# Nazgúl Inconsistancies



## Aulë (Sep 29, 2003)

> _LotR Appendix A (iv)_
> In the last years of Denethor I the race of uruks, black orcs of great strength, first appeared out of Mordor, and in 2475 they swept across Ithilien and took Osgiliath. Boromir son of Denethor (after whom Boromir of the Nine Walkers was later named) defeated them and regained Ithilien; but Osgiliath was finally ruined, and its great stone-bridge was broken. No people dwelt there afterwards. *Boromir was a great captain, and even the Witch-king feared him.* He was noble and fair of face, a man strong in body and in will, but he received a Morgul-wound in that war which shortened his days, and he became shrunken with pain and died twelve year after his father.





> _LotR Appendix A (iv)_
> 'But it is said that when au was lost suddenly the Witch-king himself appeared, black-robed and black-masked upon a black horse. Fear fell upon all who beheld him; but he singled out the Captain of Gondor for the fullness of his hatred, and with a terrible cry he rode straight upon him. Eärnur would have withstood him; but his horse could not endure that onset, and it swerved and bore him far away before he could master it.
> 'Then the Witch-king laughed, and none that heard it ever forgot the horror of that cry. *But Glorfindel rode up then on his white horse, and in the midst of his laughter the Witch-king turned to flight and passed into the shadows.* For night came down on the battlefield, and he was lost, and none saw whither he went.
> 
> ...





> _RotK: The Battle of the Pelennor Fields_
> Then Merry heard of all sounds in that hour the strangest. It seemed that Dernhelm laughed, and the clear voice was like the ring of steel. 'But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.'
> The winged creature screamed at her, *but the Ringwraith made no answer, and was silent, as if in sudden doubt.* Very amazement for a moment conquered Merry's fear. He opened his eyes and the blackness was lifted from them. There some paces from him sat the great beast, and all seemed dark about it, and above it loomed the Nazgûl Lord like a shadow of despair. A little to the left facing them stood she whom he had called Dernhelm. But the helm of her secrecy, had fallen from her, and her bright hair, released from its bonds, gleamed with pale gold upon her shoulders. Her eyes grey as the sea were hard and fell, and yet tears were on her cheek. A sword was in her hand, and she raised her shield against the horror of her enemy's eyes.
> Éowyn it was, and Dernhelm also. For into Merry's mind flashed the memory of the face that he saw at the riding from Dunharrow: the face of one that goes seeking death, having no hope. Pity filled his heart and great wonder, and suddenly the slow-kindled courage of his race awoke. He clenched his hand. She should not die, so fair, so desperate At least she should not die alone, unaided.
> The face of their enemy was not turned towards him, but still he hardly dared to move, dreading lest the deadly eyes should fall on him. Slowly, slowly he began to crawl aside; *but the Black Captain, in doubt* and malice intent upon the woman before him, heeded him no more than a worm in the mud.



What is with the Witch King?
He challenges a great warrior-King (Eärnur), yet fears Glorfindel and a Steward (Boromir).
He laughs at an army of Men, yet is afraid of a singular woman (Eowyn).
Are the Nazgúl just cowards who run away when someone has the guts to stand up to them? Are they totally reliant on the fear people have of them?


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## Niniel (Sep 29, 2003)

Could it be that the Witch-king knew the prophecy that he wouldn't be killed by a man? In that case he might just have been pondering whether it was wise to fight Éowyn. It doesn't actually say that he is afraid of her.


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## HLGStrider (Sep 29, 2003)

Well, as for fearing Boromir, that could possibly mean that he feared losing his army, not necessarily for his own life. It says he was a great captain, not a great fighter. He could inspire men to victory. A Nazgul without an army just isn't as good of Nazgul. 

Also, as for Eowyn, I think it is fairly obvious he just has doubts about whether or not he was invincible, due to the prophecy.


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## Eriol (Sep 29, 2003)

Random snippets from my memory:

1) It is said somewhere, I think in Boromir's account of the war at Gondor in the Council of Elrond, that the Nazgûl could not be defeated by armies. ("Force of arms", I think it's said). It may also be at the UT essay; I'll get back to you on that. 

2) The Witch-King clearly knows about the prophecy if we consider his words to Gandalf at the gate of Minas Tirith, "no man may defeat me". (By the way, I think Gandalf's status as a Maia would be noticeable to the Witch-King, since Gandalf had lived in the Blessed Realm and was therefore powerful in both the seen and unseen worlds. And therefore the Witch-King, at least, thought that the word "man" in the prophecy was related to gender, not race );

Even so Elgee may be right about the Witch-King fearing the first Boromir's prowess as a general, not as a gladiator. 

As for his challenge on Eärnur, he had the prophecy on his side, and also I suspect that a gladiator is less fearsome in battle than a skilled general... or at least it seems so in the movie "Gladiator" .

As for the "main question" -- would the Nazgûl be utterly reliant on the fear they provoked, so much so that defiance would defeat them -- Aragorn (and Gandalf) say much about that in FotR. Their chief weapon is fear; it grows with darkness; and it grows when they are together (even Gandalf could not take on the Nine).

That battle in Weathertop witnessed by the hobbits shows also that they have other weapons than fear .


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## Lhunithiliel (Sep 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Aulë _
> *What is with the Witch King?
> He challenges a great warrior-King (Eärnur), yet fears Glorfindel and a Steward (Boromir).
> He laughs at an army of Men, yet is afraid of a singular woman (Eowyn).
> Are the Nazgúl just cowards who run away when someone has the guts to stand up to them? Are they totally reliant on the fear people have of them? *


   

LOL 

********

I sign in this wonderful discussion (Ah! Aule! Those planets! ) with just small points of view though the subject I find extremely interesting and I wish this thread does not share a "tragic" short end!

And you wouldn't possibly expect a Nazgul to stay out of it, OF COURSE!!!!  

Well.. to start with, I'd say that the Witch-King << >> Eowyn case is clear - pure prophecy! We have largely discussed the matter in a debate. 
In the cases of Nazgul meeting a mortal, be he a king or a great steward... I here have two points:

1/ The Nazgul were once Men! Mortal men! In a few "side" facts (read between the lines) it is somehow obvious that even now endowed with great powers=sorcery, there is a part in their mind that always remains human. So..... as Eri has said, it turns to gladiator fight. A stron man stands against a powerful rival..... 
a clash between two purely human mentalities. I guess in such cases the "super-powers" a Nazgul as a twisted creature had, could not beat that part of his human mind. 
Did a Nazgul really feel _fear_?
I guess - yes as I have seen it from a psychological point of view.

2/ Nazgul - described as horrifying creatures yet within the context of those quotes above, provided by Aule, we witness some sort of _fear_ showed on their behalf. Why? How can it be?

What would you say to an opinion of mine, stating that in a myth/tale/legend there always *must* be "good guys" and "bad guys" and the "bad guys" should be very terrifying BUT!!! they * must* fear the "good guys" and the "good guys" *must* defeat the "bad guys". 

Though put in such a humorous way, I think you got my point. 
**********

I'll be back!


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## Aulë (Sep 30, 2003)

> _LotR Appendix A II_
> Footnote:
> For her shield arm was broken by the mace of the Witch-King; but he was brought to nothing, and thus the words of Glorfindel to Eärnur were fulfilled, that the Witch-King would not fall by the hand of man. For it is said in the songs of the Mark that in this deed Éowyn had the aid of Theoden's esquire, and that he also was not a Man but a Halfling out of a far country, though Éomer gave him honour in the Mark and the name of Holdwine.
> (This Holdwine was none other than Meriadoc the Magnificent who was Master of Buckland.)


I get the feeling from this quote that Glorfindel was prophesising that someone not from the race of Men would slay the Witch-King.
But then I wonder why an Elf didn't kill him...
Maybe Glorfindel's words had a double meaning, in that a female AND a being not of the race of Men would kill the Witch-King together?


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## Flammifer (Sep 30, 2003)

Hmm that's a very good theory Aule, I like it!

This is possible, but I still believe that Glorfindel is predicting that the Witch-King will not fall by the hand of *a man*. This is evident by the fact that in the quote:



> "...and not by the hand of *m*an will he fall"



The non-capitalisation of the word "man" I believe proves this. If it was capitalised, then perhaps Glorfindel might have meant the Race of Men.

Besides, it would have kinda sucked if Glorfindel had been sent back to Middle-earth just make phoney prophesies, now wouldn't it?


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## Aulë (Sep 30, 2003)

But Glorfindel didn't write it down, he spoke it. How would we know whether it was a capital M?
We are basing this on what Frodo thought it was.



> _LotR Appendix A I (iv)_
> 'Eärnur now rode back, but Glorfindel, looking into the gathering dark, said: "Do not pursue him! He will not return to this land. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand *of man* will he fall."


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## Dáin Ironfoot I (Sep 30, 2003)

I have seen many a thread based on this subject, Man or man, hobbit or elf, male or female... etc. My personal take...


> 'no living man may hinder me'


Hinder- to obstruct or delay the progress of. To interfere with action or progress.

In this statement made by the Witch-King, it is a poor choice of words for Tolkien to use. For wasn't the Witch-King hindered by Glorfindel earlier (two times- at the Fords and the defeat of Angmar), and the Gondorians led by Boromir- not of the Nine- (when Ithilien was retaken). So by saying no living man may _hinder_ me, the Witch-King is wrong. It has happened before.

But if Glorfindel's prophesy is analyzed, you see a more specific and accurate statement.


> 'Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall.'


 Far off, yes. 1975 TA- 3019 TA. Not by the hand of man will he fall. That is true as well. Éowyn, was obviously, not male. She was the one who delivered the final blow, forever sundering the Witch-King from ME. Merry helped, yes, a male. I do not care whether or not he is a Hobbit, and the fact that he is male, it does not matter. Though his role was vital in defeating the Witch-King, so was Gandalf's in confronting him, Glorfindel's in defying him, etc. These three individuals hindered him, contrary to what the Witch-King said. By hindering I mean delayed the action of, obstructed. Merry OBSTRUCTED the action of killing Éowyn. Gandalf DELAYED his intrusion into the City. Glorfindel INTERFERED with the planned capture of Frodo. All of them hindered the Witch-King... all of the male gender. So the Witch-King is a liar.

Yet, Éowyn, a female, delivered the final blow. It was by her hand that he fell. Literally, he fell- his mantle and beast, his raiment and leadership was fallen. By her hand. Just as Glorfindel predicted.

So in conclusion, a man of any race could hinder the Witch-King. We see that through Merry, Boromir, Gandalf, and especially Glorfindel. Hobbit, Man, Maia, and Elf. Hmmm... pattern anyone? I have a strong feeling a dwarf male defied the Witch-King as well- remember the messenger to Dáin II at Erebor? I'm pretty sure that black messenger could be interpreted as the Witch-King, no other Nazgul is recorded speaking other than he. At least... not determinable conversations. So there's a male of each race of Iluvatar hindering the Witch-King. But they could not 'fell' him. That would take a woman.

So the Witch-King by saying no living man could hinder me is probably speaking out of fear, fear of defeat. He is being hubris (love that word) and disheartening men by saying he is invincible. But when a woman comes along, and undoubtebly he has heard the prophesy, of course he would experience fear. Fear that he would be finally defeated. That better have made sense!


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Aulë _
> *What is with the Witch King?
> He challenges a great warrior-King (Eärnur), yet fears Glorfindel and a Steward (Boromir).
> He laughs at an army of Men, yet is afraid of a singular woman (Eowyn).
> *



I think it's pretty reasonable to fear Glorfindel, since he's a High Elf, with the light of the Undying Lands fairly undimmed in his eyes, and who wields enormous power (he slew a Balrog!).

Eärnur was a great warrior, but not as wise as his father (as the quote says). The Witch-king took advantage of that, and seemingly challenged him to a duel. He used a cunning plan against Eärnur who rushed to meet the challenge without giving it much thought. The Witch-king probably waylaid him without having to lift a finger himself.

As for Eowyn, I think the reason why the Witch-king wavered in that moment, was that she took him by surprise by revealing that she was female, not male, and he pondered what hidden meaning might lie behind her words.


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## Beleg (Oct 1, 2003)

> What is with the Witch King?



Nothing wrong.



> He challenges a great warrior-King (Eärnur), yet fears Glorfindel and a Steward (Boromir).



Earnur was hotheaded. In him the sly mind of witchking precieved a chance of getting rid of the royal line of Gondor. While Boromir was different, he was a great captain, probably very brave and valiant, but he may also have some semblence of prudence and wiseness which Earnur lacked and was thus an easier prey for WitchKing to dine on. 

Boromir was, 



> Boromir son of Denethor (after whom Boromir of the Nine Walkers was later named) defeated them and regained Ithilien; but Osgiliath was finally ruined, and its great stone-bridge was broken. No people dwelt there afterwards. Boromir was a great captain, and even the Witch-king feared him. He was noble and fair of face, a man strong in body and in will, but he received a Morgul-wound in that war which shortened his days, and he became shrunken with pain and died twelve year after his father



While Earnur was, 



> 'Eärnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom. He was a man of strong body and hot mood; but he would take no wife, for his only pleasure was in fighting, or in the exercise of arms. His prowess was such that none in Gondor could stand against him in those weapon-sports in which he delighted, seeming rather a champion than a captain or king, and retaining his vigour and skill to a later age than was then usual.'



A stark contrast to Boromir. 



> He laughs at an army of Men, yet is afraid of a singular woman (Eowyn).



Look at the circumstances, 



> 'But it is said that when au was lost suddenly the Witch-king himself appeared, black-robed and black-masked upon a black horse. Fear fell upon all who beheld him; but he singled out the Captain of Gondor for the fullness of his hatred, and with a terrible cry he rode straight upon him. Eärnur would have withstood him; but his horse could not endure that onset, and it swerved and bore him far away before he could master it.
> 'Then the Witch-king laughed, and none that heard it ever forgot the horror of that cry. But Glorfindel rode up then on his white horse, and in the midst of his laughter the Witch-king turned to flight and passed into the shadows. For night came down on the battlefield, and he was lost, and none saw whither he went



Well he could be laughing at the humilation Earnur suffered but stopped short in mid breath when Glorifindel, a hardy and valiant High Elf, a bit stronger of mind then the other Elves faced him. Part of the reason could be that WitchKing knew that he couldn't win a one to one battle against Glorifindel so he fled. And I believe that he did that for a motif: He knew that well nigh everything was lost here, but he probably precieved in Earnur, a being of flaring temper and collecting information about his lineage hatched a plan. He knew that the obvious sanctury from hereon would be in Mordor, which was left unguarded thanks to the great plague and Kinstrife. And he also knew that Earnur would succeed his father King Earnil. He probably knew he hadnt married and will not marry in the near future. If he could be killed then the royal line would be wiped out. 
So infact through his laughed he challenged Earnur and he being a champion took that as a insult and was more keen when WitchKing reknewed his challenge some years after. 

Glorfindel offcourse was a totally different prospect; not even the witchking I believe could have tricked him, guess you don't have much chance of overwhelming someone who fought a Balrog.



> Are the Nazgúl just cowards who run away when someone has the guts to stand up to them? Are they totally reliant on the fear people have of them?



They aren't reliant on fear but they possess wit and are sly, and most importantly they use their wit cunningly and when it most matters. 
They also knew their limitations, why bother trying to fight anyone whom you know can't easily overcome physically and have no chance to overcome emotionally. There are lots of other folks who can be overcome with much less effort so why bother with the more valiant and wise folks. 

He feared Boromir's powers because he was wise, noble and calculated; If I were at his place I would also have feared Boromir's powers; seems of the breed of Elendur and Elendil the tall before. 

Infact these paragons are a perfect example of WitchKing's wit and slyness.


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