# The Blue Wizards



## Odin (Feb 4, 2013)

In the Hobbit Gandalf mentions that there are five wizards, and the two we don't see are the Blue Wizards, but we never see hide or hair of them.

Who are the Blue Wizards and why didn't they help in the fight against Sauron?


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## Bucky (Feb 5, 2013)

Read Unfinished Tales.


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## Prince of Cats (Feb 5, 2013)

They're largely a mystery Under the posts on this thread you can see some related topics where people have pondered the question in the past. Unfortunately we don't have much writing from Tolkien on them


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## Odin (Feb 9, 2013)

Prince of Cats said:


> They're largely a mystery Under the posts on this thread you can see some related topics where people have pondered the question in the past. Unfortunately we don't have much writing from Tolkien on them



Tolkein mentions that they went into the East with Saruman to investigate rumours of Sauron's survival. But of the three, only Curunir returned and the White Wizard was tight-lipped about their fate.

I wonder if Saruman killed Allatar and Pallando.


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## Prince of Cats (Feb 10, 2013)

Odin said:


> I wonder if Saruman killed Allatar and Pallando.


 That's an interesting idea that I never considered


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## Odin (Feb 10, 2013)

Prince of Cats said:


> That's an interesting idea that I never considered



It's definitely something to consider, as Saruman mentions a desire to possess "the rods of the five wizards". It's possible that Saruman murdered the Blue Wizards and took their staffs. The role the staffs play in the power of the Istari is unclear, but perhaps holding all five would strengthen Saruman immensely.


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## Bucky (Feb 11, 2013)

Odin said:


> Tolkein mentions that they went into the East with Saruman to investigate rumours of Sauron's survival. But of the three, only Curunir returned and the White Wizard was tight-lipped about their fate.
> 
> I wonder if Saruman killed Allatar and Pallando.



*I would have to say that saying 'Saruman was tightlipped about their fate' is a bit of a stretch....

tolkien simply didn't write anything indepth on the subject at the time of TLOR~ or ever really.

Anything other than 'there's nothing to add at the time TLOR was published' is mere speculation.

*


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## Eledhwen (Feb 11, 2013)

Odin said:


> Saruman mentions a desire to possess "the rods of the five wizards". It's possible that Saruman murdered the Blue Wizards and took their staffs.


If he did this, then I think he would have had at least one of them with him in The Shire; or they would have been found when Orthanc was searched (the Elendilmir was found, and mentioned, so I think the staves would have earned a few lines of comment if Tolkien intended this). Until or unless Christopher Tolkien has more to add, the blue wizards will remain an enigma.


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## Valandil (Feb 11, 2013)

I take Saruman's statement somewhat differently. I think perhaps the wizards/Istari used a staff to focus their power - but I don't think it was a source of their power, or that it increased their power. I don't think a wizard could wield more than one at a time.

Gandalf probably went through a few staffs in LOTR. I doubt Saruman allowed him to take his to the top of Orthanc - or gave it back upon his departure. And I doubt he recovered the one he was carrying before fighting the Balrog. So he had at least three through the course of the story.

I believe Saruman's statement is meant to imply that Gandalf wants the other wizards to be subject to him.


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## OfRhosgobel (Feb 12, 2013)

Everyone first hearing about the "Blue Wizards" is always like..."What? Their are more wizards!!!?" lol! I love it, but please refer to the long and numerouse previous posts about the blue wizards. Their you will find all their is to know about them.


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## OfRhosgobel (Feb 12, 2013)

Valandil said:


> I take Saruman's statement somewhat differently. I think perhaps the wizards/Istari used a staff to focus their power - but I don't think it was a source of their power, or that it increased their power. I don't think a wizard could wield more than one at a time.
> 
> Gandalf probably went through a few staffs in LOTR. I doubt Saruman allowed him to take his to the top of Orthanc - or gave it back upon his departure. And I doubt he recovered the one he was carrying before fighting the Balrog. So he had at least three through the course of the story.
> 
> I believe Saruman's statement is meant to imply that Gandalf wants the other wizards to be subject to him.



An interesting point about the wizards have many staves(or rods) and crafting new ones even, but you can't possibly know what their exact function was. To do so would only be speculation. Though I always assumed it did focus and enhance their powers.


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## Eledhwen (Feb 13, 2013)

OfRhosgobel said:


> An interesting point about the wizards have many staves(or rods) and crafting new ones even, but you can't possibly know what their exact function was. To do so would only be speculation. Though I always assumed it did focus and enhance their powers.


At the very least, the staff signified rank. Saruman's staff was broken when he was defeated. If it was merely a symbol of office, I don't believe Gandalf would have bothered; Saruman had already divorced himself from the White Council so had lost authority there. I presume, then, that the staff had uses more than as the walking stick that Gandalf claimed it was at Meduseld (In the gloom they heard the hiss of Wormtongue's voice: 'Did I not counsel you, lord, to forbid his staff? That fool, Háma, has betrayed us!'). Whether it focuses the wizard's power (like channelling static electricity) or augments it (like a step-up transformer), I do not think it likely that the staff itself generates power (e.g. it would be no use to Boromir) otherwise, like the One Ring, a wizard's staff would be desired by power hungry men and become a burden.


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## Odin (Feb 13, 2013)

Eledhwen said:


> At the very least, the staff signified rank. Saruman's staff was broken when he was defeated. If it was merely a symbol of office, I don't believe Gandalf would have bothered; Saruman had already divorced himself from the White Council so had lost authority there. I presume, then, that the staff had uses more than as the walking stick that Gandalf claimed it was at Meduseld (In the gloom they heard the hiss of Wormtongue's voice: 'Did I not counsel you, lord, to forbid his staff? That fool, Háma, has betrayed us!'). Whether it focuses the wizard's power (like channelling static electricity) or augments it (like a step-up transformer), I do not think it likely that the staff itself generates power (e.g. it would be no use to Boromir) otherwise, like the One Ring, a wizard's staff would be desired by power hungry men and become a burden.



I think the best explanation is the staff allows the wizard to channel his magic through it.

Think about Harry Potter and the wands there. A wizard in that universe has innate magic, but they usually need a wand to channel that magic through. That's probably what a staff is to an Istar.


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## OfRhosgobel (Feb 13, 2013)

Eledhwen said:


> At the very least, the staff signified rank. Saruman's staff was broken when he was defeated. If it was merely a symbol of office, I don't believe Gandalf would have bothered; Saruman had already divorced himself from the White Council so had lost authority there. I presume, then, that the staff had uses more than as the walking stick that Gandalf claimed it was at Meduseld (In the gloom they heard the hiss of Wormtongue's voice: 'Did I not counsel you, lord, to forbid his staff? That fool, Háma, has betrayed us!'). Whether it focuses the wizard's power (like channelling static electricity) or augments it (like a step-up transformer), I do not think it likely that the staff itself generates power (e.g. it would be no use to Boromir) otherwise, like the One Ring, a wizard's staff would be desired by power hungry men and become a burden.



A very good point about Gandalf at Meduseld. The door wardens were supposed to forbid Gandalf from entering with his staff because Grima obviously feared it(certainly some lore of the rods of the fives wizards was passed onto him from Saruman!). So we can at least conclude it was not just a walking stick :*up. I would lean on the idea of it focusing power, rather than generating as well. Certainly the Istari were more feared with their staves than without.


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## Valandil (Feb 14, 2013)

OTOH -Wormtongue may have been wrong about the importance of a wizard's staff. And the Istari may have been fine with allowing others to think their staffs were powerful or even helpful. Even Saruman would not have corrected Wormtongue in this, I think.


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## Bucky (Feb 14, 2013)

I've been reading this thread with _some_ interest ~ I'm not much on speculation as opposed to facts, but we have both mixed in here.

First, please DO NOT bring Harry Potter in ~ it's simply not the least bit relevant to this discussion on MIDDLE-EARTH.

Secondly, I just wanted to raise one thought that has not been brought up:

Yes, Gandalf breaks Saruman's staff, but, Gandalf clearly states Saruman has lost all his power _before_ doing this....

So, the staff must be more of a symbolic thing, yet one through which the wizards do seem to work their magic' at the same time throughout TLOR & The Hobbit too.

I hope that clears things up. :*rolleyes:


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