# Poll: What should the Valar have done?



## Beren (May 23, 2005)

So what do you guys think?


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## Alatar (May 23, 2005)

I agree with nom, the valar thought it would be cool to have there own litle Quendi to live there, If they had done the 3rd option,then melkor would have to stay in aman, anf though the elves wouldn't have reached the high's they reached under the valar they wouldn't have reached the lows either.
Beren good thread again well done.


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## Ithrynluin (May 23, 2005)

I consider the second option to be the best.

I think it was a good move for the Valar to have invited the Quendi to Aman, since it was a land much attuned to their natures (a mortal could not withstand dwelling there, for example), one where they could enjoy their immortality with the immortal beings around them, without lamenting the loss and dying of short lived creatures in Middle-earth (which was a prime reason for creating the Rings of Power). The Elves' longing for the sea, whether it is apparent at once, or lies dormant for millenia, is a clear cut sign where they ultimately belong.

I'd like to hear more about the selfish reasons / noble excuses of the Valar, though. What points to this being true?

Also, the Valar never _technically_ (and physically) withheld the Elves' departure from Aman, though they did set a ban against the Exiles' return, so that they could never find the road back without obtaining the pardon of the Valar first, so it's not like they took away their free will, they just conditioned it.

P.S. Beren, welcome to TTF, and a great topic!


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## Thorondor_ (May 23, 2005)

> I think for most of the Valar the Quendi were amusing objects with little individuality. They were pets.


 Well, in the Ainulindale, it is said: _And they saw with amazement the coming of the Children of Ilúvatar, and the habitation that was prepared for them; and they perceived that they themselves in the labour of their music had been busy with the preparation of this dwelling, and yet knew not that it had any purpose beyond its own beauty. For the Children of Ilúvatar were conceived by him alone; and they came with the third theme, and were not in the theme which Ilúvatar propounded at the beginning, and none of the Ainur had part in their making._
I think this quote shows that they view the Children of Iluvatar with amazement, hardly a synonym for contempt. If they view the eldar as pets, then they chose to depart from Iluvatar just to build a habitation for some pets? Why would Tolkien waste the time of the valar with such a ... _boring_ task? (for the lack of a better word).



> melkor would have to stay in aman, anf though the elves wouldn't have reached the high's they reached under the valar _they wouldn't have reached the lows either_


What is the connection between elves living only in Middle-Earth and Melkor having to stay in Aman? And if Feanor was capable of leading the noldor to kin-slaying even in Aman, he would also lead them to such a thing in Middle-Earth also, especially with Melkor around.

I think that impatience is a grave problem in Tolkien's world. There are many examples of heroes trying to do something good in its nature but which becomes bad when it is not done in the proper hour. And the coming of the elves in Aman was not done in the proper hour, just like the departure of the noldor.


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## Thorondor_ (May 23, 2005)

About your last post, Nom, I would like to quote what you said concerning those elves who did not answer the summon to Mandos:


> It's not a question of bowing to them _(to the valar)_, or even accepting the inviation for the sake of not disobeying a Vala. It is a matter of taking up an invitation, making use of an opportunity, that is their only means of healing and eventually living again. *Failing to do this may be a sign of the taint for this reason, refusal of Vala request aside.*


[emphasis added]

Do these two posts of you concur?


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## Alatar (May 23, 2005)

The vala I asume would of suspected somthing as if melkor did anything they would follow him to ME to save the elves who had done nothing wrong, that was why they didn't save them till a messenger came.


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## Thorondor_ (May 23, 2005)

> a mortal could not withstand dwelling there, for example


 
Why do you say that? Then what about Frodo and Bilbo?



> The vala I asume would of suspected somthing as if melkor did anything they would follow him to ME to save the elves who had done nothing wrong, that was why they didn't save them till a messenger came.


 
But what about the other elves on ME who also did nothing wrong and were left to Melkor's mercy?


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## Alatar (May 23, 2005)

A cosmolic oversight by the valar.

By the way why do i get the feeling you don't like the valar


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## Ithrynluin (May 23, 2005)

Thorondor_ said:


> Why do you say that? Then what about Frodo and Bilbo?



They're exceptions. They could hope to get healed more effectively in Aman of the wounds caused by the evil of Sauron, but a mortal is not 'hard-wired' to live in Aman, which is why their life burns up more quickly there than it would in the 'dying' lands.


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## Thorondor_ (May 23, 2005)

> A cosmolic oversight by the valar.


 
What do you mean by that? And no, I don't like the fact that the Valar are the absolute good power while being so inept at judging characters and events. And that elves who don't go to Mandos to submit to their faulty judgement must necessarily be tainted. That sucks. That is against free will. The rule of the Valar is not acceptable. Even a human could judge better than them. They are unfit... lol.



Ithrynluin said:


> a mortal is not 'hard-wired' to live in Aman, which is why their life burns up more quickly there than it would in the 'dying' lands.


 
Hm, I don't remember this argument being brought up when the numenoreans had their little chat with the valar about going to Aman... are there any quotes to sustain your statement?




> They wanted to build the world and to be near the elves because they did in fact love them, it was just far too selfish, and it was possessive. I believe they loved the race more than the many people.


In what way were they possessive? And why would they love elves more than any other people? I guess what drove their actions later was not the lack of love but their realisation that they have to put a barrier between them and the world because the gifts they give are too much to handle. They still had great love for M-E, and the Istari are the tip of the iceberg, in my opinion.


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## Thorondor_ (May 23, 2005)

I was reffering to these posts:



> If they cared so much, why not teach them all in Middle-earth, instead of offering the truth like a reward to those who come and revere them.


 


> It's not a question of bowing to them , or even accepting the inviation for the sake of not disobeying a Vala. It is a matter of taking up an invitation, making use of an opportunity, that is their only means of healing and eventually living again. Failing to do this may be a sign of the taint for this reason, refusal of Vala request aside.


In one post, you don't like the fact that elves were not teached throughout all M-E, and that knowledge was given like a" reward to those who come and revere them".
But in the other it doesn't bother you that elves have to submit to the judgement of the valar in order to get another body.


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## YayGollum (May 23, 2005)

The last one. Show Eru how crazy he was. Some random Valar type talking ---> "Yeah, these Kids you showed us do seem interesting. We are creeped out by Mel and would liked to have helped them out, but you said that it is actually a good thing that the most powerful one of us decided to become inconvenience-oriented. We'll watch how that pans out, your Allmightiness." mumbling ---> "Yeah, right. Crazy omnipotent being! Mel will kill us all, but it'll be a nice show for him!"


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## Ithrynluin (May 23, 2005)

Thorondor_ said:


> Hm, I don't remember this argument being brought up when the numenoreans had their little chat with the valar about going to Aman... are there any quotes to sustain your statement?



See _The History of Middle-earth X: Morgoth's Ring; Myths Transformed: Aman and Mortal Men_.


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## Thorondor_ (May 23, 2005)

> How do you draw that conclusion


 Well, because in one case, you don't like the fact that elves can take knowledge only in Valinor (what I dislike even more is that another body itself can be taken from there only also). It's very possible that my conclusion was incorrect, so ... please do forget about it, it's off-topic anyway 

And also about humans and Aman:


> Very soon then the fëa and hröa of a Man in Aman would not be united and at peace, but would be opposed, to the great pain of both. The hröa being in full vigour and joy of life would cling to the fëa, lest its departure should bring death; and against death it would revolt as would a great beast in full life either flee from the hunter or turn savagely upon him. But the fëa would be as it were in prison, becoming ever more weary of all the delights of the hröa, until they were loathsome to it, longing ever more and more to be gone, until even those matters for its thought that it received through the hröa and its senses became meaningless.


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## Beren (May 24, 2005)

Nóm said:


> 1) Elves orginally feared the sea. Ulmo played music that caused the longing.
> 
> 2) Echo of the Music of the Ainur could be heard in it.


 Well, I guess this shows even more that they belonged in Valinor; because they were attracted to Ulmo's music and the music of the Ainur. 


Nóm said:


> It is for this reason I suggest the Valar should have visited the Quendi in Middle-earth.


But do you really think that the Eldar could've reached the same peak of wisdom and love of beauty that they reached in Valinor by the Valar just _visiting_ them in ME?

Also about the Elves who were left behind in ME: I think that's the only fault the Valar made. They should have tried to cleanse ME from Morgoth before inviting the Eldar to Valinor. Plus, ME wasn't such a bad place at the time; after all Melian, a _Maia,_ chose to leave Valinor and settle there.

Besides, think of it as "it was all in the Music"; the Eldar were fated to go to Valinor, so that they could be prepared to fight Morgoth and later Sauron. Do you think Galadriel could've helped Frodo the way she did if she'd never went to Valinor?


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## Beren (May 24, 2005)

Nóm said:


> Actually didn't come here with the desire to have to constantly defend my _opinion_, though I should have known better.


Well, I didn't intend this thread to be only a poll, but also a place for argument about this topic.


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## ingolmo (May 27, 2005)

Nóm said:


> I also beleive the elves were taken to Aman for selfish reasons under noble excuses.


Yeah, all the Valar, with the exception of Ulmo, were selfish, and greedy, and egotistic.
-Ingolmo


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## Thorondor_ (May 27, 2005)

Selfish? Greedy? Egotistic? Desire to posses things is a characteristic of Melkor and not of the Valar; also, this sense of ego's own is characteristic to the concept of magic as defined by Tolkien and which has an evil nature. No, the valar didn't have those traits, they wanted the best for the elves; however, because they didn't have the knowledge of evil, as Eru made them this way, they are not wise in their decisions; so even for this lack of wisdom they shouldn't be accountable - they were made this way and they have good hearts.


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## Alatar (May 27, 2005)

That post seems to be a bit strange for you, i thought you did't like the valar i theink that the valar arn't perfect, but the just aqs close as you can get, and there one fault is pity for evil.
I think pity is a good thing, for even is you made a right decion, you made it for the right reasons(Ie; letting melkor out again) than a right one for wrong reasons( Ifn they didn't let melkor out ity would be cruel(unless givenpemission from Eru how id perfect)).This is better than a wrong decion for wrong reasons, like taking in the elves.


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## Barliman Butterbur (May 27, 2005)

Beren said:


> So what do you guys think?



They did exactly what Tolkien intended them to do. 

Barley


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## Beren (May 27, 2005)

Thorondor_ said:


> ...because they didn't have the knowledge of evil, as Eru made them this way,they are not wise in their decisions...



Ooooh, I see an interesting debate coming up! 
What are you trying to say?
Is knowledge of evil essential for wisdom? Is Melkor the only one with a grain of evil in him? So what's your take on all the freewill stuff?


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## Thorondor_ (May 28, 2005)

> Silmarillion p. 65 "Manwe was free from evil and could not comprehend it"


 


> Is knowledge of evil essential for wisdom?


 
Absolutely, no doubt about it. Here are some good definitions of wisdom:

The ability to discern or judge what is true, right, or lasting; insight.
Common sense; good judgment:
The sum of learning through the ages; knowledge
It is very puzzling indeed that Tolkien envisioned a king god without knowledge of evil, because, for what I know from psychology, inability to discern good from bad is a sign of psychic disorder. The way Tolkien put it, Manwe is an inapt king till the end of time, I really can't reconcile with this. He is the most powerful positive character, yet so deeply flawed; what are all his experience, power, information worth, if in the end, his reasoning is short-circuited? Really, how can the fate of the world depend on him? 
A possible answer is that he and the valar are responsible for the "manintenance", making sure that the basic energy flows are in place - therefore fundamental, yet basic tasks. It is up to those with free will - humans - to be in the center of all, and thus to complete the creation.
If we put things this way, we are twice favored by Eru - we have the chance to return to Him before the world is over AND even though we may not have so much power or so much information/experience, from what we know, we can discerne good and bad. We are twice above the Powers, and this is only a sign of His love to us...


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## Starbrow (May 30, 2005)

IMO, being able to recognize evil is different from comprehending it. Because Manwe was not evil, he did not understand Melkor's motivations and was not able to predict well what Melkor would do. Unless one is omnipotent, one can not understand completely another's motivations. Manwe was wise, but his wisdom had its limits, specifically being able to understand what drove Melkor to act in the way he did.


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## Thorondor_ (May 31, 2005)

being able to recognize evil is different from comprehending it - I disagree; the concept of evil is just that, a concept, it doesn't have any kind of form. One cannot recognize evil unless one understands that concept of evil. Evil is not something to be seen, heard or touched, evil is a label we apply to someone through/after a process of comprehension. And what you are talking about is not omnipotence but omniscience - complete knowledge.


> Manwe was wise, but his wisdom had its limits, specifically being able to understand what drove Melkor to act in the way he did


You are implying that Manwe has no knowledge of what drives Melkor. But history should have shown the old king pretty clear what lies behind the actions of Melkor - his desire for power and that desire motivates Melkor to do whatever he did. No, it is not the case of Manwe understanding the motivations, it's his incapacity to understand the very concept of evil.


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## Arvedui (Jun 1, 2005)

The Valar unfortunately became to fond of their own lands, and forgot what their assignment was. Because of that, they brought the Elves to Amman, which was a big mistake.
They should have thought the Elves what they knew, in the original habitat of the Elves.

One thing that probably would not have come about if the Elves were never brought to Valinor, are the Silmarils. Strange that that fact is not commented on.


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## Thorondor_ (Jun 1, 2005)

Perhaps some elves would still be accepted, even if only for a while, in Valinor, and thus get the chance to be near the trees. I wonder if Feanor would have been able to 'create' a Silmaril if he had at his disposal not the trees but a fruit of them.


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## Beren (Jun 1, 2005)

Thorondor_,

Concerning your earlier post:
If I understand you correctly, you're saying that understanding evil itself is the same as understanding the motivations of evil people. If that's indeed what you mean, then I respectfully disagree! Let me give you an example, I might understand that some people practice self-mutilation because (according to them) pain is an extreme form of pleasure. Now I know that that's why they practice it, but fortunately for me, I haven't gone through such deep frustrations and depressions to find pleasure in pain; so I'll never be able to fully grasp _why_ they find pleasure in pain. I think this is the same case with Manwë and Melkor: Manwë can understand that Melkor is after global domination but he wouldn't be able to see why Melkor would desire this. As a result, Manwë would understand the concept of evil in itself but not the motivations and desires behind it in accordance with the quote you posted.


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## Thorondor_ (Jun 2, 2005)

> If I understand you correctly, you're saying that understanding evil itself is the same as understanding the motivations of evil people.


 
No, that is not correct. First, I argued against your statement that: "being able to recognize evil is different from comprehending it "; afterwards, I argued that Manwe had all the opportunities to acknowledge the main motivation behind Melkor's actions, that being his desire for power. 

[As a side note, concerning the example you gave about pleasure, you said: " haven't gone through such deep *frustrations and depressions* to find pleasure in pain" - the very fact that you state that frustrations and depressions lead to that kind of behaviour actually proves that you understand this behaviour, if you can identify its causes - frustrations and depressions. And we never need to "fully grasp _why_ " a certain event occurs(that is not possible, even if only for the fact that the act of observation in itself modifies the event in question, ask a psychologist or a physicist), we only need to know its basic laws.]



> I think this is the same case with Manwë and Melkor: Manwë can understand that Melkor is after global domination but he wouldn't be able to see why Melkor would desire this. As a result, Manwë *would understand the concept of evil in itself* but not the motivations and desires behind it in accordance with the quote you posted.


 
I believe you are wrong if you wanted to equivalate the desire for world domination with the very concept evil - evil is much larger that this motivation alone and second, this desire isn't necessarily evil in itself (esspecialy if the ruling of the world is done out of love for the world/Eru). And I don't think that you could ever state that Manwe comprehends evil, under any circumstance or point of view, Tolkien clearly stated the opposite. We are talking about a specific character, created to obey specific rules.


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## Alcuin (Aug 29, 2006)

> As is: They should've brought the Elves to Valinor and should've tried to stop them from leaving
> 
> They should've brought the Elves to Valinor but should've left them free to stay or leave
> 
> …


I am confused. Is this correct? The Valar did lead the Elves to Aman, but the Elves were free to leave at any time. The Valar did discourage them to leave, and told them what the consequences would be if they did: death, sorrow, and tears unnumbered. They did not try to prevent them from leaving, they tried to convince them of the futility of believing they could win a war against Morgoth. The Valar could have stopped the Noldor from leaving Aman at any time: they chose to let them leave. 

Maybe I am arguing about how many Maiar can dance on the top of a Silmaril, but isn’t there a difference between “[trying] to stop [the Elves] from leaving” Aman and trying to convince them not to leave, particularly when an alternative choice states the Valar “left them free to stay or leave”?


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## Thorondor_ (Aug 30, 2006)

> The Valar did discourage them to leave, and told them what the consequences would be if they did: death, sorrow, and tears unnumbered


If I remember correctly, they only warned the departing noldor about unforseen sorrow; after they killed their kin, they then uttered the curse. I don't think that their suffering would have been as great if they didn't commit the kinslaying.


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## Arvedui (Sep 5, 2006)

The Valar said straight that each were allowed to leave at his/her own will, but that it would be foolish to do so.


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## Ermundo (Sep 6, 2006)

In the end, they should've left the elves as they were. There is not concrete proof to say that the elves would've suffered significantly had they stayed in ME. After all, in the end, the day the three groups of elves landed on the shores of Aman, so did the _Long defeat _ensure.​


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## Ingwë (Dec 26, 2006)

> From _"T__he Silmarilion: Chapter 3 - Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor":_
> *Manwë sat long in thought upon Taniquetil, and he sought the counsel of Ilúvatar.* And coming then down to Valmar he summoned the Valar to the Ring of Doom, and thither came even Ulmo from the Outer Sea.Then Manwë said to the Valar: '*This is the counsel of Ilúvatar in my heart: that we should take up again the mastery of Arda, at whatsoever cost, and deliver the Quendi from the shadow of Melkor.*
> ......
> Nonetheless the Valar did not discover all the mighty vaults and caverns hidden with deceit far under the fortresses of Angband and Utumno. *Many evil things still lingered there, and others were dispersed and fled into the dark and roamed in the waste places of the world, awaiting a more evil hour; and Sauron they did not find.*
> ...


Manwë did what he had to. He was supposed to deliver the Quendi from the Shadow of Melkor. The Valar overthrew The Dark Lord but his evil creatures escaped and were free. Middle-earth wasn't safe place. Manwë had to protect the Childen so he invited them to his home because it was safe. Middle-earth was ruined while Aman was beautiful and safe. The Trees grew there, there was light. Valinor was perfect place to dwell in. They made the right choice but all Elves should’ve followed them. 
What would happen if the Valar did’t take the Children to Valinor? They would totally overruin Middle-earth and the Elves wouldn’t have a good home. But the Valar took the Elves to a safe place and teached them. And they were free to leave Valinor whenever they want. The Exiles couldn’t go back to Aman because of the kinslaying. The others were free to live wherever they want. 

It seems that only one person pick the first option.. That is me J
_As is: They should've brought the Elves to Valinor and should've tried to stop them from leaving__._
_I don’t mean that they should’ve tried to stop them from leaving and leave Melkor alone. I think that they should’ve stopped them from attacking Melkor without reinforcements. The Valar should’ve helped the Noldor. Together they had to overthrow Melkor. _


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## Thorondor_ (Dec 26, 2006)

Man, as I look back, I sure did posted here. I think that the following big-behind passages from HoME X are pertinent to our discussion:


Notes on motives in the Silmarillion said:


> But in this way Morgoth lost (or exchanged, or transmuted) the greater part of his original 'angelic' powers, of mind and spirit, while gaining a terrible grip upon the physical world. For this reason he had to be fought, mainly by physical force, and enormous material ruin was a probable consequence of any direct combat with him, victorious or otherwise. *This is the chief explanation of the constant reluctance of the Valar to come into open battle against Morgoth. *Manwe's task and problem was much more difficult than Gandalf's. Sauron's, relatively smaller, power was concentrated; Morgoth's vast power was disseminated. The whole of 'Middle-earth' was Morgoth's Ring, though temporarily his attention was mainly upon the North-west. *Unless swiftly successful, War against him might well end in reducing all Middle-earth to chaos, possibly even all Arda.* It is easy to say: 'It was the task and function of the Elder King to govern Arda and make it possible for the Children of Eru to live in it unmolested.' But the dilemma of the Valar was this: Arda could only be liberated by a physical battle; but a probable result of such a battle was the irretrievable ruin of Arda. Moreover, the final eradication of Sauron (as a power directing evil) was achievable by the destruction of the Ring. No such eradication of Morgoth was possible, since this required the complete disintegration of the 'matter' of Arda. Sauron's power was not (for example) in gold as such, but in a particular form or shape made of a particular portion of total gold. Morgoth's power was disseminated throughout Gold, if nowhere absolute (for he did not create Gold) it was nowhere absent. (It was this Morgoth-element in matter, indeed, which was a prerequisite for such 'magic' and other evils as Sauron practised with it and upon it.)





Notes on motives in the Silmarillion said:


> The closing of Valinor against the rebel Noldor (who left it voluntarily and after warning) was in itself just. But, if we dare to attempt to enter the mind of the Elder King, assigning motives and finding faults, there are things to remember before we deliver a judgement. Manwe was the spirit of greatest wisdom and prudence in Arda. He is represented as having had the greatest knowledge of the Music, as a whole, possessed by any one finite mind; and he alone of all persons or minds in that time is represented as having the power of direct recourse to and communication with Eru. He must have grasped with great clarity what even we may perceive dimly: that it was the essential mode of the process of 'history' in Arda that evil should constantly arise, and that out of it new good should constantly come. One especial aspect of this is the strange way in which the evils of the Marrer, or his inheritors, are turned into weapons against evil. If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reestablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that *the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth, without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction*. And in the meanwhile, Men, or the best elements in Mankind, shaking off his shadow, came into contact with a people who had actually seen and experienced the Blessed Realm.
> 
> In their association with the warring Eldar Men were raised to their fullest achievable stature, and by the two marriages the transference to them, or infusion into Mankind, of the noblest Elf-strain was accomplished, in readiness for the still distant, but inevitably approaching, days when the Elves would 'fade'.
> 
> *The last intervention with physical force by the Valar, ending in the breaking of Thangorodrim, may then be viewed as not in fact reluctant or even unduly delayed, but timed with precision*. The intervention came before the annihilation of the Eldar and the Edain. Morgoth though locally triumphant had neglected most of Middle-earth during the war; and by it he had in fact been weakened: in power and prestige (he had lost and failed to recover one of the Silmarils), and above all in mind. He had become absorbed in 'kingship', and though a tyrant of ogre-size and monstrous power, this was a vast fall even from his former wickedness of hate, and his terrible nihilism. He had fallen to like being a tyrant-king with conquered slaves, and vast obedient armies.


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## Ingwë (Dec 31, 2006)

Thank you, Thorondor, for providing this information.

Reading the first quote I think that The Valar didn't have other choice than open battle against Melkor. Moreover, he _was_ a part of Arda. _It could only be liberated by a physical battle; but a probable result of such a battle was the irretrievable ruin of Arda. _So that battle was impossible. The best choice was inviting the Elves to Valinor, away from the poisoned Middle-earth. And the Noldor had to leave Valinor and fight Melkor in Middle-earth. There the Elves mixed their blood with the Mens' blood and the Edain _were raised to their fullest achievable stature. _So all that just had to happen because with the evil comes the good  That is a cycle.


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## Finrod Felagund (May 20, 2007)

As it was the Valar who unchained Melkor they should of been responsible for the fact that he was still evil and shouldn't of been forgiven so they should of chained him up as soon as he stopped running away (attack Angband)


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## Grond (May 22, 2007)

Finrod Felagund said:


> As it was the Valar who unchained Melkor they should of been responsible for the fact that he was still evil and shouldn't of been forgiven so they should of chained him up as soon as he stopped running away (attack Angband)


Evil is all a matter of perspective. Did Melkor think of himself as evil? I doubt it . 

The concept of evil is relative. What is evil to one is right to others. One need only read any article on "moral relativism". Do we think of radical Muslims as evil? Yes. Do radical Muslims see themselves as evil? No. They see themselves as heroes.

Did the elves and Valar deem Melkor evil? Yes. Did Melkor view himself as evil? No. He just felt he knew what would work better for Ea than any of his Brethren. An even greater moralistic question is, "Did Eru think Melkor was evil? and if he did, would he allow evil to ruin his world?" The answer is no. My belief is that Eru realized the need for balance in the world. As in our own world, there is a balance of yin and yang... light and dark. The world of Middle-earth was in harmony because of Melkor. Where would the fun be in a world where everyone was perfect and sat around worshiping Manwe. Pretty BORING!!

Cheers,

grond


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## Snaga (May 23, 2007)

It seems to me that Iluvatar rebuked Manwe for not contesting Morgoth's power in Middle Earth, for not trusting him to prevent Morgoth's nihilistic destruction of Arda, and therefore also for removing the elves to Valinor. See the Converse of Eru and Manwe in Morgoth's Ring.


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## Turgon (May 28, 2007)

Also I am not sure how much moral relativism can be used as an excuse in a world where proof of the gods actually exist. How can one argue moral relativism in a world where the Gods are actually there to correct you? Isn't that what the Rebellion of the Noldor was about? That they actually rebelled, Lucifer-like, against the Valar's will?


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## Grond (Jun 2, 2007)

Turgon said:


> Also I am not sure how much moral relativism can be used as an excuse in a world where proof of the gods actually exist. How can one argue moral relativism in a world where the Gods are actually there to correct you? Isn't that what the Rebellion of the Noldor was about? That they actually rebelled, Lucifer-like, against the Valar's will?


I had to think about your line of logic for a while before responding. The problem wasn't necessarily moral relativism within the Eldar, rather it was moral relativism which clearly caused conflict among the "gods" of whom you speak. Clearly Melkor thought what he was doing was "right" within the part of the "mind of Eru" from which he sprung. He also had numerous other Maia who followed his lead. I don't recall if it was clearly spelled out in any of the books, but it appears the Maia of Aule were especially enamoured with some of Melkor's plans. It seems to me that the Balrogs would have been either Aule Maia or direct Maia of Melkor.

There is even a morally relativistic argument between Aule and Yavanna over what should receive preference on Arda.... works of the hand or works of the Earth. It appears to me that Tolkien's works are loaded with moral relativism... or I could be wrong. 

Chew on this for a while and let's disicuss more.

Cheers,

grond


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## Finrod Felagund (Jun 6, 2007)

Grond said:


> Evil is all a matter of perspective. Did Melkor think of himself as evil? I doubt it .


i know what you mean about the perspective thing but i honestly think Melkor thought himself as evil, never did he think of himself as the 'good guy' or the 'hero' as it were. He knew that hampering the creation of Arda wasn't the right thing to do but he did it anyway because he envied the Valar and their obidience to Eru; he was too proud to obey a greater power but he knew it wasn't the right thing to do. He was the first being to feel hatred, jealousy and fear and in his jealousy he thought to sow these feeling within others. He knew by doing this no good would come of it but he did it anyway. He did not want a perfect world but he knew that by trying to destroy it he was doing evil. 

Just my opinion and may well be wrong


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## Thorondor_ (Jun 6, 2007)

Finrod Felagund said:


> i know what you mean about the perspective thing but i honestly think Melkor thought himself as evil, never did he think of himself as the 'good guy' or the 'hero' as it were.


I disagree:


Myths Transformed said:


> As a shadow Melkor did not then conceive himself. For in his beginning he loved and desired light, and the form that he took was exceedingly bright





Ainulindale said:


> And [Melkor] feigned, even to himself at first, that he desired to go thither and order all things for the good of the Children of Iluvatar, controlling the turmoils of the heat and the cold that had come to pass through him.


We also have Elrond's statement (emphases added):


Council of Elrond said:


> And that is another reason why the Ring should be destroyed: as long as it is in the world it will be a danger even to the Wise. *For nothing is evil in the beginning*. Even Sauron was not so.


Or the letters:


Letter #183 said:


> [Sauron] had gone *the way of all tyrants: beginning well*, at least on the level that while desiring to order all things according to his own wisdom he still at first considered the (economic) well-being of other inhabitants of the Earth.





Grond said:


> Evil is all a matter of perspective.


I too doubt this moral relativism; because Tolkien gives us a compass:


Of rebirth and other dooms of those who go to Mandos said:


> [Hope] cometh not only from the yearning for the Will of Iluvatar the Begetter (which by itself may lead those within Time to no more than regret), but also from trust in Eru the Lord everlasting, that he is good, and that his works shall all end in good. This the Marrer hath denied, and *in this denial is the root of evil*, and its end is in despair.


Sounds pretty straightforward to me; deny the good nature of Eru, you are evil - or getting there.


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## Finrod Felagund (Jun 22, 2007)

Despite of all this perspective-discussing my point still stands.

Ilutvatar gave the Valar a task: to make Arda ready for his children for when they arrive, by leaving Melkor unchallenged by anything with hope of defeating him they weren't doing that, which is why i believe the Valar should of assulted Melkor and re-chained him before the coming of the Edain. Why should they leave Melkor free in Middle-Earth when men were awaking when they were told to make the world ready for The Children of Iluvatar? They certainly thought of this when the Eldar awoke because that was the reason for Melkor's first chaining so why not chain him up again for the coming of Iluvatar's second children? Aren't they as important? We have no reason to believe so. This is why i think Melkor should of been chained ere the coming of men. 
Does anyone agree with me?


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## Thorondor_ (Jun 22, 2007)

> why not chain him up again for the coming of Iluvatar's second children?


Due to Melkor's powerful grip upon the matter of Arda, a new war with him might have caused tremendous destruction. Thus, the valar were forced to wait for him to weaken himself.


Notes on motives in the Silmarillion said:


> Morgoth lost (or exchanged, or transmuted) the greater part of his original 'angelic' powers, of mind and spirit, while gaining a terrible grip upon the physical world. For this reason he had to be fought, mainly by physical force, and enormous material ruin was a probable consequence of any direct combat with him, victorious or otherwise. This is the chief explanation of the constant reluctance of the Valar to come into open battle against Morgoth... The whole of 'Middle-earth' was Morgoth's Ring, though temporarily his attention was mainly upon the North-west. Unless swiftly successful, War against him might well end in reducing all Middle-earth to chaos, possibly even all Arda. It is easy to say: 'It was the task and function of the Elder King to govern Arda and make it possible for the Children of Eru to live in it unmolested.' But the dilemma of the Valar was this: Arda could only be liberated by a physical battle; but a probable result of such a battle was the irretrievable ruin of Arda.
> ...
> The last intervention with physical force by the Valar, ending in the breaking of Thangorodrim, may then be viewed as not in fact reluctant or even unduly delayed, but timed with precision...Morgoth though locally triumphant had neglected most of Middle-earth during the war; and by it he had in fact been weakened: in power and prestige (he had lost and failed to recover one of the Silmarils), and above all in mind.


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## Finrod Felagund (Jun 26, 2007)

Ok thanks Thorondor i did not know this. 

I was under the impression that Melkor would of had a stronger stranglehold on Middle-earth when he had Utumno and more Balrogs than when he had Angband and around seven Balrogs so overthrowing him in Angband would of made less of an effect on Arda. But as you have said this is wrong.

It is interesting that although Manwe tried to stop Feanor going to Middle-Earth to wage war on Melkor he needed him to weaken Melkor by making him spend his power in the wars of the Silmarils so he could be finally overthrown. Or am i mistaken?


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## Master of maps (Apr 25, 2008)

the second option is the best, because then the elves get to have a taste of the bliss of valinor and decide for themselves if they want to stay or leave. and by the way, thorondor, why dont you actually offer your opinion instead of trying to pick holes in everybody elses.... it gets kinda boring reading your quotes.


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