# History repeats itself



## Anamatar IV (Mar 2, 2003)

Does anyone notice how Tolkien makes the history in Middle-earth repeat itself? The Battle of the Field of Celebrant with the Eotheod coming to the aid of Gondor at the last moments. The battle of the Pelannor Field with the Rohirrim coming to the aid of Gondor at the last moments. Melkor destroying the two lamps and then destroying the two trees. These are just a few things I can think off the top of my head. But do you notice this? Do you think Tolkien had a bigger intent in doing this than just cool connections between history?


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## Manwë Súlimo (Mar 5, 2003)

Well history does often repeat itself, there is even a quote that sums it up:


> Always after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow takes another form and grows again.


 I can't right remember who said it or where but I just remember it because it's one of my favorites.


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## Anamatar IV (Mar 5, 2003)

Gandalf said something along those lines in Return of the King.


> Other evils there are that may come; for Sauron is himself but a servant or emissary.



From the Last Debate.


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## Rangerdave (Mar 5, 2003)

Yet another fine example of how geography sometimes dictates history.

RD


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## Mablung (Mar 5, 2003)

Yeah but it also happens so much in real life history Tolkien probably put it in to try and make it more real.


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## Celebithil (Mar 8, 2003)

History does tend to repeat itself in real life so he probably was trying to make his stories more realistic by having this happen.


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## elf boy (Mar 24, 2003)

Well, good to see that not only our history repeats itself....


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## Anamatar IV (Apr 12, 2003)

**bump**

The rebellion of Feanor and the Downfall of Numenor are also very similar but I wouldn't call it history repeating itself. They both rebelled against the Valar and both events had some Faithful who stayed behind or didn't follow the others. But Feanor's rebellion was about the death of his father and the stealing of the Silmarils. He wanted revenge upon Morgoth. The Numenoreans wanted no revenge, just to be deathless.

In a recent debate of mine with Ancalagon he brought up the point that The Downfall of Numenor and the Downfall of Denethor are very similar.



> _Originally posted by Ancalagon_
> 'Pride and despair' Anamatar. Was this not the downfall of Ar-Pharazon and The Numenoreans? What plan did Denethor have but to re-enact the second downfall of Man! Sauron orchestrated this second fall(the first being that described in Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth) , not because of desire to annihilate an entire race, simply out of revenge for Ar-Pharazons attempt to humiliate Sauron.




In the Downfall of Numenor Sauron decieved the King and poisoned his thinking until he attacked the Valar thus Sauron was successful in destroying his most threatening enemies.

But then there is Gondor, the last civilization of Men out of the West. The last strand of Numenor. And Sauron wants to reinact what he did to Numenor to Gondor. But he did it from afar with the Palantiri. Sauron decieved Denethor to the point where Denethor threw his life away.


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## Sador (Apr 14, 2003)

I started a thread about fractal storytelling before I read this one, but I think all the instances of history repeating(eg.eagles saving the day) are part of the whole mythic nature of the books.
Take almost any passage and you can see a similarity to other parts of the story. In the same way that a leaf may echo the shape of the whole tree.
History nearly repeats. Little variations creep in. A sub-creation that subtly reflects and distorts the real world.


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## Anamatar IV (Apr 18, 2003)

This quote from the commentary of Chris Tolkien of the second version of the Children of Hurin from the Lays of Beleriand is EXTREMELY helpful



> In this second part of the second version the major innovation is of course the introduction of the story of Beren and Luthien, told to Turin by his guardian Halog when they were lost in the forest, at once reminiscent of Aragorn telling of the same story to his companions on Weathertop before the attack of the Ringwraiths; and with the further introduction of the poem Light as Lead on Lindentree, the original form of the very song that Aragorn chanted on Weathtop, we realise that the one scene is actually the precursor of the other.



This not only gives an example of History repeating itself but it also shows that Tolkien intended for things like this to happen.


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## sepdet (Apr 19, 2003)

*"Fractal Storytelling"*

That's the best term I've ever heard for this technique.


It's a style of ancient epic, too. Ring structure. Things happening almost but not quite the same way. Echoes.

Tólkien tends to "soften" the repeat episodes a bit.

Aragorn and Arwen have a slightly easier time than Beren and Lúthien.

Frodo loses his finger, Beren his hand.

Frodo's departure from the Shire (in the book) is a little more orderly than Bilbo's for his adventure with the dwarves.


Morgoth —> Sauron —> Saruman at which point the protagonists finally managed to break the cycle.


The geography of Lórien mimics the geography of Doriath, although it's smaller, and we have Galadriel using Nenya to make up for not being Maiar.
Only in this case Arwen's the granddaughter, not the daughter.


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## Eledhwen (Apr 19, 2003)

I like that 'softening' comment. I just noticed the similarity between Feanor's lust for the Silmarils and Thorin's lust for the Arkenstone in The Hobbit - a smaller tale with smaller consequences, and he repented at the end.


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## Beleg (Apr 20, 2003)

He didn't actually repent,



> Then his sons raised up their father and bore him back towards Mithrim. But as they drew
> near to Eithel Sirion and were upon the upward path to the pass over the mountains, Fëanor bade
> them halt; for his wounds were mortal, and he knew that his hour was come. And looking out from
> the slopes of Ered Wethrin with his last sight he beheld far off the peaks of Thangorodrim, mightiest
> ...


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## Sador (Apr 20, 2003)

*Re: "Fractal Storytelling"*



> _Originally posted by sepdet _
> *That's the best term I've ever heard for this technique.
> 
> Thanks. I believe I invented it.
> ...


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## Eledhwen (Apr 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sador_
> *BTW Beleg I think Eledhwen was referring to Thorin repenting, not Feanor. *


Yes, I did mean _Thorin_ repented. Sorry I didn't make it clear. You're right about Tolkien's world, Sador - it surpasses any other fiction I've ever read because it affects the way one thinks - permanently.


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