# Did any other wizards turn evil?



## The Necromancer (Jun 12, 2002)

*Bad, Bad Wizard!*

Ok, besides Saruman, were there any other wizards turned evil?


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## Beorn (Jun 12, 2002)

Possibly: There were five Istari, or Wizards...Gandalf, Saruman, and Radagast we know of. Alatar and Pallando are mentioned in other works. They are thought to have created 'magic cults that outlived the fall of Sauron' in the Far East...But, we don't know that to be true, it's only Tolkien's speculation...


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## Elu Thingol (Jun 12, 2002)

You could say Radagast turned evil because he helped Saruman lure Gandalf into a trap, but Radagast might not have known that Saruman was evil at the time.


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## Leto (Jun 12, 2002)

Radagast suspected nothing...Saruman was the head of the Council, why would it be suspicious for him to summon Gandalf to him, in time of crisis such as it was? It was Radagast that allowed Gandalf to escape, as well, though indirectly...since Gandalf asked him to spread the word amongst all the birds and beasts, to keep an eye out for him...and he did so, that is how Gwaihir found Gandalf at Orthanc. Radagast simply 'abandoned' the quest...or perhaps he had a different purpose all together, since Tolkien's notes indicated he was sent on Yavanna's behalf...which then explains why he was more enamoured of the wilderness, and the birds and the beasts of Middle Earth, than with the people. 

What book or writing has Tolkien's speculation about the blue wizards and 'magic cults'? In UT, it simply states that they went into the east, with Saruman, when they first arrived, but did not come back. Also, it declares that Orome chose Allatar, and that Allatar took Pallando as a friend. And perhaps they were destined to go to the further parts of Middle Earth and stay there, since Orome had the greatest knowledge of those areas. I would assume that, had they been seduced by Sauron to serve him, he would have been much more powerful. Or perhaps their service was just what made Sauron's 'arm' so long...controlling tribes of Easterlings and Southrons, and other men from farther parts of the world. Though it is said that those peoples had been under his sway since the second age, when he first began his wars with the exiles from Numenor. 


I wonder what the significance is of having five Istari...when two of them are never mentioned except to note that there were five all together.


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## Beorn (Jun 12, 2002)

> What success they [Alatar and Pallando] had I do not know; but I fear they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were the founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.'


The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, No. 211


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## Asmodeus (Jun 12, 2002)

I was just wondering if you guys consider 'the mouth of sauron' to be a 'bad wizard' ,that is if he was a wizard. I can't really remember.

Looks cool for the movie as Bruce Spence(australian)


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## My_Precious (Jun 12, 2002)

How 'bout the Witch King?
BTW, out of the five wizards, only Gandalf succeeded. Their purpose was to help humans, elves, etc in the War of the Third Age. First two and Saruman failed (quite obvious why). Radagast failed because instead of communicating with people he communicated with animals/birds.
My post is really confusing...


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## Theoden (Jun 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by My_Precious _
> *... out of the five wizards, only Gandalf succeeded. Their purpose was to help humans, elves, etc in the War of the Third Age. First two and Saruman failed (quite obvious why). Radagast failed because instead of communicating with people he communicated with animals/birds...*



agreed, My_Precious, i think that is right on.


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## Elu Thingol (Jun 13, 2002)

> _Posted by Leto_
> Radagast suspected nothing...Saruman was the head of the Council, why would it be suspicious for him to summon Gandalf to him, in time of crisis such as it was? It was Radagast that allowed Gandalf to escape, as well, though indirectly...since Gandalf asked him to spread the word amongst all the birds and beasts, to keep an eye out for him



Quite right, I have not quite gotten through UT



> _Posted by Leto_
> and he did so, that is how Gwaihir found Gandalf at Orthanc



I did some research on Radagast and found that there is no evidence to support this.

I did read a thread recently about the blue wizards and the idea that Saruman killed them both was suggested.


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## Gamil Zirak (Jun 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Asmodeus _
> *I was just wondering if you guys consider 'the mouth of sauron' to be a 'bad wizard' ,that is if he was a wizard. I can't really remember.*


I'm pretty sure the Mouth of Sauron was a man.


> _Originally posted by My_Precious _
> *How 'bout the Witch King?*


He was a man (at least before he begain a ring wraith) as well.


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## Lantarion (Jun 13, 2002)

Yes, if you can call a person who has been under the influence of an evil Ring for hundreds of years a Man. 
The Mouth of Sauron was a Black Númenórean, and hence a Man.


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## Leto (Jun 13, 2002)

Thanks, Beorn, for the letter. If Tolkien 'suspected' that something is so...then it most likely is so, in Middle Earth (until later or more refined ideas are discovered)...

"I did some research on Radagast and found that there is no evidence to support this"

I believe UT may also make this speculation...or did Gandalf mention it at the council of Elrond? Since Radagast 'spread the word' to all the birds and beasts that he could, to keep an eye out for things, and bring news, Gwaihir eventually got word from some bird, or moth , or something...that Gandalf was trapped at the top of Orthanc. I believe it was at the council...since someone asked "Is Radagast then in league with Saruman?" and Gandalf says he doesn't think so, since he detected no malice or alterior motive when Radagast brought him the news, and he was totally willing to do as Gandalf asked regarding getting the help of the animals...

and yes, overall, Gandalf was the only Istari who succeeded...they were all sent to Middle Earth with the task of opposing Sauron, and he was the only one who successfully did so. It is only a speculation that Radagast, in fact, was predisposed to be enamoured of the wild things...since it was Yavanna that begged Saruman (Curumo), to take Radagast (Aiwendil) with him. Manwe may have told them all that their purpose was to oppose Sauron...but each Maia may have had certain allegiances to the Vala that chose them, as well, probably being 'of their people'. In the note, it attributes Curumo to Aule, Allatar to Orome, Olorin to Manwe. Aiwendil was chosen by Yavanna, who sort of forced his companionship on Curumo...and Allatar chose Pallando as a friend.


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## Gil-Galad (Jun 13, 2002)

Well,the Maiar who comes are Gandalf,Saruman,Radagast,and other two who don't have names but are dressed in blue.They went east and south and nothing is heard from them any more.It's written in Ut that they have probably done things connected with bad things(I don't know the word in English but voodoo religion can be an example of what they have done.)And nobody learns something more for them.


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## Elu Thingol (Jun 13, 2002)

> _Posted by Leto_
> I believe UT may also make this speculation...or did Gandalf mention it at the council of Elrond? Since Radagast 'spread the word' to all the birds and beasts that he could, to keep an eye out for things, and bring news, Gwaihir eventually got word from some bird, or moth , or something...that Gandalf was trapped at the top of Orthanc. I believe it was at the council...since someone asked "Is Radagast then in league with Saruman?" and Gandalf says he doesn't think so, since he detected no malice or alterior motive when Radagast brought him the news, and he was totally willing to do as Gandalf asked regarding getting the help of the animals...



Quite right, I read the council of Elrond over again and it does speculate this. I got mixed up because I had read the sentence recently where it says that Gandalf thought that Radagast was in League with Saruman when he first was captured.


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