# Balrogs



## the old took (Feb 23, 2003)

I think balrogs are very cool but i'm wondering. How do you kill them without using some sort of magic to aid you?


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## Sirion (Feb 23, 2003)

Two balrogs (and possibly more) were killed in the fall of Gondolin. One was drowned in a deep fountain by Echthelion, another was fell to his doom with Glorfindel. It seems balrogs are vulnerable to physical attacks, just less so than mortal beings.


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## Mithlond (Feb 23, 2003)

Let's not forget the Balrog that fell to the hands of Gandalf atop Durin's tower.


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## Mr. Underhill (Feb 24, 2003)

Apparently many Balrogs fell at Gondolin since Tolkien wrote " ... and the number of Balrogs that perished was a marvel and dread to the hosts of Melko, for ere that day never had any of the Balrogs been slain by the hand of Elves or Men." They were destroyed by Sword, Mace, and even their own Whips were used against them.


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## Sirion (Feb 24, 2003)

By the fall of gondolin in the book of lost tales, there appears to have been several hundreds if not thousands of balrogs. However, I believe the figure was revised down to no more than 10 in later years of Tolkien's life.


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## Gwindor (Mar 15, 2003)

I think it's said precisely that there were only 6 balrogs and Gothmog - their lord - that gives 7 to enter our world.


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## Gothmog (May 7, 2003)

In fact Tolkien himself said later of the number of Balrogs in ME that it should be 3 or at most 7. This was his last recorded view on the subject.

(The Three would have been Gothmog, Glorfindel's bane and Durin's bane. The higher number could have allowed for some link to the older stories.)


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## krash8765 (May 8, 2003)

how could one balrog take on the entire kingdom of moria? Could not the dwarves round up their armies and attack it all at once? Is it just because no one had the guts?


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## Legolas3363 (May 8, 2003)

i just thought they woke him up by digging to deep so right then you would tthink he wouldve wiped out a far number of the dwarves


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## Gothmog (May 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by krash8765 _
> *how could one balrog take on the entire kingdom of moria? Could not the dwarves round up their armies and attack it all at once? Is it just because no one had the guts? *


 At a rough guess I would say because the Balrog had killed Durin King of Khazad-dum. This no doubt threw the dwarves of the kingdom into confusion for long enough to allow the Balrog to take control of the Dwarrow-delf and drive out the survivors. After that the orcs moved in.


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## Turin (May 9, 2003)

If three of the balrogs were slain, then what happened to the other four?


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## Celebthôl (May 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by krash8765 _
> *how could one balrog take on the entire kingdom of moria? Could not the dwarves round up their armies and attack it all at once? Is it just because no one had the guts? *



Well Dwarves were no where near as good battlers in later days as the Elves of Gondolin were, although they provided amazing defences against fire with their well forged fire proof armour, they had none of this when and after the Moria Balrog was discovered...


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## Ithrynluin (May 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Celebthôl _
> *although they provided amazing defences against fire with their well forged fire proof armour, they had none of this when and after the Moria Balrog was discovered... *



Why do you say that? Many of the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost fled to Moria at the end of the 1st Age and boosted its population. They would have retained the knowledge of crafting fine weaponry IMO.

From _LOTR; Appendix B_:



> After the end of the First Age the power and wealth of Khazad-dûm was much increased; for it was enriched by many people and much lore and craft when the ancient cities of Nogrod and Belegost in the Blue Mountains were ruined at the breaking of Thangorodrim. The power of Moria endured throughout the Dark Years and the dominion of Sauron, for though Eregion was destroyed and the gates of Moria were shut, the halls of Khazad-dûm were too deep and strong and filled with a people too numerous and valiant for Sauron to conquer from without. Thus its wealth remained long unravished, though its people began to dwindle.





> _Originally posted by turin56 _
> *If three of the balrogs were slain, then what happened to the other four? *



I would think they either perished in the War of Wrath or went into hiding much like the Moria Balrog did. I think the former is more likely though.


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## Lantarion (May 10, 2003)

Hmm, I had always assumed that Melkor had hundreds, if not thousands of Balrogs at his service.. The way they are described in the Dagor Bragollach seems to indicate that there are more than just seven, or less. Perhaps that figure meant all of the balrogs explicitly mentioned by Tolkien?


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## Gothmog (May 10, 2003)

No the figure of 3 or at most 7 was Tolkien changing his mind about how many Balrogs should to be in ME. At first he had a host of these but later thought that it should be a far lower number. As for the number "explicitly mentioned by Tolkien" this is only the 3. But Tolkien at this point gives an upper number of 7.

The Dagor Bragollach and the rest of the stories had already been written long before Tolkien's change of mind. Therefore it can cause some confusion because they had not been revised to suit this view.


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## Celebthôl (May 10, 2003)

Well isnt/wasnt there a Balrog in Barad-dur, the mightest in ME since Gothmog?


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## Inderjit S (May 10, 2003)

> Well isnt/wasnt there a Balrog in Barad-dur, the mightest in ME since Gothmog?



Thats a joke right?


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## Celebthôl (May 10, 2003)

Nay, it was written somewhere im sure...


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## Inderjit S (May 10, 2003)

> Nay, it was written somewhere im sure...



No. Unless your refering to the rought draftings of LoTR in HoME 7 in which Galadriel at one point says that the Balrog of Khazad-dum had come from Barad-dur, but this idea was latter dropped and he is never said to be most powerful.


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## BlackCaptain (May 10, 2003)

Durin's Bane, I think, is just any other balrog; Who just happened to play a major role in the books


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## Lantarion (May 11, 2003)

From the Silmarillion, 'Valaquenta':


> But [Melkor] was not alone. For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treachorous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the balrogs, demons of terror.


Of these "many Maiar", I would assume that most of them were Balrogs; unless Tolkien somewhere tells us what the other Maiar 'converted' into darkness were?

From the Silmarillion, 'Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor'


> And in Utumno [Melkor] gathered his demons about him, those spirits who first adhered to him in the days of his splendour, and became most like him in his corruption: their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them; they had whips of flame. Balrogs they were named in Middle-earth in later days.


"Gathered his demons about him" certainly sounds like there would be more than just three..

There are many other occasions where Tolkien describes a 'host' of Balrogs, not a few individual ones. If those were all a mistake, I think it si an enormous one, which Christopher Tolkien has hopefully described somewhere! 
It makes more sense to have there be many hundreds of Balrogs than just seven! What about all the other Maiar who went with Melkor?


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## Inderjit S (May 11, 2003)

Yes Lantarion, there WAS host's of Balrog's in the Silmarillion-BUT Tolkien said this needed revising. So that there were no more but 3-7. C.T had to use the notes given to him when compiling the Silmarillion, excepct for in extreme cases such as the 'Fall of Doriath' and The War of Wrath etc.


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## Ithrynluin (May 11, 2003)

The figure 7 works perfectly for me. I would think that the Balrogs were more than just cannon fodder, and were more irreplacable and precious...that is why I like a smaller number of Balrogs.


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## Lantarion (May 11, 2003)

Yes, I agree; but I did say "thousands" not "millions". Tolkien uses Orcs as 'cannon fodder' in the LotR (and yes in the Sil too), and although they are used many times in the Wars of Beleriand I think he emphasized their might and power enough for the reader to understand that they weren't just another adversary for Fëanor or Aragorn or anybody to cut down; they were Maiar, after all. 
Hmm, but I wonder how the Dagor Bragollach would have went for Melkor without the Balrogs - in the revised version I mean..


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## Celebthôl (May 11, 2003)

well surely it all depends on the actual size of them, i mean it is never written how big they actually are, if they are massive like in the film then there would be a small number id say around 10, but if they are as the book descibes resemblant to Men then they would be around 6 foot although this is hard to comprehend it is a fact none the less, so there would be a fair few if they are Men hight....


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## Ithrynluin (May 11, 2003)

Celebthol - please elaborate.

Why would the total number of Balrogs dependent on their height?

Also, I think I read somewhere that Balrogs were twice as tall as Elves. Which means about 12-14 feet...(Galadriel and Celeborn were 6'4 and it is said they were VERY tall, though there are exceptions of course - e.g. Thingol, who is said to have been the tallest of the Children of Iluvatar).


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## Celebthôl (May 11, 2003)

well in the film it was closer to 20 feet+ and it they were that tall then 7 would be adaquate, though if they were only say 14 feet, then a lot would be more adaquate and if they were only about 6 feet then many more would be needed (thats all i meant) by the way if this made no sence its coz i am 100% shattered and i need sleep...


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## Lantarion (May 12, 2003)

I still don't see why their height is of any significance.. 

But I would rather have the Balrogs be closer to 'titanic' staure than human-sized, because they are scarier that way. *growr*


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## Celebthôl (May 12, 2003)

well whats more terrifying: 7 man sized fire deamons? or 7 house sized fire deamons?

so about 50ish Man sized fire deamons seems more realistic for that size, but about 10 house sized one is realistic for that size


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## Ithrynluin (May 12, 2003)

Height does not equal power. A Maia is a Maia no matter what form it takes, or how tall. According to your logic, Gandalf is a wimp! 
I am satisfied with the number of Balrogs being 7, and their height 12-14 feet, which is menacing enough for a lowly 6 foot person like myself.


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## Firawyn (Jun 10, 2003)

I've heard people argue about weather belrogs have wings or not. I am watching the Fellowship of the Ring RIGHT NOW......and the belrog in Moria HAS wings.


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## Ithrynluin (Jun 10, 2003)

[sarcasm]Oh wow really???? So we finally have an answer to that? Afterall, PJ's word is superior to J.R.R.T's. [/sarcasm]


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## Turin (Jun 10, 2003)

I was just about to say that and then a big thunderstorm came up and I had to turn off the computer


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## Firawyn (Jun 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *[sarcasm]Oh wow really???? So we finally have an answer to that? Afterall, PJ's word is superior to J.R.R.T's. [/sarcasm]
> 
> *



So are you(in your own crazy way)saying that PJ made the belrog wing thing up? And that Tolkien says they dont? Dont get me wrong, I love bashing PJ and unless belrogs are related to penguines, why didn't it fly up when it fell in Moria?


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## Ithrynluin (Jun 11, 2003)

What I'm saying is that PJ simply portrayed the Balrog the way he imagined it to be. It could be right, and it could be wrong. There'll never be a definite answer to this question.



> why didn't it fly up when it fell in Moria?



*If* the Balrog indeed had wings, I'd say it was far too exhausted from its confrontation with Gandalf, to use the wings. You might as well say - why didn't Gandalf simply climb back up but instead let go and abandoned the Fellowship...same thing here IMO.


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## HelplessModAddi (Jun 16, 2003)

My idea is that there were a small number (7-10) of "real" Balrogs, super demon guys, and then there were "lesser" Balrogs, still scary, but not as powerful or noteworthy. Durin's Bane and Glorfindel's Bane would be of the Super Balrogs.


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