# Where the Númenóreans destined to perish?



## Maedhros (Aug 30, 2002)

Even thought with all the gifts that the Valar and Eldar gave the Númenóreans, were they destined to be trapped by jealousy towards them. Couldn't they have saved their city and land. Was this their destiny?


> Now this yearning grew ever greater with the years; and the Númenóreans began to hunger for the undying city that they saw from afar, and the desire of everlasting life, to escape from death and the ending of delight, grew strong upon them; and ever as their power and glory grew greater their unquiet increased. For though the Valar had rewarded the Dúnedain with long life, they could not take from them the weariness of the world that comes at last, and they died, even their kings of the seed of Eärendil; and the span of their lives was brief in the eyes of the Eldar. Thus it was that a shadow fell upon them: in which maybe the will of Morgoth was at work that still moved in the world. And the Númenóreans began to murmur, at first in their hearts, and then in open words, against the doom of Men, and most of all against the Ban which forbade them to sail into the West.


And this was before Sauron had come to Númenor.


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## Gothmog (Aug 30, 2002)

Were the Númenóreans destined to perish? In a word, No.


> For it is said that after the departure of the Valar there was silence, and for an age Ilúvatar sat alone in thought. Then he spoke and said: 'Behold I love the Earth, which shall be a mansion for the Quendi and the Atani! But the Quendi shall be the fairest of all earthly creatures, and they shall have and shall conceive and bring forth more beauty than all my Children; and they shall have the greater bliss in this world. But to the Atani I will give a new gift.' Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest.


 The Silmarillion: Chapter 1: Of the Beginning of Days

So it was not destined that Númenór would fall, although it is undoubtedly true that it was inevitable that the Númenóreans would be tempted. However, it was also true that since "they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur". They could have saved themselves, their city and the Land of Gift. But few were able to do this and Sauron only gave the final push to those who had already thrown away the gifts of the Valar and of Eru himself.


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## Maedhros (Aug 30, 2002)

It is the destiny of Men to always search for the unknown, to yearn for better themselves. The Númenóreans had already long and happy lives, but they wanted the next thing, which was to be immortal.
And to make it worse, from Númenor you could see the Haven of Avallonë in Tol Eressëa. They could actually see the place where some elves lived and it only made their desire to go there even greater.


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## Niniel (Aug 31, 2002)

In the beginning they were not destined by Iluvatar to perish, since he gave them the power to shape their lives beyond the borders that were set by the music of the Ainur. On the other hand, after their creation Morgoth corrupted the world in such a way that Men were not satisfied any more with what they had, the gift both of life and death, and wanted to be immortal. I think that is what JRRT meant with 'Thus it was that a shadow fell upon them: in which maybe the will of Morgoth was at work that still moved in the world.' Maybe it's supposed to mean that thorugh Morgoth's will nobody is satisfied any more with the fate that is given them. Maybe the Numenoreans could have overcome this evil, but then Sauron turned up and made them rebel against the Valar, which resulted in their destruction.


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## Gothmog (Aug 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Maedhros _
> *It is the destiny of Men to always search for the unknown, to yearn for better themselves. The Númenóreans had already long and happy lives, but they wanted the next thing, which was to be immortal.
> And to make it worse, from Númenor you could see the Haven of Avallonë in Tol Eressëa. They could actually see the place where some elves lived and it only made their desire to go there even greater. *


Now this I totaly agree with. It is the very 'Inevitable Temptation' of which I spoke. The Númenóreans Walked a knife-edge, to step to either side was to fall. But as they had by the the will of Eru, the power to shape their lives outside of the Music, they could have walked that edge all the way to the ending of the World.


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## Eledhwen (Aug 31, 2002)

Nothing changes. Tolkien's observations of the Numenoreans' futile attempts to live longer, but impoverishing their characters and their lives in the process, was probably what he saw mankind doing - and we still are! Was their doom inevitable? Is ours? (sighs deeply and settles down into contemplative mode).


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## Lhunithiliel (Aug 31, 2002)

> And to make it worse, from Númenor you could see the Haven of Avallonë in Tol Eressëa. They could actually see the place where some elves lived and it only made their desire to go there even greater.



From where we live we can see the stars! Is it a "worse" thing?
I don't think so! It's, as they call it "a human nature" - to always seek for new boundaries, new challanges, new horizons. And this, IMO, and ONLY this makes us, humans, worth existing. 
This, I think and HOPE, will be our salvation.
And I'm speaking of humans, because aren't we the children of the Numenoreans?


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## Gil-Galad (Aug 31, 2002)

I agree with Lhunithiliel.All people are searching for "the absolute happiness"and because there aren't absolute things they will never stop searching for them.That's the reason for people's evolution,for people's development through the years.They're searching for something which is not real,they keep hope alive and never stop.
Having in mind these thoughts I thing that Numenorians would never stop searchin for Valinor and they will always desire for immortal life.For them that's "absolute happiness".Sauron just makes everything to happen faster.


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## Confusticated (Aug 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Lhunithiliel _
> *
> 
> From where we live we can see the stars! Is it a "worse" thing?
> ...




we as humans do reach for the stars, whether or not that is a 'worse thing'...is yet to be determined.


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## Lhunithiliel (Sep 8, 2002)

To continue this wonderful discussion:
It all started from the "beginning of the days:"


> It is said by the Eldar that Men came into the world in the time of the Shadow of Morgoth, and they fell swiftly under his dominion; for he sent his emissaries among them, and they listened to his evil and cunning words, and they worshipped the Darkness and yet feared it.


and:


> And the evil Men came among them, and cast over them a shadow of fear, and they took them for kings. Then the Valar forsook for a time the Men of Middle-earth who had refused their summons and had taken the friends of Morgoth to be their masters; and Men dwelt in darkness and were troubled by many evil things that Morgoth had devised in the days of his dominion: demons, and dragons, and misshapen beasts, and the unclean Orcs that are mockeries of the Children of Iluvatar. And the lot of Men was unhappy.


BUT!:


> But there were some that turned from evil and left the lands of their kindred, and wandered ever westward; for they had heard a rumour that in the West there was a light which the Shadow could not dim.


Yet:


> Yet the seeds that he had planted still grew and sprouted, bearing evil fruit, if any would tend them. For his will remained and guided his servants, moving them ever to thwart the will of the Valar and to destroy those that obeyed them.


All the above meaning that no matter who you are, what race you belong to (though we are speaking about Men in particular)," the seeds that he (Evil) had planted still grew and sprouted, bearing evil fruit".

So, the Numenoreans, as I understand, were destined NOT to perish, but to CHANGE. And they did. For worse of the better - another issue.


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## Maedhros (Sep 9, 2002)

Can it be that Lhunithiliel is quoting from the books? 
Wow.


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## Lhunithiliel (Sep 9, 2002)

> Can it be that Lhunithiliel is quoting from the books?


I am CHANGING, my good Maedhros!
Besides, some things are so beautifully said - why not quote them?!


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## Walter (Sep 11, 2002)

*Were the Númenoreans destined to perish?*

Sure a very interesting question, but it somehow reminds me of:

_Were Adam and Eve destined to eat the fruit of the forbidden tree?_

No, in both cases they were given the freedom of choice, but chose the "wrong". In case of the Númenoreans their greed, hunger for power and an everlasting life made them choose to set sails westwards.

But did they "know" that their choice would be the wrong one _before_ they chose? 

I do not think so. If you see the "paradise" within reach, why not try to get there? What if the ones that had forbidden you to try reaching it, had not your best interests in mind but their own? What if they lied and you could find salvation right at your fingertips? And the snake counsils you to just try...

Tempting, isn't it?

----
edited due to major typos


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## Dwimmerlaik (Sep 11, 2002)

There have been some excellent point's and observation's made here,and I would agree with most,especially Walter.
Just to be pedantic,though Numenor may have perished,not all of it's citizen's felt the need to go along with the general concensus.
Elendil,his son's and what was left of the faithful managed to escape in time.


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## Lhunithiliel (Sep 11, 2002)

Walter, you should have joined our guild AND you should have joined Team "B" in the current Debate!


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## Walter (Sep 11, 2002)

LOL Lhunithiliel, thanks for wanting me to join your guild, but I'm quite content with my job in Ost-in-Edhil, where I have to clean the tables and dishes (and politeness forbids to mention what else I have to clean there) and don't have to overly stress my mediocre intellect... 

But were I to take part in this "heavenly" debate, I would make sure to bring my copy of "The Screwtape Letters" and consult it frequently


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## Gil-Galad (Sep 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Walter _
> *LOL Lhunithiliel, thanks for wanting me to join your guild, but I'm quite content with my job in Ost-in-Edhil, where I have to clean the tables and dishes (and politeness forbids to mention what else I have to clean there) and don't have to overly stress my mediocre intellect...
> 
> But were I to take part in this "heavenly" debate, I would make sure to bring my copy of "The Screwtape Letters" and consult it frequently  *


hey Walter don't make us feeling sad for you.Cleaning dishes and tables...don't work so hard.


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## Gil-Galad (Sep 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Walter _
> *LOL Lhunithiliel, thanks for wanting me to join your guild, but I'm quite content with my job in Ost-in-Edhil, where I have to clean the tables and dishes (and politeness forbids to mention what else I have to clean there) and don't have to overly stress my mediocre intellect...
> 
> But were I to take part in this "heavenly" debate, I would make sure to bring my copy of "The Screwtape Letters" and consult it frequently  *


hey Walter don't make us feeling sad for you.Cleaning dishes and tables...don't work so hard.


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