# Alternative routes to Mordor



## Rivendell_librarian (Aug 19, 2018)

The journey from Rivendell to Mordor is framed as via Moria, the pass of Caradhras or the Gap of Rohan. They each have their own dangers (compare Homer's Odyssey!)

But why not go by boat down the Greyflood and by sea to one of the coastal settlements of Gondor.

Objection: dependence on Gondor might lead to Gondor taking the ring but with Gandalf still on the team I think the Fellowship would cope.


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## holly13 (Aug 19, 2018)

By the time of the Third Age, that river was very dangerous. In many places along it, if the not whole thing, it had low tide, desolate causeways, and dangerous fords that made it near impossible to pass or sail on. Boromir attempted to cross it and was mounted off the horse, which was killed by the power of it. You mention that they could have gotten off the boats at Gondor, but Tolkien wrote of Boromir's struggle of getting to Rivendell along it and it was impossible - anyone thinking of going along it would have had to abandon it. Logic would dictate that the Fellowship going along it from Rivendell would bring the same problem Boromir faced when he had to abandon it.

I am unable to think of any alternative routes that would have held the plan of getting to Mordor better. Every route would bring it's own problems but I think Frodo and Sam inadvertently picked the right way. The original plan was to go the way Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli went, encountering Rohan etc. on the way. But in fact, by going off on their own and then having Gollum to be their guide (who knew every single short cut that no-one else would of), Frodo and Sam found a better and far less noticeable way that probably meant they took even less time to make it.


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## Rivendell_librarian (Aug 19, 2018)

Thank you holly13 for such a well thought out answer. 

I've often wondered why the map of the Lord of the Rings shows no haven at the mouth of the Greyflood (Gwathlo) but apparently there was one (Lond Daer) in the Second Age but this had disappeared by the time of the Fellowship of the Ring - so nowhere to hire sea-going craft even if they had navigated the Greyflood to its mouth.

Travelling overland through Enedwaith would be a long journey through a largely deserted land and they would still need to ford the Isen west of Isengard - and so no supplies of food etc from Lorien. They would still be vulnerable to Saruman's Uruk-hai.

Yes I agree - the route Sam and Frodo took was probably the best - thanks to Gollum who plays such a key role in the LOTR.


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## holly13 (Aug 20, 2018)

Rivendell_librarian said:


> Thank you holly13 for such a well thought out answer.
> 
> I've often wondered why the map of the Lord of the Rings shows no haven at the mouth of the Greyflood (Gwathlo) but apparently there was one (Lond Daer) in the Second Age but this had disappeared by the time of the Fellowship of the Ring - so nowhere to hire sea-going craft even if they had navigated the Greyflood to its mouth.
> 
> ...



Thank you!

I need to clarify what I meant when I spoke of an original plan of going through Rohan because the Fellowship actually had no plan of action. It was simply the route Frodo and Sam would have ended up taking should they have never left the Fellowship and went with Aragorn. Even Aragorn simply ended up in Rohan when he was in pursuit of Merry and Pippin.

I think it's curious they had no route in mind. Elrond's advice for them at the Council of Elrond was to wing it because every route had it's dangers and they would need to think on their feet, and that's what they wound up doing. Gandalf simply wanted to get to Lothlorien. But it implies that when they set off, other than the one they took, none of the other routes on the path would be suitable enough even from the very beginning.

I have thought of whether they could have headed West from Rivendell and then borrowed a ship from Cirdan, and then navigated the Gulf of Lhún and round to the Bay of Belfalas but then that was invaded by the Corsairs of Umbar. Simply put, I don't think any alternative was route was good enough.

The one everyone fell on was simply the right one. Frodo and Sam found Gollum who knew the best route possible and the one that would take less time, which was pivotal. Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli and co had to save Rohan and Gondor otherwise Frodo's efforts would be in vain because he would have had far less to save.


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## Deleted member 12094 (Aug 21, 2018)

There was yet another route. At least theoretically, they could have used the service of the eagles to fly straight to Mount Doom.

It has always annoyed me, that this option was not considered and dismissed at Elrond’s council!


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## holly13 (Aug 21, 2018)

Merroe said:


> There was yet another route. At least theoretically, they could have used the service of the eagles to fly straight to Mount Doom.
> 
> It has always annoyed me, that this option was not considered and dismissed at Elrond’s council!



I was wondering when someone was going to bring the Eagles up, but I'm not a supporter of the theory! I have times (not today) when people bring it up and I kinda get annoyed they think it's an option  and I think - need ... to ... debuke, sorry!

To begin with, Sauron has spies across Middle-Earth and he would have noticed the Eagles coming from miles away. Sauron would have had many orcs trying to get the Eagles down with arrows and he would send the Nazgul on Fell Beasts. The One Ring was bound to be dropped and every Eagle will be bound to be killed. And they would need a doomed passenger to actually go and throw the Ring to it's destruction, since the Eagles would be too large to get in (and by the time they get to it, the place was bound to be guarded). Sauron would know exactly what they would be up to and that's a huge fail immediately! 

The Council of Elrond never brought the Eagles up because they knew they would be sending them on a suicide mission for a goal they would never achieve, and it's selfish to even consider it or ask. They needed a roundabout plan that kept the Fellowship quiet and would enable them to sneak around better (hence why the Hobbits became so important), and that kind of a plan would minimise any potential risks that would throw the whole thing in jeopardy. Gollum was pivotal for finding these short cuts only he knew of.

The Eagles were proud and powerful sentience beings. Gandalf befriended them because he saved one from a poisoned arrow (which proves that they can be taken down by such simple weapons). But they don't jump at anything Gandalf wants them to do. They don't serve anyone except the Valar. And even if they made an offer to take it, I doubt anyone would let them. It's too dangerous.

And they would not be above and immune to the power of the One Ring. The One Ring appears to have an affect on powerful beings that makes Gollum look perfectly sane. Gandalf would never take the Ring. Galadriel had a crazy moment. But the Hobbits had a goodness and innocence that would better defend them from the power of the object for longer. Frodo managed to take Sauron completely off guard, and that was half the battle needed to succeed. Gandalf mentioned many times that the location of the Ring needed to be kept from Sauron.

Short answer - the Eagles would be a huge beacon saying "the One Ring's heading right in front of you, come and get it Sauron!" and the Eagles would be doomed.


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## Rivendell_librarian (Aug 21, 2018)

Also the Eagles are wild creatures and they determine what they do or don't do - rather like Ents.


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## Deleted member 12094 (Aug 21, 2018)

Very appreciated are your reactions! Thanks for attention.

It is a discussion forum here, so, … allow me to respectfully disagree with some stuff about the eagles and their usefulness first (it was not really my main point, but that comes below).

The eagles are too underrated in your reactions. The house of Elrond held respecting contact with them whenever needed. That was well followed up by due action on their side too. They intervened in several known battlefields at great risk yet with significant effect.

Here are examples of all this:

In TH they brought the entire company of Thorin to safety:

_Tonight the Lord of the Eagles was filled with curiosity to know what was afoot; so he summoned many other eagles to him and they flew away from the mountains, and slowly circling ever round and round they came down, down, down towards the ring of the wolves and the meeting-place of the goblins. [etc]_​
Their very important intervention at the battle of 5 armies:​
_The eagles were coming down the wind, line after line, in such a host as must have gathered from all the eyries of the North._​
At the time when spying was in much need (LotR) about where the black riders might have gone to:​
_In no region had the messengers discovered any signs or tidings of the Riders or other servants of the Enemy. Even from the Eagles of the Misty Mountains they had learned no fresh news._​
Upon Gandalf’s unfortunate visit to Isengard:​
_And the Eagles of the Mountains went far and wide, and they saw many things: the gathering of wolves and the mustering of Orcs; and the Nine Riders going hither and thither in the lands; and they heard news of the escape of Gollum. And they sent a messenger to bring these tidings to me._​
As mentioned earlier the eagles freed Gandalf.​
Gandalf’s discussion to Aragorn, showing information the eagles provided:​
_“The Eagles report that Orcs are gathering again from afar; but there is a hope that Moria is still free”._​
Their massive attack at the Morannon:​
_There came Gwaihir the Windlord, and Landroval his brother, greatest of all the Eagles of the North, mightiest of the descendants of old Thorondor, who built his eyries in the inaccessible peaks of the Encircling Mountains when Middle-earth was young. Behind them in long swift lines came all their vassals from the northern mountains, speeding on a gathering wind. Straight down upon the Nazgûl they bore, stooping suddenly out of the high airs, and the rush of their wide wings as they passed over was like a gale._​
Support they gave too, to get the two hobbits out of Mordor again:​
_‘Twice you have borne me, Gwaihir my friend,’ said Gandalf. ‘Thrice shall pay for all, if you are willing. You will not find me a burden much greater than when you bore me from Zirakzigil, where my old life burned away.’_​
_‘I would bear you,’ answered Gwaihir, ‘whither you will, even were you made of stone’._​
One more thought about the arguments against eagles flying to Mount doom (that being more dangerous, really?): our beloved Fellowship was sent to a near suicidal mission none the same and their journey lead them close to their ruin (losing two of their fellows on their way). The option was no less dangerous all the way, as far as I can personally see. Nor is it likely that spies could dispatch info faster than those eagles could fly.

Yet that was not my main point in my previous message (and I apologize for possible confusion; English is not my mother tongue).

My previous main point was:

at the Council of Elrond all options were duly considered: the throwing-in-the-ocean option, the impossible-destruction one, the Tom-Bombadil one, the Boromir-use-it-in-Gondor one, the keep-it-somewhere-save one…
yet, the eagles option remained undiscussed there.
It somehow feels like JRRT overlooked it until at least after his 2 first books (and TH of course) were already published.

Please … arguments like _“The Council of Elrond never brought the Eagles up because they knew [etc]”_ evade true fact-finding and cannot be answered reasonably. Let us stick to firm book references for those willing to react and for which I’d be most grateful.

PS – mentioning the eagles-option seems to raise some euh...! Look at a previous older tread if you wish so here: like - someone on the back of the eagle using the Ring!? An eagle going alone!? I won't classify, but, yeah.


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## holly13 (Aug 21, 2018)

Merroe said:


> Very appreciated are your reactions! Thanks for attention.
> 
> It is a discussion forum here, so, … allow me to respectfully disagree with some stuff about the eagles and their usefulness first (it was not really my main point, but that comes below).
> 
> ...



When it comes to Tolkien (or any kind of book), I would not depend solely on what was written for an explanation, because you will not find one in many cases. Take what you should be able find and then infer what you may. They never mentioned the Eagles at the Council of Elrond, and you may infer many explanations for why, provided it's not completely out of context.

The people of Middle-Earth (and Tolkien) held the Eagles in high esteem. Bear in mind, they never even asked Frodo to take the One Ring. To place that burden on any being was too much of an ask. To call the Eagles and ask them to carry such an evil dangerous, well sought out object of incredible power that will play mind games on you when you bear it - not a thing you call someone over and simply say, would you mind taking it? Everyone was shocked when Frodo made the offer to take it, because not even they would have signed up for that job!

I will accept one thing - perhaps the Eagles should have been invited to the Council or perhaps that should have been brought up at the Council. But any mention of the Eagles taking it should and would have been debunked.

In your words, you seem to think that the Eagles flying over to Mordor would take simply an hour, no problem and Sauron would think, oh look a bird in the sky. As though Scotty would be able to beam them up to the Enterprise, travel at warp speed and then beam them right down into Mordor, and along with Frodo no doubt.

Sauron's spies lay in many, many places and the spies and army would be on guard at every moment. He wouldn't dispatch anyone only when he think he sees something coming. Saruman even had his own birds flying around. Saruman (who had one Palantír) and Sauron (who had the another) would know one way or the other from miles away about the Eagles. And even if the Eagles managed to get close to Mordor in good time unnoticed, it would take Sauron very little time to get those archers and Nazgul out, whether he knew they had the One Ring or not.

And case in point - the Eagles had a fear of arrows. In The Hobbit, they had a problem with flying too close to the shepherds with arrows. Gandalf saved one from a poisoned arrow. He knew no doubt of that fact and problem at the Council of Elrond.

Gandalf again and again highlighted the need for complete, absolute privacy when travelling with the One Ring. The location of the One Ring at any point in the journey should never be made to Sauron, even when in Mordor. He needed to be taken by complete surprise, by someone so small, so unimportant, so seemingly powerless, he would never, ever suspect them or even see them coming. The Eagles would be far from such a thing. They would be acting completely out of character.

So yeah, you will find the Eagles posed an even higher, immediate danger to the destruction of the One Ring. Perils lay in the way for Frodo but he had a much better chance as opposed to going with the Eagles. He might well have had a megaphone taunting Sauron as he flew closer. And how certain would you be that powerful beings such as the Eagles, would never have been affected by the power of the One Ring? Even Tolkien called them "a dangerous machine".


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## Deleted member 12094 (Aug 21, 2018)

waw holly13: An unsettling subject, indeed! But that's ok. Controversy is right in these discussions. Like this!

I quite agree that my reflection is more than unsettling but it won't keep me away from loving JRRT literature immensely. And since this is an open forum, I'll keep my earlier reflection here, for now.

Your only reference to literature was the following:



holly13 said:


> Even Tolkien called them "a dangerous machine".



I failed to find that!? Even though it matters little in this subject, I'd be glad with a reference. I vaguely remember I heard that somewhere... but where, please?


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## holly13 (Aug 21, 2018)

Merroe said:


> waw holly13: An unsettling subject, indeed! But that's ok. Controversy is right in these discussions. Like this!
> 
> I quite agree that my reflection is more than unsettling but it won't keep me away from loving JRRT literature immensely. And since this is an open forum, I'll keep my earlier reflection here, for now.
> 
> ...



It's from Letter 210 

Don't get me wrong, I love when people quote Tolkien! - and he wrote that much that it helps out when I need to find a source and I have forgotten something. But I do think he left a lot up for interpretation and I love working with what he wrote to try and find a plausible answer to the many things we may never know. I'm very happy when I can these kind of friendly discussions about my favourite subject with someone of an opposite opinion.


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## Rivendell_librarian (Aug 21, 2018)

I've just come across letter 210 in this regard as well. This was a response from JRR Tolkien to a film script by Morton Grady Zimmerman (Z) et al. 

After describing the eagles as a "dangerous machine" (i.e. literary device I believe) Tolkien says he has used them "sparingly". Tolkien also objected to Z contracting time in his scheme and to Z introducing the Eagles for the journey south after the Council of Elrond describing it as "unacceptable tampering". Tolkien seems to prefer to use the Eagles when they are "really needed" e.g. when rescuing Frodo and Sam after the eruption of Mount Doom.


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## holly13 (Aug 22, 2018)

Rivendell_librarian said:


> I've just come across letter 210 in this regard as well. This was a response from JRR Tolkien to a film script by Morton Grady Zimmerman (Z) et al.
> 
> After describing the eagles as a "dangerous machine" (i.e. literary device I believe) Tolkien says he has used them "sparingly". Tolkien also objected to Z contracting time in his scheme and to Z introducing the Eagles for the journey south after the Council of Elrond describing it as "unacceptable tampering". Tolkien seems to prefer to use the Eagles when they are "really needed" e.g. when rescuing Frodo and Sam after the eruption of Mount Doom.



I love Tolkien's letters about Zimmerman. He certainly hated everything he done with the film! But that's another point I was going to make about the Eagles (hence why I brought up the letter). Even Tolkien knew the Eagles should only have a limited role, whether in terms of being a literacy device or whether when you put your mind to it, they should and would ever manage to be a suitable option.


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## Deleted member 12094 (Aug 23, 2018)

holly13 said:


> I'm very happy when I can these kind of friendly discussions about my favourite subject with someone of an opposite opinion.



That was a fine reflection of yours, Holly13!  Who would disagree with you there!?  Loved reading the arguments in your contributions Holly13 and Rivendell_librarian!


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 23, 2018)

holly13 said:


> I love Tolkien's letters about Zimmerman.



I've often thought of posting some of Tolkien's comments, without attribution, in one of the movie threads, just to see the reactions. The "better angels of my nature" have prevailed. So far! 

But I'm holding them in reserve -- they may be needed when the Amazon series starts.


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## BalrogRingDestroyer (Aug 25, 2018)

I think that they made the right choice in going through Moria (though the Redhorn Gate would have worked better). Going the Bilbo route through the High Pass and the Land of the Beornlings would have led to them being in the fight with Mordor's forces that Frodo later saw from that high place by the Anduin River. Not to mention, they'd be too close to Dul Guldor that route anyway. 


As for going with Aragorn, I think that would have been disastrous. Denethor wanted that Ring even more than Boromir and would surely have tried to have it taken by force in Gondor. And who knows what damage it would have done in Rohan.


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## Rivendell_librarian (Sep 4, 2018)

Which shows how remarkable is Faramir's restraint in not taking the ring from Frodo even though he knew something of its significance


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 4, 2018)

Remarkable indeed -- though exactly what we would expect, in the context of romance.

But that would take a long, didactic essay to unpack. Maybe another time. It's a fascinating subject.


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