# "It was moving fast then, and not with the wind"



## Arthur_Vandelay (Jun 8, 2004)

From _The Lord of the Rings_, "The Ring Goes South"


> It was a cold chill hour before the first stir of dawn, and the moon was low. Frodo looked up at the sky. Suddenly he saw or felt a shadow pass over the high stars, as if for a moment they faded and then flashed out again. He shivered.
> "Did you see anything pass over?" he whispered to Gandalf, who was just ahead.
> "No, but I felt it, whatever it was," he answered. "It may be nothing, only a wisp of thin cloud."
> "It was moving fast then," muttered Aragorn, "and not with the wind."



_What_, do you think, was moving fast, and not with the wind? Is it indeed a wisp of thin cloud (Aragorn doesn't think so)? Is it a flock of crebain (a regiment of which had earlier passed north over the Fellowship; the passage above does not say in which direction "it" was moving)? Is it a winged Nazgul (who, we learn in The Two Towers, had not yet been permitted to cross west over the Anduin)?


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## Gamil Zirak (Jun 8, 2004)

The winged Nazgul were not allowed to go west over the Great River or the Nazgul were not? If it is the Nazgul, it would be hard for them to chase after hobbits in the Shire and in the wildernes east of the Misty Mountains.

My guess is a winged Nazgul. There were several times that one flew over high like a shadow and the fellowship (or what was left of them) felt it. Right after Pippin peaks into the Palantir is one of those moments.


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## Saermegil (Jun 8, 2004)

I had never thought about that. I had always taken for granted that it was a Nazgul.


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## Maeglin (Jun 8, 2004)

It was the balrog flying high above their heads! It flew out of Moria just to get some fresh air! No, wait, could Balrogs fly or couldn't they?! hahahaha I'm sorry I just couldn't resist, Balrogs flying is another argument. 

Anyway, since it doesn't seem to be able to be the Nazgul, I would assume that it is another flock of crebain, though that doesn't explain the cold darkness......


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## 33Peregrin (Jun 8, 2004)

That is so cool- I just read that today, in The Ring goes South. Just today! When I was reading it, I just thought it was a Nazgul- without thinking much. I've always thought Nazgul, but I suppose it could have been crebain.


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## Gothmog (Jun 9, 2004)

Perhaps what they felt was not physical. It could have been the 'mental shadow' of the malice of Sauron as he searced the north to try and find out what was being done with the ring.


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## Arthur_Vandelay (Jun 9, 2004)

Gothmog said:


> Perhaps what they felt was not physical. It could have been the 'mental shadow' of the malice of Sauron as he searced the north to try and find out what was being done with the ring.



Doesn't Frodo later experience such a thing on Amon Hen?


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## Inderjit S (Jun 9, 2004)

The corresponding HoME books, show us that the idea of the winged Nazgul was non-existent when Tolkien wrote the passage. Add to that the fact that they could not cross the Anduin at the time. Note that only 8 of the 9 Nazgul are accounted for in the aftermath of the Ford of Bruinen. This could be one of the Nazgul on his way back.

Frodo had the ring on in his encounter with Sauron-don't know what difference that makes but I think it would make a big difference.


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## Gothmog (Jun 9, 2004)

Yes. Frodo did indeed have a much stronger experience of this type of thing on Amon Hen.

If it was the 9th Nazgul on his way back to Mordor then he would have likely been on the ground not in the air. As I recall they had to return to Sauron to get their new mounts.

As for Frodo wearing the Ring on Amon Hen I think this allowed him to know more about what was happening.


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## Gamil Zirak (Jun 9, 2004)

If the Nazgul were not allowed to cross Anduin, how did they make it to the Shire?


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## Gothmog (Jun 9, 2004)

The Nazgul were not allowed to cross the Anduin after they had been given their flying mounts. It would seem that after what happened at the Ford of Bruinen Sauron was holding them back.


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## Inderjit S (Jun 9, 2004)

As far as I know the Nazgul were spirits. They lost their clohtes, which "gave them shape". Therfore I see no barriers to them "flying" back. It would be a lot quicker then going on the land.


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## Gothmog (Jun 9, 2004)

The Nazgúl were not "Spirits" and could not fly. They were Men who were held to Arda and a form of life by the power of the rings they were given and the control of the One Ring.

From The Fellowship of the Ring: The Ring goes south


> 'Eight out of the Nine are accounted for at least,' said Gandalf. 'It is rash to be too sure, yet I think that we may hope now that the Ringwraiths were scattered, and have been obliged to return as best they could to their Master in Mordor, empty and shapeless.
> `If that is so, it will be some time before they can begin the hunt again. Of course the Enemy has other servants, but they will have to journey all the way to the borders of Rivendell before they can pick up our trail. And if we are careful that will be hard to find. But we must delay no longer.'



From The Two Towers: The Palantír


> For Isengard may be ruined, yet he is still safe in Orthanc. So whether he will or no, he will appear a rebel. Yet he rejected us, so as to avoid that very thing! What he will do in such a plight, I cannot guess. He has power still, I think, while in Orthanc, to resist the Nine Riders. He may try to do so. He may try to trap the Nazgúl, *or at least to slay the thing on which it now rides the air. In that case let Rohan look to its horses!*



If they were capable of flight themselves then there would be no need of Rohan to look to its horses if Saruman was able to slay the thing on which the Nazgúl rode.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Jun 9, 2004)

Arthur_Vandelay said:


> From _The Lord of the Rings_, "The Ring Goes South"
> 
> 
> _What_, do you think, was moving fast, and not with the wind? Is it indeed a wisp of thin cloud (Aragorn doesn't think so)? Is it a flock of crebain (a regiment of which had earlier passed north over the Fellowship; the passage above does not say in which direction "it" was moving)? Is it a winged Nazgul (who, we learn in The Two Towers, had not yet been permitted to cross west over the Anduin)?



My impression from reading the book was that it was a Nazgûl.

Barley


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## Inderjit S (Jun 9, 2004)

The Nazgûl were “wraiths”. A “wraith”, is a synonym for “ghost”. 

The “Hunt for the Ring” tells us that;

“The Lord of Morgul therefore led his companions over Anduin, unclad and umounted, and invisible to eyes, and yet a terror to all living things who passed near”

So I do not see, unless it is due to some peculiar technicality how the wraiths are not spirits.

And how do you know that they cannot fly? Can you make such an assertion? As far as I know, Tolkien never commented on the matter in one way or the other. Therefore we do not “know” all of the things that the Nazgûl can or cannot do. Our assertions must be based on things that are mentioned in the book. 

Gandalf is of course a character in Tolkien’s book, not Tolkien himself. He is also fallible. How would he know whether or not the Nazgûl’s spirits could “fly” or not? He didn’t study that area much, and nobody had encountered the Nazgûl enough to make a definitive assertion about their capabilities, whether or not they could fly may have been an ambiguity. It may have been a figure of speech. The Rohhirim were horsemen and so it would have been natural for him to tell them to look to their horses in times of trouble. It may have been more convenient for the Nazgûl to travel on a mount of some sort. They did not have a choice after the flood, but they have had a choice if their mount was shot down by Saruman. The Nazgûl were certainly not physically similar to us, they were pretty anomalous, their laws of psychics would not have matched the laws of physics for incarnates. For example they could not see. Therefore it is entirely possible for the Nazgûl to fly, since they were “spirits”. Did Feanor walk across the sea to Aman? Sprits do not obey our rules, since their rules of incarnates, since they are not psychical beings and if they did obey the rules of incarnates then that would be paradoxical. Therefore I don’t see how it is impossible for the Nazgûl to fly. I don’t want to fastidiously analyse any technicalities about what spirits can or cannot do. But since they had different capabilities from incarnates then things such as “flight” may have been perfectly possible.


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## Gothmog (Jun 9, 2004)

From The Return of the King: The Battle of the Pelennor Fields


> But suddenly he too stumbled forward with a cry of bitter pain, and his stroke went wide, driving into the ground. Merry's sword had stabbed him from behind, shearing through the black mantle, *and passing up beneath the hauberk had pierced the sinew behind his mighty knee.*





> So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dúnedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, *cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.*



These seem to me to be descriptions of an unseen but yet physical body. A body well able to physically move objects and make physical contact with others. As for the disappearance of this body after the blow of Éowyn, I would say that time caught up with it.


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## 33Peregrin (Jun 13, 2004)

OK, a few days ago I posted saying that I had just read that piece of the book that day, and had percieved the 'cloud' to be a Nazgul.

Well, I have been reading on, and now the Company has left Lothlorien in the boats, and are near the Brown Lands, and not yet past the Argonath. But here again a dread falls upon the fellowship:


> Even as he (Legolas) did so, a dark shape, like a cloud and yet not a cloud, for it moved far more swiftly, came out of the blackness in the South, and sped towards the Company, blotting out all light as it approached. Soon it appeared as a great winged creature, blacker than the pits in the night. Fierce voices rose up to greet it from accross the water. Frodo felt a sudden chill running through him and clutching at his heart; there was a deadly cold, like the memory of an old wound, in his shoulder. He crouched down as if to hide.



So I definitely thought 'Nazgul' here, and didn't everyone else once they had read the books already before? It is a winged creature, and brought pain to Frodo's old shoulder wound. I just came to this part today.

But what I really want to say to this is that it is part of what makes me say the earlier bit was also a Nazgul. Both are percieved as a wisp of cloud, and bring a feeling dread upon the fellowship.

So I guess what I want to ask is, did everyone else at least think that this part in The Great River was a Nazgul? And what would they say in comparing it to the part earlier, the other cloud, before Moria?


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## HLGStrider (Jun 20, 2004)

I thought it was a Nazgul. . .and I still would like to think it was.


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## HLGStrider (Jun 21, 2004)

*More in depth*

I sort of just posted to mark my place so I could get back to this later last night. . .I was in a hurry to get off. . .sort of tired and all that. . .anyway. . .

As I said, I always assumed it was a Nazgul, but upon reading Arthur's HoME quote about those not having crossed over yet, I immediately went to the theory espoused by Inder. It is the logical next step that it is a fleeing Nazgul taking the long way home.

. . .and in return I offer a possible explanation which also would explain some of the Wraiths' fear of fire and water.

Is it at all possible that Wraiths, while immortal, can be _temporarily_ killed by certain things? That what is refered to as dismounted and uncloaked is something a bit more serious than wondering around without a lift in the nude? (That's quite a picture. . .like the scene in _Lover Come Back_ where Doris Day leaves Rock Hudson on the beach without his clothes and he hitch hikes back to town in a borrowed mink coat)

Could this uncloaking result in losing the ability to touch, move things, or weild a blade, turning the Wraith into more of a spirit or whisp, still able to inflict fear and black breath but not physically the objects about it? 

This would explain what the Wraiths feared from fire and water. While not fatal to them, it would be an incredible inconvenience. I also believe it would be hard to do, near impossible. . .

If so, could this have been what was left of one? Discloaked and pushed into a thin whisp before going home to receive shape and strength?


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## Inderjit S (Jun 29, 2004)

> Is it at all possible that Wraiths, while immortal, can be temporarily killed by certain things? That what is refered to as dismounted and uncloaked is something a bit more serious than wondering around without a lift in the nude



Never though of the "temporary death" idea-it is a good one and it would also over-ride Gotmog's quote from the Pellenor Fields scene. So the wraiths could "die" i.e lose their form but re-gain their form, eventually.


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## Aglarband (Jun 29, 2004)

It simply had to be a Nazgul. Nothing else makes much sense.

In tFOtR Legolas shoots down a Nazgul's mount, this is adding to Peregrin's post.



> ...He crouched down ,as if to hide
> SUddenly the great bow of Lorien sang. Shrill went the arrow fro mthe elven-string. Frodo looked up. Almost aboce him the *winged shape* swerved. There was a harsh croaking scream, as it fell out of the air, vanihsing down into the gloom of the eastern shore.



Definatly a Nazgul, having a very distinct discription. With these vastly similar effects it is easy to assume they are both Nazgul.

Also looking at the time from the uncloaking of the Nazgul and when hte Fellowship set out makes this very much likely to occur. After all, Gandalf and the Rohan army felt its presence in tTT.


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## Inderjit S (Jun 29, 2004)

I would also like the point out that the scene in which Aragorn senses the wisp of cloud and the Pellenor Fields scene were written some time apart-and so Tolkien may not have have been sure what the Wraiths were at the time and the passage went unrevised, because as Tolkien says, some anamolies still existed in the book itself.


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## Heathertoes (Jul 1, 2004)

Inderjit S said:


> Tolkien may not have have been sure what the Wraiths were at the time and the passage went unrevised, because as Tolkien says, some anamolies still existed in the book itself.


I think that's right. Tolkien sometimes got ideas and put them in without really knowing all about them. In one of the HoME books Christopher Tokien admits that JRR never really came up with a decent explanation for the Nazguls' fear of water, or how they even got to the Shire if they couldn't cross unbridged rivers.


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## Inderjit S (Jul 1, 2004)

> I think that's right. Tolkien sometimes got ideas and put them in without really knowing all about them. In one of the HoME books Christopher Tokien admits that JRR never really came up with a decent explanation for the Nazguls' fear of water, or how they even got to the Shire if they couldn't cross unbridged rivers.



In one of Tolkien's letters he states that he is liable to make mistakes because he is just a translator. 

I think you are talking about the passage from 'The Hunt For The Ring' (U.T) in which Tolkien states that all but the Witch-King would not cross water except in dire need.


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## Heathertoes (Jul 1, 2004)

I've just found a bit in The Return of the Shadow (HoME 6) in a draft version of 'The Ring Goes South':
"Suddenly he [Frodo] saw or felt a shadow pass over the stars - as if they faded and flashed out again. He shivered.
'Did you see anything?' he said to Gandalf, who was just in front.
'No, but I felt it, whatever it was,' said the wizard. 'It may be nothing, just a wisp of thin cloud.' It did not sound as if he thought much of his own explanation."

Christopher Tolkien has added a note:
"This incident was retained in FR, but is not explained. The winged Nazgul had not yet crossed the river."

So there you go. It seems that neither JRR or Christopher Tolkien can explain it.


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