# Where were the elves?



## Jan (Feb 24, 2004)

In "The Return of the King", when Gondor, Rohan, hobbits, Gandalf, etc. are fighting the final battles against Sauron, where were the elves? Galadriel and Elrond had not yet gone into the West, and Arwen's brothers were at the battles, as was Legolas, but where were the rest of the elves? There must have been others at Rivendell, Lorien, and Mirkwood? 

Also, why weren't the Dwarves fighting either? Surely they hadn't all already been killed? Gimli wasn't the only dwarf left in Middle Earth, I think.

Where was everybody?????


----------



## Turin (Feb 24, 2004)

As far as I know, the elves had enough trouble defending their own lands, the army of Lothlorien wasn't overwealmingly large so they couldn't spare too many to send off to war. As for the dwarves pretty much the same thing applies, atleast the dwarves of the lonely mountain. I'm pretty sure that they where under attack by the goblins and wargs of the misty mountains as well as from Mordor.


----------



## Miss Rainbow (Feb 24, 2004)

Jan said:


> In "The Return of the King", when Gondor, Rohan, hobbits, Gandalf, etc. are fighting the final battles against Sauron, where were the elves? Galadriel and Elrond had not yet gone into the West, and Arwen's brothers were at the battles, as was Legolas, but where were the rest of the elves? There must have been others at Rivendell, Lorien, and Mirkwood?
> 
> Also, why weren't the Dwarves fighting either? Surely they hadn't all already been killed? Gimli wasn't the only dwarf left in Middle Earth, I think.
> 
> Where was everybody?????


    You know what?-I think that all the elves, dwarves, etc., were probably right there all along, but the film was so action packed that it is really difficult to be able to see everybody at once because of all the fast action; we have to see the film again, & again to catch everything; but then again maybe the rest of the people you mentioned were either very busy elsewhere doing something very important, or maybe a lot of them were killed; I SURE HOPE NOT!!-But they just have to be there somewhere!! I really hope I was a help to you; God Bless you....


----------



## Turin (Feb 24, 2004)

Miss Rainbow said:


> You know what?-I think that all the elves, dwarves, etc., were probably right there all along, but the film was so action packed that it is really difficult to be able to see everybody at once because of all the fast action



I think that Jan was reffering to LotR books, rather than the movies , then again, maybe not.


----------



## Ithrynluin (Feb 24, 2004)

As Turin points out, war had broken out on the borders of every realm of the free peoples of Middle-Earth. Lórien was assaulted thrice, as were the 'kingdoms' of Thranduil, Dain, and King Brand. There was no report of Rivendell being attacked, however. 

I advise you to read the appendices, Jan. Lots of interesting stuff in there!


----------



## Grond (Feb 24, 2004)

ithrynluin said:


> As Turin points out, war had broken out on the borders of every realm of the free peoples of Middle-Earth. Lórien was assaulted thrice, as were the 'kingdoms' of Thranduil, Dain, and King Brand. There was no report of Rivendell being attacked, however.
> 
> I advise you to read the appendices, Jan. Lots of interesting stuff in there!


And to add to what my good friend ithrynluin has to say... here is some of that information from the Appendecies.


> _from The Return of the King, Apendix B, The Tale of the Years,_
> 11 Gollum visits Shelob, but seeing Frodo asleep nearly repents. Denethor sends Faramir to Osgiliath. Aragorn reaches Linhir and crosses into Lebennin. Eastern Rohan is invaded from the north. _*First assault on Lórien.*_
> -------------
> 15 In the early hours the Witch-king breaks the Gates of the City. Denethor burns himself on a pyre. The horns of Rohirrim are heard at cockcrow. Battle of the Pelennor. Théoden is slain. Aragorn raises the standard of Arwen. Frodo and Samwise escape and begin their journey north along the Morgai. Battle under the trees in Mirkwood; *Thranduil repels the forces of Dol Guldur. Second assault on Lórien.*
> ...


Just a taste of what's in the back of the book.


----------



## Jan (Feb 25, 2004)

Grond:

Thanks for all the stuff in the back of the book! Why didn't I think of looking there??? Okay...now I see that the elves and dwarves had their hands full and were certainly doing their share of fighting.

I really need to spend more time in the appendixes (appendices?).


----------



## Aulë (Feb 25, 2004)

Ah Grond, you forgot the quotes to do with the attack on Erebor. I know you don't like Dwarves, but that doesn't mean you have to forget them .



> _LotR: Appendices_
> 17 Battle of Dale. King Brand and King Dáin Ironfoot fall. Many Dwarves and Men take refuge in Erebor and are besieged.
> ------------------
> 25 At the same time as the great armies besieged Minas Tirith a host of the allies of Sauron that had long threatened the borders of King Brand crossed the River Carnen, and Brand was driven back to Dale. There he had the aid of the Dwarves of Erebor; and there was a great battle at the Mountain's feet It lasted three days, but in the end both King Brand and King Dáin Ironfoot were slain, and the Easterlings had the victory. But they could not take the Gate. and many, both Dwarves and Men, took refuge in Erebor, and there withstood a siege.
> When news came of the great victories in the South, then Sauron's northern army was filled with dismay; and the besieged came forth and routed them, and the remnant fled into the East and troubled Dale no more. Then Bard II, Brand's son, became King in Dale, and Thorin III Stonehelm, Dáin's son, became King under the Mountain. They sent their ambassadors to the crowning of King Elessar; and their realms remained ever after, as long as they lasted, in friendship with Gondor; and they were under the crown and protection of the King of the West.


----------



## aragil (Feb 25, 2004)

Anybody for discussing what the Rivendell Elves (especially that sloucher Glory-pants) were doing during the War of the Ring? I've been doing so (rather inappropriately) in the movie forums. As Grond associates with the Gwath-i-Mirdain, I'd especially like to hear his take.


----------



## jallan (Feb 25, 2004)

Maybe, when attacked, the Beornings or Galadriel or both sent messengers to Imladris asking for help.

Maybe Elrond sent help and even rode out himself.

But the war was over.

Nothing worth telling.


----------



## Grond (Feb 25, 2004)

aragil said:


> Anybody for discussing what the Rivendell Elves (especially that sloucher Glory-pants) were doing during the War of the Ring? I've been doing so (rather inappropriately) in the movie forums. As Grond associates with the Gwath-i-Mirdain, I'd especially like to hear his take.


I always visualized Elrond sitting on his hands in Imladris during the entire War or the Ring saying to himself, "Lose Aragorn, lose! Then my precious Arwen will ride over the water with me and will always be with me!" 

Even an Elf-lord has his own precious. 


Okay, seriously, I always felt that the Elves of Imladris were already leaving. Remember Frodo coming across departing Elves as he was leaving the Shire. Also, one must remember that Imladris housed the last of the Noldorin Elves and was not a Silvan community as was Thranduil's and Celeborn's realms. The Silvans's had a huge stake in the outcome of the War as they weren't drawn to the West in the same manner as the "High Elves". Again, these are just my thoughts... and could be wrong.


----------



## Ithrynluin (Feb 25, 2004)

> I always visualized Elrond sitting on his hands in Imladris during the entire War or the Ring saying to himself, "Lose Aragorn, lose! Then my precious Arwen will ride over the water with me and will always be with me!"
> 
> Even an Elf-lord has his own precious.


I think movie Elrond is invading your mind there, Grondster!   

Concerning the topic - I do wonder why Imladris was not assaulted during the WoTR. Grond, your explanation of why the Rivendell Elves weren't involved in the WoTR too much is plausible but I wonder why they weren't attacked. I think there were plenty of Orc dwellings in the Misty Mountains. I doubt Sauron said to himself "Ah well, they're leaving anyhow, I won't bother _them_."  

Or were his plans simply to subjugate the 'nearer' kingdoms first and then move on further west (e.g.: Rohan, Rivendell, Isengard...)? Or perhaps he simply didn't have enough troops to attack all these destinations at once?


----------



## jallan (Feb 25, 2004)

No-one knew what Sauron’s plans would be exactly. At the Council some fear is expressed for the safety of sending the Ring to the Havens.

Instead of simultaneous attacks on various enemies Sauron might have instead attacked them one by one, possibly, for example, first turning _all_ his force against Lothlórien (or even against Rivendell).

Galadriel claims to know all that the Dark Lord is thinking, at least where it concerns Elves. But she may be indulging in some hyperbole. And plans can change.


Grond said:


> Remember Frodo coming across departing Elves as he was leaving the Shire.


Gildor announces himself as:


> Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finrod. We are Exiles, and most of our kindred have long ago departed and we too are now only tarrying here a while, ere we return over the Great Sea. But some of our kinsfolk dwell still in peace in Rivendell.


But by “tarrying for a little while” does Gildor mean only for a few more months or does he envision remaining for several centuries yet? It’s hard to tell with Elves.

I get the impression that departure in the near future is not what is indicated or Gildor would not have said “tarrying here a while” but something like “also preparing to depart”.

In any case, they were not departing at that time as they are heading east when Frodo meets them and they allow Frodo to accompany them in part because they are going the same way.

From _The Road Goes Ever On_, “Notes and Translations”, on the song beginning “A Elbereth Gilthoniel” heard by Frodo in Rivendell:


> The High Elves in Rivendell could only be said to “gaze afar” in yearning. But actually the form used in the hymn is _palandíriel_ (past part.), “having gazed afar.” This is a reference to the _palantír_ upon the Tower Hills (the “Stone of Elendil”); see note 2 in Appendix A, Vol. III, p. 322. This alone of the _palantíri_ was so made as to look out only west over the Sea. After the fall of Elendil the High-Elves took back this Stone into their own care, and it was not destroyed, nor again used by Men.
> The High-Elves (such as did not dwell near the Havens) journeyed to the Tower Hills at intervals to look afar to _Eressëa_ (the Elvish isle) and the Shores of Valinor, close to which it lay. The hymn in Vol. I, p. 250; is one appropriate to Elves who have just returned from such a pilgrimage.
> No doubt Gildor and his companions (Vol. I., Chap. 3), since they appear to have been going eastward, were Elves living in or near Rivdnell returning from the _palantír_ of the Tower Hills. On such visits they were sometimes rewarded by a vision, clear but remote, of Elbereth, as a majestic figure, shining white, standing upon the mountain _Oiolosse_ (S. _Uilos_). It was then that she was also addressed by the title _Fanuilos_.


As to why Rivendell and the Havens were not attacked, it was possible that originally the area north of the White Mountains and west of the Misty Mountains was to be Saruman’s lookout.


----------



## Ithrynluin (Feb 25, 2004)

jallan said:


> But by “tarrying for a little while” does Gildor mean only for a few more months or does he envision remaining for several centuries yet? It’s hard to tell with Elves.
> 
> I get the impression that departure in the near future is not what is indicated or Gildor would not have said “tarrying here a while” but something like “also preparing to depart”.





> _The Lord of the Rings; The Grey Havens_
> There was Gildor and many fair Elven folk; and there to Sam’s wonder rode Elrond and Galadriel.


So Gildor does indeed leave. The possibility of him only accompanying Galadriel and Elrond or some of his folk to the Havens would seem a bit of a stretch.


----------



## Grond (Feb 25, 2004)

jallan, your own quote enhances my assertion.


> _from The Fellowship of the Ring, Three is Company,_
> ...'I am Gildor,' answered their leader, the Elf who had first hailed him. 'Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finrod. We are Exiles, and *most of our kindred have long ago departed* and we too are now only tarrying here a while, ere we return over the Great Sea. But some of our kinsfolk dwell still in peace in Rivendell.


This speaks of a diminished people and I don't recall Silvan Elves being in Elrond's entourage, that would leave him with remnants of Noldor and possibly some Sindar. Most of the Noldor and many of the Sindar left Middle-earth after the end of the First Age while even more left after the original War with Sauron led by Gil-galad and Elendil.


> _from The Return of the King, Appendix B,_
> ...The First Age ended with the Great Battle, in which the Host of Valinor broke Thangorodrim1 and overthrew Morgoth. Then most of the Noldor returned into the Far West2 and dwelt in Eressëa within sight of Valinor; and many of the Sindar went over Sea also.


So, 
1) We have Imladris not nearly as populated as the other realms... hence, they really had no army to send out. 
2) We have the orcs of the Misty Mountains who aren't necessarily under anyone's direct control.
3) We have the Misty Mountains that any army would have to navigate. Moria's main bridge is broken. 
4) In summary, I would say that Sauron had no real interest in such a strategically challenging attack as to try and traverse the Misty Mountains and attack Imladris, Bree and the Shire. If he knew anything at all about the western parts of Middle-earth, he would know that his greatest peril lay with Gondor, Rohan, Lorien, Thranduil's Realm and the Dwarves under the mountain. Were he to win there, Imladris and lands west would be a cake walk.


----------



## Confusticated (Feb 25, 2004)

Yeah Rivendell was populated with Sindar and Noldor.

But not just _any_ Noldor! Nay! You had the proudest, most stubborn badass Noldor outside of Mandos. All the wusses had ran back to Eressea in the Second Age. Why I wouldn't be surprised if those Noldor were camping at the edges of the valley just daring Sauron to come! They were about to leave Middle-earth, but be damned if they'd let it look like Sauron's military threat was the cause! 

Right Inder?


----------



## Minuel Lasgalas (Feb 25, 2004)

Nóm said:


> Yeah Rivendell was populated with Sindar and Noldor.
> 
> But not just _any_ Noldor! Nay! You had the proudest, most stubborn badass Noldor outside of Mandos. All the wusses had ran back to Eressea in the Second Age. Why I wouldn't be surprised if those Noldor were camping at the edges of the valley just daring Sauron to come! They were about to leave Middle-earth, but be damned if they'd let it look like Sauron's military threat was the cause!
> 
> Right Inder?



If THAT descriptive doesn't paint a potent picture, nothing does


----------



## aragil (Feb 25, 2004)

Not just any Noldor indeed! (jallan knows where I'm going with this, though he doesn't agree).
Rivendell was established as a sanctuary for the Elves of Eregion, the Elves responsible for the whole 'Ring business'. I think they had a little debt to work off- what they did was the equivalent of accidentally developing Nuclear Weapons for the Nazis. Ooops!
So why didn't they come help? It's plain they weren't expecting an attack, as the sons of Elrond travelled all the way to Gondor just to do battle. If they could have reasonably expected to fight on their own doorstep then I imagine they wouldn't have bothered with such a long trip.

Granted they didn't have a huge force to send, but neither did the remaining Dunedain of Arnor, and they went. So why did Rivendell sit it out? I imagine the likes of Gildor, Glorfindel, and even Erestor would have been some help to the people of the West.


----------



## Jan (Feb 25, 2004)

Here I am back again, having gotten this thread started and then reading all your wonderful and insightful replies.

Aside from attacks on the homefront, and maybe dwindling populations, I might propose another, albeit probably more vague, reason. As I read through the book again and again, the main feeling I get with the elves in LOTR is simply that they are in the past, fading away, and not quite in step with what is going on around them. They have knowledge, they have wisdom, but...fading. I think about this when Frodo & Company are in their little elf boats leaving Lorien, and Galadriel and her elves are in their boats going the other direction. They (elves) seem to be part of another time almost.

Like I said, this is vague.


----------



## jallan (Feb 26, 2004)

Aragil posted:


> Rivendell was established as a sanctuary for the Elves of Eregion, the Elves responsible for the whole 'Ring business'.


In your imagination Aragil. This is not indicated anywhere by Tolkien and irrelevant for the end of the Third Age when the Elves of Eregion had long departed Middle-earth.

Legolas says:


> But the Elves of this land were of a race strange to us of the silvan folk, and the trees and the grass do not now remember them: Only I hear the stones lament them: _deep they delved us, fair they wrought us, high they builded us; but they are gone_. They are gone. They sought the Havens long ago.


The former Elves of Eregion are no longer in Middle-earth. That#8217;s plain enough.

Nothing contradicts this.

As to the foundation of Imladris, from _Unfinished Tales_, “History of Galadriel and Celeborn”, after Sauron turns on Elrond’s forces in Eregion:


> Elrond had gathered such few of the Elves of Eregion as had escaped, but he had not force to withstand the onset. He would indeed have been overwhelmed had not Sauron’s host been attacked in the rear: for Durin sent out a force of Dwarves from Khazad-dûm, and with them came Elves of Lórinand led by Amroth. Elrond was able to extricate himself, but he was forced away northwards, and it was at that time [in the year 1697, according to the Tale of Years] that he established a refuge and stronghold at Imladris (Rivendell).
> <snip>
> But now Sauron attempted to gain the mastery of Eriador. Lórinand could wait. But as he ravaged the lands, slaying or drawing off all the small groups of Men and hunting the remaining Elves, many fled to swell Elrond’s host to the northward.


It is not said here what happened to “such few of the Elves of Eregion as had escaped”. It is not said what Elves settled in the refuge and stronghold of Imladris. It is not unreasonable to imagine that at least some of the Elves of Eregion settled there at that time. But Tolkien doesn’s actually say that.

Three years later in 1700:


> The army that was besieging Imladris was caught between Elrond and Gil-galad, and utterly destroyed. Eriador was cleared of the enemy, but lay largely in ruins.
> At this time the first Council was held, and it was there determined that an Elvish stronghold in the east of Eriador should be maintained at Imladris rather than in Eregion. At that time also Gil-galad gave Vilya, the Blue Ring, to Elrond, and appointed him to be his vice-regent in Eriador;


This seems to indicate a strengthening of Imladris but not a word about who dwelt there.

From the Tale of Years in Appendix B:


> 1697 Eregion laid waste. Death of Celebrimbor. The gates of Moria are shut. Elrond retreats with remnant of the Noldor and founds the refuge of Imladris.


But not one of these texts even says that a single Elf from Eregion so much as saw Imladris. It is reasonable that the few survivors of Eregion might have dwelt there until at last they sought the Havens, perhaps at the end of the Second Age. But we are not _told_ that.

Since Legolas says clearly that the Elves of Eregion sought the Havens long ago, regardless of where for a time they may have lived, any Elves of Eregion who might have lived in Imladris are long gone. Perhaps none ever lived there at all.

As to the inhabitants of Imladris in the Third Age, from “The Rings of Power and the Third Age”:


> In all the days of the Third Age, after the fall of Gil-galad, Master Elrond abode in Imladris, and he gathered there many Elves and other folk of wisdom and power from among all the kindreds of Middle-earth, and he preserved through many lives of Men the memory of all that had been fair; and the house of Elrond was a refuge for the weary and the oppressed, and a treasury of good counsel and wise lord.


No mention of Elves of Eregion here either.

Perhaps you think the word _refuge_ used of Imladris proves it was at first the dwelling for _refugees_ from Eregion. But the word _refuge_ in the context that Tolkien uses it does not mean that.

See Google search: refuge and stronghold -Tolkien -Psalm for actual usage of the phrase _refuge and stronghold_.

Refuge means:


> 1. Protection or shelter, as from danger or hardship. 2. A place providing protection or shelter. 3. A source of help, relief, or comfort in times of trouble. See synonyms at shelter.


It does not especially mean a place settled by refugees. A place later settled by refugees might not itself be a good refuge.

From Small Wall:


> In his book, A History of Warfare, John Keegan speaks of three forms of fortification—refuges, strongholds, and strategic defenses. He describes the refuge as a place of short-term safety from an enemy who does not possess the means for a protracted siege or who wishes only to raid and carry off plunder, perhaps repeatedly over time.


Imladris is both refuge and stronghold, that is not only a powerfully garisoned fortress but one able to serve as refuge for large numbers. _Refuge_ as a kind of fortress is generally used to refer to any fortress intended to be used for refuge by surrounding folk during war. Not all fortresses are good refuges, being perhaps very small with room for only a very limited number, intended as a base for soldiers.

Tolkien uses the word in its technical sense when not referring to something that is a temporary place of refuge:


> Meanwhile your people that are left, the women and the children and the old, should stay to the refuges that you have in the mountains.





> ‘Well, here is our refuge,’ said Faramir. ‘Not a place of great ease but here you may pass the night in peace.’





> ‘There are two answers, I think,’ said Frodo. ‘For one thing, he knows little of Men, and sly though he is, your refuge is so hidden that perhaps he does not know that Men are concealed here.’





> When they had gathered there all the force that they could (for Eldacar had no ships to beset them by sea) they sailed away, and established themselves at Umbar. There they made a refuge for all the enemies of the king, and a lordship independent of his crown. Umbar remained at war with Gondor for many lives of men, a threat to its coastlands and to all traffic on the sea.





> It was Túrin that built secret refuges for his soldiers in Ithilien, of which Henneth Annûn was the longest guarded and manned.





> Helm was driven back with great loss from the Crossings of Isen and took refuge in the Hornburg and the ravine behind (which was after known as Helm's Deep).





> 2901 Most of the remaining inhabitants of Ithilien desert it owing to the attacks of Uruks of Mordor. The secret refuge of Henneth Annûn is built.


Aragil has his own axe to grind.


Aragil said:


> If they could have reasonably expected to fight on their own doorstep then I imagine they wouldn't have bothered with such a long trip.


The Rangers ride to aid Aragorn following a summons sent by Galadriel. We are not told the words in that summons, but Halbard says:


> ... but the brethren Elladan and Elrohir have ridden with us, desiring to go to the war.


The words are not “to war”. Presumably “the war” was mentioned in the summons. The impending war with Saruman was likely intended as they also somehow know that Aragorn is in Rohan, that he has not gone to Minas Tirith as was expected. None of this is explained by Tolkien ... other than that Gandalf and Galadriel both know much more than would be expected of less magical beings (but don’t know everything). I had always thought the brothers came because of particular friendship with Aragorn. You may imagine other motives if you wish and imagine motives for other Elves not accompanying them other than not being summoned and having concerns of their own.

You might also imagine that Rivendell was attacked by Orcs from the Misty Mountains but that the attack was not important enough to be mentioned in the chronicles.


----------



## Grond (Feb 26, 2004)

jallan,

What are you thinking? The biggest problem with your argument is that the Elves of Eregion were not the only Noldor left on Middle-earth. Gil-galad and his entourage were all descended from the Noldo and they most assuredly saw Imladris.


> _from The Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age,_
> Now Elendil and Gil-galad took counsel together, for they perceived that Sauron would grow too strong and would overcome all his enemies one by one, if they did not unite against him. Therefore they made that League which is called the Last Alliance, and they marched east into Middle-earth _*gathering a great host of Elves and Men; and they halted for a while at Imladris.*_ It is said that the host that was there assembled was fairer and more splendid in arms than any that has since been seen in Middle-earth, and none greater has been mustered since the host of the Valar went against Thangorodrim.





> _from The Silmarillion, Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin,_
> And when the tidings came to Balar of the fall of Gondolin and the death of Turgon, Ereinion Gil-galad son of Fingon was named High King of the Noldor in Middle-earth.





> _from Unfinished Tales, Appendix A, The Silvan Elves and Their Speech,_
> The Silvan Elves hid themselves in woodland fastnesses beyond the Misty Mountains, and became small and scattered people, hardly to be distinguished from Avari; but they still remembered that they were in origin Eldar, members of the Third Clan, and they _*welcomed those of the Noldor*_ and especially the Sindar who did not pass over the Sea but migrated eastward i.e. at the beginning of the Second Age. Under the leadership of these they became again ordered folk and increased in wisdom. Thranduil father of Legolas of the Nine Walkers was Sindarin, and that tongue was used in his house, though not by all his folk.


And, of course, surely, Galadriel had been to Imladris and seen it. She was a Noldor. 

So many, many Noldor had seen Imladris over the years spanning the Second and Third Age. And why on earth would you try to assert that some wouldn't have made it home.

And finally, what Elven-smith besides a Noldor would have the skill to reforge Narsil? The description of the reforging and the subsequent description of Anduril are Noldorin or I'm not a hammer.


----------



## Tar-Elenion (Feb 27, 2004)

I don't think that was jallan's argument. He was only referring to those of Eregion.


----------



## aragil (Feb 27, 2004)

jallan said:


> In your imagination Aragil.
> ...
> You may imagine other motives if you wish and imagine motives for other Elves not accompanying them other than not being summoned and having concerns of their own.
> 
> You might also imagine that Rivendell was attacked by Orcs from the Misty Mountains but that the attack was not important enough to be mentioned in the chronicles


 Do you have a true problem treating people with respect, or is it just me? I am not _imagining_ anything, jallan.
As you say, it is reasonable to assume that when Elrond leads the Elves of Eregion to the North and then establishes a refuge, that the Noldor of Eregion then live in the refuge. We have to do this often, as Tolkien does not always give explicit statements:


> ‘Precious, precious, precious!’ Gollum cried. ‘My Precious! O my Precious!’ And with that, even as his eyes were lifted up to gloat on his prize, he stepped too far, toppled, wavered for a moment on the brink, and then with a shriek he fell. Out of the depths came his last wail Precious, and he was gone.


 Tolkien does not say that Gollum fell into the fire, nor does he say that the Ring went with him. I suppose we could imagine that by "and he was gone" Tolkien meant to imply that Gollum had gone to the Havens, the first weary Ring-bearer to travel to Tol Eressea.
But then, that is quite ridiculous. Most of us would think that a more reasonable reading would be that Gollum fell into the lava, and took the Ring with him.
Similarly,


> Elrond had gathered such few of the Elves of Eregion as had escaped, but he had not force to withstand the onset. He would indeed have been overwhelmed had not Sauron’s host been attacked in the rear: for Durin sent out a force of Dwarves from Khazad-dûm, and with them came Elves of Lórinand led by Amroth. Elrond was able to extricate himself, but he was forced away northwards, and it was at that time [in the year 1697, according to the Tale of Years] that he established a refuge and stronghold at Imladris (Rivendell).


 and


> 1697 Eregion laid waste. Death of Celebrimbor. The gates of Moria are shut. Elrond retreats with remnant of the Noldor and founds the refuge of Imladris.


 are most reasonably read as meaning that 'such few of the Elves of Eregion' that were with Elrond initially were still with him when he established Rivendell. Tolkien establishes them as being with Elrond initially, and never makes any indication that this arrangement changes before Elrond founds Imladris. Of course, Tolkien himself didn't decide this history of Imladris until long after he had attributed the 'sought the havens' speech to Legolas. It is evident (to me at any rate) that in between the time he gave the speech to Legolas and when he finally figured out how Imladris came to be, that he had had a change in conception about the Eregion Noldor. You can parse words about this as much as you want to- to me it is the same as arguing that Gollum actually went to the havens.


----------



## jallan (Feb 29, 2004)

Grond said:


> The biggest problem with your argument is that the Elves of Eregion were not the only Noldor left on Middle-earth. Gil-galad and his entourage were all descended from the Noldo and they most assuredly saw Imladris.


Tar-Elenion’s answering post is correct. I was concerned only with the Elves of Eregion as was Aragil in his post, not with the Noldor in general or Elves of Middle-earth in general.


Aragil said:


> Do you have a true problem treating people with respect, or is it just me? I am not _imagining_ anything, jallan.


I don’t respect your argument. You are filling in Tolkien’s writings beyond their necessary implications to the point of contradicting Tolkien’s clear words.


> Of course, Tolkien himself didn't decide this history of Imladris until long after he had attributed the 'sought the havens' speech to Legolas.


I don’t know when Tolkien decided the history of Imladris. I only know that other than that reference nothing has been published that was written by Tolkien on the matter that was not written later. If you have evidence as to when Tolkien _decided_ on the the concepts we find written later, then present it. The later writing in no way contradicts the early writing.


Aragil said:


> It is evident (to me at any rate) that in between the time he gave the speech to Legolas and when he finally figured out how Imladris came to be, that he had had a change in conception about the Eregion Noldor.


I see no contradiction or tension between anything Tolkien says about the Elves of Eregion in any passage. You have not pointed out any contradiction or tension here. Those Elves sought the Havens long ago. What happened between the time when Elrond gathered the few survivors of the Sauron’s attack on Eregion and the time when those survivors sought the Havens is not found anywhere in Tolkien’s published writings.

I agree and did agree that it was likely enough that they were among those who first settled in Imladris. Yet Tolkien does not even say that definitely. Tolkien might have imagined them, for all I know, wearied with the pains and horrors they had undergone, departing from Middle-earth almost immediately. Or Tolkien may have imagined them leaving much later. Or Tolkien may not have filled in that part of the tale at all in his own mind. I don’t know.

How do you know?

Anything you or I fill it in on that head is not Tolkien’s writing and may or may not agree with what Tolkien himself would have written if he had written in more detail. It is our own imagination, no more valid than imagining Legolas to have dark hair or light hair.

You stated:


> Rivendell was established as a sanctuary for the Elves of Eregion, the Elves responsible for the whole 'Ring business'.


That’s a stronger statement than the texts indicate. Tolkien does not indicate that Imladris was created especially as sanctuary (and _sanctuary_ is an odd word) for the surviving Elves of Eregion rather than as a refuge and stronghold in the technical senses of those words: as a base for resistance and a refuge for any who might need it in the war that had begun.


Aragil said:


> You can parse words about this as much as you want to- to me it is the same as arguing that Gollum actually went to the havens.


I never argued that. Tolkien never says that Gollum sought the Havens. Gollum by any reasonable interpretation dies in the fires of Mount Doom. The surviving Elves of Eregion by any reasonable interpretation left Middle-earth long ago. Tolkien says both in language that is clear enough. Nothing in the texts speaks against either.

Pengolodh might have been one of the Elves of Eregion. From _The War of the Jewels_ (HoME 11), “Quendi and Eldar”, Appendix D:


> Pengolodh is said to have remained in Middle-earth until far on into the Second Age for the furtherance of his enquiries, and for a while to have dwelt among the Dwarves of Casarrondo (Khazad-dûm). But when the shadow of Sauron fell upon Eriador, he left Middle-earth, the last of the _Lambengolmor_, and sailed to Eressëa, where maybe he still abides.


Of course it is only Pengolodh’s dwelling among the Darves of Khazad-dûm that suggests such a connection. Tolkien wrote:


> ... but the friendship that grew up between the people of Durin and the Elven-smiths of Eregion was the closest that there has ever been between the two races.


If Pengolodh was among the Elves of Eregion it would reasonably explain how he came to dwell for a time in Khazad-dûm.

But I would not want to put that much pressure on Tolkien’s words as to say that Tolkien so intended. In fact I do not imagine Pengolodh among the Elves of Eregion. I feel it is likely that Tolkien would have so indicated if he had thought so. But I am aware that is my own imagination, not drawn from Tolkien’s texts which are ambiguous on the matter.

One should always distinguish carefully between what is clearly said in a text and what is not said in a text.


----------



## aragil (Mar 3, 2004)

jallan said:


> I don’t respect your argument. You are filling in Tolkien’s writings beyond their necessary implications to the point of contradicting Tolkien’s clear words. I don’t know when Tolkien decided the history of Imladris. I only know that other than that reference nothing has been published that was written by Tolkien on the matter that was not written later. If you have evidence as to when Tolkien _decided_ on the the concepts we find written later, then present it.


 Legolas' words first appear in HoME 7, chapt 8 (The Ring Goes South). The version given in HoME is:


> 'That is true,' said Legolas. 'But the Elves of this land were of a strange race, and the spirit that dwells here is alien to me, who am of the woodland folk. Here dwelt Noldor, the Elven-wise, and all the stones about cry to me with many voices: they built high towers to heaven, and delved deep to earth, and they are gone. They are gone. They sought the Havens long ago.'


 This is virtually identical to the final text, at least in terms of 'they sought the havens long ago'. However, the first drafting of the foundations of Imladris come from HoME 12, chapter 6:


> 750. Foundation of Imladrist (3) (Rivendell) and Eregion
> (Hollin).
> 900. - Sauron begins in secret to build the fortress of Barad-dur in Mordor, and makes the forges of Orodruin.
> 1200-1500. The Rings of Power are made in Eregion.
> ...


 Here Imladris is established long before Eregion is laid waste. Elrond does not retreat there with the remnant of the Noldor from Eregion. I can't say for certain when this was written, but it was obviously long after the words of Legolas were first penned in 1942, probably ~1948. Even after this date it is clear that Tolkien's conception of Rivendell changed- it became founded in the wake of the ruin of Eriador.




jallan said:


> I agree and did agree that it was likely enough that they were among those who first settled in Imladris. Yet Tolkien does not even say that definitely. Tolkien might have imagined them, for all I know, wearied with the pains and horrors they had undergone, departing from Middle-earth almost immediately. Or Tolkien may have imagined them leaving much later. Or Tolkien may not have filled in that part of the tale at all in his own mind. I don’t know.


 I think it extremely unlikely that Tolkien intended for any of the Eregion Elves to slip away after Elrond gathered them up. You yourself have oftentimes quoted Galadriel and Celeborn from UT, so you will doubtless have noticed that from the time Elrond 'extricates' himself from Eregion he has precious little time to make it North to Rivendell, and that once he is there he is besieged by Sauron. It seems quite impossible that Eregion Elves could have escaped before the siege, and equally impossible that Elrond could have held out the siege without the additional manpower afforded by the Eregion Elves. Indeed, right before the siege is established Tolkien describes Elves of Eriador as having "fled to swell Elrond's host", after having mentioned the establishment of Imladris in the previous paragraph. Again, I take it as certainty that Eregion Elves were among the founders of Imladris, especially given the appendix B entry:


> 1697 Eregion laid waste. Death of Celebrimbor. The gates of Moria are shut. Elrond retreats with remnant of the Noldor and founds the refuge of Imladris.


 The remnant of the Noldor are the Noldor of Eregion. Elrond retreats with them and founds Imladris. I don't know how much more explicit Tolkien had to be- this is certainly explicit enough to satisfy me.



jallan said:


> Tolkien does not indicate that Imladris was created especially as sanctuary (and _sanctuary_ is an odd word) for the surviving Elves of Eregion rather than as a refuge and stronghold in the technical senses of those words: as a base for resistance and a refuge for any who might need it in the war that had begun.


Sanctuary is not my choice of words, but Tolkien's, as I mentioned in the earlier thread on this subject:


> _From Letter 131, to Milton Waldman_
> Sauron became thus almost supreme in Middle-earth. The Elves held out in secret places (not yet revealed). The last Elf-Kingdom of Gilgalad is maintained precariously on the extreme west-shores, where are the havens of the Ships. Elrond the Half-elven, son of Earendil, maintains a kind of enchanted sanctuary at Imladris (in English Rivendell) on the extreme eastern margin of the western lands.


----------



## jallan (Mar 4, 2004)

Aragil said:


> Here Imladris is established long before Eregion is laid waste. Elrond does not retreat there with the remnant of the Noldor from Eregion.


I accept the correction on an earlier idea of the origin of Imladris.

However in no text does Elrond retreat there with the remnant of the Noldor from Eregion. That the remnat of the Noldor accompany Elrond to the new settlement in Imladris is a reasonable surmise ... but nothing more.


Aragil said:


> I think it extremely unlikely that Tolkien intended for any of the Eregion Elves to slip away after Elrond gathered them up. You yourself have oftentimes quoted Galadriel and Celeborn from UT, so you will doubtless have noticed that from the time Elrond 'extricates' himself from Eregion he has precious little time to make it North to Rivendell, and that once he is there he is besieged by Sauron. It seems quite impossible that Eregion Elves could have escaped before the siege, and equally impossible that Elrond could have held out the siege without the additional manpower afforded by the Eregion Elves.


If you can provide figures for the number of Elves in Elrond’s host, both those of his own original following and those of Noldor Elves from Eregion and provide figures for Sauron’s forces and compare fighting abilities and so forth one might make some kind of case one way or the other.

Otherwise there is no case. Again, it is reasonable enough that the Noldorin Elves of Eregion join Elrond in the founding of Imladris. But Tolkien doesn’t tell us that. No matter how reasonable it might be, nothing is said one way or the other in Tolkien’s texts and so it cannot be more than surmise. Again, I keep saying it is a fully reasonable surmise.

I have always said that.

But building a refuge and stronghold cannot be done in a moment. Obviously it took some time. It is wrong to claim that the Eregion Noldor did not have time to go elsewhere.

If a new text of Tolkien’s appeared in which it was told that the Noldor of Eregion did not stay with Elrond but deparated west at that time, it would not contradict anything Tolkien said elsewhere. A reasonable surmise is not the same as fact, whether in commentary on genuine history or feigned history. Part of my pickiness on this point is I have read far too much supposedly historical writing in which reasonable surmise is taken as fact and then later found to be wrong or at least shown to be only one of various possible surmises.


Aragil said:


> Sanctuary is not my choice of words, but Tolkien's, as I mentioned in the earlier thread on this subject:


Yes. But you use the word differently, reffering to a sanctuary made for the Noldor of Eregion, something Tolkien does not say. In your quotation I take _sanctuary_ to mean something like _blessed place_.

That the surviving Noldor of Eregion settled in Imladris I consider reasonable surmise. But it is not stated.

That Imladris was found mainly for the Noldor of Eregion I consider less likely. It is a refuge and stonghold somewhat close to Eregion. Both _refuge_ and _stronghold_ have particular meanings in regards to fortifications and safe places and often used together. Had there been no surviving refugees from Eregion the founding of a refuge and stronghold would have made sense militarily and Imladris might still have described by Tolkien as _refuge and stronghold_. Imladris becomes, as presumably intended, a refuge for many Elves of Eriador when Sauron attacks.

There is no evidence as to whether the Elves of Eregion were 10% or 1% or even less of Elrond’s forces or what percentage they made up of the population of Imladris if they did dwell there.

And of course, Tolkien says that they departed from Middle-earth long ago. Whether they had settle in Imladris or not (and I have indicated again and again I think that a reasonable surmise though not provable) by the end of the Third Age they were long gone.

There is no contradiction with the statement that they departed long ago and anything that Tolkien wrote.

To summarize ... though there is no definite statement about what happened to the “such few of the Elves of Eregion as had escaped” it is very reasonable speculation that Tolkien intended them to have settled in Imladris. But regardless as to whether they settled in Imladris or not, they had departed Middle-earth long before the end of the Third Age. That is not speculation.


----------

