# A question on Tolkien's intention for the characterisation of Eru and Arda's destiny



## Isal Celebalda (Jan 5, 2003)

I've been pondering this for a while, and I haven't decided on my opinion but here is my question to you all... Did Tolkien mean for the Ilúvatar to know everything that will ever happen in Arda, thus meaning that its destiny was fixed from the beginning? Or did he wish for Eru to be characterised such that he would continually be changing the destiny and the future of the world?

In the Quenta Silmarilion, the Mandos is described as such:


> ...he knows all things that shall be, save only those that lie still in the freedom of Ilúvatar.


So perhaps this suggests that the destiny is not fixed. However, we can examine it again, focusing on a certain word and our views may change:


> ...he knows all things that shall be, save only those that lie *still* in the freedom of Ilúvatar...


It suggests to me that perhaps there will come a day when the destiny will not be in the hands of Ilúvatar... but does that mean the future was originally open to the changes of Eru yet after a set time the future became fixed? Or does it mean it will always be open to the change or Eru right up to the end of time?

I'd like to think I've started a philosophical topic now, so get your beliefs and opinions rolling in.


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## Rúmil (Jan 5, 2003)

My guess would be the same as St Augustine's: that at once destiny is fixed from the start and forever modified and changing: Eru is not part of Ëa, he is outside time: he can look at once at the beginning and at the end of the world, they are, so to speak, simultaneous. As if history to him was not linear but punctual, likely to be envisaged as an entity rather than a sequence, so that a modification en route, as seems to us, would in fact to him be determined from the start. Am I making sense?


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## Ceorl (Jan 5, 2003)

by definition these questions are unanswerable, purely because the answers are outside of human comprehension. We are creatures of this world, and our minds are made to function within it, try and imagina a new colour; one that is completely different to any ever seen, and you will find that it is impossible. Such is the idea of fate and time, and simultaneity. beyond human comprehension.
that is MHO in any case


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## Confusticated (Jan 5, 2003)

You make sense Rumil. I'm not sure I believe destiny was fixed at the start though.



> ...he knows all things that shall be, save only those that lie still in the freedom of Iluvatar...


While we couldn't imagine what it would be like to see tons of stuff at once, I imagine Iluvatar can see many ends, and maybe they are ever changing. He may be capable of comprehending infinity, in which case I think it is beyond us to understand.


Here a similar question is asked and a few people have answered.

Here is a thread with some thoughts on fate and doom that were inspired by Ulmo's words to Tuor in UT regarding a rift in doom.


PS: Good to see you around Ceorl!


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## jallan (Jan 10, 2003)

You can check out CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Predestination for a necessarily turgid disussion.


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