# The Troll's purse



## Ronaldinho (Aug 27, 2004)

The Hobbit Ch.2:

"...Bilbo plucked up courage and put his little hand in William's enormous pocket. There was a purse in it...Trolls' purses are the mischief and this was no exception. 'Ere, 'oo are you?' _it_ squeaked, as _it_ _left the pocket_; and William turned round at once and grabbed Bilbo by the neck..." (My italics).

From this passage it is clear that William's purse is sentient and alive. No other mention is made of the purse apart from here. Where did the purse come from? 
How come it's (at least partly) intelligent? Has anyone else thought about this?


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## Maeglin (Aug 27, 2004)

hmmm...I never thought of that before. Trolls were too stupid and didn't have any type of power like the elves or the Istari, so I don't know how he would have gotten a purse like that. I can only assume that Tolkien wasn't thinking so much about the history and lore he would create in the future at the time of writing this passage.


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## HLGStrider (Aug 28, 2004)

Ronaldinho said:


> The Hobbit Ch.2:
> From this passage it is clear that William's purse is sentient and alive. No other mention is made of the purse apart from here. Where did the purse come from?
> How come it's (at least partly) intelligent? Has anyone else thought about this?


Can you necessarily derive "alive" or even "sentient" from one spoken phrase? I find it more likely that the purse was simply endowed with a spell that allowed it to recognize an unfamiliar touch and call out with this one phrase, perhaps also to keep on yelling it as the theif ran with it. 

Consider the spats that would buckle and unbuckle themselves on command? I wouldn't think they were alive.

Just a clever spell.

He probably got it from someone he robbed and upon the death of the old master the purse probably transfered its loyalties, again, probably part of the spell.


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## Inderjit S (Aug 28, 2004)

I think it was just as HLG claims-it was some kind of magic purse, with a really special spell. The Trolls evidently plundered someone or something in order to obtain their treasure, as well as other odd tidbits, such as the swords, which Gandalf and Bilbo take, and so they may have obtained the purse from a plunder. Who made the purse? It doesn't seem very Elvish too me, it almost seems childish, or rather, it seems beneath the dignity of the Elves to produce such a thing. It may have been the work of some magician or another. It obviously takes after it's owner-since it spoke like Trolls.


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## greypilgrim (Aug 28, 2004)

Ronaldinho said:


> The Hobbit Ch.2:
> 
> "...Bilbo plucked up courage and put his little hand in William's enormous pocket. There was a purse in it...Trolls' purses are the mischief and this was no exception. 'Ere, 'oo are you?' _it_ squeaked, as _it_ _left the pocket_; and William turned round at once and grabbed Bilbo by the neck..." (My italics).


My theory;
The Hobbit has been re-written then re-published what, like, three or four times since it was first published? Those people at Ballantine suck eggs! 

I think the troll William was the one who said "Ere, oo are you?"...as "it" (the purse) left William's pocket. Then William collars Bilbo, all in the same motion.


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## Inderjit S (Aug 28, 2004)

People use "it" when they refer to something nonhuman or an inanimate object. "It" also squeaked-Trolls do not squeak. It is also says "it squeaked as it left the pocket", implying that the purse spoke as it left the pocket. If it was William who spoke then Tolkien would have used 'he' or something like that.


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## Ithrynluin (Aug 28, 2004)

Inderjit S said:


> Who made the purse? It doesn't seem very Elvish too me, it almost seems childish, or rather, it seems beneath the dignity of the Elves to produce such a thing. It may have been the work of some magician or another. It obviously takes after it's owner-since it spoke like Trolls.



I find it most likely that this purse had been made by the Dwarves. The reasons why I make this supposition are:

1. The Dwarves made all sorts of toys and devices
2. They hoarded their treasures with greed, and a purse with an inbuilt alarm seems to reflect this characteristic

Perhaps the purse (and others like it) was made for young Dwarves so that they would learn to value and protect riches early on.


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## Inderjit S (Aug 28, 2004)

Ah-yes, I was thinking of the Dwares when I first saw this post-but I wondered whether this was a 'Dwarvish' trinket or not. I also think that knowing the value of money etc. was inbuilt in the Dwarven character-though all intrinsics need some kind of development. Though I like your points, I never really thought of them.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Aug 28, 2004)

Inderjit S said:


> Ah-yes, I was thinking of the Dwares when I first saw this post-but I wondered whether this was a 'Dwarvish' trinket or not. I also think that knowing the value of money etc. was inbuilt in the Dwarven character-though all intrinsics need some kind of development. Though I like your points, I never really thought of them.



Well, the question arises, Why would the dwarvish toy industry go in for making Troll purses? Doesn't quite gel. And the quote goes, "Troll's purses are the mischief..." which makes me think that it wasn't any sort of a dwarf product at all. And trolls of that type are evidently too stupid to know how to make a magic purse. And if it had been of dwarf-make, one would have thought that at least one of the dwarves would have had something to say about it.

No, I think this is one of those cases that might be termed a passing pleasantry, a touch of color, a fleeting moment, a mere trifle. Same thing with that fox passing by ("on business of his own") who saw four hobbits abroad at night, and thought it strange, "but he never found out any more about it." And that's the last we hear of him.

I doubt if Tolkien had anything more profound on his mind than just a touch of fun, "agreeable incidents," as it were. No heavy backstories here!

Barley

"I would rather be an opportunist and float than go to the bottom with my principles around my neck." —Stanley Baldwin ("In politics a man must learn to rise above principle." —Lawrence J. Peter) 114


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## Ithrynluin (Aug 28, 2004)

> Why would the dwarvish toy industry go in for making Troll purses?



They wouldn't, of course. But who says that was a Troll purse? It can easily be explained that a troll owned it, therefore it was a Troll purse. It would also be advisable to examine whose perspective we are hearing. Might it be that _'Trolls' purses are the mischief and this was no exception.'_ was merely a rumour that went among hobbits, and Bilbo, being a hobbit, would remember this rumour upon seing the purse?



> And the quote goes, "Troll's purses are the mischief..." which makes me think that it wasn't any sort of a dwarf product at all.



Why is that? The purse would betray anyone trying to snatch it away from its owner. Clearly, that would make the purse seem 'mischievous' to the person attempting to steal it?



> And if it had been of dwarf-make, one would have thought that at least one of the dwarves would have had something to say about it.



Were the Dwarves in the immediate vicinity, so as to be able to see (and hear) the purse? I don't think so. Would Bilbo have told the Dwarves about it necessarily? No. Even if the Dwarves had glimpsed the purse, would they necessarily have recognized it? Seeing how many different dwarven 'houses' there were, I'd opt for 'no'.



> No, I think this is one of those cases that might be termed a passing pleasantry, a touch of color, a fleeting moment, a mere trifle.



May be that, but then again, it may not. The motives and circumstances within the story certainly make enough sense and allow for enough possibilities for me not to go dispensing it as 'a passing pleasantry' with any kind of certainty.


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## Inderjit S (Aug 28, 2004)

> Well, the question arises, Why would the dwarvish toy industry go in for making Troll purses?



Not so much the Dwarvish toy industry-I do not think there was much of a demand for Dwarvish toys outside Dale, and as Adam Smith would tell you, there is no point is supplying anything if there is no demand and supply cannot stimulate a non-existent demand. I think ithrynluin is hinting more at some kind of normal, maybe every-day, Dwarven conception. 



> And if it had been of dwarf-make, one would have thought that at least one of the dwarves would have had something to say about it.



Another thought I failed to articulate. But, we do not hear EVERY piece of dialogue from 'The Hobbit', and maybe Tolkien did not think about it very much-we are discussing anomalies in Tolkien's work, anomalies that Tolkien naturally left up in the air. Although there is no right answer-we can make logical guesses based on our knowledge. 



> "Troll's purses are the mischief..."



That is the narrator speaking. The narrator is Bilbo Baggins. He would naturally incorporate his own views and myths into the passage. We know that anything Trollish is mischief, so it is possible that "purse" could have been substituted for a great many other objects.



> I doubt if Tolkien had anything more profound on his mind than just a touch of fun, "agreeable incidents," as it were. No heavy backstories here!



But somebody obviously made the purse-and we can make some educated guesses as to who exactly may have made the purse. Tolkien leaves a lot of things ambiguous, naturally, his legendarium is huge, but we can attempt to fill in the missing pieces.


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## joxy (Aug 29, 2004)

Ithrynluin said:


> <And the quote goes, "Troll's purses are the mischief..." which makes me think that it wasn't any sort of a dwarf product at all.>
> Why is that?


It's that they're specifically "*trolls'* purses", rather than that they're "the mischief", that's the point here.
My first reaction was to look to the dwarves, but I don't really agree that trolls themselves are totally stupid, so second thoughts say that they may well have at least one special skill, purse-making!


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## Barliman Butterbur (Aug 29, 2004)

joxy said:


> ...I don't really agree that trolls themselves are totally stupid, so second thoughts say that they may well have at least one special skill, purse-making!



LOL ROFL! If true, we know they made at least one! Otherwise, I have a strong feeling that the trade had come upon bad times! :::shakes head, grinning:::

Barley

"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." —Voltaire


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