# The Last Alliance and the Absence of the Nazgul



## Sauron (Jun 19, 2008)

Would anyone like to hazard a guess why the Nazgul were -seemingly- not present at any of the battles associated between Sauron and the Last Alliance? 

I have always wondered about this. My personal guess is that they feared the armies of the Eldar more so than that of the Dunedain, since the elves who had been to Aman had the capacity to see the Nazgul as they really were. And during the waning years of the Second Age, there were many more of them than during the Third Age. 

If anyone has a better theory, do share your thoughts.


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## HLGStrider (Jun 19, 2008)

Does it state anywhere that they weren't there? I always assumed they were there in some capacity but simply unmentioned. They seemed to be most harmful to the enemy in frightening/demoralizing the troops and spreading black breath (which would only happen after the battle) during the War of the Ring. While they are certainly a powerful weapon I wouldn't see any need for them to be discussed in detail. 
There was an extremely long siege involved here. It would be impossible to record every battle or every detail of every battle.


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## YayGollum (Jun 20, 2008)

That makes sense to myself, as well. Sure, Ringwraiths could be quite useful. I wouldn't be surprised if they killed impressive numbers. But how much information are we given on that particular clash? We mostly got a description of the results. I suppose that the Tolkien person could have written a sentence about how rough of a time the good guys were having with invisible bogeymen, but it wasn't especially essential. 

The Ringwraiths staying out of the battle doesn't make sense, to myself. Why would they fear anything? I thought that they didn't even have any minds left, could only do what Sauron told them to do. And I doubt that Sauron would have been afraid of putting them out there. If one fell, he'd most likely just end up snaring the mind of whoever picked the Ring up next. It would be fun.


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## Tar-Surion (Jul 24, 2008)

A few jottings from me on an interesting subject. The advantage the Last Alliance had against the Nazgul was that there were a lot of Elves along: and against them the ghosts of men held no fear, and some of them at least were like Glorfindel powerful in both the physical and the ethereal realm. 

The Numenorean armies would have concentrated on butchering Orcs and Mordor-allied men but would have hidden behind the Elves when the Nazgul or other forms of undead sorcery were in use. 

It would have taken a lot of interesting drill and no doubt there would have been a few nasty surprises, but as long as the Elves were present in large enough numbers it should have worked; indeed it did work because the Alliance was victorious.

I seem to remember that Sauron failed largely because he struck too soon before his power was rebuilt, that is he didn't have big enough armies. 

Apart from the surprise attack on Minas Ithil it seems he did not have the initiative and was on the defensive at every stage of the war; a case of too much Nazgul and not enough Orc.


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## Bucky (Sep 6, 2008)

I wouldn't be surprised if they killed impressive numbers. But how much information are we given on that particular clash? We mostly got a description of the results. I suppose that the Tolkien person could have written a sentence about how rough of a time the good guys were having with invisible bogeymen, but it wasn't especially essential. 

*Well, considering that Tolkien states that their way is in fear & not open attack back in Bree, I am not so sure.

Aside from the Black Captain, none of the others seem to do anything in the War of the Ring except fly aroundterrorizing men & they didn't have any flying steeds back in the Last Alliance.

However, lack of info leaves things open for debate, plus the Black Captain was there too.*


The Numenorean armies would have concentrated on butchering Orcs and Mordor-allied men but would have hidden behind the Elves when the Nazgul or other forms of undead sorcery were in use. 

*That would be a little too difficult to plan in the heat of battle*

It would have taken a lot of interesting drill and no doubt there would have been a few nasty surprises, but as long as the Elves were present in large enough numbers it should have worked; indeed it did work because the Alliance was victorious.

*Speculation - their victory does not mean this exact scenario was played out.*

I seem to remember that Sauron failed largely because he struck too soon before his power was rebuilt, that is he didn't have big enough armies. 

*Waiting would've allowed the Numenoreans to build up too. Tolkien says Sauron came upon them before they were 'fully established'.*

Apart from the surprise attack on Minas Ithil it seems he did not have the initiative and was on the defensive at every stage of the war; a case of too much Nazgul and not enough Orc. 

*Again, we don't know about the Nazgul.*


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## Starflower (Sep 7, 2008)

Hmmm...

I'm not sure they WEREN'T there, just that we don't hear about them...
Sauron was at the height of his powers at this time, so why would he not employ his most powerful servants? 
Also the Nazgul cannot appear independent of Sauron himself, and as Gandalf does mention that the Nazgul have been seen before, the only time that they could feasibly have been visibly present is at the time of the LA.


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## HLGStrider (Sep 7, 2008)

It would make sense to me that the Nazgul still had the Black Breath ability for anyone who directly confronted them though I can't remember an instance of them being able to spread it through the ranks as a truly effective weapon. That said it would be a particularly demoralizing way to take out beloved captains.

Also, the dang things were just incredibly hard to kill. We only see the Witch King's death during the course of things, so I am assuming the remaining eight "remained" until the ring itself was destroyed. Which to me suggests that neither the Elves or Men found a way to kill them (either that or they were hiding somewhere or just really really lucky). You put ten mortals against 1 immortal and eventually the immortal will win just because he can't lose. Factor in the black breath if you get too close and the fact that they don't need to eat or sleep and you have a very effective super soldier. Only nine of them, admittedly, and it won't win a battle, but it wouldn't hurt.


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## Alcuin (Sep 7, 2008)

The chief power of the Nazgûl is their ability to inspire fear. It might be that, under leaders freshly arrived from the Downfall of Númenor and the struggles with Ar-Pharazôn and Sauron that led to that disaster, the Dúnedain were less susceptible to Morgul-induced fear that were their descendents as the Third Age wore on. 

The last seven years of Númenor were terrible for the Faithful Númenóreans. Ar-Pharazôn had brought Sauron to the island and quickly fallen under the sway of the evil Maia, so that he even countenanced human sacrifice. Isildur was nearly killed seizing a fruit of the White Tree of Armenelos, and Sauron and Ar-Pharazôn were hounding all the Faithful from one end of the island to the other. 

It is no stretch to assume that Elendil, his father, and his sons knew Sauron personally from his “captivity” in Númenor: Elendil and Pharazôn certainly knew one another well, since Elendil’s father Amandil, 18th and last Lord of Andúnië, was the leading nobleman of Númenor: the house of Valandil son of Silmariën of Andúnië was second in rank only to the House of Elros itself; there is even some textual evidence in _Sauron Defeated_ (in the material on “The Drowning of Anadûnê”) that Elendil and Pharazôn might have been friends in their youth. Once Elendil and his sons were in Middle-earth, it is likely that Gil-galad revealed to them at least some of the lore of the Elven Rings in order to design and pursue the strategies of the Last Alliance of Elves and Men. 

Given all this, how likely is it that Elendil, Isildur, or Anárion bore an unreasoning fear of Sauron? Elendil and Isildur certainly did not! They faced him head-on with Gil-galad and Elrond on the slopes of Orodruin. Under leaders exuding such confidence and fearlessness, the Númenórean commanders of the Dúnedain forces were unlikely to be overcome by fear of the Nazgûl either, leaving the Ringwraiths with significant, but not overwhelming, advantages. (Scattering sand, dust, or flour when Men sensed their presence would go far in overcoming their invisibility: in that case, the fear they generated worked against their advantage in invisibility. A few such incidents might soon make the Nazgûl more cautious in their activities against the Dúnedain: while they could remain effective, they would have to be more careful.)

It might be simply that the Nazgûl were active in the War of the Last Alliance at the end of the Second Age, but that they were unable to achieve any great victory by “virtue” of their being Nazgûl. In the War of the Ring at the end of the Third Age, their assault was essentially against one place, Minas Tirith, last of the Númenórean fortresses of Middle-earth; in the War of the Last Alliance, there were Númenórean fortresses scattered across Middle-earth, with many fearless leaders (like Aragorn and Faramir and Imrahil of Dol Amroth – and even Denethor and Boromir at their best) and many more Dúnedain to resist and fight and attack them. Fear is most effective when the prey is at bay; it is not so effective against an attacker on assault. 

Finally, we should all remember that *absence of evidence is not evidence of absence*. That Tolkien does not delineate the movements and achievements of the Nazgûl in the War of the Last Alliance is not evidence that they were not present, that they did not participate, or that they made no notable achievements: it means that Tolkien’s focus as storyteller was on the strategic achievements of Elendil, Isildur, and Anárion – particularly on those of Elendil and Isildur. We know the course of the war only in the sketchiest terms. The action and strategy are fleshed out only as much as is required to tell the rest of the story, but the tactics are, as far as I can tell, not discussed at all.


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## Aisteru (Sep 7, 2008)

I would be willing to bet that the Nazgul were behind a large majority of the strategy (what little there was) that the forces of Mordor launched against the Alliance. Orcs of the second age were much less sophisticated than their third age brethren with whom we are more familiar through the LOTR trilogy. The army of Sauron would need some form of leading force so the Nazgul, while not in the midst of battle, would play an integral part of....generals, for lack of a better word.


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## Illuin (Sep 7, 2008)

> by Aisteru
> _"generals, for lack of a better word"_


 


Chickens, for lack of a better word (just like their coward master). It wasn’t until it was “do or die” that Sauron decided that he had better involve himself; or game over. The Nazgul were terrified of the Elves; especially the High Elves who had lived in the West, because they had power in the unseen world. The Nazgul may have pulled some strings from behind the scenes; but my guess is that since they basically were nothing but extensions; or “offshoots” of Sauron himself (i.e. Sauron‘s will encased in a vessel, or container); they were cowering in some tower or fortress; barking orders at the seemingly unending "dispensable" host of Orcs. When Sauron was defeated at the end of the Second Age; the Nazgul went into hiding for 1,300 years. Just a bunch of spineless bullies, brownnosers - and without their leader on the schoolyard playground; helpless, and good for nothing.


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## Aisteru (Sep 7, 2008)

haha, well put Illuin.


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## HLGStrider (Sep 7, 2008)

At one point the Nazgul had been "great lords of men" so it is logical to assume they had some sort of military experience/know how. Aist is right that they very likely took some strategic/planning position.


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