# What did Gandalf mean by Gollum's fate might have happened to many Hobbits?



## BalrogRingDestroyer (Sep 30, 2019)

"I think it is a sad story," said the wizard, "and it might have happened to others, even some hobbits that I have known." - Gandalf in The Shadow of the Past.

At first glance, Gollum seems prone to evil in that he seems to fall under the Ring's sway pretty quickly and be led to commit murder in order to get it (interestingly, in the movie version, both he and Deagol fight over it and try and harm each other and Smeagol gets the upper hand and kills Deagol in closer to self-defense.)

On the flip side, while the Nazgul ended up fading completely and falling under the sway of the lesser Great Rings, Smeagol is somehow able to remain a tiny bit himself despite having it 500 years and still managed to have some good left inside of him. So he couldn't have been too inclined to evil if good in him held out that long. 

So would the Ring have seduced most Hobbits and somehow, by dumb luck, the only ones, other than Gollum and Deagol, that encountered the Ring (namely Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, Merry, Pippin, and Fredgar (not sure if he saw it, but he knew about it anyway)) were strongly resistant to its allure?


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## Alcuin (Sep 30, 2019)

Imagine its effect on Lotho Sackville-Baggins or Ted Sandyman the miller’s son. Gandalf knew them, too, as well as many other Hobbits.


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## ArwenStar (Sep 30, 2019)

Uh-huh. Hobbits are strong hearted by nature(mostly). Some are more susceptible than others, though. Sméagol, as far as I know, is a rare type of water hobbit, similar but different as their hair is not as inclined to be as curly, they can be more suspicious, are more inclined to be secretive(that is why they’re not mentioned that much) and of course, are more used to large bodies of water, preferring to live beside them for resources and can swim and boat better than the more common hobbit race eg. Frodo, Bilbo, Sam.
I also believe these hobbits, at least the clan from which Sméagol came from originally, lived somewhere in Eriador, but as a small and hidden and almost quarentend society, were wiped out by a plague or disease... I could go on all day. I do believe, however, that these water hobbits were slightly more susceptible to power. And Sméagol was never an angel in the first place. But all those hobbits in contact of the ring were both strong hearted and good willed, Eg. Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, Merry, Pippin, and Fredgar. But other hobbits eg. Lotho, Ted. Might be a little rotten (for a hobbit) on the inside. And they were both probably manipulated by Saruman, the little bit of hate played like a chess piece.

So to sum up, the nature of the individual hobbit is a major player, and Gandalf did indeed know a lot of hobbits (and dwarves elves and men into the mix).


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## Alcuin (Sep 30, 2019)

The Hobbits of the Marish and Buckland were also “water Hobbits”. They drew their numbers mostly from the old Hobbit tribe of Stoors: Merry and Frodo both knew how to swim and how to handle boats, though Sam was at a loss at both. It would seem that Gollum’s family was also part of this group.


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## ArwenStar (Oct 1, 2019)

Thanks Alcuin I forgot the names of the hobbit sub-races? is that even a word but yes.


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## Olorgando (Oct 1, 2019)

From the Prologue to the LoTR in FoTR:

The Stoors were broader, heavier in build; their feet and hands were larger, and they preferred flat lands and riversides. [And in some letter (?) they are said to be the only hobbits to grow vestiges of beards, though this was hardly more than down.]. They lingered long by the banks of the Great River Anduin, and were less shy of Men. They came west after the Harfoots and followed the course of the Loudwater [Bruinen, with the fords guarding Rivendell] southwards; and there many of them long dwelt between Tharbad and the borders of Dunland before they moved north again

The Harfoots were browner of skin, smaller, and shorter, and they were beardless and bootless; their hands and feet were neat and nimble; and they preferred highlands and hillsides. They had much to do with Dwarves in ancient times, and long lived in the foothills of the mountains. They moved westward early, and roamed over Eriador as far as Weathertop while the others were still in the Wilderland. They were the most normal and representative variety of Hobbit, and far the most numerous. They were the most inclined to settle in one place, and longest preserved their ancestral habit of living in tunnels and holes.

The Fallohides were fairer of skin and also of hair, and they were taller and slimmer than the others; the were lovers of trees and of woodlands. They were the least numerous, and were a northerly branch. They were more friendly with Elves than the other Hobbits were, and had more skill in language and song than in handicrafts; and of old they preferred hunting to tilling. They crossed the mountains north of Rivendell and came down the River Hoarwell. In Eriador they soon mingled with the other kinds that had preceded them, but being somewhat bolder and more adventurous, they were often found as leaders or chieftains among clans of Harfoots and Stoors. Even in Bilbo's time the strong Fallohidish strain could still be noted among the greater families, such as the Tooks and the Masters of Buckland.

From Appendix B in RoTK, Tale of years of the Third Age:

C. 1150
The Fallohides enter Eriador. The Stoors come over the Redhorn Pass [!!! which the Fellowship failed to do, traveling in the opposite direction] and move to the Angle [between the Mitheithel and Bruinen Rivers], or to Dunland.
c. 1300
Evil thing beginn to multiply again. Orcs increase in the Misty Mountains and attack the Dwarves. The Nazgûl reappear [no tombs in the "high fells" here, PJ ! 😛 ]. The chief of these comes north to Angmar. The Periannath migrate westward; many settle at Bree.
1356
King Argeleb [of Arthedain] slain in Battle with Rhudaur [probably by the under the Witch-king's domination]. About this time the Stoors leave the Angle, *and some return to Wilderland.*
…..
2463
… About this time Déagol the Stoor finds the One Ring and is murdered by Sméagol.

Would be a nice twist, consistent with many sayings in LoTR about evil, that though the Witch-king, in a campaign that stretched over about 675 years, was able to destroy all of the northern kingdoms (especially Arthedain), right near the beginning his machinations led to a repopulation of parts of the western banks of the Anduin with just the kind of Hobbits not shy of water, whose finding of the One Ring ultimately doomed Sauron. 😛


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 1, 2019)

Farmer Maggot was a Stoor, if an unusual one.

As ArwenStar points out, Hobbits as a "race" were less susceptible to intimidation than Men, say -- something they shared with Dwarves, if to a lesser degree.

Going OT, I confess I've always been a bit uncomfortable with the class-conscious construction of Hobbit "subgroups", although Tolkien should be forgiven for falling into a trope that has pervaded English culture for centuries. A hobby of mine is playing wargames with miniatures. The early days of the modern era of the hobby were dominated by the British manufacturers, and I recall a review of a line of Medieval figures in an American magazine, in which the reviewer pointed out the (possibly unconscious) use of this mindset on the part of the sculptor: the leaders were of "noble mien", after which the lesser beings seemed to go down the evolutionary scale, until the footsloggers "approach the Australopithecine".

Back on topic, to one of Balrog's questions, there are structural reasons why the other hobbits of the Fellowship aren't affected by the Ring; as I've mentioned elsewhere here, they are the Faithful Followers of romance, who assist the hero in his quest. They may undergo struggles of their own, but these will be different from those he suffers.

And of course, Gollum, being Frodo's dark doppelganger, is appropriately himself a hobbit.

And of course, there are other structural reasons for that, which I won't go into here.


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## Deleted member 12094 (Oct 2, 2019)

ArwenStar said:


> Hobbits are strong hearted by nature(mostly). Some are more susceptible than others, though.



ArwenStar summarizes this well, I think.

The hobbits were particularly resistant to the evil of the Ring, although this was long unknown to the Wise, except for Gandalf maybe, who took an early interest in them:

_"Among the Wise I am the only one that goes in for hobbit-lore: an obscure branch of knowledge, but full of surprises. Soft as butter they can be, and yet sometimes as tough as old tree-roots. I think it likely that some would resist the Rings far longer than most of the Wise would believe."_​
As regards Gollum:



Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Gollum, being Frodo's dark doppelganger, is appropriately himself a hobbit.



That explains he still kept a piece of his mind for himself, despite this long period of dominance by his Ring. As Alcuin mentioned, folks like Lotho Sackville-Baggins or Ted Sandyman were around (not to mention Bill Ferny) but the hobbits' innate resistance was clearly much higher than men and even dwarves. Maybe even more than the highest ranked elves; see Galadriel's long-cherished dream of ever becoming an all-powerful queen (which never became true) and her struggle to set herself free from that fatal temptation:

_‘And now at last it comes. You will give me the Ring freely! In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair!’_​_She lifted up her hand and from the ring that she wore there issued a great light that illumined her alone and left all else dark. She stood before Frodo seeming now tall beyond measurement, and beautiful beyond enduring, terrible and worshipful. Then she let her hand fall, and the light faded, and suddenly she laughed again, and lo! she was shrunken: a slender elf-woman, clad in simple white, whose gentle voice was soft and sad._​_‘I pass the test,’ she said. ‘I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel.’_​
Compare "small" Bilbo to her majesty. He held the Ring a very long time, yet let it go of his own free will, which Gandalf valued greatly:

_For he gave it up in the end of his own accord: an important point. No, I was not troubled about dear Bilbo any more, once he had let the thing go._​


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 2, 2019)

Bill Ferny, being Man, doesn't count, of course, as we know how easily they (we) fell.

Interesting about Hobbits vs Dwarves, though; Bilbo seems to have suffered little, psychically at least, whereas the Dwarves apparently fell prey to their gold-love being turned into an all-consuming obsession. On the other hand, Dwarves could not be made to fade, nor submit to Sauron, something Gandalf clearly feared for Bilbo and Frodo. We've been discussing Gollum here:








The yellow and white faces


Ok. Gollum hates the yellow and white faces (aka sun + moon). Why? Is it beacause he spent 500 years under ground, or just why? And he once or twice called them sun and moon, so why the inconsistency?




www.thetolkienforum.com





As for Galadriel, my impression has always been that she, in her "long pondering", had realized the consequences of gaining the Ring. There was still "a last test to make", to use Gandalf's words, but had one so wise had any real doubt about the outcome, I don't think she would have permitted the Fellowship to enter Lorien.


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## Olorgando (Oct 2, 2019)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> As ArwenStar points out, Hobbits as a "race" were less susceptible to intimidation than Men, say -- something they shared with Dwarves, if to a lesser degree.





Merroe said:


> The hobbits were particularly resistant to the evil of the Ring, although this was long unknown to the Wise, except for Gandalf maybe, who took an early interest in them:
> _"Among the Wise I am the only one that goes in for hobbit-lore: an obscure branch of knowledge, but full of surprises. Soft as butter they can be, and yet sometimes as tough as old tree-roots. I think it likely that some would resist the Rings far longer than most of the Wise would believe."_​


The One Ring had it easiest when the nature of its wearer was already tending towards evil.
Then it seems that if a (potential) wearer already wielded considerable power of some sort, the quick way was to induce delusions of grandeur.
And that is probably something that Hobbits were by *far* the least susceptible to of all humanoid beings of Middle-earth (including the embodied-as-old-men Istari).
Just think of Sam's being tempted by the One Ring in RoTK, Book Six, Chapter I "The Tower of Cirith Ungol", and how he warded it off (just before he entered that tower):

In that hour of trial it was the love of his master that helped him most to hold him firm; but also deep down in him lived still unconquered his plain hobbit-sense: he knew in the core of his heart that he was not large enough to bear such a burden, even if such visions were not a mere cheat to betray him. The one small garden of a free gardener was all his need and due, not a garden swollen to a realm; his own hands to use, not the hands of others to command.​
Here the One Ring was, so to speak, running into a wall head-on and getting lumps for its troubles. I mean, Gollum mostly used it for what? To catch fishesssss! 🤣


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## Alcuin (Oct 2, 2019)

I will also quote Merroe,


Merroe said:


> The hobbits were particularly resistant to the evil of the Ring, although this was long unknown to the Wise, except for Gandalf maybe, who took an early interest in them:
> _"Among the Wise I am the only one that goes in for hobbit-lore: an obscure branch of knowledge, but full of surprises. Soft as butter they can be, and yet sometimes as tough as old tree-roots. I think it likely that some would resist the Rings far longer than most of the Wise would believe."_​


It is worth remembering that Isildur took the Ruling Ring from Sauron’s hand when it was still “_hot as a glede, and [his] hand was scorched, so that [he] doubt[ed] if ever again [he would] be free of the pain of it._” Certainly Isildur was, in Gandalf’s words, “strong [and] well-meaning to begin with,” but the Ring had an immediate effect on him: he would not cast it into Orodruin as Elrond and Círdan urgently urged him to do. Regarding Bilbo, Gandalf told Frodo, “Clearly the ring had an unwholesome power that set to work on its keeper at once.” This was also true in regards to Isildur, who concluded his scroll with the words, “_for my part I will risk no hurt to this thing: of all the works of Sauron the only fair. It is precious to me, though I buy it with great pain._” But he did not live long enough to learn how else it might affect him: when the Ring had the opportunity, it betrayed him and slipped from his finger: else he would have taken it to Elrond in Rivendell, as was his intent; whether he could have summoned the will to surrender it is another matter. (I think he could, but only because he was an exceptional person.) 

In _Letter_ 246, Tolkien wrote,


> In the “Mirror of Galadriel”, … it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. … It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power. But this the Great had well considered and had rejected, as is seen in Elrond's words at the Council. Galadriel's rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve. …



In this vein, it is also good to recall that Rings of Power had been given up before. Celebrimbor gave up the Three to other Eldar, and most likely also the greatest of the Seven (to his friend Durin III), though we might argue that this was only under duress. Círdan possessed and probably used Narya, the Ring of Fire, but gave it to Gandalf when he first arrived in Lindon from Aman. Perhaps we can argue that the Three Rings did not confer possessiveness upon their bearers as did the other “cursed” Rings of Power that Sauron handled or made himself.


Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> And of course, there are other structural reasons for that, which I won't go into here.


*I’d like to learn the “other structural reasons”!* Please.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 2, 2019)

Alcuin said:


> *I’d like to learn the “other structural reasons”!* Please.


I was afraid you'd ask that! 

I'll try to get to it.


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## Olorgando (Oct 2, 2019)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> And of course, there are other structural reasons for that, which I won't go into here.





Alcuin said:


> *I’d like to learn the “other structural reasons”!* Please.





Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I was afraid you'd ask that!
> 
> I'll try to get to it.


Squint-eyed Southerner, ol' man, there are some literary techniques that we mere mortals employ only with some, perhaps a great, degree of hazard.
Reference to "far-off-vistas" and (much) more lurking in the background must count as the most hazardous.  
Or do you have "your Christopher" waiting in the wings to spend the next 46 years elaborating *your* allusions?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 2, 2019)

No, nothing like that -- they have to do with fictional structure itself, not HoME minutiae.


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## Olorgando (Oct 2, 2019)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> No, nothing like that -- they have to do with fictional structure itself, not HoME minutiae.


Oh great, I once again fall into the trap that I nag about myself, obliqueness.

I didn't intend to refer to HoMe or anything that Christopher T or others of similar skills have unearthed, Middle-earth-centric.
What I had intended to refer to are what you refer to as (author-independent) structural stuff.
I believe the name Northrop Frye and his 1957 book "An Anatomy of Criticism", which I only know second-hand by references to him by Tom Shippey in his books, has cropped up at least once in threads we have posted in.
But the writing on such topics could very well dwarf Middle-earth literature, being fundamental?
I'm guessing that at the bottom of many such discussions we would find that classical Greek Aristotle? His writings on what we would call science have been shredded to confetti and blown away by merciful breezes, but he seems to have reached other insights that have held up very well for more than two millennia.


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## grendel (Oct 12, 2019)

Olorgando mentioned Sam, and I have wondered that he was almost completely unaffected by the Ring. He takes the Ring from Frodo when he thought he (Frodo) was dead, wore it for quite awhile while hiding from / following the Orcs, and yet seemed almost eager to give it back to Frodo when he found him alive. One would think the Ring, being right there on the border of Mordor, would be extremely potent and give Sam at least some idea of keeping it for himself, and maybe making Frodo his humble servant. Maybe plain, simple-minded Sam would have been the ideal Ring-Bearer after all.


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## Olorgando (Oct 13, 2019)

grendel said:


> Olorgando mentioned Sam, and I have wondered that he was almost completely unaffected by the Ring. He takes the Ring from Frodo when he thought he (Frodo) was dead, wore it for quite awhile while hiding from / following the Orcs, and yet seemed almost eager to give it back to Frodo when he found him alive. One would think the Ring, being right there on the border of Mordor, would be extremely potent and give Sam at least some idea of keeping it for himself, and maybe making Frodo his humble servant. Maybe plain, simple-minded Sam would have been the ideal Ring-Bearer after all.


Fits with the point I made above, that Hobbits were by *far* the least susceptible to delusions of grandeur. Even Lotho "Pimple" Sackville-Baggins would have at most become a rather more grandiose Gollum, but even he would hardly have started having ideas of "expanding" the borders of the Shire by the ususal methods.
And then Tom Shippey, in his book "The Road to Middle-earth" (third revised and expanded edition 2003), points out something that identifies JRRT as being a distinctively modern writer, despite some of the inane blather voiced by his more myopic critics: the One Ring is "addictive", with all that follows from the term. Gollum had the One Ring for about 478 years; Bilbo for 60, before leaving it to Frodo in 3001 Third Age; when Frodo started his quest in 3018 TA (as per the book), he had had the Ring for exactly 17 years.; Sam had it for a few hours. Shippey also makes the point that as with other forms of addiction, you don't have to try something out to know that it's bad. That is the reason that quite a few characters in LoTR reject the One Ring out of hand. Faramir is a stellar case, unfortunately one where Peter Jackson just totally lost it in the script, turning this part of the story totally on its head to "fulfill" the "needs" of that abominable Hollywood cookie cutter. Contrast to Boromir: he thought the One Ring could be a "quick fix", so he was susceptible to its allure without having ever handled it (in the book). And of course he was enormously more susceptible to the delusions of grandeur trap.


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## ArwenStar (Oct 14, 2019)

Olorgando said:


> Faramir is a stellar case, unfortunately one where Peter Jackson just totally lost it in the script, turning this part of the story totally on its head to "fulfill" the "needs" of that abominable Hollywood cookie cutter.


i definitaly agree with that one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## grendel (Oct 14, 2019)

Olorgando said:


> Faramir is a stellar case, unfortunately one where Peter Jackson just totally lost it in the script, turning this part of the story totally on its head to "fulfill" the "needs" of that abominable Hollywood cookie cutter.


Hear, hear! Quite the most egregious change in the films, along with turning Arwen into Glorfindel.


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## ArwenStar (Oct 17, 2019)

grendel said:


> turning Arwen into Glorfindel.


Exactly. Girls should have a more prominent role in the books (I wish I was one of the fellowship) but that’s no reason to mess up a movie


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## Olorgando (Oct 17, 2019)

grendel said:


> ... along with turning Arwen into Glorfindel.


Erm … true, I haven't watched my DVDs in a while (and yes, my memory also used to be better), but ...
I do still remember that it was Glorfindel who got a "Bruce Jenner" treatment and ended up as Arwen … 
_(I'm having one of those nitpick attacks again … they come and go 🥴 )_


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## Deleted member 12094 (Oct 17, 2019)

grendel said:


> turning Arwen into Glorfindel



When the 9 Nazgûl are coming, ... Elrond sends out his daughter! 😏


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## Olorgando (Oct 17, 2019)

Merroe said:


> When the 9 Nazgûl are coming, ... Elrond sends out his daughter! 😏


_("Creativity" Alert! You may not want to read this while you are eating, or after you have done so …) 🤢_

Well, maybe in PJ's universe, Arwen really had this thing about rings. *Really* bad!
So when daddy says "Oh dear me, those Ring-wraiths seem to be about close to Rivendell" she squeals "You mean I can cop *nine* of those Great Rings in one outing???"
Glorfindel doesn't know what hit him, but anyway Asfaloth, whom he had just made ready for a ride, is gone, and Glorfindel has only very hazy memories of Arwen charging him with a wild look in her eyes and yelling "gimme that nag!".
JRRT "reality check". Sauron had been collecting The Nine and The Seven for a long time. Some of the Dwarven rings have been destroyed by dragons, but he has collected all of The Nine of Men (the dudes are so gone that he can control them even when they no longer wear their GRs). Those R-ws no longer wear their GRs.
Back to PJ fanfic. Arwen has now noticed that those R-ws are not wearing GRs (big disappointment). But she senses that that one of the strange little guy seems to be carrying a seriously more desirable thingy. Grabs him, and heads off to Rivendell. (A P.S..: those R-ws never knew in what "mortal" peril they would have been had they still have been wearing their own GRs. Arwen would have slaughtered the lot, and the whole flood at the Fords of Bruinen thing would have become irrelevant … and a lot of the rest of PJ's films would have been even less like the books than they already were - I mean, Éowyn's big moment becomes irrelevant - W-k is long dead … 😱 )


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## ArwenStar (Oct 20, 2019)

Merroe said:


> When the 9 Nazgûl are coming, ... Elrond sends out his daughter! 😏


Not likely 


Olorgando said:


> when daddy says "Oh dear me, those Ring-wraiths seem to be about close to Rivendell" she squeals "You mean I can cop *nine* of those Great Rings in one outing???"
> Glorfindel doesn't know what hit him, but anyway Asfaloth, whom he had just made ready for a ride, is gone, and Glorfindel has only very hazy memories of Arwen charging him with a wild look in her eyes and yelling "gimme that nag!". ...
> Arwen has now noticed that those R-ws are not wearing GRs (big disappointment). But she senses that that one of the strange little guy seems to be carrying a seriously more desirable thingy. Grabs him, and heads off to Rivendell. (A P.S..: those R-ws never knew in what "mortal" peril they would have been had they still have been wearing their own GRs. Arwen would have slaughtered the lot, and the whole flood at the Fords of Bruinen thing would have become irrelevant …


Exactly... (runs onto LoTR filming set and changes everything up) Much better!


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 15, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I was afraid you'd ask that!
> 
> I'll try to get to it.


I finally got to it, so in the interest of completeness, append it here:









The "Rule of Threes" As a Structural Principle in Tolkien


I'd noticed the occurrence of groups of threes in a casual way, over the years, but a couple of things caused me to take a closer look. One was Douglas Anderson's note on Bilbo's "third time pays for all" in The Annotated Hobbit, where he says it is a Medieval proverb, and gives a quote from a...




www.thetolkienforum.com


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## Northman (Feb 22, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Going OT, I confess I've always been a bit uncomfortable with the class-conscious construction of Hobbit "subgroups", although Tolkien should be forgiven for falling into a trope that has pervaded English culture for centuries.



Um, what evidence do you have that the construction of subgroups of Hobbits were class-conscious? There is no hint of classism between groups that I can recall, only cultural and habitual differences and preferences for certain types of landscape. Is there something in the prologue I am forgetting which alludes to this? If not, to be perfectly honest, this seems like just a bit of an unnecessary, and actually inaccurate dig towards the English. Which brings me to:



> A hobby of mine is playing wargames with miniatures. The early days of the modern era of the hobby were dominated by the British manufacturers, and I recall a review of a line of Medieval figures in an American magazine, in which the reviewer pointed out the (possibly unconscious) use of this mindset on the part of the sculptor: the leaders were of "noble mien", after which the lesser beings seemed to go down the evolutionary scale, until the footsloggers "approach the Australopithecine".



If you don't believe that the aristocrats and rulers of medieval Europe were more pampered and able to cultivate a 'noble mien' as opposed to the peasantry which formed their rank and file, then I don't know what to tell you. That's not a 'trope' of English culture, that's a generally accurate representation of how you might find the armies of the Middle Ages, probably exaggerated for a comedic effect, such as in Games Workshop's output. I must admit this post of yours has triggered me a little, because I have grown increasingly tired of seeing this casual disdain for, and inaccurate impression of English culture growing among American, especially the nerdier types who are exposed to a greater level of narratives. There seems to be this impression that everything the English (and increasingly Europeans in general) did was somehow racist and problematic, despite the truth being quite the opposite, and adherence to this narrative is apparently becoming required to avoid being called nasty names. Thus, I have noticed It has become increasingly fashionable for Americans to seek social validation by decrying something from British, or English past, usually with only a surface level understanding of the matter, which is probably what your reviewer was guilty of. 

Rather than uncovering a problematic English bias, I rather believe you're exposing an American one towards the English.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 23, 2020)

The particular line the reviewer was commenting on was from Essex Miniatures. In retrospect, they all look crude by today's standards, but here a few examples. The nobles:


The "Other Ranks":



The differences were, admittedly, more pronounced in their ads, but my old magazines are boxed up somewhere. I recall a friend's one-word comment, on seeing the foot-sloggers: "Orcs".

As for the hobbit "races", or strains, Olorgando quoted their descriptions from the Prologue, and I'll add this, concerning the Fallohides:

_. . .but being somewhat bolder and more adventurous, they were often found as leaders or chieftains among clans of Harfoots or Stoors. Even in Bilbo's time the strong Fallohidish strain could still be noted among the greater families, such as the Tooks and the Masters of Buckland._

So we see a small aristocracy leading, and essentially ruling, a larger population made up of other strains; it does sound rather like a class system based on "bloodlines", doesn't it? Not that, in the real world, this was by any means limited to England.

A random example in the story: Frodo introduces the party to Barliman Butterbur: 'Mr. Took and Mr. Brandybuck' (both Fallohide), but "plain old 'Sam Gamgee' ". That last is in quotes because it was pointed out in those words as an example of class consciousness by someone who happens to be both a Tolkien fan and the editor of a major English wargames magazine.

Of course, we know Tolkien's own views were more nuanced, but I'll leave it there.


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## Northman (Feb 23, 2020)

LOL those miniatures are pretty funny after all. I can see a difference, for sure, but I'm mainly struck by how they all look fairly Neanderthal in their bearing. Thanks for fishing them out though.



Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> As for the hobbit "races", or strains, Olorgando quoted their descriptions from the Prologue, and I'll add this, concerning the Fallohides:
> 
> _. . .but being somewhat bolder and more adventurous, they were often found as leaders or chieftains among clans of Harfoots or Stoors. Even in Bilbo's time the strong Fallohidish strain could still be noted among the greater families, such as the Tooks and the Masters of Buckland._
> 
> So we see a small aristocracy leading, and essentially ruling, a larger population made up of other strains; it does sound rather like a class system based on "bloodlines", doesn't it?


I have to admit, I think that's quite a stretch. Being bold and adventurous is pretty much where most leaders come from; if one group had a propensity towards this type of behavior, it doesn't seem strange to me that they would sometimes be looked-up to even by other groups, in this way. Also, individuals becoming leaders is not the same as one group ruling over another, which is what classism would conjure. There is no indication that all the Fallohides, as a group, sat in rule over the Stoors, or reduced them to serfs in the manner you're recalling.

For instance, let's take a real-world example,of the general mingling of Angles, Saxons and Jutes which came to form the English (at least, the Wessex side of things). Let's say, for the sake of argument, that it was the Angles who were the most bold and adventurous, and they were often found as leaders among the clans of Jutes and Saxons too. You wouldn't then say that the Angles were ruling over the Jutes and Saxons, would you? You would just noted that there is a strain of one group which seems to end up being admired or validated by all the groups, resulting in a general mingling of stock. That's precisely how it is with the Hobbits, as described by your quote. 

An aristocracy, by contrast, is a series of particular families who literally do rule over the peasantry. Typically, this is achieved through conquest, not simple mingling of stock. The aristocracies of various periods of English history, for instance, were nearly always established by an invading force, be it the Romans, the Anglo-Saxons or the Normans. Whatever was there before is displaced or subjugated into a new ruling hierarchy. Again, this is simply not present in the history of the Hobbits as given to us by the Professor, and he even takes pains to point out that no Hobbits, of any kind, had ever been warlike.



> A random example in the story: Frodo introduces the party to Barliman Butterbur: 'Mr. Took and Mr. Brandybuck' (both Fallohide), but "plain old 'Sam Gamgee' ". That last is in quotes because it was pointed out in those words as an example of class consciousness by someone who happens to be both a Tolkien fan and the editor of a major English wargames magazine.


That credential isn't as impressive to me as it might be to others, and I feel quite confident in my own ability to assess these things, and I find nothing at all to support that person's suggestion. Sam Gamgee is introduced according to his station, as Frodo's gardener (and equivalent to batman, as others have pointed out). That's not an indication that he's considered to be of a lesser genetic caste among the Hobbits, or that the division of Hobbit clans was one of classism. In fact, notice how Sam's father, Ham, is never referred to by name by another Hobbit, nor even called Mr. Gamgee, but instead is known as 'Gaffer', which is a term meaning 'boss/foreman', or a reference to a respected old man. There seems to be no indication that anyone around him looks down upon him for not being Fallohide, I find that suggestion absurd, to be honest with you, no matter whether or not it's coming from a magazine editor, and to be wholly contrary to what we actually know about the structure of Hobbit society.


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## joshuaholmes42303 (Feb 24, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Farmer Maggot was a Stoor, if an unusual one.
> 
> As ArwenStar points out, Hobbits as a "race" were less susceptible to intimidation than Men, say -- something they shared with Dwarves, if to a lesser degree.
> 
> ...


He is not really a hobbit but is more closely related to the brandybucks. But not a hobbit.



ArwenStar said:


> i definitaly agree with that one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I was surprised that bilbo wrote that. it was almost fitting. It was revealed he was hiding his real identity. His crowning proves that he does indeed glitter when he choses not to hide his identity.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 24, 2020)

Welcome to the forum, Joshuaholmes! 
But no Men lived in the Shire. Definitely hobbit.


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## joshuaholmes42303 (Feb 24, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> l


i never said men and you are forgeting the north kingdom

plus men aren't related to brandybucks


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 24, 2020)

Northman said:


> notice how Sam's father, Ham, is never referred to by name by another Hobbit


_Bilbo was very polite to him, calling him 'Master Hamfast'. . ._
Page 2 of Fellowship

_'I am very sorry, Mr. Gamgee,' said Frodo.
'Perfect satisfaction, Mr. Gamgee,' said Frodo._
The Scouring of the Shire


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 24, 2020)

I'm not sure of your meaning, Joshua; are you saying the Brandybucks weren't hobbits?


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## Olorgando (Feb 24, 2020)

Gollum was of the Stoors (thus related to the Hobbits living near the Brandywine River, like Farmer Maggot), those that returned east over the Misty Mountains and settled where their ancestors might once have done so, and thus without the slightest doubt a Hobbit. The Brandybucks (also without the slightest doubt Hobbits) might have had quite a bit of Fallohide blood in them, as did practically all leading Hobbit families or clans, but would still probably retain a certain Stoor background, as their affinity with water shows. In that sense Gollum would have had a (very distant) relationship with the Brandybucks.


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## joshuaholmes42303 (Feb 25, 2020)

Eactly not a hobbit but closlesly related.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 25, 2020)

Well, it's an interesting speculation, but I'll still take Tolkien as the definitive authority.


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## Olorgando (Feb 25, 2020)

joshuaholmes42303 said:


> Eactly not a hobbit but closlesly related.


Gollum in his ruined state after having been in the possession of the One Ring from about 2463 Third Age (Appendix B in RoTK) to 2941 TA (when Bilbo in TH found the One Ring), or for 478 years, would not have been recognized as a Hobbit in origin by any but the most perceptive (like Gandalf). But he unequivocally was a Hobbit, a Stoor. "Closely related" can only refer to the general relationship between the three branches of Hobbits, that all Stoors were closely related to the Harfoots and the Fallohides, as were the Harfoots to the Fallohides. All were Hobbits, including Gollum.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 25, 2020)

And Farmer Maggot.


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## Aramarien (Feb 28, 2020)

Galadriel said to Frodo in "The Mirror of Galadriel" [FOTR], " Did not Gandalf tell you that the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor? Before you could use that power you would need to become far stronger, and to* train your will to the domination of others*." 

Although, as discussed in the above thread, it depends on the hobbit's personality, most hobbits don't seem to be looking for power or domination of others. Even Gollum realized this, when he had the inner debate of Smeagol and Gollum in the Passage of the Marshes. 
"Perhaps we grows very strong, stronger than Wraiths. Lord Smeagol? Gollum the Great? THE Gollum? Eat fish every day, three times a day, fresh from the sea...." Later, Gollum focuses more on revenge," make every one pay!" Ironically, that is what Sam says to Galadriel, and she replies, " That is how it would begin. But it would not stop at that, alas!"

Sam has fantasies of grandeur also when he has the ring. He pictures himself as Samwise the Strong, Hero of the Age, overthrowing Barud Dur and transforming Gorgorath into a garden of trees and flowers. 

But these illusions are not really a lust for power per se, but almost like wishes one would granted to them via a magical source. Not a desire for power over others. 

What Frodo felt, was never revealed, but I'm sure he had many inner struggles the closer he got to Mordor. 

As Sam stepped into Mordor, even though he was not wearing the ring, "As it drew near the great furnaces where, int the deeps of time, it had been shaped and forged, the Ring's power grew, and it became more fell, untameable save by some mighty will." I wonder if Sam feeling this power suddenly may be like the old saying of the frog and the boiling water: If a frog is thrown into a pot of boiling water, it will jump out immediately to save itself. However, if a frog is put into a pot of cold water and it is slowly heated, it will boil to death. 
Sam was thrown suddenly into the boiling water and was able to immediately see the danger of the Ring. Frodo, was slowly tortured as the Ring grew stronger and stronger every step toward Mordor.


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## BalrogRingDestroyer (Mar 3, 2020)

Sam did wear the Ring at the end of The Two Towers. It enhanced some of his abilities.


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## Olorgando (Mar 4, 2020)

BalrogRingDestroyer said:


> Sam did wear the Ring at the end of The Two Towers. It enhanced some of his abilities.


Yes he did, but JRRT made a point of it being in situations while he was still "shielded" from direct line-of-sight from Barad-dûr. It enhanced (very noticeably) his sense of hearing, while cutting down his sense of sight somewhat.
As to Aramarien's post, yes, Sam was only exposed to the One Ring's effects for a very short time (and still it managed to give him some delusions of grandeur when he stepped "into Mordor", which I would take as being hypothetically visible line-of-sight from Barad-dûr). I think here we must take into account one of Tom Shippey's most salient points about the One Ring: it is addictive.


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