# Are the Valar frisky?



## valaroma (May 24, 2006)

Most of the gods of Olympus and Asgard are frisky. Very frisky. I don't blame them actually. Honestly, if you live forever wouldn't you want a new face say every ten thousand years? I don't mean to upset anyone, but can you imagine living with the same person for a hundred years? I know I can't.

I don't know of any Valar infidelity but I wouldn't rule it out. There is however an interesting thing about the creation of the eagles. Manwe and Yavanna brought them forth. Hmmm, I wonder how exactly they did that. And I wonder whether Varda hate eagles.


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## YayGollum (May 24, 2006)

*Re: Are the VALARs frisky?*

*gasp!* The superly boring and sickeningly perfect elf types would never rever the Valar types that you happen to be asking about, valaroma person!  Infidelity and friskiness? No way, man! Look at how pure and chaste and boring and predictable pretty much every elf ever was. And those boring Valar types only seem to care about elves. They pretty much ignored everything else, unless the circumstance was crazy. Which makes me believe that the Valar types are pretty much elves, but with amazing and unfair powerses.


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## Varokhâr (May 28, 2006)

*Re: Are the VALARs frisky?*

It seems reasonable  Why _not_ be frisky? Sure, what floats their boats may be quite different than what we may think, but in the end, every being except Eru is probably somewhat sexual. Sexuality is part of nature, and the Valar are a part of nature, like all beings.


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## Ithrynluin (May 28, 2006)

*Re: Are the VALARs frisky?*

Tolkien was a devout Catholic and he modelled his creation after his beliefs quite a bit. Some of the Valar have spouses, while the rest are 'single' (a rather inadequate expression when speaking of the Valar, is it not?), but this hardly leaves any room for such a concept as infidelity, at least not among the (good) Ainur, the elves, and the 'good' Men.


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## Varokhâr (May 28, 2006)

*Re: Are the VALARs frisky?*

Then again, would it be accurate to ascribe Catholic morality to beings which had no concept of such, nor lived in a world where such was necessary? Of course, it's all a product of a devout Catholic's mind, but just having magic and sorcery in a story is very un-Catholic (not to get into a religion discussion or anything). 

It's all speculation in the end, but one cannot help but wonder. Unless sexuality just wasn't terribly interesting to the Valar, the possibility for them to engage in it seems open. There was no punishment for infidelity or fornication, and Eru wasn't known to have handed any such rules down, so unless the Valar just weren't wired like that, I think they probably did have a little "fun" of that sort every so often.


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## Ithrynluin (May 28, 2006)

*Re: Are the VALARs frisky?*

That seems very unbecoming of the Valar and of the nature of Tolkien's world. The Valar - 'gods', guardians of Arda, entrusted to uphold the good and keep evil at bay - engaging in lustful acts of unfaithfulness on the side? Or, if we're speaking of those that were unwed, having some casual sex amongst themselves from time to time as a means of venting stress? Sounds completely absurd. I believe the Valar only took up bodies so as to be able to relate to the Elves better, and that they had few of the desires typical of mortals.


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## Varokhâr (May 28, 2006)

*Re: Are the VALARs frisky?*

I guess it depends on how you define "unfaithfulness" - is having extra-marital sex considered evil? 

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I don't recall anywhere that premarital or extramarital sex is mentioned as evil. Assuming all parties are consensual, what is wrong with the act, especially so wrong as to make it "absurd" for a Vala to commit?

Tolkien might have been a devout Catholic, but his writings do not reflect a world where Catholic morality is the de-facto ethical system of all sentient beings. That said, I think the only time it would be "evil" for a Vala (or any being) to engage in such activity would be if it were against the wishes of someone else in a relationship, or otherwise done in secret, without the knowledge of a spouse or significant other.

I certainly can't see how sexual activity of that nature would even prohibit the Vala from their other duties. But to say that they only took up bodies to better relate to and interact with the Eldar does suggest to me that, most likely, sexuality was of little interest to the Valar.


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## Ithrynluin (May 28, 2006)

*Re: Are the VALARs frisky?*

I must disagree with you, at least to an extent. The issue here is not whether pre- or extra-marital sex is "evil" or "wrong" in our own world (by default, I don't think it is), simply whether Tolkien's Valar would have engaged in it. As regards Tolkien's personal beliefs - I do believe he incorporated them into his creation. For example, marriage is said to be a natural course of life for the elves and they would not be parted from their spouse save by death or the like. The "Men of Westernesse" had (taken up?) similar habits. As for the Valar, it's probable that since they are godly beings they may not have some or all of the needs that the Cildren of Ilúvatar possess. However, if they do, I see the Valar behaving alike, except that having a spouse is not necessarily true of each one of them - for example, Ulmo and Nienna seem like loners and they simply may not feel the need for a close companion. To make a long rant short, I would say that if the Valar engage in sexual intercourse at all, they do so strictly within the confines of their partnership, or not at all.


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## Varokhâr (May 29, 2006)

*Re: Are the VALARs frisky?*

I can certainly see the Valar, if they are interested in sexuality to begin with, probably going at it more like the Eldar, ie, monogamy, at least in terms of any long-term relationships. Yet I think the possibility is there; when beings take an interest in sexuality, I'd think an interest in more than only monogamy is possible, even if not probable.

The more I consider it, the more I see it possible that the Valar might have had some passing interest in the matter of sexuality, but perhaps the more numerous Maiar were more interested in sex, relationships, and the like. A higher number of the population may equal a greater number of possible opinions on the matter, which then might lead to different choices being made by different Maiar. Such as Melian and Thingol - not just a sexual relationship, but an inter-racial one, but that's off-topic.

If the Valar took physical form for more than just a better ability to relate to the Eldar, then perhaps sexuality was of interest to them. Question is, would they have been totally monogamous, as the Eldar practiced, or did their "higher intellects" urge any sort of experimentation in the sexual field, simply for the sake of learning, if nothing else?


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## valaroma (May 30, 2006)

Dear Good People,
I am awed at the level of intellect shown here. Being new, I dare say that this forum is by far peopled by some of the most brilliant minds I had ever come across. Eglerio!

Here are some of my observations that may further add to our discussion;

1.) Morgoth and Sauron are both very good at seduction. And I dare say that when Melian "enchanted" Thingol, she was actually seducing him. Therefore I postulate that the entire Ainur can also seduce anybody they want.

2.) Aule created the dwarves in secrecy. None of the other Valar knew about it. My second postulate therefore is; The Valar is capable of hiding their actions and intentions.

3.) I am not trying to pick on Aule here, but apparently he has some human qualities or weaknesses that merit further examination. Both Sauron and Saruman were his servants initially, and most probably very important ones considering their respective powers. He lost them both and didn't seem too much bothered about it. None of the other Valar had their chief servants jumping over the fence to Morgoth. This may well implies that Aule is not very good at taking care of his own household. While he was busy in the mountains attending his dwarves, who was driving away the evil creatures from Yavanna's forests? Orome of course, whose wife was also somewhere else. So the opportunity was there. And I am pretty sure Yavanna was upset most of the time considering the mischief Morgoth brought upon her gardens. Very likely, she would welcomed the consoling embrace of another Vala. If I were Orome, I would consider it a sin not to oblige her.


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## Ithrynluin (May 30, 2006)

Some very interesting points, valaroma.



> 1.) Morgoth and Sauron are both very good at seduction. And I dare say that when Melian "enchanted" Thingol, she was actually seducing him. Therefore I postulate that the entire Ainur can also seduce anybody they want.



I wouldn't go so far as to claim every single Ainur is skilled in 'seduction' or enchantment rather. Those you name certainly were, and I view this strength as part of their natural, inveterate powers. Saruman, too, possessed such a power, i.e. his persuasive voice, but many others certainly didn't exhibit anything in that field, e.g. Radagast or even Gandalf.



> 2.) Aule created the dwarves in secrecy. None of the other Valar knew about it. My second postulate therefore is; The Valar is capable of hiding their actions and intentions.



Hardly surprising and not limited to the Valar. Any member of any race could have kept his intentions or creations secret at least for a while.



> 3.) I am not trying to pick on Aule here, but apparently he has some human qualities or weaknesses that merit further examination. Both Sauron and Saruman were his servants initially, and most probably very important ones considering their respective powers. He lost them both and didn't seem too much bothered about it. None of the other Valar had their chief servants jumping over the fence to Morgoth. This may well implies that Aule is not very good at taking care of his own household. While he was busy in the mountains attending his dwarves, who was driving away the evil creatures from Yavanna's forests? Orome of course, whose wife was also somewhere else. So the opportunity was there. And I am pretty sure Yavanna was upset most of the time considering the mischief Morgoth brought upon her gardens. Very likely, she would welcomed the consoling embrace of another Vala. If I were Orome, I would consider it a sin not to oblige her.



I think we're jumping over colossal chasms of supposition here to reach conclusions. 

Why should the Valar be held responsible for their Maiar's actions? The Maiar were merely helpers of the Valar, I don't think the Valar had any right to command them. We don't know how bothered or not Aulë was at the loss of Sauron and Saruman. Also, Melkor had many, many Maiar join him in the beginning of days, and we certainly don't know from the 'people' of which Valar they all hailed.

Aulë was a smith, not a hunter. It was therefore natural that it was Oromë who pursued Morgoth's servants, since hunting and exploring wild lands were his domain.

How do we know that Vána, the spouse of Oromë, was 'somewhere else'? Another unfounded supposition.

I think we should give the Valar more credit, as concerns their personal strength and resilience. They are being ascribed far too many human traits and made to look like unbridled, hormonally unstable adolescents. Sounds perfect as a script for a Mexican soap , but completely unlikely for the Valar of Arda.

I believe Aulë appeared as perhaps the most 'human' of all the Valar and I think this was linked to his power to create new life (though in a limited sense), which inevitably triggers love which may turn into possessiveness eventually.

***

Here is an interesting thread where we questioned the quality and nature of the relationship of Aulë and Yavanna: Jerry Springer visits Valinor! 

And another one where we delved into the issue of why exactly those skilled at forging and such were prone to err: A greater tendency for rebellion?


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## Varokhâr (May 30, 2006)

Ithrynluin said:


> I think we should give the Valar more credit, as concerns their personal strength and resilience. They are being ascribed far too many human traits and made to look like unbridled, hormonally unstable adolescents. Sounds perfect as a script for a Mexican soap , but completely unlikely for the Valar of Arda.



Lol - Mexican soap, heh.

In all seriousness, that begs another question; why would it be wrong to ascribe the Valar human traits? We've all heard how faulty humans are, yes (both in the real world and in Tolkien's), but why would certain things be considered "faulty" to begin with? Sexual desire, recreational sex, etc - a lot of people would not consider these to be noble traits, and I was once in agreement, but I've come to re-examine those opinions recently, and really can't find anything that "faulty" with them.

In regards to the Valar, for those who were already in committed relationships and yet had sexual relations with others behind the backs of their "spouses" then certainly it could be seen as a wrong action (being a sort of oathbreaking, basically), but if particular Valar in question already had an understanding about "open relationships" and things of that nature, then I don't see the wrong - or the ignobility - in more active sexuality amongst the Valar.

Of course, it's all speculative, since there is much reason to believe the Valar would've conducted themselves in like fashion as did the Eldar, or weren't terribly interested in sexuality to begin with. But if sexuality was of interest to them, and they were not immediately predictable in the sexual department as the Eldar were, then I see the possibility being open for a greater level of sexuality amongst the Valar.


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## Thorondor_ (May 30, 2006)

In the Annals of Aman, it is stated that:


> Note that 'spouse' meant only an 'association'. The Valar had no bodies, but could assume shapes. After the coming of the Eldar they most often used shapes of 'human' form, though taller (not gigantic) and more magnificent.


while in letter #200, the bodies of the valar are stated to be analoguous to our clothes. These two would pretty much rule out 'sexuality'.
Also, concerning infidelity, the valar kept their minds open to each other at all times  (with Melkor the exception). I guess there was no lying about staying late at work, having a drink with Aule, etc, etc...


valaroma said:


> None of the other Valar had their chief servants jumping over the fence to Morgoth.


What about Osse, servant of Ulmo?


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## baragund (May 30, 2006)

I believe that as Tolkien developed and refined his mythology over the years his view of the Valar trended toward their being more asexual beings. In the earlier versions, Manwe and Varda had “children” and the earlier descriptions of Tulkas and Nessa gave one the impression they had a healthy relationship, if you catch my drift. Also, in earlier accounts the War of Wrath was fought in large part by “the sons of the Valar”. These earlier accounts indicate that the Valar reproduced, and it would be reasonable to think that that would include all of the issues that go with sexual reproduction.

A lot of that is gone in the published Silmarillion. True, there is the seductive power of Melian to fill Thingol’s heart with “wonder and desire”, and then put him in a trance for, like, and Age. And then there is Morgoth who, when he saw through Luthien’s disguise, “…conceived in his thought an evil lust, and a design more dark than any that had yet come into his heart since he fled from Valinor.” But it seems that Tolkien wanted his gods (at least the good guys) to be above such icky things. He went out of his way to portray the Valar in non-sexual terms when he described how they would clothe themselves in physical bodies to reflect their personalities, not for the purpose of procreation.

Personally, I would have found the Valar more appealing as characters if they had more “human” qualities, including libidos. They were by no means infallibles beings so why not include all of the pleasures and perils of the flesh?


As an aside, don't forget all of the fire spirits who became the Balrogs joining up with Melkor. Arien, the Maia who hauls the Sun around the world every day seems to be the only fire spirit who didn't.


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## valaroma (Jun 1, 2006)

You are right about Osse, Thorondor. I missed that one. Luckily, his wife saved him.

Anyway, I think so far we had only considered the Valar from human perpective. In other words, we looked at the "Valar having human traits". Let us now examine the opposite, which is "Humans having Valarian traits".

There is nothing new under the sun. The Ainur had been around a long time before the other childrens of Illuvatar came forth. I hereby present another postulate, one that I hope won't make anyone sick.

*"Humans inherited ALL behaviour traits from the Ainur especially the Valar, whether good or evil."*

Now some humans cheat on their spouses. Morgoth however, had no spouse which means we must have inherited the infidelity trait from the other Valar. But the other Valar are not evil, therefore infidelity is not evil. Indirectly, this also implies that the Eldar must have practised infidelity.


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## Ithrynluin (Jun 1, 2006)

valaroma said:


> Now some humans cheat on their spouses. Morgoth however, had no spouse which means we must have inherited the infidelity trait from the other Valar. But the other Valar are not evil, therefore infidelity is not evil. Indirectly, this also implies that the Eldar must have practised infidelity.



The Valar had absolutely *no* part in 'creating' the Children of Iluvatar, who came into existence solely by Eru's power and design. Therefore, the rather wild postulation of attempting to transfer the traits of the Ainur onto the Children makes no sense at all.


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## Thorondor_ (Jun 1, 2006)

> Indirectly, this also implies that the Eldar must have practised infidelity.


I disagree;according to Laws and customs of the Eldar, Later Quenta Silmarillion, HoME X:


> They (the elves) are not easily deceived by their own kind; and their spirits being masters of their bodies, they are seldom swayed by the desires of the body only, but are by nature continent and steadfast.


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## baragund (Jun 1, 2006)

Valaroma, you lost me with your last post...

Can you elaborate on humans _inheriting_ their traits from the Ainur? Humans are not offspring or creations of the Ainur, but of Iluvatar as Ithy pointed out. Human traits are what was conferred to them by Iluvatar, not the Ainur.

Also, I think you made too big a leap with the notion that Morgoth did not practice infidelity due to his not having a spouse. Infidelity is a form of deception and Morgoth was a master of deception. 

Nevertheless, I can't help but chuckle at the idea of Manwe and Nessa getting busy behind Varda's back...


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## valaroma (Jun 2, 2006)

As to the inheritance issue, the logic is quite simple. If humans didn't learn their skills and behaviour from the Ainur, then who could have taught them?

Notice how the Valar were anxious to teach their skills to the new children? Notice also that it was their charter to make Arda ready for the children? This cannot be merely preparing the environment but must also include imparting knowledge. Unless we are saying that *humans and elves woke up having full knowledge on how to survive and conduct their lives*, which I very much doubt, then there MUST have been a teacher. And there is nobody around to do that except the Ainur.

Off course we can say that Eru himself taught his children. If this is true as in the case with the Valar, then there must have been direct Eru/Eldar and Eru/Human contact which I haven't come across. Very likely Eru will appoint a messiah to be his medium. I haven't come across any messiah either.


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## Ithrynluin (Jun 2, 2006)

The Valar never had any contact with humans. Since no one was around to guide the mortals upon their awakening, it is possible that Eru did impart some basic skills upon them from the very start. Also, mannish legend has it that Eru spoke directly to the first members of their race.


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## valaroma (Jun 3, 2006)

I accept that Eru may have impart some basic knowledge, though what particular knowledge we may never know. But it is certainly possible. What is also possible is that this knowledge may not be enough, therefore a teacher is necessary.


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## Ithrynluin (Jun 3, 2006)

valaroma said:


> I accept that Eru may have impart some basic knowledge, though what particular knowledge we may never know. But it is certainly possible. What is also possible is that this knowledge may not be enough, therefore a teacher is necessary.



There _were_ no 'assigned' teachers, unless it was in Eru's designs that the exiled Noldor serve as teachers of the 'good' men (as they indeed did). Morgoth could be seen as the teacher of the 'evil' men. And some humans might certainly have benefited from the close proximity of dwarves (but also vice versa).


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## Thorondor_ (Jun 3, 2006)

According to The legend of the awakening of the Quendi, HoME XI, the three initial pair of elves devised words by themselves:


> And the next thing they saw was their destined spouses lying asleep on the green sward beside them. Then they were so enamoured of their beauty that their desire for speech was immediately quickened and they began to 'think of words' to speak and sing in.


The same can be said of Men, according to the Atrabeth, though to a somewhat lesser degree, since, as Ithy pointed out, they were first talked to and taught by Eru:


Atrabeth Finrod ah Andreth said:


> We understood the Voice in our hearts, though we had no words yet. Then the desire for words awoke in us, and we began to make them. But we were few, and the world was wide and strange. Though we greatly desired to understand, learning was difficult, and the making of words was slow. In that time we called often and the Voice answered. But it seldom answered our questions, saying only: 'First seek to find the answer for yourselves. For ye will have joy in the finding, and so grow from childhood and become wise. Do not seek to leave childhood before your time.' But we were in haste, and we desired to order things to our will; and the shapes of many things that we wished to make awoke in our minds. Therefore we spoke less and less to the Voice.


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## valaroma (Jun 3, 2006)

Ok, I felt we have argued some possibilities and it's pretty much open ground as to where the later children acquired their knowledge. Lets go back to the frisky thing.

I shall begin with Eru himself. Or is it herself? If we argue that every knowledge originated from him/her, then where did Eru learn about sexuality or more specifically infidelity? Is he/she an alien from another galaxy? He certainly never claimed to have created the Universe, so where did he dreamed up the Ainur, Arda and everything else? 


The fact though was, he did and everything that happens after the creation of the Ainur GIVE MEANING to the totality of existence in Arda. Lets look at some of the key events :-


The Valar and Maiar entered Arda.
Morgoth rebelled.
Awakening of the other children.
Conflicts between good and evil.
Those events above formed the gist of creation and events in Arda which means they are the essence of the music of Eru. Notice Eru himself/herself is not a player. So this means, his/her pool of epistemology (we still don't know where he got it from) does NOT become knowledge and experience until it is carried out by his children. Did Eru know about sexuality? No doubt he did. Did he carried it out? No, his children did. Did Eru know about infidelity? I guess the question now is pretty much which ones of his children carried that out. 


Unless Eru erected some sort of barrier within Arda's space-time continuum that prevents the Ainur and the other children from having multiple sex partners, I don't see why not. Lets look at the following;

_With Manwë dwells Varda, Lady of the Stars, who knows all the regions of Ëa. Too great is her beauty to be declared in the words of Men or of Elves; for the light of Ilúvatar still lives in her face. In light is her power and joy. Out of the deeps of Ëa she came to the aid of Manwë; for Melkor she knew from before the making of the Music and rejected him, and he hated her, and feared her more than all others whom Eru made. --The Silmarillion, "Valaquenta"_


Sounds to me like Morgoth was going after his sister-in-law.


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## StoneHeart (Sep 2, 2007)

Ah. Sorry if I repeat anything someone has said, can't read it all.

Tolkien may have been a devout Catholic but just cause you can't do it doesn't mean you can't think about it. 

Also, his work has the undertones of Nordic and Celtic mytholgy and many other traditional things I am too dense to recognize. So I would say this:

1.Many people believe that love transends the physical therefore what could be considered a crime of the flesh might not be a crime at all. Simply onoe being reaching out to another.

2.Also I think that the intermingling of some Valar blood might have trivkled down the lines to give us people above and beyond the norm that you may not even realize were there. In Greek mythology almost every great hero could trace his lineage bavk to some god or another. It would be prudent forthought to "sew the seeds" for the salvation of Middle Earth.

3.Why does everyone associate purity with chastity and boringness? Is it impossible to have a god or goddess like figure that is able to indulge themselves without staining their purity? It seems that we cannot hold the two ideas together. We must always pick one or the other. This I thinkis a purely Christian bit of dogma I will never understand.

4.Magic and sex are like peanut butter and jelly. You can't have one without the other.

And thats my 4 cents. Thank you.


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## Starflower (Sep 3, 2007)

hmm... long time since we had such a stimulating debate (no pun intended )

I reckon that the Valar were not participating in extramarital affairs as such, as that would imply there being a marriage (or equivalent) in the first place. The references we have seem to suggest that the term 'spouse' is not a synonym for 'wife' or 'husband' when it comes to Valar. Though to be fair, I don't think the Valar were very concerned about sex anyway. Though Morgoth may have been an exception, his desire for Varda definitely carries sexual connotations, in what other way would she have rejected him to make him so bitter?

The Maiar seem to be a different matter... think of Osse and Uinen, he is described as rash and violent, and that she would soothe and calm him - there is definitely a husband-wife relationship there. And the of course we have Melian... what would you call what she did to Thingol other than seduction? 

Also, look at Sauron and the Numenoreans, he is described as being pleasing to the eye and smoothtalking to the extent that those in his presence were completely mesmerised. 

So... Valar - not frisky, Maiar -very frisky indeed


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## Varokhâr (Sep 25, 2007)

StoneHeart said:


> 3.Why does everyone associate purity with chastity and boringness? Is it impossible to have a god or goddess like figure that is able to indulge themselves without staining their purity? It seems that we cannot hold the two ideas together. We must always pick one or the other. This I thinkis a purely Christian bit of dogma I will never understand.




Well-said


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## Turgon (Oct 10, 2007)

I've always seen marriage between the Valar as a 'marriage of true-minds' - to pinch a few words from Shakespeare. I'm not really sure how much sexuality plays a part in their lives. In earlier versions of Tolkien's work of course, the Valar do have children. Which might presuppose sexuality, but then somewhere along the way this idea disappears from his work. That's all by the by. Sexuality is not evil. What seems to be in discussion here though is infidelity. Unfaithfulness, which is a trait akin to Melkor and his servants and not the Valar and theirs. 

As for where men got there teachings from, I was always under the impression that they had received some wrongful teachings from Melkor, not just evil men, but all men. Doesn't Beor speak of a shadow behind his people which he will not speak of? Surely this is the shadow of the Enemy?

Tolkien doesn't strike me as a particularly prude man, though the only memory I have of Tolkien discussing sexuality is in a letter to one of his sons. I can't remember any of it off-hand, but I remember thinking it was a touching letter; not something written by a man denying sexuality. Even so I do find the idea of random infidelities amongst the Valar to be absurd. Valinor is not Olympus or Asgard, a different morality is at play here. Even in Classical Greece, some people had begun to look at the antics of the Gods and deny them.


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