# Orc and Goblins..The Same, different, crossbred?



## Narsil (Sep 4, 2004)

Please bear with me on this one...

In _The Hobbit_ Orcs aren't mentioned at all...only Goblins are. It is Goblins that capture Bilbo, Gandalf and the Dwarves in the Misty Mountains and Goblins that they fight in the Battle of the Five Armies.

Elrond refers to the swords which Gandalf brought from the trolls' lair as "Very old swords of the High Elves of the West" and tells them they were made in Gondolin for the Goblin-wars and that Gandalf's sword, Glamdring, Foehammer was the one that the king of Gondolin once wore and Orcrist was called "Goblin-cleaver". 

However in _The Silmarillion_ only Orcs are mentioned, including how they were bred from tortured Elves by Morgoth. It is Orcs that are battled in Gondolin (among other things). There's no mention of Goblins at all in _The Sil_ but plenty about Orcs. 

Orcs are also mentioned throughout the LOTR, not Goblins. Orcs are the main servants of the Enemy. It is _Orcs_ that are populating the Misty Mountains and have taken over Moria, not Goblins.

I tend to think that when Tolkien wrote _The Hobbit_ he first used the recognizable term "Goblin" and later came up with _Orcs_..that the two are interchangeable and pretty much the same thing. 

However a friend of mine debates me on this and insists that Goblins are a "Force of Nature", like trolls or dragons and are a species from nature and that Orcs were specifically "bred" to be servants of Morgoth in mockery of the Elves and that they are a mutation. He points out that Saruman, in breeding his fighting Urak-Hai took "Goblin-Men" and combined them with Orcs to create an army that could fight in the daytime. In other words...Goblins are made by nature and Orcs are a specific product of evil. 

Some of the things I've read in _The Two Towers_ seems to agree with this...That indeed "Goblins" are their own species and apart from Orcs. In his description of Saruman's army Merry says..



> ..But there were some others that were horrible: man-high, but with goblin-faces, sallow, leering, squint eyed."



However, all in all I still believe that when it comes to Tolkien the Goblins in _The Hobbit_ evolved and later "became" the Orcs in LOTR and The Sil. Perhaps there are indeed a species called Goblins out there but I think that Tolkien pretty much as "Orcs" in mind whereas he was calling them "Goblins" in the earlier book _The Hobbit_...he just hadn't named them yet. 

I'm curious about what others think....


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## Confusticated (Sep 5, 2004)

Well Orc is the elvish word for "Goblin" I think "Goblin" is used as an English translation of whatever Westron word means orc.

But I wanted to say that Tolkien already had the name orcs (among other elvish names for them) for the Goblins before he wrote 'The Hobbit', he just chose not to use the word regularly in that story.


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## Gothmog (Sep 5, 2004)

"Orc" and "Goblin" refer to the same creature as can be seen by some of Tolkien's comments in his letters, particularly letter 131.



> Also the Orcs (goblins) and other monsters bred by the First Enemy are not wholly destroyed.


As can be seen, Tolkien himself shows that goblin is an alternative name for Orc. As for Goblin being used so much in the Hobbit, this is possibly due to the fact that this story was writen for children and the name "Goblin" would fit in better.

Also, it could be looked at from the view that "Goblin" was a name aplied to Orcs by peoples such as Hobbits who had little contact with Elves or Men well-versed in lore and so gave these creatures different names in the same way that Hobbits themselves were known by various names among men such as "Holbytlan", "Halflings" and "Perianath".


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## Eledhwen (Oct 31, 2004)

It can also be seen in Gandalf's and Thorin's sword names: Glamdring, from 'Glamhoth' - an Elvish name for a host of Goblins; and Orcrist, which Elrond translated as Goblin Cleaver.


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## Ashiaro (Nov 8, 2004)

By no means am I sure of this, but I'm pretty sure they're the same. I think goblins are what the hobbits call them, because that's what they're called in TH, but in TLOTR, they're usually referred to as orcs.


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## Aglarband (Nov 8, 2004)

Read the forward to the Hobbit, it should address that the names are interchangable.


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