# The Enchanted River



## Ancalagon (Sep 4, 2002)

*The Enchanted Stream*

_Beorns warning to the party before entering Mirkwood_


> . There is one stream there, I know, black and strong which crosses the path. That you should neither drink or, nor bathe in; for I have heard that it carries enchantment and a great drowsiness and forgetfulness.



Who was responsible for enchanting this particular stream and why?


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## Confusticated (Sep 4, 2002)

While first reading the Hobbit I thought it was the doings of the Necromancer. I haven't given it much thought since, expect that perhaps it was a defense of the Woodelves.

These two just seem the most likely to me, but I see the elves having much more to gain from this Enchantment than would the Necromancer. The mouth of the River starts near Thanduil's hall for one, and the river curves south, as if to serve as a barrier between the elves and the evil away south, or West. The enchantment really wasn't harmful in it'self. Any harm to come of the enchantment would be that it incapacitates and leaves one open to attack. That causes me to think that it is not the work of the Necromancer, any effects to the river by him may have been more evil that this. The dreams caused by this were not unpleasant for Bombur, and may even have been specific to the person effected by it. Had an orc fallen into this they may have had dreams that caused fear, but this is just a guess. Any attack upon the elves coming from the southwest would be hindered by this River.

There is also a chance that it was caused by the spiders.


***********************
Well well well...I forgot that this River flows northword and I will now consider it's source. Which is not Thranduil's realm.


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## Ancalagon (Sep 5, 2002)

I suppose the question is really; who has enough power or sorcery to enchant an entire river? A fast flowing river of such length!


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## Confusticated (Sep 5, 2002)

> Nonetheless Ulmo loves both Elves and Men, and never abandoned them, not even when they lay under the wrath of the Valar. At times he will come unseen to the shores of Middle-earth, or pass far inland up firths of the sea, and there make music upon his great horns, the Ulumúri that are wrought of white shell; and those to whom that music comes hear it ever after in their hearts, and longing for the sea never leaves them again. But mostly Ulmo speaks to those who dwell in Middle-earth with voices that are heard only as the music of water. For all seas, lakes, rivers, fountains and springs are in his government; so that the Elves say that the spirit of Ulmo runs in all the veins of the would



Perhaps...


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## Ancalagon (Sep 5, 2002)

But why this particular river? Why enchant it with forgetfulness and deep sleep? Surely water is too invigorate, give life and sustenance?


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## Confusticated (Sep 5, 2002)

The only good I can think of this River doing is protecting the Elves. Maybe without it the Elves would have been driven further and further north until eventually they were destroyed.
But of all places Thranduil built his halls at the end of it, this may be a clue for someone else but it helps me none.

Another who may have had the power to do this is Galadriel. But I don't even think she existed when the Hobbit was written.


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## Dwimmerlaik (Sep 6, 2002)

Perhaps all of the above,
Perhap's it was a defense mechanism of the forest to protect itself.Maybe the tree's in that part of the wood had sufficient strength to enchant a stream.
Remember the old forest and Fangorn forest had guardians and masters in the form of Tom Bombadil and Fangorn.Mirkwood did not appear to have this,so maybe the tree's devised their own protection.
It certainly wasn't foolproof as the boat on the other side of the stream would attest.
I don't think that it was the elve's that lay this enchantment on the stream,as I believe they had little to fear from this direction(the forest being perilous enough).It would certainly have been a major drain on the elve's to permanently enchant a stream that was only a tributary of the Forest River that their halls were on.


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## Ancalagon (Sep 6, 2002)

Why then would the forest use a river and a boat to protect itself? Surely it would be eaier to simply waylay an unwary traveller by shifting paths, closing particular routes and drawing them deeper into the forest!


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## Dwimmerlaik (Sep 6, 2002)

Dear Ancalagon,
I think you are missing my point,we are talking about a stream,not a river.I also pointed out the defect in this"defence"theory concerning the boat,(I meant that somebody had circumvented this enchanted stream by using a boat:ie-not touching the water).
It would certainly be easier for the tree's to change path's to trap unwary visitor's-if they could.
Maybe the tree's in Mirkwood cannot move like those in the old forest,maybe that stream was the tree's Rubicon,maybe the stream was a trap,maybe I'm wrong.
It's only a theory to add to those already submitted.


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## Diamond Took (Sep 7, 2002)

is this the same stream that bombur falls in and goes to sleep?
*read the hobbit millions of times *
Perhaps tolkien says something about it in his books the simmirillion or the lost tales. have you tried searching on the internet? you may get a proper answer that way.
But i have never read the simmirillion or the book of lost tales so i wouldn't know.


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## Ancalagon (Sep 8, 2002)

Thanks for the suggestions Diamond, I'll keep them in mind


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## pohuist (Sep 11, 2002)

Think about it -- the hobbit is a book about wizards and dragons and treasures and magic. Yeah, magic. Some unnamed wizard did it.


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## Maeglin (Sep 12, 2002)

Perhaps it was Radagast the Brown, we know that he lived near the borders of Mirkwood and talked to the animals often, or maybe it was one of those Blue titled Istari that I can't remember the names of and were left out of the story completely.


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## Theoden (Sep 14, 2002)

interesting theory


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## Confusticated (Oct 2, 2002)

I think that the poisoned water would have become diluted as it met with other steams so whatever was causing this enchantment had to be either a magic spell of some sort which confided it to that one area or something in that area which was constantly contaminating.
I'm thinking more and more that the spiders were poisoning the river. It runs right along side their realm. Ungoliant was able to poison water (though I do not know if this was with an enchanting sleep), so I do not think it is too far fetched that these spiders probably desending from her, could have done the same. Also, we know that the spider's venom would put it's victims to sleep, so perhaps they left traces of this in the water would do the same. If the vemon works in the bloodstream It could probably work if swallowed too. The reason Bombur had pleasant dreams just probably just wishingful thinking on his part. If someone drank a glass of this water safe at home and on a full stomach, the dreams would have probably been different, maybe even unpleasant. I think the dreams of Bombur had nothing to do with the water but only the fact that he was in a deep sleep.


> ...Ungoliant fled from the north and came into the realm of King Thingol, and a terror of darkness was about her; but by the power of Melian she was stayed, and entered not into Neldoreth, but abode long time under the shadow of the precipices in which Dorthonion fell southward. And they became known as Ered Gorgoroth, the Mountains of Terror, and none dared go thither, or pass nigh them; *there life and light were strangled, and there all waters were poisoned.*


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## Celebthôl (Oct 3, 2002)

With the risk of sounding simple maybe tolkien just added an enchanted stream coz it woz a fantasy book and that is the kinda thing you find in thsoe stories

Jiff


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## Theoden (Oct 24, 2002)

I would have to agree with those of you that think it was the elves that enchanted it. Not that I have any proof, but that is just my hunch.


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## falcolite (Oct 24, 2002)

Hmm...Yes, I am thinking that it was the elves also. The trees somehow just don't seem right to me, and the spider theory is somehow not in place. I believe it was the elves that did this little trick, for defense most likely. No proof on my part, true, but it does make the most sence out of the possiblities. 

And who knows if Tolkien even had a cause for this stream, maybe he made it up in his story, not knowing or creating the history on it, and over time forgot about it.


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## Turgon (Dec 8, 2002)

I think a good clue as to the origin of the stream's enchantment can be found at it's source, the Emyn-nu-Fuin, or the Mountains of Mirkwood, or the mountains formerly known as the Emyn Duir. I found the following in a footnote to 'The Disaster of the Gladden Fields' in the Unfinished Tales.



> The Emyn Duir (Dark Mountains) were a group of high hills in the north-east of the Forest, so called because dense fir-woods grew upon their slopes; but they were not yet of evil name. In later days when the shadow of Sauron spread through Greenwood the Great, and changed its name from Eryn Galen to Taur-nu-Fuin (translated Mirkwood), the Emyn Duir became a haunt of many of his most evil creatures, and were called Emyn-nu-Fuin...



Emyn-nu-Fuin, the Mountains under Night, the haunt of Sauron's most evil creatures. Is it possible that there is some connection between the Enchanted Stream and the 'evil name' surrounding its source?


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## Maeglin (Dec 8, 2002)

hmmm well that would sound right and logical except that those who fell in the stream and went to sleep had pleasant dreams of feasting and singing and laughter and getting drunk, so I doubt that just because of that one flaw.


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## Mablung (Dec 8, 2002)

Well if it was a bad dream they would keep trying to wake up but with a pleasent dream they would stay asleep and be easy prey.


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## Maeglin (Dec 8, 2002)

Yes but it still all depends on a big stroke of luck of someone falling in the stream, not many people travelled through Mirkwood if they could help it, after all.


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## Turgon (Dec 8, 2002)

Bombur had a lucky escape, had he been alone when he fell into the stream it would have been certain death, pleasant dreams or no. Not really the kindest of enchantments. 

I quoted the Emyn-nu-Fuin thing more as a point of interest than anything else, but I quite like the idea... After all what kind of deranged maniac would enchant a stream so that all who came in contact with it fell into a deep slumber and either drowned in its waters or were left unconcious upon it's banks - easy prey to all manner of evils?

But then in the same footnote it is also said that at the end of the Second Age Oropher came to dwell in the Western Glens of the Emyn Duil - I guess it's also possible that the enchantment was his work.


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## Maeglin (Dec 8, 2002)

Yes I said that in an earlier post, and that is why I think it is probably his work and not the elves, he cared more about the animals and nature and what not so maybe he would have enchanted it so nothing harmed them.


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## Confusticated (Dec 8, 2002)

Glorfindel, many travelers through may drink from it or wash it in. It seemed to be the only water in the area. So, I don't think there is any _need_ to fall into the stream.



> _Posted by Turgon_
> *But then in the same footnote it is also said that at the end of the Second Age Oropher came to dwell in the Western Glens of the Emyn Duil - I guess it's also possible that the enchantment was his work.*


then...


> _By Glorfindel_
> *Yes I said that in an earlier post, and that is why I think it is probably his work and not the elves, he cared more about the animals and nature and what not so maybe he would have enchanted it so nothing harmed them.*


Oropher? 

Do you mean Radagast?

I think it was either the woodelves or the spiders' poison.


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## Maeglin (Dec 8, 2002)

Yes Oropher is Radagast's real name that he had in Valinor.


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## Confusticated (Dec 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Glorfindel1187 _
> *Yes Oropher is Radagast's real name that he had in Valinor. *


Hmmm, you may be confusing that name with another.

Oropher was Thranduil's father, and King of the Mirkwood/Greenwood elves. Unless I am mistaken?

Maybe you confuse Oropher with Olorin (Gandalf's name in valinor)?


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## Turgon (Dec 8, 2002)

Ah - I can see there is some misunderstanding here. As Nóm has pointed out, I was refering to Oropher father of Thranduil, who was slain during The Last Alliance. Oropher made his dwelling with many of his people in the Glens of Emyn Duil, during the northward migration of the Elves of the Greenwood. This was before Thranduil established his home in the Caverns by the Forest River. In the west Radagast was known as Aiwendil. 

Eeep! Sorry for the confusion Glorfindel!?!


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## Maeglin (Dec 8, 2002)

oh ha ha yeah thats probably it Nom, sorry. Ohhh ok so Turgon was referring to Thranduil's father and I am just confusing myself here, omg I really need to read the Sil again, but I'm in the middle of reading the Hobbit for the 5th time right now.


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 4, 2004)

Beorn warns the company against drinking water from the stream and against leaving the path:



> _The Hobbit; ***** Lodgings  _
> There is one stream there, I know, black and strong which crosses the path. That you should neither drink of, nor bathe in; for I have heard that it carries enchantment and a great drowsiness and forgetfulness. And in the dim shadows of that place I don't think you will shoot anything, wholesome or unwholesome, without straying from the path. That you MUST NOT do, for any reason.


This enchantment doesn't have an evil feel to it, and water is the element that was the least susceptible to being tainted by Melkor and his henchmen.



> _The Hobbit; Flies and Spiders_
> They were thirsty too, for they had none too much water, and in all the time they had seen neither spring nor stream. This was their state when one day they found their path blocked by a running water. It flowed fast and strong but not very wide right across the way, and it was black, or looked it in the gloom. It was well that Beorn had warned them against it, or they would have drunk from it, whatever its colour, and filled some of their emptied skins at its bank. As it was they only thought of how to cross it without wetting themselves in its water.





> _The Hobbit; Flies and Spiders_
> Splash it fell in the water! "Not far enough!" said Bilbo who was peering forward. "A couple of feet and you would have dropped it on to the boat. Try again. I don't suppose the magic is strong enough to hurt you, if you just touch a bit of wet rope."


Whose magic? Just who put the enchantment on the river and why?


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## Starflower (Feb 4, 2004)

hmmm...could it be the Elves of Mirkwood put it there? it seems a bit useless as a deterrent though, all you have to do is get a boat to avoid it. I wonder why it was put there though, unless it was to trap unwary travellers


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## Inderjit S (Feb 4, 2004)

Thranduil maybe to help protect his realm.


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 4, 2004)

Thranduil and his people seems the most plausible answer to me also. It is just that I have never thought of the Sindar and Silvan Elves as 'magic practitioners'. Are there any examples of them doing something 'magical' in the history of Middle-Earth? The only ones I can think of are Melian (who was a Maia) and Galadriel (a Noldo roughly). Perhaps Galadriel put her foot in it... Or some of the Elves of Mirkwood had dwelt in Doriath for a time and had learned this 'lore' from Melian and made use of it (in a very limited way compared to Melian of course).


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## Tumunzahar (Feb 6, 2004)

I think the river might have been enchanted by the power of Sauron, since his shadow fell on a large part of Mirkwood. Or maybe even by the offspring of Ungoliant. On why it only invokes drowsiness I don't have any idea yet.


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 6, 2004)

I don't think Sauron would have tampered with water at all. The way things work in Middle-Earth, Evil always shuns water and avoids it if it possibly can. And inducing drowsiness feels like too benevolent a spell for an evil dark lord like Sauron to use it. Unless he put it there to put unwary travellers to sleep to provide his pet spiders with a tasty snack once in a while!


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## Aulë (Feb 6, 2004)

I'm not sure about this, but didn't the water in Mordor have the same effect on people?


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 6, 2004)

As far as I know, there was no such thing in Mordor. Frodo and Sam drank from one of those water tanks which was set up to service passing orcs, and even they had need of more or less wholesome drinking water (IIRC, Frodo and Sam reported the water was somehow _oily_, but it quenched their thirst just fine). There was a lake to the South - Nurnen - where many slaves laboured and there crops were planted - so the water there must have been 'ok-ish' as well.

However, Frodo and Sam were warned against drinking water from the Morgulduin. I think that's probably what you had in mind, Aulë.



> _The Lord of the Rings; Journey to the Cross-roads_
> When they had finished they stood up. `May no hunger trouble you on the road,' said Faramir. `You have little provision, but some small store of food fit for travellers I have ordered to be stowed in your packs. You will have no lack of water as you walk in Ithilien, but do not drink of any stream that flows from Imlad Morgul, the Valley of Living Death.





> _The Lord of the Rings; Journey to the Cross-roads_
> Frodo looked down on to the road. At any rate nothing was moving on it now. It appeared lonely and forsaken, running down to empty ruins in the mist. But there was an evil feeling in the air, as if things might indeed be passing up and down that eyes could not see. Frodo shuddered as he looked again at the distant pinnacles now dwindling into night, and the sound of the water seemed cold and cruel: the voice of Morgulduin, the polluted stream that flowed from the Valley of the Wraiths.


We are not given any specifics on _why exactly_ the water is not for drinking, but I think it had to be a more ominous reason behind it than mere drowsiness. Probably it was poisoned and whoever drank it could get severe stomach aches and maybe even die (perhaps similar to the poison that was on the morgul blade that stabbed Frodo?).


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## Grond (Feb 7, 2004)

ithrynluin said:


> As far as I know, there was no such thing in Mordor. Frodo and Sam drank from one of those water tanks which was set up to service passing orcs, and even they had need of more or less wholesome drinking water (IIRC, Frodo and Sam reported the water was somehow _oily_, but it quenched their thirst just fine). There was a lake to the South - Nurnen - where many slaves laboured and there crops were planted - so the water there must have been 'ok-ish' as well.
> 
> However, Frodo and Sam were warned against drinking water from the Morgulduin. I think that's probably what you had in mind, Aulë.
> 
> ...


This is an interesting topic. I was always confused by Tolkien's portrayal of this water source in the Hobbit. As you have asked.... Enchanted by whom???? One must remember that the Hobbit is an earlier work with much more "classic" magic that the later works. In the Hobbit, we actually have a purse talking and wolves carrying on conversations and the like. An enchanted river just seems "par for the course." 

I have lately thought more about this and realize that there is a plausible explanation that can be gleened from The Lord of the Rings. We have our own River Enchanters in Goldberry and Tom. Goldberry seems to have a special affinity for the water and is called _River-daughter_.


> _The Fellowship of the Ring, In the House of Tom Bombadil,_
> I had an errand there: gathering water-lilies,
> green leaves and lilies white to please my pretty lady,
> the last ere the year's end to keep them from the winter,
> ...


It sounds to me like either Tom or Goldberry could have enchanted a river is they wanted to.


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 7, 2004)

> One must remember that the Hobbit is an earlier work with much more "classic" magic that the later works. In the Hobbit, we actually have a purse talking and wolves carrying on conversations and the like. An enchanted river just seems "par for the course."


I thought about that also. Another example would be when the Dwarves keep seeing the Elves feast, and the Elves keep disappearing in an instant! This behaviour or even 'skill', certainly isn't a common characteristic of the Elves in the Sil and LOTR!



> It sounds to me like either Tom or Goldberry could have enchanted a river is they wanted to.


I guess you are right, but Mirkwood is so far away from Tom and Goldy's domain. And why would they have put this enchantment on it?


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## Grond (Feb 7, 2004)

ithrynluin said:


> I thought about that also. Another example would be when the Dwarves keep seeing the Elves feast, and the Elves keep disappearing in an instant! This behaviour or even 'skill', certainly isn't a common characteristic of the Elves in the Sil and LOTR!
> 
> 
> I guess you are right, but Mirkwood is so far away from Tom and Goldy's domain. And why would they have put this enchantment on it?


I wasn't necessarily meaning the Tom or the Goldberry. I meant a river-spirit, since by Tom and Goldberry's existence we know that their are things on Middle-earth which are mysteries. Remember Anc's and my debate on Goldberry? I argued that she could have been an offspring of Osse and Uinen.


> _from The Silmarillion, Of the Maiar,_
> Ossë is a vassal of Ulmo, and he is master of the seas that wash the shores of Middle-earth. He does not go in the deeps, but loves the coasts and the isles, and rejoices in the winds of Manwë; for in storm he delights, and laughs amid the roaring of the waves. His spouse in Uinen, the Lady of the Seas, whose hair lies spread through all waters under sky. All creatures she loves that live in the salt streams, and all weeds that grow there; to her mariners cry, for she can lay clam upon the waves, restraining the wildness of Ossë. The Númenoreans lived long in her protection, and held her in reverence equal to the Valar.


I surmised that a child of these two Maiar would account for Goldberry as well as other "river spirits". Remember, there was some strange "mystery" that allowed Boromir's funeral boat to navigate the Falls of Rauros and appear to Faramir untouched by the waters. 

Just a thought... or two. 

Cheers,

grond


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## Inderjit S (Feb 8, 2004)

Didn't Balin have dreams about feasting with Thranduil and co. after he fell in?


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## Grond (Feb 8, 2004)

Inderjit S said:


> Didn't Balin have dreams about feasting with Thranduil and co. after he fell in?


It was Bombur.


> _from The Hobbit, Flies and Spiders,_
> He woke up suddenly and sat up scratching his head. He could not make out where he was at all, nor why he felt so hungry; for he had forgotten everything that had happened since they started their journey that May morning long ago. The last thing that he remembered was the party at the hobbit's house, and they had great difficulty in making him believe their tale of all the many adventures they had had since.
> 
> When he heard that there was nothing to eat, he sat down and wept, for he felt very weak and wobbly in the legs. 'Why ever did I wake up!' he cried. 'I was having such beautiful dreams. I dreamed I was walking in a forest rather like this one, only lit with torches on the trees and lamps swinging from the branches and fires burning on the ground; and there was a great feast going on, going on for ever. *A wood-land king was there with a crown of leaves, and there was a merry singing, and I could not count or describe the things there were to eat and drink.'*



Maybe the stream was enchanted by Thranduil. This passage leads me to believe that the enchantment was not evil. "shrugs"


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## Inderjit S (Feb 8, 2004)

Ah yes, hard to keep track of all these Dwarves. 

The Elves had 'magic' of course, though mortals can sometimes confuse what magic is (As Galadriel and the elf who gives the rope to Sam say.) but evidently some things can be seen as 'magic' in our eyes, such as Elrond's control of the Ford of Bruinen, Galadriel's mirror, the Palantir, or even Legolas's steadfastness, his intrinsic physical capabilities (seen in Glorfindel too), shooting down the Nazgûl’s fell beast, his tirelessness, the 'strange' Elven dreams (Dwarves seem to dream about the three peaks and Durin's bane et al. ) whether in Ithilien or on the plains of Rohan or substituting the 'green smell' of Rohan for sleep.

So I see no reason for Thranduil not being able to work some 'elven magic'. Whose to say the Sindar (And Thranduil was a Iathrim Sindar) under Melian's tutelage weren't able to work some magic? After all they were able to weave grey cloaks that offered them a pseudo-invisibility in a lot of environments and of course they had the lembas too. Were the Sindar inherently less magical then the Ñoldor or Amanyar? Who knows? 

As M.T (HoME 10) says, though water seems to be the most 'pure' of all substances, there is no reason why it, like all else, couldn't be tainted, to a degree.


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## Melian Le Fay (Feb 15, 2004)

ithrynluin said:


> Thranduil and his people seems the most plausible answer to me also. It is just that I have never thought of the Sindar and Silvan Elves as 'magic practitioners'. Are there any examples of them doing something 'magical' in the history of Middle-Earth? The only ones I can think of are Melian (who was a Maia) and Galadriel (a Noldo roughly). Perhaps Galadriel put her foot in it... Or some of the Elves of Mirkwood had dwelt in Doriath for a time and had learned this 'lore' from Melian and made use of it (in a very limited way compared to Melian of course).



I believe that Thranduil and Celeborn are close kinsmen of Elu Thingol. Actually, we know that Celeborn lived in Doriath (where he met and maried Galadriel)...
But somehow I always thought that Elves could practice magic (or what mortals see as magic) - more or else powerfull, and this magic was derived from their great love of earth and their great knowlege and wisdom. For example, when Bilbo and Dwarves try to get to the Elvish feast, the lights go out instantly, and everybody dissappears like enchantmens... And later Tolkien mentiones some "good magic residing in those places"...


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## Minuel Lasgalas (Feb 15, 2004)

Melian Le Fay said:


> I believe that Thranduil and Celeborn are close kinsmen of Elu Thingol. Actually, we know that Celeborn lived in Doriath (where he met and maried Galadriel)...



Where did you read of the relationship? I have not read they were remote kinsmen. 

I do know that Thranduil was the son of Oropher who went to the War of the Last Alliance, where he was slain with 2/3 of his army. Thranduil survived and returned to rule per _Unfinished Tales_. To complicate things even more per LoTR Appendix [B I think], Thranduil was one of the Sindar who travelled eastward from Lindon to found forest realms... I guess merging the two would work, but I have never heard of a familial relationship between the two.


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## Eledhwen (Feb 16, 2004)

The word 'enchantment' gives some clue. It means that the magic was applied by the use of chanting. In ancient Celtic legends poets were skilled in this way (as opposed to sorcerers, who used 'things'). This leads me to believe that the song-happy Elves, or specially gifted members of that race, were perfectly capable of setting such enchantments. Nimrodel's voice still affected the river named after her in the woods of Lothlorien, and the Withywindle has already been mentioned.

As for the streams of Mordor, no-one in their right minds would drink from a stream emitting from a volcanic area, dark lord or no dark lord; it would be doubly poisoned with minerals, heavy metals and the additives of heavy industry.


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## Inderjit S (Feb 16, 2004)

> I believe that Thranduil and Celeborn are close kinsmen of Elu Thingol. Actually, we know that Celeborn lived in Doriath (where he met and maried Galadriel)...



They may or may not have known each other in Doriath. They may or may not be related, to a certain degree. We are never actually told whether or not Oropher or Amdir are related or even related to Thingol, but they seem to be high-up in the Iathrim Sindar's ranks so they could have been some Sindarin lords. Thingol seems to have a lot of relative whose relations to him are unknown. Eöl, Círdan and Voronwë are three of these, and we have characters like Elmo who are never mentioned in the narrative. 

They would not have left Doriath at the same time. Thranduil and co. seem to have left with the mass exodus at the end of the F.A, but Celeborn left with Galadriel some years earlier, before the fall of the hidden kingdoms. 

It was not Celeborn but Amdir who founded Lothlórien and ruled over the Sylvan Elves (and later Nelyarin Avari) of the region. Oropher set up a realm in Southern Mirkwood on Amon Lanc.


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## Melian Le Fay (Feb 16, 2004)

I am afraid I cannot confirm what I stated in my last post, because I read about the relationship in one of the threads a year ago (when I visited the Forum), and it was stated by a Tolkienologist (and I really givo those guys credit)...
I remember reading that Thranduil (and Oropher) were not Sylvan, but Sindarin Elves. They claimed their lordship on this ground. We know for sure that Celeborn lived in Doriath. And I assume all Elves called Sindar lived for a while in Doriath, so they were capable of learning some of Melian's lore... 
But this relationship needs to be checked out...


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## Grond (Feb 16, 2004)

Melian Le Fay said:


> I am afraid I cannot confirm what I stated in my last post, because I read about the relationship in one of the threads a year ago (when I visited the Forum), and it was stated by a Tolkienologist (and I really givo those guys credit)...
> I remember reading that Thranduil (and Oropher) were not Sylvan, but Sindarin Elves. They claimed their lordship on this ground. We know for sure that Celeborn lived in Doriath. And I assume all Elves called Sindar lived for a while in Doriath, so they were capable of learning some of Melian's lore...
> But this relationship needs to be checked out...


Just this so far. I haven't looked very hard yet.


> _from Unfinished Tales, APPENDIX B
> THE SINDARIN PRINCES OF THE SILVAN ELVES_
> ...In another passage written at the same time as the foregoing it is said that when a thousand years of the Third Age had passed and the Shadow fell upon Greenwood the Great, the Silvan Elves ruled by Thranduil retreated before it as it spread ever northward, until at last Thranduil established his realm in the north-east of the forest and delved there a fortress and great halls underground. *Oropher was of Sindarin origin, and no doubt Thranduil his son was following the example of King Thingol long before, in Doriath; though his halls were not to be compared with Menegroth.* He had not the arts nor wealth nor the aid of the Dwarves; and compared with the Elves of Doriath his Silvan folk were rude and rustic. Oropher had come among them with only a handful of Sindar, and they were soon merged with the Silvan Elves, adopting their language and taking names of Silvan form and style. This they did deliberately; for they (and other similar adventurers forgotten in the legends or only briefly named) came from Doriath after its ruin and had no desire to leave Middle-earth, nor to be merged with the other Sindar of Beleriand, dominated by the Noldorin Exiles for whom the folk of Doriath had no great love. They wished indeed to become Silvan folk and to return, as they said, to the simple life natural to the Elves before the invitation of the Valar had disturbed it.


I would suppose that both Celeborn and Oropher knew each other at the least and were probably related at the most.


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## Melian Le Fay (Feb 17, 2004)

Hmm... funny... That was the exact chapter someone posted a year ago that I read! can you read thoughts, Grond....?  
Now, it's no longer important to the answer of the original question whether Thranduil and Celeborn were related. The chapter Grond quoted implies that Thranduil (or his father) lived in Doriath; an took to protecting his realm after the manner of Thingol... So, casting a spell on a stream seems to be in his power...


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## Minuel Lasgalas (Feb 17, 2004)

Melian Le Fay said:


> Now, it's no longer important to the answer of the original question whether Thranduil and Celeborn were related.



Not so... I would be interested - outside of the question - as to whether they were related.




> The chapter Grond quoted implies that Thranduil (or his father) lived in Doriath; an took to protecting his realm after the manner of Thingol... So, casting a spell on a stream seems to be in his power...



I never questioned that


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## Melian Le Fay (Feb 17, 2004)

Well, I'm also interested in discovering whether the two of them were related, I just mentioned it is not importand for the thread topic... that much... Perhaps we shoud start a new thread about that...?


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## Minuel Lasgalas (Feb 17, 2004)

Melian Le Fay said:


> Well, I'm also interested in discovering whether the two of them were related, I just mentioned it is not importand for the thread topic... that much... Perhaps we shoud start a new thread about that...?



Oh, I don't know; I'm just interested because it ties into something I've been wondering about over the years and if Grond finds something I'm sure he'll post it. 

I agree with the concept that Thranduil and his people have skills in a 'magical sense' based on their time in Doriath.


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## Melian Le Fay (Feb 18, 2004)

But couldn't it be possible that _all_ Elves had these skills... whether or not they lived in Doriath (or Valinor)...? Perhaps their own knowllege is sufficient for this?


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 18, 2004)

Hmm, I'm not entirely sure about that, Melian (Le Fay  ). I would think that the Sindar of Doriath were 'enriched' because of the teachings imparted upon them by Melian. The Exiles could be said to possess the same skills, since they were largely instructed by the Valar and Maiar of Aman. But I'm not sure about the Avari. Unless these skills of enchantment were inherent to all Elves alike (like you said). An extremely interesting deviation from the original topic!


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## Melian Le Fay (Feb 18, 2004)

ithrynluin said:


> An extremely interesting deviation from the original topic!



Well, nobody's complaining!   

Of course Elves of Doriath and Valinor were inriched in knowlege, but it's also logical to assume all Elves had abilities Men considered "magical". I guess because they're Elves. They understand, love this world in a different way then men (maybe I should just say "more"), and they are able to apply this knowlege - like that "magical" garment the Felloship was given in Lothlorien...


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## Ardamir the Blessed (Feb 19, 2004)

*The enchanted stream ~ Esgalduin, the enchanted river?*

JRRT seems to have borrowed the enchanted stream from Esgalduin, the enchanted river in Doriath.

The published Silmarillion:


> Thus it came to pass that her [Melian's] power was withdrawn in that time from the forests of Neldoreth and Region, and *Esgalduin the enchanted river* spoke with a different voice, and Doriath lay open to its enemies.


I don't know more about the characteristics of Esgalduin at this time though.


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## Melian Le Fay (Feb 19, 2004)

Yes, but in this case the power of enchantment was lesser than the one of Melian. And could have JRRT "borrowed" this idea from The Sil, considering how early The Hobbit was written... but I agree it's the same motif. And that was (I think) our answer of the question - who enchanted the river? We drew the parallel from The Sil and Doriath.


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## Ardamir the Blessed (Feb 19, 2004)

JRRT worked a lot on _The Silmarillion_ before he worked on _The Hobbit_, so the idea of Esgalduin was definitely there. It seems that CT invented the line I quoted above though, but JRRT mentions Esgalduin as an enchanted river in LR, 'A Knife in the Dark':


> There he [Beren] beheld Lúthien singing and dancing in a glade beside *the enchanted river Esgalduin*


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## Melian Le Fay (Feb 20, 2004)

Of course he was working on the Sil long before the Hobbit, but did he already have the motiv of the enchanted river...? The Hobbit was written before LOTR...
Anyhow, it's not important all that much...


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## Ardamir the Blessed (Feb 20, 2004)

The river was already existent in 'The Tale of Tinúviel' (written 1917) which can be found in _The Book of Lost Tales Part II_, and there it is even regarded as a stream, unnamed:


> Now his [Tinwelint's] halls were builded in a deep cavern of great size, and they were nonetheless a kingly and a fair abode. This cavern was in the heart of the mighty forest of Artanor that is the mightiest of forests, and *a stream ran before its doors*, but none could enter that portal save across the stream, and a bridge spanned it narrow and well-guarded.



A river also ran before Thranduil's doors:

TH, 'Flies and Spiders':


> In a great cave some miles within the edge of Mirkwood on its eastern side there lived at this time their [the Wood-elves'] greatest king. *Before his huge doors of stone a river ran* out of the heights of the forest and flowed on and out into the marshes at the feet of the high wooded lands.



And there was also a bridge across this river like the one across Esgalduin: 

TH, 'Barrels Out of Bond':


> Suddenly the torches stopped, and the hobbit [Bilbo] had just time to catch them [the Wood-elves] up before they began to cross the bridge. This was *the bridge that led across the river to the king's doors*.



But it appears that the river isn't the enchanted stream; it's the Forest River joint with the enchanted stream, as can be seen in this map of Wilderland. In Doriath there were not really two rivers that approached Menegroth, only Esgalduin, as can be seen in this map of Doriath.

But it is quite evident that JRRT either borrowed elements from Doriath for _The Hobbit_, or he already knew by then that Thranduil 'copied' Menegroth/Doriath when he established his realm in Northern Mirkwood, as is made clear in UT, 'The History of Galadriel and Celeborn':


> Oropher was of Sindarin origin, and no doubt *Thranduil his son was following the example of King Thingol long before*, in Doriath; though his halls were not to be compared with Menegroth. He had not the arts nor wealth nor the aid of the Dwarves; and compared with the Elves of Doriath his Silvan folk were rude and rustic.



Actually if we combine Thranduil's realm and Lórien we get some sort of a Doriath, because Galadriel also copied off Doriath when she became ruler of Lórinand, but she was the pupil of Melian and therefore was inspired by her and her powers. Thranduil was more like Thingol, though Celeborn was like him too. Perhaps Thranduil's wife was very powerful as well?


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## Melian Le Fay (Feb 21, 2004)

Ardamir the Blessed said:


> Actually if we combine Thranduil's realm and Lórien we get some sort of a Doriath, because Galadriel also copied off Doriath when she became ruler of Lórinand, but she was the pupil of Melian and therefore was inspired by her and her powers. Thranduil was more like Thingol, though Celeborn was like him too. Perhaps Thranduil's wife was very powerful as well?



Well, if she were powerfull, perhaps Tolkien would have mentioned her...


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## Eledhwen (Feb 22, 2004)

Melian Le Fay said:


> Well, if she were powerfull, perhaps Tolkien would have mentioned her...


There's always room for more, as Tolkien himself suggested. He introduced a male Elf in HoME 10 who upsets the genealogies in Lord of the Rings, so why not a powerful queen for Thranduil? Mirkwood was poor in mined riches, but maybe the Elves' wealth was of another sort?


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## Melian Le Fay (Mar 2, 2004)

Of course, I agree...
Interesting, that, with HoME 10. I haven't read it yet, but I look forward to it, I guess I'm very interested it geneaologies from LOTR, actually Aragorn's and Arwen's geneaologies mostly...
And we have to admit, taken all Tolkien's work, that they aren't always coherent and consistant with each other.


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