# If Deagol kept the Ring?



## Firawyn (Oct 11, 2008)

Hey guys, 

I was just pondering - do you think events would have been different if Deagol had kept the Ring, and Smeagol had never become Gollum?

Would Deagol have become "Gollum?"

Would Deagol have later lost the ring to Bilbo, or would he have been somewhere else, and someone else picked up the ring?

Thoughts?


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## YayGollum (Oct 11, 2008)

Hm. Well, I am thinking that poor Smeagol was a very unlucky victim for Sauron to have snared. He was already fairly clever and was actually interested in spelunking type things. The only bit about Deagol that we learn comes from what information the evil torturer Gandalf decided to feed the superly boring Frodo. That information only supposedly came from poor Smeagol, who people only decide to trust when he's making himself look bad, for some reason.  So, I don't have much information to go on, when it comes to guessing what Deagol would have done (if such a person ever existed). 

He most probably would have had some fun with being invisible and mischievous. He would most likely get caught and have the thing confiscated by someone more interesting, or he'd keep it a secret, like the evil thief Bilbo Baggins did. People would eventually call him weird for not aging. The One Ring would eventually get him to stay indoors and away from lights. Mayhaps he'd figure that the thing was causing these problems, but he wouldn't want to get rid of it, so he'd become some kind of hermit or some kind of mystical as well as creepy resident. Saruman or Sauron would have found him and taken the One Ring way more easilier than with poor Smeagol, who was made out of awesome.


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## HLGStrider (Oct 12, 2008)

Considering how quickly the ring creates a bond, if he had kept it and someone had tried to confiscate it, he may have turned murderer just as quickly as Smeagol to protect what was "his." Even if he were weaker and was overcome, he would have kept trying until he got it or whoever took it from him was forced to kill him or lock him up, so either way, not a great ending. 

As for the rest, we can't really know if a different bearer would've been driven to hide in a different place, but I think eventually the ring would've left Deagol even as it left Gollum simply because it was time for it to go.

Or maybe Deagol would be more tractable and instead of hiding the ring deep within a cave forever, he would have facilitated Sauron finding the ring earlier by attempting to hide in Mirkwood when the Necromancer reappeared or setting up shop in Mordor itself. We can't really know. We do know, however, that the ring tends to drive its bearer away from other people over time and also into rather unpleasant places.


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## YayGollum (Oct 12, 2008)

Wouldn't including a compulsion to stay away from other people make it harder for Sauron to find the thing? I didn't notice anyone else who had the thing avoiding people. Sauron and Isildur always had people around, the evil thief Bilbo Baggins hung out in the Shire, surrounded by nasssty hobbitses, and his goal was to hang out with a bunch of elves, the superly boring Frodo and the evil sam barely had the thing and were a bit engaged in attempting to save the world, anyways. 

I figure that Deagol would have moved away only if he became some sort of Outcast, which didn't necessarily have to happen. He could gain a great reputation as a successful thief, always having adventurer banging on his door, bringing traffic to his community. He could become some kind of creepy but respected elder type guy, or just your basic Obi-Wan Kenobi type hermit that sometimes helps people and is mostly left alone. Whether he stayed with his people or moved away to hide, he would most probably have been found before the One Ring thing got bored with him. Check out how long it stuck with poor Smeagol! 

But then again, poor Smeagol went a bit crazy and started talking to himself while hanging out in that cave. If things had gone better for Deagol, he would have grown up and become a different kind of tricksy. A social butterfly who can turn invisible. Hiding in plain sight, Sauron would be able to track him down, but he'd have lots of people to kill to get to him. Who knows?


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## Eledhwen (Oct 12, 2008)

Smeagol was determined to get the ring; so if Deagol managed to keep it he would almost certainly have had to kill Smeagol. Thus he would gain the ring with violence, making him easily digestible, evil-wise. Then it would be down to personality and intelligence. Supreme evil is not always accompanied by matching wit. Would Deagol have come clean about Smeagol's demise? Would he keep the ring secret, or would he wave it about in a "look what I've found" sort of way? Would he use it for petty crime, or would he be more of a Bilbo? Tolkien did not give us enough information about Deagol to draw safe conclusions. Either way, I think that only Gollum was naturally secretive enough to keep the ring out of Sauron's hands for all that time.


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## Firawyn (Oct 12, 2008)

Interesting points. I really do wish Tolkien had given us more to go on about Smeagol and Deagol. From the little we are told, I get the impression that Smeagol and Deagol we, if not relatives, freinds. They hung out together, so it's pretty safe to assume that they had similar personalities.

That assumption, if followed, could lead Deagol with the Ring along much the same path as Smeagol, thought anyone knows that even the best of freinds (much like Frodo and Sam) would make different choices in the same events. 

Considering that, what choices would Smeagol and Deagol have disagreed on? And what other paths could Deagol have taken?


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## HLGStrider (Oct 12, 2008)

Yay said:


> Wouldn't including a compulsion to stay away from other people make it harder for Sauron to find the thing? I didn't notice anyone else who had the thing avoiding people.





Me said:


> the ring tends to drive its bearer away from other people over time



I didn't say the compulsion to stay away, I said the tendency to be 'driven' away. If anything Smeagol is bitter that he was kicked at and pushed and rejected by his people. He didn't have a compulsion to leave, but the ring changed him in a way that wasn't attractive to those about him. 

Bilbo is a little bit of an anomaly, because you could argue that he was already "strange" before the ring due simply to his adventures, but he was definitely viewed as an eccentric Hobbit. Also the greed for the ring was slowly turning him into something Frodo found disturbing. I think that this would happen to anyone . . . Unless . . . they were able to harness the power, at least temporary, and use it to become a ruler. However, a ruler is not a position where one is "with" people. It is one where one is over them and sets themselves apart. And we never really get a chance to see how this would happen.


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## Firawyn (Oct 14, 2008)

HLGStrider said:


> And we never really get a chance to see how this would happen.



What did you mean by this? Could you clarify?


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## HLGStrider (Oct 14, 2008)

I mean that no one had the ring in a position of power for long enough that it effected them as it did Gollum. Sauron doesn't count because he and the ring are one. Isildur died before achieving much with the ring. We don't know if he would've been able to become his own dark lord, at least temporarily. You could argue that the Ring Wraith's in their earlier incarnations were sort of like this, but we don't have a lot of information about their earlier lives and the rings are slightly different. 

Though the Wraith's are an interesting case study, as their rings did, for awhile, take them from great lords of men to greater lords of men.


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## Illuin (Oct 14, 2008)

> By HLGStrider
> _Though the Wraith's are an interesting case study, as their rings did, for awhile, take them from great lords of men to greater lords of men._


 

It is interesting that Men (under the influence of the Rings) surged for a time, and became great; and were revered by their fellow kin; yet a Hobbit (i.e. Sméagol) was shunned almost immediately by his kin. His malice was recognized (and not revered) by his fellow Hobbits. It would seem that Men live by extremes in Tolkien’s world; whereas Hobbits exist more or less at a constant, and their intrinsic nature is not fully changed. It’s only their shortcomings that are exaggerated subtly by The Ring over time; but they are never fully consumed; and never pass into the shadow realm. 

As far as Déagol; my opinion (as far as Tolkien’s letters are concerned - i.e. #214 etc.) is that Déagol would have been more like Bilbo. Sméagol in various extraneous writings seems to harbor a spiteful, vindictive streak that would have been magnified with the possession of The Ring. How this would have manifested itself regarding “the big picture” is anyone’s guess. I’ll go with Gandalf’s words:

_"Pity? It was pity that stayed Bilbo's hand. Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends. My heart tells me that Gollum has some part to play yet, for good or ill before this is over. The pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many."_


I don't think Déagol would have helped the situation in the long run. Everything was meant to be.


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## Gordis (Oct 15, 2008)

Illuin said:


> It is interesting that Men (under the influence of the Rings) surged for a time, and became great; and were revered by their fellow kin; yet a Hobbit (i.e. Sméagol) was shunned almost immediately by his kin. His malice was recognized (and not revered) by his fellow Hobbits.


I think the main difference between the future nazgul and Smeagol was not _racial_, but _personality_ difference. The nazgul had been not just your average Men, they were _great men_ (or great men in the making)from the start, hand-picked by Sauron, the best he could find and approach in ME in the Mid-Second Age.


> Longevity or counterfeit 'immortality' (true immortality is beyond Ea) is the chief bait of Sauron – it leads the small to a Gollum, and *the great to a Ringwraith*.-L#212


If a ring found its way (by mistake) to someone like Bill Ferny, he would have never become a great lord of Men- because he never had the makings of one. He would have become a very dangerous criminal, maybe a leader of a band, but still petty in his heart. I simply cannot see Ferny ever caring about his followers/subjects: it was not in him. The ring doesn't give a man new personality, it only amplifies what he already had. The future Ringwraiths were most likely guys like Aragorn, or Boromir, or Eomer, but never like Bill. Sauron would not be interested to have an immortal Bill as his greatest servant: there were plenty of such like in each generation and they served him readily anyway.
Smeagol, on the other hand, got the Ring by pure chance, not by Sauron's design. His wishes were such that he didn't really need such a great Ring. He only used its simplest -default- function: invisibility. Had the Ring found its way to Smeagol's grandmother, she could have become the Great Queen of the Stoors, who knows - if she but wished greatness. But doing so, hobbit or not, she would have been consumed faster than Gollum.



Illuin said:


> It would seem that Men live by extremes in Tolkien’s world; whereas Hobbits exist more or less at a constant, and their intrinsic nature is not fully changed. It’s only their shortcomings that are exaggerated subtly by The Ring over time; but they are never fully consumed; and never pass into the shadow realm.


I think nobody's intrinsic nature is wholly changed by a Ring. Everyone does with his Ring what he wants. The difference is WHAT one wants. The more you want, the more you do; the more you do, the more you use the Ring, the faster you are consumed. And what happens is explained by Gandalf:

As far as Déagol, we know he was "sharper-eyed but not so quick and strong" as Smeagol. What were his wishes? Being more inquisitive, he would have probably gone seeking some lost treasures (quite successfully), but hardly he would have hidden in a hole under the Mountains. And that is the only thing that matters. It looks like the Mountains screened the Ring from Sauron, and screened the ring-bearer from Sauron's call. Gollum felt this call when he got out, even though he had already lost the Ring. If Deagol remained on the surface, Sauron would have found him eventually.


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