# Post Count Removal Trial



## Beorn

Should we have a trial at removing the post counts from posts? Yea, Nay, or Indifferent?

This is in regards to this thread.

Oh, by the way, this poll ends in 7 days...


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## Lúthien Séregon

I voted yes...having a trial period would be a better way of indicating people's reactions to having no post counter than just discussing the possibility, so that we can truly decide if TTF is better off without it.


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## MacAddict

I don't really care but I vote 'yea' anyway, so as far as my concern goes, go right ahead. 


~MacAddict


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## HLGStrider

I don't think it will accomplish anything, but we can try it.


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## Aglarthalion

Yeah, why not give it a try.


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## Celebthôl

Go for it, then it can be proven once and for all how minute in importance the post count atually is.


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## baragund

I voted 'indifferent' on the post counter thing, but I'm deeply saddened and dismayed by the discussions that led up to this.

I won't go into particulars but there seems to be an unwillingness by some to respect the 'modes of operation' and / or the viewpoint of others. If someone makes a post that somehow does not meet your personal standards, then simply ignore it and scroll past it. If someone makes a post that you disagree with, go ahead and engage in a considerate exchange of viewpoints, keeping in mind that it's perfectly OK to 'agree to disagree'.

I'll be quiet now but what I've read in the post counter thread and 'This Tolkienforum' thread has left a very bad taste in my mouth.


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## Lantarion

I don't really mind. I agree that without them a person's views might be considered more impartially, but other than that I think they do little harm; except the obvious competitive streak, which I hope is in check by now.
Although, it is fun to just watch Elgee's post count go up, up, up..!!


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## Turin

I voted that Yea because then we'll have a chance to say if we like it or not. I know I won't like it.


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## DGoeij

I agree with a trail. And one long enough for the mods to really found out if it matters.


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## Lúthien Séregon

It's been a week, and it looks like the majority of people would either like to see the post count go ( only for a trial period mostly ) or don't really mind...


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## Turin

If we take it away I think we should at least leave it on the profiles of the members.


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## HLGStrider

I think it should be left there. . .

Does it mean getting rid of the ten most section or just the numbers as appears by posts. . .?


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## Turin

I see that it has been removed, I don't really care anymore but I don't see the point. I do have one question though, when will new members get an avatar? When they've been a member for a certain amount of time?


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## Beorn

When they reach 100 posts....they won't know...they'll just have to check every so often.


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## HLGStrider

Isn't there a better way to engineer that? Couldn't theyget an alert when the pass? Will they have a title change to warn them at least?


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## Éomond

Hmm,

I don't know why, but personally, I don't like it. It feel all wierd and stuff without it. I don't know, I rather keep it. Maybe to what Turin said (I think it was Turin) about just keeping it in profiles. 
But mostly I'd rather see them kept.


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## HLGStrider

I don't like it either. I can live with it, but it feels odd. ..like wandering around with my hair uncombed or somethign.


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## Beleg

Maybe, I am only the third one who doesn't like this recent development. It seems very weird.


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## Lúthien Séregon

It looks kind of strange to me as well, seeing this kind of blank where before there was the post count, but I also think that this feeling is only temporary, and that it'll look pretty normal soon.


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## Niniel

But the post count is gone everywhere now... even in people's profiles. I thought they were to remain there, so that you could at least look it up if you really wanted to know, but they're gone everywhere. Will they return?


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## Aulë

You can still access your full post count in your profile ('all posts by this user'), and your post count minus S&B in any PM you send.


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## Húrin Thalion

And if you think it very important that people must know your post count, put it under title or deep thoughts.


Måns


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## YayGollum

Hm. I don't like to comb my hair. Why worry about appearances when the personality is so much more fun?


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## MacAddict

I hardly even notice it being gone, I don't mind a bit. I have to really try hard to notice the fact that that particular number is no longer there. I don't miss it one bit.


~MacAddict


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## HLGStrider

I ought to take up Ht's suggestion just to be annoying.


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## DGoeij

I actually had to come here and read about it to notice the dissapearance. Keep it this way I'd say.

For those who care, this was my 1173th post.


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## Lantarion

Your one thousand-one hundred-and-seventy-threeth post! Good on you mate.


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## DGoeij

> _Originally posted by Lantarion _
> *Your one thousand-one hundred-and-seventy-threeth post! Good on you mate.  *



D'oh! 1137th and 1173rd. 

I'm not even going to edit that. I was just testing to see if anyone would notice.

And Raikonnen is a LOSER! *runs*


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## Beleg

When is this trial period supposed to end?


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## Eriol

I noticed something odd... it really strikes me as weird in people who don't have avatars. In those cases I really miss the post count, and I'm not sure why. It feels so... blank. 

I think you could give the right to avatars for everyone (even newbies) if you are going to keep this.


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## Kahmûl

I definatly don't like the post counts getting turned off, I just think it's a bad idea. And I agree with Eriol in giving everyone the right to use avatars.


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## Turin

I think we should leave the avatars the way they are, people should earn their avatar, not to be rude to anyone but most of the new members just join, post a couple times and never post again, why should they get avatars? Besides thats not what this thread is about.


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## Éomond

> _Originally posted by Turin _
> *I think we should leave the avatars the way they are, people should earn their avatar, not to be rude to anyone but most of the new members just join, post a couple times and never post again, why should they get avatars? Besides thats not what this thread is about. *



Yeah, I think avatars are something you earn. I keeps people here; gives newbies something to look forward too.


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## Beorn

It'll last until 10/13. There will be two opinion polls: one on the 6th, one on the 13th.


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## Lantarion

Ack, you mean 13.10.2003! 
October 13th, in other words.


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## HLGStrider

Why two polls? Just out curiousity? What will they say? Just Bring Back Post Counts: Yes or No.

If so, wouldn't one be enough?


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## Aaragorn

post counts good
no post counts bad



(where can you find an avatar with Aragorn on it)


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## Firawyn

Bring back the post count!!!Waahhh!! I like it there. I like seeing who is really here to stey, who's been here the longest, who to go to if you're new and want someone to show you around. That would be all...


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## Dáin Ironfoot I

(Notice most of the people who demand a post count are newer members who want to increase their counts)

Anyways, can't you all look at the join date? All you'd have to do it a little bit of math to figure whos been here the longest. And mods... how has the spamming been? Lower perhaps?


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## Firawyn

If you were refering to me than you might want to take a look at the fact that you've only been around here 3 more months that I have.


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## Húrin Thalion

Well if we were to draw conclusions from the two who have showed up in this thread, we could say that it is an interesting fact that people who want post counts back are clearly American. Or wait, I intended to say that was a coincidence, but is it really?

If you were to do a serious investigation, I would make thequalified guess already now, that you would find that the number of Americans, seen relatively to the number of Europeans, have increased. I would also make the qualified guess that the forum average age has dropped. Just a little observation from my side, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong, I leave it up to you to interpret the results.

Måns


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## Beleg

> we could say that it is an interesting fact that people who want post counts back are clearly American.



Huh?  I certianly am not an American although I am 15 and am proud of it.


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## Ithrynluin

Let's stick to the point of the thread and not jump to any conclusions and needless generalisations.


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## DGoeij

> _Originally posted by Húrin Thalion _
> *Well if we were to draw conclusions from the two who have showed up in this thread, we could say that it is an interesting fact that people who want post counts back are clearly American.
> *



Yawn.

EDIT: I realized that a single 'yawn' was more than sufficient.


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## Thorin

That's funny. I'm one of the oldest surviving members of this forum and have over 1200 post counts and I would like to see them back.

Guess too many people spend their time generalizing and coming to strange conclusions.


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## DGoeij

> _Originally posted by Thorin _
> *That's funny. I'm one of the oldest surviving members of this forum and have over 1200 post counts and I would like to see them back.*



You must be one of those silverbacks Parrot referred to.  

I just thought of something, if we would call them 'Reply Dukes' instead, I'd have no problem seeing them back.


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## Bethelarien

I like the post counts. I'm not a new member.

However, yes I am American (and proud of it) and yes I'm also only 17 years old.

Still and all, just because someone's a new member doesn't mean their post count will be low, or vice versa. I was very active, and have been since I joined. My post count went up very quickly, IMHO, yet chronologically I was still a new member. It helps to show how active a member is.

Post counts should stay/come back.


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## Starflower

well ... i liked the post count, especially when i posted my first few posts, it was pretty cool seeing your post count go from 0 to 1, 2, 3, 10..20 and so on... and especially when the situation is that you can't get an avatar until you got 100 posts, without the post counts you just haev to keep count of it yourself... it doesn;t matter much anymore, but maybe it would be nice to keep the count maybe until 100, and scrap it after that....


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## HLGStrider

Did you know that they still show on PM's? I just noticed that a few minutes ago. . .it was sort of cool seeing the numbers again.

Anyway, will the poll be up soon?


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## Parrot

> _Originally posted by Húrin Thalion _
> *Well if we were to draw conclusions from the two who have showed up in this thread, we could say that it is an interesting fact that people who want post counts back are clearly American. Or wait, I intended to say that was a coincidence, but is it really?
> 
> If you were to do a serious investigation, I would make thequalified guess already now, that you would find that the number of Americans, seen relatively to the number of Europeans, have increased. I would also make the qualified guess that the forum average age has dropped. Just a little observation from my side, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong, I leave it up to you to interpret the results.
> 
> Måns *





Code:


[size=1]Here fishy, fishy,... [/size]:rolleyes:


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## Húrin Thalion

Care as little as you like, speak about generalizations as much as you like. I don't se why, I haven't stated anything really, other than what my guess is. That's not a generaliztion, that would be if I stated it like a fact. Anyway, I stand by my guess, adn I admit, I am also young, 15. I have not meant somethign bad with my guess, just made it and asked you to make whatever conclusions you like.

Måns


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## Firawyn

Who cares if I'm an American? Not that I'm dissing my country, but I'd almost rather live in Europe. Don't get me wrong, I love the US, It's just that I like th rich history of Europe.We're all people and that's all that counts.

Anyway, back on subject. I do want the post count back. I really cant explain why. I just do. I like watching myself acomplish things, and when someone says somethind like they relly know alot about this place, I can tell if that person is someone to look up to as a athority figure and a person filled with wisdom in the works of Tolkien or if they are just some moron being arogant.


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## Gothmog

> _Originally posted by Sabeen _
> * and when someone says somethind like they relly know alot about this place, I can tell if that person is someone to look up to as a athority figure and a person filled with wisdom in the works of Tolkien or if they are just some moron being arogant.  *


 How exactly does looking at some numbers help you to tell this? Perhaps you are confusing Quantity with Quality.


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## Confusticated

About the post count - I like it being gone. I hope it doesn't come back. I have a new sense that we are all on fair ground now.




Edit: I editted out all the stuff I said about George Bush because it's too out of place here... at TTF (not this thread in specific).


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## HLGStrider

Numbers do show a bit for dedication.


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## Firawyn

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> *Numbers do show a bit for dedication. *



Thank you! And it shows dedication-HLGStrider is right.


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## HLGStrider

Of course I'm right. . .when am I ever not right. ..er. ..wrong?

Seriously, I think we need a GOOD reason not to have them anymore. Not just because people may possibly look up to an undeserving member due to a post count. I have never seen anyone side with someone in an arguement due to a post count. Sometimes I think mine has done me more harm than good as far as people taking me seriously, but I don't like being taken seriously more than I have to be, so I want it back.


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## Húrin Thalion

HLG, there are no good arguments for Sweden to refuse to join the Euro, but, there is a referendum result saying that we should. Would you please scroll to the top of hte page, and see if more people wanted to keep the post counts than who wanted to abolish them? Whatever you think, a striking majority has voted that we should have a trial period, then we will see what people think about it and vote again. That is why the post counts are now gone.

Måns


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## HLGStrider

Well, I hope people have a good reason to vote for that referendum. .. otherwise it seems silly for it to be voted for. 

I'm for a trial period.

But if you look at the other poll it is nearly tied and if you count those who want the post counts turned off only in Bag End among those who want to keep it (and they do want to keep it, but just limit Bag End) on that poll Counts are WINNING.

So, if we're going straight by democracy, post counts win.

Plus only a small section of the forum has voted on these things anyway. I'd hardly consider them a vote.

No! 12 44.44% 
Yes! 13 48.15% 
Only in Bag End 2 7.41% 

Total: 27 votes 100% 

So that is fourteen votes in favor of keeping it. Thirteen for getting rid.

Hardly a decisive majority either way, but still, the majority wants the counts.


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## Éomond

I'd like to see them back. Not because to "show off" or what-ever, but what's the big deal about them? Why would you not want them? I mean, I think it's neat to see who post alot and stuff, who's here all the time. It's nice to know where "people are" to say.


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## aragil

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> *Hardly a decisive majority either way, but still, the majority wants the counts. *


 The splitting third candidate is ever the enemy of the democrat. And, as Mr. Terminator can remind you, it is the plurality, not the majority, which usually decides things in OUR democratic system.


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## Gothmog

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> *Numbers do show a bit for dedication. *


 But dedication to what?

Take a look at a couple of members.

JeffF has been here since 01-03-2002 and has 128 posts

Cian had been here since 09-19-2001 and has 522 posts.

Do their post count show the quality of their posts or of their knowledge? Check them out and let me know.


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## Firawyn

No. Bad examples. Pick someone else. Like Nenya or something.


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## HLGStrider

> Do their post count show the quality of their posts or of their knowledge?



I'd have to search for their posts. . .I know post count doesn't always mean knowledge. In some cases it doesn't mean dedication, but it's still a pretty fun number. . .and sometimes a good judge of dedication.

However, I still think you need a good reason to get rid of them. I have yet to hear one other than the spamming one, and personally, my posting hasn't gone down because of the lack of a count, and I doubt anyone else has.

We are having a few debates on format now which may be causing a slump in some posters, but that's about it.


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## Gothmog

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> *
> 
> However, I still think you need a good reason to get rid of them. I have yet to hear one other than the spamming one, and personally, my posting hasn't gone down because of the lack of a count, and I doubt anyone else has.
> *


 They serve no perpose. Perhaps if they were based on a different setting such as by a minimum post length and/or few sections counted, there might be some reason to have them. If you only want to know who is posting a lot then check out the "Top 10 Posters".


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## Feanorian

> They serve no perpose



They are nice to have. The top posters never spam, they have good things to say. Why does it matter if we have them or not. There are definitly a wide varitey of post counts and its interesting to see who posts more often the others, or those who have been here a long time but have still relatively small post counts. Most people on this forum arent motivated to spam.


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## Gothmog

> Why does it matter if we have them or not.


 This sums up the whole argument. It does not Matter. Therefore there is no reason to bother with them at all.


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## Éomond

Well, I do think we should keep them. If you don't care or don't like them, don't look at them. You could also ask "what's the point of showing the date we registered?" It feels like people just want to strip away all the extra add-ins of our profiles and junk. The only reason I would even consider removing post counts is if they slowed the forum/server, which I think they don't.

Gothmog: what is there to "bother with them at all?"


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## HLGStrider

> They serve no perpose.



This isn't a good reason to delete them IF people like them. Which people do. If they don't matter then there is no reason to delete them. If they don't matter then they are like forum color or font or smilies. We have them because people like them. 

It doesn't really matter what color the forum background is, but we still have polls to decide and people voice their opinion and we give them what they want (most of the time).

It doesn't really matter if we have a post count, so let's let the members decide if they want them or not. 

Most of us do.

I don't understand why you want them gone so badly if they don't really matter.


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## Turin

I agree with Elgee, as I have said before whats the point of deleting them? People like them, why do you want them gone so badly? They're just something fun to have, and it's not offending anyone(well maybe some people, I don't know why). Argh! It's just pointless!


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## DGoeij

Well, I prefer information that actually matters, especially if it's going to be up there all the time. I really don't like it to see that somehow appearances become or are more important than the actual content of a post. 

Since there has been an awfull lot of talk about people wanting to boost their post counts by any means necessary, just for the fun or some sort of status of higher numbers, I prefer it stays off. Especially if it turns out that during this trial posting in the, well, 'more lighthearted' sections went down considerable.


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## Éomond

I really don't think people boost their post counts for popularity, I mean, who do we know here is popular? I don't like havin those Mr./Mrs TTF but, what-ever, that's different subject.

I do like this trial period, but when's it going to end? Is there going to be some final vote?


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## Gothmog

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> *This isn't a good reason to delete them IF people like them. Which people do. If they don't matter then there is no reason to delete them. If they don't matter then they are like forum color or font or smilies. We have them because people like them.
> 
> It doesn't really matter what color the forum background is, but we still have polls to decide and people voice their opinion and we give them what they want (most of the time).
> 
> It doesn't really matter if we have a post count, so let's let the members decide if they want them or not.
> 
> Most of us do.
> 
> I don't understand why you want them gone so badly if they don't really matter. *


It is at least as good a reason as any given to keep them.

Yes people give their opinions either for OR against. 

I agree. But they can only do this if comments *against* are allowed as well as those *for*. 

This has not been proven yet. Most of the membership have not voted and the deciding polls have not been posted. I as a member am not interested in having them.

And I understand even less why you are so adamant about having something so redundant put back on the posts.


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## DGoeij

I just wondered, isn't it possible to make it optional? I'm a pro-choice kind of guy. If it's possible (I'm not really into the technical part of internet), why not?


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## Lantarion

What do you mean optional? Like that people can choose to see other people's post counts or not, or that people can choose no show their own post counts or not? Or both? 



> *Originally posted by Turin*
> Argh! It's just pointless!


Says the man who has a Kung Pow quote as his Deep Thoughts..


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## Aulë

By making it optional, you would be defying the purpose of not having the post counter.
It has been removed to disencourage needless posting to increase people's posts counts. But by making it optional, the people who do that will turn it on, and continue the needless posting once more.


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## Turin

Kung Pow's pointlessness makes it awsome! Anyway that doesn't have anything to do with this thread.

P.S. Don't forget my avatar.


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## HLGStrider

> Since there has been an awfull lot of talk about people wanting to boost their post counts by any means necessary, just for the fun or some sort of status of higher numbers, I prefer it stays off.



I have only seen this in the case of people trying to get avatars.



> And I understand even less why you are so adamant about having something so redundant put back on the posts.



I wasn't for avatars originally, and I wouldn't mind if they were taken away. I find them pointless and rather distracting and people can do offensive pictures. . .however, if I tried to have them taken away, despite them being slightly pointless, people would want to keep them for the fun of it. They're fun. Counts are fun. Location is fun. Deep thoughts are fun. Only location has a mild point to it even.



> I just wondered, isn't it possible to make it optional? I'm a pro-choice kind of guy. If it's possible (I'm not really into the technical part of internet), why not?



I kind of like this idea.


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## Gothmog

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> *I have only seen this in the case of people trying to get avatars.
> 
> 
> 
> I wasn't for avatars originally, and I wouldn't mind if they were taken away. I find them pointless and rather distracting and people can do offensive pictures. . .however, if I tried to have them taken away, despite them being slightly pointless, people would want to keep them for the fun of it. They're fun. Counts are fun. Location is fun. Deep thoughts are fun. Only location has a mild point to it even. *



Avatars are an expression of personality and individuality. Location is, or at least should be, informative. Deep thoughts are, like Avatars, an expression of personality and are as pointless or as pointed as the member wishes.

Post Counts on the other hand are a set of numbers that gives no useful information.

If Avatars and Deep thoughs were removed it would bother me no more than the removal of the post counts.


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## HLGStrider

I wouldn't mind too much getting rid of them either. However, just because I wouldn't mind isn't a reason to do it. 

If someone would mind, it is a reason to keep it.

And I think this should be left up to a poll.

Is there anyway we could make the poll appear on all forums? Like the announcments do? 

That would make it so we get more member's opinions.


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## Gothmog

I agree that it should be left to a poll. My views on this are just that, My Views and carry no more weight than those of any other member. I just have a Big mouth. 

As for making the poll appear on all the fora, I don't think that this would work. It would probably put the poll as separate threads on each which would become confusing. It may be that an announcement could be posted in each with a link to the Poll. But I cannot say for certain if this would be done.


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## HLGStrider

> I just have a Big mouth.



This applies to over fifty percent of the forum. . .not counting those who don't post.

I just think it is a good idea to get this to as many posters as possible in order to be fair.


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## Gothmog

True. 

I agree it is a good idea and I will see what can be done to do so.


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## Turin

If we do have a final poll, I think a sticky with a link to it should be posted in all of the fora on this site so that all the posible members can be aware of it.


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## DGoeij

> _Originally posted by Lantarion _
> *What do you mean optional? Like that people can choose to see other people's post counts or not, or that people can choose no show their own post counts or not? Or both?  *



Yeah, what you said Lant.


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## Firawyn

Hey I like that idea!


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## Turin

So is the trial over yet?


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## HLGStrider

Well, the poll is up. . .but I don't know if that means the trial is over or not.


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## Éomond

Uh, yeah, wasn't it supposed to be a one-week thing?


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## Bethelarien

Meh. Me no likey. Bring post counts back. Meh.


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## HLGStrider

We can always count on Bethy for an eloquently stated opinion.


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## Gothmog

> _Originally posted by Sabeen _
> *No. Bad examples. Pick someone else. Like Nenya or something. *


 I am sorry that I missed this post earlier.

Why are they bad examples?

Is it perhaps because Nenya Evenstar has been here since 08-08-2002 and has more than two and half thousand posts  And yes I know that she makes exellent posts but I know this because I have read her posts not because I have checked how many posts she has made.

But then again I could also, as you ask cite Nenya. Then you will get 0 posts.


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