# Thraunduil & Legolas - Dark Elves, Sindar, Silvan Elves, Telerin or Calaquendi ?



## ltnjmy (Jan 27, 2009)

Which Elvish grouping did Legolas and his father come from ?

From what I recall in Fellowship of the Ring - Celeborn acknowledged Legolas as kin - so were they Telerin Elves imbued with Sindarian culture from Beleriand ?

Were they descended from Telerin/Nandorian Elves that never entered Beleriand ?


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## Ithrynluin (Jan 27, 2009)

They are Sindarin elves. 

Source: Unfinished Tales Index


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## Úlairi (Jan 27, 2009)

Ithrynluin said:


> They are Sindarin elves.
> 
> Source: Unfinished Tales Index


 
Yes, but their people were actually Silvan Elves. Thranduil and Legolas were Sindarin in *descent* but their "_kindred_" were Silvan Elves.

Anyone think the Green-Elves (the _Laiquendi_) of Ossiriand mentioned in _The Silmarillion_ were the ancestors of, or perhaps even were, the Elves of Northern Mirkwood?

*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


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## ltnjmy (Jan 27, 2009)

Úlairi said:


> Anyone think the Green-Elves (the _Laiquendi_) of Ossiriand mentioned in _The Silmarillion_ were the ancestors of, or perhaps even were, the Elves of Northern Mirkwood?


 
Dear Ulairi,
You make a very good point. The Laiquendi of Ossiriand - the only part of Beleriand to survive after the War of Wrath - probably made up part of the Elvish population in Gil-Galad's kingdom in Lindon, Elrond's enclave at Imladris & the Elves in Mirkwood.
sincerely, ltnjmy


Also, the Silvan Elves - subjects of Thraundil & Legolas - were probably from the Telerin/Nandorian elves mentioned in The Simarillion. Also, I think that Professor Tolkien was a rare genius - to make up entire populations - - including subdivisions - of Elvish communities as well as an Elvish language (Quendi) and different varieties


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## RangerStryder (Jan 29, 2009)

ltnjmy said:


> Which Elvish grouping did Legolas and his father come from ?
> 
> From what I recall in Fellowship of the Ring - Celeborn acknowledged Legolas as kin - so were they Telerin Elves imbued with Sindarian culture from Beleriand ?
> 
> Were they descended from Telerin/Nandorian Elves that never entered Beleriand ?


There are 3 types of Eldar - Vanyar, Teleri, Noldor.

Teleri Elves are numerous among the 3, and majority among the Teleri was left behind in Middle Earth and most famous among them are the Sindar Elves who are under King Thingol, and these are also known as the Grey Elves.

The Teleri Elves are also group in sequence:
1. Those that went to Aman.
2. Those that remained in Beleriand aka Sindar aka Grey Elves.
3. Those that left the march of the Teleri east of the Misty Mountains aka Nandor.
3.1 Of whom some afterwards entered Beleriand aka Laiquendi aka Green Elves of Ossiriand.


> From Tolkien Gateway:
> A thousand years before the first rising of the Sun and the Moon the Green Elves entered Beleriand under Denethor. Thingol welcomed them and gave them the lands of Ossiriand, which they named Lindon.


 
(except for no.1, all these Elves are called "those who were not of Aman aka Umanyar".)


So you see, Celeborn is a Sindarin Elf of King Thingol and Thranduil is from Lindon but there both of the Teleri kind.

Source: The Silmarillion
Qoute from Thain's Book:


> [SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1]Legolas was a Silvan Elf of Sindarin descent. His father Thranduil was one of the Sindar who had come from Lindon sometime before the year 1000 of the Second Age. The Elves of Mirkwood were mainly Silvan, or Wood-Elves, and Legolas identified himself as one of the Silvan folk. It is not known who Legolas's mother was, and some have speculated that she may have been a Silvan Elf, but there is no textual basis for this theory.[/SIZE]
> [/SIZE]


 
And now....any Elves who didnt march with the 3 groups (Vanyar, Noldor or Teleri) are called Avari: the unwilling, they just stay there in the east.

These Avari/East Elves are also known as (aka) Silvan Elves or Wood Elves who are numerous but kinda ignorant/backwards on things thus they needed someone of their kind who have the knowledge, skills and leadership for which their kin of Sindarin/Teleri or Noldor type of Elves can provide. And gained the right to be their rightful ruler and have their own territories east of the Blue mountains. 

That is why Teleri/Sindar (Cirdan, Celegorn, Thranduil) and Noldor (Elrond<Noldor descent>, Galadriel) Elves ruled the following Elvish territories for which majority are Silvan/Wood Elves in Grey Havens, Rivendell, Mirkwood, and Lothlorien.


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## ltnjmy (Jan 30, 2009)

RangerStryder said:


> So you see, Celeborn is a Sindarin Elf of King Thingol and Thranduil is from Lindon but there both of the Teleri kind.
> 
> Source: The Silmarillion
> Qoute from Thain's Book:
> ...


 
Thanks so much for this posting - it is now much more clearer to me !


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## Bucky (Feb 6, 2009)

Úlairi said:


> [/B] but their "_kindred_" were Silvan Elves.
> 
> Anyone think the Green-Elves (the _Laiquendi_) of Ossiriand mentioned in _The Silmarillion_ were the ancestors of, or perhaps even were, the Elves of Northern Mirkwood?



*No.

Doesn't it make more sense that the Avari would've just spread to Mirkwood all by themselves over the long Ages while the Eldar were in Aman?*


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## Elthir (Mar 6, 2009)

> *Úlairi* wrote: Anyone think the Green-Elves (the _Laiquendi_) of Ossiriand mentioned in _The Silmarillion_ were the ancestors of, or perhaps even were, the Elves of Northern Mirkwood?
> 
> 
> *Bucky* responded: No.
> ...


 
In a late text it is noted that the Silvan Elves or _Tawarwaith_ were in origin Teleri, descended from those who were daunted by the Misty Mountains and lingered in the Anduin Vale. They were thus _akin_ to the Green Elves of Ossiriand (who eventually migrated to Beleriand), but had themselves hid '... in woodland fastnesses beyond the Misty Mountains, and became a small and scattered people, hardly to be distinguished from Avari...' (from the _History of Galadriel and Celeborn_ Appendix A, _The Silvan Elves And Their Speech_, Unfinished Tales).

The Avarin question is a bit more complicated. In the essay _Quendi And Eldar_ (1959-60) there is description related to Avarin migrations not only to the Anduin Vale (and thus mixing with the Telerin Tawarwaith), but to Beleriand itself -- it was noted, for example, that somewhat later the Sindar became aware of Avari, who had crept in small and secret groups into Beleriand from the South. However in a later text, _Of Dwarves And Men_, Tolkien wrote: 'Those who had never made the journey to the West Shores were called 'the Refusers' (Avari). It is doubtful if any of the Avari ever reached Beleriand or were actually known to the Numenoreans.' This much would still seem to allow for an Avarin element in the Anduin Vale however, though again _The Silvan Elves and their Speech_ is also later than Q&E and doesn't seem to specifically (at least) note that some Avari had merged with them. 

Considering Tolkien-published text and 'late unpublished' text, I first note Robert Foster's entries (_The Complete Guide to Middle-Earth_):



> 'East-Elves The Silvan Elves
> 
> Silvan Elves 'Those tribes of Elves who were not of the Eldar, than whom (...) The Silvan Elves are probably to be identified with the Avari (...) They may also have included the surviving Nandor who did not enter Beleriand.'


 
So Foster draws the not unnatural Avarin conclusion (noting 'probably' too), and given that he uses the 1977 Silmarillion as a source, he adds the bit about the Nandor. His entry is based on description Tolkien himself published (cited below), plus a bit that he did not publish himself, in Silmarillion. Draft examples of Appendix F aside, looking at what Tolkien decided to publish:






> 'The Elves far back in the Elder Days became divided into two main branches: the West-elves (the Eldar) and the East-elves. Of the latter kind were most of the elven-folk of Mirkwood and Lorien; but their languages do not appear in this history, of which all of the Elvish names and words are of Eldarin form.*


​


> *In Lorien at this period Sindarin was spoken, though with an 'accent', since most of its folk were of Silvan origin (...) But Lorien, Caras Galadhon, Amroth, Nimrodel are probably of Silvan origin, adapted to Sindarin.'


 
It seems here that the East-elves are 'not Eldar' nor their languages Eldarin. Moreover, according to The Lord of the Rings, _Eldar_ refers to the three kindreds who sought for the Undying Realm and came there are the beginning of days, _save the Sindar only_ (Appendix F). So again the East-elves are not considered Eldar, and 'West-elves' includes West Over Sea, and apparently the far West of Old Middle-earth (Beleriand. The Sindar migrated very much West if not Over Sea). Incidentally I note CJRT's latest entry for Eldar as published in _The Children of Hurin_: Eldar The Elves of the Great Journey out of the East to Beleriand.

And we also know from Tolkien-published text (as Legolas relates for example) that the Silvan Elves of Lorien passed Over Sea at times. Interestingly, in Appendix F JRRT did not specifically follow 'East-elves' with _Avari_, despite that he followed West-elves with _Eldar_.

If JRRT was going to stick by what he published in _The Lord of the Rings_ (and did not revise in the 1960s when the chance came), can his Telerin _Tawarwaith_ idea fit in? I think so.


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## ltnjmy (Mar 6, 2009)

Dear Galin,

Thanks for such an awesome reply - it rocked !!!

yours very sincerely, ltnjmy


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## Alcuin (Mar 6, 2009)

As the son of Oropher, Thranduil was nobleman of the Sindar: his halls in Greenwood, later Mirkwood, were deliberately intended to recall the greater halls of Menegroth, the fortress palace of Thingol lord of Doriath. Legolas the son of Thranduil was therefore a Sindarin prince, and was likely indeed some blood kinsman of Celeborn, who hailed him as such. (Thranduil and Oropher had moved far from Lórien to be away from Galadriel, if memory serves me well enough; there might have been tensions there; otherwise, why would the Silvan Elves of northern Mirkwood not interact more with their kinsfolk in Lórien? They were explicitly stated to be related to one another.) 

Which brings me to this: Thranduil was Sindarin, that we know: for he and his father came out of Doriath at the end of the First Age. As noblemen, they were accepted as rulers over the Silvan Elves, who were mostly kindred to the Teleri-Sindar (third clan). But in Lórien, Nimrodel, lover of Amroth, was not Sindarin: she seems to have been Silvan. 

Was Legolas’s mother Sindarin or Silvan? He seems more Silvan than Sindarin; but perhaps that is from centuries (possibly millennia) of living with Silvan Elves. Somehow, though, it always seemed to me that he was, well, more _rustic_ than the Elves of Lórien.


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## Bucky (Mar 8, 2009)

In a late text it is noted that the Silvan Elves or Tawarwaith were in origin Teleri, descended from those who were daunted by the Misty Mountains and lingered in the Anduin Vale. They were thus akin to the Green Elves of Ossiriand (who eventually migrated to Beleriand), but had themselves hid '... in woodland fastnesses beyond the Misty Mountains, and became a small and scattered people, hardly to be distinguished from Avari...' (from the History of Galadriel and Celeborn Appendix A, The Silvan Elves And Their Speech, Unfinished Tales).

*As I'm sure you know, Galin, The History of Galadriel & Celeborn is one big bunch of contadicting unfiunished essays that can hardly be taken as canon......


As far as taking anything published in The Silmarillion as canon either, a new book coming out this month called 'Arda Reconstructed' should help clear up exactly what Christopher Tolkien did & didn't exactly do with his father's rather disorganized papers on the First Age.


*


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## Elthir (Mar 8, 2009)

Bucky said:


> As I'm sure you know, Galin, The History of Galadriel & Celeborn is one big bunch of contadicting unfiunished essays that can hardly be taken as canon......


 
But if the Silvan Elves being Telerin _Tawarwaith_ (the late idea from _Unfinished Tales_) does not conflict with _The Lord of the Rings_, why not consider it? It fits nice enough with the detail that the Silvan Elves of Lorien sailed Over Sea. 

We know Tolkien himself did not _publish_ that the Silvans were Telerin in origin, but neither did he publish that they were Avari, despite that some have drawn this conclusion.


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## Bucky (Mar 9, 2009)

Agreed....

Good point.


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## Alcuin (Mar 9, 2009)

If you work through the Clans in “Quendi and Eldar” from _The War of the Jewels_, you discover that none of the Avari (or Úmanyar) were Minyar (Vanyar, all of whom went to Aman), but half of them were Tatyar (Noldor), who constituted fully half the original Avari. (See “C. The Clan Names”, pp 380-382) The Nelyar (Lindir or Teleri) split into three groups: the Nandor (about 40% of the clan), the Sindar (about 30%), and the Amanyar Teleri (the remaining 30%). 

The Silvan Elves might be understood not as “merely” lesser Sindar, but as a mixture of Lindir _and_ Tatyar. In fact, the Tatyar who stayed behind


> acknowledged their kin with the [noparse][Noldorin][/noparse] Exiles, though there is no record of their using the name _Ñoldo_ [noparse][the original clan-name][/noparse] in any recognizable Avarin form. They were actually unfriendly to the Ñoldor, and jealous of the more exalted kin, whom they accused of arrogance.


It is worth considering whether there might have been a clan difference between the Silvan Elves of Lórien and those of northern Mirkwood, who seem to have had a stronger affinity with their Dwarven neighbors, who hewed Thranduil’s halls in an echo of ancient Menegroth, and _actively traded _with the Men of Dale, Lake-town, Rhovanion and Rhûn, something that seems to have been unheard of in Lórien. Maybe these were vastly different policies between Oropher and Thranduil compared to Galadriel and Celeborn: but it smacks of a real cultural difference.


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## ltnjmy (Mar 9, 2009)

Thank you all for such fascinating and informative comments - I really, really need to buy the H.O.M.E.....

For before reading all of these great postings - I was beginning to think that maybe Thraunduil's people were Avari...


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## Elthir (Mar 9, 2009)

Alcuin said:


> If you work through the Clans in “Quendi and Eldar” (...) The Silvan Elves might be understood not as “merely” lesser Sindar, but as a mixture of Lindir _and_ Tatyar.


 
Hmmm, but is not the implication (at least) from Q&E: Lindar and Nelyarin Avari rather? 

And this raises the question of whether or not the later text (UT being later than Q&E) on the Telerin _Tawarwaith_ is simply a more general and briefer description than that of Q&E, and JRRT maybe intended that there be Avari among them, despite not being noted.



> In fact, the Tatyar who stayed behind: acknowledged their kin with the [Noldorin] Exiles, though there is no record of their using the name _Ñoldo_ [the original clan-name] in any recognizable Avarin form. They were actually unfriendly to the Ñoldor, and jealous of the more exalted kin, whom they accused of arrogance.


 

OK, but I note this describes the Tatyarin Avari who were met in Beleriand (again noting what is said of Avari in Beleriand in _Of Dwarves And Men_, but going by Q&E anyway). And later in the same section it is said that the Sindar, Nandor and the Lindarin Avari often became merged in Eriador and the Vale of Anduin (possibly the _Penni_ were among these Avari if we go by author's note 9 to _Quendi And Eldar)._ 

So,_ if_ we have a mixture of Lindar and Avarin folk in the Anduin Vale, it would appear to be originally 'Telerin' Elves who abandoned the March, and Nelyarin Avari from the same third clan (who did not take up the Great March of course).

Some Tatyarin Avari might have migrated further West, again, going by Q&E anyway.


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## Illuin (Mar 9, 2009)

OK, I’m getting confused . Going back to basics, the _*"Nelyar" *_Quendi (the _Thirds_) descended from _Enel and Enelyë_. I thought those of the Nelyar who accepted the summons became known as the _Teleri_. Those of the _Nelyar_ who refused became known as _Avari_ (along with the _*Tatyar* "the Seconds"_ who refused). Then there were those _Nelyar_ who _*changed their minds*_ such as the *Nandor* (also known as the _*Laiquendi *and the *Tawarwaith*),_ and the *Sindar *(also known as the _*Iathrim, Falathrim, *_and_* Mithrim*_). But all of _"the Thirds"_ _(Teleri, Nandor, Sindar, Avari - and their respective clans)_ descended from the _"Nelyar";_ whether they be _Avari_ or not. 

This is an accurate summary of the *foundation*; correct?


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## Elthir (Mar 10, 2009)

That's basically it *Illuin*, as I see things anyway. Here's another look at some of the terms, adding _Lindar,_ though it repeats some of what you just posted (this is based primarily on _Quendi And Eldar_ from _War of the Jewels_).

__________

Minyar 'Firsts' called the Vanyar 'The Fair' (PQ _*wanjâ_ according to _Quendi and Eldar_) which referred to the hair of this clan. A name probably given to the first clan by the Noldor. None became Avari. According to the _Shibboleth of Feanor_ they called themselves the Ingwer 'Chieftains' (or Ingwi according to an entry in _Parma Eldalamberon_ 17).

__________

Tatyar 'Seconds' called the Noldor 'The Wise' (PQ _ñgolodô_). The name _'may have been made before the March'_ (probably older than Vanyar), given to the Second Clan by the others -- accepted and used by the Eldarin members of this clan throughout later history as their regular and proper name. This clan was evenly divided with respect to Avari. Tatyarin Avari generally refers to Avari from this Second Clan. Etyañgoldi 'Exiled Noldor'.

__________

Nelyar 'Thirds' called the Lindar (PQ _lindâ, glindâ_), this name referred to the love of the Nelyar for song, for vocal music with or without the use of words, though they also loved water, the motions of which were by the Lindar associated with vocal (Elvish) sound. This was the oldest of the PQ names, which goes back to days before the separation (it is said that: _'The other two probably arose in the same period, if somewhat later...'_ ). Those of this clan that joined the March were called Teleri 'those at the end of the line, the hindmost', a nickname arising during the March. Nelyarin Avari (or Lindarin Avari) generally refers to the Avari of the third clan.

Nandor 'Those who go back' a name probably given at the time when certain groups of the Teleri gave up the March. None of the Nandor appear to have actually returned. Many remained and settled in lands that they had reached, especially beside Anduin, some turned aside and wandered southwards, but eventually groups of the Nandor spread into Eriador. Some finally entered Beleriand, and this people still called themselves _Lindi_ (the form it had taken by this time), and the country in which some settled was called _Lindon._ The Sindar later called the inhabitants of Ossiriand Laegil, Laegrim 'Green Elves', which term the Noldor translated Laiquendi _'but it was not much used.'_

In _Unfinished Tales,_ note 5 to _The History of Galadriel And Celeborn_, it is noted in part concerning Lórien: '... of a yet older name _Lindórinand_ 'Vale of the Land of Singers' Since the Elves of this land were in origin Teleri, there is no doubt present the name by which the Teleri called themselves, Lindar, the Singers.'

Tawarwaith basically means 'Forest-folk'


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