# Which Middle Earth "X-file" annoys you the most?



## Ithrynluin (Jan 27, 2003)

After numerous discussions, we Tolkien fans still haven't got to the bottom of many issues. Many people are annoyed even at the mention of some of these topics. So which one ticks you off the most?
Or do you find them enjoyable and insightful every time they are discussed?


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## Éomond (Jan 28, 2003)

I find all of them interesting. I find all of Tolkien's works interesting


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## Lasgalen (Jan 28, 2003)

I just don't get Tom Bombadil. My spouse and I have arguments over him. I think the whole Bombadil thing could have been left out without any harm to the plot.

-Lasgalen


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## Arvedui (Jan 28, 2003)

I know Balrogs have wings. 
I know Glorfindel is one and the same. 

That leaves Bom Tombadil. Who is he?  

I go for T.B.

Funny misspelling, that one...


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## BlackCaptain (Jan 28, 2003)

Its Tom Bombadil. Not Bom Tombadil.
And its not like he annoys me, its just he's the most mysterious of all of them...


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## Confusticated (Jan 28, 2003)

Glorfindel by far! It seems to me that there is no reason to question it - of course it was all one Glorfindel, not two. 


I have no interest in the Balrog or Tom B topics. I feel no need to know what Tom B was, and I don't care if the balrogs had wings or not.


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## Ithrynluin (Jan 28, 2003)

I see that Bommy Tombadillo is in the lead. Poor little fella!



> Funny misspelling, that one...



I think it's funny too. It's not a misspelling however. I had a bit of fun there.


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## BlackCaptain (Jan 28, 2003)

Whats up with the Glorfindel beingn one or 2 thing? am i missing something?


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## Anamatar IV (Jan 28, 2003)

Glorfindel from the first age who slew a Balrog or Glorfindel from the third who helped Frodo and co. in FotR. Glorfindel in the first age died and was reincarnated into Glorfindel of the third.



Bombadillo here....I don't like not knowing who he is


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## Bombadillo (Jan 28, 2003)

well, i'm jasper from the netherlands... 
pleased to meet you...


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## Ithrynluin (Jan 28, 2003)

> well, i'm jasper from the netherlands...



One down, two to go!


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## gate7ole (Jan 31, 2003)

Glorfindel shouldn't belong to the list. It is stated clearly that he is the same. No X-file here.

I would choose something different: The origins of the Orcs. Probably the most complicated topic of all Middle-Earth.


PS. I expected from Nom to say that the greatest mystery is Gildor. She disappointed me


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## Confusticated (Jan 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by gate7ole _
> *
> PS. I expected from Nom to say that the greatest mystery is Gildor. She disappointed me   *


 
Indeed I would have said Gildor if I had not misunderstood ithrynluin's question!


> _ by ithrynluin_
> *Many people are annoyed even at the mention of some of these topics. So which one ticks you off the most?
> Or do you find them enjoyable and insightful every time they are discussed?*



I thought he wanted to know which X-file's discussion gets on our nerves most!
In which case it is Glorfindel because I see no mystery about it.

But if ithrynluin wants to know which mystery weighs on my mind the most - then it is Gildor... no question about it.

Sorry to disapoint, gate7ole...


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## gate7ole (Jan 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Nóm _
> *
> Indeed I would have said Gildor if I had not misunderstood ithrynluin's question!
> 
> ...


Now that I reread the thread I think you're right. Ithynluin wanted to know what X-file _irritates_ us.
Then I have to choose the Balrogs. I don't see any _magic_ in the topic, I don't find any interest, any help that it might give me to understand better the mythology. Completely useless.
If Tolkien came to me and gave me the chance to answer even a hundred questions, I wouldn't even mention this one. Others much more important would have greater priority.
To tell you the truth, before joining this forum, I didn't even now that it was such a hot subject. I hadn't even thought of it.
So, to conclude, I despise any talk about the wings.


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## BlackCaptain (Jan 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by gate7ole _
> *I would choose something different: The origins of the Orcs. Probably the most complicated topic of all Middle-Earth. *



Whats there to know? The Elves were taken captive, and tortured in Utumno until they were orcs


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## gate7ole (Jan 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MorgulKing _
> *Whats there to know? The Elves were taken captive, and tortured in Utumno until they were orcs *


Not exactly.
Tolkien actually changed his mind more than once about the subject. First he thought that the Orcs were twisted Men (and also he changed a great part of the mythology, which made this consistent). Then he simply explained their origins as simply talking beasts with no soul.
You can choose whatever you want.


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MorgulKing _
> *Whats there to know? The Elves were taken captive, and tortured in Utumno until they were orcs *



Yeah gate7ole! It's as simple as that. Why do you always have to over-complicate things?


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## gate7ole (Feb 1, 2003)

I do not complicate things. They are complicated by themselves. Now if you want to reject the later writing of the professor, then it's your choice. But you can't convince me that they are wrong, right?


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by gate7ole _
> *I do not complicate things. They are complicated by themselves. Now if you want to reject the later writing of the professor, then it's your choice. But you can't convince me that they are wrong, right? *



I was of course joking. I thought it was hilarious when MorgulKing wrote "What's there to know?" when you brought up the issue of the Orcs. That's why I said "you over-complicate things" ... sort of sarcastically to MorgulKing.


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## Eledhwen (Feb 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by gate7ole _
> *Not exactly.
> Tolkien actually changed his mind more than once about the subject. First he thought that the Orcs were twisted Men (and also he changed a great part of the mythology, which made this consistent). Then he simply explained their origins as simply talking beasts with no soul.
> You can choose whatever you want. *


The clues are there on the Fields of Cormallen. When Sauron fell, the Orcs "ran hither and thither mindless; and some slew themselves, or cast themselves in pits, or fled wailing back to hide in holes and dark lightless places far from hope." 

In the Silmarillion: Of Aulë and Yavanna, when Ilúvatar blessed the work of Aulë's hands (when he offered to destroy the Dwarves he had made) Ilúvatar said "Thy offer I accepted even as it was made. Dost thou not see that these things have now a life of their own, and speak with their own voices? Else they would not have flinched from thy blow, nor from any command of thy will."

The behaviour of the Orcs on the Field of Cormallen tells me that they at least were puppet creatures without a real life of their own. There would be two possible outcomes if the Orcs were Elves corrupted by Morgoth: 

1. Their ferocity would have survived the passing of the Ring, as their true master, Morgoth, though chained still exists as a force of malice. 

2. If the source of their malice was Sauron, then his demise would have exorcised the evil from them and they would have become, in mind at least, Elves once more.

I can see why Tolkien had problems with it. I've said elsewhere that the word 'Hobgoblin' refers to a being that contains both good 'hob=elf' and evil 'goblin=orc'; and it may have been these creatures that Tolkien thought to describe as corrupted Elves.

Thinking back to the poll this thread is about; there is an interesting article on Tom Bombadil HERE.


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## aragil (Feb 3, 2003)

I think the Field of Cormallen passage is sufficiently at odds with the rest of the works that it can safely be ignored. One of the chief characteristics of Tolkiens Orcs is that they would fight amongst eachother all the time. Hive creatures don't behave like this- in fact within the hive they are miraculously harmonious. If you disregard all the Gorbag-Shagrat episodes then you can accept the Field of Cormallen. Otherwise Orcs were sentient creatures who existed within "the law".


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## Eledhwen (Feb 5, 2003)

Orcs don't fit the 'hive' category, because 'normal' hive creatures are part of true creation and Orcs are creation corrupted by evil. Hive creatures are harmonious because they were created for good. Orcs were made/corrupted for evil purposes and it is their corrupted nature to practice that evil, even against one another - until one of the trueborn created comes along, which their puppetmaster has made them hate far more than each other.


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## Lasgalen (Feb 5, 2003)

Why do they have to be 'hive' creatures? Why not 'pack' creatures? A pack of dogs or wolves would have fighting amongst its members.

-Lasgalen


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## Eledhwen (Feb 6, 2003)

Yes, lasgalen, I think you've got it. Fighting and killing each other for supremacy, yet uniting against a common foe/prey. 

If Orcs were truly individually sentient, it wouldn't take too much thought to realise that working for Sauron was a mug's game; but they continued in the evil regime, seeking rank and power, slaying one another for the most spurious of motives. Gorbag and Shagrat may have seemed to have plans, but devoid of the true concept of fellowship those plans could never be more than words, as subsequent events showed. 

The ringwraiths were excellent examples of Sauron's corrupting influence; more terrible than any Orc. Given that Morgoth's power was far and away greater than Sauron's, it is not inconceivable that, in Middle Earth's dark years, Morgoth took Elves and corrupted them into hideousness without the need for Rings. I haven't time to find the quotes, but some of those Orcs seem to have been around for a very long time. Elvish lifespans?


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## aragil (Feb 8, 2003)

Elvish lifespans: Bolg is the best known example. Pappy Azog kicked the bucket in TA 2799, Bolg got whacked in TA 2941. Unless Orcs were in the habit of saving genetic material and later using artificial means of birth, Bolg was at least 142 at the time of his death- at which point he was still very active and healthy.
The Gorbag-Shagrat 'plans' which you earlier mention seem to be references to the Dark Years of the second Age and the 'Great Siege' which ended it. If you were so inclined, you could argue that Shagrat and Gorbag's familiarity with these times indicates that they had actually lived through and experienced the. Unfortunately, Gorbag's later statement that they are both Uruks seems to disqualify this, as Uruks weren't revealed until TA 2475. However, I believe that the 'good old times' and the 'great siege' comments were in the first draft of the text, 'uruks' was added some years later. Conceivably, when the chapter was first written Tolkien could have intended that Gorbag and Shagrat really had been alive for the War of the Last Alliance.


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