# WoT vs. LOTR?



## Elentári

Hey everyone!

As some of you might know I am reading through the Wheel of Time. The reason that I started it was because it said (on the front of the book) that it took place in ME. After reading the first book though I was not too sure about that.

Yet, now that I have gotten through the second book, there are a few things that I have noticed that might be the same.

Such as there was an inn that they (Rand, Lolial and Hurrin (I am too lazy to look up to see if that is how to spell their names!)) Anyway, the name of the inn was the Nine Rings and Rand says that that is one of his favorite stories. There are other things too such as the Mountains of Mist.

Has anyone seen anything else that is the same? Or am I just looking for things? And was this book a take-off?

*please tell me that this was the right place to put this thread*


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## Talierin

You misread the cover.... the thing actually says it's LIKE Tolkien's Middle-earth, not that it is... 

And yes, there is a lot of things taken from Tolkien, unfortunately, but Robert Jordan's just in it for the money, he doesn't care about ripping off Tolkien...


As you can tell, I have little love for WoT... got up to book 6 and said forget it.


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## Lord of Ry'leh

The Wheel of Time does nat take place in ME, but the series is often compared to Tolkien's work. Of course there are elements that resembles Tolkien, but I would challenge anyone to show me a modern fantasy that doesn't have some aspect of Tolkienism in it. But if you want to complain about a book ripping off Lord of the Rings badly, have a go at the terrible Shannara books by Terry Brooks.


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## Talierin

Oh gosh, don't even get me started with that one.... I got the first book out of the library, read the first chapter, and threw it across the room  talk about a rip-off...


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## HLGStrider

Well, I'm not a huge fan of the WoT, but I read more than Tal. . .I got up to the "Winters Heart" (I think that is what they call it). I quit because I got mad at Rand for getting Elayne pregnant like an idiot. . .and also, I was getting a bit suspicious of the stigmata they were giving Rand. . .he was turning into a Christ like figure without having any real redeeming qualities. 

They're fairly well written, though Jordan likes confusing endings, and they do steal elements.


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## Elentári

Well gosh, now I am beginning to wonder if I should read any more of the books. 

Talierin, I think that you are right in me misreading the cover. I just read it over again and it says he (jordan) writes of a world that Tolkien began to reveal. (I paraphrased it.)

*and also, I was getting a bit suspicious of the stigmata they were giving Rand. . .he was turning into a Christ like figure without having any real redeeming qualities. * 

Hummm. Really? I don't think that that sounds too good.

What I guess that makes me really sad is that the story could have been a good one. He did write a bit too much (10 books and another coming out in the spring!) But still there are the threads of a good story hidden in them (if you can read around some of the things that he has in there.)

Does anyone know when the books are going to end?

*but I would challenge anyone to show me a modern fantasy that doesn't have some aspect of Tolkienism in it* 

I agree. I find that some of my own stories that I have writen have it in them (if only faintly!)


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## Eliot

> _Originally posted by Elentári _
> *Well gosh, now I am beginning to wonder if I should read any more of the books. *



Me too...


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## HLGStrider

Writes too much is one way to put it. . .the length isn't the problem, but the subplots are. . .and that characters who die come back again in the next book in odd ways, often vaguely explained ways. . .

It's like you need to write things down to keep track of it all. I read all the books in pretty close succession, so it wasnt' a huge problem with me, but whenever I took a week long break between books (I did between at least two) I found myself VERY confused when I picked up the next.


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## Gildor

If you ever want to read something that rips off Lord of the Rings pretty much completely, try the Iron Tower Trilogy by Dennis L. McKiernen.


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## HLGStrider

Or try some of the stuff I've written. . .  

What follows is a summery of a story I'm going to write someday my siblings tell me I shouldn't write because it is too Tolkieny:

The kingdom of Ana is next to the kingdom of Eris. The kingdom of Eris is ruled by darkness and inhabited by evil men and slaves, most slaves kidnapped from Ana. There is a range of mountains in between. 
A young boy named Orin lives in one village with his family. When the village is attacked by Erisians he and his little sister Leli flee it in different directions. Orin hides. Next morning he finds his village gone and Leli's doll lying in some bushes. He keeps it for sentimental value... 
Orin is found in the ruins by Malcye the Sage. Malcye takes the child in though he doesn't wish to be bothered by his own child. Orin just wants to rescue his family. Malcye wants to get him to safety. Compromising they seek out the Dragon Slayer, a warrior of the boarder lands. On the way Malcye lectures Orin on the ways of the Sages and healers (A healer is a female sage. A healer will lose her powers if she uses them to hurt anyone.) and other information that will come up handy later in the plot.
The Dragon Slayer, Cor, is in the Alabaster City where the Guardians, rulers of Ana, live. Cor serves them, leading troups of equally brave warriors. Malcye leaves Orin with Cor, a gruff, noble man, and goest to consult the leader of the Sages, Estam.
Malcye finds him frightened. The darknes in Eris is spreading, growing larger and more malevolent. Evil is increasing in the hearts of men even within the Alabaster City. Estam sees a glimmer of hope in the seemingly hopeless quest of Orin. To reach the other side of the Dagger Range and to strike evil in its heart is their last hope... To bear into the darkness the purest light, long sheltered by the Guardians, would render the darkness harmless.
Estam takes his plan to the High Guardian, Lilven. Reluctant to risk the purest light but knowing of the urgency Lilven entrusts the light to his twin son's Airn and Cairn. The twins are entrusted to Estam.
The quest is to bring the light to Eris under the guise of a rescue party. Such parties have been known to pierce the Dagger Mountains but never to return.
Also assigned to the mission is Cor. Orin is unaware of their true mission. The Healer, Sherena, also comes. She is an ageless yet ancient woman and rival to Estam. She vied for his ruling seat years before. She is critical of his every move.
They continue through civilized lands, knowing that the entrance to Eris is guarded by trolls, dragons, Black Sages, and worse. No one has escaped it, and the way in is known only to those of evil and their unfortunate slaves. No one has ever emerged. They want a secret back route, the idea supported by Sherena and Malcye. Cor and the Twins wish an assulat on the known entrance of Crag Pass, a fiercely guarded area.
While they are debating Orin catches a man steeling from them. He screams, and the thief is captured by Cor. Cor wishes to slay the thief, Cat Artur, but he having found out much of their plan, makes a plea for his life. He knows the one person who has ever returned from Eris. His story endures the Sword of Truth, and he leads them to his village. 
There they meet Breilla. She was captured along with her grandfather, a shepherd, uncle, and parents at five (the age of Orin's sister). A year later her grandfather stumbled out of the mountains carrying her on his shoulders. He died upon reaching the green pastures of Ana. Breilla was rescued and stumbled through life before meeting Cat. She is innocent and remembers little of her journey. Cor is charmed by her and distrustful of Cat. To keep her dear Cat's word Breilla vows to escort them into Eris. Cat comes along to be with her. Cor suspects him of great evil.
Orin learns wisdom from Malcye, courtly manners from the twins, fighting from Cor, healing from Sherena, and about love from Breilla. He is strangely drawn to Cat. When Sherena reveals that the real purpose of their mission is not to recover his family, he flees from Malcye and turns to Cat. Cat gives him understanding.
They reach the mountain's feet and stop whhile Breilla tries to remember the way. When they continue Estam orders them to deviate from the path Breilla remembers. They discover the body of Orin's fatehr. Cat mysteriously disappears half way through the day .
That night they are attacked by trolls without warning. The guard has been stabbed from behind. In the fight Cairn and Breilla are wounded and many of Cor's comrades are killed. Cat returns as mysteriously as he left, claiming he just went for a walk. Cor accuses him of treachery and being in league with the darkness. Again Cor tries to kill Cat, but Breilla's pleading stops him. Cat leaves the group. Cor's love for Breilla is now obvious. Cat's leaving warning is to Breilla and Orin: he is not the traitor and they are walking into danger. Cat confesses his love for Breilla.
Breilla suddenly loses all memory of her journey and gains a pounding head ache. They follow Estam's lead to an underground passage. It leads them into Eris. They sneak through the mines, pits, and slave farms to the edge of the slave city of Durkha. The darkness is strong. Cor and Breilla stay behind, but Orin goes with the main group, against Malcye's wishes. As Airn and Cairn take out the Purest Light to weild it they are struck down by an evil magic. 
Estam has turned against them. His whole intent was to get the light into the Realm of Eris. The twins are slain. Sherena and Malcye are rendered powerless by Estam's stronger magic. Orin is locked in the same cage as the enslaved Leli. They have a tearful reunion, but it turns out their mother is dead. Cor and his warriors are attacked. Only Cor survives. Breilla is captured. Cor attacks to save her and is also captured, losing his sword in the process. Knowing of Cor's love for Breilla, Estam tortures Cor to the edge of death then prepares to kill Breilla before his eyes.
Cat appears, bearing Cor's lost sword. He attacks to save Breilla, yelling at her to run. Breilla won't leave him. Cat is hurt by Estam. Breilla holds him and professes her love.
Leli uses a knife hidden with in her doll to free herself and Orin. While Estam is busy with Cat they free Malcye and Sherena. Sherena gets ahold of the Purest Light. Knowing Sherena to be true hearted the ligiht shines hot and white. Estam and many of his followers are turned to stone. The slaves are freed. The fatally wounded Cor says farewell to Cat and Breilla, giving them his blessing.
What remains of the party stumbles back into Ana. Malcye and Sherena say good-bye to Orin and Leli. They will return to the Alabaster City where a new chief sage must be ellected. Cat and Breilla offer the children a home with them. Happy ending.


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## Rangerdave

Talierin said:


> As you can tell, I have little love for WoT... got up to book 6 and said forget it.



In that case, allow me to present a little gem from my favorite living author: Harlan Ellison.



> I'll put this simply. If J.R.R.-freakin'-Tolkien could wrap up the first, biggest, and best epic ever in three books, no one else has ANY excuse to do otherwise. I recognize that a lot of authors have a lot of their time and energy invested in their pet worlds, and I also recognize that books about those worlds are often in demand by their fans. I recognize that as a rationalization, not an excuse.
> 
> I don't really mind if the scope of your universe is big enough to fit a non-linear and widely variant body of work. Niven's Known Space, Heinlein's Future History, Fiest's Midkemia, these are all pretty large and well-populated universes with a wide range of possibilities. They are all places I don't mind coming back to and visiting from time to time with just enough continuity and familiarity to set the mood. It's these long-running series of books that are either purely or damn-near linear and use largely the same (ever expanding) character set that set me to sneering like Elvis.
> 
> Why? You get suckered in, you buy the first couple of books and they look good and you have no idea that the author is never going to stop, never, not even if he has a major stroke and has to type out the next four 700-page installments with his tongue. Meanwhile, you're waiting 6 to 18 months for the next book depending on how big a hack you've chosen and after a while you've forgotten why you gave a REMOVED about any of the heroes or villians. Forget term limits for politicians, what about term limits for a series?
> 
> Mr. Jordan, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but your series is getting so damn long it's approaching the level of a racial memory. The last couple were a few hundred pages of people walking from place to place looking confused sandwiched in between two fifty page chunks of stuff actually HAPPENING. It's like watching four sloths trying to complete the Eco Challenge. You've got more major characters than most of the remaining readers have brain cells, there's so much plot and character mixing that people are writing books just to keep up with it and folks are arguing on Usenet about just who is who instead of talking about the plot. Can you please, please, wrap things up a bit before the Wheel of Time rolls over whatever patience I have left?




You gotta love Harlan  

RD


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## Legolam

I think a little bit of positivity about WoT is needed here! I personally think it's a fantastic series. One of the things I don't like about LOTR is that I can read it in a day - it's over far too quickly. I don't condone Jordan's tendency to go just a tad over the top, but the world he has created is nevertheless fantastic, and always leave me wanting more without disappointing. Granted, the first 6 books are better than the last 3 (I haven't read book ten yet, but I have book tokens and will be buying it in 2 days time!!), but it's still a fantastically epic story that leaves you guessing where it will go.

He's also not scared about killing off major characters, which helps, and it's written in a far more modern tone than LOTR, which gives more power to female characters and modern plotlines. The fact that he's still writing it alternately annoys me and gives me more pleasure, as I don't read the books TOO fast and miss things, like I do with LOTR.

My opinion is that you should stick with WoT as the next step in fantasy novels after Tolkien - it's by far the best fantasy series I've read (and that's possibly including LOTR <-- heresy?!)


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## arisen pheonix

i just finished the crown of swords and i thought it was good.....as for the mad dragon reborn being a christ figure he got a lot of work to do before he gets there.....it is a good book... its easy to wrap your mind around with enough action to take you away from the real world....and i did like some of the ideas for the creatures...the ogier and the myrradill and dragkars...even though some of it is not all there.....like the explanation for lews therin kinslayer....and who ba alzamon is exactly...but for the most part i liked it


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## HLGStrider

> He's also not scared about killing off major characters


That's because he likes to use reincarnation. I am willing to bet that one. . .great. . .I've forgotten her name and how to spell what she is. ..it's been over a year. . .Aes Sedai? The one who started the whole thing? Lan's former partner?. . .Anyway, she'll be back.

The Minstral disappeared in the first book and came back out of no where in either the second or third. 

A lot of other people sort of fade in and out and in and out. . .


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## Flame of Udûn

Referring to similarities between TWOT and TLOTR, there is the Nine Rings Inn in Cairhien, the story of Bili Under the Hill and his three guesses, and one of the characters uses Mr. Underhill as an alias. Don't worry, Jordan has stated that these are tributes, so he is not trying to subliminally make you think that you are reading Tolkien.


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## Legolam

HLGStrider said:


> That's because he likes to use reincarnation. I am willing to bet that one. . .great. . .I've forgotten her name and how to spell what she is. ..it's been over a year. . .Aes Sedai? The one who started the whole thing? Lan's former partner?. . .Anyway, she'll be back.


You're thinking of Moiraine, right? I've been waiting for her to come back too, and I'm now thinking it may just be a ruse to get all us geeks talking  

I think the reincarnation thing works well with the whole theory of the "Wheel of Time" turning etc. And I love all the extra bits like the symbols at the tops of the first page of a chapter symbolising the main character in that chapter. And each chapter being from the point of view of a different character. Stuff like that is really well done. Of course, when characters like Bayle Domon just appear in really stupid circumstances two or three times to rescue the main characters, that starts to annoy me.

No book is perfect!!


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## arisen pheonix

question- were the Aes Sedai there before the breaking??? people who could channle obviously were but did they have a "White Tower" type organization???


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## HLGStrider

> And I love all the extra bits like the symbols at the tops of the first page of a chapter symbolising the main character in that chapter.


 
Actually, I loved that too. I tried to copy it in a book I was writing at the time, but my symbols were too terribly elaborate.


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## Rhiannon

I love the quote RD posted from Harlan Ellison (I really should read more stuff by him...if I ever get published, we'll be shelved next to each other). That sums it up perfectly. WoT started out wonderful (well, I thought so when I was twelve), but is just too. freaking. LONG. With huuuuge monster sized gaps in between books, so that if you want to have any idea what is going on you have to re-read the entire series each time one comes out. So many subplots, too many minor characters who pop up five books later and do something important- and apart from that, around book five or six all of the character started to become increasingly obnoxious and I just didn't like them anymore (someone make Rand Shut Up!...And the voices in his head, too!)

I read the series up until _Crown of Swords_ with slowly waning interest, and then realized I was skipping huge chunks of the book because I no longer had any idea what was going on with several of the major characters and I was just flipping through to find out what happened to Lan and Nynaeve- the only characters I care at all about. I haven't bothered to read the most recent one, since my brother told me they're only mentioned in passing (why do I always latch on to the obscure characters?)



> but I would challenge anyone to show me a modern fantasy that doesn't have some aspect of Tolkienism in it


Define 'fantasy'. Sword & Sorcery? Probably could. High Fantasy? Not likely. Fairy Tales? Good chance, I can think of several.


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## HLGStrider

For original fantasy meaning non-Tolkien, I can definitely think of some juveniel fiction works, those by Gail Carson-Levine and Lloyd Alexander.


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## Rhiannon

Gail Carson Levine falls under 'fairy tales', Lloyd Alexander is YA fantasy- YA fantasy is actually more original as a whole than most of the things in the adult fantasy section, I think. Garth Nix's Old Kingdom Trilogy is free of Tolkien parallels, I believe, and so is Robin McKinley's _The Blue Sword_ (her _Hero and the Crown_ isn't, though, but the parallels are few and subtle).


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## Starflower

arisen pheonix said:


> question- were the Aes Sedai there before the breaking??? people who could channle obviously were but did they have a "White Tower" type organization???




yes - before the Breaking there were male Aes Sedai and female Aes Sedai. Then after the Breaking all the men went mad, and only women were allowed to channel. They founded the Tower sometime after the Breaking.


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## arisen pheonix

OIC....thanx


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## Khamul

Not sure why there's is such a negative outlook on the books. I found it to be one of the best series I have ever read. On par, if not equal to Tolkien; but, that's pretty much only me. One thing, Morraine was never really technically dead in that sense. From what I can understand, her body was fully in the ter'angreal, but I really don't have much knowledge in regard to what that particular ter'angreal can do. 

Actually, I love all the subplots, and I am really not sure why that is necessarily a bad thing. Lots of character developments, and I love the scale of the book. It's just enormous, and to actually bring home most of the ideas and themes of the books, repetition is sometimes needed. 

(Also, I really don't see how Jordan is really ripping Tolkien. The personalities of the characters are all vastly different, and it's not exactly something incredibly original to have "peasants" to rise up and save the world. Other than a few tributes in minor characters or inns, of course...)


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## arisen pheonix

i dont understand the connection between slayer and lan.....on the site i went to it said in teleranriod he could be his brother... i thought he was the only one left???....but in life as lord luc he looked not like lan but rands ..uncle isnt it?... wheres the connection?


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## Elentári

Wohba! This thread has grown in my short time away.

So from what I can see, you can be one of two minds- hate the series with a passion or love it just as much as Tolkien.  

Also there are lots of spoilers that have popped up here too.


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## Rhiannon

Or you could just be really really sick to death of the WoT series and excessively annoyed with Robert Jordan. Which is kind of-but-not-quite the same thing as hating it with a passion.


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## arisen pheonix

why would you wear a crown that could stab you?(crown of swords)....i mean seriously would you wear that?


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## Khamul

Sometimes power hurts, and that was just a symbol of Rand's burden, I would suppose.
One thing that I find a bit annoying is the argument about how Tolkien was able to complete his world in three books...
Firstly, there are twelve or so HOME books that are pretty much needed to understand the nuances of Tolkien's work. Admittedly, these were compiled and published by his son for the most part.
Secondly, Jordan created a much, much vaster world and he actually tried to explain the history of what happened without alot of vague references that pretty much force you to read the "extra" books for a decent level of comprehension.
Thirdly, Tolkien was a master of using utterly unfathomable ways to let little Frodo and Sam make it all the way to big, bad Mount Doom. Orcs killing out about every single person in the city and leaving Frodo alive? Hardly probable. How they managed to get away from a pack of orcs that they actually ended up being placed into, especially with their size? I am sure that Sting would probably have been fairly visible on at least one of them, and I can't really say that any commanding Orc would let any "midget" Orc keep a shiny little sword for too long. Remember, they basically took out the orc population over the mithril shirt, though that was easily worth an enormous amount of money or whatever currency was most popular among Orcs. Also, what are the chances of him living after a wound from the Witchking?! I mean, come on, the Witchking obviously wanted to kill him, and it was about to just wound him for life. It amazes me that Frodo's head was not chopped off and Aragorn defeated by about 7 Nazgul (Not sure of the exact # at Weathertop, been a while.) Of course Frodo has to be saved by the Eagles after he "destroys" the Ring. Whatever happened to your tragic hero that gives up his life for the life of everyone else? Also, why were the Nazgul so imcompetent? Tolkien would build up an incredible level of suspense, and then the enemy suddenly became almost meaningless. Not sure about you, but I think I would be a bit more worried about facing a Trolloc than an Orc. Can't say that I would really enjoy either, but Trollocs and Myddraal have always come across as being far more evil than the Orcs for some reason. That's probably only me of course. 

Will get to this later, have to go.


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## Rhiannon

Khamul said:


> Sometimes power hurts, and that was just a symbol of Rand's burden, I would suppose.
> One thing that I find a bit annoying is the argument about how Tolkien was able to complete his world in three books...
> Firstly, there are twelve or so HOME books that are pretty much needed to understand the nuances of Tolkien's work. .


To understand the _nuances_. You can read and enjoy the book without them. With WoT you have to remember minor characters' names from three books ago to follow the general plot. Bor-ing.


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## Khamul

I don't know about you, but I haven't really had a problem with that. (By the way, if you think Thom coming back was improbable, think about Gandalf, lol)


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## Rhiannon

It bugs me. I don't have time to re-read nine books in order to make this one that has just come out after a four year gap to make any kind of sense. 

Any series of books that goes on for more than six volumes should either jump generations, or end.


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## HLGStrider

I don't think you can really compare Thom and Gandalf coming back. With Gandalf it was this huge return scene, but if I remember correctly, Thom just sort of showed up again and "Wow, you're alive. That's great." . .but that was at least three years ago. All I remember was that it didn't make an impression on me. Also Thom is one of what, a hundred. I just used him because I could remember how to spell his name. 


It's very complex. I don't like a book that leaves me thinking, "Whatsit?" Every so often. I also found they were written in a way that was too gritty for my personal taste, but that is definite personal taste. I'm not even sure if you'll understand what I mean by gritty.


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## Lindir

Even though WOT is not as good as LOTR, I still like it very much. It’s true that the last few books have been somewhat disappointing, especially the last one, which didn’t make any sense at all and certainly didn’t do much to forward the story. 
But on the whole I find WOT interesting and fascinating enough to keep waiting for the next book, and the next one after that and so on until it’s finished. 
Most WOT fanatics have no problem remembering the plot or the huge amounts of characters because just as Tolkien fans they re-read the books several times and spend time discussing it and coming up with theories about what is really going on. This is part of the fun, although the discussion kind of died after the last book, since, as I mentioned, it didn’t bring the plot forward much.
But I really can’t stand Elayne. Horrible things should happen to her.


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## arisen pheonix

i agree....elayne is corrupting the Band...i feel sorry for mat


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## Khamul

Elayne is just bloody boring.


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## arisen pheonix

also true....is there anyone in the series that will not be corrupted?...even mats starting to turn....rands gone, perrins gone, lan was never there, avendas gone, mins gone....maybe brigette will last....


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## HLGStrider

WoT is a loss of innocence type story. Everyone starts out innocent and ends up corrupted in some way or another. I prefer stories where innocence fights back and maintains most of its innocence or somehow regains it, but they're rare.


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## Rhiannon

AAAAAAAH!!! Thomas Hardy! Noooooooo!!!!!!

I put down books like that and don't pick them back up because they depress me and I don't have the strength of personality to bounce back up. And why willingly subject myself to that when the world is bad enough?


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## HLGStrider

Most stories are on that line now, however. The idea that the Tree of Knowledge was a gift, that innocence is ignorant bliss. . .

Control me, I feel a poem coming on with those lines. ..


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## Rhiannon

*snaps Tupperware lid on Elgee*

I think my dislike for stories like that is why I gravitate towards fairy tales and fantasy more than non-fiction or historical novels. I have a strong sense of the fantastic, and I like the good guys to win. To be simplistic about it.


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## HLGStrider

"HELP! HELP! HELP!" Comes Elgee's muffled voice from inside the tupperware as she fiercely fights to get free and start spouting things that rhyme.


Though I suppose I'm reading _Paradise Lost _the ultimate loss of innocence story.


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## Rhiannon

_Mwahahahahaha!_ Rhi laughs maniacally as she sits on the Tupperware lids, keeping Elgee trapped inside...

I don't think I'm ever going to get around to reading Paradise Lost...I was supposed to read Dante's Inferno, but the translation we have is very stuffy and old and pompous, so I gave up. But Paradise Lost is one of those things that I've read vicariously, so I can fake it.


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## HLGStrider

Actually, I'm enjoying _Paradise Lost _hugely! I even wrote a poem about it! Elgee snaps out of the tupperware and waxes badly poetic. . .


Paradise Found

January 8th, 2004

Slipping into educated bliss

Ideas I always had

Thoughts I always knew

Confirmed in eloquence

On pages black and white

Comforts the heart

Expands the mind

I slowly rest in the joys of good books.

I slowly lose the world and gain my soul.

REALLY BADLY poetic.


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## Khamul

*Points accusing finger at Off-topic posts*
Well, I guess sometimes, evil is so great that it ends up tainting anyone involved, and I find the character development to be a bit more realistic when you consider the circumstances.


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## arisen pheonix

good guys winning?...wheres the fun in that....?


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## Rhiannon

Aieeee! _Rhi struggles to squish Elgee's terrible poetic impulses back down in to the Tupperware container_.

I'm not against the realism of evil tainting those who come in contact with it- ie Frodo- but I _do_ like the good to win out in the end. I want my ray of sunshine, I want to find hope in the bottom of Pandora's box. Because if that's not there, why is anything worth bothering with?


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## arisen pheonix

ah...we are being terribley neoclassic arent we....over all odds good must always win....no i think its beast when the end both good and evil are tainted by eachother...better story..more realistic....and at the end of the book its difficult to say who won


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## HLGStrider

> Well, I guess sometimes, evil is so great that it ends up tainting anyone involved, and I find the character development to be a bit more realistic when you consider the circumstances


That incredibly depends on what you mean by taint. Walking the world's dusty roads a man's shoes get dirty, of course, and when you fight the dirtiest, some rubs off on you, but you can always wash it off at the end of the day, you find your "redemption." On the other hand if the good is just as bad as the bad after a few chapters, why do you care to root for the good anymore? Why do you care at all?



> we are being terribley neoclassic arent we....over all odds good must always win....no i think its beast when the end both good and evil are tainted by eachother...better story..more realistic....and at the end of the book its difficult to say who won


As, I said, why would you want an unheroic hero? I think the end of every story should be redemption of some sort. I'm not asking to come to a Shire unharmed or for a total happily ever after, but if the character is corrupted by forces, he needs to be redeemed not, "What the heck! I fight better dirty." He should have guilt about being corrupted. . .and there should always be someone who remains pure for contrast. In WoT no one is pure for contrast. You are left without any characters you'd trust your daughter alone with or would really like to befriend. The only characters in WoT I really trust are Perrin and Mat and Perrin isn't interesting, and Mat while I'd trust with my life, I wouldn't be around him unless I was heavily shrowded in sixteen veils.


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## Lindir

HLGStrider said:


> On the other hand if the good is just as bad as the bad after a few chapters, why do you care to root for the good anymore? Why do you care at all?
> 
> The only characters in WoT I really trust are Perrin and Mat and Perrin isn't interesting, and Mat while I'd trust with my life, I wouldn't be around him unless I was heavily shrowded in sixteen veils.



Absolute good vs. absolute evil tends to get boring after a while; it's not something I can relate to. A little taint goes a long way to make the characters more human and believable. And in WOT I think the bad guys are a bit more interesting than the good, not that I hope they win, but I like reading about them. My favourite person in WOT is Mazrim Taim, and he is definitely not up to any good.
And there are several people in WOT that are good and trustworthy, even if they are slightly, or indeed very, boring; for example the Wonder Girls.


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## HLGStrider

> Absolute good vs. absolute evil tends to get boring after a while; it's not something I can relate to.
> 
> A little taint goes a long way to make the characters more human and believable.


I seperated the two ideas I'm dealing with in this post by the paragraph thingy. . .

Absolute good vs. absolute evil isn't what I'm asking for. I like good to be backed by an absolute good and to be backed with absolutely good standards. However, I don't care if not everyone on the good side is there for a good reason. I like the idea of a man joining a cause for profit. . .and eventually coming to realize it is a good cause. I don't like a man who joins a good cause and eventually realizes all there is is profit, goes after the profit, and eventually wins because he plays meaner. If he realizes that it is all profit, I like him to go a little bad because of this and then be redeemed, pardon repetition, by returning to his root values.

I don't want the characters or the situations to be all good. I want the root values to be. I want some moral clarity. 

As for characters, how much do you see as a little taint? Everyone has faults. You can't make a perfect character. However, I find goodness interesting. I want to like my good guys better than my bad. 

When writing my novel, the bad guy had some very interesting character traits that made him fun to work with, fun to write with, and I hope fun to read. However, it was obvious he was bad. There was no doubt that in the end he deserved to lose. There was no doubt that in the end the good guys deserved to win. 

Personally, I wouldn't care that much if Rand did go mad, kill everyone else in the book, and then disintigrate.


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## Lindir

HLGStrider said:


> I don't want the characters or the situations to be all good. I want the root values to be. I want some moral clarity.
> 
> As for characters, how much do you see as a little taint? Everyone has faults. You can't make a perfect character. However, I find goodness interesting. I want to like my good guys better than my bad.



I think you will find all this in WOT; the good guys ARE fundamentally good, even if they go a bit astray at times, and this most definitely includes Rand. They are good because they oppose the DO, and that is really all that matters. But in addition to this they are also ACTIVELY fighting the DO, which makes them even better.
And a little taint is what makes a character interesting as opposed to really boring. Mat’s flaws are what have made him interesting from the beginning, when both Rand and Perrin were still pretty lame. Perrin’s recent atrocities and Rand’s more shady sides (and I’m not talking mushy love affairs) have made them much better characters. 
I guess I find badness more interesting than goodness, even though I want the good side to win eventually. It's Fantasy; the good side always win.


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## HLGStrider

Rand's love affairs aren't really his bad side. . .they're just stupid and irresponsible. . .


And Mat is my favorite character, but I think that is just because he is more interesting not just in faults but in good points. His good points accent his faults. His faults accent his good points. With Perrin. . .I really couldn't give you a character sketch on him. Rand, his bad points are intollerable. His good points are cliche or marginal. 

Rand doesn't deserve to be the hero of these stories, and he is.



I was just thinking of bad points of Rand and I think I've hit why he isn't interesting to me. . .whether this is a bad point or not is up to you.

From the begining of Rand's "Dragonhood," Jordan has chosen to accent the inescabability of his fate. Ever since then, everything Rand has done has seemed to be at the whim of fate, and when he does react on his own whim it goes wrong or makes him looks stupid. . .or both. His love affairs are the same way. Everytime he seems to lose control, seduce the girl (or be seduced by her) and afterwards seem to regret it. It's like he believe he's doing something wrong but can't control himself. If it were just once where he couldn't control himself, I could write it off, but it isn't. 

With Mat, I grow sick of his philandering, but it is clear he is making these choices. 
With Rand, I grow sick of his philandering, but they make it as if it isn't his own fault, and I grow sick of it.
Same with the few times he's done other things in rage or wrath etc.


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## Rhiannon

Rand is just flat out obnoxious. "Aw, geez, will someone make him shut up and stop whining already? How many more books until they kill him? Can we hurry it up?"


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## Lindir

Rhiannon said:


> Rand is just flat out obnoxious. "Aw, geez, will someone make him shut up and stop whining already? How many more books until they kill him? Can we hurry it up?"


I'm afraid he won't die. Jordan has a real problem killing off main characters. Even when they seem to die they come back. He'll probably live happily ever after and all that.


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## Lindir

HLGStrider said:


> Rand's love affairs aren't really his bad side. . .they're just stupid and irresponsible. . .


I just think they're boring.


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## arisen pheonix

i agree...do you think anyone in the story will remain un-affected by the car a carn's ta avern pull?


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## HLGStrider

Probably not. . .

Does anyone want to see my long list of WoT characters I wouldn't mind seeing dead within a chapter or two?


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## Rhiannon

Fire away, Elgee. Off the top of my head, I'm ready to see Rand go, NOW, please, along with Elayne, Min (and I used to like her, too), Aviendha (just get all three in one fell swoop), Morgause, pretty much all of the minor characters, especially any nobles, and Egwene.


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## Khamul

I thought you wanted the good guys to win, lol.


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## HLGStrider

Which means when WE want to see them gone, they really must be boring good guys.


Though I would keep Mat. Thom was ok at first, but now I'm sick of him. The Olgier is sort of cool. . .in his ownish way.

Ok, so we have a book based on Mat and an Olgier. . .

I suppose you like Nyna. . .Nina. .Nyneve? The one with Lan (A name it is hard to forget how to spell). I never did, even before she got Lan, sort of pushy. . .


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## Rhiannon

Yeah, I liked Nynaeve from the first  She and Lan are the only two characters I'm interested in finding out what happens to them (Lan is so totally my type...I love Lan). Even while recognizing her as a stereotype, and seeing her really really annoying qualities...she says and does everything I feel like doing


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## arisen pheonix

avendiah,min,elayne, egwene, faile(cannot stand her), galad, the senchan lady whats-her-face, sevannah, modhegian, well all of the forsaken (the only relly cool one is gone already, why did he have to kill ishmeal?), allana, elaidia... and thats aboout it....

i would love to see ishmeal come back...the only cool bad guy left is the too tall myrradill...


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## Flame of Udûn

How could you have read ten books and still spell the names incorrectly?


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## arisen pheonix

it doesnt matter if there spelled right so long as we all know who we are talking about...


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## Flame of Udûn

I am not saying it matters or doesn't matter, it just surprises me that the spelling could elude you after so many repetitions, as the mistakes are made out of ignorance, not choice.


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## HLGStrider

I'd say more likely apathy than ignorance. I don't care to try and spell the names right either. I'm well aware that I mispronounce them too. I don't care. I really, really, really don't care. 

Also, it is hard to remember words that one rarely uses and one has most likely never heard spoken.


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## arisen pheonix

also true....anybody seen the New Spring book...the one about moraine and suiane before they were the aes seadi we know and love today?...started reading it yesterday....weird


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## HLGStrider

Saw it meaning opened the cover or just passed your eye over it in the book store? Because I saw it in the second sense and read the cover.


I wondered what it was. It didn't look like the rest of the series somehow.


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## Rhiannon

I read the short version, the novella that was included in the _Legends_ anthology (vol. III).


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## Eliot

Yay, my library finally got _The Dragon Reborn_, and I started that last night while in bed.


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## Lindir

arisen pheonix said:


> also true....anybody seen the New Spring book...the one about moraine and suiane before they were the aes seadi we know and love today?...started reading it yesterday....weird


I read it last week and I thought it was pretty good. Moraine was always one of my favourite characters and it's time she came back now.


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## Lindir

arisen pheonix said:


> i would love to see ishmeal come back...the only cool bad guy left is the too tall myrradill...


He is back. 
And Mazrim Taim is still cool. Too bad he will have to die.


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## Flame of Udûn

You realise that _New Spring_ was a prequel, right? Moiraine is not back in the main storyline yet, though she will be.


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## Lindir

Flame of Udûn said:


> You realise that _New Spring_ was a prequel, right? Moiraine is not back in the main storyline yet, though she will be.


Yes, I know that (I read the book after all). I just stated that I want her to come back, not that I thought she had.


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## Legolam

I've never seen this "New Spring" book - is it readily available most places? Or maybe I'm just not looking properly! And I've still to make it down to a book shop and buy book 10.


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## Flame of Udûn

Legolam said:


> I've never seen this "New Spring" book - is it readily available most places? Or maybe I'm just not looking properly! And I've still to make it down to a book shop and buy book 10.


It was released early this month, so it may not have penetrated to overseas markets yet. I know I can't find it in Australia.


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## Lindir

Flame of Udûn said:


> It was released early this month, so it may not have penetrated to overseas markets yet. I know I can't find it in Australia.


It has reached this oversea market (Sweden) but I think Jordan's books are a bit slow coming out in Australia, according to what I've heard from frustrated fans.


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## Legolam

I know that we're about a year behind getting the regular books, dammit!


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## arisen pheonix

Lindir said:


> He is back.
> And Mazrim Taim is still cool. Too bad he will have to die.




hes back?!!...who? .. where?


taim is cool.....just not as cool


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## Lindir

arisen pheonix said:


> hes back?!!...who? .. where?


It’s pretty generally accepted that ‘Ishamael’ is back as the recycled Forsaken ’Moridin’.


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## arisen pheonix

the one thats has the Spiders soul box-thingy?


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## Lindir

arisen pheonix said:


> the one thats has the Spiders soul box-thingy?


That's the one.


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## arisen pheonix

then why does he help rand get away from the other forsaken?...i would think he of all people would want rand dead....


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## Khamul

I think that the Dark Lord still wants Rand for his own service. He thinks he can break his will, but things are a bit different now, lol.


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## arisen pheonix

ah i see...you think ishmeal/mordin will/would be/is the na-blis or whatever they call the head forsaken?


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## Khamul

Well, my opinions after reading might spoil it for some.


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## arisen pheonix

tell us.....please? tell me any way...must know


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## Legolam

Wooooo, I have book 10!!! And I saw that New Spring is out in hardback, but it's a bit too expensive for my poor student loan to stretch to  . I've only just begun reading bk 10, but how long is the Prologue!!! It seems to get longer and more complicated with every book


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## arisen pheonix

you mean that thing were the re aquaint you with all the heroic deeds?...ive never actually read that....


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## Lindir

arisen pheonix said:


> you mean that thing were the re aquaint you with all the heroic deeds?...ive never actually read that....


No, no, no, the prolouges do not repeat things from previous books. They are very important. 
Now go back and read them.


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## arisen pheonix

what part of the book are we talking about?......im fairly sure that i didnt see anything important when i skimmed through it....o well i will go back and look anyway...


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