# Why didn't the Istari fight with Sauron?



## Pippin (Apr 18, 2002)

*Istari and Maiar*

There`s one point i can`t get clear. If Galdalf is a Maia as Suron, why didn`t he figth with him. Afterall there are similar in power. Isn`t that rigth?


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## Beleg Strongbow (Apr 18, 2002)

*Re: Istari and Maiar*

No. Gandalf for starters wasn't allowed to fight him. The Istari weren't allowed to do it. Gandalf wasn't dstrong or powerful enough to fight Sauron. The only thing he could beat him in was being wise. Sauron would have destroyed Gandalf. Sauron along with Eonwe, Osse are the strongest of the maia. The only people that could fight sauron and win would be Eonwe and Osse and the vala. Mayb some special elves like Fingolfin and some menm like Turin. But he was a lot stronger and as Gandalf said he doesn't think he was ready or if he ever would be to confront Sauron in the palantir. The Istari weren't allowed by the vala to work in that way they couldbn't dominate others. He beat sauron with his mind. He was wiser then him and thats what brought his downfall.


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## Gil-Galad (Apr 19, 2002)

Valar choose five Mayar to go to ME.They musn't oppose Sauron with power.They have to help people and elves to win.I think the idea was that Mayar were sent to help people to live live in their own.So Gandalf had to take a human body and become a part of all creatures of ME.


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## Anamatar IV (Apr 19, 2002)

except i think sauron was one of those maiar.


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## Legolam (Apr 19, 2002)

Ah, I get what you're saying now. No, Sauron wasn't one of them. Their names were Curunir (Saruman), Olorin (Gandalf), Radagast, Pallando and Alatar. They were there to sort out the mess that Sauron had made but, like Beleg said, couldn't use direct force against him.


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## Anamatar IV (Apr 19, 2002)

why was sauron sent over then?


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## Camille (Apr 19, 2002)

Sauron was one the maiar that melkor had called to the dark side (oops Star wars...) anyway Sauron had been in ME since first age, no one send him he was there looking to destroy the elves, men, dwarves, everything


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## Úlairi (Apr 19, 2002)

Here is a passage from UT:



> "For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of the earth, able to hunger and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years. And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errrors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed; whereas now their emissaries *were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek and rule the wills of Men or Elves by open display of power*, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to do good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt."



So, in order for the _Istari_ to defeat Sauron they would need to display themselves in forms of majesty, which they were forbidden to do. Here is another passage from UT:



> "It was afterwards said that they came out of the Far West and were messengers sent to contest the power of Sauron, and to unite all those who had the will to resist him; *but they were forbidden to match his power with power, or to seek to dominate Elves and Men by force and fear.*"



So there you have it. The _Istari_ could not match Sauron's power with power. All they could do was rally and unite the people's of Middle-earth to stop Sauron, they could not do it themselves.


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## Úlairi (Apr 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Legolam _
> *Ah, I get what you're saying now. No, Sauron wasn't one of them. Their names were Curunir (Saruman), Olorin (Gandalf), Radagast, Pallando and Alatar. They were there to sort out the mess that Sauron had made but, like Beleg said, couldn't use direct force against him. *



Pallando and Alatar also had other names. Morinehtar (Darkness-Slayer) and Romestamo (East-Helper) according to 'The Peoples of Middle-earth'. The twelfth volume of 'The History of Middle-earth'.


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## Pippin (Apr 20, 2002)

I understand Istari origins are sais in UT. I need some advice here, should I read UT at last after the whole ME stories, or there is no problem giving the books not order at all.


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## Beleg Strongbow (Apr 20, 2002)

I would read it. It is great.


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## Mormegil (Apr 20, 2002)

I would definately read UT if you want to know more about the Istari. And then read PoME, it contains a little bit more information.


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## Úlairi (Apr 21, 2002)

Yes, Mormegil and I had a little debate over that!


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## Grond (Apr 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Pippin _
> *I understand Istari origins are sais in UT. I need some advice here, should I read UT at last after the whole ME stories, or there is no problem giving the books not order at all. *


I would read the Silmarillion first, then the Unfinished Tales and then start with HoMe but do them backwards. Start with Volume 12, The Peoples of Middle-earth and work your way backwards.


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## Úlairi (Apr 21, 2002)

Why did you read it backwards Grond? I read it forwards!


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## Beleg Strongbow (Apr 21, 2002)

Yes i would like to know 2.


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## Úlairi (Apr 21, 2002)

Have you read HoME Beleg?


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## Beleg Strongbow (Apr 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *Have you read HoME Beleg? *





Nope.


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## Úlairi (Apr 21, 2002)

Who here has read them?


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## Beleg Strongbow (Apr 21, 2002)

I'm not sure if that many ppls have.


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## Úlairi (Apr 21, 2002)

As far as I know only Grond and I have read them.


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## Grond (Apr 21, 2002)

Ulari, Lost Tales 1 and 2 were hard reads for me because the Mythology was so different from what I was used to in the other works. I found the Peoples of Middle-earth, The War of the Jewels going backwards allowed me to adjust to the different setings more easily.


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## Mormegil (Apr 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Grond _
> *Ulari, Lost Tales 1 and 2 were hard reads for me because the Mythology was so different from what I was used to in the other works. I found the Peoples of Middle-earth, The War of the Jewels going backwards allowed me to adjust to the different setings more easily. *



I completely agree with this. I have read HoME, and the easiest of them to read was definately PoME. Because It deals primarily with LOTR and its appendices. It also prepares you for the different style that HoME is written in.
The first HoME book I bought was #1 The Book of Lost Tales, but after about 5 pages I couldn't read any more. It is quite tiresome to read as it is completely different from anything else Tolkien wrote.
So, I bought PoME and I loved it. Then I read volumes 6,7,8 & 9, the ones concerning LOTR. Then I read the others before going back to Volumes 1 & 2.


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## Úlairi (Apr 24, 2002)

Hmmmm, perhaps I should have done that Grond, it may have been easier!


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## Bucky (Apr 24, 2002)

Yeah, Lost Tales lost me about 5 pages in too.

So, I quit there.

Maybe I'll check out #12.......


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## Úlairi (Apr 24, 2002)

I'm still trying to get myself a copy of _The Letters of J.R.R Tolkien_, but I cannot find one anywhere!


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## Bucky (Apr 24, 2002)

I got my copy by borrowing it from somebody like Hugo Bracegirdle used to do.

I think it was Hugo who got the empty bookcase from Bilbo.......


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## Úlairi (Apr 24, 2002)

Good one Bucky. Yes, I think I can relate to Hugo and perhaps I should follow his example! LOL!


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## Grond (Apr 24, 2002)

Ulari, if you shop in the U. S., you can buy The Letters of J. R. R. T. here. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/102-4464414-5259310

If you shop in the U. K., you can buy The Letters of J. R. R. T. here. http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/026-0188661-6431664


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## Úlairi (Apr 24, 2002)

Thankyou kindly for the links Grond! But I live in Australia, the land down-under!


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## Beleg Strongbow (Apr 25, 2002)

Yes there isn't as much stuff in Australia.


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## Grond (Apr 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *Thankyou kindly for the links Grond! But I live in Australia, the land down-under! *


If you have a mailing address and can get your mom's credit card, she can order the books for you from either source. They ship internationally as I get all my Tolkien books from the U. K. instead of the U. S. (where I live) so they'll be more authentic. I have found over past years that Houghton-Mifflin doesn't pay the same attention to detail that Allen-Unwin (now merged with Harper-Collins) does.


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## Úlairi (Apr 26, 2002)

Yes, but unforuantely my mother doesn't use credit cards very often, I believe that she may be somewhat afraid of 'plastic money'.


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## Lantarion (Apr 26, 2002)

*Re: Re: Istari and Maiar*



> _Originally posted by Beleg Strongbow _
> *No. Gandalf for starters wasn't allowed to fight him. The Istari weren't allowed to do it. Gandalf wasn't dstrong or powerful enough to fight Sauron. The only thing he could beat him in was being wise. Sauron would have destroyed Gandalf. Sauron along with Eonwe, Osse are the strongest of the maia. The only people that could fight sauron and win would be Eonwe and Osse and the vala. Mayb some special elves like Fingolfin and some menm like Turin. But he was a lot stronger and as Gandalf said he doesn't think he was ready or if he ever would be to confront Sauron in the palantir. The Istari weren't allowed by the vala to work in that way they couldbn't dominate others. He beat sauron with his mind. He was wiser then him and thats what brought his downfall. *


I think when he was resurrected in greater power and stronger form Gandalf was powerful enough to oppose Sauron, but as has already been said he was not allowed to (and I don't think he would have anyway - it wasn't just his battle to fight, but that of all the inhabitants of Middle-Earth).


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## Úlairi (Apr 26, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Istari and Maiar*



> _Originally posted by Pontifex _
> *
> I think when he was resurrected in greater power and stronger form Gandalf was powerful enough to oppose Sauron, but as has already been said he was not allowed to (and I don't think he would have anyway - it wasn't just his battle to fight, but that of all the inhabitants of Middle-Earth). *



Gandalf the Grey or Gandalf the White, it doesn't matter. Gandalf the *White* said this to Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas when they found him:



> "'Dangerous!' cried Gandalf. 'And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, *unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord.*'"



Not enough evidence for you Pontifex? Well, Gandalf the *White* says again on the same page:



> "'I am Gandalf, Gandalf the *White*, *but Black is mightier still*.'"



Gandalf admits twice that Sauron is more powerful than him. If you still do not think that that is enough evidence then here is a quote from UT:



> "Manwe replied that he wished *Olorin* to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth. But Olorin declared that *he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron*."



Even as Olorin (Gandalf in his most powerful form), Gandalf was afraid of Sauron and admitted he was too weak to stand up to him.

Well, there you have it Pontifex, in black and white, as plain as the nose on your face. Neither Olorin, Gandalf the Grey or Gandalf the White could face the power and might of Sauron.


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## Sengir Buendia (Jan 26, 2004)

*Come on!*

Come on!!
Sure he could! Hadn't a man done it? People here seem to conjecture inexistent confrontations and judge the winner by their hierarchy of "power". This doesn't exist. So Bombadil would defeat Saruman in battle bacause he was a higher Ainu and Saruman was the 2º most powerful Maia? Also, this theory shows its lack of sense when one faces the "battle" between Witch King and Merry/Eowyn. What could the mighty king do if he was stabbed from behind? What could Sauron do if he could never expect that sudden strike of Anduril (?), besides he was blind in hate to care for his defense at the moment...

What I mean is that this hierarchy can't be taken as a predictor of who's the winner. It depends 100% on the circumstances of the confront (ah! what about Saruman and Wormtongue? A Maia slayed by a scumbag). So, Gandalf could have defeated Sauron if they met in battle or elsewhere, just as Gollum or Frodo could (didn't they, after all?)


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## Arvedui (Jan 27, 2004)

Exept for one thing: The Istari were not supposed to confront Sauron directly. Their task was to help the free Peoples of Middle-earth, or to be more specific: Men to overcome Sauron by themselves. 

This because the time of Elves were ending, the Ainur were withdrawing from Earth, and Men were about to take over the rule on Earth as Eru had designed. To be able to rule with confidence, it was important that they had accomplished something really worthwhile first, thus enabling them to believe that they were in fact able to take care of whatever might come, without always having to rely on the Ainur to help them out. And what better feat could accomplish this, that to bring about the destruction of the greatest possible evil?

Just my thoughts on the matter...


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## Flammifer (Jan 28, 2004)

You are, of course, right Arvedui! Indeed you've summed up Eru's intention for the Dominion of Men outstandingly! But it seems that this thread has strayed from the original question of "why didn't Gandalf take on Sauron?" to the question of "could Gandalf take on Sauron and succeed?".


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