# Humans and the use of magical artefacts



## Thorondor_ (Aug 7, 2005)

In letter 155, Tolkien makes the following remark regarding magic and humans:


> Anyway, a difference in the use of 'magic' in this story is that it is not to be come by by 'lore' or spells; but it is an inherent power not possessed or attainable by Men as such. Aragorn's 'healing' might be regarded as 'magical', or at least a blend of magic with pharmacy and 'hypnotic' processes. But it is (in theory) reported by hobbits who have very little notions of philosophy and science; while Aragorn is not pure 'Man', but at long remove one of the 'children of Luthien'.


Are magical objects usable by humans? Or do they represent mere objects for them?


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## The Tall Hobbit (Aug 7, 2005)

The nine ring wraiths were originally human and they were able to use the magic powers granted by their rings.


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## Greenwood (Aug 8, 2005)

Sting is magical in that it glows near orcs, yet Bilbo, Frodo and Sam all use it.
The Phial of Galadriel is a magic object and it works for both Frodo and Sam.
The elven rope has magic properties that work just fine for Sam.
The palantir was obviously used by Denethor (and presumably the Stewards before him).

(added in edit) Sam uses Galadriel's gift in replanting the Shire and clearly gets "magical" results, so the earth from Galadriel's garden certainly was magical.
The elven cloaks the Fellowship were given in Lothlorien seemed to have magical camouflage ability that all wearers seemed to benefit from.
The elven boat that Boromir's body was placed in seems to have "magically" survived the Falls of Rauros and floated down to the sea.


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## Adiemus (Sep 8, 2005)

Humans were able to make magical things, not only to use them. See chapter "The Druedain" in "The Unfinished Tales": this race built stone figures, which had ability to move and kill attacking Orcs.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Sep 8, 2005)

I do not believe there is such a thing as a "magical object" in Tolkien's works. Don't get me wrong, there are rings of power, elven rope, elven boats, palantiri, and much, much more in Tolkien's works, but we must define the word "magic."

"Magic" in Tolkien can either mean something that is supernatural and has to be created (i.e. by spells, incantations and the like).

Or, "magic" in Tolkien can be simply a word that the simple folk (such as Hobbits and lower men) have used to describe things they do not understand. This is my view.

A human could not create elven rope. Only an elf could. I do not even think Gandalf could create elven rope. Elves have special talents and so does every other race. You could compare this idea to humans: one human becomes a rocket scientist and sends a space shuttle to the moon. Then there's me. I simply could not do that. However, I may be able to write a New York Times bestseller and the rocket scientist could not. With the races of Middle-earth this same philosophy is true, but of course with a bigger devision because there are actually different races (you could argue that I _could_ become a rocket scientist if I studied hard enough . . . with different races you can't argue this). Elves can do things Hobbits can't. Not because it's "magic" but just because they can. It's in their nature. Hobbits can do things Elves can't. Elves can do things Wizards can't. The men of Numenor can do things that the lesser men cannot

I will admit that in Tolkien's earlier writings he mentioned "magic" more than he did in his later works. I believe that the feelings he mentioned in his letter (quoted by Thorondor) grew over time. He may have started out with a more "supernatural" view of magic (definitely not a strong one, but still there), but over time this changed to what he voiced in his letter.

These objects are definitely usable by humans! Just like with the space shuttle that the rocket scientists built. Other people can _use_ it, but they can't make it. So, elves can make elven rope and the Hobbits can use it.


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## Daranavo (Sep 9, 2005)

Though an elf may be inherently in tune with magic, he has to be taught. A human also can be taught though it may be much more difficult for them to learn. In middle-earth there are several different areas of magic though they are not spoken about very much. Mentalism was very obvious with the elves. However, Elrond was a Healer and Channeler. Where Gandalf was an Elementalist and may of had a connection to one of both of the other realms and maybe even Arcane magics. It is not written specificially however, certain events depicted such. It was magic that healed Frodo from his deadly wound. Magic that stayed the Balrog, and magic that allowed elves to read anothers mind. I would say a mordor blade is magical as well as all of the rings. They could not be created by just anyone, only those that could wield that type of magic that was instilled within the item. Sting was made by the elves and obviously had a type of warding magic placed within it to alert its wearer when orcs were nearby.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Sep 9, 2005)

> Though an elf may be inherently in tune with magic, he has to be taught.


I completely disagree with this. The "magic" (I only use the word for lack of confusion) in Tolkien's work is not learned. It is inborn. It may perhaps have to be discovered (i.e. a young elf will not know as much about what he can do as an older elf), but definitely not "taught" as though from a book titled _Elves and their power: what we can do that humans can't!_

Also, look at the Maiar. They _never_ had to learn their powers, and (apart from the Valar) they are considered the most powerful creatures in all of Middle-earth. Eru gave them their powers and they had them. That was that.

I will use Feanor as another example. No one ever taught him how to make the Silmarills. He just made them. How?

Does this mean they cannot grow in their talents and learn from other races? No, it just means that they don't learn their "powers" from a book. Even if left completely to themselves, I believe that elves and men could come to their full potential. It's just like us today. A baby cannot write a New York Times bestseller. I cannot write a New York Times bestseller. Will I write one someday? I may! They grow, but never in a way that is to "teach" them how to use their powers.

I will use as an example Eol from The Sil. He learned much of his smithy craft from the Naugrim (which, containing no "powerful" or "magical" elements is understandable). But who "taught" him how to put enchantments around Nan Emloth? No one. But still, he was able to use enchantments.



> A human also can be taught though it may be much more difficult for them to learn.


Where do you get that? A human can most definitely not do what elves do. Yes, men of the Race of Numenor may be able to get closer to Elven Lore, but that is only because they have elven blood in their veins. A regular man could never give a piece of rope the power that elven rope has. He simply lacks the ability.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Sep 9, 2005)

Thorondor_ said:


> In letter 155, Tolkien makes the following remark regarding magic and humans:
> 
> Are magical objects usable by humans? Or do they represent mere objects for them?



I think there is need for some prefatory questions to be answered first before we can approach the subject of your present questions:

• Does magic indeed exist?
• If so, what is it? How does it work? How is it to be controlled?
• Is magic a true property of Reality, or is it a human belief?

Barley


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## Daranavo (Sep 9, 2005)

> The "magic" (I only use the word for lack of confusion) in Tolkien's work is not learned. It is inborn. It may perhaps have to be discovered (i.e. a young elf will not know as much about what he can do as an older elf), but definitely not "taught" as though from a book titled _Elves and their power: what we can do that humans can't! _


 
Not all elves shared the same aptitude with magic. Some were warriors or artisans. Others may of been leaders. It is true that elves may have innate magical abilities however, I can not agree that as a race, they all have it just as strongly as one another. Those that showed great promise were taught how to develope it further. Not all could read each others minds and the minds of others. Not all could heal wounds as Elrond had to of learned to do. The Rangers were a mysterious group. I believe this was because they learned magic that involved nature. 



> Also, look at the Maiar. They _never_ had to learn their powers, and (apart from the Valar) they are considered the most powerful creatures in all of Middle-earth. Eru gave them their powers and they had them. That was that.


 
This is true however it was because they were given knowledge as well as their power. Elves just like humans are not born with knowledge only ability.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Sep 9, 2005)

I think we semi-somewhat agree but are just saying sort of the same thing in a different way. 

I agree, not all the elves could "mind read" or "heal" as well as others. I think it's just like the race of humans though. Some people make great teachers. Others make great politicians. The teacher _could_ decide to become a politician if he/she wanted to. However, he/she might not make as good of a politician as someone else would. It's talents _within_ a race. Everyone has the capability to do the things . . . just not everyone is as good as everyone else at doing them.

Legolas could have had the potential to read minds. Galadriel could read minds, and do you know why? She lived in the Blessed Realm for a long time. There she learned many things. She was also one of the oldest elves left in Middle-earth. She had a lot more time to learn things than Legolas did. She had experience and definitely _learned_ more about powers, etc., but not in a mind reading class, imo. If Legolas visited Aman and lived as long as Galadriel, I don't doubt that he too would be able to read minds. I think healing is the same story.

I am not saying that elves couldn't learn things to develop their strengths. If an elf were to sit down with Manwe and have a chat, I'm sure he would learn a lot about himself and his powers! I just don't believe that elves were "taught" how to use their powers. They learned them . . . just like you and me learn how to have confidence or how to love.



> The Rangers were a mysterious group. I believe this was because they learned magic that involved nature.


I disagree. The Rangers were the last descendants of the Men of Numenor. They had Luthien's blood in their veins . . . thus they had some "elf" abilities.


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## Thorondor_ (Sep 9, 2005)

> A human could not create elven rope. Only an elf could


I disagree; as the elfs tell Sam at his departure from Lothlorien:


> They are made of hithlain, said the Elf, but there is no time now to instruct you in the art of their making. Had we known that this craft delighted you, we could have taught you much. But now alas! unless you should at some time return hither, you must be content with our gift. May it serve you well!


Imo, this quote tells us that humans too (hobbits being a branch of them) can be instructed in their art of rope making.


> Does magic indeed exist?


I believe so.


> If so, what is it? How does it work? How is it to be controlled?


I think it relates to controlling energy around you and putting it to some use - though you have to have some innate gift for this - as Tolkien himself pointed out in the letter quoted above and as other members said too.


> Is magic a true property of Reality, or is it a human belief?


I think that magic is a natural part of Reality, while humans are somewhat handicaped, by not being able to work with it as elves/maiar do.


> Not all [elves] could read each others minds and the minds of others


I disagree (from Osanwe-kenta):


> A mind by its nature perceives another mind directly. But it cannot perceive more than the existence of another mind (as something other than itself, though of the same order) except by the will of both parties . The degree of will, however, need not be the same in both parties. If we call one mind G (for guest or comer) and the other H (for host or receiver), then G must have full intention to inspect H or to inform it. But knowledge may be gained or imparted by G, even when H is not seeking or intending to impart or to learn: the act of G will be effective, if H is simply "open" (lata; latie "openness"). This distinction, he says[Pengolodh], is of the greatest importance.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Sep 11, 2005)

> Imo, this quote tells us that humans too (hobbits being a branch of them) can be instructed in their art of rope making.


Forgive me for not making myself clear. I agree, the Hobbits could have been instructed in the art of rope-making. But I do not believe they could have endowed the rope with the "Elven" qualities that it possessed. IMO, Elven rope made by Hobbits would have been just like normal rope, maybe better quality, but not much more. On the other hand, Elven rope made by Elves would be different. This rope is able to repel darkness:


> There indeed at the bottom was a coil of the silken-grey rope made by the folk of Lorien. He cast an end to his master. The darkness seemed to lift from Frodo's eyes, or else his sight was returning. He could see the grey line as it came dangling down, and he thought it had a faint silver sheen.


Also:


> 'A pity I didn't think of bringing another length,' said Frodo; 'but I left the Company in such a hurry and confusion. If only we had enough we could use it to get down. How long is your rope, I wonder?'
> 
> Sam paid it out slowly, measuring it with his arms: 'Five, ten, twenty, thirty ells, more or less,' he said.
> 
> 'Who'd have thought it!' Frodo exclaimed.


And then the rope suddenly unties itself:


> 'Then the rope must have broken-frayed on the rock-edge, I expect.' said Frodo.
> 
> 'I bet it didn't!' said Sam in an even more injured voice. He stooped and examined the ends. 'Nor it hasn't neither. Not a strand!'
> 
> ...


I don't think Hobbit-made Elven rope could have done this . . . just Elven-made Elven rope.


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## Thorondor_ (Sep 12, 2005)

> I don't think Hobbit-made Elven rope could have done this . . . just Elven-made Elven rope.


Imo, all the secrets of the rope resided in its raw material - hithlain. So if you were able to produce such a substance (and I think that this is what that elf from the boat said he would teach Sam), then you are able to make such ropes. It's just a speculation, since the refference to this substance I found only once, in Farewell to Lorien.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Sep 12, 2005)

Hmm . . . interesting. That's another thing to add to the list of what we'd like to ask Tolkien. Who knows! I wonder if he ever even had an answer to that question!


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 13, 2005)

> Legolas could have had the potential to read minds. Galadriel could read minds, and do you know why? She lived in the Blessed Realm for a long time. There she learned many things. She was also one of the oldest elves left in Middle-earth. She had a lot more time to learn things than Legolas did. She had experience and definitely learned more about powers, etc., but not in a mind reading class, imo. If Legolas visited Aman and lived as long as Galadriel, I don't doubt that he too would be able to read minds. I think healing is the same story.



I disagree. We must take the inveterate characteristics of each individual into account. Everyone is not simply the same, able to develop full power in every field, given enough time. Galadriel was one of the greatest elves, clearly superior to Legolas by leaps and bounds.



Daranavo said:


> The Rangers were a mysterious group. I believe this was because they learned magic that involved nature.



I doubt they learned any sort of magic. I see rangers as being skilled in scouting, pathfinding, logistics, stealth, combat, nature lore and similar types of 'knowledge'. These could all be learned, more or less, but it wouldn't hurt if one had a natural inclination towards, or talent in, one of these fields.



Thorondor_ said:


> I disagree; as the elfs tell Sam at his departure from Lothlorien:
> Quote:
> 
> 
> ...



The elf tells Sam that the elves could have taught him _much_ about rope making, not that after their 'training' Sam would be able to produce genuine elf rope. It may well be that the elves would have shown him how to best create a quality rope according to his own stature, giving him practical tips, but they could not teach him how to infuse it with elf magic. On the other hand, it would be interesting to explore the possibility of 'magic' being in the _hithlain_ substance, rather than the elves themselves, but I am still of the opinion that it is the elves who make the rope 'magical', at least to some extent if not all the way.



Thorondor_ said:


> I disagree (from Osanwe-kenta):



But what exactly are you disagreeing with? Does Osanwe-kenta claim that all elves can read minds, regardless of their abilities?


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## Thorondor_ (Sep 13, 2005)

> The elf tells Sam that the elves could have taught him _much_ about rope making, not that after their 'training' Sam would be able to produce genuine elf rope.


I don't think it's of rope making in general that they would have taught him, if this is what you implied, but of the specific elven ropes. And the only thing that could limit Sam's ability to make elven ropes (as resulting from the context) is time.


> Does Osanwe-kenta claim that all elves can read minds, regardless of their abilities?


It is e even more general than that, it says Incarnates (as opposed to the valar) "have by the nature of sama [mind] the same faculties" i.e. communication of thought. Even if the hroa of the incarnates dims the power of thought transmission (together with the habitual use of language), three sources of strengthening it are mentioned: 


> *Affinity* may be due to kinship; for this may increase the likeness of hroa to hroa, and so of the concerns and modes of thought of the indwelling fear, kinship is also normally accompanied by love and sympathy. Affinity may come simply from love and friendship, which is likeness or affinity of fea to fea.
> *Urgency* is imparted by great need of the "sender" (as in joy, grief or fear); and if these things are in any degree shared by the "receiver" the thought is the clearer received.
> *Authority* may also lend force to the thought of one who has a duty towards another, or of any ruler who has a right to issue commands or to seek the truth for the good of others.
> These causes may strengthen the thought to pass the veils and reach a recipient mind.


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