# Galadriel's Exaggeration



## Harad (Feb 22, 2002)

On the movie forum, Bunnywhippit posted the following quote:



> Its rays glanced upon a ring about her finger; it glittered like polished gold overlaid with silver light, and a white stone in it twinkled as if the Even-star had come down to rest upon her hand. Frodo gazed at the ring with awe; for suddenly it seemed to him that he understood.
> 
> 'Yes,' she said, divining his thought, 'it is not permitted to speak of it, and Elrond could not do so. But it cannot be hidden from the Ring-bearer, and one who has seen the Eye. Verily it is in the land of Lórien upon the finger of Galadriel that one of the Three remains. This is Nenya, the Ring of Adamant, and i am its keeper.'



I thought "cannnot be hidden" was an odd statement considering that Frodo had been in the company of both Elrond and Gandalf. Yet there was no indication that Frodo knew about their respective Rings.

PRH added:



> Yes, very odd. Especially when you consider that at the time of this converstaion with Galadriel, Frodo had not worn the Ring since Amon Sul. Yet he had spent plenty of time with Elrond and especially Gandalf in the interim.



Was Galadriel blowing smoke?


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## Eonwe (Feb 22, 2002)

um minor point, but perhaps Galadriel was the only one who wore the Ring in his company? I don't know of anything saying Gandalf or Elrond did. But at the end of LoTR he sees both other Rings.

Anyway, I don't understand why he would see it and not Sam, even though Frodo did not have the Ring on.

beezar


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## Bill the Pony (Feb 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Harad _
> *I thought "cannnot be hidden" was an odd statement considering that Frodo had been in the company of both Elrond and Gandalf. Yet there was no indication that Frodo knew about their respective Rings. *


*
Galadriel states that the requirements for 'can not be hidden' are both being a ringbearer and having seen the Eye. As far as I remember, the mirror is the fist time that Frodo sees the Eye, so it's only now that the Three can no longer be hidden. 
Sam doesn't fulfill either requirement, which is why somehow Galadriel can hide the ring from him. (How?? dunno, why do you need to have seen the Eye?? dunno)*


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## Harad (Feb 22, 2002)

Anythings possible. If Elrond and Gandalf were not wearing their Rings, why? Seems like the time to wear their Rings is before Sauron gets back the One-- not much good afer.

The "requirements" are themselves odd. Frodo wears the Ring on Weathertop and gets the full Nazgul treatment. At the Mirror he doesnt wear the Ring, yet sees the Eye. Later on Amon Hen he both wears the Ring and sees the Eye. Every possible combination.


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## aragil (Feb 22, 2002)

Well, Frodo's exposure to Elrond came mainly from the dinner of 'Many Meetings' and the Council. Elrond need not wear it at all times- perhaps there's a time for 'ringly' business, and otherwise he and Galadriel keep their rings stored somewhere safe. Also, there were some very perceptive people at the Council and dinner whom Elrond may not have wanted to show off the ring to (not that he would have been suspicious of anybody, but the Elves seemed to want to keep the rings secret from _everybody_).
Gandalf's much tougher. Since he is always wandering he would have had to keep it somewhere on his person at all times. Perhaps he had an invisible pair of lead gloves that he wore? Long lead sleaves on his Wizardly Gown? Perhaps Frodo was just not paying attention to rings when he looked at the Wizard's hands? Might he have mistook the ring of fire for a betrothal band from Radagast? Perhaps Gandalf's ring had special powers of concealment, which is why Galadriel says that wherever Gandalf goes a cloud goes with him?


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## Beleg Strongbow (Feb 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by aragil _
> *Well, Frodo's exposure to Elrond came mainly from the dinner of 'Many Meetings' and the Council. Elrond need not wear it at all times- perhaps there's a time for 'ringly' business, and otherwise he and Galadriel keep their rings stored somewhere safe. Also, there were some very perceptive people at the Council and dinner whom Elrond may not have wanted to show off the ring to (not that he would have been suspicious of anybody, but the Elves seemed to want to keep the rings secret from everybody).
> Gandalf's much tougher. Since he is always wandering he would have had to keep it somewhere on his person at all times. Perhaps he had an invisible pair of lead gloves that he wore? Long lead sleaves on his Wizardly Gown? Perhaps Frodo was just not paying attention to rings when he looked at the Wizard's hands? Might he have mistook Galadriel says that wherever Gandalf goes a cloud goes with him? *


the ring of fire for a betrothal band from Radagast? Perhaps Gandalf's ring had special powers of concealment, which is why 




Yeah i find it hard that sauron although he guessed never fo sure found out wrer the 3 were hidden. Surely the elveswould know ere they are and they would have to use them sometime. They must have kept it in their pocket or something. Because it would be visible all the time. I'm sure the elves in rivendell would know where they are because you can trust them. 



> "Everything that day was divided everything except the elves." From the last alliance



They would never tell sauron but if it was known around there it would have seeked out sooner then later. And all his spy's might have heard something. But it would have been gandalf in the most danger of someone finding out he went everywhere and he would have found it hard to conceal. I can see galadriel's ring know one knowing about that. Remember noone up until the fellowship got into lorien and got out again and the few trusted that did like Aragorn and probably elronds sons would never had said a word. But who know eh?????


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## Strider97 (Feb 25, 2002)

In the Grey Havens it is mentioned that they now see Gandalf openly wearing his ring. This indicates that he had not worn it openly before. With Elrond it is possible that the two part test of seeing the eye and having worn the ring is possible. More probable is that Elrond did not wear it openly at home. Simple possession was good enough to affect Frodo and Bilbo's aging process. Perhaps Elrond, Gandalf and Galadriel were able to maintain the effects of the rings without earing them constantly.


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## Harad (Feb 25, 2002)

These 3 Rings dont seem too impressive. Why is it that that great loafer Glorfindel can chase the Nazgul hither and yon for 2 Ages, yet Gandalf the Maia with a Ring seems a little queasy when the Witch King is mentioned, and we never hear of Elrond or Galadriel going after them.


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## Bucky (Feb 25, 2002)

Very good point Harad.

But remember Glorfindel (3rd Age version), was a High Elf & Gandalf states that 'against both the Seen & Unseen' he has great power.

Elrond is not an Elf that has seen the light on the 2 Trees.

Galadriel, never does any combat that I recall.
Although it is plainly stated she is the 'greatest' or most 'powerful' of the Eldar still in ME.... 

AND, remember, Elrond plainly tells Boromir at the COE that 'they (the 3) were not made as weapons of war or conquest'. 
That alone would indicate they wouldn't give any advantage vs The Nazgul or #1 in particular, who as the Witch-king, was headed straight towards Eanur in the midst of a battle but turned & high-tailed it out of there when Glorfindel showed up.

>>>Anyway, I don't understand why he would see it and not Sam, even though
Frodo did not have the Ring on. 

Sam is a rather 'simple' fellow you know.
Remember he was eavesdropping on Gandalf & Frodo for a long time but said he heard a bunch of stuff he really didn't understand, although that could've been a 'smoke-screen' to cover up his spying. However, the 'don't understand' angle fits in better with Sam's persona. 
Sam is not the smartest guy around (and knows it), but he has alot more common sense (and courage) than many who perhaps have more 'knowledge'.


Now, some factless speculation:
Galadriel seems to show Frodo because he's ring bearer. It seems to me she just adds 'and one who has seen the Eye' as an aside. I doubt Frodo seeing the Eye now qualified him to see Three.....

Is it possible that Elrond & Gandalf wore the rings on, say their toe or the Rings could make themselves invisible at their owner's will?
Maybe one only had to posess one of the Three to acsess it's power as they were made by Celebrimbor alone & had different properties than the other Rings (for example, they did not give invisibility to their wearers).

Obviously, Gandalf needed to use the power of his Ring (remember Cirdan's words when giving it to him?). 
He obviously couldn't just take it off every time somebody came around him could he? So, there must have been another way to conceal it.


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## Harad (Feb 25, 2002)

> But remember Glorfindel (3rd Age version), was a High Elf & Gandalf states that 'against both the Seen & Unseen' he has great power.



Aha...Fell into my trap..but I'll let it go...

Dont you think Gandalf was using his Ring in his Death Match with the unnamed Balrog (or was his name DB?)


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## Bucky (Feb 25, 2002)

>>>AND, remember, Elrond plainly tells Boromir at the COE that 'they (the 3)
were not made as weapons of war or conquest'. 

So, I guess the answer is no.


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## Harad (Feb 25, 2002)

Still as a defensive gem, it would come in handy preserving him in Death, if not in Life.

Why else did Cirdan tell him: Here you take it, You'll need it.


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## Bucky (Feb 25, 2002)

>>>

Why else did Cirdan tell him: Here you take it, You'll need it.

"To rekindle the hearts of a world that grows cold"

But, I do agree that while not being a offensive weapon, the Ring might help him defensively.
Nothing factual to base that statement on though.

It does say in fact that the Three 'preserved things' though, so maybe the Ring kept Gandalf's body from rotting, although in the cold up there....
Wait a minute, this is getting absurd. 
Anything with the power to send Gandalf back from 'death' would have the power to give him a new body too.


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## Grond (Feb 25, 2002)

I think this has a pretty simple answer. First, my opinion is that the Three were always worn. They were not Rings of military Power... only Rings of a different Power. They created a type of "time warp." They kept things from aging and "changing" with time. The forests and gardens and dwelling of Imladris and Lorien were protected from the deterioration of time. That suited the Elves because, being immortal, they needed stability to keep them from tiring of Middle-earth. 

Fordo was the Ring-bearer and had just looked into the Mirror of Gladriel. He had also seen the Eye of Sauron and the Ring was very active. (It had tried to drag him to the eye in the Mirror.) I would think that Frodo's senses would have been strongly attuned to "Ring Power" at that moment and I don't think any Ring anywhere could have been hidden from Frodo's enhanced vision at that moment. 


It should be noted that at the Parting from Lorien the next morning, no mention is made of anyone seeing the Galadriel's Ring.


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## Strider97 (Feb 25, 2002)

Grond,

I agree with everything except Gandalf always openly wearing the ring. The passage in the Grey Havens clearly notes that he was now wearing the ring openly? Otherwise why mention it.


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## Eonwe (Feb 25, 2002)

Fordo was of course, Frodo's original discarded name, that Tolkien last used in HoME circa 1941. It was the battle of the bulge, that made him change the name to Frodo. The rest is history (Fordo lives!)

I can't imagine how the owner of a ring of power can wear the Ring without it being seen. Yet this is what happens to Sam. Perhaps Galadriel is able to hide her figure well.

I mean what do they do, wear it on a chain, keep it in their pockets in case the sacksvalle-bagginses come by? Or hide it on an island in the middle of a subterranean lake?

But I don't think Sam is dumb enough not to see it (although arguable, since he thinks Caradhras is Orodruin).


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## Grond (Feb 25, 2002)

Openly as opposed to hidden. Maybe the Elven Ring Holders could control whether it was visible or not or perhaps they wore it around their necks on a chain much as Frodo did. I do not know but I am of the opinion that none would let it stray from their person.


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## Bucky (Feb 25, 2002)

I know it may sound dumb, but it is a possibility that the 'bearer' of one of the Three could control whether it was seen or not.

Remember, they were forged by Celebrimbor alone & weren't like the others.

That makes sense to me.


Or, maybe Elrond, Cirdan, Galadriel & Gandalf had pierced belly-buttons?
Nah....


BTW, remember when Gandalf's Ring is seen at the end, it's a powerless Ring.


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## Harad (Feb 25, 2002)

The Buckman has a point...It makes sense for the 3 to wear theirs ALL the time while Sauron is separated from his Ring. It makes sense for them to have enuf power to hide themselves. The OneRing not only hid itself, but the whole person wearing it. Then when the 3 Rings lost their power, they were revealed.

The only other instance was when Frodo saw Galadriel. Unfortunately I have a bone to pick with this, since Frodo was not wearing the Ring.

This is the second time that an external magical force interacts with the Ring to cause unexpected effects. With the Mirror Frodo has "Ring"-like effects without even wearing the Ring. On Amon Hen, while wearing the Ring, similar things happen.


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## Grond (Feb 25, 2002)

As posted in the other thread, the author did intend for Amon Hen to be a special place and as is apparent in the Mirror of Galadriel chapter, her mirror was a very special place as well. In a world of magical Rings and Dragons and Balrogs, magical places are commoner that they are here. 

And for the record, I was the one who said, "Maybe the Elven Ring Holders could control whether it was visible or not or perhaps they wore it around their necks on a chain much as Frodo did."


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## Harad (Feb 25, 2002)

There's magic and theres more magic.

The Mirror makes the Eye appear without the Ring being worn.

On Amon Hen the Eye appears with the Ring being worn.

And to give credit, Grond said the Rings might have concealed themselves. Bucky said the Ring might have been revealed after it lost its power.


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## Dhôn-Buri-Dhôn (Feb 26, 2002)

Okay, my theory (which is mine), is this:

"My Theory":
(by Donnie B.)

The Great Ring makes the wearer invisible when worn.

The Elven Rings make the Ring invisible when worn.

End of My Theory.


Note that this fits nicely with the "elven rings are revealed when the Great Ring is destroyed" concept. It also has a nice symmetry: Sauron made a twisted, reversed version of the Elven Rings, one which acted backward; acted to destroy rather than preserve; acted to betray rather than rekindle courage.

It also suggests that Gandalf and Elrond could have worn their rings all the time, and no one but the bearer of the Great Ring would know. However, after the Great Ring was destroyed, they must have removed them (or maybe they removed them as a precaution after Frodo went to Mordor, or earlier, when the Great Ring was identified), since we didn't see them while "Homeward Bound".

It also explains just how risky the Quest was. If the Three were worn routinely through much of the Third Age, then if Sauron got the Great Ring back, all was lost immediately.

My Theory has no evidence whatsoever, except that Sam can't see Galadriel's ring, even when it's worn.


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## Snaga (Feb 26, 2002)

Lets remember first of all that rings of power act differently for immortals (Maia and Elves) vs mortals. They make mortals go invisible, but this is not the case with immortals.

Secondly Lorien is a clear case of the ring being invisible to Sam, but not Frodo. Or strictly speaking he doesn't percieve it: he says he thinks he saw a star through her finger. I read this as meaning the wearers have the power to make people unaware that a ring of power is being worn. So, after Grond, I believe that the wielders of the three could conceal their rings whilst wearing them.

Additional reasoning: the time-distortion effects evident in Rivendell and Lorien are continuous, not on-off-on-off. If Galadriel and Elrond don't always wear the rings, they can't be using their powers IMO. Therefore they must always wear them.


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## Ståle (Feb 26, 2002)

The second Sauron first wore the one Ring, the yielders of the Three were aware of his malice, hatred and general badness, yet they didn't submit right away. I think even if Sauron got the Ring while they(Elrond, Galadriel and Cirdan/Gandalf) wore it, they'd have time to remove them.

However, all that had been wrought with them would turn against them, possibly making Lorien and Imladris(and the Grey Havens?) places like Minas Morgul.


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## Harad (Feb 26, 2002)

> The second Sauron first wore the one Ring, the yielders of the Three were aware of his malice, hatred and general badness, yet they didn't submit right away.



They didnt "submit" because they took off their Rings right away. No one of them strove with Sauron while wearing a Ring.



> However, all that had been wrought with them would turn against them,



Sorry but I dont believe this either. The power that they had to preserve those things would be lost--so they would fade. But they wouldnt turn to Evil until Sauron came and burned them down.


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## Grond (Feb 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Harad _
> *1)They didnt "submit" because they took off their Rings right away. No one of them strove with Sauron while wearing a Ring.
> 
> 2) Sorry but I dont believe this either. The power that they had to preserve those things would be lost--so they would fade. But they wouldnt turn to Evil until Sauron came and burned them down. *


1) Agree
2) Agree

Oh goodness. Here I am agreeing again.


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## Snaga (Feb 26, 2002)

I think Ståle's idea might be right if they _didn't_ take off their rings. Sauron would quickly dominate them, and turn them to evil.

If they take their rings off, Harad is right: Lorien and Imladris fade.


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## Eonwe (Feb 26, 2002)

I don't think they have to keep them on constantly to use their power. Where does it say that? Imladris and Lothlorien were said to fade after the One Ring was destroyed because the Three also lost their power; Elrond at the CoE says "But maybe when the One has gone, the Three will fail, and many fair things will fade and be forgotten." For instance the foundations of Barad-dur remain even though Sauron made them using the Ring, and he didn't have it on?

Anyway for most of the second age they weren't used at all, since Sauron had the one on. After Isildur's unfortunate swimming incident, the One Ring was presumed lost and they all went along merrily using the Rings. Elrond says to Gloin "they are not idle."

"They make mortals go invisible, but this is not the case with immortals."

VofK I think I asked you before, but where again is the quote for this?


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## Grond (Feb 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Eonwe _
> *I don't think they have to keep them on constantly to use their power. Where does it say that? Imladris and Lothlorien were said to fade after the One Ring was destroyed because the Three also lost their power; Elrond at the CoE says "But maybe when the One has gone, the Three will fail, and many fair things will fade and be forgotten." For instance the foundations of Barad-dur remain even though Sauron made them using the Ring, and he didn't have it on?
> 
> Anyway for most of the second age they weren't used at all, since Sauron had the one on. After Isildur's unfortunate swimming incident, the One Ring was presumed lost and they all went along merrily using the Rings. Elrond says to Gloin "they are not idle."
> ...


Letter 131 to Milton Waldman in late 1951. In part (it is a very, very long letter) it says, "...The Elves of Eregion made Three suprememly beautiful and powerful rings, almost solely of their own imagination, and directed to the preservation of beauty; they did not confer invisibility. But secretly in subterranean Fire, in his own Black Land, Sauron made One Ring, the Ruling Ring..." 

As for the Rings conferring power without being warn, I must vehemently disagree. If the Ruling Ring shows us anything at all, it is that it must be wielded to be claimed. It must be wielded to be used. I am certain (in my mind) that the Three were worn at all times and hidden by Elf vodoo or the Rings themselves could not be seen by those who had no dominion over them.


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## Eonwe (Feb 26, 2002)

sorry if it came across that way, I didn't mean it like that. What I meant was, if you did something with the Elven Ring, then took off the Ring, the thing you did doesn't go away. I wasn't talking about telepathic Ring use.

So Elrond could do whatever Vilya did (preserve the Air about his house to be as clear as the elder days or whatever), then take the Ring off, and the work done by that power would stay intact.

"Lets remember first of all that rings of power act differently for immortals (Maia and Elves) vs mortals. They make mortals go invisible, but this is not the case with immortals." -- VofK

I think the letter says that the Elven Rings don't make you invisible, it doesn't address what he said (a difference between mortals and immortals).


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## Snaga (Feb 27, 2002)

Eonwe,

I don't recall a direct quote. I think I'd need to build a case to prove the point. I feel fairly sure this has been discussed and concluded previously. No time now, but I'll try and put something together.

Anyone who wants to help ... it would be appreciated! Or am I on my own here?


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## Eonwe (Feb 27, 2002)

probably you did discuss it and I forgot. sorry.

If the Elven Rings didn't confer invisibility, I don't know of anyone besides Sauron that wore the One Ring that WASN'T a mortal. Of course Sauron wasn't invisible? Perhaps just a Maia/Vala would not become invisible (e.g. Bombadil. OOPS! He's not a Maia! )


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## Grond (Feb 27, 2002)

It should be noted that the Three Elven Rings did not confer invisibility according to the author's letter referenced earlier. All of the other 16 would have made Man invisible. Man would have included Hobbits as well. We have had a detail discussion on this matter on another thread. I will see if I can hunt it up and post the link. The Three were very different from the 16 as they were designed solely to preserve.


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## Bucky (Feb 27, 2002)

On the issue of invisibility:

I like the sound of the Mortal vs Immortal theory. But, like most therories, it is an IDEA not a fact (see evolution - sorry couldn't resist...).

However, I would say the division would need to be made clearer:
What if a Dark Elf wore a Ring of Power?

Remember, the RoP's put a person into the 'unseen' world. And, as Gandalf said, of The Eldar (or more precisely 'Calaquendi' or High Elves): "Against both the Seen & Unseen they have great power".
So, the High Elves, from whatever 'power' was 'absorbed' or 'transmitted' from the Light of The Two Trees, could now exist in a world which only Vala, Maiar, & Spirits (wraiths or otherwise) could be visibly seen.

My point is, Galadriel or Glorfindel, for example wouldn't need to enter the 'wraith' or 'Unseen' world via a RoP as Frodo would or Legolas might.


Any way, The Three Rings did in NO case confer invisibilty upon the wearers as Grond has previosly stated in Letter 131.

BTW, I'm reading 'The Letter's of JRR Tolkien' now & there is a wealth of commentary from JRR to be gleaned from some of them, like #131 or #144....


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## Eonwe (Feb 27, 2002)

so Elrond would be half-invisible if he wore the RoP? Or 11/59ths invisible?


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## Bucky (Feb 27, 2002)

No, Elrond is, IMHO, not a High Elf.

Did he see the Light of the Trees? 
No.
Can anyone show me anything that would indicate that being a 'High Elf' was hereditary?

Certainly, Elrond came from the finest stock in all Arda, and that alone would make him 'mighty among both Elves & Men'. 

BTW, Where'd you get 11/59's from?


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## Harad (Feb 27, 2002)

Little known fact: Elrond's greatgreat maternal grandmother was a hobbit. Hence the 11/59ths.


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## Beleg Strongbow (Feb 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Bucky _
> *No, Elrond is, IMHO, not a High Elf.
> 
> Did he see the Light of the Trees?
> ...





Did Gil-Galad see the light of the trees??? No but he was a noldor making him king of the high elves and a high elf.


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## Bucky (Feb 28, 2002)

Gil-Galad was King of THE NOLDOR by heredity.
And, the King of the High Elves was Ingwe.
Still is.

Where does it say Gil-Galad wasn't born in Valinor?
I know he's referred to as 'young' when Fingon sends him to the Falas about 400 years into the First Age. 
But who's to say 500 years old isn't young for an Elf?

I think it is likely Gil-Galad was born in ME.
And as he is called 'one of the 3 greatest of the Eldar remaining in ME', it does raise the issue of whether or not the special power of the Elves who saw the light of The Two Trees was thereafter hereditary.

Maybe we should start a new thread...


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