# Most overlooked character?



## Curufinwe (Jun 6, 2003)

Who do you believe the most overlooked character in the Silmarillion is as an integral part of the tolkien history? I believe it is Tuor for he was the father of Earendil and of course his sons were Elros and Elrond who were two pivotol people in the the 2nd and third ages althoguh Elros didnt live that long till the 3rd age.


----------



## Beleg (Jun 7, 2003)

Beleg Cuthalion.


----------



## Lantarion (Jun 7, 2003)

Ah, I don't know about that, Beleg. He was quite a central character all in all, and did many couageous and great things..
I'd say all the Maiar who went with Melkor! They aren't even mentioned! The Balrogs and other creatures of Melkor's devising were an integral part of his armies, and they are hardly mentioned. Pff. 

But as in actual, named character, I'd probably say many of the sons of Fëanor. They do accomplish many things, and do awful things; but it just seems like Tolkien didn't give them enough "screen-time".


----------



## Beleg (Jun 7, 2003)

> Ah, I don't know about that, Beleg. He was quite a central character all in all, and did many couageous and great things..



The magnitude of his achievements is always underestimated. It takes some fibre to become the greatest huntsmen that ever was in ME. Something for the Oh-Mighty-Legolas people to ponder up. He is ALWAYS named in context with Turin's name, even though his own achievements are equal, if not greater then those of Turin's. (In a wider context that is, not just viewing Turin as the slayer of Glaurung.) P.S: By the way, Lanty when are you starting BOLT2? You should read the tale of Turambar and Folake first... 
As for the Sons of Feanor, well the Shibbeloth discusses them individually, the later Annals of Aman give details about them, Tolkien short short essays in which he discussed some of the sons of Feanor, all in all, I think think they are given quite enough screen time. 

As for the Vala, well 9997 soldiers of Turgon and God knows how many of other's haven't been discussed as well...Nor do we know much about poor Anc...


----------



## Lantarion (Jun 7, 2003)

Ack! Bulldozed by Beleg! 
Anyway Curufinwë (welcome to the forum ) asked abuot characters in the Silmarillion, not in any of the HoME.
[And no, I've been reading BoLT1; but I'll be sure to read the tale of Túrin and Folake as soon as possible ]


----------



## Gil-Galad (Jun 7, 2003)

Fingon.All Noldor High Kings are in the central place of the story,and among them Fingon is really overlooked.


----------



## Bilbo Baggins57 (Jun 8, 2003)

Gwindor. He fought bravely in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, all the way up to the doors of Angband but unfortunately was captured. As to playing an integral part of Tolkien history, he brought Turin to Nargothrond. Despite two messangers' warning to "Shut the doors of the fortress and go not abroad. Cast the stones of your pride into the loud river, that the creeping evil may not find the gate,"
Turin was too proud to listen and did as he pleased, thus playing an integral part in the fall of Nargothrond. If Gwindor had never brought Turin there Nargothrond may have well had a chance at survival.
And also Celebrimbor. Even though Tolkien places a lot of importance on him, he hardly gets any screen time. The only things we know about him are that he is the son of Curufin and the creator of the rings.


----------



## YayGollum (Jun 8, 2003)

Well, if people are saying that characters are overlooked just because other characters have bigger fan clubs, I'd like to toss in the names of some cool characters that not a lot of people like. Ungoliant, Eol, and Mim. Anyways, if I really felt like writing about overlooked characters, I'd go for the types who not much is written about, who not a lot of people care for, and who not even Tolkien seemed to worry about too much. oh well. Saeros. Poor guy! Probably others, too.


----------



## The-Elf-Herself (Jun 8, 2003)

Haleth! Yeah, sure he wrote some stuff on her people, but we really don't know much about her except that she wasn't fond of elves(makes sense, since they didn't show up to help her people until _after_ all the attacks and after huge amounts of them were dead. So much for being an elf-friend), and she was superly strong, stubborn, and never got married. Okay, so maybe there _was_ more information on her than on some other people. I just like her character. Okay, sure um how about Aegnor? There wasn't lots of stuff on him, which was strange, since he was perhaps the only guy elf that fell in love with a human woman. I figured that would make him more important, but he only gets mentioned a little bit in the Athrabeth and a little bit in the Shibboleth of Feanor. And sure, Saeros too. He seemed like more of a handy plot device than anything else.


----------



## Beleg (Jun 8, 2003)

> but we really don't know much about her except that she wasn't fond of elves



Where does it say that?


----------



## The-Elf-Herself (Jun 8, 2003)

Correction: she didn't think much of elves after Caranthir had a conveniently late arrival to help her.


----------



## YayGollum (Jun 8, 2003)

Aegnor = boring, but that lady was cool. I remember some rant you made about her a while ago. Very good! Way too overlooked! One of the few interesting humans!


----------



## Niniel (Jun 9, 2003)

Beleg definitely; I read something about him being 'a less powerful and less important Elf', obviously written by someone who hadn't read the HOME, because it's clear from there that JRRT meant him to be very important.
But acutally almost everyone in the Sil because the stories are so much shorter than in the HOME versions; such as Fingolfin, Finarfin, Fingon, Finduilas, Eöl, Aredhel, Orodreth and many more.


----------



## Lasgalen (Jun 11, 2003)

I agree that Fingon was overlooked. Not much was told about him. Also I would like to add Maglor to the list.


----------



## menchu (Jun 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by YayGollum _
> *Well, if people are saying that characters are overlooked just because other characters have bigger fan clubs, I'd like to toss in the names of some cool characters that not a lot of people like. Ungoliant, Eol, and Mim. Anyways, if I really felt like writing about overlooked characters, I'd go for the types who not much is written about, who not a lot of people care for, and who not even Tolkien seemed to worry about too much. oh well. Saeros. Poor guy! Probably others, too. *


Hehe, I agree about Eöl especially. It ends up being more of a choice of preferences, but I suppose every character deserves the part that's been granted to them.
*waves a little pennant of this hobbit...*


----------



## Inderjit S (Jun 14, 2003)

Finduilas, Fingon and Aegnor. Oh and Bor. And Beleg, he was one hunky Elf- Legolas eat your heart out.


----------



## HelplessModAddi (Jun 16, 2003)

I, for one, would have liked to know more about Gothmog. That could have been interesting - especially with his relationship with Sauron. We get hints at his personality in the way he always shows up. We never hear his name except in combination with some Elf hero he's trying to kill. This, to me, suggests that Gothmog is like the war general who stays behind the lines until its time to do something that will get one famous - like killing all those Elf kings. Thus he is seen as heroic, when in reality all the Elf kings were probably going to die anyway, and Gothmog probably stayed safe in a dark cave during the hardest parts of the battles. Such an outlook makes me question the role of Balrogs in general - being so limited in number, there was no way they could have been used as shock troops, or batallion commanders, or anything else that required them to endager themselves. They must have been war generals. Sauron and his kind would be politicians and administrators in Morgoth's war machine, and the fire beasts would be the battle organizers.

We never hear anything about a Balrog's personality. We know they are great fire demons, but thats about it. They are not mindless beasts - they were Ainur, and thus are Ainur, and thus are sentient, free beings. There were only seven of them during the war of the jewels, meaning there were few enough for each of them to have a distinct personality. I like demons with quirks.


----------



## YayGollum (Jun 16, 2003)

Me, too. Sure thing. Why not? Everyone with quirks would be better, though. oh well. Let me see here. I haven't read The Sil. in a while. How's about any Dwarves that people might actually like? Not too many people are Mim fans for some insane reasons. Why don't we get to learn more about the achingly cool Dwarf dudes? Sure, The Sil. is mostly for the elf lovers, but we get to see all kinds of craziness about a bunch of boring humans. No fair.


----------



## Captain (Jun 17, 2003)

Mablung the Heavyhanded.


----------



## Manveru (Jun 18, 2003)

Quicly changed ... thanks to Beleg's remark
I will be more careful in the future (again--nobody's perfect)
As for most 'overlooked' (now I know its meaning--what a gaffe that was  ) character...I don't really know


----------



## Beleg (Jun 18, 2003)

Beren, Most overlooked character!!!??

Hardly, perhaps the most talked about man in Silmarillion!


----------



## Manveru (Jun 18, 2003)

*Ups...*

What a gaffe *burning to dust exactly where standing*

It was a small misunderstanding...wrong word used (I thought I knew English well enough--nobody's perfect).
I think Gandalf would say: 'Fool of a ... Manveru', but I deserved that. Maybe I even went further (in stupidity) than Pipin at the begining of their quest.

BIG SORRY for that mistake (and Beleg--thanks that you saw that; it gave me time to explain my 'gaffe' in time--others will know)


----------



## jimmyboy (Jul 1, 2003)

I vote for Gil-Galad. He was one of the the chief and most powerful opponents of Sauron in Middle-earth, along with Elendil, yet how much do we know about him? Next to nothing, and he's hardly mentioned at all. How can such a one be overlooked, especially in the Sil, which is mostly about the elves, and he being the High King of the elves in M-E???


----------



## Captain (Jul 2, 2003)

Huor seemed to be very overlooked. I would also have liked to knoe more about Ecthelion.


----------



## TaranisCain (Jul 14, 2003)

I say Lenwe, he led the Teleri who refused to cross the Misty Mtns, they became the Nandor. He was also father to Denethor who led a group of people into Beleraind. Denethor also showed much bravery upon the hill of Amon Ereb, coming to the aid of Thingol. Lenwe, in my opinion deserves some credit for raising such a wonderful boy and a great host of people.


----------



## Old Man Willow (Aug 1, 2003)

Maeglin. His life story goes from living with his father and mother in the dark forest as a child, and then right to his lust for his sister in gondolin and death. Though his legend might not be that important, his tale is rather brief in description.


----------



## Bucky (Aug 16, 2003)

I would say any of the Noldorin princes who's names begin with 'A'.....

They get the least press.

Also, the Balrogs & Gothmog, High Captain of Angband, in particular.

Speaking of Balrogs & Gothmog, a few rebuttles are in order........



> This, to me, suggests that Gothmog is like the war general who stays behind the lines until its time to do something that will get one famous - like killing all those Elf kings
> Thus he is seen as heroic, when in reality all the Elf kings were probably going to die anyway, and Gothmog probably stayed safe in a dark cave during the hardest parts of the battles. Such an outlook makes me question the role of Balrogs in general - being so limited in number, there was no way they could have been used as shock troops, or batallion commanders, or anything else that required them to endager themselves. They must have been war generals.



'Thus began the 4th battle...The Battle Of Sudden Flame.
In the front of the fire came Glaurung, father of dragons, in his full might; & in his train were balrogs, & BEHIND them came the armies of the orcs...'

''Then Morgoth sent forth a terrible cry, that echoed in the mountains.......Far beneath the ruined halls of Angband,...... balrogs lurked still.....and now swiftly they arose, & passing over Hithlum they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire. With their whips of flame they smote assunder the webs of Ungoliant, & she quailed, & turned to flight.'

Then, there's the balrog guarding the secret escape route from Gondolin & fights with Glorfindel. And Gothmog & Ecthellion.

Considering most of the balrogs were destroyed, I guess they did indeed endanger themselves.

So much for that statement......




> Sauron and his kind would be politicians and administrators in Morgoth's war machine, and the fire beasts would be the battle organizers.



'Sauron & his kind'?

I get the impression reading Tolkien that Sauron was a one of a kind being. Very high up the chart as far as Maiar go & 'the greatest & most trusted of the servants of the enemy'. 



> We never hear anything about a Balrog's personality. We know they are great fire demons, but thats about it.



Well, we know what Morgoth was like, right?

'And in Utumno he (Morgoth) gathered his demons about him, those spirits who first adhered to him in the days of his splendor, & became most like him in his corruption'



> There were only seven of them during the war of the jewels



I've heard that before, & I bet it comes from HOME, but I have my doubts whether Tolkien stuck to that in the latest writings.

Why?
Think about it.
Only 7 to begin with in the First Age.....

Two destroyed in The Fall Of Gondolin.
That leaves five.

Yet, in the War Of Wrath, Tolkien states, 'the balrogs were all destroyed, save some few that fled & hid themselves in cavens inaccessable'.

'Few' means at least 2, maybe 3 or more.
If it were only 2, wouldn't he likely say 'several'?
That means 3 or more likely escaped, and at least 2 at the bare minimum.
So, if there were only 5 left, that would mean 'all destroyed' refers to 3 at the most. And that's not how people talk or write. They don't refer to 3 out of 5 as 'all' & 2 out of 5 as 'some few'.
That makes no sense.
Therfore, I must conclude that there was at least a 'few' more than 7 & as there's nothing in finished published form to contradict that. I think it's safe that Tolkien discarded the number 7 & that's why it does not appear in his (mostly) finished published writings.


----------



## HelplessModAddi (Aug 16, 2003)

I was merely speculating. But to lead the charge then, when the Elves where completely unaware and caught absolutely by surprise, did not seem that dangerous. I could (probably am) wrong. But Gothmog does seem, at least, like something of a glory hog. 

About the Sauron comment ... what about Thuringwethil? (The names of Thuringwethil and Saurons first name "Thu" seem to suggest either similar characteristics or actual kinship.... nevermind me, I'm just rambling) Anyway, I have an overactive imagination. Sometimes I imagine arguments between Gothmog and Sauron - them being the two most powerful beings in Morgoths war machine.

And about Balrogs' numbers... I have a dubious idea about that, too.....

Maybe there were seven Super Balrogs, and then a whole bunch of significantly less powerful demons. Like, there were Nine Ringwraiths, but they had the potential to create a whole army of lesser Wraiths by stabbing a bunch of guys with those nifty Morgul-blades.

Whenever I say anything that Tolkien didn't write, its my overactive imagination kicking in. It is probably best to ignore everything I say.


----------



## Bucky (Aug 16, 2003)

> About the Sauron comment ... what about Thuringwethil? (The names of Thuringwethil and Saurons first name "Thu" seem to suggest either similar characteristics or actual kinship.... nevermind me, I'm just rambling)



Seems I heard that one here before.
You'll have to excuse the fact that I never read HOME.....

What's the deal there supposed to be?

As for Gothmog being a 'glory hog', wouldn't it seem logical that he, being the Lord Of The Balrogs & High Captain Of Angband, should be facing off in battle against the leaders of his enemy forces, i.e., Fingon & Feanor, & to a (slightly) lesser degree, Ecthellion? 

In that light, I think it actually shows his prowess in battle.

As for more balrogs, there must be.
Are some lesser than others?
Must be.
After all, one's called 'Lord Of The Balrogs' & another ran away & hid for 5400 years before being accidentally released, then didn't go outside for another 1000 years before Gandalf stumbled on him (why not?).



 

Hey, that's an interesting idea for a thread......


----------



## Beleg (Aug 16, 2003)

Welcome back Bucky. 



> *It is notable that the Balrogs were still at this time, when ThE Lordof the Rings had been completed, conceived to have existed in very Large numbers (Melkor sent forth 'a host of Balrogs'); see p. 80, $50
> *



*Annals of Aman, Morgoth's Ring* 

It seems that as later as the Annals of Aman, Tolkien still envisioned the Balrogs to be present in large numbers, but in the writing of the Annals his ideas changed and he clarified that there were no more then seven Balrogs.


----------



## Bucky (Aug 16, 2003)

Good to be back, Beleg.......

I'm beginning my semi-annual trek through the world of Middle-earth.

I did it different this time. I started with the Sil, now I'm on to The Appendices in ROTK.

I usually go in the order Tolkien published the books, but this time I'm trying chronological order from Middle-earth's beginnings to the end of the 3rd Age..

On Balrogs, I guess the problem here is the publication of works, i.e., The Silmarillion, that had not been properly revised & completely finished by the author.

This leaves a few holes in the story.

As Christopher Tolkien said in the original forward to The Sil, 'a complete consistency within The Sil or JRR Tolkien's other writings on Middle-earth is not to be looked for.' (paraphrase).

Has anyone ever started a thread on some of the larger inconsistencies of The Sil?

I can think of a few......

The number of Balrogs is a very minor one in my opinion, based solely on that comment about 'all' the balrogs being destroyed, 'save some few' that hid.


----------



## Beleg (Aug 16, 2003)

> Has anyone ever started a thread on some of the larger inconsistencies of The Sil?



Oh enough people can be found grumbling about the inconsistencies, not to mention things that C.T edited. 
For example there is the matter of Hurin's sojourn in Brethil, Gil-galád's heritage, the leaving out of the whole statute of Finwe and Miriel etc, etc. 
Since the later part of the Silmarillion wasn't revised by Tolkien, [It was written in early thirtees] C.T and G.K had to do a lot of revisions and editions. 
I believe the people at Barrowdowns are working on a project of moulding the whole legendarium into one book with the minumum of inconsistencies and lesser amount of re-writing not to mention the ambitious legendarium project started by Maerbenn and Herendil of MT. 
Although It would be fun to start a thread where all these things are listen togather....


----------



## Bucky (Aug 16, 2003)

I guess I need to read Morgoth's Ring & The War Of The Jewels.

Honestly, I don't have a problem with Gil-Galad & Ordreth's lineage.
The published form is acceptable to me.

One of the main problem's I see is where Mandos states "Long will you (the Noldor) yearn for your bodies" after being slain, yet when Finrod dies, it says 'but Finrod walks with his father Finafin in Valmar (wherever).'

Big inconsistency.

Another is Tour being counted among the Eldar.
Of course, that was based on speculation.....

The dumbest thing in the whole story is Earendil flying in & fighting Ancalagon the Black during the War Of Wrath. Just plain silly.....

Then, how does Beleriand sink beneath the sea yet all the Host of the West & the Edain & Eldar of Beleriand survive?

I guess Beleriand sank slowly. Real slowly. 


But, I'm nitpicking. It's a great story & I'm glad that CT chose to put it out with it's shortcomings & not bury it with his father's death.

I think the biggest problem lies in the way some of us, like me, view it. When you view it as a story, & just enjoy the telling of the tale itself, you're fine. When you view it as a living history like me (yes, I know it's fake), every little inconsistency gets in the way.


----------



## HelplessModAddi (Aug 16, 2003)

Bah, I want Gothmog to be a glory hog! Wahhhahahah!

Um.... nevermind.

 

About the Beleriand sinking incident..... its probably best not to ask.


----------



## Iarwain (Aug 31, 2003)

I would have like to see more on Gwindor or perhaps Mim


----------



## Maeglin (Sep 18, 2003)

ahhhh....why does this not surprise me? I see that, just as Glorfindel the TTF member is often overlooked, Glorfindel the Tolkien-lore character is even overlooked in the thread about overlooked characters!! Glorfindel the Golden-haired is certainly one of the most overlooked characters.


----------



## Starflower (Sep 19, 2003)

> I believe it is Tuor for he was the father of Earendil and of course his sons were Elros and Elrond who were two pivotol people in the the 2nd and third ages althoguh Elros didnt live that long till the 3rd age.



i agree. What if Tuor's father hadn't died, and Tuor himself been raised by the Grey-Elves, then he would never have gone to look for Gondolin, never fallen for Idril, never had Earendil, and in turn there would have been no Elros and ELrond. There would have been no Numenor, thus, no Gondor, no Aragorn to take up the crown, and there would not have been Arwen to marry him 

SO I think that Tuor is pretty crucial to the whole history of Midlde Earth , and still, we know so very little of him.




Starflower


----------



## Confusticated (Apr 17, 2005)

Edrahil rarely gets a mention. Maybe he didn't have a huge impact on history, but he was one of the best from what we're told.

Any others though?


----------

