# Hinder them, but not with force?



## Confusticated (Sep 11, 2004)

We learn the Teleri would not lend the ships to the Noldor or aid in the building of them against the will of the Valar. Do you think this was a mistake of the Valar? After all, the Noldor were not forbidden to leave, just counselled against it. They were not to be hindered by force either. So why the more passive kind of hindering? But I see the big question as being: Did Manwe underestimate the determination of the Noldor to return to Middle-earth? As well as Feanor's ill capabilities? I think it is plain that he did, and would call this an error. Failure to allow the Teleri to aid their friends at this time was a decision founded on an error, so I would say they made a very big mistake that resulted in the Kinslaying which might otherwise not have happened. Is they agreed to sail the Noldor to the shores of Beleriand, who can say what would have happened? Maybe it would have gone ill anyways, but I think it was no less an error of the Valar.

Or do you think Manwe had some higher plan, that maybe he knew that Teleri reaching the coast and meeting with the Falathrim there would have been disasterous? I don't think so.


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## Gothmog (Sep 11, 2004)

No it was not a mistake on the part of the Valar as they did not prevent the Teleri from doing anything.

from the Silmarillion, Chapter 9: Of the Flight of the Noldor.


> But even as the trumpet sang and Fëanor issued from the gates of Tirion a messenger came at last from Manwë, saying: 'Against the folly of Fëanor shall be set my counsel only. Go not forth! For the hour is evil, and your road leads to sorrow that ye do not foresee. *No aid will the Valar lend you in this quest; but neither will they hinder you; for this ye shall know: as ye came hither freely, freely shall ye depart*.


Manwë states that the Valar will do nothing to help or hinder.

and later


> But the Teleri were unmoved by aught that he could say. They were grieved indeed at the going of their kinsfolk and long friends, *but would rather dissuade them than aid them*; and no ship would they lend, nor help in the building, against the will of the Valar. As for themselves, they desired now no other home but the strands of Eldamar, and no other lord than Olwë, prince of Alqualondë. And he had never lent ear to Morgoth, nor welcomed him to his land, and he trusted still the Ulmo and the other great among the Valar would redress the hurts of Morgoth, and that the night would pass yet to a new dawn.


This is the important part. It shows that it was the Teleri themselves that choose not to give aid in lending or the building of ships. Had the Valar not "Spoken" against the Noldor leaving then perhaps the Teleri would have looked on the request of the Noldor differently. However, any mistake involved in this would most likely have been made by Fëanor himself. Lets look at how he came to the Teleri in Alqualondë.


> Fëanor cooled and took counsel he perceived overlate that all these great companies would never overcome the long leagues to the north, nor cross the seas at the last, save with the aid of ships; yet it would need long time and toil to build so great a sleet, even were there any among the Noldor skilled in that craft. *He resolved now therefore to persuade the Teleri, ever friends to the Noldor, to join with them; and in his rebellion he thought that thus the bliss of Valinor might be further diminished and his power for war upon Morgoth be increased. he hastened then to Alqualondë, and spoke to the Teleri as he had spoken before in Tirion*.


In his anger Fëanor wanted not only to have the ships but also the have the Teleri follow him to "Punish" the Valar. This intent on his part probably did more to hinder his plans than a direct order from the Valar could ever have done.


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## Lhunithiliel (Sep 11, 2004)

Even in this 'episode' there comes the 'big issue' of _fate vs. free will_, I guess.
To presume that the Valar made a mistake in these events, means to accept the possibility that the Elves were nothing more but puppets on strings, held by the Gods.
But then ... such a presumption may strongly contradict the known about the Children - being almost equal to the Valar for being 'made' by Eru himself, just like the Ainur-Valar had been created by him. Right? 
Based on this, I find it difficult to accept that the Valar ever 'dared' to control their younger 'brethren' without the 'Father' to have been 'informed accordingly' and given permission to do sth.

So, methinks  that it was purely Elves' affairs.

Now, Feanor's failure to persuade the Teleri I find in the fact of the 'clan'-separation of the Elves right from the beginning. Those three clans behaved as if different peoples - each respecting their own King and prepared to oppose an 'invasion' of any kind upon them.
And it is strange and .... to me - sorrowful, to read about this and to 'see' it deepening with the course of the ages.
I think this is the reason, or at least one of the main ones, for the Teleri to be so unyielding to Feanor.


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## Astaldo (Sep 12, 2004)

I agree Manwe through the messenger told that Valar will not interfere to this, so it was indeed na elven affair. Maybe there was a higher plan that had to do with the future of the elven relationships or sth like this


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