# Diors Sons



## ¤-Elessar-¤ (Jun 26, 2002)

I don't know if this has been discussed, and is the storyline of a most favorable forum RP, but what do you think happened to Elured and Elurin, the two sons of Dior and Nimloth.


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## ¤-Elessar-¤ (Jun 27, 2002)

But their fate was uncertain. Maedhros went out in search of them, and found nothing, which means that they probably did not perish in the woods. I was wondering wether or not anyone had any theories as to what happened.


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## Ithrynluin (Jun 27, 2002)

Maybe they drowned when Beleriand sank beneath the waves 
Poor lads!
I'd prefer a happier theory though!


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## chrysophalax (Jun 27, 2002)

Smeagol, I'm not sure to what index you refer, unless it be where Dior's sons are mentioned in the Index of Names. There it says that they perished, however there is a clear discrepancy here, for in "Of The Ruin Of Doriath" last paragraph, it says "...and of the fate of Elured and Elurin no tale tells."

The RPG "Redemption" to which Elessar refers (my thanks for the plug btw)! is based on the premise that they indeed survived and we will attempt to explain how during the course of the adventure. I invite you to tag along!


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## chrysophalax (Jun 27, 2002)

Well, until such time as the eminent Mr. Tolkien sheds more light on the subject, my hope in their survival stands.


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## Maedhros (Jun 27, 2002)

> There fell Celegorm by Dior's hand, and there fell Curufin, and dark Caranthir; but Dior was slain also, and Nimloth his wife, and the cruel servants of Celegorm seized his young sons and left them to starve in the forest. Of this Maedhros indeed repented, and sought for them long in the woods of Doriath; but his search was unavailing, and of the fate of Eluréd and Elurín no tale tells.


From this quote of the Sil, i infer that the fate of the sons of Dior is uncertain.
It's true that in the appendix of the names it tells that they perished, yet i will put more weight at what's in the book that what is in the appendices.


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## Maedhros (Jun 28, 2002)

> we do not know if there is in fact not any comment or footnote from JRR that would give an account of the boys' end. But of course CT would have known that when he compiled the names index.


There could be also, contradiction versions, and in this way he accounted for both. I'm not sure either that if in the Home books this mattered is addressed.
I will need to ask Grond about this.


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## Cian (Jun 28, 2002)

Two examples from "The War Of The Jewels": the first a section from "The Tale Of Years" (editing for brevity occurs, marked by ...):



> 506-507 ...The cruel servants of Celegorn seize Dior's sons (Elrún and Eldún) and leave them to starve in the forest. (Nothing certain is known of their fate, but some say that the birds succoured them, and led them to Ossir.) [_in margin:_ Maidros repenting seeks unavailingly for the children of Dior.] ..."



The second from CT's commentary on a genealogical table:



> "... and his young sons Eldún and Elrún were taken and abandoned to starve in the forest, see _The Tale of Years._ pp. 345 ff.; it is plainly a mere inadvertence that in the same table the date of their death is given at 506, five years before that of Dior. In (later) sources Eldún and Elrún are twin brothers, born in the year 500 (see p. 257 and note 16 on p. 300; p. 349).



Page 257 is from "The Wanderings Of Húrin" in which: _500 ~ "Elrún and Eldún twin sons of Dior born."_

I apologize for not, at the moment, adding textual dates and a fuller perspective regarding this in HoMe. But I have to go to work  and I type slow ~ these are interesting (I think) in any case. Maybe Grond or anyone can add stuff.


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## ¤-Elessar-¤ (Jul 8, 2002)

Perhaps...

What does it refer to when the quote mentions 'ossir', I am unfammiliar with the names that come from HoME.


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## Turgon (Jul 8, 2002)

Ossir is Ossirand, The Land of Seven Rivers. South of Thargelion and east of Taur-im-Duinath.


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## Ancalagon (Jul 9, 2002)

I have to agree with Maedhros on this matter; what is added later by Christopher is usually only reference to the scribblings of his Father as he tries to develop both characters and storyline. I also have all the copies of HOME , however, I always find that what is actually included in the Silmarillion was as much JRRs finished article as we can expect. 

As for what became of Eluréd and Elurín, who can truly say, for the Sil is clear when it states that no tale tells of them, for the simple fact it is unknown. Another fact is that age does not play a part in this, for the two were caught between a rock and a hard place either way. 

One possiblity is that they could have been among the many captured by Morgoths servants;



> Then the Captain of Morgoth sent out riders with tokens of parley. And they rode up before the outworks of the Barad Eithel. With them they brought Gelmir son of Guilin, that lord of Nargothrond whom they had captured in the Bragollach; and they had blinded him. Then the heralds of Angband showed him forth, crying; 'We have many more such at home, but you must make haste if you would find them; for we shall deal with them all when we return even so.' And they hewed off Gelmir's hands and feet, and his head last, within sight of the Elves, and left him.



It is clear that Morgoth captured and kept alive many Elves at this time. His preferred method was to use their skills rather than kill them;



> For few of the Noldor whom Morgoth captured were put to death, because of their skill in forging and in mining for metals and gems; and Gwindor was not slain, but put to labour in the mines of the North.



However it is also possible that the two were driven out into the woods by the servants of Celegorm and simply murdered. This is a likely scenario as the Sons of Feanor had already vowed to destroy all those of Thingols people if they did not give up the Silmaril. The Silmaril is not actually relevant though, because the fact that they had already carried out a second kinslaying meant that the likelihood of the disposal of Eluréd and Elurín would be nearer the mark. Why would anyone return from the woods and admit to actually killing two young Elvish children?

Sadly I do not think the fate of these unhappy two were such that they succoured by the beasts of the forest. I fear that their fate was probably swift and unpleasant.


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## Walter (Jul 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ancalagon _
> I have to agree with Maedhros on this matter; what is added later by Christopher is usually only reference to the scribblings of his Father as he tries to develop both characters and storyline. I also have all the copies of HOME , however, I always find that what is actually included in the Silmarillion was as much JRRs finished article as we can expect.


Well of course, I mean, what else can you expect? 


Actually, after Cian's post I tried checking the HoME for more traces and I found a few more references, but nothing significant at all...


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## Ardamir the Blessed (Feb 19, 2004)

PM, 'The Problem of _ros_'


> Eluréd and Elurín, before they came to manhood, *were both slain by the sons of Fëanor*


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