# Glamdring and Sting



## Greenwood (Apr 26, 2005)

The following question has occurred to me several times when the topic of Glamdring glowing in the presence of orcs has come up in the movie sections. First, some quick background. We all know that Sting and Glamdring (and Orcrist) are elven blades from the Elder Days and glow in the presence of orcs. On a number of occasions in LOTR Sting is described as glowing blue when orcs are about. (Sometimes, Sting is merely described as glowing without the color mentioned.) 

My question is: Is Glamdring ever described as glowing *blue* when orcs are near? Certainly Glamdring also glows in the presence of orcs, that is described a number of times; but, does it glow blue? Or is the blue color specific to Sting? I have done a quick look through the LOTR (and The Hobbit) and I find mentions of Glamdring glowing, but the color blue does not seem to be mentioned. I may well have missed or forgotten an occasion. If you know of a time when Glamdring glows blue please give the specific passage from the books.


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## Arthur_Vandelay (Apr 26, 2005)

As for Glamdring glowing _blue_, I haven't come across any references in The _LOTR_--yet. The following is from _The Hobbit_, "Over Hill and Under Hill":



> Then Gandalf lit up his wand. Of course it was Gandalf,; but just then they were too busy to ask how he got there. He took out his sword again, and again it flashed in the dark by itself. It burned with a rage that made it gleam if goblins were about; now it was bright as blue flame for delight in the killing of the great lord of the cave.



"Bright as blue flame," however, may only be a reference to the _brightness_ of the sword, not its colour. Mind you, when Frodo is upon the flet in Lothlorien while Orcs are prowling about below, Sting is described as flashing and glittering "like a blue flame."

Hopefully someone will find a passage in the _Lord of the Rings_ that clears this up--but I suspect that you have stumbled upon a Tolkien myth. Perhaps the idea that Glamdring glows blue when orcs are near is a misconception.


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## Alcuin (Apr 27, 2005)

The Hobbit, “Riddles in the Dark”:


> Now he [Bilbo] drew it out. It shone pale and dim before his eyes. “So this is an elvish blade, too,” he thought; “and goblins are not very near, and yet not very far.”


“Flies and Spiders”:


> …Out came his little sword. He slashed the threads to pieces and went off singing.
> 
> The spiders saw the sword, though I don’t suppose they knew what it was…


Sting was visible when Bilbo used the Ring.

FoTR, “The Bridge of Khazad-dûm” (Chamber of Mazarbul)


> There was a ring and clatter as the Company drew their swords. Glamdring shown with w pale light, and Sting glinted at the edges.





> The Balrog reached the bridge. Gandalf stood in the middle of the span, leaning on the staff in his left hand, but in his other hand Glamdring gleamed cold and white
> 
> …
> 
> ...


“The Breaking of the Fellowship”:


> ‘Let us see what Sting may show,’ answered Aragorn.
> 
> Frodo drew the elf-blade from its sheath. To his dismay the edges gleamed dimly in the night. …


TT, “Shelob’s Lair”:


> …Then Frodo’s heart flamed within him, and without thinking what he did, whether it was folly or despair or courage, he took the Phial in his left hand, and with his right hand drew his sword. Sting flashed out, and the sharp elven-blade sparkled in the silver light, but at its edges a blue flame flicked.


“The Choices of Master Samwise”:


> He [Sam] drew his sword again and beat on the stone with the hilt, but it only gave out a dull sound. The sword, however, blazed so brightly now that he could dimly see in its light. … then he ran madly, sword blazing in hand, round a bend and up a winding tunnel.


RotK, “The Tower of Cirith Ungol”:


> There was no answer. Sam strode forward. Sting glittered blue in his hand. …





> …For what [the orc on the stairs] saw was not a small frightened hobbit trying to hold a steady sword: it saw a great silent shape, cloaked in a grey shadow, looming against the wavering light behind; in one hand it held a sword, the very light of which was a bitter pain, …





> …He [Sam] sprang out to meet Shagrat with a shout. He was no longer holding the Ring, but it was there, a hidden power, a cowering menace to the slaves of Mordor; and in his hand was Sting, and its light smote the eyes of the orc like the glitter of cruel stars in the terrible elf-countries, the dream of which was a cold fear to all his kind. …


 
BTW, nothing about Glamdring is mentioned at the end of “The Siege of Gondor” when the gates of Minas Tirith are broken and Gandalf faces the Witch-King. (The Witch-King’s sword is mentioned, though.)


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## Arthur_Vandelay (Apr 27, 2005)

We might also look for passages that suggest that _all_ Elven blades glow with a blue light in the presence of orcs.

The entry for "Glamdring" in Robert Foster's _Complete Guide to Middle Earth_ states that "Glamdring shone with a blue light in the presence of orcs." The entry for "Sting" in J E A Tyler's _Complete Tolkien Companion_ states: "Like all Elf-blades, Sting gleamed with a cold blue light if any servants of the Enemy were nigh at hand . . . ." 

Both sources, of course, may be mistaken. But it seems to me that the pertinent question here is whether there is a reference in either _The Lord of the Rings_, _The Hobbit_, _The Silmarillion_, or elsewhere in Tolkien's works to it being a property of all Elven blades that they glow blue when orcs are nearby. From there the question of Glamdring's glowing blue is a matter of simple deduction.


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## Manwe (Apr 27, 2005)

But from the quotes Alcuin found it seemed that Glamdring shone white.


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## Arthur_Vandelay (Apr 27, 2005)

Manwe said:


> But from the quotes Alcuin found it seemed that Glamdring shone white.



Yes, that's true. There does however appear to be an assumption that it also glowed blue--an assumption made at least by two authors of Tolkien encyclopedias (one directly, the other indirectly), as my previous post indicates. Greenwood is trying to discover if this assumption is actually supported in the text of _The Lord of the Rings_, _The Hobbit_, _The Silmarillion_, etc. Do these texts, in other words, actually state if:
*(a) Glamdring glows blue in the vicinity of orcs, and/or
(b) All elven-blades possess this property.
*
Perhaps Glamdring _glows_ blue when orcs are about, and _shines_ white in the heat of battle, "invested" with Gandalf's power.


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## Alcuin (Apr 27, 2005)

Glamdring and its mate Orcrist were made for Turgon, king of Gondolin. Sting might have been made as a companion dagger to the swords; sometimes swordsmiths made companion daggers during the Middle Ages to match better swords, as Glamdring and Orcrist clearly were. I don’t think the sword was “invested” with power from Gandalf.


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## Greenwood (Apr 27, 2005)

Thank you all. Lots of good posts. I was aware of a number of the quotes listed, but not all of them by any means. As I said in my starting post, I knew Glamdring was described as "glowing/shining" in the presence of orcs, but when I started checking the actual passages in LOTR where I remembered the subject coming up, I could not find any that specifically stated Glamdring glowed blue. (Though there is certainly no question about Sting.) Thank you A_V for the passage from The Hobbit -- I had missed that one in a quick review. I knew the TTF members would come up with more instances than I could think of at first.


A_V, 

You are absolutely right, that I do not place much store in secondary sources such as Tolkien "encyclopedias","guides", etc. I have seen too many cases where secondary sources merely copy each other. I am indeed looking for a definitive statement, by JRRT himself, that Glamdring (or all elvish blades) glow *blue* in the presence of orcs. That they glow (and that Sting glows blue) is beyond dispute, in my opinion. The passage from The Hobbit would seem to support Glamdring also glowing blue, though it is interesting (curious?) that JRRT never seems (based on what has been found so far) to have mentioned Glamdring as glowing blue in LOTR, though he seems to have had it glowing white.

I am going to keep looking.


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## Arthur_Vandelay (Apr 27, 2005)

Alcuin said:


> Glamdring and its mate Orcrist were made for Turgon, king of Gondolin. Sting might have been made as a companion dagger to the swords; sometimes swordsmiths made companion daggers during the Middle Ages to match better swords, as Glamdring and Orcrist clearly were. I don’t think the sword was “invested” with power from Gandalf.



I put "invested" in scare quotes because I was uncomfortable with the term. Does Gandalf "invest" or "focus" his power through any of the items he possesses (his staff, for example)? I don't know if it is entirely impossible that Glamdring shone white in the battle with the Balrog because it was wielded by Gandalf. Then again--we are accustomed to thinking of blades as being "silver"--perhaps Glamdring actually _was_ white (not just in the midst of battle).

Can anyone clear this one up? Has it been answered in another thread?


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## Arthur_Vandelay (Apr 27, 2005)

Greenwood said:


> You are absolutely right, that I do not place much store in secondary sources such as Tolkien "encyclopedias","guides", etc.



Nor should you. But if the notions--supported in the Tolkien encyclopedias I mentioned in one form or another--that either "Glamdring glows blue in the presence of orcs," or that "All elven blades glow blue in the presence of orcs" turn out to be fallacious (in the sense that they are not supported by anything Tolkien wrote), I wonder where these notions come from?


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## Valandil (Apr 27, 2005)

With all those nice quotes together, I would tend to favor a 'pale-blue' or a white with a blueish cast to it - for Glamdring.

I would agree that all Elvish blades did not necessarily glow blue, or even glow period - though they might have all done either.

It's interesting now to recall what Bilbo's thought was on the matter (Alcuin's first quote). I don't suppose he would have been an authority on Elvish weapons though - so either he was linking in his mind what he saw of Glamdring before with what he now saw of Sting (as yet un-named), or he was recounting what he knew of legends about Elves.


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## Flame of Udûn (Apr 28, 2005)

Arthur_Vandelay said:


> Nor should you. But if the notions--supported in the Tolkien encyclopedias I mentioned in one form or another--that either "Glamdring glows blue in the presence of orcs," or that "All elven blades glow blue in the presence of orcs" turn out to be fallacious (in the sense that they are not supported by anything Tolkien wrote), I wonder where these notions come from?





> No gleam came from the blades of Sting or of Glamdring; and that was some comfort, for being the work of Elvish smiths in the Elder Days these swords shone with a cold light, if any Orcs were near at hand.
> _II 4_


Glamdring and Sting shone because they were the work of Elvish smiths of the Elder Days, which suggests that other swords of similar lineage may possess that quality too.


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## Manwe (Apr 28, 2005)

I think in the instances when Glamdring shone white A_V was spot on when saying Gandalf used it as a magical weapon like his staff. It seems that the sword would already have a capacity to be used afor magic as it had its quality of shining blue. I think though that the original question has been answered by the Flame of Udun's quote, where did you find it?


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## Greenwood (Apr 28, 2005)

Manwe said:


> I think though that the original question has been answered by the Flame of Udun's quote, where did you find it?


Flame of Udun's quote merely supports Glamdring and Sting both glowing when near orcs, but that was never in doubt and was not the original question. The question is whether Glamdring glows *blue*. So far the only quote that tends to support that is the one A_V gave from The Hobbit. However, as A_V pointed out, the phrase "bright as blue flame" could be read as only referring to brightness rather than color. So far all the quotes from LOTR merely have Glamdring glowing/shining, with no mention of a blue color. When a color is mentioned, it is white.


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## Manwe (Apr 29, 2005)

Oh sorry I must have read that wrong!  . Judging by his quote though is does seem that all elven blades gleam or glow


> No gleam came from the blades of Sting or of Glamdring; and that was some comfort,* for being the work of Elvish smiths in the Elder Days these swords shone with a cold light, if any Orcs were near at hand.*


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## Manwe (Apr 29, 2005)

Oh sorry I must have read that wrong!  . Judging by his quote though is does seem that all elven blades gleam or glow


> No gleam came from the blades of Sting or of Glamdring; and that was some comfort,* for being the work of Elvish smiths in the Elder Days these swords shone with a cold light, if any Orcs were near at hand.*


This seems to me to be indicating that elven blades from the Eldar Days always had the capacity to gleam when Orcs were near, maybe some glow differently depending on who made them?


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## Nightfall (Apr 29, 2005)

Doesn't it say in Hobbit about Battle Of Five Armies something like "the spears of elves were glowing from the anger of those that held them" and that arrows glowed like live fire?


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## Arthur_Vandelay (May 1, 2005)

It seems that people are still missing the point here. We _know_ that all elven blades glow in the presence of orcs: what we'd like to know is whether they all glow blue in the presence of orcs. 

Specifically:



Greenwood said:


> I am indeed looking for a definitive statement, by JRRT himself, that Glamdring (or all elvish blades) glow *blue* in the presence of orcs.


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## Greenwood (May 1, 2005)

To be blue, or not to be blue. That is the question.


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## Arthur_Vandelay (May 2, 2005)

Greenwood said:


> To be blue, or not to be blue. That is the question.



The more I think about it, Greenwood, the more I'm leaning towards the idea that the passage I cited from _The Hobbit_ indicates that Glamdring (at least) actually does glow blue. Blue flame is an odd metaphor for brightness--surely yellow or red flame would have been more appropriate--_unless_ something in particular was being asserted about the colour of the glowing sword.


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## Barliman Butterbur (May 2, 2005)

Arthur_Vandelay said:


> Perhaps Glamdring _glows_ blue when orcs are about, and _shines_ white in the heat of battle, "invested" with Gandalf's power.



Yeah, _that!_ 

Barley


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## Greenwood (May 3, 2005)

Arthur_Vandelay said:


> The more I think about it, Greenwood, the more I'm leaning towards the idea that the passage I cited from _The Hobbit_ indicates that Glamdring (at least) actually does glow blue. Blue flame is an odd metaphor for brightness--surely yellow or red flame would have been more appropriate--_unless_ something in particular was being asserted about the colour of the glowing sword.


While I do not see why "yellow or red flame" would be anymore appropriate a brightness metaphor than "blue flame", I do agree with you that the passage you found in The Hobbit tends to support Glamdring glowing blue. I would still be like to see a quote from LOTR that supported that, if such a passage exists. I thing it is interesting that we have several passages that describe Sting as glowing blue, but Glamdring seems to be always be white, if a color is mentioned at all.


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## Arthur_Vandelay (May 3, 2005)

Greenwood said:


> While I do not see why "yellow or red flame" would be anymore appropriate a brightness metaphor than "blue flame"



It's just that yellow or red are arguably more conventionally associated with fire or flame--and (though I'm not sure about it) yellow or red flames would possibly be brighter than blue flames. If so, blue flame might have been chosen to signify more than just brightness.



> I think it is interesting that we have several passages that describe Sting as glowing blue, but Glamdring seems to be always be white, if a color is mentioned at all.



Maybe Glamdring's whiteness on the Bridge of Khazad-dum is a proleptic nod to what will happen to Gandalf after his battle with the Balrog--i.e. he becomes Gandalf the _White_.


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## Gothmog (May 3, 2005)

Arthur_Vandelay said:


> Maybe Glamdring's whiteness on the Bridge of Khazad-dum is a proleptic not to what will happen to Gandalf after his battle with the Balrog--i.e. he becomes Gandalf the White.


And perhaps it is simply because Gandalf is facing a Balrog, slightly more powerfull a creature than an orc.


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## Arthur_Vandelay (May 3, 2005)

Gothmog said:


> And perhaps it is simply because Gandalf is facing a Balrog, slightly more powerfull a creature than an orc.



I wasn't disputing that, but perhaps it could be both?


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## Greenwood (May 3, 2005)

Is there anything, anywhere in Tolkien's writings that says elven swords glow white in the presence of a balrog? Or that they glow different colors in the presence of different evil creatures?


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## Arthur_Vandelay (May 4, 2005)

Greenwood said:


> Is there anything, anywhere in Tolkien's writings that says elven swords glow white in the presence of a balrog? Or that they glow different colors in the presence of different evil creatures?



Great questions!

OK, TTFers, this is what we want to know:

Is it stated or indicated anywhere in Tolkien's writings that:

*(a) Glamdring glows blue when Orcs are nearby?

(b) it is a property of elven swords generally that they will glow blue when Orcs are nearby? 

(c) it is a property of elven swords generally that they will glow/shine white in the presence of a Balrog?

(d) it is a property of elven swords that they will glow/shine different colo**u**r**s in the presence of different creatures?
*


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## Helm (May 8, 2005)

I'd say yea to a) and b) but no to c) and d). also didn't Alcun quote that Glamdring shone white at a time when the Belrog was not near? Narsil, was it made by the Elves 'cause it shone I think.


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