# The One Ring - invisibility - Tom B



## Brent (Jan 4, 2002)

*The Ring - not being seen - Tom B*

THE ring of Power makes you invisible. I've had an arguement that old Tom B was NOT a Maia because when he put the ring on he remained visible and was therefore immune to its power, (Whilst Gandalf etc felt the power of the Ring) unlike everyone else.
Me thinks this is no arguement at all. I suggest that because of their nature the ring would not render a Maia invisible.

Consider
Sauron the Great wore the ONE RING (TM) during his attack on Eregion and the battles of the Last Alliance. He's in combat with Elendil the tall (heavy opponent) Gil Galad (High king of the Noldor - rather deadly I would suspect) and finger cutter Isildur, so I suggest that a good tactical move for any Dark Lord would be to render oneself invisible for the duration of the encounter. Since our friends had a hack at him me thinks its safe to say he was there for all to see - with a ring that makes you invisible - hmm

Any thoughts on this ONE Ring*(TM) forum members.


*ONE RING is the Trademark of Sauron Enterprises (Overseas) Incorporated (a division of Dark Lord Enterprises LLC), a Caymans Island Corporation, used under licence, all rights reserved.
Sauron Enterprises will vigourously protect its intellectual property rights - this means YOU hobbit !!
Always the shadow grows anew !!

Sauron Enterprises is represented by Dewey, Cheatham & Howe attorneys to the dark and disembodied, no work refused.


----------



## Snaga (Jan 4, 2002)

Interesting point.

I suspect that Gil-galad would have been able to see Sauron anyway, as the High Elves could see in the real and wraith worlds. But also a big part of his power was in his presence, and the fear he could induce. I think this would diminuish if he was invisible.


----------



## pgt (Jan 4, 2002)

Yes very interesting point. I agree w/ your logic that he was there to be seen and cleary was wearing the ring and can't justify why he didn't go stealth at a crucial moment...

Remember the ring had NO affect on Tom who seemed to consider it a mere trinket.

Were there not lesser and greater or junior/senior Maia?

While we are sure the ring would have had an affect on someone like an Elrond or Gandalf, I'm not sure that it's entirely clear it would have conferred invsibility per se (see my post on dwarvish rings from the Ring Function thread).


----------



## Lantarion (Jan 4, 2002)

Welcome, Brent! 
This may sound totally movie-ish, and the LotR probably doesn't even back it up, but in the movie I recall that Sauron wore the Ring over heavy gloves. This could, and prob. is, a crock of the story made up by PJ; but it's an interesting little glitch, that cannot be answered for certain as so little is actually known of the physical power of the One Ring. It might be that Sauron could still tap into the 'stored' power in the Ring, but not become invisible because of the glove. So perhaps the Ring must be in contact with the finger itself to render the wearer invisible..
And it is obviously arguable as to what Tom is; I personally think he was some kind of Maia, but a strange sort that would be better classified as a 'nature spirit'. So perhaps he was a more powerful Maia, possibly sent in secret by Yavanna (ie. only Eru knew of him) when M-e was first created. This might answer the enigma that Tom was there before the first Elves and Men came. Soo, he might be more powerful, and with more 'willpower' than a normal Maia because his mission is to harmonize Nature as best he can, without interfering. I see many similarities with Bombadil's philosophy and Taoism; all that, 'just letting things pass by', and letting Nature work itself out. But perhaps Yavanna had forseen that evil things would arise in M-e, even after the Fall of Beleriand, and that Nature itself should be spiritually upheld by a powerful 'spirit'. This theory might seem a bit strange, because any being charged with such a dire mission would not be so merry and care-free. But I think that, as I said, Tom is not exactly a Maia, or a special kind of Maia (perhaps 'wrought' by Aule?) who only subconcsiously upholds his mission, and needs only to Be to fulfill his deed.
Hmm, strayed a bit there..  But welcome again.


----------



## pgt (Jan 4, 2002)

I recall Sauron was already some sort of shape shifter originally. I don't have a clue on the glove thing. I completely agree that the ring allowed him to tap into or regain power since he's after it. (Also having it prevents other from destroying it!) In fact other than the movie I have no real idea what his stature or form was was at either: 

A) the last battle of the alliance (he was a veritable 'giant' in the movie). I could only he was dressed in armor for battle but beyond that ...

or 

B) during the war of the ring when had again 'assumed form' (when Pippin saw him but didn't describe him). At this juncture, personally, I always had a vague image of the emperor from Star Wars.

Ideas?


----------



## Gandalf 2058 (Jan 4, 2002)

I think that the one ring didn't turn Bombadil invisable or Sauron invisable was because they knew how to use the power of the ring, and could weild it. When anyone else (hobbit or man) would try to use it, they couldn't weild it because it was to powerful. Only the most powerful could fully weild it.


----------



## Brent (Jan 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Gandalf 2058 _
> *I think that the one ring didn't turn Bombadil invisable or Sauron invisable was because they knew how to use the power of the ring, and could weild it. When anyone else (hobbit or man) would try to use it, they couldn't weild it because it was to powerful. Only the most powerful could fully weild it. *



Ah yes BUT if your in combat with a bunch of Numenoreans then it would be a good idea to go "stealth" as one poster puts it.

I don't swallow the "glove" arguement it doesn't seem to fit, I think the wraith world arguements concerning Maia better. Also remember that Sauron is NOT like Gandalf and the other wizards. Tolkien says that the wizards are indeed encased in flesh and subject to the same weakness as men, Sauron merely takes on a form.


----------



## Ithrynluin (Nov 22, 2003)

Why do you think the One Ring, when worn, makes those of smaller stature invisible, but not those who are greater? Do you think perhaps the greater ones (like Maiar) can choose whether to become invisible or not (when wearing the One Ring)?

Do you think this side effect was devised by Sauron himself upon forging the ring? If so, for what reason?

Like others in this thread have said, it would have been very convenient for Sauron to be able to 'go into invisible mode' at such crucial instances as the Battle of the Last Alliance or when he was captured by Ar-Pharazon.



> *by Variag of Khand*
> I suspect that Gil-galad would have been able to see Sauron anyway, as the High Elves could see in the real and wraith worlds.



For some reason, I doubt even the High-Elves were able to see someone who was invisible on account of wearing the One...I can't exactly explain why I think so... On a side note, Gil-galad is not a High Elf...

I also disagree with Lanty's glove argument. It just seems a little too far-fetched somehow...


----------



## Inderjit S (Nov 22, 2003)

In Isildur's manuscripts he claims that Sauron had a "black hand", that burnt like fire, and killed Gil-Galad. Gollum makes a similair statement. (He has four fingers on his Black Hand.)

Tom was able to remain visible when he wore the ring because the ring had no effect on him, he didn't think much of it, wheras Gandalf, Saruman and Sauron, as well as others did think a lot of it and they would have been corrupted by it.


----------



## Gildor (Nov 24, 2003)

Invisibility seems to be the least of the Ring's powers and the only one that is usable by the mortal beings who we see put it on in the book. It seems likely that this lesser effect is discarded or overrridden when someone is able to harness the Ring's greater powers, which have more to do with dominating by one's physical and mental presence than they do with hiding or concealment. It is also arguable that someone of greater stature would not _want_ to be invisible even in battle, as when wielding the full power of the Ring they would see themselves as being invincible. Even if he could have chosen to disappear, Sauron may easily have fallen prey to overconfidence...seeking to strike awe and terror into his enemies with his physical might, he made himself vulnerable.

As far as the Ring being in the hands of a powerful being other than Sauron, I think the very nature of the Ring would make that person even _more_ visible, especially to Sauron himself. If Gandalf or Galadriel had put on the Ring, they would have become a beacon of power that could probably not be cloaked or concealed by any means. On the other hand, Bombadil seems to be so disconnected from the other powers in Middle Earth that in his hands the Ring has no power at all. 


> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> * On a side note, Gil-galad is not a High Elf...*


On another side note, Gil-Galad was the last high king of the Noldor and was the son of Fingon, most definitely making him a High Elf.


----------



## Ithrynluin (Nov 24, 2003)

Welcome to the forum, Gildor!



> *Originally posted by Gildor*
> On another side note, Gil-Galad was the last high king of the Noldor and was the son of Fingon, most definitely making him a High Elf.





> _The Silmarillion: Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor_
> These were the three kindreds of the Eldalië, who passing at length into the uttermost West in the days of the Trees are called the Calaquendi, Elves of the Light. But others of the Eldar there were who set out indeed upon the westward march, but became lost upon the long road, or turned aside, or lingered on the shores of Middle-earth; and these were for the most part of the kindred of the Teleri, as is told hereafter. They dwelt by the sea or wandered in the woods and mountains of the world, yet their hearts were turned towards the West. Those Elves the Calaquendi call the Úmanyar, since they came never to the land of Aman and the Blessed Realm; but the Úmanyar and the Avari alike they call the Moriquendi, Elves of the Darkness, for they never beheld the Light that was before the Sun and Moon.





> _Index of names to the Silmarillion_
> Calaquendi - Elves of the Light', those Elves who lived or had lived in Aman (the High Elves).





> _The History of Middle-Earth XI: The War of the Jewels; Quendi and Eldar_
> The Quenya forms were Kalaquendi and Moriquendi. [color=sky blue]The Kalaquendi in Quenya applied *only* to the Elves who actually lived or had lived in Aman[/color]; and the Moriquendi was applied to all others, whether they had come on the March or not. The latter were regarded as greatly inferior to the Kalaquendi, who had experienced the Light of Valinor, and had also acquired far greater knowledge and powers by their association with the Valar and Maiar.



The terms 'Calaquendi' and 'High-Elves' are interchangeable.

Gil-galad may indeed be greater than the children of non-High-Elven parents, but he himself cannot be called a High-Elf. He was born in Beleriand and had never lived in Aman. 

Or is there some passage somewhere (that I am unaware of) that states that the children of High-Elven parents are automatically High-Elves themselves?


----------



## WizardMagus (Nov 26, 2003)

I was personally under the impression that the son of a High Elf is a High Elf, but that's because I think of High Elves as a race, rather than a specific group of people. *shrug*

I don't see Tom Bombadil as a Maiar. Too many things about him don't really check out. I think of him as a part of the actual world, created at the same moment, and so he was above such things of men, like the One Ring. But that's just my feeling.

As for Sauron, he lost his physical body when Numenor was swallowed into the sea. Therefore, he already WAS a spirit during the time of the Last Alliance. When a spirit, who is already invisible, wears a Ring, what could possibly happen? My thought is that because Sauron materialized himself into a somewhat physical form in order to battle, that would negate the effects of the Ring.

The real argument is that Sauron is the master of the Ring. He made it himself. He would logically have complete control of it. End of story.


----------



## Inderjit S (Nov 27, 2003)

Gil-Galad was not the son of Fingon, but of Orodreth son of Angrod. 

Here are two essays I wrote about it:

Finweans That Never Were 

Whose Gil-Galad's Daddy? 

Sauron didn't lose his physical body in the fall of Numenor, he lost the ability to adopt a fair form. 

Visit this thread, The Last Mortal Contest for more information. 

Sauron was *always* a "spirit" since he was a Maia.


----------



## Lantarion (Nov 27, 2003)

LOL I can't believe I actually wrote that.. My only excuse is that I was young and naïve!  

Hm, anyway I would almost agree with the theory that Maiar would not turn invisible if they put on the Ring. 
Sauron is a Maia. He 'poured' much of his 'soul' (i.e. his Valinorean spirit) into the Ring. But if it is the same essense that he is composed of, why should it have any side-effects? Because that is, as I see it, what the invisibility of the One Ring is. The true purpose of it is to greatly enhance the Valinorean stature of a Maia when in corporeal form. If the wearer/bearer is of lesser Valinorean stature than a Maia (e.g. Frodo, Gollum), then the Ring will produce solely side-effects (hunger for power after long exposure, invisibility). 
I believe that if Gandalf had worn the Ring, he wouldn't have become invisible. So in that sense it is one argument for Tom _being_ a Maia; but if the above theory was true, then it would only prove that Tom had a similar (probably even more powerful) essence to that of a Maia's.


----------



## laurelindorenan (Dec 3, 2003)

Yes, I agree with the comments made. Also, I get ths feeling that after being, like, mega-evil for a while, Sauron might be a bit less than a real solid being. Do you see where I'm going with this? Sorry to go back to the movie, but maybe his soul, or whatever was just inhabiting a body. I don't know, I just think it can't be good for your health. 

I am puzzled as to why the ring has no effect on Tom Bombadil. Is it just his good nature repelling the evil? I don't know, you lot figure it out...


----------



## Lantarion (Dec 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by laurelindorenan_
> Sorry to go back to the movie, but maybe his soul, or whatever was just inhabiting a body. I don't know, I just think it can't be good for your health.


How is that going back to the movies? 
And you're right, Sauron's Maia-essense is only inhabiting some vague corporeal form while he's in Arda.


> I am puzzled as to why the ring has no effect on Tom Bombadil. Is it just his good nature repelling the evil? I don't know, you lot figure it out...


Um, well we've had quote a lot of arguments already.. Read through those and make up your mind. 
And that's not a bad theory either, it's really basic but who's to say that Tolkien didn't mean for it to be exactly that fundamental?


----------



## laurelindorenan (Dec 4, 2003)

I was referring to the movie because it looked like Sauron was walking around in a big suit of armour thing. It kind of looked custom made, so thats kind of what I meant. And looking on the Tom Bombadil thing, I have satisfied my want for knowledge. Thanks for asking.


----------



## The PETER (Dec 6, 2003)

I believe that the reason Tom Bombadill could see Frodo with the Ring is simply that his willpower is too strong. The side-effect (good argument) is, in my opinion, only a trick that effects the weak-minded (maybe the wrong word, but I can't find any better). Do you see my point?


----------



## Lantarion (Dec 6, 2003)

I do PETER, and it's a lot like the Maia-theory, except with willpower instead of Maia-essense.


----------



## Úlairi (Dec 8, 2003)

My lord, how long has it been? My first post in answer to debate! And in my specialty, Ring Lore. I made a thread a long time ago, it was my _magnum opus_ and it had everything and anything to do with this discussion. The textual evidence was compelling, if only I could remember it!

In answer to the post.

There are only two people that have power above and beyond that of a Hobbit that we see wear the Ring, and remarkably, they never become invisible! How could this be possible? I argued a long time ago that the invisibility induced by the Ring upon a bearer was quite simply a devised mechanism of the Ring created by none other than Sauron himself. The invisibility is in fact a mere result of something far greater, the ability of the Ring to bring its bearer into the spirit realms that higher beings exist in. Bodies are mere encapsulations of the spirit in all of Tolkiens books. The invisibility occurs when any bearer that is mortal wears it. Why? The Gift of Men of course, mortality. In theory if an Elf possessed it they would not turn invisible. I also argued that invisibility was an excellent indication that a person who wore, when turned invisible, was a compelling indication that they had neither the strength nor will to possess it. You're argument about Tom Bombadil is valid, according to Tolkien he is the dying spirit of the English countryside. I had a proof that Tom was a Maia some while back, but I'd need to dig it up, like most of my old posts. 

We know that Tom isn't Valar, as they weren't allowed to go to Middle-earth in those times, which is why the sent their minions. You're argument is an indication that he isn't Maia. There is reference to other spirits in the Music of the Ainur as far as I recall, but I haven't read the books for quite some time, and I don't have them with me. Ah, now I remember! Does Frodo suggest that the Ring should stay with Bombadil??? Answer me that, and I'll see if I can remember the proof in full. Give me Bombadil's relpy to that question if it exists.


----------



## Rangerdave (Dec 8, 2003)

Why and how the Ring confers invisibility is without doubt the more problematic of the unanswerable riddles to be found in Professor Tolkien’s masterworks. But I believe that if we all put our hypothetical noses to the imaginary grindstone, that we can produce a valid albeit unprovable theory as to the power of the One Ring.

First I would like to open with a quote that I am sure you will all recognize.


> Now the Valar took to themselves shape and hue; and because they were drawn into the World by love of the Children of Ilúvatar, for whom they hoped, they took shape after that manner which they had beheld in the Vision of Ilúvatar, save only in majesty and splendour. Moreover their shape comes of their knowledge of the visible World, rather than of the World itself; and they need it not, save only as we use raiment, and yet we may be naked and suffer no loss of our being. Therefore the Valar may walk, if they will, unclad, and then even the Eldar cannot clearly perceive them, though they be present.


We know that if they wish the Valar can move invisible to all eyes: we also know that the Valar still exist while unseen. It is my theory that the Valar and Maiar only appear “visible” to the Children of Ilúvatar by choice rather than by nature; therefore the Ainur, either Vala or Maia, must exist primarily on a plane of existence other than that occupied by the denizens of Middle Earth.
Since Sauron was of the Maia, he would therefore have the power to shift his being between these differing planes of existence. As we all know, Sauron endowed the One Ring with the greater portion of his native being. Sauron split himself into two separate and distinct parts. The thinking, malicious mind remained as what we know as Sauron, while the unthinking natural part of Sauron’s being is now the Ring. Or to put it another way, the Ring is not only a creation of Sauron, but rather the Ring is a piece of Sauron and thereby maintains the native abilities of a Maia. 

Now that we have a basic understanding of what the Ring is, we can better investigate how it works. It is my belief that when worn, the Ring confers upon the wearer the native powers of a Maia but not the knowledge or skill to control these abilities. I feel certain that if one could wear the ring long enough, and he or she was of sufficient will to resist the innate evil of Sauron, he or she would eventually come to be able to remain visible by choice as well as master the incredible power that is maintained within the Ring. 
This explains why owners of the Ring perceive a “clouded” reality while wearing it. Elves, Men, Hobbits, Dwarves etc; are physical bodies and are tied to Middle Earth while the live. (Elves even after) They simply cannot exist on two separate planes simultaneously: therefore they become mired between the two, unable to perceive either clearly.


This leaves us with the question of good old Tom. I have always felt that Tom is to Middle Earth as a whole, as Ents are to trees. Ents are essentially sentient/autonomous tress; Tom therefore is essentially the physical embodiment of the spirit of Middle Earth. Naturally the Ring would have no effect on Tom because the power that it contains does not exist on his plane of existence. Saruman’s fire-pits and Ted Sandyman’s mills have more power to harm Tom than anything the Ring is capable of. As for the question of Tom being able to see Frodo even after Frodo dons the Ring is part of this same concept. The Ring has now power to effect Tom therefore, it cannot delude him either.









I realize that this theory is simple at best and still is in need of refinement, but I believe that it is supportable. I invite any and all of you to help me to more fully develop this concept, or conversely, to present any arguments against it.


Thank you for your time
RD


----------



## Ithrynluin (Dec 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *
> We know that Tom isn't Valar, as they weren't allowed to go to Middle-earth in those times, which is why the sent their minions. *



I don't think it was a matter of 'not being allowed to ME', rather there was no need for the Valar themselves to get involved in the affairs of Elves and Men. To the War of Wrath they sent Eonwe against Morgoth. It is dubious whether there were any Valar there - certainly none are mentioned. And against Sauron they sent 'lesser' (though still great) spirits of the same order.

P.S.: Great post, RD.


----------



## Lantarion (Dec 8, 2003)

Fantastic idea there RD. 
I'd just like to add that the primary purpose of Sauron creating the Ring of Power was to enhance his own powers. Otherwise it would seem completely useless for a Maia to store most of their power and energy into something. I believe that, by somehow manipulating the new artificial 'carrier' of his Maia-essense (the Ring), Sauron was able to enhance his own powers simply by wearing the Ring.

I also really liked Ulairi's idea that the Ring would have a sort of 'burgular alarm' or mechanism that would render anybody besides Sauron invisible to the Seen world, but far clearer to the Unseen (i.e. Sauron would perceive that person when they put on the Ring). Consequently the _Ulairi_ D) or Ringwraiths were able to better perceive or sense Frodo when he wore the Ring or when Frodo contemplated using it (e.g. when the hobbits hid beside the road a Nazgûl almost spotted them, and on Amon Sûl). 
At least that's what I gathered from the first part of your post above, Ulairi. 

Hehe ithryn that has always bothered me aobut the War of Wrath.. The term "host of the Valar" is used many times, but it is not explicitly said that the Valar were there!  But I have always assumed so, because the Angainor was brought to Melkor again; and I suppose I've always seen a Vala holding it or fastening it, but it isn't certain by any means. 

And also concerning Ulairi's words quoted by ithrynluin, an argument which I have often maintained is that Tom Bombadil might have been either sent into Arda the moment it was ready, or that Tom was 'sculpted' as a part of Arda, and did not need to 'descend' into it as he was already of it. These I believe in, because Tom does say that he saw Melkor coming into Arda (and melkor was supposedly the first being to set foot into Arda).


----------



## Úlairi (Dec 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rangerdave _
> *Since Sauron was of the Maia, he would therefore have the power to shift his being between these differing planes of existence. As we all know, Sauron endowed the One Ring with the greater portion of his native being. Sauron split himself into two separate and distinct parts. The thinking, malicious mind remained as what we know as Sauron, while the unthinking natural part of Sauron’s being is now the Ring. Or to put it another way, the Ring is not only a creation of Sauron, but rather the Ring is a piece of Sauron and thereby maintains the native abilities of a Maia.*



First of all thanks for all the kinds words, Lantarion, you pretty much nutted it out.  Alright RD, what you have presented here is extremely interesting. You're moving into the territory that I was before I left, the sentience of the Ring, which is a fantastic debate, but I do not want to steer the course of the discussion to my own vantage points. But what the heck, I'm gonna do it anyway!  You said the Ring was unthinking, although I have no real tangible proof in my defense at this current point in time, I can certainly say that the Ring has perception. It 'knows', even if if it is only on the most subliminal levels of cognizance. I don't believe that Sauron could 'choose' which parts of his being to endow the Ring with, but again that is a matter of debate. Wait, I'll get my book!!! 



> _Letters of JRRT, Letter #131 to Milton Waldman_
> *"But to achieve this he had been obliged to let a great part of his own inherent power (a frequent and very significant motive in myth and fairy-story) pass into the One Ring. While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'. Unless some other seized it and became possessed of it. If that happened, the new possessor could (if sufficiently strong and heroic by nature) challenge Sauron, become master of all that he had learned or done since the making of the One Ring, and so overthrow him and usurp his place....* Also, so great was the Ring's power of lust, that anyone who used it became mastered by it; it was beyond the strength of any will (evern his own) to injure it, cast it away, r neglect it."*



*Skipped text.

This is what really interests me here. His power was 'enhanced' by the power of the Ring, and although one could argue because the Ring was the master of the other 19, we are not really given a true explanation of what is exactly enhanced. Now, RD argued that the Ring and Sauron were one, and I agree as Tolkien says it himself, but this has been the proverbial thorn in my side ever since I started reading Tolkien. How can enhancement occur if the Ring and Sauron are merely parts of one being, the original Sauron??? I really don't believe it is possible unless the will was greater, which is what the quote also says. But wait, if the will is greater then the equation is unbalanced and the Ring must therefore have an inherent 'nature' of its own!!! ! Tolkien mentions this too many times, although it is only a hint and really sub textual, I believe that the Ring is a sentient being, as it is constantly referred to being a separate part of Sauron.

Another argument for my case is indeed that the new possessor of the Ring is indeed endowed with the knowledge of Sauron's doing since its creation. If the Ring is merely will itself, then how can one make a connection to the mind of Sauron unless the Ring is partially mind itself?? Hmmmm, interesting. Alright, time for another letter.



> _Letters of JRRT, Letter #246 to Mrs Eileen Elgar_
> *"One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position. It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession,....If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him forever. But the Ring and all its worksm would have endured. It would have been the master in the end."*



Hmmmm, interesting. Well, does Tolkien explain why the Ring endures??? No, of course he doesn't, and there's the thorn. If the Ring doesn't die with Sauron then there is only one possible explanation, there is a part of the Ring that is indeed cognizant, that it is indeed a partially sentient being. Now, I'm nt going to say that the Ring had an agenda of its own, that's absolute absurdity. However, we know that the Ring could become greater than its master, potentially. The Ring is Sauron, but perhaps not in the way we first imagined it. The quote says that *the Ring's works* would endure. Would dominate, would conquer. I don't believe there is anymore to explain. While Sauron exists the Ring has no mind except that of its master. But it endures even when he is gone, and that is Ring Sentience Theory. 



> _Originally posted by Rangerdave _
> *Now that we have a basic understanding of what the Ring is, we can better investigate how it works. It is my belief that when worn, the Ring confers upon the wearer the native powers of a Maia but not the knowledge or skill to control these abilities. I feel certain that if one could wear the ring long enough, and he or she was of sufficient will to resist the innate evil of Sauron, he or she would eventually come to be able to remain visible by choice as well as master the incredible power that is maintained within the Ring.
> This explains why owners of the Ring perceive a “clouded” reality while wearing it. Elves, Men, Hobbits, Dwarves etc; are physical bodies and are tied to Middle Earth while the live. (Elves even after) They simply cannot exist on two separate planes simultaneously: therefore they become mired between the two, unable to perceive either clearly.*



Yeah, interesting, but I tend to disagree. Sorry RD. Here's why.



> _The Lord of the Rings: FOTR: In the House of Tom Bombadil_
> *"'Hey there!' cried Tom, glancing towards him with a most seeing look in his shining eyes.. 'Hey! Come Frodo, there! Where be you a-going? Old Tom Bombadil's not as blind as that yet. Take off your golden ring!"*



Now, according to your theory RD you said *no one* can exist in two planes. I believe I can disprove this through contradiction. Let's say you are correct, and Frodo at that point is indeed 'mired' between the realms. Tom can still see him. Therefore he must be 'mired' if he is to exist physically as well. However, he 'chose' to remain physical, and cannot exist in two planes at once. Therefore Tom cannot be 'mired' if he has chosen to be physical, and your theory is incorrect. However, as the 'nature' of Bombadil is unknown, perhaps your theory still bears weight. 



> _Originally posted by Rangerdave_
> *This leaves us with the question of good old Tom. I have always felt that Tom is to Middle Earth as a whole, as Ents are to trees. Ents are essentially sentient/autonomous tress; Tom therefore is essentially the physical embodiment of the spirit of Middle Earth. Naturally the Ring would have no effect on Tom because the power that it contains does not exist on his plane of existence. Saruman’s fire-pits and Ted Sandyman’s mills have more power to harm Tom than anything the Ring is capable of. As for the question of Tom being able to see Frodo even after Frodo dons the Ring is part of this same concept. The Ring has now power to effect Tom therefore, it cannot delude him either.*



Perhaps he exists on a different plane, but we only know of two, so, for now, I believe my argument still stands.


----------



## Saermegil (Dec 11, 2003)

I don't think Bombadill was a Maia. I think he was another creature designed and created by Illuvatar's mind and only He knows what he is.He may be one of those creatures that entered Arda along with the Valar. I think the race of Tom Bombadill is something that is never to be found out. I think the author says somewhere that he himself didn't know what was the race of Tom Bombadill. 

Now in the matter of the ring I think that it did not affect Bombadill because he was not tempted or corrupted(or whatever) by it. If he had, I don't know if he would become invisible but his reactions would be verydifferent.
i short, I think it doesn't affect him because he doesn't care about it


----------



## Ithrynluin (Dec 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Saermegil _
> *I don't think Bombadill was a Maia. I think he was another creature designed and created by Illuvatar's mind and only He knows what he is.*



I agree. 



> _The History of Middle-Earth X: Morgoth's Ring; Commentary to the Athrabeth Firnod ah Andreth_
> According to the Ainulindalë there were five stages in Creation. a. The creation of the Ainur. b. The communication by Eru of his Design to the Ainur. c. The Great Music, which was as it were a rehearsal, and remained in the stage of thought or imagination. d. The 'Vision' of Eru, which was again only a foreshowing of possibility, and was incomplete. e. The Achievement, which is still going on.
> The Eldar held that Eru was and is free at all stages. This freedom was shown in the Music by His introduction, after the
> arising of the discords of Melkor, of the two new themes, representing the coming of Elves and Men, which were not in His first communication. [color=sky blue]He may therefore in stage 5 introduce things directly, which were not in the Music and so are not achieved through the Valar.[/color] It remains, nonetheless, true in general to regard Ea as achieved through their mediation.
> ...



This passage reinforces the opinion that Bombadil can't be categorized into any of the existing 'species'. I believe he was one of these 'additions' and was created by Eru himself, not by the Valar.


----------



## Úlairi (Dec 11, 2003)

I'm still waiting on that passage I requested.


----------



## Arvedui (Dec 12, 2003)

Old Tom is not a Maia:
_Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, # 19_


> Do you think Tom Bombadil, the spirit of the (vanishing) Oxford and Berkshire countryside, could be made into the hero of a story?


 I think that the most correct answer to who Tom Bombadil is, can be found in _The Lord of the Rings:_


> He is.


----------



## Lantarion (Dec 12, 2003)

Hahaha! LOL Nice move Arvedui!


----------



## Úlairi (Dec 12, 2003)

Hehehe, nice one. I wonder if anyone's going to argue against Ring sentience, Grond certainly got pretty annoyed with the idea when I first conceived it.


----------



## Gildor (Dec 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Inderjit S _
> *Gil-Galad was not the son of Fingon, but of Orodreth son of Angrod. *



I see. That's the last time I'll believe anything I read in the Silmarillion.  

I think Gil-Galad is entitled to be called a High Elf, as he is of that direct lineage. In my interpretation, High Elf (or Light Elf) applies to all of those who have dwelt for a time in the light of the Trees; the Vanyar, the Noldor, and the Teleri who answered the summons and completed the journey to Aman. It is that distinction that sets them apart both racially and culturally from the Grey and Dark Elves. Those of High Elven blood remain High Elves...though they may never have personally lived in Aman, they still retain that heritage.


----------



## Master Peregrin (Jan 17, 2004)

*They could have held him down.*

why would Sauron bother fighting close combat with three guys he had no hope against. Perhaps he was indeed invisible, but still somehow percieveable, like the Nine could percieve the One's wearer when he was invisible. Someone might have even bumped into him. Then they could have pinned him down while Isildur sliced off his finger.


----------

