# How come Sauron didn't "die" but Saruman and Gandalf both did?



## BalrogRingDestroyer (Jul 24, 2018)

Gandalf appears to have died and been born as something else, for he seems to have trouble even recalling what went on earlier or even the name "Gandalf". 

Saruman definitely dies as well

I think the Balrog was said to have died as well. 


Sauron, even when his Ring was destroyed, was just said to have become a spirit of malice (presumably because he wouldn't be able to take form in Middle Earth again.) (Also, can he still corrupt or seduce people since he's still in Middle Earth (unlike Melkor who got sent into the Void.) even without a physical form, or is he too weak even to do that?)


Why couldn't Sauron actually die (despite being drowned in Numenor and defeated at the Battle of the Last Alliance or even when his Ring was destroyed.) when Gandalf, Saruman, and the Balrog could die? 


Interestingly, Melkor, despite being defeated (and either having his legs cut off or even his head (depending on which Tolkien work you look at) was said to still be alive and be able to later return at the Dagor Dagorlath. Did Sauron get some ability from him that none of the other Maia (good or bad) were able to get or use?


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## Alcuin (Jul 25, 2018)

In the first place, Sauron was far more powerful than either Saruman or Gandalf. In a footnote to _Letter_ 183, Tolkien says that Sauron was “of the same kind [i.e., a Maia] as Gandalf and Saruman, but of a far higher order.” Little wonder that when Manwë ordered Olórin (later called Mithrandir and Gandalf) to accompany Curumo (Curunír or Saruman) to Middle-earth as one of the Istari, Olórin pleaded that he was afraid of Sauron. (_Unfinished Tales_, “The Istari”) I think I recall (from where I no longer recall) that Sauron, originally one of Aulë’s Maiar and called “Mairon” (Quenya “Admirable”; ), was one of the most powerful of the Maiar. 

When Gandalf died, he died physically. As cited in the thread “Did the Ring's own power cause its destruction?”


> [The Valar and Maiar] often took the form and likeness of [Elves and Men], especially after their appearance. …Sauron appeared in this shape. It is mythologically supposed that when this shape was “real”, that is a physical actuality in the physical world and not a vision transferred from mind to mind, it took some time to build up. It was then destructible like other physical organisms. But that of course did not destroy the spirit, nor dismiss it from the world to which it was bound until the end. After the battle with Gil-galad and Elendil, Sauron took a long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the Downfall of Númenor (I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, which might be called the “will” or the effective link between the indestructible mind and being and the realization of its imagination). The impossibility of re-building after the destruction of the Ring, is sufficiently clear “mythologically” in _[The Lord of the Rings]_.


Ainur (Valar and Maiar) who entered into Arda were bound to it until its end, as were Elves, but when Gandalf died, he seems to have “gone somewhere”: back to Valinor, perhaps, or summoned to Eru; in any case, when he returned he was Gandalf “the White” and much more powerful than he had been before. When Wormtongue killed Saruman, “about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing.” (_RotK_, end of “Scouring of the Shire”) Saruman wanted to return to Valinor, but was rejected. 

The Maiar who entered Middle-earth as Istari were deliberately weakened: their memory of Valinor and their pasts was diminished. (_UT_, “Istari”)


> [B]eing embodied the Istari had … to learn much anew by slow experience, and though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which … they yearned exceedingly. Thus by enduring of free will the pangs of exile and the deceits of Sauron they might redress the evils of that time.



From _Morgoth’s Ring_, “Myths Transformed”,


> [I]s it likely or possible that even the least of the Maiar would become Orcs? Yes: both outside Arda and in it… Melkor had corrupted many spirits – some great, as Sauron, or less so, as Balrogs. The least could have been primitive (and much more powerful and perilous) Orcs; but by practising when embodied procreation they would (cf. Melian) [become] _[sic]_ more and more earthbound, unable to return to spirit-state (even demon-form), until released by death (killing), and they would dwindle in force. When released they would, of course, like Sauron, be “damned”: … reduced to impotence…: still hating but unable … to make it effective physically…



Melkor’s regeneration leading to the Dagor Dagorath is the result of his inherent power as the greatest of the Valar. Again from “Myths Transformed”,


> The dark spirit of Melkor’s “remainder” might be expected … long ages to increase again, … to draw back into itself some of its formerly dissipated power. It would do this (even if Sauron could not) because of its relative greatness. It did not repent, … but retained still relics of wisdom… It would rest, seek to heal itself, distract itself by other thoughts and desires and devices — but all … to recover enough strength to return to the attack on the Valar… As it grew again it would become … a dark shadow, breeding on the confines of Arda…
> 
> Nonetheless the breaking of Thangorodrim and the extrusion of Melkor was the end of “Morgoth” as such, and for that age (and many ages after).



Valar and Maiar could shift shape and regenerate themselves; Elves could not achieve regeneration of their bodies without the assistance and thus the permission of the Valar: Fëanor was imprisoned in Mandos (the fortress commanded by the Vala Irmo Námo from which he received his sobriquet (or nickname)) until the end of Time. Only when they were weakened could they no longer achievement embodiment. Long embodiment, or participating in procreation as did Melian or the Umaiar-orcs: e.g., Boldog, who was slain in battle by Elu Thingol. Again from “Myths Transformed”,


> Morgoth had many servants, the oldest and most potent of whom were immortal, belonging indeed in their beginning to the Maiar; and these evil spirits like their Master could take on visible forms. Those whose business it was to direct the Orcs often took Orkish shapes, though they were greater and more terrible. Thus it was that the histories speak of Great Orcs or Orc-captains who were not slain, and who reappeared in battle through years far longer than the span of the lives of Men.



This building-up of physical embodiment took time and energy, and Maiar who took physical form were at pains to avoid disembodiment. From _Silmarillion_, “Of Beren and Lúthien”, this description of battle between Wolf-Sauron and Huan the Hound of Valinor:


> Sauron knew … the fate that was decreed for [Huan], and it came into his thought that he himself would accomplish it. Therefore he took upon himself the form of a werewolf, and made himself the mightiest that had yet walked the world…
> 
> …Sauron sprang upon Lúthien; and she swooned before the menace of the fell spirit in his eyes and the foul vapor of his breath. But … he stumbled… Then Huan sprang. There befell the battle of Huan and Wolf-Sauron…
> 
> ...



After Elu Thingol of Doriath paid the Dwarven smiths of Nogrod to set the Silmaril Beren and Lúthien wrested from Morgoth’s crown in the Nauglamír, they greedily tried to steal it for themselves. When he insulted them, they murdered him. His wife Melian the Maia, mother of Lúthien, was bound to her physical form as well. From _Silmarillion_, “Of the Ruin of Doriath”,


> Melian sat long in silence beside Thingol the King, … and she knew that her parting from Thingol was the forerunner of a greater parting, and that the doom of Doriath was drawing nigh. For Melian was … a Maia of great power and wisdom; but for love of Elwe Singollo she took upon herself the form of the Elder Children of Ilúvatar, and in that union she became bound by the chain and trammels of the flesh of Arda. In that form she bore to him Lúthien Tinúviel; and in that form she gained a power over the substance of Arda, and by the Girdle of Melian was Doriath defended through long ages from the evils without. But now Thingol lay dead, … and with his death a change came also upon Melian. Thus it came to pass that her power was withdrawn … and Doriath lay open to its enemies.
> 
> Thereafter Melian … vanished out of Middle-earth, and passed to the land of the Valar … to muse upon her sorrows in the gardens of Lórien…


From this passage it sounds as if Melian voluntarily gave up her physical form, or else abandoned it, as did Lúthien her daughter after Beren was killed by Carcharoth the Wolf. 

As a final observation, Sauron could not be “destroyed” while the Ring existed. Neither could the foundations of Barad-dûr be removed: Sauron constructed them using his innate power, which he subsequently placed into his Ruling Ring: upon its destruction, not only was he permanently disembodied, but his magnificent fortress crumbled. (Cf. the situation with Koschei the Deathless of Russian folklore, who has hidden his soul in a series of defenses which, as long as they remain, render him immortal.) As long as the Ring remained, his innate power was never scattered, and he could re-embody himself, though each subsequent re-embodiment took longer and was more difficult. Once the Ring was destroyed, his power was forever dissipated, and he was rendered impotent, “maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape,” as Gandalf put it to the Captains of the West in “The Last Debate”.


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## Ron Simpson (Jul 25, 2018)

Nice post Alcuin. The explanation of Sauron's condition makes sense to me, but I’m having trouble squaring your 4 quotes relating to Melian’s situation:

_1. [The Valar and Maiar] often took the form and likeness of [Elves and Men], especially after their appearance. …Sauron appeared in this shape. It is mythologically supposed that when this shape was “real”, that is a physical actuality in the physical world and not a vision transferred from mind to mind, it took some time to build up. It was then destructible like other physical organisms. But that of course did not destroy the spirit, nor dismiss it from the world to which it was bound until the end. _

_2. Ainur (Valar and Maiar) who entered into Arda were bound to it until its end, as were Elves, but when Gandalf died, he seems to have “gone somewhere”:

3. The Sil Quote: For Melian was … a Maia of great power and wisdom; but for love of Elwe Singollo she took upon herself the form of the Elder Children of Ilúvatar, and in that union she became bound by the chain and trammels of the flesh of Arda. _

_4. The Sil Quote: Thereafter Melian … vanished out of Middle-earth, and passed to the land of the Valar … to muse upon her sorrows in the gardens of Lórien…_

Ok, so my question/confusion is: How was Melian’s spirit allowed to return to Aman? Embodiment that was further complicated by procreative activity should have intertwined her spirit more deeply with Arda than most others. Shouldn’t she (her spirit) then have been bound to the world until its end? Could it be that Eru gave her the same type of ‘get-out-of-jail card’ that Gandalf got?


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## Starbrow (Jul 25, 2018)

Aman is considered part of Arda, so Melian would have been allowed to return to Aman.


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## Alcuin (Jul 25, 2018)

Ron Simpson said:


> Ok, so my question/confusion is: How was Melian’s spirit allowed to return to Aman? Embodiment that was further complicated by procreative activity should have intertwined her spirit more deeply with Arda than most others. Shouldn’t she (her spirit) then have been bound to the world until its end? Could it be that Eru gave her the same type of ‘get-out-of-jail card’ that Gandalf got?





Starbrow said:


> Aman is considered part of Arda, so Melian would have been allowed to return to Aman.


*Starbrow* has the answer to your question, *Ron Simpson*.

The question concerning Gandalf is a little different. Tolkien says in _Letters_ 156 that “the Authority”, presumably Eru Himself, took over the plan set in motion by the Valar to offset Sauron.


> [Gandalf] was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. “Naked I was sent back – for a brief time, until my task is done”. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the “gods” [i.e., the Valar] whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed “out of thought and time”.


Frodo in his vision in the Mirror of Galadriel saw Gandalf “out of thought and time”, but was unsure whether it was Gandalf or Saruman he saw: that was the night before the Company of the Ring left Lórien: Gandalf arrived in Lórien the very next day after the Company of the Ring had departed. 

Where did Gandalf go? I think Tolkien is hinting that his spirit left the Circles of Arda, the created world, just as the souls of Men leave the Circles of Arda when Men die. Elves cannot leave Arda; neither can the Valar or Maiar under normal circumstances: their decision to enter Arda was a one-way ticket.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jul 25, 2018)

My impression was that "vanished" simply meant she left --physically. But it's been a long time -- I'll have to reread.


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## Alcuin (Jul 25, 2018)

Tolkien says that Melian was a Maia in the Gardens of Lórien in Valinor, a servant of the Valar Estë and Vána in her origins. _Silmarillion_ tells that after Thingol died, “she vanished out of Middle-earth, and passed to the land of the Valar beyond the western sea, to muse upon her sorrows in the gardens of Lórien, whence she came…”


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## Ron Simpson (Jul 26, 2018)

Starbrow said:


> Aman is considered part of Arda, so Melian would have been allowed to return to Aman.


Thanks ! (Answer was hiding in plain sight)


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## Jordan Thomas (Nov 8, 2018)

BalrogRingDestroyer said:


> Gandalf appears to have died and been born as something else, for he seems to have trouble even recalling what went on earlier or even the name "Gandalf".
> 
> Saruman definitely dies as well
> 
> ...


I believe being the greatest servant of morgorth he would gain extra power, and being the most powerful Maia,he would be immortal,more so than other Maia


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