# How did Sauron not find the Three Rings beforehand?



## BalrogRingDestroyer (May 17, 2018)

The elves were afraid that Sauron would be able to control their Rings if he got the One Ring back. However, since the Three Rings were supposedly made BEFORE Isildur cut the One Ring from Sauron's hand, then why didn't Sauron find the Three earlier when he HAD the One Ring?

Also, if it's argued that Sauron didn't know the Three existed and hence wouldn't have looked for them before, why would he look now? Did he find out they existed somehow? 

As far as I know, unlike the One Ring, the Seven Rings, and the Nine Rings, the Three Rings were NOT used for power, wealth, or conquest but only for defense and preservation. As such, I don't see what Sauron could do with them anyway. He likes to corrupt things so the power of preservation would be useless to him. As for defense, I suppose he could lower their defenses, but he'd have to master their wills first. As he built the One to control the 9 and the 7, I'm not sure he knew about the three, as it says that they remained hidden from him.


Also, did the Three die when the One Ring died? I mean, did Lorien and Rivendale catch up to the rest of time when the One perished? (It was never outright stated, but the fact that Galadriel and Elrond eventually went to Valinor makes me think that the Three stopped operating. Or would they have left anyway even if the Three lasted forever?)


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## CirdanLinweilin (May 17, 2018)

BalrogRingDestroyer said:


> The elves were afraid that Sauron would be able to control their Rings if he got the One Ring back. However, since the Three Rings were supposedly made BEFORE Isildur cut the One Ring from Sauron's hand, then why didn't Sauron find the Three earlier when he HAD the One Ring?
> 
> Also, if it's argued that Sauron didn't know the Three existed and hence wouldn't have looked for them before, why would he look now? Did he find out they existed somehow?
> 
> ...



As I recall, the Three were not under the _domain _or _control _of the One, but they were _tied _to it, at least, as I understand it. I do believe Rivendell and Lorien caught up to time when the One perished, as you said. I don't think I can say more, I am not so well versed in Tolkienology or his universe as more of the long-suffering members of this forum.

I hope this helps.

CL


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## Elthir (May 17, 2018)

Short version: when Celebrimbor perceived the designs of Sauron, the Elves took off their rings. Sauron recovered some rings of course (when he came with war to Eregion for example), but the Three were hidden from him.

They were in use in the Third Age after Sauron lost the One. And Elrond noted that, if the One was unmade, some hoped that the Three would become free "... and their rulers might heal the hurts of the world that he has wrought". But he also feared (and believed) that if the One was destroyed the Three would fail -- and they did. Elrond was correct.

Elrond also explained, at the council: "But all that has been wrought by those who wield the Three will turn to their undoing, and their minds and hearts will become revealed to Sauron, if he regains the One. It would be better if the Three had never been. That is his purpose."

Sauron was mean!


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (May 17, 2018)

Do you have a copy of the Silmarillion, Balrog? You'll find your answer in there:

_And while he wore the One Ring he could perceive all the things that were done with the lesser rings, and he could see and govern the very thoughts of those that wore them.

As soon as Sauron put the Ring on his finger they were aware of him. . .Then in anger and fear they took off their rings.

But Sauron could not discover them _[the Three]_, for they were given into the hands of the Wise, who concealed them and never again used them openly while Sauron kept the Ruling Ring. 
_
From "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age".

Edit: I see Galin beat me to it while I was typing. 

To the question of why he would want them, keep in mind that _all _the rings, including the seven and the nine, were made by the Elves, for their own use; It was after capturing them from the Elves that Sauron distributed them to other races, hoping to corrupt them. Of the Three,

_. . .of all the Elven-rings Sauron most desired to possess them, for those who had them in their keeping could ward off the decays of time and postpone the weariness of the world.
_
It's unclear whether he could have put that power to some use that could benefit him, but he would certainly have wanted to deprive the Elves of it.

As for your last question, I 've wondered about that myself, and posed it on another thread. The Three definitely lost their powers in _Middle Earth, _and all that had been done with them, the preserving effect, was undone, or at least could not continue, so that Lothlorien, for instance, re-entered time, so to speak, and became subject to the "decays of the world". This would cause many Elves to leave Middle Earth.

I would like to imagine that their powers were in some way restored in the Undying Lands, thus bringing the final healing of the rift caused by Feanor's sin of pride, and closing the "Circle of Rings", but as far as I know, Tolkien never said.


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## Elthir (May 18, 2018)

> I mean, did Lorien and Rivendale catch up to the rest of time when the One perished?



To me (though maybe you don't mean it this way), "catch up" suggests that these realms were in a different time flow. In draft texts Tolkien did play with this idea, but abandoned it, settling upon the effects of time being stayed, as Legolas explains after the Company leaves Lorien, to help with the confusion.

I imagine (so far, unless I've missed something to set against it) that when the preservation power of the Three ended, the effects of time began again, rather than a sort of extra decay "flooding" in, so to speak. The regular rate of decay/change appears swift to Elves in general, and perhaps seemed especially swift for any Elves who had lived in these realms. Imagine the decay and change in but one "Elvish Year" (144 years) in Middle-earth!

The end of the Three seems to have affected the great mallorn-trees in any case, as by the time Arwen arrived in Lothlorien following Aragorn's death, the mallorn leaves were falling before Spring arrived. Compare to the description in the chapter _Lothlorien_, given by Legolas: "For in autumn their leaves fall not, but turn to gold. Not till the Spring comes and the new green opens do they fall, ..."

I have beech on my property, which, generally speaking, hold their faded leaves till Spring -- especially the young beech. Although beech are not exactly mallorn trees, in any case.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (May 18, 2018)

Apt, though, as I believe I read that Tolkien used the beech, in part, as the model for the mallorn -- an "idealized" beech, you might say. The beech, under the right conditions, can grow to a mighty size and age.

You're right, of course, about Lorien; it didn't exist in a "different" time, but was preserved from the destructive effects of time, like Eden. The Elves wanted to recreate _their _Eden, their homeland across the Sea, and as Tolkien indicates, it was a fault of theirs, as they enforced a kind of stasis, obstructing the unfolding of time which was part of Eru's plan.

That is the sense in which I meant that Lorien "re-entered" time, after the destruction of the Ring, as it is sometimes said that Adam entered time with the Fall.


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## BalrogRingDestroyer (May 31, 2018)

A somewhat related question: What would have happened HAD Sauron been able to control the Three Rings in the Second Age? Wouldn't the Last Alliance still have defeated him?


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## Alcuin (May 31, 2018)

*Galin* and *Squint-eyed Southerner* have both said the Elves (all Noldor, most likely) in Eregion “took off their rings” when they perceived Sauron’s treachery. All the Great Rings were retrieved by Sauron during the War between the Elves and Sauron in the Second Age 1693-1700 _except_ the greatest of the Seven, which was given to Durin III by his friend Celebrimbor, and the Three; when Sauron attacked Eregion, the Dwarves of Khazad-dûm closed the West Door that Narvi and Celebrimbor had made, the one Gandalf opened so that the Company of the Ring could pass into Moria, and Sauron could not open it. (He wasn’t very “friendly”. The Wise seem to have doubted the Dwarves’ story that Celebrimbor gave Durin his Ring: apparently even they could not imagine such close a friendship between Elf and Dwarf, and instead suspected Durin had received it from Sauron in disguise. For myself, I don’t believe Durin was mistaken about who gave him the Ring.) 

Since “while [Sauron] wore the One Ring he could perceive all the things that were done with the lesser rings, and he could see and govern the very thoughts of those that wore them,” as *Squint-eyed Southerner* has already cited, it stands to reason that none of the Elves wore or used the Three Rings for the rest of the Second Age: otherwise, Sauron would have seen into the mind of the Elf using one of the Three and been able to control him. It’s akin strategically and philosophically to the Stewards of Gondor avoiding use of their remaining two palantíri after the fall of Minas Ithil: what if one of the Nazgûl – or Sauron himself – had acquired the missing Ithil-stone? Except that for the Elves, the outcome would be even worse than what happened to Denethor: _controlling the leaders of the Elves was the whole purpose of the Rings_ as far as Sauron was concerned. They simply stored the Rings in the Second Age and didn’t use them; besides that, Celebrimbor was wise enough to split them up, giving one of them to Galadriel. Since they were not in use, and Celebrimbor did not reveal their keepers even under horrendous torture, Sauron could not be certain who had them: His attack upon Lindon, where he must have (correctly) guessed Celebrimbor had sent them (but only two of them!) was disrupted by Tar-Minastir’s Númenórean expeditionary force with disastrous results for Sauron. 

_*But,*_ once Sauron was “dead” – vanquished, really: in retreat – the Elves dared to use the Three Rings to “understand[], mak[e], and heal[], to preserve all things unstained.” It isn’t explicit, but they acted as if they thought Sauron might be gone forever: there was for many centuries a dispute among the Wise about who was the principal inhabitant of Dol Guldur: most of them apparently believed it was one of the Nazgûl, probably because they knew at least one Nazgûl was there. 

This created _massive_ peril for the wielders of the Three Rings. Once they used their Rings, their hearts and minds were open to those Rings, and would be open to Sauron, too, _if_ he was able to reacquire the Ruling Ring. That’s what motivates their desire to destroy the One Ring: they have no other choice, since they perceive that using the One Ring themselves would only make matters worse, especially for the person who tries it. (Saruman notably dissented with his colleagues on this last point.) 

So to your “related question”, *BalrogRingDestroyer*, I think Sauron _was_ able to control the Three Rings during the Second Age. There was just no one to control on the other end: none of the Elves dared use any of the Three Rings until the Third Age, when it seems they mistakenly believed Sauron gone for good.


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## CirdanLinweilin (May 31, 2018)

Alcuin said:


> *Galin* and *Squint-eyed Southerner* have both said the Elves (all Noldor, most likely) in Eregion “took off their rings” when they perceived Sauron’s treachery. All the Great Rings were retrieved by Sauron during the War between the Elves and Sauron in the Second Age 1693-1700 _except_ the greatest of the Seven, which was given to Durin III by his friend Celebrimbor, and the Three; when Sauron attacked Eregion, the Dwarves of Khazad-dûm closed the West Door that Narvi and Celebrimbor had made, the one Gandalf opened so that the Company of the Ring could pass into Moria, and Sauron could not open it. (He wasn’t very “friendly”. The Wise seem to have doubted the Dwarves’ story that Celebrimbor gave Durin his Ring: apparently even they could not imagine such close a friendship between Elf and Dwarf, and instead suspected Durin had received it from Sauron in disguise. For myself, I don’t believe Durin was mistaken about who gave him the Ring.)
> 
> Since “while [Sauron] wore the One Ring he could perceive all the things that were done with the lesser rings, and he could see and govern the very thoughts of those that wore them,” as *Squint-eyed Southerner* has already cited, it stands to reason that none of the Elves wore or used the Three Rings for the rest of the Second Age: otherwise, Sauron would have seen into the mind of the Elf using one of the Three and been able to control him. It’s akin strategically and philosophically to the Stewards of Gondor avoiding use of their remaining two palantíri after the fall of Minas Ithil: what if one of the Nazgûl – or Sauron himself – had acquired the missing Ithil-stone? Except that for the Elves, the outcome would be even worse than what happened to Denethor: _controlling the leaders of the Elves was the whole purpose of the Rings_ as far as Sauron was concerned. They simply stored the Rings in the Second Age and didn’t use them; besides that, Celebrimbor was wise enough to split them up, giving one of them to Galadriel. Since they were not in use, and Celebrimbor did not reveal their keepers even under horrendous torture, Sauron could not be certain who had them: His attack upon Lindon, where he must have (correctly) guessed Celebrimbor had sent them (but only two of them!) was disrupted by Tar-Minastir’s Númenórean expeditionary force with disastrous results for Sauron.
> 
> ...



Great explanations, everyone!



I only consider myself a layman in Tolkienology, or his Legendarium, so this is very wonderful to read!

CL


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (May 31, 2018)

I think we're all laypeople here.

Anybody getting paid for this?


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## CirdanLinweilin (May 31, 2018)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I think we're all laypeople here.
> 
> Anybody getting paid for this?


Oh, good, then I cannot feel bad for knowing only a bit.

 

CL

*It would be nice to get paid for this....


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (May 31, 2018)

Every little bit helps.


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## Elthir (Jun 1, 2018)

Actually I've been paid in connection with my Tolkien studies...

… my wife gave me five dollars to put the books away, get off the net and go cut the lawn.

_badum-tsh!_


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jun 1, 2018)

Groan.


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## CirdanLinweilin (Jun 1, 2018)

Galin said:


> Actually I've been paid in connection with my Tolkien studies...
> 
> … my wife gave me five dollars to put the books away, get off the net and go cut the lawn.
> 
> _badum-tsh!_


*slow clap*



CL


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jun 3, 2018)

I'm going to add a little OT anecdote on the beech:

There was a huge, old, and very beautiful one in the woods across from my mother's house. I doubt two men could have touched hands around the trunk. It must have been at least 200 years old (they can reach up to 300). Whenever she went for a walk with her dogs, my mother (who loved trees as much as Tolkien did) would always pause for a minute, just to admire it.

Needless to say, she was very angry when it was cut down to make way for a power line.


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## CirdanLinweilin (Jun 3, 2018)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I'm going to add a little OT anecdote on the beech:
> 
> There was a huge, old, and very beautiful one in the woods across from my mother's house. I doubt two men could have touched hands around the trunk. It must have been at least 200 years old (they can reach up to 300). Whenever she went for a walk with her dogs, my mother (who loved trees as much as Tolkien did) would always pause for a minute, just to admire it.
> 
> Needless to say, she was very angry when it was cut down to make way for a power line.


I would be too. 



CL



There is a tree in Mission Viejo, _reportedly, older than Christ....._
_
_
But don't quote me on that.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jun 3, 2018)

Some trees are 5,000 years old.

Trees are funny things. We're still learning about them, and their interactions. For instance, groups of trees, called clonals, can be _80,000 years old.

See here:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_trees_


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## CirdanLinweilin (Jun 3, 2018)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Some trees are 5,000 years old.
> 
> Trees are funny things. We're still learning about them, and their interactions. For instance, groups of trees, called clonals, can be _80,000 years old._



Wow! What a lifespan! Talk about longevity!

I'll definitely check this out.

Now I want to read _Two Towers_.

CL



Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> See here:


_VERY _Interesting, Squint! Thank you for sharing!!


CL


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jun 3, 2018)

By coincidence , I was listening to NPR's Radio Lab program today, and they reported some discoveries on plants and trees:

https://www.wnycstudios.org/shows/radiolab/on-air

Worth a listen, if you're interested, and can find an hour to spare.


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## CirdanLinweilin (Jun 3, 2018)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> By coincidence , I was listening to NPR's Radio Lab program today, and they reported some discoveries on plants and trees:
> 
> https://www.wnycstudios.org/shows/radiolab/on-air
> 
> Worth a listen, if you're interested, and can find an hour to spare.


I'll try to find some time, if I can, thank you!


CL


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jun 3, 2018)

Of course, you can break it into bite-sized chunks -- if you can remember the "minute mark" where you left off!


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## CirdanLinweilin (Jun 3, 2018)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Of course, you can break it into bite-sized chunks -- if you can remember the "minute mark" where you left off!


True!



CL


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