# How did Aulë know about this?



## Arvedui (Feb 20, 2003)

There is one thing I have started to wonder about, concerning Aulë and his encounter with Ilúvatar after the creation of the Dwarves. Aulë excuses himself to Ilúvatar for what he has done, and during the conversation, he says this:


> Yet the making of things is in my heart from my own making by thee; and *the child of little understanding that makes a play of the deeds of his father may do so without thought of mockery, but because he is the son of his father* .


What could Aulë, at that time, know about children making plays of the deeds of their fathers? What references did he have?

Did the Professor miss a little by using this example in Aulë's defence?


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## Niniel (Feb 20, 2003)

Yeah, that's weird. Maybe he had seen it in the vision of ME that Ilúvatar had shown the Valar. Otherwise I don't know, since Aule had never seen any children.


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## Gothmog (Feb 20, 2003)

> *Yet the making of things is in my heart from my own making by thee*; and the child of little understanding that makes a play of the deeds of his father may do so without thought of mockery, but because he is the son of his father .


 So Aule knows he was made by and is a child of Iluvatar.


> There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Ilúvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, *that were the offspring of his thought*, and they were with him before aught else was made. And he spoke to them, propound to them themes of music; and they sang before him, and he was glad. But for a long while they sang only each alone, or but few together, while the rest hearkened; for each comprehended only that part of the mind of Ilúvatar from which he came, *and in the understanding of their brethren* they grew but slowly. Yet ever as they listened they came to deeper understanding, and increased in unison and harmony.


 AINULINDALË

The Ainur also were aware of having family ties. As to knowing about *Children* and "Children of Iluvatar" in particular.


> And they saw with amazement the coming of the Children of Ilúvatar, and the habitation that was prepared for them; and they perceived that they themselves in the labour of their music had been busy with the preparation of this dwelling, and yet knew not that it had any purpose beyond its own beauty.


 AINULINDALË

So I do not see any problem with Aule using such terms as all of the Ainur knew of the links between themselves and Iluvatar and of Elves and Men.


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## ChunkyLover53 (Feb 20, 2003)

i don't think that's what they're saying, Gothmog...

i think they find it weird to use the quote below as an excuse b/c it's a generalisation of what children would do, when he shouldn't know b/c he is basically one of the first children and therefore not a good example for his defense



> and the child of little understanding that makes a play of the deeds of his father may do so without thought of mockery, but because he is the son of his father .


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## Brent (Feb 21, 2003)

But he probably didn't say that, he probably said nothing, since both he and illuvatar are pure spirit. Its probably not possible to understand the interchange between the two in human terms so the story "humanises" the exchange.

My understanding is the works contained in the Sil. are collections of tales told amongst the elves concerning these events, many many years after the events - not all of which they witnessed. 
It isn't written by Illuvatar nor the Valar, its origin is Elvish save possibly for the account of the Downfall. 
Anyway as is common amongst the sagas and anglo-saxon chronicles the scribe would put in Aule's words based upon the events he's attempting to describe. The particular scene knocks it right on the head, BTW.

Or put another way, you can visualise the story as is - like a documentary film or you can visualise the story as being told by a narrator to an audience, a bit like Sir Thomas Mallory's Tales of King Arthur, long after the events take place.


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## ChunkyLover53 (Feb 21, 2003)

good point Brent...i agree with you on that, but IF that's what he really did say, if anything at all, it wouldn't make sense. So we can't blame JRR for this mistake, but rather the Elves who wrote this down, or passed it down through the generations.


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## Gothmog (Feb 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ChunkyLover53 _
> *i don't think that's what they're saying, Gothmog...
> 
> i think they find it weird to use the quote below as an excuse b/c it's a generalisation of what children would do, when he shouldn't know b/c he is basically one of the first children and therefore not a good example for his defense *



You missed the point of the third quote I used:


> And they saw with amazement the coming of the Children of Ilúvatar, and the habitation that was prepared for them; and they perceived that they themselves in the labour of their music had been busy with the preparation of this dwelling, and yet knew not that it had any purpose beyond its own beauty.


 Also from the Ainulindale. This shows that they had seen and knew of the Elves and Men. To continue with this point:


> But when the Ainur had beheld this habitation in a vision *and had seen the Children of Ilúvatar arise therein*, then many of the most mighty among them bent all their thought and their desire towards that place.


 So they could see and understand much of children from seeing Elves and Men. They knew much of the happenings of Arda from that vision.


> But even as Ulmo spoke, and while the Ainur were yet gazing upon this vision, it was taken away and hidden from their sight; and it seemed to them that in that moment they perceived a new thing, Darkness, which they had not known before except in thought. *But they had become enamoured of the beauty of the vision and engrossed in the unfolding of the World which came there to being, and their minds were filled with it*; for the history was incomplete and the circles of time not full-wrought when the vision was taken away. And some have said that the vision ceased ere the fulfilment of the Dominion of Men and the fading of the Firstborn; where fore, though the music is over all, the Valar have not seen as with sight the Later Ages of the ending of the World.


 So it is not so unlikely that while "Words" as we know them were not used the meaning could be exactly what was written down by the Elves from what they were told later by the Valar.


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## Celebithil (Mar 6, 2003)

*Agree*

I agree with Gothmog that not only does Aule qualify as a child of Eru so he is able to use that phrase but they did see much of the unfolding of the world.


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## Walter (Mar 8, 2003)

Indeed a very good question Arvedui put up here...

Somehow I have difficulties to think that Aulë knew enough of (humanoid) children and their behavior to make such a generalized statement. 

I'd rather second Arvedui's thought that it might have been a "slip of the feather" on the Prof's side, although it is - as Brent mentions - not at all unusual in Mythology that either the the narrators or the scribes use such comparisons taken from their own experiences.


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