# Gandalf the Grey and Gandalf the White



## shadowfax_g (Apr 24, 2002)

Do you think there was much diffrence in appearance between Gandalf the Grey and Gandalf the White except his cloths?

I am wondering why Aragorn and co. took such a long time to recognise him. They had some conversation for a while.. couldn't they recognise him after his voice?

Also, Gandalf seemed to have a bit of defect of memory first as he did not call them by names but just Master Elf, Master Dwarf and so on. Was he just playing riddles??


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## LadyGaladriel (Apr 24, 2002)

> I have forgotten most things I knew and have remembered some things I forgot


 (Basic)


hmmm. aragorn also says :-


> What veil was over my sight?



So im guessing that he put a spell over himself so he could see what they would do when they met him 




> "Well Met"


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## Gamil Zirak (Apr 24, 2002)

You also have to remember that they thought he was dead and didn't expect to run into him any time soon. He caught them off guard. Plus, I'm sure his appearance and wardrobe changed from grey to white.


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## Xanaphia (Apr 24, 2002)

I heard in another thread that Gandalf couldn't die. Wouldn't Aragorn have known that if he was such good friends with Gandalf for so long.


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## Elias (Apr 24, 2002)

I think that Gandalf can die. And I'm sure that Gandalf recognized them in the wood, but he was just playing with them.

You have to remember that they were pretty close to Isengard and they've just spoke about Saruman and if you can remember they saw other old man in the wood before they met Gandalf and Gandalf said that it wasn't him. Of course they thought that Gandalf was dead and with white clothes Gandalf was so different.

And if Gandalf can't die Aragorn would have known that.


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## Gamil Zirak (Apr 24, 2002)

Because he was a Maia, Gandalf's person would not die. However, his physical form could die (i.e. like Suaron).


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## LadyGaladriel (Apr 24, 2002)

> they thought he was dead



Yeah ! Thats also a very important factor


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## Lantarion (Apr 24, 2002)

I don't think even Aragorn knew for sure whether Gandalf could actually be killed or not. If the members of the Fellowship had thought he couldn't die then they wouldn't have wept and mourned for him. 
And first of all Gandalf was resurrected in a higher status of Maia, meaning that his knowledge, powers and mien were all greatly raised. They might have been naturally struck by awe at the presence of such a powerful (although unseen) power that came from the figure that was Gandalf. And they didn't recognize him at first because he had his grey robes aver him and his hood over his face. 
And as for the non-direct names (eg. 'Master Dwarf') I think he may have forgotten them for a while; but I think he wanted to hold up the suspense by not immeidately notifying them of his existence. 
A very interesting fact that I just thought of is that when Aragorn blurts out "Gandalf!" when he sees that the figure is him, Gandalf sighs and says something to the effect of "Yes, that was my name." I think he had been in the presence of both Manwë and Ilúvatar, who would have naturally called him Olórin, his true name (this can be contested, if one has read UT, but basically it was his 'true' name), wherefore he would have 'forgotten' his 'Northern' name of Gandalf, and maybe his Elvish name Mithrandir because his whole memory and mind had been swept clean for a while, when his powers were reinstated.


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## Gil-Galad (Apr 24, 2002)

The members of the fellowship didn't know about Gandalf immortality.If they knew,they wouldn't be so despair and sad.
I think Gandalf was white cause he had more power after killing the balrog and he was able to oppose Saruman.It's a kind of uniform I think.Who is wearing white is the strongest,then comes the grey,brown and blue.That's just a suggestion......


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## shadowfax_g (Apr 24, 2002)

I understood Aragorn and co. did not think of Gandalf at once because they were convinced he was dead.
But Gandalf's queer behaviour.. he seemed to be pretending to be Saruman, or at least to try looking ambiguous intentionally. Was he just playing? or he really had forgotten his friend's names??


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## Gamil Zirak (Apr 24, 2002)

You try falling down the pits of Moria with a Balrog. Then when you get to the bottom of your fall, you have to chase the Balrog all the way to the top of the mountain. Once your at the top, you have to fight the Balrog. You defeat the Balrog and through it off the top of the mountain, but (this goes along with my theory that you can't destroy a Maia without being destroyed yourself) your body dies in the process. Well today is your lucky day because you are brought back by the powers that be. So you sit around waiting for an Eagle to come along and take you to Lorien. Once your there you get a brief fill in on what happened to the felloship and then head on to the forest where your buddies are. I don't know about you guys but that can really do some damage to you mentally. Gandalf came back as a new person and had a temporary laps (and can you blame him). That's all that happened. No more. No less. Or that's what I think anyway.


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## Legolam (Apr 25, 2002)

When he was sent back by Iluvatar or Manwe or whatever, I suppose he got a completely new body. Maybe his face differed ever so slightly from Gandalf the Grey's, and this, along with thinking he was dead, was what threw Aragorn and the others?


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## Niniel (Apr 25, 2002)

In the preview for TTT he looked really different from Gandalf the Grey, so if he had changed that much I can imagine they would not recognize him. But he did really behave strange; like the old man that they saw before they met Gandalf: it is never explained who it was. Gandalf says it wasn't him, but why were the horses happy then? Were Gandalf and Saruman both there? Or were the horses happy because Shadowfax was there?


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## shadowfax_g (Apr 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Niniel _
> *In the preview for TTT he looked really different from Gandalf the Grey, so if he had changed that much I can imagine they would not recognize him. But he did really behave strange; like the old man that they saw before they met Gandalf: it is never explained who it was. Gandalf says it wasn't him, but why were the horses happy then? Were Gandalf and Saruman both there? Or were the horses happy because Shadowfax was there? *


If the old man was Gandalf with a new body but hadn't totally "recovered" then, it makes sense..
Yet I am not quite sure.


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## Barahir (Apr 27, 2002)

imho, I don't think that he got a 'new' body per se.

It states in the 'tale of years' that:

January 23: Gandalf pursues the Balrog to the peak or Zirakzigil
January 25: He casts down the Balrog, and passes away. His body lies on the peak.
February 14: The Mirror of Galadriel. Gandalf returns to life, and lies in a trance.

Therefore I think that it is indeed the same 'body', but Gandalf has obviously been grated the 'higher' powers/status as Pontifex stated.


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## shadowfax_g (Apr 27, 2002)

Thank you for posting your first post in the forum to my thread, Barahir. 

It's an interesting point of view, but how do you think my original question:
"Why did Gandalf behave as if he did not know Aragorn and co.?"


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## Barahir (Apr 29, 2002)

Many thanks shadowfax!!

to answer your question, i agree with pontifex amd gamil as regards the 'trauma' concept as to maybe why he didnt recognise aragorn etc in Fangorn.

After his spirit departing from his body for a period of time, you would have expected a few memory/recollection difficulties, maia or not.

that said, if I remember rightly, he still recognised Gwaihir fast enough when he bore Gandalf to Lothlorien - so there does appear to be slight inconsistency as to Gandalf's powers of memory recollection ;-)


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## shadowfax_g (May 1, 2002)

Thanks everyone for interesting inputs.
Honestly still I am not convinced either that Gandalf was just playing or that he got a new body after the deadly damage.. The former is unlike Gandalf, the latter does not explain his too quick memory recovery after Aragorn recognised him. (He did not have any trouble with his memory after that, it's kind of unnatural.)

Probably Gandalf was so shocked by Leglas' pointing him with an arrow that he had forgotten their names instantly.


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## Niniel (May 1, 2002)

I still think it's weird that he can telle them everything about how the war is going (which must have been told him by Galadriel?) but that he doesn't seem to remember the names of his former companions, who by the way also play an important role in the war.


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## shadowfax_g (May 1, 2002)

I'm sorry but I don't quite follow your last sentence, Niniel.
Which war or battle did you mean?


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## Niniel (May 2, 2002)

I meant that if Gandalf knew so much about the war, it would be very strange if he didn't remember the names of people who played a very important part in the war. But then again, he doesn't show that he doesn't remember Aragorn's name, who was the most important, only that he didn't know Gimli's and Legolas' names, and they were less important in the war itself. But it is still strange.


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## shadowfax_g (May 2, 2002)

I am not quite sure which war you mean.. are you talking about the attack by orcs at The Great River?
If it is so, I think Gandalf asked Gwaihir to watch the River and gather tidings. He also asked Aragorn to tell what had happend after his fall.


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## Wood Elf (May 2, 2002)

Yeah, this is an interesting part in the book. I think Gandalf might have been testing them. Hmm, this is odd, you'd think Gandalf wouldn't mess with them, but he does. He kinda puts a 'spell' on them. Legolas, Aragorn and Gimli just stand there, not moving, and Legolas drops his bow like he isn't in control of himself. Maybe Gandalf is displaying first some of his new power over them before he reveals himself to get them to...gee, I really don't know!  Why would Gandalf do this? Anyone know? Grr! I would like to know! Does Tolkien in his letters mention this meeting between the trio and Gandalf? Hmm.....?


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## Grond (May 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Barahir _
> *Many thanks shadowfax!!
> 
> to answer your question, i agree with pontifex amd gamil as regards the 'trauma' concept as to maybe why he didnt recognise aragorn etc in Fangorn.
> ...


Hail and well met good Barahir. I must disagree with your premise of Gandalf being restored to his old body. 

From The Two Towers, The White Rider, it states,
*'...Naked I was sent back - for a brief time, until my task is done. And naked I lay upon the mountain-top. The tower behind was crumbled into dust, the windows gone; the ruined stair was choked with burned and broken stone. I was alone, forgotten, without escape upon the hard horn of the world. There I lay staring upward, while the stars wheeled over, and each day was as long as a life-age of the earth. Faint to my ears came the gathered rumour of all lands; the springing and the dying, the song and the weeping, and the slow everlasting groan of overburdened stone. And so at the last Gwaihir the Windlord found me again, and he took me up and bore me away.
"Ever am I fated to be your burden, friend at need," I said.
"A burden you have been," he answered, "but no so now. Light as a swan's feather in my claw you are. The sun shines through you. Indeed I do not think you need me any more; were I to let you fall, you would float upon the wind."...'*

This quote indicates to me that Gandalf was rehoused in a new and improved body that was so powerful that no weapon on Middle-earth could harm it. The old body faded away and Gandalf was provided a new body that took some time to form. That is my take on the lighter than a feather thing. Of course, it isn't explained in detail and that is just my humble opinion.


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