# Sauron vs. Gothmog



## Maeglin (Dec 10, 2002)

Who would win in a fight between Sauron and Gothmog, Lord of the Balrogs?

Personally I think Gothmog would win, sure he was killed by an elf but he also killed the elf, no one has ever survived a fight with a Balrog, yet Sauron had the ring cut from his finger by a mere mortal man.


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## Anamatar IV (Dec 10, 2002)

It took the greatest of men and the greatest of elves (dont start an argument about this one to kill Sauron. really Isildur cut the ring from a corpse

There is no way Gothmog would contend to Sauron:

-They were both Maiar
-BUT somewhere in the sil it said Morgoth had many servants (I dont have the copy so dont have exact quotes) and the most powerful of which was his luitenant Sauron.
-If Sauron and Gothmog are both servants of Morgoth and Sauron is the most powerful of all servants then obviously Sauron wins.


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## Mablung (Dec 10, 2002)

Doesn't it also say somewhere that they were very close though? I think I remembered that from some passage or other.


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## gate7ole (Dec 10, 2002)

In a one on one battle, who knows who would win?
Sauron is no doubt the greatest Maia of all (said more than once by Tolkien). But Gothmog is the greatest Balrog. He may not have the cunningness and wisdom of Sauron, but I think that he is very capable with the sword.
But most possibly Sauron will win.


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## Gil-Galad (Dec 10, 2002)

I think Sauron will win.We shouldn't forget he is Morgoth's right hand.And Sauron had the chance to learn directly from Melkor.


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## Link (Dec 10, 2002)

Sauron is the Jesus to Melkor's God.

So, if a Balrog fought Jesus, I think Jesus would win............


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## Gil-Galad (Dec 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Link _
> *Sauron is the Jesus to Melkor's God.
> 
> So, if a Balrog fought Jesus, I think Jesus would win............ *


That is right.We made similar parallels between Melkor,Sauron and God,Jesus some time ago.If we make it again the balrog can a parallel of an angel.


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## Ithrynluin (Dec 10, 2002)

Who would win in a one-on-one? Most _definitely_ *Gothmog*.

Sauron's "greatness" and his being the second in command after Melkor,(which seems to be coming up constantly, and used as an argument for Sauron's sake) has NOTHING (or very little) to do with his prowess as a warrior. His greatness lay in his cunning, his magnificent skill as a craftsman/smith, his superior will, his dark sorcery.

Was Sauron ever sent to one of the great battles? No. Why is that? 
Because fighting as such is simply not his "thing". He will resort to coming forth himself *only* at uttermost need, when all else fails.

Remember Tol-in-Gaurhoth? Sauron ruled from behind the scenes, sending werewolves to destroy his enemies. Finally, when all were defeated, he appeared himself, and got his butt whopped by a girl and her doggie. 

Remember the Battle of Dagorlad? After a battle of immense proportions and the loss of many on both sides, Sauron _retreated_ to Barad-dur and resisted a 7-YEAR-LONG siege, ruling from the inside of his mighty fortress (which was a great achievement of his, as a Maia of Aulë, and a display of one of his greatest skills and powers), using his power through his servants, rather than facing his opponents himself. When he finally emerged from the Dark Tower, he was defeated. He failed as a warrior, his bodily form was destroyed, but the greatness of his will lived on through his marvellous creation, the One Ring.

Remember the War of the Ring? Especially the Battle of the Morannon. Why wasn't Sauron there to personally deal with his chief foes...to take pleasure in the slaying of the likes of Mithrandir and Aragorn? His eye was directed at the battlefield, the strength of his will uplifting the spirit of his minions and filling the hearts of his enemies with despair and fear.

Quite on the contrary, Gothmog's greatness lay mainly in his warrior skills, in his deadly weapons (whips of fire), and the terror that went before him. He and the other Valaraukar were always present on the battlefields and were terrible foes. 

So there - the answer to your query is more than obvious.


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## Mithlond (Dec 11, 2002)

Well Balrog's really were the fighting force in Melkor's army, i dont think they would have been used for much else.
Sauron on the other hand was more of a commander, planning battle strategies, using his sorcery to plot and deceive.

I would have to say that Gothmog would most likely have toppled Sauron in a 1v1 battle also.

Gate7ole said:


> Sauron is no doubt the greatest Maia of all (said more than once by Tolkien)


Where exactly did Tolkien say this? HoMe, the Letters? i have both but havent read each through in full.

But i rememeber quite clearly that Tolkien says in the Silm that Eonwe is the greatest Maia of all. That _'His might was surpassed by none in Arda'_. And Sauron didnt seem to mighty when Eonwe came before him after the war of wrath.


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## Ithrynluin (Dec 11, 2002)

> Sauron is no doubt the greatest Maia of all (said more than once by Tolkien)



I agree that this is nowhere explicitly stated, but I suppose we can assume from the things we read and judging from Sauron's actions and abilities, that he really is one of the greatest.
Eomwë is not the greatest Maia, but we could say that he is among the greatest. In the Sil it says: "Eonwë's might *in arms* is surpassed by none in Arda" (not even Tulkas and Oromë? Or does it mean "surpassed by none of the Maiar?").


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## Lantarion (Dec 12, 2002)

I've been thinking about that too.. But I came to the conclusion that Tolkien wouldn't have made such an enormous mistake as to leave unclear whether no being, or just no Maia could best Eönwë in strength of arms. So I say that no being, including Oromë and Tulkas, is mightier in strength than Eönwë, the Herald of Manwë. 
But I concur with Ithrynluin; although at first I was scoping out Bauglir as the winner, but it seems that he was no more than a cunning spokesman and weaver of confusion.


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## Ithrynluin (Dec 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Lantarion _
> *So I say that no being, including Oromë and Tulkas, is mightier in strength than Eönwë, the Herald of Manwë.
> *



Lanty, I find it very hard to believe that a Maia could be greater than a Vala. Surely Tulkas and Oromë are stronger/more powerful than Eonwë.
Or does the "might in arms" thing refer solely to the usage of weapons (in which case, Eonwë could be the greatest of all)? Who knows...


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## DarkLordMelkor (May 3, 2016)

_In addition..

Gothmog ~ General
Sauron ~ Lieutenant_

_Gothmog has the highest rank, therefore this and only proves overall superiority. Common sense._


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## BountyHunter (Nov 18, 2018)

Lieutenant second only to Morgoth. Meaning, if you're going with ranks here, he outranks Gothmog.


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## BalrogRingDestroyer (Dec 16, 2018)

Maeglin said:


> Who would win in a fight between Sauron and Gothmog, Lord of the Balrogs?
> 
> Personally I think Gothmog would win, sure he was killed by an elf but he also killed the elf, no one has ever survived a fight with a Balrog, yet Sauron had the ring cut from his finger by a mere mortal man.



Technically Gandalf survived the fight. He died from exhaustion/injuries AFTER the Balrog was destroyed, and he came back as Gandalf the White. Though I think he was the only one we know of to "survive" a fight with a Balrog, other than the War of Wrath, when most of the Balrogs perished.


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