# Saruman gone bad, why?



## Mr. Underhill (Jul 18, 2003)

*Saruman gone bad*

What do you suppose it was that pushed Saruman to the dark side?? The Valar must have had faith in him or he never would have been assigned his mission. Was it his trip into the East?? Didn't two Istari besides Saruman travel into the East?? They were never heard from again ... what was Saruman's role in that? As Head of the Order you would think that he was aware of the Blue wizard's mission also.


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## Flammifer (Jul 18, 2003)

Yeah maybe Saruman did have a part in the loss (or downfall) of the two other wizards when they traveled into the east. Maybe even they became Ringwraiths?!? No, I made that up it's just that the other Nazgul that we know of in depth is the Witch-King and he was a sorcerer so maybe the others were too? I dunno, I just though maybe it's possible because didn't most of the Nine come from the East (around Rhun and beyond)?

Anyway about Saruman going bad Gandalf says at some point (I think at the Council of Elrond) that it is perilous even for the Wise to study the Ring of Power. This suggests it was his main downfall, but there are other factors.

Galadriel had always wanted Gandalf to lead the Istari, but because Gandalf didn't want a fixed abode Saruman had to be the Chief. Saruman might have resented the fact that Galadriel, the one who summoned the wizards, didn't really like him! Saruman says in "Many Partings" when the Wise and Co meet him on the way back to Rivendell:

"As for the Lady here, I do not trust her: she always hated me, and schemed for your (Gandalf) part. I do not doubt that she has brought you this way to have the pleasure of gloating over my poverty."

Also Saruman was probably jealous of Gandalf because Cirdan gave him the Ring of Fire.


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## YayGollum (Jul 18, 2003)

Well, I thought that all of the Istari types had the same mission. Maybe I'm just crazy. oh well. Sure, those blue wizards went to the east with Saruman, but I don't think he did anything evil to them. They just stayed there. Not a huge deal. Anyways, sure, I'd go with the idea that Saruman decided to be evil because he found things out about the One Ring. He got greedy. Also, I remember hearing where all of the Nazgul types came from, but no, they were definitely all humans.


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## Feanorian (Jul 18, 2003)

Doesnt it say somewhere either in UT or the Sil that the Blue wizards started some kinds of cults in the East??


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## Beleg (Jul 19, 2003)

> I think they went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Númenórean range: missionaries to 'enemy-occupied' lands, as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.



*Letters of J.R.R.Tolkien, Letter No 142*


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## HLGStrider (Jul 19, 2003)

That, Fean, was your yes.

I would say it had to do with Ring Studying. It probably also had to do with a lust of power and possibly a bit of jealousy.

I think he probably started wanting it a long time before, but I think he didn't truly fall (meaning start to be totally evil) until the Palantir came into the picture. Then he fell to Sauron's mightier will. 

If he would've done it before this is debatable, and I think we'd end up with a yes, but not to the same extent sort of answer, but I think the Palantir probably sealed his fate.

Did he have that the entire time he had Orthanc or did he find it later? I seem to remember it being the Orthanc stone, and maybe a line about resisting looking into it for awhile but then doing so and falling, but I don't remember where.

I always found it interesting that Denethor was stronger than Saruman in this way.


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## Flammifer (Jul 20, 2003)

Yes I remember reading somewhere also about Saruman resisting the temptation of the Stone for a while, and that is continued by what Gandalf says in TTT, in "The Palantir":

"...it appears that, as the rock of Orthanc has withstood the storms of time, so there the palantir of the tower remained. But alone it could do nothing but see small images of things far off and days remote. Very useful, no doubt, that was to Saruman; yet it seems that he was not content. Further and further abroad he gazed, until he cast his gaze upon the Barad-Dur. Then he was caught!"

This also suggests that Saruman only used the Stone in measure, until his curiosity overcame him and he looked to Mordor. Then Sauron caught him and eventually Saruman submitted to Sauron's stronger will.

Also HLG, I think the reason that Denethor resisted Sauron longer than Saruman was the fact that as a mortal, his will was nothing compared to Sauron's, unlike Saruman, whose will was formidable yet not *quite* strong enough. Also Saruman's pride and lust for power made him and easier target for Sauron. Denethor already had power, being the Steward of the City and also knew nothing or very little about the Ring.


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## HLGStrider (Jul 21, 2003)

> Also HLG, I think the reason that Denethor resisted Sauron longer than Saruman was the fact that as a mortal, his will was nothing compared to Sauron's, unlike Saruman, whose will was formidable yet not quite strong enough. Also Saruman's pride and lust for power made him and easier target for Sauron. Denethor already had power, being the Steward of the City and also knew nothing or very little about the Ring.



I don't agree. I think it was because he had more right, just as Aragorn has more right.

Aragorn had right as the Heir of Elendil, the stones master. Denethor had more Numenorean and more right than Saruman. . .

It is a rather shakey theory, but I think it can hold its share of water.


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## Flammifer (Jul 21, 2003)

> I don't agree. I think it was because he had more right, just as Aragorn has more right.
> 
> Aragorn had right as the Heir of Elendil, the stones master. Denethor had more Numenorean and more right than Saruman. . .
> 
> It is a rather shakey theory, but I think it can hold its share of water.



I understand your theory HLG, and it has its merits, but I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one!


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## FoolOfATook (Jul 21, 2003)

Just out of curiosity, Flammifer, have you read Tolkien's essay about The Palantiri in _Unfinished Tales_? You seem to be interested in them, and there's a lot of information there.


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## Flammifer (Jul 21, 2003)

> Just out of curiosity, Flammifer, have you read Tolkien's essay about The Palantiri in Unfinished Tales? You seem to be interested in them, and there's a lot of information there.



I wish I had read UT and everything else by Tolkien, but unfortunately many of that books such as _UT_ and _Letters_ and so on are rather hard to come by in Australia, though maybe it's simply my location, I live in Canberra, and the book shops around here are very commercial and don't really have much beyond LOTR, The Hobbit and The Sil. I haven't managed to get hold of UT and Letters and so on, but maybe I'll try and get hold of them over the internet!

Anyway, you're right FoaT, I am extremely interested in the _palantiri_! I'd love to read those books, so I'm going to look much harder now!


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## HLGStrider (Jul 21, 2003)

I also disagree with your theory, Flam, because I think that the desire for power very much existed in Denethor. . .as in part seen by his reluctance to give in to Strider (All that business about an upstart from the north). 

This could also be attributed to pride, but he was in no way eager to give up his seat.


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## Mithrandread (Jul 22, 2003)

Elgee, it appears that there is support for your theory in UT:



> In the case of Denethor, the Steward was strengthened, even against Sauron himself, by the fact that the Stones were far more amenable to legitimate users: most of all to true "Heirs of Elendil" (as Aragorn), but also to one with inherited authority (as Denethor), as compared to Saruman, or Sauron.



It also appears that Denethor may have used his Stone even before Saruman used the Orthanc-Stone:




> Gandalf might well think as he did on the matter, but it is probable, considering Denethor and what is said about him, that he began to use the Arnor-stone many years before 3019, and earlier than Saruman ventured or thought it useful to use the Stone of Orthanc.



And...




> but it seems fairly plain that he had _at once_ turned to the stone as soon as he came to power, having long studied the matter of the _palantiri_ and the traditions regarding them and their use preserved in the special archives of the Stewards, available beside the Ruling Steward only to his heir.


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## HLGStrider (Jul 22, 2003)

Horay! Love it when I am backed up by quotes.

It's been a long time since I read that.

Aragorn has the most right, and that's why he conquers!

Anyway, what were we talking about?

Oh Saruman. . .Elgee sinks into the background.


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## Flammifer (Jul 22, 2003)

*Tips hat*

Your theory was the better HLG! And good work Mithrandread for the research!


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## HLGStrider (Jul 23, 2003)

Yes, I wish I had the stanima to drag up quotes, but I am lousy at it. . .I have to hold my copy open and stare at it while typing one handed because one hand is holding the copy open. Tiresome.


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## Mithrandread (Jul 23, 2003)

Its pretty tiring for me as well, but, I tend to be obsessive and methodical by nature. I try to keep them short because it takes me a long time to post, even if it's a short one.


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## Beleg (Jul 23, 2003)

Anyone Interested in information about Plantiri should read this excellent thread of Inderjit's


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