# Gandalf and Tom



## Merry (May 13, 2002)

I have just finished reading Many Partings for the third time and I was interested by the part where Gandalf leaves the hobbits to go and chat with Tom B.

Was this just a farewell chat and a reminisce about the good old days before Men and Elves or was he telling Tom that he was leaving and that the world no longer belonged to such spirits as them??

Any ideas why Gandalf went out of his way to see Tom?


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## Camille (May 13, 2002)

I do not know... maybe was a little chat about old times...
it is a mistery


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## Eledhwen (May 13, 2002)

Perhaps Gandalf wanted to ask Tom why he sat on his backside doing nothing while Middle Earth teetered on the brink of destruction. Seriously, though, I have pondered on the fact that the One Ring had no effect on Tom Bombadil. This must mean that he didn't come into any of the categories of beings written in the runes on the One Ring: 3 (Elves); 7 (Dwarves); 9 (Men); 1 (Sauron, or the Maiar). Hobbits, too, though distantly related to Men, were distant enough for the Ring to be very slow to control them, but not distant enough to be unaffected by it (ie: it still renders them invisible, and finally took control of Frodo at Mount Doom). Tom Bombadil was able to pop the ring on his finger and not disappear. Also, Frodo could not hide from him by wearing the Ring. What kind of being is he? All the lower orders of beings have been accounted for, so maybe he is a Vala, secretly dispatched to ME but not allowed to interfere. This is pure speculation with no literary backup, and presents another problem: Who is Goldberry, the River Daughter? If someone's read something I haven't and knows more, please tell.


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## DRavisher (May 13, 2002)

Quite interesting question. I think that Gandalf went to Tom to simply talk about anything and everything. I am not under the imperssion that Tom is Valar or anything, but I do wonder what he really is. I guess the reason he didn't bother to involve himself in the business with the ring was because he never leaves his area, as it is said in the counsel of elrond. He has established an area of which he is master, but outside that area he never goes.


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## Gil-Galad (May 13, 2002)

Ops.I believe Tom is Vala or Maia so he probably knows Gandalf from the times when they lived together in Valinor.I suppose Gandalf and Tom chatted about old times and stories and probably about the future,because Gandalf was going to leave ME.


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## Elu Thingol (May 14, 2002)

Tom cannot be Maia or Vala as Ulairi clearly points out on this page
http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3926&perpage=15&pagenumber=2


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## Eonwe (May 14, 2002)

IMO there is a much better thread here:

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2367

which clearly shows that you cannot draw a conclusion. "cannot be Maia or Vala" I don't think is correct, based on the NUMEROUS quotes in the referenced thread, and in the fact that in letters the author specifically states Tom is an enigma.

The most curious thing that Gandalf says is:


> They halted and Frodo looked south wistfully. 'I should dearly like to see the old fellow again,' he said. 'I wonder how he is getting on?'
> 'As well as ever, you may be sure,' said Gandalf. 'Quite untroubled; and I should guess, not much interested in anything that we have done or seen, unless perhaps in our visits to the Ents...'



Why would Bombadil be interested in Ents? _...where's Bucky, I gotta duck before he gets here..._ LOL


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## Sam_Gamgee (May 15, 2002)

Tom is a Valar and gandalf is a Maia. Maia often conversed with thier higher relatives the valar. they both came from Valinor when the elves left. and tom is most likely a vala of the forest or the trees and your hear elrond say he is a master only to of himself and his domain and gandalf says he would be interested in the ents like it is posted above me. (this is my theory, if you wanna know more PM me)


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## Eledhwen (May 15, 2002)

*Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the*

Tom seems to be old enough to be a Vala. If I remember rightly, the only other created beings who could have been that old are those of Melkor (eg: Ungoliant). Tom's origins are not specified, so we can only speculate; but Iluvatar may have created other beings not mentioned in Tolkien's creation myth, just as the Bible doesn't specify the creation of all the heavenly beings. Melkor's rebellious creation song also had the effect of upsetting the songs of those Valar who could hear him, and Tolkien doesn't say what effect, if any, this had on the creation itself; though it is unlikely to be good, and therefore unlikely to be Tom Bombadil. I tend towards the assumption that Tom is a higher order than the Maiar, but may not have been a Vala. (phew!)


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## Walter (May 15, 2002)

Many speculations have been ventured about Tom's origin and how he could be "categorized", but Tolkien purposely avoided to give specific reference about this:


> And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally).


however, we can get some background information:


> Among other stories begun but soon abandoned was the tale of Tom Bombadil, which is set in “The days of King Bonhedig” and describes a character who is clearly to be the hero of the tale: “Tom Bombadil was the name of one of the oldest inhabitants of the kingdom; but he was a hale and hearty fellow. Four foot high in his boots he was, and three feet broad. He wore a tall hat with a blue feather, his jacket was blue, and his boots were yellow.”
> 
> That was as far as the story ever reached on paper, but Tom Bombadil was a well-known figure in the Tolkien family, for the character was based on a Dutch doll that belonged to Michael. The doll looked very splendid with the feather in its hat, but John did not like it and one day stuffed it down the lavatory. Tom was rescued. and survived to become the hero of a poem by the children's father, "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil”. which was published in the Oxford Magazine in 1934. It tells of Tom's encounters with “Goldberry, the River-woman's daughter”, with the “Old Man Willow” which shuts him up in a crack of its bole (an idea, Tolkien once said, that probably came in part from Arthur Rackham's tree-drawings), with a family of badgers, and with a “Barrow-wight”, a ghost from a prehistoric grave of the type found on the Berkshire Downs not far from Oxford. By itself, the poem seems like a sketch for something longer, and when possible successors to The Hobbit were being discussed in 1937 Tolkien suggested to his publishers that he might expand it into a more substantial tale, explaining that Tom Bombadil was intended to represent “the spirit of the (vanishing) Oxford and Berkshire countryside”. This idea was not taken up by the publishers, but Tom and his adventures subsequently found their way into The Lord of the Rings.


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## Walter (May 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Merry _
> Any ideas why Gandalf went out of his way to see Tom?





> 'But if you would know, I am turning aside soon. I am going to have a long talk with Bombadil: such a talk as I have not had in all my time. He is a moss-gatherer, and I have been a stone doomed to rolling. But my rolling days are ending, and now we shall have much to say to one another.'


TRotK - Homeward Bound

Alas - I haven't found more about this...


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## Walter (May 15, 2002)

Well I found a little more in the HoME - Sauron defeated...

It seems Tolkien just used this turn to find an "excuse" for Gandalf not being with them when the Hobbits have to deal with "The Scouring of the Shire". In the first draft Gandalf is still present at the Brandywine Bridge, then there exists a note that suggests that Gandalf should stay at Bree. Gandalf's departure to seek out Tom Bombadil seems to exist only in the final version...


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## Lantarion (May 15, 2002)

Yes, I think the "excuse"-theory is very close if not completely correct. He wanted the hobbits to sort their home-troubles themselves, to give them a chance to excert their new skills for something important.
And about the Ents: I think Tom would be interested in hearing of the Ents because they are among the oldest living 'creatures' (mightiest of the Olvar) of Middle-Earth, after himself. And that is why he could not be a Vala or Maia. A Maia, of course not because the first being to enter Arda was Melkor, and the Maiar came only some time later. A Vala, again no because unless Tom is Melkor he couldn't have been there before him.


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## Walter (May 15, 2002)

Btw. Ponti, when you refer to the Ents as the "mightiest of the olvar" do You think that Ents should/could be counted among the _olvar_? I mean they are supposed to be their "guardians", to "go among them", but can they actually be counted in?


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## pohuist (May 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Pontifex _
> * And that is why he could not be a Vala or Maia. A Maia, of course not because the first being to enter Arda was Melkor, and the Maiar came only some time later. A Vala, again no because unless Tom is Melkor he couldn't have been there before him. *



There were Ainur who dod not go to Arda at all...


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