# What about Hurin?



## Melian (Dec 28, 2001)

I was wondering-don't you think that the history of Middle-Earth would have been far more enjoyable,if Hurin had told Morgoth what he knew about Gondolin?It's not much anyway.It is clearly said that he and his brother were lifted by Thorondor(that taxi-eagle) ,they stayed for an year and then left the secret place again carried by Thorondor.They DO NOT know how to get to Gondolin,though.Hence,they should not have given that ridiculous oath.
In consequence,Hurin's stubborness lead to countless victims.Especially the tragedy of his son and daughter,Turin and Nienor.


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## Gothmog (Dec 28, 2001)

An interesting Question. In answer I give you another, or even two.

Would Melkor the Grand Master of Lies and Deceit have believed anyone telling the Truth? Could he indeed even recognise the Truth?


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## Moonbeams (Dec 28, 2001)

It's all about pride! He wouldn't tell him anything, even if there's nothing to tell, because a true hero doesn't give out anything to his enemy to save his life! 
Better to die a hero, than live as a coward, some say. But I think it wouldnt matter much no matter what he told him, beacuse Morgoth wouldn't recognise the truth. He wouldn't belive his own mother, if he had a mother. But he'd send somebody to inspect, and check, and double check on the truth. That appears to be the way to all evil creatures. 
And in the end he would probably do to him what he did anyway... because that's also what evil creatuers do.


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## Melian (Dec 29, 2001)

The Question is not whether a betrayal is more preferable than an infinitely wretched existence.What I'm trying to say is,that Hurin was unwise enough to give an useless oath and thus doom himself.This has nothing to do with Heroism or Cowardice.This is what I call Intellect.
Melkor may be the Evil One,but why should the Good Ones help him with their stubborness?
And about Gothmog's question #2:after all,Melkor did recognise the truth when Maeglin betrayed Gondolin.


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## Eonwe (Dec 29, 2001)

I suppose if Hurin blabbed Melkor would have focused on Gondolin and not his kin, and certainly it is reasonable to assume none of the Turin, Morwen, etc stuff would have happened.

But I think the real question is is it Hurin's fault that Melkor is evil? That is, should he change his behaviour to his allies the elves of Gondolin just because he knows how Melkor would react? And what would have happened to Gondolin (Tuor and Idril namely) if Melkor had attacked it earlier? Also would Glaurung have been killed or would he have wreaked more havoc? I think this is right down the major theme of the books that Tolkien portrays, that evil deeds eventually are turned to good (what Illuvatar said to Melkor after he stopped the music, that evil would eventually be used in the will of Illuvatar and would be turned to do good in ways that the evil never anticipated).

I think your question is very good Melain, you are wise as usual.


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## Melian (Dec 29, 2001)

Thanks,Eonwe,it's a great honour to hear it from you 
What I can't assume in Hurin's case,and in most of the stories in the Sil ,is how we generally acknowledge that evil comes from Melkor only.Whatever stupidity from the side of the Good ones happens,we blame it on Melkor.


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## Gothmog (Dec 29, 2001)

Maeglin was cowed and already slave to Melkor's will when he sold out Gondolin for the body of Idril Celebrindal. It was that slavery and the manner of the sell-out that allowed Melkor to believe.

It is also interesting to note that both Hurin and Maeglin swore an oath of secrecy. Hurin swore to Maeglin and Maeglin did so to Turgon.

Hurin kept faith and great harm was done to his family with less to Gondolin which still stood. Maeglin broke his and Gondolin fell.

We know that in the end Hurin betrayed the area in which Gondolin was to be found but without Maeglin's betrayal it woudn't have been so bad.


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## Moonbeams (Dec 29, 2001)

> What I'm trying to say is,that Hurin was unwise enough to give an useless oath and thus doom himself.



How do you think Hurin knew at the time that the oath was usseless, or that it will be the beginning of the downfall of not only him, but also his family? He could not see the future, nor could he predict that giving that oath will prove fatal. It may seem stupid to you in the light of things that happened, but at the time, in that moment, it was not.


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## Melian (Jan 2, 2002)

I must admit you have a point.Really,how could he know?
Nevertheless,would you engage yourself with an oath without a reason?Why should Hurin promise anything at all,when he did not know how exactly to reach Gondolin?


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