# Gandalf a Maia?



## Veramir (Jul 13, 2003)

Originally posted by Ithrynluin:



> Well, that depends. How far do you think a Maia has to be to another Maia to sense its presence? And keep in mind that Gandalf has been through Moria on one other occasion.



This is refering to the possibility of Gandalf waking up the Balrog in Moria due to the Balrog sensing the presence of a fellow maia.

I don't understand how Gandalf is a Maia, can someone please explain? I just need a clearer understanding of it.
Thanks guys!
~V~


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## Celebthôl (Jul 13, 2003)

He was created before Arda (The whole planet), among the Valar (the Gods) and the other Maia.
He played a part in the first song.
He was sent from Valinor by Manwë to help guide the free peoples of Middle Earth against Sauron (with others; namely: Saruman, Radagast, Alatar and Pollando).
He was commanded to not use his full power to contend Sauron and he came on the form of a mans body.
His body never aged though he still had to eat and sleep like a Man.

I think that covers it...(though this is probibly very confusing...im off my game at the moment....sorry)


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## Veramir (Jul 13, 2003)

OK, that has made it clearer. I knew that he was sent by Manwe to help the free peoples against Sauron, bit I didn't realise that he played a part in the first song.
I just thought the Istari were something totally seperate to the Maia as I don't recall reading anything that said they were Maiar.
Thankyou for your help Celebthol!  
~V~


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## Celebthôl (Jul 13, 2003)

Thats quite alright 

Here from the EoA

"The order of Wizards, the Maiar who came to Middle-earth after the first millennium of the Third Age. Of these, five came to the northwestern regions; Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast, Alatar and Pallando."


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## legandir (Jul 17, 2003)

For further information I would check out Unfinished Tales - one of the last chapters discusses the Istari (wizards) who came out of the west.

I found it very interesting that Gandalf can be traced back to Olorin, who as a maiar appears in some of the early writings of the Ainur and their origins.

I never considered the idea that Gandalf 'woke up' the Balrog, I will have to reread that section to see although Im sure that it is possible.


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## Arvedui (Jul 17, 2003)

Traced back to?

Gandalf is Olorin.


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## legandir (Jul 18, 2003)

I will try this again

Gandalf can be traced back to Olorin - if you want to find the literal origin of Gandalf it resides in the Maiar Olorin as he resided in Valinor.

The Valar appointed certain maiar to be incarnated into a 'Elven/Human' form and thus took on the hardships of the children of the moon and sun when they came to ME from the West.

Olorin became Gandalf, although in becoming Gandalf he had to rediscover much that a Maiar would know and within the human shell found he could wield a power of persuasion and guidance but that forcing actions would be useless.


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## Flame of Udûn (Jul 19, 2003)

Maia is the singular form.
Maiar is the plural form.


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## Rangerdave (Jul 19, 2003)

> Among Men they were supposed (at first) by those that had dealings with them to be Men who had acquired lore and arts by long and secret study...
> Yet they were not so. For they came from over the Sea out of the Uttermost West; though this was for long known only to Círdan, Guardian of the Third Ring, master of the Grey Havens, who saw their landings upon the western shores. Emissaries they were from Lords of the West, the Valar, who still took counsel for the governance of Middle-earth, and when the shadow of Sauron began first to stir again took this means of resisting him. For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies of as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years. And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed; whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men and Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt.
> 
> For it is said indeed that being embodied the Istari had needs to learn much anew by slow experience, and though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly. Thus by enduring of free will the pangs of exile and the deceits of Sauron they might redress the evils of that time.
> ...


 

This might help clear things up a bit

RD


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## Veramir (Jul 19, 2003)

Wow! This is all very interesting! One day i hope to know as much as you guys on these matters!
Seriously, thanks for your help guys. I felt a bit silly asking about it in the first place as you all seemed to think it was kinda obvious but you are all very helpfull and kind!
Thanks again, it is clearer to me now...
~V~


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## Inderjit S (Jul 21, 2003)

Tolkien altered the nature of the two Blue Wizards, in _Last Writings_ (HoME 12) tells us that they came to M-E in the S.A under the guises of Morinehtar and Romestamo, they went to the east of M-E to help the wild men, though Tolkien hints at them having slightly more success then the Alatar and Pallando sceanrio had, as he mentions in the _Letters of J.R.R Tolkien_ they may have fell under Sauron's shadow, or set up cults of their own.

For me, a lot of the refernces to Wizards in LoTR needed some revision. He keeps on refering to their order as if there were a lot in M-E. He tells the Council that his order had previously been welcomed well in Minas Tirtih yet how many of his order would go there? Saruman and him. Radagast had no reason to go there plus the Blue Wizards didn't go to Western M-E-that was not their mission. The mystifying reference to many wizards could be because at the time of writing as shown in drafts for LoTR in HoME 6 _Return of the Shadow_ and _Treason of Isengard_ Tolkien was unsure about the nature of what wizards were.


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## Thorondor_ (May 15, 2005)

On the possibility of Gandalf waking up the Balrog in Moria due to the Balrog sensing the presence of a fellow maia, I remember that Frodo also saw the true form of Glorfindel, when he was under the power of the ring. And I presume that a maia would have a similar perception.


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## Phenix (May 16, 2005)

Celebthôl said:


> ...Of these, five came to the northwestern regions; Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast, Alatar and Pallando."



doesn't that indicate that there could very well be a lot more wizards lose in the world than recorded? they could ofcourse have "died" shortly after their arrival, after completing their tasks, but would it be to much to assume that there migh have been as many as nine Istaris to begin with? in order to counter the threat of the nazguls perhaps??
min i'm just throwing teories around now, i have no facts to base this upon so if anyone has anything that proves me wrong plz show me


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## Ithrynluin (May 16, 2005)

In _Unfinished Tales; The Istari _ we have:



> Of this Order the number is unknown; but of those that came to the North of Middle-earth, where there was most hope (because of the remnant of the Dunedain and of the Eldar that abode there), the chiefs was five.



I suppose this allows for some freedom to squeeze through your theory, Phenix, that the Order included more than five wizards total, though these probably weren't present in the North-East of Middle-earth.


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