# Goldberry



## Maeglin (Dec 31, 2002)

We always debate who or what Tom Bombadil is, but in all of this we never pay any attention to Goldberry. What exactly is she? We never really find out for sure do we? All we know is that she is called the "river-daughter", thats not much information. Is she human? I doubt that. So here's the great mystery, is she Elf, Maia, or whatever Tom B. might be?


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## Confusticated (Dec 31, 2002)

Here is a debate that Grond and Ancalagon had awhile back about Goldberry being a maia or not


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## redline2200 (Jan 1, 2003)

That is a really long debate. And I thought I knew alot about the Lord of the Rings!


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## Bombadillo (Jan 2, 2003)

as far as I know something about tolkiens work, is goldberry a maia, I'm quite sure of that, only I don't know any quotes to support this


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## BlackCaptain (Jan 2, 2003)

http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm go there, and it should be a page about Goldberry. There is pretty much nothing told about her in any book, and it is only safe to assume she is a Maiar, since she is obviously not mortal


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## BlackCaptain (Jan 2, 2003)

nevermind, bad link, or wrong link. Just go there and use the little thing on the side and search for her name, and u should get the little information that is available


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## Gothmog (Jan 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MorgulKing _
> * There is pretty much nothing told about her in any book, and it is only safe to assume she is a Maiar, since she is obviously not mortal *


 May I ask why it is Safe to assume such a thing? since the Author went to great pains to not say anything certain about the origins of Tom and Goldberry? (Other than that Tom was and should remain an enigma that is.)


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## Bombadillo (Jan 3, 2003)

in tjhe adventures of tom bombadil, tom meets goldberry for the first time, she lives together with her mother IN the river withywindle, she almost drowned him there! 
i haven't heard of any other talking being than a maiar who could live underwater (exept the valar ofcourse)


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## BlackCaptain (Jan 3, 2003)

Well i say its safe to assume that, cuz she OBVIOUSLY isnt a mortal, or an elf, or dwarf, or watever. She's a spirit, or something of that kind, and make no mistake. My point is, she aint normal, and the best description we could give her, is shes a MAiar


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## Gothmog (Jan 4, 2003)

MorgulKing, in terms of Tolkien's world of Arda we find the following things:

Ainur - the Offspring of the thought of Iluvatar = Normal.
Valar - Powerful Ainur who came to Arda = Normal.
Maiar - Less Powerful Ainur who came to Arda = Normal.
Ents - Spirits who were called Yavanna = Normal.
Eagles - Ditto.
Elves - Children of Iluvatar, immortal = Normal.
Men - Children of Iluvatar, mortal = Normal.
Dwarves - adopted Children of Iluvatar, mortal = Normal.
Tom Bombadil - Enigma = Not Normal.
Goldberry - Enigma = Not Normal.

So if your point is that Goldberry is Not Normal (with which I agree), How could it be Safe to assume that she is a Maia?


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## Lantarion (Jan 4, 2003)

But what makes you say that Goldberry isn't a Maia? It isn't explicitly stated anywhere that she isn't.
MorgulKing, I think Goldberry would be at least mentioned in the _Valaquenta_ or _Ainulindalë_, or otherwise in the Silmarillion, had she been a Maia. Every Ainu mentioned in the LotR is mentioned in the Sil´; and don't say Tom B., because he probably isn't a Maia at all.


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## Great Khan (Jan 5, 2003)

*Tom Bombadil and Goldberry*

I know whether tom bombadil and goldberry are maia's or not has been argued again and again and again. However i haven't seen anyone quote this peice of evidence which to me clearly states they were Maia (my brother wasn't so convinced)



> The Ainur who entered Arda are divided into two orders.The Valar and the Maiar - the gods and the demi-gods. The Valar numbered fifteen: Manwe, Varda ,Ulmo, Nienna, Aule, Yavanna, Orome, Vana, Mandos, Vaire, Lorien, Este, Tulkas, Nessa and Melkor later named Morgoth, the dark enemy. Of the Maiar there were a multitude but only a few of these immortals are named in Tolkien's chronicles: Eonwe, Ilmare, Osse, Uinen, Melian, Arien, Tilion, Sauron, Gothmog, Thuringwethil, Ungoliant, Dragluin, Goldberry, Iarwain Ben-adar (Tom Bombadil) and the five wizards - Olorin (Gandalf), Curunir (Saruman), Aiwendil, (Radagast), Alatar, and Pallando





Later on it says this about Tom Bombadil



> Tom Bombadil - Maia master of the Old Forest. Tom Bombadil was the eccentric master of the Old Forest. Called Iarwain Ben-adar, which means both "old" and "without father", by the elves, he was probably a Maia spirit that came to Middle-earth in the ages of starlight. By the Dwarves he was called Forn, while men knew him as Orald. He was a very strange and merry spirit. He was a short stout man, with blue eyes, a red face and a brown beard. He wore a blue coat, a tall battered hat with a blue feather, and yellow boots. Always singing or speaking in fhymes, he seemeda nonsensical being, yet withi the Old Forest his power was absolute, and no evil was strong enough to touch him. His spouse was Goldberry the River-Daughter.



Both quotes are from _Tolkien, The Illustrated Encyclopedia by David Day and Mitchell Beazley_


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## Lantarion (Jan 5, 2003)

Ugh, I know of that book, and I can honestly say that Mr. Day has got at least a few screws loose to actually print that garbage. Tolkien himself never EVER stated ANYWHERE whether Tom or Goldberry were Maiar or not! I'm not saying it isn't possible, but David Day's assumptions are infamous. 
Thanks though, I had forgotten about the Illustrated Encyclopedia (even if it's 80% bs).


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## BlackCaptain (Jan 5, 2003)

HA! I told all of you that Tom and Goldberry were Maiar, but nooo... I said it was safe to assume, but u said its not... I stand un-corrected... THANK YUO GREAT KHAN!!! 

I have another encyclopedia by david day, and i too posted a quote in another section i think...


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## elf boy (Jan 5, 2003)

Tolkien himself in a quote I saw in an earlier debate about this pretty much said that Tom Bombadil was... a Tom Bombadil. Thaz extremely paraphrased, but thaz what I got outta it. If the book isn't written by Tolkien, sadly, it's just their guess that they want everyone to take for fact...


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## Gothmog (Jan 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lantarion _
> *But what makes you say that Goldberry isn't a Maia? It isn't explicitly stated anywhere that she isn't.
> *


 I seem to be the one this question is directed at, so can you tell me just where it is that I have said that Goldberry is Not a Maia?

I have questioned the statement that it is "Safe to Assume that she is a Maia". As there is no information about this either for or against, it is not safe to Assume anything. Each must make up his/her own mind.

In reference to David Day's work.

David Day had nothing to do with the writing of any of JRR Tolkien's stories and therefore bases his view on his readings. His views are only that. His Views. Even C Tolkien cannot give a definitive answer to the question of Tom and Golberry. How then can Mr. Day have so much more ability in this matter?

It is for each reader to make his/her own mind up after being guided through Middle-earth by Tolkien himself. The various books written about the work by others are no more valid than your own views. (They just get paid to give theirs.  )


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## BlackCaptain (Jan 6, 2003)

People, think.

What else could Goldberry be?

-Man, no
-Elf, very slightly possibly
-Dwarf, no 
-Ent, no
-Dragon, no
-Balrog, no
-Spirit, quite possiibly.


If you can think of something else, name it. But otherwise, our best bet would be to assume she is a Maiar. Why? Because what else could she be?


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## Gothmog (Jan 6, 2003)

What else could Goldberry be?

As Tolkien said about Tom. * An Enigma.*

You can make up your own mind about it, but in simply making an assumption you are ignoring Tolkiens own view on the matter.


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## Lantarion (Jan 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Gothmog_
> I seem to be the one this question is directed at, so can you tell me just where it is that I have said that Goldberry is Not a Maia?


Well I assumed that by calling her an Enigma, you were saying that she was not anything else.


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## Dhôn-Buri-Dhôn (Jan 6, 2003)

Let's explore a couple other possibilities...

1) Goldberry is a naiad. In Greek mythology, a naiad is a water-spirit, which meshes neatly with the one description Tolkien gives us (River-daughter). While there's no explicit mention of naiads and other such spirits in LotR, we do have Ents and Huorns, which are quite similar to dryads (tree-spirits).

2) Goldberry is an Entwife. Okay, quit screaming, it's just a fun idea! And why not? We know the Entwives may have gone that way; at least, Treebeard was curious about the Old Forest. We don't know exactly what the Entwives looked like, so maybe they're more human-looking than Ents -- after all, there are lots of species in the real world with very different-looking males and females. Goldberry's mother was around when she met Bombadil, which sounds like a problem if there were no Ents handy, but Mom may have been preggers when she left. And finally, think of Treebeard's love of water, and the great draughts he took; I imagine he might consider living in a river to be something of a holiday.

Okay, I've got my helmet on, fire away!


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## Gothmog (Jan 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lantarion _
> *Well I assumed that by calling her an Enigma, you were saying that she was not anything else. *


 Before Assuming such a thing, first tell me what an Enigma Is....

And it is Tolkien's view that Tom and conected matters were and were to remain an Enigma.


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## BlackCaptain (Jan 9, 2003)

I have the answer! From _In the House of Tom Bombadil_ , third paragraph:



> They came a few timid steps further into the room, and began to bow low, feeling strangely surprised and awkward, like folk that, knocking at a cottage door to beg for a drink of water, have been answered by a fair young ELF-QUEEN clad in living flowers.



Now this doesnt exactly mean that she is an elf queen, cuz it says "Like folk that". But i think that this is a good quote to help us solve this problem...But then after that she says:



> I am Goldberry, daughter of the River.



And River was capatalized in the book, but that probly doesnt mean anything... But this could mean that she is a Maiar, maybey offspring of Ulmo er somthin like that... er the same type of Ainur... Iduno, just found 2 good quotes that might be helpful


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## Iluisa Olórin (Jan 9, 2003)

I abhor peoples' seemingly insatiable need to label Tom and Goldberry, convinced that they must be specific creations in the mythology at all.

However, the most convincing argument I have seen to date as to what Tom is, if he must be something, is Gene Hargrove's assertion that Tom is in fact Aulë.

I am comfortable with the idea that Goldberry, "daughter of the River," could indeed be a Maia.


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## Gothmog (Jan 10, 2003)

The only convincing argument that I have seen as to what Tom is comes from JRR Tolkien himself. 

Tom is an Enigma.

All else is speculation and of equal merit.

As to the Quotes about Goldberry, they only show how Tolkien did everything he could to make sure that there was no certain answer to this question. (which gives us something to debate when we can't think of other questions.  )


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## Iluisa Olórin (Jan 10, 2003)

Have you read Gene Hargrove's essay? Do you not find it convincing? In what ways?


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