# The Eowyn Admiration Thread



## Rhiannon (Apr 18, 2003)

> *"The woman turned and went slowly into the house. As she passed the doors she turned and looked back. Grave and thoughtful was her glance, as she looked on the king with cool pity in her eyes. Very fair was her face, and her long hair was like a river of gold. Slender and tall she was in her white robe girt with silver; but strong she seemed and stern as steel, a daughter of kings. Thus Aragorn for the first time in the full light of day beheld Eowyn, lady of Rohan, and thought her fair, fair and cold, like a morning of pale spring that is not yet come to womanhood."*



- _The Two Towers_ by JRR Tolkien, Chapter VI, 'The King of the Golden Hall'

Cold and fair, Eowyn is without a doubt one of the greatest characters in The Two Towers and The Return of the King. Complex, strong, and deadly, she kicks serious butt and is beyond cool. This thread is a place for all those who share my opinion to come together and talk about our favorite character- Eowyn.


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## CelebrianTiwele (Apr 18, 2003)

I love Eowyn. She is great and exemplifies what many of us want to be. Loyal, honorable. She's da best!!!


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## Eliot (Apr 19, 2003)

Yeah, I know I'm kinda weird for a guy, but who cares? I like Eowyn for her beauty (book and movie), but also for her personality. She's loyal, brave, true, kind, and a lot of other things.


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## Rhiannon (Apr 19, 2003)

Weird for a guy? Liking Eowyn is a huge point in your favor, Eliot! My best friend's SO made the mistake of saying he didn't like Eowyn in front of me, but we fixed him.

Really I'm surprised that more guys don't like (read: worship) Eowyn. I don't get it.


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## Wonko The Sane (Apr 19, 2003)

*Dances in triumphantly to the sound of blaring horns*

Eowyn is the best!  My favourite because she's so sad, but unlike Eponine, another favourite heroine, she DOES find love in the end. And she doesn't have to die to be appreciated.


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## Rhiannon (Apr 19, 2003)

Yay Wonks! *joins in dancing* We're like internet twins, it's getting to be almost creepy! (Eponine also rules, though I only know her from the musical). 

Speaking of love, can we say Faramir = swoon? See, Eliot, it's a major plus for a guy to like Eowyn, because some girls (me, for instance) use him as our standard of masculine perfection.


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## Beleg (Apr 20, 2003)

Ewoyn is pretty, (well according to books, IMHO The movie Ewoyn is not exactly beautiful). Atleast she is better then Arwen, she is the leading female character in LOTR, does something and has a very HUMANLY personality.


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## Wonko The Sane (Apr 25, 2003)

*Eowyn Appreciation Art.*

Eowyn, as I imagined her 

This is Eowyn to me...strong and fiercly beautiful, but with a strange coldness about her.


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## Rhiannon (Apr 25, 2003)

*wild applause for beautiful Eowyn Admiration Artwork*

Lucky Wonks, finding Faramir-esque guy!

We need more action in this thread *prods it with stick* What Eowyn scenes are you favorites?


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## Wonko The Sane (Apr 25, 2003)

I don't remember EXACTLY the quote, but it's when Aragorn sees her across the hall, she's either approaching him or leaving from having approached her.

They call her "cold" or "icy"...It's my fave line about her.


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## LadyDernhelm (Apr 27, 2003)

*cough*
If you haven't noticed, Eowyn is my favorite character as well (although Sam is way up there too. No comments, Wonks...) She's a character I identify really well with.  

And Eponine is another of my favorites.


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## Theoden (Apr 27, 2003)

I must say that in the books, Theoden (duh) is my absolute favorite character and Sam is close behind. But next I would say it is a tie. And not because one character is better than another, but because each has it's own part to play... right down to the Entwives. 

Eowyn is in my top five of all the characters and by far my favorite lady-character because of her evident female qualities and yet a ruggedness that made her so strong. Every time I read RotK, I love the chapters with her because it adds a whole new demension of endurance and poetic tragedy (in some cases) that make it beautiful. 

So this is to "my" Sister-daughter, you're the best!

-me


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## Rhiannon (Apr 27, 2003)

Theoden, I applaud you! That was lovely.

As I lectured YayGollum on just recently (and did so thoroughly and eloquently enough to alter his opinions, go me) Eowyn's coldness, her uncaring, and her complexity are what make her different from the usual 'woman warrior' archetype- the mundane heroines (lookit, Emma, I just used it again!).


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## Elendur (Apr 29, 2003)

One of my favourite parts of the books is this quote.

______________________________________________

"Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may."

"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"

Then Merry heard of all the sounds in that hour the strangest. It seemed that Dernhelm laughed, and the clear voice was like the ring of Steel. "But no living man am I you look apon a woman. Eowyn I am, Eomunds daughter. You stand between me and my Lord and kin. Begone if you be not deathless! For living or Dark undead, I will smite you if you touch him!"

TROTK, Chapter VI
____________________________________

Not many characters in the LoTR's faced and spoke to the Lord of the Nazgul. Eowyn is high in my approval stakes.


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## Kathl85 (Apr 29, 2003)

I think Eowyn is really strong, determined and so courageous.. but there is still something vulnerability in her character. She is trying to find herself and distinguish her feelings for Faramir and Aragorn.. Anyway, I think she is the best female character in LOTR because she is so human, flawed yet beautiful. I can't wait to see her prove her strength in the last LOTR movie...I hope they give Miranda more screen time.


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## Rhiannon (Apr 29, 2003)

Well said, Kath *applause* Miranda didn't get near enough screen (what with all that nonesense they had going on *mutters*). I'm looking forward to seeing her in RotK very much.

Elendur, the most excellent scene! I have all the dialogue memorized, and like to spout it off when chat rooms get boring (they tend to empty out, too, once I get going. Can't imagine why, mwhahaha). 

*waves to Rai* Everybody, this is my sisiet!


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## LadyDernhelm (Apr 30, 2003)

I agree with Rhian.  She (Miranda as Éowyn) was definitely the star of the movie, and what did they revert to instead...? Icky Arwen-Aragorn scenes that were TOTALLY not in the book. And rather pointless.

Hello, Rhiannon's sister! 

Note: I need to get LadyOfIthilien in here. She's the one who got me started on the forum, another 'Militant Éowyn fan'.


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## Rhiannon (Apr 30, 2003)

The entire Arwen/Aragorn/Eowyn subplot they created is a Bad Thing and somebody needs to be lynched. The Arwen/Elrond was good, but the rest of it just needs to be ditched. It's all nonesense. Arwen and Aragorn never had a falling out, Aragorn never looked at Eowyn romantically, and playing all that up takes away from the characters. *climbs down off soapbox*

D'you need help dragging LadyOfIthilien in? We always want more militant Eowyn fans.


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## LadyDernhelm (Apr 30, 2003)

> The entire Arwen/Aragorn/Eowyn subplot they created is a Bad Thing and somebody needs to be lynched.



I could not agree with you more.




> The Arwen/Elrond was good, but the rest of it just needs to be ditched.



I agree (again!). I thought that was a very inventive way to add in the fullness of the Arwen/Aragorn story (in the Appendixes) without ruining the movies too much.  Although I think whatever dress/makeup set they put Arwen in in that scene made her look really terrible.



> Arwen and Aragorn never had a falling out, Aragorn never looked at Eowyn romantically, and playing all that up takes away from the characters.



I know, SERIOUSLY!!! That really made me irritated (the Arwen-Aragorn spat). And while at my first viewing it didn't seem to me that Aragorn appeared to be romantically interested in Éowyn, the second and third times it became PAINFULLY clear. I agree, it makes them all look like petty, selfish highschoolers instead of the hero(ine)s they really are. 



> D'you need help dragging LadyOfIthilien in? We always want more militant Eowyn fans.



Not really.  Her computer's just been down for three weeks, I should point this out to her. (She was the one who directed me to TTF in the first place).


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## Raithnait (May 4, 2003)

Hi, LadyDernhelm! 

And yeah, I didn't like those parts either... I understand that the producer-guys were like "Hey, remember Arwen?" but I didn't like all the extra stuff they created just to give Liv Tyler more screen time. They could have just put a brie scene of her in, and it would have been great, but Arwen never almost left ME. It's un-Tolkien and therefore wrong. And so is the almost-romance of what-could-have-been on Aragorn's part. He was never attracted to Eowyn. Never. Even when he understood she was attracted to him(which comes much later).


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## Rhiannon (May 4, 2003)

Hurrah! I'm not the only one!

Though, as Rai (yes, she's Angel) knows and grumps at me for, I have an unreasonable but deep-seated dislike for Arwen. It's not really based on anything in particular, I just _don't like her_. And I really dislike Liv Tyler. I could have dealt with it if they hadn't blown up her role and made a big fuss over her, but as it is she bugs the heck out of me. That's a very mean thing of me to say, since it's not like a know her or anything, but it is true. 

But I really hated the additional scenes (the riding scene in Fellowship, the 'spat' in TTT) because they were _out of character._ Arwen isn't the ride-off-and-assist-her-love type. Luthien yes, Arwen no. And the 'caught of his guard' line makes my eye twitch. Gag. As for the 'spat' in TTT, it was completely out of character and totally ridiculous and cheapens the romance and the characters. It was a Bad Move on the scriptwriters part, and I am less optomistic about RotK than I was.


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## LadyDernhelm (May 4, 2003)

> Though, as Rai (yes, she's Angel) knows and grumps at me for, I have an unreasonable but deep-seated dislike for Arwen. It's not really based on anything in particular, I just don't like her. And I really dislike Liv Tyler. I could have dealt with it if they hadn't blown up her role and made a big fuss over her, but as it is she bugs the heck out of me. That's a very mean thing of me to say, since it's not like a know her or anything, but it is true.



REALLY? ME TOO! I could have just BARELY dealt with the footage - yes, even the ford scene - in the first movie. But this junk in the second...no, it's past endurance. And you know then there's the fact that in those scenes with Aragorn she's wearing next to nothing (which really bothers me). Grrrrr.


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## aturina (May 5, 2003)

I have to admit that when I read the part where Eowyn begged Aragorn to take her with him, I felt she was, well, downright pathetic. And I was very disappointed in her.

BUT, that all changed when she revealed herself at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. I was stunned, amazed and VERY impressed. 
Her fearlessness and bravery in the face of the Witchking was really awesome. I loved her for her courage. What a heroine! And she was modest too, when she gave credit to Merry for bringing down the Witchking. She said that he was valiant and didn't mention what she had done. Her character surprised me the most out of all the characters in the book. 

In comparison to Arwen (in the book) I think Eowyn completely blows her away. What exactly did she (Arwen) do? Not much except for look beautiful. Maybe in Tolkien's other books she has a bigger role but I haven't read the others yet. So maybe I should keep an open mind about her. 

Nevertheless, in the LOTR, Eowyn's character far surpasses that of Arwen's. She is a true heroine.


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## laurelindorenan (May 15, 2003)

Hello! Just wanted to add my praise to Eowyn!
She is fantastic. So much energy, grace, skill... Ahh, makes me feel unworthy just typing her name.
I'll be back, just in a bit of a rush...


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## laurelindorenan (May 17, 2003)

Hello again! Sorry it took me a while to get back...
Now where was I? Ah, yes carrying on. Eowyn is just great. I can't think of anything else to say, hold on, let me go and get a theasaurus... *runs to bedroom, grabs theasaurus, charges back, realises its a dictionary, goes back to get theasaurus, races back to computer, sits down* phew! 
Ok then, lets begin by saying that she is flawless, immaculate, impeccable, superior, infallible, unsurpassable, masterly and unstained. 
She is also elegant, graceful and wise. 
She has fluency, balance, dignity, ease, and taste. 
She is impressive, expressive, harmonious, conciencious and kind. She can be a mighty warrior in battle or appear as a delicate petal of a new-opened icicle-like flower.
She is near-perfect.
Ok, so she kind of fell for Aragorn, but she settled for another. That was good, but Arwen (at least movie-Arwen) didn't deserve him *pretends to chop her up with Peter Jackson's steel-sharpened script*. Sorry about that little outburst...


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## Rhiannon (May 25, 2003)

> Ok, so she kind of fell for Aragorn, but she settled for another.



*cough* Pet peeve, 'scuse me *climbs up on soap box* Eowyn didn't 'settle' for Faramir- she loved him as she never loved Aragorn; that is, as a man and a person, as opposed to as a general and a king. She realized this when she stood with Faramir on the wall and her 'heart changed, or at last she understood it'. *climbs down off soapbox* And everything else you said, I couldn't agree more!



> And as for this "spat" in TT...what are you referring to? I need my memory refreshed.



The nonsense between Aragorn and Arwen, passing the elfstone back and forth. Bah. They did that to make Aragorn look available, and I dislike it very much.


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## BlackCaptain (May 25, 2003)

Garn! Eowyn is stupid! Murderer! Why does she have to go and kill me like that?! She needed a rat's help to do it too... Curse the murderers!

---

Now in a more regular tone... Eowyn's cool... I can admire her from a readers standpoint... but from a Black Captain standpoint... ugh... psh!


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## Rhiannon (May 26, 2003)

Heh! 

Well, since this is the Admiration thread, you're only allowed in as a Reader and not as a Black Captain, then. Check your cloak, mace, and winged steed at the door, please.


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## BlackCaptain (May 26, 2003)

*Evil laugh* *sneaks in with Morgûl blade*

No... I'm really a nice Nazgûl... It's Khamul who likes to kill the women and rape the horses. And in that order! Haha.

Well anyhoo... What I never knew about Eowyn is how she can so quickly go from loving Aragorn to Faramir. That always busted my bubble.


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## Rhiannon (May 26, 2003)

Excuse me while I fetch my soapbox....

I'm just quoting myself from a different thread, so I do go on about this at length; 

First off, *Eowyn was not on the rebound*. She was not ‘settling’ for Faramir. She didn’t even really love Aragorn, not in the romantic sense. She was drawn to his greatness and nobility and saw him as a way out of the cage she felt she was in. Faramir knew this- “As a great captain may to a young soldier he seemed to you admirable.” Eowyn and Aragorn (though originally they did end up together, before Tolkien invented Arwen) would never have worked as a couple because their relationship would not have been one of equals; Eowyn did not love Aragorn as a man, but as a great warrior and king, and the caring Aragorn had for Eowyn was of an older man for a hurt child. Even if Arwen had not been waiting, Aragorn would not have been the right man for Eowyn. 
When Eowyn saw that Aragorn would not give her what she wanted- a way out, power, greatness- she sought it a different way, through death and glory in battle. By the time she met Faramir she had _already_ abandoned the idea of loving Aragorn. Faramir was not her second choice; he was the choice she hadn’t realized she had. 
What makes Faramir so wonderful is that he loved Eowyn _as a woman_; he saw her complete with her faults and her pride and her brokenness and he didn’t love her in spite of it, he loved it as part of her. He didn’t offer her pity, which would have crippled her strength. And Faramir is very nearly the Most Perfect Man Ever; he is strong and gentle and kind and wise and he loves Eowyn. 

So it's not a matter of falling abruptly out of love with Aragorn and in love with Faramir- it's realizing that she didn't really love Aragorn in the first place, not the way she thought she did- "...the heart of Eowyn changed, or at last she understood it." (paraphrase). 

*climbs down off soapbox*


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## BlackCaptain (May 26, 2003)

Ohh.... It all makes perfect sense now... Well I don't see why Aragorn was a way out of her cage, when her brother was a big noble fighter. Of course her brother did tell her no, but so did Aragorn...


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## Rhiannon (May 26, 2003)

But Aragorn was a stranger- I rather think Eowyn wanted out of Rohan itself. And I think she thought of Eomer as being also trapped, by duty and obligation or what have you. And Eowyn wanted greatness- the influence of Wormtongue probably took away her sense of self-worth, and she saw Aragorn, a king, as a way out of that pit.

How I do go on...can you tell that I am more than happy to lecture at length on this subject?


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## laurelindorenan (May 27, 2003)

Hehe. It was me that made you go off on one, wasn't it?
I didn't mean to infuriate you so, I suppose I just worded it in a slightly disagreeable manner. I meant along the lines of what you've just said. Sorry about that misunderstanding!
It was probably because she was a bit desperate, you know looking for a way out of her sheltered life.


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## Rhiannon (May 27, 2003)

Infuriate? Where? Oh no, dear, rant does not = infuriated, just = glad for any excuse to rant at length about favorite subject.

Has anyone else seen this? Has anyone else seen it? So help me, someone is going to DIE. *Heads will roll*. Cry havoc!!!!!


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## BlackCaptain (May 31, 2003)

Mabey 'alot of story to cover' wouldn't need covering if they just would have put Shelob in the 2nd one!!! And I think I know why they have to keep on reshooting my scene...

Cuz I'm too good to act bad and be killed by Eowyn! Ha! *Runs away laughing evily... again...*


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## Rhiannon (Jul 16, 2003)

Eowyn action figures are coming out August 10th. They had better be good, because I'm getting 'em


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## jimmyboy (Jul 18, 2003)

Yes, Eowyn's an admirable woman. Probably the best one in the whole LOTR story.

As for masculine perfection, I'd pick Aragorn, followed closely by Faramir as he is in the book. (Did not like the movie version at all. He was basically just another Boromir.)


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## Rhiannon (Jul 18, 2003)

She _is_ admirable, isn't she? 

Aragorn is too...royal to be my masculine ideal. Royal and distant, etc. The reason I prefer Faramir/Eowyn to Aragorn/Arwen is because they're romance is on a more 'human' level.


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## jimmyboy (Jul 19, 2003)

> they're romance is on a more 'human' level.


True, true. Aragorn is my favorite overall character in all of the Middle-earth stories. Arwen is beautiful, of course, but beyond that is just too...well, there's not much too her. Obviously Aragorn would strongly disagree, but with Eowyn we're seeing a real person, noble and confident, yet with inner frustrations and conflicts. She's real, and therefore more easy to understand and identify with.

Faramir is wonderful because, like Aragorn he's selfless, bold and courageous, and also wise, strong in mind and body, and an exceptional warrior and leader of men. Boromir was similar, but he was still to proud and hasty; not as wise or insightful as his brother. Both were worthy of their lineage, and were exceptional even among all the stout warriors in Middle-earth. I gotta love men like this because they remind me of what it takes to be a real man, and I don't mean the great warrior part; I mean the selfless, wise, and confident way that they had. Their physical strength and might just make them even more exceptional.


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## Rhiannon (Jul 19, 2003)

Jimmyboy, you just made my 'good' list. I approve heartily 

Arwen talks eleven times in the book, including the appendix- I counted. And that's eleven seperate lines; there are only three scenes in which she speaks. Not to dis her as a character, but she is given very little depth (at least in the context of the story in LOTR). Eowyn, on the other hand, is there in full complex emotional human glory, and is wonderful because she while she isn't perfect, she gets out to say and do the things no one else does. 

And I can't tell you how pleased I am to hear someone else speak about Faramir that way.


> I gotta love men like this because they remind me of what it takes to be a real man, and I don't mean the great warrior part; I mean the selfless, wise, and confident way that they had.


Hear hear! Keep that mind set, the world needs more people like that.


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## Mithrandread (Jul 21, 2003)

I really like Éowyn, and I closely identify with her. To have the courage, strength, and stout heart of a man clad in the body of a maiden is a terrible thing to bear when the times and mores of an era dictate that a maiden must behave in a certain fashion.

I believe that Éowyn is the strongest female character in LOTR. Yes, Galadriel is wise and great, but Éowyn is *The Woman!*

She is unconventional, and ahead of her time! Faramir is the embodiment of a man to see through her cold exterior, and to love her still. I was joyful when she finally opened herself to him, and accepted his love!

And, I am no flaming romantic, either.


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## Rhiannon (Aug 2, 2003)

All right, the reason I am up so late - other than that I am weird - is that I have been ranting at a 'friend' of mine from Readerville who *gasp* _doesn't like Eowyn_. I asked why, specifically, and what she said could pretty much be summed up as 'she was too whiny and cold'. 

_Well_. I could hardly stand for _that_, now could I? And since I wrote this big huge rant on the subject, I thought I post it here and revive this thread at the same time. So here it is;

To date, Eowyn has watched her king and uncle fall under Wormtongue's influence, seen her cousin die, her parents die, and her brother devotes most of his time out hunting orcs. And there _isn't anything she can do about it_, because she is a woman. She is utterly alone, which is why she becomes cold- it's a defense (one I'm familiar with). And as Gandalf said to Eomer, "My friend, you had horses, and deeds of arms, and the free fields; but she, born in the body of a maid, had a spirit and courage at least the match of yours. Yet she was doomed to wait upon an old man, whom she loved as a father, and watch him falling into a mean dishonoured dotage; and her part seem to her more ignoble than that of the staff that he leaned on. Think you that Wormtongue had poison only for Theoden's ears?...My lord, if your sister's love for you, and her will still bent to her duty, had not restrained her lips, you might have heard even such things as these escapte them. But who knows what she spoke to the darkness, alone, in the bitter watches of the night, when all her life seemed shrinking, and the walls of her bower closing in about her, a hutch to trammel some wild thing in?"

_...all her life seemed shrinking..._ Eowyn was trapped by her rank and her sex in to a role to which she was unsuited, and which grated on her nerves; combined with Wormtongue's influence and the absence of anyone in which she could confide, she withdrew into herself and became cold and bitter. 

She did not _whine_ in TTT. The first time we see her, she says nothing; only stands behind Theoden's chair. The second time is when she brings the 'stirrup cup', and greets Aragorn; again, she says very little and nothing that could be called 'whining', though Hama calls her 'fearless and high-hearted'. The last time we see Eowyn in TTT is as she stands before the doors of Meduseld, watching the 'glitter of their spears' as the armies leave for Helm's Deep. The first reference to Eowyn in RotK is when Theoden says that she awaits him at Dunharrow. The second reference is when Eowyn welcomes 'them' [Aragorn, the rangers, and the sons of Elrond] at Dunharrow. She tries to dissuade Aragorn from taking the Paths of the Dead, and then asks to go with him. "Lord, if you must go, then let me ride in your following. For I am weary of skulking in the hills, and wish to face peril and battle." This is the only scene in which Eowyn could truly be said to do anything similar to 'whining', when she speaks bitterly about the role she has been trapped in- as the one who stays behind, 'to mind the house'. And when Aragorn speaks to her of duty, she says "All you words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more. But I am of the House of Eorl and not a serving-woman. I can ride and wield blade, and I do not fear either pain or death." The next day when Aragorn leaves, she askes him once more to let her go with him, but he refuses. I think this is when Eowyn's resolve to disguise herself starts- not as the cause, but as the catalyst. 

In her disguise as Dernhelm, she breaks free of her 'cage', her entrapping role, and kicks _serious_ Nazgul butt. But as she finds in the Houses of Healing, this was not what she truly wanted. Her 'love' for Aragorn was not love, but merely another way for her to escape the 'cage'. Trapped, alone, she felt helpless, worthless, and so she was drawn to Aragorn's greatness and nobility; she didn't want _him_, she didn't love him as a man- as Faramir says to her, "You desired to have the love of the Lord Aragorn. Because he was high and puissant, and you wished to have renown and glory to be lifted far above the mean things that crawl on the earth. And as a great captain may to a young soldier he seemed to you admirable. For so he is, a lord among men, the greatest that now is. But when he gave you only understanding and pity, then you desired to ahve nothing, unless a brave death in battle." By then Eowyn truly felt she had nothing left to live for. She was, if you want to call it that, _thoroughly_ depressed. Numb. Without hope that even if the darkness was defeated, things would be different for her. 

And this is where Faramir comes in. Wonderful, wonderful Faramir  When Eowyn finds that despite all she did, she _still_ is not content, that she still has not 'proven herself to herself' (and she was certainly not in any condition to go busting her way back to the battle-field; besides which, the armies had already ridden away to Mordor. "It is too late to follow the captains, lady, even if you had the strength", as Faramir said). Eowyn's kick-butt behavior in battle is _not_ the point! As much as I think she is awesome on the battle-field, truly she was not 'war-like'; as Tolkien said in one of his _Letters_, "not a 'dry nurse' in temper, she was also not really a soldier or 'amazon', but like many brave women was capable of great military gallantry at a crisis." Faramir's love and understanding, and his acceptance of her as she was, took away Eowyn's depression. Being loved unconditionally took away the need to prove herself (you notice that the need, the sense of worthlessness, didn't go away even after she slew the Nazgul. She still felt that she hadn't done _enough_). Eowyn didn't fight because she _liked_ it; she was brave, yes, very, and skilled, yes; she was more than _capable_ of fighting, but it gave her no pleasure, except as a way to prove herself.


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## Dáin Ironfoot I (Aug 2, 2003)

Rhi- I gotta say, you really got this character down. Everything you say makes perfect sense, and I can tell you do not just admire her, you feel her, you are her. 

Why didnt PJ contact YOU to play Eowyn's role, huh?  Youd be much better than Miranda Otto or whoever she is (though she is not bad herself).

So yea, just wanted to let you know that you really understand her, and its pretty cool I think.


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## Rhiannon (Aug 2, 2003)

Dain, thank you! I do have a _lot_ of empathy for Eowyn, and she has been my favorite character since I was six; you might say I've made a study of her  I'm glad to know someone thinks I've got it right. Thanks very much.


> Why didnt PJ contact YOU to play Eowyn's role, huh?


 As awesome as that would have been, I can't act, and I haven't got the figure for it...but oh, how awesome that would have been!


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## Inderjit S (Aug 2, 2003)

Eowyn is a damn sexy shield maden. A feminist in M-E. Ach, enough to send my heart racing. I mean Arwen may have looked like Luthien, but Eowyn was still amazingly beautiful, strong, brave and generally interesting....Aragorn definetly made the wrong choice, but I doubt whether there ever was one, plus Faramir suited her better.


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## elithraniel (Aug 2, 2003)

I just wanted to applaude Rhiannon.
*applause followed by more a applause*
You'll have to give me a while to write up something to beat that!


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## Rhiannon (Aug 3, 2003)

Thank you, elithraniel *blush*

Hear hear, Inderjit- though I have to say, I think I'd rather have Faramir myself


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## Arebeth (Aug 24, 2003)

Wow... Rhiannon, you're unbelievable when you write about her.
I've always liked her, but I think I didn't realise all the things she was in the same time. 
At first I was quite fascinated for her impossible love for Aragorn (seems silly, but the sentence "You didn't want him as a man, you wanted the love of Lord Aragorn" or whatever it is... Well, it's the kind of things I can understand.)
I also can understand her "coldness" (I'm familiar with that, too), her ambition (I really think she's an ambitious person. I just can't imagine what she would have become if she hadn't been a woman. And I think she imagines it, too. It must be very frustrating to feel like that.That's my opinion, anyway.). Plus, she has lost almost everything and she's still a fighter. I admire her.
Excuse me for all the things I've forgotten, these are just the ones I remember the most from my first reading.


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## Dáin Ironfoot I (Aug 27, 2003)

Hey Rhi, I noticed you were upset Eowyn doesnt have a desktop... so I made one for you! Its a 1072 one, but Im sure it will work for whatever...


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## Rhiannon (Aug 27, 2003)

Yay! It's beautiful, Dain! *loves* Thank you!


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## Rhiannon (Aug 29, 2003)

Oh my...Look at these!

Eowyn in Armour 

Eowyn...well, not in armour


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## Wonko The Sane (Sep 6, 2003)

Rhia, I found this Eowyn desktop on this website:

http://www.squidge.org/~praxisters/TBlotr.html

be careful.  They specialize in artistst renderings of homoerotic hobbits and things. 

http://www.squidge.org/~praxisters/eowyn.html


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## Rhiannon (Sep 7, 2003)

Thank you ma'am. Treading carefully. Homoerotic isn't my cuppa. But I like their Eowyn background muchly!


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## Wonko The Sane (Sep 7, 2003)

Hehe.  I found it from someone who thought it was funny. 
Beorn even let me make a thread about it.
It IS hilarious. It's like, "I think Legolas and Haldir in the movie are getting it on" and then you go to the site and there are the pix to prove it!
But if you click on "Desktops" on their main page you go to the acceptable pix. 

Enjoy!


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## Rhiannon (Sep 7, 2003)

I can understand doing art/fanfiction of that sort if you're so inclined (it's just that I'm not), but what baffles me are the popular pairings. Like Legolas/Aragorn. I just don't see that at _all_  But...I suppose to each his own. 

*sticks to Eowyn/Faramir*


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## Wonko The Sane (Sep 7, 2003)

Speaking of Eowyn/Faramir:

"Beyond his hope she returned to him where he sat in darkness, and long ago in the Hidden Kingdom, she laid her hand in his." 


I think that this quote from the Sil about Beren and Luthien can be applied to Eowyn and Faramir...but in reverse...where it's Faramir coming to Eowyn beyond her hope.


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## Aulë (Sep 8, 2003)

*creeps into the Lions Den*

Bah!
That Eowyn person was a waste of time.
All she did was take away some of the credit from Merry, who was the main factor in killing the Witch King.
When Merry was hurt, did Imrahil and co see him? Nope- they were only concerned about that useless Eowyn. 
She did nothing for the story, and put Merry's life in danger.

And she did not obey her King's (Theoden's) orders, and went to Gondor. Treachery! Worse than Wormtongue.

The only reason that she is good in the movie, is because the actress is Australian 
Yay! Miranda Otto!


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## Wonko The Sane (Sep 12, 2003)

Alright, then I must ask Aulë to clarify if he hates Eowyn because he really dislikes her character, or if he SAYS he hates her, as he indicated to me, only to try to get a rise out of Rhiannon?

If the latter is true, then I suggest you delete his post as well.


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## Rhiannon (Sep 14, 2003)

> That Eowyn person was a waste of time.
> All she did was take away some of the credit from Merry, who was the main factor in killing the Witch King.



Geez Louise, am I ever tired of hearing that one. There is no way to deny that it was Eowyn who struck the fatal blow. That she couldn't have done it without Merry's aid is obvious, and he _is_ given credit, but she was not 'stealing' anything.



> When Merry was hurt, did Imrahil and co see him? Nope- they were only concerned about that useless Eowyn.



Imrahil and co. saw Eowyn as she was being born back to the city (along with Theoden), and presumed dead. At this point Merry was wandering around in a daze and got lost. He was not on a stretcher being carried away. 



> She did nothing for the story, and put Merry's life in danger.



_Nothing for the story???_ Nothing for the story!!! She is the _only_ dynamic female character in the book! Arwen and Galadriel are very nice, but they don't _do_ much except be beautiful and provide a) romantic interest or b) a moral delimma. Eowyn is pro-active, gritty, _edgy_, even. She brings an element to the story that it would not have had otherwise. A moment of pure ordinary human heroism. She makes Faramir complete. And despite her relatively small role, she is a fascinating, complex, and deeply admirable character. How can she contribute nothing??? 

If you're talking about _plot_ movement, she serves as a device to get Merry from Rohan to Minas Tirith, and provides healing for Faramir, as well as giving us that awesome moment in The Battle of Pelennor Fields. Who else could have slain the Nazgul but Eowyn and Merry?



> And she did not obey her King's (Theoden's) orders, and went to Gondor. Treachery! Worse than Wormtongue.



See my very long rant posted upthread some where. Yes, she did disobey, but 1) she was not really needed in Rohan, and 2) if she had stayed it would have meant absolute death to her spirit. She had to get _out_. Disguising herself, while meant as a way to get herself killed, is a step in the right direction because she is _taking action_, breaking out of the role she has been trapped in.


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## Dáin Ironfoot I (Sep 17, 2003)

One could also say that even if she did not kill the Witch -King (which would have happened without Merry's help), she DID kill the fell beast. Remember that as soon as the fell beast crashed to ruin, the darkness cleared. This was a MAJOR factor in the Battle of Pelennor Fields, as the darkness was one of the major reasons for the men losing morale and spirit. You try fighting under such conditions... its not much fun!


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## Rhiannon (Sep 19, 2003)

An excellent point, Dain. 

And if she _hadn't_ slain the fell beast, would Merry have even had the presence of mind to come to her aid in the first place?

You see how the infidel flees before our superior arguments.


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## Thuringwethil (Sep 21, 2003)

*Yay for Eowyn!*

Gotta join the choir. In LotR, Eowyn is the most appealing character to me. Her loneliness, self-imprisoning loyalty, crippling unselfishness, then desperation that drives her to defy everyone and challenge an enemy way over her own league.. Those aspects are very close to me, plus the overall concept of a woman with guts and courage at least equal to the best of men. Couple of twists and she'd be perfect in my eyes.


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## Rhiannon (Sep 21, 2003)

Hurrah! Always nice to have a new admirer join us  Welcome to the forum, Thuringwethil.


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## simbelmyne (Sep 25, 2003)

I also love Eowyn!

Ladies, wouldn't you want to have her as a friend? She's not worried about how her hair looks or chasing after some guy...she's an intelligent, moral, THINKING person. Who wouldn't be suicidal after being shut up with Grima Wormtongue for years on end and watching her family fall to pieces? 

Furthermore...how could anyone chose Aragorn over Faramir? Aragorn is too cold and remote...Faramir has the courage to be vulnerable, and to love Eowyn even if she rejects him, while accepting her rejection because he respects her. And she deserves respect! He gives her his mother's cloak because it suits her, not as a bribe!

My favorite Eowyn moment is when she sees Merry's struggle and desperation about being left behind and allows him to ride with her to Gondor. The act of a truely compassionate person, a perfect counterpart to Faramir. Their romance has a lot more spark than the Aragorn/Arwen theme...

The way Faramir and Eowyn has been played down in the movie is a real shame, considering the great characters and the human, tender, feeling presentation in LOTR, but it probably wouldn't live up to our expectations awyway, so maybe it's being ignored in the movie and cherished in the book is a good thing!


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## Arebeth (Sep 25, 2003)

I finally manage to get one my friends (strange expression from someone like me ) reading LOTR. And, strangely enough, she read it till the end and now she's reading the Sil! Yay! Anyway, she _doesn't like Eowyn_. Don't ask me why, I really don't know, she thinks that Arwen is so much interesting (in the book, but she agrees that in the film...). I was "yes, but you know, Eowyn is an heroin, Eowyn _has a brain_, etc". Her:"She just falls in love with Aragorn like a silly girl".
What??? Oh, God. I think LOTR is some kind of politic: don't speak about it with people who don't agree with you (I, of course, never follow my own advice).


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## Thuringwethil (Sep 25, 2003)

Thanks for the welcome, Rhiannon. Glad to be here. 



> _by Simbelmyne_
> Ladies, wouldn't you want to have her as a friend?



Yes please, very much so.  We have a bunch of things in common, and I actually have some friends that are somewhat like her.



> Furthermore...how could anyone chose Aragorn over Faramir?



I've no idea.. partially because I'd choose Eowyn over either of them, actually..  But to each their own. I guess Aragorn has same kind of "rugged charm" as Clint Eastwood or Harrison Ford, whereas Faramir is more tender and gentle, maybe like Richard Gere or Johnny Depp? Dunno..

Arebeth, I've actually first thought same as your friend about the Eowyn-Aragorn thingie. I was all "what the /censored/?" and "grow up teenie". But when I thought it through later, I slightly changed my mind. I think it's not an actual crush, although there perhaps is some kind of erotic undertone. Methinks Eowyn doesn't see Aragorn as a potential partner, but as a messenger from the wide world out there, as a leader she could follow, and very much as a rolemodel. She idolizes Aragorn (and she's not alone, bunch of guys do as well, including her brother) and it is easy to confuse idolization and attraction, either way. But Eowyn does not idolize Faramir; they're equal, and that's pretty much the only way to build a relationship.

Just my arrogant opinion.


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## Rhiannon (Sep 25, 2003)

> I was "yes, but you know, Eowyn is an heroin, Eowyn has a brain, etc". Her:"She just falls in love with Aragorn like a silly girl".
> What??? Oh, God.



'Oh, God' is _right_. Oh dear, oh dear. I've ranted about this above. 



> Methinks Eowyn doesn't see Aragorn as a potential partner, but as a messenger from the wide world out there, as a leader she could follow, and very much as a rolemodel. She idolizes Aragorn (and she's not alone, bunch of guys do as well, including her brother) and it is easy to confuse idolization and attraction, either way. But Eowyn does not idolize Faramir; they're equal, and that's pretty much the only way to build a relationship.


You're absolutely right- She didn't _really_ love him. She wanted _out_ and he was what she saw as the only way, and she wished for greatness, to not just get out but be lifted up. It's not 'falling love like a silly girl'. There is _so_ much more to it than that!

*sigh* I _love_ Faramir. I've discussed this with my father, and we agree that under no circumstances am I to marry anyone who does not meet the Faramir-standard  No, I haven't got a life 



> Ladies, wouldn't you want to have her as a friend? She's not worried about how her hair looks or chasing after some guy...she's an intelligent, moral, THINKING person. Who wouldn't be suicidal after being shut up with Grima Wormtongue for years on end and watching her family fall to pieces?



Hear, hear.



> Furthermore...how could anyone chose Aragorn over Faramir? Aragorn is too cold and remote...Faramir has the courage to be vulnerable, and to love Eowyn even if she rejects him, while accepting her rejection because he respects her. And she deserves respect!



Hear, hear!



> The act of a truely compassionate person, a perfect counterpart to Faramir. Their romance has a lot more spark than the Aragorn/Arwen theme...



HEAR, HEAR!



> The way Faramir and Eowyn has been played down in the movie is a real shame, considering the great characters and the human, tender, feeling presentation in LOTR, but it probably wouldn't live up to our expectations awyway, so maybe it's being ignored in the movie and cherished in the book is a good thing!



*HEAR, HEAR!*

In other Eowyn news, my action figures just arrived! I have been waiting and waiting and _waiting_ for them to be available- and according to Amazon.com they still don't exist- and after traipsing all over Texas looking for them, I finally got clever and went to eBay. 

Hurrah! They're really nice. If you haven't seen them, there are two different 6 inch action figures: One wears a blue/purple dress underdress and brown bodice (the dress that was in all the publicity material but never in the movie), and come with a sword- she's also wearing knee high boots and leggings under the skirt, which I like  (I'm assuming this one was originally meant to be released with _The Two Towers_). 
The other is of Eowyn in armour, and it _very_ nice. She has a cloak, scabbard with should harness, sword, spear, and helmet (I don't particularly care for the style of the helmet, myself, but oh well). They're gorgeous. I'm really pleased with them.
There just happened to be a couple of pre-teen girls here today (plus my pre-teen sister), and I was mobbed while I was opening the boxes. "Let me see, let me see!" Hooray, Rhiannon is converting lots of young Eowyn admirerers! All three of them are planning to be Eowyn for Halloween (this is good, especially since aforementioned sister looks like a young Eowyn _and_ shares a birthday with Tolkien).


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## Starflower (Sep 26, 2003)

> Methinks Eowyn doesn't see Aragorn as a potential partner, but as a messenger from the wide world out there, as a leader she could follow, and very much as a rolemodel. She idolizes Aragorn (and she's not alone, bunch of guys do as well, including her brother) and it is easy to confuse idolization and attraction, either way.


I would like to add my view that Arwen hero-worshipped Aragorn, here was this heir of kings, who treated her as an equal, not as one left behind. Like ARagorn later commented to Eomer, she was like her brother in spirit and courage, but was born in a woman's body and did not have the same opportunities as him and got depressed ( and somewhat suicidal as well). I thinkg she saw saw Aragorn as a way out, a road to "fame" as it were, if she was his queen, never again would she be left behind. 




Starflower


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## Rhiannon (Sep 26, 2003)

Exactly, Starflower! Assuming you mean Eowyn, not Arwen  Freudian slip?


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## Aulë (Sep 26, 2003)

Have a looksy here, Rhi: http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11971

It's a debate in which the Periaur successfully proved that Eowyn was wrong to disobey Theoden's orders.

Mwhaha.

Eowyn = Traitor 



Also, Eowyn would be nothing without Merry.


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## Rhiannon (Sep 26, 2003)

And the maker of trouble returns....

I can't go read the thread now, because I have to take an economics test in a bit, but I can tell you right off that because a debate team made a convincing argument on a topic doesn't make them right. I debated on the side of Merry in the 'who was the primary cause of the witch-king's death' debate and won it.


> Also, Eowyn would be nothing without Merry.


You're going to have to defend your positiong with more than _that_, my lad! Come on, come on. You make trouble and then don't show your face in my thread for weeks and then don't even respond to the previous answers given! Tsk tsk, bad form!  

I'll look at the debate this afternoon and get back to you.


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## Aulë (Sep 26, 2003)

Indeed, Merry was the primary factor (as _you_ proved in the debate).
But the Witch-King couldn't have been killed by Eowyn either (I'll give you that).
Eowyn would not have killed the WK without Merry. Merry stabbed him with the Westernesse blade. No other sword could have broken the spell. Also, Eowyn would not have delivered the final blow, bar for the pleas from Merry.

And she was just a suicidal maniac until good ol' Faramir came along  (and even then it took some convincing)

  



> Imrahil and co. saw Eowyn as she was being born back to the city (along with Theoden), and presumed dead. At this point Merry was wandering around in a daze and got lost. He was not on a stretcher being carried away.


Merry was not wandering around aimlessly. He was standing right next to where Theoden fell.


> _RotK: The Battle of the Pelennor Fields_
> And still Meriadoc the hobbit stood there blinking through his tears and no one spoke to him, indeed none seemed to heed him. He brushed away the tears, and stooped to pick up the green shield that Éowyn had given him; and he slung it at his back. Then he looked for his sword that he had let fall; for even as he struck his blow his arm was numbed, and now he could only use his left hand. And behold! there lay his weapon, but the blade was smoking like a dry branch that has been thrust in a fire; and as he watched it, it writhed and withered and was consumed.


All the fuss over Eowyn and Theoden had made it so that poor ol' Merry was forgotten. And had it not been for the luck of him meeting Pippin the Hero, then he would have surely died- because of Eowyn!!

Eowyn = Hobbit Killer!!! 



> Nothing for the story??? Nothing for the story!!! She is the only dynamic female character in the book! Arwen and Galadriel are very nice, but they don't do much except be beautiful and provide a) romantic interest or b) a moral delimma. Eowyn is pro-active, gritty, edgy, even. She brings an element to the story that it would not have had otherwise. A moment of pure ordinary human heroism. She makes Faramir complete. And despite her relatively small role, she is a fascinating, complex, and deeply admirable character. How can she contribute nothing???


All she provided was a suicidal maniac who could not be consoled (talk about stubborn... ). All she wanted was death.

Eowyn = Mad woman!!! 



> See my very long rant posted upthread some where. Yes, she did disobey, but 1) she was not really needed in Rohan, and 2) if she had stayed it would have meant absolute death to her spirit. She had to get out. Disguising herself, while meant as a way to get herself killed, is a step in the right direction because she is taking action, breaking out of the role she has been trapped in.


Look at that debate I showed you.
Because of her recklessness, she put the lives of the people of Rohan in danger.

Eowyn = Traitor!!!


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## Rhiannon (Sep 26, 2003)

> All the fuss over Eowyn and Theoden had made it so that poor ol' Merry was forgotten. And had it not been for the luck of him meeting Pippin the Hero, then he would have surely died- because of Eowyn!!



He wasn't _forgotten_- no one even knew he was _there_. Why didn't he make himself known, then, mm? That's a stupid thing to blaim Eowyn for. 



> All she provided was a suicidal maniac who could not be consoled (talk about stubborn... ). All she wanted was death.



All she _wanted_ was freedom from a place where she felt trapped. She saw death as her only outlet. Couldn't be consoled by who? Where? Did anyone try and free her until Faramir? _No_. God helps those who help themselves.


> Eowyn would not have killed the WK without Merry. Merry stabbed him with the Westernesse blade. No other sword could have broken the spell. Also, Eowyn would not have delivered the final blow, bar for the pleas from Merry.


Eowyn couldn't have killed the witch-king without Merry, Merry couldn't have killed the witch-king without Eowyn, but Eowyn is the one who dealt the death blow and who as a result suffered the greatest wounds. No one is trying to steal credit from Merry, get over it!

Economics test, here I come (bleh). I'll get back to _you_ later.


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## Starflower (Sep 26, 2003)

ouch! thanks Rhiannon. I certainly meant Eowyn. THat's what you get trying to post somethnig and being at work and on the phone at the same time... my apologies. 


Starflower


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## Rhiannon (Sep 26, 2003)

It's okay, Starflower, we understand 

Aule, on the other hand...Frankly, Aule, I _don't_ find that debate to be particularly conclusive. It certainly doesn't prove Eowyn a traitor- that's not even the _topic_. The topic was "Was Éowyn right in joining the ride of the Rohirrim, and disobeying King Théodens orders to stay in Rohan?" There were points made by both teams, but over so much bickering, unrelated arguments, and general failure to be cohesive, I don't think anything was 'proved'. 

So, how about _you_ state _your_ arguments for why exactly you think Eowyn was a traitor and _I_ will tell you why I think you're wrong. And back yourself up with the book, please.


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## Thuringwethil (Sep 26, 2003)

More or less points made by Rhiannon already, but since I wrote it, might as well post it..

Aule, I find your arguments quite ridiculous. First: debate contest is not trying to find the truth, it's trying to find out the better debater. One could in a contest debate that Sauron is good-natured, and win, if the opponent can't do better than "he just is evil". But that doesn't make Sauron a good chap.

Second: Eowyn can't fight? She slayed the winged beast _solo_, when Merry was still /rude expression/. She was the single one present who could defy the Witch-King, and only after she did this, Merry got himself together and harmed the wraith. He did save Eowyn's life, but he did not destroy WK. Eowyn did. When Merry stabbed, WK screamed, tripped, missed his blow and bent down. When Eowyn stabbed, he disappeared, and the shriek heard was that of dying, not just agony. And knee sinews do not sound very vital to me, wraith or not..

Of course Merry deserves huge credit for his deed; even wounding a nazgul is a task most warriors can only dream of. (Could be more like a nightmare, but anyway..) And he saved her life, as I said, thus having important part in actual slaying, too. But it's obvious Eowyn gave the fatal strike, that's why she had her sword-arm paralyzed.

Third: Hobbit-killer? Excuse me? Eowyn didn't say "forget the halfling and look after me". And what should've been done to Merry anyway? He was able to walk away from the battlefield, something thousands of men and (at least) one woman could not do that day. There was a battle raging, if you didn't know. No time to patch every scratch; more like "still one arm left? keep fighting!" or "stuff those innards somewhere and pick up your sword!". Like, a war, you know..

And then my favourites: Traitor? Disobedient? Mad? Suicidal? Aule, it never crossed your mind that these are the very aspects that make Eowyn so interesting and even admirable? I do *not* admire obedience. I question it frequently, in various forms. I break rules if they are suffocating me. I'm not loyal if my loyalty is not deserved. That's why I like Eowyn's character. And she being desperate, depressed, suicidal and whatnot, only makes her more close to me. I symphatize her very much, mostly due to aspects you seem to despise.

But Aule, your approach seems too provocative to be serious. That of course rises the question why do you bother? And my tone in this post? Somebody seemed to ask for it..


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## Starflower (Sep 26, 2003)

Ah, Thuringwethil my dear fellow, I agree wholeheartedly with you ! I'm just not quite as eloquent as you


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## Thuringwethil (Sep 26, 2003)

Thank you Starflower. 

(Oh dear, now I'm all flattered and stuff. *blush*)


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## Rhiannon (Sep 26, 2003)

Excellent post, Thuringwethil! *applause* Very good points.

Aule, calling Eowyn a 'traitor' is a gross injustice. Yes, it's true she did disobey Theoden. Whether she was right in doing so is entirely subjective. _I_ say she was. That she was depressed is also true, and the fact that she faced up to it, was pro-active, and made choices for herself are what is so admirable about her! 

I don't love Eowyn because I think she's perfect. I love Eowyn because she was human, and just as frail and prone to mistakes and misjudgments and depression and selfishness and unhappiness as the rest of us- _but she rose above it_.


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## simbelmyne (Sep 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rhiannon _
> *Aule, calling Eowyn a 'traitor' is a gross injustice. Yes, it's true she did disobey Theoden. Whether she was right in doing so is entirely subjective. I say she was. That she was depressed is also true, and the fact that she faced up to it, was pro-active, and made choices for herself are what is so admirable about her!
> *



Exactly! If we are going around calling everyone a traitor for disobeying a dumb order then Faramir's a traitor for letting the ring go, Gandalf's a traitor for bringing his staff into King Theoden's hall, Eomer a traitor for ambushing the orcs.....need I go on? These people all did what they thought was right. Eowyn may have been more self-interested in her choice to disobey, but so was the reason for leaving her behind! She was still following her heart. 

Rhiannon, I couldn't agree more about Eowyn taking her situation into her own hands! Did she sit around and feel sorry for herself? NO! She took what measures she could, without harming anyone else, to bring meaning into her life. Granted, her goal was to die, but still!  

Merry responsible for the death of the Witch-King? Pu-lease. Eowyn had the courage to face him and attempt to defeat him in battle. Merry had the courage to protect her, which is still admirable, and his Westenesse sword dealt the last blow...

OK, bear with me on this one, but haven't we all felt like Eowyn? Helpless to change things around us and out of control? I think her pro-activeness is inspiring. Too bad we can't all physically battle injustice! Wait, actually, I'm not sure I'd want to fight a battle.....


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## Rhiannon (Sep 27, 2003)

Behold...a pic of Eowyn as Dernhelm! *keels over*


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## Aulë (Sep 27, 2003)

Sheesh... 

You people are mad. 
I come in here and hassle you about a couple of things that Eowyn did wrong in a lighthearted way, and you people go insane... 
Of course I know that Eowyn didn't kill Merry, of course I know that she was an integrel part of the story. But I was just having some fun. But you decide that I have insulted you in the worst way possible...

Eowyn wasn't perfect. She had her flaws.
But you people are so stubborn about her that you fail to see that.

She put the people of Rohan in danger by leaving them to fight till the death. Just because they had defeated Saruman, didn't mean that they were out of the woods. If it weren't for the Ents, Rohan would have been attacked from the north from Misty Mountain Orcs. If that had occurred, Rohan would have needed a strong leader such as Eowyn to direct them. All the other leaders were off at the Pelennor.


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## Thuringwethil (Sep 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Aulë _
> I come in here and hassle you about a couple of things that Eowyn did wrong in a lighthearted way, and you people go insane...
> Of course I know that Eowyn didn't kill Merry, of course I know that she was an integrel part of the story. But I was just having some fun. But you decide that I have insulted you in the worst way possible...
> 
> ...



I can answer only for myself, but maybe others feel the same way.. I recognized your horseplay, and reacted accordingly. I am "sharp-tongued" so maybe it seemed as I had 'went crazy', but actually it was veeeeery far away from 'insanity' yet. One has to insult me quite a lot more before brimstone really starts to burn.

And stubborn as I am, I still see Eowyn's flaws, and that's why she makes so interesting character. As I already said, btw.




> She put the people of Rohan in danger by leaving them to fight till the death. Just because they had defeated Saruman, didn't mean that they were out of the woods. If it weren't for the Ents, Rohan would have been attacked from the north from Misty Mountain Orcs. If that had occurred, Rohan would have needed a strong leader such as Eowyn to direct them. All the other leaders were off at the Pelennor.



Greatest danger was in east. War was in east. Hithaeglir orcs were diminished and leaderless. Saruman's troops even more completely trashed. You say yourself that ents were there. So were elves of Lorien. Only threat was some kind of random marauders, no organized army was anywhere near. Riders left behind would've done just fine with their lesser officers alone. And did.

And, she had to leave. Staying might have meant her death, by her own hand. She was on her limits, and thus not a good leader anymore. But it also made her capable to face the Witch-King. Who else can confront Death but one who seeks It? And although she couldn't know she'd end up fighting nazgul, she knew she'd be more use in battlefield than in fortress.

And for "having fun".. So am I. Play the play or have a hike.


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## Aulë (Sep 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Thuringwethil _
> Greatest danger was in east. War was in east. Hithaeglir orcs were diminished and leaderless. Saruman's troops even more completely trashed. You say yourself that ents were there. So were elves of Lorien. Only threat was some kind of random marauders, no organized army was anywhere near. Riders left behind would've done just fine with their lesser officers alone. And did.[/B]



But did Eowyn know that the Ents were going to be there to save Rohan? No. She put herself ahead of her people, and put them in grave danger. Treebeard said himself that if not for the Ents, Rohan would have been completely destroyed and King Eomer would have had no Kingdom to return to. Lorien would not have cared about the perils of Rohan (Well....at least not in Tolkien's version  ).
But as you said, the Ents _did_ come and save the day, and in hindsight, Eowyn made the correct decision. But when she made her decision to ride to war, she was extremely selfish.

btw, I noticed that Rhiannon said before that Merry only 'stabbed' the Witch-King to give Eowyn the chance to kill him. Well, he certainly did a lot more than that: for the Westernesse sword he used broke the spell of the Witch-King, and had he not done that, Eowyn's stab would have been useless.

Anyway...I mustn't have irritated Rhi _too_ much with my rantings...she hasn't called a pox on me (yet)


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## Rhiannon (Sep 27, 2003)

> You people are mad.
> I come in here and hassle you about a couple of things that Eowyn did wrong in a lighthearted way, and you people go insane...
> Of course I know that Eowyn didn't kill Merry, of course I know that she was an integrel part of the story. But I was just having some fun. But you decide that I have insulted you in the worst way possible...


You had it coming!  Coming in my thread and causing trouble on purpose, tsk tsk...



> Eowyn wasn't perfect. She had her flaws.
> But you people are so stubborn about her that you fail to see that.


_Not_ true, as I said above I _admire_ her _for_ her flaws. As a literary character she is so much more accessable than, say, Arwen, because she has flaws, because she has hurdles to overcome. 


> She put the people of Rohan in danger by leaving them to fight till the death. Just because they had defeated Saruman, didn't mean that they were out of the woods. If it weren't for the Ents, Rohan would have been attacked from the north from Misty Mountain Orcs. If that had occurred, Rohan would have needed a strong leader such as Eowyn to direct them. All the other leaders were off at the Pelennor.


The book! I want to hear it _from the book!_ Are you so sure the people of Rohan were so totally unprotected? Hm? 



> Eowyn wasn't perfect. She had her flaws.
> But you people are so stubborn about her that you fail to see that.


Not at all- as I said above, I _admire_ her for her flaws. This is an Eowyn _admiration_ thread, for general discussion of the fascinating character, not an Eowyn blind-hero-worship thread. 



> I can answer only for myself, but maybe others feel the same way.. I recognized your horseplay, and reacted accordingly. I am "sharp-tongued" so maybe it seemed as I had 'went crazy', but actually it was veeeeery far away from 'insanity' yet. One has to insult me quite a lot more before brimstone really starts to burn.


Hear hear! Believe me, if you had _really_ ticked me off, Aule, I would have bitten your head off already. But if you're going to pick a fight, better get your duces up! Up, lad!



> And stubborn as I am, I still see Eowyn's flaws, and that's why she makes so interesting character. As I already said, btw.


Hear, hear! This is a thread for Eowyn _admiration_, and general discussion of Eowyn as a character, not for Eowyn blind-hero-worship (although plenty of that might go on). 



> But did Eowyn know that the Ents were going to be there to save Rohan? No. She put herself ahead of her people, and put them in grave danger. Treebeard said himself that if not for the Ents, Rohan would have been completely destroyed and King Eomer would have had no Kingdom to return to.


QUOTES, man, back yourself up! I'll accept only direct quotes from Tolkien as any sort of proof. Proof first, repsonse later. I don't mind you playing devil's advocate- makes things more lively in here- but do it properly!



> But when she made her decision to ride to war, she was extremely selfish.


It's important to note here that _no one is denying this_. Yes, Eowyn was placing herself first, before the wishes of her king and possibly her people (whether this was a dereliction of duty is subjective). Whether it was the _right_ decision was subjective. On an _individual level_, for Eowyn herself, it was definitely the right action. Being pro-active, breaking free of the role that was trapping and suffocating her- it was perhaps the only thing she could have done to well and truly be free of her depression. True, the depression didn't end _immediately_, it didn't end until she accepted Faramir's unconditional love, _but_ by freeing herself she made it possible for her to accept that love. Had she waited in Rohan, she might, at some later date, have met Faramir, but I think her depression and self-loathing (because she 'skulked in the hills' and din't take action) would have prevented her from finding healing. 



> btw, I noticed that Rhiannon said before that Merry only 'stabbed' the Witch-King to give Eowyn the chance to kill him. Well, he certainly did a lot more than that: for the Westernesse sword he used broke the spell of the Witch-King, and had he not done that, Eowyn's stab would have been useless.


I didn't say that, although someone up-thread might have. My point is that _neither_ stroke would have been effectual without the other. It's so simple! Only those two, under those circumstances, could have slain the witch-king. Eowyn just happened to deal the final blow, but she couldn't have done it without Merry any more than he could have done it without her. 



> Anyway...I mustn't have irritated Rhi too much with my rantings...she hasn't called a pox on me (yet)


But I _could_...I am one of the wyrd sisters, you know. I deal in fate  You just watch yourself!


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## Thuringwethil (Sep 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Aulë _
> But did Eowyn know that the Ents were going to be there to save Rohan? No.



No? She didn't know that ents had wrecked Isengard? She didn't know they were guarding Saruman? She didn't know huorns had annihilated thousands of uruk-hai at Helm's deep? Or should she have supposed ents suddenly just stop caring? It was war of the ents, too.

And if Eowyn "put her people in danger" by leaving, how much more did Theoden and Eomer so? They took what, 6000 riders and best officers with them. Eowyn took one horse and a hobbit.

More importantly; Eowyn did not believe Rohan was in immediate or grave danger. She sought for battle. She did not believe the battle would take place in Rohan. Also she made an excellent point about "women burning with their houses". If the war had been lost in east, there wouldn't be kingdoms for _anyone_ except Sauron and his minions. Siege of Minas Tirith was turning point, much more important than Rohan. Everybody were in danger, everywhere. So saying Eowyn "left her people in danger" is absurd. There was no safety.

And again this "selfish" comment..  Once more: she *had* to do it. She was *dying*. Much good had it been to Rohan if she had slashed her wrists in Dunharrow. Is this some "guy thing" as not to understand quite basic psychology? She couldn't lead the people anymore. Repeat: _she could not lead_.

Obedience was killing her; selfishness saved her life. I admire her for that. I *don't* admire "nice girls" who do as they're told.



> btw, I noticed that Rhiannon said before that Merry only 'stabbed' the Witch-King to give Eowyn the chance to kill him. Well, he certainly did a lot more than that: for the Westernesse sword he used broke the spell of the Witch-King, and had he not done that, Eowyn's stab would have been useless.



Then you have references to support this? Because what I've read, the spell mentioned was one that connected the wraith's ethereal "limbs" to his mind. Breaking it only crippled him, no more. Of course if somewhere it is said that the spell was some kind of "protection from blades", I'll think this over, but so far haven't seen anything.

Of course Merry's stab was extremely important; it distrupted nazgul's strike that would've ended Eowyn then and there. Plus crippled wraith is easier to hit; very handy if one has her left arm splintered and other nuisances. So it's not "Eowyn's stab would've been useless" but "Eowyn wouldn't been able to stab at all".


_Edit: Cross-posted with Rhiannon, but not too much of "echoing" I think.. And anyway, she made several points better than me.  _


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## Aulë (Sep 27, 2003)

Quotes, quotes, quotes.....you people demand to see quotes. So I had better provide them before I go to bed.



> _RotK: The Battle of the Pelennor Fields_
> But suddenly he too stumbled forward with a cry of bitter pain, and his stroke went wide, driving into the ground. Merry's sword had stabbed him from behind, shearing through the black mantle, and passing up beneath the hauberk had pierced the sinew behind his mighty knee.
> 'Éowyn! Éowyn!' cried Merry. Then tottering, struggling up, with her last strength she drove her sword between crown and mantle, as the great shoulders bowed before her. The sword broke sparkling into many shards. The crown rolled away with a clang. Éowyn fell forward upon her fallen foe. But lo! the mantle and hauberk were empty. Shapeless they lay now on the ground, torn and tumbled; and a cry went up into the shuddering air, and faded to a shrill wailing, passing with the wind, a voice bodiless and thin that died, and was swallowed up, and was never heard again in that age of this world.
> 
> ...






> _RotK: Many Partings_
> _'Hoom_, well, that is fair enough,' said Treebeard; 'for to be sure Ents have played their part. And not only in dealing with that, _hoom_, that accursed tree-slayer that dwelt here. For there was a great inrush of those, _burárum_, those evileyed - blackhanded - bowlegged - flinthearted - clawfingered - foulbellied - bloodthirsty, _morimaite - sincahonda_, _hoom_, well, since you are hasty folk and their full name is as long as years of torment, those vermin of orcs; and they came over the River and down from the North and all round the wood of Laurelindórenan, which they could not get into, thanks to the Great ones who are here.' He bowed to the Lord and Lady of Lórien.
> 'And these same foul creatures were more than surprised to meet us out on the Wold, for they had not heard of us before; though that might be said also of better folk. And not many will remember us, for not many escaped us alive, and the River had most of those. *But it was well for you, for if they had not met us, then the king of the grassland would not have ridden far, and if he had there would have been no home to return to.*'
> 'We know it well,' said Aragorn, 'and never shall it be forgotten in Minas Tirith or in Edoras.'


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## Thuringwethil (Sep 27, 2003)

> Merry's sword had stabbed him from behind, shearing through the black mantle, and passing up beneath the hauberk had pierced the sinew behind his mighty knee.
> 
> ...
> 
> No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.



I know these lines quite well, but all I see is sinews. Yes, magical sinews, but still nothing that sounds vital. I meant to ask if in the _Letters_ or somewhere else would be additional information.

Importance of Westernesse blade was propably that an ordinary weapon wouldn't make a scratch. This indicates that also Eowyn's sword was of older heritage, and this is reasonable since Gondor armed Rohan, and mightier gifts to noble families do not sound impossible.



> But it was well for you, for if they had not met us, then the king of the grassland would not have ridden far, and if he had there would have been no home to return to.



Does this mean the army Theoden and Eomer had with them, wouldn't been enough to drive orcs away? Then what difference would Eowyn make with smaller troops?

And finally, like Rhiannon said, we admire Eowyn *because* she had the courage to disobey and think herself. But of course some other people prefer nice and quiet girls who behave and do as their father/husband/brother/boyfriend commands, no complaints or questions asked..


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## Aulë (Sep 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Thuringwethil _
> *And finally, like Rhiannon said, we admire Eowyn because she had the courage to disobey and think herself. But of course some other people prefer nice and quiet girls who behave and do as their father/husband/brother/boyfriend commands, no complaints or questions asked..  *


This was no 'father/husband/brother/boyfriend' who she disobeyed. She disobeyed her King. She swore an oath to obey him, yet she broke that oath by leaving her people.
Eowyn = Oathbreaker



> Does this mean the army Theoden and Eomer had with them, wouldn't been enough to drive orcs away? Then what difference would Eowyn make with smaller troops?


No, Treebeard was saying that when Eomer returned from Gondor, Rohan would have been destroyed. Eomer most likely would have been able to rid Rohan of the Orcs, but all the women and children would have been killed. Eowyn was a leader, and would have been able to rally her people to probably tough it out until Eomer returned. But even if she couldn't do that, she would have been able to fight till the death- no cages or anything like that.



> I know these lines quite well, but all I see is sinews. Yes, magical sinews, but still nothing that sounds vital. I meant to ask if in the Letters or somewhere else would be additional information.
> 
> Importance of Westernesse blade was propably that an ordinary weapon wouldn't make a scratch. This indicates that also Eowyn's sword was of older heritage, and this is reasonable since Gondor armed Rohan, and mightier gifts to noble families do not sound impossible.


sinews: The source or mainstay of vitality and strength. 
 

If not for Merry's sword, Eowyn's swords (an ordinary sword of Rohan) would have done nothing.


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## Confusticated (Sep 28, 2003)

Regarding the breaking of the spell which held the unseen sinew to the will of the Witch-king...

My interpretation is that this means Merry and his sword broke the magic which had given the Witch-king an unnaturally long life.

The holding of the sinews (and any other body part) to the will of the man, in more plain and simple terms is this: The connection of the body with the spirit.

Some spell caused the spirit to hold onto the body regardless of how old it was, or what wounds it might take. It was the breaking of this spell which made the Witch-king into a thing that could die - departure of spirit from body.

It must have been because of this spell that Gandalf knew beyond a doubt that the nazgul did not die in the flood, and also the reason Glorfindel (probably the most mighty warrior in Middle-earth), whom the Witch-king himself fled from long ago, used fire to keep the Nazgul (who were affraid of him, mind you) away, rather than killing them - they could not be killed due to the spell.


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## Beleg (Sep 28, 2003)

> My interpretation is that this means Merry and his sword broke the magic which had given the Witch-king an unnaturally long life.
> 
> The holding of the sinews (and any other body part) to the will of the man, in more plain and simple terms is this: The connection of the body with the spirit.
> 
> Some spell caused the spirit to hold onto the body regardless of how old it was, or what wounds it might take. It was the breaking of this spell which made the Witch-king into a thing that could die - departure of spirit from body.



Hmm...But why was it only Merry's blade [Which afterall was a Numenorean one and there is no doubt other like it were being used by Numenoreans] which pierced the Witch-King and broke of the spell? If we take for granted that the speciality in Merry's blade was that it was enchanted, the Question arises was not the Witch King ever assaulted before by an Arnorian Dunedain weilding the weapons of same caste and potent?


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## Celebthôl (Sep 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Beleg _
> *Hmm...But why was it only Merry's blade [Which afterall was a Numenorean one and there is no doubt other like it were being used by Numenoreans] which pierced the Witch-King and broke of the spell? If we take for granted that the speciality in Merry's blade was that it was enchanted, the Question arises was not the Witch King ever assaulted before by an Arnorian Dunedain weilding the weapons of same caste and potent? *



He may very well have been, but they may not have gotten a stroke against him, so the spell was never broken, plus not to many could have faced the Witch-king without being put under a certain spell, hobbits were resilliant and could probibly have be less effected by the W-K's spells.


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## Beleg (Sep 28, 2003)

> He may very well have been, but they may not have gotten a stroke against him, so the spell was never broken, plus not to many could have faced the Witch-king without being put under a certain spell, hobbits were resilliant and could probibly have be less effected by the W-K's spells.



You talk as if WitchKing employed certain spells to bewitch his enemies? What spells are these? 
Although your answer makes sense but It does seem strange that an Arnorian blade is necessary to break the 'spell'. 

Btw, what do you think is the speciality in the blade?
Is it magical enchantment?
What type of Magical Enchantment?
Does it mean that Numenorean themselves employed 'magic'?


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## Celebthôl (Sep 28, 2003)

The one that terrifies people, the black-breath etc. . . if someone came face to face with the witch-king, they would be cowering from him, unless they were VERY brave. . .


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## Rhiannon (Sep 28, 2003)

> This was no 'father/husband/brother/boyfriend' who she disobeyed. She disobeyed her King. She swore an oath to obey him, yet she broke that oath by leaving her people.


Where's the oath? Let me see it. Where's the direct oath to remain with the people? 



> No, Treebeard was saying that when Eomer returned from Gondor, Rohan would have been destroyed. Eomer most likely would have been able to rid Rohan of the Orcs, but all the women and children would have been killed. Eowyn was a leader, and would have been able to rally her people to probably tough it out until Eomer returned. But even if she couldn't do that, she would have been able to fight till the death- no cages or anything like that.


_I_ think Treebeard was not talking about the people of Rohan, but the land itself; the fields, towns, etc., which would have been burned/pillaged/destroyed if an army of orcs had gone through. The people of Rohan were in a secure, protected fortress, and Eowyn's presence would have made no significant difference in its defense. 



> sinews: The source or mainstay of vitality and strength.


That is only the _third_ definition. The first definition, and the one meant here, is _obviously_ '1. A tendon.'



> If not for Merry's sword, Eowyn's swords (an ordinary sword of Rohan) would have done nothing.


This is debatable, but really I think it's irrelevant. 

Nom, thank you for your excellent post of the subject! 



> Hmm...But why was it only Merry's blade [Which afterall was a Numenorean one and there is no doubt other like it were being used by Numenoreans] which pierced the Witch-King and broke of the spell? If we take for granted that the speciality in Merry's blade was that it was enchanted, the Question arises was not the Witch King ever assaulted before by an Arnorian Dunedain weilding the weapons of same caste and potent?


Don't forget the 'No living man'- Merry is a hobbit, not a Man.


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## Aulë (Sep 28, 2003)

> Where's the oath? Let me see it. Where's the direct oath to remain with the people?


All citizens of Rohan would have sworn an oath similar to the one Merry swore when they became a certain age.



> _RotK_
> No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.


In context, you can see that in this case 'sinews' isn't referring to a tendon.


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## Rhiannon (Sep 28, 2003)

_Was Eowyn ever directly ordered to *stay* with the people_? Show me!


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## Aulë (Sep 28, 2003)

Look in the debate I showed you before.
Most of it is based on how she was. I can't be bothered fishing out quotes at this time of night... 
ZZZzzz


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## Rhiannon (Sep 28, 2003)

I read the debate, and I disagreed with most of it. But if you can show me in the book that Eowyn was breaking a direct order, I'll accept it. 

But it _has_ to be out of the book.


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## Aulë (Sep 28, 2003)

OK- I'll hunt it down tomorrow.

btw, I suggest you get your paws on the RotK trailor from TORn. It has some more footage of Eowyn, as well as a couple of lines from her: something that I believe you will enjoy.


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## Rhiannon (Sep 28, 2003)

It took me _six hours_ to download (muttering 'almost halfway...four shots of Arwen and not one of Eowyn yet! What gives?'), but I _did_ enjoy it immensly  I went to see _Secondhand Lions_, which is supposed to have a longer preview, but my evil theatre didn't show it. It was a fun movie, though.


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## Starflower (Sep 29, 2003)

Actually only person Theoden DIRECTLY ORDERED to stay behind was Merry, he couldn't have ordered Eowyn to stay behind to lead the people, Eowyn did not have such duty to fulfill, she was not the heir to the throne, and more so being a woman it was higly unusual for Theoden even to ask her to stay, and he did so only at Gandalf's suggestion . So yes - she was disobeying by coming along, but as Thuringwethil said in an earlier post, had she stayed, she would more than likely killed herself.


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## Aulë (Sep 29, 2003)

> _The Passing Of The Grey Company_
> [coversation between Aragorn and Eowyn]
> “’You are a stern lord and resolute,’ she said’ ‘and thus do men win renown.’ She paused. ‘Lord,’ she said, ‘if you must go, then let me ride in your following. For I am weary of skulking in the hills, and wish to face peril and battle.’
> 
> ...


So Eowyn was appointed the task of looking after the people until Theoden returned. The next day, Theoden returned to Dunharrow, but we were not told whether she was relieved of her duty.
In fact, Theoden goes on to say this to Merry:


> _The Muster of Rohan_
> The king turned to Merry. 'I am going to war, Master Meriadoc,' he said. 'In a little while I shall take the road. I release you from my service, but not from my friendship. You shall abide here, and if you will, *you shall serve the Lady Éowyn, who will govern the folk in my stead.'*


So King Theoden obviously had expected Eowyn to remain in Rohan.


Anyway Rhi: did you see that glimpse of Eowyn at the end of that trailor, where she is revealing herself to the Witch-King?


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## Rhiannon (Sep 29, 2003)

> Anyway Rhi: did you see that glimpse of Eowyn at the end of that trailor, where she is revealing herself to the Witch-King?



I did I did! I went over it frame by frame several times. That thud was me hitting the floor.

I'm late for economics, I'll have to argue with you some more later. But that Theoden _expected_ Eowyn to remain at Dunharrow is obvious; the question is was she _ordered_ to, and therefore breaking an oath by leaving.


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## Rhiannon (Oct 1, 2003)

Here is something I hadn't noticed before, that brings (at least to me) a new light to the argument on Merry vs. Eowyn:


> "For it is said in the songs of the Mark that in this deed Eowyn had the aid of Theoden's esquire, and that he also was not a Man but a Halfling out of a far country, though Eomer gave him honour in the Mark and the name of Holdwine."


From a footnote to the Third Line of the Kings of the Mark in Appendix A. 

"He _also_ was not a Man" suggests to me that the 'spell' was referring specifically to a male of the race of Men. 



> RotK
> No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.
> 
> In context, you can see that in this case 'sinews' isn't referring to a tendon.



No I _don't_ see, actually. The corporeal nature of the Nazgul's body is in doubt (the guy had no _head!_), which would account for the 'unseen', but even then the 'sinews' could very well be referring to tendons. It's the 'breaking the spell that' bit that we're really worried about, isn't it? It suggests that the blade itself was responsible for breaking the 'spell' that protected the Nazgul. _However_, even with the 'spell' broken, would a man have been able to strike a killing blow with an ordinary blade, as Eowyn did? I think the footnote quoted above says not, making Eowyn and Merry equally responsible for the Witch King's demise. 



> So yes - she was disobeying by coming along, but as Thuringwethil said in an earlier post, had she stayed, she would more than likely killed herself.


Exactly, Starflower. Whether Eowyn was right on a- what to call it? political? military?- level is subjective, but that she was right on a _personal_ level can't be doubted. 

We seem to be running out of steam, but thanks, Aule, for making things a little more lively


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## Thuringwethil (Oct 3, 2003)

Wow, seems like we've found another "balrog wing", namely the exact amount and type of damage dealt by Merry's stab. Everybody has strong opinions and little evidence. Well, I've my picture and currently I'm sticking with it, but I stop preaching it.

But back to the actual argument: Eowyn disobeyed her king? So what? I like her precisely because of that. She wanted a real life, or then the end of it all, and for it she walked over rules and boundaries and traditions and oaths and whatnot. It's the behaviour I admire and also practice. Eowyn has the kind of 'edge' I find fascinating in people, and fortunately also possess in myself.

I'd rather betray my King than myself.
I'd rather break an oath than my own spirit.
I'd rather flee my duties than my own thoughts.
I'd rather abandon my family than my own soul.

Besides, as many have said, Rhiannon among the first, Eowyn's "betrayal" was a minor thing, meaning it had little negative consequenses and a lot of positive ones; and it's also easily exceeded by disobedience of Eomer, Faramir and Beregond. Faramir also broke rules, and he was in higher position than Eowyn. Eomer got 15 of his men killed. Beregond slayed his own personally. If Eowyn is a "baddie", then these three men are much, much worse.


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## Aulë (Oct 3, 2003)

But if you were a King (Or Queen), would you want your people to be disobeying you at a whim just because they feel like it? Especially if one of the greatest battles seen on Middle Earth is about to take place? Theoden was a wise King- he knew what was best for his people. And by disobeying his wishes, Eowyn put the lives of the women and children of Rohan in danger.
There is no going past that.

But if you wish to worship a disobediant woman- you do just that. I'm obviously not going to change your mind on that.



> "For her shield arm was broken by the mace of the Witch-King; but he was brought to nothing, and thus the words of Glorfindel to Eärnur were fulfilled, that the Witch-King would not fall by the hand of man. For it is said in the songs of the Mark that in this deed Eowyn had the aid of Theoden's esquire, and that he also was not a Man but a Halfling out of a far country, though Eomer gave him honour in the Mark and the name of Holdwine."


Rhi: I interpret that quote differently. But it saying "the Witch King would not fall by the hand of man" instead of "the Witch King would not fall by the hand of _a_ man", I get the impression that it is talking about race instead of gender. But the word 'man' isn't capitalised, so it still could be interpreted as gender.
But then it goes on to say that reason that Glorfindel's words were fulfilled was because Eowyn had the aid of Merry 'who was also not a man'.
Perhaps Glorfindel's words were meant to mean both gender AND race?


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## Thuringwethil (Oct 3, 2003)

> _by Aulë _
> But if you were a King (Or Queen), would you want your people to be disobeying you at a whim just because they feel like it?



Even if I were a queen, I'd make mistakes. My telepathy skills go only so far and I've got much practicing to do with my precognition. That means if somebody below me knows better than I, then s/he most certainly should use her/his own brains and forget my orders. I'm not some kind of authority addict or worshipper.



> Especially if one of the greatest battles seen on Middle Earth is about to take place?



It took place in east. Rohan skirmish was just that, a skirmish not that important in big picture. Poor women and children in Rohan, yes, but what about women and children of Minas Tirith? And yes, I know the city was evacuated. Rohan towns were also. The horde of orcs killed by ents&huorns in Wold was pitiful bunch compared to forces commanded by Witch-King. If I were the queen, I would've taken even more men to east, and everbody volunteering included. Dunharrow was a good hideout, no reason to believe it would've fallen before return of riders. A risk of course, but at the time, everything was.



> Theoden was a wise King- he knew what was best for his people.



Wise, yes, but not wise enough to notice Eowyn's condition. He certainly didn't know what was best for her. She couldn't lead anymore, and it was a mistake to put her in charge. Fortunately she had the guts to correct this mistake.



> And by disobeying his wishes, Eowyn put the lives of the women and children of Rohan in danger.



As I've said several times: she was finished as a leader. She was suicidal and depressed. Would you want a leader like that? A suicidal fighter is a good fighter, but a suicidal leader is dangerous to his/her own. And a depressed person is useless in just about anything. Plus depression can spread. Not an opinion, by the way. Basic psychology.

(And through disobeying Theoden's wish, Eowyn saved a bunch of people, possibly including the women and children of Minas Tirith. Maybe even those in Rohan.)



> There is no going past that.



Whoops, I just did. Sorry. But I have this habit of crossing useless borders.



> But if you wish to worship a disobediant woman- you do just that. I'm obviously not going to change your mind on that.



Oh, shees, thanks, I obviously would never have done that without your permission. I was so afraid that you would alter my thoughts I was born with, and which have been strengthened by nurture, culture and struggle in everyday life. Whoa, am I lucky!

No, I'm not angered, only slightly irritated (amused, too) and have some extra time in my hands.


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## Dáin Ironfoot I (Oct 3, 2003)

I may be wrong, but didn't Éowyn make arrangements for another to take over in her absence? I believe Erkenbrand or Elfhelm or somebody helped her to do that.

It seems pretty responsible to do, putting the country in the hands of someone more capable of leading. Éowyn was a poor choice of leadership in her infatuated state- she was infatuated with war and glory, with Aragorn and well... Aragorn. She would have probably ended up leading the women into the war if she stayed, and then all the refugees would've died due to her craziness.  Okay maybe not. But still, there is no denying that her role in the battle of Pelennor was vital, for it was the 'Black Captain that defeats us.' Her feat was also a encouraging push to the Ring bearer and Samwise:


> [/b]'Look at it, Mr. Frodo!' said Sam. 'Look at it! The wind's changed. Something's happening. He's not having it all his own way. His darkness is breaking up out in the world there. I wish I could see what is going on!'*
> 
> It was the morning of the fifteenth of March, and over the Vale of Anduin the Sun was rising above the Eastern shadow, and the south-west wind was blwing. Théoden lay dying on the Pelennor Fields.
> 
> ...


Judging by this context, though their hopes are still practically non existent, the light (provided by Éowyn WITHOUT HELP from Merry or other men- when she slayed the fell beast) pushed Sam that little bit further, and Frodo with him. What would have happened if they stayed to rest there if there was no encouraging light- would Gollum have gotten his revenge? Would orcs have discovered them?

The point is, Éowyn's disobedience was justified by her vital role in the success of the men and the ring bearer. What would have happened if the Fell Beast and Witch King were not killed? And what would have happened if Frodo and Sam stayed in their position just a while longer? It is hard to tell, but I do know that Tolkien made every event lead to another, so that everyone's role in his stories (minor to main) have a vital role in the storyline. So as far as I'm concerned, Éowyn did not put the lives of her people in danger, instead she saved them. And she did it in the best way she knew how.


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## Rhiannon (Oct 3, 2003)

> Rhi: I interpret that quote differently. But it saying "the Witch King would not fall by the hand of man" instead of "the Witch King would not fall by the hand of a man", I get the impression that it is talking about race instead of gender. But the word 'man' isn't capitalised, so it still could be interpreted as gender.
> But then it goes on to say that reason that Glorfindel's words were fulfilled was because Eowyn had the aid of Merry 'who was also not a man'.
> Perhaps Glorfindel's words were meant to mean both gender AND race?



Frankly I do not follow that at _all_. It is _obvious_ that the Witch King perished through the concerted efforts of Eowyn _and_ Merry, and that neither could have done it without the other. 



> Theoden was a wise King- he knew what was best for his people.
> 
> Wise, yes, but not wise enough to notice Eowyn's condition. He certainly didn't know what was best for her.



Exactly right, Thuringwethil. I don't believe that Eowyn broke any specific oath, but of course that is debatable, since it doesn't actually _say_. I concede the point that far. But I maintain that 
1) Eowyn was making the right choice for _herself_.
2) The women and children of Rohan were put in no additional danger by her absence



> Whoops, I just did. Sorry. But I have this habit of crossing useless borders.



Hah!



> So as far as I'm concerned, Éowyn did not put the lives of her people in danger, instead she saved them. And she did it in the best way she knew how.


HEAR HEAR, well put, Dain.

I'm not sure if Eowyn specifically arranged for someone to take her place, but we _do_ know that she had the assistance of Elfhelm in her disguise- he certainly judged her to be of more use with the Riders than left behind.


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## Prince Tumandil (Nov 27, 2003)

Hail Rhiannon! Quite a lively thread you have here. Oi, oi, where to start?

Comparing the ladies of Middle-Earth 
Galadriel: I'm very disappointed in their choice for her. She was supposed to be the most beautiful woman (elven or otherwise) of that age, and I think they failed miserably there. I realize that they wanted someone with natural beauty (I don't think someone like Morgan Fairchild would have worked well for this), but Cate Blanchett is practically homely (IMO). I think Miranda Otto would have been a much better choice -- but, oh well. 

Arwen: I'm pretty happy with Liv Tyler in this role. However, try not to hate (or dislike) Liv; it's not her fault PJ has overused and abused that character. And as for the character herself; yes she did very little in the story, but by this time the elves had finally wearied of middle-earth, and there were very few who would actually leave their lands to participate in the events of that time. Legolas and the sons of Elrond were pretty much it. Arwen also "came out" and involved herself with the affairs of men (after the war was over), but only because she was in love with one. This was _long_ after the last alliance of elves and men, during the Second Age, when the elves actively fought against Sauron (which makes the Elven army showing up at Helm's Deep so ludicrous).

Eowyn: I'm extremely happy with their choice of Miranda Otto for this part! She seemed to be a good choice when I first saw brief glimpses of her in the TT trailer. But then I was able to see more of her in the movie itself, and I think she is an incredibly beautiful woman!! I have to disagree with Beleg there (but then, everybody is entitled to their own opinion). At least they did well by Eowyn.

About Eowyn herself A whiney person? Not hardly! A severely depressed person (with extra help from Worntongue) who had too much honor to just take her own life.


> ... then she gave the cup to Aragorn and he drank and he said 'Farewell, Lady of Rohan! I drink to the fortunes of your house, and of you, and of all your people. Say to your brother: beyond the shadows we may meet again!' Then it seemed to Gimli and Legolas who were nearby that she wept, and in one so stern and proud that seemed the more grievous.


 A traitor? Maybe if she had just run away to save herself -- but not in doing what she did. Yes she sought death, but she did so by seeking to give her life to strike whatever blows she could against the enemy (and certainly nothing selfish in that). 

Did she doom her people left behind by not staying with them? No. BTW, bravo to you Rhi for pointing out that she couldn't have saved them by staying behind (I was wondering, as I read through this thread, if someone was going to point that out). Their final stand might have been a little braver and a little longer had she been with them, but without the Ent's intervention, it still would have been their end nevertheless considering the force they faced. Some here have said it was a mistake to order her to lead her people, because she was not able to lead in her state of mind. I disagree. I believe, given troops and pointed in the direction of the enemy, she could have lead as well and valiantly as any. But her charges were the very young and the very old; it was more of a babysitting job than a leadership role.

Then we come to the Pelennor Fields (which seems to be the major source of contention here): Did it take both her and Merry to defeat the Lord of the Nazgûl? Yes. It was because of Eowyn being there, and in danger, that Merry found the courage to strike him:


> Eowyn it was, and Dernhelm also. For into Merry's mind flashed the memory of the face that he saw at the riding from Dunharrow: the face of one that goes seeking death, having no hope. Pity filled his heart and great wonder, and suddenly the slow-kindled courage of his race awoke. He clenched his hand. *She should not die, so fair, so desperate! At least she should not die alone, unaided.*


 And, of course, his Westernesse blade broke the spell which allowed Eowyn's normal sword to strike the fatal blow. Could have a man, with an ordinary blade, also have struck that same fatal blow? Yes (provided he could muster the will and courage to smite the Nazgûl Lord). But that was not his fate, as foretold by Glorfindel, to be brought down by the hand of man. I've heard people say (not in this thread) that Tolkien was very chauvinistic in his handling of women his story. But I can't see how they can say that, when the greatest enemy struck down (directly), was by the hand of a woman.

And finally, did Eowyn disobey orders or break an oath? Yes, she did. But how many times in history has great good been accomplished only by someone breaking orders? How many of the Rohirrim regretted her saving their King's corpse from be despoiled? Or worse, from an agonizing death as the Nazgûl's mount ripped into his still living body?! Here is what I feel is ultimately important:


> It was not long before Gandalf himself came in search of them. He stooped over Merry and caressed his brow; then lifted him carefully. 'He should have been borne in honour into this city.' he said. 'He has well repaid my trust; for if Elrond had not yielded to me, neither of you would have set out; and then *far more grievous would the evils of this day have been*.'


 This also applies to Eowyn's part in that, and for myself, I agree with Gandalf.

All in all, she was an incredible character, and responsible for some of the most moving parts of the book. At least we don't have to worry whether we will get to see the Houses of Healing - Faramir/Eowyn scene (since it will be in the EE version of the DVD). What we _do_ have to worry about, is whether PJ will butcher it like he has done to so much of the movie so far. 

Anyway, that's my 2¢ worth.


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## Rhiannon (Nov 29, 2003)

Welcome, Prince Tumandil! I like anyone who can write about Eowyn so eloquently  Excellent points and we're glad to have you!


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## King Aragorn (Dec 2, 2003)

Eowyn is one of my favorite characters in the LOTR trilogy. I was looking forward to see her in the movies after I read the book. I can't wait to see her in ROTK. I think that they made a wonderful decision when they chose Miranda Otto for the part of Eowyn. She does a really good job playing Eowyn. I'm impressed with her talent to play a part naturally and to do a really good job with it.


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## Elfhelm25 (Dec 3, 2003)

I also loved Eowyn ! She kicked butt in so many ways ! Sometimes it's a lot harder to sit around waiting feeling helpless then having the oppourtunity to do something about it, and Eowyn always kept her wits and charged through the king's "illness" with Wormtongue and then with the grief of seeing everything and everyone she loved riding off to their likely deaths while she was trapped. There's a girl with some character, to be brave enough to accept her given role and also fight for what she believed ! Whoo to Eowyn !


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## Rhiannon (Dec 3, 2003)

Hurrah! Glad to see you gentlemen (I hope you _are_ gentlemen...if not I apologize). Obviously I think Eowyn is the greatest thing before _or_ since sliced bread  

I was really happy with Miranda Otto as Eowyn- I felt she approached the character the right way (of course I had some problems with the script  but oh well)


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## laurelindorenan (Dec 7, 2003)

RhiannonÖ Of course Eowyn is the best thing since sliced bread! Who couls say otherwise_ She is beautiful, brave, courageous, loving and cares for all and fears little. I think she deserves every word of praise on this page. Up Eowyn! I also approve of Miranda otto. She does capture the balance between woman and warrior, though of course she is both. Liv Tyler was also good as Arwen, but it wasnt her fault about the plot mix up.
I am also confused about the whole Man could not kill Witch King but hobbit can, or man could not kill Witch King but woman can, thing. I am befuddled. Anyway, praise to Eowyn!


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## King Aragorn (Dec 11, 2003)

I'm not a gentleman, but I still love Eowyn. Have any of you heard the song she sings? I think that it is interesting, and I want the lyrics to that last few lines. I only have the lyrics to the first two. If anybody on this thread can help me, I would really appreciate it.


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## Arebeth (Dec 11, 2003)

I'd like to find them too... I don't have the first lines either, in fact . But if anyone can help...


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## Rhiannon (Dec 11, 2003)

At least some of them were posted in the movie forums somewhere *waves hand vaguely*


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## Pippin/Frodo (Dec 12, 2003)

Hello all!

I saw the siggy in the Quotable Quotes thread and decided to come check things out.
I LOVE EOWYN.
She is the queen of Grace and Poise not to mention strength among women, courage, and a wonderful spirit!
Can I join?


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## Rhiannon (Dec 12, 2003)

Of course! People with that particular quote in their signatures get in automatically


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## Pippin/Frodo (Dec 13, 2003)

LOL Thankee.

I love that quote! Isn't it wonderful!?

You would not believe how much I feel like Eowyn.
My friends say I AM her. I've even been told I look like Miranda Otto's Eowyn!
But I've been told so many times that I remind people of Eowyn and that I act like her so much which is really a great honor.


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## laurelindorenan (Dec 30, 2003)

By the way Rhiannon, your avatar is the best!


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## Starflower (Dec 30, 2003)

this part of the quote is the best : You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless!
'...stand between my lord and kin...' how's that for bravery! she was willing to die if it be so but not to let the NAzgul defile Tehoden's body.


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## Rhiannon (Dec 30, 2003)

laurelindorenan said:


> By the way Rhiannon, your avatar is the best!



Thanks! The lovely Nom made it  

Starflower, absolutely! Eowyn is at a point where she is ready to give up absolutely everything, she's seeking death, but she has this one thing left that she's ready to live for. I think Eowyn's relationships to the men in her life are really fascinating; and you realize, we _never_ see her interact with another woman? I think that's interesting.


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## Starflower (Dec 31, 2003)

Rhiannon said:


> I think Eowyn's relationships to the men in her life are really fascinating; and you realize, we _never_ see her interact with another woman? I think that's interesting.



I think that's very interesting as well. It probably is due to the circumstances of her childhood. Having lost her parents very young, was taken to live with her uncle the king, whose wife was also dead, and having a borther and a half-brother to look up to, no wonder she wanted to be like them. It is said in the book that Theodred was like a hero figure for both Eomer and Eowyn as he was so much older than them. It would have been interestin to know more about the relationship between Eowyn and arwen (they must have met a couple of times between Arwen arriving before the wedding and and Eowyn going back to Rohan for Theoden's funeral)... but Eowyn is definitely a strong, independent woman, and in the movie Ms Otto has captured very much of this .


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## Éomond (Dec 31, 2003)

The Éowyn Admiration Thread eh?

Well, she is my favorite woman character in the book. When I first read TTT I sorta resented her for liking Aragorn. But as I read on to how she treated Merry (knowing how he felt about being left behind), and the Pelennor Fields and killing the Witch-King (her coolest and greatest achievment), and then on to her getting married to Faramir(such a perfect fit). That's when I really liked her. Muha, she kicks Arwen bootay.

But what I also loved was her relationships with Éomer and Theoden. Éomer's and Éowyn's time in the books together seemed few, but the love and care for each other was so amazing (i.e. Houses of Healing).


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## Rhiannon (Jan 1, 2004)

> then on to her getting married to Faramir(such a perfect fit)


Tolkien wrote that Faramir came in to the story on his own, and I read a theory somewhere that Faramir showed up as a character just for Eowyn. Rhi the Romantic loves this idea 

I think the main contributer to the point Eowyn is at when we meet her in the books is that she was very isolated; she was close to her uncle and brother, but the one was under a spell and the other spent most of his time out hunting orcs. There is no mention of any other woman of rank (no mention of women doing anything at, say, the banquets; Eowyn carries out all of those sorts of duties herself), so we can assume she had no female friends to confide in. And, as close as you may be to a man, I think there are things as a girl that you just can't say to them. And certainly not to a male relative. 

I think too that Eowyn was going through something of an identity crisis. She wasn't really used to being treated as a lady, but she was stopped short of being treated as one of the men. She was stuck in between.


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## BlackCaptain (Jan 1, 2004)

Not hunting orcs, Rhiannon... Deffending his country rather. It just so happened that he was deffending them from orcs and such


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## Rhiannon (Jan 1, 2004)

BlackCaptain said:


> Not hunting orcs, Rhiannon... Deffending his country rather. It just so happened that he was deffending them from orcs and such


Well, we know that he went hunting orcs on at least one occaison. But really that's irrelevant- the point is that he was gone a lot!


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## Éomond (Jan 1, 2004)

Rhiannon said:


> I think the main contributer to the point Eowyn is at when we meet her in the books is that she was very isolated; she was close to her uncle and brother, but the one was under a spell and the other spent most of his time out hunting orcs.



What I also think about (and wonder) is her relationship Théodred. He was 17 years old when Éowyn was born, and that's a huge age-gap right there. He is mentioned to be a brother to Éowyn and Éomer, living in the same house-hold and all. But he must have been out alot like Éomer. Théodred became Second Marshal of the Riddermark (I'm guessing) between the years 3000-3010 (making him around 30 at 3008) and Éowyn would still be only a small child then, since Theodred would have been mostly in the Westmark and Helm's Deep. 

I dunno, I'm just thinking aloud, but I've just always wondered about Éowyn's relationship with Théodred.


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## Starflower (Jan 2, 2004)

Éomond said:


> What I also think about (and wonder) is her relationship Théodred. He was 17 years old when Éowyn was born, and that's a huge age-gap right there. He is mentioned to be a brother to Éowyn and Éomer, living in the same house-hold and all. But he must have been out alot like Éomer. Théodred became Second Marshal of the Riddermark (I'm guessing) between the years 3000-3010 (making him around 30 at 3008) and Éowyn would still be only a small child then, since Theodred would have been mostly in the Westmark and Helm's Deep.
> 
> I dunno, I'm just thinking aloud, but I've just always wondered about Éowyn's relationship with Théodred.




Eowyn and Eomer's relationship to Theodred is probably close akin to hero-worship on thier part, Theodred was a full warrior by the time Eowyn came to live with them, so he would have been probably more like an uncle to them.


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## Inderjit S (Jan 2, 2004)

Théodred and Éomer were said to be very close. Saruman (through Grima) attempted to split the two up and disrupt their friendship; but he was unsuccessful in his attempts. This is a testament to the friendship of Theodred and Éomer. 

I think Theodred would have played a 'big brother' role rather then a 'uncle' one. It is is probable that he taught Éomer how to fight, it is evident that he has complete trust in his cousin, as he tells Elfhelm and Grimbold that his body should remain at the fords into Éomer came. It would have been a huge blow to Éomer (and Rohan) when Theodred was slain, but in the end it may have saved Rohan as Saruman was so eager to get rid of Theodred that they paid little heed to the rest of the battle. 

We get no account or idea of Éowyn’s friendship with her cousin. Éowyn was born a Rohhiric aristocrat. Her mother was the King's sister and her father Éomund was descended from Eofor (third son of Brego) and captain of the East-Mark. It could be that she was isolated from other women. Maybe she felt women were too prim and weak for her tastes. It could be that such misconceptions were borne as a result of her lack of contact with women.


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## Pippin/Frodo (Jan 2, 2004)

Eomund,

In reply to your first post, I so felt the same way when introduced to Eowyn. Knowing that Aragorn (In my mind at least) was ment for Arwen and I was afraid she was going to brak that bond but then I knew Aragorn wouldn't let that happen and the way it worked out with Faramir was perfect. And I have to say, She doesn have a pretty Awesome brother. I loved the part in the two towers when he grabbed Grima and was pretecting his sister.

That is so like my brother and me, Actually way extremely close at the moment. See at school, there is this guy who won't leave me a lone and my brother is like always there making sure he doesn't get away with it. Huh....I just realized that simliarity.

Anyway, I agree about the situation that Eowyn is always with men and yet very rarely in a romantic situation.
I too can relate to that, having FOUR brothers and a great dad, not to mention the guys at school and church. But none romantic. Weird.

Anyway I guess all this blab is basically saying I agree with almost everything said earlier.


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## (MiThRaNdIr) (Jan 5, 2004)

*Rhiannon You Rock Girl!!*

Wow! First, I need to introduce myself, well I become a LOTR fan when the first movie came out, and I said wow. I run to the bookstore to buy the books, and I never read them until now, I already finished Fotr, and TTT, now im with Rotk, well. I had read all the post specially that ones from yours. Wow, im astonished, wow, you research about Eowyn "almost make me cry"well not, but its excellent get an A+ from my part ,I used to like Arwen but now that I have read all that wonderful things about Eowyn wow, shes the best, wow I bow to her, she's the girl.(But No living man am I!), and better than that stupid Arwen(only because she's an elf PJ{"stupid fat hobbit"} gave her precious minutes of the movie). Sorry, If I wrote something bad now or in my future messages, im not an American Im Mexican and my orthography its not very good and also my english its not good. Well, Rhiannon you rock girl, we need more people like you, Cheers and appluseses. Wohoooooo my first message.


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## Rhiannon (Jan 5, 2004)

Thanks, Mithrandir! I'm glad to know that I've been effective in converting someone  Welcome to TTF! 

When I go on one of my rants about Eowyn, my friends roll their eyes at me a lot- they love Eowyn, but they still think I'm just a wee bit off the deep end. But I tend to be...overenthusiastic?...about things that interest me, and I really enjoy researching Eowyn's character. She's fascinating, apart from being way cool and someone I can identify with. I love figuring out what makes characters tick 



> That is so like my brother and me, Actually way extremely close at the moment. See at school, there is this guy who won't leave me a lone and my brother is like always there making sure he doesn't get away with it. Huh....I just realized that simliarity.


That's so sweet! Brothers are nice, when they're not being evil (my 19 year old brother woke me up in the middle of the night asking if olive oil and vegetable oil are the same thing. "No!" "So they can't be used interchangably?" "No. Go away before I kill you.")

This is actually one thing about Eowyn that I don't identify with, though I never thought about it before. I have two brothers and a great dad, but I also have two sisters who are closer to me in age (though I'm the oldest girl), and I have never had any 'guy friends'. I only have a few really good friends, and they're all girls. I _do_ identify with her relationship with Eomer, though, because I'm close to my older brother, and there's a definite element of hero worship there, but I often feel left behind by him.


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## Niirewen (Jan 5, 2004)

Welcome to the forum, Mithrandir! 

I'm afraid I hardly relate to Eowyn in terms of relationships. I've never been very close to my father, and I do have a brother, but a younger brother, a rather _annoying_ younger brother. I've never been really close to any of my male friends, either.

Nevertheless, Eowyn fascinates me as well, and even though we don't have much in common when it comes to relationships, I am able to identify with her on other levels.


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## Pippin/Frodo (Jan 5, 2004)

I'm sorry you guys aren't blessed with brothers like mine. I am proud to be able to brag about them.
But you know younger brothers aren't all bad. The one who was standing up for me was my only younger brother, he is two years younger. The other three are older by quite a bit and the second youngest like freaks out when I talk about boys. LOL
But also I am such a dady's Girl.
I do have one sis and a good mom but we are totally out numbered by guys and I connect better with them.


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## Wonko The Sane (Jan 8, 2004)

I've always been really close to my brother, and I have more male friends than female ones...and I can identify with the feeling that Éowyn carries with her...

Atm I live with my dad and a male roommate...and most of their friends are, of course, male.
Any time there's a party, or a get-together, and even just normal day to day basis, it's me as the sole female.

They make sexist jokes, and think they're funny sometimes, and it hurts...I feel belittled for being a woman sometimes, and in that way I can identify with Éowyn. Because not only are they all male, but I'm related to one of them. And that's ANOTHER reason for them to keep me in a position of "smallness." I'm his daughter, so I'm treated like a child, and his friends just see me as a near-powerless woman figure at times.
It's frustrating...and when it's not like that I can breathe again...but every so often, I can feel what Éowyn meant by living in a cage.
Certain things are expected of you, and other things are forbidden.

It makes you want to take up a sword and a shield and seek your glory. You're treated like an equal on the surface..but if you delve deeper, you'll find you're considered somehow lesser.

I really identify with Éowyn in that way. And I understand how important it was for her to fight, and how much she really needed Faramir at the end. To find a male who won't ignore you or treat you as inferior is rare, and necessary for living a happy life.


(Don't get me wrong, my dad's great most of the time, but sometimes when he gets around all the testosterone of his friends and roommate he treats me the way the roommate does ALL the time. It's the roommate I have a problem with, and sometmes he somehow coerces my dad, without words...perhaps a shared male ego?...to perpetuate the same attitude towards me. :-/)


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## Nimawae's hope (Jan 28, 2004)

Rhiannon, I presume it's ok for me to join this thread. I'm a huge Eowyn fan, though I admit I used to be insanely jealous of her, because she got Faramir in the end. Not that she didn't deserve him....I just wanted for himself....hehe. Weird I know.  

I often feel like I do relate to Eowyn in so many ways. Most of the girls that I grew up around were all prim and proper. Most of the time I found that incredibly boring. Am I the only girl who used to play like she was a warrior? I used to like to kill myself off, and then become someone else. I don't think I ever knew anyone else like that. Even now I feel pretty different from most girls around me (despite the fact that most of my friends _are_ girls). I have dreams that I guess are uncommon for most females. Why is that?

Also despite the fact that I have never been surounded by many males (I do have my dad and two younger brothers) is different from Eowyn. I have always been a daddy's girl though. It's great.  It's weird I've always related really well to most males. I understood where they were coming from. At least most of the time. It's weird.

Anyway, I don't know what I'm rambling about accept to say that I love Eowyn, and I do understand where she is coming from.


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## Rhiannon (Jan 28, 2004)

Of course you can join! This is an open thread, not a club or anything...The only person we kick out is Aule  

I always played I was a warrior too- well, I played princesses, but my princesses were always running off in the woods and escaping and spying and doing _cool_ stuff, not just hanging around waiting to be rescued. I may have been playing with My Little Ponies, but it wasn't all sweetness and light--we divided them up into kingdoms and there was an ongoing war for a few years.


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## Pippin/Frodo (Jan 28, 2004)

I have a Greenway right behind my house and medieval themed room. Need I say more about being an Eowyn player? Beinga strong Princess I mean.
I have two swords almost as large as me, both swords of kings. And when I was younger I used to carv big sticks as my swords and fight the trees. (*Tee Hee, Dumb I know*) But I even played with my friends, about being someone special who was not afraid of pain or death.
I honestly do not, fear death, and even pain is questionable. I am not really afraid of physical pain, more the pain of losing a loved one or emotional pains of life.
Anyway I guess I say all that to say that I used to play warrior princess as well, and know I enjoy having the swords in my room and my brothers around, and being a daddy's girl and really just everything.
It's wierd though because I babysitt these kids twice a week and a lot of times more, it's wierd because I'm so cautious of their safety and life, and they are not even related to me. 
Woops, you guys don't want to hear a diary entry, or at least that's what my babbling is starting to sound like. LOL


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## Nimawae's hope (Jan 29, 2004)

So I guess there really are quite a few girls out there that really are like Eowyn, and don't want to be pinned down to one thing. They want to be able to do great things. I've always felt lucky because my dad encourages that in me, and I know there are plenty of fathers who would just be happy to see there daughters married. Rather sad actually.

I used to play sword fights with sticks too, but I was lucky enough to have siblings that I could play it with as well as trees.  It's funny, becuase I used to do that all the time, and now my parents don't my little siblings to play it because it's too dangerous. I guess they didn't mind me poking out an eye. hehe.....  

P/F: You have a Greenway? Cool. I love medieval things myself (four out of my five college courses this year are medieval related.....ridiculous I know). I just never liked the damsel in distress thing. Really boring part to play.

Just out of curiousity, how aware do all of you think Theoden and Eomer were of Eowyn's desire to be a warrior?


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## Aulë (Jan 29, 2004)

Rhiannon said:


> Of course you can join! This is an open thread, not a club or anything...The only person we kick out is Aule



Awww- But I want to nance about with you lot, and proclaim how _wonderful_ Eowyn is....and reveal how much of a traitor she is!  

EOWYN: ROHIRRM KILLER!
EOWYN: HOBBIT KILLER!
EOWYN: SPY OF SAURON!  



*stirs the fire....*


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## Nimawae's hope (Jan 29, 2004)

Aulë said:


> Awww- But I want to nance about with you lot, and proclaim how _wonderful_ Eowyn is....and reveal how much of a traitor she is!
> 
> EOWYN: ROHIRRM KILLER!
> EOWYN: HOBBIT KILLER!
> ...




*looking disturbed* Ah.....I see what Rhiannon meant now.


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## Ireth Telrúnya (Jan 29, 2004)

I like Eowyn and am glad that Tolkien portrayed her like this. Maybe he had in mind some strong women in the Bible? Though you all remember Mary Magdalene, there were some others who actually planted congregation...and in the old testament there was one woman judge.

I'm glad Eowyn found Faramir, whose father had shown so much disrespect for him. Though it would have been nice to see their love story on the screen.

By the way, I think that my country and well, Scandinavia as a whole is the frontrunner in women's rights.
My country was the first in the world to give the right for women to vote in elections in 1906.
I think for example America is still much more conservative in these issues.
We have currently woman as president of Finland and I just think it would take a lot of time before the could be woman as president of the US.

Back to the original issue: 
Eowyn's Father gave her the power over Rohan. Though I wonder what happened after she married Faramir..which of them would then be the ruler of Rohan?


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## Pippin/Frodo (Jan 29, 2004)

I played by myself with the trees not because no one would play with me but sometimes I was just angry and wanted to take it out on something. But I did used to play with my brother and my friends.
In answer to your question, I think that Eomer and Theoden were some-what aware of her wanting to go. I don't think they understood her passion though.
Yes I have a Greenway and it's lots of fun and yes medieval stuff rocks.
Talking about not so fun to act out.....
I have a drama assignment due in two weeks with a group and a book, we are acting without words so kind of miming but not like the white faced people you'd think of.
Anyway I'm sort of the leader and the teatcher gave me the biggest part and I am supposed to jump valiantly infront of a bullet to save someone at that end of our skit and die!!!!
Talk about an embarasing roll!!!


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## Niirewen (Jan 29, 2004)

> Eowyn's Father gave her the power over Rohan. Though I wonder what happened after she married Faramir..which of them would then be the ruler of Rohan?


Theoden put Eowyn in charge of Rohan while he and Eomer were off fighting. After the war, Eomer became king and ruler of Rohan. Faramir and Eowyn lived in Ithilien, I believe, but Eowyn visited Rohan often.

As a child, I grew up playing with mostly boys- I was the only girl in my court until my neighbor's little sister was born when I was about 7. I spent most of my time with my little brother and the boy who lived next door to me, who I grew up with. So I never took on any girly roles as a child- and all the kids who knew me well enough knew better than to think less of me for being a girl.


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## Rhiannon (Jan 29, 2004)

I think that Theoden and Eomer didn't really see and understand Eowyn's desire to fight. She was obviously trained and prepared for battle, raised in a household of men, but as some point that cut off and she was left on the outside. They weren't intentionally neglected her, but they just didn't _see_ it- the occaisonal density of men. She was taught, but they didn't really expect her to be inclined to use it. 



> *looking disturbed* Ah.....I see what Rhiannon meant now.


We just ignore him. He's the kind of boy who likes to play with fire ants. 



> I like Eowyn and am glad that Tolkien portrayed her like this. Maybe he had in mind some strong women in the Bible? Though you all remember Mary Magdalene, there were some others who actually planted congregation...and in the old testament there was one woman judge.


Deborah, a favorite Bible figure of mine. There are really several strong women in the Bible people don't hear about as much; Michal, David's first wife who hid is escape from Saul, Abigail who intervened with David was going to attack her husband and later became David's third wife...Just out of my recent reading.


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## celebdraug (Jan 30, 2004)

Rhiannon said:


> We just ignore him. He's the kind of boy who likes to play with fire ants./QUOTE] And wants to take over the world!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Nimawae's hope (Jan 30, 2004)

I love Deborah. She was an extremely capable woman, but for that matter so was Jael.

P/F: You felt the need to take your anger out on things too? I do that too. I punched plaster walls or trees or something really hard. Gave me bruises but I felt better. I understand that. 

I always figured that Eomer and Theoden were pretty much oblivious to her desire to fight. I'm guessing she kept it to herself anyway, beucause she had so many duties that she had to carry out instead. She felt that she must fulfill them, even though it was eating away at her. She had to deal with a lot of crud anyway when Theoden was ill (or whatever you want to call it) due to Grima's presence. Anyway, they were probably oblivious because she kept silent.


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## Ireth Telrúnya (Jan 30, 2004)

Niirewen said:


> Theoden put Eowyn in charge of Rohan while he and Eomer were off fighting. After the war, Eomer became king and ruler of Rohan. Faramir and Eowyn lived in Ithilien, I believe, but Eowyn visited Rohan often.
> 
> As a child, I grew up playing with mostly boys- I was the only girl in my court until my neighbor's little sister was born when I was about 7. I spent most of my time with my little brother and the boy who lived next door to me, who I grew up with. So I never took on any girly roles as a child- and all the kids who knew me well enough knew better than to think less of me for being a girl.



Oh I completetely forgot Eomer. I was just thinking that Boromir died as well as his father, but I forgot Eówyn's brother.
Though what would have happened if Eomer too had been killed in the battle?

Actually I was too quite "boyish" as a child. We had this forest starting right from our back yard (though the house was "a row-house" or a terrace house.. with eight apartments) and we spend quite a lot of time there building our own kind of huts and then later during the pitch black autumn nights we would go there and play hide and seek in the dark with flashlights! Oh, it was scary but very much fun! Once one guy climbed up to a spruce tree and no one could find him. Finally we had to shout him to come out from where he was hiding and then there was voice coming from this tree. You know, last time I was part of this hide and seek game, I was probably already seventeen..  There were also these huge house size boulders (remnants from ice age I later learned) in the forest. We spend some time on those boulders too. No one never hurt themselves by falling from those rocks.


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## Ireth Telrúnya (Jan 30, 2004)

Rhiannon said:


> Deborah, a favorite Bible figure of mine. There are really several strong women in the Bible people don't hear about as much; Michal, David's first wife who hid is escape from Saul, Abigail who intervened with David was going to attack her husband and later became David's third wife...Just out of my recent reading.



I haven't read much Bible lately, but I used to read it. 
I always remember Michal by that she despised her husband for dancing for the Lord like a maniac and taking off his kingly clothes. I've heard some sermons about that specifically. Though I guess she was kind of a strong woman.
To tell the truth, I don't remember these Old Testament things so easily. I remember Abigail, but then the fact that David had many wives is something I can't approve. 
First and Second Kings as well as Chronicles are such a bit of a mess I think. They drag the Ark all around the place and the each chapter says that there is another king again which either didn't or did find favor in the eyes of God and when Judea and Israel are separated it gets even more fuzzier to read. 
Anyway, I guess Deborah is my favorite woman character too. At least her story is much more easier to read.


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## Rhiannon (Jan 30, 2004)

I know the general story of the Old Testament pretty well, if only because it's taught in Sunday School over and over until you hit high school, and then they go to the New Testament and teach you the Fruits of the Spirit over and over. And over and over...Yes, this past year I skipped out on the youth group and started going to class with my parents. But anyway, the story makes sense to me, but off-topic-ness...but I don't recall it being Michal who was ashamed of David's dancing, as Saul married her off to someone else after David fled, but I'd have to look it up. 

I shuttled back and forth between being a terrible tom-boy and wanting to play princesses...and then mixing them up. Yes, little Rhi, wearing a big dress with a swirly skirt, running around in the woods behind the house toting her wooden sword, hollering blue murder. I never had any boys to play with, all my friends have always been girls, but they were the sort to be out there with me. Our favorite game was Robin Hood  

And on-topicness...I'm not sure whether Eomer and Theoden were so much oblivious to Eowyn's desire to fight- who trained her, after all? But I think they were definitely oblivious to how she felt trapped, and all of the things that led to her need to fight. I think Nimawae's right that Eowyn was really hiding all of that from them, out of a sense of duty; unlike Aragorn, who saw all of what was going on but didn't provide the outlet she needed, they were restricting her out of ignorance. They weren't expecting her to desire to fight, it just didn't occur to them...and I just went in a circle. That's a really interesting question to think about.


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## LadyDernhelm (Mar 19, 2004)

*Boo!*



> And on-topicness...I'm not sure whether Eomer and Theoden were so much oblivious to Eowyn's desire to fight- who trained her, after all? But I think they were definitely oblivious to how she felt trapped, and all of the things that led to her need to fight. I think Nimawae's right that Eowyn was really hiding all of that from them, out of a sense of duty; unlike Aragorn, who saw all of what was going on but didn't provide the outlet she needed, they were restricting her out of ignorance. They weren't expecting her to desire to fight, it just didn't occur to them...and I just went in a circle. That's a really interesting question to think about.



BOO! Remember me? It is I, Emma the Unconquerable! Come back to haunt TTF, now that my browser stopped rejection vBulletin!  

I zeroed in on just that quote, Rhianon, so my thought my be completely out of context here (as I haven't read before that. Bad me!). But I've always thought that, whether or not Theoden and Eomer realized/knew of her strength and desire to fight, and whether or not they knew she felt caged, they didn't ever consider it an option. Eowyn tells Aragorn that the women of Rohan learned to use swords long ago, but in a way that (at least to me) implies that it's not really "acceptable" for a woman to fight nowadays. I've always assumed that Eomer and Theoden never thought of Eowyn fighting because, well, women-- especially princesses-- didn't do that sort of thing.

I think they did sort of notice it, though. Look at how Theoden delegates all the responsibility to her when they leave. That can't have been exactly normal either...it seems, at least to me, as if he'd normally give responsibility to a trusted steward or something. Oh wait, his steward was just exposed as an agent of Saruman...guess not. But still, that action has always occured to me as being a sort of peace-offering - "You can't fight, but you can play Queen for a little while." Make sense?

~Lady Dernhelm~


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## laurelindorenan (Aug 12, 2004)

I agree wholeheartedly with what is said above. Eowyn was valued anyway and was seen to be worthy enough to be trusted with looking after the homestead. Its still a little, you stay at home and look after the chickens dear, but still, its a start. The element of trust and also of course as a peace offering could also help Eowyns pride. As a woman it must be tough to be left behind, but we know Eowyn didnt stand for that, did she?! By the by, my absence was unforgivable. I will try to contribute a bit more around here now. EOWYN ROCKS! There, I said it.


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## King Aragorn (Aug 12, 2004)

I agree with that too. Theoden and Eomer probably knew that she wanted to fight, but they were kind of protecting her by having her always stay behind to rule in their absence. I wonder how they felt when they found out that Eowyn had followed them to the Battle of Pelennor Fields? Besides the fact that Eomer thought that she was dead.


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## Rhiannon (Aug 12, 2004)

There's never, ever, at any time, _any_ indication in the books that anyone thought Eowyn's going to the Pelennor was the wrong thing for her to do, which I think is important--Tolkien created a world where heroism is lauded, not questioned, and even when Eomer is grieving he doesn't condemn her actions (the men of Rohan do say 'and now greatly we rue it', but I don't think that falls anywhere near the category of condemnation). 

And in other news, the wonderful emyn-arnen.net now has its own forum for Eowyn/Faramir discussions, and some really interesting topics have come up that you guys might enjoy.


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## King Aragorn (Aug 12, 2004)

I never said that Theoden or Eomer condemned Eowyn. I was just curious on what they were thinking when they found out she had gone with them.


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## laurelindorenan (Oct 23, 2004)

You think they might have been a bit annoyed at first, but then I think they would have been quite proud of her. Of course they might fear very much for her safety, so still a bit angry. Very interesting.


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## Shireman D (Dec 11, 2004)

I'm sorry I can't find the citation just at the moment but I am fairly sure that there is a JRRT reference outside LoTR to Eowen leading the defence of the glittering caves after the orcs had broken through the Deeping Wall. In that society leading would have meant being up front and armed.

I do not really think that the King would have left her in command of what these days I suppose would be called 'Homeland Defence' if he did not think that she would not have been up to leading her troops in battle. 

JRRT was drawing on a strong nordic strand of story about warrior women: don't underestimate the woman, I don't think that her uncle did.


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## Rhiannon (Dec 19, 2004)

Exactly, Shireman--excellent points! If you come across that reference again, I'd be interested in seeing it.


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## Raithnait (Mar 5, 2005)

Hullo, I'm back, the prodigal sis returning...

Eowyn Rocks, Arwen does too(in her own quiet way), but Rosie Cotton is My Role Model... because, I turned from the path of despair a long time ago, and I could never live up to Arwen, but Rosie is just a girl, just out of her Tweens, too. I can model my own character after Rosie, who is painted beautifully by Tolkien the very few times she appears in the books(Very End of the Last Book, in and around the Scouring).

But, this is of course, the Eowyn Admiration Thingy, not the Rosie Cotton Thread... 

I have some opinions on the topics recently discussed but I don't care to share them at the moment....


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## Rosalee LuAnn (Jun 28, 2005)

*jumps in*

I would like to apologise for not having read this whole thread before posting. (I did skim over the first and last pages, however.) It was kinda long, you see.

With that said, Eowyn is the best! She is my absolute favorite LOTR character. (I will admit that I was rather put down when they changed *ahem*ruined*ahem* my favorite part in thw whole series in the movies, when Eowyn kills the Nazgul. I know, I know, the dialogue was kinda long and 'high-faluting' and harder for the general masses to understand [silly people  ] but I love it! 'I am no man' is hardly even comparable! Now you can all bombard me with protests on how wonderful the movies are because I gave my honest opinion of one scene...)

And, just to go along with the last post, I love Rosie Cotton (Gamgee) too. I even, eerm, nicknamed myself after her.


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## Findulias (Jun 30, 2005)

like Rosalee LuAnn, i did not read all of it either. Eowyn is, by far, the best charecter from the books, perhaps not the movies, but by far in the books. i happen to love everything that has to do with Rohan and Eowyn especially. Probably my favorite part with her was with Faramir, and not just because it was a guy/girl part, she had some really great lines (book) like when she goes to Faramir and tells him she doesn't want to locked up anymore and her window is not facing the battle. also liked when she stabbed the witch king, but then, who doesn't?


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## cupn00dles (Jul 1, 2005)

As one of the few female characters to directly participate in the major decisive events in all eras of Arda she kicks some serious ass, yeah... In my oppinion the only female character who surpasses her in terms of bravery and audacity is Lúthien... I know it's hard to compare them since Lúthien is an elf and has Maia blood in her veins, but yet, to face Morgoth and put him to sleep is on a whole other level  But still, Eowyn rulez! And yes, she's from far the coolest female character at LOTR and one of the coolest among males and females 


P.S.: man, smart Aragorn who chose Arwen instead of her, otherwise the poor guy would suffer in her hands, if you know what I mean hahaha... Just kidding, don't be mad at me Eowyn admirers, I'm sure she would be a very caring (and WILD) husewife (damn I did it again... bad n00dles!)

P.S.2: Faramir says: "Darling I'm home!", Eowyn says: "WELCOME TO THE JUNGLE GONDOR BOY!"

P.S.3: bad n00dles, baaaad n00dles!


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## Wonko The Sane (Jan 24, 2006)

She's strong, and proud, and she's not the kind of woman you can lock away in a kitchen.
She has bravery, and she doesn't want to be left behind, but I don't think Tolkien ever states or even implies that she's some kind of bedroom Amazon.


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## Rhiannon (Jan 24, 2006)

Ye-ah. Depending on what you read into her experiences with Wormtongue, she might even be skittish, though I don't think so--not beyond the natural level, anyway. It is really funny sometimes to be skimming through fanfiction and stumble across someone's portrayal of Eowyn that's really off the wall, though.  And there's even a trend to portray her as sexually frustrated because Faramir is _too_ gentlemanly (Rhi doesn't think so. Contemplating Faramir's character and...nope, not seeing any real indicators for that... )

Off topic: Wooooooooonks!!!!!!!! *love*


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## Ermundo (Jan 24, 2006)

Why did I come to this thread....

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA 

THAT'S HILARIOUS....



...

Yeaaaaaaaa, whatever 

anyway Eowyn does kick some badass. If you want to go find out more imformation about ewoyn than go to glyphweb.com/arda


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## Aulë (Jan 24, 2006)

Rhiannon said:


> Ye-ah. Depending on what you read into her experiences with Wormtongue, she might even be skittish, though I don't think so--not beyond the natural level, anyway. It is really funny sometimes to be skimming through fanfiction and stumble across someone's portrayal of Eowyn that's really off the wall, though.  And there's even a trend to portray her as sexually frustrated because Faramir is _too_ gentlemanly (Rhi doesn't think so. Contemplating Faramir's character and...nope, not seeing any real indicators for that... )
> 
> Off topic: Wooooooooonks!!!!!!!! *love*


She is so overrated!  Pippin is the hero!


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## Wonko The Sane (Jan 27, 2006)

Rhiannon said:


> Ye-ah. Depending on what you read into her experiences with Wormtongue, she might even be skittish, though I don't think so--not beyond the natural level, anyway. It is really funny sometimes to be skimming through fanfiction and stumble across someone's portrayal of Eowyn that's really off the wall, though.  And there's even a trend to portray her as sexually frustrated because Faramir is _too_ gentlemanly (Rhi doesn't think so. Contemplating Faramir's character and...nope, not seeing any real indicators for that... )
> 
> Off topic: Wooooooooonks!!!!!!!! *love*



No, I certainly don't think she was sexually frustrated, and I don't think she was skittish. I think she was intimidated by Wormtongue a bit, because she knew he wielded the power of the king, and perhaps she knew that if he willed it, Theoden would give him to her in marriage. Also, at that point she hadn't really come into her own yet. She had the desire for valour and great deeds in battle and to go forth and live her life somewhere past the locks and bars (literal and figurative) of her life as sister-daughter to the king, but she had not yet the confidence or the opportunity or the conviction to ride forth and take it. (Though I'm sure she often dreamt of it and practised for that day!) And, as Aragorn suggests, she still loved Eomer too much to do or say anything that would go against what she felt was her duty to him, her king, and her noble family. But I think the counsel of Wormtongue and the state of the king and his household was getting to her, and she felt even more trapped than she ever would have done in normal circumstances, though I don't doubt that nothing short of open battle and glory and deep true love would calm her uneasy heart.

And let me just say, Faramir is firm, and courages, and brave, and strong, and very very sure of himself and his own mind. I don't think Eowyn wants for any attention from HIM in the bedroom department.  Woo hoo!

/rubbish drivel

OT: HEY RHI!!!!!!! *loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooove*

(I used more o's than you. )


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## Varokhâr (May 28, 2006)

Eowyn was always a fvaorite character of mine. I've always had a thing for the shieldmaiden-types, not just from a man's perspective, but I've always admired women who were courageous enough to take up sword and shield, yet still retained their femininity. 

I'm not much at all for female characters who act like men and aren't recognizable as ladies except by their names, and granted Eowyn did veer a little close to that at one point, she still remained a woman throughout. She really understood the high calling of duty and sacrifice, and was more than ready to do her part for king and country. Yes, there was an underlying dissatisfaction with life that also drove her, but I can sympathize, having felt the exact same urges many times in my years.

Eowyn is surely a character to admire in LOTR. Heck, when I was heavily into Morrowind and having an ugly time with my ex-fiancee, creating an Eowyn character and using that to remind myself of the good things about the opposite sex was fun and rather theraputic


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## Rhiannon (May 28, 2006)

Hi Varokhâr! Thank you so much for your comments. It always makes me happy to meet a man who sees Eowyn the way I do, and you summed it up perfectly. 

And it's nice to have my pet thread revived every now and then, by something other than Aule trying to pick a fight *cough*


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## Richard (Jun 5, 2006)

Eowyn is a daughter of kings. I love her indomitable spirit.


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## Halasían (Apr 15, 2021)

Eowyn.... I always had a thing for her ever since I first read the books. Of course I was crushing on Galadriel, but thought Eowyn was more 'reachable'. Eowyn is a favourite character in some of my fanfix I've written over the years.


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## Tinúviel- (Apr 16, 2021)

Eowyn is one character that encompasses the essence of a woman, perfectly.


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## Olorgando (Apr 16, 2021)

Tinúviel- said:


> Eowyn is one character that encompasses the essence of a woman, perfectly.


That is too sweeping a statement.

(_Just an aside: being retired, I have the time, and I did read the entire thread from post 1. Which was in 2003 before RoTK premiered, in fact the first post after that premiere only comes on page 7 (3rd post). Also, I would have dealt "Aulë" a short, but perhaps my most vicious verbal thrashing about his apparent "obey orders!" fixation. I'm German, one that takes a decidedly dim view on such authoritarian thought._)

As LoTR is High Fantasy, we pretty much by default mainly have characters from the nobility; Éowyn is even above that, of the royal house of Rohan, so of a _*very*_ small part of the population. One of JRRT's strokes of genius was introducing the Hobbits into his High Fantasy world - for which he sort of had to write "The Hobbit" first. And the Hobbits are us - well, Victorian-to-Edwardian English us, specifically. Starting and ending LoTR in the Shire (which drove "Hollywood" berserk - they dropped most of the ending part). The Hobbits did have their sort of "minor nobility", represented by Merry and Pippin and their families, but the "Bagginses" are already bourgeoisie. And the Gamgees, as represented by Sam, the "proletariat" capable of serious upwards mobility.

Raithnait and Rosalee LuAnn above mentioned Rosie Cotton. Certainly not a "fleshed-out" character in any sense. But she does marry that Sam Gamgee, seen by many (including JRRT himself) as the "true hero" of LoTR. Éowyn and Faramir? Arwen and Aragorn? Bah, humbug! 

Éowyn as the essence of a woman of high nobility, with all the restrictions (many) and opportunities (fewer) that come with such a social status - yes, and I do very much like the character (and Miranda Otto's depiction of her in PJ's films seems one that he didn't totally ruin). There are far more Rosie Cottons around in any world, fantasy or "real", than Éowyns. But if you take even the slightest notice (almost unavoidable) of the boulevard press's burbling, the fascination with a class that was basically abolished in Germany just over a century ago must be unbroken. Then again, the descendants of this class often look good compared to what are their main competitors for hyperventilating boulevard headlines, that "Hollywood trash". 😈


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## Ealdwyn (Apr 16, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> Éowyn is even above that, of the royal house of Rohan, so of a _*very*_ small part of the population.


I have to agree. Eowyn was not only one of a very small part of the population, but she was an anomaly within that small part, because the women of Rohan did not engage in combat. How did we know? Because she found it necessary to disguise herself; she could not ride to Minas Tirith openly. 

To our modern eyes she may possess many admirable qualities: she is brave, spirited, determined, loyal, and takes charge of her own destiny. But she is not the essence of a Middle Earth woman - she is quite the opposite.


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## Olorgando (Apr 16, 2021)

Ealdwyn said:


> To our modern eyes she may possess many admirable qualities: she is brave, spirited, determined, loyal, and takes charge of her own destiny. But she is not the essence of a Middle Earth woman - she is quite the opposite.


Yep, our modern (TV) eyes have probably been "led astray" by things like "Xena: Warrior Princess". Not that there have not been historical (European) precedents like Boadicea (the spelling of whose name varies), who rebelled at Roman "breaches of contract" that would not become the norm until about 1,900 years later, a movement ironically led by the Imperial "Britain" (quickly to be joined by former colonies west of the Atlantic). From Boadicea's point of view, I would guess, those Imperial "Britons" had been hopelessly polluted by the Anglo-Saxon and then Norman invasions. And never mind the genetic mess west of the Atlantic!


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## Halasían (Apr 16, 2021)

Per Rhiannon's essay:


Rhiannon said:


> *Shieldmaiden of Rohan*: Who trained Eowyn in weaponry is a mystery not explained--it is possible, even likely, that most women of Rohan received some instruction in such a war-like nation, but the title of ‘shieldmaiden’ suggests something further than mere competence. Its use also suggests that Eowyn is not alone in her military prowess, but the surprise and anguish when she is found on the Field of Pelennor gives the impression that women in battle were rare, even among the Rohirrim.
> ‘Warrior women’, however, already had a precedent, both in literature and history. The Norse legends of the Valkyries, armoured women were bore fallen warriors field, are familiar to many, while other women of ancient stories are less known, if no less dynamic: Bradamant, a female knight in the service of Charlemagne who appears in the epic poem _Orlando Furioso_, written by Ludovico Ariosto in 1532, Alfhild the ‘Danish female pirate’, whose saga was written down in the twelfth century by the Danish historian Saxo Grammaticus, Gwendolen and Boadicea, the warrior queens of Britain, Heira the Amazon, Queen Sammuramat of Assyria, and the Morrigan, the Celtic war goddess, are all legends that might have been known to Tolkien, and possibly served as inspirations for the character of Eowyn. There are also more modern examples of female bravery; no less than two hundred forty women are believed to have fought in the American Civil War after disguising themselves as men in order to enlist in both the Union and Confederate armies. (Sources: _Orlando Furioso_, Ludovico Ariosto; _Women Warriors_, Marianna Mayer; _She Captains: Heroines and Hellions of the Sea_, Joan Druett, and _They Fought Like Demons: Women Soldiers in the Civil War_, DeAnne Blanton and Lauren M. Cook)


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