# Who controls the Watcher in the Water?



## Ithrynluin (Oct 22, 2002)

I got this idea from another forum.
Who controls the mysterious Watcher in the water?
Discuss.


----------



## Elu Thingol (Oct 22, 2002)

This is the quote most of us will be basing our thoughts on so here it is



> "He did not speak aloud his thought that whatever it was that dwelt in the lake, it had seized Frodo first among all the Company."



The fact that the beast goes for Frodo excludes the Watcher itself and most likely the Balrog. I can't really say if it's Saruman or Sauron.


----------



## Ithrynluin (Oct 22, 2002)

On the contrary,I think the Watcher itself is the most likely option.
(Second place for Sauron,and the last place shared by the Balrog and Saruman).
I think so mainly because of Gandalf saying :



> Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things.Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he.



Of course,just because they are older,does not necessarily mean they are not under Sauron's control,but it's a hunch.Everything that was evil was not necessarily in league with Sauron, it may have had an agenda of its own.
Saruman controlling it is even less likely IMO,because whatever evil was left in ME would bow before Sauron,the Dark Lord,and not to Saruman, a new comer(compared to Sauron).


----------



## Elu Thingol (Oct 22, 2002)

I see your point about Saruman but disagree with you about it being the Watcher itself. And I just realized something! It actually could be the watcher itself maybe it was just hungre, in that case it would go for the weakest member of the group, one of the hobbits. However, Gandalf's hunches are usually not just hunches.


----------



## Ithrynluin (Oct 22, 2002)

You are contradicting yourself a bit. Gandalf's observation was made greater in his mind than it really was,because he was afraid that the quest would fail.He said nothing because he didn't desire to alarm anyone needlessly.That's my opinion anyway.


----------



## Theoden (Oct 22, 2002)

I agree with ithrynluin. I think that staying consistant with Tolkiens ideas and characters, an ancient creature like the Watcher would have a will of it's own. I do not think, however, that it grabbed Frodo by chance. It seems that though many of the evil things of the earth did not know about the rings of power, they were drawn to it due to it's evil. I would have to say the Watcher had a mind of his own and if not it, than the ring was what was calling the shots...


----------



## Elu Thingol (Oct 22, 2002)

Very good insight Theoden, I like your idea. Also ithrynluin I am in no way contradicting myself because I had not yet made up my mind. I was still waying all the issues. Yes, the ring may have drawn the monster but do you have evidence?


----------



## Grond (Oct 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Elu Thingol _
> *Very good insight Theoden, I like your idea. Also ithrynluin I am in no way contradicting myself because I had not yet made up my mind. I was still waying all the issues. Yes, the ring may have drawn the monster but do you have evidence? *


 There is none, other than the fact that the Ring is portrayed in the book as the next - most Evil thing on Middle-earth besides Sauron. It is also given near sentience and is constantly referred to as having a "Will". I think that is all merely related to Sauron's evil and that the Ring is akin to a magnet which constantly seeks (as best it can) to be returned to it's master. 

These Ring-portrayals in the book, would make the Watcher acting on his own... but grabbing for Frodo probably the more feasible of the arguments. But, JRRT never really addressed this issue in any of the books I've read.


----------



## Elu Thingol (Oct 22, 2002)

Ahhh.. here is an argument I didn't think of. If infact it is the ring that draws the watcher, then one could argue that the Ring controlled the mysterious watcher. And sense you could argue that the ring is part of Sauron, then you could say Sauron did indeed control the watcher.


----------



## Theoden (Oct 23, 2002)

Grond is right. There are a lot of things that are mentioned in the books but never spelled out in detail. I would have to say that this seems, in part, to be one of those cases. I still do not think that it was Sauron who controlled the Watcher through the ring, however indirect or direct his connections were with it. The ring had been parted from the dark lord for over 2500 years... I think it was the evil in the ring itself that drew the Watcher to snatch Frodo from among the other fellowship members.

-me


----------



## Pale King (Oct 23, 2002)

How about the simple explanation that Tolkien had the Watcher grab Frodo simply for dramatic effect? Its quite possible that Tolkien was simply building the pressure on Frodo and increasing the fear for him and the Ring in the mind of the reader. Its possible that not every connotation was explored fully by Tolkien and that some details are there purely to build the atmosphere within the text and plot. 

I know that it is not really Tolkiens style to leave such matters unatended to, however from what I know of the texts he never actually gives us any other clues on this matter therefore we are surely in the realms of pure speculation?

I am more than happy to be proved wrong on this one by the way .


----------



## Theoden (Oct 23, 2002)

Well, perhaps it was for dramas sake, but I would rather believe that it was a more fantastical reason then just a whim of the authors imagination. But like you said, we may never know for sure.

-me


----------



## Húrin Thalion (Oct 23, 2002)

There is one question that is very similar to this one, did Sauron control the snow masses at Caradhras? Personally I think that he did not but I have not been able to confirm it anywhere. 

Elen


----------



## Ithrynluin (Oct 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Elen Carnë _
> *There is one question that is very similar to this one, did Sauron control the snow masses at Caradhras? Personally I think that he did not but I have not been able to confirm it anywhere.
> 
> Elen *



I agree with that,I think it was just the "evil will" of the mountain itself.


----------



## Galadhwen (Oct 23, 2002)

The mountains were reared by Morgorth and hated elves and dwarves perhaps it was something to do with his ancient malice, which could also be the same for Kracken the Watcher, could he be some ancient thing that Morgorth knew of (or not) deep in the depths of the mountains before Moria? I agree that the Ring probobly drew Kracken to Frodo as it is all evil and invites evil which kinda invokes the question would the Watcher have stirred by the will of the Ring even if the surface of the lake had not been disturbed? 
I said Sauron controlled it but now I'm not so sure!


----------



## gate7ole (Oct 23, 2002)

One thing that hasn't been discussed about the Watcher is that it acts not like a beast, but as a sentient creature. Its origins cannot be thus located to other than Morgoth himself. His uncontrollable actions during the FA, especially east of the Ered Lindon, where no Eldar dwelt to stop him, must have produced such aboninable creatures.
Now, the question arises, whether Sauron had control over all the prior servants of Morgoth. I believe so. When he returned to ME and regained his strength, I'm sure that his first moves where to re-establish the bonds with all the evil creatures. And he wouldn't have any problem locating them. So, he must have known the existence of the Watcher and have put it under his service.


----------



## Grond (Oct 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by gate7ole _
> *One thing that hasn't been discussed about the Watcher is that it acts not like a beast, but as a sentient creature. Its origins cannot be thus located to other than Morgoth himself. His uncontrollable actions during the FA, especially east of the Ered Lindon, where no Eldar dwelt to stop him, must have produced such aboninable creatures.
> Now, the question arises, whether Sauron had control over all the prior servants of Morgoth. I believe so. When he returned to ME and regained his strength, I'm sure that his first moves where to re-establish the bonds with all the evil creatures. And he wouldn't have any problem locating them. So, he must have known the existence of the Watcher and have put it under his service. *


 Your theory holds no water since both Shelob and the Balrog would fall into this category. It is clear from the texts that the Balrog was not subservient to Sauron nor was Shelob. I feel the Watcher would fall into an other category just as would Gothmog (Maia) and Shelob (Daughter of Maia).


----------



## krash8765 (Oct 23, 2002)

Out of the Tolkein Bestiary for Kraken



> "According to the most ancient tales, Melkor, that most evil of Powers, in his kingdom of Utumno in Middle-earth bred many terrible creatures for which there are no names in the Time of Darkness before Vards rekindled the Stars. In the following Ages these creatures were a bane on land and in dark waters to those who lived peacefully in the world. Some of these beings of Melkor's survived below the thunders of the deep far beneath the abysmal seas in ancient, dreamless, uninvaded sleep even into the Third Age of the sun. The "Red Book of Westmarch" tells that when a fiery Balrog was loosed in Moria, another being came out from the dark waters that lay below the great mountains. This was a great Kraken, many tentacled and huge with a slimy sheen. It was luminous and green and an inky stench came from its foul bulk. Like a legion of serpents it lay in the black water beneath the mountain. Eventually it came to the clear water of the River Sirannon, which flowed from the West Gate of Moria. There it built a great wall in the river bed and made for itself a black pool, hideous and still. This being was guardian of the West Gate and none could pass without challenge. For this reason, in the "Book of mazarbul" The Kraken was named Watcher in the water.


----------



## Grond (Oct 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by krash8765 _
> *Out of the Tolkein Bestiary for Kraken *


 Not a valid source document as the Bestiary was not written by Tolkien. I find no such reference in any of Tolkien's primary corpus. Please provide me with a quote from Hob, LotR, Sil, UT, or HoMe which would substantiate that description.


----------



## Lantarion (Oct 24, 2002)

Exactly. There are many works that either seem to be true or that just sound ridiculous, and are both incorrect in many ways. What the 'Bestiary' says on this matter is speculation, as Tolkien does not introduce this knowledge anywhere (perhaps in the 'Letters'; if so, a quote would be wonderful). 

Anyway, I voted that the Watcher had a mind and will of its own: as has stated, there were older and fouler things in the world than Sauron that are not under his dominion.. And I personally think that it grabbing Frodo first was just a coincidence: it states in the LotR that he was standing closest to the lake, so it would be quite rational for the beat to go for him first: it was only stressed that it was Frodo because so much depends on him throughout the whole book.

Another theory, though, is that the Ring was 'commanding' it. As we have seen, the Ring does seem to have a sort of 'will' of its own. At least it can be said that it has a strange knack for attracting evil/greedy/weak-minded/proud things or people to it (Cf. Nazgûl, Boromir). So perhaps the rock thrown by Boromir (it was Boromir, wasn't it?) was of no importance, but the Ring perhaps found a chance, so to speak, to attract the creature towards the Company so that it could reallocate itself (ie. get lost) again. Perhaps an extra option could be added to the poll?


----------



## Grond (Oct 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Lantarion _
> *...Another theory, though, is that the Ring was 'commanding' it. As we have seen, the Ring does seem to have a sort of 'will' of its own. At least it can be said that it has a strange knack for attracting evil/greedy/weak-minded/proud things or people to it (Cf. Nazgûl, Boromir). So perhaps the rock thrown by Boromir (it was Boromir, wasn't it?) was of no importance, but the Ring perhaps found a chance, so to speak, to attract the creature towards the Company so that it could reallocate itself (ie. get lost) again. Perhaps an extra option could be added to the poll? *


Their are no quotes in the Letters, I had already checked before I posted... nor in any of the texts of HoMe that I could find. (but I could have missed something) 

I do not agree with you Lantarion that the Ring controlled the Watcher but do concede that the Ring seemed to possess a "magical attraction" for evil in some cases. I say some cases, because it certainly didn't seem to attract the Nazgul while Frodo was in the Shire. He stood not but a few feet from Khamal as the Nazgul talked to Gaffer Gamgee and the Ring seemed to be ineffectual; however, Caradhras, The Watcher in the Water and the Orc Chieftan in Moria all seem to be "drawn" to the Ring. Either that, or poor Frodo just had some really bad luck!


----------



## gate7ole (Oct 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Grond_
> Your theory holds no water since both Shelob and the Balrog would fall into this category. It is clear from the texts that the Balrog was not subservient to Sauron nor was Shelob.


I don't find it clear that the Balrog was not a servant of Sauron. It may had been left there to hold the dwarves outside Moria and thus hinder any endeavor to pass through it. Also, Shelob's existence was known to Sauron and he left it at Cirith Ungol as a guardian. I don't say that they were completely under Sauron's sevice, but they definitely served his plan and he let them be for this reason. But eventually whatever they did was in favor of Sauron.


----------



## Grond (Oct 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by gate7ole _
> *I don't find it clear that the Balrog was not a servant of Sauron. It may had been left there to hold the dwarves outside Moria and thus hinder any endeavor to pass through it. Also, Shelob's existence was known to Sauron and he left it at Cirith Ungol as a guardian. I don't say that they were completely under Sauron's sevice, but they definitely served his plan and he let them be for this reason. But eventually whatever they did was in favor of Sauron. *


 Not to be a spoil sport, but if I had a powerful Balrog and a powerful descendant of Ungoliant under my control.... they would have been leading my armies.

Also, the Balrogs always were in the train of Melkor and never were shown to serve Sauron at all in any of their actions during the First Age. I imagine they were jealous of Sauron's position and would likely not serve him. I will research this further and report back.


----------



## Nenya Evenstar (Oct 25, 2002)

To add to Grond's last thought... after all, the Balrogs were Maia just like Sauron. It would be very hard for them to bow their necks to one who had at one time been at their same level.

It is my opinion that the Watcher was not controlled directly by anyone but himself. I can easily see the Ring attracting his attention to Frodo, but it is my personal opinion that he was alerted of the Fellowship's presence by Boromir's rock. But, you have all already covered this. One interesting question, however, is why since there was more than one arm would the creature grab only Frodo? Couldn't he have grabbed more than one person?

Perhaps the Watcher had heard of the Ring, and perhaps he was a Maia. Who knows what whispers and rumors floated around in the deep, dark places of the world. Perhaps the Watcher was alerted or could feel the Ring's presence and was seeking to get it for himself? Perhaps he wished to contest Sauron as he was envious of Sauron's power? After all, within the forces of evil exists spite, division, treachery, and greed. This, of course, is simply conjecture, but it is an idea that came to me as I read this thread.


----------



## Galadhwen (Oct 25, 2002)

I'm sorry Nenya but I just can't see Kraken wielding the One and ruling Middle Earth! Could you imagine it- the many tentacles of Sirannon
As for not going for anyone else perhaps he was just intent on getting Frodo for whatever reason or maybe the others were standing further away from the lake.


----------



## Nenya Evenstar (Oct 25, 2002)

And neither can I picture that, but such is the greatness of imagination. We will never know for sure what the beast's real intent was, but I just thought I'd throw that thought out there for the hec of it - to give everyone some food for thought.


----------



## Galadhwen (Oct 25, 2002)

Yea, pity that, and what I still want to know is where the heck did it come from! I started a thread up for this ages back and I don't think we came up with an answer- any thoughts?


----------



## Nenya Evenstar (Oct 25, 2002)

> Yea, pity that, and what I still want to know is where the heck did it come from!


I have no idea! It just came... and it still intruiges me. What if????? Another answer could be that it was almost 1:00 in the morning....


----------



## Mr. Istari (Oct 20, 2007)

I see that this is a really old thread but I felt I should throw my own two cents in...

Well about who 'controls' the watcher in the water...
I believe he controls himself. I have yet to read anything that proves anything otherwise... Then again there is a lot that I haven't read.

As for why it went for frodo...
I think it went for Frodo because of the ring but I dont think the ring or Sauron had any control over it. It seems to me that the watcher could 'sense' the power of the ring and mayhaps have been attracted by it's evilness and therefore would have gone for the one who had it in their possession. (and no I can't explain why the Nazgul didn't notice in the shire)

As for where the kracken came from...
I think that the most reasonable explanation would be that it had come up from the depths of Moria. If I remember correctly it is even said that Sauron did not know of all of the things in the depths of the mountains so it is possible that it had made it's way up to the surface (possibly to feed?) and settled in the waters right outside the West Gate of Moria without the aid or Sauron or Morgoth and therefore may have even been out of their knowledge...

Like I said I am very under-read so if anyone more knowledgable want's to prove me wrong that's fine with me. This is all just speculation and hypothesis.

- Mr. Istari


----------



## Starbrow (Oct 24, 2007)

I would say that the Watcher is in control of himself. After reading the other posts, I would also say that the Ring may be exerting an influence on it. Maybe be encouraging evil or trying to leave Frodo, as it has "left" other bearers, such as Gollum.


----------



## Meselyn (Oct 25, 2007)

I always got the feeling that it did whatever it wanted. Like it was placed there to stand guard.


----------



## Mr. Istari (Nov 2, 2007)

New theory:
*I* control the watcher in the water!


----------



## Noldor_returned (Nov 6, 2007)

I vote that as the most likely 

Well I don't think Saruman was aware of its prescence, as I can't remember Gandalf knowing of it either. And the Balrog, IMO, seemed to just sit around in the Pits and only come out when it was disturbed, and therefore the Watcher was fairly insignificant to the Balrog. I would like to think Sauron commanded it and it was another of his nets, yet I think the Watcher is independant and it was just misfortune that its discovery coincided with the path taken by the Fellowship.


----------



## Neumy (Nov 13, 2007)

I voted "the Watcher itself".

By the time the Fellowship passed through that area, I believe the Watcher was in full control of its own actions and was not influenced by any other. However, I do believe he was "placed" there by another (probably Saruman / maybe the Balrog).

- Sauron: I can't believe that Sauron had directed any thought towards Moria. He was focused on building his army, his power, and (of course) finding the ring; why would he care who entered (or left) Moria?

- Balrog: I don't know the true purpose the Balrog was destined to play beyond the fight with Gandalf. It is my understanding that Sauron or Saruman could not control the Balrog without the power of the ring. I also believe that the Balrog did not have any desires of its own. It _might_ have placed the Watcher there to help encourage others not to enter Moria; but why would he care? The only reason I can think of is to ensure that any who entered from the east gate do not escape out the west gate.

- Saruman: Isengard was a perfect central location to control the world. If anyone tried to get from one place to another, you had to pass near Isengard. When the Fellowship travelled south, they had two options on how to pass by Isengard: 1) over (or under) the mountain or 2) west to the coast and around the White Mountains. West was too long and Saruman had his spies and control of the Mountains - I can see him placing the Watcher at the entrance of Moria to ensure that the way "under" was closed to all who tried. This way, wherever the Fellowship (or any other traveller went), Saruman was in control.


----------



## Mr. Istari (Nov 13, 2007)

Hello world!

I'm kinda tired so I decided to argue with myself and thought of something.
What If...

What If Saruman had placed the watcher there on purpose?
I think it might be possible and would have been a smartish move on his part. There were only the three ways for the fellowship to go: over the mountains, under the mountains, or around the mountains. Logically the best route for the fellowship to take would be under the mountains because that was the place of the least influence of Saruman. Therefore placing the watcher there would be Sarumans (weak) attempt at stopping the fellowship from travelling through. This would also explain why the watcher went for Frodo because it would have been instructed to possibly... Then again it wouldnt really know the difference between most of the party members let alone the difference between each of the hobbitses. (man I shoulda thought that one a little more through)

Oh well... It's a possibility and you can't prove it wrong ha!
(well I don't think you can anyways)


----------



## Gothmog (Nov 14, 2007)

I think that it is very unlikely for the 'Watcher' to have been placed there by Saruman and therefore would rule out the possibility that he had any control over it. In FotR: Chapter 5. The Bridge of Khazad-dûm, Gandalf is reading from the record of the Dwarves attempt to 're-colonise' the Dwarrowdelf. This record shows not only that the lake was formed by the damming of the Sirannon at the time of this earlier entry to Moria. Part of what Gandalf read is as follows:



> Then there are four lines smeared so that I can only read _went 5 days ago_. The last lines run _the pool is up to the wall at Westgate. The Watcher in the Water took Óin. We cannot get out. The end comes_, and then _drums, drums in the deep_. I wonder what that means. The last thing written is in a trailing scrawl of elf-letters: _they are coming._ There is nothing more.' Gandalf paused and stood in silent thought.


Since I doubt that Saruman would have been interested in the Dwarves trying to regain Moria at that time the damming of the gate-stream and the apperance of the 'Watcher' would be down to either the Balrog or the Orcs blocking the escape of their enemies.

It is possible, or even likely that either the Orcs or the Balrog somehow drove the creature out of its normal home and into the growing pool to stop the Dwarves from escaping by boat. I do not believe, however, that there is any more control than that. I would say that the Watcher controled it self.


----------



## Leveller (Dec 2, 2007)

I always though the watcher controlled itself. Maybe it was created by morgoth long ago, a corrupted Maia. Or it was a Maia who served neither the Valar or Morgoth, like Ungoliant. Or it was one of Ungoliants offsprings. Etc etc... 
As for the reason it took Frodo first, I belive it was because it was somehow "drawn" to the ring, it could sense the rings' power and wanted it for itself. Or it just attacked whoever stood closest to the lake.


----------



## Bucky (Dec 20, 2007)

Theories are nice, but theories are just that: 

Somebody's OWN IDEAS.

The FACTS ARE THIS:

Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things.Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. 

The Watcher in the Water is one of these......

UNLESS, The Watcher is Indeed The Balrog in it's wet form, which I seriously doubt, but it could be, because Gandalf describes it after it's fall from the Bridge at Kazad-dum as 'A thing of slime, stronger than a strangling snake'.

That, however, hardly sounds like the Watcher, which Gandalf saw.
But, we must consider that Gandalf only felt & couldn't really see much in the deep recesses of the earth while fighting with the Balrog until it burst forth in flame anew upon exiting from the endless stair.

Just a thought......


----------



## Noldor_returned (Jan 3, 2008)

Good thoughts but the Watcher was not slimy if i recall correctly...I have debated the slime topic elsewhere...I'll see what we had about it and bring it over...


----------



## greypilgrim (Jan 3, 2008)

I think Bucky nailed it. Morgoth made it, it serves him alone. It's one of those evil creatures that roamed around in the ancient times of Morgoth's reign. Was does Tolkien say about it?


----------



## Gothmog (Jan 3, 2008)

greypilgrim, while I agree with you that Bucky did 'Nail it'. I would not go so far as to say that "Morgoth made it, it serves him alone." In fact I would say that even Morgoth did not know about it.

In my view, a better expanation would be that 'The Watcher' was a creature that came about due to the 'Clash of Music' during Melkor's rebelion in the Ainulindale. Things would have come out of that Battle that not even Eru himself foresaw. Melkor would not have taken any notice of them as he was too caught up in what he was doing that any side effects would have been ignored.

Just my (not at all) humble opinion


----------



## greypilgrim (Jan 3, 2008)

Hmm, I was only remembering the scary forest near Beleriand from the Sil, and it being near mountains and all, I figured Morgoth put his minions in there to waylay elves and dirty humans in that region, the Watcher being just one of the ones he made under that mountain he shacked up in...what was it called? Utumno? Anyways it seemed to like water or need it, that much is plain.


----------



## Arvegil (Jan 13, 2008)

Bucky's explanation is the one I always believed in.


----------



## Master of maps (Apr 27, 2008)

I dont think it says in any of the books who is in charge of the watcher in the water, so i feel implyed to say that no-one "controls" the watcher in the water. Regardless of who it "serves" (for want of a better word), it makes its own decisions. A better phraised question would probibly get a better answer, lol.

By the way Leveller, ungoliant was a spider, and so are her offspring. ex. Shelob


----------



## Firawyn (Apr 27, 2008)

I voted "the Watcher itself", because I've always thought that it was, like the Ents, to much a part of nature to be control by an outside source.

On the other hand, Sauron did have that "cruelty, malice, and will to dominate all life."



Perhaps he did have at least some control of the Watcher. Perhaps his orders were to "eat whatever shows up", or perhaps, back to my original vote, perhaps the Watcher, like bears, just get really pissed off when you wake them up from naps!


----------



## Barliman Butterbur (Apr 27, 2008)

Ithrynluin said:


> I got this idea from another forum.
> Who controls the mysterious Watcher in the water?
> Discuss.



I always thought Sauron did. On the other hand, "there are things deeper darker and fouler and who've been around longer" even than the creatures Sauron controls.

Barley


----------



## Illuin (Aug 29, 2008)

I think The Watcher did his own thing; but Frodo’s presence and location were magnified due to the Ring. 



> from Bucky
> _Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things.Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. _
> 
> _The Watcher in the Water is one of these......_


 
I agree; but only to a point; simply because the quoted reference has always bothered me; and I’m still not entirely convinced that Tolkien did not overlook this. This isn’t quite the same as the Bombadil situation; where Tom alludes to his age by way of known events in ancient history; this actually says “*older* than Sauron”. I think he made a boo-boo. 



> from Gothmog
> _while I agree with you that Bucky did 'Nail it'. I would not go so far as to say that "Morgoth made it, it serves him alone." In fact I would say that even Morgoth did not know about it._
> 
> _In my view, a better expanation would be that 'The Watcher' was a creature that came about due to the 'Clash of Music' during Melkor's rebelion in the Ainulindale. Things would have come out of that Battle that not even Eru himself foresaw._


 
Even so, that would not make something “older” than the Ainur. Older than Arda and Eä; possibly; but the only being older than the Ainur that I know of is Eru; unless we completely disregard the Ainulindalë*.*

*PS* - Since Gandalf did not know what The Watcher was, it is possible that Tolkien, as writer knows that nothing other than Eru is older than the Ainur; but Gandalf "within the story" does not.


----------



## YayGollum (Aug 29, 2008)

Or it could just mean that Sauron wasn't there at the beginning of time. Ainur can have children, and I don't remember reading that Sauron was one of the first Ainur to be poofed into being. Closer to most people's unfounded viewpoints, was anything written that said that all Ainur were poofed into being at the same time? Eru could have had really long and gradual brainstorming sessions. Or you could go with the less sensible idea of certain spirits having older natures. Older maturity-wise? Mayhaps?


----------



## Bucky (Aug 29, 2008)

Or it could just mean that Sauron wasn't there at the beginning of time.

*That's what I always thought, like Tom Bombadil saying he was "there before the Dark Lord (Morgoth I take it) came in from the outside" - It's a time thing according to time in Arda, not outside Arda.*

Ainur can have children,

*That's highly debateable. The only one who did in Tolkien's later mythology, Melian did so by taking on the form of an Elf, not as a Maia. Sauron was no Elf, Man or Dwarf.
Fionwe, son of Manwe, became Eonwe, 'Herald of Manwe'.*



and I don't remember reading that Sauron was one of the first Ainur to be poofed into being. Closer to most people's unfounded viewpoints, was anything written that said that all Ainur were poofed into being at the same time? Eru could have had really long and gradual brainstorming sessions. Or you could go with the less sensible idea of certain spirits having older natures. Older maturity-wise? Mayhaps?

*I don't recall anything saying the Ainur weren't 'poofed' into being at the same time either....

But the point here is that the Ainur were all 'poofed' by the time Eru gathered them together & told them about his plan, i.e., The Music.

Also please note, from 'Of the Rings of Power & the 3rd Age:

'Of old there was Sauron the Maia... In the BEGINNING of Arda Melkor seduced him to his allegience....'

However, if you read the very end of Ainulindale, it appears that Melkor probably came down to Arda originally alone. Either way, Sauron was in Arda soon after the Valar were.....*


----------



## Illuin (Aug 29, 2008)

> by YayGollum
> _Or it could just mean that Sauron wasn't there at the beginning of time. Ainur can have children, and I don't remember reading that Sauron was one of the first Ainur to be poofed into being. Closer to most people's unfounded viewpoints, was anything written that said that all Ainur were poofed into being at the same time? Eru could have had really long and gradual brainstorming sessions. Or you could go with the less sensible idea of certain spirits having older natures. Older maturity-wise? Mayhaps?_


 
Well, The Watcher must have been one of the Ainur; if the very first words of The Silmarillion are to be taken seriously:

_“There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Ilúvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him* before aught else was made*."_

There is still no evidence that some Ainur are older than others.


----------



## Bucky (Aug 30, 2008)

Well, The Watcher must have been one of the Ainur; if the very first words of The Silmarillion are to be taken seriously:

“There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Ilúvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made."


*I think that's not correct in terms of time on ARDA....

That is based on when the 'Ainur' (afterwards known as Valar & Maiar) entered Arda....

That's when time began.

The simplest explanation is that the Watcher was just there & created/happened/whatever before Sauron entered into Arda, like when Melkor was fighting the Valar & all those convulsions: mountains & valleys being raised & broken, etc....

As for The Watcher being an Ainu, can't be because we must assume it doesn't talk & Tolkien says in 'Myths Transformed' that talking in creatures is a sign of Ainur spirits - I know what about Balrogs?  *


----------



## Illuin (Aug 30, 2008)

Well, fun imagining different scenarios anyway. Along with Bombadil and Ungoliant; we can only guess.


----------



## Bucky (Aug 30, 2008)

Yeah, you know I was looking for a long time now for where Tolkien mentions the 'Ancient Evils' created way 'back in the day'.....

I guess around the time of Melkor versus the Valar - I can never find it though.

Other folks have mentioned it too.
I even went to the Encyclopedia of Arda & searched, but nothing came up.

The only other thing I came up with is this: 

The Silm, chapter 1:

(After Melkor has fled in fear of Tulkas)

'Then Tulkas slept, being weary & content & Melkor deemed his hour had come. And he passed therefore over the Walls of Night with his host (note that: more on this later).......'

'Now Melkor began the delving & building of a great fortress.... named Utumno.....though the Valar knew naught of it as yet, nonetheless the evil of Melkor and the blight of his hatred flowed out thence..... and beasts became monsters of horn & ivory & dyed the earth with blood.'

Interesting to note about the twisting of these creatures due to the hatred of Melkor. Could be The Watcher came about then & Gandalf simply means "older than he" (Sauron) in respect to Sauron coming to Middle-earth. Remember that Sauron belonged to the People of Aule & was corrupted to Melkor's service later - who knows. Probably Tolkien didn't & would've wrote a paper on it.

The other point, which I never noticed until typing is, as I stated in my previous post, is that it appears Melkor came first alone.....

Then was drove out by Tulkas & as it states here, returned with a host of corrupted Ainur.

This makes sense.....

Melkor tries to defeat the Valar alone, Tulkas drives him out & he sees the need for help, so he returns with reinforcements. Hence, there are no other 'Vala level' Ainur left to him as they've all gone to Arda already.....

So, he takes as many 'Maiar level' Ainur as he can corrupt with him.


----------



## Illuin (Aug 30, 2008)

> from Bucky
> _Could be The Watcher came about then & Gandalf simply means "older than he" (Sauron) in respect to Sauron coming to Middle-earth._


 
Possibly. Also, Gandalf wasn’t specifically referring to The Watcher when he made that statement:

_‘What was that thing, or were there many of them?’_
_‘I do not know,’ answered Gandalf; ‘but the arms were all guided by one purpose. Something has crept, or has been driven out of dark waters under the mountains. There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.’_

He only refers to Orcs when speaking of The Watcher; so it may have just been another creature bred by Morgoth; maybe one of his early attempts at breeding a Dragon that didn’t quite make it .


----------



## Bucky (Aug 30, 2008)

Possibly. Also, Gandalf wasn’t specifically referring to The Watcher when he made that statement:

‘What was that thing, or were there many of them?’
‘I do not know,’ answered Gandalf; ‘but the arms were all guided by one purpose. Something has crept, or has been driven out of dark waters under the mountains. There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.’

He only refers to Orcs when speaking of The Watcher; so it may have just been another creature bred by Morgoth; maybe one of his early attempts at breeding a Dragon that didn’t quite make it . 

*Well, now, of course the thing with the arms is the Watcher - you know that! 

What would a dragon wannabe be doing thousands of miles from Angband if it didn't have any legs?

'The Watcher in the Water' is simply a name that the Dwarves living there for 5 years had time to give to the thing with the arms that attacked the Fellowship.....

When reading the book in the Chamber of Mazarbul, the Fellowship then put 2 & 2 together & realized that 'The Watcher in the Water' was the name given to the thing which had attacked them at the Hollin Gate - of course.

They could've just as easily called it 'The Thing in the Dammed Up Sirranon River That Has A Lot of Arms and Attacks People Who Go Near the Water", but that really doesn't roll off the tongue. *


----------



## Illuin (Aug 30, 2008)

> from Bucky
> _What would a dragon wannabe be doing thousands of miles from Angband if it didn't have any legs?_


 
Maybe Morgoth was embarrassed by his debacle; tossed the thing in a big sack; and had some of his henchman take it far away out of his sight .


----------



## Noldor_returned (Aug 31, 2008)

This might have been an evil bred by itself. In the Bible, God did not make Satan in the seven days, but he made Adam and Eve. However, Satan appears fairly quickly and I can't remember where from.

Also, there may have been some kind of Beowulfian and also therefore Biblical influence here, because in that it says that Grendel and Grendel's mother were descendants of Cain along with werewolves and all evil beings, the guy who killed his brother and caused all the sin to emerge (or something like that). Perhaps Tolkien wished to be mysterious and was going along the lines that Ungoliant and the Watcher are evils born by evil, as happened with Grendel and his mother from Cain.


----------



## Illuin (Aug 31, 2008)

> by Noldor_returned
> _This might have been an evil bred by itself. In the Bible, God did not make Satan in the seven days, but he made Adam and Eve. However, Satan appears fairly quickly and I can't remember where from._


 
Satan parallels Morgoth; and ancient angelic being that was corrupted by his own pride; and was around long before Adam and Eve. 
But the possibilities are many with this Watcher. Since it was in the same location as the Balrog; it may have escaped along with him during the War of Wrath. The more I think about it; I'm tending to think it was just another foul creature bred by Morgoth; another Dragon type thing.


----------



## Thorin (Sep 5, 2008)

In looking at all the discussion on this thread, I find it funny that so many seem so confused by the Watcher. Many things seem clear to me...

1) Gandalf was speaking of the Watcher when saying 'there are things older than he'

2) I agree with Bucky that 'older than Sauron' does not refer to him as a Maia, but from his entering ME as a personal force. (Just as Gandalf refers to Treebeard as 'the oldest living thing in ME'. Technically, he wouldn't be, the wizard Maia would be, but as far as living in ME, he would be)

I agree with Theoden at the beginning of this thread. I believe the Watcher was not controlled by anyone, but most likely the evil power of the ring drew it to Frodo. I believe we shouldn't read more into Gandalf's observation of this than that.

The ring draws and corrupts that which is evil or prone to it (such as Gollum). I would say the Watcher would fit that description, don't you?


----------



## Illuin (Sep 5, 2008)

> by Thorin
> _I agree with Bucky that 'older than Sauron' does not refer to him as a Maia, but from his entering ME as a personal force._


 
That is certainly one of the many possibilities.


> by Thorin
> _Gandalf was speaking of the Watcher when saying 'there are things older than he'_


 
Possibly; but he speaking about creatures “in general” when he made that statement. He was reciting his battle with the Balrog to Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli in Fangorn:

_"We fought far under the living earth, where time is not counted. Ever he clutched me, and ever I hewed him, till at last he fled into the dark tunnels. They were not made by Durin’s folk, Gimli son of Gloin. Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."_

I see no evidence of The Watcher here; and it is not so clear-cut. When speaking about “The Watcher” specifically; he only refers to Orcs:

_‘What was that thing, or were there many of them?’_
_‘I do not know,’ answered Gandalf; ‘but the arms were all guided by one purpose. Something has crept, or has been driven out of dark waters under the mountains. There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.’_



> by Thorin
> _In looking at all the discussion on this thread, I find it funny that so many seem so confused by the Watcher._


 
Confused? We’re not confused; we are just bored and like to babble about nonsense and ridiculous theories . That’s why we join forums .


----------



## Thorin (Sep 5, 2008)

> By IluinI see no evidence of The Watcher here; and it is not so clear-cut. When speaking about “The Watcher” specifically; he only refers to Orcs:
> 
> ‘What was that thing, or were there many of them?’
> ‘I do not know,’ answered Gandalf; ‘but the arms were all guided by one purpose. Something has crept, or has been driven out of dark waters under the mountains. There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.’



I don't understand your logic here, Iluin. Gandalf is answering the question about the Watcher in the Water. He says that there are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.

Now Gandalf's words tell us two things...

1) His phrase "there are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world." are in direct correlation to the discussion of the Watcher

2) These 'older and fouler things' are NOT talking about Orcs but other things that are more older and more foul THAN the orcs are.

I don't see at all how the reference here is only talking about Orcs. It is talking about things 'other than' Orcs, not Orcs themselves. As the Orcs are foul and old, there are things that are more older and fouler...like the Watcher that was the starter of this conversation to begin with.

This is why I can't understand why there needs to even be clarification on this area concerning the Watcher.


----------



## Illuin (Sep 5, 2008)

Well, of course I realize that. That particular quote happens to be directly linked to The Watcher. But my other quote is not. He can be talking about any creepy crawler (first quote). There was a Balrog down there; there could be old Morgoth abominations that fled; who knows. It seems this has strayed a bit from what we were originally talking about (which now I can’t even remember). At any rate; it was a “thing”; and whatever it was, or whether it was older than Sauron will never be known. I just find it fun to kick around some amusing ideas; but I see no reason to debate about something neither of us can ever prove. I like to think of Bombadil and Goldberry as being Aule and Yavanna disguised. Are they; who knows, and who cares. But it’s still fun playing around with the idea. What about the "_Silent Watchers_"; the triple-bodied, vulture-headed creatures carved out of stone at Cirith Ungol? Were they carved in the likeness of one of those "_Watchers in the Water_"? Who knows; but I like the idea. No one can win a debate when the only thing being debated is our own imaginations. So I’m sticking with my theory; it’s an early, fouled up attempt at breeding a dragon; and it either escaped, or was shunned by it’s breeder Morgoth (those breeders are picky when it comes to pedigree) .


----------



## Thorin (Sep 6, 2008)

Okay...Now I get what it is going on.

You're saying that the Watcher in the water is compared to Orcs, not to Sauron as in the other quote. I understand now. I couldn't figure out why you were seemingly saying that the second quote of being 'older and fouler' was speaking about Orcs being 'older and fouler'.

My bad...pay attention Thorin. 

However considering that Orcs were around since Morgoth's time, I would venture to suggest that the Watcher has been around for many long ages as well and that Gandalf's earlier comment about things in the earth being older than he could also apply to the Watcher as well as to the Balrog and other nasties in ME.


----------



## Bucky (Sep 6, 2008)

We fought far under the living earth, where time is not counted. Ever he clutched me, and ever I hewed him, till at last he fled into the dark tunnels. They were not made by Durin’s folk, Gimli son of Gloin. Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."

I see no evidence of The Watcher here; and it is not so clear-cut. When speaking about “The Watcher” specifically; he only refers to Orcs:

‘What was that thing, or were there many of them?’
‘I do not know,’ answered Gandalf; ‘but the arms were all guided by one purpose. Something has crept, or has been driven out of dark waters under the mountains. There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.’

*Well, you need to put EVERYTHING together. Right before 'There are older & fouler things..':

'Something has crept, or has been driven out of dark waters under the mountains.'

Now, common sense (and the text) tells you right here in black & white (green & white?) that The Watcher came from 'under the mountains' where there are older & fouler things than orcs - granted, but also where there are nameless things older than Sauron - if this isn't proof..... 

The FACT is that The Watcher came from under the mountains where the 'nameless things' were/are, regardless of Gandalf's guess at their age & choice of comparison to orcs or Sauron. 
You must also consider that at the Hollin Gate, Gandalf had not yet been down into the Abyss & tunnels beneath Khazad-Dum & was therefore speculating 'older than orcs' whereas 'after falling, he'd seen the nameless things, so he could make a more educated guess of their age, hence 'older than Sauron'.....

You're placing your entire arguement on Gandalf saying 'older than Orcs' in speculation versus 'older than Sauron (he)' again in speculation. That's just the semantics of Gandalf's phrase.....


Come on, give up the ghost.  

' *


----------



## Illuin (Sep 7, 2008)

Well, Bucky; I think you missed the point of the entire conversation (especially the part regarding imagination). You do understand (I hope) at least "the concept" of what is known as "a sense of humor". Go back and fully re-read the "context" of the previous posts .


----------



## Bucky (Sep 10, 2008)

Musta missed it.....

I can see through a brick wall in time though.


----------



## Prince of Cats (Sep 11, 2008)

I like the idea of Melkor being far-away imprisoned but still being able to somewhat guide his oldest and foulest creatures a bit  Not saying it's what happened, just fantasizing, like if Melkor decided he wanted the ring for the watcher. What would happen then? Tentacle lord?  (anyone played day of the tentacle?)


----------



## dacman (Jan 10, 2009)

Hi, I'm new to the forums, thought this sounded interesting, my opinion follows:
I believe that it could have possibly have been the ring, but I don't think the Watcher would necessarily become a sort of "Dark Lord". from what I've seen, the ring tries to be with the stronger party. When Deagol found it, the ring wanted to be with Smeagol, who was stronger and faster. Boromir was drawn to the ring because he was more powerful than Frodo, and he was the son of the Steward. Perhaps the Watcher was drawn because he was simply stronger than Frodo. Once again, open to criticism.


----------



## Noldor_returned (Jan 11, 2009)

That theory is interesting, but there are a few flaws from where I stand:

-was Boromir stronger than Aragorn? Probably physically but the "son of the Steward" would be much outweighed by Aragorn's claim to the throne, and direct lineage from Isildur. So why wasn't Aragorn drawn?

-The strength of the Watcher? sure, but then the Balrog wasn't going directly after Frodo. And neither it seems, was the Watcher, but it was protecting its territory. After all it only attacked when it was disturbed...read on (from 'A Journey In The Dark'):



> "...As Sam, the last of the Company, led Bill up on to the dry ground on the far side, there came a soft sound: a swish, followed by a plop, as if a fish had disturbed the still surface of the water. Turning quickly they saw ripples, black-edged with shadow in the waning light...
> ...[Boromir] stooped and picking up a large stone cast it far into the dark water.
> The stone vanished with a soft slap; but at the same instant there was a swish and a bubble..."


 
So I do not think it attacked because of its greater strength. But, the next quote from the same chapter helps:


> "...[Gandalf] did not speak aloud his thought that whatever it was that dwelt in the lake, it had seized on Frodo first among all the company..."


 
So what does that leave us with? Well it suggests to me it was drawn by the ring, and here I think is what happens.


Those with a more corrupt heart are drawn to the ring, not necessarily doing Sauron's will. A few arguments for this theory:

Sauron's servants are always drawn to the Ring, be they Nazgul or Orc, although this does not prove the Watcher is under Sauron's control.
Smeagol: He was inquisitive as a youth, and his thirst for knowledge was his undoing. He was the more "evil" of him and Deagol, and so the ring was drawn to him.
Isildur: The ring betrayed him, slipping from his finger in the River and allowing him to be killed.
Frodo offered the Ring to Gandalf, Galadriel, Aragorn and Faramir who all said no due to their wisdom.
Boromir was always desiring the ring's power, and this lust led to his demise to an extent.
Saruman too desired power and was declined.
Let us not forget that the Ring had no power over Bombadil, inferring it has power over others. Gandalf and Aragorn knew it wished to be found, so maybe through Sauron's will within the Ring it had some control over nearby minds. Isildur "...had not the strength to bend it to his will..." (Unfinished Tales) and so he could not command it. If it had power, it could have "seen" those with more corruption in their hearts and used them for its own purpose.
In conclusion, the Ring's power drew the Watcher to Frodo, not out of superior strength, but it was Sauron's will. I still do not think Suaron commanded the Watcher though. It was just an "innocent" bystander. 

Welcome to TTF by the way dacman!


----------



## Bucky (Jan 14, 2009)

Well, Gandalf clearly DOES think that the Watcher in thew Water went after Frodo first if you recall.......

The Balrog, who knows?

I think it is noteworthy that the Balrog allowed Balin & Company to remain in Moria for 5 years without attacking them though.
Durin's Bane also stays at the East-Gate during the final battle of the Dwarf & Goblin war & does not get involved despite watching (Dain Ironfoot sees him).
Why then go after the Fellowship immediately?

One can assume the power of the Ring drew him.


As far as drawing the 'strongest' party, I think Galadriel states clearly the Ring tempts everybody......

Some resist, some don't.
Some resist longer and then give in like Boromir or Frodo while others like Smeagle give in at once.


----------



## Tyelkormo (Jan 14, 2009)

Noldor_returned said:


> That theory is interesting, but there are a few flaws from where I stand:
> 
> -was Boromir stronger than Aragorn? Probably physically but the "son of the Steward" would be much outweighed by Aragorn's claim to the throne, and direct lineage from Isildur. So why wasn't Aragorn drawn?


 
I don't see that Aragorn wasn't drawn - we see, though, that he does not succumb to any such longing if it existed. That, however, could be explained through strength-of-spirit and determination. Cf. his, with the added weight of rightful ownership, can go one-on-one with Sauron through the Palantir and NOT succumb to despair.

Isildur was in a very vulnerable position, having just lost his father - he also wasn't aware of the nature of the Ring. So even if one wanted to make the point and argue that Isildur succumbed, I think it doesn't bear transferring to Aragorn.

But I am not sure the "strength" argument is necessary. Clearly, even for the Ring, the best laid plans don't always pan out. It might well be that the Watcher was somehow drawn to the Ring while not vice versa...


----------



## Ingwë (Jan 14, 2009)

Noldor_returned said:


> The strength of the Watcher? sure, but then the Balrog wasn't going directly after Frodo.



I can accept the theory that the Balrog was drawn by the Ring. Note, Noldor, that the Balrog went after the fellowship. He couldn't go directly after Frodo because they were in the mines and he couldn't have appeared out of thin air (or could he have?). But still he was going to attack the fellowship and it was only Gandalf that stopped him.
And Bucky pointed out, Durin's Bane didn't interfere in Dwarves' deeds and just remained silent.


Bucky said:


> The Balrog, who knows?
> 
> I think it is noteworthy that the Balrog allowed Balin & Company to remain in Moria for 5 years without attacking them though.
> Durin's Bane also stays at the East-Gate during the final battle of the Dwarf & Goblin war & does not get involved despite watching (Dain Ironfoot sees him).
> ...


----------



## Noldor_returned (Jan 15, 2009)

Bucky said:


> I think it is noteworthy that the Balrog allowed Balin & Company to remain in Moria for 5 years without attacking them though.
> Durin's Bane also stays at the East-Gate during the final battle of the Dwarf & Goblin war & does not get involved despite watching (Dain Ironfoot sees him).
> Why then go after the Fellowship immediately?
> 
> One can assume the power of the Ring drew him.


 
I quite agree with this theory. The Ring draws those of evil intent, such as the Watcher and the Balrog and of course the Nazgul. Why did the Watcher attack Frodo specifically, and then why didn't the Balrog?

I think the Watcher was in much closer proximity to Frodo and had the opportunity to touch him first. In this the ring drew the Watcher to the bearer, thus Frodo.

With the Balrog, the ring has drawn it out but it is not allowed to get close enough to the whole Fellowship to make an attempt on Frodo. Gandalf intervenes before the Balrog can attack any individual member of the Fellowship. I think, if the Balrog had the opportunity it would have gone for Frodo first.

Tyelkormo: Good point, Aragorn was drawn, but he was wise enough to know that he should avoid it. I think that is another difference between him and Boromir. Maybe, if he had continued travelling with Frodo he might have been more drawn? I highly doubt that though, because Faramir too said he would not take the Ring, even if he found it lying by the road. If he knew not to take the Ring, then surely Aragorn too could have resisted temptation. This is all speculation of course, but the Ring clearly had less impact on Aragorn than it did on Boromir, despite Aragorn spending more time around it. Aragorn even said if Strider wanted it, there was nothing stopping him from taking it from four hobbits, but he knew better than that. So obviously mind power has something to do with it, as well as intent.

Which brings me back to the Watcher. Its name itself implies it has a strong will and is a guardian of sorts, and then its intent is not good, allowing it to pursue the Ring. The Balrog is a different matter, although similar conditions apply.


----------

