# Where is Durins Ring?



## DurinsBane (Jul 31, 2002)

Where is the Ring of the Great Father of the Naugrim/Dwarves?


Legend has it that it lies deep with Durin in Kazad-dum. But is that the truth?

Did Balin Find it when he returned?

Did Sauron Find it?

Was it in the Keeping of the Balrog whew was cast down by Gandalf?

What do you think??


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## Ancalagon (Jul 31, 2002)

Hello DurinsBane and well met

Certainly there is little to no valid information concerning the Ring of Durin III. There are conflicting reports regarding the delvierty of the Ring to Durin III; some say it was given directly by Celembrimbor himself, others that it was Sauron who offered it as a gift to the King of Khazad Dum. It is wrongly assumed that this is the same ring as worn by Thror when he returned to Moria. Some say it is buried deep in Moria, others that it is again with Sauron, though how he came about it is ever a long debate. Personally I feel it remained with Durin III and was passed along to until it reached Durin V, but was buried with him and not given over to Durin VI. Quite possibly it was known that this Ring was tainted by Sauron and a decision to remove it from potentially falling into Saurons hands. It may also have been destroyed, because unlike the one, these lesser rings were capable of being destroyed. 

Without a great deal of research, which I will endeavor to look into later in HOME, I cannot give any further answer to your question. Hearsay and conjecture is the best I can offer!


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## Ceorl (Jul 31, 2002)

I dont have my books with me but I am certain that it was expressly stated in LotR that all the rings except the three were kept by Sauron or else devoured by the fires of the dragons.

Also it was Sauron or Annatar (Lord of Gifts as we was then known) who gave out the rings. When they were originally made in Hollin they were not neccessarily intended to be shared out amongst the races and were most probably all intended by Celebrimbor to be kept by the Elves. 

Remeber Gandalf's statement to Frodo in Bag End?

The nine he holds the three he has never touched and the five he has gathered to himself or else they are destroyed...

something like that anyway.


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## DurinsBane (Jul 31, 2002)

Very Good Ceorl,

He did state that the 5 were either his or destroyed, 

My question is that Durin the Deathless fell in Moria at the hands of Azog i beleive it was. Did he bring that ring with him to the grave?


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## Grond (Jul 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by DurinsBane _
> *Very Good Ceorl,
> 
> He did state that the 5 were either his or destroyed,
> ...


Where is this information from? Thror was murdered (beheaded and then hacked to pieces) by Azog but I don't remember any reference to Durin the Deathless. Thror's Ring was passed onto Thrain before Thror undertook his journeys. Thrain was captured by the Necromancer in Dol Guldor and his Ring was taken from him there. Evidence of this is found in several places. First there is this,


> _From The Fellowship of the Ring, The Council of Elrond,_
> The Seven are lost to us -- if Balin has not found the ring of Thror which was the last; naught has been heard of it since Thror perished in Moria. Indeed I may now reveal that it was partly in hope to find that ring that Balin went away.'
> 
> 'Balin will find no ring in Moria,' said Gandalf. `Thror gave it to
> Thrain his son, but not Thrain to Thorin. It was taken with torment from Thrain in the dungeons of Dol Guldur. I came too late.'


There is also this,


> _From Appendix A, Durin's Folk,_
> ...Years afterwards Thrór, now old, poor, and desperate, gave to his son Thráin the one great treasure he still possessed, the last of the Seven Rings, and then he went away with one old companion only, called Nár. Of the Ring he said to Thráin at their parting:
> 'This may prove the foundation of new fortune for you yet, though that seems unlikely. But it needs gold to breed gold.'


The is also this which follows a few pages after the above quote...


> Of this Ring something may be said here. It was believed by the Dwarves of Durin's Folk to be the first of the Seven that was forged; and they say that it was given to the King of Khazad-dûm, Durin III, by the Elven-smiths themselves and not by Sauron, though doubtless his evil power was on it, since he had aided in the forging of all the Seven. But the possessors of the Ring did not display it or speak of it and they seldom surrendered it until near death, so that others did not know for certain where it was bestowed. Some thought that it had remained in Khazad-dûm, in the secret tombs of the kings, if they had not been discovered and plundered; but among the kindred of Durin's Heir it was believed (wrongly) that Thrór had worn it when he rashly returned there. What then had become of it they did not know. It was not found on the body of Azog.49


And that is all I have to add to this thread.


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## Ceorl (Jul 31, 2002)

Ah the seven whoops, why did I say five? hmm never mind

Good quotes by the way, those are the ones I was thinking of


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## Ancalagon (Jul 31, 2002)

Can you prove that Thror's ring was without doubt the very same Ring that Durin III received? 



> Of this Ring something may be said here. It was believed by the Dwarves of Durin's Folk to be the first of the Seven that was forged; and they say that it was given to the King of Khazad-dûm, Durin III, by the Elven-smiths themselves and not by Sauron, though doubtless his evil power was on it, since he had aided in the forging of all the Seven. But the possessors of the Ring did not display it or speak of it and they seldom surrendered it until near death, so that others did not know for certain where it was bestowed. Some thought that it had remained in Khazad-dûm, in the secret tombs of the kings, if they had not been discovered and plundered; but among the kindred of Durin's Heir it was believed (wrongly) that Thrór had worn it when he rashly returned there. What then had become of it they did not know. It was not found on the body of Azog.



No-one can be certain that this was truly one of the 7. Who knows if it truly was the first of the 7; It could have been similar to The Ring of Barahir and only a family heirloom. Remember, it was believed by the Dwarves to be one of the 7, which leaves it open to speculation. In addition, it could be argued that little to no wealth was gained from this particular ring, so what evidence is there that this actually had power?


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## Grond (Aug 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ancalagon _
> *Can you prove that Thror's ring was without doubt the very same Ring that Durin III received?
> 
> No-one can be certain that this was truly one of the 7. Who knows if it truly was the first of the 7; It could have been similar to The Ring of Barahir and only a family heirloom. Remember, it was believed by the Dwarves to be one of the 7, which leaves it open to speculation. In addition, it could be argued that little to no wealth was gained from this particular ring, so what evidence is there that this actually had power? *


Ancky-pancky!!! Read my quotes provided in my previous post. The quote you provided shows that there was no certainty that the Ring possessed by Thrain was one of the seven but it is just as clear that the Wise (especially Gandalf) was totally convinced that it was Durin's Ring. 

As to your comments about little to no wealth being gained from it... the entire fortune of The Lonely Mountain was presumably based on this Ring, as was probably a large part of the fortune of Moria. I remind you of Thror's comments to Thrain when he gave the Ring to him, 
"This may prove the foundation of new fortune for you yet, though that seems unlikely. But it needs gold to breed gold."

The book makes it equally clear that, after their flight from Smaug, none of the three (Thror, Thrain or Thorin) had access to gold until Thorin reclaimed The Lonely Mountain; and by that time, the Ring was no longer in the possession of the Dwarves of Durin.


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## Gamil Zirak (Aug 1, 2002)

Doesn't Balin go to Moria to reclaim the kingdom and to find the ring there? I vaguely recall reading it in the FoTR some where. I'll look for that passage and post it.


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## Grond (Aug 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Gamil Zirak _
> *Doesn't Balin go to Moria to reclaim the kingdom and to find the ring there? I vaguely recall reading it in the FoTR some where. I'll look for that passage and post it. *


Gamil, your memory is correct but the outcome is the same. One of the reasons Balin returned to Moria was in hopes of finding Durin's Ring... but Gandalf reveals the truth of the matter to Gloin in the Council of Elrond.


> _from The Fellowship of the Ring, The Council of Elrond,_
> 'Still it might be well for all,' said Gloin the Dwarf, 'if all these
> strengths were joined, and the powers of each were used in league. Other rings there may be, less treacherous, that might be used in our need. The Seven are lost to us -- if Balin has not found the ring of Thror which was the last; naught has been heard of it since Thror perished in Moria. Indeed I may now reveal that it was partly in hope to find that ring that Balin went away.'
> 
> ...


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