# 9 Men I want to know.



## RangerStryder (Dec 15, 2008)

3 Rings for the Elven Kings under the sky,
7 for the Dwarf Lords in their halls of stone,
9 for the Mortal Men doomed to die.........etc etc

But who are these 9 men?

Anyone know?


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## windchimes (Dec 15, 2008)

I think this is an interesting question. I seem to remember they were kings. I would like to know more about these kings, who made their rings and who gave them to them.


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## Alcuin (Dec 15, 2008)

I have an on-line essay about the origins of the Witch-king; I’ll let that stand on its own.

Three of the Nazgûl were Númenóreans, including the Witch-king, in all likelihood. Only one of the Nazgûl is named, Khamûl, the Black Easterling. Whether that was his original name in normal life is unknown; he was the second-in-command among the Nazgûl, and it was Khamûl whom Frodo overheard speaking to the Gaffer, and who pursued Frodo, Pippin, and Sam into the Woody End when Gildor and his companions found the hobbits there. 

That accounts for four of the five. 

Iron Crown Enterprises (ICE), which made a Middle-earth role-playing (MERP) game*, has names and biographies for all the Nazgûl, I believe, but those are not only not canonical, they are not even Tolkien’s; however, a number of folks apparently believe that these names and biographies are from Tolkien’s work. 

Tolkien says (through Gandalf) that the Nazgûl were “Mortal Men, proud and great” (_FotR_, “Shadow of the Past”), and I believe that elsewhere, he also writes that they were kings and warriors in their normal lives. The Witch-king had become a great sorcerer, but it is unclear to me whether this was before he received his Ring of Power or afterwards.

You should remember that *the Nine Rings were not made for Men but for Elves.* What Sauron in the guise of Annatar intended to do with them is clear from the Ring-verse: “_Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,_” but certainly the Elven-smiths who made then under his tutelage did not intend that purpose.-|-​* Wikipedia says that ICE lost its license for MERP in 2000, when it “entered bankruptcy and filed for Chapter 7”. That strikes me as an unwise decision on the license-holder, which was probably Tolkien Enterprises rather than Tolkien Estate (the family of JRR Tolkien), since the MERP material is now online.


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## Wolfshead (Dec 15, 2008)

RangerStryder said:


> But who are these 9 men?


My initial thought was that you were being incredibly dense and hadn't made the connection between them and the Nazgul, then I realised it was me being too clever by half (or rather, being an idiot myself). 

I don't know their identity, beyond them being Numenoreans, but rather than take the sensible approach any further I would like to once again propose the theory that the Witch King was infact Tom Bombadil.

On a more serious note, whilst pursuing my folly I chanced upon this old thread which discusses the possible identity of the Witch King in more detail.


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## Prince of Cats (Dec 15, 2008)

Hey, this is a pretty cool thread - I never really thought of expanding on who the Nazgul were beyond being corrupted men ... what were their stories? Now you have me thinking!  



Wolfshead said:


> On a more serious note, whilst pursuing my folly I chanced upon this old thread which discusses the possible identity of the Witch King in more detail.



That's a pretty fun read too


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## Úlairi (Dec 16, 2008)

I thank Wolfshead for bringing up my old thread from the depths of oblivion. However it was a completely futile effort on my part as I was stirring up discussion for discussions sake. Let's take it a little more seriously. 

There is another that it potentially identified. Whilst many disagree with this _theory_ I have a strong _personal_ belief that this indeed was one of the Nazgûl.



> _The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King - The Battle of the Pelennor Fields_
> 
> *There they had mustered for the sack of the City and the rape of Gondor, waiting on the call of their Captain. He was now destroyed; but Gothmog, the lieutenant of Morgul had flung them into the fray...*



After the devastating loss of the Witch-king to Eowyn and Merry the armies of Sauron were bereft of leadership which was then assumed by the cryptogenic _Gothmog_; and no, he was no Balrog.  He is here described as the _Lieutenant of Morgul_ which _could potentially_ *imply* that as the Witch-king's lieutenant; he was one of the Nazgûl. 

*The Identity of the Witch-king: Theory One*​
This has puzzled me greatly for years; and I have a few of my own little pet theories that I was going to elucidate in another thread; but here's not such a bad place to do it either.



> _The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King - Appendix B: The Tale of Years - The Second Age_
> 
> *c. 1800 From about this time onward the Númenoreans begin to establish dominions on the coasts. Sauron extends his power eastwards. The shadow falls on Númenor.
> 2251 Tar-Atanamir takes the sceptre. Rebellion and division of the Númenoreans begins. About this time the Nazgûl, slaves of the Nine Rings, first appear.*





> _The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King - Appendix A - I: The Númenorean Kings - (i): Númenor_
> 
> *The first sign of the shadow that was to fall upon them appeared in the days of Tar-Minastir, eleventh King. ... He loved the Eldar but envied them. ... and the more joyful was their life, the more they began to long for the immortality of the Eldar.
> Moreover, after Minastir the Kings became greedy of wealth and power. ... Atanamir and his successors levied heavy tribute, and the ships of the Númenoreans returned laden with spoil.
> It was Tar-Atanamir who first spoke openly against the Ban and declared that the life of the Eldar was his by right.*





> _The Silmarillion: Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age_
> 
> *Men proved easier to ensnare. Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old. They obtained glory and great wealth...*



_Glory_ and _great wealth_ - _greedy of wealth and power_. The choice of words is interesting and whilst mere conjecture; I am *very* open to the possiblity that the Witch-king was Tar-Minastir, Tar-Ciryatan or Tar-Atanamir. It also states that they began to envy the _*immortality*_ of the Eldar. We all now that one of the inherent mechanisms of the Rings of Power was to prevent _decay_; which conferred abnormally long life upon their bearers if they were Mortal. 



> _Unfinished Tales - III: The Line of Elros: Kings of Númenor_
> 
> *XI Tar-Minastir
> ... For he loved the Eldar but envied them. ... and died in 1873.
> ...



It could be any of the three; but I lean more towards Tar-Atanamir _the Great_ for the obvious reasons that he was considered to be _Great_, an inherent quality conferred by Rings of _Power_; had a _greed for wealth_, was _proud_ and openly spoke against the Valar. He was also clinging to life until the "_end_" of his Days. Now I know you're all going to say: "but they died!"  I consider this to be a moot point (as I have a _little_ imagination in my employ). These Men craved immortality and what better way to seduce them than with _Rings of Power_ that would guarantee a *limitless extension* of their lives. These Men may have for all intents and purposes have _died_ - but _dying_ can mean many things in various contexts. Sauron was also known for his abilities in Necromancy so it may be possible that he utilized this knowledge to his benefit in the acquisition of a Númenorean King. What better a slave?

We know the Úlairi appeared first around 2251. This is why I'm leaning more toward the possibility that it was Tar-Atanamir the Great; however if his two predecessors (as candidates for the identity of the Witch-king) had become ensnared by one of the Nine Rings and had _died_ in the figurative sense then they are also possibilities. They desired long life, greed, wealth, power and glory.



> _The Silmarillion: Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age_
> 
> *Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day ... They obtained glory and great wealth...*



Sound familiar? It should.


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## Alcuin (Dec 16, 2008)

Are you really suggesting that the Númenórean court, the Númenórean sages, the royal family, the retainers, the servants in the royal house, and all the administrators, bureaucrats, functionaries, friends and relations hanging around the king would not have noticed a rather profound transformation? Tolkien says that the Númenóreans embalmed their dead kings, and that, in many ways, their society resembled the Egyptians. Are you suggesting that the royal household and the Númenórean embalmers would fail to notice that the person being buried was not really Uncle Atanamir? 

Kings are simply too closely watched: no king in any age or in any kingdom belongs solely to himself: if he monarch, as was a Númenórean High King, then he _is_ the state, and so his body is state property. No one can allow him to accept arcane trinkets from strange folk. He is watched, he is guarded, his changes and moods are noted from infancy to death. 

A royal _brother_ or close cousin (I prefer the notion of a brother, but a first cousin will do), on the other hand, will have more freedom of movement than the heir apparent, much less the royal personage. That person would _likely_ be given the task of ruling a colony or conquered city in Middle-earth as a royal regent: a _viceroy_. And _that_ person – bored, far from home at the _very beginnings_ of Númenórean expansionist policy, in places that would be, compared to home, rustic, boring, and uncouth, might well welcome the visit of a wise, kind, cultured, and knowledgeable companion: one who, after many years of visits, wise counsel, striking insight into Middle-earth, the history of Arda, politics and war, - and cozening, - offers a rare beneficence: a magic ring that will help the viceroy in his task.

_That_ is your Witch-king. Not the Númenórean ruler, whom he will influence upon his return. Because upon his return, he will be as commanding and regal as figure as the king himself: wise, himself beneficent, but – a little unorthodox in his beliefs. Why should we not sail to Tol Eressëa, he might ask. Why should we Dúnedain not enjoy life unending in Arda? Was it not our fate in our origins as our ancient tales tells us. (Cf. Andreth’s conversation with Finrod.) You know, answers the king, you’re right. Teach my son, the heir apparent, the worldly wisdom you have learned! And so the rebellion begins…

Eventually, this royal brother or cousin goes back to Middle-earth, where he made his fame and fortune conquering the savages there. He never returned to Númenor, and his fate was officially unknown.

But no King of Númenor could simply have vanished, fate unknown.


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## Úlairi (Dec 16, 2008)

Alcuin said:


> Are you really suggesting that the Númenórean court, the Númenórean sages, the royal family, the retainers, the servants in the royal house, and all the administrators, bureaucrats, functionaries, friends and relations hanging around the king would not have noticed a rather profound transformation? Tolkien says that the Númenóreans embalmed their dead kings, and that, in many ways, their society resembled the Egyptians. Are you suggesting that the royal household and the Númenórean embalmers would fail to notice that the person being buried was not really Uncle Atanamir?



Not suggesting so much as an _intellectual musing_ if you will, Alcuin. I'm *very* aware of what the life of a King must have been like. However you're also forgetting that _crucial_ period *before* they obtain the Sceptre. Tar-Ciryatan was _allowed_ to travel north, east and south. Many lands of which were under the sole dominion of Sauron himself. Sauron could assume fair hue and bestow gifts, thus calling himself _Annatar_. The inherent _corruption_ of these Kings may have been enough in tempting them to receive Rings of Power. As for failing to notice the burial; who truly _understands_ the _inherent_ power of the Nine Rings? There is nothing to suggest that coming under the dominion of Sauron is not a _death per se_. He simply would have _disappeared_ after being buried. 



Alcuin said:


> Kings are simply too closely watched: no king in any age or in any kingdom belongs solely to himself: if he monarch, as was a Númenórean High King, then he _is_ the state, and so his body is state property. No one can allow him to accept arcane trinkets from strange folk. He is watched, he is guarded, his changes and moods are noted from infancy to death.



I agree with you completely; which is why enslavement to a Ring of Power may have resulted in death; which is what we see with Frodo's wound from the sword of the Witch-king at Weathertop. As for watched and guarded he is also in control; and Sauron certainly didn't find it too difficult to _deceive_ a majority of the Númenoreans and the greatest of all their Kings. He deceived Celebrimbor and the Elves of Eregion into forging the Rings of Power also.



Alcuin said:


> A royal _brother_ or close cousin (I prefer the notion of a brother, but a first cousin will do), on the other hand, will have more freedom of movement than the heir apparent, much less the royal personage. That person would _likely_ be given the task of ruling a colony or conquered city in Middle-earth as a royal regent: a _viceroy_. And _that_ person – bored, far from home at the _very beginnings_ of Númenórean expansionist policy, in places that would be, compared to home, rustic, boring, and uncouth, might well welcome the visit of a wise, kind, cultured, and knowledgeable companion: one who, after many years of visits, wise counsel, striking insight into Middle-earth, the history of Arda, politics and war, - and cozening, - offers a rare beneficence: a magic ring that will help the viceroy in his task.



Also agreed. However the usurpation of the mind of a _King_ through enslavement to a Ring of Power would have been *invaluable* to Sauron; as none were greater in personal stature and inherent potence than the mighty Kings of Old. 



Alcuin said:


> _That_ is your Witch-king. Not the Númenórean ruler, whom he will influence upon his return. Because upon his return, he will be as commanding and regal as figure as the king himself: wise, himself beneficent, but – a little unorthodox in his beliefs. Why should we not sail to Tol Eressëa, he might ask. Why should we Dúnedain not enjoy life unending in Arda? Was it not our fate in our origins as our ancient tales tells us. (Cf. Andreth’s conversation with Finrod.) You know, answers the king, you’re right. Teach my son, the heir apparent, the worldly wisdom you have learned! And so the rebellion begins…



Very well depicted and constructed Alcuin. The recruitment of a Númenorean King into his service however would have been of far greater value, application of power and inherent strength through agency. It would also potentially precipitate other _conversions_ (Black Númenoreans?) if a great King of Old were to return with the secret to immortality. A prize well-beyond that of wealth and power. 



Alcuin said:


> Eventually, this royal brother or cousin goes back to Middle-earth, where he made his fame and fortune conquering the savages there. He never returned to Númenor, and his fate was officially unknown.
> 
> But no King of Númenor could simply have vanished, fate unknown.



I disagree. A King would have _vanished_ through usage of the Ring he held, but this may not have occurred until _after_ his actual "_death_". 



> _The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring - Many Meetings_
> 
> *They tried to pierce your heart with a Morgul-knife which remains in the wound. If they had succeeded, you would have become like they are, only weaker and under their command. You would have become a wraith...*



This _fading_ process aforementioned in relation to the Rings of Power in _The Shadow of the Past_ could be interpreted as a _death per se_. Frodo was _dying_ but he was also _fading_. This _process_ may have indeed been comparable to the Nazgûl's _enslavement_. Thus observation of Tar-Atanamir may have been that he was indeed _dying_; but he was actually _fading_; induced by the Ring under Sauron's domination. He may have then been _buried_ and after the _wraithing process_ was complete - he was never to be heard from again.


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## Alcuin (Dec 16, 2008)

Úlairi said:


> ...enslavement to a Ring of Power may have resulted in death; which is what we see with Frodo's wound from the sword of the Witch-king at Weathertop.


No. Gandalf told Frodo he would have become a wraith under the control of the Nazgûl. Bilbo said that he felt thin and stretched, like butter spread too thinly. Gollum was old and thin and stretched. The whole point of the Rings of Power was that they prevented fading among the Elves and prevented death among Men., both of which were (apparently) necromantic powers and both of which were in violation of the proper course of life in Arda. 




Úlairi said:


> As for watched and guarded he is also in control; and Sauron certainly didn't find it too difficult to _deceive_ a majority of the Númenoreans and the greatest of all their Kings. He deceived Celebrimbor and the Elves of Eregion into forging the Rings of Power also.


Sauron did not so much deceive the Númenóreans as he misled them. He certainly deceived Ar-Pharazôn, cozening him to assault Valinor; but the Númenóreans had already turned their hearts away from Eru. You are also discussing events that took place 13-16 centuries and many generations later. 

Tar-Ciryatan laid down his life of his own free will, and Tar-Atanamir sat upon his throne until he fell into dementia and died perforce. The ends of both of these Men are specifically noted, and they must therefore must be specifically excluded from becoming Ringwraiths. *If your position is that Tar-Ciryatan or Tar-Atanamir might have become Nazgûl, then it is is plainly contrary to the text.*





Úlairi said:


> ...the usurpation of the mind of a _King_ through enslavement to a Ring of Power would have been *invaluable* to Sauron; as none were greater in personal stature and inherent potence than the mighty Kings of Old.


However invaluable it might have been, it is a moot point: Tar-Ciryatan and Tar-Atanamir must be specifically excluded because the circumstances of their deaths are specifically noted by Tolkien.

I cannot fathom why people cling to the notion that one of the Númenórean High Kings might have become a Ringwraith when the textual evidence is so strongly against it, and *in the case of Tar-Ciryatan and Tar-Atanamir specifically excludes thier becoming Ringwraiths!* Tolkien tells us how they die, and then he tells us that the Númenóreans embalm their dead like the Egyptians did. The Ringwraiths are Men that fell victim to the Nine Rings of Power, not Borg!




Úlairi said:


> Very well depicted and constructed Alcuin. The recruitment of a Númenorean King into his service however would have been of far greater value, application of power and inherent strength through agency. It would also potentially precipitate other _conversions_ (Black Númenoreans?) if a great King of Old were to return with the secret to immortality. A prize well-beyond that of wealth and power.


Again, moot. Tar-Meneldur is the only Númenórean High King of the three whose fate is not specifically mentioned, and there is _*NO*_ textual evidence that Meneldur fell victim to the Rings. You are making an extraordinary claim: the burden falls upon you to demonstrate that the text supports your position.



Úlairi said:


> I disagree. A King would have _vanished_ through usage of the Ring he held, but this may not have occurred until _after_ his actual "_death_". ...
> 
> This _fading_ process aforementioned in relation to the Rings of Power in _The Shadow of the Past_ could be interpreted as a _death per se_. Frodo was _dying_ but he was also _fading_. This _process_ may have indeed been comparable to the Nazgûl's _enslavement_. Thus observation of Tar-Atanamir may have been that he was indeed _dying_; but he was actually _fading_; induced by the Ring under Sauron's domination. He may have then been _buried_ and after the _wraithing process_ was complete - he was never to be heard from again.


There is no textual evidence for this. Tolkien never indicates that the process of becoming a wraith involved dying: that was the whole purpose of a Ring of Power. Gollum seems to have been well along the process but to have resisted it in a fashion that strongly impressed Gandalf.

A Great Ring is a Sauronian trap: it prevents Elves from fading, and Men from dying. What good is the dratted thing if Annatar has to claim to Elves, “Oh, you just fade away like normal, it just takes a little longer, and then ‘poof!’ you come back good as new!” or to Men, “Oh, you’ll die, but then the Ring will resurrect you!” Neither of these is any better than Faith in Eru, but both are potentially *much* worse. 

And neither of those scenarios is supported by the plain text of the story. Gandalf tells Frodo in _FotR_, “Shadow of the Past”:


> A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings. Yes, sooner or later – later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last – sooner or later the dark power will devour him.


Gandalf specifically says that a Mortal with one of the Great Rings of Power _does not die_.

Again, you are making an _extraordinary claim_: you must demonstrate that the text supports your position. I don’t believe you can, because the text clearly refutes it.


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## Úlairi (Dec 17, 2008)

Alcuin said:


> No. Gandalf told Frodo he would have become a wraith under the control of the Nazgûl. Bilbo said that he felt thin and stretched, like butter spread too thinly. Gollum was old and thin and stretched. The whole point of the Rings of Power was that they prevented fading among the Elves and prevented death among Men., both of which were (apparently) necromantic powers and both of which were in violation of the proper course of life in Arda.



You're *absolutely* correct Alcuin. I know of the _bestowment of immortality_ on the _possessor_ of a Ring of Power. What I did wrong here was not substitute _death_ with _death per se_. The unnatural longevity of Ring-bearers may have been a _fading_ into _Shadow_; which could arguably be _perceived_ to be *like* death. You're also comparing the effects of the *One Ring* on Hobbits/Stoors to the effects of the *Nine Ring* on Men; which *may* have been different. I am aware of the intrinsic enervation of my argument here, as I have *no* literary evidence to support this _theory_. The properties of the Nine Rings may have been the _wraithing_ of its bearers; as any who possess them come under the Dominion of the One; and ultimately Sauron. We know that they become _invisible_ and _immortal_. Whilst I have no literary support for this argument; who is to say that this _wraithing process_ was not akin to death itself? 



Alcuin said:


> Sauron did not so much deceive the Númenóreans as he misled them. He certainly deceived Ar-Pharazôn, cozening him to assault Valinor; but the Númenóreans had already turned their hearts away from Eru. You are also discussing events that took place 13-16 centuries and many generations later.



_Mislead_ and _deceive_ - two interchangeable words in Australian Contract Law, Alcuin. 



Alcuin said:


> Tar-Ciryatan laid down his life of his own free will, and Tar-Atanamir sat upon his throne until he fell into dementia and died perforce. The ends of both of these Men are specifically noted, and they must therefore must be specifically excluded from becoming Ringwraiths. *If your position is that Tar-Ciryatan or Tar-Atanamir might have become Nazgûl, then it is is plainly contrary to the text.*



I know.  Ever heard of the phrase _missing_, _presumed dead_?  As aforementioned, I'm well aware of the fact that my argument is purely unsubstantiated, unsupported conjecture. I was accused of not having an imagination at one stage; guess I'm just trying to make up for it. 



Alcuin said:


> I cannot fathom why people cling to the notion that one of the Númenórean High Kings might have become a Ringwraith when the textual evidence is so strongly against it, and *in the case of Tar-Ciryatan and Tar-Atanamir specifically excludes thier becoming Ringwraiths!* Tolkien tells us how they die, and then he tells us that the Númenóreans embalm their dead like the Egyptians did. The Ringwraiths are Men that fell victim to the Nine Rings of Power, not Borg!



Love the _Star_-_Trek_ reference... haven't watched it for years. I don't _cling_ to this concept; I just likes it, is all.  I actually agree with you here, Alcuin. I'm fighting a losing battle, but I knew that _before_ I posted it. There's also a reason why I posted this _theory_ *first*. I have another (old) one of mine in the works. I just wanted to get this one out of the way first. Try it on for size. It's workable as a theory, but you have to add your own unsubstantiated elements into the discussion; which certain other people around here tend to do. I was just trying it out to see how much *fun* it can be. I promise the next theory will have textual evidence to support it. It's on its way. I'll be far more prepared to defend it as well.



Alcuin said:


> You are making an extraordinary claim: the burden falls upon you to demonstrate that the text supports your position.



And we both _already_ know there isn't any... 



Alcuin said:


> There is no textual evidence for this. Tolkien never indicates that the process of becoming a wraith involved dying: that was the whole purpose of a Ring of Power. Gollum seems to have been well along the process but to have resisted it in a fashion that strongly impressed Gandalf.



Yeah, here's where I think I might have a _little_ evidence. Also the quote from _The Shadow of the Past_; however it is important to note that the Three Rings did not bestow invisibility, as they were untouched by Sauron's hand. Although I incorrectly used _death_ above in one section; I meant the phrase _death per se_ to be _death in itself_ or _like death_. It was perceivably, to watch this _fading_, _like death_.



Alcuin said:


> Again, you are making an _extraordinary claim_: you must demonstrate that the text supports your position. I don’t believe you can, because the text clearly refutes it.



I know I can't. But, like I said, I knew that _before_ I posted it.


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## Bucky (Dec 28, 2008)

; I am very open to the possiblity that the Witch-king was Tar-Minastir, Tar-Ciryatan or Tar-Atanamir.

*No way....

If a Numenorean king received a Ring of Power while living, which obviously the Nine did, what would've made them be removed as King?

There NEVER would have been another King after him.*


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## Bucky (Feb 19, 2009)

I read this on another site & thought it might have some validity......

*
S.A. 837 Birth of Ancalimë
1003 Birth of Anárion
------ Birth of Surion’s daughters
1174 Birth of Súrion
1075 Aldarion gives the scptre to Ancalimë
1280 Ancalimë gives the sceptre to Tar- Anárion 
1285 Death of Ancalimë
1320 Birth of Telperien
------ Birth of Isilmo
1394 Anárion gives the sceptre to Tar- Surion leaving behind his older daughters
1404 Death of Anárion
1474 Birth of Minastir
1500 Elves of Eregion forge the first Rings
1556 Surion gives the sceptre to Tar- Telperien against Isilmo´s pretentions
1574 Death of Surion
1590 The three are created
1600 The one is created
1634 Birth of Ciryatan
1695 Sauron invades Eriador
----- Sauron takes the 7 and the 9 rings
1700 Tar- Minastir sends troops to defeat Sauron in the Battle of Gwathló
1701 Sauron is totaly defeated and returns to Mordor
1731 Telperien gives the sceptre to Tar- Minastir and dies
------ Expectable date of Death of Isilmo without a ring
1800 Birth of Atanamir
1869 Minastir gives the sceptre to Tar- Ciryatan
1873 Minastir dies
2029 Tar Ciyatan gives the sceptre presumably by force to Tar- Atanamir
2035 Ciryatan dies
2221 Atanamir dies holding the scpetre
2251 The Nazgul rise



Surion’s sisters Would have been only very little kids when Ancalimë received the sceptre. At her death they would have been slightly older than 106 years, they would be older than 220 years when they finaly refused the sceptre, that is about half their expectable lifespan.

Tar Surion received the sceptre, not being the eldest heir, who was one of his sisters. His children were Telperien and Isilmo, and this time it was the eldest who took the sceptre. In the first case Surion’s sisters refused the sceptre and his succession was legal that way, in the second case Telperiën got the sceptre while her brother wanted it, Isilmo’s pretentions could have been illegal if he had known that Telperiën wanted the throne. If he only pretended to rule while his sister was not sure whether she wanted to do so, then those are legitimate pretentions. If he pretended to rule while his sister had announced she wanted the sceptre, then his pretentions are fully illegal. 

In any case he disappeared, at some point after his sister’s coronation, and considering that the normal lifespan of Númenorean men of that time, was about 400 years he may have easily lived for 40 or 35 years after Sauron took the nine rings from the elves. So he may easily have received the chief ring of the nine. The Nazgul rose 520 years after the presumable death of Isilmo, It may have taken all that time for the rings to subyugate men, and specially Isilmo, and the other Númenórean Nazgul. However the ring would have extended his life for all that time, until he finally became a Nazgul.

So the dates make it possible for Isilmo to have been the Witch King, but this is not only possible but probable, because he fits very well in the profile of the witch King.

He had a grudge towards women (perhaps towards powerful, somehow manly women), since his sister had taken the sceptre from him, and it was Eowyn who finally defeated him.
Perhaps the Witch King-Isilmo had still pretentions to the throne of Arnor and Gondor and that was the reason for his wars against Arnor. Also remember his words to Gandalf when he trespassed the gate of Minas Tirith wearing a crown: “¡Old fool! My time has come.” 

This pretentions would have been rightfull, I believe, although Isilmo was not a descendant of Elendil, who was the first King of Arnor and Gondor, had Aragorn not existed, being a direct descendant of Elros he would have had a rightful claim over the throne of those kingdoms.

It is noticeable that Tar-Minastir, who was Isilmo’s son was the first King of Númenor to feel uncomfortable with death, and it would be correct to say that Númenor’s corruption started when Minastir received the sceptre, after Minastir Kings became quickly alienated from the Valar.

Another Possibility is that the King himself Tar-Atanamir had received a ring and became the Witch King, he died shortly before the rise of the Nazgul. He proved to have the greedy personality of a ring bearer, forcing his father to surrender the sceptre.

However he seems least likely to me, because Tolkien wouldn’t have let Sauron corrupt the Kings of Númenor so much so early in history, not until Ar-Pharazon. Also he lived 420 years, that is only 20 years more than the average Númenorean King of his time, a ring of power would have extended his life much more than that (consider how much Gollum lived compared to the average hobbit lifespan).

What do you think?
*

The only things I might add to this is that the laws of Numenorean sucession were such that the oldest child of the ruler was the heir, whether male or female after the 6th ruler, a queen, if I remember correctly (too late to look up). So, I don't really understand the bit about 'legal pretentsion'.

The second is that any Numenorean who got a Ring of Power had to 

1. Go to Middle-earth to get it and

2. Be in Middle-earth at the reasonable age of death to disappear instead of not die in Numenor and raise suspiction.


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## Úlairi (Feb 19, 2009)

Brilliant findings and deduction but the textual evidence is speculative in some instances, especially that of the exchange between Gandalf and the Witch-king is simply between Sauron and Gandalf as the Witch-king was no longer in possession of his own will. "_My time has come_" is an assertion of the dominion of Sauron as the Witch-king had no will but Sauron's due to his utter subservient subjugation to the One Ring.

*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


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## Tyelkormo (Feb 19, 2009)

Úlairi said:


> Brilliant findings and deduction but the textual evidence is speculative in some instances, especially that of the exchange between Gandalf and the Witch-king is simply between Sauron and Gandalf as the Witch-king was no longer in possession of his own will. "_My time has come_" is an assertion of the dominion of Sauron as the Witch-king had no will but Sauron's due to his utter subservient subjugation to the One Ring.


 
Tricky. The situation at Pellenor cannot be generalized, nor can the general situation be applied to Pellenor. Tolkien specifically states that the WK was powered up with demonic force for the battle, and this may well also include giving him more autonomy, as would be reasonable so that he can react more precisely and quickly in directing the battle.

At the same time, for the very same reason, I wonder if the subjugation under the One Ring indeed prevents any degree of autonomy whatsoever or chiefly means the replacement of all individual goals and passions with Sauron's. He _is_ still the Witch-_King_ and ruled a realm, Angmar, and if it's just the same as if Sauron did it himself, then there is little reason for Sauron not to do it himself, as, e.g. the Necromancer. There's have to be some degree of gain of efficiency for the arrangement, which is only the case if the WK is a slavishly loyal, but to some degree autonomous agent.

Which does not mean I fully agree with the conclusions on the other side.


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## Úlairi (Feb 19, 2009)

Tyelkormo said:


> Tricky. The situation at Pellenor cannot be generalized, nor can the general situation be applied to Pellenor. Tolkien specifically states that the WK was powered up with demonic force for the battle, and this may well also include giving him more autonomy, as would be reasonable so that he can react more precisely and quickly in directing the battle.
> 
> At the same time, for the very same reason, I wonder if the subjugation under the One Ring indeed prevents any degree of autonomy whatsoever or chiefly means the replacement of all individual goals and passions with Sauron's. He _is_ still the Witch-_King_ and ruled a realm, Angmar, and if it's just the same as if Sauron did it himself, then there is little reason for Sauron not to do it himself, as, e.g. the Necromancer. There's have to be some degree of gain of efficiency for the arrangement, which is only the case if the WK is a slavishly loyal, but to some degree autonomous agent.
> 
> Which does not mean I fully agree with the conclusions on the other side.


 
I would gladly love to deliberate this with you Tyelkormo as there is a strong correlation to Tolkien's explanation of _magia _and _goeteia_ here; however, it would divert the course of this particular thread off its topic...

Btw, interesting usage of the word _autonomy_ there - I haven't seen it used in years which makes me wonder why that is.  It's quite commonplace...

*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


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## Tyelkormo (Feb 19, 2009)

Úlairi said:


> I would gladly love to deliberate this with you Tyelkormo as there is a strong correlation to Tolkien's explanation of _magia _and _goeteia_ here; however, it would divert the course of this particular thread off its topic...


 
Open a new one, then


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## Úlairi (Feb 19, 2009)

Tyelkormo said:


> Open a new one, then


 
Why's it *always* have to be me? 



*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


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## Bucky (Feb 19, 2009)

Úlairi said:


> I would gladly love to deliberate this with you Tyelkormo as there is a strong correlation to Tolkien's explanation of _magia _and _goeteia_ here; however, it would divert the course of this particular thread off its topic...
> 
> [/B]



*I HATE when you use Elvish, Ulari..... 

What the heck do those words mean? 

On the question at hand, The 'Lord of the Nazgul' (why does everyone call him the Witch-king when he hadn't been known as that in 1000 years?) and the other Nazgul are clearly stated to 'have no will but the will of Sauron'.
However, I do not think this means that the Black Captain (lol) was a robot speaking the voice of Sauron and controlled like a puppet. He could certainly speak & act as he decided within the will of Sauron. *


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## Úlairi (Feb 19, 2009)

Bucky said:


> *I HATE when you use Elvish, Ulari..... *
> 
> *What the heck do those words mean? *
> 
> ...


 
*Those aren't Elvish words, Bucky*. Wiki them. Tolkien discusses the application of these words to the Rings of Power and all _magic_ within Arda in _Letter_ #_155_. The use of _mechanisic magic_, especially in the Rings of Power, is most interesting and enlightening.

As for the WK, I'm not denying all autonomy whatsoever; that would (most likely) be ludicrous. However, his "_time_" and Sauron's "_lordship_" obviously overlap - it is both a reference to his master's and his own dominion. Declaring his own separate dominion would be extrinsic of his master's will.

*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


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## Bucky (Feb 20, 2009)

Gotcha, Ulari....

It's been a long week, the kid's are off from school. 

BTW: I hate having to look things up too.


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## Úlairi (Feb 20, 2009)

So do we want to discuss Witch-king autonomy in the context of _mechanistic magic_ (the extension of will through the reduction of cause and effect) in another thread? Might as well find out who's interested before I waste my time... I know it's all my fault, however...

*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


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## Tyelkormo (Feb 20, 2009)

Úlairi said:


> So do we want to discuss Witch-king autonomy in the context of _mechanistic magic_ (the extension of will through the reduction of cause and effect) in another thread? Might as well find out who's interested before I waste my time... I know it's all my fault, however...


 
Heh, I already told you "open another thread"


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## Úlairi (Feb 20, 2009)

Tyelkormo said:


> Heh, I already told you "open another thread"


 
Fine then. Hope this one doesn't crash and burn either...

*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


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## Glaurund (Jul 27, 2009)

I am new to the forum, but I have wondered this very question for many years and my son asked me the other day. I prefer to look at it from the way the story grew and developed.
We know that Tolkien's early works were predominantly set in teh eldar days and the second age. It wasn't until after the success of teh Hobbit that Bilbo's ring changed to the One Ring and it was only then that he devised the whole history of the Rings of Power as outlined in the chapter "The Shadow of the Past" which is the oldest chapter in the LOTR. He had to introduce enemies fairly quickly, so enter the Black Riders with a brief decription of their origins.
The much larger history of Gondor did not appear until Faramir entered the story and with this comes a brief quote under year 2251 of the Second Age "About this time the Nazgul or Ring wraiths, slaves of the Nine Rings, first appear." This is when a large part of Appendix B the Tale of teh Years was devised. 
I don't think that Tolkien gave specific thought to the origins of the Nazgul as he was much more concerned in later life with completing tales from the First Age rather than revisiting LOTR.


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## childoferu (Jul 27, 2009)

Glaurund said:


> I am new to the forum, but I have wondered this very question for many years and my son asked me the other day. I prefer to look at it from the way the story grew and developed.
> We know that Tolkien's early works were predominantly set in teh eldar days and the second age. It wasn't until after the success of teh Hobbit that Bilbo's ring changed to the One Ring and it was only then that he devised the whole history of the Rings of Power as outlined in the chapter "The Shadow of the Past" which is the oldest chapter in the LOTR. He had to introduce enemies fairly quickly, so enter the Black Riders with a brief decription of their origins.
> The much larger history of Gondor did not appear until Faramir entered the story and with this comes a brief quote under year 2251 of the Second Age "About this time the Nazgul or Ring wraiths, slaves of the Nine Rings, first appear." This is when a large part of Appendix B the Tale of teh Years was devised.
> I don't think that Tolkien gave specific thought to the origins of the Nazgul as he was much more concerned in later life with completing tales from the First Age rather than revisiting LOTR.


 
Welcome to the TTF Glaurand, and just in case you didn't know, those guys you're responding to are *long *gone, but in response to your post, you're probably right that Tolkien didn't really give specific thought to the origins of the Nazgul and probably just didn't have the time or energy, so really, the theories proposed are at best scholarly speculation but you'll find this is what the TTF is all about!


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## Silnim (Sep 3, 2009)

Instead of a huge debate taking up the whole page why don't you just explain to the guy that the Ringwraiths were the 9 men, kings of their realm, enslaved by Sauron, blinded by thier greed. See? That was only a few sentences!


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## Prince of Cats (Sep 3, 2009)

Silnim said:


> Instead of a huge debate taking up the whole page why don't you just explain to the guy that the Ringwraiths were the 9 men, kings of their realm, enslaved by Sauron, blinded by thier greed. See? That was only a few sentences!



Silnim, because we come here in want of MORE!!  

With your approach there is no learning nor any point of discussion. That's the point of a forum


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