# Elfhelm & Dernhelm



## Alcuin (Aug 27, 2020)

Has it occurred to anyone else that Elfhelm and his éored were aware of Éowyn’s deception in riding with the Rohirrim to Minas Tirith? No one spoke to Merry, and if they heard him speak, they pretended not to notice. It might be that this was the extent to which the rest of the éored was informed of what was happening, but I think there can be little doubt that Elfhelm was privy to Éowyn’s Dernhelm disguise: it can hardly be expected that he would not know, particularly after he stumbled over Merry in the dark in Drúadan Forest and then spoke to him. Nor does Éomer punish Elfhelm! He leaves Elfhelm in command of the Rohirrim at Minas Tirith when Aragorn leads the Captains to the Morannon.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Aug 27, 2020)

JRRT didn't mention "only Elfhelm" knew the true identity, in addition, that paragraph was from Merry's angle, so how many personnel he will contact and sense their refusal of any talk is, after all, I think there wouldn't be too many will have contact with him, for he might try his best to prevent showing up in public place due to his his illegal action. Yeah, JRRT has mentioned Merry was always afraid that he get caught.

By the way, Elfhelm's supposed to appoint Merry into the position in Elfhelm command department or some other department private enough, so how many personnel would meet Merry is obviously not too many, at least those whose duties are out of Elfhelm command department won't see Merry unless they enter it. Or unless Elfhelm had better prepare a excuse good enough to explain to all other units that why someone not reached the "height request" get conscripted into his personnel list.

At last, even if there're multiple personnel heard the conversation when Elfhelm stumbled over Merry, I think they don't have the mood to notice it, after all they're about to have a possibly last march of their life.


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## Deleted member 12094 (Aug 27, 2020)

Indeed, Elfhelm seemed to know more than he would show:

_There seemed to be some understanding between Dernhelm and Elfhelm, the Marshal who commanded the éored in which they were riding. He and all his men ignored Merry and pretended not to hear if he spoke._​
Elfhelm’s motives are not further explained and so we cannot do more than some guessing.

My impression is that Elfhelm chose to remain discrete in this matter. Had he reported what he knew to the king, he would have been sure of suffering Éowyn’s lifelong disapproval. On the other hand, the king could hardly reproach him not to have been aware of the true situation. So, by just ignoring them, he remained on the somewhat safer side…

As said: just a personal guess.


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## Halasían (Aug 27, 2020)

I agree with Merroe. From my 1st reading I took it that Elfhelm and likely a select few riders knew that Éowyn was riding with them, and by extension Merry as well. Just seemed logical. in my mind, I figured Elfhelm weighed up the consequences of both saying something to either Theoden or Éomer, or saying nothing and covering for them until such time the battle was over. Since there was a general feeling that they were on a one-way march, the latter seemed the right path to take.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 28, 2020)

I'm reminded here of the scene where Theoden is preparing to leave Edoras for the west, and asking who will stay behind, to lead the people to Dunharrow.

_'Which of you will stay?'

No man spoke.

'Is there none whom you would name? In whom do my people trust?'

'In the house of Eorl,' answered Hama.

'But Eomer I cannot spare, nor would he stay,' said the king; and he is the last of that House.'

'I said not Eomer,' answered Hama. And he is not the last. There is Eowyn, daughter of Eomund, his sister. She is fearless and high-hearted. All love her. Let her be as lord to the Eorlingas, while we are gone.'_


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## Olorgando (Aug 28, 2020)

JRRT mentions prophesies by seers every once in a while.

Now just picture a seer giving the Rohirrim this:

"You will be faced by a most fearsome foe, the returned Witch-king of Angmar.
It will be the Lady Éowyn and the holbytla Master Holdwine who will do him in."


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## Ealdwyn (Aug 28, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I'm reminded here of the scene where Theoden is preparing to leave Edoras for the west, and asking who will stay behind, to lead the people to Dunharrow.
> 
> _'Which of you will stay?'
> 
> ...



Theoden's dismissal of Eowyn there. There were a few things that PJ improved on in the movies, and that was one of them.

Meanwhile, Eowyn:


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## Olorgando (Aug 28, 2020)

Ealdwyn said:


> Théoden's dismissal of Eowyn there. There were a few things that PJ improved on in the movies, and that was one of them.


I must say I can't quite follow you here. In the film, PJ shows Éowyn being horrified at that (ridiculously overdone) chain mace of the Witch-king - as well we might be. JRRT's Éowyn the shield-maiden would not have reacted like this. But PJ is just totally out of it when it comes to depicting anything about JRRT's admiration (with definite criticism at its excesses) of what he called the Northern Theory of Courage. An egregious point in case is PJ's showing of the Meeting of Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli with Éomer's riders. None of this wimpy "peace, brother" holding up of his hands, Aragorn stands still and impassive even when Éomer's spear is just a foot from his chest. Something that Aragorn knew the Riders would take note of positively, as he knew it from serving Thengel, Théoden's father. PJ's almost "angst-ridden" Aragorn (and others) has been the source one of my major "wolverine" reactions to his fanfic.


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## Ealdwyn (Aug 28, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> I must say I can't quite follow you here. In the film, PJ shows Éowyn being horrified at that (ridiculously overdone) chain mace of the Witch-king - as well we might be. JRRT's Éowyn the shield-maiden would not have reacted like this. But PJ is just totally out of it when it comes to depicting anything about JRRT's admiration (with definite criticism at its excesses) of what he called the Northern Theory of Courage. An egregious point in case is PJ's showing of the Meeting of Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli with Éomer's riders. None of this wimpy "peace, brother" holding up of his hands, Aragorn stands still and impassive even when Éomer's spear is just a foot from his chest. Something that Aragorn knew the Riders would take note of positively, as he knew it from serving Thengel, Théoden's father. PJ's almost "angst-ridden" Aragorn (and others) has been the source one of my major "wolverine" reactions to his fanfic.


I was referring to the passage quoted by SeS: JRRT's Theoden does not consider Eowyn a candidate for leader of the Eorlingas. Eomer is the only one that he even considers for the role, until it is spelled out to him by Hama. PJ at least permits his Theoden to acknowledge Eowyn's competence.


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## Olorgando (Aug 28, 2020)

Ealdwyn said:


> I was referring to the passage quoted by SeS: JRRT's Theoden does not consider Eowyn a candidate for leader of the Eorlingas. Eomer is the only one that he even considers for the role, until it is spelled out to him by Hama. PJ at least permits his Theoden to acknowledge Eowyn's competence.


Ah, OK, I'll take your word on PJ's treatment of the scene.
But that Théoden only considered Éomer for the role of leader of the Eorlingas staying behind is not quite right. The only one *of the House of Eorl*, yes, but he clearly did not consider this as a possibility. As S-eS quotes "no *man* spoke", so clearly men of nobility - for example Elfhelm! - weren't volunteering (but assuming they were meant). How many of them shared the sentiment of *Háma* is again quite another question. As they were warriors and leader of warriors, they might well have thought themselves to be (nearly) as indispensable as Éomer in the battle they were to face. And maybe with their self-image of warriors, they would not have been such a good choice for leadership to a (likely dubious) place of hiding.


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## Ealdwyn (Aug 28, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> Ah, OK, I'll take your word on PJ's treatment of the scene.
> But that Théoden only considered Éomer for the role of leader of the Eorlingas staying behind is not quite right. The only one *of the House of Eorl*, yes, but he clearly did not consider this as a possibility. As S-eS quotes "no *man* spoke", so clearly men of nobility - for example Elfhelm! - weren't volunteering (but assuming they were meant). How many of them shared the sentiment of *Háma* is again quite another question. As they were warriors and leader of warriors, they might well have thought themselves to be (nearly) as indispensable as Éomer in the battle they were to face. And maybe with their self-image of warriors, they would not have been such a good choice for leadership to a (likely dubious) place of hiding.


I agree that the other nobles/warriors wouldn't be rushing to volunteer, as they would feel their role was to ride in to battle. 

But it's what JRRT is trying to tell us here about the Theoden/Eowyn relationship. We only know what we're told in the text: Theoden asks who the people trust, he is told the House of Eorl, and that prompts him to consider possible candidates of that line. If the only criterion is being of the House of Eorl then Eowyn is equally qualified, but it doesn't cross his mind that she is capable of leading her people (until he is prompted), even when it's clear to him that Eomer cannot remain behind. This is how Theoden views Eowyn. He disregards (or doesn't see) her qualities - that she is 'fearless and high-hearted' and has the loyalty of her people. However, her people (as demonstrated by Hama) see her clearly and hold her in high esteem.

That short exchange explains much about Eowyn and her motivations in LotR - a strong and courageous woman who has gone through life being overlooked and disregarded, and who is not even thought capable of leading the old and vulnerable to a place of hiding.


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## Olorgando (Aug 28, 2020)

No question. But don't confuse (not that I assume that you're doing, but I don't know ...) JRRT with Théoden.
Never mind Galadriel and Celeborn (*she* has the friggin' Great Elven Ring, not Celeborn!)
There's "Beren And Lúthien" from 2017. Totally misnamed. "Lúthien and some guy she was inexplicably enamored of" would be a better title. OK, there's no detailed description of the (limited) heroics Barahir, his son Beren and the other eleven "wreaked" on Morgoth's forces. Nor on the harrowing traverse by Beren of the Taur-na-Fuin infested by offspring of Ungoliant (and thus perhaps relatives of TA Shelob).

But then?

Lúthien rescues Beren from First Age Minas Tirith (by then known as Tol-in-Gaurhoth - with help from Huan); she sends Carcharoth, and then Morgoth and his entire retinue beddy-bye (and never mind the early phase when she and Huan dealt with that cat Tevildo). She melted even Mandos. Beren is some hero - ain't popping up in Marvel/DC film garbage anytime soon ...


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## Alcuin (Aug 28, 2020)

I agree with Merroe and Halasían: Elfhelm was stuck between the proverbial rock and hard place. If he said nothing about Éowyn, he might be in trouble, or he might not; but if he said anything, he’d be in for enmity with Éowyn, who was loved and admired by the Rohirrim. (Besides that, it is likely that by this point, all of the lords of the Rohirrim were related to one another, and Éowyn was probably his kinswoman as well.) Thank you both for that insight.

The rest of this post is off-topic, but since it’s come up…

Tolkien is sometimes accused of misogyny, that there are no “strong women” in his stories. Well, I strongly disagree: There is a pattern in Tolkien’s tales of women more powerful or as powerful as the men that accompany them. 
Manwë might have been greater in power than Varda, but it is Varda, Elbereth, who is reverenced (though not worshipped!) by the Elves and on whom the Elves and Edain/Dúnedain of Middle-earth call for help. 
Melian is greater than Elu Thingol. She is far more powerful, and by far the wiser, too. Thingol entangles himself and his kingdom in the Oath of Fëanor by seeking to kill Beren without breaking his promise to Lúthien. Melian sees this immediately and warns him without success. 
Lúthien is greater than Beren. Now Beren is a great person, among the greatest of Men ever to walk in Middle-earth, but Lúthien is by far the wiser and more powerful. 
Idril is wiser than Tuor. And of course, far older. 
Galadriel is wiser and more powerful than Celeborn. (Elthir, where are you?)
Arwen is older and wiser than Aragorn, who himself is no slouch.
On top of these examples, I also remember Haleth of the Second House: so great a leader was she that the whole tribe became name known as the House of Haleth. Elwing Half-elven, leader of the refugees, both Elves and Men, of Beleriand along with her husband, Eärendil Half-elven: the Silmaril of her grandparents, Beren and Lúthien, was in her keeping, and when she was accosted at the last by the Sons of Fëanor, she cast herself and the Silmaril into the Great Sea, and so by the power of Ulmo was brought to Eärendil so that his embassy might be accomplished. What of the unhappy Erendis, queen to Tar-Aldarion, who demanded but did not receive the full love of her husband? Tar-Telperiën, I believe, might have been the wisest ruler of Númenor, who appointed her nephew Minastir as co-regent and successor so that he could build the great armament that succored Gil-galad in the War of the Elves and Sauron. What of Morwen wife of Húrin, who searched unceasingly for her lost children, Turin and Niënor? 

But it seems to me the repeating pattern is 
*Melian:Thingol :: Lúthien:Beren :: Arwen:Aragorn*​Éowyn is but the latest of these powerful women, as great as her brother Éomer and even more distinguished.


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## Aldarion (Aug 28, 2020)

Alcuin said:


> Has it occurred to anyone else that Elfhelm and his éored were aware of Éowyn’s deception in riding with the Rohirrim to Minas Tirith? No one spoke to Merry, and if they heard him speak, they pretended not to notice. It might be that this was the extent to which the rest of the éored was informed of what was happening, but I think there can be little doubt that Elfhelm was privy to Éowyn’s Dernhelm disguise: it can hardly be expected that he would not know, particularly after he stumbled over Merry in the dark in Drúadan Forest and then spoke to him. Nor does Éomer punish Elfhelm! He leaves Elfhelm in command of the Rohirrim at Minas Tirith when Aragorn leads the Captains to the Morannon.



I always assumed that Elfhelm knew that "Dernhelm" is Eowyn. Merry even notices that there is "some sort" of agreement between the two (as I just noticed was already pointed out).



Ealdwyn said:


> Theoden's dismissal of Eowyn there. There were a few things that PJ improved on in the movies, and that was one of them.
> 
> Meanwhile, Eowyn:
> View attachment 7950



I always assumed that Theoden didn't dismiss her, but rather *outright forgot *about her existence. To repeat: he forgot _he had a niece_ in the first place.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 28, 2020)

I had intended to comment on the passage I quoted, but was falling asleep, so let it stand alone. Sorry. Some observations:

Rohan is patriarchal, as is Gondor, but there's a difference: as T.A.Shippey pointed out, Tolkien admired certain qualities of "primitive" cultures like the Anglo-Saxons. One of these was a more relaxed attitude toward hierarchy and loyalty. The individual was allowed -- or, in an honor culture, expected -- to have an autonomy of thought and action that would be severely restricted in a more "advanced" society, such as a modern army.

Or Gondor. I mentioned the "contrasted parallel" of the different travel prohibitons issued by Theoden and Denethor, in another thread, and Eomer and Faramir's contrasting reactions to them. Closer to the subject here is Hama's interactions with Gandalf's party, which is taken directly from the coastwatcher's with Beowulf. We know from the previous scene with the gate guards that any weapon, "be it only a staff", must be left outside the doors. Yet Hama, the Doorward, disobeys this order, and allows Gandalf to retain his staff, something that would likely have severe consequences for a member of the Tower Guard in Minas Tirith, where leaving your post might bring a death sentence.

Why does he do this? He tells us in almost the exact words of the coastwatcher:

_'The staff in the hand of a wizard may be more than a prop for age,' said Hama. He looked hard at the ash-staff on which Gandalf leaned. 'Yet in doubt a man of worth will trust to his own wisdom. I believe you are friends and folk worthyof honour, who have no evil purpose. You may go in.'_

It's hard to imagine such words coming from a member of the Tower Guard.

And the same attitude is exhibited in the passage I quoted earlier: I don't know whether a Doorward would number among the "lords and chiefs" gathered around the king; I tend to doubt it, but whatever the case, Hama voices his opinion, and all appear to agree. The impression is that members of this culture are free to express their opinions, even to the king.

That that opinion is new or strange-sounding may be true; that Theoden "forgot" his niece is not how I would put it, but rather that it was a break with tradition, something he had simply not thought of. And here again we can see a contrast with Gondor, and imagine what the installation of a queen, or even female steward, however temporary, might entail: conferences among counselors, searches for precedents, possible usurpation, as in Numenor, or even civil war. Yet Theoden says merely "Let it be so".

This leads me back to the topic at hand. The emphasis on individual autonomy would, I believe, cause Elfhelm and the others to respect Eowyn's decision to ride with the host, whatever the "duties" laid upon her.


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## Ealdwyn (Aug 28, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> No question. But don't confuse (not that I assume that you're doing, but I don't know ...) JRRT with Théoden.


No, I'm not confusing them. I just cited that as an example of how JRRT showed the relationship between Theoden and Eowyn, and the motivation for Eowyn's actions.


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## Alcuin (Aug 28, 2020)

Háma was not merely Théoden’s doorwarden, he was also captain of Théoden’s guard until his death at Helm’s Gate. After Háma’s demise, Déorwine might have become captain, since Tolkien describes him as “chief” of Théoden’s knights, who was killed in the Battle of the Pelennor Fields before Théoden was wounded. We know there was a new captain of the guard because he announced the arrival of Hirgon, the errand-rider of Gondor, at Dunharrow. (Sorry for the pedantry: just finished re-reading “The Pyre of Denethor” a few hours ago, my umpteenth re-reading of _The Lord of the Rings_.)

Háma’s personal initiative in permitting Gandalf to retain his wizard’s staff is contrasted to the pugnacious refusal by the porter of the door to Rath Dínen to permit Beregond to follow Denethor and Faramir to the royal tombs of Minas Tirith. 

As for the motivation behind Éowyn’s riding with the Rohirrim to battle at Minas Tirith, that is more complex, but I think it is made clear. First there is the emotional dialogue at Dunharrow between Aragorn and Éowyn, who has fallen in love with him. She asks to join the Dúnedain of Arnor on their expedition through the Paths of the Dead. When Aragorn replies that it is her duty to remain to rule over the people of Rohan in Théoden’s absence, she virtually explodes, “Too often have I heard of duty! But am I not of the House of Eorl, a shieldmaiden and not a dry-nurse?” The conversation goes downhill from there: Éowyn is _ambitious_, skilled, strong, intelligent, and quite capable of holding her own against any but the best and strongest of opponents. (Including the Witch-king, but he had other problems before he could dispatch her.) “I can ride and wield blade, and I do not fear either pain or death,” she declares, and when asked what she fears, she replies, “A cage. To stay behind bars until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.” When Aragorn finally says no again to her riding with the Dúnedain, she not-too-indirectly declares her love for him and retires weeping for the night. 

Later in the “Houses of Healing” (I’m reading that again now), Aragorn gently confronts Éomer with Éowyn’s unrequited love for him, and Éomer, not blaming his friend Aragorn, puzzles over her actions that have nearly cost her her life. Gandalf replies,
​“My friend,” said Gandalf, “you had horses, and deeds of arms, and the free fields; but she, born in the body of a maid, had a spirit and courage at least the match of yours. Yet she was doomed to wait upon an old man, whom she loved as a father, and watch him falling into a mean dishonored dotage; and her part seemed to her more ignoble than that of the staff he leaned on.​​“Think you that Wormtongue had poison only for Théoden’s ears? _Dotard! What is the house of Eorl but a thatched barn where brigands drink in the reek, and their brats roll on the floor among their dogs?_ Have you not heard those words before? Saruman spoke them, the teacher of Wormtongue. Though I do not doubt that Wormtongue at home wrapped their meaning in terms more cunning. My lord, if your sister’s love for you, and her will still bent to her duty, had not restrained her lips; you might have heard even such things as these escape them. But who knows what she spoke to the darkness, alone, in the bitter watches of the night, when all her life seemed shrinking, and the walls of her bower closing in about her, a hutch to trammel some wild thing in?”​​Then Éomer was silent, and looked on his sister, as if pondering anew all the days of their past life together.​​When I was younger, and for most of my life, my favorite passage in the tale was the confrontation between Éowyn and the Witch-king: “Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!” Now that I am older, my favorite scene is Faramir visiting Éowyn the gardens of the Houses of Healing, where he declares his love for her, and Éowyn sets aside her pride and ambition to return his love for a life of joy, happiness, contentment, and fulfillment. Neither Saruman nor Denethor, whom most would account “greater” persons, could set aside their pride and ambition, but Éowyn proves herself greater, wiser, and of stronger personality that either of them. Like them, she is given the choice to renounce her previous path for another, but unlike them, she has the courage, strength, and fortitude to do it. Her proclamation,
​I stand in Minas Anor, the Tower of the Sun; and behold the Shadow has departed! I will be a shieldmaiden no longer, nor vie with the great Riders, nor take joy only in the songs of slaying. I will be a healer, and love all things that grow and are not barren.​​is not only a complete change in her life’s path, not only a prelude to her accepting Faramir’s love, affection, and admiration (which is real and not feigned! Faramir was himself an accomplished warrior), but her claim of her Númenórean heritage: her mother’s mother was Morwen of Lossarnach, a woman of high Númenórean blood whose family hailed from Belfalas, Théoden’s mother who probably strongly influenced the early years of her life in Meduseld. For Éowyn is neither addressing nor looking at Faramir when she says this: she is looking into the West, addressing the Valar.

Sam changes more than any other character in _The Lord of the Rings_, progressing from gardener and batman (in the British military sense) to Frodo’s heir and the founder of the Gardeners of The Hill. But Éowyn’s character arc is next in its expanse and change: She is one of my favourite characters in _The Lord of the Rings_.


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## Halasían (Aug 29, 2020)

Ealdwyn said:


> Theoden's dismissal of Eowyn there. There were a few things that PJ improved on in the movies, and that was one of them.



It's been awhile since I watched the PJ fanfic, but wasn't Eomer banashed from Rohan in that version?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 30, 2020)

My memories are even dimmer, but I do recall a head-scratching moment in the theater, when on leaving the Three Hunters, he calls out to his men "We ride North!", and thinking "Where the heck are they going?".


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## Hisoka Morrow (Aug 30, 2020)

This text was removed by mods due to inappropriate content
*Removed by Mod: Inappropriate content*

JRRT has mentioned for too many times that males's priority as successors have been always more than females in too many cases. Even though JRRT didn't mention he excluded matrilineal society from his work, well...his cases of showing males's priority to be political or military leaders careers were obvious.

In addition, in comparison with military, politics seem much fitter to females due to lesser risks in theory, I think that's why Theodon appointed Eowyn to handle his political stuff, after all, there must be someone to let Rohan's national war machine keep working to afford the costs of military.

@Merroe ,please let me pass this time😅😅😅


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## Deleted member 12094 (Aug 30, 2020)

Hisoka, your statement does not have my sympathy. Might you perhaps rephrase this a little less ... well, you know!?


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## Aldarion (Aug 30, 2020)

Merroe said:


> Hisoka, your statement does not have my sympathy. Might you perhaps rephrase this a little less ... well, you know!?



This part of the post was removed due to not following our rules
*Removed by Mod: Not following our rules*

Anyway, the reason why males usually held authority in old societies is simple. Males are expendable, women are not - it is mother who is most important in formative years of a child, both physically (birth, breastfeeding) and psychologically. Thus it is males who were hunters and warriors. War bands were necessary for protection of society, so eventually leaders of war bands took political power, which is where you get first chiefs, then dukes and finally kings. And since war bands consisted of males, males thus took leading roles in politics (though woman would often have a lot more "unofficial" authority than is usually recognized nowadays, with our - rather stupid, not to say in(s)ane - obsession with form over function, and letter as opposed to spirit of the law. We can see this in Tolkien too, with Galadriel having apparently leading role in Lorien).


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 30, 2020)

Hisoka Morrow said:


> he excluded matrilineal society from his work


The Fisher-folk hobbits from which Smeagol came may be an exception, going by Gandalf's description, and (I think) a passage in UT. I'd need to look up the latter.


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## Deleted member 12094 (Aug 30, 2020)

Aldarion said:


> *Removed by Mod*



I take no pleasure at all, reading the turn this tread is taking. You are unhelpful here too Aldarion.

I take my distance here, pls note.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Aug 30, 2020)

Merroe said:


> Hisoka, your statement does not have my sympathy. Might you perhaps rephrase this a little less ... well, you know!?


Ehhh...due to going too far from topic too much?Come on, we're discussing why Theodon prefer Eowyn to stay from the front-line of War-zone,right? Or...does it involve sexual stereotype?😅😅😅


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## Halasían (Aug 30, 2020)

Talking about Theoden, Eomer, and Eowyn is one thing. Making some rather wide swings in the air with history without citing your evidential source is another, and citing one's personal experience to present a misogynistic viewpoint is yet another. To stray further off-topic, but bringing the ship back around to Middle Earth, no wonder Erendis thought Aldorian was an ass.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Aug 30, 2020)

Personal experience?My evidential source are "JRRT's BIG DATA"!!!! Tell me you big smart JRRT expert, how many cases did JRRT let females more prior than males to take military or political leaders as careers?JRRT doesn't need to take account to us for everything of his world, in particular those can be accounted by nothing but common sense. Don't tell me that JRRT has to explain most of the times that females were non-combat personnel in his lore.



Aldarion said:


> *Removed by Mod*
> 
> Anyway, the reason why males usually held authority in old societies is simple. Males are expendable, women are not - it is mother who is most important in formative years of a child, both physically (birth, breastfeeding) and psychologically. Thus it is males who were hunters and warriors. War bands were necessary for protection of society, so eventually leaders of war bands took political power, which is where you get first chiefs, then dukes and finally kings. And since war bands consisted of males, males thus took leading roles in politics (though woman would often have a lot more "unofficial" authority than is usually recognized nowadays, with our - rather stupid, not to say in(s)ane - obsession with form over function, and letter as opposed to spirit of the law. We can see this in Tolkien too, with Galadriel having apparently leading role in Lorien).


Exactly, this is not "misogyny or gender discrimination" at all. Instead, this might be "real equality" and "factually fair" from other aspects.


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## Halasían (Aug 31, 2020)

Hisoka Morrow said:


> Personal experience?





Aldarion said:


> *Removed by Mod*


Didn't think I had to point out the obvious to you Hisoka. Sorry, I wasn't taking exception with you other than the source. The initial discussion had something to do with the story in the books and was interesting. It ceased to be interesting to me a while ago and the way it is being presented with Aldarion's post which I quoted, makes the course of this discussion go way of topic and clearly brings a current attitude on women out, which for me is not on. I'm done. Have a Nice Day.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Aug 31, 2020)

Keep the thread on topic please. There's been some offensive comments that have had to be removed due to not contributing constructively. If it continues, the thread will be locked.


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## Olorgando (Aug 31, 2020)

Hisoka Morrow said:


> In addition, in comparison with military, politics seem much fitter to females due to lesser risks in theory, I think that's why Theodon appointed Eowyn to handle his political stuff, after all, there must be someone to let Rohan's national war machine keep working to afford the costs of military.


Rohan's national war machine? Hisoka, you seem to take what JRRT writes and try to apply it to I don't know what (and if you happen to be trying for *allegory*, you should know that JRRT had very strict and narrow rules for its use, and I think he would be *highly* unamused by your use). "Rohan's national war machine" (which does not exist in Middle-earth) is not the first time that I have been utterly mystified about where you get anything of the sort from JRRT's writings. The only "war machines" (which by definition are aggressive and offensive) ever mentioned in Middle-earth are those of Morgoth and Sauron - or those corrupted by them, most notably the Númenóreans gone bad. The War of Wrath, the War of the Last Alliance were not "war machines" needed for the totalitarian dominance of highly unwilling "subjects" by its leaders, they were temporary efforts aiming at the necessary destruction of precisely such aggressive "war machines". WW II is perhaps the only war in history to fit this definition (and as all human endeavors it did not achieve all necessary ends, only 2/3 of what was necessary, Hitler and Tojo, but leaving Stalin - I ignore Mussolini as basically irrelevant).


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## Hisoka Morrow (Aug 31, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> Rohan's national war machine? Hisoka, you seem to take what JRRT writes and try to apply it to I don't know what (and if you happen to be trying for *allegory*, you should know that JRRT had very strict and narrow rules for its use, and I think he would be *highly* unamused by your use). "Rohan's national war machine" (which does not exist in Middle-earth) is not the first time that I have been utterly mystified about where you get anything of the sort from JRRT's writings. The only "war machines" (which by definition are aggressive and offensive) ever mentioned in Middle-earth are those of Morgoth and Sauron - or those corrupted by them, most notably the Númenóreans gone bad. The War of Wrath, the War of the Last Alliance were not "war machines" needed for the totalitarian dominance of highly unwilling "subjects" by its leaders, they were temporary efforts aiming at the necessary destruction of precisely such aggressive "war machines". WW II is perhaps the only war in history to fit this definition (and as all human endeavors it did not achieve all necessary ends, only 2/3 of what was necessary, Hitler and Tojo, but leaving Stalin - I ignore Mussolini as basically irrelevant).


Ehh…the "war machine" I mean is every organisation that affords the war. So…I don't know if there're better words to describe such concept😖😖😖. Ok, just please give me some time to get other better words😖😖😖


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## Olorgando (Aug 31, 2020)

In the specific situation which started off the thread, the Rohirrim (after having with just managed to fend off one aggressor, Saruman, with quite a bit of help), they were riding to the aid of an ally being threatened by a much worse and stronger aggressor. Yes, Théoden did not take all of his warriors with him that were still able to fight, leaving some behind to defend as best possible his civilians, to be led (when finally having it pointed out to him by Háma) by Éowyn. None of the "good side", neither Gondor nor Rohan (and never mind the Shire or the Elves) ever had any aggressive, expansionist, imperial ambitions (which may make at least Gondor, considering it's size, somewhat unrealistic in "real-world" terms). Such ambitions, being Sauron's, are what create a war machine (and I think JRRT would have agreed very much about the "machine" aspect of it). Taking shelter in Dunharrow would not have done the Rohirrim civilians much good had Sauron been victorious, no more so than the refuge in the Glittering Caved had Saruman been able to capture Helm's Deep.
As to the "Easterlings" and "Southrons" who "supported" Sauron, besides his possible, nebulous history as a "god-king" among them in earlier Ages, might have been driven to attack Gondor anyway in the form that rich empires have always attracted plundering "barbarians". Against these Gondor and Rohan retained their military capabilities, of a defensive nature mainly, though Gondor occasionally launched attacks say against Umbar to put a stop to raiding. Again, perhaps, something unrealistic considering "real-world" history, but to use especially perhaps all-too-modern terms to describe the doings of the "good side" (the baddies being viewed as quite "modern", most of all Saruman, is quite legitimate) just doesn't fit for Middle-earth.


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## Aldarion (Aug 31, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> None of the "good side", neither Gondor nor Rohan (and never mind the Shire or the Elves) ever had any aggressive, expansionist, imperial ambitions (which may make at least Gondor, considering it's size, somewhat unrealistic in "real-world" terms).



Actually, Gondor clearly did have expansionist phase (under ship-kings, I believe). Granted, it was partly in self-defense... but that is basically what Romans did (some of the time at least): to ensure safety of their territory they will have conquered neighbouring tribe(s), which then became part of their territory, which then meant that they had to conquer new neighbours... overall, Gondor is much more "modern" of the two, and I have always seen Gondor-Rohan relationship as similar to that of Rome and its various allied tribes, although much more stable and with much less bad faith on both sides. Especially since ancestors of Rohirrim are aparently kinda-sorta Goths, while division of kingdoms is reminiscent of that of Roman Empire (and division of Arnor further similar to that of Carolingian Empire, which is successor to Western Roman Empire)...

So Gondor did have "war machine". However, there is also a clear difference from that of Mordor, and I see Gondor's military - and society in general - as sitting in-between extensive individualization and humanization of Rohan and opposing excessive collectivization and dehumanization of Mordor. Rohan itself is far from disorganized, and Gondor is obviously based on Byzantine military organization. But both of these still end up far more organic, far closer to human nature and society as such - on individual and organizational level alike - than is the case with Mordor, which is organized in line with modern, industrial military machine. In fact, it is partly this dehumanization, this excessive centralization in search of absolute control, which is partly responsible for Sauron's defeat in the end. For both Gondor and Rohan, military is connected to the society and springs organically from it; Mordor however does not have society to begin with, it is an army with a state attached to it.

So to bring this back to the OP, Elfhelm and eored being aware of Eowyn's/Dernhelm's deception is perfectly in line with virtues displayed by the Free Men, especially Rohirrim: sense of individual honour and responsibility, as opposed to industrialization of Mordor where everyone hides behind their superiors, their orders, and in general seems keen to avoid responsibility.


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## Deleted member 12094 (Aug 31, 2020)

Aldarion said:


> Gondor is obviously based on Byzantine military organization



I am more surprised each time with your ever-reiterating Byzantine stuff.
In these parts we discuss literature facts, not fanfic.

You have been challenged several times before. about your sources of that Byzantine _idée-fixe_ of yours.
Where did JRRT confirm that???

Pls beware that, by proposing nonsense for facts in this TTF forum area, you are not only confusing prospective readers; you are also undermining the credibility of this site.

*Give us your exact references where JRRT confirmed Gondor=Byzantine.*


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## Aldarion (Sep 1, 2020)

Merroe said:


> I am more surprised each time with your ever-reiterating Byzantine stuff.
> In these parts we discuss literature facts, not fanfic.
> 
> You have been challenged several times before. about your sources of that Byzantine _idée-fixe_ of yours.
> ...



Reply moved here to avoid further offtopicking, plus it is kinda long as I not only provided reference but also explained various parallels.


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## Alcuin (Sep 1, 2020)

白左


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## Aldarion (Sep 1, 2020)

[QUOTE = "Alcuin, post: 536706, član: 6732"]
白 左
[/ CITAT]
???


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## Hisoka Morrow (Sep 4, 2020)

@Aldarion , Holy Left wing "Human Right Fighters and Crusaders", that is XD


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