# Who would win between Olorin and Sauron?



## redline2200

If there was a direct confrontation between Olorin (as his true Maia form, not his Gandalf form) and Sauron (also assuming he was in full form) who would be the victor?


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## BlackCaptain

Well, I think that Sauron would win cuz he's the next best thing to Melkor, and Olorin is just another Maiar in the good-people-spirit-world.


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## redline2200

But whose to say Sauron is even that powerful among the Maiar? He may be one of the most powerful of Morgoths forces, but Morgoth's forces were just ordinary Maia that fell. The bad Maia weren't neccesarily the best Maia just the ones that were decieved. 
I'm not at all trying to contradict you, I was just making a point that you might not have thought about.


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## BlackCaptain

Good point, but could Melkor beat Gandalf, yes. The very next best thing to him could probably take him as well. And Gandalf even has trouble fending off the witch-king, letalone Sauron. Were talkin about the biggest force in all ME, Sauron. Im sure if Olorin could take Sauron, he wouldve left Gandalf's body and fought him on the slopes of doom er somthin...


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## Maeglin

Morgulking he would not have done that, The Istari are NOT ALLOWED to show themselves in forms of power or majesty, which is why they look like old men, and they are forbidden to match Sauron's power with their own Power, their mission is to unite men and elves against Sauron, but not use their own power against him, at least not any more than is absolutely necessary. 

And Morgulking you speak of Gandalf having trouble taking on the witch king, that is for the reason's that I stated above, he's not allowed to use his full power, and also because in Middle-Earth he is Gandalf, not Olorin, Olorin in his true Maia form could take on the witch-king easily. 

That being said, I'm still not sure who would win, because Sauron _is_ very powerful. But maybe Olorin could take him on, because if you remember when he becomes Gandalf the White he says "none can now defeat me save the enemy himself," or something along those lines, so that leads me to believe that Olorin could beat Sauron, but I'm not gonna vote on this cause I'm still really not sure.


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## Gandalf White

> And Gandalf even has trouble fending off the witch-king,


 I can't agree with that. When he was only Gandalf the GREY, he managed to fend off ALL NINE at once. True, he had to run away, but as the white and facing only the witch-king I believe he would have no problem. After all Gandalf is a Maia and the witch-king is only a man, howbeit powerful. 
I really can't decide who would win between Gandalf and Sauron, although I'm rather biased to Gandalf, for obvious reasons!


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## Hadhafang

Gandalf the Grey smoked the Balrog who is probably a step below Sauron in power. My guess would be that Gandalf the White being a step higher than "Grey" would defeat Sauron one-on-one. Since Gandalf the white would most likely defeat Sauron...Olorin would pulverize Sauron.


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## FoolOfATook

> Gandalf the Grey smoked the Balrog


 Don't make it sound too one-sided... Durin's Bane got his licks in too  

Right now I'm trying to remember conflicts in which Maia was pitted against Maia (and not Maia v. Istari, since we've established that those situations are of little value in determining a Maia's true strength). For some reason, I'm drawing a total blank, although it seems unlikely to me that there are no such conflicts in the Tolkien Legendarum. Once we have some frame of reference for what all-out fighting between Maiar, then we can begin... or is this one of those questions that just too hypothetical to really begin? 

When I don't sleep enough I get all stream-of-conciousness.


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## Gil-Galad

> _Originally posted by Glorfindel1187 _
> *Morgulking he would not have done that, The Istari are NOT ALLOWED to show themselves in forms of power or majesty, which is why they look like old men, and they are forbidden to match Sauron's power with their own Power, their mission is to unite men and elves against Sauron, but not use their own power against him, at least not any more than is absolutely necessary.
> 
> And Morgulking you speak of Gandalf having trouble taking on the witch king, that is for the reason's that I stated above, he's not allowed to use his full power, and also because in Middle-Earth he is Gandalf, not Olorin, Olorin in his true Maia form could take on the witch-king easily.
> 
> That being said, I'm still not sure who would win, because Sauron is very powerful. But maybe Olorin could take him on, because if you remember when he becomes Gandalf the White he says "none can now defeat me save the enemy himself," or something along those lines, so that leads me to believe that Olorin could beat Sauron, but I'm not gonna vote on this cause I'm still really not sure. *



That is right my fellow elf!There is nothing I can add.


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## Wynston

First, I have to agree here with those that said this wouldn't happen. This is exactly what the Istari were forbidden to do.

I can think of two circumstances in which Sauron was defeated in combat. One, is where Beren and Luthien bested him, and two is where Gil-Galad and Elendil defeated him. (although they both died) So, no matter how powerful, Sauron could be defeated in single combat. I would have to say that Olorin, in his Maia form, not in and Gandalf form, would have been more powerful than Beren/Luthien (although Luthien was part Maia) or Elendil/Gil-Galad. It is conceivable that, especially without the ring, Olorin in his Maia form could have defeated Sauron. 

That being said, I think the better answer is that the Istari weren't sent to middle earth to match power with Sauron. Their purspose is to guide, and influence, and in a sense prepare the men for a time when they will be on their own. Its almost like that old saying, you can give a man a fish, but if you teach him how to fish, he will never go hungry. (or something like that!)


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## Ghan-buri-ghan

*New Orders For The Istari!*

I have to agree and disagree with Glorfindel, Wynston, and Gil-Galad about the Istari.

The Appendices do say all that about the mission of the Istari. However, it appears when Gandalf the White came back, he had received new orders.

He revealed his power rescuing Faramir on the Field of Pelennor. His bolts of white fire dispersed the pursuing Nazgul. If the Nazgul had attacked him instead of running away what result? Can there be any doubt that Gandalf would have fought it out with the Nazgul on the Fields?

And when Grond broke the Gate of Minas Tirith, and Gandalf was there, alone on Shadowfax, was he prepared to "hide his power?" Can anyone doubt that had the Witch King ridden through the gate Gandalf would have confronted him one on one?

True, he did NOT use his power at the gates of Barad-Dur. I don't know why -- perhaps because the Eagles came and attacked the Nazgul, but, there, I'm speculating.

But there are apparently some conditions under which Gandalf the White uses his full powers.


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## BlackCaptain

Allright. I agree now too.

Ive been proved wrong again! haha... i mean... Constructively Critisized.


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## Ghan-buri-ghan

*New Orders For the Istari, continued*

Of course I meant the Black Gates of Mordor, not the gates to Barad-Dur.


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## Ithrynluin

Hmmm...I suppose Olorin would win. Do you mean Sauron as he is at the end of the 3rd Age or at the beginning of his servitude to Melkor?
Sauron is no warrior and Gandalf has proven himself in his trial with the Balrog.


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## Maeglin

Yeah but Sauron can fight if need be, or at least he's good at running away from a fight! But thats a good question about which Sauron, because I think he was more powerful with Melkor than he was without him.


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## redline2200

> _Originally posted by Ghan-buri-ghan _*
> But there are apparently some conditions under which Gandalf the White uses his full powers. *



I disagree. 

First, I don't think Gandalf shooting white fire was the _fullest_ extent of his Maia power. I mean these are Ainur for Pete's sake! Compare some white fire to the girdle of Melian or the waves of Osse or any other demonstration of Maia power; I think there was more to Olorin.

Second, Who ever said that the Istari _could_ use their Maia power? Maybe by being put into old man bodies they were physically limited to use open power, as in they couldn't if they wanted to. Saruman turned his back on the Valar anyway, so he probably didn't care what they said; you think he would have used his open power if he could have. The ban of the Valar on the Istari probably would have meant little to Saruman, assuming he could use his open power.


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## Maeglin

You took the words right out of my mouth (or keyboard rather) Redline2200, I can't add any more to that.


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## 10000 strong

Well Gandalf The White against Sauron.... Gandalf...


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## Lantarion

A lot of you have very high expectations for poor old Olórin! 
Sauron was perhaps the mightiest Maia in the service of Melkor, and that's saying a lot. Although his powers are more focused on fear and terror, rather than direct strength like Eönwë's, he is still a very powerful Maia; I would say that only Melian and Eönwë might withstand him..
Whereas it is explicitly stated in the Silmarillion that Olórin was the *wisest* of the Maiar, not the strongest or the most powerful. His strength lay rather in mingling with the Children of Ilúvatar and helping them to withstand Sauron on their own. Obviously, he was no weakling when it came to magic and the like: after all, he did almost kill the Necromancer/Sauron once. But I forget, was he on his own or was the whole White Council there?

As the White he would have whooped Sauron's butt, but I still don't think he could have killed Sauron.


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## BlackCaptain

10,000 strong, I have to disagree. If Gandalf the White couldve beaten Sauron, he would have. So why didnt he? Olorin could beat Sauron, maybey. That would be a good match. But not Gandalf in any form I think. I like how redline put it, they are limited when put in the bodies of old men.

Lantarion, I agree with you the most. Thats what I said in an earlier post, but you sort of, said it clearer. Thanks. 

The next best thing to Melkor vs. The wisest spirit

I choose Sauron


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## redline2200

> _Originally posted by Lantarion _
> As the White he would have whooped Sauron's butt, but I still don't think he could have killed Sauron.



You are contradicting yourself. 
It is already agreed on that Olorin in his true Maia form is way more powerful than any of the Gandalf forms (White or Grey). So if you say he could beat Sauron as Gandalf the White, then think what he could do in his full power as Olorin! 
But then again, you said that we have too high expectations for Olorin, so which one is it?


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## Lotrguy

You guys are forgetting that we have no idea of how powerful they are. Sauron created the ring but I never think he was at his full power whenever he used it. Sauron never was as powerful as he could be, think of Sauron at full power with the ring. A force to be reckoned with. Then we have the wisest mair.

Seriously Gandalf the white would not stand a chance against Sauron. What are you talking about, Tolkien even mentioned himself that Sauron was a far higher order than Gandalf or Saurman, and Gandalf himself seriously isn’t that strong.

Olorin at full power vs Sauron at full power, that cannot be decided. In the end, I think they would both die in a duel. The strongest evil mair vs the wisest mair. Wish Tolkien was alive to say. Anyways this is my final answer, and I think it’s accurate.
Edit: This is my new acc since I forgot my old one.


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## Olorgando

As my user name and avatar should give away, I am a Gandalf fan. But the Gandalf, as the White, kind of settles the question himself: “I am Gandalf, Gandalf the White, but Black is stronger still.” Haven’t been able to locate where it is exactly in the book.

But I like to speculate (aka let my imagination run wild, some would say …  )

So how well informed *is* Gandalf as to Sauron’s actual remaining power? Somewhere in the mythology I remember the statement (I’m guessing in HoMe volume 10 “Morgoth’s Ring”, the latter being “all of Arda”) that by the end of the First Age, Morgoth had so dissipated his enormous, but still finite power so massively that by that time Sauron was actually more powerful than Morgoth. But Sauron limited his deliberate dissipation to a “diddly” piece of jewelry. Big difference.

Deliberate dissipation. After the end of the Second Age, Sauron had two serious involuntary dissipations of power, at the destruction of Númenor, and when he was defeated by the Last Alliance and had his Ring (and finger) cut off by Isildur. How much this weakened him is conjecture, but each case was certainly non-trivial. And he also had one weakening during the First Age, when he had to give up that age’s Minas Tirith (renamed Tol-in-Gaurhoth, “Island of Werewolves) to Lúthien, as mentioned in a post above. But he was not defeated by Beren and Lúthien, Beren was actually a captive in the dungeons needing rescue. He got his thrashing (a massive one, to the brink of the destruction of his physical form) by Huan, the Hound of Valinor (boy, would *that* pooch have come in handy for the Ring Quest!).

By some simple arithmetic, in one scenario, Gandalf would have defeated Sauron. The latter had poured “the greater part” of his native power into the One Ring (nothing less would have sufficed to enable him to dominate the three Elven Rings). So definitely more than half. So if Gandalf wields the One Ring, he has his own native power plus more than half of Sauron’s (there are a few imponderables, but this post is getting more than long enough anyway). But as Gandalf knew, it would have simply ended up as replacing one Dark Lord with another. Not viable.

Some might argue that Gandalf had had his physical form destroyed in the battle with the Balrog, too. Yes, but he was sent back by Eru himself, and with *enhanced* powers. An absolutely unique situation in the history of Arda.

So we have Sauron, without the Ring, with less than half of his remaining (after the above-mentioned dissipations) native power facing a seriously enhanced (perhaps even in his Maia being?) Gandalf. Does that even up the match? GtW still doesn’t seem to think so.

And a last gasp: at least one Maia was definitely, at all times (meaning Sauron’s maximum power) one that Sauron didn’t stand a chance against in a confrontation: Manwë’s herald Eonwë, who led the forces in the War of Wrath against Morgoth at the end of the First Age. But apparently, he was constrained against forcing Sauron to return to Valinor for judgement, and Sauron didn’t volunteer. (This is one point that makes me really mad at Manwë – or even Eru, it makes no difference: *why do the good guy seem always to have one hand tied behind their back?!? 😡*)


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## Alcuin

From the essay “The Istari” in _Unfinished Tales_,


> [There] is a brief and very hasty sketch … telling of a council of the Valar, summoned … by Manwë …, at which it was resolved to send out three emissaries to Middle-earth. "Who would go? For they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and weariness coming from the flesh." But two only came forward: Curumo, who was chosen by Aulë, and Alatar, who was sent by Oromë. Then Manwë asked, where was Olórin? And Olórin, who was clad in grey, and having just entered from a journey had seated himself at the edge of the council, asked what Manwë would have of him. Manwë replied that he wished Olórin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth (and it is remarked in parentheses that "Olórin was a lover of the Eldar that remained," apparently to explain Manwë's choice). But Olórin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwë said that that was all the more reason why he should go…


I think we can safely say that Olórin’s estimation of his power vis-à-vis Sauron’s was accurate.

When the Three Hunters meet Gandalf the White for the first time in Fangorn Forest, when Gimli remarks that Gandalf speaks of Treebeard as a friend though Gimli’s impression was that he was dangerous, Gandalf begins his reply,


> Dangerous! … And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord.


I think this indicates that Sauron is still more powerful that Olórin as Gandalf the White, even enhanced in power as he is upon his return from death. 

And in _Silmarillion_, in the section “Valaquenta”, part “Of the Enemies”, the very last paragraph says,


> Among those of [Morgoth’s] servants that have names, the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron... In his beginning he was of the Maiar of Aulë, and he remained mighty in the lore of that people. In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself. But in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void.


Perhaps there are servants of Morgoth without names, and that one of these is greater than Sauron; but I believe somewhere – I cannot find the citation – Tolkien says that Sauron in his origins was the greatest of the Maiar. 

In _Morgoth’s Ring_, in the section “Myths Transformed”, the essay “Notes on motives in the Silmarillion” beings by saying,



> Sauron was “greater” … in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. … Eventually [Sauron] also squandered his power (of being) in the endeavor to gain control of others. But he was not obliged to expend so much of himself. To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth – hence all things that were born on Earth and lived on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be “stained”. …
> 
> Sauron … inherited [this] “corruption” of Arda, and only spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings; for it was the creatures of earth, in their minds and wills, that he desired to dominate. In this way Sauron was also wiser than Melkor-Morgoth. Sauron was not a beginner of discord; and he probably knew more of the “Music” than did Melkor, whose mind had always been filled with his own plans and devices, and gave little attention to other things. The time of Melkor’s greatest power, therefore, was in the physical beginnings of the World; a vast demiurgic lust for power and the achievement of his own will and designs, on a great scale.


Sauron was Morgoth’s chief lieutenant until Lúthien defeated him at Tol Sirion; then he fled, and it seems he hid even from Morgoth, lest his master humiliate him in his defeat by Melian’s daughter. 

Back to “Valaquenta” for a moment. Eönwë herald of Manwë is described as one “whose might in arms is surpassed by none in Arda.” Olórin is described as “wisest of the Maiar”, and the _Silmarillion_ says that, “he loved the Elves, [and] walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them.” But while it attributes the greatest military might to Eönwë, and the greatest strength to Tulkas the Vala, it does not attribute power to Olórin, but wisdom. 

Only the Ring would have given Olórin greater power than Sauron. In _Letter_ 246, Tolkien writes,


> [O]nly Gandalf might be expected to master [Sauron] – being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the “Mirror of Galadriel’, … it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. … Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron: they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, until they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force. Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated. One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position. It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end.
> 
> Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron. He would have remained “righteous”, but self-righteous. …


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## Lotrguy

Alcuin said:


> From the essay “The Istari” in _Unfinished Tales_, I think we can safely say that Olórin’s estimation of his power vis-à-vis Sauron’s was accurate.
> 
> When the Three Hunters meet Gandalf the White for the first time in Fangorn Forest, when Gimli remarks that Gandalf speaks of Treebeard as a friend though Gimli’s impression was that he was dangerous, Gandalf begins his reply,I think this indicates that Sauron is still more powerful that Olórin as Gandalf the White, even enhanced in power as he is upon his return from death.
> 
> And in _Silmarillion_, in the section “Valaquenta”, part “Of the Enemies”, the very last paragraph says, Perhaps there are servants of Morgoth without names, and that one of these is greater than Sauron; but I believe somewhere – I cannot find the citation – Tolkien says that Sauron in his origins was the greatest of the Maiar.
> 
> In _Morgoth’s Ring_, in the section “Myths Transformed”, the essay “Notes on motives in the Silmarillion” beings by saying,
> 
> Sauron was Morgoth’s chief lieutenant until Lúthien defeated him at Tol Sirion; then he fled, and it seems he hid even from Morgoth, lest his master humiliate him in his defeat by Melian’s daughter.
> 
> Back to “Valaquenta” for a moment. Eönwë herald of Manwë is described as one “whose might in arms is surpassed by none in Arda.” Olórin is described as “wisest of the Maiar”, and the _Silmarillion_ says that, “he loved the Elves, [and] walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them.” But while it attributes the greatest military might to Eönwë, and the greatest strength to Tulkas the Vala, it does not attribute power to Olórin, but wisdom.
> 
> Only the Ring would have given Olórin greater power than Sauron. In _Letter_ 246, Tolkien writes,


Gandalf as ring lord. That’s just Gandalf, let’s imagine olorin out of the old mans body. Olorin would be far worse than Gandalf with the ring. Olorin could be stronger than Sauron even without the ring.


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## Miguel

Alcuin said:


> Perhaps there are servants of Morgoth without names, and that one of these is greater than Sauron



🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔


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## Lotrguy

Sauron was definitely the strongest servant of Morgoth. He wasn’t at his full power when fighting Luthien. Also Huan was the one who really defeated Sauron.


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## Onslaad

Olorin out of Gandalfs body in his true Maia’s form... and Sauron, morgoths best servant.
First of all, all of Olorins power is dedicated to wisdom, in combat, I don’t think wisdom would do any good against Sauron.
Gandalf the grey tied durins bane, and Gandalf the grey was definitely using a lot of power against the balrog that day, since it was necessary to protect Aragorn and those guys. So we now know Gandalf the grey is equal to durins bane, which is pretty sick.
Also Gandalf the white did have to use his full power when fighting in the last book, as “he was sent back until his task was finished”, I think there was only a war left to fight at that point, no more reuniting. Gandalf the white defeated Saurman, but the witch king got him pretty easily. But remember, that’s only Gandalf the white. We now know Gandalf the white is around witch king of angmars power. Now let’s get out the true Maiar Olorin, and match him with the second dark lord Sauron. At this point it’s no longer small foes and olorins wisdom will out-match his combat. Now it’s wisdom vs pure evil. Who will win. As you can see, Olorin can defeat lesser Maiars, that’s for sure, but Morgoths best servant is a little to much.

Just made this account to reply to this discussion lol


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## Olorgando

Onslaad said:


> ... Gandalf the white defeated Saurman, but the witch king got him pretty easily. ...


Ah, no. In the book, they confront each other (both on horses!) at the shattered gate of Minas Tirith, but the Witch-king turned back because the Horns of the Rohirrim made his attention for this to him negative turn of events necessary. That Gandalf vs. Witch-king on a fell beast scene in the film (only EE version?) rates among the lowest pieces of garbage Peter Jackson committed in the films. Gandalf the White would have made confetti out of the Witch-king.


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## Gothmog

Also in the book it states that after the Witch king left the gate:


> At that moment Gandalf stirred and spoke to Shadowfax, and was about to ride through the Gate.


Then while speaking to Pippin:


> Gandalf looked through the gaping Gate, and already on the fields he heard the gathering sound of battle. He clenched his hand. 'I must go ' he said. 'The Black Rider is abroad, and he will yet bring ruin on us. I have no time.'


Then:


> 'Maybe I can,' said Gandalf; 'but if I do, then others will die, I fear. Well, I must come, since no other help can reach him. But evil and sorrow will come of this. Even in the heart of our stronghold the Enemy has power to strike us: for his will it is that is at work.'


It would seem that Gandalf had little doubt of the relative strengths of himself and the Witch king.
PJ lowered the good and mighty then lifted up the mean and evil.


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## Alcuin

Gothmog said:


> PJ lowered the good and mighty then lifted up the mean and evil.


Yes. The most incisive indictment of the films. A fatal flaw reflecting the temperament and character of Hollywood.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner

Whatever the nonsense perpetrated by PJ -- and I have to say he ruined one of the greatest scenes in the book -- it's true that filmmaking requires the maintaining of tension that a perceived imbalance of forces would destroy; but it's also true for fiction. I believe Tolkien made a deliberate choice here, _not _to have a climactic clash between the two, but rather to leave the question unanswered.

_'Old fool!' he said. 'Old fool! This is my hour. Do you not know Death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!' And with that he lifted high his sword and flames ran down the blade._

We may write this off as the arrogant ranting of a deluded being, but I don't think that is what the author intended. Gandalf had been given greater power at this point, _but so had the Witch-King._ The victor in such an encounter remains a matter of doubt -- intentionally.



Gothmog said:


> It would seem that Gandalf had little doubt of the relative strengths of himself and the Witch king.



I must disagree here; the quotes you give, as well as others given earlier, to me indicate a great deal of doubt. Gandalf stood up to the Witch-King at the gate, but as I said, I got no feeling he was about to crush him like a fly. Likewise, he doesn't tell Pippin he can't come with him because he as to go out and destroy the WK; what the lines convey to me is the attitude of someone prepared to sacrifice himself to protect others, even if he is killed in the attempt -- that is, _even if he fails._ We saw him do this in Moria; it's unlikely he was confident of victory there, and I believe the same is true here.

I admit it's a matter of interpretation. 🤔


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## Olorgando

Well, when I think about how the W-k *was* finally destroyed – by a mortal shield-maiden aided by a Hobbit, using a special dagger, for sure, but this was only created by someone from *Cardolan*, not Númenor or even by High Elves. Personally, I think Gandalf would have sliced the W-k like a Salami with Glamdring. He shattered the Balrog’s weapon with it.

Perhaps to clarify: I recall discussions on another JRRT site of what exactly was the fatal stroke to the W-k, who may have been immune from harm from normal, mortal-produced weapons. The consensus, or more likely majority opinion, was that Merry's dagger was decisive: "there lay his weapon, but the blade was smoking like a dry branch that had been thrust in a fire; and as he watched it, it writhed an withered and was consumed (Éowyn's sword, by contrast, "broke sparling into many shards."). … wrought slowly long ago in the North-kingdom, when the Dúnedain were young, … No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a would so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, *breaking the spell* that knit his unseen sinews to his will." Tha gave Éowyn the opportunity to kill the W-k, though both Éowyn and Merry paid for it with lame arms - Éowyn with quite a bit more than that.

I would simply rate Glamdring several notches above that dagger.


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## Gothmog

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I must disagree here; the quotes you give, as well as others given earlier, to me indicate a great deal of doubt. Gandalf stood up to the Witch-King at the gate, but as I said, I got no feeling he was about to crush him like a fly. Likewise, he doesn't tell Pippin he can't come with him because he as to go out and destroy the WK; what the lines convey to me is the attitude of someone prepared to sacrifice himself to protect others, even if he is killed in the attempt -- that is, _even if he fails._ We saw him do this in Moria; it's unlikely he was confident of victory there, and I believe the same is true here.


I did not say that "he was about to crush him like a fly" but to me it seems clear that Galdalf felt he was well able to block any actions that the Witch King tried. Gandalf knew it was very unlikely that he could destroy the Witch King but that he could prevent him from destroying others.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner

Gothmog said:


> I did not say that "he was about to crush him like a fly"


No, you didn't -- I did. I was referring to my previous comments about the Gate encounter. Sorry if it sounded like I was imputing them to you.

I still remain convinced the issue was deliberately left in doubt. We see the doubt even here:

_ 'but if I do, then others will die, I fear'._

The author could have made this an unqualified statement, but chose to add a note of ambiguity, something he does throughout the work, in ways large and small. Whether he does this as a deliberate strategy, or because he himself doesn't know the answers, is a question -- I'd suggest a mixture of both --but the ambiguities remain, to be chewed (and argued!) over.


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## Olorgando

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> … The author could have made this an unqualified statement, but chose to add a note of ambiguity, something he does throughout the work, in ways large and small. Whether he does this as a deliberate strategy, or because he himself doesn't know the answers, is a question -- I'd suggest a mixture of both --but the ambiguities remain, to be chewed (and argued!) over.


Tom Shippey makes a forceful statement that JRRT, in LoTR, with a frequent use of “ors” in many scenes, remains silent on the incompatibility (to Christian orthodoxy generally, not just the now so considered eastern variant of it) of two world views: the “Boethian” (evil is simply an absence of good, a character defect, so to speak) and the “Manichaean” “heresy” (there are, in the extreme thought of as equally potent, but at least on the Lucifer / Satan / (Morgoth) level, actual powers out there that are having real-life effects, something that millions of people, especially after WW II, would resoundingly affirm). While JRRT was very much an orthodox, conservative Roman Catholic, his (also professional!) fascination with what he called the “theory of courage of the North” appears to have held him back very much from what his long-time friend C.S. Lewis wrote about much more openly, apparently in his “Narnia” books, and never mind in his (Ulster-Protestant, in the somewhat disapproving view of JRRT) “Christian apologetics”.

Though Lewis’s “The Screwtape Letters” might be very well worth a read, if they are still to be had.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner

Olorgando said:


> Personally, I think Gandalf would have sliced the W-k like a Salami with Glamdring. He shattered the Balrog’s weapon with it.


Did he? There's a lot going on in that scene, with some mysterious description; in this case:

_There was a ringing clash and a stab of white fire._

Whence came the "stab of white fire"? We can say "from the clash of swords, obviously", but I'd suggest things are, as so often with Tolkien, not so obvious as they seem. Just moments later, we have:

_At that moment Gandalf lifted his staff, and crying aloud he smote the bridge before him. The staff broke asunder and fell from his hand. A blinding sheet of white flame sprang up. The bridge cracked._

Again, whence came the white flame? From the staff? Maybe; it "broke asunder", so we _could _attribute it to Gandalf channeling a huge amount of "wizard-power" through it, "short-ciruiting" it, so to speak. But if we bear in mind that Gandalf is neither a D&D "wizard" nor a comic book superhero, but an _angel,_ we may see things in a different light. For instance, what is the "cry" he gives, as he strikes the bridge? "Shazam!"? "YOLO!"? Or something of the kind? Or is it possibly a _prayer, _a calling upon the Valar -- or even upon Eru? If so, can we automatically rule out the possibility of "outside force"? As I've mentioned before, there's ambiguity here.

As there is with the Balrog's "sword", I think. The Balrog is a fire demon, a seraph like Gandalf, though a fallen one, and the fluid nature of fire is emphasized repeatedly; his fluctuating size, for example, or that source of unending argument, his "wings". My own impression has always been that sword and whip were extentions of himself -- he was able to "extrude" them at need. I could well be wrong there -- it wouldn't surprise me -- but that's the feeling I get.

As for Gandalf's fight with and destruction of, the Balrog, it _could _be -- and often is -- taken as evidence that he would have easily overcome the Witch-King. But again, I feel things are not so simple; that it was an extremely hard-fought battle is clear enough from Gandalf's words alone:

_'We fought far under the living earth, where time is not counted. Ever he clutched me, and ever I hewed him, till at last he fled into dark tunnels.'_

There seems to be little "slicing and dicing" going on there. To underscore the extreme nature of the contest, we can check The Tale of Years:

January
15: The Bridge of Khazad-dum, and the fall of Gandalf.

23: Gandalf pursues the Balrog to the peak of Zirak-zigil.

25: He casts down the Balrog, and passes away.

However much time was spent in pursuit, that's still a long fight. And its ending raises another question:

_'I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin'._

What has become of the vaunted "wings"? Why couldn't he just fly away? Had Gandalf already "killed" him? Or just stunned him, so that the fall killed him? Maybe it was too cold to sprout wings? More ambiguity.

On the subject of swords, I think the difference lies not in "power-levels", but in _kind and purpose._ Glamdring was "made in Gondolin for the Goblin-wars", as Elrond says in The Hobbit, and purposely created for use against orcs -- and, I would think, balrogs. But not, apparently, against Men. The Barrow-blades were made by Men, and the spells woven into them were specifically designed as "dissolution" spells, if I can put it that way, "breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will". We can argue about which blade is "stronger", but I can't help thinking such arguments are somewhat beside the point. The natures of the blades are different; does the fact that the barrow-blades don't appear to function as "orc-alarms" make them lesser? I don't know, but they weren't forged for that purpose.

BTW, Olorgando, the ice/fire idea was raised -- briefly -- on this thread from a few months ago, if you'd like to read it:









Crafting of the Knives from the Barrow Downs


I've become interested in the making of weapons that could do harm to the Witch-King - like the four daggers (used by them as short swords) with which the Hobbits were armed by Tom Bombadil. How were the Dunedain able to make them? Was it done solely by someone from Cardolan, or was there...




www.thetolkienforum.com


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## Gothmog

Tolkien himself clearly disliked all "Christian apologetics" as shown in his Letter 131 to Milton Waldman


> Of course there was and is all the Arthurian world, but powerful as it is, it is imperfectly naturalized, associated with the soil of Britain but not with English; and does not replace what I felt to be missing. For one thing its 'faerie' is too lavish, and fantastical, incoherent and repetitive. For another and more important thing: it is involved in, and explicitly contains the Christian religion.
> 
> For reasons which I will not elaborate, that seems to me fatal. Myth and fairy-story must, as all art, reflect and contain in solution elements of moral and religious truth (or error), but not explicit, not in the known form of the primary 'real' world. (I am speaking, of course, of our present situation, not of ancient pagan, pre-Christian days. And I will not repeat what I tried to say in my essay, which you read.)


And of his own work


> The cycles begin with a cosmogonical myth: the Music of the Ainur. God and the Valar (or powers: Englished as gods) are revealed. These latter are as we should say angelic powers, whose function is to exercise delegated authority in their spheres (of rule and government, not creation, making or re-making). They are 'divine', that is, were originally 'outside' and existed 'before' the making of the world. Their power and wisdom is derived from their Knowledge of the cosmogonical drama, which they perceived first as a drama (that is as in a fashion we perceive a story composed by some-one else), and later as a 'reality'. On the side of mere narrative device, this is, of course, meant to provide beings of the same order of beauty, power, and majesty as the 'gods' of higher mythology, which can yet be accepted – well, shall we say baldly, by a mind that believes in the Blessed Trinity.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner

You're absolutely correct, and I'd emphasize Tolkien's words: "not _explicit". _One reason for the deliberate ambiguities in his work. I'd point out, though, that he did, when expressing regret for the choice of "wizard", explicitly state that "Istari" was meant as a direct analog to Greek _aggelos -- _"messenger"; the literal meaning of our "angel".

Much could be said about his attitude towards "Christian Apologetics" -- in stories; his rather dim view of the Narnia books has often been taken as mere envy of Lewis's facility in churning them out, year after year, as opposed to his own laborious struggles to finish and publish LOTR. This I think is a mistake; it goes much deeper than that, but there's no time for discussion now. Maybe later.


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## Olorgando

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> On the subject of swords, I think the difference lies not in "power-levels", but in _kind and purpose._ Glamdring was "made in Gondolin for the Goblin-wars", as Elrond says in The Hobbit, and purposely created for use against orcs -- and, I would think, balrogs. But not, apparently, against Men.


Um, yes, but taking what Elrond said in that children's (still quite old-school) fairy-tale as a quote seems to me a bit dubious, perhaps except for "made in Gondolin". Which would mean that JRRT had actually done some "corner-painting" on this topic in TH! I have this vague feeling that he had some (perhaps subconscious) resentment towards his masterpiece LoTR, as he had painted lots of corners there, which he could no longer use in the still-unfinished Sil - he had robbed himself, so to speak, of an awful lot of "niggle-room".

But anyway, Elven blades, I would propose, had been made specifically to be effective against the servants of Morgoth - all of them. And If you think of Fingolfin giving Morgoth seven wounds with his sword Ringil that never again healed (properly), against Morgoth himself, even. Even assuming Glamdring was not in the class of Ringil, to salami-slice a subordinate of a subordinate of Morgoth's (and a Ring-wraith could no longer be considered a man) should have been well within its capabilities.


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## Gothmog

Olorgando said:


> But anyway, Elven blades, I would propose, had been made specifically to be effective against the servants of Morgoth - all of them. And If you think of Fingolfin giving Morgoth seven wounds with his sword Ringil that never again healed (properly), against Morgoth himself, even. Even assuming Glamdring was not in the class of Ringil, to salami-slice a subordinate of a subordinate of Morgoth's (and a Ring-wraith could no longer be considered a man) should have been well within its capabilities.


I agree with you that Glamdring and also Orcrist would have been blades capable of wounding or killing the Witch King. However, it is not just swords that are important in such a case. We know that Gandalf was sent back with greater powers as "The White". What we do not know is how much extra freedom of action he was allowed. It might be that in a situation of defending against the Witch kings direct attack Gandalf would be allowed to destroy him while being forbidden from initiating an attack himself.


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## Olorgando

Gothmog said:


> … What we do not know is how much extra freedom of action he was allowed. It might be that in a situation of defending against the Witch kings direct attack Gandalf would be allowed to destroy him while being forbidden from initiating an attack himself.


Yes, I would also guess that he had limits to offensive actions (that old good guys with hand tied behind their backs gripe of mine).

In Book Five, chapter IV “The Siege of Gondor”, describing a sortie of the knights of Dol Amroth to come to the rescue the retreating forces led by Faramir (from that braindead attempt at defending Osgiliath insisted on by Denethor):
“… but one rider outran them all, swift as the wind in the grass: Shadowfax bore him, shining, unveiled once more, a light starting from his upraised hand.
The Nazgûl screeched and swept away, for their Captain was not yet come to challenge the white fire of his foe.”
_(Fat lot of good any challenge would have done him, as I’ve made my opinion quite clear.)_
I’ve sometimes thought “hey, Gandalf, why not go into serious flack mode and blast those creeps and their foul flying critters from the sky, leaving bits of charcoal raining down?!?”

_(Michael T had been with the anti-aircraft forces, even during the Battle of Britain, and later in France and Germany – suffering a good deal of “shell-shock” from it – so he could have given his dad some pointers.)_


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## Elthir

_*Gothmog* wrote: "I agree with you [Olorgando] that Glamdring and also Orcrist would have been blades capable of wounding or killing the Witch King."_ 

I believe that any blade was capable of wounding or killing a Witch-king. But I'll leave that for a good "who killed the Witch-king thread".

As for the thread in question: I have not read it yet


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## Lotrguy

We are getting out of topic here!


Galin said:


> _*Gothmog* wrote: "I agree with you [Olorgando] that Glamdring and also Orcrist would have been blades capable of wounding or killing the Witch King."_
> 
> I believe that any blade was capable of wounding or killing a Witch-king. But I'll leave that for a good "who killed the Witch-king thread".
> 
> As for the thread in question: I have not read it yet


No, only elven makes like Mary’s when he stabbed witch king. It undone the curse and eyown finished him.

We are getting a little off topic here, this is about Olorin and Sauron.


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## Olorgando

_… If you think of Fingolfin giving Morgoth seven wounds with his sword Ringil that never again healed (properly) ..._
So, Gandalf the White, a much-enhanced (by Eru himself) Maia, wielding Glamdring (a First-Age Elven blade) against Sauron without (or even with?) his Ring.
Would Sauron, remembering as he should be able to do that Fingolfin-Morgoth encounter, even dare to leave Barad-dûr? 
Or other thoughts to such an encounter?


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## Elthir

Lotrguy said:


> No, only elven makes like Mary’s when he stabbed witch king. It undone the curse and eyown finished him. We are getting a little off topic here, this is about Olorin and Sauron.



Aha! You took the bait!  

But I'll keep my promise (for now) and save my response for a "who killed the WK thread". Someone will "necromance" one sooner or later. Problem is, I probably already rambled about Merry's dagger in most of them!


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## Squint-eyed Southerner

Probably a good idea. I raised one from the dead on the previous page -- though that was mostly concerned with the barrow-blades themselves.

Lotrguy is mistaken on one point, though: Merry's blade wasn't Elven-make -- it was explicitly stated to have been made by _men._


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## Elthir

But was Merry's blade magic, if made by Men?

And then Sir Galin ran away
nearly wearing feet to knees
And the people shouted yeah 
to see him awkward flee


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## Squint-eyed Southerner

See that quizzical note by JRRT:

"But Numenoreans used 'spells' in the making of swords?"


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## Gothmog

Galin said:


> But was Merry's blade magic, if made by Men?
> 
> And then Sir Galin ran away
> nearly wearing feet to knees
> And the people shouted yeah
> to see him awkward flee


I would say yes


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## Elthir

I always refuse to use the like button but I enjoyed that response 🐾


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## Gothmog

But now. Let us look at what we know about the blades.
From the Fellowship of the Ring:


> For each of the hobbits he chose a dagger, long, leaf-shaped, and keen, of marvellous workmanship, damasked with serpent-forms in red and gold. They gleamed as he drew them from their black sheaths, wrought of some strange metal, light and strong, and set with many fiery stones. Whether by some virtue in these sheaths or because of the spell that lay on the mound, the blades seemed untouched by time, unrusted, sharp, glittering in the sun.
> 'Old knives are long enough as swords for hobbit-people,' he said. 'Sharp blades are good to have, if Shire-folk go walking, east, south, or far away into dark and danger.' Then he told them that these blades were forged many long years ago by Men of Westernesse: they were foes of the Dark Lord, but they were overcome by the evil king of Carn Dûm in the Land of Angmar.


And then from The Two Towers:


> 'Here we find tokens!' He picked out from the pile of grim weapons two knives, leaf-bladed, damasked in gold and red; and searching further he found also the sheaths, black, set with small red gems. 'No orc-tools these!' he said. 'They were borne by the hobbits. Doubtless the Orcs despoiled them, but feared to keep the knives, knowing them for what they are: work of Westernesse, wound about with spells for the bane of Mordor.


Now, the use of "Magical Spells" does seem out of place and too "Elvish" for the work of Men. What then could be the meaning of:


> No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.


The "Spells" most likely were the damasked serpents and possibly runes marked on the blades that the Orcs recognised. What made the blades so special could only be the "Strange metal" of which they were made. Perhaps there is actually something about the metal that would interfere with the connection of ring and Wraith when it penetrated the body and though not fatal in itself the blow to the knee made the Witch king vulnerable to the force of Eowyn's strike.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner

Mithril is one possibility discussed in Valandil's thread. As are the "serpent-forms".

The line "no other blade" is one factor making me skeptical about "ranking" swords -- or if this is insisted upon, the Barrow-blades would be at the top -- at least as far as efficacy against the Witch-King is concerned.

BTW -- embedded in Valandil's thread is a link to an older discussion on the nature of "magic" in Tolkien, if anyone is interested.


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## Elthir

So we're doing this now? Here? 😇

My interpretation:_ "No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will." _

As I baited above, I think any sword could have "killed" the Witch-king . . . but you get one strike per sword, so it better be good. And if you only wound Mr. King, it would be handy to have a blade with extra potency. Also, if you break the connection (a "knitting together") between a man's will and his sinews, said man cannot make ("will" as a verb) his limbs move . . . in this case, to avoid or defend against a lethal strike from Eowyn.

To my mind, after Merry's strike, Eowyn doesn't exactly react with lightning speed, but the Nazgul-lord cannot will himself to his own defense. He is made "vulnerable" in this sense, like a deer in headlights. I note also Tolkien's statement from the "Zimmerman letter". "Sam does not 'sink his blade into the Ringwraith's thigh', nor does his thrust save Frodo's life. (If he had, the result would have been much the same as in III 117-20: the Wraith would have fallen down and the sword would have been destroyed.) JRRT

I realize one could say: _and_ become vulnerable to regular blades is simply unsaid here, but I think it's simpler. Merry's wound was bitter indeed, it not only hurt, it allowed an otherwise (arguably) defeated Eowyn to _struggle_ up and "kill" the Witch-king, who by his mere presence had already caused battle-trained men to flee from him in terror.

Anyway, that's the short version of my opinion!


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## Squint-eyed Southerner

Galin said:


> So we're doing this now? Here? 😇


So it would appear. 

As for "any sword", I agree, with this proviso: it could be done only _after _the application of the spell in (or on) the Barrow-blade. The text, it seems to me, makes this clear.


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## Elthir

Ah but that proviso makes things notably different from my opinion. Your interpretation is no doubt popular; I can't remember a thread in which I haven't encountered it, but for me, any car could kill a deer, even in the day (without headlights to break the connection between its will and sinews). In other words, if that's what Merry's blade did (as I think), it doesn't necessarily need to happen first.

It did happen first. And in this scenario, it needed to happen in the sense that Eowyn was arguably done for otherwise.

I'm not implying that you didn't understand my earlier post SeS, but I don't wanna do laundry right now, so I explained my position again.

And why am I picking on deer?

Sorry deer.


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## Gothmog

Galin said:


> As I baited above, I think any sword could have "killed" the Witch-king . . . but you get one strike per sword, so it better be good. And if you only wound Mr. King, it would be handy to have a blade with extra potency. Also, if you break the connection (a "knitting together") between a man's will and his sinews, said man cannot make ("will" as a verb) his limbs move . . . in this case, to avoid or defend against a lethal strike from Eowyn.


I agree that any sword could have killed the Witch King had it struck the heart or other immediately fatal blow, I think that non-fatal strikes with other swords would not have the same effect as the Barrow-blade did.


Galin said:


> realize one could say: _and_ become vulnerable to regular blades is simply unsaid here, but I think it's simpler. Merry's wound was bitter indeed, it not only hurt, it allowed an otherwise (arguably) defeated Eowyn to _struggle_ up and "kill" the Witch-king, who by his mere presence had already caused battle-trained men to flee from him in terror.


Agreed. I only point out that the only real difference between the Barrow-blades and other swords is the metal they are made from. So if "no other blade" could do so then it is most likely this that caused the wound to be so effective at that time.

Perhaps through an "Allergic" reaction?
Iron is in some myths to have great effect on certain creatures.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner

If the metal from which they were made is the only factor, the spell emphasised in the text becomes meaningless. In which case, why did the author bother putting it in?


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## Gothmog

If we look at the Myths, Legends and History of our world, we can see that "spells", "runes of power", and other marks were spoken during the making or placed on the blades and hilts of swords in the belief that they increased the power or efficacy of the blades especially against "Supernatural" foes.
While such beliefs were widespread it was not the "Spells" and such that was effective but the metals and methods of forging improved the blades.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner

True enough, but I find trying to rationalize a fictional universe in terms of the real universe unproductive. However, if you find a historical example of a blade, magical or otherwise, used effectively against an undead being in our universe, be sure to let us know.


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## Elthir

I also think this kind of invulnerability is too powerful. Even Sauron had reason to fear "non-barrow" blades. And for me, it's coincidence enough that Merry should have in his possession a weapon that could do Mr. King great harm -- even if not struck lethally -- and "too much" coincidence (admittedly a subjective opinion, of course) to have Merry wield the only type of blade that makes a "wraith" (but they have unseen sinews) suddenly vulnerable to other weapons.

The invulnerable notion, I think, might also open a door to a question like: why couldn't the Nine alone wipe out [fill in high number] Gondorians? Plus, the Witch-king feared Boromir (the other one). Why should he? In my opinion because Boromir (again, not that Boromir) is noted to have a strong will, among his other talents. You need to be able to stand against unreasoning fear, keep your wits about, and fight well.

You don't need a special blade, but it sure does help. It would help to carry as many blades as you can, too. Again, you get one lethal shot with Mr. King.

And take a little Hobbit luck too, if possible 🍀

_________________________________________________

I realize Gandalf's response to Legolas (about Legolas' shooting at a Nazgul, and so on) seems problematic with respect to my argument. But I'll leave that response on hold. Maybe no one will bring it up if I don't mention it.


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## Gothmog

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> True enough, but I find trying to rationalize a fictional universe in terms of the real universe unproductive. However, if you find a historical example of a blade, magical or otherwise, used effectively against an undead being in our universe, be sure to let us know.


Since Tolkien's world is based in part on many myths of our real world it is not that unproductive.
There are many examples of weapons used against those who were Believed to be Undead. There is a big difference between what someone believes to be true and what is true.


Galin said:


> I also think this kind of invulnerability is too powerful. Even Sauron had reason to fear regular blades. And for me, it's "coincidence" enough that Merry should have in his possession a weapon that could do Mr. King great harm -- even if not struck lethally -- and "too much" coincidence (admittedly a subjective opinion, of course) to have Merry wield the only type of blade that makes a "wraith" (but they have unseen sinews) suddenly vulnerable to other weapons.


I did not say that the Witch king was invulnerable to other blades. However, Eowyn was not able to get in an effective attack until the strike by Merry. The Barrow-blade seems to have made him vulnerable to Eowyn's final attack, not to her blade which shattered on impact delivering the fatal blow. Did the Barrow-blade kill him? No. Would he have recovered after it was removed had he not been struck down by Eowyn? Probably. I think that had he been facing some of the other warriors on the field there would have been no need of Merry's blade, but Eowyn, despite her great heart, did not have the physical strength to destroy him on her own. Also there was the prophesy to consider.

As for "coincidence". Bilbo was "Meant to find the Ring" and "Frodo was Meant to have it". In Middle-earth there was a lot of influence from "outside" that helped things along so "coincidence" is not really an issue in one of the major events of the battle.


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## Grond

Gothmog said:


> I would say yes


I would say no.


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## Grond

Gothmog said:


> I agree that any sword could have killed the Witch King had it struck the heart or other immediately fatal blow, I think that non-fatal strikes with other swords would not have the same effect as the Barrow-blade did.
> 
> Agreed. I only point out that the only real difference between the Barrow-blades and other swords is the metal they are made from. So if "no other blade" could do so then it is most likely this that caused the wound to be so effective at that time.
> 
> Perhaps through an "Allergic" reaction?
> Iron is in some myths to have great effect on certain creatures.


Any sword, as long as it was wielded by a woman.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner

Gothmog said:


> There are many examples of weapons used against those who were Believed to be Undead. There is a big difference between what someone believes to be true and what is true.


The biggest difference is between the Primary and Secondary worlds: many things _believed _ to be true in the former actually _are _true in the latter. The Men of the White Mountains _really were _cursed to a living death, until they fulfilled their oath, whatever they may have believed about the matter.

And, if we are to take the author seriously, we have to accept that there _really were _ spells "wound round" the Barrow-blades, just as we we accept the many other marvelous objects and events in the story. They are part of the conventions of romance, and must be accepted as such, if we are to enjoy the story.

Otherwise we are in the position of someone who can't enjoy Hamlet, because he doesn't believe in ghosts. We may rationalize the ghost as some sort of psychological projection on Hamlet's part, as "realist" mimetic fiction tends to do, but I doubt it's what Shakespeare had in mind. It's certainly not what Tolkien had in mind.


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## Gothmog

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> The biggest difference is between the Primary and Secondary worlds: many things _believed _ to be true in the former actually _are _true in the latter. The Men of the White Mountains _really were _cursed to a living death, until they fulfilled their oath, whatever they may have believed about the matter. And, if we are to take the author seriously, we have to accept that there really were spells "wound round" the Barrow-blades, just as we we accept the many other marvelous objects and events in the story. They are part of the conventions of romance, and must be accepted as such, if we are to enjoy the story. Otherwise we are in the position of someone who can't enjoy Hamlet, because he doesn't believe in ghosts. We may rationalize the ghost as some sort of psychological projection on Hamlet's part, as "realist" mimetic fiction tends to do, but I doubt it'swhat Shakespeare had in mind.


Strange, I was not aware that I did not enjoy the story or that I do not take the author seriously because I did not feel that the "Spells" were necessarily actually effective magic. That the Barrow-blades were special was made clear from the very first time we see them described and there was no mention of the spells on the blades by Tom or the author at that time. I found myself in the position of someone who enjoys the story because somethings, such as the Oath-breakers have to be accepted just as they are while other parts are not so clear-cut and allows for "Applicability" whereby the reader can bring into the story their own views. For example, I know for certain beyond question that Durin's Bane did not have wings and neither did any other Balrog. I am also sure that Men had a form of "Magic" that is abilities that the Elves did not possess and could not understand. To me the "Spells" seemed to Elvish an idea but that did not spoil my enjoyment in any way and in fact was something that allowed me to enjoy it all the more.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner

Very good -- I'm glad not being able to take the author at his word didn’t spoil your enjoyment.


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## Gothmog

Where exactly have I not been able to take the author at his word??


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## Squint-eyed Southerner

Nowhere -- _if _ you believe he didn't intend his talk about spells on the Barrow-blades to mean actual, as opposed to 'pretend', spells.

Otherwise, there.


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## Gothmog

From letter 131:


> I have not used 'magic' consistently, and indeed the Elven-queen Galadriel is obliged to remonstrate with the Hobbits on their confused use of the word both for the devices and operations of the Enemy, and for those of the Elves. I have not, because there is not a word for the latter (since all human stories have suffered the same confusion).


Seems that I have taken the author at his word even though I interpreted Spells the way that it appeared to me before reading what his position was on "magic".


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## Olorgando

Galin said:


> ... You need to be able to stand against unreasoning fear, keep your wits about, and fight well.


_Now I'll tangent off this tangent (or OT from this OT) a bit (once the dam is broken …)._ 

That unreasoning fear, terror even, that the W-k is able to spread (and at some distance too, apparently) has occasionally made me grumble.
Another bit in TT too. In Book Three, chapter II "The Riders of Rohan" Aragorn says:
"... and I am weary as I have seldom been before, weary as no Ranger should be with a clear trail to follow. There is some will that lends speed to our foes and sets an unseen barrier before us: a weariness that is in the heart more than in the limb."
"Truly!" said Legolas. "That I have known since first we came down from the Emyn Muil. For the will is not behind us but before us." He pointed away over the land of Rohan into the darkling West under the sickle moon.
"Saruman!" muttered Aragorn. "But he shall not turn us back! …"

So Saruman is at this too, in some fashion. What makes me grumble is the "fact" that apparently the good Istari - it's basically Gandalf left, though Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli are still a bit away from reuniting with Gandalf the White - are not allowed to counteract this definitely supernatural (from a human standpoint) ability against which only a handful of very exceptional humans seem to be able to stand up to (I'm also talking about the W-k's spreading terror at a distance again). There is one glimpse of something of the sort, when Gandalf leads the sortie to rescue the returning Faramir before Minas Tirith, and scatters the (lesser) flying Nazgûl with the white light emanating from his hand. So why not allow him to counteract the W-k's clearly supernatural emanation of fear (as en extension of his master Sauron) with some countering "measures"? Like that change in wind that started to dissipate the hideous clouds Sauron has caused Mount Doom to spew out, darkening the sky before the Battle of the Pelennor Fields.? Ghân-buri-Ghân noticed this changed wind while leading the Rohirrim by devious paths to Minas Tirith, it also helped speed the flotilla Aragorn had captured, and in the end the rain it brought quenched the fires of Minas Tirith. After decades of reading, I clearly see Ulmo having a hand in this (he rarely was in Valinor anyway, it seems, and disagreed with Manwë's decision to hide Valinor behind all of those confusing islands and mists and what not after the rebellion exile of the Noldor - and apparently to have his way against this decision - though perhaps Manwë (and Mandos) were in tacit, silent agreement with Ulmo's actions).


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## Elthir

Gothmog said:


> I did not say that the Witch king was invulnerable to other blades. However, Eowyn was not able to get in an effective attack until the strike by Merry. The Barrow-blade seems to have made him vulnerable to Eowyn's final attack, not to her blade which shattered on impact delivering the fatal blow. [snip]




I agree. My post that you responded to with this was not directed at you, but to anyone who might hold the "invulnerable view", an interpretation that I've met with over the years.



> As for "coincidence". Bilbo was "Meant to find the Ring" and "Frodo was Meant to have it". In Middle-earth there was a lot of influence from "outside" that helped things along so "coincidence" is not really an issue in one of the major events of the battle.




And there's coincidence here that I fully accept. My subjective opinion has to do with the art of storytelling here, and as I said, I think there's enough coincidence in this scene already. So it's more about measure in this instance, for me. And I have the temerity to imagine that Tolkien agrees with me, by providing a blade that's notably potent even if not lethally struck, rather than provide a blade that can actually make the Witch-king suddenly vulnerable to other weapons (again, if not lethally struck).

In short, Merry happens to have a potent blade for this fight, but not the only weapon that can connect with wraith sinews.

We appear to agree that the WK was made "vulnerable" _in the sense_ of giving Eowyn her opportunity.


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## Gothmog

Galin said:


> We appear to agree that the WK was made "vulnerable" _in the sense_ of giving Eowyn her opportunity.


I Agree


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## Gothmog

Olorgando said:


> After decades of reading, I clearly see Ulmo having a hand in this (he rarely was in Valinor anyway, it seems, and disagreed with Manwë's decision to hide Valinor behind all of those confusing islands and mists and what not after the rebellion exile of the Noldor - and apparently to have his way against this decision - though perhaps Manwë (and Mandos) were in tacit, silent agreement with Ulmo's actions).


Or perhaps not so silent. It seems that Eru was involved in some parts so it may be that Manwë was also helping a little more than we are told. After all, the winds are his province more than Ulmo's.


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## Olorgando

Mmmmhyes, but then there's Ossë, Maia of Ulmo, given lordship of the inner seas. Loves storms and the roaring of waves, according to Foster. Ah, in the Sil ("Valaquenta", "Of the Maiar") it says "... rejoices in the winds of Manwë; …". But the clouds whose rain finally quenched the fires of Minas Tirith (and, as I forgot in my above post, provided Frodo and Sam with some clean water in Mordor) belong to Ulmo (with some inadvertent help from Melkor?). I still remain a bit grouchy at the Valar / Maiar set, though, as they botched the clean-up job in Middle-earth at the awakening of the Elves, never mind that they didn't go after Melkor when he escaped them later, and then set up Valinor as a quite seriously isolated kind of "gated community". And though they did after much delay finally (or for a long time) get rid of Morgoth, they again botched the clean-up job badly, leaving Sauron, at least one Balrog (so baddie Maiar) and several dragons for Humans and the Avari to deal with.


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## Gothmog

If we were privy to the councils of the Valar during the battles at that time, it is likely that Manwë and others put in some effort to help but that Ulmo was the instigator of this effort as he was the Valar that never abandoned the Elves and Men even during the time of Exile for the Noldor. He was the one that argued for the Valar to do their job from the beginning then ensured Earendil would be born and reach Valinor to make them do so. Is it likely that he would then have forgotten the people of Middle-earth just because Melkor was no longer around?


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## Alcuin

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Please come back soon, and expand on this! I hadn't considered it before, but the possible symmetries are tantalizing:
> 
> _'There are evil things written on this hilt,' he said; 'though maybe your eyes cannot see them.'_


Working backwards, the first pertinent passage is in _Reader’s Companion_ at the end of the chapter for “Knife in the Dark”. Hammond and Scull recite Tolkien’s notes on the chapter:


> It is a strange thing that the camp was not watched while darkness lasted of the night Oct. 6-7, … so that [the Witch-king] … lost track of the Ring. … [The Witch-king] … had been shaken by the fire of Gandalf, and began to perceive that the mission on which Sauron had sent him was one of great peril to himself both by the way, and on his return to his Master (if unsuccessful);… [A]bove all the timid and terrified Bearer had resisted him, had dared to strike at him with an enchanted sword made by his own enemies long ago for his destruction. Narrowly it had missed him. How he had come by it – save in the Barrows of Cardolan. Then he was in some way mightier than the B[arrow]-wight…
> 
> Escaping a wound that would have been as deadly to him as the Mordor-knife to Frodo (as was proved at the end), he withdrew and hid for a while…


So from this passage we learn that 
(1) the barrow-blade is indeed an “enchanted sword made by [the Dúnedain] for [the Witch-king’s] destruction,” and
(2) “a wound [from] that [sword] would have been as deadly [to the Witch-king] as the Mordor-knife was to Frodo (as was proved at the end).”​
Hold onto those two ideas and consider what Gandalf told Frodo when he awoke in Rivendell.


> You were beginning to fade. … The wound was overcoming you at last. A few more hours and you would have been beyond our aid. … [T]here was some fragment of the blade still in the closed wound. But it could not be found until last night. Then Elrond removed a splinter. … It has been melted. [I]t seems that Hobbits fade very reluctantly. I have known strong warriors of the Big People who would quickly have been overcome by that splinter… They tried to pierce your heart with a Morgul-knife which remains in the wound. If they had succeeded, you would have become like they are, only weaker and under their command. You would have become a wraith…


So here are some more ideas to hold onto.
(3) The Morgul-knife is meant to cause regular people to _fade_, to enter into the Unseen world. In other words, it’s necromancy, sorcery.(_Necromancy_ is magic concerning the dead. _Sorcery_ is what we call commonly “Black magic,” what Tolkien calls Morgul in Sindarin.) Remember, Sauron is the Necromancer, and the Witch-king his chief servant was “a great king and sorcerer … of old.” 
(4) At the end of the _fading_ process, mortals become wraiths.
(5) Hobbits resist _fading_.​
Now let’s go back further to Gandalf’s first discussion with Frodo about the Ring.


> A mortal … who keeps one of the Great Rings does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings. Yes, sooner or later – later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last – sooner or later the dark power will devour him.


So here’s another idea: 
(6) The Great Rings do the same thing to mortals as the Morgul-knife: it makes them _fade_.​
Let’s gather another important point:
(7) Aragorn tells the Hobbits that “all blades perish that pierce that dreadful King.”​
Now let’s jump ahead to the Witch-king’s confrontation with Éowyn and Merry and examine the oft-quoted passage of much interest:


> [G]lad would he have been to know [the] fate [of the sword of the Barrow-downs] who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dúnedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.


So here’s the last little tidbit: 
(8) The Barrow-blade undid the _fading_ process by “breaking the spell”, making the Witch-king vulnerable to a blow by Éowyn’s sword, _which doesn’t seem to be magic_, just a normal sword.​
One of the primary original purposes of the Great Rings, from point of view of the Elves who forged them, was at least in part to prevent their _fading_ while they remained in Middle-earth. The effect on Men, however, was to make them _fade_. The Witch-king used a Morgul-knife on Boromir I, Steward of Gondor, and though he mostly recovered from the wound, he died young for a Dúnadan of that time. There can be little doubt that the Witch-king also used Morgul-knives in his long war to destroy what remained of Arnor: hence Elrond’s and Aragorn’s knowledge of the blades, as well as Aragorn’s knowledge that “all blades perish that pierce that dreadful King.” In the Second Age, Elrond led the surviving Mírdain, the Elven-smiths, of Eregion to safety in the Mountains and founded Rivendell. It seems that at least one of the Dúnedain learned what was happening to his fellows because of the dreadful weapons, and he fashioned a counter-weapon: something that would undo the necromantic spells of the Great Rings sufficient to render a Ringwraith vulnerable to normal weaponry, to _unfade_ it; that may or may not have required the assistance of or knowledge from the surviving Mírdain in Rivendell: it is probably inconsequential to the story, but they were available. (These are probably the same Elven-smiths who reforged Narsil into Andúril.) The Witch-king could not unmake these weapons, so he gathered them together and put them in a great barrow (the tomb of the last Prince of Cardolan) guarded by a barrow-wight. But he either never knew about or forgot about Tom Bombadil, who did know about the swords (or daggers), opened the barrow, and drove out the barrow-wight. So when Merry struck the Witch-king with his barrow-blade, the effect of the blade was to _unfade_ him sufficiently that Éowyn could kill him: just the opposite of the effect of the Morgul-knife on Frodo. 

A few loose ends. Bilbo felt _all thin and stretched_: Gandalf said that was a sign the Ring was getting control of him. Gollum was altogether _thin and stretched_ even down to his cackling laugh, but he had never yet become a wraith. Another loose end: “all blades perish that pierce that dreadful King.” That seems to be an effect of either the Witch-king’s Ring or his sorcery, or some combination of the two. It was still in effect even after Merry stabbed him: Éowyn’s sword disintegrated when she struck him, but only after delivering a “mortal” wound to his _faded_ body. And Nazgûl were exceedingly tough: Legolas shot one out of the sky along the Anduin, and though it fell quite a distance, it wasn’t killed. (Nazgûl didn’t like fire, but that might be because it was not only painful, but it may have taken them some time to recover from the effects of burns.) And finally, Frodo used one of these blades on the barrow-wight, severing its hand, breaking the blade up to the hilt, but its effect on the barrow-wight seems to have been to injure it and make it angry (it snarled at him): the effect on the Witch-king was rather more dramatic. 

At the end, I think we can definitely say that 
the barrow-blade was made by Dúnedain, and
the barrow-blade was, in fact, “enchanted”.
If we take Tolkien’s word for it, the effect on the Witch-king was very like the effect of his Morgul-knife on Frodo.
The _fading_/_unfading_ is obviously speculative on my part, but if we want to speculate on a mechanism for how this might happen, it fits with what we know from the story. 

That leaves the question of how the Dúnadan smith learned how to accomplish this. To answer that, I propose that 
the Dúnedain of Arnor had unfortunately experienced Morgul-knives and their effects, possibly obtaining one or more examples.
They had access to any surviving Mírdain in Rivendell.
Saruman was not always an enemy. Like Sauron, he was one of the folk of Aulë the Smith, and might have lent the Dúnedain some assistance.
And finally, let’s face it: the Dúnedain were pretty smart on their own account.
I’ve really got to get back to the salt mines.


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## Lotrguy

Yes, I am proved wrong again. So who did we think won? Sauron or Olorin. Based on all of the comments and voting, I think we are leaning towards Sauron. Also, I do not know much about swords, so if this threads question has changed, I'm out.


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## ZehnWaters

Lotrguy said:


> Yes, I am proved wrong again. So who did we think won? Sauron or Olorin. Based on all of the comments and voting, I think we are leaning towards Sauron. Also, I do not know much about swords, so if this threads question has changed, I'm out.


Sauron is implied to be incredibly powerful for a Maia. We know that the Ainur are on a sliding scale with the Valar having a notable gap between their weakest and the Maiar's strongest, so it's entirely possible that Sauron was on that near-Vala end of the spectrum. Olórin seems to be skilled but he stated that Sauron terrified him.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner

Yay! I did it again!


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