# Did Galadriel and Celeborn fight in War of Wrath?



## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 10, 2021)

"Of the march of the host of the Valar to the north of Middle-earth little is said in any tale; for among them went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they only learned long afterwards from their kinsfolk in Aman."

This quote does not imply that no Elves from Beleriand participated in the War.

What it do tell us is that the events of the journey, from Valinor to the battlefields in Middle-earth, were mostly unknown to the Elves in Beleriand - since they were already in Beleriand.

"But at the last Fionwë came up out of the West, and the challenge of his trumpets filled the sky; and he summoned unto him all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East; and Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of his arms, for the sons of the Gods were young and fair and terrible, and the mountains rang beneath their feet. The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, the Battle Terrible, and the War of Wrath."

This was the last time JRR Tolkien revised War of Wrath chapter, which was in 1937.

As is clear above, Fionwë/Eönwë "summoned unto him all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East" to battle, meaning the Elves of Beleriand joined.

It should be noted that in the 1948 version of Galadriel where she was in Lorien at the time of War of Wrath, it is said "too late she heard the summons of Fionwë". This means the Elves from east of the Misty Mountains did not participate in WoW. They heard the summons too late. (Celeborn and Galadriel were in Beleriand in 1955-1972 versions)

From the 1973 version of Galadriel and Celeborn: "In the years after they did not join in the war against Angband, which they judged to be hopeless under the ban of the Valar and without their aid; and their counsel was to withdraw from Beleriand and to build up a power to the eastward (whence they feared that Morgoth would draw reinforcement), befriending and teaching the Dark Elves and Men of those regions. But such a policy having no hope of acceptance among the Elves of Beleriand, Galadriel and Celeborn departed over Ered Lindon before the end of the First Age"

As is clear above, Galadriel and Celeborn did not join in the war against Angband because the Valar did not send aid and nobdoy listened to their advise. After the Valar sent aid and Eonwë summoned them, they must've answered and moved from Eriador to Beleriand to participate in War of Wrath. There was now no reason to not join. Their problem was solved; the Valar sent aid.

In the "Canonical" version of Galadriel and Celeborn their reason to not join in the war against Morgoth must've been wholly different. These reasonings from the 1973 version do not appear in the earlier versions of them. Canonically Celeborn was a Prince of Doriath and was a subject of Thingol, and Thingol had banned his people from participating in the war. Galadriel was a rebel leader and she had heard from Mandos that the Valar won't aid them and she willingly rejected the message of Mandos, as opposed to her 1973 version in which she wasn't present during Mandos speech and she wasn't a rebel. She became a subject of Thingol, and therefore she was banned from participating in the war. But given her character description, I highly doubt if she cared about Thingol's command. Her reasons to not flee from Doriath and join the war must've been wholly different. If she had disobeyed Thingol, she could never return to Doriath to see her husband and her bestfriend. And. "she did not love the sons of Feanor" "she burned with desire ... to thwart him [Feanor]", these and many other quotes about her hatred towards Feanor and his sons tell us that she was not willing to aid Feanorians in their wars. But I think the bigger factor was her good listening ears for the guidance and wisdom of Melian. "and of her she learned great wisdom and lore concerning Middle-earth." Melian must've talked her out of this and convinced her to remain in Doriath.

In the 1955-1972 versions, the canon versions, Galadriel and Celeborn were present in Beleriand during the War of Wrath. They never departed over Ered Luin until early Second Age. They were most probably in Balar when Eonwë reached to Hithlum. There was now no reasons for G&C to not fight. Therefore, they must've definitely answered the summons and fought in this war.


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## m4r35n357 (Sep 10, 2021)

Glad I read your whole post and not just the title 

This is currently a hot issue elsewhere, for various reasons, your post seems to resonate in a few areas with mine here.


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## Olorgando (Sep 10, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> As is clear above, Fionwë/Eönwë "summoned unto him all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East" to battle, meaning the Elves of Beleriand joined.


Objection! Hithlum and Beleriand are distinct parts of First Age Middle-earth west of the Ered Luin. Hithlum was to the north-west of Beleriand, separated from West Beleriand by mountains. Also, I would guess that Beleriand was depopulated as far as Elves and Men went, and the distance to East Beleriand was quite a stretch for any summons to reach in any reasonable time.


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## Elthir (Sep 10, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> This was the last time JRR Tolkien revised War of Wrath chapter, which was in 1937.



Just to add, Tolkien made cursory emendations to the conclusion of QS later, concerning which, however, Christopher Tolkien warns readers that this "action" need not mean the section was fully
updated at this later time.

Also, a later addition (later than QS HOME V or AB2) to _*The Tales of Years*_ is yet another ingredient in this War or Wrathy soup in any case, which notation has been raised in the thread *m4r35n357* linked to. 

🐾


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 10, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> Objection! Hithlum and Beleriand are distinct parts of First Age Middle-earth west of the Ered Luin. Hithlum was to the north-west of Beleriand, separated from West Beleriand by mountains. Also, I would guess that Beleriand was depopulated as far as Elves and Men went, and the distance to East Beleriand was quite a stretch for any summons


You know very well I meant the Elves who had lived in Beleriand, and now were in Ossiriand and Balar etc, heard and answered the summons.



Elthir said:


> Tolkien made cursory emendations to the conclusion of QS later,


Did he amend the whole chapter or did he write anything against the paragraphs quoted from the1937 Silmarillion? There isn't any as far as I know.


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## Elthir (Sep 10, 2021)

Just to add it here, The Tale of Years (WJ) version A (again, later that QS HME V or AB2 at least):
540: *"The last free Elves and remnants of the Fathers of Men are driven out of Beleriand 
and take refuge in the Isle Balar."*

[547: The host of the Valar come out of the West and land in Beleriand.]


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## Olorgando (Sep 10, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> You know very well I meant the Elves who had lived in Beleriand, and now were in Ossiriand and Balar etc, heard and answered the summons.





TheManInTheMoon said:


> "Of the march of the host of the Valar to the north of Middle-earth little is said in any tale; for among them went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they only learned long afterwards from their kinsfolk in Aman."
> This quote does not imply that no Elves from Beleriand participated in the War.


I see "none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands" quite differently; the statement is unequivocal.
For that matter I also seriously doubt that there were any Elves left in Hithlum. Men, yes, but many if not most of those must have been Easterlings.
Seems JRRT had some serious revising to do to these passages from 1937, which he never got around to.


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 10, 2021)

Sure, if you take it out of context.


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## m4r35n357 (Sep 10, 2021)

Elthir said:


> Just to add it here, The Tale of Years (WJ) version A (again, later that QS HME V or AB2 at least):
> 540: *"The last free Elves and remnants of the Fathers of Men are driven out of Beleriand
> and take refuge in the Isle Balar."*
> 
> [547: The host of the Valar come out of the West and land in Beleriand.]


[540] (LAB, the Later Annals of Beleriand) already says that the sons of Feanor had retreated there from Amon Ereb (presumably with the remnants of Sirion from the third kinslaying), so that is more of a clarification (and therefore a ratification of LAB) than a change to the story I think.
[547] in LAB already pretty much says this, so the TOY again ratifies the existing story rather than indicating any changes.

The Balar thing does make it more plausible that they did not take part, but they still could have gone if they wanted to, I think. They _were_ included in the summons by any reading that I can make (and the "strict" definition of Beleriand is not enough to convince me otherwise!). I wonder now (*last free Elves*) about the Green Elves, they stayed in Beleriand to populate Lindon as I understand things . . . . did they really go to Balar first?.

The most interesting part to me in the TOY is the idea of the sons of Feanor intercepting the dwarves, and finding the necklace "not there". But I digress.



Olorgando said:


> I see "none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands" quite differently; the statement is unequivocal.


But that sentence only really gains meaning via non-canon (CT) deletion of the following sentence about the summons. If the two sentences are read together they are potentially confusing. SInce the "none of those elves" statement doesn't really add a great deal to the narrative (and also makes the Elves look ungracious compared with the Edain, who _did_ fight), I would have been inclined to drop the first sentence and retain the summons.

Then this horrible misunderstanding would not have arisen


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 10, 2021)

Since Tolkien never settled on a decision (especially in regards to Galadriel & Celeborn) I don't think we can say for sure. Choose the one that sits best in your mind.

I should note, however, that Elrond was apparently part of the War of Wrath as he explicitly mentions at least having SEEN the hosts (in The Lord of the Rings).


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 10, 2021)

From Hithlum unto the East... Eonwë's summons reached to Eriador. Let alone Balar. I mean, if I was Finarfin, I would've sent at first to my daughter and the descendant that I had never seen. And we know GilGalad and Galadriel were two of the most valiant Elves, far more brave than all the Edain. They both had fought in far worse desperate battles which they had barely any chance of surviving. It's funny to assume they didn't answer the summons of their father and forefather and the Herald and preferred to be cowards.

Definitely they and Cirdan led the Elves of Balar to join with the host of Eonwë.



ZehnWaters said:


> Since Tolkien never settled on a decision (especially in regards to Galadriel & Celeborn) I don't think we can say for sure. Choose the one that sits best in your mind.


The version in which G&C were in Lorien in FA was completely abandoned. Period.

Whether you go by the canon version where they were in Balar, or you go by the latest version where they were in Eriador, they heard the summons sooner or later. If anyone fought, it must've been these two. Since Tolkien unambiguous stated the reasons why they didn't fight against Angband, both directly explicitly and indirectly explicitly. Now in the time of WoW none of their reasons of not fighting against Angband existed anymore, they were solved. The only way you can say they didn't fight in WoW is by assuming they were injured heavily and they were unable to fight (and that's a far of a wild and odd assumption).


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## Olorgando (Sep 10, 2021)

The context is "hither lands"; that's everything east of the Great Sea.
Elves who did fight in the Host of the Valar were the Vanyar (the "Spear-Elves") and those Noldor who had not left Valinor during the rebellion.
The Teleri pointedly did not, due to the attack on Alqualondë and the first Kin-slaying during the rebellion of the followers of Fëanor, but at least they manned the ships that brought the others east to Middle-earth (though they refuse to set foot "here", IIRC).
"Hither lands" is also unequivocal, then. "Dwelt" would mean everywhere, and "suffered" all Elves west of the Blue Mountains - maybe even some east.


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 10, 2021)

We know what hither lands mean. We are arguing that the people of Hither Lands did not know much about the journey of the host of the Valar from Valinor to the north of Middle-earth. Then Tolkien proceeds to tell us that at last the host of the Valar reached to Middle-earth and summoned the Elves of Middle-earth to join them.

It's unambiguously stated Elrond was in the host of the Valar during the fall of the Mountains of Morgoth. Elrond was a loremaster and he and Bilbo wrote the histories. But Elrond just like the other Elves of Middle-earth did not know much about the journey of the host of the Valar to Middle-earth. Because he already was in Middle-earth. He only joined the host of the Valar after he heard the summons of Eonwë.


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## Olorgando (Sep 10, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> Definitely they [_I assume here you mean GilGalad and Galadriel_] and Cirdan led the Elves of Balar to join with the host of Eonwë.





TheManInTheMoon said:


> Whether you go by the canon version where they were in Balar, ...


Second point first: there is no canon version in the strict sense; that's your preference, which you are absolutely free to make, obviously.
I just disagree, definitely.
And as to Galadriel (and that might - must? - imply Celeborn) being on Balar - I'd like a quote of where that is ever stated explicitly (book please; though I have all of HoMe, there are parts that refuse to stick in memory).


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 10, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> there is no canon version


What I meant by "Canon" was a reference to author published statements in LOTR Appendices and RGEO.



Olorgando said:


> And as to Galadriel (and that might - must? - imply Celeborn) being on Balar


They were on Balar as much as GilGalad (Arafinwian versions) and Celebrimbor were. In other word, none of these are explicitly stated to be on Balar. But it's stated that they were in Beleriand. And it's stated that the Elves of Nargothrond and Doriath retreated to Sirion. And it's stated that Cirdan took them to Balar.

They had no other places to go, except to cross the mountains, which they didn't until Second Age.


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## Olorgando (Sep 10, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> We know what hither lands mean.


You know what Hither Lands means to you. Please don't assume you know what it means to me; I do not assume I know what it means to you.
I'm a bookworm, but except for JRRT my reading is overwhelmingly non-fiction. My (our) personal "library" consist of way over 1,000 books. In my reading, I've come across all to many quotes of what I call "preemptive we's". By now, I do not react kindly to them. It's the matter of unchallenged assumptions, and there are very few assumptions I come across that I do not challenge. Let's put it this way: I have not mellowed with age, quite the contrary.


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## Olorgando (Sep 10, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> What I meant by "Canon" was a reference to author published statements in LOTR Appendices and RGEO.
> 
> 
> They were on Balar as much as GilGalad (Arafinwian versions) and Celebrimbor were. In other word, none of these are explicitly stated to be on Balar. But it's stated that they were in Beleriand. And it's stated that the Elves of Nargothrond and Doriath retreated to Sirion. And it's stated that Cirdan took them to Balar.
> ...


Those are assumptions that have some correlational merit. But not causal, which I have the impression (perhaps wrongly) that you are implying.
Causality, correlation, coincidence - you could find the odd post of mine where I take a very strict line on their relative occurrence (though, to be truthful, scattered as they are in threads and time, I might have trouble finding them myself).


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 10, 2021)

Ah yes the chief survivors of Doriath and Nargothrond were in the enemies lands and heavily dangerous lands.

Next thing you are going to tell me is that Morgoth was GilGalad's dad.


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## Elthir (Sep 10, 2021)

m4r35n357 said:


> [540] (LAB, the Later Annals of Beleriand) . . .



Ach (with German ach-laut sound)! I thought we were calling this AB2 



m4r35n357 said:


> already says that the sons of Feanor had retreated there from Amon Ereb (presumably with the remnants of Sirion from the third kinslaying), so that is more of a clarification (and therefore a ratification of LAB) than a change to the story I think.



Yes. AB2 [540] Maedros and Maglor dwelt in hiding _"in the south of Eastern Beleriand, about Amon Ereb,"_ but Morgoth sent against them, and they fled to Balar: _"Now Morgoth's triumph was complete, and none were left there, Elves of Men, save such as his thralls."_

If this TOY reference is indeed a ratification of AB2 (TOY: *"The last free Elves and remnants of the Fathers of Men are driven out of Beleriand and take refuge in the Isle Balar."*) who is Eonwe summoning (QS HOMEV) *"all Elves and Men* *from Hithlum unto the East"*?

I'm not arguing, b'just trying to clarify your interpretation of this part.



m4r35n357 said:


> The Balar thing does make it more plausible that they did not take part, but they still could have gone if they wanted to, I think.



And as I know you know, AB2 specifically notes, that "many" did not obey this summons (the AB2 version of the summons at least) in any case.


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 10, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> The version in which G&C were in Lorien in FA was completely abandoned. Period.
> 
> Whether you go by the canon version where they were in Balar, or you go by the latest version where they were in Eriador, they heard the summons sooner or later. If anyone fought, it must've been these two. Since Tolkien unambiguous stated the reasons why they didn't fight against Angband, both directly explicitly and indirectly explicitly. Now in the time of WoW none of their reasons of not fighting against Angband existed anymore, they were solved. The only way you can say they didn't fight in WoW is by assuming they were injured heavily and they were unable to fight (and that's a far of a wild and odd assumption).



This also seems to work a little bit better if one accepts the account of Galadriel and Celeborn if they come separately from the rest of the Noldor in Celeborn's ship; they came under the Ban but, presumably, not to the same degree of punishment. It would explain their survival (those that lived seemed to mostly be the more innocent Noldor).


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## m4r35n357 (Sep 10, 2021)

Elthir said:


> Ach (with German ach-laut sound)! I thought we were calling this AB2


Oops, yes, we are.


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 10, 2021)

ZehnWaters said:


> This also seems to work a little bit better if one accepts the account of Galadriel and Celeborn if they come separately from the rest of the Noldor in Celeborn's ship; they came under the Ban but, presumably, not to the same degree of punishment. It would explain there survival (those that lived seemed to mostly be the more innocent Noldor).


Galadriel lived because she didn't swear an oath and she listened to Melian and over time she gradually grew wiser and wiser. That's the most compelling version. I don't like that version where she's pretty much perfect from the beginning.

There were no dangers for Galadriel and Celeborn in War of Wrath as long as they stayed near the Maiar and didn't do anything crazy rash idiotic.

Remember that they survived in the battles that had more chance of being killed in them. Far more. They barely survived the Kinslayings and the Fall of Eregion.


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## m4r35n357 (Sep 10, 2021)

Elthir said:


> If this TOY reference is indeed a ratification of AB2 (TOY: *"The last free Elves and remnants of the Fathers of Men are driven out of Beleriand and take refuge in the Isle Balar."*) who is Eonwe summoning (QS HOMEV) *"all Elves and Men* *from Hithlum unto the East"*?
> 
> I'm not arguing, b'just trying to clarify your interpretation of this part.


I suppose I would say: the Elves & Men in Balar, Elves & Men in Hithlum, the Elves of Ossiriand, and any Elves or Men living wild in "Greater Beleriand" (including Doriath).



Elthir said:


> And as I know you know, AB2 specifically notes, that "many" did not obey this summons (the AB2 version of the summons at least) in any case.


True. We were talking about "not being summoned in the first place" rather than "disobeying the summons", though.


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 10, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> Galadriel lived because she didn't swear an oath and she listened to Melian and over time she gradually grew wiser and wiser. That's the most compelling version. I don't like that version where she's pretty much perfect from the beginning.



She's still prideful and rash. She left Valinor to seek revenge upon Fëanor after all (leastwise that's how I interpreted it).



TheManInTheMoon said:


> There were no dangers for Galadriel and Celeborn in War of Wrath as long as they stayed near the Maiar and didn't do anything crazy rash idiotic.
> 
> Remember that they survived in the battles that had more chance of being killed in them. Far more. They barely survived the Kinslayings and the Fall of Eregion.


True. To be fair, Galadriel is supposed to be one of the most powerful Elves in existence so it makes sense they'd survive. Celeborn is also stated to be one of the wisest of Elves.


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## Olorgando (Sep 10, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> Ah yes the chief survivors of Doriath and Nargothrond were in the enemies lands and heavily dangerous lands.
> Next thing you are going to tell me is that Morgoth was GilGalad's dad.


Your assumptions about my assumptions leave more and more to be desired. And it's Gil-galad. 🤨


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 10, 2021)

ZehnWaters said:


> She's still prideful and rash. She left Valinor to seek revenge upon Fëanor after all (leastwise that's how I interpreted it).


She left Valinor to seek freedom and her dreams in Middle-earth. Killing Feanor was also a dominant motive as well.

But she was wise enough to listen to Melian.

She was still rash indeed, even in the end of FA, when she rejected the pardon of the Valar for pride and love of all who had fought against Morgoth and said she'll rather stay in Middle-earth and never return to Valinor.

But still, she was not rash to charge against a Maia to fight it singlehandedly and get herself killed. Especially not when unnecessary, such as in the War of Wrath. She had enough aid.




ZehnWaters said:


> Galadriel is supposed to be one of the most powerful Elves in existence


After the death of Feanor and Luthien she became the most powerful Elf.

According to SoF, perhaps only Feanor was greater than Galadriel among the Elves of Aman, and only Luthien was greater than Feanor and Galadriel.

BTW, her fighting in WoW is also in line with her great desire to oppose Feanor and his sons. Because the result of the victory would've been the loss of the Silmarils for Feanorians forever; the Valar would've took the Silmarils for themselves (they really didn't see it through that Maglor and Maedhros would be so out of their minds to try to steal the Silmarils from the camp of Eonwë). And anyway, after committing so much evil, any of the Wise suspected rightly that the Feanorians are no longer clean enough to be able to touch the Silmarils.



Elthir said:


> And as I know you know, AB2 specifically notes, that "many" did not obey this summons (the AB2 version of the summons at least) in any case.


These were most probably people like Oropher who hated the Noldor. And people like Nandor who desired to be free of any conflict as much as possible. And of course the people who were too injured to fight.


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## Elthir (Sep 10, 2021)

*Elthir* (me) wrote: "TOY: *"The last free Elves and remnants of the Fathers of Men are **driven out of Beleriand** and take refuge in the Isle Balar."*) who is Eonwe summoning (QS HOMEV) *"all Elves and Men **from Hithlum unto the East"*?



m4r35n357 said:


> I suppose I would say: the Elves & Men in Balar, Elves & Men in Hithlum, the Elves of Ossiriand, and any Elves or Men living wild in "Greater Beleriand" (including Doriath).



Okay, but to my mind _*"from Hithlum to the East"*_, while not impossible I guess, doesn't _seem_ to include the Isle of Balar at least. And in the "other thread" *Gando* wrote (edited here for brevity):

_"Hithlum was not Beleriand. _( . . . ) _ So it seems that the "Elves of Beleriand" are still staying out of the fray. _( . . .) _ So where did Maedhros and Maglor pop up from when Fionwë / Eönwë "summoned"? We have no certain idea."_

To which you responded -- and the context of that discussion at least _*seems*_ to have already
switched to the summoning to war. Or no?



> "I refuse to accept that there were any Noldor _that_ far North (Hithlum) by that time, all their strongholds were long overrun. So making a distinction on Beleriand being separate is valid, but not relevant; _all_ the Elves were in Beleriand [wink emoji] Well, the Havens (and Ossiriand) I would say."



Back to more recent posting.



> True. We were talking about "not being summoned in the first place" rather than "disobeying the summons", though.



Right, but I wanted to bring the "disobeying factor" into the thread too, in any case.

And I did grant that I knew you knew


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 10, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> She left Valinor to seek freedom and her dreams in Middle-earth. Killing Feanor was also a dominant motive as well.
> 
> But she was wise enough to listen to Melian.
> 
> ...



Oh, I didn't mean to imply otherwise.



TheManInTheMoon said:


> After the death of Feanor and Luthien she became the most powerful Elf.
> 
> According to SoF, perhaps only Feanor was greater than Galadriel among the Elves of Aman, and only Luthien was greater than Feanor and Galadriel.
> 
> BTW, her fighting in WoW is also in line with her great desire to oppose Feanor and his sons. Because the result of the victory would've been the loss of the Silmarils for Feanorians forever; the Valar would've took the Silmarils for themselves (they really didn't see it through that Maglor and Maedhros would be so out of their minds to try to steal the Silmarils from the camp of Eonwë). And anyway, after committing so much evil, any of the Wise suspected rightly that the Feanorians are no longer clean enough to be able to touch the Silmarils.



Perhaps. Her anger seemed to be against Fëanor and not her half-cousins (though I imagine she knew of their evil deeds). Maedhros and Maglor seemed to be the most decent of the bunch but, by this point, completely unable to restrain themselves. Still, Galadriel is said to judge others with wisdom and kindness (save her half-uncle). Galadriel would have mostly been eager to see the end of Morgoth and his evil, and see the light of the Trees returned to Valinor (maybe Aulë could have made new lamps).


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 10, 2021)

ZehnWaters said:


> Her anger seemed to be against Fëanor and not her half-cousins


That's what I assumed as well. But in NoME we finally have confirmation that she "did not love the sons of Feanor".

In any case, no matter which version we are going by, she certainly utterly madly exceedingly hated sons of Feanor after they kidnapped and imprisoned the daughter of her bestfriend and they started a coup and chaos in the realm of her most beloved of all her kin and they caused his death and they destroyed her home and killed her relatives again (and AGAIN!).

She certainly hated Maglor and Maedhros the least, but she still hated them, especially after the second and third kinslayings.

The only reason she was such a good friend with Celebrimbor was because he hated his father and was an admirer of her favorite brother.

Celebrimbor must've followed his bestfriends to Hithlum. I guess it took a year or two for people of Balar to reach Hithlum. (Eonwë probably waited for them to arrive, there weren't Elves in Hithlum or nearby, and there were barely any good Edain there and nearby)

Also, I like to think that after the war, Celeborn made Galadriel follow him into the ruins of Doriath. That makes a very nice touch with Galadriel's speech in FotR where she says Celeborn would go to his ancient home even if it had become an abode of Dragons.


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 10, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> That's what I assumed as well. But in NoME we finally have confirmation that she "did not love the sons of Feanor".
> 
> In any case, no matter which version we are going by, she certainly utterly madly exceedingly hated sons of Feanor after they kidnapped and imprisoned the daughter of her bestfriend and they started a coup and chaos in the realm of her most beloved of all her kin and they caused his death and they destroyed her home and killed her relatives again (and AGAIN!).



I forgot about Celegorm and Curufin kidnapping Lúthien...and driving her beloved brother out of Nargothrond...and, yeah, Elu would have been her Great Uncle. Hm. She might have just viewed Maedhros and Maglor as exceedingly stupid and now bound by an oath that compelled them to kill (which, while pitiable, they never sought to repent from).



TheManInTheMoon said:


> She certainly hated Maglor and Maedhros the least, but she still hated them, especially after the second and third kinslayings.
> 
> The only reason she was such a good friend with Celebrimbor was because he hated his father and was an admirer of her favorite brother.



Celebrimbor: Lady Galadriel! I'm so grateful to meet you. I really admired your brother.
Galadriel: Thank you! Me too.



TheManInTheMoon said:


> Celebrimbor must've followed his bestfriends to Hithlum. I guess it took a year or two for people of Balar to reach Hithlum. (Eonwë probably waited for them to arrive, there weren't Elves in Hithlum or nearby, and there were barely any good Edain there and nearby)
> 
> Also, I like to think that after the war, Celeborn made Galadriel follow him into the ruins of Doriath. That makes a very nice touch with Galadriel's speech in FotR where she says Celeborn would go to his ancient home even if it had become an abode of Dragons.


 ❤️


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 10, 2021)

Wait, where exactly people of Balar meet with Eonwë?

Where was Eonwë when he summoned them?

I might be wrong, but I think Eonwë was in Falas at that time.


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## m4r35n357 (Sep 11, 2021)

Elthir said:


> Okay, but to my mind _*"from Hithlum to the East"*_, while not impossible I guess, doesn't _seem_ to include the Isle of Balar at least. And in the "other thread" *Gando* wrote (edited here for brevity):


If you read "Hithlum to the East" as a narrow horizontal band of uninhabited wilderness including Anfauglith, Lothlann and so on (further east?) then I cannot help you  Hence my response that you mentioned.


Elthir said:


> Right, but I wanted to bring the "disobeying factor" into the thread too, in any case.
> 
> And I did grant that I knew you knew


OK 

Anyway, Hithlum to the East _to me_ is just a fancy way of saying Middle Earth, East of a meridian through Hithlum, or East of Valinor/Aman. Balar is _most definitely_ included in "Hithlum to the East"!



TheManInTheMoon said:


> Wait, where exactly people of Balar meet with Eonwë?
> 
> Where was Eonwë when he summoned them?
> 
> I might be wrong, but I think Eonwë was in Falas at that time.


At the time of the summons he was "camped beside Sirion", according to the Later Annals of Beleriand.

[EDIT] these were originally two separate posts.


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 11, 2021)

m4r35n357 said:


> At the time of the summons, he was "camped beside Sirion", according to the Later Annals of Beleriand.


So it actually didn't take long for Edain and Noldor and some of the Sindar to reach to him. Thanks.


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## m4r35n357 (Sep 11, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> So it actually didn't take long for Edain and Noldor and some of the Sindar to reach to him. Thanks.


There are calculations in NoME that can help you with your estimate 

Part 3 IX: Elvish Journeys on Horseback


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## Elthir (Sep 11, 2021)

m4r35n357 said:


> If you read "Hithlum to the East" as a narrow horizontal band of uninhabited wilderness including Anfauglith, Lothlann and so on (further east?) then I cannot help you



Well, wink emoji noted, obviously I never said I read it like that, and even included "while not impossible I guess" (referring to the Isle of Balar) in my statement that you quoted.



m4r35n357 said:


> Anyway, Hithlum to the East _to me_ is just a fancy way of saying Middle Earth, East of a meridian through Hithlum, or East of Valinor/Aman. Balar is _most definitely_ included in "Hithlum to the East"!



Interpretation noted. We don't have Christopher Tolkien's, nor his reason for dropping the QS summoning for the constructed version. All I can says is (if obviously), there must be some reason.


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 11, 2021)

He also cut off two mentions of galadriel being the most valiant woman. There was no reason for that removal *facepalm*


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## Elthir (Sep 11, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> He also cut off two mentions of galadriel being the most valiant woman. There was no reason for that removal *facepalm*



How do you know, for certain, that JRR Tolkien did not remove these?


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## m4r35n357 (Sep 11, 2021)

Elthir said:


> Well, wink emoji noted, obviously I never said I read it like that, and even included "while not impossible I guess" (referring to the Isle of Balar) in my statement that you quoted.


Sure, that comment was meant for wider reading, this being a forum & all  Your doubt was sufficient for me to want to state my case in context.


Elthir said:


> Interpretation noted. We don't have Christopher Tolkien's, nor his reason for dropping the QS summoning for the constructed version. All I can says is (if obviously), there must be some reason.


I suppose so. I'm not here to bash CT by he way, I think he did an _incredible_ job with the time & materials available. In HoME he has also selflessly(sic) provided us with enough rope to hang him with! I do have one or two minor beefs, but they will probably emerge later . . .

I have only focused in on that statement because it was _while using this forum_ that I realized it was missing. I genuinely thought it was there until I went to check.

It is on the list again, after LotR!


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 11, 2021)

Elthir said:


> How do you know, for certain, that JRR Tolkien did not remove these?


Later Quenta Silmarillion has them. There were no omitting by JRR on them. Believe me I've looked for it in the entire texts. Not only that, but JRR made Galadriel even grander some 10 years after he wrote LQ. And then, 5 years later he made Galadriel even more grander.

Not only Chris didn't include these texts about Galadriel from outside of Silmarillion narratives, but he also reduced the already existing Galadriel texts in Silmarillion narratives.


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 11, 2021)

m4r35n357 said:


> I suppose so.


Carl H said almost all the JRR texts are published, except some linguistic and non-Arda texts.

If there was any reason why Chris did that, we would've learned it by now. Chris himself refrained to explain why he removed such a crucial text.


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## Elthir (Sep 11, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> Later Quenta Silmarillion has them. There were no omitting by JRR on them. Believe me I've looked for it in the entire texts.



HOME, however long and detailed it appears to be, includes a reduction of Christopher Tolkien's personal _History of the Silmarillion._


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 11, 2021)

That still doesn't alter the fact that Galadriel was turned from the most valiant lady of the House of Finwë into the equal of Feanor the second most valiant elf of all time.


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## Elthir (Sep 11, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> That still doesn't alter the fact that Galadriel was turned from the most valiant lady of the House of Finwë into the equal of Feanor the second most valiant elf of all time.



Well, that doesn't alter the fact that my question was, how do you know, for certain, that JRR Tolkien did not himself makes these emendations?

We don't, not for certain. Did CJRT make these changes for his own reasons? Maybe.

And _generally speaking_ at least, for example, if an author describes a given character "Belle" as being the most valiant lady of Paris -- and let's imagine she is described as such three times in the first half of a book -- perhaps said author later decides that once is enough to give the reader the intended message.

What I do know is that Christopher Tolkien has explained that HOME does not note every change ever made to every text.


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 11, 2021)

And yet Chris didnt remove 19232249842 freaking mentions of Fingon as so valiant blah blah blah. Or thousands mentions of Finrod as so sexy and hot.

Stereotypes huh?

Chris even mercilessly butchered the character of Nerdanel and turned her into the useless wife of Feanor. Don't tell me JRR himself omitted the passages about Nerdanel being super cool and awesome. These assumptions have no basis.


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## Elthir (Sep 11, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> And yet ( . . . ). Don't tell me JRR himself omitted the passages about Nerdanel being super cool and awesome. These assumptions have no basis.



You made the statement that CJRT cut out the two Galadriel descriptions. I've said that you
don't know this _for certain . . ._

. . . and I realize one could simply say this about other examples when comparing HOME to the constructed Silmarillion, but here I've only raised the question with _respect to this matter specifically_, 
and the reason is that in the constructed tale Galadriel is described at one point as: _"the only woman 
of the Noldor to stand that day tall and valiant among the contending princes, . . ."_

. . . so, again _generally speaking_, the reader of _The Silmarillion_ already knows that Galadriel is valiant,
and thus, _if _indeed JRRT himself had altered these other passages, Christopher Tolkien might not have felt the need to note them in HOME.


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## CanadianFantasyCorner (Dec 9, 2021)

What a silly question, I mean this is expecting Celeborn to have done anything lol jk, I'll see myself out.


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## Tar-Elenion (Feb 24, 2022)

> It should be noted that in the 1948 version of Galadriel where she was in Lorien at the time of War of Wrath, it is said "too late she heard the summons of Fionwë". This means the Elves from east of the Misty Mountains did not participate in WoW. They heard the summons too late. (Celeborn and Galadriel were in Beleriand in 1955-1972 versions)


I think you are missing what the Summons is here. This is the Eldar and Edain being summoned after the War of Wrath, for pardon and reward respectively, if I am not mistaken.
e.g.:
"Then Eönwë as herald of the Elder King summoned the Elves of Beleriand to depart from Middle-earth. But Maedhros and Maglor would not hearken, and they prepared, though now with weariness and loathing, to attempt in despair the fulfilment of their oath; for they would have given battle for the Silmarils, were they withheld, even against the victorious host of Valinor, even though they stood alone against all the world. And they sent a message therefore to Eönwë, bidding him yield up now those jewels which of old Fëanor their father made and Morgoth stole from him."



> From the 1973 version of Galadriel and Celeborn: "In the years after they did not join in the war against Angband, which they judged to be hopeless under the ban of the Valar and without their aid; and their counsel was to withdraw from Beleriand and to build up a power to the eastward (whence they feared that Morgoth would draw reinforcement), befriending and teaching the Dark Elves and Men of those regions. But such a policy having no hope of acceptance among the Elves of Beleriand, Galadriel and Celeborn departed over Ered Lindon before the end of the First Age"


Consistent with what had appeared in print (except the unquoted part where Celeborn is Galadriel's close cousin and a Teleri from Aman, contradicting what had appeared in print).



> In the 1955-1972 versions, the canon versions, Galadriel and Celeborn were present in Beleriand during the War of Wrath. They never departed over Ered Luin until early Second Age. They were most probably in Balar when Eonwë reached to Hithlum. There was now no reasons for G&C to not fight. Therefore, they must've definitely answered the summons and fought in this war.


"Canonically", Galadriel had fled Beleriand:
"For the Lord of the Galadhrim is accounted the wisest of the Elves of Middle-earth, and a giver of gifts beyond the power of kings. He has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him years uncounted; for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat."
Mirror of Galadriel
(Though when this passage was written Celeborn was conceived of as a Silvan Elf and ruler of Lorien, and that is the implication here. Fortunately only an implication and not a direct statement)
While your above quote seems to come from earlier variants in "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age", where Galadriel and Gil-galad were the children of Felagund.


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## TheManInTheMoon (Feb 25, 2022)

Reminder that Galadriel and Celeborn were in Beleriand until the end of the First Age in the version where Celeborn is a Sindarin Prince (and in almost all the versions where Celeborn is from Valinor).

As Christopher explains:

"There is no part of the history of Middle-earth more full of problems than the story of Galadriel and Celeborn, and it must be admitted that there are severe inconsistencies "embedded in the traditions"; or, to look at the matter from another point of view, that the role and importance of Galadriel only emerged slowly, and that her story underwent continual refashionings.

Thus, at the outset, it is certain that the earlier conception was that Galadriel went east over the mountains from Beleriand alone, before the end of the First Age, and met Celeborn in his own land of Lórien; this is explicitly stated in unpublished writing, and the same idea underlies Galadriel's words to Frodo in The Fellowship of the Ring II 7, where she says of Celeborn that "He has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him years uncounted; for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat." In all probability Celeborn was in this conception a Nandorin Elf (that is, one of the Teleri who refused to cross the Misty Mountains on the Great Journey from Cuiviénen).

On the other hand, in Appendix B to The Lord of the Rings appears a later version of the story; for it is stated there that at the beginning of the Second Age "In Lindon south of the Lune dwelt for a time Celeborn, kinsman of Thingol; his wife was Galadriel, greatest of Elven women." And in the notes to The Road Goes Ever On (1968, p. 60) it is said that Galadriel "passed over the Mountains of Eredluin with her husband Celeborn (one of the Sindar) and went to Eregion." "

So if you agree that Galadriel crossed the Mountains in First Age, then you also imply that you agree Celeborn was not a Sinda. In his nandorin version Galadriel crossed the mountains alone and met Celeborn on the other side. 

Christopher is missing a quote here. For in Appendix B of the first edition it is also stated Celeborn crossed the Mountains in early Second Age. So there's actually three later mentions of Celeborn and Galadriel crossing the Mountains in Second Age published by JRR Tolkien himself.

In the Nature of Middle-earth there are several quotes that are in line or almost in line with those later author published texts about Celeborn and Galadriel.

Such as this: "For love of Celeborn (who did not wish to leave Middle-earth), at the downfall of Angband and the ruin of Beleriand she crossed the Eryd Lindon into Eriador."

Or this: "Celebrían was born (it seems) early in the Second Age, when Galadriel refused to return to Eressëa, and passed over the Mountains. Probably SA 300."

Or this: "She probably married Celeborn soon after the overthrow of Morgoth, and when she (it appears, because of love for Celeborn, who would not leave Middle-earth yet) declined to return West to Eressëa, [fn1] they passed together over the “Mountains of Lune” into Eriador."

Or this: "Celeborn and Galadriel were not married (though betrothed) during the dreadful years of the “Battle of Wrath”,"

If they were not living in war in Beleriand then why they didn't get married? The Laws and Customs of the Eldar concerning marriage suggests you can marry if you are not living in war, but if you do you better not marry.

In People of Middle-earth, Of Dwarves and Men, it is stated Celeborn ruled Harlindon (west of the Mountains) in early Second Age, and Christopher directs us to LOTR Appendix B the revised edition where it is stated Celeborn and Galadriel lived for awhile in Lindon south of the Lune in early SA.

In Parma Eldalamberon XVII it is said: "This [the fact that the Silvian Elves spoke Sindarin] is explained by the fact that when Beleriand was ruined, and most of it was destroyed in the last war ending in the overthrow of Angband, many of the Noldor and Sindar went eastward into Eriador and beyond. (Galadriel and Celeborn were the chief examples...)"

In Unfinished Tales it is stated "For love of Celeborn, who would not leave Middle-earth (and probably with some pride of her own, for she had been one of those eager to adventure there), she did not go West at the Downfall of Melkor, but crossed Ered Lindon with Celeborn and came into Eriador."

In Unfinished Tales Christopher assumes Galadriel and Celeborn saved Elwing and gives us a note about Celeborn where it is stated he "escaped the Sack of Doriath".

The only mentions of Galadriel crossing the Mountains in First Age comes from the versions where Celeborn is not a Sinda of Doriath and they hadn't met in Beleriand.

And the only mention of Galadriel AND Celeborn crossing the Mountains in First Age comes from Treason of Isengard where Galadriel says "The lord and lady of Lothlorien are accounted wise beyond the measure of the Elves of Middle-earth, and of all who have not passed beyond the Seas. For we have dwelt here since the Mountains were reared and the Sun was young." In the notes Christopher elaborates that in this version Galadriel and Celeborn had both came from Valinor and then came to Lorien in the First Age and became its rulers. This was later discarded when Tolkien decided Celeborn is not from Valinor.

However in last years of his life Tolkien turned Celeborn again into an Elf from Valinor. For years he still went on with the conception that Galadriel and Celeborn only crossed the mountains of Ered Luin in the Second Age. But in last month of his life when he wrote Galadriel was not a rebel, but she and Celeborn came to Middle-earth with their own ship, he wrote that "Galadriel and Celeborn departed over Ered Lindon before the end of the First Age" - UT

However this version from Treason of Isengard, and this 'pure' Galadriel version who didn't join the rebellion, both contradict everything Tolkien ever published during his life.

she and Celeborn "did not join in the war against Angband, which they judged to be hopeless under the ban of the Valar and without their aid..."

Then Galadriel advised for a plan B (a plan to create a great alliance by building a power into eastwards and having the entire free people of Middle-earth as allies and befriending East people before Morgoth does), nobody truly listened to her and Celeborn. So it was natural for her wisdom to understand it would be useless for her to go to the North war. She knew it "to be hopeless under the ban of the Valar and without their aid..." - UT

But when Valar decided to send aid there was no hopelessness anymore for the Elves

"Now when first Vingilot was set to sail in the seas of heaven, it rose unlocked for, glittering and bright; and the people of Middle-earth beheld it from afar and wondered, and they took it for a sign, and called it Gil-Estel, the Star of High Hope ... Then the Elves looked up, and despaired no longer; but Morgoth was filled with doubt." - Silmarillion, chapter 24

"Of the march of the host of the Valar to the north of Middle-earth little is said in any tale; for among them went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they only learned long afterwards from their kinsfolk in Aman."

This quote does not imply that no Elves from Middle-earth participated in the War. What it do tell us is that the events of the journey, from Valinor to the battlefields in Middle-earth, were mostly unknown to the Elves of Beleriand and other regions of Middle-earth - since they were already in Middle-earth.

"But at the last Fionwë came up out of the West, and the challenge of his trumpets filled the sky; and he summoned unto him all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East; and Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of his arms...The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, the Battle Terrible, and the War of Wrath." - Lost Road

Did Galadriel answer the summons into battle? She had no reasons to do not answer the summons. The only reason she was not present in the Siege of Angband and Bragollach and Nirnaeth was because she "judged to be hopeless under the ban of the Valar and without their aid". But now that the Valar sent aid she and the other Elves "despaired no longer; but Morgoth was filled with doubt."

"Great war comes into Beleriand, and Fionwe summons all Elves, and Dwarves, and Men, and Beasts, and birds to his standards, who do not elect to fight for Morgoth." - Shaping of Middle-earth

A possibility is that Galadriel literally outright broke character and didn't answer the summons of Fionwe to ride to war against Angband, OR the more likely and logical possibility is that she acted in-character and fought against Morgoth in this war.


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## Tar-Elenion (Feb 25, 2022)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> Reminder that Galadriel and Celeborn were in Beleriand until the end of the First Age in the version where Celeborn is a Sindarin Prince (and in almost all the versions where Celeborn is from Valinor).


Reminder again, that Tolkien (via Galadriel) explicitly states that Galadriel left Beleriand before the fall of Nargothrond in LotR.
.



> So if you agree that Galadriel crossed the Mountains in First Age, then you also imply that you agree Celeborn was not a Sinda. In his nandorin version Galadriel crossed the mountains alone and met Celeborn on the other side.


I have addressed this already. LotR makes no direct statement to that effect, "author published" has him a Sinda..
So no, I imply no such thing.
Perhaps you are implying that Galadriel was deceiving Frodo, or maybe becoming senile in her dotage...





TheManInTheMoon said:


> Christopher is missing a quote here. For in Appendix B of the first edition it is also stated Celeborn crossed the Mountains in early Second Age. So there's actually three later mentions of Celeborn and Galadriel crossing the Mountains in Second Age published by JRR Tolkien himself.


And not in the Second Edition? Almost as though Tolkien thought better of that..



TheManInTheMoon said:


> In the Nature of Middle-earth there are several quotes that are in line or almost in line with those later author published texts about Celeborn and Galadriel.


I am not unaware.


TheManInTheMoon said:


> In People of Middle-earth, Of Dwarves and Men, it is stated Celeborn ruled Harlindon (west of the Mountains) in early Second Age, and Christopher directs us to LOTR Appendix B the revised edition where it is stated Celeborn and Galadriel lived for awhile in Lindon south of the Lune in early SA.


And would that be the change Tolkien made from the first edition?



TheManInTheMoon said:


> The only mentions of Galadriel crossing the Mountains in First Age comes from the versions where Celeborn is not a Sinda of Doriath and they hadn't met in Beleriand.


And, as already noted, that may be the 'implication' in LotR, but it is not stated.


TheManInTheMoon said:


> And the only mention of Galadriel AND Celeborn crossing the Mountains in First Age comes from Treason of Isengard where Galadriel says "The lord and lady of Lothlorien are accounted wise beyond the measure of the Elves of Middle-earth, and of all who have not passed beyond the Seas. For we have dwelt here since the Mountains were reared and the Sun was young." In the notes Christopher elaborates that in this version Galadriel and Celeborn had both came from Valinor and then came to Lorien in the First Age and became its rulers. This was later discarded when Tolkien decided Celeborn is not from Valinor.
> 
> However in last years of his life Tolkien turned Celeborn again into an Elf from Valinor. For years he still went on with the conception that Galadriel and Celeborn only crossed the mountains of Ered Luin in the Second Age. But in last month of his life when he wrote Galadriel was not a rebel, but she and Celeborn came to Middle-earth with their own ship, he wrote that "Galadriel and Celeborn departed over Ered Lindon before the end of the First Age" - UT
> 
> However this version from Treason of Isengard, and this 'pure' Galadriel version who didn't join the rebellion, both contradict everything Tolkien ever published during his life.


Essentially.


TheManInTheMoon said:


> she and Celeborn "did not join in the war against Angband, which they judged to be hopeless under the ban of the Valar and without their aid..."
> 
> Then Galadriel advised for a plan B (a plan to create a great alliance by building a power into eastwards and having the entire free people of Middle-earth as allies and befriending East people before Morgoth does), nobody truly listened to her and Celeborn. So it was natural for her wisdom to understand it would be useless for her to go to the North war. She knew it "to be hopeless under the ban of the Valar and without their aid..." - UT
> 
> ...


Are you saying, in other words, it does not tell us whether Elves joined or not?



TheManInTheMoon said:


> "But at the last Fionwë came up out of the West, and the challenge of his trumpets filled the sky; and he summoned unto him all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East; and Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of his arms...The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, the Battle Terrible, and the War of Wrath." - Lost Road


Yet earlier in the passage does it not say that
"Of the march of the host of Fionwe to the North little is
said in any tale; for in his armies went none of those Elves who had
dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the
histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these
things they learned long afterward from their kinsfolk, the Lightelves
of Valinor."



TheManInTheMoon said:


> Did Galadriel answer the summons into battle? She had no reasons to do not answer the summons. The only reason she was not present in the Siege of Angband and Bragollach and Nirnaeth was because she "judged to be hopeless under the ban of the Valar and without their aid". But now that the Valar sent aid she and the other Elves "despaired no longer; but Morgoth was filled with doubt."
> 
> "Great war comes into Beleriand, and Fionwe summons all Elves, and Dwarves, and Men, and Beasts, and birds to his standards, who do not elect to fight for Morgoth." - Shaping of Middle-earth


The later passage in Lost Road seems more relevant.



TheManInTheMoon said:


> A possibility is that Galadriel literally outright broke character and didn't answer the summons of Fionwe to ride to war against Angband, OR the more likely and logical possibility is that she acted in-character and fought against Morgoth in this war.


Or, Galadriel and Celeborn had not been invented yet, and thus are not particularly relevant to those passages. in light of other "author published" writings which have her leaving Beleriand before the fall of Nargothrond, as well as writings that note only one physical combat (defending her mother's kin at the First Kinslaying) she was involved in.
And in keeping with Tolkien's statement that she did not participate in the Wars in Beleriand (which I think you helpfully quoted). Unlike, say, Elrond who did participate.
Did Galadriel break character, or is she breaking the character you are inventing for her?

It seems Tolkien's Galadriel is more in keeping with his statement found in Laws and Customs of the Eldar:
"For instance, the arts of healing, and all that touches on the care of the body, are among all the Eldar most practised by the nissi; whereas it was the elven-men who bore arms at need. And the Eldar deemed that the dealing of death, even when lawful or under necessity, diminished the power of healing, and that the virtue of the nissi in this matter was due rather to their abstaining from hunting or war than to any special power that went with their womanhood. Indeed in dire straits or desperate defence, the nissi fought valiantly, and there was less difference in strength and speed between elven-men and elven-women that had not borne child than is seen among mortals."
MRaOW, Laws and Customs of the Eldar

Lets work on the travels conundrum:
Galadriel:
First Age
Valinor>Beleriand (Doriath and Nargothrond)(S, etc.)>Eriador (w/ Celeborn) (UT, in keeping with LotR)
Second Age:
>Lindon (refuses/is not pardoned) (RGEO)> Harlindon (w/Celeborn) (LotR)>Nenuial (has Celebrian) (UT, NoMe)>Eregion (RGEO (possibly with another interlude in Harlindon), UT, NoMe)>Lorien (before War of Elves and Sauron, w/Celebrian, Celeborn remains behind)>Imladris (after War of Elves and Sauron, w/Celebrian (Elrond falls in love), meets back up w/Celeborn) (UT)>Lorien(?) (w/Celeborn and presumably Celebrian)(UT)>Belfalas (sea longing, w/Celeborn and Celebrian)(UT)>Lorien(?)(before Last Alliance, presumably at some point after Numenoreans settle in Belfalas) (UT)>Imladris and/or Lindon (during Last Alliance).


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## Elthir (Feb 25, 2022)

*Tar-Elenion*!!!

Back! After how many Sun Years?

Huzzah 💥


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## Tar-Elenion (Feb 26, 2022)

An Age at least, it seems, and likely to fade away again...
(I only found this because someone elsewhere was providing quotes from books (without citation) she obviously had not read, so I searched a couple of phrases and it became apparent she was lifting it from ManInTheMoons work here).


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## Olorgando (Feb 26, 2022)

Tar-Elenion said:


> ... and it became apparent she was lifting it from ManInTheMoons work here).


Oh dear ...


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## TheManInTheMoon (Mar 7, 2022)

Some times it is apparent it is pointless to argue with people who try to ignore everything you quote.

The only person here who really knows his Galadriel is Either, and me.

"Galadriel and Celeborn did not have any significant role in the general course of events in the War of the Jewels. It is said that even before the Fall of Nargothrond (F.A. 495), she passed over the mountains to [5] Eriador, far from the turmoil of the last years of the First Age." - TG

This passage in TG is sourced to The Lord of the Rings, The Fellowship of the Ring, "The Mirror of Galadriel". But the problem is, in FotR Celeborn wasn't even ever present in Beleriand. Celeborn was not a Prince of Doriath according to FotR, he had never even been into Doriath, and Galadriel had never met him there. I'd let Tolkien's son himself explain this radically different versions:

"There is no part of the history of Middle-earth more full of problems than the story of Galadriel and Celeborn, and it must be admitted that there are severe inconsistencies "embedded in the traditions"; or, to look at the matter from another point of view, that the role and importance of Galadriel only emerged slowly, and that her story underwent continual refashionings.

Thus, at the outset, it is certain that the earlier conception was that Galadriel went east over the mountains from Beleriand alone, before the end of the First Age, and met Celeborn in his own land of Lórien; this is explicitly stated in unpublished writing, and the same idea underlies Galadriel's words to Frodo in The Fellowship of the Ring II 7, where she says of Celeborn that "He has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him years uncounted; for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat."
In all probability Celeborn was in this conception a Nandorin Elf (that is, one of the Teleri who refused to cross the Misty Mountains on the Great Journey from Cuiviénen).

On the other hand, in Appendix B to The Lord of the Rings appears a later version of the story; for it is stated there that at the beginning of the Second Age "In Lindon south of the Lune dwelt for a time Celeborn, kinsman of Thingol; his wife was Galadriel, greatest of Elven women." And in the notes to The Road Goes Ever On (1968, p. 60) it is said that Galadriel "passed over the Mountains of Eredluin with her husband Celeborn (one of the Sindar) and went to Eregion." "

So in the versions where Celeborn is a Prince of the Sindar of Doriath Galadriel was actually in Beleriand until the end of it, meaning she had gone through the Ruin of Doriath and the rescue of Elwing with the Silmaril, defending Elwing in the Third Kinslaying, the War of Wrath and the final overthrown of Morgoth in this war. It can be said Tolkien contradicted himself, but not necessarily, I think it's possible to reconcile Galadriel's statement in FotR with Appendix and RGEO (which were published by Tolkien himself) and other writings of Tolkien (which were published by his scholars). Firstly, Galadriel doesn't specify which mountains she crossed, therefore the mountains can refer to any mountains in Aman and North West of Middle-earth, and secondly, Galadriel is oversimplifying the timeline by saying 'ere the fall of Nargothrond', this event of the Fall of Nargothrond is a definite point that even the slightly educated people (such as Pippin) in the lore of the Elder Days can understand that it's a long long time ago. In other word, ere the Fall of Nargothrond is a term used in-universe by some people to refer to a long long time ago especially when talking to people who are not masters of lore of the First Age.

"After the War of Wrath and the overthrow of Morgoth, she chose to remain with Celeborn, who would not leave Middle-earth, but also because she was one of those eager to explore Middle-earth from the beginning.[13] " - TG

I checked their source and saw it's again from an early version. One of Tolkien scholars dated Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn draft to around late 1950s, and although Tolkien's son himself didn't date this writing he agreed that it's from a early years and too many things in this draft were discarded. Although the passage from TG is not strictly inaccurate, but it's missing to mention her chief and dominant reason of rejecting the pardon of the Valar in later versions is always because of her pride. This is too many times stated in later writings, for instance in Shibboleth it's stated: "**Pride still moved her when, at the end of the Elder Days after the final overthrow of Morgoth, she refused the pardon of the Valar for all who had fought against him, and remained in Middle-earth**."

"Celeborn ruled over the fiefdom of Harlindon .. Eventually, the couple crossed into Eriador with many Noldor in their following. Together with Sindar and Green-elves, they dwelt in the country about Lake Nenuial" - TG

TG is literally contradicting themselves, again. Celeborn ruling Harlindon is from the version where he was a Sinda who had gone through the War of the Jewels until the end of it, with his fiancee Galadriel, and after Beleriand sank into the Sea they setlled in Lindon/Harlindon. TG however is confusing and merging two wholly different versions together.

TG says by the year 300 SA Galadriel and Celeborn lived at Lake Nenuial. This is just from a draft and abandoned notes dated to later years of 1950s. This has no basis in what Tolkien himself published.

In LotR Appendix (revised edition) he published: In Second Age " In Lindon south of the Lune dwelt for a time Celeborn, kinsman of Thingol; his wife was Galadriel.... Later some of the Noldor went to Eregion, upon the west of the Misty Mountains .... 750 Eregion founded by the Noldor." And in the subsequent year Tolkien published in the Notes to Road Goes Ever On: "She passed over the Mountains of Ered Luin with her husband Celeborn (one of the Sindar) and went to Eregion."

Meaning, Galadriel and Celeborn were there ruling Harlindon until 750 SA when they left and went to Eregion.

"They departed [from the Lake] for Eregion and arrived there by S.A. 750.[13][14] It was ruled by Celebrimbor, grandson of Fëanor and distant cousin of Galadriel." - TG

This kinda makes it look like they arrived to Eregion when it was already established, and TG is missing to mention Galadriel and Celeborn had a chief part in establishing Eregion, alongside their bestfriend Celebrimbor. Also TG is missing to point out almost the entire narrative of Galadriel in Eregion. There's almost no mention of her narrative with Dwarves, and her part against Sauron In Disguise.

"It was only sometime between S.A. 1350 and 1400 did she cross the Hithaeglir through Khazad-dûm and relocated to there with Celebrían becoming great among the Wood-elves.[13]" - TG

Again, discarded idea from Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn (1959). In 1960s writings, published in Unfinished Tales, Parma Eldalamberon 17, and Nature of Middle-earth, it is stated too many times: “Galadriel and Celeborn, and their followers, who after the destruction of Eregion [in the year 1697] passed through Moria” “Galadriel and Celeborn only retreated thither [to Lorien] after the downfall of Eregion." “... "domination" of Galadriel and Celeborn ..." In Lorien. "...after the Fall of Eregion... They had passed through Moria with considerable following of Noldorin Exiles and dwelt for many years in Lorien” and as Christopher elaborates in a writing from much the same time it is implied "after Eregion's fall Celeborn led this migration into Lorien while Galadriel joined Gil-Galad in Lindon."

Galadriel was a total badass in the entire narrative of Forging of the Rings and the War of the Elves and Sauron, even in the earlier version where she wasn't personally in the battlefield, yet TG has selected to not mention any of it.

"By the power of Nenya, the realm of Lórinand was strengthened and made beautiful." - TG

Why is this passage in Second Age timeline? Christopher Tolkien points out Galadriel using Nenya in Second Age was a slip in a hasty draft, this slip contradicted both the draft itself and the already established lore, which will be explained further more below.

"After the War of the Elves and Sauron ended, she passed again through Moria with Celebrían and came to Imladris, seeking Celeborn.[13] There she found him, and there they dwelt together for a long time.[13]" - TG

Never happened in the revised version. Celeborn had not retreated to Rivendell after the Fall of Eregion; as quoted above he had retreated to Lorien.

"But at some later time, Galadriel and Celeborn departed from Imladris and went to the little-inhabited lands between the mouth of the Gwathló and Ethir Anduin. There they dwelt in Belfalas, at the place that was afterwards called Dol Amroth" - TG

Galadriel never lived in Dol Amroth in "canon"

First let's see why she decided to live in Dol Amroth in the earlier version:

She used her Ring in the Second Age and "its power upon her was great also and unforeseen, for it increased her latent desire for the Sea and return into the West, so her joy in Middle-earth was diminished"

"the sea longing grew so strong in her that she ..." committed Lorinand to Amroth and determined " to leave Lorinand and to dwell near the sea." she "dwelt in Belfalas .... there Amroth their son at times visited them ... it was not until far on in the Third Age, when Amroth was lost and Lorinand was in peril, that Galadriel returned there"

In the note against these passages Christopher explains: "Galadriel cannot have made use of the powers of Nenya until a much later time, after the loss of the Ruling Ring; but it must be admitted that the text does not at at all suggest this (although she is said just above to have advised Celebrimbor that the Elven Rings should never be used)"

If you have read the Silmarllion and LOTR and its Appendix you see the same idea that Christopher is talking about is explained: Elves would have been enslaved if they had used their Rings as long as Sauron possessed the One. How come Galadriel breaks reality by heavily using Nenya in SA? Because... as Chris explained this version was written "very hastily".

If Galadriel had never used Nenya in SA, which she did not, because she could not, then she never grew to become so sick and long for the Sea so badly to go and live near the Sea for 5000 years.

There is a lot of discarded writings in the version which TG is talking about. For example, in later writings Galadriel actually returned to Lorien three times before she became its ruler in the Third Age. 

Anyway, as Chris says: "it is not much clear in the late accounts where Galadriel and Celeborn passed the long years of the Second Age after the defeat of Sauron in Eriador; there are at any rate no further mentions of their agelong sojourn in Belfalas" and that for a very good reason, which me and Chris explained.

+ Tolkien wrote Galadriel and Celeborn did not partake in the War against Angband in the context of when Valar were not sending aid. And this is from the version where Galadriel and Celeborn were not present in the Battle of the Lammoth. In the Shibboletb of Feanor Galadriel goes through the Battle of the Lammoth. And we know for a fact valiant women fought in such times of crisis.

When Valar sent aid they had no reasons anymore to not take part in the War of Wrath. It doesn't matter if they were in Beleriand or Eriador. As we know from the Lost Road that many Elves of Eriador answered the summoms of Fionwe to battle. It doesn't matter if Galadriel fought against Angband as a warrior or as a healer. She must've either answered the summons or broke character. We know from the Lost Road that even women were present in the War of Wrath. All Edain fought for Fionwe and the entire Tirion participated in War of Wrath.


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## Elassar (Jun 7, 2022)

Galadriel and celeborn dwelt in doriath until the lateral fell out of favour with the Queen for lying to her about the kinslaying of aliquonde


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## Child of Varda (Yesterday at 9:55 AM)

Personally, I think it makes sense that Galadriel judged defeating Morgoth was impossible without the Valar. I know that comes in a text where Celeborn is a Telerin Elf and we probably would think that was canon if Tolkien had expounded upon it more. Still, since the other part does not contradict established lore, shouldn't it be considered final intent?


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## Ent (Yesterday at 3:04 PM)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> Some times it is apparent it is pointless to argue with people who try to ignore everything you quote.


Welcome to my world. I might change your statement above in just one small way, truncating it to: "It is pointless to argue." 

conversation and discussion is good. but the fact is no amount of presentation of 'facts' will overcome the opinions of many. 
It is what I have come to call The Religion of Opinion. And like most "religions", those who hold to it are intractable, in spite of any evidence given.

It is a rare bird indeed... (or elf, or tree, or dwarf, or human...or even Valar or Maiar)... who actually determines to: 1) - receive 2) - listen 3) - ponder 4) - research further 5) - consider again 6) - reform a perspective, and 7) - change. 

Predominantly what we have is: 1) - receive 2) - compare to preference 3) - accept if agreement 4) - reject if disagreement. And there the story ends... intractability is already set in, and we need to grasp we are dealing with an entity in which the irresistible force and the unmoveable object have intentionally and unbreakably blended together to insure an unassailable position--yes, regardless of the 'facts'. 

The Religion of Opinion has its doctrinal statement and membership criteria just like any other religion. 
I shall be happy to present them upon request. (They are currently in revision but will be available soon.)

NOTE: this post will shortly be assailed by some who disagree with it: in spite of the facts.


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