# Was Smaug the last dragon?



## Snaga (Jan 13, 2002)

Was Smaug the last dragon? Gandalf says if the events in the Hobbit hadn't taken place Sauron would have used Smaug to terrible effect. So weren't there any more that Sauron could use?


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## Lord T (Jan 13, 2002)

If i remember correctly Gandalf said that the Rings could be destroyed by dragon fire but that there were none left.
I dont think anything else about the dragons was mentioned anywhere else so im assuming that he was the last.


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## Cian (Jan 13, 2002)

Smaug was not the last Dragon. cheer up


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## Uminya (Jan 13, 2002)

Perhaps there are only young 'dragons' (wyverns or drakes?) left in the Withered Heath. No Great Dragons or Wurms, though, I should say.


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## druid (Jan 14, 2002)

Hi all

Lord T

If I'm not greatly mistaken Ganadalf says that not even dragons fire could unmake the ring, only the fire from whence it came, ie mount doom

and i would nearly risk to say that smaug was the last of his kind, but my memory is fussy and my copy of the hobbit not at hand


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## Moonbeams (Jan 14, 2002)

Well, I never read that all dragons were extinct in ME, and that Smaug was the last.
Maybe the others were just too far off, too far for Sauron to call them to come and do some damage.


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## Cian (Jan 14, 2002)

> "_Dragons._ They had not stopped; since they were active in far later times, close to our own. Have I said anything to suggest the final ending of Dragons? If so it should be altered. The only passage that I can think of is Vol 1 p. 70: 'there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough'. But that implies, I think, that there are still dragons, if not of full primeval stature." JRRT


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## EverEve (Jan 14, 2002)

umm....i always thought that smaug wuz the last dragon...didnt gandalf say that? and in the beginning of the fellowship of the rings, sum hobbit said that the only dragon left wuz the green dragon (the pub)


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## Ståle (Jan 14, 2002)

Actually, at least the Seven could be destroyed by dragonfire(4 of them did), so it's probable that at least the Three and the Nine could be consumed by them.

Hence, unless Dragons were totally utterly evil, the good guys could have had a great weapon against the Nazgul.


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## Snaga (Jan 14, 2002)

As far as dragons and rings go I think that only the One is immune, since it alone was forged in Mt Doom.

Stale you say



> Hence, unless Dragons were totally utterly evil, the good guys could have had a great weapon against the Nazgul.



I think it is a safe bet that all dragons were evil. Didn't Melkor make them? Anyone with a copy of Sil to hand know?

Even if they were not totally evil, I can't see them wanting to go up against the Nazgul just because they wanted to do good. You'd need a ring of power to control them. Anyway I don't think the Nazgul actually carried their rings around with them - other debates elsewhere seem to conclude S kept them in Barad Dur.


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## druid (Jan 15, 2002)

Well you're right about Melkor creating the dragons and I do get the impression that they are evil being conceived of evil

just my op thought


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## Bucky (Jan 15, 2002)

>>>If i remember correctly Gandalf said that the Rings could be destroyed by dragon
fire but that there were none left. 

Gandalf actually says "There is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough".

So, he doesn't actually say there are no dragons left, but that those left are getting old....


BTW, what's a 'wyvern'?
Never heard that one before.


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## Greymantle (Jan 15, 2002)

In D&D, wyverns are dragon-like in shape, but smaller, barb-tailed and without that pesky fire breath. But I don't know how that translates to Tolkien.


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## Bucky (Jan 16, 2002)

I would expect that a few 'Cold Drakes' (wingless Dragon, correct) remain in The Withered Heath, but they're old & not going anywhere.....


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## Cian (Jan 16, 2002)

> 'there is not now any dragon left on earth
> in which the old fire is hot enough'. But that implies, I think, that there are still dragons, if not of full primeval stature." JRRT



Tolkien's comment on his own sentence is that it implies that though there are none left of comparable "full primeval" stature, there are still Dragons. 

Dragons had bred since the Old Days notably, and were said to have "multiplied" and became "strong again" at one point in the TA, afflicting the Dwarves (a great cold-drake slew Dáin I and Frór for example). Smaug was said to be the greatest of his contemporaries:

_"... Smaug the Golden, greatest of the dragons of his day ..." _ Appendix A RotK


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## Taranir (Jan 25, 2002)

*Great dragons*



> _Originally posted by Lord T _
> *If i remember correctly Gandalf said that the Rings could be destroyed by dragon fire but that there were none left.
> 
> Gandalf said that the One could only be destroyed in Mt. Doom Or by the Greatest of dragons, but there were none left. So, there were dragons but they were not that mighty...*


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## Beleg Strongbow (Feb 18, 2002)

*Re: Great dragons*



> _Originally posted by Taranir _
> *
> 
> 
> ...


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## Tar-Elenion (Feb 19, 2002)

In Letter 144 JRRT wrote:


> Dragons. They had not stopped; since they were active in far later times, close to our own. Have I said anything to suggest the final ending of dragons? If so it should be altered. The only passage I can think of is Vol. I p. 70 : 'there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough'. But that implies, I think, that there are still dragons, if not of full primeval stature.


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## ssgrif (Feb 21, 2002)

The Encyclopedia of Arda states that:



> Smaug was the last of the great fire-drakes, and said to be the greatest dragon of his time.



I've looked at the Bibliography section of the site, and most (if not all) of Tolkiens works are used, so can we say that Smaug was indeed the last?


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## Cian (Feb 21, 2002)

I think we can say Smaug was not the last Dragon. 

Tar-Elenion and I have posted a Tolkien quote (I posted part of it twice) that says as much In my opinion 

_'there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough'. But that implies, I think, that there are still dragons, if not of full primeval stature.'_ JRRT


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## ssgrif (Feb 21, 2002)

Ok, so we can assume that there were more dragons after Smaug, roaming the lands of Middle-Earth, but smaug was the last "famous" dragon The last who was written about.


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## Cian (Feb 21, 2002)

He certainly got ink  

_"... Smaug the Golden, greatest of the dragons of his day ..."_ Appendix A RotK ~ reposted from earlier in this thread.


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## Beleg Strongbow (Feb 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ssgrif _
> *Ok, so we can assume that there were more dragons after Smaug, roaming the lands of Middle-Earth, but smaug was the last "famous" dragon The last who was written about. *



Yes you are both right.


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## Viceras Daydark (Mar 4, 2002)

I could be mistaken, but this is what I am able to gather from what I have read (Though I can't recall exactly where I read it).

Smaug was the last dragon of his time, but not the last dragon. I may be in correct here, but I believe in the Withered Heath, there were many dragon eggs layed of which many had yet to hatch. Perhaps Grond can help here, as I have discussed this subject with him before.

Hope this helps

-Vicerasy Daydark


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## Beleg Strongbow (Mar 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Viceras Daydark _
> *I could be mistaken, but this is what I am able to gather from what I have read (Though I can't recall exactly where I read it).
> 
> Smaug was the last dragon of his time, but not the last dragon. I may be in correct here, but I believe in the Withered Heath, there were many dragon eggs layed of which many had yet to hatch. Perhaps Grond can help here, as I have discussed this subject with him before.
> ...





yes that is right it has been discussed earlier.


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## chrysophalax (Mar 16, 2002)

Nay lesser beings... dragons have not totally disappeared from the
Withered Heath.To the which I can bear witness.And believe me,my
fire is hot enough for any who say differently.


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