# And here is the ultimate question...



## Gilgaearel (Nov 10, 2018)

If Sauron got his ring back, how would he wear it? 

That was a serious question... If he got his ring back how would he be able to wear it. Or it would be better to ask, where would he wear it? In his eye?!  This is something that no one ever asked and I think that not even Sauron himself ever thought about it...


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Nov 10, 2018)

He still had nine fingers left.


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## Eebounnie (Nov 11, 2018)

With the Ring back maybe he will be able to get a new "body. So probably on one of his 9 fingers!


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## Gilgaearel (Nov 11, 2018)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> He still had nine fingers left.



No he didn't. He didn't even have a body to start with. He had only an eye. So how he would be able to use the ring, in case he ever got it?



Eebounnie said:


> With the Ring back maybe he will be able to get a new "body. So probably on one of his 9 fingers!



How? The ring was part of his spirit not part of his material existence. He didn't have a body and his spirit couldn't occupy the body of anyone else because if he could he would had already done it. That is the reason why he operated through his "servants", the Nazguls and so and he himself remained up in his tower as an eye watching them.
He didn't have a body to use the ring.


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## Gothmog (Nov 11, 2018)

Do not mistake Jackson's mess for what Sauron was. He had indeed formed a new body though it had taken him almost all of the Third-age to do so. Gollum had seen him and said this.


> `That would be Minas Ithil that Isildur the son of Elendil built ' said Frodo. `It was Isildur who cut off the finger of the Enemy.'
> 
> `Yes, He has only four on the Black Hand, but they are enough,' said Gollum shuddering. 'And He hated Isildur's city.'
> 
> *The Two Towers: Chapter 3. The Black Gate is Closed*


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## Eebounnie (Nov 11, 2018)

Gilgaearel said:


> How? The ring was part of his spirit not part of his material existence. He didn't have a body and his spirit couldn't occupy the body of anyone else because if he could he would had already done it. That is the reason why he operated through his "servants", the Nazguls and so and he himself remained up in his tower as an eye watching them.
> He didn't have a body to use the ring.



He had already used the Ring to get a body, as Gothmog said it was an extremely long processus but he did. I'm not totally sure that he could do it again but it's a possibility.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Nov 11, 2018)

Representing on film a character who doesn't actually appear is admittedly a difficult problem, especially when the Eye of Sauron is such a central image in the book. I _think_ it could be done, but one thing is clear: PJ's "Sauron the Evil Lighthouse" is now the conception held by many people, despite the evidence in the book.

As for your question, Eebounnie, I tend to picture it this way: as Gandalf tells Frodo, 'he let a great part of his own former power pass into it'; that power still existed; the Ring was "active" in some fashion, as demonstrated repeatedly; therefore the "power" would still operate, connected with Sauron's spirit. So I think this power played a great part in allowing him to reform. It is, after all, a common theme in folk and fairy tales: a being hides his heart, or other parts, outside himself in a box, or a tree, or cave, thus making himself invulnerable. Tolkien mentioned this trope in "On Fairy Stories", and the Ring is a development of it.

It would seem that Sauron's spirit was banished or "dissipated" for a long time; interestingly, it looks very much, from the Tale of Years, that his spirit coalesced into a force first, and then slowly re-embodied itself:

TA 1050: _'About this time a shadow falls on Greenwood, and men begin to call it Mirkwood.'_ It's notable that this coincides with the appearance of the Istari; apparently, the Valar were aware of the nature of the threat at once, even if Elves and Men were not. It seems not:

1100: _'The Wise (the Istari and the chief Eldar) discover that an evil power has made a stronghold at Dol Guldur. __It is thought to be one of the Nazgul.'_

It may seem strange for the Istari to make such an error, as they had been sent especially to contend with Sauron, but as a note in Unfinished Tales says:

_"For it is said indeed that being embodied the Istari had need to learn much anew by slow experience. . ."_

At any rate, even in "disembodied" form, his spirit regained more and more power:
c.1300: _'Evil things begin to multiply again. Orcs increase in the Misty Mountains and attack the Dwarves. The Nazgul reappear.'
_
It's not clear when, exactly, Sauron became fully re-embodied, but as said above, it took a long time:

2060: _'The power of Dol Guldur grows. The Wise fear that it may be Sauron taking shape again.'
_
The following is open to interpretation:

2063: _'Gandalf goes to Dol Guldur. Sauron retreats and hides in the East.'_

As is this:

2460: _'The Watchful Peace ends. Sauron returns with increased strength to Dol Guldur.'_

Ambiguous, but it _may _indicate that Sauron was fully embodied by this point; in any event, I believe it was accomplished by the time Gandalf made his second foray:

2850: _'Gandalf again enters Dol Guldur, and discovers that its master is indeed Sauron, who is gathering all the Rings and seeking for news of the One, and Isildur's heir.'_
At least it seems to show a more "physical" interaction with the world.

Oh, and Eebounnie -- welcome to the forum! 

BTW -- I think the above sequence may perhaps help to answer the problem posed in Musica's last post here:

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/inde...r-that-you-find-irritating.23762/#post-518944

That is, if Sauron did indeed believe, as Gandalf told Frodo, that the Ring had been destroyed, then when his spirit began to coalesce, he must have attributed this to his own Maiar nature, and his own will, rather than the continued existence of the Ring. We could then say that he _was _"using" the Ring to reform, but was unaware of it.

Therefore, when he discovered the Ring had _not_ been destroyed, but still existed, he must have quailed: he would now be aware that it was not merely through his own willpower that he was able to return. In which case, should it actually _be_ destroyed, it would mean his doom -- or at the very least, a _permanent _"dissipation". No wonder he was desperate to recover it: he knew now that it was vital, not only to the complete renewal of his powers, but to his very existence.

Fortunately, the non-destruction of the Ring at the end of the Second Age led him to conclude that the Elves and Men were incapable of doing so, and so his fear was that some powerful figure among them would claim it, with the result we see in the story.


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## Elthir (Nov 11, 2018)

In addition to Gollum's comment about Sauron's hand, here's a bit of Tolkien's commentary (from his letters) about the incarnate Sauron of the Third Age:

"In the contest with the Palantír Aragorn was the rightful owner. Also the contest took place at a distance, and in a tale which allows the incarnation of great spirits in a physical and destructible form their power must be far greater when actually physically present. Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a Man of more than average stature, but not gigantic. In his earlier incarnation he was able to veil his power (as Gandalf did) and could appear as a commanding figure of great strength of body and supremely royal demeanour and countenance." JRRT

Sauron must be the _incarnated_ great spirit referred to here, but since he is at a distance during this struggle (in the Third Age) Aragorn also has this advantage. Another letter begins...

"I note your remarks about Sauron. He was always de-bodied when vanquished. [and goes on] (…) It was thus that Sauron appeared in this shape. It is mythologically supposed that when this shape was "real", that is a physical actuality in the physical world and not a vision transferred from mind to mind, it took some time to build up. It was then destructible like other physical organisms. But that of course did not destroy the spirit, nor dismiss it from the world to which it was bound until the end. After the battle with Gilgalad and Elendil, Sauron took a long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the Downfall of Númenor (I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, that might be called the "will" or the effective link between the indestructible mind and being and the realization of its imagination). The impossibility of re-building after the destruction of the Ring, is sufficiently clear "mythologically" in the present book." JRRT

I note the impossibility of re-building after the destruction of the Ring, not after having lost possession. Another:

"After which the Third Age began, a Twilight Age, a Medium Aevum, the first of the broken and changed world; the last of the lingering dominion of visible fully incarnate Elves, and the last also in which Evil assumes a single dominant incarnate shape." JRRT Letters

Not that anyone's arguing otherwise at this point, but I collected these long ago


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Nov 11, 2018)

Thanks, Galin. I thought about including that bit about the difficulty of rebuilding in my post, but was too lazy to get up and pull it off the shelf.


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## Elthir (Nov 11, 2018)

You could always use the inherent energy of your spirit to rebuild that post later


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Nov 11, 2018)

No ring, though. 

Well, maybe this one:



Doesn't help much.


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## Gothmog (Nov 11, 2018)

Would help me


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## Miguel (Nov 11, 2018)




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## Gilgaearel (Nov 11, 2018)

Gothmog & All said:


> Do not mistake Jackson's mess for what Sauron was. He had indeed formed a new body though it had taken him almost all of the Third-age to do so. Gollum had seen him and said this.



Sorry but I disagree. The whole universe knew that Isildur had cut off one of Sauron's fingers but the only one who claims that he ever saw Sauron was Gollum who wasn't the most reliable person.
If Sauron had a body why didn't he get out of his tower to seek for his ring himself? It would be very easy for him to get it as the Ring was looking for his master too.
And if he was able to reconstruct his body, he would be probably able to deconstruct it too and re materialize it on whatever place he liked. Let's say outside the front door of Mr. Bilbo Baggins.

ETA.. I have again problems with the editor...


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Nov 11, 2018)

Gilgaearel said:


> And if he was able to reconstruct his body, he would be probably able to deconstruct it too and rematerialize on whatever place he liked. Let's say the front door of Mr. Bilbo Baggins.



Reread the second passage from Tolkien's letters Galin quoted:


> _Sauron took a long while to rebuild_



According to The Tale of Years cited above, we're talking about at _least _two thousand years; it's not a question of just appearing and dissappearing whenever you like.

Or wherever: it seems clear that Sauron created a "safe space" in Mirkwood, before beginning the slow and difficult process of rebuilding.

As for searching for the Ring in person, can you really picture him tromping around in the mud of the Anduin?

I think it's put best by Denethor:


> _'Not--not the Dark Lord?' cried Pippin, forgetting his place in his terror.
> 
> Denethor laughed bitterly. 'Nay, not yet, Master Peregrin! He uses others as his weapons. So do all great lords, if they are wise, Master Halfling. Or why should I sit in my tower and think, and watch, and wait, spending even my sons?'_



Finally, what reason would Gollum have for lying about the physical existence of Sauron?


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## Gothmog (Nov 12, 2018)

Gilgaearel said:


> Sorry but I disagree. The whole universe knew that Isildur had cut off one of Sauron's fingers but the only one who claims that he ever saw Sauron was Gollum who wasn't the most reliable person.
> If Sauron had a body why didn't he get out of his tower to seek for his ring himself? It would be very easy for him to get it as the Ring was looking for his master too.
> And if he was able to reconstruct his body, he would be probably able to deconstruct it too and re materialize it on whatever place he liked. Let's say outside the front door of Mr. Bilbo Baggins.
> 
> ETA.. I have again problems with the editor...


From where do you get the idea that "The whole universe knew"?


> From The Fellowship of the Ring: Chapter 2. The Council of Elrond
> 
> 
> `I was the herald of Gil-galad and marched with his host. I was at the Battle of Dagorlad before the Black Gate of Mordor, where we had the mastery: for the Spear of Gil-galad and the Sword of Elendil, Aiglos and Narsil, none could withstand. I beheld the last combat on the slopes of Orodruin, where Gil-galad died, and Elendil fell, and Narsil broke beneath him; but Sauron himself was overthrown, and Isildur cut the Ring from his hand with the hilt-shard of his father's sword, and took it for his own.'
> ...


As for Sauron leaving his tower to find the Ring, although it was His Ring and had the Greater part of his power within it, the Ring did not make itself known like some great torch. Sauron was not able to sense where the Ring was unless it was being used And the person using it was looking towards him such as happened on Amon Hen.

Read through the chapter "The Breaking of the Fellowship" to see how even when he had an exact line for where the Ring was he could not find it if it was not being worn. And as our knowledgeable Southerner points out, Souron did not do his own work when he could have is minions do it for him.


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## Elthir (Nov 12, 2018)

To my mind Tolkien is consistent about an ultimately incarnate, Third Age Sauron. For me, Gollum's description goes well with the explanations above (from letters written at various times), which also go well with statements like: "True, alas, is our guess. This is not one of the Ulairi, as many have long supposed. It is Sauron himself who has taken shape again and grows apace; and he is gathering again all the Rings to his hand;..." _Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age_

This quote alone might be open to interpretation, and one could call Gollum unreliable, but for me, all the references work together, leaving us with a second Dark Lord who incarnates himself just as Morgoth did, and so, is destructible . . . but not returnable with the ring destroyed.


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## Gilgaearel (Nov 12, 2018)

Gothmog said:


> From where do you get the idea that "The whole universe knew"?



There were plenty of witnesses present. The whole Last Alliance troops and their opponents. One moment they were fighting and the next one the army of the enemy became leaderless. Do you really think that those present didn't realize that? That they were all so clueless for the reasons why the battle ended?
Only those in the first rows so Sauron getting out of his castle with full armor to fight?

They might didn't know that Isildur kept the ring , but it was known that he cut the finger that wore that ring.
In any case the only one who claims that he saw Sauron is the Gollum. No one else.



> As for Sauron leaving his tower to find the Ring, although it was His Ring and had the Greater part of his power within it, the Ring did not make itself known like some great torch. Sauron was not able to sense where the Ring was unless it was being used And the person using it was looking towards him such as happened on Amon Hen.
> 
> Read through the chapter "The Breaking of the Fellowship" to see how even when he had an exact line for where the Ring was he could not find it if it was not being worn. And as our knowledgeable Southerner points out, Souron did not do his own work when he could have is minions do it for him.



He knew Bilbo's name and address for gods sake! 
If he had a body, I assume that he would be able to pay a visit to Hobbiton.
Don't forget that Bilbo had it for 60 years and Frodo for at least another 18 and in between the Gollum had got out of his cave and had already been interrogated in Mordor.
If Sauron had a body he would have had plenty of time to go himself and get his ring back.



Galin said:


> To my mind Tolkien is consistent about an ultimately incarnate, Third Age Sauron. For me, Gollum's description goes well with the explanations above (from letters written at various times), which also go well with statements like: "True, alas, is our guess. This is not one of the Ulairi, as many have long supposed. It is Sauron himself who has taken shape again and grows apace; and he is gathering again all the Rings to his hand;..." _Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age_
> 
> This quote alone might be open to interpretation, and one could call Gollum unreliable, but for me, all the references work together, leaving us with a second Dark Lord who incarnates himself just as Morgoth did, and so, is destructible . . . but not returnable with the ring destroyed.




They might if we try hard to gather evidences from phrases here and there in the books.
The fact though is that if Sauron had been reincarnated, re bodied or whatever, he would have been out himself looking for his ring and he would have participated the/any battles and joined also the Nazguls to their quest for the ring. They would have made a Super Duper Ten fellowship I guess..


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Nov 13, 2018)

Gilgaearel said:


> He knew Bilbo's name and address for gods sake!



He learned from Gollum only two pieces of information: that the Ring was stolen by a creature called _Baggins,_ who claimed to be from a place called _Shire. _As Gollum did not know where that was, neither did Sauron.

This is made explicit in "The Hunt for the Ring", but is consistent with Gandalf's words to Frodo in "The Shadow of the Past":


> _'And he has at last heard, I think, of _ hobbits _and the_ Shire.
> _
> The Shire -- he may be seeking for it now, if he has not already found out where it lies. Indeed, Frodo, I fear he may even think that the long-unnoticed name of _Baggins _ has become important.'_



As is laid out in "The Hunt for the Ring", the Nazgul first searched for "Shire" in the Vales of the Anduin, eventually going far to the north, fruitlessly. This was a fatal error, as it turned out: it gave time for Frodo to escape.


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## Gothmog (Nov 13, 2018)

Yes the whole of the armies of the west did indeed know when Sauron was thrown down and they had the victory. However, there were only three persons who saw the actual fight between Sauron, Gil-gallad and Ellendil and knew what happened to the ring. Or do you think that Boromir was lying when he said that `If ever such a tale was told in the South, it has long been forgotten. I have heard of the Great Ring of him that we do not name; but we believed that it perished from the world in the ruin of his first realm. Isildur took it! That is tidings indeed.' Such knowledge, if well known, would be remembered by Boromir even though he was not a lore-master. That knowledge was recorded in one scroll by Isildur himself and left in the library in Minas Tirith. Few, if any of the Lore-masters of Gondor would have access to this and likely none had read it until Gandalf did so. As for going to the Shire to retrieve the Ring, he did so. The Nazgul did only what Sauron willed. Why should he spend time traveling when his most trusted servants were available to do so?

Also, the last two times Sauron left the safety of the Barad-dur his body was destroyed. He was not likely to risk all his hard work of building a new body to go sneaking around unprotected and taking a large force to protect himself would have called attention to what he was doing and likely resulted in a battle that he would not be able to win. Sending out the Nazgul would achieve the same end without the risk of battle or risk to his precious skin.

While a character like Aragorn would, upon hearing where something was, say "Lets go and get it", Sauron is more of the type that would send his servants and say "Fetch!"


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Nov 13, 2018)

Again, we can look to Denethor as a parallel: he was lord of City and country, involved in defending both against an aggressive power; it would have been foolish for him to leave a Gondor under threat to "seek for the Sword that was Broken" in Imaldris. And Sauron was a lord far greater than he, preparing to conduct a war of conquest.

The only real-world parallel I can think of off the top of my head is if FDR had left Washington in the middle of WWII to personally oversee the Manhattan Project.

Actually a closer parallel would be if he had entered occupied Europe himself, to try to steal the plans for the Atomic Bomb from the Nazis. He had spies to do that. They weren't Nazgul, but their purposes were similar: a "stealth mission" to find a key to victory.

I'm still wondering why Gollum would lie about seeing Sauron.

However, if Tolkien's own explicit statements, as quoted by Galin, don't convince you, I doubt anything anyone says here can.


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## Gothmog (Nov 13, 2018)

As for Gollum lying about seeing Sauron, the point at which he mentioned this he was not being questioned about Sauron or anything to do with him being in Mordor. This was an "off-hand" answer to a comment made by Frodo. It is very unlikely that Gollum would bother to invent such a lie when he had no need to give any answer to what Frodo said.


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## BountyHunter (Nov 26, 2018)

Sauron was totally going for the nipple ring look this time around.


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