# Has melkor let go of evil?



## Aragorn II Elessar (Jul 13, 2021)

A youtuber I watched said that he regretted that Melkor did evil to living things. Because he was disappointed that he couldn't change them no matter what he did. Is that true? Did Melkor realize his mistakes and let go of the evil?


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## Alcuin (Jul 14, 2021)

No.


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## AaronSecret (Jul 14, 2021)

I think, as a matter of fact, Morgoth just likes being evil.
So when he finds out it's not that much about divine frustration,
he realises he needs no excuse to keep on doing bad things.
He's just passionate about evil and that's the scarier and deeper root of his intent.
When it turns into a hobby, even divine realisations can't help you give up what you like.


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## grendel (Jul 14, 2021)

I suspect if we consulted the Magic 8-Ball, the response would be "All signs point to NO"


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## Miguel (Jul 15, 2021)

Wasn't Tolkien unsatisfied with the Dagorath?. Who knows, maybe Melko joins the 2nd music without disruption.


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## AaronSecret (Jul 15, 2021)

Miguel said:


> Wasn't Tolkien unsatisfied with the Dagorath?. Who knows, maybe Melko joins the 2nd music without disruption.


Several of the poems I've written describe such a development of things.  Exactly him leading the second music of creation without disruption!
Can you please explain some more about the Dagorath? I don't get the reference and I am deeply intrigued.


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## Radaghast (Jul 15, 2021)

It was Tolkien's idea of Armageddon for his legendarium, an idea he abandoned: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Dagor_Dagorath


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## Elthir (Jul 15, 2021)

To split a hair, I think we must be careful not to equate Christopher Tolkien saying that the Second Prophecy of Mandos had definitively disappeared <> with Tolkien abandoning the Dagor Dagorath.

Tolkien Gateway (at least currently) marks the distinction: "According to Christopher Tolkien, the Dagor Dagorath *as* a Prophecy of Mandos was abandoned by Tolkien." _As a prophecy of Mandos._ To my mind, that's not the same as abandoning the Dagor Dagorath, something which Christopher Tolkien did not say.

So was it abandoned? A note following the Athrabeth has Tolkien re-characterizing the Dagor Dagorath as a Mannish Myth -- and further, I'd say there's at least an element of doubt here regarding what the details were going to be, considering, for examples:

*A)* The wording of the Prophecy of Andreth (a later text) regarding Túrin.

*B)* The possible meaning behind "and Beren Camlost" -- a marginal note at one point added "near" the QS description of the Dagor Dagorath.

And where there's some doubt, I guess some might wonder about the whole idea (not to mention that JRRT kept niggling with it, although that in itself isn't that notable), but for myself, I'd say a "Dagor Dagorath scenario" wasn't _necessarily _abandoned.

Wow. What a commitment by me


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## Alcuin (Jul 16, 2021)

Elthir said:


> To split a hair, I think we must be careful not to equate Christopher Tolkien saying that the Second Prophecy of Mandos had definitively disappeared <> with Tolkien abandoning the Dagor Dagorath.
> 
> Tolkien Gateway (at least currently) marks the distinction: "According to Christopher Tolkien, the Dagor Dagorath *as* a Prophecy of Mandos was abandoned by Tolkien." _As a prophecy of Mandos._ To my mind, that's not the same as abandoning the Dagor Dagorath, something which Christopher Tolkien did not say.
> 
> ...


Ok. Let me get this straight. 

We start out with:*A – *An Elvish tradition that Mandos made a prophecy about the end of Arda involving Morgoth sneaking back into Arda while the Valar are – _ahem_ – “napping”. (Y’know, you’d think if Mandos foresaw this, he’d be the one to try to stay awake, but hey… Just sayin’…) Then there’s a big battle, the Battle of Battles, the Dagor Dagorath, in which Túrin Turambar fights beside the Ainur and slays Morgoth.​
Then there’s *B – *A mixed Mannish and Elvish tradition that Mandos made a prophecy that Morgoth sneaks back into Arda while the Valar are – I say again, “napping” – and there’s a big battle. But maybe that’s nixed.​
Finally there’s *C – *A Mannish tradition that _Andreth_ made a prophecy about someone who hadn’t yet been born whose name she didn’t know involving Morgoth sneaking back into Arda while the Valar are napping, and this person, whose name turns out to be Túrin, kills Ancalagon the Black who’s already dead.​
Got it! 

_(And Celeborn is really a Teleri prince from Eldamar whose real name is Teleporno, and he and Galadriel eloped to Middle-earth even before Morgoth killed Finwë and ravished the Silmarils. Check.)_


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## Aragorn II Elessar (Jul 16, 2021)

Miguel said:


> Wasn't Tolkien unsatisfied with the Dagorath?. Who knows, maybe Melko joins the 2nd music without disruption.


Someone on quora site wrote that melkor and sauron participated in the second music of ainur. and eru forgave melkor. melkor did not have a direct negative effect on the second music.


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## Elthir (Jul 16, 2021)

Alcuin said:


> Then there’s
> *B – *A mixed Mannish and Elvish tradition that Mandos made a prophecy that Morgoth sneaks back into Arda while the Valar are – I say again, “napping” – and there’s a big battle. But maybe that’s nixed.​



If you're referring to Tolkien's note following the Athrabeth, Tolkien merely says that the Dagor Dagorath section of QS is a Mannish Myth . . . not a prophecy.




Alcuin said:


> _(And Celeborn is really a Teleri prince from Eldamar whose real name is Teleporno, and he and Galadriel eloped to Middle-earth even before Morgoth killed Finwë and ravished the Silmarils. Check.)_



Now you're talking/possibly joking about Tolkien stepping on already published text. Very different from private ideas that can be changed without undermining the Subcreated World.

In my opinion, we can't know if Tolkien is truly going to revise already published work, until he does.
That's a different animal as far as revision goes.


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## Alcuin (Jul 16, 2021)

Elthir said:


> Now you're talking/possibly joking about Tolkien...


I am jesting with you: I’m teasing you throughout the post. 



Elthir said:


> In my opinion, we can't know if Tolkien is truly going to revise already published work, until he does.
> That's a different animal as far as revision goes.


Agreed.

My position is: *What works best?* What storyline best holds together the published and unpublished ideas, the “canon” and non-canon myth?


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## Elthir (Jul 18, 2021)

Alcuin said:


> My position is: *What works best?* What storyline best holds together the published and unpublished ideas, the “canon” and non-canon myth?



Okay, and in this light, when and how does Feanor's youngest son die? 

Warning: it's a trap . . . well, maybe 

Anyway, with all this focus on Túrin and battles I might add a notion from the Athrabeth about another aspect of the former Second Prophecy: *healing*.

In an expertly-coloured and randomly-bolded series of quotes:

"Asleep or awake, they say nothing clearly," answered Andreth. "How or when shall healing come? To what manner of being shall those who see that time be re-made? And what of us who before it go out into darkness unhealed? To such questions only those of the "Old Hope" (as they call themselves) have any guess of an answer."

Andreth then explains the following about the Old Hope: *"For it was not on the might of Men, or of any of the peoples of Arda, that the old hope was grounded."*

The Old Hope is rather the belief that the One will himself *"enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end."*

So who believes this? Internally, not all Men, as Andreth further explains (here in part): "If we put aside the Men who serve the Nameless, as do many in Middle-earth, still many Men perceive the world only as a war between light and Dark equipotent."

And such Men might indeed imagine a great war at the End of Time -- let's call it a Battle of Battles, or a Dagor Dagorath. And who, in the Real World,_ essentially_ believes in the Old Hope?

No Catholic professors come to mind at the moment, but I'll bet there's at least one 

🐾


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## Evafey (Jul 26, 2021)

Melkor is evil incarnate, I don't think it can be changed. Can it be merged or coexist without the kind of direct harm (both Melkor and Sauron) caused? Imo, maybe, but in a severely weakened state of being.

I don't know if the prophecy is real and in what way, meaning if Eru reboots everything then won't everything cease to exist and sth new will take its place?

The thing with Melkor is others followed him, and later Sauron, but others rejected them. Which imo shows there is more than strength of character involved in the -let's call it- process. Strength of character can be taught. Imo the reason some entities and beings can be corrupted is because within the primordial energy from within which all was made there was always this element of darkness, the unlight (and various entities and creatures actually like it). The existence of these polar opposites creates the flow of energy which made everything. Like the entirety of the physical plain of existence is a reflection of the spiritual aka the primordial. So, one would have to rewrite the latter to change the former and that to me seems like one massive reboot of the entire system.


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## 1stvermont (Jul 26, 2021)

Evafey said:


> Melkor is evil incarnate, I don't think it can be changed. Can it be merged or coexist without the kind of direct harm (both Melkor and Sauron) caused? Imo, maybe, but in a severely weakened state of being.
> 
> I don't know if the prophecy is real and in what way, meaning if Eru reboots everything then won't everything cease to exist and sth new will take its place?
> 
> The thing with Melkor is others followed him, and later Sauron, but others rejected them. Which imo shows there is more than strength of character involved in the -let's call it- process. Strength of character can be taught. Imo the reason some entities and beings can be corrupted is because within the primordial energy from within which all was made there was always this element of darkness, the unlight (and various entities and creatures actually like it). The existence of these polar opposites creates the flow of energy which made everything. Like the entirety of the physical plain of existence is a reflection of the spiritual aka the primordial. So, one would have to rewrite the latter to change the former and that to me seems like one massive reboot of the entire system.



It's a very interesting take but I must disagree. Morgoth was originally created "good" as were all of the Valar. He "fell" desiring to rule all to his own will. Thus he could hypothetically, I think, "repent" and turn. Sauron did so for a bit if I am not mistaken.


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## Evafey (Jul 26, 2021)

1stvermont said:


> It's a very interesting take but I must disagree. Morgoth was originally created "good" as were all of the Valar. He "fell" desiring to rule all to his own will. Thus he could hypothetically, I think, "repent" and turn. Sauron did so for a bit if I am not mistaken.


Both pretended to repent and in the process deceived others. Melkor deceived Manwe in Valinor and Sauron the Numenoreans like he did with the host of the Valar and elves.

Melkor was created, but good.... I don't think so. There is no clear answer in the books. A lot of people point as the turning moment for Melkor's eventual downfall when he introduced discord in Ainulindale. I disagree. I think his problems started before that because as is mentioned Melkor had a different characteristic than the other spirits/deities. One separating him from the rest and arguably a characteristic which seems to be present in all the other cases of fallen/corrupted characters: "he sought therein to increase the power and the glory of the part assigned to himself".

He was created powerful, gifted, unique, but not good. A lot of other entities existed outside the physical realm of Arda and the world and were not good, like whatever Ungoliant was.


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## Elthir (Jul 26, 2021)

Welcome *EvaFey* . . . totally off topic, but do you happen to know if I should "properly" write éntheos -- or entheos (no diacritic) when writing this word with Roman letters.

Also, simply ignoring this question will be fine


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## Evafey (Jul 26, 2021)

Elthir said:


> Welcome *EvaFey* . . . totally off topic, but do you happen to know if I should "properly" write éntheos -- or entheos (no diacritic) when writing this word with Roman letters.
> 
> Also, simply ignoring this question will be fine


Hi!
Do you mean the transliteration of greek ένθεος? I don't think it matters. If you worry about intonation, I don't think in latin characters it adds much but maybe some aesthetic value. If you spell it with the greek alphabet, then depending whether you choose ancient or modern the symbols change. Hope I got it right and helped you.


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## Elthir (Jul 26, 2021)

Yes, that's exactly it. Much thanks!

But excuse my thick head with this follow up . . . do I read you rightly that the Latin version (with diacritic) does not reflect intonation of some kind (if that make sense) . . . if so, it seems superfluous besides an aesthetic value, as you say . . . but that might explain why I see variants in my dictionaries, but never when written in the Greek Alphabet.

Again sorry if that's a dumb follow up.

And a mod will probably pounce on me for not using PM here . . . that's okay, but don't blame *Evafey*!

🐾


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## 1stvermont (Jul 26, 2021)

Evafey said:


> Both pretended to repent and in the process deceived others. Melkor deceived Manwe in Valinor and Sauron the Numenoreans like he did with the host of the Valar and elves.
> 
> Melkor was created, but good.... I don't think so. There is no clear answer in the books. A lot of people point as the turning moment for Melkor's eventual downfall when he introduced discord in Ainulindale. I disagree. I think his problems started before that because as is mentioned Melkor had a different characteristic than the other spirits/deities. One separating him from the rest and arguably a characteristic which seems to be present in all the other cases of fallen/corrupted characters: "he sought therein to increase the power and the glory of the part assigned to himself".
> 
> He was created powerful, gifted, unique, but not good. A lot of other entities existed outside the physical realm of Arda and the world and were not good, like whatever Ungoliant was.



If i am not mistaken Sauron, Tolkien said, truly did repent [i believe in the first age] but when it came to meeting the Valar, I think his pride got the better of him and he went and hid in ME. This is off of my memory which is not always 100% reliable.

I would say all beings had differences not just melkor. At the council of Elrond, Master Elrond says, "_nothing is evil in the beginning_, even Sauron was not so." Melkor fell "from splendor; he fell through arrogance to contempt for all things save himself...he _became_ a liar without shame. He began with the desire of light [creative action] but _when he could not possess it for himself alone, he descended t_hrough fire and wrath into great burning, down into darkness." The Silmarillion reads "_it came into the heart o_f Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Iluvatar." To me those passages seem to indicate a certain point that he changed in his heart and the shadow started/grew. 


Some see Ungoliant as a fallen maiar, but even if she is not, any form of being can fall, not just the Valar.


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## Evafey (Jul 26, 2021)

1stvermont said:


> If i am not mistaken Sauron, Tolkien said, truly did repent [i believe in the first age] but when it came to meeting the Valar, I think his pride got the better of him and he went and hid in ME. This is off of my memory which is not always 100% reliable.
> 
> I would say all beings had differences in the same with Melkor. At the council of Elrond, Master Elrond says, "_nothing is evil in the beginning_, even Sauron was not so." Melkor fell "from splendor; he fell through arrogance to contempt for all things save himself...he _became_ a liar without shame. He began with the desire of light [creative action] but _when he could not possess it for himself alone, he descended t_hrough fire and wrath into great burning, down into darkness." The Silmarillion reads "_it came into the heart o_f Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Iluvatar." To me those passages seem to indicate a certain point that he changed in his heart and the shadow started/grew.
> 
> ...


I don't remember this passage very well either and tbh if his shame (or whatever) after all he did was not enough, does it really matter? I mean does it feel genuine or more like "darn, I - the amazing Sauron- got caught"... Personally, will go for point B. My personal interpretation whatever that may mean.

I still don't read Melkor's evolution this way though tbh. I feel like this descent, you describe, was precipitated by his own thoughts. His contempt, lust for power, all these elements were there and drove him into becoming a full-fledged tyrant.



Elthir said:


> Yes, that's exactly it. Much thanks!
> 
> But excuse my thick head with this follow up . . . do I read you rightly that the Latin version (with diacritic) does not reflect intonation of some kind (if that make sense) . . . if so, it seems superfluous besides an aesthetic value, as you say . . . but that might explain why I see variants in my dictionaries, but never when written in the Greek Alphabet.
> 
> ...


Well, if you need more info and I can help then let me know... It's true that taking up space for sth irrelevant is not right. 😄


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## Olorgando (Jul 27, 2021)

1stvermont said:


> If i am not mistaken Sauron, Tolkien said, truly did repent [i believe in the first age] but when it came to meeting the Valar, I think his pride got the better of him and he went and hid in ME.





Evafey said:


> I don't remember this passage very well either and tbh if his shame (or whatever) after all he did was not enough, does it really matter?


This is mentioned at the beginning of the last section of the published Silmarillion, "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age":

"When Thangorodrim was broken and Morgoth overthrown, Sauron put on his fair hue again and did obeisance to Eönwë, the herald of Eönwë Manwë, and abjured all his evil deeds. And *some held* that this was not at first falsely done, but that Sauron in truth repented, *if only out of fear*, being dismayed by the fall of Morgoth and the great wrath of the Lords of the West. But it was not within the power of Eönwë to pardon those of his own order, and he commanded Sauron to return to Aman and there receive the judgement of Manwë. Then Sauron was ashamed, and he was unwilling to return in humiliation and to receive from the Valar a sentence, it might be, of long servitude in proof of his good faith; for under Morgoth his power had been great. Therefore when Eönwë departed he hid himself in Middle-earth; and he fell back into evil, for the bonds that Morgoth had laid upon him were very strong."

1. Repentance? Balderdash!
2. So Eönwë was "not given leave to pardon" Sauron. So §$%&ß@€# what?!?!? What prevented him, so to speak, from snapping on the handcuffs and dragging Sauron by the scruff of his neck back to Valinor?!? Seems the Valar still have not shed their pathetic naïvité about evil at this time yet. Slow learning curve. 👿


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## 1stvermont (Jul 27, 2021)

Evafey said:


> I don't remember this passage very well either and tbh if his shame (or whatever) after all he did was not enough, does it really matter? I mean does it feel genuine or more like "darn, I - the amazing Sauron- got caught"... Personally, will go for point B. My personal interpretation whatever that may mean.
> 
> I still don't read Melkor's evolution this way though tbh. I feel like this descent, you describe, was precipitated by his own thoughts. His contempt, lust for power, all these elements were there and drove him into becoming a full-fledged tyrant.
> 
> ...



I don't either, nor do i have time at the moment [working on a Tolkien project in fact] to find it. Especially since it is likely from his letters now that I think on it more. 

I agree with you on Melkor, but I was just saying that these thoughts that originated with him came from his own free will and came into being at some point in his mind.



Olorgando said:


> This is mentioned at the beginning of the last section of the published Silmarillion, "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age":
> 
> "When Thangorodrim was broken and Morgoth overthrown, Sauron put on his fair hue again and did obeisance to Eönwë, the herald of Eönwë, and abjured all his evil deeds. And *some held* that this was not at first falsely done, but that Sauron in truth repented, *if only out of fear*, being dismayed by the fall of Morgoth and the great wrath of the Lords of the West. But it was not within the power of Eönwë to pardon those of his own order, and he commanded Sauron to return to Aman and there receive the judgement of Manwë. Then Sauron was ashamed, and he was unwilling to return in humiliation and to receive from the Valar a sentence, it might be, of long servitude in proof of his good faith; for under Morgoth his power had been great. Therefore when Eönwë departed he hid himself in Middle-earth; and he fell back into evil, for the bonds that Morgoth had laid upon him were very strong."
> 
> ...




Good stuff thanks for looking it up. I will have to do some thinking on this. Is it to much to think that there is an outside chance he repented for a time? Before his pride got the better of him.


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## Elthir (Jul 27, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> "When Thangorodrim was broken and Morgoth overthrown, Sauron put on his fair hue again and did obeisance to Eönwë, the herald of Eönwë, and abjured all his evil deeds.



Rather _Manwë_ is the herald of Manwë. Pay attention willyä!

Ëlthir

at least I'm on topic this time


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## Olorgando (Jul 27, 2021)

Elthir said:


> Rather _Manwë_ is the herald of Manwë. Pay attention willyä!
> 
> Ëlthir
> 
> at least I'm on topic this time


Dang! Those "ë" thingies that JRRT peppers his writings with for no good reason whatsoever drive me daffy even when I get them placed right!

Good catch, Ëlthïr. 😜


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## Elthir (Jul 27, 2021)

I don't double dot 

Not usually. Although in any case, function aside, to some, it lööks gööd töö!


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## Olorgando (Jul 27, 2021)

Elthir said:


> I don't double dot
> 
> Not usually. Although in any case, function aside, to some, it lööks gööd töö!


Well, the ä / Ä, ö / Ö and ü / Ü are daily stuff in German. But that other stuff: ë / Ë, ï / Ï, ÿ / Ÿ ... what the?
And never mind all of that specialty stuff, consonants as well as vowels, needed by Mediterranean, Scandinavian, Slavic, Turkish and other imperfect adopters of the Roman script ... 🥴

Maybe Melkor is to blame for that, too? Which would clearly make the answer to the thread title "NO!!!".


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## Elthir (Jul 27, 2021)

Evafey said:


> Well, if you need more info and I can help then let me know... It's true that taking up space for sth irrelevant is not right. 😄



Thanks again!

I recently found (on the web) an Entheos Academy (it's not in Greece)


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## Miguel (Jul 29, 2021)

AaronSecret said:


> Several of the poems I've written describe such a development of things.  Exactly him leading the second music of creation without disruption!
> Can you please explain some more about the Dagorath? I don't get the reference and I am deeply intrigued.



Yup. That's where i read it  Though i think is better for the second music to happen without some cataclysm first.


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## Aukwrist (Sep 19, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> Well, the ä / Ä, ö / Ö and ü / Ü are daily stuff in German. But that other stuff: ë / Ë, ï / Ï, ÿ / Ÿ ... what the?
> And never mind all of that specialty stuff, consonants as well as vowels, needed by Mediterranean, Scandinavian, Slavic, Turkish and other imperfect adopters of the Roman script ... 🥴
> 
> Maybe Melkor is to blame for that, too? Which would clearly make the answer to the thread title "NO!!!".


The function of the ë is to show that the e is sounded, not silent. As in Manwë, Finwë, Eldalondë, Vingilotë, Ancalimë, Telemmaitë, Voronwë, Vairë, etc.



Olorgando said:


> This is mentioned at the beginning of the last section of the published Silmarillion, "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age":
> 
> "When Thangorodrim was broken and Morgoth overthrown, Sauron put on his fair hue again and did obeisance to Eönwë, the herald of Eönwë Manwë, and abjured all his evil deeds. And *some held* that this was not at first falsely done, but that Sauron in truth repented, *if only out of fear*, being dismayed by the fall of Morgoth and the great wrath of the Lords of the West. But it was not within the power of Eönwë to pardon those of his own order, and he commanded Sauron to return to Aman and there receive the judgement of Manwë. Then Sauron was ashamed, and he was unwilling to return in humiliation and to receive from the Valar a sentence, it might be, of long servitude in proof of his good faith; for under Morgoth his power had been great. Therefore when Eönwë departed he hid himself in Middle-earth; and he fell back into evil, for the bonds that Morgoth had laid upon him were very strong."
> 
> ...


Presumably a Maia, such as Eonwë, could not pardon the evildoings of Sauron, also a Maia, which were committed against the authority of the Valar, and were, in any case, not exactly trivial. My guess is that Eonwë had neither the political nor moral authority, nor any other kind of standing, to pardon Sauron. Still, one does wonder why Sauron could not have been fettered, put under guard, and sent back to Valinor.


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