# Did female hobbits smoke?



## Amarië (Nov 1, 2003)

*Do female hobbits smoke?*

Do female hobbits smoke? We know that the males do but is there any evidence for the women... Maybe it was just hobbits in general... anyway, just a random wondering!
~A~


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## BlackCaptain (Nov 1, 2003)

Well I believe that in the Prologue Tolkien mentions something about 'The Hobbits' liking to smoke, and are interested in Pipe Weed. I can only asume that he meant all Hobbits in general, females included, but I wouldnt really know. That's just my educated guess


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## Red Istar (Nov 1, 2003)

I don't know... I just can't imagine Rosie Cotton with a pipe hanging out of her mouth. 


On a not-terribly-related tangent...

did female dwarves have beards?


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## Gil-Galad (Nov 1, 2003)

Well I think it was a question of choice,I mean those who liked smoking,just smoked a lot.Just like in our case,everybody can smoke,it is a question of choice.


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## Lantarion (Nov 1, 2003)

All of Tolkien's societies seem to be very patriarchal, and I think that when Tolkien uses general terms like 'Hobbits' or 'Men' (as a race) he is talking about the male representatives of that race rather than the female - unless he explicitly states otherwise. But all female Hobbits that we encounter in the LotR are strong-willed (Rosie, Mrs. Maggott, Lobelia Sackville-Baggins) and are not the epitomes of devoted housewives or humble daughters; they are very realistic in that sense. 
So perhaps female Hobbits did smoke! I would agree with BC's educated guess that Tolkien perhaps meant all Hobbits.


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## Kahmûl (Nov 1, 2003)

I'd agree with Gil-Galad I think it's just their choice if they want to smoke or not.


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## HLGStrider (Nov 2, 2003)

Well, I don't think there was anti-smoking legislation passed.

"Hello, I'm with the firm of Baggins, Baggins, and Bracegirtle, and I represent a client, one Peregrin Took, who is bringing a suit against the Long Bottom Weed Company. We believe they are hiding the fact that Pipe Weed is addictive and can cause serious health problems. . ."


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## Red Istar (Nov 2, 2003)

Hehe... except Bilbo and Gandalf both smoked and they both lived to be very old...

then again, Bilbo did have the Ring. And Gandalf was immortal anyway. But still...


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## Starbrow (Nov 2, 2003)

About the unrelated question.

Yes, female dwarves had beards.


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## Red Istar (Nov 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Starbrow _
> *About the unrelated question.
> 
> Yes, female dwarves had beards. *



I guess that explains why most male dwarves didn't marry.


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## Niniel (Nov 3, 2003)

I agree with Lantarion that most societies described by Tolkien are very patriarchal. I think the hobbit society is a mirror of the English society, or at least an idealized English society. And in the 19th/20th century it was not customary for women to smoke, unless they expressly wanted to make a statement of independence. But smoking doesn't really fit with the ideal society that Tolkien was thinking of, so I think hobbit women didn't smoke, or at least Tolkien didn't think it worth mentioning if they did.


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## Flame of Udûn (Nov 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> *Well, I don't think there was anti-smoking legislation passed.
> 
> "Hello, I'm with the firm of Baggins, Baggins, and Bracegirtle, and I represent a client, one Peregrin Took, who is bringing a suit against the Long Bottom Weed Company. We believe they are hiding the fact that Pipe Weed is addictive and can cause serious health problems. . ." *


In pipe smoking you don't actually take the smoke into your lungs, you just hold it in your mouth.


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## HLGStrider (Nov 10, 2003)

But if the room gets smokey enough there is bound to be second hand smoke (Elgee pulls at straws).


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## Ice Man (Nov 12, 2003)

I hope not.

Women who smoke are already a huge annoyance, they are horrible to kiss and be around with, especially for me, since I'm a bit allergic to cigarettes, cigars and whatever... Female hobbit smokers would be horrible. I'd never date one.


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## kohaku (Nov 13, 2003)

I sure hope that at least the hobbit women had the good sense to "just say no "

I agree that the hobbit society is far different from today's society, where women didn't have the kind of choices that they have today. Most likely, smoking was not considered acceptable for women, and thus few if any would have smoked. I think the reason Tolkien does not mention any women smoking is because most of them did not. Consider also that in middle earth, smoking was done mostly using pipes, not cigarettes... can you imagine a women, even today, smoking a pipe? That is a humerous but unfitting image, no matter what race or time period one is talking about.


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## Inderjit S (Nov 14, 2003)

> As far as I know Hobbits were universally monogamous (indeed they very seldom married a second time, even if wife or husband died very young); and I should say that their family arrangements were 'patrilinear' rather than patriarchal. That is, their family names descended in the male-line (and women were adopted into their husband's name); also the titular head of the family was usually the eldest male. In the case of large powerful families (such as the Tooks), still cohesive even when they had become very numerous, and more what we might call clans, the head was properly the eldest male of what was considered the most direct line of descent. But the government of a 'family', as of the real unit: the 'household', was not a monarchy (except by accident). It was a 'dyarchy', in which master and mistress had equal status, if different functions. Either was held to be the proper representative of the other in the case of absence (including death). There were no 'dowagers'. If the master died first, his place was taken by his wife, and this included (if he had held that position) the titular headship of a large family or clan. This title thus did not descend to the son, or other heir, while she lived, unless she voluntarily resigned. It could, therefore, happen in various circumstances that a long-lived woman of forceful character remained 'head of the family', until she had full-grown grandchildren


 _Letter #214; Letters of Tolkien_ 

Whilst Hobbitish society may have been geared towards Patriarchy, the Hobbit women still had a greater degree of power then in some places. 

I see no reason for Hobbit women not to smoke, it wasn't seen as particulary "unhealthy" and I really don't think the Hobbits really cared. One can imagine though a 'forceful' Hobbit woman smoking a pipe, just to get at those pesky Hobbit men.


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## HLGStrider (Nov 14, 2003)

I think it would depend on one factor: If it was suspected to harm unborn children.

Generally things like smoking and drinking were considered social outs for women in our societies because they were suspected to be harmful to fertility. 

If this was suspected by Hobbits, which I see no sign that it was, it probably was taboo.


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## FIRELILY (Nov 20, 2003)

Hard to believe such old fogie comments are coming from such young guys. While the thread subject is about female hobbits smoking, and while I think smoking in general is a nasty habit, I find the comments about how pipe smoking is so unbecoming to a "female" rather curious and a smidgeola sexist.
Pipe smoking by women was something not uncommon by nobility in the 17 & 18th century-delicate little slender pipes gracefully held and used. Now, it's just not something we're used to seeing but it doesn't sound as unbecoming as, say, big hairy hobbit feet sticking out from under a dress.
I think female hobbits DID smoke. They were earthy people for goodness sake. They grew the pipe-weed and it was a cash crop too. They may not have shared it as an experience with men, per se, but as relaxing pasttime while doing other things, yes. Mrs. Mag smoking as she sat by the fire mending socks and breeches; Rosie after a busy night at the Inn; Lobelia puffing a long, thin pipe as she plotted ways to get her beloved Bag End. 
I think it's pretty reasonable to think they'd enjoy a good pipe just as much as the guys.


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## Starbrow (Nov 20, 2003)

I agree with Firelily. I can certainly imagine female hobbits smoking pipes.


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## HLGStrider (Nov 20, 2003)

I don't find it sexist. I think most of the guys who posted like that probably find smoking a nasty habit. . .and you generally consider habits nastier in the opposite sex because you tend to think of them in context of romance. . .and it isn't that romantic, a smoking female hobbit. . .though what is romantic about hobbits anyway escapes me


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## FIRELILY (Nov 21, 2003)

C'mon now. If it's the habit itself that's distasteful to someone then it wouldn't matter whom the perpetrator was. If, on the other hand, it depends on the sex of the person as to how ridiculous, humorous, or nasty the habit is deemed, then that's sexist. Just the way the comments struck me were like females are expected to conform to some higher moral standard than males that makes a habit like smoking a pipe particularly abominable if a females does it (Landsakes! Totally un-ladylike!).
What if pipe smoking were replaced by..um.. I don't know.. say..
booger-eating? Is it more distasteful (no pun intended ) if a member of the opposite sex does it because they are a potential partner? Don't think so. If the act bothers you, it's gross no matter who's doing it. 

*Any advocates who support booger-eating as a solely male activity may voice their opinions in writing.

**This post in no way implies that hobbits eat boogers or any other dispensable bodily products.


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## elf_queen (Nov 21, 2003)

I think that female hobbits smoke. 

But maybe not untill 33.


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## HLGStrider (Nov 21, 2003)

> Is it more distasteful (no pun intended ) if a member of the opposite sex does it because they are a potential partner?



Actually, I would. If I'm looking over a cute guy and thinking, "Hmm. . .might be nice to introduce myself" and suddenly he starts flicking boogers all over or something it's a heck of a lot more annoying than when I just see some girl doing it. 



> If it's the habit itself that's distasteful to someone then it wouldn't matter whom the perpetrator was. If, on the other hand, it depends on the sex of the person as to how ridiculous, humorous, or nasty the habit is deemed, then that's sexist.



I do think there is a standard for lady like and a standard for masculinity, however. I don't mind girls who primp, but it annoys me when I see guys who look like they spend more time on their hair than I do. Primping is not particularly desireable in either sex (neither is smoking, I think), but for some reason it seems worse in males.. . .I think because we expect it.


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## kohaku (Nov 21, 2003)

I was basing my comments on observations of society in general, both recent and old. How often do you see females with a pipe, in any society at any time? It's not that they can't, it's that they usually don't. Hobbit society seems to mirror in many ways old English society, so I think it's at least reasonable, if not necessarily accurate, to infer things about hobbit society by examining English society.


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## FIRELILY (Nov 24, 2003)

"Expected" behaviors, standards for male & female, usual and customary behaviors, are all subjective and tricky things.
However, I stick by my guns and say that if the sole reason for deeming behavior appropriate or inappropriate depends on being male or female then that's a form of sexism. 
To me, it doesn't matter out of whose mouth the pipe is sticking if the smoke is choking me and making my eyes water. 
If given the choice of seats, I'll opt to not sit next to the person who's "digging for gold" whether they're male or female.
Someone primping extensively in public, to me, makes a person seem vain or insecure, no matter the sex.
Tolkien created some strong female personalities in LOTR. Regardless of the theorectical mores of the time in his book, I think it highly likely that hobbit females did partake in leaf smoking. Unlike the old English society that Kohaku referred to, in the world of the hobbits the "leaf" was grown by the hobbits themselves in their own back yards and it was something they were proud of. I couldn't imagine something so plentiful, esteemed, and accessible being forbidden for use by females or not wanted by them.
Hobbit ladies, enjoy your pipe no matter what folks may say!!!


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## HLGStrider (Nov 24, 2003)

I think there are various reason why they would not:

A. It was considered unattractive.

In some cultures the male was the butterful. In some cultures the female. . .meaning of course, which sex was supposed to put on bright colors and makeup etc. Some cultures both. I don't know which Hobbiton was. . .or it could be that neither was.

B. It was considered harmful as far as child bearing went.

C. It was just something they didn't prefer in the majority, and so, because the minority of women did it, it was not spreading (I imagine most Hobbit boys learned to smoke by stealing their father's pipes).


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## Finglas (Dec 10, 2003)

i think that it would be the same as a woman nowadays smoking. I don't think that any of the hobbit men would date them or would they?


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## Barliman Butterbur (Dec 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Red Istar _
> *I guess that explains why most male dwarves didn't marry.   *



LOL! And I wouldn't be surprised if the old gammers smoked. Actually I doubt it. I have an idea that Tolkien would have been appalled at seeing a woman smoke a pipe or cigar, so he probably didn't imagine it happening in his stories. (All that tobacco breath — blechhhhhh!)

—Lotho


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## Barliman Butterbur (Dec 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by FIRELILY _
> *Now, [smoking's] just not something we're used to seeing but it doesn't sound as unbecoming as, say, big hairy hobbit feet sticking out from under a dress.*



I dunno...that could've been a big turn-on for a male hobbit — the hairiness, the size, the smell... 

—Lotho


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## FIRELILY (Dec 11, 2003)

Thank you guys for illustrating my point for me. Whatever will those poor female hobbits do if boy hobbits don't date them or kiss them (sniff!)???? Well, maybe those poor female hobbits will just grow their own longbottom leaf, become entrepeneurs, and become wealthy because they don't have a gluttonous hobbit male around to smoke all her leaf and chow down all of her comestibles. And maybe, since the female hobbits' smoking is so icky but male hobbits' smoking is acceptable, male hobbits who smoke can just date each other. Dating problem solved.
Besides, how do we know that the hobbits' leaf doesn't taste good or that it smells gross? I know the leaf is likened to tobacco by Tolkien (some reference to it in "Concerning Hobbits" about it being in the "nicotans(?)" family[hardcore fans help me out here] ) but one doesn't HAVE to imagine that it's as unpleasant and unhealthy as tobacco. Just like one doesn't HAVE to tag Hobbiton with the same social hangups and quirks of our day.
P.S. Lotho, you're creeping me out with the whole funky foot-fetish thing but at least that comment was "out of the box".


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## Saermegil (Dec 11, 2003)

I will agree with the view that female hobbits did not moke, and that is mainly because I don't think Tolkien would like the idea of women smoking, and would thus have no reason to have them smoke in the world that he created


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## FIRELILY (Dec 11, 2003)

Well, since he didn't write to the contrary, I'll bet they just smoked behind his back while he wasn't looking. Similarly, did hobbits in general have big, hairy feet or just the males since he didn't write about the females specifically having big hairy feet?


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## Barliman Butterbur (Dec 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by FIRELILY _
> * one doesn't HAVE to tag Hobbiton with the same social hangups and quirks of our day.
> P.S. Lotho, you're creeping me out with the whole funky foot-fetish thing but at least that comment was "out of the box". *



Well said! And let's NOT put our hangups on poor hobbitses!  

And hey, Lily, hair, size and smell are turn-ons to people in _every_ society! One person's fetish is another's necessity!  

—Lotho


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## HLGStrider (Dec 11, 2003)

> Thank you guys for illustrating my point for me. Whatever will those poor female hobbits do if boy hobbits don't date them or kiss them (sniff!)????



Not get married and so not have girl hobbits to raise believing smoking is all right for girls.

However, if the girls who don't smoke are more popular with the guys they will get married, will have kids, and will raise those kids to believe that smoking is wrong for girls or at least not something girls do. 

Therefore, it will continue to be an extreme rarity. . .

sort of a survival of the fittest


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