# Who wore the brooch?



## Manwë Súlimo (Feb 8, 2003)

*Brooch from the Barrow*



> He chose for himself from the pile a brooch
> set with blue stones, many-shaded like flax-flowers or the wings of blue
> butterflies. He looked long at it, as if stirred by some memory, shaking his
> head, and saying at last:
> ...



I was just wondering who this brooch belonged too. Me and some of my chums were discussing it and I said maybe it was Firiel wife of Arvedui's. Just my suggestion. Anybody else know who it may have belonged too?


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## Beorn (Feb 8, 2003)

The contents of the barrows were those of the kings buried there....No specific information is given as to whose barrow Frodo & Co. was in...


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## Manwë Súlimo (Feb 9, 2003)

I knew the it is the belongings of the Kings, that is where I got the idea that it was Firiel's. Would I be wrong in this?


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## Turgon (Feb 9, 2003)

Tolkien mentions somewhere that the Barrow in which the hobbits were imprisoned probably belonged to the Last Prince of Cardolan. So more than likely the broach belonged to his wife. Remember the words Merry spoke after being rescued by Bombadil?



> 'The men of Carn Dûm came on us at night, and we were worsted. Ah! The spear in my heart!'



I've always believed that this dream was 'inspired' by the Dead Prince in the barrow, they were _his_ words if you like, spoken through Merry.

*Edit:* I've found the quote - LoTR appendix A. 



> _from 'The North Kingdom and the Dúnedain'_
> 'Some say that the mound in which the Ring-bearer was imprisoned had been the grave of the last prince of Cardolan who fell in the war of 1409.'


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 9, 2003)

Tom seems to remember the lady with undeniable nostalgia. Looks like he had dealings with the folk of Arnor...Could we possibly speculate what Tom's role was in the war with Angmar? Did he offer any assisstance to the Dunedain, and was his little kingdom ever assaulted?


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## Arvedui (Jun 2, 2003)

I was reading The Lord of the Rings the other day, and my curiosity was roused when I read this:


> He chose for himself from the pile a brooch set with blue stones, many-shaded like flax-flowers or the wings of blue butterflies. He looked long at it, as if stirred by some memory, shaking his head, and saying at last:
> 'Here is a pretty toy for Tom and for his lady! *Fair was she who long ago wore this on her shoulder.* Goldberry shall wear it now, and we will not forget her!


_From Fog on the Barrow-downs._ 

Who was she that long ago wore that brooch on her shoulder?


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## Aulë (Jun 2, 2003)

A fair lady 

I don't think that it was ever revealed. It was just saying how the brooch made that wearer look fair, perhaps?
It was said that the Barrow that the 4 Hobbits went into belonged to the last Prince of Cardolan. So it was most likely his wife.


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## Bombadillo (Jan 25, 2004)

*Bombadils memories*



> He chose for himself from the pile a brooch set with blue stones, many-shaded like flax-flowers or the wings of butterflies. He looked long at it, as if stirred froma long memory, shaking his head, and said at last: here is a pretty toy for Tom and and for his lady! Fair was she who long ago wore this on her shoulder.



Who is this girl? any suggestions? maybe a princes of arnor?? and so what was her name?


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## Maeglin (Jan 25, 2004)

I believe it was Luthien, of the famed tale "Of Beren and Luthien." At least...thats the only woman in name that I can think of who would have worn such a thing....I highly doubt it was Celebriant or Nimrodel....so it just leads me to conclude that it was Luthien.


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## Flammifer (Jan 26, 2004)

Hmm...but Luthien never travelled east of the Ered Luin...

I would say, as Bombadillo suggests, that it was an Elf who lived in Arnor. Or perhaps a woman of the Dunedain?

But I think that this line is only used to convey that this thing that Bombadil chose for Goldberry was worthy of her, because originally a "fair lady" had worn it.


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## jimmyboy (Jan 27, 2004)

> But I think that this line is only used to convey that this thing that Bombadil chose for Goldberry was worthy of her, because originally a "fair lady" had worn it.


I totally agree. Reason for this is that it was from a tomb of Arnor, so it only makes sense that the brooch would be that of a female Dunadan. Plus, the elves, being immortal, would not likely use any kind of device as a tomb, since mortality was not a normal part of their existence.

What's interesting is that it seems Tom may have known the woman who owned that brooch. He may been friends with the king and queen of that day, and so was dwelling on some touching memory. Who knows, maybe he was thinking back to the fall of that great kingdom, and how brave and selfless her leaders were.

Interesting subject, for sure.


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## Bombadillo (Jan 27, 2004)

that was my idea also. 
but are there names known of female arnorian? one who is also quite fair?


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## jimmyboy (Jan 28, 2004)

I don't know of any such names. If there are any they will likely be found in some story in _Unfinished Tales_, or some HOME story about Isildur and Anarion.


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## Niniel (Jan 28, 2004)

I'm sure there has been a thread about this earlier, and someone gave a quite reasonable explanation. I just can't find the thread... does someone know where to find it?


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## Inderjit S (Jan 28, 2004)

I think it was a Arnorian princess or woman. Some of the people of Cardolan fled into the Old Forest when they were over-run by the W-K's armies. The Barrow-Wights first came into the downs about this time too. They seem to be legendary, as Elrond says, they have heard many tales about them.


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## Huan the Hound (Jan 28, 2004)

I don't think we should rule out any Elf maiden like Luthien simply because she never traveled as far east as the pendant was found. Ultimately this pendant might have made its way all over ME, even to Numenor and back! I would be very interested to see if there is mention of a blue pendant in any of the U.T.s or the Silm... Just a thought. 

Something about the language of the quote makes me think that Bombadil is thinking of something from VERY LONG ago. 

Hey what was the name of Thingol's wife? Melian? Maybe it was her's!


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## Dáin Ironfoot I (Jan 29, 2004)

No... you're thinking too deep. The brooch was worn by a woman of Arnor, simply put. Of course you can think it was worn by some Maia or Elf maid, but in all practicality, it was worn by an Arnorian woman. 

Of course... the quote _is_ open to interpretation. But sometimes the simplest solution is the true one.


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## Arvedui (Jan 29, 2004)

That brooch have been questioned before, and it seems as if the closest possible wearer was the wife of the last Prince of Cardolan, as it is indicated that the Barrow in which the Hobbits were imprisoned was the grave of the last Prince.


Niniel, the thread can be found here: http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?t=11972


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## Inderjit S (Jan 29, 2004)

The Barrow-Wight's den was full of Arnorian items, not Elvish. If the pedant had passed down from Lúthien or Melian then it would have been a great heirloom esp. if it has passed down from Númenórean kings or lords a.l.a the Elendilmir, Ring of Barahir etc.

One can presume from Elrond's words that Bombadil had wondered around Eriador quite a bit. Gandalf states that Bombadil had withdrawn into his own territory. People like the Dwarves and Elves are acquainted with him and some men (i.e. Aragorn who refers to him as 'old Bombadil') know of him, as do some Hobbits of Buckland or it's surrounding area. (i.e. Farmer Maggot. 'The Adventures of Tom Bombadil deal more with such matters.)

But we never get any accounts of him passing into Beleriand. He watched the Elves march into Beleriand, he watched the Hobbits march into 'The Shire'. Of course he may or may not have been to Beleriand but it _highly_ doubtful as to whether Lúthien had wandered into Eriador at any given point. One interesting conclusion that you can come up with is that it was a pendant of Lúthien which Daeron, had for some reason kept. Daeron is noted as having wandered looking for Lúthien and have ended up in lands outside Beleriand. In one of Tolkien's ideas, Celebrimbor is a descendant of Daeron. ('Of Dwarves and Men' 'HoME 12) and so Daeron may have met Tom Bombadil in Eriador or elsewhere and given him the pendant for some reason. 

But it seems by Tom's words that he knew the lady. Maybe he came with Melian when she came to Middle-Earth and left her soon after? But Melian was not in Middle-Earth from the beginning (unlike Bombadil, Melian came to Middle-Earth close to kindling of the stars and the awakening of the Elves but Tom seems to have been there long before that) and Melian is never attributed with having companions.

'Logic' in it's proper sense may not be the same here as it is in Middle-Earth, but looking at it logically one can only conclude that it belonged to a Arnorian woman, without delving into some kind of pseudo-mystery (wo)man hunt through the history of Arda. 

The fall of Arthedain was some time before the events of the WoTR. The 'Heirs of Elendil' (HoME 12) gives the movement of the people of Cardolan into the Old Forest and it's surrounding area as sometime close to T.A 1409, 1,700 or so years before the WoTR and that is a _long_ time. Bombadil refers to the fall of Arnor as a long time ago, so I see no reason as to why he cannot have been referring to the Arnorian woman and her pendant as being a 'long time ago'.


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## Lantarion (Jan 30, 2004)

Great reasoning Inder, I love reading these long and partly speculatory posts. Thank you. 

I actually like the idea of the owner of the brooch remaining nameless..
Or perhaps this would be a good little project for any skilled writers around here! Sort of an intelligently deduced fanfic.


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## Khazad (Jan 31, 2004)

Those princes used to have many wars against each others and most probably Tom could not understand mens desire to possess and rule. Mayby he remebered her, innocent women who was slaugtered because of useless urge to possess, and Tom remebred her and decided it was a worthy gift. 

Still, no elven I think.


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## Inderjit S (Jan 31, 2004)

It seem to be wholly overlooked, apart from the side-note by Tolkien.

A part of the Dúnedain of Cardolan most probably would have merged themselves with their counterparts in Arthedain, (note 'faithful Dúnedain' some may have switched sides, such treacheries have happened before, as Elrond states) and some of them may have eventually left the Old Forest to join their counterparts in Lindon. 

And though Angmar was subdued by Elves from Lindon, Lothlórien and Rivendell but during the reign of Argeleb II (Araphor's son) the great plague had ravaged the remnants of the Dúnedain of Cardolan.

Major deforestation? Given the aggressive nature of the trees in the old forest and their possible friendship with Bombadil it is doubtful as to whether they would or would need to deforest the Old Forest. Although the Northmen de-forested a lot of Eastern Mirkwood (East Bight) a lot of men could live in forests without the need to deforest them.

Khazad-Bombadil seems to understand Old Man Willow's purpouse's pretty well.


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## Khazad (Jan 31, 2004)

Oh yes he can understand it. My meaning was that Tom did not have those desires, that does not rule out he could not understand them. Hmmm, have to write more clearly.


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## Lantarion (Feb 2, 2004)

This may be a little off-topic, but I have decided to draw and colour my representation of this jewelled brooch that Tom finds.. I haven't even started it yet though, and it'll take a while because I have other stuff to do.. 
Just thought I'd let you know.  I'll put a link here when it's done and uploaded.


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## Bombadillo (Feb 3, 2004)

I love to see that!


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