# A little bit later. . .your opinions on the C9



## HLGStrider (Oct 10, 2003)

Hello,
I'm a member of the C9. This group has been in existance for awhile now, but we really haven't been solid or functioning. We've lost three members for differing reasons and are now the C6. We never quite finished up our Charter we were planning to make. We made one decision. We haven't really solved any fights. . .

so what are we here for?

We need your help.

I think the C9 will either end or start over very soon. Whichever it will be slightly different. We need help!


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## HLGStrider (Oct 10, 2003)

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=10766 

A link to a thread which has my idea, somewhat, of what the C9 should be like.


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## Rhiannon (Oct 10, 2003)

I'm wondering, does anyone know what the C9 is _for_? You can't do anything if you don't have a purpose. 

My assumption is that you're here to set policies/boundaries/whatever, and make the occaisonal necassary arbitrary decision...but no one knows for sure. But I would think that in the recent re-formatting debates (ie the GoP/GoR, the Green Dragon) we've come to a grinding stop that can only be solved by someone making an arbitrary decision- and wouldn't that someone be the C9?


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## HLGStrider (Oct 10, 2003)

It's not initially what I'd seen or planned at all.

here's something I posted on an earlier thread:

I always assumed the C9 would. . .

Mediate disputes
Handle complaints against forum administration
Listen to the public and feel out how things are going

This was an idea given by Eriol which Elbereth and I agreed upon early on for a good idea of C9'ery.


_Well, I should think one of the very first decisions of the C9 would be to be mentioned in FAQ and Rules of the Forum . 

I suppose the role of the C9 is to act as a buffer between moderators and members. Moderators are well versed in the rules, and I think it is best for the harmony between them and that the two areas of activity be kept apart. C9ers should not be bugged with complaints about moved threads, warning points, etc. 

So, the only areas in which C9ers would be active as I see it is in the realm of personal attacks and general complaints (the 'voice of the membership'). In the first area, especially, I think it should have ascendancy over moderators. Sure, moderators would still apply warning points and edit posts, but banning decisions (especially) would be left to the C9, unless mandatory by the rules(over a number of warning points).

Logistics: you should decide a minimum quorum for lesser decisions, and full quorum for banning. (I suppose 5 is a good minimum quorum) Lesser decisions would include the freezing of a thread for a period, stuffs like that. 

Area of jurisdiction : I think it is important to establish that C9 has jurisdiction over the entire Forum, EXCEPT (and I think it is important to mention that in the light of the cir-hur episode) on PM's. Private Messages should be private, and no punishment whatsoever should be given if someone insults a guy up to the 7th generation in a PM. 

Other stuffs I have not given thought to, but you (the c9) probably should, is length of mandate, procedures for new elections, what to do if someone in the C9 decides to leave it (call elections? nominate? Ask WM for a new one?). _


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## Lúthien Séregon (Oct 10, 2003)

Also, what is the difference between the moderators and the C9, if the C9's purpose is to set boundaries or resolve matters such as the Green Dragon debate?


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## HLGStrider (Oct 10, 2003)

The initial purpose was to deal with disputes between mods and members or members and members, as opposed to mods dealing out punishment. The idea was for the C9 to sort things out and so the mods could have their hands free to deal with serious trouble makers. 

You could complain to the C9 if someone had insulted you and yet you didn't want to report their post for some reason and would rather see it sorted out via a nice, reasonable arguement. You could use it to appeal if you thought the mods were treating you unfairly. Etc.


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## HLGStrider (Oct 10, 2003)

a conversation on the subject between myself and Tal.

Estel oh Fareni says:
Blah. . .
Let's do the Time Warp again! *bashes brains in* says:
hmm?
Estel oh Fareni says:
The C9 just isn't working right
Let's do the Time Warp again! *bashes brains in* says:
no, it isn't
Estel oh Fareni says:
it isn't at all what I percieved, you know.
Estel oh Fareni says:
I thought we'd be there to help with disputes between members or members and mods
Estel oh Fareni says:
instead we have threads dealing with the post count issue and that's about it.
Estel oh Fareni says:
http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=13441
Estel oh Fareni says:
started that, by the way
Let's do the Time Warp again! *bashes brains in* says:
I know, and personally, I feel like C9 is kinda stepping on the mod's toes, because we've always been the ones to decide issues like that
Estel oh Fareni says:
I think we should've defined what the C9 would do before we set it up
Estel oh Fareni says:
that was the main problem.
Let's do the Time Warp again! *bashes brains in* says:
yeah
Estel oh Fareni says:
I mean, look at our section. . .
Estel oh Fareni says:
my thread on book newbies sort of is a point that I think the C9 should have something to do with. ..new member services
Estel oh Fareni says:
C9 Abscences isn't really to discuss anything, but a necessary thread
Estel oh Fareni says:
The Religion guild threads (two of them). .. I really don't know why WM gave us that decision to make. It wasn't in the job description.
Estel oh Fareni says:
Stepping down. . .
Estel oh Fareni says:
that's an announcment thread
Estel oh Fareni says:
New Structure thread. . .That didn't seem to be our business either
Let's do the Time Warp again! *bashes brains in* says:
I know, it's rather bad
Estel oh Fareni says:
limit on guild membership
Estel oh Fareni says:
I posted that that wasn't our business but now one wanted to listen to me
Let's do the Time Warp again! *bashes brains in* says:
*sighs* yeah, know what you mean
Estel oh Fareni says:
Post count issue. . .I also posted that that wasn't our business. . .
Estel oh Fareni says:
reinstatement of HThalion sort of was. . .that's a membership issue
Estel oh Fareni says:
but most of what we got our hands into hasn't been
Let's do the Time Warp again! *bashes brains in* says:
yeah, I think you were right on that one to bring it up
Let's do the Time Warp again! *bashes brains in* says:
agreed
Estel oh Fareni says:
so it is all blah
Let's do the Time Warp again! *bashes brains in* says:
it's actually made me kinda mad in the last couple months
Let's do the Time Warp again! *bashes brains in* says:
hmmm
Estel oh Fareni says:
Gonna post in my new thread?
Let's do the Time Warp again! *bashes brains in* says:
umm, where is it?
Estel oh Fareni says:
http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=13441
Estel oh Fareni says:
see
Estel oh Fareni says:
and that link should work
Let's do the Time Warp again! *bashes brains in* says:
sounds good
Estel oh Fareni says:
I love working links
Estel oh Fareni says:
they're so reassuring
Let's do the Time Warp again! *bashes brains in* says:
*giggles*
Estel oh Fareni says:
brb
Let's do the Time Warp again! *bashes brains in* says:
k
Estel oh Fareni says:
b
Let's do the Time Warp again! *bashes brains in* says:
ok
Estel oh Fareni says:
You remember my thread Moderators and Mediators?
Estel oh Fareni says:
That's really what I thought the C9 would be like and why I really wanted to be on it. . .and thought I might be able to do a half-decent job
Let's do the Time Warp again! *bashes brains in* says:
right
Estel oh Fareni says:
I may have strong opinions in debates, but I don't insult people very often and I can speak softly. . .and any situation can be defused with a joke.
Let's do the Time Warp again! *bashes brains in* says:
yeah
Estel oh Fareni says:
I wanted to do that
Estel oh Fareni says:
not deal with forum politics in the grand scheme of things
Let's do the Time Warp again! *bashes brains in* says:
aye, politics is not fun
Estel oh Fareni says:
it is and it isn't
Estel oh Fareni says:
if one really has the ability and the authority one can get into politics. ..
Estel oh Fareni says:
the C9 never did
Let's do the Time Warp again! *bashes brains in* says:
right
Let's do the Time Warp again! *bashes brains in* says:
to tell the truth, I don't think they had much respect with members or the mods
Estel oh Fareni says:
Well, the election was a circus
Estel oh Fareni says:
and no one knew what we were doing
Estel oh Fareni says:
the idea was good in general, however, dont you think
Estel oh Fareni says:
?
Let's do the Time Warp again! *bashes brains in* says:
yeah, it was, but it just wasn't altogether "there"
Estel oh Fareni says:
it had some great ideas in it
Let's do the Time Warp again! *bashes brains in* says:
yes
Estel oh Fareni says:
hmph
Estel oh Fareni says:
blah . ..
Estel oh Fareni says:
I think I'll post a link to my moderators and mediators thread within my new thread
Let's do the Time Warp again! *bashes brains in* says:
ok
Estel oh Fareni says:
I think Eriol also had a good idea for what the C9 should be like
Estel oh Fareni says:
he pm'ed it to me and I posted it on an early C9 thread
Let's do the Time Warp again! *bashes brains in* says:
what was it?
Estel oh Fareni says:
ah. . .Rhi's replying to my thread
Estel oh Fareni says:
I'm looking for it
Estel oh Fareni says:
I don't like to try and paraphrase Eriol . ..it never works
Let's do the Time Warp again! *bashes brains in* says:
hehehe
Estel oh Fareni says:
blah
Estel oh Fareni says:
I can't find it
Estel oh Fareni says:
I can't remember what thread it was on, either
Let's do the Time Warp again! *bashes brains in* says:
hmm, ah well
Estel oh Fareni says:
Got it
Estel oh Fareni says:
found it
Let's do the Time Warp again! *bashes brains in* says:
yay
Estel oh Fareni says:
hmmm now how to get it to you
Estel oh Fareni says:
ah ha!
Estel oh Fareni sends:
Transfer of "c9 idea.txt" is complete.

Let's do the Time Warp again! *bashes brains in* says:
I disagree with the banning thing, that needs to be left to the mods
Estel oh Fareni says:
yes and no. . .I mean when I certain person has undeniably broken the rules, yes, but other times they deserve a trial
Let's do the Time Warp again! *bashes brains in* says:
well, yeah, but I think that even that decision should be left to the mods
Let's do the Time Warp again! *bashes brains in* says:
the thing I don't like is that by the time everyone actually comes to an agreement, it's been months since the incident
Estel oh Fareni says:
si
Estel oh Fareni says:
we never really had an incident to try ourselves out on, either
Let's do the Time Warp again! *bashes brains in* says:
true


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## Rhiannon (Oct 10, 2003)

Oops, I x-posted with your second post, Elgee.

I think it sounds like you have very clear, good ideas on what the C9 should be- it just needs to be set in stone, really. 

I do see the GoP/GoR and Green Dragon decisions as fitting in that description, though; they're sensitive subjects, and people tend to get defensive when they come up. I think it would keep peace better to have an impartial (or at least mostly impartial) force step in and make a decision (like Mom saying "All right, that's enough bickering, Charis gets to sit up front this time.")


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## Mrs. Maggott (Oct 21, 2003)

To my mind, the Council was supposed to provide a place where _members_ could go when they believed that they were being ill treated or had suffered some sort of injustice at the hands of a moderator. Our members would be available to hear grievances and see if one (or more) of us could attempt a resolution of the problem before it "grew" out of hand (you know, people lining up on one side or the other). Many members felt that they could not approach any moderators if they were having a problem with one moderator because they would probably "stick together". Hence there was a perception of being helpless in the face of decisions from the forum's leadership. The Council was supposed to be there as an "interface" to help settle such problems and perhaps - if warranted - intercede with the w.m. on behalf of the beleaguered member. Fortunately, so far we have not had such a situation arise (to my knowledge) or, if it has come up, it certainly hasn't "blown up" so large that the whole forum is aware of it! 

The Council is a safety valve. It's members should serve as just that. We should not be "looking around" for something to do! We should be here if needed and if not, we should be about our own business on the forum. If there is an effort to make of the Council something else - such as another, lower governing body - we lose our ability to act on behalf of the membership. We had decided (I think!) that we would operate in pairs and if someone called for help - _including_ the forum's administration - a pair of us would go "scope out" the matter and report to the whole Council, after which, we would hopefully arrive at a decision which we would then impart to the forum as a whole. 

Of course, we are not "the last word" and whatever we decided would be (at best) to be considered by the P.T.B (Powers that Be), but I simply cannot understand any need for the Council to have some sort of "official function(s)" or otherwise it somehow ain't woikin'.


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## Snaga (Oct 22, 2003)

Quite right Mrs M. There havent been huge fights between members that have needed C9 involvement and that's good, right? Apart a bit of inevitable member turnover, I can't see a problem so why do we need this discussion?

Our new Supermod appears to have a problem with the C9 so perhaps she should post? (Forgive me if I don't trawl through your private msn convos Elgee, but if its rather long....)


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## Mrs. Maggott (Oct 22, 2003)

Look! To my mind, part of the problem is that the Council has yet to "define" itself formally. Let's finish the Charter (and include therein how members might be replaced or even _if_ they should be replaced if they leave the Council before their 9 month stint is up) and get it accepted by the Admins. Once that is done, the Council should be ready to step up to the plate, so to speak, if need should arise.

Frankly, this is one of the reasons I voted against the need to "elect a leader". It should just be nine competent, resourceful and willing members who are there if needed. Somehow the thing seems to be taking on a life of its own and becoming just one more level of bureaucracy within the forum. We are spending more time defining ourselves and running around chasing our collective tails than we are offering support to the members if needed. Just finish the Charter, replace any members (if needed which I doubt) and sit back. Soon it will be time for a new Council since everyone voted to limit terms to 9 months and the whole thing may begin again if the Charter is not completed and set in place! 

To my mind, we are a sort of "Dear Abby" of the forum as our individual members may be approached by those on the forum who don't know us from Adam's house cat if they are having a problem. Oh, and by the way, certainly the one thing that _should_ be done is that the Council's members' names should be posted on a thread in the forum so that members know who we are and therefore whom they can approach if they need to do so. This, naturally, would change as Council personnel changes. But otherwise, for heaven sakes, we should be involved in "Council matters" only if and when such "matters" come to the fore and we are apprised of them! We're making a mountain out of a molehill here, people!


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