# Gandalf's fear



## Ithrynluin (Sep 22, 2003)

> _The Return of the King; The Siege of Gondor_
> As his story was unfolded of his meeting with Frodo and his servant and of the events at Henneth Annûn, Pippin became aware that Gandalf’s hands were trembling as they clutched the carven wood. White they seemed now and very old, and as he looked at them, suddenly with a thrill of fear Pippin knew that Gandalf, Gandalf himself, was troubled, even afraid. The air of the room was close and still. At last when Faramir spoke of his parting with the travellers, and of their resolve to go to Cirith Ungol, his voice fell, and he shook his head and sighed. Then Gandalf sprang up.
> ‘Cirith Ungol? Morgul Vale?’ he said. ‘The time, Faramir, the time? When did you part with them? When would they reach that accursed valley?’
> ‘I parted with them in the morning two days ago,’ said Faramir. ‘It is fifteen leagues thence to the vale of the Morgulduin, if they went straight south; and then they would be still five leagues westward of the accursed Tower. At swiftest they could not come there before today, and maybe they have not come there yet. Indeed I see what you fear. But the darkness is not due to their venture. It began yestereve, and all Ithilien was under shadow last night. It is clear to me that the Enemy has long planned an assault on us, and its hour had already been determined before ever the travellers left my keeping.’
> Gandalf paced the floor. ‘The morning of two days ago, nigh on three days of journey! How far is the place where you parted?’





> _The Return of the King; The Siege of Gondor_
> ‘Tell me,’ he said, ‘is there any hope? For Frodo, I mean; or at least mostly for Frodo.’
> Gandalf put his hand on Pippin’s head. ‘There never was much hope,’ he answered. ‘Just a fool’s hope, as I have been told. And when I heard of Cirith Ungol———‘ He broke off and strode to the window as if his eyes could pierce the night in the East. ‘Cirith Ungol!’ he muttered. ‘[color=sky blue]Why that way, I wonder?[/color]’ He turned. ‘Just now, Pippin, my heart almost failed me, hearing that name.



Isn't Gandalf exaggarating a little by being so surprised about the way that Frodo & co. have taken? I reckon he knew the routes leading in and out of Mordor pretty well? 

Which path did he expect them to take then? Surely not the Morannon. Was he not aware of the heavy vigilance there?

Or did he perhaps believe that there were other, more secluded and safe passages into Mordor?


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## Starflower (Sep 22, 2003)

maybe he thought they would go the other way around, and what he must have been afraid was that the Ring would end up in the hands of the Nazgul in Minas Morgul.... 
Gandalf must have known about Morannon and the guard, the idea was , as described at the Council of Elrond, that Frodo would "find a way to Mordor", the hope in this "foolish" expedition hinged on finding a way to Mordor unnoticed. And why woould Gandalf know the ways in and out of Mordor pretty well? He'd never been there, and as he himself says" noone who enters Barad-dur ever comes out", and there was noone living at the time who would have actually been in Mordor.




Starflower


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 22, 2003)

Gandalf has been near Mordor, and I don't think it's that hard to notice the only two obvious paths into it, which were connected with roads - The Morannon and the Minas Morgul route. What did he expect? That Frodo would go climbing the Mountains of Shadow, in hopes of finding a breach in the otherwise impenetrable wall of Mordor? Perhaps. That is why their hope was hanging on a thread.


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## Starflower (Sep 22, 2003)

> What did he expect? That Frodo would go climbing the Mountains of Shadow, in hopes of finding a breach in the otherwise impenetrable wall of Mordor



maybe he did at that, as their only hope was for Frodo to enter Mordor unnoticed by agents of the enemy.
That's why many were thinking that the quest was doomed from the start, that there was no way for Frodo to find his way into Mordor. And it may well be that without Gollum and passage through Cirith Ungol the Ring would never have reached Mount Doom


Starflower


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## Kelonus (Sep 22, 2003)

Didn't Gandalf say Gollum had a part to play for good or for bad. Well, I believe the good was when Gollum led Frodo and Sam to a passage which would help, but the bad of it is when he felt betrayed and he tries to kill the hobbits by leading them to Shelob. His part in helping destroy the ring was that his greed for it cost him the ring and his life.


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## Inderjit S (Sep 22, 2003)

Maybe he was wondering *why* Gollum lead them to that place. MSurely Gollum had a singular purpose in mind in leading them to Minas Morgul? He had a idea that Gollum would be treacherous and it is probable that he knew of Shelob. His suprise is also merited as Sam and Frodo knew nothing of the pass beforehand and had deigned to go to the Black gate, though it was impassible.

The 'Nargil pass' in S.Mordor where the Isen goes into the Southern Mountain Range of Mordor.


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## HLGStrider (Sep 23, 2003)

> and there was noone living at the time who would have actually been in Mordor



Aragorn had.

It is never mentioned how he got in or what exactly he did there, but it is stated in the Tale of Arwen and Aragorn (I believe) that he did go into Mordor.

I also remember SOMETHING about him going as far as the Sea of Rhun, but I think it might've been in a Tolkien companion that I only borrowed because I've never found that quote again.

Anyway, it can be done. Aragorn had done it. I'm not sure how. . .


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## Starflower (Sep 23, 2003)

I'm not sure about the validity of your argument that Aragorn went to Mordor... since the only way to enter Mordor would be secretly, and it says in LoTr that all the ways in and out were guarded.... so it is unlikely that Aragorn had been actually into Mordor.. he may have traveled far south and to the borders of that land, but it would have been difficult for him to enter that land u nseen . The Pass of Cirith Ungol was guarded - by Shelob - it was touch and go for the hobbits to make it, buty since there is no evidence that aragorn knew about the tunnel through the mountains... 

Starflower


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## HLGStrider (Sep 23, 2003)

"It came to pass that when Aragorn was nine and forty years of age he returned from perils on the dark confines of Mordor, where Sauron now dwelt again and was busy with evil."

Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, Appendix A.

He had been to Mordor.


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## Starflower (Sep 23, 2003)

*hangs head in shame*
I stand corrected



Starflower


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## Beleg (Sep 23, 2003)

> Isn't Gandalf exaggarating a little by being so surprised about the way that Frodo & co. have taken? I reckon he knew the routes leading in and out of Mordor pretty well?



He isn't. The terror of Morgul Vale is very great, since due to the influence of the Nazgul's it has been turned into a valley of fear and is perhaps the most dangerous enterance into Mordor. It is also perhaps the most obvious enterance so the threat of being captured their would be greater. I don't know, I don't think so he ever journeyed into Mordor, so I am not sure he would have been aware of its topography.



> Which path did he expect them to take then? Surely not the Morannon. Was he not aware of the heavy vigilance there?



He would have reasoned out the heavy vigilance there and yet since no holy terror such as that of the Morgul Vale abode there he perahps felt that F&S had more chance there. Or perhaps he expected them to find some way through the sheer walls of Ephel Dueth and enter Mordor through some hidden Mountain part. [Although Ephel Dueth was accounted as unscaleble due to its sheer walls]. Perhaps, in the back of his mind he expected them to enter Mordor through the south and east, although that wasn't possible in practice. 



> Or did he perhaps believe that there were other, more secluded and safe passages into Mordor?



He only believed the passage through Minas Morgul to be the most dangerous. 



> maybe he thought they would go the other way around, and what he must have been afraid was that the Ring would end up in the hands of the Nazgul in Minas Morgul....



When F&S ended up in the vale I can't recall any Nazgul being there, but you have a valid reason here. 
Perhaps he thought in his mind that Gollum might know of some other enterance into Mordor, and would take them through it?


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## Flammifer (Sep 23, 2003)

> When F&S ended up in the vale I can't recall any Nazgul being there, but you have a valid reason here.



If you are referring to Morgul Vale, there was a Nazgul there. The Witch-King led the force that was to attack Minas Tirith from Minas Morgul....and Frodo, Sam and Gollum saw them pass through the gates.

I believe that if Gandalf knew anything about the terror that was in Minas Morgul he had due cause for concern. I can't be bothered getting all the quotes from the end of the chapters "The Forbidden Pool" to "Journey To The Cross-roads", but if you read theses passages I think you'll find that even if Gandalf has any kind of inkling that something such as this might happen, which I'm sure that he does, he should be extremely scared.


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Beleg _
> *He isn't. The terror of Morgul Vale is very great, since due to the influence of the Nazgul's it has been turned into a valley of fear and is perhaps the most dangerous enterance into Mordor. It is also perhaps the most obvious enterance so the threat of being captured their would be greater. I don't know, I don't think so he ever journeyed into Mordor, so I am not sure he would have been aware of its topography.*



The Morannon is the most obvious entrance into Mordor by far. And I am well aware of how frightening and dangerous the Morgul vale is (but hey, thanks for reminding me!), but one would have thought that Gandalf would have anticipated the (two) possible entry ways into Mordor.



> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> *"It came to pass that when Aragorn was nine and forty years of age he returned from perils on the dark confines of Mordor, where Sauron now dwelt again and was busy with evil."
> 
> Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, Appendix A.
> ...



Aragorn had *not* been to Mordor. He had been on the _confines_ of it, but not in it. And so has Gandalf (and many of the Gondorians, for that matter). Anyone who would have dared to enter, would surely had got caught. So if there were any alternative routes to entering Mordor, Aragorn and Gandalf could have been the ones to know them. But there obviously weren't any, since surely they would have advised Frodo to take them beforehand.


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## Beleg (Sep 23, 2003)

> The Morannon is the most obvious entrance into Mordor by far.



How can you say that?



> Anyone who would have dared to enter, would surely had got caught. So if there were any alternative routes to entering Mordor, Aragorn and Gandalf could have been the ones to know them. But there obviously weren't any, since surely they would have advised Frodo to take them beforehand.



Aragon and Gandalf cannot expect to know every route or entry into Mordor and since Gandalf wasn't sure what to do till his fake death in Moria, they mightn't have talked about Mordor and its passageways before that. They might have talked it over in Lorien and Frodo might have got some advice there, infact it is only logical that he would have got some advice there and it may be that F&S's point-of-view Morronon would have been the main enterance,[The battle of Dagorlad in which Lorien elves participated was fought near Morronan.] but from Rohirric and Gondorian point of view, I still believe Morronan and Morgul Vale both to be the obvious entrances into Mordor, Morgul Vale moreso because it is closer.


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 23, 2003)

> How can you say that?



Because it's the one that is most easily reached by armies, emissaries,...etc. It is also the most obvious and easily spotted, with the great big gate and two towers of teeth, and constant movement on its walls. It is more easily accessible than Minas Morgul and that's why all the battles were fought there.

Minas Morgul is more secluded, and really not as important a passage to Mordor as Morannon (which, by the way, means 'the Black Gate' - quite a prominent title).


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## HLGStrider (Sep 23, 2003)

> Aragorn had not been to Mordor. He had been on the confines of it, but not in it.



Just curious, but how are you defining confines? I'm afraid I'd never heard this word used in this context, and in all fairness I assumed it meant within because when something is confined in something it is in something (if you are confined in a box you are in a box, so if you are in the confines of a box, would you not be in a box?).

I'm looking it up now. . .

dobbie dobbie dobbie. . .flip through the dictionary. .doobie doobie do. . .

confines: a boundary or bound; limit; boarder. . .or. . .region, territory. . .

I suppose you could say he was on the boarder from this. . .that could make sense. . .but if you use the second definition, region or territory, I think you can interpet it my way, and I am CERTAIN I remember something about him entering Mordor somewhere. .


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 23, 2003)

"It came to pass that when Aragorn was nine and forty years of age he returned from perils [color=sky blue]on[/color] the dark confines of Mordor, where Sauron now dwelt again and was busy with evil."

He was not 'within' the confines of Mordor, but 'on' the confines, which means he was on the borders of Mordor. And just for the heck of it, if we assume that he did enter Mordor, wouldn't he have imparted this precious information upon the Ringbearer, who desperately needed to get _within_ the confines of Mordor?


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## HLGStrider (Sep 23, 2003)

Hmmm. . .I still think I read it somewhere . . .blah blah blah. . .

I bet it was in one of those Tolkien companions. They aren't always trustworthy, I've heard.

Anyway,

when you say why wouldn't he have told? Told that he had been there or told the way?

As for the had been there, I don't know that he didn't or what it would've accomplished. 

As for told the way, Aragorn would've assumed he would be with Frodo (after Gandalf's death) and also that the ways had changed, that the way he did it might not be applicable for a hobbit. Aragorn might've gone in disguised (it's how I always imagined it).

But now it is under debate whether he did or not. You do have a good point, and while I think it is still possible that I read it right originally, it is more likely that you are reading it right now unless I can find that other quote I think I read somewhere.


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## Beleg (Sep 24, 2003)

> Because it's the one that is most easily reached by armies, emissaries,...etc. It is also the most obvious and easily spotted, with the great big gate and two towers of teeth, and constant movement on its walls. It is more easily accessible than Minas Morgul and that's why all the battles were fought there.



The people in context are not armies but two hobbits who would like to enter Mordor secretly and won't announce their arrival. Morronan is impentrable with its Orc guard and the two impentrable teeth. But Minas Morgul is situated in a vale and there is comparitively greater chance of entering Mordor through it. And the fact that Morronan is the most obvious enterance makes it more dangerous and would cause the hobbits to choose a less obvious albiet more dangerous way to enter Mordor. Minas Morgul is not a place for open battle, the plain of Dagorlad is so the main great battle were fought there [You also have to realize that the Wainraiders and Baggorlach assualts came from east and they couldn't exactly be met at Minas Morgul] and the Last Alliance main attack was from North. I agree it is a better suited place for battles, but for spies and people looking to enter Mordor secretly it is not the place. 




> As for told the way, Aragorn would've assumed he would be with Frodo (after Gandalf's death) and also that the ways had changed, that the way he did it might not be applicable for a hobbit. Aragorn might've gone in disguised (it's how I always imagined it).



Please tell me from where and how would he have entered Mordor except from the South East? I don't think that Aragon had assumed that he would go with Frodo, but that's a whole seperate discussion.


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Beleg _
> *The people in context are not armies but two hobbits who would like to enter Mordor secretly and won't announce their arrival. Morronan is impentrable with its Orc guard and the two impentrable teeth. But Minas Morgul is situated in a vale and there is comparitively greater chance of entering Mordor through it. And the fact that Morronan is the most obvious enterance makes it more dangerous and would cause the hobbits to choose a less obvious albiet more dangerous way to enter Mordor. Minas Morgul is not a place for open battle, the plain of Dagorlad is so the main great battle were fought there [You also have to realize that the Wainraiders and Baggorlach assualts came from east and they couldn't exactly be met at Minas Morgul] and the Last Alliance main attack was from North. I agree it is a better suited place for battles, but for spies and people looking to enter Mordor secretly it is not the place.
> *



EXACTLY! All the more reason for Gandalf to be *sure* that would be the path two little hobbits would have taken, and to be a little prepared to know that great dangers await them. I still hold to my view that he was a little too surprised that the hobbits had taken the Morgul Vale path, since that was clearly the only option!



> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> *
> when you say why wouldn't he have told? Told that he had been there or told the way?
> 
> ...



If he had been *in* Mordor before, he would have let the Council know about it, or at least Frodo would have been told in what way Aragorn had entered Mordor.
There is no mention of anything like this, not even remotely.


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## HLGStrider (Sep 24, 2003)

> Please tell me from where and how would he have entered Mordor except from the South East? I don't think that Aragon had assumed that he would go with Frodo, but that's a whole seperate discussion



I don't know where and how he would've. I just said that based on that quote I believed he did (plus that other quote I can't remember where I read it). I don't think Aragorn assumed until after Gandalf's death. Before that he was going to Minas Tirith. Afterwards, he wasn't sure what to do. He felt he needed to take Gandalf's place but he also felt he needed to go with Boromir. 

There was once a hugely long discussion on whether he should've gone with Frodo or not.



> If he had been in Mordor before, he would have let the Council know about it, or at least Frodo would have been told in what way Aragorn had entered Mordor.



Not necessarily. The council only discussed if they should go, not how they should go. Any discussion such as how would've been done in private after the council between the members.


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## Khôr’nagan (Sep 24, 2003)

I don't think Aragorn ever actually entered Mordor... It said in FotR that he captured Gollum in the Dead Marshes, and though that doesn't mean he hadn't been in Mordor, it doesn't mean he has, either.


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## HLGStrider (Sep 26, 2003)

No, if he entered Mordor it was sometime between leaving Rivendell at 20 and entering Lothlorien at 49.


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## Khôr’nagan (Sep 26, 2003)

Huh? What did you mean by that? Well, whatever...

During his 70-year period of fighting Sauron (2951-WotR), he had time to meet Gandalf in 2956, serve both Thengel of Rohan and Ecthelion of Gondor from 2957-2980, raid Umbar and destroy a large portion of the Corsairs in 2980 and plight troth with Arwen that same year, and then spend 13 years of on-and-off searching for Gollum ending when he finally captures him in the Dead Marshes in 3017 and takes him to Thranduil in Mirkwood (at which point he probably met Legolas, if not at some earlier time), and then be approaching Bree at night on the 29th of September 3018 along the South Road. He most certainly did not go into Mordor from 2951-2957, though there is a slight possibility that he may have entered Mordor sometime from 2958-2979, but it is extremely unlikely. He also did not enter Mordor any time from 3017 until after the War of the Ring. It is also unlikely that he entered Mordor until after Gandalf asked him to search for Gollum in 3004. Therefore, his only opportunities for entering Mordor were from 2981 to 3017, during which time he was also the Chieftan of the Dunedain of the North and had those responsibilities, spent enough time in Bree in the Prancing Pony to recieve the nick-name 'Strider' and be well-remembered by Barliman. He was also, during his time in Bree, keeping an eye on the Shire and of its happenings. Therefore, it is unlikely that he went very far or did very much until after 3004, when Gandalf requested that he look for Gollum. Therefore, it is my belief that the only opportunities for Aragorn to have entered Mordor were from 3005 to 3017.

It is said that _"In 3017, after thirteen years of intermittent searching at Gandalf's request, Aragorn captured Gollum."_ It may thus be assumed that Aragorn was taking his time and doing other things while searching for Gollum, and since he was on the opposite end of northeastern Middle-Earth than Mordor, it would have taken a very long time for Aragorn to get there while taking his time and doing other things, assuming that he knew he was going to Mordor and didn't have to find any paths or understand any clues. Since he had to find Gollum's path, however, it may be assumed that it took a few years for Aragorn to get to Mordor. It may, therefore, be assumed that Aragorn did not enter Mordor until after 3010.

So, I now have it reasonably narrowed-down to a span of 7 years during which Aragorn could have entered Mordor. I do not believe that Aragorn would have simply gone into Mordor without telling Gandalf or Elrond or Galadriel what he had learned, so chances are he spent a few months to a year going places until coming back to Mordor. He would then have wanted to explore, not simply try to barge in. So he would have spent another long while of very gradual exploration of the possible entrances into Mordor, perhaps even taking yet another year. He would have most likely tried several place but failed to get in (i.e., climbing a rock-face, sneaking in an Orc tunnel, trying to find hidden paths, etc.), and he would have been extremely spent, thus going at an even slower pace. So, with all likely-hood, Aragorn did not enter until 3012, though after that he may have succeeded in using disguises, sneaking in by dangerous routes, and even by climbing a small cliff. He would not have stayed too long, however. Only long enough to try and learn something about Gollum's whereabouts.

Therefore, though he may have had a little opportunity to venture into Mordor, he did not necessarily do so, and even if he did, the ways he might have gone by doing it may have been far too dangerous and perhaps impossible for two Hobbits to do, or for even more than one person, let alone with someone carrying the One Ring. So, it is doubtfull that Aragorn ever entered Mordor, and if he did, it was of no avail to the Ring-bearer if told.


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## HLGStrider (Sep 28, 2003)

Someday I am going to find that quote and show you all!


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## Lantarion (Sep 28, 2003)

LMAO! 

Excellent evidence there Khôr; who would dare to contest it, I wonder.


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