# Which are the Two Towers?



## Greymantle (Nov 5, 2001)

*The Two Towers*

What do you think the "Two Towers" are? This obvious answer is Barad-dur and Orthanc, but I seem to remember reading (and perhaps Tolkien's old illustrations were this way too?) that the two towers are meant to be Minas Tirith and Minas Morgul. The watchtowers of Mordor are also referred to as the "two towers." What do you folks thing?


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## Talierin (Nov 5, 2001)

I've always thought it was Orthanc and Minas Morgul. Half the book takes place at Orthanc, and half at Minas Morgul.


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## Cian (Nov 5, 2001)

Tolkien wrangled about this in a couple letters to Allen & Unwin ~ and when asked to design dust cover jacket illustrations he sketched for TTT: _"probably Barad-dûr and Minas Tirith"_ (JRRT: Artist & Illustrator) ~ but Tolkien revised the jacket to Minas Morgul and Orthanc.


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## Merry (Nov 6, 2001)

I always thought that the two towers referred to Minas Tirith and Minas Morgul. I thought that they were both strong fortresses that were used as observation posts against the enemy in days long ago. It was only when Minas Morgul fell into enemy hands that it became Orthanc and Minas Tirith. Of course, I may be wrong!!


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## Lantarion (Nov 6, 2001)

I have also seen the Two towers as Minas Tirith and Barad-dur, but as the colors of the towers are not specified, one cannot be sure of that. They might also be the two slim watch-towers in Mordor, the Teeth. (I can't remember their blasted names right now.)


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## stratosphere (Nov 6, 2001)

i think you will find its Minas Tirith and Barad-dur..

tower of moon and sun...or somthin like that


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## Merry (Nov 6, 2001)

I remember there being a conversation in LOTR that gives the history of Minas Tirith and Barad-dur and how it fell into darkness and became Minas Morgul. I can't remember there being such description about the two towers in Mordor. (Am about to re-read that chapter so please correct me if I am wrong).


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## Talierin (Nov 6, 2001)

Minas Morgul is the tower were Frodo was held prisoner. Barad-dur was built by Sauron and it's in the middle of Mordor.


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## Greymantle (Nov 6, 2001)

Exaclty. Several people posted just the oppisite.
Just to clear this up:
Hopefully we all know what Minas Tirith is.
Minas Morgul is not Barad-dur. Minas Morgul was Minas Ithil, the Tower of the Moon built by Isildur, but it was taken over by Sauron and made evil.


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## stratosphere (Nov 6, 2001)

thats right ..

sorry in my post i got confused after read the last post was ment to say Minas Morgul and Minas Tirith


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## Cian (Nov 6, 2001)

Frodo escaped from Cirith Ungol


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## Greymantle (Nov 6, 2001)

Wait...how did Cirith Ungol get into this?


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## Talierin (Nov 6, 2001)

Cirith Ungol is the name of the pass over the mountains. Minas Morgul is the tower that is at the top of that pass.


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## Gothmog (Nov 6, 2001)

Minas Morgul is in Morgul Vale well below Cirith Ungol, the tower of Cirith Ungol is a different Tower.

Myself I always thought of the Two Towers as being Barad-dur and Orthanc as there was a direct conection between the two, The Palantiri of Orthanc and of Ithil, the latter had been taken when Minas Ithil was captured and was in the hands of Sauron.


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## Talierin (Nov 6, 2001)

Okay, you're right. The tower at the top is called The Tower of Cirith Ungol. The pass is also called Cirith Ungol. Minas Morgul is the orc city at the bottom of the valley of Morgulduin.


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## Merry (Nov 7, 2001)

Thanks guys, this is exactly why I am on this message board! I would have had the wrong info about the towers if you hadn't of explained it!

It makes me wonder what else I am not right on.....eek!

Regards from a junior member!!


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## Scooter (Nov 7, 2001)

Great! but there still seems to be no consensus -- 5 towers have been named: Barad-dur, Minas Ilith/Morgul, Cirith Ungol, Minas Tirith and Orthanc.

Cian cites a reference regarding JRRT's thoughts (which seem to be as inconstant as his readers! )



> _Originally posted by Cian _
> *Tolkien wrangled about this in a couple letters to Allen & Unwin ~ and when asked to design dust cover jacket illustrations he sketched for TTT: "probably Barad-dûr and Minas Tirith" (JRRT: Artist & Illustrator) ~ but Tolkien revised the jacket to Minas Morgul and Orthanc. *



Can anyone refute? I'd say if this is a good quote then Morgul/Orthanc would be his last thought. 

I always assumed that was the reference myself!


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## Tar-Steve (Nov 7, 2001)

I always thought it was Orthanc and Minas Morgul as well. I think I had read it somewhere ... probably a book jacket though.


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## Grond (Nov 7, 2001)

I've always felt that the Two Towers was about the struggle between Saruman and Sauron to possess the captured Hobbits. Remember all the crud with fighting between the Uruk-hai of the white hand and the orcs of the red eye. Very little of the Two Towers had anything to do with Minis Tirith, so I would say it is out.... but with Frodo being imprisoned in the tower of Minas Morgul (or was it Cirith Ungol? I always get confused between those two.) I can see where it would have to be considered. 

I guess I have to agree with a previous post that it is speaking of the Barad-dur and Orthanc. It's the only two that really make sense to me. But I can definately see other view points as well. After all, there are five towers featured in the tale.


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## Silnarion (Nov 8, 2001)

Alot of towers have been discussed. Theres too many combinations of relationships between all the towers to really pick a stand out. This is what I think the "Two Towers" really were...symbolism. The TT were (was) symbolic of the public revelation and defining of the two forces, good and evil, Sauron and Gandalf, building up against each other in the open, until they "resembled" Two Towers opposing each other for the final war.
Again I dont think any two physical towers were meant to be reflected. Thats my perspective...and there is probably some JRRT interview somewhere that marks me wrong.


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## Greymantle (Nov 9, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Silnarion _
> *Thats my perspective...and there is probably some JRRT interview somewhere that marks me wrong. *



Lol, that's the story of my life...


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## Telchar (Nov 9, 2001)

The towe of Cirith Ungol is not in Minas Morgul.. The Tower of Cirith Ungol is a watchtower, and it is here Frodo is brought after he's captured.. IIRC Frodo and Sam where nver in Minas Morgul..


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## Tulkas (Nov 12, 2001)

While reading a synopsis or something (doesn't matter) I found that Tolkien said they were Orthanc and Cirith Ungol.


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## Telchar (Nov 12, 2001)

I've read that somewhere too, but I can't remember where.. 
Doesn't Christopher Tolkien say something about it in HoME?


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## Scooter (Nov 12, 2001)

I'd be surprised to learn that JRRT intended CU as the second tower. Not that I can prove otherwise but the tower of Cirith Ungol plays a relatively small role in TT. Minas Morgul is much more central to the sense of dread that pervades Frodo's journey into Mordor.

I kinda like Grond's take on Barad-dur and Orthanc representing the struggle between Sauron and Saruman -- that's grown on me. A reading strictly from that perspective broadens the action and adds to the context of the "simpler" plot elements. Consider then that Wormtongue is not just a servant of Saruman but is a tool of Sauron's as well, set to hinder the company and the plans of all those who might oppose Sauron.

It would be interesting to reread (or just reconsider) LOTR from different perspectives. Choose a character (especially minor ones) and consider their motivation, how they might percieve actions. Can add a lot to the story I think. 

Or how about:
LOTR as a study of Class Struggle
from a Buddhist perspective
from a feminist perspective
compare/contrast with US Revolution 

Hmmm... off topic, no? but still interesting!


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## Tulkas (Nov 12, 2001)

Oops, my mistake. I just found where I read that and it was a prologue to Fellowship. But the 2 towers are ORTHANC and MINAS MORGUL. Sorry about that.


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## Silnarion (Nov 12, 2001)

I like what Scooter mentioned...Orthanc and Barad Dur. Ya throw my idea out, this sounds better.

Sounds like the best TT scenario. 

Why wasnt JRRT thoroughly interviewed about these kinds of things? So many questions left answered.


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## gil-estel (Nov 12, 2001)

i thought that it was minas morgul and orthanc as thats what it says at very end of fotr


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## Silnarion (Nov 12, 2001)

Yes but Minas Morgul is really just a "pawn" outpost of the real string puller, Barad Dur...if you want to think of it that way.


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## gil-estel (Nov 12, 2001)

True but you never really get the sense of evil that pervades from Morgul when Barad Dur is mentionned-the closest anyone gets is miles away. it might work better but they are never really in conflict orthanc and \barad dur-on eis always supreme whereas Morgul is about the sdame as Orthanc_saruman could probably hold his own against the Morgul king but not Sauron


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## Gothmog (Nov 12, 2001)

My original view was that the two towers were Orthanc and Barad-dur. However, after reading everything posted on here I have changed my mind (what little there is of it). 

Whether Saruman accepted it or not he was just a pawn of Sauron so this would make both Minas Morgul and Orthanc the Two main outposts of Mordor. So then, since all of the story in the Two Towers takes place between or around these, I have come to accept that it is Orthanc and Minas Morgul and the two leutenants of Sauron that are meant in the title.


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## gil-estel (Nov 12, 2001)

Still think that your idea had merits tho-i liked it but just read Breaking of fellowship and thats what it says at the end of that. but you're right saruman was just a puppet


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## Gothmog (Nov 12, 2001)

Thanks for reminding me about the end of The Breaking of the Fellowship, I just looked it up. I had forgoten about that part.


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## Cian (Nov 13, 2001)

> Why wasnt JRRT thoroughly interviewed about these kinds of things?



Tolkien did comment in two seperate letters about the issue however, the contents of which do not bring much "resolution"  

Marketed versions of _The Two Towers_ show Tolkiens own cover illustrations (Allen & Unwin asked the Prof to produce dust jacket designs) The towers featured (after revision) are _Minas Morgul_ and _Orthanc_ ~ agreeing with the mentioned blurb (though I don't know who wrote the blurb) found in, at least my, FotR editions ~ the blurb published during Tolkiens lifetime at any rate. Cheers.


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## ReadWryt (Nov 13, 2001)

(Taken from a letter to Rayner Unwin from August 17th, 1953) 




> "The Fellowship of the Ring will do, I think; and fits well with the fact that the last chapter of the Volume is The Breaking of the Fellowship. The Two Towers gets as near as possible to finding a title to cover the widely divergent Books 3 and 4; and can be left ambiguous - it might refer to Isengard and Barad-dur, or to Minas Tirith and B; or to Isengard and Cirth Ungol. On reflection I prefer for Vol. III The War of the Ring, since it gets in the Ring again; and also is more non-committal, and gives less hint about the turn of the story; the chapter titles have been chosen also to give away as little as possible in advance."



From letter #140 of the Y2K edition of The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien

As you can see, Tolkien really didn't have a concrete grasp on which pair it was himself apparently...


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## Scooter (Nov 13, 2001)

It appears there's quite a few reasons to believe that JRRT's intention was Morgul and Orthanc but it seems profitable to discuss the other alternatives as well. We all read the books with our own biases and opinions (even Tolkien! if we want to take the modern criticism approach) and it's illuminating to see the story from other readers viewpoints. 

BTW I was quoting Grond on the Barad-dur/Orthanc position. Let's give credit where it's due. I still like that interpretation best I think!

Thanks ReadWryt for a great quote! It seems that JRRT knew a great metaphor when he saw it. The "ambiguity" he refers to has done its job, allowing the meaning of the Two Towers to be as broad as the reader's imagination, thereby making it mean everything at once.

I say, therefor, that the 2 towers are Merry and Pippin!


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## Tar-Steve (Nov 13, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Cian _
> *
> Marketed versions of The Two Towers show Tolkiens own cover illustrations (Allen & Unwin asked the Prof to produce dust jacket designs) The towers featured (after revision) are Minas Morgul and Orthanc ~ agreeing with the mentioned blurb (though I don't know who wrote the blurb) found in, at least my, FotR editions ~ the blurb published during Tolkiens lifetime at any rate. Cheers. *



Does anyone know if there's a fan website with JRRT's artwork on it? My TT has Fangorn Forest on the cover by JRRT. (FoTR has his "Hobbiton" & RotK has his "Barad-dur") I'd love to see his other artwork.


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## Cian (Nov 13, 2001)

Since we now have one letter posted, here's another:



> "I am not at all happy about the title 'the Two Towers'. It must if there is any real reference in it to Vol II refer to _Orthanc_ and the _Tower of Cirith Ungol._ But since there is so much made of the basic opposition of the Dark Tower and Minas Tirith, that seems very misleading. There is, of course, no real connecting link between Books III and IV, when cut off and presented seperately as a volume."
> JRRT Jan 1954



For web Tolkien artwork, a good place is "Rolozo Tolkien" ~ has Tolkiens own.

Interestingly, the forest pic (with characters) used for TTT, was once Beleg finding Gwindor in the forest of Taur-nu-fuin.


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## Tulkas (Nov 13, 2001)

Nevertheless, even if Barad-dur would be the better, Tolkien says himself Minas Morgul.

BTW
I do think myself that Barad-dur would fit in as the 2nd tower better than Minas Morgul.


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## Grond (Nov 13, 2001)

You know Tolkien could have solved all this for us simply by naming the book "The Four Towers" or better even, "The Five Towers". I guess this thread has played out that even Tolkien wasn't committed to one set of towers and the reader gets to choose which pair best fits with his own interpretation of the text. I reiterate that I really like Barad-dur and Orthanc because of the basic struggle occurring between Saruman and Sauron at the time. I'm drawn back to the part of the book where Pippin peers into the Palantari and is confronted by Sauron who advises Pippin to tell Saruman that this morsel is not for him and that he will be sending someone for him...... but I could be wrong.


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## Lantarion (Nov 14, 2001)

You speak of a 'struggle' between Saruman and Sauron. But it couldn't have been a very serious struggle, because although Saruman is very powerful, Sauron is even more so! He could have 'bent his will' right into Orthanc and blasted Saruman to smithereens! 
But seriously: Sauron saw Saruman as his little pawn that was quite useful, and would not get in his way. I think that any 'struggle' going on between them was purely metaphorical. What Sauron wants, Sauron gets, basically. On the other hand, he didn't capture Frodo at any point.. Oh yeah, he didn't know about him.. Never mind. 
Another question: if the 'struggle' was such a small thing in the WR, why would Tolkien (or Unwin or whoever) name an entire section of the book after it? Hmmm..


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## Scooter (Nov 14, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Pontifex _
> *You speak of a 'struggle' between Saruman and Sauron. But it couldn't have been a very serious struggle, because although Saruman is very powerful, Sauron is even more so! He could have 'bent his will' right into Orthanc and blasted Saruman to smithereens!*



I think the struggle was quite serious. While it's true that Saruman was the unwitting pawn of Sauron, he was still a force to be reckoned with. Remember that Sauron and Saruman were both Maia and had the One Ring come into Saruman's possesion, Sauron would have had much to fear of Orthanc. 

As for "bending his will" and "blasting ... to smithereens". I hope you are exaggerating -- I may be wrong but I don't believe the powers of anyone in ME extended to that extreme.

This leads me to ask a new question though (and I'll start a new topic as it is well off THIS topic): When Pippin looked into the Palantir and said "It is not for you, I will send for it" (no book to refernce, sorry ) Would a Nazgul have been able to take Pippin from Saruman or "Was Saruman really under Sauron's control to that extent?"


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## Grond (Nov 14, 2001)

Gosh Pont! Can't quite agree with you. Saruman was a Maia as was Sauron and would only have been slightly less powerful than Sauron. If he was as powerful as you make out.... why didn't he just blow Aragorn up when they confronted one another via the palantar before Aragorn walked the Paths of the Dead? Why didn't he just beam Pippin up to Barad-dur when Pippin peered into the palantar? Surely he didn't need to send a Nazgul to pick him up. The fact is.... Sauron was far from full power. He still didn't have his ring which held much of his power and what power he did have was being used to 1) control the Nazgul, 2) re-establish the power of Barad-dur, 3)maintain control over his minions, 4) keep Denethor misled about what he was actually seeing using the palantar of Minis Tirith. These are just a few things that were sapping his power. I also think that Saruman led Sauron to believe that he was in collusion with him while all the while planning on betraying Sauron and finding and claiming the ring for himself. 

Just my thoughts.


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## Lantarion (Nov 15, 2001)

Hmm, yes I see now. I have just been under the impression that Saruman was not very powerful, as he does not excercise his power anywhere in the story, as far as I remember. All of the traps that set the Ents on fire were purely mechanical, and if he really was very powerful, why did he have to use machines to do the jobs for him? The only form of 'magic' that Saruman demonstrates is his voice. In fact, Tolkien doesn't tell much about the magical powers of the Istari, or any of the Maiar. I had just gathered from the book that Saruman was not very powerful, and had to resort to machines. And while Sauron was doing all of the things you listed, what was Saruman doing? Controlling the minds of gullible orcs and men and half-orcs with the power of his voice, and talking those same creatures to work the machinery beneath Orthanc. Oh, and keeping Wormtongue as his personal slave, under the threat of fire, or of being sent to Mordor. Grima knew that Saruman had some kind of ties with Sauron, but he was too afraid of him to do anything about it.
And Sauron was also searching for the Ring, whilst doing all of the other things. If he had seen it, he would have obviously sent the Nazgul (sorry, no accents, I know) to retrieve it. And controlling about a million (only a bit of exaggeration) orcs and men all around Middle-earth could not have been a small feat. Remember that Sauron was pretty battered up during the war with the Numenorians, or sometime (I'm a bit behind in Silmarillion-lore), and before that he was extremely powerful. I think that at the height of his power Sauron was more powerful than Saruman. That's all. 

And yes, Scooter, I was exaggerating. I am sorry if I gave you a false interpretation of my views. *bows low*


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## Grond (Nov 15, 2001)

I do absolutely agree with you Pont. Sauron was by far the more powerful entity; however, My whole point is to warn people not to underestimate Saruman, for he was indeed very powerful too. You said it yourself, he had his voice. His voice was what he used to form and lead one of the largest armies in the world at that time. Remember he had hoards of orcs and all of the Dunlanders (spelling) under his control. He far outnumbered the Riders of Rohan and was kicking their butt to a great degree before Gandalf restored King Theoden to health and got him out of Grima's control. Rohan would still not likely survived but for the Ents uprising. 

Saruman was not known for having magical powers, his power was in his ability to control others, using his silver tongue to convince them that they were ignorant and that he was wise and noble and far superior to them. That is, indeed, a great power and one that allowed Saruman to lead the White Council for a long period of time.


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## Lantarion (Nov 16, 2001)

Yes indeed. And I think that Saruman and his 'voice' might be a (not-so-) subtle metaphor to advertisement-companies and propaganda agencies during the first World War, where Tolkien fought in the trenches. Their almost paralyzing and mind-penetrative slogans have, or are designed to have, the same kind of effect on people that Saruman had on his minions. Saruman also grew greedy and lusted after power, as most if not all product-selling companies w/ their copywriters and advertisement officials also are.


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## Greymantle (Nov 16, 2001)

TOLKIEN DID NOT WRITE ALLEGORY.

Sorry. I'm a freak, I know.


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## Scooter (Nov 16, 2001)

An interesting remark, Greymantle -- I know a lot of people have tried to indicate that LotR was "really" about WW2 or the Bible etc etc etc. and I do believe that they're incorrect -- Tolkien was just telling a story about Middle-Earth. BUT, the events and beliefs of Tolkien's life cannot be discarded when analyzing his work and his craft. 

Knowing that Tolkien was in WW1 and received propaganda can lead the reader to infer that Tolkien was aware of how people can be persuaded and the power of that form of persuasion and that it may have influenced his story telling. 

I think the overt impact of WW1 propaganda on his works could be easily argued against, but do not discount the technique.


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## Grond (Nov 16, 2001)

Scooter... I can't help but agree with you. While I absolutely accept the proposition that Tolkien did not write allegory (I actually wrote a detailed research paper on the WWII, A-Bomb supposition in college in 1973), I can't help but believe that his experiences in both WWI and WWII had a great impact on his view of the world. While he wasn't making direct references to worldly events, the tenor, tone and characterization of TLOTR is sufficiently different from that of The Hobbit to justify our opinion. (That doesn't make our opinions right..... but, boy, I love to stir things up.)


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## Greymantle (Nov 16, 2001)

Well, certainly different aspects of his life totally influenced an affected his writing. I would maintain, however, that no part of his works was intentional metaphor to any specific real-life situation (i.e. allegory). Tolkien said himself that while none of his works were allegorical, they could all have applicability-- so on that point I would agree with you.


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## gil-estel (Nov 17, 2001)

Saruman was the *head Honcho * when it came to the Istari. He trapped gandalf for a start. Also Gandalf himself says that he (Saruman) would have the power to resist Sauron whilst in Orthanc. He was also called Curinir(or along those lines)a maiar of Aule-thats were his power lay-in his devices-same as Sauron. He only lost much when Gandalf destroyed his Staff, so altho he wasn't as powerful as Sauron, he could have put up a fight-he was the white remember


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## lestatdelion. (Nov 20, 2001)

Hi friends.
I think that the Two Towers are Minas Tirith for sure, and the other one is...I'm undecided.
I'm undecided between Minas Morgul ande Barad-Dur.
I'm so sure about the Minas Tirith because in the book a great part take place there, moreover Minas Tirith represent the symbol of Well.
In fact is the only Tower of middle Earth that represent the possible symbol of Well-if we exclude Edoras, that is no a Tower, naturally, but a Palace.
But there are many Towers Symbol of Evil in the book.
I don't know surely what is the right one.
And what do you think about my own answer?
Hi, dear Tolkien works lovers.
IMPORTANT
P.S.My real nickname is Legolas Greenleaf, not lestatdelion.
Hi again friends.


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## lestatdelion. (Nov 20, 2001)

I absolutely agree with Greymantle:
Tolkien didn't write allegory.


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## Beorn (Nov 20, 2001)

Welcome lest...**shoots a glance around the forum...and everyone notices a corny joke coming on** Let me welcome you lest someone else does...That was horrible...I know...Anyway, you recieve the word


> One


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## Beorn (Dec 17, 2001)

Well, I'm not sure if someone posted this already on this thread but...In the back of my OLD OLD OLD FotR, there reads:

Here ends the first part of the History of the War of the Ring. The second part is called The Two Towers, since the events recounted in it are dominated by Orthanc, the citadel of Saruman, and the fortress of Minas Morgul that guards the secred entrance to Mordor. . . 

I'll check the thread later on...I'm in a rush...if it is posted, I'll delete this...


EDIT: Someone had posted this, but debate still continued...


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## Grond (Dec 17, 2001)

Ahhhhhhhhhhh.... Good ole Mike B. I'd finally fully convinced myself that it was Orthanc and the Barad-dur and he blows a cannon size whole in the lot. Drats......

But all in all, I'd rather know the truth. Thanks be to thee... Mike B!! 
*Grond applauds loudly from the top of Minas Morgul*


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## Beorn (Dec 17, 2001)

I just editted it, so look again Grond...Gil-estel was the first, but I wrote it out


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## Wesley_Skiddles (Dec 18, 2001)

*I am glad you folks*

got this straightened out, because I was thinking the two towers were Andre the Giant and Big Show from the WWF. Wesley.


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## gil-estel (Dec 18, 2001)

After all this time is THAT what he meant-how could i have missed it


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## Rangerdave (Apr 5, 2002)

*The Two Towers?*

Help. I have been wondering about the title "The Two Towers" since I first read the work way back in the early seventies.

Which of the three principal towers does the title allude? My personal theory is that the title corresponds with the Towers of Oppisition. Namely Orthanc and Barad Dur. But they could just as easily denote any of the possible combinations. But having it mean Orthanc and Minas Tirith (sp) or Minas Tirith and Barad Dur makes just as much sense (albeit less romantic). 

What are your opinions?
thanks
RD


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## Eonwe (Apr 5, 2002)

I can't find the thread, if I do I will post the link.

I think that logically it is Orthanc and the Tower of Cirith Ungol that are referred to, since these are the two towers in the book where all the action takes place. But of course (Poupon) it could be Orthanc and Barad-dur, etc.


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## Greenwood (Apr 5, 2002)

Tolkien never liked the title and had a hard time himself deciding which two towers were referred to. In his letters (letter 140 to his publisher, August 17, 1953) he says it "can be left ambiguous - it might refer to Isengard and Barad-dur, or to Minas Tirith and B[arad-dur]; or Isengard and Cirith Ungol." But in a later letter to his publisher (letter 143, Jan. 22, 1954) he says: "I am not at all happy about the title 'the Two Towers'. It must if there is any real reference in it to Vol II refer to Orthanc and the Tower of Cirith Ungol. But since there is so much made of the basic opposition of the Dark Tower and Minas Tirith, that seems very misleading."


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## Beorn (Apr 6, 2002)

Perhaps you should check out:

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2787&highlight=orthanc+towers


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## Niniel (Apr 6, 2002)

I noticed there was a poll already about this, but I wanted to ask a question that has bothered me quite some time: Just which towers are the Tow Towers? I thought they were Orthanc and Minas Tirith, but I also read that it wasn't completely clear which they were. I suppose they also might be Orthanc and the one in which Frodo is captured by the Orcs (is that Minas Morgul?), because they are the two towers that are actually in the book.
But the TTT trailer starts with: 'There is an alliance now between the Two Towers, Orthanc and Barad-Dur!' I suppose they put that in to make it clear to everyone else who was wondering what the two towers were, but I'm still not sure if they're right about this. Does anyone now if Tolkien himself has ever cleared this up?


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## Úlairi (Apr 6, 2002)

Niniel, I have always thought of the 'Two Towers' as the ones that Gil-galad built for Elendil and his sons, Isildur and Anarion. Minas Anor, becoming Minas Tirith, and Minas Ithil which becomes Minas Morgul. 

P.S. That's 400!


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## Tar-Palantir (Apr 6, 2002)

At the end of FoTR (the book), it says: "Here ends the first part of the War of the Ring. The second part is called the Two Towers, since the events recounted in it are dominated by Orthanc, the citidel of Saruman, and the fortress of Minas Morgul that guards the secret entrance to Mordor."

Now it could well be that this quote was generated by the publisher and not Tolkien (that it my belief). This was debated on a thread a while back and, if memory serves, someone quoted Tolkien in Letters as saying it should have referred to Orthanc and Cirith Ungol (I may be wrong on this and will glady accept a correction - my recall ain't what it used to be). 

I originally thought Cirith Ungol would have been correct but, after thinking about it, maybe Minas Morgul makes more sense. Certainly many more chapters were directly affected by the Witch King's citadel if you include the Faramir episodes.

As for the movie, I guess PJ is trying to simplify things.


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## Tar-Palantir (Apr 6, 2002)

Ok, scroll around til you find Rangerdave's thread polling about the Two Towers. The letter I referred to is there....and so is your answer


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## Greenwood (Apr 6, 2002)

I had posted it on RangerDave's poll thread, but here it is again.

Tolkien never liked the title and had a hard time himself deciding which two towers were referred to. In his letters (letter 140 to his publisher, August 17, 1953) he says it "can be left ambiguous - it might refer to Isengard and Barad-dur, or to Minas Tirith and B[arad-dur]; or Isengard and Cirith Ungol." But in a later letter to his publisher (letter 143, Jan. 22, 1954) he says: "I am not at all happy about the title 'the Two Towers'. It must if there is any real reference in it to Vol II refer to Orthanc and the Tower of Cirith Ungol. But since there is so much made of the basic opposition of the Dark Tower and Minas Tirith, that seems very misleading."

So the answer is Orthanc and Cirith Ungol ..... maybe.


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## Tao (Apr 6, 2002)

I always thought it was referring to either Barud-Dur and Isengard or Barud-Dur and Minas Tirith...thanks for the note though, Greenwood. It clears a lot of things up for me.


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## Lantarion (Apr 6, 2002)

It would make sense both ways.
Isengard and Barad-dûr were the two main outposts of the 'evil' powers, Sauron and Saruman.
Barad-dûr and Minas Tirith, on the other hand, were the two main embattled powers in the WR. 

I don't really know what to think. But either one suits me fine.


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## Anamatar IV (Apr 6, 2002)

i actually think its barad dur and minas morgul. the 2 towe rs of the dark land.


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## HLGStrider (Apr 6, 2002)

I really don't know. I've been wondering and wondering and wondering... 

I think it's more romantic for it to be Minas Tirith and Barad Dur, because it's like saying Good vs. Evil... It makes more sense for it to be Orthanc and Minas Morgul, where the watchers are...


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## Sam_Gamgee (Apr 6, 2002)

I would guess cirth ungol and minas tirith even though minas tirth is not really really active till TROTK but weren't they the two towers of gondor until cirth ugol fell and got its new name (i dont remeber the original name of cirith ungol)


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## Sam_Gamgee (Apr 6, 2002)

i mean minas tirith and minas morgul not cirth ungol sorry im lending out my book and i can't check myself for mistakes


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## Anamatar IV (Apr 6, 2002)

doesnt ne1 agree that its minas morgul and barad-dur. Minas Tirith isnt talked about at all in the book. So that eliminates that. Even though i beleive its barad-dur adn minas morgul it makes more sense to be orthance and minas morgul,


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## Dhôn-Buri-Dhôn (Apr 6, 2002)

It was also pointed out that Tolkien did not approve of the 3-volume publication format. He wanted a six-volume format; he had individual titles for each of the six "books".

So it's hardly fair to ask what two towers were intended, since he didn't even want "The Two Towers" to be published in its present form at all.

That's why I say the two towers are Orthanc, Minas Tirith, Minas Morgul, Cirith Ungol, and Barad-dur...


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## Úlairi (Apr 6, 2002)

Perhaps someone could actually find some more evidence somewhere to really tell us what the Two Towers were?


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## Greenwood (Apr 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *Perhaps someone could actually find some more evidence somewhere to really tell us what the Two Towers were? *



I don't see how you are going to come up with any evidence more definitive that Tolkien's own view in his letters.


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## Úlairi (Apr 6, 2002)

Perhaps not. I was hopeful that there may be another 'letter' concerning the subject or if JRRT commented it anywhere else in his writings but I suppose not.


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## Beleg Strongbow (Apr 6, 2002)

My book has pics of both topwers and they say minas morgul (white tower of the moon) and orthanc (black)
with the white hand and eye of sauron
it represents the communication and important event witnessed and instigated between those 2 allys part enemies


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## Úlairi (Apr 6, 2002)

Thanks Beleg, that's very helpful. So we have more than one opinion here. It could be:

O=Orthanc
MT=Minas Tirith
MM=Minas Morgul
BD=Barad-dur

1)O & BD
2)O & MT
3)MT & MM
4)MT & BD

There is a possiblity of MM and BD but I doubt it.


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## Greenwood (Apr 7, 2002)

Ulairi

You left out Cirith Ungol.

Orthanc and Cirith Ungol seems to be the pairing most favored by Tolkien himself.


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## Úlairi (Apr 7, 2002)

Thankyou Greenwood, but I left out Cirith Ungol because I cannot see the actual importance of Cirith Ungol in this matter. It was only one of Sauron's many towers. Why on earth should it be given recognition? Because it was mentioned in TTT and RotK? I think not.


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## Niniel (Apr 7, 2002)

Well, because Orthanc and Cirith Ungol are the two towers that are most important in the second book (Minas Tirith is more important in the third).
Thanx everyone for your comments, I knew it wasn't that as easy as the filmmakers want us to believe!


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## Hirila (Apr 7, 2002)

If the third book would have been called "The Two Towers" I would have said that the towers are Minas Morgul and Minas Tirith, the good tower and the bad one. 

But as the second book is called TTT I agree that the towers referred are Orthanc and Cirith Ungol. These are the two real bad towers that have a part in the book. What happens at Minas Morgul? Nothing, Frodo, Sam and Gollum only see the Ringwraiths coming out. So it can`t be that. And Minas Tirith has an importance only in the end when Gandalf goes there.

BTW, isn`t it so that the tower is called Orthanc only after Saruman`s name he has as a Maia? That Isengard is the original name, named after the river?


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## Greenwood (Apr 7, 2002)

> BTW, isn`t it so that the tower is called Orthanc only after Saruman`s name he has as a Maia? That Isengard is the original name, named after the river?



Hirila

I believe Orthanc is the name of the actual tower and that Isengard is the whole area with its surrounding walls and gates, etc. But I could be wrong. I will check my books.


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## Anamatar IV (Apr 7, 2002)

i consider it barad-dur and minas morgul. but think bout the book for a minute. It would make more sense for orthanc and minas morgul.


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## Úlairi (Apr 8, 2002)

No Greenwood, you are correct in saying so. Orthanc was the name of the tower, Isengard was the area it was in and Isen is the name of the river running past it.


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## Lantarion (Apr 8, 2002)

And what is the name of the tower of Cirith Ungol? Because the word '_cirith_' basically means 'gap' or 'cleft'. 
And a friend of mine thinks Frodo was taken captive to Minas Morgul, not Cirith Ungol. So which exactly is it? I haven't read the LotR in months!


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## Greenwood (Apr 8, 2002)

It is never given any name that I am aware of other than the Tower of Cirith Ungol. This is indeed where Frodo was taken prisoner, not Minas Morgul which was once the sister city to Minas Tirith.


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## Niniel (Apr 9, 2002)

I don't konw of any other name for that tower either. The pass over the mountains is called Cirith Ungol (Pass of the Spider), and Shelob's lair itself is called Barad Ungol (something like 'Stronghold of the Spider', as in Barad-Dûr). But the tower is just called teh Tower of Cirith Ungol. I suppose it was originally not important enough to have a name of its own; Suaron would have a lot of towers guarding Mordor.


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## Úlairi (Apr 9, 2002)

There is absolutely no debate here, there is no other name for the tower of Cirith Ungol, again I ask of the relevance that Cirith Ungol plays which is not as important as either Barad-dur, Orthanc or Minas Tirith.


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## Niniel (Apr 9, 2002)

It is of course not as important in a political/military sense as are Minas Tirith and Barad-Dûr, but in the story the tower of Cirith Ungol is very important for the character development of Frodo and Sam. I think for Tolkien the importance of the towers in the story is more important than the underlying importace of the towers in a 'neutral' sense. Of course Minas Tirith ans Barad-Dûr are in the overall histroy of Middle-Earth more important than Suaron's little watch-tower at Cirith Ungol, but for Frodo this tower means a lot more than Barad-Dûr which he sees only form afar, or Minas Tirith which he sees only after his Quest. And the only two towers that are really featured in the book are these two, the others appear only in RoTK.


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## Úlairi (Apr 9, 2002)

Niniel, I'll put this one to you. Would you name your book after the most important factors of your book, or would you name it after a mere and insignificant part of it which is only important to one of your main characters?


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## Greenwood (Apr 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *Thankyou Greenwood, but I left out Cirith Ungol because I cannot see the actual importance of Cirith Ungol in this matter. It was only one of Sauron's many towers. Why on earth should it be given recognition? Because it was mentioned in TTT and RotK? I think not. *
> 
> ....
> ...



Ulairi

You may not like Cirith Ungol being one of The Two Towers, but you cannot ignore the author's own views on the matter. Tolkien did not like the title and he thought it misleading, but he also said: "It must if there is any real reference in it to Vol II refer to Orthanc and the Tower of Cirith Ungol." Cirith Ungol cannot be dismissed based on a personal view. The author's view trumps all others.


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## Lantarion (Apr 9, 2002)

But why would Sauron (or the Witch-king, whichever) build two huge statues, filled with his malice to keep guard on such a small 'fort'? The Tower of Cirith Ungol did not indeed have almost any importance as a military base in the LotR, so why would two monsterous statue-guards be placed in a needless fortress?
And btw Niniel, '_barad_' is Sindarin for 'tower', not 'stronghold'.


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## Anamatar IV (Apr 9, 2002)

I HAVE AN ANSWER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In the movie (thnx trailor) for TTT Gandalf says "there is a union between the two towers Orthanc and Barad-DUr.


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## Úlairi (Apr 9, 2002)

Thankyou amerxtremist. Orthanc and Barad-dur IMO sound more likely. I still cannot see why Tolkien would name his book after such an insignificant factor in the story!


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## pohuist (Apr 11, 2002)

Oh, please!! I can't believe you are using a movie as a source of knowledge about the book. Barad Dur and Minas Tirith are only mentioned slightly in the TT. One must be Orthanc, the other is either CU or MM. IMHO Tolkien's view should trump all others.


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## Anamatar IV (Apr 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by pohuist _
> *Oh, please!! I can't believe you are using a movie as a source of knowledge about the book. Barad Dur and Minas Tirith are only mentioned slightly in the TT. One must be Orthanc, the other is either CU or MM. IMHO Tolkien's view should trump all others. *


CU and MM aer the same tower. To direct a movie about such a complicated choice of towers must mean he has some knowledge of which.


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## Greenwood (Apr 11, 2002)

> CU and MM aer the same tower. To direct a movie about such a complicated choice of towers must mean he has some knowledge of which.



Cirith Ungol and Minas Morgul are positively *not* the same tower. 

Pohuist is absolutely right. Tolkien's view does trump anyone elses. While he did not like the title The Two Towers, he clearly states that most logically the towers referred to are Orthanc and Cirith Ungol.


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## pohuist (Apr 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by amerxtremist _
> *
> To direct a movie about such a complicated choice of towers must mean he has some knowledge of which. *



Having a knowledge doesn't equal carefully representing it. The movie bears only a slight resemblance to the book.


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## Turgon (Apr 11, 2002)

I must agree with pohuist and Greenwood the Great... not that I've got anything against the film, but to paraphrase one of the great quotes in English Literature...
'Very nice Mr. Jackson, but it isn't Tolkien...'


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## Anamatar IV (Apr 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Greenwood _
> *
> 
> Cirith Ungol and Minas Morgul are positively not the same tower.
> ...



Cirith ungol is that pasaage way that leads to the tower ofthe moon (aka minas morgul)


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## pohuist (Apr 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by amerxtremist _
> *
> 
> Cirith ungol is that pasaage way that leads to the tower ofthe moon (aka minas morgul) *



The passage way was in the mountain, going all the way up.
On the TOP of that passage there was the TOWER of Cirith Ungol (with Silent Watchers, etc.); the BOTTOM of that passage was in Morgul Vale near Minis Morgul. Its all there, in the book...


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## Beleg Strongbow (Apr 11, 2002)

Trust me the 2 towers are minas morgul and orthanc. It represents the link they had together and it says so on my book.


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## Greenwood (Apr 11, 2002)

> _Quote by pohuist_
> On the TOP of that passage there was the TOWER of Cirith Ungol (with Silent Watchers, etc.); the BOTTOM of that passage was in Morgul Vale near Minis Morgul. Its all there, in the book...



pohuist is correct; there are two different towers. The first chapter of Book VI in The Return of the King is titled "The Tower of Cirith Ungol." The two groups of orcs who fight over Frodo's mithril shirt are from the two different towers. Gorbag and his "lads" are from Minas Morgul and Shagrat is the captain of the tower of Cirith Ungol. The volume Sauron Defeated of HoME even has a sketch of the Tower of Cirith Ungol done by Tolkien.



> _Quote by Beleg Strogbow_
> Trust me the 2 towers are minas morgul and orthanc. It represents the link they had together and it says so on my book.



I know it says that in earlier editions. I have a first edition and it says "Here ends the first part of the War of the Ring. The second part is called the Two Towers, since the events recounted in it are dominated by Orthanc, the citadel of Saruman, and the fortress of Minas Morgul that guards the secret entrance to Mordor." as Tar-Palantir posted on the first page of this thread, but I agree with Tar-Palantir that this was probably written by the publisher, not by Tolkien. There are a couple of reasons to think this. 1) Minas Morgul does not "guard the secret entrance to Mordor". Minas Morgul is in the Morgul Vale outside Mordor and was once Isildur's city of Minas Ithil, sister city to Minas Anor, which was later renamed Minas Tirith. The "secret entrance to Mordor" is the pass of Cirith Ungol and the Tower of Cirith Ungol is at the top of this pass and "guards" the entrance in to Mordor. 2) As I posted earlier, Tolkien himself addressed the issue of which were the two towers referred to in the title. He says in his letters (letter 140 to his publisher, August 17, 1953) he says it "can be left ambiguous - it might refer to Isengard and Barad-dur, or to Minas Tirith and B[arad-dur]; or Isengard and Cirith Ungol." But in a later letter to his publisher (letter 143, Jan. 22, 1954) he says: "I am not at all happy about the title 'the Two Towers'. It must if there is any real reference in it to Vol II refer to Orthanc and the Tower of Cirith Ungol. But since there is so much made of the basic opposition of the Dark Tower and Minas Tirith, that seems very misleading." 

So Tolkien comes down fairly strongly on the title referring to Orthanc and the Tower of Cirith Ungol. One thing to note is that Tolkien never even mentions Minas Morgul as being one of the possible towers. This is another reason why I feel the statement at the end of FOTR in early editions must have been an error perpetrated by the publisher. This statement is dropped, I believe, in the second edition.


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## Beleg Strongbow (Apr 12, 2002)

Yes u could be right. I don't know why Tolkiern didn't like the name 2 towers i think it is a great title.


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## Úlairi (Apr 12, 2002)

Greenwood, I just read the letter myself, it is rather fascinating that Tolkien believed that it was his publisher, darn people. The Tower of Cirith Ungol and Isengard are 'The Two Towers' that Tolkien 'wanted' to refer to and so did in the LoJRRT. Hush everyone, the great Ulairi and Greenwood have spoken. Hey Greenwood! Check out the Saruman's Ring thread!


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## Anamatar IV (Apr 12, 2002)

theres the tower of the moon and the tower of...
(MM) (cu)


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## pohuist (Apr 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by amerxtremist _
> *theres the tower of the moon and the tower of...
> (MM) (cu) *



Incorrect. The tower of the Moon is in fact Minas Morgul also known as Minas Ithil. In addition, there is also a tower of Cirith Ungol, that has no other name, but has a lot of significance, because, as correctly pointed out by Greenwood, its the only tower guarging the secret etrance to Mordor from the West. (MM is, while close, a little bit to the side and Shelob, as we learned, is not invincible). Like I said, its all in the book.


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## Greenwood (Apr 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by amerxtremist _
> *theres the tower of the moon and the tower of...
> (MM) (cu) *



Actually, there is:

Tower of the Sun = Minas Anor = Minas Tirith
Tower of the Moon = Minas Ithil = Minas Morgul
Tower of Cirith Ungol = Tower of Cirith Ungol (This one only ever had one name and it is a different place than the other two.)


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## Úlairi (Apr 12, 2002)

And Orthanc is the tower of Isengard.


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## pohuist (Apr 16, 2002)

And Barad Dur, the Tower of Dark Lord.

TTT does indeed seem a bad name for a novel, when any of the 5 could be one of the two in the name. (and that's not counting the two towers of the teeth, that are also mentioned there).


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## Úlairi (Apr 16, 2002)

Yes, that too.


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## Grond (Apr 16, 2002)

From my earliest reading of the work in 1973, I assumed (wrongly) that the author was referring to Orthanc and Barad-dur. The novel seemed to be about the partnership between the two and I felt it 'fit'. 

When I finally read the Letters of JRRT and they make it clear that the author deemed Orthanc and Cirith Ungol to be the two to which the story referred. This is very logical if one thinks about it. Book 3 details the Broken Fellowship pursuing the Uruk-hai of Orthanc and ultimately the defeat of Saruman and the fall of Orthanc to the Ents. Thus Book 3 could have easily been entitled "The Fall of Orthanc". 

Book 4 details Frodo and Samwise's passage along the edge of Mordor from the Dead Marshes to the Morannon to their final ascent into the mountains beyond Minas Morgul which ultimately ended with Frodo's capture in the Tower of Cirith Ungol. Thus Book 4 could have easily been entitled "Trapped in the Tower of Cirith Ungol". Looking at it this way makes it very easy for me to understand how the author decided upon which two towers to focus.

As an aside, I would like to commend every single participant in this thread on a very intriguing, entertaining and civil discussion and debate. Not once have I seen anyone degrading or attacking anyone else. Even when people have disagreed, they have presented their case and debated their points with dignity and respect. 

*CONGRATULATIONS TO EVERYONE ON THIS THREAD!!!*


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## Aragorn13 (Apr 16, 2002)

I myself always thought that it was Barad Dur and Orthanc.


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## Úlairi (Apr 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Grond _
> *From my earliest reading of the work in 1973, I assumed (wrongly) that the author was referring to Orthanc and Barad-dur. The novel seemed to be about the partnership between the two and I felt it 'fit'.
> 
> When I finally read the Letters of JRRT and they make it clear that the author deemed Orthanc and Cirith Ungol to be the two to which the story referred. This is very logical if one thinks about it. Book 3 details the Broken Fellowship pursuing the Uruk-hai of Orthanc and ultimately the defeat of Saruman and the fall of Orthanc to the Ents. Thus Book 3 could have easily been entitled "The Fall of Orthanc".
> ...



Thankyou Grond. Very well spoken I might add.


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## Elias (Apr 17, 2002)

I'm pretty sure that the two towers are Orthanc and Minas Morgul. I've read about that somewhere, but I can't remember where.


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## Úlairi (Apr 17, 2002)

It has been said by Tolkien himself in one of his letters that the Two Towers are Cirith Ungol and Orthanc, there are no other options.


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## Arda's Bane (Jun 13, 2002)

I always thought that the two towers represented one in mordor and the other in orthanc and their relationship (saurons and saruman). I am wrong once more


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## Úlairi (Jun 14, 2002)

Cirith Ungol and Orthanc!!! There are no other options! How many times do I have to stress this?


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## Niniel (Jun 14, 2002)

Hey, calm down!  She (he?) was just pointing out how her (his?) ideas were changed because of reading something on this site, which is a good thing, right? Making you think about what you read. And besides, I remember that you at first were not convinced it was CU and Orthanc.


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## Cian (Jun 14, 2002)

In a letter dated Jan. 1954 Tolkien stated _Orthanc_ and _Cirith Ungol_ ...

... however Tolkien's own final drawing for the book cover of The Two Towers shows _Orthanc_ and _Minas Morgul_

_"JRRT Artist & Illustrator"_ states that in Jan. 1954 Tolkien was asked to suggest a dust jacket design ... he replied late in February that he was "without both time and inspiration", but "before another month had passed" he produced "notions" for FotR and TTT. As said however, Tolkien's "final rendering" (quoting "JRRT A&I") shows _Orthanc_ and _Minas Morgul_ (there are now copies of TTT with this cover).

For interest alone, the "blurb" in my FotR has _Orthanc_ and _Minas Morgul_ -- which agrees, in any event, with JRRTs cover not the Letter. 

Just a little more info to this. Cheers


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## Úlairi (Jun 15, 2002)

And there you have it, straight from the horses mouth. A smart horse I might add.


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## Theoden (Jun 16, 2002)

I think it is Minas Tirith and Baradur... but that is only my thought on it. I haven't really study up on the subject much

-me


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## Cian (Jun 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Theoden _
> I think it is Minas Tirith and Baradur... but that is only my thought on it. I haven't really study up on the subject much



Minas Tirith and Barad-dûr seemingly appear in one of Tolkien's sketches.



> "Roughly sketched at left and right are flying Nazgûl, above renderings of, probably Barad-dûr and Minas Tirith." JRRT A & I



Mount Doom appears center of the sketch. The idea "quickly developed" into a "more carefully balanced and less cluttered design", newly featuring the towers of Minas Morgul and Orthanc.

We can see Tolkien never had any doubts about the title in any case


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## Ithrynluin (Jun 17, 2002)

It's Orthanc and Cirith Ungol people!!! 

Orthanc is pretty obvious, as the action revolves solely around it in book 3. There is some confusion about the second tower on account of both Minas Morgul and Cirith Ungol being mentioned (and much more than that of course). But the story ends with Cirith Ungol and all our hopes are turned towards it.

(Hmm,I guess we could allow for the possibility of Orthanc and Minas Morgul )


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## Denethor (Jun 25, 2002)

*the two towers*

the "two towers" has two chapters . The first one talks about the search of meriadoc and peregrin , and the fight against orthanc .
The second one talks about the quest of Frodo and Sam in Mordor .
So i think the two towers are barad dur and orthanc , Instead barad dur never is visited by the hobbitts (anyway , the titles of tolkien are confusing , who would think that the "return of the king" will reffer to the return of Aragorn as the king of Gondor??)


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## DGoeij (Jun 25, 2002)

More precise, TTT is made up of two books, as written by professor Tolkien himself. One concering the events in Rohan and one concerning Sam and Frodo. Later on, publishers made a trilogy out of the story, that was originally six books. If you take the two books into account, Orthanc and Cirith Ungol are the dominating structures in those books, and most likely the Two Towers from the title. But with all these towers around, a different view isn't that odd. 
However, personally I take the letter by the author himself as the most important source.


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## Cian (Jun 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by DGoeij _
> However, personally I take the letter by the author himself as the most important source.



The drawing is by the author himself too (said the freelance illustrator)


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## DGoeij (Jun 25, 2002)

Quit it! I had made up my mind, you know!
I know what to do! I'll draw two new towers on the all the maps of ME I have and announce them the Two Towers.

Ok. calming down again. Thanks for the side note Cian. You're always capable to come up with new and important info aren't you?
Judging from what I have read in his various letters and in the UT, professor Tolkien had a lot of doubts about his own work now and then, anxious as he was to make it as real and clear as possible.
Personally I like the idea of Orthanc and Cirith Ungol better, because there events that really matter take place in TTT, but who am I to be sure of it?


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## HelplessModAddi (Jun 25, 2002)

I always thought that The Two Towers refers to Narchost and Carchost, the two Towers of the Teeth.


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## pohuist (Jun 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by DGoeij _
> *More precise, TTT is made up of two books, as written by professor Tolkien himself. One concering the events in Rohan and one concerning Sam and Frodo. Later on, publishers made a trilogy out of the story, that was originally six books. *



More precise, the story was originally ONE book made into a trilogy by the publisher convinced that the one book will never sell. The second book of thus made trilogy is called TTT. It has 2 Parts, each having a few Chapters.

The Towers of the Teeth are only mentioned once or twice in TTT and of the 7 towers in the story are the least important to it.


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## Cian (Jun 26, 2002)

LOL DGoeij!

I just noted that a couple folks are posting (elsewhere) that the "blurb" in a Del Ray edition (only one of the posters mentioned Del Ray so far) has Orthanc and Barad-dûr rather!

That should add to the fun, no matter what the story is with that (?) -- that full story still unknown to me as of now. Cheers


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## DGoeij (Jun 27, 2002)

*grinning*
It happens. Even you cannot know it all. 

Toedels!


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## Cian (Jun 27, 2002)

_"*grinning* It happens. Even you cannot know it all."_

:grins too: and I certainly don't! 

And as to the Del Ray edition specifically, it looks like I'm not going to glean anymore "over there" either ~ the person that initially posted that info has seemingly "gone away" in silence ... and my wife won't let me buy any more LOTR editions (for a while) to check it out 

edit: another person who also had posted an edition with blurb Orthanc and Barad-dûr has now explained that he goofed! maybe I shoulda never mentioned it ~ LoL! 

Oh well it's a blurb. Someone added that maybe it was "PJ inspired" but who knows. Cheers


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## Arahiriel (Jul 12, 2002)

One of them is Orthanc. The other could be Minis Tirith or Minas Morgul.


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## LadyGaladriel (Jul 12, 2002)

In my book Tolkien Clearly states that the Two towers is of that name because its mainly about MINAS MORGUL AND ORTHANIC


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## Rúmil (Jul 13, 2002)

If you read what is above, you will find you possess an edition containing an error in the publisher's agrument at the end of Fotr for the next book. The opinion of old JRRT doesn't really matter, but out of pity we might pretend to give the old geezer some attention


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## LadyGaladriel (Jul 13, 2002)

I think I have the 4th Edition


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## Rúmil (Jul 13, 2002)

Yes, that would be it: the passage you quote was hastily written at the end of vol1, it is not canonical at all, even erronious. The best edition, IMO, is the HarperCollins 1 vol edition, 1991 (some small corrections from the 1968) . It is also good to have the 1st edtion of 1954, for references in Tolkien's letters, for example.

ps: 100th post BTW


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## Arahiriel (Jul 15, 2002)

If you see a trailer for TTT, they suggest in there that TTT are Barad-dur and Orthanc.


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## Rúmil (Jul 16, 2002)

Well as we all know the Film is not much of a reference


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## Cian (Jul 16, 2002)

Except for Istari breakdancing moves


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## pohuist (Jul 19, 2002)

I really don't get why do you guys are beating the dead horse. It was proven long before on this thread that it is Orthanc and Cirith Ungol.

The breakdance post is awesome, though


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## Arahiriel (Jul 19, 2002)

I suppose it really doesn't matter which Towers they are. Whatever they are, they are.


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## Maeglin (Jul 28, 2002)

Its Orthanc and Cirith Ungol, I think thats kind of obvious since they're the only two actually in the story.


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## Grond (Jul 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by pohuist _
> *I really don't get why do you guys are beating the dead horse. It was proven long before on this thread that it is Orthanc and Cirith Ungol.
> 
> The breakdance post is awesome, though *


pohuist, have you read this thread in its entirety? The author has never made a definitive determination as to what two towers the title meant. In the letters of JRRT he states it could be Minis Tirith and Barad-dur, Barad-dur and Orthanc, Orthanc and Minas Morgul.... etc. etc. etc. 

This subject is not a dead horse. It is one of those riddles that each reader gets to answer themselves.


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## Walter (Jul 29, 2002)

nothing entirely new, but my 2cents anyway...


> "The Two Towers" gets as near as possible to finding a title to cover the widely divergent Books 3 and 4; and can be left ambiguous - it might refer to Isengard and Barad-dûr, or to Minas Tirith and B; or Isengard and Cirith Ungol. *) - (Letter #140)
> 
> *) In a subsequent letter to Rayner Unwin (no. 143), Tolkien is more definite that the Two Towers are 'Orthanc and the Tower of Cirith Ungol'. On the other hand, in his original design for the jacket of The Two Towers the Towers are certainly Orthanc and Minas Morgul. Orthanc is shown as a black tower, three-homed (as seen in Pictures no. 27), and with the sign of the White Hand beside it; Minas Morgul is a white tower, with a thin waning moon above it, in reference to its original name. Minas Ithil, the Tower of the Rising Moon (The Fellowship of the Ring p. 257). Between the two towers a Nazgûl flies.


and here is said passage of Letter #143:


> I am not at all happy about the title 'the Two Towers'. It must if there is any real reference in it to Vol II refer to Orthanc and the Tower of Cirith Ungol. But since there is so much made of the basic opposition of the Dark Tower and Minas Tirith, that seems very misleading. - Letter # 143


What gives? ... Scio me nihil scire....


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## Maeglin (Jul 29, 2002)

I know Grond I read that part of the thread, but it only seems logical that it would be Orthanc and Cirith Ungol. It could be the others, but thats just what I think.


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## pohuist (Jul 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Grond
> *
> quote:
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ...




GROND, Contradicting yourself, eh?




> _Originally posted by Grond _
> *From my earliest reading of the work in 1973, I assumed (wrongly) that the author was referring to Orthanc and Barad-dur. The novel seemed to be about the partnership between the two and I felt it 'fit'.
> 
> When I finally read the Letters of JRRT and they make it clear that the author deemed Orthanc and Cirith Ungol to be the two to which the story referred. This is very logical if one thinks about it. Book 3 details the Broken Fellowship pursuing the Uruk-hai of Orthanc and ultimately the defeat of Saruman and the fall of Orthanc to the Ents. Thus Book 3 could have easily been entitled "The Fall of Orthanc".
> ...


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## Grond (Jul 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Glorfindel1187 _
> *I know Grond I read that part of the thread, but it only seems logical that it would be Orthanc and Cirith Ungol. It could be the others, but thats just what I think. *


And to this comment, I totally agree. As I stated long ago, at first I thought it was Orthanc and Barad-dur because of the linkage via the Palantari but linking book three and four makes it clear that it should be Orthanc and Minas Morgul or Cirith Ungol.


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## Grond (Jul 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by pohuist _
> *GROND, Contradicting yourself, eh?*


pohuist, the quote you cited was made before I owned the Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien which showed the author's own dissatisfaction with the title and his confusion on which Two Towers the title referred to. I should have been clearer in my explanations though.


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## pohuist (Jul 29, 2002)

I think that the letter #143, which was written later than letter #140 controls.
JRRT is dissatisfied with the title, but his dissatisfaction is not the topic of this thread. (which are the two towers?), on which JRRT answers if it must be the Two Towers it SHOULD be Orthanc and Cirith Ungol (not a direct quote, emphasis added).


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## Cian (Jul 29, 2002)

By chronology the drawing (_Orthanc_ and _Minas Morgul_) is later than both letters. 
JRRT likely knew he would be 'answering' the question in a sense had the drawing been used as a dust jacket (it has been ultimately used in at least one edition I know of) ... unless there is something "more" (that I'm currently unaware of) that throws doubt on the illustration.

But if chronology rules, the drawing follows the letter, as can be gleaned from JRRT Artist and Illustrator.


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## pohuist (Jul 30, 2002)

I haven't seen the drawing, so I can't either agree or disagree with you (on a subject of it being likely used as a dust cover, and not merely a drawing of Orthanc and MM. I assume you're right about the chronology). But that hasn't come up before on this thread and you have a valid point. Still though, the letter expressely says something while a drawing may not necessarily represent anything besiders just being a drawing. My book, BTW, is a one volume Unwin paperback edition and there is only one tower on the cover. I think its Barad-dur, but I am not sure. Maybe someone can help?


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## Cian (Jul 30, 2002)

There is an edition with Tolkien's drawing of Barad-dûr on it for ROTK, though that doesn't help you 

But yes the drawing showing Orthanc and Minas Morgul was specifically at the request for dust jacket designs, and includes the title. 

~ an earlier sketch had "probably Barad-dûr and Minas Tirith" (quotes from JRRT A&I) ~ then a new sketch with Orthanc and Minas Morgul ~ then a "final rendering" with Orthanc/Minas Morgul seemed to be his "suggestion" here.

Rayner Unwin suggested that the same design (a version of the _Fellowship_ cover) be used on all three covers. Tolkien basically said OK (though that's the short version!) adding that he was only offering suggestions.


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## pohuist (Jul 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Cian _
> *There is an edition with Tolkien's drawing of Barad-dûr on it for ROTK, though that doesn't help you
> 
> ~ an earlier sketch had "probably Barad-dûr and Minas Tirith" (quotes from JRRT A&I) ~ then a new sketch with Orthanc and Minas Morgul ~ then a "final rendering" with Orthanc/Minas Morgul seemed to be his "suggestion" here. *



The book cover was a side question. Thanks.  

As for the rest, sorry, quotes from anyone about Tolkien's intentions and even Tolkien's pictures convince me far less than Tolkien's words. I will stick to my position. And, logically speaking, the TT is mostly about Orthanc and CU, don't you agree?


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## Grond (Jul 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by pohuist _
> *
> 
> The book cover was a side question. Thanks.
> ...


I absolutely agree with your assertion... it just is apparent that the author never conclusively liked the idea of the title and left the choice of which towers it portrayed ambiguous on purpose. 

As I have stated in the past, at first (in 1973) I thought the author was referring to the Tower of Barad-dur and Orthanc for the obvious Palantari connection. It wasn't until several readings later that I realized that Cirith Ungol was a tower. (I know it sounds stupid since Frodo was apparently being held at the top of a tower.) Later, I realized the Minas Morgul was a tower and felt it was likely Orthanc and Minas Morgul. Later, realizing that Frodo was being held in the Tower of Cirith Ungol, logic got the better of me and I realized that the Two Towers were obviously Orthanc and Cirith Ungol. Then I read the Letters and realized that the author was as confused as was I.


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## Cian (Jul 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by pohuist: _As for the rest, sorry, quotes from anyone about Tolkien's intentions and even Tolkien's pictures convince me far less than Tolkien's words. I will stick to my position. And, logically speaking, the TT is mostly about Orthanc and CU, don't you agree?



Words or pictures: you're certainly free to chose your precedence of course. One could also argue that JRRTs thoughts in his letters here represent his musings, but while a book cover would take some doing, and be rather 'public' to boot, he did some more thinking on it ~ not that _I'm_ arguing that  but, in any case, as "chronology" might help decide for some, I looked into it.

As to your question, it depends on how one looks at the significance of the various towers with respect to what the title itself might "represent" (ie what is desired). Tolkien himself seemed to vacillate as we see ... and even the letter you cite follows with: _"But since there is so much made of the basic opposition of the Dark Tower and Minas Tirith, that seems very misleading."_ ~ the early sketch seems to pick up there interestingly.

~ but heck, afterall, a picture might be worth a thousand somethings


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## aragil (Jul 30, 2002)

*Sewing more cornfusion*

It _is_ difficult to say exactly which two towers the book refers to, and this is compounded by the fact that the action was already written by the time Tolkien realized he needed 3 book titles. I could just as easily say that the narrative of the book is about Frodo's attempt to get into Mordor, with the action in Rohan paralleling the way in which Sauron's eye was drawn away from guarding his own realm. One of the pivotal moments of the narrative would then be the point where Sam and Frodo reach the Black Gate and find it closed beyond all hope. Then the two towers might refer to the twin battlements on the Morannon.


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## Maeglin (Jul 31, 2002)

I when I first read it I thought thats what The Tow Towers were referring to, then I thought it was the tower of (was it moon?) where Faramir took Frodo and Sam and Cirith Ungol, but I eventually came to the conclusion that it must be Orthanc and Cirith Ungol.


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## pohuist (Jul 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Glorfindel1187 _
> *I when I first read it I thought thats what The Tow Towers were referring to, then I thought it was the tower of (was it moon?) where Faramir took Frodo and Sam and Cirith Ungol, but I eventually came to the conclusion that it must be Orthanc and Cirith Ungol. *



Faramir did not take Frodo and Sam any tower. He took them to the secret refuge of Gondor warriors in Ithilien (hidden cave under the waterfall). Afterwards, they, on their own, (with Smeagol) went to Morgul Vale. The Tower of the Moon aka Minas Ithil aka Minas Morgul is where the chief Nasgul dwells. Faramir never went there.

Aragil, I think the consensus is that the TT are not the Towers of the Teeth.

Grond and Cian thank you for your comments. Seems the consensus is, that one of the towers is Orthanc. The other is either Barad-dur, or MM, or CU. You managed to convince me that even JRRT wasn't completely sure. So, Grond, I have to contend that the issue wasn't a dead horse, as I asserted earlier, after all. You should thank Cian, though. Needless to say, that I am standing by my opinion (which I believe -- sorry, Cian, to be the opinion of the majority on this thread) that the second of the two is, indeed, CU.


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## aragil (Jul 31, 2002)

pohuist- I agree that the consensus is probably CU and Orthanc. My point was that 'The Two Towers' is an artificial label. The narrative had been written out between 6-11 years before the name 'Two Towers' had ever been contemplated. Since the narrative wasn't written explicitly to relate to 'two towers', it shouldn't surprise us that it is hard apply that label to the narrative. Additionally, it is clear that when Tolkien came up with the title, he had no clear idea which two towers the title referred to. As such, I think it is up to each individual reader to decide for themselves what the title refers to. I think that this is a personal decision (there being no 'higher authority' for comparison), and that the 'consensus' opinion should not keep people from having their own views. Truthfully, the 'Morannon as Two Towers' theory is not what _I believe_, but rather a belief which I think is equally valid to any other theory relating the name to the narrative.


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## Grond (Jul 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by pohuist _
> *...So, Grond, I have to contend that the issue wasn't a dead horse, as I asserted earlier, after all. You should thank Cian, though. Needless to say, that I am standing by my opinion (which I believe -- sorry, Cian, to be the opinion of the majority on this thread) that the second of the two is, indeed, CU. *


Thank you Cian!! (exactly for what I'm not sure.) I still contend that this issue is much as Aragil describes it. While I feel comfortable that the Two Towers equate to Orthanc and Cirith Ungol, I wouldn't argue with anyone who chose any of the other towers spoken of in Books 3 and 4. The only sure thing in this thread is that nothing is sure.


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## Walter (Jul 31, 2002)

Q: So the two towers are Orthanc and Cirith Ungol?
A: Definitive maybe...


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## Cian (Jul 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Grond _
> *Thank you Cian!! (exactly for what I'm not sure.) ... *



LoL 

And no problem Pohuist; heck I may be swayed by my part time profession anyway (freelance Illustrator). :chants: _Minas Morgul, Minas Morgul ..._


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## pohuist (Jul 31, 2002)

Aragil, I agree that the label is artificial, hey JRRT himself wasn't happy about it. (WOW I finally agreed with Aragil on something -- what this world is coming to?!   (still amazed at himself)

Grond, you should thank Cian for bringing up the picture. Before that even your Battling Ram (or was it hammer from hell ) couldn't beat me into submission.  

Cian, you're not only illustrator, seems you are a singer too (otherwise what all this chanting is about?)   

LOL everybody


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## Eol (Aug 5, 2002)

*Towers*

There are a lot of towers mentioned in The Two Towers, but I never realized there was a controversy over which ones were referred to. The two towers of importance are Orthanc and Barad-dur. The big discovery of importance was the communications link between these two towers. The Palantir of Orthanc was a vital source of information and control for Sauron, and the loss of it caused a lot of doubt on his part (and was further exacerbated by Aragorn revealing himself to Sauron through it and showing him Narsil re-forged).

As for the other towers, Minas Tirith and Minas Morgul are mentioned, but in this book no major events take place there. Same with the Towers of the Teeth (Cirith Gorgor) and Cirith Ungol (the latter action takes place at the beginning of ROTK). I agree with Tolkien that it isn't the greatest title, but I am pretty sure these two towers are the most important to the second book.

Eol


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## Grond (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: Towers*



> _Originally posted by Eol _
> *There are a lot of towers mentioned in The Two Towers, but I never realized there was a controversy over which ones were referred to. The two towers of importance are Orthanc and Barad-dur. The big discovery of importance was the communications link between these two towers. The Palantir of Orthanc was a vital source of information and control for Sauron, and the loss of it caused a lot of doubt on his part (and was further exacerbated by Aragorn revealing himself to Sauron through it and showing him Narsil re-forged).
> 
> As for the other towers, Minas Tirith and Minas Morgul are mentioned, but in this book no major events take place there. Same with the Towers of the Teeth (Cirith Gorgor) and Cirith Ungol (the latter action takes place at the beginning of ROTK). I agree with Tolkien that it isn't the greatest title, but I am pretty sure these two towers are the most important to the second book.
> ...


Book Three was largely about the events leading to the downfall of Orthanc. Book Four was largely about Frodo's trip through and subsequent capture in Cirith Ungol. Ungol = spider. That is what most of Book Four was about. I don't agree with your point.


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## Eol (Aug 5, 2002)

*Cirith Ungol*

Weren't the actual events in the Cirith Ungol dealt with in ROTK? The events with Shelob were in the passages leading up to the tower. The events of Frodo's rescue from the orcs by Sam was IN Cirith Ungol. I would check for sure but my book is currently on loan.

Eol


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## Lantarion (Aug 5, 2002)

Hmm, as I recall (but remember I very well could be wrong) it was in TT that Frodo and Sam arrived in Ithilien, stayed there for a day, arrived at Cirith Ungol, and got Frodo poisoned. And I seem to remember that the TT ends with Sam being locked in right behind the Orcs.. Hoom hum..
Welcome to the forum, Eöl!


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## Eol (Aug 5, 2002)

*Locked out*

Exactly, he is locked out of the tower actually. Then ROTK starts with Sam deciding what to do, and then trying to find a way into the tower to rescue Frodo. Nothing really happens IN the tower in TTT. And that is my point, the important business in the book is the Orthanc-Barad-dur action and connection. And the Palantir being the key to the next major step in the action.

Eol

P.S. Thanks for the welcome.


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## pohuist (Aug 5, 2002)

Can't agree with that. TTT ends with Frodo being taken into to the tower [of CU] -- I think it is one of the most important moments in the books. If he was not resqued but taken to Sauron, he would have revealed everything and Sam and the Ring would undoubtely been captured. But don't take my word for that, ask JRRT   (Look for quotes/descriptions of drawings in earlier posts on this thread.


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## Grond (Aug 5, 2002)

Once again I will simply post what the author says on the matter. I don't think anyone can claim to be more authoritative than J. R. R. Tolkien himself.


> _
> from Letter #140 to Rayner Unwin 17 August 1953_
> *...The Two Towers gets as near as possible to finding a title to cover the widely divergent Books 3 and 4; and can be left ambiguous – it might refer to Isengard and Barad-dûr, or to Minas Tirith and B; or Isengard and Cirith Ungol.1 On reflection I prefer for Vol. III The War of the Ring, since it gets in the Ring again; and also is more non-committal, and gives less hint about the turn of the story : the chapter titles have been chosen also to give away as little as possible in advance. But I am not set in my choice.*





> _from Letter #143 to Raynor Unwin 22 January 1954... I post the letter in its entirety,_
> *I am not at all happy about the title 'the Two Towers'. It must if there is any real reference in it to Vol II refer to Orthanc and the Tower of Cirith Ungol. But since there is so much made of the basic opposition of the Dark Tower and Minas Tirith, that seems very misleading. There is, of course, actually no real connecting link between Books III and IV, when cut off and presented separately as a volume.*


Here follows a footnote to Letter #140 from The Letters. I'm not sure whether the commentary is from Humphrey Carpenter (Editor) or Christopher Tolkien (Contributor).


> _Footnote to Letter #140,_
> *[140] 1. In a subsequent letter to Rayner Unwin (no. 143), Tolkien is more definite that the Two Towers are 'Orthanc and the Tower of Cirith Ungol'. On the other hand, in his original design for the jacket of The Two Towers (see no. 151) the Towers are certainly Orthanc and Minas Morgul. Orthanc is shown as a black tower, three-homed (as seen in Pictures no. 27), and with the sign of the White Hand beside it; Minas Morgul is a white tower, with a thin waning moon above it, in reference to its original name. Minas Ithil, the Tower of the Rising Moon (The Fellowship of the Ring p. 257). Between the two towers a Nazgûl flies.*


Based on all these conflicting thoughts from the works own author, I stand by my opinion that The Two Towers are any of the Towers that the reader decides they should be. They are not any two specific towers as outlined by the author himself. 

For me, the Towers of Orthanc and Cirith Ungol work.

Eol, welcome to the forum and I hope this makes this issue more clear for you.


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## Walter (Aug 5, 2002)

What always strikes me funny is, how we keep repeating the same arguments or facts over and over again, which somehow reminds me of a tibetanian prayer wheel. For example the passages in Letter 140 and 143 have been quoted 4 times already...

Maybe we should just start replying RTFT (Read That F..unny Thread) instead?


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## Grond (Aug 5, 2002)

Walter,

It appeared that they needed to be quoted again since it was apparent that there was still some certain uncertainty on the issue.


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## Muffinly (Aug 5, 2002)

Barad-dur and orthanc


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## Grond (Aug 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Muffinly _
> *Barad-dur and orthanc *


LOL..... Welcome to the Forum!!!

Try reading some of the posts before coming to a conclusion.


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## pohuist (Aug 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Walter _
> *What always strikes me funny is, how we keep repeating the same arguments or facts over and over again, which somehow reminds me of a tibetanian prayer wheel. For example the passages in Letter 140 and 143 have been quoted 4 times already...
> 
> Maybe we should just start replying RTFT (Read That F..unny Thread) instead?  *



200%


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## Grond (Aug 6, 2002)

As long as people continue to ignore prior quotes which undermine their position, I will continue to repeatedly post the same stupid quotes that prove mine.


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## aragil (Aug 6, 2002)

That should be your new signature.


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## Gildor the Elf (Aug 25, 2002)

Well, there's many towers in LotR : 
Minas Morgul
Minas Tirith
Cirith Ungol
Osgiliath
Orthanc
Barad-Dûr 
Helms Deep
and others, but I think it's Minas Morgul and Orthanc, because in TTT, the most talked tower was Orthanc, as Minas Morgul is too.


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## WakanaTachibana (Aug 27, 2002)

Orthanac and Baradur are the Two Towers


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## Grond (Aug 27, 2002)

Aaaarghhhhh!!! Please read this thread in its entirety before you come in a throw out two names. The author clearly states that the Two Towers would likely mean Orthanc and Cirith Ungol since the first book of the Volume deals with Saruman and the second book of the Volume deals with Frodo and Sam's passage into Mordor and his capture in the Tower of Cirith Ungol. He also states that it would really be left up to the reader to decide since there are so many towers to choose from.

Read the quotes from the author's own mouth. I won't post them for a third time as Walter, Aragil, et. al. would go apoplectic. I will simply say rmpq.


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## pohuist (Aug 28, 2002)

Could someone please close posting on this thread. I think Grond said it all.


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## Beorn (Aug 28, 2002)

Good idea pohuist. For those wishing the answer, check out:
this: http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?postid=85182#post85182

and this: http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?postid=88164#post88164

and this: http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?postid=90330#post90330

and this: http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?postid=116285#post116285

and this: http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?postid=125787#post125787

and this: http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?postid=132433#post132433



OR this: http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?postid=132481#post132481


The first bunch support Minas Morgul and Orthanc, the last one supports Cirth Ungol and Orthanc. Considering that there are two contradictory excerpts from text, I think the topic is still quite open.

(Now, we won't start discussing the correct order, will we? )


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## Winch (Dec 9, 2002)

*What are the two towers?*

I'm confused. Where are the two towers the book is named for? It seems it's implied at least in the new movie that they would be Orthanc and Baradur being the seats of power of Saruman and Sauron. But the tower at Baradur is not the same as the tower at Cirith Ungol is it? At the end of FoTR it says the two towers are Orthanc and Cirith Ungol.


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## Anamatar IV (Dec 9, 2002)

I'd trust the books. Orthanc and I forget the second one it mentioned (I think Cirith Ungol) and that page of my book is gone.


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## Maeglin (Dec 9, 2002)

Oh no not a debate about this again, before you go any further read this, and could a mod please merge these 2 threads? thanks.


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## Winch (Dec 9, 2002)

Hmmm sorry, I should have known this would have been discussed. I hadn't seen that thread. Seems to be a lot of different views. I just read FoTR again last week and at the end the editor had a little note about the story continuing in The Two Towers and specifically named them Othanc and Cirith Ungol.


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## Maeglin (Dec 9, 2002)

hmm well I never was able to make up my mind after that thread I posted the link to, but originally I thought it was Orthanc and Cirith Ungol as well.


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## Cian (Dec 13, 2002)

The note that was published in FOTR reads _Orthanc_ and _Minas Morgul_ rather (or should read I would think).

According to Wayne Hammonds Bibliography, Tolkien saw and approved this ... which agrees with Tolkien's own final illustration for the cover of TTT.

¤


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## Winch (Dec 13, 2002)

The note in the back of FoTR I last read from our local libarary definately said Cirith Ungol. I have a big book called "The Atlas of Middle-Earth" by Karen Wynn Fonstad. It shows Cirith Ungol and the tower in pretty good detail but I don't see any mention of a tower at Minas Morgul (but I haven't read all the text of that book yet, I use it mostly as an atlas).


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## Muffinly (Dec 13, 2002)

Actually I think Minas means Tower, but i'm not positive.


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## lightingstrike (Dec 13, 2002)

I agree with Greymantle on this one. Yes, there was a part when we read in TT about the watch towers of Gondor playing an inportant part in the book. But, I have proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that the "Two Towers" are Brarad-dur and Orthanc. I am quite sure that almost all of you have the movie or DVD of The Fellowship. For those of you who own the DVD and have checked out the preview of the TT movie in the Bonus Features, you will remember that PJ specifically states that this movie is called The Two Towers and is refering to Orthanc, where Saruman is centered, and Brarad-dur, where Sarun is centered.


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## Manwë Súlimo (Dec 13, 2002)

but that is the movies not the books, in the movies Arwen is in The Two Towers, so how accurate can it be? and I remember reading somewhere that it is Orthanc and Cirith Ungol, the two towers where everything takes place.


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## Mablung (Dec 14, 2002)

Arwen is only in TTT in flash backs to Rivendell actually so it's not as bad as you think. Anyway Orthanc and Cirith Ungol are my opinion too Barad Dur is hardly seen in it.


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## Húrin Thalion (Dec 14, 2002)

> Actually I think Minas means Tower, but i'm not positive.



Entirely correct. The sindarin word for tower is Minas while the quenya translation is mindon. While I was looking around for a good wordlist I found some rather interesting glossarys that showed that quenya is very much like sindarin, king is Aran in both languages for example. Well that is something for the languages of Middle earth forum I think...

Also I have always assumed that the two towers would be Orthanc and Barad-Dûr for these towers are very central in the story and also there is the struggle between Saruman and Sauron as many have said before me.

Húrin Tahlion


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## Cian (Dec 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Winch _The note in the back of FoTR I last read from our local libarary definately said Cirith Ungol.



Are you sure? someone at another site claimed this ... but when this person checked it turned out he/she had mis-remembered (for Minas Morgul). I'm not saying you are mistaken  but that's just why I ask, you understand ...

... in any case _Minas Morgul_ was the tower in the FOTR note published when Tolkien was alive.

¤


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## Cian (Dec 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Húrin Thalion: _ While I was looking around for a good wordlist I found some rather interesting glossarys that showed that quenya is very much like sindarin, king is Aran in both languages for example.



The exiled Noldor and the Sindar could not understand one another at first, as their languages had indeed become too divergent during their long seperation ... but that said, the Elvish languages ultimately trace back historically of course ~ Sindarin was the most prominent descendant of Common Telerin, Common Telerin itself branching off from Common Eldarin <> the ancestor of Quenya.

Aran happens to be the same vocabulary word as the 'history' worked out, but the word occurs in different languages of course (also note Q. plural _arani_ vrs S. _erain_). 

¤


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## Winch (Dec 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Cian _
> *Are you sure? someone at another site claimed this ... but when this person checked it turned out he/she had mis-remembered (for Minas Morgul). I'm not saying you are mistaken  but that's just why I ask, you understand ...
> 
> ... in any case Minas Morgul was the tower in the FOTR note published when Tolkien was alive.
> ...



I'll have to go to the library and check that copy again. It was a couple of weeks ago I read it. I'm pretty sure that's what it said. Hope that copy is not out now. I'll let you know after I see it again.


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## Narsil (Dec 23, 2002)

*Missing facts*

I've read the complete thread and acknowledge what JRRT had to say. 

Some missing facts.

a) There are 6 towers that are significant in the book "Osgiliath" being the missing one. Not all of them were a direct part of the story, but they all contributed. 

b) I think all towers (with the possible exception of Barad-Dur) were built by Isildur and his descendants in the early days of the Third Age. Minas Ithil/Morgul was captured by the Witch King aka the chief Nazgul and was the centre of his "kingdom". This has only passing significance to the main characters so can be eliminated as one of the "Two".

c) As is pointed out later in the thread, the Fourth Book ends with Frodo's capture and imprisonment in Cirith Ungol. So CU would also have to be elminated. It only becomes a part of the story in the final volume of the trilogy.

Although the film clearly identifies Barad-Dur and Orthanc as the "Two", it seems to me that the middle book paints the picture of the forces of Good being focused in Minas Tirith and the story of Rohan eventually realising that the war will only be won by joining forces with Gondor in MT. Their story in the middle volume is finishing local business and coming to that final conclusion.

On the other hand we have the "distraction" of Saruman's capture by Sauron. He is delusional to think that even if he got his hands on the Ring, the ultimate controller would not still be Sauron. He is a thorn in the sides of the forces of Good and needs to be dealt with. But in the geo-politics of the Third Age, Saruman is a side-story. 

The "Two Towers" (in the weltanschauung of the whole trilogy) have to be Minas Tirith and Barad-Dur.


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## morello13 (Dec 23, 2002)

I don't if everybodys' FotR has this but at the end mine says the next book is entitiled the two towers as it refers to Orthanc and Minas Morgul where the most revelant things occur.

PJ would have you believe it is Orthanc and Bara-Dur as Saruman is looking into the Palantir and says the two towers orthanc and bara-dur united will rule this Middle Earth.


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## BlackCaptain (Jan 14, 2003)

*What towers are we talking about?*

I always believed that the Two Towers in the book were the towers of Orthanc and Barad-Dur. But at the end of my Fellowship book it sais:

_The second part is called THE TWO TOWERS, since the events recounted in it are dominated by ORTHANC, the citadel of Saruman, and the fortress of MINAS MORGUL that gaurds the secret entrance into Mordor; ..._ 

Are these the REAL 2 towers?


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## Isenho (Jan 14, 2003)

yeah, as what i think. Barad-dur didnt play that big of a part in TTT. it played nothing almost!


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## BlackCaptain (Jan 14, 2003)

The movie really swayed my final decision, cuz i didnt think that the movie could get the info wrong. at least info this important! So i just decided to go with Barad Dur being the second. My very first of all ideas was that the towers were Orthanc and Cirith Ungol. I guess i my first guess was closer...


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## Niniel (Jan 14, 2003)

Oh please, not this discussion again...
Check this thread: http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=3701
Anyway, I still think it's Orthanc and Cirith Ungol, since that is what JRRT himself said.


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## BlackCaptain (Jan 14, 2003)

It appears as though Tolkien shouldve picked a better title for his second book.

Ive looked over everything, and I seem to think that the 2 towers are either Orthanc and Morgul, ( I like how someone said that the Nazgul flies between them ) or Minas Tirith and Minis Morgul. Those 2 are the only actual pairs in the books. And Osgiliath, being the representation of the struggle between the two when it is attacked.

But im starting to really like the idea of Orthanc and Minas Morgul. They are the two towers that Sauron uses to launch attacks on everyone. Their the two towers that are puppets of Sauron. And even though Cirith Ungol may seem right, it is just a pass that Frodo and Sam go through, and i dont think it is important enough in the big picture as Morgul and Orthanc are. Minas Morgul and Orthanc are the Towers that each book is centered around (kind of) and they are the 2 most important towers to Sauron, save Barad-Dur itself.


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## LordOfMoria (Jan 14, 2003)

you know, it could ne both Minas Tirith and Minas Morgul and then Orthanc and Barad Dur. maybe it kinda co implies the two towers off each side!!!


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## greypilgrim (Jan 15, 2003)

Nada. It's Orthanc and Minas Morgul "The Tower of Sorcery", "The Tower of Isengard". And there's this, events in books 3 and 4 take place at these two Towers. respectively.


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## LordOfMoria (Jan 15, 2003)

ah i always thought it was barad dur.


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## Mablung (Jan 15, 2003)

I think that Orthanc and Barad Dur were the Two Towers because it was referring to the two kingdoms the towers lead.


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## LordOfMoria (Jan 15, 2003)

Is it writen down? specifically did Tolkien write it? Or are we just assuming it based on our knowlage of it?


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## Mithlond (Jan 15, 2003)

*greypilgrim*: No events that we know of ever took place first hand within Minas Morgul in books 3 and 4. Frodo was taken to the tower of Cirith Ungol, which is a seperate tower.

I've always believed the two towers refered to Orthanc and _Cirith Ungol_. Tolkien even states in the letters that he intended these to be the two towers, as the two story threads take place around them.
But i think he later changed his mind, making them Orthanc and _Minas Morgul_, as the cover he drew for one of the two towers editions depicts a Nazgul flying between these two towers.
Click here for the image.
This was the final cover design by Tolkien, and as you can see, there is Minas Morgul on the left with the moon above and below it (the tower of the moon, Minas Ithil) and on the right we have Orthanc, with the white hand of Saruman.


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## Cian (Jan 15, 2003)

Bah. I don't care what Jackson, or any movie says 

As posted: _"The second part is called THE TWO TOWERS, since the events recounted in it are dominated by ORTHANC, the citadel of Saruman, and the fortress of MINAS MORGUL that gaurds the secret entrance into Mordor; ..."_ FOTR

According to Wayne Hammond's bibliography, JRRT saw and approved this before it was published (Tolkien was alive when it was published in any case) ... also it makes sense, as these are the same towers that Tolkien (ultimately) depicted for the cover.


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## greypilgrim (Jan 15, 2003)

*Mithlond* -Cool picture! The Tower on the left is obviously Minas Morgul (formerly Minas Ithil) "Tower of the Rising Moon" and the other is Orthanc, which means "Mount Fang", and "the Cunning Mind".

From "The Stairs of Cirith Ungol".......

"....Upon the further side, some way within the valley's arms, high on a rocky seat upon the black knees of the Ephel Duath, stood the walls and tower of Minas Morgul. All was dark about it, earth and sky, but it was lit with light. Not the imprisoned moonlight welling through the marbled walls of Minas Ithil long ago, Tower of the Moon, fair and radiant in the hollow of the hills. Paler indeed than the moon ailing in some slow eclipse was the lightn of it now, wavering and blowing like a noisome exhalation of decay, a corpse-light, a light that illuminated nothing. In the walls and tower windows showed, like countless black holes looking inward into emptiness; but the topmost course of the tower revolved slowly, first one way and then the other, a huge ghostly head leering into the night."

Then the three pass the bridge and go up the path, and while they rest there is a tumult in the earth and a great red flash in the east, then came a great crack of thunder:

"And Minas Morgul answered. There was a flare of livid lightnings: forks of blue flame springing up from the tower and from the encircling hills into the sullen clouds. The earth groaned; and out of the city there came a cry. Mingled with harsh high voices as of birds of prey, and the shrill neighing of horses wild with rage and fear, there came a rending screech, shivering, rising swiftly to a piercing pitch beyond the range of hearing............And out of the gate an army came.........Before them went a great cavalry of horsemen moving like ordered shadows, and at their head was one greater than all the rest: a Rider, all black, save that on his hooded head he had a helm like a crown that flickered with a perilous light............Here indeed was the haggard king whose cold hand had smitten down the Ringbearer with his deadly knife."

Then they stop and he tries to sense Frodo, then move on again, to war with Gondor.
Isn't that a major event in TTT? I think this must be the other "Tower" in the title.


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## lightingstrike (Jan 16, 2003)

I know that I really shouldn't post this in the book section, but I think I need to. To those of you who do not have the DVD and don't think it is Barad-du and Orthanc go to the nearest Blockbuster and rent FoTR. You don't even have to watch the movie, just go directly to the special features disc and choose, Two Towers preview. In it PJ specificaly says that the title "The Two Towers" refers to Barad-du and Orthanc. To those of you who already knew that, Good job


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## Dáin Ironfoot I (Jan 16, 2003)

*Mithlond said...*



> I've always believed the two towers refered to Orthanc and Cirith Ungol



Errr... Mithlond, no offense but Cirith Ungol was not even a tower. It was a pass, and an evil one at that. Yes there were many stairs and tunnels but they were all inside the cliffs of Mordor (Emyn Lythien? I think its close to that...) We know they were inside a mountain for Shelob hated light just like her mother, Ungoliant. Minas Morgul was an interesting part of the book, but it is not one of the Two Towers for it was under the sway of Barad-dur. Thus, Barad-dur and Orthanc were the Two Towers for they were the prominent ones in Middle Earth at the time.


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## greypilgrim (Jan 16, 2003)

Barad Dur and Orthanc.
Minas Tirith and Minas Morgul.


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## Grond (Jan 16, 2003)

*Re: Mithlond said...*



> _Originally posted by Dáin Ironfoot I _
> *Errr... Mithlond, no offense but Cirith Ungol was not even a tower. It was a pass, and an evil one at that. Yes there were many stairs and tunnels but they were all inside the cliffs of Mordor (Emyn Lythien? I think its close to that...) We know they were inside a mountain for Shelob hated light just like her mother, Ungoliant. Minas Morgul was an interesting part of the book, but it is not one of the Two Towers for it was under the sway of Barad-dur. Thus, Barad-dur and Orthanc were the Two Towers for they were the prominent ones in Middle Earth at the time. *


Dain, my man... there was most definately a tower at Cirith Ungol... that was where Frodo was taken after he was bitten by Shelob. I suggest you read this thread over again and reread the quotes from the author himself where he suggests that his first impression would be that the two towers were Orthanc (since book 3 is mainly concerned with Rohan and Saruman) and Cirith Ungol (since book 4 is mainly concerned with Frodo's attempt to enter Mordor which end with his capture at Cirith Ungol).


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## aragil (Jan 16, 2003)

I'm amazed that anyone can deny that Cirith Ungol was a tower, given that there is an entire chapter of the books called The *Tower* of Cirith Ungol. Each to his own, I guess.
Just a reminder that I posted a while back on this thread- I don't think there is a definitive answer to this question. Tolkien wrote the narrative structure without the title "The Two Towers" in mind, thus it's no surprise that the narrative structure yields no Two Towers which easily fit the title. The title of the book then fits to whichever two towers the reader most identifies with as dominating the narrative. No one person's view on this is more authoratitive than another's- even the two towers of the teeth at the Gate of Mordor could satisfy the role. Not that I'm trying to shut down debate, but I hope that nobody thinks their opinion is superior or inferior to anyone else's on this thread.


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## greypilgrim (Jan 16, 2003)

The Tower of Cirith Ungol is little more than a watchtower in comparison to Minas Morgul, and Minas Morgul is the Capital of the Ringwraiths! How could these not be the ones referred to?


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## Mithlond (Jan 17, 2003)

*Dain:* As aragil has pointed out above, do you not remember that very first chapter of book six; *The Tower of Cirith Ungol*???

It really doesnt matter what type of tower Cirith Ungol was, the fact is it was a tower, and it just happened to be the tower in which the main story heads into. Never does the story or characters enter into Minas Morgul.


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## Dáin Ironfoot I (Jan 17, 2003)

Errr... I guess I was wrong...  

I guess the tower was the thing that the sun shone through or whatever, I usually read the book late at night so I tend to skip over the more important descriptive parts of the book. I always thought Cirith Ungol was the name of the pass and the tower was outside of it, but eveidently Cirith Ungol was the tower and the pass?... I think that its wierd a spider would live in a tower and not in a subterranean cavern of some sort.

Could someone explain exactly what Cirith Ungol was and where Frodo and Sam were being led through to get to Shelob. I had thought it was a cave through the inside of the mountain and a tower was at the other end of it or the beginning. (I rememeber Frodo seeing the red sun through a statue or a light in a tower that reminded him of the Argonath.) Err... Im confused


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## aragil (Jan 17, 2003)

I believe Cirith Ungol was the name of the pass, and the tower behind was called the Tower of Cirith Ungol. However, the tower could also be referred to as Cirith Ungol, in the same way you might say New York instead of New York City.


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## Vorathion (Jan 17, 2003)

On The description of my Two towers book cover with the towers and a nazgul flying to and from them,it had the white hand of saruman and the moon above both towers,it's gotta be Minus ithil/morgal and The tower of Orthanc


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## Dáin Ironfoot I (Jan 17, 2003)

OK, thats what I thought... but I just never thought of the tower being called Cirith Ungol  . But I was saying it wasnt a tower earlier becuase I thought you were referring to the actual PASSAGE, not the tower. My bad. I still think its Barad dur and Orthanc.


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## Celebthôl (Jan 17, 2003)

my god after 15 pages we're still dicussing what towers Mr Tolkien is talking about (i hope as i cant be naffed to read any of it), he was blatantly refuring to the towers of Orthanc and Minas Morgul, as he even states this in the back of TFOTR, and it is these because they are where all the scenes are based around in TTT!!!

Thôl


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## Cian (Jan 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Celebthôl _*my god after 15 pages we're still dicussing what towers Mr Tolkien is talking about (i hope as i cant be naffed to read any of it), he was blatantly refuring to the towers of Orthanc and Minas Morgul, as he even states this in the back of TFOTR, and it is these because they are where all the scenes are based around in TTT!!!*



LoL! Yep, that's what is says in FOTR  And according to Wayne Hammond's bibliography Tolkien approved this.

And had JRRT's cover been used at the time (it's now in print) I doubt this thread would surface much ~ but perhaps in the form of something like: Why are the Two Towers _Orthanc and Minas Morgul_ like Tolkien drew on the cover and is stated in FOTR?


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## Heathertoes (Jan 20, 2003)

Yes, yes, yes. 
Muppet-boy Jackson got it wrong.


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## aragil (Jan 20, 2003)

I hardly see how PJ could be considered to have gotten it wrong, given that JRRT had problems with which two towers the name referred to. In any case, given that the movie doesn't mention Minas Morgul or Cirith Ungol, it would certainly be interesting how either of them could be one of the two towers in the movie.


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## BlackCaptain (Jan 20, 2003)

good point, but i think that PJ left them out because he wanted it to be Orthanc and Barad-dur. If he put Minas Morgul in, people might start to consider it the second tower, and perhaps he just didnt want any confusion.

and im sticking with Morgul and Orthanc. Their the puppets of Sauron, the 2 Towers that are most threatening (save Barad-dur itself) and well, its kinda like:

Barad-Dur
__¦__
¦ ¦
Orthanc Minas Morgul


Those are the rankings of the towers (in my opinion), and the 2 below Barad-dur, and held in highest regards to Sauron were Orthanc and Minas Morgul


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## BlackCaptain (Jan 20, 2003)

oops, that trree came out wrong... well it should be:


Barad dur> Orthanc + Minas Morgul. Minas Morgul = Orthanc in terms of "ranks" in Sauron's eyes... something like that...


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## Greymantle.com (Nov 14, 2004)

Guys Guys Guys...... hmmm where to start ... 1st BUY THE SIMARILLION...and you'll get your answer faster than waiting for me ....


FYI: Sorry Greymantle(admin).... 1st time I meet up with my double, I'm actualy surprise to see that someone else knows about "Greymantle" name.....(well I assume you do!)... ..... Before I drop some more info on TTT...Plz, later take some time to go enjoy the Visual archives on LOTR, (wallpaper) and major links.

The Towers you are all looking for are ....1. Barad-Hur which is also called "Darktower" and the other is ...... Minas-Ithill... which in it's history was the "Moontower".... , to know more about these 2 , get the Simarrillion an read up to the part that explain the powershift which happend in the first age ...

The movie does have 2 Towers as main subject, all that happends in the TTT movie is BECAUSE of what happend in the first (or 2nd age) between the TTT. It's a powershift that happend more or less at the same time that the 2 " Minas-.... cities were subverted, during the reign of the first KINGS.

What the Others were ......
*C*irith-Ungol :This where Shelob holds her Lair
*O*rthanc welll we know this 1) but....  it was granted by Steward Beren to the Wizard Saruman, who was at that time working as an ally of Gondor.
*M*inas Morgul:'Minas Morgul' was the name given to this city after its capture by the Nazgûl in III 2002. The city itself, though, was much older - as Minas Ithil, it had stood since the late Second Age, and was some 2,100 years old when it was renamed. For its origins and earlier history, refer to the entry for Minas Ithil.
*M*inas Tirith :The tower that guarded the Pass of Sirion, after which Minas Tirith in Gondor was perhaps named. Built by Finrod Felagund to keep watch on the western pass of Beleriand, it was mainly in the keeping of his brother Orodreth until captured by Sauron in the late First Age.

....and if I remember correctly there's another 2 more twrs that i can't seem to remember the names but which aren't related to these events !


FYI : I think that Greymantle (admin) does a great job with this board .. pls do not confuse us while reading each message, merits goes to him ... me , Greymantle[.com] or A.K.A. / The Wanderer ... will as ever ... stay in the Shadows .

.... In Mordor , where the shadows lies !
Farewell travellers and till the next meeting comes up !
www.greymantle.com
Greymantle, Wanderer of Midle-Earth !


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## Greymantle.com (Nov 14, 2004)

BTW .... yes me agian .... CIRITH_UNGOL IS NOT A TOWER ... it's a pass ---
The pass through the Ephel Dúath on the western borders of Mordor that lay above the tower of Minas Morgul. 

.... In Mordor , where the shadows lies !
Farewell travellers and till the next meeting comes up !
www.greymantle.com
Greymantle.com , Wanderer of Midle-Earth ! (NOT Greymantle (admin).. leave the merit to him plz).


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## Maeglin (Nov 14, 2004)

All I have to say is.....wow. Have you not read the thread? The whole thing is arguing which 2 towers Tolkien is referring to in the book, and just because you said which 2 they are, you're automatically right? I'm afraid it doesn't work that way....provide some legitimate proof of the things you say, and no one will argue with you. We know what all of the towers are, we've been reading the books for a very long time, but thanks for providing all of the names to us anyway....by the way, the other 2 you're thinking of are probably the White Towers, which are (fittingly) located on the White Downs to the west of the Shire. 
And what power shift in the First Age are you talking about that has anything to do with the events in TTT? At the end of the First Age none of the towers that are around in The Lord of the Rings are even in existence. The First Age has absolutely nothing to do with the events in TTT. 


> Barad-Hur which is also called "Darktower"


What is Barad-Hur? Do you mean Barad-Dur, Sauron's Dark Tower?


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## Aulë (Nov 14, 2004)

Greymantle.com said:


> BTW .... yes me agian .... CIRITH_UNGOL IS NOT A TOWER ... it's a pass ---
> The pass through the Ephel Dúath on the western borders of Mordor that lay above the tower of Minas Morgul.



As Maeglin said, you probably should read the thread before prattling off statements like this. As Grond, aragil and Mithlond have already said, there was an entire _chapter_ of the Two Towers called *The Tower of Cirith Ungol. *Yes, the pass is also called Cirith Ungol, but the tower _does_ exist.



> 1. Barad-Hur which is also called "Darktower" and the other is ...... Minas-Ithill... which in it's history was the "Moontower"..


I assume you are talking about Minas Morgul and Barad-dûr? I seriously doubt that, since Barad-dûr and Minas Morgul play a very minor role in the Two Towers. The only combinations that would make any sense would be Orthanc & Cirith Ungol (because of the amount of time spent at both), Barad-dûr & Orthanc (because of the whole Sauron/Saruman thing) or Minas Morgul & Minas Tirith (although highly unlikely, since Minas Tirith was not fully introduced until the third book).



> The movie does have 2 Towers as main subject, all that happends in the TTT movie is BECAUSE of what happend in the first (or 2nd age) between the TTT. It's a powershift that happend more or less at the same time that the 2 " Minas-.... cities were subverted, during the reign of the first KINGS.


We are talking about the _books_, not the movies...



> Guys Guys Guys...... hmmm where to start ... 1st BUY THE SIMARILLION...and you'll get your answer faster than waiting for me ....


I assure you that the majority of the members who have posted in this thread would have read the Silmarillion. Many times in some cases. Anyway, there is more information in the Appendices of LotR regarding the towers of Gondor than there is in Silmarillion, so I do not see where you are coming from there....especially since you appear to have just c+p that info from the Encyclopedia of Arda....please cite the website you copy from next time, please.


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## Starflower (Nov 15, 2004)

I think that one of the Two Towers referred to in the book is certainly Orthanc, but as to the other.. there are several options as already mentioned. It could be Tower of Cirith Ungol, as that is where Frodo is being taken to, it could be Tower of Minas Morgul, as that looms large in the background when Frodo & Sam travel through Ithilien. It could be Barad-Dur, as it is THE Tower of the story, or it could be the Tower of Minas Tirith. As Orthanc seems the likely candidate for the first spot, I am inclined to think that Barad-dur would be the second Tower. There is a clear powerstruggle going on between Sauron and Saruman, Saruman trying to double-cross Sauron, while pretending to be an ally. As we find in this book, there was a link between the two towers, the Palantiri that both held. 
Minas Tirith doesn't really feature until the third book, and Minas Morgul is just 'there', in the background, nothign really takes palce there, and Frodo's imprisonment in Cirith Ungol is in the third book as well.


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## Arvedui (Nov 15, 2004)

Maeglin said:


> by the way, the other 2 you're thinking of are probably the White Towers, which are (fittingly) located on the White Downs to the west of the Shire.


Wasn't there 3 White Towers?


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## Arvedui (Nov 15, 2004)

Greymantle.com, I don't understand how you have come to your rather peculiar conclusion?

Barad-Dûr did not exsist in the First Age, although Minas Ithil did. But that Minas Ithil didn't have have anything to do with _The Lord of the Rings_. That Minas Ithil was in Beleriand, and in the Third Age was under a lot of water.

As has been stated before, the Two towers in question was Orthanc and Minas Morgul.


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## Aglarband (Nov 16, 2004)

I feel that which Two Towers it is redundant. considering it means nothing to the plot. Tolkein hated giving away the storyline of a book through the Title, so he called Books 1 and 2 Fellowship of the RIng, cause what the **** does that tell you? And The Two Towers, again no information about the book is given. Tolkein was very much against the idea of calling the 3rd book Return of the King, but the Publishers had already decided that as the title. The Two Towers can be any two towers you want them to be. I however feel the two towers are Orthanc and Minas Morgul, the towers of the star(?) and moon, considering that a tower with a star over it and a tower with a moon over it was the original book cover. Also it has the White Hand and the Eye underneath
See: http://www.tolkien.co.uk/images/downloads/wallpaper/tt_1280x1024.jpg


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## Astaldo (Nov 23, 2004)

The problem is that all combination are possible.

1st) Barad-dur/Orthanc (The two evil towers)

2nd) Barad-dur/Minas Tirith (Opposite towers)

3rd) Orthanc/Minas Tirith (the same as above)

But before I read this discussion I thought it was Orthanc and Barad-dur, though now I am not so sure about it.


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## Narsil (Nov 28, 2004)

Aglarband said:


> The Two Towers can be any two towers you want them to be. I however feel the two towers are Orthanc and Minas Morgul, the towers of the star(?) and moon, considering that a tower with a star over it and a tower with a moon over it was the original book cover. Also it has the White Hand and the Eye underneath
> See: http://www.tolkien.co.uk/images/downloads/wallpaper/tt_1280x1024.jpg



Interesting...I've never seen that cover. My set of books have pictures from the movies on them and my "Big Book" of LOTR definitely has Barad-dur on it. 

I wonder how much input Tolkien himself had with that cover or was it something the publisher came up with? It's interesting because on the left side it definitely looks like Minas Morgul.., which was once Minas Ithil "Tower of the Moon". There's the moon above the tower and the earth below is black (symbolizing evil?)... and there's the red eye...

On the right side it looks to be Orthanc, and the white hand of Saruman is underneath. I'm wondering what the star represents  ..Osgiliath is the "Fortress of the Stars"... Orthanc is "Forked Height"..Hmmm..  

Now to add to the confusion...



Grond said:


> When I finally read the Letters of JRRT and they make it clear that the author deemed Orthanc and Cirith Ungol to be the two to which the story referred. This is very logical if one thinks about it. Book 3 details the Broken Fellowship pursuing the Uruk-hai of Orthanc and ultimately the defeat of Saruman and the fall of Orthanc to the Ents. Thus Book 3 could have easily been entitled "The Fall of Orthanc".
> 
> Book 4 details Frodo and Samwise's passage along the edge of Mordor from the Dead Marshes to the Morannon to their final ascent into the mountains beyond Minas Morgul which ultimately ended with Frodo's capture in the Tower of Cirith Ungol. Thus Book 4 could have easily been entitled "Trapped in the Tower of Cirith Ungol". Looking at it this way makes it very easy for me to understand how the author decided upon which two towers to focus.



Well..If Tolkien himself said it was Orthanc and the Tower of Cirth Ungol I think that pretty much confirms it. 

But then again, there's that book cover which Tolkien was said to have sketched and I tend to think Minas Morgul and Orthanc...  

Before seeing that cover and reading about Tolkien's letter I was inclined to think of the "The Two Towers" as Barad-dur and Orthanc.

I guess I'm inclined to go with Orthanc and the tower of Cirith Ungol because these towers are featured in the book and heck, Tolkien _did_ make mention of them.


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## Ingwë (Jun 17, 2005)

> Horsemen were galloping on the grass of Rohan; wolves poured from Isengard. From the havens of Harad ships of war put out to sea; and out of the East Men were moving endlessly: swordsmen, spearmen, bowmen upon horses, chariots of chieftains and laden wains. All the power of the Dark Lord was in motion. Then turning south again he beheld *Minas Tirith*. Far away it seemed. and beautiful: white-walled, many-towered, proud and fair upon its mountain-seat; its battlements glittered with steel, and its turrets were bright with many banners. Hope leaped in his heart. But against Minas Tirith was set another fortress, greater and more strong. Thither, eastward, unwilling his eye was drawn. It passed the ruined bridges of Osgiliath, the grinning gates of Minas Morgul. and the haunted Mountains, and it looked upon Gorgoroth, the valley of terror in the Land of Mordor. Darkness lay there under the Sun. Fire glowed amid the smoke. Mount Doom was burning, and a great reek rising. Then at last his gaze was held: wall upon wall, battlement upon battlement, black, immeasurably strong, mountain of iron, gate of steel, tower of adamant, he saw it: *Barad-dûr*, Fortress of Sauron. All hope left him.


I think that's enough


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## Alatar (Jun 17, 2005)

> Horsemen were galloping on the grass of Rohan; wolves poured from *Isengard*. From the havens of Harad ships of war put out to sea; and out of the East Men were moving endlessly: swordsmen, spearmen, bowmen upon horses, chariots of chieftains and laden wains. All the power of the Dark Lord was in motion. Then turning south again he beheld Minas Tirith. Far away it seemed. and beautiful: white-walled, many-towered, proud and fair upon its mountain-seat; its battlements glittered with steel, and its turrets were bright with many banners. Hope leaped in his heart. But against Minas Tirith was set another fortress, greater and more strong. Thither, eastward, unwilling his eye was drawn. It passed the ruined bridges of Osgiliath, the grinning gates of *Minas Morgul*. and the haunted Mountains, and it looked upon Gorgoroth, the valley of terror in the Land of Mordor. Darkness lay there under the Sun. Fire glowed amid the smoke. MountDoom was burning, and a great reek rising. Then at last his gaze was held: wall upon wall, battlement upon battlement, black, immeasurably strong, mountain of iron, gate of steel, tower of adamant, he saw it: Barad-dûr, Fortress of Sauron. All hope left him.


I think that's enough.
Seriously, i think that it is orthanc, and Minas morgul(which i think should have a tower, Barad Morgul, Barad Tirith..) as it the book is about saruman, and the reaching the stairs.
Btw, that quote was from the fellowship.


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## ingolmo (Jun 18, 2005)

Yep, I'm with Alatar, it's Orthanc and Minas Morgul. 
And how about making this a poll?


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## Alatar (Jun 18, 2005)

Good idea, i'll ask a mod.


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## Ingwë (Jun 19, 2005)

Orthanc and Minas Morgul are Evil towers; Minas Tirith is a White tower and Barad Dur is a Dark Tower. They are great enemies so I think these are the Two Towers


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## Gothmog (Jun 19, 2005)

Ok, I haven't added a poll to this thread. (waits for everybody to check the top of the page again  )

I have merged RD's thread (which did include a poll) into it


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## Feorran (Jun 20, 2005)

I'm sorry if this has been stated before. I didn't bother to read the seventeen pages of discussion on which towers they are. I did read the first couple, and the latest-that was enough for me.

I think Tolkien purposefully titled it The Two Towers with no specific two towers in mind. As a sort of gimmick. So that we could discuss it for days on end... Heh.


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## Luthien Elenese (Jun 20, 2005)

(sorry also if this has been said already)

I always thought it was Minas Tirith and Minas Morgul (the towers of Guard and Sorcery), formerly Minas Anor and Minas Ithil (the towers of Sun and Moon). Anor and Ithil would have been great strongholds in their time, named by Elendil for his two sons Isildur and Anarion. Then, in the third age they were both changed by the times, one now a place of stronghold of evil and the other, although still kept by the Numenorien rulers (or at least waiting for their rulers to return ), a shadow of it's former glory. Then, after the return of the king, both fortresses were reclaimed by king Elessar.


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## Alatar (Jun 21, 2005)

Minas Tirth is not in it though, when Orthanc is. Though the to Minas' could be it.


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## ingolmo (Jun 25, 2005)

Here's a qoute from _The Return of the King_ Chapter 10: The Black Gate opens to liven up the arguments here.


> ... and now near loomed the great rampart of Cirith Gorgor, and the Black Gate amidmost, and the two Towers of the Teeth tall and dark upon either side...


Whatdya think?


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## Kelendil (Jul 13, 2005)

I just finished FOTR again this afternoon, and this is what is says on the last page. I had never noticed it before, but I had the forum in mind. It says:


_"Here ends the first part of the history of the War of the Ring. The second part is called THE TWO TOWERS, since the events recounted in it are dominated by ORTHANC, the citadel of Saruman, and the fortress of MINAS MORGUL, that guards the secret entrance to Mordor; it tells of the deeds and perils of all the members of the now sundered fellowship, until the coming of the great darkness." _


Therein lies the answer.


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## Ingwë (Jul 13, 2005)

This is endless thread... 
If we think about Book Two, 'The Two Towers', then the Two Towers are Orthanc and Minas Morgul. If we think about the Book 'The Lord of the Rings', then I think that two towers are Minas Tirith and Barad-Dur. The Dark lord attacked the White Tower - Minas Tirith.


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## ingolmo (Jul 13, 2005)

But this thread is about the Two Towers, not the LotR. If it were about LotR, there would be innumerable choices for the two towers. And if it is said in the LotR, then it's correct. That said, Minas Morgul and Orthanc are the Two Towers.


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## Ingwë (Aug 8, 2005)

> *J. R. R. Tolkien - Letter 140*
> I now suggest as titles of the Volumes under the over-all title lord of the Rings: Volume I: The Fellowship of the Ring, Volume II: The Two Towers, Volume III: The War of the Ring (or, if you still prefer that: The Return of the King).
> The Fellowship of the Ring will do, I think, and it fits with the fact that the last chapter of the Volume is the "Breaking of the Fellowship". [highlight]The Two Towers gets as near as possible to finding a title to cover the widely divergent Books 3 and 4; and can be left ambigious: I might refer to Isengard and Barad-dur, or to Minas Tirith and Barad-dur or to Isegard and Cirith Ungol.[/highlight] On reflections I prefer for Volume III The War of the Ring, since it gets to the Ring again and also is more non-committal, and gives less hinty of the story: the chapter titles have been chosen also to give away as little as possible in advance. But I am not set in my choice...


Is that enough?


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## Elthir (Aug 10, 2005)

A Tolkien approved quote, and published in _The Lord of the Rings_...


_*"Here ends the first part of the history of the War of the Ring. The second part is called THE TWO TOWERS, since the events recounted in it are dominated by ORTHANC, the citadel of Saruman, and the fortress of MINAS MORGUL, that guards the secret entrance to Mordor; it tells of the deeds and perils of all the members of the now sundered fellowship, until the coming of the great darkness."*_


And already posted too, but perhaps not yet in this colour 

*Galin*


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## Ingwë (Aug 15, 2005)

Book III:
The story in about the battle at Helm's Deep and destroying Orthanc. 

Book IV:
The story is about Frodo, Sam, Smeagol, Cirith Ungol...

There are two different stories! 




> Letter #143





> I am sending now Book III, first half of Vol. II, carefully corrected. Book IV is nearly done and shall follow on Monday.
> I have also revised Vol. III and can let you have the MS. of that (as far as the end of the story) as soon as you wish. The matter for the extra 50 pages I shall not be able to do just yet.
> 
> *I am not at all happy about the title 'the Two Towers'. It must if there is any real reference in it to Vol II refer to Orthanc and the Tower of Cirith Ungol. But since there is so much made of the basic opposition of the Dark Tower** and Minas Tirith, that seems very misleading. There is, of course, actually no real connecting link between Books III and IV, when cut off and presented separately as a volume*.


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## Elthir (Aug 15, 2005)

Tolkien decided to publish (allow to be published) *Orthanc and Minas Morgul* in _The Lord of the Rings_.

Tolkien also decided to ultimately submit (for publication) a rendering of *Orthanc and Minas Morgul* for the cover of _The Two Towers_.

Posting information from Tolkien's letters might be interesting here, but Tolkien-approved published text is another matter in my opinion. Tolkien's final rendering of the cover became somewhat 'behind the scenes' in itself, as things worked out (though this cover has since been published), but in any case Tolkien submitted the illustration _for publication_ at the time -- he did not submit a drawing of Cirith Ungol for example -- nor did he reject the text intended to appear at the end of _The Fellowship of the Ring_ and refer his publishers to a letter he had once written stating that he was unhappy with the title (or whatever). 

Tolkien also vacillated about Celeborn for example. Unpublished accounts may be interesting (and are), but they shouldn't necessarily muddle up the fact that Tolkien published that Celeborn was one of the Sindar (as opposed to a Teler of Aman as described in a letter). 



*Galin*


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## Bergil (Aug 15, 2005)

maybe the two towers are Sam and Frodo...haha just a thought


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## Ingwë (Aug 17, 2005)

Book III and Vook IV are quite different. The Title 'The Two Towers' is a title that tries to unite the two books. 

And here are the other 'possible' titles:
The Lord of the Rings. I The Return of the Shadow.
*" " " " " II The Shadow Lengthens.*
" " " " " III The Return of the King.

Would it not do if the 'book-titles' were used: e.g. The Lord of the Rings: Vol. I The Ring Sets out and The Ring Goes South; *Vol. II The Treason of Isengard, and The Ring goes East;* Vol. III The War of the Ring, and The End of the Third Age'?

Do you see 'The Two Towers'? No  .

And you say _'Tolkien decided to publish (allow to be published) *Orthanc and Minas Morgu*l in The Lord of the Rings.'_ 
I think that's enough  Maybe the publishers wanted the answer of the question; Tolkien gave them the answer but he didn't want.

Btw, Galin, where are you from? My real name is Galin and I am from Bulgaria


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## Eowyn of Rohan (Sep 2, 2005)

I always thought the two towers were Orthanc and Minas Morgul. In my Fellowship of the Ring book, at the end, it says something like "The next book, The Two Towers, focuses on Orthanc, where Saruman is, and Minas Morgul, home to the secret passage into Mordor". Obviously, that's not the correct wording but you get the idea of what I'm talking about.


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## ingolmo (Sep 13, 2005)

Galin said:


> A Tolkien approved quote, and published in _The Lord of the Rings_...
> 
> 
> _*"Here ends the first part of the history of the War of the Ring. The second part is called THE TWO TOWERS, since the events recounted in it are dominated by ORTHANC, the citadel of Saruman, and the fortress of MINAS MORGUL, that guards the secret entrance to Mordor; it tells of the deeds and perils of all the members of the now sundered fellowship, until the coming of the great darkness."*_
> ...



I posted that actually, and I still stand by it, even though Ingwe's quote is quite convincing. But the thing is, that at the time when Tolkien wrote that letter, he was still uunnsure of that, but in the quote that I and Galin gave, Tolkien seemed sure of that fact.


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## Ingwë (Sep 14, 2005)

ingolmo said:


> But the thing is, that at the time when Tolkien wrote that letter, he was still uunnsure of that, but in the quote that I and Galin gave, Tolkien seemed sure of that fact.


Galin and you? That means me and you  And the other Galin and you as well. 
About the thread: some time ago I was checking the Letters. As far as I remember there was something about the Two Towers. I wrote that paragraph on paper. I'll find it and I'll post here


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## Elthir (Sep 14, 2005)

_



from Letter #140 to Rayner Unwin 17 August 1953

Click to expand...

_


> *'...The Two Towers gets as near as possible to finding a title to cover the widely divergent Books 3 and 4; and can be left ambiguous – it might refer to Isengard and Barad-dûr, or to Minas Tirith and B; or Isengard and Cirith Ungol.1 On reflection I prefer for Vol. III The War of the Ring, since it gets in the Ring again; and also is more non-committal, and gives less hint about the turn of the story : the chapter titles have been chosen also to give away as little as possible in advance. But I am not set in my choice.'*
> 
> _from Letter #143 to Raynor Unwin 22 January 1954... I post the letter in its entirety, '_*I am not at all happy about the title 'the Two Towers'. It must if there is any real reference in it to Vol II refer to Orthanc and the Tower of Cirith Ungol. But since there is so much made of the basic opposition of the Dark Tower and Minas Tirith, that seems very misleading. There is, of course, actually no real connecting link between Books III and IV, when cut off and presented separately as a volume.'*
> 
> ...




Grond posted this, in this thread, back in 2002.

In any case, according to Wayne Hammond, Tolkien ultimately approved the explanation (for_ publication_) about the towers that appears in _The Fellowship of the Ring_. Tolkien also submitted his final design for the cover of The Two Towers (see _J.R.R. Tolkien: Artist & Illustrator_. London: HarperCollins; Boston: Houghton Mifflin, 1995 by *Wayne G. Hammond & Christina Scull*). This drawing has now also been published as a cover for The Two Towers and depicts the same two towers as described in The Fellowship.

*Galin*


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## Grond (Sep 14, 2005)

Galin said:


> Grond posted this, in this thread, back in 2002.
> 
> In any case, according to Wayne Hammond, Tolkien ultimately approved the explanation (for_ publication_) about the towers that appears in _The Fellowship of the Ring_. Tolkien also submitted his final design for the cover of The Two Towers (see _J.R.R. Tolkien: Artist & Illustrator_. London: HarperCollins; Boston: Houghton Mifflin, 1995 by *Wayne G. Hammond & Christina Scull*). This drawing has now also been published as a cover for The Two Towers and depicts the same two towers as described in The Fellowship.
> 
> *Galin*


Holy crapola! It was that long ago?? Seems like it was only yesteday.

BTW, I thought this issue was settled long ago. Did someone not read the entire thread?? Naughty! Naughty!

Cheers,

grond


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