# Last Alliance



## gate7ole (Feb 11, 2003)

I would like to discuss this event that hasn’t been described in detail by Tolkien, although it greatly effected the following Ages.
1.


> Now Elendil and Gil-galad took counsel together, for they perceived that Sauron would grow too strong and would overcome all his enemies one by one, if they did not unite against him. Therefore they made that League which is called the Last Alliance, and they marched east into Middle-earth gathering a great host of Elves and Men; and they halted for a while at Imladris. It is said that the host that was there assembled was fairer and more splendid in arms than any that has since been seen in Middle-earth, and none greater has been mustered since the host of the Valar went against Thangorodrim.


So, was this host even greater than that of Nirnaeth? Elrond seems to believe so (see LOTR: The council of Elrond), though he may not be objective since he participate in the Last Alliance. Yet, Sauron was defeated while Morgoth was not. Of course there is no comparison between those two Ainur, but Sauron had the Ring and was supposed to be unconquerable with it. Compare this with the War of The Ring, where Sauron without the Ring would have crushed his enemies easily. Was the waning of the peoples of ME so deep?

2.


> From Imladris they crossed the Misty Mountains by many passes and marched down the River Anduin, and so came at last upon the host of Sauron on Dagorlad, the Battle Plain, which lies before the gate of the Black Land. All living things were divided in that day, and some of every kind, even of beasts and birds, were found in either host, save the Elves only. They alone were undivided and followed Gil-galad. Of the Dwarves few fought upon either side; but the kindred of Durin of Moria fought against Sauron.


All living things were divided in that day. But, I can think of two exceptions. 
First the hobbits. Did they exist by then? I suppose that they existed. And if they lived by the river Anduin, they could have been involved in one way or another with the war. I guess that something would have been mentioned in the writings if they had actually participated. So, why didn’t they? Did they flee from war (e.g. north)?
Second the dragons. I may be wrong, but I don’t think that any dragon participated in the Last Alliance. This is very curious, since we would expect from Sauron to use this ultimate tool, which would have scattered his enemies. The idea that the dragons were not in league with Sauron is IMO wrong, since the dragons would go where there were hoards and Sauron would definitely lure them. So, why didn’t the dragons fight at the Last Alliance? Where was Smaug, Scatha etc?

3.


> Thus began the Third Age of the World, after the Eldest Days and the Black Years; and there was still hope in that time and the memory of mirth, and for long the White Tree of the Eldar flowered in the courts of the Kings of Men, for the seedling which he had saved Isildur planted in the citadel of Anor in memory of his brother, ere he departed from Gondor. The servants of Sauron were routed and dispersed, yet they were not wholly destroyed; and though many Men turned now from evil and became subject to the heirs of Elendil, yet many more remembered Sauron in their hearts and hated the kingdoms of the West. …


No words about the Eldar. They suddenly disappear from the scene. Only a few High-Elves at Imladris and Grey Havens. And they seem to have no more concern about the events of ME. They choose no other leader (btw why didn’t Gil-Galad have a heir?), they are involved in no other wars.
Yet, they fought with great casualties at the Last Alliance. Why did they fight if they planned to abandon ME afterwards? Was it a sense of duty that this was their war, their fault and they should amend their mistakes for the sake of the other free races? Or was their removal from the events of Third Age an afterthought, the result of the sorrow of their losses?


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by gate7ole _
> *
> 2.All living things were divided in that day. But, I can think of two exceptions.
> First the hobbits.
> Second the dragons. *





> All living things were divided in that day, and some of every kind, even of beasts and birds, were found in either host, save the Elves only.



This statement is an exaggeration; IMO Tolkien used it for the sake of achieving a dramatic effect, and to show how unconquerable Elves were by evil, with only a few exceptions throughout Elvish history.
Another logical exception that I can think of are the Eagles. They were the most trustworthy servants of Manwë and they seem unlikely to stray from the path of good. They have always been protectors of Good; I cannot imagine them fighting on Sauron's side.

If we take the statement to mean exactly and only what it says, then we can ask:
Did Balrogs/Orcs/Trolls/... fight on both sides? 
which is obviously illogical.

There is absolutely no evidence about the presence of dragons at the LA. Which doesn't prove they weren't there, but I guess it would have been at least mentioned if they were.


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## Eledhwen (Feb 26, 2003)

*Good subject, Gate7ole*

Just as the above quoted statement is an exaggeration, so the Hobbits, ever overlooked, are, er... , overlooked.

Now, why no mention of the Elves as the third age begins? Here's a guess....

They are not yet tired of Middle Earth, though they are tired of wars. It's not the same for Elves; living for so long. Men can live and die a life of peace for their brief stay. The Elves stay alive and have to go through it all again with the next upsurge of evil. 

Having seen off Sauron, the Elves return to their woodland realms. Men rarely see an Elf if the Elf does not want to be seen, and remember, many men fought on the dark side and were not to be trusted.

As the Third Age went on, and Men gained the ascendancy, Elves felt the fading - they were more drawn to the West than to their Middle Earth realms. As evil again began to rise again, they left in increasing numbers, their love of what was left of their world diminished beyond the will to fight for it yet again. So it was that, when the Ring crisis arose, the only help Elves could offer was a safe haven, advice and gifts; not least because, unlike men, they saw the wisdom in the blind side attack that the little Hobbits would make.


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## Starflower (Dec 29, 2003)

So, was this host even greater than that of Nirnaeth? Elrond seems to believe so (see LOTR: The council of Elrond), though he may not be objective since he participate in the Last Alliance. Yet, Sauron was defeated while Morgoth was not. Of course there is no comparison between those two Ainur, but Sauron had the Ring and was supposed to be unconquerable with it. Compare this with the War of The Ring, where Sauron without the Ring would have crushed his enemies easily. Was the waning of the peoples of ME so deep?

I think this host was defnitely greater in numbers than that in Nirnaeth Arnoediad, this was after all the 'Last' Alliance. BOth Men and Elves were more numerous than in the First Age. 

I thnk that Morgoth's power was far greater than Sauron's, his evil was deeper rooted so much so that it took the whole host of the Valar to dispose of him. And even Sauron was not easy to get rid of either, it took years of siege ( where as we know -among others -Anarion met his end).It is said that the Eldar were still strong, the Light of the Blessed Realm had not yet been extinguished in them, that was one reason why Sauron was overthrown in the end ( though not completely as we later find out). 
After the War, I think the Elves simply tired of ME, many of them went over the Sea as a direct consequence of the War. They could see their world diminishing, the Men were getting stronger and only very few of the Eldar still remained in ME because they saw no point in it, after all Sauron was supposedly gone for good, there was nothing left for them to do .


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 23, 2004)

Starflower said:


> BOth Men and Elves were more numerous than in the First Age.


They were? I would think that the Elves were _far _more numerous in the First Age, especially prior to all the wars (notably the Nirnaeth), and that their population was depleted in the Second Age, not only because of all the First Age bloodshed, but also owing to many of them taking ship and leaving. And since Numenor was drowned, and only a fragment of its population survived (the Faithful), the population of the 'good men' can't have exceeded their population in the First Age by much, if at all.

As for 'all living things were divided that day', I would now say that this may possibly mean 'all living things that were _right there _that day', so it's probably not all-inclusive and not applicable to creatures such as hobbits, eagles, dragons...that weren't present at all.


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## grendel (May 4, 2004)

My question is... do you think they called it the "Last Alliance" at the time? How could they know it would be the last? It seems sort of like World War I, which of course wasn't called that until World War II came along... at the time, they called it "the Great War", I believe. Anyway...


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## Inderjit S (May 5, 2004)

It is very possible, of course, that they thought it was a battle which they would never win....or a battle in which Sauron would never rise again.


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## Starbrow (May 6, 2004)

About the dragons.

Since Morgoth created dragons, he, of course, could command them to fight in his wars. However, I don't think Sauron had that kind of authority over them. Therefore, he would have to convince the dragons that it would be beneficial for them to fight with him. I don't know for what kind of incentive Smaug or Scatha would leave their hoards.


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## Inderjit S (May 6, 2004)

I think that if the dragons did take part then they would have been pretty destructive and so they would have been mentioned.

Gandalf, of course, thinks that Smaug and Sauron may have set up some kind of alliance.


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## aeglos (Jun 25, 2004)

I think that this army was great in number and had no historical precedent. however, strength is not always found in number. you must always remember the power that the elves and men wielded in earlier ages. the last alliance may have been the largest host ever gathered, but it was surely not the most powerful.


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## Link 2 (Jun 25, 2004)

_It is said that the host that was there assembled was fairer and more splendid in arms than any that has since been seen in Middle-earth, and none greater has been mustered since the host of the Valar went against Thangorodrim. _ 

I think you're all reading the wording wrong. 

It says "*SINCE* the host of the Valar went against the Thangorodrim."

So, it gives way to all the Battles of Beleriand being bigger than it, and refers to the War of Wrath being the biggest.

Then it states it was the biggest mustering of arms SINCE the War of Wrath.

It's debatable whether or not it's reffering to ME as a whole (including Beleriand and the Elder Days), or the ME of the time, which was Eriador, Rhovanion, Gondor and Mordor.


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## Annatar Lord Of Gifts (Nov 27, 2022)

What does everyone think the Nazgul were doing during War Of Last Alliance? Did they take part? And if they did were they on horseback, on winged steeds or on foot?


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## ZehnWaters (Nov 28, 2022)

Annatar Lord Of Gifts said:


> What does everyone think the Nazgul were doing during War Of Last Alliance? Did they take part? And if they did were they on horseback, on winged steeds or on foot?


The winged creatures seem to be a new creation at the time of the War of the Rings. Beyond that, yes, I think the Nazgûl took part, though what form I cannot say.


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## Annatar Lord Of Gifts (Nov 28, 2022)

I thought being on wings was their traditional method of transport?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Nov 29, 2022)

They're always depicted as riding horses, until they cross the Anduin at the time of the Siege of Minas Tirith. And as Zehn said, the text seems to imply the winged beasts hadn't been seen before-- at least in the West.

It would seem likely that they'd have taken part in the Last Alliance war, but I know of no mention of them, so all we can do is speculate.


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