# Despicable Elf?



## Elenaelin (Sep 19, 2002)

I know this is a bit of a "spin- off", but I'm interested in the opinions of the five or so people who frequent these hallowed halls- Who was the most despicable elf? Even though that sound's like an oxymoron, one must admit that not all elves are perfect (crazy as it seems) Currently I'm betting on Feanor. Although Feanor was an excellent craftsman, he made several unfortunate life choices (you can't deny it!) I know that everyone here probably already is quite aware of the many faults of Feanor, but these are the ones that are at the top of my list

A- Refusing to allow the Valar to use his Silmarils for the revival of Telperion (my favorite one- curse Morgoth!) and Laurelin. All things considered- that's about as self-ish as one could get....

B- The Kinslaying...it should never of happened... Elves slaying Elves...
(I really ought to put things more into perspective- yes, i teared up at this point......)

So, any opinions? (Or am i talking to myself in a dark corner of an empty room)


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## Confusticated (Sep 19, 2002)

I dislike his sons Curufin and Celegorm more than I dislike Feanor. I think they were rotten, as was Maeglin and his father Eol. I do agree with what you say about Feanor though.


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## Elenaelin (Sep 19, 2002)

Yay- someone responded! Good point on Eol/Maeglin, but I disagree on Celegorm and Curufin- personally my stand on them is that "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree."


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 19, 2002)

Saeros. I can't stand the arrogant fool.


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## Confusticated (Sep 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Elenaelin _
> *Yay- someone responded! Good point on Eol/Maeglin, but I disagree on Celegorm and Curufin- personally my stand on them is that "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree." *



I disagree. From which tree did the apple that is Feanor fall? WOuld you say that he is like his father? I would not.

I actually like Maedhros and Maglor isn't that bad either. Misguided perhaps but certainly not rotten like C&C brothers.

PS: The way C&C treated Finrod I will not look past, or the treatment of Luthien.


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## YayGollum (Sep 19, 2002)

Woah! It looks like this Elenaelin person really likes elves! I always felt sorry for Eol. Maeglin was pretty evil, though. I didn't like Beleg because he was evil to one of my favorite characters that people love to hate (Mim). I didn't really hate Feanor or any of those stinky Oath people, I just thought that their pride teamed up with their stupidity and stubbonness messed them up more than necessary. oh well.


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## CloakedShadow (Sep 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by YayGollum _
> *Woah! It looks like this Elenaelin person really likes elves!*



No kidding...she's borderline-obssessor...I have to go to school with her!   She's a rune-writing, elvish-speaking, cloak-wearning, Tolkien Machine!


Oh yes...the post...right... I personally have not yet read the Sil yet...I just purchased the book recently and it's on my massive to-read list...but I was asked to comment...and from what I've heard, Feanor sounds rather...moronic (for lack of a better word...taking into consideratio that moronic isn't exactly one used to describe the wonderful race of Elves very often...) By then again, this is just my ignorant and naieve two-cents...


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## YayGollum (Sep 19, 2002)

Yay for having an ignorant and naive person on my side!  Yeah! They are moronic!  *hides*


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by YayGollum _
> *Woah! It looks like this Elenaelin person really likes elves! I always felt sorry for Eol. Maeglin was pretty evil, though. I didn't like Beleg because he was evil to one of my favorite characters that people love to hate (Mim). I didn't really hate Feanor or any of those stinky Oath people , I just thought that their pride teamed up with their stupidity and stubbonness messed them up more than necessary. oh well. *



LOL YayGollum,you crack me up...The noble Noldor are called "those stinky Oath people"...bwahahahaha... *faints from "over-laughing"


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## YayGollum (Sep 19, 2002)

That's what I'm here for. To make people happy.  Thanks, dude!


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## Grond (Sep 19, 2002)

Feanor was misguided and bound by the driving force of the Oath as were all of his sons. I find fault with them but nothing inherently despicable. 

Saeros was guided by simple ignorance and arrogance... still nothing terribly despicable... simply bad manners.

Eol waylaid Aredhel and bound him to be his wife but it was clear that Aredhel was not all unwilling. So he found himself a Gondolin Princess for a wife but, as they say, "Alls well as ends well!"

Now, Maeglin is another matter. He starts out being a model son to his mother. And then, driven by a desire to see something of the light and new, he and his mother flee to to Gondolin. Through him, his mother is killed (she shielded his body from the spear thrown by Eol). Maeglin then lusts after an Elf-princess who is close kin, betrays the people who adopted him as one of their own. People!!!! It doesn't get any more despicable than that. There were betrayals in Elfdom but none that led to a greater, wanton slaughter of a people and the destruction of an Empire. 

Maeglin is your Elf.


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## LúthienTinúviel (Sep 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Confusticated _
> *I dislike his sons Curufin and Celegorm more than I dislike Feanor. I think they were rotten, as was Maeglin and his father Eol. I do agree with what you say about Feanor though. *



Took the words right out of my mouth.


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## Ancalagon (Sep 19, 2002)

> I know this is a bit of a "spin- off", but I'm interested in the opinions of the five or so people who frequent these hallowed halls- Who was the most despicable elf?



Which five?


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Grond _
> *
> Saeros was guided by simple ignorance and arrogance... still nothing terribly despicable... simply bad manners.
> *



Well,these "bad manners" had quite an influence on Turin and his later actions.
It's not that I don't despise Maeglin,cause I do;I just despise Saeros more.


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## Turgon (Sep 19, 2002)

To Celegorm and Curufin I would also add Caranthir. Why that no good... money grubbing... (shakes fist)

I find the characters of Eöl and Maeglin too tragic to consider them despicable. And as for Saeros, well he does deliver one of the best lines in the Silmarillion, so I think he can be forgiven.



> 'If the Men of Hithlum are so wild and fell, of what sort are the women of that land? Do they run like deer clad only in their hair?'



It's funny because it's true...


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## Elenaelin (Sep 20, 2002)

> I disagree. From which tree did the apple that is Feanor fall? WOuld you say that he is like his father? I would not.



Apologies Confusticated (sp?)....perhaps I best Review my List of Analogies and Banal, Trite Sayings...Anyways... I do grant you Maeglin was pretty wretched...BUT I still disagree (most respectfully!) to those that hold to the side of Eol being "worse" than Feanor. Eol had never been in the presence of The Vala, saw the Trees, etc., and one would assume these would have a positive influence. Feanor, however, despite the relative ( depending on your point of view) advantage of being born/ raised in Valinor, still turned to his less- than- the-wisest-choice-ways....you know...refusing to aid the Vala (always a bad decision).... pushing his sons to swear an irrevocable oath, etc.....


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## Elenaelin (Sep 20, 2002)

> Which five?



I mean nothing by my statement, Wise Ancalagon, except that, although there are many lurkers like myself in the Sil. section, about five or so people tend to guide the threads; you, ithrynluin, Grond, Lhuneithiel (sp? most sincere apologies for any errors), Gil-Galad, and Confusticated. No offence was intended, if any was taken... oh dear.....( sees stealthy characters creeping toward residence with torches....)


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## Beleg (Jun 14, 2003)

Meaglin would be my take. The Wreckage of Gondolin is too servere to be easily forgotten, and as for Caranthir, Celegorm and Curufin, well you would expect something better from them...
They seem like rotten skum in some matters.


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## The-Elf-Herself (Jun 14, 2003)

Hmmm, well my pick is *drumroll* Caranthir! That's right Yay, I've joined the Dark Side and decided not to pick on Eol anymore! Well, actually I still loathe him, but Caranthir is worse in my opinion. When my favorite character Haleth and her people were suffering and could have really used some help, he just thought "Hm! Puny mortals!" and then conveniently didn't come to help them out it was too late. I mean, the Haladin were one of the three houses of the Edain! Good grief, just because they were way smaller and stubborner than the other two Houses doesn't excuse turning a blind eye and not helping them out. 

As for Eol, the main reason I think he's slimy is because he used enchantments to win Aredhel's heart(what happened to flowers, chocolate, sword-fighting lessons?   ). As someone who believes love is bad enough when it's genuine and unforced from both parties, this really bites in my opinion. Still, Caranthir is the more despicable elf.


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## Niniel (Jun 15, 2003)

I would sayy Celegorm and Curufin; they did what they did beacuse they were bound by the Oath, not because they really loved the Silmarils. Fëanor did some pretty bad things too; but he had made the Silmarils and poured his whole heart into them, so he had some right. And he was never sneaky, like C & C (attacking Beren from behind, ugh I hate them!).


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## HelplessModAddi (Jun 16, 2003)

Maeglin, hands down. No other Elf ever in the history of time knowingly handed a stronghold of peace and beauty into the hand of a power bent on setting all that was fair to the flame.


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## jimmyboy (Jul 1, 2003)

Well, in my opinion many of the elves are despicable. They are arrogant and too self-absorbed. They are still children of Eru, as are Men and Hobbits. Yet too many of them won't concern themselves with non-elves, and only with thier own interests. They were the firstborn, and they are gifted the way they are for good reasons, not one of which IMO is to be self-serving. The way I see it, they were to pave the way for the second born and those who follow after. Yet in the end many just lived for themselves. That's as despicable as it gets. Sure, there were exceptions, like Gil-Galad, Elrond, Legolas, and others, but they are as a race despicable, IMO.

The ones that were mentioned (Feanor and Sons, etc) are merely outstanding examples, and not exceptions, IMO.


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## YayGollum (Jul 1, 2003)

Yay for that! A very achingly cool view on elves! Pretty much the same as mine. Even though I don't like the elves that this person does. oh well.


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## Feanorian (Jul 1, 2003)

> Well, in my opinion many of the elves are despicable. They are arrogant and too self-absorbed. They are still children of Eru, as are Men and Hobbits. Yet too many of them won't concern themselves with non-elves, and only with thier own interests. They were the firstborn, and they are gifted the way they are for good reasons, not one of which IMO is to be self-serving. The way I see it, they were to pave the way for the second born and those who follow after. Yet in the end many just lived for themselves. That's as despicable as it gets. Sure, there were exceptions, like Gil-Galad, Elrond, Legolas, and others, but they are as a race despicable, IMO.



Where do you get all that from? Show me a quote where it shows in arrogance or self-absorbsion coming from the Elves??? They do more then concern themselves...they assist whenever its needed except for certain exceptions. The Elves did pave the way for the other races. When the men awoke in the far East the Dark Elves(not dark meaning evil for those who dont know just very secretive) taught them how to speak and survive as did the elves in the West of Middle Earth they in a way took the next steps after the men migrated. 

Back to the original question..I think Magelin is definitly the most despicable for goodness sakes he actually struck a deal with Morogth he basically sold his soul to the devil.


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## Arvedui (Jul 1, 2003)

Second Runner-up: Eöl
First Runner-up: Saeros
And the winner is: Maeglin

Mentioned in dispatches: C, C & C (Celegorm, Curufin & Caranthir)


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## YayGollum (Jul 1, 2003)

Ack! Yikes! Did you already explain your insane ideas that made you stick poor Eol and Saeros in there? I might have just forgotten. oh well. Those two were cool. *sniff*


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## Arvedui (Jul 1, 2003)

Eol waylaid Aredhel and bound herto be his wife. Also he had some bad sides that showed only too well when the Dwaves were brought to Menegroth
Saeros?
Well I happen to like Túrin, and Saeros didn't....

In my book, those two were not cool...


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## jimmyboy (Jul 2, 2003)

> Where do you get all that from? Show me a quote where it shows in arrogance or self-absorbsion coming from the Elves???


Feanorian, this is my general impression of the elves' overall attitude. But here is an example from the FOTR, when Bilbo is singing a song in Elrond's house:
"Nonesense, Lindir", snorted Bilbo. "If you can't distinguish between a Man and a Hobbit, your judgement is poorer than I imagined. They're as different as peas and apples."
"Maybe. To sheep other sheep no doubt appear different," laughed Lindir. "Or to shepherds. But Mortals have not been our study. We have other business."

So then, if the elves are actually concerned with others, then at least they could consider themselves shepherds and guides, which they do not. They concern themselves with other matters. They don't even know the difference between Men and Hobbits. Not only that, but they have a very condescending attitude, which IMO is not entirely justified. They like to see Men and Hobbits (which they have admitted that they don't know or understand) as mere sheep. So that tells me that elves are arrogant and self-absorbed. And I'm not just basing it off this one instance. It's the general attitude that I pick up from them.


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## The-Elf-Herself (Jul 2, 2003)

Oh I agree, a lot of elves were self-absorbed, but you really can't use that one quote from Lindir as a qualification to speak for all of the elves. I don't see the problem with that. A lot of humans are self absorbed as well. I'd be surprised if the dwarves weren't and certainly most hobbits didn't really care for business outside the Shire that much. You are free to absolutely loathe them as a race for that, but please don't just use the one quote. You said you had garnered this from a 'general attitude': please use more excerpts to illustrate what that opinion is! Sorry if I seem a little too enthused about a negative opinion of elves, for a fan of elves, but it's really refreshing to find a different viewpoint. Tell me, where else the elves were arrogant and self absorbed in any way that was never indulged in by other races?


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## YayGollum (Jul 2, 2003)

What's that about bad sides that poor Eol showed only too well when some Dwarves were brought to some place called Menegroth? I must have missed that part. oh well. Got it. I thought that most people were fans of love stories. Or maybe they just don't like the type that aren't explained enough? I don't remember reading much about that Aredhel person being especially desperate to get away. 

About the evil general attitude of elves ---> Yay! Makes all kinds of sense to me. I don't have any quotes. I just gots to wonder why some people don't get this view. Are they just such huge fans that they don't get it? They like to pay more attention to the nice the evil elves did? Instead of focusing on the evility?


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## The-Elf-Herself (Jul 2, 2003)

I have no idea. I llike to see things from all points of view, plus I just read a Discworld book, _Lords and Ladies_, that absolutely ripped apart the concepts of Tolkien elves. It was hilarious. So that gave me fresh perspective.

What I don't get is why more people just don't say, 'okay, they're elves! Not perfect beings!" Sorry to any who think so, but they have heaps of flaws and wouldn't be half as interesting if they didn't, same as any other race. I don't get this rampant love of elves/hatred of elves. The way I see it, some people seem to want to make elves seem like perfect angels and others want to dig up as much dirt on them as possible. You're both wrong! They're just _elves_. Some of them mess up! Some of them don't! They're good one and bad ones, depending on your definition of good and bad. Yes, they can be self-absorbed, but so can other races! 

Sorry about the rant, was getting fed up there.


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## jimmyboy (Jul 3, 2003)

> Are they just such huge fans [of the elves] that they don't get it?


YayGollum, this is exactly it, in my opinion. Too many of us M-E fans see the elves as perfect angels, when in fact they are neither perfect nor angels. They are made of the same stuff as everybody else, even if they are made for a particular purpose or live differently from other races.


> Tell me, where else the elves were arrogant and self absorbed in any way that was never indulged in by other races?


Elf-herself, I know of other quotes, but right now I cannot remember specifically where they are. One example is in the Sil, and is spoken by an elf king. He basically sneers at the humans, calling them "brief kings". True, they are that _in this world_, but then they move on from this world (where the elves are bound) to their special purpose, whatever that is.

There are others examples, but like I said it's just a general attitude that I see in them. And do not misunderstand me; I know it's easy to do in this case, but we were talking of despicable ELVES, and so I gave my opinion. Of course there are despicable dwarves and humans and hobbits and ents (Old Man Willow possibly...?), and honestly my general opinion is that many individuals of said races are quite despicable, if for no other reason than they are self-absorbed. But none seem more so to me, on the whole, than the elves. Maybe it's more outstanding to me with them because they are capable of such grace and and skill, and because it is more noticable because of that. The dwarves aren't too far behind them, though, as they really do seem unconcerned with anybody or anything else except their digging and their own families.

I cannot give a long list of quotes, and I really don't need to. Lindir's quote is not the only one on which I base my views. But it's a good example because it is, I believe, a kind of verbal admission by an elf concerning what many elves probably think.

All that said, I do enjoy the elves, many of them. Why? Partly because they can be very self-less and valiant. Outstanding examples are Elrond, who probably more than any other elf did the most in the cauuse against the dark enemies. Elladan and Elrohir, his sons, are good examples too. Glorfindel, Gil-galad, Strongbow, and others, are excellent examples of elves using their strengths, skills, and abilities to help others. Oh yeah, and let's not forget Legolas. He was an excellent elf, IMO. 

Again everybody, this is my opinion. If you don't agree, well, then you don't agree. And if you still need more "proof" for my opinion, then just think about it and consider why I might have that opinion. Then you can give _me_ some reasons why I might think this way.


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## The-Elf-Herself (Jul 3, 2003)

Thank you!  You fully answered my questions _and_ my rant. What you say makes sense, even though I see things from a different perspective, I can see where you're coming from and agree on certain points. I'm just peeved when people step in and say 'elves are evil' or 'elves are cool' without explaining themselves and their position.


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## YayGollum (Jul 3, 2003)

sorry if my explanation of ---> "They are evil because they're too popular!" wasn't good enough for you. oh well. I'm being evil and general about them. Of course I know that some aren't evil and popular. Yay for Feanor and Eol and Saeros! They're fun to read about! Most of the others are the types that you can find in pretty much every story. Yay for originality! And a thread to talk about how despicable the boring types are.


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## TaranisCain (Jul 19, 2003)

Caranthir... *spank*


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