# Is Sauron a sissy compared to Morgoth?



## cab345 (Jan 29, 2003)

Tell me what you think...


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## Confusticated (Jan 29, 2003)

No

I guess you mean coward? I would say that Morgoth was the bigger coward, because I think he took less risks (relative to his power) than Sauron did. I think Morgoth's evil grew from wounded pride, to me that is a sign of weakness in giving into fear.
Morgoth was a huge, powerful sissy. Sauron was just evil.


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## Ghan-buri-ghan (Jan 29, 2003)

Sauron used to be known as Gorthaur the cruel, and could turn into a werewolf. Cool! a werewolf! Not wussy at all!

But then he got into relationship problems, starting staying out late, messing with the wrong elements, and changed his name. Don't know why; Gorthaur has such a nice, uh, **evil** ring to it. 

Anyway, he changes his name to Sauron, and bad things start happening to him: the Valar banish his boss Morgoth to somewhere outside known space, Sauron forges a ring that will be his ultimate downfall, and he plays games with the Numenoreans. 

Now, when we hear tell of these events its Sauron the Great, not Gorthaur the cruel, half-werewolf, half-nasty awful being. The live sacrifices on Meneltarma in Numenor were nasty, recalling some of the worst moments of Melkor (or Morgoth as the elves called him.) But, those ultimate nasty bits were few and far between.

If he had only stayed a werewolf. . .


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## Sirion (Jan 29, 2003)

Yeah he's a sissy, he was beaten by a dog once.


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## FoolOfATook (Jan 29, 2003)

> Yeah he's a sissy, he was beaten by a dog once.



You know, he has a point...


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## Ithrynluin (Jan 29, 2003)

> Yeah he's a sissy, he was beaten by a dog once.



I don't think he was a coward at all. Sauron is a Maia, but he was up against some powerful opponents in that case.

Huan, the hound of Valinor,...not your regular dog.
Lúthien, half-Maia, wielding great power of enchantment.
(+his conflict with Finrod prior to that)


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## redline2200 (Jan 29, 2003)

I would say that Sauron was not a coward ( even if Huan did beat the tar out of him ). For him to think that he could defeat Middle earth with people such as Gandalf, Celeborn, Elrond, Galadriel, and Cirdan still in it, proves that he is not a coward. I wouldn't want to make all those people my enemies, so I would say he had a lot of guts there. Also, he wasn't even fully formed when he started the war, considering he didn't have the ring. So he was weaker than normal anyway.

As for Morgoth, yes, Morgoth=coward. He needed Ungoliant to do his dirty work so therefore he is a coward (you don't see Sauron begging for other peoples help to do his own task).


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## Grond (Jan 29, 2003)

A very simple answer. Melkor was by far the more powerful. He put much more of himself into Arda than Sauron could have ever dreamed. Melkor was, in the beginning, the most powerful and most knowledgeable of all the Vala. He saw more of the Music and, thus, wanted not only to help in shaping Arda... he wanted to rule Arda. It is for that very reason the HoMe X is entitled Morgoth's Ring. Morgoth's Ring = the entirety of Middle-earth. Sauron's Ring = a round orb of Gold which seeks to rule Middle-earth. Mogoth/Melkor sought to subjugate the earth itself and all living things on it. Sauron was a short sighted subordinate (say that three times real fast). 

In the end, Melkor/Morgoth was much more of a sissy than was Sauron. Melkor had ascended to such heights in the beginning which meant that in putting so much of himself into Arda, he had that much further to fall. He was a coward in his defeat because he knew he had lost utterly.

Sauron felt that he had escaped the wrath of the Vala and could do as he pleased on Middle-earth. Even in defeat, his final act was one of defiance.


> _from The Return of the King, The Field of Cormallen_
> And as the Captains gazed south to the Land of Mordor, it seemed to them that, black against the pall of cloud, there rose a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightning-crowned, filling all the sky. *Enormous it reared above the world, and stretched out towards them a vast threatening hand*, terrible but impotent: for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed; and then a hush fell.


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## Brent (Jan 30, 2003)

Nope i don't think he was a sissy he just had this nack of not being very good when he wore his war face but very good when he wore his diplomatic face - he was a politician and not a soldier.
I.e. messes with Beren quest and gets beaten
comes forth in his war gear from the black tower and gets beaten (he still took out Gil-galad and Elendil in the process)
Then there's the times he uses direct force and runs into the Numenoreans - we learn from our experiences and Sauron is no exception "not by strength but by guile" as the SBS say.


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## BlackCaptain (Jan 30, 2003)

Would a sissy launch an attack on ME twice? Would the highest ranked servant of the most powerful force in Middle-earth be a sissy? NO
NO
NO

Sauron is not by any means a sissy. 
When was he beaten by a dog?
It was Beren, if I'm not mistaken, right?


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## FoolOfATook (Jan 30, 2003)

Morgulking- I thought you had gotten through the Sil by now.  Huan, the hound, took down Sauron during Beren and Luthien's adventures. However, I totally agree with your reasons for why Sauron is most definitely not a "sissy".


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## lossenandunewen (Jan 30, 2003)

in my opinion they were both wimps.

both of them wanted to destroy human life ...
WAIT!! I GOT IT!! SAURON IS GEORGE W. BUSH AND MORGOTH WAS SADDAM HUSSEIN!!!

well now that that's solved.


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## BlackCaptain (Jan 31, 2003)

Fool of a Took, I did start reading the Sil, and actualy got about halfway done, and was about 25% through the Beren and Luthien chapter, but decided to read the Trilogy again. After I finsish the Trilogy again, its back to the Silmarillion. Im gonna start over though, cuz i got pretty lost before that, and i didnt know what half of the things Tolkein was talking about were.

lossenandunewen, Sauron is not a sissy. A sissy does not launch attaks on the Children of God, who in this case is the Elves to Eru.

Would the most powerful force in all of Arda and the Heavens (save Illuvitar) choose a sissy as a second in command? No


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## lossenandunewen (Feb 1, 2003)

well a sissy does launch an attack on innocent living things to justify his own "evil" existance. He had no reason to do it, but he did, therefore he had no moral, standards, and was just an all around evil and stupid... thing... yea..


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## BlackCaptain (Feb 1, 2003)

ooo, so your saying that one Maiar, launching an attack on all the earth is being a sissy? Maiar arent THAT powerful. Besides, Sauron didnt fight until the very end, and only the first time. It was Orcs against Elves ane Numenorean Men. Sauron is not a sissy. If he was, he would have just done nothing when Melkor was cast away into the void. No, Sauron took up his masters job, and made War TWICE on ME. 

One Maia and Orcs vs Elves and Men. 

Sounds like an even match to me



And he did have reason to do it. Since the very begining, Melkor's reason was to have his own way, and not be a part of Eru's theme. That continued through Sauron, and Sauron's reason was to finish what his master started. Complete control over the world. And that was his own way. That was the discord in Eru's theme. For no reason?
If there was a father and a son, and the father has always tried to make a law against, oh i dont know, wearing hats, and the father was sent to jail for it. Wouldnt the son try and continue what his father started if this particular son was the fathers assistant? Yes.
If Melkor has always tried to change the world for the good of himself, and he got cast away into the void for it, wouldnt his second in command carry this "vission" out? Yes.


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## Morgoth (Feb 1, 2003)

For crying out loud, Morgoth is one of the Valar!!!! Sauron is a lesser being, and far less powerful. Sauron was stupid enough to put all his power into a ring, which could be taken from him. 
MorgulKing, you say Sauron was not a sissy because he launched an attack on the Children of Iluvatar. Morgoth launched his assault upon all of Arda, the Elves, the Edain, even ultimately, the Valar. Sauron fought his battles poorly, his main host being the Uruks and the Uruk-Hai, with a few trolls thrown in for good measure. These creature are far inferior creations to the firstborn (elves), and many cannot fight under light of day. Morgoth used many Balrogs, Gothmog being the powerful, and Dragons, two of the most mighty creatures/demons ever to grace the face of Arda. Thousands of Orcs can get scared by one Balrog. The host of Thangorodrim overthrew Gondolin, one of the best strategic defence points in Middle Earth.
And finally, if that isn't convincing enough, try this: Morgoth and his Host vs. Sauron and his Host. Who wins? I think I know the answer.


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## Morgoth (Feb 1, 2003)

p.s. The answer is Morgoth


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## BlackCaptain (Feb 1, 2003)

Of course Melkor is going to be stronger and more powerful than Sauron. Melkor is the greatest Vala, and Sauron is just a Maia. And you make good points about the war stategys. But what did Sauron have to work with? All of the dragons were destroyed, All of the Balrogs save Durin's Bane were destroyed. So i guess Sauron is a sissy compared to Melkor, but ONLY to Melkor. 
Sauron is NOT a sissy
Maybey compared to Melkor.
But would Melkor choose a sissy for a second-in-command? NO!
You could compare the Witch-King to Sauron and he would be a sissy. But in the end, Niether Melkor, Sauron, The witch-king, or anyone of that sort is a sissy. Sissy's dont risk their lives to conquer everything.

And what do you mean "The answer is morgoth"? What question are you answering?


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## ChunkyLover53 (Feb 1, 2003)

first of all, neither are sissies(sp?), but morgoth seems to be more powerful in 1v1 combat, and neither seemed to want to face his foes without being behind their armies. Morgoth slayed fingolfin, Sauron slayed Elendil and Gil-Galad, but they seemed to only do it when they had almost no other choice.

Remember when Sauron pissed that one Numenorean (last king of gondor before Aragorn, i think), and wanted to battle 1v1, but tricked him, and having him slayed by his host of nazgul and such.

Then Morgoth always hid away in his kingdom, while gothmog, glaurang(sp?), and Sauron led his forces over beleriand.

I think they are more cautious with they lives than really being sissies. They'd rather have their armies fall before them then themselves at the head. Army Generals do that all of the time, usually.


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## Grond (Feb 1, 2003)

One may read my thoughts on Sauron's cowardice (or lack thereof) here. 

Sauron was no coward. Not in the First Age nor in the Third Age.


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## ChunkyLover53 (Feb 1, 2003)

I think you and I are kinda on the same page on Sauron, but said it better, and I think Melkor is similar to Sauron's "cunningness" (sp? word? lol), which is why he was second command to Melkor.


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## balrog (Feb 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cab345 _
> *Tell me what you think... *



yes!


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## Grond (Feb 2, 2003)

*Re: Re: Is sauron a sissy compared to Morgoth?*



> _Originally posted by balrog _
> *yes! *


 Valar storm Utumno and where is Melkor? Hiding in the bottom of the caves. What does he do when captured? Begs for mercy. 

Melkor is a scheming patsy, a fearful and jealous usurper of the world. He always has his own minions handle the courageous work. He hides and directs and hopes things work out well for him. 

Sauron conives a way to keep Eonwe from taking him prisoner to Valinor. He wanders Middle-earth to get a feel for where he can establish a domain from where he can rule it all. He personally treats and teaches with the Noldor of Eregion, deceitfully weaving his web of evil through his teachings in Ring making. When he is discovered and his plans concerning control of the Rings fail, Sauron personally leads his army into Ost-in-Edhil and destroys the entire community. He tortures the locations of all the nine and the seven from Celebrimbor. He then personally carries the battle Northward and Westward enveloping almost the entirety of Middle-earth under his sway. He lays siege to Elrond in Imladris and Gil-galad in the Grey Havens. But for the coming of the first Numenorean fleet, Sauron would have been the ruler of all the land from the Sea to the East.

He sees a better way to woo the Numenoreans than outright battle so he connives his way into their trust. He allows himself to be taken captive so he can put his master plan into effect. He knows that the Valar will destroy any mortal who sets foot on Valinor. He convinces Ar-Pharazon that he is powerful enough to wrest immortality from them. 

His spirit escapes to Middle-earth where he discovers he is again confronted with the faithful of Numenor who have established kingdoms across Middle-earth in both the East and the North. He declares open war upon the People of Gondor and the Last Alliance if formed. In the end, Sauron again confronts his enemies face to face and kills both of them but is also vanquished in the fight. 

Melkor fought hand to hand twice in all of his existence. Once at the cowardly slaying of Finwe when he stole the Silmarils and again at his own Gates when Fingolfin gave his challenge which could not be denied. 

Melkor = chicken.
Sauron = defiant to the end.


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## Beleg (Feb 2, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Is sauron a sissy compared to Morgoth?*



> Melkor = chicken.





> Sauron = defiant to the end



Lol, but sadly for the first and hopefully not the last time, i am in total agreement with someone.


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## Morgoth (Mar 1, 2003)

Morgoth is NOT a chicken. When there were smaller, not as threatening battles, he saw it useless to have his presence on the battlefield. But when it came to the final battle, he fought until the bitter end.


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## LordGollum8 (Mar 1, 2003)

Sauron was not a sissy but he was once just a servant of Morgoth. So he started out with less power and evil. He once was in the form of a normal man until he was destroyed on a numenorean ship heading for the undying lands. His evil was so great his spirit fled back to middle earth and could no longer take on an appereance that men thought fair. Before he was "killed" he was friends with the elves and taught them to forge rings. them he tried to forge one to control theirs.


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## olorin the maia (Mar 2, 2003)

whoops, back up just a bit. Sauron was left behind in Numenor when the Edain sailed West to make war on the Valar. He was caught in the destruction of his own temple when the island foundered in the waves. The rest of what you say is correct.


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## Morgoth (Mar 2, 2003)

Exactly. At the height of his power, Morgoth could have held back the waves.


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## e.Blackstar (May 12, 2003)

*Sauron, the wimp!*

What do you think of Sauron? I mean, he was foolish enough to put nearly all of his lifeblood into a physical object that could be destroyed by anyone. He was beaten by a HOBBIT!

On the other hand, the Ring had an enormous pull on people so it would not be destroyed so easily. Also, he bought himself some insurance because if he was 'killed' he would live on in the Ring.

What do you think?


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## YayGollum (May 12, 2003)

Yikes! Well, I don't think he was a wimp! Maybe a little too confident with his creepy abilities.


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## BlackCaptain (May 13, 2003)

I remeber a HUGE thread earlier about this. Or was it somewhere else?... Oh well... I myself don't think he was foolish. I mean, he never had a chance of loosing it unless his entire fortress was laid under seige and he was forced to come out. And he wouldn't have any hope in winning the war then, so why would he even need his Ring? It could only make him stronger. Of course in the long run though, it turned out to be a very bad desicion, but it was a masterful and prudent descision at the time, and he had NO way of knowing that a Stoor would get the Ring.


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## Gandalf White (May 13, 2003)

Also remember that his mind could only understand others the way _he _ thought. In his mind destroying the Ring was not an option, he thought anyone who had it would want to use it, and so was never prepared. 

A wimp? A most emphatic "no" to that. 

Remember too that the Ring was destroyed by what seemed mere chance. (It was Fate, however.) Frodo couldn't do it and so Gollum came into play. "Even the very wise cannot see all ends." 

Personally I think the Ring was a very good idea.


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## BlackCaptain (May 13, 2003)

Yes, making the Ring was a good idea, but being naive enough to think no one would destroy it was an egotistical and bad descision.


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## YayGollum (May 13, 2003)

Why's that? It had that cool self defense thing. I guess he thought that'd be enough. What else would you toss in to make it foolproof?


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## Gandalf White (May 14, 2003)

I don't know if naive is the right word here. Perhaps blinded. In his perverted mind he couldn't see _anyone_ wanting to destroy the Ring. 

Also, he no doubt knew of the possessive power the Ring held over it's owners. There is no way anyone could cast it into Mount Doom of his own accord. Events had to transpire very, very closely to what happened in the book in order for It to be destroyed.


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## e.Blackstar (May 15, 2003)

Perhaps I should have restated that. I do not think Sauron was a wimp. No way! i merely wanted to provoke debate.


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## Gandalf White (May 15, 2003)

*!*

After reading your post people should realize you don't think Sauron was a wimp.

It's just a misleading title to draw people into the thread!   (Or, as you said, to prompt debate.)


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## elf boy (May 21, 2003)

I think it's a tie between them, I forget where but somewhere in the Sil it says that the only reason Sauron was less... urm.. evil than Morgoth was because Sauron worked for Morgoth.


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## Inderjit S (May 21, 2003)

Compared to Melkor he was a sissy yes. But Morgoth? No. Melkor was a far greater power, but as M.T describes his power had greatly fallen due to him exerting so much power into the substance of Arda/his servants. By the end of the F.A Tolkien comments;



> Sauron was 'greater' effectively in the Second Age then Morgoth at the end of the first....


 M.T; HoME 12


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