# What if Gandalf had recognized the One Ring immediately?



## pranghus (Dec 15, 2020)

This is a hypothetical I've been wondering about, but I couldn't find a discussion of it anywhere online (partly because it's a hard one to know how to search). It might technically be a question for The Hobbit forum, but it relates more to the plot of LOTR in my opinion.

Let's say that during The Hobbit, as soon as Gandalf saw the ring that Bilbo had picked up, through a combination of intuition and memory, and ignoring his better judgment, Gandalf had realized that it was the One Ring. Presumably he would have initiated the quest to destroy it right then and there, or at least soon after the Battle of Five Armies.

My question is: how much easier would it have been at that time to destroy the Ring, or would it have even been possible? Some points I'm considering:

* Would Gandalf have known that a hobbit was the best choice for a ring bearer without the hindsight of 77 years of hobbits having the Ring?
* Although he probably still would have avoided it out of safety, was there as much of a risk if someone like Gandalf or Elrond took the Ring at that time? Could they have borne it long enough without corruption to get it to Mount Doom?
* If they did enter Mordor, would there already have been forces allied with Sauron there at this time, or would it just be unorganized Orcs and creatures and such? Sauron himself was still in Dol Guldur at the time I believe, and Barad Dur was not yet rebuilt.
* If a Ring-bearer had managed to make it to Mount Doom, would they even have been able to destroy the Ring? Does the physical or magical activity of the Cracks of Doom depend on Sauron or another sufficiently powerful presence in Mordor?

Just curious to hear everyone's thoughts, and I'm sure there are some sources out there with answers to at least some of these questions. If there's already a discussion of this topic somewhere that I couldn't find, I would appreciate a link. Thanks!


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## Maiar1996 (Dec 15, 2020)

It is quite an interesting thing to think about considering all of the chains of events that could have been effected, knowing what we know now. To answer your question of regarding a powerful presence being required. Isildur could have destroyed the ring right after he destroyed Sauron. As for entering Mordor. At the time Sauron was working in secret building himself, and his forces. The world had been at "peace" for some time so Men, and Elves would have a much higher probability of success at that time. Jumping to your first question in regards to the Hobbits ability to bear the ring. Gandalf had not known that until their journey together. Hobbits are folk lore to many and are widely unknown. Now for the most interesting question of the bunch. Could the likes of Gandalf or Elrond have bore the ring to Mordor. I believe that if they thought that they could they would have. Many a time have Gandalf and Elrond have done things without the help of Hobbits. They are again, unknown to the world. They are unaware and unprepared to deal with the hardships outside of their safe "closed off" lands. There could have been many other "logical" choices to who would bear the ring. It is my belief that since Gandalf and Elrond have such a strong connection to the world that they would be more susceptible to the rings powers. It is partly the "disconnect" that aides the hobbits in their journeys. I also believe that if anyone other than a Hobbit (or perhaps Aragorn and not just any hobbit) would have bore the ring, that the same cycle would have repeated until the dark lord came into power once again. This was so much fun. My first real post! I am excited to continue to be a part of an amazing community!


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## Alcuin (Dec 15, 2020)

Welcome *pranghus* and *Maiar1996*.

*pranghus*, this is a good question. My first observation – and I trust others will add to what *Maiar1996* and I say today – is that Saruman was not yet recognized as an enemy and traitor to his mission. For so weighty a matter, I expect Gandalf would have taken counsel with Elrond, Galadriel, _and_ Saruman, as quickly as might be arranged. Lórien was the closest Elven stronghold – as Thorin put it – “on the East side of these truly hospitable mountains,” the Misty Mountains. It is not as if they could safely return to Rivendell with the Goblins on the watch! So I think that, had Gandalf immediately recognized Bilbo’s Ring for what it was, we can expect that Saruman would have soon obtained it for himself. 

Your question is tangled with other such questions: For instance, Gandalf said that he realized immediately that Bilbo’s ring was a Great Ring (_FotR_, “Shadow of the Past”) :[When] Bilbo found his ring[, a] shadow fell on my heart then, though I did not know yet what I feared. I wondered often how Gollum came by a Great Ring, as plainly it was – that at least was clear from the first. Then I heard Bilbo’s strange story of how he had “won” it, and I could not believe it.​Yet Gandalf knew that the Three and the Nine were accounted for, and that at Sauron had at least one of the Seven, Durin’s Ring, leaving six more of the Seven unaccounted for, unless he knew the disposition of the others, as it appears he did, or at least had some notion of their fates by the time of “Shadow of the Past”, for he told Frodo, “three [of the Seven Sauron] has recovered, and the others the dragons have consumed,” though perhaps that knowledge came to him subsequent to Bilbo’s adventures with Thorin & Co. Tolkien, his son and literary executor Christopher said, was sometimes given to hyperbole (who isn’t?), so perhaps Gandalf did not “_immediately_” realize Bilbo’s ring was a Great Ring and mistook it for one of the Noldor’s earlier “magic” rings. (That’s speculative.) 

At the “Council of Elrond”, Gandalf said he “let the matter rest … until my doubts were awakened again to sudden fear. Whence came the hobbit’s ring? What, if my fear was true, should be done with it? … But I spoke yet of my dread to none, knowing the peril of an untimely whisper, if it went astray. In all the long wars with the Dark Tower treason has ever been our greatest foe.” His fear was that Bilbo’s ring really _was_ Sauron’s Ruling Ring. The notion seemed outrageous, but it was not impossible. 

You are correct, pranghus, that Sauron did not begin rebuilding Barad-dûr for another ten years after Bilbo’s adventures. But he clearly held control of Mordor and its accesses through the vigilance of the Nazgûl and his servants: we should expect that none could enter by Cirith Gorgor unnoticed by Orcs and other creatures, nor by the Morgul Pass past Minas Morgul and the Tower of Cirith Ungol: even Gollum, Frodo and Sam were noticed by Shagrat’s company in the Tower there, though they were fortunately mistaken for prisoners sent for their torment and Shelob’s amusement. 

Gandalf was afraid to take the Ring just to keep it safely: he did not trust himself with it. Elrond and Galadriel, too, had come to the same conclusion: “this the Great had well considered and had rejected, as is seen in Elrond's words at the Council.” (_Letter_ 246) At the Council, when Boromir urged that they use the One Ring to defeat Sauron, Elrond replied,We cannot use the Ruling Ring. … It belongs to Sauron and was made by him alone, and is altogether evil. Its strength … is too great for anyone to wield at will, save only those who have already a great power of their own. But for them it holds an even deadlier peril. The very desire of it corrupts the heart. … If any of the Wise should with this Ring overthrow the Lord of Mordor, using his own arts, he would then set himself on Sauron’s throne, and yet another Dark Lord would appear.​So also Galadriel rejected the Ring when Frodo proffered it to her, though not without a struggle, even after such long consideration. None of them – Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel, and certainly not Saruman! – could have resisted the Ring, I suspect, and I suppose the same would be true for Glorfindel or even Aragorn, though at the time Thorin & Co first passed through Rivendell, he was but a boy of ten years. 

As to whether anyone could carry Sauron’s Ring to the places of its forging, the seat of Sauron’ power, and willingly destroy it is an excellent question. Frodo could not: it had all but consumed him, beaten him down spiritually, mentally, psychologically; and Frodo was, if you will, the “perfect” Ringbearer, who forbore to use it except when in direst need (e.g., escaping from Boromir), particularly following the Council of Elrond and his horrific experiences from Weathertop to the Bruinen. I don’t know if the power of the Cracks of Doom on a Ringbearer was absent in Sauron’s absence from Mordor, but I doubt it: Isildur vanquished Sauron when he seized the Ring, then fell to its temptation at once, refusing to destroy his “precious” weregild. But certainly Sauron’s presence, either actually upon or in the vicinity of Orodruin, enhanced the potency of the Ring’s power and temptation. Of mortals, at least, nor Isildur nor Frodo nor Gollum could resist its lure. In the _Reader’s Companion_ chapter on “Many Meetings”, Hammond and Scull cite David Cremona,it is part of the _schema_ of _The Lord of the Rings_ that what seems to be setbacks, blunders and delays, turn out to have been useful shortcuts; though I think Tolkien would have argued that, had they done otherwise, with a good intention, that too might have led to the quest’s end, but by a different path. Ilúvatar, as ever, does not compel or predestine, but his plans are far-seeing and the roads to his ends, many.​


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## grendel (Dec 16, 2020)

Okay first of all, I've often wondered at the idea that Sauron at some point thought the Ring had been destroyed... considering what happened to him when it was eventually cast (taken... pulled...?) into the Cracks of Doom, you'd think that the fact he was still alive and kicking would be a clue that the Ring was still around _somewhere_.

But to play Melkor's advocate here (see what I did there?) - and maybe this is what pranghus is getting at - considering that at the time of The Hobbit Sauron is still somewhat weaker and yet to take shape, perhaps the Ring would have been less potent, slower to work evil and therefore it would have been an easier (relatively speaking) trek to Mordor to destroy it.

On the _other_ other hand, at the Council of Elrond, even with the tales of Bilbo and Frodo and Gandalf, there was still quite a debate about what _could_ and _should_ be done with the Ring. Would they have reached the same conclusions 77 years earlier? The endless possibilities and debate are a big part of the charm of TTT and the inhabitants thereof. Thanks, pranghus, for an interesting question!


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## pranghus (Dec 17, 2020)

grendel said:


> But to play Melkor's advocate here (see what I did there?) - and maybe this is what pranghus is getting at - considering that at the time of The Hobbit Sauron is still somewhat weaker and yet to take shape, perhaps the Ring would have been less potent, slower to work evil and therefore it would have been an easier (relatively speaking) trek to Mordor to destroy it.


Thank you, that was what I was getting at - if Gandalf had seen the Ring and immediately said "Whoa we have to destroy that now," would it have been a relative cakewalk to go destroy it, compared to 60 years later when Barad-dur was rebuilt and Sauron had raised massive armies? And my question about the Cracks of Doom was, if anyone had managed to reach Mount Doom with the Ring at that time, would they still have worked to destroy it? Would they have been less hot or violent, or maybe even crusted over without Sauron at his later level of power?


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## Alcuin (Dec 18, 2020)

pranghus said:


> [I]f Gandalf had seen the Ring and immediately said "Whoa we have to destroy that now," would it have been a relative cakewalk to go destroy it, compared to 60 years later when Barad-dur was rebuilt and Sauron had raised massive armies?


Suppose Gandalf chose to avoid telling Saruman about the Ring. That seems most unlikely – Saruman was Gandalf’s superior in the Order of Istari, and Sauron, his Rings of Power, and his methods were Saruman’s particular specialty, by design: Aulë chose him as chief of the Maiar sent to offset Sauron – but let’s say Gandalf did not include him in deliberations about the Ring. Gandalf needed help from Elrond and Galadriel to get the Ring to Mordor in the book: perhaps he would not need help from these allies had he moved seven (not six) decades earlier – but is that assumption reasonable or merely convenient? 

But _for the sake of argument,_ let’s assume Gandalf can arrange all that, however unlikely. Would getting into Mordor and trekking to Mount Doom have been a “cakewalk” or more like walking through a minefield? Sauron’s agents – the Nazgûl, the Silent Watchers, the Orcs, the Olog-hai (those ent-like trolls that tolerated the sun and were clever and fast), the Men under his domination, and who-knows-what-else – do you suppose they would be content to sit on their fat little butts and just watch Gandalf, a known enemy, lead a party of adventurers into Mordor? This is during the Stewardship of Denethor’s father, Ecthelion II: Ecthelion did not use the palantír of Minas Anor (Tirith), he had no scouts _inside_ Mordor: Appendix A says that “the race of uruks, black orcs of great strength, first appeared out of Mordor” in “the last years of Denethor I”, who died in III 2477, and these Orcs led an attack on Osgiliath that resulted in the final ruin of Gondor’s ancient capital in 2475. Thorin & Co set out in III 2941, 464 years later: the earlier Stewards had no idea there were Uruk-hai in Mordor until they met them in battle: I don’t think they had reliable information on what was happening in Mordor for centuries, and it sure doesn’t seem reasonable to me that _anyone_ could traverse the Cirith Gorgor or the Morgul Pass, much less the plain of Gorgoroth, without being noticed. Frodo and Sam managed to get through because Aragorn used himself as bait, acting in a way that made Sauron think _he_ had the Ring, emptying all Mordor by rushing all his forces to the Black Gate to utterly overwhelm what Sauron presumed to be a presumptuous new Ring Lord. 

Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe crossing the Cirith Gorgor or the Morgul Pass, then the plain of Gorgoroth was the Middle-earth equivalent of a walk in the park. But I don’t think so. Gandalf’s strategy at “The Last Debate” was to continue Aragorn’s strategy of deception and build upon it, marching out to meet Sauron at once, pushing him to the “last throw” using the Host of the West as bait so that he emptied all Mordor of guards, sentinels, patrols, and armies – everything he had – to crush Aragorn and the West. It sounds to me as if Mordor was normally teeming with Orcs and Men, besides whatever else was there; but maybe I’m mistaken. 



pranghus said:


> [M]y question about the Cracks of Doom was, if anyone had managed to reach Mount Doom with the Ring at that time, would they still have worked to destroy it? Would they have been less hot or violent, or maybe even crusted over without Sauron at his later level of power?


That’s a good question. As far as I know, there is nothing written on the subject, but I suspect that the presence of the Ring would awaken the volcano to some degree or another. Finding lava, exposed magma, might have been more difficult. It’s clear that Sauron had excited the volcano to considerable eruptive activity during the War of the Ring, certainly more than usual. 

This much is certain: Had Gandalf reacted sooner, leading a party to destroy the Ring, we’d have a _very_ different story! It’s most unlikely Aragorn would have been accepted as King of Gondor, or received Elrond’s permission to marry Arwen: he was only a boy at the time. We can be certain that if Saruman found out about the venture – and he probably would – he’d have attempted to get the Ring for himself. Thorin & Co would likely have proven most uncoöperative unless their quest was already completed, and if it were not, if Gandalf acted before the White Council drove Sauron from Dol Guldur, not only would Smaug still be _in situ_, Sauron would have been, too. Durin’s Bane would still be a threat to Lórien when Sauron finally struck. 

One of Tolkien’s themes buried in the story is that things happen when they should happen: As Gandalf put it, “more than one power [was] at work[:] Bilbo was _meant_ to find the Ring, and _not_ its maker. In which case [Frodo was] _meant_ to have it. And that may be an encouraging thought.”


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## Aramarien (Dec 30, 2020)

An interesting question that I have often thought about too. A closer look at Appendix B, "The Tale of the Years" , The Third Age can be enlightening. In 1300, the Nazgul reappear and in 1980, the Witch King comes to Mordor and there gathers the Nazgul. In 2000, the Nazgul issue from Mordor and in 2002 Minas Ithil has come under the power of the Nazgul and is called Minas Morgul. 
Meanwhile, the power of Dul Guldur grows in 2060 and the Wise fear it is Sauron. Not until 2460 does the White Council form. In 2850, Gandalf enters Dol Guldor and discovers that indeed Sauron is master there and finds Thrain there and receives the keys of Erebor.

Gondor knew about the Uruks in 2901 when most of the remaining inhabitants of Ithilien fled. 

2941 is the important year when Bilbo finds the Ring, the Battle of the Five Armies, Attack on Dul Guldur by the White Council and Sauron, having made his plans, abandons Dol Guldur. 

Interestingly, in 2951, almost ten years later, is when Sauron declares himself openly and gathers power in Mordor and begins rebuilding Barad-dur and three years later, in 2954, Mount Doom bursts into flame again. 

There are so many things to consider here. If Gandalf tried to scheme to destroy The Ring soon after Bilbo found it, would Mt Doom, seemingly dormant at the time, as pranghas suggested, be enough to destroy it? Perhaps it might, because the door of the Sammath Naur would still be there that went to the core of Orodruin, the Chambers of Fire. 

Gandalf may or may not have told Saruman of his plans. He did not tell Saruman of the finding of the Ring, but did seem to confide in Elrond and Galadriel. 
The first part of the journey either from the Shire or even Rivendell would be much easier, although Moria was already overrun by Orcs and the Misty Mountains were populated by Orcs. Saruman did not build up his armies to their full strength yet. Who would be the Ringbearer? Elrond, Galadriel, and Gandalf all knew that what the lure of the Ring could do. Aragorn was a boy at the time, Frodo not even born yet. Would they have chosen Bilbo, or more precisely, would Bilbo have volunteered to destroy the Ring? I had often thought would Bilbo be able to be the Ringbearer. He had a pure heart, but Bilbo had used it many times during his adventures and it had proven to be a great aid in his endeavors for good. Would he have been able to see The Ring as evil, especially if it was proposed to destroy it soon after all his adventures?

To enter Mordor would still be very difficult, even if it was less guarded as it was during the War of the Ring. It was still guarded. Minas Morgul was occupied by the Nazgul. Even Gollum was captured when he tried to enter Mordor, as sneaky and as sly as he was. I believe that the plan would still have to be quiet and stealthy, because Gandalf and company did not have enough strength to openly challenge Mordor to march in and destroy the Ring. 

Also, the big question..... who would have had the ability to destroy the Ring in the end? Perhaps if someone, like a hobbit, such as Bilbo was the Ring bearer and Elrond, for example took it at the last minute and threw it in? A mortal would not be able to resist the ring in the end. 
Someone powerful like Elrond, Gandalf, or Galadriel would not be able to resist the lure of power.


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## Sir Eowyn (Jan 25, 2021)

I made a thread some time ago about Gandalf's almost incredible meticulousness in finding out it was the One Ring... having suspicions for a good 60 years, and then 17 years of research, when it was really obvious right from the start. But that is not the subject here, and you all raise some interesting points. Had Gandalf acted at once, who knows what would have happened? No cakewalk, likely, however you slice it.


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## Alatar's Brethren (Mar 22, 2021)

Well….not sure this is the best place to make ones first post, but…might as well jump into the fire…….

If memory serves me (and it doesn’t so much anymore……plus I’m not ever going to be the Lore Masters that several other members are here, so you’ll have to forgive my errors.)…..if memory serves me, Bilbo didn’t actually share with Gandalf that he had The Ring until after Gandalf had returned from the White Counsel meeting. In fact, I do not believe there is anywhere in the Hobbit that Bilbo shares that information with Gandalf. He does share it with the dwarves, when he disappears in Flies and Spiders. That he’s going to ‘disappear’. And how he’s going to do so.

If I remember correctly, Gandalf ‘forces’ the true story about how Bilbo acquired the ring at some later date. (Mentioned in FoTR)

My point here is that there would have been no motivation for Gandalf to immediately abandon the Erebor quest at the Goblin back door on the Misty Mountains. He ‘sensed’ something different about Bilbo, but not exactly ‘what’.

But let’s assume that Gandalf did recognize the Ring for what it was immediately after Bilbo informed him. (after the death of Smaug and the Battle of the Five Armies). I do not believe that Gandalf would have taken it upon himself to organize a new quest to destroy the Ring on his own initiative without consulting the White Counsel. That would be completely out of character.

I’ll argue that Gandalf would have had/made Bilbo stop in Rivendell on the way home and there would have been a “Counsel of Elrond”, the makeup of which would have been significantly different, though the outcome of the debate, would have been same. No one of great power and stature can possess this thing, it will eventually corrupt them. It can’t be hidden any more. It has to be destroyed and some small group must attempt to do so, secretly. A fools errand, but the best hope. I’ll say that getting the thing TOO Mordor would likely have been easier, though Saruman would have needed to be dealt with, but getting INTO Mordor and across the plain to Mount Doom very difficult because I agree with others, the entrances and pathways would be well guarded and watched by Sauron’s minions.

However, let’s make another assumption (how do we spell assume??) that we have a Ringbearer and have got him (or her) to the Cracks of Doom. Only (2) people have been able to willingly give up possession of the Ring. Bilbo, with a solid test of will, and Sam, who only possessed the thing for a very short period of time, reluctantly returned it to his Master, whom he obeys. (As a note, Tom B. did not ‘posses’ the Ring. He handled it, and gave it back. ‘Possession’ as opposed to ‘handle’ is another thread somewhere/sometime later, plus the Ring had no influence on Tom B., also for another thread)

I’ll further argue that NO one would be able, even standing at, or, ESPECIALLY standing at the Cracks of Doom, (one of the places where the Ring is at its most powerful) to get rid of it. As Gandalf said, the thing has a certain ‘will of its own’, and I would guess that self-preservation would be extremely high on its wish list. Therefore, whoever possesses it at that point, will claim it as their own, rather than destroy it.

So, here’s the moral question/dilemma for the group. As a Gandalf, or Elrond, or Glorfindel, or Galadriel, you have the Ringbearer at the edge of the Cracks of Doom, and like Isildur, he/she/they claim it and refuses to do ‘the right thing’. Do you throw them over the edge? (Assuming you physically or magically can) or do you let them walk away……


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## Shadow (Mar 22, 2021)

I think it remains to be seen how the ring would have impacted Sam long term - over a period of many months or years. But he gave the ring back because he accepted Frodo was the ring bearer, and his own possession was done out of necessity rather than greed. He was a humble gardener who didn’t desire halls of gold or power. Sauron didn‘t have anything to tempt him with. That was his superpower in the end.

As for the Cracks of Doom, I don’t think Middle Earth could tolerate someone walking away again. The situation had to be resolved. If that meant throwing the person in, then so be it. Gollum served that purpose, and he also died with closure. If the ring was to be destroyed he may as well be with it until the very end.


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## Alcuin (Mar 22, 2021)

Alatar's Brethren said:


> As a Gandalf, or Elrond, or Glorfindel, or Galadriel, you have the Ringbearer at the edge of the Cracks of Doom, and like Isildur, he/she/they claim it and refuses to do ‘the right thing’. Do you throw them over the edge?


Ha! A Tolkien version of the “Trolley Dilemma”!


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Mar 22, 2021)

Alatar's Brethren said:


> ‘Possession’ as opposed to ‘handle’ is another thread somewhere/sometime later


It's been discussed before -- here, for instance:








Incomplete Victory of the Last Alliance: Weaknesss or Inevitability ?


Was Sauron’s resurgence in the 3rd Age pre-ordained and any anticipated victory in the Last Alliance destined to be incomplete? I truly wonder about this…. In order to utterly defeat Sauron himself, his ring had to be taken from him and destroyed: plain and simple. (n.b. I said utterly...




www.thetolkienforum.com





But feel free to start a new thread, or comment on one of the existing ones, if you like.

And welcome to the forum! 😊
If you'd like to introduce yourself "formally", and say something about your particular interests, we have a New Members forum:








New Members


Meet and greet the newest TTF members. -- [ One thread per new member only! ] --




www.thetolkienforum.com


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## Olorgando (Mar 22, 2021)

Alatar's Brethren said:


> ...
> I’ll further argue that NO one would be able, even standing at, or, ESPECIALLY standing at the Cracks of Doom, (one of the places where the Ring is at its most powerful) to get rid of it. As Gandalf said, the thing has a certain ‘will of its own’, and I would guess that self-preservation would be extremely high on its wish list. Therefore, whoever possesses it at that point, will claim it as their own, rather than destroy it.
> ...


With the possible exception of Gollum.
As the scene at the Cracks of Doom is described in the book (not PJ's inane wrestling scene with a - *literal!!!* - cliff-hanger! 🤮 ):

"But Gollum, dancing like a mad thing, held aloft the ring, a finger still thrust within its circle. It shone now as if verily it was wrought of living fire.
'Precious, precious, precious!' Gollum cried. 'My Precious! O my Precious!' And with that, even as his eyes were lifted up to gloat on his prize, he stepped too far, toppled, wavered for a moment on the brink, and then with a shriek he fell. Out of the depths came his last wail _Precious_, and he was gone."

So we can note: Gollum was not _*wearing*_ the One Ring when he fell.
Suppose he had managed to put it on, what then?

Without the faintest doubt, he would then have had 100% of Sauron's full attention, as Frodo had.
Gollum knew Sauron, from his captivity, interrogation and torture in Barad-dûr.
He would have been under no illusion that he could keep the ring, keep it away from Sauron, escape from the very center of Mordor.
But he very certainly was not willing to part with the ring anymore, so just throwing it into the lava wasn't going to happen.

Likely outcome? I think Gollum would have jumped. The only way never to be parted from the ring again.


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## Shadow (Mar 22, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> Likely outcome? I think Gollum would have jumped. The only way never to be parted from the ring again.


Absolutely. He didn't want the ring getting that far, but it did. With the ring in his possession, standing at the Cracks, I think he was going in the lava regardless. If the Enemy stole the ring from Frodo beforehand I believe he would cling on to life, holding out hope it could be taken back somehow. Just as he did after the ring was lost to Bilbo.


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## Alcuin (Mar 23, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> Gollum knew Sauron, from his captivity, interrogation and torture in Barad-dûr.
> He would have been under no illusion that he could keep the ring, keep it away from Sauron, escape from the very center of Mordor.
> But he very certainly was not willing to part with the ring anymore, so just throwing it into the lava wasn't going to happen.
> 
> Likely outcome? I think Gollum would have jumped. The only way never to be parted from the ring again.





Shadow said:


> I think [Gollum] was going in the lava regardless.


I think this was Tolkien’s assessment, too.


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## Alatar's Brethren (Mar 23, 2021)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> It's been discussed before -- here, for instance:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you all for the comments and welcome. The new member’s intro I intend to get to soon. And have started reading the thread re-possession, will possibly comment there.

I did want to respectfully disagree on what Gollum would have done. I do not believe he would have jumped. Also, though he was not wearing the ring, he most certainly willfully ‘possessed it’. I think the first thing Gollum would do is exact revenge on Sam, in some fashion, though ultimately killing him, in the moment, time permitting. Possibly Frodo too, though that is debatable. He would then have attempted to flee. Saving his ‘precious’, even if some part of him knows he won’t escape, it is his nature to try. Only if completely cornered, would jumping possibly enter his mind, though I do not believe the Ring would let him. (Paraphrasing)”…..the Ring had consumed Gollum….he both loved and hated it….” The Ring’s own sense of self-preservation would trick Gollum into some action (fleeing futily) that would have saved it.

Now, I do believe someone stronger then the Ringbearer could force the Ringbearer over the edge.


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## Olorgando (Mar 24, 2021)

JRRT himself never committed himself one way or the other, in writing.
Here, I like to quote him from the Foreword to the Second Edition of LoTR, about applicability residing in the freedom of the reader (contrasting his disapproval of (sloppy!) allegory as being the "purposed domination of the author").

"My" Gollum would have jumped. You disagree. Different applicabilities.

Now what of "JRRT's Gollum" (he is his creation, after all)?

I have a hunch that JRRT chose the "accidental" version with purpose.
The church takes a decidedly dim view on suicide. And JRRT was certainly an orthodox member of the Catholic Church (not happy with Vatican II).
That might have pushed him away from any possible non-accidental versions.
Not that any theologian has ever needed to mull the pro and contra of a "Sauron vs. Sméagol re: One Ring" case even remotely ...


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## Alcuin (Mar 24, 2021)

Tolkien did “commit” himself to Gollum’s fate and the Ring’s. In _Letter_ 246, he comments on what would have happened had Gollum’s repentance at the entrance to Shelob’s Lair not been blighted by Sam’s suspicion:
The course of the entry into Mordor and the struggle to reach Mount Doom would have been different, and so would the ending. The interest would have shifted to Gollum, I think, and the battle that would have gone on between his repentance and his new love on one side and the Ring. Though the love would have been strengthened daily it could not have wrested the mastery from the Ring. I think that in some queer twisted and pitiable way Gollum would have tried (not maybe with conscious design) to satisfy both. Certainly at some point not long before the end he would have stolen the Ring or taken it by violence (as he does in the actual Tale). But “possession” satisfied, I think he would then have sacrificed himself for Frodo’s sake and have _voluntarily_ cast himself into the fiery abyss.​In _Return of the Shadow_ (_History of Middle-earth_ Volume 6 or _History of the Lord of the Rings_ Volume I: _HotLotR_ is a four-volume subset of _HoMe_), Christopher Tolkien points out that his father had already determined by August 1939 that Gollum would struggle with “Bingo” Baggins, the character he soon renamed “Frodo”, and fall into the Crack of Doom to destroy both himself and the Ring. From “XXII. New Uncertainties and New Predictions”, “Conversation of Bilbo and Frodo”, he cites his father’s notes:
At end 
When Bingo [written above: Frodo] at last reaches Crack and Fiery Mountain he cannot make himself throw the Ring away. …

At that moment Gollum – who had seemed to reform and had guided them by secret ways through Mordor – comes up and treacherously tries to take Ring. They wrestle and Gollum takes Ring and falls into the Crack. ​The passage “[written above: Frodo]” is Christopher Tolkien’s gloss. He continues in his own voice,
[I]t is most remarkable to find here – when there is no suggestion of the vast structure still to be built – that the corruption of the Shire, and the crucial presence of Gollum on the Fiery Mountain, were very early elements in the whole.​This is but one example of Tolkien’s early determination that the Ring’s destruction by Gollum was crucial to the story. There are subsequent passages in _HotLotR _ in which Tolkien struggles to produce a suitable climax of the scene at the Cracks of Doom: Frodo nearly falls in (similar to PJ’s depiction, where Sam has to pull him back), where Sam and Gollum wrestle and both fall in, and so forth. There was even a version in which Gollum also had a Ring, and Frodo dared not use the one he possessed. I don’t care to go through them all, particularly since they are spread throughout the four volumes, but I think what I have cited is the first one, albeit in sketched form. 

I don’t think, however, that precludes _speculation_ that Gollum _could_ have done one thing or another: far from it! I just think that it is fairly straightforward to demonstrate that it was always Tolkien’s intention that Gollum and the Ring would be destroyed together in the Fire. 

As for suicide, Tolkien explores it thoroughly in his work. In “The Choices of Master Samwise” in _Two Towers_, Sam contemplates suicide when he believes Frodo has died. Denethor’s self-immolation (and his attempt to kill Faramir alongside himself) are important elements of _Return of the King_, standing out as Denethor’s defining failure of character not because of suicide in itself, but because he surrendered himself to overweening pride. The same can be said of Saruman when he rejects Gandalf’s offer of clemency at Orthanc, while the redemption and ultimate healing of Éowyn come about from her rejection of pride in accepting the love of Faramir. In _The Children of Húrin_, Túrin commits suicide at the grave of Finduilas, whom he should have wed instead of his sister Niënor Níniel, and at the end of the _Quenta Silmarillion_, Maedhros casts himself and his Silmaril into a fiery crack in ruined Beleriand. In “The Mariner’s Wife” (_Unfinished Tales_), it is strongly implied that Erendis casts herself into the sea at Rómenna and intentionally drowns herself when she believes she has been rejected by Aldarion. _Pride_ and _despair_ are the source causes of suicide in all these instances.


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## Red Leaf (Mar 25, 2021)

One of the things that has always interested/bugged me - this is tangental, but connected - is why it took the Dwarves of Erebor a year after first being contacted by Saurons' messenger looking for news of Bilbo and the Ring to to contact Elrond, Gandalf or Bilbo and let them know that Sauron was on the warpath...


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## Olorgando (Mar 25, 2021)

Alcuin said:


> Tolkien did “commit” himself to Gollum’s fate and the Ring’s. In _Letter_ 246, he comments on what would have happened had Gollum’s repentance at the entrance to Shelob’s Lair not been blighted by Sam’s suspicion:


Thank you for pointing out letter 246 to me, Alcuin. I did have the scenario, and some of the wording - Gollum sacrificing himself for Frodo - rattling around my memory, but in the wrong pigeonhole: as an interesting comment, hypothesis in some thread here, that I found plausible. Not JRRT's own words in a letter.

I can't resist stealing a comment from the fictional character that is Leonard Nimoy's major claim to fame: "Fascinating!"

Letter 246 is a longish one, running to almost eight pages of my paperback edition of Humphrey Carpenter's book. And apparently not just a draft, but draft*s*. In which JRRT mulls several other "what if" situations at the Cracks of Doom. And from 1963 ...

I think the version he actually had published, including Sam's heart-breaking ruination of Gollum's possible repentance, beats all of the what-ifs.


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## Matthew Bailey (Mar 26, 2021)

The answer to _*ALL such Hypotheticals*_ is:

”It depends upon the needs of the Narrative.”

Others have addressed some specifics of what Tolkien had done with the early writing of the Sequel, where the formulation that the _Ring_ found by Bilbo in Gollum’s lair under the Misty Mountains (re: Hithaeglir).

Some seem to have missed that the _Watchful Peace_ ended 400 to 500 years *prior to* the events of _*The Hobbit*_, and that Tolkien did not even realize that the events in his first Novel were intimately connected to his original Mythology until he began formulating the sequel to it.

Another point that many seem to have missed:

• Sauron and the Witch-King were already back in Mordor before the White Council lead the storming of Dol Guldur, where Khamûl led the 25,000-odd defenders against the 10,000-odd assailants led by the White Council (odds are also pretty-good that this is where Legolas was, leading his father’s forces in that battle).

So by the time Bilbo could have ”revealed” that he had a _Magic Ring_, and _iff_ Gandalf had recognized that it wasn’t just a _minor study in the craft_, but a _Ring-of-Power_, and not just *any *_Ring-of-Power_, but _*THE Ring-of-Power*_, Sauron’s _Ruling-Ring, _the _One-Ring_, Gandalf would have been too late to intervene in the events at Dol Guldur and with Sauron reaching Mordor where Barad-dûr would be nearing completion.

The best Gandalf could have done in this case would have been to have Gondor and Rohan (and Lórien) block the flow of Orcs and other Allies of Sauron into Mordor. And... Of course.... Begin figuring-out what to do about the problem, as-well-as searching for everything he had to search for in _LotR_ as it was concerning the fate of the _One Ring_, and Isildur’s possession of it, and what made the writing on it appear.

He would still need these things to demonstrate to others that it was the _Ruling-Ring._

But the question of “What would have happened if...”

Well... The exact same thing would happen there that would have happened had Clement Attlee, Neville Chamberlain, and Winston Churchill had known that Adolph Hitler was going to rise-to-power in Germany in 1933, and that he would eventually put Adolph Eichmann in charge of the “Final Solution to the Jewish Question,” leading to the Shoah.

And that answer is:

• “Something different than what has been recorded, whether by Actual History or a Fictional History.”

MB


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## Olorgando (Mar 26, 2021)

Matthew Bailey said:


> The answer to _*ALL such Hypotheticals*_ is:
> ”It depends upon the needs of the Narrative.”
> ...
> Another point that many seem to have missed:
> ...


"The needs of the narrative" are the ultimate trump card, or in terms of another card game the Joker, or even Jolly Joker.
JRRT managed to make his narrative needs seem logical; PJ didn't, but that was the fault of his narrative being nutty in parts ... 😈

But as to the other two points of yours I quote, I register objections from Appendix B "The Tale of Years" for the Third Age:

2941: Saruman [_finally_] agrees to an attack on Dol Guldur, since he now wishes to prevent Sauron from searching the River. Sauron having made his plans abandons Dol Guldur [_*after* the attack_].

(I'm also keenly interested about the source of your statement of 25,000 defenders of DG against 10,000 attackers. Until the advent of (crushing) air force superiority in WW II this would have been a suicide mission; 3 to 1 numerical superiority for the attackers was considered an absolute minimum, even up to WW II.)

2951: Sauron declares himself openly and gathers power in Mordor. He *begins* the rebuilding of Barad-dûr [_ten years after having abandoned DG_].


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## Persephone (Apr 4, 2022)

pranghus said:


> ... as soon as Gandalf saw the ring that Bilbo had picked up, through a combination of intuition and memory, and ignoring his better judgment, Gandalf had realized that it was the One Ring.



I actually thought about this, too. I think everyone who knew about the ring were either dead or thought the ring was lost. Then again, did Gandalf see the ring before it was lost? I don't think he saw it when it was forged or when Isildur took it. So, that may explain why he didn't recognize it at first. 

Then again, he may have known what it did to its wearer. Isildur was invisible when he wore the Ring, so when Bilbo went invisible, that should've given Gandalf a clue. 

I agree with Saruman - he was high on weed. muddled his brain. 



pranghus said:


> My question is: how much easier would it have been at that time to destroy the Ring, or would it have even been possible? Some points I'm considering:
> 
> * Would Gandalf have known that a hobbit was the best choice for a ring bearer without the hindsight of 77 years of hobbits having the Ring?



Honestly, I don't think Bilbo would be a good choice over Frodo and Sam. I still believe that Sam was the reason why the ring was destroyed - but he wouldn't be there if Frodo wasn't there to begin with. So, they both were essential in the destruction of the ring. 



pranghus said:


> * Although he probably still would have avoided it out of safety, was there as much of a risk if someone like Gandalf or Elrond took the Ring at that time? Could they have borne it long enough without corruption to get it to Mount Doom?



No, as they are the most susceptible to its corruption because the do possess power. The more powerful you are in Middle Earth, the more you are tempted to use the One Ring.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 5, 2022)

The Istari came to Middle-earth around F.A. 1000, so Gandalf would not have seen it.


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## Persephone (Apr 5, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> The Istari came to Middle-earth around F.A. 1000, so Gandalf would not have seen it.



Forgot about that... but, yes, that seals it... he would not have been able to identify it just by seeing it. 

Also, I remember the three Elven rings had gems. Did the other rings have gems? or were they all plain like the One ring? I've forgotten these details...


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 5, 2022)

I don't believe any of the others are described. Gandalf's narrative in "The Shadow of the Past" seems to imply that the One looked like one of the lesser rings.

On thinking about the nature of both Sauron and the Ring, the thought occurs that, although the Elves were of course _aware _of the One, it's possible that the only people who ever actually _saw _it were those present when Isildur took it from Sauron's hand.


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