# Children of Illuvatar



## Calimehtar (Jan 2, 2003)

I just wanted to make sure I was right in believing that the Children of Illuvatar are the entire race of Elves and Men. Is that right? Its just that the first time I read The Sil. I didnt comprehend ANY of it and I was thinking the Children were just a select few Elves. 

And Ents and Dwarves were just peoples created by Yavanna and Aule, was it Aule that created Dwarves? or was it Orome or someone else? I can't remember. Anyways, Dwaves and Ents were not Children of Illuvatar, they just "awoke" at the same time as the Children.

Am I right on all of this?


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## Sarah (Jan 2, 2003)

Yes, Aule created the dwarves


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## Gil-Galad (Jan 3, 2003)

The Ents are not people.....and the dwarves too.....the dwarves are dwarves!The Ents are spirits that go to dwell among the olvar and are called The Shepherds of Trees.


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## Finduilas (Jan 3, 2003)

Yes and the dwarves were actually 'born' before the Firstborn and therefore they are similar.There are two possibilities for that:
1.The appearance of the Children was in Aules imagination ,put there by Eru although it wasn't very clear.
2.After seeing the Dwarves Eru 'stole' parts of their appearance.
What do you think about it?


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## Gil-Galad (Jan 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Finduilas _
> *Yes and the dwarves were actually 'born' before the Firstborn and therefore they are similar.There are two possibilities for that:
> 1.The appearance of the Children was in Aules imagination ,put there by Eru although it wasn't very clear.
> 2.After seeing the Dwarves Eru 'stole' parts of their appearance.
> What do you think about it? *


1.They were created before elves,but they had to wait till elves came in ME.
2.Eru couldn't "stole" parts of dwarves' appearance cause his children had been in his thoughts long time before even Aule started thinking of creating the dwarves.


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## Finduilas (Jan 3, 2003)

> 1.They were created before elves,but they had to wait till elves came in ME.



It doesn't matter,they were the actual Firstborn because they knew life first.



> 2.Eru couldn't "stole" parts of dwarves' appearance cause his children had been in his thoughts long time before even Aule started thinking of creating the dwarves.



Yes,he had them in his thoughts and probably had even created them thinking but if he sees something perfect for an epoch like that shouldn't it would be better if he tries to perfect his creation and give them more strenght.


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## Gil-Galad (Jan 3, 2003)

I doubt they knew life before elves.They had to wait till the elves' coming to start their life.I do not think they were able to live before that time,no matter they were created first.Eru saw what Aule had done and ordered that the dwarves had to wait.......
How Eru can make a copy of something when everything is in his thoughts?It doesn't make sense.......


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## Gothmog (Jan 4, 2003)

The Dwarves did 'Know Life' before the awakening of the Elves. When Aule offered his creation to Iluvatar they were nothing more than automations, moving only when Aule thought to move them. However, Iluvatar Adopted them on the instant and gave them life so that when Aule went to smash them with his hammer they begged him not to.

Iluvatar would not allow the Dwarves to appear before the Elves and so the then Living Dwarves were made to "Sleep" until the awaking of the "Firstborn" of Iluvatar's design, Elves.


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## Confusticated (Jan 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Gothmog _
> *The Dwarves did 'Know Life' before the awakening of the Elves. When Aule offered his creation to Iluvatar they were nothing more than automations, moving only when Aule thought to move them. However, Iluvatar Adopted them on the instant and gave them life so that when Aule went to smash them with his hammer they begged him not to.
> *


The first thing they knew as beings independant of Aule was "Oh-no! Here comes a hammer! I hope it doesn't take our lives!"
They knew life before the awakening of the firstborn.


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## Elbereth (Jan 6, 2003)

Correct me if I am wrong...which I may be....but, I always thought that 'The Children of Illuvatar' were the Valar...and the Elves were called First born...and Men, the 'Second Born'.


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## Confusticated (Jan 6, 2003)

These are the first mentions of the Children of Iluvatar in The Silmarillion:


> Never since have the Ainur made any music like to this music, though it has been said that a greater still shall be made before Ilúvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Ilúvatar after the end of days.





> And so it was that as this vision of the World was played before them, the Ainur saw that it contained things which they had not thought. And they saw with amazement the coming of the Children of Ilúvatar, and the habitation that was prepared for them; and they perceived that they themselves in the labour of their music had been busy with the preparation of this dwelling, and yet knew not that it had any purpose beyond its own beauty. For the Children of Ilúvatar were conceived by him alone; and they came with the third theme, and were not in the theme which Ilúvatar propounded at the beginning, and none of the Ainur had part in their making.


and of course this one:


> Now the Children of Ilúvatar are Elves and Men, the Firstborn and the Followers, And amid all the splendours of the World, its vast halls and spaces, and its wheeling fires, Ilúvatar chose a place for their habitation...


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