# YayGollum Elf Question



## Confusticated (Jun 1, 2005)

Sometimes YayGollum asks why people love elves or what is so great about them. I figure why not start a thread for it?

What is so great about elves?

I'll open with my answer...

In summary: Above all I love elves because of their relationship with nature, and because they are excellent artists and generally a good people.


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## YayGollum (Jun 1, 2005)

YayGollum asks more questions than this, but sure, he enjoys getting serious answers to his serious questions which many believe are not serious. No offense, but do not all races have some sort of relationship with nature? Sure, I am guessing that you just happen to be a particular fan of the sort of relationship that the elves have with the thing. Give specifics. How is their relationship somehow better or more entertaining than plenty of other examples I could give? There are talented artists to be found in all races, too. But then again, perhaps you are just a fan of the elf type style of art. Ick. They get the most attention tossed at them in that field, I happen to believe. Not a very fair way for me to judge for myself, especially since I haven't actually seen any of this art.  That last bit that you wrote was the creepiest, though. Generally a good people? Why like them for that? *hides*


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## Hammersmith (Jun 1, 2005)

I like the purity that Tolkien tried to instill in his elves. However, I do find them to be arrogant, snooty and prone to acts of great evil or selfishness in LOTR.


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## YayGollum (Jun 1, 2005)

Truly? Hm. Because I always loved the purity of the Dwarves. Probably mostly because they aren't as popular, but oh well.  Why do so many forget the coolness of these characters with their stubbornity and reliability and honesty? Well, maybe there just wasn't enough written about them.


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## Hammersmith (Jun 2, 2005)

The purity of the...!!!!

Well I never! I seem to remember Thorin's little episode at the Lonely Mountain, his plotting and scheming to jilt all else of their rewards and prizes. Or how about that earlier escapade in which a party of dwarves *accidentally* massacred good king Thingol? Tut tut tut. Honesty? I think not, sir!


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## YayGollum (Jun 2, 2005)

Do what? You crazy, person. Thorin is one of the coolest characters around. What plotting as well as scheming to jilt all else of their rewards as well as prizes? I read about none of that. Where is it written that he decided to keep all of that treasure for himself and not divide it up as was promised? As to the boring as well as unintelligent Thingol elf getting killed, I don't remember that ever being painted as an accident. Also, he deserved it.


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## Ingwë (Jun 2, 2005)

_*What is so great about elves?*_
They are the firstborn, they live in Valinor, they have relation with the nature. They fight with the evil powers. They help the other peoples. They are the best race. 

*

*


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## YayGollum (Jun 2, 2005)

Ack! Terrifying! Creepy! Also, I disagree. Why does being the firstborn deserve praise? That title should go to Dwarves, by the way. Read that The Silmarillion book.  

Not all elves live in Valinor, and how is that a good reason to be a fan in the first place? Some of the Ainur types live there, too. Why aren't they your favorite? Craziness. 

I already asked a question about that relationship with nature thing. Did you miss it? 

Did you mean to write that they fight against the evil powers? That would make more sense to me, but you are correct, some of them did fight alongside the evil types. That is a good point. It shows that they aren't all the same and boring and too sickeningly perfect in every way. I am sure that you didn't mean that, though, and I am only making them look better in my mind, which is not the point of this thread.  oh well. 

How did they help the other peoples and what is so great about the elves doing it and not others doing it? They were not the only race to help others. Look at how great the Dwarves are at that.  The boring elves will all turn into tiny as well as mostly useless fairies, while Dwarves are always as cool and useful as they were at the beginning of time. Yay Dwarveses!


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## Ingwë (Jun 2, 2005)

> _*That title should go to Dwarves, by the way. Read that The Silmarillion book.  *_


 Maybe, but the Elves are called Firstborn.




> _*Not all elves live in Valinor, and how is that a good reason to be a fan in the first place? Some of the Ainur types live there, too. Why aren't they your favorite? Craziness.*_


 The Ainur are are created by Eru to control the world and first, of course, to create it. 




> *How did they help the other peoples and what is so great about the elves doing it and not others doing it? They were not the only race to help others. Look at how great the Dwarves are at that.  The boring elves will all turn into tiny as well as mostly useless fairies, while Dwarves are always as cool and useful as they were at the beginning of time. Yay Dwarveses!*


 Let me see. Ah, Elrond helped the Dúnedan, Aragorn, his mother. He took him in Rivendell. Yay Ingwë! Hahahahaha.


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## AraCelebEarwen (Jun 2, 2005)

Elves are not only some of the best hunters and fighters, but are able to walk without being heard, move without being seen and when asked a question will almost never really answer. 

And I do not really care if you like something else better, that just makes it more interesting. Myself, I like Elfs, Hobbits, Eagles, Ents... Tolkien did so much with all of the races that it is hard to not find something to like.


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## Thorondor_ (Jun 2, 2005)

Well, one reason for liking the elves would be their beauty - a hairy dwarf could hardly compare to an Elf Lord. We could say they have graceful majesty; one could also envy them for immortality


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## YayGollum (Jun 2, 2005)

Yes, the boring and achingly as well as sickeningly popular elf types are called the Firstborn, for some silly reason. I was merely reminding all that the title is pure evil and wrong. Anyways, Ingwe person, you never really answered my questions about things. Yes, I know what the Ainur are around for. Also, please excuse the way that I worded one of my questions. I was not looking for a couple of examples of how boring elves helped out anyone. But then, maybe you were tossing a couple of examples that you thought outweighed anything that I could come up with.   

To the AraCelebEarwen person ---> Why would you call a bunch of people with all of those attributes going for them your favorites? Is it not a bad thing to be sickeningly perfect in every way? Where is the fun in that, especially for me, the reader? Ick, I write. Ick. And sure, I wouldn't care what other people like, either. I merely ask because it truly confuses poor Smeagol. *sniff*

What is so great about possessing a few people's version of beauty? The personality of the characters is my reason for enjoying a story about them. Maybe I happen to be crazy, but oh well. The hairy Dwarf (what's wrong with hair?) easily trumps the elf lord when it comes to being a good conversationalist. Boring and sickeningly perfect as well as achingly flawless graceful majesty? *doubles over in pain from nauseation* Craziness. Point out the coolness in that. Also, immortality can't be very fun, in my opinion. Sure, you will have plenty of time to learn a lot of achingly cool stuffs, and more will always be showing up, but you will get bored. Also, also, the elves shrink. Very funny. They deserve it. *runs away*


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## Barliman Butterbur (Jun 2, 2005)

Nóm said:


> What is so great about elves?



The short answer: not much! The longer answer: after going through The Silmarillion I find them to be no better or worse than men. The main difference is that they are immortal, and have certain telephathic and magical abilities. Otherwise, they seem to run pretty much the same gamut of emotions and behavior, strengths and weaknesses as their mortal confreres.

Barley


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## YayGollum (Jun 2, 2005)

There we go! A much more thought out answer, it seems to me to be. But then, I must wait for answers to my later questions. Perhaps I can be changed. *shakes head stubbornly*


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## Hammersmith (Jun 2, 2005)

YayGollum said:


> What is so great about possessing a few people's version of beauty? The personality of the characters is my reason for enjoying a story about them. Maybe I happen to be crazy, but oh well. The hairy Dwarf (what's wrong with hair?) easily trumps the elf lord when it comes to being a good conversationalist. Boring and sickeningly perfect as well as achingly flawless graceful majesty? *doubles over in pain from nauseation* Craziness. Point out the coolness in that. Also, immortality can't be very fun, in my opinion. Sure, you will have plenty of time to learn a lot of achingly cool stuffs, and more will always be showing up, but you will get bored. Also, also, the elves shrink. Very funny. They deserve it. *runs away*


 
Ah, precious, the question was "what is so great about elves", which was explained through examples of noble deeds. Had the question been "what is so interesting about elves", you may have a point. And sure, you're more than entitled to highlight their shortcomings, but I think they balance them out with their good acts and noble qualities. It makes them boring in some instances, but good nonetheless.

And I shall smite anyone with a log who claims that there is something wrong with hair.


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## YayGollum (Jun 2, 2005)

I never claimed any craziness like that. It seemed like you were the one closest to committing that particular atrocity.  Anyways, I can see why you might think that I am wrong in twisting the greatness qualifier to and interesting one, but oh well. I do not define greatness as having anything at all to do with good acts and noble qualities. They happen to be a bunch of crazy characters in a story that I consider to be a form of entertainment. Interesting characters are the greatest. Boring and sickeningly perfect types are not worth wasting money on.


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## Hammersmith (Jun 2, 2005)

Then we agree.


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## YayGollum (Jun 3, 2005)

And sure, you're more than entitled to highlight their shortcomings, but I think they balance them out with their good acts and noble qualities. It makes them boring in some instances, but good nonetheless.

Well, that it a bit by you, which I do not agree with. It is full of craziness. You write that good acts and noble qualities balance out the fact that both of those things are boring? Makes no sense, person. Sickening perfection? Not fun to read about. Give me a eccentricity-ridden character who hates everyone and only sits in one place and rants for the entire novel!


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## Hammersmith (Jun 3, 2005)

Like Sam?

Why was that post too short to be accepted on its own???


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## Thorondor_ (Jun 3, 2005)

You keep calling the elves perfect. While I see many qualities in them (qualities towards which we aspire), they are hardly perfect; they experience doubt, treason, unrational behaviour (in or outside battles), they can lie, they can become evil, they can be tempted - and all these are true even for some of the best of them. 

In Tolkien's world, not even the Valar are perfect (well, at least their reason/wisdom isn't), let alone the elves. If there is anything boring or sickening about the elves, it sure isn't their perfection.


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## YayGollum (Jun 3, 2005)

Since when is the evil sam an eccentricity-ridden character who hates everyone and only sits in one place and rants for the entire novel? oh well. Some posts won't work if they are too small? That's cool. I did not know that. 

Anyways, please excuse my casual tossing about of ---> perfection. I meant that they are too sickeningly close to perfection for me. just like most of the Ainur types. Where was that list that someone made? oh well. There are all kinds of sickeningly close to perfection type things for these elf characters. Not cool. Doesn't make them interesting. Makes them unbeatable. Makes me feel sorry for the Orcs and things. oh well.


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## Hammersmith (Jun 3, 2005)

YayGollum said:


> Since when is the evil sam an eccentricity-ridden character who hates everyone and only sits in one place and rants for the entire novel? oh well.


 
Well from poor Smeagol's perspective...he is. The nassty fat little hobbit eats the elvish breadses, yes he does my love. Silly hobbit, gives him acheses in his stomachs. Cares too much for the nice hobbit, for the masster, precious, that he does. And eats burned foods, not nice squirmy raw mealses. Silly hobbit. Eccentric, precious? Oh yes. Follows us around, too, my love. But when it sits still, it doesn't like getting up. Too fat, my love, that it is. Just sits and stuffs its face. Tells the master how bad poor Smeagol is, rantses and whines through the whole silly book. But we'll get him, won't we precious?


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## YayGollum (Jun 3, 2005)

Garn! Do not twist logic in the way that I normally enjoy! Ick! Pure evil! Nasssty evil sam character! Making me cry. Poor Smeagol. Oh! *runs away*  Making me leave the main topic.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Jun 3, 2005)

YayGollum said:


> ...Give me a eccentricity-ridden character who hates everyone and only sits in one place and rants for the entire novel!



For the entire novel? That _would_ be boring because so predictable, yes precious, it would! 

(BTW YG, we have _great use_ for an eccentricity-ridden character who hates everyone over at PROJECT EVIL — click on the link in my sig!   )

Barley


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## Thorondor_ (Jun 4, 2005)

YayGollum said:


> Anyways, please excuse my casual tossing about of ---> perfection. I meant that they are too sickeningly close to perfection for me. just like most of the Ainur types. Where was that list that someone made? oh well. There are all kinds of sickeningly close to perfection type things for these elf characters. Not cool. Doesn't make them interesting. Makes them unbeatable. Makes me feel sorry for the Orcs and things. oh well.


 
I doubt the majority of the elves can be labeled as close to perfection as many of the them screw things up at one time or the other. You just can't stand them because they were so gifted compared to many others, right? For many of "us", the elves' qualities and deeds are "cool", but I believe that it is good that at least someone takes on the role of the devil's advocate


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## YayGollum (Jun 4, 2005)

How would an eccentricity-ridden character be boring and predictable? Have I outlined the eccentricities? No. They could be achingly cool as well as interesting. Also, I would not be of much use at that particular terrifying website thing. Am not an expert on the topics that matter over there. *hides* It would probably be fun, though.

As to the perfection bit ---> Sure, I guess I couldn't hate them as much if everyone was superly fast, agile, perceptive, creepily magical, and probably plenty of other things. I am not writing about how they think or act or anything like that. There are people like that to be found in pretty much every race, I would think. Also, yes, Yay for the devil's advocate types!


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## e.Blackstar (Jun 4, 2005)

> What's so great about elves?



They're pretty.  


Actually, I dunno. The only elves who I REALLY like are Elladan and Elrohir...and I think I would like them just as much if they were of the Edain.


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## YayGollum (Jun 5, 2005)

There we go! A great way of looking at it, e.Blackstar person! You should like characters for whatever reason you like these Elladan and Elrohir people. The pure evility and unfairness of their race shouldn't matter. Yay for personality, I am guessing! *hides* But why enjoy an entire race for their looks? Craziness. *runs away*


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## Thorondor_ (Jun 5, 2005)

Pure evilness? Unfair? Hehe, now that's what I call entertainment. You are outdoing your evilish role


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## Alatar (Jun 5, 2005)

Most elves i respect as of their supior skills.
The ones I like (Fingolfin) is if they did somthing espeicly good(ie cut of the foot of Morgoth) or if they are espeicly good at somthing(like Beleg).
The ones i dislike (C,C&C of the sons of feanor, and Eol) if the act evil, as in trying to kill your son so he won't leave you for his Mum(thats Farthers for justice  ).


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## YayGollum (Jun 5, 2005)

Respect does at least sound better than ---> Wow, they are so achingly cool as well as muchly entertaining and original for their superior skills! Because all of that is wrong. Please forgive me for merely looking at this from an entertainment point of view. I hope that you people understand my reasoning. I have the ability to understand why you like and hate the characters that you do, Alatar person, but still. Ick. 

I guess that some people are just fans of the norm. Fingolfin, in my crazy opinion, was pretty brave and honest and sickeningly selfless, but didn't have much of an interesting personality. Beleg was evil to poor Mim, one of my favorites, so I can't like him. Especially because he was so sickeningly perfect at what he did. 

Also, I am a fan of Eol. Poor guy. Very anti-social. Tolkien bashes him in the head with his Thingol, Melian, Beren, Luthien, Aragorn, Arwen deal, and he is still a bit awkward. He gets a son, tries to help the guy out, but the guy is composed primarily of large gobs of pure evil and persuades the mom to leave with him. Eol just didn't want to see his son in the hands of the evil type of elf who he especially as well as justly despised. I doubt that he was trying to be evil about it. It was a large tragedy.


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## Alatar (Jun 5, 2005)

YayGollum said:


> Also, I am a fan of Eol. Poor guy. Very anti-social. Tolkien bashes him in the head with his Thingol, Melian, Beren, Luthien, Aragorn, Arwen deal, and he is still a bit awkward. He gets a son, tries to help the guy out, but the guy is composed primarily of large gobs of pure evil and persuades the mom to leave with him. Eol just didn't want to see his son in the hands of the evil type of elf who he especially as well as justly despised. I doubt that he was trying to be evil about it. It was a large tragedy.


Hey you like him, I don't, but i have given my reasons and you have given yours so...
Anyway I am of the opion that Finwe should have been strangled at awakening... I have nothing agaist him but if he had died than a whole lot of evil would not have happend.


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## YayGollum (Jun 5, 2005)

Hm. Wasn't Finwe the father of one of the coolest elves of all time? And I hardly ever call an elf cool! Feanor, wasn't it? Yay for Feanor! Now there is personality! I never was much of a fan of the Finwe character, though. No personality in sight. oh well. Anyways, my reasons for not hating the Eol character could not sway you to look at the guy again? His act was just far too mind-numbingly evil for you to look at it twice?


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## Thorondor_ (Jun 5, 2005)

Blame the father for the sins of the sons? I don't see that as very reasonable. Why didn't you reffer to Feanor, most evil things done by the noldor relate to him, not to his father.


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## Alatar (Jun 5, 2005)

If finwe died, then the WotJ would not have happend, thats all i'm saying.
Yaygollum, i might reconsider Eol next time i read the Sil, you may have converted me.Though I respect feanor i do not like him, he was clever, strong,brave and gifted, But he was arogent and proud and jealous.


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## YayGollum (Jun 5, 2005)

Got it. Arrogance is a bit evil sounding as well as extreme for me, though. I prefer to call him self-confident. Also, what is evil about being proud about things? Maybe if you're unjustly proud, but then you're just unintelligent. oh well. When was he ever jealous? Anyways, more to the Thorondor_ person ---> No evils were done by Feanor, at least according to my way of thinking. I think that I defended the guy pretty recently in some other thread. Can't remember where it is, though, but I can explain away anything that he did.


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## Alatar (Jun 5, 2005)

he was jealous of he brother, though arogence is aparently in the eye of the beholder, yeh?


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## YayGollum (Jun 5, 2005)

Yes, I guess that it is. *sigh* Poor superly talented as well as achingly interesting and strong-willed types. Always called arrogant. I know how that is. *bawls* Jealous of his brother. Hm. Okay. Probably. Why should I be expected to remember every random elf character? Most were boring. *runs away*


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## Alatar (Jun 5, 2005)

*sigh* Poor superly talented as well as achingly interesting and strong-willed types. Always called arrogant, when they slaughter and steal the boats of there freinds.


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## YayGollum (Jun 6, 2005)

Oh, is that a time when you thought that he was being arrogant? Because I always thought that he was being loyal and honest and things. He was the biggest fan of a father that any son has ever had, he promised to save the day, and the Teleri types (who I don't see that they were his friends at any time before) got in his way. He asked them nicely for the boats in the first place. They were unintelligent.


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## Alatar (Jun 6, 2005)

I still think that if lets say you needed a car, so you asked the owner very nicely, then when they said no, kill the and steal the boats?


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## YayGollum (Jun 6, 2005)

Hmph. You didn't toss all of the specifics at me in your example with the car stealing. I have all of the specifics for why the Feanor character took boats. I'd say that he had a pretty good reason. I would also very emphatically say that those Teleri could have been a bit more perceptive and wise about the situation. If some dude who you have always thought of as a bit eccentric and impulsive suddenly shows up with an army of superly loyal and passionate and suddenly armed elves and asks you to hand over your boats, you should think twice before you turn your nose up at him.


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## Alatar (Jun 7, 2005)

> If some dude who you have always thought of as a bit eccentric and impulsive suddenly shows up with an army of superly loyal and passionate and suddenly armed elves and asks you to hand over your boats, you should think twice before you turn your nose up at him.



They will think twice next time.

But You are right i did not say all the facts. but still how about,lets say you needed a car to catch your fathers murderer who was getting away, so you asked the owner very nicely, then when they said no, kill the and steal the cars? A bit extreeme but maybe able to be forgiven.


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