# The Greater Capacity for Hate?



## Ancalagon (May 27, 2002)

*The greater capacity to hate!*

Orcs we can assume are the twisted form of both Men and Elves from the information we glean from 'The Silmarillion'. However, what I wonder is which of the races held the greatest capacity to hate the other?

Did Orcs despise the races of Men and Elves because deep down they knew that once they belonged to these carefree and happier races? Do they hate the races of what amount to their forefathers because they have been mutilated and corrupted beyond repair?

Do Elves and Men feel more of a sense of revulsion towards Orcs because deep down they know that these creatures are the darkest nightmares of their own personalities? Are there Orc traits in every Man and Elf alike?

Who of these hold the greatest capacity to hate the other? Who of these has the most sound reason to loathe his opposite number?

Discuss.


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## ReadWryt (May 28, 2002)

I suspect that Orcs hate anything that isn't an Orc! They seemed to have a grand time living in the mountains in "The Hobbit", keeping to themselves and not mounting war parties to kill off everything else...When faced with a decision to square off with Saruman or Sauron or Men and Elves though, I think that just about anyone with the braincells to do the math would choose to go after the Men and Elves.


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## Walter (May 28, 2002)

Orcs seem to be the race of Arda, that is most capable of hatred. I don't agree with RW, I think they even hate themselves - as seen in the events in the Tower of Cirith Ungol- or the "Uruk-Hai" Chapter. 

As for the races of ME there generally seems to be an increasing scale of hatred-potential:

Elves > Men > Dwarves > Orcs

Interestingly the Hobbits show little to no hatred-potential at all.

And, yes, I too think that at least one of the reasons of the repulsion that elves and men show towards Orcs is that they feel that this is how they could become in the worst case...

Just my two cents...


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## Theoden (May 28, 2002)

Seeing as how "hate" is such a strong emotion, and in most cases, a wrong emotion, we can only asume that the elves are the least likely to hate someone or something else. However, as seen in LotR, Elves greatly disliked dwarves, and to a digree, even hated them. As for men, we know too well that men are subject to hate eachother, other races, other things, and even ourselves. But there is the flip side to that and that would be that men also have the great ability to love and be loved by others. I'm not sure if I would say that one good thing about us out weighs a bad thing, but it is a point to be drawn. Seeing as how you gave us three options: Elves, Men, and Orcs, I would have to say that of the three I think that Orcs are by far the most capable of hate and greed and pride and selfishness... because at the core, their race was founded on hate and torture and really they are not even able to understand higher standards for living.


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## chrysophalax (May 28, 2002)

I would think by their very origin, as a corruption of Melkor, orcs would automatically have the greater capacity. Even though Men and even Elves most certainly weren't free of this most acidic of emotions, orcs were by far the most vile of all the created/re-created races, the culmination of which appears in the form of the Uruk-hai.


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## Anarchist (May 28, 2002)

Willing no offence to the others, I think orcs are just an easy answer, but IMO it's not the correct. Orcs are evil from nature. Their hatred is not deep. It's jsut the despise of everything 'unorcish'. Yet there is a particular person from a race that holds a hatred beyond any other. Yes, I am talking about Feanor and his hatred about Melkor, Morgoth as he named him. His deep hatred lead him to morbid actions and his race to great tortures. The oath he took contained all his hatred and that's why it tormented the elfs of his family for so many years.

I also believe that the hatred of elves to orcs is great, even greater than the hatred of orcs for elves. They hated orcs so much because they looked at them and couldn't believe that people of their race could become like this. Of course their hatred was also lead by noble causes, since the orcs where evil and elves wanted to prevent evil from prevailing.


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## Camille (May 28, 2002)

orcs hate everything! even themselves!, and for the elves I think that the orcs attacked the elves first and did great evil to them because of theis nature ( I mean orcs of course) so it is naturraly that the elves hate them, and about the elves vrs darwes I think they were not friends because of thier nature, elves love animals, plats, the living things, water, singing etc etc, dwarves didnt they only care for the things of their own making.


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## Ancalagon (May 28, 2002)

Now don't be afraid to find some quotes to back up your position in this debate. There are a great many references to hate by both Men and Elves throughout the Silmarillion and beyond. In addition; can Orcs not be forgiven for having their capacity to love removed, rather than their capacity to hate enhanced?

Do not Men and Elves have the same base instincts as Orcs when it boils down to it? Look at the battles fought throughout the ages; do you think Elves and Men were exempt from ability to commit deeds of great evil to Orcs (as Orcs did to them) in the heat of war? Furthermore; what part did Men and Elves play in seeking to tame these creatures that had been reared on human flesh? Cannabils they were by order of the Maia and Valar who created and abused them, yet convenient enough that they should be hunted and slain by their own kind over the ages! I contend that beneath it all; Orcs are the children of Men and Elves, as grotesque as that may be. Men and Elves sought only to abort themselves of this abomination they had helped create.


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## Maedhros (May 28, 2002)

> In the Great Battle when at last Morgoth was overthrown and Thangorodrim was broken, the Edain alone of the kindreds of Men fought for the Valar, whereas many others fought for Morgoth. And after the victory of the Lords of the West those of the evil Men who were not destroyed fled back into the east, where many of their race were still wandering in the unharvested lands, wild and lawless, refusing alike the summons of the Valar and of Morgoth. And the evil Men came among them, and cast over them a shadow of fear, and they took them for kings. Then the Valar forsook for a time the Men of Middle-earth who had refused their summons and had taken the friends of Morgoth to be their masters; and Men dwelt in darkness and were troubled by many evil things that Morgoth had devised in the days of his dominion: demons, and dragons, and misshapen beasts, and the unclean Orcs that are mockeries of the Children of Ilúvatar. And the lot of Men was unhappy.


I personally don't think that race had to do with hate. They all are capable of it. It's just that the orcs, being a corrupted version of elves/men are just "nomrally" evil while the elves/men should be "normally" good.
There are of course the example of Saeros an elf showing "hatred" to a man.


> And when three years had passed, Túrin returned again to Menegroth; but he came from the wild, and was unkempt, and his gear and garments were way-worn. Now one there was in Doriath, of the people of the Nandor, high in the counsels of the King; Saeros was his name. He had long begrudged to Túrin the honour he received as Thingol's fosterson; and seated opposite to him at the board he taunted him


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## Grond (May 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Theoden _
> *Seeing as how "hate" is such a strong emotion, and in most cases, a wrong emotion, we can only asume that the elves are the least likely to hate someone or something else. However, as seen in LotR, Elves greatly disliked dwarves, and to a digree, even hated them. As for men, we know too well that men are subject to hate eachother, other races, other things, and even ourselves. But there is the flip side to that and that would be that men also have the great ability to love and be loved by others. I'm not sure if I would say that one good thing about us out weighs a bad thing, but it is a point to be drawn. Seeing as how you gave us three options: Elves, Men, and Orcs, I would have to say that of the three I think that Orcs are by far the most capable of hate and greed and pride and selfishness... because at the core, their race was founded on hate and torture and really they are not even able to understand higher standards for living. *


When I first read the Silmarillion many years ago, I was surprised at the capacity of the Eldar to hate. The entire work is rampant with it. Feanor hates Melkor. Feanor hates Fingolfin. Feanor hates Finarfin. Feanor hates Indis. Galadriel hates Sauron. Celeborn hates the Elves for murdering Thingol. Thingol hates Beren but then loves him. Well... you get the picture. I agree that the Orcs are the creatures most susceptible to hate but the Eldar have a great capacity as well.


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## Maedhros (May 28, 2002)

> Feanor hates Melkor. Feanor hates Fingolfin. Feanor hates Finarfin. Feanor hates Indis.


Wow. Stop. You cannot compare the emotion that Feanor felt toward Melkor as being the same that he felt towards his brothers and step mother.
I would say that he disliked them, but not hated them. Feanaro in reality only hated Melkor because he took his father away from him.


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## Rangerdave (May 29, 2002)

At first glance, I like many people thought of the Orcs. But upon reflection I feel that the hatred of the orcs is simply the misplaced rage of the ignorant. The hatred the Orcs have for elves and men is very similar to simple racism. A good case could be made comparing the Uruk-Hai to the klu klux klan. (deliberately not capitalized) 

The hatred of the Elves towards Orcs however is more ice than fire. If my theories that Orcs were bred from Elves is correct, then the hatred the elves feel is more a form of loathing than anything else. In a sense, the Elves hate the things Orcs force them to do more than the they hate the Orcs themselves. 

Just a few thoughts, thank you for indulging me.
RD


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## Anarchist (May 29, 2002)

Should I add the hatred of dragons for everything good and pretty (except gold of course)? Dragons seem to bee the most evil creatures after the dark lords and Ugoliad. Their evilry turns to hatred in battle, where their rauth turns to total destruction.



> Fire leapt from the dragon's jaws. He circled for a while high in the air above them lighting all the lake; the trees by the shore shone like copper and like blood with leaping shadows of dense black at their feet. Then down he swooped straight through the great arrow-storm, reckless in his rage, taking no heed to take his scaly sides towards his foes, seeking only to turn their town ablaze.



This is the attack of Smaug in The Hobbit. It seems that when those creatures where annoyed, their fury was destructive. Almost like my maths teacher.


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## chrysophalax (May 29, 2002)

Thank you Anarchist! I was reluctant to bring up Dragons as I thought this discussion was regarding the races of Elves, Men, Dwarves and their sub-species Orcs. Critters of the two-legged variety. Dragons of course have an ENORMOUS capacity for hatred and destruction. Ain't it grand? Whoops! Showing my own personal prejudice here!!


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## Camille (May 30, 2002)

I do not think that orcs are the easy answer, I belive they have the greater capacity of hate, lets see, I know that the elves do have this capacity and even to be very tricky characters (Feanor's hate to morgoth, the dwarves vrs elves thing, etc) but orcs are the only creatures that I remember that likes torture, that is just pure evil!! remember Turin being tortureted by the orcs, the wofe of elrond, I do not remember an elf torturing other creature, it sis in the Hobbits about the elves when they had the dwarves in their dungeons that they feed them well, and with gollum it was the saem. I dont remember any other race that likes torture.


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## Grond (May 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Maedhros _
> *Wow. Stop. You cannot compare the emotion that Feanor felt toward Melkor as being the same that he felt towards his brothers and step mother.
> I would say that he disliked them, but not hated them. Feanaro in reality only hated Melkor because he took his father away from him. *


He loved his brother Fingolfin sooo much that he left him to return to Valinor with his tail between his legs or to risk death by crossing the Helcarxe. That shows a lot of brotherly love. 

And I'm sure that he loved the Elves of Aqualonde to death!!! lol


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## Tyaronumen (Jun 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rangerdave _
> *At first glance, I like many people thought of the Orcs. But upon reflection I feel that the hatred of the orcs is simply the misplaced rage of the ignorant. The hatred the Orcs have for elves and men is very similar to simple racism. A good case could be made comparing the Uruk-Hai to the klu klux klan. (deliberately not capitalized)
> 
> The hatred of the Elves towards Orcs however is more ice than fire. If my theories that Orcs were bred from Elves is correct, then the hatred the elves feel is more a form of loathing than anything else. In a sense, the Elves hate the things Orcs force them to do more than the they hate the Orcs themselves.
> ...



Well, I don't think that the hatred of the ORcs is equivalent to racism... that seems a bit simple... the hatred of the Orcs to me is the hatred of a person who has been beaten, reviled, hated, dominated, and neglected. The hatred of someone who has been isolated from all positive input and emotion to the greatest possible degree.

An all consuming, all encompassing hatred that is born of the undying pain that is existing with no sense of self except self-loathing, and the knowledge that the best that life can offer (to an Orc) is still a life filled with ugliness, pain, and (likely) sub-servience to some higher power.

IMHO


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## Anarchist (Jun 4, 2002)

Tyaronumen (how the heck to you pronounce that?)
I quite agree with you. Perhaps orcs felt hatred just because they couldn't feel anything else! Their hatred was just natural to them. And when they didn't find any elve, human or tree to express their hatred and anger they killed each other (remember when Frodo and Sam where in Mordor, how the orcs kept fighting each other for unimportant reasons).


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## Ancalagon (Jun 4, 2002)

> And when they didn't find any elve, human or tree to express their hatred and anger they killed each other (remember when Frodo and Sam where in Mordor, how the orcs kept fighting each other for unimportant reasons).



Anarchist; you have touched upon a very interesting point that I feel is extrememly valid in this debate. Orcs had a more primevil, base hatred ingrained in their psyche(?) that would be constantly exposed as a natural part of their personality. That is simply the way they are.

Men and Elves tend to have the same capacity for hatred buried deeper in their psyche(again ?), which was hidden and revealed at times of great emotional outbursts or need. Yet, the fact remains that it is there, buried or revealed it actually amounts the same capacity for hatred, just that one is more prevalent than the other. Therefore, I do not believe that Orcs have the greater capacity, just that they found it easier to express openly. Does this mean that Orcs were more in tune with the concept of 'emotional outbursts', resulting in less psychological problems, whereas Men and Elves kept their bottled up until suddenly it burst forth like blind rage and fury? Surely this then is directly as a result of the environment from which each comes, whereby for Orcs, it is necessary for survival, but for Men and Elves it is driven more by jealousy, envy and greed?


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## Anarchist (Jun 5, 2002)

Ancalagon I couldn't agree more. It is just that a lot believe that orcs have the greater capacity of hatred because they cause all this destruction. Now we are talking about capacity and not expression of hatred (even in this, dragons express their hatred with much more destruction that the orcs). I believe we can't talk about races here, since elves and men do not show their hatred that much but particular persons from these races (especially elves) express in morbid actions.

But I still believe that dragons had the greatest capacity of hate (is "hatred" more correct??). We are talking about pure evilry here expressed in furious actions. Next to the dragons stands Morgoth, who hated everything the Valar created and wanted either to corrupt it or to destroy it.


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## Ancalagon (Jun 5, 2002)

> for Melkor she knew from before the making of the Music and rejected him, and he hated her, and feared her more than all others whom Eru made



This is the first expression of hatred in the Silmarillion by Melkor towards Varda in the Ainulindale. Melkor stands alone I fear in his total disdain and hatred for all else save himself. Since Dragons were only a creation of Melkor they again stem from his own capacity for hatred. Melkor first, then maybe Dragons!


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## Tyaronumen (Jun 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Anarchist _
> *Tyaronumen (how the heck to you pronounce that?)
> I quite agree with you. Perhaps orcs felt hatred just because they couldn't feel anything else! Their hatred was just natural to them. And when they didn't find any elve, human or tree to express their hatred and anger they killed each other (remember when Frodo and Sam where in Mordor, how the orcs kept fighting each other for unimportant reasons). *



Pronunciation is 'tye-are-o-NUMEN' -- Agent of the West in Quendi. 

I always thought of the Orcs as being the ultimate 'abuse victims'... which is to say, I have always somehow felt that in an entirely different environment (and with NO exposure to the evil of Melkor), an Orc might demonstrate the capacity for creativity -- after all, the Orcs are also the Children of Iluvatar... just isolated from the grace of Eru (at least I envision it as a sort of percieved isolation... a lot of fear comes from the sensation of being alone)...


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## Tyaronumen (Jun 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ancalagon _
> *
> 
> This is the first expression of hatred in the Silmarillion by Melkor towards Varda in the Ainulindale. Melkor stands alone I fear in his total disdain and hatred for all else save himself. Since Dragons were only a creation of Melkor they again stem from his own capacity for hatred. Melkor first, then maybe Dragons! *




Hmmm -- I wonder... if Melkor did not hate himself as well? This seems to me to be something of a pre-condition for true hatred of others...

Anyhow, it does seem clear to me that Melkor's part in the making of the Music is the part that sparks hatred in the Children -- whether it be Orc, Elf, or otherwise, but that Melkor himself is not likely to be the origin of the hatred that is within the Children.

For if this were so, then would not Manwe and Varda, Aule and Yavanna, et al. have given similar gifts to the Children? But we know that that these Children are more as 'peers' to the Valar than their 'children', and that the Children sprang from the conception of Iluvatar, and not the Valar... thus, their capacity for hatred comes from Iluvatar just as surely as does Morgoth Bauglir's...

Which leads me to wonder if it is true that Morgoth's *capacity* for hatred was actually *greater* than any other being in creation? Or if simply the *realization* of his hatred was greater, simply because of his inherent power.

Could it not be possible that the hatred of Sauron, or even of Ugluk, was as great as that of Morgoth -- simply tempered by the relative weakness of the individual exhibiting the emotion? 

Just some thoughts that popped into my head when you wrote...


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## Ancalagon (Jun 5, 2002)

> Hmmm -- I wonder... if Melkor did not hate himself as well?



Interesting point, though I always harbored the thought that Melkor loved himself, above all else, even Iluvatar, whom he undoubtedly loathed also!

I suppose this aain touches on the Melkor, Evil by Will....thread, though I envisage some distinct differences in the origin.

One wonders if the capacity for hatred is a result of the division of gifts among the Ainur; that each sang their own gifts, emotion and feelings into the song, but each struggled in a more subtle way than the struggle of Melkor against Eru. Did each of the Ainur try to force their version of the song into a theme of the stronger part of their own nature; in turn this gave rise to a more intricate, un-noticeable discord, hidden beneath that of Melkors?

Whew, this is getting deep; even for me! Did the Ainur create hatred among races, because of their theme; because within the races, some were more drawn to certain traits and similarities of the Ainur than of others? 
I suppose another point in fact was Yvanna's creation of Ents as defenders of the Trees, against Men, Dwarves and Orcs! Although this was after the song of the Ainur, it was still a tangible reaction to the threat posed by other races.

Does all this emanate from the mind of Eru? I think so and will always maintain so!


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## Anarchist (Jun 9, 2002)

Just a thought about this topic you guys just brought up. The hatred Morgoth felt most probably came from Eru himself. It is I believe nessessary for the balance in the universe. Goodness in balance with evil. Since there are a lot "good" Valar, perhaps Morgoth needed to be so much evil to maintain the balance. Keep on.


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## Tyaronumen (Jun 11, 2002)

Well, an important factor of note is that hatred is merely the absence of love and not a thing in and of itself.

In this regard it is very similar to darkness... Darkness *itself* cannot be perceived with the usual visual senses because our visual sense requires a stimulus - light. And when you introduce light, there is darkness no longer. 

Yes, hatred is merely the absence of love...


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## Khamul (Jun 14, 2002)

> * From the Book of Lost Tales 2: The Fall of Gondolin*
> "These," said they, "are the confines of those regions which Melko infesteth with *Goblins, the PEOPLE OF HATE. *


I'm going with Orcs have the greater amount of hatred.


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