# The Best Of The Worst



## FoolOfATook (Jan 15, 2003)

Who's your favorite evil-doer in Middle-earth? Which character do you simply love to hate? Why did I just use that stale, worn out cliche? Cast your vote! 

I'm already fairly sure that someone is going to answer Peter Jackson as "Other", so I'll just make the joke here. 

Some other possible candidates for "Other":
Ted Sandyman
Any of the Sackville-Bagginses
The Nazgul
The Mouth Of Sauron
The Goblin-King 
The possibilities are endless.


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## agarwaen (Jan 15, 2003)

What about Gothmog???

I vote him!


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## gate7ole (Jan 16, 2003)

I like Smaug better than anyone else. I can say that I pitied him in the end.


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## Arvedui (Jan 17, 2003)

I go for Sauron. He wanted to make order in the mess of peoples and kingdoms that existed in ME. 

(And THAT is sarcasm!)


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## Mablung (Jan 17, 2003)

I prefer Ungoliant with the destruction of the trees and all.


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## Lhunithiliel (Jan 17, 2003)

I love to hate Sauron!

Yes, people, THIS is the important here - "Who do you love to hate?!" . It's NOT about who the best is or who you pitty most or who you like most.....But as far as I've understood Master Took's intentions, it's about the most odious of all of them, according to you....Right?

So, Sauron is my choice. 
He is the symbol of how weakness can become power. This usually leads to frightful and horible results.
Look at him! Isn't he fearful and .... just made to be hated!


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## FoolOfATook (Jan 17, 2003)

Exactly Lhun. I voted for Morgoth- the levels of cruelty he reached in tormenting Elves that had accidently found themselves in his clutches- that alone guarantees my vote.


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## Confusticated (Jan 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by FoolOfATook _
> *I voted for Morgoth- the levels of cruelty he reached in tormenting Elves that had accidently found themselves in his clutches- that alone guarantees my vote. *


Not easy to choose between Sauron and Melkor.

Morgoth did the most damage - that's for sure, but I feel that I understand him well, and I in ways can not blame him for doing what he did. (Yes, I am evil... the secret is out ) I hate what he did though. I view Melkor as more of a victim than I view Sauron as. Overall I am left with the impression that Melkor turned evil because he himself was tortured, but Sauron slipped into evil because he liked the looks of evil... and he thought it suited him.

Sauron, now this guy's a real piece of work. I sort of view Morgoth as a big powerful and cruel cry-baby, but Sauron as a more of an evil genius type, who could have wiped out the Valar if he had been as powerful as Morgoth.
I hate Sauron, partly because in specific he was a direct cause of Finrod's death, and because of the trick he played on Gorlim... when I read that Sauron laughed and mocked Gorlim, I nearly admire his evilness (wasn't kidding up there folks... I really am evil ) but all the same I hate what Sauron did.

I love to hate them both, even though I admire them sometimes. I most hate each one while I am reading about specific evils that he did.
I'm going to go ahead and vote for Sauron because I don't understand his type of evil and his wanting to be some all-powerful Lord, whereas Morgoth just wants to ruin everything and I can understand why (though, I still think it was bad) considering what he experienced with Eru and the other Ainur.


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## Lhunithiliel (Jan 17, 2003)

I couldn't agree more, Nom!
I too think Melkor was so powerful that he just chose to use his force for evil.
While Sauron.... Well, he is not just evil! He is cunning and cruel and mean, and what is most important - he ENJOYS it! Now THAT I call true evil!

Melkor is a character that I sometimes pity, sometimes admire, sometimes don't understand... but I can't find much hatred in myself for him!


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## Snaga (Jan 17, 2003)

Morgoth is nihilistic. He just wants to mar and destroy.

Sauron is clever and cunning. That Ring plan was cunning, if eventually it proved to be flawed. But he totally fooled those stupid Numenoreans! Yay Sauron!


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## Ice Man (Jan 17, 2003)

The Ringwraiths.


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## FoolOfATook (Jan 17, 2003)

Right now (about 4:15) Gollum's in the lead, which I find interesting, especially since the debate withing the thread has focused on Morgoth and Sauron. I'm assuming that the hatred for Gollum is in some sense out of a feeling of betrayal- perhaps readers really wanted Smeagol to win out over "Precioussss"? It's also possible that the recent film is partly at work here- as Frodo found out, it's hard to hate Gollum when you actually lay eyes on him, and this perhaps increases a feeling of betrayal? Or perhaps I'm completely wrong- I'd love to hear some feedback from all of you who voted for him!

About Morgoth- the writer and philosopher Hannah Ardent wrote a famous book about the trial and subsequent execution of Nazi war criminal Adolf Eichmann. In this book she coined the phrase "the banality of evil", and in some ways I think Morgoth fits into this description. Certainly one would never catch Sauron sitting in his throne and moping when there were still Free Races to enslave. It is this almost apathetic attitude towards his "work", for lack of a better term, that makes it all the more descpicable when you read about his torture of the Elves, the treatment of Maedhros, and so forth. I hope that makes sense.


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## Maeglin (Jan 17, 2003)

Smaug the Magnificent is by far the best of the worst!


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## Éomond (Jan 17, 2003)

I liked Ungoliant, the Nazgul, and Sauron and Morgoth, and Gothmog and Durin's Bane Hehe, that's too many.
And for some reason I like Ulfang the Black and his sons.


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## Lantarion (Jan 18, 2003)

That's true, and their betrayal cost the Elder dearly in the Nirnaeth.. *sniff*
But as far as bad guys go, I'd say that Melkor was the most terrible by far. But my decision is only based on the fact that Melkor wrought so much damage during his reign, and his creations/perversions continued to defile the earth long after he was gone.. And if you think aobut it, the Balrogs, dragons and even Sauron himself came from him; he twisted the minds of Sauron and the Balrogs to become evil, and he created the dragons himself.
But I very almost voted for Ungoliant: even Melkor himself was terribly afraid of her, and IMO she would have killed Melkor if his Balrogs hadn't rushed to his aid.. Now that was one nasssty spider!


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## Rúmil (Jan 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Nóm _
> *Overall I am left with the impression that Melkor turned evil because he himself was tortured*


I find that intersting Nóm, though I'm not sure I fully understand. It would be nice if you developped that idea, it never came across to me like that.

Of course I voted for Morgoth, the Absolute Nihilist. Nóm's description is brilliant, I think, and also FoolOfATook's. Morgoth was the source of all evil, and actually loved the Void — if Spinoza is right and reality and perfection are the same, Melkor is the absolute opposite of goodness: even Sauron has no beef against the very existance of Arda, he wants to 'improve' it in his own twisted way — even if it means, in his mind, turning it into a Sauron-serving universe. Melkor actually wants it to cease to exist, thus annihilating all the good it could possibly contain in one fell swoop. Wow.


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## FoolOfATook (Jan 19, 2003)

As the poll stands now (a little before 3 AM on Sunday morning), Morgoth and Gollum are tied for first place with eight votes each, with Sauron comfortably in second place with four votes. After that, Saruman and Smaug are tied for third place with two votes, and Wormtongue, Durin's Bane and Ungoliant are at fourth place, with one vote apiece, joined by write-ins for Gothmog and the Nazgul. No one hates Shelob enough- despite doing her best to eat the protagonist of LOTR, she doesn't merit a vote... maybe people simply can't stop comparing her to her mother  I'm still curious about people voting for Gollum, I want to know if my ruminations from a couple of posts back were onto something, or just plain wrong.


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## Ecthelion (Jan 20, 2003)

I voted for Gollum, because of all the evil people, I think he is the most tricksey and smart because hes good at riddles Plus its always fun to yell at him if your mad Thats why I LOVE to HATE him.


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## Olorin3 (Jan 21, 2003)

Ungoliant. Even Morgoth could not tame her.


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## Ithrynluin (Jan 22, 2003)

Sauron, cunning and cruel and terrible. I imagine his face would have horrible features; he scares me more than Morgoth.


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## FoolOfATook (Jan 22, 2003)

> Ungoliant. Even Morgoth could not tame her.


Yeah, but Morgoth had the next best thing- a horde of Balrogs.


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## FoolOfATook (Jan 22, 2003)

Okay, right now (about 2:00 PM on Wednesday) the score stands as such:
1. Melkor/Morgoth- 9 votes
1. Gollum- 9 votes
2. Sauron- 5 votes
3. Durin's Bane- 3 votes
4. Saruman- 2 votes
4. Smaug- 2 votes
4. Ungoliant- 2 votes
5. Grima Wormtongue- 1 vote
5. The Nazgul- 1 vote
5. Gothmog- 1 vote

No one seems to hate Shelob enough.


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## redline2200 (Jan 25, 2003)

Ungoliant, because I figure she must be extremely powerful for Morgoth himself to come and ask of her assistance in something that he could not do.


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## Samweis (Jan 26, 2003)

I think you can´t compare the villains wich each other, because they are from total different origin. 

F.e. how can you compare a fallen hobbit (Gollum) with a fallen Maia (Sauron)?


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## FoolOfATook (Jan 26, 2003)

But you can compare your own personal feelings about them. The poll is asking which antagonist you "love to hate", not which is the most evil- although the enemy that you find the most evil might very well be the one you enjoy hating the most.


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## Samweis (Jan 26, 2003)

O.K. Fool of a Took,

A good villain 

has to have a frightening appearance.

has to have a sophisticated characterisation.

has to be a marvelous warrior.


I think the appearance of BALROG is the best.

The characterisation of GOLLUM/SMEAGOL is the best.

Who could beat SAURON?


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## BlackCaptain (Jan 27, 2003)

Lord of the Nazgul!!!

or the Mouth of Sauron... he just drives so much fear into me


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## BigBadWargBrady (Jan 27, 2003)

Gotta say.... GOLLUM


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## balrog (Feb 1, 2003)

i have to say the balrog, a demon purist.


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## Wonko The Sane (Feb 20, 2003)

Snaga the orc of course!!!


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## Mirabella (Feb 20, 2003)

I had to vote for Morgoth. What he did to Hurin and his family was abominable and just stands head and shoulders above anything the rest of this rogue's gallery did, IMO.


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## Wonko The Sane (Feb 20, 2003)

Question: Ungoliant was a spider right?


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 21, 2003)

Yes she was. At least she was in spider-*form*, because she was probably a spirit akin to the Ainur.


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## Wonko The Sane (Feb 22, 2003)

AAH! I so can't pick.


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## Lady_of_Gondor (Feb 22, 2003)

I must say Smaug is the best of the worst. He is evil, cunning, greedy, and in my opinion a really cool bad guy!


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## menchu (Feb 22, 2003)

Considering 'scoundrel' is rather a funny, warm label just such as 'naughty' or 'despicable', I go for Gollum.
On the other hand, I see less evil, wickedness in him (or shall I say in Sméagol?) therefore he could also be the best... *expects YayGollum to add he was the hero once again* 

[edit]

I just found an interesting quote in one of Grond's posts to question my own statement above:


> from The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, Letter #181 to Michael Straight, February 1956
> [...]Their 'damnability' is not measurable in the terms of the macrocosm (where it may work good) [...]


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## lotrobsession4 (Feb 22, 2003)

I hate them all except for Gollum- well yes the Gollum half of Smeagol is evil and all but I pity him because its the ring that did this all to him. Smeagol was originally a good guy and in TTT you see that so I feel bad for him. I hate all of them so it was hard to pick but just something about Grima makes me hate him a lot so I just voted him!!


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## Hawkblaze (Feb 22, 2003)

It is Saruman for me by far. He could have used his power to do so much good, but instead decided to join with Sauron for "power." What a loser.


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## Wonko The Sane (Feb 22, 2003)

I agree with Menchu.

Gollum is a great villian as far as the sense of the word scoundrel...
But he's just nasty, not really "evil."

As far as evil goes who can be more evil than Morgoth?

He was so mean to that one guy and his family!


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## Goldberry (Feb 25, 2003)

Gollum is the most fascinating character. I also love Smaug - something about him is so cool.


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## Elendil3119 (Feb 27, 2003)

I had to vote Morgoth. Even though he was so evil, he always just seemed sorta cool. I dunno why but he just seemed a heck of a lot worse than Sauron.


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## Annushka (Mar 14, 2003)

I don`t understand. Are you voting for the bad guys who are cool, interesting, or pitiworth. Or for the ones who are just REALLY bad? So I voted for Gollum, as the most likable and cool. But I think that the worst is Shelob. All of them (Sauron, Melkor etc.) were strong and had some aims. Maybe bad aims, but they knew what they wanted. And Shelob was just a hungry, stupid, cruel and pointless creater who thaught only of her stomach.


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## Ol'gaffer (Mar 14, 2003)

Grima is by far the most lovable to hate. His entire fate is so twisted and incredible that I just can't get enough of it, the person who he is is just so cool! Also Brad Dourif portrayed him excactly how I pictured him.


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## Idril (Mar 14, 2003)

I would say Melkor/Morgoth as I see him as the root of all Tolkien's evil. Sauron was just his henchman - or hench spirit and all the other were just victims of Melkor's evil.


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## Beleg (Mar 14, 2003)

I think its a tie between Peter Jackson and Glaurung. And i think i am dead sure on that.


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## elf boy (Mar 24, 2003)

I said Gollum probably cause I know the most about Gollum. He adds a good element to the story.


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## Wonko The Sane (Mar 25, 2003)

What about that one elf...the mean one.  He should be on the poll.


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## lotrobsession4 (Mar 26, 2003)

which elf??


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## Feanorian (Mar 26, 2003)

Maeglin of course, I was thinking about picking him too because he was an elf and he actually betrayed his own people so his evil had to be great


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## ~*Belmir*~ (Mar 26, 2003)

Oooooooh, gollum and melkor are tied! That would be my doing . Just kidding, I voted for Gollum because he is the one of the most interesting beings, he has a multiple personality disorder... he's decietful... pitiful... likes fish... and swears upon 'da precious'. He is one shady character, and what makes him even worse is he has long been corrupted by the Ring. I think the Ring should also be an option for it pocesses true evil, true deceit, and true power above all.


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## FoolOfATook (Mar 26, 2003)

The fact that Morgoth and Gollum have been neck and neck for the entire duration of the poll is something that I find extremely fascinating. I'm not sure what it means, but I've decided that it must mean something. I'm also interested by the fact that Ungoliant got three votes, while Shelob has yet to recieve a single vote- apparently people are more impressed with the destruction of the trees than with a giant spider that a gardener can go toe to toe with.


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## Wonko The Sane (Apr 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by lotrobsession4 _
> *which elf??  *



The one that was all fighting for Morgoth and stuff. He wasn't nice.

Or what about the elf that started the kin-strife or whatever...that wasn't cool of him.


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## EL GALLO (Apr 13, 2003)

What about Feanor. He is the greatest of the elves and also the most evil of them.


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## Inderjit S (Apr 16, 2003)

> He is the greatest of the elves and also the most evil of them



Feanor was considered the greatest of the Noldor along with Galadriel and I don't see how he was the most evil. People like Maeglin were a lot more evil others who didn't come into the stories. (i.e Avarin Elves)


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## Wonko The Sane (Apr 17, 2003)

I'm pretty sure that Feanor is NOT evil!!

*loves Feanor* He's great!!

Is Maeglin the one that was all buddy-buddy with Morgoth? I don't like that dude.


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