# Tharbad



## Firawyn (Nov 13, 2005)

Okay in LotR, there's a city called Tharbad mentioned. I've looked it all up, the name awas only mentioned a couple times, and it does appear on maps. blah blah blah.

Okay, my question, comment, thingy is, does Tharbad appear in any other Tolkien works? A while ago, I was in a RPG called Tharbad Rebuilt (Elgee aught to remember that one) and I really got a deep...oh I don't know, an intrest I guess in the city. 

It died because of floods, but according to Tolkien, it was never rebuilt (ha, he really aught to ck out some RPsm lol) What was it really like when it was alive and thriving, a great city of gondor? Did it get rebuilt after the WR?

More or less, I'm looking for info on Tharbad.


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## Maeglin (Nov 13, 2005)

I don't have any of my books or maps with me here at school (except Sil.), so I can't be entirely sure.....but I think it was Gondor's great seaport in the southwest corner of the area of Middle-earth in which LOTR takes place, and I think it had a fairly high elf population. Of course, since I have no resources with me right now I could be way off, but hey, at least I can say I tried.


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## Alcuin (Nov 14, 2005)

Tharbad was an inland port and crossing point on the Gwathló (Greyflood) originally constructed by the Númenóreans and later maintained jointly by both Arnor and Gondor. The main road between the two kingdoms crossed a stone bridge at Tharbad, and “a considerable garrison of soldiers, mariners and engineers had been kept there until the seventeenth century of the Third Age” to keep the bridge and its causeways. (This is the same road that crossed the Fords of Isen and went on through Rohan to Minas Tirith; north of Tharbad, it was called the Greenway in Bree, with its terminus at the ruined capital of Arthedain, Fornost Erain.)

Tharbad was on the southern border of what was properly Eriador, the north side of the river in Minhiriath in the old kingdom of Arnor, and the south side in Enedwaith, which belonged to neither kingdom. 

Tharbad was apparently constructed in the Second Age by the Númenóreans as an inland port from which to ship timber for their shipbuilding activites. The Gwathló was so-called because the forests covered the shores of the river (shadow-river, if you will), but the Númenóreans denuded the forests so that in the Third Age, no forests covered the region. (The Old Forest in the north near Buckland and Fangorn in south were what remained of the vast timberlands.) In _Unfinished Tales_, there is a note that Aldarion may have met with Galadriel and Celeborn near Tharbad. Also during the Second Age, it seems that the Elven forces made some defense at Tharbad against Sauron’s invading army during War between the Elves and Sauron around 1700 Second Age, when Sauron seized the Rings of Power and destroyed Ost-in-Edhil.

The people of Arnor and its successor kingdoms abandoned their part of the maintenance of Tharbad after the Great Plagues of 1636 Third Age during which most of the people of Minhiriath died. Tolkien is quoted in this footnote in _Unfinished Tales_:


> In the early days of the kingdoms the most expeditious route from one to the other (except for great armaments) was found to be by sea to the ancient port at tile head at the estuary of the Gwathló and so to the riverport of Tharbad, and thence by the Road. The ancient sea-port and its great quays were ruinous, but with long labour a port capable of receiving seagoing vessels had been made at Tharbad, and a fort raised there on great earthworks on both sides of the river, to guard the once famed Bridge of Tharbad. The ancient port was one of the earliest ports of the Númenóreans, begun by the renowned mariner-king Tar-Aldarion, and later enlarged and fortified. It was called Lond Daer Enedh, the Great Middle Haven (as being between Lindon in the North and Pelargir on the Anduin).


 Gondor continued to maintain a presence at Tharbad until 2912 of the Third Age, when floods ruined the bridge and causeways, leading to a final abandonment of the town. This was 106 years before Boromir reported to the Council of Elrond that he had lost his horse there. About this, Tolkien also notes, 


> When Boromir made his great journey from Gondor to Rivendell – the courage and hardihood required is not fully recognized in the narrative — the North-South Road no longer existed except for the crumbling remains of the causeways, by which a hazardous approach to Tharbad might be achieved, only to find ruins on dwindling mounds, and a dangerous ford formed by the ruins of the bridge, impassable if the river had not been there slow and shallow – but wide.


 Apparently the Black Riders crossed the Greyflood at Tharbad, too. They captured a Dunlending who was one of Saruman’s spies near there. This Dunlending agreed to help the Nazgûl rather than return to Saruman in exchange for his life. (This may have been the squint-eyed Southerner lurking around Bill Ferny’s house.) Saruman used the crossing as his means of transporting goods and news and information to and from Isengard and South Farthing. (How the Rangers led by Halbarad reached the Fords of Isen is not told; since Elladan and Elrohir were with them, they may have departed from Rivendell following the same route as the Company of the Ring, which meant that they did not need to cross at Tharbad.)

Presumably, Aragorn Elessar restored the crossing at Tharbad in order to reconnect the primary land route between the two parts of his kingdom.


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## Valandil (Dec 6, 2005)

Hey Al - it is with great trepidation that I challenge your assertions, but I think I'll do so anyway.

I agree that Gondor and Arthedain/Arnor most likely lost contact for 300 or so years beginning at the time of the Great Plague.

However, I had always thought that Gondor would have been first to give it up - so I disagree with you about which party withdrew after 1636. Now naturally, Arthedain had a persistently inconvenient problem up at the other end of the kingdom - those bullies from Angmar. However, IIRC - Gondor abandoned all her watchposts at Mordor after the Great Plague - which were much closer to home. Even though Arthedain was undoubtedly weaker at the time, she had geography on her side - and I don't think that Gondor had as significant a navy as they had before the mid-1400's (and sailing around to Tharbad could get hazardous with Umbar's Corsairs lurking in the waters all about).

I also think those years were relatively peaceful in the North. Araphor had come to the throne amid some great difficulties in 1409... but then he ruled until 1589 and there is no indication that the rest of his reign was anything but peaceful. His son, Argeleb II, even granted the Shire to the halflings - a growing population. If Arthedain were to retract forces from Tharbad in 1636 - I think they would have already done so. But I think it's more likely they still had them there. The city WAS just down the road a bit.

I CERTAINLY don't think Gondor maintained a garrison there until 2912, when the city was flooded and abandoned. About 400 years before this, Gondor had granted all of Calenardhon to the Eotheod of Eorl, partly because their population there was so sparse. It would seem strange to hold onto a garrison so far beyond THAT.

Perhaps Tharbad developed into a sort of independent city-state (kind of like The Shire did) - almost surely after the fall of Arthedain (unless Gondor was still hanging around at that time - about 1974-75 - but I doubt it) - but maybe before if Arthedain could no longer hold onto it.

Any further thoughts?

Why do you think Gondor had stayed there for so long?


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## Alcuin (Dec 6, 2005)

Valandil, I will quickly shy away from any contest with you over the history of Arnor, and concede your greater knowledge of the subject!

I had based my assumptions on the following passages. The first is from _Unfinished Tales_, “The History of Galadriel and Celeborn”, “Appendix D: The Port of Lond Daer”, and is part of a more extensive discussion of Tharbad:


> …the great North-South Road, which was the chief route of communication between the Two Kingdoms except by sea, ran through it from Tharbad to the Fords of Isen (Ethraid Engrin). Before the decay of the North Kingdom and the disasters that befell Gondor, indeed until the coming of the Great Plague in Third Age 1636, both kingdoms shared an interest in this region, and together built and maintained the Bridge of Tharbad and the long causeways that carried the road to it on either side of the Gwathló and Mitheithel across the fens in the plains of Minhiriath and Enedwaith. A considerable garrison of soldiers, mariners and engineers had been kept there until the seventeenth century of the Third Age.


That supports your argument about a mid-Third Age abandonment. However, there is a bit more, in _Return of the King_, Appendix B, “The Third Age”, the entry for 2912:


> 2912 Great floods devastate Enedwaith and Minhiriath. Tharbad is ruined and deserted.


So I think that sounds rather like your idea of an “independent city-state,” perhaps something like Bree? 

As for my misconception – well, I’ve always rather been taken by Tharbad, thriving port that it once had been with its famous bridge. How many Númenórean bridges are mentioned? The Brandywine Bridge, the Bridge over the Hoarwell (the “Last Bridge”), and the Bridge at Osgiliath. Maybe there are some others I’ve left out; but the Bridge of Tharbad just struck my fancy early on, and I am afraid I had confused the final abandonment of the town and its at the end of the Third Age with the first withdrawal following the Great Plague in the middle of the Third Age.


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## Valandil (Dec 6, 2005)

Yes - I think those four bridges are the only significant ones we hear about. I don't remember now where this is from exactly, but the Brandywine Bridge is also referred to as the Bridge of Stonebows (I think BB is the name the Hobbits gave for it - since the name "Brandywine" was their name for the Baranduin - so I think 'Stonebows' may be an older name). I wish there was as interesting a name for the "Last Bridge" - I don't know of any other for that one.

Frankly - once I read your earlier post, I realized that my own assumptions about Arnor keeping a presence in Gondor were based on conjecture, just as much as yours may have been that Gondor kept a presence longer. I was interested to see if you were aware of any conclusive information one way or the other.

Note that the Flood of Tharbad in 2912 followed immediately on the heels of The Fell Winter of 2911-12. Must've been some massive snow-melt all up the river valley... maybe together with degradation of levees and other protections (maybe some natural) - after all, the city had possibly survived for over 4500 years!

Probably just coincidence, but Aragorn's great grandfather, Argonui, died the same year as that Flood - 2912. I don't think he was drowned though... he seemed to live out a full life according to how his line was going.

And... I don't think I've earned the deference you give me. I'm hardly an expert... just a very interested amateur!


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## Alcuin (Dec 6, 2005)

From “Appendix ii”, “The Battle of the Fords of Isen” in _Unfinished Tales_:


> In ancient days the southern and eastern bounds of the North Kingdom had been the Greyflood; the western bounds of the South Kingdom was the Isen. To the land between (the Enedwaith or “middle region”) few Númenóreans had ever come, and none had settled there. In the days of the Kings it was part of the realm of Gondor, but it was of little concern to them, except for the patrolling and upkeep of the great Royal Road. This ... had to descend to the west lands about the lower Greyflood, which it crossed on a raised causeway leading to a great bridge at Tharbad. ... When the days of the Kings ended (1975-2050) and the waning of Gondor began, [the Dunlendings] ceased in fact to be subjects of Gondor; the Royal Road was unkept in Enedwaith, and the Bridge of Tharbad becoming ruinous was replaced only by a dangerous ford. The bounds of Gondor were the Isen, and the Gap of Calenardhon (as it was then called).


 This passage has a footnote to it that the definitions of the boundaries of Gondor are contradictory; the footnote appears to be Christopher Tolkien’s rather than his father’s. I rather assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that as Gondor’s power waxed while Arnor’s power waned, Gondor had a tendency to encroach, as it were, on Enedwaith; but I’d have to find something more definitive than this.


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## Valandil (Dec 6, 2005)

Well - we're told in Appendix A of LOTR that Tarannon was the one who spread Gondor's influence west and south along the coasts - it was apparently before he became king, because on his ascendance he took the name 'Falastur' to commemorate this. Here's the quote:



> With Tarannon, the twelfth king, began the line of the Ship Kings, who built navies and extended the sway of Gondor along the coasts west and south of the mouths of Anduin. To commemorate his victories as Captain of the Hosts, Tarannon took the crown in the name of Falastur 'Lord of the Coasts'



Tarannon reigned from 830 to 913 - so I would say that Gondor effectively took control of the area only sometime after ~800 - and possibly not until one of the later Ship Kings - maybe as late as ~1100 or so. It's possible that Gondor kept the road on the causeway open from the earlier times though - and maintained a garrison at Tharbad to help them effectively do so - even when they did not control the land to either side of it between the Gap of Calenardhon and Tharbad.

It's hard to say exactly what and when, because most of what we have to read is a brief summation of 3000 years of history. Imagine something like that in our own world. There tend to be lots of ebbs and flows over great amounts of time like that.


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## Halasían (Jul 5, 2011)

Only because an RP based in early 4th Age Tharbad is trying to gain traction in the _Erebor to Eldamar_ forum, I decided to bump this fascinating topic.

I think that the 'attrition of years' on both Arnor and Gondor took its toll on Tharbad. Initially a vital city with its strategic river crossing of the north/south road and being a vital seaport, being the furthest navigable point upriver for sea-going ships, it along with the two kingdoms suffered with low population growth and possible migration away to the cities of Gondor. The waning numbers of people in Arnor, Cardolan mainly, and the troubles Gondor had closer to its vital center (Mordor, Easterlings, Black Numenarians, Haradians, etc.) caused the city to steadily decline through the years, when finally after the great flood of 2912 and the bridge fell into ruin, any remaining inhabitants left. Seems like the logical course of progression to me. :*)


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