# The Two Glorfindels!!



## Moonbeams (Dec 19, 2001)

*Glorfindel*

This is a question that has been bothering me for some time, and I can't seem to find a good enough answer anywhere. Since you all know Tolkiens work, some better than I do, help me find the truth, if it can be found.

There is Glorfindel, helping Frodo in FotR. Frodo sees him as one of most powerful elven lords, when he is crossinginto darkness and dissapearing.
There is Glorfindel in Sil, defending Gondolin, and dying there.

Are they the same person?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but elves can be reborn? I remember reading that somewhere. So, can you find something that says Glorfindel came back from the dead to ME, or something that says this is a completley different Glorfindel.

I think that maybe he is the same person. Simply because Tolkien had a huge imagination, and could invent a new name if he wanted to, but he choose to call them both Glorfindel. Then, maybe, they both are the same Glorfindel... 
What do you think?


----------



## Grond (Dec 19, 2001)

Different folks, same name.


----------



## Aredhel (Dec 19, 2001)

I have asked that same question, only to myself, after reading the Fellowship. I have often wondered at that, and maybe someone can help us to answer it...?


----------



## Greymantle (Dec 19, 2001)

Same guy... my favorite character, as a matter of fact. I'm going to go find my backup for this, and edit in the URL.
_

Ah yes, here it is. Thanks again to The Grey Havens. What it essentially says is yes, they're the same guy, but this was unplanned by Tolkien. At first, it was a simple accident of using the same name, but in his normal style, he found a way of justifying it.
http://tolkien.cro.net/elves/glorfind.html


----------



## Grond (Dec 19, 2001)

My apologies. I didn't know that JRRT allowed the Eldar to return from the Halls of Mandos. My assumption was based on the fact the Glorfindel died while fighting the balrog. Live and learn, as they say.


----------



## Moonbeams (Dec 19, 2001)

Thank you for that link, Greymantle. I belive it solves my question.


----------



## Cian (Dec 19, 2001)

That link is a little outdated, as Tolkiens essays were indeed eventualy published in a later volume of HoMe (PoMe)

Yep, we can trust Christopher there, as JRRTs latest thoughts on the matter generally seem to be that Glorfindel was a reluctant exile, a Noldo with kinship and allegiance to Turgon, and had no part in the kinslaying of Alqualondë ~ was slain, ultimately reincarnated and returned to Middle-earth. A nice detail is his relationship with a certain _Olórin_ during his sojourn in Aman.


----------



## pgt (Dec 29, 2001)

*Where the @#%! was Glorfindel!!!*

This one has always bothered me. Every time I read ROTK at the point that the band of northern Dunedain along with Elronds sons catch up to Aragorn, I'm shocked Glorfindel isn't among them if not leading them.

Did not Aragorn and old Glor meet like long time friends if not brothers near the ford? Was not Glor an elf lord and warrior of old from the Simarilion? Was he not able to face The Nine?

And yet, when Elronds own sons head south to help - where is he to be found? Hanging out in Rivendell?

Maybe I missed something, maybe he went to the havens the week before. Can someone help me out with an explanation of this or am I just full of wishfull thinking here?

PS: I really think Elrond could have sent a few companies. I found myself a tad disappointed a little more aide from Rivendell didn't arrive except for the 2 brothers, Glorfindel being notably absent.


----------



## Grond (Dec 29, 2001)

IMHO, and opinion only, the Eldar had decided that the Ring was a matter of man and not of elves. Man had the chance to destroy it and did not and hence the elves had not the force nor the desire to take part in the war. The sons of Elrond came because they were half-elven and I think would fight orcs anywhere in ME. They hated orcs and hunted them all the time in retribution for the damage inflicted upon their mother Celebrian by the orcs of the Misty Mountains.

Warning Warning Warning.... This is Grond's opinion only. It is not based upon facts from the movie or the book. It is his opinion and no one elses.


----------



## pgt (Dec 30, 2001)

Fair enough. There may not be a definitive answer here so all we'll have is opinions. As to Elronds sons weren't they related to Aragorn to boot!

To you point, the Eldar were hightailing it outa there and everything was an issue for man by default, ring included. 
But don't forget, the elves of Lorien were involved in a fairly significant military exercise of their own during the war of the ring. Granted it was defensive at first. Same goes for Thanduil's crew up north (though I'm not sure I always seem to seriously include them with the Eldar in my mind, Logolas excepted).

BUT Glorfindal personally went to help Aragorn and the Ringbearer on the road to Rivendell. He had a very personal relationship with Aragorn. His presence in Rohan with the others from the North would have been in support of Aragorn and not directly helping the ringbearer. Besides Elrond outranked Glorfindel (at least in Rivendell) and personally hosted and 'steered' the whole ring quest. And Elrond adviced Aragorn and was aware of the potential relationship between him and his own daughter. Therefore I contend there is no logical reason for Glorfindel to not have come down and hung w/ the future king. Further I think this was a fluke (hope this isn't sacrilige!) of the author!

Something was started in the character development of Glor in the 1st book but it wasn't followed up on in a blatant opportunity in the 3rd book. Glorfindel actually had speaking lines and all in the 1st book.

Comments?

====

PS: on an unrelated topic, how did Elrond select Legolas anyway? I doubt he had ever met Legolas prior to the big powwow. He had plenty of noble and capable elves right in Rivendell (we met one and others were mentioned). In fact I never felt like there was much of ANY relationship between Rivendell and N. Mirkwood prior to the big powwow. Then sudenly out of nowhere Elrond gives the token elf slot to an 'outsider' elf? (maybe he just figured it was a suicide mission - just kidding!!!) I like Legolas - I really do - heckuva horsemen (did they have horses up in the forest?), heckuva mariner, having again grown up in the woods. But that bow of his was oh so wicked. 'nuff rambing


----------



## Curufin (Dec 30, 2001)

There are two Glorfindels in Tolkiens books. The one in Imladris and the one in Gondolin


----------



## Obbit Trifill (Dec 30, 2001)

*If his full name was Art*

Glorfindel, maybe he was looking for his friend Paul Simondel and he forgot about the battle. It happens.


----------



## Snaga (Dec 30, 2001)

Hooray for the ignore facility!!!

I suspect that Glorfindel will have either remained in Rivendell, or gone to Lorien. Lorien was assaulted 3 times from Dol Guldur and he may have been part of the defence. Alternatively, he may have remained in Rivendell in case of attack.


----------



## Evenstar (Dec 30, 2001)

I don't know the answer about Glorfindel but...

pgt-
I've wondered the same thing too.


----------



## Curufinwe (Dec 30, 2001)

*Glorfindel*

Yes but in the book " A guide to Tolkien" It says he was most probably named after glorfindel of the gondolin. Strange but I had exactly the same question until I read about it.


----------



## Greymantle (Dec 30, 2001)

Cian... PoME? Is that the last volume? Darn, that's the one I don't have...
Does this supercede the quote on the Grey Havens site from RotS (Which I'm finally reading... huzzah!)


----------



## Cian (Dec 30, 2001)

Yep Grey, _The Peoples of Middle-Earth HoMe vol. XII_ gives the actual Tolkien texts being referred to in the link, evidently written before its publication.

We can thus see now that Chris Tolkien's conclusion is indeed spot on regarding the Elvish paragon Glorfindel. Cheers


----------



## Grond (Dec 31, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Curufin _
> *There are two Glorfindels in Tolkiens books. The one in Imladris and the one in Gondolin *


I thought so too before the printing of the Histories of Middle Earth. Glorfindel of Gondolin and Glorfindel in Imladris are one in the same. Glorfindel of Gondolin was killed by a Balrog and his spirit was received by Mandos yet Manwe rehoused his fea (soul) and reincarnated him to return to Middle-earth. This whole process is outlined in The Peoples of Middle Earth in the Histories of Middle-earth, Chapter XIII Last Writings - Of Glorfindel, Cirdan and other matters. It goes into detail of who this occurs and the logic behind it. It is a great read and something I was lucky enough to get for Christmas.


----------



## pgt (Dec 31, 2001)

Thanks Evenstar, glad I'm not alone. No bigee, Glorfindels loss not ours! ;-) Shame he missed the party though. An elf lord from the days of Gondolin would have impressed the Gondorans!


----------



## Son_of_Grond (Dec 31, 2001)

If the ring was a matter of men and not elves, then why did the elves (Elrond in particular) bestow a hobbit as ringbearer. Granted, he was reluctant to do so, but if it was a matter of men why not give the responsibility to Aragorn? 

Wait, wait, wait...I know what your answer will be...the elves thought men were weak and had little trust in them, especially after the Isildur debacle. But if it wasn't a matter of elves and they weren't going to participate in the ensuing war, then WHY was the ring a concern of theirs at all? What gave them the right to choose the fate of the ring if they weren't gonna get their hands dirty. Sneaky little buggers, those elves...

So, with that...dear father, you can take that opinion of yours and shove it up your Grond-like arse.  <-- note winky


----------



## Grond (Dec 31, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Son_of_Grond _
> *If the ring was a matter of men and not elves, then why did the elves (Elrond in particular) bestow a hobbit as ringbearer. Granted, he was reluctant to do so, but if it was a matter of men why not give the responsibility to Aragorn?
> 
> Wait, wait, wait...I know what your answer will be...the elves thought men were weak and had little trust in them, especially after the Isildur debacle. But if it wasn't a matter of elves and they weren't going to participate in the ensuing war, then WHY was the ring a concern of theirs at all? What gave them the right to choose the fate of the ring if they weren't gonna get their hands dirty. Sneaky little buggers, those elves...
> ...


First off everyone, this is my real son. And he doesn't much care for his dad's opinions either, so he will get along with everyone very well in the movie forum. 

To answer your question, oh Son of Grond, Hobbits are, according to the author, of Man. They are not a race of their own. So bestowing the quest upon Frodo was placing it back in the hands of Man. I may have misrepresented my thoughts in my previous post. What I was trying to convey was that I think Elrond and the other wise among the Eldar had decided that the fate of the Ring lay with Man. They were far sighted and could see different paths into the future. They could see things that have been, will be, could have been or might be. But, for whatever reason you believe, the facts are that they (the Eldar) did not play a significant role in the final conflict between Sauron and Middle-earth. 

As for why the Ring was a concern of theirs.... at that point in Middle-earth history, the Eldar and Istari with input from others of the Wise, had dominion over Middle-earth via the power of the Elven rings. At least that's the way I read the Author's writings on the subject. But I could be misinterpreting stuff or just be outright wrong.


----------



## Snaga (Dec 31, 2001)

I just started reading the Hobbit to my son. If this is where it leads maybe I'll try Harry Potter instead!


----------



## Ragnarok (Dec 31, 2001)

The matter of the Ring was not for Men alone! Elrond says himself its for 'all peoples of Middle Earth.' All peoples includes Elves, Men, Dwarves, Hobbits, and everyone else. Glorfindel might not have been fighting with Aragorn but remember Sauron sent his forces to other places in Middle Earth, not just Minas Tirith. He could have been the hero at one of those battles.


----------



## Pops (Dec 31, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Grond _
> *First off everyone, this is my real son. And he doesn't much care for his dad's opinions either, so he will get along with everyone very well in the movie forum. *



Aw, heck...I care for your opinions, it's just too much fun to argue with you and watch you get all flustered and red in the face. 



> *To answer your question, oh Son of Grond, Hobbits are, according to the author, of Man. They are not a race of their own. So bestowing the quest upon Frodo was placing it back in the hands of Man. I may have misrepresented my thoughts in my previous post. What I was trying to convey was that I think Elrond and the other wise among the Eldar had decided that the fate of the Ring lay with Man. They were far sighted and could see different paths into the future. They could see things that have been, will be, could have been or might be. But, for whatever reason you believe, the facts are that they (the Eldar) did not play a significant role in the final conflict between Sauron and Middle-earth.
> 
> As for why the Ring was a concern of theirs.... at that point in Middle-earth history, the Eldar and Istari with input from others of the Wise, had dominion over Middle-earth via the power of the Elven rings. At least that's the way I read the Author's writings on the subject. But I could be misinterpreting stuff or just be outright wrong. *



My question was loaded...with crap. I really was pulling stuff out of my arse just to give you the aforementioned red face. I don't argue with you on Tolkien stuff.

When are you shipping me Silmarillion?


----------



## pgt (Jan 3, 2002)

Not that it directly relates to the ring, but the Elves did mingle in the affairs of men when it suited them. The same Glorfindel himself, who later snubbed Aragorn w/ his absence in ROTK (before I'm flamed - I'm being fecitious) led the host out of Imladris to assist with the defeat of the Witch King in the III age.

Later in the III age, Boromir says that the Elrond/Imladris power lies not in military strength but wisdom and advice. Now where would he have gotten an idea like that considering their one major interaction with Imladris was with a host of elves? That one really strikes me as a non-sequiter.

"...at that point in Middle-earth history, the Eldar and Istari with input from others of the Wise, had dominion over Middle-earth via the power of the Elven rings. At least that's the way I read the Author's writings on the subject. But I could be misinterpreting stuff or just be outright wrong." While I'm not disagreeing, I wonder if some some of the prouder men of Gondor such as Denethor and Boromir would entirely agree.


----------



## Grond (Jan 3, 2002)

pgt, your interpretation is probably as accurate as any. The Power of the Elven Rings kept both Imladris and Lorien as places where time moved slower for the Eldar. While only hours passed for them, days and months passed outside. (Remember the Fellowships confusion with time there). This kept their little corner of the world pure and unsullied by the outside changes. 

At the same time, they most likely did hold dominion over M-e. (ie. The White Council). But, add to all this the mass departure of elves moving from East to West and you will see from the writings, that the Elves were already dwindling as a presence on Middle-earth. More and more of the kindred tired of Middle-earth and departed to Aman. I feel this depletion of population illustrates why there were no significant Elf forces sent to aid Aragorn in his battles. There were only enough to protect their own domain. 

I don't have the texts in front of me, but I believe they would support my assertions. (I will look tonight). BTW, does anyone remember Bilbo or Frodo ever meeting elves in any of the books when they were headed east? It seems they were always going towards the Havens. But, again, messages would always end up reaching Rivendell before the parties. Another mystery!!


----------



## Cian (Jan 3, 2002)

Glorfindel was sent (back) to aid Gil-galad and Elrond, and his place was with Elrond I think. Rivendell was likely an ultimate target of the enemy at least, though it lay farther behind the line of the West (so to speak), and indeed had become a refuge of lore, healing & rest & etc. Gandalf states in _The Quest for Erebor_ that: _"I thought then, and I am sure now, that to attack Lórien and Rivendell, as soon as he was strong enough, was his original plan."_

In the Appendices Gandalf extolled the virtues of the battles in the North (albeit concentrating on Dale and the Dwarves, the Dragon problem ...) noting that there might have been dragon-fire and savage swords in Eriador, night in Rivendell, no Queen in Gondor.

Swords might have been needed there still, as they were in Lórien, though Elrond allowed his very sons to Gondor. Just my take.


----------



## Curufin (Jan 3, 2002)

I haven't read "The history of middle-earth". Only The sil.
I haven't seen THOM-E in sweden(where I live)


----------



## Tar-Palantir (Jan 3, 2002)

"PS: on an unrelated topic, how did Elrond select Legolas anyway? I doubt he had ever met Legolas prior to the big powwow. He had plenty of noble and capable elves right in Rivendell (we met one and others were mentioned). In fact I never felt like there was much of ANY relationship between Rivendell and N. Mirkwood prior to the big powwow. Then sudenly out of nowhere Elrond gives the token elf slot to an 'outsider' elf? (maybe he just figured it was a suicide mission - just kidding!!!) I like Legolas - I really do - heckuva horsemen (did they have horses up in the forest?), heckuva mariner, having again grown up in the woods. But that bow of his was oh so wicked." - pgt

In "The Ring Goes South", Elrond states that Legolas and Gimli "are willing to go at least to the passes of the Mountains, and maybe beyond." But you do bring up an interesting point: if Elrond wanted the number of the Company to be Nine, at that point he wasn't guaranteeing that it was gonna be "Nine" for very long was he?


----------



## Cian (Jan 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by pgt _
> Same goes for Thanduil's crew up north (though I'm not sure I always seem to seriously include them with the Eldar in my mind, Logolas excepted)



If you mean were Thranduil's folk considered "Eldar" then I'd say yes for the most part. I'm talking about Tolkien's more detailed divisions of the Quendi that we find in HoMe and UT of course ~ in these (& V. generally speaking!) the thing seems to be the Silvans (_Tawarwaith_) of Mirkwood and Lórien appear to be in origin Eldar (Teleri), and so remote kin of the Sindar. Thranduil was a migrant Sinda of course, and into this mix likely some Avari.


----------



## Cian (Jan 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Grond _
> The Power of the Elven Rings kept both Imladris and Lorien as places where time moved slower for the Eldar. While only hours passed for them, days and months passed outside. (Remember the Fellowships confusion with time there). This kept their little corner of the world pure and unsullied by the outside changes.



I think the effects of time were slowed, not the actual time ratio, if that's what you mean O Hammer


----------



## pgt (Jan 3, 2002)

Oh no please don't bother to look that up - but thanks! I thoroughly agree their strength in #s had long been waning and many times throughout the books they are moving ever westwards and forsaking ME. Aside from Thranduils entaglement at Erebor, Glorfindals force was perhaps the last serious expedition on their part. My only point was that he had ventured out well beyond the ford and perhaps recently by the way Elves measure time. Merely that (ROTK excepted) he did indeed 'get out and about'.

I also just mentioned this as they were indeed involved in mens affairs (albeit w/ mutual interest) at least once in a significant way since the great alliance/ring episode.

Yet the topic of Elves abandoning the affairs of men is an interesting one. It's a mixed bag and the more I think about it the more I see points that definately go both ways with varying yet valid perspectives.

I've not read HOME or UT. I'm curious just how valuable or how much they extend information already presented regarding the II age and especially the III age found in the ROTK appendices or Silmarillion? For example I know very little about Thranduil's folks - can notably more information be found there?


----------



## pgt (Jan 3, 2002)

Cian, thanks (I think ) for the info on the Mirkwood elves. They always confused me as to their lineage. I 'thought' there was a specific passage somewhere maybe in Sil that addressed them in a minor way - but boy that's been a long time - haven't read the older stuff in Sil in a very long time.

I tend to agree w/ Grond's point on how time appears to move slowly in Lorien while at a normal rate on the outside. This is alluded to at Rivendell but in Grond's Lorien example most members of the Fellowship lose track of the date while there. (Doesn't Aragorn correct them on the actual time that passed while they were there?)


----------



## Arathin (Jan 3, 2002)

Forgive me if I am baring in pgt, but about Legolas. You see none of the Rivendell Elves were exactly volantring to go. a)Legolas wanted to go. b)Legolas is the prince of Mirkwood. So he was a very good choice on Elrond's part. I also would have liked it if Glor had gone to help Aragorn, but we also have look at the fact that Elrond didn't send Aragorn's people. Galadriel did. Elrond's sons, Elrohir and Elladan, were basicly Dunedain anyways. I never thought Elrond really sent anyone to help other than the Nine Walkers. I would also like to add that although Elrond never mentioned that he knew. What parent doesn't really know when their child is in love? I think they had already told everyone. They did get married right after the war was over.


----------



## pgt (Jan 3, 2002)

Welcome Arathin and well said. Can you elaborate on Galadrial? I only recall that Aragorn summoned his kin (not the sons of Elrond) in his thoughts. Did she relay that? Sounds familiar but I don't recall specifically. The sons of Elrond were there (almost as an afterthought?) specifically because they 'wanted to go to war' if memory serves. Thanks


----------



## Arathin (Jan 4, 2002)

Well pgt, Elrond's sons are almost part of Aragorn's people because they basicly live as (and with) the Rangers. 
On the topic of Glorfindel. I too was disapointed that he didn't come with the Rangers, but (and I forget who said this before) Sauron didn't only attack Minas Trith. He sent his arms everywhere really. Just most of his forces were fighting MT. The Rangers went south because (if you recall) they first came from that land. Hence, Aragorn is the rightful king. I think if they didn't already belong to that land, then none of them, not even Aragorn, would have come. The sons of Elrond, in this case, went with to avenge what the Orcs had done to their mother, Celebrian. (And because they were "youths" who only look for glory on the battle field. 

Namarie! Nai hiruvalye Valimar! 
Nai elye hiruva. Namarie!


----------



## Arathin (Jan 4, 2002)

Sorry I forgot about Galadriel in that last post.
As for her, the Elven ring she wears is the ring of the mind, I guess you would say. Her "mirror" only works because of the ring. She can look into people's minds with the ring, and "speak" to them or "show" them things that they desire. Deep hidden things. Like when the Company meets her, she looks into the mind of each, and offers or shows them something to test their loyalty to the Company and its mission. She knows that Aragorn wants his people because she is "looking after" him as the betrothed to her grand-daughter. She might have, on the other hand with Elrond's sons, requested that they go with the Rangers. It also might have been that they had a closer relationship with Aragorn and his people than anyother Elf, including Glor and Elrond, excluding Arwen.


----------



## Wood Elf (Feb 22, 2002)

*Glorfindel..*

Now in the Sil, Glorfindel fights at the fifth battle, and later on is killed in a fight with a balrog. How does he appear at the ford in F.o.t.R if he died back in the Sil? Is this explained somewhere? Is this one of 'Tolkien's mysteries'?


----------



## Ancalagon (Feb 22, 2002)

Tolkien never planned the insertion of Glorfindel at Flight To The Ford with the same intention he had included him in Silmarillion. However some information can be gleaned from Return of the Shadow (Home) that may shed a little light on the matter.
Christopher Tolkien wrote; 



> Some notes that were scribbled down at Sidmouth in Devon in the late summer of 1938 (Biography, p. 187) on a page of doodles evidently represent my father's thoughts for the next stages of the story at this time:






> Very notable is "Glorfindel tells of his ancestry in Gondolin". Years later, long after the publication of The Lord of the Rings, my father gave a great deal of thought to the matter of Glorfindel, and at that time he wrote: "[The use of Glorfindel] in LoTR is one of the cases of the somewhat random use of the names found in the older legends, now referred to as the Silmarillion, which escaped reconsideration in the final published form of The Lord of the Rings." He came to the conclusion that Glorfindel of Gondolin, who fell to his death in combat with a Balrog after the sack of the city (II. 192-4, IV.145), and Glorfindel of Rivendell were one and the same: he was released from Mandos and returned to Middle-earth in the Second Age.




There is nothing else definitive that I can find though others may be able to shed further light on the subject.


----------



## Camille (Feb 22, 2002)

> However some information can be gleaned from Return of the Shadow (Home) that may shed a little light on the matter.



hello Ancalagon, just a question by HOME what do you mean??

And about the Glorfindel subject something is said in the book of lost tales part 2 : The fall of Gondolin, there is a tale full in details about the fall of gondolin and at the end there are a lot of notes from Cristopher tolkien I will check them and I will post them
Greetings


----------



## Beleg Strongbow (Feb 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Camille _
> *
> 
> hello Ancalagon, just a question by HOME what do you mean??
> ...




Glorfindel was let to come back by the god mandos who looks after dead sprits and he was let to come back and help fight against sauron in the 2nd and 3rd ages.


----------



## Ancalagon (Feb 22, 2002)

Camille; HOME means History of Middle-Earth.

Beleg, where did you come by that information?


----------



## Harad (Feb 22, 2002)

> help fight against sauron in the 2nd and 3rd ages



After the CoE he was rooting from the back benches.


----------



## Úlairi (Feb 24, 2002)

Yes Ancalagon, Beleg is right. It says in the Sil that Mandos allowed Glorfindel to come back just as he did Beren and I believe that Glorfindel was the only Elf to come back from the halls of Mandos. Perhaps Beleg could tell us where exactly that is in the Sil. Beleg?


----------



## Ancalagon (Feb 24, 2002)

Please, forgive my ignorance on this subject, but I cannot find reference to Glorfindels return anywhere in The Silmarillion. f 2 people say this, then I always call into question my own convictions, however, on this occassion I would need some evidence to support the arguement...........not for any reason other than to restore my sanity


----------



## Harad (Feb 24, 2002)

The Silmarillion does not include any mention of Glorfindels return.

The only place that was found apparently was in correspondence of JRRT when he was quizzed about the link, if any, between Glorfindel of Gondolin and Glorfindel of the Ford of Bruinen.

IMO, JRRT chose among bad options to have these Glorfindels be the same. This makes even more unexplainable the fact that Glorfindel in LOTR sits out the War of the Ring after the CoE.


----------



## Cian (Feb 24, 2002)

Tolkien's essays regarding the Glorfindel question appear in the HoMe volume 
"The Peoples of Middle-earth", _Last Writings_. See also HoMe 'The Return of the Shadow'.


----------



## Hama (Feb 25, 2002)

I had believed that the two Glorfindels were always different and that possibly the one from the LoTR was named after the one from Gondolin. This was for two reasons:
1) The two Glorfindels act very differently from each other. First of all, the Glorfindel of Gondolin was a great warrior, one of the key generals of Turgon, which meant he must have been very great, and he also killed a Balrog in battle, something that even Gandalf had difficulty doing. However, the Glorfindel of LoTR, although he does manage to confront all nine of the ringwraiths, is not given nearly the same importance as the Glorfindel of Gondolin.
2) There are many cases of people and places being named after others. Lothlorien is named after the garden of Lorien in Valinor. Denethor is named after the elf of Ossiriand. Mablung of Ithilien is named after Mablung of Doriath. Ecthelion of Gondor is named after Echtelion of Gondolin. So I assumed that Glorfindel was such a case.

However if JRRT said so, it must be right...I guess, although I have a hard time imagining it. I heard that Glorfindel, like Beren, was released by Mandos, on another thread somewhere. I don't remember...


----------



## Beleg Strongbow (Feb 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ancalagon _
> *Camille; HOME means History of Middle-Earth.
> 
> Beleg, where did you come by that information? *




Anc i think i heard it from one of the threads a while a go. And i always believe it do you have any info that it is wrong? Maybe their is something HOME? I haven't read them though i want 2.


----------



## Camille (Feb 25, 2002)

hello Guys I have checked the notes of Cristopher tolkien at the Book of lost tales 2: the fall of Gondolin, and he does not say anything about Glorfindel, he does about Legolas but that doesnt help no? actually I dont believe they are the same person but that is just a thought  greetings


----------



## Beleg Strongbow (Feb 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Camille _
> *hello Guys I have checked the notes of Cristopher tolkien at the Book of lost tales 2: the fall of Gondolin, and he does not say anything about Glorfindel, he does about Legolas but that doesnt help no? actually I dont believe they are the same person but that is just a thought  greetings *




yes iw ould like to know that would be interesting.


----------



## Harad (Feb 26, 2002)

Here are excerpts from the two essays from the "Peoples of Middle Earth." This kind of nails the identification of Glorfindel with Glorfindel altho they are not consistent with each other.



> An Elf who had once known Middle-earth and had fought in the long wars against Melkor would be an eminently suitable companion for Gandalf. We could then reasonably suppose that Glorfindel (possibly as one of a small party,(1) more probably as a sole companion) landed with Gandalf - Olorin about Third Age 1000. This supposition would indeed explain the air of special power and sanctity that surrounds Glorfindel - note how the Witch-king flies from him, although all others (such as King Earnur) however brave could not induce their horses to face him...





> We may then best suppose that Glorfindel returned during the Second Age, before the 'shadow' fell on Numenor, and while the Numenoreans were welcomed by the Eldar as powerful allies. His return must have been for the purpose of strengthening Gil-galad and Elrond, when the growing evil of the intentions of Sauron were at last perceived by them.


----------



## Mormegil (Feb 26, 2002)

I would like to think that they were one and the same. Glorfindel took out a Balrog, so he deserved to be sent back to ME.


----------



## Servant of God (Aug 31, 2002)

*Glorfindel*

I was just wondering: Who is Glorfindel? I know that one Glorfindel was an elf of Gondolin that died in its fall, but I'm talking about the other one. He drove away the witch king of Angmar during a battle in ancient Arnor (if that's the same one), he took Frodo to Imladris, and he was present at the Council of Elrond. 
But who exactly was he. The only thing that I could get is when Gandalf called him a "Prince of the West". A high-elven prince of Valinor? A prince of Tol Eressea? Could someone please clear this up for me?


----------



## Anamatar IV (Aug 31, 2002)

Glorfindell was a high elf. He did drive off the witch king in angmar of old. His horse led frodo to imladris and he drove the 6 remaining nazgul into the flood. He has earned great honor. He has defeated a balrog single handedly and if you want more information ask someone who has read UT or the sil.


----------



## Servant of God (Aug 31, 2002)

I got that much. I just wanted to know it there was any information out there about who exactly he was. Maybe what kindred of the elves he belonged to?


----------



## Anamatar IV (Aug 31, 2002)

as i said-ask someone who's read those books. What i just said are things ive picked up on this forum.


----------



## Servant of God (Aug 31, 2002)

Actually, I've read both of those books, but I can't remember if anything was mentioned in them about Glorfindel's origin. Can anybody with some more extensive knowledge than me shed some light on the situation? Is anything mentioned in any of the HoME books about him?


----------



## Anamatar IV (Aug 31, 2002)

ask some of the senior members. Ask it in one of the guilds ie. tolkienologists.


----------



## Windfola (Aug 31, 2002)

Servant:

This is what I've found: Glorfindel was of the Noldor, who had returned to ME in Exile during the Eldar Days. He was of the House of Finarphir, "leader of the Host of Rivendell and one of Elrond's chief counsellors." He foretold that the doom of the Witch-King of Angmar (a/k/a, the Lord of the Nazgul) "would not be dealt 'by the hand of man.' "

Hope that helps.


----------



## Niniel (Aug 31, 2002)

I have seen others here speculate that the Glorfindel from LOTR was the same one that died in the Silmarillion while fighting with a Balrog after the fall of Gondolin, but that he was somehow resurrected, just as Gandalf later. But I haven't seen proof of this.


----------



## Gil-Galad (Aug 31, 2002)

I've heard too that Glorfindel,who fought with the balrog and Glorfindel who takes part in LOTR are the same persons.And I like this idea,it seems to me possible that Glorfindel was resurrected ,just like Gandalf,because he fought with the Balrog.I think that's good idea as a whole.


----------



## Anamatar IV (Aug 31, 2002)

that would make sense.


----------



## Gil-Galad (Aug 31, 2002)

That's right.I think Grond would help you Servant of God.


----------



## Edhel-dûr (Aug 31, 2002)

Mmm, you need to read Morgoth´s Ring, the chapter "Of Glorfindel, Cirdan, and other matters."

In this chapter you´ll find why Glorfindel returns to Middle Earth.

Greetings.


----------



## Gil-Galad (Aug 31, 2002)

Yeah,I find it .......   .10x


----------



## Edhel-dûr (Aug 31, 2002)

And why don´t you explain it to the Forum?

My level of english is very low XDD

Greetings.


----------



## Gil-Galad (Aug 31, 2002)

here it's 05:02 am and believe me I'm diying for sleep


----------



## Ceorl (Sep 1, 2002)

Ok the two Glorfindels from the first and third ages are one and the same. It is clearly stated in one of Tolkiens letters. 

I can also tell you more accurately how Elves are reincarnated. When the Elves die, instead of leaving the world they are sent to the Halls of Mandos, from which they can be removed at the will of the Valar. Is it not in said the Silmarillion that Finrod Felagund walks now with his father under the trees in Aman? He was not however resurrected in the same way as Gandalf. Gandalf was one of the Ainur, he is immortal in every sense, he cannot be slain. The Istari, were clothed in bodies 'as of men, and subject to the fears and pains of the earth'. These forms could be slain, but Gandalf himself could not be. He was returned to Valinor where he merely got dressed up in a new body and came back to ME. Although he had been given greater power by the Valar.


----------



## Ancalagon (Sep 1, 2002)

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1462&pagenumber=1

You may also wish to read through this thread as it has a considerable amount of reference to Glorfindel.


----------



## Cian (Sep 3, 2002)

Christopher Tolkien, concerning JRRTs thoughts on the matter of Glorfindel:

_____
"He came to the conclusion that Glorfindel of Gondolin, who fell to his death in combat with a Balrog after the sack of the city (II. 192-194, IV. 145), and Glorfindel of Rivendell were one and the same: he was released from Mandos and ..." C. Tolkien _The Return Of The Shadow_ 
__________

Tolkien's essays (ultimately published in a later volume of _The History Of Middle-Earth_) indeed bear out Christopher Tolkien's statement above.


----------



## Cian (Sep 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ceorl _ *... but Gandalf himself could not be. He was returned to Valinor where he merely got dressed up in a new body and came back to ME. Although he had been given greater power by the Valar. *



According to _Letters_ it would seem to be the Authority _Ilúvatar_ who enhanced Gandalf and sent him back, not the Valar:


__________

"So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned. ... (substantial edit by me) ... Sent back by whom and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time'. ~ JRRT
__________


----------



## Carantalath (Sep 3, 2002)

Thank you for figuring that out. I just thought that there were two Glorfindels but that's cool that he was the same elf. I was actually going to post asking about that but now that Servant of God has already asked, thanks for figuring that out!


----------



## Edhel-dûr (Sep 3, 2002)

The case of Gandalf is diferent of the case of Glorfindel.

Don´t forget that Gandalf is a Maia.

Glorfindel is an elf and like all elves he can be reincarnated.

The Valar can asume the return of Glorfindel.

Please, read the Peoples of Middle Earth XD

Greetings.


----------



## Arvedui (Oct 18, 2002)

*Is there more than one Glorfindel?*

From The Silmarillion, Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin:


> Many are the songs that have been sung of the duel of Glorfindel with the Balrog upon a pinnacle of rock in that high place; and both fell to ruin in the abyss. But the eagles coming stooped upon the Orcs, and drove them shrieking back; and all were slain or cast into the deeps, so that rumour of the escape from Gondolin came not until long after to Morgoth's ears. Then Thorondor bore up Glorfindel's body out of the abyss, and they buried him in a mound of stones besides the pass; and a green turf came there, and yellow flowers bloomed upon it amid the barrenness of stone, until the world was changed.


Who then, is the Glorfindel in The Lord of the Rings?


----------



## Confusticated (Oct 18, 2002)

From HoME - _The Return of the Shadow_


> *Also very notable is 'Glorfindel tells of his ancestry in Goldolin.' Years later, long after the publication of The Lord of the Rings,my father gave a great deal of thought to the matter of Glorfindel, and at that time he wrote:'[The use of Glorfindel] in The Lord of the Rings is one of the cases of the somewhat random use of the names found in the older legends, now referred to as The Silmarillion, which escaped reconsideration in the final publication of The Lord of the Rings.' He came to the conclusion that Glorfindel of Gondolin, who fell to his death in combat with a Balrog after the sack of the city, and Glorfindel of Rivendell were one and the same: he was released from mandos and returned to Middle-earth in the second age.*



and that's that..


----------



## Arvedui (Oct 18, 2002)

Thanks. I was halfway expecting that.
Dang. I've GOT to get HoME


----------



## Valinorean (Oct 18, 2002)

I think the consensus is that there is only one, but check out this old thread about Glorfindel for some good info.

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=4986&highlight=glorfindel


----------



## Maeglin (Oct 18, 2002)

ooh ooh I have a question, what is this like the 50th thread debating who I actually am? Well I can tell you that I am both Glorfindels, the one in the The Sil and FotR, I have been asked this before by other people in the forum, and I used more or less the same quote Confusticated used to explain this, so I am telling you all that there the same elf, even if you don't want to believe it. But as for my name I prefer to be thought of as the Glorfindel from the Sil, though I love them both just cause there the best elf ever, but look at my avatar and my status, I'm the Glorfindel that fell while Killing that big mean Balrog on the Mountains around Gondolin. See this is me fighting the Big Mean Balrog


----------



## Grond (Oct 18, 2002)

I have merged and renamed this old thread which deals with the subject. Anyone who wants further information (beyond the simple answer) can post here.


----------

