# Entwives and the Shire



## Ithrynluin (Feb 13, 2003)

*Ents....a happy end or not?*

Do you think the Ents managed to find the Entwives?

Was Sam Gamgee's story a glimpse of the Entwives and could it represent a shred of hope that they will be reunited with the Ents someday?

Or do you believe that they were all destroyed when Sauron assaulted the Brown Lands (though Tolkien does allow for the possibility that some ran away to the East)?

From _The Shadow of the Past_:



> 'All right,' said Sam, laughing with the rest. 'But what about these Tree-men, these giants, as you might call them? They do say that one bigger than a tree was seen up away beyond the North Moors not long back.'
> 'Who's they?'
> 'My cousin Hal for one. He works for Mr. Boffin at Overhill and goes
> up to the Northfarthing for the hunting. He saw one.'
> ...



From _Letter #144_:


> I think that in fact the Entwives had disappeared for good, being destroyed with their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance (Second Age 3429-3441) when Sauron pursued a scorched earth policy and burned their land against the advance of the Allies down the Anduin (vol. II p. 79 refers to it2). They survived only in the 'agriculture' transmitted to Men (and Hobbits). Some, of course, may have fled east, or even have become enslaved: tyrants even in such tales must have an economic and agricultural background to their soldiers and metal-workers. If any survived so, they would indeed be far estranged from the Ents, and any rapprochement would be difficult - unless experience of industrialized and militarized agriculture had made them a little more anarchic. I hope so. I don't know.



I myself believe that the Ents and Entwives will be/were reunited someday. Wishful thinking on my side perhaps, but the evidence allows for both options. What do you think?


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## Inderjit S (Feb 14, 2003)

Reading 'Return of the Shadow', we can see that ents, or Entwives, weren't even concieved when Tolkien wrote Sam's speech. The 'tree-men' in this, could be linked to the 'tree-men' that Earendil meets in his voyages, in BoLT 2. I think it is the fate if the Ents to 'fade' or die out.

And it is doubtful that even if they were any Entwives left, if they could be approached by Ents, something that Tolkien picks up on in one of his letters.


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## reem (Feb 19, 2003)

*Ents in the Shire*

in sam's conversation with Ted Sandyman ib the Green Dragon Inn (page 58) he mentions the sighting of 'tree-men'. are those ents?? and if they are, what were they doing all the way in the shire??
reem


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## redline2200 (Feb 19, 2003)

I don't think it says for sure anywhere what they are, but it is pretty widely accepted that they are ents. And as far as being all the way in the shire, thats not really that surprising considering there is ents ( or at least Huorns) in the Old Forest (for example, Old Man Willow).

There is also an interesting argument about those "tree-men" in the shire being the ent-_wives_. Treebeard says something in the Two Towers about the entwives liking countries like the shire, so you never know.


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## Theoden_king (Feb 19, 2003)

I think that they were meant to be ents, and I can't remember any evidence suggesting that they aren't


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## Ataralas (Feb 19, 2003)

That is a great concept, ent wives. I didn't even think about that when i read the book over again. It's a different idea, though, because doesn't that conversation happen in the first book, but then the ents are brought into with the second book. This, for a person who might only read books once, probably isn't something that they would catch...So the quesion turns into, why is the apperance of ents in the first book, when first reading LOTR and have no backround with ents?


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## Glomund (Feb 19, 2003)

This has been posted before, but I will put in my take. They were not meant to be ents, Tolkien wrote the first parts of the Fellowship, then stopped for a while, and in letters, (p334) he states that ..."the Ents in fact only presented themselves to my sight, without premeditation or _any_ (my italics)previous consciousknowledge, when I came to chapter 4 of book 3." (if you do not know, he split the story into 6 books). So this means when he wrote the Shire scene, they could not have been Ents. Also, I seem to recall a statement where Tolkien says he does not know if they were Entwives(after this conection was assumed), but his personal opinion was that they(ents and entwives) would not be reunited in Middle Earth. I will try to find it or if someone else knows or can post the link to the old thread


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## aragil (Feb 20, 2003)

This has come up on these forums before, two examples being
Entwives 
and the aptly named
Entwives. 
It should be noted that the former entwives thread is actually a mish-mash of many diff't entwife threads which have been put together.

Re. the Green Dragon conversation, as I said in one of those linked threads, the Green Dragon was one of the first elements written into the story, back when Treebeard was intended to be a giant who kidnapped Gandalf (later Saruman's job):


> _From HoME, v. VI_
> There follows in the manuscript the original draft, written very roughly and rapidly, of the conversation at The Green Dragon found in FR, pp. 53 - 5 and it was scarcely altered afterwards save in little details of phrasing. The hobbit who saw the Tree-man beyond the North Moors (in FR Sam's cousin Halfast Gamgee, who worked for Mr Boffin at Overhill) is here 'Jo Button, him that works for the Gawkrogers [see p. 236] and goes up North for the hunting.' Sam's reference to '***** folk' being turned back by the Bounders on the Shire-borders is absent; he speaks of the Elves journeying to the harbours 'out away West, away beyond the Towers',' but the reference to the Grey Havens is lacking.
> Most interesting is the reference to the Tree-men. As my father first wrote Sam's words, he said: 'But what about these what do you call 'em- giants? They do say as one nigh as big as a tower or leastways a tree was seen up away beyond the North Moors not long back.' This was changed at the time of writing to: 'But what about these Tree-Men, these here - giants? They do say one nigh as big as a tower was seen,' etc. (Was this
> passage (preserved in FR, p. 53) the first premonition of the Ents? But long before my father had referred to 'Tree-men' in connection with the voyages of Earendel: II.254, 261).





> _From HoME v. VII_
> 'Yes!' laughed Gandalf. 'There are many powers greater than mine, for good and evil, in the world. I was caught in Fangorn and spent many weary days as a prisoner of the Giant Treebeard. It was a desperately anxious time, for I was hurrying back to the Shire to help you. I had just learned that the horsemen had been sent out.'


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## FoolOfATook (Feb 20, 2003)

A tad bit off topic, but this is a great chance to bring up an essay I read in the book _Tolkien and the Critics_ which talked about some of Tolkien's wordplay and puns in LOTR. The Hobbit who saw the alleged Ents was named Halfast. The writer of this essay pointed out that if you divide that name in two, you get "Half" and "ast". Think about it for a second... 

Given the care with which Tolkien created names for the Hobbits, we can be fairly sure that this was intentional...


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## Hawkblaze (Feb 20, 2003)

Wait a minute, what's all this business with Treebeard capturing Gandalf? I seriously do not remember a word of this from the book.


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## aragil (Feb 20, 2003)

Depends which book you're talking about, HB. If you're referring to HoME v. VII (The History of Middle Earth, volume 7, The Treason of Isengard) then you should read the book again. If you're referring to the Lord of the Rings, then you're correct- it didn't happen there.


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 20, 2003)

It is not in the book, at least not in the published versions. These earlier versions and drafts can be found in the HoME volumes 6 to 9 (the History of the Lord of the Rings).

EDIT: Well well, aragil beat me to it.


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## Goldberry (Feb 22, 2003)

I think the Ents mentioned at the beginning of FotR were an Entwives, and JRRT just didn't know he was being influenced by the Faerie world to write it that way.


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## reem (Feb 24, 2003)

which raises an interesting question...could you tell the difference between ents and ent-wives? i mean, they all look like trees right? so is it possible to differetiate between them or do both sexes look exactly the same? if this was the case then i would agree with you, Goldberry, and say that they were ent wives
reem


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## Goldberry (Feb 24, 2003)

It's possible Tolkien didn't know he was writing about the Entwives when he wrote 'Return of the Shadow', but subconsciously he was writing about them.

There were so many sad things about LoTR, I believe the Ents and Entwives had a happier ending.


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## Goldberry (Feb 24, 2003)

I can't remember exactly. I know the Ents could tell the difference but I don't know if other races could tell the difference.


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## olorin the maia (Feb 26, 2003)

The Entwives were described to Pippin and Merry by Treebeard:
"....the Entwives were bent and browned by their labor; their hair parched by the sun to the hue of ripe corn and their cheeks like red apples. Yet their eyes were still the eyes of our own people..."
The Entwives' appearance sounds very different from the description given of the Ents, which looked more like trees of various species.


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## reem (Feb 26, 2003)

...i don't think they were very nice to look at then
anyhow, who said that gandalf (or someother important character) predicted that ents and entwives will never be ruinited again? the fact that the word 'reunited' was used means that must have been atleast a few entwives around somewhere, but they will never come face to face with the ents...does that make sense?
reem


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## Turin (Feb 28, 2003)

*Concerning Ents*

Did the ents ever find the ent wives after the War of the Ring? Just wondering.


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## Lantarion (Feb 28, 2003)

It isn't stated, but I think not. 
After all, it was strongly implied that they were all killed off by Sauron. *sniff*


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## Niniel (Feb 28, 2003)

Tolkien didn't know it himself:


> I think the Entwives disappeared for good, being destroyed with their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance when Sauron pursued a scorched earth policy and burned their land against the advance of the Allies down the Anduin. They survived only in the 'agriculture' transmitted to Men (and Hobbits). Some, of course, may have fled east, or even have become enslaved: tyrants even in such tales must have an economic and agricultural background to their soldiers and metal-workers. If any survived so, they would indeed be far estranged from the Ents, and any rapprochement would be difficult- unless experience in industrial and militarized agriculture had made them a little more anarchic. I hope so. I don't know.


 Letters of Tolkien, no. 144.


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## DurinLongBeard (Feb 28, 2003)

Here is a thread that debates Ents and Entwives in the Shire 

Hope it helps!


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## Turin (Feb 28, 2003)

Stupid Entwives. Why did they leave the Ents anyway. They paid for there mistakes and so did the Ents. And how do Ents reproduce?


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## Niniel (Feb 28, 2003)

Readthis 
Though I still have a hard time imagining it.


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## DurinLongBeard (Feb 28, 2003)

lol hahahaha!! Thats really funny!


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## Goldberry (Feb 28, 2003)

Ahem, if I remember from the book, Treebeard said he was not bendable enough to sit down, but he could lie down.


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## Turin (Mar 4, 2003)

Well I guess no one knows the answer. Except Tolkien.


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## Lantarion (Mar 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Goldberry _
> *Ahem, if I remember from the book, Treebeard said he was not bendable enough... *


Haha, then I guess anything else than cross-pollenation as a method of reproduction is out of the question..


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## Nenya Evenstar (Mar 11, 2003)

I am weird in a certain way that I don't really _want_ to know what happened to certain things like the Entwives. I like the unanswered questions and the mystery that surrounds them and I almost hate to make a decision about stuff like this because it would destroy that "magic" for me.

I've always considered the tree-man that Hal saw to be an Ent, but a male Ent. I don't know how true that is though. I've always considered Old Man Willow and certain trees in the Old Forest to be a sleepy Ents as well. I don't think the Entwives are ever glimpsed in the stories as more than far off memories. I like to keep them that way and not really know whether or not they meet their matches or not.


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## BlackCaptain (May 23, 2003)

> 'But what about these Tree-men, thse giants, as you might call them? They do say that one bigger than a tree was seen up away beyond the North Moors not long back.
> 
> ...
> 
> 'But this one was _walking_, I tell you; and there ain't no elm tree on the North Moors



Now I know this can't be Ents because Fangorn says that the Ents don't go there. Is this some conspiracy left un-conspiritated by Tolkien?!


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## Anamatar IV (May 23, 2003)

Actually, Treebeard said the Old Forest in the Shire would be a place Entiwives would like.

If you want, also see these threads:

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9937

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10626
and

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6476


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## Lantarion (May 23, 2003)

This thread deals with this issue, as do many others like it.. 
In there I think I say that the 'walking tree' that Sam's friend or cousin saw was either a Huorn or an Ent. It couldn't have been an Entwife, because in many places it is stated that the Entwives were _all_ killed off by Sauron. 
And even if an Entwife or two had survived, I believe that over time they would have turned into Huorns, like Fangorn had witnessed happen to many of his old friends. 
And it couldn't have ben an Entling (which was another suggestion I made before), because there were (suposedly) no Entiwives around, and even if there was there were no Ents to know about them.
Phew. 

And yes, Anamatar; but it doesn't indicate whether it was an Entwife that Sam's friend/cousin or not..


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