# Sauron's Middle-Earth?



## Ancalagon (Nov 24, 2002)

Let's assume Sauron managed to take back the Ring, he defeated the free peoples of Middle-Earth, he became Master and Lord of Middle-Earth!

Do you think he would have simply savaged the lands, destroyed and polluted the Towns, Rivers, Lakes and Dwellings of Men? Alternatively, would he have set up a form of government to ensure his dominion was both fruitful and generous in paying him tribute and homage? What would be the point of ruling a barren wasteland? Would the sight of death and destruction all around him be his everlasting legacy, or would he desire to create realms with actual prosperity and people who genuinely desired to call him Lord? Would this not be more of an abomination against Eru that creating twisted and misshapen servants, who actually hated him rather than desire to serve him?


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## Celebthôl (Nov 24, 2002)

i think that, he would kill all the elves dwarves and men and especially hobbits he came across, and i believe that before he could entirely destoy middle earth the hoards of Valinor would intervine or at least the Valar would and deliver it back to the free peoples.

Thôl


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## menchu (Nov 24, 2002)

Blindness won't let you see further than where you's mind at.
I don't think he ever pondered that land he was about to destroy would be the land upon he would live.


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## TheFool (Nov 24, 2002)

hmm: is Mordor a blueprint for 'Sauron's vision of ME' - or is it just the base he needs to conquer the rest of the lands?

I think there's some more info in the 'terms & conditions' relayed by the 'Mouth of Sauron', maybe they can shed more light on this.


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## Ancalagon (Nov 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by menchu _
> *Blindness won't let you see further than where you's mind at.
> I don't think he ever pondered that land he was about to destroy would be the land upon he would live. *



You have to give Sauron more credit than simply lacking vision. Consider his forays into the Eastern lands, ever promoting the Dark Master, Melkor. He did not lay waste to these lands, far from it, he seems to encourage the creation of a willing empire of legions, faithful to him and very much in awe of him.


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## gate7ole (Nov 24, 2002)

> *from Morgoth's Ring*
> Sauron had never reached this stage of nihilistic madness. He did not object to the existence of the world, so long as he could do what he liked with it. He still had the relics of positive purposes, that descended from the good of the nature in which he began: it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall, and of his relapse) that he loved order and co- ordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction. (It was the apparent will and power of Melkor to effect his designs quickly and masterfully that had first attracted Sauron to him.) Sauron had, in fact, been very like Saruman, and so still understood him quickly and could guess what he would be likely to think and do, even without the aid of palantiri or of spies; whereas Gandalf eluded and puzzled him. But like all minds of this cast, Sauron's love (originally) or (later) mere understanding of other individual intelligences was correspondingly weaker; and though the only real good in, or rational motive for, all this ordering and planning and organization was the good of all inhabitants of Arda (even admitting Sauron's right to be their supreme lord), his 'plans', the idea coming from his own isolated mind, became the sole object of his will, and an end, the End, in itself.


Thus, if e.g Gandalf had accepted Sauron's proposal (through the Mouth of Sauron), there would come a terrible dictatorship, with heavy tributes and lose of all freedoms, but there wouldn't be any cataclysmic event.


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## YayGollum (Nov 24, 2002)

I don't think that life under Sauron would be that bad. He'd probably get rid of all the elves. Yay! Other than that, there'd just be a crazy dictatorship. I'm not saying that life under Sauron would be better than life under Aragorn or somebody, but it wouldn't be superly evil. He wouldn't go around killing everybody or anything. He'd just make sure that he was the best and everybody knew it. Tough luck for people who can't adapt. It could be worse, I'm sure. Still, Yay for Gollum saving the day, right?


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## TheFool (Nov 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by YayGollum _
> *I don't think that life under Sauron would be that bad.*


hehe so all those stories about Sauron's torture chambers aren't true, Gollum? Tea and biscuits down there, was it   

What about, say, if the Southrons invaded Gondor - who's going to keep order? Would Sauron 'deal' with such unrest, or would he just say 'tough, it's not really my problem'.. or would he only act if his own 'interests' were threatened?


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## YayGollum (Nov 25, 2002)

Hey, I doubt that the good guys' torture chambers weren't that fun, either! Or were they so good that they didn't have torture chambers? oh well. 
I would think that if the Southrons invaded Gondor, Sauron would have told them to. But then, if this is just another crazy hypothetical thing, I'd say that Sauron would get over there and make sure that everybody knew who was really in charge. Restoring order. Having all kinds of fun. Why not? Yay for the descendants of those stinky Numenoreans getting what they deserve, right?


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## Celebthôl (Nov 25, 2002)

K simple question why would u want to have ultimate power it wont get you anything or anywhere, it defeats me as to why ppl want all this power its all land i mean Sauron cant be doing it for money so what does he want it for i no the answer is power but for what?
(or am i just very Naive (sp) that i dont see it)?

Thôl


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## YayGollum (Nov 25, 2002)

Yikes! I wouldn't want all of that crazy power! If I had it, I'd send the Nazgul and the Mouth of Sauron off to do all my work for me. Ick. Too much responsibility, even if you are a superly evil dude. This evil dude probably wants all kinds of power because he's ummm...evil. He thinks that he's the coolest dude around and that he should be in charge of everybody. He's tired of being stuck in Morrrdorrr, ruling a bunch of mostly brainless dudes. He wants to have all kinds of fun making even more people miserable. He'd take great satisfaction getting back at people who's descendants messed with him. It's all Morgoth's fault. sorry about that.


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## menchu (Nov 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ancalagon _
> *You have to give Sauron more credit than simply lacking vision. Consider his forays into the Eastern lands, ever promoting the Dark Master, Melkor. He did not lay waste to these lands, far from it, he seems to encourage the creation of a willing empire of legions, faithful to him and very much in awe of him. *



True. However, -maybe I am being a fool- what about the needs all these people who swell the ranks of his legions have? For instance, the food. I won't dare to include Sauron himself in the list since my limited knowledge on ME doesn't 'hoard' too much on the Maia.
Would these wastelands be any useful at all when he had conquered the whole Arda? He wants things to be done 'in order', well, but that would probably be after the process of war and destruction had finished. Now, there could be some virgin areas left... enough to maintain his slaves?
Actually, what would happen next in your opinion?


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## Ithrynluin (Nov 26, 2002)

This has often puzzled me also. Sauron would probably subdue all the dwellers of ME to himself. He wouldn't lay waste to it IMO(or maybe just to those few places that have caused him the most grief and fear,like Lórien,Rivendell and Minas Tirith?). But what would he do next? Would he be content with the dominion of ME? Or would he somehow try to usurp the Undying Lands too?


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## Ancalagon (Nov 26, 2002)

The best description I have come across is from Myths Transformed;


> Sauron was 'greater', effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural stature, he had not yet fallen so low. Eventually he also squandered his power (of being) in the endeavour to gain control of others. But he was not obliged to expend so much of himself. To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth – hence all things that were born on Earth and lived on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be 'stained'. Morgoth at the time of the War of the Jewels had become permanently 'incarnate': for this reason he was afraid, and waged the war almost entirely by means of devices, or of subordinates and dominated creatures.
> Sauron, however, inherited the 'corruption' of Arda, and only spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings; for it was the creatures of earth, in their minds and wills, that he desired to dominate. In this way Sauron was also wiser than Melkor-Morgoth. Sauron was not a beginner of discord; and he probably knew more of the 'Music' than did Melkor, whose mind had always been filled with his own plans and devices, and gave little attention to other things. The time of Melkor's greatest power, therefore, was in the physical beginnings of the World; a vast demiurgic lust for power and the achievement of his own will and designs, on a great scale. And later after things had become more stable, Melkor was more interested in and capable of dealing with a volcanic eruption, for example, than with (say) a tree. It is indeed probable that he was simply unaware of the minor or more delicate productions of Yavanna: such as small flowers................Sauron had never reached this stage of nihilistic madness. He did not object to the existence of the world, so long as he could do what he liked with it. He still had the relics of positive purposes, that descended from the good of the nature in which he began: it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall, and of his relapse) that he loved order and co-ordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction.(It was the apparent will and power of Melkor to effect his designs quickly and masterfully that had first attracted Sauron to him.) Sauron had, in fact, been very like Saruman, and so still understood him quickly and could guess what he would be likely to think and do, even without the aid of palantiri or of spies; whereas Gandalf eluded and puzzled him. But like all minds of this cast, Sauron's love (originally) or (later) mere understanding of other individual intelligences was correspondingly weaker; and though the only real good in, or rational motive for, all this ordering and planning and organization was the good of all inhabitants of Arda (even admitting Sauron's right to be their supreme lord), his 'plans', the idea coming from his own isolated mind, became the sole object of his will, and an end, the End, in itself. *



I think this is actually worth discussing in itself


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## Celebthôl (Nov 27, 2002)

hmmm very intersting point Anc, where did this come from? (what book)?
also 
" Sauron had, in fact, been very like Saruman"
this i think was because they were both Maia of Aule and that is why they were alike.

Thôl


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