# Gandalfs choice - Folly or Foreseen?



## Ancalagon (Aug 9, 2002)

> 'I will,' said Aragorn heavily. `You followed my lead almost to disaster in the snow, and have said no word of blame. I will follow your lead now - if this last warning does not move you. It is not of the Ring, nor of us others that I am thinking now, but of you, Gandalf. And I say to you: if you pass the doors of Moria, beware! '



Aragorn, it could be said at this point before entering Moria, had a great foreboding of doom that lay on Gandalf. Yet, it strikes me that Gandalf, although not openly concerned, knew that his downfall was to come in Moria. 

Do you think Gandalf accepted this fate in the interests of preserving the fellowship?


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## hpfan55 (Aug 9, 2002)

I agree with Confusticated Gandalf knew that Frodo surviving was more important than his survival so he took the chance.


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## tur-kheleden (Aug 9, 2002)

i think mithrandir knew of the foreboding destiny but i doubt he thought it writtin in stone. i think this becuase a barlog would be a huge danger to the ring. it might even be able to weild it well enough to become a power.


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## kohaku (Aug 10, 2002)

I think gandalf felt the same foreboding as aragorn, but he believed there was a chance they would go unnoticed. Also important to him, as others have stated, was that he was the one who was in greatest danger, not the others. And he made sure of that... he chose to let the others run before him and cross the bridge first while he faced the balrog alone.
the balrog weilding the ring is an interesting notion, but i wonder if the ancient creature would for care for such a thing or even know of its existence and potency after spending so long deep in the mountains. at the very least the balrog would not have known that frodo carried the ring.


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## Lantarion (Aug 10, 2002)

Hmm, I'm not sure about that. Is it stated anywhere that Balrogs ('Bar-logs'! ) had fingers? Or indeed much any physical form? It is said in 'The Bridge of Khazad-Dûm':


> Something was coming up behind them. What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was *a dark form, of man-shape maybe*, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it.


But the supposed 'man-shape' seems to be a very vague sort of description, and implies only that it was a little bit like something that might be familiar to the Company: it wasn't actually a Man!
And it is also said in this chapter:


> In its right hand was a blade like a stabbing tongue of fire; in its left it held a whip of many thongs.


But I think this 'hand' is not actually a hand with digits: after all the Balrog is a spirit of fire and shadow, and has no other mortal form.
SO I don't think it could wield the Ring.


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## Elu Thingol (Aug 10, 2002)

The last time I checked you had to have digits to hold a sword or a whip


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## Ravenna (Aug 10, 2002)

I don't think the trip through Moria can truly be called folly; the fellowship had already tried all other valid routes and had little or no choice left. However, I do believe that Gandalf, as well as Aragorn had a foreboding of doom regarding the endeavour, but for the sake of the quest, Gandalf was prepared to take that risk, even as he risked and lost his life on the bridge of Khazad-dum.


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## Ancalagon (Aug 11, 2002)

I just wonder if this was essential in Gandalfs role, that he needed to have this confrontation with the Balrog. More precisely, he needed to give up his spirit, return to Aman, be re-appointed to continue his task and be strengthened as a result?

Saruman was already a lost cause, and now Saruman of many colours. Gandalf inherited his title of 'The White' and seemed more potent as a result of his transcendance following his 'death'.

Gandalf was reborn because he had to be, and he knew it all along.


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## Ancalagon (Aug 11, 2002)

No, I don't think it was as simple as that, but in essence that is true. It could be akin to a coming of age nearly for Gandalf.


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## Bilbo Baggins57 (Aug 11, 2002)

It's not like they had any other choice but 2 go into Moria. If Frodo & Co. had tried 2 go on/around the mountains they would have been seen by Sauron's spies or they might not have survived at all. So Gandalf probabley figured they had nothing to lose in Moria. I'm not sure if he exactly knew he would be reborn, he may have just thought the Fellowship could only have a better chance through that way. Yeah I agree, he was probably counting on the chance that they would pass through unnoticed. I doubt he expected Pippin to accidently knock the rock into the well & wake up the balrog and/or orcs.


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## Ancalagon (Aug 11, 2002)

Do you honestly think that Pippin dropping the stone was the reason they were discovered?


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## Turgon (Aug 11, 2002)

I've be pondering this question for a few days now and cannot decide either way. Gandalf knew nothing of the Balrog in Moria, and therefore cannot have foreseen a confrontation with so great a foe. (Although I'm sure he had some intimations of the Power of the Creature formerly known as Durin's Bane) And thinking about it, apart from a lucky swipe on the part of the Balrog... Gandalf would have been home free... 

As to whether or not he knew he needed to return to Valinor to be reappointed in his power (or indeed whether or not he knew he could return to Middle Earth at all once his physical form was slain) I'm not still in two minds. Yet the battle with the Balrog on the Bridge of Khazad-dûm was not the first time Gandalf had been ready to lay down his life. Years before in a minor skirmish in the eastern foot-hills of the Misty Mountains...



> _from 'Out of the Frying-Pan into the Fire'_
> 
> 'Then Gandalf climbed to the top of his tree. The sudden splendour flashed from his wand like lightening, as he got ready to spring down from on high right among the spears of the goblins. That would have been the end of him, though he would probably have killed many of them as he came hurtling down like a thunderbolt. But he never leapt.'



Given that this quote is pre-LoTR (and quite possibly before Gandalf had evolved into a Emissary of the West) not much can be drawn from it. Yet he _does_ seems rather nonchalant about his life - considering he is just about to embark on a journey to flush Sauron out of Mirkwood - is there a possibility that all the Istari thought they could be returned to ME if their physical forms were slain?

After Saruman's physical form is destroyed, his spirit can be seen briefly glancing westwards as if waiting for something...



> _from 'The Scouring of the Shire'_
> 'To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing.'



Umm... I'm just babbling now...


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## Ravenna (Aug 11, 2002)

I would asssume that, being a Maia, Gandalf knew that although his mortal shape could be destroyed, his spirit would survive, so death, in some ways would have held little fear beyond the fear of the quest's failure if he was not there to help. Whether or not he knew that he would be able to come back as he did I'm not so sure about.


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## Kat (Aug 11, 2002)

I am inclined to agree with Anc, the fall of Gandalf in Moria has always reminded me of the scene in the first Star Wars movie, when Obiwan is fighting Vader, and says something like 'if you kill me i will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine', and let himself be killed. It seemed to me that Gandalf perhaps knew that he would have to be returned as the White, to match the power of Sauron, and fulfill his task.


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## Cirdan (Aug 12, 2002)

I think that going through Moria would definately have serious consequences for the company. Since Durin's Bane, the Balrog of Khazad-dum, was Maia, just like Gandalf or Saruman, he would be obviously worried that he would meet a foe comparable to his own.

I think that Gandalf knew that danger coming to him was great, but that is just what I believe from what I have read.

On the shape of Balrogs and if they could weild a ring: Despite the movie's depiction of them as a minotaur-like creature, Balrogs were man-shaped, but fire streamed from them and were swarthed in darkness and carried whips of flames. Though I can't be sure, I believe that a Balrog could wield a ring of power since I would think that man-shaped implied that it had fingers. as a maia I would think that one would have the mental capacity to wield it, if he in fact knew that the Ring was moving through Khazad-dum.


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## Cirdan (Aug 12, 2002)

You could also explain as to why Aragorn and Gandalf discussed the plans of the fellowship because they were friends and Gandalf knew Aragorn could be trusted. They already suspected that Boromir could not be trusted because of his lust to possess the Ring.


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## Ancalagon (Aug 12, 2002)

> They already suspected that Boromir could not be trusted because of his lust to possess the Ring.



There was no suspicion of Boromir by any member of the Fellowship, save possibly Frodo who noticed Boromir look at the ring with a possible glint. Gandalf and Aragorn certainly had no reason to doubt Boromirs intention to stay true to the wishes of the council.


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## pohuist (Aug 12, 2002)

I believe that Gandalf did not foresee his death or that he will/needs to be reborn. If Gandalf could foresee everything, how would you explain the many passages in the book when he is thinking long and hard what to do next and how to do it. He simply went into Moria b/c he needed to get to the other side of the mountains and there was no other suitable way. (Going further South was bringing them too close to Isengard). He passed through Moria once and beleived he could do it again. I don't think he knew about Balrog. He knew that Moria was perilous, but everywhere else it was perilous as well.


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## pohuist (Aug 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Confusticated _
> *
> 
> I don't think anyone said that Gandalf could forsee everything. But lets say that he could forsee something, does this mean that he wouldn't have to think about it? I think not.
> Remember when Sam and Frodo looked into the mirror of Galadiel? They forsaw things, but they had to make all the choices. *



Ancalagon and you in the first 2 posts on this thread suggest that Gandalf foresaw he would die in Moria. Why that is not 'everything', from reading the book we could infer that the Quest would not have been successful without Gandalf being reborn. I believe, Gandalf knew that. So, he must have foreseen that he will be reborn, even stronger.
And I don't think he could foresee it, therefore, I don't belive that he foresaw his death in Moria. However, as my earlier post suggests, it wasn't folly either.

As for Hobbits, c'me on -- that was Mirror of Galadriel, Elven magic, a totally different thing, didn't she say the Mirror shows many things, ...some that will happen, some that will never happen.


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## pohuist (Aug 16, 2002)

I just think that he thought that Moria is dangerous, especially for him, but its the best way under the circumstances. Actually, with Wargs around and Garadras rejecting them, they didn't have much choice.

Gandalf had some power of foresight but it stemmed more from his experience of dealings with the world than of his Istari nature.

BTW, Confusticated, LOVE your logo.


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## Confusticated (Aug 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by pohuist _
> *I just think that he thought that Moria is dangerous, especially for him, but its the best way under the circumstances. Actually, with Wargs around and Garadras rejecting them, they didn't have much choice.
> 
> Gandalf had some power of foresight but it stemmed more from his experience of dealings with the world than of his Istari nature.
> ...



That could be so.
and I'm glad you like the avatar, it's had a few compliments.


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## Ancalagon (Aug 16, 2002)

> Ancalagon and you in the first 2 posts on this thread suggest that Gandalf foresaw he would die in Moria.



In truth I offered an opinion to the forum, though not absolutely my own. It is essential in getting a thread in motion to offer an opinion; whether it be truth of the Dragon is another matter.


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## pohuist (Aug 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ancalagon _
> *
> 
> In truth I offered an opinion to the forum, though not absolutely my own. It is essential in getting a thread in motion to offer an opinion; whether it be truth of the Dragon is another matter. *



I know how that goes: "The views presented are not necessarily that of ...".  
But it was your post, nonetheless, and it suggested certain things. Whether or not you actually subscribe to that opinion is irrelevant for the purposes of the discussion, the only information we have is your post.

I totally agree that you need an opinion to get the thread going, and I don't necessarily always argue the point of view I actually hold.


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## Grond (Aug 17, 2002)

Gandalf's choice was neither folly nor foreseen. Going through Moria was a choice borne of necessity. There were no other avenues to explore (save for Harad's Gap of Rohan which was rejected out of hand by Gandalf as being too close to Saruman). Moria was the only choice, be it logical or suicidal. I also reject the notion that Gandalf had to be reborn the White for the mission to succeed. Gandalf was brought back bigger and better than before, but he was not pushover before he fell. Let us not forget that he bested a Balrog as the Grey. 

Also, I am not aware of him performing any action after he became the White that he could not have performed as the Gray. Saruman always feared him (as outlined very clearly by JRRT in UT) and someone feared is someone who is likely ultimately to dominate you. Gandalf would have still (IMHO) have bested Saruman anyway. Remember that Saruman had technically already removed himself from the Council by becoming Saruman "the Many-coloured". 

In summary, Gandalf went through Moria because he had to. He died to protect his friends. He would not have known what his fate would be. It was the Valar that decided to send him back. They did this as a reward for his self sacrifice and to aid the People's of Middle-earth. It was not folly nor foreseen merely fore - tunate.


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## Ceorl (Aug 17, 2002)

I have to agree with Grond on those points, Gandalf never knew that there was a Balrog in Moria only that there was something of great power. And who of the Istari would dream that there could be something of greater power than themselves sitting idly by in the 3rd age of ME?

Also someone mentioned that they didn't know whether Balrogs had fingers? The maiar were not material in essence but spiritual, they clothed themselves in flesh so as to be more recognisable to the Children of Illuvatar. The balrog could very well have created himself fingers had he figured out the power of the ring.

Also Gandalf may have suspected the danger to him self but I seriously doubt that he foresaw his own death, however the Ainur(the good ones anyway) have been shown as completely unselfish and I am pretty sure Gandalf would have given his life for any one of the company.


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## Confusticated (Aug 17, 2002)

Ceorl...do you think that Aragorn knew of the Balrog?


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## Ceorl (Aug 17, 2002)

I am pretty sure he didn't. If he has he would have told Gandalf and then Gandalf would not have lead them through Moria, no matter how dangerous the other paths were. His feeling of foreboding was a hereditary type prophecy thing I quote:



> but Ivorwen his wife *who was also foresighted*





> That will indeed be your fate" said Gilraen; but though she had in a measure the foresight of her people



The Dunedain have a measure of foresight.


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## pohuist (Aug 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Grond _
> *I also reject the notion that Gandalf had to be reborn the White for the mission to succeed. I am not aware of him performing any action after he became the White that he could not have performed as the Gray. Gandalf would have still (IMHO) have bested Saruman anyway. *



I respectfully disagree. Saruman (of many colors) have imprisoned Gandalf the Grey in Orthanc before, so I don't see how Gandalf was stronger. We are not necessarily afraid of only those more powerful, we are usually afraid of those powerful enough to do some damage, even if we believe them to be weaker. Gandalf the White was allowed to reveal his strength every now and then that proved quite useful during the talks with Saruman and resquing Faramir from Nasgul's assault.


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## Gildor the Elf (Aug 18, 2002)

I think Gandalf was trying to keep the fellowship far of orcs, throlls and the balrog, and Gandalf wants the ring away from Sauron in that time.


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## Kat (Aug 18, 2002)

Grond, in an earlier post, you pointed out that Gandalf feared Saruman. I agree, to what extent do you think the status of Gandalf as the bearer of one of the Three play in this? Does the discord between S and G stem from this, or from a fear of Gandalf's strength regardless of the Ring?


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## Grond (Aug 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kat _
> *Grond, in an earlier post, you pointed out that Gandalf feared Saruman. I agree, to what extent do you think the status of Gandalf as the bearer of one of the Three play in this? Does the discord between S and G stem from this, or from a fear of Gandalf's strength regardless of the Ring? *


Actually the author wrote a lot about the discord of which you speak.


> _from Unfinished Tales, The Istari_
> ...But Círdan from their first meeting at the Grey Havens divined in him reverence, and he gave to his keeping the Third Ring, Narya the Red.
> 
> "For," said he, "great labours and perils lie before you, and lest your task prove too great and wearisome, take this Ring for your aid and comfort. It was entrusted to me only to keep secret, and here upon the West-shores it is idle; but I deem that in days ere long to come it should be in nobler hands than mine, that may wield it for the kindling of all hearts to courage." 2 And the Grey Messenger took the Ring, and kept it ever secret; *yet the White Messenger (who was skilled to uncover all secrets) after a time became aware of this gift, and begrudged it, and it was the beginning of the hidden ill-will that he bore to the Grey*, which afterwards became manifest.
> ...


I think you misread my post. It was always Saruman who feared and loathed Gandalf. I feel this was because Gandalf had that which Saruman lacked... compassion. While Saruman saw himself as high above the Peoples of Middle-earth and felt he was sent to save them from themselves... Gandalf saw himself as a vessel of aid sent by the Valar to aid the Peoples of Middle-earth and to enable them to reach their full potential. Where Saruman had skill of voice and hand, Gandalf had skill of heart and mind. It was not in question who would ultimately win out.

Someone that Gandalf did fear was Sauron. The HoMe has information where Olorin was, indeed, hesistant and resistent to go to Middle-earth at the outset of the mission for fear of facing the greatest of the Maia, Gorthaur the Cruel. I'll get you the quotes tomorrow.


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## Kat (Aug 19, 2002)

cool, thanks for the info, I'll lokk forward to the quotes. My reading of that chapter of UT was that Cirdan giving the ring to Gandalf was THE major dent in Saruman's ego, thus his dislike for our Grey (then White) hero. I haven't read HoMe yet though, so any further info provided will be eagerly accepted.


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## eltonho88 (Aug 19, 2002)

Firstly, I don;t understand why we should link Christianity to LOTR. I feel LOTR should be a learning lesson apart from our religion. To meet the challenges ahead bravely and un-timidatedly, etc.

So Gandalf, Saruman and even Sauron are Maia, they have no fear to die. Folly or foreseen, what Gandalf wants is to get rid of the evil that is at hand. Gandalf is not afraid of the Balrog who is also a Maia and he will not be afraid to meet Sauron. He challenged Sauron spiritly at Sarn Gebir to warn Frodo to take off his ring.

An off -track question - It was said that the Dwarves dug too deep into Moria to release the Balrog. How, why, when did the Balrog got captured at the deep earth below. By who?

------------------------------------------

Balrogs - maia twisted by Morgoth


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## Kat (Aug 19, 2002)

great question...


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## Grond (Aug 19, 2002)

> _from The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, Letter #144 To Naomi Mitchison, 25 April 1954_
> The Balrog is a survivor from the Silmarillion and the legends of the First Age. So is Shelob. The Balrogs, of whom the whips were the chief weapons, were primeval spirits of destroying fire, chief servants of the primeval Dark Power of the First Age. They were supposed to have been all destroyed in the overthrow of Thangorodrim, his fortress in the North. *But it is here found (there is usually a hang-over especially of evil from one age to another) that one had escaped and taken refuge under the mountains of Hithaeglin (the Misty Mountains).* It is observable that only the Elf knows what the thing is – and doubtless Gandalf.





> _from The Silmarillion, Chapter 24, Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath_
> But it availed him not. The Balrogs were destroyed, *save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth;* and the uncounted legions of the Orcs perished like straw in a great fire, or were swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind. Few remained to trouble the world for long years after.





> from The Lord of the Rings, Appendix A, III Durin's Folk[/i]
> The Dwarves delved deep at that time, seeking beneath Barazinbar for mithril, the metal beyond price that was becoming yearly ever harder to win.40 *Thus they roused from sleep41 a thing of terror that, flying from Thangorodrim, had lain hidden at the foundation to the earth since the coming of the Host of the West: a Balrog of Morgoth.* Durin was slain by it, and the year after Náin I, his son; and then the glory of Moria passed, and its people were destroyed of fled far away.





> from The Lord of the Rings, Appendix A, Footnote 41[/i]
> 41 Or released it from prison; it may well be that it had already been awakened by the malice of Sauron.


There are a few references which speak of the sleeping terror which lay under the mountains. 

I would speculate that the Balrog escaped under the Earth after the Great Battle where Morgoth was emprisoned and Ancalagon the Black was slain by Earendil. Sauron was ashamed and unabashed and did not wish to kneel to the Power of the Valar and serve penitence for his misdeeds and I imagine the Balrog was of much the same mind. Rather than subjugate himself to serving a long penance in Valinor, he fled and his himself at the roots of the Misty Mountains and entered a sleep of helplessness? The Dwarves later awake him (or Sauron's awakened him and the Dwarves merely freed him) as they delved deeper and deeper for their precious mithril. 

At least that's the way I see... but I could be wrong.


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## Kat (Aug 23, 2002)

Thank you learned friend! Interesting quotes, I agree with your interpretation.


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## Ancalagon (Apr 2, 2003)

'yoink'


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## GuardianRanger (Apr 3, 2003)

This thread was started quite a while before I joined, and yet, just the other day, I see a new post.

My question is:

Why wouldn't the fellowship use the Old Forest road to cross the Misty Mountains, then follow the Anduin south? At best case, they could stop in Lothlorien and ultimately get boats. At worst case, the trek south along the western shores of the River.

Gandalf would certainly know the way; to the point that I think he would have probably steered clear of the porch to the goblin realm he inadvertanly discovered in The Hobbit.

Yes, it would be a little out of the way and take more time, but, no moria, and Gap of Rohan.

I hope I didn't miss something obvious as to why that route was not originally taken.


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## Húrin Thalion (Apr 5, 2003)

Well... I think that there is mention but since I ma lazy of nature I won't check that and take i out of my memory. It was because the orcs of the area had started to multiply again and would be guarding the passes. He hoped that the Redhorn pass and Moria would still be clear since it was further from their capitol, Gundabad. Also they would have to get past Dôl Guldur which was not a very pleasant place at the time.
Húrin Thalion


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## Eriol (Apr 8, 2003)

It is explained in the chapter "The Ring Goes South", sorry if I don't give a quote, but they travelled on the western side of the mountains because the terrain was less clear and therefore spies would not be as successful in spotting them; also, on the East side there were Wargs. Finally, they expected the Redhorn pass to be open, since it is much more to the south than the High Pass close to Rivendell and it would be perhaps free of orcs that were multiplying again in the North after the War of Dwarves and Orcs.

Please someone find a quote .

On the actual matter of the thread, we assume that Gandalf had to die to become the White. I see no reason to assume this, and I don't think Gandalf would think that way. For all we know his "unveiling" could take place while they were at Lothlórien, or is Eru limited by a living body as opposed to a dead one?

I think foresight by Aragorn and in a certain measure by Gandalf is only a feeling of dread, unknown fear, nothing as specific as "I will get the Balrog, die, and be reborn". (As someone posted if it were not for a lucky strike by the Balrog Gandalf would leave with the Fellowship).


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