# Who is smarter, melkor or Sauron?



## fëanáro (Jan 21, 2002)

Sauron.
ENDURANCE AND TIME LIVING FREELY.
he did that tha most. thats what counts the most: TIME!


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## Merry (Jan 22, 2002)

I personally don't think either were that smart. Both were very powerful yet otherthrown more than once. True evil should be able to kick ass especially when they are more powerful.


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## TulKas Astaldo (Jan 22, 2002)

Melkor was overthrown twice and Sauron twice, three if you count being killed in The Silmarillion and four if you count the Ring being destroyed...


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## Merry (Jan 22, 2002)

Exactly, this proves my point. Not very smart if you are overthrown more than once!! Frodo could have given Sauron his ring back and still kicked his ass!!

But that is another debate!


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## Beleg Strongbow (Jan 22, 2002)

Melkor= Mightiest Vala, Sauron= Maia of Aule
Melkor= Made dragons, balrogs, orcs and corrupted sauron and other maia.
Sauron-= Made a ring and maybe a better race of orcs
Melkor= Deceived the vala
Sauron= Decieved a powerhungry man Ar Pharzon
In the sil it says that the vala have the greater power then maia whichare sort of a lesser race

I took the valar and the elves and men to kill Melkor.
For sauron they sent 5 maia and the waning elves and men could finish them off then 2 hobbits could i think i know who is smarter


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## Beleg Strongbow (Jan 22, 2002)

Also the vala in their haste forgot sauron and left him in M.E otherwise he would have faced the same doom as Melkor


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## Lord Aragorn (Jan 22, 2002)

Sauron decieved a few men and elves... Melkor deceived the Eldar of Valinor and had the, sorry for bluntness, "balls" to parade into Valinor, a gigantic evil spider in tote, kill the Two Trees and steal the Silmarils, the most precious things to the Eldar then head back to ME knowign the Noldor would come along only to meet their doom. So what if he was taken down eventually, the Vala themselves had to come in and kick his butt. Sauron allows two hobbits and a small army of men destroy him in the end. Melkor was far smarter in my opinion, as was he more powerful.


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## Beleg Strongbow (Jan 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Lord Aragorn _
> *Sauron decieved a few men and elves... Melkor deceived the Eldar of Valinor and had the, sorry for bluntness, "balls" to parade into Valinor, a gigantic evil spider in tote, kill the Two Trees and steal the Silmarils, the most precious things to the Eldar then head back to ME knowign the Noldor would come along only to meet their doom. So what if he was taken down eventually, the Vala themselves had to come in and kick his butt. Sauron allows two hobbits and a small army of men destroy him in the end. Melkor was far smarter in my opinion, as was he more powerful. *





Exactly what i said Melkor acheived a lot more then Sauron he had the whole of Beleriand under his control and Sauron had what Mordor and Dol Guldur. The opisition then was a lot stronger 2.


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## Bucky (Jan 22, 2002)

One = 'Vala'
Plural = 'Valar'

Sorry for the grammer lesson, I know it seems picky.

BTW, No Vala was in the Host of the West when Morgoth was thrown down.
Eonwe, herald of Manwe led the Host.
The Silmarillion says Sauron was brought before him & begged for pardon. Eonwe said 'It's not in my power to pardon those of my order".
So, Sauron books off....

I never could understand that.
It would be like Bin Ladin being captured & brought before a US General & begging for a pardon, which of course, would be beyond the General's authority & power to do. 
So, would the General just let Bin Ladin go?
No, they'd drag his behind back to Washington & let the Higher-ups decide his fate.

I mean Sauron has CLEARLY shown by this time that he is capable of causing severe havoc.
Shouldn't he have been bound & dragged back to Manwe for judgement like Morgoth?
Eonwe & company didn't let the Dragons or Balrogs go free, did they? 
Why Sauron then?



>>>True evil should be able to kick ass especially when
they are more powerful.

Name ONE example where evil isn't eventually defeated.....


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## Beleg Strongbow (Jan 22, 2002)

You are right.


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## fëanáro (Jan 23, 2002)

Sorry men but lots of you aint answering the main poll´s question.

When I posted this poll, i thougt i made it clear though, i was just talking smartwise: "Who is smarter?"
not:
Who is Stronger?
Who is more powerful?
Who did the most?
Who achieved the most?
or Who had more "balls"?

I was just talking about intelligence, and that is measured by mistakes and achievments, not achievements as a whole, or as a quantity, but the importance of the achievementes, the quality they accomplished. And more important that achievements i think intelligence is measured by the errors and the greatness of those. I also think that Sauron making the ring made himself vulnerable if someone else used it against him, but Melkor did others, i cant recall right now.

Probably they were both very smart, and the doubt about who was smarter is a little controversial. 
First I thought that evil wants to endure above all, because making sure they endure they make sure evil will last longer. And Sauron Endured 2 ages longer than Melkor and did what he pleased for more time than him. He never got caught (well destroyed at the end). And Melkor got in "jail" twice and the second time for ever. (well it says that until Manwë withdraws from his leadership in "the simarillion")

so... I thought TIME was the most important factor.


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## Úlairi (Jan 23, 2002)

Melkor was the more powerful simply because he was a Vala and Sauron was a Maia. But Sauron was of the highest order of the Maia of Aule making him a very powerful Maia. The Valar were worried enough to send five maia onto just one! Sauron was smarter for he put a lot of his being in the one ring. Enough to corrupt men and elves alike. So he had chances of coming back! He also waited until the race of men and elves were weaker so then covering the land in a second darkness wouldn't be as hard as when Numenor existed. It was by chance and luck that Frodo and Sam succeeded. Lots of Sauron's servants had basically left Mordor to destroy the last strong city in Middle-earth and nearly succeeded if the Lord of the Nazgul wasn't killed. When the Mouth Of Sauron came and showed Frodo and Sam's stuff Gandalf knew that Middle-earth was doomed for Sauron had left a large enough portion of his armies to destroy the army of Gondor and Gandalf feared that Middle-earth would be covered in a second darkness with or without the ring and sooner or later [if Frodo and Sam had hidden it before being captured and killed (this is all hypothetical)], Sauron would have found the Ring and would be nearly indomitable unless the Valar came themselves and destroyed but as it is said in the Sil. The Valar would never leave Aman until Melkor escaped from the outside. My conclusion is that Sauron is the smarter of the two and it was just unlucky to be defeated by two hobbits.


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## Tyaronumen (Jan 24, 2002)

I don't think anything in Tolkien's work addresses the inherent intelligence of Melkor and Sauron... now if only we could see those Mensa scores for comparison...

Anyhow -- evil can be very intelligent intellectually, but lacks completely in the intelligence of the heart that comes when one lives in balance with one's surroundings. This 'intelligence of the heart' -- compassion, intuition, love being components of it -- provides the counter to the intellect of the mind to make decisions with wisdom and mercy.

By that definition, neither Melkor nor Sauron had much intelligence, albeit great intellect. Reminds me an awful lot of modern day world leaders.


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## fëanáro (Jan 24, 2002)

i believe in the words from Tyaronumen almost completly and I think Ulairi has a strong point of view which i think could be right.


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