# The deep history of Sauron and Saruman



## CWOBrien (Mar 21, 2020)

Has anyone ever though about the history between Sauron and Saruman before the events at the end of the Third Age.

As Mairon and Curumo respectively, they were both affiliated with the Valar Aule. As such, surely they must have known each other in their youth? Might this have played a part in the Valar's decision to send Curumo (later Saruman) to Middle Earth to lead the free people's against Sauron?

Might it also have played a part in their later alliance?


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## Olorgando (Mar 28, 2020)

One thing that appears to remain unclear, as far as I know, is when "exactly" Sauron switched his allegiance from Aulë to Melkor. As he is called in origin a *Maia* of Aulë, I would assume it would have to had been after the (undifferentiated) Ainur of the Music descended into Arda to form it, at which point the distinction between Valar and Maiar seems to have been made (though this could have been a later construct for the benefit of the Eldar). But, just as an example, had he already joined Melkor before the destruction of the first primeval lights of Middle-earth, Illuin and Ormal? Was he perhaps one of Melkor's "secret friends and spies among the Maiar" mentioned in Chapter 1 of the Quenta Silmarillion? Or was he "impressed" at Melkor's being able to do so much damage in his assault on the Valar, which basically ended with the latter's rather ignominious departure to the uttermost west of Arda, to Valinor in Aman, that he switched his allegiance?

What part any of the later (Third Age from ca. the year 1000) Istari played in the Valar's war on Morgoth after Oromë had found them (though Melkor had done so earlier) is not recorded. That Sauron was his lieutenant in command of his secondary fortress of Angband in the north-west of Middle-earth as a guard against Valinor, is (and that it was not as thoroughly destroyed as was Melkor's primary stronghold of Utumno).
After the Eldar had removed to Valinor under the guidance of the Valar, through the three Valinorean Ages of the captivity of Melkor there until the destruction of the Two Trees, again very little (except perhaps that Olórin was very fond of the Elves - though he seems to have gone among them in disembodied form quite often). After the rebellion of the Noldor, for the rest of the First Age (the about 600 years of the Sun) Aman was closed off from Middle-earth. Nor was it opened much (and forbidden for Men) in the Second Age.

So there appears to have been little occasion of any "the history between Sauron and Saruman before the events at the end of the Third Age."

Saruman being selected as an emissary by Aulë might well have been on the surmise that he would be able to understand Sauron best, perhaps anticipate moves and devise counter-moves due to a similarity in character. As it did turn out, that similarity unfortunately also extended to character *defects*, as even shown by their Vala Aulë in his creation of the Dwarves.
As to Saruman's "alliance" with Sauron, I wouldn't see this as being entirely, perhaps even primarily, voluntary. My impression is that Saruman was trapped by Sauron via their respective Palantiri. At least at the time that Saruman spoke to Gandalf before imprisoning the latter at the top of Orthanc, Saruman seems still to have had a hope of getting hold of the One Ring himself. And he would have been, even more than Gandalf, one of the few (perhaps only these two could have pulled it off) who could have used the One Ring to overthrow Sauron - in the process becoming a clone of his, as JRRT stressed.


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## Sir Eowyn (Apr 18, 2020)

That reminds me... kind of sad that a Wizard, the greatest of the order, can be turned into the tool of Mordor while Denethor holds out, in palantir.


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## Aldarion (May 3, 2020)

Sir Eowyn said:


> That reminds me... kind of sad that a Wizard, the greatest of the order, can be turned into the tool of Mordor while Denethor holds out, in palantir.



I do not think that is surprising. Let's compare Saruman and Denethor, their similarities and differences:

Saruman has *pride in his own person*, which allows him to believe that he can manipulate and overthrow Sauron. Thus he uses Palantir for his own purposes, _his own benefit_.
Denethor has *pride in his own abilities but also pride in his country*. He believes that he can use Palantir without falling under Sauron's influence. But his goal in using Palantir is never his own benefit; he seeks knowledge and assistance of Palantir solely because he is despairing in his ability to protect Gondor. Thus he uses Palantir _for benefit of Gondor_. For Denethor himself, Palantir only brings loss.

Saruman *seeks power for his own benefit*. He creates army to conquer his own empire, even producing Orc-Human crossbreeds. His quest for One Ring too is solely to increase his own power.
Denethor *does not seek power or not for his own.* He does want Boromir to bring him One Ring, but his discussion with Gandalf shows that even then he is - on conscious level at least - aware of Ring's threat. Denethor's stated reason for wanting One Ring in Minas Tirith is that he does not believe mission to destroy the Ring will succeed - and if Ring is to be kept from Sauron, Minas Tirith indeed is one of - if not _the - _most secure places in Middle Earth.

Saruman *sees others as beneath him, as pawns or slaves. He is incapable of seeing inherent value of other beings.* Only value he sees in others is as tools for his own profit, to facilitate Saruman's own interests. When he breaks, it is because his plans of conquest fail.
Denethor *may see himself as above most other people, but he also knows lov*_*e*_*,* *which shows that he values others for what they are*. He may be massive asshole; but at the very least, he does genuinely love his sons - it was Boromir's death which started breaking him, and Faramir's (apparently impending) death which finally broke his sanity. He also loved his late wife.

So while Saruman and Denethor are, on surface, similar to one another, look below the exterior shell shows that they are, in fact, extremely different. One could even say that it was precisely Saruman's power and wisdom which were, in the end, his undoing; because they made him believe he is more than others and that he should rule over them. Denethor also met the same fate in sense that his power and wisdom were his undoing - he was eventually driven mad by combination of his losses and effects of his mental struggle against Sauron. But unlike Saruman, he never abandoned his duty and never surrendered to Sauron - because he* cared for things beyond himself*.


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## Sir Eowyn (May 3, 2020)

All very good points... but it still does illustrate that a mortal Man can be just as strong as a Maia, or stronger. It's not a rigid hierarchy, in terms of strength of will.


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## Alcuin (May 3, 2020)

There’s an essay, “Istari”, in _Peoples of Middle-earth_ that discusses some of this. If I remember correctly, Aulë chose Curunír (Saruman) to lead the Istari. That indicates that Aulë himself thought Curunír the Maia most capable of overcoming Sauron. I believe I recall that Gandalf said that it was by the arts of Saruman that Sauron was driven from Dol Guldur. I also recall that Tolkien wrote, possibly in “Istari”, that Saruman and Sauron were very much alike, and so when Sauron, whose native power was greater than Saruman’s to begin with (I think I also recall that Sauron was, in his original form as Mairon before his fall, the most powerful of the Maiar), quickly understood him and was able to daunt him through the palantír. “Istari” makes the point that they were very much alike. I imagine they knew one another reasonably well before Sauron took to evil. Now I’ve written all this without referencing the essay, so I invite you to read it or reread it and correct any errors on my part.

The connection between the fall of Saruman and the fall of Denethor can best be seen in their final confrontations with Gandalf. “Confrontation” is a poor word for the events: these are more attempts or invitations on Gandalf’s part to them to do what they know is correct. Saruman knew that helping the West in its time of need was the right thing to do, but in order to do that, he’d have to give up his position of leadership. Denethor knew that taking up arms and going into the field of battle to defend Minas Tirith was the right thing to do, but that would mean surrendering his authority as ultimate ruler of Gondor to the Heir of Isildur, directly or indirectly. In both cases, the stumbling block was _pride_: neither character was willing to sacrifice his position of authority and supremacy to play second fiddle to anyone else. 

In the use of the palantíri, Sauron never had “authority” to use the palantír he stole from Minas Ithil. Saruman had that authority, but only derivatively from the Stewards of Gondor, whose lieutenant he made himself when he became lord of Isengard. Denethor inherited it as Steward of Gondor, but it was not his by right of descent, but by right of office, and so was also derivative. Aragorn had the right to use any palantír anywhere both as the Heir of Isildur and as the sole remaining Heir of Elendil, and he also had the authority to rescind all previous rights to himself. (“Palantíri”, _Peoples of Middle-earth_) 

Sauron was malignant: Hobbits as miserable slaves would please him more than Hobbits happy and free. Saruman became similarly if less potently malignant (Sauron was by that time completely impotent, but had previously been very powerful), spending weeks doing as much damage to the Shire as he could manage, probably with a view to starving the inhabitants during the winter in order to kill them.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (May 3, 2020)

It's my impression, from the Palantiri essay in UT, that Tolkien -- or the "narrator" -- leaned toward the view that the Orthanc stone was pretty much forgotten in Gondor:

_If Beren the Steward considered the Stone at all when he gave these _(the keys) _to Saruman, he probably thought that it could be in no safer hands than those of the head of the Council opposed to Sauron._

At least, the cautious "if" and "probably" seem to indicate that view. Coupled with the fear that Sauron likely had possession of the Ithil stone, mentioned earlier in the essay, my feeling is that, even if the Stewards remembered it, they would have assumed that a wise wizard would not dare to attempt to use it. I guess I'm saying that, for those reasons, I think it unlikely that there was any "delegation" on their part, of the _use _of the stone.

Of course, I suppose Saruman could make a _de jure _argument that delegation of Orthanc to him meant full use of anything he found there.


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## Aldarion (May 4, 2020)

Alcuin said:


> The connection between the fall of Saruman and the fall of Denethor can best be seen in their final confrontations with Gandalf. “Confrontation” is a poor word for the events: these are more attempts or invitations on Gandalf’s part to them to do what they know is correct. Saruman knew that helping the West in its time of need was the right thing to do, but in order to do that, he’d have to give up his position of leadership. Denethor knew that taking up arms and going into the field of battle to defend Minas Tirith was the right thing to do, but that would mean surrendering his authority as ultimate ruler of Gondor to the Heir of Isildur, directly or indirectly. In both cases, the stumbling block was _pride_: neither character was willing to sacrifice his position of authority and supremacy to play second fiddle to anyone else.



In Denethor's case, at least, I think it was a combination of pride and despair. He realized that he, by himself, could not save Gondor, so he thought that all was lost. I also do not think he knew Aragorn was on the ships with black sails: he appears to believe that these were Corsairs of Umbar (remember his words to Gandalf in their last discussion) and that Aragorn was coming with Riders of Rohan - whose help, as events will show, was indeed not enough to turn the tide of battle on their own. And it is also suggested (or even outright stated, in HoME), that he saw Frodo captured in Cirith Ungol. So frankly, I do not think he considered Aragorn taking the throne at all, because _*he did not believe there will be throne left to take*_.


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