# The One Ring when Sauron was in Numenor?Or those Rings really suck



## Hisoka Morrow (Oct 8, 2021)

As title, the Numenor played Sauron like a piece of cake by their superior military, then here came a problem, how did they they deal with the One Ring? Or the One Ring, in fact, all it got was nothing but bulletting noobs rivals, unless it had the power of mind-control, not revealed by the Numenor even after the Imperial downfall. Any thought?


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## Alcuin (Oct 8, 2021)

I think we should consider that the Great Rings, the Rings of Power, could be worn and wielded _yet hidden from others._ Frodo saw Galadriel’s ring only after he had seen the Eye of Sauron in the Mirror of Galadriel, and then only because he was the Ring-bearer. Sam could not see Galadriel’s ring. No one seems to have seen Gandalf’s ring or Elrond’s, but I suspect they wore them: not wearing them would subject the rings to becoming lost, as happened to Gollum. (Arguably, the One Ring left Gollum of its “own accord,” but still, wearing the Three Rings meant that the wielders had the full powers of the objects at all times: thus the mortal danger to them should Sauron reacquire his Ruling Ring.) 

Men (and Hobbits) wearing Rings of Power became invisible. Dwarves did not. I don’t think Elves wanted to be invisible, either: one of their _primary_ motives in making the Rings of Power was to overcome the _fading_ of their physical bodies: Invisibility would certainly be a detriment to that goal! I think invisibility among Mortals is a necromantic corruption of their nature, just as the prevention of fading was, arguably, a necromantic corruption of the nature of Elves.


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## grendel (Oct 8, 2021)

I wondered about the Ring in Numenor also. Did he even have it there with him? When the world was changed and Numenor sank beneath the waves, Sauron's physical body went with it; his _spirit_ fled back to M-E. Can a spirit tote a ring along with it? If he left it in Mordor, why? Surely he would need all of his power to... do whatever his goal was in Numenor.


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## Elthir (Oct 8, 2021)

I know plenty of humans who wear rings . . . and thus I think rings of power can hide . . . as rings 

That said: Frodo (Grey Havens) saw that *"Gandalf now wore openly on his hand the Third Ring, Narya . . ."* however one wants to interpret that. 

Tolkien noted that Sauron had the One in Numenor, that Ar-Pharazon didn't know about the One, and that Sauron soon dominated the minds and wills of most ("many" in draft letter 156) of the Numenoreans.

References, letter 211 and 156


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## Phantom718 (Oct 20, 2021)

grendel said:


> I wondered about the Ring in Numenor also. Did he even have it there with him? When the world was changed and Numenor sank beneath the waves, Sauron's physical body went with it; his _spirit_ fled back to M-E. Can a spirit tote a ring along with it? If he left it in Mordor, why? Surely he would need all of his power to... do whatever his goal was in Numenor.



Good questions. If Sauron had the ring with him in Numenor, then how did the ring get to M-E if his body perished? I suppose maybe somehow the ring could have been bound to his non-corporeal form?


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## Annatar (Oct 20, 2021)

Phantom718 said:


> Good questions. If Sauron had the ring with him in Numenor, then how did the ring get to M-E if his body perished? I suppose maybe somehow the ring could have been bound to his non-corporeal form?


Yes, it's all a bit contradictory. I can't back it up with sources right now, but on the one hand - if I remember correctly - the Sil says that Sauron picked up the Ring again after his return to Mordor, which implies that it was kept in Mordor for that long.
On the other hand, there is a letter from Tolkien that (implicitly) says that the Ring was with him in Numenor and that he brought his Ring back to Middle-earth via his spiritual or magical Maia-powers after Numenor's demise, while he himself was only present in disembodied form. In this case, it is probably crucial that Sauron knew exactly where the Ring was, since his body sank into the sea together with the Ring.
How exactly this happened is, of course, unclear. Perhaps his spirit was able to get some sea beasts or sea-dwelling Ainur who served Morgoth or Sauron to carry the Ring eastward? Or perhaps his spirit could simply influence the ocean currents so that after a few months or years the Ring washed up on the shores of Middle-earth, where his minions would already be standing by to take the Ring to Mordor?


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## m4r35n357 (Oct 21, 2021)

I remember discussing this years ago on another forum, maybe Reddit . . . ?

He "took up again the Great Ring", implying he had _not_ been using it in Numenor. Overruled by "implicit" _private correspondence_ to a third party from the author - do we as readers need to allow that?


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## Hisoka Morrow (Oct 21, 2021)

m4r35n357 said:


> I remember discussing this years ago on another forum, maybe Reddit . . . ?
> 
> He "took up again the Great Ring", implying he had _not_ been using it in Numenor. Overruled by "implicit" _private correspondence_ to a third party from the author - do we as readers need to allow that?


This was possible. After all, the military power of the Last Alliance, much weaker than the whole Numenor Empire, still could take down Sauron with the One Ring latterly on their own, proving that the Numenor would consider the One Ring as a piece of cake, meaning that they didn't need to keep any eye on the One Ring at all. Thus, it's absolutely Sauron could classify the One Ring without being inspected.


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## m4r35n357 (Oct 21, 2021)

I have in my head that the One Ring _only_ affects the wearer (if not Sauron) and those with one of the other Rings of Power . . . is that right?

So, not much use in Numenor, and safe to leave behind with the RingWraiths!

Can anyone shed any light on this? I really need to start LotR soon, but the weather is still too nice


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## grendel (Oct 21, 2021)

m4r35n357 said:


> I have in my head that the One Ring _only_ affects the wearer (if not Sauron) and those with one of the other Rings of Power . . . is that right?


That depends I guess, on what you mean by "affecting". The implication in _Unfinished Tales_ is that the presence of the Ring - at that point still heavily infused with Sauron's evil will, so soon after the Siege of Barad-Dur - drew the orcs to Isildur as he returned to the North, leading to his doom. Aragorn also implied that the Ring drew the Nazgul to Frodo's location at Weathertop. And Gollum was certainly cowed by the Ring on the occasions that Frodo chose to use it to subdue him.

So my opinion, as hinted at previously, is that Sauron would probably have needed the part of his power in the Ring to coerce the Numenoreans in Numenor, i.e. he needed the Ring with him.


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## Alcuin (Oct 21, 2021)

grendel said:


> I wondered about the Ring in Numenor also. Did he even have it there with him? When the world was changed and Numenor sank beneath the waves, Sauron's physical body went with it; his _spirit_ fled back to M-E. Can a spirit tote a ring along with it? If he left it in Mordor, why? Surely he would need all of his power to... do whatever his goal was in Numenor.





Phantom718 said:


> Good questions. If Sauron had the ring with him in Numenor, then how did the ring get to M-E if his body perished? I suppose maybe somehow the ring could have been bound to his non-corporeal form?


We just went through this three days ago in another thread, “Differences between the first age and the third age”. To repeat the citation,
​One thing the Ruling Ring _definitely_ provided Sauron was a degree of indestructibility. When Númenor fell into the sea and Sauron’s first body was destroyed, he was able to regain a shape, though not an attractive one: more like a Balrog’s. (Tolkien was aware of the discrepancy of Sauron’s spirit carrying off the Ring, remaking in _Letter_ 211 that “one need [not] boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended.”) When Isildur cut the Ring from Sauron’s hand and his “spirit fled,” leaving his body to disappear or burn up or be rolled into Orodruin or whatever fate befell it, even without possession of the Ring its very existence allowed Sauron to regroup and remake a physical form.​​


m4r35n357 said:


> He "took up again the Great Ring", implying he had _not_ been using it in Numenor. Overruled by "implicit" _private correspondence_ to a third party from the author - do we as readers need to allow that?


If you’d like to pick at JRR Tolkien, to claim that he wrote one thing in _texts he published himself during his lifetime_ – i.e., “canon” – then repudiated his own _published_ work during his lifetime, I think you have taken upon yourself a very grave and difficult task. For one thing, Tolkien himself is beyond the grave. For another, I think you are gravely mistaken: I do not believe he has contradicted himself in this instance. But most of all, I believe his own words in _Letter_ 211 shows that he was himself aware of the problem of Sauron’s “spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended.” 

As for Sauron’s “[taking] up again the Great Ring,” I think you are misapprehending the meaning of the words. First, Sauron had been disembodied in the Downfall of Númenor: hence the perceived problem with his “spirit carrying off the One Ring.” Once he reëmbodied himself, which he was able to do precisely because of the continued existence of his Ruling Ring “upon which his power … now largely depended,” (see post 25 from three days ago in the aforementioned thread), he again began wearing the Ring. 

I think we can be reasonably certain Sauron had and wore the One Ring while in Númenor. For one thing, the Elves were quite secretive about the Rings of Power: Elrond makes it clear (_FotR_, “Council of Elrond”) that open discussion of them had never before occurred; and in any case, Ar-Pharazôn was not in communication with the Eldar: There was no way to warn him of his peril had the Elves even attempted to do so, since he and his grandfather before him had forbidden all communication and interaction with the Elves of Eressëa, and presumably assistance to and communication with Gil-galad as well: The King’s Men of Númenor no longer recognized the Elves as friends and allies. And to repeat post #2 in this thread,


Alcuin said:


> I think we should consider that the Great Rings, the Rings of Power, could be worn and wielded _yet hidden from others._ … Men (and Hobbits) wearing Rings of Power became invisible. Dwarves did not. I don’t think Elves wanted to be invisible, either: one of their _primary_ motives in making the Rings of Power was to overcome the _fading_ of their physical bodies: Invisibility would certainly be a detriment to that goal! I think invisibility among Mortals is a necromantic corruption of their nature, just as the prevention of fading was, arguably, a necromantic corruption of the nature of Elves.


If that observation is correct, then Sauron could wear and use his Ruling Ring without any of the Númenóreans noticing it – in which case his “[taking] up again the Great Ring” implies he wore it openly. And as I believe someone else has recently observed, the One Ring was plain, without marks or stone or decoration, though the heat of Sauron’s hand of his second avatar, the one he formed after returning to Mordor following the Downfall of Númenor, one that seems to have strongly resembled a burning Balrog, made visible the writing that Isildur transcribed, the writing Gandalf caused to appear when he threw the Ring into Frodo’s fireplace. Assuming Sauron in Númenor was not in a form with burning heat, those letters would not be revealed to the Dúnedain with Ar-Pharazôn, and _if_ he or his counselors ever even saw the Ring, it appeared “plain and smooth, without mark or device that … could [be] see[n].” (Frodo’s observation in “Shadow of the Past”.)

By the way, a fuller recitation of the passage from “Rings of Power…” in _Silmarillion_ makes this a little clearer, at least to my reading:
​Sauron … [returned to Middle-earth] in secret, … to his ancient kingdom of Mordor… Sauron had set there his dwelling long before, for he used the fire that welled there from the heart of the earth in his sorceries and in his forging; and in the midst of the Land of Mordor he had fashioned the Ruling Ring. There now he brooded in the dark, until he had wrought for himself a new shape; and it was terrible, for his fair semblance had departed for ever when he was cast into the abyss at the drowning of Númenor. He took up again the great Ring and clothed himself in power; and the malice of the Eye of Sauron few even of the great among Elves and Men could endure.​


Hisoka Morrow said:


> [T]he military power of the Last Alliance, much weaker than the whole Numenor Empire, still could take down Sauron with the One Ring latterly on their own, proving that the Numenor would consider the One Ring as a piece of cake...


The Númenóreans did not defeat _Sauron_. They terrified his armies so that these deserted him in fear. Sauron’s “surrender” was a *ruse*, and a brilliant one at that. He could not otherwise get to Númenor: he had no navy, no seapower; he was unwelcome as an enemy even the fallen Númenóreans recognized as a threat; being taken as a “hostage” rather than as a prisoner implies that he was from the outset treated well and with respect, recognized as a royal person in and of himself. 

───◊───

Here are four more threads in which this was discussed in the past:








Sauron's mode of transportation


Sauron was in Numenor at the fall, and as the continent fell beneath the sea he fled to ME. Does this mean that he can, for lack of a better term, "will" himself to wherever he wishes to be? How did he re-enter Mordor from Dol Guldur before the War of the Ring? I can't picture Sauron...




www.thetolkienforum.com












Sauron and the Ring


As it's Christmas I hope forum members won't mind if I ask a stupid question. If Sauron was a disembodied lidless eye then how could he put the Ring on if he captured it?




www.thetolkienforum.com












Scholar-sponsored discussions


Ok, here are some questions from the cottage of lost lore thread. If you have any additional quotes or thoughts, or more questions, please add them! Also, if you know that any of these topics have already been discussed, please let me know. The idea is to put together ideas and quotes and...




www.thetolkienforum.com












Sauron's mode of transportation


Sauron was in Numenor at the fall, and as the continent fell beneath the sea he fled to ME. Does this mean that he can, for lack of a better term, "will" himself to wherever he wishes to be? How did he re-enter Mordor from Dol Guldur before the War of the Ring? I can't picture Sauron...




www.thetolkienforum.com





Discussions can – and should – repeat, of course, as new information and new interpretations, not to mention new participants in the discussions, arise. But it is a well-rehearsed path.


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## m4r35n357 (Oct 22, 2021)

Alcuin said:


> If you’d like to pick at JRR Tolkien, to claim that he wrote one thing in _texts he published himself during his lifetime_ – i.e., “canon” – then repudiated his own _published_ work during his lifetime, I think you have taken upon yourself a very grave and difficult task. For one thing, Tolkien himself is beyond the grave. For another, I think you are gravely mistaken: I do not believe he has contradicted himself in this instance. But most of all, I believe his own words in _Letter_ 211 shows that he was himself aware of the problem of Sauron’s “spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended.”


Big if! I am taking on no such task. I am merely expressing a view that an author should be judged on their published works (or failing that, works ultimately _intended_ for publication in the form of a narrative, like in Unfinished Tales or HoME). To be blunt; IMO there is not even an _opportunity_ for such repudiation, unless it is made "official" (addressed to the general public), like the updated Bilbo ring story!

Therefore I do _not_ count individual correspondence as canon, and that is a personal choice. I think the letters are hugely valuable for their insights into the author's _current_ thoughts, but most useful in placing the _development_ of ideas into some sort of sequence; we all know that the ideas themselves were in a constant state of flux.

As to the grave, _all_ the great authors are dead, or will be soon  Will future generations consider the personal correpondence of Tolkien any more significant than that of Dickens, Cervantes, Hardy? Well I won't be here to find out either!


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## Alcuin (Oct 22, 2021)

@m4r35n357: It certainly was not intended as an insult; a teasing, a ribbing, but not an insult or challenge. I don’t agree with you on this particular point, though I agree with most of your other positions I’ve seen in the forum. In either case, I respect your opinion; I just respectfully disagree. 

I think it was clearly Tolkien’s _intention_ that Sauron had his Ring in Númenor, and that he used his power in it (he had passed most of his native strength into the Ring in order to dominate the wills of those with the other Rings of Power) to influence Ar-Pharazôn and his followers, the Kings’ Men. I think we can agree that Tolkien realized a discrepancy arises when we consider that Sauron’s _body_ was destroyed in the Downfall of Númenor, leaving his _spirit_ to carry the Ring back to Middle-earth. Tolkien didn’t seem to think that a flaw in the storyline, and rather bruskly dismissed it in his letter written in 1958, when things were still fresh on his mind.


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## Annatar (Oct 22, 2021)

Alcuin said:


> I think it was clearly Tolkien’s _intention_ that Sauron had his Ring in Númenor, and that he used his power in it (he had passed most of his native strength into the Ring in order to dominate the wills of those with the other Rings of Power) to influence Ar-Pharazôn and his followers, the Kings’ Men. I think we can agree that Tolkien realized a discrepancy arises when we consider that Sauron’s _body_ was destroyed in the Downfall of Númenor, leaving his _spirit_ to carry the Ring back to Middle-earth. Tolkien didn’t seem to think that a flaw in the storyline, and rather bruskly dismissed it in his letter written in 1958, when things were still fresh on his mind.


This all sounds very plausible. But I can also imagine that Tolkien thought about it only later and maybe even changed his mind afterwards, concerning the question if Sauron had the Ring with him in Numenor or if he had kept it in Barad-dur... But in this case I would also rather tend to accept as canon what Tolkien said last about it, no matter if it was only a private letter, it shows that he thought about it again to make the matter more plausible. On the other hand, Tolkien has also revised his opinion (which he already had changed in the course of time) and then changed it again, see e.g. the origin of the Orcs ;-)

In any case, no matter what he thought about it later, it shows that Tolkien was too inaccurate for the majority of the readers here. But since the Sil was never published by him (but by his son), one can't blame him for that. (However, currently I'm not sure how much is written about that in the appendices of LotR).

However, all of this (along with a few other things not mentioned here) indicates that the power of the One Ring was not just to manipulate the other ringbearers. The power of the Ring went far beyond that, especially when Sauron was in possession of the Ring.

In this context, by the way, I remember the discussion about the Dark Tower: that on the one hand it is said that Barad-dur could only be built with the help of the power of the Ring, while on the other hand this fortress was first of all built before the creation of the Ring.


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## Alcuin (Oct 23, 2021)

Annatar said:


> This all sounds very plausible. But I can also imagine that Tolkien thought about it only later and maybe even changed his mind afterwards, concerning the question if Sauron had the Ring with him in Numenor or if he had kept it in Barad-dur... But in this case I would also rather tend to accept as canon what Tolkien said last about it, no matter if it was only a private letter, it shows that he thought about it again to make the matter more plausible. On the other hand, Tolkien has also revised his opinion (which he already had changed in the course of time) and then changed it again, see e.g. the origin of the Orcs


I have argued before and reässert here that “what fits best” is the best guide for determining how to pick and choose among the variegated tellings of Tolkien’s _non-canonical_ tales.

What Tolkien published himself during his lifetime is “canon,” or at least what most of us seem to agree is “canon.” This leaves _Silmarillion_, _Unfinished Tales_, _Letters_, and the now fourteen volumes of _History of Middle-earth_ (including the one-volume _Index_ of volumes I-XII and _Nature of Middle-earth_), all non-canonical, but valuable.

It also places limits on JRR Tolkien’s musings toward the end of his life. In one clear example, _Road Goes Ever On_ describes Galadriel as exiled from Aman because of her leadership in the Rebellion of the Noldor _and_ her peremptory refusal to repent at the end of the First Age: *Galadriel was therefore banned from returning to Valinor.*

Yet in Tolkien’s later writings on Galadriel, she becomes an almost saintly figure, one he was at pains to distance from Fëanor’s rebellion. Along with this, Celeborn ceases to be a Sinda of Beleriand and becomes a Teleri of Eldamar. How shall we interpret this discrepancy? To which version of the several Tolkien presented, particularly toward the end of his life, should we adhere?

My argument is, _Follow canon, and use what fits best in the greater legendarium for the rest._ When we do that, Galadriel remains a Noldorin exile, the last of the royal House of Finwë remaining in Middle-earth, the last of the leaders of the Rebellion of the Noldor. Her lament to the Company of the Ring as they depart Lórien is heart-felt and incomparably sad: she believes her exile is permanent, and though she has rejected the Ring and will fight Sauron to the bitter end, she is convinced she will never leave Middle-earth without the severance of her body (_hröa_) and spirit (_fëa_): She will have to die to end her exile.

If you accept that interpretation, it also means that “what Tolkien wrote last” is not necessarily the correct guide to what is best to choose among the many entangled tellings of Tolkien’s tales.

As for his late musings on Orcs: whence came the Orcs that inhabited Middle-earth before the rising of the Moon and Sun if they were but the twisted descendents of Men – Men who had not yet awakened?



Annatar said:


> In any case, no matter what he thought about it later, it shows that Tolkien was too inaccurate for the majority of the readers here.


Bosh, now! That’s why we have The Tolkien Forum! 



Annatar said:


> However, all of this (along with a few other things not mentioned here) indicates that the power of the One Ring was not just to manipulate the other ringbearers. The power of the Ring went far beyond that, especially when Sauron was in possession of the Ring.


Yes. I thoroughly agree with you!



Annatar said:


> In this context, by the way, I remember the discussion about the Dark Tower: that on the one hand it is said that Barad-dur could only be built with the help of the power of the Ring, while on the other hand this fortress was first of all built before the creation of the Ring.


Sauron set the foundations of Barad-dûr using his native strength, his powers as a Maia. Though this was done several centuries before he forged the One Ring, this power was part of his strength (his natural mental and spiritual power, possibly along with what he had learned and obtained in Arda (say, under Morgoth’s tutelage)) he transferred into the Ring. As a result, the foundations of Barad-dûr could not be destroyed unless the Ring was unmade. The victorious armies of the Last Alliance cast down the tower of Barad-dûr and all its fortifications, but they could not remove or impair its foundations.

This is much akin to Sauron’s physical being. He was disembodied twice near the end of the Second Age: once in the Downfall of Númenor, and again when Isildur cut the One Ring from his hand. Yet because the Ring continued to exist, Sauron could slowly gather his strength and take a new physical form (_hröa_).

Only two things could disrupt this. The first was the physical destruction of the Ring, as transpired when Gollum fell into the Crack of Doom with it: Sauron’s power was forever dispersed, he lost his physical form and any hope of ever becoming anything more than “a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape;” and the foundations of Barad-dûr were undone, so that its “[t]owers fell and mountains slid; [its] walls crumbled and melted, crashing down.”

The other was that another creature mastered the Ring. Galadriel believed she could, but with considerable effort, overcame the temptation to accept it when offered. Tolkien says that if Galadriel could master then Ring, then Elrond could also. But Tolkien cautions that, “It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power. But this the Great had well considered and had rejected, as is seen in Elrond’s words at the Council. Galadriel’s rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve.” (_Letter_ 246; recall also Sam’s vision of “Samwise the Strong” causing Gorgoroth to blossom into a garden.)

Then Tolkien considers what might happen had Gandalf mastered the One Ring, even to the point of facing Sauron and keeping it for himself. “It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession… If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring: for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end.” (_Ibid._) Gandalf understood this from the beginning of _The Lord of the Rings_, as evidenced in his dramatic rejection of the Ring when Frodo begged him to take it.


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## m4r35n357 (Oct 23, 2021)

Alcuin said:


> @m4r35n357: It certainly was not intended as an insult; a teasing, a ribbing, but not an insult or challenge. I don’t agree with you on this particular point, though I agree with most of your other positions I’ve seen in the forum. In either case, I respect your opinion; I just respectfully disagree.


np, we're good!


Alcuin said:


> I think it was clearly Tolkien’s _intention_ that Sauron had his Ring in Númenor, and that he used his power in it (he had passed most of his native strength into the Ring in order to dominate the wills of those with the other Rings of Power) to influence Ar-Pharazôn and his followers, the Kings’ Men. I think we can agree that Tolkien realized a discrepancy arises when we consider that Sauron’s _body_ was destroyed in the Downfall of Númenor, leaving his _spirit_ to carry the Ring back to Middle-earth. Tolkien didn’t seem to think that a flaw in the storyline, and rather bruskly dismissed it in his letter written in 1958, when things were still fresh on his mind.


If he did _not_ take the ring, then that problem does not arise of course  I am about 70/30 on this ATM, as there is very little evidence that he would have _needed_ the Ring. The only instance I can think of is his "defiance" of the thunderstorm on the temple roof (whether he staged this himself, or whether he was just using his powers as a Maia to protect himself against a thunderstorm meant to intimidate humans). I think he could have done everything else without the Ring (even Saruman can daunt humans with his voice alone), and then there are no supernatural contortions required to return it.

As to canon, there are many who will claim JRRT's _final_ word on everything is canon, which is fine if you like to solve impossible puzzles, whereas I prefer to take JRRT's final _consistent_ word on everything


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## m4r35n357 (Oct 23, 2021)

Annatar said:


> In any case, no matter what he thought about it later, it shows that Tolkien was too inaccurate for the majority of the readers here. But since the Sil was never published by him (but by his son), one can't blame him for that. (However, currently I'm not sure how much is written about that in the appendices of LotR).


The First Age is represented by the first few paragraphs in _The Numenorean Kings_ in Appendix A. It is not hard to come up with a Silmarillion consistent with that 

At times it is worth reminding ourselves that our navel-gazing here is all directed at a _back-story_ to LotR (since it was never published in its own right), and the level of detail and consistency Tolkien has provided goes _way_ beyond what is necessary for that purpose.

So I am a very happy coney indeed!


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## Hisoka Morrow (Oct 23, 2021)

Alcuin said:


> The Númenóreans did not defeat _Sauron_. They terrified his armies so that these deserted him in fear. Sauron’s “surrender” was a *ruse*, and a brilliant one at that. He could not otherwise get to Númenor: he had no navy, no seapower; he was unwelcome as an enemy even the fallen Númenóreans recognized as a threat; being taken as a “hostage” rather than as a prisoner implies that he was from the outset treated well and with respect, recognized as a royal person in and of himself.


OK, me bad, let me prune it into a much clearer-Whole Numenor>Last Alliance>Sauron. As a result, the whole Numenor government would asset that the One Ring even didn't worth a little their concern at all. In addition, if Sauron's armed forces were so terrified that they even flight before any engage...could this be considered as much worse than a defeat but a total annihilation instead?


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## Annatar (Jun 14, 2022)

This YouTuber has now also addressed the issue:






It's also worth reading the comments here, for example:



> Honestly I'm most prone to thinking that it's just a matter of prose, and "taking up" the ring simply means to use it's power once again, ie for the first time since the sinking of Numenor.


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## m4r35n357 (Jun 15, 2022)

The One Ring simply *did not exist* when the Fall of Numenor (same story as Akallabeth) was written. Clearly it played no part in the story. Tolkien _could_ have retconned it into the Akallabeth, but he did not.


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## Radaghast (Jun 15, 2022)

Phantom718 said:


> Good questions. If Sauron had the ring with him in Numenor, then how did the ring get to M-E if his body perished? I suppose maybe somehow the ring could have been bound to his non-corporeal form?


Tolkien said in a letter (_The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien_, #211) that, "Though reduced to ‘a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind’, I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring".


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jun 15, 2022)

That's what a lot of this argument hinges on. I'll just say that in my own head-canon, he left the Ring at home. 😄


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## Annatar (Jun 15, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> That's what a lot of this argument hinges on. I'll just say that in my own head-canon, he left the Ring at home. 😄


If he left the ring at home, did he leave it in the drawer next to his bed or does he have a safe in Barad-dur - made of mithril with the top secret number combination 3-7-9-1?


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## Lómelindë Lindórië (Jun 15, 2022)

Annatar said:


> the top secret number combination 3-7-9-1?


Why 3791? Sounds _*very *_familiar to me for some reason...


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## Annatar (Jun 15, 2022)

Lómelindë Lindórië said:


> Why 3791? Sounds _*very *_familiar to me for some reason...


*Three *_Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
*Seven *for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
*Nine *for Mortal Men doomed to die,
*One *for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie._

Moreover, his IT security expert advised him not to use codes like "1-2-3-4"...


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## Lómelindë Lindórië (Jun 15, 2022)

Annatar said:


> *Three *_Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
> *Seven *for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
> *Nine *for Mortal Men doomed to die,
> *One *for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
> ...


_*Ohhhh....so that's where it came from! *_


Annatar said:


> Moreover, his IT security expert advised him not to use codes like "1-2-3-4"...


Hmm...I wonder who's his IT security expert? You? Or me?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jun 15, 2022)

I'm picturing a jewelry box.


Or maybe hidden in an innocuous-looking knick-knack. . .


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## Annatar (Jun 15, 2022)

Yes, he seems to be his best customer of his own merachandising products. 😁


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## Lómelindë Lindórië (Jun 15, 2022)

Annatar said:


> Yes, he seems to be his best customer of his own merachandising products. 😁


In which case, there's technically no need for an IT expert, because he knows himself too well.


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## Annatar (Jun 15, 2022)

Maybe he gave the Ring to his Mini-Me while he was away:


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## Lómelindë Lindórië (Jun 15, 2022)

Annatar said:


> Maybe he gave the Ring to his Mini-Me while he was away:


Then you gave it to me, as a token of the long time that hath passed betwixt us... 

But would I destroy it? Hmm...

_Law-iston... _(I don't know...) 

_Indeed, I am a mediator betwixt (1) the Valar, and (2) Melkor and Annatar...._


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## Gothmog (Jun 15, 2022)

The question of “Did Sauron have the One Ring physically with him during his time in Numenor?”
Hinges on the following quotes:

From Letter 211 -


> He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Númenóreans.


And -


> Though reduced to 'a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind', I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended.


 
From Akallabeth -


> But Sauron was not of mortal flesh, and though he was robbed now of that shape in which he had wrought so great an evil, so that he could never again appear fair to the eyes of Men, yet his spirit arose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and a black wind over the sea, and came back to Middle-earth and to Mordor that was his home. There he took up again his great Ring in Barad-dûr, and dwelt there, dark and silent, until he wrought himself a new guise, an image of malice and hatred made visible; and the Eye of Sauron the Terrible few could endure.


 
However, this does not necessarily mean that Sauron definitely had the Ring with him in Numenor. There is still some uncertainty surrounding the question.

In the same Letter 211 we find also -


> You cannot press the One Ring too hard, for it is of course a mythical feature, even though the world of the tales is conceived in more or less historical terms. The Ring of Sauron is only one of the various mythical treatments of the placing of one's life, or power, in some external object, which is thus exposed to capture or destruction with disastrous results to oneself. If I were to 'philosophize' this myth, or at least the Ring of Sauron, I should say it was a mythical way of representing the truth that potency (or perhaps rather potentiality) if it is to be exercised, and produce results, has to be externalized and so as it were passes, to a greater or less degree, out of one's direct control. A man who wishes to exert 'power' must have subjects, who are not himself. But he then depends on them.


 
It is possible that Sauron left the Ring in a secure place in the Barad-dur. He probably had chambers that only he could access while the tower stood. So then, is it also possible that Sauron could access the part of himself held in the Ring without being in physical contact?

The only time we know with certainty that he was without the Ring was after his defeat in the War of the Last Allience. And we know that he could not control the Elven Rings through the One Ring during that period but he was able to rebuild, or build a new, body. So he was not, it would seem, completely cut off from his power within the Ring. Now, at the time of the his defeat the One Ring was forcibly removed from him along with the finger that it was on. This would be a catastrophic severing of his physical and psychic conection to the Ring and for a time he was worried the Ring would be destroyed. As time went on he knew the Ring still existed but did not know where it was. He was able to control the Ring-wraiths because he was able to take their rings from them either before he lost the One or when he started to rebuild his body. The issue with the Ring and Numenor is, would there be a similar problem for Sauron if he chose to remove the One Ring himself?

For myself, I find the wording in Akallabeth to be telling. He returned to Mordor. Took up his Ring in the Barad-dur. Then dwelt there “until he wrought himself a new guise”. He “Took up his Ring” before creating a new body.

I think that Sauron took off the One Ring himself and placed it in a safe place as he did not need to actively control the Elven Rings while he was in Numenor and was able to access his native power sufficiently to be more that strong enough to achieve his goals.


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## Annatar (Jun 15, 2022)

Lómelindë Lindórië said:


> Then you gave it to me, as a token of the long time that hath passed betwixt us...


Ah, now I recognize you, after your name change. Had already wondered. 👻


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## Lómelindë Lindórië (Jun 15, 2022)

Annatar said:


> Ah, now I recognize you, after your name change. Had already wondered. 👻


Yet now I am no longer a Maia - I now count among the Valier! 

_How does that feel? What say you? Does that make us closer, or further apart?_


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## Annatar (Jun 15, 2022)

Gothmog said:


> I think that Sauron took off the One Ring himself and placed it in a safe place as he did not need to actively control the Elven Rings while he was in Numenor and was able to access his native power sufficiently to be more that strong enough to achieve his goals.


Interesting reasoning, but personally I'm not quite convinced of it yet.

For example, why would Sauron take off his ring and leave it in Barad-dur? That would only make sense if he was afraid that the Numenorians would take the Ring from him. But first, they didn't know about the Rings of Power, and second, I believe that Sauron was able to make the Ring invisible to others, just as Galadriel, for example, was able to hide Nenya from others, at least from mortals. Furthermore, he should have feared that the Numenorians would plunder and destroy Barad-dur. And finally, he also needed the Ring on Numenor to exert control over the Nine.

That would basically be like me taking a three-week vacation in New Zealand and leaving my smartphone and laptop at home while my door lock is broken.
And I actually would need the smartphone to plan my trip, book tickets and research information more quickly...

So I'd rather think that he had the Ring with him in Numenor, although of course it's a kind of plot hole how the Ring could come back again. As suggested in an older post, perhaps he could have influenced the ocean current in spirit form, so that his former, rotten Annatar-body, to which the Ring was still attached, was washed to Middle-earth. Or his spirit could exert control over lower (sea) beings, like a kind of possession as with the wargs or the wights, that were also controlled by evil spirits... 
In any case, it would be plausible that he could wield more power in spirit form than in the Third Age, since the Ring remained on his destroyed body after Numenor's demise and he therefore knew exactly where it was.



> He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Númenóreans.



Incidentally, I find this statement of Tolkien's particularly interesting, since nowhere else is it said that the Ring is also capable of manipulating the minds of beings who do not themselves wear a (lesser) Ring.
I explain it as Sauron being able to boost his naturally innate abilities just by wearing the Ring.

This would also fit the concept of increasing power through externalization while at the same time risking loss of control.

Morgoth has in principle done something similar by shifting more and more of his own power into his creatures and pseudo-creations...


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## Lómelindë Lindórië (Jun 15, 2022)

Annatar said:


> Morgoth has in principle done something similar by shifting more and more of his own power into his creatures and pseudo-creations...


Though I do feel Melkor shifted _more _of his power into his creations than Mairon did...am I wrong?

And is it true that Mairon was also cast into the Void? If so, when?


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## Annatar (Jun 15, 2022)

Lómelindë Lindórië said:


> How does that feel? What say you? Does that make us closer, or further apart?


Congratulations. As long as you don't rage through Arda with a 6-handed sword, manspreading in chainmail and living out your new power, I think it's good. 
😜👍



Lómelindë Lindórië said:


> Though I do feel Melkor shifted _more _of his power into his creations than Mairon did...am I wrong?


Yeah, maybe I still left more of my power in my brain than in any.... tools. 😏


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## Lómelindë Lindórië (Jun 15, 2022)

Annatar said:


> As long as you don't rage through Arda with a 6-handed sword...


Why 6-handed? What's the reference there? Music and silence are my realms as a Valie. How does that relate to Aule...?



Annatar said:


> Yeah, maybe I still left more of my power in my brain than in any.... tools. 😏


You'd be in the Void soon before you'd realise it...would you have any braincells left...? Are there braincells in the Void?


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## Annatar (Jun 15, 2022)

Lómelindë Lindórië said:


> Music and silence are my realms as a Valie.


Very reasonable. 👍


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## Lómelindë Lindórië (Jun 15, 2022)

Annatar said:


> Very reasonable. 👍


I am glad you like it - does it seem intriguing that silence also interlinks with Námo and, more specifically, his Halls?


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## Radaghast (Jun 15, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> That's what a lot of this argument hinges on. I'll just say that in my own head-canon, he left the Ring at home. 😄


This begs the question: if this is the case did he have it in Mordor when Ar-Pharazon confronted him with his army or did A-P let him go home to pack a few things? 🤔


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## Gothmog (Jun 15, 2022)

Annatar said:


> Interesting reasoning, but personally I'm not quite convinced of it yet.
> 
> For example, why would Sauron take off his ring and leave it in Barad-dur? That would only make sense if he was afraid that the Numenorians would take the Ring from him. But first, they didn't know about the Rings of Power, and second, I believe that Sauron was able to make the Ring invisible to others, just as Galadriel, for example, was able to hide Nenya from others, at least from mortals. Furthermore, he should have feared that the Numenorians would plunder and destroy Barad-dur. And finally, he also needed the Ring on Numenor to exert control over the Nine.
> 
> ...


True that he most likely could make the Ring invisible to others, but as he was going into the heart of his enemies homeland there is always some risk. Why would he fear that the Numenorians would plunder and destroy the Barad-dur? He had surrendered himself as hostage for him and his peoples. It certainly seems that there was no destruction of the Tower. What did he need to exert control of the Nine for? They were busy with the work they already had. We don't even know if they still had their own rings at this point.

Show me where the lock of the Barad-dur is broken.

I am still of the opinion that he did not have the Ring with him in Numenor. Occam's Razor cuts to a simpler way with the Ring safe in a hidden chamber in the Barad-dur where he knew the exact location and could access the part of himself bound within it. The fact that Sauron left the destroyed Numenor, traveled to Mordor, took up his Ring in the Barad-dur and only then set about building a new body for himself only makes sense if he did not have to carry the Ring with him from Numenor.

Tolkien does not say that the Ring was capable of manipulating the minds of beings who do not wear lesser rings, except those who wear it. He said that Sauron had the One Ring (which had much of his native power in it) and could dominate the minds of others. He was a Maia for dominating the minds of the Numenorians he would not need to have his abilities augmented, he would only need to have access to his native power. There was in all probability a psychic link that could only be broken by the forcible removal of the Ring such as happened when Isildur cut it from his hand.


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## Annatar (Jun 15, 2022)

Gothmog said:


> Occam's Razor cuts to a simpler way with the Ring safe in a hidden chamber in the Barad-dur where he knew the exact location and could access the part of himself bound within it.


That seems to be the core of your argument, and I consider it highly speculative and contradictory to Tolkien's letter. Nevertheless, it is of course a plausible theory, only I doubt that Tolkien had such things in his mind.

I think if Sauron had kept the Ring in a secret chamber in Barad-dur and therefore had more or less unproblematic access to its power despite physical distance, that would have been described and explained in any case. Your theory may make sense, but it implies far too many premises that Tolkien never confirmed. Otherwise it would be completely implausible for the average reader that he was so weakened in the Third Age without physical possession of the Ring. If it makes a huge difference whether the Ring is somewhere in the Anduin or in Sauron's secret chamber in Barad-dur, that would definitely have to be mentioned. And besides, this actually contradicts the statements from the letter.



> He naturally had the One Ring [...] I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended.


It really doesn't sound like the Ring was deposited in a secret chamber in Mordor.

Personally, I simply believe that Tolkien had changed his mind again by the time of the letter at the latest.
At first the Ring was left in Barad-dur (or didn't even exist as MrN. mentioned), but Tolkien later changed his mind, and then Annatar had the Ring with him in Numenor, without giving much thought to how the Ring came back.

If he had the same opinion like in the letter from the beginning, one must interpret "took up again his great Ring" in such a way that he activated certain magic abilities of the Ring again. Perhaps those that enabled him to form a new physical shape again and to control the Nazgul more strongly.

I'm not a native English speaker, but there was an interesting and quite funny discussion about this in the comments to the video I linked, too:



> - So, let me see if I understand your logic using the phrasal verb "take up." If someone is carrying a sword for a long time but doesn't use it until one day, he uses it, would you say he took up his sword? That is kind of what you are saying about Sauron and the Ring. I can't speak for British English, but in North American English, that would be an improper use of "take up." You can't take up something you already have. In other words, the Ring was there when he got back.
> 
> - yes I would use it in that way, because (and this may just be my own interpretation) but to "take up" is to use something in the way it was intended for, or with intent separate from simply having possession of it. Saying "take up your arms" to someone who has weapons means to make ready to use them, right? A distinction between possession and use
> 
> ...



This can probably go on forever...
But as I said, I would also interpret it as being about harnessing the power of the Ring again after it was brought back to Mordor from Numenor.

Anyway, I think this was one of the many cases where Tolkien either changed his mind later or where he simply disregarded certain aspects, that perhaps only became relevant later.
So it is up to us which statements we consider canonical and how we interpret it. For me personally, it makes the most sense if he had the Ring with him, but that decision is more like 60% vs 40%. 😉
And of course it also depends on how seriously one takes his letters and later remarks, which can lead to problems in several respects, for example also concerning the origin of the orcs, i.e. whether they rather descend from elves, humans or animals...
Tolkien started to philosophize about this later, which would have led to considerable inconsistencies. Or to the necessity to edit many texts again.
Therefore, in my opinion, it does not make much sense to settle on one particular theory, but must keep several possibilities open at the same time (which can be given different probabilities, but which is partly subjective), analogous to the double-slit experiment in modern physics / quantum mechanics... 😉

When you read the Unfinished Tales, you get used to different parallel versions. And yet, with each different version, Tolkien's mindset becomes clear and follows a certain direction. So, despite different possibilities, it is not completely arbitrary and always follows his philosophy, even if the details vary.
To stay with the comparison with quantum physics: There are different probabilities, but some of them are very high and exist in parallel and have similar consequences, and others are rather very improbable (but are unfortunately often taken up in film adaptations... 😜 )


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## Gothmog (Jun 15, 2022)

Annatar said:


> That seems to be the core of your argument, and I consider it highly speculative and contradictory to Tolkien's letter. Nevertheless, it is of course a plausible theory, only I doubt that Tolkien had such things in his mind.
> 
> I think if Sauron had kept the Ring in a secret chamber in Barad-dur and therefore had more or less unproblematic access to its power despite physical distance, that would have been described and explained in any case. Your theory may make sense, but it implies far too many premises that Tolkien never confirmed. Otherwise it would be completely implausible for the average reader that he was so weakened in the Third Age without physical possession of the Ring. If it makes a huge difference whether the Ring is somewhere in the Anduin or in Sauron's secret chamber in Barad-dur, that would definitely have to be mentioned. And besides, this actually contradicts the statements from the letter.
> 
> ...


Yes it is at the core of my argument along with the wording of the statement of how Sauron came to "Take up" the One Ring again. As for the meaning of "Take up", if you wish to discuss exact meaning then we must first look at British English as this is the language in which Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion as far as it went. Further, we must look at the Oxford English Dictionary in use at the time of, and prior to, the writing. My interpretation of the meaning is to Pick up a weapon or tool to make ready to use. During the various wars Britain has been involved in people "Took up arms and went to war". As for when they used the weapons that could have been months later.

As for Sauron being weaker in the third age, I have dealt with that:-



Gothmog said:


> There was in all probability a psychic link that could only be broken by the forcible removal of the Ring such as happened when Isildur cut it from his hand.


So when he removed the Ring himself he retained the link and could use most of the power in the ring. When Isildur cut it from Sauron's hand then that link was broken and he did not know where it was and could only access what it retained of his power with difficulty.

I agree that Tolkien changed his mind, he did so many times about many things in the Hobbit, the Lord of the Rings, the Silmarillion and so on. I don't see where there is a contradiction, just a different way of reading what he wrote in different places.


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## Annatar (Jun 15, 2022)

Gothmog said:


> I agree that Tolkien changed his mind, he did so many times about many things in the Hobbit, the Lord of the Rings, the Silmarillion and so on. I don't see where there is a contradiction, just a different way of reading what he wrote in different places.


👍 As indicated, I try to keep contradictory details always open in possible "parallel dimensions". The respective probabilities may be interpreted by everyone as one likes, but some arguments find more attention with connoisseurs and readers than others. In this case I would not see too much difference, because both possibilities do not show many differences in their consequence and at the same time both possibilities show more or less considerable weak points in their logic or existing description.
So this discussion is perhaps as useful as the question if Balrogs had wings (and if so, if they could fly with them or just hover or if they were just for "decoration" or purely metaphorical). In the end, it doesn't matter, but it adds to the mood no matter how you interpret it. And as for Sauron and Numenor, ultimately the One Ring must also be accommodated somehow, albeit after the fact and with open interpretation as to its physical location.

If you want to know exactly, you have to be able to read Tolkien's mind at different times, and you have to keep in mind that he constantly revised his texts and it was not uncommon that after several changes he sometimes returned to the origin or to an intermediate version...
So he was a constant tinkerer, see "Leaf by Niggle". Of course, this doesn't mean that everything is completely arbitrary; it still remains clear what he's getting at.


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## Elassar (Jun 16, 2022)

I don't know but I would say that sauron had it with him the whole time


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## Gothmog (Jun 16, 2022)

Annatar said:


> 👍 As indicated, I try to keep contradictory details always open in possible "parallel dimensions". The respective probabilities may be interpreted by everyone as one likes, but some arguments find more attention with connoisseurs and readers than others. In this case I would not see too much difference, because both possibilities do not show many differences in their consequence and at the same time both possibilities show more or less considerable weak points in their logic or existing description.


 
There are many contradictory details throughout the writings of Tolkien, I simply interpret them according to the applicability I find with them. Then again, I am only a simple reader of Tolkien. As for differences in consequence, there are none. With the One Ring on his hand or with it left in the Barad-dur Numenorians were dominated, subverted, and turned against the Valar. Numenor was destroyed and the world was changed.

I don't see any “considerable weak points”. Some differences in how the wording is to be interpreted which gives rise to a debate of some minor interest but the weakness in each is also minor.

Can Sauron unbodied move a physical object. I would be very surprised if he could not. The Valar and the Maia spent much time working on Arda before they thought of bodies.

Is there a psychic link between the part of Sauron bound in the One Ring and the Sauron that walks about that allows for Sauron to use his full power (un-augmented) if he chooses to remove the Ring and leave it behind. I don't find this to be a problem and it seems to me that as it is Sauron both in the body and in the One Ring, it is very likely that this can happen.

The issue of why Sauron is in the Third Age so weakened is a separate question. Can such a psychic link (if it exists) be severed, or at least disrupted, by any means. It is certain that the link cannot be severed except by the complete destruction of the Ring. However, it would seem that the forcible removal of the Ring such as Isildur cutting it from his hand did disrupt the link causing Sauron to be un-bodied and much weakened. That the link existed and was working is shown by the fact that over time Sauron was able to slowly build for himself a new body (though missing a finger).


Annatar said:


> So this discussion is perhaps as useful as the question if Balrogs had wings (and if so, if they could fly with them or just hover or if they were just for "decoration" or purely metaphorical). In the end, it doesn't matter, but it adds to the mood no matter how you interpret it. And as for Sauron and Numenor, ultimately the One Ring must also be accommodated somehow, albeit after the fact and with open interpretation as to its physical location.


 
All discussions on here are equally as useful as the question as to why people think Balrogs had wings. Tolkien's works are all open to interpretation, and we as readers bring our own views, experiences, and biases to them and find much applicability there. There is some interest in debating certain aspects of the works.


Annatar said:


> If you want to know exactly, you have to be able to read Tolkien's mind at different times, and you have to keep in mind that he constantly revised his texts and it was not uncommon that after several changes he sometimes returned to the origin or to an intermediate version...
> So he was a constant tinkerer, see "Leaf by Niggle". Of course, this doesn't mean that everything is completely arbitrary; it still remains clear what he's getting at.


 
If we knew exactly then there would be no possibility of debate and no need of a site such as this. Most members of this site are fully aware that Tolkien changed his mind often and even after publishing he was still not satisfied. While it is true in broad that “it still remains clear what he's getting at.” It is not necessarily true in fine. This is the place where we find things to debate.


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