# Nice orcs



## Durino Dagnir (Feb 19, 2004)

In the Silmarillion, it says that all races were divided at Dagorlad, except Elves. Does this mean there were good orcs?


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## Courtney (Feb 20, 2004)

I can't imagine there were "good" orcs... But perhaps there were. Maybe it just means that some orcs did not fight?
Or maybe by "races" it means the free races since orcs were slaves of Melkor/Sauron and later Saruman.

hmmm... very interesting...


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## krash8765 (Feb 25, 2004)

I dont think its possible that there were good orcs. Thats like saying there were evil elves.


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## Confusticated (Feb 25, 2004)

Could maybe be interpreted as meaning that orcs where divided among themselves?


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## GuardianRanger (Feb 26, 2004)

krash8765 said:


> I dont think its possible that there were good orcs. Thats like saying there were evil elves.



Take a look at this thread to see some discussion that rebuts the thought that there were no evil elves.

However, I suppose the argument could be made that elves themselves (that's weird) were not evil, that their surroundings and environment help shape them towards evil.


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## reem (Feb 29, 2004)

Orcs were specifically ‘created’ by Morgoth to do his evil bidding. Perhaps some did not like doing it because it was too much of a bother, but they are evil in inclination. They have no capacity for doing intentional good. Perhaps the wording in the Sil. wasn’t complete and was overlooked by Tolkien
reem


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## Flame of Udûn (Feb 29, 2004)

> So in this myth, it is 'feigned' (legitimately whether that is a feature of the real world or not) that He gave special 'sub-creative' powers to certain of His highest created beings: that is a guarantee that what they devised and made should be given the reality of Creation. Of course within limits, and of course subject to certain commands or prohibitions. But if they 'fell', as the Diabolus Morgoth did, and started making things 'for himself, to be their Lord', these would then 'be', even if Morgoth broke the supreme ban against making other 'rational' creatures like Elves or Men. They would at least 'be' real physical realities in the physical world, however evil they might prove, even 'mocking' the Children of God. They would be Morgoth's greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad. (I nearly wrote 'irredeemably bad'; but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making – necessary to their actual existence – even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God's and ultimately good.)





> _The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien Letter 153_



As they are not irredeemably bad, then they could be good at some point, perhaps if they were left alone by the higher evil powers such as Morgoth and Sauron.


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## oikeroi (Mar 23, 2004)

*no nice orcs*

orcs are the resault of Melkor work. Back in the early days before the raising of the son and the moon, Melkor captured elves and by evil doing turned them to orcs. Orcs are the opposite of Elves' they hate light, they only destroy, and have no love for music and singing.
There are no good orcs.







Durino Dagnir said:


> In the Silmarillion, it says that all races were divided at Dagorlad, except Elves. Does this mean there were good orcs?


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## Inderjit S (Mar 23, 2004)

Nice/good orks is a paradox. Sure, Orks could have been nice, but they were so intrinsically evil that they couldn't be nice...  

The only nice Ork that I know of is Lurtz. Why? Because Lutrz doesn't exist except in Jackson's so technically Lurtz isn't evil but he isn't nice either.


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## Dáin Ironfoot I (Mar 23, 2004)

Perhaps by saying all races were split, in the Orcs case, Tolkien meant that some orcs simply fought _one another_ without knowing it. They have a horrendous track record for such sorts of kinslaying...


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## Thorondor_ (May 28, 2005)

> But if they 'fell', as the Diabolus Morgoth did, and started making things 'for himself, to be their Lord', these would then 'be', even if Morgoth broke the supreme ban against making other 'rational' creatures like Elves or Men. They would at least 'be' real physical realities in the physical world, however evil they might prove, even 'mocking' the Children of God. They would be Morgoth's greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad. (I nearly wrote 'irredeemably bad'; but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making – necessary to their actual existence – even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God's and ultimately good.)


 
That's an excellent quote. If "Morgoth broke the supreme ban against making other 'rational creatures" then the orcs had the posibility of choice - otherwise, what would be the point of their reasoning? I know that they were ruled by a dark power, but if they are completely controlled by that power, that there is no point for them having a reason of their own, they don't need to "add" to the reasoning of that dark power. If they have free will and also their evilness is only natural but not irremediable, I would certainly believe that good orcs did exist. As it is said, one thought of Light can disperse thousands of years of Darkness


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## Barliman Butterbur (May 28, 2005)

Durino Dagnir said:


> In the Silmarillion, it says that all races were divided at Dagorlad, except Elves. Does this mean there were good orcs?



You mean on the order of Shrek?

Barley


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## Hammersmith (May 28, 2005)

Dáin Ironfoot I said:


> Perhaps by saying all races were split, in the Orcs case, Tolkien meant that some orcs simply fought _one another_ without knowing it. They have a horrendous track record for such sorts of kinslaying...


Though unfounded, that's a great idea!
I'd like to think that it suggests several "orcs" were redeemed, and rescued back to their elvish origins. Tremendously unlikely of course, but it does give one a warm, fuzzy feeling deep inside.


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## Thorondor_ (May 28, 2005)

Not necesarily to their elven origins, but still be able to choose the path of good (ok, at least a neutral path).


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## OldTomBombadil (May 29, 2005)

Flame of Udûn said:


> As they are not irredeemably bad, then they could be good at some point, perhaps if they were left alone by the higher evil powers such as Morgoth and Sauron.


So you're saying that Orcs are a product of a bad environment?

Hmmm. I wonder if we'd ever hear a pack of orcs singing this...

_RIFF:_
_Dear kindly Sergeant Krupke, _
_You gotta understand, _
_It's just our bringin' up-ke _
_That gets us out of hand. _
_Our mothers all are junkies, _
_Our fathers all are drunks. _
_Golly Moses, naturally we're punks!_

_RIFF and QUARTET:_
_Gee, Officer Krupke, we're very upset; _
_We never had the love that every child oughta get. _
_We ain't no delinquents, _
_We're misunderstood. _
_Deep down inside us there is good!_

_RIFF:_
_There is good!_

_ALL:_
_There is good, there is good, there is untapped good. _
_Like inside, the worst of us is good._

_SNOWBOY (imitating "Krupke") (spoken):_
_That's a touchin' good story._

_RIFF (spoken):_
_Lemme tell it to the world!_

_SNOWBOY ("Krupke") (spoken):_
_Just tell it to the judge._

_RIFF:_
_Dear kindly Judge, your Honor, _
_My parents treat me rough. _
_With all the marijuana, _
_They won't give me a puff. _
_They didn't wanna have me, _
_But somehow I was had. _
_Leapin' lizards, that's why I'm so bad!_

_DIESEL ("Judge"):_
_Right! Officer Krupke, you're really a square; _
_This boy don't need a judge, he needs an analyst's care! _
_It's just his neurosis that oughta be curbed. _
_He's psychologically disturbed!_

_RIFF:_
_I'm disturbed!_

_ALL:_
_We're disturbed, we're disturbed, _
_We're the most disturbed, _
_Like we're psychologically disturbed._

_DIESEL ("Judge") (spoken):_


_RIFF (spoken):_
_Hey, I'm depraved on account I'm deprived!_

_DIESEL ("Judge") (spoken):_
_So take him to a headshrinker..._

_ACTION: Who me?_

_RIFF:_
_My daddy beats my mommy,_
_My mommy clobbers me._
_My grandpa is a commie,_
_My grandma pushes tea. _
_My sister wears a mustache, _
_My brother wears a dress. _
_Goodness gracious, that's why I'm a mess!_

_ACTION ("Psychiatrist"):_
_Yes! Officer Krupke, he shouldn't be here._
_This boy don't need a couch, he needs a useful career._
_Society's played him a terrible trick, _
_Und sociologically he's sick!_

_RIFF:_
_I am sick!_

_ALL:_
_We are sick, we are sick, _
_We are sick sick sick, _
_Like we're sociologically sick!_

_ACTION ("Psychiatrist") (spoken):_
_In my opinion, this child don't need to have his head shrunk at all. Juvenile delinquency is purely a social disease!_

_RIFF (spoken):_
_Hey, I got a social disease!_

_ACTION ("Psychiatrist") (spoken):_
_So take him to a social worker!_

_RIFF:_
_Dear kindly social worker, _
_They tell me get a job,_
_Like be a soda jerker, _
_Which means I'd be a slob._
_It's not I'm anti-social, _
_I'm only anti-work. _
_Glory Osky, that's why I'm a jerk!_

_A-RAB ("Social Worker"):_
_Eek! Officer Krupke, you've done it again. _
_This boy don't need a job, he needs a year in the pen. _
_It ain't just a question of misunderstood; _
_Deep down inside him, he's no good!_

_RIFF:_
_I'm no good!_

_ALL:_
_We're no good, we're no good, _
_We're no earthly good, _
_Like the best of us is no damn good!_

_DIESEL ("Judge"):_
_The trouble is he's lazy._

_ACTION ("Psychiatrist"):_
_The trouble is he drinks._

_A-RAB ("Social Worker"):_
_The trouble is he's crazy._

_DIESEL ("Judge"):_
_The trouble is he stinks._

_ACTION ("Psychiatrist"):_
_The trouble is he's growing._

_A-RAB("Social Worker"):_
_The trouble is he's grown._

_ALL:_
_Krupke, we got troubles of our own!_

_Gee, Officer Krupke, _
_We're down on our knees,_

_RIFF: _
_'Cause no one wants a fella with a social disease._

_ALL: _
_Gee, Officer Krupke, _
_What are we to do? _
_Gee, Officer Krupke, _
_Krup you!_

No? I didnt' think so, either.


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## Thorondor_ (May 29, 2005)

Well Saul did become apostle Paul, right? And the christian roots of Tolkien's world cannot be denied. But I don't envision orcs becoming elves, I only believe they could once become organised around another purpose than evil. Sure, that society could be greedy (but so are the dwarves) and there wouldn't be so much trust among them (but then again, so are the Children of Iluvatar), they wouldn't necessarily be artists or creators like the elves (neither are the hobbits). Just a tolerated society.


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## Flame of Udûn (May 29, 2005)

OldTomBombadil said:


> So you're saying that Orcs are a product of a bad environment?
> 
> Hmmm. I wonder if we'd ever hear a pack of orcs singing this...
> 
> ...


I didn't actually read all of that, but I assume you think that I was elevating nurture disproportionately. I was simply following Tolkien's choice of words to their conclusion, then adding a suggestion on conditions for their redemption. If you can think of anything else I would be interested.


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## Arat Macar (Jun 14, 2005)

Thorondor_ said:


> Well Saul did become apostle Paul, right? And the christian roots of Tolkien's world cannot be denied.



Very true and let me also point out that for Tolkien to say that orks were not irredeemable did not mean in any way that he thought orks could redeem themselves with good behavior or with the right environment. Tolkien thought humanity was redeemable but not by themselves, they required a Christ.


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## Thorondor_ (Jun 14, 2005)

Arat Macar said:


> Very true and let me also point out that for Tolkien to say that orks were not irredeemable did not mean in any way that he thought orks could redeem themselves with good behavior or with the right environment. Tolkien thought humanity was redeemable but not by themselves, they required a Christ.


 
A saviour Christ (who would take over all the sins), or an encouraging, inspiring Christ-figure like Gandalf? To what extent wasn't humanity redeemable by its own means?


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## Alatar (Jun 14, 2005)

I agree that the orcs rebeled that day and settled old sores,so fought on both sides.
Btw It must have been a great day for wildlife experts!


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## Durin's Bane (Jun 14, 2005)

Durino Dagnir said:


> In the Silmarillion, it says that all races were divided at Dagorlad, except Elves. Does this mean there were good orcs?


First of all I don't think orcs can be qualified as a race light-heartedly since they were once elves.
Secondly... go and play Warcraft if you want 'nice orcs', I don't think you can find any in Tolkien's works.
Orcs are created by an evil will to serve an evil purpose so why would their maker make the mistake to leave anything good in their corrupted souls.


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