# Questions on Glorfindel



## Akallabeth (Jan 17, 2005)

(I'm getting extremely talented at asking amazingly stupid questions, but here goes: )
In The Silmarillion, Glorfindel dies helping the people of Gondolin escape: (_Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin_)


> Many are the songs that have been sung of the duel of Glorfindel with the Balrog upon a pinnacle of rock in that high place; and both fell to ruin in the abyss


 So Glorfindel is dead, and yet in The Fellowship of the Ring, he shows up to lend Frodo his horse and he appears at the Council of Elrond. But all that they ever say about him is: (_Flight to the Ford_)


> Soon Strider beckoned to them, and the hobbits left the bushes and hurried down to the Road. "This is Glorfindel, who dwells in the house of Elrond," said Strider.


 Question 1: If Glorfindel died, why is he still in Middle Earth, abiding in Rivendell?
Question 2: If he didn't actually die, or he miraculously came back to life, isn't he of higher caliber than Elrond and so would be lord in Elrond's place?
Hypothesis: Glorfindel died, and the elf appearing in The Fellowship is simply an elf named for Glorfindel. I know that many names have been repeated in Arda.


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## Turgon (Jan 17, 2005)

Not a stupid question at all Akallabeth, in fact it's right up there with, *Do Balrogs have wings?* and *What do you get if you cross a hobbit with a goblin?* as one of the most frequently asked Tolkien questions.

The two Glorfindels are one and the same. Ol' Glory was indeed slain during the sack of Gondolin, his spirit returning to the Halls of Mandos to await its fate. However Glorfindel was soon rehoused, presumably he played little part in the great rebellion of the Noldor, and so was granted this gift sooner than some of his more fractious kinsmen. How, or indeed, why it came to pass that Glorfindel was granted permission to return is something of a mystery (at least to me) but return he did, presumably in one of the ships that bore the Istari to the shores of Middle-earth.

As for Glory being of a higher caliber than Elrond, that can be answered in several ways. 

Firstly, Elrond's pedigree is of the highest order, being a descendent via Turgon, Idril, and Earendil of the Royal House of Finwe and by way of Luthien, Dior, and Elwing to Thingol and the Royal House of the Teleri. Throw Tuor and Beren into the mix, and we can add the House of Hador and the House of Beor to his list of illustrious ancestors. Few there are amongst either men or elves who can claim such high birth - though perhaps Glorfindel is one of them.

Secondly, and perhaps more importantly we should remember that Rivendell truely was the House of Elrond, and Glorfindel, no matter what his pedigree was simply a guest in it, and no self-respecting elf-lord would try to usurp the place of a rightful master.

Mmm... I hope I've made a little sense. Perhaps some kindly scholar will appear and fill in the blanks?


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## Akallabeth (Jan 17, 2005)

You have made far more than a little sense, Turgon. Thank you very much for the explanation. (And also for the assurance of the un-stupidity of my query.) It is good to have so many intelligent people on call to answer my questions.


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## GuardianRanger (Jan 17, 2005)

I may be a little too tired here, but I seem to recall that there were two Legolases...am I right, or just too tired?


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## Akallabeth (Jan 17, 2005)

GuardianRanger said:


> I may be a little too tired here, but I seem to recall that there were two Legolases...am I right, or just too tired?


There was a River Legolin... But I am not well-versed enough in the names of the inhabitants of Arda to know about more than one Legolas...


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## Elemmire (Jan 18, 2005)

Turgon said:


> Secondly, and perhaps more importantly we should remember that Rivendell truely was the House of Elrond, and Glorfindel, no matter what his pedigree was simply a guest in it, and no self-respecting elf-lord would try to usurp the place of a rightful master.


 
Especially since, as you also mentioned, Elrond is descended from Turgon, whom Glorfindel served in Gondolin.

And yeah, I think there was another Legolas, the earlier one being (I think) from Gondolin... Not sure where exactly it's mentioned, though.


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## Gothmog (Jan 18, 2005)

GuardianRanger said:


> I may be a little too tired here, but I seem to recall that there were two Legolases...am I right, or just too tired?


You are indeed right. Here follows a post that I did on another site Cuivienen on the the question of Gorfindels and Legolases:-

There are in fact two really notable occurrences of the same name being used in the Sil and in LotR. Strangely enough both feature Elves of Gondolin. We have the very famous Glorfindel of Gondolin and Rivendell. This was a problem to Tolkien who gave much thought to this. He decided that There were not Two Glorfindel's but one who lived in Gondolin and died fighting a Balrog and was then sent to Middle-earth either with Gandalf or earlier to aid Gil-galad.

The other one was an Elf named as a guide in the escape from the sacking of Gondolin named Legolas Greenleaf. This name was also given to a son of Thranduil of Mirkwood who became a member of the Fellowship of the Ring.

Now Tolkien says that the Elves did not repeat names. So how are we to look at this? Do we have Two Elves who were in Gondolin at the time of its fall and also involved notably in the War of the Ring?

Not really, what should be said on this question is that the Elves would not "Knowingly" repeat a name. Glorfindel had many songs sung about him. Anywhere the Noldor settled his name would be known and honoured. Such a name would certainly not be repeated. However, what of Legolas of Gondolin? Would he have been so well known. I doubt it. I expect that many of the Noldor would know it but even with that people there were probably a number who would not have heard of Legolas. So then we come to the Woodland Elves to the East of not only the Ered Luin but also the Misty Mountains. Far from ancient Beleriand, Glorfindel's fame quite likely spread even to them, after all Noldorin Elves did travel that far. But would the Woodland Elves have heard of Legolas? I would say probably not. Therefore it is not a case that Legolas was a "Repeated" name but simply that Thranduil or his wife thought of the name independently of the parents of Legolas of Gondolin.


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## Arvegil (Jan 19, 2005)

There is an essay (called "Glorfindel") in History of Middle Earth, Vol. XI. While there are a couple of variations, one idea proposed is that Glorfindel had a special mission to Middle-Earth in the same way the Istari did. It also makes it clear that Glorfindel is one, not two.

Glorfindel is peerage, but not royal, rank nobility; think of him as the equivalent of a earl or a viscount. In Gondolin, he was an important captain, but always subordinate to Turgon (who is, of course, Elrond's great-grandfather). Elrond descends from Noldor high kings on his father's side and the High King of the Teleri on his mother's (and throw in human lords as well).


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## GuardianRanger (Jan 19, 2005)

And while we're on the subject of multiple uses of a name....

There were two cities called Minas Tirith, right?


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## Confusticated (Jan 19, 2005)

I don't know how much the First Age Minas Tirith would qualify as a city. But it was Minas Tirith ('Tower of Watch' compared to Gondor's 'Tower of the Guard') built on Tol Sirion by Finrod.


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## Hammersmith (Jan 19, 2005)

Arvegil said:


> There is an essay (called "Glorfindel") in History of Middle Earth, Vol. XI. While there are a couple of variations, one idea proposed is that Glorfindel had a special mission to Middle-Earth in the same way the Istari did. It also makes it clear that Glorfindel is one, not two.


 
That is very helpful. I had always assumed that the name repetition was in reference to two elves, and I have looked for a writing of Tolkein (not looked that hard  ) for something to substantiate/refute that idea. I shall check the book! 



GuardianRanger said:


> I seem to recall that there were two Legolases


 
There's a Bregolas, too! The sort of "I-wish-I-was-Legolas-but-I'm-not" human guy...


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## Turgon (Jan 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Nóm_
> 
> I don't know how much the First Age Minas Tirith would qualify as a city. But it was Minas Tirith ('Tower of Watch' compared to Gondor's 'Tower of the Guard') built on Tol Sirion by Finrod.



It does beg the question as to why the Gondorians saw fit to rename Minas Anor after a fortress that famously fell before the power of Sauron? Not the most auspicious of names - unless perhaps it was an act of defiance?

As for the two instances of Legolas Greenleaf - I considered him to have been dropped from the legendarium at some point, certainly by the time LoTR had been published. I doubt that Thranduil would have been ignorant of the earlier Legolas. The Fall of Gondolin was a well known tale I am sure, and though I think it is mentioned somewhere that Thranduil's kin had fled east after the Fall of Doriath and not southwards to the Mouths of Sirion, he would have heard it sometime in the following ages.


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## Tar-Elenion (Jan 20, 2005)

I just want to point out that different Elves having the same names was not unheard of. Argon was said to be used by both Noldor and Sindar (in honour of Fingolfin's third son (see Shibboleth of Feanor)). Telperimpar was a common name among the Teleri (see Dwarves and Men) Rumil was the name of both a Silvan Elf of Lorien, and a High Elf of Aman (see LotR).


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## Arvegil (Jan 20, 2005)

Turgon said:


> It does beg the question as to why the Gondorians saw fit to rename Minas Anor after a fortress that famously fell before the power of Sauron? Not the most auspicious of names - unless perhaps it was an act of defiance?


 
Well, it is a pretty generic name in Elvish, really. And, it did become the tower of guard after the fall of Minas Ithil and the ruin of Osgiliath.


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## Confusticated (Jan 20, 2005)

Even though it is generic sounding I don't think they would have had any trouble finding another fitting name. But even if so, I like the idea that there was a defiance in the naming. How could there not be with Sauron as the present threat?

Plus, Felagund was the greatest ruler ever, who wouldn't name a place after his?


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## Arvegil (Jan 20, 2005)

Nóm said:


> Plus, Felagund was the greatest ruler ever, who wouldn't name a place after his?


 
You are just trying to bait Turgon fans, aren't you?


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## Confusticated (Jan 20, 2005)

Haha! No, honest! I'm a _huge_ Turgon fan myself .

To say a little something on subject: Did anyone else notice that in an old prose fragment JRRT had the character of Tuor named Turgon? 

And even though elf names were repeated, (even two named Gelmir in the Sil) the name of Glorfindel was peculiar in such a way that this seems to have been one reason JRRT concluded it was the same elf. The particular name was such that it wouldn't have been repeated. It's in The Glorfindel essays Arvegil mentions, if anyone cares.


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## Garwen (Jan 21, 2005)

Hi Arvergil,
I dont mean to ask a stupid qustion but, The Glorfindel essay in H.o.M.E. did you say xi. Did that book also have a secondary title? For example, vol. vi 'The return of the Shadow.' Because I dont think that I have the vol. that you are talking about and I really like Glorfindel I would very much like to read that essay. Thanks for any info that you can provide.


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## Witch-King (Jan 21, 2005)

Arvegil, In the book the War of the Jewels, you stated that there was an essay on Glorfindel. Would you happen to know where exactly that is located. I have the book but have yet to reach that far, iam on the book of lost tales pt. 2, but iam always interested in stuff about Glorfindel.


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## Confusticated (Jan 21, 2005)

Looks like a small typo. It's XII. 'The Peoples Of Middle-earth'. Witch-king have you read the Fall of Gondolin yet?


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## Witch-King (Jan 22, 2005)

No, almost though im just finishing the notes and commentary on Turambar and the Foalókë. long chapters


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