# The Valar's armies



## Lhunithiliel (Aug 14, 2003)

_*Where did the Valar take warriors for their armies from?*_

I asked this question in another thread, and I got one answer :
"Vanyar, Teleri...some Noldor...perhaps led by Maia officers"...and someone could have perhaps added Fionwe.... 

Not enough!... 

Because ... To have armies of the size and numbers of soldiers as the Valar had.... I wonder: were these armies of the Valar built by Elves only?
This is "shaky" to assume as being true even at the War of Wrath as it is described how the Vanyar sent their warriors to join the forces of the Valar.... and the Teleri provided ships (never sent armed forces to help ME!)...etc. Then, it somehow turns out that the Valar had *their own* warriors/soldiers and the Elves just joined these to form the massive army that opposed Morgoth.

Besides, if I'm not mistaken, the Valar fought Melkor even *before* the awakening of the Elves! So? *Who* fought?

And another question that comes right out from the above :

*Why did the Valar have armies?*

I mean... even at their very first fight against Melkor they already had an impressive army! 
I can understand building an armed force after it had become obvious that they had to deal with Melkor by war!
But *before* the first conflict?!?!? Why would they need to build, arm and maintain an army in the "paradise" they were living in? An army - against whom?  

What do you think of all that?


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## Niniel (Aug 14, 2003)

I think that the armies of the Valar consisted of the 'lesser spirits' such as the Súruli and the Mánir (BOLT 1). They are not actually mentioned in the Sil, but I think the concept of there being many spirits besides the Valar was never abandoned by JRRT. As for the reason to have an army, I think the Valar knew that Melkor was going to be trouble, even before there was an actual cocflict, and that they would need an army to fight him.


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## Lhunithiliel (Aug 14, 2003)

I know quite a lot of these entered Arda together with Makar and Mease and filled the Halls of these two Valar... Yet, I just can't imagine them to be enough as to form armies!  
As for the other spirits, they, as were described in the books, dedicated themselves to the main "subject of activity"  of their Master/ Mistress resp. - It depended which Vala they accompanied. 
And if I can imagine those spirits that came with Orome to be able to march on war, I can't imagine those of ...Yavana for ex. doig this! 

Besides, even the BOLT1 - the considered earliest source of Tolkien mythology, does not give much detail from which a reader could find out the answer to my question.

I wonder whether there is sth. more said or at least hinted in the last HoME-volumes or the Letters...  (I still haven't read all of them  )


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## Lhunithiliel (Aug 15, 2003)

Ah!
Where are now Maerbenn and Herendil?!


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## Aulë (Aug 15, 2003)

> _From www.dictionary.com_
> ar·my ( P ) (ärm)
> n. pl. ar·mies
> 
> ...



Going by Def. 1, there would of had to have been a large amount of soldiers in the host.
Although, I had always thought that the Valar's army consisted of only a few, but very powerful warriors (incl. the Valar). Warriors like Tulkas and Oromë would have been a force to reckon with, and I don't doubt that Manwë, Aulë and Ulmo would have been present during these battles.
And let us not forget the Eagles of Manwë...



> _Originally posted by Lhunithiliel_
> even at their very first fight against Melkor they already had an impressive army!


One also wonders what Melkor's armies consisted of...
Valaraukar, for sure. And other Maia such as Sauron of course.
But is that all?
Orcs weren't about at that stage, neither were there Men, Trolls or Dragons...

Surely there would have been more 'good' Maia than corrupted ones, so by going with just the Maia, we could say that the Valar would have the superior army.


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## Confusticated (Aug 15, 2003)

At the point when the Valar decide to rid Middle-earth of Morgoth after the coming of the elves, I would think the servants of Melkor were not only currupted sprits that had taken to him but also great beasts, the 'monsters and shapes of dread' that were in the world at that time. But about the currupted spirits... later we don't hear of many of Melkor's Maiar. We hear of few balrogs, Sauron, the chance of some orcs being Maiar, but not much else. I think one could suppose that many Maiar who he had won over in the the earliest day and who had escaped during the first battles with the Valar, or who were drawn to Melkor after that time, were here defeated. This would explain why we don't here about many evil Maiar. 

But because Melkor had won 'many' rather than 'most' Maiar to him, if we assume they were hundreds or thousands (and we easily do so if we go with the idea that most evil Maiar were defeated in the battles with the Valar), then we can assume that there was more than that many who stayed on the side of the Valar.

As for why they had an army... I imagine that as soon as there was need for an army, the Valar and Maiar would just become one. A group of people go off to fight - they become an army.


This is really all speculation of course, but for me it goes a ways to explain some things.


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## Lhunithiliel (Aug 15, 2003)

So...Maia.... 
That could be of course, yet I remember how it was described when the Valar entered the airs of Arda ... So, I think, if the other spirits that accompnaied them also entered the new world in the same way, it could have almost destroyed the atmosphere of the new planet...(That is if Arda is taken to be a _planet_ and not the whole planetary system.) Because to form an *army* (to fit all three definitions Aule provided) they must have been quite a number!

The other possibility I can think of is that the Valar's army was not too numerous and there was not too many combats, as we see later when Elves and Men join, but rather some sort of a fight involving the _magical_ capabilities of these spirits. _Magic_ vs. _magic_...  

Could it be?

Melkor did have monsters. One could recall the BOLT-description of the tale about the Chaining of Melkor and all were there... Even in the Silmarillion we find descriptions of the the wild beasts - products of Melkor, that invaded ME when the other Valar lived in the false bliss of their realm.... Yeah! Beasts and spirits he had! And they were evil and malicious and strong... Just like their Master and creator! 
In other words - *perfect* warriors!

On the other hand - we have Tulkas (alone! he entered Arda *alone*); Orome - he might have had a couple of hundreds of "wild" spirits on his side ready to take arms; Makar and Measse - perhaps the "providers" of most of the warriors for the Valar's army, though reluctantly...
Who else?
I don't suppose Lorien and his Maia were very eager to go to war.
Ulmo?  He surely had "forces" but he seems to have never thrown them into a war.

Manwe.... Yes! His eagles might have been a very impressive military force.... Did he have land-forces as well? Perhaps...

What I'm trying to figure out is the scope and the size of the Gods' army before the Elves. 

And what weapons, do you think, they might have had?

I suppose such as to kill Melkor's monsters, because to kill a Maia or a Vala was impossible, right?


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## Confusticated (Aug 15, 2003)

One thing I notice about BoLT, is that everything regarding the Valar and their activites is described so much more tangable. Makes me wonder if Tolkien's ideas about their interactions with the physical world changed.

I think any battles between the Valar might have been some strange mixture of physical and spiritual. I think it could have been spiritual at times because the Valar were more limited when arrayed, they could probably not travel as fast for example to chase or run away in fear. Also, you can't really attack a spirit can you? So a Vala or Maia in danger could just slip out of bodily form, but even if a Vala's bodily form were damaged, this should effect him little, right? Their bodies are as clothing is to us... nay not even that, they are as clothing would be to someone who rarely wears it. They would be perfectly comfortable without it.

But for example: How were they able to chain Melkor? Shouldn't he have slipped out of his 'ramient' and fled away?

But could it possibly be that during times of battle the Valar were somehow unable to drop their raiment?

I really have a hard time understanding how a Vala could fight with a Vala otherwise. In truth I try no to think about it too much because I don't think there is any real answer.

And I just can't imagine they could battle without their raiment. I can't see how a spirit could harm another. Spirits can not be destroyed, so why wounded?

But being incarnates, I guess there is just aspects of their nature that we can't understand. So I am not saying that battle between them is not possible, or that I can't believe it could really happen... I just don't know how.

Edit: I almost forgot! Several months ago I thought for awhile that the Valar were somehow able to dominate Melkor on a spiritual level which allowed for them to be able to keep him in form in chains, but I have since read too much to believe that would have done so. It is a thing that seems to be no different than forcing someone against their will. This they were not allowed to do with the Children, but could they with eachother? I do not think so because one reason Manwe and them would have been doing bad in forcing someone against their will is that it is a road to evil. On the other hand, there are cases where the Valar did force someone against their will. Melkor's being shut in Mandos for three ages is such a thing. So there obviously comes a point when it is just to do so... but who is to say when this is just and what kind of reason must they have? And is sticking Melkor in prison for three ages similar enough to controlling him to such an extent that he was unable to slip out of his form? I do not think so... this latter seems to be more of a fundamental hijacking of someone's will than the former... if that makes any sense? But even so... if they could keep him against his will they maybe they could have somehow been willing to (assuming they are even capable of this) force him to stay in bodily form when in battle (because Melkor the coward must have tried to flee at some point ) and when chained.


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## Beleg (Aug 15, 2003)

After reading your post, I feel there are a lot of things that Master Tolkien left untouched. For example the spirtuality of the Valar hasn't really been defined. 
But on a more physical scale, I have always believed that Each Vala had his own house, of Maia, so they could be taken as the Valarian army. 

As for the weapons, since Morgoth had a physical weapon, Grond, it is also plausible that other Valar and their hosts had physical weaponary such as swords, sheilds, etc.


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## BlackCaptain (Aug 16, 2003)

Also, remember that all of these Elves were living and reproducing without having anyone die. Surely after all those years they would have a pretty good store of Vanyar, Teleri, and faithful Noldor, no?


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## Lhunithiliel (Aug 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by BlackCaptain _
> *Also, remember that all of these Elves were living and reproducing without having anyone die. Surely after all those years they would have a pretty good store of Vanyar, Teleri, and faithful Noldor, no? *


Well.....Yes...

But then the Elves were reborn in their children...

And I still can't find out sth. At the awakening the Elves were already quite a number! Once Master Grond had told me the exact number but I forgot it  
Anyway... if we now leave in peace the armies of "spirits" and speak about armies built out of Elven force mainly, then a few questions :

1/ How come that Elves reached such a number (enough to provide warriors for the Valar's armies), taking into consideration that it is said that this number did not increase nor decrease because they were reborn in their children...

2/ Wasn't it _mean_ enough on behalf of the Gods to use Elves for the main body of their armies? 

I understand that the cause of the great wars in the First Age (and further on) was to free ME for the Children... 
Since the Noldor had returned to the Great Lands, and the Noldor were quite a clan!.... and taking into consideration that Manwe had recognized his mistake to have let the Elves live in Aman, now it becomes obvious that ME was meant to be the home for the Children of _both_ races. It seems *these* were Eru's intentions...... So... for the Elves to go to a war against the evil powers was self-explanatory. And for Men too! 
Yet...One reads about all those battles and witnesses the massive destruction of Elves and Men on the battlefields ..... and wonders...... Was *that* the right thing to do? 
Was the death of so many a valiant Elven and Human warriors and great personalities necessary? For what?!? To pay for the bitter mistakes of the Gods?!?

As that above was deviation from the main topic of this thread, I'll return now with a sub-question:

Do we know where the weapons for these large armies were made?
For Morgoth's/ Sauron's armies - it is said.
Do we have such an information about the armies of the "good"?
Or have I just forgotten it?


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## Confusticated (Aug 17, 2003)

It is said the first elves numbered 144. This is in HoME XI, WoTJ.

Also, the idea of elves being reborn in their children was dropped in favour of rehousing. That is, the elves were restored into a body just like their former one and not reborn as babies. That is found in Morgoth's Ring. Check _The Converse of Manwe and Eru_ in Morgoth's Ring to read about it.


Their numbers did increase, well that is clear since there ended up being a lot more than 144, but it is actually said at least once in the Silmarillion that the elves "increased". Where does it say that they do not?



> Do we know where the weapons for these large armies were made?
> For Morgoth's/ Sauron's armies - it is said.
> Do we have such an information about the armies of the "good"?



Well I aside from the Noldor, I suppose Aule also had places for forging and here weapons could be made. The Noldor may have been, in general, the only elves in Aman into metal craft but some remained after the rebellion and there must also have been Maiar who took part in the craft too, especially those of Aule.


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## Inderjit S (Aug 17, 2003)

> Well I aside from the Noldor, I suppose Aule also had places for forging and here weapons could be made. The Noldor may have been, in general, the only elves in Aman into metal craft but some remained after the rebellion and there must also have been Maiar who took part in the craft too, especially those of Aule



Note, when the Noldor began to man the Telerin ships, 'swards were drawn' implying some of the Teleri had swords, but the main part of a Teleri army would consist of archers, though remember the Teleri just manned the ships to M-E, they never took part in the fighting.


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## Confusticated (Aug 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Inderjit S _
> *Note, when the Noldor began to man the Telerin ships, 'swards were drawn' implying some of the Teleri had swords, but the main part of a Teleri army would consist of archers, though remember the Teleri just manned the ships to M-E, they never took part in the fighting. *



While to me, 'swords were drawn' does not seem to imply the Teleri, it does say they were lightly armed with bows 'for the most part', and this does show they probably had a few swords (unless they had spears with fish bones instead? ). It is no wonder considering the Noldor were generous with the works of their craft... hehe! Not sure if you were implying that some Teleri were metal-workers, or just noting that some had swords?


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## Inderjit S (Aug 17, 2003)

> While to me, 'swords were drawn' does not seem to imply the Teleri



I think it shows that they were drawn on both sides, hence the fighting on the piers on Alqualonde. The Teleri were closely assoiated with the Noldor and there were some intermarriages between the two, one can conclude that there was *some* metal-working amongst the Teleri, their had to have been some Teleri who were intrested in metal work, or maybe the Noldor gave them swords as a sign of alliegence, remember, swords had only been around when Melkor's lies started spreading and there was strife or disharmony between diffrent Noldorin houses, though, no doubt the Teleri stayed wholly away from this, this doesn't rule out the giving of swords as gifts to the Teleri or of them making swords themselves.


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## Maerbenn (Aug 17, 2003)

*Metal-working among the Teleri*

In late writing (1968 or later) Tolkien says:


> … It [Telperimpar] was a frequent name among the Teleri, who in addition to navigation and ship-building were also *renowned as silver-smiths*. The famous Celebrimbor, heroic defender of Eregion in the Second Age war against Sauron, was a Teler, one of the three Teleri who accompanied Celeborn into exile. He was *a great silver-smith*, and went to Eregion attracted by the rumours of the marvellous metal found in Moria, Moria-silver, to which he gave the name _mithril_.


 (Quote taken from HoMe XII: _The Peoples of Middle-earth_; 'Of Dwarves and Men'). 

However; the canonicity of at least the second sentence can be debated.


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## Lhunithiliel (Aug 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Nóm _
> It is said the first elves numbered 144. This is in HoME XI, WoTJ.


 Yes...That was it! 
Hey, Nom, I see you have gone too much ahead of me!   I shall have to catch up with you! 



> Also, the idea of elves being reborn in their children was dropped in favour of rehousing. That is, the elves were restored into a body just like their former one and not reborn as babies. That is found in Morgoth's Ring. Check _The Converse of Manwe and Eru_ in Morgoth's Ring to read about it.
> 
> Their numbers did increase, well that is clear since there ended up being a lot more than 144, but it is actually said at least once in the Silmarillion that the elves "increased". Where does it say that they do not?


Even so, it does not explain the increase in numbers!
I'm thinking of opening a thread about that.



> Well I aside from the Noldor, I suppose Aule also had places for forging and here weapons could be made. The Noldor may have been, in general, the only elves in Aman into metal craft but some remained after the rebellion and there must also have been Maiar who took part in the craft too, especially those of Aule.


In Valinor... yes. It must have been Aule, but also Makar and Measse, who probably made the first weapons in Arda. Then the Elves (esp. the Noldor) too k and developed that craft.
The question stays however - *WHY*? 

I believe the first weapons were made for hunting (for Orome and his "huntsmen") and for satisfying the need in weapons for the war-games at the halls of M & M.

Silver, you say, Maerbenn 
But isn't it good enough to simply adorn? For reliable weapons they must have used more solid metals, I guess.
Mithril - were there weapons made from it?


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## Confusticated (Aug 25, 2003)

> Even so, it does not explain the increase in numbers!


Well why shouldn't they increase, especially in Aman? None of them were dying and it was bliss. They were still a young race, new come to Valinor. Most elves get married, and after elves marry they have children, so they would increase.

As for the time at Cuivienen... I just assume that Melkor took relatively very few of them.

Well Inderjit already pointed out Melkor's influence over the Noldor in the making of weapons, but if you're asking why the Noldor were into metal-craft, I'd just say it must be because that is just the kind of the elves the Noldor were. I used to guess the elves were probably orginally very much alike and grew to have different qualities out of circumstance and such... but recently read Quendi and Eldar, I learned that the clan from which most the Noldor came showed more technical and intellectual skill than the others from the very early days. Also, the Teleri were always the great singers. And I guess the Vanyar were always pretty? 

As for me going too far ahead... don't be fooled. I haven't even read all of UT... only Tour and Turin stories. 

But yes, you're over-due for reading Morgoth's Ring... some stuff in there I think you'd like a lot... stuff in PoME too... if you haven't read that yet? And I see you've read BoLT... so get on to the Sketch and Qenta in HoME IV


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## Lhunithiliel (Aug 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Nóm _
> *Well why shouldn't they increase, especially in Aman? None of them were dying and it was bliss. They were still a young race, new come to Valinor. Most elves get married, and after elves marry they have children, so they would increase.*


*
But they were reborn in their children! New children = new hroar >> Where to take new fear from? 





But yes, you're over-due for reading Morgoth's Ring... some stuff in there I think you'd like a lot... stuff in PoME too... if you haven't read that yet? And I see you've read BoLT... so get on to the Sketch and Qenta in HoME IV 

Click to expand...

*Sure!  I will ! I have read pieces..but ...winter is coming!


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## Confusticated (Aug 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lhunithiliel _
> *But they were reborn in their children! New children = new hroar >> Where to take new fear from?
> *



The fear come from Iluvatar. 

But I am curious: if you think all baby elves have the fea of a former elf, and believe there were originaly 144 elves, then how did Turgon take 10,000 to Nirnaeth!?


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## Lhunithiliel (Aug 25, 2003)

Exactly my question, Nom! 

Besides.... Do you think Iluvatar went on creating new souls for Arda?


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## Confusticated (Aug 25, 2003)

I'll try to find a something to quote which states that fear come from Iluvatar... right off hand I can only recall where to find statements that the Eldar believe it. 

But anyhow, if Iluvatar didn't put fear into Arda after the initial awakening of the children, what about men? We know they leave Arda and so are not reborn or rehoused, yet they increase. So its clear new fear come into Arda.

Also, the fact that the elves increased means that new fear showed up somehow or another.


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## Lhunithiliel (Aug 26, 2003)

Say, Nom, out of the last few posts there seems a new interesting topic has been born, which is a bit different from the subject of the present thread. So, I'll open a new thread where we and everybody who'd like to join, can discuss this subject. OK? 
Find it here


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## Nautilus (Sep 14, 2003)

*Elvish Reproduction*

Here's an interesting article by Michael Martinez about the Awakening of the Elves and their subsequent increase in numbers:

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/54681 

As it's pretty long, I'll quote the most relevant part:



> One way to estimate the Elven populations would be to assume that the Elves married and bore their first children about the time that their parents were having a second (or third, or fourth) child. Hence, by staggering the count of Elves per generation, one comes up with a smaller number which still amounts to thousands.
> 
> For example, there were 72 couples among the First Elves. Each couple would produce one child. We'll assume an even distribution of males and females. Hence, fifty years later, the 72 parental couples and their 72 children (comprising 36 second-generation couples) would produce 108 new children (72 second-generation children and 36 third-generation children).
> 
> ...



The last paragraph is pretty strikingly reminding of another event in modern history - when "a couple million" of another people vanished..


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