# The Witch-King of Angmar



## Kalmanluin (Jan 31, 2003)

How long was the Witch-King alive when he was still human?
It seems to me that he was alive for all of the Third Age, and perhaps some of the Second Age as well.

When Sauron was defeated by Gil-Galad and Elendil the Witch-King continued to exist with great authority; and having a realm of his own he contributed to the destruction of Arnor and killed the king of Gondor.

Was he a wraith when all this was happening, or was he still human living the extended life granted to him by his ring?

During the "Lord of the Rings", do all the nazgul have their rings or does Sauron posses them?


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## Éomond (Feb 1, 2003)

To answer your first part, he was a Wraith once he got the his ring, so, that was most of the 1st Age, then all of the 2nd and then to the defeat of Sauron (I think)


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## Aulë (Feb 1, 2003)

The Witch King was first seen (as a Wraith) in the year 2250 of the 2nd Age. He was slayed by Merry and Eowyn in the year 3019 of the 3rd Age.

Whilst the 9 Kings were Wraiths, Sauron held the 9 Rings.

Little is known of him as a human.


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## Arvedui (Sep 26, 2005)

Éomond said:


> To answer your first part, he was a Wraith once he got the his ring, so, that was most of the 1st Age, then all of the 2nd and then to the defeat of Sauron (I think)


I think that this is probably wrong. The Witch-king was supposedly a Black Númenórean. In that case, he couldn't have existed until somewhere late in the Second Age.


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## Snaga (Sep 26, 2005)

Kalmanluin said:


> How long was the Witch-King alive when he was still human?
> It seems to me that he was alive for all of the Third Age, and perhaps some of the Second Age as well.


 That's correct: Sauron takes the Rings of Power when the elves of Eregion are defeated in 1697. We don't know when he gives the 9 to Men exactly, but the Wraiths first appear in 2251. So somewhere in that range.



Kalmanluin said:


> When Sauron was defeated by Gil-Galad and Elendil the Witch-King continued to exist with great authority; and having a realm of his own he contributed to the destruction of Arnor and killed the king of Gondor.
> 
> Was he a wraith when all this was happening, or was he still human living the extended life granted to him by his ring?


 I think this is one of those cases where there may not be an exact point where you can say he changes from human to wraith. I think that the process of 'fading' and becoming a wraith is slow and gradual, and much depends on the willpower of the individual. However one thing I've always found curious is that the Nine get no mention in the story of the Last Alliance.



Kalmanluin said:


> During the "Lord of the Rings", do all the nazgul have their rings or does Sauron posses them?


As Aule says, Sauron holds the Nine.


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## Ingwë (May 3, 2006)

_When Sauron was defeated by Gil-Galad and Elendil the Witch-King continued to exist with great authority; and having a realm of his own he contributed to the destruction of Arnor and killed the king of Gondor._

_Was he a wraith when all this was happening, or was he still human living the extended life granted to him by his ring?_

Well, the Ringwraiths first appear in 2251, according to The Tale of the Years. Sauron was overthrown by Elendil and Gil-Galad in 3441. I think 800 years arе enough to become a Nazgul. So I would say that he was a wraith living the extended life granted to him by The One Ring.


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## Alcuin (May 4, 2006)

_(This posts follows along the same line as Snaga’s; I hope it adds to the discussion.)
_


Kalmanluin said:


> How long was the Witch-King alive when he was still human?
> It seems to me that he was alive for all of the Third Age, and perhaps some of the Second Age as well.


 The Nine Rings were made during the Second Age between the years 1500 and 1590 by the Mírdain, the Noldorin smiths of Ost-en-Edhil led by Celebrimbor. Sauron in the guise of Annatar had a hand in their manufacture. Sauron completed the One Ring sometime after II 1600, and launched a war against the Elves in Eriador (both Celebrimbor in Eregion and Gil-galad in Lindon) when the Eldar resisted his attempt to trap them using the Rings of Power. He was able to seize the Nine and perhaps at least six of the Seven Rings. (The Dwarves maintained that the Ring possessed by the House of Durin (Thorin’s ancestors) was given to them by Celebrimbor and not by Sauron.) 

Gil-galad appealed to the Númenóreans for military assistance, and in 1700, Tar-Minastir landed a large force at two separate beachheads, one in Lindon to support Gil-galad, who had been forced back to the line of the Lune, and one at Vinyalondë (Lond Daer) at the mouth of the Gwathló/Greyflood River. The Tale of Years (Appendix B in the _Return of the King_) says that around the year 1800 of the Second Age, the “Númenóreans begin to establish dominions... The Shadow falls on Númenor.” I think it was around this time that Sauron passed three of the Nine Rings to Númenóreans in Middle-earth, one of whom eventually became the Witch-king of Angmar.

There is a dispute as to which generation of Númenóreans the future Witch-king belongs. I argue in an essay I wrote some time ago, “Origins of the Nazgûl and the Downfall of Númenor,” that he was probably a contemporary and close kinsman of Tar-Ciryatan, who was born in 1634. (Personally, I believe he was a younger brother of Tar-Ciryatan, and hence a royal prince: that would explain his arrogance, as well as his bearing and demeanor.) Other people who have studied this material believe he belongs to the previous generation, that of Tar-Minastir, who was born in 1474. Some have argued that he belongs to an even earlier generation, that of Tar-Telperiën, the second Ruling Queen; but in all probability, that would make him too old to have been in Middle-earth long after the War of the Elves and Sauron in 1700, and thus unavailable for Sauron to ensnare. On the other hand, were he a contemporary of Tar-Atanamir, who was born in 1800, he would have been too young to have been ensnared and become a Ringwraith by 2251. (He’d have been home with his mother. Númenóreans in the royal house were living to over 400 years in those days, so the “wraithification” would likely only have begun by 2250.) So that means he was likely born around the time of Tar-Minastir or Tar-Ciryatan. I’ve stated my preference, and you may debate the wisdom of it, or the lack thereof.

If my estimate of when he was born is true, then the Lord of the Nazgûl was about 4850 years old when Éowyn struck him down in the Pelennor Fields, older if you prefer Minastir’s generation. 



Kalmanluin said:


> When Sauron was defeated by Gil-Galad and Elendil the Witch-King continued to exist with great authority; and having a realm of his own he contributed to the destruction of Arnor and killed the king of Gondor.


 The Nazgûl went into hiding for several centuries after Sauron fell. There was a king of Arnor, Valandur, who was slain in 652 of the Third Age; with a little imagination, that might be attributed to the Nazgûl or their agents. We don’t know when Angmar came under the control of the Witch-king, but Argeleb I fell in battle against Rhudaur and Angmar in 1356, so he was probably there before then. You might recall that when Dol Guldur first arose about III 1050, the Wise initially believed the principal inhabitant was one of the Nazgûl, which in fact might have been true, at least at first.



Kalmanluin said:


> Was he a wraith when all this was happening, or was he still human living the extended life granted to him by his ring?


 He was certainly a wraith by II 2251, when the Tale of Years says that “the Nazgûl … first appear.” Hobbits were remarkable in their resistance to the Rings of Power, something recognized by Gandalf but not completely appreciated by the rest of those in-the-know, perhaps not even by Sauron, who got a good look at Gollum. Frodo even was stabbed by a Morgul-knife while wearing the One Ring, and Men (read: Dúnedain) so attacked normally succumbed far faster than he did in the cold and the wild while bearing the One Ring. I suspect that, as is stated in _Silmarillion_, “one by one, sooner or later, according to their native strength and to the good or evil of their wills in the beginning, they fell under the thraldom of the ring that they bore and under the domination of the One, which was Sauron’s.” Compare that to what Gandalf tells Frodo in “The Shadow of the Past” in _Fellowship of the Ring_: “‘A mortal ... who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, ... he fades: ... and walks in the twilight ... Sooner or later – later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last – sooner or later the dark power will devour him.’” Along with other comments Tolkien made about how quickly Men were corrupted to Sauron’s will, the implication is that the Nine Men fell rather quickly, lasting perhaps at most a generation longer than other mortals around them before the Ring of Power overcame them, though perhaps the greatest, who became the Lord of the Nazgûl, held out longest.

By the way, the Witch-king wasn’t a “ghost.” He had a physical body, but it had slipped into “the other side” as a result of using his Ring of Power. He wore clothes, his comrades could sniff and smell, he could speak, and – interestingly enough – his eyes still shown in or reflected firelight, as they did at the gate of Minas Tirith in his confrontation with Gandalf and later on Pelennor Field as he prepared to strike a mortal blow to Éowyn, just before Merry stabbed him.



Kalmanluin said:


> During the “Lord of the Rings”, do all the nazgul have their rings or does Sauron posses them?


 That’s a very good topic for a debate, Kalmanluin. You might also ask if the Lord of the Nazgûl was wearing his ring when Éowyn cut his head off, and if it might thus be lying somewhere on the field of battle. It is a matter of sometimes intense dispute in places like The Tolkien Forum.

During the Council of Elrond, Gandalf asserts that “...the Nine [Sauron] has gathered to himself; the Seven also, or else they are destroyed. The Three are hidden still...” I believe that it is generally accepted that Sauron had physical possession of the Nine Rings, at least most of the time. In _The Silmarillion_, in the chapter “Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age,” Tolkien writes that “the One and the Seven and the Nine are destroyed; and the Three have passed away,” indicating that all of the Nine Rings have been physically unmade; but I have seen rebuttals of that interpretation both ingenious and desperate. In Letter 246 to Mrs. Eileen Elgar in September 1963, Tolkien specifically stated that Sauron “held” the Nine Rings, which is almost always read to mean physical possession of them; but again, there are those that dispute this interpretation.


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## elrilgalia (May 21, 2006)

thats a great reply Alcuin! thanks! I really enjoyed reading it!

What I was wondering is, did the wraiths not have to wear their rings to continue to be wraiths... i,e not "die"

At what stage do they become official wraiths.. and are not dependant on the Rings to turn them ? I know this is impossible to answer to a "year" but... isnt it strange that they continued to survive...

I suppose, you could argue that they could only die, at the hand of a "no-man", or was that only pertaining to the Witch King ???


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## Aglarband (May 22, 2006)

I have come to the conclusion that any man can kill a Wraith, only that no MALE would kill the Witch-King.

I'm pretty sure the King became a wraith after or during his wars with the people of Arnor.


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## Alcuin (Jun 16, 2006)

elrilgalia said:


> What I was wondering is, did the wraiths not have to wear their rings to continue to be wraiths... i,e not "die"


 A matter of controversy: You can probably find threads on that question here at TTF and in almost any other Tolkien community, virtual or otherwise. My sense is that the consensus is that they did not have to wear their rings continuously by the time of the Third Age: they were completely enslaved to them, and they were already permanently trapped in the wraith world. Other TTF members can speak for themselves; but again, I think that is the general consensus. A similar question revolves around whether the Witch-king wore his ring to the Siege of Minas Tirith or not.



elrilgalia said:


> At what stage do they become official wraiths.. and are not dependant on the Rings to turn them ? I know this is impossible to answer to a "year" but... isnt it strange that they continued to survive...


 No one knows. If you meet one, ask him. However, the Nazgûl first appear about II (Second Age 2251), according the “Tale of Years”, Appendix B in _Return of the King_. How long it took for them to become Ringwraiths would probably be associated with what kind of people they were in their beginnings, how long they lived, and how often they used their rings. Those seem to be the things that Gandalf thought important when he spoke to Frodo in “Shadow of the Past”.

I took a stab at this question in an essay, “Origins of the Nazgûl and the Downfall of Númenor”. I think the Lord of the Nazgûl was almost certainly a Númenórean prince, was probably born around II 1650, and he was ensnared by Sauron about II 1700—II 1750. At that time, members of the House of Elros were living to 400 years or more. “The shadow falls on Númenor” about II 1800; this is almost certainly the result of the three Nazgûl who were Númenóreans, either by their direct presence in Númenor itself, or indirectly through their influence on others in Númenor. Tar-Ciryatan (b. II 1634) spoke against the Ban of the Valar; his son Tar-Atanamir (b. II 1800) refused to lay down his life, as had been the practice of the Númenóreans until then (cf. Aragorn’s passage in Rath Dínen). If the Númenóreans lived to the end of their natural lives and then became “thin [and] stretched,” as Bilbo put it; but then succumbed quickly, as Gandalf suggested Men succumbed to the power of Morgul; then “sooner or later — later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last — sooner or later the dark power will devour him.” So said Gandalf. That would give Sauron about 200 years during which the last Númenórean could rot into a Ringwraith and Sauron could gather together all his Nazgûl and prepare them for his purposes.

_ As a clear caveat_, other folks who have looked at this question have come to other conclusions, and some of them have arguments that are very solid. Some of them argue that the Lord of the Nazgûl was a Númenórean one generation ahead or one generation behind the generation of Tar-Ciryatan, and those seem to me very sensible arguments; the one I have presented is more or less a middle ground; however, the notion that one of the Númenórean kings was ensnared seems unsupportable to me.

If the scenario is mostly correct, the “wraithification” took place after the Man would otherwise have died, and it took less than two centuries to complete, probably considerably less. Bilbo had lived to the point that his natural life-span would have been drawing to a close when he gave up the Ring, and it had begun to really take hold of his mind. Even Bilbo noticed its physical effects; his neighbors thought it was unbelievable luck. Second Age Númenóreans probably thought much the same about their royal neighbor, who likely departed the community and never appeared among them again as the person they knew.

_(If that starts another long thread about who the Lord of the Nazgûl was and when he likely was born, all the better!)_

Snaga is on the mark about how it took place:


Snaga said:


> I think this is one of those cases where there may not be an exact point where you can say he changes from human to wraith. I think that the process of 'fading' and becoming a wraith is slow and gradual, and much depends on the willpower of the individual. However one thing I've always found curious is that the Nine get no mention in the story of the Last Alliance.


Nor are they mentioned when the Númenóreans under Ar-Pharazôn arrive in force in Umbar and took Sauron prisoner.



elrilgalia said:


> I suppose, you could argue that they could only die, at the hand of a "no-man", or was that only pertaining to the Witch King ???


Glorfindel’s prophecy was spoken to Prince Eärnur, commander of Gondor’s expeditionary force to Lindon and Arnor in III 1975 and later the last King of Gondor, concerning the Witch-king. It seems to have been specific to the Witch-king. In any case, the other eight Nazgûl died when the One Ring was destroyed in the Sammath Naur, either because their rings lost the power to maintain them when the One Ring was destroyed, or in the eruption of Orodruin.



Aglarband said:


> I'm pretty sure the King became a wraith after or during his wars with the people of Arnor.


 The Nazgûl had been around for about 1200 years when the Second Age ended. The Witch-king did not arrive in Angmar until about III 1300 (in the Third Age), according the “Tale of Years.” That would have meant he had been a Nazgûl about 2500 years when the wars with Angmar began and over 3100 years when Arnor collapsed in III 1975.


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## Valandil (Jun 18, 2006)

elrilgalia said:


> :
> :
> I suppose, you could argue that they could only die, at the hand of a "no-man", or was that only pertaining to the Witch King ???



It wasn't a "could" it was a "would" - an important distinction. I believe that Glorfindel got a glimpse (either a vision or just a bit of factual information) about how the Witch-King WOULD die. It COULD have been by a Man, in my opinion - if outfitted with one of those marvelous Dunedain blades like found in the Barrow of Tyrn Gorthad - but Glorfindel received a revelation that it would not be a Man.

The Witch-King was not immune to attacks of this sort from Men. However - when Glorfindel's words eventually circulated back around to him - I suppose he took it that way.


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