# The Silmarillion Movie: Will it ever be made?



## srlotr27 (Apr 8, 2021)

I've been reading The Silmarillion and am over halfway through. Many of the events in the book are so extraordinary and ethereal that it seems like producing a movie would be an extremely tough task. None the less I really want to see a movie made, it almost has to because it is the only work left from Tolkien's middle earth which hasn't been brought to the silver screen. What are your thoughts? I made a poll with some responses!


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## Tinúviel- (Apr 8, 2021)

It doesn't need to be. But if it is, I hope they stick to the source material without inserting any stupid agendas/propoganda.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Apr 8, 2021)

In comparison with film, I prefer TV series. Yet if streamlining it well, I think it's worthy to try.


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## Olorgando (Apr 8, 2021)

I voted "No, because ..." for one reason.
If you mean the entire published book, it would be "No way!"
The constituent parts "Ainulindalë", "Valaquenta", "Quenta Silmarillion", "Akallabêth" and "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" are just too disparate to fit into one movie. And the time period covered is all roughly 7,000 Years of the Sun, plus the preceding Years of the Two Trees, plus the time before that, when the Valar and Maiar had not even settled in (fled to) Valinor.

Some *stories* - the Big Three "The Children of Húrin", "Beren and Lúthien", and "The Fall of Gondolin" come to mind naturally - might be considered filmable. All three, however, cover years if not - if childhood and youth are included - decades. PJ did compress the 17 years between Bilbo's long-expected party and Frodo's departure from Hobbiton into an undetermined, but certainly much shorter period.

I have wondered if one consideration for Christopher Tolkien publishing the Big Three as stand-alone books (2007, 2017 and 2018, respectively) might have been copyright. Relative to the published "Silmarillion" that makes an extension of 30 respectively 40 and 41 years.


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## Ealdwyn (Apr 8, 2021)

There is enough material in the Sil for a movie - and more - to be made of each chapter. That said, I don't want to see movies/TV series made.

I don't see how anyone could bring life to JRRTs vision. PJs LotR movies had their good points, but there was so much that was disappointing. The Hobbit movies are a hot mess. The problem is that the studios only ever view it as an opportunity to make a shed load of money. While that mindset exists, and while the 'art' of JRRT is secondary to making money, we will never have an interpretation that does the material justice.



Olorgando said:


> I have wondered if one consideration for Christopher Tolkien publishing the Big Three as stand-alone books (2007, 2017 and 2018, respectively) might have been copyright. Relative to the published "Silmarillion" that makes an extension of 30 respectively 40 and 41 years.


A good point. It wouldn't surprise me in the least.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Apr 8, 2021)

Nope, PJ would make it awful as he did with The Hobbit and LOTR and I don't trust anyone else to do it justice.


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## Olorgando (Apr 8, 2021)

Doing it, or them, the books, justice isn't necessarily the point, as we have found out in PJ's six films.
I still would hesitate to bet against our getting nostalgic for PJ's work (at least LoTR, and especially FoTR), after the Amazon series starts. 🥶


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 8, 2021)

The Amazon series is set in the Second Age, so may cover part of the Silmarillion -- perhaps the Fall of Numenor -- but who knows?


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## Miguel (Apr 8, 2021)

A compilation of animated short films depicting it would be nice, like Animatrix. If some of it could be directed by Yoshiaki Kawajiri it would be amazing.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 8, 2021)

I still have the Russian and Finnish LOTR's to watch. 😂


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## Tinúviel- (Apr 9, 2021)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> The Amazon series is set in the Second Age, so may cover part of the Silmarillion -- perhaps the Fall of Numenor -- but who knows?


A very woke Silmarillion 😬


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## Shadow (Apr 9, 2021)

I can’t see an adaption happening anytime soon.


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## Oromedur (Apr 9, 2021)

In time I think we will see elements of The Silmarillion on screen. Hopefully in the form of a TV series.

It wouldn’t make sense to even try to bring it to any form of screen media as an individual piece because it is not an individual piece.


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## Shadow (Apr 9, 2021)

If the Amazon show is well received and the Second Age is mined to the limit, they could move further back in time. I agree the small screen is the best chance at it happening.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 9, 2021)

I think the main obstacle to it is the Tolkien Estate owning the rights to the First Age material, and I believe they're very leery about releasing them.


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## Halasían (Apr 10, 2021)

Every time I see polls like this, it seems that Peter Jackson has to be included as some sort of Tolkien Middle Earth god of some sort. He eff'd up the Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit, and i hope he doesnt get the chance to eff up the stories in the Silmarillion.


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## Keith Mathison (Apr 11, 2021)

I hope no one ever tries to make film versions of these tales. They would almost certainly turn the earliest stories into something silly looking. Consider every movie that has ever been made with gods and goddesses as main characters. They all look ridiculous.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 11, 2021)

I thought Niall McGinnis and Honor Blackman were pretty good as Zeus and Hera in "Jason and the Argonauts". They weren't main characters, of course.


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## Olorgando (Apr 24, 2021)

Halasían said:


> Every time I see polls like this, it seems that Peter Jackson has to be included as some sort of Tolkien Middle Earth god of some sort. He eff'd up the Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit, and i hope he doesnt get the chance to eff up the stories in the Silmarillion.


That't our (book nerd) view as to what PJ did with the content that was the basis for his films.
Hollywood suits don't care squat about any content except one: the content of the kitty, aka box office receipts.
What are those numbers?
LoTR $ 2.98 billion box office gross, budget $ 281 million
TH $ 2.93 billion box office gross, budget $ 655 million

Target audience? Certainly not us. Perhaps the one time anyone was nervous about the "bookies" was at the premiere of "Fellowship" in December 2001. They had already done principal photography for all three films (no idea what portion of the total budget that meant), so a hostile reaction might have put the whole enterprise in jeopardy. Book sales for LoTR spiked in that time 2001-2004, not sure if the effect was as big for TH, it definitely being a children's book. But the core audience was and remains the film-only crowd.

And, like it or not, PJ's stuff is the gold standard for film or TV visuals for Middle-earth (and probably a lot of other stuff, too). Even if he's not involved in any way, the Amazon crowd will be unlikely to try and reinvent Middle-earth from scratch. They might do some borrowing from more recent stuff, like GoT, or ... what's that stuff I keep getting reading suggestions about? ... "Vikings", I think. Having seen neither, others must judge if these seem to have been influenced - or not - by PJ's Middle-earth visuals, or by each other ...


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## srlotr27 (Apr 25, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> That't our (book nerd) view as to what PJ did with the content that was the basis for his films.
> Hollywood suits don't care squat about any content except one: the content of the kitty, aka box office receipts.
> What are those numbers?
> LoTR $ 2.98 billion box office gross, budget $ 281 million
> ...



I agree with you. The money is always the one major factor when it comes down to high budget theatrical productions, and if there is a projection that the Silmarillion would bring in it would certainly be in the works. The matter is, finding the person to commit to bringing the writings to life. And that is why I think the demand would simply be to great as the Silmarillion seems like a very difficult book to adapt to film without royally pissing off the fans, hence my understanding and agreement with the consensus that book fans would not support him or ANY director that doesn't completely include all the details that always get left out of movie adaptations. (Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones, Harry Potter, etc.)

However, to any one potentially invested in an adaptation that opposes the fact that Peter Jackson would make the most sense as a director for a hypothetical Silmarillion film just doesn't resonate with me. To say that anyone other director could be chosen just wouldn't sit right in my opinion given he does hold some weight of the series that fans like myself have come to love. The Amazon production of Middle Earth makes sense not have PJ because its a spin off that he might not have even been asked to be part of, or could have the ability to accept due to previous commitments. (someone fact check me if you know otherwise, it would be interesting to read up on). Quite frankly I might not even be interested in watching the Amazon series either, but that remains to be seen.

The Silmarillion would be a gem of its own that would require the same attention that of which Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit received and then some if it were to be made. 

Now, the weird thing is, I am writing here to support Peter Jackson due to the fact that he was ultimately the person who was chosen as director of the past films. Who is to say that if it were another director who took on the role wouldn't have done an equal or better job? We will never know, unless there is some sort of alternate universe where say Guillermo Del Toro directed it, but I hope you understand why I stand by Peter Jackson being the best person for the job.


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## Olorgando (Apr 25, 2021)

srlotr27 said:


> We will never know, unless there is some sort of alternate universe where say Guillermo Del Toro directed it, but I hope you understand why I stand by Peter Jackson being the best person for the job.


I have repeatedly posted that other versions, by other directors / producers / scriptwriters could have been worse.
But I would reformulate "best" as "lesser of two ..." or perhaps "least of X evils".
And all of this is from a "book-nerd", most of us probably belonging to the "read the book first" set, point of view.
The film-only set probably are puzzled what all the excitement, even furor is about ... 🥺


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## Aragorn II Elessar (May 7, 2021)

Is silmarillion film made one day? Or is there no such possibility? Is it true that christopher Tolkien had an agreement before he died that there would be no film series adaptations about the silmarillion until 100 years after his death?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (May 8, 2021)

I hadn't heard that, though it has been stated here that Amazon was prohibited from adapting anything about the First Age, so it's possible. 

There is at least one thread around here somewhere discussing possible ways Sil could be adapted. I can't seem to locate it at the moment, but you can look for it, if you're curious. 

Never know what you'll turn up.😊


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## Erestor Arcamen (May 15, 2021)

Combined Echtelion's thread with this one since it's basically the same question


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (May 15, 2021)

Aha -- you found it.

Demonstrating once again that you're a much better searcher than I am. 😁


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## Melkor (Sep 11, 2021)

I would like to see Quenta Silmarilion as TV series, but just in case that it will do it someone passionate about Tolkien's universe, someone who can make it justice. Which seems almost impossible. I think that it can be filmed, but as I said before, this must be made with love. If not, it will be trash.


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## m4r35n357 (Sep 12, 2021)

Film/TV or it didn't happen!


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## Goku da Silva (Nov 13, 2021)

The whole book is too grand(and at the same time imcomplete) for any film or trilogy, but why not adapt parts of it like the ones we have the whole story, for example: The sons of Húrin?🙏


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## Olorgando (Nov 14, 2021)

Goku da Silva said:


> The whole book is too grand(and at the same time imcomplete) for any film or trilogy, but why not adapt parts of it like the ones we have the whole story, for example: The sons of Húrin?🙏


Húrin only had one son, Túrin, the oldest child. The other two children were the first daughter, Urwen, called Lailath ('Laughter'), who died in infancy from a plague that came out of Angband, and the second daughter Nienor, later called by Túrin, who didn't realize she was his sister, Niniel ('Tear-maiden').
🤨


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## CirdanLinweilin (Nov 14, 2021)

Keith Mathison said:


> I hope no one ever tries to make film versions of these tales. They would almost certainly turn the earliest stories into something silly looking. Consider every movie that has ever been made with gods and goddesses as main characters. They all look ridiculous.
> 
> View attachment 9188


Not a movie or show but the Game series God of War does deities extremely well.


CL


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## Bellerophon (Dec 4, 2021)

I thought the film adaptions of LOTR were brilliant, but the Hobbit was a travesty. The story was spread too thinly and the action scenes ridiculous. I an thinking particularly of the chase through the goblin mines where all the characters get up unharmed after a fall of 100ft (several times).

With the Silmarillion the narrative content is enough for 10 films but the condensed nature of the writing would require filling out. Who could do that?


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## HALETH✒🗡 (Dec 4, 2021)

No or it should be a part of elite culture (not a new blockbuster). It should be as perfect and deep film as movies by Tarkovsky.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Dec 4, 2021)

If you mean a smaller, art film, I'm afraid any Tolkien "property" -- to use the industry term -- would be far too valuable to be anything but a megamillion-budget project, should the estate ever agree to sell the rights.


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## HALETH✒🗡 (Dec 4, 2021)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> If you mean a smaller, art film, I'm afraid any Tolkien "property" -- to use the industry term -- would be far too valuable to be anything but a megamillion-budget project, should the estate ever agree to sell the rights.


I respect your opinion, but if the film adaptation of "Silmarillion" is suitable for millions of people, there will be risk that the movie won't be as good for those who are really interested in Tolkien (like us).


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## Olorgando (Dec 5, 2021)

HALETH✒🗡 said:


> I respect your opinion, but if the film adaptation of "Silmarillion" is suitable for millions of people, there will be risk that the movie won't be as good for those who are really interested in Tolkien (like us).


Agreed. But that's exactly what happened with LoTR and TH, much more massively for the latter.
And while Amazon isn't filming The Sil, rather something about the Second Age, I vaguely remember that they paid some hefty sums for the rights. Their "advantage" is that there are huge gaps in details of the Second Age, *much* more so than for TH, so they can (I hesitate to say "have to") invent a lot of stuff.

This one invention did raise a lot of eyebrows, I'd guess - *young* Galadriel?:









Lord of the Rings on Prime Updates (Thanks Varking!)


Requesting Shippey :D Is Oren "Orendil", Isildur?. Maybe a provisional nickname?. Or they could just ask Shippey, yeah. This doesn't bode faithfulness to the text if they can't even be faithful with something as simple as names! CL




www.thetolkienforum.com





And since we're talking about pay TV, the suspicion that Amazon are aiming for a "Game of Thrones 2.0" comes naturally, at least to me.


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## HALETH✒🗡 (Dec 5, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> Agreed. But that's exactly what happened with LoTR and TH, much more massively for the latter.
> And while Amazon isn't filming The Sil, rather something about the Second Age, I vaguely remember that they paid some hefty sums for the rights. Their "advantage" is that there are huge gaps in details of the Second Age, *much* more so than for TH, so they can (I hesitate to say "have to") invent a lot of stuff.
> 
> This one invention did raise a lot of eyebrows, I'd guess - *young* Galadriel?:


I quite like LoTR and TH by Peter Jackson, but there's no doubt that the books are better. And I'm not sure that Amazon will create something good enough. Though I'm looking forward to watching the series as maybe my suspicions are too pessimistic.


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## HALETH✒🗡 (Dec 5, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> Their "advantage" is that there are huge gaps in details of the Second Age, *much* more so than for TH, so they can (I hesitate to say "have to") invent a lot of stuff


Yeah, by the way, Christopher Tolkien managed not to invent anything.


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## Olorgando (Dec 5, 2021)

HALETH✒🗡 said:


> Yeah, by the way, Christopher Tolkien managed not to invent anything.


Not quite true. By his own admission, he did have to invent a bit in the published Silmarillion, about the end of Elu Thingol (in- or outside of Doriath) in a conflict with the Dwarves about the Nauglamir, the necklace of the Dwarves in which was set the Silmaril won by Lúthien and Beren. Mostly, I guess by what Christopher then published in the 2017 "Beren and Lúthien", to reconcile what was in total the most confused and contradictory "Great Tale", even though JRRT considered it the one most dear to himself. Daddy just never cleaned up the mess.


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## HALETH✒🗡 (Dec 5, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> Not quite true. By his own admission, he did have to invent a bit in the published Silmarillion, about the end of Elu Thingol (in- or outside of Doriath) in a conflict with the Dwarves about the Nauglamir, the necklace of the Dwarves in which was set the Silmaril won by Lúthien and Beren. Mostly, I guess by what Christopher then published in the 2017 "Beren and Lúthien", to reconcile what was in total the most confused and contradictory "Great Tale", even though JRRT considered it the one most fear to himself. Daddy just never cleaned up the mess.


Anyway, Christopher Tolkien's work is impressive)


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## Radaghast (Jan 2, 2022)

On my phone so just a general comment on the idea of a Silmarillion film before I go through the thread, so sorry if I repeat points already made.

_The Silmarillion_ can't be made as a movie because it's an anthology and a summary of the three Ages Tolkien wrote about. Its scope is too broad and there are not enough details or dialogue. This isn't stopping Amazon from attempting to make eight seasons out of the Second Age, apparently, but that's nut (so nuts to them 😡).

Anyway, you could perhaps make a movie out of individual stories. _The Children of Húrin _could work except it's not exactly a crowd-pleaser and its protagonist is a jerk. _Beren and Lúthien_ would probably work better as it's one of the few stories with anything resembling a happy ending.

But taking an individual story out of the context of the overall story might present some problems.


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## Ealdwyn (Jan 2, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> But taking an individual story out of the context of the overall story might present some problems.


I agree. Beren & Luthien would work best, but even B&L requires a HUGE amount of knowledge of the events of the 1st age, right back to the creation of the Silmarils. It's hard to see how you could present the story in isolation.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jul 25, 2022)

Good news!


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## Ealdwyn (Jul 25, 2022)




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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jul 25, 2022)

Well, he has a specific goal in mind.


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## Ent (Jul 25, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> That't our (book nerd) view as to what PJ did with the content that was the basis for his films.
> Hollywood suits don't care squat about any content except one: the content of the kitty, aka box office receipts.
> What are those numbers?
> LoTR $ 2.98 billion box office gross, budget $ 281 million
> ...



With this I find I am in agreement... sadly OUR desire for fidelity is not their desire at all. 
Greed and avarice is what drives most of mankind, and the one objective of the production of a movie (of this and most kinds) is maximization of the targeted audience to maximize the puffing of the pocketbook.


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## Uminya (Jul 25, 2022)

I think the Sil (or stories within it) would be done well as an animated series. To be honest I am not really keen on live action "gritty" fantasy like LotR, GoT, etc any more, and it would be nice to see Tolkien's work to get well planned animations since there's a much bigger audience for serious animation now than there was in Ralph Bakshi's day.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Jul 25, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Well, he has a specific goal in mind.
> View attachment 14628


Is this real? I must question...


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jul 25, 2022)

Question reality.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Jul 25, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Question reality.


Wow. That is a shocker honestly. Also.. What? Feanor did SO MUCH wrong!


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Jul 25, 2022)

Keith Mathison said:


> I hope no one ever tries to make film versions of these tales. They would almost certainly turn the earliest stories into something silly looking. Consider every movie that has ever been made with gods and goddesses as main characters. They all look ridiculous.
> 
> View attachment 9188


What is this from? I have no clue


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Jul 25, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Well, he has a specific goal in mind.
> View attachment 14628


At least this part MUST be fake. It is from October 2018.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 15, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Feanor did SO MUCH wrong!​


_Did he have a choice? He lost Míriel...he lost Finwë....he lost his sons., all seven save for one..and in the end, he lost his Silmarils...and e'ermore shall he be bound 'til the End of Arda in the Halls of Mandos.

Forgive me, Elentári, but I shall go against thee upon this, for the first of times, 'til you change my mind, for I would say he had little choice. And thus, I pity him, for truly, how could he have done anything different when his Paths were tainted by Sorrow and Grief from the very beginning? Would he have known what was right for himself, when he had none other to depend on?_​


Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> At least this part MUST be fake. It is from October 2018.


_It's probably all fake then-_


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## Radaghast (Aug 15, 2022)

He had not choice in initiating the Kinslaying?


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 15, 2022)

_He did lose Miriel, and Finwe, and for that he must be pitied, yet pity does not rule out any cause for judgement, and in the oath that he had taken, much fell to Darkness. See this not therefore as a cruel and heartless action of his, for I feel it originated from passion and drive, and yet I feel indeed it is a sad fate that came to pass. Indeed, he did much wrong, and yet it was much of things beyond his touch and control that led him down such paths. Judge him not cruelly then, I say! Condemn him in his wrongful deeds, not! Yet do not follow in his ways, for they have been fallen, and indeed, he had fallen much, from pride, and from a self-seeking within his own being. _


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 15, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> He had not choice in initiating the Kinslaying?


_Ah...this...I have no say upon this..._



Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> _Judge him not cruelly then, I say! Condemn him in his wrongful deeds, not!_


_'Tis not in my ways to condemn him as such, for though I have the Gift of Time, judgement is not my portion, but rather the portion of that which hath been sundered from me._


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 15, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> _'Tis not in my ways to condemn him as such, for though I have the Gift of Time, judgement is not my portion, but rather the portion of that which hath been sundered from me._


_Indeed. It is so._


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## Ealdwyn (Aug 15, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> _Did he have a choice? He lost Míriel...he lost Finwë....he lost his sons., _​


He lost Miriel, yes. 
Finwe's death was a consequence of Feanor believing Morgoth's lies that Fingolfin was trying to usurp him, causing both Feanor and Finwe to be exiled from Valinor, and then refusing to give the SIlmarils to the Valar. Feanor's sons were lost as a result of his possessiveness for the Silmarils and his choice to swear an oath and pursue Morgoth to Beleriand. Apart from the loss of Miriel, it was all entirely Feanor's choice.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 15, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> He lost Miriel, yes.
> Finwe's death was a consequence of Feanor believing Morgoth's lies that Fingolfin was trying to usurp him, causing both Feanor and Finwe to be exiled from Valinor, and then refusing to give the SIlmarils to the Valar. Feanor's sons were lost as a result of his possessiveness for the Silmarils and his choice to swear an oath and pursue Morgoth to Beleriand. Apart from the loss of Miriel, it was all entirely Feanor's choice.


_Choice you may call it, yet all was laid upon the threads of Fate woven beforehand._


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 15, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> _Choice you may call it, yet all was laid upon the threads of Fate woven beforehand._


_The Music of Ainulindale?_


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## Ealdwyn (Aug 15, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> _Choice you may call it, yet all was laid upon the threads of Fate woven beforehand._


But if you believe that it's all down to Fate then you're saying there's no free will. If there's no free will then nobody can be condemned for doing anything wrong because they could not have done anything else. By the same argument neither Morgoth or Sauron did anything wrong.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 15, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> But if you believe that it's all down to Fate then you're saying there's no free will. If there's no free will then nobody can be condemned for doing anything wrong because they could not have done anything else. By the same argument neither Morgoth or Sauron did anything wrong.


Good points-- in certain ways.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 15, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> _The Music of Ainulindale?_


_Yes, of which the Ainulindalé stands as many complex threads Woven into One. And can Fate and free Will co-exist?_


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## Ealdwyn (Aug 15, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> _Yes, of which the Ainulindalé stands as many complex threads Woven into One. And can Fate and free Will co-exist?_


It depends what you mean by "Fate". Predeterminism or predestination?
If all events are already woven in the threads, as you describe it, then that would suggest predestination and no free will.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 15, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> If all events are already woven in the threads, as you describe it, then that would suggest predestination and no free will.


_Ah, you put me at a loss of words for this...

Congratulations...I guess? I do indeed have my limits...yet Words are limiting in themselves._


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 15, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> _Yes, of which the Ainulindalé stands as many complex threads Woven into One. And can Fate and free Will co-exist?_


_It is the ways of Illuvatar, that choice and Fate may co-exist._


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## Ealdwyn (Aug 15, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> _Ah, you put me at a loss of words for this...
> 
> Congratulations...I guess? I do indeed have my limits...yet Words are limiting in themselves._


This is an good question and would make a great discussion: is there predeterminism and/or predestination in ME?

I've just done a quick search of LotR, and nowhere does Tolkien use the words destiny or destined. Interesting for a man so very precise with his language.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 15, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> This is an good question and would make a great discussion: is there predeterminism and/or predestination in ME?
> 
> I've just done a quick search of LotR, and nowhere does Tolkien use the words destiny or destined. Interesting for a man so very precise with his language.


I would imagine that he used the same belief as the Christian/Catholic belief. That Illuvatar would have known every outcome possible, and what would come to pass, but still the people were given free choice-- only that He knew.


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## Ealdwyn (Aug 15, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> I would imagine that he used the same belief as the Christian/Catholic belief. That Illuvatar would have known every outcome possible, and what would come to pass, but still the people were given free choice-- only that He knew.


Yes, I agree. But knowing every possible outcome means that there is more than one outcome. So events are not already determined.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 15, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> Yes, I agree. But knowing every possible outcome means that there is more than one outcome. So events are not already determined.


Exactly. They are not already determined, but Illuvatar would know exactly what they would be. Hard to wrap my head around-- but how it is nonetheless.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 15, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Exactly. They are not already determined, but Illuvatar would know exactly what they would be. Hard to wrap my head around-- but how it is nonetheless.


_Words may be limiting sometimes. _


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 15, 2022)

Yes they can be at times, yet they cooperated for me this time.


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## Ent (Aug 15, 2022)

This is the deepest point of the entire "predestination vs. free will" debate, which I have engaged with and studied for 40 years.

It is incredibly difficult to 'wrap one's head around' as it can only be discerned from a spiritual perspective. Man does not have the capacity.

That said, it's also a 'dangerous' topic - and far astray (or so it seems) from the original thread's intent.

(And I don't think this is the right place to engage in it. It has not been resolved by the greatest theological minds throughout history, and will not be resolved by us, here, today, or any time soon.)

Yet people on both sides of the 'debate' (and actually there is a 3rd and even a 4th side at a minimum) most frequently insist "they are right" - thus, the deterioration into argument. 

So even if there were a "right forum" for this discussion here, I personally believe I would refrain from entering into it. 

My only plea is that we don't try to 'convince' one another of 'right or wrong' on this issue here... it is, quite frankly, beyond our limited human minds to grasp, and again, only spiritually discerned.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 15, 2022)

It is a dangerous, and intriguing topic. I assume this has been discussed here before..


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## Olorgando (Aug 15, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> (And I don't think this is the right place to engage in it. It has not been resolved by the greatest theological minds throughout history, and will not be resolved by us, here, today, or any time soon.)


Nor will it ever be solved by the greatest theological minds of any era.


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## Elthir (Aug 15, 2022)

Well, off topic as it is (in this thread) I don't think we need to solve the matter with respect to the Primary World, but we could discuss the matter in some measure with respect to Tolkien's Subcreated World . . .

. . . and for that I would recommend reading *Fate and Free Will* in _The Nature of Middle-Earth_ --
see also Fate and Free Will in Tolkien Studies volume VI, edited by Carl Hostetter, which is there presented after Verlyn Flieger's essay: *The Music and the Task: Fate and Free Will in Middle-Earth.*

As I once tried to sum up Verlyn Flieger's opinion (please consider that her full argument is going to be much more persuasive, even *if* I have accurately "potted" her argument in one brief sentence): V.F. argues that Elves do not have free will in an "external sense" -- that is, their choices cannot change external outcomes but may have inner consequences for them, as with Feanor choosing not to surrender the Silmarils.

Or, another time I tried to briefly present her opinion: Verlyn Flieger argues that Elves have no free will with respect to altering events. She uses Feanor's choice (regarding the surrender of the Silmarils) as an illustration of events not being altered (and speaking more generally now) _"but deeply influencing the inner nature of individuals involved in those events."_

I actually disagree with V. Flieger here.

And on that note, I also recommend: *Strange and Free — On Some Aspects of the Nature of Elves and Men*, by Thomas Fornet-Ponse, Tolkien Studies volume VII.

And I hope (once again) that CFH will forgive that I lift him out of the context of a larger discussion (elsewhere), to post this much of his interesting commentary:

*__________*

"Tolkien does not ascribe Free Will to Men (and by implication deny it to Elves) in any text save the very first pencil draft of what became "The _Ainulindale_". Already in the next, fair copy version Tolkien replaced the term "will" with "virtue"; and these terms are not interchangeable. Virtue is _power_ (i.e., ability and/or efficacy), not (simply) will (i.e., intent/choice). I submit that the usual dichotomy drawn between Fate and Free Will in these discussions is false. Tolkien makes it quite plain that Will is operative only _within_ "provided circumstances" (i.e. of the World (_ambar_) and of Fate (_umbar_); see _Letters_ p. 195): thus they are _not_ mutually exclusive terms."

[different response]

"Furthermore, Tolkien's own discussion in the unpublished note on "Fate and Free Will" certainly makes no claim or even implication that Free Will obtains only when there is an _ultimate_ consequence to its exercise. Rather, there, "free will" is defined as obtaining when (and only when, but by implication _always_ when) a determination of course (action or inaction) is made for a "fully-aware purpose", amid the physical conditions and processes of the world (_ambar_) and the network of chances within "fate" (_umbar_). As Tolkien says in _Letters_, Free Will is "derivative" (i.e., I take it, of God's will and of His creation of the world and of rational creatures which He endows with will) and therefore always operates "within provided circumstances". As these unpublished notes explain, these "circumstances" are both _ambar_ 'the world' and _umbar_ 'fate': and these are "provided", of course, ultimately by Eru himself. Obviously, exercises of Free Will so defined can have moral valuation, can even be "sinful", _within_ the world and apart from questions of one's _ultimate_ destiny, since they can either accord with or violate the moral standards of the world that ultimately also derive from Eru."

CF Hostetter
*__________*

Perhaps it was fate that this topic should emerge in this thread?

Or something!


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 15, 2022)

This has fallen far off of topic. According to the title-- we are supposed to be discussing if a Silmarillion movie will ever be made...


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