# dragons



## morgoth145 (May 7, 2011)

where there any dragons alive during the lord of the rings and were they slain before or after Sauron was?
if there still were dragons alive, are there any names or descriptions of them?
any answers are welcome.


----------



## Eledhwen (May 8, 2011)

I believe that Smaug was the last of the dragons that were known of in Middle-earth. He is connected to The Lord of the Rings tale more closely in Unfinished Tales, where Frodo re-tells Gandalf's explanation of why he was so keen to help the dwarves to deal with Smaug. 

If other dragons existed, they did not make themselves known to the characters in the story. I believe that Sauron would certainly have used dragons, if he had any remaining, or knew of any. The flying steeds of the Nazgul are not dragonkind; they were not particularly difficult to slay, whereas much of the hide of a dragon was impervious to weaponry.

I have noticed, from The Hobbit movie information I've seen, that Smaug is being described as "One of the last of the dragons ...". Offhand, I don't know if they invented this phrase or if they have a genuine Tolkien quote to that effect.

Anyone?


----------



## camlost (May 8, 2011)

Eledhwen, in any case it would seem that Smaug was the only dragon that concerned Gandalf. Perhaps if there were others they were immature, i.e. young _not_ vulgar, to aid Sauron. However, I seem to recall the Hobbit strongly implying that Smaug was the last of the dragons, but I do not have a passage to support that.


----------



## morgoth145 (May 8, 2011)

i read somewhere that smaug woukd be the last one of the great dragons, therefore i was wondering if there were other dragons but just less powerfull.
i dont know if its correct but that thing i've read is just in my head most of the time i think about it.


----------



## Prince of Cats (May 8, 2011)

morgoth145 said:


> i read somewhere that smaug woukd be the last one of the great dragons, therefore i was wondering if there were other dragons but just less powerfull.
> i dont know if its correct but that thing i've read is just in my head most of the time i think about it.


 
I recall it the same way, morgoth145 :*up . Unfortunately I can't produce a quote right now


----------



## Erestor Arcamen (May 8, 2011)

I thought I read somewhere (sorry no sources lol) there were cold drakes in the North? Here's what the Encyclopedia of Arda says:



> "Now the least mighty [dragons] - yet they were very great beside the Men of those days - are cold as in the nature of snakes and serpents, and of them a many having wings go with the uttermost noise and speed..."
> _Turambar and the Foalókë_
> in _The History of Middle-earth_ vol. II _The Book of Lost Tales II_
> 
> ...



http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/c/colddrakes.html


----------



## Peeping-Tom (May 9, 2011)

There were dragons around... they just hid themselves very well! :*p

I quote from a letter Tolkien wrote :

Letter #144 To Naomi Mitchison, 25 April 1954 :
_*Dragons. They had not stopped; since they were active in far later times, close to our own. Have I said anything to suggest the final ending of dragons? If so it should be altered. The only passage I can think of is Vol. I p. 70 : 'there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough'. But that implies, I think, that there are still dragons, if not of full primeval stature.

*_


----------



## Parsifal (May 10, 2011)

Look at Map in the Hobbit: 

There are "Great Worms" in the north. A Worm/Wyrm is a (Wingless?) Dragon I believe.
Also, Tolkien has left the possibility of LOTR taking place in our world's past (and not just some other Universe), so some dragons would have to survive to be battled by Medieval knights etc.


----------



## Zenith (May 16, 2011)

When you refer to Smaug being the last of the great dragons it probably means last of the Uruloki, the Winged Fire Breathing dragons. However, clearly there are still fire breathing dragons left at the time of the War of the Ring, although much less powerful than Smaug. Gandalf states in the Lord of the Rings, "it has been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough;" So this gives rise to the belief that Gandalf knew of other dragons, even fire breathing dragons. But nothing that he needed to give special concern to. Smaug was on the other great, and Gandalf gave him his direct attention second only to the Necromancer (Sauron for the unlearned). Gandalf said in Unfinished Tales about Smaug and Sauron, "They will help one another". In this passage he also refers to Smaug as a "great dragon" He also says in Appendices, "Think of what might have been. Dragon-fire and savage swords in Eriador. Night in Rivendell." Gandalf clearly feared Sauron's usage of Smaug's strength, but with that threat ended, it appeared there were no more great dragons of much consequence or great numbers to bother him too much. And certainly there were cold drakes in the north.. Scatha was apparently a very powerful cold drake, but he was killed by Fram (How the hell does a man of Rohan kill an insanely powerful cold drake?). It was the cold drakes that had driven the dwarves out of the Grey Mountains. So, in short, yes there were fire breathing dragons and cold drakes at the time of the War of the Ring.


----------



## morgoth145 (May 17, 2011)

Zenith said:


> When you refer to Smaug being the last of the great dragons it probably means last of the Uruloki, the Winged Fire Breathing dragons. However, clearly there are still fire breathing dragons left at the time of the War of the Ring, although much less powerful than Smaug. Gandalf states in the Lord of the Rings, "it has been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough;" So this gives rise to the belief that Gandalf knew of other dragons, even fire breathing dragons. But nothing that he needed to give special concern to. Smaug was on the other great, and Gandalf gave him his direct attention second only to the Necromancer (Sauron for the unlearned). Gandalf said in Unfinished Tales about Smaug and Sauron, "They will help one another". In this passage he also refers to Smaug as a "great dragon" He also says in Appendices, "Think of what might have been. Dragon-fire and savage swords in Eriador. Night in Rivendell." Gandalf clearly feared Sauron's usage of Smaug's strength, but with that threat ended, it appeared there were no more great dragons of much consequence or great numbers to bother him too much. And certainly there were cold drakes in the north.. Scatha was apparently a very powerful cold drake, but he was killed by Fram (How the hell does a man of Rohan kill an insanely powerful cold drake?). It was the cold drakes that had driven the dwarves out of the Grey Mountains. So, in short, yes there were fire breathing dragons and cold drakes at the time of the War of the Ring.


 is there anything written about the dragons being slayed under the reign of king Elessar?
or where they left alone to live in the grey mountains?


----------



## Zenith (May 17, 2011)

> is there anything written about the dragons being slayed under the reign of king Elessar?
> or where they left alone to live in the grey mountains?



Well there is no mention of the dragons in the Grey Mountains after Aragorn became king. There were also dragons in the Northern Waste beyond the Ered Mithrin (Grey Mountains), that is where the cold drakes and Smaug came from. However we hear no more after the end of the third age. Parsifal also made mention that Middle-earth could be viewed as transforming into our world, which would leave the lesser dragons as quests for knights and so forth. I think that is a sound theory. We can only assume the dragons dwindled in number and power.


----------



## Turin's Friend (Jun 14, 2011)

The Dragons are still here in the form of such creatures as the Loch ness monster and Champ the great worm of Lake Champlain, Perhaps.


----------



## Prince of Cats (Jun 15, 2011)

Turin's Friend said:


> The Dragons are still here in the form of such creatures as the Loch ness monster and Champ the great worm of Lake Champlain, Perhaps.


 
In _so_ many ways :*) :*up


----------



## Turin's Friend (Jun 15, 2011)

when you Google Dracontology you get a bunch of sites coining this word for the study of lake animals. Looking in a 1959 copy of the Vermont Life magazine I saw a small article on the serpent of Lake Champlain it really struck me how much it looks like a depiction of one of Tolkien's worms. Yes indeed in so many ways strange things still go on.


----------



## Prince of Cats (Jun 15, 2011)

I was actually referring to both humanity's fascination with cryptids *D) and the preservation of magical mind states by tales passed through the ages

I hadn't heard of the Lake Champlain wyrm before. I found this depiction from history upon the lake; what would a dragon think of witnessing humans harness some of its own fire?  Of course they decide to use it in the same capacity dragons had: to kill humans


----------



## Turin's Friend (Jun 16, 2011)

Yes I believe I caught on to that, Which is why I mentioned myths and legends that persist to this day. Even though science may say other wise I think these ideas heighten the enjoyment of created worlds of authors like Tolkien. Local legends of "Champ" The Lake Champlain monster have been here well before white man came. Native americans labeled a place Snake Bay because of the numerous sightings in the area. I'm guessing there must be similar legends of such creatures in the Great Lakes region as well. I could not find a copy of the image I was referring to that I could post, but here is one of the more famous supposed pictures of Champ caught on film. I beleive this one is still being debated as to it's authenticity. Where would we be with out imagination, it would be an incredibly boring world. :*D





View attachment untitled.bmp


----------



## Prince of Cats (Jun 20, 2011)

:*) Have you read Tolkien's Mythopoeia?


> The heart of Man is not compound of lies,
> but draws some wisdom from the only Wise,
> and still recalls him. Though now long estranged,
> Man is not wholly lost nor wholly changed.
> ...





> I will not treat your dusty path and flat,
> denoting this and that by this and that,
> your world immutable wherein no part
> the little maker has with maker's art.
> ...


----------



## Turin's Friend (Jun 21, 2011)

No, but I will soon. I am currently reading Carpenter's Tolkien biography, I just finished the part where he says that Tolkien wrote the poem after the long debate with Lewis and I believe Dyson about christianity. That the poem was written in response to this conversation where Lewis said that Myth was lies breathed through silver. I am not sure if I have a copy of the poem among the Tolkien books I have but if I don't I shall either procure it or find it free on the internet somewhere. Thanks for the tip.


----------



## Prince of Cats (Jun 21, 2011)

It's a rather short poem, just a few pages' worth of stanzas. It's in my copy of "Tree and Leaf" but you can find it all over the net


----------



## Welserwies (Jun 21, 2011)

See the subject of dragons is here in this forum I will ask my question here. I wasn't going to ask but now I have to because Smaug was brought up. I was actually sad when he died. Not that it was sad for a dragon to die but he died so easily. 

I know he was missing some of his dragon scale and thats how the arrow penetrated but if I remember correctly it was only one arrow, all be it a special one (how I am not sure but I remember it was) that killed Smaug.

How does such a great and terrible beast get killed with one arrow? I found it rather anticlimactic.

( I hope no one thinks I am complaining harshly about the stories. despite my critiques I think tolkien's works are marvelous.... just for the record. I guess I am just a chronic complainer.)


----------



## Turin's Friend (Jun 27, 2011)

Yes the arrow used by Bard to bring down Smaug was special. "Arrow" he said " Black arrow I have saved you to the last. I had you from my father and he from old. If ever you came from the forges of the true king under the mountain go now and speed well." Perhaps some explanantion can be taken from observations made by John Rateliff in his book The History of The Hobbit. He points out "the rather curious motif of an arrow that is always recovered until one final shot when it fufills it's destiny. " and "Bard's arrows final act is to exceed all hope by slaying his people's greatest foe, with a sense that it perishes in the act of fufilling it's destiny." From The Hobbit "The great bow twanged. The black arrow sped straight for the hollow by the left breast where his fore leg was flung wide. In it shot and vanished barb shaft and feather." Rateliff in The History of the Hobbit points out "the traditional motif of a Dragon's weak spot (specifically the soft underbelly of the Sirgurd/Fafnir legend already seen in Glorund.)"Glorund is the wingless Dragon in The Children of Hurin. The protagonist of the story Turin must conceal himself in a deep ravine to wait for his moment when the Dragon throws his bulk across the chasm in the act of crossing. Turin is able to thrust his sword upwards and pierce his soft belly and deal him a deadly wound. I think perhaps you must also think that a Dragon even though a mighty creature is still a living breathing animal, and any wound that penetrates a vital organ perhaps even the heart could indeed kill it with a single blow.


----------



## Welserwies (Jun 28, 2011)

Turin's Friend said:


> Yes the arrow used by Bard to bring down Smaug was special. "Arrow" he said " Black arrow I have saved you to the last. I had you from my father and he from old. If ever you came from the forges of the true king under the mountain go now and speed well." Perhaps some explanantion can be taken from observations made by John Rateliff in his book The History of The Hobbit. He points out "the rather curious motif of an arrow that is always recovered until one final shot when it fufills it's destiny. " and "Bard's arrows final act is to exceed all hope by slaying his people's greatest foe, with a sense that it perishes in the act of fufilling it's destiny." From The Hobbit "The great bow twanged. The black arrow sped straight for the hollow by the left breast where his fore leg was flung wide. In it shot and vanished barb shaft and feather." Rateliff in The History of the Hobbit points out "the traditional motif of a Dragon's weak spot (specifically the soft underbelly of the Sirgurd/Fafnir legend already seen in Glorund.)"Glorund is the wingless Dragon in The Children of Hurin. The protagonist of the story Turin must conceal himself in a deep ravine to wait for his moment when the Dragon throws his bulk across the chasm in the act of crossing. Turin is able to thrust his sword upwards and pierce his soft belly and deal him a deadly wound. I think perhaps you must also think that a Dragon even though a mighty creature is still a living breathing animal, and any wound that penetrates a vital organ perhaps even the heart could indeed kill it with a single blow.




Well put. Poor smaug. I don't usually root for the villain but the dragon didn't seem so much evil to me as he did an animal going about his purpose. Like a lion eating sheep; a dragon hoarding gold and eating villagers. In the end he had to go.


----------



## Bucky (Jun 28, 2011)

You ever see that photo of 'Champ' that women allegedly took in the 1970's?

it sure looks real to me.

Not as much evidence as Bigfoot, but, humm........ ;*)


----------



## Turin's Friend (Jun 29, 2011)

View attachment Champ.bmp
I think this is the one you are talking about it was taken by Sandra Mansi in 1977 at the northern end of the lake. I hope the picture shows in my response as I am not real confident posting things yet. Even though I grew up in the Lake Champlain Islands I never did see Champ (the lake monster's nickname). We did see a fish swim under our boat once that was as big as the boat most likely a Sturgeon. I really like the idea that these lake monsters could be compared to one of Tolkien's cold drakes, so as long as we have imagination Dragons are among us!


----------



## Welserwies (Jun 29, 2011)

Turin's Friend said:


> View attachment 5101
> I think this is the one you are talking about it was taken by Sandra Mansi in 1977 at the northern end of the lake. I hope the picture shows in my response as I am not real confident posting things yet. Even though I grew up in the Lake Champlain Islands I never did see Champ (the lake monster's nickname). We did see a fish swim under our boat once that was as big as the boat most likely a Sturgeon. I really like the idea that these lake monsters could be compared to one of Tolkien's cold drakes, so as long as we have imagination Dragons are among us!



There is nothing to give perspective in that picture unless there is part of the picture not seen here. I think I remember that picture being used on "in search of" when I was little. It seems familiar but doesn't seem like anything out of the ordinary to me. I saw a sea lion strike a pose just like that at sea world once. Yes I know there are no lake sea lions.


----------



## Turin's Friend (Jul 3, 2011)

Actually sea lions were sighted on lake Champlain as recently as the early 1800's weird huh?


----------



## CirdanLinweilin (Nov 29, 2016)

Komodo Dragons anyone?

There is so much bacteria in their saliva that one bite could end a person or animal. The bacteria could be a last remnant of the ability to breathe fire.


----------

