# where'd everybody go?



## Firawyn

Okay I remember a sweet time in the life of TTF that there were usually 10 or so people online at a time. There is like noone here anymore. I think there are THREE people signed on right now, including myself. What gives? TTF needs something to spark it to life again!

Fir-


----------



## Maeglin

Well it became popular mainly because of the movies being released. Now that all of the movie hype is gone, there are less people looking for Tolkien-related stuff and reading the books, probably leading to a decrease in activity. Tis sad, I know, but true.


----------



## YayGollum

What gives? Well, mayhaps what this Maeglin person suggested, but is it that large of a deal? No large deal, I decide. Why worry about it? There are always people reading the bookses for the first time who end up looking for a good place to show off their newly acquired knowledge, yes? Mayhaps not at the frequency that you are looking for, crazy Firawyn person, but oh well. Wish to help out? Look at what keeps most people here, then come up with something better, which will interest them and the random lurkers. Great advice, I know.


----------



## e.Blackstar

*raises hand* I dunno 'bout everyone else, but I'm not on near as much 'cause o' me parentals. They been kickin' me off...


----------



## Arvedui

Activity on TTF has always been in waves. Sometimes a lot of people are online, other times there are few.

And then there is the question of how much more of Tolkien's stuff there are that hasn't been discussed and debated to the core already.
But TTF will live on! There's four of us already in this thread only.


----------



## Arthur_Vandelay

It's sad to say, but for myself I think I've gotten Tolkien/LOTR pretty much out of my system by now--so I feel less inclined to post here than I used to. 

(I have to admit that all the movie hype sapped my enthusiasm.)


----------



## e.Blackstar

Arthur_Vandelay said:


> It's sad to say, but for myself I think I've gotten Tolkien/LOTR pretty much out of my system by now--so I feel less inclined to post here than I used to.
> 
> (I have to admit that all the movie hype sapped my enthusiasm.)




I, sadly, have to agree. I still love it, but the obsessive passion has waned.


----------



## HLGStrider

I blame it ALL on Ard who should NEVER have changed his name. It is all his fault!


----------



## Maeglin

Ahhh yes, as always, a wise response from Elgee solves the riddle.


----------



## Hammersmith

I blame myself.


----------



## e.Blackstar

Yes, Smitty...all your fault. 

SHUN HIM!

[cold shoulder]


----------



## Arvedui

What is there to blame? (except from myself  )
I think that this is probably the fifth death-sentence I have seen on TTF since I arrived, and it will probably not be the last.
And still there is activity! Yes, the older ones may feel like _Arthur_Vandelay_ and feel that we have had enough of Tolkien for a while. I've sure been there. And I will go there again and again. If not, what sort of life would I have?
But new members are arriving every day, aren't they? And sometimes, old questions are asked again and again. But so what? Why not let the newer members have the same fun that we did once upon a time.

But TTF will not "die" as long as there are still some active members around, even if those members have only been around for a few days. TTF does not depend on us oldies to live on.


----------



## Firawyn

We dont _depend_ on you *oldies*, but it's nice to have the wisdom around. Don't you all freakig disappear. I find this place very educational. I've been here nearly three years now, and there's still so much I want to learn about Tolkien!

I'm kinda hoping that the new Narnia movies reminds people how much they like Tolkien. Dude, you people (aka, Beorn ) in charage need to start a Narnia Forum. I've looked and lookd and looked for a good Narnia Forum but they're all dumb. Any and relativly big ones with any activity are just getting started because of the movies. Crud monkey if you ask me!


----------



## YayGollum

Garn, crazy Firawyn person! Check the name of the website thing. The Tolkien Forum Dot Com. Stick your crazy non-Tolkien threadses in that The Green Dragon section or something. I happen to be achingly certain that many will show up.


----------



## Ithrynluin

Firawyn said:


> I'm kinda hoping that the new Narnia movies reminds people how much they like Tolkien. Dude, you people (aka, Beorn ) in charage need to start a Narnia Forum. I've looked and lookd and looked for a good Narnia Forum but they're all dumb. Any and relativly big ones with any activity are just getting started because of the movies. Crud monkey if you ask me!



We could have sub forums in the Green Dragon, if members want them, i.e. Star Wars, Narnia, etc...


----------



## Arvedui

I don't think that there is any chance that we will dissappear, Firawyn. In case you haven't noticed, quite a lot of the old-timers and/or veterans are coming back, actually!
TTF is a kind of a drug, you know. You never really get it out of your system. 
Must be something about the community-feeling that most of us share.  

And you are not the only one learning. We all do, most of the time.


----------



## e.Blackstar

Élhendi said:


> TTF is a kind of a drug, you know. You never really get it out of your system.
> Must be something about the community-feeling that most of us share.



Too true.


----------



## Arthur_Vandelay

Ithrynluin said:


> We could have sub forums in the Green Dragon, if members want them, i.e. Star Wars, Narnia, etc...



That's a great idea.


----------



## Firawyn

Arthur_Vandelay said:


> That's a great idea.




I'm in! Way way way way way in! lol

@ YayGollum - you are......intriquing. Yes, that is the best word, I think. I really dont get you. (yes, that iss off topic as well, but hey!) My POINT was not to get off topic, but had you not noticed that at least 75% of Tolkien fans adore Lewis as well? Get a grip. There's a big chance people who know how to get forums up and running like they have on TTF, that they happed to like Narnia as well. So there! 

I'm glad to hear I'm not the only Tolkien lover that still can't quote all of the Arda, and many other major feats. *grin*


You know, I don't think it's TTF that's the drug. Just Tolkien. That just happens to make TTF a very popular place!!! lol


----------



## Arvedui

Well, of course tolkien is the "main drug," but there is something special about TTF as well.
I have visited and tried several other forums, but this place is the one I've stayed at.


----------



## YayGollum

Yes, I am achingly intriguing. Point me to the others that are as unique as myself.  Anyways, I did not intend to force you into a defensive position, crazy Firawyn person. I merely used the language that I did in an attempt to drive you forward. As in ---> Go, crazy person, go! We gots that The Green Dragon area just for your problem! Have fun!  I have a grip already. Also, I shall happily add my crazy opinions to a few of that crazy C. S. Lewis person's writings. So some unspecified location to you, as well!


----------



## Haldatyaro

Firawyn said:


> II'm glad to hear I'm not the only Tolkien lover that still can't quote all of the Arda, and many other major feats. *grin*


The what? Do you mean _The Silmarillion_? "The Arda" isn't a literary source, it's Tolkien's name for the physical world.

Back to topic. The drifting away of strictly movie fans inevitable, and IMO a good thing. Sure, there will be fewer users, but they will also be true Tolkien enthusiasts who wish to continue to explore the Professor's works with other like-mindeds.

I visit other Tolkien boards and it's safe to say that the interest has definitely dropped off everywhere now that the movies are a (hopefully fading) memory. I think some boards won't survive the change in tastes and will either become general fantasy-type boards giving equal weight to Tolkien, Lewis, HP, etc., or vanish completely. So mote it be. (There was one I used to lurk at that is no longer up and running -- funny, I can't recall the name at the moment. No big loss I guess...  )


----------



## Rhiannon

Obviously, I should never have left...but never fear! I'm back!


----------



## Ermundo

I love Lord of the Rings a lot just like everyone but...

that was when the movies came out...


Not to say that I like the movies only...


I've read the Silmarillion 3 times and a lot of the history of middle earth books...


I love Lord of the Rings and all the works of J.R.R Tolkien just as much as anyone...


But now that all that is over I haven't been posting a lot..


----------



## wizard2c

Wizard2c has returned. 2006 will be a special year. There will be much to talk about.


----------



## Khôr’nagan

I think one problem is that, as time goes on, some people lose their enthusiasm for the forum, myself included. I'd been gone for over a year one one day I visited again, but that visit sort of rekindled my enthusiasm, and for the past few weeks I've been posting regularly. Eventually, I think a lot of people who left will come back, because they'll remember how much fun they had here. It's a great place to be, and though sadly fewer people will come with the departure of the movies, those who stay will be the ones who know the most anyway, so it's no big loss to TTF in the end, though of course even the good ones will be less enthusiastic, as has already been stated. TTF will always live on, however, _Tenn' ambar metta!_


----------



## Barliman Butterbur

Haldatyaro said:


> ...it's safe to say that the interest has definitely dropped off everywhere now that the movies are a (hopefully fading) memory.



I can't agree with your "hopefully," but all movies fade eventually — how fast or slowly depends on their intrinsic worth and merit. I think it's safe to say that PJ's trilogy has — for better or worse — become a permanent part of the Tolkien world. And it's rather astonishing to see how often it plays on cable TV — almost like water on tap! You can pretty much depend on some station or other playing it every so often — seems to me much more often than just about any other movie they recycle.

_Ringers: Lord of the Fans_ however, seems to be proving to be just another "one-hit wonder," a flash in the pan — at least for its producers. There was tremendous hype and enthusiasm for it before it came out and during the moment it came out, but now it's pretty much off the radar. Their chat board has gone almost dead in terms of posting and gaining new members. It's subject matter is more about a certain stratum of Tolkien _fans_ than about Tolkien, so it appeals to a very narrow area of interest. But I wouldn't apply "hopefully" to it the way you did, either. It was an honest sincere effort. Sometimes that isn't enough.

Barley


----------



## Wolfshead

Khôr’nagan said:


> I think one problem is that, as time goes on, some people lose their enthusiasm for the forum, myself included. I'd been gone for over a year one one day I visited again, but that visit sort of rekindled my enthusiasm, and for the past few weeks I've been posting regularly.[/I]


Exactly what I've been doing for more than 2 years


----------



## Corvis

Firawyn said:


> Okay I remember a sweet time in the life of TTF that there were usually 10 or so people online at a time. There is like noone here anymore. I think there are THREE people signed on right now, including myself. What gives? TTF needs something to spark it to life again!
> 
> Fir-


 
My personal opinion of why people are not coming on the forum as much anymore is because of the whole post count thing. The only posts that count are those that are related to Tolkien (makes perfect sense for the TOLKIEN Forum). Though, in such places as the Green Dragon or Stuff and Bother (where I've ben spending a lot of time lately) you could post 1,000 replies and nothing would show up on your profile. Thus, this makes you look inactive on TTF. I haven't been spending much time on TTF for just that reason. I say let all posts count!


----------



## HLGStrider

As a mod, I would much rather avoid that debate in this thread, please.

Retractable Claws will be used to remove any unwanted post.


----------



## Corvis

Sorry, didn't realize that was a touchy subject. You can delete the post if you want to and I'll find the right place for that debate.


----------



## spirit

Maeglin said:


> Well it became popular mainly because of the movies being released. Now that all of the movie hype is gone, there are less people looking for Tolkien-related stuff and reading the books, probably leading to a decrease in activity. Tis sad, I know, but true.



There is still a chance of hope...
The Hobbit!!
When they (PJ?) make the movie??


----------



## Wolfshead

Corvis said:


> Sorry, didn't realize that was a touchy subject. You can delete the post if you want to and I'll find the right place for that debate.


Oh, it is. I managed to get this thread closed


----------



## Halasían

_It's sad to say, but for myself I think I've gotten Tolkien/LOTR pretty much out of my system by now--so I feel less inclined to post here than I used to. 

(I have to admit that all the movie hype sapped my enthusiasm.)_

Yes, Unfortunately this is true. I actually watched the RotK DVd the other day for the first time in a year and was satisfied I didn't fall asleep. So the great shaking out is happening and the few that remain will be the book geeks with a smattering of those who came to love Tolkiens stories deeply because of the movies, but most have moved on to the next shiny thing.

As for the notion that all things Tolkien have been debated to its end is not true. Lets debate them again, and re- write what we thing again and encourage debate with new arrivals instead of coming down on someone in a new thread saying that the topic was already discussed 'here in this thread'. Well maybe it was discussed among the folk at that time, but surely it can be discussed again?

And why a narnia forum? I loathe this notion that it has to be included on so many Tolkien sites. I love J.R.R. Tolkien, I don't care for C.S. Lewis.

Anyway... Cheers! The faithful will always be here, just not as much as days of old.


----------



## HLGStrider

I think we have the Lewis section for the same reason that we have the Star Wars and Harry Potter sections. We had enough thread on such subjects to merit their own place and these things are of interest to most Tolkien fans, which to me makes sense. We were having a lot of issues with duplicate threads on all of these subjects simply because they were getting lost in the general section.

I also think Lewis is intrinsic with Tolkien, due in part to their friendship, due in part to the similarity between some of their work, and due in part to that they have a very similar fan base. 

Personally, I had thought I had burned myself out of the Lord of the Rings as movies but I discovered that Return of the King is just the right length for snuggling, especially with someone who knows how to point out what is changed and what they like and dislike as far as the Tolkienness of it all goes.

Also, as far as bringing up links, I think providing them is a good idea not to stop the conversation but in order to let me know so I can merge the conversations, that way we get both old pearls of wisdom and fresh new ideas in the same place. 

As an "ancient" member, I know how frustrating it is for me to tell for the forth or fifth time why I think Aragorn was carrying a broken sword in Bree or whatnot. . .so it is good to just say, "Here is what I said."

Also, an added benefit for those like me who get an email whenever someone replies to a thread that someone else has replied to, it alerts old members to new discussions simply by merging a thread they are part of to one they are not (evil and sneaky).


----------



## Walter

Wolfshead said:


> Oh, it is. I managed to get this thread closed


I think we should start a new discussion on post counts. It's just so refreshing to see how some defend theirs with fangs and claws... 

It's all about quality, ain't it?


----------



## spirit

Walter said:


> It's all about quality, ain't it?


It is indeed, but not evenyone is in for quality.
 

My personal opinion, fling the post counts away, it's all about fun.  
Am I right?


----------



## Eledhwen

Post counts? I'm thinking of doing it in real life. Every time I contribute to a conversation, a little LED badge (like the ones they helpfully provide on time bombs in films) will increment by one. This will give me an aim in life.  

Seriously, we all have other commitments. Gate7ole had to do national service, Gil-galad had his studies, and these things have to take priority at times. I am heavily fundraising at the moment as my little arts group needs in the region of five to ten million pounds , and it takes time to convince others to part with such amounts (all offers considered, by the way!). This is in addition to my normal day job. This place is a haven where I don't have to think about such things and can concentrate on what I like best; but I can't be here all the time - none of us can.


----------



## HLGStrider

Walter said:


> I think we should start a new discussion on post counts. It's just so refreshing to see how some defend theirs with fangs and claws...
> 
> It's all about quality, ain't it?


 
The expert of good form and common courteousy strikes again. 

It is interesting how some attack with sticks and stones when someone else wants to keep their "little petty number."

The sides are so obviously never going to reach an agreement that I think anyone who has an opinion but values the forum and doesn't wish to see it torn apart on petty discussions more than they value getting their way ought to put their foot in their mouth and let it stay there on this subject.


----------



## Walter

HLGStrider said:


> The expert of good form and common courteousy strikes again.


Well, thank you .... I think ... 



HLGStrider said:


> It is interesting how some attack with sticks and stones when someone else wants to keep their "little petty number."


Now, I don't think it's the numbers which are petty, rather some contributions are...

And while I too think it is as Eledhwen says, that some of us have a life they need to attend to, the noticeable lack of interest in the Tolkien related sections of late is IMO not solely due to this fact.

What I really did like, when I first joined TTF was that there were quite some enthusiasts, who not only liked the works of the late Professor, but also were willing to study them thoroughly and make - what I use to call - "quality contributions". But soon others - who seemed mostly interested in chit-chat and whatnot else - came and (ab-)used this place as a stage for their "personality affairs", making post over post and opening thread over thread that weren't even remotely related to the main focus of this place. And I got the impression that Tolkien's works were only of marginal interest to many of them. 

Pretty soon the postcounts became an issue, I remember the time when Grond - the one with the highest post count then and some 90+ percent of his posts Tolkien-related and highly competent - was "overtaken" by some other members with some 90+ percent of their posts of questionable value, and only a very small number of their posts remotely related to the main topic of TTF. 

It was by that time, IIRC, that the staff began to give the issue of the postcounts some consideration and making some restrictions, and about that time Ancalagon came up with his signature "quality not quantity". But whatever was tried, it did not work to bring the main focus back to "quality" regarding Tolkien and his legendarium...

Both groups grew during the time of the movie hype, and while TTF was big and strong it seemed not a major problem. But now - in its aftermath - it seems that only a very few of the Tolkien aficionados remained "faithful" to TTF, the rest abandoned the place, whatever the reasons were. 

And now, it appears, most of the traffic happens in the chit-chat areas, the Harry Potter and the Starwars sections, etc., whereas the hardcore-Tolkien sections get little attention. Consequently "quality posts" in these sections are becoming rare and I wonder what could be done to mend that.

But one thing I know for sure, suppressing the discussion about post-counts and -quality and closing the threads where the issue comes up again won't solve the problem...


----------



## HLGStrider

Unfortunately the discussion of Post Counts _WAS _the problem. People were getting nasty and angry, and according to WM's standards, when a subject reaches the point where it cannot be discussed rationally or amicably, it should be at least temporarily shut down. These aren't necessarily my standards; I'm one of those repetitive types who doesn't mind repeating herself in thread after thread to answer the same redundant questions rehashed generally by the same people and so far I have not lost my temper in any of them, though I have been mildly annoyed at times. 

I have been here almost as long as you, I think. I remember the "glory days" of Grond when Harad was the only thing anyone worried about and I also remember Grond himself having a post count party to celebrate (I think) 3,000 posts.

No one has ever been able to offer me reasonable proof that the post count count A. Ups useless posts. B. Scares away good posts. I have heard plenty of reasons why it would do so, but it's like listing reasons why pigs can fly. Until I see a hovering swine, I'm skeptical. We have turned off the post counts before and saw no difference in posting patterns. (according to the mods before my time). 

You want my reason for the lack of activity? The constant Sniping between members over silly things.


----------



## Walter

Now, generally, I couldn't possibly care less, whether or not the number of posts of each member are counted and/or displayed. 

But back then, when Grond "celebrated" his 3000 posts he had all reason to do so. It meant also, that he had made probably some 2000 "quality-posts" regarding Tolkien and his legendarium. Some other members will probably neither reach the number nor the quality of his Tolkien-related posts in their lifetime.

Such posts as Grond and some other knowledgeable members made, encouraged newcomers - myself included - to further their study of Tolkiens legendarium and to try making posts of a similar quality. It was contagious and back then I was positively surprised how many teenagers this forum had, who were seriously interested in Tolkien's works.

But unfortunately - IMO - the making of "slo-mo-chat-posts" of certain members, who seemed more interested in displaying their selves and their postcounts than in Tolkien and his legendarium, proved as contagious ... as we could see soon after you joined...

IMNSHO having contributed a certain quantity of posts is little reason to be proud of, whereas having made a certain number of "quality on-topic posts" is a good reason to be proud of. 

And I think that the failure to create a climate where on-topic quality posts are encouraged, whereas the chit-chat and the off-topic discussions are kept at a reasonable - lower - level, as well as the failure to make clear decisions regarding the P&R discussions early, are the reasons why the on-topic discussions these days have such a low volume and level.

But, of course, that's just how I see it...


----------



## elrilgalia

HLGStrider said:


> Also, as far as bringing up links, I think providing them is a good idea not to stop the conversation but in order to let me know so I can merge the conversations, that way we get both old pearls of wisdom and fresh new ideas in the same place.


 
you know, even tho i can see where you are coming from with this... sometimes merging old and new discussions together, actually doesnt help a topic.

Mainly because, as long as its not a massive thread, newbies will read through the "merged thread" and realise that all their questions have been answered before and not bother replying.

Sometimes, just given time even those who replied to the old topic will find new things to say, or perhaps, theyve learnt more in the intervening period.

Perhaps merging the topics, after the "new" topic has died off.. would be more appropriate ???


----------



## HLGStrider

You have a point in that merging twenty page threads doesn't help. Generally I wouldn't do that. However, most threads average out 



> But unfortunately - IMO - the making of "slo-mo-chat-posts" of certain members, who seemed more interested in displaying their selves and their postcounts than in Tolkien and his legendarium, proved as contagious ... as we could see soon after you joined...


 
I'm pretty certain my membership predates this, but go ahead and think what you want.

Slo-mo-chats generally don't count to the post count around here anyway (I think you're talking about the bars and in section. . .) with perhaps the exception of the "discussing the photo album" and "Member Birthday" threads which I don't think even you are draconian enough to condemn. People have birthdays and people want to wish their friends the best. . .so again, I think that's a void point about post counts.



> And I think that the failure to create a climate where on-topic quality posts are encouraged, whereas the chit-chat and the off-topic discussions are kept at a reasonable - lower - level, as well as the failure to make clear decisions regarding the P&R discussions early, are the reasons why the on-topic discussions these days have such a low volume and level.


 
Since we don't offer any sort of prize for "high post count" I don't see how chit chat is "rewarded," so again I don't get your point.

And unless we hire someone like you to go around and slap members with a "bad member" sticker for some posts and a "good member" sticker for others and make a complete tally, I don't think there is anyway we can reward/encourage or punish/discourage any sort of topic. 

Honestly, I think everyone on the forum, with maybe one or two radical exceptions, would hate that being the case.


----------



## elrilgalia

ach! i think post counts stink!

on my forum I delete my post count regularly I dont think its ever got above 200. when I didnt own my forum, I even went as far as deleting my own older posts to reduce it

Posts are about quality, what you think, and who you are ... and ANYONE who judges someone on the number of posts they make, is trivial and silly....

Who cares what your post count is, if you get on on the forum, if people like what you post, and your posts are interesting ? AND people reply to your posts ?


----------



## HLGStrider

I'll say again: Post counts aren't about Judging Members Value.

If anyone is judging member value around here it doesn't seem to be on the post count side of the arguement. It seems that those who want it to be gone simply can't restrain their indignance over the fact that some people like their numbers. Really, isn't that like a person who likes to eat healthy punching someone out because they see that other person eating at MacDonalds?


----------



## elrilgalia

not at all

i dont even look at post counts

i look at whether what theyve posted is interesting

i guess the only value in post counts is, to work out whether they have been here for long or not


----------



## Hammersmith

HLGStrider said:


> You want my reason for the lack of activity? The constant Sniping between members over silly things.


 Tell me about it. You hit the nail on the head. How about thread assassins who dive into threads they're not at all interested in with the sole intent of sniping at someone else, cluttering up the thread with their own inane ramblings and rubbish until the thread stagnates? Not thinking of any particular contributors to this thread or anything...thinking mainly of a history thread that would make David Irving blush to look at, but I think we get the point.


----------



## DGoeij

Never seen a thread assassin (Black clothing, excellent manners, variety of close encouter weaponary and well payed, but I might be influenced by the Discworld version of the common assassin). The origin of the word I will not delve into, since it concerns a type of plant that is legally sold, but illegally grown in my country. 

But on topic, I do _read_ a lot of threads, but I do not find the time and energy (or both) to make a 'quality' contribution to the better ones. And since my own standards are somewhat high (still out of reach of the ones the true loremasters *cough*Walter*cough*  is able to produce) most of the time I simply refrain from posting.

And being a member for quite a while now, I have found my interest in Tolkien related issues comes and goes and likewise the frequency of my visits to TTF. Not to mention the issues in real life that tend to draw my attention quite a lot. This might also be the Nth thread in which I respond to waning attention at this forum.


----------



## Walter

Walter said:


> ...to create a climate where on-topic quality posts are encouraged, whereas the chit-chat and the off-topic discussions are kept at a reasonable - lower - level...





HLGStrider said:


> ...we hire someone like you to go around and slap members with a "bad member" sticker for some posts and a "good member" sticker for others...


Believe it or not, there is a difference between these two approaches...


----------



## HLGStrider

Actually what I listed was a method to achieve a goal. What you listed was a goal, without any suggestion of method.


----------



## e.Blackstar

Ooh, ooh, let's get _this_ discussion started again!  



> (Black clothing, excellent manners, variety of close encouter weaponary and well payed, but I might be influenced by the Discworld version of the common assassin).


*laughs* That's my image too.


----------



## Walter

HLGStrider said:


> Actually what I listed was a method to achieve a goal. What you listed was a goal, without any suggestion of method.


Actually, I have made quite a few suggestions in that vein throughout the years, in various threads (as you might remember) as well as in some private communication with the WM.

And regarding the "method" you suggested "to achieve a goal", we have seen that too, here. The outcome - one honourable member got some warning points for providing a list of threads another member had opened and was p****d off, but the one with the "bad member sticker" didn't change her attitude - has IMO pretty much disqualified it as a successful approach. IIRC this was also the beginning of the decline of one thitherto most successful attempt of establishing "quality" - the GOT. Thus, I don't think it would work this time...


----------



## Ermundo

I see that you all are having fun but ..

I would like to post some more. It's just that well life issues are getting in the way and that now that the movies are over (I'm feel really bad saying this) I'm not that much into it all as I was (I still love LOTR and Tolkiens works)

There are some things I'm not pround to have said in life but the need came


----------



## Ermundo

Oh yeah

Walter, you should get an Avatar.


----------



## HLGStrider

I'm not going to turn this thread into a rehash of old arguements and ridiculous prejudices, so unless it returns to a semblence of a decent topic, I'm ignoring it.


----------



## Bethelarien

TTF won't "die" ever, or at least not for a very long time.

The reason I left was initially because MERPG was started. I'm a role-player. Thus, I follow the RPGs. I'm not hugely into book discussion, though I have been known to debate (and kick some booty).

When MERPG was reabsorbed, I found that the worthwhile RPGs disappeared. Disappointed, I left. The only thread I found of real value (The Mustering of the Pack) has found a new home on my website.

There are no Anilysaths to keep me entertained and (IC) in love, no demanding criteria for Chronicles to enrage me, no Pack to keep me thinking (at least not here). So, for me, there is nothing to draw me back to TTF.

The only reason I'm here right now is because I'm incredibly bored. And I'm hoping someone will want to start another debate. Other than that, I really couldn't care less.


----------



## Arvedui

To quote Ciryaher:
"Is it that time of year again?"

Why bother? The post count will remain at TTF. Final. I have lost count on how many times this discussion has emerged since I first came along, and I used to have strong feelings about this. But now I just don't care anymore. And I do think that my posts have mainly been in the "core part" of TTF, but feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Declining participation?
Well, people find other interests. Or they get commited elsewhere. The answer can be found in the works of JRRT: It is free will!

So why bother about the ones that aren't participating? Why not concentrate on ones own participation? After all, that is the only thing that each and everyone can do something about.


----------



## Aulë

Some things on this forum never change...
And Elgee always seems to be in the centre of this particular argument... 

Let sleeping dogs lie, people. Otherwise we'll just end up hating each other, with the usual name calling and puffed-out banter, and forcing WM to make a rare appearance to tell us all that nothing will change. Of course, the members who feel that they were done hard done by will leave the forum for a few months, leading back to the _original_ topic of this thread.


----------



## DGoeij

Élhendi said:


> To quote Ciryaher:
> "Is it that time of year again?"



I'm pretty sure some newspaper article I read this week mentioned that the 23rd of January is believed to be the most depressing day of the year. (as it combined the failed attempts of people to stop smoking/drinking/eating too much/biting fingernails/other bad habits since they started at the first day of the new year, the lack of sunshine on the northern hemispere, bad weather etc.)

That would explain some of it.


----------



## Walter

DGoeij said:


> I'm pretty sure some newspaper article I read this week mentioned that the 23rd of January is believed to be the most depressing day of the year.


Yeah, I guess I should change my nick to Marvin next week...


----------



## Lhunithiliel

HLGStrider said:


> I'm not going to turn this thread into a rehash of old arguements and ridiculous prejudices, so *unless it returns to a semblence of a decent topic, I'm ignoring it.*


Please, don't ignore it!
You could, instead, show us the way there ... to the "_decent topic_", that is!
Or I, for one, shall forever remain _"ridiculously prejudiced"_!

*Edit*: Hey, where's my over 3000 posts' party?!


----------



## Aulë

Lhunithiliel said:


> Please, don't ignore it!
> You could, instead, show us the way there ... to the "_decent topic_", that is!
> Or I, for one, shall forever remain _"ridiculously prejudiced"_!
> 
> *Edit*: Hey, where's my over 3000 posts' party?!


 
Yes Elgee, I wouldn't mind seeing a decent topic from you for once. As much as I like to know who the Cat of the Day is, I actually come to this board to discuss Tolkien.

And my post count seems to be decreasing! I must complain loudly about it and post useless **** to bring it back to normal...


----------



## Wonko The Sane

Oh, Aulë. You make me laugh, you silly, naughty Aussie.

*goes to watch Neighbours, chuckling to herself*

As to why everyone seems to have left it's probably the lack of movie hype. We all knew this would happen. As to why I left I've had a lot to do, and I haven't really wanted to get embroiled in the level of addiction to the internet I previously was into.

I think the fact that my job is pathetic and I'm often skiving and home alone for most of the day has something to do with why I started posting again, but also I'm reading LotR again, and actually reading the letters, and some of HoME which I'd not gotten into before. I think because I'm delving deeper into Tolkien than I had previously I'm more interested in posting.

Oh, and if anybody here has a son named Ben, recently married and expecting a baby in about 6 months, who works in a health club in North London "Hi!!!"

*recently learned that a co-worker's mum was a huge Tolkien fan*


----------



## Halasían

Walter said:


> .... What I really did like, when I first joined TTF was that there were quite some enthusiasts, who not only liked the works of the late Professor, but also were willing to study them thoroughly and make - what I use to call - "quality contributions". But soon others - who seemed mostly interested in chit-chat and whatnot else - came and (ab-)used this place as a stage for their "personality affairs", making post over post and opening thread over thread that weren't even remotely related to the main focus of this place. And I got the impression that Tolkien's works were only of marginal interest to many of them.
> 
> Pretty soon the postcounts became an issue, I remember the time when Grond - the one with the highest post count then and some 90+ percent of his posts Tolkien-related and highly competent - was "overtaken" by some other members with some 90+ percent of their posts of questionable value, and only a very small number of their posts remotely related to the main topic of TTF.
> 
> It was by that time, IIRC, that the staff began to give the issue of the postcounts some consideration and making some restrictions, and about that time Ancalagon came up with his signature "quality not quantity". But whatever was tried, it did not work to bring the main focus back to "quality" regarding Tolkien and his legendarium...
> 
> Both groups grew during the time of the movie hype, and while TTF was big and strong it seemed not a major problem. But now - in its aftermath - it seems that only a very few of the Tolkien aficionados remained "faithful" to TTF, the rest abandoned the place, whatever the reasons were.
> 
> And now, it appears, most of the traffic happens in the chit-chat areas, the Harry Potter and the Starwars sections, etc., whereas the hardcore-Tolkien sections get little attention. Consequently "quality posts" in these sections are becoming rare and I wonder what could be done to mend that.



I think the reasons many 'Tolkien aficionados' abandoned this, and many other supposedly Tolkien-based sites is because of the 'chit-chat', personality affairs, the postcount, religion, & politics arguments, and other non-Tolkien faire. I'm not interested in Harry Potter, I'm not interested in Narnia, and as for StarWars there are many other places t get immersed in it. When I come to a place called *The Tolkien Forum* I expect it to be Tolkien centered. The reason so many have gone is they found other Tolkien webplaces that don't have so many arguments, are moderated differently, or maybe don't have postcounts. Its too bad too. What basicly ended my serious Tolkien discussions here was when a mod edited my post to say what they wanted it to say. I guess I never recovered from that.

I do hope the aficionados return someday, and may this place be one that remains after the great shaking out of Tolkien sites on the web is done, for I think the look and feel of this place is superior to many other Tolkien sites. Anyway, not wanting to make anyone mad, I wil leave it at that.

Hey Wonko! Good to see ya!


----------



## HLGStrider

Interupts her not involveness for someone who has a point that actually deserves being addressed. . .

I am sorry about the incident with the mod, though I don't know the situation. I would have addressed the concern to WM. Did you?

Anyways, we have often had the debate over whether the Tolkien forum must be a total Tolkien or rather off topic should be allowed. I will argue everytime that if we are to be a _community _rather than a large Tolkien dictionary, we need to allow for an environment where other things can be discussed. Now we eventually decided that some things were too controversial to be discussed, but I think allowing other literature to be taken into this forum is a great thing. That's why I asked WM to set aside the space that is now the Green Dragon. Dividing it up into sub forums to avoid repeat conversations was I think Ithy's idea, but I think it is neater and encourages conversations that were already occuring to occur in a confined space. 

Related topics had dozens upon dozens of threads devoted to other fantasy books and series. I ought to know. I spent about four evenings after work this summer moving items from Related Topics to the new Green Dragon section. Obviously a desire for these discussions has always existed. 

When we get into "banning" them, we get into a game of "values" where people go back and forth about what is "good enough" to deserve a place on the forum. After all RPG's are hardly related to Tolkien at all, but you can make an arguement that Tolkien is the father of modern fantasy so any fantasy novel written since him is related to him. But wait! Good RP's can be based very much off of Tolkien and what in the heck does dumb old Harry Potter have to do with sacred Tolkien? 

And what about the Prancing Pony? After all, Tolkien wrote and I want to show off my creativity. Ok, but only if it is fanfic? Ok, but only if it is in the same genre? Ok, but only if it isn't real world real time. . .

It's a mess. I know I can be pretty libertarian about discussions. I like a free exchange of ideas, and maybe I'm an extreme, but let's not cut ourselves down to nothing.


----------



## Wonko The Sane

I'm a bit confused, Elgee. What definition are you using for the word 'libertarian'?


----------



## e.Blackstar

*gets out the popcorn and sits in her lawnchair to watch the fireworks*


----------



## HLGStrider

Wonko The Sane said:


> I'm a bit confused, Elgee. What definition are you using for the word 'libertarian'?


 
Meaning free from government restrictions, or in this case moderator restrictions. I'm not saying this is official policy because in the case of Religion and Politics and getting to be post counts it obviously isn't, but it is my personal philosophy and my posting philosophy. If I don't like a conversation or a topic being discussed I will simply ignore it, unless it violates the current standards set by WM or if it is beyond the PG-13 level we have set for this forum (no pervie hobbit fancying, I guess. . .).

I think it is better served to ignore a thread you don't think has value rather than to make a fuss out of it. If you ignore a thread it usually dies after a day or two.


----------



## Lhunithiliel

*Re: libertarian*

*LIBRETARIAN *



HLGStrider said:


> Meaning free from government restrictions, or in this case moderator restrictions. I'm not saying this is official policy because in the case of Religion and Politics and getting to be post counts it obviously isn't, but it is my personal philosophy and my posting philosophy. If I don't like a conversation or a topic being discussed I will simply ignore it, unless it violates the current standards set by WM or if it is beyond the PG-13 level we have set for this forum (no pervie hobbit fancying, I guess. . .).
> 
> I think it is better served to ignore a thread you don't think has value rather than to make a fuss out of it. If you ignore a thread it usually dies after a day or two.



I seldom read such high-level cynicism, but ... what do I care?!  

* * * 


*Wonks*, great to see you around! And great news about you and that bad ol' Orc!


----------



## Hammersmith

Silvanis said:


> I think the reasons many 'Tolkien aficionados' abandoned this, and many other supposedly Tolkien-based sites is because of the 'chit-chat', personality affairs, the postcount, religion, & politics arguments, and other non-Tolkien faire.


In other words, post nothing without walter's or your express approval in triplicate. Got it.


----------



## Walter

Silvanis said:


> What basicly ended my serious Tolkien discussions here was when a mod edited my post to say what they wanted it to say. I guess I never recovered from that.


That habit has annoyed me - to say the very least - more than once on TTF. Though Ithrynluin recently assured me the policy has changed and moderators don't do that anymore...



HLG said:


> When we get into "banning" them, we get into a game of "values" where people go back and forth about what is "good enough" to deserve a place on the forum.


It's not about banning. It's about encouraging on-topic (=Tolkien-related) contributions rather than providing a stage for the practising Narcissa or Samwise Cynicus...


----------



## Ermundo

If I send anything to offend anyone earlier I am terribly sorry.

Or am I

Mwa ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaa

(Just a joke)


----------



## GuardianRanger

DGoeij said:


> I'm pretty sure some newspaper article I read this week mentioned that the 23rd of January is believed to be the most depressing day of the year. (as it combined the failed attempts of people to stop smoking/drinking/eating too much/biting fingernails/other bad habits since they started at the first day of the new year, the lack of sunshine on the northern hemispere, bad weather etc.)
> 
> That would explain some of it.



I've heard that too...
You can also add that this is the week that typically holiday bills become due.


----------



## Wonko The Sane

I don't think that people are stupid enough to leave TTF because their rubbish posts don't count any more, but you never know.

I think that because many of the previously active members were young they've grown up a bit in the past few years and found other interests or places to spend their time. Many of them have gone to Uni.

I know that for myself at least I've gotten over the compulsion to post rubbish. Well, the compulsion to post off-topic rubbish as well. I still seem to be posting Tolkien related rubbish in large quantities lately.


----------



## Wolfshead

Walter said:


> That habit has annoyed me - to say the very least - more than once on TTF. Though Ithrynluin recently assured me the policy has changed and moderators don't do that anymore...


That's more than slightly worrying. I wasn't previously aware that happened. How could it have been policy to edit members posts to change their meaning? And in what sort of circumstance did that become apparent?


Wonks said:


> I think that because many of the previously active members were young they've grown up a bit in the past few years and found other interests or places to spend their time. Many of them have gone to Uni.


That's a very good point actually, and I hadn't considered it before. I was 15 when I first joined this forum (after having been on WM's Tolkien email discussion list for a long time). I'm 19 now and gone to university, and am somewhat more mature than I was way back then. No more do I help pollute this place (well, not much  ) with pages and pages of inane drivel, whether it be random off-topic stuff, or silly rpgs. I imagine there will be a host of other people who joined around the same time with their imaginations having being sparked by the films who have now gone onto bigger and, not necessarily, better things. And while I don't wish to tar everyone with the same brush, but I for one don't miss all the Legolas and Frodo fan-girls


----------



## Wonko The Sane

Wolfshead said:


> And while I don't wish to tar everyone with the same brush, but I for one don't miss all the Legolas and Frodo fan-girls



There were a substantial portion of our members who were fan-girls. Now that there aren't any movies to ogle over they've gone on to Pirates of the Carribean or something.


----------



## Elbereth

I actually kind of miss those fan-girls...they were fun to tease. One mention of Legolas sucks...and they flew into a tizzy...it was hilarious. 

On a more serious note...

If you all think about it, the forum hasn't slowed...rather it has lost the frantic posting that had become the norm during the height of the forum. It was crazy during that time. 

I remember when I first joined I could post something once a week and still be able to come back to it the next week. But during the height...I would post something one day...it was a struggle to respond because so many had posted ahead of me. That environment really forced many of us to be addicted to the forum. At least it did for me. 

Now that it has slowed...I don't feel the need to have to check to see if someone responded to my posts, I know most probably they didn't. Not a big deal...so I move on to bigger and better things. 

(PS...Wonks, I like your new avatar...it sort of look like me in real life, that is if I had more body to my hair...cheers!)


----------



## DGoeij

Elbereth said:


> If you all think about it, the forum hasn't slowed...rather it has lost the frantic posting that had become the norm during the height of the forum. It was crazy during that time.
> 
> I remember when I first joined I could post something once a week and still be able to come back to it the next week. But during the height...I would post something one day...it was a struggle to respond because so many had posted ahead of me. That environment really forced many of us to be addicted to the forum. At least it did for me.
> 
> Now that it has slowed...I don't feel the need to have to check to see if someone responded to my posts, I know most probably they didn't. Not a big deal...so I move on to bigger and better things.



That is actually quite true for me too. Combined with the 'growing up' that Wonks mentioned, I think it sums up the reasons I somewhat slipped away from TTF. I still hardly manage to visit it every week, but now at least I do not have to read over 10 posts in every thread I visited (let alone responded to) just days before.

Although growing up..... In 2000 I was a flunked chemistry student of 20 years old, switching to the social sciences and today I'm into the Safety and Security education. I couldn't keep up in Uni actually, at the age of 25 I finally realised I'm not that much of an academic after all.  

But you could say I grew up, some....


----------



## Aulë

Hmmm, yes. I remember that when I joined this forum it was a hive of activity. As I joined during the peak of the forum's history, I never got to see what you veterans decribe as "normal" before the movies came out. So this slowed pace is a new thing for some of us. 

As Elbe said, it is probably a good thing that it has slowed; I know that I for one spent a little bit more time than I should have on this site back in the day. There are some negative aspects to this slowed pace however - things such as RPGs, Guilds and debating competitions are virtually non-existant on this site now.

Oh well - maybe we'll get another taste of the forum rushes when The Hobbit comes out.


----------



## Elbereth

DGoeij said:


> But you could say I grew up, some....



Well, as for me...I don't think I grew up at all. Hehehe...

The only difference now...life changes (new job, new friends, I'm actually in a serious relationship - who would've guessed) All changes have kept me from reading my big ol'Tolkien books.


----------



## HLGStrider

I'm on here less than I used to be for a very specific reason. I have dial up so whenever I use the internet at home it blocks the phone line. My boyfriend is in Iraq and I'm paranoid of missing a phone call. I still keep up at work, but at home I am terrified of him getting a busy signal after standing in line for who knows how long to get to the phone. . .

but I don't think that many people were noticing my lack of activity anyway.

And an Elgee's lack of activity may be a busy streak for everyone else. I am still a post demon.


----------



## Halasían

I noticed this trend on all the Tolkien boards I visit. Some are wondering how th re-invent themselves and are "de-Tolkienizing" some to accomidate other fantasy authors and such. me, I thnk its just a healthy burnout, where the true Tolkien lovers will remain, and in time will discuss things of the books again. But there has seemed to have been a burnout on Tolkien after the movie rush of a few years ago.


----------



## Mike

> I was 15 when I first joined this forum (after having been on WM's Tolkien email discussion list for a long time). I'm 19 now and gone to university, and am somewhat more mature than I was way back then.


 
I was 15 when I joined this forum as well, and am too in my first year of University. But being an arts student means I actually still have a lot of free time on my hands...

My theory, though I obviously can't remember the pre-movie forum, is that the inrush of fan-boys and fan-girls drove away some people who wanted to talk about Tolkien, and when they left for the next movie craze the forum was short of them and many book-lovers who had been there before the craze began.

I actually like the forums more, now that they're slower. Don't have to read any posts by people who hadn't read the books and had only seen the films: the worst being those pretending to have read the books when they obviously hadn't. (i.e. "where in LOTR does it ever say Sting ever glows blue?"--paraphrase of an actual post). Plus I don't have the time to visit this site every day anymore--back when I was 15, this is where I went 4/5 days spent in drafting class.

The forum slow-down suits me just fine.


----------



## Varokhâr

It reminds me of the chatroom at www.theonering.net which I had joined just before FOTR came out. It was a quiet, slow chat where people who actually had knowledge of Tolkien's works came to talk. It got insanely busy as the movies rolled on, with all the fanboys and fangirls jumping the bandwagon.

Now it too is quieter and going back to normal. I look forward to the same here


----------



## Narsil

Interesting thread. I joined in '03 just as _The Two Towers_ came out in the movies and TTF seemed to be at it's height. The debates between the FADS and Purists regarding the movies were often vicious and compelling and there was always a good thread about the books to be found. I read the books just after TTT came out so basically I found all the discussions about the books vs. the movies very interesting. 

However, as to be expected within a year of the release of the extended version of ROTK the activity on this forum died down. It was to be expected because a good many people were here due to the movies. So a lot of people left (what happened to Mrs. Maggott  ?) because they were primarily interested in the movies, not Tolkien's actual writings. 

As for myself, I've gone on to read _The Silmarillion_, _Unfinished Tales_ and reread the trilogy and _The Hobbit_ so the interest in Tolkien's works still remains but in general my participation in online forums in general has waned. Mostly it's due to a lot of other things in my life and also because I've discovered online RP games such as _World of Warcraft_, which IMO is strongly influenced by Tolkien and I have gone on to name each of my characters after someone in Tolkien's books.  So basically my participation in online forums has declined in general, especially during the warmer months from April-October, when I'm not on my computer all that much in general. 

However I often come here to read, especially now that colder weather has set in and I'm home more. There's a wealth of info here that's just a click of the "search" button away. I find it very relaxing and informative to just sit and search thru all the informative back posts. I've just finished rereading the Trilogy and UT and part of the The Sil I will tend to drop in more often and occasionally I'll put my .02 cents in. 

As for the post counts, I belong to quite a few forums that limit post counts to posts that actually adhere only to certain forum topics. On my automotive forum only posts that are technical in nature contribute to your post count and everyone there seems to accept that without any problems. It's done to cut down on nonsense posts that are done only to increase post counts and serve no real purpose. IMO it makes a lot of sense in a dedicated forum such as this one.  

BTW, I also like the sections devoted to C.S. Lewis, _Harry Potter_ etc, mainly because I've read those books and find it interesting to get the perspective of those who have read and love Tolkien on those topics as well. The more the merrier and you can always choose to skip won't you don't like or doesn't interest you.


----------



## Maeglin

I joined the forum during the summer of 2002, right before the FOTR movie came out, but oddly enough when I found the site, the movie hadn't even crossed my mind. Sure I was excited about it and looking forward to it, but I didn't even post in any of the movie threads until about 2 years later, and that was only maybe 10 posts at the most, to discuss the relese of ROK. So when everything died down it was kind of a shock to me, as the whole movie rush on the forum hadn't occurred to me and I thought it was just a real active, fun place to discuss Tolkien's writing. In hindsight, it is quite obvious that a big part of why the book forums were so active for the first couple years I was here is because of all the fanboys/fangirls who would post in the book forums without much knowledge of the books, which in a way was nice because it gave those of us who have read the books something to post about, since we weren't asking each other obvious questions that are answered right there on the pages of LOTR. But anyway...most of the longtime members seem to be like myself, just lurking in the shadows watching the activity, and if anyone posts something new of interest, we jump all over it. 

Who knows, maybe 3 years from now we'll get a big rush with the release of the Hobbit movie, which I can't say would be entirely unwelcome if this forum is still around.


----------



## Narsil

Maeglin said:


> IIn hindsight, it is quite obvious that a big part of why the book forums were so active for the first couple years I was here is because of all the fanboys/fangirls who would post in the book forums without much knowledge of the books



Actually I think the book forums were active because due to the release of the films I think that a lot of people (myself included) saw the movies and were then compelled to read the books, which brought them to the book forums. Basically the movies generated a whole new group of avid Tolkien readers and affectionados, along with the fan boys/girls. 

But now the dust has settled somewhat and things have slowed down here. Many forums go thru highs and lows so I don't find it to be a problem. I'm sure if there is a release of _The Hobbit_ in movie form we'll get another wave of people joining and contributing.


----------



## HLGStrider

I did find the forums while searching for information about the movies. I was very new to this whole internet thing and while understood the concept of searching for information on websites (like who was the movies, when they would be coming out) I didn't know about being able to post my own stuff on message boards. 

So for me the excitement was "ooh, internet thing" rather than "ooh Tolkien." Tolkien I already knew about. Talking about Tolkien on the internet, that was new and shiney.


----------

