# Maps thread



## Kimmie_Ris (Aug 20, 2020)

I was wondering if there's any consensus on which maps over middle earth are the best. Since I only have pocket editions of the books and besides the small size the maps included were messy and lacking, I would like to reference another map at times. If there's already a thread on the subject I apologize for missing it. Anyways I thought it would be a fun discussion to follow. Feel free to discuss maps over other areas as well!


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## Deleted member 12094 (Aug 20, 2020)

A very good question Kimmie_Ris.

The clear winner is the "Atlas of Middle Earth" from Karen Wynn Fonstad. It's cheap and easy to find. You'll be delighted.

Additionally, you might also like “Journeys of Frodo” from Barbara Strachey. As its title suggests, this concentrates on "lord of the Rings" only, whereas the former covers all ages of M-E. I think that the latter can be quite complementary to the former, but I suspect that finding a copy of it might be a little more difficult.


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## Olorgando (Aug 20, 2020)

I can definitely second Merroe's post wholeheartedly.
Strachey's book goes down into serious detail, more so that Fonstad's excellent Atlas (Fonstad was a professional cartographer while Strachey was not, which does not detract from her accomplishment in the least).
My copy of "Journeys of Frodo" notes the 1981 copyright, and reprints 1984, 1985, 1987 and 1989. It is a high-quality trade paperback in landscape format (wider than it is high) of 188 mm h by 245 mm w. As the price on it is given in £, I probably found it during the largest single haul of JRRT-related books I ever managed, during a three-week vacation in Ireland in the early 1990s - more than 20 books, IIRC.
There are Wiki articles both on Strachey and her "Journeys of Frodo", but I can't tell from them whether the book is out of print or not.
Fonstad's Atlas was also originally published in 1981 (by Houghton Mifflin in the US), mine is a 1992 reprint by Grafton i.e. Harper Collins (probably also from the Ireland vacation), and Wiki mentions a 2001 reissue edition (due to PJ's films, no doubt).


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## Kimmie_Ris (Aug 20, 2020)

Thank you both for your in-depth answers! 

It sounds like I have another book to buy. I'll keep an eye out for Journeys of frodo as well, but right now I can't see any sellers.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 20, 2020)

While I agree on the Atlas, keep in mind that there are elements present not delineated by Tolkien -- in other words, speculative.


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## Elthir (Aug 20, 2020)

I second that caution *S-eS.* While on the whole KWF's Atlas is quite helpful and I recommend it too, there are bits with which I disagree. And with all due respect, I even disagree with a section of Christopher Tolkien's map from _Unfinished Tales_, so I'm not easy to please as well as being a troublemaker. 

In my opinion . . . 

*1)* The best Middle-earth map is the Pauline Baynes illustrated map, made with Tolkien's help.

*2) *The best Beleriand map is Christopher Tolkien's _Silmarillion_ map. Although conservative compared to KWF's Silmarillion map in her_ Atlas of Middle-Earth_, it's conservative for a reason
with respect to the North.

*3)* The best ice cream is soft serve chocolate vanilla mix.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 20, 2020)

Elthir said:


> I even disagree with a section of Christopher Tolkien's map from _Unfinished Tales_


Interesting -- would you mind saying which section?

I have to disagree with 3). Soft serve ice cream is just disguised air.


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## Elthir (Aug 20, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Interesting -- would you mind saying which section?




I find the North-west section off the coast of Lindon a bit too "earthy" compared to the Pauline Baynes map. And maps of Middle-earth published in Tolkien's lifetime.



And plenty of people have already disagreed with me disagreeing with CJRT here, but that hasn't stopped me from being a disagreeable cat, at times.



> I have to disagree with 3). Soft serve ice cream is just disguised air.




😆


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## Ealdwyn (Aug 20, 2020)

I agree with Merroe on the KWF atlas, if you want all your maps in one volume. 
I like to be able to visualise where the action is taking place, and after multiple readings of _LotR_ I still find myself referencing the maps. I find it indispensable while reading _The Sil_ because, although I can visualise all the major locations, with a few less-mentioned places I often need to check exactly where they are. 😜



Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I have to disagree with 3). Soft serve ice cream is just disguised air.


This.


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## Elthir (Aug 20, 2020)

Elthir said:


> I find the North-west section off the coast of Lindon a bit too "earthy" compared to the Pauline Baynes map. And maps of Middle-earth published in Tolkien's lifetime.




Translation: in the maps published in Tolkien's lifetime, and in the map Tolkien helped make with Pauline Baynes, there are no islands of_ Himling_ or _Tol Fuin_. That's just a basic observation without the argument . . .

. . . and I also include, that *if* the Isle of Himling existed (internally I mean, as I've no doubt these two islands once existed "externally" in any case) -- and again I don't think it did for reasons I won't go into here -- then I argue that the name should be* Himring *in any case.

🐾


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## Olorgando (Aug 20, 2020)

Well, actually both Strachey and Fonstad have taken issue with what is said about the view from where the Trolls were and what is in the LoTR map by CRT. Both have felt the need to move the course of the Loudwater, IIRC.


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## Elthir (Aug 20, 2020)

Not that you said CJRT made a mistake here Gando, but on the heels of my post disagreeing
with Christopher Tolkien about the islands of _Tol Fuin_ and _Himling_, I feel like I should add that the unauthorized movement of the Loudwater is based on a textual concern and not, as far as I'm aware at the moment, a mistake by CJRT (again, you didn't say it was a mistake).

At least in the section of _The Return of The Shadow_ that I'm looking at now (maybe something's said elsewhere), CJRT doesn't note that he made the distance 75 miles, and in any case, on his father's maps, the shortest distance between the Bridge and the Loudwater varied between approximately (in the earliest) 45, 60, and 62 miles.

Strachey reduced it to 27 miles (hill above the Last Bridge to the nearest point of the Loudwater).

But CJRT notes that with Strachey's movement of the river's course, the Angle *"ceases to be at all triangular"* and that while the question of being able to see both rivers from the area concerned remains, the problem *"cannot be resolved in this way"*

🐾


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## Deleted member 12094 (Aug 21, 2020)

Elthir and Olorgando: if you want a discussion on this well known issue then do also have a look here, where Grendel brought up the same subject some time ago.

In a nutshell though, the core of this problem is not Strachey’s or Fonstad’s maps but rather an irreconcilable difference of some geographic aspects in the tales of TH and LotR: if you draw the map between the Shire and Rivendell according to TH it won’t fit for LotR … and the reverse.

You can read about further interesting criticism on Fonstad’s “Atlas of Middle-Earth” here and while you’re at it, criticism on Strachey’s “Journeys of Frodo” here.

Let this not distract us from the great quality and depth of both works though, nor from the pleasure of using them. Christopher Tolkien himself reviewed both works and had some comments both positive and negative, but I understood that he held them in positive esteem – and that’s really saying something.


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## Olorgando (Aug 21, 2020)

Merroe said:


> In a nutshell though, the core of this problem is not Strachey’s or Fonstad’s maps but rather an irreconcilable difference of some geographic aspects in the tales of TH and LotR: if you draw the map between the Shire and Rivendell according to TH it won’t fit for LotR … and the reverse.


Kind of the problem that TH "strayed" into M-e territory, but that JRRT never managed to "rewrite" it sufficiently to make it fit better with the new "gold standard" LoTR. As I have just finished reading John D. Rateliff's "The History of The Hobbit", there is that interesting part about the "1960 Hobbit" (called the "Fifth Phase") which has been occasionally mentioned here on TTF. What seems to have put an end to this "Fifth Phase" is the following:
"According to Christopher Tolkien, when his father had reached this point in the recasting he loaned the material to a friend to get an outside opinion on it. We do not know this person's identity, but apparently her response was something along the lines of 'this is wonderful, but it's not _The Hobbit_.' She must have been someone whose judgment Tolkien respected, for he abandoned the work ..."


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## Elthir (Aug 21, 2020)

I fully agree that these *"bits"* -- I chose that word purposely to suggests a relative smallness in comparison to a whole book -- should *not distract* from the overall helpfulness and goodity of both books (or CJRT's UT map, with respect to my _opinion_ anyway).

That stamped, concerning Strachey's *dam** change of the river's course: for myself, I'd still prefer to give precedence to the map in this case, which preserves the Angle (shape-wise), and I'd rather see a footnote regarding the textual concern.

__________
*Beaver pun. Once again, I apologize in advance.


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## Ealdwyn (Aug 21, 2020)

I realise that some people feel strongly about this, but personally I've no problem with there being alternative/inaccurate versions of the maps. Like many of the works derived from JRRT's works, it's an artisitic interpretation - in the same way that the art of Naismith/Howe/Lee depicts alternative interpretations of the text, but doesn't necessarily agree with it to the smallest degree of accuracy. 
I'm fine with different versions of the maps just as long as nobody asks me to use one for navigation. 😜


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## Elthir (Aug 21, 2020)

No unauthorized tampering with the Angle in any case . . . I'll not have it! Keep in mind that there were Hobbits who came from this land, _*Angleland*_.

I'm putting my 🐾 down regarding this much. Beavers beware!


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## Olorgando (Aug 21, 2020)

Elthir said:


> No unauthorized tampering with the Angle in any case . . . I'll not have it! Keep in mind that there were Hobbits who came from this land, _*Angleland*_.
> I'm putting my 🐾 down regarding this much. Beavers beware!


I don't recall JRRT noting the Hobbits to be overly competent in geometry; who knows what they considered an angle ...
and as for that, 90 degrees is also an angle - the dividing line between acute and obtuse ...


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## Elthir (Aug 21, 2020)

That's *acute* answer *Gando* . . . but I'm still *spearheading* this cause!


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## Olorgando (Aug 21, 2020)

Elthir said:


> That's *acute* answer *Gando* . . . but I'm still *spearheading* this cause!


Spear heads, at least those I've seen in museums, seem to have less to do with geometry and more with trigonometry, to type elliptically without resorting to hyperbola.


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## Elthir (Aug 21, 2020)

Another *naith* response Gando, but to no avail!

 Sindarin _naith _“angle” (used as a name)


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## Olorgando (Aug 21, 2020)

I can imagine John Cleese feeling an urge to *gore* us for our violation of his strict ban on puns. 😬


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## Elthir (Aug 21, 2020)

Maybe, but our puns get to the point!


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## Olorgando (Aug 21, 2020)

Which reminds me of a pointed definition I once heard:
"Some people's mental horizon is a circle with the radius zero, which they then call their point of view."
Don't know if I still own a geometry compass (I do own one of those used for navigation), but drawing that kind of a circle with it could be a challenge ... 🤔


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## Elthir (Aug 21, 2020)

Back to map stuff, I recall a comment that for the revised edition, JRRT appears to have altered some text to better fit a mistake made by CJRT.

I myself have never been much of a *roads scholar.*


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## Olorgando (Aug 21, 2020)

You mean the one that was issued after the reviled edition by Ace books?
Does CRT 'fess up to this anywhere in HoMe?


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## Elthir (Aug 21, 2020)

Yes CJRT confessed Gando (yet another testament to CJRT's admirable nature in my opinion) -- to carelessness due to haste concerning the road from Weathertop to the Ford -- with respect to the "great northward and southward swings" being accidentally altered to a "feeble" northward curve between Weathertop and the Hoarwell bridge, with the road running in a straight line to the Ford.

CJRT thinks Tolkien might have revised a description to make the discrepancy with the map less obvious. For more details on this see _The Return of The Shadow_, From Weathertop To The Ford.

🐾


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## Akhôrahil (Feb 11, 2021)

Elthir said:


> Translation: in the maps published in Tolkien's lifetime, and in the map Tolkien helped make with Pauline Baynes, there are no islands of_ Himling_ or _Tol Fuin_. That's just a basic observation without the argument . . .
> 
> . . . and I also include, that *if* the Isle of Himling existed (internally I mean, as I've no doubt these two islands once existed "externally" in any case) -- and again I don't think it did for reasons I won't go into here -- then I argue that the name should be* Himring *in any case.
> 
> 🐾


Have you seen the first map of The Lord of the Rings that J.R.R. Tolkien drew himself as his "working map", which shows the island Tol Fuin and the island Himling (or Himring, Tolkien's writing is hard to read and even he sometimes made mistakes)? Are you not happy with their Position or size when the map is overlayed with the map of Beleriand in the first age from The Silmarillion? I do not know how you define "internally" and "externally". If you mean mentioning the islands in a text written by J.R.R. Tolkien with "internally" and only showing them in a map drawn by J.R.R. Tolkien with "externally", then those islands exist "externally". However the map was changed y J.R.R. Tolkien several times and we do not know whether he wanted to keep them. The Island Himling is not in the map labelled "MIDDLE-EARTH" (the second Map from the top) in the maps section on the website of the Tolkien Estate, but it may habe been forgotten to be copied in from the earlier maps and the left side of the map does not externe far enough out into the ocean to be able to show the island of Tol Fuin.


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## Elthir (Feb 11, 2021)

By _internal_ I mean in story: an _external _detail would be Tolkien changing the name Trotter to Strider, thus Strider is the internal name and "Trotter" never existed within the story itself.

I've seen the posthumously published "Himling, Tol Fuin" map, and I agree with Christopher Tolkien's: *" . . . and though the fact is nowhere referred to it is clear that Himring's top rose above the water that covered drowned Beleriand"*

And that Tol Fuin, the highest part of Taur-nu-Fuin, did too. *At the time* Tolkien made this map however.

But for whatever reason, these Islands are not included in the first edition of The Lord of the Rings, which contained fold-out maps with plenty of room to illustrate them, nor in any second edition maps. And _more notably_ to my mind, the map by Pauline Baynes, concerning which Tolkien himself added details, again failed to contain these Islands.

And for whatever these are worth (I realize one can argue mere brevity with respect to the following descriptions), according to Appendix A: *" . . .*_* were built in the days of the old world of the First Age by the forefathers of the Edain, before they crossed the Blue Mountains into Beleriand, of which Lindon is all that now remains."* _Appendix A

Treebeard's chant also refers to the *highland of Dorthonio*n (thus Taur-nu-Fuin slash Tol Fuin), which is included in his: *"And now all those lands lie under the wave"*

Also . . .

_Beleriand_ -- *"**The 'lost land of [the] Elder Days (of which Lindon was all that remained in the Third Age)" *JRRT, Unfinished Index for The Lord of the Rings.

What's said of_ Tol Morwen_ appears in later Silmarillion texts. In any case, so far (considering Carl Hostetter's forthcoming book), I can't locate any references to Himling or Tol Fuin in a post-1950s context. And even if the Tolkien estate web site did include these islands on their map, that would, in my opinion, need to come with more "evidence" than we _seem_ to have so far, or at least that I'm aware of (again, so far).

More generally, and not that you're unaware of this, the matter of what survived after the sinking of Beleriand includes a fairly fluid (pun intended) shifting of ideas (including *England* itself), or in other words, shifting external conceptions.

🐾


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 24, 2021)

I know it's not technically accurate to the sketches Tolkien made but I appreciate this one for making the world...world-sized. All of the others feel WAY too small.








1st Age.jpg







drive.google.com


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## Halasían (Oct 24, 2021)

Kimmie_Ris said:


> I was wondering if there's any consensus on which maps over middle earth are the best. Since I only have pocket editions of the books and besides the small size the maps included were messy and lacking, I would like to reference another map at times. If there's already a thread on the subject I apologize for missing it. Anyways I thought it would be a fun discussion to follow. Feel free to discuss maps over other areas as well!


As you can see from the discussion in this thread over the last year Kimmie, the answer is there isn't a consensus. That said, I have found that The Atlas of Middle Earth to be a fine work to use as reference, and I have found a few online projects that do the world of Middle Earth justice.

Downloadable Middle Earth Map
LoTR Project's Map
Three Rings Hand-drawn Map
Rohan Details


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