# Relics in Middle-earth



## 1stvermont (Jan 26, 2020)

So I was thinking about what kind of relics do we see in middle-earth. Objects that are held in high honor and perhaps even contain powers or inspire those who hold them or are near them. Perhaps the shards of Narsil or the white tree of Gondor, or Gimli strand of Galadriel’s hair. I would love to hear of some examples of ancient cites or objects they in some way resembled relics.


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## Olorgando (Jan 26, 2020)

Before I go running off (at the mouth, or here keyboard) in a wrong direction, what of two possibilities (in my understanding) do you mean:

- relics "within" Middle-earth, which might include "archaeological sites" of abandoned cities like Osgiliath or Fornost, or Merry's horn from the hoard of Scatha the worm?
- or relics in the real world which one could imagine as being left over from Middle-earth?


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## 1stvermont (Jan 26, 2020)

Yeah I guess i would include "archaeological sites." I was looking more for what those alive in middle-earth the third age would consider objects similar to "relics"


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## Starbrow (Jan 26, 2020)

The Silmarillions come to mind. They certainly had a powerful effect on others.


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## Olorgando (Jan 27, 2020)

Starbrow said:


> The Silmarillions come to mind. They certainly had a powerful effect on others.


Not really anymore in the Third Age. Eärendil and his Silmaril, attached to the mast of his ship Vingilot, has now become a (the Evening) Star.
As to "archaeological" relics, these would, again in or at the end of the Third Age, been mostly Human (except for Khazâd-dûm). The main settlements of the Elves in Middle-earth had been those of the First Age, lost in the drowning of Beleriand at it end. The Grey Havens, Imladris, Thranduil's realm and Lothlórien were all still inhabited at the end of the Third Age. the last of these, apparently abandoned by the time of Arwen's passing, would probably look like a normal forest, if with *very* big and unusual trees.


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## JPMaximilian (Feb 13, 2020)

The following come to my mind: Gates of Argonath, Osgiliath, Amon Sûl, Durin's Axe, The Palantíri, The Elendilmir and Boromir's horn.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 26, 2020)

One small quibble: it sounds as if you are talking about "artifacts", that is, the work of human (or other) hands; "relics", at least in our world, is a word more usually associated with religious objects, specifically the remains of saints, especially their bones. It's perhaps a slight difference, but useful, I think; if we consider the terms that way, we see, for instance, that there does appear to be a certain reverence toward tombs, at least of the great -- the Hallows in Rath Dinen, Balin's tomb in Moria -- but not, as far as I can tell, a feeling that these remains contained an inherent power, certainly not in the same way they have been regarded in "our" world -- by the religious, I mean.

On the other hand, the Oaths of Cirion and Eorl took place before the tomb of Elendil, and even after its removal, the hill was either revered or feared, or both, by the Rohirrim, and called by them the Halifirien -- "Holy Mountain" -- so there may be more to it than Tolkien described.

Archeologically, there must have been a number of ruins, far more than are seen in the story. We do get some glimpses of these; someone, I think Alcuin, suggested that the hill in Hollin where the Fellowship fought the wargs was the site of Celebrimbor's Hall. I don't know, but from the description, I'd prefer to think it may have predated the coming of the Noldor. A "broken circle of boulder-stones" sounds "prehistoric" to me, anyway.

As for artifacts, the one which has most fascinated and puzzled me over the years is the Stone of Erech: why on Middle Earth would someone go to the trouble of transporting a 12-14 foot diameter stone all the way from Numenor, only to set it up, basically in the middle of nowhere? Tolkien moved its location, and changed its purpose, several times, but the final result still leaves unanswered questions. It remains -- for me, at least -- one of the most mysterious objects in Middle Earth.


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## JPMaximilian (Feb 26, 2020)

While religious relics are certainly a type of relic the word is not used exclusively as such. Here are two examples of using relic in a sentence that do not have a religious context:



Source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/relic


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 26, 2020)

True enough, yet as I said, I think the distinction is a useful one, in the context of this discussion.

And perhaps "relict" would be another useful one, for Middle Earth!


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## JPMaximilian (Feb 26, 2020)

S-e-S: Interesting point about the stone of Erech. I agree the Hill of Erech is an odd place for Isildur to leave such a large and mysterious stone. Perhaps if more was known about the history of the hill itself...


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 26, 2020)

Maybe, but it was the Stone which seemed to tax Tolkien's mind, in the drafts. I've thought of writing an article discussing the changes it went through; confusingly, it's covered in two of the HoLOTR volumes, the later of which has an earlier draft than the ones in the previous volume -- IIRC.

I believe in the very earliest relevant draft, it was going to be a palantir, which was the original justification for Aragorn's journey there. I'm not near my library, so can't check to see if this predated the appearance of the Orthanc stone, but I believe so.


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## Phantom718 (Feb 26, 2020)

Maybe they were in the middle of moving the Stone somewhere, realized it was just too damn cumbersome and said "screw it" and just left it where it is


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## JPMaximilian (Feb 27, 2020)

Phantom718 said:


> Maybe they were in the middle of moving the Stone somewhere, realized it was just too damn cumbersome and said "screw it" and just left it where it is



The stone got its name from the Hill of Erech. Isildur put the stone on the hill and made the tribes swear an oath upon it. The hill was a prominent place (but not inaccessible like a mountaintop) and the stone served as a reminder to the tribes of their oath. Perhaps Isildur was concerned they would eventually break their oath (which of course they did) and a giant stone placed in a prominent place would help remind them not to break it. To me it makes sense and isn't that mysterious.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 27, 2020)

Maybe, but a round stone of 14' diameter seems a bit of overkill. 
I'd think a tastefully dressed slab would be sufficient.

Mysteries: origin, in Numenor -- or was it? The Palantiri were made by the Elves -- possibly by Feanor himself. How about the Erech stone? Purpose, in Numenor; Reason for transport to ME -- surely not as a mere "oath marker", there being plenty of stones usable at their destination, and they weren't certain about where the ships would end up, in any event. How about some power inherent in the stone? If so, Tolkien never said.

Other mysteries have to do with the drafts, which I'm not able to consult at the moment, but I do know that one of the drafts has Isildur placing the stone on or near the beach, as a memorial of the landfall. In another, it was farther inland, as a boundary marker. In fact, at one point, it was to predate Isildur. I have my own theory about that, but it will have to wait.

To me, still very mysterious. 🤔


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## JPMaximilian (Feb 27, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Maybe, but a round stone 14' diameter would to be a bit of overkill.
> I'd think a tastefully dressed slab would be sufficient.
> 
> Mysteries: origin, in Numenor -- or was it? The Palantiri were made by the Elves -- possibly by Feanor himself. How about the Erech stone? Purpose, in Numenor; Reason for transport to ME -- surely not as a mere "oath marker", there being plenty of stones usable at their destination, and they weren't certain about where the ships would end up, in any event. How about some power inherent in the stone? If so, Tolkien never said.
> ...



Maybe, but...


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 27, 2020)

Lots of maybes, _and _ buts, with the Stone!


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## JPMaximilian (Feb 27, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Lots of maybes and buts, with the Stone!



 I think you pose interesting questions. I'll walk my statement back some and agree with you in that WHY they brought it from Numenor in the first place is a mystery. I agree I don't think they would have brought it with the intent of using it as an oath marker, even if it seems it was used as such after they arrived. Once the stone was in ME, it makes sense they'd pick a large, and unique stone rather than one from the surrounding area that would more or less blend in or be more easily forgotten.

Your question of it having some sort of power is also interesting. The large palantiri that were transported would surely be "worth it" because of the power they possessed. Perhaps the stone in some form or fashion empowered Isildur to place the curse on those who swore upon it unfaithfully. Of course this is pure speculation on my part.

The Numenorians did have experience moving large spherical stones (the Osgiliath stone and the Amon-sul stone). As far as I know the large palantir were described non-specifically as being unable to be moved by one man. So while they might not have been as big as the stone of Erech (although they could have been) they were not strangers to transporting large stones. In any case, they weren't known for going small. The Argonath for example.

I think part of what makes stories interesting is not just what is said but also what is unsaid. Sometimes a mystery makes things more enjoyable. For example, I'd like to know what happened to Durin's Axe. By not knowing I can speculate on what might have happened. Presumably it was re-lost after Balin and his followers were all killed, but I'd like to think that at some point when the Dwarves retook Moria in the fourth age they were able to find Durin's Axe once more.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 27, 2020)

JPMaximilian said:


> the stone in some form or fashion empowered Isildur to place the curse on those who swore upon it unfaithfully. Of course this is pure speculation on my part.


"But" it does make sense! It would go far to explain how Isildur managed to "curse" them to a living death; he was, after all, as far as we know, a "normal" man, otherwise, however exalted or noble (which didn't prevent him from succumbing to the Ring).

On the other hand, oaths seem to have been especially binding in Middle Earth -- almost _physically _so, it seems, compared to our world. At least they were taken as inviolable -- think of the Oath of Feanor, for example

On the third hand, did Feanor swear _on, _or _by, _the Silmarils? I'm hampered by not being near my library, to check the texts.

As for the Palantiri, I thought I remembered the large ones as being about three feet in diameter, but that may be something I "supplied" out of my own mind. In any case, the weight/diameter ratio would have been geometric, so the one at Erech would be _very _heavy. But as you say, those guys did things in a big way at times. There's an older thread here, discussing the size and capacity of the ships involved; I'll try to find it.

BTW, there's been argument, over the years, as to the size of the Erech stone, caused by the wording in the text. Some sites, such as the usually reliable Tolkien Gateway, give it as six feet in diameter. My argument against that is that Aragorn standing next to a three-foot-high stone wouldn't make for a very awe-inspiring sight!




JPMaximilian said:


> I think part of what makes stories interesting is not just what is said but also what is unsaid. Sometimes a mystery makes things more enjoyable.


Definitely agree -- so did Tolkien, who commented on the "unexplored vistas".

_And it was said that ever after, if any man looked in that Stone, unless he had a great strength of will to turn it to other purpose, he saw only two aged hands withering in flame._

Did Aragorn ever look? Or other Fourth Age kings or Stewards? Did it remain on Denethor's breast, like Orcrist with Thorin, or was it removed? Guess we'll never know.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Feb 27, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> As for the Palantiri, I thought I remembered the large ones as being about three feet in diameter, but that may be something I "supplied" out of my own mind. In any case, the weight/diameter ratio would have been geometric, so the one at Erech would be _very _heavy. But as you say, those guys did things in a big way at times. There's an older thread here, discussing the size and capacity of the ships involved; I'll try to find it.



Found it in Unfinished Tales :



> The "lore of the Stones" is now forgotten, and can only be partly recovered by conjecture and from things recorded about them. They were perfect spheres, appearing when at rest to be made of solid glass or crystal deep black in hue. At smallest they were about a foot in diameter, but some, certainly the Stones of Osgiliath and Amon Sûl, were much larger and could not be lifted by one man. Originally they were placed in sites suitable to their sizes and intended uses. standing on low round tables of black marble in a central cup or depression, in which they could at need be revolved by hand. They were very heavy but perfectly smooth, and would suffer no damage if by accident or malice they were unseated and rolled off their tables. They were indeed unbreakable by any violence then controlled by men though some believed that great heat, such as that of Orodruin, might shatter them, and surmised that this had been the fate of the Ithil-stone in the fall of Barad-dûr.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 27, 2020)

Thanks! Though that, as I feared, doesn't give the size of the larger stones. However, it seems clear that all were small enough to be placed in a depression in a "table" -- that would seem to mitigate against something very large. Something over three feet would appear -- to me at least -- to be unlikely, though I admit I have no definitive proof of this.

I'd say that about three feet would fit the description of being too heavy for _one _man to lift; anything larger would I think, call for mention of several men.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Feb 27, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Thanks! Though that, as I feared, doesn't give the size of the larger stones. However, it seems clear that all were small enough to be placed in a depression in a "table" -- that would seem to mitigate against something very large. Something over three feet would appear -- to me at least -- to be unlikely, though I admit I have no definitive proof of this.
> 
> I'd say that about three feet would fit the description of being too heavy for _one _man to lift; anything larger would I think, call for mention of several men.


Yeah I didn't see actual dimensions but it did say the smaller ones were about a foot in diameter (does it use metrics in non-US texts?) and the larger ones couldn't be lifted by a one man.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 27, 2020)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> (does it use metrics in non-US texts?)


Good grief, I hope not! Would _leagues _be changed to _kilometers_?


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## Alcuin (Feb 28, 2020)

I’m just passing through today, but this caught my eye as I was preparing to post on another thread that appeared in the Tolkien Monthly Newsletter. (Brilliant, that newsletter!)

The Stone of Erech was indeed in the drafts supposed to be a palantír. As the story was rewritten, however, it became “merely” a large stone brought by Isildur from Númenor; exactly how large was in fact the first thread in which I posted at TTF many years ago. 

After many years of reflection (which is no reflection on anyone whose time of reflection on the subject is shorter or longer), Tolkien describes the stone as “the height of a man, though its half was buried in the ground.” That would indicate that 6 or more feet tall: in _Unfinished Tales_ in the section on “Númenórean Linear Measures”, Tolkien says the Dúnedain considered “man-high” to be two _rangar_, which works out to be six feet four inches in Imperial (and American) measure. So the thing was huge – and heavy! 

That brings us to the discussion in this thread between Squint-eyed Southerner and JPMaximilian (a belated welcome to you, JPMaximilian) about why anyone would bother hauling such a large artifact in such difficult conditions so far inland. Consider: 
the Stone unquestionably came to Middle-earth from Númenor;
because it was at least 12, maybe 13 feet (3½–4 meters) in diameter, it was extremely large, heavy, and cumbersome for transport by ship;
the Faithful who were fleeing Númenor were in the harbor of Rómenna essentially under siege after being driven from their homes, mostly in western Númenor;
getting things aboard ship might have required smuggling; and besides
Isildur was being hunted for stealing a fruit of Nimloth, the White Tree of Númenor, was terribly wounded, and though they might not have known who stole the fruit, all the Faithful, especially members of Elendil’s household, were suspect.
So what could be the origin of the Black Stone of Erech?

I have two propositions that I will offer today; others may come to mind as you ponder the questions yourselves. 
The Stone might be from Meneltarma. Meneltarma is unquestionably a volcano, and volcanoes are the source of _obsidian_, a volcanic glass that is often deep black in color. Meneltarma was also the “holy mountain” of Númenor and the only site of the public worship of Eru in the history of the Dúnedain: that would make it worth the effort and risk of transporting it to Middle-earth, particularly if the stone was originally from the hallowed summit of the mountain.
The stone might be a gift of the Eldar to the Dúnedain brought from the Uttermost West. Its exact origins are perhaps buried deep in Time, and lost or forgotten by the Dúnedain of the late Third Age. In any event, it was likely from Valinor itself (unless Tol Eressëa was also volcanic), and so hallowed by its origin. Again, this would explain the effort and risk the Númenórean Faithful took in its transport to Middle-earth.
Both of those explanations also provide a “reason” for the sacred nature of any oath taken on the stone, and why such an oath would be binding. 

As for why the thing was brought so far inland, I suggest that, like Elendil’s tomb on the north side of the White Mountains, it was very nearly the center of the original kingdom of Gondor.

As for “relics in Middle-earth”, I think the Barrow-swords, though made in Middle-earth during the second millennium of the Third Age, certainly qualify. The palantíri, of immense age, do, too. There is also the sword Narsil, reforged as Andúril; the Ring of Barahir, given to him by Finrod, made in Eldamar in the distant past, given to Arwen by Aragorn as a sign of their betrothal (an engagement ring, if you will); the library in Minas Tirith, including the scroll of Isildur and probably books and scrolls written in Númenor; the Rings of Power, even shorn of their properties after the destruction of the One Ring (if any survived the ruin of Barad-dûr); and the Sceptre of Annúminas, which Appendix A describes as “perhaps the most ancient work of Men’s hands now preserved in Middle-earth.” To this we can add both Elendilmir, the one Aragorn wore at his coronation, and the one Isildur lost that Saruman discovered and hid, a thing of immense beauty and age; the sword Orcrist, which remained in the Lonely Mountain; the short sword (or long dagger) Sting, which can be argued to have been left with Sam when Frodo departed; the Elven-cloaks of Lórien, as well as the boats, which remained one on the east shore and one on the west shore of Nen Hithoel; and we could go on.


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## Aukwrist (Aug 28, 2021)

1stvermont said:


> Yeah I guess i would include "archaeological sites." I was looking more for what those alive in middle-earth the third age would consider objects similar to "relics"


The Winged Crown of the Kings of Gondor, perhaps ?


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