# Was Thingol right to impose the Quest of the Silmaril upon Beren?



## Arvedui (Oct 15, 2003)

The Silmarillion, Chapter 19: Of Beren and Luthien


> Bring to me in your hand a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown; and then, if she will, Luthien may set her hand in yours. (Thingol to Beren)



Another topic from the Debate Tournament.

Enjoy


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## Starflower (Oct 15, 2003)

was he wrong ? yes, he's setting an impossible task and an impossible price for the hand of his daughter. not only is it wrogn, it is to a degree racist, he does not approve of Beren as he is a Man, not an Elf. He's setting a trap for Beren, hoping that either a) he would give up , or b) should he be so foolish as to try, he would die in the attempt. Of course we know now that the quest was important as from that union came Dior and ultimately Elros and Elrond.


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## Húrin Thalion (Oct 15, 2003)

Thingol was wrong in two ways. Firstly, he wished Beren's death in the attempt, to get rid of him and get his daughter's "Love" back. I say "Love" because I could as well say attention, or that he wanted her for himself. The second reason was because he desired the silmarils, which is in itself not a fault, but that in fact he "ordered" a man to get them for him. He had no right whatsoever to posess those jewels who after all belonged to at least someone of the Noldoli. Thingol used a double edged sword, it struck back at him.

Måns


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## Bethelarien (Oct 15, 2003)

Wow! My topic! Now I feel all warm and fuzzy!

I picked this one to be hard. However, I felt that yes, he was wrong. Beren and Luthien loved each other, and I don't feel that anyone--be he Vala, Elf, Man, or Dwarf!--has the right to stand between two people who truly love each other. Albeit, I know he was Luthien's father and would only want the best for her as any parent would, but she was an adult. She was capable of making her own decisions, regardless of whether or not her father agreed with her.

And then, of course, there's the small factor that he simply wanted to get rid of Beren. He knew no one had yet succeeded in obtaining a Silmaril, and it was likely no one ever would--which is why he set a Silmaril as Luthien's bride-price. He didn't think Beren could do it, and hoped he would be killed in the process.

Very, very wrong.


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## Grond (Oct 16, 2003)

He was so very totally right in doing this. Up to this point there had never been a union of Elf and Man and he had no intention of "tying" his daughter to a short lived speciMAN. Love has always proved fleeting and a father must practically look out for his daughter's best interest. I'm sure he looked out on the horizon and realized that Luthien would end up facing a much harder parting (at Beren's death) than it would be to face life without him earlier in their love.

His reasons were right. He did not understand MAN or man's impending importance in the world. It was bigoted, in a way, but still very logical and correct given that particular time in history. Of course, he had no idea that the young whippersnapper would actually attempt such a feat nor did he imagine that his daughter would lend her aid to the quest. 

And, finally, had he not made this "right" decision... no one would have been able to enjoy our favorite novels 'cause without Beren and Luthien and Dior or Elwing... no Numenor... no Elrond... no Gondor... no Arwen... no Aragorn... well... you get the picture.


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## Elanor2 (Oct 16, 2003)

I can find no better answer than the one Beren gave:

'Cheap sell their daughters the kings of the elves...'


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## jallan (Oct 16, 2003)

But by what right did Thingol ask for a Silmaril as the bride-price?

Whence came to him the desire to possess one of those jewels which none before him had possessed but Fëanor, Finwë, Ungoliant and Morgoth?

Of course it is the custom for a king in an old tales to place an absurd task on any who seeks his daughter or appears in any way a threat. And often enough what is sought is not anything which the king can claim any legitimate ownership.

In the moment of his asking Thingol doomed himself and his kingdom.


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## Lhunithiliel (Oct 17, 2003)

Ah!
I wouldn't like to play the "devil's advocate"...but let's analyse a bit the situation...

It looks so very wrong for Thingol to do what he did!
So far I read that it was wrong because:
>> he stood in the way of Beren and Luthien's love
>> out of greed he ordered Beren to bring him the S ilmarilli

Wrong....
But ... only because we have (as readers ) heard about Beren and we know about little Luthien's frivolous escapades in the woods with her lover and because we know how much in love they were....

But did Thingol knew that the moment Beren came to his halls to claim HIS most precious treasure? I doubt it! 
Thingol is known through the history of ME as one of those Elven Kings who had no much love and appreciation for the race of the mortals. Nothing personal  ... as they say, but when Men started spreading on the territories of Beleriand, Thingol needed quite some persuasion on part of Finrod in order to consent on their presence around his fair and well guarded kingdom. He had always been known for how "jelous" he was whenever it came to preserving his lands from the unquiet events in the world ot that time. And he deffinitely had no appreciation for the mortals! 
And all of a sudden....comes a mortal!!! who claims the hand of his own daughter! A *mortal*!!!! How dare he?! 

So... I guess it was such a Thingol-style typical reaction! It was *out of the question* for him to deal with a mortal on whatever matter ... least of all - on that mortal marrying his fair daughter. 
Therefore.... he put that condition completely sure that the mortal will fail and die. And thus, he and Luthien would've be freed from the "intruder".
So... in this situation....was he really so very much wrong?

As for wanting to have the Silmarilli for himself.... Perhaps he did... But perhaps he had thought it twice and thrice before even mention about them! Why? 
W ell.. didn't he know what those stones brought to? Had he per chance forgotten about the s laughter of his kin at Aqualonde and the bloody wars in Beleriand all provoked by the sons of Feanor who were bound to their oath? Didn't he know about the oath itself? Didn't he know about the sufferings of the Elves and about the loss of the once fair friendship between the three clans - all because of these stones? Didn't he know about the Doom that hang over the Firstborn because of these stones ? And didn't he know why the Dark Lord had come to ME and had gained such an enormous strength?

He knew all that! I suspect that Thingol did not bring the offer about the S ilmarilli just out of greed. He could be anything but he had always shown himself as wise in matters of politics...and at that time posessing the Silmarilli was a serious political problem. Yes! Political! Kingdoms had fallen because of these stones ! Great leaders had perished because of them! Wars were being unleashed all over once fair Beleriand because of them!
Therefore, being always a wise politician of his time, I strongly doubt that were it not Beren there standing before him, were it an Elf, Thingol could've put to him a dificult task all right ...but never he would've sugested the Silmarili to be the "ransom"
Were that the case, he wouldn't have involved his kingdom in the hottest political quarrel of his age!

Why then he sugested to Beren the Silmarilli in particular?
I guess because he was sure that mortal would've never succeeded in getting them! 
Therefore, even from this p.o.v. he was not that much wrong.

In fact.... I have always had the impression that he s uggested the Silmarili with a clear and firm belief that Beren could have never ever get them!

So... as a father - he'd get rid of the suitor because he would've surely die, and on the other hand - being so sure about the failure of the mission, his kingdom would have not been endangered as becoming the new place for the "dangerous" stones.

Of course ... he missed one very important point - Luthien loved the mortal! 

By which we come to the question: Could Beren get the Silmarilli without Luthien's help?


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## jallan (Oct 17, 2003)

Ah! but Thingol could just as easily have asked for Morgoth’s head (or even Glaurung’s head) if Thingol was looking for any apparently impossible task.

Greedy, greedy Thingol!


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## Ai*Estel (Oct 18, 2003)

Well, I can just say that what everyone else said is some pretty good discussion.

I think that Thingol was wrong in a sense. He gave Beren the quest to get ahold of one of the silmarils because he didn't want to share his daughter with a mortal. To lose his most prized possession. I don't think he realized tho what exactly he was doing. By ordering Beren to this quest, he sealed Beren and Luthien's love...But death is a small price for love. Beren would have gladly have died trying to win Luthien than to give up(which he did). I think Luthien would have died either way, whether Beren went for the silmaril or not. Grief will always eat away at a heart.

But, like what was said before, be could have asked for something else that still more challenging. Obviously there was some kind of greed for the silmaril.

He should have listened to Melian....


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Grond _
> *He was so very totally right in doing this. Up to this point there had never been a union of Elf and Man and he had no intention of "tying" his daughter to a short lived speciMAN. Love has always proved fleeting and a father must practically look out for his daughter's best interest. I'm sure he looked out on the horizon and realized that Luthien would end up facing a much harder parting (at Beren's death) than it would be to face life without him earlier in their love.
> 
> His reasons were right. He did not understand MAN or man's impending importance in the world. It was bigoted, in a way, but still very logical and correct given that particular time in history. Of course, he had no idea that the young whippersnapper would actually attempt such a feat nor did he imagine that his daughter would lend her aid to the quest.
> ...



I think Grond said the best words which could be said!I agree especially with the fact that Thingol was Luthien's father and he wanted the best for his daughter.Trust me fathers' love towards their daughter is extremely strong,and they are always angry with the one who wants "to steal their daughters" from them.


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## Wonko The Sane (Dec 11, 2003)

First of all, I totally love this topic. I was in England when Snaga was debating on it and we spent a load of time discussing it...yes we're dorks. 
And we also spent time reading what Tolkien originally wrote on it in his earlier versions of the tale.
It was Tolkien's intent to show Thingol to be malicious and capricious in charging Beren with this task, a sort of laugh in his face: "You marry MY daughter! Hah!" He tried to get rid of him by giving him an impossible task.




> _Originally posted by Grond _
> *He was so very totally right in doing this. Up to this point there had never been a union of Elf and Man and he had no intention of "tying" his daughter to a short lived speciMAN. Love has always proved fleeting and a father must practically look out for his daughter's best interest. I'm sure he looked out on the horizon and realized that Luthien would end up facing a much harder parting (at Beren's death) than it would be to face life without him earlier in their love.
> 
> His reasons were right. He did not understand MAN or man's impending importance in the world. It was bigoted, in a way, but still very logical and correct given that particular time in history. Of course, he had no idea that the young whippersnapper would actually attempt such a feat nor did he imagine that his daughter would lend her aid to the quest.
> ...




In response to Grond, I disagree. He may have had reason to dissuade his daughter from marrying Beren...but he didn't have to, in essence, kill him to do it. I know Beren didn't die but it's what Thingol intended, and intent is just as bad as deed in some cases. It was insane overkill to try to get Beren to submit to this quest. He could just as easily devised another, non lethal way, to stop the marriage if that's what he wanted.

I think he was just plain mean.


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## HLGStrider (Dec 31, 2003)

Let me throw something in: Thingol didn't think Beren would be stupid enough to attempt it. . .and if he would be stupid enough he would have deserved what he got and probably would be stupid enough to get himself killed some other way eventually (tripping over a rock and falling off a mountain, stealing eagles eggs to make an omelet, playing jumprope with a cranky dwarf's beard), so he was only shortening his life by a few years at the most.

I get a strong impression that Thingol expected Beren to just grow red in the face and turn away when given this task. I don't know if this is accurate. I get odd impressions.

I will add that not only did Thingol not know Luthien loved Beren, he didn't know Beren loved Luthien. 

Truthfully, what man seeing Luthien dancing in the glade wouldn't _want _her. Every man who came in contact with Luthien probably _wanted _her. 

Thingol didn't see this as yeilding his daughter to the love of a mortal. He saw it as yeilding his daughter to the petty lusts of one, which to any father would be about the same as offering her up to be beaten and mocked in public. It's just not something good dad's do.

Was it a wrong as in stupid thing to do? Yes. He should've known the power of those Jewels. He should've known better than to underestimate Beren's ability not to get the jewels but to cause general trouble while trying. . .and you have to admit, Beren did cause a considerable amount of trouble before he eventually won the day.

I agree he wouldn't have put it forward to an Elf, but not because the Elfe would have a chance: because an Elf, especially if the Elf were Noldor, would try and try with all his heart. 

This is the equivelent of a dad telling a sixteen-year-old boy he can date the daughter of the house when he's twenty-four and has a good job. The dad never expects the boy to stick around that long. Sometimes they do though.


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## Lantarion (Jan 2, 2004)

Great point Elgee, nice new point of view. 
I agree with Starlfower that Thingol was being racist, to a degree, by scorning a Man with such an impossible quest. But I also believe that he meant it more as an insult than an actual quest or an order! He must have been pretty flustered when Beren actually went for it, haha!

But I'm not sure how significant this 'Elf-elitism over Men'-theme is in this case.. In the earlier version of this tale, called _The Tale of Tinúviel_, Beren is an Elf, a 'gnome' (later Noldo); so maybe Tolkien changed his whole view of the Tale because he wanted Men to reap some more glory, perhaps; or then he was beginning to formulate all his ideas about the Line of Elros.


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## Inderjit S (Jan 2, 2004)

The Line of Elros only came to be of importance when Tolkien began to think about Aragorn's lineage etc. when he was writing LoTR, some years after Beren was changed to a Man.

I think that changing Beren to a Man improved the beauty of the story. (Plus when writing the Silmarillion the role of the Gnomes and Dark-Elves changed, and they were no longer mistrustful and hostile to one another to the degree that is given in BoLT.)

Thingol would have wanted to get rid of this Man, one way or another. I wonder if _anyone_ , Elf or Man was good enough for Lúthien (in Thingol's eyes) and the fact that a lowly Man wanted to marry her was the biggest insult you could throw at Thingol.


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## Wonko The Sane (Jan 8, 2004)

I disagree, Elgee.

It's one thing to say, "You can date my daughter when you're a man and you can support her and take care of her like she deserves."

It's another thing to say, "Sure, if you go on a suicide mission!". Because even if you don't think he'll go for it, it's still an irresponsible thing to do.

Because when Beren DID attempt it, even if it meant he was being foolish, Thingol is still partially responsible for his death if it doesn't work out.

Court cases today have happened in similar ways. For example, in Fraternity hazings, they have forced pledges to stand in the snow for hours, and if they didn't give up, they would have a better chance of making the Fraternity.
One year a young boy died of hypothermia. They didn't FORCE him to do it, nominally it was his choice. But if he didn't do it he wouldn't get into the fraternity, and they courts found the Fraternity president responsible for his death.

They didn't FORCE him to stand in the snow, and it WAS foolish of the poor boy not to just give up and decide his health was more important, but they were partially responsible for imposing that task on him, just as Thingol would be for imposing the quest on Beren had Beren died as well.


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## HLGStrider (Jan 8, 2004)

I'd say there is a line between forcing and suggesting. . .and truthfully, Thingol probably didn't value Beren's life. He probably even felt the world would be better off without Beren. I didn't say it wasn't irresponsible. I just said it wasn't wrong. Probably the additude he had was wrong. We could mince points on where exactly the line between personal responsibility and responsibility of the suggestor goes. I, for one, wouldn't have convicted the president. I would have told him off sharply, but I don't think he was criminally irresponsible.


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## Wonko The Sane (Jan 9, 2004)

Well, in my mind, to require someone to risk their lives unreasonably DOES entail criminal responsiblity if they get hurt.

Thingol could have easily said, with the same intentions to protect his daughter and the SAME feelings that no man was worth of her, "Beren, you may not marry my daughter unless you prove yourself worthy beyond the mettle of a mere man." Or something like that.

He could have just asked Beren to prove his worth WITHOUT requiring him to risk his life.

You may not have found the president guilty, but legally, and in my mind, he was.
He didn't HAVE to require something life-threatening for his pledges. He could have asked them to do something more tame...like a panty-raid, or streaking the cafeteria, or shouting names for male private parts in lecture...
Something embarrassing but HARMLESS.

Thingol could have done the same. If the results (if Beren had died, or the frat-pledge's death) are wrong, then the person responsible for their death, and the actions that lead to it, are wrong too.

Even when somebody doesn't MEAN to kill someone (Driving without their glasses, shooting your husband cos you think he's an intruder) the actions can still be considered wrong. It was WRONG to shoot your husband, but you can be forgiven because you didn't know it was him and you were trying to protect yourself.
But if you KNEW it was your husband and shot anyway, that's murder.

If Thingol had asked Beren to simply prove himself, and Beren had gotten killed, it wouldn't be his fault. It was unspecific and vague and did not directly require life-threatening action.
Because Thingol specifically asked Beren to do something which would risk his life and PROBABLY result in his death it became a WRONG action, in addition to being irresponsible.
Because Beren didn't die doesn't make it ok.


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## HLGStrider (Jan 9, 2004)

> "Beren, you may not marry my daughter unless you prove yourself worthy beyond the mettle of a mere man."


Wouldn't have been enough for Thingol?


> He could have just asked Beren to prove his worth WITHOUT requiring him to risk his life.


But Thingol didn't _want_ Beren to prove his worth. He wanted him to run out the door crying and never come back. At this point NOTHING would have been able to convince Thingol that Beren would EVER merit his daughter, so he gave him the most impossible and most deadly task to show this.



> Even when somebody doesn't MEAN to kill someone (Driving without their glasses, shooting your husband cos you think he's an intruder) the actions can still be considered wrong.


I didn't say what the kid did wasn't wrong. I said it wasn't criminal. 

If that is criminal it sets a precendent that you, by dare or egging on, can be responsible for another's actions. It could be used as a precedent for things like a kid seeing something on TV and doing it. A boyfriend or girlfriend telling the other member of the relationship "I hope you die!" in a fit of rage and that person goes and comits suicide. All kinds of stupid dares kids make one another. All very wrong. Not criminal.


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## Wonko The Sane (Jan 9, 2004)

You're right, it probably wouldn't have been enough for Thingol.
But it was only an example of what he COULD have said.

He also could have just said, "No way, now get out of here."

Or if he wanted to put it nicely, "Not until you prove yourself sufficiently to me." Which could translate into, "You'll never prove yourself sufficiently to me so get out."

As to the precedent for one person being responsible for another person's actions, I disagree.
The TV does not give a child a directive to do something dangerous.
And a girlfriend telling her boyfriend, "I hope you die!" is a statement of rage, and anger, but not a directive to kill themselves.
She may feel responsible or guilty, but it wouldn't be her fault.

But to knowing REQUIRE somebody to do something life-threatening can be construed as legally wrong.

Say I tell you that if you want to join my club you have to shoot yourself in the foot. You don't HAVE to do it if you don't want to. But you do if you want to join my club.
Say you DO do it and you die from blood loss.
I've just issued a directive for you to do something that led to your death.
That's reckless endangerment.
People have gone to jail for simply saying something to the police, even when it's not sworn testimony in court, that implicates someone in a crime they didn't commit.
Your false allegations put them in jail where they're killed, and you're responsible for their death.


Thingol was wrong, and woudl have been acountable if Beren had died.
There were plenty of other ways for him to deal with the situation.


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## HLGStrider (Jan 10, 2004)

> He also could have just said, "No way, now get out of here."


I think it should be noted that Thingol's first desire was to have Beren run through right there. He thought the fellow deserved death or at least utter humiliation. He wasn't trying to say it in a nice way. He was trying to say it in a way that would disgrace him, humiliate him, and make sure he never came back. He wanted to make sure that if the guy was the persistant type, every time he came back to repeat the request (which he would've had he given a "No way.") Thingol could say, "Only if you have a Silmaril in your back pocket." At which Beren would again slink away humiliated. I think Thingol saw this as a good alternative to killing the fellow out right. It made him lose face before Luthien. It made him probably not care to show up again. AND it made him very unlikely to mention that he'd had dalliance with Thingol's little girl--something I imagine Thingol didn't wish to have spread around Arda.



> But to knowing REQUIRE somebody to do something life-threatening can be construed as legally wrong.


And what constitutes life threatening? A bike stunt can be life threatening. Diving off a high board can be life threatening if you do it stupidly. Swimming across a river channel. We make dares like this all the time. 

I do think the kid should've been suspended, but due to the legal precedent, no, not legal action by government. Government will take anything like that too far.



> But you do if you want to join my club.


I think that I'd be an idiot to want to join your club in that case. 



> People have gone to jail for simply saying something to the police, even when it's not sworn testimony in court, that implicates someone in a crime they didn't commit.


But that's different. That's making a false statement to injure someone or protect someone else. I think that there isn't any room for wide precedents on that.


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## Mimzy (Jun 11, 2011)

I kind of think he wasn't even serious. It was like his way of saying 'no way in Hell' ... but since Beren actually took it on and succeeded, of course Thingol had to say yes.


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## Bard the Bowman (Jun 12, 2011)

Exactly Mimzy. Remember in the Greek myth of Perseus when the king gives Perseus the impossible task of bringing back Medusa's head in exchange for his daughter, in the hopes that Perseus would never return. That is exactly what this was like. So of course he was right. How could he not be right? He can impose any condition on Beren he feels like, that is assuming you already agree with the idea that you need the father's permission.


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