# Why could Elves Of The First Age Fight and Kill Balrogs And Elves Of The Second And Third Ages Could Not



## John (Aug 23, 2021)

Why Could Elves Of The First Age Of Middle Earth Fight And Kill Balrogs And Elves Of The Third Age like Legolas Could Not?


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## Alcuin (Aug 24, 2021)

Ecthelion of Gondolin, who killed Gothmog Lord of Balrogs, was (almost certainly) from Valinor. Fëanor, who fought several Balrogs at once in the first encounter with Morgoth’s forces in Middle-earth, was also an Elf of Valinor. Glorfindel overthrew a Balrog in the Crissaegrim: he was an Elf of Valinor. (At least one version of the story of Tuor claims he also killed a Balrog during the fall of Gondolin, and Glorfindel killed others alongside him.) All these Elves were born and grew up in Eldamar in Valinor, were renowned warriors even among the Noldor, and their defeat of a Balrog was accorded among the greatest feats of martial prowess among Men and Elves. 

Gandalf sacrificed himself to preserve the lives of Aragorn, true King of the Númenóreans, and Boromir, Heir of the Steward of Gondor. We cannot be certain they could not defeat the Balrog, but on the narrow Bridge of Khazad-dûm, given the stakes at play, Gandalf was taking no chances. They were indeed very foolish as Gandalf observed, but then again, neither of them understood what they were facing.


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## Aldarion (Aug 24, 2021)

Two reasons:
1) Elves of the First Age were far more powerful than in the Third Age, in keeping with general theme of decay in the Legendarium.
2) Balrogs in Silmarillion and Balrog in Lord of the Rings represent two different conceptions of Balrogs ("hordes of elite mooks" vs "seven hyper-powerful corrupted Maiar").


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## Elthir (Aug 24, 2021)

A cornered chicken "could" fight a Balrog  . . .  just sayin'

Anyway I've read everything Tolkien published and don't recall any Elves defeating any Balrogs. And in a very late text Tolkien wrote that Glorfindel fought with a Balrog but changed the word Balrog to Demon.

Why would he bother to do that? To alliterate better with Gondolin? Come on!

And as for Ecthelion, I've already posted every reference to him from HME (and beyond), and have yet to receive a single dime for my efforts.


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## Eldarinwe (Oct 28, 2021)

Coming very late to this discussion, I'll probably be talking only to spiderwebs and dusty tomes, but still I'm fascinated by this question. I agree with Aldarion and Elthir, and would add that Gothmog's flames being quenshed in the fountain of Gondolin does not make Ecthelion an incredibly powerful warrior in my opinion. It's more of a cheat weapon being pulled, the sacred fountain of Gondolin. While Gandalf vs Durin's bane was a fair fight, Gothmog vs Ecthelion was more like Gothmog stupidly fighting next to Balrog Kryptonite and falling.


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## 1stvermont (Oct 28, 2021)

John said:


> Why Could Elves Of The First Age Of Middle Earth Fight And Kill Balrogs And Elves Of The Third Age like Legolas Could Not?



Who ever said Galadriel or Elrond could not?


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## Eldarinwe (Oct 28, 2021)

1stvermont said:


> Who ever said Galadriel or Elrond could not


True. We do know however that silvan elves fled this "nameless terror".


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## m4r35n357 (Oct 28, 2021)

Eldarinwe said:


> True. We do know however that silvan elves fled this "nameless terror".


Well, they had never _seen_ one defeated, so that just makes sense


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## Ron Simpson (Nov 11, 2021)

Alcuin said:


> Ecthelion of Gondolin, who killed Gothmog Lord of Balrogs, was (almost certainly) from Valinor.


I need to find the reference, but the gist was this: the only Elves that managed to defeat Balrogs were those who had seen the light of the trees in Valinor. The only man reputed to have defeated a Balrog was Tuor (in the Fall of Gondolin) and he had been granted special dispensation from Ulmo the Vala (Lord of Waters)



Elthir said:


> Anyway I've read everything Tolkien published and don't recall any Elves defeating any Balrogs. And in a very late text Tolkien wrote that Glorfindel fought with a Balrog but changed the word Balrog to Demon.


I am curious as to why you say this. What about "The Fall of Gondolin" ? The recounting of the final battle references Balrogs frequently. One excerpt reads as follows: "of those demons of power, Tuor slew five and Ecthelion 3 ..... "


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## ZehnWaters (Nov 12, 2021)

Ron Simpson said:


> I need to find the reference, but the gist was this: the only Elves that managed to defeat Balrogs were those who had seen the light of the trees in Valinor. The only man reputed to have defeated a Balrog was Tuor (in the Fall of Gondolin) and he had been granted special dispensation from Ulmo the Vala (Lord of Waters)
> 
> 
> I am curious as to why you say this. What about "The Fall of Gondolin" ? The recounting of the final battle references Balrogs frequently. One excerpt reads as follows: "of those demons of power, Tuor slew five and Ecthelion 3 ..... "


It seems that Tolkien was walking back just how many Balrogs there were. In the original writing of The Fall of Gondolin there were many and they seemed of much lesser power. I think Ecthelion and Glorfindel slaying Balrogs makes sense in their contexts (as Gothmog had just finished fighting a protracted battle and was subsequently plunged into water after being impaled on a spiked helmet, and Glorfindel seems to have been lucky enough knock one off of a cliff (where are your wings now?!)). Both used their environment to their advantage in their fight (Gandalf did likewise).


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## Elthir (Nov 12, 2021)

Ron Simpson said:


> I am curious as to why you say this. What about "The Fall of Gondolin"? The recounting of the final battle references Balrogs frequently. One excerpt reads as follows: "of those demons of power, Tuor slew five and Ecthelion 3 ..... "



That was a bit tongue-in-cheek as the (my) emphasis (first sentence) was everything Tolkien himself _published_. The second sentence is also tongue-in-cheek, but refers to a late Glorfindel text -- a text which also includes a Tolkien-written note:: _"The duel of Glorfindel and the Demon may need revision."_

In any case, this very early version of _The Fall of Gondolin_ does not contain any "Balrogs" as Tolkien would envision them decades later. *"The early conception of the Balrogs makes them less terrible, and certainly more destructible, than they afterwards became: they existed in hundreds and were slain by Tuor and the Gondothlim in large numbers."* Christopher Tolkien, commentary,
The Fall of Gondolin, The Book of Lost Tales II

There's also the question of Balrog numbers, as, whatever JRRT might have finally decided here,
there is at least written evidence that he mused about making the number of Balrogs (ever existing)
as low as 3, or at most 7.

Tolkien's early 1950s update of _The Fall of Gondolin_ (seen in _Unfinished Tales_) did not get very far, but we do find an interesting description of the spike on Ecthelion's helm!

Hmm. A spike with Gothmog's "name on it" (I'm guessing) __


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## ZehnWaters (Nov 12, 2021)

Elthir said:


> There's also the question of Balrog numbers, as, whatever JRRT might have finally decided here,
> there is at least written evidence that he mused about making the number of Balrogs (ever existing)
> as low as 3, or at most 7.


I still dislike how much lower this number got. I thought there were many Maiar. He only ended up with 4-8? How did they ever frighten the good Ainur into leaving them be? Were there more and they were simply destroyed over time (say, when Utumno was destroyed)?


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## Elthir (Nov 12, 2021)

I might have lowered the number after the battle of Utumno -- that is, have a number of Balrogs destroyed here, leaving this "3 or at most 7" to be the count after that.

The interesting thing there is, it's concerning the battle of Utumno where Tolkien actually writes this marginal note (3 or at most 7 ever existing)! And where, in seeming reflection of this, he changed
_"host of Balrogs"_ to_ "his Balrogs"_ in section 50, Annals of Aman.

I'm not sure Tolkien was going to publish an exact number in any case. But what do I know.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Nov 12, 2021)

There was also, IIRC, a rumination at some point on the possibility that some of the orcs were lesser Maiar.

But don't quote me on that -- admittedly, my "R" is a bit weak. 😁


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## ZehnWaters (Nov 12, 2021)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> There was also, IIRC, a rumination at some point on the possibility of some of the orcs were lesser Maiar.
> 
> But don't quote me on that -- admittedly, my "R" is a bit weak. 😁


I know there was mention of Boldog or Boldogs, a Maia or Maiar in "orc-shape". I actually subscribe to the idea that they're a mongrel race of twisted elves, men, and orc-shape Maiar. It explains how they got their appearance and why they're mortal.


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## Elthir (Nov 12, 2021)

True SeS!

In the "ork texts" of _Myths Transformed_, the Ork-formed Maiar appear in texts (plural) where the origin of the orks themselves -- the main orks -- varies.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Nov 12, 2021)

Ahah -- good to know my "R" isn't completely gone. Thanks!


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## Goku da Silva (Nov 20, 2021)

Just because two of them did (Glorfindel and Ectelion) it doesn't mean most of them could (Remember Fëanor and Fingon?). About the second and third ages, well... there were not Balrogs around fighting for Sauron to put this theory to the test.


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## m4r35n357 (Nov 20, 2021)

ZehnWaters said:


> I still dislike how much lower this number got. I thought there were many Maiar. He only ended up with 4-8? How did they ever frighten the good Ainur into leaving them be? Were there more and they were simply destroyed over time (say, when Utumno was destroyed)?


You might know this, but as recently as the _Grey Annals_ (c. 1951, so after LotR was sent away for publication), there were "Balrogs a thousand" at the _Nirnaeth_. Presumably there would have been large numbers at Gondolin and the War of Wrath too, had he got that far.


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## Elthir (Nov 20, 2021)

Yes, the marginal note (3 or at most 7 Balrogs ever existing), and the revision of "host" (to "his") appear to be part of a *later 1950s* decision, which time frame would arguably mean that the updated 
_Fall of Gondolin_ (Unfinished Tales) was still to include great numbers.

There's also the issue of "surviving references" to large numbers, although exactly *why* they survived is hard to answer. So far I've counted four surviving references (to many Balrogs). Here they are -- followed by the alterations made to _The [constructed] Silmarillion_ by Christopher Tolkien:


*1:* *"Wherefore each embassy came with greater force than was agreed, but Morgoth sent the greater, and they were Balrogs. Maidros was ambushed..."* Of The Siege of Angband (Quenta Silmarillion) *[]* *"... but Morgoth sent the more, and there were Balrogs." *Of The Return of the Noldor (The Silmarillion)

*2:* *"Sauron came against Orodreth, the warden of the tower, with a host of Balrogs."* Of the Ruin of Beleriand And the Fall of Fingolfin (Quenta Silmarillion) *[]* *"... named Gorthaur, came against Orodreth, the warden of the tower upon Tol Sirion."* Of The Ruin Of Beleriand (The Silmarillion)

*3:* *"There came wolves and serpents, and there came Balrogs one thousand,..."* Of the Fourth Battle: Nírnaith Arnediad (Quenta Silmarillion) *[]* *"There came wolves and wolfriders, and there came Balrogs, and dragons..."* Of The Fifth Battle (The Silmarillion)

*[1* This description (from the QS tradition) survived into LQS despite a number of other post _Lord of the Rings _revisions to this chapter. *2* The second example (Orodreth and etc) also was not revised -- with Tolkien even altering §143 of the chapter, but not the "host" of Balrogs passage. *3* The third example "survived" as well, but noting CJRT's description under _The Last Chapters Of The Quenta Silmarillion_, it looks like JRRT never really got around to _truly_ revising this chapter in any case.*]

4.* The Grey Annals contains *"Balrogs a thousand"* §230, but nothing is noted as to any changes in the later 1950s.


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## m4r35n357 (Nov 21, 2021)

In the Quenta SIlmarillion War of Wrath:


> The Balrogs were destroyed, save some few that hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth.


If there were only a few to start with, and they were destroyed (apart from a few), that makes litttle sense. Circumstantial but there it is. In the Later Annals of Beleriand:


> The Balrogs were utterly destroyed.


also makes little sense if there were only a few to begin with (because at least one clearly survived) _unless_ there were a lot to begin with and it is a broad "arm-waving" before-after comparison.


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## Elthir (Nov 21, 2021)

Well, one assumes that when a given conception slash number of rogs had been definitively landed on, the necessary revisions (or not) would then be made to all the texts concerned, in order to make sense.

And while Tolkien wrote actual numbers in the marginal note, it's not a given *(not that anyone said it was)* that the tales themselves were going to reveal a specific number.


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## ZehnWaters (Nov 29, 2021)

Elthir said:


> Well, one assumes that when a given conception slash number of rogs had been definitively landed on, the necessary revisions (or not) would then be made to all the texts concerned, in order to make sense.
> 
> And while Tolkien wrote actual numbers in the marginal note, it's not a given *(not that anyone said it was)* that the tales themselves were going to reveal a specific number.


So besides Sauron, the Balrogs, and potentially Boldogs, were there ever implied to be other kinds of Maiar in Morgoth's service? We know Ossë was for a while. Do we think others might have been seduced? We know Arien WASN'T so clearly they could leave the hosts they were most like.


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## m4r35n357 (Nov 30, 2021)

ZehnWaters said:


> So besides Sauron, the Balrogs, and potentially Boldogs, were there ever implied to be other kinds of Maiar in Morgoth's service? We know Ossë was for a while. Do we think others might have been seduced? We know Arien WASN'T so clearly they could leave the hosts they were most like.


If you allow Valar (& the Lost Tales), those meat-headed funsters Makar & Measse seem to have gone missing from Valinor . . .



> But in those days ere the closing of Valinor did these twain fare mostly about the earth and were often far from the land, for they loved the unbridled turmoils which Melko roused throughout the world


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## HALETH✒🗡 (Dec 7, 2021)

The situation with dragons is similar. Smaugs doesn't look so awful in comparison with dragons of the earlier period.


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## wisnoskij (Dec 7, 2021)

ZehnWaters said:


> So besides Sauron, the Balrogs, and potentially Boldogs, were there ever implied to be other kinds of Maiar in Morgoth's service? We know Ossë was for a while. Do we think others might have been seduced? We know Arien WASN'T so clearly they could leave the hosts they were most like.


I think it is mostly implication. Clearly the host of the Valar was not just 20 guys. The war for the sake of the elves were not just 20 guys fighting 10 guys. I think we can argue if the host has 10 million maiar or 1000 but Tolkien would not describe epic wars happening when it was just a couple dozen combatants.




HALETH✒🗡 said:


> The situation with dragons is similar. Smaugs doesn't look so awful in comparison with dragons of the earlier period.


I don't think that is canon. People has extrapolated AtBs size by saying, he smote 3 mountains, so he must be bigger than 3 mountains. He was clearly big, but I doubt his wings could of spanned Australia.


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## 1stvermont (Dec 7, 2021)

HALETH✒🗡 said:


> View attachment 10911The situation with dragons is similar. Smaugs doesn't look so awful in comparison with dragons of the earlier period.




I never thought the size of dragons was as great as this depiction suggests. I argued as such somewhere...... oh in my upcoming book.


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## m4r35n357 (Dec 7, 2021)

wisnoskij said:


> I think it is mostly implication. Clearly the host of the Valar was not just 20 guys. The war for the sake of the elves were not just 20 guys fighting 10 guys. I think we can argue if the host has 10 million maiar or 1000 but Tolkien would not describe epic wars happening when it was just a couple dozen combatants.


On top of that, from the Later Annals of Beleriand, entry 550 (HoME 5):



> This war lasted fifty years from the landing of Fionwe.


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## ZehnWaters (Dec 7, 2021)

wisnoskij said:


> I don't think that is canon. People has extrapolated AtBs size by saying, he smote 3 mountains, so he must be bigger than 3 mountains. He was clearly big, but I doubt his wings could of spanned Australia.


I am rather curious what size he IS supposed to be considering the damage he caused.


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## wisnoskij (Dec 7, 2021)

ZehnWaters said:


> I am rather curious what size he IS supposed to be considering the damage he caused.


I am not entirely certain that Tolkien necessarily would of been completly constrained by practicality. One might says he must be small enough that eagle claws and swords or spears could hurt and reach vital organs, but I am not convinced that tolkien when writing myths would of followed simple practicalities like that; But still I would guess that we he was probably imagined by Tolkien as being just about as big as these eagles and elves could theoretically kill it but stretching this believability somewhat. IT has been said that clearly he must of been bigger than Smaug, but all we know is that he was "greater" than Smaug not bigger. Also, it is notable that he is only the greatest flying dragon, so even if we associate greatness with size he is not necessarily bigger than the land drakes.


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