# Undying lands...or not?



## Ithrynluin (Feb 15, 2003)

Upon re-reading _Aldarion and Erendis_ I stumbled upon this interesting bit:



> To Erendis they gave a pair of birds, grey, with golden beaks and feet. They sang sweetly one to another with many cadences never repeated through a long thrill of song; but if one were separated from the other, at once they flew together, and they would not sing apart.
> 'How shall I keep them?' said Erendis.
> 'Let them fly and be free,' answered the Eldar. 'For we have spoken to them and named you; and they will stay wherever you dwell. *They mate for their life, and that is long*. Maybe there will be many such birds to sing in the gardens of your children.'



The Eldar of Tol Eressëa gave these two birds as a gift for her marriage with Aldarion. It is visible from this passage that the birds live long, yet are mortal. Aren't the Undying lands supposed to be free of stain, decay and....death? Do creatures and plants die there, just like they do in Middle Earth (the only difference being that they live longer)? There have been a few cases of "natural" death in Aman of course (Miriel; Frodo, Bilbo, Sam...supposedly), but these are rather exceptions to the rule.


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## gate7ole (Feb 15, 2003)

Maybe Tol Eressea was considered a special part of the Undying Lands, permitting a kind of decay. As I have understood, what made the lands Undying was the dwelling of the Ainue on them. But on Tol Eressea I don't think that they marched often, thus these lands wee not completely free of death.
Of course I may be wrong and this passage might have slipped Tolkien's attention.


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 15, 2003)

Well, Tol Eressëa IS called "the easternmost of the Undying lands" I just cannot remember where this is said (someone please remind me!). Mortals were not allowed to set foot on it (notably the Numenoreans), so I don't see any difference from Aman. After the drowning of Numenor, the Undying Lands were removed from the circles of the world. And this naturally includes Eressëa.


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## hashberry (Feb 16, 2003)

*ooo! My specialist subject!*

well.... as i live in the halls of mandos, which are located in the undying lands, i should know this one......

the undying lands were once part of arda alongside middle earth, so therefore it was possible to die there (like miriel). BUT when numenor was drownded and the world became round, then Aman (the undying lands) became set out of reach of non elvish boats, so it became, if u like, a 2nd heaven: even mortals that are granted leave to go their by manwe & co. become immortal. Because its a timeless place, you never really get bored.

So legolas and gimlet and bilbo frodo and sam r all there. Unfortunately the straight road is shut now, so no one can access it.

Im in the halls of mandos because i am hashberry, muddy-puddle daughter, maiar spirit and part elven, so wen i threw myself into the abyss of the "unknown zone", i went there instead. Its not that fun tho, u dont get 2 visit the alive elves, & theres neva ne1 new.


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## Inderjit S (Feb 16, 2003)

hashberry-gimlet? You've been reading too much Bored of the Ring. Say hi to Tim, by the way. And try not to get high. There are clinics for your's and Tim's problem you know.


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## hashberry (Apr 10, 2003)

*in eply to the undying lands (feb)*

as i said, i'm dead. Tim spent too much time in "Amsterdam of Hobbiton" to bother about me. He doesn't care, the portayal in bored of the rings was all wrong; and as for the _problem_ , I sorted that out years ago.

Bored of the rings is cool, but Gimlet's only called that by me cos it's better then "Giblet"


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## Confusticated (Apr 10, 2003)

Well I haven't read that tale but I think "They mate for their life, and that is long.'' could be said about the elves as well.


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 10, 2003)

So "Undying Lands" really means "the land where life is long" then...


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## Lantarion (Apr 10, 2003)

I normally assumed that the term 'Undying' was coigned from the immortality of the Valar who dwelt there.. It is said in the Silmarillion that the holiness of the land was because of the inhabitants.. Did this mean the Elves or the gods? Or both?


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## Melko Belcha (Apr 10, 2003)

*Re: ooo! My specialist subject!*



> _Originally posted by hashberry _
> * even mortals that are granted leave to go their by manwe & co. become immortal.*



Mortals did not become immortal just because they came to Aman, only Iluvatar had the power to cange the fates of the Children.

Letters #154


> But in the story it is supposed that there may be certain rare exceptions or accommodations (legitimately supposed? there always seem to be exceptions); and so certain 'mortals', who played some great part in Elvish affairs' may pass with the Elves to Elvenhome. Thus Frodo (by the express gift of Arwen) and Bilbo, and eventually Sam (as adumbrated by Frodo); and a a unique exception Gimli the Dwarf, as friend of Legolas and 'servant' of Galadriel.
> I have said nothing about it in this book, but the mythical idea underlying is that for mortals, since their 'kind' cannot be changed for ever, this is strictly only a temporary reward: a healing and redress of suffering. They cannot abide for ever, and though they cannot return to mortal earth, they can and will 'die'- of free will, and leave the world.


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## Inderjit S (Apr 11, 2003)

> Because its a timeless place, you never really get bored.



Nope. It still shared the same characteristics as the rest of Arda, including time. The difference being that one Valian Year was equivalent to just over 9 years of the sun.



> For Aman was within Arda and therfore within the time of Arda...Therefore Arda and all things in it must age....


 Myths Transformed; HoME 10

On the actual question, M.T has some answers:



> But since Aman was made for the Valar...all those creatures that were thither transplanted or were trained or were bred or brought into being for the purpouse of inhabiation in Aman were given a speed of growth such that one year of their kinds on earth should in Aman be in one year



We can see that Tolkien was hinting at the longeveal life of animals/plants in Aman. So, if we take the 1 Valian Year is equivalent to 9 Y.O.S, then 'life' in Aman would be nine times longer then that of M-E. This was done so they could fit in with the 'slow' growth of Aman, and also for the Elves:



> For the Eldar this was a source of joy. For in Aman the world appeared as it does to Men on Earth, but without the shadow of death soon to come. Whereas on Earth to them all things in comparison to themselves are fleeting....while flowers and birds would be born and die in loar and loar under the wheeling Sun.



So there was death in Aman, but it only aplied to animals/flower with no fea. As Finrod himself tells 
Andreth, though their passing was mourned it wasn't a tragedy on the level of the death of a incarnate.


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