# Was arda flat?



## krash8765 (Apr 2, 2003)

I stumbled over this when reading a few tolkien books at Barnes and Noble and i noticed the word "flat." Was arda really flat? and when did it change into a sphere?


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## Niniel (Apr 2, 2003)

In some of Tolkien's earlier works the earth (I don't think he called it Arda then) was flat; I read this in the introduction to Roverandom:


> But in other ways it is clearly not our earth; for one thing, irt has edges over which waterfalls drop 'straight into space'. This is not quite the earth depicted in the legendarium either, although it too is flat; but the moon of Roverandom, exactly like the one in The Book of Lost tales, moves beneath the world when it is not in the sky above.


 I believe the later Arda was from the beginning supposed to be round (as described in the chapter Of the Sun and Moon in the Sil), but apparently Tolkien's first stories had a flat earth.


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## Melko Belcha (Apr 2, 2003)

Arda was flat until the Drowning of Numenor when Iluvatar made the world round and removed the True West. 
The Silmarillion - Akallabeth


> Then Manwe upon the Mountain called upon Iluvatar, and for that time the Valar laid down their government of Arda. But Iluvatar showed forth his power, and he changed the fashion of the world;.......But the land of Aman and Eressea of the Elder were taken away and removed beyond the reach of Men for ever.......For Iluvatar cast back the Great Seas west of Middle-earth, and the Empty Lands east of it, and new lands and seas were made; and the world was diminished, for Valinor and Eressea were taken from it into the realm of hidden things.........And those that sailed far came only to the new lands, and found them like to the old lands, and subject to death. And those that sailed furthest set but a girdle about the Earth and returned weary at the last to the place of their beginning; and the said: 'All roads are now bent.'


Niniel, where did you get the description that the earth was round from Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor? I just reread the chapter and it is not described anywhere that the earth is round. And with the referances to the Sun drawing close to Aman and passing through the Outer Sea, that was on the west coast of Aman, it sounds to me that the earth is flat. If the Sun travels from the east to the west, how can it travel below the earth if it was round? And if the earth was round then why did it draw close to Aman? Wouldn't it stay at the same height from the surface.


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## Aiwendil2 (Apr 2, 2003)

In the published Silmarillion, and in all Tolkien's writings up to tha late forties, the earth was initially flat; it was made round at the drowning of Numenor.

Sometime around 1948 Tolkien wrote a version of the Ainulindale in which the world was round from the beginning, and the sun and moon existed from the beginning as well. But at the time he seems to have rejected this idea.

In the 1950s the idea reappeared in a series of texts published in HoMe X as "Myths Transformed". He seems this time to have definitely adopted this version, but he never revised the extant Silmarillion writings to agree with it.


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## Melko Belcha (Apr 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Aiwendil2 _
> *In the published Silmarillion, and in all Tolkien's writings up to tha late forties, the earth was initially flat; it was made round at the drowning of Numenor.
> 
> Sometime around 1948 Tolkien wrote a version of the Ainulindale in which the world was round from the beginning, and the sun and moon existed from the beginning as well. But at the time he seems to have rejected this idea.
> ...


Yes, I was refering to the published version, and Christopher used the old idea of the world being flat and then becoming round in the published version. I have read the "Myths Transformed", but it was never develop enuff for Christopher to work with, so he went with the old idea.

If I sound rude, sorry, I don't mean to.


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## Niniel (Apr 2, 2003)

I took the passage from the Sil to mean that the earth was round; I mean it doesn't say exactly that it is flat and it can be understood to mean that it is round. After all, the moon and sun can also travel from east to west when the earth is round, and then disappear behind the other half of the round earth until they come back again. But you convinced me, that the earth was flat until the drowning of Númenor.


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## Gil-Galad (Apr 2, 2003)

well let's think in a hypothetical way.If the had been round before the drowning on Numenor,the Numenoreans would have reached Valinor from east when they sailed eastward.But that did not happen,so it is obvious Arda was flat till the drowning of Numenor.


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## BlackCaptain (Apr 2, 2003)

When Numenor was destroyed, it became round, like the earth. If you were a Man and left upon the western shores or ME, you would only come to the Eastern shores of ME after quite some time. The 'Straight way to the west' was how the Elves after the destruction of Numenor came to the undying lands. The boats were just guided in some weird spiritual way er somethin, and I use that sentance loosely.

This makes me wonder how the Vessles of the Sun and Moon made thier way about the world. Cuz before they just went under the earth and seas and came to the other side... If the earth was round then, would they just abandon thier course underneathe the world?


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## Tar-Elenion (Apr 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Gil-Galad _
> *well let's think in a hypothetical way.If the had been round before the drowning on Numenor,the Numenoreans would have reached Valinor from east when they sailed eastward.But that did not happen,so it is obvious Arda was flat till the drowning of Numenor. *


In the Drowning of Anadune texts (HoME 9) there is a mention of a debate about doing just that (sailing East to get to Aman). DA is a round world version.


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## Maerbenn (Apr 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Gil-Galad _
> *so it is obvious Arda was flat till the drowning of Numenor. *


 Really? 

What about this passage in _Aldarion and Erendis_?


> Thus it came to pass that on a morning of fair sun and white wind, in the bright spring of the seven hundred and twenty-fifth year of the Second Age, the son of the King's Heir of Númenor sailed from the land; and ere day was over he saw it sink shimmering into the sea, and last of all the peak of the Meneltarma as a dark finger against the sunset.


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## Beleg (Apr 3, 2003)

The last Quote only signifies that Numeneor was present in the west of Middle Earth. I can't glean anything else from it. The sentence about the sunset only signifies that Melentarma was towards the west of the Island.


> against the sunset.


 This can be taken as in Contrast of Sunset. It can be interpreted in the way that as Eldarion traveled towards east he saw Sun set in the west as the Heights of Meneltarma formed a shadow against the last rays of the sun.


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## Maerbenn (Apr 5, 2003)

I repeat:


> Thus it came to pass that on a morning of fair sun and white wind, in the bright spring of the seven hundred and twenty-fifth year of the Second Age, *the son of the King's Heir of Númenor sailed from the land; and ere day was over he saw it sink shimmering into the sea*, and last of all the peak of the Meneltarma as a dark finger against the sunset.


 Don't you think an island disappearing beneath the horizon means the world is round?


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## Eriol (Apr 8, 2003)

It can mean it is shaped like a half-sphere, or like a less concave surface, like a soup plate. It does not have to mean it is round (or does it?).

Alternatively (with tongue-in-cheek) it can mean that light did not travel in a straight line before the Drowning of Valinor. Fantasy is fantastic, isn't it?


EDIT: Where you see Valinor, read Númenor (duh)


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## Maerbenn (Apr 8, 2003)

But _Akallabêth_ isn't really from a Flat Earth context; the story had not been that since 1945, when Tolkien decided to change the conception of the Fall in _The Drowning of Anadûnê_ (published in HoMe IX: _Sauron Defeated_); he wrote it as Sauron's teachings of the Earth as flat. The change is carried forward thereafter; in the 50's he decided to create a Mannish mythology "inside" the mythology (see _Myths Transformed_ in HoMe X). 

Elendil probably wrote the _Akallabêth_ the way he did because he was influenced by Sauron's teachings. The changing of the World (Earth) was the removal of Valinor, not making it round. Since Valinor was in the West, by sailing East you should also be able to arrive there. The Númenóreans discovered that there was land to the East, but it wasn't Valinor; it was probably the Americas. Considering the Helcaraxë, it's reasonable to think that the South also had ice reaching to land, preventing the Númenóreans from sailing past it.

This is a quote from the _Akallabêth_:


> ...at times, when all the air was clear and the sun was in the east, they would look out and descry far off in the west a city white-shining on a distant shore, and a great harbour and a tower. For in those days the Númenóreans were far-sighted; yet even so it was only the keenest eyes among them that could see this vision, from the Meneltarma, maybe, or from some tall ship that lay off their western coast as far as it was lawful for them to go.


 This is pretty interesting. Why would one see more clearly from a place high up if the world was flat? It has been proposed that going up clears the line of sight from some blocking object (what could have been blocking the line of sight on the vast open sea?) and it has been argued that if our world were flat, you would still not be able to see Spain from Florida; it is simply too far. 

But I think it's more likely that the passage is an observation made by the Númenóreans but not properly understood (Aldarion and/or the author of _Aldarion and Erendis_ knew the world was round), in other words some kind of hint by Tolkien at the real shape of the world.


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## Snaga (Apr 8, 2003)

Tolkien originally concieved of ME as flat. He later decided that this made no sense since the world is actually NOT flat.

His reasoning was, that if the elves were acquainted with the Valar, who created the world they ought to have privileged insight into the actual state of the world. Thus their set of myths and legends would not contain a misconception such as that world is flat.

Given this train of thought, he attempted a revision of the Sil along this lines, which was ultimately not carried through.


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## BlackCaptain (Apr 8, 2003)

Interesting...


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## Melko Belcha (Apr 8, 2003)

Maerbenn you need to reread The Drowing of Anadune.

Sauron Defeated; The Drowbing of Anadune


> Seperated by years from the published Akallabeth, in DA II (most especially in the later part of it) a very great deal of the actual wording of the Akallebeth was already present..........For 'he bade men think that the world was not a circle closed, but that there lay many seas and lands for their winnings' (retained in the folling texts) the Akallabeth has; 'he bade men think that in the world, in the east and even in the west, there lay yet many seas and many lands for their winning'..........But it is certain that what appears to have been the final phase of my father's work on Numenor (A Description of Numenor, Alarion and Erendis) dates from the mid - 1960's and it may be that the Akallabeth derives from that period also.



Letter #154 - written in 1954


> Actually in the imagination of this story we are now living on a phsically round Earth. But the whole 'legendarium' contains a transition from a flat world to a globe.


The 4 versions of The Drowning of Anadune were written in the 40's, the Akallabeth was written afterwards, and was a combination of the flat world The Fall of Numenor and the round world The Drowning of Anadune. The Akallabeth was written to fit into the old (flat world) legends. I have read the Myths Transformed and he never reached the Numenor section so the Akallabeth cannot be counted amoung that material.


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## jallan (Apr 20, 2003)

But as revealed in _Myths Transformed_ Tolkien seems to have eventually decided that this _Silmarillion_ and _Akllabêth_ materials were to be considered as Mannish legends, parts of which were very garbled, particularly concerning the creation of the Moon and Sun from fruit and flower, and the changing of the a flat earth to a round earth.

Unable to adequately rewrite the tale to fit a more scientific cosmology, he instead kept the old features of primitive mythology, but now they were to be explained to be distortions of the truth in particular legends and traditions within his legendarium.

As to the written _Akallabêth_, J.R.R. Tolkien’s final version was presented as an oral recitation by Pengoloð to Ælfwine on Eressëa as revealed by Christopher Tolkien in _The Peoples of Middle-earth_.

Christopher Tolkien editorially removed all references indicating this in the published _Silmarillion_.


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## Ardamir the Blessed (Jul 25, 2004)

*Signs in the Akallabêth and 'Aldarion and Erendis' that the world was already round*

I finally found something in the _Akallabêth_ that could be a sign of it being written in a Round Earth context (apart from *Maerbenn's* observation here):


> And men saw his [Ar-Pharazôn's] *sails coming up* out of the sunset, dyed as with scarlet and gleaming with red gold, and fear fell upon the dwellers by the coasts, and they fled far away.


This reference is similar to those I have found in 'Aldarion and Erendis':


> Thus it came to pass that on a morning of fair sun and white wind, in the bright spring of the seven hundred and twenty-fifth year of the Second Age, the son of the King's Heir of Númenor sailed from the land; and ere day was over he [Aldarion] saw it *sink shimmering into the sea, and last of all the peak of the Meneltarma as a dark finger against the sunset*.





> At last the sea and wind relented, but even as Aldarion looked out in longing from the prow of the Palarran and *saw far off the Meneltarma*, his glance fell upon the green bough, and he saw that it was withered. Then Aldarion was dismayed, for such a thing had never befallen the bough of oiolairë, so long as it was washed with the spray. "It is frosted, Captain," said a mariner who stood beside him. "It has been too cold. *Glad am I to see the Pillar.*"


Also from 'Aldarion and Erendis':


> he [Meneldur] was enamoured of the stars and the heavens. All that he could gather of the lore of the Eldar and Edain concerning Eä and the deeps that lay about the Kingdom of Arda he studied, and his chief delight was in the watching of the stars. He built a tower in the Forostar (the northernmost region of the island) where the airs were clearest, from which by night he would survey the heavens and observe all the movements of the light of the firmament.


Would he not discover that Earth is round then?


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