# The choices of Elrond and Elros



## Ithrynluin (Oct 6, 2003)

What if both Elrond and Elros had chosen to belong to the race of Men?

What if they both picked the Firstborn as their 'preference'?

How would either of these options have impacted the history of Arda?

Is it even possible to imagine the possible outcome of this?

Could it be said that one of the two would be a better choice than the other? Why?


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## Goro Shimura (Oct 6, 2003)

No Numenor...

or TWO Numenors...!


The latter is the hardest to imagine!! I think the story would loose a great deal of elegance if there were two Numenors. 

The former would mean that mankind would never be enobled by the influx of elvish blood. I don't think there would be much of a good story if there was no Numenor... Everything of thematic significance seems to hinge on its fall and rebirth. (Especially Aragorn and Arwen repeating the motive begun with Beren and Luthien.)


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## Lhunithiliel (Oct 6, 2003)

1/ If they have both chosen the race of Men, can you imagine the might of Numenor?!
I think that in that case Numenor would have set foot on ME much stronger and that Arnor and Gondor (if they ever would've existed as separate realms!) would have soon be large enough as to form the mightiest united kingdom of Men ever. 
Can you imagine how that kingdom would have developed? It could have become superior to all the kingdoms of the Elves! 
I think that in that case the Easterlings would have come to ME with no hostile intentions and they would have been soon integrated into that kingdom, which in its turn might have made it even stronger.
This kingdom would have spread its territories far east, north and south.
Would it dare spread west?
As a territory - it couldn't have because of the sea. But they might have developed their civilization to such heights as to reach Tol Eressea and establish direct contacts with the Elves.

What would the Valar's reaction to that have been ... I fear to imagine!

2/ If they both have chosen the race of the Elves, then there would not have been Numenor...I guess. There would have not been Arnor and Gondor and ME would be totally conquered by the forces of evil. The peoples pouring from the East would have settled into the lands of ME and would have formed small kingdoms - dominions of Sauron. Through them and aided by them Sauron would have gained quite a power apart from his natural Maia abilities and that could have made him dare assault the West - first Tol Eressea and then - Valinor.

What would the Valar's reaction to that have been ... I fear to imagine!


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## Celebthôl (Oct 6, 2003)

Hmmm, good questions.

1) There would be no Rivendell, much of the last alliance, MAY have been affected, there would be no Arwen, and no sons or Elrond in the long term, maybe Celebrían would not have been injured and sent of to Valinor, no last alliance, maybe Ar-Pharazone (sp) would have maybe not attacked Valinor as im guessing there would have been to kings side by side. . . . the list could go on. . . 

2) There would be no Numenor, probibly no last alliance, probibly no Sauron after the last big fight (whos name i dont know coz it wont be "last alliance" as i doubt it would), and the ring would have been destroyed, they would have on gone on their merry-way to Valinor and that would have been that, no more heros etc. . . 

3) How i have said. 

4) Well, yes, i just did. 

5) Naw, the best choise was the one that was made!


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## Ithrynluin (Oct 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Goroshimura _
> *No Numenor...
> 
> or TWO Numenors...!
> ...



Even if both sons of Earendil chose to belong to the Elves, there could still be a Numenor. Numenor did not simply come into being because of Elros. It was a reward for ALL the faithful Edain, therefore I think the first ruler of it might have been chosen from one of the three houses of Men.

And if both had chosen to be Men, there wouldn't necessarily be two Numenors. There would be one, and maybe both of them would rule it? Or one of them would be more eager to rule than the other (I'm thinking Elrond would be quicker to relinquish control to his brother, since he strikes me as humble and not at all power hungry).

If Elrond and his descendants were there on Numenor as well, I wonder how easy it would have been for Sauron to corrupt it later on?

And if both were Elven lords upon Middle Earth, perhaps the disaster with the Rings of Power could have been averted?

It's a complex issue, but it sure is fun to speculate. 



> _Originally posted by Lhunithiliel _
> *I think that in that case the Easterlings would have come to ME with no hostile intentions and they would have been soon integrated into that kingdom, which in its turn might have made it even stronger.*



Let's not forget that Sauron would still have been present in Middle-Earth and we can be sure that he would not be pleased with the splendour and prestige of Numenor!  Also keep in mind that the Men in the East and South were greatly influenced by the Shadow and were hostile so I'm not too sure how keen they would have been on being colonized/assimilated.
Anyway, Sauron would probably have chosen to work in secret, spreading his influence ever farther, and building up his forces until he was ready. I also think that he would try to sow seeds of discontent among the newcomers (Elrond might prove to be a big obstacle though, so I doubt he'd succeed directly in Numenor, rather he would attempt to corrupt a newly established colony in Middle Earth).



> _Originally posted by Lhunithiliel _
> *As a territory - it couldn't have because of the sea. But they might have developed their civilization to such heights as to reach Tol Eressea and establish direct contacts with the Elves.
> *



They would not have been permitted to do so. And I wonder if the Numenoreans would ever grow so decadent and corrupted that they would start craving for immortaily, if Elrond was there? I think the wisdom of Elrond and his kin would have at least delayed the degradation, if not stopped it at all.



> _Originally posted by Celebthôl _
> *1) There would be no Rivendell, much of the last alliance, MAY have been affected, there would be no Arwen, and no sons or Elrond in the long term *



The sons of Elrond were not instrumental for the history of Arda, so why give them an honorary mention?  Arwen is another matter, but perhaps the races of Men and Elf would still have come together somehow?



> _Originally posted by Celebthôl _
> *and the ring would have been destroyed, they would have on gone on their merry-way to Valinor and that would have been that, no more heros etc. . .
> *



Why do you think the ring would have been destroyed? Would there have been forces enough to assail Sauron like the Last Alliance assailed him? Perhaps....as I said, it doesn't necessarily mean that Numenor would not exist if both Elrond and Elros chose the immortal life.


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## Celebthôl (Oct 6, 2003)

I dont know, but i always had the asumption that in the last alliance the goodies were more than a match for Saurons army *shrugs* who knows, but IF they did win, then the ring WOULD have been destroyed as Elves arent stupid enough to want to keep it, and they were wise enough to know its dangers.


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## Ithrynluin (Oct 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Celebthôl _
> *I dont know, but i always had the asumption that in the last alliance the goodies were more than a match for Saurons army *shrugs* who knows, but IF they did win, then the ring WOULD have been destroyed as Elves arent stupid enough to want to keep it, and they were wise enough to know its dangers. *



I agree, but you're excluding the existence of Numenor here. Numenor was not granted as a gift to Elros, but as a gift to all the Edain who fought alongside Elves against Morgoth. So if Elros chose to be a Man, I think that another leader could have emerged and started the tradition of Numenor.
Therefore....Men might still have been present at what would be the Last Alliance.


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## Beleg (Oct 8, 2003)

> What if both Elrond and Elros had chosen to belong to the race of Men?



Then we could have seen a joint Government, rather like Isuldur's and Anarion's in Gondor in late Second Age. 



> What if they both picked the Firstborn as their 'preference'?



Oh, the Edain would still have settled in Elenna, just ruled by someone else. There would have been an addition of one elf in the forces of Elves in Middleearth. In this case we don't know who would have ruled Imladris and Numenorean's mightn't be very welcome in Imladris because there will be no recognisble Kinship between the two. 

I can't see any startling increase in Numenorean might if Elrond had decided to stay human, infact for me it would have only increased the Quarells and hastened the decay. 





> So if Elros chose to be a Man, I think that another leader could have emerged and started the tradition of Numenor.



You mean an elf?


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## Arvedui (Oct 8, 2003)

Either way, I think there would not have been a Númenór.
Who should be The King? Elros? Elrond?
I think that Men would have been given a sanctuary in Middle-earth, where Elros and Elrond each would govern their own Kingdom. Come to think of it, that would have been a very interesting setting...
Unfortunately, I think that if that were so, more Elves would have left ME for Tol Eressëa.

No Arwen?
I really can't see a problem with that. Maybe PJ would, but not me.


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## Lhunithiliel (Oct 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> 
> Let's not forget that Sauron would still have been present in Middle-Earth and we can be sure that he would not be pleased with the splendour and prestige of Numenor!  Also keep in mind that the Men in the East and South were greatly influenced by the Shadow and were hostile so I'm not too sure how keen they would have been on being colonized/assimilated. Anyway, Sauron would probably have chosen to work in secret, spreading his influence ever farther, and building up his forces until he was ready. I also think that he would try to sow seeds of discontent among the newcomers (Elrond might prove to be a big obstacle though, so I doubt he'd succeed directly in Numenor, rather he would attempt to corrupt a newly established colony in Middle Earth).


True! But then again... Sauron would then be extremely careful! He would not have had so much freedom of actions. By himself he was not that much powerful. To win he needed souls to get them corrupted and turn them to his side. But if people lived in this "second Blessed Realm" (the first being in Valinor), would've they turned to the Dark Lord? Why would have they? ME is a vast territory and under the government of the two brothers in union and friendly relations with the Elves, the population would've prospered. Happy and satisfied people don't turn easily to evil. 
What would've he seduced them with?
>> New territories? (as was the case with the Easterlings) - I doubt it, for the large united kingdom would've been able to "conquer" peacefully new territories to the south, north and east and bring light and civilization there. Which means - steadier economy and a better life. What more to ask for?
>> Immortality? - I doubt this too. Living in a strong and prosperous kingdom *of mortals* that would've become the natural way of understanding the world around them and death would've been accepted as a natural phenomenon. I guess, because of the present of the Elves and the existing tales and legends about the Gods in the Undying lands somewhere in the West would've turned into a mythology and later, perhaps into a religion. But I doubt that they would've longed for being immortal. 
Besides, I think that the Elves would've sooner or later left ME. The whole vast continent would've been left for Men.



> They would not have been permitted to do so. And I wonder if the Numenoreans would ever grow so decadent and corrupted that they would start craving for immortaily, if Elrond was there? I think the wisdom of Elrond and his kin would have at least delayed the degradation, if not stopped it at all.


Common! Why not unleash our immagination?!   The Numenoreans would've kept their old island of Elenna and it was very much close to Tol Eressea! I am strongly inclined to think that even if they had that new great kingdom in ME, the old good Numenor would've not been abandoned! It could've turned into a "free zone"  where Elves and Men could've keep on meeting and exchanging news, knowledge, even goods! Why not?!!! Now... the New Numenoreans would've been so completely satisfied with what they would've had in the Great Lands that they would've never ever envy the Elves for anything!!! So, they would've not even think of invading the Lonely Isle and reach even further West. Having the whole world at disposal, what would've possibly made them (Men) assault Valinor? 
I guess also that in the course of this development of the new nation, the Valar would think that that was the *direct* influence by Eru. Who would dare oppose HIM?!!! They would've just remained Gods and would've kept away from the deals of the *VIP*-children.



> The sons of Elrond were not instrumental for the history of Arda, so why give them an honorary mention?  Arwen is another matter, but perhaps the races of Men and Elf would still have come together somehow?


Read my lines above.  



> Why do you think the ring would have been destroyed? Would there have been forces enough to assail Sauron like the Last Alliance assailed him? Perhaps....as I said, it doesn't necessarily mean that Numenor would not exist if both Elrond and Elros chose the immortal life.


Hmmm.. The Ring!!!!
Again, if we assume all was so as I ve described it, I guess the Elves, aided by Men and with an appropriate counsel by the Valar, would've found a way to overcome that peril.


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