# Were Dark Elves actually disadvantaged?



## Ancalagon (Jul 15, 2002)

This question popped into my head after reading Elessars thread; http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4958

Do you feel that those Elves who chose to remain in Middle-Earth and were known as Dark Elves because they never saw the light of The Trees were actually at a disadvantage over those who travelled?

When one considers the turmoils that ensued within Aman because of Melkor and the kinslaying at Aqualonde by Feanor and the resulting Doom of Mandos, were those who remained better off for choosing to stay as they were?


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## Ithrynluin (Jul 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ancalagon _
> *When one considers the turmoils that ensued within Aman because of Melkor and the kinslaying at Aqualonde by Feanor and the resulting Doom of Mandos, were those who remained better off for choosing to stay as they were? *



I don't think you could call them either advantaged or disadvantaged.
The advantage:they did not experience all the horrible events that occured in Valinor and in Beleriand/North-West of Me.They probably led peaceful lives far in the East.
The disadvantage:they missed out on the bliss and beauty of Valinor,the Valar,the light of the 2 trees,etc.Despite the fact that the High elves experienced A LOT of sorrow,many beautiful things were born out of it too.


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## Maedhros (Jul 15, 2002)

> I don't think you could call them either advantaged or disadvantaged


I would called them disadvantageous in general. The whole of ME was "marred" by Morgoth. The place that was the most "unaffected" if you will was Valinor. The elves that went there were definitely less "insightful" because they didn't see the light of the trees or received the teachings of the Valar.
They didn't experience what happened in the rebellion nor the kinslaying, yet they suffered in ME at Morgoth's expense.


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## Ithrynluin (Jul 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Maedhros _
> *
> I would called them disadvantageous in general. The whole of ME was "marred" by Morgoth. The place that was the most "unaffected" if you will was Valinor. The elves that went there were definitely less "insightful" because they didn't see the light of the trees or received the teachings of the Valar.
> They didn't experience what happened in the rebellion nor the kinslaying, yet they suffered in ME at Morgoth's expense. *



What about those elves that lived far into the East of the world? I was mainly thinking of them in my previous post.
If we're talking only about those who lived in Beleriand/NW of ME and haven't been to Valinor,then i'd say they were at a disadvantage.


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## Maedhros (Jul 15, 2002)

> I was mainly thinking of them in my previous post.


Ok, but in the end they supodsedly all of the elves returned or went to Valinor because the ages that came was the age of Man.


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## Ithrynluin (Jul 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Maedhros _
> *
> Ok, but in the end they supodsedly all of the elves returned or went to Valinor because the ages that came was the age of Man. *



I don't think they all went to Valinor.Tolkien says in one of his letters that elves did remain in ME (which is now our own world) but they became "invisible" (he uses another word,I can't remember which) so that we can't see them.However,they do get in touch with some people (I'm extremely tempted to say "some of us"),if they sense they are special (have a special appreciation and love for nature or something to that degree).
A lil' bit off topic,but just thought you should know


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## Maedhros (Jul 15, 2002)

> A lil' bit off topic,but just thought you should know.


Ok, Hmmmmm. I think i have met some of them.


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## Ithrynluin (Jul 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Maedhros _
> *
> Ok, Hmmmmm. I think i have met some of them. *



Hey,me too!And they're really great.
Actually,I think I might be one of them.


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## Maedhros (Jul 15, 2002)

No wait, now I remember. I met them but they didn't like my words and banished me from their realm. Well, hmmmmm are you sure you're one of them.


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## Rúmil (Jul 16, 2002)

I think they were definitely disadvantaged. They didn't see the beauty of Valinor, dwell in bliss for a hundred centuries, and they weren't enhanced by the teaching of the Valar:


> and those who had dwelt in Valinor and looked upon the Powers as much surpassed the Dark Elves as they in turn surpassed the people of mortal race.


 Sil chap 12.
And They didn't suffer the Kinslayings, but they were troubled by Morgoth, and many were captured and dragged to Angband to be twisted into Orcs. And there are no songs about the great deeds of the Dark Elves, are there?


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## aragil (Jul 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *Tolkien says in one of his letters that elves did remain in ME (which is now our own world) but they became "invisible" (he uses another word,I can't remember which) so that we can't see them.*



He says the Elves 'faded'- eventually their bodies disintegrated, and they were basically just houseless spirits wandering around. In addition to Letters, there's a great bit about this in Morgoth's Ring (Yay).

I also think the Caliquendi were disadvantaged- again in Morgoth's Ring there is talk about how their spirits didn't always go to Mandos when summoned- mainly out of ignorance. But don't you think they'd be sensitive to the term 'disadvantaged'? Perhaps we should call them 'differently-abled'?


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## Rúmil (Jul 16, 2002)

Hum, the Calaquendi are the Light Elves, the Moriquendi the Dark ones. Are you saying the Light Elves are disadvantaged?


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## aragil (Jul 16, 2002)

D'oh!! Curse these Elven languages. Can't they mean what I intend for them to mean?


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## Elu Thingol (Jul 16, 2002)

> _Posted by ithrynluin_
> I don't think they all went to Valinor.Tolkien says in one of his letters that elves did remain in ME (which is now our own world) but they became "invisible" (he uses another word,I can't remember which) so that we can't see them.However,they do get in touch with some people (I'm extremely tempted to say "some of us"),if they sense they are special (have a special appreciation and love for nature or something to that degree).
> A lil' bit off topic,but just thought you should know



What are you talking about? Arda is a completely different world than ours. Show me this letter and then I will believe what I am seeing! Right now I think what you just said is crazy.


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## Rúmil (Jul 16, 2002)

No, actually Arda is the imaginary, far-distant past of our world. At the early stages of the mythology, all the texts of the Sil were reported by an Englishman of the 10th century, Ælfwine. And England was a part of Eressëa. (that was changed)


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## Ithrynluin (Jul 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Elu Thingol _
> *
> 
> What are you talking about? Arda is a completely different world than ours. Show me this letter and then I will believe what I am seeing! Right now I think what you just said is crazy. *



Tolkien's stories are set in a _fictional time_ but the _place_ of all the events is very much our own world.We are now in the 8th Age or something like that.I can't provide you with the exact quote cause I don't have the letters (maybe someone else can post it).If you still don't believe me,obtain the letters and you'll see.


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## Rúmil (Jul 16, 2002)

from a letter of JRRT:


> I imagine the gap [between the Fall of Barad-dûr and modern times] to be about 6000 years; that is we are now at the end of the Fifth Age, if the Ages were of about the same length as S[econd] A[ge] and T[hird] A[ge]. But they have, I think, quickened; and I imagine we are actually at the end of the Sixth Age, or in the Seventh."


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## Legolas_lover12 (Jul 16, 2002)

i would say every race in ME had advantages and disavantages.
and, duh, ME is the forgotton past of our world. i have a whole really long theory and other things but i won't bother u w/ those now.


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## Camille (Jul 17, 2002)

> I think they were definitely disadvantaged. They didn't see the beauty of Valinor, dwell in bliss for a hundred centuries, and they weren't enhanced by the teaching of the Valar:


I do not thin they had disadvantange, well.. indeed they were less powerful than the high elvs, but they chose to reamind in ME and that was their choice, so no one can be blame except the Avari.


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