME I:
> These are the Nermir and the Tavari, Nandini and Orossi, brownies, fays, pixies, leprawns, and what else are they not called, for their number is very great: yet must they not be confused with the Eldar, for they were born befoxe the world and are older than its oldest, and are not of it, but laugh at it much, for had they not somewhat to do with its making, so that it is for the most part a play for them.



Anyway, to the point of the post:
Why should the Watcher be considered a sentient being? I always had the impression that it was just a stupid evil beast, attracted by the malice of the Ring. I’m sure that Morgoth played some role in its creation, and since I accept it as non-sentient, Morgoth could have created it (or better twisted an existing animal).


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## Grond (Feb 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by gate7ole _
> *In the Silmarillion there is no such explicit definition. One can assume it, but this is not certain. In fact, we have the “famous” controversial and early quote:
> 
> 
> ...


 Be so kind as to point out any being (sentient or non-sentient) that Melkor is attributed to have created. 

Your HoMe 1 reference is off-base as well as the early writings of The Book of Lost Tales were definately superceded by the author's later writings. We can take nothing as canon but surely you're not suggesting that we go back now and ACCEPT that Gothmog is Melkor's son and Eonwe is the son of Manwe and Varda?(Both are stated as fact in the Book of Lost Tales.)


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## Grond (Feb 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by gate7ole _
> *In the Silmarillion there is no such explicit definition. One can assume it, but this is not certain. In fact, we have the “famous” controversial and early quote:*


The author is very clear on this issue to me. I have the author's own words on it. The only assumption one need make is that the same rules that would apply to the Valar would apply to all of the Ainur descending upon Arda.


> _from The Silmarillion, Ainulindale_
> But this condition Ilúvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs. And therefore they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.





> _from The Silmarillion, The Valaquenta_
> Then those of the Ainur who desired it arose and entered into the world at the beginning of Time; and it was their task to achieve it, and by their labours to fulfil the vision which they had seen. Long they laboured in the regions of Eä, which are vast beyond the thought of Elves and Men, until in the time appointed was made Arda, the Kingdom of Earth. Then they put on the raiment of Earth and descended into it, and dwelt therein.


There is also this letter which also seems to indicate that all Ainur who entered the realm of Ea were bound by the confines of the "created cosmology" and that their "powers" were also trapped within the same Earthly Cosmology.


> _from The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, continuation of a draft letter to Ms. Rhona Beare, 14 October 1958_
> When the One (the Teller) said Let it Be, then the Tale became History, on the same plane as the hearers; and these could, if they desired, enter into it. Many of the Ainur did enter into it, and must bide in it till the End, being involved in Time, the series of events that complete it. These were the Valar, and their lesser attendants. They were those who had 'fallen in love' with the vision, and no doubt, were those who had played the most 'sub-creative' (or as we might say 'artistic') part in the Music.
> 
> It was because of their love of Eä, and because of the pan they had played in its making, that they wished to, and could, incarnate themselves in visible physical forms, though these were comparable to our clothes (in so far as our clothes are a personal expression) not to our bodies. Their forms were thus expressions of their persons, powers, and loves...


One can hardly imagine that any Ainu could descend on Arda and *not* be bound within the limitations imposed by Eru. Were an Ainu allowed to enter Ea with limitless power, he could/would easily usurp the power of Manwe, Melkor and all the other Valar and Mair because his power would be limitless within the sphere of the world. For that very reason, it seems the only logical explanation that any and all Ainur who heard the call (be it Manwe's call or Melkor's call) were "trapped" within the confines/cosmology as dictated by Eru for the Valar. I wouldn't call it an assumption, merely the only "logical" conclusion the I'm able to make. (If you have some better theories I would love to hear them.)


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## gate7ole (Feb 23, 2003)

The HOME I references can be considered directions to what Tolkien had in mind. And I’m sure that you know HOME enough so that to remember that especially the cosmogony went thought only light changes (actually the Music of the Ainur part had only a couple of differences form the published). As far as I remember, only the concept of the children of Ainur was rejected (along with a few misplaced Valar). So, I accept the quote that I provided as relatively close to what Tolkien had in mind, so that to understand its “meaning” and not to take it literally. And the meaning is that not only the Ainur entered Arda. There were other spirits too.



> Be so kind as to point out any being (sentient or non-sentient) that Melkor is attributed to have created.


As you can see in my post, I quickly corrected myself, changing the verb from “created” to “twisted” (even in a parenthesis). But the core of my argument remained intact. The Watcher was not sentient, but just a beast twisted by Morgoth.

About the second post, I agree with the limitations of the Ainur and/or every spirit that entered the world. 
I think we're confused with terminology here. However someone is called (Ainu or I don't know how else), they were from outside Arda and time.
I just believe that there should be some spirits that were not assigned to do the job of the Ainur, thus belonging to a different category. (maybe Tom Bombadil ?)


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 23, 2003)

> *by Grond*
> Were an Ainu allowed to enter Ea with limitless power, he could/would easily usurp the power of Manwe, Melkor and all the other Valar and Mair because his power would be limitless within the sphere of the world.



I'm afraid I don't quite grasp the concept of this limitation. What limitations (power-wise) are imposed upon an Ainu when he/she enters Arda, other than the fact that it becomes bound to its fate and must endure therein till the very end? I expect Manwë and Melkor were one of the greatest, if not THE greatest Ainur who entered Arda. Who could then enter Arda and usurp Manwë, if the greatest were in Arda already?

From _the Ainulindalë_:



> Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Ilúvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them *many of the greatest and most fair*, took the leave of Ilúvatar and *descended into it*. But this condition Ilúvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs. And therefore they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.



I don't see any other kinds of limitations in this passage. What is limitless power? Does Manwë for example not have the same amount of power in Eru's Halls? Melkor was said to be the greatest, so obviously there is some sort of power scale in the Timeless Halls as well. If there was none, then all would have the same amount of this "limitless" power.

I look forward to your response, and I'm sorry if I rambled.


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## Grond (Feb 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *I'm afraid I don't quite grasp the concept of this limitation. What limitations (power-wise) are imposed upon an Ainu when he/she enters Arda, other than the fact that it becomes bound to its fate and must endure therein till the very end? I expect Manwë and Melkor were one of the greatest, if not THE greatest Ainur who entered Arda. Who could then enter Arda and usurp Manwë, if the greatest were in Arda already?
> 
> I don't see any other kinds of limitations in this passage. What is limitless power? Does Manwë for example not have the same amount of power in Eru's Halls? Melkor was said to be the greatest, so obviously there is some sort of power scale in the Timeless Halls as well. If there was none, then all would have the same amount of this "limitless" power.
> ...


It is written in the Silmarillion that each of the Ainur who descended into Arda and their power was *contained and bounded in the World.* Here's the exact quote...


> _from The Silmarillion, Ainulindale_
> Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Ilúvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Ilúvatar and descended into it. But this condition Ilúvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, *that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs.* And therefore they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.


What this means is that the Valar brought their powers with them and they are finite. They are not limitless. It is why Yavanna could only make the trees once. It is why Melkor was the greatest but used so much of his power in corrupting the Earth that he was weakened and, in the end, easily defeated. 

This topic is very well discussed and brought out both in the Silmarillion and the HoMe. I will look for additional information to further my veiwpoint and present it tomorrow.


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 23, 2003)

I do not think this means that their power was limited in the meaning "lessened" when they entered Arda. An Ainu would have the same amount of power in the Timeless Halls and in Arda. If an Ainu decided to enter Arda, they could only use that power within the world of Arda, not anywhere else. That is how I understand the "contained and bounded" part anyway.


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## Grond (Feb 23, 2003)

I think my message is being lost in my rhetoric. The Ainu who descended into Arda had powers that became finite when they entered Ea. It was bounded and contained and could be depleted. This is the reason that of all the Valar, Melkor began as the strongest and ended as the weakest. He had "used" so much of his inherent power in the corruption of the world that he was "weakened". Yavanna had used so much of her inherent power that she could only create the wonder of the Two Trees once. Varda had used so much of her inherent power in creating the heavens and stars (with Yavanna's help) that they could never be created again. 

My point isn't that the Valar were weakened when the entered Ea... they were weakened by being confined to the world and no longer having any way to replenish themselves due to their being bounded and contained to Ea. It is a circular reasoning but one that is fully supported by the texts.


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## Celebithil (Mar 10, 2003)

I agree mostly with Grond but when you say that the Valar I have a problem believing that they have finite amount of power. I don't see Mawe,Ulmo or Aule ever running out of power to the point where they become useless or as weak (relatively)as a Maiar but I agree with the overall spirit of your post.


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