# About Wainriders tactics and strategy



## Hisoka Morrow (Jun 21, 2020)

As you guys have known Wainriders were dreaded for their vehicles.
And why I don't use chariots or wagons these two words?It's simple, these animals-drag stuff were already PROVED USELESS IN FRONT OF CAVALRIES!!!!!! This has been already proved in the warring states period of china. Even in other western military history, animals-drag vehicles were proved mostly useless in very early period even as early as the classical age, unless in special situation like Battle of Samarra where the targets were in low morale(and such"better result" was just still a Pyrryhic win)
Yeah, here comes a big problem, if Wainriders really use antique like chariots or wagons, they're supposed to be sticking ducks before the norsemen, obviously typical nomad ,reasonably to be the nemesis to factions use chariots or wagons as main force. China's warring state, Persia Scythia war, Akexanar's conquest and so on, are the best proof.
So what do you think?Might Wainriders use circle formation like the pilgrims in the Huth's war and the Goths in Adrainopole(AD378)?Or gmith they got early tanks yet Toikein described them via indirect ways?^^


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## Olorgando (Jun 22, 2020)

Hisoka Morrow said:


> As you guys have known Wainriders were dreaded for their vehicles. ...


I'm not sure that's what they were feared for. Wains are big, heavy, slow cargo vehicles, basically. Pretty much useless for warfare, and I don't recall JRRT describing their preferred manner of fighting in any detail, if at all. Perhaps for warfare they did use chariots, though, to use a modern analogy (and stretch it a bit) successful manufacturers of 40-ton trucks aren't known to have produced successful Formula 1 race cars. And as modern reconstructive archaeologist have found, building a chariot that doesn't immediately fall apart with the rough handling to be expected in battle is not easy at all.

As to chariots vs. cavalry, that may be. But at least up to the end of the Bronze age roughly around 1200 BC, chariots were the weapons of choice. Among the first recorded cavalry, as far as I remember, are the Scythians, first appearing in the 7th century BC. So with the first mention of the Wainriders being in 1851 Third Age (over 200 years after the Great Plague, to answer a question from another post of yours), when do we have the first mention of cavalry? The later Rohirrim were closely related to the Northmen of Rhovanion, but that does not necessarily mean that the latter were already a cavalry-based nation. As they at least partly lived in southern Greenwood, that does speak much for cavalry. The Éothéod, direct ancestors of the Rohirrim, moved north in the Anduin vales under their leader Frumgar (Father of Fram, the one who killed the dragon Scatha and made its teeth into a necklace) in 1977 TA, after the Witch-king of Angmar had been defeated and disappeared from the North, and probably Angmar fell into disarray if not ruin, and no longer was seen as a threat. Were the Éothéod already cavalry-based? I can find no definite statement either way. The first to definitely to be defined as cavalry were the Rohirrim under Eorl the Young, coming to the aid of Gondor in 2510 TA and then settling in Calenardhon, which then became Rohan. So over 600 years earlier, like in the real world, there might not have been a cavalry to oppose the Wainriders, if one supposes them to have had chariots.

Just one aside to the supposed superiority of cavalry:
In the Battle of the Golden Spurs or Battle of Courtrai in 1302, Flemish infantry pike-men routed the cavalry of Philip IV of France (also called Philip the Fair, but by all accounts a rather unsavory character - meaning run-of-the-mill for royalty and aristocracy of the time). While Philip ultimately won that 1297–1305 war, the French nobility suffered heavy losses. They were to repeat this, with massively greater losses, against English longbowmen at the battles of Crécy in 1346 and Agincourt in 1415.


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## Aldarion (Jun 29, 2020)

Hisoka Morrow said:


> As you guys have known Wainriders were dreaded for their vehicles.
> And why I don't use chariots or wagons these two words?It's simple, these animals-drag stuff were already PROVED USELESS IN FRONT OF CAVALRIES!!!!!! This has been already proved in the warring states period of china. Even in other western military history, animals-drag vehicles were proved mostly useless in very early period even as early as the classical age, unless in special situation like Battle of Samarra where the targets were in low morale(and such"better result" was just still a Pyrryhic win)
> Yeah, here comes a big problem, if Wainriders really use antique like chariots or wagons, they're supposed to be sticking ducks before the norsemen, obviously typical nomad ,reasonably to be the nemesis to factions use chariots or wagons as main force. China's warring state, Persia Scythia war, Akexanar's conquest and so on, are the best proof.
> So what do you think?Might Wainriders use circle formation like the pilgrims in the Huth's war and the Goths in Adrainopole(AD378)?Or gmith they got early tanks yet Toikein described them via indirect ways?^^



I do not think Wainriders used chariots. They used wains - that is, wagons or carts. And _these are very much not useless_. Historically, Hussites used wagons very successfuly against cavalry armies, and even before them Hungarians had used wagons to fortify camps.

I imagine they used something similar to Hussite wagon tactics:








Circling the 15th Century Wagons: The Hussite Wars


One of the strangest military formations ever seen in Europe, Hussite war wagons struck fear into their opponents during the early 15th century. Fighting




www.warhistoryonline.com












The Wagenberg: How wagons became a medieval weapon of war


During the course of a century, medieval military commanders from Eastern Europe to India would make use of wagons as their key element in winning on the battlefield.



www.medievalists.net






Battle Tactics of the Hussites




Hussite Battle Tactics and Organisation


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## Hisoka Morrow (Jun 29, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> I'm not sure that's what they were feared for. Wains are big, heavy, slow cargo vehicles, basically. Pretty much useless for warfare, and I don't recall JRRT describing their preferred manner of fighting in any detail, if at all. Perhaps for warfare they did use chariots, though, to use a modern analogy (and stretch it a bit) successful manufacturers of 40-ton trucks aren't known to have produced successful Formula 1 race cars. And as modern reconstructive archaeologist have found, building a chariot that doesn't immediately fall apart with the rough handling to be expected in battle is not easy at all.
> 
> As to chariots vs. cavalry, that may be. But at least up to the end of the Bronze age roughly around 1200 BC, chariots were the weapons of choice. Among the first recorded cavalry, as far as I remember, are the Scythians, first appearing in the 7th century BC. So with the first mention of the Wainriders being in 1851 Third Age (over 200 years after the Great Plague, to answer a question from another post of yours), when do we have the first mention of cavalry? The later Rohirrim were closely related to the Northmen of Rhovanion, but that does not necessarily mean that the latter were already a cavalry-based nation. As they at least partly lived in southern Greenwood, that does speak much for cavalry. The Éothéod, direct ancestors of the Rohirrim, moved north in the Anduin vales under their leader Frumgar (Father of Fram, the one who killed the dragon Scatha and made its teeth into a necklace) in 1977 TA, after the Witch-king of Angmar had been defeated and disappeared from the North, and probably Angmar fell into disarray if not ruin, and no longer was seen as a threat. Were the Éothéod already cavalry-based? I can find no definite statement either way. The first to definitely to be defined as cavalry were the Rohirrim under Eorl the Young, coming to the aid of Gondor in 2510 TA and then settling in Calenardhon, which then became Rohan. So over 600 years earlier, like in the real world, there might not have been a cavalry to oppose the Wainriders, if one supposes them to have had chariots.
> 
> ...


OK, even if the Rhovanion weren't supposed to be cavalry-dominant, yet infantry weren't proved to be preferred preys for chariots either.
During the China-Warring state, massive military reform of the vassals of Zhou was due to a series of factual battles proving the the inferiority of chariots between them and all kinds of savage hordes. These inferiority includes terrain flexibility, mobility, and so forth.
Unless in some special condition, Julian the Apostate in the Battle of Samarra, which the Romans had already suffered from heavy losses on their morale, the Persian chariots maybe had done some works, yet still unable to bring them victory in front of the well-disciplined roman army.
I wonder Ondoher really get crushed like a piece of cake or not. After all, Gondor armies weren't supposed to suck so easily.



Aldarion said:


> I do not think Wainriders used chariots. They used wains - that is, wagons or carts. And _these are very much not useless_. Historically, Hussites used wagons very successfuly against cavalry armies, and even before them Hungarians had used wagons to fortify camps.
> 
> I imagine they used something similar to Hussite wagon tactics:
> 
> ...


Hmm....=''=...then here comes to a big problem, Toikein description about Wainriders seem aggressive, obviously opposite to the vehicles tactics you provide( of course it's another matter in special cases like wains armed with heavy fire-power).
Or maybe those Wainriders fight like mechanic infantry-moving fast into your front and then bomb your ass back to the stone age. One more proof support this infer, the terrain. In front of the Black-Gate, there're mountains favor infantries everywhere, making vehicles no more than sticking ducks before them, unless those vehicles size are small enough so that they got more flexibility and get used as transport simply.
So might the Wainriders are fire-power dominant?This is just my personal guess anyway, what do you think?^^


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## Olorgando (Jun 29, 2020)

Aldarion said:


> I do not think Wainriders used chariots. They used wains - that is, wagons or carts. And _these are very much not useless_. Historically, Hussites used wagons very successfuly against cavalry armies, and even before them Hungarians had used wagons to fortify camps.
> 
> I imagine they used something similar to Hussite wagon tactics:
> 
> ...


Good stuff!
But I note that even starting with the Hussites, firearms became progressively more important, more and more so over time. And the "Wagenburg" ("wagon fortress") is in the main a defensive form of warfare, depending on enemy attackers wearing themselves down on the defensive positions before taking offensive action. I had already read about the Ottoman Turks fighting like this, but not, as far as I can remember, that they had also adopted the "Wagenburg" from the Hungarians, and thus ultimately from the Hussites.

So the Wainriders fighting like the Hussites et. al. minus firearms.


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## Aldarion (Jun 29, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> Good stuff!
> But I note that even starting with the Hussites, firearms became progressively more important, more and more so over time. And the "Wagenburg" ("wagon fortress") is in the main a defensive form of warfare, depending on enemy attackers wearing themselves down on the defensive positions before taking offensive action. I had already read about the Ottoman Turks fighting like this, but not, as far as I can remember, that they had also adopted the "Wagenburg" from the Hungarians, and thus ultimately from the Hussites.
> 
> So the Wainriders fighting like the Hussites et. al. minus firearms.



Yeah. Although, wasn't there something about chariots "smashing" into Gondorian lines? Which does not fit with either chariot or wagon warfare.


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## Olorgando (Jun 29, 2020)

Aldarion said:


> Yeah. Although, wasn't there something about chariots "smashing" into Gondorian lines? Which does not fit with either chariot or wagon warfare.


Not quite, at least not in what I've found. I used my 2003 hardcover illustrated (by Ted Nasmith) edition of Robert Foster's "The Complete Guide to Middle-earth" to find where in JRRT's writings the Wainriders are mentioned. Fortunately, the page references included, besides two other editions, my 2002 hardcover illustrated (by Alan Lee) three-volume, but continuously paginated edition of LoTR.

This led to Appendix A, section (iv) "Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion", on page 1060:
"The third evil was the invasion of the Wainriders, which sapped the waning strength of Gondor in wars that lasted for almost a hundred years. The Wainriders were a people, or a confederacy of many peoples, that came from the East; but they were stronger and better armed than any that had appeared before. They *journeyed* in great wains, and their *chieftains fought in chariots*. Stirred up, as was afterwards seen, by the emissaries of Sauron, they made a sudden assault upon Gondor, and King Narmacil II was slain in battle with them beyond Anduin in 1856 [Third Age]."

One thought: if the journeyed in wains, would they have also fought with the same wains? The wains described as being used by the Hussites and later seemed to me to be dedicated war wains. Even the Vikings had different ships for raids and commerce, and never mind the difference between (rowed) war galleys and mostly sail-propelled merchant ships centuries later (tourist cruise ships are for some reason totally ignored at these times ). It *could* be that the wains were dual-use, but needed some refitting to convert them from transport to warfare (even modern troop transporters, and never mind battle tanks, make lousy caravans / trailers). With then throws up the question what the non-warring population - and the Wainriders impress me as whole populations on the move, like the "Germanic" tribes that troubled the (western) Roman Empire right up to its demise, rather than purely war parties - used for accommodations while the wains were being used in warfare. Pitched tents, perhaps?

Then the statement, that the chieftains fought in chariots. Now, unless we equate "chieftain" with modern military ranks of the level of lieutenants, or even sergeants, that does not add up to many chariots. And both massed pike-men as as well as massed archers (the machine guns of the later middle ages) could inflict massive losses on anything involving horses. But JRRT has not, as far as I know, provided any details about specialized troops on either side to be helpful in solving such speculations. Fodder for countless fanfics, RPGs, games, yes, entire non-trivial industries … 🤓


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## Aldarion (Jun 30, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> Not quite, at least not in what I've found. I used my 2003 hardcover illustrated (by Ted Nasmith) edition of Robert Foster's "The Complete Guide to Middle-earth" to find where in JRRT's writings the Wainriders are mentioned. Fortunately, the page references included, besides two other editions, my 2002 hardcover illustrated (by Alan Lee) three-volume, but continuously paginated edition of LoTR.
> 
> This led to Appendix A, section (iv) "Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion", on page 1060:
> "The third evil was the invasion of the Wainriders, which sapped the waning strength of Gondor in wars that lasted for almost a hundred years. The Wainriders were a people, or a confederacy of many peoples, that came from the East; but they were stronger and better armed than any that had appeared before. They *journeyed* in great wains, and their *chieftains fought in chariots*. Stirred up, as was afterwards seen, by the emissaries of Sauron, they made a sudden assault upon Gondor, and King Narmacil II was slain in battle with them beyond Anduin in 1856 [Third Age]."
> ...



I found the following in Unfinished Tales. I bolded the relevant parts, but in short, Wainriders do utilize:
- fortified camps of wagons
- war chariots
- cavalry

So it appears that wagons are only used for travel and field fortifications, while combat order is more typical infantry + cavalry + chariots. So civilians would remain in fortified wagon camp while army fought outside it, and if necessary retreated to the camp. Goths in Battle of Adrianople used wagon camp, and I believe they might be inspiration for wainriders.

Hussite wains actually started out as normal cargo wans, but were indeed later modified to proper war wagons.



> They were slow to recover; but their weakness was not tested for a long time. No doubt the people further
> east had been equally afflicted, so that the enemies of Gondor came chiefly; from the south or over sea.
> But when the invasions of the Wainriders began and involved Gondor in wars that lasted for almost a
> hundred years, the Northmen bore the brunt of the first assaults. King Narmacil II took a great army north
> ...





> In the meanwhile the Wainriders licked their wounds, and plotted their revenge. Beyond the reach of the
> arms of Gondor in lands east of the Seat of Rhûn from which no tidings came to its Kings, their kinsfolk
> spread and multiplied, and they were eager for conquests and booty and filled with hatred of Gondor
> which stood in their way. It was long, however, before they moved. On the one hand they feared the might
> ...


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## Olorgando (Jun 30, 2020)

"Here the text abruptly breaks off, and the notes and jottings for its continuation are for the most part illegible."

As happened so often in JRRT's writings. Compared to what was printed with his approval during his lifetime, the amount of "Unfinished Tales" is so much larger. And as these include variants of the same tale - something like eight for "Beren and Lúthien"? - written over a period of decades, often confusing and contradictory. But that is fodder for (almost) endless discussions, and fanfics, for that matter.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Jun 30, 2020)

Aldarion said:


> I found the following in Unfinished Tales. I bolded the relevant parts, but in short, Wainriders do utilize:
> - fortified camps of wagons
> - war chariots
> - cavalry
> ...


So...according to this description-"But it was not so. The Wainriders had mustered a great host by the southern shores of the inland Sea of
Rhûn, strengthened by men of their kinsfolk in Rhovanion and from their new allies in Khand." 
[email protected]@.......OK......What a great slap to my fanfic😅😅😅. So this means the Wainriders got enough Northmen recons for geographic guides, making them able to pass through the mountains around Mordor supposed to be the obstacles of their dominant units(Cavs, vehicles, and so forth)
How great...

So...let's make these conclusion about Toikein's description to Wainriders
1.Their tactics and strategy relied on well-prepared environment like terrain and chances(surprising attack like what they did to Ondorher) a lot 
2.They mastered Combined-Arms
3.Their "indirect military methods"(Political, diplomatic, and so on) has been mature. For instance, they might use Northmen spies to let their vehicles and Cavs pass through the mountains like how the German passed via Arracourt in WWII.


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## Olorgando (Jul 1, 2020)

Hisoka Morrow said:


> 3.Their "indirect military methods"(Political, diplomatic, and so on) has been mature. For instance, they might use Northmen spies to let their vehicles and Cavs pass through the mountains like how the German passed via Arracourt in WWII.


I think that is contradicted by this statement by JRRT, near the beginning of the second, larger quote by Aldarion yesterday:
"Little or nothing, of course, was known of these designs an movements in Gondor. What is here said was
deduced from the events long afterwards by historians, to whom it was also clear that the hatred of
Gondor, and the alliance of its enemies in concerted action (*for which they themselves had neither the
will nor the wisdom*) was due to the machinations of Sauron."
This might mean the (large) alliances with the people of Khand and further south - with whom they had first come into conflict, so Sauron probably had to step in to stop that. What they were capable of below that level, who knows?


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