# Melian, Lúthien and 'Aþâraphelûn Dušamanûðân'...



## Úlairi (Jan 24, 2004)

After a long discussion with Eriol some time ago over the free will of the creatures of Arda, something that came up in the discussion was the 'raiment of the Valar', and that they did not clothe themselves with physical matter, and the only Ainur that ever did so was Melkor, the Úmaiar (inclusive of Sauron) and the Istari. However, Tulkas is mentioned having 'ruddy flesh' and Aulë makes the Dwarves with his 'hands', and most of the Valar (save Tulkas and Melkor) sub-create by using the physical matter of Arda (_erma_), which is fundamentally marred by the power of Melkor, hence the earth itself becoming _Morgoth's Ring_. This is also the cause of why the Elves do not experience perfect unison with their _hröar_ and _fëar_.



> _HoME X: Morgoth's Ring: Ainulindalë: The Music of the Ainur and the coming of the Valar_
> *"§25 But the Valar now took to themselves shape and form and because they were drawn thither by love for the Children of Ilúvatar, for whom they hoped, they took shape after that manner which they had beheld in the Vision of Ilúvatar; save only in majesty and splendour, for they are mighty and holy. Moreover their shape comes of their knowledge and desire of the visible World, rather than the World itself, and they need it not, save only as we use raiment, and yet we may be naked and suffer no loss of our being."*



Now, for the Valar to be fundamentally pure of spirit and mind, they therefore have no _hröa_ themselves, as that would therefore require the physical constituets of Arda for that to occur, and hence suffer some form of loss to their inherent being, which Melkor would have undoubtedly have used to his advantage. Now, let us presume that what I have mentioned of the 'physical aspects' of te Valar in the texts is void, as Tolkien (even though contradicting himself, but, leaves some back doors ) says that they do not use the _erma_ of Arda for their hue. They still however, possess power over that _erma_. It is said that the Valar can actually undo the power of Melkor in the constituents of Arda (on a small scale), hence, explains why Aman is 'blessed' in the sense that it does not contain that 'Melkor-ingredient'. Now, I have a couple of problems, as you have undoubtedly guessed from the title. I will start with good ol' Elwë, Melian and Lúthien. I am also shocked from what I've read from the texts of Tolkien that this is something that he never really considered.



> _The Silmarillion: Chapter X: Of the Sindar_
> *"And at the end of the first age of the Chaining of Melkor, when all the Earth had peace and the glory of Valinor was at its noon, there came into the world Lúthien, the only child of Thingol and Melian. Though Middle-earth lay for the most part in the Sleep of Yavanna, in Beleriand under the power of Melian there was life and joy, and the bright stars shone as silver fires; and there in the forest of Neldoreth Lúthien was born, and the white flowers of niphredil came forth to greet her as stars from the earth.*



All that's mentioned of the birth of Lúthien. Undoubtedly you can now see where I'm going. Melian would have to be incarnate to give birth to Lúthien. She would therefore require the permission of the Valar, or would rebel against what seems to be a fundamental 'dogma' of the Ainurin existence. No permission is mentioned, although it may exist. However, Melian is also mentioned as being the wisest of all, even though Tolkien says that Olórin was the wisest of the Maiar . How is this then possible being incarnate? The Istari themselves were definitely 'tainted' by 'Arda Marred'. It also mentions that she 'gave power' to Elu Thingol, which seems to be an affinity of the dark. Whenever a divine being in Tolkien's works disperses 'inherent power', it is always considered an evil action. The Valar did not lose or give any 'inherent power' to Arda in the manner of their sub-creation (as it was kindled with the Flame Imperishable), Melkor did because it was the perversion of it to the dark. What dost thou say to this??? Is this... acceptable??? Is Lúthien in someway greater than the other children of Ilúvatar? I know that her beauty was indeed the greatest, what are the other implications? It mentions that her 'raiment is blue' and that she 'vanished'. Is she a Maia?


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## Confusticated (Jan 25, 2004)

In the essay _Osanwe-Kenta_ (published in Vinyar Tengwar 39) Pengolodh says:


> We do not know the _axani_ (laws, rules, as primarily proceeding from Eru) that were laid down upon the Valar with particular reference to their state, but it seems clear that there was no axan against these things. Nonetheless it appears to be an _axan_, or maybe necessary consequence, that if they are done, then the spirit must dwell in the body that it used, and be under the same necessities as the Incarnate. The only case that is known in the histories of the Eldar is that of Melian who became the spouse of King Elu-thingol. This certainly was not evil or against the will of Eru, and though it led to sorrow, both Elves and Men were enriched.



And you may also find this interesting:


> The things that are most binding are those that in the Incarnate have to do with the life of the _hroa_ itself, its sustenance and its propagation. Thus eating and drinking are binding, but not the delight in beauty of sound or form. Most binding is begetting or conceiving.


Pengolodh said that regarding the incarnation of the Ainur.

I see no reason Luthiens 'raiment' were not regular incarnate's clothing.

Also: Where does Tolkien say the Valar do not use the matter of Arda when they take shape?

AND: Where is the statement that rules out Olorin being more wise than Melian? I do not recall this.

Luthien was not a Maia, though she was greater than average as evident by her powers over Sauron and Melkor.



Ulairi said:


> Whenever a divine being in Tolkien's works disperses 'inherent power', it is always considered an evil action.


Was Melian's girdle a dispersing of 'inherent power'? Yavanna and the Trees? Luthien and the hair-cloak?


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## Úlairi (Jan 25, 2004)

Nóm said:


> Pengolodh said that regarding the incarnation of the Ainur.
> 
> I see no reason Luthiens 'raiment' were not regular incarnate's clothing.



Yeah, that was a mistake on my part, I took the 'raiment' described that the Valar used and when the word was seen again I automatically presumed that it was referring to her being one of the Ainur using one of those forms. It was also because Manwë was described as having blue raiment, and not in the same sense that Lúthien was likely to have hers.



Nóm said:


> Also: Where does Tolkien say the Valar do not use the matter of Arda when they take shape?





> _HoME X: Morgoth's Ring: Ainulindalë: The Music of the Ainur and the coming of the Valar_
> *"§25 Moreover their shape comes of their knowledge and desire of the visible World, rather than the World itself, and they need it not, save only as we use raiment, and yet we may be naked and suffer no loss of our being."*



Thought that was clear and simple Nóm. 



Nóm said:


> AND: Where is the statement that rules out Olorin being more wise than Melian? I do not recall this.





> _The Silmarillion: Valaquenta: Of the Maiar_
> *"Wisest of the Maiar was Olórin. He too dwelt in Lórien, but his ways took him often to the house of Nienna, and of her he learned pity and patience."*





> _The Silmarillion: Chapter IV: Of Thingol and Melian_
> *"Melian was a Maia, of the race of the Valar. She dwelt in the gardens of Lórien, and among all his people there were none more beautiful than Melian, nor more wise, nor more skilled in songs of enchantment."*



He was of Lórien and was said to be and I quote: 'The wisest of the Maiar'. Melian too, was of Lórien, and it is said that there were none more wise than her, how is this possible? It isn't, there's a contradiction. However, I did mention 'back doors', I believe that it is said that in _Unfinished Tales_ he was of the people of Manwë, and hence Tolkien has left himself a 'back door'. 



Nóm said:


> Luthien was not a Maia, though she was greater than average as evident by her powers over Sauron and Melkor.



That I know, but how did she vanish? Can she run reeeeeally fast???



Nêm said:


> Was Melian's girdle a dispersing of 'inherent power'? Yavanna and the Trees? Luthien and the hair-cloak?



The girdle (as far as I know) never was a dispersion of power on the part of Melian, the Ring was the actual inherent power of Sauron passing into it, Morgoth's Ring (Arda) was his own inherent power being disseminated into the _erma_ of Arda. Melian's Girdle was but a mere creation, and, being a sub-creation, I have absolutely no idea how she did it without using the physical constituents of Arda, beats me. As for Yavanna and the Trees, answers simple. She 'sung' the trees into existence under Ilúvatar, and as I mentioned before the Valar did not let their own beings pass into the physical constituents of the earth, it was all done under Ilúvatar. If that were the case, then I would indeed say that all the Valar too, would end up becoming incarnate creatures themselves!!! In _Myths Transformed_ it mentions that Morgoth could only 'mar' what had been created because he only had a firm grasp and understanding of the physical.


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