# The Mysteries of the Legendarium



## Erestor Arcamen (Jun 13, 2011)

So I don't know if there is a thread on this at all or not but I thought maybe we could just list as many of the mysteries of Tolkien's Legendarium as possible. This just gives us a thread to reference when looking for new things to read into in the Legendarium. I know a almost all of these have their own threads here but it just kind of gives us a list to search the forums from. Heck, if you want, we can even make this a sort of index and under each topic, put links to threads and/or external websites that have info and/or essays about this stuff. I'll start:

*Mysteries*:
King Bladorthin
Tom Bombadil/Goldberry
Fate of the Entwives
Balrogs: Wings or No Wings?
What were the Stone Giants?
Durin's Bane (Balrog of Moria): Would Sauron have used it to his advantage? Could Sauron have controlled it?
Radagast: What happened to him?
Nimrodel: What happened to her?
Flying Creatures' origins
Great Spiders/Ungoliant's origins
What were the Nameless Things that Gandalf referred to in the deeps of Arda?
Where does the Stony Door that Baldor, son of Brego was clawing at on the Paths of the Dead lead to?

*Prince of Cats*:
2 Glorfindels? (this one seems to be answered, according Galin here)
Blue Wizards: Fates/deeds?
Watcher in the Water - Who did it serve, what was it?
Carcharoth/Huan: Maia or something else?

*Starbrow*:
The Great Eagles: Maia? Why could they talk and why were they so large?

Add more and I'll add to this post!


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## Prince of Cats (Jun 14, 2011)

Does Huan count? And Carcharoth? 

2 Glorfindels?

Watcher in the water?

As far as Carcharoth (and the Watcher): what about the spirit business? Maia, or ... ?

Regardless, we can't forget our Blue Wizards


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## Elthir (Jun 14, 2011)

Prince of Cats said:


> 2 Glorfindels?


 
Must... resist... :*D


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## Elthir (Jun 17, 2011)

OK since 'two Glorfindels?' has now been added then I'll stop resisting :*p 

This was a bit of a mystery from 1977 to the late 1980s.

But still, some confusion held out until the 1990s (despite Christopher Tolkien clearing it up in the late 1980s), because Tolkien's _actual_ essays on Glorfindel were not published untill the 1990s -- in 1996 by Houghton Mifflin in the United States. In other words, Christopher Tolkien first noted the existence of these essays and reported his father's conclusion, but the actual texts were published later in the 1990s.


Today it is clear: one Glorfindel (newly incarnated after death and returned to Middle-earth) -- Tolkien's own conclusion according to both late essays, published at last, but actually some time ago now.



There might be questions _related_ to this matter, but there is a clear answer to how many Glorfindels there are.


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## Prince of Cats (Jun 20, 2011)

Good catch, Galin :*D:*up

To clarify some other suggestions of mine:

I believe we know Huan is a Maia. That question was in reference to the part where Morgoth raises Carcharoth and it says that "he became filled with a devouring _spirit_." There was a discussion within the past few years where it was argued this is describing a Maiar taking possession of the wolf. While writing now I checked wikipedia and there it claims that this is true for werewolves (if not an orc fea) but they don't use any references. Maybe this is true and I simply haven't read the right passages.

The Huan puzzle to me is the prophecy more than anything else. It seems a bit exotic to the rest of the legendarium. Were there any other prophecies for Maia to die? We do know that Faramir & family had their prophetic dreams about the halfling but this is something different; it's something everyone - or at least Morgoth and Huan - seemed to know

Akin to the first topic is the Huorns - what are they; do _they_ have sentient "_spirits_?" I don't know of them making an appearance outside of the battle of Isengard and all we get there I think is a guess from one of the hobbits.


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## Jon Lannister (Jun 29, 2011)

I think the Dragons and Ungoliant/Shelob/Mirkwood Spiders are another mistery. We know that there are Men, Elves, Dwarves, Orcs, Maiar, Valar, etc etc etc. But the Dragons and the Spiders seem to be very powerful but we never get to know what exactly they are. We know Orcs and Dwarves were created by Melkor and Aule, who were Valar of great power. We know the Balrogs and Sauron were powerful Maiar corrupted by Melkor. But I don't think Melkor had enough power to create Dragons, and we know he didn't create Ungoliant.


Winged Creatures are another example. We don't know where they came from, there's no reference to them untill they appeared in the War of the Ring. The Nazgûl could not create such creatures, and Sauron could only have made them bigger, as it is said in The Lord of The Rings. So, what were they?


Personally, there's a doubt that has been persuing me long ago. We hear of elves and men killing Balrogs and some of them defying even Melkor. How is that possible? Melkor is the greatest of the Valar, the most powerful. Elves are fair and very powerful too, but how could they defy the Dark Lord?


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## Erestor Arcamen (Jun 29, 2011)

I think when it comes to the flying creatures, it's the same as the Oliphaunts. Sauron had dealings in the east and Eru knows what dwells out there in Rhun and beyond. I've always been interested in whats out past Mordor but unfortunately not a whole lot is written on the subject.


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## Starbrow (Jul 5, 2011)

What about the Great Eagles? How come they were so large and how come they could talk? Are they also Maia?


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## Erestor Arcamen (May 10, 2014)

I added yours Starbrow and added a few of my own as well.


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## Silevon (Apr 16, 2015)

I'll answer a few of the less prominent questions, these are only my opinions of course.

King Bladorthin: I say that he is not a mystery, he was probably just a man ruling a small kingdom that did not play a part in the wider world, and as a result was never mentioned anywhere else, or maybe he ruled in the east beyond the Iron Mountains. The Dwarves may have known of him, but he could have been unknown to the other peoples of Middle-Earth.

Fate of the Entwives: Perhaps the Entwives simply died off, or like some Ents, became like the plants they were shepherds of (grain?). Maybe they were destroyed by Sauron or some other evil force, they do not seem to be known by the men of Gondor, this could mean that they have been missing since before the Faithful landed in Middle-Earth, or that these tales were lost. One fact is clear, they are gone.

What were the Stone Giants? I believe that for one, Tolkien meant to retcon them out, as they have no place in any tale besides the Hobbit, and as the Hobbit did not originally link up with his larger universe, there are some things left unexplained (King Baldorthin). The giants may be maiar, like the Balrogs. Perhaps they are Aulë's euivalent to the eagles of Manwë?

Durin's Bane (Balrog of Moria): Would Sauron have used it to his advantage? Could Sauron have controlled it: I believe Sauron could, the Silmarillion makes it fairly clear that Sauron was the greatest of Morgoth's servants, it was he who ruled in Morgoth's stead while he was imprisoned by the Valar. Now, i believe that it is quite possible that Sauron was using the Balrog, he probably knew of its existence from the many orcs who lived there, and I propose that the Balrog was one of Sauron's greatest hidden servants. Perhaps once Sauron became aware of its existence, he recruited it to his service, ordering it to keep anyone from reclaiming Moria, and using the strategically important Mithril found there, perhaps the Balrog was overseeing a vast mining operation in the lower levels of Moria, gathering Mithril and sending it secretly to Mordor or Dol Guldur, or keeping it and building Mithril weapons and armour for the orcs of moria, to be revealed when they receive orders from Sauron. Sauron could have been saving this army for his final push against the remaining Elves, as he believed he could destroy the peoples of Gondor and Rohan without the Balrog. This of course was not to be.

Radagast: What happened to him?: "_Indeed, of all the Istari, one only remained faithful [Gandalf], and he was the last-comer. For Radagast, the fourth, became enamoured of the many beasts and birds that dwelt in Middle-earth, and forsook Elves and Men, and spent his days among wild creatures." _This quote obviously says that Radagast failed, however later on in Tolkien's life his views on Radagast became less harsh, and it becomes harder to say what happened to him, but I like the idea that he forsook Elves and Men for Bird and Beast, and as a result sadly failed.

Nimrodel: What happened to her? I have no clue, there is absolutely nothing to grasp at here, she doesn't seem to be spoken of as though she still remains in Middle-Earth, so whatever befell her I assume by the time of the Third Age she had passed on to The Blessed Realm.

Flying Creatures' origins: I assume you are referring to what are commonly called the "Fell Beasts". These are probably some of the unnamed beasts bred by Morgoth during the first era, they may have fled to Mordor, or were gathered by Sauron when Angband fell, and Beleriand destroyed.

What were the Nameless Things that Gandalf referred to in the deeps of Arda? There are really no possibilities that we know of, but I love the idea of them, these unknown ancient beings that gnaw endlessly at the earth, with, perhaps, no knowledge of the doings above, and with the people above having no knowledge of the doings below, they just give off an eerie Lovecraftian feel.

2 Glorfindels? (this one seems to be answered, according Galin here): I'm pretty sure that it was the same Glorfindel who died during the Fall of Gondolin that appeared in the Third Age. He was rewarded for his good deeds during life and left the halls of Mandos extremely early, he was then sent to Middle-Earth as a sort of precursor to the Istari.

Watcher in the Water - Who did it serve, what was it: The way I see it there are two options. One, a creation by Morgoth, perhaps it serves Sauron an serves to guard the Western Door for his Mining Operation in Moria? Or perhaps it serves no one. Two, it is one of the Nameless Things that has slithered up from the deep and made a home in the lake, serving none and waiting for food to wander near... I like this one because of how much I like the Nameless Things.


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## Silevon (Aug 11, 2015)

I might have found a sufficient explanation for the nameless things. 
"_Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to darken the light of day._"
― Gandalf

_Even Sauron knows them not: _Sauron did not join Morgoth right away, he only joined him after coming to Arda, he was initially a Maiar of Aulë before joining Morgoth. It is possible that Morgoth created the Nameless Things before Sauron joined him, this explains half of their mystery.

_They are older than he: _This ties in again to the fact that Sauron was not a servant of Morgoth immediately. It is possible that Gandalf could have been referring not to the Maiar Mairon, but Sauron. The name, the character, this new entity that only came into being after Mairon was corrupted by Morgoth. Just as Melkor and Morgoth are used for two separate ideas that the Vala encompassed.


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## Ingolmin (Nov 15, 2016)

1)Bladorthin was a King of Men in the Northeast sometime during the late Third Age. His realm was probably close in proximity to Lonely Mountain. Therefore Bladorthin probably ruled either Lake-town, Dale, maybe Rhûn, or Dorwinion. He may be akin to the Bardings and the men of Dale. 

2) Tom Bombadil was possibly one of the angelic beings (maybe a Maiar), he was of a stature similar to that of the Istari or greater than that. The second clause is obvious because Gandalf only mentioned in LOtr that he was a stone doomed to rule while Bombadil was different, we can also see his powers. He would absolutely be not an elf,man or dwarf because he was the first to come to Ea. He may even be of the Valar or an incarnation of Illuvitar himself.
I am sure by 90% that Goldberry is a Maiar because it is known that she was the daughter of the river and an elf, man or dwarf cannot be that.

3) Fate of the entwives is still unknown because Tolkien did not throw light upon this matter. But there is a possibility that there are Ents(male or female) or creatures akin to them like the Old Willow and one seen by Hal, a cousin of Samwise Gamgee. Also, the trees were shifting when Frodo and co. were going through the old forest so maybe these Entlike creatures might have become treeish as Fangorn said most of the Ents are becoming in the latter days.

4) As I have read the scriptures of Tolkien, I have never found any Balrog with wings. But there is a possibility they can have wings as they are of the Maiar and can surely take any shape as they wish but not against the wish of their true master Melkor.

5)I have a proof for this: During the development of LOTR, Tolkien wrote notes suggesting that the difference between Trolls and Ents, where that Trolls were stone inhabited by a goblin-spirit. Thus trolls were stone-giants, and Ents were the tree-giants/Tree-folk .

6)Yes, Sauron could have used the Balrog to his advantage but only if he had known it. Yes, Sauron could definitely control him as he used to do it in the First Age when Melkor was his lord. He could control all other Balrogs except Gothmig because both were lieutenants.

7)There are many possibilities as we have little proof but still we can analyse that have been given to us by great Tolkien. 
It is not known when or if Radagast left Middle-earth. Tolkien writes that he forsook his mission as one of the Wizards by becoming too obsessed with animals and plants, so presumably he failed, and might not be allowed to return with honour. Tolkien also wrote that he did not believe that Radagast's failure was as great as Saruman's and that he may eventually have been allowed (or chose) to return to the Undying Lands. On the other hand, however, the primary mission of Radagast appointed by Yavannamay have actually been to watch over many of the flora and fauna of Middle-earth and to ensure their survival in the likely case if Sauron conquered Middle-earth, and in this, he succeeded.

8) It would seem that somehow Nimrodel and Amroth were separated in the White Mountains. some legends say that she stopped by a river that reminded her of Nimrodel in Lorien. There she fell into a deep sleep of weariness and so long she slept that she did not come down into Belfalas until Amroth's ship was blown out to sea. It also said that Galador, a Numenorean of Gondor married Nimrodel and there descendants were the great princes of Dol Amroth.

Now I am tired, I will give the answers to other questions another time. Please feel free to comment on my answers. Also, I prefer writing Melkor instead of Morgoth because I do not like the name Morgoth. My answers are just my analysis of the Annals of Middle Earth written by Tolkien(it's not a book). I can be incorrect also. 
You can whatever information you want about Middle Earth from me for I am one of the greatest loremasters of this age named only after Elrond in Elves and Malbeth the seer among men.


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## CirdanLinweilin (Nov 15, 2016)

Ingolmin, Tom is _not_ Illuvatar

Tolkien rejected this notion, saying that in Middle Earth


> "there is no embodiment of the One, of God, who indeed remains remote, outside the World"



and he carefully differentiated Goldberry's response from the Biblical "I Am that I Am". We do however, have Tolkien giving some symbolism to Tom: In a letter to Stanley Unwin, Tolkien called Tom Bombadil the spirit of the vanishing landscapes of Oxfordshire and Berkshire.


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## Ingolmin (Nov 16, 2016)

Oh, thank you for correcting, I almost forgot it Cirdan. Besides you have been living from the First Age. Just a joke!!
Now I will continue giving the answers of the rest of the questions-
9) Well, there are many flying creatures: dragons, eagles, black serpents of Sauron and many more. I don't clearly understand whom are you talking about. But I will answer what I know. The evil flying creatures were definitely bred by Melkor and his right hand Maiar Sauron though they would have been created by Eru while the good flying creatures like Eagles and other bird were created by Illuvitar and kept in the care of Manwe and Yavanna. I am not sure that the good winged creatures were created by Illuvitar because as far as I know Tolkien said nothing about this. Also there are many tales regarding the creation of bad winged creatures such as Sauron fed some and they become deadly serpents as were there in Lotr.

10)Who, what, or where Ungoliant came from is not clear; the Eldar and perhaps not even the Valar are certain. It is said by some that she came from the Darkness itself that lies about Arda and was once an ally of Melkor when he looked down upon the world with envy. Later, she changed her allegiance from him to herself, desiring only to be a mistress of her own insatiable craving to devour all light, to feed her everlasting emptiness. This means Tolkien was not certain.
Great spiders were the descendants of Ungoliant. Shelob, the great spider in the LOtr was the offspring of Ungoliant.
11)Nameless things that Gandalf referred to in the deeps of Arda were as mentioned follows.
There are many theories concerning their origin-

The Nameless Things were originally Maiar who entered Arda and worked under Melkor before Sauron entered the service of Melkor, hence the phrase, "Sauron knows them not for they are older than him", meaning they lived in the world longer than Sauron.
The Nameless Things were species from the void, much as Ungoliant. They were most likely caused by Melkor's independent singing in the Music of the Ainur.
The Nameless Things were among the creatures created by Melkor himself)
They could be beings though created by Illuvitar like all other animals but were corrupted by the Dark Lords and their servants.
12)Behind the Dark Door, the Paths went under the Dwimorberg, past another door where Aragorn and co. found the remains of Baldor, son of the second King of Rohan, Brego. The Paths then continued past forgotten cities, emerging at the southern end of the White Mountains in Morthond vale, near the Stone of Erech.

13)It is already answered on other sites. Please check it. 

14)In a letter, Tolkien says that these two wizards went into the East, and likely failed their mission, perhaps having started magical cults.However, all of this changes in a text written in the last year or two of Tolkien's life.They are said to have arrived not in the Third Age, but in the Second, around the year SA 1600, the time of the Forging of the One Ring. Their mission was directed at weakening Sauron's forces in the eastern part of Middle-earth. And it is here said that the Wizards far from failed; rather, they had a pivotal role in the victories of the West at the end of both the Second and the Third Ages. 
More is not mentioned in the history of Ea by Tolkien.

15)Watcher in the water was one of the nameless things. For further information you can see Answer no. 11.

16)Huan was a great wolfhound of the First Age. He was given by the Vala Oromë the Hunter to his friend Celegorm, one of the Sons of Fëanor. Huan was as large as a small horse, and accompanied Celegorm on his huntings. When the Ñoldor under Fëanor rebelled, Huan went with his master to Middle Earth. Huan was only a wolf who was granted special powers by the Valar but was not a Maiar himself.
Carcharoth, also known as the Red Maw, lived in the First Age of the Sun, and was the greatest werewolf who ever lived. Werewolves were servants of Morgoth, bred from wolves and inhabited by dreadful spirits (fallen lesser Maiar or the souls of orcs) imprisoned in these wolfish forms by Sauron. Carcaroth was fed by Melkor on living flesh and given great power as a defence against Huan. He was also not a Maiar.

17) The Great Eagles were beings of Arda said to have been devised by Manwë Súlimo. They would have got in-built power to talk by Illuvitar himself or Manwe would have given them the power to talk. Besides they were as they were created by Illuvitar, he made them big, made their body like that so that they could fly. The second part is truly an absurd question.

Well I have finished now. I might be incorrect also. Everybody is free to give comments regarding my answers. After all I am the greatest loremaster named only after Elrond among elves and Malbeth the seer among men.
Thank you in advance for the criticism I am going to receive. It is going to increase my knowledge further about Ea.


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## Cloudhauler (Jun 19, 2018)

Ingolmin said:


> 12)Behind the Dark Door, the Paths went under the Dwimorberg, past another door where Aragorn and co. found the remains of Baldor, son of the second King of Rohan, Brego. The Paths then continued past forgotten cities, emerging at the southern end of the White Mountains in Morthond vale, near the Stone of Erech.


But WHY was Baldor so frantic to get into the door?


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## Elthir (Jun 19, 2018)

No umbrella.

sorry


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## Cloudhauler (Jun 19, 2018)

Galin said:


> No umbrella.
> 
> sorry


Hahahahaha


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## CheriptheRipper (Oct 10, 2022)

Does anyone have anything on the two watchers in mordor. The ones that stopped people with their will, Sam had a hard time getting past em.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Oct 10, 2022)

#theresalwaysathread








Minas Morgul


A bunch of questions about this fun place. There seems to be a pass, a tower, and a city: 1. What are the division of responsibilities between Shagrat's and Gorbag's lads? 2. Gorbag says: The messages go through quicker than anything could fly, as a rule. Gorbag is hardly an...




www.thetolkienforum.com





Not perfect but the only one I could find where someone asked about them.
Here's also a decent Reddit thread about them 

__
https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/icaov1


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## CheriptheRipper (Oct 10, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> #theresalwaysathread
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You make me feel like a time traveler with some of the stuff you send my way lol.
I appreciate it though, some of those theories are pretty nice. The added bit of history makes it easier to understand what they might be as well. Now I finally know what that close up is for in the movie.
What do you reckon they are?


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## Erestor Arcamen (Oct 10, 2022)

CheriptheRipper said:


> You make me feel like a time traveler with some of the stuff you send my way lol.
> I appreciate it though, some of those theories are pretty nice. The added bit of history makes it easier to understand what they might be as well. Now I finally know what that close up is for in the movie.
> What do you reckon they are?


I always thought just dark spirits Sauron somehow controlled. Not sure exactly but that's the best I could come up with 😁.


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