# Most evil person in LotRs?



## Lomin... (Mar 24, 2004)

What think you?...


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## Turin (Mar 24, 2004)

I never disliked any of the characters on the poll. The ones I really hated are the filthy pointy ears!


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## Witch-King (Mar 24, 2004)

Id have to say Golum


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## Elessar II (Mar 24, 2004)

Wow, this poll has been up for 4 and a half hours, and I'm the first to vote for Sauron?  

Am I mistaken in voting for Sauron? Coz' I thought that this was the dude who made everyone else evil.  

BTW, why is PJ included in this poll? For one thing, I don't quite remember him being in the Lord of the Rings.


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## Melian_the_Maya (Mar 25, 2004)

I chose Shelob cause I don't like spiders.

Well, the pole said, which one do you "love to hate" most not which was was most evil. I dislike Shelob even more than Sauron, because Sauron at least is mighty, is strong, has a pride aura about him. Shelob on the other hand has all its thoughtses on food, yesss precioussss.


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## Dúnadan (Mar 25, 2004)

I'm having trouble choosing between Sauron and the Witch-King...


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## Lantarion (Mar 25, 2004)

Sauron was a too clear-cut personification of evil; Melkor was cool, and the epitome of evil, but Sauron didn't quite pull it off for me. Well he did of course, exclelently, but not in the same way as Melkor did. ("You're the only one!" )
I was and still am fascinated with the Barrow-Wights, and their tragic history, and their unspecified natures.. They are, for me, the personification of fear in the novel. Of course the Nazgûl do this too, but the Barrow-Wights are just this sort of legendary mist, which is very real nonetheless! Love those guys.


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## Gildor (Mar 25, 2004)

Saruman, because there's nothing quite so dark and treacherous as a good guy gone irrevocably bad.


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## Dáin Ironfoot I (Mar 25, 2004)

Gildor said:


> Saruman, because there's nothing quite so dark and treacherous as a good guy gone irrevocably bad.


I think along the same lines! The worst hate for a person you can develop is one who has betrayed your trust. Especially if this person is one you idolize, or recognize as your superior.


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## Elessar II (Mar 25, 2004)

> Well, the pole said, which one do you "love to hate" most not which was was most evil.



Ah, I only saw the _title_ of the thread.


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## Sarah (Mar 25, 2004)

ok, why is peter jackson in this poll???? HE sways the votes!!!! Recount!!!


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## numen (Mar 26, 2004)

*yup*

yeh PJ should be taken out.

I think its either Sauron (obviously) or the witch king.


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## meneldor (Mar 26, 2004)

Peeeeeter Jackson would slay all the baddies by gathering them to watch the Two Towers repeatedly. This is the new bad guy in Tolkiens unrealeased book titled " The War of the Marshmellow Man." Two Towers film very bad.


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## Dúnadan (Mar 26, 2004)

meneldor said:


> Peeeeeter Jackson would slay all the baddies by gathering them to watch the Two Towers repeatedly. This is the new bad guy in Tolkiens unrealeased book titled " The War of the Marshmellow Man." Two Towers film very bad.


Personally, I'd like to congratulate PJ for getting more people to read the books.

At any rate, I'm voting for the Witch-King. The Nazgûl are simply my favorite evil characters.


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## Turin (Mar 26, 2004)

Come to think of it, I never really hated any of the evil characters except Grima, he just got on my nerves. Most evil people are cool unless they are cowards.


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## Maeglin (Mar 26, 2004)

I agree, Grima was the worst, I don't know why, but I just hate him the most, so I chose "other".


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## Lomin... (Mar 26, 2004)

*The pollmaster speaketh to ye!*



> Sauron was a too clear-cut personification of evil; Melkor was cool, and the epitome of evil, but Sauron didn't quite pull it off for me.



RE: I didn't include Melkor-Morgoth, Eol, Glaurung, etc. Because the poll is about The Lord of the Rings, *NOT* all of Middle-Earth's histories, and mythologies and tales. Though I would've gladly tried if I could've had 2 score poll options! LOL​


> Come to think of it, I never really hated any of the evil characters except Grima,...


RE: DDDOOOO'HHHHHHHH!!!! I knew I forgot someone!!!​
I'm glad most of ye readeth the line of "love to hate" as I reckon that one of "most evil person" would have been made long ago.

Lomin...


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## Hobbit-GalRosie (Mar 27, 2004)

Very well then, firstly, I voted for Sauron, because he had this way of making you believe he was behind all the other villians even if he wasn't, like in the case of Shelob. You could never help wondering what passed through that foul mind, what treachery was contemplated there; feeling somehow that he must know your every thought and there could be no escape from him.

Secondly, however, Peter Jackson (who, I note, never appeared in the _books_, which is what this section is devoted to) is the _real_ villian because he RUINED the otherwise most perfectly evil, malicious being ever devised. He took all that wonderful subtlety of a devious mind at work and turned it into a 100,000,000 candle-power "Spotlight of Doom"!


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## Lantarion (Mar 27, 2004)

Ok, since 'Peter Jackson' now has as much as 25% of the overall votes I think it's time to let him go.  I'll put Gríma in his place, everybody who voted for PJ here might be able to re-vote, I'm not sure how that works actually..  If it turns out that you cannot re-vote, those people are welcome to PM me and say which choice they want their vote in.


Lomin... said:


> RE: I didn't include Melkor-Morgoth, Eol, Glaurung, etc. Because the poll is about The Lord of the Rings, NOT all of Middle-Earth's histories, and mythologies and tales.


Yes I know; I was just justifying or explaining my choice in the full context of the works.


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## Lomin... (Mar 28, 2004)

I also now realize I forgot "The Mouth of Sauron". I thought he was quite dispisable.

Note: I did vote for Jackson and I can't revote, but that's OK with me(the whole thing was a half joke anyway). I'm just informing you.


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## Aglarband (Mar 30, 2004)

I voted Sauron because, he was the most evilest thing.
The others had reasons for being evil, but none where as evil as long.

Saruman: He was pretty bad, but he did not see himself has evil, listen to his words to Gandalf in The Councile of Elrond, he thought his path was just.

Witch-King: A servant of Sauron forced to his will, he didn't have a choice.

Gollum: He was mad, due to the Ring.

Shelob: She was just hungry

etc. etc...


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## Helcaraxë (Apr 2, 2004)

I voted for Shelob because Sauron's waaaaaaaaay too awesome to hate. But then I remembered that Saruman cut down the trees. I never tolerate the murder of trees for any reason.


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## Saucy (Apr 5, 2004)

I voted other, Bill the pony, he was just plotting evil things the whole time....i mean after they let him go who knows what he went and did...there was a whole segment where he was unsupervised who's to say he wasnt an evil spy.


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## YayGollum (Apr 10, 2004)

Let me see here. I voted for the evil Saruman thinking more about the title of the thread. Mostly because he messed with other people's brains very creepily. The most evil of powers, in my opinion. 

Sauron did that, too, but it was never written about as directly as with the evil Saruman. Sure, the evil Saruman is just another version of Gollum, but then, so was poor Sauron. oh well. 

Who could hate poor Smeagol?  

We should be praising the balrog for getting rid of that evil torturer Gandalf for a while! 

Shelob was cool. Poor lady. 

Why would you choose the WitchKing, barrow wights, or the paths of the dead dudes? No personalities. 

Grima was one of the closest to Gollum. Achingly pitiful and tortured. Also, the real hero in the end.


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## Tar-Ancalime (Apr 11, 2004)

I chose gollum because...well I've always hated Gollum. But, Hobbit-gal-rosie, I agree. PJ killed that scene, it was much scarier in the book....


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## Hobbit-GalRosie (Apr 12, 2004)

Yay, someone agrees with me. I think the scene in the movie with Shelob was another terrible ruination of a marvelous idea. It was so delightfully, spine-tinglingly creepy when there was just someone _watching_ from the darkness of that tunnel, and eventually those glowing, baleful eyes. In the movie she just jumped out and used typical monster tactics in a typical fantasy battle (I must concede it's one of the better typical fantasy battles I've seen, but it could have been so much _more_, that whole scene was fraught with possibilty). She was also just a giant tarantula, without any appearance of those definitive eyes, or horns for that matter. I'll always be curious how other people picture her horns, but I shall probably never know. It all combined to make her so much less unique.


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## Inderjit S (Apr 12, 2004)

*Idiotic Ramblings of Somebody With too Much Time on His Hands*

Sauron was NOT evil he was misunderstood. Was it his fault he was the product of a bellicose cobbler and a mother with a fetish for all-powerful jewellery and picked on by the children in his class because of his hefty frame and big nose and buck teeth? 

As Sauron's biographer, Patrilokos of Nowhere In Particular notes in his expose _The Real Sauron[/I; 




Sauron's stunted childhood was further worsened by his entrance into H.O.G warts Academy for Wizardry and Drag-Queens (an academy set up by a bunch of talking pigs with warts problems in S.A 120)....he was ostracized because of his far from platonic relationship with the eligible draq queen Madame Pluiscsyk, who was anything but beautiful, she exuded dog faeces and had most people wouldn't touch her with a 50 foot barepole... but not Sauron, Sauron loved her, both because of her reputation as the "queen of drag queens" and her innate hatred of nude Twister, which both felt to be barbarous and superfluous....unfortunately most of the students and teachers of H.O.G warts were great adherents to nude twister and pigeon racing

Click to expand...


As Akhilleus of The Weak Heel tells us in his book Sauron, Pigeon Racing and Tupac Shakur 




Sauron also had a feud with the "insidious little bespectacled twerp Harry Potter after making a pass at his ginger lackey/lover Ronald Weasley (NOTE: Harry Potter fiercely denies Ronald being the former 'our relationship was simple, me say and he obey, he tells me in garbled idiot-talk)"

Click to expand...

 Akhilleus of The Weak Heel; Sauron, Pigeon Racing and Tupac Shakur 

Sauron majored with a degree in Barometer Studies, whilst his now infamous girl/boy friend Madame Pluiscsyk passing her draqueen exams, which could lead to a prosperous career as an hemorrhoids cream consultant. Pluiscsyk decided to reject this prosperous career, choosing instead to start joint business venture with her husband that specialised in supplying second urinal cakes salesmen with branded haemorrhoid creams, the business prospered, soon Sauron and his wife were he leading branded haemorrhoid cream suppliers to second hand urinal cakes salesmen in the district, the fact that they were the ONLY branded haemorrhoid cream suppliers to second hand urinal cake salesmen in the district does not detract from this achievement in anyway, except for everyway possible. But their lives were about to take a turn for the worse when Madame Pluiscsyk found Sauron in a rather compromising position with her best friend and fellow draq queen Elrond of Imladris. Chaos ensued. As Paris Alexandros of Troy tells us in his expose, Women Who Slept With Sauron 




Madame Pluiscsyk was angered at this unfaithful act of her best friend and her second hand urinal cake salesmen husband. She divorced Sauron, swindled him for all he had, which was not much, since he had spent most of the money generated from his second hand urinal cake business on sleazy, trashy novels. She called herself 'Gandalf The Grey' under the guise of being some kind of hairy fortune teller everyone mistook for a wizard (a 'wizard' was a perverse zookeeper). She soon developed paranoid schizophrenia and also went under the guise of Saruman The White. She went around with two suspect "wizards" (i.e. perverse zoo keepers) wearing a dirty, unwashed, 'multicoloured' robe, and preaching sedulously about the sanctity of constipation and Martin Luther and the reformation of the egotistical Catholic church....she seduced the king of Rohan, a small and insignificant despotic kingdom which everybody with any sense of smell or sight avoided at all costs and launched into a sultry affair with King Ais son of Telamon of the Ugly Face....meanwhile the bashful temptress's alter ego Gandalf The White seduced the young Hobbit Frodo Baggins...

Click to expand...

 Paris Alexandros of Troy; Women Who Slept With Sauron

Sauron, meanwhile took up with a group of acrobatic gypsies and talking badgers, and managed to shack himself up with gypsy girl Helen of Troy, who was at the time engaged to the malicious young, sexy red-head Menelaos, and due to Helen's father's discontent at this proposed marriage the two ran off to the tranquil rat-kingdom of Moredoors. Sauron soon catapulted to fame amongst the severely mentally retarded populace of that pathetic little kingdom, and soon subjugated it’s subjects and became king of Mordor and overlord of her fiefs. He also dropped the 'e' and one of the 'o' from the name 'Mordor' due to an incessant phobia of vowel sounds and double 'o's and began the miltarisation of this pathetic little hovel. Pretty soon, Mordor's industry decreased tenfold and pre-marital pregnancies increased 20 fold as Sauron promoted the much maligned axiom of "free love and expensive contraceptives" and the bay-blooming Ork/Ferret population soon blossomed beautifully out of control. Sauron was not daunted. To quell the unrests of overpopulation, he introduced libel laws, provided free health-care for organ-grinders, adopted Keynesian economic measures and read 'The Communist Manifesto' by one Karl Marx. After putting down a rebellion by the ferret population who wanted to gain political autonomy and egalitarianism as opposed to Sauron's despotism he decided to invade more realms on the pretext of spreading his axiom on 'free love' and 'ferret burning'. He soon established his hegemony over Middle-Earth crippling realms with his fast, incompetent attacks (the fact that the kings of the other realms were too senile and stupid to know their own names, and the subjects to haggard to do anything but be haggard, in no way takes anything away from Sauron's military achievements against armies of haggard men armed to the teeth with peanut crackers and devastating Kleenex grenades. Sauron had come close to achieving his aim of a homogenous message on free love and expensive contraceptives when he faced opposition from one Gil-Galad together with his cronies, Elendil, Elrond (former lover of Sauron) and IsilDUH! It is said that this Gil-Galad (Elven for 'idiot head') was so outwardly hideous that anyone who suffered the unfortunate fate of having to lay their eyes on him either joined some protestant evangelical group or became celibate. This acted as a paradox to Sauron's adage on free love and he made war on Gil-Galad and his cronies or "the uglies" as they were widely known as. "The uglies" soon gained support from a nomadic group of Jehovah Witness's who were firm adherent to casuistry and water-births, and they were soon joined by partisan ferrets and disgruntled piano key repairmen as well as fans of the fantasy series 'Charmed'. This incompetent alliance was more then a match for the intrinsically inept Sauronian forces. They were soon driven back and many soldiers defected under the rumour that any prisoners of war were forced to watch back to back episodes of 'Charmed'. Sauron was defeated at the 'Battle of Gettysburg' in which his force was routed by the forces of Gil-Galad and his cronies. He was humbled, but soon exonerated by the other side, who admired his wife, Helen of Troy, whose face was said to 'launch a thousand pre-meditated suicides' and sticking a poster of her on every street corner meant that the population boom was severely reduced, as celibacy again rose. Sauron was eventually exiled for his bellicose attitude to the ferret population, who mercilessly taunted him about his hefty frame, buck teeth and about the masculine features of his wife "Helen of Troy look like a boy" they chortled many, many times. Sauron went to live in the far from salient kingdom of Dol Guldur in 'Mirkwood' where he had to share his realm with the indigenous population of elven-mechanics and pornography suppliers under the pornography peddler king, Thranduil and his son Legoass. He played upon the anti-water birth sentiments of the elven mechanics and pornography suppliers. Eventually, after winning them over he launched an attack on Gil-Galad. Disguised as the witches from 'Charmed' him, Thranduil and Legoass attempted to seduce the immoral king with bayonets. The guards did not notice the 3-meter bayonets and they were hiding under their 'We hate Gil-Galad', 'Say no to waterbirths' t-shirts and let them in. They proceeded to prod Gil-Galad with their bayonets, but due to the hefty frame of Mr. Galad, due to his new found fetish for bacon fat, they were unable to slay him. But luck was on their side. Upon the realisation that the witches from Charmed were in fact homicidal men (and ugly ones at that) he committed suicide, throwing himself backwards on some salad forks. His death was mourned but Sauron again became king of the realm, and he proceeded to ban water-births, re-ignite the dieing second hand urinal and barometer trade and promote the age old adage of free love and inner beauty._


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## ltas (Apr 12, 2004)

(You forgot to mention Sauron's courage and determination when he withdrew his support to the Culture Exchange between Elven Dwellings Project, thereby preventing the widespread popularity of the Art Nouveau design in home interiors, which would have otherwise lead to dreadful results that can be best witnessed in the ''House'' of Elrond.)


The voting part:
Elrond. Should have pushed Isildur in when he had the chance.


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## Inderjit S (Apr 12, 2004)

Hm..Elrond was obviously into Boromir. Would YOU push the man of your dreams into a volcano just to destroy some magic trinket? No. Who could you have 'cuddlefests' with now? Glorfindel? Erestor? Celebrian? Celeborn...


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## Saermegil (Apr 12, 2004)

_I voted other, Bill the pony, he was just plotting evil things the whole time....i mean after they let him go who knows what he went and did...there was a whole segment where he was unsupervised who's to say he wasnt an evil spy. _ 

What I want to know is how he got through Caradhras. He was just evil. 
Evil Bill. Kill Bill.


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## faila (Apr 13, 2004)

saurumon a traitor. (who actually becomes a traitor during the book) Traitors are the worst people


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## Inderjit S (Apr 14, 2004)

I think being a 'tratiror' is an intrinsic part of beig a 'baddie'. Wormtounge, the dead-men, Gollum, Sauron and the Balrog are all traitors in one way or another.


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## Fechin (Apr 16, 2004)

Saruman why?
1.He was good then turned bad.
2.He chopped thousands of poor little trees. 

Evil Evil Evil Kenevil


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## Anárion (Apr 17, 2004)

Melian_the_Maya said:


> I chose Shelob cause I don't like spiders.
> 
> Well, the pole said, which one do you "love to hate" most not which was was most evil. I dislike Shelob even more than Sauron, because Sauron at least is mighty, is strong, has a pride aura about him. Shelob on the other hand has all its thoughtses on food, yesss precioussss.



How can you not like Shelob!?!?  She is the _true_ hero of the book. If not for her....uh...Middle Earth would have been...uh...well, without her Ungoliant would have been depressed and wouldnt have eaten the trees of light and then the Elves would kill Melkor when he was trying to eat it himself and Sauron would have made the ring earlier when Hobbits werent around and would have taken over the world. Yeah. Thats it.

Anyway, I voted for Saurman because hes just pretty much ugly. White is such a plain color. Oh yes, and the fact that he tryed to destroy all of Rohan-kind, and he scourged the Shire, but no one really cares about that, they care about SHELOB!


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## Aglarband (Apr 18, 2004)

Fechin said:


> Saruman why?
> 1.He was good then turned bad.
> 2.He chopped thousands of poor little trees.
> 
> Evil Evil Evil Kenevil



So was Sauron... and Morgoth... and well, alot of Tolkiens evil characters.


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## Inderjit S (Apr 18, 2004)

As Elrond states at the council, no body is ever born evil.


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 18, 2004)

Not even orks, trolls, and the like?


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## Inderjit S (Apr 18, 2004)

*Now you've done it.eth.*

Your contradiction is fallacious for reasons I cannot disclose, or if you do I will face grave repercussions, like say, another poor satirical post.

That's a toughie-do Orks etc really have the "free will" that other races have? I suppose I can counter this by saying Orks aren't born at all but are a product of the misogynist Elven shell-fish collectors with a fetish for deep fat fried chicken, canto X of Dante’s Divine Comedy written in Sanskrit on marble tablets in Lithuanian villages whose names begin with R and end with T. 

Can something be born evil? Something can be born to do evil deeds, but can it be born intrinsically evil? Did baby Orks get breast fed? Did they tear up everything and poke each other's eyes out? Did they play some kind of sick, maniacal version of peek-a-boo? Did they watch back to back episodes of "Teletubbies Go Erotic'? 

And what is evil? If you ask an Ork to define 'evil' what would he/she define 'evil' as? Would his definition be homogenous with say, a Hobbit, or would a Hobbit's definition be homogenous with say a Númenórean's? No, evil is by no mean ubiquitous. Evil is fundamentally heterogeneous. No one can have the same opinion on what "evil" is since "evil" by definition is relative for each person. 

What then, is "evil" according to the Orks. Is "evil" doing something good? No? Why? Because in our eyes it is a paradox, you an evil act cannot be labelled as being 'good' unless the evil act (unintentionally) leads to a greater good. Such instances occur time and time again in Middle-Earth. But what may seem oxymoronic to is the norm for the Orks. The Orks are the product of their society. Their society happens to be rather more psychotic then the other staple societies of Middle-Earth. Naturally they follow the conventional "rules" of their society, just like the Hobbit follow their own conventions. The Orkish conventions happen to include things which repulse the "pious" race of Middle-Earth. But are the Orks evil if they follow the norm of not only their society but also of their "race". If the Orks are intrinsically "evil" as a race then is a perfidious Ork (by "our" standards) 'evil' or is he the 'normal' by-product of his race, just like the norm amongst Hobbits is to be fat and stupid with a hidden seed of watermelon (courage?) sowed somewhere in their expansive stomach. 

So the Orks are resigned to be "evil" because that is their "fate" in Middle-Earth. To be a paradigm of all that is bad and ugly, though one could say the same thing about Celeborn. And what of the 'good-guys' in middle-earth-are they not a product of their "fate" in Middle-Earth or a product of the music? What would the world be like if there was no Manwë Súlimo, Ulmo or Fingolfin? Or Elendil, Aragorn or Frodo Baggins? Were they chosen to be "good" by god? Was it their fate to follow their predestined plan in Middle-Earth? If so then how can they be any different from the Orks who were 'programmed' to be "evil"? Aren't they both such mechanisms of Eru's grand plan? Can one help if their actions lead to a certain event? Or if they are intrinsically programmed to do this or that? Melian's attempts to battle the fate of her husband and her foster son's family failed. Why? Because she couldn't battle against "fate or rather the manifestation of fate, the infallible Eru. Aren't they just the product of the same thing, except they are polarized because of the difference of their "role" in the general scheme of things? Is it glib to simply say, Orks are bad and let's say the Hobbits are good? No, that would be too simple. Unless you are talking about one individual such a statement would always be fallacious. Pluralized, or talking about the race as a whole you cannot prove it to be true. There were evil Hobbits, evil Men and even evil Elves and Ainur. Wait a minute-aren't these people products of the "music" and of “divine providence” and so are their actions bereft of 'free will' because it was their 'role' to do such and such a thing. But you could argue that they could have done something completely different. But wouldn't this have changed the whole history of Arda? Where would Arda be without the treachery of Morgoth or the Balrogs, or Sauron and Ar-Pharazôn’s perfidy? 

And were Orks wholly "evil". Superficially one can conclude that yes they were wholly evil, but superficially one can conclude that Don Quixote was crazy and Akhilleus arrogant. Are judgements based on superficial analysis useless? Not entirely, of course, Quixote was crazy, Akhilleus was arrogant (or should that read embittered with Agamemnon?) and Orks "evil". But delve deeper into their characters and you can unearth some interesting facts. For example, the Orks have a sense of comradeship and loyalty. Maybe they even care for each other. The great goblin's death sure angered his Orks. Aragorn tells us that Orks usually avenge their fallen captains. The Moria Orks state to the Uruk-Hai and Mordorians that they came for revenge All that way! And whilst the sun was shining and elven bows singing! Not only admirable, but also very brave of them. Upon finding Frodo's body Snaga, or one of his lackeys or maybe it was Shagrat, when talking about his other companions (they think it may be an Elf) supposed abandonment of Frodo as being a "regular Elvish trick". So are they able to recognise treacherous actions such as the abandonment of your comrade? And are they indoctrinated against Elves and Men and are they told lies about the base deeds of Elves and Men? So are they able to differentiate between "good and bad" acts, in their own sphere of morals? Then again 'Quendi and Eldar' states that no captured Ork ever showed any moral scruples. 

If Orks are a product of their 'role' in Middle-Earth as decreed by the infallible Eru, then are they really evil, since all of Eru's actions are a direct result of what he thinks will lead to the "greater good" of Arda (can things such as Melkor's discord be classified under the "it was fate" argument?) and so are the Orks in fact carrying out (albeit unwittingly) Eru's grand plan for the improvement of Arda and the re0vamping of the postal system? Is Brad Pitt H-O-T? Are you asleep yet? If so, why not? Am I the most pedantic casuist ever? Or is my fastidious casuistry a product of my upbringing....  am I spewing forth nonsense because I know nobody will ever get this far whilst reading by dreary post? Maybe a nice sentence in Lemon Chiffon will catch everyones attention or maybe a different font or small fontwill.


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