# What are marches of doriath? and why not take part in minor conflicts?



## Turin_Turambar (Apr 20, 2021)

How many marches of doriath are there? and are they army battles? and why not take part in the minor conflicts of beleriand battles such as battle of tumhalad and battle of lammoth?


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## m4r35n357 (Apr 20, 2021)

Marches means land just outside the border, so one, I guess


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## Alcuin (Apr 21, 2021)

A _*march*_ is a borderland or demarcation of territory. From Etymology.com, march (n[oun],2),
"a frontier, boundary of a country; border district," early 13[th century], from Old French _marche_ "boundary, frontier," from Frankish _*marka_ or some other Germanic source (compare Old Saxon _marka_, Old English _mearc_; Old High German _marchon_ "to mark out, delimit," German _Mark_ "boundary"), from Proto-Germanic _*markō_; see *mark* (n.1)). Now obsolete. …

In early use often in reference to the borderlands beside Wales, sometimes rendering Old English _Mercia_; later especially of the English border with Scotland. There was a verb _marchen_ in Middle English (c. 1300), "to have a common boundary," from Old French _marchier_ "border upon, lie alongside," which survived in dialect.

This is the old Germanic word for "border, boundary," but as it came to mean "borderland" in many languages, other words were shifted or borrowed to indicate the original sense…​Tolkien, by the way, considered himself a _Mercian_. If we follow the link to _mark_, we find
"trace, impression," Old English _mearc_ (West Saxon), _merc_ (Mercian) "boundary, limit; sign, landmark," from Proto-Germanic _*markō_ (source also of Old Norse _merki_ "boundary, sign," _mörk_ "forest," which often marked a frontier; Old Frisian _merke_, Gothic _marka_ "boundary, frontier," Dutch _merk_ "mark, brand," German _Mark_ "boundary, boundary land"), from PIE root **merg-* "boundary, border." Influenced by, and partly from, Scandinavian cognates. …​Continue to _*merg-_ to find
Proto-Indo-European root meaning "boundary, border." …​To which we might add Tolkien’s Rohan, to which the Eorlingas (Rohirrim) referred to as “the _Mark_,” that is, the northern march or demarcation of Gondor, formerly their province of Calenardhon. 

So the *marches* of Doriath were their borderlands, which they monitored and patrolled. Melian set a magical barrier around the inner part of Doriath, the Girdle of Melian, but King Thingol claimed territory beyond the Girdle of Melian, and these would probably be considered the _marches_ of that land. m4r35n357 is correct in that there was one border, but the marches would typically be called the “north march,” the “east march,” and so forth to designate which region was under discussion. Carcharoth the Wolf of Angband burst through the Girdle of Melian along the north marches following the course of the Esgalduin. I believe Beren also entered Doriath from the north. I don’t think the boundary was unwatched there, or the Girdle of Melian was weak, but rather that Doom drove Beren and later Carcharoth into Doriath, and both came from the north, the wolf from Angband, Beren from the ruins of Dorthonion.

The Sindar did fight battles: the first great battle of Beleriand was fought between the Orcs and the Sindar before the Noldor under Fëanor in the purloined ships of the Teleri first arrived in Middle-earth; we recently discussed this in another thread, as you know, Ecthelion. 

The Battle of Lammoth was fought outside the range of Thingol’s power when Fingolfin and his host were attacked by Orcs attempting to outflank the Fëanorians from behind but came upon the greater host of the Noldor instead. The Battle of Tumhalad was also some distance from Doriath, fought on the plain of that name between the Narog and Ginglith north of Nargothrond; besides that, Thingol had thrown his own Noldorin kinsmen, the sons of Finarfin (Finrod and his brothers) and of Finarfin’s wife Eärwen, daughter of Thingol’s brother Olwë, out of Doriath at one time; Galadriel he permitted to remain in Menegroth, where she learned much of Melian. But there was tension between Thingol and the Noldor: the Sons of Fëanor were forbidden to enter Doriath because of their guilt in the First Kinslaying of the Teleri at Alqualondë in Eldamar; the sons of Finarfin seem later to have been permitted to return, for they were his kin; with the sons of Fingolfin, he also maintained friendship; but he banned the use of Quenya throughout his realm, and the Sindar spoke only their own tongue. 

There was a battle fought in the borders (marches) of Doriath after Lúthien went wandering to find Beren. In some accounts, Morgoth sent a force under his captain Boldog to attempt to find and seize Lúthien, but it was discovered and destroyed by Thingol and his army, which was equipped with Dwarvish weapons from Nogrod (and possibly Belegost, too), as Thingol was preparing an attack on Nargothrond where he believed the Fëanorian brothers Celegorm and Curufin were holding Lúthien against her will. Other battles or skirmishes that took place in the Marches of Doriath I do not recall, except the Hunt for the Wolf Carcharoth by Thingol, Beren, Mablung, Beleg, and Huan the Hound of Valinor, in which Huan killed Carcharoth but also died, and Beren was mortally wounded.


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## Turin_Turambar (Apr 21, 2021)

Alcuin said:


> A _*march*_ is a borderland or demarcation of territory. From Etymology.com, march (n[oun],2),
> ​"a frontier, boundary of a country; border district," early 13[th century], from Old French _marche_ "boundary, frontier," from Frankish _*marka_ or some other Germanic source (compare Old Saxon _marka_, Old English _mearc_; Old High German _marchon_ "to mark out, delimit," German _Mark_ "boundary"), from Proto-Germanic _*markō_; see *mark* (n.1)). Now obsolete. …​​In early use often in reference to the borderlands beside Wales, sometimes rendering Old English _Mercia_; later especially of the English border with Scotland. There was a verb _marchen_ in Middle English (c. 1300), "to have a common boundary," from Old French _marchier_ "border upon, lie alongside," which survived in dialect.​​This is the old Germanic word for "border, boundary," but as it came to mean "borderland" in many languages, other words were shifted or borrowed to indicate the original sense…​​Tolkien, by the way, considered himself a _Mercian_. If we follow the link to _mark_, we find
> ​"trace, impression," Old English _mearc_ (West Saxon), _merc_ (Mercian) "boundary, limit; sign, landmark," from Proto-Germanic _*markō_ (source also of Old Norse _merki_ "boundary, sign," _mörk_ "forest," which often marked a frontier; Old Frisian _merke_, Gothic _marka_ "boundary, frontier," Dutch _merk_ "mark, brand," German _Mark_ "boundary, boundary land"), from PIE root **merg-* "boundary, border." Influenced by, and partly from, Scandinavian cognates. …​​Continue to _*merg-_ to find
> ​Proto-Indo-European root meaning "boundary, border." …​​To which we might add Tolkien’s Rohan, to which the Eorlingas (Rohirrim) referred to as “the _Mark_,” that is, the northern march or demarcation of Gondor, formerly their province of Calenardhon.
> ...


Was there turin in the battles of the doriath marches? and why are these wars not named?


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## Olorgando (Apr 21, 2021)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> Was there turin in the battles of the doriath marches? and why are these wars not named?


There were not even battles on the Doriath marches, let alone wars, during Túrin's lifetime.
His involvement in serious military activity was in Nargothrond under the guise of "Mormegil", the "Black Sword", when he foolishly (or by "fate") convinced the forces of Nargothrond to fight Morgoth's forces more aggressively and openly - leading, in the climactic battle, to Nargothrond's destruction by Morgoth's forces and especially Glaurung. The attack of Brethil, Túrin's last refuge, was carried out by Glaurung alone, leading to the death of the dragon, as well as Túrin and his sister Nienor.


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## Turin_Turambar (Apr 21, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> There were not even battles on the Doriath marches, let alone wars, during Túrin's lifetime.
> His involvement in serious military activity was in Nargothrond under the guise of "Mormegil", the "Black Sword", when he foolishly (or by "fate") convinced the forces of Nargothrond to fight Morgoth's forces more aggressively and openly - leading, in the climactic battle, to Nargothrond's destruction by Morgoth's forces and especially Glaurung. The attack of Brethil, Túrin's last refuge, was carried out by Glaurung alone, leading to the death of the dragon, as well as Túrin and his sister Nienor.


but the tolkiengateway also writes that the turin fought on the doriath marches for 3 years.


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## Olorgando (Apr 21, 2021)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> but the tolkiengateway also writes that the turin fought on the doriath marches for 3 years.


I just checked my copy of Christopher Tolkien's 2007 "The Children of Húrin". There is, in the chapter V "Túrin in Doriath", the mention "... and [Túrin] was joined to the Elven-warriors who there waged unceasing *war* upon the Orcs and all servants and creatures of Morgoth." And on the next page "Thus three year passed."
"War" as used above is pure hyperbole compared to what are termed *real* battles or even wars in JRRT's legendarium. Unless taken as "deadly conflict of indeterminate size". Earlier in that chapter, Thingol firmly rejected any thought of sending his forces against Morgoth's in a offensive way (Nargothrond, as I mentioned above, disastrously did not resist Túrin's urging). That "warfare" that Túrin took part in were certainly defensive skirmishes against Morgoth's forces testing the Girdle of Melian. Their size is never mentioned, but they must have been far smaller that what was directed against Nargothrond. That girdle must have been quite awesome. I mean, why didn't Morgoth ever send Glaurung against Doriath? Perhaps even the wildest of Morgoth's forces were not keen on a mission that meant 100% certainty of death. Beren and Carcharoth breaching the girdle were extreme exceptions, both apparently driven by "fate" - and Carcharoth also had a Silmaril burning him up inside.
Whatever transpired on the marches of Doriath certainly was far too insignificant to be rated as a battle, and never mind a war.


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## Elthir (Apr 21, 2021)

Here's part of why the word _war_ was used in the long prose version of *The Children of Hurin.*

"... and *w*as joined to the Elven-*w*arriors who there *w*aged unceasing *w*ar upon the Orcs and all servants and creatures of Morgoth."

"then Hurin's son / took the helm of his sire
and *w*eapons *w*eighty / for the *w*ielding of men,
and he* w*ent to the *w*oods / *w*ith *w*arrior-elves,
and far in the forest / his feet led him
into black battle . . ."

The Lay of the Children of Hurin

And if anyone disagrees . . . *w*hatever


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## Olorgando (Apr 21, 2021)

Alliteration anarchist! 
Just popped into my mind ... my wife just before interrupted a train of thought on an entirely unconnected topic, so I felt the urge to record this "gem" for "posterity" ... yeah, not all gems are diamonds ... 😒


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