# Did Gandalf walk with Eru after slaying the Balrog?



## Athelas (May 3, 2003)

If he walked "out of thought and time," that would put him in the realm of Iluvatar, n'est-ce pas? I used to believe that his spirit had gone to Valinor and returned. Was he chatting up the big guy?


----------



## BlackCaptain (May 3, 2003)

I think he would be in the Halls of Mandos. Not even the Vala cold go back into the Void when they came down to Arda


----------



## Tar-Elenion (May 3, 2003)

When Gandalf 'passed out of thought and time' his spirit left the World (read universe) and in fact went to Eru Iluvatar, who enhanced him and sent him back.


----------



## Elendil3119 (May 3, 2003)

> Then darkness took me; and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell. Naked *I was sent back* -- for a brief time, until my task is done.


----------



## Lantarion (May 4, 2003)

Um. Good quote, Elendil, but could you be a bit more specific? 
I would say that "back" is Aman generally.. But probably the Halls of Mandos, I agree, because that's where people go to die, or to not-die (like Beren ). 
And as Aman was not of Arda at that time, I think that by "out of space and time" means Aman, not the Void.


----------



## Mithlond (May 4, 2003)

Letter #156


> He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. 'Naked i was sent back - for a time, until my task is done'. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time'.



Aman and Middle-earth are both part of the physical _embodied_ world, even though Aman is somewhat removed. So _passed out of thought and time_ must mean passing out of the embodied world completely, which is the void(universe).


----------



## Arvedui (May 5, 2003)

You can find other thoughts on this matter in this thread:
Gandalf's death in Moria - An afterthought?


----------



## Gil-Galad (May 5, 2003)

Well,Manwe appointed Gandalf's task to him.So I think he is the one who can decide what happens to Gandalf after the battle with the Balrog.As we know a Maia cannot die,so there is no reason of going to the Void.Gandalf just went to Aman where Manwe decided to return him to Middle-earth.
And I still think that not everything that is shown in PJ's movies is written in the books.


----------



## Tar-Elenion (May 5, 2003)

According to JRRT in Letter 156 (which is where I drew the information contained in my early post from), Gandalf did not go to Aman after his 'death', and it was not Manwe who sent him back. Mithlond thoughtfully quoted the relevant postion of that Letter above.


----------



## Gil-Galad (May 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Tar-Elenion _
> *According to JRRT in Letter 156 (which is where I drew the information contained in my early post from), Gandalf did not go to Aman after his 'death', and it was not Manwe who sent him back. Mithlond thoughtfully quoted the relevant postion of that Letter above. *


Yes,I saw it.But that was my opinion.Somehow I cannot explain to myself how he would go to the Void.



> Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time'.


He actually doesnot know by whom he is sent and where.He is just supposing.


----------



## Confusticated (May 6, 2003)

To Paraphrase that quote:

_Who sent Gandalf back? Not the Valar... they are within Arda and Gandalf left it._

Do you agree Gil-Galad?

Or are you just not taking this statement as fact because it was Tolkien's idea not published by him?

All of the Silmarillion is Tolkien's idea, now why take that for fact but not what he said was so in his letters?


----------



## Arvedui (May 6, 2003)

Just to further clarify this: There is more in Eä than Arda and the Void. Gandalf does not nescesarry enter the void even if he leaves Arda. As he said, he 'strayed out of thought and time.'
IMO, he is taken to Eru, and given enhanced powers so that he can counter the Treason of Saruman.
Olorin is a Maia, and the ability to give him enhanced powers does not reside with Manwë. He is an offspring of the mind of Ilúvatar, and therefore only Ilúvatar can enhance his powers.


----------



## Tar-Elenion (May 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Gil-Galad _
> 
> 
> > Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time'.
> ...



JRRT is not merely "just supposing", he knows quite well who sent Gandalf (and the other Istari) initially (the Valar), how the plan was failing (Gandalf being slain), and who took up the plan and saved it ("Authority"). The Letter states that the Valar are concern extends only to the "embodied world", and Gandalf, at his death, leaves the World and Time. JRRT is quite clear that the Valar did not send Gandalf back, in that portion of the quote from Letter 156 which you are saying is a supposition it states that the "'gods'" did not send Gandalf back. The 'gods' are the Valar. Since it was not the Valar but rather "the Authority" who enhanced Gandalf and sent him back then the only question is:
Who is meant by "Authority"?
The Authority is distinguished by being outside of the "embodied world" (unlike the Valar), for Gandalf had to pass "'out of thought and time'". Elsewhere in that Letter it is noted that: "the Authority... ordained the Rules". So the Authority is outside the world, ordains the rules, and has authority over even the Valar. The only one who fits this bill is Eru Iluvatar, God.


----------



## Athelas (May 6, 2003)

*I think we have a winner*



> _Originally posted by Arvedui _
> *Just to further clarify this: There is more in Eä than Arda and the Void. Gandalf does not nescesarry enter the void even if he leaves Arda. As he said, he 'strayed out of thought and time.'
> IMO, he is taken to Eru, and given enhanced powers so that he can counter the Treason of Saruman.
> Olorin is a Maia, and the ability to give him enhanced powers does not reside with Manwë. He is an offspring of the mind of Ilúvatar, and therefore only Ilúvatar can enhance his powers. *



I see the truth of it.


----------

