# The Pass Of Caradhras!



## Lady Legolas (Jul 12, 2002)

In the Fellowship of the Ring,part 2,chapter 3.The Fellowship got caught in a snow storm at the Pass of Caradhras.

Is it just me,because I think the storm was caused by Sauron.Or do you all think nothing was behind the storm,and just happened?


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## emopansy (Jul 12, 2002)

i read it that caradhras was its own entity(maiar possibly or another like being). i thought this becuse gimli states that before suaron caradhras was called the cruel. as far as the fell voices on the wind. i would geuss that suaron in the form of a burning eye would ave no voice only an esence. saruman on the other hand new there course from his spies and i doubt that he would have told sauron unless his will overwelmed saruman and he got information that way so it could be saruman. wich i didnt help at all only made you more options but my geuss is that caradhras is his own entity


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## Ponte (Jul 12, 2002)

I think that the mountain itself caused the snowstorm.


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## emopansy (Jul 12, 2002)

so is caradhras maiar or a like being like the demons that excist iin dragons, i mean is it?


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## Rúmil (Jul 12, 2002)

No! Caradhras is just like Old Man Willow; an inanimate thing that's somehow come alive, just that. It has nothing to do with other people, about Valar, Dark Lords, Rings; it just likes to be a nuisance, that's all.


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## emopansy (Jul 12, 2002)

were is this information coming from?
i mean there has to be some information on were life came from. nothing happens with out illvatar diong it in some way so were does caradhras fit in?
the only explaination i see is that illvatar created him to make the fellowship go to moria were gandalf could fight the balrog and become unmasked as the white therefore being able t better resist saruman and suaron. there must be some connection. like old man willow were he leads them to tom bombidill there fore protecting them from the naz-gul and the barrow wright belive in fate and illvatar as the one god of middle earth and beyond the sea is fate.


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## Rúmil (Jul 12, 2002)

That seems to imply that Illúvatar created the Ainur so they could become Dark Lords or Balrogs, Men so they could be Ringwraiths, and the Children of Illúvatar so they could be twisted into orcs  
He doesn't create everything so they will fit into some big purpose somehow, hr just makes them so they will _be_ : Ëa!


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## aragil (Jul 12, 2002)

I've tried to climb several mountains and been turned around by weather. I never thought to curse them because of some angelic spirit inhabiting them.


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## Ithrynluin (Jul 12, 2002)

Yep,it's an object that somehow has a will of its own,nothing more IMO.


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## HLGStrider (Jul 12, 2002)

> That seems to imply that Illúvatar created the Ainur so they could become Dark Lords or Balrogs, Men so they could be Ringwraiths, and the Children of Illúvatar so they could be twisted into orcs



To roughly quote CS Lewis the greater potential for good something has the worse it will be if it goes bad. Illuvatar created these good things and they went bad. That sumes it up.

Anyway, I do NOT believe that Caradras was a Maia. That sounds too far fetched. Maia come in many shapes in sizes, but a mountain???
Too too too far fetched.

The old man willow opinion is good.

In Tolkien, and in most fantasy, things can be alive that aren't alive. A spirit of good or evil can inhabit anything... Mountains and trees included.


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## Lantarion (Jul 13, 2002)

Of course a mountain can't be a Maia! Maiar are sent to Middle-Earth to fulfill a specific quest-like purpose (like the Istari), not to randomly inhabit mountains and trees so they can pester passersby. It might be possible that some strange, inexplicable ethereal being created by Melkor might have crept out of Beleriand and over the Blue Mountains before the Great Change, or maybe they were summoned again by the Witch-King of Angmar. The fact is that none of us know the answer, and all 'knowledge' we dole out on the subject is compiled of guesses. But I think that Caradhras and Old Man Willow were inhabited by evil spirits of some sort. They could not have been Ainur, IMHO.
And the storm is created, unlike it is stated in the *grumble grumble* movie, by the mountain itself and NOT Saruman or Sauron!!


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## Walter (Jul 13, 2002)

Well I live in Austria, and now I know where all the Maiar disappeared to: The Alps...

And - stupid ol me - didn't even realize this until I read this thread, for whenever I was caught in a snowstorm or thunderstorm in the mountain region, I thought it was just the weather....

I just wonder what my family will think of me, next time we do some hiking in the mountain region, and when I will walk around, poking every other boulder with my Alpenstock: "Eönwë??? Is that you, Eönwë??? Tilion??? Olorin???


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## HLGStrider (Jul 13, 2002)

Horray for Walter!!!

I hope your family does not have you locked up for doing this...



> so is caradhras maiar or a like being like the demons that excist iin dragons, i mean is it?



I just noticed this... Um... do dragons really have demons in them? I'd never heard about this before. I thought they were just evil lizard type creatures... you know, big, mean, cunning reptiles. I didn't know they were possessed.


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## Rúmil (Jul 13, 2002)

Their bodies were big reptiles. But if they had no indwelling spirit, they could not have been intelligent (Glaurung could speak, cast spells etc.) They definitely had spirits in them, possibly coming from beyond Arda in the fashion of the Ainur, but certainly not Maiar.


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## HLGStrider (Jul 13, 2002)

When I think Demon possession, I think that a person or thing has been taken over by something so that they have no control over their actions. I admit the dragon's have a spirit, but I wouldn't call it a demon, just an evil soul.


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## Gil-Galad (Jul 14, 2002)

We have talked about that,but anyway.Caradhras is an evil itself and noone can control it or pass if Caradhras doesn't want to let him.


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## aragil (Jul 15, 2002)

I bet Tensing Norgay Sherpa or Reinhold Messner could have.


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## Walter (Jul 15, 2002)

On a somewhat more serious approach than my former one, I would like to say, that we really wouldn't have to bother Sauron, a Maia or any other spirit or demon for the failure of the Fellowship's attempt to cross Caradhras on the Redhorn pass. 

Karen W. Fonstad is not specific about the height of the pass, but shows it well beyond the timber-line and Barbara Strachey estimates Caradhras with 14000ft and the Redhorn pass approximately 5000ft, both not unreasonable for a mountain or a pass in the alpine region. 

If we also take the time of year - it was January - into consideration, a snowstorm would not at all be uncommon and - from personal experience - I can tell that those can be really nasty.

Nothing is said about the alpine experience of the Fellowship, but we must keep in mind, that there were three Halflings and one Dwarf. And their equipment for such a task was lousy, so to speak. Actually I would've been more astonished if the fellowship had succeeded under the given circumstances...


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## aragil (Jul 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Walter _
> *Barbara Strachey estimates Caradhras with 14000ft and the Redhorn pass approximately 5000ft, both not unreasonable for a mountain or a pass in the alpine region.*



5000 feet? I can beat that where I'm sitting. 14,000 though, that'd be impressive.


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## Walter (Jul 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by aragil _
> 5000 feet? I can beat that where I'm sitting. 14,000 though, that'd be impressive.


Well, yes, and people in tibet might say: 14.000ft? I can beat that where I'm sitting...

It's not only the height but also the height difference, Anduin at the gates of Argonath is estimated 600ft. Though I agree, timber-line here in the Alps is at about 5.500ft and according to K.W. Fonstad the Redhorn Pass would probably be 6.000ft to 7.000ft


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## Ancalagon (Jul 15, 2002)

One must consider that it is not so much the mountain that is the problem, but the elements that surround it. Travellers of all descriptions will always refer affectionately to the elements, for they must ever brave them. In addition, when you consider a sailor upon a very rough sea, it is always termed as 'cruel' or 'angry' or even 'calm' but always with a term reflecting a trait or emotion. This is in our nature to label these things that are bigger, bolder, stronger or more vast and potent than we are, yet to refer to them as 'he' or 'she' helps us to cope with the fact that we are insignificant in comparison!

I consider the same can be said of Caradhras, for 'he' is referred to as 'cruel' yet it is the elements that he wears which eventually defeat our band of travellers. Does Caradhras control them? Well, to a point yes; and for exactly the reasons that Walter gives regarding height. The mountain itself is not bringing down snow, hail or winds deliberately because it is any sort of spirit; it is a mountain, and those who were suspicious of it would label it as something more than the large, inanimate object that it actually is. However, the wind and other elements could be viewed more suspiciously and with good reason; for we know that there are many Maiar who are akin to the elements and control the winds and storms.


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## Rúmil (Jul 15, 2002)

But bear in mind The Ring goes South Lotr chap3 book2


> Ah, it is as I said,' growled Gimli. 'It was no ordinary storm. It is the ill will of Caradhras. He does not love Elves and Dwarves, and that drift was laid to cut off our escape.'


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## Ancalagon (Jul 15, 2002)

Just because he say's it, don't make it so!

Those with deep-grained superstitions always relate the actions of weather or similar as a disgruntled god, restless spirit or angry forefather; in this case it's just bad weather, no more no less!


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## Walter (Jul 15, 2002)

Odysseus too was blaming the gods, especially Neptune, rather than his poor navigational skills when he tried to cover up the fact that he was unable to sail back from Troja to Ithaka within several years...


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## HLGStrider (Jul 16, 2002)

> Those with deep-grained superstitions always relate the actions of weather or similar as a disgruntled god, restless spirit or angry forefather; in this case it's just bad weather, no more no less!



Heck... and I was just getting a lecture about how there were no superstitions in Middle Earth on the S is for Sauron thing... Geez... make up your mind, Tolkien Experts.


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## Ancalagon (Jul 16, 2002)

Well, I think that there are superstitions widely held in Middle-Earth and I will take time later to prove my point.


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## Rúmil (Jul 16, 2002)

If Gimili had said something stupid, Gandalf would certainly have rebuked him... and, Walter, in the writer's mind, it _was_ Poseidôn's wrath that stopped Odysseus from returning home... see especially verses 19-21 canto I:


> ...theoì d' eléairon ápantes/Nósphi Poseidaônos: * ho d'asperchès menéainen/Antithéô Odusêi * páros hên gaîan hikésthai. : The Gods all pitied him, save Poseidôn, *who relentlessly pursued the divine Odysseus* until he came back to (his own) land


  It's never your own fault if you fail, remember that. Always the Gods'.

PS: why is there no Greek font on this forum?


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## Walter (Jul 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rúmil _
> It's never your own fault if you fail, remember that. Always the Gods'.


Aaaah, how convenient.... yes, I must remember that...


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## aragil (Jul 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Walter _
> *Well, yes, and people in tibet might say: 14.000ft? I can beat that where I'm sitting...*



Darn Tibetans. Always so snobby with their elevation. You know what it is? Bad altitude.



> _Originally posted by Ancalagon _
> *Well, I think that there are superstitions widely held in Middle-Earth and I will take time later to prove my point.*



I'd agree that there were superstitions, especially among those not exposed to the Eldar (who knew better). However, I will defend Sauron from superstitious beliefs.



> _Originally posted by Rúmil_
> *PS: why is there no Greek font on this forum?*



I dunno, but I'm blaming the gods.


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## HLGStrider (Jul 16, 2002)

> It's never your own fault if you fail, remember that. Always the Gods'



That'll come in quite convenient next time my computer crashes before I've back everything up...

Dang inconvenient that Christainity's God is infaliable....


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## HLGStrider (Jul 16, 2002)

Oh... ps
love all your jokes Aragil... You guys keep me too busy trying to be funny. I'm afraid you'll challange me for my official jester of the ranger's position and I'll be out of a job.


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## aragil (Jul 16, 2002)

Thanks- a lot of silliness in the air today. Must be the impending stroke of old age.


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## emopansy (Jul 16, 2002)

*ive been out of the forum and look what happened*

this was posted by a doubter a while back.
That seems to imply that Illúvatar created the Ainur so they could become Dark Lords or Balrogs, Men so they could be Ringwraiths, and the Children of Ilúvatar so they could be twisted into orcs 
He doesn't create everything so they will fit into some big purpose somehow, hr just makes them so they will be : Ëa!
in the lore of the silmarillion it is stated by illvatar that"Mighty are the Ainur, and mightest among them is Melkor: but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that i am Ilúvatar, those things ye have sung, i will show them forth, that ye may see what i have done. and thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music of my despite. for that attampteth this shall prove but mine instrumentin the devising of things more wonderful. which he himself has not imagined."
indeed it does is what i have to say god always has a purpose.


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## HLGStrider (Jul 17, 2002)

Great point, Em.... Like it.


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## Lady Legolas (Jul 17, 2002)

thanks for all your ideas and insite everyone!!!


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## Rúmil (Jul 17, 2002)

I think emopansy's quote does not mean that Illúvatar created Melkor with the _original_ purpose of making him the unwitting instrument of greater good, but later amended his purpose so Melkor could still be good to have been.


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## Ancalagon (Jul 17, 2002)

True, it would also be worth adding your opinions to a thread that asks these very same questions; http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1051


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## Cian (Jul 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rúmil:_ PS: why is there no Greek font on this forum?



_Den peirazei_


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## Rúmil (Jul 17, 2002)

> Den peirazei


 Ômoi moi!


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## HLGStrider (Jul 17, 2002)

Tsk tsk... no foreign language posts, guys... 

it's the rules... besides, you're confusing me.


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## Rúmil (Jul 18, 2002)

sorry, won't do it again


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## Lantarion (Jul 18, 2002)

WHat did that mean, though? I'd check my Greek dictionary, but I'm out of town and I can't be bothered to look for a Greek dictionary.. Even though I am in a library!


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## Rúmil (Jul 18, 2002)

It means:
-you try long. confused: at least that's what the words mean)
-alas!

"peirazei" means "you try, you are trying" maybe Cian meant "peirasei", "you _will_ try long" Maybe Cian could translate better than I 

PS: shouldn't your signature be "risu*s* abundat ab ore Pontife*cis*" ?


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## Cian (Jul 18, 2002)

I do not speak Greek, but I have "heard" the phrase (sometimes various in pronunciation) used to mean something like "never mind" or "don't mind" (ie don't mind X, whatever you are talking about I guess). In other words, "don't mind" the fact that we cannot write in Greek characters, or "never mind" (the reason why we cannot), though I don't know if I used it correctly ~ well, I could have written something a bit more _suitable_ if I actually spoke the language! saying "good day" in G. didn't work here 

I checked a Greek dictionary to write it in Roman characters, which agreed with several Greek chat sites at least, and one website which told how to say "never mind" in various langs (for some reason?).

Anyway it's not very important, it was just one of the few things I thought I knew in Greek ~ another native speaker told me one might hear that a lot when one does something bad ... hmmm, so I'm going to ask him next time for his specific interpretation. 

I'm sorry for the offtopic blather. Continue with LOTR chat. Never mind


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## Rúmil (Jul 18, 2002)

Allright, I'm not forgetting my Greek 
It must be a common phrase in Modern Greek, but it does not make much sense in Ancient Greek, that being, alas, the only form I can speak. The meaning must have evolved over the 2500 years which separate the two languages 

allright, where were we? Caradhras? what about Caradhras?


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## Walter (Jul 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rúmil _
> "risu*s* abundat ab ore Pontife*cis*" ?


If memory serves me well, you should be right about the Nominative "risus", but the Genitive "Pontifecis" is definitive out of fashion and in common language mostly replaced by an accusative - maybe that happened in Rome too 

Btw. shouldn't we found a new Guild, the "Guild of the Nitpickwickier"?


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## Rúmil (Jul 18, 2002)

Genitive fell out of fashion?? what language are we talfing about?  

As for the Guild of the Nitpickwickiers, it's a great idea! when do we sart?


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## aragil (Jul 18, 2002)

*Quote for the Guild*



> Centurion: What's this then? Romanes eunt domus? People call around marnays they go the house?
> Brian: It...it says: "Romans go home."
> Centurion: No, it doesn't.
> Brian: Aih.
> ...



Now, don't do it again (outside the glorious guild, that is)!


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## Cian (Jul 18, 2002)

At least allow me another offtopic LOL


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## Rúmil (Jul 18, 2002)

LOL!
Yes sir! by sunrise sir! promise I won't do it again sir!...
*strides off with his hands over his fly*

PS: *comes back with a wry smile* 
and, BTW, the locative of domus is... domi. But the locative is not used in the case of motion. Domum is correct.
*runs off real quick before someone does something nasty to him for being an incorrigible conceited pedant*


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## HLGStrider (Jul 18, 2002)

Elgee decides she really needs a college education... Could we talk about this all after I graduate Highschool?

I bet you guys all vote democratic too... I feel lonely. Of course, some of you aren't American's and probably have different parties... hummmmmm oh well.


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## Walter (Jul 18, 2002)

LOL @ aragil - Great quote, from "The life of Brian" I presume? 

Btw, Rumil, is there a difference between the locative of domus and the dominant of locus?


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## aragil (Jul 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Walter _
> *LOL @ aragil - Great quote, from "The life of Brian" I presume? *



Quite right- great little bit. Always makes me think about the fun we Americans miss out on, not being required to take Latin.


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## Rúmil (Jul 18, 2002)

> Btw, Rumil, is there a difference between the locative of domus and the dominant of locus?


 Well, Walter, let me explain: you've got it wrong there. The difference is...



 
What is "the life of Brian"? never heard of it, but from that quote is sounds hilarious.


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## Lantarion (Jul 19, 2002)

Well, I'm glad my lack of Latin has started this little sidetrack.  I am about to start Latin, when school starts again (I'm off to high school). I hope my knowledge of the language will accumulate quicker than that of French. The first phrase I learned was _Je ne sais pas_. 

*gasps, draws away* You haven't heard of 'Life of Brian'?!?! Have you heard of 'Monty Python'? It's only the best comedy sketch group in the world! They have made several excellent movies, 'The Life of Brian', 'The Quest for the Holy Grail' (from which such marvellous quotes like "We've already got one", "It's only a model" and "It's just a fleshwound" are derivative, among other hilarious phrases) etc. If you haven't seen them, do so immediately!!


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## Rúmil (Jul 19, 2002)

Oh, Monty Python! I saw 'The Quest for the Holy Grail', but not 'The Life of Brian'.

*speeds off to the video retal place*


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