# How did Smaug (or any other firedrake) produce their flames?



## Olorgando (Nov 9, 2022)

This thought crossed my mind as I was reading the thread by @BalrogRingDestroyer :









How exactly did Smaug stay fed all of those years?


I mean, he's a dragon, though I don't know if he was super huge, but he even admitted that he was young when he first came and is now older, so he should need a lot of food. Problem is, he seems to have decimated the countrside such that little was around, save some unsavory crows plus a thrush...




www.thetolkienforum.com





It's all very well for reptiles - to which class dragons must belong - to subsist in hibernation for a long time; some big snakes and crocs can go for months (perhaps even a year or more) without feeding after really stuffing themselves, *without* hibernation. Even warm-blooded hibernators can co for months without feeding. And I'd guess that the bigger the critter, the longer the period could be (losing heat goes to the power of two, the surface area; maintaining heat goes to the power of three, volume / mass).

But *spewing flames* as Smaug, Glaurung, Ancalagon & Co. (just in Middle-earth) did involves extremely higher orders of magnitude of expending calories (or kilojoules).

I'll just quote Gandalf from Chapter III "The Ring Goes South" of Book 2 in "Fellowship", when the Fellowship got stuck in the snowstorm on Caradhras. Legolas had just said "If Gandalf would go before us with a bright flame, he might melt a path for you." To which Gandalf answered "If Elves could fly over the mountains, they might fetch the Sun to save us. But I must have something to work on. I cannot burn snow." This is after Gandalf had lighted a fire from wood the Fellowship had brought along with his staff - after neither Gimli nor Legolas had been able to do anything to light it, the wood having become sodden because of the snowfall.

The point is: fire needs fuel. Where are the firedrakes, including Smaug, getting their fuel from???
We've all probably seen too many news items in the last few years of horrific forest fires. Including the use of fire-fighting helicopters and planes, with the latter more to the point the flying boats. They can refill their water tanks by skimming over a lake or whatever, the movement filling up their tanks quickly. So where are the gasoline lakes that Smaug and Co. skimmed over, lower jaw dipped in, to slurp up their fuel?

It has something of the illogical nature of rockets in science fiction: where are the bloody fuel tanks on them??? A Saturn-5 (the moon rocket) was perhaps 90 percent fuel tank. So how *do* the firedrakes fuel their fire?


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## Ent (Nov 9, 2022)

So far sir @Olorgando my search has turned up nothing but "the old fire'.

‘there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough’. Tolkien, J.R.R.. The Letters Of J.r.r. Tolkien (p. 177). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition. 

Nothing in SIL seems to define it... nothing in JRRT's letters speaks to it. Just this one comment. 

So it seems if we could identify what is meant by "Morgoth bred them..." and "the old fire".... and how that translates into an ongoing ability to breathe out whatever it is/was, we may be able to contrive an answer.

I'll look more later but am coming up otherwise blank so far.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Nov 9, 2022)

Terry Pratchett goes into this in his Discworld novels, at least in regard to swamp dragons, which convert digested food into combustible gas far better than erm, other animals, through rearranging their internal guts and organs -- sometimes with devastating results. Here's a quote:

A streak of green fire blasted out of the back of the shed, passed a foot over the heads of the mob, and burned a charred rosette in the woodwork over the door.

Then came a voice that was a honeyed purr of sheer deadly menance.

_"This is Lord Mountjoy Quickfang Winterforth IV, the hottest dragon in the city. It could burn your head clean off."_

Captain Vimes limped forward from the shadows. A small and extremely frightened golden dragon was clamped firmly under one arm. His other hand held it by the tail. The rioters watched it, hypnotized.

"Now I know what you're thinking," Vimes went on, softly. "You're wondering, after all this excitement, has it got enough flame left? And, y'know, I ain't so sure myself..."

He leaned forward, sighting between the dragon's ears, and his voice buzzed like a knife blade: "What you've got to ask yourself is: Am I feeling lucky?"


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## Ent (Nov 9, 2022)

That's some good writing..!

Interesting. So if a dragon lay on its pile of treasure for a whole bunch of years but still had enough 'combustible fuel' left to burn the mountain aplenty and scorch the town to ruins, it must indeed have eaten a great passel of people, pets and prowling animals to have enough 'juice' left to blast away.


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## Lósendir Elsurion (Nov 9, 2022)

Dragons do not need to produce a large amount of heat themselves.
After having a hearty dwarven meal they digest their food. During digestion the fat is metabolized to short-chain hydrocarbons. These are stored in the dragon's fire-gland. 
If the dragon now wants to breathe fire, it inhales deeply, contracting it's fire-gland which releases the hydrocarbons. Next the dragon exhales and the air and hydrocarbons mix. Now the mix is ignited by an exothermal reaction: an organic peroxide is secreted which reacts with phosphorus (from an ATP derivative) creating a small spark. The dragon can now breathe fire as long as it exhales.
Dragons also have micro-hair follicles containing asbestos to protect their mouth and nostrils from burning.


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## Eljorahir (Nov 9, 2022)

I thought methane at first, but the trouble is to have any substantial quantity the dragon would have to have a means to store compressed or liquified methane. Sounds biologically difficult.

I'm going with: dragons have a secondary digestive system which ferments food into alcohol. The alcohol is stored in a large bladder until needed. Then, all that's needed is a spark from the special flint-bone-sparky thingy at the back of every dragon's mouth and a strong exhale.

fer·men·ta·tion
[ˌfərmənˈtāSH(ə)n]

NOUN

the chemical breakdown of a substance by bacteria, yeasts, or other microorganisms, typically involving effervescence and the giving off of heat.
the process of fermentation involved in the making of beer, wine, and liquor, in which sugars are converted to *ethyl alcohol.*


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## Ent (Nov 9, 2022)

Interesting again @Lósendir Elsurion
Where do we find the source of this information? I know JRRT did some lecturing on Dragons in University from earlier lore he'd encountered, but I don't have access to any of those lectures, and he based his 'dragons' much on that. (Though he thought Beowulf's dragon unconvincing.)

Is there a reference I can access to review this about dragons? I've never talked to or even met one to confirm how it's done.


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## Lósendir Elsurion (Nov 9, 2022)

The Ent said:


> Interesting again @Lósendir Elsurion
> Where do we find the source of this information? I know JRRT did some lecturing on Dragons in University from earlier lore he'd encountered, but I don't have access to any of those lectures, and he based his 'dragons' much on that. (Though he thought Beowulf's dragon unconvincing.)
> 
> Is there a reference I can access to review this about dragons? I've never talked to or even met one to confirm how it's done.



I am afraid I cannot provide you with a source for this since my explanation is based on my own scientific knowledge and imagination research. I didn't know about JRRT's Dragon lectures; that sounds interesting!


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## Ent (Nov 9, 2022)

Lósendir Elsurion said:


> that sounds interesting!


Indeed. I'd SO love to get hold of them... but I fear those types of his notes are not among the hosts of Middle-earth related lore that have been preserved.
He alludes to them in a couple of his "letters" to other people... the only way I'm aware the lectures were done.


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## Lósendir Elsurion (Nov 9, 2022)

The Ent said:


> Indeed. I'd SO love to get hold of them... but I fear those types of his notes are not among the hosts of Middle-earth related lore that have been preserved.
> He alludes to them in a couple of his "letters" to other people... the only way I'm aware the lectures were done.



Apparently in 2018 the lecture has been published in the Hobbit facsimile gift edition.


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## Ent (Nov 9, 2022)

Interesting and good to know. I'll check it out.


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## Lósendir Elsurion (Nov 10, 2022)

Do you have access to this edition? I do not and I'd be very interested in it's content!


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## Ent (Nov 10, 2022)

Lósendir Elsurion said:


> Do you have access to this edition?


Not yet.

I've found where I can get that edition. It's a Harper Collins hardback slipcase edition, 2018, apparently also with a CD recording of JRRT reading some things, and an "added booklet" with some of his writings on "related subjects" (There's also a paperback edition though I'm not sure the 'extras are with it.)

I can't confirm the 'added booklet" contains his stuff on dragons... 
Also would want to get a "New" rather than "Used" because often the "used" sets have 'lost' their added things. 

Anyway looks like I can grab a new one for around $50.00 - $55.00 US. I think I'll try to confirm what's in the little booklet first. $50.00+ is a hefty price for a book that otherwise 'adds nothing' to my library... but if his writing on dragons is included it might be worth it. 

(Some people are trying to sell their paperbook version for as much as $200.00.  
Scammers are everywhere.)


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## Olorgando (Nov 10, 2022)

Flame-throwers "premiered" in WW I, if I read John Garth's 2003 "Tolkien and the Great War" correctly (The Byzantine Empire may have used them over 1,000 years earlier ...). The tanks (carried on the back) needed to be portable, obviously - and had a limited use of about two minutes. Smaug in TH definitely spouted flame for more than two minutes. And the WW I flame-throwers used liquid fuel, as compressed gas would probably not have really been portable - if *producible* at all at this time.

No, Smaug's sustained attack on Lake-town just does not seem plausible to me - and never mind his flaming inside of Erebor in PJ's film, leading to the melting of a huge golden statue (and his sinking into the molten gold, IIRC). Firedrakes somehow do not make sense ... 🤔


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## Ent (Nov 10, 2022)

"Logic, logic, logic. Logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end."
Spock, "_Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country_"

By its very definition, the genre of Fantasy demands suspension of logic and the natural order of things. 
If we require things to "make sense" to be acceptable or enjoyable, the human race itself is in the worst of dangers..!


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## Elthir (Nov 10, 2022)

How does a dragon embryo breath inside an egg?

_Nobody knows!_

Tiny little holes in the shell? Come on people, be realistic. The goo would drain out. That's just science!


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## grendel (Nov 12, 2022)

As @The Ent points out, I think we can allow a certain element of fantasy to these stories. If we can have a (non-existent) metal called _mithril_ which claims marvelous and unusual properties, why can't we also have some yet-undiscovered combustible fluid, naturally produced by dragons, that allowed them to breathe copious amounts of fire?

For that matter, how did the Balrogs produce fire? Yes, they are Maiar spirits, but as Gandalf said, you must have something to burn. Fire doesn't appear out of nowhere, nor does it feed on nothing.


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## Elthir (Nov 13, 2022)

Dragons brothe fire [possible ab ovo] _well after the Third Age_, in the tales of the Primary World, so naturally, some did earlier. Again, that's just science. Did you ask, for example, Sir Thomas Malory
the same question when Sir Lancelot arrove at a tomb and loft up its lid to see: "a fyendely dragon spyttynge fyre oute of hys mowthe."

I bet you didn't!

*c*ause he died before you were born


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## Olorgando (Nov 13, 2022)

Elthir said:


> How does a dragon embryo breath inside an egg?
> _Nobody knows!_
> Tiny little holes in the shell? Come on people, be realistic. The goo would drain out. That's just science!


Wrong.
Eggshells of all type, hard and soft, have what might be similar to what Gore-Tex claims for its fabrics: the ability to allow gases to pass, but not liquids. 🤨



grendel said:


> For that matter, how did the Balrogs produce fire? Yes, they are Maiar spirits, but as Gandalf said, you must have something to burn. Fire doesn't appear out of nowhere, nor does it feed on nothing.


Bad hygiene? 🤢



Elthir said:


> Did you ask, for example, Sir Thomas Malory ...
> I bet you didn't!
> *c*ause he died before you were born


Your tiny-fonted last line answers your own question ... 😁

A different matter is *would* I have asked Malory, or the authors of the Volsunga Saga, or Beowulf, or ...

You can bet your backside I would have! 😈


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## Elthir (Nov 13, 2022)

Anyone can make assertions.

I have seen and held unbroken yeggs, Sir. No goo!


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## Ent (Nov 13, 2022)

Elthir said:


> Did you ask, for example, Sir Thomas Malory
> the same question


Dear Sir Cat in a Coat: Being what you are, I must ask...
Given you're e-Speaking to the Human Animal, and your question assumes a certain logic and consistency exists with them...
is your question logical and consistent?
Ent thinks the answer is self-evident. 😁


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## Aldarion (Nov 13, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> It has something of the illogical nature of rockets in science fiction: where are the bloody fuel tanks on them??? A Saturn-5 (the moon rocket) was perhaps 90 percent fuel tank. So how *do* the firedrakes fuel their fire?


Magic? Balrogs also produce fire.


Olorgando said:


> Flame-throwers "premiered" in WW I, if I read John Garth's 2003 "Tolkien and the Great War" correctly (The Byzantine Empire may have used them over 1,000 years earlier ...).


Not could. _Did_.






Though I doubt that dragons have naphtha* in their bellies...

* How Byzantines called petroleum or crude oil.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Nov 13, 2022)

Aldarion said:


> Though I doubt that dragons have naphtha* in their bellies...


I would also highly doubt such...it seems only too unlikely.


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## Olorgando (Nov 14, 2022)

Aldarion said:


> Magic? Balrogs also produce fire.
> 
> Not could. _Did_.
> 
> ...


Ah, that would be the "Greek fire" used by - among others? - the Byzantine navy, as per memories rattling around the dimmer recesses of my "data storage"? Ships would have much larger tank capacities than any land-based transportation of the time. And defensive use from city / fortress walls is also likely.

But liquid fuels (ethanol from bacterial fermentation, as mentioned here, had come to my mind) basically only shifts the problem's focus to "tank capacity", at least for flying dragons. Glaurung could have been a huge blob due to having a large capacity of this sort. But JRRT's own paintings, specifically of Smaug, show him as being quite "worm-like", not to say long and skinny. Where is *his* fuel tank? 🤔


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## Eljorahir (Nov 14, 2022)

From the “Book of Mislaid Scribblings”:

_‘After the fall of Smaug and the other fateful events of that time, the Dwarves of The Mountain set about the burdensome task of routing out the filth and defilement left behind by the Old Wyrm. After the treasures were ordered and counted, the living quarters were scrubbed and made clean, a chamber deep in the mountain was soon discovered: a dark lake of foul smelling fuel. What processes of fell fermentation or dark alchemy did the dragon draw upon to generate such a lode? No tale tells. But, it was clear that the secret source of Smaug’s refuelings had been found.’_


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Nov 14, 2022)

That's terrible! 😂🤣


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Nov 14, 2022)

Ai, indeed 'tis a place I would ne'er venture into, o'er my fallen _hröa_ and _fëa_...


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## Olorgando (Nov 15, 2022)

Eljorahir said:


> From the “Book of Mislaid Scribblings”:
> 
> _‘After the fall of Smaug and the other fateful events of that time, the Dwarves of The Mountain set about the burdensome task of routing out the filth and defilement left behind by the Old Wyrm. After the treasures were ordered and counted, the living quarters were scrubbed and made clean, a chamber deep in the mountain was soon discovered: a dark lake of foul smelling fuel. What processes of fell fermentation or dark alchemy did the dragon draw upon to generate such a lode? No tale tells. But, it was clear that the secret source of Smaug’s refuelings had been found.’_


Resurrected admittedly dim memories of a couple of fraternities from my US college days back in the early mid-1970's ... 🥴


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## Eljorahir (Nov 16, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> Resurrected admittedly dim memories of a couple of fraternities from my US college days back in the early mid-1970's ... 🥴


What about my post sparked these memories? Did the frat houses also contain foul-smelling chambers deep within?


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## Elthir (Nov 16, 2022)

Eljorahir said:


> What about my post sparked these memories?



Pun intended?


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## Eljorahir (Nov 16, 2022)

Elthir said:


> Pun intended?


Nope. Just a punny coincidence. 



Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> That's terrible! 😂🤣


You think that's terrible? There's an addendum to The Scribblings:

_And for years uncounted ever after, the dwarf-wives of Erebor (when their husbands fell behind in their personal hygiene regimen) were wont to render the admonishment: 'For Aule's sake! You're beginning to smell of ripe old Smaug fuel. Take a bath or sleep outside, if the birds of the mountainside will tolerate your stench!'_


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## Olorgando (Nov 16, 2022)

Eljorahir said:


> What about my post sparked these memories? Did the frat houses also contain foul-smelling chambers deep within?


Have you ever been in a beer pong cellar when it gets close to Saturday midnight? 😬🥶🤢🥴
I can *imagine* next day AM is not much fun, either, when the spilled stuff has dried (and the nature of the game inevitably leads to much spillage), but I was mostly still sleeping then, as must have been the vast majority of my opponents. 😴😴😴


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## Amon Rudh (Wednesday at 3:31 PM)

This article suggest an apparently plausible theory. There seem to be lots online.


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## Ent (Wednesday at 3:39 PM)

I'm so thankful the Great Halls of Speculation are being rebuilt.. 😁


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## Deimos (Wednesday at 5:30 PM)

_"How did Smaug (or any other firedrake) produce its flames?"_

Methane (could be from either end...) 😄


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