# Genius & Arrogance - Some quotes from our beloved forum...



## Walter

> "Geniuses are always the arrogant members of our society."
> -Eric Hoffer


Even if this was true, it doesn't mean that being arrogant makes anyone a genius...
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> Not to brag or anything, but if I left your precious forum would probably go down the toilet.


Quod erat demonstrandum...
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> The only person that keeps this forum alive in actuality is the Webmaster, and Readwryt as well.


Literally maybe, but it might become a lonely forum...
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> If you don't like it here there is another forum that would welcome ANYBODY with an axe to grind with us just to get their ears wrapped around more juicy gossip and one sided viewpoint about the community we try to maintain here.


No comments on this one, except that this quote is from a moderator here 

P.S.
I wonder whatever happened to that friendly, sophisticated, high-quality forum I joined last Nov.?


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## Hirila

I seem not to have read every single word on the forum. 
I do not doubt these words have really been said, but nonetheless I hope (and I think this is true) that most words here are friendly words. And I believe this just because I don't often read such harsh sentences as you have quoted, Walter. 

It might be difficult after such a long time on the forum to hold back your feelings for some members. But this is natural and as long as no war breaks out and such remarks don't spread I can live with it. Have to.


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## Beorn

You haven't read them yet...They were last night.



> The only person that keeps this forum alive in actuality is the Webmaster, and Readwryt as well.


...That's pointing out that without him (because he said to me that he didn't even care if he was banned, and that he attempted to provoke RW into doing it), the forum would adapt and function still.



> If you don't like it here there is another forum that would welcome ANYBODY with an axe to grind with us just to get their ears wrapped around more juicy gossip and one sided viewpoint about the community we try to maintain here.



It seems that many of our members are opting to go over to 'another forum.' Fine. They have been the ones hounding over every drop of news about TTF, and posting to the whole world how we copied them even as they refuse to acknowledge the solid, rock hard evidence against that. They are the ones who posted e-mails between people just to rally some of their members against us. We've said not a thing about them for a very long time...Yet they continually try to humiliate us, such as they claim that they are a beacon and we're a Dark Pit.




> I wonder whatever happened to that friendly, sophisticated, high-quality forum I joined last Nov.?


What happened? A lot of people came to the forum. We had somewhere around 300 registered users, and probably 50 active posters....It's a lot more. Prior to the recent pruning, there were 1800 registered users...

It's just like a village turning into a city. In the village, you know 90% of the people. In a city, you know a lot less. As in a city, crime goes up. In our case, there has been the need to add a net of 3 moderators. Also, in a village, some people wouldn't fit in. In our city, they fit in because there are more...There's just a lot more diversity, and because of that there are more clashes (*I am in no way saying diversity is bad*, because I love meeting new people).


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## Walter

> ...That's pointing out that without him (because he said to me that he didn't even care if he was banned, and that he attempted to provoke RW into doing it), the forum would adapt and function still.


Luis XIV said "L'etat se moi" ("The state am I"), but IMO a form of absolutism doesn't suit our forum all that well. I prefer to see it as a bank: How much would a bank be worth without the people depositing their money there? If they go elsewhere the bank will go down the drain, no matter how mighty or powerful the "owner" or the "staff" are...



> It seems that many of our members are opting to go over to 'another forum.' Fine.


No, it's not fine, it is sad. Wouldn't it be better than just to say "Fine - so be it" to try finding out, why this is so?

Btw., what are the benefits of living in a city now and what were the disadvantages of the small village back then? 

But, yes, I know, _"If I don't like it here..."_


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## Beorn

> _Originally posted by Walter _
> *Luis XIV said "L'etat se moi" ("The state am I"), but IMO a form of absolutism doesn't suit our forum all that well. I prefer to see it as a bank: How much would a bank be worth without the people depositing their money there? If they go elsewhere the bank will go down the drain, no matter how mighty or powerful the "owner" or the "staff" are...*


The point was that the forum would still work if Ulairi left, or was banned, and that there are still plenty of contributing members.



> No, it's not fine, it is sad. Wouldn't it be better than just to say "Fine - so be it" to try finding out, why this is so?


It's both. If someone wants it so badly in their heart to leave, they can leave. I've found out that it's not worth the trouble trying (and not suceeding) to convince someone to stay and keep out of trouble.



> Btw., what are the benefits of living in a city now and what were the disadvantages of the small village back then?


I'm not saying that either are bad, I'm just saying that things change.
In a city, there are a lot more opinions, and a lot more ideas spreading around. With more people, there is a greater knowledge base, more debates, and quicker answers.
In a village, there are fewer ideas circulating, so there are fewer debates. But, there are less conflicting opinions.


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## Walter

> The point was that the forum would still work if Ulairi left, or was banned, and that there are still plenty of contributing members.


 Of course I agree, but that's not what has been said:_The only person that keeps this forum alive in actuality is the Webmaster, and Readwryt as well. _Neither the WM nor RW IS this forum, we all are, and we all are replaceable, even RW or the WM...



> I've found out that it's not worth the trouble trying (and not suceeding) to convince someone to stay and keep out of trouble.


I didn't mean or say "try to convince someone to stay", I said "try to find out why so many are leaving", for this would - if done honestly and properly - reveal a lot of important information...



> In a city, there are a lot more opinions, and a lot more ideas spreading around.


But aren't we going for quantity rather than for quality, then? 



> With more people, there is a greater knowledge base, more debates, and quicker answers.


I doubt this is actually the case...


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## David Pence

Again, again, and again, I've stated that the primary rule I ask the moderators enforce, is the now infamous *NO PERSONAL ATTACKS* rule.
Simply put, this means that a member can 'attack' another member's post, but not the member _personally_.

It's true that each and every infraction does not instantly result is action taken by the moderators. But when a member exhibits a tendency to violate this rule, then the moderators will take some measures to correct the offending member. In fact, contrary to popular belief, we have banned only a very few members. Since August, 2001, only around 5 or 6 members have been banned. In the two years that these forums existed at another domain, I don't believe anyone was banned. Hardly the vast numbers that I'm told we've been accused of removing from THETOLKIENFORUM.com

Now, to my point. It seems to me that when examined, the cause of most of the criticism about this site stems from the belief that there should be no limits whatsoever placed on the exchange of opinions and ideas. That by not allowing members to engage in _personal_ attacks, we are 'bringing down' THETOLKIENFORUM.com, and forcing people to leave and join other forums where such activity is tolerated, and at times, encouraged.

What to do. Do we lift the ban on personal attacks, so that the few members who tend to violate the ban can feel uninhibited in their pursuit of an argument. Will doing this bring harmony, and an overall warm and fuzzy atmosphere to our site? Or do we continue to discourage inane and childish behavior, and bid a fond farewell to those who can't seem to participate in these forums under the very few rules we ask them to follow.

I think the answer is obvious. The idea that asking someone to refrain from personal attacks prevents them from 'freely' exchanging their point of view is ludicrous. Allowing members to tear down other members in an attempt to win an argument would quickly turn this site into little more than a war zone. You'd be surprised just how quickly a handful of people can destroy a discussion forum like ours. In fact, it was my failure to enact a 'no personal attack' rule that brought about the destruction of the first 'Tolkien Forum' I placed online several years ago. Close to 3,000 members reduced to under 200 in only a few weeks, because I believed that I shouldn't interfere with the members dialog, no matter how out of hand it got.

When I placed the second 'Tolkien Forum' online, I decided that I wouldn't allow personal attacks to go unchecked, but failed to install moderators to help enforce this rule. The result, the second didn't fair much better than the first. Though we are present several of the better members from this iteration, Moderator Beorn among them.

Learning from these past failures, the first action I took when I decided to attempt a third incarnation of The Tolkien Forum, was to install Ed Anderson (ReadWryt) as a moderator. Ed was a person I knew could help keep order among the membership, and who could find other Moderators to join the effort as the site grew. Without a doubt, I fully credit the success of THETOLKIENFORUM.com to the outstanding work performed by all the Moderators. Each of them put a great deal of effort into keeping the peace, and thus cultivating what I believe to be a healthy and active site, where fans of J.R.R. Tolkien can come together and share in their enthusiasm for his collective works. If the few people who find our rules too harsh to live by, then to be frank, I'd prefer that they leave. Despite what some people believe, no one member's departure, no matter how much that member may contribute, will bring about the ruin of THETOLKIENFORUM.com.

There, I've said my piece. The rule against personal attacks remains. The moderators are fully supported and credited for the overall health of the site. And those who feel that they are in someway hampered by basically one simple rule -- one that society as a whole agrees with -- can depart for less restrictive pastures, leaving the forum no poorer for their absence.

Now, aren't you all glad I don't pop in with these rambles more often.


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## ReadWryt

Woah...W.M.'s gettin outta hand...nearly up to 80 posts already!


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## Walter

I fully agree with our Webmaster about the "No personal attacks" rule, I think it a good rule to live by in a forum like this one, and furthermore I think anyone leaving just because of this rule will not be a sad loss. If anything I said seemed to be meant an attempt to tear this rule down I am sorry, I do not mean it and I did not say it.

What I did mean is, that this forum has decreased in overall quality since the time I have been off for a while, I no longer feel it is the friendly place it was when I joined. Of course I can see the problems that arise when the number of of members increases dramatically, I am fully aware of the destructive potential of members that are unable to debate issues without refraining from personal attacks just to win an argument. Especially since I strongly believe that this place is not about winning arguments but rather about gaining insight and knowledge about Tolkien's works.

However, what saddens me is, that 2 of the statements I quoted in my first post have been made by moderators, as for Cir's statement I concede that because of his youth he feels what he states, but I wonder when the Webmaster says


> *Each of them put a great deal of effort into keeping the peace*, and thus cultivating what I believe to be a healthy and active site, where fans of J.R.R. Tolkien can come together and share in their enthusiasm for his collective works.


 if this actually goes together with the statement of the "Über-Moderator" I quoted in my first post. I felt this statement highly offensive to everyone who cares about contributing to this site. Being a member of both forums - for a few weeks now - I am not at all happy with the quarrels that have been going on between those forums of late and frankly, none of the moderators of either forum participating in those quarrels has done their forum a favour in acting the way they did.

I don't mind anyone leaving because they can't live with the rules, I don't mind anyone being banned because of frequent violation of the rules, but I do mind statements like the one from our Über-Moderator for I do believe that statements like this one are one of the reasons so many members have been unhappy enough with this forum to - at least partly - turn their back on this place here. Even more so since IMO all other moderators are really doing a good job as far as I can tell...

Funny, being just a lowly member I can ramble too, I just wonder how long this post will survive...


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## Beorn

> _Originally posted by Walter _
> *Funny, being just a lowly member I can ramble too, I just wonder how long this post will survive... *



As long as you leave it up, or until it is pruned...


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## Hirila

> Again, again, and again



That's exactly what I'm thinking, too. And I am sad having to watch this going on. Though I have only watched such a debate once (then it was because of Harad) I'm sure it arises oftener. 

Perhaps I am a bit naive in saying this... but couldn't we just stop the discussion at this point?
We know all arguments that can be said and we are all unhappy about this to happen. In the end, when it comes to the point there are two possibilities, like WM has stated:



> Do we lift the ban on personal attacks, so that the few members who tend to violate the ban can feel uninhibited in their pursuit of an argument... Or do we continue to discourage inane and childish behavior, and bid a fond farewell to those who can't seem to participate in these forums under the very few rules we ask them to follow.



None is a real good solution. Personally I think this problem cannot be solved for it will arise every time people meet, discuss and get to like or dislike another. Even if every single member was banned, others would come and everything would begin anew. 

Let me give you another possibilty to consider: Let everything as it is!
The mods and WM are doing a great job keeping the forum (relatively) clean from unpleasant, nasty posts. But even they cannot prevent people taking a disliking to someone or something or whatever on this forum. This is impossible, noone should try to. Trying will only result in disappointment. And fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering! (or something like that  )
Discussion like this are going to come, you needn't be a seer to say that. But let's take them as a warning that things are getting out of control at the time. Then let us look into a mirror and try to change ourselves. For one thing is sure: if this is happening EVERYONE has his share in it. Then we can all calm down again (after having discussed it of course) and restore peace again. And noone is really hurt or banned. (Except for those really taking things too far. The possibility and danger of banning a member/being banned should be open)

But things could go their normal way again.


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## Thorin

IMO, I think the moderators and WM have a pretty high threshold of tolerance....There have been a few times when I've posted stuff and cringed as I hit the submit button thinking that I would be getting my hands slapped for it....And then nothing happens. Whew! I have been warned by moderators in threads along with other debaters to cool it, (Good old Anc!) and be nice....And deservedly so...

If the moderators lose patience with a member, the member has no one to blame but themself. And if they've gotten to that point where the mods are slapping them on the wrist continually, then maybe they should leave....I don't feel coddling the person is worth it when the mods and WM have so much to contend with....

I think it's funny how the Webmaster swoops in out of nowhere like the voice of God to set things straight... He mentioned 5 or 6 people being banned since the new forum...I only know of Harad...Who were the others? Is that why I never see Foe-Hammer and markrob anymore? Heh heh....


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## Walter

Actually I do see two choices for our forum at the moment:

A) The recent ongoings (not only the ones I quoted for those were just the tip the iceberg) will be declared as accidents, the owner and some of the staff will shrug off any criticism and go on to "business as usual". Some more members will become frustrated and turn their back on us, but new ones will join. I do not doubt the forum will survive and maybe even continue to grow, but the overall - and formerly outstanding - quality of this forum will continue to decrease.

B) The owner and some of the staff will come off their high horses and actually realize what has been going on of late that made more than just a few people contribute less here and eventually join other forums and try "to remove the cause but not the symptom" of this small "exodus from the promised land". Then, IMO, it is possible and likely that we can become the friendly place again that we have been just a few months ago...

*steps off his soapbox*


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## Beorn

> _Originally posted by Walter _
> *Actually I do see two choices for our forum at the moment:
> ...
> B) The owner and some of the staff will come off their high horses and actually realize what has been going on of late that made more than just a few people contribute less here and eventually join other forums and try "to remove the cause but not the symptom" of this small "exodus from the promised land". Then, IMO, it is possible and likely that we can become the friendly place again that we have been just a few months ago...
> 
> *steps off his soapbox* *



Well, I must be blind on top of my horse, and also off it. I knew a problem existed before I was a moderator. I tried getting something started...but it ended up adding a few rules, which have yet to be posted. And, now that I'm a moderator, I still can't figure out what's wrong.


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## ReadWryt

> The owner and some of the staff will come off their high horses and actually realize what has been going on of late that made more than just a few people contribute less here and eventually join other forums and try "to remove the cause but not the symptom" of this small "exodus from the promised land". Then, IMO, it is possible and likely that we can become the friendly place again that we have been just a few months ago...



...in truth, activity is down in almost EVERY Tolkien related site to some degree. After January this was to be expected.

I named no names as to what other place I was referring to in my statement about there being other forums, and any conclusion that a reader might come to about what forum I referred to only proves the accuracy of the description contained therein, because if they think that I am speaking of a forum which does those things, then they are correct and therefor so is my statement.


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## Uminya

In my own defense, I would like to note that the quote that is correctly attributed to me is not mean't that WM and RW keep the spirit of the Forum alive. I was referring to the fact that it is because of their time and money, the servers are maintained, upgrades are implemented, and problems are fixed. They give us the means by which we can be here to debate and agree and what not.

Now, as for the forum degredation, I have watched this phenomenon as well. When I was still active in the debates, I encouraged the taboo on single-word or pointless posts. In RP's and debates, I encouraged creative thinking and welcomed friendly criticism.

When the site began to be hit with wave after wave of new members, it became difficult to instill this atmosphere of cooperative debate. As less and less people were exposed to the core of debaters, less and less did they have an example to follow. This gave rise to people coming up with their own ways of getting things done (this parallels the village->city analogy of Beorn), and the schism between new and old increased. What we now have are cliques, non-friendly arguments, close-mindedness, and the unpleasant odor of unfriendliness.

This is how I see things, and if there is anything that can possibly done, I am more than eager to hear anything that can be done. My attempts as a single person have failed...but perhaps a coalition of members can be made to try and push back the tide of ill-change and if not go back to the old atmosphere, at least bring back that feeling of friendly community.

Thank you


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## ReadWryt

Suffice it to say, there are measures being actively taken to make the forum work for all of us in the ways we had come to enjoy it in the past. I suspect that part of the problem has to do with a form of Cabin Fevor that will continue until late November when the next massive throng imbues a great many new points of view and fresh thoughts, and the steadfast members who have been here for so long will not be tripping over each other in nearly every thread.

Most Tolkien sites are feeling the deflation in traffic due to the short term interest of those drawn to their sites by the bussle surrounding the movie, and things will bloat up again as we get closer to the next one. When we cleaned up the Data Base last time we indeed dropped by 800 members that had not posted in 3 months. This is not just because of School, disinterest in this community and personal matters drawing them away...Most all of the communities like this which I have been involved with in the past have seen this phenomenon in which the attention span of the population in general is not as long as those of the die hard fans who have stuck it out here. I don't say that in a pajorative manner, just state it as a fact. I know that I myself have from time to time joined discussion groups on different subjects for the purpose of obtaining imediate information on a subject and once gotten the particular site no longer drew my attention back to it.

With the changes and new methods already begining to be implimented the forum should be growing back to being more and more what we enjoyed about it before, while new ideas will be put into effect that will add managability, functionality and expanded vistas from which the community on the whole will benefit.


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## Uminya

Actually, Ulairi was banned temporarily because of at least 6 counts of personal attacks (of varying degrees of severity). Not just one, but six, and he was long overdue. Our new system will be less tolerant of rulebreakers as they tend to not take their preliminary warnings seriously.


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## Walter

> _Originally posted by ReadWryt _
> *...in truth, activity is down in almost EVERY Tolkien related site to some degree. After January this was to be expected.
> 
> I named no names as to what other place I was referring to in my statement about there being other forums, and any conclusion that a reader might come to about what forum I referred to only proves the accuracy of the description contained therein, because if they think that I am speaking of a forum which does those things, then they are correct and therefor so is my statement. *



It is hard to reply to a post like this one without making personal remarks, nonetheless I will try: This post shows me that our Über-Moderator evidently has learned nothing from mistakes made in the past and has decided to go on attacking this other forum. Being a member on both forums, I do like both, though my heart has still been residing here, but I will not tolerate continuous behaviour like this one from someone representing this forum as a leading member of the staff, without ceasing to contribute to this forum, for I can think of better ways to waste my time and energy...

I would like to congratulate ReadWryte, he has just p***ed one more member off, I will eventually be back when he has come off his high horse, until that time I wish you all well...


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## DGoeij

I'm ver very sorry to see a decent and nice member go like that. I cannot exactly follow what's going on, but maybe Readwryte would be so kind as to respond to it?
There are usually two sides to a story and I hope it can clear things up a little. Walter I consider to be one of the members who deserves great respect for his contributions to this forum, both in his knowledge of Tolkien and his personal behavior in general. 
His leaving does not make me feel happier about THETOLKIENFORUM.com.


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## ReadWryt

Yeah, I'll explain it. I'm being accused of chasing Walter off by doing in a less directly insulting way precisely what the Webmaster of another Forum is purposely maintaining entire threads to do with not one of these people complaining in TheTolkienForum outside of the staff saying ANYTHING to HIM about or comming to my defense. Not that I need defending, but it seems that if all these people who are "Dual Members" were voicing the same types of complaints to the people creating threads specifically for the purpose of insulting ME with direct and clear intent then I might not have such a problem with the whole deal. Oh well, I'm done with it anyways...


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## DGoeij

I do not pretty much care what they do in other forums. There's nothing wrong with moderators actually being real persons with real emotions and feelings and such. But if you actually insulted a member/group of members, even if it was a slip of the keyboard, is it that hard to simply apoligize?
Currently it strikes me as childish bickering, I hope our usual decent moderators are able to stay far away from. But I could be wrong, it happens to people.


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## Hirila

No ReadWryt, you didn't "chase him off". 
I guess it's all... well... not a series of misunderstanding, but a series of misinterpretations of what various people have said here. 
I don't know enough of what is going on on "this other forum" as you like to call it but what exactly is the point with always referring to it? There is one forum and there is another. What connects them is the topic and style and some members. Nothing else. Different rules on the forums may seem to cause a debate about which rules are the really good ones (and the others are bad). I use the terms "good" and "bad" purposely. It seems as if some people here think the one forum good and the other bad. But there is nothing like good or bad here. 
People come to a forum because they want to discuss certain issues, because they want to meet people. People have different opinions about how meetings and discussions should take place. And in the end they quarrel about over-subtle little things that have nothing to do with why they came here. 
It was never good to discuss how you should discuss. Couldn't you just change to a more suitable topic? One were a compromise can be found? Because on the other no consensus will ever be found. Not how certain rules are realised, but that there should be rules at all. This would be a topic were a compromise could be found. As to their exact realization... let people choose which realization they like best.

But don't quarrel about it and do not feel insulted when someone critizises you but try to find out how you came to being critizised. Because faults can always be found on both sides. 

*With this I ask both ReadWryt and Walter to bury the hatchet.* 

Meet, apologize, shake hands, go and drink some beer together. Do not forget what has been said but remember it as a warning as to what may happen again in the future. What about that?


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## Walter

Though I consider myself no longer a "Dual member", I would like to make one thing clear: If I would notice insulting statements towards an other forum - like the statement partly quoted in my first post here, or like the ones that have been made in the past by proponents of both forums - from a moderator over at this "unnamed forum" again, I would complain there in exactly the same way as I did complain here, and if those statements would not be taken back but rather confirmed by this moderator, as has been done here, I would not hesitate to take my leave there as well...

P.S.: Don't worry, RW, I do not try to sneak back in here, but I will follow this thread - and if necessary reply - until the posting ceases.

Hirila: I have buried my hatchet and taken my leave


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## ReadWryt

Good, well...start here 
***URLs removed by ReadWryt to prevent any further discussion of this matter which might inflame members of either forum***

and we can see what can be done. But truth to be told it seems like what I have said here pales in comparison to the way that the thread starter of these posts has demeaned me to his membership, of which you claim to be one of.

Let me get this straight, I think that forum is lovely, and when people over there are getting hot on topic it's as insightfull and inspired as anything I've see on here or other Tolkien related forums. The members are a mixed bag, like here, and the discussions are often lively and inteligent. I have nothing against the look of their site, and in some ways envy it. I have never had anything against anyone who signed up for an account over there outside of a couple of folks who made trouble here, but they are a miniscule minority.

What you WON'T see me doing is creating new threads specifically for the purpose of demeaning their site, or their staff. You will not see me making nearly as many posts to the membership of this site in which I say much of ANYTHING about them in fact, and certainly not as many as I see over there. One need only do a search over there for the terms TTF, TheTolkienForum.com or The Tolkien Forum to see the ratio is quite strongly ballanced the other way where the staff there is concerned in discussing us, and yet *I* am the guilty party once more for speaking the TRUTH about what is happening...and I even have done so without once mentioning any names specifically! It astounds me the hypocrisy of this whole ordeal...


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## daisy

Uh... RW, there is something you should know about redhead Tauruses.....


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## ReadWryt

I'm a red headed Pisces, and Pisces don't believe in that Astrology stuff...I know because I read it in a Horoscope book.


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## Walter

I have read this thread over there, but not until late last night and here's my reply over there:


> _Originally posted by Walter _
> *Well, folks, I have taken my leave over at TTF yesterday, more or less because of an insulting remark towards this forum and it's members.
> 
> I will not hesitate to leave here as well if insulting remarks towards TTF or it's members are being made here again.
> 
> Not that I think, anyone would overly care if I left, but I really can do without all that bs flying from here to there and vice versa, I want a forum where I can enjoy myself in interesting and
> meaningful discussions.
> Please, please stop this, it serves no purpose at all...*


What I would like to add is, that in fights like the ones between those two forums, *there will be no winner, but only losers: Both forums and their members.* The sooner the proponents of both forums stop this bs and learn to compete in a civilized manner, the lesser the damage will be, we will see how the mighty ones decide....


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## Uminya

*screams at the Phantoms*

wink, wink, grin, grin RW    

I think this complaining is a bit mis-placed. It's obvious that the "site in question" is the aggressor, and I see nothing wrong with defending oneself (or onesite )


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## Hirila

Here is the solution I have found for myself concerning this trouble I had the bad luck to watch: I am not going to waste my precious time on this topic any more. Do what you will. 
No, I'm not leaving the forum, I will go on posting like I always did, but I'm ready with this. And I recommend it to everyone also annoyed by this. I'm returning to my naive, blue-eyed state I was in before reading this thread. 
Bye, hope to see all of you on other "normal" threads.
Wish you much fun here!


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## Walter

I agree with Hirila, we should let this thread fade out so that the "phantoms" can rest in peace


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## DGoeij

I've read these posts at this other forum. Rather pathetic, both the start of it there and the response here. If the this other forum feels so threathened, that's their problem isn't it? 
Currently I became a member of that forum too, more interested in Tolkien than in bickering, but insults I will respond to. I'll see you in the more interesting threads of this forum.


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## ReadWryt

Walter,

Thank you for at least reciprocating and making the same statement of distain on both sites. I'm willing to drop the thing from any open posts where this particular matter is concerned now. I'm just going to mail the "other guy" an archived copy of this thread so that he can read, in context, just what was said so that he might make up his own mind in the matter, since he requested it and all and I can't Email him a link.

Also, and this will perhaps sound like a petty thing but it is important for me to say on behalf of BOTH forums, if I might be so bold as to speak for the other as well, I don't feel the need to "compete" at all. I feel that there is more then enough difference in both places in form, membership and content to permit the idea that people might join both in order to take in the full panarama of expressions of the love of this great author.

R.W.


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## Thorin

Bah! Insults-shminsults, bicker-schmicker! People who get offended to easily by others on this forum, miss the whole purpose of this forum,to discuss Tolkien the Great....If other forums are jealous that they need to insult, poof-sut (a French slang my father uses) on all of them!

Go RW!


LONG LIVE THE TOLKIEN FORUM!!!!!


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## Beorn

> Bah! Insults-shminsults, bicker-schmicker! People who get offended to easily by others on this forum, miss the whole purpose of this forum,to discuss Tolkien the Great....If other forums are jealous that they need to insult, poof-sut (a French slang my father uses) on all of them!



*We are trying to resolve the problems. People on both sides wish it to stop. Until (as far as I know) we the members of TTF posted no rude comments on our board, or on theirs until yesterday. They stopped posting rude comments, and we shall stop too. Both sides want the troubles resolved, and it is not helping by posting things like that, on either board.

I have spoken to a certain person who went to LotRO to post rude comments and otherwise un-needed fuel for the fire that we're trying to put out, not as a moderator, but as a person. If you wish to receive something similar from me, please continue your childish remarks about their forum, and you will see something in you PMs not too soon. Otherwise, be open minded, and stop slinging mud.*


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## Maedhros

Well said Beorn,althought the red, are you sure it's an appropiate color to post in?


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## Beorn

Quite sure.


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## Ancalagon

My god Beorn, I have peircing, stabbing pains shooting thru my retina's after viewing that


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## Walter

ReadWryt,

I appreciate this last post of yours, it sounds reasonable and in the best interest of the members of both forums to me.

Walter

P.S.: I should like to add, that Competition per se is not necessarily a bad thing, IMO a lot of good for both involved parties can come from it and everyone will benefit from forums where the administration, staff and members try to establish the best possible Tolkien-related forum around. Though I am aware that this means hard work for the staff involved, I think it is nonetheless worth the effort.


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## Walter

Beorn,

be prepared to receive a few bills from members' ophtalmologists...


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## DGoeij

Nananananaanaaaaa, I was able to get around the colour scheme by simply selecting the text with the handy mousy-thing you use to steer the little thingy on the screen.

Glad to see things are settling down though.

And Beorn, you look really cute when you speak with authority.


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## Ancalagon

> by simply selecting the text with the handy mousy-thing you use to steer the little thingy



Thanks for sharing this with us, I now feel fully informed on the matter?!?


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## ReadWryt

*RED ON GREEEEEEN!! Aaaaaarrrrrrggggghhh! It BURNS! It buuuurrrrnnns! My gawd, I can't see...*

Anyways, I got a very nice letter from the fella that runs the other forum thanking me for sending him the archived copy of this entire thread so that he might see just what I had said in context...well, up to the point where I added the part about us not being in competition, that was an after thought and added to the post through the magic "edit button". He even called me by my first name...heheh. It looks as if this might get resolved for the sake of the membership(s) thank goodness...

R.W.

(Now if his staff over there would stop telling lies about me, saying that I have purposely ignored PMs from members and MODERATORS over here, we might get some resolution to all this mess...)


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## DGoeij

> _Originally posted by Ancalagon _
> *
> 
> Thanks for sharing this with us, I now feel fully informed on the matter?!?
> 
> *



You know, the arrow that turns into a curso, turns into a hand, turns into various other forms....... the small chameleon on the screen.

DUH!


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## Maedhros

> (Now if his staff over there would stop telling lies about me, saying that I have purposely ignored PMs from members and MODERATORS over here, we might get some resolution to all this mess...)


For the sake of peace, i withdraw my words, I'm not saying I was wrong, I'm withdraw them for the "greater good".


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## ReadWryt

It's a shame, I was looking forward to some evidence...


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## Walter

After RW's former post I was about to say that it seems to me that finally at least something good has come from this mess, when the administrators and staff of both forums can exchange mails and talk openly and friendly. I think I shall keep my fingers crossed that things remain on friendly terms and the "mud slinging" won't ever start again...

-------------
Just a sidenote: The Webmaster is rapidly aproaching a 3-digit post count, I take it the forum will have a party sometime soon? Too bad, though, that only about 2/3 of the posts are visible to the lowly folks, I guess it would've been interesting to see some of the posts made behind the curtains of late...


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## David Pence

Post count? What be this ... post count?


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## Walter

> _Originally posted by Webmaster _
> *Post count? What be this ... post count?  *


Well at least you didn't say: Party? What be this ... party? 

....but then again...it could as well mean: No post count, hence no party... :confused


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## Gamil Zirak

> _Originally posted by Webmaster _
> *Post count? What be this ... post count?  *


Three more posts WB and you can finally get a custom user title and get rid of that borish "Administrator" one. At the pace you've been going, I bet you can get it by the end of the month.


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## Beorn

> _Originally posted by Walter _
> *Just a sidenote: The Webmaster is rapidly aproaching a 3-digit post count, I take it the forum will have a party sometime soon? Too bad, though, that only about 2/3 of the posts are visible to the lowly folks, I guess it would've been interesting to see some of the posts made behind the curtains of late...  *



Ya beat me to it! I _was_ planning a surprise party for him...Shh...WM don't look! Don't listen.


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## Lorien

Post count is that number on the side that usually changes when you're done with making a post or deleting one WM.
Gamil Zirak, WM wouldn't give up that 'Administrator' title of his for anything (well maybe for somethings like loads and loads of money and maybe a nice sporty Jaguar). You see WM doesn't want us to steal that title of his behind his back.

*Starts thinking of ways and means he can get WM to give up that title.*
How about it WM? What's the price for that title?


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## Walter

> _Originally posted by ReadWryt _
> ...it's really due to the incredible ability of the membership to keep the forum lively, entertaining and constantly new. You have all done an amazing thing here, congealing into a community devoted to the celebration of the beloved writings of J.R.R. Tolkien.
> 
> Keep up all the good work, *it's a joy to serve you as I can and an honor to work beside the Staff who have agreed to help maintain this site.*


Hear, hear, hear...

Well, I'm back...I think...


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## Camille

Good to have you back Walter!


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## DGoeij

Alrighty then!

Kinky avatar. I didn't know you were an artist as well.


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## Walter

> _Originally posted by DGoeij _
> *Alrighty then!
> 
> Kinky avatar. I didn't know you were an artist as well. *


Ummm...ermmm...I have to confess....

I "borrowed" from you some...


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## Walter

Actually I was thinking of a more "sophisticated" one for you as well...


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## DGoeij

Wauw. I'll try and put that one up as my avatar. Thank you very much! It's just the finishing touch I was wondering about.


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## DGoeij

Hmmmm. It is waving alright, but what happened to the white background? It's not very clear what it is anymore.
Could it go back on a white background? Or maybe can you turn it yellow and put in on a blue background? I tried, but I'm not that good at it.


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