# Balrog size



## Halandor

In the movie the balrog is a towering demon, but in the Sil and Book of Lost Tales ( the fall of Gondolin ), some elves kill Balrogs in single combat ( ex Ecthelion vs. Gothmog), i was just wondering your opinions on this


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## Ståle

Err....incredibly powerful Elves perhaps? Glorfindel and Ecthelion was Elves of the Two Trees(I think) so they were far more powerful than the common Silvan or Sindar Elf.


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## Thorin

I think HoME Vol X "Morgoth's Ring", mentions in the footnotes that the Balrogs were about twice the height of the elves. The average height of the elves was between 6-7 feet tall.

That would make the Balrog's about 14 feet tall. Not the 25 foot tall towering inferno we saw in the movie.


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## Grond

I would agree with Thorin. It was deemed that Morgoth was 18 or so feet tall based on his battle with Fingolfin. This was arrived at by figuring out the relative heighth and weight needed to pin Fingolfin down with his foot and not crush the entire body. 

Shirley, Melkor wouldn't allow his train of Balrogs to tower over him. I would imagine they were slightly smaller than he. I also remember a detailed description given in this forum concerning this issue with a link to a research paper which explained a probable balrog size based on calculations from the Balin's Tomb chapter and the passage through Moria section. I'll see if I can find them and post again.


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## Grond

This link gives you all the information you could ever want to know about Balrogs and was originally provided by my good friend and moderator, Talierin. Thanks Tal.

Also, please be adivsed that this thread will be merged with the older thread by the end of the day. Please take note of the older thread on the same subject called *Balrogs...*

Oops, I forgot the link http://greenbooks.theonering.net/guest/files/080101.html


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## baraka

> It was deemed that Morgoth was 18 or so feet tall based on his battle with Fingolfin.


Grond, Oh Hammer of the Underground, you were there, how come you don't know the height of your master?


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## Grond

Oops again! Melkor was 18 feet tall. I know! I was there!


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## Maedhros

*Link*

Hmmmm. Grond, are you sure that's is the correct link?


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## Grond

I have corrected the link and it now works. Sorry about that.


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## Cian

The Balrog in the Lost Tales (very early mythology) was described as being twice Glorfindels stature. I don't recall a note in Morgoths Ring to this however. But then again I can't recall what I had two nights ago for supper either


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## Cian

No wait! I had Italian!!!


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## Úlairi

Personally, I like the Balrogs being 25 feet or so, the fact that they should or could not be taller than their master I don't think really matters. The main thing was that they were subject to the will of Morgoth, their height did not matter. Oh well, if Tolkien said that they were 14 or so feet then they were. But I would prefer them to be taller.


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## Ancalagon

I suppose when you consider the speed, agility, nimbleness and strength of Elves who have walked in the footsteps of the strongest powers of Arda, you can begin to understand their ability in close combat with what would appear to be more superior; a Balrog. 

Yet, Balrogs would to me seem, hulking, slow and more dependent on fear and weapons in battle. This in itself may be suitable against the majority of races, though not so in this particular case. Balrogs themselves don't fight as often as one might think, they seem to hold positions of command, driving Orc hordes before them. So when it comes to a close quarter battle with Elves as powerful as Glorfindel or Ecthelion, I can begin to appreciate that their skills would be more than matched.


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## Bucky

>>>In the movie the balrog is a towering demon

Although I enjoyed the movie more than I enjoyed nit-picking every change, 
I did think that the Balrog was a bit too solid. Here is a 'being' that is supposed to be encased in stone for 5400 years, & it's just smashing through stone passageways in the movie.

I also don't picture Balrogs being slow & hulking.
They could change 'shape' in the sense that the darkness & fire grew or diminished in proportion to each other. I get the idea from that that Balrogs were sort've half spirit & half 'physical being' at the same time.

On the slow point:
1. 'Fire raced down swifter than Balrogs'. in the Battle of Sudden Flame.
It doesn't say 'faster than Bucky' for example (if you saw me run, you'd get it...)
2. 'Another Balrog' comes up behind Fingon & casts a whip of fire about him while he's fighting Gothmog in the 5th Battle. That sounds sneaky, not 'ponderous', hulking or slow to me. 
3. Durin's Bane must've high-tailed it out of Beleriand pretty quick when the Host of the West showed up....
4. Morgoth's cry & the Balrogs descending on Ungoliant. She woulda eaten Morgoth & the Silmarils if they took too long.


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## Bucky

34 minutes to read that guy's article.

And I came to the same conclusion as him in about 4990 less words:

If a Balrog had wings, why did they keep falling?

But, I must say it was interesting reading.

And, I learned that there is a SOLID form in the middle of the darkness/Fire, although what he bases that on are VERY early stories....

I also noted he misquotes The Silmarillion on 'Winged speed' (no 'winged' in my copies) & also the story of Ecthelion vs Gothmog as being in Unfinished Tales; it's not.


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## Úlairi

Hey Bucky, the points on the Balrogs are great. But Gandalf in The Bridge of Khazad-dum hears the Balrog a mile away. I have come to the conclusion that some Balrogs were significantly larger than others.


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## Grond

If the Balrog was so huge, how on earth did he ever fit into the Balin's burial chamber? It was not a huge area and yet he came in through a double door.


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## Úlairi

Grond, this theory is hypothetical but Balrogs were Maia. Most Maia could shift shape. Perhaps the Balrog shrunk itself to get into smaller places and enlarged itself for battles like the one it had with Gandalf?


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## Grond

The only Maia ever credited with shape shifting was Sauron during his battle with Huan. He changed shape but I don't remember it saying he grew greater in stature, else he would have simply transformed himself into a 500 foot dragon and crushed Huan.

Balrogs lacked this skill; otherwise they would certainly have used it to transform themselves into HUGE beings that could not be overcome. The balrog that slew Ecthelion was said to be twice his height. An average great-elf was deemed between 7 and 8 feet tall. One can then construe that a balrog would be on the average 14 - 16 feet tall. Please read the link I provided. It gives a scientific analysis as to the size of balrogs and whether they had wings or not.


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## Rangerdave

*height?*

If a Balrog is a Maiar (sp?) then would'nt the height and other physical aspects be variable? Most of the other maiar seem to be able to assume various shapes, or at least until they screw it up by forging rings.

RD

PS Istari don't count, they were ordered to appear as aged men

r


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## Ancalagon

Maia who abide in middle-earth must choose a form with which they clothe themselves. However, although they choose this form as they leave their 'spiritual realm', outside the confines of Arda, it does not say that they would continuously change shape while in middle-earth. 

That is not to say they can't, though for the majority, there is no evidence to support shape-changing to be the norm. The assumed form seems to be the only form, unless they are killed within that form and return having assumed a new form! Confused? Me Too!


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## Úlairi

Yes Grond, I am aware of this fact, but I believe that Maia could return to their spiritual form without being slain and then can resume a new physical form.


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## Maedhros

*Elf-Lord*



> An average great-elf was deemed between 7 and 8 feet tall.


Ok. I'm an elf-lord. I'm called Maedhros the Tall, and I'm not that tall. Were did you get this information? I need actual references from a book.


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## Úlairi

Maehdros, Grond gets most of his answers to threads from HoME, which I am pretty sure he has the whole series of. I am reading the first one and I have read portions of the last. But there is a whole section that I have heard of in Morgoth's Ring about the height of creatures, I have actually seen it and it is very good. Grond was likely to get his answers from there.


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## Bucky

On Balrogs taking shape:

1. Evil angelic beings seem to lose some of their 'powers' through their evil nature.
Morgoth could never change shape after Ungoliant, or 'remained' in that shape as The Silmarillion says.
No doubt he lost some power due to filling his creatues with his evil power as The Sil says.
Sauron could never take a fair shape after the drowning of Numenor.
Saruman lost his powers to a large degree through lust for power.

2. Read Valaquenta. Balrogs were among the first Maiar seduced by Melkor & 'became most like him'. They certainly appear to be bound to that form.

3. The only time a Balrog changes is when Durin's Bane falls with Gandalf & ends up in the water. "His fire was extinguished, but he became a thing of slime, stronger than a strangling snake" Gandalf says.


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## Cian

Certainly "The Fall Of Gondolin" from BoLT can be used to see (generally) how tall the demon in BoLT was, but what about a "LotR style" demon? Tolkien even wrote that the duel with Glorfindel and the Demon may need revision. Would the revision have included any height reference? maybe, maybe not. 

The LotR draft description is significantly later than BoLT (and the "new" Fall Of Gondolin never got far enough to tell). In the LotR drafts Tolkien writes of the Balrog: 

_"A figure strode to the fissure, no more than man-high yet terror seemed to go before it."_

Next JRRT pencils a note to himself against the description of the Balrog (italics as published):

"Alter description of Balrog. It seemed to be of man's shape, but its form could not be plainly discerned. It _felt_ larger than it looked." JRRT

So JRRT's Balrog now (at least this one in this draft) is man-high and "felt" larger than it looked, hmmm ... but even that must be held of less "revelation" here, against the ultimate language used for publication in FotR, in which Tolkien introduces the demon as _"... of man-shape maybe, yet greater;"_ and the (possible) debate about what is meant exactly when the creature draws itself up to a great height.

Hmmm again?


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## Bucky

What else is there to say after that?

Just, who knows what Tolkien's finished Silmarillion would've looked liked.

But, he'd be 110 if he was alive & probably wouldn't have gotten to revising the Fall of Gondolin & the battle between Glorfindel & the Balrog yet.......


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## Thorin

> _Originally posted by Cian _
> *
> The LotR draft description is significantly later than BoLT (and the "new" Fall Of Gondolin never got far enough to tell). In the LotR drafts Tolkien writes of the Balrog:
> 
> "A figure strode to the fissure, no more than man-high yet terror seemed to go before it."
> 
> So JRRT's Balrog now (at least this one in this draft) is man-high and "felt" larger than it looked, hmmm ... *



Notice though, Cian, that Tolkien's impression of the Balrog was _getting smaller_ not larger then his original concept....Though it doesn't sound like Tolkien kept his later image, we can at least deduce that he was not increasing the size of the Balrog from Gondolin to LotR...Hence, PJ's 25 foot movie balrog is definitely foreign to the size of what Tolkien's balrog was.


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## Cian

Indeed Thorin (who is this "PJ" anyway?), from A to B the demon seemingly gets smaller, and the note to "alter" the description of the creature talks about its "feel" (pure Tolkien!); nor does the "introductory" language in FotR _"... of man-shape maybe, yet greater"_ produce a gigantic image in my minds eye anyway, "gigantic" like I've seen in some calendars.


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## Úlairi

PJ = Peter Jackson (the director of LoTR).

On this topic of symbols and abbreviations, what does IMO mean?


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## Cian

My PJ remark was a little tongue in cheek, but thanks anyway Ulairi (sometimes even I don't get my attempted "humor").

I think IMO means "in my opinion", at least I hope so ... that's what I use it to mean anyway


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## Úlairi

> _Originally posted by Thorin _
> *
> 
> Notice though, Cian, that Tolkien's impression of the Balrog was getting smaller not larger then his original concept....Though it doesn't sound like Tolkien kept his later image, we can at least deduce that he was not increasing the size of the Balrog from Gondolin to LotR...Hence, PJ's 25 foot movie balrog is definitely foreign to the size of what Tolkien's balrog was. *



I completely agree Thorin. But this brings us back to the debate whether or not Balrogs could either vary in size or even 'change' their own size. Is it possible that the Balrog 're-shaped' itself to make it a harder physical match between him and Gandalf for Gandalf?


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## Bucky

Kind of like Dr Evil & Miny Me......


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## Úlairi

I'm being serious Bucky. But it was a good one.


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