# Did Hobbits have a mission?



## Arvedui (Nov 29, 2002)

The first mentioning of Periannath in records are around 1050 T.A., according to the LotR, Appendix B, when the Harfoots came to Eriador. Until then, they were unheard of.
According to the same Appendix, this was about the time when the Istari first appeared:


> When maybe a thousand years had passed, and the first shadow had fallen on Greenwood the great, the Istari or Wizards appeared in Middle-earth. It was afterwards said that they came out of the Far West and were messengers sent to contest the power of Sauron, and to unite all those who had the will to resist him; but they were forbidden to match his power with power, or to seek to dominate Elves or Men by force and fear.


Sauron had existed for thousands of years, and knew well of Men and Elves. Now, while he is still struggling to regain as much of his strength as possible, both the Istari and the Hobbits enter the scene. Sauron has no deep knowledge of either of these. And although the Periannath may seem small in stature, there is obviously a great strength of will in them. We have seen it with Bilbo in 'The Hobbit', with Frodo not giving in at Amon Sûl or the Ford, with Merry and Pipping in Gondor/Pellennor Fields.

Could it be that not only the Istari were sent by the Valar, or Eru, to counter Sauron, but also the Hobbits?


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## Chymaera (Dec 1, 2002)

I don't think that Hobbits were sent, but they obviously had destinies eye on them, so to speak.

You have Sméagol finding the Ring and hiding it. Then you have Bilbo finding it. And then Frodo takes it to Mount Doom where Gollum causes the Ring to be destroyed.

If not for Hobbits the Ring would have been found be much more corruptable creatures (such as Men).


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## Arvedui (Dec 2, 2002)

You strike one of the reasons I was beginning to wonder: the Hobbits are so much harder to corrupt than Men. They withstand the power of the Ring longer than for instance Isildur, who was numenorean. And as I mentioned, we do not know where they came from.
But, this is only a very, very far-fetched idea on my part, and I am gled for any ideas pro or con, that other members come up with. I don't think it is absolutely impossible. And I do believe that Hobbits are a part of the thinking of Eru.


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## Arvedui (Apr 28, 2003)

Is there none other Guildmembers that have any ideas on this subject?

I have been doing some research, and cannot find anything that counters my idea.
What else I have found so far is the following:
1) Not mentioned at all in the 'Music of the Ainur.' So, the Ainur know nothing of Hobbits.
2) Gandalf's unusual interest in Hobbits, coupled with the fact that he according to the Silmarillion, is the wisest of the Maiar. What did he know that made him conviced that the Shire had to be guarded by the best warriors in Middle-earth? Remember that this happened before he knew that Bilbo's Ring was The One.
3) Why did Galadriel give Samwise just _that_ gift? More specific: why a Mallorn tree? In act what was to become the only mallorn west of the mountains.
4) Hobbits come into the Third Age at a desperate time, plays a crucial part in the overthrowing of Sauron, and then fades away. Is this really a coincidence? I don't think so.


So, come on. I know there are Guildmembers with far more wisdom than me. At least in these matters....

Maybe we even could get something going here, at last?


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 28, 2003)

May I barge in with some random thoughts? 



> 2) What did he know that made him conviced that the Shire had to be guarded by the best warriors in Middle-earth?



From _Unfinished Tales; The Hunt for the Ring_:



> It was in this way that Saruman came to give thought to the Halflings and the Shire, which otherwise he would have deemed beneath his notice. He had at first no thought that the interest of his rival in this people had any connexion with the great concerns of the Council, least of all with the Rings of Power, For indeed in the beginning it had no such connexion, and was due only to Gandalf's love for the Little People, unless his heart had some deep premonition beyond his waking thought. For many years he visited the Shire openly, and would speak of its people to any who would listen; and Saruman would smile, as at the idle tales of an old land-rover, but he took heed nonetheless.



According to this passage, Gandalf's interest in the Hobbits was purely pleasure, not business. The fact that he ordered the Shire to be protected, might have been beyond even his own comprehension.



> 1) Not mentioned at all in the 'Music of the Ainur.' So, the Ainur know nothing of Hobbits.



But neither are the Dwarves or Ents. The Hobbits would come at a much later time in the history of Arda. I agree that the Ainur knew nothing of Hobbits - *at first*. As soon as Hobbits began evolving as a separate branch of Men, I'm sure Manwë and Varda were aware of them - this quote seems to imply that Manwë and Varda, when together, see and hear a whole lot, if not in fact everything. I just somehow doubt that the Hobbits would have remained a secret to the Valar.

From _The Silmarillion; The Valaquenta_:



> When Manwë there ascends his throne and looks forth, if Varda is beside him, he sees further than all other eyes, through mist, and through darkness, and over the leagues of the sea. And if Manwë is with her, Varda hears more clearly than all other ears the sound of voices that cry from east to west, from the hills and the valleys, and from the dark places that Melkor has made upon Earth.





> 4) Hobbits come into the Third Age at a desperate time, plays a crucial part in the overthrowing of Sauron, and then fades away. Is this really a coincidence? I don't think so.



I don't think so either, Arvedui. Eru must have put his foot in it. It is just too convenient that Hobbits - small, weak and unimportant - would prove to be the undoing of Sauron, a Maia who had a mind of power and domination, who didn't pay much heed to "small and unimportant" things. It looks to me that sending the Istari _at the very same time_ that the Hobbits came into existance, could be viewed as a diversionary tactic; to avert Sauron's gaze from the Hobbits (who were inhabiting the regions around the Gladden Fields, which was near Sauron's dwelling of Dol Guldur) to seemingly more important matters.



> 3) Why did Galadriel give Samwise just that gift? More specific: why a Mallorn tree? In act what was to become the only mallorn west of the mountains.



I wonder why the mallorns ceased to grow in Lórien. Was it because Galadriel left? Because there were not enough people there to tend to these trees (assuming that the mallorns required special care)?


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## Chymaera (Apr 28, 2003)

Gandalf aka Olórin, sang in the Music of the Ainur. Perhaps Ilúvatar when he was proclaiming the third theme assigned the part concerning Hobbits to Olórin, and he was made responcible for them.

I would like to point out that of all the Major races Elves, Men, and Orcs can all interbreed while Dwarves cannot and Hobbits cannot. We know that Dwarves cannot because they were made seperately by Aulë. We have no proof that Hobbits are a lesser branch related to Men. They could very well be a wholely seperate raceunto themselves.


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Chymaera _
> *I would like to point out that of all the Major races Elves, Men, and Orcs can all interbreed while Dwarves cannot and Hobbits cannot. We know that Dwarves cannot because they were made seperately by Aulë. We have no proof that Hobbits are a lesser branch related to Men. They could very well be a wholely seperate raceunto themselves. *



Does it really matter that Dwarves were made by Aulë? After all, he is an offspring of Eru, and basically everything that the Ainur devise comes from Eru himself. And Eru also gave them life and a place among his Children. 

In the prologue to LOTR, the following is said of Hobbits: 



> It is plain indeed that in spite of later estrangement Hobbits are relatives of ours: far nearer to us than Elves, or even than Dwarves.



I like your idea that Olórin was assigned a theme concerning Hobbits in the Music.


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## Arvedui (Apr 29, 2003)

> May I barge in with some random thoughts?


Absolutely! That is what the thread is here for! 



> According to this passage, Gandalf's interest in the Hobbits was purely pleasure, not business. The fact that he ordered the Shire to be protected, might have been beyond even his own comprehension.


IMO, it was not purely pleasure. Even the last part of your blue-colored quote hints at this:


> unless his heart had some deep premonition beyond his waking thought.


I am not so sure if Manwë and/or Varda knew about Hobbits:
_From The Silmarillion:_


> And many other things Ilúvatar spoketo the Ainur at that time, and because of their memory of his words, and the knowledge that each has of the music that he himself made, the Ainur knew much of what was, and is, and is to come, and few things are unseen by them. Yet some things there are that they cannot see, neither alone nor taking counsel together; for to none but himself has Ilúvatar revealed all that he has in store, and in every age there come forth things that are new and have no foretelling, for they do not proceed from the past.


If Hobbits were indeed offspring of Men, then that does not imply that they cannot have a special 'mission' anyhow, does it?


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Arvedui _
> *IMO, it was not purely pleasure. Even the last part of your blue-colored quote hints at this:
> *





> unless his heart had some deep premonition beyond his waking thought.



This part of the quote doesn't strike me as exactly "firm" evidence. Besides, it says "some deep premonition _beyond his waking thought_" 
"Beyond his waking thought" means that the idea of the Hobbits' importance was put into his mind, presumably by Eru. He did not take interest in Hobbits because they might have some importance in the future, so that's why I think it was (purely) pleasure, for a long time.


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## Arvedui (Apr 29, 2003)

Exactly what I was thinking as well. Eru was leading Olorin along the right path, even before Olorin himself understood the importance of Hobbits.
Firm evidence? I don't think there is any 'firm evidence' at all in this matter. But IMO there is a lot of what we in Norway call 'indisier.' That is when you have no firm evidence, but a lot of minor details that indicates that this is so.

5 + 5 = 10
5 + X = Possibly also 10
(If you understand what I try to say. I'm not sure if I do myself.... )


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Arvedui _
> *Eru was leading Olorin along the right path, even before Olorin himself understood the importance of Hobbits.
> *



Indeed. But the question was:



> 2) Gandalf's unusual interest in Hobbits, coupled with the fact that he according to the Silmarillion, is the wisest of the Maiar. [color=sky blue]What did he know[/color] that made him conviced that the Shire had to be guarded by the best warriors in Middle-earth?



If Gandalf was guided by Eru subcosciously, he can't have _known_ the importance of Hobbits himself. Therefore, I insist that *Gandalf's* interest in the Hobbits (not Eru's) was purely a pastime, and the "thoughts" that Eru gave him, began to unravel slowly but surely in the course of time.

Oh well.


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## Arvedui (Apr 29, 2003)

Well, if you insist on answering the questions one by one, without referring to their total, then I get your point, but IMO, you are then missing the question in the initial post:


> Could it be that not only the Istari were sent by the Valar, or Eru, to counter Sauron, but also the Hobbits?


The question concerning Gandal's knowledge of Hobbits are just one part of my reasoning.


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## Walter (Apr 29, 2003)

From a somewhat different standpoint: Hobbits did indeed have a mission!

They very much represent modern (in terms of the 1930s) middle-class englishmen. And as such they are introduced - at least in the beginning of the tales - as a mediator in the stories, mediating between the "modern" world and the age old world of giants, elves, dwarves and gods that is about 2 millennia older...


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## Confusticated (Apr 29, 2003)

They are mediators for us.

But as for mission within the story I agree with what Arvedui is saying. Didn't know non-members could post here or I would have long ago, I did PM Arvedui with my thoughts though.

I think the hobbits were a subrace of men, and happend for the purpose of defeating Sauron.

Them being in the Ainulindale would be no reason to think this was not so. That would actually be more convincing to me. It would show that (assuming hobbits are from men) that something major was planned within a race that has freewill. This could still have happend later though, by some greater power shaping things.

My PM to Arvedui:


> I just want to let you know that I also think there is a good chance that the race of hobbits happend for the prupose of defeating Sauron. I hadn't even thought about all the things you have posted, it is just more of a feeling I get. In the course of all the history they existsed for a relatively short amount of time, and I think they reached their prime right at the end of the Third Age. The timing is striking. They may either have been used because they were available and happend to be good for the job, but I rather think they were there and good for it because they needed to be.
> 
> Anyhow... just wanted to let you know that you are not alone in this thought. I think no one can disprove this, and even without the feeling I get, the hard evidence makes this likely.



My intuitive feeling aside, this looks likely.


> Hobbits on the other hand were in nearly all respects normal Men, but of very short stature.





> In their unrecorded past they must have been a primitive, indeed 'savage' people, but when we meet them they had (in varying degrees) acquired many arts and cussoms by contacts with Men, and to a less extent with Dwarves and Elves. With Men of normal stature they recognized theur close kinship, whereas Dwarvs or Elves, whether frinedly or hostile. were aliens, with whom their relations were uneasy and clouded by fear.





> This evidently reflects the troubles of Gondor in the earlier part of the Third Age. The increase in Men was not the normal increase of those with whom they ad friendship, but the steady increase of invaders from the East, futher south held in check by Gondor, but in the North beyond the bounds of the Kingdom harassing the older 'Atanic' inhabitants, and even in place occupying the Forest and coming though into the Anduin valley. But the shadow of which the tradition spoke was not solely due to the human invasion. Plainly the Hobbits has sensed, even before the Wizards and the Eldar had become fully aware of it, the awakening of Sauron and his occupation of Dol Guldur.


These quotes from PoMe show how much they were like men, how they had a special ability to sense evil but avoided it, and how they grew from being a savage people. If they happend for any reason it must have been to defeat Sauron. Now if they happend for no reason at all, it is a striking coincidence to me.


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## Walter (Apr 29, 2003)

I don't think that Hobbis are mediators just for us. They were mediators for the story (LotR) as well as in the mythology.

I think we must not loose sight of the fact that they were an invention particularly designed for a children's story at first. As much as Tolkien seemed to regret that later, "The Hobbit" was designed as a childrens' story, put into the environment of classical fairy-tales or sagas, spiced with some details from Tolkien's own mythology.

Actually, Tolkien seemed rather tired of them already 1937 when he wrote:


> All the same I am a little perturbed. I cannot think of anything more to say about hobbits. Mr Baggins seems to have exhibited so fully both the Took and the Baggins side of their nature. But I have only too much to say, and much already written, about the world into which the hobbit intruded. You can, of course, see any of it, and say what you like about it, if and when you wish. I should rather like an opinion, other than that of Mrs C.S.Lewis and my children, whether it has any value in itself, or as a marketable commodity, apart from hobbits. But if it is true that The Hobbit has come to stay and more will be wanted, I will start the process of thought, and try to get some idea of a theme drawn from this material for treatment in a similar style and for a similar audience – possibly including actual hobbits.


To me, that doesn't sound all too enthusiastic...

As much as Bilbo was the mediator between the medieval world of dwarves and dragons and the modern english world, as much are it the hobbits in general - as a race - for the LotR. Placed there out of the necessity to write a sequel for "The Hobbit". 

Hence it - to me - seems clear why they don't have much of an own history: they simply did not exist - neither in Tolkien's mind nor in his mythology before "The Hobbit" was written. And it doesn't appear as if much further thought was given to them when the LotR was finished. And why? IMO because they simply are an invention of Tolkien whereas everything else in Tolkien's mythology (not LotR!) exists in "real" mythology too... 

And from a somewhat more "inside point of view", frankly, Eru, the One, the omniscient, omnipotent All-father, creating a whole race for the sole purpose of defeating Sauron? 

If he really wanted to destroy Sauron a single "flash" out of the blue, wavering his hand, or bending his thought to that matter for just a nanosecond would've sufficed. But Eru seems very reluctant to interfer directly when some of his fallen angels create havoc, only when in a tight corner he sends the cavallery (Valar). In Sauron's case he evidently agreed with the Valar, that a few from the middle-management (Istari) would do...


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## Celebthôl (Apr 29, 2003)

A bit late but whatever, it may have been said already but i cant be bothered to read all that 

I believe that Hobbits were created but Ilúvatar and a secret kept only by himself, as a 3rd children of Ilúvatar...


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Celebthôl _
> *I believe that Hobbits were created but Ilúvatar and a secret kept only by himself, as a 3rd children of Ilúvatar... *



Nah, I don't think that something as important as the 3rd Children of Ilúvatar would have been kept secret and never mentioned.


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## Celebthôl (Apr 29, 2003)

well he might have created them in haste for this very purpose hence their small deminer (if that is the right word)


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Celebthôl _
> *well he might have created them in haste for this very purpose hence their small deminer (if that is the right word) *



I don't see Ilúvatar doing anything "in haste". I think that the Hobbits merely evolved from Men at the time which Eru set.


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## Walter (Apr 29, 2003)

Celebthôl, thank you for your contribution...


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## Celebthôl (Apr 29, 2003)

hey i was only j/k  anywho

if they evolved from men why are Hobbits:

more Willful (i think)
smaller
have hairy feet
not involved in anything,

and a new evolution thing doesnt just appear as hobbits did it would take time to get the new evolved state to pass out etc...


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## Chymaera (Apr 29, 2003)

The problem is that Tolkien never fully intergrated The Hobbits into his into the Silmarillion mythology. As Walter stated more or less   


I don't know Tolkien's stand on Evolutionism/Creationism in general but he obviously was a Creationist in these stories.


So why have Hobbit as a evolutionary limb of the Tree of Man?

Not much reason I think.


Hobbits were strictly Third Age creatures.

Arvedui I can see where you would assosiate with Wizards. The Istari were also creatures of the Third Age.


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## Arvedui (Apr 30, 2003)

Exactly.
And as I said, only one of the Istari stayed true to their original task, Just like just a few of the Hobbits were crucial to the outcome of the history.
And, like the Istari, they emerge at the same time and later faded slowly out of history.
A far-fetched idea on the fading-away thing: If we assume that Gandalf (eventually) knew Eru's plans (or whatever) for the Hobbits, is it not possible that it was Gandalf that convinced King Elessar to issue his famous Edict in 1427? (I still find it hard to accept that defeat to the Periaur   )


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## Chymaera (May 4, 2003)

As for their 'Mission' it probably had something to do with vegtables and flowers.


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## Ithrynluin (May 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Chymaera _
> *As for their 'Mission' it probably had something to do with vegtables and flowers.   *



Are you suggesting that Hobbits were the spirits that Yavanna sent among the kelvar and the olvar? Since Ents are the shepherds of Trees, Hobbits are the shepherds of vegetables. Neat, ain't it?


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## Chymaera (May 4, 2003)

Just look at my post in the Question Bank!


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## Ancalagon (May 4, 2003)

_Did Hobbits have a Mission?_

I suppose one must ask whether Hobbits (as a Race) were simply brought into Middle-Earth to destroy the Ring, which they did and then seemingly retire from active duty and fade away once their task was complete! This seems to sum up this race in its entirety if we suppose that this was their sole mission.


> Yet in that hour was put to the proof that which Mithrandir had spoken, and help came from the hands of the weak when the Wise faltered. For, as many songs have since sung, it was the Periannath, the Little People, dwellers in hillsides and meadows, that brought them deliverance.


 *The Silmarillion* However, one would ask why then would an entire race be created that would have a single purpose upon Arda, to remove Sauron? This I beleive is unrealistic and not a theory I could subscribe to.

The comparison is made between the Istari and Hobbits to illustrate this point, that both may have been servants of Eru (the Valar) with a single mission. Both it seems appear in Middle-Earth, do their tasks accordingly and to their own measure and once complete, seemingly melt away into the background, never to be heard from again. Only 5 (or so) Istari, and an entire race of of Hobbits? My first reaction is that the reasoning for both Eru and Tolkien alike would be totally illogical, that it would seem a Dwarf, Elf or Man might suffice in order to complete the task. On the other hand;


> Behind that there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-Maker. I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was MEANT to find the ring, and NOT by its maker. In which case you also were MEANT to have it. And that may be an encouraging thought


*The Fellowship of the Ring* I do not believe that Hobbits were specifically tasked with this role as part of their purpose for being granted an existence, however there is no doubting that they were directed to playing a part in this unfolding story, as were all the inhabitants of Middle-Earth at this time. Hobbits it would seem were no more than a portrayal of the weak exhibiting extraordinary valour in the face of dreadful adversity; and it took 2 in particular to prove this point.


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## Celebthôl (May 5, 2003)

would those two be Sam and Frodo who go to pretty much hell?
or Merry and Pippin who fight in massive battles?
And i think you are right where you said

"I do not believe that Hobbits were specifically tasked with this role as part of their purpose for being granted an existence"

As this would be totally wrong and all Eru would have to do is invtervine (sp) and build out on the charactersitics of a Man, Elve or Dwarve to give them the required bravery and will power to do the task (is this making sense?)

The reason i think that Hobbits were created was so that there was innocents left in the world...for a time, lets break this down:

Elves - mostly in Valinor, very secretive on ME, have run their course'

Men - nearly all the "good" Men have died out, fight to keep ME as it is, dont live altogether happy lives,

Dwarves - never cared about anything other than delving into moutains for precious things

A new race is required as far away from trouble as possible i.e. where the Shire is (if we theorise that they moved there due to "fate") and they are kept safe and "nieve" until the last possible second when all else fails, could be the last hope of Eru to see a happy race in ME?!

Thôl


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## Arvedui (May 5, 2003)

I have to admit that you are both pointing one something that might indicate that it is not as I am speculating, although I do not altogether agree. Why should I?
There is the obvious question if Eru should create a whole race of people with just this one purpose in mind. Of course it may seem to go to the extremes, but why not? After all, he is Eru, the One, whose complete purposes we will never know. 
Is that reason enough to believe that he should _not_ create hobbits with this sole purpose in mind? 
What then was their purpose?
All other races had a purpose, with the possible exeption of the Drúedain.


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## Celebthôl (May 5, 2003)

thats not necissarily true:

Elves: to prepaire the world for Men

Men: to live after Elves with no imediate purpose

Dwarves: no purpose at all

Orcs: unknown pretty much

Hobbits: also unknown

3 of those races were not intended to be by Eru and there was no task for them primarilly...though for Hobbits it is questionable, but if they have a task why dont Dwarves and Orcs? they are all sencient beings...


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## Arvedui (May 5, 2003)

Which three were not intended to be by Eru?
I understand that Dwarves and orcs are two of them, but which is the third?
If you are implying that Hobbits were not intended by Eru, then I want to know where they came from.
Aulë created Dwarves, and Morgoth must take the responsibility for the Orcs. 
Who created Hobbits?

Still, I get your point. If it might be that there was a purpose for the Hobbits, there just as well might be that there was no clear purpose. I am still hoping that someone can find some clear quote that will take the answer either this way or that.
(Of course, hopefully my way )


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## Celebthôl (May 5, 2003)

LOL, well Eru in the begging didnt intened for Hobbits, he created Men and Elves and they were to inherit the world together and to be together on it, but due to certain evil meanie Gods not naming anybody inperticular *cough*Morgoth*cough* more action was needed, for Morgoth somehow in some way created Orcs and we all know the histories of it all, and eventually durasic measures were needed namely the creation of a new race, but the purpose of this new race is hidden from all, we can only guess...someone come up with the quote PLEASE


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## Arvedui (Apr 19, 2004)

Thread moved from the Guild of Ost-in-Edhil, with the hope that more members voice their opinions.

Enjoy.


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## Thorondor_ (May 20, 2005)

As Inderjit asked in a thread, are characters in Tolkien's world "woodden", static? Evolution of races has also been questioned, at least in another thread.
My opinion would be that we are dealing with actual stages of a person's development, not with races. And the hobbits would represent the child, elves - the anima/animus, Istari - the Old Wise Man, and the humans (at least their heroes) the mature person. Where would hobbits come from? Not from the Ainur, they would also be a step in one's evolution; they (the children) would come from the very source of life - Eru himself.


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