# The Vanyar: wise or otherwise?



## Confusticated (Jul 8, 2003)

We know the Vanyar were friends of the Noldor in Valinor, and would have dwelt together if not for the Vanyar wishing to live in the light of the trees whereas the Noldor wanted the stars. Now the Vanyar sat in Valinor for hundreds of years knowing that their friends, the Noldor, were in Middle-earth fighting a losing battle, yet they did not go to aid them until Earendil showed up and the Valar decided it was time.

Was this failure for so many years to leave Aman and join the Noldor in Middle-earth done out of wisdom or out of selfishness, cowardice, foolishness or any other bad reasons?


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## Lhunithiliel (Jul 8, 2003)

Hehe, Nom, you have asked a question that is super-loaded with your personal opinion. 

But you are right! IMO, these fellows were all that you call them: "_selfish, egoistic, flat-minded"_ (is there such a word combination?! ) 
IMO, their behaviour is more than irritating. At least I see it this way! And on the other hand.......I wonder........ wasn't that a wise move on behalf of the Valar ? - "devide and rule" (didn't dare to give the Latin version... was not very sure about the endings of the words  )......Who says that the Romans had first said this?

And another question comes to my mind:
All right, they stayed in the light of the trees... and when the trees were gone? 
And what if they stayed close to Manwe and the rest of the Valar?! Oh! They became very highly learned! So??? What's the purpose of knowing very much and not share this knowledge with the others?
Foolish to me it seems (as Yoda might have put it )

So, in other words, I fully agree that it was selfish and egoistic on behalf of the Vanyar to stay away from the turmoil of the events and away from the deeds of their kin.


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## Beleg (Jul 8, 2003)

> *Posted by Nom*
> Now the Vanyar sat in Valinor for hundreds of years knowing that their friends, the Noldor, were in Middle-earth fighting a losing battle,



Wasn't Valinor fenced against all the news from Middle-Earth? 
I don't think that while the wars in Beleriand were going on, the Vanyar or the Tirion Noldo knew about the condition of the Wars in Middle-Earth. 



> *Posted by Nom*
> Was this failure for so many years to leave Aman and join the Noldor in Middle-earth done out of wisdom or out of selfishness, cowardice, foolishness or any other bad reasons?



No I don't think so It was failure. Noldor had afterall, breached The valarian laws and as a result Valar had banned them from their continent. So Noldor were no more then convicts in the eyes of most of the Valar and due to the Vanyar closeness to Valar, the valarian view of the rebellion would have effected Vanyar too. 
Besides I don't know If any news from Beleriand were reaching Aman during the first age, except perhaps the Eagle's of Manwe. 
It wasn't certainly Cowardice, or else they wouldn't have participated in War of Wrath, not foolishness since what Noldor did was foolishness and not anyother bad reason. 
The Vanyar just thought that what Noldor did was horribly wrong.


> *Posted by Lhunithiel*
> All right, they stayed in the light of the trees... and when the trees were gone?



Part of their reason in dwelling on around Tantiquetil and Valmar was because of their love for Valar, or so I think.


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## Confusticated (Jul 8, 2003)

Hey Lhun, who said I think it was not wise? 



> Wasn't Valinor fenced against all the news from Middle-Earth?
> I don't think that while the wars in Beleriand were going on, the Vanyar or the Tirion Noldo knew about the condition of the Wars in Middle-Earth.



But I know you think they knew about the Doom of The Noldor, since you gave that as Amarie's reason for soemthing in another thread.



> Besides I don't know If any news from Beleriand were reaching Aman during the first age, except perhaps the Eagle's of Manwe.



Do you suppose the Vanyar thought the Noldor were getting along very well in Middle-earth?



> No I don't think so It was failure. Noldor had afterall, breached The valarian laws and as a result Valar had banned them from their continent. So Noldor were no more then convicts in the eyes of most of the Valar and due to the Vanyar closeness to Valar, the valarian view of the rebellion would have effected Vanyar too.



Even though Aman was shut against the Noldor, they were still friends, so why not help them?

No more than convicts? Does this mean they were not worthy of aid? 

But this is where it gets interesting:



> It wasn't certainly Cowardice, or else they wouldn't have participated in War of Wrath



Nay. Why did they wait until the Valar gave them permission? Affraid to go against the counsel of the Valar?



> not foolishness since what Noldor did was foolishness and not anyother bad reason.


It was foolish of the Noldor because they returned in such haste. The Vanyar didn't need to do this, they could have taken several years to get there.

Was going to Middle-earth to regain the silmarils and avange Finwe's death, and have their own realms bad reasons? I do not think so.

Would it have been a bad reason for the Vanyar to go help their friends? I do not see how.

The inaction of the Vanyar may not be foolish, but I do not understand your reasons for why it was not.



> The Vanyar just thought that what Noldor did was horribly wrong.



They still cared about the Noldor as friends though, right? I mean, they did go fight for them later. Sure the kinslaying was horribly wrong, but not all of the Noldor did this. What else was horribly wrong... that Feanor went against the Valar's counsel? So what? He's allowed to.


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## Lhunithiliel (Jul 8, 2003)

Fenced?
No news?

Oooooh! No!

Aman was quite well informed on everything going on in ME!
Gods!! They knew it all very well!

But this is not the question. The question is why the Vanyar did nothing fo ages!

Some may call it a wisdom. It might be viewd that way.

_"Why go and fight and experience misfortunes, wars, misery, grief...
We're so cozy and comfortable in here..._

I call it egoism.

You know, when I think about it all...... Don't you just see the reflection of our own society?  

Some - waiting for things to happen while others - *making* thing happen!

Is it wrong to manifest your free will? I think - not! That's why I can not blame the Noldor for disobaying the Valar's orders and no matter how disastrous the result was, I still respect them, starting right from Feanor, for what they did.

And if the Gods AND the Vanyar were not that selfish the result might have been not that disastrous after all!!!


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## Confusticated (Jul 8, 2003)

I think the Vanyar were the Manwe of the Eldalie. They were the holy elves, and I suppose they would not ever go against the Valar. I believe this was probably due to fear of getting on their bad side as it was to any wisdom that might have played a part. Probably wisdom in the form of Manwe letting Ingwe in on some information. But could such fear of getting on the bad side of the Valar be considered cowardice?

Surely the Vanyar did care about the Noldor, just not enough to defy the Valar.

Now suppose the Vanyar had left Valinor... then what? Well they would be shut out, at least for a time, and perhaps they feared that in specific.

Did they just not want to loose the bliss of Valinor or instruction of the Valar?

But as for getting on the bad side of the Valar... just exactly what what be the Vanyar's loss or pain in this? Might they just look up to Manwe and Varda... seeking their aproval in all that they do, and so have feared to have their own feelings hurt by disapointing the Valar? What exactly was so bad about going against the Valar that it overrides their friendship and care for the Noldor?


I do not blame the Noldor either, Lhun. Though the kinslaying was way out of line.



> Some - waiting for things to happen while others - making thing happen!


I think the Vanyar just didn't care if things happend, or didn't even want things to happen. They were content in the light of the trees and probably grew contect again, to still dwell with the Valar. In the published Sil we read that it was because they were content that they did not trust Melkor, though in LQ it says that Ulmo warned them, and the way I read it, he didn't warn the Noldor. But that is a whole 'nother thread.


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## Beleg (Jul 8, 2003)

*Answer*



> *Posted by Nom*
> But I know you think they knew about the Doom of The Noldor, since you gave that as Amarie's reason for soemthing in another thread.



They could have known about it because the Doom of Noldor was pronounced within Aman, and before Finarfin's host retreated.



> *Posted by Nom*
> Do you suppose the Vanyar thought the Noldor were getting along very well in Middle-earth?



Hmm...It seems to me that I was wrong presuming that no news travelled to Aman during the ban....



> *Posted by Nom*
> Even though Aman was shut against the Noldor, they were still friends, so why not help them?



And get themselves meshed up in the doom of Noldor and be eventually destroyed? Everyone who helped Noldor in Beleriand got mixed up in their doom and was harmed a great deal. 
They were friends no doubt but Olwe and the Noldor were more friendlier to eachother due to their close assosiation, and yet Olwe tried to disuade Feanor from going after Morgoth. 



> _Silmarillion, Of the Flight of Noldo_
> 'We renounce no friendship. But it may be the part of a friend to rebuke a friend's folly. And when the Noldor welcomed us and gave us aid, otherwise then you spoke: in the land of Aman we were to dwell for ever, as brothers whose houses stand side by side.



Olwe's words explain it for both Vanyar and Teleri. 
Sure they were friends of Noldor, but It would be great folly to join in the folly of someone, whether be foe or friend. 

And here the main point is that Noldor assention to Middle-Earth was wrong and ruinous. 



> *posted by Nom*
> No more than convicts? Does this mean they were not worthy of aid?



Aid? They were provided with aid enough inform of good council, yet they didn't listen to it. Besides Vanyar, knew because of their own greater wisdom, and the foresite and proclaimanations of Valar knew that the Quest of Noldor was fruitless and ruinous and It would be folly and disaster to join in it. 



> *Posted by Nom*
> Nay. Why did they wait until the Valar gave them permission? Affraid to go against the counsel of the Valar?



Yes, afraid to go against the council of Valar...and their was wisdom in It. Valar were generally more foresited and wise then the Elves and thus could be trusted to make better decisions then the Elves. (Not always the best, but I have used the word generally)



> *Posted by Nom*
> It was foolish of the Noldor because they returned in such haste. The Vanyar didn't need to do this, they could have taken several years to get there.



It was foolish of the Noldor to listen to the lies of Morgoth. It was foolish of the Noldor to listen and believe on Feanor's words. It was foolish of the Noldor to follow Feanor after the Prophecy of Mandos and after the advice/order of Manwe. It was foolish of Feanor to swear such oaths and commit the Kinslaying of Aqualonde, and cause the first battle to happen on Aman. 
And such fair, noble and wise Elves as Vanyar couldn't be thought of backing such toomfoolery. 



> *Posted by Nom*
> Was going to Middle-earth to regain the silmarils and avange Finwe's death, and have their own realms bad reasons?



Remember that It was Feanor that motivated and instigated the flight of the Noldor, and he did that for his own reasons; mainly to regain the Silmaril's. Yet, he was counceled wisely to not commit such an act as to follow Morgoth into Middle-Earth (Because that would be what Morgoth want, coming of Elves to Middle-Earth, his stronghold, where he could easily destroy them.) If Noldor would have waited and would have asked the help of Valar, events would have faishoned better. 



> *Posted by Nom*
> Would it have been a bad reason for the Vanyar to go help their friends? I do not see how.


Well whether you can see it or not, that depends upon you. But I think It is crystal clear. The Noldor were doomed in Beleriand, and the Vanyar knew this too, and to aid them in arms and numbers would have meant destruction. 



> *Posted by Nom*
> The inaction of the Vanyar may not be foolish, but I do not understand your reasons for why it was not.


My reasons are clear enough. 



> *Posted by Lhun*
> You know, when I think about it all...... Don't you just see the reflection of our own society?



Their is somethings called prudence and wisdom. And Vanyar were aware of these. 



> *Posted by Lhun*
> "Why go and fight and experience misfortunes, wars, misery, grief...
> We're so cozy and comfortable in here...



Their is nothing wrong with such attitude, specially if Wars, misfortune, grief is self-inflicted, as was the in the case of Noldor.



> *Posted by Lhun*
> Is it wrong to manifest tour free will? I think - not! That's why I can not blame the Noldor for disobaying the Valar's orders and no matter how disastrous the result was, I still respect them, starting right from Feanor, for what they did.



You might respect them, adore them, I might do the same, we might back the claim of free-will and usage of it but none of these change the fact that what Noldor did was basically wrong, disastrous and uncalled for. 




> *Posted by Lhun*
> And if the Gods AND the Vanyar were not that selfish the result might have been not that disastrous after all!!!



Selfish!!! 
Lhun, care to explain their 'selfishness' in this matter?


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## Confusticated (Jul 8, 2003)

> Well whether you can see it or not, that depends upon you. But I think It is crystal clear. The Noldor were doomed in Beleriand, and the Vanyar knew this too, and to aid them in arms and numbers would have meant destruction.


I said I do not see how aiding their friends is a bad reason to go to Middle-earth, I didn't mean that it was enough reason to overrule all the reasons against going.




> Aid? They were provided with aid enough inform of good council, yet they didn't listen to it.


Yes, but this aid came before the Doom of the Noldor. After this they were in a new situation that would require fresh aid.



> It was foolish of the Noldor to listen to the lies of Morgoth. It was foolish of the Noldor to listen and believe on Feanor's words. It was foolish of the Noldor to follow Feanor after the Prophecy of Mandos and after the advice/order of Manwe. It was foolish of Feanor to swear such oaths and commit the Kinslaying of Aqualonde, and cause the first battle to happen on Aman.
> And such fair, noble and wise Elves as Vanyar couldn't be thought of backing such toomfoolery.



Those foolish things were reasons for the rebellion, and I do not ask why the Vanyar did not take part in this, but why they sat in Aman all those years until Earendil showed up.



> If Noldor would have waited and would have asked the help of Valar, events would have faishoned better.



Right, but once they were doomed the Vanyar did not help them.



> My reasons are clear enough.



They are now...

The Vanyar trusted to the wisdom of the Valar and had much wisdom themselves.

...but you didn't give them in your first post.

I think those could be the reasons too, but I find it hard to swallow... which is why I opened this thread. I am inclined to believe the Vanyar erred in not coming to the aid of the Noldor. But as I said in my last post, they are the holy elves. They did trust the Valar, and were different in nature than the Noldor, they are such that I can't fully understand them.

I try to put myself in their position (with my ways of thinking of course, not theirs since I can not understand it) and I just imagine I would not have trusted to the Valar as much as they did. Because of this, I have little respect for that trust. They punish all the exiles... many of which only went along to aid those who they knew were going into folly. It is admirable that some of the Noldor went wittingly in great danger for the sake of those others who would not be restrained. Why didn't the Valar just aid the Noldor anyhow, regaining the trust of those few who didn't trust them, and forgive those who would repent?

Maybe all the Vanyar could have gone to Middle-earth and things would have turned out just as bad, and maybe even the Vanyar trusted this would be the case, but why not try anyhow? Why not do the sort of thing that Finrod did? How can you bear to sit there while your friends are at war with Morgoth?

But, I have a hard time believing that the Vanyar of Aman arriving in Middle-earth would not have been enough to whoop Morgoth.

Imagine if they came marching over Hilthlum as Fingon's host was heading off to Nirnaeth.

And remember Ulmo's words to Tuor... the walls of doom can be breached.

I find it easier to understand the Vanyar fearing to make the Valar unhappy, than to understand how they would have so much trust that they do not go help their friends.

On the other hand, it might go along with being most holy to trust blindly. I could maybe understand trusting in Eru, but why the Valar.


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## YayGollum (Jul 9, 2003)

Sure, I'd call the Vanyar types wise. Is walking into a disaster wise? Yay for self-preservation, I say!


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## klugiglugus (Jul 13, 2003)

It is possible to be wise and stupid!


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## HelplessModAddi (Jul 18, 2003)

> ...we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-Earth, without provoking him into a frenzy of nihilistic destruction. And in the meanwhile, Men... were raised to their fullest achievable stature, and by the two marriages the transference to them, or infusion into Mankind, of the noblest Elf-strain was accomplished, in readiness for the still distant, but inevitably approaching, days when the Elves would "fade."
> The last intervention with physical force by the Valar, ending in the breaking of Thangorodrim, may then be viewed as not in fact reluctant or even unduly delayed, but timed with precision. The intervention came before the annihilation of the Eldar and the Edain. Morgoth though locally triumphant had neglected most of Middle-Earth during the war; and by it he had in fact been _weakened_... above all in mind. He had become absorbed in "kingship," and though a tyrant of ogre-size and monstrous power, this was a vast fall even from his former wickedness of hate, and his terrible nihilism. He had fallen to _like_ being a tyrant-king with conquered slaves, and vast obedient armies.
> The war was successful, and ruin was limited to the small (if beautiful) region of Beleriand. - 402-403, _Morgoth's Ring_


The Valar had good reason for waiting, as this quote shows. Because Morgoth had such a terrible grip on the physical world, and he desired destruction above all else, enormous material ruin was inevitable whenever he was confronted physically. Unless swiftly successful, any war against Morgoth could result in the decimation of all Middle-earth. The Vanyar's trust in the Valar would thus be justified.


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## Feanorian (Jul 18, 2003)

The converse of Manwë and Eru



> There were many such fëar of Elves who had died in Middle-earth gathered in the Halls of Mandos, but it was not until the death of Míriel in Aman that Manwë appealed directly to Eru for counsel. Eru 'accepted and ratified the position' - though making it plain to Manwë that the Valar should have contested Melkor's domination of Middle-earth far earlier, and that they had lacked estel



from the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth

I think this shows that no they were not wise....unless I have the whole time period wrong from which this quote applies which I dont think I do but I might. If Eru himself says you lack estel...you lack estel.


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## Beleg (Jul 19, 2003)

Yup, You seem to have got the whole time period wrong. 
The Quote concerns a time period which is earlier then the rebellion of Noldor.


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## Feanorian (Jul 19, 2003)

That'll teach me to not use quotes from HOME books I havent read...never trust the sons of Feanor!


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## Gil-Galad (Jul 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lhunithiliel _
> * "selfish, egoistic, flat-minded" (is there such a word combination?! )
> 
> 
> So, in other words, I fully agree that it was selfish and egoistic on behalf of the Vanyar to stay away from the turmoil of the events and away from the deeds of their kin. *


I like these words.
The Vanyar prefered the easy life,they chose to forget everything,to forget what had happened in Valinor.Such decison can be made only by selfish and egoistic persons,who are afraid of losing what they have.


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## Confusticated (Jul 30, 2003)

What your quote does show Feanorian, is that the Valar, even according to Iluvatar were capable of making serious mistakes.

The Noldor knew this.

Did the Vanyar?

If so, why did they trust the Valar as much as they did?

What exactly prevent any of them from saying: 'You know what? Forget this! My friends are dying in Middle-earth and the Valar who failed to stop Morgoth earlier as should have been done, are letting them, and regardless of whether Morgoth will be stopped before he takes over Arda, I am going to aid my friends.'


The problem I have with the Valar leaving Morgoth in Middle-earth to cause ruin during the first age is: What were their plans before the Noldor rebelled? After the darkening of Valinor the Valar did chase Morgoth but he was able to lose them. What were they going to do when they found him? Ask him politely if he would cease being a nihilistic root of all evil and come over to the good side?



> The last intervention with physical force by the Valar, ending in the breaking of Thangorodrim, may then be viewed as not in fact reluctant or even unduly delayed, but timed with precision.


May it really now? Was that the reasoning of the Valar? Let him wear himself out on the people of Middle-earth, and then swoop in and wipe him out?

Then did they know the Noldor would rebel, commit something for which they would be doomed to distruction thereby giving the Valar a reason to allow the Noldor and other people of Middle-earth to fight alone and see defeat?

If this really was the reason of the Valar (and I will argue that it was not) then did the Vanyar know it? And if so, what did they think of this? What did they think of the Valar letting the Noldor and other more innocent people be tormented by Morgoth while they sat in safety? 

Or were the Vanyar a bunch of authority-worthshipping, followers who rather let the Valar do all their thinking for them?

Or was there just something so holy about the Vanyar that is beyond my understanding. Is it a holy thing to not question the Valar?


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## Beleg (Aug 4, 2003)

> Right, but once they were doomed the Vanyar did not help them.



I can agree with this pretty cryptic statement. 



> I think those could be the reasons too, but I find it hard to swallow... which is why I opened this thread. I am inclined to believe the Vanyar erred in not coming to the aid of the Noldor. But as I said in my last post, they are the holy elves. They did trust the Valar, and were different in nature than the Noldor, they are such that I can't fully understand them.



Perhaps you are viewing things from a more Noldorion point of view?  I mean If I were a Noldor, and even If my reasons for leaving weren't entirely justified, and I knew that still I would feel a tiny bit of remorse that my friends didn't help me. 



> I try to put myself in their position (with my ways of thinking of course, not theirs since I can not understand it) and I just imagine I would not have trusted to the Valar as much as they did. Because of this, I have little respect for that trust.


That are your thoughts. They can't be justified, as you yourself admit. 



> They punish all the exiles... many of which only went along to aid those who they knew were going into folly.


The exiles all, willingly accepted their doom, and thus all were equally responsible, with the possible exception of Fëanor and kin. 


> It is admirable that some of the Noldor went wittingly in great danger for the sake of those others who would not be restrained.



It is admirable in the foolish sense. I can see what you are getting at though. You are asking the Vanyar to join the rebels due to basically the same reasons which made some of the least willing Noldor accompany their kinsmen to Middle-Earth. 
The less willing Noldo had more reason to follow the rebels. Firstly, Fëanor and Fingolfin their Kings were going in Exile and they were compelled to follow their lead if they wanted to remain obediant. Secondly the sense of Clan and family is very strong among the Elves, and Noldor would have felt more compelled to join their kinsmen. 


> Why didn't the Valar just aid the Noldor anyhow, regaining the trust of those few who didn't trust them, and forgive those who would repent?


To the Valar was committed overlordship of Arda, and the Elves knew that, which made Elves come under their jurisdiction and the Elves needed to obey their commands. But the Elves choose to ignore them and disobeyed the Valar. And even then you expect the Valar to help those who disobeyed them and broke friendship with them. Because Manwë forced [by power] none to turn back. In the doom of Noldor Valar had no part. The Valar basically left the rebel's alone, because it was Fëanor who so proudly had claimed that Elves would be better off without the help of Valar. And you still expect them to help Fëanor and those who followed him? The Valar were just in their treatment of the exiles, not perhaps entirely correct, but just. 
Their are a few other factors too, like Valar helping the rebels would mean that the Valar have overlooked the terrible crime, the first kinslaying. 


> Maybe all the Vanyar could have gone to Middle-earth and things would have turned out just as bad, and maybe even the Vanyar trusted this would be the case, but why not try anyhow?


Because trying would yeild nothing except destruction of the noble and fair Vanyar. 


> Why not do the sort of thing that Finrod did? How can you bear to sit there while your friends are at war with Morgoth?


That's taking friendship to extreme and on the fringe of insanity. You won't except a Vanyar to jump in something which is not only unlawful but cursed too. 
The* Shibboleth of Fëanor* tells us about the reasons of Finrod.


> Finrod was like his father in his fair face and golden hair, and also in noble and generous heart, though he had the high courage of the Ñoldor and in his youth their eagerness and unrest*; and he had also from his Telerin mother a love of the sea and dreams of far lands that he had never seen*.





> She was proud, strong, and self-willed, as were all the descendants of Finwë save Finarfin; and like her brother *Finrod, of all her kin the nearest to her heart, she had dreams of far lands and dominions that might be her own to order* as she would without tutelage


Thus dominon of lands was also a reason behind Finrod's reason of departure. 
I hardly think the example of Finrod jumping in with all these haughty princes is a lesson in Wisdom. 


> But, I have a hard time believing that the Vanyar of Aman arriving in Middle-earth would not have been enough to whoop Morgoth.


And I have a hard time believeing that it would have done any good. Becuase you see, if the battle were to be won by number and in fight, then the Noldor with the aid of Sindar and allies would have defeated Morgoth, [seeing that only the treachery of men kept them from winning Nirnaeth]Morgoth would never be overcome, that is gates of Thongrodium broken and Morgoth captured. Victory would still have eluded them, which wasn't possible without the intervention of Ainur. 


> Imagine if they came marching over Hilthlum as Fingon's host was heading off to Nirnaeth.


A fanfic is in order-right? 
I would have loved it but guess Tolkien is not the one to care much about dramatic twists. 



> And remember Ulmo's words to Tuor... the walls of doom can be breached.


To what extent?


> On the other hand, it might go along with being most holy to trust blindly. I could maybe understand trusting in Eru, but why the Valar.


Because with all their fault, Valar are more wise and powerful then me or you. 
Oh and as for the Passage from *Myths Transformed* ModAddi showed, the reasons showed their indeed present Valar as possessing no love for either Eldar or Atani. That's characteristic of Valar is more Eru like if you ask me, coldness personified. 


> *Posted by Gil-Galad*The Vanyar prefered the easy life,they chose to forget everything,to forget what had happened in Valinor.Such decison can be made only by selfish and egoistic persons,who are afraid of losing what they have.


I am afraid Gil-galad, but this has to be one of the most boisterous and unwarranted statements I have read in a while. 
Guess your enthusiasm got the better of you. Forget what? What exactly had happened in Valinor? The slaying of the two trees, but Vanyar lamented for their loss more then Noldor. So you think because Vanyar were wise, had care for their families and had the sense of choosing between right and wrong and trying to avoid the influence of Arda marred, makes them selfish and egoistic persons who are afraid of losing what they have? I find this pretty strange. 


> *Posted by Nom*The Noldor knew this.
> 
> Did the Vanyar?


Why wouldn't they know? The Vanyar had been graced with a mind by Eru and I am sure they had enough mental capabilites to assertain certain faults of Valar. 


> *Posted by Nom*
> If so, why did they trust the Valar as much as they did?


They did this because they also knew that Valar were being made, in relative powers of incarnate body and more, greater then the Children of Eru and thus were more wise then them. If you look objectively, the Valar had done a whole lot for the Eldar. They had made war upon Morgoth just to ensure that the Eldar Children could be saved from the shadow. That in itself was enough for the Vanyar to merit great trust of Valar. 



> *Posted by Nom*What exactly prevent any of them from saying: 'You know what? Forget this! My friends are dying in Middle-earth and the Valar who failed to stop Morgoth earlier as should have been done, are letting them, and regardless of whether Morgoth will be stopped before he takes over Arda, I am going to aid my friends.'



This matter is being discussed in a debate so I'll refrain from making any comments right now. 


> *Posted by Nom*The problem I have with the Valar leaving Morgoth in Middle-earth to cause ruin during the first age is: What were their plans before the Noldor rebelled? After the darkening of Valinor the Valar did chase Morgoth but he was able to lose them. What were they going to do when they found him? Ask him politely if he would cease being a nihilistic root of all evil and come over to the good side?


What they did afterwards, execute his incarnate self and banish him to the void. 



> *Posted by Nom*
> May it really now? Was that the reasoning of the Valar? Let him wear himself out on the people of Middle-earth, and then swoop in and wipe him out?



_Note_:Nóm is refering to the passage ModAddi Posted. 
I don't agree with this reasoning and I am not rooting for it.


> *Posted by Nóm*
> Or were the Vanyar a bunch of authority-worthshipping, followers who rather let the Valar do all their thinking for them?


Nothing of that sort! Were you in a bad mode when you wrote this? 



> *Posted by Nóm*Or was there just something so holy about the Vanyar that is beyond my understanding. Is it a holy thing to not question the Valar?


It is 'holy' not to Question the Valar when it is evident that Valar's stand on something is just and warranted.


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## Confusticated (Aug 4, 2003)

> The exiles all, willingly accepted their doom, and thus all were equally responsible, with the possible exception of Fëanor and kin.



Why were the Noldor cursed? If it was for kinslaying then it should have been something that would not punish all of them if it is to be fair.



> You are asking the Vanyar to join the rebels due to basically the same reasons which made some of the least willing Noldor accompany their kinsmen to Middle-Earth.


I am not asking them to, I am wondering why they did not.



> The less willing Noldo had more reason to follow the rebels. Firstly, Fëanor and Fingolfin their Kings were going in Exile and they were compelled to follow their lead if they wanted to remain obediant.



I think you misrepresent Fingolfin here. Fingolfin's people would not forsake him if he would go with them. It seems his people, though not willing to take Feanor as King, wanted to go back to Middle-earth all the same. I think I brought this up in the Flight of the Noldor chapter discussion.
Fingolfin went into exile in part because his people wanted to go, because Fingon urged him, because of his words to Feanor, and some other things, but the point is that his people wanted to go.



> That's taking friendship to extreme and on the fringe of insanity.


But as I asked: How can you bear to sit there while your friends are at war with Morgoth?



> You won't except a Vanyar to jump in something which is not only unlawful but cursed too.


Was it unlawful for the Vanyar to leave Aman?



> Victory would still have eluded them, which wasn't possible without the intervention of Ainur.


Well Morgoth's minions could have been defeated.

Fingolfin seriously wounded Morgoth, why couldn't enough elves slay him? He was just a really big bad guy.



> I would have loved it but guess Tolkien is not the one to care much about dramatic twists.


Huh!?


When I said: "Why not do the sort of thing that Finrod did?" I ment, why not go to Middle-earth and do what good they could. 



> To what extent?


I don't know. 

But if something as drastic as a couple people taking a silmaril from Morgoth's crown could contribute to the end of Morgoth, why not something as drastic and generous as the Vanyar coming to aid the people of Middle-earth of their own free will?



> What they did afterwards, execute his incarnate self and banish him to the void.


But nay, not if you believe the Valar left the Noldor in Middle-earth for those reasons that Tolkien says 'may then be viewed...'

In taking what a said a piece at a time it is getting out of context. I was asking what they planned to do with Morgoth as part of my arguement against the idea that the Valar wittingly left the Noldor and other people in Middle-earth alone against Morgoth with the purpose of letting Morgoth waste his power to the extent that he was weak enough to take down without going into that nilhilistic fit that might have messed up the world.




> Nothing of that sort! Were you in a bad mode when you wrote this?


No, I just like rebels who are justified, and dislike failure to at least question authority.



> It is 'holy' not to Question the Valar when it is evident that Valar's stand on something is just and warranted.


But if it was not evident or belived that the action is just or warranted, then is it okay to question them?

What if the action/inaction was apparantly foolish?

I am leaning more in the direction the Vanyar were inactive out of blind trust and adoration of the Valar rather than out of truly knowing that their aid would not have been of great use. Mostly because I think their aid would have been of great use. I can't see how it would not have been.


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## HelplessModAddi (Aug 8, 2003)

> In taking what a said a piece at a time it is getting out of context. I was asking what they planned to do with Morgoth as part of my arguement against the idea that the Valar wittingly left the Noldor and other people in Middle-earth alone against Morgoth with the purpose of letting Morgoth waste his power to the extent that he was weak enough to take down without going into that nilhilistic fit that might have messed up the world.


I think you are missing the point Nom. Had the Valar immediately made war upon Morgoth, _everyone would have died._ The entire WORLD would have died. And anyway, it wasn't just about Morgoth. It was about the Atanatari. The Valar could not bring them to Aman and teach them the way they did the Eldar. They knew they had to take care of mortal men somehow. So when the Fathers of Men wandered into Beleriand it must have seemed like an excellent opportunity to have Mankind "raised to their fullest achievable stature, and by the two marriages the transference to them, or infusion into Mankind, of the noblest Elf-strain was accomplished, in readiness for the still distant, but inevitably approaching, days when the Elves would 'fade.'" Tolkien said it. If Tolkien says the Valar knew what they were doing, then the Valar _knew what they were doing._ They COULD NOT go to war with Morgoth immediately lest the entire world be destroyed. Everything had to be planned to a nicety. Things would be seriously screwed up had the Vanyar left for Middle-Earth.

But that's not the subject of the discussion, is it? As far as I know Tolkien wrote nothing directly concerning the Vanyar's motivations. So who says the Vanyar didn't question the Valar? Who says Ingwe didn't ascend to the summit of Taniquetil one day and ask Manwe "What the hell are you doing!? Everyone is dying in Middle-Earth! Why aren't you people helping them?" And Manwe would answer. There is a difference between questioning authority and rebelling against it.


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## Confusticated (Aug 8, 2003)

That is not what I ment HelplessModAddi.
I am not saying the world would not have been broken had the Valar fought with Morgoth at the time of the rebellion of the Noldor. I am saying that I find it hard to buy that this was the motivation of the Valar. If they knew they could not fight with Morgoth because his power was still too great, then what were their plans before the Noldor rebellion. Even after the marshaling of the hosts in Tirion, Manwe thought that Feanor would not be able to hold sway over the Noldor. So, what did the Valar think would happen? If it pretty much had to work out the way it did, and I'm not saying it didn't have to, I just ask what were the Valar thinking before? After the darkening the Valar tried to hunt down Morgoth, but if battle with him would have broke the world and Valar knew this then what were they planning to do when they found him? Where they trying to catch him crossing the sea and take him captive there, thinking that a battle at that location would not break the world?

The Valar must have had something in mind if that was their reason. I am aware of the impact that the Noldor in Middle-earth had and that this was a necessary thing, I only question the motives of the Valar.

Yes, Ingwe may have questioned Manwe, in fact I'd bet that he did. But when I say question authority I mean question authority itself not just to question those in authority. I wonder if the Vanyar really understood things or if they just took the Valar's word because it was the Valar's word. And if the Valar did know that the Noldor being at war with Morgoth was needed to wear Morgoth down, what might the Vanyar have thought of this? The whole thing would seem funny to me.


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## Bucky (Aug 15, 2003)

I don't get it......

Q. What did the Vanyar do?

A. Listened to the advice of The Valar.

Was this wise?

Well, considering every leader among The Noldor who left Valinor was dead by the end of the 1st age, with the exception of Galadriel & Maglor (who was a shell of an Elf by then anyway), and the Vanyar still live in bliss, I guess you can say they made the right choice.

The problem wasn't The Vanyar staying in the Blessed Realm, the problem was The Noldor leaving.


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## Confusticated (Aug 15, 2003)

We're not trying to figure out if they made the right choice. Even assuming the choice was right, I want to know why they really made that choice. Was it out of real wisdom and knowledge, or something else.


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## Confusticated (Apr 17, 2005)

Perhaps they are just too different and holy for the likes of me to understand.

I tend to say they should have went after their friends. There were even mariages between the two people, so close kinships! 

I don't think they were afraid of harm coming to them in Middle-earth, but I think they may have trusted the Valar too much.

Anything to add?


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## YayGollum (Apr 17, 2005)

It looks like I didn't have much to add in the first place. Whoops. This looked like it was a pretty fun little discussion. oh well. Let me see here. Why do you keep bringing up the friendship thing? I don't remember such a huge deal being made out of it in anything that I have read. Sure, the two races as wholes living in Valinor might call each other casual friends. They had no reason not to. But then, I see nothing that suggests the titanic affront that you seem so offended by. Maybe I missed some passage? I don't know. Anyways, to other things. Yes, they were very different from us. If my friendship with the crazy Noldor types was so great, I would have been swayed by Feanor and gone with them. If it was more of a ---> "Hm? Noldor types? Yeah, they're cool, I guess. Why do you ask? They're hanging out with Aule and Orome, getting some pointers or something. I'm busy right now with an ecstatic dance made to honor the great Spirit Of Sock Puppet (Manwe). Please excuse me." type of relationship, I would think that they would have been praising Manwe, hear about the decision of many Noldor, hear about their Doom, feel a bit of sympathy, then continue praising, blissfully confident that everything will be alright. It always has been, hasn't it? Ah, Valinor is so nice! Has it gotten a bit dimmer around here? oh well. We can still brainlessly worship!  Ick, I say!


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## Thorondor_ (May 16, 2005)

Manwe has direct access to both Eru and Mandos, and thus his knowledge of things and of the future is greatly enhanced. He is sort of a Master Initiator, and his direct disciples are the Vanyar. Why wouldn't they listen to him? They surely saw the madness in Feanor, and that his pride is a ticket to doom. And in the end, any dead (good) noldor would return to Valinor, so the departure was not a definivite thing. Perhaps the Vanyar were already - literally - sharing Manwe's vision of the things to come..


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## Ingwë (May 17, 2005)

The Vanyar are favourite elves of Manwë and Varda. We know a lot about Manwë and the most important is: he never stop thinking about Arda. He send the Istari to Middle earth to help the People who live there. _At last_ he attacked Melkor in Beleriand. I think '_his'_ elves are like him. But there is something else: it is said that Ingwë never turned back to the Middle earth...


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## Alatar (May 17, 2005)

The vanyar were content, they loved the valar and the Noldor, but if your at the trees weeping and boom " Hi I'm from the noldi, listen the whole eldamar thing, I'ts not working out. We are going to pop over to ME to wage a fruitless war to get some jewls, wanna come? No? Okay the fell free to come over any time." You decide to stay as feanor is already mad(you think) and by the time you change your mind they've gone and slaughtered there other "freinds".Now if thats not motivation to stay away then what is?


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## ingolmo (May 19, 2005)

I agree with Nom, the Vanyar should have gone and helped the Noldor, after all, they had very good relationships with each other. Rather than going to help their friends, they stay in the safety of Valinor. Who cares if Manwe forewarned them not to go, they let their own kinsmen fight and die valiantly, while they just twiddled them thumbs. They showed cowardice in not helping the Noldor, even if Manwe told them not to. And even if they didn't go to join the Noldor and aid them, they should have had a good reason to do so. 
-Ingolmo


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## Arvegil (Jun 8, 2005)

Part of the issue here is how underdeveloped the Vanyar are as literary characters. When all is said and done, what are the Vanyar, really?


I suggest that they have willingly given their independence entirely to the Valar. In essence, they willingly chose to become exclusively Manwe's acolytes. Once their role as those closest to the Valar is established. their decisions become extensions of the will of Manwe.


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## Alatar (Jun 9, 2005)

Personly, i have changed my mind as yaygollum has made me relise that the noldor went to war for revenge for there dead king.
so if all that you have loved is in dark, why not try to fight back instead of letting the higher ups do it?
But maybe look at what the telri said, they though that the valar would save them so the did nothing.



298,299,300. Threehundred posts in three months.


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## baragund (Jun 9, 2005)

This response is based on my initial thoughts. I haven't gone through all of the responses so I apologize if I'm repeating anything.

I have some questions and observations about the original question Nom posed.

1. Is it really correct that the Noldor left Valinor because they "wanted the stars"? My impression is there was the immediate catalyst of wanting to recapture the Silmarils and then there were underlying agendas of wanting lands to rule on their own. One could consider the Vanyar's choice of remaining in Valinor a case of "cooler heads prevailing" that saved them from a lot of grief compared to following some hot-head (Feanor) to pursue a war they had no hope of winning. 

2. Did the Vanyar really know the status of the Noldor? I thought there was no flow of news from Middle-earth to the Vanyar. Manwe, Mandos and Ulmo knew what was going on but I thought they kept it to themselves. I would like to think that if the Vanyar knew what was going on, especially after the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, they would have at least asked the Valar to go help. At least come to Middle-earth to offer the remaining Noldor passage to Valinor.

Given the above, I don't know if one could consider the Vanyar's absence from Middle-earth until the War of Wrath a "failure". Also, they were obeying the wishes of the Valar, their Gods. I think they were smart to remain in Valinor.

There are some other points that come to mind but this is enough to start.


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## Erestor Arcamen (May 10, 2014)

I never thought about this question that much until reading this thread. I think the Vanyar were just as wise from the beginning until they did go and help the Noldor. Here's my reasoning. I know this is a little bit of a different context as Iluvatar was talking to Morgoth about evil, but I think the quote below makes sense in this situation too:



> And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.



I got the above quote, which is from the Silmarillion, from here. Basically it's saying, no matter what Melkor/Morgoth tries to do, it will only increase the glory of Iluvatar. So why didn't the Vanyar come and help the Noldor sooner? After living in Aman for thousands of years, the Vanyar know to trust the Valar and their decisions, they know that the Valar have Middle Earth's best intentions in mind. The Valar would know when the time was right because they trust in Iluvatar. What Iluvatar was saying to Morgoth is true for everyone else too. Everything that happens is part of the plan and is necessary in the thought of Eru. From the busting of the lamps to Gollum not being killed by Bilbo or anyone else, it all worked out in the end exactly how it was supposed to. The same goes for the Vanyar waiting for the right time to aid the Noldor.

So to sum it up, I think the Vanyar were wise, they trusted the Valar and their decisions. They were at peace in Aman and had full faith in the Valar that when the time to do something was right, they would do it. And the primary point though, it was all part of


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## Meisiluosi (Aug 3, 2015)

Sorry for reviving a dead thread but...my 2 cents:

Valar don't strike me as particularly wise. Actually, they kinda suck at their job.
a) They left the work half-done. When Melkor kept giving them trouble, they moved to Aman and stayed there - pretty much leaving the whole damn Middle-earth as a playground for Melkor. Yep, it did occur to them that maybe they should be out there doing their job but hey, it all amounted to pretty half-assed efforts. Given how fast Melkor was dealt with later, they could have probably spared everyone a lot of trouble by acting sooner.
b) When the Firstborn entered the picture, the little problem with Melkor having his fun in Outer Realms became a tad more acute, so they *finally* moved their asses and did something about it. And then, instead of helping the Eldar to settle the Middle-earth and make it flourish (it would have been kind of preferble especially with regards to the Aftercomers), they invited them over to Valinor, basically as pets.
c) When Melkor was again running rampant and having fun, they did very little to stop him, while the Noldor were trying to do their job. When the mortals East of Beleriand who were not lucky enough to run into one of the Eldar suffered under Melkor's heel, the Valar sat in Aman. Well, except for Ulmo who - for a long time - was apparently the only one to actually did try to do *something*. 

I suppose Valar meant well and all that and it might have been part of Eru's plan but that doesn't make many of the decisions made by Valar any less erroneous just as it doesn't make Melkor any less evil; when Fëanor gave them the middle finger, he was *bloody right*, even if his motives were questionable.

Obeying that kind of authority so unconditionally does not make Vanyar wise. It makes them a bunch of musically gifted golden retrievers. :-}


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## Starbrow (Aug 3, 2015)

Obeying that kind of authority so unconditionally does not make Vanyar wise. It makes them a bunch of musically gifted golden retrievers. :-}

I love this line, Meisiluosi.


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## marco vannucci (Jun 9, 2016)

taking into account tolkien's fervent Christian background, I think the most accurate way to approach the behaviour of the Vanyar towards their conterparts in Middle-Earth is to consider the biblic idea of Sin. From the awakening in Cuiviénen the vanyar were the only group of elves that held on to the "word" of the valar straightforwardly, their hearts were the purest in arda, and the eagerness to question the authority of Eru and the Vanlar never arose in them. Men and Elves had the option of chasing whichever path they desired, however, it was made clear by the valar that it was their whish that the eldar should remain in the undaying lands after the malignity of Melkor tranformed Middle-Earth into a corrupt place. In the trade-off between freedom of rulling themselves in an unperfect land and being vassals of the Valar in a peceful place the Vanyar chose the promise of the valar, whereas the Noldor chose to be their own masters in Middle-Earth amidst the many difficulties they were about to find there. I suppose that what drove the Vanyar from not helping the Noldor was that they knew it was Noldor's own bussiness to go to Middle-Earth and suffer there, after all the Noldor knew they were going to find only sorrow there, it was no secret even before the curse of Mandos. The noldor only wanted a bite of the apple, Melkor attracted them there when he stole the Silmarils, and so they went, corrupted by the desire for possession and by picking up Melkors bait. I think that the cunningness of Melkor entered the heart of the noldor. The vanyar were those in which doubt did not appear, so the could decide more cautiously on their future. It seems to me that wisdom is not quite the word here, all the 3 groups were wise and foolish to some degree. It is quite clear then that the vanyar did not intervene because it would diverge from their nature, they just couldnt go against the decision they made when orome summoned them. It is what makes them Vanyar, the ones that would never look behind.


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## CirdanLinweilin (Jun 14, 2016)

The Vanyar are like God's angels in Heaven.

The 3rd of the angels that left, denying the Word of God and his rule, made an extreme choice of will. They are now *fixed* into their choice. So too, are God's faithful angels, they chose to stay with God and are now willingly but consciously fixed into their position, but perhaps fixed isn't the right word for the faithful. They just know the wisest option is to stay with the Source of Wisdom.

Although the Noldor aren't evil, like the fallen angels, they did make an extreme choice of will to leave. The Vanyar I find interesting because they are so much like God's faithful angels who stayed.

Sorry to get overtly religious here, but Marco did point out that Tolkien is a devout Christian, so I'm thinking my analogy here is perhaps what he got inspiration from.

To summarize, the Noldor screwed themselves over with their choice. I don't blame them, but they let "sin" take them way too far and way over the line. Anger does that.

The Vanyar knew from their position to their Gods and their wisdom that staying is the absolute wisest option. They avoided a colossal amount of sorrow pain and death that the Noldor could've avoided if they just stayed.

The Noldor bit from that apple, so they suffered...
The Vanyar left the apple untouched, so they did not suffer.

^Sin in a nutshell.

Again, sorry to get overtly religious, this conversation got me going.


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## Ingolmin (Nov 26, 2016)

The Vanyar were just like the Teleri when they did not follow the Noldor to Middle Earth. Valar were not fools, they knew that their time had not yet come to take revenge upon Melkor. The Valar and and elves living in the Blessed Realm were aware of the events that were happening in Middle Earth wholly. It would have come to them through the eagles and Ulmo etc.The other elves could not help the Noldor as they were not permitted to stop the Noldor from going to Middle Earth from force. They were not cowards but yet they feared the wrath of the Valar. Those who were living in Valinor since the First Age were forbidden by the Ainur to go from there till the War of Wrath. So they had no choice other than witnessing the unfolding of events in Middle Earth. Also, the elves of the Blessed Realm were highly learned and this knowledge was not a waste as a large population of Elves(Teleri, Vanyar etc) still dwelt there.


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## PaigeSinclaire88 (Dec 16, 2016)

Confusticated said:


> We know the Vanyar were friends of the Noldor in Valinor, and would have dwelt together if not for the Vanyar wishing to live in the light of the trees whereas the Noldor wanted the stars. Now the Vanyar sat in Valinor for hundreds of years knowing that their friends, the Noldor, were in Middle-earth fighting a losing battle, yet they did not go to aid them until Earendil showed up and the Valar decided it was time.
> 
> Was this failure for so many years to leave Aman and join the Noldor in Middle-earth done out of wisdom or out of selfishness, cowardice, foolishness or any other bad reasons?




I think one _*could argue*_ it was selfishness.


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## OfRhosgobel (Jan 3, 2017)

Confusticated said:


> We know the Vanyar were friends of the Noldor in Valinor, and would have dwelt together if not for the Vanyar wishing to live in the light of the trees whereas the Noldor wanted the stars. Now the Vanyar sat in Valinor for hundreds of years knowing that their friends, the Noldor, were in Middle-earth fighting a losing battle, yet they did not go to aid them until Earendil showed up and the Valar decided it was time.
> 
> Was this failure for so many years to leave Aman and join the Noldor in Middle-earth done out of wisdom or out of selfishness, cowardice, foolishness or any other bad reasons?



The Vanyar are the most devoted of all the children of Aman. There place was always at the Valars side and it was there bidding that the Vanyar followed. It's evident in the fact that they helped in middle-earth only when the Valar did. The Noldor defied the gods and the Vanyar would have seen this as an insult. They would never have come to the Noldors aid if the Valar had not decided to.


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## Phuc Do (Feb 9, 2017)

We know very little about Vanyar. You can call them cowards or wise. We really don't know because the story is not about them. They are only there to enrich the lore. Ultimately the story are about the legendary Noldors and the plight against ultimate evil...


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## CMParish (Feb 21, 2017)

My guess is that the Vanyar had no idea what was happening in Middle-earth. How would they? And yes I would call them wise. They were first to answer the summons to Valinor and they knew not to trust Melkor and his offer of friendship, which shows a sight more wisdom then what we see in the Noldor. 

When they learned their aid was needed they went. Would they have gone if the Valar did not? Who knows. But they did go. So all things considered I'd say they were wise and brave.


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