# Maedhros's folly? Fingolfin Kingship?



## Confusticated (Jun 22, 2003)

During the Long Peace when the people were strong but the siege incomplete, and not long before the Battle of Sudden Flame, Fingolfin wanted to attack, but the sons of Feanor were unwilling.

It was only after Beren and Luthien took a silmaril that Maedhros decided that Morgoth needed to be attacked.

What do you folks make of this?

What were all the reasons for Maedhros's change of mind?

Unassailable or not, Morgoth would only grow in strength and fulfill his plans if left alone.

Was Maedhros foolish in his unwillingness to attack sooner?

Was there more to the unwillingness of Feanor's sons to join in with Fingolfin and see this idea through, than the thought that Morgoth was unassailable, or being content with peace? Even though Finrod and Orodreth were not of like mind with Fingolfin, surely they would have joined to aid their brothers Aegnor and Angrod. And surely Maedhros could have gained the following of his brothers, had he been of like mind with Fingolfin?

Yet Fingolfin was King of the Noldor. What use it is to be King when you do not command your people?


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## Celebthôl (Jun 22, 2003)

The way i see it is that:

Maedhros didnt want anyone else (other than the sons of Fëanor) to get hold of the Silmarils, something sure to happen if there was a joint assault i.e. One would go to Fingolfin, one to the sons of Fëanor and one to say Finrod or something like that, and at this price Maedros was unwilling to sell at.

But after Beren and Lúthien had taken one, he couldnt risk that more would be taken in a manner the same, or that Morgoth would make it harder to capture them over time, so therefore he thought that he should attack and gain the last two Silmarils as soon as possible...

Thôl


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## Beleg (Jun 22, 2003)

I basically agree with the reason, J.R.R.T gave in the text about the though of attack on Fingolfin's call.
However, the achievement of B&L would have greatly increased the hopes of the elves, and would have lessened some of the awe and terror of Morgoth. Besides Meadhros would also have realized that until they join togather for one last final strike, they would be wiped out one by one.


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## Confusticated (Jun 22, 2003)

Interesting take, Celebthol.



> _Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow _
> *I basically agree with the reason, J.R.R.T gave in the text about the though of attack on Fingolfin's call.*


Do you think there was no more to it than that they didn't want to get a bunch of people killed?



> *Besides Meadhros would also have realized that until they join togather for one last final strike, they would be wiped out one by one. *



Did the Dagor Bragollach and the consequent ruin convince or motivate Maedhros as much as the taking of a silmaril? 

Of Maedhros's decision to attack Morgoth, we have this:


> In those days Maedhros son of Feanor lifted up his head perceiving that Morgoth was not unassailable; for the deeds of Beren and Luthien were sung in many songs throughout Beleriand. Yet Morgoth would destroy them all, one by one, if they could not again unite, and make new league and common council; and he began those counsels for the raising of the fortunes of the Eldar that are called the Union of Maedhros.



The ruin of Beleriand must have caused Maedhros to think Morgoth would destroy them all, but shouldn't he have already known this back when Fingolfin wanted to attack Morgoth?

Sounds like he previously thought Morgoth was unassailable.

But this is said of Fingolfin's plan:


> This counsel was wise according to the measure of his knowledge; for the Noldor did not yet comprehend the fullness of the power of Morgoth, nor understand that their unaided war upon him was without final hope, whether they hasted or delayed.



They didn't know they were without hope going alone against Morgoth, so how did they think he was unassailable.

Now if they thought he was unassailable, shouldn't it stand to reason that he'd have to be capable of attacking them eventually? So, why not go against Morgoth before he builds strength over time and comes against you.


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## Celebthôl (Jun 22, 2003)

Because (as i see it) you can build up your forces aswell,
Also you could have some time of peace, they never really had too long a time of peace, a matter of what a hundred years was all they had if i remember rightly. To an Elve thats no time at all...


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## Confusticated (Jun 22, 2003)

The siege lasted for almost 400 years, and that was mostly good times for all the Noldor.

I don't understand what you mean about them needing time to build forces. Do you mean growing in population?

They made no move to come together and form a real plan of attack against Morgoth at this point. To have done that would be to build forces, in my opinion.


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## Celebthôl (Jun 22, 2003)

Well im just trying to get on the other point of view here, i think they should have acted sooner.

Yes i meant they may have been building up their populations...

But there was really no hurry to rush into an all out battle for who knows how long, the Silmarils were going nowhere soon, and well Elves live forever, so why rush into it?


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## Captain (Jun 23, 2003)

Also, Maedhros thought that Morgoth was able to be defeated after Beren and Luthien pulled it off. And don't pick on Maedhros! He's one of my favorite characters!


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## Beleg (Jun 24, 2003)

> Do you think there was no more to it than that they didn't want to get a bunch of people killed?



None that I can think off. 



> Did the Dagor Bragollach and the consequent ruin convince or motivate Maedhros as much as the taking of a silmaril?



Yes. The deeds of B&L would have shown that Morgoth wasn't inassiasble (If the Eldar ever thought that way). 
And the disaster of Bragollach would have motivated Meadhros to raise a united forces as a last defence and positive offence against the on-slaught of Morgoth. 


> The ruin of Beleriand must have caused Maedhros to think Morgoth would destroy them all, but shouldn't he have already known this back when Fingolfin wanted to attack Morgoth?



The killing of one person; however mighty he might be, doesn't mean that a whole race is defeated.
It might symbolize Morgoth's greatness in single combat (which was to be expected; since he was a Vala, of greater power then Fingolfin) but that was different from a battle. 



> so how did they think he was unassailable.



I don't think that the thought "Morgoth is unassailble" was in Noldor mind when they refused to act upon the suggestion of Fingolfin. 
The who fiasco of B&S would have further confirmed it. 
Besides during the long siege the Noldor were used to tread upon the planes of Ard-Galen, so close to Morgoth's stronghold. 
They would even walk up to the gates of Angband. 
I don't think they thought Morgoth or Angband was unassailbe and certainly that wasn't the motive behind their refusal to act on the suggestion of Fingolifin; or so I think.


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## gate7ole (Jun 25, 2003)

I always thought that Maedhros and the rest Feanoreans were content with peace, forgetting for a while their terrible oath. But they were reminded of their duty by the deed of B&L. Of course the other reasons (that Beleg_strongbow said) stand too, but I think they were secondary.


> Yet Fingolfin was King of the Noldor. What use it is to be King when you do not command your people?


Well, actually the Feanoreans never accepted fully Fingolfin as their king. They acted pretty much independently. And don't forget the Doom of Mandos that laid on them and never let them be united.


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## Confusticated (Jun 25, 2003)

> _gate7ole_
> Well, actually the Feanoreans never accepted fully Fingolfin as their king. They acted pretty much independently. And don't forget the Doom of Mandos that laid on them and never let them be united.



I tried to hint at this earlier. Could it be that Feanor's sons were less inclined to go with Fingolfin's idea because he was who he was? If one of them had tried to put together an attack against Morgoth at that time, would the others have happily followed?

_If anything_ the Doom was the reason for the reasons, I think.



> _Captian_
> Also, Maedhros thought that Morgoth was able to be defeated after Beren and Luthien pulled it off.


How could he just then realise this for the first time, when it is said they did not know war against Morgoth was without final hope unaided.

Didn't Maedhros already think they could possibly take Morgoth out? Else how could he have not knwon it was without hope?

'...for the Noldor did not yet comprehend the fullness of the power of Morgoth, nor understand that their unaided war upon him was without final hope, whether they hasted or delayed.'

Does this just refer to the Noldor in general, and perhaps not include all the princes of the Noldor?


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## Confusticated (Mar 17, 2004)

Nevermind Maedhros then. What about Curufin and Celegorm.

Why would Curufin and Celegorm have been unwilling? We know they had a plan, not long after the Dagor Bragollach, to attack Morgoth with the strength of the Eldar.

While Fingolfin was willing (therefore Hithlum.... most valiant and feared of the elves) and Aegnor and Angrod were willing (and so their brothers at Tol Sirion and Nargothrond would have joined), why didn't they support this and push Maedhros to see the light? They could have had all of the Noldor (assuming Turgon got word) and much of the Sindar.

What if anything did the breaking of the siege have to do with them getting plans to rule Nargothrond and great kingdoms to take against Morgoth? I wonder if they looked back now at Fingolfin's council and thought they had passed a perfect opportunity.


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## Melian_the_Maya (Mar 17, 2004)

I think that actually the sons of Feanor (with the exception of Maedhros, who was slightly more inclined towards friendship as far as Fingolfin&co were concerned) would have only started a war once they would have been certain of having command over the assault. They were very proud people, so I would have thought that generally they would have wanted to be in charge of whatever action was taken for the recovery of the Silmarils/ the winning of the war.

However, the deeds of Beren and Luthien destabilized this plan, because one of the Silmarils was already taken and not by a son of Feanor. They would have urged the rest to act, despite their pride, in hope that they would in the end persuade Fingolfin by means of Maedhros to be given the two other Silmarils at least.

Also this assault upon Mordor of Luthien and Beren proved that their oath could be fulfilled, which was something I think they never before had had the hope of doing, although they said so in words. They thought that strategically that was the best moment to attack, when Morgoth was still somewhat surprised and (maybe) vulnerable.


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## Confusticated (Mar 17, 2004)

Melian The Maya said:


> I think that actually the sons of Feanor (with the exception of Maedhros, who was slightly more inclined towards friendship as far as Fingolfin&co were concerned) would have only started a war once they would have been certain of having command over the assault. They were very proud people, so I would have thought that generally they would have wanted to be in charge of whatever action was taken for the recovery of the Silmarils/ the winning of the war.



I think it is likely. It was in part a bad idea because it was a Fingolfin idea. 



> However, the deeds of Beren and Luthien destabilized this plan, because one of the Silmarils was already taken and not by a son of Feanor. They would have urged the rest to act, despite their pride, in hope that they would in the end persuade Fingolfin by means of Maedhros to be given the two other Silmarils at least.



But, Curufin and Celegorm had thought of an atack on Morgoth before Beren and Luthien stole a silmaril. In fact they seem to have had no hope the plan of Beren would succeed, even with the aid of Nargothrond. For had they thought it was possible, surely they'd have supported it rather than turning Finrod's support against him, thinking it would be easier to take a silmaril from elves or Men than from the depths of Angband?

Fingolfin died before the silmaril was recovered. I guess you mean Fingon?

I don't doubt that Beren and Luthien's quest had a big impact on the outlook of the Feanorians with regard to their oath... but I am especially interested in what impact the Dagor Bragollach alone had.


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## Inderjit S (Mar 17, 2004)

You must bear in mind that Maedhros and co. were in striking distance of Angband, yet they absolved from attacking Morgoth unlike Angrod and Aegnor. Strange that. Maybe they had got accustomed to the splendour of Beleriand and had become indolent and arrogant as a result. But you could accuse other Ñoldor of that.

Maybe they felt it wasn't a wise time to strike?

I have always felt the high-kingship to be in name only, a kind of pseudo-kingship. It is likely that Fëanorians would have more likely have obeyed Maedhros or the people of Gondolin Turgon etc. then their high king. I found it funny that it was a Sindar, Círdan who aided Fingon the high-king when he was in trouble in the Bragollach.


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## Confusticated (Mar 20, 2004)

Inderjit S said:


> Maybe they felt it wasn't a wise time to strike?



Could be. But I can't help wonder what Curufin and Celegorm really thought when Fingolfin suggested an attack on Morgoth. And, since Maedhros apparantly believed at this point that Morgoth could not be assailed - what were his more long term plans to fulfil his oath? I wonder if he had any or just thought he'd take it easy. I also wonder how much Curufin really trusted Fingolfin.



Inder said:


> I found it funny that it was a Sindar, Círdan who aided Fingon the high-king when he was in trouble in the Bragollach.



Well... maybe, but then most the Noldor may have still been pretty busy... bear in mind they count the Bragollach to have ended when the assualt became less... didn't end altogether. And after they had room to breath they did what they could to drive back orcs and retake what they had lost.

It could even be that Cirdan's ships were used because Nargothrond wanted to come to the aid of Fingon but because minions where crawling over Beleriand and Sauron had just taken Tol Sirion, going by sea was the best tactic and/or Nargothrond was busy kicking orc-butt. Cirdan & Falathrim were good chums of Finrod and Nargothrond, and Finrod would obviously aid cousin Fingon in any way he could, so I wouldn't go as far as thinking Cirdan helped when no one else was willing. Though, I'm not sure exactly what you had in mind when you say it is funny. Maybe you think Sindar rescuing Noldor in battle is funny the way it would be funny if Pippin rescued Tulkas? 



Inderjit said:


> I have always felt the high-kingship to be in name only, a kind of pseudo-kingship.


Yep.

Note the "High King" of Elves - Idle Ingwe, as I like to call him.

And the "High King" of Arda. 

But seriously... I don't think anyone could dispute this about the High Kings of the Noldor.


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## Inderjit S (Mar 20, 2004)

> But I can't help wonder what Curufin and Celegorm really thought when Fingolfin suggested an attack on Morgoth



I don't know. In 'Of Maeglin' Tolkien, strangely talks about the two anticipating an attack by Morgoth or being busy in preparation for battle, which is strange since the unforeseen Bragollach was some years off from the narrative. It could be that, as is common in some of Tolkien's latter works, is that he had forgotten some of his old ideas and inserted paradoxical paradigm's (compared to earlier ideas) or he could be referring to small border wars which may have been common in the two's domain. 

It is possible that the two were intrinsically anti-Fingolfin, but they were good friends with his daughter, so they may have interacted with their family over in Aman but as soon as the troubles between Fëanor and his half brother began to engulf the realm they began to seclude themselves from their kinsfolk. Even Maedhros and Fingon’s relations had been strained somewhat. Of course Caranthir was incensed when Maedhros seceded, despite the fact that it was inevitable for his brother to do so. Some of Fëanor’s other sons shared his views and I suspected that one or both of them were angered at ascension of Fingolfin to Ñoldorin king. 

Neither of them attended Fingolfin's feast. (Correct me if I am wrong, but only Maedhros and Maglor represented the Fëanorians there, yes?) 

I really don't think Fingolfin was able to assert much hegemony over some of "his" people. The title 'high-king' was a ubiquitous title, in name only really, most of the Fëanorians may have held Maedhros in their heart as their “true king”.



> Well... maybe, but then most the Noldor may have still been pretty busy... bear in mind they count the Bragollach to have ended when the assualt became less... didn't end altogether. And after they had room to breath they did what they could to drive back orcs and retake what they had lost.



Good point, esp. considering the other main Noldorin refuge was in Himring and it would have been impossible for them to help, and with Gondolin and Nargothrond keen to remain "hidden"....



> Maybe you think Sindar rescuing Noldor in battle is funny the way it would be funny if Pippin rescued Tulkas



Just...funny, I can imagine "Fingon king we have help!" "Who is it? Maedhros? Felagund? Fingon?" "Err....Círdan."


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## Confusticated (Mar 20, 2004)

Inderjit S said:


> I don't know. In 'Of Maeglin' Tolkien, strangely talks about the two anticipating an attack by Morgoth or being busy in preparation for battle, which is strange since the unforeseen Bragollach was some years off from the narrative. It could be that, as is common in some of Tolkien's latter works, is that he had forgotten some of his old ideas and inserted paradoxical paradigm's (compared to earlier ideas) or he could be referring to small border wars which may have been common in the two's domain.


I'm not familiar enough with 'Of Maeglin' to comment.



Inderjit said:


> It is possible that the two were intrinsically anti-Fingolfin, but they were good friends with his daughter, so they may have interacted with their family over in Aman but as soon as the troubles between Fëanor and his half brother began to engulf the realm they began to seclude themselves from their kinsfolk. Even Maedhros and Fingon’s relations had been strained somewhat. Of course Caranthir was incensed when Maedhros seceded, despite the fact that it was inevitable for his brother to do so. Some of Fëanor’s other sons shared his views and I suspected that one or both of them were angered at ascension of Fingolfin to Ñoldorin king.
> 
> Neither of them attended Fingolfin's feast. (Correct me if I am wrong, but only Maedhros and Maglor represented the Fëanorians there, yes?)



Yes... some Feanorian were ticked about Fingolfin as High King, and I don't doubt Curufin and Celegorm were among them. But dislike as King and distrust are two different matters. But aren't people with their type of personality generally distrustful? After all - there might be more people like themselves out there! Perhaps fear of treason was at play more often than we are specificly told.

Speaking of their friendship with Aredhel, and the frienship between Fingon and Maedhros, I begin to wonder what Feanor thought of his sons having close dealings with the children of a brother he resented and thought was plotting to gain the rule of Tirion? Wonder if Aredhel or Fingon ever visited Formenos. Wonder what dealings Turgon had with them.

Yes... it was Maglor and Maedhros who attended the feast.



inderjit said:


> I really don't think Fingolfin was able to assert much hegemony over some of "his" people. The title 'high-king' was a ubiquitous title, in name only really...




Does seem that way, but I still wonder: Could the High Kings have asserted authority over the others, but simply never chose to? But then Fingolfin probably knew better than to try.


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## Inderjit S (Mar 20, 2004)

> But dislike as King and distrust are two different matters. But aren't people with their type of personality generally distrustful?



Probable. Then again maybe they were different before all the business with Morgoth or the Silmaril oath, though I wouldn't count on it, it seems that both are intrinsically 'tainted' or that is, both have bad characteristics. Since Curufin was said to be a lot like Fëanor then we can assume that he was inherently proud, arrogant and condescending, but we must remember that Fëanor and his sons were a product (however partially) of their times and so Curufin may not have been as haughty as his father but the evidence doesn't seem to back this up. Celegorm; I have more faith in him, even though he was equally villainous in the tale of Tinúviel I always thought of him as being the better of the two, not that is much of an achievement, but maybe he did take after his mother's side of the family a little bit but the Shibboleth does allude to his quick temper (Tyelkormo; 'hasty-riser') though of course all this is just mindless stipulations in all probability both were probably not good natured, but it is nice to have some diverse views on some characters rather then stereotyping them as being "good" or "evil" and looking at reasons for their iniquity. 



> Speaking of their friendship with Aredhel, and the frienship between Fingon and Maedhros, I begin to wonder what Feanor thought of his sons having close dealings with the children of a brother he resented and thought was plotting to gain the rule of Tirion? Wonder if Aredhel or Fingon ever visited Formenos. Wonder what dealings Turgon had with them



I don't think Turgon had any dealings with them. Aredhel may have visited them, on occasion they used to hunt/date in Aman but Fingon and Maedhros seemed to have cut of their relations to an extent in Aman. What about Argon? He seems like he would fit in with the Fëanorians.

There were of course some widespread rumours about the Ñoldorin kingdoms and princeships that aroused some jealousy amongst the princes and which Círdan and co. picked up on. 



> Does seem that way, but I still wonder: Could the High Kings have asserted authority over the others, but simply never chose to?



Possibly, but I think that may have led to further dissonances and Fingolfin and Fingon were wise enough to know it. Turgon, owing to his hidden kingdom seems to have been aloof to a lot of the plights of his people. 

Gil-Galad lived on Balar with Círdan as his 'tutor' though it seems Tuor and later Eärendil were able to keep up their own autonomous kingdom by Sirion for some time, though Gil-Galad sent help, so if not under Gil-Galad's tutelage they were at least amiable with him. Though I wonder how the Sirionians were more likely to listen to, Tuor and husband of their princess and his son, or the son of Orodreth? It seems to be the same predicament as before. The Fëanorians seem to have their own independent realm in Ossiriand and later wherever they lived, since they seemed to have been quite nomadic. Would they have respected Gil-Galad? Wouldn't they assert Maedhros as the true king instead of some fourth generation Finwëan or would they respect the word of Maedhros to Fingolfin about the dispossession of the kingship and did the kingship really matter at the time?


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## Confusticated (Mar 21, 2004)

Inderjit S said:


> Celegorm; I have more faith in him, even though he was equally villainous in the tale of Tinúviel I always thought of him as being the better of the two, not that is much of an achievement, but maybe he did take after his mother's side of the family a little bit but the Shibboleth does allude to his quick temper (Tyelkormo; 'hasty-riser') though of course all this is just mindless stipulations in all probability both were probably not good natured, but it is nice to have some diverse views on some characters rather then stereotyping them as being "good" or "evil" and looking at reasons for their iniquity.


Yeah, and I like to wonder about their motives.

Good points about Curufin and Celegorm and their possible views on Fingolfin, but I was only thinking of their opinion of him during the time of the WotJ, as I was wondering how that might have effected their (apparant) unwillingness to side with him and Aegnor & Angrod in the idea to attack Morgoth. 

Did C&C's idea to attack Morgoth come only after the Bragollach? Or had it already existed but Maedhros disagreed with/over-ruled them when Fingolfin asked around? Had it already existed but they shunned the idea out of spite because it was initiated by Fingolfin? Or did they already have the idea to attack Morgoth one day, but were unwilling now because of distrust Fingolfin's motives and intentions? Or did they already want to attack Morgoth, but were just having a lot of fun in peace on the day their opinions were asked, and unwisely said "no" because they were caught up in some moment?



inder said:


> What about Argon? He seems like he would fit in with the Fëanorians.


Indeed. Especially the fact that he was, for a time at least, said to have died in the Kinslaying (whereas it is once stated that Fingon and Turgon had no part in it, and in other places it is left open but generally gives the impression, I think, they had no part - Though I am not sure how that could be). On the other hand, he was said at one point to have died crossing the Helcaraxe, so if a friend of Feanor's sons, was at least not more close with them than his own siblings. And finally he died in battle after reaching Middle-earth, previous reason applies here - he was with Fingolfin his father, not his Feanorson cousins. Aredhel is mysterious, and I have wondered about her. What was her take turing Feanor's speech in Tirion... when Fingolfin and Turgon spoke against Feanor, but Fingon wanted to be gone? Did she consider taking the oath? ... but hey, considering she'd rather visit her cousins than her own brother, who knows?



Inderjit said:


> There were of course some widespread rumours about the Ñoldorin kingdoms and princeships that aroused some jealousy amongst the princes and which Círdan and co. picked up on.


Good point, and do wonder what exactly these jealousies were. So far as I know it is nowhere said, is it?





Inderjit said:


> Possibly, but I think that may have led to further dissonances and Fingolfin and Fingon were wise enough to know it. Turgon, owing to his hidden kingdom seems to have been aloof to a lot of the plights of his people.
> 
> Gil-Galad lived on Balar with Círdan as his 'tutor' though it seems Tuor and later Eärendil were able to keep up their own autonomous kingdom by Sirion for some time, though Gil-Galad sent help, so if not under Gil-Galad's tutelage they were at least amiable with him. Though I wonder how the Sirionians were more likely to listen to, Tuor and husband of their princess and his son, or the son of Orodreth? It seems to be the same predicament as before. The Fëanorians seem to have their own independent realm in Ossiriand and later wherever they lived, since they seemed to have been quite nomadic. Would they have respected Gil-Galad? Wouldn't they assert Maedhros as the true king instead of some fourth generation Finwëan or would they respect the word of Maedhros to Fingolfin about the dispossession of the kingship and did the kingship really matter at the time?



I don't know if they would assert Maedhros.

I imagine that in the case of a disagreement between Tuor and Gil-galad, the people would be divided. I just can't see Gil-galad having authority over all. Bear in mind too, that when Gil-galad did not trust Sauron that Eregion did not differ to the warnings of the High King here, but went forward in dealing with Sauron and making Rings. This is a good example of the lack of authority of the High Kings of the Noldor I think, specificly because there is really no politcal reasons Gil-galad should fail to put his foot down out of concern that murderous Feanoreans would not have it, whereas (as have said) it would have been unwise for Fingolfin to try to force his authority (IF he really had any) - due to Feanor's sons. There was nothing (am I missing something?) to stop Gil-galad from commanding Eregion to shun Sauron (if not the fact it was not in his authority to do so), so far as I know. The High King merely failed to press them on the matter.


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## Inderjit S (Mar 22, 2004)

> Did C&C's idea to attack Morgoth come only after the Bragollach



Well since they wanted to take over Nargothrond and make it into a large realm, I think for selfish reasons more then anything then I doubt it or it could be that Nargothrond was more secure then their former realm and their opinion may have been different if that was so. Maybe they wanted to lie low? They may have been coaxed into joining the Nirnaeth by their brother, or they may have actually felt it was time to strike or maybe they just had some blood-lust.  I don't think they would go so far as let a personal vendetta get in the way of their safety, they were afraid of Turgon and any repercussion’s of the Aredhel affair for example.

I don't think Aredhel would have cared to get involved in the speech debacle though she probably busied herself staring at Maedhros's sorry Maitimo's butt.



> Good point, and do wonder what exactly these jealousies were. So far as I know it is nowhere said, is it?



One can only speculate, though one has to be bothered to speculate in order to do so.  I imagine it was something along the lines of perverse Chinese whispers games and youthful pranks, or flirting with each other's wives/mistresses or some such elvish nonsense.



> I don't know if they would assert Maedhros.



I think they would, they seemed pretty autonomous until they murdered the Sirionians that is and juxtaposed themselves with the remnants. Or else they would just speculate amongst themselves or some such elvish nonsense.

Besides who was this Gil-Galad anyway he was like 10 and the son of Orodreth the incompetent, puppet of Thingol, the idiotic and the less said about his relationship with his 'tutor' sailor extraordinaire Círdan the better. I'm not accusing the honest Círdan of pederasty; but...

On the three rings, I think Gil-Galad only had suspicions, pretty long running ones (letter to Tar-Meneldur) but no direct command was issued, though the smiths were pretty firmly under the yoke of Sauron (i.e. them telling Galadriel and her hubby to push off back to the hole they came from i.e. Doriath) and besides one can sense some Fëanorian pride (alas!) in Celebrimbor's decisions to welcome Sauron (alas!) and so Celebrimbor could just shrug his shoulders, smile idiotically and twiddle his gingers before saying "Well, the first time I got suspicious of this Annatar fellow was when I saw that his guards were not Elves but Orks, but then thought to myself, maybe they were just particularly ugly Elves like Galadriel's toyboy, that monkey Celeborn of the trees or maybe they were related to Maeglin and his mole men" before getting embroiled in pedantic argument over whether that actually was canonical and who the hell his father was in 1966?

But I don't think Gil-Galad wanted to coerce himself too much in others affairs may cause disgruntlement and we all saw what happened to Fingolfin when he was trying to force everyone to go to war and his son Fingon stabbed him in the back with a harp, and fabricated some baloney about him going off and fighting Morgoth and stabbing him seven times and then being rescued by an eagle with a 100 foot lifespan and being dropped in a cairn in Gondolin where no one actually goes, because Fingolfin's body was there....yeah SURE.


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