# Did Ulmo create the vale of Tumladen on purpose?



## Arvedui (Sep 2, 2003)

The following is written in _The Silmarillion:_ 


> It has been told how by the guidance of Ulmo Turgon of Nevrast discovered the hidden vale of Tumladen; and that (as was after known) lay east of the upper waters of Sirion, in a ring of mountains tall and sheer, and no living thing came there save the eagles of Thorondor. But there was a deep way under the mountains *delved in the darkness of the world by waters that flowed out* to join the streams of Sirion; and this way Turgon found, and so came to the green plain amid the mountains, and saw the island-hill that stood there of hard smooth stone; for *the vale had been a great lake* in ancient days.


Is it possible that Ulmo caused this to happen with the spesific purpose that it should be a stronghold in ages to come, if the need should ever arise?

I understand that this would require quite an amount of foresight. But it still seems quite possible to me. 
Any ideas, anyone?


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## Flammifer (Sep 2, 2003)

Yeah this would seem to make sense as doesn't Ulmo at least once tell Turgon that he should stay hidden in Gondolin? *EDIT:* So it may seem that Ulmo made it for the purpose of Turgon staying hidden, and he didn't want his efforts wasted or something. I'm not sure. Just an idea.

Ulmo would probably be able to foresee this, being the third mightiest Vala, so a large amount of foresight probably would have been given to him. If you consider it, he knew that the Elves would be fighting Melkor. He knew that they would need strongholds (preferably hidden). And he knew that he could use the Eagles to stop people going near and finding out where it was. And he probably knew some more stuff. So I think he could have foreseen it. Whoah that's a big edit! Sorry forgot to state the relevance of the original stuff.


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## Eriol (Sep 2, 2003)

It all depends on how much stock you put into that scary music thingy at the Ainulindalë. How much did Ulmo know? I think I am in a minority when I think that the knowledge held by the Valar in general is much smaller than most people assume. I don't think, for instance, that Ulmo _knew_ that Manwë would release Melkor. Could the Valar know even the decisions of other Valar in advance? I don't think so.

This, of course, does not rule out the possibility that Ulmo did some prophetic foreseeing in this matter, perhaps inspired by Eru. 

But I have another question -- could Ulmo empty that lake by himself? Would he not need Aulë's help? Would not Yavanna be aware of the vale, with all of her flowers there? What about Manwë? His eagles nested there.

I mean, if it was foresight, it was a team effort -- or so I think. 

Of course, it may have been just a coincidence; perhaps the lake was emptied by natural forces (I don't think the Valar consciously governed every single thing in the world -- they probably left a lot of things to "natural laws"), and Ulmo simply was aware of it.

How's that for a noncommittal post?


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## Arvedui (Sep 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Eriol _
> *
> How's that for a noncommittal post?
> 
> *



LOL!
But did he have to know about the release of Melkor? I don't think so. He knew about Melkor and his deeds. He know about the coming of the Children of Ilúvatar. He didn't need to know about the Elves coming to Valinor, or that Melkor was captured in the first place.

We know that water tears down on rock, over time. The way I see it, Ulmo could very well have the power to speed up that prosess.


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## Flammifer (Sep 3, 2003)

I agree Arvedui. Besides, didn't Ulmo like uproot a land and float the Elves on it from Beleriand to Valinor? So I think he could deal with a little vale.



> But I have another question -- could Ulmo empty that lake by himself? Would he not need Aulë's help? Would not Yavanna be aware of the vale, with all of her flowers there? What about Manwë? His eagles nested there.



He might've needed Aulë's help, water shapes rock over time, and, if he concentrated his efforts, surely Ulmo could have done this relatively quickly right?

And about Manwë's eagles, like I mentioned above, maybe they were only asked to go there to stop Melkor from discovering Gondolin?

Also as I mentioned above, there were several points and more that Ulmo would have considered, his mind being substantially more diverse than mine.......and seeing as _I_ could think of those things, Ulmo would have known a lot more.......


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