# How well known is Sauron and the rings?



## Thispe (May 9, 2013)

Hello Everybody! As you can see, I'm pretty new around here :*). The Hobbit and LotR were childhood favorites of mine which I recently rediscovered. I didn't like the Hobbit-movie overly much, but I admit that it brought Middle Earth back to mind and renewed the passion.

One thing I have been wondering. How much did the people of Middle Earth still know about the rings and Sauron during the times of The Hobbit/LotR? 

I mean, the elves knew, no question. The Hobbits probably didn't. Amongst the humans of Gondor the scholars and nobles probably knew. Gondor has a pretty extensive library and the line of Stewards likely didn't forget all about Isildur ;*). What is your opinion on this? How much of the rings and Sauron was still common knowledge? And what about the Dwarves? Durin's line had a ring of power until very recently. Thorin must have seen his grandfather wearing it and it wasn't lost until Thráin was caught by Sauron (though everybody thought it lost after Thrór died in Moria). But do you think they still knew the history of it? Did they _know_ what it was? (I don't think Tolkien wrote what it actually did or what use it was to the dwarves, correct?).

I read an interesting blog post by Michael Martinez recently in which the he says that the elves kept the existence of the rings secret for a very long time and that Men, other elves and dwarves didn't know the reason for the war until it couldn't be kept secret any longer. It was on his blog but unfortunately I can't find the exact post anymore: http://middle-earth.xenite.org. But, is it possible that many of the mortal people with the exception of the rulers of that time, never knew the entire story or even most of it at all?

What are your thoughts on this? Is there any evidence on how much the respective people knew about the whole affair?


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## Starbrow (May 9, 2013)

I always had the impression that the rings were kept a secret. The people who had them didn't want anyone else to know they had them. So if they were keeping the fact that they had a ring quiet, they probably didn't talk about the One Ring and the basis of it's power much either. Imagine if it was generally known that there were 3 powerful magic elven rings around. It wouldn't take much deduction to figure out which elves were most likely to hold them.


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## Thispe (May 10, 2013)

Starbrow said:


> I always had the impression that the rings were kept a secret. The people who had them didn't want anyone else to know they had them. So if they were keeping the fact that they had a ring quiet, they probably didn't talk about the One Ring and the basis of it's power much either. Imagine if it was generally known that there were 3 powerful magic elven rings around. It wouldn't take much deduction to figure out which elves were most likely to hold them.



Well yes, but the three rings of the elves were quite a different matter. They weren't touched by Sauron, and Elrond and Galadriel used them to 'heal and preserve' their realms. They were a much more closely guarded secret than the others as Celebrimbor had to kept their existence from Sauron. That they were kept secret is even stated in LotR by Elrond during the council of Elrond.



> The Three were not made by Sauron, nor did he ever touch them. But of them it is not permitted to speak. So much only in this' hour of doubt I may now say. They are not idle. But they were not made as weapons of war or conquest: that is not their power. Those who made them did not desire strength or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all things unstained. These things the Elves of Middle-earth have in some measure gained, though with sorrow. But all that has been wrought by those who wield the Three will turn to their undoing, and their minds and hearts will become revealed to Sauron, if he regains the One. It would be better if the Three had never been. That is his purpose.



Though that is actually open to interpretation. Is their existence a secret or only their powers? Because before that Elrond tells the story of the rings and the One in detail and reveals their existence without hesitation.



> But Celebrimbor was aware of him [Sauron], and hid the Three which he had made; and there was war, and the land was laid waste, and the gate of Moria was shut.



Furthermore Gandalf tells Frodo about them quite openly when he recites the ring poem. He also says,:



> It is only two lines of a verse long known in Elven-lore:


 which to me means that at least amongst the elves the story is well known and not a secret kept by a few.

And Gandalf also says:


> The Three are hidden still. But that no longer troubles him [Sauron].


 which to me meanst that Sauron actually _does_ know about the rings and you are giving him too much credit in thinking that he would figure out who has them.

But I'm not really talking about the Three, not entirely anyway. I'm more talking about The One and the rings of the dwarves and men and Sauron generally. The elves interest me the least in this case because I already know that they know pretty much everything about the entire affair. What the other races know is far more interesting.

While searching for these passages I re-read the chapter The Council of Elrond and found more hints. Should have done that from the beginning :*).

This is part of what Glóin tells about a conversation Dáin had with an emissary of Sauron. To me it reads that amongst the Dwarves at least those closely related to the line of Durin (as Dáin and Glóin are) know of and about the rings and that Sauron gave them to them in the days of old.



> The Lord Sauron the Great, so he said, wished for our friendship. Rings he would give for it, such as he gave of old.
> ... "that you should find the thief," such was his word, "and get from him, willing or no, a little ring, the least of rings, that once he stole. It is but a trifle that Sauron fanvies, and an earnest of your good will. Find it, and three rings that the Dwarf-sires possessed of old shall be returned to you,..."



A bit later however he says,:



> ...and to hear, if may be, why he desires this ring, this least of rings.



Which means that either they only know about the rings the dwarves got but not about the One Ringe, or that they know about the One, but didn't put two and two together that this 'least of rings' could be a bit more than that. I suppose it's open to interpretation.

Then Elrond tells about the war of the ring from the very beginning, starting with the creation of the rings.



> a part of this tale was known to some there, but the full tale to none, and many eyes were turned to Elrond in fear and wonder as he told of the Elven-smiths of Eregion and their friendship with Moria, and their eagerness for knowledge, by which Sauron ensnared them.



Now here it clearly states that many knew parts of the story and the exact quote makes me think that the part most didn't know, is the one where the elves actually created the rings and not Sauron alone. Open to interpretation yet again, I suppose.

As I already thought (probably half remembered from the book), the men of Gondor know a lot, as seen by this Boromir quote here,:



> I have heard of the Great Ring of him that we do not name; but we believed that it perished from the world in the ruin of his first realm.



Though this is contradicted just a few pages later by Elrond saying,:


> For in the days of Isildur the Ruling Ring passed out of all knowledge, and the three were released from its dominion.



I am more prone to believe Boromir though, because he should know what he knows ;*).

I think of all the folks of Middle Earth, the Hobbits probably knew the least, supported by this quote by Gandalf:



> ...he [Sauron] has indeed arisen again and left his hold in Mirkwood and returned to his ancient fastness in the Dark Tower of Mordor. That name even you hobbits have heard of, like a shadow on the borders of old stories.


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## Thispe (May 10, 2013)

Ok, Starbrow made me interested in the Three after all. I have read the chapter (Council of Elrond) again and I just can't figure out if Glóin (and by extension other dwarves) knew about the Three before Elrond told them about them, or if he didn't. Are there any theories on that? The elves of Eregion were close to the dwarves of Moria, would Celebrimbor have shared that bit of knowledge or not? I mean, he did give Durin III the ring himself. Or maybe it would have come out later? I have no idea. Any theories amongst you more knowledgeable in Tolkien background? Or am I boring everybody to sleep with this topic? Hopefully it's not that bad ;*).


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## daTomoT (May 11, 2013)

I am no loremaster quite yet, but I have read the vast majority of Tolkien's work and I can say that I personally have never come across anything to support or contradict that the Dwarves knew of the Elven Three.

However, my instinct says I would hazard a guess that they were not aware of their presence. The Elves were secretive of their Three in keeping them from the eyes and knowledge of Sauron, and I cannot see how they would have benefited from sharing their work with the Dwarves. I expect it explained somewhere, but I do not know the reason for the strife between elves and dwarves as seen in the modern second and third ages. Obviously Thingol in Doriath has some dealing with them, but - 



> ever cool was the friendship between the Naugrim and the Eldar



However, that's not hugely relevant. I don't think the elves would have felt any desire to share their rings, or knowledge of them with the Dwarves. It simply seems that the Elven folk were attempting to keep the rings secret, and would not have made many aware of Celebrimbor's work.

Any follow up, and does anybody know what year the Elven Rings were created?


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## Thispe (May 11, 2013)

daTomoT said:


> I am no loremaster quite yet, but I have read the vast majority of Tolkien's work and I can say that I personally have never come across anything to support or contradict that the Dwarves knew of the Elven Three. However, that's not hugely relevant. I don't think the elves would have felt any desire to share their rings, or knowledge of them with the Dwarves. It simply seems that the Elven folk were attempting to keep the rings secret, and would not have made many aware of Celebrimbor's work.



Thanks! I think you are probably right and the Dwarves didn't know about the elven three. Though something to think about, as they had their own rings they knew about rings of power in general and according to the dwarves it was Celebrimbor or at least an elven smith who gave Durin III his own ring.



> Of this Ring something may be said here. It was believed by the Dwarves of Durin's Folk to be the first of the Seven that was forged; and they say that it was given to the King of Khazad-dûm, Durin III, by the Elven-smiths themselves and not by Sauron, though doubtless his evil power was on it, since he had aided in the forgin of all the Seven.



Now I presume the Ring was given to Durin III in good faith before Sauron revealed himself as evil. This speaks to me as a bit more than a cold friendship, or maybe it was a political move. But in any case, I think the Dwarves must have suspected that the Elves would have made Rings for themselves also. You don't generally give such a powerful object away if you don't have some left for your own use. What do you think?




daTomoT said:


> Any follow up, and does anybody know what year the Elven Rings were created?



This is actually quite interesting. A quick timeline from the Appendix B:

1500 SA: The Elven-Smiths are instructed by Sauron and begin the forging of the first Rings.
1590 SA: The Three are completed.
1600 SA: Sauron forges the One and Celebrimbor figurs out he is evil
1693 SA: The war begins and the Three are hidden.

If you look at this timeline you can see that the Three were made before Celebrimbor figured out that Sauron was evil. Is there any conclusive quote in any writings that shows that the Three were kept _secret_, or did Sauron actually know of their existence fairly early on but they were _hidden_ from him? Anyone know?


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## daTomoT (May 12, 2013)

Thispe said:


> according to the dwarves it was Celebrimbor or at least an elven smith who gave Durin III his own ring.
> 
> [...]
> 
> ...



Indeed, the ring of Durin was given to that line by the Mírdain of Eregion who were the jewel smiths there. Celebrimbor being of Eregion, I assume that he oversaw the working of that ring even if he did not make it with his own hands. Still, though, whatever the motives for this gift, I doubt that Celebrimbor felt it necessary to bring up the Elven Three in dealing with Durin. It is also so that whilst it was made by Celebrimbor, the ring of Durin was tainted by Sauron.

Regarding your second comment, thatis of interest to me. I did a little research online and found this passage on http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/r/ringsofpower.html



> Unknown to the Mírdain, 'Annatar' was none other than the Dark Lord Sauron. In the fires of Mount Doom in the dark land of Mordor, he forged a Ring of his own, to enslave the holders of the other Rings of Power. Filled with much of his own native power, this was the Ruling Ring, the One Ring that would make him Lord of all the Rings. But Sauron had not reckoned on the Elves forging their own Rings of Power; as he took up the One Ring for the first time, they became aware of it, and took off their own Rings to foil his ambition.
> 
> Sauron in his anger swept out of Mordor with a great army. The land of Eregion was overwhelmed and destroyed and Celebrimbor was slain. The Three Rings of the Elves had already been sent away, but the Dark Lord claimed the remaining Rings of Power. Nine of these he used to subvert nine Men to his cause; this was the origin of the Nazgûl or Ringwraiths. Seven he gave to the Dwarves with the same purpose, though with much less success, as the Dwarves proved resistant to their magic.



This seems to me as though Sauron did indeed know of Narya, Nenya and Vilya; and that their loss angered him, that he destroyed Eregion. Perhaps some other has more knowledge of this, whether Sauron truly knew of the Three, or whether Celebrimbor in making them kept them secret from their tutor of ring-lore. I do not know. It depends somewhat on who instigated the war. If it were the elves, then they would have sent their mighty three away in fear of Sauron. However, if it were Sauron, knowing that he was found out, I expect that he began the war to gain the rings. Perhaps another can bring more light.


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## Bucky (May 15, 2013)

Reread 'The Council of Elrond' again...

Gloin states: 'What of the Elven Rings?" I see elf-lords here..' Will they not speak? Great rings they are.. etc... (paraphrase)

Elrond replies: "This much I can only say in this hour: They are not idle, but their strength is not in power, yada yada yada."

So, it certainly appears Gloin knew beforehand about them.

Plus, by nature, the poem, 'Three Rings for the Elves' kind of gives the history of the Rings, no? ;*)


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