# If the Valar saw the future, why were they surprised?



## Fëanor_7 (Apr 22, 2019)

After the music of the Ainur, Eru shows them a vision of their creation, and they see 'much of what is to come' (or something similar, can't remember exactly what it says), yet they do not have the foresight to predict fairly major events like Morgoth feigning innocence (though in fairness not all of the Valar are decieved like this) or the slaying of the Trees?


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## Miguel (Apr 22, 2019)

> the Ainur know much of what was, and is, and is to come, and few things are unseen by them. Yet some things there are that they cannot see, neither alone nor taking counsel together


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## Ithilethiel (Apr 22, 2019)

Only Eru Ilúvatar knew all and could see things from end to end


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## Fëanor_7 (Apr 23, 2019)

Okay, that's fair enough, but is there any sources out there that tells us what they were able to see, and what, if any, effect that had on the history of Arda?


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## Ithilethiel (Apr 26, 2019)

It's not so simple to explain in one or two passages. I think the only way to understand the concept is to read the first chapter of _The_ _Silmarillion, Ainulindalë, _the singing of The Great Music, aka the creation story.

The Ainur were created from the thoughts of Ilúvatar so each Ainu possessed only that understanding of things that came from that specific part of Ilúvatar's mind. Melkor was the first and greatest so he understood more than the others but none understood all. It is only at the end of all things that each will understand how each part is connected.

Ilúvatar did explain much to the Ainur/Valar but none knew all. For more on this refer to the _Valaquenta _also from _The_ Silmarillion, _Account of the Valar and Maiar According to the Line of the Eldar, [...]Of the Maiar, [...] Of the Valar_


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## Nameless Thing (May 31, 2019)

I'm rereading the Silmarillion and thinking about this. The Valar didn't major events and weren't able to predict them based on what they saw? For example that Morgoth pretending to change. The whole history is about Morgoth doing bad things, gut they didn't understand that he is still going to play a role?


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## user16578 (Jun 2, 2019)

Fëanor_7 said:


> Okay, that's fair enough, but is there any sources out there that tells us what they were able to see, and what, if any, effect that had on the history of Arda?



They already wrote history through their themes; love, peace, war, etc. , so nothing could be altered... not by them anyway...


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## Olorgando (Aug 24, 2019)

As I vaguely remember, JRRT in the "Lost Tales" phase was quite specific about a lot of details. He seriously backpedaled from this standpoint in the later development of his mythology, much to the benefit of it (but of course to the annoyance of pedants – I know that feeling at least to a degree). So, this is not author-published canon, but I do remember that quite a bit of what JRRT described of the actions – and more so inactions – of the Valar and Maiar back then often made me roll my eyes (as I’ve posted elsewhere). What seems to have remained of this is Manwë’s apparent naïveté regarding Melkor. I mean, even Tulkas wasn’t buying Melkor’s goody-two-shoes act (or have I strayed into non-canon territory again with this?).

This practically turns an argument about Sauron’s (one?) weakness in LoTR on its head: there it was said that Sauron cannot imagine what it would be like to be good, only being able to imagine someone seizing the Ring to overthrow him and take his place. Contrasted to that, Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel can very well imagine what bad the Ring mightdo to them despite their best intentions.

But Manwë, at least at this point, seems utterly incapable of understanding Melkor’s already vastly-demonstrated evil. Had a big blind spot, it seems he did.


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## Aldarion (Aug 24, 2019)

Olorgando said:


> As I vaguely remember, JRRT in the "Lost Tales" phase was quite specific about a lot of details. He seriously backpedaled from this standpoint in the later development of his mythology, much to the benefit of it (but of course to the annoyance of pedants – I know that feeling at least to a degree). So, this is not author-published canon, but I do remember that quite a bit of what JRRT described of the actions – and more so inactions – of the Valar and Maiar back then often made me roll my eyes (as I’ve posted elsewhere). What seems to have remained of this is Manwë’s apparent naïveté regarding Melkor. I mean, even Tulkas wasn’t buying Melkor’s goody-two-shoes act (or have I strayed into non-canon territory again with this?).
> 
> This practically turns an argument about Sauron’s (one?) weakness in LoTR on its head: there it was said that Sauron cannot imagine what it would be like to be good, only being able to imagine someone seizing the Ring to overthrow him and take his place. Contrasted to that, Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel can very well imagine what bad the Ring mightdo to them despite their best intentions.
> 
> But Manwë, at least at this point, seems utterly incapable of understanding Melkor’s already vastly-demonstrated evil. Had a big blind spot, it seems he did.



I think it was outright pointed out somewhere in the text that Manwe was incapable of understanding evil, and so was not able to predict Melkor's actions.


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## Grond (Aug 27, 2019)

Belthil said:


> They already wrote history through their themes; love, peace, war, etc. , so nothing could be altered... not by them anyway...


Can a flutist in the orchestra understand the inspiration, concept, arrangement, and execution of the entire symphony? I think not. Only Eru understood the entirety of the work.


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## Inziladun (Aug 28, 2019)

Fëanor_7 said:


> After the music of the Ainur, Eru shows them a vision of their creation, and they see 'much of what is to come' (or something similar, can't remember exactly what it says), yet they do not have the foresight to predict fairly major events like Morgoth feigning innocence (though in fairness not all of the Valar are decieved like this) or the slaying of the Trees?


Are you are asking why the _Ainur _were surprised by the vision? Only the _Ainur _that went into the world became the powers, or the _Valar_. There really was no concept of time at that point, and the only thing that was a surprise to the _Ainur_ were the _Children of Ilúvatar. _I do not believe there were many more surprises after they came into the World and found they had to make it. Eru was painting a work that changed according to his desires, but the _Valar_ carried the theme of his work against his desires to his true intentions, his will became free will. And that is everything, creation and destruction.


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## Fëanor_7 (Aug 28, 2019)

Inziladun said:


> Are you are asking why the _Ainur _were surprised by the vision?



Whoops, yeah, my mistake.

Thanks for the above answers, exactly the sort of thing I was looking for.


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## Miguel (Aug 28, 2019)

Inziladun said:


> the only thing that was a surprise to the _Ainur_ were the _Children of Ilúvatar. _I do not believe there were many more surprises after they came into the World and found they had to make it



_Ainulindalë:_


> And some have said that the vision ceased ere the fulfilment of the Dominion of Men and the fading of the Firstborn; wherefore, though the Music is over all, the Valar have not seen as with sight the Later Ages or the ending of the World


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