# Beren and Luthien: the movie



## RangerStryder

Do you think theres such a possibilities?

Whats your input in this matter if it comes to pass?


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## Elthir

The story is touched upon in The Lord of the Rings, but the Tolkien Estate holds the rights to The Silmarillion and The History of Middle-Earth books (though technically they seem to have been used for Jackson's project, to help with the creation of the invented Neo-Elvish I would guess), and the Estate doesn't seem to be ready to allow any films to use these sources. Actually, there is no complete and 'updated' long prose version of this tale, though someone could surely base a film on the latest extant short form...

... again if they had the rights 

For me, I'm not a fan of Jackson (not that you mentioned him) nor his films based on The Lord of the Rings, so in the realm of 'possibility' I can at least give my opinion that I would not want him anywhere near the project.


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## HLGStrider

Of all the stories outside of the Lord of the Rings, I think it has the most potential as a film (except for the Hobbit which is already being made), simply because the ending is mostly palatable (The Children of Hurin has a very hard ending, and while the Lay of Luthien's ending is "bittersweet" it still passes by as "happy" as far as I'm concerned.). 

There isn't a ton to go on. Most of the dialogue would have to be written from scratch which would make for a lot of opportunity for the screen writer to really screw things up. Still, I can imagine it done well . .. and I can also imagine it done very poorly.


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## Prince of Cats

I think there'd be a lot of backstory necessary to give to viewers to understand all that's going on. That said, I think it could make an awesome movie. You would get to know and love Beren as he lives as an 'outlaw' or rebel in occupied land and such. If done well, passing through the cloak of Melian could be a good scene  And being speechless at the sight of Luthien etc etc, the forbidden love etc ...

One of his best stories, for sure 

I think a lot of LoTR (most?) fans though know nothing of the issue of the silmarils and who Morgoth is/was. The fight with Sauron could be cool though as it makes that temporal connection with the familiar movies


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## HLGStrider

Some backstory would be good for Beren, but I think it could be done in short clips with a lot of visual implication. 

For instance, Morgoth's history does not need to be explained in great detail. The movie going public is used to the archetypal villain and there are plenty of things that the guy could be surrounded with to make him apparent as such. We didn't need to know Darth Vader killed off younglings at the begining of episode IV, we just needed him to walk on stage with that Dark Helmet thing going on. Show Morgoth surrounded by Orcs and evil men, show those evil men run out yelling evil war chants, show Beren stumble onto his father's body and watch him sob, stricken with grief, show a few clips of him engaging in gurilla warfare against evil and then running for his life, show him stumble into the peaceful Elven forest and collapse, let him wake up to the most beautiful woman he has ever seen. . . I think you have the base work for the story right there without a lot of boring exposition. 

Films are a visual medium. You want to show, not tell, as much as possible.


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## YayGollum

Sure, displaying the character's roles would be easy without having to explain everything about that The Silmarillion book, but there'd be plenty of other stuff to confuse people. ---> Where are they? This looks like just another random fantasy with the name "Middle Earth" attached, so that people go to see the thing. There's no consistency. Oh, yeah. There was that one Sauron character, but that can't be the same guy. He was a giant eye. The One Ring thing always brought him back to life, so that must be his true form. Oh. Okay. Maybe he just didn't want to show it. But still. What's with this Morgoth character? He's supposed to be scarier than Sauron, but they don't even get rid of him? What, they're just trying to leave the ending open for Beren and Luthien to go kill him in the sequel? 

Anyways, I'm more of a fan of that television series to show all of Tolkien's other stories.


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## HLGStrider

The more I think about it the more ideas I get for scenes, ways to explain things without having characters or a disembodied narrator monologuing (Is that a word? I can't get a spelling the computer likes of it which generally means I just made up a word without knowing it) endlessly. It's a very doable concept. 

Melian is a character I would use a lot more in a film version simply because her presence as a knowledgeable-supernatural-power-behind-Thingol's throne would be very useful in forcing information into dialogue.

For example, she could give him a lecture behind the scenes about how he should "never have sent that Man after the Silmaril. You know the curse that touches those jewels, how much havoc they have wrecked upon the world, how they have destroyed all they have touched. They are bound to the doom of Feanor, to his ambition and greed, and now you have bound yourself and your daughter to their fate, and in doing so you have bound us all to the very one you sought to rid yourself of, for Beren will not so easily be put aside. His blood is on your hands." 

Written without a lot of thought there. I don't generally do screenplays. 

I would alos like to see it begin with aerial shots of forest ending upon the home of Thingol where Melian is explaining some back story to her young daughter, perhaps involving the differences between men and elves. How only a brave few still fight the good fight against the evils of Morgoth. How only Melian's Girdle (the name of which would simply have to be changed because to me that always invokes lingeree rather than a powerful band of magic) protects their home and people. Since this tale does involve a lot of old style fairy magic it might also be worth showing Melian coaching her daughter in some hair growing type techniques that will come in handy later. . .

As much as I don't want Melian to be reduced to the Elven Enchantress, I think it would be easiest only to hint at her deeper, Maia self. 

Anyway, lots of potential, if I may repeat myself.


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## HLGStrider

YayGollum said:


> Sure, displaying the character's roles would be easy without having to explain everything about that The Silmarillion book, but there'd be plenty of other stuff to confuse people. ---> Where are they? This looks like just another random fantasy with the name "Middle Earth" attached, so that people go to see the thing. There's no consistency. Oh, yeah. There was that one Sauron character, but that can't be the same guy. He was a giant eye. The One Ring thing always brought him back to life, so that must be his true form. Oh. Okay. Maybe he just didn't want to show it. But still. What's with this Morgoth character? He's supposed to be scarier than Sauron, but they don't even get rid of him? What, they're just trying to leave the ending open for Beren and Luthien to go kill him in the sequel?
> 
> Anyways, I'm more of a fan of that television series to show all of Tolkien's other stories.



Most of those problems are caused by people who would see first movies before this movie without reading the books in between. I wouldn't be aiming for that audience personally. I think it would be aimed at either people who had read the books or people who were completely new to the world itself. 

I know the Jackson films are too big a phenomena to ignore, but I also know I'm never going to be pegged to write this screen play, so I can simply fantasize.

The Sauron problem has a few ways to get around. I would suggest calling him Gorthaur rather than Sauron, perhaps.


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## e.Blackstar

I would love to see it as a movie, but I have a feeling it would get heavily tainted by Hollywood.


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## RangerStryder

Do you think in all whats been said that...that story can be squezzed in a 3 or 3.5 hrs. or the back story is necessary so we need to divide it into a 2 movies just like the Hobbit. 

Ohhh and I would like to see how they make Huan for its already a story in itself.


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## Illuin

> by Prince of Cats
> _I think there'd be a lot of backstory necessary to give to viewers to understand all that's going on._


 

In The Fellowship of The Ring (Extended Edition); the narration at the beginning (by Galadriel) manages to thoroughly explain quite a bit of back-story in under ten minutes. I think a similar approach would work just fine. Also; I personally still believe the entire book can be brought to the screen when CG technology becomes more advanced. And if I had half of the money those greedy Wall Street idiots had; I’d be on that project right now.


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## Firawyn

One could follow this line of thought for every Middle Earth work...why don't they just buy all the rights, and spent the next five years (at least) turning it into a TV show...all Tolkien's work as a TV series would be great. 

If they can do Star Trek, they can do Middle Earth. 

Hell, HBO already bought rights to GRR Martin's SOIAF series to make into a TV show, why not the Sil, Book of Lost Tales, etc?


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## Alcuin

It looks to me as if _Children of Húrin_ was a preparation for a movie treatment in many ways, although the clear intention of Christopher Tolkien was to set into one coherent story of his father’s First Age tales the one on which more was written than any other. I think the Tale of Beren and Lúthien is older, but I cannot say whether it is in more or less completion than _Children of Húrin_: my supposition would have to be that it is less complete, and that it has more loose ends, despite its length and longevity among the tales.


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## Illuin

> by Alcuin
> _my supposition would have to be that it is less complete, and that it has more loose ends, despite its length and longevity among the tales_


 
I think you are right. CT did a nice job with _Children of Húrin_. I would love to see the same thing done with _Beren and Lúthien_. I know that he had such great love and respect for his father; but I was always curious why he didn’t carry his father’s work further; with his own ideas. My guess is that there is similar talent there if his editing skills are any indication. A few more in-depth tales of _Númenor_ would have been great; and some books about tales in the Fourth Age. How do you think fans would have accepted that if he did decide to go that route? I wouldn’t have had a problem with it. I’m sure those NPW purists would of course hate it. But I’m not going there again, I just unloaded on one last night. Losing my patience with those folk in my old age .


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## Alcuin

Illuin said:


> I...I was always curious why he didn’t carry his father’s work further; with his own ideas. My guess is that there is similar talent there if his editing skills are any indication. ...


Christopher Tolkien seems to have dedicated himself and his life to arranging, cataloguing, archiving, and examining his father’s writings in a scholarly manner. He does not seem to have diverted into writing new tales, but rather stuck to the task of preserving those of his father.


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## Elthir

> I think the Tale of Beren and Lúthien is older, but I cannot say whether it is in more or less completion than _Children of Húrin_: my supposition would have to be that it is less complete, and that it has more loose ends, despite its length and longevity among the tales.



The updated long prose saga of Beren and Lúthien goes no further than the betrayal by Dairon to Thingol of Beren's presence in Doriath. 

The Tolkien Estate comments: 'Sadly, neither _The Fall of Gondolin_ nor _Beren and Lúthien_ were ever developed extensively and sufficiently enough by J.R.R. Tolkien to publish them in similar form to _The Children of Húrin_. Even though - for instance - an illustrated edition of these tales might be possible, the existing texts have already been published, and would remain incomplete.' 

Anything's possible, but considering Christopher Tolkien's conservative approach to the _Children of Húrin,_ I doubt he, at least, would take up the task of finishing either of these great tales. Actually, the Estate has not yet published the later long prose version of _Beren and Lúthien,_ but generally speaking CJRT published enough with respect to the point of this statement.


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## Durandir

I think they should make the movie, maybe even a series. And I hope they offer the role of Luthien Tinuviel to Morena Baccarin. No, I don't think she's too latin or too dark for the role. If I saw her dancing and singing in a moonlit vale I would stand and watch her all night too, speechless, to not disturb the beautiful vision.


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## Halasían

Durandir said:


> I think they should make the movie, maybe even a series. And I hope they offer the role of Luthien Tinuviel to Morena Baccarin. No, I don't think she's too latin or too dark for the role. If I saw her dancing and singing in a moonlit vale I would stand and watch her all night too, speechless, to not disturb the beautiful vision.



I get what you're saying here! Being I have always pictured them as darker than the blondie elves commonly portrayed, she would fit well. 

Welcome to the site by the way!


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## Durandir

Halasían said:


> Welcome to the site by the way!



Thanks. Nice place you have here. Looking forward to exploring it.



Halasían said:


> I get what you're saying here! Being I have always pictured them as darker than the blondie elves commonly portrayed, she would fit well.



Thanks again. And yeah, that's what I think, too. I had been thinking about the possibility of a Beren and Luthien movie quite skeptical at first. 

But then I imagined wandering through the woods, weary of life and its struggles, downcast and beaten.

And suddenly, a sight like this (well, he probably heard her sing at first)






And then it was Oh Man I have to see_ that _movie.


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## Halasían

Durandir said:


> Thanks. Nice place you have here. Looking forward to exploring it.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks again. And yeah, that's what I think, too. I had been thinking about the possibility of a Beren and Luthien movie quite skeptical at first.
> 
> But then I imagined wandering through the woods, weary of life and its struggles, downcast and beaten.
> 
> And suddenly, a sight like this (well, he probably heard her sing at first)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And then it was Oh Man I have to see_ that _movie.



And that is a very 'Luthien' y look too!


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## CirdanLinweilin

If the Powers That Be ever allow it... I have only one suggestion:

KEEP IT AS FAR AWAY FROM PJ AS POSSIBLE. 

We all know how CT felt about the movies, and The Tolkien Estate, if ever, would only allow it if someone came in with a vision for the source material as close to John Ronald Reuel's as possible. I'd much prefer a series, not a movie. 

Bring in a new team who'd actually be faithful to the source material. That's all I ask. 

Oh, and don't Hollywood-ize it with unnecessary sex, violence, or cursing. (Now that I think about it, that's too high a bar for Hollywood....)  Oh well.

At least we get Beren and Luthien in Hardcover this May. 

CL


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## Starbrow

I always thought of Luthien as having black hair and fair skin.


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## CirdanLinweilin

Starbrow said:


> I always thought of Luthien as having black hair and fair skin.



I did as well. She _is_ an Elf. And aren't Elves typically known to have fair skin? That seems to be the norm.

Here's her page on Tolkien Gateway, with some art of her: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Luthien 

CL


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## Halasían

I do like Aerankai's interpretation of Luthien in their art. The rest of the Luthien art on the TG page is... meh.
I do not see her with spikes coming out of her head.

Here is my friend Jaymasee in a 'Beren and Luthien' photoshoot she did with her boyfriend Simone.







And hoping for a good remake of the movies to be done again in my lifetime.


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## Durandir

CirdanLinweilin said:


> I did as well. She _is_ an Elf. And aren't Elves typically known to have fair skin? That seems to be the norm.
> CL



Well, they stem from northern european myths, so, probably yes. But: 







Looks fair enough to me. It's probably only a matter of make-up. And technically, she's half elven half Maia. Maybe Maiar can come a little darker. Maybe they're not very particular about colour of skin.

What's more, she absolutely has the eyes and the looks to make guys fall instantly and madly in love, as it's repeatedly mentioned (albeit in better wording) in the story and the song fragments. And while she can act innocent and lovely, I absolutely think she can pull off the change to the proactive heroine of the story. If you ask me, when looking for an angel walking the earth, look no further.







Sorry, can't help it.


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## CirdanLinweilin

Durandir said:


> she absolutely has the eyes and the looks to make guys fall instantly and madly in love



 Really, they ain't working on me?

I'm sorry, but to me she is very unattractive. She doesn't look like an elf, not at all.

I guess I am very picky, but I find a lot of women in Hollywood unattractive...

Just my .2




CL


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## Halasían

CirdanLinweilin said:


> Really, they ain't working on me?
> 
> I'm sorry, but to me she is very unattractive. She doesn't look like an elf, not at all.



CirdanLinweilin, so you don't like Durandir's POV on how Luthien looks like, and likely not mine either. Any example you would like to provide on how YOU see Luthien? It would be better than just hosing down other people's opinions with your negative waves. Just sayin'.


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## CirdanLinweilin

Halasían said:


> CirdanLinweilin, so you don't like Durandir's POV on how Luthien looks like, and likely not mine either. Any example you would like to provide on how YOU see Luthien? It would be better than just hosing down other people's opinions with your negative waves. Just sayin'.



I apologize. I wasn't really trying to hose down Durandir, I was just explaining that I don't find a lot of Hollywood actresses pretty. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I respect his and your opinion. I just don't find her attractive.

As for how I see Luthien, 

The fairest China white skin, raven hair, tall, fair, graceful, and glowing.

Again, I apologize, for my words, I should've explained it better. I just don't find Latin women that attractive, but Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so I respect your opinions.

Honestly though, it'll take a lot to portray Luthien, even more for _Tolkien's _Luthien!! I personally think it's not _impossible, _just very, very, _difficult. 
_
I can't imagine any actress for Luthien, because I think _Luthien, _is far beyond any actress' beauty! For goodness' sakes, she's an Elf!

Morena could, quite possibly, _walk the walk, _but it'll be very hard for them to: _Talk the Talk.

_
I am just very worried Hollywood would eviscerate her character. A thousand and one ways just popped into my head of how they could. 

CL


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## Halasían

Thanks. I was curious what your thought on it would be.
Yes, I agree that hollywood will trash it. It would have to be a true independent affair done by someone who knows and loves Tolkien's world, who has class. Not being a b-grade monster movie maker would help. I kind of had the same reservations about Arwen when the first movie came out in '01. Liv did an ok job, but didn't have the 'Evenstar' look to me.


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## Durandir

Uh oh. I thought everyone has to agree when I say something. 

Well, no. It's in the eye of the beholder, of course. And, yeah, it's actually impossible for any human actor to portray an elf as described in Tolkien's work. All I'm saying is, if they are indeed going to turn the book into visual media, this is why I would totally watch it. Like once or twice a day.

Sorry. This is the last one. I promise. Must. Regain. Control. Mustn't google any more pictures..... OMG tooo laaate 

http://bs1.imghost.nu/images/3/120801.jpg

Phew. At least I managed to make it URL only.


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## Halasían

Hmm... actually, she looks more like a Variag daughter of a Khandese Chieftain to me.


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## Durandir

meh. Not asian enough.  But if you're right, easterlings are HAWT.


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## Halasían

I just wrote this fanfic of a civil war in Khand after the War of the Ring, and Khemra, the eldest daughter of a southern tribal chieftain led the rebels. This last pic of yours brought her to life. I'll admit I mashed Star Wars into it, but it worked. I might write her out as a standalone tale!

I always thought Easterlings as more Asian/Mongolian, and Khand as more south Asian with Harad being African.


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## Durandir

Halasían said:


> I just wrote this fanfic of a civil war in Khand after the War of the Ring, and Khemra, the eldest daughter of a southern tribal chieftain led the rebels. This last pic of yours brought her to life. I'll admit I mashed Star Wars into it, but it worked. I might write her out as a standalone tale!



Sounds like a good premise for an unconventional Middle-Earth story. I liked to do similar things as a Middle Earth roleplaying GM, creating easterling and southron characters that wouldn't fit into the one-dimensional "unthinking Sauron follower" drawer. That was long before the movies btw. (where there was a hint at that inner monologue by Sam when he sees the fallen "bad guy") 



Halasían said:


> I always thought Easterlings as more Asian/Mongolian, and Khand as more south Asian with Harad being African.



OK, so that might be a good fit. But unfortunately, there's probably not going to be any big movie projects with Khandese heroines in them.


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## feanorfrogstar

I fell in love with her in firefly lol so beautifull


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