# Malbeth The Seer



## Ancalagon (Jul 15, 2002)

> Thus spoke Malbeth the Seer, in the days of Arvedui, last king at Fornost,' said Aragorn:
> 
> Over the land there lies a long shadow,
> westward reaching wings of darkness.
> ...



There is very little reference throughout Tolkiens work to Seers; either about them or how they were able to tell of future happenings or even who inspired their visions.

Though there are only very few quotes to others who possessed this ability, none are ever elaborated upon. 



> It is told that a seer and harp-player of Brethil named Glirhuin made a song, saying that the Stone of the Hapless should not be defiled by Morgoth nor ever thrown down, not though the sea should drown all the land; as after indeed befell, and still Tol Morwen stands alone in the water beyond the new coasts that were made in the days of the wrath of the Valar.



Strangely enough, both these Seers relate their pronunciations in relation to Stones; Erech and Hapless. 

The only other reference I can find to one who hold this abilty, though not actually known as a Seer is Tar-Palantir;


> But when Inziladûn acceded to the sceptre, he took again a title in the Elven-tongue as of old, calling himself Tar-Palantir, for he was far-sighted both in eye and in mind, and even those that hated him feared his words as those of a true-seer.



Of whom do these Seers attain this ability? In particular, why is it only among the race of Men that this ability seems to manifest itself? The only others who are gifted in this skill are Maiar, even those are very select. Why do Elves not possess this vision when they obviously have great skills of mind, both in communication and in reading of the Minds of Men; remember Finrods ability to read the minds of Men when he first met them! 

This strikes me as something that is rather unique to the Race of Men, yet essential for one reason; Men do not fall under the realm of Mandos in the same way Elves do, therefore this skill is almost like a snapshot of the mind of Iluvatar or possibly Manwe, in order to give them some sense of identification with positive outcomes in their future. 

As always, this is my interpretation and always available for assasination


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## Mormegil (Jul 15, 2002)

I would like to put foreward Glorfindel as an Elven seer, or at least something of the sort.

"Earnur now rode back, but Glorfindel' looking into the gathering dark, said: "Do not persue him! He will not return to this land. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall." These words many remembered; but Earnur was angry, desiring only to be revenged for his disgrace." -'Return of the King, Appendix A'

I don't know what that does to uyour theory Anc, But it seems to me that Glorfindel is not just hazarding a guess at what might happen in the future.

As for how the seers received their abilities, I don't know. But I think it might be the Valar granting visions to people, to help good vs evil.


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## Maedhros (Jul 15, 2002)

Ok, I will go way backwards. I don't have the books with me so I can't give any quotes.
It is said that the Valar could see in the future because they had taken part in the making of the Music but they couldn't be 100% sure of their "visions" because they were not involved in the making of the third theme of the Music.
In regard to the Seers, i would say that many characters had "feelings" that could be interpreted as "visions".
Ex:
When Gandalf tells Frodo that he thinks that Gollum would had a part to take in the end of the Destruction of the Ring. Althought Gandalf was a Maia.


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## Ancalagon (Jul 15, 2002)

The specifics however are not whther someone such as an Elf might have a feeling, impart words of wisdom or make a statement regarding someones future based upon his insight of the character of whom he refers. This is in relation to the specific clarity that Men, who are gifted with predictions can actually relate to a point in the future that has yet to occur. 

Now, even the Mirror of Galadriel has some ability to potentially show the future, though this is not a definitive perspective, only a possibility. Malbeth makes an actual prediction, a specific prediction about a moment in time that will obviously come to pass. In all Tolkiens work, this is exclusively imparted to Men (excluding The Valar, in particular Mandos) over Elves. Why?

_If someone finds a quote from an Elven source then this theory is totally debunked )_

Another point; I haven't looked into whether Dwarves had premonitions or visions though I have a feeling they have somewhere along the line.


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## Rúmil (Jul 16, 2002)

There are many passages in the Sil were it is said about Elves: "a foresight came on him as he spoke..." I'm guessing as Elbves had more "power of mind" than mortals they could have glimpses at what may happen in the future. Some mortals have great power of mind also (e.g. Aragorn or Frodo) and they could also have this ablility... just a guess.


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## Cian (Jul 16, 2002)

Círdan, for example, was said: 



> ... to have seen further and deeper into the future than anyone else in Middle-earth. This does not include the Istari, but must include even Elrond, Galadriel, and Celeborn." from _Círdan_ TPOME



And compare what is said of him in Appendix B RotK.


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## Ancalagon (Jul 16, 2002)

What constitutes a visionary? Is it one who we can say spoke with Gandalf and knew intinctively that this Man would go on to become great among both Men and Elves? I agree that Cirdan was indeed a visionary, but not in the sense that Malbeth The Seer could be construed, for he essentially was given a message that was passed through generations until such a time as it proved a reality. Insight, forethought, instictiveness and visionary are separate from prophecy. Cirdan was not a prophet but all the prior I have described. 

However, one must also question then whether the words of a Seer are a self-fulfilling prophecy by the fact that Elrond reminds Aragorn of his options, or whether they are an absolute certainty due to the fact that fate and destiny are always played out long in advance? This tends to question the integrity of 'free will'. Then again, Aragorn could have refused to call upon the Oathbreakers at Erech and where would we be then?

_Of course Cian, I know you will come back with a big stick and beat me with these words_


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## Rúmil (Jul 16, 2002)

Well you know, Ancalagon, that's always the problem with prophecies...


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## Ancalagon (Jul 16, 2002)

Well Rúmil, you have proved yourself a prophetic visionary in my eyes now


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## aragil (Jul 16, 2002)

Hey, wait a minute- Mormegil's quote by Glorfindel was widely held as a prophecy (at least the Witch-King put a lot of faith in it). What makes it substantially different from Malbeth's pronouncement (other than the fact that Glory didn't bother to rhyme)?

Another thing- what does 'Malbeth' mean. I seem to recall 'beth' or 'peth' meaning something like 'word', but what's the ol' 'Mal' part?


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## Cian (Jul 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by aragil _
> ... Another thing- what does 'Malbeth' mean. I seem to recall 'beth' or 'peth' meaning something like 'word', but what's the ol' 'Mal' part?



_-beth_ is maybe here the lenited form of S. _peth_ "word" (lenition can indeed occur in composition-names in this position). Comparing Adûnaic _izindu-bêth_ "true-sayer, prophet" it seems a possible assumption for this element in a Seers name.

As for an initial element, I dunno 

Forced to guess (ack) "Gold-word" maybe, which, if incorrect seems at least arguable for someone whose word(s) were highly esteemed. Due to his gift of expression or eloquence, St. John was given a title Chrysostom or Golden-mouthed.

I've learned it can be dangerous to try and beat a Dragon with its own words


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## Rúmil (Jul 16, 2002)

Could it be a nasalisation of the stem BAL occuring in Vala? Balbeth > Malbeth, labial dissimilation. The name would mean "power-worded".


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## Mormegil (Jul 16, 2002)

I have done some more reading and found a quote regarding Elrond;

"Thus Narsil came in due time to the hand of Valandil, Isildur's heir, in Imladris; but the blade was broken and its light was extinguished, and it was not forged anew. And Master Elrond foretold that this would not be done until the Ruling Ring should be found again and Sauron should return; but the hope of Elves and Men was that these things might never come to pass." -'The Silmarillion, Of The Rings Of Power'

It seems as though Elrond also had some views of the future. Obviously the Elven predictions are a lot more general than Malbeth's, but I think Elves had some seer-like abilities.


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## aragil (Jul 16, 2002)

Mormegil- I like your Glorfindel quote better than the Elrond one. The problem with Elrond is always that he is only _half_-elven.


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## Ancalagon (Jul 16, 2002)

Aragil, you wise one that you are; I honestly didn't even consider that when I read Mormegils post. You get a gold star*


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## aragil (Jul 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ancalagon _
> *You get a gold star* *



Malgil if I'm to believe Cian (which I usually do). Still- it certainly seems to me that Glorfindel's prophecy was as potent as Malbeth's. No getting off the hook just for distributing stars!


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## Mormegil (Jul 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by aragil _
> *The problem with Elrond is always that he is only half-elven. *



Not so. Somewhere along the line Elrond forgot that he is in fact 9/16 Elven, and not 'half' Elven. So he is more 'Elf' than anything else.
Also Elrond chose to become an Elf, so I would say that he became completely Elvish.


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## Ancalagon (Jul 16, 2002)

Yoink* Gold Star revoked for snottiness

Glorfindel The Seer, Elrond The Seer? I don't recall them actually being referred to in this way. The fact also remains that Malbeth had no idea who he was speaking about when he uttered his prophecy, whereas both Glorfindel and Elrond had the luxury of knowing the characters about whom they were imparting words of wisdom. This gives them the unfair advantage of being able to judge from the person or artefact, because of the conditions, climate and their knowledge of either their enemy or their friends that Malbeth never had.

Malbeth was a true Seer, Glorfindel and Elrond were wise visionary's, but just not in the same league.


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## aragil (Jul 16, 2002)

Mormegil- muddied genetics are the problem here, not the extent of muddiness. Not only did Elrond have human-ish blood, he also had Melian blood. If this thread was like the Clairavoyance Olympics, then Elrond would be tossed for having trace amounts of illegal bloodline.
An interesting topic seen in some very old threads (don't mean to steal Anc's thread here)- did Elrond choose to be an Elf, or to be an immortal Half-Elf? I don't think his choice was in what genetics he could choose, but in what his ultimate fate would be. My proof- in _Many Meetings_ Elrond is described as being mighty among both Elves and Men.

Anc- Well, if you're going to take my star back, then I'm glad you used a Simpsons expression to do it.
By taking away familiarity with the subject matter, I think you're tilting the playing field. My next quote was going to be something about Feanor and his thoughts on the Silmarils, but I see that's right out now. Hmm, going to be very hard to find an Elf speculating on something s/he knows nothing about.


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## Tar-Elenion (Jul 16, 2002)

Elrond was a Peredhel who chose to be accounted among the Elves in fate.


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## Ancalagon (Jul 16, 2002)

Aragil, I am certainly not 'moving the goalposts' as I have and will again concede the fact that Elves are skilled visionary's. However, the matter of a Seer actually making a prophecy is somewhat different because they have absolutely no affliation with the subject.


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## Ancalagon (Jul 16, 2002)

That thread you to which you were referring would be this one, I think; http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3423


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## Cian (Jul 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by aragil _
> Malgil if I'm to believe Cian (which I usually do). Still- it certainly seems to me that Glorfindel's prophecy was as potent as Malbeth's. No getting off the hook just for distributing stars!



(heheh) Hey thanks for the v.o. confidence aragil! The element _mal-_ ~ in the Silmarillion index in _Malduin,_ from the Index Of Names: _"... probably means "Yellow River" _ but further is said to mean "gold" in _Malduin, Malinalda, Mallorn ..._

... that said, the part you may want to "leave at the door" is whether this element actually appears in _Malbeth_  I'll stress "I dunno" ~ and Rúmil's suggestion makes me want to drop a lure in a lake where I know David Salo sometimes swims, but (so far) I have resisted this impulse. Cheers



> "Among the Noldor, he was known as Maltatir i Alya;
> The Sindar called him Malathir Galw;
> To the men of Rohan he was Goldweard sa Rica;
> And in Dale they called him Gullvardr inn Riki.
> ...


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## Rúmil (Jul 17, 2002)

Being half-elven hardly matters; it might mean he grew a beard and had broader build, but as he chose to be counted among the Elves, all powers of the Elves were granted to him.


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## aragil (Jul 18, 2002)

Rúmil- being half-elven means a lot of things. If 'Seeing' were strictly a human trait, then Elrond being descended from several human bloodlines would disqualify him from being the lone example of an elven seer. That is to say nothing of his descent from Melian, who was not only a Maia, but a remarkably far-sighted one at that. Whether or not Elrond chose to be counted with the immortal Elves or the mortal Men would not necessarily effect his status as a seer, methinks (assuming again that 'seeing' is a non-elven trait).

Returning to Malbeth, I have another idea:


> 'Arvedui was indeed the last king, as his name signifies. It is said that this name was given to him at his birth by Malbeth the Seer, who said to his father: "_Arvedui_ you shall call him, for he will be the last in Arthedain. Though a choice will come to the Dunedain, and if they take the one that seems less hopeful, then your son will change his name and become king of a great realm. If not, then much sorrow and many lives of men shall pass, until the Dunedain arise and are united again."


Well, first off, it appears that even the pre-cogs aren't 100% (yes I've finally seen Minority Report), as Arvedui's destiny is unclear even to Malbeth. But, what I'd like to draw attention to is Malbeth's relation to Araphant (father of Arvedui). First off, Malbeth _the Seer_ could be just a nod to the fact that he was far-sighted, or it _could_ be a position in the Northern Court, similar to Pelendur the Steward in Gondor. Now, turning to UT, _The Palantiri_:


> These Stones were an inalienable gift to Elendil and his heirs, to whom alone they belonged by right; but this does not mean that they could be used lawfully by anyone authorized by either the "Heir of Anarion" or the "Heir of Isildur," that is, a lawful King of Gondor or Arnor. *Actually they must normally have been used by such deputies*. Each Stone had its own warden, one of whos duties was to "survey the Stone" at regular intervals, or when commanded, or in times of need. Other persons also were appointed to visit the Stones, and ministers of the Crown concerned with "intelligence" made regular and special inspections of them, reporting the information so gained to the King and Council, or to the King privately, as the matter demanded. In Gondor latterly, as the office of Steward rose in importance and became hereditary, providing as it were a permanent "understudy" to the King, and an immediate viceroy at need, the command and use of the Stones seems mainly to have been in the hands of the Stewards, and the traditions concerning thier nature and use to have been guarded and transmitted in their House.


Perhaps 'the Seer' was the title of the minister in the North who oversaw the stones, and who was responsibe for reporting to the King any important information. This could account for the circumstances under which Malbeth informed Araphant that his son would be Arvedui, the last King of Arthedain. Even if this is the case, I'd have to concede that Malbeth would be a particularly gifted 'minister of seeing', being the only one mentioned by name in the tales. This of course puts us right back at the beginning of the question- where does he get his native ability which separates him from the crowd?


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## Rúmil (Jul 18, 2002)

That's a very interesty therory, aragil. I think I will go with it. And as for the question about where he gets his native ability from.. well, some people are gifted for poetry, others for maths, others for football... and some, apparently, for minding Palantíri  

PS: I was not saying that Elrond's seeing-powers came from his mortal half, on the contrary. I was suggesting that that may be a trait of his Noldo-prince and Maia descent.


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## aragil (Jul 18, 2002)

re ps- I agree with you (shh, don't tell Anc), but first we have to find some good examples of Noldo fortune-telling by unsullied fellers. Alas, even old Glory-pants might not be a perfect Noldo, as he has that blasted blonde hair.


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## Rúmil (Jul 18, 2002)

*lowers his woice to a whisper* don't tell anyone but... I think it's a dye!


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## Ancalagon (Jul 18, 2002)

> PS: I was not saying that Elrond's seeing-powers came from his mortal half, on the contrary. I was suggesting that that may be a trait of his Noldo-prince and Maia descent.



He really is a mongrel, isn't he!

Aragil, I have to say I am intrigued by your thoughts on this and fully intend to research the theory later on. Meantime, you would do well to research the abilities of the Palantirs in relation to how they portray scenes. They are unlike the Mirror of Galadriel in their uses and effect. Therefore, a Seer would have visions thrust upon him at unspecified times or through meditation or some other medium. The Stones on the other hand would need to be used by much more conservative, level-headed individuals who were unlikely to go off in a trance at the drop of a hat! The stones are more of a peer to peer communication device or as a remote viewing tool.


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## aragil (Jul 18, 2002)

Anc- Gandalf's confidence gives me faith. He at least gives the impression that were he to wrest control of the Orthanc stone away from Sauron, he might be able to train the stone over time and distance to actually watch Feanor. If he could do this, then imagine what a 'rightful' user of the stones could do! Wild speculation here- but if 'the Seer' was a minister-level position in the court of Arnor, they would have a Dunedain's lifespan of training in being able to look through time and space for events that would concern the King. Now if Malbeth was such a minister, and he had greater native ability in this sort of thing than his predecessors, then he might be able to make predictions such as 'Arvedui will be the last king of Arthedain', and 'The one who brings balance to the Force will seek the Path of the Dead'.


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