# Numenoreans, elves in Tolkien's writing



## elladan (Sep 14, 2011)

I love all of Tolkien's writing, and I believe that the Lord of the Rings is the best fictional work written in modern times, with the possible exception of the Silmarillion. And of course, getting this out of the way is a prelude to me getting ready to criticize a specific aspect of Tolkien's legendarium that I am not particularly fond of.

The Numenoreans (and elves, although they do not play as large of a role in LoTR) are always held on a pedestal throughout the work. This is understandable, as both races have experiences (directly for the elves, and through their ancestors for the Numenoreans) higher things, greater civilizations than those that are in Middle-Earth. But, as an American and a firm believer that all men are created equal, I find the fact that the Numenoreans are always elevated over more "regular men" a little unattractive if not downright offensive. 

The Rohirrim are a perfect example of a more normal race of men that Tolkien tends to consider "secondary" to the Numenoreans. Actually, all said, I tend to like the Rohirrim presented in the story better than most of the elves and the Numenoreans. Those two races are always so grave, so bent on the past that the present and the future doesn't always seem to be of the essence.

The Rohirrim, on the other hand, do not have so much of the past to remember, so they live in the present, they look to the future instead of the past as the ancient races do. Their battle ready nature is often emphasized, but many people forget that this was tempered by mercy, as the men of Dunland found out at Helm's Deep. And also, there is the fact that the Rohirrim are for the most part very down to earth and kind. Look at the way Theoden treated Merry. He treated him like a father would treat a son, with kindness and gentleness, without much apparent reason for doing so except his good nature. Contrast this with Denethor's treatment of Pippin (before he lost it at the end.) He was polite,but always grave and detached. Maybe the Rohirrim are less noble in some respects, but they also seem like a much happier people. 

And there can be no debate that the Rohirrim are as brave in battle as any race. One reading of the Battle of the Pelennor Fields shows us that the bravery of Eowyn, Eomer, and Theoden is no less than that of any Numenorean, not even Aragorn. So why does Tolkien always have the Rohirrim play second fiddle? Why are the Numenoreans the "high" race of men, while the Rohirrim are the men of the twilight? The Rohirrim are the ones that kept fighting while most of the soldiers of Gondor were quaking in fear behind close gates. It simply does not make any sense to me, and in my opinion it is really one of only a few significant taints in an incredible work. It's not like it even comes close to ruining my enjoyment of Tolkien's writing, but it just seems to me an unpleasant sub-current.

Thoughts?


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## Mouth_Of_Sauron (Sep 14, 2011)

maybe you're confusing the rohirrim with the dunedain?


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## elladan (Sep 14, 2011)

No, I'm not. The Dunedain are precisely the group that I get a little tired of Tolkien always elevating over the Rohirrim and other similar peoples. I just don't see why I am supposed to believe that they are innately superior, just because of who their ancestors were.


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## Thorin (Sep 14, 2011)

Elladan,

Nobody, especially not Tolkien, is saying that the Rohirrim are less brave or noble in spirit than the Numenoreans.

However, in Middle Earth, status and heritage mean alot. Elves were the highest created beings of Eru. Their lineage is prestigious.The Numenoreans were direct descendants of Elros who's great-great grandfathers were Finwe and Olwe, two Elves that awoke at the beginning. Because of this, their lifespan was greatly increased. They created the northern and southern kingdoms of Middle Earth. They did great things for Middle Earth.


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## elladan (Sep 14, 2011)

Thorin said:


> Elladan,
> 
> Nobody, especially not Tolkien, is saying that the Rohirrim are less brave or noble in spirit than the Numenoreans.
> 
> However, in Middle Earth, status and heritage mean alot. Elves were the highest created beings of Eru. Their lineage is prestigious.The Numenoreans were direct descendants of Elros who's great-great grandfathers were Finwe and Olwe, two Elves that awoke at the beginning. Because of this, their lifespan was greatly increased. They created the northern and southern kingdoms of Middle Earth. They did great things for Middle Earth.


Yes, I realize that the Numenoreans _have _done great things in the past. But I am making the case that doesn't matter a whole lot. What actually matters is what an individual is capable and/or willing to do in the present. And, with no exceptions except for Frodo and Sam, you'd have to admit that the Rohirrim were the ones that actually were really most responsible for the victory for preventing total defeat at the hands of Mordor. Gondor, the home of the "High" people of Numenorean lineage, would have fallen utterly without the timely help of the Rohirrim. With the exception of Faramir and Co. at Osgilliath and the Rammas Echor, and the Knights of Dol Amroth who fought bravely, the soldiers of Gondor (who are the folk of Numenorean descent that we are supposed to revere over all others) were doing almost nothing for their own defense. Let's face it, Eomer and Theoden and Eowyn are every bit as crucial in the defeat of Sauron as even Aragorn! And yet they are always regarded as a secondary people, a kingdom that is in some way thought less important than Gondor. I just don't get it.

I don't want to come of as being negative here about what is such a wonderful piece of writing. But I think that any work as great as Tolkien's legendarium deserves a critical eye. I would not waste my time thinking so much about a lesser work.


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## Prince of Cats (Sep 15, 2011)

elladan said:


> Yes, I realize that the Numenoreans _have _done great things in the past. But I am making the case that doesn't matter a whole lot. *What actually matters is what an individual is capable and/or willing to do in the present.*



When I read your topic yesterday that talked of how the Elves are elevated in the literature ... I can see why you would say that based just off of the Lord of the Rings. If we look at the Silmarillion, though, our focus is often on Elves who dishonorable. Feanor is the grand example. Yes, he was a great smith, but he also did so in the land of the Valar - there isn't really an equivalent to that for American equality. But for me, though the reading, it isn't his _greatness_ that's emphasized. It's his foolish pride and his betrayals, which are worse than we ever (IMO) see any mortal doing. Also, it's hard to translate Elves vs. Humans to American equality because we're all humans. It doesn't say all men and elves are created equal. The Elves are like a different species. If it was "all men and bears are created equal" I don't think people would think the bears slighted by history for not making computer chips. I also wouldn't be upset as a human if people generally regarded bears at being better to catch salmon with their bare hands  



Thorin said:


> However, in Middle Earth, status and heritage mean alot. *Elves were the highest created beings of Eru*.



What's that mean? Rather, is that you feeling on them or does Tolkien actually call them 'highest' or superior? If it isn't, we need to remember that as mortals we can't properly appreciate the gift of mortality


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## elladan (Sep 15, 2011)

Prince of Cats said:


> It doesn't say all men and elves are created equal. The Elves are like a different species.


You just aren't reading it close enough. :*cool:

In all seriousness I agree with your premise as far as the elves go. I should have left them out of this discussion for simplicity's sake, because they are rather a different species and it is hard to compare that situation to anything in the "real world". But the way Numenoreans are contrasted other races of men in Middle Earth, that is a different story entirely. I guess I just am not comfortable with the idea of a "master race" of men in any work of literature, no matter how wonderful it is in all other respects. Maybe that summarizes all of my rambling better than what I've said before.

I know Tolkien had no intention of it coming across this way, and furthermore I understand his ideology well enough that I know well that in the real world, he was very respectful and non-discriminatory towards all races, to the point of being far ahead of his time. I have nothing but admiration for the Professor, but I still find the "Numenorean aspect" of LotR to be at least a little unattractive.


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## Alex (Sep 19, 2011)

Well, the numenoreans are descendants of those who survived the war of wrath and through centuries they prospered and absorved the knowledge of the high elves, who themselves had absorved it from the Valar.

It's only fair that the few of them who still survive would be in a higher level than the other races of men, since they had a much closer relationship with the high elves and were trained in their milenar ways. The descendants of Elros still carry a small part of the blessing that the Valar conceded to him. In that aspect, they can't be compared to most rohirrim. 
Also, Aragorns mightiness is not to be doubted in my opinion, because he is the direct heir of isildur and everything that happened was part of his destiny.

But I don't think it means that they are stronger in will or more brave. They have just been more preparated for everything that happened. 
I believe if a man of rohirrim heritage had been raised since a child between the numenoreans, he would be just as good as them.

Sorry for my english.


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## elladan (Sep 19, 2011)

Alex said:


> Well, the numenoreans are descendants of those who survived the war of wrath and through centuries they prospered and absorved the knowledge of the high elves, who themselves had absorved it from the Valar.
> 
> It's only fair that the few of them who still survive would be in a higher level than the other races of men, since they had a much closer relationship with the high elves and were trained in their milenar ways. The descendants of Elros still carry a small part of the blessing that the Valar conceded to him. In that aspect, they can't be compared to most rohirrim.
> Also, Aragorns mightiness is not to be doubted in my opinion, because he is the direct heir of isildur and everything that happened was part of his destiny.
> ...


You make good points. And your english is excellent by the way.


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