# Who is the oldest? Bombadil or Treebeard



## Úlairi

*Who is the oldest?*

There is a contradiction as to who is the oldest creature on ME is. Here are a couple of quotes from 'The Lord of the Rings':



> "I had forgotten Bombadil, if indeed this is still the same that walked the woods and hills long ago, and even then was *older than the old*. That was not then his name. Iarwain Ben-adar we called him, *oldest and fatherless*."



On the next page it says:



> "I think not. I think that in the end, if all else is conquered, Bombadil will fall, *Last as he was First*."



These are the words of Elrond and Glorfindel. Later in the novel(s) Gandalf the White after being found for the first time by Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli:



> "Treebeard is Fangorn, the guardian of the forest; he is the oldest of the Ents, *the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the Sun upon this Middle-earth*."



Has Tolkien contradicted himself in his writings? Has Ulairi found yet another contradiction in the complex world of Tolkien? What do you guys think? Thoughts please.


----------



## Úlairi

Is anyone going to post?


----------



## Niniel

I was just wondering about this myself, because I didn't know it either. The only thing I can think of is that one of them (I suppose Bombadil) is not really a living creature, but a spirit or something.


----------



## Elias

I think that Tom Bombadil is the eldest I can't you reason why because this is only my opinion to this. It might be that the only person who had the answer to this was Tokien himself. I don't believe that Tolkien has contradicted himself.

I'm not the smartest person to answer this.


----------



## Úlairi

> _Originally posted by Elias _
> *I think that Tom Bombadil is the eldest I can't you reason why because this is only my opinion to this. It might be that the only person who had the answer to this was Tokien himself. I don't believe that Tolkien has contradicted himself.
> 
> I'm not the smartest person to answer this. *





> _Originally posted by Elias_
> *I don't believe that Tolkien has contradicted himself.*


 
Well, we'll be the judge of that.



> _Originally posted by Elias_
> *I don't believe that Tolkien has contradicted himself.*



No offence, but I agree. Anyone else? Grond? Ancalagon?


----------



## Rangerdave

Ok, I will leave Tom out of this. Lets face, nobody has any solid evidence either what or how old Tom is except Tom. And he aint talkin' so I aint walkin'.

My question is about the Ents. Remember in the Sil that Eru commanded the creations of Aule (Dwarves) to sleep under the mountains until after the coming of the Elves? Well, why would he not restrict the Ents in the same fashion? I guess is that the Ents are the children of Yavanna to guard the green. 

So the Elves came first, but maybe only by moments. But since we have no direct evidence of who the very first Elf was, he may not have survived. In that case Fangorn (Treebeard) may very well be the Oldest of any of the races that we know of. So: If Treebeard is the Oldest of his race, and his race is nearly as old as the Elves; He may very well be oldest of all known species.

Tom is not a race or a species, Tom is Tom. Therefor Tom can not be counted among the races of Middle-Earth. This makes his age of no consequence in deteriming who is first. 

Besides, even the wisest of Elves and Wizards can make mistakes when they don't have all the facts. 


Of course, I am just guessing here.
RD


----------



## Gothmog

I do not believe that Tolkien contradicted himself in this matter. It is a matter of fact that at the time when Gandalf spoke these words to Theoden he knew that he was talking about something that was a lot younger tham himself. So it would seem that Gandalf did not concider himself a 'Living Creature' of Middle-earth. Gandalf also knew Tom Bombadil and knew how long he had been there. It is likely that while Tolkien saw fit to ensure that we would have no hard evidence of what Tom is, Gandalf would know (or know enough to put him also outside the class of 'Living Creature' in the same way.

It shown that Gandalf did indeed know much of Tom Bombadil by the way he talked about him later:


> 'But if you would know, I am turning aside soon. I am going to have a long talk with Bombadil: such a talk as I have not had in all my time. He is a moss-gatherer, and I have been a stone doomed to rolling. But my rolling days are ending, and now we shall have much to say to one another.'


 From The Return of the King: The Scouring of the Shire.

So I think that Tom Bombadil was the First, But Treebeard was still the 'Oldest living creature'.


----------



## Thorin

Okay, here we go....

Bombadil (whatever he is) seems to not have been a created being....He said he was in ME before the first acorn and before the elves moved West (after they awoke)....

Treebeard is the oldest living creature on ME, even though he said that the elves awoke him....The elves came before Treebeard but the elves that awoke him are all dead or passed on to Valinor.....Therefore, Treebeard is older then Galadriel and Cirdan (Cirdan being about 10500 years old)....

So Bombadil is the Eldest, but as for created living beings, Treebeard is still the oldest....

Hope that helps.


----------



## Grond

Gothmog and Thorin beat me to the punch. Tom is not a living thing. He is something else. I personally believe him to be one of the Ainur from the Void that did not go to Aman but....

Treebeard is at the time of the War of the Ring, the oldest living creature on Middle-earth.


----------



## ILLOTRTM

Forgive me if I'm way off target, but the way I always saw it was that (Well, besides that Tom is not a living thing) Tolkien says that Bombadill is older than... well I can't remember what he said, but he named some things, like the sun, or something. That doesn't mean he's the oldest thing on ME. Am I making any sense to anyone at all?


----------



## Gothmog

> 'Eh, what?' said Tom sitting up, and his eyes glinting in the gloom. 'Don't you know my name yet? That's the only answer. Tell me, who are you, alone, yourself and nameless? But you are young and I am old. Eldest, that's what I am. Mark my words, my friends: Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.'


 From The Fellowship of the Ring: The House of Tom Bombadil.

Yes he was there to see it all unfold. The question still revolves around whether or not he is classed as a 'Living Creature' by Gandalf. It is this point on which I have based my views.

And ILLOTRTM, yes your are making sense even if you could not find the quote you wanted. Carry on posting. Soon you will be in the same position as the rest of us. (Confused when you walk in the real? world.)


----------



## Bucky

I think the 'loophole' to avoid contradiction is in Treebeard being called the Oldest Living creature.

Who was in ME first?
Obviously Tom, as he was there before an acorn even fell, which to me means before any trees.


>>>>Has Ulairi found yet another contradiction in the complex world of Tolkien? What do you guys think? Thoughts please. 

Bucky thinks that people who refer to themselves in the first person need a serving of humble pie.

 

BTW, I (& many others here I'm sure) wondered about that since long before you were potty trained, so you haven't found a thing we didn't already know........


----------



## Sam_Gamgee

i think tom is the oldest but i think treebeard has been in ME longer because i think tom is a valar so i think hes older but came to ME after treebeard was "born" (for lack of use of a better word)


----------



## Viceras Daydark

Just my thought on this:

Gimli often stated "facts" that were indeed falsehoods. As it is a character talking, and not Tolkien himself, I don't think its a contradiction.

And though I don't like my opinion of this, I would say Gandalf exagerated, but not too much. Old, Treebeard was. Older than any living thing in Arda, save for Bombadil perhaps. Gandalf, more or less, was correct. Words for such an age would be difficult to find.

-Viceras Daydark


----------



## Beleg Strongbow

Welcomke Vicreas!
Bombadil is a enigma so he probably came to life with the valar and other maia. The ents came later on made by Yavanna called tree shepards i'd think that bombadil would be older.


----------



## Úlairi

> _Originally posted by Grond _
> *Gothmog and Thorin beat me to the punch. Tom is not a living thing. He is something else. I personally believe him to be one of the Ainur from the Void that did not go to Aman but....
> 
> Treebeard is at the time of the War of the Ring, the oldest living creature on Middle-earth. *



Yes, but there is no proof that Bombadil was 'not' a living creature Grond, because Tolkien never wrote that fact down anyway. So we cannot 'presume' he was NOT living as he was a talking, walking, *living*, breathing *creature*. That is a good definition of what a living thing is.



> _Originally posted by Bucky_
> *I think the 'loophole' to avoid contradiction is in Treebeard being called the Oldest Living creature.*



Bucky, I disagree. I believe that Tolkien may have actually made an honest mistake in his writings as he is only human, and humans are not infallible, we all know that. 



> 'Eh, what?' said Tom sitting up, and his eyes glinting in the gloom. 'Don't you know my name yet? That's the only answer. Tell me, who are you, alone, yourself and nameless? But you are young and I am old. Eldest, that's what I am. Mark my words, my friends: Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.'



Yes, thankyou Gothmog, I was aware of the passage, but it is irrelevenat to the argument. OK, so the subject of the thread is 'Who is the oldest?', but I am wondering if Tolkien accidentally contradicted himself.



> _Originally posted by Viceras Daydark_
> *Gimli often stated "facts" that were indeed falsehoods. As it is a character talking, and not Tolkien himself, I don't think its a contradiction.*



Could you please enlighten me as to where this is stated Viceras? If so, than IMO Tolkien used that as an excuse to get out of any contradictions he made.



> _Originally posted by Bucky_
> *Bucky thinks that people who refer to themselves in the first person need a serving of humble pie.*



Hi Bucky, nice to see you on the thread too.


----------



## Grond

> _Originally posted by Ulari_
> *Yes, but there is no proof that Bombadil was 'not' a living creature Grond, because Tolkien never wrote that fact down anyway. So we cannot 'presume' he was NOT living as he was a talking, walking, living, breathing creature. That is a good definition of what a living thing is.*


Well then Ulari, you have dug yourself a hole. Are you going to jump in? You have also painted yourself into a corner as well. There is also no "proof" that Sauron isn't also a living creature. Wait a minute!! What about Saruman?? Wait, hold on!! Gandalf too. We are besieged with living creatures that are indeed older than Treebeard for all of those I've named both walk on Middle-earth at the time of the Lord of the Rings and are older than Treebeard. Hold on!! We forgot about the Eagles who are also Maia and would be living creatures that were older than Treebeard. 

Ulari, you are either faced with acknowledging that JRRT WAS NOT counting peoples he considered of the "spriritual order" in his equation or that he made a monumental blunder of epic proportions. I don't think it was the latter. But, of course, I'm sure that in your genuis, you have already figured out the correct answer.


----------



## Gothmog

> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *
> 
> Yes, thankyou Gothmog, I was aware of the passage, but it is irrelevenat to the argument. OK, so the subject of the thread is 'Who is the oldest?', but I am wondering if Tolkien accidentally contradicted himself.
> *



In what way do concider the passage I quoted to be irrelevant? In doing so you are chosing to discount my reasoning without bothering to answer it. The passage clearly shows that Gandalf did not count the Istari who are Maiar as Theoden was talking to one. Also Gandalf did not mention Saruman in this context. So until you answer the points made and refute them the post is Most Relevant!


----------



## Gil-Galad

I don't think the oldest creature is Tom.It seems to me that he would be a Vala or a Maia who has decided not to go back in Valinor,but to stay in Me,after The War of Wrath and Morgoth's death.Although the dwarves were created first by Aule,they weren't alive till elves' coming.So I would say that Treebeard is the oldest of all.


----------



## Úlairi

> _Originally posted by Grond _
> *Well then Ulari, you have dug yourself a hole. Are you going to jump in? You have also painted yourself into a corner as well. There is also no "proof" that Sauron isn't also a living creature. Wait a minute!! What about Saruman?? Wait, hold on!! Gandalf too. We are besieged with living creatures that are indeed older than Treebeard for all of those I've named both walk on Middle-earth at the time of the Lord of the Rings and are older than Treebeard. Hold on!! We forgot about the Eagles who are also Maia and would be living creatures that were older than Treebeard.
> 
> Ulari, you are either faced with acknowledging that JRRT WAS NOT counting peoples he considered of the "spriritual order" in his equation or that he made a monumental blunder of epic proportions. I don't think it was the latter. But, of course, I'm sure that in your genuis, you have already figured out the correct answer. *



Perhaps I have Grond. Even if Sauron could be counted as a *living* creature, they are all from *Valinor*. Tolkien made the statement that Fangorn was the oldest living creature under the sun of *Middle-earth* and that Bombadil was the oldest and the first. We do not know where Bombadil is from, and we will never know. But Bombadil cannot be a Maia, a Vala or Iluvatar. If you want me to show you why then I will. I posted it somewhere else. So what is Bombadil and where is he from? We will never know. Tolkien may or may not have contradicted himself as we do not know where Bombadil is from. It looks like I have filled the hole back in and I have got myself out of the corner Grond.


----------



## Grond

> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *...We do not know where Bombadil is from, and we will never know. But Bombadil cannot be a Maia, a Vala or Iluvatar. If you want me to show you why then I will. I posted it somewhere else. So what is Bombadil and where is he from? We will never know. Tolkien may or may not have contradicted himself as we do not know where Bombadil is from. It looks like I have filled the hole back in and I have got myself out of the corner Grond. *


Wrong again!!! Ulari, you are only right in saying that we don't know what Tom Bombadil is. That means that he could be anything... a Vala, a Maia or Iluvator. Since Tolkien defined him as an enigma, he certainly would not fit the bill as a "living creature". He is something else... he is something more. 

The hole is not filled it... it is just getting bigger.


----------



## Úlairi

Tom Bombadil could not be Iluvatar as it clearly states in the Council of Elrond in LotR: 



> "...soon or late the Lord of the Rings would learn of its hiding place and would bend all his power towards it. Could that power be defied by Bombadil alone? I think not. I think that in the end, if all else is conquered, Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First; and then Night will come."



So, Bomadil is not Iluvatar or one of the Valar for that matter as not even Elrond or the Elves of Rivendell thought that Bombadil could withstand the power of Sauron. Simply because the Valar and Iluvatar were more powerful than Sauron therefore they could defy him, which is not true. Another reason is that that not one of the Valar should return to ME until the end of time when Morgoth escapes the void, and Turin Turambar slays him, so, therefore Bombadil could bot be a Vala. 

The reason Bombadil could not be a Maia is because all Maia were attracted to the Ring, desiring to wear it and to claim its power for themselves. Olorin (Gandalf) was drawn to it and Curumo (Saruman) above all desired it. Yet Bombadil did not care for it at all. The Council of Elrond even believed that Bombadil would be an unsafe guardian of the One. So Bombadil was neither Iluvatar, a Vala or a Maia. He is simply an enigma.



> _Originally posted by Grond_
> *The hole is not filled it... it is just getting bigger.*



I don't think so anymore Grond.


----------



## Grond

Tom could be anything. He is, as you say, an enigma. An undefined entity that has great power of undefined origins. You can say what you think he isn't all day Ulari, but you have proven nothing. The key word in your last post the neither Elrond nor any of the Elves of Rivendell thought that Bombadil could stand against Sauron. There is no certainty there. 

Personally, I don't think he is any of them either. But I also don't think his origins are of Middle-earth. He is something else from the Void. Another Ainur-like being which is unexplained. Like Ungoliant and those things at the roots of Moria that are older than Sauron. Or maybe, he is the personification of Middle-earth itself. The true Earth-spirit, which would also make him older than Treebeard while still leaving Treebeard as the oldest living creature.


----------



## Úlairi

> _Originally posted by Grond _
> *Tom could be anything. He is, as you say, an enigma. An undefined entity that has great power of undefined origins. You can say what you think he isn't all day Ulari, but you have proven nothing. The key word in your last post the neither Elrond nor any of the Elves of Rivendell thought that Bombadil could stand against Sauron. There is no certainty there.
> 
> Personally, I don't think he is any of them either. But I also don't think his origins are of Middle-earth. He is something else from the Void. Another Ainur-like being which is unexplained. Like Ungoliant and those things at the roots of Moria that are older than Sauron. Or maybe, he is the personification of Middle-earth itself. The true Earth-spirit, which would also make him older than Treebeard while still leaving Treebeard as the oldest living creature. *



Elrond, the wisest of the Elves, wrong? Well all I have to say to that is... perhaps you're right Grond. I think you may agree now that the so-called 'hole' is non-existent as we cannot say that Bombadil was living or not so either argument is valid in this case. Perhaps Bombadil was a part of Iluvatar's 'Third Symphony' in which the Ainur did not know of it very well. Maybe Bombadil was a part of it like Ungoliant therefore, if I am correct than I can safely say that Bombadil was living, but we cannot say that he was. He could be anything, and I am greatly frustrated that Tolkien did not elaborate any further on Bombadil, but, if he had, than you and I would have nothing to argue about which I would greatly miss. I will not accept the fact, however, that Bombadil *wasn't* living as there is no proof to support your argument but that is also the same with mine. So, I think we can call this one a stalemate, wouldn't you agree Grond O mighty hammer of the Underworld?


----------



## Beleg Strongbow

Personally, I don't think he is any of them either. But I also don't think his origins are of Middle-earth. He is something else from the Void. Another Ainur-like being which is unexplained. Like Ungoliant and those things at the roots of Moria that are older than Sauron. 




That is what i beleive it too.


----------



## Grond

> _Originally posted by Niniel_
> *I was just wondering about this myself, because I didn't know it either. The only thing I can think of is that one of them (I suppose Bombadil) is not really a living creature, but a spirit or something.*





> _Originally posted by Rangerdave_
> *...Tom is not a race or a species, Tom is Tom. Therefor Tom can not be counted among the races of Middle-Earth. This makes his age of no consequence in deteriming who is first.*





> _Originally posted by Gothmog_
> *...So I think that Tom Bombadil was the First, But Treebeard was still the 'Oldest living creature'*





> _Originally posted by Thorin_
> *...So Bombadil is the Eldest, but as for created living beings, Treebeard is still the oldest...*





> _Originally posted by Bucky_
> *...I think the 'loophole' to avoid contradiction is in Treebeard being called the Oldest Living creature.*





> _Originally posted by Beleg Strongbow_
> *...But I also don't think his origins are of Middle-earth. He is something else from the Void. Another Ainur-like being which is unexplained. Like Ungoliant and those things at the roots of Moria that are older than Sauron.*


Ulari, there is no definite answer, which you well knew when you posted this thread. You asked for "opinions" and "opinions" you got. The *concensus* is the one put forward early in the thread by fair Niniel, that Tom is not deemed a "living creature". So, since the question you posed is unanswerable in a definitive way, you have your stalemate. But... of course you knew that when you posted the thread.


----------



## Úlairi

> _Originally posted by Grond _
> *Ulari, there is no definite answer, which you well knew when you posted this thread. You asked for "opinions" and "opinions" you got. The concensus is the one put forward early in the thread by fair Niniel, that Tom is not deemed a "living creature". So, since the question you posed is unanswerable in a definitive way, you have your stalemate. But... of course you knew that when you posted the thread.  *



Yes Grond, I got my opinions and there is no proof to say that those opinions are wrong. Perhaps Tom was not a living creature and perhaps he was, therefore perhaps Tolkien contradicted himself and perhaps he didn't. Yes, I have my stalemate. I new this when I posted the thread, but I had hoped that someone could provide *definite* evidence to either prove or disprove the contradiction, because I believed that such as source could be found in _The Letters of J.R.R Tolkien_, a book that I do not own nor have seen, it is the bok that I most want to get my claws into.


----------



## Grond

Ulari, The Letters of JRRT will be a wonderful and joyful read for you, but, alas, you will find no further information on these matters. My opinions on Tom come from the letters. It is there that the author identifies him as an enigma and goes into as much detail as you will get... but there are no definitives other than he is a mystery. 

I know. I am old. I have all of his books which concern Middle-earth. Every last one of them.


----------



## Úlairi

Yes, all I need to read is two more of the HoME and the Letters of JRRT and I shall then read them all again and I aspire to be as much of a Tolkienologist as you Grond, as I have many years ahead of me. I will not let Tolkien interfere with school as the two most important years of my schooling life are quickly approaching and in those next two years I can guarantee that you will not see much of me, if you hear from me at all. When that time comes, I will tell ReadWryt and the WM that I wish to stay on the forum and that I would return more Tolkien knowledgeable than I had ever been before. As a matter of interest Grond, you continually say in various threads that you are old, if it is not too personal, may I ask of your age? I believe that it may be appropriate to PM your age to me if you wish to tell me at all. 

_To quote someone I once admired_



> "...with age comes wisdom, my young friend, never forget that."



So, the older you are the wiser you must be Grond.


----------



## Grond

I'm certainly not wise but I am old. Grond the Hammer of the Underworld was born in the year of our Lord 1954. I will be 48 in less than a month.

My birthday is available in my user profile BTW.


----------



## Rangerdave

*Old Farts Unite*

I may be a decade younger than Grond, but I would think I classify as an old fart on this forum. So let me make a smart-alec comment here.

Age does not necessarily bring wisdom, but it does bring experience. 

So we Oldies may not be wise but were devious and crafty.
(insert scary laughter here)

RD


----------



## Beleg Strongbow

*Re: Old Farts Unite*

Yes the average age of people is very young in this forum. In the teens id think it would be.


----------



## Úlairi

Actually Beleg, you would be surprised at how many 'old' people are on this forum. Grond, you have a good thirty to maybe even forty years ahead of you. You are not 'old', you are 'middle-aged'. Experience does come with age, Rangerdave, but so does wisdom and I believe that there is a chance that even you, may be wise.  I do believe that Grond is and RD, I think you are too.  Some people do not get wise, and there are a few. But I believe that quite a lot of the 'more experienced', 'wiser' or in layman's terms 'older' are wise.


----------



## Úlairi

Looks like the thread has gone quiet.


----------



## Rangerdave

Wisdom does not come from age, it comes from learning from your mistakes. Us old guys just had more time to make more mistake in. thats all.

so in that sense, I guess age does bring wisdom second hand. but the price is a killer

RD


----------



## Úlairi

> _Originally posted by Rangerdave _
> *Wisdom does not come from age, it comes from learning from your mistakes. Us old guys just had more time to make more mistake in. thats all.
> 
> so in that sense, I guess age does bring wisdom second hand. but the price is a killer
> 
> RD *



This would make a great New Thread wouldn't it RD. 'Does wisdom come from age?' it could be titled. But where to put it? I'm glad that you agree that with age comes wisdom. You guys have had a lot more time to make mistakes (but never Grond!  ), which is what is so admirable about you elder people.


----------



## Gothmog

Wisdom does not come with age unless you also have an open mind able to learn from the Many mistakes you will make.


----------



## Grond

What meager bit of wisdom I have is a direct result of learning from my countless mistakes. Ulari, I have made many in my life. The ability to learn from life experiences and one's mistakes is the true pathway to wisdom and common sense.


----------



## Úlairi

That was beautiful Grond. I printed that one off and stuck it on my wall. Perhaps I could send it to a publisher to include it in a book of quotes, although, I'm going to need your real name Grond, or I'll have to take credit for it. Btw, I am being deadly serious so do not think that I am joshing (I love that word), as I am seriously considering sending it off to a publisher.


----------



## Grond

At last Ulari, flattery may be getting you somewhere. It is not a quote, just a statement of fact. For me to take credit for it, would be to plagiarize most of the adult population of our planet. What I said was from my own mind, but I'm sure it's been said thousands, if not millions of times over the millenia. Send it in under your own name.


----------



## Eonwe

LOL!!!!

"but the price is a killer" -- RD!


----------



## Úlairi

> _Originally posted by Grond _
> *At last Ulari, flattery may be getting you somewhere. It is not a quote, just a statement of fact. For me to take credit for it, would be to plagiarize most of the adult population of our planet. What I said was from my own mind, but I'm sure it's been said thousands, if not millions of times over the millenia. Send it in under your own name.  *



I suppose I will. Pity really. I guess the old flattery trick seems to be getting to Grond and then my plans will be complete. Then I will learn all there is to know about Tolkien, gain even greater knowledge on the topic than Harad and Grond put together (is that possible?) and then the apprentice of Grond i.e. me will overthrow his master i.e. Grond. And then Ulairi will take over the forum and gather hundreds of follwers puissantly sending them under his dominion, and then will overthrow the webmaster and ReadWryt and all the other Moderators (except for the ones who joined me!) and Ulairi will rule the forum!

*MUUUUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


----------



## Grond

Ulari, somebody needs to get a REAL life.


----------



## Úlairi

> _Originally posted by Grond _
> *Ulari, somebody needs to get a REAL life.  *



Sadly for you Grond, I already do, and it's a good life too. I just thought for once I'd add a little humour to my threads, but it doesn't seem like a real hit.


----------



## entbabe

________________________

Orignally posted by Sam_Gamgee

i think tom is the oldest but i think treebeard has been in ME longer because i think tom is a valar so i think hes older but came to ME after treebeard was "born" (for lack of use of a better word)
________________________

Originally posted by Grond 
Gothmog and Thorin beat me to the punch. Tom is not a living thing. He is something else. I personally believe him to be one of the Ainur from the Void that did not go to Aman but.... 

Treebeard is at the time of the War of the Ring, the oldest living creature on Middle-earth. 
________________________. 

I agree with Grond and Sam to a degree. My gut feeling (if I'm allowed to have one about Tolkien's work!) is that Tom is either one of the Valar (even Orome in another form than Aldaron Lord of the Forests?) or even a manifestation of Illuvatar himself.

I mean where is Eru during the creations and battlesacross Arda? Is he meant to be like our Judeo-Christian God? Always here but never around? Perhaps as Tom he can be free and still live in Arda in a physical manifestation. He's one of the coolest characters in LOTR for sure. 

Anyway, to get back to the point, If Tom was around before the stars and Melkor came out of the dark then he is surely the oldest. There's something in this ...need to go back and read some more  Treebeard was created after Yavanna found out about the Children of Illuvatar to protect the forests (mostly from Men as the Elves loved the trees too).

PS: Has anyone read Tolkien's The Adventures of Tom Bombadil? I am trying to find a copy but not much luck yet...


----------



## Úlairi

entbabe, if you'd kindly divert your gaze back to the first page, I have provided specific evidence as to why Tom could NOT be either Iluvatar, Valar, or Maiar. Grond and I reached a stalemate as we will never know where Bombadil is from.


----------



## Wonko The Sane

*Dear people,*

Who cares! It doesn't matter who's older.


Worry about more important things. Like how Pippin could finish a whole pint.


----------



## Rangerdave

*Re: Dear people,*



> _Originally posted by Wonko The Sane _
> *Worry about more important things. Like how Pippin could finish a whole pint. *



They come in Pints!

RD


----------



## Wonko The Sane

HA! You liked that?

That post came unbidden out of my own head.

I'm wicked clever like that.



Pippin is my hero. I love his cuteness. 

Yay! Pints...mmm....


----------



## entbabe

> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *entbabe? *



Ulairi I didn't think you required a response based on the conclusiveness of your last response. I'm new to this forum and it appears that there is nothing that has not already been turned out and pulled inside out... so usually i'm happy to just read, but rash opinions make better reading wouldn't you say?

I've also discovered the fantatsic Encyclopedia of Arda which details this very matter is an easy to read manner. Although i'm sure you are all aware of it, here is the link anyway:

http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm

Well, to throw the last of my two cents worth in.... I think Tolkein created Tom as a character to fall outside of all the Middle Earth tales, central to them in some way but also not easily understood. Perhaps he did it as a way of showing that his stories could never tell the entire Story, and so enabling the story to always continue...unfinished but always moving with a certain mystery if you like. That would exlpain why there is even a TolkienForum...to discuss topics like this in all their wondrous indefinability.

As for who is older...i'm starting to think it's me


----------



## Úlairi

Yes, I am aware of the link. How old are you entbabe?


----------



## christopher

*Sauron*

 The Silmarillion isn't my strongest point; but isn't it so that Sauron was already there in the Beginning, perhaps not in the Void, but soon after the music became a 'solid mass' or the Earth if you will. He probably wasn't in the service of Melkor then, but I get the feeling that he was there? Later he moved to Middle-Earth, making him the oldest being there?
This is of course not about the initial statement whether Tolkien contradicted himself. However, by judging that Sauron is the oldest, this discussion becomes redundant.


Chr. Fingolfin


----------



## Walter

I really don't want to get involved in the discussion of the topic, for I think the matter has already been settled, but I thought I could drop in some background info on Tom I find amusing. Many of You will already know it, but maybe not all of You: 

_Among other stories begun but soon abandoned was the tale of Tom Bombadil, which is set in “The days of King Bonhedig” and describes a character who is clearly to be the hero of the tale: “Tom Bombadil was the name of one of the oldest inhabitants of the kingdom; but he was a hale and hearty fellow. Four foot high in his boots he was, and three feet broad. He wore a tall hat with a blue feather, his jacket was blue, and his boots were yellow.”
That was as far as the story ever reached on paper, but Tom Bombadil was a well-known figure in the Tolkien family, for the character was based on a Dutch doll that belonged to Michael. The doll looked very splendid with the feather in its hat, but John did not like it and one day stuffed it down the lavatory. Tom was rescued. and survived to become the hero of a poem by the children's father, "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil”. which was published in the Oxford Magazine in 1934. It tells of Tom's encounters with “Goldberry, the River-woman's daughter”, with the “Old Man Willow” which shuts him up in a crack of its bole (an idea, Tolkien once said, that probably came in part from Arthur Rackham's tree-drawings), with a family of badgers, and with a “Barrow-wight”, a ghost from a prehistoric grave of the type found on the Berkshire Downs not far from Oxford. By itself, the poem seems like a sketch for something longer, and when possible successors to The Hobbit were being discussed in 1937 Tolkien suggested to his publishers that he might expand it into a more substantial tale, explaining that Tom Bombadil was intended to represent “the spirit of the (vanishing) Oxford and Berkshire countryside”. This idea was not taken up by the publishers, but Tom and his adventures subsequently found their way into The Lord of the Rings._

Technically the first plot of JRRT that mentions "Tree Beard" is from August 1939 (TRotS, P381) which means he is a few years younger than Tom.

Another point that hasn't been mentioned yet (or that has escaped my attention ): Within the context of ME Tom is not considered a "creature", whereas Treebeard is, hence there is no contradiction between the first quotes of this thread...


----------



## Úlairi

This has already been touched on, no where does Tolkien refer to Ben-adar *not* being a 'creature'. For all we know, he could be.


----------



## christopher

*Sauron*

Ulairi, what do you think about the Sauron remark I posted???

Chr. Fingolfin


----------



## Úlairi

Sauron moved to Middle-earth after many beings. Melkor and some of the Valar. Bombadil and the Ents may have been a part of the Third Symphony. There were many 'creatures' roaming ME before Sauron went there I assure you. Therefore, my argument was not and is not redundant, as I took this into account.


----------



## Walter

> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *This has already been touched on, no where does Tolkien refer to Ben-adar not being a 'creature'. For all we know, he could be. *



Well, of course Tom - the Tom Bombadil we meet in the LotR - *is* a creature, Tolkien's creature...


----------



## christopher

Ulairi, I may be misinterpreting you, but by saying that Bombadil and the Ents may have been part of the 3rd symphony, are you saying that Sauron was not.
I think that the Maiar (Sauron being one) were already part of the music before it become a being in the void. My thought is that the Ents were created at the same time as the elves, therefore after the Maiar.
Having thought about it, wasn't Tom a Maia gone native, and therefore as old as Sauron probably. In that case it's all a matter who came to Middle-Earth first. He who came first is the oldest inhabitant of Middle-Earth.



P.S. How old would Goldberry be?

Chr. Fingolfin


----------



## Úlairi

> _Originally posted by christopher_
> *I think that the Maiar (Sauron being one) were already part of the music before it become a being in the void.*



Why do I waste my time? The Ainur were there in the beginning with Iluvatar, after he had created them and *then* they made the music.



> "There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Iluvatar; and *he made first the Ainur*, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him *before aught else was made*.



Get your facts right and go and read some books.



> _Originally posted by christopher_
> *...are you saying that Sauron was not.*



Of course I am. Sauron was one of the Ainur, therefore he was there before the music began, wasn't he? 



> _Originally posted by christopher_
> *My thought is that the Ents were created at the same time as the elves,*



We will never know. But I believe that they were created before. 



> _Originally posted by christopher_
> *...wasn't Tom a Maia gone native, and therefore as old as Sauron probably.*



Nope. I have clearly shown that Bombadil was neither Maiar, Valar or even Iluvatar for that matter on the previous page.



> _Originally posted by christopher_
> *He who came first is the oldest inhabitant of Middle-Earth.*



Obviously. But, we can neither clarify whether or not Bombadil was a 'living creature'. This is where the contradiction comes from whether or not it is a contradiction at all. If Bombadil was a living creature, there would be a contradiction in Tolkien's writings. If Bombadil was not a living creature, then there would be no contradiction. But, we will never know if Bombadil was or was not a living creature. And seeing as he is neither Iluvatar, Valar or Maiar, the only way we can deduct whether or not he is a living creature is to find out where Bombadil came from, but, we will never know that. So, christopher, could you and your mediocre intellect go somewhere else please? I am bored and I want this thread lain to rest.


----------



## Walter

_ Then Manwë awoke, and he went down to Yavanna upon Ezellohar, and he sat beside her beneath the Two Trees. And Manwë said: 'O Kementári, Eru hath spoken, saying: "Do then any of the Valar suppose that I did not hear all the Song, even the least sound of the least voice? Behold! When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared. For a time: while the Firstborn are in their power, and while the Secondborn are young." But dost thou not now remember, Kementári, that thy thought sang not always alone? Did not thy thought and mine meet also, so that we took wing together like great birds that soar above the clouds? That also shall come to be by the heed of Ilúvatar, and before the Children awake there shall go forth with wings like the wind the Eagles of the Lords of the West.' 
Then Yavanna was glad, and she stood up, reaching her arms towards the heavens, and she said: 'High shall climb the trees of Kementári, that the Eagles of the King may house therein!' 
But Manwë rose also, and it seemed that he stood to such a height that his voice came down to Yavanna as from the paths of the winds. 
'Nay,' he said, 'only the trees of Aule will be tall enough. In the mountains the Eagles shall house, and hear the voices of those who call upon us. But in the forests shall walk the Shepherds of the Trees.' _
(Of Aule and Yavanna)


----------



## Úlairi

And this means what Walter???


----------



## Walter

> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *And this means what Walter??? *



I just wanted to post what I have found concerning the first appearance of Ents on M-E in relation to the awaking of the firstborn - as it was part of the discussion in an earlier post - and from this quote it seems to me they came about the same time...


----------



## Úlairi

Ah! Now I see Walter! Good point. Hmmmm, makes sense.


----------



## Wonko The Sane

I'd just like to take a moment to refer to my last comment:

Who cares who's older!! Worry about more important things.

Like how Pippin could finish a whole pint.


----------



## Walter

Wonko,

some of Your comments are funny, others pure nonsense, some do even contribute a little to the discussions going on. Alas - the nonsense comments outnumber the others by far.

Do You think You could try to be a little more "productive" than "destructive"? I am sure a few members here would really appreciate that...


----------



## Wonko The Sane

Sure. I'll be productive.

Bombadil was older.
He was there before the trees.

The End.

How's that?


----------



## Walter

> _Originally posted by Wonko The Sane _
> *Sure. I'll be productive.
> 
> Bombadil was older.
> He was there before the trees.
> 
> The End.
> 
> How's that? *


sarcastic...

just...still not productive


----------



## Wonko The Sane

I'm not being sarcastic.
I'm perfectly serious.

I'm so straigtfaced my profile looks like a horizontal line.


----------



## Walter

> _Originally posted by Wonko The Sane _
> *I'm not being sarcastic.
> I'm perfectly serious.
> 
> I'm so straigtfaced my profile looks like a horizontal line. *


*shrugs*


----------



## pohuist

> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *
> Nope. I have clearly shown that Bombadil was neither Maiar, Valar or even Iluvatar for that matter on the previous page. *



Ulairi, you did not clearly show that Bombadil was neither Maiar, Valar or even Iluvatar. You just *presented an argument* to that effect. There are many arguments to the contrary. For example, the Encyclopedia of Arda provides a link to a very well (IMO) written and persuasive essay that argues otherwise.


----------



## Úlairi

pohuist! So nice to see you! Where ya been ol' buddy o' mine!!!



> _Originally posted by pohuist_
> *Ulairi, you did not clearly show that Bombadil was neither Maiar, Valar or even Iluvatar. You just presented an argument to that effect. There are many arguments to the contrary. For example, the Encyclopedia of Arda provides a link to a very well (IMO) written and persuasive essay that argues otherwise.*



Grond agreed with it, I cannot see why you can't! However, that is not the answer you are looking for. _The Encyclopaedia of Arda_ is a *'post-humous'* book in which not entirely everything is given a proper look into, such as the issue on Bombadil. However, I derived my 'argument' or 'theory' or whatever you wish to call it from J.R.R. Tolkien's publications. Therefore, my argument is far more iron-clad then yours.


----------



## Walter

Here's another statement of Tolkien that shows he intentionally left the reader in the uncertainty about Tom (from Letter 144):

_And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally)._


----------



## Rangerdave

*I agree with Pohuist*



> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> Grond agreed with it, I cannot see why you can't! I derived my 'argument' or 'theory' or whatever you wish to call it from J.R.R. Tolkien's publications. Therefore, my argument is far more iron-clad then yours.



But that is the crux of the biscuit is it not. Professor Tolkien was adamant in presenting Tom as an enigma. Very non-iron clad. However, Your arguements are sound. I do believe that you have reached the most likely correct assesment of the question. But while your conclusions are sound, poingnant and most probably correct: they are by no means difinitive. 

Defend your argument, I will defend it right along with you. I believe as you do on this one. Just allow that being right is much easier than proving you're right. Accept that other possibilities (however unlikely) may both exist and be of great worth.

The question of Tom has always been more a matter or faith than reason. And that, I believe is how both Tom and Tolkien would have wanted it.

RD


----------



## Úlairi

Couldn't agree more RD. Thankyou for the back-up. As for Walter, I knew of that Letter, even though I have not read _The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien_, Tolkien decribed Bombadil as an enigma, and an enigma he shall remain.


----------



## Walter

So now the matter is settled and we're all happy again...


Or...wait a moment...let's have a further look at what has been quoted before from the Sil:


> When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will *summon spirits from afar*, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared.



Now what could that mean?


----------



## Eomer Dinmention

I remember Treebeard saying something.

Have a look in the chapter where Pippin & Merry meet Treebeard.

Treebeard says something about, there are other ents that are older then himself


----------



## Elu Thingol

*Bombadil is older I HAVE PROOF*

Here is a quote directly from the 1st book that clearly states Bombadil is older

" 'Eh, What?' said Tom sitting up, and his eyes glinting in the gloom.'Don't you know my name yet? That's the only answer. Tell me, who are you, alone, yourself and nameless? But you are young and I am old. Eldest, that's what I am. Mark my words, my friends: Tom was here before the river and the TREES; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big people and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless-before the Dark Lord came from Outside.' " (The Fellowship of the Ring Chapter 7 pg.182 parag.3 authorized edition)

There are a number of references in this quote that would lead you to believe Tom is the oldest thing on middle-earth it says right in the quote he is older than the trees.


----------



## Úlairi

That quote has already been brought to my attention. In fact, that quote is how I derived the contradiction as in 'The White Rider' Gandalf the White says:



> "Treebeard is the oldest creature to walk under the sun of Middle-earth."



So, if Bombadil says that *he* is the oldest, and Gandalf the White says Treebeard/Fangorn is the oldest, then, who is the oldest. If you read through the whole thread Mithrandir2003, then you will find that throughout Tolkien's books there is no way to either prove or disprove a contradiction outlined here in Tolkien's works. 

**********_Post edited by Ancalagon. 
Ulairi, you have been warned before about making personal and insulting remarks to members regarding their contribution. Take this as a final warning as any more derogatory remarks will result in direct action being taken against you. All moderators are now aware of this warning._********


----------



## Walter

Welcome to this forum, Mithrandir 

We appreciate that You are taking part in the debate and, yes, You found a quote that is actually important on this topic. But the quote You presented, has already been posted by Gothmog at the very first page of this thread.


----------



## Elu Thingol

*oops sry*

Sorry about that I didn't read the whole first page only about half of it. Next time I'll be sure to read the whole thing. Once again sry.


----------



## Elu Thingol

I might be able to add something important though. Back a couple of pages in the debate it discusses wether Tom is living or not. I believe he is not living and this is why. The ring has power over all living things but it has no power over Tom in fact Tom has power over it, this would lead one to believe that Tom is not really living.


----------



## Úlairi

The fact that Tom *may* have not been living is a loophole for Tolkien to escape contradiction, although, we will never know it and will never be able to prove it.


----------



## Wonko The Sane

> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *pohuist! So nice to see you! Where ya been ol' buddy o' mine!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Grond agreed with it, I cannot see why you can't! However, that is not the answer you are looking for. The Encyclopaedia of Arda is a 'post-humous' book in which not entirely everything is given a proper look into, such as the issue on Bombadil. However, I derived my 'argument' or 'theory' or whatever you wish to call it from J.R.R. Tolkien's publications. Therefore, my argument is far more iron-clad then yours. *



I think the only thing iron-clad here is your ego and I'm-right-ness...


----------



## pohuist

> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *pohuist! So nice to see you! Where ya been ol' buddy o' mine!!!
> 
> Grond agreed with it, I cannot see why you can't! However, that is not the answer you are looking for. The Encyclopaedia of Arda is a 'post-humous' book in which not entirely everything is given a proper look into, such as the issue on Bombadil. However, I derived my 'argument' or 'theory' or whatever you wish to call it from J.R.R. Tolkien's publications. Therefore, my argument is far more iron-clad then yours. *



I've been very busy at work ond on vacation. It good to be back, though. There is no place like home.

I do not dispute Grond's (and yours) knowledge of Tolkien, but everybody has a right to their own opinion, and mine shouldn't necessarily concur with that of Grond. Getting to the point, you should be more attentive: I was referring to Encyclopaedia of Arda only to the extent that it *provides a link* to the essay. If that wasn't clear, I am sorry -- that essay is not a part of E.of A., it is a separate piece of work. The essay is post-humous and so is the EofA. However, The Encyclopaedia seems accurate enough and it itself does present points in both support and rebuke of your theory. I beleive that by 'Tolkien's publications' you mean his letter (correct me if I am wrong) in which he says that Bombadil is an 'intentional enigma'. This definition opens a door to many theories and arguments of what's Tom's origins are. While I recall another letter in which he said something to the effect that Tom *represents* the [dieing]spirit of the English Berkshire (not a quote, of course), I think this letter is earlier and writer's view of his material changes over time. But even if not, these two statements are not contradictory as mentioning of what someone represents is not necessarily a statements about his/her origins. I still think that you presented an argument (albeit, a good one) but NOT 'clearly shown'.


----------



## Úlairi

> _Originally posted by pohuist_
> *I do not dispute Grond's (and yours) knowledge of Tolkien, but everybody has a right to their own opinion, and mine shouldn't necessarily concur with that of Grond.*



I agree, I just wasn't expecting it, that's all pohuist.



> _Originally posted by pohuist_
> *Getting to the point, you should be more attentive:*



Uh-uh pohuist, I was attentive enough, you weren't clear on what you were saying. 



> _Originally posted by pohuist_
> *I was referring to Encyclopaedia of Arda only to the extent that it provides a link to the essay.*



Exactly, which is why I said my argument was more...



> _Originally posted by Ulairi_
> *"...iron-clad..."*



...then yours. (Someone just shot himself in the foot  )



> _Originally posted by pohuist_
> *...it is a separate piece of work.*



I know. 



> _Originally posted by pohuist_
> *However, The Encyclopaedia seems accurate enough and it itself does present points in both support and rebuke of your theory.*



I know, however, it is post-humous, whereas Tolkien's _Lord of the Rings_ was not. Therefore, as I have said, the _Encyclopaedia of Arda_ should not be believed as much as the thoughts of Tolkien in _The Lord of the Rings_.



> _Originally posted by pohuist_
> *I beleive that by 'Tolkien's publications' you mean his letter (correct me if I am wrong) in which he says that Bombadil is an 'intentional enigma'. This definition opens a door to many theories and arguments of what's Tom's origins are.*



And that's how the argument ended, at a stalemate. We will never know where Bombadil is from and if he was a 'living creature' or not. Therefore, Tolkien escaped contradiction via loopholes. 



> _Originally posted by pohuist_
> *...but NOT 'clearly shown'.*



It is probable that what I have said is the 'clearest' solution that you will find, and you will find that a lot of people would agree with me. _The Encyclopaedia of Arda_ does not give an insightful enough look into the enigmatic Tom Bombadil as _The Lord of the Rings_ does, where I derived my theory from.



> _Originally posted by Wonko the Sane_
> *"The only thing "iron-clad" is your ego."*



Well, at least I have a reason to be egocentric.


----------



## Wonko The Sane

That's a mouthful...
And a helluva a lot of quotes.

But a good point.


----------



## pohuist

> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *
> And that's how the argument ended, at a stalemate. We will never know where Bombadil is from and if he was a 'living creature' or not. Therefore, Tolkien escaped contradiction via loopholes.
> *


I never argued with that and I was clear enough on what I argue with 
All I was saying that you did not 'clearly show...' and that, in fact, it is impossible to say anything definitive about the origins of Tom. I am glad, you concede it, though


----------



## Úlairi

I conceded a stalemate, not defeat pohuist. Thanks for the compliment Wonko the Sane.


----------



## Wonko The Sane

Hey, when you take the time and energy to contstruct a well-developed argument you deserve the props.


----------



## Brent

*Re: Who is the oldest?*



> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *There is a contradiction as to who is the oldest creature on ME is. Here are a couple of quotes from 'The Lord of the Rings':
> 
> 
> On the next page it says:
> 
> These are the words of Elrond and Glorfindel. Later in the novel(s) Gandalf the White after being found for the first time by Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli:
> 
> Has Tolkien contradicted himself in his writings? ]
> 
> It doesn't matter. Your reading the works as if they're the washington post quoting what happened today. Tolkien was a student of anglo-saxon and the people of that time oft contradicted themselves. Old people were held in high respect for their memory of the things that were but often this was not always clear. what for you appears a contradiction may not be for others. i.e. you can say something was old and then you can say something was very old but you have no real concept of which is greater.*


----------



## pohuist

> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> 
> *I conceded a stalemate, not defeat pohuist.*
> 
> You REALLY should be more attentitve. My argument wasn't about who's the oldest and if Tom's living (in which you conceded stalemate). My argument was that you did not "clearly show that Tom could not be a Maia, a Vala or Illuvatar" as you claimed.
> 
> *We will never know where Bombadil is from.*
> 
> Exactly. And you said it yourself, thus, conceding defeat. So, who shot huimself in the foot?


----------



## Úlairi

> _Originally posted by pohuist_
> *You REALLY should be more attentitve. My argument wasn't about who's the oldest and if Tom's living (in which you conceded stalemate). My argument was that you did not "clearly show that Tom could not be a Maia, a Vala or Illuvatar" as you claimed.*



My apologies pohuist, I wasn't being attentive. It was late at night and well...you know the drill I'm sure. However, I believe that that argument of which I so carefully came up with *cannot* be proved beyond reasonable doubt, but it is the most viable solution to the problem, yes, I admit there are holes in it, but it is the best explanation I believe that anyone could come up with. 



> _Originally posted by pohuist_
> *Exactly. And you said it yourself, thus, conceding defeat. So, who shot huimself in the foot?*



I concede defeat, but only on the basis that *my* argument could not be proved beyond reasonable doubt, not by the fact that you defeated me yourself. Therefore, technically, I shot myself in the foot yes, but I believe it was a shot in the foot that showed a little verity in what I was saying.


----------



## Wonko The Sane

I should shoot MYSELF in the feet...

That would solve SOO many problems.


----------



## Úlairi

LOL Wonko. That was very funny...and true.


----------



## Wonko The Sane

Oh if you only knew...


----------



## Grond

Why has this argument continued on for additional pages? It was apparent over 3 pages ago that no rational determination could be made as to who was the oldest. The entire argument hinges on whether Tom is deemed a "living creature" or not. JRRT in his letters specifically states that he included Tom not because he really fit in with Middle-earth but because he (Tolkien) wanted to. Tom was a character Tolkien had previously developed and he simply found a place for him in the works. 

Tom was eldest, Tom was first...yada yada yada. Tom is an enigma who exists yet doesn't exist. On him the Ring has no effect. Nothing appears to hold power over him, not Barrow-wights, not Old-man Willow, not no stinkin Nazgul..... nothing. My opinion continues to be that Tom is something non-human from the mind of Eru. He ain't no Valar, he ain't no Maiar, he ain't no Elar, he ain't no man. I still think he's a Munchkin.


----------



## Walter

> _Originally posted by Grond _
> Why has this argument continued on for additional pages? It was apparent over 3 pages ago that no rational determination could be made as to who was the oldest.


Yes and no, I was hoping someone would "pick up" the quote from _Of Aule and Yavanna_ I gave earlier:


> When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared.


and


> 'Nay,' he said, 'only the trees of Aule will be tall enough. In the mountains the Eagles shall house, and hear the voices of those who call upon us. But in the forests shall walk the Shepherds of the Trees.'


for this IMO can only mean that the Ents like the Eagles are "spirits summoned from afar" which throws a different light at the topic.


----------



## Grond

Walter, Eagles of Manwe are Maia and the Ents are the creatures of Yavanna created by Eru at the request of Manwe on behalf of Yavanna. They are creatures of the earth and are therefore not from elsewhere. The Eagles are Ainur.


----------



## Walter

> _Originally posted by Grond _
> Walter, Eagles of Manwe are Maia and the Ents are the creatures of Yavanna created by Eru at the request of Manwe on behalf of Yavanna. They are creatures of the earth and are therefore not from elsewhere. The Eagles are Ainur.


Grond, this was exactly what I thought before I stumbled across said passage again and read it more carefully, but now I am no longer sure about it. 

Anyway, I have opened another thread in the Silmarillion Forum, maybe this is worth further discussion...


----------



## Úlairi

Grond, I couldn't agree more. I said that also. But a few ignorant people (not Walter and pohuist and Brent mind you), decided to keep my thread going a little further.


----------



## Wonko The Sane

*glowers*


----------



## Úlairi

*glowers back*


----------



## Wonko The Sane

Why are you so hostile all the time?!?


----------



## Walter

Maybe he can't resist the cute girlie you're hiding so well and is just being flirtatious... 

*ducks*


----------



## Wonko The Sane

*ponders this*

Hmm....
I can't decide if this is a good thing or a bad thing.

Probably not such a good thing since he is younger than my brother Wonko.


----------



## Úlairi

> _Originally posted by Walter _
> *Maybe he can't resist the cute girlie you're hiding so well and is just being flirtatious...
> 
> *ducks* *



Uh, no Walter, uncalled for I'm afraid!  

Wonko the Sane, for your information, according to some of the girls at my school, I am a Hugh Grant look-a-like, so, I like to think it is a good thing. How old is wonko?


----------



## Wonko The Sane

AAH! Hugh Grant!! He's the epitome of sexy Englishness...

AAH.

It's too bad you're so much younger than I am... 

My brother's 17.


----------



## Úlairi

Yeah, too bad.


----------



## Wonko The Sane

*laughs*


----------



## Úlairi

LOL.


----------



## Wonko The Sane

*giggles*


----------



## hobbitfriend

> _Originally posted by Grond _
> *I'm certainly not wise but I am old. Grond the Hammer of the Underworld was born in the year of our Lord 1954. I will be 48 in less than a month.
> 
> My birthday is available in my user profile BTW. *


Grond,
I have greatly enjoyed all your posts that I have seen so far. I am new to the forum but I must disagree with your characterization as old. I will buy old for oh say 95 or so. The forties? Hey that is merely Summertime shouldering on Fall. After all if you were a hobbit you would only just be a short ways beyond those irresponsible tweens. Keep on posting!


----------



## Úlairi

From what I've gathered from your posts hobbitfriend, is that you may prove a worthy adversary in the future.


----------



## Wonko The Sane

A worth adversary to you, Ulairi? You pick fights with everbody.

And anyway, you may find just any ol' person a worthy adversary, but let me assure you, I'd venture to guess that there are quite a few out there, myself included, who take you far less seriously.


----------



## Úlairi

I disagree, I believe many people take me very seriously.


----------



## Walter

*cough* *cough* *cough*

Hmmmmm, guess I caught a cold at diving...


----------



## Úlairi

Guess I won't take you seriously anymore then Walter.


----------



## ReadWryt

There has been protracted discussion in other forums and such that Bombadil might well be the physical manifestation of Manwë and that Tolkien had made mention of this, perhaps in the letter, but I have yet to find any reference to this idea anywhere...


----------



## Wonko The Sane

Ulairi can't you just play nice?


----------



## Walter

> Tom's leg is game, since home he came,
> And his bootless foot is lasting lame;



Hmmm, an angel with a lame foot, maybe a hoof...now where have we met this before?


----------



## Úlairi

> _Originally posted by ReadWryt _
> *There has been protracted discussion in other forums and such that Bombadil might well be the physical manifestation of Manwë and that Tolkien had made mention of this, perhaps in the letter, but I have yet to find any reference to this idea anywhere... *



How can this be so RW? In _The Lost Road_ Tolkien clearly states that the Valar (being strictly inclusive of Manwe) would not return to the Circles of the World until Melkor escapes the Void and Turin Turambar slays him. So, what's the deal. Can you get a few things that people have been saying on the other forums or just give me the link.


----------



## Bombadillodillo

*Bombadil, the eldest and fatherless*



> So, if Bombadil says that he is the oldest, and Gandalf the White says Treebeard/Fangorn is the oldest, then, who is the oldest. If you read through the whole thread Mithrandir2003, then you will find that throughout Tolkien's books there is no way to either prove or disprove a contradiction outlined here in Tolkien's works.




The answer is quite clear. Bombadil claims that he was before the trees or the coming of the Children of Illuvatar. Gandalf is the one who claims that Treebeard was the oldest living creature to walk in MiddleEarth. Has it occurred to anyone that Gandalf was mistaken in that assertion and not Tolkien? 

You forget that many at the Council of Elrond remarked that they had forgotten about Bombadil altogether and Gandalf, though Maia, does have memory slips. Must be from having taking on mortal flesh, shrinking mind to fit a little noggin. But perhaps it wasn't a slip at all. As unlikely as it may seem, perhaps Gandalf didn't know that Tom was before the trees or the fall of the first acorn (likely prior even to the first oak). Recall also that Gandalf said that when all was done he would like to have a conversation with Bombadil such as he had never had before. I take that to mean that he had't had time to spend in leisure with Bombadil and therefore the question of Bombadil's origin may not have come up. Gandalf is a rolling stone, Bombadil a stone grown over with moss. 

Whatever the reason, Gandalf erred not Tolkien.

Though I wonder whether Tolkien still didn't make a mistake. For if Bombadil was before the trees and the peoples of middleEarth, whatever was he doing? There was no one for him to talk to, nothing to observe, no lilies to gather nor no one for whom to gather. What tunes was Tom a learning in that desolate land?


----------



## Bombadillo

on the grey havans website, someone has made a rather extremely long explanation of what tom bombadil was, he says he is just the reader itself, it is a nice explanation, but its too bad that it takes you out of the story of ME....

but still, its worth reading

http://tolkien.cro.net/else/bbeier.html

ps: bombadillodillo, did I steal your name, if so, I'm terribly sorry


----------



## Lantarion

The mentioned Mr. Bombadillodillo has not been very...actively participant in these forums, that I have noticed anyway. So I'm sure it's alright. 
That is a good explanation, Gandalf 'messing up'. As unlikely as it seems, I suppose the greatest Istar of all the five might mess up now and again. 
It is impossible to say what Tom is exactly, but judging by his own words (which might be exaggerated, to entertain his guests), being around before the trees and therefore before Fangorn, it would seem that he was a secret Vala or Maia sent to overlook the creation of Arda. Hey, that's not a bad idea! Go me! But anyway, if Tom was around only moments prior to the creation of Arda there would have only been void and space. A Maia or Vala would undoubtedly be able to exist in such an environment.. But I seem to remember from the Silmarillion that when Arda was created all the lands were filled with grass, trees, rivers, mountains, etc. almost simultaneously. So Tom wouldn't have been alone for long, and maybe Melkor did not observe him when he advanced onto Arda in his wrath. Tom Bombadil, the Maia of Reassurance.


----------



## FINGOLFIN

*No Contradiction at all*

The problem here is that we must define what we are talking about. "Living" seems the key word here. 

Immortals do not die, thus may not necessarily be considered living. In the beginning, all of the Valar and Maiar seem to have been "created" at the same time, and immortal. Thus Sauron, Gandalf, etc..., would all likely be the same age. I personally would place Bombadil in that category. 

Treebeard, however, was living, because he would eventually die (as he mentions some of his kin do). Thus he may be the oldest of the "living" creatures without being contradictory.


----------



## Wonko The Sane

Seems like Fingol here has a point.

Obiously Gandalf posesses the qualities of life...or appears to. (Breathing, eating, singing, snogging and such...) As does Bombadil, but if they were truly immortal then they may not be classified in the same category as Treebeard.
However...Gandalf could apparently be killed...which I still don't understand as he was brought back to life but that's another thread...

I agree with Fingol that we COULD look at it that way...but there's no way we could know for sure...


----------



## Wonko The Sane

No problem, just don't expect this agreement thing to be habbit...if I think you're wrong...I'll flame you utterly.


----------



## FINGOLFIN

*Okay, but.....*

Have I mentioned I'm flame resistant, having been raised by Balrogs??


----------



## Wonko The Sane

No. Have I mentioned what a beast Glorfindel is?
He killed a Balrog...and since he and I are snogging, he'd kill you too...
If you displease me.


----------



## Morgaphry

*Who is Older? Bombadil or Treebeard?*

They both say that they are eldest, but which do you believe?

Morgaphry


----------



## gate7ole

Bombadil is older. He was here BEFORE the Stars and the Sun, BEFORE the Dark Lord came back from the Outer (which means before Melkor returned to destroy the lamps). As I understand it he was either created simultaneously with Arda, or he came (as a spirit, Vala, Maia or whatever you believe) during its construction.


----------



## Ponte

Tom Bombadill, for the same reasons that gate7ol has posted above.


----------



## Ithrynluin

Bom Tombadil.


----------



## Meriadoc

Yeah I'd say Tom Bombadil is the oldest. Obviously there were beings before Treebeard came to be what he is.


----------

