# Turgon's Messengers



## Ancalagon (Apr 25, 2002)

> . At the bidding of Turgon Círdan built seven swift ships, and they sailed out into the West; but no tidings of them came ever back to Balar, save of one, and the last. The mariners of that ship toiled long in the sea, and returning at last in despair they foundered in a great storm within sight of the coasts of Middle-earth; but one of them was saved by Ulmo from the wrath of Ossë, and the waves bore him up, and cast him ashore in Nevrast. His name was Voronwë; and he was one of those that Turgon sent forth as messengers from Gondolin.



What exactly had Turgon in mind when he sent these seven ships out into the west? Was he seeking aid from the Valar, or from those who had remained after the exile? What hope did he feel lay in the west?

If this was the case and he was seeking help, why then did he refuse to listen to the words of Ulmo, spoken through Tuor; 


> 'Love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea.'



Surely there was no point in sending these ships out, if he had already become proud and confident of the secrecy and might of Gondolin? Did Turgon condemn his people to death by his decision, even though Ulmo had offered him reprieve, sanctuary and support from the Valar?


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## Gothmog (Apr 25, 2002)

I do not think that Turgon thought that Gondolin could long stand hidden. When Tuor came to the Hidden City Turgon knew that the doom spoken before was not far away.

I think that he hoped to have the Valar to come to the aid of the Noldor before his city fell. He did not want to give up the city that he had caused to be built in memory of Elven Tirion. Proud he had become and he loved Gondolin so he wanted the best of both, the help of the Valar and the City of his Heart.

To try to gain this impossible aim he sent his messengers into the West to persuade the Valar to come before the time was right for the war of the forces of the West against the Dark Power of the North. And for this reason the messengers of Turgon were either turned back and drowned or caught on the Enchanted Isles.


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## Ancalagon (Apr 25, 2002)

Ok, so when Ulmo finally spoke through Tuor, why did he not take his opportunity to seek tha Valars assistance as Ulmo had offered. It wasn't that long after he sent 7 ships of his people to their deaths for the very same thing!


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## Gothmog (Apr 25, 2002)

He knew that Ulmo could not of himself give the aid that Turgon needed and wanted, it was only Manwe who could command the host of the West, and lesser help would accomlish little or nothing. It was Manwe who was the Highest of the Valar and without Manwe's say, Ulmo could do little more than he had already done. Therefore, Turgon sent his messengers to attempt to plead directly with Manwe and the rest of the Valar in the Ring of Doom to have the Noldor given forgivness and succor in their time of need.


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## Turgon (Apr 25, 2002)

As for Turgon condemning his people to death - Regardless of Ulmo's warning, what else could Turgon have done - Surely it would have seemed to him that Gondolin was the safest place to be. 


> 'Love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea.'


This is telling Turgon what he had more or less guessed already, surely that's why he sent the Ships in the first place. The main reason for Tuor's coming to Gondolin was to sire Earendil, I'm sure the message was secondary to that.
Turgon was doomed what ever he did, he was under the Curse of the Noldor, it proved fatal to all the Leader of the Rebellion against the Valar - Galadriel was the exception, and I think that's why Tolkien himself took pains in his later writings to distance Glad, from the Rebellion. Gil-galad was born in Beleriand, so he escaped the Doom, the only other survivor was Maglor... Maybe he was let off because of all the laughs the 'Noldolante' gave the Valar?


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## Ancalagon (Apr 25, 2002)

But at this stage, Turgon knew he was exiled, under the Doom of Manados and not certain that Manwe would even consider assisting him, or any Noldor for that matter. So why then should he seek the help of the Valar when they had blatantly stated that his people were exiled and the doors to Aman were closed to them?



> 'Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains. On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar Leith from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also.


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## Gothmog (Apr 25, 2002)

> 'Love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea.'




It may be that the words of Ulmo gave to Turgon a false hope that the Valar would accept an embassy to plead the cause of the Noldor. He would not have thought at that time of a Half-Elf being the only one that would be allowed to find the way. Therefore the words can be interpreted as being an invitation to talk, Turgon made the mistake of thinking that Any Elf could take up that invite.


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## Turgon (Apr 25, 2002)

> 'Love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea.'


Remember this was said after Turgon had sent the Ships on their errand...

Perhaps after the Battle of Unnumbered Tears 'Tears unnumbered', which must have seemed to the few survivors, the end of all the hopes of the Noldor - Turgon believed the Doom to be complete. Or believed at least that they had suffered enough, and that the Valar were now ready to forgive them... Maybe he thought it was a venture worth trying either way... Nothing ventured, nothing gained... After the Nirnaeth the war against Morgoth was effectively over anyway... It must have seemed to him the only other chance he had, as High King to save his people.


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## Maedhros (Apr 25, 2002)

In the end, my friend Turgon refused the help of the same Valar who help him create the city of Gondolin. Isn't it ironic. Kind of the same thing that happened to Orodreth.


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## Gothmog (Apr 25, 2002)

Turgon,
No this was said before Turgon went to Gondolin.


> Then Turgon prepared to depart from Nevrast and leave his halls in Vinyamar beside the sea; and there Ulmo came to him once again, and spoke with him. And he said: 'Now thou shalt go at last of Gondolin, Turgon; and I will maintain my power in the Vale of Sirion, and in all the waters therein, so hat none shall mark thy going, nor shall any find there the hidden entrance against thy will. Longest of all the realms of the Eldalië shall Gondolin stand against Melkor. But love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West and cometh from the Sea.'


 From the Silmarillion: of the Noldor in Beleriand.


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## Turgon (Apr 25, 2002)

My mistake Gothmog (obviously!)
You'd think I'd remember hearing that wouldn't you? 
Well there's the answer to the original question - Turgon sent the Ship's because he didn't have a clue...


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## Ancalagon (Apr 25, 2002)

It was also said by Ulmo to Turgon in Beleriand. Yet, the questions are still unanswered. Why should Ulmo tell Turgon that hope lies in the west, if Turgon was still under the Doom of Mandos and bound by the curse of the Noldor. Surely this is a complete contradiction when we know that Mandos has told them all that Valinor would be walled against them.

Also, why then if Ulmo could encourage Turgon to relocate, would he ignore the offer, especailly after sending ships out to the west in the first place. It reeks of poor leadership.


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## Gothmog (Apr 25, 2002)

I cannot argue with you about the poor leadership as I agree totaly. But Ulmo was trying to help the Noldor as much as he could and seems to be the only one who was. In my opinion Turgon finaly came to wisdom Too little Too Late. He should have accepted Ulmo's help completely not a bit at a time.


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## Turgon (Apr 25, 2002)

> 'Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains. On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar Leith from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also.


Actually no, the point I made earlier stills stands. After the Battle of Unnumbered Tears and the end of the the hopes of the Noldor in Beleriand - Turgon could well have believed the curse to be played out. 'Tears unnumbered ye shall shed', Tears unnumbered they did shed... and the whole point of Tuor coming to Gondolin, was for Earendil to be born... Huor saw that before he died... Morgoth saw it while still in Valinor...


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## Ancalagon (Apr 25, 2002)

It's a fair enough point Turgon, my Gondolinear friend, however the Oath and the curse were on all the Noldor, basically until they repented or they fell.


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## Turgon (Apr 25, 2002)

Mmm... I'm getting confused as to what we're actually debating here, so forgive me if this post has no bearing on what's actually being debated... but I feel that Ulmo's plan for Gondolin was totally sound, surely he had some inkling on what would be the outcome of Tuor's arrival in Gondolin would be (that's to say, the birth of Earendil) as all that went before seems too perfect...
Ulmo appears to Turgon, and tells him to build a hidden city, warns him against trusting too much in that city - Ulmo here seems to at least have an idea of Gondolin's final fate - Ulmo later tells Turgon to leave Armour for Tuor in Nevrast - Later Voronwe, the only survivor of the last ship sent on the Errand to the west, is cast up on shore just in time to meet Tuor (who otherwise would be unable to find Gondolin) - it all seems to well planned for it not to be destined... if Turgon had not sent the ships, who would then have guided Tuor to Gondolin... so fate, or providence, or something must have been at work.
As for Turgon's leadership, you can look at two ways... and please don't think I'm being too 'Gondolinear' here...
I)Turgon's Pride in and refusal to leave his city - which after all was the last remaining Noldorin Kingdom in Beleriand - could well have been the curse coming home to roost with him - this is the most likely alternative - (i.e. the treachery of Maeglin was the instrument of Turgon's doom - as foretold by Ulmo.)
II)Turgon didn't have any choice but to remain in the city, where else could he go? How could he flee the length of Beleriand (then almost totally under the sway of Morgoth) with the entire population of Gondolin, without attracting M's attention? So either in Gondolin or with Gil-galad on Tol Balar (or wherever he was), the outcome to him must have seemed the same... if he had to make a last stand somewhere, at home would be the place to do it...
And hey, Ancalagon, don't you dare put this in 'Wonderful Nonsense'


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## Gothmog (Apr 26, 2002)

Ulmo's plan is not the issue, the question is what were Turgon's reasons for sending the messengers. Did Turgon believe that his messengers would be allowed to get to Aman in spite of the Doom of the Noldor?


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## Turgon (Apr 26, 2002)

Well it would be logical to assume so, else why would he send them in the first place...? Either he sent them because after the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, he felt The Doom had been fulfilled... 'Tears Unnumbered ye shall shed.' Or he sent them as seeing nobody was left in Beleriand to continue the fight against Morgoth (including himself) he felt it was the only hope left for the Noldor. Ulmo said to him that the true hope comes lies in the west and comes from the sea, a logical step from their would be to send some messengers to get some help, or it was something Ulmo had put into his mind so that Voronwe could be washed up in time to meet Tuor. As for why he didn't then heed the Word Ulmo sent to him via Tuor, then I presume it would be one of these two answers:

I)Turgon's Pride in and refusal to leave his city - which after all was the last remaining Noldorin Kingdom in Beleriand - could well have been the curse coming home to roost with him - this is the most likely alternative - (i.e. the treachery of Maeglin was the instrument of Turgon's doom - as foretold by Ulmo.) 

II)Turgon didn't have any choice but to remain in the city, where else could he go? How could he flee the length of Beleriand (then almost totally under the sway of Morgoth) with the entire population of Gondolin, without attracting M's attention? So either in Gondolin or with Gil-galad on Tol Balar (or wherever he was), the outcome to him must have seemed the same... if he had to make a last stand somewhere, at home would be the place to do it...


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## Ancalagon (Oct 15, 2002)

> "But the Great Sea is terrible, Tuor son of Huor; and it hates the Noldor, for it works the Doom of the Valar. Worse things it holds than to sink into the abyss and so perish: loathing, and loneliness, and madness; terror of wind and tumult, and silence and shadows where all hope is lost and all living shapes pass away. And many shores evil and strange it washes, and many islands of danger and fear infest it. I will not darken your heart son of Middle-earth, with the tale of my labour seven years in the Great Sea from the North even into the South, but never to the West. For that is shut against us.



In truth it was a shame against the Noldor that the Valar did shut the West so tightly against them. Osse played his part in enforcing the Doom of Mandos to the letter, yet in truth the Valar still had the blood of those who sailed seeking aid and forgiveness on their hands. Already tears unnumbered had been shed, but it seemed that the death of every Son and those who went with them must see its course through, before the west was truly opened to them. Seems cold and calculated and extremely unwavering in its forcefulness.


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