# Is the Andreth prophecy canon?



## Aragorn II Elessar (Jun 25, 2021)

As you all know, Turin fights in the war of wrath in the prophecy of Andreth. But is this prophecy canon? Is this prophecy really included in the story?


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## Elthir (Jun 25, 2021)

Depends upon one's definition of canon.

Is the story of the War of Wrath canon? It's basically pre-Lord of the Rings, never published by Tolkien himself, and more generally speaking, JRRT never truly updated** *the end of _Quenta Silmarillion_, which includes the War of Wrath.

***He did make some later corrections to the end of QS, concerning which (Christopher Tolkien warns) 
do *not* necessarily amount to any sort of final approval of content, however.


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## Aragorn II Elessar (Jun 25, 2021)

Elthir said:


> Depends upon one's definition of canon.
> 
> Is the story of the War of Wrath canon? It's basically pre-Lord of the Rings, never published by Tolkien himself, and more generally speaking, JRRT never truly updated** *the end of _Quenta Silmarillion_, which includes the War of Wrath.
> 
> ...


Can we infer that turin both fought in the war of wrath and killed melkor in dagor dagorath?


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## Elthir (Jun 25, 2021)

I think I basically answered that here, though others can give their opinions of course.

Did turin fight war of wrath? | 🧙 The Tolkien Forum 🧝

That much said . . . in the following description, some of the wording could arguably suggest Turin was not to take part in an End of Days scenario . . . but then again, if that scenario is a Mannish Myth, Turin seems a likely candidate in any case: thus my *Maybe Who Knows* in the linked thread.

*Christopher Tolkien* writes:

"In this last reappearance of the mysterious and fluctuating idea the prophecy is put into the mouth of Andreth, the Wise-woman of the House of Beor: *Turin will "return from the Dead" before his final departure, and his last deed within the Circles of the World will be the slaying of the Great Dragon, Ancalagon the Black. *

"Andreth prophesies of the Last Battle at the end of the Elder Days (the sense in which the term 'Last Battle' is used shortly after-wards in this text, p. 371); but in all the early texts (the Quenta, IV.160; the Annals of Beleriand, IV.309, V.144; the Quenta Silmarillion, V.329) it was Earendil who destroyed Ancalagon.] "

Christopher Tolkien, HoME XII, The Problem of Ros


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jun 25, 2021)

Elthir said:


> others can give their opinions of course.


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## Elthir (Jun 25, 2021)

I can also give a different description as a response 

Some might say this note to *The Problem Of Ros* is just a later musing, and in earlier texts it was Earendil who slew Ancalagon, as Christopher Tolkien notes above (I edited this into my earlier post above, and into the linked thread too).

And so there's no version of the "story" of the War of Wrath -- as it appears in versions of Quenta Silmarillion or the Annals of Beleriand -- in which Túrin slays Ancalagon.


🐾


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## m4r35n357 (Jun 26, 2021)

Canon? Surely we are not _expecting_ a human prophecy to be correct? 

Personally I can accept a as canon anything that does not contradict the _existing_ "canon" . . . whatever that might be. I _think_ the Andreth story is compatible with the published Silmarillion, but I really need to re-read it!


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## Elthir (Jun 26, 2021)

If we assume Andreth's prophecy "must" come true, it contradicts the constructed Silmarillion wherein Earendil slays Ancalagon. But that said (and not that anyone said otherwise), this source was never an attempt to provide a definitive canon (that I'm aware of).

Of course it became "canon by default" for some years, before the publication of (many of) the texts written by JRRT himself.

🐾


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## Alcuin (Jun 26, 2021)

If you adhere to the strict definition of “canon,” then Andreth’s prophecy cannot be “canon”: it was published after JRRT’s death. The strict definition of canon would be, _Canon is what JRR Tolkien published himself during his lifetime._ Though he did not use the word _canon_, Christopher Tolkien himself used that definition to describe his father’s late writings concerning Galadriel that contradicted things he had published in _Lord of the Rings_.


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## Aragorn II Elessar (Jun 26, 2021)

Alcuin said:


> If you adhere to the strict definition of “canon,” then Andreth’s prophecy cannot be “canon”: it was published after JRRT’s death. The strict definition of canon would be, _Canon is what JRR Tolkien published himself during his lifetime._ Though he did not use the word _canon_, Christopher Tolkien himself used that definition to describe his father’s late writings concerning Galadriel that contradicted things he had published in _Lord of the Rings_.


If you look at it, many middle-earth books were published after Tolkien's death. Are they also not canon?


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## Elthir (Jun 26, 2021)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> If you look at it, many middle-earth books were published after Tolkien's death. Are they also not canon?



I can't answer for *Alcuin*, but in my opinion: no they are not.

Or to put it another way: for example, if Andreth's prophecy appeared in a footnote to _Appendix A, The Return of the King_, my first response in this thread would have simply read: *yes*.

🐾


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## Alcuin (Jun 26, 2021)

Elthir said:


> I can't answer for *Alcuin*, but in my opinion: no they are not.
> 
> Or to put it another way: for example, if Andreth's prophecy appeared in a footnote to _Appendix A, The Return of the King_, my first response in this thread would have simply read: *yes*.
> 
> 🐾


I concur with Elthir, and I agree with the example he gives.


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## Aragorn II Elessar (Jun 29, 2021)

Elthir said:


> I can't answer for *Alcuin*, but in my opinion: no they are not.
> 
> Or to put it another way: for example, if Andreth's prophecy appeared in a footnote to _Appendix A, The Return of the King_, my first response in this thread would have simply read: *yes*.
> 
> 🐾


All of the books published after Tolkien's death were written and published by his son, Christopher. Even if the author of these books is Tolkien's son, is it not canon? I do not understand.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jun 29, 2021)

The problem is that these writings were left unfinished -- in various senses of the term. Many of them contradict others, some contradicting even Tolkien-_published _material, as said earlier. 

One question that immediately arises is, how do you decide, among these contradictory statements, which is to be considered "canon"?


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## Olorgando (Jun 29, 2021)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> All of the books published after Tolkien's death were written and published by his son, Christopher. Even if the author of these books is Tolkien's son, is it not canon? I do not understand.


Much of what is to be found in the books published by Christopher Tolkien as *editor*, not author, after his father's death was written by JRRT over a time period of over 55 years. What Christopher himself wrote in these books was a *commentary* about these writings of his father's. Which often contained variant version of stories for The Silmarillion, I believe as many as eight of "Beren and Lúthien", in verse and in prose, of varying lengths and completeness - and contradicting one another at times. What is common to them all is that they were never approved for publication by JRRT himself - because the material never reached such a state of readiness. The published Silmarillion was constructed by Christopher, with the help of Guy Gavriel Kay, from writings of quite different times of composition, spanning decades. It is a best guess at what a Silmarillion approved by JRRT might have looked like. But Christopher, in the 13 years he spent writing the History of Middle-earth, often stated in these books that he might have decided differently about one or another aspect of the 1977 Silmarillion if he had know what he discovered in his father's papers only during the time from before 1983 and 1996 while writing HoMe. The original material written by JRRT is simply too divergent, even contradictory, be be considered canon.


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## Elthir (Jul 1, 2021)

In answer to *Ecthelion*, I'll add that not everyone agrees about what constitutes Tolkien canon . . .
but that said, over the years I've found a common thread within various opinions > that almost everyone agrees that author-published text is canon.

Sooooo 

I say almost everyone because I've found some "holdouts" with respect to _The Hobbit --_ but even Tolkien himself (and in Tolkien-published work), accepts _The Hobbi_t as canon, including the First
Edition > in other words, he characterizes it as an _internal_ text (in some form), if not entirely truthful.

I once spoke with a person who claimed that RGEO represents Tolkien-as-author, and thus not canon (invoking the "Death of Author" idea) -- versus Tolkien-as-translator, an "in-story" (internal) role with respect to the legendarium. But I find no evidence of this in RGEO, and the person didn't give a specific example from RGEO in support of this claim.

An example of an _external_ text (Tolkien speaking as author) is the Second Edition Foreword to _The Lord_ _of the Rings_, which actually I do not consider canon -- the First Edition Foreword is Tolkien as translator however, and much more fitting in my opinion.



Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> The problem is that these writings were left unfinished -- in various senses of the term. Many of them contradict others, some contradicting even Tolkien-_published _material, as said earlier. One question that immediately arises is, how do you decide, among these contradictory statements, which is to be considered "canon"?



For me, posthumously published description (early or late) that contradicts Tolkien-published material is out.

My next item is *late/later* material: _without_ the act of "submitted for publication", to my mind, _the best we can do_ to _*try* _and determine what Tolkien intended, is give weight to late/later material. Christopher Tolkien goes to great length to try and date material, as it's only natural -- in the process of writing (and with respect to "the arrow of time") -- that revisions/changes of mind come after earlier ideas.

And as I see it, Christopher Tolkien used these guidelines to construct the 1977 Silmarillion:* 

A)* try not to contradict author-published work

*B)* try to incorporate Tolkien's latest idea about something

But the problem with* B*, as far as the constructed Silmarillion is concerned, is that doing so might also require Christopher Tolkien to overstep the bounds of the "editorial hand" -- a self-imposed (but understandable) boundary, forcing him to sometimes ignore later ideas.

And he's been criticized here for being *both too conservative and not conservative enough*! And it didn't help that he was (as he admits), not entirely consistent, especially concerning his handling of _The Fall of Doriath_, which he later regretted.

That said, *we/I* are/am not Christopher Tolkien and can thus imagine, and post about, for example,
Túrin wearing the Dragonhelm against Glaurung, which is a revision to the earlier Dwarf mask idea, despite that Christopher Tolkien went with the Dwarf mask due to not wanting to be "too much" of a writer here, as opposed to an editor.

Again I'm not under such constraints when constructing my Elder Days, and see no great reason to incorporate a rejected idea. The Dragonhelm against Glaurung is thus *true* in my opinion.

*trueness and canon*

Here's how I put it: for example, it's true that there's an internal text -- a text that exists in the Sub-created World of Middle-earth -- that gives an untrue account of how Bilbo acquired the One Ring.

So canon, while often answering the question "is it true?" need not always be about truth, despite 
that a given matter in question might hail from an in-story text. See also _The Adventures of Tom Bombadil_, which, at least arguably includes some Hobbit fancy/imagination, despite being an internal document according to Tolkien's conceit as translator.

An example from posthumously published texts is the Elessar text (unfinished Tales), which provides two variant in-story tales about the jool or jools. Which one is true? Here Tolkien purposely provides contradictory traditions *within* the world of Middle-earth.

 🐾


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## Olorgando (Jul 1, 2021)

Elthir said:


> An example from posthumously published texts is the Elessar text (unfinished Tales), which provides two variant in-story tales about the jool or jools. Which one is true? Here Tolkien purposely provides contradictory traditions *within* the world of Middle-earth.


An example from the "real world" (as far as can be told).
I have a fat paperback (686 pages) by one Stephen Clarke, entitled "1000 years of Annoying the French" from 2010. By a British author who lived in Paris, France. He starts his historical retrospective back in 1066 when Billy the b.....orn-out-of-wedlock of Normandy started the whole mess by meddling in Anglo-Saxon affairs on the island west of his native territory.

A point that Clarke makes is that if you compare English and French school history textbooks where they deal with, say the century from 1750 to 1850 (earlier periods, too. After 1850 the French became distracted from their historical prime enemy by first the Prussians, the Germany) things get confusing.

There were following undisputed historical occurrences:

1756–1763 the Seven Years War (starting two years earlier west of the Atlantic, and there known in the later US as the French and Indian War).
1775-1783 the War for Independence of the 13 British colonies, where the French helped the rebelling colonies.
The Napoleonic Wars up to 1815.

Clarke notes that if you compare the English and French school history textbooks about this time, you would be unable to come to the conclusion that they're describing the same time period. There are endless examples from "real history" where sources contradict one another.
So couldn't all of the contradictions in JRRT's half-century of writing be seen as making his writing *more* realistic?


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## Elthir (Jul 1, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> So couldn't all of the contradictions in JRRT's half-century of writing be seen as making his writing *more* realistic?



Some folks seem to take this path, but it's a huge *not-path* for me 

The sheer *amount of variations* (if you really dive in here), both large and small, aside for a moment!



> * “To make a Secondary World . . . commanding Secondary Belief will probably require labour and thought, and will certainly demand a special skill, a kind of Elvish Craft. Few attempt such difficult tasks. But when they are attempted and in any degree accomplished then we have a rare achievement of Art, indeed narrative story, story making in its primary and most potent mode”*





> [and then we have *“the inner consistency of reality"* too. The author ]*“makes a Secondary World which your mind can enter. Inside it, what he relates is 'true': it accords with the laws of that world. . . . The moment disbelief arises, the spell is broken; the magic, or rather art, has failed."*




Quotes from JRRT, On Fairy Stories

Tolkien is the artist/storyteller/subcreator of Middle-earth, and when he makes a choice to introduce an inconsistency or ambiguity, that is part of the art of subcreation, and he'll think about whether "inconsistency X or Y" makes sense to him as something that could be garbled internally -- and thus,
if it passes that test, it will not (or in his opinion, should not) undermine the Subcreated World and potentially *break the spell.*

In my opinion, a "willy nilly" smashing together or what are essentially expected contradictions in the natural process of imagination/writing (especially over such a large span of time), isn't art. And Tolkien surely didn't intend this, and I think he'd be "unchuffed" to see it happening.

For a _small_ (but perhaps expected from me) example: the in-story "mistake" of Galadriel's name being mixed up by folks who didn't know better, confusing *Galadriel *with *Galadhriel *-- is brilliant and Tolkieny, and makes sense in my opinion -- as in, one can see how that could happen.

A larger example of purposed, considered contradictions: _The Drowning of Anadûnê_ versus _The Akallabêth_.

Tolkien was concerned, as an artist, to inject considered contradictions to help reflect the Primary World -- that is, a *measure of contradiction* (salt) *within a cauldron of consistency* (soup).

But too much salt . . .

The Tale of Nalindo The Panther Elf

a part of it anyway and arguably unnecessary in any case

If in one sentence the handsome Panther Elf Nalindo is wearing a grey cloak, and in the next sentence he's wearing a bright green cloak: right away my Reader might be on a potential path that I, as author, don't want . . .

. . . looking like I made a mistake! I can either revise one or the other colour, for consistency, or maybe explain, within my Secondary World, that Nalindo wears a cloak that changes colour when he wills it.

So, if so, I then want the Reader to believe this is true, and thus this could be something to keep in mind as the story progresses -- or something to "watch out for" too, like avoiding something like this (from a potential reader): "Hey Elthir, In that chapter where Nalindo was in deep trouble and trying to hide in a pine forest, why didn't his cloak, red at the time, change to green?

So maybe I just change the colours to match! The cloak was/is always "pine" green. And I can do so *without* potentially undermining my Secondary World, *if* the tale is not in bookstores yet. 

With Tolkien, we are privileged to see plenty of stuff that never made it, from his perspective, into bookstores . . .

. . . and as the author of the newly popular _Tale of Nalindo_ (or Tale of "Galin" in a related Panther Elf language), why in_ Iluvotir's_ green earth (the name for my god in the story) would I want my external revision of grey to bright green to "pine green" to be seen as _internal_ inconsistencies?

It wasn't art, and I rejected the colour changing thing as well (and does this too become a variant internal version if someone finds certain descriptions in a pile of abandoned texts). Moreover, I don't want to upset the measure of purposed inconsistencies that as author, I deem to make sense for X reason.

And that's just a* very limited number* of arguably minor examples from the invisible book that I started today!

By the way, if interested, please send me 100 pieces of money to purchase _The Tale of Nalindo_, which I just decided should rather be titled _The Tale of Indo _(or Ando).

🐾


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## m4r35n357 (Jul 2, 2021)

As I have suggested before, "canon" is about self-consistency as much as anything else.

I am keen on the pre-LotR "canon" (the Later Annals, Ainulindale 1, Ambarkanta, Lhammas, and the second Silmarillion map, all supporting the incomplete Quenta Silmarillion, filled in using the Quenta Noldorinwa). Nice features of this include:

Simpler creation myth (allowing the genius move of Melko's pillars of ice for the lamps!)
Sub-creation of the Orcs & Dwarves (optionally Eagles etc . . .) is _much_ simpler and less fraught that it became later.
More detail for the War of Wrath 
I have also attempted to "complete" the Grey Annals, using the final parts of either the Quenta or the Later Annals (in line with the Tale of Years). Not quite as interesting as it is not as different to the published version.

My point: canon can change with (the Author's) time. Different "traditions" can good if they have some "organizing principle", rather than just being a pick'n'mix of unpublished snippets and extracts from private communication.


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## Olorgando (Jul 2, 2021)

Elthir said:


> By the way, if interested, please send me 100 pieces of money to purchase _The Tale of Nalindo_, which I just decided should rather be titled _The Tale of Indo _(or Ando).
> 🐾


You neglect to mention the currency. Might the "piece of money" you refer to mean the Eurindo Cent? 😜


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jul 2, 2021)

Or thomething elth? 🤔


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## Olorgando (Jul 2, 2021)

m4r35n357 said:


> As I have suggested before, "canon" is about self-consistency as much as anything else.


Which self-consistency can very well reside in the eye of the beholder. Another version of applicability, I would suggest.

One aspect of this eye of the beholder - before PJ (_pace_ Ralph Bakshi and others of the era) - is that every reader probably had a different Frodo, Sam, Aragorn, Gandalf, Saruman, Galadriel, Elrond, Boromir, Faramir etc. etc. etc. before their mind's eye. PJ's LoTR film trilogy may have fixed one or the other of those pictures. For me certainly Gandalf, with Boromir and Saruman not far behind.

Same goes for me for parts on the writing Christopher published in HoMe. Some of the descriptions in BoLT 1 and 2 are quite overboard (and I don't mean the Aelfwine / Eriol tales transmission bit). Just read "The Tale of the Sun and Moon" in BoLT 1. Rarely if ever did JRRT go off the deep end in his description, get carried away in the heat of writing more than here. That seems to have gotten toned down in his later writings, it sure is seriously toned down in what Christopher put into the published Silmarillion. My guess is that the next worst "deep end" case, the confrontation between Morgoth and Ungoliant, which survived into the published Quenta Silmarillion chapter 9 "Of the Flight of the Noldor" near its beginning, never received this desperately needed toning down.

Then we jump to writing after JRRT had completed writing LoTR, some before publication of the big, not to say huge canon book, some after. HoMe volumes 10, 11 and 12. While the early phases show the young "wild man" JRRT, who had not yet quite shrugged off his sources to find his own voice (which is LoTR, period), the later writings show and aging, increasingly tired (for many reasons) and increasingly dissatisfied writer. I have stated my hypothesis that JRRT might in some way have *resented* having committed some things to a published canon. His tendency to be a natural niggler (who, without external pressure, never finishes *anything*) had been subverted, his options seriously constricted. I have this hypothesis that had JRRT lived quite a bit longer (Christopher lived about 14 years longer than his father) we might have been faced with a LoTR 2.0. And I shudder at the thought.


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## Elthir (Jul 2, 2021)

I'd agree that self consistency is important to the art of creating secondary worlds. And I can certainly see the appeal of keening (my wrong use of the word alert) to a selection of posthumously published writings from the 1930s, that are thus more consistent with themselves . . .

. . . that said, noting that canon can change with the author's time is, to me, another way to say the "1930s collection" was left behind for later updating/rewriting/including-new-ideas-and-characters
from _The Lord of the Rings._

As I say, for me canon is Tolkien-published text, which I've also found to be a recurring thread of agreement within the array of opinions concerning canon. And I'll add that whether Tolkien himself 
likes it or not*,* I also think Tolkien's canon is Tolkien-published text -- in my opinion he usually acts
like it, even when he steps on it -- if he remembers that he's stepping on it.

And had JRRT himself published his legendarium, how many "canon" arguments would arise?
I haven't found anyone*** arguing that Aragorn in _The Lord of the Rings_ is just a version of the
much wider "Tale of Trotter the Hobbit" story, or folks digging into the Lord of the Rings draft
texts to answer questions posed on webs.

**not yet*, though I found one person (in the last twenty years chatting Tolkien) who raised the
idea for fun.


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## m4r35n357 (Jul 2, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> Same goes for me for parts on the writing Christopher published in HoMe. Some of the descriptions in BoLT 1 and 2 are quite overboard (and I don't mean the Aelfwine / Eriol tales transmission bit). Just read "The Tale of the Sun and Moon" in BoLT 1. Rarely if ever did JRRT go off the deep end in his description, get carried away in the heat of writing more than here. That seems to have gotten toned down in his later writings, it sure is seriously toned down in what Christopher put into the published Silmarillion. My guess is that the next worst "deep end" case, the confrontation between Morgoth and Ungoliant, which survived into the published Quenta Silmarillion chapter 9 "Of the Flight of the Noldor" near its beginning, never received this desperately needed toning down.


I consider it a great pity that BoLT is even less complete than the Silmarillion. The descriptions and dialogue of the Valar is pure magnificence to me; the Perilous Realm with the gloves fully off! This atmosphere is very much continued into the Lay of Leithian, in an even more intense way because of the rhythm of the piece.

I like the over-the-top stuff


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## Elthir (Jul 2, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> I have this hypothesis that had JRRT lived quite a bit longer (Christopher lived about 14 years longer than his father) we might have been faced with a LoTR 2.0. And I shudder at the thought.



I stink at math but wouldn't it be the third version?

Anyway, Tolkien might have enlisted help with respect to other work still in progress, and at one point seemed to think Lord Halsbury was a possibility: *"When you retire I shall certainly beg your help. Without it, I begin to feel I shall never produce any part of The Silmarillion."*

Well, granted Tolkien might not have "really really" meant this, but in any case, this was written in August 1973 (letter 353), with Tolkien passing soon after. Would that Christopher Tolkien was available in the 1960s, with his attention to detail!

🐾 to reflect


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## Olorgando (Jul 2, 2021)

Elthir said:


> I stink at math but wouldn't it be the third version?


This has less, even nothing to do with math, but everything to do with computerese.
If you're someone whose computer operating system has been some incarnation of Microsoft something for decades, you know this.
Like that Windows 8.0 that quickly was updated to 8.1 (the huge company market was highly unamused at the attempt to "smartphonize" the Windows "desktop"). As my dealings with personal computers (in the office) goes back to the mid-1980's, I still remember *MS-DOS* 1.10!
No, the Second Edition of 1966 would at best qualify as a version 1.2.


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## Elthir (Jul 2, 2021)

Oh. I don't speak computerese. Anyway, I'm a bit curious what you think Tolkien might have done with another revised version of _The Lord of the Rings_ . . . that would make you shudder.

If you had something specific in mind, that is -- or maybe you just generally mean something like: 
who knows what he would have done!


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## Olorgando (Jul 2, 2021)

The latter.
With LoTR and HoMe volumes 6 to 8 and part of 9, we can compare what JRRT wrote over a period of basically 12 years, and what was his final revision.
It's what Christopher published in the last three volumes of HoMe that makes me shudder.


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## Elthir (Jul 2, 2021)

Okay. But there's not tons of description about the First Age in _The Lord of the Rings._

Do you think Gandalf, in the theoretical new Lord of the Rings, was going to explain to Frodo that the world was always round?



By the way, in my opinion there's an argument to be made that the Sun existed _before_ the Eldar passed Over Sea, based on description in _The Lord of the Rings_.

Think Treebeard ☀️


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jul 2, 2021)

He might have been a fungus.


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## Olorgando (Jul 2, 2021)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> He might have been a fungus.


Harrumph! Fungi are classified in their own eukaryotic *kingdom*, separate from the plant (or animal) kingdom.
They do live in symbiosis with plants, at the root level underground as long as plants are reasonably healthy.
That would mean that Tr... - no, that would then be Mushroombeard - had very little to do with plants.
Try again. 😜


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## Elthir (Jul 3, 2021)

Think Treebeard's "Tale of Years"

"Elves began it, of course, waking trees up and teaching them to talk ( . . . ) the old Elves did. But then the Great Darkness came, *and they passed away over the sea*, or fled into far valleys . . ."

"When the world was young . . . [the Ents and Entwives walked and housed together] . . . and they [the Ents] learned of the Elves and spoke with the Trees. But the Entwives gave their minds to the lesser trees and to the meads *in the sunshine* beyond the feet of the forests; . . ." ( . . . ) But we Ents went on wandering, and we only came to the gardens now and then. Then when the Darkness came in the North, the Entwives crossed the Great River, and made new gardens ( . . . )"

*"When the Darkness came in the North* -- Again, the darkness that came from Morgoth. The Ents and the Entwives therefore separated millennia before the present moment in the story." Hammond and Scull, The Lord of the Rings, A Reader's Companion

Yes. When the world was young! And when Morgoth's "Darkness" came, the Elves passed over Sea, and before that, the Entwives had given their minds to the meads in the . . .

☀️


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## m4r35n357 (Jul 3, 2021)

Elthir said:


> "When the world was young . . . [the Ents and Entwives walked and housed together] . . . and they [the Ents] learned of the Elves and spoke with the Trees. But the Entwives gave their minds to the lesser trees and to the meads *in the sunshine* beyond the feet of the forests; . . ." ( . . . ) But we Ents went on wandering, and we only came to the gardens now and then. Then when the Darkness came in the North, the Entwives crossed the Great River, and made new gardens ( . . . )"


If I were JRRT, given the choice of rewriting the entire creation myth (and all consequential repercussions of that) or losing just that phrase, I know what I would do!


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## Olorgando (Jul 3, 2021)

m4r35n357 said:


> If I were JRRT, given the choice of rewriting the entire creation myth (and all consequential repercussions of that) or losing just that phrase, I know what I would do!


My thought exactly. If JRRT liked a phrase or something similar, his "natural niggler" could go out the window double-time ...🤨


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## Elthir (Jul 4, 2021)

m4r35n357 said:


> If I were JRRT, given the choice of rewriting the entire creation myth (and all consequential repercussions of that) or losing just that phrase, I know what I would do!



The thing is, as I chatted about with others before, as I read the evidence in _The History of Middle-earth_ series (and letters), Tolkien abandoned rewriting an entirely new Silmarillion creation myth of the Sun and Moon (the new version still including the Two Trees in any case), because he realized he didn't have to rewrite a new one . . .

. . . rather all he needed to do was drop the old Ælfwine transmission and replace it with the Númenorean/Bilbo transmission, which he did in my opinion, and re-characterize _The Silmarillion _as a largely Mannish compilation (which he did) -- which *included* the Sun and Moon hailing from the tees.

But again, looking at _The Lord of the Rings_:

"The world was young, the mountains green,
No stain yet on *the Moon* was seen,
No words were laid on stream or stone,
*When Durin woke* and walked alone."

Gimli, _A Journey in the Dark_, The Fellowship of the Ring


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## m4r35n357 (Jul 5, 2021)

Elthir said:


> The thing is, as I chatted about with others before, as I read the evidence in _The History of Middle-earth_ series (and letters), Tolkien abandoned rewriting an entirely new Silmarillion creation myth of the Sun and Moon (the new version still including the Two Trees in any case), because he realized he didn't have to rewrite a new one . . .
> 
> . . . rather all he needed to do was drop the old Ælfwine transmission and replace it with the Númenorean/Bilbo transmission, which he did in my opinion, and re-characterize _The Silmarillion _as a largely Mannish compilation (which he did) -- which *included* the Sun and Moon hailing from the tees.
> 
> ...


Hmmm, the quest for science in mythology . . .

At some point (or over a period of time), Tolkien seemed to lose "faith" in his mythology, and set about attempting to turn it into a "history" instead. I struggle to imagine why he even thought that would work! I can sort of imagine why he wanted to back out (including perceived waning cultural relevance of this type of thing, personal religious considerations), but he _must_ have realized it was too far gone to be "tranformed".

I wish he had stuck to his guns. The Elves didn't need to be ignorant or _stupid_ to support and perpetuate the mythology, they are simply reporting what actually happened, *because it did*


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## Elthir (Jul 5, 2021)

m4r35n357 said:


> Hmmm, the quest for science in mythology . . . At some point (or over a period of time), Tolkien seemed to lose "faith" in his mythology, and set about attempting to turn it into a "history" instead.



The main issues were flat-earth/sun-moon from the two trees . . . and when Tolkien was thinking of a pre-existing sun he noted that the _legends_ of the Eldar should have a _closer_ relation to at least the form of the solar system: *" . . . though it need not, of course, follow any scientific theory of its making or development."*

JRRT, Myths Transfomed II, Morgoth's Ring



m4r35n357 said:


> I struggle to imagine why he even thought that would work! I can sort of imagine why he wanted to back out (including perceived waning cultural relevance of this type of thing, personal religious considerations), but he _must_ have realized it was too far gone to be "tranformed".



How much of the earth being originally flat actually affects the tales in _Quenta Silmarillion_ for example? And there's plenty of stories -- including the long prose versions of Beren and Luthien, Túrin, and the Fall of Gondolin, that occur after the Sun existed in any case.



m4r35n357 said:


> I wish he had stuck to his guns.



In my opinion, according to late texts Tolkien decided to *keep* the tale of the Sun and Moon as hailing from trees, as well as the notion of a once flat earth -- within a multi-perspective legendarium that included a Troll baking bread for a Hobbit, Earendil the "star" and the Entwives in the sunshine before the Elves passed over Sea . . . and variant conceptions of the Straight Road . . .

. . . and other stuff


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## m4r35n357 (Jul 5, 2021)

Elthir said:


> This seems too sweeping to me. The main issues were flat-earth/sun-moon from the two trees . . .
> and when Tolkien was thinking of a pre-existing sun he noted that the _legends_ of the Eldar should have a _closer_ relation to at least the form of the solar system: *" . . . though it need not, of course, follow any scientific theory of its making or development."*
> 
> JRRT, Myths Transfomed II, Morgoth's Ring
> ...



Well, if you haven't noticed yet, hyperbole is my natural style 

The main part of the creation is obviously the area affected most, rather than the tales, and the creation is important to _me_. YMMV  Knowing the flat-earth version, it seemed like a series of uninteresting (to me) compromises over the flat earth one.

I actually am fairly confident that _many_ of the older ideas would have remained (with adaptations) if he had had the time to complete, but I just think the change of fundamental approach (". . . you cannot do this any more.", Myths Transformed 1) would never have allowed that, _however_ long he had lived (text seems to magically "expand" out of proportion whenever he updates things). Yes, pure supposition. We have no real idea how he would have attempted to resolve things.

I am also happy with the "mannish" viewpoint of the published Silmarillion. I just think the Elvish/AElfwine transmission is too good to abandon (for me). Occasionally I try to justify the Elvish texts as an ultra-stylised, artistic description of things (and events) rather than a realistic one. If corrupted Elves are capable of Kinslaying I am OK with seeing Elvish Chauvinism creeping into the stories too  But this is all head-canon anyway!

I do think we are very fortunate to have these older texts available, and it seems a shame to waste them.


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## Elthir (Jul 5, 2021)

m4r35n357 said:


> I am also happy with the "mannish" viewpoint of the published Silmarillion.



*Huzzah*! As I think that's exactly how the old myths were to be retained, even if the Sun-myth contradicts the "Treebeard Mythology" of _The Lord of the Rings_.



Also, it seems we were possibly "destined" to have a Mannish blend with Elvish legends from Quendi who hadn't passed Over Sea. *"But the legends are mainly of "Mannish" origin blended with those of the Sindar (Gray-elves) and others who had never left Middle-earth." *Tolkien, letter 325, 1971

Hmm. Tolkien seems to have written _gray_ not _grey_ here.

I love the "Æflwine transmission" too, and certainly enjoy _The Book of Lost Tales_ and the
"1930s Qenta Collection" (as *nobody* calls it). I can imaginatively indulge in these as true, leaving
the asterisk in my skull-chamber behind for a given period of time/enjoyment, but for fleshing out
my personal legendarium, or for answering questions slash annoying people on the webs with my
opinions . . .

. . . I'll have my _Ambarussa_ twins


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## m4r35n357 (Jul 6, 2021)

Elthir said:


> . . . I'll have my _Ambarussa_ twins


Well, one of them anyway


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## Olorgando (Jul 6, 2021)

Elthir said:


> m4r35n357 said:
> 
> 
> > I am also happy with the "mannish" viewpoint of the published Silmarillion.
> ...


In a way I am surprised that JRRT, of all people, would want to make something he pretended to be a least 6,000 years old (an up to 15,000 years old from the rising of the sun in his First Age) could be a "mannish tradition". Few people during his lifetime could have known better than he did that even *written* traditions are subject to corruption and decay: Beowulf, the Norse Sagas, the confused state of the Völsunga saga / Nibelungenlied complex, and probably many others, the older, the worse in shape they were.

And as this "mannish tradition" would involve Númenor (though I see multiple, massive problems with this approach), how about what clearly inspired his for this? He himself called the Alallabêth et al his personal "Atlantis tradition".

As with Númenor, the source for Atlantis (that we have) is a single author: Plato.
Interestingly, what Plato wrote about "Atlantis" is found in his personal "Unfinished Tales": _Timaeus_, _Critias_, and _Hermocrates_.
Assuming all three parts to have been planned to be of about the same length, i.e. the entire trilogy three times the completed _Timaeus,_ then the unfinished _Critias_ was completed to perhaps a third, and _Hermocrates_ was lost, or, more likely, never written.
While some commentators believe Plato made up all of his Atlantis stuff (as is clearly *not* the case for other topics he deals with in the parts of his trilogy that survive), Plato is emphatic that he had a reliable source for this tale in his family: his great- etc. uncle six generations back, Solon the wise. Solon (app. 640/630-560 B.C.) lived a bit over 200 years before Plato (427-347 B.C.).
Solon, in his turn, got his information about "Atlantis" from Egyptian priests in the Egyptian city of Sais (that he was in Egypt is reported by Herodotus and Plutarch, as well as the speaker Critias after whom the middle book of Plato's trilogy was named).
What is Solon told? By the description of the weaponry and other details, warfare in the (late) Bronze Age. What of this "Atlantis" having been thousends of years in the past even at Solon's times? A confusion between solar and lunar calendars; both were in use in Egypt at the time, a solar one for agriculture and a lunar one for ritualistic purposes. And what might be surprising to many, what is actually mentioned in the surviving text is the downfall of *Greek* (city-) states as a result of the conflict described. The downfall of *Atlantis* would probably have been described in the unfinished parts.
Bronze Age conflict, downfall of Greek (city-) states as a result? That fits quite well with the downfall of the Mycenaean civilization at the end of the Bronze Age. At which time the Hittite Empire also finally collapsed. Egypt had to deal with the mysterious "Sea Peoples". Plenty of cities went up in flames in the eastern Mediterranean, from Egypt's eastern borders up the coast to the Anatolian peninsula, west along its southern coast (and on Cyprus), then north again along its Aegean coast, including in its north-western corner, Troy.
In fact, where Plato breaks off writing in _Critias_ it is starting so sound suspiciously like the opening of Homer's Iliad.
In a way, the penny had dropped.
The Egyptians were, in the turmoils at the end of the Bronze Age, off to the side of the main action, which concentrated on the Aegean region, Anatolia, and the western shores of the Mediterranean, mostly the north-western ones. The Egyptians were at the time (loosely) allied to the Hittites, and these in turn with the Mycenaeans. In between the latter two was something, an alliance, suggested as a "West Anatolian alliance" which could well have included Troy. And the Hittites also had problems to their east, and to the north.
The Egyptians thus didn't have anything close to detailed information of what was going on there. And the writings on Egyptian temples of all ages must be taken with more than a grain of salt, as they are mainly glorifications of the pharaohs. Besides them not getting names etc. right, translating them into terms more familiar to them. About 600 years later, Solon gets this unclear information, falls prey to unclear calendarial statements (and probably linear and other measures, anything but uniform even centuries and centuries later), translates Egyptian terms back into classical Greek ...

Mannish tradition?
G'way!!! 🤢


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## m4r35n357 (Jul 6, 2021)

Elthir said:


> *Huzzah*! As I think that's exactly how the old myths were to be retained, even if the Sun-myth contradicts the "Treebeard Mythology" of _The Lord of the Rings_.





Olorgando said:


> Mannish tradition?
> G'way!!! 🤢


Good stuff!

So are you making a case for Elvish/AElfwine transmission here, or some other mode, or throwing your arms up in the air? Apologies if you have made your views clear in the past!

Just to say, my view of the "mannish" tradition goes _something like_:
Middle-Earth(verbal?)->Numenor(written)->Gondor/Arnor(preserved)->Bilbo(translated to Westron in the presence of Elves & Dunedain)->Tolkien(translator into English).
I guess this is probably not right, since Bilbo's stuff is supposed to be "Translations from the Elvish"!

Is there an earlier thread dealing with this?
[EDIT] I found one that I participated in, but I am none the wiser


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## Elthir (Jul 6, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> In a way I am surprised that JRRT, of all people, would want to make something he pretended to be a least 6,000 years old (an up to 15,000 years old from the rising of the sun in his First Age) could be a "mannish tradition". Few people during his lifetime could have known better than he did that even *written* traditions are subject to corruption and decay: Beowulf, the Norse Sagas, the confused state of the Völsunga saga / Nibelungenlied complex, and probably many others, the older, the worse in shape they were.



But you seem (to me) to be making a case_ for_ a Mannish tradition here, as far as (a measure of) "confusion" goes anyway.

And with respect to physical decay, why assume Bilbo was working from a 6,000 year old stack of papers?



Olorgando said:


> And as this "mannish tradition" would involve Númenor (though I see multiple, massive problems with this approach), how about what clearly inspired his for this?



What *multiple *and* massive* problems was Tolkien forgetting here 



> * m4r35n357* (or something close to those numbers and letters) wrote:
> 
> ( . . . ) I guess this is probably not right, since Bilbo's stuff is supposed to be "Translations from the Elvish"!



Yes, Elvish *languages* . . . translated into Westron


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## m4r35n357 (Jul 6, 2021)

Elthir said:


> Yes, Elvish *languages* . . . translated into Westron


For the mannish mode I would have expected a description like "Translations from the Adunaic (into Westron)". That is the bit that confuses me!


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## Olorgando (Jul 6, 2021)

m4r35n357 said:


> So are you making a case for Elvish/AElfwine transmission here, or some other mode, or throwing your arms up in the air?
> ...
> Is there an earlier thread dealing with this?


To a degree, throwing my arms up in the air.
The Eriol, then Ælfwine transmission of the tales fails utterly, as it is set just prior to the Anglo-Saxon move to the British isles, however that took place, or in Viking times, IIRC. JRRT then moved the actions thousands of years back.
The only scenario that would give us only slightly corrupted copies of the "Red Book of Westmarch" by Bilbo, Frodo and Sam, and Bilbo's "Translations from Elvish", would be a time capsule like those that are often placed in the foundations of buildings. Thousands of years in which no uncomprehending scribe of the Big Folk could totally mess things up, as they surely would have.


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## m4r35n357 (Jul 6, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> To a degree, throwing my arms up in the air.
> The Eriol, then Ælfwine transmission of the tales fails utterly, as it is set just prior to the Anglo-Saxon move to the British isles, however that took place, or in Viking times, IIRC. JRRT then moved the actions thousands of years back.


The preamble to the Quenta Silmarillion (1937) says that AElfwine wrote his bits partly in Eressea but mostly _after his return to Britain_ (Angelcynn). I have not seen this amended anywhere in HoME 10/11, but I haven't studied those as much.

How does "prior to the AS move . . ." come in? That is new to me.


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## Olorgando (Jul 6, 2021)

Elthir said:


> What *multiple *and* massive* problems was Tolkien forgetting here


What of the First Age (in Middle-earth) could the Númenóreans have known from own, first-hand sources? Very, very little, and even less is likely to have survived by the time the remnants of the original Edain settled the island. *Then* Elros and his heirs could have learned much from Elves visiting from Tol Eressëa. But they'd have to have built up something akin to the Library of Congress to preserve this for later generations.
Then the Númenóreans became grumpy at those in "the West". Not long after the Númenóreans helped kick Sauron out of Eriador in 1701 SA, there is the entry "c. 1800 ... The shadow falls on Númenor." Things keep getting worse. At the end of the Second Age, Sauron spends 57 years in Númenor - 3262-3319 SA. He had his minions throwing people into sacrificial fires, so what's the problem with books? Anyway, the whole island is destroyed.
I don't quite see Elendil, Isildur and Anárion lugging a huge library with them on their nine ships. In that emergency, I'd think they have other priorities.
OK, so perhaps the faithful among the Númenóreans had been taking copies of this "Library of Congress" to their own havens in Middle-earth? Possibly. But unless these were quite a bit inland, they would have had serious problems with the huge storms - and most likely tsunami - accompanying the change of the world.
And anyway, there were those Elven sources still in Middle-earth. Cirdan, Galadriel and Elrond, later (?) a returned Glorfindel. How are these "mannish traditions" supposed to creep in the writing by the four Hobbits? Unless JRRT postulates "mannish traditions" *separate* from these Hobbit writings, I see no possibility.
And besides ...



Elthir said:


> But you seem (to me) to be making a case_ for_ a Mannish tradition here, as far as (a measure of) "confusion" goes anyway.


No way! Hoping "mannish tradition" would be limited to '(a measure of) "confusion"' seems hopelessly optimistic to me. We totally mess things up beyond recognition.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jul 6, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> I don't quite see Elendil, Isildur and Anárion lugging a huge library with them on their nine ships


Why not? They took a 14-foot-diameter rock!


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## Olorgando (Jul 6, 2021)

m4r35n357 said:


> How does "prior to the AS move . . ." come in? That is new to me.


Eriol, the earlier incarnation of the transmitter, is, in an early outline, the father of Hengest and Horsa ... (Scull & Hammond "Reader's Guide" (2006), page 258).



Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Why not? They took a 14-foot-diameter rock!


Leaving even *less* room (more exactly buoyancy) for books and scrolls ... 😁


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## m4r35n357 (Jul 6, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> Eriol, the earlier incarnation of the transmitter, is, in an early outline, the father of Hengest and Horsa ... (Scull & Hammond "Reader's Guide" (2006), page 258).


OK (I don't have that source, but isn't Eriol _Lost Tales_?), so then the QS preamble contradicts that and solves the problem doesn't it?


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## Elthir (Jul 6, 2021)

m4r35n357 said:


> For the mannish mode I would have expected a description like "Translations from the Adunaic (into Westron)". That is the bit that confuses me!



The Dunedain of Numenor spoke Sindarin and handed it onto their children as a matter of lore, and their wise knew Quenya too, and esteemed it above all other languages. 

And while Adunaic was the native speech (for the most part) of the Numenoreans in general, eventually the faithful were persecuted for openly speaking Sindarin. Or note the Sindarin title of one of the Great Tales, for example: *Narn Beren ion Barahir* or *Narn e-Dinuviel*.

🐾


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## Olorgando (Jul 6, 2021)

m4r35n357 said:


> OK (I don't have that source, but isn't Eriol _Lost Tales_?), so then the QS preamble contradicts that and solves the problem doesn't it?


With QS you mean that in "The Lost Road", HoMe vol. 5? In vol. 4 "The Shaping of M-e" it is referred to simply as "The Quenta" (Q).


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## m4r35n357 (Jul 6, 2021)

Elthir said:


> The Dunedain of Numenor spoke Sindarin and handed it onto their children as a matter of lore, and their wise knew Quenya too, and esteemed it above all other languages.


I'm assuming that is because the Noldor (who taught them) took Thingol's language ban seriously then. So they had some scruples at least  I might have expected they would just say "screw Thingol" and teach them Noldorin anyway.



Olorgando said:


> With QS you mean that in "The Lost Road", HoMe vol. 5? In vol. 4 "The Shaping of M-e" it is referred to simply as "The Quenta" (Q).


Yes. That one (QS, Quenta Silmarillion, vol. 5) is a particular interest to me. I refer to the one in vol. 4 as the Qenta Noldorinwa, QN, (no "u" for some reason). QN is only really of interest to me for containing the latest versions of the falls of Doriath and Gondolin.



Elthir said:


> The Dunedain of Numenor spoke Sindarin and handed it onto their children as a matter of lore, and their wise knew Quenya too, and esteemed it above all other languages.
> 🐾


Separate from my other answer, I noticed an interesting point; there is no language ban in my "pet canon" (pre-LotR), as there is no conversation between Melian and Galadriel, obviously! The language of Men is described there in the Lhammas " . . . for already in Gumlin's day Men in Beleriand forsook the daily use of their own tongue (Taliska, from the Green Elves) and spoke and gave even names unto their children in the language of the Noldor".

Interesting.


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## Olorgando (Jul 6, 2021)

Leafing through volumes 10 and 11, I notice that at least at some point in JRRT's 'Silmarillion' writings after he had finished the writing of LoTR (if not the appendices), Ælfwine still crops up as "transmitter". When *did* JRRT finally put this concept to rest? Or was it Christopher who excised this part for the published Sil?


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## m4r35n357 (Jul 6, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> Leafing through volumes 10 and 11, I notice that at least at some point in JRRT's 'Silmarillion' writings after he had finished the writing of LoTR (if not the appendices), Ælfwine still crops up as "transmitter". When *did* JRRT finally put this concept to rest? Or was it Christopher who excised this part for the published Sil?



Does "Myths Transformed no.1 (vol. 10) do it for you? If not, there is a reference from a letter in this very thread (I don't count private correspondence as canon!).








Is the Andreth prophecy canon?


Or thomething elth? 🤔




www.thetolkienforum.com





There might be other places, but I can't think where ATM . . .

But in all the text sources in HoME, Pengolodh & AElfwine are still there (and let's not forget Rumil and Quennar while we are at it!). Quennar Onotimo was actually introduced _after_ LotR (in the Annals of Aman, vol.10). In fact, he was marked for insertion into the Tale of Years (vol.11), so _very_ late on!

Better stop editing the post above, but I can put it more starkly now; Quennar was introduced in the same document as Galadriel!


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## Elthir (Jul 6, 2021)

*Gando*, if my memory serves, Ælfwine vanishes after the later 1950s "phase".



> *Olorgando *wrote: What of the First Age (in Middle-earth) could the Númenóreans have known from own, first-hand sources? Very, very little, and even less is likely to have survived by the time the remnants of the original Edain settled the island.



_The Children of Hurin_ was written by a Man called Dirhaval (long i) even within the old Ælfwine concept, and Tolkien later noted:

"As is seen in the Silmarillion. This is not an Eldarin title or work. It is a compilation, probably made in Numenor, which includes (in prose) the four great tales or lays of the heroes of the Atani, of which 'The Children of Hurin' was probably composed already in Beleriand in the First Age, but necessarily is preceded by an account of Feanor and his making of the Silmarils. All however are 'Mannish' works.'"

But in any case you go on to say . . .



> Then Elros and his heirs could have learned much from Elves visiting from Tol Eressëa. But they'd have to have built up something akin to the Library of Congress to preserve this for later generations.



*Egg*ads!

Why imagine “too much” paper in the ships of the Faithful? Bilbo’s work was three large volumes, for example, and the Faithful didn’t escape in kayaks (how’s that for my stab at hyperbole)!



> Then the Númenóreans became grumpy at those in "the West". Not long after the Númenóreans helped kick Sauron out of Eriador in 1701 SA, there is the entry "c. 1800 ... The shadow falls on Númenor."



Tolkien is aware of the Shadow falling: *"Here begin the 'Annals of Aman'. Rúmil made them in the Elder Days, and they were held in memory by the Exiles. Those parts which we learned and remembered were thus set down in Númenor before the Shadow fell upon it."*



> I don't quite see Elendil, Isildur and Anárion lugging a huge library with them on their nine ships. In that emergency, I'd think they have other priorities.



But you're assuming any "lugging" needed to be done in that "emergency." 

It's said (Akallabeth) that after Elendil stored his ships, including scrolls of lore: *“Thus Elendil held himself in readiness, and did not meddle in the evil deeds of those days; and ever he looked for a sign that did not come.” *And before that Isildur had stolen a fruit from Nimloth. Also . . .

"The following account is an abbreviation of a curious document, preserved in the archives of Gondor by strange chance (or by many such chances) from the Elder Days, but in a *copy apparently made in Númenor not long before its downfall: probably by or at the orders of Elendil himself, when selecting such records as he could hope to store for the journey to Middle-earth.* This one no doubt owed its selection and its copying, first to Elendil's own love of the Eldarin tongues and of the works of the loremasters who wrote about their history; but also to the unusual contents of this disquisition in Quenya: Eldarinwe Leperi are Notessi: The Elvish Fingers and Numerals. It is attributed, by the copyist, to Pengoloð (or Quendingoldo) of Gondolin, and he describes the Elvish play-names of the fingers as used by and taught to children."

JRRT, Vinyar Tengwar 48



> OK, so perhaps the faithful among the Númenóreans had been taking copies of this "Library of Congress" to their own havens in Middle-earth? Possibly. But unless these were quite a bit inland, they would have had serious problems with the huge storms - and most likely tsunami - accompanying the change of the world.



Tolkien didn’t forget the change and ruin of this time, but yet the Faithful survived. Indeed, *“by the grace of the Valar”* the Faithful were spared from the ruin of that day . . . only to crash and lose all their scrolls in Middle-earth?



> And anyway, there were those Elven sources still in Middle-earth. Cirdan, Galadriel and Elrond, later (?) a returned Glorfindel. How are these "mannish traditions" supposed to creep in the writing by the four Hobbits? Unless JRRT postulates "mannish traditions" separate from these Hobbit writings, I see no possibility.



According to JRRT, Mannish ideas had begun to mix with Elven stuff way-way-way before Bilbo got his hands on anything kept in Rivendell. And thus, obviously before the Hobbits wrote their tales as well (including The Lord of the Rings) and poems. And Tolkien _published_ that Rivendell contained Numenorean lore as well as Elvish

The Adventures of Tom Bombadil: *" . . . No. 14 also depends on the lore of Rivendell, Elvish and Númenorean, concerning the heroic days at the end of the First Age; it seems to contain echoes of the Númenorean tale of Túrin and Mim the Dwarf."*

And I don’t imagine it was Glorfindel’s “job” (or any Elf for that matter) “to repaint the Mona Lisa if she really didn’t look like that” -- so to speak.

We don’t even know if an Elvish-perspective Silmarillion existed to be translated by Bilbo. And given Tolkien’s characterization above, it seems that Bilbo translated something *“probably made in Numenor”*

And written in Elvish


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## Olorgando (Jul 6, 2021)

m4r35n357 said:


> Does "Myths Transformed no.1 (vol. 10) do it for you?


The only thing most if not all of "Myths Transformed" "does" for me is to raise the hackles on the back of my neck as would happen to Carcharoth when getting a scent of Huan (and perhaps the other way around, too). 🤬
Certainly not remotely JRRT's best writing (that was LoTR, by a huge margin); some, even quite a bit, of it rates among his worst, for my taste.


Elthir said:


> And Tolkien _published_ that Rivendell contained Numenorean lore as well as Elvish
> The Adventures of Tom Bombadil: *" . . . No. 14 also depends on the lore of Rivendell, Elvish and Númenorean, concerning the heroic days at the end of the First Age; it seems to contain echoes of the Númenorean tale of Túrin and Mim the Dwarf."*


"Tom Bombadil" was published in 1962, when JRRT had gotten this "mannish tradition" bee lodged firmly in his bonnet (and after Christopher's best guess for the time of writing of "MT", late 1950's).


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## Elthir (Jul 6, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> The only thing most if not all of "Myths Transformed" "does" for me ( . . . ) Certainly not remotely JRRT's best writing (that was LoTR, by a huge margin); some, even quite a bit, of it rates among his worst, for my taste.



There are eleven texts in_ Myths Transformed_, and I'd say ten of them are merely Tolkien thinking with a pen. These texts are not intended as tales, and I'd guess JRRT isn't interested in artistic styling here, nor hoping for any best writing awards.

In my opinion, the only text in this group -- aside from text XI *Aman*, which seems intended to mimic a scholarly explanation anyway, and thus still very unlike something intended to entertain like a good story -- the only other text which seems intended to approach an in-story author's voice, is the narrative associated with text II.



Olorgando said:


> "Tom Bombadil" was published in 1962, when JRRT had gotten this "mannish tradition" bee lodged firmly in his bonnet (and after Christopher's best guess for the time of writing of "MT", late 1950's).



Okayyy


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## Elthir (Jul 7, 2021)

m4r35n357 said:


> I'm assuming that is because the Noldor (who taught them) took Thingol's language ban seriously then.



Also it came about naturally, since the Exiles needed to speak with the Sindar from the get go.
Twenty years after the Noldor returned, it was said that during the Feast of Reuniting: *"the tongue of the Grey-elves was most spoken even by the Noldor, for they learned swiftly the speech of Beleriand, whereas the Sindar were slow to master the tongue of Valinor"*

🐾


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## m4r35n357 (Jul 7, 2021)

Elthir said:


> Also it came about naturally, since the Exiles needed to speak with the Sindar from the get go.
> Twenty years after the Noldor returned, it was said that during the Feast of Reuniting: *"the tongue of the Grey-elves was most spoken even by the Noldor, for they learned swiftly the speech of Beleriand, whereas the Sindar were slow to master the tongue of Valinor"*


Fair enough, but that doesn't say anything about what they taught _Men_, unless they forgot their Noldorin


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## Elthir (Jul 7, 2021)

m4r35n357 said:


> Fair enough, but that doesn't say anything about what they taught _Men_, unless they forgot their Noldorin



Well, I wasn't attempting to make that argument in that post, but . . .

. . . Appendix F and UT note: *"the Dúnedain alone of all races of Men knew and spoke an Elvish tongue; for their forefathers had learned the Sindarin tongue, and this they handed on to their children as a matter of lore, changing little with the passing of the years". *

In the First Age *"the most part of *[the Edain]* soon learned the Grey-elven tongue, both as a common speech among themselves and because many were eager to learn the lore of the Elves" *(_Silmarillion_ 17). _Narn i Chîn Húrin_ was made by a Mannish poet by the name of Dírhavel,* "but it was prized by the Eldar, for Dírhavel used the Grey-elven tongue, in which he had great skill"*

The people of Haleth, howver, did not learn Sindarin well or with enthusiasm (UT). Túrin learned Sindarin in Doriath. Nellas *"taught him to speak the Sindarin tongue after the manner of the ancient realm, older, and more courteous, and richer in beautiful words" *(UT)

🐾


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