# Did Sauron and/or Gandalf know what would happen if the Ring was destroyed?



## Ray Patterson (Apr 8, 2011)

In "Shadow of the Past" Gandalf says that Sauron thought the Ring had been destroyed after Isildur took it. And that only after Bilbo got the Ring he realised that no, it in fact still existed.

But when the Ring is destroyed, Sauron became a faint spirit, and the foundations of Barad-Dur crumbled. Did Sauron not expect this would happen? Because if he did know the end of the Ring would mean the end of his own power, then he would know the Ring wasn't destroyed simply because he still could exercise power.

And if he didn't know, does that mean that Gandalf didn't know either? As he himself clearly admits the success of the quest was always a fool's hope. And indeed the way in which it is completed confirms that. However, the success of it being a fool's hope is still less desperate than not even knowing the outcome of the destruction of the Ring.

(hm. Not sure if this is a good first post. Please don't flame me too hard... just curious :*rolleyes


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## Erestor Arcamen (Apr 8, 2011)

I think that it wasn't possible for Sauron to even think about what would happen if the Ring were destroyed. He knew the greed of men and knew that if any man bore the ring that he would never be able to destroy it and then when the Ringwraiths go out again they'd just have to find that man who had the Ring and capture it. Also, I like this quote:



> "That we should try to destroy the Ring itself has not yet entered into his darkest dream. In which no doubt you will see our good fortune and our hope." - Gandalf



So again, for anyone to even think about destroying the Ring wasn't in his thoughts whatsoever so he was incapable of thinking of this. The thought never even crossed his mind that there would be any man capable of giving up that much power/wealth/dominion. Now Hobbits, he didn't know much about, did he? :*D


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## Starbrow (Apr 10, 2011)

I thought that Sauron assumed the ring was lost in the Anduin and would not be retrievable.


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## Parsifal (Apr 12, 2011)

This is somewhat tied to another question:
Was Sauron destroyed because his power vanished with the Ring, or was he destroyed because Barad-Dur collapsed while he was inside?

Ofcours, Barad Dur (and Dol Guldur as well, probably, for only after the destruction of The Ring could Galadriel take it down) was held up by its fundaments being tied to the Ring. But how about the Towers of Teeth, weren't they build by the Gondorians?


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## Ray Patterson (Apr 17, 2011)

I'll add the direct quote that made me ask the question in the first place:



> And this is the dreadful chance, Frodo. He believed that the One had perished; that the Elves had destroyed it, as should have been done. But he knows now that it has _not_ perished, that it has been found. So he is seeking it, seeking it, and all his thought is bent on it. It is his great hope and our great fear.



This seems to contradict Erestor's quote rather directly.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Apr 17, 2011)

I don't think it contradicts my quote. My quote is basically saying that since he knew that it wasn't destroyed and obviously it was the age of men, he didn't think there was a man alive that could destroy the ring. If the elves, pure and mighty and valiant as they were couldn't destroy it, then he knew there was no way possible that a man of any kindred or valor could possibly not be tempted to keep the ring for themselves and thus it had not entered into his darkest dreams.


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## Ray Patterson (Apr 18, 2011)

That seems a stretch... if Gandalf by "we" means "non-Elves". But possible. In that case however, your quote is irrelevant to the question. The fact remains that according to Gandalf, before Sauron found Gollum he believed the Elves had destroyed the One Ring.


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## baragund (Apr 20, 2011)

Good question, Ray! How could Sauron not know whether something that was such a large part of _him_ was destroyed? It's kind of like you or I not knowing whether our heart has stopped beating. What's more, if the One was really destroyed, then the Nine, the Seven and even the Three would have lost their power. No more Nazgul, no more of Durin's folk driving themselves insane with their obsession with wealth, no more magical qualities associated with the Grey Havens, Rivendell or Lothlorien...

I don't have my books handy so I can't review the sections where the quotes were taken to get better insight on the larger context. I'll have to look into it...


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## Erestor Arcamen (Apr 29, 2011)

I found another quote from ROTK that proves that Gandalf did know, 



> "If it is destroyed, then he will fall, and his fall will be so low that none can foresee his arising ever again. For he will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in his beginning, and all that was made or begun with that power will crumble, and he will be maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape. And so a great evil of this world will be removed."



That proves Gandalf did know. And from the quote I posted above before this, that one just supports that Sauron just didn't believe it was possible for any man to possibly destroy the Ring so there was no point worrying about whether it would be destroyed or not. Most likely a man would be the one to find the Ring such as Isildor and men were weak and very gullible. Sauron had proof the way the Nazgul took their rings without question and were bent to his will, he thought the same would easily happen with the Ring of Power.


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