# The Skill of the Skin-Changers



## Ancalagon (Apr 9, 2002)

We know Beorn was able to change form, from Man to Bear. However, where did this skill come from? Obviosuly Beren was the original skin-changer among the race of Men, though this was learnt from the Eldar and not actually part of his genetic make-up. Therefore, even if Beorn was a distant blood-relation, where did he learn this ability?


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## Gamil Zirak (Apr 9, 2002)

Was Beorn concidered a man? Or is he some sort of Maia? I'm not sure which one he is. I've only read the Hobbit, LoTR, and Silmarillion and they didn't discuss his origin in great detail. Didn't the Hobbit say that he had a line of children after the Battle of Five Armies? I don't have a copy with me at work so I can't verify that.


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## Beorn (Apr 9, 2002)

> Beorn is dead; see vol I pp 241. He appeared in _The Hobbit_. It was the the year TA 2940 (S-R 1340). We are now in the years 2018-19 (1418-19). *Though a skin-changer and no doubt a bit of a magician, Beorn was a man*


*

Well, this answers 1 and a half questions. He was a man. And, he likely wasn't a relative of Beren, but rather a magician. I can't speculate where he learned it from...

Anyway, perhaps someone with all of HoMe can check the indeces (sp?). I know there is something about him in BLT I or BLT II.

Now, that's straight from the horse's mouth!*


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## Rohansangel (Apr 9, 2002)

Beorn was a man, although maybe he has some weird magic in his blood or something. It's probably in Unfinished Tales, which of course I haven't read. Man I feel useless. j/j

~The Angel of Rohan


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## Tao (Apr 11, 2002)

If Beorn was a man, than it is possible that he could decieve people into thinking that he was something that he wasn't.

That, however, is highly unlikely. I assume Beorn was given a gift by Illúvatar, or maybe he was an experiment. But also, his magician roots might just have given him the power. 

Also, somewhere in LotR, I believe it mentioned that he had a son (Beorning I believe). Who did he have the son with? It would have to be someone the same race as him....this brings up more questions...


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## Beleg Strongbow (Apr 12, 2002)

I always thought and so do others that beorn came from the house of beor im not sure how to prove thius but i remember ulairi and others and i discussing this a little while ago mayb he can remember some more stuff about it?? Sorry i couldnt help more


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## Cian (Apr 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Beorn _ I know there is something about him in BLT I or BLT II.



Different Beorn than in The Hobbit though. In this early form of the Mythology, Beorn (in one conception) was Ottor Wæfre's uncle (Ottor's father was _Eoh_ 'horse'). Eoh and Beorn were the sons of Heden (the leather and fur clad), Heden tracing his ancestry to the god Wóden (Odin). 

Ottor was to be named _Eriol,_ but here the conception is related, of course, to the "English element".



> "In his earliest writings the mythology was anchored in the ancient legendary history of England; and more than that, it was peculiarly associated with certain places in England." C. Tolkien



Beorn (Old English 'warrior', but originally meaning 'bear'; cf. ON Björn) slew his brother Eoh. Ottor settled on an Island in the North Sea, and wed, and had two sons named 'after his father' _Hengest_ and _Horsa_ to 'avenge' Eoh.

Hengest and Horsa (both 'horse' names) avenged Eoh and became great chieftains while Ottor Wæfre (I can't make the needed acute accent in this name ) set out to seek "Tol Eressëa" in Old English _se uncú þa holm_.

Ottor or _Eriol_ here belonged to the period preceeding the Anglo-Saxon invasions of Britain. 

Of course this is all very early stuff, from an 'early' outline, and not the only conception -- but this is that Beorn, not the skin-changer of the later _The Hobbit_ -- himself likely based on legendary skin-changer heroes like Bothvar Biarki for example.


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## Úlairi (Apr 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Beleg Strongbow _
> *I always thought and so do others that beorn came from the house of beor im not sure how to prove thius but i remember ulairi and others and i discussing this a little while ago mayb he can remember some more stuff about it?? Sorry i couldnt help more *




Well, I'm here. Well researched Cian and I congratulate you for beating me to it. About Beorn in LotR, Beorn was believed to be of the house of Beor, of which Beren is a descendant so it *is* likely that Beorn and Beren were related. Each descendant of the house of Beor was believed to have to ability to change into a bear (how peculiar!). Beorn was a descendant of Beor and it was believed that the teaching of skin-changing was taught from father to son. Beorn was definitely a magician, and so were his ancestors. I am unsure of whether or not Beren was a magician, as it is not stated in the Sil, but it is still a definite possiblity. Glad to be of service Ancalagon the Black.


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## Beleg Strongbow (Apr 16, 2002)

Gandalf beleives he came from the mountains. I wouldn't atgue with him! . Maybe he was the only decendant of beor and beren?? Does anyone else know of any one else?


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## Úlairi (Apr 16, 2002)

No, except for Grimbeorn and the Beornings (Beorn's children).


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## Beleg Strongbow (Apr 16, 2002)

Yes i thought so.


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## Úlairi (Apr 16, 2002)

Does this wrap this thread up then?


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## Beleg Strongbow (Apr 16, 2002)

For me yes


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## Úlairi (Apr 16, 2002)

Anyone else?


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## Ancalagon (Apr 16, 2002)

You would like that wouldnt you Ulairi However, though I am at work now, I will throw a few posers into the debate a little later. Watch this space!


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## Ancalagon (Apr 16, 2002)

Ulairi, you might wish to elaborate on the 'magician' aspect of your response.....I'm intrigued. Surely the ability to skin-change is inherent if Beorn was clearly able to pass this ability through his own bloodline, yet Beren learnt the skill from the Eldar, who must also have this ability. Therefore it cannot be genetic, but a skill of magic, if Elves can teach a man to do this. On the other hand, if the Eldar can teach Beren to do this, then everyone; both of the First and Secondborn must have the natural ability to do this, meaning it IS actually a genetic ability in both Elves and Men, therefore not making it a magical act.


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## Úlairi (Apr 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ancalagon _
> *Ulairi, you might wish to elaborate on the 'magician' aspect of your response.....I'm intrigued. Surely the ability to skin-change is inherent if Beorn was clearly able to pass this ability through his own bloodline, yet Beren learnt the skill from the Eldar, who must also have this ability. Therefore it cannot be genetic, but a skill of magic, if Elves can teach a man to do this. On the other hand, if the Eldar can teach Beren to do this, then everyone; both of the First and Secondborn must have the natural ability to do this, meaning it IS actually a genetic ability in both Elves and Men, therefore not making it a magical act. *



Well, your suggestions on genetics are two definite possibilities, as you have clearly outlined. I have always believed that it has been genetic, but one must be taught to do such things. So I do not believe that either one of your theories are right on their own. Rather, it is both. It is both genetic and it must be taught. So, firstly I believe skin-changing must be in your blood, but you must be taught how to do it. Therefore, I believe that Beren had it in his blood as he was of the house of Beor, but seeing as no one taught him, the Elves did. Beren taught the skill to his children and so on until Beorn was born. And then he taught it to his children. As for the magician aspect of my previous post, it was only a name given to them by other people as they could perform feats of magic which was both genetic and was taught to Beorn by his father or an ancestor. Do you understand Ancalagon?


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## Ancalagon (Apr 17, 2002)

> Each descendant of the house of Beor was believed to have to ability to change into a bear



Not sure of this Ulairi, you may wish to offer some support to this claim.



> Beren taught the skill to his children and so on until Beorn was born. And then he taught it to his children.



Ok, let's look at the Beren - Beorn descendant enigma;

Beren - Luthien = Elured, Elurin and Elwing

Elured, Elurin were both killed in the assault of Doriath by the Sons of Feanor. Neither had children.

Elwing - Earendil = Elrond and Elros

Elrond - Celebrian = Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen

Elladan and Elrohir did not have children, at least until afer the arrival of Beorn. Arwen we know married Aragorn.

Elros - Unknown = Vardamir Noliman, Tindomiel, Manwendil and Atanalcar. This line of Numenorians is numerous and is the beginnings of the line of the Dunedain of the North, who may possibly be the link of the early descendents of Beorn. 
If Beorn was to be descended through the line of Beren, it could only have been through Elros. However, it is unclear where this could have developed or from whom this ability could have been passed. There is no record of any of the line of Elros ever possessing this ability or even using it. Therefore I would contest that the ability to skin-change was ever actually passed from the lineage of Beren. 

One particular reason for this is the fact that Beren never actually change himself into any beast. Though there are some similarities between Beorn and Beren, the main one is the relationship between the Birds and the Beasts of the forests. 



> Thereafter for four years more Beren wandered still upon Dorthonion, a solitary outlaw; but he became the friend of birds and beasts, and they aided him, and did not betray him, and from that time forth he ate no flesh nor slew any living thing that was not in the service of Morgoth.



_Gandalf said to Bilbo about Beorn;_


> He lives in an oak-wood and has a great wooden house; and as a man he keeps cattle and horses, which are nearly as marvellous as himself. They work for him and talk to him. He does not eat them; neither does he hunt or eat wild animals.



This is where the similarity ends in my opinion.

Beren is not recorded as ever having changed himself into any other shape or skin. This was achieved by the skills of both Felagund and Luthien.



> . By the arts of Felagund their own forms and faces were changed into the likeness of Orcs; and thus disguised they came far upon their northward road, and ventured into the western pass, between Ered Wethrin and the highlands of Taur-nu-Fuin.





> By the counsel of Huan and the arts of Lúthien he was arrayed now in the have of Draugluin, and she in the winged fell of Thuringwethil. Beren became in all things like a werewolf to look upon, save that in his eyes there shone a spirit grim indeed but clean; and horror was in his glance as he saw upon his flank a bat-like creature clinging with creased wings. Then howling under the moon he leaped down the hill, and the bat wheeled and flittered above him.



These are the only two instances where Beren was changed in form, neither of which has any relation to Bears and neither he managed himself. Therefore I do not believe that this ability was anything to do with Beren at all.
So, where does this leave Beorn? We still can’t answer how he managed to skin-change from Man to Bear.

_Gandalf again to Bilbo;_


> He is a skin-changer. He changes his skin: sometimes he is a huge black bear; sometimes he is a great strong black-haired man with huge arms and a great beard. I cannot tell you much more, though that ought to be enough. Some say that he is a bear descended from the great and ancient bears of the mountains that lived there before the giants came. Others say that he is a man descended from the first men who lived before Smaug or the other dragons came into this part of the world, and before the goblins came into the hills out of the North. I cannot say, though I fancy the last is the true tale.



We cannot doubt either that he is a man, although Gandalf stated;


> I once saw him sitting all along on the top of the Carrock at night watching the moon sinking towards the Misty Mountains, and I heard him growl in the tongue of bears: "The day will come when they will perish and I shall go back!" That is why I believe he once came from the mountains himself.'



In addition, Tolkien makes it clear in his letters that Beorn's lifespan was no greater than that of an ordinary Man. It's very unlikely, then, that he survived much beyond TA 3000. (See The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien No 144, dated 1954). In the same letter, Tolkien explains that despite his remarkable abilities, Beorn definitely belonged to the race of Men: 'Though a skin-changer and no doubt a bit of a magician, Beorn was a Man'. 

This also dispels the Maia myth that is frequently suggested.

So at least there is some confirmation of your magician theory, which is why I was keen for you (Ulairi) to elaborate on the idea. Yet it is also clear that Beorn must have been the first of his line or people to have this ability, hence the people being known as Beornings.



> Beorn indeed became a great chief afterwards in those regions and ruled a wide land between the mountains and the wood; and it is said that for many generations the men of his line had the power of taking bear's shape, and some were grim men and bad, but most were in heart like Beorn, if less in size and strength. In their day the last goblins were hunted from the Misty Mountains and a new peace came over the edge of the Wild.



My theory is complete speculation; Beorn has no known descendants, though he is from the race of Men. Is it impossible to imagine that Beorn may have been both of Men, yet raised by Bears? He has an intense dislike of Goblins, who may have been responsible for attacking his family home in the mountains of the North. This is not dissimilar to Kiplings, 'Jungle-Book', where Wolves rear the young Mowgli. A book Tolkien would have read as he penned his early thoughts. Beorn could only have learnt his skill from the Bears he was akin too, over years having been in their company, been fed on milk and honey and assuming the ability to control his own form. Possibly Radagast may have had a hand in his upbringing, although this idea is not developed, only that Gandalf says; 


> 'I have heard of you, if you have not heard of me; but perhaps you have heard of my good cousin Radagast who lives near the Southern borders of Mirkwood?''Yes; not a bad fellow as wizards go, I believe. I used to see him now and again,' said Beorn.



I do not believe in the link with Beren, or Beren's genetic ability to skin-change. He was never responsible for his form changing and only managed this by the skills of others and their enchantments upon him. Beorn is skilled in skin-changing; he has a natural ability to do this at will. Only through magic of his own or that of the animals he is akin too can he do this. 

That's my line and I'm more than happy for anyone to contest it.


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## Úlairi (Apr 18, 2002)

I do not believe that anyone could contest that, save a few of us like myself. However Ancalagon, I can see no holes in your argument that jump out at me. Therefore if Beorn was a descendant of Beren, it would of have to have gone through the Line of Elros, as you have clearly stated. If what I have said in my previous post is true (which in some ways I still believe) than we can presume that Beorn was a Numenorean. Your theory is specultion Ancalagon, but with proof. I like the theory on the Rudyard Kipling's Mowgli, however, I find it highly impossible as I do not believe that Tolkien would in some ways 'copy' Rudyard Kipling. Therefore, I will present my theory, which is entirely speculation. For argument's sake, let's presume that Beorn *was* a descendant of Beren, and he was of the Line of Elros. Therefore, the only way Beorn could have been born is is his ancestors were of the same blood line as Elros, and were members of the Faithful (the people who stuck to the old Numenorean traditions), and escaped Numenor. Perhaps Beorn's ancestors left Arnor or Gondor and settled secretly in Mirkwood, where they befriended bears and animals, and somehow, in this mysterious bonding, the power of shape-shifting is rekindled within them. And the art of skin-changing is passed down from generation to generation. Beorn's stature is suggestive that there was a slight possibility that he was Numenorean as he was:



> "...a great man with huge arms..."



So, what I am saying is that the descendants of Elros could actually skin-change, but the art was forgotten but rekindled some thousands of years later. It's just a theory Ancalagon, but IMO it is extremely good and it cannot be disproven. Do you agree Ancalagon?


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## Elias (Apr 18, 2002)

*skinman*

I have never thought that where does all that skin comefrom, but I'm sure that Beorn was a man. In fact the books tells that in many places. Correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Ancalagon (Apr 18, 2002)

I like your theory, though there are some flaws;



> And the art of skin-changing is passed down from generation to generation.



Sorry, I cannot conceed that this art was passed via generations, because the race of Men were simply unable to skin-change until Beorn himself. There is no evidence to support this theory at all. This is a talent that only Maia and Elves had the ability to perform. Nowhere in the Histories of Arda have we heard of any Man able to skin-change. Only Beorn, and his direct descendants have managed to successfully change form. 



> I find it highly impossible as I do not believe that Tolkien would in some ways 'copy' Rudyard Kipling



Why is it so inconcievable that the seed of an idea may be put into the authors mind? Surely Tolkien has drawn from so many sources both literary and mythological to come up with his final masterpiece. Everyone finds inspiration from both likely and unlikely sources, you and I could never prove or disprove this.

The concept that Beorn was of the line of Elros and of the lineage of Beren is certainly possible, however, as I have shown earlier; 



> Tolkien makes it clear in his letters that Beorn's lifespan was no greater than that of an ordinary Man.



From the Silmarillion;


> But to Elros, who chose to be a King of Men, still a great span of years was allotted, many times that of the Men of Middle-earth; and all his line, the kings and lords of the royal house, had long life even according to the measure of the Númenóreans.



So the lifespan of the direct line of Elros was greater than that of ordinary man. So either, he is a direct descendant, blessed with both an ability to skin-change (how?) and longevity of years (No), or he is a distant, diluted descendant, with the normal lifespan of a man and a gene that has strangely missed generation upon generation, that originated in Beren, who never even had the ability to skin-change himself anyway? I find both of these scenarios extremely flawed, so I will stick to my own theory, unless of course you can convince me otherwise.


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## Gamil Zirak (Apr 18, 2002)

I think Beorn learned skin-changing from Radagast the Brown. They both lived in or near Mirkwood forest. Radagast probably had a sweet spot in his heart for Beorn due to their shared love of animals. Gandalf also states that Radagast is a shape changer (or something to that affect) in FoTR. It's possible for men to have magical powers. The Witch King was concidered a great sorceror before he succomed to one of the nine rings. It's conceivable that Beorn came from the mountians and was tought how to change his skin (or shape) by Radagast.


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## Ancalagon (Apr 18, 2002)

> I think Beorn learned skin-changing from Radagast the Brown.



Certainly a possibility, though Tolkien doesn't really elaborate on the concept too much. This leads me to believe, that Radaghast, could potentially have known Beorn early in his youth, and only periodically thereafter. Similar to the way Gandalf may have visited the Hobbits, though the way Beorn talks about Radaghast, it isn't with a sense of belonging or real affection that one might give a teacher or friend.

Yet, I believe the hand of Radaghast was at work somewhere, it is just impossible to say where, otherwise why would Gandalf be at pains to mention him at all?


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## Úlairi (Apr 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ancalagon _
> *I like your theory, though there are some flaws;
> 
> 
> ...



As I said Ancalagon, it was only a theory and yes, I knew of the flaws, but there was no way I could think of anything to fix them. shiloh53, I believe that that idea is definitely a distict possibility.


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## Ancalagon (Apr 19, 2002)

_To quote the good Ulairi_ 



> Does this wrap this thread up then?



And I thought I would never see you concede defeat???


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## Úlairi (Apr 19, 2002)

Well, Ancalagon, you provided the proof of which I knew existed. I do not concede defeat, I merely agree with what you have said. I forgot the crucial factor of Radagast, if I had considered it I wouldn't have argued with you Ancalagon. BtW, I have sided with you in the 'Feanor's Fate' thread. Maehdros fails to see that Feanor was great, but it wasn't 'greatness' that drove him on, it was his pride.


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## Ancalagon (Apr 20, 2002)

> Well, Ancalagon, you provided the proof of which I knew existed. I do not concede defeat, I merely agree with what you have said.



Ulairi, Ulairi, Ulairi, Ulairi my friend and confidente. You have simply agreed with me because I have offered up the best explanation, backed by the facts. Concede or not, you didn't actually put up an arguement, which disappoints me, because I was told that you were someone to be reckoned with. Sadly I must have been mistaken.


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## Úlairi (Apr 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ancalagon _
> *
> 
> Ulairi, Ulairi, Ulairi, Ulairi my friend and confidente. You have simply agreed with me because I have offered up the best explanation, backed by the facts. Concede or not, you didn't actually put up an arguement, which disappoints me, because I was told that you were someone to be reckoned with. Sadly I must have been mistaken. *



Oh, I am someone to be reckoned with alright. I have been voted a couple of times as the one of the most knowledgeable members in the 'Great Members' thread that Taran has started up. No, you weren't mistaken about me, but why should I argue against something that I agree with? That would be ridiculous! I will gladly argue with you when the time arises, and I am sure that it will happen soon. Ancalagon, I will fight you, I promise, so do not be disheartened as you were not mistaken about me. As a moderator Ancalagon, I will put this one to you. Could the WB make a forum for us i.e. the intellectuals to battle it out. It would cause a controversy I suppose, so it's best that you disregard my idea. I promise that we will meet again. BtW, who told you that I was 'a force to be reckoned with'? I am curious. Was it Grond?


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## Beleg Strongbow (Apr 21, 2002)

Where is this thread Ulairi?


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## Úlairi (Apr 21, 2002)

It is in the 'Member Announcements Forum', go check it out Beleg. Ancalagon, I am still awaiting an answer.


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## Beleg Strongbow (Apr 21, 2002)

Thanks Ulairi.


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## Úlairi (Apr 21, 2002)

No problem Beleg!


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## Grond (Apr 21, 2002)

It certainly wasn't me Ulari. I simply told Anc that you would probably be good to eat or that if he wasn't hungry, I would turn you into smushed wraith.


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## Úlairi (Apr 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Grond _
> *It certainly wasn't me Ulari. I simply told Anc that you would probably be good to eat or that if he wasn't hungry, I would turn you into smushed wraith.  *



Well then, I guess Grond doesn't think too highly of me!


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## Grond (Apr 22, 2002)

No Ulari, I think you are an admirable adversary and very knowledgeable, as well. But... you can be a tad bit over confident at times. You would be better served to let your knowledge do the talking.


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## Úlairi (Apr 22, 2002)

Yes, I agree with you, I am over-confident at times and I apologise for it.


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## Celebthôl (Oct 31, 2002)

*Beorn*

ok he was called a man and lived as a man (he died at like 70-80 oe sumthing) yet he could change into a bear y and how? and who did he marry to give him his childeren? and how did he desend from bears?

Celeb


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## Maeglin (Nov 1, 2002)

I wish I could help you, but I'm not really sure right now, I think there is a quote in the Hobbit somewhere,I'll look it up and post it later for ya.


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## Eriol (Nov 1, 2002)

Sorry, but I think this won't help you much  I've read more Tolkien than most people, though not as much as some esteemed loremasters in this forum, and I never saw any explanation on the status and "genetic upbringing" of the Beornings -- not in the Letters, nor in the most well-known works (The Hobbit, LotR, Sil, UT). Maybe in the History of Middle-Earth...

All I know is that they are related to the Rohirrim and to the men of Dale, being, as them, "Men of the Twilight": related to the Dúnedain, but who didn't cross the Blue Mountains in the First Age nor go to Númenor. As for their shapechanging ability, I think it is just one more fantastic element in M-E. Remember, when Tolkien wrote The Hobbit, it was supposed to be a children's tale, without need of any lengthy explanations. In our world's legends, shapechangers were accursed men or fabulous beasts (meaning, Beorn is actually a bear that can assume the shape of a man), but this is obviously not so with Tolkien's myth. I, for one, can't very well incorporate the shapechangers with the basic myth as explained in The Silmarillion.

Hope this was useful, see ya!


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## Maeglin (Nov 1, 2002)

If I may say so, Mr. Eriol "I've read more Tolkien than most people" was wrong about saying that there is not quote, for I have found it, here it is for you celeb.



> Some say that he is a bear descended from the great and ancient bears of the mountains that lived there before the giants came. Others say that he is a man descended from the first men who lived before Smaug or the other dragons came into this part of the world, and before the goblins came into the hills out of the north. I cannot say, though I fancy the last is the true tale.



I hope that helps a little celeb.


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## Eriol (Nov 1, 2002)

Hurray Glorfindel, well done for finding a chink in my memory 

That, I think, is Gandalf's explanation for Bilbo's benefit. I thought Celebthôl wanted "the real thing", Tolkien's last word about Beorn. Of course the opinion of the characters, even extremely wise (Gandalf), is not unimpeachable... and the quote is really vague  What he is really saying is "I don't know". It would not be good for the book to bring Beorn in without SOME kind of theory about him...

The "I've read more Tolkien" line was just to identify myself, since I have not posted a lot and am a newcomer to the Forum. I was trying to reassure Celebthôl that I am not a kid that just saw the movie, and is finishing the reading of "The Return of the King"... I was not trying to impose my opinion, and as I said, many members of the Forum have read more Tolkien than me. But we are not here to measure "Tolkien points", just to share and learn, right? Oh, and to have fun!

See ya!


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## Celebthôl (Nov 1, 2002)

Thanx i a had forgotten this yes it did help

Celeb


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## Ancalagon (Nov 2, 2002)

Well, I would think that if you were reading this now you would realise the error of your ways

Always liked this thread, just thought more people might add to it!


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## Ariana Undomiel (Nov 3, 2002)

If I remember correctly, Beorn was a man with the ability to change into a great bear. But he was not alone in this ability. He had sons who kept his lands for him and , if I am not much mistaken, they came to the fields of Cormallon to fight in the final battle against Mordor. I cannot find where it mentions it in the book, but does anyone else remember reading this?

~Ariana


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## Eriol (Nov 5, 2002)

Well, this is a nice thread, and in the debate that took place months ago I think Ancalagon's 'Mowgli' theory is the best I've ever seen to explain what was to me one of the mysteries of ME. But regarding Beorn's possible blood relation to Beren... Eluréd and Elurín were lost in the woods of Doriath, and not killed (directly) by the sons of Feänor. It says in the Silmarillion, if I am not mistaken, that "these tales do not tell what happened to them". Well, we usually presume that they died in the woods, being very young, but still... if it could happen with Mowgli and Beorn, why not one of the twins?

That said, I still think it extremely unlikely, and Ancalagon's theory is still the best.

Ariana -- don't you mean the Battle of Five Armies? After all, there were enough battles in the North, they wouldn't have to go to the Black Gate to pick a fight. Sorry, I don't remember reading about it


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## Ancalagon (Jun 2, 2003)

I still contend that Eluréd and Elurín founded Rome...which is one of my more outlandish theories


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## Tumunzahar (Feb 6, 2004)

What about this :

A Maia of the people of Yavanna remained in ME for his love of the wide forests and their inhabitants. He especially loved bears and delighted in assuming thier shape. One day he fell in love with woman, a descendant of one of the houses of the Edain, and they had a son : Beorn. 

Beorn being primarily a Man inherited some powers of his Maian father.

Just a thought, don't shoot me


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## Eledhwen (May 2, 2005)

OK, except that Tolkien said in a letter that Beorn was just a man. If Beorn had any Maia parentage it would have been mentioned in that explanation, and we would have had some backstory like the marriage of Thingold and Melian. We haven't enough written evidence to say for certain where Beorn's gift came from, but I think the first part of this thread covers pretty much all the possibilities.


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## YayGollum (May 2, 2005)

Why do you assume that if Beorn had any Ainur types of parents, that it would have been mentioned anywhere? Obviously, this Tolkien person did not spend a lot of time worrying about every piddly little thing about his Beorn character.  Even though the guy is a superly cool character. Hm. I wonder why I never noticed this thread before. oh well. You people with your other theories that the Tolkien person never mentioned and that lots agree with each other about. Why not concede that the Beorn character could have also had an Ainur type of parent? Some random spirit of a bear shows up, has a kid, yes, the kid is called a human, but then, there were other half breed types of things that chose to just be one race, some of them human. Beorn must have done that and retained some crazy and achingly evil and unfair shapeshifting powers. The other half breed types of things retain achingly evil and unfair attributes of the other race even when they choose to be human, so why not Beorn, too? Also, where can I hear about this crazy other theory on the founding of Rome?


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## Eledhwen (May 3, 2005)

I think that when two races were joined by a marriage, Tolkien made a big thing of it, with family trees in the Appendices and so on. But maybe you're right - he just didn't have the time to develop the Beornings, which he couldn't shoehorn back into the story after 'The Hobbit', giving them only a brief compliment in the Council of Elrond.


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## Alatar (May 3, 2005)

The men of the vales of anduin (twlight men) had a village in the mountains this village wqas removed from all others and the men there befreinded the great bears, the great and ancient bears of the mountains that lived there before the giants came, then the goblins atacked Bereon is the only survivior he is very young. The bears look after him he becomes big and strong and he lerns to take there shape (Radgast helped) till the goblins atack Beorn is the only one leeft again so the leaves the mountains.
Good theory?


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## Eledhwen (May 4, 2005)

There is a thread called "Other Hands" in the Glittering Caves, where the stories Tolkien never wrote are filled in. I suggest you tell the story in full there; it sounds interesting.


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## YayGollum (May 4, 2005)

just because this Tolkien person seemed to be making a large deal over a few times that different races had children with each other doesn't mean that he had to do so every time. How many does this Tolkien person even mention? Not very many, from what I have read. Also, the Beorn dude and any crazy relatives that he had were always kind of mysterious. The Tolkien person didn't write about them much. Obviously, he did not check and recheck every nuance of every character in every story of his. It seems to me to be achingly likely that other strange joinings could have taken place in regions of Middle Earth that didn't matter too much to the rest of the stories at the time. 

Anyways, Alatar person, I would call that a good theory, except for a few things that I happen to think make the theory more interesting.  The great bears that you write about are actually Ainur types who take the shape of bears. Also, why have Radagast be there to help? If Beorn is half human and half crazy bear Ainur thing, shapeshifting would be a lot more natural for the guy. Sure, the Radagast guy could hear a bit about a crazy werebear thing and check up and the dude. Why not?


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## Arbor (May 5, 2005)

Interesting stories. Could somebody please tell me, who in the English folklor has the same functions as Beorn? In slavanik folklor there is such character: he also knows how to speak with animals, lives in forest and can turn into animal, usualy wolf.


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