# Sauron vs Melkor: Who was the greater force for evil?



## 1stvermont (Nov 12, 2018)

*Sauron vs Morgoth who did More to Counter the Free Peoples? *

This is not a question of who was more powerful at creation, but who did more evil to the free peoples. I will argue that Sauron was the most powerful force for darkness in all of Middle-earth. And that his power was greater than Melkor's for much of history and he accomplished more than did morgoth. At creation of course melkor was the most powerful being created by Eru as the most powerful of the valar. However as I argue elsewhere the valar are not as powerful as often believed. Further the differences from valar to maiar I believe are not as great as often thought

“_And the Valar drew unto them many companions, some less, some well nigh as great as themselves, and they laboured together in the ordering of the Earth and the curbing of its tumults.”
*-*The Sillmarillion Ainulindale_

“_Melian was a maia, of the race of the valar”
-Of Thingol and melian_

So maiar and valar are of the same race as elves are with men and elves like Thingol, married maiar like melian. The chief among the maiar in valinor was a Maiar Eonwe, the banner bearer and herald of Manwe, “whose might in arms is surpassed by none in arda.” Neither is the valar's “power” a power of strength- but a power in creation to accomplish Eru's design for them. In Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth Tolkien says of the valar “They had sufficient power for their functions.” Much of their power has to do with the potential for creation. Morgoth fled often from Tulkas even though he was the most powerful of the valar. As a poster stated


“_Tolkien did not really think in terms of video game–style levels of power. Power to him was an intangible thing that can take many forms, and is not the same as raw strength or destructive ability. Tulkas, one of the Valar, is the strongest and the best at fighting; but he's certainly not the most powerful among them, and he readily accepts Manwë's leadership...Likewise, Morgoth at his height was the most powerful nondivine entity in Arda; but even he was defeated in a fight by Ungoliant, who could only do one thing (engulf and consume things in darkness), but could do it really, really well.To Tolkien, the power to resist, the power to stay true to your goals, the power to inspire other people to follow you, were all equally or more important than the power to win battles or use “magic” to change the world..”_

Melkor poured much of his strength into the creation of arda [before his fall] reducing his power. Also he used much of his strength corrupting the matter itself of arda and pouring his malice into orcs and other creatures. Melkor was envious of Feanor because of his great crafting abilities. Ungoliant the giant spider was able to match Morgoth in battle and he had to be saved by his servants the balrogs [his power was not yet reduced by giving it to other creatures yet, see Annuls of Ammon Morgoths Ring] .


“_Ungoliante....drank and swelled to a shape so vast and hideous that even Melkor was adread...morgoth could not master her and she emeshed strangling webs, and his dreadful cry echoed throughout the world.” 
- Morgoths Ring AAM_

He later lost the silmarill to Beren and Luthian. He was besieged by the Noldor for 400 years. When the high elf king Fingolfin challenged melkor to a 1v1 fight. Morgoth  feared Fingolfin and did not want the fight but had to accept given the horn blasts of Fingolfin being so loud that all his servants would know of his fear. In the 1v1 dual the elvin king wounded melkor eight times including one on his foot that bled and caused morgoth to forever limp. Morgoth gave a cry of anguish and his nearby chieftains “fell on there faces in dismay.”It was not until “the king grew weary” [having traveled a long distance to challenge melkor] that Morgoth was than able to kill him. Following the fight Thorondor king of the eagles, marred Morgoths face and stole the body of the king from him. Morgoth limped on one foot and never fully recovered from his wounds.


_[Morgoth was]“Severely wounded by fingolfin and Thoronder in 455 and lost a silmarill to Beren and Luthian in 467”
-Robert Foster Tolkien's World from A to Z: The Complete Guide to Middle-Earth_


Further it is prophesied in the second prophecy of mandos, Morgoth is to be killed by a man, Turin.


_"Sauron, greatest and most terrible of the servants of Morgoth, who in the Sindarin tongue was named Gorthaur".
-The Silmarillion, Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin._


“_He became the greatest and most trusted of the servants of the Enemy, and the most perilous.”
-The Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age_



*Sauron*


Sauron was the greatest of Morgoth's Servants so much so that melkor left Sauron in charge of the war with the noldor when he left and Angband was controlled by Sauron and was the rallying point for the servants of Melkor after his capture.


“_Melkor had made also a fortress [after called Angband]...this was in the command of Sauron.”
-The Later Sillmarillion the war of the Jewels_

In the Grey Annuls we read that Sauron often led the successful assaults of morgoths armies in the first age such as on Inglor, Minias-tirith, Dorthonion etc. He also found Barahir and his outlaws when Morgoth could not “Thither, Barahir and his outlaws withdrew....and Morgoth could not discover it. Therefore he commanded Sauron to find and destroy the rebels speedily.” and Sauron did.

Sauron had accumulated vast knowledge from Melkor and other valar. ButSauron had not fallen so low as Morgoth. In myths transformed Tolkien said “He was not obliged to expand so much of himself” compared to Melkor. Sauron only spent his power on the rings while melkor poured his power into corruption middle earth and its creatures. This enabled Sauron to “pick up” where melkor left off and build upon his power and efforts.


“_It was this Morgoth element in matter indeed witch was a prerequisite for such “magic” and other evils as Sauron practiced with it and upon it.” 
-Myths Transformed_

Also in myths transformed we read “Sauron was also wiser than melkor.” and “It was Sauron also, who secretly repaired Angband. And there the dark places underground were already manned with hosts of orcs.” and again “It was Sauron who, during the ages of melkor's captivity in Aman, brought into being the black armies that were available to his master when he returned.” Sauron not melkor had the idea of breeding orcs for infantry, melkor did so to make fun of men/elves out of hate. Further “Sauron achieved even greater control over his orcs than Morgoth had done.” It was also Sauron who worked to create trolls from a dumb useless beast.

“_In their beginning... the eldar days, these were creatures of dull and lampish nature and had no more language than beasts. But Sauron had made use of them, teaching them, what they could learn, and increasing their wits and wildness.”
-J.R.R Tolkien Myths Transformed

Sauron was “more capable of calculation than melkor he was able to achieve things, first conceived by Melkor, which his master did not or could not complete in the furious haste of his malice.” 
-Myths Transformed_

Sauron invented the black speech and had more success than Morgoth in middle earth. Sauron was able to avoid capture by the valar and continued the work of his master into the fourth age. He has his way with the Eldar, sacking Eregion of the Noldor, holding at bay Elrond, and advancing toward the Grey Havens.For long peridos of time

“_Sauron was become now a sorcerer of dreadful power, master of shadows and of phantoms, foul in wisdom, cruel in strength, misshaping what he touched, twisting what he ruled, Lord of werewolves, his dominion was torment.”
-The Sillmarillion_

“_Sauron became almost supreme in middle-earth.... he ruled a growing empire from the great dark tower of barad-dur in Mordor.... wielding the one ring.””
-Letters 131_


“_The strength of his terror and mastery over men had grown exceedingly great.”
-Akallabeth The Sillmarillion_


Later he single handle took out the mightiest nation of men that ever lived, the Númenóreans. He than was abel to turn them against the valar and forced Eru to remake the world. In letters 130 Tolkien said of the attack on valinor “The Numen-oreans directed by Sauron could have wrought ruin in Valinor itself.” Sauron slayed the last high king of the Noldor Gilgalad, as well as Elendil. Nowhere did morgoth have this kind of success. He had to flee valinor after sneaking in while Eru had to change the world to stop Sauron. Further during the second age Sauron owned massive amounts of middle earth.

“_Sauron was greater, effectively, in the Second Age, than Morgoth at the end of the First.”
-Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed_


He became more powerful in the third age with the creation of the one ring.

“_while he wore it his power was enhanced”
J.R.R Tolkien letters 130_


He deceived the 9 who turned into the The nazgul, it is said in _of the rings of power and the third age_ were “the mightiest of Saurons servants” and of course the strongest of them all the witch king himself and their use of fell beats in the third age. He recived some of the dwarves rings as well. He Corrupted Suaroman, created Grond to break down the walls of minas tirith and reunited the orcs to make war on the free peoples while reestablishing Mordor as the great power in middle earth.


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## Gilgaearel (Nov 12, 2018)

Morgoth for his "originality".


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## Eebounnie (Nov 14, 2018)

I'm quite in the middle for this one.
Morgoth was the origin of everything evil and he's power (especially at the beginning) was incomparable. He's the one who created the balrog, fire and ice, the dragons and pretty much every disgusting and wicked things. 

But at the same time Sauron was quite a good student. I think Morgoth was overwhelmed by his hatred and Sauron was more patient and cunning. For me Sauron is the perfect definition of deceitful. I'm not sure if this phrasing is correct but I do not know how to explain it better. 

(I still have a "soft spot" for Morgoth as he's THE drama king, Feanor being a close second.)


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## 1stvermont (Nov 14, 2018)

Eebounnie said:


> I'm quite in the middle for this one.
> Morgoth was the origin of everything evil and he's power (especially at the beginning) was incomparable. He's the one who created the balrog, fire and ice, the dragons and pretty much every disgusting and wicked things.
> 
> But at the same time Sauron was quite a good student. I think Morgoth was overwhelmed by his hatred and Sauron was more patient and cunning. For me Sauron is the perfect definition of deceitful. I'm not sure if this phrasing is correct but I do not know how to explain it better.
> ...




I think it was a letter of tolkiens that morgoth was so obsessed with evil and destroying, he could not use to his advantage various races or objected in ME to his own advantage the way sauron could.


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## Gilgaearel (Nov 15, 2018)

Morgoth! Original, absolute and with out of the box thinking evilness. He is bad and he shows it, he doesn't have and he doesn't even try to deceit anyone.
Because he's bad...!


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## Miguel (Nov 15, 2018)

At the end of the day, Gorsodh was a student, a lieutenant and a hand. 

This would be more fitting to what Bauglir is all about. Guess why Ingwë never wanted to look or think about Middle-Earth again?.


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## Elassar (Jan 27, 2022)

No question morgoth. Sauron was once Melkors lieutenant, Sauron is of the lesser Mair and Morgoth is the greatest of the valar ifbthese two were too fight morgoth would stomp


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## m4r35n357 (Jan 27, 2022)

Did Morgoth even take Sauron back after Luthien kicked him out of Minnastirith? I know he fled to Taur-na-Fuin, but I am guessing he would not have been a particular favourite back in Angband after that failure?

I mean, how post-modern do we need to get to make Sauron _appear_ more powerful?


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## Sauronisbetter (Jan 31, 2022)

Morgoth was power wise stronger but Sauron was the greater one, his scheme was so fantastically evil and much more successful. Sauron created the most powerful object in middle earth using his wit, talent, power and pure evil. This I think sort of in the end makes him stronger as I definitely think that the one ring would overpower Morgoth.


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## Aldarion (Feb 1, 2022)

Sauron might have achieved more directly, but it was Morgoth that was the ultimate origin of all evil in Arda. So seeing how everything Sauron did would have been impossible without Morgoth, I'd say that Morgoth was definitely a greater evil.


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