# Was Saruman really 'stripped' of his powers?



## pgt (Jan 26, 2004)

Related to my other thread - here's why I ask...

We are repeatedly told that Saruman how little left save his oratory skills - his power to influence and trick and conive thru voice... Tolkein mentions it as if to say this is but a minor triffle of a 'power' and of little import or concern.

But let's think about that a minute... by extension of the old adage the pen being mightier than the sword - have not many of the greatest and worst leaders of people and nations achieved such thru the power of voice, communication, speech and such? In JRRT's time how about Churchill and Hitler? Given time and exposure to wild men, ruffians, orcs, various men in the far east and south - that seems a dangerous 'power' to be left floating about.

What about Saruman's (scientific?) tinkering w/ his 'bomb' that blew up the wall - that's not a 'power' per se but seems to be more the result of dabbling w/ concoctions that are explosive as in some sort of gun powder or so I always took it to be. Given that - it seems more a device based in science than any sort of 'magical' power that can be stripped. 

And finally this leads to the final area possibly left unstripped and that's his general 'knowledge'. As a lore master he has accumulated 1000s of years of knowledge about who knows what all - short of inducing amnesia - is this something that can be easily stripped former white wizard or not?

All in all the text doesn't quite logically pursue the potential for Saruman the outcast for me. What powers did he have originally? Bad weather? Black birds? Uruk Hai geneticist (science or magic?). But then part of it may be that in the book we are just treated to so very little insight into Saruman and are left to presume he was a victim of his own ego and the designs of Sauron per the palantir. I guess it would be interesting to know more about what led a highly intelligent wizard down a path of what turned out to be in hindsight such utterly poor judgement and miscalculation.


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## Bombadillo (Jan 26, 2004)

I don't think that saruman was as much stripped from its powers as broken by seeing his empire to be utterly destroyed...
Saruman had much knowledge and great oratory skills indeed, but science or bombs? no that was only in the movie. 
And that saruman was not stripped from its powers is proven in the rotk where saruman and a band of thieves plunder and enslave all of the shire.... 
This proved that he still had some, might over others.
But you must remember what a terrible blow it is seeing your entire creation destroyed, and knowing that, when the dark lord prevails, your doomed for.


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## Niniel (Jan 26, 2004)

Hi Bombadillo, nice to see you here!  
Saruman of course had special powers because he was a Maia; that gave him powers of the mind and body that were beyond that of Man (such as his ability to do 'magic' (we shouldn't really call it that) with his staff, to live indefinitely, to influence nature (mkaing Caradhras turn against the Fellowship) etc. These powers were destroyed when Gandalf took his staff from him.
Apart from that Saruman had powers that were connected to the mortal body he was living in; such as his voice that could ensnare others and his will to dominate others. These he kept after he was stripped of his powers, and he could and did still use them.
But you are right that Saruman while building his little empire seems to have used mostly these powers; his voice and his power of domination. So in this way it is hard to understand why he could not continue this after Gandalf degraded him. I think he just understood how powerful Gandalf had become, and that he could not hope to ever gain power over him, or over Gondor and Rohan, as long as Gandalf helped Aragorn and Théoden. Also Sauron knew that Saruman's powers were destroyed, so allying himself with Sauron wasn't an option any more. So he went to bully the only people that he had left with the powers that he had left, namely the Shire.


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## pgt (Jan 26, 2004)

What does it mean to be "broken"? Is that like some sort of mental breakdown or nervous breakdown? For a 'broken' Wizard he carries a lot of malice and has no compunction about using what powers he has left - his voice.



> but science or bombs? no that was only in the movie.


Not the Movie: Aragorn specifically says "the Orcs" (not Saruman) "have a 'blasting fire'" which of course "blasted" a hole in the outer wall of Helm's Deep. This occured in the paragraph immediately after the one where the Orcs specifically occupied the culvert under the wall. To me, the description of their taking of the outer wall is one whereby the Orcs use some sort of blasting device courtesy of Saruman. 



> saruman was not stripped from its powers is proven in the rotk where saruman and a band of thieves plunder and enslave all of the shire....


I thought the shire was taken over by purely convention means thru a band of ruffians w/ allegience to a distant commander in charge of a large army of Uruk Hai. When Sharkey (their now dethroned commander) ultimately arrived in the Shire it was ALREADY in his control so to speak but certainly he could sustain his control at this point over his ruffians through his voice. 

---

The loss of his long, extended or eternal life - that's a great example of a lost power - thanks Niniel!

I too always figured when Gandalf confronted him that was the moment he was demoted so to speak. That suggests the interesting dilemma that for a brief period there were TWO white wizards. On the other hand I sometimes wonder if his powers had in fact begun to erode *at the time* of Gandalf's reincarnation but that he did not notice this so much since he was committed to a path that dependend more on his now vast conventional forces and conventional devices and such. That is to say he now had an army to put forth and a tactical explosive device to issue them that even an idiot couldn't screw up in it's operation.

Some more outlandish theories might have him meandering up to Gundabad and establishing dominion over orcs (yeah sure) or maybe to parts far far to the south or east. There are some decent sized cities and civilizations to points south he could have done well for himself in...? Of course the Goblin like ruffians proved fairly inept for his purposes and he never had a chance to exercise his oratory skills directly on the Hobbit population (if they would have worked). Hindsight being 20/20 - I think going to the shire to 'run things' may have been a bit of a blunder - (even if the returning 'travelers' failed to raise the Shire) considering it was in Elrond's back yard so to speak, the new king came from that general region and returning Hobbits had been closely involved in the great events of Rohan and Gondor and were closely allied w/ Rivendell, Minas Tirith, Edoras - the thought that he could sustain his dominion over the Shire seems unrealistic.

thanks for the responses,


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## Arandinn (Feb 2, 2004)

*Saruman the Spirit*

Heil!
Saruman didn't lost his power, just the temporary body(flesh). Everyone knows that hi is a Maia and can't die. He is one of the Istari, the Wizards.
He had great power and knowlage but Gandalf had the greates wisdom. 
Mayby Saruman will come back, he may. And mayby he already returned.


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## Lantarion (Feb 2, 2004)

Well, Arandin, it is widely accepted and agreed upon that Saurman's spirit or _fëa_ was not granted re-entry into Aman, mainly based on the quote wherein he is killed by Gríma; the reason for this denial is/was very likely to be/have been his past infringement of the law of the Valar, in other words he did not fulfill his mission as an Istar and he killed thousands of innocent poeple in the process. This would be more than enough reason for the Valar to toss him into the Void with Melkor.

pgt: I'm not entirely sure what it is you are asking, your wording was a little confusing.. But apparently you are asking why we think that Saruman relinquished his mission and turned to evil? 
The way I see it, the answer is very simple; the Ring. Saruman did not become corrupted or show signs of corruption until some time after he had begun to delve deeper into 'Ring-lore'; he knew the potential power of the One, and that most probably was his ultimate goal in some sense.
As to what the meaning of his great amassing of armies and co-operation with Sauron, I am not quite certain.
And as far as his scientific experiments go, I agree that he was a student and proabbly master of mechanics and explosives; the 'machines' beneath Isengard are often mentioned, and apart from the apparent explosion at Helm's Deep there are the bouts of fire which kill several Onodrim in their attack on Orthanc.
I believe that Saruman was, to Tolkien, not so much an allegory as a symbol of this mechanical and industrial power and might which was and is not so slowly overtaking the natural, aesthetic world. At least that is how I would see it.


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 2, 2004)

Saruman 'scattered' his power for the purpose of dominating other wills, just like Melkor and Sauron had done. When Gandalf broke his staff, Saruman was already less in power in comparison to when he first arrived in TA 1000. Gandalf, as the White, had the authority to take away his remaining powers, which were bound to his body, which in turn was imposed upon him by the Valar. I believe Saruman could still make use of his remaining powers if ever he took another physical shape (not one imposed on him by the Lords of the West).

Why didn't Gandalf also take away the power of Saruman's voice?


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## Gothmog (Feb 2, 2004)

ithrynluin,

while I agree with you about Saruman and Melkor "scattering" their powers I think that you are wrong to say the same about Sauron. Although he did put his power "outside" of himself, he did not scatter it but just the opposite. He Concentrated it in the One Ring. This is why as long as the Ring lasted Sauron would continue.

As for why Gandalf did not remove the power of Saruman's Voice. I doubt very much that it was a power he could remove without taking the power of speech completely.


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 2, 2004)

I mostly agree with you Gothmog, but Sauron did not put all of his power into the One Ring, but a great part of it. He had quite enough left to 'squander', and especially after he was 'robbed' of the One Ring he needed a new means of controlling his servants, and I believe he had to pour forth some more of his native power to control the throngs of orcs and such.

One another note, why think Saruman squandered his power, but not Sauron, seeing how Saruman too made a ring for himself?


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