# Melkor or Morgoth?



## Thalion (Feb 6, 2011)

I've always wondered what other people call the the dark lord when dicussing him. i myself always call him Melkor. Morgoth is his evil, "The Dark Enamy Of The World", whereas Melkor is the being that walks the earth. And if i were in the world that tolkin created, weather it be elf or man, i would call him Melkor because calling him Morgoth is showing that you fear that which you do not see. I would just like to know other readers views 

_"Gaze through the thicking ash, and behold the star of the like before the Sun"_


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## Parsifal (Feb 6, 2011)

Well, "_Morgoth_" was sort of an "insult" by Feanor while Melkor still appeared fair in Valinor. Sort off like calling Satan/Lucifer "_The Devil_", making clear you know exactly what is on his mind and that you won't be decieved.

I suppose Melkor/Morgoth could later have used this as a name of fear. Sauron too used his given name to install fear in his enemies (Sauron the Great, as the Mouth of Sauron calls him), though he did not allow his own servants to speak it, apparently.

Main reason though is probably that Melkor *was* a Valar, but he Fell and lost that rank, and also his original name, and thus became Morgoth. Sort of a way of denying the fact that a Vala could be evil, he is no longer a Vala, he is not Melkor anymore.

In Dutch we actually have a word for it, though it is not exactly the same perhaps. When a number of Dutch nobles in the 16th century came before Margareta of Parma to plea for less harsh measures in taxes and inquisition, her advisor told her not to be afraid of these "_gueux" _(french for _beggar_). The Dutch resistance later began to call themselves _"Geuzen"_, which became an honourary title in Dutch, though an insult in French.
Thus the expression _geuzennaam_ still exists for a title that is meant as an insult, but sometimes used proudly, _******_ for black people for example.


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## morgoth145 (May 31, 2011)

Parsifal said:


> Well, "_Morgoth_" was sort of an "insult" by Feanor while Melkor still appeared fair in Valinor. Sort off like calling Satan/Lucifer "_The Devil_", making clear you know exactly what is on his mind and that you won't be decieved.
> 
> I suppose Melkor/Morgoth could later have used this as a name of fear. Sauron too used his given name to install fear in his enemies (Sauron the Great, as the Mouth of Sauron calls him), though he did not allow his own servants to speak it, apparently.
> 
> ...


 
i agree with parsifal and i think geuzen would be a good example indeed, and yes i am dutch aswell


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## Sulimo (May 31, 2011)

I personally prefer calling him Bauglir, but I do bet that those in Valinor probably still called him Melkor. The Eldar are the ones who named him Morgoth.



> Then Feanor rose, and lifting his hand before Manwe he cursed Melkor, naming him Morgoth, the Black Foe of the World; and by that name only was he known to the Eldar ever after.


I think that he actually still perceived himself as Melkor. One example of this is that Sauron created the Cult of Melkor not the Cult of Morgoth. Which makes me wonder if he was he still called Melkor among his servants. The atrocites he committed before being chained such as: marring the music of the Ainur, destroying the lamps, perverting the elves into goblins, and corrupting several Maiar, did not cause him to abanodon his idenity of Melkor. I do not know why an insult from an inferior being would cuase him to change his name. 

What this does make me curious of though is Sauron, who was originally _Mairon. I read that Sauron still went by Mairon through the first age. I wonder if this has anything to do with his dislike of his servants calling him Sauron. As that was a name bestowed upon him for his betrayal. I also wonder if Melkor is in a similar boat with being perceived as Morgoth. 
_


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## PaigeSinclaire88 (Dec 15, 2016)

So, my husband and I recently bought a book and most of it spoke of Melkor and it was not Tolkein related. Well, What I found interesting is that if you follow the mythos in the Thor movies, they seem to elude to the 'dark elves' And I have always found this intriguing. The three seem to be connected it would seem, at least on the surface.


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## Phuc Do (Feb 10, 2017)

I tend to use both Melkor and Morgoth.


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## CMParish (Feb 21, 2017)

Feanor was essentially saying that as far as he was concerned Melkor was "the enemy". It's like calling someone out as a coward, in which you henceforth always refer to that person as coward rather then using their true name. The other Eldar picked it up as well. No idea what the Valar referred to him by. As to Melkor's servants, I doubt they were on a first name basis, my guess is they called him Master or he killed them.


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