# Was Maeglin evil?



## Ithrynluin

Would you say Maeglin was an evil character overall? 

Did he consciously commit evil deeds?

Or was he more of a victim of his circumstances and/or a captive of his desires?


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## Starbrow

I wouldn't say he was totally evil. He was a mix of both good and evil, although he certainly did more than his share of evil acts.


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## Thorondor_

In Of Tuor and the fall of Gondolin it is said that : 


> ...and indeed desire for Idril and hatred for Tuor led Maeglin the easier to his treachery, most infamous in all the histories of the Elder Days


Moreover, his father was of the dark elves, of whom it was further said:


Author's note #7 for page 277 said:


> The 'Dark-elves', however, often were hostile, and even treacherous, in their dealings with the Sindar and Noldor; and if they fought, as they did when themselves assailed by the Orcs, they never took any open part in the War on the side of the Celbin. They were, it seems, filled with an inherited bitterness against the Eldar, whom they regarded as deserters of their kin, and in Beleriand this feeling was increased by envy (especially of the Amanyar), and by resentment of their lordliness. The belief of the Celbin that, at the least, they were weaker in resistance to the pressures or lies of Morgoth, if this grievance was concerned, may have been justified; but the only case recorded in the histories is that of Maeglin, the son of Eol.


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## YayGollum

To an extent, as a matter of course. I don't know of any Tolkien type character that was pure good or pure evil. Also, he certainly didn't do more than his share of evil. He did exactly his share of evil, just as the scary Eru dude intended. That creepy guy, hanging out in the Void, watching what all of those pre-programmed Ainur and elveses were doing, pretty much the same as watching an old movie that you directed.


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## Helcaraxë

Yup. Definitely one evil dude. Not completely bad of course, but no-one is in Tolkien. On the whole, he ranks high on the evilometer. Whatever psychological motivations he might have had don't hide that fact.

Yay, I wouldn't call the Ainur pre-programmed. Iluvatar created them but they've got free will.


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## Maeglin

No.

Ok so he was madly (to the point of being psychotic, big deal  ) in love with Idril, but she didn't love him back. That doesn't make him particularly evil. It made him more willing to betray Gondolin, but he was a mighty warrior for the kingdom in earlier wars, kicking lots of orc rear-end. Also, its not like he went looking for Morgoth and set up this big intricate plan. He just mined a little further then he was supposed to, probably just trying to get his mind off of Idril and the evil greedy Tuor, and he got captured. Now that is just plain bad luck, not evil. And then he was tortured for ohhh...lets be generous and say it was 5 years or so before he gave in, but he was offered a pretty juicy reward for just for telling Morgoth how to get into the city and on top of that he gets out of his little torture chamber or wherever he was being kept. Sounds like a good deal to me. A victim of his circumstances and perhaps didn't make all of the best choices? Certainly. But evil? I have to lean towards "no" on this one, even though my signature may suggest differently.


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## Varokhâr

Nice answer, YayGollum 

I'd say evil-ish, to an extent. He was no servant of Morgoth, but not much of a good guy, all in all. He was a mixture of good, evil, and circumstance; he made bad choices and also was a product of his environment and times.

He had a bad streak, sure, but not evil per-se.


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## Ingwë

I think he did evil deeds but he wasn't evil character. He loved Idril and he hated Tuor. But he didn't think about betraying Gondolin. I don't think he wanted to do it but he didn't have a choice and because of his hatred of Тuor he did it. If Idril loved him he would never betray the city. But he was insane. If you really love a woman you wouldn't do anything that can wound her.


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## YayGollum

I thought about leaving that Ainur bit out in my last post, Helcaraxe person, but didn't see it as incorrect and figured that it made the Eru dude look a bit scarier.  As far as I can tell, the Ainur types were just a bunch of singing robots who later went on to sort of rule creation. Sort of. As well as a bunch of singing robots led by Spirit Of Sock Puppet Manwe could rule.  They had their specialities, their obsessions, which were selected for them by the Eru dude. They thought only along the lines that they were equipped with, Mel being the most widely gifted, which is why he is the closest Ainur thing to human. Still didn't have free will, was just around to entertain Eru, make him look good in the grand scheme of things, but had the most ingenuity. Too bad the guy was only able to mess with other people's creations. Think of how much more interesting things could have been if Mel could give birth to every bit of creativity that popped into his brain.  

Ah, anyways, yes, the Maeglin dude = not so evil, look to blame the dude who designed him that way, for whatever reason.

Also, Yay for the Maeglin person, as well as, Hm... and ---> Why would your signature thing spout that?

Also, also, as a matter of course, Varokhar person. All of my answers are good.


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## Maeglin

YayGollum said:


> Also, Yay for the Maeglin person, as well as, Hm... and ---> Why would your signature thing spout that?:



Well my sig is a line directly from the very last sentence in the chapter from the Silmarillion, "Of Maeglin," and is referring to him.


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## YayGollum

Well, sure. I was mostly asking why someone who seems to be a bit more sympathetic to the character would choose a line that didn't show off something that wouldn't bring evil to the brains of the common folk. I guess that pointing out how he was a character not to be trifled with is a good thing, too, though.


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## Gil-Galad

The fact that his father was of the dark elves,as Thorodor_ pointed out,does not mean *per se* that he was evil.

I would say that the circumstances made him evil.He wouldn't have betrayed Gondolin,if Tuor hadn't "stolen" his love.Of,course Maeglin's feelings can't justify his actions,but still we can't just say "yup,he was evil".

I would say that the circumstances made him take the wrong path and make the wrong decisions.


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## Noldor_returned

Evil is in the eye of the beholder. Evil can mean cruel, unjust, wicked and various other synonyms.

What was the cause of Maeglin's actions? Jealousy, greed, anger. These things do not make a wicked person, but they may cause someone to do wicked things. Maeglin himself was not an evil person, but his actions caused him to do something evil. His thoughts were not malicious, and he merely acted out of lust and desire.

Or at least, that's the way I see it.


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## Grond

His actions from the beginning of his story reveal him to be have a dark personality and one that would be prone to explore the dark sides. I believe that evil was in his nature and was an inescapable trait placed there by Eru.

Cheers,

grond


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## Annaheru

Maeglin said:


> No.
> 
> Ok so he was madly (to the point of being psychotic, big deal  ) in love with Idril, but she didn't love him back. That doesn't make him particularly evil.
> And then he was tortured for ohhh...lets be generous and say it was 5 years or so before he gave in, but he was offered a pretty juicy reward for just for telling Morgoth how to get into the city and on top of that he gets out of his little torture chamber or wherever he was being kept.


 

two points if I may:

Maeglin's love for Idril was. . .odd. . . "The Eldar wedded not with kin so near, nor ever before had any desired to do so . . . For it seemed to her [Idril] a thing strange and crooked in him, as indeed the Eldar ever since have deemed it. . ." (Of Maeglin).
So, by Elvish standards, Maeglin is the first recorded pervert.

My second:

Maeglin wasn't tortured-- ". . .the torture werewith he was _threatened_ cowed his spirit. . ." (Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin, emphasis added)

Maeglin gave in before the pain started. He sold out. It would be easy to forgive him (he is facing Morgoth) except that Hurin had been in the same situation and defied Morgoth.


So my answer is Maeglin became evil. For none are evil in their beginning, therefore a character can only be judged by what they've done, and Maeglin did some bad sh--.


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## HLGStrider

When I started reading his story, I felt a great deal of pity for the fellow and felt he had a lot of potential. I'm doing all this from memory so correct me if I am wrong:

Product of a spirited elf woman basically kidnapped and raped by a tyranical monster. Bad start.

Longed to produce things such as his mother described in Gondolin. Leaning towards good.

Saw his father kill his mother and then watched in silence as the elves executed his father who died cursing him. Really bad start.

Fell in love with cousin. Strange. Cousin saw something dark in him. Bad sign. Cousin really can't be blamed in rejecting him, but it doesn't help the situation at all. 

Cousin finds human lover.

Now I see this as a turning point where Maeglin can either get over it and pursue other interests (such as his craftmanship) or sink into bitterness. Apparently he picked bitterness. Downhill from there.

So he was a mixed bag who chose the wrong path about midway through the story . .. with a lot of help from situations beyond his control. Because there are tons of characters in Tolkien who defeated worse to become heroes, I can't really coddle the character (oh, poor victim, couldn't help himself.), but I think he deserves some pity for what he went through. 

Always get an early intervention desire when I read about characters like this. 

If you want to take a character I find an interesting paralel from another book, there is the man from The Tale of Two Cities. Reminded me a lot of Maeglin in some ways, both had promise and had fallen in love with a woman who later fell in love with a man other than him. Sidney frittered his promise on drink. Maeglin frittered his on bitterness. When it came down to it and both were asked to make a sacrifice Maeglin refused to endure pain to save his country, Sidney agreed to lose his life to save his beloved's husband. 

Every good character starts out with a mixed bag and is given a point where they can chose to be one thing or another. Maeglin definitely had a more distinct chosing point, but I think that's all there is to it.​


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## YayGollum

Ugh. Sure, I am leaning away from the topic of this thread thing, but oh well. I have way more sympathy for Eol than I do for Maeglin. Argh! Why do so many hate poor Eol? Calling him a tyrannical monster? Neither, easily, I would write! He's just another introverted, anti-social, and misunderstood artist. A good friend of Dwarves, which pretty much always makes someone cool, within my book. Left Thingol's creepy little forest when the guy's wife decided to make an evil bubble of discrimination around it. Looks like his boycott didn't sway very many, but he didn't mind. He was plenty capable of taking care of himself. 

Until one day, when he got all twitterpated. Poor dude. Fell in love in exactly the way that Thingol and Melian, Beren and Luthien, and the evil Aragorn and Arwen did, except that his love was tragically unrequited. So many think that the way that those other characters fell in love was achingly romantic. Why do those humans not feel sorry for poor Eol, then? Just because he captured the lady and held her against her will for a really long time? 

Oh. Well, as I already wrote, he was very anti-social. Not so adept at the social arts. Didn't know that courting her parents for several years was a prerequisite. Didn't see much beauty in flowers. Chocolate hadn't been invented yet. You understand. Also, what mattered most to him ---> She was obviously Noldorish and surrounded by plenty of other representatives of that murderous race. He despised and probably feared Noldor types. A good reason to sneakily spirit the lady away from her travelling companions. 

Keeping her and the kid trapped was merely what he figured to be best. Unfortunate that the lady didn't have the sense to be too repulsed by her relatives to wish to go back, of course, but all he could do was attempt to be a good example. I saw no evidence that he was a horrible father, either. Was probably a decent teacher, taught his kid not to look down on Dwarves, stuff like that. Unfortunate that the kid was pure evil and that the lady could never stop whining about wishing for the superly pampered life she had back in Gondolin.


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## HLGStrider

YayGollum said:


> Just because he captured the lady and held her against her will for a really long time? .



That'd be the jist of it. Unrequainted love: Romantic. Kidnapping: not so romantic.


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## YayGollum

The gist of it, and ---> unrequited love, actually. Is the evil as well as sickeningly and incomprehensibly popular World Of Woodcraft (as I speak of it) affecting your spelling abilities? oh well.  I wasn't attempting to make the point that Eol was an especially romantic or unromantic character. I was attempting make the point that he could have been, at least by the standards that many readers of Tolkien type stories seem to have, and that those people should feel sorry for him. I hardly ever bump into anyone who feels sorry for him. Many merely think of him as The Dark elf, which makes them think that any other elves designated Dark must be pure evil. Poor stereotyped characters. oh well. Kidnapping someone who you accidentally as well as suddenly fell in love with from a bunch of elves that you think of as pure evil isn't tyrannical or monstrous, though. Sure, maybe a bit extreme and inconvenient and unfair and scary, but then, are those not good adjectives for many popular love stories? Ick.


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## HLGStrider

I think Yay should get himself kidnapped to see if he thinks it is any fun. . .

But I think it starts him out as the villian of the whole thing. His evil in kidnapping a woman created the evil of a son trapped between two parents who didn't like each other at all and basically used him as a weapon against each other (she didn't run away until she raised Maeglin to a point where he could aid her. He refused to name the son. She went behind his back and did it anyway. . . great home life for a kid.). Then he had the obvious inability to let go when his wife did finally leave up to the point of murdering trying to murder the son and killing the wife. He wasn't a victim. A victim would've been broken hearted to lose his wife and child because that is sad. A victim wouldn't have slain said wife. That puts him into freaky stalker type territory.


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## Inderjit S

Don't think Eol "kidnapped" her per se, he merely led her to his lair got her pregnant and forced her to stay there...by that logic many men are kidnappers  But really, at first Aredhel enjoyed her life with Eol and was "not unwilling" though their relationship eventually became homicidal, of course, it didn't start of too badly.


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## Snaga

I think its pretty obvious that Eol's relationship with Aredhel was not healthy. He was a control freak, and he ended up murdering her. Eol was definitely insane. If you want to call him evil will be whether or not you like to label people as evil - but its pretty uncontroversial to say his actions were.

The whole thing about Maeglin is that its a case of like father like son, no? He is clearly unbalanced too, and after his upbringing that's no big shock. His relationship with Idril is also unhealthy, but the circumstances and Idril's reaction are different with more extreme consequences. Eol kills one, Maeglin betrays the whole of Gondolin. I guess if you label Eol as evil, Maeglin has to take the rap too.

In fact, I consider Maeglin to be worse. Eol's act is done out of wrath, and while despicable is the kind of domestic violence that is common but a small scale crime. Maeglin's act is a treasonous war crime. I accept that he was broken by torture, but did others of the Eldar fall like that?


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## YayGollum

Yes, a few. Anyways, Yay for others helping me out. No, I don't think that being kidnapped would be especially fun. Sure, I would easily write that kidnapping random elves isn't especially nice. The intentions weren't evil, though. I already explained that he kidnapped her because he figured that Noldor types were evil. I guess that falling in love with the lady allowed him to think of her as a bit better than your average Noldor type. Yes, he was a control freak. Always an easy type to despise, I have noticed, which doesn't mean that they can't have really nice intentions. As to the evil of not naming his kid, um, didn't he? Wasn't he the guy who came up with the name Maeglin, which actually seems like a pretty complimentary name, to myself. He just didn't name the kid immediately, which I would guess to be some crazy custom. I read no evidence to make me figure that not naming the kid was an evil inaction. Nor did I read any evidence that he wasn't saddened by his wife and kid running away to live with a bunch of evil Noldor types. Sure, the book mostly stuck with him being a bit angry, which is understandable, since he always thought that he was doing what was best.


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## Inderjit S

I guess the thing with "evil" Elves is that they are much more interesting than the boring "good" ones-I mean where would the Silmarillion be without the proud and somewhat arrogant Noldor? Feanor, his sons, Fingolfin, Fingon, Turgon...heck all the descendants of Finwe seem to be proud and arrogant, with the exception of Finarfin (yawn!) and Orodreth (he took orders from THINGOL and was seems to be over-awed by Turin!) and, I guess, to a certain extent Finrod, though he was far from boring and unlike Orodreth and Finarfin had a bit of fire in his belly. I mean, honestly, who on earth wants to read about the Vanyar singing songs of reverence to Manwe and Varda everyday? Plus you must remember that the actions of the Feanorians and other Noldor were tainted by the curse, oath and war...even the Feanorians were not too bad before the shadow spread over the Noldor (ALL of the Noldor mind you)-I guess the history is somewhat tragic, but exciting and interesting nonetheless. 

But I think in terms of "evil Elves" Maeglin may have been a cut above the rest-he actually swore allegiance to Morgoth...


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## Ingwë

Of course noone wants to read about songs, beautiful places and dancing people. There are no authors that write that kind of books. There are no movies like that. 
I agree that harmony is boring but all people, the characters in all books and movies try to reach harmony. All people want peace. But there is something that throws their like into confusion and they have to pass many test to reach the harmony again. 
The books tell stories about the extraordinary people, the special people. So did Tolkien. 



> Nor did I read any evidence that he wasn't saddened by his wife and kid running away to live with a bunch of evil Noldor types.


Evil Noldor types? Well, evil or not, she wanted to go to her family. If he is a good husband and he loves her he will let her go. But as Snaga already mentioned, he was insane. Maybe it wasn't his fault, since he didn't contact the other world much. I also agree that Maeglin was like his father. Seems they're doomed to love and not to be loved  That made them (father and son) evil. 


> Sure, the book mostly stuck with him being a bit angry, which is understandable, since he always thought that he was doing what was best.


Usually people think what they do it the best. Few ones realise what they do is not good. If a thief steals something, he thinks that is the best for him - he takes something and he doesn't pay, he doesn't work. But sometimes what we do is not the best. Keeping Aredhel against her will certainly wasn't the best and it leads to dead.


Edit: sorry for the non Tolkien-related post. I haven't read the books for a while and I don't remeber the details.


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## YayGollum

How was that a non Tolkien-related post? It looks like you were writing about characters that the Tolkien dude came up with. oh well. You write that if poor Eol was actually a good husband and in love with that Aredhel lady, that would let her run off whenever she felt like it, merely to hang out in an idyllic lap of luxury while ignoring all of the horrifyingly evil things that Noldor types regularly do. Uh, huh. What else is on your list of things that good husbands must do? I have never heard of this part of the list, at least. From what I can tell, he was actually paying attention to one thing that I figure should go on such a list ---> Protecting her from overly violent types. Sure, maybe he wouldn't have thought so badly of the Noldor types if he was more of an elf of the world and knew more about them than stories where they kill off a bunch of Teleri type elves. But he wasn't. oh well. He was doing the right thing, as far as he knew. What was worse? Eol attempting to protect his wife and kid from bad influences, or Aredhel whining and manipulating her kid just to get back to being pampered?


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## Ingwë

Then Thingol and the other Elves are wrong if they're friends to the Noldor and only Eol is right? Interesting 



> What was worse? Eol attempting to protect his wife and kid from bad influences, or Aredhel whining and manipulating her kid just to get back to being pampered?


Eol attenpting to keep his wife against her will is worst than Aredhel whining


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## YayGollum

Answering your first question ---> No, not so interesting. I'm with Eol. Never liked Thingol or his pathetic Sindarish flock. But then, how friendly were they with Noldor types? Not especially, and probably for the same reason that Eol wasn't a large fan of the Noldor types.

To your second bit ---> Hey, man, come on. You totally didn't answer the question the way I wanted you to.  Fine. I'll edit the question ---> What's worse? ---> Eol grinding his teeth in aggravation at his wife's spoiled whining, being a control freak with good intentions, quietly as well as simply and unimposingly raising a family, and teaching his kid a useful trade and to be tolerant and appreciative of a weird race like Dwarves? Or ---> Turning a son against his father, being an annoying pappa's girl?, and, um, not even leaving a note informing poor Eol that they felt like running away from home (Oh! He'd have been worried sick!)?


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## Ingwë

> Answering your first question ---> No, not so interesting. I'm with Eol. Never liked Thingol or his pathetic Sindarish flock. But then, how friendly were they with Noldor types? Not especially, and probably for the same reason that Eol wasn't a large fan of the Noldor types.


But most of the Sindar are friends of thr Noldor anyway. If all people follow an idea it doesn't mean it is right, of course, and maybe Eol had good reason to live isolated. It is true that the Noldor brought disaster and destruction to Beleriand, but Morgoth had already settled in Middle earth, so the war was inevitable. The Elves cannot overthrow the Enemy while they're separated and the Sindar realised it. There is no good reason for them to argue or fight each other. So my opinion is they have to be friends and Noldor are not evil and Sindar are not stupid. But how friendly were the Noldor? - Not all of them were friendly. I would say they were arrogant. And I think Thingol is arrogant, too, but the reason you keep someone against his/her will cannot be that you don't like the others. 




> To your second bit ---> Hey, man, come on. You totally didn't answer the question the way I wanted you to. Fine. I'll edit the question ---> What's worse? ---> Eol grinding his teeth in aggravation at his wife's spoiled whining, being a control freak with good intentions, quietly as well as simply and unimposingly raising a family, and teaching his kid a useful trade and to be tolerant and appreciative of a weird race like Dwarves? Or ---> Turning a son against his father, being an annoying pappa's girl?, and, um, not even leaving a note informing poor Eol that they felt like running away from home (Oh! He'd have been worried sick!)?


The way you ask the question the answer is _Turning a son against his father, being an annoying pappa's girl?, and, um, not even leaving a note informing poor Eol that they felt like running away from home_. Certainly it is worse  
But I don't think that is true. She didn't turn Maeglin against his father. The life in Gondolin was better, living isolated is not good for a yound child, he needed other contacts. Otherwise he would turn to evil, but certainly not the way he did. The boy deserved to see more things than his hourse and the lands around. 
And about the note... Come on  She wanted to escape and probably she wanted to do this unnoticed


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## Grond

Ingwë said:


> But most of the Sindar are friends of thr Noldor anyway...



And of which people of the Sindar are you speaking??? Thingol despised and distrusted Feanor and his sons and had little use for Fingolfin or any of the others. All in all the Sindar and Noldor coexisted somewhat peacefully but I wouldn't say friendship existed between the two peoples.

Cheers,

grond


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## Ithrynluin

Grond said:


> And of which people of the Sindar are you speaking??? Thingol despised and distrusted Feanor and his sons and had little use for Fingolfin or any of the others. All in all the Sindar and Noldor coexisted somewhat peacefully but I wouldn't say friendship existed between the two peoples.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> grond



Wasn't there great friendship between Finwe and Elwe/Olwe?

And Finrod's dealings with Cirdan were more than amiable also. 

Sindarin and Noldorin Elves lived together in Hithlum. IIRC, both the Noldor and Sindar leaders swear oaths of friendship, and the Noldor even take up Sindarin to bring them closer to their Sindarin brethren.

The two peoples mingled under Turgon's rule in Nevrast and later went to Gondolin together. 

Therefore, I'd say there was indeed friendship between them, Thingol being the sole exception.


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## YayGollum

I agree that it would have made all kinds of sense for Noldorish as well as Sindarish types to get along all of the time. Why not? Too bad that it didn't happen often enough. Anyways, yes, Eol didn't like the Noldor types. He was thinking stereotypically. Yes, that is a bit evil, but the stereotype that he had pinned to them was rooted in sensible caution. At least he wasn't the sort to kill large groups of people who annoyed him.  

Also, how did Aredhel not turn Maeglin against his not-so-adept-at-social-rituals father? She might have had great reasons for doing something evil, but she still intentionally manipulated the kid. Maybe even thinking mostly of the kid's welfare. I don't know. Tolkien doesn't go into much detail on her intentions, from what I have read. I gots to point out that different elves have different tastes. 

You write that life in Gondolin (where, even if you aren't someone who's job requires him to work outside of the place and have to be plenty careful about secrecy, the Enemy might just catch you and mess with your brain, since he's always on the lookout for that hiding spot) is better than life at Eol's place. Certainly to the superly spoiled Aredhel. I'd need all kinds of parameters to decide on which place was somehow better. 

Is living isolated not good for a child? I am not an expert on child rearing. Most children raised in especially isolated places turn out to be evil? Hm. At this point, I wish that I was an amazing history expert, to point out the many popularly seen as great humans who grew up in mostly isolated spots. I see no evidence that the kid's old stomping grounds turned him evil. The only ones that I know that he hung out with were his parents, some servants, and some Dwarves, who are always great examples, known for being untaintable by evil.


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## Confusticated

Maybe some could understand the level of resentment and jealousy that Maeglin must have endured. But he attempted to kill a young child, and belonging to the one he was supposed to love. I am sorry but if anyone was ever evil it was him. Or if he was not evil, then was any elf or man? Then no, I think.


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## Noldor_returned

Yes, but he was tortured too. Are people born evil, or do they have evil thrust upon them? To his core, I do not think Maeglin was evil. I mean, look at people who go on shooting sprees- they often are the victim of hate and ignorance, and one day just snap (not every single time but often). Who is the evil one in such cases? The ones who made the people so twisted, or the ones who actually performed the deed?


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## Confusticated

I don't think he was born evil it all. I don't think he was evil until his love was rejected and this just devoured everything that was good inside of him until no good remained... and in the end I think he embraced his evilness, deciding to direct it at others instead of just letting it make him suffer any longer.


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## Mimzy

To an extent, i mean yeah he did horrible things, but he also had a horrible upbringing. i mean he was the product of rape!


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## Elf of cave

Socrates once said: "From the deepest desires often come the deadliest hate."

I think Maeglin is the embodiment of that quote.


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## Mimzy

I've noticed that Tolkien uses the pattern of Elves who experience parental bereavement or abuse becoming evil. Actually, the case of Eol and Aredhel is the only example of some certain kinds of 'human' evil Tolkien wrote about in the Elvish world. I think the whole situation was ultimately the result of Feanor's oath, but what Eol did was almost rape and that seems very uncommon in the Elvish society.

I'm sure the death of Maeglin's parents later eventually effed him up too. Even though Maeglin didn't care much for his father, he probably did naturally resent Turgon to some extent for executing him?

I would say yes, he was evil to some extent, as not everyone in his situation would have done the bad things he did. But I wouldn't say he was without love. I think he really did love Idril, though it was a selfish and pathological love.


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## panzer71

I believe he was evil. He betrayed an entire city to gain what he could not have.Maeglin may not have been born evil but niether was Melkor.


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## Prince of Cats

panzer71 said:


> Maeglin may not have been born evil but niether was Melkor.



Great Point! Welcome to the forum :*up


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## Bucky

He sure ended up doing some perty evil things. :*eek:


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## Eledhwen

Maeglin was not evil per se; but he made evil choices. He let his desires and disappointments hold sway over those choices. How much this resentment dwelt in him from birth, and how much it was learned as he grew, or generated by Tuor's arrival, I don't know.


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## Bard the Bowman

Everyone, has evil inside of them. Except maybe Eru. However, everyone else does, because we see that even the good guys do evil deeds. Turin does evil, Feanor does evil, Curufin does evil, Thingol does evil, and Maeglin does evil. However, its when these evil deeds consume the individual and evil becomes the controlling factor in his mind.

The question is, was Maeglin's intent evil? He had evil thoughts, and he performed evil. I wouldn't necessarily say that his betrayal of the location of Gondolin was evil, since he was tortured and people break under torture. But it was his continued betrayal and alliance with Melkor that finally tipped the scales over to his evil side. So you see, it started with his defiance of Turin after Tuor's usurpation, and then after the torture his malice increased greatly. That was the tipping point: when he was offered a deal. When he took the deal he gave in to his wild evil side, and was absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt, evil.


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## Maiden_of Harad

Annaheru said:


> two points if I may:
> 
> Maeglin's love for Idril was. . .odd. . . "The Eldar wedded not with kin so near, nor ever before had any desired to do so . . . For it seemed to her [Idril] a thing strange and crooked in him, as indeed the Eldar ever since have deemed it. . ." (Of Maeglin).
> So, by Elvish standards, Maeglin is the first recorded pervert.
> 
> My second:
> 
> Maeglin wasn't tortured-- ". . .the torture werewith he was _threatened_ cowed his spirit. . ." (Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin, emphasis added)
> 
> Maeglin gave in before the pain started. He sold out. It would be easy to forgive him (he is facing Morgoth) except that Hurin had been in the same situation and defied Morgoth.




I never realized what a weakling Maeglin was! And an elf too! To think that a mortal man should stand firm (Hurin, at that) but an elf couldn't?

Now back on topic...
...Of course he was evil! Not totally, but it so dominated his nature that he rightfully can be called so (Of couse I'm severe on him, being my leat favorite character in the entire history of ME). As to his merely being a puppet of Eru, he was not. Eru did not (I'm going off of Tolkien mythology and Catholic theology here, which I know influenced Tolkien's views on God and evil) create evil, he merely, due to his infinite knowledge, forsaw the evil that would come due to the misuse of free will, and planned his universe around that fact, so that even evil would further his plans for the world.

Well, that my take on it.


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## independent

I do not think Maeglin was evil by nature, not anymore than any other Elf. It would be his circumstances that made him so. Maeglin was the son of Eol but since he was cursed by his father on not coming with him and staying with his mother. Then after that a desire came to his heart. He wanted Idril but since Idril is a first cousin he was not allowed to marry her. This tore him apart but when Tour came jealousy aroused that a man marry and elf. That time he was captured by Morgoth’s spies and he was held captive until he came to Melkor’s hall in Thangorodrim.


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## Eledhwen

He was ruthless, treacherous, and prepared to sell the Gondolin and its people to gain what Morgoth could offer him. Melkor could be very persuasive and Maeglin felt very aggrieved; but unlike Fëanor, who was the first Elf to slay his own kind, Maeglin allied himself willingly with Morgoth against the king who saved his life, adopted him and raised him as a prince. He didn't even repent when he realised there would be no kingdom to gain, and fought against Tuor as the city burned.


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## Rutheaserce

I'd say Maeglin is just as 'evil' as Fëanor, but perhaps a bit more so (because Fëanor rejected Melkor to his face, that little ball of fire) because he didn't seem to do as much to resist. But (unless someone has already pointed this out, sorry if you have!) because he was _directly_ persuaded by Melkor, and he had already been weakened (or at least that's how I see it) by both his parents' deaths. But he was not evil from the beginning, just like nearly all "evil" characters (I would argue that even Melkor was not evil at all when he was first brought into existence) in the Silmarillion. And while his feelings for Idril were a bit... uh... gross, I kind of thought of it in a way similar to the Tempest (which I haven't read in a while, so I don't remember the names. At all.) Maeglin was basically isolated from society, and I wouldn't be surprised if the only woman he ever saw was his mother (and possibly dwarf women, which I'm sure he wasn't really into) until he went to Gondolin. So it may have been one of those impulsive obsessions... but that's still weird.


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## Matthew Bailey

Noldor_returned said:


> Evil is in the eye of the beholder. Evil can mean cruel, unjust, wicked and various other synonyms.
> 
> What was the cause of Maeglin's actions? Jealousy, greed, anger. These things do not make a wicked person, but they may cause someone to do wicked things. Maeglin himself was not an evil person, but his actions caused him to do something evil. His thoughts were not malicious, and he merely acted out of lust and desire.
> 
> Or at least, that's the way I see it.




Uhmm....

In Middle-earth, _Evil_ is most definitely not "in the Eye of the beholder."

Evil and Good (and Light and Dark) in Middle-earth are tangible, real things.

Manichean Dualism is true in Middle-earth.

This means that you can literally have a "handful of _Pure Evil_." You can put it in your pocket. You can bake a cake with it. You can sprinkle it on toast.

The same is true of "Good," and "Light" and "Dark."

They had actual vats of "Light" that they gathered from the Two Trees in Valinorë.

Ungoliantë spun actual webs of "Darkness," and the fog created wasn't just so think that it blocked light, but rather it was an "Anti-Light." It was tangible "stuff" that was _Darkness Itself.
_
Tom Shippey discusses this in _The Road to Middle-earth_, where he discusses the problematic nature of Manichean Dualism to a Catholic Theology, and to Tolkien, yet for a pagan mythology, and for Anglo-Saxon and Norse Myth, Manichean Dualism was a very real thing within those myths.

In plain moral/ethical terms of Tolkien's Theological beliefs, Maeglin was not "Evil," he was Sinful. He was Covetous, and Lusted after Idril.

And, due to the Metaphysics of Middle-earth, this "corrupted" Maeglin (allowed "Evil" to work through him).

In _Morgoth's Ring_ (and _The Letters of JRRT_) , Tolkien and CJRT (Christopher) both explain that Morgoth's rebellion caused his power to be diffused throughout the substance of Ëa and Arda.

Literally the Universe itself was poisoned by Morgoth. Tolkien limited this poisoning to Arda, as the Ainulindalë was really just specific to Arda, and not to all of Ëa, but simply Arda having been diffused with the Evil Substance of Morgoth is enough to cause any person to have that Evil corrupt them.

Remember that Corruption is a major Theme of Tolkien's within his work on Middle-earth.

Corruption is the major theme of the Abrahamic Faiths as well: That the Rebellion of Lucifer/Satan poisoned Creation. Although the degree to which this theme is present in any one sect within the Abrahamic Traditions varies not just between the sect, but within the person as well.

Given this, Maeglin was hampered by not having a sufficiently grounded Foundation because of the hatred of his father, Eol, for the Noldorin, and Mankind. This nurtured the seed of Evil within Maeglin, which may or may-not have taken root, and possibly planted other seeds of Evil as well.

And being a "Dark Elf" (Moriquendi), Maeglin did not have the benefit of having lived in Valinorë (a _Holy Land_), where he would have been exposed to the _Light of the Two Trees_.

Having lived thus, most of the Noldor were thus especially armored against Corruption by having been touched by the "Light of Creation" from the Two Trees (something not tainted by Morgoth). Not all Noldor were equally affected by that Light, and the Sons of Feanor themselves did great damage to themselves with their _Oath_. It caused that Light to fail within them, where others who nurtured it would have been more protected against Corruption.

So.... Magellan simply had been dealt a raw deal by both Fate and his own choices that led him down the wrong path.

MB


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## Ingolmin

We can't say that Maeglin was evil. His move was indeed misguided when he stood with Turgon and openly opposed his father Eol. But still a shadow lay upon him such as the Doom of Mandos lay upon the Noldor and so Idril hated him the more since he betrayed his own father's kin. He wasn't evil before but had become afterwards as the Fall of Gondolin drew near.


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## Matthew Bailey

In Tolkien's writing, he uses the term "Shadow" to refer to _"Evil."
_
That is why Morgoth and Sauron was referred to as _The Shadow_. The full term is the "Shadow of Evil."

Maeglin had a choice. He could have chosen between the Right Thing, and "Good," or the Wrong Thing, and thus "Evil."

Maeglin chose "Evil."

This is the core of Catholic, and most Christian beliefs: That Evil is a choice. You know.... That whole thing about "Free Will" and all.

In Middle-earth, this is complicated by the existence of a Manichaean Evil in the world. So in that sense Maeglin was not _Pure Evil_ as Morgoth had become, and as had elements of Arda Marred.

MB


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## Ingolmin

Well, friend. But see what I have given in the post, the last sentence. I say that he indeed became evil when the Fall of Gondolin drew near. Though I accept what you said about being evil. Thank you, friend.
No need for waking up late at night to answer my question. I am a young loremaster and claim that I am an heir of Elrond Halfelven.


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## PaigeSinclaire88

I don't think he was evil in the modern sense of the word, an although he had done evil deeds I do think to an extent he was a victim of circumstances which put him in situations that he acted as he did. 

Now that being said, someone can be good and do evil things for the right reasons. And people can do good things for the wrong reasons. That's life and the saying "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" I find to be true. And sadly I think Meaglin was a victim of circumstance. It was beyond evil for him to use his as a weapon, as a child of divorce I've seen my brother, sister and I being used as a weapon and that is wrong no matter how badly someone tries to defend it. His evil attempts though I think were from being broken to an extent. Only a broken soul or lost soul would try to kill those he claims to love. In that instance he reminds me of my ex, an my best friends soon to be ex husband. After he abused me, after joining the military we broke up. We were high school sweetheart's well its a long story he ended up introducing me to my now husband. Anyways when I wouldn't take him back he married and had children with children with my best friend of ten years... Well when she began the divorce process and kicked him out he kidnapped their two children taking them out of state and threatened to kill her if she didn't take him back. We arent talking right now so idk if she did but last I heard she hadn't taken him back. Well, now he's claiming in court hes been abused by his mother (who is evil btw and it wouldnt surprise me) but I think mitigating circumstances do matter. It's why in court trials a persons past always comes up. Now I'm not saying that it justifies abusing others or hurting others but it def adds to the psychology of the person doing the wrong. 

I said all that to say that I only think Meaglin is evil to an extent because of the circumstances he was in. Even with my ex that beat me...and did worse than just that I think I could find it in my heart to forgive IF in fact he was abused by his mother.


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## Kata

Per se, Maeglin was not evil, he is a victim of circumstances - he was raised by a controlling father and an irresponsible mother - I've read a lot of people judging Eol, but what about Aredhel - she found herself in a loveless marriage because of her lies - when she got bored of Gondolin, she lied to her brother about her destination - and she was extremely selfish - if she was captured and tortured, she would have been the one to betray the location of the hidden city. In addition, she was arrogant and overly self-confident when she went riding - and to be honest, Tolkien said EXPLICITLY that she was not against the idea of staying with Eol in his forest. Her problem was that she gets bored easily and is totally irresponsible and selfish, not to mention that she tells lies all the time.

Eol's problem was his controlling nature, his lack of trust in his own kind, his naivety when it comes to the matters of love and female psychology, vanity (he was sooo humiliated after visiting one of Feanor's sons after his family fled from him) and isolationism. In general, when Tolkien describes Elves in his works I always have a feeling that there is something missing - in terms of letting their emotions show - there is always something amiss when it comes to their emotional responses - I think human characters are much better developed (intentionally?)... 

Maeglin grew up in a home which was full of suppressed resentment, lies and deceptions, cruelty (attributable to both his parents, not just Eol), isolated from other Elves and exposed to emotions and interactions in Gondolin he had no capacity of handling - his defenses were weakened, his moral frame already cracked - Morgoth had an easy task here... With better upbringing and more social interaction, Maeglin would have been a normal, well-rounded person...


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## OfRhosgobel

Ithrynluin said:


> Would you say Maeglin was an evil character overall?
> 
> Did he consciously commit evil deeds?
> 
> Or was he more of a victim of his circumstances and/or a captive of his desires?



He committed evil deeds, which in the traditional sense would make him evil. He was full of vices and he let them control him. In other words.. I'm glad they sent him over the wall, lol.


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## Phuc Do

He is a bad guy.


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