# Why the West?



## Lhunithiliel (Feb 14, 2004)

For more than a year and a half I've been studying and researching the works of Tolkien (all that I have available)... and I have taken the worshiping of the West as granted.
Yet, I often wonder why! Why the West?

I guess this has sth. to do with the very roots of Tolkien's mythology, based on the Norse and Celtic ancient lore... 
But as lately I've been working on a research to establish the links between real history and mythology, I have found out a lot and still can't understand this element - the West!!! All the nations that had influenced both - histroy and mythology of England, had come from the East and North.
Then why the West?
What are the roots for placing the mythical "Undying lands" to the West?

Opinions?


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## Minuel Lasgalas (Feb 14, 2004)

Lhunithiliel said:


> Opinions?



This is off-the-hip and before coffee...  

Several major civilizations started in what was 'the East' and moved West; Continental europe... the America's and the awakening occured around Lake Cuiviénen - the very distant East of ME.

There has also been some - call it mythical fixation, for lack of a better term this early on a Saturday - on the sun [rising in the East, setting in the West]. Perhaps rising/birth in the East, resting/[un]dying in the West? 

I'll have to think about it some more after coffee


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## Sarde (Feb 14, 2004)

It sounds like a pretty good theory, even if it was off-the-hip and before coffee.


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## Aulë (Feb 14, 2004)

I presume that it's got a lot to do with symbolism.

I'm never any good at figuring these things out, but I'm guessing that it's got to do with how the sun sets in the West, and therefore it symbolizes the end of things. Once the Elves have reached the end of their 'day', they must also travel to the West.

(Maybe Tolkien just randomly put Valinor over there  There's a 1 in 4 chance that he would have chosen West.  )


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## Inderjit S (Feb 14, 2004)

I don't know why Tolkien put Valinor in the West, but Elves and Men (and some Dwarves) awoke in the East, some of the Elves went West to go to Aman and the Men went west for a similar reason, because they were intrinsically 'called' to the West. 

'The East' is linked with evil. Tolkien states that some of the Eastern Dwarvish housed had turned evil, and a lot of the men of the East were evil. (Though some were converted by Morinehtar and Rómestámo.) Tolkien states that the men of the East far out-numbered the Númenóreans and their allies in the West. Judging by Frodo's vision on Amon Hen and the description of the Eldarin journey the Eastern lands consisted of a wide expanse of land with lot's of different peoples (i.e. Waindriders, the dwarf like Easterlings seen in Anórien and garrisoned at Osgiliath.) and they attacked Gondor and the Northmen many times. 

Men were seduced by Morgoth in the East, and the 'good' Men fled West, the Bëorians and Marachians living on opposite sides of the Sea of Rhûn and other tribes such as the Haladin, Borrim, the Druedain and maybe the Hobbits, fled from Morgoth's tyranny, if they existed then. They were always at war with the Morgoth worshippers. A lot of these Men had contact with Dwarves (Adunaic and some Easterling tongue were said to be akin, in some ways, to Khuzdul) and some Elves (Avari, Tatyarin and Nelyarin) and these 'good' Men fled west for various reasons, to escape the darkness (Athrabeth) find a land of peace etc. and from these Men came either the good indigenous population of Eriador and Rhovanion or the Edain and thus the Númenóreans. 

The Sindar were of course left behind in Beleriand and they remained there, whilst the Noldor wanted to make war on Morgoth, who now occupied his western fortress of Angband. After the War of Wrath, a lot of the Elves stayed in what was left of Beleriand, Lindon. under the tutelage of Gil-Galad, with lords such as Círdan and Elrond. Galadriel and Celeborn had crossed over M-E before the fall of Nargothrond, and established at first a lake near the Lake Evendim for Elves and later some men established cordial relations with them. Some of the Noldor (and some Sindar) went to Eriador and founded Ost-in-Edhil whilst Amdir Mal Galad and Oropher founded kingdoms in the East with the Sylvan Elves, headed by Iathrim Sindar. 

When Elendil, and his sons, Anárion and Isildur escaped the downfall they landed in the North and South. Some of the faithful Númenóreans had already settled there beforehand whilst a lot fo the black Númenóreans went south away from the tutelage of Gil-Galad. But the call of the sea was too strong for the Elves, as Legolas states all Elves feel it's call, and it is in the West.

Locations are by no means a indicator of the colour of skin of the Men who lived in the place, dark skinned peoples made up a lot of the indigenous population of Eriador, there may have been black, white, brown, yellow or pink people in the East, though the south was predominantly dark skinned it still had the fair skinned Black Númenóreans, some of whom mixed with the Haradrim.


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## Ardamir the Blessed (Feb 15, 2004)

Letter #163:


> In any case if you want to write a tale of this sort you must consult your roots, and a man of the North-west of the Old World will set his heart and the action of his tale in an imaginary world of that air, and that situation : with the Shoreless Sea of his innumerable ancestors to the West, and the endless lands (out of which enemies mostly come) to the East. Though, in addition, his heart may remember, even if he has been cut off from all oral tradition, the rumour all along the coasts of the Men out of the Sea.


Letter #276:


> It [_Númenor_] is a construction from the Eldarin base √NDU 'below, down; descend'; Q. _núme_ 'going down, occident'; _númen_ '*the direction or region of the sunset*' +_nóre_ 'land' as an inhabited area. I have often used _Westernesse_ as a translation. This is derived from rare Middle English Westernesse (known to me only in MS. C of _King Horn_) where the meaning is vague, but may be taken to mean 'Western lands' as distinct from the East inhabited by the Paynim and Saracens.


Letter #294:


> Auden has asserted that for me 'the North is a sacred direction'. That is not true. The North-west of Europe, where I (and most of my ancestors) have lived, has my affection, as a man's home should. I love its atmosphere, and know more of its histories and languages than I do of other parts; but it is not 'sacred', nor does it exhaust my affections. I have, for instance, a particular love for the Latin language, and among its descendants for Spanish. That it is untrue for my story, a mere reading of the synopses should show. The North was the seat of the fortresses of the Devil.


Letter #347:


> Andúril means Flame of the West (as a region) not of the Sunset.


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## Lhunithiliel (Feb 15, 2004)

*Indy*, as always, a detailed and carefully structured post!  
Yet... I find all this as a _status quo_ as far as Tolkien mythical world is concerned. There - in his world the West is good and the East - evil...And not only the East, but in fact the North and the South, too! Which places the West in the highly "privilleged" position to be the _only_ possible direction where freedom and bliss can be reached and found.

*Ardamir*, thank you for those extracts from the Letters! 
So... as it seems the West was chosen by Tolkien to be the _blessed_ only because of his personal aspirations?  

It is really strange to me, for in the folk-lore of our regions, the East is far from being associated with _evil_ and the simple reason (or at least one of them) is that from the east rises the Sun - the source of life and light - hence the source of _good_! 

Also, I find it strange to witness how the eastern peoples in Tolkien's ME are "labeled" as "evil", having in mind the real history and knowing well, as some of the participants in this thread have agreed too, that the English nation, as well as most the European peoples and nations originate from the East! *Maybe* it is becauese every such people that came to stay on the British Isles came once (in the depth of time and history) as conquerors, invadors and very often - opressors. The Romans did it, the Anglo-Saxons did it, the Vikings did it, the Normans did it... Even earlier - the celts did it! And considering how brutal those times were.... One can possibly find some explanation on this issue.

But, OF COURSE, I would never think that Tolkien ever meant anything related to skin-colour or religious affiliation etc.!!!


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## Inderjit S (Feb 15, 2004)

Just a question-where do you think Almaren the original abode of the Valar, in what may have been Middle-Earth or somewhere close to the proximity of Middle-Earth was? It was most problably in the 'East', as such things are reckoned.


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## Lhunithiliel (Feb 16, 2004)

That's true. But then... at those earliest stages of the shaping of the geology of ME, those territories seem to have been convenient enough for the Valar to settle. It was only after the destruxction of the Lamps that the scenery was o bitterly destroyed and changed that the Valar had to move to the West.

You know.. the more I think on this issue, the more I tend to accept the theory that the West was chosen as the _blessed_ because people (Men or Elves or Gods) fled to this particular direction from various disasters they seem to have experienced east of the West (if you understand what I mean  ). I mean.... sth. terrible happen to them... so they look for safety and salvation in a direction opposite to the one where the disaster came from.... Sounds reasonable?  

Though, the South would, too, be a suitable direction, wouldn't it!  I wonder why Tolkien (and the NE mythology) has applied this bi-directional pattern: _West-East_. Afetr all.... it's warmer and more pleasant in the South!!!


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## Lhunithiliel (Sep 24, 2004)

It's getting almost annoying - this question ... coming back in my mind so often ....  
But I still can't find a suitable theory to explain it!

If in this Tolkien's mythology reflected real history - the _Great Migration_ of the ancient peoples from the East - to the West - fine! It could be that!
But .... why might've that journey ever started?  The Eastern territories of the continents, even in ancient times, seem to have been vaster than the Western ones. There was enough land for all to live and develop and the climate.... well, also seems to have been favourable... They had their seas and oceans, too... 
Then, why would've those peoples ventured into the difficult migration across thousands of kilometers of land?

What if, I'm thinking.... to those ancient peoples, living once in the East, there came "news" - tales, legends .. etc.. from the West and about how different that estern world was and what treasures it had ...
This might've been an incentive to start the journey to the West.
The question is - *who* might've been the story-tellers from the West? In those times it was not common for people to travel too far from the regions of their birthplace - hence, every one who did go a bit further and came back, brought stories of the seen and his experiences and adventures in those unknown lands.... and it, I think, is so human to find the unknown attractive and worth exploring... Out of these stories, (IMO  ), the legends, tales and myths were once born....

Fine! Yet, this means that in ancient times, there must've been at some point a moment (or a period) of meeeting of people from the West with those from the East and perhaps that became a reson for many people to leave their homelands and take the long roads to the unknown West ... 

Just .... thinking ... with my morning coffee ...


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## Galadhwen (Sep 25, 2004)

pg 50 The Silmarillion; of the coming of the Elves


> Therefore Orome ... chose from among them [the elves] ambassadors who should go to Valinor ... and these were Ingwe, Finwe & Elwe ... And coming they were filled with awe by the glory and majesty of the Valar ... Then Orome brought them back to Cuivienen, and they spoke before their people, and counselled them to heed the summons of the Valar and remove into the West.


Does that help explain the migration from east to west?

On the holy West thing, the Celts believed _their_ Undying Lands to be islands in the Western Sea- don't quote me on this but I think in Beowulf the great king Schuld Schefing was sent westwards in his funeral barge  And to the Ancient Egyptians the gate to the Underworld was in the West.


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## Osric (Sep 25, 2004)

North and South are only defined by subdividing the areas between East and West into equal halves. You have to be quite well-travelled before you directly experience anything different about the North and the South. But in the British Isles the prevailing gulf stream southwesterly winds are kind, and the continental landmass northerlies and easterlies are cold and laden with snow.
Tolkien echoed the Norse concept in the Asgard-Midgard-Niflheim model of the North being associated with descending downwards and becoming colder, whilst the South was more upwards and warmer. (This at the same time as the essentially vertical World Tree linked the three worlds.)


The Sun may rise in the east, but I've never come across any reference therefore giving that direction an association with beneficence.

The the forefathers of the Anglo-Saxons (by their time thought of in the persons of the gods Ing and Woden) may have come from an easterly direction, but that was long ago... And even in the migration era, they were the peoples of a Europe that had seen -- or was then seeing -- the invasion of Attila the Hun from further east than they were.

I think the NW European attitude to the east can only tenuously be described by the dynamics of specific historical invasions. But... if the geography of the area means that any invasion tends to work its way westwards, are the last most resistant people, staunchest believers in 'the old ways' of the time always the most westerly? I'm not sure whether I'm onto something there or not.

_*--Os.*_


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## Lhunithiliel (Sep 27, 2004)

Osric said:


> The Sun may rise in the east, but I've never come across any reference therefore giving that direction an association with beneficence.


Which is strange, isn't it!



> The the forefathers of the Anglo-Saxons (by their time thought of in the persons of the gods Ing and Woden) may have come from an easterly direction, but that was long ago... And even in the migration era, they were the peoples of a Europe that had seen -- or was then seeing -- the invasion of Attila the Hun from further east than they were.


A lot of 'European' peoples were affected by that invasion, true! I doubt if there's a single European nation that would not hold a 'memory' of those events of the ancient past in their histories as well as in their respective myths, legends, tales etc, that further passed into the literary heritage of those nations. My people's history and legends, in addition, hold the memories of the invadors themselves, for ... well... our people came with those who invaded the European territories.  

However, what is intriguing to me ... though I still have not gone too much further in reading the Eddas, I am still extremely much surprised to find out that Northern people thought of their Gods (the Aesir) coming from Asia. This must be, IMHO, strongly related to those events from real history - the strong tide of new peoples coming from the East, obviously - bringing higher culture, hence - easily taken for 'Gods' by the more primitive population inhabitting the lands of the old continent.



> I think the NW European attitude to the east can only tenuously be described by the dynamics of specific historical invasions. But... if the geography of the area means that any invasion tends to work its way westwards, are the last most resistant people, staunchest believers in 'the old ways' of the time always the most westerly? I'm not sure whether I'm onto something there or not.
> 
> _*--Os.*_


"*... any* invasion, you are saying and ...I wonder... 
Would I be wrong to say that in fact *most* major invasions throughout human history were with this specific geography - East >> West?  

As for: "_are the last most resistant people, staunchest believers in 'the old ways' of the time always the most westerly? "_ - well now.... the Earth is round, so it very much depends where one is standing. The West shall always be West, but who lives there - will that not depend on who is in the East?


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## Gildor (Oct 19, 2004)

For the people of Central and Western Europe, the great sea has always been to the West, and in older days none knew what lay beyond it. This would seem to perfectly fit Tolkien's mythology, especially as he crafted it to suit that area of the world.


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## Lhunithiliel (Oct 23, 2004)

You know, Gildor... I find your observation a bit soothing the silly but burning question that has been troubling me! Thank you! 

If I am to sum up all the opinions I have gathered so far, they tend to be grouped in two main explanations:

1/ Because the West was unknown - therefore mysterious - for the people of ancient western/northern and even central Europe.
and
2/ Because the Sun sets to the West.

Yet ...  

1/ That's OK for Europe. 
Then why are most Gods and Gods' worlds in other non-European mythologies placed in the West, too?

2/ Could the course of the Sun - "East-to-West " - be the reason of the migration processes of the human population with the same 'geography'?


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## Astaldo (Oct 23, 2004)

Lhunithiliel said:


> 1/ That's OK for Europe.
> Then why are most Gods and Gods' worlds in other non-European mythologies placed in the West, too?


Have you thought the possibility that all that Prof. Tolkien were actually real and happened eons ago?



Lhunithiliel said:


> 2/ Could the course of the Sun - "East-to-West " - be the reason of the migration processes of the human population with the same 'geography'?


Why not? The flowers follow the course of the Sun why not people?


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## childoferu (Dec 22, 2010)

respectful thread bump


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## Firawyn (Jan 27, 2011)

Good bump! 

And wow! I forgot about Astaldo. Brilliant guy.

My answer would be simply...sun rises in the east, and sets in the west. The west show the end of the day, and likewise, the end of life on Middle Earth for the Elves and other...special people.

:*)


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## Mimzy (Feb 3, 2011)

Wasn't _Valhalla_ supposed to be in the west?


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## jallan (Apr 24, 2011)

Lhunithiliel said:


> For more than a year and a half I've been studying and researching the works of Tolkien (all that I have available)... and I have taken the worshiping of the West as granted.
> Yet, I often wonder why! Why the West?
> 
> I guess this has sth. to do with the very roots of Tolkien's mythology, based on the Norse and Celtic ancient lore...
> ...


Magical islands in the western seas inhabited by strange folk who might be called “elvish” is a commonplace of medieval Irish tales. 

Look at a map, the only large land known to England in the Middle Ages was Ireland. So of course England was mostly influenced by the North, and the East, and the South.

But the native language of Scotland (Scots Gaelic) is, of course, just a Scottish version of Irish Gaelic. And parts of Wales were at one time settled by the Irish.

That has nothing to do with Tolkien’s fictional writings. What influenced him were Irish traditions of “elvish” isles in the western seas.


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## Zalmoxis (Jan 9, 2012)

> Magical islands in the western seas inhabited by strange folk who might be called “elvish” is a commonplace of medieval Irish tales.



And not just in Irish or northern mythology. Even in the Greek and Roman mythology, the "Islands of the Blessed" are located beyond the Pillars of Hercules (Gibraltar). The idea that in the West, across the Ocean, there is a beautiful and blessed land, was a common myth in the conscience of most ancient and medieval European people.

Regarding the division of man, between _Man of the West_ and _Man of Darkness_ (these last being located to the south and east...). My personal belief is that here we see also an influence of Tolkien`s personal beliefs. Tolkien was a Christian, and Christianity used to be the dominant religion in the West and in Europe. The _Man of the West_, can be roughly equivalent to "Christians", while the other man are under the influence of Morgoth ("Satan").


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## Lantarion (Feb 13, 2014)

Great interpretation and conjecture here. I have little to add, except to remind us all of the fact that the definitions and meanings of the compass points N/E/S/W are *arbitrary*. In fact, designations of N/S and W/E are even used politically, some would say insidiously, to bias us towards a certain way of understanding welfare and geographical (national?) prestige. Let's not forget that, in _The Hobbit_, Tolkien indicates that Dwarvish maps place East at the top instead of North (as in Thráin's map).

At heart I think the West being sacred -- i.e. mysterious -- is a European mindset, Old World versus New World; a specific historical paradigm that Tolkien was undoubtedly aware of. An even more tintillating question is of "the South" and "the East"... Why are these convenient for inhabiting with "evil"? There's probably a thread about that somewhere so I won't follow that line of questioning any further here.


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## Wídlást (May 19, 2022)

I think that simply because that the west of the British and Irish Isles is the great sea, thus the myth, especially Irish ones, prefer to put a otherworldly land in the west. Then the tradition has much influence on Tolkien. 
(In addition, it seems happens all around the world--I'm from China, and our myth put the land like this in the east, because there's the great sea.


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## HALETH✒🗡 (May 19, 2022)

Wídlast said:


> (In addition, it seems happens all around the world--I'm from China, and our myth put the land like this in the east, because there's the great sea.


That's interesting! Can you give an example of such Chinese myth, please?


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## Wídlást (May 19, 2022)

HALETH✒🗡 said:


> That's interesting! Can you give an example of such Chinese myth, please?


Such as, in many tales, a sailor may wandering on the sea, then sees a beautiful isle on horizon, with palaces made from gold and silver, and with immortals live on it. It's named Penglai. Some times they can come to its shore, some times they can't reach it. In some tales, there are fruits which can heal the people who eat it and give them eternal youth, and the immortals called the Three Stars are said to live in there, one of happiness and good fortune, one of wealth and high social status, one of healthy and long life. And many others appear. It's said that some emperors in ancient times send out sailors to search for it, to find the elixir of immortality.
Sorry for my not-so-good English! I think it's understandable…maybe.


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## HALETH✒🗡 (May 20, 2022)

Wídlast said:


> Such as, in many tales, a sailor may wandering on the sea, then sees a beautiful isle on horizon, with palaces made from gold and silver, and with immortals live on it. It's named Penglai. Some times they can come to its shore, some times they can't reach it. In some tales, there are fruits which can heal the people who eat it and give them eternal youth, and the immortals called the Three Stars are said to live in there, one of happiness and good fortune, one of wealth and high social status, one of healthy and long life. And many others appear. It's said that some emperors in ancient times send out sailors to search for it, to find the elixir of immortality.
> Sorry for my not-so-good English! I think it's understandable…maybe.


Thank you very much for explaining! It looks like the mythology of your country is ver exciting. And your English is great.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (May 20, 2022)

Widlast, have there been film or television adaptations of stories about Penglai, such as the many about the Legend of the White Snake?

There is a recent film, "Celestial Track of Penglai"; I haven't watched it --yet-- but it appears to be about the White Snake story:





Or am I mistaken?


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## Wídlást (May 21, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Widlast, have there been film or television adaptations of stories about Penglai, such as the many about the Legend of the White Snake?
> 
> There is a recent film, "Celestial Track of Penglai"; I haven't watched it --yet-- but it appears to be about the White Snake story:
> 
> ...


Well for those, I've seldom watch films and television adaptations and I think the last time is six months ago…🤔So maybe I'm glad but can't help you at this : ( sorry! 

BTW, for the Penglai, I find a interesting thing just now: in a translation of a ancient Chinese poem, it's translated as 'the fairy hills'. 
This is interesting!


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## HALETH✒🗡 (May 21, 2022)

Wídlast said:


> BTW, for the Penglai, I find a interesting thing just now: in a translation of a ancient Chinese poem, it's translated as 'the fairy hills'.
> This is interesting!


Ah, it sounds like a Chinese Shire!


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## Wídlást (May 21, 2022)

HALETH✒🗡 said:


> Ah, it sounds like a Chinese Shire!


At fact, I think it's more like a Chinese Eressëa -- Shire is great, but it's like something more lofty and otherworldly. It make me feel interested because it reminds me of the Irish myth, the Sídhe, or something else like that. 
It reminds me the common things we share between different cultures, just as the tales which tells the people goes to a fairyland, and back, and find many years were pass.


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