# Leaving Nevrast



## Confusticated (May 10, 2004)

All we hear of Nevrast, including the description in chapter 14 makes it out to be a very beautiful place to live, especially if one likes to be near the sea. This green watery and musical land is a lot different than the city in the hidden plain up in the mountains. I find it interesting that _all_ left this land for Gondolin during a time of peace when the threat of Morgoth can not have been so great as to cause people to hide in fear. What of all those Sindar who were there before Turgon and the Noldor? Did none of them wish to stay in the home they had known and loved for some time? 

Why did all of them go to this new city, and be shut away in hiding?

Love and trust of Turgon?

Were they more affraid on being destroyed by Morgoth than one might expect? This seems unlikely to me.

But, what is the deal here?


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## Gothmog (May 10, 2004)

Perhaps Ulmo played the Pied Piper's tune through the streams and rivers of Nevrast.

He did much to aid the Noldor and the Sindar during those dark times after all.


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## Beleg (May 11, 2004)

Gondolin would have been a much stronger holdfast then Neverast could ever be. Perhaps the Sindar decided to play it safe and retreat with Turgon underground because in their wisdom they knew the peace wouldn't last for long, and alone in this remote corner of Beleriand they wouldn't have much chance of defending themselves against hordes of hostile armies. 
Also, the geograpy of Neverast was such that it was only possible to dwell along the coast or along the ranges and habitation there wasn't possible anyway in the winter. Such a land might be safe in peace, but in case of war it would be an easy gobble. And besides the Vale of Tumladen was beautiful too, wasn't it. 
Besides it it possible that some few did linger for a while in Neverast, eventually abandoning it for safer, and more populous resorts.


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## Turgon (May 14, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Nóm_
> 
> Love and trust of Turgon?


Damn straight!

 

But I'm inclined to think it was a little of each of Gothmog's and Beleg's answers - and of course if rumour of the beauty of Gondolin had filtered back to Nevrast then there we have another reason. I've always loved the description of Nevrast and the lands hard by - especially the Lost Tales version. They must have been loathe to leave it. How much worse then to be asked to leave Gondolin too? I've never been one to subscribe to the idea that Turgon alone wished to make a stand there.


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## Confusticated (May 15, 2004)

An answer from the King himself? 

The longer I think about it, the more likely Gothmog's suggestion seems to me. Ulmo was a lot to do with the whole thing, getting Turgon to build the city there, and helping the people move away in secret. I don't see any reason he would not have put some encouragement to go there in the sound of the water.

Beleg, the problem I have with your suggestions, and I touched this in opening, is that I did not really see that fear of Morgoth could have been cause enough for these people to leave the land they loved. They were just leaving to a beautiful white city with the music of fountains, but a life of hiding and who knows when hiding would end?

But all of this reminds me, what do you suppose Turgon _and especially_ his people were thinking about the more distant future? I say they must have had a vague idea of something. Did they maybe think that Gondolin would come out to war eventually? Think Gondolin would be dicovered eventually? I mean, lets be realistic, it could not remain hidden forever in _any_ case, could it? When Morgoth would get full victory outside in the lands, would the Gondolin have _any_ chance? And as for Morgoth defeating all the other realms of Beleriand, I think there could be no doubt this would happen. If the people believed Morgoth can be defeated by the Eldar, then Turgon's folk had no reason to hide in that way... at least safety from Morgoth cannot have been the primary reason for hiding. So here these people are thinking Morgoth will be victorous outside. They must have had some vague idea about their own survival. Just how would they? Turgon knew that the Valar were needed. I wonder if he had expressed this to his people even from the early time in Nevrast.


Turgon, I think you are right about others besides the King wanting to stay in the city and fight. I wonder if a lot of readers would disagree with you? But I hadn't thought before about how having had to leave Nevrast in the past might make the Gondolindrim less willing to leave their new city, that's a good idea.

...and I'm with you on the Lost Tales version of the coast. And the Land of Willows! I like how CT puts it, _drowsy beauty_. Wish I was there right now  ...maybe lead by _magic and destiny_.


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## Snaga (May 20, 2004)

The later descriptions of it contained in the long version of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin made it sound quite bleak and unfriendly to me. Perhaps I am alone in that.

The problem to me is not that they left Nevrast, but why they all went to Gondolin. The motivation to explore Middle Earth must have been strong: certainly this seems to be to the fore in the mind of the Noldo before they leave Valinor. I would be surprised if they would have been satisfied to make camp on the first bit of land they found.

I believe the prospect of war could not have been far from their minds at first. Since they knew they had come to try to regain the Silmarils. However, we know that later the Noldo become happy with the stalemate of the siege of Angband. I don't have my books to hand, but I believe it is during this time that Gondolin is founded. So then they were fearful enough to found a hidden city, but not sufficiently to go to war at Fingolfin's behest? Hmm...


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## Confusticated (May 20, 2004)

Right, they all moved off during a relatively peaceful time. I have the problem as you, that they left Nevrast to go to Gondolin in specific... into hiding anyhow. In my opinion they cannot have been in enough fear to go into hiding out of fear. This is why I find the Ulmo idea (which I at first did not like) to be possable. It is also why I suggest they might have special trust of their leader who would have advised them to follow. What _other_ explainations can there be? 

The Noldor's desire to see new lands doesn't both me as much as the love an elf has for his home. The Noldor may already have travelled the lands enough to be satisfied? Then maybe a lot of them just didn't travel much. We don't hear anything that I recall to imply that most the Noldor spent the WotJ wandering, though we do hear some specific elves wandered at certain points. Finrod and Turgon for example. _But_, Finrod is specificly said to have a love of wandering, and if I recall this is attributed to his Telerin blood. 

Some of the Noldor's motivation to explore might have really been a desire to have a place all their own, and to at least know they could explore whenever they got an urge to. Like a child who wants something because he can not have it. They believed the Valar wanted to keep them locked in Aman, so this would only increase natural tendency to want out I guess. 


And the whole business with the elves not going to war when Fingolfin suggests it stinks a little. I've started threads about it. Not made sense of it yet really. The sons of Feanor might have declined for spite of Fingolfin. This could be supported by the favt that not long after Bragollach and Fingolfin's death, Curufin and Celegorm have an idea to gather following enough to make war. On the other hand they were all lead by Maedhros and surely HE wouldn't have held off for spite? How about his own son Fingon? Even Finrod? Surely would have seen the usefulness in at least diminishing Morgoth's hoards before they could increase to a point where he could break the siege?


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