# Numenorians/Dunedain?



## Wood Elf (Mar 11, 2002)

Hey,
I was wondering, are Numenorians and Dunedain the same thing, just different name? Also, the Numenorians were started by Eorl, and he was a half elf. Half elves, though they can choose to be counted among men or elves, still have the blood of both men and elves in them right? Half-elf men can die, whereas half-elf elves are immortal. Right? Technically, that means Aragorn has some tiny bit of elf in him. Is this why he can somewhat surpass other humans? Also (might as well ask one more while I'm at it!) is this why Aragorn has the hands of a healer, because he has some elven in him? Sorry so many questions. I suppose most of this is explained in the Sil right? I have't yet finished the whole thing, as I had to put it down for a little while to read other stuff for school (yuck!)


----------



## Greenwood (Mar 11, 2002)

A couple of quick answers. The Dunedain, of which Aragorn is the chief, are the remnants in the north of the northern kingdom of Arnor, sister kingdom to Gondor. The two kingdoms were founded by the Numenorians who survived the drowning of Numenor (the Sil will give you the details). Eorl was the founder of Rohan. He led his people from the north to aid Gondor in one of her wars and was given Rohan as a reward. Eorl is not one of the half-elven. Elrond is one of the half-elven and, yes, Aragorn has some elvish blood (very distantly) because he is descended from Elrond's brother who was also half-elven, but who chose to be human.


----------



## Wood Elf (Mar 11, 2002)

Sorry, I meant Elrond's brother, whose name starts with an "E". Guess I mixed them up! He was the half-elf who chose to be with humans, and was first king of Numenor, that dude is who I meant! Sorry!


----------



## Beleg Strongbow (Mar 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Wood Elf _
> *Sorry, I meant Elrond's brother, whose name starts with an "E". Guess I mixed them up! He was the half-elf who chose to be with humans, and was first king of Numenor, that dude is who I meant! Sorry! *



That would be Elros.


----------



## Elrond (Mar 12, 2002)

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Wood Elf 
Sorry, I meant Elrond's brother, whose name starts with an "E". Guess I mixed them up! He was the half-elf who chose to be with humans, and was first king of Numenor, that dude is who I meant! Sorry! 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



That would be Elros.

ROTFL!!


----------



## Elanor2 (Mar 12, 2002)

The Sil will help you here, but I can give you some advances...

------------------------------------------------
Half-elf men can die, whereas half-elf elves are immortal. Right? 
------------------------------------------------

Children of mixed Elf-Human parentage are a problem in terms of destiny. Even the Valar are not sure what to do with them. Mandos (master of destinies) insists that they should be counted as humans only. However, Manwe (with Eru's permission) can change the destiny of some special people (Luthien and Tuor, for example). The surviving descendants of the two marriages Beren/Luthien and Idril/Tuor were Earendil, Elwing, Elrond and Elros, and in their case and because of their work in favor of both races, they were given by Manwe the right to choose. Only Elros chose to be human (or, from Mandos point of view, to remain human). Once the choice is made, it is fixed. The term Half-elven given to Elron is just a remembrance of his parentage. Aragorn, descendant of Elros, is fully human, and his elven blood just gives him a certain allure.
Additional exception is given to Arwen later on. Since her father chose to be Elf, she is fully Elf, but was granted to follow Aragorn (not clear how).
Posterior marriages Elf-Human produced only humans, like in the case of the lords of Dol-Amroth.

--------------------------------------------------
Is this why he can somewhat surpass other humans? 
--------------------------------------------------

The descendants the Men that helped the Elves were given gifts by the Valar. One of the gifts was the newly created island kingdom of Numenor. They were given double life-span and increased power of their minds and skills. Elros was their first king and to him and his descendants he was given four times more life-span. Aragorn, of course, is the ultimate recipient of these gifts, and he had increased them by learning and using them well.


----------



## Lantarion (Mar 12, 2002)

The Edain were the good guy- Men who were befriended by the Elves, and didn't turn to Melkor's seduction. The *Dún*edain were the Númenoreans who came to Middle-Earth and formed the kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor. Yowza.


----------



## Wood Elf (Mar 12, 2002)

Thanks guys, so technically, if you got a DNA sample from Aragorn, he would have some physical strands of elvish in him, from Elros  Half-elves are technically half and half, if you took a DNA sample and looked, but they get to choose who they wish to be counted as. That is kinda interesting that the Valar didn't even know what to do with half-elves. So, wouldn't Arwen technically (DNA) have some human in her, just a little from Elrond's mother?


----------



## Elanor2 (Mar 13, 2002)

I think that in another thread someone pointed out that, looking at Elrond and Elros, they were in fact 1/16 Maiar, 6/16 Human and 9/16 Elf, from the genetical point of view. 

Arwen's mother was al Elf, so she is 1/32 Maiar, 6/32 Human and 25/32 Elf. Aragorn, if you care to calculate, descends from the human side, 32 generations removed (I think).


----------



## Wood Elf (Mar 14, 2002)

Cool. Thank you Elanor. I think that is cool that Arwen and Aragorn's relationship mirrors that of Luthien and Beren. They are the only two human/elf marriages, am I correct? Didn't one of them descend from Luthien (Arwen or Aragorn?)


----------



## Hama (Mar 14, 2002)

Both are descended from Luthien in fact, albeit Aragorn more distantly. Luthien is Arwen's great-great grandmother. There were in fact three unions of Eldar and Edain - Luthien and Beren, Idril and Tuor and Aragorn and Arwen. Luthien and Arwen became mortal, but Tuor was counted one of the elves and went to Valinor. 
By the way Elanor, I think the deal with Arwen's mortality was that she could choose to return to Valinor with Elrond and live forever, or she could stay after his departure and be granted mortality because of her Edain heritage. How it worked I am not sure.


----------



## Wood Elf (Mar 14, 2002)

I didn't think Arwen could pass to the west, because she gave up her immortality for Aragorn. Therefore she became mortal when she made that decision. That is the crux right, an elf has to give up their immortality if they want to marry a human.


----------



## Halasían (Dec 29, 2017)

Hama said:


> Both are descended from Luthien in fact, albeit Aragorn more distantly. Luthien is Arwen's great-great grandmother. There were in fact three unions of Eldar and Edain - Luthien and Beren, Idril and Tuor and Aragorn and Arwen. Luthien and Arwen became mortal, but Tuor was counted one of the elves and went to Valinor.
> By the way Elanor, I think the deal with Arwen's mortality was that she could choose to return to Valinor with Elrond and live forever, or she could stay after his departure and be granted mortality because of her Edain heritage. How it worked I am not sure.



Is it odd that it was always Edain men mmanaging to seduce Eldar women (or the other way around). No Eldar men hooking up wiith Edain women.



Wood Elf said:


> I didn't think Arwen could pass to the west, because she gave up her immortality for Aragorn. Therefore she became mortal when she made that decision. That is the crux right, an elf has to give up their immortality if they want to marry a human.



I wonder if they could sail west should theu got bored with their mortal husbands, or simply waited for them to die.


----------



## Elora (Dec 30, 2017)

I believe that Tolkien was rather clear in his writings. It was the women who married "beneath" them. Eldar women to Edain men. Maiar women to Eldar men. There are no cannonical instances where this is reversed. As I understand it, once the Eldar are joined in marriage to the Edain, they do not "become mortal" as in have their lifespans arbitrarily shortened. Rather, once their true loves meet their mortal fate, their Eldar spouses choose to lay down their lives. They then travel to the Halls of Mandos, but mortals do not.

Whether they could journey to Valinor "alive" as it were, I do not know.


----------



## Elthir (Dec 30, 2017)

There is the case of the love between Aegnor and the mortal Andreth, although they were not wed. Finrod explains: "... this is time of War, Andreth, and in such days the Elves do not wed or bear child; but prepare for death -- or for flight. Aegnor has no trust (nor have I) in the siege of Angband that it will last long..." Morgoth's Ring, _Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth_

The exchange (between Finrod and Andreth) goes on, in part discussing the difficulties of the long-lived wedding the (relatively) short-lived, and that he thinks that if any such union should occur "... it shall be for some high purpose of Doom."

As for Tuor and Idril, I like to believe that, sailing West, they were ultimately admitted to Aman. And I like to include the song sung in "after days" that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the race of Elves (_Of Tuor and The fall of Gondolin_), and lived with Idril in the West.

Luthien is obviously a special case too (if we count Tuor), being allowed the fate of Men after her second death.


----------



## Elora (Dec 30, 2017)

"There is the case of the love between Aegnor and the mortal Andreth, although they were not wed."

There it is right there - were not wed. Tolkien placed particular significance on the act of a wedding as a powerful rite, and so it is unwise to include unwedded joinings.

"As for Tuor and Idril, I like to believe that"

We're all, of course, free to believe what we want. Therein lies no small part of the charm of Tolkien's work as there is plenty of space for us to embroider and speculate. However, what we like to believe shouldn't be conflated with cannon.

Tolkien is quite clear - Elves go to the Halls of Mandos when they die. Some remain, some emerge again back to Valinor. The fate of Men after death is unknown, for they alone have the gift of not being bound to the Circles of Arda. Not even the Valar are empowered to alter that, for this gift comes not from them and they are not the penultimate powers in Arda. The gift, along with the power to bestow it, comes from Erú.

Something as extraordinary as an act of Erú to vary his "gift" to Mortal Men would be something Tolkien would have noted in cannon.


----------



## Elthir (Dec 30, 2017)

I'm not sure why it's unwise to note that Aegnor and Andreth loved each other. I didn't confuse the fact that they weren't wed, and it's at least an example of love between a male elf and a female mortal, which some readers are not aware of.

Halasian had stated this, in the thread above "(...) no Eldar men hooking up with Edain women." which (the fuller statement especially) seemed to me to be a bit broader than marriage.



Elora said:


> However, what we like to believe shouldn't be conflated with cannon.



I don't believe I conflated this however, as I represented this as my belief/opinion, though based on in-story text.



> Something as extraordinary as an act of Erú to vary his "gift" to Mortal Men would be something Tolkien would have noted in cannon.



That said, Tolkien did choose to note, internally in his tale, a song or songs that at least arguably "plant(s) the seed" of Tuor being accepted as an Elf. Yes it would need to be Eru, just like it was with Luthien; my point merely being that this possibility is not simply wishful thinking without any basis whatsoever in the text, as obviously, Tolkien need not have even noted this much.

 "Tuor weds Idril the daughter of Turgon King of Gondoln; and it is "supposed" (not stated) that he as a unique exception receives the Elvish limited "immortality": an exception either way." JRRT, draft letter 153

[later, same letter]

"Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the Eruhini (...) it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be affected by the Valar even in one case: the cases of Luthien (and Tuor) and the postion of their descendants was a direct act of god."


----------



## Elora (Dec 30, 2017)

"I'm not sure why it's unwise to note that Aegnor and Andreth loved each other."​
To be clear: I said that there were no instances of *marriage*, which is not the same as love, between a male Eldar and a female Edain, or a male Ainur and a female Eldar/Edain. 

"I don't believe I conflated this however, as I represented this as my belief/opinion, though based on in-story text."​Interpretation/belief/opinion is not the same as cannon.

Using notes and letters (particularly _*draft*_ letters) to somehow debunk cannon is not good practise, common though it may be.


----------



## Elthir (Dec 30, 2017)

Elora said:


> "I'm not sure why it's unwise to note that Aegnor and Andreth loved each other."​
> To be clear: I said that there were no instances of *marriage*, which is not the same as love, between a male Eldar and a female Edain, or a male Ainur and a female Eldar/Edain.



Okay, but my post above (the one in question) wasn't addressed to you specifically in any case (I didn't quote you). It was partly in response to Halasian's remarks, and partly a general addition.



> Interpretation/belief/opinion is not the same as cannon.
> 
> Using notes and letters (particularly _*draft*_ letters) to somehow debunk cannon is not good practise, common though it may be.



Again, I rather clearly represented my statement as my belief, so I don't see why conflation became an issue, nor why you here feel a need to draw a distinction between opinion and canon. And nothing in the letter I quoted later (draft or not), necessarily debunks anything (nor was it intended to).

And just to add, for me, the stacks of Silmarillion related papers are essentially drafts too. In my opinion, letters, draft letters, notes, longer whathaveyous, do not take precedence over what JRRT himself published. If you are referring to the constructed Silmarillion as "canon" (not constructed or published by JRRT of course) it can be noted that Christopher Tolkien took his father's letters into account while constructing it (adding the Ents, for example).


----------



## Elora (Dec 30, 2017)

It's time to use some rigour here, Galin.

Cannon is what is published as cannon - a primary source. Some of JRRT's cannon includes secondary sources (author notes). Tertiary sources would be draft notes (as yet uncompleted by author) on topics where there are not secondary or primary sources. Letters provide the author's interpretation of cannon.

Draft letters are like drat thoughts - unfinished and hence unreliable sources.

So again, to use _*draft*_ letters is all well and good, but their use is fraught given the nature of the sources you have chosen to use. Just not good practice for any rigorous study of an author's work.

Lastly, the rationale that Christopher Tolkien did something and therefore everyone should be able to do the same thing is a very loose one indeed when it comes to analysis of JRRT"s work.

NOTE: it would be really helpful if, in a general discussion involving multiple contributors, you use the name of the person you are specifically addressing when you would like to address them.


----------



## Elthir (Dec 30, 2017)

Can you provide me with Tolkien's characterization of canon in reference to his own work?

If not, you are of course welcome to your own characterizations, as well as tons of folk on the web who have their own approach to the sources, and what makes up canon for them.

I have my opinion there too 



> Lastly, the rationale that Christopher Tolkien did something and therefore everyone should be able to do the same thing is a very loose one indeed when it comes to analysis of JRRT"s work.



Rather I was noting something in possible reference to your version of canon, that is, if you consider the constructed Silmarillion as "canon" then please be aware (it can be noted) that it's at least partly made of Tolkien's letters.

Full stop as to that much, but to add, it's also constructed out a bit of outright invented material, and a multitude of decisions based on what to include, or not to include, from stacks of what are essentially _draft_ materials written at various points in time.


----------



## Elora (Dec 30, 2017)

Galin said:


> Can you provide me with Tolkien's characterization of canon in reference to his own work?
> 
> If not, you are of course welcome to your own characterizations, as well as tons of folk on the web who have their own approach to the sources, and what makes up canon for them.
> 
> ...



You seem to be claiming the same degree of authority in this body of work as Christopher Tolkien - and that just doesn’t stack up, Galin. 

Therefore, like the rest of us, caution is advisable to combat over interpretation. 

And as this doesn’t seem to be related any more to Wood Elf’s query, but more about you asserting your authority, little more is to be gained by continuing any further discussion with you Galin. 

And I won’t be in the least surprised if you feel the need to have the final say on that too.


----------



## Elthir (Dec 30, 2017)

Why do you think I'm claiming the same authority as Christopher Tolkien? Because of what I said about the constructed Silmarillion?

Christopher Tolkien never refers to the 1977 Silmarillion as canon that I'm aware of. And would not in my opinion, given the kind of man I think him to be: too humble to put such a stamp on his work, or claim that he certainly knows his father's "final" thoughts regarding a notably large number of questions (given the nature of the very unfinished original papers).

I love the constructed Silmarillion, but for me (as I think is intended), it's a reader's version, not intended to be thought of as canon.

Find two people who wholly agree on canon... does such an agreement/unicorn exist?


----------



## Blueduindain (Apr 17, 2018)

Most think that's the case. Me, i don't think we're full numenorean, thousands of years is a long time, and i wouldn't be surprised if our ancestors interbreed with men of non-numenorean decent. especially considering how few survivors of Numenor there were; if we were all pure blooded you would think we'd have a _Lot_ more issues, like birth defects than we actually do! It's not a popular theory in Gondor for obvious reasons; but it's got a fair share of supporters.

ooc:Yeah, i wrote this comment from the perspective of my persona; in my actual opinion it is unknown how pure the bloodline is; or that the Duindain don't have an increased risk of birth defects, the latter we will probably never know;but i still have the opinion that they did interbreed with other races of men in the area.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 18, 2018)

Pretty sure I'm pure Dundenling!

Might be a little Orc in there, though.


----------

