# What were 'The Goblin Wars?'



## Maeglin (Oct 4, 2002)

*what were the goblin wars?*



> Elrond knew all about swords of every kind. That day he looked at the swords they had brought from the trolls' lair, and he said: "These are not troll-make. They are old swords, very old swords of the High Elves of the West, my kin. They were made in Gondolin for the goblin-wars. They must have come from a dragon's hoard or goblin plunderer, for dragons and goblins destroyed that city many ages ago. This, Thorin, the runes name Orcrist, the goblin-cleaver in the ancient tongue of Gondolin; it was a famous blade. This Gandalf, was Glamdring, Foe-hammer that the king of Gondolin once wore. Keep them well!"



Ok everyone, why did Elrond call them the goblin-wars? Everyone knows the elves were fighting against a whole lot more than just goblins, they were fighting dragons and Balrogs and evil men and wolves, and above all, they were fighting against Morgoth, so why would Elrond just call them the goblin-wars? The very thought that goblins alone could overthrow Gondolin is insane. Could this be a mistake by JRRT? And if it is its a big one, because he wrote The Silmarillion before The Hobbit. And also, I don't remember in the Sil that it was ever mentioned that Turgon had a sword named Glamdring. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?


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## Anamatar IV (Oct 4, 2002)

the sil was written after LOTR which came after the hobbit. And thousnads of orcs poured into gondolin and only a few dragons and balrogs.


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## Anamatar IV (Oct 4, 2002)

*Did Turgon weild Gladmring?*

I remember this quote from the hobbit:



> Elrond knew all about swords of every kind. That day he looked at the swords they had brought from the trolls' lair, and he said: "These are not troll-make. They are old swords, very old swords of the High Elves of the West, my kin. They were made in Gondolin for the goblin-wars. They must have come from a dragon's hoard or goblin plunderer, for dragons and goblins destroyed that city many ages ago. This, Thorin, the runes name Orcrist, the goblin-cleaver in the ancient tongue of Gondolin; it was a famous blade.* This Gandalf, was Glamdring, Foe-hammer that the king of Gondolin once wore. Keep them well!"*



The king of Gondolin...the ONLY king of Gondolin as far as I know was Turgon. So does that mean that Turgon weilded Glamdring? Did he slay Gothmog with Gandalfs future sword?


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## TheFool (Oct 4, 2002)

I thought the Silmarillion was written from like 1915 onwards? 

Also I think the sack of Gondolin was pretty much the first ME story he wrote? If so he probably had to revise it a lot; maybe the first version had 'goblins', then he revised it after writing Hobbit...


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## Anamatar IV (Oct 4, 2002)

> copywrite 1977



Tolkiens son edited the book after tolkien died. The hobbit was the 1st.


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## Maeglin (Oct 4, 2002)

just because the copywrite is later doesn't mean that it was the last thing to be written, I am pretty sure that the Sil was his first ever work that he started before the Hobbit, but no one would publish it so he went on to writing the Hobbit and that got published along with LotR, and after everyone saw the popularity of LotR the Sil got published, but you are right about Christopher Tolkien editing it.


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## Anamatar IV (Oct 4, 2002)

but notice how tolkien matches the names up and stuff. In the chapter of Beleriand he said the so and so mountains which later came to be known as the MISTY MOUNTAINS. ARAGORN, ISILDUR, ELENDIL, ELROND, GANDALFS REAL NAME, GALADRIEL, CELEBORN, im sure it came after LOTR.


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## Ithrynluin (Oct 4, 2002)

It's not certain that Turgon wore Glamdring I think,because it is nowhere explicitly stated. And Turgon slew no Balrogs at all, Echtelion killed Gothmog.


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## gate7ole (Oct 4, 2002)

The most interesting aspect of Glamdring is that it was lost in the fall of Gondolin and was found 6000 years later east of the Blue Mountains, many kms away. How could a sword be moved to such a great distance, considering that Beleriand was sunk? We cannot know, only assume that after the fall of Gondolin, one of the "bad guys" took it with him and thus saved it from the sinking. Then this "bad guy" must have been saved from the War of Wrath, too and fled east where he lost the sword (or was robbed by the trolls). Of course it is all speculations.


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## Anárion (Oct 4, 2002)

Well, I dont know which book was written first, but I dont think that Mithrandir and the Dwarves really wanted a history lesson about Elves.
He had to call it the something wars and "Balrog wars" arent very good b/c there were 100 at most Balrogs, if even.
Like Anamatar IV said, there were thousands of Goblins and few of everything else.(Sorry, I havent figured out quoteing yet, so I had to put in that.)


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## YayGollum (Oct 4, 2002)

I think Elrond said goblin wars because The Hobbit was made mostly for kids. oh well. I doubt that little kids would be very interested in wanting to know more about balrogs and Morgoth and stuff by reading The Sil. that lots of older people don't get. Anyways, I always thought that Tolkien made The Sil. over a long period of time. It was just a bunch of mythology that his kid stuck together to look structured. He might have come up with the specifics of the thing you people are talking about after he wrote The Hobbit. Never mind.


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## Anamatar IV (Oct 4, 2002)

turgon was the only king of gondolin right?


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## Ithrynluin (Oct 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Anamatar IV _
> *turgon was the only king of gondolin right? *



That's right. He was also the High King of the Noldor for a little while.
Anamatar if you have any more questions,you can ask them at the "apprentices" thread in our guild,if you want.


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## Anamatar IV (Oct 4, 2002)

that was just the question leading to my next point. If turgon was the only king of gondolin (almost said gondor there ) and glamdring was worn by the king of gondolin then obviously Turgon wielded Glamdring.

And by Sunday i WONT be an apprentice


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## Anárion (Oct 4, 2002)

Good point.
He made the Hobbit for kids(around the areas of 11-13 or so) and the Sil for anyone who can understand really big words, or who like to read dictionarys for fun


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## Anamatar IV (Oct 4, 2002)

hey my sister once tried to read a dictionary. She got to 'ar...' then i tried and i feel so proud of myself. i got to 'ba'! The hobbit was very easy.


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## Maeglin (Oct 4, 2002)

wow Anamatar I just posted that question and the same exact quote in the Hobbit forum earlier today, so i've been wondering the same thing, but no one has been answering that part of my question in the thread, they only pay attention to the first part.


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## Anamatar IV (Oct 5, 2002)

whoops. I guess nobody really pays attention to the last sentence. But this one is in a whole other forum. I feel so smart now that i figured that out. And i copied the quote from your post actually.


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## Maeglin (Oct 5, 2002)

I am honored that you would use my quote.


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