# Is there a "god" in the Lord of the Rings?



## Hobbit Child (Mar 26, 2003)

I am new here but I noticed a _really long_ thread on the topic of "Finding God in the Lord of the Rings." I don't have time to read 900 and something long messages but I was wondering what is the consensus view on this topic. For myself, I know that Tolkien was a christian, but I find some important character's missing if he really meant this to be an allegory. For instance, where is God? Not just the gods of different religions but the God of Tolkein's Christian faith? One who is all-powerfull, who not only guides events but _plans_ them. 
Also, I don't see a true "Christ figure." The closest I can get is Gandalf who fell into the abyss with the balrog and died and came back to life. However, Tom Bombadill, Aragorn, and at times even Frodo Baggins seems a likely candidate.
I have not read many of Tolkein's letters or anything on this topic so if anyone can enlighten me there it would be greatly appreciated! I do have an opinion on this topic but am anxious to see what everyone else thinks.


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## Elendil3119 (Mar 26, 2003)

Tolkien did not mean for LotR to be an allegory:


> As for any inner meaning or 'message', it has in the intention of the author none. It is neither allegorical nor topical. As the story grew it put down roots (into the past) and threw out unexpected branches; but its main theme was settled from the outset by the inevitable choice of the Ring as the link between it and The Hobbit.


 There's more after that too, in the forward to LotR.


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## Hobbit Child (Mar 26, 2003)

Okay, so I know that it's not really an allegory, but since he was a christian writing a fantasy, don't you think that his personal beliefs affected his writing? And if they did, in what way? Is there some truth that we can find in the book? Why did he write it so that Gandalf, the only one in the group that had power to face the evil of the balrog, sacrificed his life so that others may live, died, and ultimately destroyed this evil forever? This is an obvious parallel to Jesus Christ! Even in the movie, when Gandalf falls, he falls with his arms outstretched in the form of a cross. What did they mean by this? Could it be that Tolkein's christianity was so much a part of him that he couldn't even write a fairy tale without it? I think that this may be part of what makes Lord of the Rings so good, the fact that it is based (in a very, very small part) on a true story. 
By the way, thanks for the information from the introduction! I'll be sure to read it again!


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## Lantarion (Mar 27, 2003)

Welcome to the forums, HobbitChild.
But I think you are looking too hard for what sin't there. Obviously Tolkien's beliefs affected his work: if he had been an atheist I don't think he would have written Ilúvatar or the Valar at all! It's a healthy recreation to look for allegory and metaphor within books and stories, but if you already _know_ (i.e. by the Author's own words) that there is none intended, then I think it is disrespectful to force such allegory where it does not exist.
And as for your argument, 


> _Originally posted by HobbitChild_
> Why did he write it so that Gandalf, the only one in the group that had power to face the evil of the balrog, sacrificed his life so that others may live, died, and ultimately destroyed this evil forever?


it is not very valid; it sounds very biblical and mythical, and might persuade some to believe that it is an actual allegory. But in the context of the book this example is not usable: Gandalf sacrificed himself = Yes; He did this so the others may live = Yes and No. He also did it because, IMHO, he felt it was his duty to destroy any surviving evil independent of Sauron, and the fact that both he and the Valarauko were Maiar must have had something to do with it; but as I recall (and now I'm not an expert on the Bible or the Apocalypse) Jesus did/does not _destroy_ the Devil per se, whereas Gandalf actually combats the demon, and kills it. I distinctly remember it being said that Jesus did not condone killing.. So Olórin might not have been a terribly good Jesus-figure.

And the "even in the movie" argument is so unreliable that I don't see why you posted it.. Unless it's in the book, or stated elsewhere by JRRT himself, whatever the movie shows is incorrect. 
I have said this many times, but I'll say it again: if you look hard enough you can find allegory and metaphor in just about every single literary work composed on this Earth.


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## Dimatron (Mar 27, 2003)

I dont think tolkien wanted to involve god,christ and that.
It would make readers of other reledgiions confiused and its quite a thin subject.

To be honest i think the elves are something like holy...


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## Feanorian (Mar 27, 2003)

Another note Tolkien says that he hated allegory. Such as the works of one of his best friends C.S. Lewis in the Chronicles of Narnia was an allegory to the Gospel of The Chirstian Religion.(although he in know way hated his good friend Many things influenced Tolkien's works not just Christianity, ancient mythologies played a big role, such as the Valar, they resemble the Greek and Roman Gods (i.e. Zeus, Jupiter, etc).


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## Elendil3119 (Mar 27, 2003)

Tolkien also said in the forward:


> Other arrangements could be devised according to the tastes or views of those who like allegory or topical reference. But I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history, true or feigned, with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse 'applicability' with 'allegory'; but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.


I think what you are doing, Hobbit Child, is _applying_.


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## Feanorian (Mar 27, 2003)

Well the only things holy about them would be their immortality, and the fact that some of them have seen the light of Valinor, they are more gifted then men that is all they are meant to live forever ON EARTH or in its realms, while men are blessed to be taken away from the world when they die, who knows where probably a heaven of some sorts. The Elves are older and wiser then men(because they were awakened before them)


To be honest i think the elves are something like holy...


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## Melko Belcha (Mar 27, 2003)

The Letters of JRR Tolkien - #142


> The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all referance to anything like 'religion', to cults or practices, in the imaginary world.


Many elements of LOTR and his bigger mythology comes straight out of European myth and legends. His beliefs did effect the way he wrote, but only on the surface, the deeper you dig into Tolkien's work, the more you can see how different his world is. The fall and return of Gandalf is a very popular type of story found throughout myth and legends, (an old wise man leading a group of people who dies defending them, only to return at just the right moment), Tolkien wanted to take his favorite stories and legends and put them all in the same world. Tolkien also wanted to put pieces into his story that people could relate to in their own lives, whether it is religion, politics, and just everyday living. I might have been confusing, Sorry, but it's just hard to put down exactually what I am trying to say.


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## BlackCaptain (Mar 27, 2003)

Eru, or Ilúvatar.


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## Hobbit Child (Mar 27, 2003)

I am now thouroughly convinced that LOTR is not an allegory. But that is not exactly what my question was in the first place. Thank you Elendill3119! Aplicability is exactly what I was trying to accomplish here. I find it hard to believe that a brilliant man like Tolkein would have written this extremely long book with absolutely no other purpose than to have fun. What was Tolkein trying to say in this book and was he right? This is a complicated question that I honestly don't know the answer to but I still really think that he would not have written a book with no point.
Lantarion, you said that "Jesus does not condone killing." I guess this is a little off the topic, but all you have to do is read some out of the book of Revelations (the last book in the Bible) and you will quickly learn that few condone certain types of killing as much as Christ. Also reading anywhere in the Old Testament (keeping in mind that Christ and God are One) will disprove this theory. In response to your "even in the movie" comment, I put that in just as an observation proving that those who made the movie must have thought that Tolkien's beliefs somehow affected his writing.
Dimatron, how would you define "holy"?
"Many things influenced Tolkien's works not just Christianity, ancient mythologies played a big role, such as the Valar, they resemble the Greek and Roman Gods (i.e. Zeus, Jupiter, etc)."
Interesting comment, Gondorian45. Have you ever read what Tolkein's best friend C.S. Lewis had to say on the topic of the Greek and Roman Gods? I think you can find it in his book "Mere Christianity." Even if you are not at all interested in religion, you will find this book entertaining because it was written by one who loved mythologies.
Melko Belcha (where did that name come from?) I think you put your thoughts down very well, but have you ever wondered _why_ all these religions and cultures seem to have the same favorite stories? This is also true of returning king stories, the flood stories, and the great fall stories.
MorgulKing, be nice to the newbies! What on earth do you mean by "Eru, or Illuvitar"? 
Thank you all for your very helpfull comments! I am finding this forum thing really exciting! I was worried people wouldn't talk to me.


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## legolasismine (Mar 27, 2003)

Okay this is totally off the subject of discussion,but do you mean God with the big g meaning God in heaven or do you mean god like buddah?


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## Hobbit Child (Mar 27, 2003)

I mean God with a big G as in the God of the Bible.


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## legolasismine (Mar 27, 2003)

Okay good!
Thats what I was hopeing you mean't cause on your title it had alittle g and I though to myself why would Tolkien put in his books stuff about false gods when he is a christian!


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## Gil-Galad (Mar 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Dimatron _
> *I dont think tolkien wanted to involve god,christ and that.
> . *


There are too many parallels.There is too much allegory.If it hadn't been so,I would have agreed with you.But he does involve God.

legolasismine:


> Okay this is totally off the subject of discussion,but do you mean God with the big g meaning God in heaven or do you mean god like buddah?


Having in mind the fact that he is a Catholic who stronlgy believes in God I think he means God, with capital "G"


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## legolasismine (Mar 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Gil-Galad _
> * Having in mind the fact that he is a Catholic who stronlgy believes in God I think he means God, with capital "G" *




What,no isn't he a christian,I though he was cause thats what my teacher and friends told me.


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## Woo (Mar 27, 2003)

You lot are gonna confuse Hobbit child man.
Do not compare tlotr to the real world it can get complicated.
The answer to the question of is there a God in the lord of the rings is yes there is.
His true name is Eru, but the elves call him Iluvatar.
He created the Valar who helped in the creation of arda where middle earth is located.
When men die they go to the halls of mandos and then later to Eru.
If u read the Silmarrilion u will understand.


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## Hobbit Child (Mar 27, 2003)

Of course he involves God. He's a christian, isn't he? No christian as devoted as he seems to have been would have been _able_ to write an entire book and not have it reflect his beliefes. The christian life is one of intensities. Intense joy, intense sorrow, intense peace. You can see these intensities permeating his book. The christian also understands that this present world is a battlefield in the truest sense of the word. Lord of the Rings simply makes that battlefield clearer. I know some of you will say that I'm just "reading stuff in that's not there." But I know from experience that no christian can write such a book as the Lord of the Rings and not have it reflect these beliefes at least in small part.


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## Flame of Udûn (Mar 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by legolasismine _
> *Okay this is totally off the subject of discussion,but do you mean God with the big g meaning God in heaven or do you mean god like buddah? *


Buddha was not thought to be a god, rather a man who achieved enlightenment.


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## Lantarion (Mar 28, 2003)

I was just about to comment on that! 
Legolasismine I think you mean to distinguish between the God of the Christian, Jewish and Muslim religion and the general term of 'god', as presented in various myths (e.g. Thor, Freya or Odin in the Norse Edda; and Ra, Horus or Anubis in Egyptian mythology). In the Silmarillion a classic Creator is given, as Eru Ilúvatar. This would correspond to the Christian/Islamic/Judaic '*G*od'; whereas as the Valar correspond to the pantheons of _g_ods in many European and Scandinavian beliefs.


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## legolasismine (Mar 28, 2003)

Exactly!

See I was brought up as a Christian and my teacher always told be to spell my God with a big G and not alittle one cause she said alittle one symbolizes buddah or other idol gods and buddah is a god of people from India its in my old history books I still have,I think its called buddism but its a very small group of people in India that are apart of it cause most of them still believe in hinduism witch is the worship of more false gods.


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## Melko Belcha (Mar 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Hobbit Child _
> *
> Melko Belcha (where did that name come from?) I think you put your thoughts down very well, but have you ever wondered why all these religions and cultures seem to have the same favorite stories? This is also true of returning king stories, the flood stories, and the great fall stories.
> *


I got my name from The Tale of Tinuviel, The Book of Lost Tales pt. II. But I think Beren says Morgoth Belcha. 

I do wonder alot about how ancient cultures stories are very similar. I am not a religious person, so my thoughts on stuff may be out there to some people. I have done much studing on similar stories found in different cultures throughout the world.

I am not a religious person so I don't have much to add, but I found this interesting.
Letters #213


> But only one's guardian Angel, or indeed God Himself, could unravel the real relationship between personal facts and an author's works. Not the author himself (though he knows more than any investigator), and certainly not so-called 'psychologists'.


And Tolkien was a Roman Catholic.


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## Leto (Mar 28, 2003)

*lololol* ok, I just have to say something...

"I think its called budhism but its a very small group of people in India that are apart of it cause most of them still believe in hinduism witch is the worship of more false gods."

The world is a very much larger, and more diverse place than some Christian churches would like you to think.

Buddhism is not a small group of people...China is the most populated country in the world, and It is predominantly Buddhist. India is the second most populated country in the world, and its second biggest religion is Buddhism. That's not even mentioning Japan and Korea, which are also mostly Buddhist. There are Buddhists all over the world, in lesser numbers, even in the United States. It is a very significant, major religion. 

To know what it's really about, you'd have to look into it, study it yourself. Christian History books aren't going to give an unbiased view of other religions. 


As for the actual topic of the thread...others have said it already. Tolkien put God, the One God he believed in, into his mythology, in the form of Eru, Iluvatar. You can read about that in 'Ainulindale', which is the creation story of Middle Earth, at the beginning of the 'Silmarillion'. Eru is only present in 'Lord of the Rings' as a hidden force, never mentioned but that appears through the events of the story. Hinted at, such as
"I believe Bilbo was meant to find the ring, and not by its maker. Which also means that you were meant to have it..."

As well as Gandalf's reference to God "I am a servant of the Secret Fire (the 'Holy Spirit' of Eru), wielder of the Flame of Anor."

There are other hints as to the intervention of Eru, as well as his 'Powers' in Middle Earth, the Valar...(such as the Great Eagles, The phial of Galadriel, the hymn to Elbereth which Frodo and Sam use in their desperation)

Read the Silmarillion, though...that will remove any doubt that Tolkien put 'God' into Middle Earth.


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## legolasismine (Mar 28, 2003)

Sorry I mean't to say its a very small group in India that believe in buddah the rest still believe in hinduism,its true I have even read in other books,but as for my christian history books being biased,it might be right cause my christian history books only talk about christians throught history and people who needed to become christians.


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## Gothmog (Mar 28, 2003)

Tolkien had a number of reasons for writing his books, one is as follows.


> But an equally basic passion of mine ab initio was for myth (not allegory!) and for fairy-story, and above all for heroic legend on the brink of fairy-tale and history, of which there is far too little in the world (accessible to me) for my appetite. I was an undergraduate before thought and experience revealed to me that these were not divergent interests - opposite poles of science and romance - but integrally related. I am not 'learned' in the matters of myth and fairy-story, however, for in such things (as far as known to me) I have always been seeking material, things of a certain tone and air, and not simple knowledge. Also - and here I hope I shall not sound absurd - I was from early days grieved by the poverty of my own beloved country: it had no stories of its own (bound up with its tongue and soil), not of the quality that I sought, and found (as an ingredient) in legends of other lands. There was Greek, and Celtic, and Romance, Germanic, Scandinavian, and Finnish (which greatly affected me); but nothing English, save impoverished chap-book stuff. Of course there was and is all the Arthurian world, but powerful as it is, it is imperfectly naturalized, associated with the soil of Britain but not with English; and does not replace what I felt to be missing. For one thing its 'faerie' is too lavish, and fantastical, incoherent and repetitive. For another and more important thing: it is involved in, and explicitly contains the Christian religion.


 As you can see from the last few words, He felt that having too much of the Christian religion Explicit in the story would be wrong.

He follows with this about such things.


> For reasons which I will not elaborate, that seems to me fatal. Myth and fairy-story must, as all art, reflect and contain in solution elements of moral and religious truth (or error), but not explicit, not in the known form of the primary 'real' world. (I am speaking, of course, of our present situation, not of ancient pagan, pre-Christian days. And I will not repeat what I tried to say in my essay, which you read.)


 So while his beliefs are indeed in his work, they are not there in the form of Explicit Christian beliefs.

As for the God in Lord of the Rings. It has been correctly stated that this is Eru. As for the Valar Tolkien says this


> The cycles begin with a cosmogonical myth: the Music of the Ainur. God and the Valar (or powers: Englished as gods) are revealed. These latter are as we should say angelic powers, whose function is to exercise delegated authority in their spheres (of rule and government, not creation, making or re-making). They are 'divine', that is, were originally 'outside' and existed 'before' the making of the world. Their power and wisdom is derived from their Knowledge of the cosmogonical drama, which they perceived first as a drama (that is as in a fashion we perceive a story composed by some-one else), and later as a 'reality'. On the side of mere narrative device, this is, of course, meant to provide beings of the same order of beauty, power, and majesty as the 'gods' of higher mythology, which can yet be accepted - well, shall we say baldly, by a mind that believes in the Blessed Trinity.


 So he gives a Panthion of "gods" while not having more than One God.

All quotes are from Tolkien's letters number 131 to Milton Waldman


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## Jesse (Mar 28, 2003)

Lord of the Rings was not meant to have any religious characters, values, or beliefs in it. LotR was meant to simply be an enjoyable series of books where characters fought a real evil. However I see Gandalf the White as God. He is all-powerful and can destroy Saruman and Sauron if he wanted to. Does anyone else see Gandalf the White this way??


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## legolasismine (Mar 29, 2003)

I see Gandalf as a helper of God,like a prophet,but I don't see him as God himself,no not at all,and I don't think Tolkien would portray him that way.


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## ChunkyLover53 (Mar 29, 2003)

Isn't Gandalf the Maia: Olorin? So, he's kinda like an angel in the real world if you're trying to compare them to the real world...but Eru is like God, Valar are like Greek gods, and Maiar are like Angels. That's at least the way I kinda look at them.


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## Hobbit Child (Mar 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Jesse _
> *Lord of the Rings was not meant to have any religious characters, values, or beliefs in it. LotR was meant to simply be an enjoyable series of books where characters fought a real evil. However I see Gandalf the White as God. He is all-powerful and can destroy Saruman and Sauron if he wanted to. Does anyone else see Gandalf the White this way?? *



Like I said before, I just cann't believe that a really brilliant author like Tolkein would write a book just to be enjoyable. Second, it is obvious that LotR was meant to have "religious values" in it. If Gandalf the White is God, wouldn't that be a religious character?
It seems to me that if Gandalf really was God, then he would have been able to bend the will of the ring to good and to controle events. Even Gandalf doesn't seem to have this power. Eru must be the representation of God.


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## ChunkyLover53 (Mar 29, 2003)

Tolkien incorperated a lot of Anglo-Saxon beliefs in his works (combination of Christianity and Paganism)...he basically studied all of that as an English Professor- he was fascinated with the the stuff, i believe.

I don't think his purpose of writing the stories was to think his work is to represent Christianity, but I also don't think it is wrong to find God in his work...I do believe it is wrong though to say that he DID represent Christianity when in fact he wrote the stuff just for himself, so why would he want to give a sermon through his books?


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## BlackCaptain (Mar 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Hobbit Child _
> *MorgulKing, be nice to the newbies! What on earth do you mean by "Eru, or Illuvitar"? *



You asked:



> _Originally posted by Hobbit Child_
> I know that Tolkien was a christian, but I find some important character's missing if he really meant this to be an allegory. For instance, where is God? Not just the gods of different religions but the God of Tolkein's Christian faith? One who is all-powerfull, who not only guides events but plans them.
> Also, I don't see a true "Christ figure."



That God figure would be Eru, who's name is also Illuvitar. He is the God of all, and dwells in the Void, which is quite simalar to Heaven: A state of nothingness where spirits roam freely.


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## Feanorian (Mar 29, 2003)

Tolkien himself admits to the fact that although he does not want LOTR to reflect any specific religion it does in some ways represent his own, he was a very devoted Catholic man and admits to that fact that some of his beliefs, and morals fit into his writings. And what you say is untrue about Gandalf he is not all-powerful, even without the Ring Sauron is stronger then him, because when he comes back as Gandalf the White he says he is now the second most powerful being on M-E, I do not know if you are familiar with any other writings by Tolkien such as The Silmarrilon(sp) but it shows a level of Middle Earth and Arda in general that has pepole abundandtly stronger then Sauron or Gandalf with or without the One Ring.


*Lord of the Rings was not meant to have any religious characters, values, or beliefs in it. LotR was meant to simply be an enjoyable series of books where characters fought a real evil. However I see Gandalf the White as God. He is all-powerful and can destroy Saruman and Sauron if he wanted to. Does anyone else see Gandalf the White this way?? *[/QUOTE]


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## Lantarion (Mar 31, 2003)

Please excuse, it's about time for my weekly nitpicking rampage.. 

Legolasismine: the Buddha (note spelling) is not a god. In fact, he distinctly told his 'followers' not to worship him as a god. He was just the first enlightened man, i.e. the first to reach communion with Brahman. [Hinduism, Taoism and Buddhism are actually very closely related, differing only in some political or specific matters]. 

MorgulKing: Eru's title is spelt _Ilúvatar_, and it is Quenya. It means "All-Father" literally (not being a scholar on Quenya, I only discern the word _atar_, 'father'; I know the meaning of the whole name from other sources).

Fëanorian: You present a basically good and valid point; but we must remember that Sauron was the most powerful beinng in Arda in the Third Age. Melkor was banished into the Void, and Sauron was pretty much all that was left of his great legions of evil (at any rate he was the most powerful). 

Haha, sorry if I insulted anybody with this, it's in my nature.


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## Ol'gaffer (Mar 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lantarion _
> *Please excuse, it's about time for my weekly nitpicking rampage.. *



I can never tell anyway..



> _Originally posted by Lantarion_
> *Haha, sorry if I insulted anybody with this, it's in my nature.  *



see?..


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