# How the orcs first came to being



## cab345 (Feb 7, 2003)

They were tortured by morgoth....and then they were grown, till they were in vast numbers. 

But here my question, this is all very nice, but turture only changes the fenotype of an elf, not the genotype, so the parents are orcs, but if they get children, they will be elves...

So my only idea is that they were also tortured by morgoth's magic...

what do you think?


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## HelplessModAddi (Feb 7, 2003)

You know, he didn't just torture them, he also did OTHER things..... verrryyy.... nassstttyyy... thingssssssss.....

This post not appropriate for children under 10.


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## Gothmog (Feb 7, 2003)

There is no truel answer to this question as not even Tolkien himself could say how Orcs were produced. He never gave a final decision, it cannot even be said for certain that Elves were involved in the production of Orcs.


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## Walter (Feb 7, 2003)

Tolkien, in his later years, wasn't quite happy with an "Elvish" origin of Orcs and pondered a lot of other possible origins (though none seemed fully satisfying to him). For more information about this discrepancy see the History of Middle-earth (Vol V & X mainly) or checkout the "summary" at the TolkienWiki:

The Origin of Orcs


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## Hama (Feb 8, 2003)

Also, he does say that it is only rumored that Orcs are the descendants of corrupted Elves. The origin of orcs is somewhat clouded in mystery. Perhaps PJ has an answer (pods anyone?)


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