# The dwarven rings of power



## krash8765 (Apr 8, 2003)

Is there any mention of the names of the dwarves that got rings of power from Sauron? also were they all longbeards who got the rings or were they from different clans also?


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 8, 2003)

The Dwarven rings are nowhere named. I also don't think it was known to what "races" of Dwarves Sauron had given the Rings.


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## krash8765 (Apr 8, 2003)

thanyou itrynluin


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## YayGollum (Apr 8, 2003)

Anybody have any ideas for what the powers of those things were? Sure, I know how Sauron messed with the Dwarves that had them, but why did the Dwarves even hold onto the things? I heard something about them helping them find gold. What, were they just special metal detectors?


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## jallan (Apr 8, 2003)

No explanation is given.

The Rings did not confer invisibility on Dwarves or ever cause them to fade, but inflamed their greed.

As all Rings could be used to enhance the powers of the bearer it is possible that what is meant is that the bearer, by means of such power, was able to obtain more wealth.

The idea that a Ring of Power was the foundation for each of the Seven Hoards of the Dwarves may come from Snorri Sturluson’s _Prose Edda_, in the _Skáldskaparmal_:


> Thereupon Odin sent Loki into the Land of the Black Elves, and he came to the dwarf who is called Andvari, who was as a fish in the water. Loki caught him in his hands and required of him in ransom of his life all the gold that he had in his rock; and when they came within the rock, the dwarf brought forth all the gold he had, and it was very much wealth. Then the dwarf quickly swept under his hand one little gold ring, but Loki saw it and commanded him to give over the ring. The dwarf prayed him not to take the ring from him, saying that from this ring he could multiply wealth for himself if he might keep it. Loki answered that be should not have one penny left, and took the ring from him and went out; but the dwarf declared that that ring should be the ruin of every one who should come into possession of it.


Wagner adapted this tale in his operatic Ring Cycle, and his version of the Ring also gave rulership of the world to those who could use it.


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## baragund (Apr 10, 2003)

To reinforce Jallan's and Yay's point, here is a passage from "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" in The Silmarillion where it discusses the distribution of the seven rings to the dwarves:

"The Dwarves indeed proved tough and hard to tame; they ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom, nor can they be turned to shadows. They used their rings only for the getting of wealth; but wrath and an over-mastering greed of gold were kindled in their hearts, of which evil enough after came to the profit of Sauron. It is said that the foundations of each of the Seven Hoards of the Dwarf-kings of old was a golden ring; but all those hoards long ago were plundered and the Dragons devoured them, and of the Seven Rings some were consumed in fire and some Sauron recovered."

As far as names are concerned, the only one I am aware of is the House of Durin whose descendent was Thorin Oakenshield.


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## YayGollum (Apr 10, 2003)

Got it. So the only thing we might know is that the Dwarf rings might have magically made more gold appear. That sounds a lot different from what the other rings did. oh well. No big deal. just wondering. Yay for the part of that quote that says Dwarves can't be turned to shadows! It shows how much stronger they are than elves.  And how a Dwarf should have been chosen to toss the One Ring into that Mount Doom place. *runs away*


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## Iluisa Olórin (Apr 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by YayGollum_
> 
> So the only thing [w]e might know is that the Dwarf rings might have magically made more gold appear. That sounds a lot different from what the other rings did.



As per jimzeller's quote from _The Silmarillion_, the purpose of the Rings of Power was to confer abilities that would make them so desirable as to consume their holders and cause them to fall under the domination of Sauron.


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## YayGollum (Apr 11, 2003)

Okay... That still doesn't say what the ability was for the Dwarves. I said that the only thing we might know is that their rings might have suddenly made gold magically appear. I know what Sauron used the rings for.


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## Iluisa Olórin (Apr 11, 2003)

The Rings conferred no *physical* abilities on the Dwarves whatsoever (certainly none comparable to those conferred on the Elves); they did not help them to find gold or to make more gold appear.

Perhaps clarifying jimzeller's quote, the following is found in THoMe Vol. VI:

"... nothing could make them invisible. In them it only kindled to flames the fire of greed..."

Therefore, the Dwarves retained the Rings solely because they consumed them and caused them to fall under the domination of Sauron; for them, this was Sauron's purpose.

Of interest, the reason invisibility wasn't conferred is given as their being too solid and, in the earliest account of the Rings, it was said that the Dwarves probably had no Rings.


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## YayGollum (Apr 11, 2003)

How do you know that the rings didn't have any cool little powers just for the Dwarves? I've never seen that written anywhere. sorry about that. I might just not have the books that you do. Anyways, even if that is true, why would the Dwarves have even accepted the rings if they didn't do anything for them? What, would it just have been considered some great honor to have been given some little ring by Sauron since he was pretty nice and friendly with everybody when he doled the rings out? I have no idea. Doesn't make much sense to me that every single other ring gave a cool power to the people.


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## Iluisa Olórin (Apr 11, 2003)

The answers to both of your questions can be found in my last post.


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## YayGollum (Apr 11, 2003)

Oh, you didn't notice that I obviously hadn't run into those answers? *goes back over the scary person's last post* Nope. I still don't see them. Which two questions of mine were you just talking about? I think I had three. Here. 

Could you tell me how you know that the seven Dwarf rings of power didn't have any special little powers just for them? I didn't see that answer anywhere. sorry about that. Maybe I'm just a crazy guy that loves overlooking superly obvious things. 

Why would the Dwarves have even accepted the rings if they didn't do anything for them? 

What, would it just have been considered some great honor to have been given some little ring by Sauron since he was pretty nice and friendly with everybody when he doled the rings out?


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## Iluisa Olórin (Apr 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by YayGollum_
> 
> *goes back over the scary person's last post*



How old are you?



> What, would it just have been considered some great honor to have been given some little ring by Sauron since he was pretty nice and friendly with everybody when he doled the rings
> out?



I interpreted that as an extension of your second question.



> "... nothing could make them invisible. In them it only kindled to flames the fire of greed..."



Herein lies the answer to your first question.



> Therefore, the Dwarves retained the Rings solely because they consumed them and caused them to fall under the domination of Sauron; for them, this was Sauron's purpose.



Herein lies the answer to your second question.

In answer to your third question, or extension of your second: no.

Did you find the answers?


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## YayGollum (Apr 11, 2003)

Hi. I am seventeen. Why? You're scary because you're invisible. oh well.  

Yes, I figured that that first thing probably could just be a part of the second thing a little too late. Whoops! Anyways, I don't see how that quote about the rings not making them invisible, but making them greedier is an answer to my question. Why would some Dwarf look at some ring being offered to him and say ---> "Oo! A ring that won't make me invisible? What a cool power! I want this thing! Oo! It will mess with mess with my personality so I'm unnaturally greedy, too? This is too good to pass up! I'll take it!" That makes no sense to me. I would think that they'd take the things for the helpfully cool powers it would give them. All of the other rings were useful to the people that wore them. Do you think that the humans that became the Nazgul said ---> "Oo! This will turn me into a brainless slave with the power of fear and invisibility? Cool!" No. They said ---> "Oo! This will let me be invisible and more powerful and stronger and more useful in battle! I'll take it!" It had a use for them. Why would they grab something for it's negative qualities? Ick. Well, that was long! 

The answer to my second question wasn't an answer to my second question. I asked why some Dwarf would accept the ring in the first place. That quote says why the kept the things around.

So no, I didn't find the answers. Care to try again?


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## Iluisa Olórin (Apr 11, 2003)

The quote states that all the Rings did for the Dwarves was "[kindle] to flames [their] fire of greed;" not confer any *physical* abilities on them.

By "[kindling] to flames the fire of greed" that already existed in the Dwarves, Sauron hoped to bend them to his will. They would have accepted the Rings merely because of their lust for treasure and, once they had, the Rings consumed them, fulfilling Sauron's purpose. (This should answer your second question).

I won't address your excursion on the Nazgûl, except to say that I don't think they knew the Rings would confer invisibility on them.


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## baragund (Apr 11, 2003)

I can't recall anything in LOTR, The Silmarillion or Unfinished Tales that specifies what, exactly, the 7 rings did for the dwarves. (I'm just beginning vol. 1 of the HOME series so I can't really talk about what's in there.) However, YayGollum makes a lot of sense with his/her/it's point about why should the dwarves accept a supposed Ring of Power that doesn't do anything for them.

This is purely conjecture but when I read the passage that says the rings were used "for getting of wealth", I like to think that they somehow guided the dwarves to, say, the richest veins of mithril, or the mother lode of some kind of jewel or other precious metals. Sort of like a divining rod for riches. Once they figure this out and come to rely on the rings for getting of wealth, then the more evil effects would start to kick in.

So this would square with Iluisa's point that the rings didn't convey physical powers, but conveyed the foresight of where to mine for whatever treasures they were looking for.

How does that sound?


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## YayGollum (Apr 11, 2003)

It's point?   I'm a he. oh well. Anyways, sure, that makes all kinds of sense to me, jimzeller person. I don't remember ever implying that I thought the rings for the Dwarves did anything special. I was asking what you people thought. I even tossed in the speculation that you're talking about with the diving rod idea. I just forgot the name of the thing.  oh well. 

Anyways, sure, thanks for trying to answer my questions, Iluisa person, but you keep talking about the powers the Dwarf rings would let Sauron use on the Dwarves while using the One Ring. I'm asking about what powers made the things attractive to the Dwarves in the first place. Like the promise of power and strength and even invisibility for the humans. If the crazy speculation me and this jimzeller person have about the rings being a type of divining rod thing is right, then it makes sense that the Dwarves would accept these rings. Do you really think that the Dwarves would accept them if they knew it would mess with their brains? I don't.


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## Iluisa Olórin (Apr 11, 2003)

YayGollum: for you, I'll try and regurgitate what I've said thrice already...

The Dwarves accepted the Rings merely because of their lust for treasure. I never once suggested that they accepted them because they knew they would "mess with their brains" - this was Sauron's purpose; not the Dwarves'.

As jimzeller said: inferring that the Rings gave the Dwarves powers they actually *wanted* is purely conjecture.

As a matter of interest, regarding the passage that says the Rings were used "for getting of wealth" - my interpretation is a metaphysical one, in that they made them greedier and more lustful for the treasure they sought, rather than physically aiding them, like a magic wand (or divining rod), to seek it out.


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## YayGollum (Apr 11, 2003)

Ack! I understand what you're trying to tell me, crazy person, but I don't think it's actually answering my questions. sorry about that. From what you're telling me now, I gots to ask ---> Why do you think they'd accept the rings because of their lust for treasure? Here's the scene ---> Sauron gets the attention of some Dwarf. He holds out a ring. Why would the Dwarf take the ring? You keep saying that the Dwarf would take the ring because of his lust for treasure. Do you think that the ring would have some scary power of the Dwarf before he even picked the thing up? I don't. I think that Sauron would have to extol the virtues of the thing for the Dwarf to take it. What are these virtues? That's what I've been asking and I still don't see the answer. Do you think that what natural greed they had would make them say ---> "Oo! A golden ring! I'll take it for no apparent reason and keep it on long enough for this guy to make the One Ring and try to mess with my brain!"? I don't. I know what Sauron wanted to use the rings for. What did the Dwarves want to use the rings for? All of the other races that got rings were able to use them for good reasons. What did the Dwarves use theirs for? I'm after that purely conjecture thing. Noone has been able to figure that out. I already know the answers to the other questions. 

I should have made that post look good with little spaces and things. oh well. I gots to do other things.


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## Iluisa Olórin (Apr 11, 2003)

OK, "can't comprehend person"...



> Why do you think they'd accept the rings because of their lust for treasure?



If there's an answer in there, then: that's right! You *did* read what I wrote! 



> Do you think that the ring would have some scary power of the Dwarf before he even picked the thing up?



No; I never suggested that. Certainly, Sauron could quite easily have extolled the Rings' virtues which, with their natural greed for such things, could have convinced them to accept them. Why would they not? Just because Sauron said the Rings had powers that would (literally) profit them, doesn't mean he was telling the truth, you know.



> you think that what natural greed they had would make them say ---> "Oo! A golden ring! I'll take it for no apparent reason and keep it on long enough for this guy to make the One Ring and try to mess with my brain!"?



That's ridiculous.



> I should have made that post look good with little spaces and things. oh well. I gots to do other things.



It makes things far easier to follow and to respond to. But, "you gots to do what you gots to do," eh?


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## YayGollum (Apr 11, 2003)

Okay, so you're just saying that you don't know what positive powers the rings had for the Dwarves and you don't want to try guessing. You just say that the rings might not have had any positive type powers at all and Sauron could have just lied about a lot of cool things to get the Dwarves to take the rings. Got it. Why do you think that the Dwarves wouldn't get any positive type powers out of the rings when every other race did? Also, if you're right about the rings not giving them any cool powers and Sauron just lied about a lot of cool things, why would the Dwarves have kept the rings around after finding that they didn't do anything for them? There was a period when everyone had their rings and Sauron didn't have the One Ring on.


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## Iluisa Olórin (Apr 11, 2003)

> Okay, so you're just saying that you don't know what positive powers the rings had for the Dwarves and you don't want to try guessing.



No. It is not that I don't know: *we are not told* that the Rings had positive powers for the Dwarves; instead *we are told* they only made them greedier.



> Why do you think that the Dwarves wouldn't get any positive type powers out of the rings when every other race did?



I've already alluded to that: the Dwarves were already prone to accepting the Rings because of what they were, so why would Sauron go to the effort of giving them positive powers, rather than perhaps just lying about their virtues? (I'm not saying that's what he did; just that it's highly plausible).

The Elves' Rings only had positive powers because they weren't sullied by Sauron.



> Also, if you're right about the rings not giving them any cool powers and Sauron just lied about a lot of cool things, why would the Dwarves have kept the rings around after finding that they didn't do anything for them? There was a period when everyone had their rings and Sauron didn't have the One Ring on.



That's simple and, again, I've already given you the answer: once the Dwarves had the Rings, they succumbed to Sauron's will, through the One Ring (whether he had possession of it made no difference whatsoever); they had no will to dispense with them.


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## YayGollum (Apr 11, 2003)

Iluisa person, if you're not told about something, then do you have any knowledge of it? I didn't think so. So you don't know what the positive type powers of the Dwarf rings were. I already know what's been told about how Sauron used the things to be evil. 

Anyways, so you are now saying that you think (I don't see proof. Whoops!) that the Dwarf rings didn't have any positive type powers because Sauron didn't bother adding any. Why did the humans get nice and positive powers? I don't get why the Dwarf rings would be any different. Also, I'm guessing that you don't have a very high opinion of these guys. You think they'd superly appreciate something that never helps them out when they notice that all of the other rings were very useful for everyone else? 

And Yikes! Why do you think that the rings would mess with the Dwarves' brains without Sauron and his One Ring? The elves were able to use their rings for all kinds of good until he put his ring on. When it got lost, they were able to use them again. Before Sauron put his One Ring on, the humans were able to use their rings for all kinds of good, but when he put the thing on, he started corrupting them. Where do you see that these Dwarf rings would mess with them for no good reason?


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## Iluisa Olórin (Apr 11, 2003)

> Iluisa person, if you're not told about something, then do you have any knowledge of it?



Yes: one can more safely deduce that no *physical* powers were conferred on the Dwarves than one can assume that powers allowing them to find gold or to make more gold appear were.



> Anyways, so you are now saying that you think (I don't see proof. Whoops!) that the Dwarf rings didn't have any positive type powers because Sauron didn't bother adding any.



No: the proof has been given several times already and it lies in what Tolkien tells us. You are not reading what has been posted already and that is making responding to you incredibly frustrating.  



> Why did the humans get nice and positive powers? I don't get why the Dwarf rings would be any different. Also, I'm guessing that you don't have a very high opinion of these guys. You think they'd superly appreciate something that never helps them out when they notice that all of the other rings were very useful for everyone else?



What positive powers did the humans get?

Yet again, the answer to the Dwarves' Rings' lack of powers has already been stated: why would Sauron go to the effort of giving them positive powers when they were already prone to accepting the Rings?

How do you figure I don't have a high opinion of the Dwarves? Again, you are not reading what has been posted: once the Dwarves had the Rings, they succumbed to Sauron's will, through the One Ring; they had no will to dispense with them.



> And Yikes! Why do you think that the rings would mess with the Dwarves' brains without Sauron and his One Ring?



Oh, come on! The One Ring, whether Sauron had possession of it or not, controlled the other Rings of Power: Sauron poured his power into the One Ring.



> The elves were able to use their rings for all kinds of good until he put his ring on. When it got lost, they were able to use them again. Before Sauron put his One Ring on, the humans were able to use their rings for all kinds of good, but when he put the thing on, he started corrupting them. Where do you see that these Dwarf rings would mess with them for no good reason?



Sauron *did not corrupt* the Elves' Rings. The humans were able to use their Rings for good? Really? More likely for what appeared to them to be good... The whole point of Sauron's giving the Rings, including the Dwarves, was to corrupt them to his will. Again, whether Sauron was wearing the One Ring made no difference: his very power was tied to it.


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## YayGollum (Apr 12, 2003)

I don't get that first little thing you're talking about. You're saying that I should be able to figure out that the Dwarf rings had no positive type powers just because they were never talked about? That doesn't make much sense to me as I've already said. All of the other rings had positive type powers, so I would naturally assume that the Dwarves would get some, too.

I have read and understood everything you've been telling me. sorry if I'm misunderstanding things or not accepting them. 

I already said what the positive type powers for the humans were. The Sil. says ---> "Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old. They obtained glory and great wealth...They had, as it seemed, unending life...They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men." Sounds like some positive type things to me. Or am I just crazy? 

Yet again ---> Why would Sauron go to the trouble to give all of the other rings powers and not the Dwarf rings? You say it's because Dwarves would naturally snatch up any golden thing offered to them. I say that they would wonder why they don't get any cool powers. Dwarves are just a stereotype of greedy humans, it seems to many people to be. Therefore, Sauron didn't have to toss powers at the rings for the humans, either. 

About this One Ring thing, I was under the impression that the One Ring was made last and as soon as Sauron put the thing on and started using his will for all kinds of evilness with it, it started messing with the brains of anyone with another ring of power on. You keep talking about the elf rings being unsullied. Didn't matter. The elves pulled their rings off as soon as they sensed that Sauron could mess with their brains. The elves had to wait until he didn't have his ring anymore before they could use theirs again. They had all kinds of fun before he put the thing on. just like the humans and Dwarves. I assume. The humans and Dwarves had nice little positive type powers to use with their rings before Sauron started messing with them. I assume. I don't see why you wouldn't.


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## jallan (Apr 12, 2003)

From Tolkien’s letter to Milton Waldman:


> The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention of slowing of _decay_ (i.e. ‘change’ viewed as a regrettable thing), the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance – this is more or less an Elvish motive. But also they enhanced the natural powers of a possessor – thus approaching ‘magic’, a motive easily corruptible into evil, a lust for domination. And finally they had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron ‘the Necromancer’: so he is called as he casts a fleeting shadow and presage on the pages of _The Hobbit_): such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible.


The Dwarves were immune to the invisibility effects and accordingly never faded to become wraiths under Sauron’s control, nore did the preserving effects of the Rings lengthen their lives, but that does not mean that the Dwarves could not use the Rings in some fashion.

As has already been quoted:


> They used their rings nlly for the getting of wealth; but wrath and an overmastering greed of gold were kindled in their hearts, of which evil enough after came to the profit of Sauron. It is said that the foundation of each of the Seven Hoards of the Dwarf-kings of old was a golden ring; ...


From Appendix A, III “Durin’s Folk”


> Of the Ring he said to Thráin at their parting:
> ‘   This may prove the foundation of new fortune for you yet, though that seems unlikely. But it needs gold to breed gold. ’


And later:


> But, as Thrór had said, the Ring needed gold to breed gold, and of that or any other precious metal they had little or none.


Certainly there is here some idea that a Dwarf possessor of a Ring could increase his supply of gold with the Ring, but Tolkien gives no indication of how this is done.

Magical muliplication of gold already possessed does not _feel_ right to me. The idea may be that the power of a Ring could be used to influence trade to the benefit of the Dwarf holding the Ring, but not if you have little or no gold to trade with to begin with.

Tolkien is certainly not clear, and may be mysterious on purpose, even to himself, about how the Dwarves secretly used their rings to get wealth.

Interesting, if these Rings were the foundation of the seven hoards, rings given to the Dwarves only in the second Age, this suggests the hoards did not exist earlier, at least not of such great size to be widely famed.


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## YayGollum (Apr 12, 2003)

Yes, that's what I'm asking. just wondering if anybody knew what powers these Dwarf rings had. Looks like we don't really know the specifics. oh well. Thanks. They used them just to get gold. Somehow. Anyways, that makes me think that they could have used them in other ways, too. Too bad. It would have been cool if they were able to use them to preserve their little kingdoms.


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## Thindraug_2 (Apr 13, 2003)

why doesn't sauron because invisable when he puts the one ring


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## jallan (Apr 13, 2003)

Maybe Sauron did become invisible when he wore the One Ring.

Are we ever told that he didn’t?

Of course he still might not be invisible to all eyes, eyes that could see into the Wraith-world. Some of the Elves might be able to perceive him even if he were invisible to Men. Perhaps he might even be seen by Men who were trained.

All this is idle guessing.

All the Rings but the Three also had the power to make make visible the invisible it is quite likely that Sauron, when he wore the a Ring of Power, could be visible or not, as he chose.

Sauron had regained the Nine Nazgûl Rings and most of the Dwarf Rings, but Gollum refers to Sauron having only three fingers on his hand, indicating Sauron, at least once, showed himself in visible form to Gollum.


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## Thindraug_2 (Apr 13, 2003)

yeah but when the dude cut off his finger he had the ring on and then he went puff into dust well it's in the movie. and that's how that guy came to find the ring so how come Sauron doesn't because invisable when he puts the ring on. head hurt me confused!


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## YayGollum (Apr 13, 2003)

Sauron would be able to turn his invisibility off and on with the Ring on as far as I know. Since he's the LOTR. Anyways, wasn't Galadriel's ring invisible? oh well. Did you mean to say that Sauron only had four fingers, jallan person? Maybe not. *runs away*


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## jallan (Apr 13, 2003)

Well, supposedly the Three Rings of the Elves, being untouched by Sauron, did not give the power of invisibility.

However it appears that Elrond, Galadriel and Gandalf were able to render the Rings themselves invisible to most eyes.

Whether this was through a power of the Ring or by some other enchantment we are not told.

As to number of fingers, Gollum says “four” but I think he means three fingers and one thumb.

Just like Mickey Mouse!


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## YayGollum (Apr 14, 2003)

Well, there ya go. If the rings get to be invisible, then they have some kind of power of invisibility. Where did you get the idea that they didn't? just because the people didn't become invisible? oh well. Anyways, Ack! Okay, fine. Three fingers and a thumb. Same thing.


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## Thindraug_2 (Apr 14, 2003)

so peoples... umm... sh... they have... umm... less finges then us??  I'm getting even more confused


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## YayGollum (Apr 14, 2003)

Is that the only thing you're confused about? We were talking about Sauron having only three fingers and a thumb. One finger was chopped off in some big battle where he lost his Ring.


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## William Amos (Apr 18, 2003)

A few key points from my memory others might expand upon it.

As I recall Sauron did not MAKE any of the other rings. It was the elven Craftsmen that made them. I remember the passage that Said Sauron learned the craft of ring making and used that to create the one ring.

In fact Sauron CAPTURED the 9 rings for men when he invaded Eregon and killed Celebrimbor in an effort to take all the rings. 

The rest of this is just a GUESS has no basis in Tolkiens works.

Id say probably what the rings for dwarves did was made the Dwarves sensitive to finding precious metals underground. I was thinking that when a dwarf wearing the ring passed near gold or mithril it would give some type of sensation or glow to let the wearer know there was something close. That would be a valuable trinket for a dwarf.

For men Id say their rings PROLONGED life. That would be what Mortal men would treasure most. 

and the Elven Rings seem to enhance creativity. I wonder if Galadreil used hers to create Mallorn trees ? I think The even rings enhanced anything that the user created. 

But as stated this is all speculation.


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## jallan (Apr 18, 2003)

YayGollum posted:


> If the rings get to be invisible, then they have some kind of power of invisibility. Where did you get the idea that they didn't? just because the people didn't become invisible?


From Tolkien’s letter to Milton Waldman, published as a preface in the second edition of _The Silmarillion_ and as letter 131 in _Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien_. Tolkien speaks first about the rings made by the Elves with Sauron’s aid and then speaks of the Three:


> And finally they had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron (‘the Necromancer’: so he is called as he casts a fleeting shadow and presage on the pages of _The Hobbit_): such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible.
> The Elves of Eregion made Three supremely beautiful and powerful rings, almost solely of their own imagination, and directed to the preservation of beauty: they did not confer invisibility.


The invisibility powers of the lesser Rings, the Nine and the Seven (and the One) came from Sauron. The Three were untouched by Sauron and had no such powers.

William Amos posted:


> Id say probably what the rings for dwarves did was made the Dwarves sensitive to finding precious metals underground. I was thinking that when a dwarf wearing the ring passed near gold or mithril it would give some type of sensation or glow to let the wearer know there was something close. That would be a valuable trinket for a dwarf.


But as I already posted, from Appendix A, III “Durin’s Folk&#8221:


> Of the Ring he said to Thráin at their parting:
> ‘This may prove the foundation of new fortune for you yet, though that seems unlikely. But it needs gold to breed gold.’


Something more subtle than using the Ring to detect precious metals in the earth seems indicated here.


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## YayGollum (Apr 18, 2003)

As to the quote you tossed over here just for me, I'd say that it's obviously wrong. You've never noticed that part where it was talking about Galdriels's ring being invisible? Anyways, I don't see why the power of the Dwarf rings can't just be what this other person's suggesting. It needs gold to breed gold. That can mean that you need the Dwarf ring to find other gold. Doesn't matter much to me, though. I was just wondering. It doesn't look like there's a definite answer anywhere.


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## jallan (Apr 19, 2003)

YayGollum posted:


> As to the quote you tossed over here just for me, I'd say that it's obviously wrong.


Why is something written by Tolkien between the finishing and publishing of _The Lord of the Rings_ to be discarded as _obviously_ wrong?


> You've never noticed that part where it was talking about Galdriels's ring being invisible?


From my own previous post:


> However it appears that Elrond, Galadriel and Gandalf were able to render the Rings themselves invisible to most eyes.
> 
> Whether this was through a power of the Ring or by some other enchantment we are not told.


_Obviously_ I noticed the tension and commented on it. Whether Tolkien intended that the Rings might be used to conceal themselves or intended other kinds of enchantment to be understood, I do not know. If the former, being able to use the Rings to conceal those Rings is not the same as “rendering invisible the material body” of the wearer and having the power to “confer invisibility”.

To put it another way, the Three might be, when desired by their owners, invisible Rings, but they were not Rings that could make their wearers invisible, unlike the other Rings of Power. They might be, sometimes, invisible Rings, but they were not Rings of Invisibility.


> Anyways, I don't see why the power of the Dwarf rings can't just be what this other person's suggesting. It needs gold to breed gold. That can mean that you need the Dwarf ring to find other gold.


I don’t understand this at all. If the Ring could be used like a precious metal dowsing wand or a geiger counter, then why would one need some of the substance to find that substance?

Tolkien’s wording sounds to me something like the proverbial expression:


> You need money to make money.


What lies behind Tolkien’s expression I don’t know, but one doesn’t need radioactive substances to sense radioactive substances with a geiger counter and one doesn’t need metal (other than the metal it is made of) to find metal with a metal detector.

Thrór’s comments don’t make sense if he only needed a very small amount of gold, say a nugget or two. Thrór and Thráin could surely obtain that much. The meaning must be that the Ring could not produce wealth without a more substantial amount of gold than Thrór believed could be obtained in other ways in the forseeable future.


> Doesn't matter much to me, though. I was just wondering. It doesn't look like there's a definite answer anywhere.


No, it doesn’t seem so. But possibly somewhere someone has read something that Tolkien might also have read that might explain what he was imagining.


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## YayGollum (Apr 19, 2003)

Okay, it looks like the only way you think that rings get to have a power of invisibility is if they make the person wearing it invisible. I didn't think that. sorry. I'm thinking that if the ring can become invisible, it must have some invisible type powers. Silly me. Sure, it could be some creepy power the elf has, but I doubt it. If they have cool powers like that, why don't they use them more often? oh well. There's no way I can prove it either way. just tossing ideas out there. I hope you get what I mean. 

The Dwarf ring thing I was talking about meant ---> It takes gold to breed gold. The Dwarf ring could have been made out of gold. The first gold they were talking about was the gold of the ring. Get it? I don't see why it having the power to find more gold is so unbelievable. Sure, it's not very exciting, but it still makes sense.


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## jallan (Apr 20, 2003)

YayGollum posted:


> Sure, it could be some creepy power the elf has, but I doubt it. If they have cool powers like that, why don't they use them more often?


Tolkien seems to enjoy not being explicit about Elf powers and differences from Men.

That Legolas can run lightly on snow that ought to sink under his weight is thrown into the chapter “The Ring Goes South” but not hinted at anywhere else. In the _Silmarillion_ material Finrod uses magical illusionary powers to make himself and his companions appear to be Orcs with no hint of such an Elvish enchantments anywhere else.

Keeping such things mysterious or, to use your term, YayGollum, “creepy” makes them aesthetically more effective then to give us a cut and dried list and explanation of standard Elvish “super powers”.

Probably Tolkien himself would not have claimed or wished to _know_ exactly what particular Elves might or might not be able to do in the matter of enchantments or displays of non-human ability.



> The first gold they were talking about was the gold of the ring. Get it? I don't see why it having the power to find more gold is so unbelievable. Sure, it's not very exciting, but it still makes sense.


Yes, the Dwarven Rings were presumably made of gold. But Thror’s claim that the Ring is unlikely to be able to gain them a new hoard in the forseeable future because it needs gold to breed gold indicates Tolkien means something other than being able to use the Ring as a finder of valueable mineral weatlh.

I agree it seems quite reasonable to use a Ring to find mineral wealth, if it could so be used. But Tolkien’s few indications suggest he was not considering such use of the Ring, rather was considering the _breeding_ gold into larger amounts of gold, but not being able to simply start with a very small amount.

I don’t understand what he did have in mind, but can’t make magical finding of gold fit with the words he uses.


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## YayGollum (Apr 20, 2003)

Got it. You think that the elves used some kind of creepy magic to keep the rings invisible for some unknown reason. I think that the rings had some crazy power to stay invisible. oh well. I don't see how either of us can prove what we think is right. Anyways, sure, I can see why you might think that the Dwarf rings might have some other powers, but the only one that I think is really hinted at is that it can help you out with getting more gold. I see nothing else that says what might be some Dwarf ring powers.


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## jallan (Apr 22, 2003)

I don’t think the Elven rings statyed invisible naturally, but that this was by will of the bearers, who were keeping them secret.

As to how ... though a power of these Rings or by another kind of enchantment or some mixture, since Tolkien does not say one really cannot know.

The technology of magic is inexplicable or it would become science fiction instead, a mode of writing which Tolkien appreciated but did not himself employ in any of his published works.

As to Dwarf Ring powers, they were, according to Tolkien the same general powers all the Great Rings had. The Dwarves only used them to obtain gold, according to Tolkien.

But Tolkien does not state is _how_ they were used, other than that to breed gold a Dwarf ring needed gold.

That is the puzzle. How would that work? And why? It doesn’t seem like simple detection of gold in the earth was what Tolkien had in mind.


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## YayGollum (Apr 22, 2003)

But you can see why people might think that. oh well. When I asked the question, I was hoping that the answer had been talked about in one of the books I haven't read. oh well.


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## SpencerC18 (Apr 23, 2003)

I think he pretty much just gave rings to one decendant of each of the 7 original dwarven dribes, like Dain's tribe or something.


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## YayGollum (Apr 24, 2003)

Oh? Do the books say that somewhere? I forget. What, did Sauron waltz around Middle Earth, going to find all seven of those Dwarves? Or did they all hear their local town crier shouting something about some dude over in Moria that was handing out cool rings?


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## Iluisa Olórin (Apr 24, 2003)

No, YayGollum: I'd say the Rings just magically fell out of the sky onto the fingers of the Dwarves, like wonderful magical rings


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## YayGollum (Apr 24, 2003)

Is that so? Sounds crazy to me. oh well. Wait. You were being sarcastic. I guess that means you have no idea what the answer is to the question we're talking about now. Whoops! Yes, sarcasm is always useful.


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## Iluisa Olórin (Apr 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by YayGollum_
> Oh? Do the books say that somewhere? I forget. What, did Sauron waltz around Middle Earth, going to find all seven of those Dwarves? Or did they all hear their local town crier shouting something about some dude over in Moria that was handing out cool rings?
> 
> ...
> ...



I guess it is.


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## YayGollum (Apr 24, 2003)

Oh, what's wrong with being sarcastic while seriously asking what people thought about those ideas? It didn't seem like you were being very serious when you said something like this ---> "No, YayGollum: I'd say the Rings just magically fell out of the sky onto the fingers of the Dwarves, like wonderful magical rings." sorry for assuming that you weren't being serious, but I don't see why you'd think that about the quote of mine you just used.

Oo! I forgot to ask this. What's that craziness supposed to mean in that little deap thought area of yours? Or are we all expected to go look the thing up? It's not like we all have whatever you need to translate that.


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## Iluisa Olórin (Apr 24, 2003)

Yes, YayGollum: you are all expected to go look up the "deap thought area craziness."


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## YayGollum (Apr 24, 2003)

Okay, maybe when I said that little ---> "It's not like we all have whatever you need to translate that." thing, I should have said something more like ---> I am not able to translate the thing. I'm sure that I wouldn't be achingly interested in it, but you know, I think it's a little rude for you to just assume that everyone has the ability to figure things like that out. If you want to keep everything a big secret, you could just PM me with it.


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## Iluisa Olórin (Apr 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by YayGollum_
> I think it's a little rude for you to just assume that everyone has the ability to figure things like that out.



You're a real piece of work, YayGollum. *You* assume that I assume that everyone has the ability to figure it out.

If you find someone's writing in a language you don't understand to be rude, then that's your problem; I certainly won't be apologising for it. I will, however, be pitying your bigotry.

For what it's worth, the language is (obviously) Elvish - if you know anything about Tolkien works. Pull your head out of the sand.


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## YayGollum (Apr 24, 2003)

Okay. Got it. You're not assuming that everyone is able to figure the translation out. I'm just wondering why you wouldn't provide a translation, then. If you happen to know that not everyone is able to look it up. It doesn't seem like you're into telling people what it means, so I jumped on the assumption that you're just having fun with keeping people in the dark. Whoops! oh well. 

I never asked for any apologies. I don't pay attention to many, anyways. Yay for me being pitiful!  

Anyways, sure, I guessed that it might be some crazy language of Tolkien's, but I wasn't going to say it. just in case it was some crazy real life thing. 

Isn't it just so much fun going off topic?


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## Ancalagon (Apr 25, 2003)

Hehe, just read this thread, cover to cover and it was excellent! YG, that is a wonderfully thought-provoking question; Why did the Dwarves accept Rings of Power that had no apparent power? Excellent stuff


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## SpencerC18 (Apr 25, 2003)

Well I was just using common sense, because everyone has it, to a varying degree. 7 rings and 7 tribes seems logical to me. Sarcasm really wasn't necessary above, but it was funny so I'll let you off this time. lol


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## YayGollum (Apr 25, 2003)

Well, sure. Got it. I'm full of common sense, too. Look at what that Ancalagon person said.  Anyways, yes, it makes all kinds of sense that the seven Dwarf rings would go to the seven Dwarves in charge. I was just wondering how they got the things. Did they walk up to Sauron, or did Sauron walk up to them? No big deal.


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## Inderjit S (Apr 27, 2003)

> Anyways, yes, it makes all kinds of sense that the seven Dwarf rings would go to the seven Dwarves in charge



Their couldn't be 'Seven Dwarves in Charge' since there weren’t Seven fathers/descendants of the seven fathers at the time of the forging of the ring. The Firebeards and Broadbeams (Nogrodian and Belegostian) Dwarves excavated into Moria after the sinking of Beleriand, and it is probable that they were under the rule of Durin's descendants and were integrated into Khazad-dum. 
As for the descendants of the fathers of the other Dwarves, the Ironfists, Stiffbeards, Blacklocks and Stonefoots they may have each been given a Ring of power, them being wholly independent kingdoms. It is said that some of them turned to evil, could this be because of the rings, though remember Androg's words to Mim concerning the unfriendliness of the Eastern Dwarves, or at least some of them 
It is my view that Four were given to the Four leaders of the seperate Dwarvish clans and three to other important Dwarves (Someone like Narvi), say a great craftsman or a cousin/brother of a King.


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## YayGollum (Apr 27, 2003)

Well, you know. The people that you just said you think three other rings went to were also in charge of something. I assumed that they had to be some kind of important people since some book says that the rings ended up in the middle of some huge piles of treasure. oh well. Got it. You don't know how the seven Dwarves got the seven rings. just trying to ask questions having to do with this thread. Anything else?


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## jallan (Apr 28, 2003)

Inderjit S posted:


> Their couldn't be 'Seven Dwarves in Charge' since there weren’t Seven fathers/descendants of the seven fathers at the time of the forging of the ring. The Firebeards and Broadbeams (Nogrodian and Belegostian) Dwarves excavated into Moria after the sinking of Beleriand, and it is probable that they were under the rule of Durin's descendants and were integrated into Khazad-dum.


In Appendix A III “Durin’s Folk”, Tolkien only says:


> After the end of the First Age the power and wealth of Khazad-dûm was much increased; for it was enriched by many people and much lore and craft when the ancient cities of Nogrod and Belegost in the Blue Mountains were ruined at the breaking of Thangorodrim.


This certainly indicates a flooding into Moria of many folk from the Blue Mountains.

But does not indicate all migrated there. The Dwraves still had mines in the Blue Mountains at the time of _The Lord of the Rings_, possibly worked and dwelt in by descendants of the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost possibly ruled by descendants of the royal families of the First Age.

Tolkien is silent here, but certainly does not say that all the descendants of Dwarvish folk of Nogrod and Belegost were merged into the Longbeard race.


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## Luthien Tunivel (May 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ancalagon _
> *Hehe, just read this thread, cover to cover and it was excellent! YG, that is a wonderfully thought-provoking question; Why did the Dwarves accept Rings of Power that had no apparent power? Excellent stuff *



Well, this may be a wonderful thought provoking question, but it's giving me a headache! 

And my opinion about the rings is that the dwarves belived that they could bring them more treasure, but they really couldn't. In other words, they couldn't lead them to a gold source, or make gold magically appear, but the dwarves thought they could so they kept them. And I do belive that there was one ring for every "race" of dwarves.


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## Ithrynluin (May 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Luthien Tunivel _
> *And my opinion about the rings is that the dwarves belived that they could bring them more treasure, but they really couldn't. In other words, they couldn't lead them to a gold source, or make gold magically appear, but the dwarves thought they could so they kept them. *



What would be the point of forging these rings in the first place if they had no powers at all? Why would the smiths of Eregion do that?

Welcome to the forum.


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## meneldor (Mar 24, 2004)

Maybe Sauron implicated when the rings were given that they would lead them to unimaginable wealth, dwarves already naturally fixated on wealth glady accepted. But I believe that the only power given into the ring was an intensified greed. Sauron probably invisioned the dwarves destroying themselves in the process. If a man out on the street walked up to you and handed you a ring and told you to keep it, that it would bring you very good fortune most people would take it.


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## Melian_the_Maya (Mar 25, 2004)

Dwarves were not greedy for simple jewels. They wanted powers over mithril and steel and rock, but not inimaginable wealth. They did not derive from the course they started out with as much as Men for instance. The rings of the dwarves would probably confer superiour craftsmanship, because that was what they were after. If that power had been greed, they would have turned into the Short Seven, Ringwraiths to join the Nazgul. Instead those rings Sauron tried to collect to himself.


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## meneldor (Mar 26, 2004)

Appendix A Durins Folk " For the dwarves had proved to be untameable by these means. The only power over them that the rings wielded was to inflame their hearts with a greed of gold and precious things, so that if they lacked them all other good things weemed profitless, and they were filled with wrath and desire for vengeance on all who deprived them.. Further down it talks of Thrains lust for gold, and how he went crazy at the end of his days. Now there had to be desire first in their minds for riches, for the rings to work iin the first pace, would you agree? It is no doubt that the dwarves spent their much of their days crafted some of the finest armor and weaponary in middle earth but the desire for wealth was there also. Otherwise we wouldnt have the Hobbit.


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