# Do you think its better that we don't know?



## childoferu (Jun 22, 2009)

As I have read through many of the threads in The Halls of Tolkienology, going through all through cofusion and controversy such as certain_ demonic spirits_ have "wings" or not or the identity of a certain happy little fellow, but my fellow TTF members, I ask you really, is it best for there to be a tad (at least of tad) of mystery surrounding all of Tolkien's works


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## Illuin (Jun 23, 2009)

You bet. Without all of that confusion and controversy, what would we have to talk about? This forum was built on confusion and controversy. Go back and read some of the dialogue when the movies came out.


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## Prince of Cats (Jun 24, 2009)

Absolutely!

I think it's the depth and the room in that depth for so much interpretation that really keeps me coming back over and over to Tolkien's world. Every time I reread the books I have learned more and the experience is different, but at the same time knowing more always raises new questions and adventures of the imagination


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## chrysophalax (Jun 24, 2009)

Me, I've always been a Tolkien fan because I love the stories and I marvel at the complexity and variety he created on his world of Arda each time I re-read his works. Blithely, I accepted the whole thing at face value...weird, ain't it?

Perhaps it's just me, but very few questions ever occurred to me until Yay came out with his "Gollum is the Hero" declaration. The debate continues...


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## childoferu (Jun 24, 2009)

ahh, I have to say myself that the thought of gollum being even remotely considered a hero never came to me until I started browsing the TTF


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## YayGollum (Jun 24, 2009)

Before joining this place (because it is the best), I looked all over the internet and didn't see anyone calling Gollum the hero. But it's so obvious! There's more evidence, but ---> The point was destroying the One Ring thing, which Gollum did. Gollum is the hero. Why praise the superly boring Frodo, who did an inferior job compared to what any random Dwarf could have? Why praise the evil torturer Gandalf, who is either high, way too overconfident (and subsequently, really lucky), or just being evilly manipulative? Why praise the evil Aragorn, who hides under elvish skirts or abandons the best idea that the smartest dudes have to save the world as soon as he can? Crazy people.

Also, sure, Yay for questions. I'll easily answer all of them.


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## Illuin (Jun 24, 2009)

> Originally posted by *childoferu*
> _ahh, I have to say myself that the thought of gollum being even remotely considered a hero never came to me until I started browsing the TTF_


 
I've always considered Gollum to the hero. Even Gandalf indirectly alluded to the idea that Gollum was predestined to fulfill something "big". Contrary to what some of you are saying, I thought everyone considered Gollum to be the hero..............until I started browsing TTF.


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## Bucky (Jun 25, 2009)

Considering Gollum the hero is like saying Judas is the savior instead of Jesus......

Although certain sects did claim Judas had a higher level of insight which the other disciples did not (the alledged gospel of Judas)...... 


As far as Tolkien's work goes, it seems to me that many folks nowadays just reinterpret his work to fit _their_ idea of what it _should_ or _does_ say, according to _them._ NOt so much here, but on other sites, especially the BIGGEST one with all the movie fans. "Well I think it means this or that." with nary a delving into what the text actually says when looking for an answer - and regardless of how absurd & easily refutable their theory is by facts that are right there from the hand of JRR Tolkien himself.....

But NO, we wouldn't want Tolkien's own text to get in the way of OUR own opinion, would we? Certainly not. 

Rant over. 


See, in my experience, and an experience generally practiced here (which is why I enjoy this Tolkien site the most), the answer to the vast majority of the questions is right there, somewhere in black & white on paper if we just know where to look. Even if the answer isn't there cut & dried, we can usually glean enough information to make a sound, educated guess.

It's these bizarro world theories that come out of left field with no basis of fact & are then defended by "well, it's just my opinion and I'm entitled to that" that drive me crazy.


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## Illuin (Jun 25, 2009)

> Originally posted by *Bucky*
> _Considering Gollum the hero is like saying Judas is the savior instead of Jesus......_


 
Well, if Jesus decided to abandon His plan to save humanity, and forgo the Crucifixion at the last minute, and Judas was somehow put in His place, and it somehow fulfilled the same plan and purpose, I would agree with you. Anyway, we all have our biases when it comes to literature and film; and bias and the absurd usually go hand in hand.


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## chrysophalax (Jun 25, 2009)

Great analogy, Illuin! *chuckles* But seriously, it's fiction! Now were this the history of a real place, _then_ I would have questions and lots of them!


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## Bucky (Jun 25, 2009)

chrysophalax said:


> Now were this the history of a real place, _then_ I would have questions and lots of them!



*You mean it's not? *


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## Firawyn (Jun 26, 2009)

Good thread.

@ Bucky, 

LOL, I totally agree...Middle Earth is-to real!


@ childoferu...


> ahh, I have to say myself that the thought of gollum being even remotely considered a hero never came to me until I started browsing the TTF



You have been hereby enlightened.  Yay is right...Gollum is indeed worthy of hero-title-thing.

Illuin,


> and bias and the absurd usually go hand in hand.



Never a truer thing said!


@ Yay,

Nice to see you back on the board. Missed your awesomeness.


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## YayGollum (Jun 26, 2009)

I am always around, usually merely lurking about. Anyways, Yay for crazy theories! As a matter of course, only the ones that can be defended should be taken seriously, but still ---> The crazier, the more entertaining! The WitchKing was some kind of cross-dresser! Entirely defensible. Check out his name. He wishes to be thought of as some kind of witch? Are not those traditionally ladies? Ah, or mayhaps Sauron just gave all of his Ringwraiths silly titles? PixieDuke! BansheeConstable? No? I don't see any evidence to the contrary, besides the obvious, "But, dude, Tolkien entirely did not intend such." Well, my opinion is that, even if someone disagrees with the author, if they could mayhaps conceivably make sense, don't become indignant.


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## chrysophalax (Jun 27, 2009)

Witches are both male and female, Yay. Most people think male witches are called warlocks, but that term means liar or traitor.


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## Illuin (Jun 27, 2009)

> Originally posted by *chrysophalax*
> _Witches are both male and female, Yay. Most people think male witches are called warlocks, but that term means liar or traitor._


 

Warlocks






Remember this guy? 







_*"Hi Mr. Warlock". *_

_*"Erm....Winter please."*_ 


How about _"The Warlocks"_ Bucky?


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## Firawyn (Jun 27, 2009)

ROFL! Illuin, that's an awesome movie! 

Now look here people:

Warlock


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## Illuin (Jun 27, 2009)

> Originally posted by* Firawyn*
> _ROFL! Illuin, that's an awesome movie! _


 
Best Christmas special of all time. Best music score. 

_"Outlaw the dolls and sink the boats_
_They bring me only woes..._
_It's a dif-fi-cult re-spon-si-bil-i-ty........." _


Good ol' Burgermeister Meisterburger


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## chrysophalax (Jun 28, 2009)

Not to be disagreeable, but for the sake of clarity...

Q. Are Witches only women? 

A. No, although women do seem to predominate in the Craft overall. In fact, some traditions have only women practitioners, just as others have only men. A male Witch is simply called a Witch, never a warlock and it is considered an insult to call a male Witch "Warlock". The word "Warlock" actually means "oath breaker". Some traditions of Wicca separate between female/male. The word "Wicce" pronounced (Wik-kay) designates a female Witch and "Wicca" pronounced (Wik-kah) designates a male Witch. 

This is from a site called Witches, Witchcraft and Paganism.


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## Bucky (Jun 28, 2009)

illuin said:


> how about _"the warlocks"_ bucky?



*dark lord crashes;
pouring his tower into ashes......*


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