# Dragons (again)



## Mr. Underhill (Jul 18, 2003)

Does anyone know if there's a reference anywhere about Dragons in the Second Age?? They must have been somewhere since both Smaug and Scatha survived until the end of the Third Age. I wonder why Sauron didn't try to use them against Numenor or during the War of the Last Alliance? Would they have served him?? I know Gandalf was worried about an alliance between Smaug and Sauron before Bilbo's adventure. Any thoughts???


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## Beleg (Jul 18, 2003)

We are hinted about the presence of Dragons and their activeness in the second age, 



> and Men dwelt in darkness and were troubled by many evil things that Morgoth had devised in the days of his dominion: demons, and dragons, and mishapen beasts.



*(Akallabêth, SIL p.312)*


Presumably the men troubled would be the people of Rhovinion, living around Northern Mirkwood, Carnen and Celduin. 
And as for the Question of Sauron using them, I wouldn't say that Sauron could use them in his army, as sub-ordinate to himself, for although Sauron is a mighty maia, Dragon's are also mighty creatures and unique in the fact that they possess an inteligence of their own, can speak and are not dettered by light as some of the other dark servants.
The possiblity of Sauron allying with the Dragon's of the North, or using their position to tactical advantage of his is there though. 
I can't buy the idea of Dragon's serving anyone, other then Morgoth, their creator and master.


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## Flame of Udûn (Jul 19, 2003)

> Among many cares he [Gandalf] was troubled by the perilous state of the North. The Dragon Sauron might use to terrible effect. How then could the end of Smaug be achieved?
> _The Lord of the Rings_ Appendix A III _Durin's Folk_


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## Inderjit S (Jul 21, 2003)

_Tale of Years_ (HoME 11) claim that Two Dragons escaped from the War of Wrath at the end of the F.A, though due to the uncertainty about the validity of some of the comments in T.OY I don't know if this was dropped or not I think this was a reference to Fire-Drakes, there may have been quite a few Cold-drakes etc in Withered Heath and north of the Ered Mithrin and the Iron Hills. They were said have assailed the Dwarves for their treasure, though I fancy that most of the assailings took place in the T.A, since as the _Appendix_ and _Of Dwarves and Men_(HoME 12) claim, most of the Western Dwarves dwelt in Khazad-dum, so there couldn't really be many big states which the dragons could assail and rob of jewels etc., unless it was in the early Dwarvish history, prior to the creation of Khazad-dum, in which Gundubad, mentioned as the Orkish capital in _The Hobbit_ was the Dwarvish 'capital', where many assemblys of the seven houses met. It was also where Durin was 'born'. 

One example of contact between Dragons and Dwarves and Men is when Fram, the Northman prince slew Scatha and the Northmen claimed the Dwarvish treasure that Scatha had required but this caused a war for the treasure between the Dwarves and Northmen which was odd since _Of Dwarves and Men_ tells us about the revernce they had for each other when they were much-esteemed allies.


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## Beleg (Jul 21, 2003)

> One example of contact between Dragons and Dwarves and Men is when Fram, the Northman prince slew Scatha and the Northmen claimed the Dwarvish treasure that Scatha had required but this caused a war for the treasure between the Dwarves and Northmen which was odd since Of Dwarves and Men tells us about the revernce they had for each other when they were much-esteemed allies.




Fram was of the Eotheod who had moved to the Northern Valley's of Greylin and Langwell in 1977 T.A and Dwarves Moved to Grey Mountains in 2210 T.A. So I don't think there was a lot of time for the Eotheod and the Dwarves to establish pally ties. Besides The Eotheod were basically people belonging to Kingdom of Rhovanion which say South and East of Mirkwood and there they would have compartively less contact with the Dwarves compared to those people living In the Northern Eaves of Mirkwood.


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## Inderjit S (Jul 21, 2003)

Beleg I didn't say they were allies at that specific time, I said WHEN they were allies, as were the ancestors of Fram, who were of the Marachian tribes who didn't go to Eriador. I would've though someone would have remebered their long-standing alliance and reverence which may have continued in the T.A, for a while, though the Mannish tribes of Rhovanion were scattered by Easterlings in the War between Sauron and the Elves.


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