# Imported Food



## Barliman Butterbur (Apr 10, 2008)

My wife gave me some (for me) jarring information: Whole Foods markets imports their frozen broccoli from China! Yep, there it is in capital letters, just below the the organic logos: PRODUCT OF CHINA.

China: the country that has brought the Tibetans over 50 years of brutal repression ( http://www.tampabay.com/opinion/letters/article435263.ece ), that is choking their own people to death with killer cancer-causing smog ( http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1223/p16s01-sten.html ), that brings you lead-loaded toys for your kids ( http://www.slate.com/id/2172289/ ), antifreeze-loaded toothpaste ( http://www.klannet.net/blog/?p=6 ) for your whole family, and contaminated medicine ( http://snipurl.com/2411b-rednel ) for grandma now brings you ORGANIC PRODUCE through the good auspices of Whole Foods Markets!

I sent off a question to Whole Foods: "I notice your 365 organic broccoli is imported from China. What other such produce do you import from China?" We'll see if and how they answer. Whatever their answer, I'll pass it on to you. Meantime, I exhort to you to READ THE LABELS if you intend buying their frozen produce, organic or non-organic.

And while I'm at it, Whole Foods trumpets their low prices. But how can they have low prices when their customers must pay their import expenses? As far as I can, I buy only American-made products, and that includes food. Why should I pay for oranges from New Zealand if I can buy them here at a local farmer's market and help local growers and keep my oranges prices lower because I don't have to pay import duties? I suggest you think about that. 

Barley

(I submit this is NOT a political subject. It is a PUBLIC SERVICE/FAMILY SAFETY ANNOUNCEMENT.)


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## Gothmog (Apr 10, 2008)

It does, however, crowd the limit  and also runs the risk of turning into a political discussion. If such happens the the discussion will have to move over to Project Evil.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Apr 10, 2008)

Gothmog said:


> It does, however, crowd the limit  and also runs the risk of turning into a political discussion. If such happens the the discussion will have to move over to Project Evil.



Understood. I just wanted to post a warning: China's imports don't have a wonderful safety record. The danger to American citizens and their families transcends the politics of the thing. I'm just saying "be careful when you purchase food."

Barley


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## Firawyn (Apr 14, 2008)

> (I submit this is NOT a political subject. It is a PUBLIC SERVICE/FAMILY SAFETY ANNOUNCEMENT.)



I think that this effectively stated that Barley had no intention of making this into a debate.

I appreciate the warning anyhow.


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## Eledhwen (Aug 17, 2008)

I just went to check my frozen broccoli, and there is no country of origin on it, so it must be from within the European Community at least; probably Lincolnshire or Norfolk (most food's grown there).

I prefer to buy fresh brassicas, as they retain too much water when frozen; so most of the time I'm eating British foods, which have extremely stringent health standards.

My main gripe at the moment is the insidious addition of Aspartame to various foods. It gives me intense joint pain in my hips and knees, which I suffered from for about 18 months before realising all I had to do was ditch the 'no added sugar' drinks. The pain vanished within 36 hours. I resolved not to take any substitute sweeteners, and kept them out of my diet ... or so I thought! I am staying home this weekend while my husband and kids visit relatives in London, because I had bad back pain. I had been eating flavoured crisps, and today I glanced at the ingredients (as I am increasingly wont to do) and noticed they even put Aspartame in there! I swore. My favourite supermarket now uses only sucralose as a sweetener. I won't even drink that; but why does everyone else keep on using Aspartame?


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## Prince of Cats (Aug 17, 2008)

Why does everyone keep using Aspartame?

A very good question. It's made by Monsanto, who makes tons of terrible chemicals (like Agent Orange). They have much of Washington in their pockets so they probably do the same with 'food' manufacturers


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## nodnarb (Aug 17, 2008)

u could do like me and just not eat nasty brocolli


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## Firawyn (Aug 17, 2008)

I must admit I'm not a fan of broccoli. Greenbeans on the other hand...YUM! I'll eat them fresh, cooked, or frozen...canned not so much though.


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## Illuin (Aug 17, 2008)

Yes, but there are some Broccoli and cheese delectables that are quite surprising. I once thought as you. Expand thy horizons my dear young Firawyn .


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## Eledhwen (Aug 18, 2008)

I'm glad I've got Alcuin's post on email; it's very interesting. Our leaders are holding the purse strings, but the contents of the purse belong to China, from what I can see; thanks to the imprudent purchase of too much broccoli etc.

Are those purse strings? Or are they just enough rope ....?

In our household, we don't spend more than we earn. It galls me that our leaders don't have the same prudence with the national treasury.


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## Firawyn (Aug 19, 2008)

Illuin said:


> Yes, but there are some Broccoli and cheese delectables that are quite surprising. I once thought as you. Expand thy horizons my dear young Firawyn .




*squirms* Had braces. Broccoli is really no fun with braces. So I protest.


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## nodnarb (Aug 19, 2008)

broccoli is no fun with taste buds


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## Prince of Cats (Aug 19, 2008)

broccoli is no fun in an elevator


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## Alcuin (Aug 19, 2008)

Here are links to the _Codex Alimentarius_ (“Food Laws”) of the United Nations. This is what controls food imports and exports, and this is ultimately the basis of all subsequent treaties and trade agreements regarding trade in foodstuffs. If you have never heard of it, you should educate yourself.

This isn’t a joke, and it isn’t make-believe. This is the real thing: this is the treaty that controls what you get to eat, unless you grow it yourself.


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## Uminya (Aug 20, 2008)

The benefit of food imports is that you can get things not found in the US, and you can get things that are not in-season. There are a lot of foods from Canada, Mexico, Germany, the UK and Japan that I regularly buy and are quite good. I draw a distinction between produce and "made" foods, however.

Don't forget, however, that a lot of your American produce is harvested by underpaid, illegal-immigrant workers.


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## Alcuin (Aug 20, 2008)

The reason President Reagan eased restrictions on illegal immigrant workers was to harvest California produce. The statement he read on November 6, 1986, can be found here. Until then, immigration into the United States was strictly and rigorously controlled. Every January, all resident aliens had to register with the Immigration and Naturalization Service “at any United States Post Office” or be automatically declared illegal aliens and arrested, imprisoned, and deported. (All us old folks can remember the little public service announcement cartoon that started playing every year at the beginning of November and ran three months until the end of January.)




Ciryaher said:


> Don't forget, however, that a lot of your American produce is harvested by underpaid, illegal-immigrant workers.


Yeah, you’re right. We Americans are awful people. Funny thing about that, though: those underpaid, illegal-immigrant workers don’t seem too eager to return home. Since they are so mistreated in the ’States, I wonder why?


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## Barliman Butterbur (Aug 21, 2008)

God God, this thread has devolved into a referendum on broccoli... 

Barley


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## HLGStrider (Aug 21, 2008)

Clears her throat to remind people that this shouldn't get political.


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## Uminya (Aug 22, 2008)

Alcuin said:


> Yeah, you’re right. We Americans are awful people.



If you can find where I said that, sweet pea, then you're more than welcome to quote it.


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## Alcuin (Aug 22, 2008)

Ciryaher said:


> Don't forget, however, that a lot of your American produce is harvested by underpaid, illegal-immigrant workers.


My sincere apologies, good *Ciryaher*. <bows> Maintaining a class of underpaid, illegal-immigrant workers is indeed a boon to good order and civil society. </bows> No offense intended: just a little light-hearted sarcasm. 



Eledhwen said:


> I'm glad I've got Alcuin's post on email…


Since it now seems appropriate, here’s the post, which I deleted: I considered it a bit beyond the normal discussions on the board. Some of the on-line editing will be different: I can’t see exactly how the post originally looked, only the notes that I kept.

- | -

Just a note before I begin: *The following is not politics: it is economics. If you can’t tell the difference, your education has been political, not practical.*

Net importation of food into the United States (and Europe and the UK) is only the latest trade status over many decades of these nations and trading blocs. To some degree, it is expected: how else will the subsistence farmers of Africa, for instance, rise from their poverty unless they can produce surplus food and sell it to others? It is a matter of critical importance to global economics, and is the reason given for the collapse of the Doha trade round of the World Trade Organization. (I’ll not go into discussion of the causes of the trade frictions: that would be politics; but I do urge you to view the “narrative” presented in the press about Doha with extreme caution and a more-than-merely-healthy skepticism.)

This is the current trade balance of the United States compared to the size of its economy. Approximately one-third is with China, which (at the time of this posting) is tied with the United States as the world’s single largest exporter: the US-China trade balance is currently running in China’s favor by over 4 times. (I.e.: the US imports from China more than four times what China imports from the US. That’s an improvement: a couple of years ago, the ratio was 6 times.) Another three-eighths of the current trade deficit of the United States is oil imports (by Bureau of the Census freight-on-board method).





Unfortunately, the United State imports about twice what it exports. In exchange, it gives the rest of the world IOUs in the form of US dollars. One way of examining the size of this imbalance without regard to the current dollar amount in discussion is to look at the ratio of imports to exports, which is pretty jaw-dropping. The US hasn’t run a current account surplus since 1983, although it came close in 1992. As a result, nearly three-quarters of the US dollars currently in existence in the world today are outside the United States.




A weaker US dollar has helped the imbalance: one of the bogey-men of American policy (and this borders on “politics,” but the economics is pretty solid) is the “strong dollar policy.” A “strong dollar policy” may help financial firms, but it does little to ameliorate trade imbalances, and any first-year economics or business student should be able to cite David Ricardo or Adam Smith to explain how maintaining an artificially strong currency will inevitably lead to massive trade deficits and an eventual currency crisis. (Besides, the debtor has to sell his prized possessions, such as the house he can no longer afford, or his favorite brewery, to pay down the debt.) 

Let’s make the picture nice and clear. Here’s what the United States owes its trading partners. Oh, and let’s make something else clear: this chart _*doesn’t include any interest due*_ that’s been compounding for the past 50 years. 




(US GDP is about $14 trillion. That means that, before any interest due, the cumulative trade deficit the US owes is about one-half year’s worth of everything the US makes, sells, trades, and produces, including the economic value of all government activity and spending, education (including public schools), church and civic activity, and “service economy” activity such as lawyers, doctors, acting and drama, taxicab drivers - you name it.)

Finally, the last thing we need is a trade war or import restrictions. Such things lead to what Kondratiev called a “trough war.” (World War II, the American Civil War, and the French Revolution are all examples of trough wars. They’re nasty - _avoid them!_) Instead, it would be better to recognize that people who live in other nations deserve the wages they earn – and the right to purchase reasonably-priced goods from North America and Europe, which means that the euro and the US and Canadian dollars probably have to decline – not against one another, but against the rupee, the yen, and the yuan. (A better, more correct way of saying this is that the rupee, the yen, and the yuan need to rise against the euro, Sterling, and the US and Canadian dollars to better reflect rising affluence in India, Japan, and China, among other nations.) 

In the meantime, Americans and Europeans need to get back into the business of making things the rest of the world needs and will gladly purchase at a reasonable price, and quit investing in the latest sure-fire, AAA-rated structured product.



- | -

That’s the end of the post *Eledhwen* read before I killed it. 

For more on what constitutes good investment these days, I recommend this from Google. (Some language may not be appropriate for younger TTFers; but, hey! this is high finance.) For a more serious, in-depth discussion of how we ended up in this kind of trade situation, I am rather partial to this interview in two parts. (_Oops – those last two have been pulled. Oh, shaw! I’ll see if I can find another link for you._)

- | - 

Found a working link! This is John Fortune & John Bird on the _South Bank Show_. It isn't quite politically correct, but it sure is on target!


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## Illuin (Aug 23, 2008)

> from Barley
> _God God, this thread has devolved into a referendum on broccoli..._


 
No, not devolved. But it's not a bad idea to poke holes in a potato when you cook it in the microwave .


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## Firawyn (Aug 24, 2008)

Nutrition? What's that? I live off of Chilli-Mac and PBJ, so I really have no place to talk!


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