# Cirdan the shipwright



## Dáin Ironfoot I (Jan 3, 2003)

I'm not totally sure if this has been brought up or not, but in the ROTK, in the Grey Havens, there is the following passage:



> As they came to the gates Cirdan the Shipwright came forth to greet them. Very tall he was, and his beard was long; and he was grey and old...



Now Cirdan was an Elf, so why did he have a beard?


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## Aulë (Jan 3, 2003)

Very strange that one....

I do remember why he was there though:



> Cirdan later surrended his (ring) to Mithrandir. For Cirdan saw further and deeper than any other in Middle-Earth, and he welcomed Mithrandir at the Grey Havens, knowing whence he came whither he would return.
> 'Take this ring, Master,' he said, 'for your labours will be heavy; but it will support you in the weariness that you have taken upon yourself. For this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill. But as for me, my heart is with the Sea, and I will dwell by the grey shores until the last ship sails. I will await you.'


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## Confusticated (Jan 4, 2003)

Maybe most elves just didn't like beards, but Cirdan was diferent? Or, maybe Tolkien only mentions Cirdan's beard because it's so long. He mentions long beards a lot.


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## FoolOfATook (Jan 4, 2003)

Is it every explicitly stated that Elves _can't_ grow beards? Nothing of that sort comes to mind. I'm of the school of thought that Tolkien included the long beard to really convey just how old Cirdan is.


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## Bombadillo (Jan 4, 2003)

in my opinion all elves could grow beards, it is never stated otherwise, but the elves razorblades are so damn sharp, that they dont have to shave very often....
most razors are sharper then knives, sharper then an elvish blade... WOW


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## Eledhwen (Jan 4, 2003)

*Círdan's beard*

I always rationalised this anomaly by telling myself that though Elves did not grow beards, they could if they wanted to. It is common for seafarers to sport a beard and moustache (indeed, the Royal Navy will allow only clean-shaven or full set), and Círdan is an Elf of the Teleri, shipwrights whose skill in shipbuilding caused them to suffer the first kinslaying of the Elves (Silmarillion - Of the Flight of the Noldor).


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## Lantarion (Jan 4, 2003)

I think that due to the fact that Elves mature so incredibly slowly, their beards also take decades to grow. It would make sense you know.
And as to why Círdan would even want a beard, I cannot se his reasoning at all. Wouldn't it just be in the way of his ship-building?


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## Cian (Jan 4, 2003)

As regards the beard question here, of interest (anyway) might be a note written by JRRT and ultimately published in _Vinyar Tengwar_
_____
_"Elves did not have beards until they entered their third cycle of life. Nerdanel's father [cf. XII: 365-66 n. 61] was exceptional, being only early in his second."_ ~JRRT
_____

I don't know anything more to date about the 'cycles'

¤


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## j0n4th4n (Jan 4, 2003)

What I find interesting in this is that Tolkien says he was 'grey and old'. I thought Elves didn't become old-looking..Perhaps they only did after a very, very long time.


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## Dáin Ironfoot I (Jan 9, 2003)

It just doesn't make sense... Tolkien was always so careful and particular of the minor details. Does anyone have a quote that Elves cannot grow beards? Or is it just a "given"?


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## morello13 (Jan 9, 2003)

dain look what tolkien said



> _Originally posted by Cian _
> *As regards the beard question here, of interest (anyway) might be a note written by JRRT and ultimately published in Vinyar Tengwar
> _____
> "Elves did not have beards until they entered their third cycle of life. Nerdanel's father [cf. XII: 365-66 n. 61] was exceptional, being only early in his second." ~JRRT
> ...


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## lossenandunewen (Jan 9, 2003)

maybe he had a beard because it made him look more like a sailor  

or maybe because a life on the sea can age people tremendously
or maybe he saw more in his time then an elf would see in double the time

but i don't know because i never actually thought about that


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## Thorin (Jan 9, 2003)

Cirdan was about 10500 years old at the time of LoTR. Galadriel was about 8500. So according to Cian's quote, Cirdan was in his third stage. All the other elves were younger than Galadriel (even Celeborn).

I hope Galadriel doesn't mind her beard in a few millenia.


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## Dáin Ironfoot I (Jan 9, 2003)

O... sorry Thorin I thought that quote from Cian was part of his signature.  Anywho, is there any direct quotes stating Elves had pointy ears? Im sure its in the intro to the Lotr somewhere


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## Lantarion (Jan 10, 2003)

Lol, you sure know how to change a subject, Dáin! 
In the Silmarillion I'm pretty sure it's stated that Elves had "leaf-shaped ears". And the intro to the LotR does have smoething about Hobbits' ears, also being leaf-shaped. But "pointy" isn't really a very Tolkienesque word, though, and I doubt that he even uses it.


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## Cian (Jan 10, 2003)

The usual 'main ear' quotes are from _Letters_ and _Etymologies_ (HOME).

In Etymologies see the 'connection' between leaf-words and listen-words. And LOTR examples (Sindarin): _Lasto_ 'Listen' and ... well 'leaf-words' are easy enough to find 

The quote in Etymologies: 



> 'The Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than [?Humans]



Words in [?...] mean some doubt in reading the word is noted. Anyway, I don't think you'll find a direct statement in LOTR or Silmarillion. Etymologies is (basically) a pre-LOTR document, though there is overlap.

[See therein stems LAS1 and LAS2, and there may likely be a further stem S-LAS according to the experts].


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