# Great Rings? Lesser Rings?



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 12, 2022)

I don't know about you, but there seem to be some misunderstandings here:



Redirect Notice



(This is probably a silly post to make, but what the heck. 😄)


----------



## Goldilocks Gamgee (Apr 12, 2022)

I read it, and I think the statement, "...made them lust filled and power-hungry ... exactly the same way it did to Smeagol," raises a lot of suspicious.
As far as I can remember, Gollum was not power-hungry, and definitely not lust-filled!


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 12, 2022)

Well, the Rings give the possessors power "according to their stature" and Smeagol's was very small. But there is a point in the story where his head does get filled with the Ring's deluded visions: "Gollum the Great? THE Gollum?".

One of the "misunderstandings" I think I see here is that the author appears to believe the "lesser rings" are the other 19, but Gandalf's words to Frodo, in "The Shadow of the Past" rule that out -- at least in my reading of the passage. I've been looking for old threads on the subject, but haven't had much luck so far.


----------



## Will Whitfoot (Apr 13, 2022)

I think it's quite clear in the text that all of the nine and the seven, as well as the three and the one are, in fact, "great rings. In one passage of FOTR Gandalf opens the discussion about Bilbo's Ring:



> 'No, but I had to badger you,' said Gandalf. 'I wanted the truth. It
> was important. Magic rings are - well, magical; and they are rare and
> curious.* I was professionally interested in your ring*, you may say; and I
> still am. I should like to know where it is, if you go wandering again. Also
> ...




Later, Frodo asks for more details about the ring:



> 'Last night you began to tell me strange things about my ring,
> Gandalf,' he said. 'And then you stopped, because you said that such matters
> were best left until daylight. Don't you think you had better finish now?
> You say the ring is dangerous, far more dangerous than I guess. In what
> ...



Even Gandalf, with his far more thorough and accurate knowledge of magical things, was surprised at how powerful the One Ring actually was, and discusses a bit of ring lore:



> 'In Eregion long ago many Elven-rings were made, magic rings as you
> call them, and they were, of course, of various kinds: some more potent and
> some less. * The lesser rings were only essays in the craft before it was
> full-grown, and to the Elven-smiths they were but trifle*s - yet still to my
> ...



So we know that the "great Rings" offer long life... but it is unclear whether they ALL offer invisibility, though Gandalf here suggests it. Surely the three do not, for Galadriel was completely visible while wearing one of the Three, while the ring itself was invisible. It is possible that invisibility is a power of the Great Rings that one must learn to use, rather than an innate attribute, as it seems to be with the One. We know that the nine rendered their bearers into wraiths, invisible to human eyes, but we do not know much about the powers of the seven, nor where they ended up, except that Sauron got hold of them... presumably with the purpose to corrupt other dwarves to his fold.

My point is simply to confirm that all the nine, the seven, the three and the one* are* the "Great Rings", but that there also exist "many" lesser magic rings with lesser powers (and lesser dangers). Gandalf was "professionally interested" in ALL of them of course. But the idea that the seven and nine are "lesser rings" would be to perpetuate the lie of the Great Deceiver Anatar and to fall into that trap and the lure of greed and lust for power.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 13, 2022)

Thanks for posting the quotes, Will -- I did intend to get around to it, but I'm lazy!

Tolkien stated (in a letter, I believe) that the Three don't confer invisibility, though there remains some ambiguity-- what effects might they have on a _mortal _who wore one?


----------



## Olorgando (Apr 13, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Tolkien stated (in a letter, I believe) that the Three don't confer invisibility, though there remains some ambiguity-- what effects might they have on a _mortal _who wore one?


The Three were never tainted by Sauron. Celebrimbor passed them on to Galadriel, Cirdan and Gil-galad, the latter two ending up at the end of the Third Age with Gandalf and Elrond. So their effects on mortals are speculative.
The other sixteen Great Rings were created with "Annatar's" input, so *were* tainted by his influence. Just how Sauron chose the Seven for Dwarves and the Nine for Men is not made clear by JRRT. But at least as far as the creations of his former boss Aulë are concerned, the Dwarves, he hugely miscalculated. What we are sort of missing from "The Hobbit" is a Tom Bombadil-style situation - here that one of the Dwarves puts on the One Ring (yes I know - it was not the OR in TH yet!) but stays visible ...


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 13, 2022)

Interesting question. Given that the One was made by Sauron alone, I think my vote's for making even a Dwarf invisible.

Tom's a unique case, being essentially "outside the story", if you know what I mean.


----------



## James the Just (Apr 13, 2022)

Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Five Rings for the Gnome-princes over the sea,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men, doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.


----------



## grendel (Apr 13, 2022)

"The Nine, the Seven, and the Three," he [Saruman] said, "had each their proper gem. Not so the One. It was round and unadorned, as it were one of the lesser rings; but its maker set marks upon it that the skilled, maybe, could still see and read."

The Seven and the Nine here look pretty unadorned; another inaccuracy, maybe?


----------



## Will Whitfoot (Apr 14, 2022)

James the Just said:


> Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
> *Five Rings for the Gnome-princes over the sea,*
> Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
> Nine for Mortal Men, doomed to die,
> ...


Wait wait.... The "Gnome-princes?" Where did that come from? Do you mean Santa Claus and the five-golden rings of Yuletide lore? Or are we talking of the Istari?


----------



## Olorgando (Apr 14, 2022)

Will Whitfoot said:


> James the Just said:
> 
> 
> > Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
> ...


Perhaps another Amazon "improvement" ... 🤢


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 14, 2022)

Well, the Noldor were originally "Gnomes" until Tolkien thought better of it.

But we'll have to wait for James to give us the explanation.


----------



## Olorgando (Apr 14, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Well, the Noldor were originally "Gnomes" until Tolkien thought better of it.


They were "Gnomes" in BoLT volumes 1 and 2, perhaps in "Lays of Beleriand" and a bit later.
By the time JRRT wrote LoTR, the term "Gnomes" for the Noldor had long gone out the window ...


----------



## Will Whitfoot (Apr 15, 2022)

I'm still intrigued about the "five". Were they perhaps considered among the "lesser" rings? Or were there translations in other languages that included that line, or am I just reading too much into this?


----------



## James the Just (Apr 15, 2022)

The Three Rings of the Elves obviously represent three of the four classical elements. They're named Narya (meaning 'fire'; worn by Gandalf), Vilya ('air'; worn by Elrond), and Nenya ('water'; worn by Galadriel). Conspicuously missing is the Ring of Earth. 
The elements were thought to have certain qualities: earth was cold and dry; water, cold and wet; air, hot and wet; fire, hot and dry. 
The list of the Rings of Power has a gaping hole between the Rings of the Elves and the Rings of the Dwarves. Five are missing; Gondya, Ringya, Hithya, Urya, and Lithya.
These Rings played no part in the events described in the _Red Book of the Periannath_ and so were not mentioned. Perhaps the Ithryn Luin can tell us what became of them.


----------



## Elthir (Apr 15, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> They were "Gnomes" in BoLT volumes 1 and 2, perhaps in "Lays of Beleriand" and a bit later.
> By the time JRRT wrote LoTR, the term "Gnomes" for the Noldor had long gone out the window . . .



I don't *gno* about this summation, as Tolkien continued to use the word in the drafts for _The Lord of the Rings _(Faramir uses a word translated as Gnomes, for example) -- and even in the penultimate version of Appendix F (_On Translation_), Tolkien explained why he had elsewhere (in _The Hobbit_) already _published_ the word, even if he now thought it too misleading.

In any case, Tolkien couldn't wholly give up this connection to gnome and knowledge, considering that Beor's people called the Elven-king Felagund *Nóm*, "Wisdom", and his people they called *Nómin*, "the Wise".


----------



## Olorgando (Apr 15, 2022)

Elthir said:


> I don't *gno* about this summation, as Tolkien continued to use the word in the drafts for _The Lord of the Rings ..._


OK, I'll change that to "had written LoTR". All parts of HoMe referring to it are a special case in that we here *do* have the final version with the author's seal of approval (and that bit with the second edition ...). One thing it clearly shows (at least Tom Shippey noticed it) is that JRRT could be pigheadedly stubborn about retaining names when they no longer fit the changed character (that "Trotter" for Aragorn bit). I can well imagine C.S. Lewis occasionally groaning "Tollers, *puh-leeze*!" (accompanied by non-too-subtle rolling of eyes).


----------



## Olorgando (Apr 15, 2022)

James the Just said:


> The list of the Rings of Power has a gaping hole between the Rings of the Elves and the Rings of the Dwarves.


The seven rings for the Dwarves are straight-forward: the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves created by Aulë, so one for each of their descendants as rulers.
The three rings for the elves are a bit less clear, but there is a plausible explanation: Vilya for the Vanyar, associated with Manwë; Narya for the Noldor, associated with Aulë; Nenya for the Teleri, associated with Ulmo.
With the nine rings for men, I do not have an idea how these could be explained in a similar fashion as the seven and the three.

But at least there is a set of rings for all three of the races that Sauron wanted to force under his rule. For whom would he need the hypothesized five?


----------



## Will Whitfoot (Apr 16, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> But at least there is a set of rings for all three of the races that Sauron wanted to force under his rule. For whom would he need the hypothesized five?


I'm going out on a limb here, but presumably the Holbytlan. Perhaps Gandalf was not alone in perceiving a deep spiritual strength in the clans of Hobbits living "under the radar" throughout the west of Middle-earth. But the power and character of the FIVE was not of a nature to bring power to the bearer, and so was not useful to Sauron, and they never came under his sway, relegated to the role of "lesser rings". I suggest that they have long been held in The Shire by the Mayor, the Thain, The Master, and other influential Hobbits. Indeed that they were influential in the phenomenon of The Gathering, when the Hobbits came to The Shire from the far flung vales of the West, and settled it. I suggest that the powers of the FIVE consists of encouraging cooperation, goodness, contentment, perseverance, joy, and conviviality... all powers that would be sneered at by such as Sauron.


----------



## Olorgando (Apr 16, 2022)

Will Whitfoot said:


> I'm going out on a limb here, but presumably the Holbytlan. Perhaps Gandalf was not alone in perceiving a deep spiritual strength in the clans of Hobbits living "under the radar" throughout the west of Middle-earth.


Well, for one, JRRT split them into into "three somewhat different breeds" before they crossed the _{Misty}_ mountains - as per the Prologue part 1 "Concerning Hobbits" in Fellowship. This follows a pattern in JRRT's writings, as he also had divided the Elves and the Edain into three houses.

That crossing of the mountains must have been around the year 1050 Third Age, as per Appendix B "The Tale of Years" section "The Third Age":
"The Periannath are first mentioned in records, with the coming of the Harfoots to Eriador."

Another thing they had in common with the Elves (at least most of them) and the Edain, migrating west from their (in their case unknown) place of origin. It's another 550 years before the start settling the Shire. 1601 Third Age + (3441 - 1200 Second Age) = 3,842 years between the Elven smiths of Eregion being won over by Sauron and the settlement of the Shire - and the Hobbits certainly didn't have the offices of Mayor and Master of Buckland from the word go, perhaps the Thain - oops, no, it wasn't until 1979 Third Age that "Bucca of the Marish becomes first Thain of the Shire." After the demise of Arvedui last-king of Arthedain in 1975 Third Age.

So we're looking at roughly 4,000 years of foresight - by whom? Or who - as you concede, it would hardly have been Sauron - had traveled east (how far is anyone's wild guess) to distribute those five rings to ancestral Hobbits (would they have been able even to *find *any if these had decided not to roll out the welcome mat to visitors?)? For that matter, how the seven rings of the Dwarves ended up with the respective rulers is also very much an open question ...


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 16, 2022)

Fun idea on hobbits, but "over the sea" would seem to rule that out, as does "gnome-princes", which can only mean the Noldor.

The reference to the Istari brings the "five" into alignment, but we're into basically fanfic here -- if interesting fanfic.

James has been at this for a while, I see:









Rings of Power - Tolkien Forums


Rings of Power



tolkienforums.activeboard.com





(It's the last post at the bottom of the page.)


----------



## Erestor Arcamen (Apr 16, 2022)

If anyone's interested, here are a few older discussions on this same topic that are pretty interesting:









The lesser Rings


If a mortal put on one of the lesser rings would he turn invisible?:confused:




www.thetolkienforum.com













Lesser Rings


In SotP, Gandalf talks about the lesser rings of power being mere trinkets to the Elves who made them but to his mind still dangerous to mortals. Did Tolkien ever elaborate on these rings?




www.thetolkienforum.com













Ring invisibility a side effect?


I am interested as to if Ring invisibility shows that the wearer has neither the will nor the power to control the Ring that he/she bears. Here are a few quotes: "'In Eregion long ago many Elven-rings were made, magic rings as you call them, and they were , of course, of various kinds: some...




www.thetolkienforum.com





In this one, since members think the seven and the nine were the"lesser rings" made by the elves before forging the three:








Were the Seven and the Nine Rings ..


Do you think that the Seven and Nine Rings originally intended for Dwarves and Men? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts before I give mine :)




www.thetolkienforum.com


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 16, 2022)

Thanks, EA. I'd looked at the first couple after entering a search for "Lesser Rings" and not found much of use there.


As for the third, my, my -- things got a bit personal in the old days! 😄


----------



## Erestor Arcamen (Apr 17, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Thanks, EA. I'd looked at the first couple after entering a search for "Lesser Rings" and not found much of use there.
> 
> 
> As for the third, my, my -- things got a bit personal in the old days! 😄


----------



## James the Just (Apr 18, 2022)

Here's a better image of the elements and qualities.







Wikipedia has this chart in 'Rings of Power.'






Here's another way to look at it.






Doesn't this make more sense?






Who are the Gnomes? That's hard to say. They could be the Noldor. From the _Silmarillion_.

Thus it was that Men called King Felagund, whom they met first of all the Eldar, Nóm, that is Wisdom, in the language of that people, and after him they named his folk Nómin, the Wise.

But what if the men were in the habit of referring to any Elf as a Gnome? They certainly encountered them before. Cannot the Avari have their own Rings of Power? In Norse mythology they even have their own world.

Nine Worlds:
Asgard
Alfheim
Muspellsheim
Svartalfheim
Jotunheim
Nidavellir
Niflheim
Vanaheim

I wonder if they resembled the Gnomes of Paracelsus.

Parcelsus' elementals:
Salamander (fire)
Sylph (air)
Undine (water)
Gnome (earth)


----------



## Lómelindë Lindórië (May 2, 2022)

Goldilocks Gamgee said:


> I read it, and I think the statement, "...made them lust filled and power-hungry ... exactly the same way it did to Smeagol," raises a lot of suspicious.
> As far as I can remember, Gollum was not power-hungry, and definitely not lust-filled!


Sméagol was actually a very kind hobbit with his brother Déagol..._until he found the One._


----------



## Goldilocks Gamgee (May 2, 2022)

Miriel Amaniel said:


> his brother Déagol


Deagol wasn't Smeagol's brother, as far as I remember.

They were best friends.


----------



## Lómelindë Lindórië (May 2, 2022)

Goldilocks Gamgee said:


> Deagol wasn't Smeagol's brother, as far as I remember.
> 
> They were best friends.


 I guess I'm better at knowledge with _The Silmarillion _then-


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (May 2, 2022)

They were friends, not necessarily related, and not brothers, IIRC.

It was Deagol who found the Ring; Smeagol murdered him to get it.

BTW, Gandalf says nothing, one way or another, about his character, before his acquisition of it, other than that "he was the most inquisitive and curious-minded of the family", and "his head and his eyes were downward".


----------



## Goldilocks Gamgee (May 2, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> "he was the most inquisitive and curious-minded of the family", and "his head and his eyes were downward".


The first part could be positive, but the second part is shady.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (May 2, 2022)

Maybe it was intended that way. But it's certainly open to interpretation.


----------



## grendel (May 2, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> BTW, Gandalf says nothing, one way or another, about his character, before his acquisition of it, other than that "he was the most inquisitive and curious-minded of the family", and "his head and his eyes were downward".


Gandalf also said "He became sharp-eyed and keen-eared for all that was hurtful. The ring had given him power according to his stature."

This was AFTER he took the ring (in a violent act), but I read it as the ring bringing out the worst part of the character _that was already in him_. But, as you say, it's open to interpretation.


----------

