# Glaurung's rank in Morgoth's armies



## username (Nov 20, 2008)

I'm interested in what you all think about Glaurung's position in Angband's military.

From what I've read in other threads, the overall feeling seems to be that Morgoth is top dog, with Sauron and Gothmog being equal in rank (i.e. they cannot order each other to do anything and answer only to Morgoth), though they perform different functions. Gothmog is a general, and is the highest battlefield commander (as evidenced by his actual physical presence in many battles of the First Age), whereas Sauron is more of a governor, and is in charge of the more bureaucratic/strategic side of things. 

But where does Glaurung stand? I've always thought that he should outrank Gothmog. At first I found this counterintuitive, since Gothmog is a fallen Maia whereas Glaurung's heritage is unknown--but of course, just being a mystery doesn't make Glaurung inferior. For all we know, he could be a Maia as formerly noble as Gothmog imprisoned in the Middle-Earth equivalent of an Iron Man suit. (At least, I think that's a possibility, given the vagueness with which dragons were explained in _The Silmarillion_. If anyone has more information though, please share.)

In terms of physical prowess, I always got the feeling that Glaurung--and the other dragons--far outmatched anything else Morgoth had at his disposal, including Gothmog. Consider:



In The War of Wrath, Ancalagon and his winged brethren are singled out as the most devastating enemies encountered by the host of the Valar; the balrogs are hardly mentioned.
 

We hear a couple of accounts about Balrogs falling in single combat to elves, but look at the parallel case with dragons. Ancalagon was defeated by Eärendil, but it took an entire day, and Eärendil's resume is one of the most impressive ever (first mortal to enter Valinor and live, possesses a Silmaril, half-elven of Noldorian stock, magic flying ship, eventually guards Morgoth's jail cell, etc). The only other case of a dragon being slain onscreen in _TS _was Túrin's stabbing of Glaurung, but that was a sneak attack; the first time they met in direct confrontation Túrin only endured the dragon fire because of his dwarven war-mask, and the second time Glaurung _looked_ Túrin in the eye and had him paralyzed and helpless.
 

It may or may not be significant that in the Dagor Bragollach, where Glaurung made his debut as a full-grown dragon, it was said of the Father of Dragons that "balrogs were in his train." I believe this might have been a holdover from an earlier conception of the legendarium in which balrogs were far more numerous and individually much weaker, but still it bears thinking about.
 

You also don't hear accounts of balrogs burning forests down or decimating entire shield walls with the swing of a tail.


The aforementioned instance of Glaurung's "dragon spell" leads to the other reason, besides physical might, that I'd rank Glaurung above Gothmog: he's more subtle. The whole deal with tricking Túrin and Nienor into committing incest was extremely devious, and certainly gave them both a much more horrible death than if he had just cooked them with his fire. Reminds me of the illusion Sauron used on Gorlim to convince him to betray Barahir's band of outlaws. With his dragon spell Glaurung could have wreaked similar havoc, and certainly had the wits to devise such plots. That's not to say that Gothmog is dimwitted or anything, but his approach is definitely more straightforward.

I'm still not sure exactly how the ranking would work though. Even though Glaurung strikes me as more impressive, I still can't see him giving orders to Gothmog. Actually I can't imagine any member of this unholy trinity of Sauron, Gothmog and Glaurung deferring to each other...

Thoughts?


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## YayGollum (Nov 21, 2008)

A few:

I went with other. His rank was Father Of All Dragons. Unique, whereas Gothmog got hooked by Mel's fancy singing advertisements back in the Void, barely made it through boot camp, and eventually climbed his way through the ranks of the regular old army and mostly made General via sucking upwards. From what was written about different methods of producing Orcs, then the different kinds of dragons at the hilarious Fall Of Gondolin, I figure that Glaurung was an experiment. Even if he was stronger, smarter, and more fabulously magical, he was still just some experiment, like Carcharoth. Sure, he was given a bunch of Orcs to order around, but those guys were crazy expendable. Also, yes, Glaurung messing with Turin elfbane and Nienor was deliciously evil and such, but I'm thinking that it isn't really that great to have some superly powerful monster just playing around with powerful enemies and letting them go. 

Also, also, what's so great about Earendil? Sure, he's a great sailor. Yay for a silmaril falling into his lap, I guess. Good job at being lucky, there. Towards killing Ancalagon, it seems that his magical ship did most of the work, and he just lifted his sword as he passed. Unless he and Elwing are crazy good at controlling that big ship by themselves. Did they even have an immortal crew up there?


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## username (Nov 21, 2008)

YayGollum said:


> Also, also, what's so great about Earendil? Sure, he's a great sailor. Yay for a silmaril falling into his lap, I guess. Good job at being lucky, there. Towards killing Ancalagon, it seems that his magical ship did most of the work, and he just lifted his sword as he passed. Unless he and Elwing are crazy good at controlling that big ship by themselves. Did they even have an immortal crew up there?



Actually, I'm not sure what's so great about Earendil...all that stuff I wrote was me trying to convince myself that he was worthy of killing Ancalagon. From the sound of it (I apologize for not being able to provide a direct quote, but my copy of _The Silmarillion_ is unavailable at the moment), Ancalagon was roughly the size of a small planet. (He "blotted out the sun," for one, and was so heavy that he obliterated Thangorodrim in his fall from the sky. Wasn't Thangorodrim the highest mountain with the exception of Taniquetil?) This being the case, I imagine that Earendil must have been the size of Ancalagon's pinky. Or a molecule in his pinky, more like. Even a direct sword-thrust to the heart shouldn't have gone deep enough to kill him. 

The only thing I can think of is that the Silmaril death-rays beaming from Earendil's forehead were the major factor in doing Ancalagon in, with the sword-play just being the final straw. Although even that theory isn't unassailable, since it was only direct contact with the Silmaril that drove Carcharoth rabid; Morgoth festooned his noggin with the things and apparently didn't suffer anything more than an abnormally heavy head.


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## Prince of Cats (Nov 21, 2008)

Glaurung's toying with Turin, especially letting him go at points, always seemed to me something of Glaurung's own enjoyment and not so much orders from Gothmog or Sauron. Morgoth may have asked him to mess with Turin for Hurin's sake but it seemed like he was at his own command, otherwise he'd be too busy with tearing up the countryside & knocking down walls. I agree with yay that he was probably an experiment that turned out exceedingly impressive and Mel was happy to have such a fiend into Middle Earth


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## chrysophalax (Nov 22, 2008)

I had to put "other" because Dragons are in a class by themsalves, having no equal. As Yay and our anonymously named new member have stated, they were an experiment gone oh, so very right...like lizards on Miracle-Gro and steroids. They instilled absolute terror into the hearts of elves and Tolkien had to write an entire book (The Hobbit) about how to sneakily exterminate one. (Ack! Just heard a Dalek voice in my head for a moment there!)

I believe dragons were the ultimate force in Melkor's army. Unfortunately, they appear to have bred very slowly, more's the pity...


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## Illuin (Nov 22, 2008)

> by username
> _Ancalagon was roughly the size of a small planet. (He "blotted out the sun," for one, and was so heavy that he obliterated Thangorodrim in his fall from the sky. Wasn't Thangorodrim the highest mountain with the exception of Taniquetil?)_


 
Well, let’s not overstate things here. Mercury is the "_smallest_" planet in the solar system (unless you still consider Pluto "a planet"). Mercury’s diameter is 3,031 miles (4,878 km) in diameter (roughly the distance between New York and San Francisco - or in Middle-Earth terminology; far larger than Beleriand and Middle Earth combined (including the land of Haradwaith). If something the size of Mercury were to fall on Thangorodrim, Arda itself (the Earth) would split in half (in reality, disintegrate). Perhaps Ancalagon was roughly the size of a small skyscraper; not a small planet .



> by chrysophalax
> _I believe dragons were the ultimate force in Melkor's army._


 

Agreed! Nothing even comes close.


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## Bucky (Dec 4, 2008)

From what I've read in other threads, the overall feeling seems to be that Morgoth is top dog, with Sauron and Gothmog being equal in rank (i.e. they cannot order each other to do anything and answer only to Morgoth), 

*Well, Sauron was in charge of Angband when Morgoth left to visit the 'newly arisen' Men in the East, so Gothmog answered to him then.....

And there's no evidence they were equal - people just say that.

Tolkien plainly states that Sauron was a much greater spirit than the Balrogs were.

As far as military leaders, Gothmog is called 'High captain', but after Glaurung reaches full maturity, we see him leading the Battle of Sudden flame, not Blarogs (I believe this is also in later versions, which The Simarillion is almost taken word for word from), probably leading the 'Eastern Front' in the Fifth Battle & leading the army into Western Beleriand that sacks Nargothrond. It seems, therefore, that Glaurung does take over the majority of the active military leadership after his time comes.


As far as Earendil vs Ancalagon, I always thought that tale was a bunch of nonsense with difficulty believing.

Remember that Tolkien himself conceived of The Silmarillion as a bunch of stories handed down second & third hand through Elves to Men from a far distant past......

Is it to be taken literally or as a 'legend'?

I wonder if Tolkien's analytical mind would've allowed this story to be published 'as is'. *


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## username (Dec 5, 2008)

Bucky said:


> *Well, Sauron was in charge of Angband when Morgoth left to visit the 'newly arisen' Men in the East, so Gothmog answered to him then.....*


The Angband thing could be rationalized by arguing for the of division of duties idea. Morgoth puts Sauron in charge since he's a better schemer than fighter, whereas for Gothmog the reverse is true. 

But what if there had been an attack on Angband in Morgoth's absence? Maybe Sauron would still be the one drawing up a general strategy, but could he really have ordered Gothmog to stay off the battlefield if the guy really wanted to go bash some skulls? Could he have commanded the other balrogs to do what he said, or would they only acquiesce if Gothmog gave his approval? After all, his title wasn't just _High Captain of Angband_--it was also _Lord of the Balrogs_. 


> *And there's no evidence they were equal - people just say that.*



Well, there's no evidence either way, so it's arguable. 

Another point of contention has to do with the relationship between Sauron and Durin's Bane in LotR. If Sauron clearly outranked the balrogs in the First Age and routinely gave them orders, why wouldn't he re-establish contact in the Third Age? There are a number of possible reasons (e.g. fear that if the balrog found the ring first he would not surrender it) that have nothing to do with their original ranks as servants of Morgoth, but nevertheless, Sauron's superiority to Gothmog during the First Age is hardly clear-cut.


> *Tolkien plainly states that Sauron was a much greater spirit than the Balrogs were.*



This is true, and while it is suggestive, it does not bear directly on whether Sauron outranked Gothmog, or even if he technically did, whether he would feel at ease giving Gothmog orders. Gothmog probably could have defeated Sauron in single-combat (given Huan's performance--and Huan, incidentally, is probably also a lesser spirit compared to Sauron), a fact of which they'd both be aware. 

Also, they were both attracted to the machinations of Morgoth. Those who fall for his spiel probably have a couple of character traits in common, such as pride, a lust for power, and general nastiness and cruelty. I don't think either of them would be content with being ordered around by another Maia. Heck, Morgoth might have granted them both equal standing just to decrease the possibility of internecine warfare amongst his most powerful servants.


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## Bucky (Dec 23, 2008)

Another point of contention has to do with the relationship between Sauron and Durin's Bane in LotR. If Sauron clearly outranked the balrogs in the First Age and routinely gave them orders, why wouldn't he re-establish contact in the Third Age? *

Boy, I have been through this one elsewhere..... 

First, it is extremely likely that Sauron did not know there was a Balrog in Moria.
There was not much travel of Sauron's agents over Anduin.
It took Sauron 499 years to begin to 'people' Moria with 'his creatures'.

Remember that Gandalf himself had traveled through Moria once before, certainly had heard any Dwarvish reprts on 'Durin's Bane' & even had the confrontation through the door in the Chamber of Mazarbul, yet it wasn't until he saw Durin's Bane that he says "A Balrog. Now I understand."

Even moreso, Celeborn, upon the arrival of the Fellowship, is told of Gandalf's fall. 

Aragorn, who was there & must have heard both Legolas & Gandalf call it a Balrog, still says, "(It was) An evil of the Ancient World it seemed such as I have never seen before. It was both a shadow & a flame, terrible & strong."
Legolas then says "It was a Balrog of Morgoth."

Celeborn, who knows many Elves of Lorien fled when Durin's Bane awoke and/or was released, says, ""We long have feared that under Caradhras a terror slept. But had I known the Dwarves had stirred up evil..."

Note, even Celeborn wasn't aware until being told by Legolas that it was a Balrog, calling it simply "a terror"......

Now how would Sauron, with no first hand accounts & no agents traveling back & forth between Dol Guldur or Bard-Dur & Moria know that 'Durin's Bane' is a Balrog & not some 'nameless thing' from the depths of the mountains like the Watcher in the Water?

Wouldn't that be more likely?
After all, weren't all the Balrogs presumed destroyed in the breaking of Thangorodrim?
Remember, histories saying 'some few Balrogs hid themselves' were written AFTER it was know Durin's Bane was a Balrog, not before.

Secondly, what was Sauron going to do with this Balrog if he knew he was there?
I doubt fear was his motivating factor.......

Here we have 2 former servants of Morgoth.
(let's not debate their inherant strength, but obviously Sauron is weaker anyhow)

One servant has spent the time since Morgoth's demise building himself into the second Dark Lord.

The other, hiding in fear from the Host of the West.

When Durin's Bane was unleashed, he had no idea if the Host of the West was no still ruling Middle-earth & wasn't about to go looking to find out.
He was staying put in Moria & seemed content for 1000 years to go nowhere - hardly great fodder for leading your army or worrisome as a rival for Dark Lord of Middle-earth.

So, the only threat that Durin's Bane might've been to Sauron is if he stumbled on the Ring, which almost happened.
Actually, it probably did because all indications are that DB never bothered Balin's Company in the 5 years they were in Moria. All the puposeful damage done to them was by Orcs.
Why then does DB go after the Fellowship?
Is he drawn by the Ring?
Probably so.
*


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## Valoki (Dec 22, 2010)

Hello everyone,

My first post here 

With regards rank

Sauron was Morgoth's 2IC and had formally been Aule's 2IC and was over all more powerful than Gothmog or Glaurung although i don;t doubt it would have been a vicious fight between any two of them.

Gothmog was leader of Morgoth's host but don;t forget that the Fallen Maia were a finite resource whereas Dragon's could be bred. Everytime Morgoth's host went into battle with the Valar's host he would have lost various servants as they would have been lost into spirit and passed from the world unable to take form. OR, they would have been cast out the Door of Night and not been able to re-enter through the guarded Door of Morning.

Glaurung being a replaceable resource would have been assigned the task of leading specific armies for specific objectives.

So I think
the rank structure would have been on the lines of this:

Sauron - 2nd in Command
Gothmog - Captain of the Host
Glaurung - Father of Dragons / Captain of Dragons

Sauron and Gothmog aren't replaceable, Glaurung is.

Cheers
Valoki


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## Peeping-Tom (Jan 20, 2011)

> Also, what's so great about Earendil? Sure, he's a great sailor. Yay for a silmaril falling into his lap, I guess. Good job at being lucky, there. Towards killing Ancalagon, it seems that his magical ship did most of the work, and he just lifted his sword as he passed.





> Actually, I'm not sure what's so great about Earendil...all that stuff I wrote was me trying to convince myself that he was worthy of killing Ancalagon.





> Perhaps Ancalagon was roughly the size of a small skyscraper; not a small planet .





> As far as Earendil vs Ancalagon, I always thought that tale was a bunch of nonsense with difficulty believing.



Why all the doubt about Eärendil slaying Ancalagon?

Size does'nt matter...or actually in this case, bigger IS better...they fell harder.

Without wings, nobody flies....no matter the size.....

Eärendil might just have tried to rip Ancalagon's wings, letting him crash onto the sharp peaks below...and did'nt he get help from the Eagles?

I know, I know...I'm an Eärendil fan...so what? :*p

_Eärendil : A bright star in the sky, beholder of the last Silmaril, saviour of the Edain and probably most of the peoples of Middle Earth._
_No Eärendil...no Hobbit story & no Lord of The Ring stories...and no TTF!_


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