# Lithlad?



## Uminya (Nov 9, 2005)

There is a reference to *Lithlad* in LotR that I am curious about. The name is mentioned only once (checked the index) and is also not listed on the map. As obscure geographical reference is one of my favorite aspects of Tolkien literature, I thought about it and wondered where exactly "Lithlad" is.

My initial thought was the area north of Nurn, east of Barad-Dur and south of the Ered Lithui. However, the map (CRRT) seems to indicate that all of that area south and east of Gorgoroth is Nurnen. Did CRRT blunder and forget to include Lithlad, or is there something more to this, and Lithlad lies further east, perhaps?

Thoughts? References? Utter silence?


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## Ithrynluin (Nov 9, 2005)

In _The History of Middle-earth VII: The Treason of Isengard_ it is said that Lithlad, the Plain of Ash, 



> appears once in L[ot]R, though for some reason the name was not entered on either of the maps published in L[ot]R; it is found however on the First Map (p. 309) and subsequently. The plain of Lithlad lay south of Ered Lithui, the Ash Mountains, away to the east of Barad-Dur; there would thus seem no reason for Frodo and Sam ever to have come to it, as seems to be implied in this outline.



The late Karen Wynn Fonstad, in her _Atlas of Middle-earth_, places Lithlad north of the Sea of Nurnen, which is obviously a blunder given what CT says on the matter, and since it is perhaps curious how an ash plain could be found at this place given the close proximity of fresh water.

I've attached Fonstad's map below, and noted in red letters where Lithlad is supposed to be.


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## Arthur_Vandelay (Nov 9, 2005)

Then again--doesn't volcanic ash usually make soil more fertile?


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## Walter (Nov 10, 2005)

But your entry on Fonstads map isn't entirely congruent with the map on p. 309 you mention, Ithy...


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## Ithrynluin (Nov 10, 2005)

I would have put the red letters more to the left but there was no space!


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## Uminya (Nov 10, 2005)

Well then it leaves to wonder if by "ashen plain" it means "is now ashen" to say that it is an ash-field, common near volcanos, or that is "was ashen" and has since reverted to a natural state. Though I suspect that since Nurnen was the cropland of Mordor, it ought to be formerly ashen, so as to now be arable.


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## Walter (Nov 10, 2005)

Ithrynluin said:


> I would have put the red letters more to the left but there was no space!


To the left?

CT has it east of the eastern river that feeds the Sea of Nurnen....


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## Arvedui (Nov 10, 2005)

Ithy was holding the Atlas upside down while typing...


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## baragund (Nov 10, 2005)

The description as an ashen plain could be a reference to industrial waste and pollution.


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## Ithrynluin (Nov 13, 2005)

Walter said:


> To the left?
> 
> CT has it east of the eastern river that feeds the Sea of Nurnen....



But then again, how final was this 'First Map'? The Sea of Nurnen seems awfully close to Barad-dur, whereas on other maps it is quite some distance removed, is it not? The thing is, Mordor on the First Map seems a bit out of sync with the later Mordor.

That is why I followed the description itself, rather than an early image, placing Lithlad 'south of the Ash Mountains, away to the east of Barad-Dur'.


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## Akhôrahil (Dec 31, 2021)

The First Map of the Lord of the Rings was not "final". Several elements in the geography of Mordor were different from The Second Map of the Lord ofThe Rings, which was redrawn by Christopher Tolkien in The War of the Ring on p. 434 and p. 435. On The First Map of The Lord of the Rings there is no longer second mountain spur that branches off from the Ered Lithui (Ash Mountains) in the east of the shorter mountain spur on whose end Barad-dûr is located. In addition, there is no mountain spur that branches off from the middle of the western part of Ephel Dúath (Mountains of Shadow) and that almost meets the previously mentioned longer second mountain spur to almost encircle the plain of Gorgoroth. However, the label "Lithlad" is already in the fourth map square from the left of the five map squares that contain the northern part of Mordor and is already just to the south of the Ered Lithui. In addition the sea of Nurnen was a bit further to the north-west on the First Map of The Lord of The Rings. The label "Lithlad" is no longer included on The Third Map of The Lord of The Rings (that was drawn by J.R.R. Tolkien) and is no longer included on The General Map of Middle-earth (that was drawn by Christopher Tolkien), which was published in earlier editions of The Lord of the Rings. If Lithlad would be placed in the same position as on The Second Map of The Lord of the Rings, it would be east of the second longer mountain spur that branches off from the Ered Lithui and that is east of the shorter mountain spur on whose end Barad-dûr is located. The location of Lithlad on the map on the Lithlad page in the Encylopedia of Arda in between the shorter mountain spur and the longer mountain spur does not correspond to the placement of the label Lithlad on The First Map of The Lord of the Rings and on The Second Map of The Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien. The placment of Lithlad on the north-western shore of the sea of Nurnen by Karen Wynn Fonstad in her Atlwas of Middle-earth also does not correspond to the placmenent by J.R.R. Tolkien. This is odd, because Karen Wynn Fonstad mentions The Treason of Isengard as one of her sources for Mordor redrawings of The First Map of The Lord of the Rings were published in The Treason of Isengard.


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