# The necromancer



## Master of maps (Apr 20, 2008)

There is mention of the "necromancer" and the necromancers lair at the beginning of the hobbbit, in chapter 1, when gandalf mentions where he attained Thorins grandfathers map. All of the dwarves Shudder at the mention of it and its lair. There is also mention of it at the end of the book when Gandalf says that the white council managed to banish the necromancer from the land. I thought that it would be worth looking into, but since I haven't been able to find anything about it in the other books, I figured I must have missed something. If you know anything about the necromancer, please add a reply.


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## Mike (Apr 20, 2008)

Necromancer of Dol Guldur = Sauron.


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## YayGollum (Apr 21, 2008)

Additionally, the Necromancer = Sauron fashioning (or just accepting?) an alias for his temporary hideout in Mirkwood while he pulled his power together, planning on retrying his take over the world bit. He was defeated in Mordor but crawled his way over to Mirkwood for a bit. I am unaware of whether he was planning on regaining his strength from there and attempting to take over the world, or if he planned on heading back over to Mordor when he felt safer. The White Council helped him out with that, though. He was called the Necromancer just because he had creepy death powers. Coming back to life every two seconds due to the One Ring, keeping those Nazgul lackeys around, and mayhaps all kinds of evil as well as creepy experiments with souls. The WitchKing did such things, and we know that he had that awesome fuel source called the Dead Marshes.


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## Gordis (Apr 23, 2008)

YayGollum said:


> The WitchKing did such things, and we know that he had that awesome fuel source called the Dead Marshes.


That is interesting... Could you, please, elaborate?


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## YayGollum (Apr 23, 2008)

The WitchKing was called that because he used to be hanging out up in Angmar and apparently had something to with those creepy barrow wights showing up. Some kind of creepy power over dead people there. He was supposed to be some kind of magic using guy. Unfortunately, we didn't get to see much of that in action or get much of his powers explained. We just read, "Yeah, he was the WitchKing. Only seems to be as good as any other Nazgul, but trust me, he's more powerful than he's shown in those really import battles."  

And I only mentioned the Dead Marshes as a hypothetical fuel source. Nothing actually informs us that anybody could make those ghosts do anything. I just think that it's too much of a coincidence that everyone who died there acts the same and make a nice security system for Mordor.


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## Gordis (Apr 23, 2008)

Sure - I agree. The WK commanded the Wights and thus was also a proven necromancer. I was only surprised that you seemed to imply his association with Dead Marches. I have misread you, sorry


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## Firawyn (Apr 24, 2008)

Well if the Witch King was a necromancer, how to we know that he wasn't the necromancer Gandalf was referring to?

The Witch King did seem of have a bit of a grudge against Gandalf...


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## Gordis (Apr 24, 2008)

Wiki had an alibi - he was busy ruling Minas Morgul and Mordor. It was Sauron who dwelt in Dol Guldur, from around TA 1000 to TA 2942


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## Gothmog (Apr 24, 2008)

Gordis said:


> Wiki had an alibi - he was busy ruling Minas Morgul and Mordor. It was Sauron who dwelt in Dol Guldur, from around TA 1000 to TA 2942


Hmm. I thought that Wiki was busy doing an Encyclopaedia, but perhaps this was a bit later.


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## Echo (Apr 24, 2008)

Firawyn said:


> Well if the Witch King was a necromancer, how to we know that he wasn't the necromancer Gandalf was referring to?
> 
> The Witch King did seem of have a bit of a grudge against Gandalf...



Gandalf actually states in _The Lord of the Rings_ (in the Council of Elrond I believe) that when the White Council drove the Necromancer out of Dol Guldur, around the time of _The Hobbit_, they found out that it was actually Sauron and he soon reappeared in Mordor. He had just been biding his time in Mirkwood.


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## Gordis (Apr 24, 2008)

Gothmog said:


> Hmm. I thought that Wiki was busy doing an Encyclopaedia, but perhaps this was a bit later.



The Wikipedia was the most evil of the Witch-King's necromantic projects.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Apr 24, 2008)

Necromancer = Sauron.

necromancy: the supposed practice of communicating with the dead, esp. in order to predict the future.
• witchcraft, sorcery, or black magic in general.

Barley


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## Master of maps (Apr 26, 2008)

I thought i remembered reading somwhere about sauron being (or assumed as being) the necromancer, but i wasnt sure, and i thought that i would better off not mentioning it until after i found out for certain, in case i was horribly wrong, lol. anyway nevertheless, now i know. Thanks for the help.


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## Aglarband (Apr 30, 2008)

This is why you should read the appendices at the end of Return of the King. Alot of loose ends are tied up there, especially concerning what Gandalf did when he left the Dwarves and Bilbo in The Hobbit.


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## Sidhe (Apr 30, 2008)

YayGollum said:


> The WitchKing was called that because he used to be hanging out up in Angmar and apparently had something to with those creepy barrow wights showing up. Some kind of creepy power over dead people there. He was supposed to be some kind of magic using guy. Unfortunately, we didn't get to see much of that in action or get much of his powers explained. We just read, "Yeah, he was the WitchKing. Only seems to be as good as any other Nazgul, but trust me, he's more powerful than he's shown in those really import battles."
> 
> And I only mentioned the Dead Marshes as a hypothetical fuel source. Nothing actually informs us that anybody could make those ghosts do anything. I just think that it's too much of a coincidence that everyone who died there acts the same and make a nice security system for Mordor.



I don't think the dead are anything but a fuel source, I think you're right even if it is speculatory. Such sites have always been used by those with evil in mind to further evil. I'm sure it's not an accident that such sites and mass graves are seemingly more active in the times of the LoTR such as The Barrow Downs and so on. After all if your going to set a trap to catch a thief, then surely all your assets are useful? Or am I just over speculating?

Witchking=Sorcerer/necromancer+evil military genius/king all in one. This is the guy who bought about the downfall of The three kingdoms of Arnor (is that an example of divide and conquer?) not in 100 years but by a process of a attrition and subtle sabotage over a millenia or so, before he was finally ousted from Angmar and his "kingdom" destroyed utterly by an intervention of Elves. Smart is not the word for The Witchking, his genius for all things sorcerous and military is surpassed only by Sauron and Melkor themselves. Evil often has all the best generals or in this case Field Marshals. All the more poignant that such minds (excepting Melkor who already dwells in the void) were brought low by a few Hobbitses, with some notable help from the combined will of the West. 

Interesting question, one of the few times when Sauron speaks in the common tongue in the film - when Frodo sits on the seeing seat at Amon Hen with the ring on after escaping from Boromir - where Sauron says "there is only death in the void..." I always wondered why he says this in the film, as it seems strangely contextless with the scene?


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## Master of maps (May 1, 2008)

It seems that new line cinema has skrewed up again.....


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## Sidhe (May 1, 2008)

Master of maps said:


> It seems that new line cinema has skrewed up again.....



Indeed, it's an oddly pointless phrase? I suppose they wanted to put his voice in, and sort of lacked any idea what to say; "I spy with my massive eye something beginning with...R!" Would have been better.


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## Gordis (May 2, 2008)

Sidhe said:


> Witchking=Sorcerer/necromancer+evil military genius/king all in one. This is the guy who bought about the downfall of The three kingdoms of Arnor (is that an example of divide and conquer?) not in 100 years but by a process of a attrition and subtle sabotage over a millenia or so, before he was finally ousted from Angmar and his "kingdom" destroyed utterly by an intervention of Elves. Smart is not the word for The Witchking, his genius for all things sorcerous and military is surpassed only by Sauron and Melkor themselves. Evil often has all the best generals or in this case Field Marshals.



Wonderful analysis, Sidhe!
Only I have a feeling that the Witch-King must have surpassed Sauron in all things military (albeit not in sorcery) - that's why he was so high in Sauron's favor (with his own city and own banner) and why he was so indispensable. 
Sauron never excelled as general: Gothmog was the one in command of Morgoth's armies, not Sauron. We hardly hear about Sauron in the accounts of the First Age battles. He lost the war against the Elves and Numenoreans in SA 1695-1700, he didn't even try to fight Ar-Pharazon, he lost the Last Alliance war. On his own, he sat in Dol Guldur for 2000 years quiet like a mouse, while the Witch-King ruled Angmar, fought his battles in the North or took Minas Ithil. 
It is rather obvious from LOTR that the WK was truly in command of all the Minas Tirith operation, not Sauron, and failed only because Sauron himself (who had the Eye and the Palantir) had overlooked the coming of the Rohirrim, the arrival of Aragorn and let his pall of darkness dissipate.
After the WK was slain, Sauron seemed to loose his confidence, taking a defensive stance against the minuscule army of the West.


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## Gothmog (May 2, 2008)

Gordis said:


> Only I have a feeling that the Witch-King must have surpassed Sauron in all things military (albeit not in sorcery) - that's why he was so high in Sauron's favor (with his own city and own banner) and why he was so indispensable.


I agree. In fact this is probably the reason that Sauron gave him one of the Nine.


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## Gordis (May 4, 2008)

Gothmog said:


> In fact this is probably the reason that Sauron gave him one of the Nine.


I think you are right. But there must have been another factor - a born talent for sorcery. 

Let us face it - the Witch-King was the most powerful mortal-born sorcerer in Middle Earth. The other nazgul were far behind him, rings or no rings. 
Why so? As the rings amplified the inner powers of their wielders, we have to suppose that to become a great sorcerer, one had to be somewhat of a sorcerer even before the ring. The Mouth of Sauron, or Aragorn, if given a Great ring, would become powerful sorcerers, while Boromir or Barliman Butterbur wouldn't - no matter how they tried.

It stands to reason that among those of high Numenorean blood, predisposition to sorcery was not uncommon, with some more apt than the others. Also note that according the Line of Elros (UT) all the high Numenoreans had a hobby: Elven lore, or astronomy, or ships, or sheep, or dancing. Maybe there was one studying the occult - that would bring him to Sauron's attention and make him a good candidate for receiving a Ring.


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## Snaga (May 11, 2008)

Gordis said:


> Wonderful analysis, Sidhe!
> Only I have a feeling that the Witch-King must have surpassed Sauron in all things military (albeit not in sorcery) - that's why he was so high in Sauron's favor (with his own city and own banner) and why he was so indispensable.
> Sauron never excelled as general: Gothmog was the one in command of Morgoth's armies, not Sauron. We hardly hear about Sauron in the accounts of the First Age battles. He lost the war against the Elves and Numenoreans in SA 1695-1700, he didn't even try to fight Ar-Pharazon, he lost the Last Alliance war. On his own, he sat in Dol Guldur for 2000 years quiet like a mouse, while the Witch-King ruled Angmar, fought his battles in the North or took Minas Ithil.
> It is rather obvious from LOTR that the WK was truly in command of all the Minas Tirith operation, not Sauron, and failed only because Sauron himself (who had the Eye and the Palantir) had overlooked the coming of the Rohirrim, the arrival of Aragorn and let his pall of darkness dissipate.
> After the WK was slain, Sauron seemed to loose his confidence, taking a defensive stance against the minuscule army of the West.



Hmmm... I think I better stand up for the Boss! 

I think it would be reasonable to chalk the war in the 2nd age as a draw. After all, Sauron's main objective was to talk the Rings of Power and destroy Celebrimbor and the elven kingdom in Hollin. He achieved this, but yes, then got a bit overstretched, and it didn't go so well after that.

I think its also fair to say that being in charge doesn't necessarily mean leading from the front. After all why go to the bother of gaining control of 9 fearsome servants, if you have to do everything yourself??

I also don't think you can say Sauron 'overlooked' the coming of the Rohirrim. They sent an army to hold the road to Rohirrim, but weren't thorough enough. If the Witch-King was in charge 'on the ground' he'd have to take the blame for that. The palantir is not able, as I understand it, to 'home in on' an enemy at will. I don't think Sauron could have just said "Palantir Palantir, show me.... King Theoden!" and got an instant fix on him.

I'm not sure that Sauron's tactic vs Aragorns army of waiting for him to reach the Black Gate was a military miscalculation. He'd have won if it hadn't been for those meddling hobbits! If anything, this was over-confidence not a loss of confidence.

As for Sauron 'sitting in Dol Guldur quiet as a mouse' - well from there, while keeping a low profile, he stirred up all sorts of trouble. Its a hard job being more open if you are just a disembodied evil will (let me tell you). If you consider that, in all that time he managed to massively weaken his foes through using his servants, whilst keeping undercover, its not such a bad strategy.


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## Gordis (May 12, 2008)

Defending the Boss, are you?  Well, well...



> I think it would be reasonable to chalk the war in the 2nd age as a draw. After all, Sauron's main objective was to talk the Rings of Power and destroy Celebrimbor and the elven kingdom in Hollin. He achieved this, but yes, then got a bit overstretched, and it didn't go so well after that.


Not too brilliant, all this. If he only wanted Celebrimbor and his Rings, then it would be much more clever to hit and run, instead of overstretching. He had plenty of time and could have saved his army. The fact that he didn’t even try to fight Ar-Pharazon proves that he did consider the previous campaign a mistake. 
Also don't forget his near lack of military record from the First age.



> After all why go to the bother of gaining control of 9 fearsome servants, if you have to do everything yourself??


 Especially if they are so much better at it than the Boss himself.



> I also don't think you can say Sauron 'overlooked' the coming of the Rohirrim. They sent an army to hold the road to Rohirrim, but weren't thorough enough. If the Witch-King was in charge 'on the ground' he'd have to take the blame for that.


Maybe not. The road through the Druadan Forest was unknown to the Mordor side. Neither was it known to the Rohirrim, though. The WK did guard the road well, but the Rohirrim, helped by the Druedain, found the way around. Not really anybody’s fault, just poor intelligence.

But whose fault was it that the Rohirrim came to Gondor’s aid in the first place?  - Saruman’s and Sauron’s – their plan to destroy the army of Rohan before the assault on Minas Tirith had failed. They should have burned the Fangorn forest long ago. Also, it would have been a good idea to strike Rohan from Mordor simultaneously with Minas Tirith, and not only with the puny Dol Guldur force. Maybe it would have been better to hit Rohan with all Mordor’s might _instead _of Minas Tirith. But Sauron was poor strategist and left the major part of his forces idle in Mordor.

Re: the Palantir. Maybe Sauron didn’t miss the Rohirrim, but he did miss the fighting at Pelargir and the arrival of Aragorn in the Black ships instead of the Corsairs. Why? I guess because Sauron, this control-freak, too eager on mind-games with Denethor, never had proper Palantir wardens who could observe the device 24/7. He himself simply didn’t have enough free time to give the Palantir his undivided attention. Result: major events missed.



> I'm not sure that Sauron's tactic vs Aragorns army of waiting for him to reach the Black Gate was a military miscalculation. He'd have won if it hadn't been for those meddling hobbits! If anything, this was over-confidence not a loss of confidence.


 Nay, Sauron was in doubt and in fear after the defeat at the Pelennor. The capital of Gondor stood with broken gates, an easy prey – if only he had sent overwhelming reserves, which he did have at his disposal. Actually, if he had guts and expertise, he would have come in person to replace the Witch-King. He could have taken Minas Tirith and then would have had time to deal with the “spies” loose in Mordor. Instead he lost all the initiative to his foes.



> As for Sauron 'sitting in Dol Guldur quiet as a mouse' - well from there, while keeping a low profile, he stirred up all sorts of trouble.


 That he did. He was brilliant in intrigue and political maneuvering, but when it was time to fight he needed the WK.


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## Master of maps (May 13, 2008)

If sauron would have sent "overwhelming reserves which he had at his disposal" he would have affectively left mount doom ungaurded to the same degree as when the men of gondor made the diversion. It wouldnt have done him any good. He was trapped between a hammer and an anvil.


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## Gordis (May 13, 2008)

Well, Sauron didn't know he was to guard Mt-Doom. Had he known, a company of uruks would have been enough. 

But, please, count - on March 15 the battle on the Pelennor was lost - and Frodo escaped Cirith Ungol. If Sauron but managed to salvage the battle - taking command in person for instance, by March 16-17 he would have got Minas Tirith. Then he would have known that the Ring was NOT there as he had thought, and could concentrate on searching for it. Frodo wouldn't have made it to the Mountain that fast, even if he took the straight road.


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## Sidhe (May 16, 2008)

Gordis said:


> Wonderful analysis, Sidhe!
> Only I have a feeling that the Witch-King must have surpassed Sauron in all things military (albeit not in sorcery) - that's why he was so high in Sauron's favor (with his own city and own banner) and why he was so indispensable.
> Sauron never excelled as general: Gothmog was the one in command of Morgoth's armies, not Sauron. We hardly hear about Sauron in the accounts of the First Age battles. He lost the war against the Elves and Numenoreans in SA 1695-1700, he didn't even try to fight Ar-Pharazon, he lost the Last Alliance war. On his own, he sat in Dol Guldur for 2000 years quiet like a mouse, while the Witch-King ruled Angmar, fought his battles in the North or took Minas Ithil.
> It is rather obvious from LOTR that the WK was truly in command of all the Minas Tirith operation, not Sauron, and failed only because Sauron himself (who had the Eye and the Palantir) had overlooked the coming of the Rohirrim, the arrival of Aragorn and let his pall of darkness dissipate.
> After the WK was slain, Sauron seemed to loose his confidence, taking a defensive stance against the minuscule army of the West.



Oh yeah I agree with that. Great leaders always have great generals around them. Sauron was the plotter, the king of sowing sedition and intrigue I suppose rather than a military plotter.


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## Master of maps (May 17, 2008)

If sauron had found that the ring wasnt in minas tirith, and he had started searching, then he probably would have plundered places such as rohan and neglected to have searched mordor. he would be to proud to admitt that somebody could have infiltrated mordor. And though he had heard that spies had possibly entered mordor, he would have thought they were there to find out his military tactics, and he wouldnt even have considered that they would ultimately bring forth his downfall.


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## Illuin (May 29, 2008)

> The fact that he didn’t even try to fight Ar-Pharazon proves that he did consider the previous campaign a mistake.


 
Hmmm. Not sure if I agree with that.

_*“And Sauron came. Even from his mighty tower of Barad-dur he came, and made no offer of battle. For he perceived that the power and majesty of the Kings of the Sea surpassed all rumor of them, so that he could not trust even the greatest of his servants to withstand them; and he saw not his time yet to work his will with the Dunedain. And he was crafty, well skilled to gain what he would by subtlety when force might not avail.”*_ 
_(Akallabeth)_

What I gather from this is that Sauron didn’t try to fight because Ar-Pharazon’s army must have been mind boggling to say the least. Sauron also had a far better plan in mind, and was scheming. I don’t believe it has anything to do with him considering his previous campaign a mistake.


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