# Could she yet live?



## HLGStrider (Dec 22, 2003)

> and beneath they wrote also: NIENOR NINIEL. But she was not there, nor was it eer known wither the cold waters of Teiglin had taken her.



I thought this was a very funny way to end the story. Why include this disclaimer that they didn't find Nienor's body? Was it symbolic somehow. ..or could it mean there is hope?

After I read this, I flipped back a page or two and re-read the scene where she jumped. 



> . . .coming to the brink of Cabed-en-Aras she cast herself over, and was lost in the wild water.



It doesn't directly say she died (I know, I know, lost and dead are very similar. . .but it could just mean lost. . .couldn't it?). It doesn't say anything about "thus ended Niniel" or "she was overcome by the cold waves and drowned."

Why would it be left so open ended and vague if there wasn't hope that maybe she wasn't found because she didn't die? Only other characters state that she died. Does it ever say so within the text by the narrarating voice?

Hurin is given a 'thus ended the mightiest warrior' even though he drowned and there is no mention of finding his body. 

So, am I just being overly hopeful? 
Did I miss something?
What else could have happened to her?
Is there any hope?


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## Starflower (Dec 22, 2003)

I would say there is ( was ?) no hope for Nienor. She jumped into the Teiglin with the specific intention of ending her life, even if she did survive the actual jump, she probably would have just laid down and died... the revelation that the man she loved and married was her own brother was too much for her.

And I think the same applies for Hurin, he had nothing left, the whole of his family had been destroyed by Morgoth, he had absolutely nothing to live for. Even if he would have lived, he would not have wanted to. 
I have always found the fate of Hurin inexplicably cruel. It seems just too much to put on the shoulders of one man.


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## Lantarion (Dec 22, 2003)

I agree Starflower, it's very depressing. 

But about Niniel, I too think that she did truly drown. Her death is tragic and emotional, and therefore a powerful plot-device. The _Narn_ is a legend-tale, and they seldom if ever have ambiguous endings. And as Túrin's fate is extremely similar to that of Kullervo in the _Kalevala_, I assume that Tolkien would have given his equivalent a similar fate.


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## Celebthôl (Dec 22, 2003)

Maybe Mr B found her and now she goes by the name Goldberry? 

And he found her in the rived/by the river, so he thought she was a river-maiden and maybe she lost her memory and so took up with Mr B and is now Goldberry!!  It fits so perfectly if you look at it from a weird angle!!!!


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## Starflower (Dec 22, 2003)

i just re-read the passage in Kalevala where Kyllikki tells Kullervo who she really is, then she runs off and drowns herself in the river. AS in the story of Turin and Niniel, it is very tragic and gives you shivers when you read it. 
Incidentally there is a new english translation out of the Kalevala, Lanty, it's worth checking out. 
http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/kveng/


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## Inderjit S (Dec 22, 2003)

I think she died, it would have been nigh on impossible to survive the jump, (she could run, not leap like a Deer) but if she survived, then she would have been bereft of any will to live anyway. Unless she became Tarzan's wife that is 

Níniel was human, so she was mortal, so she would have died anyway.


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## Celebthôl (Dec 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Inderjit S _
> *Níniel was human, so she was mortal, so she would have died anyway. *



Oh blast! I forgot that!! Sister of Húrin and all  stupid Elvish name!!!  j/k


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## Inderjit S (Dec 22, 2003)

Daughter of Húrin.


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## Húrin Thalion (Dec 22, 2003)

AND HEY! Even if she ain't my sis, you can't touch her!


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## HLGStrider (Dec 22, 2003)

My thought would've been, if I were writing the story, that she would've come to land and died in child birth and there would have been a vengence sequel involving the child somehow. . .or the child's ancestor. 

It just came to mind because the phrase seemed so strange an ending.


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## Bucky (Dec 22, 2003)

She's dead.

Her name's on the tombstone, right?

I think that's JRR's way of saying "She's dead"


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## HLGStrider (Dec 22, 2003)

But he didn't carve that tombstone. He wrote that fallible characters carved it. . .and then he put a disclaimer that she wasn't there. . .Why bother with a disclaimer?


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## Celebthôl (Dec 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Inderjit S _
> *Daughter of Húrin.  *



You know what i mean!!


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