# What are Orcs and where do they come from?



## Anarchist

I was always wondering how Morgoth transform elves to totally a different race; orcs. What exactly he did to create those barbaric and tough characters out of some noble and kind (at least most of them) characters.


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## jks13

The orcs where tortured elves


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## A Ranger

the power of evil


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## Meliaiel

Quote:
'Yet it is held true by the wise of Eressèa,that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor,ere Utumno was broken,were put there in prison,and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved;and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves,of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes.'
('The Silmarillion',Chapter 3)
also somewhere in 'The Silmarillion' was told that if anyone-no matter elf or edain-looked into Melkor's eyes his mind would be broken and poisoned by dispair and madness.


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## Eonwe

yes, AND they smoked, drank and did drugs, and swore a lot. At least that's how I tell my kids they got that way


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## ssgrif

Ok so if Orcs are basically tortured Elves, Elves that have looked into Melkors eyes and turned into an evil mad Orc, how come they dont even look the same, as a species?

Surely Orcs should look like Elves, just evil, unless their genetics where changed somehow?

Are we to believe that over the hundreds of years since the first tortured elves, they evolved into these hideous creatures? Would this mean that the first Orcs were just like Elves in there appearances?

Any ideas?


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## Kit Baggins

Do we actually know what Orcs look like? (apart from the movie!)

~Kit


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## Anarchist

> Do we actually know what Orcs look like? (apart from the movie!)
> ~Kit



I can't recall any quotes from the book but I am certain I read in a lot of places that orcs are black and ugly. It is indeed strange how elves that were so beautiful became black (no rasism here) and ugly and indeed much stronger than elves themselves. Did Morgoth put some magic on them? Did he use music to make them that way? This is possible since the world was created with music. Anyone recalls any quotes about this?


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## Meliaiel

i don't know if Morgoth used any magics breeding the race of Orcs(though i guess it's possible) or music(Morgoth and music?...hmmmm),but if elves were tortured,that means some physical damage was done to them,and it might have changed their appearance.also they probably lived in terrible conditions,that might be a reason,too;finally,Morgoth's dwelling place was always dark and maybe because of the lack of light orcs were black?then,poisonous air and water and food...i don't know,i'm just guessing.


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## ssgrif

The idea of the lack of light, poor food and water hygiene, poisonous fumes etc seems a viable one to change the appearance of the Orcs, but this would only happen over a long period of time, so surely this suggests that the first Orcs still had the appearance of Elves?


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## JeffF.

*JRRT must have intended them not to look so much different*

When orcs first appeared (as stated in the Simarilion) they were mistaken for Quendi who had 'gone wild.' In LOTR when Eomer and his eored pass Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli he initially mistakes them for orcs from very close range. Later Frodo and Sam passed themselves off as orcs in Mordor. The orc leader is close enough to whip them. Despite wearing orc armor, helms and cloaks any radical difference in physical features should still have been apparent. Apparently JRRT intended that they shared physical characteristics with men, hobbits and elves .


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## Anarchist

Very interesting opinions. Meliaiel Morgoth was using music when he was created by Eru and was called Melkor. Maybe the music he was using was evil I don't know. How about some other orclike species like trolls. How did trolls like the big one in Moria (ok it was a bit too big in the movie) become like that? Maybe further magic was ised there. I can't anyhow imagine orcs looking like elves. That's a bit wierd.


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## Meliaiel

...i know Melkor took part in the choir of the Ainur in he very beginning;but that was he who tried to make different music,he who made disharmony;and as it was said instead of creating and cherishing he wanted to rule.so probably...i'm not sure if his music was 'evil',thought it might be so;but it lead to disharmony indeed.now the question is-could he still make music in Arda?...somehow i doubt...but maybe.
..and orcs looking like Elves-i agree that's weird.but,on the other hand,when they became orcs(whatever the reason was-Melkor's cruelty or magics or else),they were not Elves anymore...
another weird thing-how Morgoth made them to hate Elves?...logically,they had to hate Morgoth,as he captured and tortured them;but orcs were his faithful servants and held Elves their enemies.hence probably Morgoth's power was so terrible that he could change Elves beyond recognition.if they even forgot their own kin and became it's enemies!what to talk about the appearance then. 
now trolls...i've got no idea how they were made.but i guess here magic was used indeed,as well as in breeding dragons and balrogs,at least i think so.


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## Cian

> "The Orcs are definitely stated to be corruptions of the 'human' form seen in Elves and Men. They are (or were) squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: ..." JRRT



That's just a general description of course. 
Tolkien seemingly was still working on the ultimate 'stock' for Orcs though ... he even noted once, on a typescript of _Annals of Aman_ against the account of the origin of the Orcs: _"Alter this. Orcs are not Elvish"_ ... but see the "Orc-essays" published in "Morgoths Ring" for further details. One of which begins:

Orcs
_"Their nature and origin require more thought. They are not easy to work into the theory and system." ... _


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## UngattTrunn475

> _Originally posted by Meliaiel _
> *but i guess here magic was used indeed,as well as in breeding dragons and balrogs,at least i think so. *



Balrogs weren't breeded, they were Maiar corrupted by Melkor.


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## Meliaiel

...owch my mistake...


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## Tarien

And what, I wonder were dragons mockeries of? Not balrogs; they were in hi service. And Melkor did not have the power to create thinking, willed beasts seperate from his own will. So is it possible dragons existed from the beginning, children of Illuvitar? Evil to balance good, or something like that?


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## Istar

> _Originally posted by Meliaiel _
> *Quote:
> also somewhere in 'The Silmarillion' was told that if anyone-no matter elf or edain-looked into Melkor's eyes his mind would be broken and poisoned by dispair and madness. *



According to _The Silmarillion_ Chapter 7, when Melkor tries to con Fëanor out of the Silmarils, Fëanor is no where near broken or in despair. "And he shut the doors of his house in the face of the mightiest of all the dwellers in Eä.
Then Melkor departed in shame..."
It appears that Fëanor has this power over Melkor!

Anyway, I believe that orcs were created from Elves that were corrupted by evil. When they were first created, they might have still looked like (disfigured) Elves, but years of inbreeding and the taint of evil changed them into the hideous shapes they have in the Third Age.


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## Hanne

Even if they would become mad ,they can't just become black,ugly and evil?


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## Rangerdave

*Orc making*

Take one elf (fresh, not frozen)
mix in equal parts of Disco, Spam, MacDonalds Secret Sauce and 2 Quinten Tarentino films.

let sit in cold damp area for 25 years
add ugly shoes and Mullet hair cut

add jalapino peppers to taste

and viola`
instant ready to use orc

serves one.

best if used in large groups

RD


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## Anarchist

Rangerdave that's a very nice recipie  . You forgot to add letting it watch tv programs like the Big Brother for hours and then watch some Stanlone and Swarcheneger violent movies. That would make the perfect orc.


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## Thorin

It seems that many of you are limiting Morgoth to Arda-means....I could take a dog and torture it, feed it poison and put it in a dark, gloomy and overall destructive environment and end up with a really, ticked off and disturbed dog....not a wild boar with sharp tusks....

Morgoth obviously used the magic that was given to him to corrupt and all through his works, Tolkien tries to show that evil _itself_ is a corrupting power....not that it just corrupts ideologically but also physcally and mentally as well (Gollum is a good example)....The orcs' differences physical stature and attributes from Elves is not hard to imagine with such a powerful, evil Valar as Melkor.


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## Ancalagon

_I posted this in another thread, but it might be relevant here also;_ 

Ok, this is another tough one. A little like 'can the ring think?' 
What have we got here? 

What happens to Elves that have been captured by Morgoth, tortured, twisted and corrupted beyond recognition? 

What happens to their spirits when they die and do they get a reprieve by Mandos, because Morgoth corrupted them? 

Do their souls remain in the captivity of Morgoth even after death? 
I think that is pretty much what you seek answers for! 

Ok, I am going to try and give a fairly reasoned response to this, though I imagine my friends and colleagues on the board will seek to offer their own opinions at a later date. I can say now, with some confidence that it is mostly impossible to answer, so I will only offer my personal opinion based on the knowledge I have and I can say my knowledge is tested by the questions. 

First things first, I believe it is important to look upon this in the context of Tolkiens creation and not with a Christian, Jewish or other religion view of life after death, heaven and hell perspective. 

That said, lets look at the first question; 
What happens to Elves that have been captured by Morgoth, tortured, twisted and corrupted beyond recognition? 

The Sil makes the first reference to their ensnarement in the 'Coming of Elves'. 



quote:
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'But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty. For who of those living has descended into the pits of Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the councils of Melkor? Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressea, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom afterwards they were the bitterest of foes. For Orcs had life and multiplied after the Children of Iluvatar; and naught had life of its own, nor the semblance of life, could Melkor ever make since his rebellion in the Ainulidale before the beginning: so say the wise. And Deep in their dark hearts the Orcs loathed their Master whom they served in fear, the maker only of their misery. 
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This pretty much answers the first question, and possibly goes some way to answering the others. Personally, I feel one of the most important points in this quote is that relating to their reproduction. I imagine that Tolkiens vision of birth, was similar to that of Elven and Human reproduction. The reason for this is simple; each of these races could interbreed. Human and Elven could conceive, therefore, Orcs by definition could also. This would account for their rapid growth within Middle-Earth at this time. So, no sign of them hatching from pods!!! 


What happens to their spirits when they die and do they get a reprieve by Mandos, because Morgoth corrupted them? 

There is no right or wrong answer to this, for we only understand what the Silmarillion tells us of the Keeper of the Dead, Mandos. 


quote:
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He is the Keeper of the Houses of the Dead, and the summoner of the spirits of the slain. He forgets nothing; and he knows all things that shall be, save only those that lie still in the freedom of Iluvatar. He is the Doomsman of the Valar; but he pronounces his dooms and his judgements only at the bidding of Manwe.
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However, this is where I become stuck. For other than references to both Men and Elves regarding their fate in the hands of both Iluvatar and Mandos, I cannot find reference to the fate of orcs. Even in The Shaping Of Middle Earth (Book 4, HOME), earliest writings by the author do not specify orcish fate. I can only imagine that their souls were given to the mercy of Mandos, who knew all of their origin and creation. This however does not rest so easy on me, for I fear that their fate was much worse than the passing fancy of the Valar. They too may have been souls cast for eternity into the void, after the fashion of the demise of Morgoth. Who knows? Answers on a postcard please! 

That sort of leads on to the final question; 

Do their souls remain in the captivity of Morgoth even after death? Well, as Morgoth is not the keeper of the dead of the Valar, one can assume that they do not. However, Middle-Earth itself is riddled with the spirits of the dead, of whom none have yet gone to these Halls. Does this mean they are unwelcome? or does it mean they choose not too, for they seek redemption of their master, Morgoth, of whom they cannot ask? Remember, this is not a Christian perspective. 
I personally feel that Orcs may be returned to Mandos after death, for they are still creations from the firstborn and therefore still known to Mandos in the depth of the souls. 

Without researching this for months, this is the best answer I can offer to these questions, particularly 2 and 3.


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## Zale

As to how the physical appearance of the Orcs is so far removed from that of the Elves, remember one thing: selective breeding.
All Morgoth had to do was choose the Orcs (/Elves, when first captured) with the characteristics he most wanted to pass on (e.g. strength, viciousness etc.), and let them breed but not the others. Remember he had a LONG time to do this in, so there will have been a lot of generations to breed, so the physical changes will have been the more dramatic.
For example, lettuce, broccoli and sprouts are all descended from the same original plant. How they are today was achieved by farmers using selective breeding to achieve the things they wantd, e.g. big leaves (lettuce), or big buds (sprouts). The same thing is used to a certain extent with racehorses (only breeding the fastest), and Morgoth will almost certainly have applied it to his Orcs.


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## elvenbladesmith

ok the thing with the dark caves making orcs black makes no sense at all. think about it, black people are black because the have lived in the sun of africa, and so have their parents and grandparents, and so on, its evolution.(no racisim intended) an orc who hates sunlight because he spends all his time in the dark, should be a very pale orc, not black like describes in the book or in the movies. 
the elf turned bad into orc thing makes little sense either. how does a 6'6' elf become 5'5"? and how would it pass on it mutilated traits to its spawn? if i get my arm cut off would my kids all have one arm? no. if charles manson had kids, would they have to be evil too? no. so why should a tortured evil elves produce orcs, unless some sort of magic had taken place.
what if they werent elves at all? what about evil dark dwarves? there are dark elves right? what about dark dwarves? it makes sense, without having to alter genes or use magic. 
tolkien never finished his work, so maybe this was a problem that occured while he was writing it, that he was going to come back and fix after it was all done?


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## Laire

Zale said:


> As to how the physical appearance of the Orcs is so far removed from that of the Elves, remember one thing: selective breeding.
> All Morgoth had to do was choose the Orcs (/Elves, when first captured) with the characteristics he most wanted to pass on (e.g. strength, viciousness etc.), and let them breed but not the others. Remember he had a LONG time to do this in, so there will have been a lot of generations to breed, so the physical changes will have been the more dramatic.


I agree. As Melkor was the most gifted among the Valar he could probably understand the principles of genetical construction, and so apply them practically He could also use some kind of mutations to make his experiments more interesting. As for character changing, why not use suggestion or anything similar? Irmo could be a psychoterapeutic even for Valar (as they used to come to Lorien to find rest) so why couldn't Melkor do something of this kind for other races? Besides, if use selective breeding, then next generations would know Melkor as their creator/master/owner (underline one ). Moriquendi never saw the light of the Trees, and this single factor already made them different from those who saw, so the past experience matters a lot even without torturing 
Besides, genetic code of Middle Earth races is a very interesting topic. Is there anything about it here, on TTF?


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## Randir

Laire said:


> I agree. As Melkor was the most gifted among the Valar he could probably understand the principles of genetical construction, and so apply them practically He could also use some kind of mutations to make his experiments more interesting. As for character changing, why not use suggestion or anything similar? Irmo could be a psychoterapeutic even for Valar (as they used to come to Lorien to find rest) so why couldn't Melkor do something of this kind for other races? Besides, if use selective breeding, then next generations would know Melkor as their creator/master/owner (underline one ). Moriquendi never saw the light of the Trees, and this single factor already made them different from those who saw, so the past experience matters a lot even without torturing
> Besides, genetic code of Middle Earth races is a very interesting topic. Is there anything about it here, on TTF?


 
1. Melkor was exceptional not because he was greater than any Vala, but because he possessed partially abilities of every single Vala (i.e. hearing as Varda, seeing as Manwe and so on). At the beginning Melkor was second only to Eru.

2. Melkor did not have personally much time for the 'genetical' experiments with the orcs, as soon after Valar discovered Quendi they made war and imprisoned him. He returned to ME slightly before the 1st age of sun began.
Apart from that Tolkien do nt feel obliged to use modern biology/genetics - he stated that he does not feel limited by it's requirements.

3. If you want more info (and quotes for my upper statements) on breeding the orcs -> http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?t=17675 (that's my extensive essay dealing ith thsi matter)


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## Laire

Visited the link. Very-very interesting Great job is done, thanks for that. The world is incompletely and imagined, yes, but this leads to one of eternal questions - is Middle Earth real or not? I prefer not to think too much, it doesn't suit me so I'm just regarding it as real, and then biology seems applicable, but it's all IMHO, surely. When you write a fantasy book, it is DEFINITELY not viable for reality, otherwise it's not a fantasy 


Randir said:


> 1. Melkor was exceptional not because he was greater than any Vala, but because he possessed partially abilities of every single Vala (i.e. hearing as Varda, seeing as Manwe and so on). At the beginning Melkor was second only to Eru.


This is exactly what I meant, sorry if I wasn't clear enough to explain it 


Randir said:


> 2. Melkor did not have personally much time for the 'genetical' experiments with the orcs, as soon after Valar discovered Quendi they made war and imprisoned him. He returned to ME slightly before the 1st age of sun began.





Randir said:


> *Sauron has a unique position too, as executor of Morgoth’s major designs: “Sauron escaped and lay hid in Middle-earth; and it can in this way be understood how the breeding of the Orcs (…) went on with increasing speed during the age when the Noldor dwelt in Aman”(1), also “The details of the accomplishment of this wickedness [breeding of the Orcs] were, however, left mainly to the subtleties of Sauron”(1).*


Did you mean there that it was Sauron who performed the breeding itself after learning the main principles from Melkor? Actually, it was almost straightly said in the second part of your essay, and I like the idea


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## Randir

Laire said:


> Did you mean there that it was Sauron who performed the breeding itself after learning the main principles from Melkor? Actually, it was almost straightly said in the second part of your essay, and I like the idea



That is not my idea though, but one of professors  . Apart form the initiation of the process (breeding orcs) Tolkien was inclined to say that Sauron achieved it.


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## Laire

Even better But we are led away from genetical issue. IMHO, that was quite possible, but I don't say that magic wasn't used there. Surely it was, otherwise that would be too simple... If we come back to the matter of dark skin, for example, this could be done by some magic mutation increasing the level of melanine or how this thing is called


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## cupn00dles

I believe that it's not like some kind of simple "shape(and of course mind)" change made by Morgoth... I think it's more like Morgoth's evil arts and tortures triggered all the evil things within his prisioners to consume them, and the change is mostly due to the elves themselves who couldn't withstand Morgoth's will (cuz if you stop to think many very powerful elves were imprisioned and suffered Motgoth's tortures and evil arts but never got even close to change into orcs, like Maedhros and others, though it's hard to compare him with the Avari who most likely originated the orc race) and ended up consumed by fear, hate, malice and other stuff and got transfigured in the orcish race... It's like if only the weak-minded ones that would bend themselves to pain and fear would become orcs... (dunno if I expressed myself exactly the way I intended to, but it's something like that)


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