# Arwen's death



## Galadhwen (Jul 29, 2002)

In the Appendixes to TLOTR Aragorn asks if Arwen wants to take her oath back, she says even if she wanted to she had no way to get to the West, the havens were deserted. Legolas sailed after Aragorn's death didn't he? Why couldn't Arwen have gone with them? Does anyone have an idea? It's bugged me since I read it and there's probobly a really simple explanation for this! 

Cheers all
C ya


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## Darth Saruman (Jul 29, 2002)

She didn't *want* to go with them. She was a queen, a woman in power, and she probably loved Aragorn very much.


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## Galadhwen (Jul 29, 2002)

Cheers, Darth Saruman, guess you're right bout her loving him a lot, suppose she wouldn't have made the oath in the first place if she didn't want to go through with it- but taking back the oath could have let her see her mother again and maybe patch things up with Elrond, unless pride was also an issue in that and so wouldn't go back on purpose. Or maybe worried bout Gimli? Afterall is kin to Galadriel!


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## Gamil Zirak (Jul 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Galadhwen _
> *Or maybe worried bout Gimli? Afterall is kin to Galadriel!  *


What do you mean by that?


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## Galadhwen (Jul 29, 2002)

I know Arwen and Galadriel are totaly different but doesn't Gimli sort of fall for the Lady of Lorien? I think he says to Eomer that Galadriel is most beautiful at dawn and Evenstar at night. If Arwen knew maybe didn't want to hear Gimli singing/serenading on the long wave West. Bad I know. Have you read Cassie Clair's v secret diaries? They totaly take the mick but are hilarious- sort of mention Gimli's "Suposed" feelings... also have idea for musical of the Silmarilion


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## Maeglin (Jul 29, 2002)

I think she just love Aragorn so much that she just didn't want to leave with Legolas and Gimli if she could have because she didn't want to live without Aragorn.


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## Grond (Jul 29, 2002)

> _From Appendix A (v) of the Lord of the Rings, HERE FOLLOWS A PART OF THE TALE OF ARAGORN AND ARWEN_
> "I speak no comfort to you, for there is no comfort for such pain within the circles of the world. The uttermost choice is before you: to repent and go to the Havens and bear away into the West the memory of our days together that shall there be evergreen but never more than memory; or else to abide the Doom of Men."
> 
> "Nay, dear lord," she said, "*that choice is long over. There is now no ship that would bear me hence, and I must indeed abide the Doom of Men, whether I will on I nill: the loss and the silence.* But I say to you, King of the Númenoreans, not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but i pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive."
> ...


It would appear that she had resolved herself to accept the Doom of Man as is befitting of the nobility of the line of Earendil... to keep her word and honouring her oath to Aragorn. That story brings me to tears every time I read it.


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## HLGStrider (Jul 29, 2002)

Arwen was now a member of humanity. I think that what she meant by that no ship would bear her was that no ship would take her as a human. She could not take her elven hood back. Though I truly doubt they would've turned her back, she would've just eventually died... maybe before reaching her land considering she died not long after Aragorn.

I always saw Aragorn's offer as regret that he had "destroyed" the woman he loved, taking her into the doom of man, perhaps a last ditch effort to save her. Aragorn loved Arwen deeply and it was very much returned. He knew it was time to face his death, but to see what he loved most die because of her love for him was probably hard for him to bear.


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## indexerkevin (Aug 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> *Arwen .... She could not take her elven hood back. Though I truly doubt they would've turned her back, she would've just eventually died... maybe before reaching her land considering she died not long after Aragorn.
> 
> .... He knew it was time to face his death, but to see what he loved most die because of her love for him was probably hard for him to bear. *




Yes I think you are right on the first line. She was given an irrevocable choice, as daughter of Elrond of the race of Half-Elven, to choose between the kinds. She made her choice on the hill in Lothlorien when she pledged to reject both the Shadow and the Twilight, and there was no turning back. I don't interpret "what ship would bear me hence" to mean the Havens are no longer there, just that no ship would allow her to board. I get an overall impression that every spot in every ship ever built by Cirdan and his shipwrights is reserved. There's no such thing as "buying a ticket at the gate!" After the downfall of Numenor, the Undying Lands can be reached only by sailing the "Straight Road." My impression is only Elven ships bearing those with the grace to return can make the trip.

The sons of E apparently choose to stay as man-like since they don't return with Elrond, in fact Celeborn lives for a time in Rivendell with them after Galadriel splits. 

Remember the words of Celeborn to Aragorn when King Elessar goes back as far as the Gap of Rohan with the Fair Company after his wedding. "May you not live to see your treasure taken from you" or something to that effect. By going as he does, Aragorn accomplishes this.

Grond, mark me too among those who can't bear the pain of that passage you quoted... The whole thing has led to a lot of thinking about the nature of what Aragorn actually does and the Doom of Man. While first I thought the passage was expressing in very muted terms a suicide, I don't think it's that simple. Apparently in the days of old the Kings of Numenor were given the grace to give up their lives on their own time and scenes like the one with Aragorn was commonly how the King left the world. Only during the downfall when they began to fear death more did some kings start to reject the notion of giving up their life with grace and fight it, one king being described as refusing to give it up until it was taken from him in his dotardness.

It is my understanding that part of the downfall of Numenor was their coming to doubt the idea that the Gift of Man was really a gift after all. And that the development of the notion that it was a bad thing, the Doom of Man, was a big part of their downfall. I may decide to start a new thread on this topic of the Gift/Doom of Man, after I make sure one doesn't already exist. I believe that mortality is a gift after all and not a doom when the full ball of wax of what Men can look forward to versus Elves is understood.


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## HLGStrider (Aug 2, 2002)

I always believed that there was a Heaven of sorts that Aragorn went to.. It is sad though that the elves have a seperate after life...


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## indexerkevin (Aug 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Galadhwen _
> * I think [Gimli] he says to Eomer that Galadriel is most beautiful at dawn and Evenstar at night. *



Gimli says to Eomer: 
"You have chosen the Evening; but my love is given to the Morning. And my heart forebodes that it will soon pass away forever."

Galdhwen, yours is an interesting interpretation but I don't get that from Gimli's quote. Rather I think what Gimli's getting at is that Galadriel is the most beautiful Elven-maid of the Morning of the elves, the Early Days, while Arwen the most beautiful for the Evening of her people, their Latter Days on Middle Earth. Their physical appearance mirrors this: Galadriel is golden haired like a sunny day, while Arwen with her dark hair captures the beauty of a starlit night. In a similar way is Venus both the Morning Star and the Evening Star. The first is beautiful at dawn, the second at twilight.


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## indexerkevin (Aug 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> *I always believed that there was a Heaven of sorts that Aragorn went to.. It is sad though that the elves have a seperate after life... *



Maybe I won't have to start another thread after all because this is the key point. I think you're right and that the "Gift of Man" is the very fact that after death they are promised sort of a Heaven after the end of the world, but the Elves are tied to the existence of the world and are out of luck after its end. It's my understanding that this is how the Gift of Men was first presented to them by the Valar, and that it wasn't until they began to lose faith in, and hope for the existence of this "life after the end of the world" that they began to fear death rather than give up their lives gracefully like the Kings during the glory of Numenor, and as Elessar did. In this apparently Melkor and later Sauron played a role in terms of leading men to misview the "Gift of Men" as being the "Doom of Men."


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## Gil-Galad (Aug 3, 2002)

Well..sometimes even elves do stupid things because of true love.It's hard to believe that an elf can do such thing but it's a fact.And when the facts are "talking"even the Gods are silent.


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## HLGStrider (Aug 3, 2002)

I personally do not see Arwen's decision as a stupid one. She chose to become human. If she hadn't have she would never have seen Aragorn again. However, now she never will see her father again. She had a clear cut choice between father and lover and she chose lover...


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## Gil-Galad (Aug 3, 2002)

HLGStrider,I wrote the previous post with a bit of sarcasm but such "stupid" things always cause great things later.Just remember Tuor and his son Earendil.


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## HLGStrider (Aug 3, 2002)

Vaguely...

I kind of knew you weren't being too serious... I just had to jump in in defense of the world's romantics.


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## Gil-Galad (Aug 3, 2002)

You really shoud cause nobody from them try to defense theirselves.....


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## Eol (Aug 5, 2002)

*Death*

The difference between elves and men in death was this. A human would die, and their spirit would leave the circles of the world, to rejoin Illuvatar. With the elves, their spirits were sent to the halls of Mandos, there to wait until they can be reborn. Their spirits are not free to join with Illuvatar until the End. That is why the elves are so connected to this world. They are bound to it unlike men, who they look on as mere visitors.

The half-elven were given the choice to be counted as elven or human. Elrond chose to be of elven kind and his children were allowed the same choice. But his brother Elros chose to be counted among men and became the first King of Numenor (and so were Elrond and Aragorn distantly related). So once you chose mortality, you could not change your mind. Arwen chose to be human and marry Elessar, and once done she could not sail to the west. No one would take her. And when she died her spirit left the world, just as Luthien's had before her.

As for Gimli being allowed to sail into the west, that is a different matter. The dwarves were not created by Illuvator, but by the Vala Aule. Illuvator allowed them to exist, but they too are bound within the world like the elves, yet in death they are kept separate from the elves. Supposedly in the End they will labor with Aule to rebuild the world.

Eol


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## HLGStrider (Aug 6, 2002)

I can't remember hearing that labor to rebuild the world theory anywhere, but it does sound both plausible and familiar.... Where'd you read it?


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## Eol (Aug 6, 2002)

Do you mean the part about the dwarves? It is in the Silmarillion. Off hand I can't remember if it is stated in the section about their origins or in another part, but I can check. The only thing that is never made clear is how hobbits and some other races are treated.

I imagine Hobbits are a man offshoot and therefore die as men do. But what about orcs? They are descended from elves, so does Mandos have some special place for them? Or do they not have a spirit? (Or maybe in death they become civil servants like a la Beetlejuice? )

Eol


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## Lantarion (Aug 6, 2002)

NOTE: the same thing happened with Beren and Lúthien.

PS: It's *Ilúvatar*, with ONE 'L'!!! NOT 'Illuvatar', or 'Illuvator'!!


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## pohuist (Aug 6, 2002)

*Re: Death*



> _Originally posted by Eol _
> *.
> 
> As for Gimli being allowed to sail into the west, that is a different matter. The dwarves were not created by Illuvator, but by the Vala Aule. Illuvator allowed them to exist, but they too are bound within the world like the elves, yet in death they are kept separate from the elves. Supposedly in the End they will labor with Aule to rebuild the world. *



I believe Gimli was allowed to sail into the West and not become bound with the world for his part in the War of the Ring, b/c he became a messenger of peace b/w the dwarves and the elves, and on request from Galadriel


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## Theoden (Aug 6, 2002)

She was a human by oath
And she had given her place in Valenor to Frodo
So... she was doomed to die and fallow her husband.
Plain and simple
-me


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## Eol (Aug 6, 2002)

Yes, he (Gimli) was allowed to sail into the west for his part in the war and on the good word of the Lady Galadriel. My point is being a dwarf helped. Had he been a man he never would have been allowed in.

Eol


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## Theoden (Aug 6, 2002)

It is my personal idea that all creatures of ME could go to Valenor accept men. well, maybe orcs and belrogs were exempt, but it seems to me that either it was that men were punished and not allowed to go, or that there was a sort of "heaven" prepaired solely for them and that only by death could they enter go there. Any comments?


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## HLGStrider (Aug 6, 2002)

Just that I can't remember any one great thing men were being punished for... I personally think they were always like that in Tolkien.


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## Eol (Aug 6, 2002)

Death was the "gift" of Iluvatar to men. I discussed the different deaths in my earlier post.

Eol


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## HLGStrider (Aug 6, 2002)

It must get incredibly old being an elf after awhile...

Anyway, I wonder what the human after life, or heaven, is like in Middle Earth... they don't exactly have a holy book that tells them...


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## Grond (Aug 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> *It must get incredibly old being an elf after awhile...
> 
> Anyway, I wonder what the human after life, or heaven, is like in Middle Earth... they don't exactly have a holy book that tells them... *


Well, actually my own Holy Book doesn't give me a whole lot of insight into what I can expect from heaven. I know who I'll be with, but actually the Bible doesn't really give any great descriptions of exactly how I'll be spending eternity. (That is if I make it to the house above and don't find myself sent to the house below. )


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## Lantarion (Aug 7, 2002)

"Hmm, let's see: 'Hammer of the Underworld'? Down ye go, laddy!" 
(I hope He doesn't say that, though)


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## Galadhwen (Aug 7, 2002)

So how were hobbits allowed 2 go to the Undying Lands? They were closer related to men than elves. If it was because of their part in the War of the Ring then surley men could go as well-Aragorn did a great deal in the War. Hang on didn't Earendil get to go into the West? He was a mortal, I know he had a Silmaril but wouldn't an elf, an ex-elf and the elfstone help?


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## Gamil Zirak (Aug 7, 2002)

They were allowed to go so that their wounds from bearing the one ring could be healed. They weren't given moratality or anything like that.


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## pohuist (Aug 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Galadhwen _
> *So how were hobbits allowed 2 go to the Undying Lands? They were closer related to men than elves. If it was because of their part in the War of the Ring then surley men could go as well-Aragorn did a great deal in the War. *



They didn't go to Valinor (if I remember correctly). They found themself in a place from where they could see Valinor, but not there. (More like a Purgatory of sorts) The reason, probably wasn't their part in the War, but b/c wearing the Ring made them immortal (Bilbo didn't do much in the War of the Rings, but he got to go too).
But on a general question whether or not mortals could go, surely Iluvatar could make exceptions for specific folks. Eol, I don't think being a dwarf necessarily helped Gimli (except that he left behind the elf/dwarf enmity), but I believe that's not a meaning you imply.


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## Grond (Aug 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Galadhwen _
> *So how were hobbits allowed 2 go to the Undying Lands? They were closer related to men than elves. If it was because of their part in the War of the Ring then surley men could go as well-Aragorn did a great deal in the War. Hang on didn't Earendil get to go into the West? He was a mortal, I know he had a Silmaril but wouldn't an elf, an ex-elf and the elfstone help? *


The only descendants of Man ever allowed to go to Aman were Earendil and the Ring-bearers. Gimli was a dwarf and their fate is not the same as man. I doubt that any other dwarf ever desired to see the Undying Lands. As it states in the Appendix,


> _from The Return of the King, Appendix A, III Durin's Folk,_
> We have heard tell that Legolas took Gimli Glóin's son with him because of their great friendship, greater than any that has been between Elf and Dwarf. *If this is true then it is strange indeed; that a Dwarf should be willing to leave Middle-earth for any love,* or that the Eldar should receive him, or that the Lords of the West should permit it. But it is said that Gimli went also out of desire to see again the beauty of Galadriel; and it may be the she, being might among the Eldar, obtained this grace for him. More cannot be said of this matter.[/b]


Also, as Gamil Zirak so aptly points out, the Hobbits were not granted immortality, they were simply allowed to spend the end of their days in a land free of illness and pestilence. Their bodies would still age, but they would eventually die of old age and not from an injury or wound.

pohuist, the author makes it very clear that mortals who went to Valinor would remain mortal. They would be free from pain and suffering but would die.


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## pohuist (Aug 7, 2002)

I guess I stand corrected (I made a disclaimer though, that I was posting based on memory). Wouldn't however, the Ring prolonged a hobbit's (and Gollum's) life so much that they will become as long-lived as elves -- who also eventually die, although from different reason. My understanding is that elves become weary of this world i.e. they sort of die spiritually, while the hobbits will die b/c their body will eventually (albeit after a very long while) will run out of fuel.


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## Grond (Aug 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by pohuist _
> *I guess I stand corrected (I made a disclaimer though, that I was posting based on memory). Wouldn't however, the Ring prolonged a hobbit's (and Gollum's) life so much that they will become as long-lived as elves -- who also eventually die, although from different reason. My understanding is that elves become weary of this world i.e. they sort of die spiritually, while the hobbits will die b/c their body will eventually (albeit after a very long while) will run out of fuel. *


I'll look up the relevant quotes from (I believe) the Letters and HoMe tonight and post them tomorrow. The author pretty well explains what will happen to the Hobbits in Aman.


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## pohuist (Aug 7, 2002)

I have neither source in my possession. Awaiting anxiously


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## Galadhwen (Aug 8, 2002)

Thanks people!


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## Gamil Zirak (Aug 9, 2002)

The ring only infers imoratility if you wear it long enough to become a wraith like the Nazgul.


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