# Entwives



## Ancalagon (Sep 30, 2001)

*The Entwife Mystery....*

Where in truth do you think the Entwives disappeared to? Why was it really neccesary for them depart at all? Where do you think fate eventually drove them and to what ends?


*Previously 'Whatever Happened To The Entwives', now merged with 'Ents'*


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## Greymantle (Sep 30, 2001)

They were slaughtered by Sauron, as explicitly stated in the Silmarillion. I do not believe they were taken to Valinor.


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## Gothmog (Sep 30, 2001)

Graymantle,

Could you please tell me where in the Silmrillion it expicitly states that the Entwives were slaughtered by Sauron?


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## Ancalagon (Sep 30, 2001)

Tell me too, I would never have posted if I knew it was severe.


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## Dengen-Goroth (Sep 30, 2001)

Yes, do tell greymantle. I beleive some were in Valinor to begin with, not shipped over on boats made of wood. I doubt they would have ever gone on if they were. Though most likely almost all of them were slaughtered by Sauron.


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## Greymantle (Sep 30, 2001)

Reading over my response-- it sounds so nasty! I didn't mean to be rude.
I'll look for that. The Sil has a pretty crappy index, so I'll do some Tolkien-combing tonight, one of my favorite activites....


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## Lantarion (Oct 1, 2001)

I think Aragorn does say that they were, er, killed off by Sauron, in the chapter 'The Great River', when the Company passes the Brown Lands. I don't know about the Sil, I haven't read that in a while..


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## Greymantle (Oct 1, 2001)

Well...I'm still fairly sure I read that, but I haven't had a chance to do a good search. I found this at the Grey Havens, it's from _Letters_:

"What happened to them is not resolved in this book. ... I think that in fact the Entwives had disappeared for good, being destroyed with their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance (Second Age 3429-3441) when Sauron pursued a scorched earth policy and burned their land against the advance of the Allies down the Anduin. They survived only in the 'agriculture' transmitted to Men (and Hobbits). Some, of course, may have fled east, or even have become enslaved: tyrants even in such tales must have an economic and agricultural background to their soldiers and metal-workers. If any survived so, they would indeed be far estranged from the Ents, and any rapprochement would be difficult - unless experience of industrialised and militarised agriculture had made them a little more anarchic. I hope so. I don't know."
[The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, 179 (#144)] 

This was actually from before LotR was published, so perhaps Tolkien figured out a more specific answer later, or maybe what I read in the Sil was Chistopher taking the story a little farther. I don't know, but I'll keep looking for that passage from the Silmarillion. In the meanwhileI think I'll take back all that "explicitly stated" crap.


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## Dengen-Goroth (Oct 1, 2001)

Great job greymantle. i am quite sure that they all would have been killed of. but if they fled east...not a very good move. Yet I still stnad by my opinion that some existed in Valinor.


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## Gothmog (Oct 1, 2001)

Graymantle, Thank you for the reply. You may be correct in saying that the Entwives had been destroyed, but I cannot remember anything in the Silmarillion or Lord of the Rings that definately stated this.


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## Legolam (Dec 31, 2001)

*Where did the Entwives go?*

Ever since I read tLOTR when I was 8 (11 years ago), one question has been bothering me:

Where did the Entwives go?

When I first read it, I thought they were somewhere near the Shire, because I remember a hobbit (poss. Hamfast, I'm not sure) saying he'd seen a walking tree near there.

Can any learned person enlighten me?!


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## Lantarion (Dec 31, 2001)

The Entwives lived with the Ents for many ages, but then they became more interested in planting their own gardens than living in the forests, so they packed up and left. They settled in what became the Brown Lands, and built a great and beautiful garden there. But then when Sauron came to power he torched the gardens and I think he killed all of the Entwives. *sniff*  Bastard...
It was Sam Gamgee who saw what might have been an Ent in the Shire, and IMHO it was either a Huorn or an Ent(ling).


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## Snaga (Dec 31, 2001)

Oooh excellent I can nitpick on a point of detail!!! Great...

It wasn't Sam who saw the walking tree, it was a friend or a cousin or something, and he was talking about it in the pub - can't remember the name but he worked for Mr Boffin!

An elm tree if memory serves

...That feels good!!!!!


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## Lantarion (Dec 31, 2001)

*glares malevolently at VoK, and fits an arrow to his bowstring*


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## Thariel (Jan 2, 2002)

*Ents*

I was wondering what happened to the Entwives after they left the Brown Lands due to Sauron destroying it. Below was taken from the Arda Encyclopedia from the net:



> It should be said that the fate of the Entwives was never resolved with certainty, but the signs are not hopeful. Tolkien's clearest statement on the matter is to be found in his Letters: 'I think that in fact the Entwives had disappeared for good, being destroyed with their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance (Second Age 3429 - 3441)...' (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien No 144, dated 1954). This is less definite than it might appear, because he goes on to suggest that some might have fled into the east, and finally simply states of their fate, 'I don't know.'



I have a feeling that if, like Tolkien suggested, some of the Entwives survived Sauron's desecration of their lands they were taken by him and changed into Trolls. It would make sense wouldn't it? Orcs were made from Elves, and I read somewhere that Trolls were suspected to of been made from Ents in the same torturous fashion. Mayhap the Trolls are the Entwives. Anyone have any ideas or opinions?


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## Eonwe (Jan 2, 2002)

what about the beginning of the FOTR where Sam talks about seeing a tree moving in the forests near the Shire, and later Treebeard says Entwives would like the Shire? I always thought that maybe it meant at least one of the Entwives went to live in the Shire.


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## Lantarion (Jan 2, 2002)

This is being discussed at another thread, check it out.
Welcome, Thariel!


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## Eonwe (Jan 2, 2002)

where? At least give us a link! You spect me to search for it or something?


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## Grond (Jan 2, 2002)

We will never know as the author never definatively states what became of them.


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## Mithrandir_II (Jan 2, 2002)

In _Letters _ doesn't tolkien mention that the Entwives were probably killed off in the Second Age when Sauron mounted his first successful attack on Middle-earth and burned most of the lands west of Misty Mountains? This would be before Gondor and Arnor were founded and before The Last Alliance. 

I seem to remember reading that once upon a time.


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## Grond (Jan 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Grond _
> *We will never know as the author never definatively states what became of them. *


Mithrandir_II, see post above with focus on *definatively*.


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## Eonwe (Jan 2, 2002)

Grond can't you speculate? I mean of course it is stated elsewhere case closed that there is no answer...

But don't you think it is odd Sam mentions this in FOTR (it drives me crazy every time I read it)?


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## Evenstar (Jan 2, 2002)

Well, realistically I think that they were killed off by Sauron. It seems that that is the most plausible explanation. However, that is so grim that I'm glad Tolkien left hope for the Entwives and Ents in the Shire.


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## Grond (Jan 2, 2002)

Okay.. I'll speculate. As for the Shire...it could have been a troll (made in mockery of Ents), it could have been one of the trees from the Old Forest (remember that the Old Forest is the most closely associated with Fanghorn as explained, I think by Treebeard), it could be an Ent (unlikely) or it could be an Ent-wife.

The Ent-wives could have been swept away in Sauron's war and be no more (really sad and I don't believe it) or moved far east and be living in some secluded forest there waiting to be rediscovered by the Ents (which I really hope). 

Despite the author's own words that they were likely destroyed by Sauron's army in the Second Age, I prefer to believe that they are still alive. Mainly, because they are creatures of Yavanna and I can't imagine her allowing them to be butchered. I'm sure that she would have nagged enough to her husband Aule, that he would have nagged to Orome and Tulkas and they would have hauled all of the Ent-wives to safety in the East.

Now.... how's that for speculation people!!!


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## Eonwe (Jan 2, 2002)

Thank you. Interesting. I agree with your assessment. So maybe it was a Huorn?

Sometimes I feel like I am discussing the book with Mr. Spock


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## Grond (Jan 2, 2002)

You're probably right Eonwe. My children and wife regularly accuse me of studying the works too much and not enjoying them enough (if you getn my drift). I tend to look at all the issues from black and white instead of shades of gray. Sorry, I'll try to be more sensitive in the future.


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## Eonwe (Jan 3, 2002)

no need to apologize, hey I'm a big bad Maia!

Being compared to Mr. Spock isn't so bad


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## Beleg Strongbow (Jan 23, 2002)

*Where do you think the entwives could be?*

High i was just wondering where you think the entwives could be and whether you thought Sauron killed them. I reckon that the wives might be near the Shire. I remember the conversation Sam had in the Shire in the Green dragon (i think) that he says that massive giants as tall as trees were there. What do ya'l think?


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## lilhobo (Jan 23, 2002)

its actually Tom Bombadil, cross dresser extraordinaire 

i mean come on yellow boots????


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## Snaga (Jan 23, 2002)

To me the most likely answer is that, actually, they're all dead sadly. But they used to live south of Mirkwood, in what's now the Brown Lands. So perhaps they went further East after their gardens were destroyed... You have to cling to some hope... Boo hoo hoo sniff sniff **wipes tear**

I think the elm striding across the north downs is a red herring. The elves and the dunedain have been passing through Eriador for thousands of years and would have spotted them by now I think.


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## Mad Adski (Jan 23, 2002)

Most of them were killed, but you never know, a couple might have got away and gone into the far east of Middle Earth, or maybe the far South.


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## Kit Baggins (Jan 23, 2002)

I think the thing about the Entwives is really sad  !

.:sniffles:.

~Kit


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## DGoeij (Jan 23, 2002)

I guess the Rangers would have known if the Entwives would have been hidng near the Shire. 
But aside from that, I do not have a clue. Sad story, the Amazon forests could do with a bunch of Ents nowadays.


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## Bucky (Jan 23, 2002)

There were very few Rangers, so it's possible they missed them.
Aragorn seems to have never come across the 3 Trolls who were turned to stone.
He also states that the Ettenmoors is land largely unknown to him & it's not that far from Rivendell.

I always thought of that bit in the beginning of FOTR about a tree-man being sighted in the North Moors too.

But, as the 4th Age is the time of the dominion of Man, all other 'races' are fading away, so likely they're dead. 
There's also alot of ME South of Umbar & east of Rhun. Anybody know where there's a map of it?


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## Lantarion (Jan 23, 2002)

I think they were mostly slain with their gardens, but some may still be around. To back this up:


> Sometime in the First or Second Age the male and female Ents became estranged; the Entwives crossed Anduin and tended their favorite plants--small trees, grasses, fruit trees, flowers, and vegetables--in what was later called the Brown Lands, while the male Ents tended their larger trees, especially in the great forest that stretched from the Old Forest to Fangorn. The Entwives were greatly honored by Men, to whom they taught the skills of agriculture, *but sometime before the end of the Second Age their gardens were destroyed and they vanished.*


I think Sauron destroyed the gardens, and killed all the Entwives he could find, but I also think he didn't find them all. At least I hope so. *sniff*


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## BelDain (Jan 24, 2002)

Obviously the entwives long ago became the Periannath.
That's why Merry and Pippin got along with the Ents so well.


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## Beleg (Jan 29, 2002)

I think they would be in a hole in the ground. Why, because Beleg Strongbow stole my name. _*Consider yourself warned Beleg, any more insults like that and you will be flagged for removal by the Webmaster* Ancalagon_


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## Lantarion (Jan 29, 2002)

Now that's hardly appropriate, Beleg! Try a less insulting way of expressing your idiotic opinions, and maybe some poor soul will actually listen to them. Good day!


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## starlight (Jan 31, 2002)

Did the entwives fall beneath the wave with the rest of Beleriand?


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## My_Precious (Feb 6, 2002)

Unfortunatelly they were killed by Sauron during the last alliance... Tolkien himself wrote it, he said that even though Fangorn was old and wize, he was wrong about them being alive...


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## grishnak (Feb 7, 2002)

*location of the entwives*

I think that the entwives were not killed by eather Sauruman or Sauron, but are living in the old forest and are under the care of Tom Bombadill. Somewhat aggreeing to the quote that Beleg mentioned about Sam saying something about the massive giants near there.


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## Grond (Feb 7, 2002)

Thanks to MithrandirII who posted this quote on another thread on the same subject.


> _originally posted by MithrandirII on another thread_
> *"I think in fact the Entwives had disappeared for good, being destroyed with their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance (Second Age 3429-3441) when Sauron pursued a scorched earth policy and burned their land against the advance of the Allies down the Anduin."
> 
> Letters of JRR Tolkien #144
> ...


* 

These are the author's thoughts on what happened and he ought to know the mostest.*


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## Beleg Strongbow (Feb 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Grond _
> *Thanks to MithrandirII who posted this quote on another thread on the same subject.
> 
> These are the author's thoughts on what happened and he ought to know the mostest. *






Grond that is the first i have heard of that thanks!


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## QueenBeruthiel (Apr 29, 2002)

*Where are the Entwives?*

A question for other LOTR fans-
Have the Entwives all ceased to exist, and if not where in ME are they?
I was re-reading FOTR the other day and thought about what Sam had said to Sandyman in the inn right at the beginning, that his cousin Hal had seen a tree walking across the shire "as big as an elm...walking mind you..and there aint no elm on the north moors" (or something like that). So I was thinking could this be one of the elusive Entwives?


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## Niniel (Apr 29, 2002)

I wsa thinking that maybe there live Entwives in the Old Forest, beacse the Old Forest and Fangorn are the only remainders of the old forest that covered a great part of Middle-Earth. But then again the trees in the Old Forest are evil ands the Ents are not.


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## Goldberry (Apr 29, 2002)

*Re: Where are the Entwives?*



> _Originally posted by QueenBeruthiel _
> *A question for other LOTR fans-
> Have the Entwives all ceased to exist, and if not where in ME are they?
> I was re-reading FOTR the other day and thought about what Sam had said to Sandyman in the inn right at the beginning, that his cousin Hal had seen a tree walking across the shire "as big as an elm...walking mind you..and there aint no elm on the north moors" (or something like that). So I was thinking could this be one of the elusive Entwives? *



I missed that! That is a very good point. If the Entwives are near or in the Shire, maybe that is why it is so pretty.


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## Lantarion (Apr 29, 2002)

All of the Entwives were killed by Sauron some time in the end of the Second Age, as he destroyed their gardens (now the Brown Lands). But I think that some were not killed straight away, and that they fled to faraway forest. That might be the explanation for the 'strangeness' in the Old Forest: the Entwives fled there but turned 'tree-like' because of lack of interaction with other Ents. They basically turned into angry Huorns. IMHO, mind you.
I think the hobbling tree Sam's cousin saw was a Huorn, not an Entwife.


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## Dûndorer (Apr 30, 2002)

i dont get, it he killed all the ent wives. but didnt kill any ents.


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## Wonko The Sane (May 6, 2002)

Whatever happened to those entwife things?


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## Dûndorer (May 7, 2002)

it slips my mind. didnt someone start beating them so they ran away? or there gardens couldnt grow or somethin?


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## wonko (May 7, 2002)

hahaha, i dont think anyone could beat an entwife... didnt they grow apart from the ents because they wanted to have control over the earth they cultivated (i.e. making gardens look pretty) and the ents just wanted to let things grow and kind of watch over them in a passive sort of way... whatever happened to them i think their story is possibly one of the most tragic in LOTR.


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## Lantarion (May 8, 2002)

*Here we go again..*

As has been stated in quadrillions of threads (which I cannot be bothered to dig up), (supposedly all) the Entiwives were killed and their gardens destroyed by Sauron in the end of the Second Age or so. But it has been argued in one of the quadrillion threads that the 'walking elm' might have been an Entwife: I personally think that the walking elm was a Huorn, and that the remaining Entwives fled to the Old Forest and grew bitter and half-'evil' in their loneliness.


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## wonko (May 8, 2002)

seriously pontifex? i don't remember hearing about that but i'll take your word for it... that's sucky, it makes the ents story so much sadder... poo


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## Gil-Galad (May 9, 2002)

Again and again Pontifex is right.What else can be wrtitten?!Nothing...


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## Dûndorer (May 9, 2002)

so they were beatin and some of them ran away right?


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## Ithrynluin (Jun 2, 2002)

As I said in another thread, I believe that the Entwives(at least some of them) are still alive in the woods around Shire and Bree and thus there is a glimmer of hope for the race of Ents - and maybe little Ent-children roamed the forests after the end of the Third Age.

Now,isn't this a much happier explanation?


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## Gary Gamgee (Jun 17, 2002)

*Conversation in The Green Dragon Inn?*

Remember the conversation the Sam had with Ted Sandyman in the Green Dragon? I was wondering about these tree men Sam was talking about...



> 'but what about these Tree-men, these giants, as you might call them? They do say that one bigger than a tree was seen up away beyond the North Moors not long back'



Who are these Tree-men? He went on...



> "But this one was as big as an elm tree, and walking-walking seven yards to an inch'



At first I thought they where rangers but no ranger is tall enough to walk seven yards in one stride. These Tree-men have to be Ents, surely. Tolkien was fond of hinting at things that would come later. But I thought the Ents haven't left Fangorn for a very long time, at that to Ents would be long indeed. Not the 20 years or so it took for Merry and Pip to reach Fangorn. Perhaps these Tree-men where not Tree-men but Tree-women, are these the long lost Entwives?

I wonder...


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## Ithrynluin (Jun 17, 2002)

Yes,I believe these "tree-men" were indeed the Entwives,who have been long sundered from the Ents.
Do you remember Treebeard's song? It was kind of sad and tragic, but I think it ends quite optimistically,with Ents and Entwives being reunited again.
YAY!!!


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## BluestEye (Jun 18, 2002)

*Entwives in the Shire*

"'You never see any, hm, any Ents round there do you?' he [Treabeard]asked. 'Well, not Ents, "Entwives" I should really say.'
'"Entwives"?' said Pippin. 'Are they like you at all?'
'Yes, hm, well no: I do not really know now,' said Treebeard thoughtfully. 'But they would like your country, so I just wondered.'"

_"The Two Towers", Chapter 4: Treabead_ 

Treabeard, after he hears from the two Hobbits about the Shire is quite fond of it, and thinks maybe the Entwives went there because it seems a probable country for Ents... so it _could_ be that what Sam talked about was truly an Enltwife.
But notice that Tolkien never wrote about the founding of the Entwives. He left it as a sad story. We ever know if the Ents found their Entwives and where these Entwives realy are (or _were_ is a mystery that will never be solved...

Bluest Eye


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## pohuist (Jun 18, 2002)

All Entviwes were destroyed when Sauron plundered their gardens.


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## Elu Thingol (Jun 18, 2002)

Do you have a quote to back that up Pohuist?


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## Tyaronumen (Jun 18, 2002)

Here is an excerpt from the Encyclopaedia of Arda as regards this matter (under the 'Entwives' entry):



> Tolkien's clearest statement on the matter is to be found in his Letters: 'I think that in fact the Entwives had disappeared for good, being destroyed with their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance (Second Age 3429 - 3441)...' (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien No 144, dated 1954). This is less definite than it might appear, because he goes on to suggest that some might have fled into the east, and finally simply states of their fate, 'I don't know.'



Encyclopaedia of Arda


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## Tyaronumen (Jun 18, 2002)

IMHO, it is always possible that ol' Samwise was simply mis-informed. Many an old wives tale was told in Earth's middle-ages about giants, dragons, etc... I'm sure that the teller even believed them in many instances.


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## Gary Gamgee (Jun 18, 2002)

yes it is possible that sam was misinfromed, I agree and there are many other strange creatures in ME, take Boern for example. But I still like the idea that these creatures where the Entwives, it seems strange that he would call them Tree-men and not relate them to Ents. But as his letters state he said he didn't know the fate of the Entwives or perhaps he did not want to point out where they are in the book, possibly maybe. I think, and hope, they are the Entwives.


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## Tyaronumen (Jun 18, 2002)

Yes, I would agree that the Entwives are a nice (as well as "clean") explanation for the sightings up North.

Still, it does seem strange that the Entwives -- who apparently had massive gardens in what became the Brown Lands -- would have been so secretive as to remain mythology and legend, even some 1400 years after the Marcho and Blanco crossed the Brandywine. 

Perhaps they learned their lesson from the tragedy at the end of the 2nd Age and took greater pains to conceal their gardens . . . but it does beg an answer to the question of "how"...


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## pohuist (Jun 18, 2002)

Thank you Tyaronumen. That was the statement I was referring too. While its not conclusive, there is no evidence insupport that any of the Entviwes are still alive, even if some managed to flee. (Except for sightings, but who can prove it not just the old wife tale).


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## aragil (Jun 18, 2002)

... or an old Ent-wife tale, as it were.

I was just reading letter 144 the other day, and from the context I thought that the reader might have been referring to this exact incident. Of course, the book Letters only contains Tolkien's responses, so it's difficult to be sure what the original letters to Tolkien said.

But, one thing to keep in mind here- Tolkien wrote the early stages of the book years before the later chapters crystallized. I can't be sure, but I think that the conversation in the Green Dragon was one of the much earlier writings. At that point Tolkien was writing a story much more similar to the Hobbit, which included giants playing soccer in the mountains, I believe. If this is the case (I must consult HoME to be sure), then Tolkien penned that line long before he had any clear ideas on Ents, let alone Entwives. Remember, he originally had Treebeard as a giant who kept Gandalf hostage, and until after LotR was written there was nothing in the Silmarillion about the Ents.


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## Shadowfax (Jun 19, 2002)

I always thought of the entwives as dead and gone, as if Tolkien put them in there to show what happens when you bury yourself in your work and don't pay attention to your loved ones. I think that what Sam was talking about would be an Ent searching for an Entwife.


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## BluestEye (Jun 19, 2002)

Gary Gamgee, Sam called this creature a Tree-Man because he didn't know what an Ent was back then...

Bluest Eye


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## LotR_Girl (Jun 19, 2002)

And who wouldn't call em creatures when don't know who they are? *LMAO!*


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## Lantarion (Jun 19, 2002)

Har har. 
But if Tolkien said he doesn't know what happened to the Entwives, maybe the walking trees really were Entwives: the only ones to survive Sauron, perhaps. 
I've always thought that the Old Forest is so unfriendly because the wounded and angry Entwives fled away from the destruction that was their gardens, and sought sanctuary in the dense, wide forest (it was in those days). But living on your own for over two thousand years can get anone down , and even Fangorn said that some of his oldest friends had already become 'tree-like'. So perhaps this is what happened to the Entwives.
But in that case they probably couldn't walk very far, if at all. Maybe the walking elm was an escaped Huorn, that had snuch away from under his sheperd's nose?  It is possible, though..


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## pohuist (Jun 19, 2002)

If I remember the letter correctly some of the Entwives may possibly fled to the EAST (that is opposite the direction the Shire is from the Brown lands). But then again, rumours spread far and wide. I am inclined to think that Aragil's notion is correct that this is an earlier version that probably should have been updated as the story on Treebard changed.


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## Tyaronumen (Jun 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Pontifex _
> *Har har.
> But if Tolkien said he doesn't know what happened to the Entwives, maybe the walking trees really were Entwives: the only ones to survive Sauron, perhaps.
> I've always thought that the Old Forest is so unfriendly because the wounded and angry Entwives fled away from the destruction that was their gardens, and sought sanctuary in the dense, wide forest (it was in those days). But living on your own for over two thousand years can get anone down , and even Fangorn said that some of his oldest friends had already become 'tree-like'. So perhaps this is what happened to the Entwives.
> But in that case they probably couldn't walk very far, if at all. Maybe the walking elm was an escaped Huorn, that had snuch away from under his sheperd's nose?  It is possible, though.. *



This would probably require a fundamental change in the character of the Ent-wives -- to go from cultivators of gardens to angry refugees in the Old Forest? 

It seems strange that the Ent-Wives would have fled to the Old Forest, instead of Fangorn -- if they were going to flee to a forest at all, which is not at all a given, based on the fact that they preferred their cultivated gardens to the wilds of the forest.


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## Tyaronumen (Jun 19, 2002)

Keep in mind too that Treebeard says the Ents used to go looking for the Ent-wives... maybe it *was* a rogue Ent in the Shire having a look around for his ol' lady and her friends. 

But also it's important to keep in mind that it's not likely that the Ent-wives would have hidden from Ents, and I can see no reason that Ents would not have travelled the environs of Arnor at one point or another in the 3rd age (I would consider it more likely that any such explorations would have taken place following the fall of Arthedain and Angmar)...


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## FINGOLFIN (Jul 11, 2002)

*The Entwives in the Old Forest*

It seems clear from the descriptions of the hobbits travelling through the Old Forest that more than one or two "rogue" trees were involved in corrupting the path of visitors. If "all paths" seemed to lead to the Withywindle Valley, then perhaps that was for the purpose of concealing other portions of the forest (Gardens perhaps). And what is to be made of Old "Man" Willow? Ent, Hourn, an entity all to himself? It seems to me a plausible theory that the Ent-wives did inhabit the Old Forest and the trees were Hourns "awakened" by the Ent-wives for purposes of gaurding the abode of the Ent-wives. If I recall correctly the High Hedge was "attacked" by trees...this has to be some version of Ent or Hourn at work.

As for the "Tree-man" referred to by the hobbits. I always liked to think that was actually Treebeard himself. He does mention that he used to go about the lands of Middle Earth searching for the Ent-wives.


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## Aslan (Jul 31, 2002)

*Where are the Ent-wives?*

Does anyone have any theories on the location of these woodsy ladies? I kind of lean on the idea that good-old Tom Bombadil was looking after them. Oh well, just my never-so-humble opinion.  I know those Ents sure would like to know.


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## Theoden (Aug 1, 2002)

I don't know why or where, but I have always had the idea that they walked into the sea and that the ents would be reunited with them at the end of the age. 

I love your screen name!!! Aslan was my childhood hero and I still love CS Lewis' writing almost above anyone elses.  Welcome to the forum!

-me


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## Elu Thingol (Aug 1, 2002)

In one of his letters Tolkien states



> 'I think that in fact the Entwives had
> disappeared for good, being destroyed with their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance (Second Age 3429 - 3441)...'(The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien No 144, dated 1954).



But he also goes on to say that ´I don´t know´ and that some may have fled into the east.


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## Lantarion (Aug 1, 2002)

I have always mused that the Entwives (or what was left of them, *sniff*) fled to the Old Forest when it was somewhat larger than during the War of the Ring, but became so afraid and cautious of the outside world that they lost their minds and went 'treeish'. And maybe some Huorns accompanied them, I dunno. 
But I suppose most of them were killed when Sauron destroyed their gardens.


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## Beorn (Aug 1, 2002)

This thread is made of four other threads about Entwives. If you started a topic on Entwives recently, the thread-starting post will be near the bottom (the posts are ordered by date)


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## Arador (Aug 2, 2002)

well at the start of the fellowship of the ring some hobbits saw trees that seemed to be walking so i think that the entwives are somewhere near the shire.


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## Eol (Aug 5, 2002)

I always took the "walking tree" to be an entwife. Here's why:

1. Treebeard and the ents haven't been up that way for a LONG time (so he tells Merry and Pippin) but from the way they describe the Shire the Entwives would like it.

2. I doubt they would go to the old forest since Entwives preferred gardens and orchards to forests, thus they would like land like the shire.

3. The north kingdom was destroyed and no one roamed the lands north of the shire, except the occasional ranger going to the remains of Fornost. So the Entwives would have some safety in isolation.

4. There is some doubt as to whether any Entwives escaped. So if this were the case, the story would have a nice bit of closure in that the ents may finally find the entwives in the fourth age as King Elessar opens the lands that were formerly closed to the ents.

5. And finally I recall either in the appendices or in Unfinished Tales that the Rohirrim occupied Rhovanion (the area between Mirkwood and Anduin (and adjacent to the Brown Lands on the one side and Fangorn on the other side of the Anduin) and on eastern Mirkwood. It is also near the place of origin of the Hobbits (thus the similarities in speech and customs, and how the Rohirrim seemed to be the only people who had any tales of Hobbits). This all seems to be very coincidental. Could it be that when the Hobbits crossed the Misty Mountains, maybe the surviving entwives did as well?

Eol


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## Popqueen62 (Sep 28, 2002)

Were entwives in any other reference besides Two Towers? Because if they aren't, it would be really sad if the ents never found the entwives and died out.


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## Anamatar IV (Sep 28, 2002)

its never mentioned but i always thought that some entwives lived around bombadil. Just a hunch though. No proof of anything.


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## Gil-Galad (Sep 28, 2002)

Well the ents will die.This question is has been posted before and long answers have been written.Entwives are destroyed by Saruman,as I know.And Ents never finds their wives .


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## YayGollum (Sep 28, 2002)

Yikes! What's with the smile, then? oh well. Evil people!  
Anyways, I think the scary Anamatar dude's right. I always thought that Old Man Willow was some weird, momma's boy Ent that decided to leave with the Entwives when they left to go do their thing someplace else. Well, these dudes stopped at the Old Forest where the Entwives gradually turned into the scary trees that are there now. Old Man Willow was the youngest then, so he's the only one with a brain left, and he uses it to mess around with nasssty hobbitses.


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## Anamatar IV (Sep 28, 2002)

i said that? I thought i was saying something like the trees around dilos house were entwives.


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## YayGollum (Sep 28, 2002)

Ack! Well, we're kind of alike! Same forest! oh well.


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## Invar (Sep 28, 2002)

About the first chapter of FotR, a hobbit mentions that a large walking tree has been sighted on the boundary of the Shire. This is most likely an Ent, roaming far from Fangorn searching for the Entwives. However, if you're sentimental, it could be an Entwife.


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## YayGollum (Sep 28, 2002)

Right. That would make sense. An Entwife not far from the Old Forest, wandering around, not really a fan of Old Man Willow, I guess.


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## Bombadillo (Sep 29, 2002)

entwives loved appletrees and the kind of nature where the hobbits lived, ents are lovers of the forests, and this was the main problem of the ents. most ents died whith the first bond of elves and men, but the few entwives that remained went on searching for a place they would like, so it is almost certain that the walking tree was an entwive.


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## Ceorl (Sep 29, 2002)

I am pretty sure that the 'walking tree' seen to the North of the Shire couldn't be an entwife, even if you tried really hard. Consider this quote;



> For the Entwives were bent and browned by their labour; their hair parched yb the sun to the hue of ripe corn and their cheeks like apples.



So basically the Ents looked like the tall trees they loved and the Entwives were like to bushes and corn; short and bent.

They looked nothing alike, except for the eyes;


> Yet their eyes were still the eyes of our own people.




It is however perfectly possible that they still live in ME somewhere, Tolkien has never confirmed the matter although it is pretty certain that he knew the answer in his head and preferred to keep some enigmas for his readers( much like Bombadil).

There is nothing to say that The Old Forest wasn't full of huorns, or even sleepy Ents. After all Fangorn and the Old Forest were one and the same at one stage and not so long ago to the Ents. In fact moving trees can only be Huorns, Ents or Entwives so we can assume that the Old Forest is full of them.

Also those that claim that the reference to walking trees in TFotR was due to Tolkiens writing style early on must remember how many times the book was revised before publication and that if it was a pointless piece of information then it would have been left out.


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## LúthienTinúviel (Oct 1, 2002)

If Tolkien, as he stated in his letters, in fact did not know what exactly happened to the entwives, then it is impossible to argue either way because there simplky isn't an answer. I think it's valid to explore the possiblity that Tolkien wrote these details into his stories so that if he ever did definitively decide that some entwives existed, he could link them to such vague appearances in his other work. But all in all, if Tolkien didn't know, we can't possibly. So I guess we'll just have to get used to dissapointment, eh?


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## Wonko The Sane (Oct 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ceorl _
> *
> 
> " For the Entwives were bent and browned by their labour; their hair parched yb the sun to the hue of ripe corn and their cheeks like apples."
> ...



I would disagree. To me that doesn't liken the Entwives to bushes, to me it means they would look more like an Acacia tree, or my grandmother's peach tree.

Some trees are stunted or twisted or gnarled by the wind and rain and such, and while the Ents were tall and proud for the most part I'd say that the Entwives were probably smaller twistier trees. The reference to corn is just meant to refer to the COLOR of their hair and not to their likeness to corn stalks. They'r cheeks like apples probably means many things: smooth and polished, very rounded, possibly rosy. I think that when he said that their eyes were still of their own people it meant that their eyes resembled the Ents who were primarily Oak trees, birch trees, yews, maples and the like...while the Entwives were perhaps fmaller like fruit trees such as apple trees, pear trees, cherry trees and such...

Just my opinion...but I do not liken the Entwives to bushes at all...and would go so far to say that you are probably mistaken in that.


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## Smokey (Nov 28, 2002)

I have a theory about the Entwives.

What if most of the Entwives were killed by Sauron but some were used to breed the Olog-Hai. The Olog-Hai were seen in areas that were around the brown lands where the Entwives last were known to be. They were also capable of being in sunlight.

Just a theory.


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## Ithrynluin (Nov 28, 2002)

Well trolls _are_ mockeries of ents so that could be a possibility.


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## Beruthiel (Nov 30, 2002)

I've wondered if the elm tree that Sam's uncle Hal saw walking in the woods was an Entwife. Remember, the Old Forest and Fangorn were once part of the same wood long ago...


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## Celebthôl (Nov 30, 2002)

i wondered that same thing but Tree beard knows of the old forest, and so therefore knew that there were no Entwives there.

Thôl


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## Beruthiel (Nov 30, 2002)

*True, but...*

It has been a looong time since Treebeard was up that way. After all, he didn't know about Hobbits, and they've been up there awhile.


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## Ithrynluin (Nov 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Beruthiel _
> *I've wondered if the elm tree that Sam's uncle Hal saw walking in the woods was an Entwife. Remember, the Old Forest and Fangorn were once part of the same wood long ago... *



I've also wondered about that many times and I believe that Hal glimpsed an Entwife.Oh well...


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## Celebthôl (Nov 30, 2002)

wots Hal???


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## Beorn (Nov 30, 2002)

*What* is Hal?

Rather, who is Hal:



> 'No thank 'ee,' said Ted, 'I won't. I heard tell of them when I was a youngster, but there's no call to believe in them now. There's only one Dragon in Bywater, and that's Green,' he said, getting a general laugh.
> 'All right,' said Sam, laughing with the rest. 'But what about these Tree-men, these giants, as you might call them? They do say that one bigger than a tree was seen up away beyond the North Moors not long back.'
> 'Who's they?'
> 'My cousin Hal for one. He works for Mr. Boffin at Overhill and goes up to the Northfarthing for the hunting. He saw one.'
> ...



From the beginning of The Shadow of the Past,


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## Manwe (Nov 30, 2002)

sorry to take thisnthread off track slightly but i was just wondering about the origins of trolls. i mean after the first born and then the birth of men i'm pressuming that trolls weren't created by eru. so who were they created by ? ithrynluin you said that trolls were mockeries of dwarves ?


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## Ithrynluin (Nov 30, 2002)

No,I said trolls are mockeries of _ents_.
No evil creature was created by Eru...orcs,trolls - they were all perverted and corrupted by the dark power. The former were elves and the latter ents.

From The Two Towers, Chapter 4: Treebeard


> 'Will you really break the doors of Isengard?' asked Merry.
> 'Ho, hm, well, we could, you know! You do not know, perhaps, how strong we are. Maybe you have heard of Trolls? They are mighty strong. *But Trolls are only counterfeits, made by the Enemy in the Great Darkness, in mockery of Ents, as Orcs were of Elves.* We are stronger than Trolls. We are made of the bones of the earth.


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## Gil-Galad (Nov 30, 2002)

That is very interesitng theory,but what would be Sauron's purpose of destroying the entwives and creating Olog-Hihgs?


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## Anamatar IV (Nov 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Celebthôl _
> *i wondered that same thing but Tree beard knows of the old forest, and so therefore knew that there were no Entwives there.
> 
> Thôl *



but listen to what Treebeard has to say of that very matter:



> He made them describe the Shire and
> its country over and over again. He said an odd thing at this point. 'You
> never see any, hm, any Ents round there do you?' he asked. 'Well, not Ents,
> Entwives I should really say.'
> ...



So Treebeard would chirp in that that may have been an entwife and he doesnt know if there are any up there.


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## Ithrynluin (Nov 30, 2002)

Gil,you are asking why Sauron would destroy the Entwives and create the Olog-hai? I think that is self-explanatory really. Destroy a potential enemy and create more minions to serve your own cause. Simple as that.

This quote from "The Shadow of the Past" should clarify:


> 'Ever since Bilbo left I have been deeply concerned about you, and about all these charming, absurd, helpless hobbits. It would be a grievous blow to the world, if the Dark Power overcame the Shire; If all your kind, jolly, stupid Bolgers, Hornblowers, Boffins, Bracegirdles, and the rest, not to mention the ridiculous Bagginses, became enslaved.'
> Frodo shuddered. 'But why should we be?' he asked. 'And why should he want such slaves?'
> 'To tell you the truth,' replied Gandalf, 'I believe that hitherto - _hitherto_, mark you - he has entirely overlooked the existence of hobbits. You should be thankful. But your safety has passed. *He does not need you - he has many more useful servants - but he won't forget you again. And hobbits as miserable slaves would please him far more than hobbits happy and free. There is such a thing as malice and revenge*.'



We can apply the same things for ents as well,and for any other people.
Sauron would much rather see the free,good peoples of ME enslaved or destroyed than roaming free and possibly resisting him.


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## Gil-Galad (Nov 30, 2002)

But if he wanted to destroy them,he wouldn't destroy only the entwives but also the ents.So as you can see it is not so simple.


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## Ithrynluin (Nov 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Gil-Galad _
> *But if he wanted to destroy them,he wouldn't destroy only the entwives but also the ents.So as you can see it is not so simple. *



The Ents lived in Fangorn and the Entwives lived in the Brown lands. These are different parts of Middle Earth. Who knows what strategies Sauron had in mind? Maybe he wanted to rid the closer vicinity of Mordor of enemies. Who can say?


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## Gil-Galad (Nov 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *The Ents lived in Fangorn and the Entwives lived in the Brown lands. These are different parts of Middle Earth. Who knows what strategies Sauron had in mind? Maybe he wanted to rid the closer vicinity of Mordor of enemies. Who can say? *


I think he wasn't so stupid do destroy only the entwives.No matter where they live I doubt he would do such thing.Ents have enough power to revenge Sauron if he destroy them.
Probably Sauron would take some entwives to mordor and create the trolls but he wouldn't dare to kill of them.
Well,I think I want this to be so,cause I really don't like the idea of the destruction of entwives by Sauron.


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## Confusticated (Dec 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Gil-Galad _
> *I think he wasn't so stupid do destroy only the entwives.No matter where they live I doubt he would do such thing. Ents have enough power to revenge Sauron if he destroy them. Probably Sauron would take some entwives to mordor and create the trolls but he wouldn't dare to kill of them.
> Well,I think I want this to be so,cause I really don't like the idea of the destruction of entwives by Sauron. *


So the ents would destroy Sauron if he killed some, but they would just leave Sauron alone if he took some captive and did evil things to them?
I know you really don't want it to be that Sauron destroyed entwives, but wouldn't turning them into trolls be destruction of entwives?


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## Smokey (Dec 1, 2002)

Sauron would be destroying both ents and entwives if he destroyed one or the other. No entwives, no new ents. Eventually the ents would die out.


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## Ithrynluin (Dec 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Smokey _
> *Sauron would be destroying both ents and entwives if he destroyed one or the other. No entwives, no new ents. Eventually the ents would die out. *



Hmm....Are Ents mortal? 
And there is no definite answer that the Entwives' sole dwelling were the Brown Lands.


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## Dáin Ironfoot I (Dec 1, 2002)

I've often thought that the trees in the Old Forest were the Entwives, excpet for the fact that there is Old Man Willow...

Anyway, is there any forms of evil that Sauron created in mockery of the Dwarves?


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## Popqueen62 (Dec 1, 2002)

I don't remember. Probably not. though, i wouldn't be surprised.


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## aragil (Dec 2, 2002)

> _from letter 153 to Peter Hastings_
> Treebeard does not say that the Dark Lord 'created' Trolls and Orcs. He says he 'made' them in counterfeit of certain creatures pre-existing. There is, to me, a wide gulf between the two statements, so wide that Treebeard's statement could (in my world) have possibly been true. It is not true actually of the Orcs – who are fundamentally a race of 'rational incarnate' creatures, though horribly corrupted, if no more so than many Men to be met today. Treebeard is a character in my story, not me; and though he has a great memory and some earthy wisdom, he is not one of the Wise, and there is quite a lot he does not know or understand. He does not know what 'wizards' are, or whence they came (though I do, even if exercising my subcreator's right I have thought it best in this Tale to leave the question a 'mystery', not without pointers to the solution).
> Suffering and experience (and possibly the Ring itself) gave Frodo more insight; and you will read in Ch. I of Book VI the words to Sam. 'The Shadow that bred them can only mock, it cannot make real new things of its own. I don't think it gave life to the Orcs, it only ruined them and twisted them.' In the legends of the Elder Days it is suggested that the Diabolus subjugated and corrupted some of the earliest Elves, before they had ever heard of the 'gods', let alone of God.
> I am not sure about Trolls. I think they are mere 'counterfeits', and hence (though here I am of course only using elements of old barbarous mythmaking that had no 'aware' metaphysic) they return to mere stone images when not in the dark. *But there are other sorts of Trolls beside these rather ridiculous, if brutal, Stone-trolls, for which other origins are suggested*.


I think that the 'other origins' that are here alluded to are seen further in HoME v. 12 (which I don't have access to for quotes right now), where Tolkien implies they might be derived from primitive human-ish stock. My own private theory (viewable in _U vs U-h_) is that trolls and men could be cross-bred, producing both the Olog-hai and those enigmatic half-trolls of Far Harad.

As for the Entwives and Hal's vision, these have been discussed previously in this thread


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