# Who's older?



## Kyranger (Jul 21, 2010)

So, who's older, Tom bombadil or Treebeard? Tom said that he was there before the first acorn and the first raindrop, but Gandalf said that Treebeard was the oldest living thing in middle earth. I'm just curious, I could never find a very clear answer on the subject.


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## Prince of Cats (Jul 21, 2010)

Kyranger said:


> So, who's older, Tom bombadil or Treebeard? Tom said that he was there before the first acorn and the first raindrop, *but Gandalf said that Treebeard was the oldest living thing in middle earth*. I'm just curious, I could never find a very clear answer on the subject.


 
Hmm, great observation! Gandalf does say in The Two Towers that Treebeard is ...



> [SIZE=-1]the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the Sun upon this Middle-earth




Then ... is Gandalf slightly exaggerating? Is Tom indeed then some sort of ainu and arguably not living? If the ainur _are_ living, does that make Tom Eru? 

Or does Tom simply never _walk_, and only skip? 
[/SIZE]


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## Starbrow (Jul 21, 2010)

Maybe he means that Treebeard is the oldest living thing from Middle Earth and that Bombadil is from outside of Middle Earth.


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## Elthir (Jul 22, 2010)

There's (relatively) new information published in the _Reader's Companion_ to _The Lord of the Rings_ (Hammond and Scull)...

'In an unpublished draft letter of late 1968 Tolkien wrote 'Eldest was the courtesy title of Treebeard as the oldest surviving Ent. The Ents claimed to be the oldest "speaking peoples" after the Elves [illegible] until taught the art of speech by the Elves. . . . They were therefore placed after the Dwarves in the Old List . . . since Dwarves had the power of speech from their awaking' (private collection). In any case, according to the account of their origin given in The Silmarillion, the Ents were created in response to the creation of the Dwarves, and like the Dwarves did not wake in Middle-earth until after the Elves' (382).

It's also noted that Tolkien: 'was given to 'rhetorical superlatives', such as 'the oldest living thing' (compare, as already noted for p. 15, the statement at the end of the Prologue that when Celeborn at last sought the Grey Havens 'with him went the last living memory of the Elder Days in Middle-earth'). The balance of the statements in Tolkien's drafts for the 1968 letter indicate that Treebeard was the oldest surviving Ent, but no one knew the origin of Tom Bombadil or could remember a time when he was not in the world; and Bombadil 'was therefore often referred to as the oldest speaker' ' (391-2).

... and I thought it might be of interest to this thread in general.


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## Bucky (Jul 22, 2010)

No trees, no Ents....

There Bombadil must be older by default....

And Ainu certainly are alive within the confines on Middle-earth since they can die within the confines of Middle-earth, at least physically. Just see the Balrogs, Sauron, etc.


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## Kyranger (Jul 22, 2010)

Also Treebeard said at one point or another that there were trees older than him in the deep vales of Fangorn.


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## HLGStrider (Jul 25, 2010)

Yes, but trees don't (usually) walk, so even if there were older trees, Treebeard would still be the oldest thing that "walks beneath the sun."


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## Kyranger (Jul 25, 2010)

But at the end of the chapter of "The road to Isengard" Gandalf tells Theoden that when they hear Treebeard speak, they will be hearing the speech of the oldest of all living things.


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