# Why do the elves decline?



## Snaga (Sep 21, 2005)

At the end of the War of the Ring, we are pretty much told that time is up for the elves, with only a few lingering in Middle Earth, and their realms are dwindling to nothing.

But would this have happened, even if the Rings of Power had never been?

Why were the elf-realms so dependent on the power of the Three? Gondolin, Nargothrond, Dorthoniel... these were never dependent upon Rings of Power, so why could the elves not sustain themselves?

Was it just a lack of numbers, because so many took the ships of Valinor? Or even, that the last remnants of the Noldor were leaving, and even the Sindar were going too, leaving only the lowly Avari?

If none of the elves had left Middle Earth after the end of the War of the Ring, could they have achieved the heights of their former realms?


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## e.Blackstar (Sep 21, 2005)

Oh, of course they could have.

But I think they let because, well, so many of the great leaders had been in Aman for so long...and they were getting sick of it. So everybody followed them...

If that made sense.


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## Mr. Underhill (Sep 21, 2005)

I disagree. The Elves had long been in decline ... their numbers depleted by their endless wars with Melkor and his servants (which of course included Sauron). The end of the Third Age brought about the Age of Men. Their numbers were far more numerous and on the rise. Although the Elves remained friendly with the ancestors of the Numenorians, they had little taste for the other races of men. The Elves realized their numbers would never again exceed those of Men, and for that matter had grown weary of Middle-Earth anyway. Even Elves such as Legolas had the longing of the sea deep within them ... by which they were to leave Middle-Earth and dwell in Aman forever with the Valar. This was the theme for them played in the Music of the Ainur. Men were to be the dominant people from this time on and The Elves knew it ...


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## Gothmog (Sep 22, 2005)

I agree with Mr. Underhill In the Sil it says


> But at the bidding of Manwë Mandos spoke, and he said: 'In this age the Children of Ilúvatar shall come indeed, but they come not yet. Moreover it is doom that the Firstborn shall come in the darkness, and shall look first upon the stars. *Great light shall be for their waning*. To Varda ever shall they call at need.


So it was in the Music that when the Sun came it was a sign that the time of the Eldar in Middle-earth was coming to an end. So the only thing the Three Rings did was to delay the inevitable end of the Eldar in Middle-earth for a short time.


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## Inderjit S (Sep 22, 2005)

The Elves decline 'really' began with the end of the First Age, and the start of the Second Age and the dominion of Men, Finrod tells Andreth that the ultimate fading of the Eldar was still 'far off' and that they still loved Middle-Earth and would remain strong and unfaded for some time to come, but that any sort of fading would be gradual and not instantaneous. However, the Rings of Power were able to 'stay' this process for a few thousand years, until the fall of Sauron and the real start of the dominion of Men in Middle-Earth, in which the Eldar finally realised their longing for the sea and the West as their war with Morgoth and his servants was finally over-Sauron was the last 'mythological' baddie, after him most of the dissensions in Middle-Earth would be over 'mannish' affairs (land, politics, power etc.) in which the Elves would play no part-any Elves who remained, Avari or Eldar would eventually fade never leave Middle-Earth, this process it is said would eventually take place in Aman too.


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## Snaga (Sep 22, 2005)

Gothmog's reply demonstrates that this decline was fated, but that describes the outcome rather than how it comes about.

It does still seem to me that the elves could maintain their realms for as long as they had the will to do so. They do not die of natural causes - and so should gradually increase in numbers. They lose some in the relatively infrequent battle of the 2nd and 3rd ages, but otherwise it is their choice to take to the sea that reduces their numbers. The elves are sad because their realms will dwindle - and so take to the Havens: a self-fulfilling prophesy!

I don't really buy the 'men were becoming numerous' line. Consider: noone but the Breelanders west of the Greyflood! Also, could other men not become more friendly to elves? Was it not possible to expect the more elf-friendly men (of Rohan and Gondor) to be the most likely to grow in numbers?


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## Ingwë (Oct 22, 2005)

I think we must look at the roots of the problems of Arda. I think that the Elves decline began when they left Valinor or even when Melkor was released by the Valar. Surely he would create problems to the free peoples. Melkor made Fëanor hate Fingolfin and Finarfin. Melkor took the Jewels from Fëanor and the Noldo followed him. That was a mistake. Indeed big mistake. The Elves who can remain in Middle earth were the Noldor and the Teleri. The Noldor lived in Valinor but they came back to the Middle earth. I like Thorondor's post in the thread 'Are you Fëanorean':


Thorondor_ said:


> I would say that it was the curse of the noldor (not the their effort to fight Morgoth per se) that brought them their ruin - and it was caused by the evil deeds of Feanor.


And I would add by the Evil deeds of Melkor. 


Snaga said:


> It does still seem to me that the elves could maintain their realms for as long as they had the will to do so. They do not die of natural causes - and so should gradually increase in numbers.


Beleriand was destroyed after the War of Wrath and the Elven realms were destroyed. They're homes were no more. But they still have homes in Valinor. They left the Middle earth and few Elves remained there. The Men became more and very powerful. Many Eldar were killed during the wars with Sauron. It reminds me of Gondor and Arnor. They decayed because there weren't enough people to dwell in there. The Elves were tired in the Middle earth. So ship by ship they left Middle earth. They just couldn't live there. 



Snaga said:


> Also, could other men not become more friendly to elves?


I think that they couldn't because the other Men fell under the shadow of the Enemy long before the years of Beor and Hador. That is in Letter 131 as far as I remember. Tolkien wrote about the first fall of the Men and the Fall of the Elves:


> Letter 131 @ The Letters of Tolkien
> So, proceeding, the Elves have a fall, before their 'history' can become storial. (The first fall of Man, for reasons explained, nowhere appears – Men do not come on the stage until all that is long past, and there is only a rumour that for a while they fell under the domination of the Enemy and that some repented.) The main body of the tale, the Silmarillion proper, is about the fall of the most gifted kindred of the Elves, their exile from Valinor (a kind of Paradise, the home of the Gods) in the furthest West, their re-entry into Middle-earth, the land of their birth but long under the rule of the Enemy, and their strife with him, the power of Evil still visibly incarnate. It receives its name because the events are all threaded upon the fate and significance of the Silmarilli ('radiance of pure light') or Primeval Jewels.


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## Thorondor_ (Oct 22, 2005)

> But would this have happened, even if the Rings of Power had never been?
> 
> Why were the elf-realms so dependent on the power of the Three? Gondolin, Nargothrond, Dorthoniel... these were never dependent upon Rings of Power, so why could the elves not sustain themselves?


Imo, the noldor realms had to fade, due to the Doom of the Noldor:
"To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well"
"And those that endure in Middle-earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as with a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after"


> If none of the elves had left Middle Earth after the end of the War of the Ring, could they have achieved the heights of their former realms?


Given the above, I doubt that.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Oct 22, 2005)

Snaga said:


> At the end of the War of the Ring, we are pretty much told that time is up for the elves, with only a few lingering in Middle Earth, and their realms are dwindling to nothing.
> 
> But would this have happened, even if the Rings of Power had never been?



I always thought it was a case of supercolossal _world weariness._ Three Ages of battling "the long defeat" (to say nothing of all the battles back in the Sil days) just wore them out psychologically! They'd had it, it was time to go home! What happened to Frodo in a few years happened to them over millennia.

Barley


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## Thorondor_ (Oct 23, 2005)

Besides the doom of the Nolodr, in HoME 10, Tolkien also reffers to the fading of the elves as due to the consuming of their hroa by their fea (this process being rather accelerated by the marring of Arda):


Of the laws and customs among the eldar pertaining to marriage and other matters related thereto: together with the statute of finwe and miriel and the debate of the valar at its making said:


> For in their early days elf-children delighted still in the world about them, and the fire of their spirit had not consumed them, and the burden of memory was still light upon them





Of death and the severance of fea and hrondo said:


> As ages passed the dominance of their fear ever increased, 'consuming' their bodies (as has been noted). The end of this process is their 'fading', as Men have called it; for the body becomes at last, as it were, a mere memory held by the fea; and that end has already been achieved in many regions of Middle- earth, so that the Elves are indeed deathless and may not be destroyed or changed. Thus it is that the further we go back in the histories, the more often do we read of the death of the Elves of old


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## Helcaraxë (Oct 26, 2005)

My guess would be that the fate of the Elves was determined by the Music of the Ainur long before the rings were created. Furthermore, their fate parallels their nature: they are bound to Arda. When the lands of Middle-Earth came under the dominion of Men, the Elves connection to those lands weakened, and their power there faded. So, they had to depart to their true land, Eldamar, where their bond with Arda was strong.


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## Firawyn (Oct 26, 2005)

I agree with Blackstar, if the elves had wanted to, they could have made a comeback. Maybe they would have never been what they once were, but as to being all gone, no way, not a chance. I think that they elves, in their wisdom, knew that it was man's time to rule middle earth, and they knmew if they stayed, people would still look to them in times of need, and not to thier deserving leaders.


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## Alatar (Oct 28, 2005)

They could have stayed but that would not change how they feel, eventually, they would lose there bodies, and fade into spirts as the ages roll by, and be powerless, or they could go to Aman and live with the Gods, it's a no brainer.


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## Helcaraxë (Oct 29, 2005)

Generally true, but bear in mind that some Sindar did indeed remain in Middle-Earth for some time afterwards.


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## Alatar (Oct 30, 2005)

And they faded intothe woods, like Gladriels prediction.


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## Voronwë (Nov 1, 2005)

There were young elves too, its not like all of the clans in middle earth were born pre-first age.


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