# sauron going to the west



## John stefan (Dec 2, 2020)

if sauron had won the war of the ring would he have turned his attention to conquering the undying lands? if so why? And Would the Valar have fought Back? if no why? if yes why?


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## Olorgando (Dec 2, 2020)

After that bit with Númenor in the Second Age? Not a snowball's chance in Angband! 🤣
Mortal armies no longer could get to the Undying Lands with the world made round, and go there by himself?
He's just a dinky Maia! His former boss, Aulë, for example, could have eliminated Sauron's fabled One Ring in a nanosecond, hardly even a brittle plastic trinket to him. To Aulë and Oromë, and never mind Tulkas, he was a week-old infant facing a super-heavyweight martial artist of any kind. For that matter, Ossë and Eonwë, both also Maiar, were very likely way beyond him in power.
No, even when he had goaded the Númenóreans into attacking Valinor in the Second Age, he never had any hope of their having success. His aim was their destruction, thus getting revenge on them. He just never expected the backlash (in this case by Eru himself) to be so cataclysmic.


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## 1stvermont (Dec 2, 2020)

Assuming he could reach the true west, I think it is the personality of tyrants such as Sauron to continue expansion and never be satisfied with what he already controls. Yet, he was more calculated than Melkor so who knows. Great question.


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## ZehnWaters (Dec 2, 2020)

John stefan said:


> if sauron had won the war of the ring would he have turned his attention to conquering the undying lands? if so why? And Would the Valar have fought Back? if no why? if yes why?


I don't believe so, no. He's smart enough to know he'd fail miserably. He only sent the Númenorean fleet West because he knew they'd be eliminated.


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## Olorgando (Dec 2, 2020)

1stvermont said:


> Assuming he could reach the true west, I think it is the personality of tyrants such as Sauron to continue expansion and never be satisfied with what he already controls. Yet, he was more calculated than Melkor so who knows. Great question.


You mention the comparison to Morgoth, and quite rightly. Morgoth could be characterized as a megalomaniac nihilist on a rampage, who may not have (sufficiently) realized he was dissipating his power, and diminishing himself, quite massively. Sauron was, certainly, calmer, and I have the impression a good deal more intelligent than Morgoth. Perhaps in part due to the fact that at least at the beginning of Arda, he was vastly less powerful than Morgoth, and so much more circumspect at scattering his native, and I've posted this before, for all Valar and Maiar, finite (if vast) powers.

As Melkor / Morgoth mistakenly assumed in the First Age, that the Valar (after that ban on the Noldor and the fencing in of Valinor) would *never* intervene in Middle-earth again, Sauron assumed the same. Of course, compared to the Hosts of the West returning with massive forces that mopped up Morgoth's ground forces (including Balrogs), and ultimately his "air force", Sauron may have sardonically smiled at five disguised (and massively hampered) Maiar dribbling in around the year 1,000 of the Third Age.

But I seriously doubt Sauron ever developed a megalomania that he could assault Valinor, he simply wasn't that stupid.
I look at it this way: when the Númenóreans under Ar-Pharazôn attacked Valinor, Sauron remained behind in Númenor.
Why?
Now in relatively modern times, we are used to the concept that the higher the military rank (and never mind politicians), the greater the distance from the actual front lines. Mostly due to age issues. But Ar-Pharazôn *did* lead the attack, as not at all unusual in (very much) earlier historical times. Why not Sauron?
First, I would propose that it is the characteristic of pretty much all tyrants to also be cowards (as even Morgoth became, even fearing to face Fingolfin single-handedly), and stay way back from any violent confrontations.
Second. if you think back to the published Sil, right at the beginning of the part "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" (this stumps me *every* time I look for the quote 😒 ), Eonwë at the end of the First Age had basically served up an arrest warrant to Sauron, to appear before Manwë for sentencing; which was still in force. Sauron wasn't going anywhere *near* more than a dozen powers could grab him by the scruff of the neck, chuck him to Námo Mandos for inescapable incarceration - and then probably join his former boss in the void. This was a thrice-damaged Sauron: Huan nearly destroying his bodily form, the annihilation of his bodily form at the destruction of Númenor, and the at least loss of control over his bodily form when he lost the One Ring (and the finger it was on).

No, I simply cannot imagine Sauron becoming so megalomaniac as to attack the Undying Lands (which he could, if at all, only have reached "in person" without any support). Tulkas would have squashed him (his bodily form) like we squash a fly. And as to his spirit, *all fourteen* of the Valar and Valier were much more powerful than he was, and you can add possibly at least a handful of Maiar. Just a thought: Yavanna; think an Ent taken to the Nth power; she would have squashed him like Treebeard did the Orc(s) pursuing Merry and Pippin in TT (admittedly only in the film).


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## 1stvermont (Dec 2, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> You mention the comparison to Morgoth, and quite rightly. Morgoth could be characterized as a megalomaniac nihilist on a rampage, who may not have (sufficiently) realized he was dissipating his power, and diminishing himself, quite massively. Sauron was, certainly, calmer, and I have the impression a good deal more intelligent than Morgoth. Perhaps in part due to the fact that at least at the beginning of Arda, he was vastly less powerful than Morgoth, and so much more circumspect at scattering his native, and I've posted this before, for all Valar and Maiar, finite (if vast) powers.
> 
> As Melkor / Morgoth mistakenly assumed in the First Age, that the Valar (after that ban on the Noldor and the fencing in of Valinor) would *never* intervene in Middle-earth again, Sauron assumed the same. Of course, compared to the Hosts of the West returning with massive forces that mopped up Morgoth's ground forces (including Balrogs), and ultimately his "air force", Sauron may have sardonically smiled at five disguised (and massively hampered) Maiar dribbling in around the year 1,000 of the Third Age.
> 
> ...



i disagree with a few statements [time does not permit a response] but overall I think you are correct. And I do think your correct in saying the tyrants have others do their dirty work while free people's leaders lead into battle.


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## ZehnWaters (Dec 2, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> Just a thought: Yavanna; think an Ent taken to the Nth power; she would have squashed him like Treebeard did the Orc(s) pursuing Merry and Pippin in TT (admittedly the film).


Even if she couldn't Aulë would have gladly crushed him with a hammer.


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## Olorgando (Dec 3, 2020)

Yavanna is one of the eight (remaining) Aratar, the High Ones of Arda, together with Varda and Nienna, and Manwë, Ulmo, Aulë, Mandos and Oromë. Note: Tulkas, who could take our Melkor even at the latter's mightiest (multiple body-slam him, in the terminology of a popular quasi-sport with massive soap-opera elements), is not counted among the Aratar. If one were to assume an order of magnitude of greater power between the least of the Valar and the mightiest of the Maiar (a reasonable assumption, I would think), that goes up to two orders of magnitude (at least, plus Richter scale) for any of the Aratar. Sauron would hardly have been more bothersome to Yavanna than dirt under the fingernails (she *was* very heavily involved in gardening ...) 😜


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## Rilien (Dec 3, 2020)

I think Sauron sent the Numenoreans to Valinor because he wanted them destroyed, and knew it would destroy them. I think he would have the same fear for himself and ultimately wouldn't be able to overcome the Valar with all their Maiar. But I'm pretty sure the Valar didn't actually do anything in that particular situation -- Eru came in and did the mop up. Nonetheless, I don't know about the Valar "squishing Sauron like a fly". I seem to remember reading somewhere Tolkien saying that by the end of the Third age Sauron actually had more concentrated power as an individual than Morgoth did...I guess because Morgoth insisted on dissipating evil everywhere and perhaps Sauron focused on concentrating power in himself.


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## Olorgando (Dec 3, 2020)

Rilien said:


> I seem to remember reading somewhere Tolkien saying that by the end of the Third age Sauron actually had more concentrated power as an individual than Morgoth did...I guess because Morgoth insisted on dissipating evil everywhere and perhaps Sauron focused on concentrating power in himself.


I certainly see this development as being caused *entirely* by Morgoth's nihilistic rage with a complete lack of self-control. A faint "oops" moment may have occurred to Morgoth when Fingolfin slashed him seven times in that single combat, and Thorondor ripped his face shortly after. This stuff never healed (properly), IIRC.
In fact Sauron had, at the end of the First Age, *also* been diminished by the thrashing Huan gave him, nearly to the point of Sauron's bodily destruction. Sauron had a big repair job to do after that, and repairs always cost, is my impression. *Morgoth's* dissipation of his native power must have been just mind-boggling (even to Valar, perhaps).


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## Goldilocks Gamgee (Dec 3, 2020)

I know this is a little off topic, but if Earendil could reach the Un-Dying Lands, why can't Sauron's army? Earendil wasn't immortal.


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## Olorgando (Dec 3, 2020)

Eärendil reached the Undying Lands during the First Age, when Arda was flat and Aman it's western extremity. "Technically", he only succeeded when Elwing had brought Lúthien and Beren's Silmaril to him, with which he (they) finally managed to pass all of those obstructing islands. Then Eärendil and Elwing were both "Half-Elven" (Elwing a bit more than half, with an addition of Maia), and Eärendil was the one "fated" to do so; like Beren was the only one (until Carcharoth with the Silmaril destroying him from inside) who got past the Girdle of Melian without express permission.

In the Third Age, the destruction of Númenor and making-round of the world was over 3,000 years in the past. Nobody but Elves in special boats, a handful of exceptions the Elves took with them, and probably former Ainur could reach the Undying Lands anymore.


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## earthfriend (Dec 3, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> Eärendil reached the Undying Lands during the First Age, when Arda was flat and Aman it's western extremity. "Technically", he only succeeded when Elwing had brought Lúthien and Beren's Silmaril to him, with which he (they) finally managed to pass all of those obstructing islands. Then Eärendil and Elwing were both "Half-Elven" (Elwing a bit more than half, with an addition of Maia), and Eärendil was the one "fated" to do so; like Beren was the only one (until Carcharoth with the Silmaril destroying him from inside) who got past the Girdle of Melian without express permission.
> 
> In the Third Age, the destruction of Númenor and making-round of the world was over 3,000 years in the past. Nobody but Elves in special boats, a handful of exceptions the Elves took with them, and probably former Ainur could reach the Undying Lands anymore.


In I think it's Return of the King, Sam is in Mordor, and the shadow Sauron putting out are starting to darken the world. There is a chink in the clouds, and through it Sam glimpses a star (apparently on purpose by the Valar) as a sign that even IF the Shadow of Sauron covered the world,'' There is a light and high beauty forever beyond it's reach'' I took this in this argument as a sign from Valinor that Sauron even if he had recovered the Ring and dominated Middle Earth, he could never have reached out to Valinor. Sauron was strictly one dimension in his ambition, even though his eventual downfall could not then have been foreseen


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## Hisoka Morrow (Dec 8, 2020)

John stefan said:


> if sauron had won the war of the ring would he have turned his attention to conquering the undying lands?


Yes. If he could conquer more lands and digest much more resources he need, such as the Dark Continent, just as much as possible. Of course it's another matter how long it takes, after all, Numenor's lesson witnessed by him isn't a joke. He must gather and mange a armed forces much stronger than Numenor Empire's Valinor's Expedition.


Olorgando said:


> ...But I seriously doubt Sauron ever developed a megalomania that he could assault Valinor, he simply wasn't that stupid.
> I look at it this way: when the Númenóreans under Ar-Pharazôn attacked Valinor, Sauron remained behind in Númenor.
> Why?...


I beg your pardon, but bunches of territory in JRRT's lore hasn't showed up, how about if Sauron unifies all these lands, digests them, and turn them into a tremendous war machine even much more powerful than Numenor?Just consider my offer.



John stefan said:


> And Would the Valar have fought Back? if no why? if yes why?


Of course, yes, and the reason?If they won't, are they still Valar?


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## Olorgando (Dec 8, 2020)

Sauron could conquer all of Middle-earth and still not reach Valinor anymore with mortal armies. Valinor is permanently out of mortal reach.
And he himself, alone as he must be, has at least 20 Valar and Maiar against him who would crush him with ease one-on-one.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Dec 8, 2020)

Hmmm........=''=....how about if he creates some artificial immortal armed forces by Dark Sorcery?


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## Olorgando (Dec 8, 2020)

Hisoka, Sauron's "dark sorcery" at its mightiest would hardly elicit a yawn from those Valinoreans.
However mighty he may appear in Middle-earth, to plenty in Valinor he is chickenshit, excuse my French.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Dec 8, 2020)

Hmmm......I see, since Melkor had his ass kicked by Tulkas, the Dark Side's Strategical goal had never mentioned conquering Valinor, it's obvious that the Dark Side had learned their places....=''=. Unless considering Fingofin's record of handicapping Melkor, Sauron wouldn't estimate he could set up such powerful armed forces all as tough as Fingofin, am I correct?


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## earthfriend (Dec 10, 2020)

In the second Age, Sauron had taken over pretty much all of the west, apart from a few beleaguered outposts. Then, up tootled Numenor (even the followers of Elendil remembered with pride the coming of the hosts of Ar-Pharazon out of the deeps). However. at the sight of this armada, Sauron hollered nuff without even putting up a fight. Then, the fleet that A.P. took to Valinor was mightier still. Had Sauron captured the world in end of Third Age, I doubt it could have compared to Numenor at it's height. Sauron wouldn't have dared. But the undying Lands had been removed from Middle Earth, after the world was re-shaped, and were no longer accessible. earendil only managed it with the aid of a Silmaril, so Sauron would have a) no chance of getting there, and b) no chance of military success against Valinor


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