# What of the other Istari?



## JPMaximilian (Nov 17, 2004)

Unless I am mistaken, five Istari were sent to Middle Earth. Gandalf and Saruman make two, Radagast, who is barely mentioned, three. I recall Tolkien writing that the other Istari go into the East and do not come into these tales. What becomes of Radagast? Would not the other Istari, with their power, play a part in the War of the Ring?


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## Thorin (Nov 17, 2004)

Pretty much what you just said is all we know. Unfinished Tales gives a bit more information on all the Istari (all their Valinorian names) but as far as the blue wizards, they went into the East and out of the tales of the Ring. That is all that we know. 

As far as Radagast, because he directly linked himself to ME, I would venture that he never passed into the West, but remained in ME.

Only Gandalf and Saruman were directly involved in the battle for ME, and only Gandalf remained faithful out of all the 5 Istari since they came from the West.


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## Astaldo (Nov 17, 2004)

Thorin said:


> and only Gandalf remained faithful out of all the 5 Istari since they came from the West.


I don't think that Radagast stopped being faithful. He was just deceived by Saruman. This does not making him a bad guy.

Now about Alatar and Pallando. Maybe they were corrupted by Sauron and stayed to the South corrupting Haradrims etc.


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## JPMaximilian (Nov 17, 2004)

What do you mean by Radagast linked himself to middle earth? Also, do you think he had any powers similiar to those of Gandalf? I know he could talk to birds and had a special relationship with them. It seems to me that Gandalf would have done well to recruit Radagast to fight with them.


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## Astaldo (Nov 17, 2004)

Well certainaly he had some powers greater than simple humans. After all he was a Maia and belonged to the Order of the Istari.


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## Gothmog (Nov 17, 2004)

Astaldo said:


> I don't think that Radagast stopped being faithful. He was just deceived by Saruman. This does not making him a bad guy.


Radagast stopped being faithful because he did not take an active part in the battles against Sauron. He did not fall into evil but he did not do all in his power to combat it. This is the diference between him and Gandalf and also Saruman. Saruman fell into Evil while Gandalf did all that he was able to do in the fight against Sauron.

So while Radagast was not a "Bad Guy" as you say, he still stopped being faithful.


> Now about Alatar and Pallando. Maybe they were corrupted by Sauron and stayed to the South corrupting Haradrims etc.


Tolkien gave a couple of views on this. One was that they fell into evil and were the start of "magic cults", another is that they did remain faithful to the mission and ensured that the armies of Sauron were less than they would have been otherwise. We do not however, have any certain answer.


> It seems to me that Gandalf would have done well to recruit Radagast to fight with them


Gandalf did gain as much help from Radagast as he could. It was through Radagast that the Eagles were involved at all.


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## JPMaximilian (Nov 17, 2004)

Where is it mentioned that Radagast is responsible for the Eagles being involved? I ask in a genuine manner, I do not doubt you, but I also do not remember reading that.


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## Astaldo (Nov 17, 2004)

Gothmog said:


> Radagast stopped being faithful because he did not take an active part in the battles against Sauron. He did not fall into evil but he did not do all in his power to combat it. This is the diference between him and Gandalf and also Saruman. Saruman fell into Evil while Gandalf did all that he was able to do in the fight against Sauron.
> 
> So while Radagast was not a "Bad Guy" as you say, he still stopped being faithful.


I dind't think it like this. Thanks for this new clue.


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## Gothmog (Nov 17, 2004)

JPMaximilian said:


> Where is it mentioned that Radagast is responsible for the Eagles being involved? I ask in a genuine manner, I do not doubt you, but I also do not remember reading that.


From the Fellowship of the Ring: The Council of Elrond.


> ` "Stay a moment! " I said. "We shall need your help, and the help of all things that will give it. Send out messages to all the beasts and birds that are your friends. Tell them to bring news of anything that bears on this matter to Saruman and Gandalf. Let messages be sent to Orthanc."
> ` "I will do that," he said, and rode off as if the Nine were after him.


This was Gandalf talking to Radagast. Later in the chapter Gandalf says


> `That was the undoing of Saruman's plot. *For Radagast knew no reason why he should not do as I asked; and he rode away towards Mirkwood where he had many friends of old. And the Eagles of the Mountains went far and wide, and they saw many things: the gathering of wolves and the mustering of Orcs; and the Nine Riders going hither and thither in the lands; and they heard news of the escape of Gollum. And they sent a messenger to bring these tidings to me.*
> `So it was that when summer waned, there came a night of moon, and Gwaihir the Windlord, swiftest of the Great Eagles, came unlooked-for to Orthanc; and he found me standing on the pinnacle. Then I spoke to him and he bore me away, before Saruman was aware. I was far from Isengard, ere the wolves and orcs issued from the gate to pursue me.


So it was because of Radagast that Gwaihir the Windlord became involved then and later in the the battle of the Black Gate. 



> I dind't think it like this. Thanks for this new clue.


Glad to help


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## Elemmire (Nov 17, 2004)

Thorin said:


> as far as the blue wizards, they went into the East and out of the tales of the Ring. That is all that we know.


hehe... went east and started "magic cults", maybe they became Buddha and Lao Tzu...  

Just kidding.

As for Radagast...



Gothmog said:


> He did not fall into evil but he did not do all in his power to combat it.


Maybe, but there is more than one way to combat evil, and the threat was not just to humans and other peoples, but to trees, animals, and the earth itself. Gandalf focused on people, Radagast focused on herbs and animals... maybe this wasn't so faithless after all.

(But this is coming from an environmentalist)


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## Gothmog (Nov 17, 2004)

Elemmire said:


> Maybe, but there is more than one way to combat evil, and the threat was not just to humans and other peoples, but to trees, animals, and the earth itself. Gandalf focused on people, Radagast focused on herbs and animals... maybe this wasn't so faithless after all.
> 
> (But this is coming from an environmentalist)


It is true that there is indeed more than one way to combat evil. However, Radagast seems to have done little to protect the plants and animals and this is where he failed in his mission and "Stopped being faithful". He was still very far from being in any way Evil.


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## Elemmire (Nov 17, 2004)

Gothmog said:


> It is true that there is indeed more than one way to combat evil. However, Radagast seems to have done little to protect the plants and animals and this is where he failed in his mission and "Stopped being faithful". He was still very far from being in any way Evil.


Alright... I know you weren't implying he was evil...

This might show off my ignorance (what can I say? I'm a First Age specialist whose favourite characters all died thousands of years before LotR started - though none by your hands, my favourite balrog  - and had no obsessive desire to reread LotR a thousand times...  ), but where is it implied that Radagast stopped protecting plants and animals and whatnot? Your quotes from before would suggest otherwise, I think... Still, one way or the other, is it really said anywhere whether or not he remained faithful to his own chosen cause?


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## Gothmog (Nov 17, 2004)

> This might show off my ignorance


Not at all. It shows that you wish to increase your knowledge. This is the same as me 


> but where is it implied that Radagast stopped protecting plants and animals and whatnot? Your quotes from before would suggest otherwise, I think... Still, one way or the other, is it really said anywhere whether or not he remained faithful to his own chosen cause?


It is true that in the LotR there is little to say either way about Radagast, though the lack of noted help from a powerful Maia during the War of the Ring does indicate that he was not as active as he could have been. However, In the book Unfinished Tales the essay on the Istari contains the following from Tolkien.


> Indeed, of all the Istari, *one only remained faithful, and he was the last-comer*. For Radagast, the fourth, became enamoured of the many beasts and birds that dwelt in Middle-earth, and forsook Elves and Men, and spent his days among the wild creatures. Thus he got his name (which is in the tongue of Numenor of old, and signifies, it is said, "tender of beasts"). 4 And Curunír 'Lân, Saruman the White, fell from his high errand, and becoming proud and impatient and enamoured of power sought to have his own will by force, and to oust Sauron; but he was ensnared by that dark spirit, mightier than he.
> 
> *But the last-comer was named among the Elves Mithrandir, the Grey Pilgrim,* for he dwelt in no place, and gathered to himself neither wealth nor followers, but ever went to and fro in the Westlands from Gondor to Angmar, and from Lindon to Lórien, befriending all folk in times of need. Warm and eager was his spirit (and it was enhanced by the ring Narya), for he was the enemy of Sauron, opposing the fire that devours and wastes with the fire that kindles, and succours in wanhope and distress; but his joy, and his swift wrath, were veiled in garments grey as ash, so that only those that knew him well glimpsed the flame that was within.


So it would seem that Radagast failed in his mission because he did not work actively to the destruction of Sauron. He got sidetracted into the study of Plants and Animals. However, he did still give some help.


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## Elemmire (Nov 17, 2004)

Okay. Interesting... Yeah, I don't own a copy of the Unfinished Tales, and haven't actually looked at it for a while. Hm... I wonder what my mom would think if I came home in Thanksgiving with no money left but the Unfinished Tales and HoME in its entirity? Hm... better not try...  

As for Curunir... hm... it seems that I can't get beyond "Curu" without getting slightly angry... Curunir, Curufin... grrrr....  

Sorry. Really random rant.

Oooookay........ back to the Istari...


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## JPMaximilian (Nov 18, 2004)

Even if Radagast was "unfaithful" he was still good at heart I believe. I would like to think that he lived out a long life in Mirkwood in relative peace. Though he did not do all in his power to combat evil, he did resist the will of Sauron whilst the more powerful Saruman could not. I believe that is a tribute to the character of Radagast.


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## Elemmire (Nov 18, 2004)

I definitely agree. I was going to add something else, but my brain is functioning even less than before (it's 1:30 here)...

Radagast might not have been faithful to the initial cause of the Istari (and only the Valar...and maybe Cirdan...know what that was), but in the end, his own, less direct contributions proved equally important (especially with the eagles, as Gothmog already said a while ago...)

Allllllright. I'm going to bed.


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## Walter (Nov 18, 2004)

> > Now about Alatar and Pallando. Maybe they were corrupted by Sauron and stayed to the South corrupting Haradrims etc.
> 
> 
> Tolkien gave a couple of views on this. One was that they fell into evil and were the start of "magic cults", another is that they did remain faithful to the mission and ensured that the armies of Sauron were less than they would have been otherwise. We do not however, have any certain answer.


I agree, there is no certainty about the Ithryn Luin. Not even their names, Alatar and Pallando, can be taken for granted...


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## Elemmire (Nov 18, 2004)

Walter said:


> Not even their names, Alatar and Pallando, can be taken for granted...


anyone want to look at the names?
Here are the Quenya roots...

*



ala

Click to expand...

*


> - (2) negative prefix "not"





> *ala* (3) "after, beyond"
> *tar* (2) "beyond" _(FS)_




Allllright... so maybe "beyond beyond" isn't exactly likely... but it could be for emphasis ???


*



palla

Click to expand...

*


> "wide, expansive" _(PAL)_
> *palan*- "far, distant, wide, to a great extent"
> -*ando* masculine agentive suffix


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## Barliman Butterbur (Nov 18, 2004)

JPMaximilian said:


> Unless I am mistaken, five Istari were sent to Middle Earth. Gandalf and Saruman make two, Radagast, who is barely mentioned, three. I recall Tolkien writing that the other Istari go into the East and do not come into these tales. What becomes of Radagast? Would not the other Istari, with their power, play a part in the War of the Ring?



Here is what I have from _A Guide to Tolkien_ by David Day:

===============================

"Many of the Ainur were counted among the Maiar, but only a few are named in the histories that have come down to Men: Eönwë, Herald of Manwë; Ilmarë, Maid of Varda; Ossë, of the Waves; Uinen, of the Calm Seas; Melian, Queen of the Sindar; Arien, the Sun; Tilion, the Moon; Sauron, the Sorcerer; Gothmog, Lord of the Balrogs; and Olórin (Gandalf), Aiwendil (Radagast), Curunír (Saruman), Alatar and Pallando – the Wizards. In the histories of Middle-earth there also appear others who may have been Maiar: Thuringwethil, the Vampire; Ungoliant, the Spider; Draugluin the Werewolf; Goldberry, the River-daughter; and Iarwain Ben-adar (Tom Bombadil). ...

"Although five Istari are said to have come to Middle-earth, two play no part in the histories of the Westlands that have come to Men, for the others were said to have gone to the far east of Middle-earth. These two were the Ithryn Luin, the "Blue Wizards", and though it is known that they were called Alatar and Pallando in the Undying Lands and were chosen by the Vala Oromë the Horseman, nothing else is known of their lives and deeds. ...

"At the end of the first millennium of the Third Age of the Sun, it is told that five Maiar came to Middle-earth. They came not in grand forms but in the shape of ancient Men. Each was white-bearded and wore a traveller's cape, a beaked hat, and carried a long staff. These were the Istari, whom Men called the Wizards and much of their tale is told in the "Red Book of Westmarch". Yet only three of the five are named in the histories. Radagast the Brown was a master of birds and animals of the forest and lived near Mirkwood in Rhosgobel. Saruman the White was in the arising of the Istari Order counted the greatest, and for a time he was indeed skilful and wise, but he fell into evil ways, brought ruin down upon many and was himself completely destroyed in his efforts to make himself a great power. Gandalf the Grey was most famous of the Istari. In the beginning he was called Olórin and he served both Lórien the Master of Dreams and Nienna the Weeper; he was acknowledged the wisest of the Maiar race. The last two of the Istari were Alatar and Pallando, called the Blue Wizards and servants of Oromë, the Horseman. Of their fate and deeds upon Middle-earth little is told."

===============================

Barley


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## Walter (Nov 18, 2004)

David Day is usually not considered the most reliable of sources concerning Tolkien's writings...

In the Istari essay in _Unfinished Tales_ Christopher Tolkien mentions that in the remaining writings of his father he found a few more notes, but those were ''"...no more than very rapid jottings, often illegible..."'', one of them contained rough tables relating the names of the Istari to the names of the Valar who had chosen them: Olórin to Manwë and Varda, Curumo to Aulë, Aiwendil to Yavanna, Alatar to Oromë, and Pallando also to Oromë. 

According to these tables the names of the remaining two Wizards - whom we could presume to be the BlueWizards - would be Alatar and Pallando. 

But in HoMeXII Christopher Tolkien states that he had been able to make out two of the notes he had considered "illegible" at first. The first note reads as follows:



> No names are recorded for the two wizards. They were never seen or known in lands west of Mordor. The wizards did not come at the same time. Possibly Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast did, but more likely Saruman the chief (and already over mindful of this) came first and alone. Probably Gandalf and Radagast came together, though this has not yet been said. ... (what is most probable) ... Glorfindel also met Gandalf at the Havens. The other two are only known to (have) exist(ed) [sic] by Saruman, Gandalf and Radagast, and Saruman in his wrath was letting out a piece of private information
> 
> HoMeXII - The Five Wizards



The last sentence of the previous quotation is a reference to Saruman mentioning "Five Wizards" in The Two Towers. The other note reads as:



> The 'other two' came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age. Glorfindel was sent to aid Elrond and was (though not yet said) pre-eminent in the war of Eriador. But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinehtar and Romestamo. Darkness-slayer and East-helper. Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion ... and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause [?dissension and disarray] among the dark East ... They must have had a very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of the east ... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West.
> 
> ibid.



In a draft for a letter Tolkien wrote 1956:



> There is hardly any reference in _The Lord of the Rings_ to things that do not actually exist(*) on its own plane (of secondary or sub-creational reality): sc. have been written.
> 
> (*)The cats of Queen Beruthiel and the names and adventures of the other 2 wizards (5 minus Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast) are all that I recollect.
> 
> Letters #180



Christopher Tolkien, however, mentions in his comment to the Istari-essay, that ''even the story of Queen Berúthiel does exist, however, if only in a very "primitive" outline, in one part illegible''...

Thus, on speculative terms the names of the two "BlueWizards" could be either Alatar and Pallando, or Morinehtar and Rómestámo (or Róme(n)star). However, this cannot be considered a fact, we can not even be sure, that Tolkien eventually intendend give the names of the Ithryn Luin!


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## Barliman Butterbur (Nov 18, 2004)

Walter said:


> David Day is usually not considered the most reliable of sources concerning Tolkien's writings...



Not considered reliable by whom, and why not?

Barley


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## Walter (Nov 18, 2004)

Barliman Butterbur said:


> Not considered reliable by whom, and why not?
> 
> Barley


You mean aside from the "slip" about the names of the Blue Wizards? Well, don't trust my judgement, after all I've never read anyone of Day's books... 

But why not give it a try on your own? Do a careful cross-check of the part you have quoted with Tolkien's writings and see if Tolkien actually wrote _everything_ that Day states about the Istari. That should provide you with the first flaws in Day's commentary... 

I've seen other bits and pieces of Day quoted and I can't recall a single one that has not been flawed one way or the other.

Also you could check out the reader reviews on Amazon's and pay some attention to the less favourable reviews. See especially the comment of M. Martinez, one of the most diligent Tolkien readers around.

If that is not enough you could do some Googling or check out r.a.b.t. for references to David Day...


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## Barliman Butterbur (Nov 18, 2004)

*David Day: fast and loose with Tolkien*

Well, I took your advice: googled around with it and came up with these:

•Steuard Jensen: " ... it is important to be aware that a considerable number of other details in those vivid descriptions were invented by Day himself with little or no justification in the texts..."

•"The author's worst failing, however, is his seeming lack of familiarity with Tolkien's works; this despite three earlier books based on them." 

•"The format of this work makes it very much a coffee-table book; its content ensures that the coffee table is where it will stay."

•"I once though I was very clever, when I bought A Guide to Tolkien, by David Day. Now, I'm not so sure."

•"David Day's work is not a reliable guide to the intricately detailed world of J. R. R. Tolkien's Middle-earth novels. Day is entirely subjective, interposing his own interpretations and additions onto Tolkien's text. Tolkien's fans, who tend to have their own strongly-held opinions about such things, will most likely be annoyed, offended, or outraged."

Okay, I get the idea. How is it that this guy hasn't been taken to task?

Barley


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## Walter (Nov 18, 2004)

Indeed, Steuard Jensen is another very diligent Tolkien reader and his FAQ are "state of the art", IMHO...

I'm glad you got the idea, but still I would suggest that you try cross-checking certain passages of Day's elaborations with Tolkien's original writings and you should soon come to the conclusion that Day has a very "creative approach" to Tolkien and doesn't stay close to the facts...

But I'm afraid there is no "taking to task" of certain authors - other than the Tolkien fans refusing to buy their books - who, like Day, have such a "creative approach" and wrote their books "unblurred by the facts Tolkien provided"...

Regarding the Istari: Pretty much all additional information to what is said in LotR can be found in the essay about the Istari in _Unfinished Tales_ (plus a little more information provided in the Silmarillion chapter "Of the Rings of Power...", the short chapter "The Five Wizards" in "Last Writings" of HoMeXII, and in the Letters)


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## Ithrynluin (Nov 19, 2004)

JPMaximilian said:


> Even if Radagast was "unfaithful" he was still good at heart I believe. I would like to think that he lived out a long life in Mirkwood in relative peace. Though he did not do all in his power to combat evil, he did resist the will of Sauron whilst the more powerful Saruman could not. I believe that is a tribute to the character of Radagast.



But then again, Radagast never had any contact with Sauron or his (more powerful) minions, that we know of. The palantir in Saruman's possesion was a big factor in his being ensnared by Sauron, I believe.

Oh, and welcome to the forums, Max! 



Elemmire said:


> Radagast might not have been faithful to the initial cause of the Istari (and only the Valar...and maybe Cirdan...know what that was), but in the end, his own, less direct contributions proved equally important (especially with the eagles, as Gothmog already said a while ago...)



Certainly, Radagast's actions had a great impact on some crucial events, but I would not say his contributions proved equally important as Gandalf's. The grey pilgrim came to be the main mover of the forces of good in Middle-earth, and bore the brunt of the responsibility and pressure in organizing the resistance to Sauron. His labours were huge and highly admirable.


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## JPMaximilian (Nov 19, 2004)

Ithrynluin said:


> But then again, Radagast never had any contact with Sauron or his (more powerful) minions, that we know of. The palantir in Saruman's possesion was a big factor in his being ensnared by Sauron, I believe.



Very true. However, I would not assume that Radagast is guilty on the grounds that he never had the opportunity to be lured to evil in the way Saruman was.

I think the palantir lessens Saruman's culpability somewhat, however, he had many opportunities to repent. Saruman was more powerful than Radagast, he therefore has more responsibility.



Ithrynluin said:


> Oh, and welcome to the forums, Max!



Thank you, this Forum seems to be a great source of knowledge.


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## Arvedui (Nov 20, 2004)

JPMaximilian said:


> Thank you, this Forum seems to be a great source of knowledge.


And you are most welcome to make it greater.  

Welcome aboard!


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## MichaelMartinez (Nov 21, 2004)

Walter said:


> Indeed, Steuard Jensen is another very diligent Tolkien reader and his FAQ are "state of the art", IMHO...


That is an unwarranted amount of praise for Steuard's work, which leaves much to be desired in terms of its completeness and the fact that it remains biased in several areas. However, he is a much more reliable source of information than David Day.



> But I'm afraid there is no "taking to task" of certain authors - other than the Tolkien fans refusing to buy their books - who, like Day, have such a "creative approach" and wrote their books "unblurred by the facts Tolkien provided"...


Oh, Christopher Tolkien has reputedly called Day a "literary burglar". But since Day's work is largely original, there is not much the Tolkien Estate can do about it.


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## Arvedui (Nov 22, 2004)

Well his works are surely 'original.'  
I was stupid enough to buy a David Day-book once, and I still wonder if we have read the same works of Tolkien.... Sometimes he is so off-base that even I can see that he is clearly wrong.


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## Walter (Nov 22, 2004)

MichaelMartinez said:


> That is an unwarranted amount of praise for Steuard's work, which leaves much to be desired in terms of its completeness and the fact that it remains biased in several areas. However, he is a much more reliable source of information than David Day.


Well, I had praised the diligence of a certain M. Martinez one post earlier and I felt that Steuard's efforts deserve some praise too.

Regarding completeness: I have yet to meet an author who's work does not leave room for improvement, even the works of the most renowned Tolkien scholars around (e.g. Shippey, Flieger, Drout, Anderson, Hammond, Scull - to name but a few) are IMO far from being "complete".

Regarding bias: It is only all too human to see ones own interpretation of certain facts as the only "correct" or "valid" interpretation, even when there are more - often equally justified - ways to interpret those facts.


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## Aiglos (Feb 27, 2005)

Hi guys. This is my first post (ever!) so hope this isn't a banal question...?Somewhere in the Unfinished or Lost tales, there's a reference to how the Istari were ranked by the Valar. I can't find it. Can someone post it here. Think it gives the reasons for Saruman being "in charge" of the others...?

I know it had a good line from Vanya in it.


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## ASLAN THE GREAT (Feb 27, 2005)

here this may help you 



*Who were the Istari?
From: the gary haven web site *

The origin of the Wizards is never really made clear within the _Lord of the Rings_, and there has been some debate about just to what race they belong. However, there is a chapter dealing with them in the book _Unfinished Tales_, and a great deal of Tolkien's intent is presented within the chapter "The Istari," which most people are unaware of.

A note by Tolkien (_Unfinished Tales_, page 394), dated by his son as probably coming from 1972, right before Tolkien died, basically states right out their origins and purpose.

We must assume that they [the Istari] were all Maiar, that is persons of the 'angelic' order, though not necessarily of the same rank. The Maiar were 'spirits', but capable of self-incarnation, and could take 'humane' (especially Elvish) forms... Now these Maiar were sent by the Valar at a crucial moment in the history of Middle Earth to enhance the resistance of the Elves of the West, waning in power, and the Men of the West, greatly outnumbered by those of the East and South. It may be seen that they were free each to do what they could in this mission; that they were not commanded or supposed to act together... and that each had different powers and... were chosen by the Valar with this in mind.

When Eru created the world, he sent fourteen of the greater members of his spiritual choir (the Ainur) to guide and protect the world and its peoples. Many lesser spirits went as well, to serve as helpers and servants. The greater spirits became known as the Valar, while the lesser were termed the Maiar. The Wizards gained their power through being supernatural beings who had predated the creation of the world. Another note in _Unfinished Tales_ (page 395), about Gandalf specifically, says: 

It was believed by many of the 'Faithful' that 'Gandalf' was the last appearance of Manwë himself... But I think it was not so... To the overthrow of Morgoth he sent his herald Eonwë. To the defeat of Sauron would he not then send some lesser (but mighty) spirit of the angelic people, one coeval and equal, doubtless, with Sauron in their beginnings, but not more? Olórin was his name. But of Olórin we shall never know more than he revealed in Gandalf.

The text after this is an etymological analysis of what "Olórin" means, and the significance of the name, and what it says about Gandalf's character. Throughout this section, though, which was one of the last sections to be composed, Gandalf (and I would infer by extension all the Istari) are Maiar. There is also an isolated mention of the name "Olórin" in the Silmarillion, where he is referred to as being a Maiar who frequently visited (the Valinorean) Lórien.

One last interesting piece of evidence comes from a brief narrative of a council of the Ainur (printed on page 393 of _Unfinished Tales_), which is incomplete and had illegible pieces, but which clearly demonstrates the messengers to be of that class of being, and the also sheds some light on the purpose given the Wizards when they were sent to Middle Earth.

It was resolved to send out three emissaries to Middle-earth. 'Who would go? For they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and weariness coming from the flesh.' But two only came forward: Curumo, who was chosen by Aulë, and Alatar, who was sent by Oromë. Then Manwë asked, where was Olórin? And Olórin... asked what Manwë would have of him. Manwë replied that he wished Olórin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth... But Olórin replied that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwë said that was all the more reason why he should go...

The narrative goes on to tell how Curumo (Saruman) takes Aiwendil (Radagast) at the pleading of Yavanna, and that Pallando is brought by Alatar as a friend. With Olórin added to the mix, the total of five Istari mentioned in the appendix to the Lord of the Rings is reached. The meeting in question is intriguing because it demonstrates a possible origin for Saruman's contempt of Radagast. Also made clear is the reason why Gandalf refrained from using his power to persuade people like Denethor to listen to him: it was forbidden (which made Saruman's failure all the greater).

Defining something in Middle Earth is difficult, because technically nothing besides the Lord of the Rings is final. However, since Tolkien's writing in this section, being as late in his life as it was, probably represented the last opinion he developed of the issue of Wizardly origins, it seems fair to announce: the Wizards were Maiar.


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## Aiglos (Mar 2, 2005)

Thanks Aslan.

That's the passage I was thinking of.

It also mentions something about Gandalf going "not as the third" and also about how it was telling that Aule chose Saruman and that Suaron was also originally of Aule's people. Aule's got a lot to answer for eh?


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## Alcuin (Mar 9, 2005)

Perhaps Radagast’s error is not a sin of commission, but a sin of omission. Gandalf calls him “the honest Radagast” at the Council of Elrond. But the task of the Istari was to unite Elves and Men (and presumably Dwarves) to contest the power of Sauron without matching his power with theirs, and without dominating Elves or Men by force or fear. (Paraphrase of the essay “The Istari” in _Unfinished Tales_.) In becoming enamored of the creatures of Middle-Earth, Radagast failed to fulfill his primary task. It isn’t that he was fallen in the sense that Saruman fell, but rather that he substituted the task he was assigned with one that he preferred; and incidentally, one safer than his assigned work, easier, and more enjoyable.

Is anyone interested in the relationship between Sauron and Saruman? They both were in their origins Maiar of Aulë. How similar are they? Does Sauron recognize Saruman in the palantir for what and perhaps even who he is? What clues does Tolkien provide, and how are these related to Saruman’s fall? (If this belongs in another thread, please redirect me.) 

And finally, has anyone noticed that when the One Ring is destroyed, Sauron takes the form of a great dark cloud crowned with lightning, which is blown away by a wind from the West; while Saruman’s spirit after his murder by Wormtongue manifests itself as a grey mist like a smoke in the form of a pale shrouded figure, also blown away by a wind from the West. Is there some literary significance here: writings that might have inspired Tolkien from his medieval studies, some other mythological or traditional influence that might have been developed into this recurrent element?


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## Nazgul Officer (Mar 10, 2005)

i think the other two just returned to the undying lands. but wouldnt it have been fab to have seen the other wizards join in the fight hehe!


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