# Discussion Group #1 "Why did Sauron continue to honour and worship his fallen Lord?"



## Grond (Aug 6, 2002)

This discussion is open to all members of the Tolkien Forum. 


> _from The Silmarillion, The Akallabeth,_
> Then behind locked doors Sauron spoke to the King, and he lied saying; 'It is he whose name is not now spoken; for the Valar have deceived you concerning him, putting forward the name of Eru, a phantom devised in the folly of their hearts, seeking to enchain Men in servitude to themselves. For they are the Oracle of this Eru, which speaks only what they will. *But he that is their master shall yet prevail, and he will deliver you from this phantom; and his name is Melkor, Lord of all, Giver of Freedom, and he shall make you stronger than they.'*
> Then Ar-Pharazôn the King turned back to the *worship of the Dark, and of Melkor the Lord thereof, at first in secret, but ere long openly and in the face of his people; and they for the most part followed him.*





> _from Morgoth's Ring, ATHRABETH FINROD AH ANDRETH_
> All agree, however, in making the cause of disaster the acceptance by Men of *Melkor as King (or King and God)*. In one version a complete legend (compressed in timescale) is given explicitly as a Númenórean tradition, for it makes Andreth say: This is the Tale that Adanel of the House of Hador told to me. The Númenóreans were largely, and their non-Elvish traditions mainly, derived from the People of Marach, of whom the House of Hador were the chieftains. *The legend bears certain resemblances to the Númenórean traditions concerning the part played by Sauron in the downfall of Númenor.* But this does not prove that it is entirely a fiction of post-downfall days. It is no doubt mainly derived from actual lore of the People of Marach, quite independent of the Athrabeth. [Added note: Nothing is hereby asserted concerning its 'truth', historical or otherwise.] The operations of Sauron naturally and inevitably resembled or repeated those of his master. That a people in possession of such a legend or tradition should have later been deluded by Sauron is sad but, in view of human history generally, not incredible.


These quotes indicate that Sauron continued to guide the People's of Middle-earth to worship Melkor. My question is why???? Why didn't Sauron seek to usurp his ancient Lord and have the People's of Middle-earth worship him (Sauron) instead?


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## Maedhros (Aug 6, 2002)

> My question is why???? Why didn't Sauron seek to usurp his ancient Lord and have the People's of Middle-earth worship him (Sauron) instead?


Well, first because it fits his needs at that Time. In Númenor, Sauron used the figure of Melkor because it provided him the "facade" of something bigger than himself. After all, how could he represent himself as a god to the Númenoreas after they had captured him.
From Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed


> Sauron was not a 'sincere' atheist, but he preached atheism, because it weakened resistance to himself (and he had ceased to fear God's action in Arda). As was seen in the case of Ar-Pharazôn. But there was seen the effect of Melkor upon Sauron: he spoke of Melkor in Melkor's own terms: as a god, or even as God. This may have been the residue of a state which was in a sense a shadow of good: the ability once in Sauron at least to admire or admit the superiority of a being other than himself. Melkor, and still more Sauron himself afterwards, both profited by this darkened shadow of good and the services of 'worshippers'.
> Sauron, apparently a defeated rival for world-power, now a mere hostage, can hardly propound himself; but as the former servant and disciple of Melkor, the worship of Melkor will raise him from hostage to high priest. But though Sauron's whole true motive was the destruction of the Númenóreans, this was a particular matter of revenge upon Ar-Pharazôn, for humiliation. Sauron (unlike Morgoth) would have been content for the Númenóreans to exist, as his own subjects, and indeed he used a great many of them that he corrupted to his allegiance.


But I have to admit that Sauron was striving to become the Supreme Lord of ME.
From Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed


> But like all minds of this cast, Sauron's love (originally) or (later) mere understanding of other individual intelligences was correspondingly weaker; and though the only real good in, or rational motive for, all this ordering and planning and organization was the good of all inhabitants of Arda (even admitting Sauron's right to be their supreme lord), his 'plans', the idea coming from his own isolated mind, became the sole object of his will, and an end, the End, in itself.


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## 7doubles (Aug 7, 2002)

thats it.


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## Ancalagon (Aug 8, 2002)

Personally I feel Sauron was ever indebted to Melkor for reaching such a high rank under one so powerful.


> Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel.


However, I have another thought that sticks in my mind. Twice Sauron managed to elude the Valar; once when Melkor was captured and chained, 


> and Sauron they did not find. But when the Battle was ended and from the ruin of the North great clouds arose and hid the stars, the Valar drew Melkor back to Valinor, bound hand and foot, and blindfold; and he was brought to the Ring of Doom. There he lay upon his face before the feet of Manwë and sued for pardon; but his prayer was denied, and he was cast into prison in the fastness of Mandos, whence none can escape, neither Vala, nor Elf, nor mortal Man


and secondly when he was prepared to admit his sorrow for his part in the ravaging of Middle-Earth under Melkor, following the War of Wrath. Melkor paid the price for his sins while Sauron enjoyed his freedom at his masters expense. 


> . Then Sauron was ashamed, and he was unwilling to return in humiliation and to receive from the Valar a sentence, it might be, of long servitude in proof of his good faith; for under Morgoth his power had been great.


I somehow feel that Saurons allegiance to Melkor run somewhat deeper than one might think. Though in truth I feel that although his allegiance was strong, there must have been an elemaent of guilt in Saurons mind that he had left Melkor to face the music and pay the price, without actually facing any punishment himself. Rather than seek pardon, he returned to his old ways and ever sought to succeed where his master had failed.


> Therefore when Eönwë departed he hid himself in Middle-earth; and he fell back into evil, for the bonds that Morgoth had laid upon him were very strong.


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## Chymaera (Aug 11, 2002)

Evil takes many forms and Sauron will say and do anything that will work to meet his ends.

He was hedging his bets just in case Melkor escapes or is freed from the the Halls of Mandos and returns to Arda.


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## Brent (Aug 19, 2002)

It seems to me that the Maia are described as the lessor spiritis of the Ainur and are "grouped" into the "peoples" of various Valar, now Sauron was of the group who "followed" (served ?) Aule, but Melkor "seduced" him from those people, presumably to those Maia who followed him.

Maybe its in Sauron's nature to "follow" a Valar. 
Since the Ainur are from the thought of Eru and presumably from specific mind paradigms - i.e. understanding only the aspect of Eru's thought from which they flow.
I agree that Sauron would have "used" Melkor in his Numenorean captivity BUT I think that there was something in Saurons nature, his essence, that made him follow Melkor and kept him loyal.

His reasons for not returning to Valinor to be judged at the end of the first age are his nature - he will not be judged and suffer captivity.

So the group my wish to consider - was this essentially put there by Eru and was something over which Sauron had little control. The essence of what he was ?

All Sauron knows is desire, the desire for power, to own things to, command things - this draws him to the fountainhead of such thoughts Melkor, this same nature makes it impossible for him to completely forget his "master"


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## Grond (Aug 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Brent _
> *It seems to me that the Maia are described as the lessor spiritis of the Ainur and are "grouped" into the "peoples" of various Valar, now Sauron was of the group who "followed" (served ?) Aule, but Melkor "seduced" him from those people, presumably to those Maia who followed him.
> 
> Maybe its in Sauron's nature to "follow" a Valar.
> ...


Brent, those are my thoughts exactly. Thanks for putting them into a narrative that was easily followed. Sauron didn't use Melkor to his own ends in Middle-earth. He was ultimately being used to further spread the discord his true Master began in the very beginning of the Music of Iluvator.


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## Walter (Aug 19, 2002)

...which brings us back to the age old discussion: evil by will or evil by nature...

pantha rei...


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## Brent (Aug 21, 2002)

Thanks Grond - I think we've covered this in other posts before. There's a subtext in the works I've read that suggests, though it doesn't say so (at least I can't remember it) that Melkor's infleuence "lingers" in ME.

And Yep your back to the old evil by choice or by nature arguement. But since this is a story Tolkien can do what he likes from a metaphysical point of view. 
To me, I'm I'm being personal here, Eru creates the Ainur and they are of his thought, he sees through them and their natures like glass. They are locked within the thought of Eru from which they were created and cannot see beyond it, no matter how wise or powerful they are. 
They have "free will" if you like but each has his own nature and that nature IMO is not like a man or an Elf. At the risk of being even more controversial Men are closer to Eru than Elves - but thats a discussion for another thread.

"Some men like a fishing, some men like a fowlin' and some like to hear the cannon balls a howl'in - but me, I like sleeping" as the song goes.
Well Melkor likes a rulin', a dominatin' and an ownin' and Sauron well he "fell in love" with Melkor and his "lifestyle" and deemed them rightwise. 
Like the joke about the Scorpion and the Frog.


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## Maedhros (Aug 21, 2002)

Hmmmmmmmmm. Anc, you may want to stop this discussion and wait after the debate is over. I think that it could overlap with the debate.


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## Ancalagon (Feb 16, 2003)

It is also worth noting there is no record of any of Melkors servants ever having rebelled against him, other than Ungoliant, who might be considered rather a 'loose canon' and under no-ones dominion.

The same can be said for Sauron, none of his generals ever deserted their master? Actually, there seems to be unity and collective purpose in evil, that tends to be lacking somewhat in the forces pitted against it. It is interesting to note that it was not arms or wars that overcame Sauron.


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## Jesse (Feb 21, 2003)

I believe he continued to worship his fallen lord because he believed his LORD could rise again in power and in form. Makes sense to me.


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## Arvedui (Apr 19, 2004)

This thread is moved out of Ost-in-Edhil. Or should I say *bump*?


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## Inderjit S (Apr 19, 2004)

Did he really worship Morgoth? Sauron was a casuist and an opportunist. He merely used the Melkor factor to seduce the Númenóreans. By the time of the T.A he ceased to "believe" in Melkor;



> "Sauron had not served Morgoth, even in his last stages, without becoming infected by his lust for destruction, and his hatred of God (which must end in nihilism). Sauron could not, of course, be a 'sincere' atheist. Though one of the minor spirits created before the world, he knew Eru, according to his measure. He probably deluded himself with the notion that the Valar (including Melkor) having failed, Eru had simply abandoned Eä, or at any rate Arda, and would not concern himself with it any more. It would appear that he interpreted the 'change of the world' at the Downfall of Númenor, when Aman was removed from the physical world, in this sense: Valar (and Elves) were removed from effective control, and Men under God's curse and wrath. If he thought about the Istari, especially Saruman and Gandalf, he imagined them as emissaries from the Valar, seeking to establish their lost power again and 'colonize' Middle-earth, as a mere effort of defeated imperialists (without knowledge or sanction of Eru). His cynicism, which (sincerely) regarded the motives of Manwë as precisely the same as his own, seemed fully justified in Saruman. Gandalf he did not understand. But certainly he had already become evil, and therefore stupid, enough to imagine that his different behaviour was due simply to weaker intelligence and lack of firm masterful purpose. He was only a rather cleverer Radagast - cleverer, because it is more profitable (more productive of power) to become absorbed in the study of people than of animals."


 'Myths Transformed' HoME 10



> 'When he found how greatly his knowledge was admired by all other rational creatures and how easy it was to influence them, his pride became boundless. By the end of the Second Age he assumed the position of Morgoth's representative. By the end of the Third Age (though actually much weaker than before) he claimed to be Morgoth returned'


 'Letter 183; Letters of Tolkien'

So Sauron was his own god, so to speak.

Of course he was also an emissary;



> Other evils there are that may come; for Sauron is himself but a servant or emissary


 Gandalf in the 'Last Debate'.

and 



> Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot by the Gods be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days. Some say also that Morgoth himself has at times crept back, secretly as a cloud that cannot be seen, and yet is venomous, surmounting the Walls, and visiting the world to encourage his servants and set on foot evil when all seems fair. But others say this is the black shadow of Sauron, whom the Gnomes named Gorthû, who served Morgoth long ago and came with him into the world, and was the greatest and most evil of his underlings; and Sauron fled from the Great Battle and escaped, and he dwelt in dark places and perverted Men to his dreadful allegiance and his foul worship.


 LQ; HoME 5


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