# Last Alliance Leaders



## Inderjit S (Jul 27, 2005)

Which leader or general of the Last Alliance (namely Gil-Galad, Cirdan, Elrond, Durin, Glorfindel, Amdir Malgalad, Oropher, Isildur, Anarion and Elendil) do you think Sauron most feared, or had the most cause to fear?


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## Hammersmith (Jul 28, 2005)

At a guess, Cirdan and Elrond who were holders of the elven rings. Maybe Glorfindel, as he had some personal experience with him, and knew all too well what happened to dark lords who met up with righteously infuriated elflords with a tendency to ignore odds and steam through an army with the intention of carving his initials on said dark lord's face. Isildur's just a kid, and I'm also fairly sure that Sauron held men in cautious contempt, or at least a little scorn. Who are the others?


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## Aiglos (Jul 28, 2005)

That's be Gil Galad and Cirdan...


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## baragund (Jul 29, 2005)

Inder, could you give us some background on Amdir, Malgalad and Oropher? I don't see their names in the glossary of the published Silmarillion so I'm guessing they are mentioned in Tolkien's later writings in the HOME series.

Otherwise, I would think Cirdan and Glorfindel would be the most formidable opponents. Cirdan because he is the most "senior" of the group and it seems to me that the oldest of the First Born were the mightiest and that subsequent generations tended to be relatively diminished. Glorfindel because he would be the most battle hardened, being a veteran of killing balrogs and all kinds things during the fall of Gondolin, not to mentioned having one heck of a grudge against the remaining forces of evil for having been "killed" during that battle.


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## Thorondor_ (Jul 29, 2005)

I found the folowing in UT:


> Amroth was King of Lorien, after his father Amdir was slain in the Battle of Dagorlad.
> Lorien had then long years of peace and obscurity under the rule of its own king Amdir, until the Downfall of Númenor and the sudden return of Sauron to Middle-earth. Amdir obeyed the summons of Gil-galad and brought as large a force as he could gather to the Last Alliance, but he was slain in the Battle of Dagorlad and most of his company with him. Amroth, his son, became king.


However, in "Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn", Amroth is mentioned as the son of these two. Also, in UT:


> (Oropher) therefore assembled a great army of his now numerous people, and joining with the lesser army of Malgalad of Lorien he led the host of the Silvan Elves to battle
> Malgalad of Lorien occurs nowhere else, and is not said here to be the father of Amroth. On the other hand, Amdir father of Amroth is twice said to have been slain in the Battle of Dagorlad, and it seems therefore that Malgalad can be simply equated with Amdir.


About Oropher:


> In the Second Age their king, Oropher (the father of Thranduil, father of Legolas), had withdraw northward beyond the Gladden Fields.
> Orofer was slain in the first assault upon Mordor, rushing forward at the head of his most doughty warriors before Gil-galad had given the signal for the advance.
> Oropher was of Sindarin origin, and no doubt Thranduil his son was following the example of King Thingol long before, in Doriath; though his halls were not to be compared with Menegroth. He had not the arts nor wealth nor the aid of the dwarves; Oropher had come among them with only a handful of Sindar.
> Long before the war of the alliance, Oropher, king of the silvan elves east of Anduin, being disturbed by rumours of the rising power of Sauron, had left their ancient dwellings about Amon Lanc, across the river from their kin in Lorien. Three times he had moved northwards, and at the end of the second age he dwelt in the western glens of the Emyn Duir, and his numerous people lived and roamed in the woods and vales westward as far as Anduin, north of the ancient Dwarf-Road . He had joined the Alliance, but was slain in the assault upon the Gates of Mordor


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## Haldatyaro (Jul 29, 2005)

Sauron had particular hatred for the Faithful of Númenóre, so I should think that he would fear Elendil. Perhaps him and Gil-Galad equall, knowing the weapons they wielded:



> [...]for the Spear of Gil-galad and the Sword of Elendil, Aiglos and Narsil, none could withstand.


Also, remember that in the Second Age, Sauron nearly defeated Gil-Galad, whose kingdom was saved by the intervention of Tar-Minastir.

In light of that -- I would say *Elendil*.


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## Círdan (Jul 29, 2005)

i'd say Círdan (me) because he is the oldest and has more knowledge and wisdon then anybody else. He hold a ring of power and he survived all the uncounted battles till then, Sauron must had fear him.


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## baragund (Aug 1, 2005)

Thanks for the background Thorondor!  

I'll stick with Cirdan and Glorfindel. I can see Haldatyaro's point about Aiglos and Narsil, but Cirdan had one of the three Elvish Rings and Glorfindel could take out a Balrog.


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## Inderjit S (Aug 1, 2005)

On the Elvish rings-Sauron didn't know for sure-but he guessed they had given to Gil-Galad and Galadriel, yet the Elvish rings wouldn't have helped them in battle, except perhaps for Cirdan's.

I think he would have feared Cirdan as Cirdan was problably the oldest living being in Middle-Earth (it is probable that he was born at Cuivenien) and had been through many battles against Morgoth, and was wiser than any other being in Middle-Earth. Elendil would have been another one to fear, and one for whom Sauron would have had a special hatred because he alone opposed him in the councils at Numenor, and he would have hated Isildur too. I also think that Anarion was a better general than Isildur-he did hold out against Sauron for some years remember. I don't know how much respect he would have had for Gil-Galad, though Gil-Galad would have earned his hatred by refusing the speak to him when he was trying to seduce the Elves, he may have held him in contempt because he only sent his general, Elrond to attack Sauron and he had beseiged him for many years, but then again Sauron may have seen the wisdom in sending subordinates to battle, it was a policy which he later adopted. Glorfindel was an amazingly powerful Elda, who played a leading role in the War in Eriador and would have earned Sauron's hatred. I guess he would have held Oropher and Amdir in contempt, or with less respect than he held the others.


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## Greenwood (Aug 2, 2005)

The three elven rings could be of no use to the Last Alliance. In fact, they could harm the Alliance grievously. There are two reasons for this: 1) The three elven rings were not made to wield power or convey mastery over anyone. They were made by the elves to preserve things. 2) No matter what the powers of the three elven rings, they could not be used by the Last Alliance as long as Sauron wielded the One Ring. Sauron's very reason for forging the One Ring was to give him power and domination over all the rings. When Sauron forged the One Ring, Celebrimbor became aware of him and his plan and the elves removed their three rings. If they had worn and tried to use their rings during the war of the Last Alliance, Sauron would have been instantly aware of them and all their plans. The three elven rings could not be used as long as Sauron had the One!


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## Ingwë (Aug 8, 2005)

I don't think that there is anyone who can scare Sauron the Dark lord of Mordor. The High kings of the Noldor who born in Valinor were slain, only High King Gil-galad was there but he was born in the Middle earth, he haven't seen the Two Trees. Cirdan was born near Cuivienen so he was very powerful but he hid his people. Elrond was heir of Beren Barahir and Lúthien so there is a chance Sauron to be scared of Elrond. I don't know how about the other leaders. I think that Sauron feared only the High King Gil-Galad.


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## Telëlambe (Aug 22, 2005)

I think sauron was very scared, and he had reason to be, because who won? 
Sauron or any dark force will alwase know fear, as i believe it to be one of the requisites of an evil nature. So anyone who could pose a direct physical threat to him (Gil-Gilad or Elendil) or anyone who could enspire the free peoples against him. (Cirdan) 

I think those who live in Evil will, be definition, alwase live in fear. Especially of the representatives of the true west.


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## Grond (Aug 22, 2005)

All you Cirdan lovers... please quote me something... anything that states he was a great leader or fighter. I recall nothing and nowhere where any such statements are made. As cited earlier, Gil-galad would have been vanquished but for the fleet of Numenor. Sauron historically never feared any Elves that I know of. He certainly didn't fear Gil-galad, Cirdan, Elrond, nor Celebrimbor (remember that Sauron used Celebrimbor's body as a battle standard when he attacked Gil-galad). I'm not sure that Sauron feared anyone, but if he did, surely it would have been the men of Numenor which would have included Elendil and sons.


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## Ingwë (Aug 25, 2005)

Grond said:


> I'm not sure that Sauron feared anyone, but if he did, surely it would have been the men of Numenor which would have included Elendil and sons.


Well, at that time Sauron still possessed the One Ring. So he had great power and surely he thought that he can destroy his enemies. The Men of Númenor... they imprisoned him but after a while he became councellor... As far as I remember the Númenoreans send aid to Gil-Galad. The sons of Elendil were friends to the Elves to he hate them and perhaps he feared them... But I think the exact word is 'hate'. 

_*But did Sauron knew that the Elvish Rings weren't made for power? They were made with specific purpose. Did he know that?*_


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## Greenwood (Aug 25, 2005)

Ingwë said:


> _*But did Sauron knew that the Elvish Rings weren't made for power? They were made with specific purpose. Did he know that?*_


The questions are irrelevant. The Three Rings were subject to the One. If the elves had used them Sauron would have been instantly aware of them and all that they did. If the elves used the Three they would come under Sauron's domination as long as he had the One. That is all Sauron needed to know.


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## Inderjit S (Aug 25, 2005)

I am pretty sure that Cirdan would have been involved in more major battles than any other Elf or Man. He was also chosen by the Valar to remain in Middle-Earth, and was said to be the wisest Elf left in the T.A. 

Also if Sauron didn't fear the Elves then why on earth did he go to so much bother creating the One Ring?


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## Grond (Sep 5, 2005)

Inderjit S said:


> I am pretty sure that Cirdan would have been involved in more major battles than any other Elf or Man. He was also chosen by the Valar to remain in Middle-Earth, and was said to be the wisest Elf left in the T.A.
> 
> Also if Sauron didn't fear the Elves then why on earth did he go to so much bother creating the One Ring?


Sauron didn't fear the Elves. He created the One Ring to rule the Elves not because he feared them. His intention in creating the Ruling Ring was to subjugate all the other great Elves who wore one of the Rings (great or lesser). He assumed (correctly) that the Greater Rings would be worn by the Leaders of the Elves and he thought when he put the Ruling Ring on, they would all be immediately subjugated to him. His mistake was in misunderstanding the Elves. Rather than serve him, they would rather not have the use of the Rings. 

Next came the great war and Sauron's recovery of all the Rings save for the Three. He redistrubuted them but still was only able to subjugate Man... and not all of them. Go figure. This was a very weak aspect of Tolkien's story to me. To think that Sauron could make such a blunderous error and misjudgement. Sauron thought he was making a Ruling Ring but all he was doing was making a tool for his own undoing.

Cheers,

grond


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## Gothmog (Sep 7, 2005)

Grond said:


> This was a very weak aspect of Tolkien's story to me. To think that Sauron could make such a blunderous error and misjudgement. Sauron thought he was making a Ruling Ring but all he was doing was making a tool for his own undoing.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> grond


I don't see this as a weak aspect of Tolkien's story but as a demontration of the inherent risks and foolishness of trying to control people by force. The more you try to control others the more you open yourself to defeat. Sauron, being a powerful Maia, thought there were none great enough to challenge him and that he knew what was best for the peoples of Arda. Thinking this he looked only to gain control and blinded himself to everything else.


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## Grond (Sep 7, 2005)

Gothmog said:


> I don't see this as a weak aspect of Tolkien's story but as a demontration of the inherent risks and foolishness of trying to control people by force. The more you try to control others the more you open yourself to defeat. Sauron, being a powerful Maia, thought there were none great enough to challenge him and that he knew what was best for the peoples of Arda. Thinking this he looked only to gain control and blinded himself to everything else.


You would think he would have learned a little of the lesson the Valar taught his Master. His pride almost rivaled Feanor's! 

(It's good to see you old friend!)


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## Gothmog (Sep 8, 2005)

Grond said:


> You would think he would have learned a little of the lesson the Valar taught his Master. His pride almost rivaled Feanor's!
> 
> (It's good to see you old friend!)


I totally agree. But is shows that wisdom and knowledge are not the same 

(It's good to see you too my friend  Do you use MSN at all now?  )


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## Inderjit S (Sep 8, 2005)

> You would think he would have learned a little of the lesson the Valar taught his Master. His pride almost rivaled Feanor's!



I think the best way in which to sum up this is the following quote by Tolkien. (About the Numenoreans and their worship of Morgoth, even though they had the tales of how their first downfall came when they began to worship him soon after they awoke.)

"If fish had fish lore then I doubt the bussiness of anglers would be hindered much." 

Sauron indeed was 'wiser' and in some ways 'better' than Melkor, in that he didn't desire annilhiation but control, at first for "the good" of the people he desired to "rule", but his plans soon went awry and he decided to use force for the good of others-such an act will always lead to evil.


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