# Dior's race and geneology



## Laurelin (Jan 12, 2004)

_*I have always been a bit bewildered when it comes to the subject of Dior's race and the genes he passed on to his descendants. 
Tolkien states near the end of the Silmarillion that from Elrond and Elros "has come among Men the blood of the Firstborn and a strain of the spirits divine that were before Arda; for they were the sons of Elwing, Dior's daughter, Lúthien's son, child of Thingol and Melian."
Dior, of course, being the child Beren and Lúthien, would posses human blood from his father and both Elven and divine blood from his mother, since she was the daughter of an Elf and a Maia.
All this seems logical enough if one is simply tracing Dior's ancestry and posterity using a family tree. However, the situation becomes quite complicated and confusing given the history of Beren and Lúthien, and this is what troubles me.
Dior was born after Beren and Lúthien had died and been given leave to return again to Middle-earth. Surely Beren returned in his original human form, but what about Lúthien? When she chose to return to Middle-earth with Beren, she became mortal. According to Tolkien, she made this choice "forsaking the Blessed Realm, and putting aside all claim to kinship with those that dwell there." Upon returning to Middle-earth to dwell with Beren "for a time as living man and woman," "they took up again their mortal form in Doriath."
In what form, exactly, did Lúthien return? Tolkien does not state that she returned as a human, but the word "mortal" is used, as is "woman," both of which I associate with humans. Moreover, in renouncing her kinship with those that abide in Aman, does it not follow that she would no longer possess the qualities of her Elven and divine bloodline once she returned to Middle-earth? If this were indeed the case, Dior would only have human blood.
I would love to hear anyone's thoughts on this matter.*_


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## Confusticated (Jan 12, 2004)

Hi Laurelin,

We could think that she returned in a body exactly like the one she had before, and was different only in that she was now mortal. In this case her son would still have elven blood, Luthien's new body being geneticly the same as her old one... same blood, but spirit with a different fate. This is like the half-elven mortals. There are a couple reasons I believe this. First, when slain elves are rehoused they go into a body identical to their former one. Second, Dior had elven blood, so that is proof that Luthien must also have had this after she returned as a mortal. So, I can see as how Luthien no longer has any immortal qualities while her son is still half-elven and a bit of Ainu.

And while Luthien put aside claim to kinship with her kin of Aman and Dior still counted himself kin of Thingol, I can only think that slightly different meanings of the word 'kin' can explain this. 

As for Ainur blood... I do wonder. Was this purely spiritual... or was it both spiritual and biological? I see no reason Melian's blood would be different than an elf's... but _perhaps_ there is something about the body of an Ainu incarnated as an elf that differs from an elf's body geneticly. But regarding an Ainu descendant... because elves nourish their offspring both physically and spiritually, I have no doubt that the spirit of a mortal with an immortal ancestor would have something special because of that.


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## Gildor (Jan 12, 2004)

Laurelin said:


> _*
> In what form, exactly, did Lúthien return? Tolkien does not state that she returned as a human, but the word "mortal" is used, as is "woman," both of which I associate with humans. Moreover, in renouncing her kinship with those that abide in Aman, does it not follow that she would no longer possess the qualities of her Elven and divine bloodline once she returned to Middle-earth? If this were indeed the case, Dior would only have human blood.
> I would love to hear anyone's thoughts on this matter.*_



I would think that she had the same form as before, only she no longer possessed the immortality of her Elven kindred. We can look to Arwen as the closest example of this...she also gave up her immortality, but there is no evidence that doing so changed her in any way.

And regarding the term 'woman' implying 'human,' I remember that Tolkien uses it quite often when referring to Elves, especially Galadriel.


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## Laurelin (Jan 15, 2004)

_*Thank you both for the clarification. I had more or less assumed that she had returned in the same form, with the exception of being "mortal," a term which was most likely referring to the state of her soul and not her body.
Arwen is the closest example, but I suppose that the whole "coming back from the dead" thing combined with her choice to be mortal threw me off.
Nóm, you raise an interesting point about the idea of Ainur blood. I'm not sure that their blood would be different. Tolkien did speak of the Ainur "wearing" the forms of other beings in the same way we wear clothing, though, so it was more of a "shell" than anything else. Maybe whatever divine qualities they possess would have still been expressed somehow, and thus passed down to their offspring. Tolkien does say in the Silmarillion:

"And from these brethren alone [Elrond and Elros] has come among Men the blood of the Firstborn and a strain of the spirits divine that were before Arda..."

It would seem that some aspect of the Ainur was somehow passed down to the progeny of Thingol and Melian.*_


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## Confusticated (Jan 15, 2004)

Laurelin said:


> Thank you both for the clarification.



You're welcome.



Laurelin said:


> I'm not sure that their blood would be different. Tolkien did speak of the Ainur "wearing" the forms of other beings in the same way we wear clothing, though, so it was more of a "shell" than anything else. Maybe whatever divine qualities they possess would have still been expressed somehow, and thus passed down to their offspring.


While taking shape is normally to an Ainur as clothing is to us, this isn't so with Ainur who incarnate and have offsprng as Melian did. Those who were bound to their form like Melian and Morgoth, wouldn't be wearing any more of a shell than elves are, I would think. If I had to guess I'd say Melian was geneticly idenical to an elf, and of course her ability to mate with an elf shows that she must have been at least very close. 

The divine strain is what I had in mind when I questioned if this is entirely spiritual. Especially if Melian's body was geneticly that of an elf... not divine in itself.


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