# Lonely Mountain -A Pentagram ?



## grimalkin (Feb 29, 2016)

In A Brief History of The Hobbit by John Rateliff &on pg 258 the schematic map of the lonely mountain is reproduced. This map and mountain shape resembles the five pointed star or the pentagram. The author mentions that JRR Tolkien pondered on the significance of magic. In Sir Gawain and the Green Knight the Knight's pentangle represented friendship, courtesy, piety, generosity and chastity. My query is the following, could it be that the 'adventure' for Bilbo and the dwarves was nothing but an experience whereby these virtues were learnt (thus also for the good example of the young readers) which eventually would also overcome Smaug's fire as he flew in the air or while burried in the earth or as he fell dead in the lake town's water? Which would be the pentagram's material symbology...


----------



## Alcuin (Feb 29, 2016)

Properly speaking, the map of Erebor shows six “points”, two of them pointing west, where the secret door in the little alcove above led down to Smaug’s lair. (The two spurs appear to be pointing south, but remember, East was “up” in Dwarven maps, while North is “up” for our real-world maps. East is also “up” in real-world medieval maps.) 

More like a five-pointed star is Númenor. (It looks to me like a man with bag over his head running to the left.) Perhaps there is some vague similarity to the Lonely Mountain, especially since Meneltarma, the volcano at the center of the island and that was shaped like the island , had a little valley in the south, Noirinan, where the Kings of Númenor were buried. Since South is “down” on the map of Númenor, and West is “down” on Thrór’s map, both mountains have something interesting on the “down” side of them on the maps. (The Kings of Gondor were buried in Rath Dínen on the south side of Mindolluin. Come to think of it, though, I think Elves drew maps with the West as “up”; while Men drew maps with East as “up”. Or maybe Dúnedain drew maps like Elves. Tolkien actually made notes on it, but I think I remember they conflict.) 

If you’ve ever drawn lots and lots of imaginative maps – for D&D or another game, a story (as Tolkien did), or just for fun – you’ll probably find you use some shapes over and over. At some point, it becomes tiresome. Tolkien drafted his son Christopher (CJRT; his father was JRRT) into drawing his maps, and Christopher Tolkien’s maps were those originally published in the _Lord of the Rings_. I doubt there was any mystical symbolism in Tolkien’s maps: CJRT discusses them and their development at length in _History of Middle-earth_, where he published several developmental and intermediate versions leading to the final maps. 

There are also preliminary and intermediate versions of the Lonely Mountain that have been published. Douglas Anderson as editor published one in the color plates of _The Annotated Hobbit_. In that one, North is “up”, and the Lonely Mountain very clearly and definitely shows six “arms”, not five.


----------



## grimalkin (Mar 1, 2016)

Yes thanks, there are six spurs! I'll have a go at drawing maps, why not! However, I still believe that the virtues displayed by Bilbo & Co are those espoused to Gawain's pentangle, while the dragon living in the mountain, just like Asmodeus the demon invoked by Solomon' s 6 pointed ring, manifested its magic in earth, air, water and fire. And I should add, once Numenor was mentioned, that just like the Numenorian kings, ancient Solomon celebrated thrice yearly on a mointain, if my memory serves me well it was the faithful king who survived Numenors disaster who tried to uphold this thrice yearly mountain sacrifice.


----------



## Alcuin (Mar 1, 2016)

*grimalkin*, can you expand on the earth, air, fire, and water theme? There might be something to that. 

Solomon’s raising a demon using the Star of David is not a tale with which I’m familiar. It isn’t in the Bible, neither in the Tanakh (or Old Testament) nor in the New Testament. I’m not familiar with it from my acquaintance with the Talmud, though that is admittedly thin. I have read material that references such a tale, but it was, as best I remember, medieval material on alchemy and magic. 

Solomon _did_ participate in three festivals in Jerusalem. He did _not_ lead them, however: that job belonged to the high priests. (Solomon’s descendant King Uzziah burned incense on the alter despite the instruction of Torah and the attempted intervention of the priests, and for his presumption, was immediately struck with leprosy.) Only at the dedication of the First Temple was Solomon an integral part of the worship: he prayed publicly, and at the end of his prayer, a cloud filled the temple so that no one could enter it. This clear division of priestly and royal functions in Judaism may well be the foundation of our separation of Church and State. The site of the Temple is the Temple Mount, “Mount Moriah”, in Jerusalem. Occasionally archeologists will find bits and pieces of Solomon’s First Temple. (The Second Temple was built by Herod the Great; Jesus was alive during its construction: this building is the temple described in the New Testament.) 

The three festivals are Passover (Pesach; Easter in Christianity), Shavuot (the First Fruits; Pentecost in Christianity), and the third begins with Rosh Hashanah (called Yom Teruah in Torah, Feast of Trumpets, beginning of the liturgical year) and ends with Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement, the holiest day in Judaism (no analogue in the Christian calendar). Again, neither Solomon nor any other of the old kings presided over the ceremonies. (Remember the fate of Uzziah!) 

The Númenórean kings, however, were _priest-kings_. The three festivals were _Erukyermë_ (“Prayer to Eru”) at planting in the spring; _Erulaitalë_ (“Praise of Eru”) at midsummer; and _Eruhantalë_ (“Thanksgiving to Eru”) at harvest in the autumn. The kings led the people to the summit of Meneltarma. Three great eagles, called the Witnesses of Manwë, observed these proceedings. After many generations, the kings grew jealous of the longevity of the Eldar, which they mistook for immortality, and little by little rebelled against the Valar and Eru. Tar-Ancalimon, the fourteenth King of Númenor, neglected the festivals; his father, Tar-Atanamir, was the first to openly rebel against the Valar, flatly rejecting the counsel an embassy of Elves (and possibly of Maiar) from Valinor who tried to reason with him. 956 years after Tar-Ancalimon died, his descendant Tar-Palantír tried to revive the worship of Eru, but to no avail: his nephew Ar-Pharazôn usurped the throne and took Tar-Palantír’s daughter, Míriel, to wife, renaming her Zimraphel. Ar-Pharazôn brought Sauron to Númenor (Sauron never dared to climb Meneltarma and enter the Hallow), who taught the Númenóreans to worship Morgoth and practice human sacrifice. 

In Middle-earth, there was no practice like that in Númenor. There was a little hallow on Mindolluin above the city of Minas Tirith, but only the kings went there. It was here that Aragorn found a sapling of the White Tree that he replanted in the Court of the Fountain. In a footnote in _Letters of JRR Tolkien_ #153, Tolkien wrote,


> There are … no temples or “churches” … in this world among “good” peoples. They had little or no “religion” in the sense of worship. For help they may call on a Vala (such as Elbereth), as a Catholic might on a Saint… The Númenóreans … were pure monotheists. But there was no temple in Númenor (until Sauron introduced the cult of Morgoth). The top of the … Meneltarma … was dedicated to Eru, … and there at any time privately, and at certain times publicly, God was invoked, praised, and adored… But Númenor … was destroyed [along with] the Mountain…, and there was no substitute. Among the … remnants of the Faithful…, religion as divine worship … seems to have played a small part; though a glimpse of it is caught in Faramir’s remark on “grace at meat”.



I am very interested in your view on earth, air, fire, and water. That theme appears in the Three Elven Rings: Vilya (air, Elrond’s ring), Nenya (water, Galadriel’s ring), and Narya (fire, Gandalf’s ring), and the One Ring (earth). In _Morgoth’s Ring_, CJRT publishes his father’s essay, “Notes on Motives in the Silmarillion”. In part _(ii)_, Tolkien wrote


> Melkor incarnated himself (as Morgoth) permanently. He did this so as to control the _hröa_, the “flesh” or physical matter, of Arda. …[O]utside the Blessed Realm, all “matter” was likely to have a “Morgoth ingredient”, and those who had bodies, nourished by the _hröa_ of Arda, had … a tendency, small or great, towards Melkor: they were none of them wholly free from him in their incarnate form, and their bodies had an effect upon their spirits.
> 
> …Sauron’s relatively smaller power was _concentrated_; Morgoth’s vast power was _disseminated_. The whole of Middle-earth was “Morgoth’s Ring”… [T]he final eradication of Sauron … was achievable by the destruction of the [One] Ring. No such eradication of Morgoth was possible… Sauron’s power was not … in gold as such, but in a … particular portion of … gold [i.e., the One Ring]. Morgoth’s power was disseminated throughout Gold, if nowhere absolute (for he did not create Gold), it was nowhere absent. (It was this Morgoth-element in matter … which was a prerequisite for such “magic” … as Sauron practiced with it and upon it.)
> 
> …[C]ertain “elements” … had attracted Morgoth’s special attention… For example, all gold (in Middle-earth) seems to have had a specially “evil” trend – but not silver. Water is represented as being almost entirely free of Morgoth. (This … does not mean that any particular … water could not be poisoned or defiled – as all things could.)


Tolkien did not invent these concepts. They enter into medieval thought through the Greeks: Democritus rejected it, and from him and his school of thought we derive modern chemistry and atomic theory in physics; but it has still profound effect in the arts and literature, where its symbolism, as you refer, *grimalkin*, carries meaning. Where do you find this in _The Hobbit_, which precedes the _Lord of the Rings_ and Tolkien’s writings in _Morgoth’s Ring_ by a good twenty years?


----------



## grimalkin (Mar 1, 2016)

As I said John D Rateliff in 'A Brief History of The Hobbit' mentions that JRR Tolkien was pondering on the meaning of magic. I am not sure where this sentence is placed in the entire text of his book, I'll have to look it up and reproduce here the exact quote and the source John uses which could have been one of the letters, this for later.
As you have mentioned, the 'Ring of Aandaleeb' or Solomon's ring (having a six-pointed star of David or a five-pointed star attached to it - depends on the source) is fictional / legend / myth, the exact source might be associated with the legends of Solomon's mines and not Biblical (at least not in Christian bibles). Although Werner Keller in 'The Bible As History' shows that archaeological evidence for copper mines exist in Israel at the Southernmost tip and belong to possibly King David's or Solomon's times. What strikes me most about the legend of the Ring of Aandaleeb is its resemblance with Sauron's ring. Although in this case Sauron being a Maiar is the equivalent of the demon, and reverses the Aandaleeb ring's role which, as the story has it, controlled the actions of Asmodeus - the demon of destruction - depending on Solomon's particular whims. Well... My bible is the 1966 version of The Jerusalem Bible and JRR Tolkien had a go at revising certain books of that particular version in fact he is in 'the list of all those who have helped in the preparation of the bible'. John Rateliff also mentions Tolkien's involvement in the revision of the Book of Job. Anyhow, in that Bible I read that Solomon worshipped God on high places and thrice yearly just like Elendil in Middle Earth after the destruction of Numenor. You have given a better explanation of this, however I would like to add that King Elendil remained faithful to his Eru, while King Solomon apostatised due to his love of foreign wives, who might have introduced him to the worship of foreign gods as opposed to the Jewish Adonai, and one God. Well, freemasonry borrows from this and Solomon being a temple builder is admired in Freemasonry (speculative not operative), they worship many gods. Lets not digress. Solomon is a little bit 666, ie placing man above God, just like antichrist who in my opinion also resembles Sauron. Again I'm digressing.
For a hobby I am a writer and am Roman Catholic and also a hobby researcher and Tolkien enthusiast, all this got me into trouble with certain circles who I at times feel that they try to send me an Asmodeus or two. Never mind I take this all in my stride and while I myself am not a person who practises witchcraft am quite aware of it and feel 'tried' or 'bewitched' I'm also a cat lover (actually I love only one cat for now) and gave myself the name Grimalkin and Turin due to the trials of life. Recently 'The Story of Kullervo' edited by Verlyn Flieger has been published, very interesting Kullervo tries to inflict damage and have his vengeance on an evil magnate and himself becomes worse, its a good read and a lesson which we all need to learn.
In my humble opinion there is a lot about Earth, Air, Fire and Water (and all the in between such as gases and plasmas). Tolkien names this world Middle Earth, proper meaning I read in 'The Lord of The Rings' - A Reader's Companion - as being that place which is not the centre of the Universe, lest we remember the life of Galileo Galilei and the scientific errors of the RCC but that Middle Earth is that place which is exactly between Heaven and Hell. This corroborates with other Christian stories and sources. This would mean that the Universe is that place which exists right in between Heaven and Hell. Obviously once Heaven and Hell cannot be proved scientifically but in one's mind or soul science would have nothing of this. Interesting though that the many practising modern day witches and sects, just like Freemasonry and Satanists, rely heavily on the aid of the fallen angels which St Paul speaks of (principalities and powers) who inhabit the air. Likewise the rest might inhabit all matter and take various forms and create transformations, metamorphosis not transmutation, just to quirk the humans. Christian theology speak of 9 choirs of angels and demonologists also darkly gather the clues to have power over matter, these are real people and not elves and who unfortunately live among us and help at making our lives all the more interesting. I should add the following: that the Midgard-serpent coiled around the Earth is also based on Judeo-Christian tradition.
Personally, I am more interested in Gawain's virtues and the Pentangle and the entire story of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. All the rest is too dark and ugly and an insight into the dark reality and perilous times we are living in.


----------



## grimalkin (Mar 2, 2016)

I re-read your post, I like the part where you clearly point out that Solomon did not repeat Uziah's error and did not take on the role of being a priest-king. Nonetheless I'll find the exact quote for his worshipping thrice yearly on a mountain, just give me some time. He nevertheless disobeys God by taking for himself many foreign wives which fill his heart with other gods. Jesus Christ is a priest-king who unlike Uziah is not struck down by leprosy and does the opposite for he heals people of leprosy, especially that of the soul. The fallen angels are in union with matter and desired to be in union with God, but Adam and Eve came along who were to inherit creation and be themselves in union with God, well thats what christian theologians say, or aT LEAST A few of them. I study end times prophecies too, please allow me to digress a lot. In the Catholic prophecies of La SalettE, antichrist or 'the man of lawlessness' who previously establishes himself as a priest-king and god, is mentioned to attempt the impossible, ie crashing the gates of heaven... he uses the angels of the air and matter or technology... ok this is all speculation. You see I HAVE GONE TOTALLY OFF POINT AND WOULD LIKE TO REPEAT THAT SIR GAWAIN, PATIENCE AND THE BOOK OF JOB TOGETHER WITH FORGIVENESS ARE MORE IMPORTANT


----------



## Alcuin (Mar 2, 2016)

Let’s return to *earth, air, fire, and water*. Where do you see the Four Classical Elements in _The Hobbit_, and how do you interpret them there?


----------



## grimalkin (Mar 3, 2016)

I am collecting all the sources and quotes, please give me some time. Those principles JRR borrowed from other sources, probably not biblical, he spoke about the elves as those creatures who perfected matter thanks to their innate craftsmanship (proper quote to be povided soon) My initial feel or insight is that HE borrowed from Chinese culture, dragons , fire, water, earth, air. The great were worms of the EASTERN DESERTS BEYOND THE EAST. IM SRY CANNOT TYPE PROPERLY WITH SMART PHONE, ITS IN CAPS DUE TO SOFTWARE ISSUES. HE ASSOCIATES SMAUG WITH THE ELEMENTS. PLEASE READ MY NEXT POST.


----------



## grimalkin (Mar 3, 2016)

Some security fixated individuals would say that Tolkiens dragons and fire represent nuclear power. Nothing of this, what rubbish, these peoples minds are over science fictionalised and quite shallow I must add. Tolkien associates the elements with metaphysical magic, ie spirits and not the power of the so called atom. Such people shoul read other material and not Tolkien literature.


----------



## grimalkin (Mar 3, 2016)

Yes now I understood you. That is why previously I said metamorphosis and not transmutation, for the latter is a natural process while the former is metaphysical, lets Jesus after the resurrection passing through closed doors or in the evil domain a wiccan witch metamorphosing to indian ceremonial dancer and again in the evil spirit domain a man changing into wolf. Thats not the transmutation of elements and although the elves would have been interested Tolkiens lit deals with angels ie Maiar.


----------



## grimalkin (Mar 3, 2016)

Well I cannot imagine Tolkien using allegory in his fiction representing concepts of science. And in all due respect to our modern day hysteria on nuclear energyost of it is in my opinion not driven by a real fear of leaked nuclear secrets but mostly due to energy utilities desiring to keep their cash flowing in and monopolies. The only thing coming close to nuclear power in Tolkiens lit could be maybe Feanors lamp. But then again it is stated elsewhere that its sap or luminesc sap from the trees, ahile if that light were a healthy perpetual light ot wouldnt be nuclear fission but maybe fusion. It is ridiculous to bring down the philosophicsl, spiritual and literary work of JRR to mere scientific allegory.


----------



## grimalkin (Mar 3, 2016)

The Lost Road and other Writings on the conclusion of the Silmarillion "...but Earendel shall descend upon him as a white and searing flame and drive him from the airs... Thereafter shall Earth be broken and re-made, and the Silmarils shall be recovered out of Air and Earth and Sea; for Earendel shall descend and surrender that flame which he hath made in keeping ... rekindle the Two Trees and a great light shall come forth" these are spiritual concepts of end times, the end of Morgoth and the coming of Earendel, and maybe a form of new heavens and new earth where Earth Air Water and fire are restored from their present fall?


----------



## grimalkin (Mar 3, 2016)

In the Hobbit, if we start with fire, or Smaug's fire, then we understand that Smaug is the descendent of the first dragons created by Morgoth, Quenta Silmarillion Chapter 1 nr 10 "In ice and fire was his delight. But darkness he used most in all his evil works, and turned it to fear and a name of dread among Elves and Men"


----------



## grimalkin (Mar 3, 2016)

That is a quote applied to Morgoth however Smaug being the descendent of Morgots children, could be attributed same fire and fear qualities.


----------



## grimalkin (Mar 3, 2016)

On Water in A Brief History of The Hobbit, pg 300 Bilbo to Smaug "I am he that buries his friends alive, that drowns them and draws them alive from the water" Baptism?


----------



## grimalkin (Mar 3, 2016)

Again on Water, when Smaug was defeated and his bones lay at bottom of lake none dared retrieve treasure gems and gold from amongst his bones, fear was still present, fear of Smaug, or of tge cursed treasure?


----------



## grimalkin (Mar 3, 2016)

Now as regards to Gawains pentangle id say generosity is clear in Bilbos sacrifice and time, courtesy when receiving the dwarves and awefully polite, maybe that was a learning curve for the dwarves, chastity when they killed all those spiders, ill think of more...


----------



## grimalkin (Mar 3, 2016)

Should I add more quotes or maybe... wait for a reply... k? Alcuin u there ?


----------



## grimalkin (Mar 5, 2016)

For Gawain's Pentangle on Friendship; Tolkien on dragons, unpublished lecture; "Dragons can only be defeated by brave men - usually alone. Sometimes a faithful friend may help, but it is rare; friends have a way of deserting you when (you are faced) a dragon comes. Dragons are the final test of heroes ..." pg 317 and "Mr Baggins who has bargained all his reward for his friends..." pg 320 A Brief History of The Hobbit.


----------



## grimalkin (Mar 5, 2016)

Evidently Bilbo here and Bard both fulfill Tolkiens idea for 'the hero' and friendship being one of the virtues needed - but many fail and the bravery of the hero must be enough for the hero to defeat Smaug alone.


----------



## grimalkin (Mar 5, 2016)

Gandalf to the party before parting... "Not a step further this way, thank you! The rest is your affair though if you ever find the dragon (& escape him againa!) I hope you will remember your old friend... " Pg 142 A Brief History of The Hobbit. This quote shows how Gandalf despite being their friend urgently must attend other business and it shall be their bravery which will help them defeat Smaug. Then please remember our friendship ...


----------



## grimalkin (Mar 5, 2016)

The Hobbit is interestingly steeped in the same magic attributed to Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. For the Green Knight is also steeped in magic, he is green and lusty. Its a different magic and evil attributed to the Pentagram. The virtues belonging to the Pentangle belong to the heart in that the ones possessing these look with scorn over the magic displayed by the Pentagram.. While the farther one is from the Pentangle the more power imbued by the Pentagram over the elements: Air, Water, Fire, Earth. Though the elements are also used well, waters cleanse for example. This iS my idea.


----------



## grimalkin (Mar 5, 2016)

Against the seven vices of the pentagram, lust, wrath, pride, gluttony, etc, Tolkien advises Gawain's pentangle; friendship, courtesy, chastity, etc...


----------



## grimalkin (Mar 5, 2016)

Q.E.D. ... Not so actually, I discovered something new regarding Tom Bombadi who was the first and the eldest and whose power "...is in the earth itself. And yet we see that Sauron can torture and destroy the very hills." Galdor says this at The Council of Elrond on Iarwain who being the first would be the last to fall. I re-read your quote and explanation on Morgoth and his power in Middle Earth, he may have had power over Bombadil unlike Sauron though for Sauron Galdor said that he could torture the hills. Bombadil and wife have or draw power from the positive aspects of nature, such as the rejuvination and the freshness of Spring. However, on all the things I have said before together with pentagram and the elements I should quote the following also from, The Council of Elrond... "


----------



## grimalkin (May 17, 2016)

... x"It is perilous to study too deeply the arts of the Enemy, for good or for ill..." Gandalf on Saruman.


----------



## grimalkin (May 17, 2016)

Maybe as Tom Bombadil was the eldest he could have been placed in middle earth to counter Morgoths deathly influence and hurt on the earth. A sort of healer though not exactly keeping things in balance as for that there was Manwe and co. Earlyer i mentioned that Bombadil and wife draw power from nature, they might not draw any power after all, they could be guardians or healers, tom that is.


----------



## Matthew Bailey (Jun 25, 2016)

Alcuin said:


> Properly speaking, the map of Erebor shows six “points”, two of them pointing west, where the secret door in the little alcove above led down to Smaug’s lair. (The two spurs appear to be pointing south, but remember, East was “up” in Dwarven maps, while North is “up” for our real-world maps. East is also “up” in real-world medieval maps.)
> 
> More like a five-pointed star is Númenor. (It looks to me like a man with bag over his head running to the left.) Perhaps there is some vague similarity to the Lonely Mountain, especially since Meneltarma, the volcano at the center of the island and that was shaped like the island , had a little valley in the south, Noirinan, where the Kings of Númenor were buried. Since South is “down” on the map of Númenor, and West is “down” on Thrór’s map, both mountains have something interesting on the “down” side of them on the maps. (The Kings of Gondor were buried in Rath Dínen on the south side of Mindolluin. Come to think of it, though, I think Elves drew maps with the West as “up”; while Men drew maps with East as “up”. Or maybe Dúnedain drew maps like Elves. Tolkien actually made notes on it, but I think I remember they conflict.)
> 
> ...




Rath Dínen is on the Eastern slope of Mindolluin. And technically it isn't on Mindolluin proper, but on the saddle between Mindolluin and the hill upon which Minas Anor/Tirith was built.


And I would not be so quick as to dismiss any significance to Tolkien's maps. There are a great many Symbolic things within them.

But I don't think that the shape of Erebor is one of them, only it's location, and the orientation of the map.

MB


----------



## grimalkin (Sep 6, 2016)

I just found this quote, Unfinished Tales, A Description Of The Island Of Numenor ... pg 165... The land of Numenor resembled in outline a five-pointed star, or pentangle..." there he likens the island to a pentangle and not a pentagram, for me this proves all that i have said and its a good thing to find that numbers can have double meanings in this case he focused on good virtues, ie friendship etc...case closed in my opinion at least.


----------



## PaigeSinclaire88 (Dec 20, 2016)

I think it's very plausible, maybe not intentionally given the fact that Tolkien was in fact a very religious man. I find the idea intriguing though, and I like it. The idea of Earth, win, fire and water has always played some part in fiction. Mostly, because of the lore behind the elements and Tolkien was very much intrigued by the Arthurian lore and legends. And that did involve elements of both Paganism and Christianity. Morgan Le Fay, represented the fay (Fearie folk) or Pagans in the Arthurian myths. And Arthur represented the newly established religion of Christianity, in England, meant to unite the English peoples. 

Knowing this is important to your idea because it implies that Tolkien knew of the Pagan religion, which is not far fetched as he was fascinated by history and language. And the very image of the Elvish are an example of what the Fay or Fairy folk in the old lore of England and Wales and so on. 

And the whole notion of the hero's journey is apart of this idea. In the old myths and legends of England, like Beowulf and Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. Tales of which Tolkien was heavily influenced by.


----------

