# Dol Guldor



## grendel (Dec 19, 2020)

Not sure where to post this, but this seems as good a place as any...

So is there anything in HoME or the other ancillary texts about what Dol Guldor was originally? Or did Sauron build it himself? Just curious.


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## Alcuin (Dec 19, 2020)

According to “The Disaster of the Gladden Fields” in _Unfinished Tales_, the fortress on Amon Lanc, “Bald Hill” (cf. Mussorgsky’s “Night on Bald Mountain”), was originally constructed in the Second Age by the Elves of Mirkwood as the seat of Thranduil’s father Oropher, who died in the War of the Last Alliance; but before then end of the Second Age, it was abandoned and Oropher moved north to the Mountains of Mirkwood. Sauron moved there before III 1100, when Appendix B says the Wise discovered an evil power there, which they mistook for “merely” a Nazgûl, probably Khamûl, who was commander of Dol Guldur. 

Amon Lanc was across the Anduin from Lórien, and was the highest point in that part of the forest, offering a wide view of the lands about, a strategic advantage. Oropher moved northwards either to get further from Sauron in Mordor, or to distance himself from the Dwarves of Khazad-dûm and his kinsman Celeborn in Lórien, or perhaps for both reasons.


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## Olorgando (Dec 20, 2020)

Alcuin said:


> According to “The Disaster of the Gladden Fields” in _Unfinished Tales_, the fortress on Amon Lanc, “Bald Hill” ... was originally constructed in the Second Age by the Elves of Mirkwood as the seat of Thranduil’s father Oropher, ...


Finally my fresh hardcover 40th anniversary edition of UT springs into action ... 

I have just read all of “The Disaster of the Gladden Fields” and its 33 end-notes, plus a cross-reference to the immediately preceding "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn." I can find "historical" references to "Amon Lanc" and "Dol Guldur" only in two end-notes:

No. 12: "... In later days [Amon Lanc] was Dol Guldur, the first stronghold of Sauron after his awakening. [Author's note.]"

No. 14: "Long before the War of the Alliance, Oropher, king of the Silvan Elves east of Anduin, being disturbed by rumours of the rising power of Sauron, had left _their ancient dwellings *about* Amon Lanc_, across the river from their kin in Lórien."

This does not sound like fortress-building to me. Besides which, of all Elves besides probably the Avari, Silvan Elves were the least likely to go in for such "architecture". Thingol's Elves were all Teleri, only later to be referred to as Sindar, and they had some serious help by Dwarves in delving Menegroth. Finrod counted among his subjects a hefty contingent of Noldor (what help he had from Dwarves in delving Nargothrond remains unclear to me - hey, I need to allow Alcuin some leeway for his posts!  aka I'm just too lazy, perhaps for good reasons, to dig in deeply here). Thranduil's digs in The Hobbit are a very pale copy of those First Age templates.

That said, I also have some thought nagging far in the background that Dol Guldur was not founded by Sauron.
Though by now I have the horrifying suspicion that it may be something PJ fabricated for his TH fanfic ... 🤢


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## Alcuin (Dec 20, 2020)

Gimli once reminded Legolas that Thranduil’s folk also had the assistance of the Dwarves when they delved his father’s halls in Mirkwood, too. Oropher and Thranduil were not themselves Silvan Elves, but of a noble house of the Sindar of Doriath. These came among the Silvan Elves and were taken by them to be their lords. Moreover, Oropher and Thranduil were kinsmen of Celeborn, and, if one telling of Celeborn’s origins are to be believed, he was the nephew of Elu Thingol and Olwë of Alqualondë. (That would make Galadriel his first cousin once removed.) 

But Gimli’s folk were the people of Durin, the Longbeards. Those who helped delve Menegroth would have been Dwarves of the Blue Mountains, the folk of Belegost or Nogrod, the Firebeards and Broadbeams. Thingol was murdered in Menegroth by the smiths of Nogrod, who coveted the Silmaril, leading to the deep distrust and dislike between Elves and Dwarves. 

I think Círdan had the Falathrim build walls in the Age of Stars around their havens of Brithombar and Eglarest, but after the arrival of the Noldor, Círdan and Finrod became allies, and the Noldor rebuilt the havens from stone. I don’t know what to make of the original havens: perhaps they were constructions of wood alone, as are many boat and ship docks today. 

At any rate, Oropher was neither Silvan nor naïve: it is unlikely, in my opinion, that he would not have built a stone tower and keep, much as he had seen the Noldor build in Beleriand. Like you, Olorgando, I have the sense that Khamûl did not construct the fortress of Dol Guldur, but rather occupied it and perhaps expanded and strengthened it; but those are only opinions. I don’t recall reading that Sauron _built_ or had built Dol Guldur; but I could be wrong, and welcome any correction and citations!


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## Olorgando (Dec 21, 2020)

Alcuin said:


> At any rate, Oropher was neither Silvan nor naïve: it is unlikely, in my opinion, that he would not have built a stone tower and keep, much as he had seen the Noldor build in Beleriand.


Galadriel was one quarter Noldo (also one quarter Vanya, and half Telerin, in each case from the respective royal houses). She certainly was familiar with all (or at least most) of the fortifications built by Elves in the First Age (the one very likely exception being Gondolin). And yet even at the end of the Third Age, there were no stone fortifications in Lothlórien. The subjects (at least the vast majority) of both Galadriel and Celeborn and on the other hand Oropher were Silvan Elves. So my feeling is that while Oropher might have fortified Amon Lanc (there is no explicit mention of this known to me), it would have resembled Caras Galadhon in Lothlórien more than anything else.


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## Elthir (Dec 21, 2020)

All you need is Elvish eyes atop Amon Lanc 

In my imagination the bad guys built Dol Guldur, with the Wise (and the Otherwise) finding out that an *"evil power has made a stronghold at Dol Guldur"* c. 1150 Third Age (Appendix B)

In both "Oropher scenarios" Oropher left Amon Lanc before the end of the Second Age, way way before the Shadow fell on Greenwood, and about the Galadhrim at least, Legolas says (chapter Lothlorien) that the people of the woods ". . . *did not delve in the ground like Dwarves, nor build strong places of stone before the Shadow came."*

Of Oropher and his handful of Sindar, a late text in _Unfinished Tales_ notes that: *"They wished indeed to become Silvan folk and to return, as they said, to the simple life natural to the Elves before the invitation of the Valar had disturbed it."*

I know that none of this _necessarily_ says that Oropher did not build a fortress of stone atop Amon Lanc (if we consider an evil power "making" a stronghold means making it with part of something already being there),* but so far* . . . 

. . . I cant recall/find anything that says he did build a fortress there, including in the _Disaster of the Gladden Fields,_ note 14.

In note 14 Oropher is said to have moved northward three times before the Last Alliance, and in Appendix B to _The History of Galadriel and Celeborn_, after the Shadow fell on Greenwood Thranduil again retreated northward, until at last he delved underground, following the example of Thingol.

I mean, if you keep moving north, it's going to get cold! Anyway, my impression is that delving into the earth slash stone was kind of a "last resort" for these Elves, and that they had left Amon Lanc "bald" long ago.


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## Alcuin (Dec 21, 2020)

Elthir said:


> In my imagination the bad guys built Dol Guldur, with the Wise (and the Otherwise) finding out that an *"evil power has made a stronghold at Dol Guldur"* c. 1150 Third Age (Appendix B)
> 
> … Legolas says (chapter Lothlorien) that the people of the woods ". . . *did not delve in the ground like Dwarves, nor build strong places of stone before the Shadow came."*


Fair enough. I don’t know that I altogether agree with Elthir and Ologandro, but this seems the stronger argument. My impression remains that Dol Guldur was a structure Sauron’s Nazgûl took and “improved” for their purposes, but that does not mean I’m right. I will try to rethink (and reïmagine) my view of the origins of Dol Guldur.


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## Olorgando (Dec 21, 2020)

One fact we might speculate about: what led to the treelessness (at the top only?) of this hill so that it was called called Amon Lanc, "Naked Hill"? It certainly can't have been because of altitude, as it is called a hill, not a mountain, and is a puny little lump compared to the Misty Mountains. Any peak in the middle mountains of Germany, which can reach to just under 1,500 meters or just under 5,000 feet, which is treeless is so because of human actions, not naturally so.

Now botanists could probably come up with reasons that some place might be inhospitable to trees, perhaps especially an elevation. But a place surrounded by a huge forest? Just think how difficult it has been to find Maya ruins, even really big ones, in the (admittedly more tropical) forests of Mesoamerica after just a few centuries. Forests have a habit of proliferating rampantly. So when did Oropher decide to lead his people north from _their ancient dwellings *about* Amon Lanc_?

End-note No. 14: "Long before the War of the Alliance, Oropher, king of the Silvan Elves east of Anduin, being disturbed by rumours of the rising power of Sauron ..."; meaning Sauron's power had become a thing to fear. When could that have been?

Appendix B in RoTK, The Tale of Years for the Second Age:
1200
Sauron endeavors to seduce the Eldar. ... but the smiths of Eregion are won over. ...
c. 1500
The Elven-smiths instructed by Sauron reach the height of their skill. They begin the forging of the Rings of Power.
c. 1590
The Three Rings are completed in Eregion.
c. 1600
Sauron forges the One Ring in Orodruin. He completes the Barad-dûr. Celebrimbor perceives the designs of Sauron.
1693
War of the Elves and Sauron begins. The Three Rings are hidden.
...
1701
Sauron is driven out of Eriador. The Westlands have peace for a long time.
...
2251
... About this time the Nazgûl or Ringwraiths, slaves of the Nine Rings, first appear.

Now I would hypothesize that at least between 1200 and 1600 SA Sauron, still tooling around in his fake guise of Annatar, would have refrained from doing anything alarming to his intended victims. While his disguise fell apart in 1693 at the latest, eight years later he had been decisively defeated and kicked out - of Eriador, west of the Misty Mountains. Southern Greenwood with Amon Lanc was decidedly east of them.

Now Sauron leading his forces against Eriador, through what was much later to become Rohan, was quite a bit south of Oropher's realm. I would think that he heard at least "rumor" of it; which, according to the wording of endnote 14 above might have been sufficient to have Oropher lead the first of the three northward relocations of his people. Which would make it roughly 1700 years before the War of the Last Alliance. "Long before" even by Elven standards. In our historical terms, this is equivalent to the time that separates us from Emperor Constantine's decisive battle for sole leadership of the Roman Empire, with that vision of the cross that led to his toleration of Christianity.

Even if one were to assume the first appearance of the Nazgûl in 2251 SA to be what convinced Oropher to relocate north, this would still be 1190 years before Sauron's fall at the end of the Second Age. Or about 30 years less than what separates us from Charlemagne's coronation as western Roman Emperor in the year 800 AD.

Well over a millennium before the Disaster of the Gladden Fields should have been plenty of time to reforest Amon Lanc, assuming no Eruhini interference with the natural process. Perhaps more to the point, if Oropher's hypothesized fortifications there had been, as they remained in Lothlórien for millennia later, made of wood, well over a millennium, or perhaps two until in Appendix B The Tale of Years for the Third Age notes for c. 1150 "an evil power has made a stronghold at Dol Guldur", no superficially visible remnants of such a fortification made from organic materials would remain.


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## Elthir (Dec 21, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> One fact we might speculate about: what led to the treelessness (at the top only?) of this hill so that it was called called Amon Lanc, "Naked Hill"?



Maybe lotsa stone? Haldir describes: *"upon a stony height stands Dol Guldur"

🐾 *


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## Olorgando (Dec 21, 2020)

Elthir said:


> Maybe lotsa stone? Haldir describes: *"upon a stony height stands Dol Guldur"
> 
> 🐾 *


Trees don't do it all by themselves. First (visible) settlers include lichens and mosses. And those invisible true true rulers of the planet, bacteria, eat practically everything (though even bacteria have issues with viruses ...). Then shrubs, bushes, then various trees.

And that bit about the Ents tearing up the stone ring of Isengard like we tear up soft bread can be viewed in time-lapse photography (filming?) in real life.
Nah, stones almost never stand a chance against plants (which is why road repairs are a never-ending story).


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## Elthir (Dec 21, 2020)

The power of plants acknowledged, unless I'm persuaded by some other theory (which I'm open to hearing of course), _so far anyway, _I think I need to imagine enough stone (thickness included) to do the job here (or help do the job), at least with respect to _*trees*_ on the top of Amon Lanc, perhaps like *Amon Rûdh.

🐾*


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## grendel (Dec 21, 2020)

Well. Olorgando, I'm glad you had a chance to break out your new treasure, and I can see there is no easy answer. The reason I was wondering is, we can see Sauron is capable of creating something new (be built Barad-Dur from scratch, seemingly) and not just take over someone else's work (Minas Ithil, f'instance). But why would he have done so that close to Lorien and Thranduil's realm? The timelines you guys are mentioning are interesting and I had not known of a lot of it. Thanks!


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## Olorgando (Dec 21, 2020)

grendel said:


> ... But why would he [Sauron] have done so that close to Lorien ...


That got me to thinking: why not go straight back to Mordor?
My hunch is that a stll powerful Gondor was keeping watch on it
Remember, both the tower of (later) Cirith Ungol as well as Carchosr and Narchust, the two towers flanking (later) the Black Gate into Mordor were originally built by Gondor to prevent entry into the Black Land. Though, with mo mountain barriers in the east of Mordor, I don't see why Sauron could not have re-entered from there.

But perhaps he wanted a less obtrusive place to recover his power and reassemble his bodily form, and a place in a thick forest, where nobody would have perhaps thought of looking for him, might have served him better.
With the "History of Galadriel and Celeborn", despite UT, not having reached anything like a widely accepted, at least semi-canonical form (least of all for Galadriel), the nearness to Lothlórien could at the beginning have been an accident, or not thought important. Sauron did not know what had happened to the Three Great Elven Rings, and without his own One Ring, had little chance of finding out more that in a very fragmentary way, if at all.

In one sense he started off with the right strategy, sending the Witch-king to Angmar to cause trouble, and more for the weaker northern Kingdom of the Dúnedain, while he himself lay low (and as yet unrecognized) in Dol Guldur. It took about 675 years to destroy the North Kingdom (or its last remnant). As Gandalf stated, also in UT, in the "Quest of Erebor", that he (Gandalf) thought that to attack Rivendell (with help from Smaug) and Lórien (perhaps with the help of the Moria Balrog) as soon as Sauron was (felt) strong enough to do so could have been Sauron's original plan, and the better one. Which is why Gandalf got "The Hobbit" going, so to speak, which ended up eliminating Smaug and re-establishing the Kingdom under The Mountain of the Dwarves and Dale. During the Quest of The Ring, Gandalf then eliminated the Balrog of Moria. So then Sauron, having had another millennium of preparation since the fall of the North Kingdom, prepared to move against Gondor. But, provoked by Aragorn's ripping the Orthanc Palantir from his control, sooner than was prudent for assured victory. And he had lost some options, having to attack a now hostile Dale / Erebor combination, and a Lórien against which only a "personal" attack might have been successful.

So, as in real life, some accidents, some which went one way, some the other. Some planning which worked out, some which didn't. As many clear sighted planners, especially in the so highly planned military, have found out, "no plan survives to first contact with the enemy intact." In non-military terms, the first contact with reality.


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## Matthew Bailey (Dec 22, 2020)

As others have pointed-out, Dol Guldur was originally a Númenórean Fortress/Town built upon the promontory of the Hill/Mount “Dol Guldur.”

And that the Númenóreans had abandoned it well into the 3rd Age (long before Sauron used it as a “base” to recover, due to it being so isolated (Both Lothlórien and Thranduil’s Northern Mirkwood Realms where then “isolated Faerie Kingdoms,” rather than the declining Human Kingdoms of the Third Age).

And given how the settlement and building of such Fortresses/Towers/Towns are accomplished, or even chosen, it is usually on the site of a pre-existing population. In the case of Dol Guldur that “Pre-existing population” was probably either “Men of the (Southernly) Vales of the Anduin/Northern Vales of the Anduin (relatives of the Beornings, Dalemen, and Rohirrim, via the “Northmen of Rhovanion”), _*OR*_ Orcs of some variety.

A caveat needs to be made about Sauron and Barad-dûr being constructed. Tolkien indeed states that “Morgoth/Sauron *cannot ”Create”* anything,” this does not mean they cannot “assemble” or “make,” which to Catholic/Early-Christian Theology was/is a _*HUGE* difference_.

Barad-dûr was thus _Made_ from the variety of previously existing substances that were then joined to create the final product.

This is a recurring theme in the _*HoM-e*_.

MB


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## Olorgando (Dec 22, 2020)

Matthew Bailey said:


> As others have pointed-out, Dol Guldur was originally a Númenórean Fortress/Town built upon the promontory of the Hill/Mount “Dol Guldur.”


I admit I have something very dim like that buzzing around in some subterranean parts of my memory.
But having checked every reference to Dol Guldur in my new, also bought this year, HoMe Index volume, and UT, and the Sil, I have not found any such reference. The only thing I found concerning Amon Lanc, where Dol Guldur was to be built, before the Third Age is that UT endnote 14 above about Oropher in the Second Age. Can you point us to where the Númenóreans are said by JRRT to have done any building on Amon Lanc / Dol Guldur?


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## grendel (Dec 22, 2020)

Matthew Bailey said:


> A caveat needs to be made about Sauron and Barad-dûr being constructed. Tolkien indeed states that “Morgoth/Sauron *cannot ”Create”* anything,” this does not mean they cannot “assemble” or “make,” which to Catholic/Early-Christian Theology was/is a _*HUGE* difference_.


You are correct; "build" was my intended meaning rather than "create". I do remember specifically that neither Melkor nor Sauron could "create" anything new that was not already part of the Music. Which is why there has been such contentious debate over the origin of the damned Orcs! (No, I do not want to start that debate again, it's just an example. Don't even go there!!)


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## Alcuin (Dec 23, 2020)

Matthew Bailey said:


> As others have pointed-out, Dol Guldur was originally a Númenórean Fortress/Town built upon the promontory of the Hill/Mount “Dol Guldur.”


I did not know this. Could you provide a citation or some direction on this? 



Matthew Bailey said:


> A caveat needs to be made about Sauron and Barad-dûr being constructed. Tolkien indeed states that “Morgoth/Sauron *cannot ”Create”* anything,” this does not mean they cannot “assemble” or “make,” which to Catholic/Early-Christian Theology was/is a _*HUGE* difference_.


There is a difference in Christian theology between _create_ and _make_, but the origin of that difference is rooted in Judaism and was incorporated into Christian (and thus Catholic) theology. בָּרָא, _bara_ is the Hebrew word for “create”. עָשָׂה, _asah_, means “make” or “do”. In the Tanakh (Old Testament), men and angels can “make” and “do”, and so can God, but only God alone can “create”. 

In _Return of the King_ in the chapter “Tower of Cirith Ungol”, Frodo and Sam discussed food and water after Sam acquired Orc garments for Frodo. When Sam wondered – facetiously or sardonically, perhaps – whether Orcs lived on foul air and poison, Frodo answered,
No, they eat and drink, Sam. The Shadow that bred them can only mock, it cannot make: not real new things of its own. I don’t think it gave life to the orcs, it only ruined them and twisted them; and if they are to live at all, they have to live like other living creatures. Foul waters and foul meats they’ll take, if they can get no better, but not poison.​I am uncertain where Frodo acquired this knowledge: in Rivendell or Lórien, perhaps, from Gandalf, from Aragorn or Boromir or Legolas, or perhaps from some insight provided him by his suffering or from the Ring: In _Two Towers_, “Choices of Master Samwise”, the narrator tells us that while Sam wore the Ring when the two groups of Orcs arrived from Cirith Ungol under Shagrat and Minas Morgul under Gorbag, 
He heard them both clearly, and he understood what they said. Perhaps the Ring gave understanding of tongues, or simply understanding, especially of the servants of Sauron its maker, so that if he gave heed, he understood and translated the thought to himself.​


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## Elthir (Jan 7, 2021)

Matthew, now that you're seemingly back for a bit, I too was wondering about your source here.

🐾


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