# Was Ilúvatar upset at anytime with the evil thoughts and meanings from MELKOR?



## fëanáro (Jan 25, 2002)

I have no idea, i would have to read the first chapters of the Silmarillion very closely to make sure.
but i want to make my point of view out of yours. instead.


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## Tyaronumen (Jan 25, 2002)

Melkor is a cog in the wheel of Iluvatar. He is not even a separate entity from Iluvatar as far as my interpretation is concerned... My interpretation would be that everything is Iluvatar and thus cannot controvert His will.


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## Beleg Strongbow (Jan 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by fëanáro _
> *I have no idea, i would have to read the first chapters of the Silmarillion very closely to make sure.
> but i want to make my point of view out of yours. instead. *




I'm not to sure either but he wouldn't like what Melkor did. Remember Manwe was sort of like the herald of Iluvatar and he new his mind best did he not despise him then show pity? 
P.S Isn't god always supposed to love everyone and forgive them? hehehe


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## Snaga (Jan 25, 2002)

The answer is yes - see Ainulindale. Not sure I go with either of your yes options. Too simplistic for me. I don't really understand but Iluvatar gets very angry with Melkor for challenging his themes, but it doesn't make sense to me yet. Noone has given me a really good explanation of this yet.

I'll have to abstain.


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## Tyaronumen (Jan 25, 2002)

Good point about Eru seeming angry Variag... maybe he was just acting?


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## fëanáro (Jan 26, 2002)

So is there anyone who can be really sure about this?


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## Feanor (Jan 26, 2002)

>Melkor is a cog in the wheel of Iluvatar. He is not even a separate entity from Iluvatar as far as my interpretation is concerned... My interpretation would be that everything is Iluvatar and thus cannot controvert His will. 


I guess that throws free will right out the window. Free will, the one explanation and feeble defense you have for the existence of evil. 
Look, either you say there's evil bc of the gift of free will and therefore everything is NOT Eru and DOES controvert his will OR

There is no free will, and Eru uses evil in his designs- in which case I'm better off without him.

A third option is that there is some other reason above all this which we cannot fathom- in that case it is useless to discuss since we cannot know the answer. 

You can't have your cake, um, you can't have your lembas and eat it too!


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## Confusticated (Dec 10, 2002)

While I think that Melkor was doing Iluvatar's will if Manwe and the others ever were, I do think that they were capable of upsetting Iluvatar.
If one thinks, as I do, that Melkor was of a dark side of Iluvatar, and that much of Iluvatar was 'good' in the way that Manwe was, then I can only assume that the good portions of Iluvatar would be unhappy about the evil manifstation of his thought that was Melkor.
The idea that both good and 'evil' were born of Iluvatar's thought causes me to think that Iluvatar would have conflicts just like all of us humans do.

I can only measure Iluvatar according to my nature as a human, I can not know his true nature but only guess at it.


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## Húrin Thalion (Dec 10, 2002)

Would illuvatar allow the breeding of the orcs and still love Melkor? Doesn't the Silmarillion say that this was the deed of Melkor which Eru thought was most terrible of all?

Húrin Thalion


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## Gil-Galad (Dec 10, 2002)

My personal opinion is that Iluvatar knew what would happen.,because everything was in his thoughts.At the same time all things that happen had one aim->to teach people how to survive,because the world was made for them.
He probably was upset,but not because he didn't know what was going to happen,but because he wasn't sure whether it was going to happen in the right way.


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 14, 2003)

If we go by option number 4: "No, as Melkor and everything came out of his thoughts, he had it all planed out." Wouldn't that mean that Ilúvatar is guilty (in some sense) of allowing so much harm and hurt to happen to so many innocent people? I know that out of all evil, good came out, and that is Ilúvatar's plan. But if I was one of the people that were so grievously hurt by Melkor, I'm not sure I would have been very keen on being tormented and made miserable all my life, even if good was to come out of it.
Shouldn't Eru have restrained Melkor early on? There would be no story, but still.


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## Confusticated (Feb 14, 2003)

Restrain early on?
Why do that? He let Melkor be in the first place.
I do not doubt that Iluvatar aimed that his greatest Auinu fall. But even if he didn't want it to happen, why didn't he throw Melkor into a void as soon as he knew what was in his heart?

Because Iluvatar wanted Melkor to cause hell in Arda.

Who says Iluvatar is kind? Does Tolkien ever say it?

Who says that Melkor wasn't right - maybe he had a point. Perhaps he knew something about Eru that the others did not.

Maybe Melkor wanted to be good but couldn't. Maybe he saw something bad in Iluvatar.


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Nóm _
> *
> Who says Iluvatar is kind? Does Tolkien ever say it?
> *



I thought that was a given for the God/Creator of the world. Is it not so with the Christian God? And Tolkien was a Christian, and he molded much of his characters after his religion.

I like your thoughts about Ilúvatar, though I doubt they hold much water.


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## Confusticated (Feb 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *I thought that was a given for the God/Creator of the world. Is it not so with the Christian God? And Tolkien was a Christian, and he molded much of his characters after his religion.
> 
> I like your thoughts about Ilúvatar, though I doubt they hold much water. *


Of course they don't hold water 1) they're an abstract thing and 2) I'm a fool, which you well know. 

A given that the creator would be kind? I don't see this, explain it better. 

Creator = kind

hmm... Nope.


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 14, 2003)

God in Christianity and Ilúvatar in Tolkien's world bear a resemblance to me. Why are they worshipped/held in reverence if they are not positive and kind and all mighty?

Or do you mean that they are forces of Good but still not kind?

For example, Ilúvatar changed the fate of Lúthien, ressurected Beren, gave Tuor an immortal life, all this so that his "children" could be happy. That's kind. They did achieve a whole lot before being granted these "rewards" though, so his motives might not be kindness but repaying them for acting out his plan. Is that what you mean, at least approximately?


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## Confusticated (Feb 15, 2003)

> Or do you mean that they are forces of Good but still not kind?



I don't think that Iluvatar has to be a purely good force, he can just be a force. He made the the Ainur of his thought, and of them only Manwe is known to have been free of evil.



> God in Christianity and Ilúvatar in Tolkien's world bear a resemblance to me. Why are they worshipped/held in reverence if they are not positive and kind and all mighty?



I don't know about a resemblance, but that is probably all it is - a resemblance.

Sure they are worshipped but so is Melkor, and even some people literally worship and revere Satan.


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## Celebithil (Mar 8, 2003)

I seem to remeber Eru being mad at Melkor about the discord in the song and stuff and I don't think he knew what would happen specifically. He may have had an idea but his creation were all made with the flame imperishable so they had their own freewill and I don't believe even Eru knew everything that would happen. If so must be a boring eternity.


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## HelplessModAddi (Mar 12, 2003)

Eru is only mad if Tolkein is. My personal cosmology is that the universe itself is God's "fantasy world," a giant fanfic, if you will, even though its not imitating anything.

Aren't evil people sometimes the best characters?

Also, if you are a philosopher, you should realize that good and evil define each other. Good is the lack of evil and evil is the lack of good. It's a casuality paradox. Without Melkor, there would be no reason for us to revere Manwe.


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## Gil-Galad (Mar 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by HelplessModAddi _
> *
> Also, if you are a philosopher, you should realize that good and evil define each other. Good is the lack of evil and evil is the lack of good. *


Is that your thought or you are paraphrasing someone you and I have read.


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## HelplessModAddi (Mar 14, 2003)

> Is that your thought or you are paraphrasing someone you and I have read.


 Both. I've had that thought as long as I've known that -4 + 4 = 0. But I've read it alot, too.


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## elf boy (Mar 19, 2003)

I said he hates evil, it just seems to make sense to me... Maybe it was planned out but i think Iluvatar just doesn't like evil... anyway if it was planned it would of been in his... theme i guess ya could call it when Ea was created, not Melkor's.


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## Gil-Galad (Mar 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by HelplessModAddi _
> *Both. I've had that thought as long as I've known that -4 + 4 = 0. But I've read it alot, too. *


I've read quite similar thought,that is why I asked you such question.


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## Eriol (Mar 25, 2003)

> Also, if you are a philosopher, you should realize that good and evil define each other. Good is the lack of evil and evil is the lack of good. It's a casuality paradox. Without Melkor, there would be no reason for us to revere Manwe.



Well, I am something of a philosopher (aren't we all?), and I don't agree. See, this reasoning does not take existence into account. If evil and good are equal in stature (ontologically), then why would anything BE? Or as another philosopher put it, the great question is "why there is something as opposed to nothing?" If you agree that good and evil are equal, you can't answer this.

However, if you agree that good is the will of the Creator (that is, the will of the Creator _defines_ Good itself), then you see that Good has prior existence and is higher, ontologically, than evil. (sorry about the big words).

On the subject of the thread: Eru created everything, including the Ainur, out of love. This is why things and spirits exist: Eru loves them. All explanations about the Universe being a plaything for God's amusement assume that God needs amusement, and therefore is not self-sufficient, therefore, not perfect.

(I know I conflated Eru and the Christian God here... sorry about it, but like ithrynluin has said, I think they are the same and that Tolkien intended them to be the same. A debatable proposition for sure).

So. Eru loves Melkor at the beginning -- otherwise why would he create him? A pivotal point in this question is that God does not creates things that don't have value in themselves, in other words, he does not create evil things. Things become evil, but are not created evil. The same happens with Melkor, who was not created evil (several quotes attest to that -- but I can't give them now, I'm without the books, sorry).

On the other hand, Eru/God _is_ justice. Note, I am not saying that he loves justice, he IS justice. And therefore he cannot avoid being against an unjust deed, or an evil deed. It would be as if he denied that he is God. 

My answer to the question is this, then: Eru can never be "upset", as I understand the word, meaning annoyed at something that is going contrary to his will. But Melkor most assuredly is going contrary to his will. So justice demands that Melkor be punished. Eru is all-knowing, and knows that Melkor will be punished for his evil deeds. But this does not "upset" him, insamuch as it is a consequence of what he is: justice. 

(By the way, Eru still loves Melkor, meaning he still wishes that Melkor would repent and help with the remaking of Arda. But it won't happen... and Eru knows it.)


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