# Elvish Skin Colour



## ZehnWaters (Sep 13, 2022)

I'm not inclined to bring up contentious topics but I wish for feed back.

I always assumed Elves (and Dwarves, while we're on the topic) would be, largely, like their human counterparts (i.e. dark in regions humans were dark and lighter-skinned where humans were likewise). The only hole in this belief, however (as pointed out to me): Elves, being immortal, wouldn't evolve like humans. What's more, they're less affected by the climate (as we see when Legolas prances around in light clothing in a snow storm). I honestly have no answer to this save that they may have started out a variety of colours. But, then, why were all of the Noldor "fair-skinned" (except ruddy Mahtan, apparently)?

I know Tolkien scholar Michael Martinez argued strongly that Elves could be any colour but I'm not finding any passages of Elves being dark-skinned (though there are none that say they CAN'T be either).

I heard somewhere that the Easterlings of Beleriand called the Elves they knew "white fiends" but I cannot find a reference for that. This would still play into my own assumptions, however (leaving almost all Avari and many Silvan out of this conception).

Eöl is named "dark elf" but no specification on WHY (beyond, perhaps, his demeanor).

If anyone has any other passages or thought I'd appreciate them.


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## Ealdwyn (Sep 13, 2022)

There is no evolution in ME, it's entirely creationist. For dark and light skin/hair/eyes to evolve you need the influence of sunlight, but the Elves were made long before the sun was created so that can't possibly be a factor in skin/hair/eye colour. The Elves are as they were made by Eru.

There's not much on the hair/eye/skin colour of the Elves. The Vanyar were almost entirely blond, the Noldor and Teleri mostly had dark hair and grey eyes, some Telerin elves had silver hair, and a few Noldorin elves had red hair. Skin color is never described specifically, as far as I can recall (???). The word “fair” is used a lot, but we can’t say for certain whether Tolkien was talking about skin colour or saying that they were beautiful. There are a few elves that are described as being “fair-skinned”. In HoME, Maeglin is described as “swart” or “swarthy”, but in the published Silmarillion it’s said that “his skin was white.”

It’s said of the people of Beor that “they could not easily be distinguished from the Eldar.” But it's also said that the people of Beor were “less fair in skin, some indeed being swarthy.” This is suggesting that the Elves were also “less fair in skin”, though this isn’t really supported anywhere else that I'm aware of(???)


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 13, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> In HoME, Maeglin is described as “swart” or “swarthy”...


He was? Where?


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## Ealdwyn (Sep 13, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> He was? Where?


Book of Lost Tales, I think. But I'd have to check

EDIT:
Book of Lost Tales II, Fall of Gondolin, p165 - I cant be bothered typing it out but here's a pic:


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 13, 2022)

A'ight. I haven't read all of HoME, especially BoLT.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 13, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> The word “fair” is used a lot


Thomas, Lord "Fairfax", apparently didn't live up to the family name. 😄


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## Elassar (Sep 13, 2022)

The more diverse approach in rings of power with characters like arondir but I don't think the professor would have imagined that.


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## Tar-Elenion (Sep 13, 2022)

Meglin (which eventually became Maeglin) was described as swart, in BolT. It was also rumoured he had orc-blood.
Tolkien later changed his name and he was notably white:
"He was tall and black-haired; his eyes were dark, yet bright and keen as the eyes of the Noldor, and his skin was white."
Silm, Of Maeglin

Tolkien describes his Elves as fair of skin, pale, or white. And a few as "ruddy":
"Carnistir ‘red-face’ - he was dark (brown) haired, but had the ruddy complexion of his mother."
PoMe, Shibboleth of Feanor

Other than this early iteration of Maeglin, there are no Elves that I have been able to find described as swarthy or of dark skin.


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## Elassar (Sep 13, 2022)

Eol his farther?


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## Annatar (Sep 13, 2022)

The first Elves (and thus all Elven ancestors) were born in Cuiviénen. This is approximately on the latitude of Lorien:






In terms of latitude, a comparatively northern country, as you can see here.

Tolkien himself gave a few indications of how to interpret his maps as far as latitude is concerned. Here are two quotes that I found in a hurry:



> “Hobbiton is assumed to be approx at latitude of Oxford,” he wrote. “Minas Tirith is about latitude of Ravenna (but is 900 miles east of Hobbiton more near Belgrade)





> Tolkien at least compares his ‘Old World’ with Europe: “The action of the story takes place in the North-West of ‘Middle-earth’, equivalent in latitude to the coastlands of Europe and the north shores of the Mediterranean (…) If Hobbiton and Rivendell are taken (as intended) to be about the latitude of Oxford, then Minas Tirith, 600 miles south, is at about the latitude of Florence. The Mouths of Anduin and the ancient city of Pelargir are at about the latitude of ancient Troy.”


So, if we assume that the climate from the latitude of Cuiviénen is comparable to our world, and if we further assume that Tolkien, as he himself said, wanted to create a mythology for England and used Norse and Celtic myths as a source of inspiration, the skin color of the original Elves is white.



ZehnWaters said:


> Eöl is named "dark elf" but no specification on WHY







The Moriquendi are called Dark Elves, because they have never seen the Light of Aman. This has nothing to do with skin color - unlike Dungeons & Dragons with Drizzt Do'Urden and so on.



Ealdwyn said:


> For dark and light skin/hair/eyes to evolve you need the influence of sunlight, but the Elves were made long before the sun was created


In this respect it is also interesting that the Elven cities in Valinor as well as Numenor are located relatively close to the equator, but the descriptions of the landscape point more towards Britain or Europe. Definitely a temperate climate, not too hot in summer and not too cold in winter.
However, since before the fall of Numenor the world was known to be a disc and the climate was obviously also shaped by the Valar and Maiar, this does not matter. The actual latitude, at least in these western regions, obviously does not play as big a role as one might otherwise think.
On the other hand, the people of Far-Harad are described as having black skin. And this was probably already the case before the change of the world.
I would assume that from Tolkien's perspective in the mentioned, western countries an optimal climate prevailed, while it was much too hot on the same latitude in Middle-earth, so that there among other things also deserts developed - probably because there Melkor had provided accordingly for it. But this is only my personal interpretation.

So it's clear that there are some contradictions: In Middle-earth, as far as latitudes are concerned, our real climate seems to apply more, in contrast to Valinor and Numenor - however you may explain that. (May it be a battle of influence between Valar vs. Morgoth vs. nature...)



Ealdwyn said:


> Maeglin is described as “swart” or “swarthy”


It seems to me that in Tolkien's works, most people who are not completely well-meaning or seem to have some sort of lower status are also visually described as darker. This is also true for the Easterlings and (Near-)Haradrim.
Quite a few therefore accuse Tolkien of a certain kind of racism or chauvinism, but I see it more as a kind of imagery. Even the Dunlendings, who are clearly Celtic-inspired and therefore white, are described by Tolkien as "dark-skinned" or of darker complexion - but always in relation to the very light Rohirrim.
(Also the Welsh, to which he possibly referred according to some authors, actually had partly a darker skin tone? Well, this is still a mystery for me, since one associates especially the Celts as very light-skinned, too.)
But also some Edain are described this way, and also the Harfoots as "browner" compared to the other Hobbits.
But after some research I'm pretty sure that with "swarthy" he meant something like a Mediterranean or sun-induced tan. The Harfoots were probably, like Sam, more of the working class that was out in the fields all day, while the Fallohides were more of the posh couch potatoes etc.

In any case, if you do a bit of research and thought, it becomes clear that true dark skin color only becomes the standard for the inhabitants of Far-Harad (and even further south). There may have been some blacks in Near-Harad, but there the natural skin color for the majority would be comparable to the more light brown North Africans on the Mediterranean and people from the Middle East. Or maybe even partly lighter, if there had been mixtures with the King's Men or Dark Numenorians, as for example in Umbar.

But to come back to the Elves: Theoretically, however, from my point of view, it is possible that some Avari migrated from Cuiviénen to the hot south (instead of the west) very early on and thus developed a really dark skin color (i.e. beyond suntan) over time. However, these do not play a role in Tolkien's stories, but could be material for fan fiction. (RoP-Arondir could have been one, but this is not explained in any way in the series).


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## Tar-Elenion (Sep 13, 2022)

Elassar said:


> Eol his farther?


Not originally (i.e. Book of Lost Tales). That is a later development (off hand, and my memory fails more of late, Eol becomes his father in the 'Earliest Silmarillion').



ZehnWaters said:


> I heard somewhere that the Easterlings of Beleriand called the Elves they knew "white fiends" but I cannot find a reference for that. This would still play into my own assumptions, however (leaving almost all Avari and many Silvan out of this conception).


Unfinished Tales, Of Tuor:
"But they dared not yet lay hands on the Lady of Dor-lómin, or thrust her from her house; for the word ran among them that she was perilous, and a witch who had dealings with the white-fiends: for so they named the Elves, hating them, but fearing them more"


ZehnWaters said:


> Eöl is named "dark elf" but no specification on WHY (beyond, perhaps, his demeanor).
> 
> If anyone has any other passages or thought I'd appreciate them.


He is of the Moriquendi (not having seen the light of the Two Trees) and avoids being out in the sun to boot...


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## Elthir (Sep 13, 2022)

To stay within author published text for a moment:

_Appendix F_ describes the Eldar as: " . . . tall, fair of skin and grey-eyed, though their locks were dark save in the golden house of Finarfin" [I'm aware that JRRT originally wrote this about the Noldor, but nonetheless he revised the description for publication, where it refers to the Eldar, and it remains so worded in the Second Edition. Christopher Tolkien's objection, with respect to the mostly golden or yellow-haired Vanyar, is noted too].

Technically [or arguably at least] this does not refer to the Silvan Elves though -- as they are not Eldar [West-Elves] according to _The Lord of the Rings_ [again, _posthumously published stuff aside_ here], but are East-Elves rather.

In any case, according to _The Hobbit_, it seems that the Wood Elves: "lingered in the twilight of our Sun and Moon but loved the stars best" -- they wandered in forests, dwelt most often by the edges of the woods -- "from which they could escape at times to hunt, or to ride and run over the open lands by moonlight or starlight"  -- and after the coming of Men "they took ever more and more to the gloaming and the dusk."

Sun-wise, interpret as you like for these Quendi 

And we know of a migration of Elves from Lorien to what would become known as Dol Amroth.

In posthumously published sources, we meet the Avari for example -- and if I recall correctly, in _Quendi And Eldar_ Tolkien relates a bit about some of them eventually moving west [see also _Of Dwarves And Men_, note 62, and the text concerned] and in Q&E, it's noted that the Avarin form _Penni_ is cited
as coming from the Wood Elven speech of the Anduin Vale.

Anyway, I can't recall (at the moment) any text that relates or suggests all possible Avarin migrations.


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 14, 2022)

Tar-Elenion said:


> Unfinished Tales, Of Tuor:
> "But they dared not yet lay hands on the Lady of Dor-lómin, or thrust her from her house; for the word ran among them that she was perilous, and a witch who had dealings with the white-fiends: for so they named the Elves, hating them, but fearing them more"


Oh my gosh, I remember that passage now.



Elthir said:


> In posthumously published sources, we meet the Avari for example -- and if I recall correctly, in _Quendi And Eldar_ Tolkien relates a bit about some of them eventually moving west [see also _Of Dwarves And Men_, note 62, and the text concerned] and in Q&E, it's noted that the Avarin form _Penni_ is cited
> as coming from the Wood Elven speech of the Anduin Vale.


I always felt the Avarin form Kinn-Lai sounded vaguely Asian but that could just be to my cultural biases.

So I guess he doesn't really address it all that much which leaves us...nowhere I suppose. Except the Noldor who were white with some of them being extra white?



Elassar said:


> The more diverse approach in rings of power with characters like arondir but I don't think the professor would have imagined that.


Not for the ones in the West, no. He doesn't really talk about the Avari who ended up elsewhere.


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## Elassar (Sep 14, 2022)

He mentions them regularly as they were made to orcs by Morgoth


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 14, 2022)

Annatar said:


> The first Elves (and thus all Elven ancestors) were born in Cuiviénen. This is approximately on the latitude of Lorien:
> 
> In terms of latitude, a comparatively northern country, as you can see here.


To be fair, this doesn't make the land where men awoke much further south yet we know the Men developed into the various races we have today by at least the Third Age.


Annatar said:


> “Minas Tirith is about latitude of Ravenna...about the latitude of Florence


Mediterranean, as I always suspected by his description of the Rangers of Ithilien.


Annatar said:


> as he himself said, wanted to create a mythology for England...


I feel like that was more where it started when he was making the Book of Lost Tales but it moved past that as time went on.


Annatar said:


> The Moriquendi are called Dark Elves, because they have never seen the Light of Aman.


Yeah, but the Sindar called him that too...


Annatar said:


> In this respect it is also interesting that the Elven cities in Valinor as well as Numenor are located relatively close to the equator, but the descriptions of the landscape point more towards Britain or Europe. Definitely a temperate climate, not too hot in summer and not too cold in winter.


Yeah, on the equator is should be blazing hot almost year 'round. I originally thought it odd they had so many pine trees until I learned that, yes, coniferous trees do grow on the equator (and I really should have realized that sooner).


Annatar said:


> However, since before the fall of Numenor the world was known to be a disc and the climate was obviously also shaped by the Valar and Maiar, this does not matter. The actual latitude, at least in these western regions, obviously does not play as big a role as one might otherwise think.
> On the other hand, the people of Far-Harad are described as having black skin. And this was probably already the case before the change of the world.
> I would assume that from Tolkien's perspective in the mentioned, western countries an optimal climate prevailed, while it was much too hot on the same latitude in Middle-earth, so that there among other things also deserts developed - probably because there Melkor had provided accordingly for it. But this is only my personal interpretation.
> 
> So it's clear that there are some contradictions: In Middle-earth, as far as latitudes are concerned, our real climate seems to apply more, in contrast to Valinor and Numenor - however you may explain that. (May it be a battle of influence between Valar vs. Morgoth vs. nature...)


Maybe it had to do with Númenor's proximity to Valinor?


Annatar said:


> But also some Edain are described this way, and also the Harfoots as "browner" compared to the other Hobbits. But after some research I'm pretty sure that with "swarthy" he meant something like a Mediterranean or sun-induced tan. The Harfoots were probably, like Sam, more of the working class that was out in the fields all day, while the Fallohides were more of the posh couch potatoes etc.


"I can't work in the garden! I'm WRITING!".


Annatar said:


> In any case, if you do a bit of research and thought, it becomes clear that true dark skin color only becomes the standard for the inhabitants of Far-Harad (and even further south). There may have been some blacks in Near-Harad, but there the natural skin color for the majority would be comparable to the more light brown North Africans on the Mediterranean and people from the Middle East. Or maybe even partly lighter, if there had been mixtures with the King's Men or Dark Numenorians, as for example in Umbar.


So largely as I'd assumed: it mimics our own world (save, perhaps, Númenor).


Annatar said:


> (RoP-Arondir could have been one, but this is not explained in any way in the series).


Arondir is expressly stated in promotional material as being a Silvan elf from Beleriand (so...presumably one of the Laegrim?) and he's watching over men in...Nurn I guess, who once served Morgoth (at this point some 3000ish years later). Why are their elves in Nurn? Beats me. Are these the "Easterlings" who served Morgoth in the wars of Beleriand? If so, why do they have strangely modern British names? Why are they living in Nurn? I dunno, the lore in this show is all over the place.



Elassar said:


> He mentions them regularly as they were made to orcs by Morgoth


Potentially. He also toyed with the idea of them being men, or a blended race. Some may have even been the form lesser Maia took (Boldogs). What's more, even when they WERE thought of as being descended from Elves, they were taken before the sundering of the kindreds. Regardless, they weren't Elves anymore.



Tar-Elenion said:


> Not originally (i.e. Book of Lost Tales). That is a later development (off hand, and my memory fails more of late, Eol becomes his father in the 'Earliest Silmarillion').


Side-note, I'm actually really fond of the idea Tolkien considered of Eöl being a Tatyarin Avari elf.


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## Annatar (Sep 14, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> Yeah, but the Sindar called him that too...


Perhaps because the Sindar would rather not call themselves so, but as Grey-Elves.


ZehnWaters said:


> Maybe it had to do with Númenor's proximity to Valinor?


In addition, Numenor was lifted out of the sea and formed by the Valar.


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## Tuor Cassidy (Oct 1, 2022)

To put it simply. Tolkien’s Middle Earth is a large island. I.e England. Tol Eressea and Valinor were at one point all close by and are all creations of his mind but with thoughts of his homeland which he wanted to create a mythology exclusively for! He was very patriotic as we all know so he thought the mythology of his “own island” lacking. He used Finnish, Celtic and Nordic inspiration for his languages as well as his imagined peoples. That being said I see nothing written to indicate anything but that Elves were very light skinned as they had blond, blue and silver hair! He imagined them as “fair” fair skinned means you better put some sun block on for Elf Beach Day!
Dark Elves are those who either did not or chose not to see the light of the trees! Early Elves preferred the light of the stars to which they first saw upon their awakening. So Dark Elves has nothing to do with skin tone! Maeglin, son of Eol, was dark as he was sinister like his father! Eol also preferred the night and was even chastised by Curufin for that fact!
Tolkien does write that he was inspired by those of the Jewish race for his dwarves and that he admired that race of people greatly! In his writings he clearly has great affinity for his dwarves and their hardness!
Elves are white. Dwarves are Jewish. Orcs are made in mockery of Eru’s creation of Elves. Which is written in the Silmarillion as maybe the most vile deed of Morgoth against Eru! 

I think the most vile deed of Morgoth was creating the Rings of Power series!


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 1, 2022)

Tuor Cassidy said:


> To put it simply. Tolkien’s Middle Earth is a large island. I.e England. Tol Eressea and Valinor were at one point all close by and are all creations of his mind but with thoughts of his homeland which he wanted to create a mythology exclusively for! He was very patriotic as we all know so he thought the mythology of his “own island” lacking. He used Finnish, Celtic and Nordic inspiration for his languages as well as his imagined peoples.


True, but we also know the Southrons and Easterlings weren't based on European cultures. So his world was still supposed to mimic the real world. In the original Hobbit he even mentioned the Gobi desert.


Tuor Cassidy said:


> That being said I see nothing written to indicate anything but that Elves were very light skinned as they had blond, blue and silver hair!


Blue hair?


Tuor Cassidy said:


> He imagined them as “fair” fair skinned means you better put some sun block on for Elf Beach Day!
> Dark Elves are those who either did not or chose not to see the light of the trees! Early Elves preferred the light of the stars to which they first saw upon their awakening. So Dark Elves has nothing to do with skin tone! Maeglin, son of Eol, was dark as he was sinister like his father! Eol also preferred the night and was even chastised by Curufin for that fact!
> Tolkien does write that he was inspired by those of the Jewish race for his dwarves and that he admired that race of people greatly! In his writings he clearly has great affinity for his dwarves and their hardness!
> Elves are white.


To be fair, he never really describes WHAT the Avari could look like. He only describes the ones in the Northwest of Middle-Earth. I've never had issues with the Avari or Dwarves (of other houses) having different skin colours for that reason. I just assumed they'd look akin to their human counterparts.

We also know some of the elves are described as "ruddy" (i.e. Mahtan, Caranthir).


Tuor Cassidy said:


> Dwarves are Jewish.


There are Jews of multiple ethnicities.


Tuor Cassidy said:


> Orcs are made in mockery of Eru’s creation of Elves. Which is written in the Silmarillion as maybe the most vile deed of Morgoth against Eru!


To be fair, Tolkien had a lot of different thoughts on the origins of Orcs. Orc-shaped Maiar, corrupted elves, corrupted humans, or a mix thereof.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 1, 2022)

Tuor Cassidy said:


> Dwarves are Jewish.


His description is a little more nuanced:


> I do think of the 'Dwarves' like Jews: at once native and alien in their habitations, speaking the languages of the country, but with an accent due their own private tongue. . . . .


Letter 176 (Whether he continued on the subject, I don't know, as Carpenter left out whatever followed)

Personally, on reading _The Hobbit_, I pictured them as stereotypical Scotsmen. Apparently, PJ agreed. 😄


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## Tuor Cassidy (Oct 1, 2022)

I’m simply stating what inspired his make up of Dwarves. It is written. It is also written in the Silmarillion “thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom afterwards were the bitterest foes. Tolkien had evolving thoughts on many things. To keep from going insane of all the changes of thought expressed in HOME, I stick to the original Silmarillion and Tolkien’s letters for reference!


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 1, 2022)

Tuor Cassidy said:


> I’m simply stating what inspired his make up of Dwarves. It is written. It is also written in the Silmarillion “thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom afterwards were the bitterest foes. Tolkien had evolving thoughts on many things. To keep from going insane of all the changes of thought expressed in HOME, I stick to the original Silmarillion and Tolkien’s letters for reference!


The published Silmarillion was what Christopher cobbled together, though. JRR didn't publish it.


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## Tuor Cassidy (Oct 1, 2022)

Well if PJ thinks so! Well that’s it I guess...never mind what the author had in mind. I did say “to put it simply” thus allowing for less nuance


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 1, 2022)

Tuor Cassidy said:


> I’m simply stating what inspired his make up of Dwarves.


He was inspired by a number of sources, especially the Eddas and Icelandic sagas, for Dwarves.

Edit: I didn't say PJ -- or I-- were right. 😃


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## Tuor Cassidy (Oct 1, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> The published Silmarillion was what Christopher cobbled together, though. JRR didn't publish it.


So we can’t treat it as a work of Tolkien? That’s really kind of sacrilegious as it’s out together by Christopher but all are the words of JRRT. And if we are now trusting in PJ over Christopher Tolkien as editor, then I am truly dumbfounded. Wow


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 1, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> He was inspired by a number of sources, especially the Eddas and Icelandic sagas, for Dwarves.
> 
> Edit: I didn't say PJ -- or I-- were right. 😃


It's true, Dwarves do appear in Scandinavian mythology. It's likely a mix of both (plus more sources).


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 1, 2022)

Tuor Cassidy said:


> And if we are now trusting in PJ over Christopher Tolkien as editor,


Is anyone doing that here? 😳


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 1, 2022)

Tuor Cassidy said:


> So we can’t treat it as a work of Tolkien? That’s really kind of sacrilegious as it’s out together by Christopher but all are the words of JRRT. And if we are now trusting in PJ over Christopher Tolkien as editor, then I am truly dumbfounded. Wow


 I never said I trusted PJ at all.

In regards to the published Silmarillion, even Christopher has admitted that some of his choices in it were incorrect (Orodreth and Gil-Galad's parentage, for instance). One must simply look at JRR's works and notes as a whole. As you stated, JRR's thoughts weren't ever complete on it.


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## Tuor Cassidy (Oct 1, 2022)

Also the Hobbit was originally an isolated children’s story that JRRT had to somehow patch together with LOTR so as to keep continuity as he wanted to publish the Silmarillion and the publishers wanted more hobbits! His true legandarium IS the Silmarillion and LOTR... and the LOTR only had Hobbits to satisfy public demand!

Just confused as to why PJ even came into this conversation. You mentioned his views on the ethnicity of dwarves.... he also has Elves with pointed ears! another Fantasy stereo type taken up by Hollywood! Tolkien has stated many times that men and Elves are biologically the same. I just go by what’s written not by what’s seen.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 1, 2022)

Elves -- and even Hobbits -- _do _have pointed ears, as you no doubt know from his _Letters. _🙂


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## Ent (Oct 1, 2022)

Tuor Cassidy said:


> breed the hideous race of orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves



Yes, this whole issue of "whence came the Orcs" is a difficult one.

Made all the more complex by the statement here, that many interpret to mean "he made them FROM the Elves." But that is not what it says.
That he "bred" the Orcs is clear. What he bred them from is not necessarily so clear.
And whatever he bred them from, they have to have been bred WITH something else. So the sources are, at best, multiple. 

And so... 'the beat goes on".


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 1, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Elves -- and even Hobbits -- _do _have pointed ears, as you no doubt know from his _Letters. 🙂_


Don't tell that to Tolkien scholar Michael Martinez!



The Enting said:


> And so... 'the beat goes on".


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## Tuor Cassidy (Oct 1, 2022)

I am referring to those letters. #153-draft to Peter Hastings

#144-“elves is a translation, not perhaps now very suitable but originally good enough, of Quendi. They are represented as a race similar appearance (and more so the further back) to men, and in former days of the same stature. I will not here go into the differences from men but I will suppose that the Quendi are in fact in these histories VERY LITTLE AKIN to the Elves and fairies of Europe: and if I were to pressed to rationalize, I should say that they represent the enhanced aesthetic and creative faculties, greater beauty and longer life, and nobility”

The elves and fairies of Europe were those that Tolkien desperately wanted to segregate his creation from and even in Alan Lee’s artwork (whom I feel just nails it every time in terms of recreating in art the words of Tolkien) even has Luthien with normal ears. 
If there is another letter stating otherwise, please refer to it as I would always like to know all the references. I have not memorized every word on this matter but I have read far more indicating the similarities to men than to that of the differences!
So if he has written explicitly that his elves have distinguished pointed ears, I would really like to know!


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 1, 2022)

OK, here's one (he's discussing possible illustrations for _The Hobbit_):


> I picture a fairly human figure, not a kind of 'fairy' rabbit as some of my British reviewers seem to fancy: fattish in the stomach, shortish in the leg. A round, jovial face; *ears only slightly pointed and 'elvish'*; hair short and curling (brown).


Letter 27

If further confirmation is required, there's his own drawing of Bilbo:


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## Elthir (Oct 1, 2022)

Tuor Cassidy said:


> So if he has written explicitly that his *elves* have distinguished pointed ears, I would really like to know!



More pointed and leaf-shaped than humans -- hails from an *early-ish*, posthumously published text, an abandoned linguistic text called _Etymologies _[see entires LAS1, LAS2]

*But* post _Lord of the Rings_, in my opinion Tolkien essentially re-wrote this famous entry, which does not include the formerly definitive statement. JRRT's later thoughts on the Elvish bases LAS and SLAS, were published in _Words, Phrases and Passages_, in a book titled Parma Eldalamberon.

To state it briefly. I think Tolkien left the matter open, leaving only a linguistic hint that his Eldar *might* have had more pointed and leaf-shaped ears than humans.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 1, 2022)

Here's a discussion, giving arguments both pro and con:





Do the Elves in Tolkien's stories have pointed ears?: Frequently Unanswered Question







tolkien.slimy.com


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## Elthir (Oct 1, 2022)

But does the linked discussion include_ Parma Eldalamberon_ 17 and the newer LAS, SLAS entries?

🐾


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 1, 2022)

I don't know.


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## Ent (Oct 1, 2022)

Suggestion: Read it and see. 😁


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## Tuor Cassidy (Oct 1, 2022)

Thank you SES, I agree with that terms of the hobbits and I did notice that pic as well as that letter. It does ring a bell now. Thank you for that. But also explains the bombastic nature of Hollywood, he states “only slightly pointed. And “elvish” I think he is referring the general view of Elvish characters, not necessarily his form of Elf. 
the adaptations have these large monstrosities for ears which look ridiculous. It’s a good argument as one can draw from many references! I feel strongly that his “elves were originally akin to men in all ways except for their art, eyes and the fact they are coeval with Arda. It is mentioned also that the main difference was the gift to men from Illuvatar that was death and reasons forever unknown to the Eldar. We both can agree that as far as Tolkien was concerned Elves and Men were very much akin!
We kinda got off topic but so be it!


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## Elthir (Oct 1, 2022)

The linked discussion is too long to re-read, and SES brought it up 

*If* my *memory* is correct, it doesn't, being written before PE 17 was published.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 1, 2022)

Elthir said:


> too long


I'd be the first to admit he probably didn't have something like this in mind!


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## Tuor Cassidy (Oct 1, 2022)

That essay leans more towards Elves having normal ears than not. Like I said we got off topic, the thread asks about skin. 
Tolkien wrote most of his work 75-105 years ago. His Elves were light skinned in every sense. If people (not saying people in here, just people in general) have a problem with that. You don’t have to read or like Tolkien but don’t make up narratives and characters to suit a more PC friendly attitude. He wrote what he wrote and how he wanted it written. Can’t be changed now. Go read The Golden Compass if Tolkien offends you! Another author who condemns Tolkien post mortem.


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## Elthir (Oct 1, 2022)

Tuor Cassidy said:


> That essay leans more towards Elves having normal ears than not.



Actually, the linked essay is not as long as I thought, and I think it's a bit out of date [the word "Human" in Etymologies has since been clarified, for example], as I see no reference or quotes regarding the new information from PE17. Which is . . .



> Q lasse "leaf" (S las); pl. lassi (S lais). It is only applied to certain kinds of leaves, especially those of trees, and would not e.g. be used of leaf of a hyacinth (linque). It is thus possibly related to LAS "listen", and S-LAS stem of Elvish words for "ear"; Q hlas, dual hlaru. Sindarin dual lhaw, singular lhewig.
> 
> lasse "leaf". *JRRT*, Words, Phrases and Passages



Obviously the definitive, comparative statement to human ears [in the quote from the essay] does *not* appear in this later look at words derived from LAS- and (now) SLAS-.

Maybe Tolkien just didn't think of repeating this detail, or perhaps he wanted the matter to be left more vague. The _'thus possibly related' _bit is still there, but again there's no explicit comparison to Human ears, and no _explicit_ statement describing Quendian ears, in the much later look at these words.

Again, Tolkien might know . . . but *did Tolkien-as-translator know *(want to be definitive)!

*Edit*: the essay also writes:_ "Finally, illustrators, including Pauline Baynes whose work Tolkien praised, have consistently portrayed Tolkien's Elves with pointed ears without any known objections from JRRT or his family."_

Also, we now know that Tolkien was dissatisfied with even some of Pauline Baynes' work, including parts of her depictions of the Fellowship (wherein Legolas' ears cannot be seen in any case), but it appears Tolkien never told the artist about certain negative stuff -- which comments were, if I recall correctly, only posthumously published after the artist herself passed away, or if published while she was still living, were left vague as to which artist JRRT was referring to.

*Point* being [cough], we can't necessarily say Tolkien would have publicly objected to any depictions by P. Baynes about Elvish ears, even if he thought she had got them "wrong" . . . and especially, I'd think, if he'd left the question open.


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## Tuor Cassidy (Oct 1, 2022)

Tolkien, was a fan of Ms. Baynes. For sure! As you mentioned, he had many disagreements of her depictions as well. Alan Lee, Ted Naismith, leading artists who were commissioned by CRT, never depicted the Elves with different ears and CRT was surely as meticulous as his father! (Reason they were so close in mind). The Awakening at Cuivienen has a number of Eldar who look exactly like human in all aspects. Even with a magnifying glass! Alan Lee has many drawings of Luthian as well as Idril, so I think we can all agree that Tolkien thought his Elves as a more of a superhuman race who was at one with the earth and gifted in arts and lore. It’s just in all of the narratives written and along with many letters stating the resemblance of human to Eldar, he never states anything about their ears to the contrary, except where SES pointed out but that was a vague reference to the stereotype of Elf whilst describing a hobbit. They very well have had slightly pointed ears in his mind but I’m talking Elves here and Tolkien never explicitly wrote anything about differences from Elf and human except in types of hair, eyes, height, longevity and artistry, so how someone can take that to be a certainty that Tolkien’s Elves had big pointy ears???

This is a somewhat irresponsible theory. 

Tolkien describes Hobbits in terms of their bellies, hairy feet, bright clothing, and curly hair and attitudes towards others. He never mentions the ears. If it occurs in a letter to a friend or colleague once in a great while, that, to me, is not evidence enough to draw conclusions. He describes Elves differences as they grew asunder and formed the Nolder, Teleri, etc. after the March, but he focuses more on attitudes and linguistics as was his passion as a philologist. 

My point is if we simply go off what he writes in his narratives and overall thoughts of his created world he describes many things but not ears!

Even Carl Hostetter’s new book Nature of Middle Earth which contains nearly everything Tolkien wrote late in his life of the anatomy of Elves all the way down to them being ambidextrous! Still no mention of ears!


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 1, 2022)

The letter I quoted from was to Houghton Mifflin, specifically about possible illustrations for the American edition. Not exactly a private letter to a "friend or colleague". 😀


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## Elthir (Oct 1, 2022)

Tuor Cassidy said:


> Tolkien, was a fan of Ms. Baynes. For sure! As you mentioned, he had many disagreements of her depictions as well. Alan Lee, Ted Naismith, leading artists who were commissioned by CRT, never depicted the Elves with different ears and CRT was surely as meticulous as his father!



I do think there's a "measure of pointedness" that CJRT would react to, but I don't think he would necessarily react if a given "leaf-shaped, _more_ pointed" interpretation [by Lee or anyone], was subtle.

Just my opinion.



Tuor Cassidy said:


> ( . . . ) They very well have had slightly pointed ears in his mind but I’m talking Elves here and Tolkien never explicitly wrote anything about differences from Elf and human except in types of hair, eyes, height, longevity and artistry, so how someone can take that to be a certainty that Tolkien’s Elves had big pointy ears???



Well, technically Tolkien _did_ explicitly write/describe Quendian ears compared to human ears [again, at least at one point in time, in _Etymologies,_ and still noting the entries in PE17] . . .

. . . but no, he never wrote "big pointy ears" in any case -- if that's the part you mean by "somewhat irresponsible theory" that is.

Some things we can _point_ to, because Tolkien published them himself, are the Elvish words _lassi_ and _lhaw _for examples. Thus (JRRT): "It [lasse "leaf"] is thus *possibly* related to LAS "listen", and S-LAS stem of Elvish words for "ear" . . ."

Possibly!


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## Tuor Cassidy (Oct 1, 2022)

Elthir,
You are correct where in that section of HOME, it refers to listening, ear, eavesdropping along with Greenleaf of Gondolin and it also states that “some think this is related to the next and lasse ‘ear’”. Also has compared to humans with a ?

Great point (sorry for the pun) and it made me drag out my books! Always love digging back in for refreshment!
I still think if it was even slightly relevant to Tolkien he would have written it explicitly in either the Hobbit or LOTR and or the life consuming Silmarillion!
We ALL know his attention to Geographic and biological detail, yet the only thing one can find on the topic is in a dictionary note (still somewhat vague) and very possibly him being somewhat pressured to make Elves aesthetically different for American promotional marketing. Tolkien HATED with a fiery passion the works of Disney, but he also (unfairly) associated Disney with America, maybe he was just playing up to the masses as at the end of the day he finally got the LOTR published by succumbing to publishers as he neared retirement and was In fact worried about money. He wouldn’t want HIS elves to look ANYTHING close to a Disney movie! So this is just my opinion in terms of American publishing.
One can only imagine if he got to write what he wanted. A true epic with the Silmarillion and the War of the Rings! It would have been a true magnum opus and we were denied that. Maybe these debates and questions would have been more clearly defined and answered!?? Happy to have those who will still have said debates!!

Excuse me. Greenleaf of Laurelin


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 1, 2022)

Elthir said:


> But does the linked discussion include_ Parma Eldalamberon_ 17 and the newer LAS, SLAS entries?
> 
> 🐾


Are the linguistic journals still available?



Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I'd be the first to admit he probably didn't have something like this in mind!
> View attachment 16180


I was gonna say, you should see what Hylians look like if you think the LotR films have "monstrous" ears.



Tuor Cassidy said:


> One can only imagine if he got to write what he wanted. A true epic with the Silmarillion and the War of the Rings! It would have been a true magnum opus and we were denied that. Maybe these debates and questions would have been more clearly defined and answered!?? Happy to have those who will still have said debates!!


lol I do remember reading, somewhere, about him being overwhelmed with the amount of questions he received. Something about how the botanist wanted to know more about _athelas_ the zoologist wanted to know about the various fictional animals, and so on. Everyone had their pet subject.


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## Ent (Oct 1, 2022)

Tuor Cassidy said:


> Happy to have those who will still have said debates!!


This is the essence of learning and the backbone of TTF..! 
Debates without recrimination and animosity..!
A rare treat, and a rare place indeed.


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## Tuor Cassidy (Oct 1, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> lol I do remember reading, somewhere, about him being overwhelmed with the amount of questions he received. Something about how the botanist wanted to know more about _athelas_ the zoologist wanted to know about the various fictional animals, and so on. Everyone had their pet subject.


Yes! He remarked on how tempting it was becoming a type of “game” to many and how that could be an addiction of sorts to a man like himself. I’m paraphrasing, forgive me!

I’ll say it again... Thank you CRT for all your work in bringing us all of that work that would have possibly been forgotten!


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## Elthir (Oct 1, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> Are the linguistic journals still available?



According to the website E.L.F., all the _Vinyar Tengwar_ issues are available, and some of the Parma Eldalamberon issues (not PE17 though, it seems, unless I missed something). And _Tengwestie_ is online.

I have every VT except for the last one, but only a few PE issues. I snagged up PE17 quickly, as I knew it was gonna sell out quickly.

Edit *E.L.F. *is at: https://elvish.org/


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## Elthir (Oct 2, 2022)

Tuor Cassidy said:


> (. . .) Also has compared to humans with a* ?*



Just to add, with respect to the detail of the question mark [*?*Humans] even HOME is now out of date.
The word has since been clearly enough identified [don't ask me how] as "Human" according to the Editorial Team of _Vinyar Tengwar_ -- who publish Tolkien's linguistic papers (given to them by Christopher Tolkien to do so).


Addenda and Corrigenda to the Etymologies; — Part One And Two — Carl F. Hostetter and Patrick H. Wynne. Vinyar Tengwar 45, 46.


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## Tuor Cassidy (Oct 2, 2022)

Elthir said:


> Just to add, with respect to the detail of the question mark [*?*Humans] even HOME is now out of date.
> The word has since been clearly enough identified [don't ask me how] as "Human" according to the Editorial Team of _Vinyar Tengwar_ -- who publish Tolkien's linguistic papers (given to them by Christopher Tolkien to do so).
> 
> 
> ...


I appreciate the thorough explanations of your mind, Elthir! I think you said it best when you described Tolkien’s poetic nature and that ears to be mentioned would not be worth the bother as compared to the beauty and artistic natures of Elves compared to men. 
I may be wrong in how I am interpreting your statement?
I do disagree with HOME being out of date. Christopher was the last true link we have to understanding the mind of JRRT. Yes, many more essays and interpretations have been published but that is somewhat heresay as it is opinion based. I am just going off of what the Professor himself wrote and his literary executor tried to explain to the bitterest detail! There is no modern Tolkien. The man died in 1973 and with him his secrets that his son did not explain and publish. 
my point is and we may be agreeing and I’m missing it. (I am no scholar) but we can only but interpret what is available and from what is available, there is practically no distinction between the ears of Elves and men. Tolkien describes sooo much of his imagined works in the greatest of detail but when it comes to ears, that one is never explained, at least not with the certainty that Hollywood seems to have regarding the fake plastic ears you could hang a coat on!
It does say that elves have far better hearing than men. So that could be a reason to suppose ears are different as form equals function. But elves can also read thoughts and the sometimes the future and yet their heads are of the same physiology as that of men! We may never know so I stick with what I’ve read in over 21 books containing the work of Tolkien and there is barely anything telling us about ears of Elves so I imagine them as men with superior minds, longevity, beauty and abilities. We will never truly know I suppose.


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## Elthir (Oct 2, 2022)

Tuor Cassidy said:


> I appreciate the thorough explanations of your mind, Elthir! I think you said it best when you described Tolkien’s poetic nature and that ears to be mentioned would not be worth the bother as compared to the beauty and artistic natures of Elves compared to men.



Well, I must apologize again! As I realized that in the midst of my blatherings that Tolkien -- of course -- also had linguistic documents* before* Etymologies, with no Elvish ear description in them -- a detail which didn't exactly help my case, even if some statements could still hold up.

First I edited that in, then I edited my post drastically. I wasn't satisfied with it. You had "liked" it but not responded, and so I thought it was safe for a major edit!

It wasn't. Apologies.


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 2, 2022)

Tuor Cassidy said:


> We will never truly know I suppose.


It's why Tolkien is the historical figure (excluding religious ones) I'd want to have dinner with. "We're making this a twenty course meal; I want as much time as possible with you."


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## The Void (Oct 2, 2022)

I don't know if this will help. But Tolkien based his Elvish races upon the stimuli fact of European races.
Red-haired ('Ranga') and Fair-skinned 'Red' people
Blonde-haired and White-skinned 'White' people
Raven-haired and Pale-skinned 'Grey' people
Brunette-haired and Light-skinned 'Blue' people
...to which 2/3rds of Europe is populated by the Brunette, light-skinned people these days.
So Tolkien's Elves would be based on these four characteristics.


To me, Elves - grew in a world of no Sun, just darkness, stars and the glow of two trees of Gold and Blue light.
Avatar shows people can look pretty neat in true blue. So Elves can be whatever colour they like.


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## Elthir (Oct 2, 2022)

I think a "period of time without a Sun" could be a Mannish myth, confused with the reality of the 
Two Trees.

Of course, that doesn't mean pale people can't exist (noting the Primary World, or "Real" World,
which seems to have had a Sun very early on).


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 2, 2022)

Elthir said:


> I think a "period of time without a Sun" could be a Mannish myth


*covers ears* LALALALALALALA! I refuse to accept the "mannish myth" retcon.


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## Elthir (Oct 3, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> *covers ears* LALALALALALALA! I refuse to accept the "mannish myth" retcon.



*Come into the light* of the Sun before the Elves awoke


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 3, 2022)

Elthir said:


> *Come into the light* of the Sun before the Elves awoke


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## Elthir (Oct 3, 2022)

Resistance is futile. 
You will be assimilated.


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 3, 2022)

Elthir said:


> Resistance is futile.
> You will be assimilated.


Tolkien never published a final version so I get to head-canon it any way I want.


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## Elthir (Oct 3, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> Tolkien never published a final version so I get to head-canon it any way I want.



Of course! But you want the light!

Watch the watch . . . back and forth . . . that's it

. . . relax.

Now, imagine the sun above a round world . . .

. . . you're getting sleepy . . .






. . . the Sun rises . . . and the Elves awaken!


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 3, 2022)

Elthir said:


> . . . the Sun rises . . . and the Elves awaken!


Yes....the sun arises and the Men awaken...There's a terrible tempest...and the world becomes round....


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## Annatar (Oct 3, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I'd be the first to admit he probably didn't have something like this in mind!
> View attachment 16180








I wonder if Tolkien would have assigned this pretty lady to the fauna of Mordor just like her Siamese cat?


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## Elthir (Oct 3, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> There's a terrible tempest...



There is a tempest in me!


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 3, 2022)

Annatar said:


> I wonder if Tolkien would have assigned this pretty lady to the fauna of Mordor just like her Siamese cat?


Nah, that's someone from Hyrule (the land of Legend of Zelda)


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 3, 2022)




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## Elthir (Oct 3, 2022)

By the way, for you not-tennis fans, that was Bjorn Borg.

It was a Star Trek joke, . . . cause the Borg tried to assimilate . . . oh nevermind.


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## Annatar (Oct 3, 2022)

The question of what color the elves' ears are has not yet been conclusively resolved, however this statement has come to my attention:


Tuor Cassidy said:


> Go read The Golden Compass if Tolkien offends you! Another author who condemns Tolkien post mortem.


Do you have some more info and sources on this?
Do I have to burn all my Philip Pullman books now?



Annatar said:


> Do you have some more info and sources on this?


I found something myself, in an interview with a German newspaper. Translated it says:

- Newspaper_: Here also still stands the pub "The Eagle and Child", where Tolkien and Lewis once liked to sit together. It is said that you are not an admirer of these two fantasy heroes._

- Pullman:_ That's no secret. Take Tolkien's "Lord of the Rings," which seems so maddeningly complex, but on closer inspection is of staggering triviality: sure, he was a master at depicting magnificent landscapes and even more magnificent battles. But the story? There are only the good guys and the bad guys. Some want to save the world, others want to take over. This is very simple, the only halfway interesting character is Gollum, otherwise there is yawning boredom._

Well, from my point of view, "His Dark Materials" is also relatively clearly divided into good and evil. In this respect, his statement makes relatively little sense.
As for Tolkien, however, there is discussion about what shape and color elves (ears) have, while with Pullman somehow there is not so much discussion at all.

I actually like his books. But it's just a completely different league.


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 3, 2022)

Annatar said:


> I found something myself, in an interview with a German newspaper. Translated it says:
> 
> - Newspaper_: Here also still stands the pub "The Eagle and Child", where Tolkien and Lewis once liked to sit together. It is said that you are not an admirer of these two fantasy heroes._
> 
> ...


Yeah...he clearly missed Boromir, Denethor, Thranduil, the Dwarves of Erebor, etc. He also clearly missed ALL of The Silmarillion.


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