# Mithrandir



## childoferu (Jan 1, 2011)

Just how powerful was Gandalf, compared to such greats as Galadriel, the Witch-King, or Sauron?

I would like a detailed answer


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## Prince of Cats (Jan 2, 2011)

What an interesting topic!

In relationship to Gandalf, Galadriel and the Witch-king are lesser than Gandalf in regards to race *but* to what extent is his old-man shell a hindrance? Galadriel seems to pull her power from age/lore and the ring, both of which Gandalf have. The witch-king has a pretty remarkable presence, being able to incapacitate huge amounts of people with fear; I don't remember Gandalf being able to have the reverse effect to that extent.

In respect to Sauron ... well he's obviously better at making rings :*) well, presumably


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## Parsifal (Jan 2, 2011)

Gandalf himself makes one remark about this:

_'Dangerous!' cried Gandalf. 'And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord._

Knowing Gandalf to be very fair and objective, this means he is definately more powerfull then Galadriel and the Witch-King, but inferior to Sauron. At least after he returned and took on Sarumans role as "The White".

_'Yes, I am white now,' said Gandalf. 'Indeed I am Saruman, one might almost say, Saruman as he should have been._


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## e.Blackstar (Feb 14, 2011)

I feel that this is somewhat an apples to oranges case. Gandalf was very powerful and indeed dangerous, but his purpose was so vastly different from that of Sauron, the Witch-King, or even Galadriel that it's difficult to compare. He and Galadriel probably shared the same mission, in the sense that they both had Eleven rings and were responsible for guarding the 'lesser' beings; however, it seems like that was Gandalf's entire life purpose, whereas Galadriel took the charge voluntarily. She had skills and experiences that Gandalf would never have, but he certainly had his own toolkit as well (so to speak). As for Sauron and the Witch-king, their power is gained through evil rather than being inherent (especially in the case of the Witch-king).


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## Zenith (May 17, 2011)

You are right Blackstar, about them having different purposes. However, I am slightly confused by a line Gandalf spoke in The Treason of Isengard. "Indeed my friends, none of you have any weapon that could hurt me." He spoke these words after the Three Wanderers almost attacked him. Now Aragorn had Anduril at this point, and Legolas had the bow of the Galadhrim. If Narsil/Anduril could harm Sauron, how could it no harm Gandalf. Sure Gandalf is white, but he later admits, "but black is still mightier". Well there is your answer in respect to Sauron at least, right from Gandalf's lips. 

Now if you recall Gandalf the Grey fought with all the Nine on top of Weathertop. However the Ringwraiths' power is somewhat dependent on terror, darkness, and proximity to Sauron. So if Gandalf was able to give battle to all Nine as Grey, he must be way more powerful than the Witch-King and indeed, any Ringwraith. Well, it appeared slightly different before the gates of Minas Tirith, even though he was White. We are given no clear winner of that confrontation, but it seemed to have a less-than-positive effect on Gandalf. He appeared to be somewhat frozen or in a trance. So I would say if the confrontation was not under the Dark Storm of Mordor, Gandalf would be the victor. It appears nearly even while under the Shadow. 

In respect to Galadriel, their purposes are entirely different, as were their rings. Gandalf used his to, as Cirdan put it, "kindle the fires in the hearts of Men". Galadriel used hers to heal and sustain, and preserve. Frodo got a glimpse of her hidden power, but Gandalf is much more combat oriented, which makes them difficult to compare.

Back to the Indestructible Gandalf, I am not sure what he meant when he said "none of you have any weapon that could hurt me". 

Any ideas?


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## Parsifal (May 17, 2011)

Zenith said:


> Back to the Indestructible Gandalf, I am not sure what he meant when he said "none of you have any weapon that could hurt me".


 
My 2 cents: 

His bodily form could obviously be destroyed. Sauron was defeated by Isildur, Saruman was "killed" by Grima, Gandalf and the Balrog destroyed eachother. However, being Immortal, there spirit could never "die", nor really be "hurt" be any material weapon.

Thus, even if Gandalf's body was killed or destroyed, he could, maybe with help of the Valar/Eru, retake another shape in time and keep all of his power.
Sauron of course could do this too. But the chief "mistakes" evil characters make in Tolkiens Universe is that they invest too much of their Power into their physical shape (or object).

Sauron thus was never killed, but crippled with the loss of the Ring: 

_If it is destroyed, then he will fall; and his fall will be so low that none can foresee
his arising ever again. For he will lose the best part of the strength that was
native to him in his beginning, and all that was made or begun with that power
will crumble, and he will be maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice
that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape. And so a
great evil of this world will be removed._

and

_And as the Captains gazed south to the Land of Mordor, it seemed to them that, black against the pall of cloud, there rose a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightning-crowned, filling all the sky. Enormous it reared above the world, and stretched out towards them a vast threatening hand, terrible but impotent: for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed; and then a hush fell._

Saruman had already lost most of his Power to Gandalf, and though his spirit also "rose up" after his physical form perished, the remnants of his spirit were denied by the West:

_For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing._

Melkor seems to have made the same mistake, and was unable to take a "fair" appearance eventually. Also the Valar could imprison or banish him by doing this to his physical form.


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## Zenith (May 17, 2011)

Re: Parsifal

I understand what you're saying and I agree with it, but it just seems like Gandalf is referring to physical harm. Indeed, The Tolkien Encyclopedia states that when Gandalf underwent his transformation, he became "a radiant being that no weapon could harm".


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## Sulimo (May 18, 2011)

I am almost certain that in the chapter with the Palantir, Gandalf states that Pippin did him a service by looking into it. Because without Pippin's forewarning he himself might have come before the dark lord before he was ready, and that could have proved disastrous. 

I think that in sheer power Sauron is stronger even without his ring. For in the Valaquenta, when it touches upon Olorin it says his wisdom is the greatest of all the Maiar. Wisdom is Gandalf's strongest weapon. Though he is quite capable in battle, and he may be impervious to weapons as the white, his wisdom is his most effective attribute. A good example of this being put to use is the scene where he makes the trolls argue until the sun rises. Yes, Gandalf could have used his wizard powers and smitten the trolls, but he chose instead to use his wit. 

His wisdom is what paved the way for the downfall of Sauron. So, in my opinion Gandalf always comes out on top. In regards to the Witch-King, I think its no contest Gandalf would win. His ability to kill Durin's Bane proves that to me. No man or woman has slain a balrog, but Eowyn a human took out the witch king with some hobbit aid. 

I agree with what others posted about Galadrial, there powers are very different. However, even in diminished form I think that he trumps her. Otherwise she would have been leader of the white council, and not one of the Istari.


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## Parsifal (May 18, 2011)

Sulimo said:


> His wisdom is what paved the way for the downfall of Sauron. So, in my opinion Gandalf always comes out on top. In regards to the Witch-King, I think its no contest Gandalf would win. His ability to kill Durin's Bane proves that to me. No man or woman has slain a balrog, but Eowyn a human took out the witch king with some hobbit aid.


 
Do not underestimate the Wisdom of Sauron, as Gandalf a few times points out.

_For he is very wise, and weighs all things to a nicety in the scales of his malice._

I think Gandalf is superior to Wisdom to Sauron, but only because of Sauron's limited way of measuring things.

_But the only measure that he knows is desire, desire for power; and so he judges all hearts._


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## Jon Lannister (Jun 30, 2011)

Sauron is one of the greatest (if not the greatest) of all Maiar. He survived the downfall of Morgoth and forged a ring of immense power. So, he is the only one superior to Gandalf in Middle-Earth. Radagast, Saruman and the Blue Wizards are next, for they too were Maiar.


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