# Poll: What's your expectation/opinion about the new Amazon TV series The Rings of Power?



## Firinne Gile (Feb 14, 2022)

Poll: What's your expectation/opinion about the new Amazon TV series The Rings of Power?


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## Ealdwyn (Feb 14, 2022)

Can you add "depressed" to that poll, coz that's how I'm feeling after seeing the trailer


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## Aldarion (Feb 14, 2022)

Yeah... Amazon has no clue about the Silmarillion:


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## HALETH✒🗡 (Feb 14, 2022)

Pessimistic but trying not to lose hope.


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## AaronSecret (Feb 14, 2022)

HALETH✒🗡 said:


> Pessimistic but trying not to lose hope.


Same.


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## Halasían (Feb 14, 2022)

I'm on the low end of 'cautiously optimistic' right now, having moved up a bit from the high end of 'somewhat pessimistic'. 
🤣 
(Emfourarethirtyfiveenthreefiftyseven probably missed this)


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## Erestor Arcamen (Feb 14, 2022)

I'm being cautiously optimistic that it'll be a good fantasy series, maybe not perfectly Tolkienish. If I don't like it, I'll turn it off, simple as that.


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## 1stvermont (Feb 14, 2022)

I am confidently Pessimistic. I do however hold out hope it will resemble Tolkien's world enough, to sit through the depressing [to borrow from
Ealdwyn] times. Hey, there is stuff I dislike about Jackson's LOTR but I love those movies, so you never know.​
Sorry for the bolded text. Remove formatting is not erasing my blunder.


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## Ealdwyn (Feb 15, 2022)

I will probably watch it out of curiosity. I can always turn it off if I hate it.

Although I hate what PJ did to LotR, I enjoy those as a fantasy movies because (as I've said on another thread) it has so much to love in the production values, even though it's not faithful to canon. I doubt that will be the case with ROP. But we will see, precious. Oh yes, we will see.


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## Aldarion (Feb 15, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> I will probably watch it out of curiosity. I can always turn it off if I hate it.
> 
> Although I hate what PJ did to LotR, I enjoy those as a fantasy movies because (as I've said on another thread) it has so much to love in the production values, even though it's not faithful to canon. I doubt that will be the case with ROP. But we will see, precious. Oh yes, we will see.


Peter Jackson was actually not _that _bad, considering how bad it could have been. And he has had Christopher Lee, who was basically a walking Tolkien encyclopedia (as well as being SAS Commando with extensive combat experience) holding his hand in quite a few things as well. But Amazon? Unlike Jackson, they have absolutely no respect or love for Tolkien's work - in fact, they _outright hate it_ - and their "Tolkien Scholar" is completely ignorant of anything Tolkien related.


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## 1stvermont (Feb 15, 2022)

Aldarion said:


> Peter Jackson was actually not _that _bad, considering how bad it could have been. And he has had Christopher Lee, who was basically a walking Tolkien encyclopedia (as well as being SAS Commando with extensive combat experience) holding his hand in quite a few things as well. But Amazon? Unlike Jackson, they have absolutely no respect or love for Tolkien's work - in fact, they _outright hate it_ - and their "Tolkien Scholar" is completely ignorant of anything Tolkien related.



I agree. While Jackson did some things Tolkien would have hated, overall he and the team tried to stay close to the books.


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## Uminya (Feb 15, 2022)

I didn't even know they were making this series until I saw it here yesterday. Though it's not the same crew that made the Hobbit films, I can't help but be pessimistic about the attitudes that producers have toward this kind of material.


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## Annatar (Feb 16, 2022)

I like the design of the CGI cities we've seen so far, Tirion and Romenna(?). Also the scene with the elves in the autumnal forest with the waterfall looks atmospheric.

Unfortunately, I can't say much more positive about the series, it will most likely be a total disaster.


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## HALETH✒🗡 (Feb 19, 2022)

Firinne Gile said:


> Warning for those who like Tolkien's books: learn Russian.


Could you explain, please?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 19, 2022)

I'm not sure I want to know. . .


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## Ealdwyn (Feb 19, 2022)

Firinne Gile said:


> Yes. That's the reason. Item 2.


Before you start on that subject again, you might want to refer to the reasons a recent thread was shut down


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## Erestor Arcamen (Feb 19, 2022)

Yup, all for open discussion but politics and conspiracy theories aren't necessary, comrades.


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## Ealdwyn (Feb 19, 2022)

Interesting to see that the fan reaction to the trailer has been commented on by mainstream press









The Guide #22: is Amazon’s Lord of the Rings adaptation the one show to rile them all?


In this week’s newsletter: we’re used to online revolts by now, but fans objecting to The Rings of Power’s very existence is something unprecedented




www.theguardian.com


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## Goku da Silva (Feb 19, 2022)

I have a bad feeling about this...😌


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## Annatar (Feb 25, 2022)

I'd be very interested to know why Tom Shippey was fired so early or what happened. The Vanity Fair article speculates that he revealed too much about Amazon's film rights during an interview. But can that really be a reason to fire one of the most important Tolkien experts?


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## Aldarion (Feb 25, 2022)

I suspect it is because they wanted to be free to ignore Tolkien's work.


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## Aldarion (Mar 1, 2022)

Chris Gore discusses why new Amazon series is basically alienating the audience.


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## Ealdwyn (Mar 2, 2022)

I came across this post today - they're not my words but I agree wholeheartedly with them

_Nerd Rage, general hatred of Amazon, and, yes, a certain degree of racism are surely aspects of it for some people, but I think that the backlash against the "Rings of Power" is more prosaic than any of this.
What I think that it boils down to is that "Lord of the Rings" was made with love. Tolkien was certainly not writing it to make huge amounts of money off of it, he did it out of love; the generations of children who grew up RPing Elves and drawing detailed maps of Osgiliath and somehow forcing their way through the text of the Silmarillion were acting out if love; even, yes, the Peter Jackson movies, which were absolutely capitalist enterprises from top to bottom, would not have been what they were without the love of the people working on them.
And then along comes Amazon, for whom this obsession, this passion, this love is just a market segment. Amazon, the economic equivalent of a malignant brain tumour, to which all things are always and only IP to be consumed. And they show complete disregard for the original text, because they just don't care. To them, it's an aesthetic. Something they can market to fans of Game of Thrones or the Witcher. A centrepiece for their own forays into streaming.
So that's the basis for the pushback. It's not because Galadriel has the wrong heraldry or because the Dwarven women are beardless. It is the revolt of culture against being puréed, processed, and packaged into #Content_


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## Olorgando (Mar 2, 2022)

Aldarion said:


> Chris Gore discusses why new Amazon series is basically alienating the audience.


OK, this one gave me a smaller re-run of what I experienced after S-eS posted this on the "What book are you reading ..." thread:









What book are you reading right now?


Going over my Cthulhu collection for the second time. Just finished one of my favourites, The Mound. Conjures up beautifully grotesque images that I can only describe as Caligula meets Hellraiser. At the Mountains of Madness is next! Lovecraft is often infuriatingly difficult to read (unlike...




www.thetolkienforum.com





First off, I didn't get sound when I let it run here on TTF, so I restarted with the "Watch on YouTube" option. Interesting stuff; and you probably know that YT immediately has another video in its selection list, which will start in "... 3 ... 2 ... 1 ..." seconds.
It was the title of the next selection that made me do a double-take, like the bit about a ranking of all 33 Godzilla films in that other thread's link provided by S-eS.

"Why 99% Of Movies Today Are Garbage".

I stopped after that one. The suggestion list in the column on the right would have me watching until the weekend.
But isn't bashing Hollywood (including its online clones) shooting fish in a barrel? 🤔 😉


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## Halasían (Mar 2, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> I came across this post today - they're not my words but I agree wholeheartedly with them
> 
> _Nerd Rage, general hatred of Amazon, and, yes, a certain degree of racism are surely aspects of it for some people, but I think that the backlash against the "Rings of Power" is more prosaic than any of this.
> What I think that it boils down to is that "Lord of the Rings" was made with love. Tolkien was certainly not writing it to make huge amounts of money off of it, he did it out of love; the generations of children who grew up RPing Elves and drawing detailed maps of Osgiliath and somehow forcing their way through the text of the Silmarillion were acting out if love; even, yes, the Peter Jackson movies, which were absolutely capitalist enterprises from top to bottom_


I wholeheartedly agree with this part.



Ealdwyn said:


> _And then along comes Amazon, for whom this obsession, this passion, this love is just a market segment. Amazon, the economic equivalent of a malignant brain tumour, to which all things are always and only IP to be consumed. And they show complete disregard for the original text, because they just don't care. To them, it's an aesthetic. Something they can market to fans of Game of Thrones or the Witcher. A centrepiece for their own forays into streaming.
> So that's the basis for the pushback. It's not because Galadriel has the wrong heraldry or because the Dwarven women are beardless. It is the revolt of culture against being puréed, processed, and packaged into #Content_


Not with this part as it is just more of the typical same ol same ol opinions. *yawn*
I'm willing to give the producers the benefit of the doubt and will give it a watch and will judge it on what is presented.


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## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 2, 2022)

I am totally pessimistic, i totally dislike the pictures of Galadriel. Cate Blachett was perfect in this role, but the Amazon Galadriel looks average and not elvish. And i dont understand, why they show black elves and a black dwarf princess in this serie, this has nothing to do with Tolkiens Books, there was all elves and dwarfes white. I normally like movies with black actors, but i thinkt, they do not fit in Fantasyseries or Medival Series. I am really sad, what they make with Galadriel in ths serie....totally horrible for me.
And i dont remember strange man with Wings (like in the Trailer) and a naked Meteor Man in Tolkiens Books......that does also absolutely not fit into middle earth. I can see it: This serie will be a total desaster and disappointment for trueTolkienfans.

For me this is no Galadriel....it is horrible, what they have done to my favorite Tolkien-Character.
I dont want to see a sword-fighting Galadriel, i want to see a wise Galadriel in a white dress like in Tolkiens Book and in Peter Jacksons movie. This Galadriel here is for me totally annoying.
This warrior-woman-thing dont fit to tolkiens Galadriel.



Aldarion said:


> Yeah... Amazon has no clue about the Silmarillion:


What should this be? Diversity Angels in Middle Earth? 😆
This has nothing to do with Tolkiens Books...totally horrible....i will not watch it.


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## Ealdwyn (Mar 3, 2022)

LadyGaladriel1980 said:


> For me this is no Galadriel....it is horrible, what they have done to my favorite Tolkien-Character.
> I dont want to see a sword-fighting Galadriel, i want to see a wise Galadriel in a white dress like in Tolkiens Book and in Peter Jacksons movie. This Galadriel here is for me totally annoying.
> This warrior-woman-thing dont fit to tolkiens Galadriel.


If you think all elves were serene and wise and floated around in white dresses in the FIrst and Second Age, then you're going to get a shock when you read the Silmarillion 🤣


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## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 3, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> If you think all elves were serene and wise and floated around in white dresses in the FIrst and Second Age, then you're going to get a shock when you read the Silmarillion 🤣


I have read the Silmarillion, but i am sure, that Galadriel never was the warrior princess with the sword, the amazon producers made of her. And i dont remember strange man with wings in the Silmarillion or a naked Meteor Man from heaven. This Serie has nothing to do with the Silmarillion. They use Tolkiens Name to produce something, that has nothing in common with Tolkiens middle earth.


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## Annatar (Mar 3, 2022)

LadyGaladriel1980 said:


> And i dont remember strange man with wings


Those aren't wings, they're antlers from giant mooses. Why you strap them on and run through New Zealand without falling over all the time is not clear to me (yet). But since it's the second scene in the trailer, it must be something enormously important, I'm very sure.



LadyGaladriel1980 said:


> a naked Meteor Man


I'd suggest, this is young Gandalf. He's saved by a nice hobbit girl after his crash landing. This should explain why Gandalf later thinks so highly of the hobbits and sends them to Mordor without much hesitation to destroy the greatest evil since Morgoth.
The hobbit girl is probably an ancestor of Bilbo and Frodo. So all their heroism is ultimately just the legacy of a strong woman.
Because the series will be primarily about strong women. And diversity. But above all about strong women, as was already shown in The Wheel of Time.


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## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 3, 2022)

Annatar said:


> Those aren't wings, they're antlers from giant mooses. Why you strap them on and run through New Zealand without falling over all the time is not clear to me (yet). But since it's the second scene in the trailer, it must be something enormously important, I'm very sure.
> 
> 
> I'd suggest, this is young Gandalf. He's saved by a nice hobbit girl after his crash landing. This should explain why Gandalf later thinks so highly of the hobbits and sends them to Mordor without much hesitation to destroy the greatest evil since Morgoth.
> ...


A serie about diversity and warrior woman has nothing to do with Tolkiens middle earth. I am really, how they destroy Tolkiens genious books....and i think it is totally absurd, that they let Gandalf fall naked from the sky. Horrible, really horrible...my opinion is, that diversity dont fit to Middle earth, and black elves is something, which i totally dislike. This serie is nothing for true fans, it is more a cheap fantasy trash for teenagers. Galadriels braid looks like ice queen Elsa, i guess, the producers give her this one braid, to find young teenage girls as fans.....but for true Tolkienfans they did nothing.


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## Goldilocks Gamgee (Mar 5, 2022)

Annatar said:


> saved by a nice hobbit girl


I believe that there will be a hobbit-girl named Elanor "Nori" Brandyfoot. If you watch the teaser-trailer on Amazon, then there is a list of characters shown.


LadyGaladriel1980 said:


> nothing for true fans ... fantasy trash for teenagers.


What if you're both? I mean, both a teenager _and _a true fan.


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## Olorgando (Mar 5, 2022)

Goldilocks Gamgee said:


> What if you're both? I mean, both a teenager _and _a true fan.


I have the feeling that such a combination does not exist in the (very limited) imagination of media executives.
From reading I've done about people who had dealings with this bunch (the three biographies about Douglas Adams ("The Hitch-hiker's Guide to the Galaxy") are a treasure trove) they don't deal with real people in their thinking. Focus groups, market segments etc. are some of the buzzwords. And if a lot of what's in film theaters and on TV these days seems so much generic rehashing (and re-rehashing and ...) it's because they see their audience generically. None of us exist for them, they have these visions (probably the kind they'd need to seek professional help for 😈) of, say, the generic teenager (probably split into male and female sub-groups), the generic 'tween, boomer, gen Y, Y, Z and the rest of the alphabet ... and probably other groups we've never heard of.

I can imagine that for any production aimed to have a wider appeal, they might go "well, we'll need this for the gen X segment, this for the boomers (though we old codgers might be falling off their radar screens by now), this for the _{whatevers}_.

Kind of like randomly chucking bits of food into a pot of stew. The finished product could end up having a very odd taste ... 🤢


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## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 5, 2022)

Goldilocks Gamgee said:


> I believe that there will be a hobbit-girl named Elanor "Nori" Brandyfoot. If you watch the teaser-trailer on Amazon, then there is a list of characters shown.
> 
> What if you're both? I mean, both a teenager _and _a true fan.


I didnt mean the Teenagers which are Tolkienfans like you are. I mean the lot of Teenagers, which never heard about Tolkien and watched only Marvel-Superhero-Powerwoman-Trashmovies. For them the serie maybe bring fun, but for all others it is not worth to watch.


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## Halasían (Mar 5, 2022)

So... '_anybody who_ is open-minded enough to watch the series can't be a "true fan" of Tolkien'? I call Bee Ess on that whole mindset.


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## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 5, 2022)

Halasían said:


> So... '_anybody who_ is open-minded enough to watch the series can't be a "true fan" of Tolkien'? I call Bee Ess on that whole mindset.


For true fans of tolkien this serie is a totally desaster: Black dwarfes and elves and hobbits, and Galadriel as warrior princess in a typical aggressiv Marvel Superherowomanstyle. And a naked Meteor Man, and strange man with winngs....this are really already enough reasons to puke.
This Serie has only the Name from Tolkien, but there is no Tolkien inside.
It is a big shame, that Amazon ruins Tolkiens great books in sucht a disgusting way.
I love Tolkiens books so much, that i cant watch this serie, because true Tolkienfans can only getting disappointed. I am really totally shocked, how Amazon spit on Tolkiens Name.


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## Halasían (Mar 5, 2022)

LadyGaladriel1980 said:


> For true fans of tolkien this serie is a totally desaster: Black dwarfes and elves and hobbits, and Galadriel as warrior princess in a typical aggressiv Marvel Superherowomanstyle. And a naked Meteor Man, and strange man with winngs....this are really already enough reasons to puke.
> This Serie has only the Name from Tolkien, but there is no Tolkien inside.
> It is a big shame, that Amazon ruins Tolkiens great books in sucht a disgusting way.
> I love Tolkiens books so much, that i cant watch this serie, because true Tolkienfans can only getting disappointed. I am really totally shocked, how Amazon spit on Tolkiens Name.


Ok. It is however, just one's opinion, not a fact.


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## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 5, 2022)

Halasían said:


> Ok. It is however, just one's opinion, not a fact.


No, it is a fact. there is a black elv, a black hobbit woman and a black dwarf princess in the serie, and that you could see in the trailer. That is totally absurd, because in Middle Earth there was no black elves, dwarfes or Hobbits. I have nothing against black actors, but they dont fit for playing elves, dwarfes or hobbits. Why they didnt take the black actors for playing the Haradrim, which had in Tolkiens discribing black skin?
And the naked Meteor Man was also getting showed in the trailer, also this man with the wings on the back, and also Galadriel with ice cold eyes, armored, and with a sword...that is not Tolkiens Galadriel, it is a absurd creation of something, from which the Amazon producers think, that it is feminism. But i dont agree with them, for me sword fighting women has nothing to do with emanzipation.....it is horrible, to see in all movies and series this warrior woman in this days. 
The Amazon producers destroy totally the Galadriel which Tolkien has created, and create a boring Warrior-Woman, which is average for this modern day, one of a lot of similar warrior-woman in other movies and series. 
A lot of fan was shocked from the trailer, because the trailer was really horrible and the producers dont create a Middle Earth, in which fans can feel hat home, like Peter Jackson did.


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## Halasían (Mar 5, 2022)

LadyGaladriel1980 said:


> No, it is a fact. there is a black elv, a black hobbit woman and a black dwarf princess in the serie, and that you could see in the trailer. That is totally absurd, because in Middle Earth there was no black elves, dwarfes or Hobbits. I have nothing against black actors, but they dont fit for playing elves, dwarfes or hobbits. Why they didnt take the black actors for playing the Haradrim, which had in Tolkiens discribing black skin?
> And the naked Meteor Man was also getting showed in the trailer, also this man with the wings on the back, and also Galadriel with ice cold eyes, armored, and with a sword...that is not Tolkiens Galadriel, it is a absurd creation of something, from which the Amazon producers think, that it is feminism. But i dont agree with them, for me sword fighting women has nothing to do with emanzipation.....it is horrible, to see in all movies and series this warrior woman in this days.
> The Amazon producers destroy totally the Galadriel which Tolkien has created, and create a boring Warrior-Woman, which is average for this modern day, one of a lot of similar warrior-woman in other movies and series.
> A lot of fan was shocked from the trailer, because the trailer was really horrible and the producers dont create a Middle Earth, in which fans can feel hat home, like Peter Jackson did.


No, it's an opinion to say that one can't be a "true" Tolkien fan and also watch this series, or if one plans on watching the series they can't be a "true" fan. People have different opinions and perspectives on things.

Is it exactly perfect? No, no adaptations are. I am just not willing to throw it out wholesale based on a few leaks and a trailer just because it doesn't fit into my perspective of the world of Middle Earth.


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## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 6, 2022)

Halasían said:


> No, it's an opinion to say that one can't be a "true" Tolkien fan and also watch this series, or if one plans on watching the series they can't be a "true" fan. People have different opinions and perspectives on things.
> 
> Is it exactly perfect? No, no adaptations are. I am just not willing to throw it out wholesale based on a few leaks and a trailer just because it doesn't fit into my perspective of the world of Middle Earth.


But this serie is no Tolkien adaption, they use Tolkiens Name, and the Names of his characteres, but there is nothing else from the books.
I am sure, that for the Tolkienfans who watch this serie will come no Middle Earth feeling while watching, because it is just another average Diversity-Serie like "Bridgerton"
Well, if fans watch this, it can only disappoint them. Peter Jackson was a Lord of the Ring fans, but the Amazon producers only want to make big money with the serie and the merchandise products of it. You can see in the trailer, that they dont know very much about Middle Earth.
I really cant understand, why they didnt take the black actors to play Haradrim.....the black people dont fit for playing elves for dwarfes, but they fit good to plan men. Why they make black elves and dwarfes, that absolutely dont fit.
If i watch a Lord of the Rings serie, i want to see Middle earth, and not a strange copy of our modern society. Most people watch fantasy to escape from reality and enjoy a few hours in an other world, and not to see our modern reality.


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## Goldilocks Gamgee (Mar 6, 2022)

Language.


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## Aldarion (Mar 6, 2022)

Halasían said:


> No, it's an opinion to say that one can't be a "true" Tolkien fan and also watch this series, or if one plans on watching the series they can't be a "true" fan. People have different opinions and perspectives on things.
> 
> Is it exactly perfect? No, no adaptations are. I am just not willing to throw it out wholesale based on a few leaks and a trailer just because it doesn't fit into my perspective of the world of Middle Earth.


Problem here is that Amazon has *made it very clear that they do not want to make an adaptation*. They want to make their own, completely original, propaganda work, and then use Tolkien's IP to promote their work.


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## Annatar (Mar 6, 2022)

Goldilocks Gamgee said:


> a hobbit-girl named Elanor "Nori" Brandyfoot.



Has anyone ever thought a bit about this name?

"Elanor" is the name of a flower from Lorien, which only becomes known to a few hobbits at the end of the Third Age. Sam named his daughter after it. So this can't possibly be a plausible first name for a Hobbit girl of the Second Age (and also of the 3rd before Sam's stay in Lorien), unless it's an absolutely strange coincidence.

In "Brandyfoot" there is an allusion to the Brandywine River. This is a river that only became known to the Hobbits in the Third Age when the Shire was settled.
If it were not an allusion to the Brandywine, that would now be a doubly absolutely strange coincidence.

For me, in any case, further proof that the series creators have only superficially familiarized themselves with the matter.


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## Halasían (Mar 6, 2022)

LadyGaladriel1980 said:


> But this serie is no Tolkien adaption, they use Tolkiens Name, and the Names of his characteres, but there is nothing else from the books.
> I am sure, that for the Tolkienfans who watch this serie will come no Middle Earth feeling while watching, because it is just another average Diversity-Serie like "Bridgerton"
> Well, if fans watch this, it can only disappoint them. Peter Jackson was a Lord of the Ring fans, but the Amazon producers only want to make big money with the serie and the merchandise products of it. You can see in the trailer, that they dont know very much about Middle Earth.
> I really cant understand, why they didnt take the black actors to play Haradrim.....the black people dont fit for playing elves for dwarfes, but they fit good to plan men. Why they make black elves and dwarfes, that absolutely dont fit.
> If i watch a Lord of the Rings serie, i want to see Middle earth, and not a strange copy of our modern society. Most people watch fantasy to escape from reality and enjoy a few hours in an other world, and not to see our modern reality.


Yet, the Tolkien Estate IS involved with this project, and had zero involvement with Peter Jackson's project. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Not all Tolkien fans march in lockstep with this mindset. For that mindset to proclaim the _THEY _are the only 'true' Tolkien fans is absolute rubbish. Carry on.


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## Aldarion (Mar 6, 2022)

Halasían said:


> Yet, the Tolkien Estate IS involved with this project, and had zero involvement with Peter Jackson's project. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
> Not all Tolkien fans march in lockstep with this mindset. For that mindset to proclaim the _THEY _are the only 'true' Tolkien fans is absolute rubbish. Carry on.


Yet involvement of the Tolkien Estate does not matter. What matters is only how well creators of the show understand Tolkien's vision, and they had repeatedly shown themselves to be completely ignorant of everything that was not in Jackson's adaptations.


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## Annatar (Mar 6, 2022)

If I were a conspiracy theorist, I would claim that Halasian is somehow connected to theonering.net, which is the worst and probably best known shill site... 😜 🧙‍♂️ 😹
He also seems to be a PJ hater, which of course makes it all the funnier that he so fanatically defends that Amazon fanfiction trash.

But maybe we should just give him some time? As soon as the series is out, he might mutate into the biggest hater ever, while we then say that it didn't turn out as bad as expected. 🤣

In this thread's poll, a total of 20% are currently optimistic and 80% are pessimistic. Halasian and Erestor Arcamen seem to be the _advocati diaboli_. I think it's good that there are also some of these. But you may end up being the most disappointed. Will you be able to admit that after our discussions here then?


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## Goldilocks Gamgee (Mar 6, 2022)

Annatar said:


> In this thread's poll, a total of 20% are currently optimistic and 80% are pessimistic.


I'm glad there are at least 20% optimistic members. Otherwise, there would be nothing here to argue/explain our opinions about!


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## Halasían (Mar 7, 2022)

Annatar said:


> If I were a conspiracy theorist, I would claim that Halasian is somehow connected to theonering.net, which is the worst and probably best known shill site... 😜 🧙‍♂️ 😹
> He also seems to be a PJ hater, which of course makes it all the funnier that he so fanatically defends that Amazon fanfiction trash.
> 
> But maybe we should just give him some time? As soon as the series is out, he might mutate into the biggest hater ever, while we then say that it didn't turn out as bad as expected. 🤣
> ...


Anna, thanks for your amusing post. I'm not "frantically defending the Amazon trash", but merely waiting for the finished product to make judgements. Apparently not having an opinion about it is "_advocati diaboli" 🤣 _

Whether it's good or bad won't affect me any, but I doubt any of you who have already decided it's crap won't think it's not that bad'. I would be surprised though that any of you actually watch it. It is a bit tiring to have to wade through the constant heaps of dung grunted out on something that hasn't even been shown yet. Someone has to shovel a path through it.  

Oh yes, It is amusing somewhat seeing you all get your panties in a wad about it, and it is fun to poke sticks at you lot occasionally. Maybe you'll get upset that I didn't use your exact username or something.... who knows.

As I said many times, one has PJ to thank for making wholesale changes to Tolkien's work. He even had a complete book story. The mold to do what one will was cast. This project was always going to be fanficcy in my mind, so am not surprised much at what was presented. As for TORn, never been on that site. I did get banned from TORc in '03. You all would probably love that site these days since its boss Jonathan is the one tweeting the @TORC stuff being quoted by the comicbookguy.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Mar 7, 2022)

Annatar said:


> If I were a conspiracy theorist, I would claim that Halasian is somehow connected to theonering.net, which is the worst and probably best known shill site... 😜 🧙‍♂️ 😹
> He also seems to be a PJ hater, which of course makes it all the funnier that he so fanatically defends that Amazon fanfiction trash.
> 
> But maybe we should just give him some time? As soon as the series is out, he might mutate into the biggest hater ever, while we then say that it didn't turn out as bad as expected. 🤣
> ...


I'm definitely not at all advocating for the show one way or the other and if I come across that way, it's not my intention. I'm just waiting until it actually comes out to pass judgement. I won't judge it based off of a < 2 minute trailer, some still shots and stupid marketing (the super fans thing) that a billion dollar company did. I also am coming into it expecting a non-canon tv series that's influenced by Tolkien's works that probably won't be very Tolkien-ish. If I don't like it, I'll just turn it off and carry on with my life happily, forgetting it exists and instead reading Tolkien's books, which will remain the iconic stories that they are.

Of course others' experiences and reactions are different and that's completely OK, people are allowed to have their own opinions and react to things differently. If people want to criticize it, that's fine as long as it's constructive criticism. What bothers me is when people start complaining about their race, religion, sexual orientation, etc. Yeah maybe Tolkien based his works off of old England but still, it's a work of FICTION, there's no history for it to be historically accurate. If amazon wants to use non-white actors and actresses for some parts, big deal, it won't ruin my life or Tolkien's original works, so I see no reason to complain about that at all and that type of discussion is not welcome at TTF. We're here to discuss the plot and content of the show, not whack job conspiracy theories. If that's what people want to discuss, I suggest going to Reddit and/or other forums.


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## Aldarion (Mar 7, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> We're here to discuss the plot and content of the show, not whack job conspiracy theories.


First, they are not "whack job conspiracy theories". Literally everything is used for the sake of ideological propaganda today, do you really expect Tolkien can escape that?
Second, do you really think that creators' ideology will not impact the "plot and the contents" of the show? They are literally hiring people based on how politically acceptable they are - their "Tolkien Scholar" has no clue about Tolkien or anything he had written, but _has _a degree in "diversity studies" or whatever that crap was, I forgot the exact term.

You cannot allow discussion of Amazon's show and forbid discussion of politics, because, at least going by what has been revealed this far, the show itself is literally _nothing but_ politics.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Mar 7, 2022)

Aldarion said:


> You cannot allow discussion of Amazon's show and forbid discussion of politics, because, at least going by what has been revealed this far, the show itself is literally _nothing but_ politics.


Well we do have a rule against politics and again, if you don't like it you're welcome to leave and post on other sites. The only reason it's being made political is because people are making it so. They can call it Tolkien all they want but again, doesn't change the books Tolkien himself wrote, won't lead to his books being banned. 

Of course the creator's ideology is impacting the plot of the show. And again, if I don't like it I'll turn it off, it's not a hard concept. Other people can do the same.


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## Aldarion (Mar 7, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> The only reason it's being made political is because people are making it so.


"The people" in this case being show's creators, but ok.


Erestor Arcamen said:


> They can call it Tolkien all they want but again, doesn't change the books Tolkien himself wrote, won't lead to his books being banned.


It does however show clear disrespect. In fact, I think I would be fully justified in claiming that the creators _hate_ Tolkien, and are merely using his IP due to its popularity.

And misrepresentation is a problem. How many people do you think will see the show compared to how many will read the books?


Erestor Arcamen said:


> Of course the creator's ideology is impacting the plot of the show. And again, if I don't like it I'll turn it off, it's not a hard concept. Other people can do the same.


Turning it off is easy. But how do you protect Tolkien's work from blatant disrespect?


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## HALETH✒🗡 (Mar 7, 2022)

Aldarion said:


> But how do you protect Tolkien's work from blatant disrespect?


And how do you protect Tolkien's work? What I mean is that if you know the way, maybe I'd like to join. On the one hand, we can't do almost anything. On the other hand, "even the smallest person can change the course of the future".


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## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 7, 2022)

Goldilocks Gamgee said:


> I'm glad there are at least 20% optimistic members. Otherwise, there would be nothing here to argue/explain our opinions about!


But 80% are not optimistic, and that has reasons. I dont know what world the Amazon producers create in this serie, but it is definitive not Middle Earth. It is an absurd, ridiculous warrior-woman and Diversity-forced world....this is not Middle earth, it is a ridiculous copy of our modern society......and that fits not into a world like Middle earth, where there was not so much Diversity.


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## Melkor (Mar 7, 2022)

I am not optimistic or pesimistic about this show. I'll just wait for the first few episodes and than I'll judge. But Galadriel with Fëanorian star on the armor make me laugh . And black silvan elf too. This is how silvan elf looks like:


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## Aldarion (Mar 7, 2022)

HALETH✒🗡 said:


> And how do you protect Tolkien's work? What I mean is that if you know the way, maybe I'd like to join. On the one hand, we can't do almost anything. On the other hand, "even the smallest person can change the course of the future".



The only way I can think of is:
1) informing people that there are, in fact, the books
and
2) informing them of what the adaptations get wrong

Which is, in my view, the main value of all the complaining. Yes, it will not change anything - but it may make at least some people aware that there is a problem, that the adaptations are not faithful to the books, and hopefully make them want to read the books themselves.

Sure, I am doing a lot of complaining here, but it is nothing compared to what I am doing over on my blog.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Mar 7, 2022)

I see from some of the posts here that my expectation, posted on another thread, that "not true to the movies" would be one of the criticisms leveled at the Amazon series, has turned out to be true.

This is somewhat ironic, considering the "Xena/amazon/warrior woman" complaints were already being made after the first film came out:








Book Arwen Movie Arwen


In the books Arwens role is short and sweet, although Peter Jackson kinda went over board with the arwen role, i guess because it was Liv tyler, anyway I gotta go




www.thetolkienforum.com





That's just one of many examples.


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## Uminya (Mar 7, 2022)

I'll be controversial and say that the presence of dwarves and elves played by black actors is likely to be the only highlight of this whole mess of a series. :^)


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## Halasían (Mar 7, 2022)

Well, _that_ all was amusing to read. 🤣 


Erestor Arcamen said:


> I'm definitely not at all advocating for the show one way or the other and if I come across that way, it's not my intention. I'm just waiting until it actually comes out to pass judgement. I won't judge it based off of a < 2 minute trailer, some still shots and stupid marketing (the super fans thing) that a billion dollar company did. I also am coming into it expecting a non-canon tv series that's influenced by Tolkien's works that probably won't be very Tolkien-ish. If I don't like it, I'll just turn it off and carry on with my life happily, forgetting it exists and instead reading Tolkien's books, which will remain the iconic stories that they are.
> 
> Of course others' experiences and reactions are different and that's completely OK, people are allowed to have their own opinions and react to things differently. If people want to criticize it, that's fine as long as it's constructive criticism. What bothers me is when people start complaining about their race, religion, sexual orientation, etc. Yeah maybe Tolkien based his works off of old England but still, it's a work of FICTION, there's no history for it to be historically accurate. If amazon wants to use non-white actors and actresses for some parts, big deal, it won't ruin my life or Tolkien's original works, so I see no reason to complain about that at all and that type of discussion is not welcome at TTF. We're here to discuss the plot and content of the show, not whack job conspiracy theories. If that's what people want to discuss, I suggest going to Reddit and/or other forums.


Very well said and much more diplomatic than me. I still can't understand why the extreme spite being poured out en-masse on a project that has yet to air is warranted. Maybe they are afraid they might _like_ it.


Aldarion said:


> First, they are not "whack job conspiracy theories". Literally everything is used for the sake of ideological propaganda today, do you really expect Tolkien can escape that?
> Second, do you really think that creators' ideology will not impact the "plot and the contents" of the show? They are literally hiring people based on how politically acceptable they are - their "Tolkien Scholar" has no clue about Tolkien or anything he had written, but _has _a degree in "diversity studies" or whatever that crap was, I forgot the exact term.
> 
> You cannot allow discussion of Amazon's show and forbid discussion of politics, because, at least going by what has been revealed this far, the show itself is literally _nothing but_ politics.


That post is the most hilarious. I'm afraid they ARE "whack job conspiracy theories" mainly brought on by people who think Amazon and Bezos are the devil incarnate, and the 'politics' are clearly being brought in by those who _perceive_ (or wish to perceive) that the producers are all about being political. It says a lot about the people who think it is the 'W' word.



Aldarion said:


> "The people" in this case being show's creators, but ok.


No, it's the whingers making it so.


Aldarion said:


> Turning it off is easy. But how do you protect Tolkien's work from blatant disrespect?


 🤣 THAT is one of the most laughable things ever said. Tolkien Estate = Bad moneygrubbers. Self-proclaimed 'true fans' = "protecting Tolkien's work from blatant disrespect" 🤣


Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I see from some of the posts here that my expectation, posted on another thread, that "not true to the movies" would be one of the criticisms leveled at the Amazon series, has turned out to be true


Indeed! The 'good old days' 🤣

Well, that was fun. see ya later.


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## Aldarion (Mar 8, 2022)

Halasían said:


> That post is the most hilarious. I'm afraid they ARE "whack job conspiracy theories" mainly brought on by people who think Amazon and Bezos are the devil incarnate, and the 'politics' are clearly being brought in by those who _perceive_ (or wish to perceive) that the producers are all about being political. It says a lot about the people who think it is the 'W' word.



You are free to ignore reality all you want, but that doesn't change the facts. Just look at the "superfans" video (British one at any rate). It is a clear Amazon production, and those so-called "superfans" spend half the video talking about politics. More importantly, they know about Tolkien's work about as much as the Amazon's so-called Tolkien scholar does, which is *absolutely nothing*.



Halasían said:


> THAT is one of the most laughable things ever said. Tolkien Estate = Bad moneygrubbers. Self-proclaimed 'true fans' = "protecting Tolkien's work from blatant disrespect"



You can laugh all you want, it doesn't change the facts. With Christopher Tolkien dead, the only people left who actually care about Tolkien's work are the fans.


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## HALETH✒🗡 (Mar 8, 2022)

Aldarion said:


> The only way I can think of is:
> 1) informing people that there are, in fact, the books
> and
> 2) informing them of what the adaptations get wrong


New members who haven't read the books may join the forum after watching the series. So, TTF may have such mission.


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## Aldarion (Mar 8, 2022)

HALETH✒🗡 said:


> New members who haven't read the books may join the forum after watching the series. So, TTF may have such mission.



I certainly hope so.


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## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 8, 2022)

Melkor said:


> I am not optimistic or pesimistic about this show. I'll just wait for the first few episodes and than I'll judge. But Galadriel with Fëanorian star on the armor make me laugh . And black silvan elf too. This is how silvan elf looks like:


Not only the black elv is horrible...the actor who plays Galadriels brother Finrod, looks totally old, absolutely not like an typical elv. The actor must be around 50 years or so....this really dont fit to play Galadriels brother.
I dont want to see black elves, and i also dont want to see elves, which are getting played by 50 years old actors.

In the german forum they say, this is Finrod in the serie:
I dont like him, i think he looks to old for an elv, and this short hair i totally hate:



https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/lUf8c9NHAn7r8NMnmfpvyjWKh0Y=/0x0:2358x1162/1920x0/filters:focal(0x0:2358x1162):format(webp):no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/23239883/Screen_Shot_2022_02_13_at_8.54.28_PM.png



For me Elves must have long hair, elves with short hair are as absurd as black elves.


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## Annatar (Mar 8, 2022)

Halasían said:


> Anna [...] it is fun to poke sticks at you lot occasionally. Maybe you'll get upset that I didn't use your exact username or something.... who knows.


So you admit that your mission here is predominantly to provoke other people. But you'll have to come up with more than that. And as for the username: Am I called MrNumbers? Where is he, anyway? Have you already successfully scared him away?



> I'm not "frantically defending the Amazon trash", but merely waiting for the finished product to make judgements.


If someone punches you in the stomach with his fist and spits in your face, do you still invite him to dinner because he might be nice in the end? 🤣



LadyGaladriel1980 said:


> In the german forum



If it's the forum, which I think it is, I can only advise you one thing:






Because this place is evil.

Seriously, more than 50% of the people there have serious mental problems.

That forum is apparently also run by people who once liked Tolkien in their youth and now hate everything Tolkien stands for. However, they do not realize this themselves, which leads to the fact that everything they say seems completely contradictory and insane.
Almost reminds me of George Orwell's "_doublethink" _in 1984.


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## Melkor (Mar 8, 2022)

LadyGaladriel1980 said:


> Not only the black elv is horrible...the actor who plays Galadriels brother Finrod, looks totally old, absolutely not like an typical elv. The actor must be around 50 years or so....this really dont fit to play Galadriels brother.
> I dont want to see black elves, and i also dont want to see elves, which are getting played by 50 years old actors.
> 
> In the german forum they say, this is Finrod in the serie:
> ...


Wait a minute... Finrod? Finrod died 465 FA in dungeons of Tol-in-Gaurhoth, when he saved Beren's live. So he is long dead (or more likely reincarnated, because in The Silmarillion is told that he was reincarnated after a short time, but he never returned to Middle-Earth as Glorfindel did) in the times when Rings of power is set in. And Finrod isn't even on the cast list. This is probably some hoax.


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## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 8, 2022)

Melkor said:


> Wait a minute... Finrod? Finrod died 465 FA in dungeons of Tol-in-Gaurhoth, when he saved Beren's live. So he is long dead (or more likely reincarnated, because in The Silmarillion is told that he was reincarnated after a short time, but he never returned to Middle-Earth as Glorfindel did) in the times when Rings of power is set in. And Finrod isn't even on the cast list. This is probably some hoax.


Well, this Amazon-producers dont care about that. I am sure, they didnt even know, that Galadriel has four brothers, which all died in fight against Morgoth or Sauron. In the german forum they write, that that actor on the picture is Finrod, more i cant say about this. And when i see, how horrible the rest of the serie is(a warrior-Galadriel in a horrible Marvel-Superherowoman Way,, black elves, hobbits and dwarfes, a meteor man) i really think, that it is also possible, that this is Finrod. I am sure, in the series they dont care very much about what Tolkien write in the Silmarillion.


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## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 8, 2022)

Annatar said:


> If it's the forum, which I think it is, I can only advise you one thing:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know that, i only read somtimes there, they had banned my account there, only because i critisized the black elves and dwarfes, the horrible Amazon-Marvel-Superwomanstyle Galadriel, they call me racist, only because i dont want to see elves black, because they arent black in Tolkiens books. A lot of the german fans praised this horrible series, only because there are black elves and dwarfes, that is really ridiculous. I really prefer this forum here, here are the true Tolkienfans.


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## Annatar (Mar 8, 2022)

LadyGaladriel1980 said:


> I am sure, in the series they dont care very much about what Tolkien write in the Silmarillion.


I don't think the showrunners have read The Silmarillion at all. At most, they skimmed it, but they didn't understand it. They also don't have the film rights for it. (I'd also be surprised if they had read The Lord of the Rings, by the way. But that's just speculation.) 
Therefore, they're not interested in it at all. Amazon also doesn't think book fans are relevant to their financial success, as evidenced by their perverted version of Wheel of Time, among other things, but of course already by the trailer, the Vanity Fair article, and the grotesque "superfans" video.
So it's all about creating a bombastic-looking, but in reality empty shell to attract as many new Prime subscribers as possible in a mass-compatible way (from Amazon's point of view).


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## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 8, 2022)

Annatar said:


> I don't think the showrunners have read The Silmarillion at all. At most, they skimmed it, but they didn't understand it. They also don't have the film rights for it. (I'd also be surprised if they had read The Lord of the Rings, by the way. But that's just speculation.)
> Therefore, they're not interested in it at all. Amazon also doesn't think book fans are relevant to their financial success, as evidenced by their perverted version of Wheel of Time, among other things, but of course already by the trailer, the Vanity Fair article, and the grotesque "superfans" video.
> So it's all about creating a bombastic-looking, but in reality empty shell to attract as many new Prime subscribers as possible in a mass-compatible way (from Amazon's point of view).


Yes, that is a very big difference to Peter Jackson which was a big Lord of the Ring fan, who gives his heart blood in it, because he love it, and that you can feel in every second of the movies 💕 
The Amazon producers do only use Tolkiens name to make a serie about Diversity, a horrible, boring thing like "Wheel of time"; which books was great, but the serie is so horrible, that you cant watch it. 
And because of this empty shell i will not watch the series, i prefer to watch Peter Jacksons movies again and again, everytime i watch them, i totally enjoy it, and feel totally like beeing in Middle earth. 
My opinion is: Only a true fan like Peter Jackson can create something, that fans can love. 
Amazon-producers produce only Fantasy mainstream, an average thing from the Hollywood-assembly-line.


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## Halasían (Mar 8, 2022)

Annatar said:


> So you admit that your mission here is ... *the rest is nonsense*


 🤣 I'm not "on a mission" of any sort. I _am _mildly entertained by you lot here though so thanks for that.
It became clear the 'discussion' of the Rings of Power project here is clearly an echo-chamber of a certain mindset. So-be-it.
I have _actual_ balanced in-depth discussions about this project on other sites.


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## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 8, 2022)

Halasían said:


> 🤣 I'm not "on a mission" of any sort. I _am _mildly entertained by you lot here though so thanks for that.
> It became clear the 'discussion' of the Rings of Power project here is clearly an echo-chamber of a certain mindset. So-be-it.
> I have _actual_ balanced in-depth discussions about this project on other sites.


Well, if the Amazon producers dont produce for Tolkienfans, they should not wonder, if Tolkiens Fans dont watch the serie. Most Tolkienfans want to see Middle earth like Tolkien write it in his books and like Peter Jackson show it in his movies.
But this doesnt matter for the Amazon producers, which prefer to make a second "Wheel of time" or "Game of thrones", that is not what fans expect from a Lord of the Rings serie.
And this black elv, or the black dwarf princess, that is totally ridiculous, and has nothing to do with Tolkien, the only motivation to put this in the serie was for the producers to make diversity-propaganda.


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## Halasían (Mar 8, 2022)

LadyGaladriel1980 said:


> Well, if the Amazon producers dont produce for Tolkienfans, they should not wonder, if Tolkiens Fans dont watch the serie. Most Tolkienfans want to see Middle earth like Tolkien write it in his books and like Peter Jackson show it in his movies.
> But this doesnt matter for the Amazon producers, which prefer to make a second "Wheel of time" or "Game of thrones", that is not what fans expect from a Lord of the Rings serie.
> And this black elv, or the black dwarf princess, that is totally ridiculous, and has nothing to do with Tolkien, the only motivation to put this in the serie was for the producers to make diversity-propaganda.


Okay.


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## Annatar (Mar 8, 2022)

LadyGaladriel1980 said:


> they had banned my account there, only because i critisized the black elves and dwarfes, the horrible Amazon-Marvel-Superwomanstyle Galadriel, they call me racist, only because i dont want to see elves black, because they arent black in Tolkiens books. A lot of the german fans praised this horrible series, only because there are black elves and dwarfes, that is really ridiculous. I really prefer this forum here, here are the true Tolkienfans.


🤣 🤣 🤣
Yes, nowadays if you criticize a cast for being as "colorful" as possible, you are immediately considered a racist in certain circles, no matter what the context. That's unfortunately the case, although that's a very superficial and stupid way of looking at it. You always have to see how someone argues first. But these are bigots, and the moderators in this German forum are definitely pursuing an agenda and are unable to get out of their bubble. It's very sad, and you could get very angry about it, but it's not worth it. I also know someone who is definitely not homophobic, but was kicked out of there for writing that he felt gay elves were not in the spirit of Tolkien.
And I myself was banned there for providing arguments why dwarves in Middle-earth, and dwarves in general who live most of their lives underground, most likely cannot have black skin unless Aule explicitly created dark-skinned ones out of arbitrariness. (But that was not the only reason, I also had the audacity to complain about the Orwellian German gender-"newspeak". 😹 )

I also know that many users of that forum who used to like Tolkien's works (or probably just the PJ movies) when they were younger, now believe that Tolkien was more or less a racist. Because they're shallow, manipulated, and not particularly smart. But they also believe that Amazon has the right to "correct" much of what they find too racist or homophobic in Tolkien's original. At the same time these people try to reinterpret the male friendship between Sam and Frodo or Gimli and Legolas as gay etc...

It's nonsense for me, but still legitimate to represent this opinion. However, it is not legitimate for the moderators of an official Tolkien forum to declare this a dogma and throw out anyone who has a different opinion. Even if it's now unfortunately the only remaining German-speaking Tolkien forum, it's in any case not representative of all German Tolkien fans, but at most of a certain, extremist faction that censors and silences everyone else.

Anyway, I think that you should first listen to everyone carefully before making a judgment. And even then, one should be maximally tolerant of dissenting opinions. Because that's what discussion forums are for, as long as it remains reasonably civilized and no one becomes abusive or radical (although sometimes I think a certain degree of sarcasm is appropriate 😜 ).
I also find all the participants here great, who pursue a different point of view than I do. Without you all this would be pointless! In the end, it's about everyone being able to broaden their horizons, accept arguments from the opposite side, and perhaps find better arguments for their own position as a result. Censorship and banning only harm both sides.


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## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 8, 2022)

Annatar said:


> 🤣 🤣 🤣
> Yes, nowadays if you criticize a cast for being as "colorful" as possible, you are immediately considered a racist in certain circles, no matter what the context. That's unfortunately the case, although that's a very superficial and stupid way of looking at it. You always have to see how someone argues first. But these are bigots, and the moderators in this German forum are definitely pursuing an agenda and are unable to get out of their bubble. It's very sad, and you could get very angry about it, but it's not worth it. I also know someone who is definitely not homophobic, but was kicked out of there for writing that he felt gay elves were not in the spirit of Tolkien.
> And I myself was banned there for providing arguments why dwarves in Middle-earth, and dwarves in general who live most of their lives underground, most likely cannot have black skin unless Aule explicitly created dark-skinned ones out of arbitrariness. (But that was not the only reason, I also had the audacity to complain about the Orwellian German gender-"newspeak". 😹 )
> 
> ...


one of the moderatores in the German forum is bisexual, and she wanted even to have bisexual characteres in Middle earth. i had a lot of argues with her, because i dont want to see that in Middle Earth.
in Germany you have it very difficult, if you have a dissentic opinion, but i dont care about that and say always what i think.
i was very positive surprised, when i come here, and write, what i dislike on the series...in the german forum the same i have written here, brings me a very big I had a role playing game with some people there, and they write, they will quit this game, only because i have an other opinion about the serie, they cant endure that.
Here in the forum i feel very good, because i am free here to write my opinion without calling a racist or womanhater(i am a woman myself) but in the German forum they think, i dislike woman, only because i have a problem with the Galadriel in the Amazon-serie.
Here writing is joy, because you dont have to have fear, getting banned, only because you write what you think about the serie.
In the german forum a lot of users write, that they really like the black elv, if you write anything critical about that, they are getting aggressiv there. So i am really happy that i have now this forum here, in which the discussions are more free.
In the German forum they had even a Thread, with the Theme "Racism in Tolkiens Work" 😆
Well, i cant detect any racism in Tolkiens books.
Here in the forum it is possible to discuss about the serie, without argue, it is peaceful here, everyone can say what he really thinks, that is very good.
Since i know this forum here, i am happy, that i banned in the German forum, because then i hafe discover this forum here.


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## Annatar (Mar 8, 2022)

LadyGaladriel1980 said:


> In the German forum they had even a Thread, with the Theme "Racism in Tolkiens Work"



I think that's quite legitimate, because you should be able to discuss anything freely.

The only annoying thing there is that the moderators throw out everyone who isn't as radical and stupid as they are. But I also know the thread you mean, and it seems that only old, former teachers are discussing this topic and in truth they just want to express how morally superior they are. 🤣

There used to be a much larger German forum, but it had to close because allegedly it was constantly being sued for copyright issues (?).

Well, I guess forums have actually had their day anyway. Young people no longer use such media, at most reddit...

Here, too, it seems that mainly veteran mercenaries are on the move.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Mar 8, 2022)

We have some young folks here. 😁


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## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 8, 2022)

Annatar said:


> I think that's quite legitimate, because you should be able to discuss anything freely.
> 
> The only annoying thing there is that the moderators throw out everyone who isn't as radical and stupid as they are. But I also know the thread you mean, and it seems that only old, former teachers are discussing this topic and in truth they just want to express how morally superior they are. 🤣
> 
> ...


Yes, that was the Elbenwaldforum, that was the best fan site in Germany, and i totally miss it. The german Tolkienforum was a community, where i never feel at home as a fan. And yes, the discussions in the German Tolkienforum was, what a pitty, very political, because the users there cry "rassism"; when someone says, he want to see the typical Tolkien elves. 
And, if you had an other opinion there than them, then they bullied you and quit role playing games with you...i had a role playing game and people go out of it, only because i write, that i dont want to see black elves, and i also dont want to see bisexual elves. 
I dont like reddit, twitter and such things, i belong to the forum Generation, social Media is not my thing, so i am happy, to find that forum here. In germany there is now only the german Tolkienforum, all other forums (there was also "Herr der Ringe Film.de") have closed the last years 
Here still are very much fans who love Tolkiens books and Peter Jacksons Movies, that is really a joy for me. Beeing in this forum feels like beeing back in 2002, when i first joined the Elbenwaldforum, at my first months as fan


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## Annatar (Mar 8, 2022)

LadyGaladriel1980 said:


> Here in the forum it is possible to discuss about the serie, without argue, it is peaceful here, everyone can say what he really thinks, that is very good.


Yes, I like that too. But still it's quite obvious that the moderators here are not _completely _neutral. 😜

Nevertheless, I think that's totally okay in principle, since _even moderators_ may of course also have their own opinion and announce it. It only becomes dangerous when they use their views to censor others.

This is fortunatelly not the case here (from my perspective so far), and although I find it slightly problematic when moderators give very biased likes, this is at least justified in good arguments while the opposing party is listened to. Erestor, for example, provides some good arguments, while (common user) Halasian has difficulty with this and prefers to provoke rather than provide arguments. Nevertheless, I find it a bit unpleasant that Erestor as a moderator/admin gives likes to these provocations. But well, I'm very happy to accept that, as long as I'm not banned because of a contrary opinion. Basically, I'd only wish for more arguments for the other side. So far it seems to me that this has been more politically motivated.

With regard to this series, I therefore also find the otherwise very justified forum rule - that one should not politicize - critically. Because as already said, you can no longer deny that the series itself is extremely political. Well, even if you don't want to admit it now, it will become even stronger in the future. I think that you as moderators have to find a better solution, otherwise the discussion on the topic won't really work (although I see that you have already become a bit more tolerant).
From my point of view, you would have to clarify the question of how a series that WILL actually be very political should be discussed - especially when Tolkien's works are interpreted in a new or even contrary way. There really is no denying that this is the case.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Mar 8, 2022)

My point of view on the series is agnostic.

As far as this discussion goes, I suspect it, along with some of the others on the subject, has become repetitious to the point where many are simply ignoring it.


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## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 8, 2022)

Annatar said:


> Yes, I like that too. But still it's quite obvious that the moderators here are not _completely _neutral. 😜
> 
> Nevertheless, I think that's totally okay in principle, since _even moderators_ may of course also have their own opinion and announce it. It only becomes dangerous when they use their views to censor others.
> 
> ...


Yes, the serie is very political....and i really dislike that, because i prefer something like Peter Jacksons absolutely non-political movies, which was totally genious, entertaining and bring you deep into Middle Earth.
I boycott such series, i normally love totally series and movies which are playing in the 19th century England, but I boykott "Bridgerton" because there was a black Lord and a lot of black aristocracy. So i had prefer to watch older Jane Austen movies again, and not the serie.

In the real 19th century england there was no black people in the aristocracy. So this serie is totally absurd and has nothing to do with the real 19th century England.
It english aristocracy o the 19th century was a total white society to 100%. 
For me that is totally rediculous, it is the same als putting black elves into "Lord of the rings"; although the elves was not black.
In our days the producers sacrifice the art to the diversity, that is a really sad thing.
I think, producers should not ignore the historic facts or the facts in a fantasy book.
And yes, you are right: the serie is extremely political(and that a fantasy serie should not be) so how should you talk about the series without talking about that?


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## Annatar (Mar 10, 2022)

Unfortunately, you can no longer escape this thing. I've read that a RL male Viking lord has been replaced by a black woman in "Vikings: Valhalla". (She kept the man's name, though). This is just ridiculous. Genderswapping, history falsification and blackwashing deluxe! 🤡
This cultural appropriation is also extremely offensive to all Scandinavians.

However, I can only say the following about it:





"One does not simply *WOKE *into Mordor."



Edit: If you want details:


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## ZehnWaters (Mar 10, 2022)

Annatar said:


> This cultural appropriation is also extremely offensive to all Scandinavians.


It SHOULD be offensive to those they're trying to appeal to as well. "We'll just use literary blackface to place you into white people history since your history isn't good enough to make media about." 

It's like when they made Iceman from the X-Men gay out of nowhere. "Here, you like this, right?" No. No I don't. Why don't you just use Northstar, Anole, Greymalkin and others more often? "They're not good enough; you HAVE to have my hand-me-downs!"


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## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 10, 2022)

Annatar said:


> Unfortunately, you can no longer escape this thing. I've read that a RL male Viking lord has been replaced by a black woman in "Vikings: Valhalla". (She kept the man's name, though). This is just ridiculous. Genderswapping, history falsification and blackwashing deluxe! 🤡
> This cultural appropriation is also extremely offensive to all Scandinavians.
> 
> However, I can only say the following about it:
> ...


Sure you can escape this, if you watch older movies ad series, which are without woke-propaganda. I dont watch medival series or fantasy series which show black people, where black people cant be. There was no black vikings, so this Viking serie is also very ridiculous.
I will watch nothing, in which is blackwashing. There are enough older movies and series (like Peter Jacksons genious movies) i can watch, the choice on older things is very big.
And: I have stopped watching the Viking Series (not that with the black woman, it was an other namend Vikings) after the first episode, i which a little boy ask his father, how Sex works. I dont think, that Vikings know the word Sex and talked about that with their children...this serie was to sexualized for me.


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## HALETH✒🗡 (Mar 11, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> If people want to criticize it, that's fine as long as it's constructive criticism. What bothers me is when people start complaining about their race, religion, sexual orientation, etc. Yeah maybe Tolkien based his works off of old England but still, it's a work of FICTION, there's no history for it to be historically accurate. If amazon wants to use non-white actors and actresses for some parts, big deal, it won't ruin my life or Tolkien's original works, so I see no reason to complain about that at all and that type of discussion is not welcome at TTF. We're here to discuss the plot and content of the show, not whack job conspiracy theories. If that's what people want to discuss, I suggest going to Reddit and/or other forums.


I'm sorry but if somebody is saying that political agendas are okay, it is as connected with politics as saying that political agendas are not okay. These are just different points of view on one and the same topic.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Mar 11, 2022)

I'm not saying political agendas are ok one way or another. I'm saying that discussing political agendas are against the forum rules and should not be a part of the discussion in this section or any section of the forum. If that's something you want to discuss it should be via PM with other willing members or somewhere else.


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## Persephone (Mar 31, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> I'm not saying political agendas are ok one way or another. I'm saying that discussing political agendas are against the forum rules and should not be a part of the discussion in this section or any section of the forum. If that's something you want to discuss it should be via PM with other willing members or somewhere else.


I agree with your point of view ... I understand the other side as well. There were many old members here who were "PURISTS" and disliked the original Peter Jackson trilogy because he changed so many things like instead of Glorfindel we get Arwen. However, like what EA stated, it's a work of fiction and doesn't have to be that deep. Tolkien wasn't inculcating any sort of politics in his books. He was just telling a really great story. 

I am optimistic about the series. I really hope they surpass the hype of GOT


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## Aldarion (Apr 1, 2022)

Persephone said:


> I agree with your point of view ... I understand the other side as well. There were many old members here who were "PURISTS" and disliked the original Peter Jackson trilogy because he changed so many things like instead of Glorfindel we get Arwen. However, like what EA stated, it's a work of fiction and doesn't have to be that deep. Tolkien wasn't inculcating any sort of politics in his books. He was just telling a really great story.


Tolkien was however creating a mythology, and his work was based around his own ideas and beliefs - his Catholicism, his love of mythology, of history, his experiences in the Great War, and so on. And that is something that has to be respected by any adaptation. His work was highly philosophical, and very, very deep. If you remove that depth, how can you expect adaptation to be good?

I dislike many things PJ did in Lord of the Rings trilogy, but after seeing what happened with the Hobbit - and how it got ruined between Guillermo del Torro, the studio's interference, changing requirements and PJ having to pick up the pieces - I do appreciate how bad movies could have been ruined. And they almost did do it, but Christopher Lee held them back a lot, by insisting on as much book purism as possible. And Jackson was smart enough to respect his input.

The series however doesn't even have proper material to be based on. Modern TV studios nearly ruined (and in the case of the Hobbit, did ruin) stories that were written in their entirety. What can we, realistically, expect from them making their own stuff?


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## Lithóniel (Apr 1, 2022)

HALETH✒🗡 said:


> Pessimistic but trying not to lose hope.


Same for me. The trailer doesn’t look that good 😕


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## Persephone (Apr 1, 2022)

Aldarion said:


> Tolkien was however creating a mythology, and his work was based around his own ideas and beliefs - his Catholicism, his love of mythology, of history, his experiences in the Great War, and so on. And that is something that has to be respected by any adaptation. His work was highly philosophical, and very, very deep. If you remove that depth, how can you expect adaptation to be good?
> 
> I dislike many things PJ did in Lord of the Rings trilogy, but after seeing what happened with the Hobbit - and how it got ruined between Guillermo del Torro, the studio's interference, changing requirements and PJ having to pick up the pieces - I do appreciate how bad movies could have been ruined. And they almost did do it, but Christopher Lee held them back a lot, by insisting on as much book purism as possible. And Jackson was smart enough to respect his input.
> 
> The series however doesn't even have proper material to be based on. Modern TV studios nearly ruined (and in the case of the Hobbit, did ruin) stories that were written in their entirety. What can we, realistically, expect from them making their own stuff?



I agree with you. Tolkien's beliefs colored most, if not all, his literary works. However, I don't think his intention was to indoctrinate. Another point is that Film adaptation these days have changed. While we - as fans of the books - would love for these filmmakers to stick to the story, I don't think they can do that anymore. 

There's just too much politics. So, instead of joining the fray, I am staying out of it and just enjoying the series for what it is: Entertainment.


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## Halasían (Apr 1, 2022)

Persephone said:


> I agree with you. Tolkien's beliefs colored most, if not all, his literary works. However, I don't think his intention was to indoctrinate. Another point is that Film adaptation these days have changed. While we - as fans of the books - would love for these filmmakers to stick to the story, I don't think they can do that anymore.
> 
> There's just too much politics. So, instead of joining the fray, I am staying out of it and just enjoying the series for what it is: Entertainment.


Well said! I agree that it isn't going to be something ”perfect”, and the whole ‘political’ angle just can’t be let go by a certain mindset. Unfortunately the usual five things that are used to stifle any discussion of the new series gets repeatedly thrown up in front of those who do actually wish to discuss the series.


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## Persephone (Apr 2, 2022)

Halasían said:


> .... Unfortunately the usual five things that are used to stifle any discussion of the new series gets repeatedly thrown up in front of those who do actually wish to discuss the series.


😂 😂 😂


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## Aldarion (Apr 2, 2022)

Halasían said:


> Well said! I agree that it isn't going to be something ”perfect”, and the whole ‘political’ angle just can’t be let go by a certain mindset. Unfortunately the usual five things that are used to stifle any discussion of the new series gets repeatedly thrown up in front of those who do actually wish to discuss the series.


You mean, those who want to ignore all the warning signs and pretend everything will be fine? Because I don't see how pointing out that released information indicates the series will be garbage counts as "stifling discussion".


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## Goldilocks Gamgee (Apr 2, 2022)

LOTR4liiife said:


> Same for me. The trailer doesn’t look that good 😕


It looks very visually attractive, though... I have to say that people thought Peter Jackson's trilogy was awful, but look at it now: people think of it as basically what Tolkien had wanted!


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## Lithóniel (Apr 2, 2022)

Goldilocks Gamgee said:


> It looks very visually attractive, though... I have to say that people thought Peter Jackson's trilogy was awful, but look at it now: people think of it as basically what Tolkien had wanted!


Good point! They also did spend a lot of money on it which is good, maybe I’m just overreacting. Can’t judge a book by its cover! (Or a movie/series by its trailer)


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## Persephone (Apr 2, 2022)

Goldilocks Gamgee said:


> It looks very visually attractive, though... I have to say that people thought Peter Jackson's trilogy was awful, but look at it now: people think of it as basically what Tolkien had wanted!


this is 100% true. Again, the original trilogy (I think as well as the Hobbit trilogy) were met with endless criticism for not staying true to the books, but eventually warmed up to them. 

If it's not your cup of tea, it's fine... not bad to stick with what you feel is right. I personally would love to see it first and then determine whether it's for me or not.


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## Halasían (Apr 2, 2022)

Aldarion said:


> You mean, those who want to ignore all the warning signs and pretend everything will be fine? Because I don't see how pointing out that released information indicates the series will be garbage counts as "stifling discussion".


It is ’stifling’ when those who just _have _to _*repeatedly *_post the usual half-dozen disruptive talking points (which are apparently called ”warning signs” among that clique), It makes it difficult for those of us who would actually _want_ to discuss the actual series content. That is all. 

I have found on a couple other sites that some actually _can_ discuss what is ‘wrong’ with scenes and what is released about the series without using those tired talking points in every other sentence. It can be done! 




Persephone said:


> this is 100% true. Again, the original trilogy (I think as well as the Hobbit trilogy) were met with endless criticism for not staying true to the books, but eventually warmed up to them.
> 
> If it's not your cup of tea, it's fine... not bad to stick with what you feel is right. I personally would love to see it first and then determine whether it's for me or not.


I wouldn’t go so far as to say that those who pointed out the wholesale changes Peter Jackson made in his Lord of the Rings and Hobbit adaptations ‘warmed’ to them. I’ve relegated my EE-DVD set of Lord of the Rings to the shelf to gather dust, and haven’t spent a cent on his Hobbit franchise. I _do_ think that what Peter Jackson did with the Lord of the Rings green-lighted the changes and additions that are and will be made in the Rings of Power series. I agree the end product is worth a watch just as Peter Jackson’s Lord of the Rings was worth a watch.


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## Persephone (Apr 3, 2022)

Halasían said:


> I wouldn’t go so far as to say that those who pointed out the wholesale changes Peter Jackson made in his Lord of the Rings and Hobbit adaptations ‘warmed’ to them. I’ve relegated my EE-DVD set of Lord of the Rings to the shelf to gather dust, and haven’t spent a cent on his Hobbit franchise. I _do_ think that what Peter Jackson did with the Lord of the Rings green-lighted the changes and additions that are and will be made in the Rings of Power series. I agree the end product is worth a watch just as Peter Jackson’s Lord of the Rings was worth a watch.



Agree on several points. Some of the critics did warm up, eventually, like, they did watch the film and enjoyed it to a level. Maybe not entirely happy, but were no longer violently disappointed. 

TBH, I was just excited that Tolkien was finally getting the much deserved attention when I heard they were making a movie of the books. I wasn't expecting a true-to-the-book adaptation at all, I mean, it was a very ambitious endeavor. So ambitious that none of the BIG names in Hollywood at the time dared touch. Made me wonder if things would've been different had Lucas, Cameron, or Spielberg were at the helm? We will never know. Would they have been more true to the books? Again, who knows. 

My idea of Middle Earth and its characters were also not the same as Peter's - like I would've made the Hobbits rounder. And yes, the changes that Peter made did create a precedence that other directors now follow and it's not just for LOTR. Sadly, they butchered my favourite Sci-Fi novel, Ender's Game, by casting older kids. Yes, the acting was good, but the age difference made all the difference. Adding a stupid love angle as well instead of casting the right people made me not want to watch it a second time. I only even saw it on video. Didn't go to the cinema for it.


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## Culaeron (Apr 28, 2022)

I’ll give the first episode a watch. And if it’s enjoyable, I’ll watch the second. If that satisfies, a third will follow. I don’t watch much television, and what I do watch is from streaming services. I can’t count the number of historical series or those based on books or game franchises that I’ve started and never finished. But I know of a few that I did. Those that were either true (ish) to the source material, or that were enjoyable for other reasons. Perhaps providing a new perspective or viewpoint from another character. 

I had friends who were major fans of a one season series called Firefly. I mean fans nearly on the level of all the fine folk here in this forum. Or as close as one can be with a one season show. When the show ended, they were upset to a degree I’d never encountered up to that time. I had never seen the show, knew none of the actors. I’d seen a snippet or two. A few seconds here and there while changing channels. Then I saw a trailer for a new movie called Serenity. I had no idea what it was about, I knew these same fans were up in arms over it. So I looked it up, and found an advertisement from the studio saying it was about a war criminal and a prostitute, set in outer space. (I don’t remember the exact wording, but you get the idea). When the movie released, I watched it. By the end I had no idea who the prostitute was, but it was obvious who the war criminal was supposed to be. But it was enjoyable to watch. So I watched the series…and became one of those fans. I started attending conventions, obtained autographs of cast and crew, I even wear Jayne Cobb tees when doing yard work. I became a fan of the series BECAUSE I watched the follow up that the original fans were boycotting. 

Our humble website will benefit from this new Amazon series, and new fans will come. Fresh minds for the discovery of the ORIGINAL books, and new viewpoints for us to discuss. they will, in turn, learn the lore from canon sources. 

As for introducing new ideas, ideologies, politics…that’s always been the case. I’m sure there were some who read the Silmarillion, who knew it was a “mythology” for the English, and were appalled at the idea of an incestuous relationship between one of the main protagonists and his (albeit unknown) sister!! Yes, I’m aware there are historical precedents, but…gasp…to put this in WRITING! Imagine Tolkien’s peers in his place of worship. Imagine, if you will, the conversations. How dare he propose an incestuous villain as a supposed Hero of the Golden Age!! 

My last point, and I’ll end my (maybe) overlong post:

Let us suppose for a moment that you have obtained information that you feel is vital. It needs to be shared. So you saddle your horse and dash off toward your recipient. Spurs rake and crop lashes. The horse doesn’t seem fast enough, so you spur and lash again. Eventually the poor beast collapses from being beaten and ridden to death. The information still hasn’t made it to the audience you know would make the best of it, so you have a choice: Do you sit in the saddle of the poor dead animal and continue beating a dead horse…or do you accept that maybe the first spur and lashing perhaps should have sufficed?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 28, 2022)

Culaeron said:


> When the show ended, they were upset to a degree I’d never encountered up to that time.


They weren't the only ones.





BTW, Turin's story owes much to Kullervo, as you may be aware. I'm sure his academic friends were as well, so I doubt they'd be shocked.


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## Culaeron (Apr 28, 2022)

You’re right. But just like here, not everyone would have been as accepting of the concept. I know many parents would have not been happy if their teen was reading it. That’s the great thing about books, media, and freedom of choice. A book can be closed, a show turned off if it’s not enjoyable to a particular person, but still be read or watched by others. And it takes two viewpoints for a healthy discussion. I’m looking forward to seeing how the show is presented. Then I’ll more than likely rip it apart….lol


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## Persephone (Apr 28, 2022)

Culaeron said:


> I’ll give the first episode a watch. And if it’s enjoyable, I’ll watch the second. If that satisfies, a third will follow. I don’t watch much television, and what I do watch is from streaming services. I can’t count the number of historical series or those based on books or game franchises that I’ve started and never finished. But I know of a few that I did. Those that were either true (ish) to the source material, or that were enjoyable for other reasons. Perhaps providing a new perspective or viewpoint from another character.



My thoughts exactly! Give it a chance... it may grow on you  you never know.



Culaeron said:


> Our humble website will benefit from this new Amazon series, and new fans will come. Fresh minds for the discovery of the ORIGINAL books, and new viewpoints for us to discuss. they will, in turn, learn the lore from canon sources.


TRUE! I think TTF grew because of the films, and the film fans became book fans. 



Culaeron said:


> As for introducing new ideas, ideologies, politics…that’s always been the case. I’m sure there were some who read the Silmarillion, who knew it was a “mythology” for the English, and were appalled at the idea of an incestuous relationship between one of the main protagonists and his (albeit unknown) sister!! Yes, I’m aware there are historical precedents, but…gasp…to put this in WRITING! Imagine Tolkien’s peers in his place of worship. Imagine, if you will, the conversations. How dare he propose an incestuous villain as a supposed Hero of the Golden Age!!


Agree again! 


Culaeron said:


> Let us suppose for a moment that you have obtained information that you feel is vital. It needs to be shared. So you saddle your horse and dash off toward your recipient. Spurs rake and crop lashes. The horse doesn’t seem fast enough, so you spur and lash again. Eventually the poor beast collapses from being beaten and ridden to death. The information still hasn’t made it to the audience you know would make the best of it, so you have a choice: Do you sit in the saddle of the poor dead animal and continue beating a dead horse…or do you accept that maybe the first spur and lashing perhaps should have sufficed?



LOL!!!


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## Starbrow (Apr 28, 2022)

I'm glad there are other Firefly/Serenity fans on this site, too.


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## HobbitGirl (May 16, 2022)

My thoughts on the Rings of Power:

1.) I'm already an Amazon Prime subscriber (more like _abuser; _can you say _free shipping on absolutely everything_) so I don't feel as if the content is being gate-kept or kept behind a paywall.
2.) I will watch it. All of it. Back to front. Intro and outro. Multiple times. By myself and with others.
3.) I will withhold all judgements until I've watched it at LEAST once. On a second watch, THEN I will start my scholarly dissecting of it, for good or ill.

Basically: _you can't have an informed opinion on a piece of media unless you first consume that media. _Are you gonna say "I don't like Mexican food" when you've never had anything resembling Mexican food in your life?? You CAN'T, can you; not with any sort of accuracy. I'm a student of rhetorical criticism and English analysis; everyone's entitled to their opinion, but if we go beyond "I liked it" or "I didn't like it" and cross into the dangerous territory of "it's good" or "it's bad," then one had better have _data_ in order to be credible.



Persephone said:


> TRUE! I think TTF grew because of the films, and the film fans became book fans.


It ABSOLUTELY GREW because of the films. I was one of the members who joined because of the films. I was 14 years old when I first joined this site--and the reason why I eventually stopped posting saddens me to this day. It was because many of the "original" fans, the "old guard" who had read the books long before the movies came out, looked down upon those of us who came into the fandom because of the Peter Jackson trilogy. We felt othered and discouraged. Granted, several of the "old guard" came out in defense of us, stating (correctly) that many of us were literally just _kids, _but that didn't deter some people. Back then, the term "gatekeeping" was not yet in vogue, but that's exactly what it was. And it was disheartening enough that I found myself leaving a fandom I loved.

Fast forward to my college years when I re-read the Silmarillion for the first time in a decade and got back into fanfiction, and found Tolkien spaces on the blogsphere. Suddenly _I'm_ the "old guard," with new fans coming in thanks to the Hobbit trilogy. Did I turn around and gatekeep on them? HELL no. Again, most of them were KIDS. Instead, I engaged them in friendly discussion and invited them to share their opinions and the reasoning behind them. I ended up making friends!

So when the new fans of the Prime show come in, I'm going to welcome them with open arms, give them advice on how to most efficiently read LOTR and the Sil if they're struggling with it, and give them recommendations on how to navigate the wonderful body of work that Christopher Tolkien gave us access to. I WANT to hear what they have to offer. I WANT my stodgy old opinions to be challenged. I WANT new scholarly, friendly, intellectual arguments and debates! Come the frick at me, kids, I'm ready.


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## Aldarion (May 16, 2022)

HobbitGirl said:


> Basically: _you can't have an informed opinion on a piece of media unless you first consume that media. _Are you gonna say "I don't like Mexican food" when you've never had anything resembling Mexican food in your life?? You CAN'T, can you; not with any sort of accuracy. I'm a student of rhetorical criticism and English analysis; everyone's entitled to their opinion, but if we go beyond "I liked it" or "I didn't like it" and cross into the dangerous territory of "it's good" or "it's bad," then one had better have _data_ in order to be credible.


I always know whether I will like the food before I try it simply from the smell. And from the everything they have released this far, show smells bad.

But yeah, it is impossible to say that "it will be garbage" right now. Saying that it _appears likely_ that it will be garbage, however, is perfectly fine. While there is a _possibility_ that it will be good (hence, _certainty _in the opposite direction is impossible), the series checks out literally all the warning boxes about a disaster-in-making:

Adaptation with next to no source material? Check. (Example: later seasons of _Game of Thrones_ when the show had outrun the books.)
Created by a studio with a history of unsuccessful adaptations? Check. (Example: _Wheel of Time_)
Outright disrespect towards the original material that created the universe their work is set in? Check. (Example: new _Star Wars _movies)


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## HobbitGirl (May 16, 2022)

Aldarion said:


> I always know whether I will like the food before I try it simply from the smell. And from the everything they have released this far, show smells bad.
> 
> But yeah, it is impossible to say that "it will be garbage" right now. Saying that it _appears likely_ that it will be garbage, however, is perfectly fine. While there is a _possibility_ that it will be good (hence, _certainty _in the opposite direction is impossible), the series checks out literally all the warning boxes about a disaster-in-making:
> 
> ...


Ah, but to continue the metaphor, have you ever had any exposure to unpasteurized French cheeses? :3 They smell like _death, _and yet they are _delicious._ Same with most alcoholic drinks; honestly I would NOT have ever tried soju if going by smell alone. You never REALLY know how something tastes until you put it on your tongue.

And I won't deny the red flags, but I also felt my hope swelling when I read this article on theonering.net: https://www.theonering.net/torwp/20...age-snags-high-praise-from-tolkien-community/ Especially since I actually was lucky enough to meet one or two of the quoted bloggers in person, and know how exacting and precise their criticisms are.

Essentially, something is rarely as bad as its worst traits. As much as there's reason for scorn, there's also reason for hope.


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## Aldarion (May 16, 2022)

HobbitGirl said:


> And I won't deny the red flags, but I also felt my hope swelling when I read this article on theonering.net: https://www.theonering.net/torwp/20...age-snags-high-praise-from-tolkien-community/ Especially since I actually was lucky enough to meet one or two of the quoted bloggers in person, and know how exacting and precise their criticisms are.
> 
> Essentially, something is rarely as bad as its worst traits. As much as there's reason for scorn, there's also reason for hope.


I had to go to Wayback Machine to actually open the article, for some reason it doesn't want to open the original link. Not much to make me optimistic, to be honest: a couple of generalist statements that do not provide examples for support, some praise for writers of the show which - well, they worked on New Star Trek, so not a good sign... mention that they will have experts involved - the only one I was able to confirm was Tom Shippey, except he apparently isn't working on the show any more. So they are making a Tolkien show, set in a time where there is limited lore available, and they apparently don't even have a Tolkien expert. Yikes.

Well, at least I went from _almost certainly hopeless_ to _probably hopeless_, so still, thanks.


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## Olorgando (May 16, 2022)

HobbitGirl said:


> ... I would NOT have ever tried soju if going by smell alone. ...


I have. Not on my list of favorite drinks - but then there is less than a handful of the high-percentage stuff that I'll even nip at with anything remotely like pleasure. So if TRoP ends up in soju territory - ew!


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## HobbitGirl (May 16, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> I have. Not on my list of favorite drinks - but then there is less than a handful of the high-percentage stuff that I'll even nip at with anything remotely like pleasure. So if TRoP ends up in soju territory - ew!


High percentage?? Fam, soju is only 20% at worst. XD Also you clearly have not tried blueberry soju. :3 (Am I a hypocrite for loving flavored soju and hating flavored vodka? No, because vodka is 40% and made of potatoes and sadness and soju is made of sweet potatoes and sweet sweet memories.)

Anyway, even if TRoP ends up in (my opinion of) vodka territory, I'll just dump orange juice into it and guzzle it down so I have the informed ability to talk smack later. :3


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## Halasían (May 16, 2022)

Since a new option was added, I picked that. I will say I'm still cautiously optimistic, but any true opinion will wait until I see it.



HobbitGirl said:


> My thoughts on the Rings of Power:
> 
> 1.) I'm already an Amazon Prime subscriber (more like _abuser; _can you say _free shipping on absolutely everything_) so I don't feel as if the content is being gate-kept or kept behind a paywall.
> 2.) I will watch it. All of it. Back to front. Intro and outro. Multiple times. By myself and with others.
> 3.) I will withhold all judgements until I've watched it at LEAST once. On a second watch, THEN I will start my scholarly dissecting of it, for good or ill.


*↑* This ↑
Won't cost me a ¢ more to watch as I already enjoy content with Prime anyway. Chances are I'll watch the 1st season per episode, then watch it through again once all the episodes are out. I'll likely shed some judgement along the way.

Good point on 'gatekeeping'. It was like that, and some of us old farts took a bit to accept that the PJ fanfics brought in a whole lot of new fans of Tolkien's work. I believe the same will happen with Rings of Power. I noted the publishers are already selling books with Rings of Power artwork on the covers.



Aldarion said:


> I had to go to Wayback Machine to actually open the article, for some reason it doesn't want to open the original link. Not much to make me optimistic, to be honest: a couple of generalist statements that do not provide examples for support, some praise for writers of the show which - well, they worked on New Star Trek, so not a good sign... mention that they will have experts involved - the only one I was able to confirm was Tom Shippey, except he apparently isn't working on the show any more. So they are making a Tolkien show, set in a time where there is limited lore available, and they apparently don't even have a Tolkien expert. Yikes.


No Tolkien experts working on Rings of Power because Shippey isn't involved? That is funny. The fact that the Tolkien Estate _is_ actually involved in this project says a lot. But the Tolkien Estate obviously aren't Tolkien experts like all the negative youtoober critics. 🤣 

↓ It's always fun to get the whole 'spirit of Tolkien' commentary. Opinions is all that is. They are like holes that point bachward, everyone has them, and some think theirs are golden. 🤣 ↓


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## Aldarion (May 17, 2022)

Halasían said:


> No Tolkien experts working on Rings of Power because Shippey isn't involved? That is funny. The fact that the Tolkien Estate _is_ actually involved in this project says a lot. But the Tolkien Estate obviously aren't Tolkien experts like all the negative youtoober critics. 🤣


Because they sacked Shippey (or else he left) and there was no word about any other Tolkien expert being involved in the first place or else brought in to replace him. And since Shippey left due to "creative differences", it is pretty clear that they simply wanted to do whatever they liked without being restrained by the need to respect either the spirit or the letter of Tolkien's work.

Tolkien Estate is there to manage Tolkien IP/copyright. Their involvement doesn't mean that there will be any Tolkien experts involved. Look at what happened to new Star Trek and new Star Wars: both were made with involvement of Paramount / Lucasfilm, respectively, yet both are garbage that contradicts both the letter and the spirit of the originals. Especially new Star Wars is bad about it

So no, involvement of the Tolkien Estate does not mean that they will actually ensure the high quality of the product, or that the finished product will respect either the letter or the spirit of Tolkien's work. But if the approach is easier for you...


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (May 17, 2022)

Some of the posts here seem to indicate a further choice is needed, so I added one. 😀


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## Olorgando (May 17, 2022)

Halasían said:


> No Tolkien experts working on Rings of Power because Shippey isn't involved? That is funny. The fact that the Tolkien Estate _is_ actually involved in this project says a lot. But the Tolkien Estate obviously aren't Tolkien experts like all the negative youtoober critics. 🤣


We don't know (at least I don't) how much any members of the current Tolkien Estate, (extended) family members or otherwise, assisted Christopher in his writings of HoMe etc. I'm fairly confident that all of them put together would pale against Christopher's status as Tolkien expert - as would Shippey, Flieger, Rateliff, Hostetter, Garth, Carpenter et. al. combined, for that matter. As to the YT "experts" - well, maybe *some* have JRRT "libraries" to rival mine, or even those of other members of TTF, so ... well, I guess it depends on the contents of their posts. My extremely limited experience of YT is of a haystack with some needles ...


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## Annatar (May 17, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> As to the YT "experts"



To put it briefly: There seem to be many among the more well-known Tolkien YouTubers who appear to be well-read but ultimately don't get it. As of course here in the forum, too. 😸


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## Halasían (May 18, 2022)

Annatar said:


> To put it briefly: There seem to be many among the more well-known Tolkien YouTubers who appear to be well-read but ultimately don't get it. As of course here in the forum, too. 😸


 "Don't Get It" as in 'Don't have the exact same opinion as self-proclaimed 'Tolkien Experts'. 😅


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## cart (May 23, 2022)

i can't imagine anyone in this forum being able to enjoy this series knowing what you know.. especially those that know the spirit of the literature itself of which i can only glimpse.. i'm sure anyone who has read his letters will watch 1 episode and react to it like i did to netflix's adaptation of Cowboy Bebop.. with disdain and disgust and tap out 1 episode in..

now for the non-reader.. fans of the hobbit movies (nothing wrong in that, as even i watch them here and there.. and i ask myself why every time) in particular who also don't read the books.. and then those who weren't even alive when the movies came out and only know the movies were a big deal when my dad was in college or whatever.. may enjoy it. but adaptations these days seem to miss the mark so bad these days and attempt to teach us morality moreso than focus on the legendary material they were allowed to work with and further build upon and respect the vision of the original creator. it would not shock me to see an interview where the director says something like "i didn't read the books" or something... as this happened recently with some other adaptation that had garnered something beyond just respect but praise and admiration (though i forget which)

*i would also add that nearly all these projects fail as well.. not just with the original fandom, but in those outside of it.. as the people given the reigns only need to guide the horse... but they seem intent on putting the reigns on another horse altogether.. as their horse is somehow better.*


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## Annatar (May 24, 2022)

cart said:


> i can't imagine anyone in this forum being able to enjoy this series knowing what you know.. especially those that know the spirit of the literature itself of which i can only glimpse.. i'm sure anyone who has read his letters will watch 1 episode and react to it like i did to netflix's adaptation of Cowboy Bebop.. with disdain and disgust and tap out 1 episode in..
> 
> now for the non-reader.. fans of the hobbit movies (nothing wrong in that, as even i watch them here and there.. and i ask myself why every time) in particular who also don't read the books.. and then those who weren't even alive when the movies came out and only know the movies were a big deal when my dad was in college or whatever.. may enjoy it. but adaptations these days seem to miss the mark so bad these days and attempt to teach us morality moreso than focus on the legendary material they were allowed to work with and further build upon and respect the vision of the original creator.


Absolutely correct.



cart said:


> it would not shock me to see an interview where the director says something like "i didn't read the books" or something...


Of course, that's not going to happen. Even if one or the other showrunner or author might not have read any books, or only a few, they wouldn't admit it. It would also be a disaster in terms of marketing. 

Matthew 7:
"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits."



cart said:


> it would not shock me to see an interview where the director says something like "i didn't read the books" or something...


Oh, I forgot about that:
The showrunners have said much worse:



> The driving question behind the production, he adds, was this: "*Can we come up with the novel Tolkien never wrote and do it as the mega-event series that could only happen now?*











Amazon’s ‘Lord of the Rings’ Series Rises: Inside ‘The Rings of Power’


One show to rule them all—the first look at a billion-dollar saga set thousands of years before J.R.R. Tolkien’s legendary trilogy.




www.vanityfair.com





That alone is blasphemous enough, but add to that the fact that *they don't have the rights to the Silmarillion or the Unfinished Tales, where the Second Age is told* in the most detail.
They only have the rights to The Lord of the Rings, including the Appendices, where there are only a few condensed pages about the Second Age.

So they deliberately designed to be able to use Tolkien (who hated allegory) and the "Lord of the Rings" as well-known names to ultimately tell a modern, extremely political fanfiction story that - despite the Tolkien Estate involvement - already contradicts the canon. No wonder things really took off after Christopher Tolkien's death. It's pathetic what Amazon is doing.


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## Beytran70 (May 26, 2022)

I consider myself something of an outlier when it comes to enjoying media of various types. I famously (or infamously) among my friends will defend even the Hobbit movies because I at least find them incredibly fun and enjoyable to watch, and there is at least enough familiarity there to be vaguely close to the books.

At first glance, however, this looks like it could very well be any other fantasy series or just one that is made up altogether, and I likely won't like it for the same reasons I didn't much like Wheel of Time or the dozens of other similar shows coming out these days: it'll be bland. Even the Witcher is a little bland at times, but I think it still sits inside the lines enough that my brain doesn't reject it the way I reject name-brand cereals at the supermarket. 

So I am pessimistic. That's not to say I won't be open-minded, of course, and I likely will check it out, but not only do I doubt it will be good, I doubt it will have quite the reaction Amazon is likely hoping it will, because frankly the market is too saturated and it isn't "Lord of the Rings" enough to draw upon the pop cultural awareness of the masses imo, so it'll just blend into the background with the other shows.


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## Radaghast (May 28, 2022)

Hm. No option for "I won't be watching"?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jun 2, 2022)

I think either "pessimistic" or "outrageous" would cover that. 😁


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## Goldilocks Gamgee (Jun 2, 2022)

Maybe "I will form an opinion after I watch it" would cover it better though. If you're not watching it, then you won't have an opinion on it, which is - I think - a great place to be.


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## Bahnz (Jun 15, 2022)

Very interested to see what they do with it. No clue yet whether it will be good or bad though, given how little we know.


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## Elassar (Jun 16, 2022)

I am hopeful it will be good. Catiously optimistic but not expecting perfect Tolkien truths


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## Copia (Aug 2, 2022)

Excited and a nervouse :’)
Will form an opinion after Ive seen it.


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## Barliman (Aug 2, 2022)

I had great hopes and excitement for the LoTR movies.
I've learned my lesson  
Fool me once......blah blah.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 2, 2022)

You can always wait until it appears, and then judge. 😉


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## Baron (Aug 2, 2022)

I am really looking forward to it, I think it is looking promising. It is inevitable we are going to pick fault with it here and there but for me more Tolkien is a good thing 😊


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 2, 2022)

Baron said:


> I am really looking forward to it, I think it is looking promising. It is inevitable we are going to pick fault with it here and there but for me more Tolkien is a good thing 😊


This is true. You can never go wrong with more Tolkien in this world!


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 2, 2022)

And it's no doubt bringing people here, which is also a good thing. 😃


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 2, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> And it's no doubt bringing people here, which is also a good thing. 😃


Indeed! More TTF-Members is always good! I don't know if this is encouraged-- but every time I see someone wearing a LOTR T-shirt, or I talk with someone who loves Tolkien, I refer them to this Forum! It is awesome!


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 2, 2022)

Of course it is! 😊


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 2, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Of course it is! 😊


Good! I always want more TTF friends.


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## Annatar (Aug 2, 2022)

Baron said:


> for me more Tolkien is a good thing 😊


Unfortunately, it will be less Tolkien than you hope for. Much less. In fact, no Tolkien at all. But you will see. 😂


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 2, 2022)

Annatar said:


> Unfortunately, it will be less Tolkien than you hope for. Much less. In fact, no Tolkien at all. But you will see. 😂


I shall wait to see... Nauva i nauva.


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## Baron (Aug 2, 2022)

We live in hope 😅 let's think of it as Tolkien based artistic expression. I'm quite excited to see something new! I must admit I am even more excited for the upcoming Sibley book!


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## Annatar (Aug 2, 2022)

Baron said:


> let's think of it as Tolkien based artistic expression.


Let me correct that for you:

"let's think of it as Amazon based blasphemic expression."



Baron said:


> I must admit I am even more excited for the upcoming Sibley book!


I'm curious about that, too. Especially whether there will be more in it than what I have listed here:









Your ultimate guide to the 2nd Age (show?)


Probably the best way to hate the Amazon show is to revisit Tolkien's Second Age texts intensively just before the series starts (which I have already done within the last year). I'd therefore recommend the following reading: 0. Optional: General, helpful and overarching reading Lord of...




www.thetolkienforum.com





(My addition "show?" in the title can now be deleted, because this "show" has nothing to do with the source material...
Likewise, the thread can be moved to another sub-forum where it fits in better; as this will otherwise only confuse future forum users who want to get involved with the series.)


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## Ealdwyn (Aug 2, 2022)

Annatar said:


> Let me correct that for you:
> 
> "let's think of it as Amazon based blasphemic expression."


There's a lot I could say about Amazon and their "expressions", but I'd probably get banned from the forum.


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## Aldarion (Aug 2, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> You can always wait until it appears, and then judge. 😉


Why? This way we get to judge it _twice_! Double the fun!


Baron said:


> I am really looking forward to it, I think it is looking promising. It is inevitable we are going to pick fault with it here and there but for me more Tolkien is a good thing 😊


That assumes there will be _any _Tolkien in the show to begin with. Personally, I think it will end up as all new iterations of old franchises had ended up as: no-talent filmmakers using legacy of the greats to prop themselves up, but ending up with a product that has no resemblance to the original art except the title.

Kinda like telling Picasso to paint Mona Lisa. Except Picasso actually had some talent, at least.


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## Baron (Aug 2, 2022)

Exactly like telling Picasso to paint Mona Lisa! 
I am easy to please do I am sure I will enjoy it even if Leonardo didn't paint it!

I don't think any director/screen writer could ever do Tolkien's work justice, that is never going to happen!
I am though happy that something new and fresh will give us all something to digest and talk about, draw a new generation into Tolkien's works.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 3, 2022)

Baron said:


> I don't think any director/screen writer could ever do Tolkien's work justice, that is never going to happen!
> I am though happy that something new and fresh will give us all something to digest and talk about, draw a new generation into Tolkien's works.


This is precisely my own position. Tolkien's great literature and works shall never be justified by the representation of a mere film or show. Nothing could compare. However my openness and hopefulness expands beyond just reading it in books-- and I think there is much promise for good and enjoyable film quality, even if accuracy has become a rather distant thought.


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## Ealdwyn (Aug 3, 2022)

To quote Christopher Tolkien (my emphasis):
"Tolkien has become a monster, devoured by his own popularity and absorbed into the absurdity of our time. The chasm between the beauty and seriousness of the work, and what it has become, has overwhelmed me. *The commercialisation has reduced the aesthetic and philosophical impact of the creation to nothing. *There is only one solution for me: to turn my head away."


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## Barliman (Aug 3, 2022)

Aldarion said:


> Peter Jackson was actually not _that _bad, considering how bad it could have been.


Yeah, it was "that bad."
But I guess you can say a 25 car train wreck (LoTR movies) isn't that bad, when compared to a 50 car train wreck (The Hobbit movies) that followed.


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## Barliman (Aug 3, 2022)

Aldarion said:


> Chris Gore discusses why new Amazon series is basically alienating the audience.


Wait, what?
"Jackson remained true to the stories, but I've never read the books."


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## HALETH✒🗡 (Aug 3, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> You can always wait until it appears, and then judge. 😉


Amazon has already shown us something for advertising purposes.


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## Barliman (Aug 3, 2022)

LadyGaladriel1980 said:


> A serie about diversity and warrior woman has nothing to do with Tolkiens middle earth.


Let me introduce you to, "Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!"


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## Barliman (Aug 3, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> You can always wait until it appears, and then judge. 😉


I am, I just mean I don't have "great hopes and excitement".
I was responding to the thread title. Yeah, I know, pretty unheard of in online forums. 😆


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## Aldarion (Aug 3, 2022)

Barliman said:


> Yeah, it was "that bad."
> But I guess you can say a 25 car train wreck (LoTR movies) isn't that bad, when compared to a 50 car train wreck (The Hobbit movies) that followed.


That is my point.

And now we have a 200 car train wreck incoming.


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## Radaghast (Aug 3, 2022)




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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 3, 2022)

Aldarion said:


> That is my point.
> 
> And now we have a 200 car train wreck incoming.


Why don't we wait before coming to conclusions about it? All we have seen is the trailers. That really isn't enough to fully judge by-- and the cinematics are well-done.


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## Aldarion (Aug 3, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Why don't we wait before coming to conclusions about it? All we have seen is the trailers. That really isn't enough to fully judge by-- and the cinematics are well-done.


We also have showrunners' statements, fact that they will be compressing the timeline, fact that they don't have the rights to basically anything Tolkien wrote except LotR appendices...


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 3, 2022)

Aldarion said:


> We also have showrunners' statements, fact that they will be compressing the timeline, fact that they don't have the rights to basically anything Tolkien wrote except LotR appendices...


I know... I never said, nor thought, that this show would be great in story accuracy. That seems only a mere shadow of hope for me, and not a hopeful one at that.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 3, 2022)

Aldarion said:


> fact that they don't have the rights to basically anything Tolkien wrote except LotR appendices...


Apparently, they can use some elements from other works, such as the Silmarillion, _if _they clear it with the estate.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 3, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Apparently, they can use some elements from other works, such as the Silmarillion, _if _they clear it with the estate.


Interesting...


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## Ealdwyn (Aug 3, 2022)

I just can't engage with RoP. I can't watch these trailers that they keep churning out.

At least we had hope when we were awaiting the LotR movies.... even if we were disappointed in the end. But the more I see/hear about RoP the more I feel that it's going to completely destroy something that is so dearly loved by so many people.

We already have the legacy of PJ's movies: a large part of the fandom can't conceive of a M-E that is any different to PJ's vision. And that's fine - I mean, I'm not gatekeeping here - it's possible to be a fan of the films OR a fan of the books OR a fan of both. But I hate that PJ's vision is so ubiquitous. I hate the way so many fans see his version as _definitive. _I hate that they only see the characters and events through PJ's eyes. It breaks my heart that the cultural legacy of LotR will only ever be a shadow of what Tolkien intended.

And that is why I am dreading RoP. For years I have imagined the places and events and principal characters of the S.A, and I love to see the interpretations of other fans through their artwork. I hate that our collective imagination will be superceded by a corporate monster that doesn't care about M-E. I hate that in a short time it will be Amaz*n's twisted vision that will become the definitive version of the Second Age. I hate that future generations of fans will have RoP as their first and possibly only reference to the earlier ages of M-E.

I'm not allowed to go into detail here about why I think Amaz*n are so evil and hypocritical as a company - people can google that for themselves.
But I can try and express about how heartbroken I am - truly heartbroken - about what is happening to Tolkien's legacy. 

I have only one request: please mods, can you make it easy for those of us who don't watch RoP to avoid being contaminated by RoP content once the series is aired.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 3, 2022)

It's already easy: just don't look at any RoP threads. 😅


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 3, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> It's already easy: just don't look at any RoP threads. 😅


'Tis true.


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## Olorgando (Aug 3, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> It's already easy: just don't look at any RoP threads. 😅


The first TV that my wife and I had which had a remote control, perhaps since the mid-1990's, was a set that my paternal grandmother (who passed away in mid-1990) had bought in the early 1980's. Being able to change channels, and shut the TV set off, without getting up off the couch - wow! 
All electronic gadgets that I've come across since then, with buttons attached to the gadget itself (like a car radio) or came equipped with a remote control have always had these two very vital functions, almost always in a prominent place of the key- (respectively button-) board. Now I'm not familiar with the "touch-screen" generation of gadgets that started (?) with Apple's iPhone. Do they still have a function or two that is not on the screen? Have they hidden the "off-button" deep in some obscure sub-sub-sub-sub-sub-function? Have they eliminated it *completely???*
I ask because by now for decades, some of the most pathetically inane blather that I've ever read about all sorts of subjects seems to come from people who must be ignorant, as far as I can tell, of these two functions - change channel, turn off. Unless of course the newest generation of the totally misnamed "smart" gadgets have actually done away with them - at least the turn off one.


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## Ent (Aug 3, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> To quote Christopher Tolkien (my emphasis):
> "Tolkien has become a monster, devoured by his own popularity and absorbed into the absurdity of our time. The chasm between the beauty and seriousness of the work, and what it has become, has overwhelmed me. *The commercialisation has reduced the aesthetic and philosophical impact of the creation to nothing. *There is only one solution for me: to turn my head away."



Ealdwyn - where can this quote be located please? I'd like to keep it at hand, with source citation.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 3, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> Ealdwyn - where can this quote be located please? I'd like to keep it at hand, with source citation.


I am curious of this too-- I don't think I've ever read it.


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## Ent (Aug 3, 2022)

I was not going to speak on this further, but I find I must.
Regarding the original thread's question:
- "What is my expectation?" It is that it will be a LONG time before people are done talking about it.
- "What is my opinion?" That it "is what it is, and is never going to be anything other than it is." 

We hold our expectations "loosely" and carefully, because every frustration comes from an unfulfilled expectation. 
We hold our HOPES loosely and carefully, because every disappointment comes from an unfulfilled hope.

And we align our opinions, to the extent possible, with that which is, because to hold an opinion contrary to what is presents the 'irresistable force meeting the immovable object' syndrome, which can only stem from expectations and hopes that we did not hold loosely and/or carefully.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 3, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> I was not going to speak on this further, but I find I must.
> Regarding the original thread's question:
> - "What is my expectation?" It is that it will be a LONG time before people are done talking about it.
> - "What is my opinion?" That it "is what it is, and is never going to be anything other than it is."
> ...


Well said. Never be too hasty..


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## Ent (Aug 3, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Well said. Never be too hasty..



Indeed, as one ages, and begins to grasp the sources of frustration and disappointment, and deals with those two sources, then one's opinions quite frankly change altogether. (And dare I say, life becomes much more peaceful when frustrations and disappointments are eliminated.)


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 3, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> Indeed, as one ages, and begins to grasp the sources of frustration and disappointment, and deals with those two sources, then one's opinions quite frankly change altogether. (And dare I say, life becomes much more peaceful when frustrations and disappointments are eliminated.)


Words of true wisdom. Blessed indeed I am to hear them.


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## Ealdwyn (Aug 3, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> Ealdwyn - where can this quote be located please? I'd like to keep it at hand, with source citation.


The original quote is from an interview with Le Monde in 2012 (penultimate paragraph)








Tolkien, l'anneau de la discorde


"Le Seigneur des anneaux", c'est un livre culte qui masque en partie le reste de l'œuvre. Au grand dam du fils de l'écrivain, qui s'exprime pour la première fois.




www.lemonde.fr


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## Ent (Aug 3, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> The original quote is from an interview with Le Monde in 2012 (penultimate paragraph)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hrum Hoom. I'll need to submit it to an interpreter. (Or find it already so.)
Thank you very much.


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## Lithóniel (Aug 3, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> Hrum Hoom


AHH yes! Oh how I love Ents 😂


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## Halasían (Aug 3, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> I just can't engage with RoP. I can't watch these trailers that they keep churning out.
> 
> At least we had hope when we were awaiting the LotR movies.... even if we were disappointed in the end. But the more I see/hear about RoP the more I feel that it's going to completely destroy something that is so dearly loved by so many people.


How does Rings of Power "destroy" 'something' (I assume by 'something' you mean 'J.R.R. Tolkien's works')? The books and the stories and my personal 'head-canon' I envisioned when I read The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings remains true within me. It was not 'destroyed' by Bakshi or PJ or will it be with the Rings of Power. I think what it _does_ destroy is certain people's hopes that others 'see' Middle Earth as they envision it because they think it can't be any other way than what the think it is.

As far as Christopler's 2012 comment... he can blame his father for selling rights to United Artists in 1969, and himself for churning out every post-it note revision his dad wrote into a book for sale. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 3, 2022)

A bit harsh. But 2012 was the year the first Hobbit movie came out, and AFAIK RoP hadn't even been thought of. He wasn't exactly overflowing with praise for the LOTR films either.

And the general feeling is by no means limited to "media" adaptations. Here's critic John Clute, at the end of a long and insightful article on Tolkien in 1997's _Encyclopedia of Fantasy_:


> JRRT's influence on fantasy and SF has been not merely profound but also demeaning. It is his work which has given licence to the fairies, elves, orcs, cuddly dwarves, loquacious plants, singing barmen, etc., who inhabit FANTASYLAND, which itself constitutes a direct thinning of JRRT's constantly evolving secondary world . . .


I've directed arrows at PJ, and will no doubt do so with RoP, just as I have with poor literary imitations. But I wouldn't want to throw out everything that came in Tolkien's wake; if not gold, there are occasionally a few veins of silver in the dross.

And as Clute ends:


> . . .the books remain, untouched by the myriad borrowings.


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## Kolbitar (Aug 3, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> A bit harsh. But 2012 was the year the first Hobbit movie came out, and AFAIK RoP hadn't even been thought of. He wasn't exactly overflowing with praise for the LOTR films either.
> 
> And the general feeling is by no means limited to "media" adaptations. Here's critic John Clute, at the end of a long and insightful article on Tolkien in 1997's _Encyclopedia of Fantasy_:
> 
> ...


In good spirit, your words about gold and silver reminded me of Sam in the tower (making do with inferior armor) with Frodo--just replace "Gorbag's gear" with PJ's work, and "this business here" with, well, Amazon's business as the topic of this thread:

"'The Morgul-stuff, Gorbag's gear, was a better fit and better made,' said Sam; 'but it wouldn't do, I guess, to go carrying his tokens into Mordor, not after this business here. Well, there you are, Mr. Frodo. A perfect little orc, if I may make so bold'...".


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 4, 2022)

Kolbitar said:


> In good spirit, your words about gold and silver reminded me of Sam in the tower (making do with inferior armor) with Frodo--just replace "Gorbag's gear" with PJ's work, and "this business here" with, well, Amazon's business as the topic of this thread:
> 
> "'The Morgul-stuff, Gorbag's gear, was a better fit and better made,' said Sam; 'but it wouldn't do, I guess, to go carrying his tokens into Mordor, not after this business here. Well, there you are, Mr. Frodo. A perfect little orc, if I may make so bold'...".


I thought of this quote reading Squint's post also. Thanks for sharing.


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## Uminya (Aug 4, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> *". . .the books remain, untouched by the myriad borrowings."*



This is a good point for people to remember, I think. Aside from films, there have been plenty of good and downright awful adaptations of Tolkien's work in other media. There are been supplemental books that can be outstanding or terrible, I despise David Day's _The Tolkien Bestiary_ but love Ruth S. Noel's _Languages of Middle Earth_. I actually think that the worst offenders when it comes to Tolkien have been video games, which have overwhelmingly focused on the violence of the stories and made countless fabrications in the setting to an audience of millions.

But in the end, none of that changes what JRR himself wrote down, nor what Christopher put together from his father's extensive drafts and notes. If those are good enough for readers to enjoy, then no derivative media can take that away. Bakshi's film did not dissuade people from reading Tolkien. Rankin and Bass's films did not dissuade people from reading Tolkien. Peter Jackson's films did not dissuade people from reading Tolkien. If anything--and despite all the enormous flaws of those works--even more people read Tolkien's actual work than did before each was released.

There will be people who read Tolkien because of _Rings of Power_. They'll talk about it with their friends and family, and perhaps they'll even come here to ask questions and learn more. So I think that ultimately the vitriol is excessive (and telling). So what if it's lousy? My first exposure to Tolkien were the awful animations from Rankin & Bass, and yet here I am (granted, those songs were as catchy as they were corny, and I still love them). We all have to start someplace, and I think it sets a bad precedent for the future to think that a thing that will _undoubtedly_ get people to read Tolkien is going to somehow "ruin Tolkien". One can dislike a thing without needing to see it as some kind of media crisis.


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## Halasían (Aug 4, 2022)

Uminya said:


> So what if it's lousy? My first exposure to Tolkien were the awful animations from Rankin & Bass, and yet here I am (granted, those songs were as catchy as they were corny, and I still love them).


This reminds me of a night in January 2004 when I was watching Return of the King in a theater for the third time. When it got to Gollum biting off Frodo's finger and the ring, a guy stood up in the back corner of the theater and sang in perfect opretic tone, 'Frodo... of the Nine Fingers...' He was met with both 'applause' and 'shut up'


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 4, 2022)

Halasían said:


> When it got to Gollum biting off Frodo's finger and the ring, a guy stood up in the back corner of the theater and sang in perfect opretic tone, 'Frodo... of the Nine Fingers...' He was met with both 'applause' and 'shut up'


This is funny-- glad to hear I am not the only one who adds my own little comments.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 4, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> This is funny-- glad to hear I am not the only one who adds my own little comments.


Can't help but relate the Nine Fingers to the Nine Ringwraiths...


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 4, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> Can't help but relate the Nine Fingers to the Nine Ringwraiths...


Hmm... I wonder if any significance lay hidden within there. May be worth a look.


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## Annatar Lord Of Gifts (Aug 13, 2022)

The series should never have been done. Should have waited until Tolkien estate sold the rights for the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales because no one can use the material from the lore until they've bought the rights. Amazon can only use content from the appendices, which is very narrow. No dialogues, no mention of Annatar, so they cant use his name in the show, so much they can't use because they don't have the rights. From what I've seen anyway it is horrific. Diversity where there shouldn't be any, warrior galadriel, hobbits that shouldn't even be there, balrogs that shouldn't even be there, terrible costumes, Elves with short hair, compressed timelines, too dominant Tar Miriel (where the hell is Ar-Pharazon?), Halbrand (i assume is Sauron) is all wrong, he's supposed to look fair, beautiful, majestic and ethereal not like some chad man. And on and on and on it goes, there's so much wrong with this series I've completely given up on it. Instead I'll be spending my September rewatching the Lord Of the Rings trilogy, reading The Silmarillion and History Of Middle Earth and trying to find a cinema where I can get a showing of the Lord Of The Rings movies (and yes it's possible, they were showing Fellowship Of The Ring, Return Of The King at some cinemas in UK earlier this month, everyone should try to go and experience it again!).


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## arivista (Aug 16, 2022)

If the show disappoints the fanbase, I think the creators might regret the chosen release date. Since it is also anniversary of Tolkien's death, it will be likely construed as one huge spit on his grave. It may have been meant as a tribute, but it can easily backfire.


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## Annatar Lord Of Gifts (Aug 16, 2022)

arivista said:


> If the show disappoints the fanbase, I think the creators might regret the chosen release date. Since it is also anniversary of Tolkien's death, it will be likely construed as one huge spit on his grave. It may have been meant as a tribute, but it can easily backfire.


No they'll just attack the fans call us racist and sexist and blame it on the fans not liking it. They don't care. These people have no shame.


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## Radaghast (Aug 16, 2022)

Annatar Lord Of Gifts said:


> No they'll just attack the fans call us racist and sexist and blame it on the fans not liking it. They don't care. These people have no shame.


They're already doing that. Morfydd Clark is telling her followers to shut up and using colorful language to do it 😆 

No shame and no class either.


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## Annatar Lord Of Gifts (Aug 16, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> They're already doing that. Morfydd Clark is telling her followers to shut up and using colorful language to do it 😆
> 
> No shame and no class either.


She's just bitter because now she's starting to realise that the show she's starring in is not going to be rated as highly as the Peter Jackson movies, but instead will be seen as the joke of the early 21st century. And it hasn't even started yet. The amount of abuse and ridicule this show and these actors are going to receive over the course of the first season is going to be off the charts. This humiliation and embarrassment will follow them for the rest of their lives and there's nothing they can do now to escape it. This is probably what they're realising right now. Anyway good riddance to them, it's entirely of their own making and they've made their bed. Looking forward to seeing all the mock and ridicule videos that will inevitably follow on youtube. THAT is the real entertainment we should be watching.


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## Olorgando (Aug 16, 2022)

Annatar Lord Of Gifts said:


> She's just bitter because now she's starting to realise that the show she's starring in is not going to be rated as highly as the Peter Jackson movies, but instead will be seen as the joke of the early 21st century. And it hasn't even started yet. The amount of abuse and ridicule this show and these actors are going to receive over the course of the first season is going to be off the charts. This humiliation and embarrassment will follow them for the rest of their lives and there's nothing they can do now to escape it. This is probably what they're realising right now. Anyway good riddance to them, it's entirely of their own making and they've made their bed. Looking forward to seeing all the mock and ridicule videos that will inevitably follow on youtube. THAT is the real entertainment we should be watching.


That would be putting the blame in the wrong place. I don't blame any of the actors / actresses of PJ's LoTR, nor even of his TH, for their performances in these films. It's the screenwriters / directors / producers / studios who are responsible for any such stuff. I sometimes sarcastically envisage some influential, but utterly unimaginative, trolls at the studios lumbering out of their caves with the same cookie-cutter checklist of "gotta-haves" as for the last zillion films (*perhaps* with slight variations for different genres), grunting their wishes in the direction of some fawning underlings, then lumbering back to their caves satisfied that they have once again homogenized, pasteurized and whatever another entertainment media product into that bland, nondescript mass of same ol' same ol' that they are (barely) able to understand. 😈


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 16, 2022)

Annatar Lord Of Gifts said:


> No they'll just attack the fans call us racist and sexist and blame it on the fans not liking it. They don't care. These people have no shame.


It's good to know there have been no racist or sexist attacks.


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## Lithóniel (Aug 16, 2022)

@Annatar Lord Of Gifts


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## Uminya (Aug 16, 2022)

Annatar Lord Of Gifts said:


> Anyway good riddance to them, it's entirely of their own making and they've made their bed. Looking forward to seeing all the mock and ridicule videos that will inevitably follow on youtube. THAT is the real entertainment we should be watching.



This is certainly a take.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 17, 2022)

I am enjoying all the anticipation certain people have, and the trailers seem good. Even if it is not very Tolkien, it may be good fantasy, and it will have Elves, which is a plus for me. Whether I watch or not.


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## Baron (Aug 18, 2022)

I'm excited for it, I think it's going to be interesting and fun discussing all the positives and negatives after we have all watched it. Yes plenty of Elves by the look of it Elbereth, what's not to like 😉


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 18, 2022)

Yes. Elves are amazing. That is a serious plus.
Are there Valar in it? Just curious-- cause then that is MAJOR plus.


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## Eljorahir (Aug 18, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Yes. Elves are amazing. That is a serious plus.
> Are there Valar in it? Just curious-- cause then that is MAJOR plus.


Here's one possible appearance of a Valar that I'm confident will be within the timeline of the series:

*"Then Manwe upon the Mountain called upon Iluvatar, and for that time the Valar laid down their government of Arda. But Iluvatar showed forth his power, and he changed the fashion of the world; and a great chasm opened in the sea..."*

However, I'm not sure I'd want to actually see a depiction of Manwe. Somehow, it seems irreverent.

(As a side note, the first clear night after this event everyone in Middle-earth will look at the starry sky and think: "The skies are strange.")


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 18, 2022)

Eljorahir said:


> Here's one possible appearance of a Valar that I'm confident will be within the timeline of the series:
> 
> *"Then Manwe upon the Mountain called upon Iluvatar, and for that time the Valar laid down their government of Arda. But Iluvatar showed forth his power, and he changed the fashion of the world; and a great chasm opened in the sea..."*
> 
> ...


Interesting. It would be unique to see Manwe on screen, that is for certain. 

The skies are strange, are they not?


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 18, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> The skies are strange, are they not?


Indeed they are, are they not? _Mysterious, changing, and unchangeable..._


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 18, 2022)

_Indeed. Unfathomably complex and yet intrinsically simple.._

(But again, we flow off topic...Pardon us, mods.)


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## The Void (Oct 1, 2022)

Firinne Gile said:


> Poll: What's your expectation/opinion about the new Amazon TV series The Rings of Power?


Having just seen the first episode a few hours ago. I can only say that it was boring and an exploitation of Tolkienism in its butchering by Amazon. If I could further add. To me it seems that Peter Jackson's effort was like that of the Valar - mighty in his effort to try as best he could. But Amazon's effort reeks of something akin to a 'distortion' of Tolkien's work, like as if Amazon was Sauron in disguise. The reviews show that this Series has brought nothing but 'discord' and corruption to anything canon. Sure, book stories are hard to adapt to film. But this first episode, would leave a potential new Tolkien fan's innocence surely corrupted. The reviews show that Tolkien fans are not impressed. I know I won't be watching further episodes. I won't add what else it pushes over Tolkienism. I'm not a Tolkien expert, but even blind Freddy would not be won over by this cash-in on Tolkien's works. Everything seems weak and 'cheap' about it, as if Amazon (Sauron) is convinced that us 'idiots' would love it. If no-one else can do another version because Amazon own all the rights. Then you will see a real drop in Tolkien popularity over the next decade. In fact, watching this episode made me embarressed to be a fan of Tolkien's works.


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## Ent (Oct 1, 2022)

The Void said:


> n fact, watching this episode made me embarressed to be a fan of Tolkien's works.


Thank you for sharing.
As "off-Tolkien" as it is, I trust you don't mind if I continue to see it as an opportunity rather than an embarrassment?
An opportunity, as people talk about it, to allow them their opinion if they enjoy it, while at the same time, gently pointing them to the Real Tolkien so they can discover something far more enjoyable?
Perhaps you can use your feeling of embarrassment to advantage somehow in the same way, and if/as people may talk about it, you can tell them with regard to the true Tolkien work, it's just a little embarrassing to you, and open a conversation with an appropriate "road sign to Tolkien" in hand for their direction.


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 1, 2022)

The Void said:


> Then you will see a real drop in Tolkien popularity over the next decade.


I'd say mostly just a severe drop in QUALITY in Tolkien product and a severe distortion of what "Tolkien" is.



The Enting said:


> Perhaps you can use your feeling of embarrassment to advantage somehow in the same way, and if/as people may talk about it, you can tell them with regard to the true Tolkien work, it's just a little embarrassing to you, and open a conversation with an appropriate "road sign to Tolkien" in hand for their direction.


The problem, to me, is that it distorts, in the public consciousness, what "Tolkien" looks like until that's what's accepted in the world.


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## Ent (Oct 1, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> QUALITY


Yes, perhaps you've "hit the nail with your head" here. (Paul Harvey).
All things seem to decline in Quality over time. (Note the education system, for example.)
And the tolerance for each step of the decline along the way becomes ever greater.
Thus in the end, there are fewer and fewer who know of and adhere to the fundamentals that once were.
The whole arena of Philology is a good example. 
So the acceptance of the decline in quality with regard to Tolkien's work(s) could lead to a corresponding decline in knowledge of the original.
But this is consistent with all of history as well.
Thus we remain diligent in holding up the "road signs" to the source as long as we can.
Such is life...



ZehnWaters said:


> it distorts, in the public consciousness, what "Tolkien" looks like until that's what's accepted in the world.


Indeed for many it will.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 1, 2022)

I'm afraid that ship sailed a couple of decades ago. I'll just repeat here a story related by one of our members at the time:

She was in a bookstore, right after the first film came out, contemplating a display of Tolkien books, when some teenage girls came by. "Oh, look!" cried one. "They've already done novelizations of the movies!"


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## Aldarion (Oct 1, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I'm afraid that ship sailed a couple of decades ago. I'll just repeat here a story related by one of our members at the time:
> 
> She was in a bookstore, right after the first film came out, contemplating a display of Tolkien books, when some teenage girls came by. "Oh, look!" cried one. "They've already done novelizations of the movies!"


Thank you for completely and comprehensively destroying what little remained of my faith in humanity.


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## Elthir (Oct 1, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> She was in a bookstore, . . .



OOH. I remember those.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 1, 2022)

Hey, they still exist, you know. My sister has one!


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## Elthir (Oct 1, 2022)

Can crazy cats in coats get discounts?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 1, 2022)

Sure. Just mention me, next time you're in Vermont.


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## Elthir (Oct 1, 2022)

I will. But even if I go there [somewhere in France?], it might take some time if there's more than one bookstore in this "Vermont" you speak of.

_*Vermont*_ [Green Mountain] . . . sounds made up. But I trust you SES.


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## The Void (Oct 1, 2022)

Wise and good words Enting. A very positive direction. But I can't help but feel the presence of Sauron behind all this Rings of Power version of Tolkienism.
I think it has done more ill, than good. As for the 'new Tolkien member' - well, this may be something akin to Melkor getting to the 'innocence' of Elves first at Cuivienen and the innocence of Men upon the eastern shores of the sea. Well Enting, you speak like a Valar trying to show true direction to potential new Tolkien fans with Valinor being 'Book' only, while Melkor (R. Murdoch) the Media is what charms but corrupts. There is a 'line' indeed between Art (Visual) and Media (Music, Entertainment). I am embarressed and ashamed to know Tolkienism, if this is the future of his works. I'll not follow that which turns from the path to follow Shadow.


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## Ent (Oct 1, 2022)

Aldarion said:


> completely and comprehensively destroying what little remained of my faith in humanity


Welcome to my club.


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## Ent (Oct 1, 2022)

The Void said:


> I'll not follow that which turns from the path to follow Shadow


Always before us are laid “choices.” And with each of those…
“We must each decide what to do with the time that is given to us.”
There is no error in holding an opinion. It only becomes error when it becomes our Religion.


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## The Void (Oct 1, 2022)

Well The Enting, Writing did inspire the creation of Religion. The Creation of Writing was given life in Sumeria long ago by the Priests of the Temple of Ur that worshipped what we call the Moon, but what they called as 'Sin' (ab-sin-nanna) hence the word : Sin-Ur (sinner). Used primarily for 'logistical' reasons, before a dude called Zarathustra collected all the local pagan stories to create, like Tolkien a new mythology based on 'duality' (good and evil). So in truth, Zoroastrianism is the first time 'Evil' came into the world and from that first 'religion' - came the following three monotheisms.


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## Ent (Oct 1, 2022)

A great topic for discussion, but not here. So I will refrain.


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## Annatar (Oct 3, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I'm afraid that ship sailed a couple of decades ago. I'll just repeat here a story related by one of our members at the time:
> 
> She was in a bookstore, right after the first film came out, contemplating a display of Tolkien books, when some teenage girls came by. "Oh, look!" cried one. "They've already done novelizations of the movies!"


Funnily enough, it won't work this time. When "The Fall of Númenor: And Other Tales from the Second Age of Middle-earth" is published soon, the Tolkien-illiterate series fans would be shocked because the book will have nothing to do with the series at all. 😄


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## Ent (Oct 3, 2022)

Annatar said:


> Funnily enough, it won't work this time.


Oddly, in many cases it just might. Since 'they've seen the series' they will think they already know it all, so why spend money on the novelizatin?

So by and large, I suspect it's still going to be up to 'the knowing' to point the way to the 'real Tolkien' so he can 'step forward'.


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 3, 2022)

The Enting said:


> Oddly, in many cases it just might. Since 'they've seen the series' they will think they already know it all, so why spend money on the novelizatin?
> 
> So by and large, I suspect it's still going to be up to 'the knowing' to point the way to the 'real Tolkien' so he can 'step forward'.


I'm hoping they'll do as I once stated: find the books a new source of hidden information.


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## Radaghast (Oct 4, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Sure. Just mention me, next time you're in Vermont.


LOL, I just got back from there a couple of days ago.


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## GENESYS (Nov 3, 2022)

Firinne Gile said:


> Sondage : Quelles sont vos attentes/opinions concernant la nouvelle série télévisée d'Amazon, The Rings of Power ?


Très loin de la vérité .version


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Nov 3, 2022)

Just a reminder: we're very glad to have many members from all over the world, but TTF is conducted in English, so we'd ask everyone to limit themselves to that language.


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## Elthir (Nov 3, 2022)

And for to passe the tyme al posts shal be "English", but for to gyue fayth and byleue that is al trewe that is conteyned herin, ye be at your lyberté.


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## Olorgando (Nov 3, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Just a reminder: we're very glad to have many members from all over the world, but TTF is conducted in English, so we'd ask everyone to limit themselves to that language.


JRRT could read everything written in period English from at least "Beowulf" onwards (roughly the last 1,200 plus years - and never mind that he breezed through all of that Old Norse = Icelandic stuff - Eddas, Sagas, whatnot). So perhaps a reference to "English" should be more "era-specific"? 
I mean, we have a book from 2017, published for the 500-year celebration of Martin Luther's 95 theses, with the original spelling used by him and those supporting or contradicting him in the 16th century. I had to basically had to read a lot of the stuff out loud to understand the very "non-standard" spelling - standardized spelling is something that only became standardized in the very late 19th or very early 20th century.

I certainly understood GENESYS's comment better than I might one from backwoods of the US, the UK, Australia or New Zealand - or for that matter Germany, Austria or Switzerland ... 😬


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## Ent (Nov 3, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> So perhaps a reference to "English" should be more "era-specific"?


Really don't think that is necessary. The intent is pretty clear.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Nov 3, 2022)

Yeah, I doubt anyone would think I meant Elizabethan English. Modern is fine.


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## Ent (Nov 3, 2022)

And I always have this if it's needed. But we digress just a bit...


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## Olorgando (Nov 3, 2022)

The Ent said:


> And I always have this if it's needed. But we digress just a bit...
> 
> View attachment 16907


Um - I have the vague impression a dictionary - *any* dictionary? - might help improve the scriptwriting? 🤔


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## Ent (Nov 3, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> might help improve


Indeed, there's always hope, isn't there.


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## Elthir (Nov 3, 2022)

The English that I mangled above is from *William Caxton’s edition of *_*Le Morte d’Arthur: *"to pass the time this book shall be pleasant to read in, but for to give faith and belief that all is true that is contained herein, ye be at your liberty."_​
Just sayin'
​
​


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## ArnorianRanger (Nov 3, 2022)

I do find it interesting how mainland European forums I’ve been apart of conducted in German and French are open to English posts, as opposed to English-speaking forums (typically American) that limit posts to English.

Not to foment rebellion () or anything, just something I’ve noticed.

Thanks,

AR


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## ZehnWaters (Nov 3, 2022)

ArnorianRanger said:


> I do find it interesting how mainland European forums I’ve been apart of conducted in German and French are open to English posts, as opposed to English-speaking forums (typically American) that limit posts to English.
> 
> Not to foment rebellion () or anything, just something I’ve noticed.
> 
> ...


If it's American, it's likely because we don't speak other languages as, at most, we only need to know 2 languages (English and Spanish) to travel from the top of our landmass to the bottom. And you could probably get away with only knowing one (English OR Spanish). In Europe you can travel a couple of hours and pass through 3 languages in two language families.


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## Ent (Nov 4, 2022)

ArnorianRanger said:


> I do find it interesting


Indeed, friend ArnorianRanger. After many years in the forest pondering communications, I've come to believe the rest of the world is (generally speaking) far better educated in diverse languages than we Americans. And while there are a few attributable excuses for this developmental phenomenon, there are no good reasons.

Yet it is what it is, and it seems for today's world English has become as the Common Speech - Westron - became for Middle-earth by the late Second Age. And likely due to much the same circumstances.

Honestly, there's one really good thing about that. We're so clumsy and inadequate in the use of our own language, we shouldn't go around wrecking other people's languages as well.


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## Elthir (Nov 4, 2022)

In my Silmarillion -- first edition -- the Ainur speak English. 

_ab ovo_


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## Annatar (Nov 10, 2022)

If we go back far enough in English, we might as well speak (Middle High) German.






Like the German-speaking combatants, I hardly understand anything when it comes to pure listening comprehension, but when I see the words written, at least half are clear.


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