# Wraithizing



## HLGStrider (Mar 3, 2004)

I was curious about something. Was Frodo's risk of slipping into wraith-hood ring associated? 

Gollum carried the Ring for several centuries, and while it prolonged his life and corrupted him, it never seems to have brought him into wraithhood. In fact, the Ring seems to give up on ever completing Gollum's transformation, and leaves him still corporeal. Was it just taking too long? 

Frodo, on the other hand, starts to show risks of wraith hood after having the ring for. . .oh, I don't know the exact time, but less than a quarter of a century, I think. When wondering why I remembered the knife on Weathertop. That tried to wraith-ize him (wraithize being a new verb I invented for this conversation.). Gollum never experienced this. . .

but does that mean that Frodo would likewise have never been wraithized? 

We know that the dwarves weren't wraithized, but the men were. Was this because of a difference in the rings or just purely the strength of Aule's folk over the Second Born? 

If because of the difference in rings, was the One capable of Wraithizing its wearer? There really is never an example of this happening? 

I keep on thinking that it must be stated somewhere that it will eventually wraith you. . .wait a minute, I'm going to check on one or two quotes. . .

Yes, it isn't just suspicion:

"A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings. Yes, sooner or later--later if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last--sooner or later the dark power will devour him."

This seems pretty wraithizing to me. . .so did Gollum not use the Ring enough? 
Then did the Dwarves not use their rings enough either? Or were they just so much stronger then men, like Gollum, that it couldn't get them?

Was Gollum simply that much stronger than Frodo, or did the potency of Sauron become so much greater during Frodo's time that the ring grew stronger?

Or was it not the ring at all, just simply the knife at Weathertop, that caused Frodo to start slipping into wraith-dom?

Or a mix of both Ring and Blade?

Would Gollum have eventually become a Wraith had he managed to keep the ring? Would the process have accelerated when Sauron started to come into his own again? It does list this reasoning, "He had proved tougher than even one of the Wise would have guessed--as a hobbit might. . ."

and again

"Certainly he had never "faded". He is thin and tough still."

But Frodo. . .the threat of Wraithdom comes fast and furious?

More and more I lean to the main accelerator of it being Weathertop. Wraith-Frodo is mentioned most in connection with that knife?

But of course this is all random musing and questioning. I find my threads rarely have one sure question. . .just a lot of rambling. . .
Any comments?


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## Maeglin (Mar 3, 2004)

I've always assumed that it was just a mix of the ring and the blade, but that in order for the ring to start wraithizing quickly as it did to Frodo, the blade had to have first stabbed him. The Ring would just take much longer on its own I think, hence Gollum never completely fades. Also remember that Gollum rarely wore the ring after he made his dwelling place in the cave in the Misty Mountains, because it was all dark down there anyhow; Gollum himself states in "the Hobbit" that he mainly uses it only for hunting orcs when he is especially hungry.


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## Greenwood (Mar 4, 2004)

HLGStrider,

Glorfindel1187 has it right. In the same conversation you quote (I believe it is from The Shadow of the Past chapter in FOTR) Gandalf says exactly what Glorfindel1187 has pointed out, that Gollum didn't use the Ring much in his decades (centuries ?) under the mountains. He had no need to in the darkness. As for Frodo, the immediate danger of his becoming a wraith was from his wounding by the Morgul-blade on Weathertop. Remember, the blade left a piece inside of him that was traveling inward to pierce his heart. At that point he would have become a wraith. The implication of both Aragorn's and Gandalf's description of the effects of that blade is that it would turn someone stabbed in the heart by it into a wraith whether they possessed a Great Ring or not.


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## HLGStrider (Mar 5, 2004)

Then I'm going to go out on a limb and say the wraithizing of Frodo was purely Bladish, not at all Ringish.

I wonder how long Wraithizing a Hobbit would take?


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## Eledhwen (Mar 5, 2004)

Then there's this...


> Gandalf moved his chair to the bedside, and took a good look at Frodo. the colour had come backto his face, and his eyes were clear, and fully awake and aware. He was smiling, and there seemed to be littel wrong with thim. But to the wizard's eye there was a faint change, just a hint as it were of transparency, about him, and especially about the left hand that lay outside the coverlet.
> 'Still that must be expected,' said Gandalf to himself. 'He is not half through yet, and to what he will come in the end not even Elrond can foretell. Not to evil, I think. He may become like a glass filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can.'


It seems there was another power at work in Frodo; a power 'not to evil'. Frodo's senses became somewhat supernatural from that time; he could see better than the others in Moria, and saw afar from Amon Hen as if he had a palantir.


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## Greenwood (Mar 5, 2004)

Eledhwen said:


> Frodo's senses became somewhat supernatural from that time; he could see better than the others in Moria, and saw afar from Amon Hen as if he had a palantir.



But on Amon Hen Frodo was wearing the Ring. His far-seeing there was a combination of the power of the Ring and the special location -- the Seat of Seeing. But this is not to say I disagree with your point that Frodo may have had heightened senses in the dark due to his wound and the Ring.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Mar 5, 2004)

HLGStrider said:


> I was curious about something. Was Frodo's risk of slipping into wraith-hood ring associated?
> 
> Gollum carried the Ring for several centuries, and while it prolonged his life and corrupted him, it never seems to have brought him into wraithhood. In fact, the Ring seems to give up on ever completing Gollum's transformation, and leaves him still corporeal. Was it just taking too long?
> 
> Frodo, on the other hand, starts to show risks of wraith hood after having the ring for. . .oh, I don't know the exact time, but less than a quarter of a century, I think. When wondering why I remembered the knife on Weathertop. That tried to wraith-ize him (wraithize being a new verb I invented for this conversation.). Gollum never experienced this. . .Any comments?



It's an interesting question. Just going by the text, I wouldn't be surprised if Gollum would have become a wraith almost instantly had he been stabbed by a Morgul knife after 500 years of possessing the ring. And hobbits are "tough in the fiber."

You may have caught an inconsistency in Tolkien's writings. He himself knew about them: "The most critical reader of all, myself, now finds many defects, minor and major, but being fortunately under no obligation either to review the book or to write it again _he will pass over these in silence,_ except one that has been noted by others: the book is too short." (Emphasis mine.) And if you read his letters in Carpenter's book, you'll find that there came a point where he simply decided that the book was, FINALLY, to a place where he wanted it, and would brook no more changes in it, despite its still-existing problems. 

I think the passage just quoted should be burned onto the foreheads backwards (so it can be read in a mirror ) of all Tolkien fans who ask "Why was it this way and not that way? What if...?" 

In the end, _the book is as Tolkien wanted it to be._ That satisfies me at least, and relieves me of asking the myriad speculative questions asked by so many others. But yours was one of those rare good ones!

Lotho


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## Gothmog (Mar 5, 2004)

One other point on this question which was addressed by Tolkien in the Book. While Gollum had the Ring and wore it Sauron was slowly building up his power once more. When he had regained enough the Ring "Knew" that Sauron was abroad and tried to get back to him. From that time on the Will of Sauron within the Ring grew gradually stronger. Bilbo held the Ring for longer than Frodo yet seems to have less trouble than him.

So I would say that the growing power in the Ring was also part of the problem. Though I agree that the Morgul Blade was more likely to be the main cause of the risk of Frodo becoming a wraith.


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## Greenwood (Mar 5, 2004)

Gothmog,

Good point. There also seems to be a distance effect in play in the book. Certainly Tolkien portrays the Ring has being a greater and greater burden to Frodo the closer he gets to Mount Doom. Indeed, in one of his letters Tolkien says that the Ring's power would be at its peak at Mount Doom, the site of its creation.

Also, of course, Bilbo never came near a Nazgul and proximity to one of them also seemed to increase the Ring's effect on Frodo.


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## HLGStrider (Mar 9, 2004)

It became more of a burden, yes, but did it consume him? A burden suggests that Frodo still had mortal strength to resist it and to grow weary. I always thought that the wraith process would become more and more than he is gleaning strength from the ring, in that without it he is weaker and weaker and it sucks his power when he wears it, but still he feels stonger with it, until it absorbs all his being totally.

I never felt the burden part, the ring of fire, was part of him giving into the ring. I think if he gave in to the ring, he wouldn't have noticed the weight at all in a way he'd attribute to the ring. It was only in resisting it that he felt it fighting.


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## Greenwood (Mar 9, 2004)

I took your "wraithizing" to refer to becoming permanently invisible, to be permanently in the unseen world as the Nazgul were. In LOTR the only way this transformation seems to be accomplished is by prolonged use of a Ring of Power or if a Morgul blade pierces your heart. The increasing power and burden of the Ring on Frodo as he nears Orodruin are not examples of "wraithizing". If they were one might expect that when Frodo put on the Ring at the Cracks of Doom and claimed it for himself he would be instantly turned into a wraith and then would have been destroyed when the Ring was destroyed as were Sauron and the remaining Nazgul.


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## Eledhwen (Mar 9, 2004)

I think the phrase 'neither living nor dead' would describe wraith-hood to me. A wraith. The OED says it is the ghost or ghostly image of someone, especially when seen shortly before or after their death. Plainly Tolkien means something more by the word. An other-worldliness is suggested. Frodo at Weathertop saw the Ringwraiths as they really were when he put the Ring on. In other words, they were not incorporeal but of a substance that can only be seen in the 'other world' (confirmed by Merry's knife unknitting the sinews of the Ringwraith at Pelennor, and Eowyn slaying him with a sword). Frodo's heightened perception of the 'other side' also affected the way he saw Glorfindel at the Fords - which was also how the Nazgul saw him and were dismayed.


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## Maeglin (Mar 9, 2004)

....which brings up a good point, was Glorfindel indeed some sort of a wraith? oooh this will be fun, but its not the topic for this thread, so off to start a new thread I go! thanks for the idea Eledhwen!


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## Eledhwen (Mar 10, 2004)

Glorfindel1187 said:


> ....which brings up a good point, was Glorfindel indeed some sort of a wraith? oooh this will be fun, but its not the topic for this thread, so off to start a new thread I go! thanks for the idea Eledhwen!


You could stick a link in here; you're probably not the only one who likes such discussions.


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## HLGStrider (Aug 17, 2004)

I just thought of a really weird analogy I REALLY like.


What if the rings are doorways to the wraith world?

I know this sounds funny, but think about Eld's post. It suggest two paralel worlds taking up the same space. Within one square foot there are two square feet, a wraith foot and a (let's call it here) real foot. Where the Wraith's stood there are their wraith bodies as we see them here (their cloaks, their horses, the black breath), and in the same space but in the other world their true wraith beings.

A Ring acts as a door way to a real person which allows them to, for a time, enter the wraith world. They do, however, remain in this world in essence (in material forms such as weight and the ability to deflect sunlight. . shadows). As the Ring grows to control them it gradually stops their return passage from the Wraith world to the Real world until not even the essence remains (no more shadow, no more weight). 

Perhaps Sauron's power gives the Wraiths the ability to filter back, but when Sauron is out of power they lose it. Also, perhaps, fire and water have the ability to deprive them of this filtering back and that is why they fear it and must return to Sauron after being uncloaked to receive it again.

What do you think?


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## Walter (Aug 17, 2004)

Eledhwen said:


> I think the phrase 'neither living nor dead' would describe wraith-hood to me. A wraith. The OED says it is the ghost or ghostly image of someone, especially when seen shortly before or after their death. Plainly Tolkien means something more by the word. An other-worldliness is suggested.


Indeed, the OED describes a 'wraith' as 'a ghost or a ghostlike image of someone'. And Tolkien used the word mostly for his Nazgûl, the Ring-wraiths, but occasionally also in different contexts to refer to such ghostlike images of someone.

But in his poem "Mythopoeia", the context and meaning is different:



> Blessed are the men of Noah's race that build
> their little arks, though frail and poorly filled,
> and steer through winds contrary towards a wraith,
> a rumour of a harbour guessed by faith.



Here 'wraith' is explained as 'a rumor of a harbor guessed by faith', which can still be considered a ghostlike image, but what could throw a somewhat different light at this line from the poem is the fragment

_Westra lage wegas rehtas, nu isti sa wraithas_,

which in _The Lost Road_ occurs to Alboin in a dream and is translated as 'a straight road lay westward, now it is bent', and thus _wraithas_ here means 'bent'.

Shippey, in _JRR Tolkien-Author of the Century_ (p.287), claims that the language here is Old or Proto-Germanic. (Lateron, in the "Notion Club Papers", the same fragment appears, but there has wraikwas instead of wraithas.)

Interesting also are Shippey's etymological explanations regarding wraith (ibid. p.122), where he suggests that 'wraith' derives from Old English _wriðan_, to 'writhe'. Other - related - words are 'wreath', something that is twisted, 'wroth' - an old adjective meaning 'angry' - and the corresponding noun 'wrath', which survived.

Thus Tolkien's concept of wraiths, as represented by the Nazgûl, probably portrays not merely ghosts in the traditional sense, they were also - implicitly - 'twisted' and 'angry'...


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## AustintheGreen (Aug 26, 2004)

Were the Nazgul invisible themselves? I don't remember their physical description. If not, they must have walked all the way back to Mordor after being unhorsed at the Ford.


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## YayGollum (Jun 13, 2008)

I was looking around for a thread pertaining to my question before I went and made something new. This is close enough, I suppose. Is there any information that I don't already know about Morgul type blades? I don't have all of those History Of Middle Earth books, so mayhaps something extra is in there about them. Or some alternate versions of them. Or something that they might have been based on. I can't think of any other creepy vampiric type things mentioned. Merely wondering. The information that I have is probably just what everyone else has, from that The Lord Of The Rings story.

And towards the question of this thread, why not ---> The superly boring Frodo's wraithizing came about effectively entirely due to the Morgul type blade. Sure, a case could be made that the One Ring thing sped things up a bit, since a quote was dropped that anybody wearing the thing would eventually become a wraith, but it seems to me to be that the increased rate would have been negligible. All were quite astonished that the superly boring Frodo resisted it as long as he did, anyways.


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## Valandil (Jun 19, 2008)

The Men who received their Rings of Power from Sauron took approximately 500 years (+/- 50 - I don't know if we have the exact date they were given, but I think between 1700 and 1800 Second Age), which was 500 years of regular use.

Gollum had the One Ring for somewhat less than 500 years - and his use of it became more intermittent in later years.

I suspect Gollum was well on his way to wraith-hood. He had certainly been physically transformed by the Ring already. It might have taken 200-300 more years than it took for a Man, if Hobbits are of tougher fiber, and he used it less frequently. But then again, this was the One, not one of the Nine. But I think Gollum was pretty close, and that would have soon been his fate.


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## Gordis (Jun 19, 2008)

Valandil said:


> I suspect Gollum was well on his way to wraith-hood. He had certainly been physically transformed by the Ring already.



I would say Gollum was physically transformed not by the Ring, but by his solitary life in a dark cave. He became adapted to darkness, to surviving on raw fish, to swimming and to climbing rocks. The Ring only permitted him to survive long enough to get adapted to this peculiar environment.

If Bilbo had the Ring for 500 years while living in Bag End he would have been entirely different from Gollum.


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## HLGStrider (Jun 19, 2008)

I think someone would've commented on the "immortal" Hobbit if that happened. The ring had a way of driving Gollum from society. It probably would have done the same to Bilbo somehow.


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## Prince of Cats (Jun 19, 2008)

HLGStrider said:


> It probably would have done the same to Bilbo somehow.



Didn't it?


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## Ithrynluin (Jun 20, 2008)

If you're referring to Bilbo being something of an outsider and eccentric, I would say he was like that even before he got the Ring.


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## HLGStrider (Jun 20, 2008)

Or he could be referring to the fact that Bilbo did eventually leave the Shire. I wasn't taking that into account because he left the ring behind which probably wasn't in the ring's design/best interest. Perhaps this was the ring's influence and it simply hadn't accounted for anyone having the ability to give it up . . . or perhaps it was just Bilbo longing for one last real adventure and he would've eventually left with or without the ring. No way to be sure.


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