# Elwë's and Olwë's Indisposition



## Maedhros (Apr 23, 2002)

Why were the Teleri's kings indisposed to help their "friends" the Noldor. 
First Olwë refuses to grant passage to their friends the Noldor to ME and then Elwë refuses the Noldorian princes access to his kindom in ME save the sons of his kin Finarfin. 
Elwë was supposed to be the "best friend" of Finwë, yet he offers no help to his sons. 
Olwë's refusal was before the kinslaying and Elwë's refusal was before he had knowledge of the Kinslaying.
What's wrong with these people.


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## Maedhros (Apr 28, 2002)

*Sad*

I think this is sad. There a lots of LOTR forums, and in one where there is almost no discussion, i posted this thread and received one of the most fascinating discussions around, yet in this forum that is supposed to be entertaining and have knowlegeable people it's not.
Go figure.


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## chrysophalax (Apr 28, 2002)

OK.......don't get me started on this one! 
Different people , different interests, but I think you know my feelings on this issue.


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## Eonwe (Apr 28, 2002)

I posted on the other one. Should I post it here? ??

I hope I am not a part of this problem. I have been pretty busy lately. It frustrates me too. I think when there was more controversy, some people posted much more.


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## Elfarmari (Apr 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Maedhros _
> *
> What's wrong with these people. *



IMHO, the Teleri did not support the Noldor's rebellion against the Valar and did not want to take part. I really don't personally know much about this topic, so hopefully someone more knowledgeable will post!


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## Maedhros (Apr 28, 2002)

> . I think when there was more controversy, some people posted much more.


I was not referring to lotronline.


> the Teleri did not support the Noldor's rebellion against the Valar and did not want to take part.


But that's only part of the Teleri, when the Noldor arrived in ME, they were shunned by Elwe, who was supposed to be the best friend of Finwe. Elwe didn't at that time know of the Kinslaying at Alqualonde, so I have concluded that he was JEALOUS of the Noldorian princes that came from Valinor to ME.


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## Mormegil (Apr 28, 2002)

I think you have a point there.
Since the other Elves had left ME, Thingol was the most powerful Elf around. He was the only king. When the Noldorin princes showed up he was worried that they were muscleing in on his turf. I also think that he was scared that they would incite the wrath of Melkor, (which of course was correct).
If I was Thingol, I wouldn't have welcomed or helped them either. Especially once he heard of the kinslaying.


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## Maedhros (Apr 28, 2002)

> Especially once he heard of the kinslaying.


After the Kinslaying it makes sense, but before it's absolutely ridiculous and stupid not to help them. They had a common enemy, and the princes were the sons of his supossed best friend.


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## Eonwe (Apr 28, 2002)

> I was not referring to lotronline


Neither was I. When this forum had a certain member, some would follow his posts regardless of how silly they were and post against them ad nauseum. Now its swung the other way IMO. I would like some of them to come back and post on LotR topics. I don't think we need controversy in order to liven things up.

Back to the thread:

I really think that Olwe probably did owe Feanor a favor, but I think he was completely against doing something against the Valar's wishes. I think it is odd that he can somehow resist Feanor's voice, whereas most of the Noldor cannot!

And Elwe apparently thought that the upstart Noldor were not welcome and that he could handle things on his own with Melian. He could perhaps have been wiser and at least welcomed them in the fight against Morgoth.

Maedhros -- isn't there a small difference at least with Thingol, in that he didn't have a wish to fight directly with Morgoth, whereas the Noldor did? I think he probably at least knew that Morgoth had come back, and thought gee elves from Aman are following, looks suspicious?


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## Maedhros (Apr 29, 2002)

> Maedhros -- isn't there a small difference at least with Thingol, in that he didn't have a wish to fight directly with Morgoth, whereas the Noldor did? I think he probably at least knew that Morgoth had come back, and thought gee elves from Aman are following, looks suspicious?


Eonwe, there is a difference between helping them, but not receiving the Noldorian princes execpt for their relatives of Finarfin is just WRONG.


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## ¤-Elessar-¤ (Apr 29, 2002)

Don't you think that maybe Thingol had heard of the landing of the Ships of Feanor, that maybe he had heard of their great burning, and of Feanor leaving his kin on the other side of that great ice? Maybe Milian(sp) told Thingol to be wary of Feanor and his sons. She was a Maiar, and probably knew of the Kinslaying, the oath, and the curse of Mandos. Or, Maybe Thingol had spies about, and saw the wrath and hatred as the Noldor burned through the earth on the trail of the orcs, up until the fall of Feanor, and his urging of his sons to fulfil the oath and avenge their father. Maybe, just maybe, he was more scared of the oath than anything. For indeed, did that oath not in the end bring to his downfall, and the downfall of his son also?


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## Maedhros (Apr 29, 2002)

> Maybe Milian(sp) told Thingol to be wary of Feanor and his sons.


Then what about Fingolfin and his sons?


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## chrysophalax (Apr 29, 2002)

Clarify. What about them? Which specific incident?


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## Maedhros (Apr 29, 2002)

Thingol never invited Fingolfin, nor his sons to his realm.


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## Eonwe (Apr 29, 2002)

I still don't get it. Why would he? Effectively, they are from another world, Aman, that he chose not to be in.


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## Maedhros (Apr 29, 2002)

They were supposed to be the sons of his friend Finwe. There is this thing called common courtesy.


> Now when their journey was near its end, as has been told, the people of the Teleri rested long in East Beleriand, beyond the River Gelion; and at that time many of the Noldor still lay to the westward, in those forests that were afterwards named Neldoreth and Region. Elwë, lord of the Teleri, went often through the great woods to seek out Finwë his friend in the dwellings of the Noldor


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## BluestEye (May 2, 2002)

*Elwe and Olwe*

All of you are trying to guess things that are actualy written down in the Sil itself  
Why go around when you have the answear written in the book you are discussing about?
Mormegil, most of all you were right in your post:

"Since the other Elves had left ME, Thingol was the most powerful Elf around. He was the only king. When the Noldorin princes showed up he was worried that they were muscleing in on his turf. I also think that he was scared that they would incite the wrath of Melkor, (which of course was correct)." (Mormegil)

Elwe feared that the Noldor will take his lands, because untill they arrived he was officialy King of all Beleriand.
Also he guessed that there was some connection between Morgoth's retreat to Middle-Earth and the Noldor's sudden arrival.
Olwe, king of the Teleri, feared to anger the Valar. That's all. The Teleri lived outside Tuna and didn't wan't want to meddle in the deeds of the Noldor. So when the Noldor angered the Valar, Olwe and his people asked them not to get them involved in this thing and asked Feanor to leave them in peace. THEN Feanor started the Kinslaying...

All this is written in the Sil, I can give you a quote of this later if you want (I'm at work so I don't have much time)

Another thing that you haven't mentioned is the fact that Elwe and Olwe were brothers, so maybe their fate was bound together...

BluestEye


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## Maedhros (May 2, 2002)

> But the Teleri were unmoved by aught that he could say. They were grieved indeed at the going of their kinsfolk and long friends, but would rather dissuade them than aid them; and no ship would they lend, nor help in the building, against the will of the Valar. As for themselves, they desired now no other home but the strands of Eldamar, and no other lord than Olwë, prince of Alqualondë. And he had never lent ear to Morgoth, nor welcomed him to his land, and he trusted still that Ulmo and the other great among the Valar would redress the hurts of Morgoth, and that the night would pass yet to a new dawn. Then Fëanor grew wrathful, for he still feared delay; and hotly he spoke to Olwë. 'You renounce your friendship, even in the hour of our need,' he said. 'Yet you were glad indeed to receive our aid when you came at last to these shores, fainthearted loiterers, and wellnigh emptyhanded. In huts on the beaches would yon be dwelling still, had not the Noldor carved out your haven and toiled upon your walls.'


The Teleri chose the Valar instead of his kin. Simple as that.


> Elwe feared that the Noldor will take his lands, because untill they arrived he was officialy King of all Beleriand.


It's obvious that he was jealous of the Noldor and he didn't have the courtesy of allowing a meeting between him and Fingolfin. What a great Lord.


> Another thing that you haven't mentioned is the fact that Elwe and Olwe were brothers, so maybe their fate was bound together...


And they both turned their backs to the Noldor.


> Why go around when you have the answear written in the book you are discussing about?


Because we are trying to find the reasons behind it and not be simple automatons that only read the book without finding the meaning and the thinking behind the characters.


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## chrysophalax (May 2, 2002)

Is it wrong to refuse aid to someone if you feel strongly that their path is truly in the wrong? Would you not then be assisting said person/persons out of guilt or coersion rather than love and friendship against your will and/or conscience? While I can identify with Feanor's sense of urgency and his desperation to return and establish lands, etc., I feel his methods were totally high-handed. Simply being the greatest creation among the Elves does not give him the right to insult his kin in such a manner. It only shows his self-centeredness and lack of any care at all for them. Why then should they help him? Merely to re-pay for assistance rendered by the Noldor at an earlier time? While I understand that they did indeed owe the Noldor a debt, must it have been re-paid at such a price and to someone to held them in no regard except to provide him with speedy passage, What assurance did they have that he wouldn't have turned on them or have some evil thought come into his head and destroy the ships anyway? He wasn't exactly acting in a manner that would inspire confidence in his reason.


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## Maedhros (May 2, 2002)

> What assurance did they have that he wouldn't have turned on them or have some evil thought come into his head and destroy the ships anyway? He wasn't exactly acting in a manner that would inspire confidence in his reason.


Very simple, If he had given his word, that was enough. A noldorian prince cannot go back on his word.


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## chrysophalax (May 2, 2002)

Cannot, or supposedly has the strength of will not to? Does this somehow justify unjust treatment and the commandeering of someone's most precious possessions in order to get your own way? Why are feanor's desires so much "higher" than those of others of his race?
Who died and made HIM Eru?


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## Maedhros (May 2, 2002)

> Does this somehow justify unjust treatment and the commandeering of someone's most precious possessions in order to get your own way? Why are feanor's desires so much "higher" than those of others of his race?


The Teleri could have offered them a kind of a Ferry service. If Feanor had given his word, he would have stick to it. His desires were important because they killed his father, the king of the Noldor.


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## chrysophalax (May 2, 2002)

Were his desires not fueled by Morgoth's lies, though?


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## Maedhros (May 2, 2002)

And by Morgoth's killing of Finwe.


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## chrysophalax (May 2, 2002)

Would he under no circumstances have swallowed his pride and requested assistance of the Valar rather than resort to kin-slaying. Did his pride mean that much to him?


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## Bucky (May 2, 2002)

>>>>I think this is sad. There a lots of LOTR forums, and in one where there is almost no discussion, i posted this thread and received one of the most fascinating discussions around, yet in this forum that is supposed to be entertaining and have knowlegeable people it's not.
Go figure.

How many forums do you people read?
Some of you have WAY too much time on your hands.......

I find nothing fascinating about this subject.
Where's another Balrog discussion?  

Olwe: It's called tough love. 
He told Feanor that it may be the act of a friend to rebuke a friend's folly.

Elwe: Pride. 
He wanted to be King of Beleriand & he was the only High Elf around.
The Silmarillion says 'He did not like the coming of all these princes out of the West eager for Realms' (paraphrase). 

The Silmarillion also says that when Thingol found out from Galadriel the whole story, except for the kin-slaying, he said "Now at last I understand the coming of the Noldor out of the West, at which I HAD WONDERED MUCH BEFORE. Not to our aid did they come (save by chance)...."

He was obviously wise & powerful, & notice he had thought much on these matters BEFORE he knew the truth.


On Melian having some special insight on what happened in Valinor, no. She only found out as Thingol was told by the Children of Finarfin.
She DID have much power & lent some of it to Thingol, but in marrying him, she became bound to an Elvish form.

Undoubtably Melian has a 'prophetic foresight' at times, like putting up her girdle, or saying the Silmarills would not be recovered or the Noldor would not be victorious.

So, maybe she lent some of that prophetic foreknowledge to Thingol & he (and she) knew without specific information keeping their distance from the Noldor was the best move for HIS kingdom. 

In each case, a king or ruler's job is to do what's best for his domain & subjects, not help out his buddy he hasn't seen in 10,000 years, or the buddy's kids & grandchildren who he has never met.


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## Maedhros (May 2, 2002)

> How many forums do you people read?
> Some of you have WAY too much time on your hands.......


Love your criticism. If this was meant as an insult, you have just insulted half of the forum!


> I find nothing fascinating about this subject.


I could tell you what someone told me, but I'm not going to.



> In each case, a king or ruler's job is to do what's best for his domain & subjects, not help out his buddy he hasn't seen in 10,000 years, or the buddy's kids & grandchildren who he has never met.


Too bad that he couldn't at least talk to the "buddy's kids" that were not related to him. His prophetic wisdom didn't saved him in the end.


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## Bucky (May 3, 2002)

Don't worry about me, I'm a 'crusty old f*rt' as one person said.......

No Elwe's pride & scheming took him down in the end.

Come to think off it, wasn't Thingol about the sneakiest & proudest High Elf outside of Feanor & his Son's (the 2 eldest excluded)?

He coulda been Noldorian.
 

Now, how about that Balrog discussion?


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## Maedhros (May 3, 2002)

> Now, how about that Balrog discussion?


Where is that?


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## Bucky (May 5, 2002)

Just a joke - you'll get used to me........

Don't get mad, I just like to stir things up & joke.
All in good fun though.  

In my experience here, Balrogs & Glorfindel (or should I say BOTH Glorfindels, LOL!) are the 2 most over analysed, & over emphansized & subjects mentioned in ME.


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## Maedhros (May 5, 2002)

> Just a joke - you'll get used to me........


I hope so, sadly i will be posting less that before.


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## Bucky (May 5, 2002)

Why?

You might miss the next Balrog discussion.......


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## Mimzy (Aug 29, 2011)

Yeah, I think Melian had told Thingol about the Kinslaying already. Remember she had great foresight and telepathic skills. It would be weird if she didn't have some kind of sense that her husband's family in Valinor had suffered a tragedy as big as the Kinslaying.


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