# How did Gollum know that Frodo was a Baggins?



## Musica (Sep 4, 2018)

Hail and well met! 

I'm brand new to this forum and this is my first post. I've been reading so many postings today - all very interesting and informative.

I've read the LOTR many times and have listened to the audiobooks even more and I have yet to understand how Gollum knew that Frodo was a Baggins. 


_May the stars shine on your faces._


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## Deleted member 12094 (Sep 4, 2018)

Welcome here Musica!

To understand this and know of the events in detail, you would actually need to read not LOTR but "The Hobbit", in which all events are told about the quest for the Lonely Mountain and the finding of the Ring.

In particular, Bilbo's meeting with Gollun is related in Chapter 5 "Riddles in the Dark":

_He suddenly saw the pale eyes sticking out at him.
“Who are you?” he said, thrusting his dagger in front of him.
“What iss he, my preciouss?” whispered Gollum (who always spoke to himself through never having anyone else to speak to). This is what he had come to find out, for he was not really very hungry at the moment, only curious; otherwise he would have grabbed first and whispered afterwards.
“I am Mr. Bilbo Baggins. I have lost the dwarves and I have lost the wizard, and I don’t know where I am; and I don’t want to know, if only I can get away.”_​
So he gave his true name immediately to Gollum! You can read some references to these events in LotR, like e.g. in Chapter 2 "The Shadow of the Past":

_‘He hated Bilbo and cursed his name. What is more, he knew where he came from.’
‘But how did he find that out?’ asked Frodo.
‘Well, as for the name, Bilbo very foolishly told Gollum himself; and after that it would not be difficult to discover his country, once Gollum came out._​


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 4, 2018)

But that, of course, doesn't answer the question of how he knew _Frodo _was a Baggins.

I never really thought about it before. Time for research!

Edit: OK, a little browsing has turned this up: When Gollum falls from the cliff in the Emyn Muil, Sam jumps him, but Gollum fights back, almost overcoming him, until Frodo comes to his aid:

_'Let go! Gollum,' he said. 'This is Sting. You have seen it once upon a time. Let go, or you will feel it this time. I'll cut your throat."
_
Of course, it's conceivable that Gollum assumed that since a "Baggins" had originally "stolen" his ring, anyone holding it would also be a "Baggins"; there's no indication of that, however.

It's also possible that he might have heard the name sometime between Moria and the Breaking; I'll have to look further for that.

But it's likely that anyone wielding the _sword _of Baggins would be one. At any rate, it's only after this, when Gollum argues with himself, in the desolation around Mordor, that he refers to "_this _Baggins_."_


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## Deleted member 12094 (Sep 4, 2018)

Ow, I see what you mean now!

I don't think he could have known - not at first, at least.

We know that Gollum started following the Fellowship to get out of Moria, but he already knew both Gandalf and Aragorn and also that they were somehow linked to the Ring. Those were compelling reasons enough to follow them even without the assumption that maybe he felt the presence of the Ring too.

I'd say that in book 4 Chapter 1 "The Taming of Sméagol" the close relationship must have become clear to him:

_‘Let go! Gollum,’ he (=Frodo) said. ‘This is Sting. You have seen it before once upon a time. Let go, or you’ll feel it this time!’_​
At last in the next chapter ("The Passage of the Marshes"), it's confirmed he knew Frodo's name from his dialogue with his other self:

_‘Make the other hobbit, the nasty suspicious hobbit, make him crawl, yes, gollum!’
‘But not the nice hobbit?’
‘Oh no, not if it doesn’t please us. Still he’s a Baggins, my precious, yes, a Baggins. A Baggins stole it. He found it and he said nothing, nothing. We hates Bagginses.’_​
I must admit that I did not find any text where Frodo confirmed his family ties with Bilbo explicitly. Maybe I overlooked it?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 4, 2018)

Ha! I see we found those passages at the same time -- and came to the same conclusions.

Once again, great minds think alike!


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## Thistle Bunce (Sep 4, 2018)

Here's one possible linking...

We know that Gollum was trapped inside of Moria when the Fellowship arrived, and that Frodo sensed his nearness - footsteps that continued after the party stopped walking, and those pale eyes glowing in the dark - so Gollum might have been close enough to hear Gandalf exclaiming over Bilbo's mithril shirt and how valuable it was. The name Bilbo would certainly have gotten Gollum's attention, and the value of the mail shirt was obvious. Gollum was also probably quite close when, after Frodo had been pinned by the Orc's spear, Gandalf said to him,
_'You take after Bilbo,' said Gandalf. `There is more about you than meets the eye, as I said of him long ago.' _

Once the Fellowship (and Gollum) made it out of Moria, Aragorn finds time to tend Frodo and Sam's wounds, and discovers that valuable mail shirt. Merry even links Frodo to Bilbo by saying, _`I have often wondered what you and Bilbo were doing, so close in his little room,'_
Granted, now I speculate over whether or not Gollum was capable of inferring that such a valuable item would only have been handed over to someone with whom Bilbo obviously had a strong relationship, but I submit that in his mind, this linked Frodo, Bilbo and Baggins together. None of the other 3 hobbits had any such connection with Bilbo. Once Gollum sees Sting in Frodo's hand, it's just more confirmation that Frodo was of the hated Baggins line.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 4, 2018)

Another good catch, TB-- keep it up!


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## BalrogRingDestroyer (Sep 4, 2018)

Thistle Bunce said:


> Here's one possible linking...
> 
> We know that Gollum was trapped inside of Moria when the Fellowship arrived, and that Frodo sensed his nearness - footsteps that continued after the party stopped walking, and those pale eyes glowing in the dark - so Gollum might have been close enough to hear Gandalf exclaiming over Bilbo's mithril shirt and how valuable it was. The name Bilbo would certainly have gotten Gollum's attention, and the value of the mail shirt was obvious. Gollum was also probably quite close when, after being pinned by the Orc's spear, Gandalf said,
> _'You take after Bilbo,' said Gandalf. `There is more about you than meets the eye, as I said of him long ago.' _
> ...



I didn't know Gollum was trapped inside Moria, at least originally. Though I do wonder how he got out so easily. I mean, Gandalf kinda smashed the bridge out.


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## Thistle Bunce (Sep 4, 2018)

BalrogRD: Thanks for pointing out that I inadvertently left out the background for that. In _Unfinished Tales _, in the chapter The Hunt for the Ring, it says this:

_In D is found an account of how Gollum fared after his escape from the Orcs of Dol Guldur and
before the Fellowship entered the West-gate of Moria. This is in a rough state and has required 
some slight editorial revision._​_
It seems clear that pursued both by Elves and Orcs Gollum crossed the Anduin, probably by swimming, and so eluded the hunt of Sauron; but being still hunted by Elves, and not yet daring to pass near Lórien (only the lure of the Ring itself made him dare to do this afterwards), he hid himself in Moria. _

_That was probably in the autumn of the year; after which all trace of him was lost. What then happened to Gollum cannot of course be known for certain. He was peculiarly fitted to survive in such straits, though at cost of great misery; but he was in great peril of discovery by the servants of Sauron that lurked in Moria, especially since such bare necessity of food as he must have 
he could only get by thieving dangerously. No doubt he had intended to use Moria simply as a secret passage westward, his purpose being to find "Shire" himself as quickly as he could; but he became lost, and it was a very long time before he found his way about. It thus seems probable that he had not long made his way towards the West-gate when the Nine Walkers arrived. He knew nothing, of course, about the action of the doors. To him they would seem huge and immovable; and though they had no lock or bar and opened outwards to a thrust, he did not discover that. In any case he was now far away from any source of food, for the Orcs were mostly in the East-end of Moria, and was become weak and desperate, so that even if he had known all about the doors he still could not have thrust them open. 
It was thus a piece of singular good fortune for Gollum that the Nine Walkers arrived when they did.
_
(Mods, apologies if this quote exceeds limits, or if it is not acceptable to reference Unfinished Tales in the Lord of the Rings forum. Newbie here, trying to learn Old Gammidgy's ropewalk.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 4, 2018)

UT gets quoted all the time here. There's lots of crossover, so don't worry about it.

If you wanted to start a new thread on a particular HoME volume, I guess it would be best to put it in the designated forum, but otherwise, OK to bring anything in.

For some reason, there's no dedicated forum for UT here, so I suppose a thread specifically about that book would go in the "Other Works" forum.

Though I would avoid citing the movies as "sources" in the book forums! 

Anyway, if you're unsure about something, you can always message Erestor Arcamen, our overworked moderator. Poor guy.


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## Deleted member 12094 (Sep 5, 2018)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Though I would avoid citing the movies as "sources" in the book forums!



I will support that unconditionally, SES!


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## Thistle Bunce (Sep 5, 2018)

Since I find the movies to be excellent sources of frustration, misinformation, and just plain nonsense...I will absolutely refrain from citing them. On a dispassionate level, I can understand their broad appeal, the huge battles, the (admittedly) breath taking cinematography, and the skillful way the disparities of size were handled, but to use Peter Jackson's vision to support any argument about Tolkien is, frankly, absurd, IMHO. That would be tantamount to claiming that Tchaikovsky wrote the '1812 Overture' in order to sell breakfast cereal. (Hoary old reference, I know.) Appreciate the response and info, SES.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 5, 2018)

Let me hasten to assure you that I didn’t _really _believe you might do something like that, TB -- your thoughtful posts since coming here are evidence enough of that --it was just a sort of in-joke, for those who know what a "maggot" I have, when it comes to the movies!


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## Deleted member 12094 (Sep 5, 2018)

Having painted the movies so badly with our combined and well motivated forces...

The (only) good thing these movies did: a very broad public took a new/renewed interest in JRRT's literature. It galvanized websites like this one and others at a moment when the internet was quickly becoming commonplace. People scrambled to see what was really in the true sources.

I call that positive about these movies - even if it be the only thing. And yes: references to what is known as a deformation of literature cannot have a place here.


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## Thistle Bunce (Sep 5, 2018)

SES and Merroe: Thanks for confirming that I have landed in a nest of like-minded folks. And no fear, SES, I knew, and appreciated, why you made that statement. 

While by and large, I agree with Merroe's excellent point about the movies opening up interest in Tolkien's works, I am still wincing over a remark I overheard in a bookstore shortly after Fellowship (the movie) was released. 

There was a large display of paperback copies of Fellowship of the Ring, each with a picture of Elijah Wood as Frodo on the cover. Two young women were drawn to it, and one exclaimed to the other... "Wow! Look at that! They have the book out for that movie already." I reacted as you might expect, but must give credit to the professional manner in which the security guard behaved as he escorted me out of the store.

(And now have we hijacked this excellent question's thread long enough ? Or are side-bar convos like this tolerated here?)


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 5, 2018)

Thistle Bunce said:


> "Wow! Look at that! They have the book out for that movie already."


 




Thistle Bunce said:


> Or are side-bar convos like this tolerated here?)



A browse through threads past will answer that question!


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## Deleted member 12094 (Sep 5, 2018)

Thistle Bunce said:


> There was a large display of paperback copies of Fellowship of the Ring, each with a picture of Elijah Wood as Frodo on the cover. Two young women were drawn to it, and one exclaimed to the other... "Wow! Look at that! They have the book out for that movie already." I reacted as you might expect, but must give credit to the professional manner in which the security guard behaved as he escorted me out of the store.



That one poisoned my day. It's late here, I go to bed and am sure to have terrible nightmares now.


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## Thistle Bunce (Sep 5, 2018)

Merroe- so sorry. Not my intention to discomfort you at all. If it helps to know this, the one that did NOT make that silly statement actually listened to my rant about "young ninny-hammers" and "classic works of literature". She was still possessively clutching a copy as security walked me to the door. I consider one out of two a successful lesson. Hope you sleep well and dream of second breakfasts, cooked by someone else, and served to you in bed.


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## Barliman (Sep 5, 2018)

Thistle Bunce said:


> There was a large display of paperback copies of Fellowship of the Ring, each with a picture of Elijah Wood as Frodo on the cover. Two young women were drawn to it, and one exclaimed to the other... "Wow! Look at that! They have the book out for that movie already." I reacted as you might expect, but must give credit to the professional manner in which the security guard behaved as he escorted me out of the store.


 I "liked" this post but it's more of a love/hate thing as it brought back memories of similar encounters, not that security was ever called.



Merroe said:


> I will support that unconditionally, SES!


Most definitely. We don't want the Shirriffs called, now do we?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 6, 2018)

Of course, none of this applies to the movie forums, where pretty much anything goes, including the "versus" arguments.

But we NPW's need our space too!


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## Aramarien (Sep 11, 2018)

I think that the question, "How did Gollum know that Frodo was a Baggins?" is an excellent one, and something I never really thought about before. I tend to agree with Thistle Bunce that Gollum, who was following the Fellowship through Moria may have overheard conversations and deduced that Frodo was related to Bilbo. Gollum was most certainly drawn to the Ring and knew that it was Bilbo who "stole" his precious. 
Gandalf mentioned Bilbo when the company spent the night in the great cavernous hall when he was explaining to Sam about the dwarves mining for mithril. "Bilbo had a corslet of mithril-rings tht Thorin gave him." (FOTR, A Journey in the Dark). Frodo also called out, "The Shire!" when stabbing the the hideous foot at the door of the Chamber of Marzibal. Also, as was mentioned before, Gandalf did say to Frodo, "You take after Bilbo....."

Later, once they were just within the eaves of Lothlorien and Aragorn dresses Frodo's wound, Merry says, " I have often wondered what you and Bilbo were doing, so close in his little room." 

I've glanced through the text, and Frodo is usually addressed as "Frodo son of Drogo" or as "Mr. Frodo" by Sam, not anyone saying, "Frodo Baggins". The only thing I can think of is that Gollum made the deduction that Frodo is related to Bilbo from what he overheard, by Frodo having Sting and the Ring.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 11, 2018)

Good call on Lorien, Aramarien -- it could have been there, or in the Great Hall, as you and TB mentioned; I somehow doubt Gollum would have stuck around the Chamber of Mazarbul, after the orcs and troll showed up. 

And welcome to the forum!


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## Aramarien (Sep 12, 2018)

Thank you for the welcome, Squint-eyed Southerner!

Gollum was definitely on the outskirts of Lorien. Haldir said, "There was something in this tree that I have never seen before.... It was not an orc, It fled as soon as I touched the tree-stem. It seemed to be wary, and to have some skill in trees, or I might have thought that it was one of you hobbits..." (TTT, Lothlorien)
Gollum also said something about touching the trees in Lothlorien and said, " He climbed in those trees, and he couldn't wash the smell off his hands, my nice hands." (TTT, The Passage of the Marshes)

Throughout the chapter, "The Passage of the Marshes", Gollum usually refers to Frodo and Sam as "hobbitses" or hobbits, or of Frodo, "Master". There is nothing that actually outright says how Gollum knows that Frodo is a Baggins, so he must've deduced it.


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## Lady Legolas (Oct 21, 2018)

Also Gollum might have followed the Fellowship not only spying on them. I think Gollum also felt the power of the ring and was drawn from it's power. And followed the ring, not matter where Frodo went. Gollum being the bearer of the one ring of power for so long, I'm sure he knew that Frodo had it on him.


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## Musica (Oct 21, 2018)

Merroe said:


> Welcome here Musica!
> 
> To understand this and know of the events in detail, you would actually need to read not LOTR but "The Hobbit", in which all events are told about the quest for the Lonely Mountain and the finding of the Ring.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the welcome, Merroe! I've read and listened to The Hobbit many times and you're right, Bilbo told Gollum his full name. Still, there's no connection to Frodo in The Hobbit.



Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> But that, of course, doesn't answer the question of how he knew _Frodo _was a Baggins.
> 
> I never really thought about it before. Time for research!
> 
> ...



Yes, the fact that Frodo was wearing the ring and that he had Sting is the only evidence I've found. I think Gollum did not _know_ that Frodo was a Baggins; I think he only assumed it. In Moria, in Lothlorien, on the river, and in the Emyn Muil, no one ever _says_ the name of Baggins. In Moria, Aragorn calls Frodo "Frodo, son of Drogo." I've found no evidence at all that Gollum ever heard the name Baggins in reference to Frodo.



Thistle Bunce said:


> Here's one possible linking...
> 
> We know that Gollum was trapped inside of Moria when the Fellowship arrived, and that Frodo sensed his nearness - footsteps that continued after the party stopped walking, and those pale eyes glowing in the dark - so Gollum might have been close enough to hear Gandalf exclaiming over Bilbo's mithril shirt and how valuable it was. The name Bilbo would certainly have gotten Gollum's attention, and the value of the mail shirt was obvious. Gollum was also probably quite close when, after Frodo had been pinned by the Orc's spear, Gandalf said to him,
> _'You take after Bilbo,' said Gandalf. `There is more about you than meets the eye, as I said of him long ago.' _
> ...



All very excellent points, none of which I have ever considered before!



BalrogRingDestroyer said:


> I didn't know Gollum was trapped inside Moria, at least originally. Though I do wonder how he got out so easily. I mean, Gandalf kinda smashed the bridge out.



I never thought Gollum was _trapped_ inside Moria. I've always thought he went there with the orcs who rescued him from the elves in Mirkwood. As for the bridge, Gollum is extremely cunning and there must have been some other way out of Moria, although the book does not explain this.



Thistle Bunce said:


> BalrogRD: Thanks for pointing out that I inadvertently left out the background for that. In _Unfinished Tales _, in the chapter The Hunt for the Ring, it says this:
> 
> _In D is found an account of how Gollum fared after his escape from the Orcs of Dol Guldur and
> before the Fellowship entered the West-gate of Moria. This is in a rough state and has required
> ...



Very interesting. I have _Unfinished Tales_ but I've either never read it or read it so long ago that I've forgotten it! I must get it out and read it at once. 



Aramarien said:


> I think that the question, "How did Gollum know that Frodo was a Baggins?" is an excellent one, and something I never really thought about before. I tend to agree with Thistle Bunce that Gollum, who was following the Fellowship through Moria may have overheard conversations and deduced that Frodo was related to Bilbo. Gollum was most certainly drawn to the Ring and knew that it was Bilbo who "stole" his precious.
> Gandalf mentioned Bilbo when the company spent the night in the great cavernous hall when he was explaining to Sam about the dwarves mining for mithril. "Bilbo had a corslet of mithril-rings tht Thorin gave him." (FOTR, A Journey in the Dark). Frodo also called out, "The Shire!" when stabbing the the hideous foot at the door of the Chamber of Marzibal. Also, as was mentioned before, Gandalf did say to Frodo, "You take after Bilbo....."
> 
> Later, once they were just within the eaves of Lothlorien and Aragorn dresses Frodo's wound, Merry says, " I have often wondered what you and Bilbo were doing, so close in his little room."
> ...



I agree. I think Gollum can only have assumed that Frodo was a Baggins. There's no evidence that he had any actual knowledge.

Thanks to everyone who posted a reply to my question. All excellent! I'm a newbie here and haven't visited the forum since I posted the question in September. I make and sell Christmas crafts on Etsy and I've been working 12-16 hours a day. No, I'm not trying to advertise or promote here, which would be inappropriate. This is only to explain my absence from the forum. I don't want anyone to think that I'm just a one-time visitor. I've browsed many Tolkien forums and this one is by far the best. Everyone takes the books seriously and writes very thought-provoking posts. I also take the books seriously. I love Tolkien's works.

As for the movies, I agree they were well done, as movies go. I own them all, but I must admit that I find them irritating. I also have The Hobbit movies. I've never understood why they made three movies from The Hobbit and only one movie for each book of LOTR. I wish they had made three movies for each of the three LOTR books and that they were faithful to the books. 

Cheers . . until next time!



Thistle Bunce said:


> Since I find the movies to be excellent sources of frustration, misinformation, and just plain nonsense...I will absolutely refrain from citing them. On a dispassionate level, I can understand their broad appeal, the huge battles, the (admittedly) breath taking cinematography, and the skillful way the disparities of size were handled, but to use Peter Jackson's vision to support any argument about Tolkien is, frankly, absurd, IMHO. That would be tantamount to claiming that Tchaikovsky wrote the '1812 Overture' in order to sell breakfast cereal. (Hoary old reference, I know.) Appreciate the response and info, SES.



I totally agree that the movies are excellent sources of frustration, misinformation, and just plain nonsense.



Merroe said:


> Having painted the movies so badly with our combined and well motivated forces...
> 
> The (only) good thing these movies did: a very broad public took a new/renewed interest in JRRT's literature. It galvanized websites like this one and others at a moment when the internet was quickly becoming commonplace. People scrambled to see what was really in the true sources.
> 
> I call that positive about these movies - even if it be the only thing. And yes: references to what is known as a deformation of literature cannot have a place here.



I agree that the only good thing the movies did was to call attention to Tolkien's work.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 21, 2018)

You're always welcome here whenever you can pop in, Musica!

Eventually, there will be another version of LOTR, probably as a miniseries somewhere. I should live so long. 

The movies have been argued to death by NPW's and FAD's ever since they came out. Digging through old threads can be, um, "entertaining". Here's one:

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/index.php?threads/my-god-it-was-horrible.1191/


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