# Avari



## Tar-Minyatur (Dec 17, 2002)

What happens to the Avari? Were they destined to be on ME for eternity, or can they go to Valinor ?


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## Beruthiel (Dec 18, 2002)

*Good question*

I would think that they too can sail West. After all, Legolas, a Sindarin elf, did so. 
Valinor must have gotten very crowded before the Fourth Age was well underway....


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## morello13 (Dec 19, 2002)

im not sure anout the avari, but Legolas was not Avari, he was sindarin which means he is a teleri whose anscestors settled in Bereliand then came to ME after the war of wrath


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## Gil-Galad (Dec 21, 2002)

All elves go to Valinor,or I just think so...I think they are destined to go there and having in mind ME is created for people I doubt elved will stay there.As I remember Sam takes the very last ship to Valinor so that makes me think all elves go there.But I should check whether it is so.


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## Tar-Minyatur (Dec 21, 2002)

Yes, but to the Avari Valinor would be only a rumor, wouldnt it? So how would they be able to learn about it and sail there? BTW, I didnt know Sam took the last ship to Valinor.


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## Gil-Galad (Dec 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by TLOTR _
> *Yes, but to the Avari Valinor would be only a rumor, wouldnt it? So how would they be able to learn about it and sail there? BTW, I didnt know Sam took the last ship to Valinor. *


As a ring bearer he had to go in Valinor.So some years later he took probably the last ship.


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## gate7ole (Dec 22, 2002)

Many of the Avari are mentioned to become “Lingerers”. That means their body faints (since they stayed in ME long years) and they become almost invisible spirits. They never visit Valinor since they don’t know of it until they die and Mandos calls them.


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## Tar-Minyatur (Dec 22, 2002)

Do they eventually die if they stay if Middle Earth too long, or do they just wander around as nearly invisible spirits forever? Also, I'm just curious, but where did you read about the "Lingerers"?


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## gate7ole (Dec 23, 2002)

No, they don't die. It is not some kind of "illness". They suffer this diminishment in body because of the Usurpers Men. Only Valinor can stop this change. If they stay in ME, they simply transform into invisible spirits.
More about the Lingerers can be found in HOME X: Morgoth's 
Ring.


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## Rúmil (Dec 23, 2002)

Two little details:

Green-Elves are not Avari. They answered the summons of the Valar, they just din't make it to Valinor. In all of Tolkien's books, no Avar is ever mentionned by name.

And it was not so much because of men that because of Melkor's Marring of Arda that the Lingerers 'fade', I believe. Valinor 'stops the change' because it wasn't marred by Melkor: this is, Melkor didn't infuse his own substance into it.


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## gate7ole (Dec 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rúmil _
> *And it was not so much because of men that because of Melkor's Marring of Arda that the Lingerers 'fade', I believe. Valinor 'stops the change' because it wasn't marred by Melkor: this is, Melkor didn't infuse his own substance into it. *


You're right that the original responsible for the fading of the elves is Melkor and Arda Marred. But in many places Tolkien relates their fading with the dominion of Men. I see these two seemingly irrelevant reasons as one: the greatest evil deed of Melkor, the division of the two races. The one cannot live with the other. This is very sad, especially imagining what they could manage together.


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## Gil-Galad (Dec 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by gate7ole _
> *You're right that the original responsible for the fading of the elves is Melkor and Arda Marred. But in many places Tolkien relates their fading with the dominion of Men. I see these two seemingly irrelevant reasons as one: the greatest evil deed of Melkor, the division of the two races. The one cannot live with the other. This is very sad, especially imagining what they could manage together. *


I too think the reason for their fading is people.ME is created for men,and elves are doomed to leave it.I think that is so because men and elves couldn't live together in ME.Or probably it was something more special and Eru didn't mention it to anyone.


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## Rúmil (Dec 23, 2002)

> You're right that the original responsible for the fading of the elves is Melkor and Arda Marred. But in many places Tolkien relates their fading with the dominion of Men. I see these two seemingly irrelevant reasons as one: the greatest evil deed of Melkor, the division of the two races. The one cannot live with the other. This is very sad, especially imagining what they could manage together.


 Yes, I agree with that.


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