# Rift/breach in fate/doom?



## Confusticated (Nov 15, 2002)

Things doomed were known to Mandos. Mandos knew all things no longer in the freedom of Iluvatar.



> _This is said of Mandos in The Valaquenta, in The Silmarillion_
> *He forgets nothing; and he knows all things that shall be, save only those that lie still in the freedom of Ilúvatar.*



Yet Ulmo speaks of this breach in doom, If Ulmo may breach the walls of doom, does this (coupled with the above quote) then mean that Ulmo can alter dooms that even Iluvatar can not?




> _*Ulmo's words to Tuor in "Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin" from UT*_
> "But behold!" said he, "in the armour of Fate (as the Children of Earth name it) there is ever a rift, and in the walls of Doom a breach, until the full-making, which ye call the End. So it shall be while I endure, a secret voice that gainsayeth, and a light where darkness was decreed. Therefore, though in the days of this darkness I seem to oppose the will of my brethren, the Lords of the West, that is my part among them, to which I was appointed ere the making of the World. Yet Doom is strong, and the shadow of the Enemy lengthens; and I am diminished, until in Middle-earth I am become now no more than a secret whisper. The waters that run westward wither, and their springs are poisoned, and my power withdraws from the land; for Elves and Men grow blind and deaf to me because of the might of Melkor.



With the diminishment of Ulmo, and consideration of his words that there is a breach in the walls of doom until the full-making (men would say the end) would this be that the walls of doom must then be breached by men?

Could the final chord on the third theme have been uncertainty on the part of Iluvatar? Not uncertainty of the very end, but of the means to that end.

I think these things say a lot about the freewill of men.
_If_ Iluvatar knew the end but not the means, (nor was Iluvatar's freedom to control the means) that would explain how it is that men can have truely free will amid the doom, and how they are free to take any course they wish. And that it is their ability, just as it was Ulmo's, to breach those walls of doom.

What are you thoughts on these words of Ulmo's?
And of the other things which I have speculated?

PS: I have started UT, I like it very much so far.


----------



## Elfarmari (Nov 15, 2002)

> Ulmo's words to Tuor in "Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin" from UT
> "But behold!" said he, "in the armour of Fate (as the Children of Earth name it) there is ever a rift, and in the walls of Doom a breach, until the full-making, which ye call the End. So it shall be while I endure, a secret voice that gainsayeth, and a light where darkness was decreed. Therefore, though in the days of this darkness I seem to oppose the will of my brethren, the Lords of the West, *that is my part among them, to which I was appointed ere the making of the World. *Yet Doom is strong, and the shadow of the Enemy lengthens;



To me, this would imply that Ilúvatar intended Ulmo to play this part, in opposing the Valar and their doom. This could be one thing that still lies still in the freedom of Ilúvatar, and is unknown to Mandos.


----------



## gate7ole (Nov 15, 2002)

I had never noticed this detail in Ulmo's words. It makes me wonder what else I have missed...
That Ulmo was somewhat different from the other Valar, it is well known. But that he is beyond Mandos and can provide a different road for Men and Elves, this cannot be proved. We shouldn't forget, that he finally failed to change their doom and Gondolin fell (as Mandos had prophesied).
About the breach at the walls of Doom, I haven't read about it anywhere else. It may be a temporary idea. Either way, it is very interesting. Of course, this breach is meant to be the ability of Men to determine their fate. This cannot be done by Ulmo or any other Vala. They can advise, but it depends on Men's own actions. And assuming free will, this should add a variable in the Third theme. That Eru didn't "write" a predefined drama, but gave the general intructions and let the "actors" use their own instincts. Thus, I agree that Eru may have left the means undefined, so that his creations will have the ability to change it and reach the end.
An example: Turin Turambar, Conqueror of Fate, who will finally avenge for his family and kill Morgoth at the Last Battle. He demanded to change his fate and before the end he will succeed.


----------



## Confusticated (Nov 16, 2002)

*Re: Re: Rift/breach in fate/doom?*



> _Originally posted by Elfarmari _
> *To me, this would imply that Ilúvatar intended Ulmo to play this part, in opposing the Valar and their doom. This could be one thing that still lies still in the freedom of Ilúvatar, and is unknown to Mandos. *


I have no doubt that it is Iluvatar's will that Ulmo be ment to play this part. Ulmo nearly states that outright, But what is strange to me is that Ulmo speaks of breaching the walls of doom, and doom is by definition something which Mandos would know, in other words something no longer in the freedom of Iluvatar.
If it were unknown to Mandos and still within the freedom of Illuvatar it wouldn't be doom would it?
I could be mistaken, this is just how I figure.


> _By gate7ole_
> *About the breach at the walls of Doom, I haven't read about it anywhere else. It may be a temporary idea. Either way, it is very interesting. *


I agree.


> _By gate7ole_
> *But that he is beyond Mandos and can provide a different road for Men and Elves, this cannot be proved. We shouldn't forget, that he finally failed to change their doom and Gondolin fell (as Mandos had prophesied).*


I think it's pretty close to being proven that he provided a different road for Tuor. I'm not saying that Tuor would not have reached Gondolin otherwise, but it seems that he could not have. But Gondolin is just Tuor's destination. The road it's self could not have been the same if not for Ulmo. 
Maybe the coming of Earendil was against the doom.

Even if Ulmo's attempts to alter doom do fail, that does not seem to mean that all attempts will fail. If all attempts would fail then what is the use of the rift?
Could be that it is only for the children to use, and that Ulmo guides them to it. Though even if Ulmo is only a guide through this rift, he would still be working to change doom. Ulmo's words to me, sound as though he can work to change doom.


Thanks for responding you two!


----------



## gate7ole (Nov 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Nóm _
> I think it's pretty close to being proven that he provided a different road for Tuor. I'm not saying that Tuor would not have reached Gondolin otherwise, but it seems that he could not have. But Gondolin is just Tuor's destination. The road it's self could not have been the same if not for Ulmo.
> *Maybe the coming of Earendil was against the doom.*
> I had the impression that Earendil's voyage was prophesied. If I'm correct, then Mandos should know this and Earendil wouldn't act against the doom.
> ...


----------



## Confusticated (Nov 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by gate7ole _
> Right. I completely agree. It is the Men's responsibility to cause the rift. Ulmo is only guiding them. *But I don't think that his aid is necessary.[ They might breach the Walls of Doom and their fate with or without Ulmo's aid*, because it is _meant_ that they will have this ability, even without anybody's interference.


Right, because Ulmo says himself that he will be diminished. Eventually he will not be able to guide anyone in Middle-earth. Or if he did, it would be an amazing exeption as it even was with Tuor. Most men at that point could not pick up on Ulmo's messages. So yeah, men can do this without Ulmo it would seem. 
The strange thing is that we've always known that men had freewill, but not until 2 days ago did I learn about a rift! I like to think that this rift does exist, and was not an abandoned idea. To me the idea of a rift is helpful in understanding how men can have true free will in a place where things are doomed.
I've heard people ask the question at this forum, how can men truely have freee will when things are doomed, or the end is known?
Well a rift would answer that question.


----------



## gate7ole (Nov 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Nóm _
> Right, because Ulmo says himself that he will be diminished. Eventually he will not be able to guide anyone in Middle-earth.


Not only. I think it has philosophical evidence too. The rift of the Walls of Doom, is a tool to Men to change their fate. Even if Ulmo hadn't been so open-minded, this rift would continue to exist and Men would still have the opportunity to determine their future, without his counsels. Ulmo's aid is useful but not essential.
Of course I completely agree that the existence of the rift is a sign of free will. What puzzles me though, is that the quote doesn't discriminate between elves and men. Both have (as the quote states) the chance to breach the wall. Is this consistent with Silmarillion? I always thought that the Elves cannot be freed from their destiny, while men do.


> _ from Silmarillion_
> but they(men) should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which.is as fate to all things else


while about the elves nothing like this is stated. What do you think?


----------



## Confusticated (Nov 18, 2002)

As for that quote you posted. I have interpreted it's meaning as being that men on the whole would shape the life of men as a whole. That is, that the way they live would be changed as a result of the world they live in being changed by them.
Not meaning that each man can shape his own life, though he can, but so can elves. It is the above interpretation which might apply to men but not to elves. 
Now according to the tale of Adenel and it is thought by Finrod, that the nature of men was changed early in their extistance by Eru as a result of Melkor's curruption of them. This event may be what caused Iluvatar to give men the ability to change the world. To see what men would do with themselves and the world now that they had this (as I see it) kind of second chance.
But this is just line of thought, it could go off in many directions.
Or maybe I should read the letters before I go making these ideas up. 
Maybe the answers are there?


> *By gate7ole*
> What puzzles me though, is that the quote doesn't discriminate between elves and men. Both have (as the quote states) the chance to breach the wall.


The quote of Ulmo's words about the rift?
Well, it might be that elves do not have the ability to breach the walls, but that if men breach the wall elves will be effected by this.



> *Finrod said this to Andreth*
> 'This then, I propound, was the errand of Men, not the followers, but the heirs and fulfillers of all: to heal the Marring of Arda, already foreshadowed before their devising; and to do more, as agents of the magnificence of Eru: to enlarge the Music and surpass the Vision of the World!
> 'For that Arda Healed shall not be Arda Unmarred, but a third thing and a greater, and yet the same. I have conversed with the Valar who were present at the making of the Music ere the being of the World began. And now I wonder: Did they hear the end of the Music? Was there not something in or beyond the final chords of Eru which, being overwhelmed thereby, they did got perceive?


Though after that he says that maybe Eru made no music or showed no vision beyond a certain point.
But a moment later he says this


> 'Ah, wise lady!' said Finrod. 'I am an Elda, and again I was
> thinking of my own people. But nay, of all the Children of Eru. I was thinking that by the Second Children we might have been delivered from death. For ever as we spoke of death being a division of the united, I thought in my heart of a death that is not so: but the ending together of both. For that is what lies before us, so far as our reason could see: the completion of Arda and its end, and therefore also of us children of Arda; the end when all the long lives of the Elves shall be wholly in the past.
> 'And then suddenly I beheld as a vision Arda Remade; and there the Eldar completed but not ended could abide in the present for ever, and there walk, maybe, with the Children of Men, their deliverers, and sing to them such songs as, even in the Bliss beyond bliss, should make the green valleys ring and the everlasting mountain-tops to throb like harps.'


Just the idea that men will change the world and may even accomplish things for the elves.


----------



## Confusticated (Feb 5, 2003)

It was doomed that more people would reply to this thread.


----------



## Eriol (Feb 5, 2003)

> It was doomed that more people would reply to this thread.



 

Following the doom... I will place a quote of mine from a related thread:



> I don't think Tolkien pictured the Elves without (or with a lessened) free will as regards the shaping of their fate. They simply had more info and less of a 'rebellious' spirit, and this could be explained by their being 'natives' in Arda, part of the World, bound to it. They find 'happiness' (...) easily in Arda, at first, but they are 'fading' with the world, as they are not truly immortal (but only live as long as the world lives). One very important aspect of these speculations is that Arda, the World (really, the created Universe), is not all there is. Elves are bound to it, and age (weary) at the same rate. Men are not, so they weary quickly. But from the viewpoint of Man, the great question (...) regards their ultimate cause, why are they here? What is Eru's plan? This he has not revealed, and so Men are said to be 'freer', in as much as the plan for the Elves is explicit -- to live in Valinor until the end of the world, and share the delight of Arda with the Powers. (Even so they can refuse it and 'fade' in Middle Earth, the 'fairies' of later stories were in Tolkien's mind faded Elves). But as they are both Children of Ilúvatar, He has some plan for Men as well. It is only unknown to them (and therefore to us...)



This is my belief regarding the differences between Elves and Men pertaining to their Doom. As for the walls of Doom, my opinion is based only in the Sil and UT, so any quotes from HoME for or against it would be welcome. I think it means "what Manwë & Mandos know". A rift would be a 'grey area', something not in their knowledge but dependent on the free choices of the Children. But the end result, if it is known to them, MUST happen. The Fall of Gondolin as well as other results of Feänor's Oath are examples of that, as is the defeat of Morgoth. The Valar perhaps did not know precisely how Gondolin would fall, they might have no knowledge of Maeglin, but it would fall nonetheless. 

In a more recent example, Manwë probably knew Sauron would fall. He could not have specific knowledge of Frodo, or the many choices he made in the Quest, or the role of Gollum. But if any of these turning points had led astray, another road would appear so that Sauron would fall. Maybe it would take much longer, but it would happen (if it was in Manwë's knowledge). So free will acts in the 'gray zones' of Manwë's knowledge, and Eru's gentle intervention may insure that the Doom is fulfilled.


----------

