# Are Ringwraiths immortal?



## Lhunithiliel (Jun 3, 2003)

> *They were once Men... Great kings of Men...*


(quote - from the FOTR-movie, Aragorn at Bree, expalining to the four Hobbits about the ringwraiths)

So... What proof do we have that they are immortal if they were once MORTAL Men?
Now if you want me to remember about their tragic end at the destruction of the ring, I still see no firm evidence whether they died or not.
Let's see:


> _ROTK; "Mount Doo," :_
> ...The whole mind and purpose of the Power that wielded them was now bent with overwhelming force upon the Mountain. At his summons, wheeling with a rending cry, in a last desperate race there flew, faster than the winds, the Nazgûl the Ringwraiths, and with a storm of wings they hurtled southwards to Mount Doom....


That was their last action...and just a few moment later...


> And into the heart of the storm, with a cry that pierced all other sounds, tearing the clouds asunder, the Nazgûl came, shooting like flaming bolts, as caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky *they crackled, withered, and went out*.


Does this mean they *died*?
For after all, they were mortals once... 
But...on the other hand, they were _wraiths_! Do wraiths *die*?

Tell me what you think of all that?


----------



## FrankSinatra (Jun 3, 2003)

*Well*

I think they were entities tied solely to the ring, once the power of the ring was removed, one could say their 'soul' (inconceivable i know) was removed and thus they lived no longer.

But is there not a quote somwhere about Sauron himself remaining a permanent 'shadow' if the ring were destroyed?


----------



## Arvedui (Jun 3, 2003)

I think that I have pondered the same question...
I tend to believe that they do not die, allthough it is a close call. The reason for this is mostly in the last part of the last sentence of this quote:


> 'Éowyn! Éowyn!' cried Merry. Then tottering, struggling up, with her last strength she drove her sword between crown and mantle, as the great shoulders bowed before her. The sword broke sparkling into many shards. The crown rolled away with a clang. Éowyn fell forward upon her fallen foe. But lo! the mantle and hauberk were empty. Shapeless they lay now on the ground, torn and tumbled; and a cry went up into the shuddering air, and faded to a shrill wailing, passing with the wind, a voice bodiless and thin that died and was swallowed up, and was never heard again *in that age of this world.*


From _The Battle of the Pelennor Fields_ 

IMO, this indicates that the Lord of the Nazgul, at least, would be heard again at some later time.
Still, I do not consider this as decisive evidense. Your quotes more than indicate that their immortality is bound to the One Ring.

Maybe it is just my wishful thinking that lead me to believe that they are indeed immortal?


----------



## Lhunithiliel (Jun 3, 2003)

I wouldn't compare Sauron's destiny to that of the wraiths, because after all - he was a Maia and they were mortals.
And Sauron's soul (or whatever he turned into after the destruction of the ring) might have gone wandering within the confines of Arda. For I do not expect him to break out into the Void to join his true Master, neither I expect Sauron to wish it so much!  
So, I was wondering... What happened to the Nazgul? Their material form (whatever it was) was destroyed... But remembering the point that Men were the "priviledged" children of Eru, whose faith was to be decided only by him.... and that their souls went to places about which neither the Valar nor the Elves knew anything.... 
Where then did the souls of the wraiths go? 
And in fact.... weren't they already just "spirits" and not physically shaped humans when they lived as Sauron's servants under the spell of the Ring?

Then, what happened to these spirits?  

Wonders....wonders....


----------



## Lhunithiliel (Jun 3, 2003)

Arvedui, we posted at one and the same time 

You have a point there and I also think that in your quote there s even much evidence about the uncertain fate of the Nazgul.
After all, someone must have emitted that cry!


----------



## Arvedui (Jun 3, 2003)

So the question then is what kind of "immortality-power" there was in the Nine Rings.

The way I see it, the immortality of the Ringwraiths is tied to either The One or The Nine. If we assume that immortality rests with The Nine, then they did not die unless those rings were also destroyed.

And I see no evidence that they were.


----------



## Lhunithiliel (Jun 3, 2003)

I would not say so!
How to expect some material piece of jewlry, no matter what "magic" it had, to be more powerful that Eru himself?
I'm saying this, because the Nazgul were Men, therefore, it was Eru who mastered their souls and fate after all and inspite of all the evil powers they had chosen to serve in M-e.
So, I was wondering what did the all-mighty do with the souls of these 9 mortals?

Or could it be that Melkor somehow had won them from Eru's authority? .... Though I doubt...


----------



## Arvedui (Jun 3, 2003)

From The Silmarillion; _Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age:_ 


> Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old. They obtained glory and great wealth, yet it turned to their undoing. They had, as it seemed, unending life, yet life became unendurable to them. They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in the world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men; but too often they beheld only the phantoms and delusions of Sauron. And one by one, sooner or later, according to their native strength and to the good or evil of their wills in the beginning, they fell under the thralldom of the ring that they bore and under the domination of the One, which was Sauron's. And they became for ever invisible save to him that wore the Ruling Ring, and they entered into the realm of shadows. The Nazgûl were they, the Ringwraiths, the Enemy's most terrible servants; darkness went with them, and they cried with the voices of death.



Seems as if I have to change my stance a little: *They had, as it seemed, unending life...* 
I can hardly read this in no other manner than that they did not have unending life, but were in fact mortal.



> And I see no evidence that they were.


Well, it is a good thing that I can correct myself, before someone else does. From the same chapter:


> And so indeed it has since befallen: the One and the Seven and the Nine are destroyed; [...]


----------



## Lantarion (Jun 3, 2003)

I'd say they had unending life as long as the Ring existed.


----------



## Eriol (Jun 3, 2003)

I don't think any power besides Eru could destroy their fëar. They are probably wherever Morgoth worshippers are. (shudders). What their Rings conferred to them was action without matter -- their fëar were not constrained by the lack of a hröa. However, they paid for that with the loss of their free will to Sauron. After the Ring was destroyed, their fëar would be "released" from wraith-life and go to where other Men's souls go.


----------



## Ithrynluin (Jun 3, 2003)

IMO, after the One Ring was destroyed, the spirits of the Nazgul were released from the thraldom of Sauron. So the wraiths do not DIE, because the spirit (fea) is indestructible.

Elves can refuse the summons of Mandos and can linger in Middle Earth.

Whether Men's spirits can refuse the summons (of Eru?) I do not know. If they can, then perhaps that explains Arvedui's quote '_and was never heard again in that age of this world._' Maybe the spirits of Men remain in Halls similar to those of Mandos, and their period of waiting depends upon their actions in life? According to that the Nazgul would wait for an enormous amount of time, but still their spirits would return one day (but not in that age of this world).



> And so indeed it has since befallen: the One and the Seven and the Nine are destroyed; [...]



How were the Seven and the Nine destroyed? Why not the Three? Because Sauron had no part in their making, as opposed to the Seven and the Nine (though the three were also made with Sauron's knowledge)?


----------



## Elendil3119 (Jun 3, 2003)

About the spirits of the Nazgul, I concur with your theory ithrynluin. I never got the impression that when the One Ring was destroyed, the Nazgul were completely annihilated, but that their spirits survived. Is there any possibility that these spirits went to join the other corrupted spirits (Melkor, Sauron) in the Void, or was that reserved for only Valar and Maiar?


----------



## Elfarmari (Jun 3, 2003)

I don't have the exact quote here, but Gandalf says something about the bearer of the One Ring not dying, but not growing or obtaining life either, they are simply stretched, like Bilbo, like butter over too much bread, until they become mere shadows of what they once were, wraiths. This is at least as I have always pictured it. To me, the ringwraiths are bound to their rings, which Sauron probably held. I would think that since the Elven-rings lost their potency after the destruction of the One, the Nine would loose any power as well, causing old age to 'catch up' to the Nazgul immediately, an exponential increase of the aging Bilbo underwent after passing on the ring.


----------



## Glomund (Jun 3, 2003)

The Nazgul die when they fly into the eruption of Mt. Doom after the ring is destroyed. The question of what happens after cannot be really answered, but I don't think they would go to the outer void, Melkor was set out there because he had the power to reform himself, and if his spirit was in the physical world could and would take shape again and again in order to rule the world. Sauron could also do this, and had done it, until the destruction of the ring which cost him all his power that had been put into it. And so he didn't go to the void either, I can't find the quote, but something was said about him becoming a formless shadow, gnawing the threads of his malice, but unable to take shape or grow. I would think that the souls of the 9 go to Mandos to endure whatever punishments the earned until Eru reveals his designs for the souls of men after the end of the world. However, reading these posts, i was struck by the qoute from the Nazgul kings demise. I recently reread the beginnings of the Return of the Shadow, Tolkiens barely started sequel, and it just hit me that perhaps the new enemy was the Nazgul king, who through his many years under Sauron had learned a way to extend his existence past the destruction of his body and the one ring


----------



## BlackCaptain (Jun 3, 2003)

Basicaly, they are like Maiar. They are only wraiths; Spirits. They can take body forms, and the body forms can be destroyed, but the Ulairi would still be alive. They would just need a new body, although they are more fearsome when they can't be seen for some reason. 

They can only exist as long as the Ring exists. They are the presence of the Ring. They represent the fear that goes along with it. So if the Ring is destroyed, their Wraith forms would be destroyed. Quite simple. They are very much like Maiar, but they do get destroyed. They didn't die, but they were destroyed, because they are the Ring. That's also why they're constantly drawn to it's presence.


----------



## YayGollum (Jun 3, 2003)

I don't see why there's any confusion. Because they had their rings of power on, they were immortal. If they took them off or if the One Ring was destroyed, they would die since they're so achingly old. just like any other race in Tolkien's world, they had spirits that go places when they die. Human spirits don't naturally stick around. They obviously headed for whereever humans go when they die. Problem solved.


----------



## Arvedui (Jun 3, 2003)

Hm...
A number of theories, loosely connected.


> Because they had their rings of power on, they were immortal. If they took them off or if the One Ring was destroyed, they would die since they're so achingly old.


I don't know why, but I have the impression that when Sauron was regaining his strength again, he gathered the Nine Rings to himself. Therefore, the Nazgûl lived even if they didn't actually wear their rings. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. (Or support me if I'm right) 


> How were the Seven and the Nine destroyed? Why not the Three?


I wish I knew as well!
At first I was sure that they weren't, until I re-read the last chapter of the Silmarillion. It really annoys me that the "how" is not stated anywhere. Except that it was known that some of the Seven were already destroyed, or eaten by Dragons, at the time of The War of the Ring.

As ithrynluin stated, their fëar is indestructible. But if we follow that reasoning a little further down that path, then all Men are immortal, aren't they?

And Glomund: I really like your theory!


----------



## Eriol (Jun 3, 2003)

*You have my axe*

Oh, don't you want that? Oh well...

Anyway, you have my support -- I remember quite clearly that Sauron had gathered the Nine to himself. The quote is in the Council of Elrond, when Gandalf is proving that the Hobbit's Ring is the One Ring by exclusion through counting all of the other Rings. I can't provide it myself, though.


----------



## Lhunithiliel (Jun 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Elendil3119 _
> Is there any possibility that these spirits went to join the other corrupted spirits (Melkor, Sauron) in the Void, or was that reserved for only Valar and Maiar?


Well, what a party they'd have then, a?!!!!  

But I see a so far strongly supported line in favour of the rings. Many of you say that my "fellows"   are immortal only because of the power of the rings they bore and that , if I'm correct, when the rings are destroyed their immortality ceases too.

But is it only me and Eriol who think that in fact the only true authority to have had real power over their souls was Iluvatar?!?
'Cause in the light of the overall concept T. presented in his writings concerning Men, it is obvious that no other creature in Arda could dispose of Men's fear(souls). So, it is then logical to think that neither Sauron (Maia) nor Mandos(Vala) or even Melko(another Vala, although mighty) could govern the Nazgul's final fate. How then to expect some "magical" ring could do it?!?
(of course, I would not start again the famous debate "The One Ring - sentient or no!   )
Meaning that being mortals right from the start, they met the fate of all mortals...whatever it was, after they were released from the spell of the Ring (the One or/and each of the Nine). And from this moment on it was Eru who "controlled" the situation.

But then it leaves me wondering.... isn't there some discrepancy here?  
I mean.... on one hand Eru says Men are mortal and he will deal with them (it's his business what exactly he did to them; we do not know). But on the other hand, we witness a Maia!! playing with Eru's creation changing the most essential feature!!! For Sauron succeeded in giving immortality and almost "Maiar"-features to mortals!!! 
Then?


----------



## Eriol (Jun 4, 2003)

I don't think Sauron gave them immortality, their spirits were already immortal. What I do think is that their spirits were able to somehow be kept on Arda by the power of the Rings, instead of leaving as other Men's souls. They were already dead by the time they became wraiths; or, in another way to put it, they had already abandoned their bodies. 

Therefore, as soon as the Nine are rendered ineffectual, their souls depart.

There was no substance in a ringwraith body, as I see it. It is not an "invisible" body, it is not a body at all. the "sinews" that Merry pierced were purely spiritual (and this is one reasoning that explains why all blades perish in contact with them, and why only some very special blades can actually hurt them).

Which leads me to another question -- what was the lineage of Éowyn's sword? Must have been a pretty good sword to hurt the Witch-King.


----------



## Arvedui (Jun 4, 2003)

*Avoiding Eriol's question concerning swords* 



> But is it only me and Eriol who think that in fact the only true authority to have had real power over their souls was Iluvatar?!?


No. No one else than Ilúvatar could deal with their souls/spirits/fëar/whatever.


> But on the other hand, we witness a Maia!! playing with Eru's creation changing the most essential feature!!!


Ilúvatar also gave all inhabitants of Arda somethin special: Free will!
The way I understand it, is that all Elves and Men were free to do whatever they wished when they were alive on Arda, but when their spirits left its housing, there would come a time of judgement. Mandos would take care of the Elves, and Ilúvatar himself would take care of Men.
(I would not like to be one of the Ringwraiths, standing in front of Ilúvatar to receive my doom )

Very good points Lhun. IMO you just shot down the idea of any reappearance of the Ringwraiths, as I can't beleive that one Maia may give any Men the same features and/or "advantages" as he has himself.


----------



## Lhunithiliel (Jun 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Eriol _
> I don't think Sauron gave them immortality, their spirits were already immortal.


But HOW could this be?!?! WHO gave immortality to nine mortals?!?



> What I do think is that their spirits were able to somehow be kept on Arda by the power of the Rings, instead of leaving as other Men's souls. They were already dead by the time they became wraiths; or, in another way to put it, they had already abandoned their bodies.
> 
> Therefore, as soon as the Nine are rendered ineffectual, their souls depart.


Then was Andreth right to say (I'm too lazy to find the exact quote now  ) that by dying Men understand when the *body* dies?!? Was the *body* - destruction death to Men?
Mmmm...... I would not think that Valar and Elves would then feel so great a respect to Men's fate!!! The hroar of any creature in ME was never too much of importance... That's of course my own personal opinion. It is a kind of an idea interwoven within all the stories, tales and it feels as if it is Tolkien's himself .

But back to the wraiths - so, to sum it up so far, most of you do think them as immortal! YOU, REBELS!


----------



## Eriol (Jun 4, 2003)

... I didn't follow that, Lhun. To me, dying means a soul departing from Arda. I think Men and Elves would have thought that way too. That is why they say that of the Eldar Lúthien alone _truly_ died.

It is precisely because the destruction of the body is _not_ death that the Ringwraiths could operate. Spirits need a body, the only exception is the Ringwraiths, because their souls were then tied to the Nine -- in effect, each of the Nine was "the body" of a ringwraith. And when they lost their power the ringwraiths lost their body and departed. 

Likewise the Dead from the Path of the Dead were held by their Oath. However, and it is a big however, there is no sign that those guys could operate on matter itself. They are never shown to operate by any other means than fear. Even Brego's skeleton is found clawing at a door, which to me means panic. to operate on matter they would need a body.

This "power over souls" that is amazing you so much was also yielded by Isildur in that curse. Their souls became bound by the Oath. It is not a "Sauron special". What _is_ a Sauron special is the ability to make these spirits effective over matter. 

Remember that the Witch-King is not only a Ringwraith but also a sorcerer (Gandalf's description of him to Denethor and Pippin). That means that "ringwraithdom" in itself is not sorcery. It is simply the ability to work without a body. "Simply", of course, is a bad word -- the guys could not be killed by any but the toughest weapons, they had the Black Breath, they inspired panic as the disembodied spirits always do (cf. Gimli on Paths of Dead)...


----------



## Lhunithiliel (Jun 4, 2003)

> To me, dying means a soul departing from Arda


Impossible! ...Well, at least not for the Elves and the Vala (I suppose the Maia too). They were all bound WITHIN Arda!

Now, Men... here comes the big question - were their souls allowed to leave Arda? If so, eventually Men become much more _immortal_ than any Elf or/and Vala!
Therefore, could it be that somehow knowing of this unique power, the evil Maia just *used* this uniqueness although not understanding it? 
And this unique power then can explain the exceptional power of the human spirits ( the Ringwraiths, the outhbreakers...). 
Did this power need a material body to excercise it's presence and influence ? In other words - did the wraiths and the oathbreakers need bodies to win what they wanted? I think that they did not. 
In fact, in both cases we witness as if some strong wish to be released from this world as soon as possible and go ....where?
Did the spirits of the ringwraiths and the oathbreakers know where they would go when released by the spells of rings/oaths ?


----------



## Eriol (Jun 4, 2003)

The souls of Men go elsewhere, they do not remain in Arda. I suggest a good debate on this topic between the Guild of Tolkienologists and the Guild of Outcasts, filled with quotes . I remember that Finduilas posted the names of Men among Elves: "the Guests" are among them, referring to how they are really "not of Arda". Also, the story of Beren and Lúthien shows quite clearly that Men's souls go elsewhere. 

A disembodied spirit of a man goes to this place soon after death (again, see Beren and Lúthien). The exceptions are held by something: Rings, the Oath... as soon as this "something" is over, they leave Arda. The spirits need bodies to remain in Arda (for their body is made of the stuff of Arda; once they depart from the body, their spirits depart because Arda is not its proper place).

And no one knows where these souls go, or what happens to them; not even the Valar, with the possible exception of Mandos, and therefore certainly not the ringwraiths or oathbreakers.

Your contention that Men could be more immortal then Elves or Valar is Finrod's comment in the Athrabeth, that since the souls of Men depart, they are not bound by Arda's finite existence like the Elves'. Who knows?


----------



## Lantarion (Jun 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lhunithiliel_
> Now, Men... here comes the big question - were their souls allowed to leave Arda? If so, eventually Men become much more immortal than any Elf or/and Vala!


That's right:


> But the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the world; wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers. Death is their fate, the Gift of Ilúvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy.


From the Silmarillion, _Of the Beginning of Days_.



> _Originally posted by Arvedui_
> Ilúvatar also gave all inhabitants of Arda somethin special: Free will!


Well technically only Men were given Free Will to change their 'fates' even if it were set in the Ainulindalë; whereas Elves are bound to Arda and have fates and destinies (There is a great quote to back this up but I'm too lazy to look for it ).


----------



## Glomund (Jun 4, 2003)

I'll skip back to the question of Eowyn's sword. We can assume it was a ancient blade, since she was of the ruling house, but it was Merrys blade that mattered, it pierced the kings "protections", for lack of a better word, and left him open to being destroyed by Eowyn, her blade didn't matter, just her being a female.


----------



## Eriol (Jun 4, 2003)

hmmm... so if Éowyn struck gold with a blow, even without Merry's contribution, it wouldn't have any effect?

I don't think I agree with that. But I really have no idea.


----------



## Elendil3119 (Jun 4, 2003)

I don't believe that a sword had to be of some great lineage to hurt one of the Nazgul. Just think about it: what does lineage actually do for a sword? Narsil (Anduril) had great lineage, but it was a powerful sword to begin with. The physical forms of the Nazgul were just like anybody else's. They could be killed and destroyed by normal, human means. Their spirits could survive, such as when the Nazgul were drowned in the Bruinen and their bodies were destroyed, but their spirits endured.


----------



## Lantarion (Jun 4, 2003)

Ah, it's a recurring theme in fantasy books.. The ancient sword of [person], forged by the great wizard [dude] in the deeps of time coming to save the day. 
Anyway, it shouldn't be regarded realistically, I think. But if you must, I'd say it only added to the morale of the friendly troops and the fear of the enemies.
Yes the Nazgûl could be killed by anybody, if they got in close enough. But they are formidable opponents, and even Aragorn had a tough time fending them off.


----------



## Glomund (Jun 4, 2003)

I agree that the lineage of a sword is not the most important part, and the 8 lesser ringwraiths could be "killed" by anyone with the courage to face them, and skill to beat them. But the big guy is a different matter, cause when Merry sees his sword disolve, the book states


> No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will


 as I said in my previous post, it was Merry who pierced the spell that protected the Witch King, exposing him to Eowyn. I have always seen the location of the strike as important, much like Achillies heel, it was the one spot where he was vulnerable. The reason I think this way is that Eowyns sword _breaks_ upon striking the king,it doesn't evaporate or whatever, like Merry's. from back in "A knife in the dark" Aragorn says


> but all blades perish that pierce that dreadful king


 not all blades break. Eowyn hit him after the important blow, but she still needed to be a she, since he would not fall at the hand of man.


----------



## gate7ole (Jun 4, 2003)

Let’s first see what exactly is the definition of immortality, within the lore of Tolkien. We read in his Letters:


> 'immortality' (in my world only within the limited longevity of the Earth)


Let’s compare the two gifts to Elves and Men:


> The doom of the Elves is to be immortal, to love the beauty of the world, to bring it to full flower with their gifts of delicacy and perfection, to last while it lasts, never leaving it even when 'slain', but returning.
> 
> The Doom (or the Gift) of Men is mortality, freedom from the circles of the world.


In other words, immortality is only confined among the circles of the world. Also, this immortality seems to me that refers to the “hroa” (body) and not the “fea” (spirit). We assume that the fea is immortal even after the end of Time (at least that is what the elvish lore claims).

Let’s get to the Ringwraiths now. Their fea was immortal by definition, without the interference of the rings. The immortality it gave to them, was bodily. In a way, it resembles of the elvish immortality. They did not age, but still they could be slain (Witch-King). They lived in the Unseen, much like Glorfindel being able to live in both the Seen and the Unseen. It seems that the 9 rings gave to the Ringwraiths elvish characteristics. 


> Longevity or counterfeit 'immortality' (true immortality is beyond Ea) is the chief bait of Sauron – it leads the small to a Gollum, and the great to a Ringwraith.


But to what extent? And with which cost? Since this “transformation” was beyond the “laws”, it eventually became a burden to the “transformed”. Sauron could not change the nature of Men without side-effects. And besides, he didn’t care, as long as Men were lured.


> Men and Elves (the firstborn) respectively, and could not be altered by anyone (even a Power or god)


The “immortality” they got, I think was a deceit. After their death (which is certain to have happened with the destruction of the 9 rings), they did not stay on earth, like the Elves do, they did not get to a similar place like the Halls of Mandos.
I am sure that they followed the fate of Men, whatever is their fate. Remember that no one can change their fate - except the One and in very rare occasions (Luthien, Tuor).
What is this place they went, we can’t of course answer. But I don’t assume that this place is different for the good and the evil. It may be a similar place like the Christian afterlife (waiting to be judged). But there can be no other possible fate for the Ringwraiths.



> *by Lhunithiliel*
> And in fact.... weren't they already just "spirits" and not physically shaped humans when they lived as Sauron's servants under the spell of the Ring?
> 
> Then, what happened to these spirits?


Spirits. We shouldn’t confuse the meanings we have in our world. They had still hroa and fea, just their hroa was not part of the Seen world. This is different from not having hroa at all, i.e. being just a fea that waits for its fate.




> *by Arvedui*
> IMO, this indicates that the Lord of the Nazgul, at least, would be heard again at some later time.
> Still, I do not consider this as decisive evidense. Your quotes more than indicate that their immortality is bound to the One Ring.


I disagree with this explanation of the quote you provided. I find it just one of the linguistic tricks that the professor used to provide a epic tone in his writings. As I said before, I don’t think that the immortality of the Ringwraiths was authentic (like the elvish).


----------



## Eriol (Jun 4, 2003)

Yes, I think the "invisible hröa" makes more sense than the absence of hröa that I imagined earlier on this thread, after your exposition, gate7ole. A body inhabiting the "unseen world". This would also explain the differing powers of the ringwraiths and oathbreakers (I take the oathbreakers to be disembodied spirits, truly without hroär; as seen by their lack of agency upon matter).


----------



## Ithrynluin (Jun 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Arvedui _
> *I don't know why, but I have the impression that when Sauron was regaining his strength again, he gathered the Nine Rings to himself. Therefore, the Nazgûl lived even if they didn't actually wear their rings. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. (Or support me if I'm right) *





> _246 From a letter to Mrs Eileen Elgar (drafts) September 1963_
> Not wholly. I do not think they could have attacked him with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor commands of his that did not interfere with their errand – laid upon them by [color=sky blue]Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held)[/color] had primary control of their wills.





> _Originally posted by Arvedui _
> *As ithrynluin stated, their fëar is indestructible. But if we follow that reasoning a little further down that path, then all Men are immortal, aren't they?*



Yes! But they only get to live out a small part of their 'immortality' in Arda! The rest of it they spend in Eru's Timeless Halls, or wherever their souls are destined to go. Unless we dig into the concept of resurrection...



> _Originally posted by Eriol _
> *There was no substance in a ringwraith body, as I see it. It is not an "invisible" body, it is not a body at all.*



If their bodies had no substance, how did they tamper with the physical world then?



> _Originally posted by Eriol _
> *The "sinews" that Merry pierced were purely spiritual .
> *



How could Merry pierce something spiritual? Or is this the consequence of Merry having used a special weapon, like you said? Where was his sword from? Was it the one he obtained from the Barrow-wight? If so his blade was '_forged many long years ago by Men of Westernesse_' (TFOTR, Fog on the Barrow-Downs). I don't see why a sword forged by Men would be so special as to have powers to tackle the invisible world. Hmmm...



> _Originally posted by Lhunithiliel _
> *But HOW could this be?!?! WHO gave immortality to nine mortals?!?*



Only their existence _in the physical world of Arda_ was prolonged. And Sauron, one of the mightiest of the Maiar, who is also called 'The Necromancer', perfected this craft.



> _Originally posted by Lhunithiliel _
> *Then was Andreth right to say (I'm too lazy to find the exact quote now  ) that by dying Men understand when the body dies?!? Was the body - destruction death to Men?
> *



Yes, the body - or 'the house' - was Men's only link with Arda. Their souls leave the circles of the world, whereas the souls of Elves are bound to Arda.



> _Originally posted by Glomund _
> *We can assume it was a ancient blade, since she was of the ruling house, but it was Merrys blade that mattered, it pierced the kings "protections", for lack of a better word, and left him open to being destroyed by Eowyn, her blade didn't matter, just her being a female. *





> _Originally posted by Glomund _
> *Eowyn hit him after the important blow, but she still needed to be a she, since he would not fall at the hand of man. *



That depends whether 'man' refers to male or the race of Man (there's another thread on this already). But if it refers to 'male' like you say, then Merry's efforts would have been futile, wouldn't they? Unless 'fall at the hand of man' means: 'A man (male) shall not deal me the *final* blow.'

Regarding the quote from the Sil which refers to the destruction of the 9 and the remainder of the 7...Since all these Rings were in Sauron's possession, what if these rings were destroyed in the downfall of Barad-dur - in great fires and such? After all, these rings weren't indestructible (unlike the One which could only be destroyed in Orodruin), and 4 of the Dwarven rings were consumed in dragon fire IIRC. I think this is a satisfactory explanation. Arvedui, what do you make of this?


----------



## Eriol (Jun 4, 2003)

Merry's sword was "woven with spells against the chief foe of the Dúnedain, the Witch-King of Angmar" (There is a quote to that effect somewhere, perhaps in the very chapter of the Witch-King's death).

As for how they interacted with the physical word, I think this is the effect of the Nine Rings.


----------



## Arvedui (Jun 5, 2003)

> Arvedui, what do you make of this?


A lot of sense! 

There is one statement from Glomund, that I did not quite follow:


> Eowyn hit him after the important blow, but she still needed to be a she, since he would not fall at the hand of man.


I might read this in the wrong way, but it is nowhere stated that she needed to be a she. The only thing said about this, is from Glorfindel: "Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall."
I don't think Glorfindel meant that you would have to be a man to kill the Witch-king. I have always read this as foresight, not a curse, if you get the difference. 

gate7ole, IMO, made the most convincing connections, and I believe he is right: the Ringwraiths were not immortal, at least not in the true sense. They just had prolonged life, and would go wherever any Men went after life on Arda.


----------



## Lhunithiliel (Jun 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Arvedui _
> gate7ole, IMO, made the most convincing connections, and I believe he is right: the Ringwraiths were not immortal, at least not in the true sense. They just had prolonged life, and would go wherever any Men went after life on Arda.


My opinion too. 

I just wonder (grrrr, Lhun!!! ) - Did the Ringwraiths, just as well as the Oathbreakers, being in both worlds, know what would happen to their souls, where their souls would go when released by the spells holding them within Arda? 
And if so, don't you feel a difference in their attitude on this matters? I mean - the wraiths were as if horrified to really perish while real and final death to the Oathbreakers seems as a long-longed relief... 

I know such subject goes into the "fields" of imagination and deductions more than of reason and firm evidence, but still...


----------



## Arvedui (Jun 5, 2003)

Complicated, Lhun. Complicated.
But, no. I do not think the Ringwraiths knew what would happen to their souls. I don't even think they pondered that for one bit. They were living for the moment, doing what their Master told them.
But, if they had been able to understand what was to come later, then I suppose they would have been horrified at the thought of facing the judgement of Ilúvatar:
Eru: "What have you sorry lot got to say for yourselves, then?
Nazgûl: "Well you see, we were tricked by this jeweler that gave us these beautiful rings, and before we knew it, our free will was gone...."

I would not have liked to be in their shoes, at that moment. They received the Rings because of their inborne greed, and lust for power.

Opposed to the Oathbreakers who had been forced to never leave Arda, until they had corrected their mistake from earlier years, and were now granted peace afterwards.


----------



## Lhunithiliel (Jun 5, 2003)

******
Eru: "What have you sorry lot got to say for yourselves, then?

Nazgûl: "Well you see, we were tricked by this jeweler that gave us these beautiful rings, and before we knew it, our free will was gone...."

Eru: Didn't I tell you that you Men are my children and I am your true Master? Why did you obey the false masters? 

Nazgûl: Ah! But where have YOU been all this time, Master?! You promissed us free will and proclaimed us as your "proteges"...But all we knew was wars and evil and darkness in our lands...! We needed power and we got it!
******

Imagnation, I know, but it also hints!


----------



## Arvedui (Jun 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lhunithiliel _
> *******
> Eru: "What have you sorry lot got to say for yourselves, then?
> 
> ...


Eru: "But the power you sought, was the power to dominate others, and thus to impose your will on others, and thus limit their free will!"

And thus we can go on and on, touching matters discussed before concerning the Athrabeth, and the Second Fall of Men,and so on, and so on...

Maybe Elgee could re-instate the Court of Middle-earth: Eru vs. Nazgûl?
********

Ooops, what a sorry sidetrack! 
The point here, IMO, is that the Nazgûl exercised their Free Will when lusting for power, they accepted the Rings from Sauron. At that moment, they also turned away from Ilúvatar, thus not having the right to came back afterwards and demand that Ilúvatar should have protected them. Ilúvatar's main concern was Eä, of which Arda was just one part. And he set the Valar to take care of that for him, just like the Webmaster has choosen Moderators to run TTF on behalf of him. (Sorry, couldn't resist that one , but the point is there, just on a much smaller scale)
Ilúvatar could not in any practical sense be aware of every one individual on Arda, which is why they had to have Free Will in the first place. I think this is best demonstrated in The Silmarillion when Aulë has created the Dwarves:


> And the voice of Ilúvatar said to him: 'Why hast thou done this? Why dost thou attempt a thing which thou knowest is beyond thy power and thy authority? For thou hast from me as a gift thy own being only, and no more; and *therefore the creatures of thy hand and mind can live only by that being, moving when thou thinkest to move them, and if thou thought be elsewhere, standing idle.* Is that thy desire?'


----------



## Lantarion (Jun 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Arvedui_
> gate7ole, IMO, made the most convincing connections, and I believe he is right: the Ringwraiths were not immortal, at least not in the true sense. They just had prolonged life, and would go wherever any Men went after life on Arda.


Gate's case is good, but I'm still unconvinced.. Does that mean that the Ringwraiths would have died naturally at some poinnt?? Just keeled over on some evil mission? 
It is a possibility, certainly; and Sauron could corrupt nine new Men into his service as Nazgûl.. But still the idea that they could have died naturally seems very silly to me. As I have seen it, the Nazgûl exist if the Ring exists, or if Sauron exists.


----------



## Lhunithiliel (Jun 5, 2003)

Ah! But it all depends on what is to be understood by _death_ of a mortal, doesn't it?!
For if this concerns the body only... well nothing to wonder so much about.
But I get the impression that it were the fear that Tolkien was much more concerned about and made them much more important than the hroar.
In case of Men... the bodies - visible or not so visible are more easily destroyed.
What about the death of the mortal fea?!


----------



## Lantarion (Jun 5, 2003)

I thought that the fëar were imperishable?


----------



## Arvedui (Jun 5, 2003)

I think I did not present my views clear enough, or at least the way I understood gate7ole.
The Ringwraiths would continue to live, or rather exist, as long as the One Ring existed. Therefore, they would not experience natural death. 
The way I understand it (now) is that as long as the One Ring existed, so did they. 
If it were so, then if the One Ring had not been destroyed, then the Lord of the Nazgûl would have come back after some time.

What do you think of that idea? Does it sound possible? Or was he gone for good?


----------



## Lantarion (Jun 5, 2003)

Hmm, interesting point; but I think when his 'wraithy' texture was permeated, he became mortal, and so he was killed by Éowyn's 'normal' sword. He still had the utterly evil spirit of Sauron in hiim, hence the strange special effects when he passed away.


----------



## gate7ole (Jun 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Arvedui _
> *I think I did not present my views clear enough, or at least the way I understood gate7ole.
> The Ringwraiths would continue to live, or rather exist, as long as the One Ring existed. Therefore, they would not experience natural death.
> The way I understand it (now) is that as long as the One Ring existed, so did they.
> ...


Now this idea sounds possible. Let's try to think of it more.
What would mean if the Lord of the Nazgul returned if the Ring was not destroyed? It would possibly mean that by the destruction of his hroa (by Eowyn), his fea did not leave the circles of the world, but waited soemwhere to heal and return with (possibly) a new hroa under Sauron's command again.
This sounds a little like Morgoth's fate who was diminished in powers and was kept locked in the Void, slowly regaining his powers. Or it sounds like Sauron's return after his death at the Last Alliance.
BUT I see a big difference. Morgoth and Sauron were Ainur, which means (among other things) that they were _confined_ in Ea. They could _not_ escape from it. While, the Men and only them leaved after their physical death.
Now, as I see it Sauron managed to keep the Nagzul inside the circles of Ea, by attaching their fea to a less destructible hroa than their mortal one (which could only happen in the Unseen). Any break of connection with the hroa, might lead to the final disconnection of the fea to a hroa and eventually lead to the freeing of the fea from its bonds with Ea. That means that Eowyn actually _helped_ The Witch-King to escape from his "thraldom".

So, I have to disagree with Arvedui. I don't know if this is correct or consistent with Tolkien's writings. I would very much like to hear other opinions of Arvedui's claim.


----------



## Beleg (Jun 5, 2003)

> Now, as I see it Sauron managed to keep the Nagzul inside the circles of Ea, by attaching their fea to a less destructible hroa than their mortal one (which could only happen in the Unseen). Any break of connection with the hroa, might lead to the final disconnection of the fea to a hroa and eventually lead to the freeing of the fea from its bonds with Ea.



You say that Sauron bounded The Ringwraith's fea to a hroa less destructble then their fragile human ones. My Question is that can he do that? How can the fea be transfered from one body to another body without the destruction of the previous Hroa?


> The Ringwraiths would continue to live, or rather exist, as long as the One Ring existed. Therefore, they would not experience natural death.



My problem with this idea is that if the Ringwraiths were human, their fea aught to leave Middle Earth as soon as the hroa deterorated and died. Such I think was ordained by Eru, but if Sauron was able to withheld their fea from going out of Middle-earth, then was Sauron a bigger power then Eru? (which seems highly unlikely) That gives rise to the question, Was the Original Hroa of Ringwraith ever destroyed? or if you believe gate's theory, then did Sauron had the power to transfer the fea of a being from one hroa to another?


----------



## Lhunithiliel (Jun 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Arvedui _
> The Ringwraiths would continue to live, or rather exist, as long as the One Ring existed. Therefore, they would not experience natural death.
> The way I understand it (now) is that as long as the One Ring existed, so did they.
> If it were so, then if the One Ring had not been destroyed, then the Lord of the Nazgûl would have come back after some time.
> ...


A good topic for my "What if"-game, don't you think!  
Why?
Because:
The Ring not destroyed >> Sauron still exists >> The Lord of the Nazgûl does not actually die under Eowyn's sword >> the battle on Pelennor Fields has quite an opposite outcome >> etc..etc.. 

Because I somehow too understand it that the Ring got hold on those nine once-men's souls not letting them free even if the bodies were destroyed. 
But, on the other hand...could it prove that a Maia at one poin in the history of ME was more powerful than Eru himself if he could control the fate of human souls?!


----------



## gate7ole (Jun 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow _
> *You say that Sauron bounded The Ringwraith's fea to a hroa less destructble then their fragile human ones. My Question is that can he do that? How can the fea be transfered from one body to another body without the destruction of the previous Hroa?
> 
> My problem with this idea is that if the Ringwraiths were human, their fea aught to leave Middle Earth as soon as the hroa deterorated and died. Such I think was ordained by Eru, but if Sauron was able to withheld their fea from going out of Middle-earth, then was Sauron a bigger power then Eru? (which seems highly unlikely) That gives rise to the question, Was the Original Hroa of Ringwraith ever destroyed? or if you believe gate's theory, then did Sauron had the power to transfer the fea of a being from one hroa to another? *


First don't forget that Sauron was a Necromancer. If someone could do it, then I guess it would be Sauron. Remember that he had the Mouth, a Black Numenorean, in his command.
And I don't see it that the fea had to move from one hroa to another. I see it that Sauron altered the original hroa of the Nazgul, by moving it to the Unseen.

edit
After Lhun’s post, I think I will have to clarify my thinking again. I may be wrong, but it seems to me the most plausible explanation.
The Nazgul are connected to the Ring. Without it, they in a way loose their connection with the Unseen, their bodies perish and the freed fear follow the fate of Men (which Sauron can NOT alter). What did Sauron alter was the hroar, which he made stronger and less destructible (by some way of moving it from the Seen to the Unseen). But still, the hroa IS destructible. It was destroyed by Eowyn. Then my guess is that the Witch-King lost his hroa forever and followed the fate of Men, thus not being able to return again.
There is no change in the fate of anyone by Sauron. That is not possible from anyone else besides Eru. Sauron just managed to give them a fake immortality – fake because after their death they don’t get reborn like the Elves, they follow their predetermined fate as Men.


----------



## Lhunithiliel (Jun 5, 2003)

Now THIS makes sense... FAKE immortality... OK...
THIS I can accept! 

For otherwise, the Wraiths could be easily mistaken to have turned into some Maia or... any other sort of immortal spirits. 

So... Are they _immortal_ ? I guess... no ?


----------



## BlackCaptain (Jun 5, 2003)

No, If they were immortal they wouldn't have been destroyed. They're immortal as long as the ring prolongs though... But it didn't so they're not


----------



## archery master (Jun 5, 2003)

*ring raiths immortal?*



> The ring draws them near




Are ring wraiths immortal well as long is the ring is alive they will be


they used to be great kings given nine rings of power so unitl the one ring is destroyed they will live on 
 www,yahoo.com


----------



## BlackCaptain (Jun 5, 2003)

Yes, we've established this about 3 1/2 pages back...  . Why the link to Yahoo? Oh well, it's not nesescary. Welcome to the forum!


----------



## YayGollum (Jun 5, 2003)

Yikes! I missed a lot! oh well. What's that about fake immortality? They were really immortal. just not naturally immortal. It's a bunch of creepy and unfair magical type things that happened to them. Rules are allowed to be broken when you're talking about creepy and unfair magical type things. Anyways, why are people confused about spirits? Every single race in Middle Earth has a spirit. All spirits are immortal. Bodies die. sorry about that. The only mortality type way the Nazgul were different from a normal human is ---> The body doesn't die.


----------



## gate7ole (Jun 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by YayGollum _
> *Yikes! I missed a lot! oh well. What's that about fake immortality? They were really immortal. just not naturally immortal. It's a bunch of creepy and unfair magical type things that happened to them. Rules are allowed to be broken when you're talking about creepy and unfair magical type things. Anyways, why are people confused about spirits? Every single race in Middle Earth has a spirit. All spirits are immortal. Bodies die. sorry about that. The only mortality type way the Nazgul were different from a normal human is ---> The body doesn't die. *


So, you suggest that the Nazgul are really immortal, in the way Elves are, and are confined among the circles of Ea? And that they cannot escape and follow their predetermined fate?
I strongly disagree. But I would like to hear your thoughts on it and the complications of changing Eru's rules (which are stated in the Letters as unchangeable by anyone else)


----------



## Lantarion (Jun 6, 2003)

> _originally posted by YayGollum_
> Yikes! I missed a lot! oh well. What's that about fake immortality? They were really immortal. just not naturally immortal. It's a bunch of creepy and unfair magical type things that happened to them. Rules are allowed to be broken when you're talking about creepy and unfair magical type things. Anyways, why are people confused about spirits? Every single race in Middle Earth has a spirit. All spirits are immortal. Bodies die. sorry about that. The only mortality type way the Nazgul were different from a normal human is ---> The body doesn't die.


Hmm, I see what you mean.. That as a result of Sauron prolonging their lives with his 'dark magicks' their _fëar_ might have somehow become disattached from Arda... It's possible, but I doubt it nonetheless.
Anyway, what do you mean by the last sentence (which I show coloured)? If you mean that the bodies of the Nazgûl do not die, I'm afraid you're mistaken: that is shown by at least the events at the Ford of Bruinen..

But so far I think we've reached trh conclusion that the Nazgûl had (Quoting my post on the first page) "unending life as long as the Ring existed. Agreed? 

Edit: Moved to Hall of Fire from Books: LotR


----------



## YayGollum (Jun 6, 2003)

Of course I agree with that last thing. Anyways, 

gate7ole person ---> Where do you come up with all of that craziness? I thought I was pretty clear with what I think about the Nazgulish creepy immortality stuff. Sure, I guess you could say that they're confined, but only as long as the One Ring was around to let the nine human rings work. Also, sure, I guess you could say that they can't escape and get to do whatever the human spirits usually do, but only as long as the One Ring was around to let the nine human rings work. I'm not saying that the nine human rings messed with them spiritually. I'm saying that it messed with them physically. 

About that Ford of Bruinen thing, I'm not a huge expert on names of things that I don't care about. What part of the story was that?


----------



## Lantarion (Jun 6, 2003)

The Nazgûl were all "killed" in the sense that their bodily forms were destroyed by the flood caused by Elrond and Gandalf.


----------



## YayGollum (Jun 7, 2003)

Who says that their bodies died then? I don't see that written anywhere. Maybe you have other creepy little bookses that not a lot of people have. I don't know.


----------



## Ithrynluin (Jun 7, 2003)

I also don't think that their bodies were destroyed in the flood.



> _The Fellowship of the Ring; Many Meetings_
> 'And is that the end of the Black Riders?' asked Frodo.
> 'No,' said Gandalf. 'Their horses must have perished, and without them they are crippled. But the Ringwraiths themselves cannot be so easily destroyed. However, there is nothing more to fear from them at present.



Gandalf supposes that their horses perished but not the Ringwraiths themselves. '_the Ringwraiths themselves cannot be so easily destroyed_' makes me think that they can only perish in the same manner as the Witch-king - being slain by a special weapon that negates the spell that binds their invisible flesh together.


----------



## BlackCaptain (Jun 7, 2003)

Excelent observation, but what about when they aren't in physical form? Could a weapon harm them then? I think it strange that they could be destroyed if their physical bodies are "killed". And, the Nazgul are far more fearsome when not in physical form, so why would they even bother with the risk of getting destroyed, and not being as fear implanting?


----------



## Ithrynluin (Jun 7, 2003)

Yes I find that interesting too.



> And, the Nazgul are far more fearsome when not in physical form, so why would they even bother with the risk of getting destroyed, and not being as fear implanting?



Yes they are more fearsome when unclad, but can they actually tamper with the physical world when invisible? I think they need to become visible in order to be able to interact with the material world.


----------



## BlackCaptain (Jun 7, 2003)

Well what all did they accomplish in physical form besides stab Frodo? In the siege of Minas Tirith all they did was fly up high and scare the Gondorians so badly that some went crazy. They were much more hands off as enemies. Surely they could have been more effective during the siege if they were more fearsome, and far less visible.


----------



## gate7ole (Jun 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *Yes I find that interesting too.
> 
> 
> ...


What do you mean to become visible? Did I lose something? I though that they could only get a shape by wearing something. Or do you mean that visible means to move more in the world of Seen, thus getting other abilities (like you said tamper with objects), but never actually become visible to others?


----------



## Beleg (Jun 7, 2003)

> I though that they could only get a shape by wearing something



That's what I think too. My personal view is that their the robes they wear act as a skin to their inner, cursed flesh. These robes give their shapeless bodies some definate shape and a humanly touch.



> being slain by a special weapon that negates the spell that binds their invisible flesh together.



Seems like that back at the time of the Northern people, a lot of people knew about Necromencry and such arts. But that's another discussion.


----------



## BlackCaptain (Jun 7, 2003)

I wouldn't say that they have bodies. They are Wraiths, lets not forget that. They can be given bodies, and their bodies can be clothed, but they themselves, un-bodied are themselves in their natural form. And they are more frightening in that form may I add...


----------



## gate7ole (Jun 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by BlackCaptain _
> *I wouldn't say that they have bodies. They are Wraiths, lets not forget that. They can be given bodies, and their bodies can be clothed, but they themselves, un-bodied are themselves in their natural form. And they are more frightening in that form may I add... *


I disagree. They had bodies. It was just that their bodies were invisible (which was the effect of their moving in the Unseen). 
Note that for someone to be able to hold something (like for example the horse), he must also be able to have body. Something bodiless (like a wraith of our conception), cannot have any interaction with things. I'd like to repeat that we shouldn't confuse the modern definitions of some words (immortality, wraith) with the way Tolkien used them


----------



## BlackCaptain (Jun 7, 2003)

Hmm... That makes sense. I see what you're saying now. But I don't understand how if it is just invisible it can't hold things in it's hand, or interact with the world.


----------



## Lhunithiliel (Jun 8, 2003)

First, as to the bodies of the Ringwraiths - invisible or not; shape or no shape...etc.

Well, if they became visible under some clothing they must have had bodies! Otherwise the clothes would have nothing to be put on, don't you think?  So bodies they must have had all right.

Were these bodies invisible however? ... Hard to say for as you have provided quotes and as it is well known from the places where the wraiths were described in the books, it always happens that whenever a wraith is "killed" the swords never truly *pierce* a real flesh, or their manles are found empty of any bodyly form whatsoever ... the swords are destroyed when they pierce the mantles of the wraiths; every normal human thing or/and part of body when touches a wraith gets sick... Starnge facts that leave such a mystery about the real shape of the wraiths.... 
If however I try to trace the logic (not quite a wise move in the realms of fantasy ) - they were once Men, so human bodies they must have had. Invisible these bodies must have been only to the other people (Men) when the wraiths walked in the world of the dead spirits (remember? they dwelled in both worlds!). 
I suspect that the wraiths dwelled much more time in that other - spiritual and immaterial world than in the material one. And when they were in the world of spirits and yet around in some place of the material world - their presence must have been scary !!! (The same is the case with the oathbreakers.) THIS was their true power! And I guess they must have been quite well aware of the effect they had on their race-fellows and that must have made them so self-assured - for power they had seeked for and power they had got over the race of mortals!

Now, there is sth. interesting I found while reading the Lost Road - "The Fall of Numenor", that concerns the souls of the ringwraiths IMO:


> And the mortal warriors that had set foot in the land of the Gods were burried under the fallen hills, where legend saith  that they lie imprisoned in the Forgotten Caves until the day of Doom and the Last Battle.


"the Forgotten Caves" = later changed into "the Caves of the Forgotten".
So.... .... I know this legend did not survive in the Published Silmarillion, but still I find it as quite an interesting thought! And it gives me a reason to believe that Tolkien really tried hard to find a "suitable " place for the souls of the dead mortal men within the world he himself had created. I remember clearly reading somewhere else in the HoMe volumes about these "Caves" and I remember how Tolkien there placed thouse wretched souls and how some were summoned by some Maiar or/and Valar to dwell in their respective halls while awaiting for the final judgment and departure...Where to? No one actually knew and the Gods in fact seemed to not care! (I am sorry but I just can't find that quote right now  ).

Anyway, the point is that perhaps Tolkien had created those "Caves of the Forgotten" to "send" there the souls of those Men who had sinned against the rules set by their creator.
Which, after all, can prove that no matter what powers the Ringwraiths had had, eventually their souls when reliesed by Sauron's magic or powers, had the same fate as all other mortal men. I wonder only.....perhaps their souls were never permitted to leave Arda as such permission was given to other mortals who had not sinned against Eru....

Another interesting passage from the same book:


> ...And they knew that the fate of Men was not bounded by the round path of the world,nor destined for the straight path. For the round is crooked and has no end but no escape; and the straight is true, but has an end within the world, and that is the fate of the Elves. But the fate ofMen, they said, is neither round nor ended, and is not within the world. ...


Amazingly well explained! Isn't it?! Whithin the overall concept of Arda and its inhabitants!!!
So, I brought this passage to once again prove that Tolkien seems to had firmly made up his mind about the fate of Men and their souls right from the start of creating his mythology. 
"_Men are mortal, but their souls are not bounded within the world of Arda, and after their bodies perish, their souls are summoned to the Halls of Eru - their creator" - this is how I personally understand this part of Tolkien's philosophy. And if I'm right, then this must be the fate of the Ringwraiths as well... 

Meaning .... 
Ha!!!   
Have I just reached a conclusion that the race considered "mortal" is more "IMmortal" than Gods even?!?!_


----------



## gate7ole (Jun 8, 2003)

Lhun, we are moving off the main topic, but the issue you raised is always very interesting.
The discussion of Finrod and Andreth is very educative in this topic, as you know. I could quote some parts but it would be better to read all of it  But in summary, Finrod says that since their fate is unknown after the end of Time, Men should consider themselves luckier that the Elves, knowing that Eru has a plan for them.
Of course, I don’t believe that the fate of the Elves ends with Arda. Eru could not have created such a wonderful race, only to use it as “teachers” for the Followers, the race of Men. That there is no lore of this fate, it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. Maybe Eru deliberately concealed it from the Elves, to make them more attached to Arda, not knowing that there is an “afterlife” for them.
As, for the Ainur, I don’t believe that their existence ends with the end of Time, since 1. they existed before Arda, thus they cannot end when Arda ends and 2. they would rebuild Arda with the help of Men.
Concluding, Men aren’t more immortal than Elves and the Gods


----------



## Lhunithiliel (Jun 8, 2003)

> Lhun, we are moving off the main topic, but the issue you raised is always very interesting.


No, I don’t think we have gone too far from it !  Why?! To understand the concept of Tolkien about the race of men and the final fate and purpose would explain, IMHO, the fate of the souls of the ringwraiths and we could come to some conclusion – _mortal_ or _immortals_ they are.
But then again, I understand that the concept of immortality is to be understaood only within Arda it self. The _All-mighty_ obviously does not allow anybody to peep in his halls without his permission and all we can do is to stand in frant of the “gate”   and wander and ponder over what is in there where the souls of Men go! 



> The discussion of Finrod and Andreth is very educative in this topic, as you know. I could quote some parts but it would be better to read all of it But in summary, Finrod says that since their fate is unknown after the end of Time, Men should consider themselves luckier that the Elves, knowing that Eru has a plan for them.


Oh, *I* don’t think that *YOU* think that *I* haven’t read this piece by Tolkien?!? But anyway, thanks for the summary! 



> Of course, I don’t believe that the fate of the Elves ends with Arda. Eru could not have created such a wonderful race, only to use it as “teachers” for the Followers, the race of Men.


Hasn’t Eru created so many wonders which later he let be destroyed?!? 


> That there is no lore of this fate, it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. Maybe Eru deliberately concealed it from the Elves, to make them more attached to Arda, not knowing that there is an “afterlife” for them.


Now *THAT* is away from the present topic, but so very interesting in itself  


> As, for the Ainur, I don’t believe that their existence ends with the end of Time, since 1. they existed before Arda, thus they cannot end when Arda ends and 2. they would rebuild Arda with the help of Men.
> Concluding, Men aren’t more immortal than Elves and the Gods


But they were also created for the purpose of creating Arda itself! What if Eru had planned for them to perish after he takes it up all in his authority again? When their task will be completed – will he need them any more? What for? After all, they did not cope too well with the task.
Now...*THIS* is completely OUT of the topic!


----------



## Beleg (Jun 8, 2003)

> What if Eru had planned for them to perish after he takes it up all in his authority again?


Big what if!


> Of course, I don’t believe that the fate of the Elves ends with Arda.



That produces the question, "After the End??"
That also leads upto the Question, What was the purpose behind creating the Children?





> Hasn’t Eru created so many wonders which later he let be destroyed?!?



Elves are a bit different, they are proclaimed as the Children of Eru and surely Eru wouldn't want the children becoming Distinct??
Besides, Elves are a major participants in the running of Arda, imagine them as the King on chess board. The chess master would bear the sacrifice of his pawns, for it would be necessary to gain bigger objectives in the end, but not the Queen, without whom the whole game is useless.

A far-fetched idea, but still an idea. 



> When their task will be completed – will he need them any more? What for?



The same Question can be asked, did he needed to produce Elves and Men and Maia? What for?


----------



## gate7ole (Jun 8, 2003)

> _originally posted by Lhunithiliel_
> Hasn’t Eru created so many wonders which later he let be destroyed?!?


Hey, wait a minute, that’s heretic (or should I say unconventional  ).
What wonders did Eru create and later let them be destroyed? Any examples? Because if you have in mind things like the Silmarils, the Two Trees, Númenor etc, then I have to disagree. 
1. He did not create them, his children (Ainur + Elves + Men) did.
2. He did not let them be destroyed (like neglecting them). The behaviour of his children caused the destruction, which might be altered if they had acted differently
On the other hand a possible elimination of a whole race (like the Elves) after the end of Time, would not fall in the same category. It would be a predetermined plan, a cruel act of llúvatar, which would not be changed by the actions of the related people (Elves). It would not be a way of “punishment” towards them, since whatever their behaviour through the course of history, the result would still be the same: since they had served their purpose, they were unneeded.
If you think so low of Eru, you can accept this. From my part, I hope in a better fate for the Elves.



> What for? After all, they did not cope too well with the task.


I think we must have a debate on this matter sometime  . You always accuse the Ainur of failing in their tasks.  

And I know you have read “Athrabeth”. You are quoting from it all the time. 


PS.
Maybe we should start a new thread on the matter and leave this one for the Ringwraiths


----------



## Lhunithiliel (Jun 8, 2003)

Debate against you, agapi mu?   
Well, that will be something!
But ... we'll see.... we'll live and see...

Meanwhile, what happened to the wraiths? 

_*mortal*_ or _*immortal*_ ?

I say... when we finally reach an agreement on this question, would someone like to write an essay on the subject?
I promise I'll make him/her _*immortal*_ by placing the essay on the Tolkien Wiki - knowledgebase!  
Think about it!
Volunteers? 

Now...back to the topic.


----------



## Arvedui (Jun 8, 2003)

I'd say the wraiths were mortal!
What finally convinced me was gate7ole's post after my question about what would happen to the Lord of the Nazgûl if th eRing was not destroyed.
Which is why I have not replied anymore after that. I thought his post was brilliant, and nothing after that have managed to convince that it was flawed in some way.


> I think we must have a debate on this matter sometime . You always accuse the Ainur of failing in their tasks.


Very interesting. I would be happy to join if that would be possible?


----------



## gate7ole (Jun 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Arvedui _
> *Very interesting. I would be happy to join if that would be possible? *


Why not? Just which side do you prefer, mine or Lhun's?


----------



## Nautilus (Jun 8, 2003)

*immortality*

If we are to rely on Tolkien's own words, the Ringwraiths were neither living nor dead, neither material nor immaterial and neither in this world nor in that of the Unseen. They were all the time somewhere "in between", dwelling in a semi-material body which could be seen only by spirits like themselves or like the Ainur(Sauron could see their true appearance, seemingly, even when He did not wear the Ring, unlike Frodo) and interacting with the natural world in a strange manner.

According to the description made by Gandalf to Frodo, the Nazgûl did not perceive the world as earthly creatures do:

1. Their eyesight was very poor in daylight, but rather satisfactory at night, somehow like an owl's, but they did not see "images" of things as we do; rather each thing watched created an "image" of itself directly into the mind of the Ringwraith:



> They themselves do not see the world of light as we do, but our shapes cast shadows in their minds, which only the noon sun destroys; and in the dark they perceive many signs and forms that are hidden from us: then they are most to be feared


 - LOTR I,11 A Knife in the Dark

2. They could feel things even if they could not see them:



> Senses, too, there are other than sight or smell. We can feel their presence - it troubled our hearts as we came here, and before we saw them; they feel ours more keenly


 - LOTR I,11 A Knife in the Dark

3. Another quote, more explicit, about their perception:



> If the Ring overcomes you, you yourself become permanently invisible - and it is a horrible cold feeling. Everything becomes very faint like grey ghost pictures against the black background in which you live; but you can smell more clearly than you can hear or see. You have no power however like a Ring of making other things invisible: you are a ringwraith. You can wear clothes.....But you are under the command of the Lord of the Rings


 - The Return of the Shadow - Of Gollum and the Ring

4. Yet another:



> became not only invisible to all in this world, if they wished, but could see both the world under the sun and the other side in which invisible things move



The picture we get from here is that of demon-like beings. Like demons, the Nazgûl are able to capture themselves the "soul"/will of a living being:



> They tried to pierce your heart with a Morgul-kife which remains in the wound. If they had succeeded, you would have become like they are, only weaker and under their command. You would have become a wraith under the dominion of the Dark Lord


 - 1 LOTR II,1 Many Meetings.

OK, that's enough.

The perception of a Ringwraith was not directly on topic, but it could cast some light on the true nature of those beings, and also shatter some idiotic myths like "they could not see"(then, how did they fight, for Sauron's sake!?).

These half-material, half-spiritual beings were therefore a sort of demons. But a special kind, since they had once been Men. They had not been separated entirely from their bodies, because in this form they could not handle objects, so they would have been unable to fight for Sauron, which had originally been the purpose of creating them. But they could be "dematerialized" like they disappeared from their cloaks when stabbed. This is an Ainur-like ability, gained via their Rings. 

Could the Rings make these "volatile" bodies immortal? Apparently they did not act on the bodies themselves. Gollum haf wielded the One Ring, stronger than the Nine, for 500 years, and yet he did not become a wraith. But his body got deformed, as the Ring had amplified the will of survival; and this will of survival had kept his body together, slowing his biological decay and prolonging his life. His mind controlled his body. Since he was not adapted for underground life, yet he could not dare to live under the Sun, his will, focused through the Ring, had modified his body in order to allow better chances of survival.

Since the Nazgûl lived in different conditions, their Rings had modified them in different ways. Their bodies had become invulnerable to common weapons, and to aging, until some enchanted weapon couldhave broken the original spell. Their senses also evolved. Their spirits/fear were also trapped by the Rings' power. They had "lost their will" in the sense that they still had personal initiative(they were not witless robots) but they were entirely devoted to Sauron and able only to do things in his benefit.

What happens when a trapped spirit is released, by death? Spirits of all beings are immortal, Elves and Men and Dwarves and Ainur and so on. Elves go to Halls of Mandos and expect a new life; Dwarves go also to the Halls of Mandos and remain there until the end of time, since Eru did not have a plan for them originally. Men pass through the halls to a place only known by Eru. And Orcs and spirits under the Shadow, what do they do? If Orcs were genetically-engineered Elves, as Tolkien had left to understand, do they also go to the Halls of Mandos, and bring Sauron's evilness inside the Blessed Realm itself? What do corrupted Ainur do? Did Saruman get back to Valinor?

No.

Saruman's spirit, which headed west, was pushed back by a wind and thrown somewhere in a remote place of the world. The same thng happened to the "diminished" Sauron, after the One Ring got destroyed.

Apparently, corrupted spirits, like evil Ainur, or Nazgûl, or even Orcs, in the hypothesis of their death(breaking of the material body) are not allowed to return, unless they regret their deeds, and answer to the summons of the Valar, like Sauron was asked by Eonwe to do after the War of Wrath. As he refused, he was not brought in by force - simply left to wander in Arda.

This seems to be the fate of the Ringwraiths themselves: unable to live further, unable to return to Valinor, unable to gain new bodies, are left to wander the Arda until the end of time, like some ghosts, devoid of all power and keeping just thier grief. A horrible fate, the fate of a tormented spirit with no place to rest, forever wanderer, the fate which Elves themselves feared more than anything(see Elrond's speech to Arwen in the FOTR film). Could a greater punishment for their deeds ever be?

~Best regards,

Nautilus


----------



## Lhunithiliel (Jun 9, 2003)

WOW!!!
THAT was a convincing post!!!! 

Nautilus, first of all, WELCOME TO THE FORUM!!!!! 

Excellent observations! Just EXCELLENT !

Two things that your post made me think of:

1/ How in fact, do you all think, did Gandalf know so well of how a ringwraith feels and perceives the surrounding worlds he lived in?
From the quotes Nautilus provided it becomes obvious that he knew very well that. HOW?
I can only speculate by saying that Gandalf- being a Maia himself, must have had the same abilities and the state of the ringwraiths - them having been given some Maia features, was well known to him! Otherwise how could he describe it all so in details?

2/ I also was very much intrigued by the thought that evil spirits coming to the Blessed Realm (even if it was to the Halls of Mandos only ) could "infect" the realm itself and perhaps that's why too much evil spirits like Saruman's for example was "chased away" from there and never let enter! 
Now... really an interesting thought!!! That might be also the fate of the souls of the Nazgul, too. It just may be that their souls when released by the power of the Ring were not admitted to the Halls of Mandos (those for Men, of course) neither they could proceed their "journey" further on to wherever Eru gathered them. 

Hmmmm.... 'should think about it....


----------



## Arvedui (Jun 9, 2003)

Welcome to the Forum, Nautilus!
What a marvellous post!

I must say that you have left me absolutely flabbergasted by that one! Very intriguing indeed.

It rasies an interesting question:
Could it possibly be that some souls are left to wander aimlessly around Arda, without ever finding peace?
IMO, this counters everything I have read of the Professors work, and therefore makes it hard to accept. But on the other hand, Tolkien never said much about the fate of the servants of Morgoth and Sauron, did he?

But how can someone be borth mortal and immortal, as your post seems to indicate?



> Why not? Just which side do you prefer, mine or Lhun's?


I don't know which side you take, but I think the Ainur failed rather miserably, or at least until Fëanor rebelled.


----------



## Lhunithiliel (Jun 14, 2003)

In another thread I messed up their topic with sth. that should have been here.
So I have decided to not "torture" any Mod and using the easy c&p - method to transfer it to this thread because IMO it has to do much more with this topic.

So here is a summary:



> Lhun: And all this, interesting in itself, brings to my mind a question...
> 
> What could it be that held the Nazgul in subordination to Sauron?
> 
> ...





> Arvedui: For some reason, I am thinking of a device called the Ruling Ring.
> quote:
> ---------------------------------------
> One Ring to rule them all...
> ---------------------------------------





> Lhun: Oooo, common! LOL
> 
> All right ... I'll alter the question:
> 
> ...





> Arvedui: Darn, I liked the first question better. It was a lot easier to answer.
> 
> The only thing I can think of, is that Sauron poured a lot of his will into that piece of jewelry. And that it was his will that worked through the Ring, holding the Ringwraiths loyal.





> Lhun:Now.... this is what Sauron would loose NOT the wraiths!





> Yay: What did the Ruling Ring hold the ringwraiths with?
> 
> Hm? Hold them with? Surgical gloves? No. Evil and unfair magic, I would think.
> 
> ...


Well, this is it.

What do you say?

What would the wraiths lose if they did not experience the power of the rings - resp. of Sauron, upon them? What did they fear so much as to stay subbordinate to the will of Sauron?

I'm thinking about it and all I can think of is that they must have understood that without the Ring and through it - the intervention of Sauron, they will die in the very literal sense of the word. 
I am quite sure they did NOT like such an alternative!!! After all most of them were exiled Numenoreans with the ever-lasting wish of the people from this nation to reach immortality.

Opinions?


----------



## YayGollum (Jun 15, 2003)

What's that about fear? I thought that they were already reprogrammed by Sauron. Didn't have much of a will left. The WitchKing guy probably had the most since it looks like he might just have a personality. Or maybe he's just so messed up that he's a copy of Sauron's personality? I don't know. We're still talking about immortality? We haven't decided that they definitely were?


----------



## BlackCaptain (Jun 15, 2003)

Well they definately aren't because, Hey look! They were destroyed! They're immortal as long as the Ring is around... we've settled that I think.


----------



## Lhunithiliel (Jun 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by YayGollum _
> We're still talking about immortality? We haven't decided that they definitely were?


Have you read the post by Nautilus?
I have accepted his theory.
And I am backing it up with my understanding that if obly Men could have known better their real fate after their bodies die, the wouldn't have been the lust for immortality, therefore - no power of Sauron over Men, hence - no ringwraiths.  

I'm now developing the topic.


----------



## Nautilus (Jun 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by YayGollum _
> *What's that about fear? I thought that they were already reprogrammed by Sauron. Didn't have much of a will left. The WitchKing guy probably had the most since it looks like he might just have a personality. Or maybe he's just so messed up that he's a copy of Sauron's personality? I don't know. We're still talking about immortality? We haven't decided that they definitely were?  *



The Ringwraiths *did* have a will of their own, and their own personality - they were not robots! They were just compelled, by some means to use their personality, intelligence, strength etc in Sauron's benefit and in no way against Him. Most possibly, the Rings they had owned increased some of their natural desires(of power, long life etc) in the way they did no longer conceive life without the power they wielded, and they did no longer conceive their own death either. From that point, a person so cunning as Sauron could easily manipulate them like puppets, using His own Ruling Ring to focus His will.

~Nautilus


----------



## YayGollum (Jun 16, 2003)

BlackCaptain person ---> Even though these people have said that we're not talking about immortality anymore, why do you think they weren't immortal? Or do you only say that someone is immortal if they're naturally that way? I wouldn't think so. Looks like they're just unnaturally immortal thanks to the rings. They won't die of old age as long as they're messed with by creepy magic. 

Lhunithiliel person ---> Yes, I read the thing. I was just dwelling on old things. Whoops!

Nautilus person ---> Okay, okay, okay. They weren't robots. You say that they were compelled to do evil things. That Sauron manipulated them. Sounds similar. They were brainwashed. I don't see very much evidence that these guys still had personalities, but whatever you say. I still don't get what that has to do with fear.


----------



## Ithrynluin (Jun 16, 2003)

Yay, _fëa_, plural _fëar_ means the spirit of a being. A _hröa_ is the house - the body.


----------

