# How old is Gollum and how long did he have the ring?



## Úlairi

Here is a copule of quotes from 'Appendix B: The Tale of Years':



> "*2941*: Thorin Oakenshield and Gandalf visit Bilbo in the Shire. *Bilbo meets Smeagol-Gollum and finds the Ring*."





> "*March 25, 3019*: The Host is surrounded on the Slag-hills. Frodo and Samwise reach the Sammath Naur. *Gollum seizes the Ring and falls in the Cracks of Doom*. Downfall of Barad-dur and passing of Sauron."



After 78 years, Gollum is still alive when he is mortal, and does not have the Ring. Nearly a century. He did not die of old age mind you.

Here is another quote from 'Appendix B: The Tale of Years'



> "*2463*: The White Council is formed. *About this time Deagol the Stoor finds the One Ring, and is murdered by Smeagol*."



Gollum had the One Ring for 478 years, close to half a millennia. Here is the quote that asks the question. From 'The Shadow of the Past':



> "'A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, *until at last every minute is a weariness*.'"



So, Gollum has the Ring for 478 years. A hobbit or Stoor in Gollum's case live to the average age of around 100. So, Gollum lived five-and-a-half times the age of his people. And we don't even know how old he was when he murdered Deagol and stole the Ring! He could have been 600 years old when he died! Now, the above quote says:



> ...until at last every minute is a weariness...



So, wouldn't Gollum be weary after the Ring was taken from him? Bilbo says that he felt relief once he gave up the Ring and he only had the One for 60 years! Bilbo had it only 13% of the time that Gollum owned it! Wouldn;t Gollum be so 'weary' that he would just want to die? Then why did he pursue the Fellowship and then Frodo and Sam right until Sammath Naur? He didn't seem very 'weary' to me. Was it his blind lust for the One that drove him on and kept him alive? How is this possible, he was 555-? years old at this time! So, if every last minute was a 'weariness' for Gollum, then once he gave up the Ring why didn't he just coil up somewhere and die?


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## Lantarion

I don't think the lack of the Ring caused the weariness, but the wieldership of it. When you wore the Ring you became ensnared by its corruption, and only when wearing it you would feel some sort of 'weariness'. After all, although Bilbo only had the Ring for a fraction of the time Gollum did, he said he was elieved to get rid of it, which implies that a great *weariness* had been lifted.
And I don't think Tolkien meant for us to take the term 'weariness' so literally. I believe he only meant that every miniute was aloof torture of the mind. Gollum certainly wasn't 'weary': he caught little Orcs and ate the things! 
And Gollum followed the Fellowship so far because his thoughts were bound to the Ring, and he was basically hooked on it. He couldn't bear living without it, so he looked for it until he found it (and fell to an incinerating death, poor thing).


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## Rangerdave

Perhaps not a weariness of the body, but of the mind. The Smeagol fans will probably crucify me for this, but gollum had (with the rings help) fairly well lost his mind after hiding under the mountains for so long. 

As for life span, his seems to have been increased by a factor of 5. But that may raise an interesting point. I don't have my books at the moment, but how Long did Smeagol and Bilbo live without the rings help (both before and after) Could the amount of time that these two lived without ring-aid equal out to their roughly normal lifespan?

Just a theory. feel free to shoot holes in it.
RD


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## Úlairi

> _Originally posted by Pontifex_
> *I don't think the lack of the Ring caused the weariness, but the wieldership of it.*



Well said Pontifex, but it doesn't destroy my argument. After 500 or so years, Gollum would have been so 'weary' that he would have wanted to die, even if he felt as though a great weight was lifted off of his shoulders. He still wanted the Ring, so the 'weariness' didn't bother Gollum too much otherwise he would have been happy to lose the Ring, Bilbo was. *Also, Gollum was so old that when he lost the Ring he lost his immortality, therefore he should have aged considerably (like Bilbo) and died, but he did not. Why is this?




Originally posted by Pontifex
And I don't think Tolkien meant for us to take the term 'weariness' so literally.

Click to expand...





...until at last every minute is a weariness...

Click to expand...


Sounds very 'literal' to me Pontifex. 




Originally posted by Pontifex
And Gollum followed the Fellowship so far because his thoughts were bound to the Ring, and he was basically hooked on it. He couldn't bear living without it, so he looked for it until he found it...

Click to expand...


I think we can confirm the fact that Gollum was driven by a certain 'blind lust' for the Ring. But that is irrelevant to the argument as I am interested in the fact that Gollum should be long dead before the Fellowship had even left Rivendell.*


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## Úlairi

> _Originally posted by Rangerdave_
> *Perhaps not a weariness of the body, but of the mind.*



Perhaps, but mind or body my argument still stands.



> _Originally posted by Rangerdave_
> *The Smeagol fans will probably crucify me for this...*



Who cares about them, lets just debate.



> _Originally posted by Rangerdave_
> *...how Long did Smeagol and Bilbo live without the rings help (both before and after) Could the amount of time that these two lived without ring-aid equal out to their roughly normal lifespan?*



Hmmm, interesting theory RD. Here is what you are looking for. From 'Appendix B: The Tale of Years':



> "*2890*: Bilbo is born in the Shire."



Bilbo left for Valinor in the year 3019, therefore he was still alive and was at the ripe old age of 129 when he left. But with your thoery, here is the answer. 



> "*2941*: Thorin Oakenshield and Gandalf visit Bilbo in the Shire. *Bilbo meets Smeagol-Gollum and finds the Ring.*"



It then says:



> "*3001*: *Bilbo's farewell feast*. Gandalf suspects his ring to be the One Ring. The guard on the Shire is doubled. Gandalf seeks news of Gollum and calls on the help of Aragorn."



Bilbo left the Ring behind at his farewell feast. So, Bilbo had the Ring for 60 years and lived 129. With simple maths he lived 69 years of his long life without the Ring. No where near the average. We cannot apply your theory to Gollum unless we make educated guesses. Gollum lost the Ring in TA 2941 and died at Mount Doom in TA 3019, so he lived 78 years after he lost it. Gollum would have have to have been 22 years of age if he was going to live out the hobbit average, and, I must concede that this is possible if not probable RD. A good theory. So, if your theory is correct for argument's sake RD, what is the point in it?



> _Originally posted by Rangerdave_
> *Just a theory. feel free to shoot holes in it.*



I would if it had any relevance to the thread!  No, but on a more serious note, your theory does not work on Bilbo RD.


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## Rangerdave

No big deal. As I said, I don't have my books right now (on loan) or I would have shot holes in my theory myself

Good job though.
enjoy

RD


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## Úlairi

> _Originally posted by Rangerdave _
> *No big deal. As I said, I don't have my books right now (on loan) or I would have shot holes in my theory myself
> 
> Good job though.
> enjoy
> 
> RD *



Thanks RD, yes you probably wouldn't have posted the theory if you had had your books with you. I am still awaiting Grond to post in here so that he and I can debate this because thus far I have nailed everyone who has posted back. I honestly thought that this thread would really take off. Perhaps the topic daunts a few people and they do not wish to give opinions. Perhaps because of the fact that I am nailing them?


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## Minas

*Another Nail in the coffin*

Ulari stone the crows, fair dinkum I've found the loophole. Sauron. He held the ring for ages, Isildur permanently stopped his nail biting habit and yet he still came back from the ether many thousand years later. I think he was weary all the time but driven to get that wearisome piece of jewelery.


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## DRavisher

Perhaps Smeagol had had the ring for so long that the effects of it would not go away, not at once anyway. 
And it would seem like Sauron wanted Smeagol to get away, perhaps he had something to do with Smeagols long life. Sauron knew that Smeagol would track down the ring, and that he would keep bothering the one who carried it, and Sauron may have thought that to help his cause.


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## Zale

Perhaps (and this is a little extreme) he was being kept alive by the Valar (or someone comparable) so he could achieve his end, namely falling into Mount Doom with the Ring.


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## Grond

> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *...I would if it had any relevance to the thread!  No, but on a more serious note, your theory does not work on Bilbo RD. *


And how could you possibly know if the theory worked on Bilbo good Ulari? Bilbo and Frodo travelled to Valinor and no date of their death is given. Bilbo could have lived another 30 or 40 years in Valinor. We'll never know. The rationale behind RD's theory is that the Ring would prolong life only during the time it was in one's possession. This theory is not disproved, just unproveable. 

My own theory begins with a question for you Ulari. Have you ever been weary? I mean beat down to the bottom of your being weary? I think probably not....yet. You are too young. My point is that it is possible to be weary beyond imagination and still accomplish great and wondrous things. Gollum was weary. Each and every day were filled with two things only. 1) Finding food. 2) Finding the Ring. He lived a thoroughly despicable life even after he lost the Ring and was weary beyond caring. I will research your thread and come up with quotes to prove my point later. 

The game is on!!


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## Úlairi

> _Originally posted by Grond_
> *The game is on!!*



It sure is. Now!



> _Originally posted by Grond_
> *Bilbo and Frodo travelled to Valinor and no date of their death is given. Bilbo could have lived another 30 or 40 years in Valinor.*



I disagree. The idea that the Valar deliberately prolonged both Bilbo's and Frodo's lives when they resided at Valinor keeps coming across to me as a true fact. It is not written, just implied by the author IMO, therefore, that's why I concluded that RD's theory was irrelevant. 



> _Originally posted by Grond_
> *This theory is not disproved, just unproveable.*



Maybe so. But read what I posted above because that is what I believe. We could make a whole new thread on the topic. 



> _Originally posted by Grond_
> *My point is that it is possible to be weary beyond imagination and still accomplish great and wondrous things.*



Give me an example. As for all to those who posted above, I have not disregarded your arguments as they are all quite valid, I'm just arguing with Grond.  



> _Originally posted by Grond_
> *I will research your thread and come up with quotes to prove my point later.*



I look forward to it.


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## Merry

I took Gollums weariness to mean that his life was devoid of all meaning and purpose except to live for the ring. He was so consumed with it's power that his life must have been one big torment. To die would have seemed a blessing but that was not an option as the ring kept him alive!

This torment would have carried Gollum across thousands of leagues in pursuit of his precious although he was weary.

Although that is just my opinion, I would like someone to explain something else to me, why didn't Gollum disappear and turn into a Raith after keeping the ring so long?? I thought the ring took full control over the bearer until they no longer remained human??

You have some interesting arguements Ulairi!


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## Úlairi

> _Originally posted by Merry_
> *I took Gollums weariness to mean that his life was devoid of all meaning and purpose except to live for the ring.*



Perhaps so, but without it Gollum was mortal once more. Therefore, my argument is based on the fact as to why did he not die? 



> _Originally posted by Merry_
> *...why didn't Gollum disappear and turn into a Raith after keeping the ring so long??*



Simply because Gollum did not use the Ring too much. It was dark in the Underground Lake and he did not need the Ring to do his fishing much. The Ring poisoned his mind from afar. Therefore showing how powerful the One Ring was! 



> _Originally posted by Ulairi_
> *You have some interesting arguements Ulairi!*



I know.


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## Merry

Yeah true, if he aged as rapidly as Bilbo did while in Rivendell Gollum should have kicked the bucket way before he reached Mordor with Frodo.

So what is your answer to this then Ulairi, you are dismissing everyone elses ideas but not coming up with a suitable answer!!


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## YayGollum

In answering the original question, why didn't he just coil up and die, I will say that he's too cool to die!


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## Grond

Ulari, here are some answers.

1) Frodo and Bilbo (and eventually Samwise) all went to Valinor where they were healed of all worldy wounds and hurt. The Valar did not increase their life span (except in the healing of their minds and bodies). They continued to be mortal and would and did eventually die. This is from the Letters of J. R. R. T. and I will give you the exact quote when I get to the house.

2) You wanted an example of weariness. Here it is.
A man is married to a woman for 30 years. He has always loved her. He will always love her. He treats her like a queen, nay a goddess. She leaves him for another man. Without warning, she is jerked from his life and, unlike death (where she's gone), she continues to live in bliss with someone else. 

For that man, each and every day becomes a weariness that is unbearable... almost. The man has three children who depend on him. The children make the weariness bearable. Tho the man yearns for the quiet and solititude of death, his obligation keeps him from entering its tranquil darkness. 

Gollum was like the man who had lost his wife, but his wife had not left him for someone else (at least as far as he knew). He viewed that someone else had stolen it. So, his weariness was there but was tempered by his desire to REGAIN that which he lost. His weariness became bearable because his whole being was put into finding that which he lost. 

I hope this gets the message across.

Finally, it is not fair to compare Bilbo and Gollum. Gollum held the Ring for hundreds of years while Bilbo had it much less. The prolonged effects of the Ring would be more significant in Gollum than in Bilbo.

P.S. I know I have given you no quotes yet... but I will.


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## Úlairi

> _Originally posted by Grond_
> *Frodo and Bilbo (and eventually Samwise) all went to Valinor where they were healed of all worldy wounds and hurt. The Valar did not increase their life span (except in the healing of their minds and bodies). They continued to be mortal and would and did eventually die. This is from the Letters of J. R. R. T. and I will give you the exact quote when I get to the house.*



Perhaps so, but it doesn't win the argument for you Grond, and I patiently await the quotes from you. 



> _Originally posted by Grond_
> *A man is married to a woman for 30 years. He has always loved her. He will always love her. He treats her like a queen, nay a goddess. She leaves him for another man. Without warning, she is jerked from his life and, unlike death (where she's gone), she continues to live in bliss with someone else.
> 
> For that man, each and every day becomes a weariness that is unbearable... almost. The man has three children who depend on him. The children make the weariness bearable. Tho the man yearns for the quiet and solititude of death, his obligation keeps him from entering its tranquil darkness.*



A good example, but not quite the one I was looking for. You have forgotten the crucial point in my argument: age. Gollum was so old that:



> _Originally posted by Merry_
> *...if he aged as rapidly as Bilbo did while in Rivendell Gollum should have kicked the bucket way before he reached Mordor with Frodo.*



Merry's post says exactly what I mean, just a little in layman's terms that's all. 



> _Originally posted by Grond_
> *Finally, it is not fair to compare Bilbo and Gollum.*



Why not? They were both of the Periannath, they had nearly the same anatomy I imagine.



> _Originally posted by Grond_
> *Gollum held the Ring for hundreds of years while Bilbo had it much less. The prolonged effects of the Ring would be more significant in Gollum than in Bilbo.*



_To quote the good Grond_


> You've dug yourself a hole, care to jump in?



Exactly, so why didn't Gollum perish when the Ring had a much larger effect? He lived longer, therefore, using logic, he should've died sooner, don't you agree? Shouldn't Gollum have perished sooner if he had had the Ring for so long? I should think so. It's completely logical, and no one can argue against logic, not even you Grond.



> _Originally posted by Grond_
> *P.S. I know I have given you no quotes yet... but I will.*



I should hope so.


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## Úlairi

Grond, why hast thou forsaken my thread? I thought it was going to be a hit!?


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## christopher

This is my first time here, so what I say may have been said in the past, I dunno.
My view is that Gollum's vigour in life was not because of the fact that he posessed the ring, it was It's existance. As long as Gollum posessed It, his life was stretched out like butter spread over too much bread (as Bilbo said). As soon as the Ring left him he started his life as he might have lived it as Smeagol. Smeagol was very young when he found the ring. After he lost the ring his normal life started again, so the sixty-odd years which followed might just have been his normal life -hobbits can live more than a hundred years- only strengthened by his lust for the Ring and perhaps It's mere existance.
Christopher Fingolfin


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## Merry

Intersting idea, but why didn't that rule apply to Bilbo then? Why didn't he age more slowly as if starting his 'missed' years again??

Welcome to the forum by the way!


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## YayGollum

Yay chris!


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## christopher

Hi Meriadoc B.

I wouldn't know why he didn't age more slowly after the Ring left him, didn't Bilbo age normally for a hobbit his age?
But you may be right. All I can say is that Smeagol posessed the ring six times longer that Bilbo did, and used it more often. Perhapsss he couldn't resissst the Ring the way Bilbo could, being made of a sterner stuff than even Gandalf could have guessed. Perhaps some of the slowliness of the Ring was left in Smeagol. Meaning: Bilbo aged normal and Smeagol slow.
Christopher Fingolfin


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## YayGollum

Nah. I'll go with the scary Merry person. Chris, know how to work PM's?


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## shadowfax_g

> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *
> Exactly, so why didn't Gollum perish when the Ring had a much larger effect? He lived longer, therefore, using logic, he should've died sooner, don't you agree? Shouldn't Gollum have perished sooner if he had had the Ring for so long? I should think so. It's completely logical, and no one can argue against logic, not even you Grond.
> *


Stretched life is not simply an effect but rather a curse by the Ring as the bearer must live a weary life only to slave the Ring.
My logic is, the longer a bearer have slaved the Ring, the more time it would take for him to escape from its curse. So Gollum would have lived longer than Bilbo if he had not fallen, I think.

Think Arwen who lived rather longer life than a usual human even after her decision to be mortal. I reckon it is because she had been receiving the grace of immortality for such a long time so it could not cease quickly. Why won't it apply for a curse?

Anyway, it's just my thought.


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## Beleg Strongbow

> _Originally posted by shadowfax_g _
> *
> Stretched life is not simply an effect but rather a curse by the Ring as the bearer must live a weary life only to slave the Ring.
> My logic is, the longer a bearer have slaved the Ring, the more time it would take for him to escape from its curse. So Gollum would have lived longer than Bilbo if he had not fallen, I think.
> 
> Think Arwen who lived rather longer life than a usual human even after her decision to be mortal. I reckon it is because she had been receiving the grace of immortality for such a long time so it could not cease quickly. Why won't it apply for a curse?
> 
> Anyway, it's just my thought. *



Yes my thoughts exactly. Welcome chris!! Although im not to sure about Arwen i agree that Bilbo would get rid of the effects many times quicker though.


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## Úlairi

> _Originally posted by shadowfax_g _
> *
> Stretched life is not simply an effect but rather a curse by the Ring as the bearer must live a weary life only to slave the Ring.
> My logic is, the longer a bearer have slaved the Ring, the more time it would take for him to escape from its curse. So Gollum would have lived longer than Bilbo if he had not fallen, I think.
> 
> Think Arwen who lived rather longer life than a usual human even after her decision to be mortal. I reckon it is because she had been receiving the grace of immortality for such a long time so it could not cease quickly. Why won't it apply for a curse?
> 
> Anyway, it's just my thought. *





> ]_Originally posted by shadowfax_g_
> *Stretched life is not simply an effect but rather a curse by the Ring as the bearer must live a weary life only to slave the Ring.*



Yes, I agree it is a curse, but Bilbo said he felt as though he had 'felt a burden being lifted from his shoulders' when he gave up the One and that 'he was ready to age' or something along the lines of. So, why didn't Gollum, if, your theory is right, why didn't the so-called 'curse' leave him also. And don't go and tell me because he had the Ring longer as you have no proof to tell me otherwise.



> _Originally posted by shdowfax_g_
> *So Gollum would have lived longer than Bilbo if he had not fallen, I think.*



That's not sensibel logic, shadowfax_g. Gollum had the Ring longer than Bilbo, his life was prolonged much more than Bilbo's, and using simple logic we can quite easily deduct that Gollum would have perished much quicker than Bilbo. 



> _Originally posted by shadowfax_g_
> *Think Arwen who lived rather longer life than a usual human even after her decision to be mortal. I reckon it is because she had been receiving the grace of immortality for such a long time so it could not cease quickly.*



An extremely good point shadowfax_g, however, let's not bring an immortal being who chose to be mortal into the equation. Look at Elros, he lived 500 years as a mortal. However, they had been immortal all their lives and then decided to become mortal. Gollum was mortal to begin with, he murdered his cousin for an object that bestowed upon him immortality, it was taken from him after 500 years, therefore he should have died, end of story.


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## christopher

Gollum, I wouldn't even know what a PM is. 
Chr. F.

P.S. It might take some time before I can reply, since it is 11:05 and I've just started work.

P.P.S. I'll reply on the Arwen bit though in a while.


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## christopher

Gollum's fate was bound up with the Ring. And the Ring needed him as well, though It left him. When Bilbo arrived at the fire, the Ring sensed It's fatal mistake and chose another bearer, the most likely one, one who had seved him for many years, and -being so close to Sauron his master- could serve him even better, for being less clever than Frodo and more easy to persuade to It's will, Gollum would surely take it to Sauron.

Greetings,

Chr. Fingolfin


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## christopher

New -and stupid- as I am, I just posted a reply in the wrong forum, sorry!

Chr. Fingolfin.


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## shadowfax_g

No worries, christopher. I don't think it is the wrong forum for your precious opinion. 



> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *
> Yes, I agree it is a curse, but Bilbo said he felt as though he had 'felt a burden being lifted from his shoulders' when he gave up the One and that 'he was ready to age' or something along the lines of. So, why didn't Gollum, if, your theory is right, why didn't the so-called 'curse' leave him also. And don't go and tell me because he had the Ring longer as you have no proof to tell me otherwise.*


My thought is like this: Gollum could eventually be released from the curse, it only takes much more time than Bilbo. Until then, whatever was his original life span, he was not allowed "mercy of death".


> *
> That's not sensibel logic, shadowfax_g. Gollum had the Ring longer than Bilbo, his life was prolonged much more than Bilbo's, and using simple logic we can quite easily deduct that Gollum would have perished much quicker than Bilbo.
> *


The difference of points may be that you put importance on the original life span and I do not. 
I didn't worry about the simple deduction of the prolonged life for I thought the power of the Ring may overcome it to keep the ex-bearer under its curse as long as it reaches (here's my only logic: The longer a bearer kept the Ring, the more time he might take to escape from its curse). You may not call it "logic".. again, it is just my opinion. 


> *
> Gollum was mortal to begin with, he murdered his cousin for an object that bestowed upon him immortality, it was taken from him after 500 years, therefore he should have died, end of story. *


Sorry, but I do not follow this. Gollum had not been immortal ever, had he? He just had his life stretched and when the Ring had gone it was taking time to shrink back.


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## Úlairi

> _Originally posted by shadowfax_g_
> *My thought is like this: Gollum could eventually be released from the curse, it only takes much more time than Bilbo. Until then, whatever was his original life span, he was not allowed "mercy of death".*



You are saying this is only your thought, and that is the way I will take it, no more, no less. I would like hardcore evidence to show that the Ring had a so-called 'curse', until then, your theory is mere hogwash. Let's say that your theory is hypothetically correct, for arguments sake. If I may quote from 'The Shadow of the Past' once more:



> "A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last *every minute is a weariness*."





> *weary* _adj._ (*wearier*, *weariest*) *1* disinclined for further exertion or endurance. *2* (foll. by _of_) dismayed at the continuing of; impatient of. *3* tiring or tedious. _v_. (*-ies*, *-ied*) *1* _tr. & intr._ make or grow weary. *2* _intr_. esp. _Sc_. long. [Old English] *wearily* _adv_. *weariness* _n_.
> _Illustrated Oxford Dictionary Published 1998 by Dorling Kindersley and Oxford University Press_



Personally I think the second definition given is the most proper. 



> ...dismayed at the continuing of;...



IMO, Gollum was dismayed at the continuation of life therefore actually wanting to die instead of dying with or without Gollum's consent. We cannot choose to die, and if Gollum had the Ring for so long then why didn't he? I am not going to buy into your 'curse' idea shadowfax_g, it isn't logical nor does it make any real sense.



> _Originally posted by shadowfax_g_
> *The difference of points may be that you put importance on the original life span and I do not.*



Why don't you? It makes *actual* sense shadowfax_g. 



> _Originally posted by shadowfax_g_
> *Sorry, but I do not follow this.*



That's OK shadowfax_g, you don't have to follow this, I'll just argue with someone else who makes at least some sense.


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## Grond

Ulari, the entire fallacy of your premise (IMO) is in using the author's description of what happens to a person who possesses the Ring to try and come up with a relative reaction when a person loses the Ring. There are only two instances of this occurring where there was a surviving Ringbearer... Gollum and Bilbo. (And of course Frodo for a short time that doesn't really bear here). 

Having such a small comparitive data base to analyze and not having the author address the issue in detail make it nearly impossible for us to come upon a definitive answer on this one. I feel that Gollum become very much linked to the One Ring. His very being became wrapped up in it, much like Sauron. While Sauron was looking for the Ring to recover lost power that he had transferred into the Ring, Gollum was looking to recover the Ring because of the Power that he had felt when in possession of it. He hungered for the borrowed power of Sauron.

You are also trying to compare apples and oranges. Gollum bore the Ring for hundreds of years and was parted from it, not of his own free will. Bilbo possessed the Ring for 70 or so years and gave it up freely (with some help). You also have a basically evil character who is fully corrupted by the Ring versus a hugely good person who never succombs to the same corruption. 

Finally, I think it was that very failure to free himself of the Ring's grip on his soul that allowed him to live so much longer. Once the Ring was lost to him, his very existence was intertwined with that of the Ring. He would not relinquish his life until he found the Ring or, as occurred, the Ring was destroyed.


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## Rangerdave

I think Grond has got you there bubba.

RD


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## Camille

> So, if every last minute was a 'weariness' for Gollum, then once he gave up the Ring why didn't he just coil up somewhere and die?


I think it has been said a lot in here, the lust for the ring was very great,enough for him to look for it, and you can not compare Bilbo to Gollum, because there was a great difference, the ring was alredy began to work in Bilbo, but for gollum the process was most terminal if you like, he was transformed by the ring not only spiritual but phisical Who knows what it had done to him. 


> Having such a small comparitive data base to analyze


Exactly! Are you familiar with statistics? you can compare two things (Bilbo and Gollum) and measure one factor (his life after the ring or ypour point Gollum not dying) but you have to keep the condition similar ( for example life style,TIME) and as you know the time Bilbo had the ring was less than Gollum's, this is the main factor why we can say time was responsable for Gollum difference (not dying inmediatly)


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## shadowfax_g

> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *
> That's OK shadowfax_g, you don't have to follow this, I'll just argue with someone else who makes at least some sense. *


You think that the effect of the Ring will disappear at once when the bearer lost it regardless the length of his possession, but I did not, that's all.

I cannot give any evidences for either of these two views so you may call it just raffling about. I personally believe many interesting thoughts come from such raffles. But perhaps it is not what you wanted as you seem to have the answer in you already and dismissing anything else.


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## Úlairi

Which is the answer as to why you didn't really post in the thread like I wanted you to eh Grond?



> _Originally posted by Grond_
> *I feel that Gollum become very much linked to the One Ring. His very being became wrapped up in it, much like Sauron. While Sauron was looking for the Ring to recover lost power that he had transferred into the Ring, Gollum was looking to recover the Ring because of the Power that he had felt when in possession of it. He hungered for the borrowed power of Sauron.*



Yes, he hungered for it, but such a forceful power must have bent Gollum's mind. However, you and I both know that a mortal cannot chose when he/she is to die. As you have said, the author didn't elaborate on it. I seem to have an impeccable ability to make threads which are completley unanswerable except through hypothesis and formulated theories, which I am beginning to despise.



> _Originally posted by Grond_
> *You are also trying to compare apples and oranges. Gollum bore the Ring for hundreds of years and was parted from it, not of his own free will. Bilbo possessed the Ring for 70 or so years and gave it up freely (with some help). You also have a basically evil character who is fully corrupted by the Ring versus a hugely good person who never succombs to the same corruption.*



Gollum was fully corrupted yes, but what you said about Bilbo is not entirely true. He was beginning to be corrupted by the One. 



> _Originally posted by Grond_
> *Finally, I think it was that very failure to free himself of the Ring's grip on his soul that allowed him to live so much longer.*



You see theories upon theories, you and I both know there is no proof to back that theory up, therefore, I'm not buying it, sorry.



> _Originally posted by Grond_
> *Once the Ring was lost to him, his very existence was intertwined with that of the Ring.*



No, I wouldn't say interwined, the Ring had no wish to return to Gollum, rather say that Gollum was so corrupted that he was driven by a 'blind lust' to regain the Ring, as it jad totally consumed him. 



> _Originally posted by Grond_
> *He would not relinquish his life until he found the Ring or, as occurred, the Ring was destroyed.*



Until he found the Ring? So, you're saying as soon as he found it? Finally, I get to prove the 'Great Grond' wrong (even though I've done it in the past), As soon as he regained the Ring, it powers would once again be bestowed upon him, making him immortal once more. As for it being destroyed, once again, theoretical, that's all it is, nothing more. I'm afraid this thread will never be answered.



> _Originally posted by Rangerdave_
> *I think Grond has got you there bubba.*



Bubba? I've never been called that before! No, Grond hasn't got me at all, as I have clearly shown above.



> _Originally posted by shadowfax_g_
> *But perhaps it is not what you wanted as you seem to have the answer in you already and dismissing anything else.*



No, I'm just not going to buy into your unproveable theory, as Tolkien never gave even the slightest inclination that the Ring had some sort of 'curse' on it save the power of immortality and other properties such as invisibility that we find out in Tolkien's works. That is why I won't by into that bull.


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## Merry

> _Originally posted by YayGollum _
> *Nah. I'll go with the scary Merry person. Chris, know how to work PM's? *



Why am I scary??


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## Úlairi

> _Originally posted by Merry _
> *
> 
> Why am I scary??    *



_******** Ulairi, tolerance and manners are simple virtues on this forum, kindly use them *********_


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## Rangerdave

> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *
> 
> Quote deleted by Beorn*




That was a bit harsh don't you think? 

Every member of this forum has the right to post whatever and where-ever he or she desires so long as it does not conflict with the established rules.

If you want to have a private arguement for invited members only, either state this in the opening of your thread. Or better still, use private messaging. 

I realize that those of us who do not meet your standard of knowlidge, and I include myself in this description, can be irritating, but please try to be civil.

Thank you
RD


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## Merry

I think you'll find I have contributed to this thread sensibly since it's beginning, for you to make such an arrogant and rude statement makes me wonder why you take part in there forums. If you want to help others extend their knowledge then fine, SOME of your posts are enjoyable to read, but you are not the best person on this forum and you are certainly losing credibility with us other members. Grond or RW are not this rude even when they are right!!

Anyway as you said, this is not the best place to have this discussion.

Thanks RD!


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## Úlairi

> _Originally posted by Rangerdave_
> *That was a bit harsh don't you think?*



Yes, it was harsh and I apologise. I just don't like it when my threads go off topic. Once again my sincerest apologies.



> _Originally posted by Rangerdave_
> *Every member of this forum has the right to post whatever and where-ever he or she desires so long as it does not conflict with the established rules.*



Yes, I couldn't agree more. There has been no conflict in the rules (save on my part) therefore what I have said was entirely uncalled for and once again I apologise.



> _Originally posted by Rangerdave_
> *If you want to have a private arguement for invited members only, either state this in the opening of your thread. Or better still, use private messaging.*



In the future I will, I promise, and I apologise once more. I did post this thread for all, except I was mostly expecting Grond and I to battle it out, which I was much looking forward to, but he never showed up. So, I battled it out with you guys and no offence, I just didn't find it as intellectually stimulating as I'd hoped, yet you have all made valid posts, and I apologise for my rudeness.



> _Originally posted by Rangerdave_
> *I realize that those of us who do not meet your standard of knowlidge, and I include myself in this description, can be irritating, but please try to be civil.*



OK, in the future I will be civil to you all (even the ones that frustrate me.  



> _Originally posted by Rangerdave_
> *Thank you*



No, thank *you*. 



> _Originally posted by Merry_
> *I think you'll find I have contributed to this thread sensibly since it's beginning,...*



Yes, you have, as I have said, all your posts have been valid.



> *Originally posted by Merry[/I]
> ...make such an arrogant and rude statement makes me wonder why you take part in there forums.*


* 

If you wish to know why I take part in these forums then PM me.




Originally posted by Merry
If you want to help others extend their knowledge then fine,...

Click to expand...


I do and I will try.




Originally posted by Merry
SOME of your posts are enjoyable to read,...

Click to expand...


Thankyou.




...but you are not the best person on this forum...

Click to expand...


I know, we are all equal in the eyes of God.




Originally posted by Merry
...you are certainly losing credibility with us other members.

Click to expand...


I certainly hope not. If I am, In will make amends.




Originally posted by Grond
Grond or RW are not this rude even when they are right!!

Click to expand...


RW isn't, but Grond would surprise you sometimes. He's only playful though whereas I am serious, big difference. Once again I am sorry and I will refrain to puissantly use my knowledge over others.




Originally posted by Merry
Anyway as you said, this is not the best place to have this discussion.

Click to expand...


No, it isn't. Once again, I am sorry.*


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## Úlairi

Gee, I must be losing a lot of credibility if no one will post in my threads anymore.


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