# Dol Guldur at the Time of the war of the Ring



## 1stvermont (Jan 29, 2021)

Was Dol Guldur populated by trolls? what sort of creatures resided there at the time of the war of the ring? was Tolkien specific? I don't have my LOTR copy hand.


----------



## Alcuin (Jan 30, 2021)

There were certainly Orcs at Dol Guldur. I don’t recall any mention of Trolls, but I see no reason why they could not have been there, too. Dol Guldur was under the command of Khamûl the Nazgûl, who normally kept another Nazgûl with him. There were large spiders in the forest about the place, spawn of Shelob, I suppose; but there is very little other information we are given, as far as I am aware. 

In regards to the Nazgûl: I have tried to count the Nazgûl present during the attack on and siege of Minas Tirith, but without success. In addition, there is the Nazgûl that appeared on the battlements of Cirith Ungol just as Frodo and Sam escaped: that was shortly before the Witch-king was killed on the Pelennor Field, and the conversation of the two Orcs sent to track Frodo and Sam whom they overheard arguing indicated that Nazgûl remained at Cirith Ungol for some time after. Tolkien’s notes (cited in _Reader’s Companion_, if memory serves) indicate that Sauron normally kept one Nazgûl with him at Barad-dûr. So there should be at least four (2 at Dol Guldur, 1 at Cirith Ungol, 1 at Barad-dûr) “in reserve”, as it were, leaving five in the battle against Minas Tirith, including the Witch-king. 

*Three attacks were launched against Lórien from Dol Guldur,* and I suppose these were all commanded by a Nazgûl as well (probably Khamûl). According to the Tale of Years (Appendix B in _Return of the King_, these were on
March 11 (when Gollum found Frodo and Sam asleep and nearly repented),
March 15 (the day of the Battle of the Pelennor), and
March 22 (the “dreadful nightfall”, whatever that means, the day Sam led Frodo off the road near Carach Angren, where the Orcs fought to get into Udûn, to begin their final journey to Mount Doom).
But all eight surviving Nazgûl were present at the Black Gate when Aragorn and his Host of the West approached.


----------



## 1stvermont (Jan 30, 2021)

Alcuin said:


> There were certainly Orcs at Dol Guldur. I don’t recall any mention of Trolls, but I see no reason why they could not have been there, too. Dol Guldur was under the command of Khamûl the Nazgûl, who normally kept another Nazgûl with him. There were large spiders in the forest about the place, spawn of Shelob, I suppose; but there is very little other information we are given, as far as I am aware.
> 
> In regards to the Nazgûl: I have tried to count the Nazgûl present during the attack on and siege of Minas Tirith, but without success. In addition, there is the Nazgûl that appeared on the battlements of Cirith Ungol just as Frodo and Sam escaped: that was shortly before the Witch-king was killed on the Pelennor Field, and the conversation of the two Orcs sent to track Frodo and Sam whom they overheard arguing indicated that Nazgûl remained at Cirith Ungol for some time after. Tolkien’s notes (cited in _Reader’s Companion_, if memory serves) indicate that Sauron normally kept one Nazgûl with him at Barad-dûr. So there should be at least four (2 at Dol Guldur, 1 at Cirith Ungol, 1 at Barad-dûr) “in reserve”, as it were, leaving five in the battle against Minas Tirith, including the Witch-king.
> 
> ...




Thanks for the info. I am looking at having a drawing made for a project of mine that is a depiction of The assault on Dol Guldor by the elves of Lothlorien and I wanted to get an accurate idea of what kind of creatures were there.


----------



## Alcuin (Jan 31, 2021)

I’m not sure the Elves “assaulted” Dol Guldur. The Tale of Years has a passage immediately following the entry for 25 March III 3019 that reads,
After the fall of the Dark Tower … fear and despair fell upon [Sauron’s] servants and allies. Three times Lórien had been assailed from Dol Guldur… [T]he assaults were driven back; and when the Shadow passed, Celeborn came forth and led the host of Lórien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits…​Following this is a dated entry for March 28,
Celeborn crosses Anduin; destruction of Dol Guldur begun.​I could be wrong – other views of the matter would certainly be consistent with the bare material Tolkien gives us – but I expect that, in light of the “fear and despair [that] fell upon [Sauron’s] servants and allies,” most of the denizens of Dol Guldur fled. The Nazgûl were no more, the Orcs knew they were doomed if they dared battle Celeborn and the Elves, and as for other creatures that might have populated the place, I suspect they hid, concealed themselves, or slunk off into the woods for safety. 

The passage, “Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits,” is reminiscent of the description of Lúthien’s destroying Tol-in-Gaurhoth after Huan the Hound defeated Werewolf Sauron (_Silmarillion_, “Beren and Lúthien”):
Lúthien took mastery of the isle and … stood upon the bridge and declared her power. The spell was loosed that bound stone to stone, and the gates were thrown down, and the walls opened, and the pits laid bare…​All the more so since the barrier that surrounded Lórien seems patterned upon the Girdle of Melian set about Doriath by Galadriel’s aunt-by-marriage, it seems appropriate that Galadriel would also follow the course of her kinswoman, Lúthien, in laying waste to Sauron’s tower.


----------



## 1stvermont (Jan 31, 2021)

Alcuin said:


> I’m not sure the Elves “assaulted” Dol Guldur. The Tale of Years has a passage immediately following the entry for 25 March III 3019 that reads,
> ​After the fall of the Dark Tower … fear and despair fell upon [Sauron’s] servants and allies. Three times Lórien had been assailed from Dol Guldur… [T]he assaults were driven back; and when the Shadow passed, Celeborn came forth and led the host of Lórien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits…​​Following this is a dated entry for March 28,
> ​Celeborn crosses Anduin; destruction of Dol Guldur begun.​​I could be wrong – other views of the matter would certainly be consistent with the bare material Tolkien gives us – but I expect that, in light of the “fear and despair [that] fell upon [Sauron’s] servants and allies,” most of the denizens of Dol Guldur fled. The Nazgûl were no more, the Orcs knew they were doomed if they dared battle Celeborn and the Elves, and as for other creatures that might have populated the place, I suspect they hid, concealed themselves, or slunk off into the woods for safety.
> 
> ...




Very good. I think you could be right. Perhaps after the failed assault, the orcs had fled in various ways. I'll have to dig into my people of ME.

So without consulting myself LOTR or the Peoples [both downstairs I am really lazy] and trusting in a quick google search which can never lead anyone astray, it seems others interpret the following to describe a battle. 

''They _took _Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed.''









Fall of Dol Guldur


The Fall of Dol Guldur was the epic conflict that culminated the Rhovanion campaign of the War of the Ring....




tolkiengateway.net












Battle of Dol Guldur


The Battle of Dol Guldur, or Fall of Dol Guldur, was one of the battles of the north fought during the War of the Ring. The Elves of Lothlórien and Mirkwood decided to attack and destroy the last remaining fortress of Sauron's servants in Rhovanion: Dol Guldur. The Nazgûl who guarded the castle...




lotr.fandom.com






It does seem to imply the forest had not been cleansed nor Dol Guldor until after it was taken by the elves and Galadriel finished it off by destroying the towers. I'll have a look at the sources hopefully tomorrow.


----------



## Olorgando (Feb 1, 2021)

Alcuin said:


> ... Three times Lórien had been assailed from Dol Guldur… [T]he assaults were driven back; …​


However Galadriel's probably Nenya-enhanced defensive powers worked (JRRT very sensibly refuses to give the slightest "technical detail", as he had refused to do for the probable predecessor in many ways, the Girdle of Melian - which must have been vastly more effective, as Melian was probably one of the most powerful Maia, surpassing even First-Age Sauron), the assaults were certainly (also) driven back by more mundane measures, meaning weaponry. Those great war-bows of Lórien. To quote from the penultimate chapter of "Fellowship":

"Suddenly the great bow of Lórien sang. Shrill went the arrow from the elven-string. Frodo looked up. Almost above him the winged shape swerved. There was a harsh croaking scream, as it fell out of the air, vanishing down into the gloom of the eastern shore."

Now I'm sure the Lothlórien Elves had a lot more practice with their bows than Legolas had, only receiving his from Galadriel as the Fellowship left. The assaults on Lórien by Dol Guldur must have gotten increasingly desperate (maybe a "they *must* be running out of arrows!" delusion). And since all eight remaining Nazgûl flamed out at the destruction of Barad-dûr, that event destroyed the commander that Alcuin surmises for Dol Guldur, Khamûl.

Supreme commander destroyed. Garrison commander destroyed. Those nasties that turned unnumbered of your fellow-combatants into Orc-pincushions even when those two biggies were still around now descending on your badly-depleted garrison in a decidedly non-forgiving mood. What's a self-respecting non-suicidal Orc to do? (I realize that both hyphenated adjectives are highly dubious in the light of JRRT's writings, but at least some low-level commanders - think Shagrat and Gorbag at the end of The Two Towers - were capable of a bit of rational thinking, sometimes. Not that it did them a whole lot of good, as Sam noticed quite a few pages later.)


----------



## Akhôrahil (Feb 2, 2021)

1stvermont said:


> So without consulting myself LOTR or the Peoples [both downstairs I am really lazy] and trusting in a quick google search which can never lead anyone astray, it seems others interpret the following to describe a battle.
> 
> ''They _took _Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed.''
> 
> ...


I have to damit that I also sometimes use the internet as a starting point to determine in which works of Tolkien and in which chapters I could start to look things up. I recommend to use henneth-annun.net , because it contains almost exclusively quotes from Tolkien's works that are organized in a systematical manner and because it has a search function and links to related entries. I have also been happy with the Encyclopedia of Arda, but some entries are very short and so not contain many things that could be found about the subject in Tolkien's works. I recommend not to rely on lotr.fandom and not to rely on Tolkien Gateway. Both contain rephrased content that often does not contain references and is sometimes wrong. I also recommend not to rely on the articles or books by Codex Regius (= Lalaith = Andreas Möhn), because the references are not very detailed (e.g. no page numbers, not even the numbers of footnotes or of titles of sections within a chapter, no references to which "Book" and chapter in The Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers or The Return of the King), which makes it more diffcult to check claims that are made in them and because the references are ain the form of abbreviations that are not always easily self-explanatory or dass to remember. In addition, some claims have been impossible to find in the sources which are indicated as a reference there (.e.g the existence of two descendants of classical Adunaic in Middle-earth, which would means a second descendant other than Westron and basing that on the Notion Club Papers).


----------



## 1stvermont (Feb 2, 2021)

Akhôrahil said:


> I have to damit that I also sometimes use the internet as a starting point to determine in which works of Tolkien and in which chapters I could start to look things up. I recommend to use henneth-annun.net , because it contains almost exclusively quotes from Tolkien's works that are organized in a systematical manner and because it has a search function and links to related entries. I have also been happy with the Encyclopedia of Arda, but some entries are very short and so not contain many things that could be found about the subject in Tolkien's works. I recommend not to rely on lotr.fandom and not to rely on Tolkien Gateway. Both contain rephrased content that often does not contain references and is sometimes wrong. I also recommend not to rely on the articles or books by Codex Regius (= Lalaith = Andreas Möhn), because the references are not very detailed (e.g. no page numbers, not even the numbers of footnotes or of titles of sections within a chapter, no references to which "Book" and chapter in The Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers or The Return of the King), which makes it more diffcult to check claims that are made in them and because the references are ain the form of abbreviations that are not always easily self-explanatory or dass to remember. In addition, some claims have been impossible to find in the sources which are indicated as a reference there (.e.g the existence of two descendants of classical Adunaic in Middle-earth, which would means a second descendant other than Westron and basing that on the Notion Club Papers).



I agree with everything you have said. Thanks for the links and ideas. I don't generally use the internet for support. I was just being very, very lazy. That is why i made the little joke about the internet never leading one astray.


----------



## Olorgando (Feb 2, 2021)

1stvermont said:


> ... That is why i made the little joke about the internet never leading one astray.


My by now seven-year *private* Internet experience is that except for very few exceptions, if you've lost your way already, the Internet is way down the list of go-to-places to remedy this. 🤢


----------

