# Where was Gondor when the Westfold fell?



## esrbl (Apr 11, 2020)

Also, what was the Westfold?


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## Olorgando (Apr 11, 2020)

To take that second question first, the Westfold is the western part of Rohan, its western boundary land.
In the south, Rohan had its chief western stronghold of Helm's Deep, to the north (Across the Gap of Rohan) lay Isengard with the tower of Orthanc, which Gondor had explicitly not ceded to Rohan, and to which Saruman had been given the keys in 2759 Third Age, pretty exactly 260 years before he treacherously attacked the Westfold in early 3019 TA.

As to Gondor, they were quite seriously distracted by the attack on Osgiliath by Sauron (most probably by forces from Minas Morgul) in mid-3018 TA, which was not meant as an actual invasion of Gondor, but a cover for the Nazgûl to cross the Anduin (they were at this time still using horses). IIRC, Boromir managed to "beat back" this attack and reoccupy at least the western shore of Osgiliath, but shortly later he left for Rivendell, ending up as a member of the Fellowship. Gondor (meaning Denethor as Steward) knew for several reasons that Sauron was collecting troops from his Easterling and Southron allies / subjects, so there was simply nothing militarily to spare to aid Rohan. It ended up exactly the other way around in the Battle of the Pelennor Fields.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 11, 2020)

The OP quote comes not from the book, but from PJ and crew, so the question would be better asked in the Film forum.

I recommend a reading of "Cirion and Eorl" in UT, to gain an understanding of the significance of the oaths given by the then-leaders of the two peoples, binding them together. These oaths would be held "sacred" by their successors, including Theoden and Denethor.

The nonsense spouted by the movie caricatures was, I suppose, intended to ramp up the "excitement".


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## Olorgando (Apr 11, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> The OP quote comes not from the book, but from PJ and crew, so the question would be better asked in the Film forum.
> ...


You can quote from the *films*?!? The mind boggles … 
It is a question one could imagine Théoden asking, especially after having been influenced by Wormtongue for quite a while.
While Boromir's journey to Rivendell did take him by the Gap of Rohan, we don't know that he stopped by in Edoras (which, again, would seem plausible for him to do).
We do not know how up-to-date Théoden was about the situation in Gondor, and how much of that he would have believed under the influence of Wormtongue (a residue of which might be assumed to still remain after Gandalf had cured him).

Much worse was PJ & Co.'s garbage about Saruman "controlling" Théoden by a sort of long-range telepathy, Saruman actually getting a bruise on his forehead for his troubles when Gandalf the White "broke the spell". One of the occasions where PJ & Co., in some desparate urge to make things unnecessarily explicit (and just plain wrong), the other concerning Saruman being his "causing" the snowfall on the Redhorn Pass, dumbed down the script to preschooler level.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 11, 2020)

Yes, yes, and Pippin "going behind Denethor's back" to light the signal fire, after Denethor refused to give the order, and on and on.

Alcuin raised the question of the suddenness of Theoden's turnaround:









Why did Théoden suddenly trust Gandalf?


In Two Towers, “King of the Golden Hall”, Théoden greets Gandalf gruffly, calling him “Stormcrow”:[W]hen I heard that Shadowfax had come back riderless, I rejoiced at the return of the horse, but still more at the lack of the rider; and when Éomer brought the tidings that you had gone at last to...




www.thetolkienforum.com





Gandalf "cured" Theoden of his mental sickness, or if you want to cast it in religious terms, "saved" him, through the power of the Secret Fire. However we want to view it, this act was complete and permanent.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 12, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> You can quote from the *films*?!? The mind boggles


If a line not from the book is cited, it's a safe bet that it comes from the films, but in this case, it stuck in my mind as being particularly egregious.




Olorgando said:


> we don't know that he stopped by in Edoras (which, again, would seem plausible for him to do).


Indeed, it would be natural for him to do so, not only as an expected courtesy from an emissary of an ally, but especially as the son of the Steward, he would be in a position to impart intelligence about the state of Gondor's defenses, and the movements of Mordor's forces. He was clearly well known to, and admired by, the Rohirrim -- Eomer's words to Aragorn make that plain. Also he would likely be inquiring about the location of Imladris along the way, though he'd probably not get much useful information from the Rohirrim on that. So, despite the story's silence, I think we can assume he did stop there -- possibly for several days.

If so, I wonder how the encounter would have gone? Was he disturbed by the state of Theoden? Did Wormtongue, if present, try to sow dissension? That, along with his possible adventures among the Dunlanders (not to mention "squint-eyed Southerners") could have made for an exciting story in itself, but alas, was not to be.

I have to confess to feeling a little guilty about constantly lamenting the "lost tales" that were never written, and never will be written. I'm reminded of a music professor who, whenever students expressed regret about Mozart's death at such an early age, would always say "For the love of God, what more would you _ask_ of the man?!"


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## Olorgando (Apr 12, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> ...
> I have to confess to feeling a little guilty about constantly lamenting the "lost tales" that were never written, and never will be written. I'm reminded of a music professor who, whenever students expressed regret about Mozart's death at such an early age, would always say "For the love of God, what more would you _ask_ of the man?!"


Comparing JRRT to *Mozart*! Oh brother, would *that* ever set the (deceased) "modernist" negative critics of JRRT spinning in their graves.
At an rpm that translated into audio (Kilo-)Hertz terms would be in high bat / dolphin territory.
And reduce the audible utterings of the non-deceased to an incomprehensible mixture of Klingon, Vogon and Black Speech. 🤣


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## Red Leaf (Apr 13, 2020)

I must admit to being somewhat sceptical that Boromir managed to find Rivendell with just a 'go north, and to the west of the Misty Mountains you'll find a Hidden valley...'

Given the size of Eregion he could have trapsed around for 10 years and not found it - and yes, I think that Rohan, and Theoden could be the key here: Gandalf seems to have been, if not a regular visitor, then well known throughout Theodens life, and Aragorn had served in the Rohirrim in Thengels' time, and Theodens youth.

That suggests that the relationships/ties between the seperate players was perhaps closer that Tolkien explicitly, or implicitly told us.


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## Olorgando (Apr 13, 2020)

I would tend to seriously doubt that the Rohirrim knew much of anything west of the Misty Mountains. The southernmost part was Dunlending territory past which they were unlikely to have had any first-hand knowledge.
Now it is true that the writings of Isildur about the One Ring that Gandalf found in Minas Tirith (and before him probably Saruman) are at the time of the action just over 3000 years old, and all but illegible to Gondorians of the War of the Ring. But the last contact of Gondor with the remnants of the North-kingdom, Arthedain, was in 1974 Third Age, when crown prince (and last king) of Gondor Eärnur, together with an Elf-host of Lindon led by Cirdan, defeated the Witch-king of Angmar - and into the rout of the Angmar entered reinforcements from Rivendell led by Glorfindel (!). So some knowledge of Rivendell, "only" a bit over 1000 and not 3000 years old, may have been present in Gondor. Especially as Eärnur was "last-king" of Gondor (due to his own rashness), like Arvedui had been für (Arnor) Arthedain. After that began the line of Ruling Stewards which ended with Faramir (or effectively Denethor II).


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