# Did Morgoth sleep?



## Eriol (Aug 13, 2003)

Feanorian said this in another thread, when we were discussing whether the Númenórean army that attempted to invade Valinor could beat Morgoth's armies from the end of the First Age;



> I dont think they had a chance of binding him and even if they did get him down then they would not have anything powerful enough to hold him...unless they got his chains from the Valar.



He's got a point there -- the Númenóreans apparently could not bind Morgoth with anything strong enough to stop him. So they could never kill him, even if they destroyed every one of his minions. 

But what would happen if Morgoth got tired, or even better, slept? (I was reminded of Húrin's capture)

And the train of thought stopped there. I don't know whether Valar slept; and I don't know whether Morgoth is a special case among the Valar, since he became "almost" an incarnate.

We know that Lúthien put Morgoth to sleep, but this was an enchantment -- can we take any definite conclusion from that? I don't know.

In fact, I know almost nothing about this. What do you all think? Did the Valar sleep? Did Morgoth sleep? We could go into other bodily functions there. Did they eat?

My own opinion without any grounds is that the good Valar slept if they felt like it, and ate if they felt like it. Morgoth, and other corrupted Ainur, had to eat and sleep... but I remember in the back of my mind some sentences about these guys not sleeping. Of course, Sauron was known as "the Lidless Eye" -- is that a figure of speech or did the guy really never sleep?

Wow, a simple question with a lot of non-answers.


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## Lhunithiliel (Aug 13, 2003)

I can't be quite sure (too lazy to look for the quote  ) but I remember sth. said that the Valar, when tired, used to go to the gardens of Lorien ...and ...Wasn't this Vala the one to "provide "sweet dreams"? 

But in fact the whole idea of the Valar behaving like humans...is sometimes quite... worth wondering. 
Why should for exammple they jump, run, climb, etc.? Why trouble themselves with the "burden" of a humanoid body?


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## Eriol (Aug 13, 2003)

I remember that quote too. Perhaps the question could be better phrased. Did the Valar _have_ to sleep? Was it necessary for them? Or was it something they did just for fun, to enjoy dreams?

I think so. But Morgoth is another matter. He was much more bound to his body than the other Valar.


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## Inderjit S (Aug 13, 2003)

I must quote this oft-forgotten quote from _Problem of Ros_ (HoME 12)



> It is said indeed, Ælfwine, that the Valar slept. For they dreamt of mighty things, such as drag-queen mud-wrestling games and who would win in a fight out of Mohamed Ali and Woody Allen? Such complex things passed through their brains when at rest. For it is also said (by a Bacaradi-drinking, thong-wearing squirrel named Bob) that the first War of the Valar was indeed fought over the theft of Manwe's night-cap, for Melkor, the prince of second hand refrigerators stole his night-cap for purposes most evil (such as the flooding of various internet websites with the message 'Buy low, sell high, or your stocks go by-bye' and such evil statements and Manwe aided by the mighty Valar of war and Halloween costumes, Tulkas drove away the mighty beetles and insurance sale clerks of Melkor and traversed the mighty two-feet hillocks and reached Melkor’s mighty fortress of Universal Studios, Florida and tooketh the night-cap from his very hands.


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## Ancalagon (Aug 13, 2003)

Tulkas slept follwoing his toil in Arda with Aule. It was at this point Melkor passed under the shadow of night and departed from Valinor to begin delving the pits of Utumno. It was said of Melkor;


> But in the north Melkor built his strength, and he slept not, but watched, and laboured; and the evil things that he had perverted walked abroad, and the dark and slumbering woods were haunted by monsters and shapes of dread.*The Silmarillion*


However, this can mean one of two things; either he did not sleep, which I doubt, or that he did not let his watch upon Middle-Earth or the movements of the Valar, relax or cease. In addition, he was at this point iin his career as Arda's arch-nemesis, at his most creative! So, in as much as the Valar must rest, such as Tulkas, I somehow imagine Melkor the Morgoth being a dreamer and weaver of great plans and evils, whereby when his physical form would rest, his spirit and mind would spring alive in dreadful thought. Rather like a consciousness operating within an unconscious state.


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## Feanorian (Aug 13, 2003)

From the Valaquenta- Concerning Ulmo:



> For he kept all Arda in thought, and he has no need of any *resting-place*



Now this can refer to actual rest or him not having a true resting place, because earlier in the paragraph it says


> Ulmo is Lord of Waters. He is alone. He dwells nowhere long, but moves as he will in all the deep waters about the Earth or under the Earth





> But in fact the whole idea of the Valar behaving like humans...is sometimes quite... worth wondering.
> Why should for exammple they jump, run, climb, etc.? Why trouble themselves with the "burden" of a humanoid body?



Well they have human characteristics....or I guess in Arda the Children of Eru have the Valar's characteristics as far as physical appearence...or course they are spirits, but they can take on any form...I suppose men and Elves are also spirits like the Valar but they lack the ability to shed their bodies...especially men whose spirits are not linked to Arda. But anyways back to characteristics:



> His hair and beard are golden, and his flesh ruddy; his weapons are his hands



That is in the Sil when Tulkas is first given a physical description....this implies that yes the children of Eru and the Valar share some characteristics.....I think this also includes sleep. Although I do like this theory proposed by Eriol:



> I remember that quote too. Perhaps the question could be better phrased. Did the Valar have to sleep? Was it necessary for them? Or was it something they did just for fun, to enjoy dreams?



This seems correct because why else would there be a Vala of Dreams:


> Irmo the younger is the master of visions and dreams. In Lorien are his gardens in the land of the Valar


 and a Vala of rest Irmo's wife


> Este the gentle, healer of hurts and of weariness, is his spouse. Grey is her raiment; and * rest is her gift *



The Valar all contribute within their own 'personal' circle before the coming of the Children of Eru and it doesnt stand to reason that Eru would spawn of Valar that were only good for his children..thus giving them really nothing to do until that time. 

With my own beliefs and the evidence presented throughout this thread, I can say that I believe that yes Morogoth, Manwe, etc all of them can and sometimes even need to sleep/rest.


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## Beleg (Aug 13, 2003)

Feanorian, are you by any chance taking Inder's Quote as contextual evidence? 



> With my own beliefs and the evidence presented throughout this thread, I can say that I believe that yes Morogoth, Manwe, etc all of them can and sometimes even need to sleep/rest.



Hmm, also because in Arda, Valar took upon Ardain raiments, and have the ability to become self-carnate; that is to summon up a hroa at their own will. Gues sleep is another, essential part of the lives of the incarnates, and the Valar just picked it up along with the other incarnate habbits.


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## Inderjit S (Aug 14, 2003)

> 'Even if we had no knowledge of it,' he says, 'we could not reasonably doubt that the Valar had a lambe of their own. We know that all members of their order were incarnated by their own desire, and that most of them chose to take forms like those of the Children of Eru, as they name us. In such forms they would take on all the characters of the Incarnates that were due to the co-operation of hröa with indwelling fëa, for otherwise the assumption of these forms would have been needless, and they arrayed themselves in this manner long before they had any cause to appear before us visibly. Since, then, the making of a lambe is the chief character of an Incarnate, the Valar, having arrayed them in this manner, would inevitably during their long sojourn in Arda have made a lambe for themselves.


 _Quendi and Eldar_ 

If they were too take incarnate forms then they must have the incarnate 'desires' such as sleep, food, etc.


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## Maerbenn (Aug 14, 2003)

From 'Ósanwe-kenta' published in _Vinyar Tengwar_:


> 'The great Valar do not do these things: they beget not, neither do they eat and drink, save at the high _asari_, in token of their lordship and indwelling of Arda, and for the blessing of the sustenance of the Children.


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## Eriol (Aug 14, 2003)

I think the Valar desired to use their bodies, willingly; and therefore the desire to eat and drink and sleep is also a willing desire. "A willing desire" is an odd sentence. I guess what I mean is that they could go perfectly well without the desire, but they liked the desire itself (as opposed to the fulfilling of the desire). 

This is very different from the desires of the incarnates. They have a necessary desire; they can't avoid feeling it. It's not an option. 

And Morgoth and other evil Ainur are another category. I don't think their incarnation, being of a much more extensive nature than that of the Valar, would leave them immune to the desires of the flesh. And I just remembered that the Balrog in Moria was said to have been "awakened". Surely he must have been asleep once in a while, even if the "awakening" is a figure of speech -- else he would surely have invaded Moria before, out of boredom.


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## Feanorian (Aug 14, 2003)

> And Morgoth and other evil Ainur are another category. I don't think their incarnation, being of a much more extensive nature than that of the Valar, would leave them immune to the desires of the flesh.



I agree. This is the first time I have heard that theory. But it sounds like a great one. It makes all the sense in the world.


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## Khôr’nagan (Sep 3, 2003)

I also agree. For, even though the bodies were magically created, they were flesh and blood, and required sustainance. The Valar (I believe) could go without, however, needing only to be in the Undying Lands to be themselves undying of body. Morgoth and other evil beings were without the Undying Lands, however, and I believe that they required normal needs to keep themselves living.


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## Inderjit S (Sep 4, 2003)

Note on the Balrog being 'awakened' Tolkien comments on the possilbility of the Dwarves 'releasing him from prison' since he had already been awakened by the malice of Sauron.


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## Nautilus (Sep 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lhunithiliel _
> *But in fact the whole idea of the Valar behaving like humans...is sometimes quite... worth wondering.
> Why should for exammple they jump, run, climb, etc.? Why trouble themselves with the "burden" of a humanoid body? *



Having a body was not a luxury, but a necessity. Otherwise, they would not be able to interact with Arda. A spirit without body can't see, feel, hear etc.... it can just think for itself solely. For this reason, once they entered Arda, the Ainur had to "build" bodies for each other. Once they were Incarnates, however, they could no longer share their thoughts/communicate "telepathically", so they had to make a _lambe_ to speak to each other.

Once Incarnates, they had to sustain their bodies through eating, drinking etc, otherwise the body could "die" and put them in the embarrasing situation of having to build a new one. For the same reason, given the quote from _Quendi & Eldar_, they must have slept from time to time... or at least the bodies slept, while their mind was watching.

~Nautilus


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## Starflower (Sep 23, 2003)

> During the Valar's stay upon the Isle of Almaren, Tulkas married Nessa during a great feast that Manwë had ordained. Tulkas slept then, being weary and content, and it was then that Melkor, unaware to the Valar passed over the Walls of the Night with his host and came to Middle Earth far in the north



this is direct form the SIlmarillion, and I think it's pretty self-explanatory, the Valar do sleep. And didn't Luthien charm Morgoth to sleep when Beren was stealing the Silmaril ?


Starflower


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 23, 2003)

So the Ainur had need of sleep, but not food, as the Osanwe - Kenta quote shows. Why this distinction though? The body needs sleep when it is weary after great labour. But shouldn't it also require food and drink for the same purposes? Why would they sleep but not eat?


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## Drashkael (Feb 19, 2018)

Melkor also slept during the Years of the Trees.

From the Timeline of Arda (first entry in YT):
"Pre-1000 Pre-9582 Melkor sleeps in Utumno. Oromë hunts throughout Middle-earth. Melkor raises the Hithaeglir to hinder his efforts."

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Timeline

Tulkas also slept when he became weary.

I personally assume they could sleep, but they didn't had to, unless they were incarnated (in material form) or to restore their powers after great tasks.
I also like to think that, except the example above (after he completed Utumno and its Host) and when he was enchanted by Lúthien, Melkor didn't actually spend his time sleeping and that is another reason why his power didn't regenerate and was eventually spent. That and pouring most of it in his evil servants and schemes...


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