# The role and army of Turin in Sack of Bar-en-Danwedh?



## Turin_Turambar (Apr 17, 2021)

What was the number of Turin's army in this battle?


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## Hisoka Morrow (Apr 17, 2021)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> What was the number of Turin's army in this battle?


Ehh....your title and your content seem a bit...different, which's your question?


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## Alcuin (Apr 17, 2021)

If memory serves, I believe there were about 60 men with Turin and Beleg, and they were technically _outlaws_ rather than an “army”. They had been preying upon the Folk of Haleth (the Second House of the Edain) in Brethil. They were called the _Gaurwaith_, the “Wolf-men”. After killing their leader Forweg, who was chasing a young woman (probably with ill intent), Túrin declared himself their leader and set them to attacking the Orcs roaming Beleriand following the defeat of Elves and Men in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad (“Unnumbered Tears,” the disastrous fifth battle of Beleriand in which Túrin’s father Húrin was taken captive by Morgoth). He moved them to Amon Rûdh to get them away from Brethil (they were basically bandits) and to establish them in a more secure and defensible position. There they encountered Mîm the Petty-Dwarf, who surrendered his little dwarf-mansion in exchange for his life: hence Bar-en-Danwedh, the “House of Ransom”. Mîm eventually betrayed them to the Orcs, leading to the sack of Bar-en-Danwedh. Túrin was captured by the Orcs, but tracked and freed by his friend Beleg who startled him from sleep during a great storm. Túrin accidentally killed Beleg thinking he was an Orc about to torment him, then fell into a catatonic stupor when he realized what he had just done to his closest friend. The Orcs fled the storm, and the Elf Gwindor, escaped from Angband, led Túrin to Nargothrond. Túrin took Beleg’s black sword, Anglachel.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 17, 2021)

Alcuin said:


> Túrin accidentally killed Beleg thinking he was an Orc about to torment him, then fell into a catatonic stupor when he realized what he had just done to his closest friend.


As illlustrated by Gordeyev:


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## Turin_Turambar (Apr 18, 2021)

Alcuin said:


> If memory serves, I believe there were about 60 men with Turin and Beleg, and they were technically _outlaws_ rather than an “army”. They had been preying upon the Folk of Haleth (the Second House of the Edain) in Brethil. They were called the _Gaurwaith_, the “Wolf-men”. After killing their leader Forweg, who was chasing a young woman (probably with ill intent), Túrin declared himself their leader and set them to attacking the Orcs roaming Beleriand following the defeat of Elves and Men in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad (“Unnumbered Tears,” the disastrous fifth battle of Beleriand in which Túrin’s father Húrin was taken captive by Morgoth). He moved them to Amon Rûdh to get them away from Brethil (they were basically bandits) and to establish them in a more secure and defensible position. There they encountered Mîm the Petty-Dwarf, who surrendered his little dwarf-mansion in exchange for his life: hence Bar-en-Danwedh, the “House of Ransom”. Mîm eventually betrayed them to the Orcs, leading to the sack of Bar-en-Danwedh. Túrin was captured by the Orcs, but tracked and freed by his friend Beleg who startled him from sleep during a great storm. Túrin accidentally killed Beleg thinking he was an Orc about to torment him, then fell into a catatonic stupor when he realized what he had just done to his closest friend. The Orcs fled the storm, and the Elf Gwindor, escaped from Angband, led Túrin to Nargothrond. Túrin took Beleg’s black sword, Anglachel.


On the lotr.fandom site it says that the outlaws of Turin were over a hundred in that war, so not 60 men, much more.


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## Alcuin (Apr 18, 2021)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> On the lotr.fandom site it says that the outlaws of Turin were over a hundred in that war, so not 60 men, much more.


That’s interesting. I got my number for the outlaws from TolkienGateway.net, so I can’t scold you for not citing the original reference. The TolkienGateway article cites _The Children of Húrin_ as its source, and though I have a copy, it is lost somewhere in the lumber-room that my office has become. I cannot find any reference for a number of the outlaws in any of the _History of Middle-earth_ volumes. Does your reference cite a source that we can check? 

One item of note: as I poured through _Lays of Beleriand_, _Shaping of Middle-earth_, _Lost Road_, and _War of the Jewels_, I noticed how the telling of the tale evolved: At first, Túrin himself gathered the outlaws about him, but later he fell into their company and soon took leadership. 

It occurs to me that Túrin was a natural leader. He look command of the outlaws; he became a leader among the Elves in Nargothrond; and he was accounted leader of the Folk of Haleth. In only the first instance, the outlaws, did he assert his claim to leadership: in the other two, people – whether Men or Elves – chose to follow him. 

By the way, I think these were more like skirmishes, more akin to guerilla activity than open war.


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## Elthir (Apr 19, 2021)

The outlaws found that the halls of Mîm could have housed *"a hundred or more at need"*
but before this, the Petty-Dwarf seems to number Turin's group at thirty, if he is not simply generalizing about a spider that *"could ill deal with thirty wasps at a time."*

By the Spring, when Turin put on Hador's Helm and went out with Beleg, *"at first their company had less than fifty Men"*. Later, Turin gladly received both Elves and Men, but by the counsel of Beleg Turin admitted no newcomers to his refuge and *"the way thither only those of the Old Company knew and no others were admitted"* . . . but other camps and forts were established.

This is all according to the constructed long prose version of *The Children of Hurin* 🐾


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## Hisoka Morrow (Apr 19, 2021)

Maybe it's up to the stage of the battle. Wounded and logistic personnel might be left behind the combat front. Most of all,


Elthir said:


> The outlaws found that the halls of Mîm could have housed *"a hundred or more at need"*
> but before this, the Petty-Dwarf seems to number Turin's group at thirty, if he is not simply generalizing about a spider that *"could ill deal with thirty wasps at a time."*
> 
> By the Spring, when Turin put on Hador's Helm and went out with Beleg, *"at first their company had less than fifty Men"*. Later, Turin gladly received both Elves and Men, but by the counsel of Beleg Turin admitted no newcomers to his refuge and *"the way thither only those of the Old Company knew and no others were admitted"* . . . but other camps and forts were established.


These sources were from different witnesses. Don't forget it.


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## Elthir (Apr 19, 2021)




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