# Would Gollum have gone over the Sea?



## Beorn (Jun 10, 2002)

Would Gollum have gone over the Sea had he not died? Assuming he wasn't too crazy, would he be invited to leave because he was a ring-bearer, or was he too corrupted by Sauron's evil to be accepted? I would think that he would be able to be sanitized (made sane hehe) in Aman...


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## Walter (Jun 11, 2002)

An unpublished part of the books contains the following passage:



> They stood at the deck of the mighty ship, the seas were calm again and the most farsighted of the elves had already seen the mountains of the west. Galadriel had mentioned to Gandalf the other night that their journey would soon come to an end. Sam kept watching the waves. `I had a funny dream an hour or two before dawn, Mr. Frodo,' he said. `Or maybe it wasn't a dream. Funny it was anyway.'
> `Well, what was it? ' said Frodo, knowing that Sam would not settle down until he had told his tale, whatever it was. 'I haven't seen or thought of anything to make me smile since we left the Shire.'
> `It wasn't funny that way, Mr. Frodo. It was queer. All wrong, if it wasn't a dream. And you had best hear it. It was like this: I saw a log with eyes! '
> `The log's all right,' said Frodo. `There are some in the ocean. But leave out the eyes! '
> ...


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## Legolam (Jun 11, 2002)

Isn't that very like the passage where the Fellowship is on the Anduin and Gollum is following them?

I don't think that Gollum would have been allowed to go to Aman. He'd perpetrated too many crimes against the good guys.


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## Gamil Zirak (Jun 11, 2002)

Even if he was allowed to go, he wouldn't except. He hated everything about the elves and it burned him when their rope touched him.


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## Leto (Jun 11, 2002)

It was unpublished because Tolkien didn't write it...seems like someone wrote it up to suit their fancy  ...and didn't do a very good job of it, at that...since Sam doesn't go with Frodo and Gandalf and Galadriel.  I don't think Gollum would have gone to Aman. And wondering 'if he had survived' is like wondering 'what if Sauron had won'. It wasn't going to happen. *s*


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## Leto (Jun 11, 2002)

The Valar have great mercy. Smeagol would have been allowed to come, if he had reformed, and had helped destroy the Ring. Gandalf refused to give up on hoping that Gollum could be reformed, as did Frodo, right up until they were betrayed. Alas, Gollum was too twisted by the precious, so we will never know what might have been.


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## Rangerdave (Jun 11, 2002)

Even though Smeagol/Gollum bore the Ring for longer than anyone save the Dark Lord himself, I believe he would have been denied admitance to the Undying West.

Assuming that Gollum would have somehow survieved the destruction of the Ring, he is still guilty of murder. We know for a fact that he killed his Kinsman Deagol (sp?) and have the rumor of other slayings. Kinslaying is one of the worst imaginable crimes in Middle Earth. I believe that Smeagol would have suffered a judgement similiar to Feanor and his Sons.

Good question Beorn
RD


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## Camille (Jun 11, 2002)

I like to think that the powers of Arda are merciful enough to forgave smeagol, he could have been allowed to go to Aman an heal his tormented soul there, why not?
Let see the picture... mmm or maybe that could not be possible because I can not figure out some way in which gollum survived...?¡¿?  , lets think... Frodo was bitten, he wake up from his ring dream, takes his finger (uhg!!) from Gollum (terrible fight) and destroy the ring, the spell somehow dissapear, Sam came and tries to kill gollum (of course)Frodo stop him, he forgave him and they were rescued by the eagles... Gollum, now Smeagol will join the elves (lothlorien maybe) and there you go.. to Aman after all


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## Leto (Jun 11, 2002)

Camille *lol* right...you see how it couldn't be any way other than how it was written. I think it was long decided that gollum would serve the purpose he did. Just as the ring was meant to be found by Bilbo, and not by its maker. If we are to speculate about 'what ifs', we may as well speculate about 'what if everything in the world was different'...because even a tiny change has a huge effect on the whole thing.


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## YayGollum (Jun 11, 2002)

Yay Walter! I love that version!  Also, my theory on how Gollum could have lived: Okay, everybody knows that this story was written down by Frodo, right? So, Frodo lied. What really happened was that Gollum knocked Sam out (just like in the book), then bit the Ring off (just like in the book), then the Smeagol half finally got the better of Gollum and threw the Ring in, then ran away. After a long time, he makes it back out of Mordor (no help from the eagles). From there, I guess you could go with Walter's account. Yay for what if's!


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## Camille (Jun 11, 2002)

, sure Leto you are right!! a funny story, (mine not your Yay) somehow Gollum was meant to destroy the ring, because Tolkien wanted and that is the only story, other than that is speculation but... I do not my mind just refuses to think in a world without redemption just in case ..sorry my spelling ¿'?¿) all the book I was hoping the transformation of gollum, maybe I am a little Gollum fan club what do you think?


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## YayGollum (Jun 12, 2002)

Yes.


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## Theoden (Jun 13, 2002)

I have often thought about that and I believe that the conclusion I have come to is this: Gollum was so twisted by the ring that he was very evil. But had he been able to let it go, I believe he would have achieved the prize and been allowed to sail with Frodo and Bilbo... or later with Sam.


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## Beorn (Feb 9, 2003)

I'm just dragging this up to get some new opinions...


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 9, 2003)

Yes, Gandalf did say there was still hope for Gollum's rehabilitation, but it is unclear to me whether he meant that:

1. Gollum could still come to Aman, where he would be healed, if only he achieved some good deeds and help destroy the evil that is the Ring (which corrupted and malformed him and made him commit at least one murder)

OR

2. If Gollum aided the Fellowship (notably Frodo and Sam) in the destruction of the Ring, his spirit would slowly be healed. But the healing would have to take place in Middle Earth, by no means in Aman, because of the horrid crimes that he committed.

I lean more to option #1 - Sure Gollum committed murder (once, as far as we know), but he was tainted by a greater evil which cannot easily be resisted. If Gollum proved himself worthy in the end, I would have granted him admittance to Aman. But unfortunately the bonds of the ring were laid too heavy upon him.


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## BlackCaptain (Feb 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rangerdave _
> *Even though Smeagol/Gollum bore the Ring for longer than anyone save the Dark Lord himself, I believe he would have been denied admitance to the Undying West.
> 
> Assuming that Gollum would have somehow survieved the destruction of the Ring, he is still guilty of murder.*



Frodo 'murdured' orcs. so did sam. Bilbo 'murdered' spiders, and they have wills of thier own. just because he's a killer doesnt meen that he wont get admitted into Aman. Melkor killed thousands upon thousands, and the Valar let him go. Thats mercy for ya. One Stoor murdering another isnt going to ban you from Aman


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## FoolOfATook (Feb 10, 2003)

Frodo killed Orcs in battle, Semagol murdered Deagol in cold blood. There's a big difference. And, as has already been brought up, Gollum was guilty of a kinslaying, while Frodo wasn't.


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## BlackCaptain (Feb 10, 2003)

Melkor was guilty of mass mass murder. He was let loose by the Valar. Thats how great thier mercy is. The Ring drove Gollum mad. The Valar cant punish him for Sauron corupting him.


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## Turin (Feb 13, 2003)

Hey Walter were'd you get that quote?


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