# Middle Earth's "w.m.d."



## Thorondor_ (Jul 20, 2006)

There is this rather interesting passage in the The Lost Road:


The fall of Numenor said:


> The old line of the lands remained as a plain of air upon which only the Gods could walk, and the Eldar who faded as Men usurped the sun. But many of the Numenorie could see it or faintly see it; and tried to devise ships to sail on it. But they achieved only ships that would sail in Wilwa or lower air. Whereas the Plain of the Gods cut through and traversed Ilmen [in] which even birds cannot fly, save the eagles and hawks of Manwe. But the fleets of the Numenorie sailed round the world; and Men took them for gods. Some were content that this should be so.


In the Hobbit, Tolkien also hinted at orcs as having cannons ("ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once "). What do you think about his intention of endowing his archaic world with such modern weaponry?


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## HLGStrider (Jul 20, 2006)

I brought up once whether or not gun powder was being used as a weapon in LotR's, which I thought of before the Two Towers came out and that whole scene with the Olympic Torch race . . . 

Anyway, my points was that with fireworks we can assume they had gun powder. In the Return of the King awful machines are mentioned in the battle of Pelinor fields. (I don't have my book anywhere near me. I should be working now, actually.). It assume that they had something like gun powder to be used as a weapon. 

Gun powder is an older discovery, when you trace it back to China, plus despite it being in the dark ages tech wise, Middle Earth is an old world. Sauron had the advantage of living through the rise and fall of cultures. Whenever all was destroyed and lost to memory, he could remember. Because of this the forces of darkness would have had a technological advantage.

Does that make sense?


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## baragund (Jul 20, 2006)

Tolkien's earliest writings on the sack of Gondolin also had some descriptions of terrible monsters and "creatures" of metal that could easily be interpreted as symbolic of modern weaponry. The earliest tale "The Fall of Gondolin" was written soon after he left the army and I'm sure his memories of WWI were still pretty fresh.

Thorondor's quote from HOME VI is really interesting. It strikes me as a reference to the invention of airplanes and even of space travel. When was that passage written? I wonder if Sputnik had been launched by the time Tolkien wrote it/


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## HLGStrider (Jul 20, 2006)

Either that or Tolkien was a fan of Jules Verne without our knowledge. . .


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## Thorondor_ (Jul 21, 2006)

In the preface to the quoted text, Chris said:


> I conclude therefore that 'Numenor' (as a distinct and formalised conception, whatever 'Atlantis-haunting', as my father called it, lay behind) arose in the actual context of his discussions with C. S. Lewis in (as seems probable) 1936.


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## Neumy (Aug 24, 2006)

The discussion of gunpowder I have read before. However, the sentence that I've never noticed before was: 


> But they achieved only ships that would sail in Wilwa or lower air.


I'd love to hear what people think about that! What consists of "Lower air"? It almost sounds like Final Fantasy and their air-ships. Very interesting!


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## Thorondor_ (Aug 25, 2006)

Wilwa is the Earth's atmosphere; it was previously reffered to as Vista:


Of the fashion of the world said:


> Above the Earth liesthe Air,which is called Vista, and sustains birds and clouds.


About Vista, there was Ilmen, which would the upper atmosphere, sitting upon Vista.


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## Starbrow (Aug 29, 2006)

Most of the places in Middle Earth seem to have a Medieval feel to them. However, the shire seemed different, more advanced. It seems more like the 18th or 19th century to me. Think about the things Bilbo had given away in "A Long-expected Party:" an umbrella, a waste-paper basket, pen and ink-bottle, a mirror, a bookcase, and, of course, a case of silver spoons. These were not common items in an archaic world. So, in a later time period, cannons and gunpowder would not be out of place.


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## Thorondor_ (Aug 30, 2006)

True enough; though what Tolkien had in mind was some sort of a lost civilisation of some sorts when considering his Middle-Earth and its technological advancements - given the dating of his imaginary era:


Letter #165 said:


> 'Middle-earth', by the way, is not a name of a never-never land without relation to the world we live in (like the Mercury of Eddison). It is just a use of Middle English middel-erde (or erthe), altered from Old English Middangeard: the name for the inhabited lands of Men 'between the seas'. And though I have not attempted to relate the shape of the mountains and land-masses to what geologists may say or surmise about the nearer past, imaginatively this 'history' is supposed to take place in a period of the actual Old World of this planet.


Would you agree with the lost civ idea? After all, Tolkien did have a thing for Atlantis...


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