# Guilds?



## Ithrynluin

What does everyone think of reviving the guilds that once were an integral part of this site?

I am envisioning them as part of the TTF Debating Society forum, their main aim to organize teams that would debate each other. "Ordinary" discussions would not be a part of these guilds (as was the case in the former ones) since we have more than enough forums for that already, they would concentrate on debating but also fellowship between the members of each guild (not including spam of course).

Each guild could have a unique name and characteristics or we could borrow from the old guilds (The Guild of Scholars, Tolkienology, Ost-in-Edhil, Periaur, Outcasts and more)...

There is hardly any activity in the TTF Debating Society, so this idea may not meet much interest either.


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## Maeglin

I'm not sure this would do anything to boost site activity. It sounds like it would just be adding to the Debating society, which is already just a branch off of the old TolkienDebates site that was very short-lived. I don't see the need to revive the guilds.


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## HLGStrider

It depends on how we revived it. I remember there were the RPG guilds and those wouldn't have a huge purpose now. Those were the only ones I ever belonged to. The other guilds seemed to be divided into age groups mainly. I think there would have to be some clearer form of division if we have them, and really division isn't what we need. 

Guild of Tolkienology was an exception, I guess, but that sort of became an elite circle which some people took much too seriously.


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## baragund

Adding to the points raised by Elgee and Maeglin, I saw the Guilds as a way to create smaller, more manageable groups of members. Back in the heyday, this site was rather intimidating, with a seemingly vast number of members and a vast number of discussions of all kinds. The Guilds broke all of that activity into bite-sized pieces. 

I'm not sure there is enough activity at present to warrant further splitting of the membership.


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## Seregon

Speaking of low site activity... is there anything really being done about this, or that can be done? I agree, the guilds would be fabulous, if we had more people, but at if we only have truly 'active' members in them, would we really have anything *but* guildleaders?


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## Maeglin

No Seregon, there really isn't anything we can do about guild activity. We can hope more people stumble across the site and have interest in Tolkien and the site and then decide to post, but that is a lot to hope for considering that we have covered just about every point you can bring up about the books on this site. The thing that had the forums really booming in the first place was the release of the films, but since those are now gone, activity has drastically died down. All we can do now is wait for the Hobbit movie and hope some more people show up.


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## Bethelarien

Activity would, in my opinion, be helped by several things. (Mentioning this, as I'm basically inactive on this board these days.)

1) Non-elitism. I remember this with a great deal of irritation. I don't know if it's still a problem, since I don't really visit this site anymore, but that really grated on my nerves. If the atmosphere is more welcoming, more people will...well, feel welcome.

2) Better, more involved debates. This was one of the redeeming qualities of this site, in my opinion, before the debates went dead. They were intelligent, usually well thought-out questions and arguments. I miss that. Build the structured debates back up, and you'll likely bring back some of the members (e.g., me).

3) Better RPGs. No offense meant, but the RPGs on this site right now are either mostly lighthearted or just don't seem to have a great plotline. Give me something I can really sink my teeth into. I'm dying for a good RPG like the ones we had during the reign of MERPG. 

Give me one or two of these, and you'll have me, at least, back in a heartbeat.


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## HLGStrider

It's a bit of a catch-22. We need more activity to attract new members but we need new members to create activity.


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## Barliman Butterbur

Ithrynluin said:


> What does everyone think of reviving the guilds that once were an integral part of this site?



Try a poll. See what the responses would be.

Barley


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## Lhunithiliel

Ithrynluin said:


> What does everyone think of reviving the guilds that once were an integral part of this site?
> 
> I am envisioning them as part of the TTF Debating Society forum, their main aim to organize teams that would debate each other. "Ordinary" discussions would not be a part of these guilds (as was the case in the former ones) since we have more than enough forums for that already, they would concentrate on debating but also fellowship between the members of each guild (not including spam of course).
> 
> Each guild could have a unique name and characteristics or we could borrow from the old guilds (The Guild of Scholars, Tolkienology, Ost-in-Edhil, Periaur, Outcasts and more)...
> 
> There is hardly any activity in the TTF Debating Society, so this idea may not meet much interest either.



Ha!
Not that I care, but it's cruelly ironic to read this suggestion by someone, who was so passionate about and eventually very successful in closing the guilds!

If it were not for some people who "_took much too seriously"_ those communities (_indeed HLGStrider; but then ... we had all our reasons and right to do so!)_, all the efforts that had been made and everything that had been achieved in the guilds would've gone in vain, and the TTF section of "elite" scholarly which you have now - the Halls of Tolkienology - the heir of the Guild of Tolkienology, would've never existed, again - were it not for the persistence of those people.
And to just remind that it took closing the guilds to realize how much was lost.

Finally, I'm sorry to say it *Ithy*, but first - you shall not be able to revive the guilds, not in their previous splendour - you have not the people for that!; and second - try a fresh idea, especially after you had ruined other people's achievements. 

Oh! And sorry for being the "horrid she-Nazgul" again  ... but I was once stigmatized as such, so I have to keep up my "image"  

Joking aside however, all that I have said above is vey true!


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## Ithrynluin

My suggestion is not to revive the guilds "in their previous splendour", but to create something different and on a far smaller scale than before. As I said, these guilds would be part of the debating forum, and they would center first and foremost on debating and fun activities between members, i.e. not discussing Tolkien's works, as there are forums for that. It's quite nice to see you pop back in, Lhunithiliel; as for the rest of your post, however, you're entitled to hold your opinion, but a reference to the attached image will suffice as a response better than any tedious rehashing of old quarrells.


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## Barliman Butterbur

Pardon me if I run the risk of beating a dead horse (in reference to your Post #11), but I do think you ought to answer Lhun's charge: "... it's cruelly ironic to read this suggestion by someone, who was so passionate about and eventually very successful in closing the guilds!" before going any further. I for one would certainly be interested in the response.

Barley


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## Ithrynluin

You'll have to pardon me in turn -- we're running a PG-13 board here, so unfortunately I could not express succinctly enough what I think of those "charges".


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## Barliman Butterbur

Ithrynluin said:


> You'll have to pardon me in turn -- we're running a PG-13 board here, so unfortunately I could not express succinctly enough what I think of those "charges".



LOL!  

Barley


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## Ermundo

Ithrynluin said:


> You'll have to pardon me in turn -- we're running a PG-13 board here, so unfortunately I could not express succinctly enough what I think of those "charges".



Zat was za first class joke.


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## YayGollum

I never was a large fan of guildses, even though I made my own.  Any discussion that I saw going on in one of them looked like something that could have gone in a common area. Sure, guilds are usually open for everyone (no evil age-specific guilds!), but they'd obtain their regulars and humans would build up little mini-forums and look down on those who weren't a part of their guild. I avoided posting in such places but loved the material to come out of some of them, so mayhaps the baragund person knows what he's writing about when it comes to bite-sized sections? But then, the lack of activity does seem to be a good reason for not making all kinds of new sections. A suggestion (one that I have made before) ---> 

News, Announcements, New Members (it's all the same to me, as well as, are any of those sections especially active enough to warrant whole sections?)
Member Web Sites (if you must)
Stories That Came From Tolkien (why are different books in different sections, as well as, why are there general book discussion places and serious and more focused threads just for research?)
The Glittering Caves and The Prancing Pony type sections (why are these separate, anyways?)
Debateses
Movie Stuff
R. P. G. Stuff
Non-Tolkien Type Stuff
Archives

What, we have so many different sections just to look impressive? If anyone would actually check the sections that I am suggesting (or the subsections that might make the place a bit more organized), they'd still be able to find everything they'd ever want. I muchly enjoy the variety of this place, but spreading it out so much discourages me. 

Towards the idea of promoting debateses (which seems to be the ultimate goal of this thread), I don't see why we'd need anything called guilds. And guilds that are made mostly for the purpose of getting people into groups for debates wouldn't appeal to many, since not all looking for guilds are interested in debates. How's about (once decent debate ideas have been organized) we make little subsections in each of the major sections that I am suggesting just for rallying the people who frequent them? Sure, plenty can be found all over the place, but, just like those who were members of different guilds, it shouldn't be too hard to decide which section they'd like to debate for.


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## Ithrynluin

You're right, we may have too many forums. I've been looking at the forum layout and have moved the _Noldorin Forge_ forum into the Archives because:

a) it has hardly been posted in since it was placed there
b) it doesn't really serve any particular purpose, it doesn't have anything different to offer not already covered by the other forums.

The other forums to me look good. Personally, I like having a different forum for each of the different (major) works of JRRT. I think most people would agree to that, as well. I suppose you are suggesting that everything is in one forum?

The Hall of Fire is the general discussions forum where you can discuss things spanning more than just one book, for example, i.e. not book-specific.

Annals of the Eldanyare is for the more philosophical and mythological/religious facets of Tolkien's world

The Glittering Caves are different from the Prancing Pony in that they cater to Tolkien-related fan writings, drawings and such, whereas the Pony is for non-Tolkien stuff.

And so on and so forth...


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## YayGollum

For the book sections, yes, I would muchly enjoy tossing all book type discussions into one section. If you really felt like it, you could make little subsections, and the main one would be a The Hall Of Fire type place. I don't really see the point in spreading out so much, though. Looks like that Annals Of The Eldanyare place could easily fit into the book section/s I'm writing about. Why separate those things? As well as, yes, I understand the difference between the The Glittering Caves and The Prancing Pony sections. I just don't understand why they have been kept separate. They're both for displaying creativity. Would some humans recoil at the idea of non-Tolkien writings and wouldn't wish to jump into a section with such things just to get at a more Tolkien-related story? Or vice versa? 

Also, scary cat, dude!


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## Maedhros

> ) Better, more involved debates. This was one of the redeeming qualities of this site, in my opinion, before the debates went dead. They were intelligent, usually well thought-out questions and arguments. I miss that. Build the structured debates back up, and you'll likely bring back some of the members (e.g., me).


Thanks, it makes me happy that after all of this time, people remember fondly the debates that we used to have here. Many of the debate topics I thought them up myself. Jeje.

The bickering is why I left this site. But Ithrynluin, if you can come up with a good debate topic I would be happy to participate in it.


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## YayGollum

Greetings, all. I tossed a poll up there for you. Makes all kinds of sense. Just go with the last option. Very simple and sensible. Also, Maedhros person (and all others interested in debateses), check out this thread ---> http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?t=18933


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## Ithrynluin

Hail Maedhros!

There is currently and idea of a debate going on in the debate section. Check it out. I thought of it off the top of my head, and I'm not that good at considering the ramifications of each side, i.e. that they are equally balanced. Must be why I stink at chess. 

Frankly, I don't mind if one side is a bit more difficult to debate, but you can post your suggestions as to how it could be changed, if you think it's too unbalanced. There's also a thread in there about debate topics, so you are welcome to post your ideas about future debate topics, if you have any: HERE.


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## Barliman Butterbur

Ithrynluin said:


> There is currently an idea of a debate going on in the debate section



A debate on whether to debate. O........K...........

Barley


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## Ithrynluin

Err, no. It's an idea for a debate _topic_.


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## Walter

Hmmm, resurrecting the guilds...

Interesting idea!


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## Melian Le Fay

I am not so sure about the guilds... I don't think the activity on the forum is high enough for that.... (cries) but debates seem like a great idea!!! Perhaps choosing debate topics and then forming debate teams (pro & contra) within a debate section would be a way to go...


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## Chymaera

I would like to do some debates again, but I would like it if we could have differnt teams and rotate from team to team. It would be fun to debate with people and then next time debate against them. 

Guilds came become divisive


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## Ithrynluin

Melian Le Fay said:


> Perhaps choosing debate topics and then forming debate teams (pro & contra) within a debate section would be a way to go...





Chymaera said:


> I would like to do some debates again, but I would like it if we could have differnt teams and rotate from team to team. It would be fun to debate with people and then next time debate against them.



That's exactly what the TTF Debating Society is for. In fact, there's a debate going on right now, and it's about to finish and be judged. But you can propose a topic HERE and participate in the next debate.


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## Melian Le Fay

Well then, we should stick to the existing Debating Society... That way the whole debating would be held in a concise, narrow way, without drifting away into "bite sized" fora (as someone mentioned)... Perhaps if and when the need arises to expand or formulate the debates , the old guild system should be restored... As long as there isn't any elitism, segregation or "pledges" ...


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## Grond

Guilds take at least one (almost totally) dedicated member to run, organize and manage it. Maedhros, Anc, Gothmog and myself (I apologize to any I've left out) once had that time. My parents were sick and I was taking care of them so computer time was aplenty.

Now that I have to work a REAL job again, time is at a premium. Wife, kids, grandkids and the like take up most of my free time. So.... I don't think the interest and ability is here to resurrect the guilds in their old splendor. I do really like the idea of a Debate Society and would like to be active in it.

Lhun and Ithy... it is indeed good to see both of your posts... but apparently I've missed much. 

Cheers,

grond

PS I've just started the Children of Hurin. I'll read it at least four times by the end of June.

Cheers again.


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## Melian Le Fay

Hey there, Grond... You don't remember me, but I was a Journeyman Tolkienologist once... Ah... the splendorous old days...  I'm very glad to see you.

Then perhaps, we should try to infuse more life into the Debating Society!


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## Gil-Galad

The time of the Guilds was the best time for me here .

And having them back again would be pretty nice.Just recently I re-read some old debates of my old Guild and I recalled all great moment of the past.

One hard question to answer will be,are there enough people active in order to have the Guilds again? Several years ago the forum was pretty "busy" place if someone wanted to follow everything...But recently I do not have the impression that we have the same numbers being active here.....

For example,at one point the Guild of Tolkienology had 20+ members and it was always possible to make a team of 4 prominent members.So I am really not quite sure whether this could happen again. 

Looking now,at what's left, I am really proud to see that most of Guild ot Tolkienology's ideas and projects are still alive,so it seems that it was worth all te efforts.

If the Guilds are back I would definitely try to spend some time in my favourite Guild.


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## Melian Le Fay

_Gil-Galad the Elven king
Of him the harpers sing
The last who's realm was fair and free
Between the Mountains and the Sea..._

I'm glad to see you, Gil-Galad, though you may not remember me... I'm Milena, from Serbia.... your neighbour... 

I agree that the times of the Guilds were the best... but as all the grace and glory of the Elves had come to an end, so did the time of the Guilds...

Ok, I'll stop being all poetic - I don't think Guilds in their former splendour (oops here's me being all poetic  ) could come back... but something on a smaller scale?


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## Gil-Galad

Lhunithiliel said:


> Ha!
> Not that I care, but it's cruelly ironic to read this suggestion by someone, who was so passionate about and eventually very successful in closing the guilds!
> 
> 
> Finally, I'm sorry to say it *Ithy*, but first - you shall not be able to revive the guilds, not in their previous splendour - you have not the people for that!; and second - try a fresh idea, especially after you had ruined other people's achievements.
> 
> Oh! And sorry for being the "horrid she-Nazgul" again  ... but I was once stigmatized as such, so I have to keep up my "image"



Somehow I missed the first page of this thread and just now I saw your post my dear Lhun.

Your post is a kind of harder version of what I think about the whole thing with closing the Guilds some time ago...Actually at one certain point the Guild of Tolkienology was the thing that kept me being active.Not that I had much free time then( I have even less nowadays),but it was a reason to come here more often. With closing them I guess that I was not the only one who became inactive....So they shouldn't have been closed.

Sadly, you are absolutely right about the current situation.The forum does not have the number of active users in order to bring back the Guilds.Or if there is such an attempt, every Guild will need people such as Grond,you,Gothmog,Maedhros,Anc,Walter,etc. who could be the heart and the soul of every Guild. Without such persons I doubt that there will be any success.

As for bringing a simplified version of the Guilds....somehow this idea needs to be clarified a bit.If the only aim is debating,well,there could be created a "debating championship" with ,let's say, 4-5-6 teams (if the want they could be named after any of the old Guilds).....


But basically I believe that the meaning of the Guilds was far greater than just having a "debate team".

p.s. I am really glad to see that this topic has brought back some of the "TTF veterans" of the past.


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