# Palantir message interception by Denethor against Saruman?



## Hisoka Morrow (Feb 28, 2022)

All the Palantir users could intercept all the message between all the users synchronously, thus...how did Saruman avoid Denethor's message interception? Any idea?


----------



## HALETH✒🗡 (Feb 28, 2022)

Denethor became almost mad.


----------



## Hisoka Morrow (Feb 28, 2022)

HALETH✒🗡 said:


> Denethor became almost mad.


Really a good point, a intellectually-challenged guy would really do nothing to handle Saruman. 
But my dear, far after Saruman was done, Denethor was still at least partially intellectually-healthy, according to his still not-bad performance such as assembly's job efficiency of martial laws, military operations against Mordor and so on, till he witnessed Faramir's seeming death.
So, his madness could be only partial reasons.


----------



## HALETH✒🗡 (Feb 28, 2022)

In addition, all palantirs became dangerous after Sauron had started using one of them. Saruman was influenced by Sauron with the help of the palantirs. So, Denethor could be influenced by both Sauron and Saruman. That is the reason why Aragorn and Gandalf didn't try to intercept messages when they got the palantir.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 28, 2022)

To answer the OP question, he couldn't. Here are a couple of quotes from _Unfinished Tales_:

_The palantiri could not themselves survey men's minds,, at unawares or unwilling; for the transference of thought depended on the _wills _of the user on either side, and thought (received as speech) was only transmittable by one Stone to another in accord.

. . .only the Master Stone of Osgiliath could 'eavesdrop'. While two of the other Stones were in response, the third would find them both blank._

In other words, they didn't operate like radios, whose transmissions could be intercepted.


----------



## Ealdwyn (Feb 28, 2022)

HALETH✒🗡 said:


> Denethor became almost mad.


Where is the evidence of this "madness"?

Denethor was "noble and powerful", "a masterful lord and a great leader". He held Gondor back from the brink for *decades*. He used the Palantir for many years, as did Saruman. But while Saruman fell under the domination of Sauron and desired his victory, Denethor remained steadfast in his rejection of Sauron. Remember, Aragorn only _"barely"_ had the strength to do that!

Denethor was a man of great strength of will, and maintained the integrity of his personality - until the loss of Boromir and the final blow of Faramir's (apparent) mortal wound. Then in his most vulnerable moment - a father grieving the loss of both his sons - he was made to believe that Sauron's victory was inevitable, and so fell into despair.

He didn't kill himself out of madness - Denethor’s suicide was defiant! He was denying Sauron his and Faramir’s body to defile. He was denying Sauron whatever torment or agonising death he had planned for them: _‘neither life diminished, nor love halved, nor honour abated.’ _The act of Denethor burning himself and Faramir was not about madness, but about love and dignity.

Denethor is only "mad" if your believe Peter Jackson's fanfic. Anything unforgivable you think Denethor did either did not happen in the books, or was misconstrued or interpreted in a way that it shouldn't have been. Denethor is more sane and understandable than most give him credit for.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 28, 2022)

I'd certainly agree about PJ's character assassination of Denethor -- nearly as bad as what he wreaked on Faramir. And Gandalf himself stressed his power, dignity, and wisdom, when talking with Pippin.

But Haleth is correct, IMO, as seen from other words of Gandalf:

_'Since when has the Lord of Gondor been answerable to thee?' said Denethor. 'Or may I not command my own servants?'

'You may,' said Gandalf. 'But others may contest your will, when it it is turned to madness and evil.'_

And:

_'. . .yet the vision of the great might of Mordor that was shown to him fed the despair of his heart until it overthrew his mind.'_


----------



## Alcuin (Mar 17, 2022)

As regards “eavesdropping” on conversations between users of palantíri, Tolkien makes some observations. (Pardon the pun.) Two users having a conversation, say, between Saruman and Sauron, or earlier between Elendil and Isildur, could not be eavesdropped or listened by another user, _except…_

There were two stones in Middle-earth that did permit “eavesdropping”. 

The stone of Osgiliath was the chief palantír of Gondor, and apparently all the lesser stones of Gondor – Minas Ithil (Minas Morgul), Minas Anor (Minas Tirith), and Angrenost (Isengard) – were subject to being monitored by that stone. 

The stone of Amon Sûl (Weathertop) seems to have been the chief palantír of Middle-earth. Any communication involving the stone of Annúminas would seem to be subject to monitoring by the stone of Amon Sûl, and perhaps the stones of Gondor as well. 

Communication between Arnor and Gondor after the deaths of King Ondoher and his sons Artamir and Faramir in battle with the Wainriders, when Arvedui of Arnor claimed the throne of Gondor as senior kinsman of the Anárioni (Heirs of Anárion) and on behalf of his of wife, Fíriel, Ondoher’s only surviving child, was probably conducted using the Stone of Amon Sûl (by that time removed to Fornost) and one of the lesser stones of Gondor, most likely that of Minas Anor, since the Stone of Osgiliath had been lost during Gondor’s Kin-strife. 

The Stone of Elostirion, “Elendil’s Stone”, was not in accord with the other six palantíri of Middle-earth, but looked only to Avallónë in the Far West, even at the end of the Third Age. This, I believe, was because its original purpose was so that Elendil’s father Amandil might remain in communication with his friends among the Eldar of Avallónë after Ar-Gimilzôr, twenty-third (of the twenty-five) King of Númenor who was at covetous enmity with the Eldar, forbade their sailing from Avallónë to Númenor; the other six stones were so that Amandil and his descendents might communicate in secret among one another in despite of the misrule of their kinsmen, the misguided rulers of late Númenórean history. Gildor and the other Elves (apparently all Noldor) whom Frodo and his companions met in the Woody End, disrupting the approach of the Nazgûl Khamûl, were returning from a pilgrimage to look into Elendil’s Stone, where they had apparently seen a vision of Elbereth upon Taniquetil. After the deaths of Elendil and Isildur, none of the Isildurioni (the Heirs of Isildur) ever looked into that Stone again. When Elrond departed Middle-earth, he took the Stone of Elendil with him, forever severing all ties between Middle-earth and Aman. 

There is somewhere a comment by JRRT that the Master Stone remained in Avallónë. If it possessed the same powers as the Stones of Amon Sûl and Osgiliath, we _might_ presume that it could ”eavesdrop” on any conversation between users of two stones. 

The palantíri were made by Fëanor in the deeps of Time, before the Rising of the Moon and Sun, so that one who used them could see with the sight of the Eagles of Manwë. 

Denethor was aware of the true identity of “Thorondor”, his father’s chief captain beloved by all (save Denethor, apparently), before Thorondor overthrew the Captain of the Corsairs and burned their ships in Umbar, so also before Thorondor departed Gondor. But I think it was Sauron who pointed out to Denethor that the Heir of Isildur was approaching – both Sauron and Denethor seemed to have believed the Heir of Isildur was coming with the cavalry of Rohan: neither suspected Aragorn’s victory over the Corsairs at Pelargir, hence Denethor’s assumption that Pelargir had fallen and the Men of Umbar, Gondor’s sworn enemies from ancient days, were sailing to join the assault upon Minas Tirith. While he could not overcome Denethor’s mind or purposes because _Denethor’s use of the palantír of Anor as its Ruling Steward was legitimate_ if redeless (and even “redeless” might be disputed), Sauron could control much of what Denethor saw using his palantír: thus Denethor lost all hope and fell into despair after Faramir’s apparently mortal wound when he saw the Black Ships of Umbar laboring slowly up the Anduin toward Minas Tirith. (To be fair, Sauron might also have mistaken the Black Ships for his own Corsairs, though perhaps he knew the difference, and the Witch-king’s predawn assault upon the Gates of the City was a desperate attempt to take the City before the Dúnedain of the southern fiefs arrived to join the fray; but for myself, I believe neither Denethor nor Sauron knew of Aragorn’s success in the southern fiefs.)


----------

