# Why didn't the Eagles take the ring to Mordor?



## Arathorn (Mar 5, 2002)

As suggested in another thread, why didn't Gandalf have the eagles carry Frodo to Mt. Doom and just drop the ring in?


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## Harad (Mar 5, 2002)

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1705&highlight=Eagles

Not suprisingly this has been discussed in the above thread and in a thread referenced in the above thread.

The bottom line answer is:

Because LOTR would have been a pamphlet instead of a 1000-page book.


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## Snaga (Mar 5, 2002)

What risk the One near an eagle? Imagine the poor birdies, lusting for the ring, and pecking away at Frodo to get it. 'In place of the Dark Lord you would set up a Pterodactyl'


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## Harad (Mar 5, 2002)

I can see it now, a combination of "Rodan" and "LOTR." All the crebain would be promoted to important jobs. Cheep thrills.


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## aragil (Mar 5, 2002)

Forget the risk to the Ring. What about the risk to the Eagles. Sauron had Balrogs patrolling the air around Mordor with their Surface-to-Air Whips (SAWs). Why needlessly sacrifice some Eagles when the ring could be so much more efficiently carried by Hobbits?


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## Harad (Mar 5, 2002)

Wait...Flying Balrogs. Balrogs on Wing-ed Steeds or Wing-ed Their Own Selves? Either way the answer is:

We'd go in low....right above the corn fields..no way those Russkies'll stop us.


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## Snaga (Mar 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Harad _
> *Wait...Flying Balrogs. Balrogs on Wing-ed Steeds or Wing-ed Their Own Selves? *


Don't even go there!


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## HLGStrider (Mar 5, 2002)

Another discussion to make my day... 

It was like the other day, my little brother was walking up on the place (What we rural folks call our lil' parcel of land...) and comes back with the bold announcment... "I watched a dog fight!!!" We were all pretty confused while he described this air combat to us... Finally we got out of him that the combatants were a red tailed hawk and a turkey vulture...

Anyway, sensibly, it would be a little risky. The eagle gets shot down by anti-eagle guns or arrows... you pick your projectile, and the ring bearer has to bail out in enemy territory...


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## Harad (Mar 5, 2002)

> Anyway, sensibly, it would be a little risky



I can accept a lot, but when you say "sensibly"...

The Eagles pretty much had the run of the air. No dogfights for them. No one interfered with Gwaihir saving Gandalf from Orthanc or from the peak of Moria. 

Mordor did not have a tight Air Cap, especially before the Nazgul got their Wing-ed Steeds. Fly at Night, Come in Low, and the Mission to Doom, would go like Slim Pickens. Yahoo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## aragil (Mar 5, 2002)

I believe Slim said 'Yee-haw'. Like any self respecting man in a cowboy hat would have done.


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## HLGStrider (Mar 5, 2002)

Okay... I always assumed that there would be some defense against everything... including eagles.. And me using the word sensibly or logically is always a mistake... I wish I could find all the quotes I've made on this thread that explains why...

for instance... "I may be a child but that's no reason to treat me like one..." 

That was one of my opening statements...

You better start being nice to me though, Harad, because if you don't I won't give you a cabinet position when I'm president!


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## Dhôn-Buri-Dhôn (Mar 5, 2002)

Wing-ed Balrogs? Nah.

Just station them in the mountains. Those fire whips could take out an Eagle at 30,000 feet, no prob.


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## aragil (Mar 5, 2002)

'Fly you fools. I mean it literally this time.'
-Gandalf as his Eagle-mount is downed by a SAW.


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## Eonwe (Mar 5, 2002)

what would have been even more plausible would be the Nazgul on wings, terrorizing the Shire, swooping over the lands East of Bree looking for Frodo. What a different book it would have been.

How far can an Eagle fly without resting or eating? Could they carry someone from say Minas Tirith to Orodruin about 120 miles away without resting? I mean, how far can an unladen swallow travel?


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## Quercus (Mar 5, 2002)

What? African or European?


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## Harad (Mar 5, 2002)

Are you implying that coconuts are migratory?


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## daisy (Mar 5, 2002)

Uh eonwe, I think the last thing Tolkien was thinking as he figured out which flying creature was going to do what with hairy footed hobbits and elves and dwarves etc. was whether eagles can fly really really far!


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## Bill the Pony (Mar 5, 2002)

Daisy, are you sure? Gandalf certainly worries about it when he's rescued from Orthanc:



> "How far can you bear me? " I said to Gwaihir.
> ` "Many leagues," said he, "but not to the ends of the earth. I was sent to bear tidings not burdens."


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## Eonwe (Mar 5, 2002)

I like how Gandalf talks to the moth on top of Orthanc:

Tickootiskcioojwosojoititkosi (releases moth)

Translation:

"Get Gwaihir. Don't be confused by the Moon. Beat it!"


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## Beleg Strongbow (Mar 5, 2002)

Why didn't gandalf conjure up a nuclear bomb drop it on sauron and then run in and destroy the ring.lol. Well frodo couldn't drop it right and also gandalf might have ment that to happen but he was lost remember.


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## Arathorn (Mar 6, 2002)

Obviously the eagles could fly to Mt. Doom, because they flew there to pick up Frodo and Sam after the ring was destroyed. I believe Harad is correct that the reason the eagles didn't do it is that there would be no story if they did. 

Nevertheless, it seems to me to be a flaw in the story. Unless Middle-earth was populated by idiots, it is logical that someone would have said something like, "Hey, Gandalf, the eagle carried you away from Orthanc, let's see if the eagles would help us in the quest to destroy the ring."


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## Quercus (Mar 6, 2002)

Yes, but it seems that the eagles (at least Gwaihir) always come to the rescue just in the nick of time. Perhaps things just weren't urgent enough yet.


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## aragil (Mar 6, 2002)

Landroval: 'Lord Gwaihir, the Ringbearer has been bitten by Shelob, and is about to be captured by Orcs.'
Gwaihir: 'Let's hold on a moment. I want to see where this is going.'


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## Eonwe (Mar 6, 2002)

you just made me laugh out loud at work. Stop it.


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## Camille (Mar 6, 2002)

funny what you said!!
May be the eagles didnt want to get involved: 
How far can you bear me? " said to Gwaihir. 
` "Many leagues," said he, "but not to the ends of the earth. I was sent to bear tidings not burdens."


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## Beleg Strongbow (Mar 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Camille _
> *funny what you said!!
> May be the eagles didnt want to get involved:
> How far can you bear me? " said to Gwaihir.
> ` "Many leagues," said he, "but not to the ends of the earth. I was sent to bear tidings not burdens." *




yes they wouldn't be able to take them the whole way. And maybe gandalf was going to meet up with the eagles later. But he fell.


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## LadyGaladriel (Mar 7, 2002)

Most eagles are very cruel as stated in The Hobbit
But The Lord Of The Eagles are ok. 
I think the eagles can only be summon by Galdriel
and also they are friendly with Gandalf


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## HLGStrider (Mar 7, 2002)

I don't think that you can count the last flight to pick up Sam in the same catagory as going to Mordor to destroy the ring... sINCE THE RING had already been destroyed, Sauron was practically gone, and there wasn't much in Mordor that was up and running....

Anyway, what was the migratory cocunut think about, Harad?

They actually do migrate... Iremember reading aboutt how they can fall into the water and float hundreds of miles to their new planting spot... cool, huh?


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## Beleg Strongbow (Mar 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> *I don't think that you can count the last flight to pick up Sam in the same catagory as going to Mordor to destroy the ring... sINCE THE RING had already been destroyed, Sauron was practically gone, and there wasn't much in Mordor that was up and running....
> 
> Anyway, what was the migratory cocunut think about, Harad?
> ...




yea it is
if the reason wasn't urgent enough then what was?? Sauron was about to take over the world and he came so closed to the ring which would make his conquest complete.


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## Harad (Mar 8, 2002)

HLGS,

It turns out that Eagles, or is it swallows, carry coconuts from southern climes to more northernly pursuits. Not only does that provide mother's milk for rutabagas, but also transportation for the Kniggits of the Round Table.


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## Legolam (Mar 8, 2002)

Kniggits?! I like that! 

I read somewhere that the eagles didn't like to get involved in the "affairs of men". They just liked being all cosy up in their eyries. Plus, when Sauron was destroyed, it was then safe to fly into Mordor as the airspace was free from nasty Nazgul etc.


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## HLGStrider (Mar 8, 2002)

I didn't mean in the same catagory of urgency Beleg, Darling... (Imagine me rolling my r's while reclined on one of those couch thingies from the fourties movies.). I meant in dangerousness. After all, what was there left to fight? The Nazguls were crashing, Saruon was dying, orcs and other bad guys were a tad bit preoccupied... Etc.


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## Harad (Mar 9, 2002)

But there was only a short period when the Nazgul were airborne: shortly after the Council of Elrond--the time it took their de-horsed spirits to return to Mordor and get wing-ed steeds--and the Fall of Barad-dur. Before and after the skys were clear of all except for the Evil Pigeons.


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## Legolam (Mar 9, 2002)

Well, evil pigeons must be scary to big old eagles ...


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## Legolas_The Elf (Mar 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Eonwe _
> *what would have been even more plausible would be the Nazgul on wings, terrorizing the Shire, swooping over the lands East of Bree looking for Frodo. What a different book it would have been.
> 
> How far can an Eagle fly without resting or eating? Could they carry someone from say Minas Tirith to Orodruin about 120 miles away without resting? I mean, how far can an unladen swallow travel? *


_________________
The eagles as it is said in THe Hobbit fly only a few kilometers and thats it..I agree they must eat and rest. 
*Legolas_The elf*


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## Alcuin (Mar 21, 2022)

I suppose this is a legitimate section of Tolkien’s interview with the BBC. It’s short: 49 seconds, and if really part of the interview, hilariously funny!


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Mar 21, 2022)

According to the comments, it's fake. But as I said when I posted it in the Joke forum, very clever. 😄


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## Olorgando (Mar 21, 2022)

I'll intrude a few real-world considerations here.

Eagles, in contrast to long-distance migratory birds like ducks, geese and swans (and others) don't like to fly by constantly flapping their wings. Like smaller birds of prey, and the larger carrion-feeders, the vultures, the very much prefer to soar on updraft currents. That means daytime flying, they really don't do much if anything at night. Then don't forget that when Frodo and Sam first looked down on the plateau of Gorgoroth after escaping from the Tower of Cirith Ungol, it was swarming with Sauron's forces. Sauron only sent them to the Morannon after Aragorn forced him into a change of underwear by wrenching the Orthanc Palantir from him. So in an earlier phase, it would probably have taken much less time for Sauron's forces to occupy all entrances to Mount Doom before the Eagles got there. Frodo and Sam were only able to cross a deserted plateau *because* Aragorn had set that bait trap at the Morannon.


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## Rōmānus (Mar 21, 2022)

Arathorn said:


> As suggested in another thread, why didn't Gandalf have the eagles carry Frodo to Mt. Doom and just drop the ring in?


For me this inquiry has always been fairly obvious and I will provide a quote from The Hobbit which also gives a legitimate reason why the eagles would not do it. The eagles are not invincible and they are also quite visible. Going into Mordor and dropping Frodo off would hardly go unnoticed. Then there is the issue of the guards. The eagles can and likely will be attacked either with arrows or spears, or some other projectile. There are even flying mounts that the Ring Wraiths have. The Lord of the Eagles told Thorin and Company why he’d not have their group taken anywhere near where men abided: “‘They would shoot at us with their great bows of yew,’ he said, ‘for they would think we were after their sheep. And at other times they would be right... but we will not risk ourselves for dwarves in the southward plains.’” (The Hobbit, Out of The Frying-Pan Into the Fire) The eagles would not “risk” themselves because they would be harmed, and not even from inhabitants of a heavily fortified place. So the eagles would be visible and could be harmed, or killed if they attempted to bring the Ring to Mount Doom.


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## Will Whitfoot (Mar 21, 2022)

It wasn't their fight, and it was too much to ask. Only after the eagles saw that it was literally "ALL IN" at the battle of the Black Gate would they willingly join in the fight. It is a natural attitude, and you can't really fault them. Nobody WANTS to fight a war, and if you think you can keep to your own and let somebody else do the fighting, there's a strong leaning to do that. But we know that when it really came down to the last and most important battle, the eagles were there. And lucky for Frodo and Sam that they did!


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## Goldilocks Gamgee (Mar 21, 2022)

What do you think the _winged Nazgul who can fly on huge black dragon-like birds _would do, if they saw a couple of Eagles carrying the one thing their mind is focused on, the thing their master - whom they obey heedlessly - wants more than anything else? Oh, of course they would just let the Eagles fly in!


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## Olorgando (Mar 21, 2022)

I'm sure I'm not the only one who has noticed this, but I'll risk a slew of  reactions anyway.

The Eagles (of each relevant period) always seem to arrive to save the day.
Not just at the Black Gate in LoTR;
at the Battle of the Five Armies in TH - though it's Beorn who finally tips the scale with his ferocious attack;
and in the climactic last battle in the War of Wrath before Thangorodrim - here if was Eärendil's dispatching of Ancalagon the Black that decided things.

Whatever JRRT might have thought about 20th-century air forces (very little, as his letters to Christopher, training to be a pilot in South Africa in 1944, indicate), he sure liked to bring in the feathered versions in his Middle-earth tales.


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## Halasían (Mar 22, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> I'm sure I'm not the only one who has noticed this, but I'll risk a slew of  reactions anyway.


 I couldn't give the 'rolleyes' reaction to your post, but didn't want to disappoint. 

I paraphrase what Boromir said ... 'One does not simply call in an airstrike on Mordor' 😅


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## Shadow (Apr 3, 2022)

Especially by the time Gandalf realises Frodo has the ring it‘s a risky proposition to use the Eagles, if they even agreed to the trip. Sauron’s forces were all marshalled by that point and on the lookout.


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## Radaghast (Apr 26, 2022)

I honestly can't believe this is still a question, but it has probably been asked and answered probably millions of times.

Anyway, I like Tolkien's answer to this question:






(Disclaimer: I'm not actually entirely sure that's really Tolkien speaking)


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 26, 2022)

It's not.

Still funny, though.


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## Radaghast (Apr 26, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> It's not.
> 
> Still funny, though.



Yeah, the voice doesn't sound quite like his.

On the same note, it's rather surprising to me that this question doesn't appear in _The Letters_. Maybe readers of that time were generally more intuitive back then


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 26, 2022)

It's discussed in the comments section, too.

There's probably an entire subreddit devoted to it. 😄


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## Radaghast (Apr 26, 2022)

I was requested to answer this question today on Quora, in probably the same wording it's been asked hundreds of times before. 

The question that just...won't...die.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 26, 2022)

Definitely up there with balrog wings.


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## Goldilocks Gamgee (Apr 26, 2022)

I'd say that Eagles to Mordor is above Balrog wings. One of them is a "plot-hole" and the other is just something we don't know.


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## Olorgando (Apr 27, 2022)

Goldilocks Gamgee said:


> I'd say that Eagles to Mordor is above Balrog wings. One of them is a "plot-hole" and the other is just something we don't know.


My guess is that the error in thinking derives from the scene where Eagles arrive at Mount Doom to save Frodo and Sam, so why wouldn't hey have been able to ...

HUGE difference.

When the Eagles arrived at Mount Doom to rescue Frodo and Sam, the One Ring had been destroyed, Sauron had been permanently de-bodied and rendered impotent, Barad-dûr had fallen into utter ruin, Sauron's forces at the Black gates were destroyed or fleeing, and the plain of Mordor, Gorgoroth, was absolutely deserted of any troops, all of which had been sent to the Black Gate. Compare that to the scene in RoTK, Book Six, chapter II "The Land of Shadow", where Frodo and Sam scrambled up the inner, lower mountain range in western Mordor:

"Frodo and Sam gazed out in mingled loathing and wonder on this hateful land. Between them and the smoking mountain, and about it north and south, all seemed ruinous and dead, a desert burned and choked. They wondered how the Lord of this realm maintained and fed his slaves and his armies. Yet armies he had. As far as their eyes could reach, along the skirts of the Morgai and away southward, there were camps, some of tents, some ordered like small towns. One of the largest of these was right below them. Barely a mile out into the plain it clustered like some huge nest of insects, with straight dreary streets of huts and long low drab buildings. About it the ground was busy with folk going to and fro; a wide road ran from it south-east to join the Morgul-way, and along it many lines of small black shapes were hurrying."

This was, according to Appendix B, on 16 March 3019 (SR 1419), nine days before the destruction of the One Ring.

When could, at the earliest, the decision to "draft" the Eagles to their "air-freight" assignment have been taken?

At the Council of Elrond on 25 October 3018 (SR 1418). So "Eagle airlines" would have taken off on 26 October? Erm, no way.
There have been enough posts about the Eagles, similar to the Ents, not being on anybody's side (definitely *not* on Sauron's, but ...) as nobody was exactly on *their* side, either. So, how do you contact the "travel agent" for "Eagle airlines"?

Then the distance. On Karen Wynn Fonstad's only map with a scale that shows both Rivendell and Mordor, the distance in a straight line seems to be about 726 miles, or 1,169 kilometers. A cross-check with my copy of Christopher's map in my 2002 hardcover edition of FoTR yields about 717 miles, or 1,154 kilometers.

As I've mentioned above (on page 2 of this thread), in contrast to large migratory birds like ducks, geese and swans, eagles aren't the greatest straight-line continuous fliers. They very much prefer to soar upwards on updrafts of any sort to continuously flapping their huge wings. So how long would they have needed for that distance?

And whom would they have transported? Only Frodo? I personally think not. At least Gandalf, with whom the Eagles had a special relationship indirectly through Radagast, and directly through an incident of his helping the King (Lord?) of the eagles recover from an arrow wound as described in "The Hobbit" would be necessary. A lot of that flight would have been over enemy territory, and there's always the issue of the Nazgûl on their winged fell beasts.

No, there is no "plot-hole", as far as I can see.


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## Lómelindë Lindórië (May 1, 2022)

I don't think the Vala Manwe would have interfered so easily/promptly. It was a test not only for Frodo, but for Galadriel ("_I pass the test. I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel._"), and pretty much everyone, including the Edain and the Eldar in vast numbers. The creation of the One Ring affected the whole of Middle-Earth (I sympathize with the numerous Quendi sailing to Valimar on this one), and it was a test for all. If Manwe had interfered..._well, everything would have been too different, right?_


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (May 4, 2022)

So, to sum up. . .


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## Lómelindë Lindórië (May 4, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> So, to sum up. . .
> View attachment 13003


As one of the Arata now, I fully understand Olórin's feelings here....Mithrandir, you are not the only one!


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