# Can Balrogs Fly?



## Firawyn (Oct 3, 2008)

Yes, I am perfectly prepared to get my arse whooped for bringing up the Balrog question again.

HOWEVER - I am currently re-reading LotR, and just finished FotR. There's that scene right near the end where Legolas shoots down a large black creature in the sky (which we can assume was a Ringwraith on one of those big reptile steed things).

Gimli comments that it reminded him of the Balrog, almost as if he was asking the others if it could be a Balrog - to me it seemed that no one really indicated that seeing a Balrog in the sky was an impossibility. It made me think - so can Balrog's fly?

I'm not asking if they had wings...maybe, maybe not...but simply, could they fly? Even in the Mines of Moria, you wonder how the Balrog got around in the Mines with those narrow bridges. Maybe he, too, could fly? 

I'm wondering if this discussion my bring a different perspective to the age old argument of "Do Balrogs Have Wings?"


Fir-


----------



## YayGollum (Oct 3, 2008)

*Re: Can Belrogs Fly?*

Why do you keep spelling balrog that way? oh well. Yes, they can fly. There was that one scene in that The Silmarillion book where Mel whined that Ungoliant was trying to steal his stuff, and a bunch of balrogs swooshed directly over. I read nothing about them getting in their giant as well as scary and apparently fireproof boat. But then, not all balrogs are necessarily the same. All Ainur type things take the form of whatever their natures are, so some balrogs could be flighty, and some could be more grounded.


----------



## Illuin (Oct 3, 2008)

*Re: Can Belrogs Fly?*



> By YayGollum
> _All Ainur type things take the form of whatever their natures are, so some balrogs could be flighty, and some could be more grounded._


 
Hi Fir. Yay is right.


_“Now the Valar took to themselves shape and hue; and because they were drawn into the World by love of the Children of Ilúvatar, for whom they hoped, they took shape after that manner which they had beheld in the Vision of Ilúvatar, save only in majesty and splendour. Moreover their shape comes of their knowledge or the visible World, rather than of the World itself; and they need it not, save only as we use raiment, and yet we may be naked and suffer no loss of our being. Therefore the Valar may walk, if they will, unclad, and then even the Eldar cannot clearly perceive them, though they be present. But when they desire to clothe themselves the Valar take upon them forms some as of male and some as of female; for that difference of temper they had even from their beginning, and it is but bodied forth in the choice of each, not made by the choice, even as with us male and female may be shown by the raiment but is not made thereby. But the shapes wherein the Great Ones array themselves are not at all times like to the shapes of the kings and queens of the Children of Ilúvatar; for at times they may clothe themselves in their own thought, made visible in forms of majesty and dread.” _*The Silmarillion - Ainulindalë*


----------



## Elthir (Oct 3, 2008)

*Re: Can Belrogs Fly?*

There is no text so far (that I know of) that certainly states Balrogs can fly. In my opinion the 'early' Balrogs don't seem to be able to fly. In the version of QS found in The Lost Road: 'But he loosed upon his foes the last desperate assault that he had prepared, and out of the pits of Angband there issued the winged dragons, that had not before been seen; for until that day no creatures of his cruel thought had yet assailed the air.' Quenta Silmarillion 

Even earlier in _The Book of Lost Tales_, for example, no Balrog seems to fly over the walls of Gondolin, and Melko had caught Eagles and chained them against sharp rocks to squeeze from them the magic words whereby he might learn to fly. Of course one could disagree, or simply argue Tolkien's _revised_ Balrogs could fly, but to say so with certainty we would need an unequivocal example. The scene *YayGollum* refers to has been _interpreted_ as flight, by some, but it's not necessarily so. Earlier versions include Orcs, who can't fly of course and yet also seem speedy enough here: 

'... and his awful cry echoed through the shuddering world. To his aid came the Orcs and Balrogs that lived yet in the lowest places of Angband. With their whips of flame the Balrogs smote the webs asunder...' The Quenta. The later Silmarillion version of this Balrog rescue might be suggestive in its wording, but I note:

'... he mounted upon Rochallor his great horse and rode forth alone, and none might restrain him. He passed over Dor-nu-Fauglith like a wind amid the dust, and all that beheld his onset fled in amaze, thinking that Orome himself was come...' Of the Ruin of Beleriand (1977 Silmarillion version).

So one can 'pass over' a place, even 'like a wind', but that doesn't necessarily mean one is actually flying like a bird.


----------



## YayGollum (Oct 3, 2008)

*Re: Can Belrogs Fly?*

This is why I am constantly fighting the urge to make a teen-aged mutant ninja turtle Ainur type character. *hangs head in shame* It is totally possible, from what I have read. He just wouldn't call himself a ninja. Anyways, even if the other characters made much of a case against Gimli's idea, what do they know about the capabilities of balrogs? Not much, I would guess.

Ah, and towards the stuff that the Galin person typed ---> The balrogs were not of Mel's cruel thought. They were of Eru's cruel thought. The dragons were a superly cool invention of Mel's, though. 

Balrogs don't fly over the walls because that would make them much juicier targets. They stayed back and directed troops to have fun with destroying the pretty walls. A great day to be an Orc! A scarier day to be an Orc would be what you were typing about where they were obviously riding on the shoulders of balrogs and wishing for their caves.


----------



## Elthir (Oct 3, 2008)

*Re: Can Belrogs Fly?*



> Ah, and towards the stuff that the Galin person typed ---> The balrogs were not of Mel's cruel thought. They were of Eru's cruel thought. The dragons were a superly cool invention of Mel's, though.


 
In the early versions Melkor created Balrogs however (this quote is from an earlier version of QS), so the quote can or might include Balrogs.

But in any case, one can make arguments and find reasons, but my main point above is that one can't (at least not yet that I have seen) raise a description that certainly and unequivocally shows that Balrogs can fly.


----------



## Illuin (Oct 4, 2008)

*Re: Can Belrogs Fly?*



> by Galin
> _The scene *YayGollum* refers to has been interpreted as flight, by some, but it's not necessarily so. Earlier versions include Orcs, who can't fly of course and yet also seem speedy enough here:_


 

Um; is my documentation regarding the published Silmarillion irrelevant? I think a re-read regarding the Ainur’s potential is in order. My new friend Galin; as I have come to realize; Yay is always two steps ahead of the rest of us “scholars” who actually “think” we know lore. It’s akin to the way Aragorn was treated. He sits back and endures; but if he so chose....he would bury you and I when it came to the facts. However, he happens to have a sense of humor that transcends the mentality of the purist’s pedantic psycho-babble. He's way ahead of you and I my friend.


----------



## Aisteru (Oct 4, 2008)

*Re: Can Belrogs Fly?*

As everyone has already covered this topic pretty well, I'll just express my sentiment towards the question. I was just thinking about this yesterday because when I first joined (back in '06 or something) this was a hot thread and I wanted to see if anyone had anything else to say. So, thank you, Firawyn.


----------



## Elthir (Oct 4, 2008)

*Re: Can Belrogs Fly?*



Firawyn said:


> '... Gimli comments that it reminded him of the Belrog, almost as if he was asking the others if it could be a Belrog - to me it seemed that no one really indicated that seeing a Belrog in the sky was an impossibility. It made me think - so can Belrog's fly?'


 
This is the part:

'I cannot,' said Gimli. 'But I am glad that the shadow came no nearer. I liked it not at all. Too much it reminded me of the shadow in Moria - the shadow of the Balrog,' he ended in a whisper.'

But I think Frodo's response is notable: 

'It was not a Balrog,' said Frodo, still shivering with the chill that had come upon him. 'It was something colder. I think it was -' Then he paused and fell silent.'

Frodo seems (to me) to be talking about the 'feel' the creatures instill. Of course, the Balrog also seemed to have a wing-like shape at one point in the encounter in Moria, and generally it might depend on how much one knows about Balrogs.


----------



## Gordis (Oct 4, 2008)

*Re: Can Belrogs Fly?*

Perhaps Gimli thought it was a Balrog riding a Fell Beast?


----------



## YayGollum (Oct 4, 2008)

*Re: Can Belrogs Fly?*

I thank you for the compliment, Illuin person, but comparing me to the evil Aragorn? Ick.  

Towards the notable bit that the Galin person brought upwards ---> That's just the superly boring Frodo being mysterious and refusing to explain, trying not to have anyone worry about him. A little Spidey-sense sort of thing when it comes to Nazgul, due to getting hit with a creepily magical knife. 

And towards an unanswered question from the beginning, there were plenty of larger areas for the guy stomp around in. When it comes to getting places via bridges, it makes no sense to myself that the only way out of Moria was that one narrow bridge. Well, maybe by that time and after lots of fighting, it could be the only one, but before that, wouldn't there be a large number of really wide bridges? The place was a major city, lots of trading going on. Sure, the Dwarves cared about security, but why would they limit so much traffic? Also, why wouldn't the Orcs have built their own bridges? They were there for a while, and multiple escape routes make all kinds of sense.


----------



## Firawyn (Oct 4, 2008)

*Re: Can Belrogs Fly?*

@ Yay - spelling corrected - my bad. 

@ Gordis -  I like. But I do agree that Frodo sensed it was the Nazgul, as per _"getting hit with a creepily magical knife". 

_@ Yay again -


> Also, why wouldn't the Orcs have built their own bridges? They were there for a while, and multiple escape routes make all kinds of sense.



Do you really think the orcs were that smart? Well...perhaps you do...but does anyone _else_ think orcs were smart enough to build their own bridges? 

@ Aisteru - You're welcome. I don't think this particular discussion will ever end for some of the TTF veterans.


----------



## YayGollum (Oct 4, 2008)

Yes, I don't see why they wouldn't be that smart. Where did you get the idea that Orcs are stupid? Evil doesn't have to mean stupid. Expendable stormtroopers don't have to be stupid. Also, they made some cool stuff of their own, explosives one of them. Or is there some evidence that what I think of as Orcish originals were actually handed to them by someone else, and they just mass-produce the things, having to constantly refer to the very simple step-by-step instructions pasted to the walls of their caves?


----------



## Gordis (Oct 5, 2008)

*Re: Can Belrogs Fly?*



Firawyn;491208Do you really think the [autolink said:


> orcs[/autolink] were that smart? Well...perhaps you do...but does anyone _else_ think orcs were smart enough to build their own bridges?


I do, I do!

I think, thought, that the orcs of Moria were not interested in building more bridges over the chasm. They kept the defences of Khazad-Dum, including the possibility to easily destroy the only way leading inside. After all, there were those cruel Dwarves keen on revenge who could come with more buddies from Erebor or Iron hills any time. And there were those cruel Elves living nearby in the Golden wood. Who knows when they would want some mithril?
And the escape road led West - to Eregion. The Dwarves always attacked from the East. Likely orcs also made some new tunnels leading outside, but concealed.


----------



## Firawyn (Oct 5, 2008)

I find anyone...orc, elf, man, dwarf...anyone, who follows someone else without question...as the orcs followed Sauron or Saruman...

I find anyone who would do that inescapably moronic. (aka stupid)


----------



## YayGollum (Oct 5, 2008)

I agree with that definition of stupid, but I see no evidence that any Orc refused to question his superiors. They grumble about orders all the time, I'm sure. An order of intelligence: Unquestioning, immediately challenging any super-powered boss when orders risky for you are given, mumbling and grumbling about them under your breath (maybe some Orc with a plan will notice? Maybe some elf with a plan will reform an army of tragically fallen cousins?), and making a plan of your own, which the Great Goblin, for one, did. The Uruk-Hai were under a creepy spell, so we can't be sure of how stupid they were.


----------



## Burzum (Oct 19, 2008)

I don't think orcs were that stupid, either. Sure, most of them probably weren't the pinnacles of intellect, but if you read the conversation between Shagrat and Gorbag and the one between an Uruk warrior and a Snaga tracker, they actually question the authority quite a lot (though they fear them a lot, too). If anytrhing, the orcs seem to complain more easily than the Elves and Men do, due to their angry nature.

But back to the Balrogs: I have indeed seen no account of them flying. That's actually one of the strongest arguments against the existence of Balrog wings (and that they could fly would almost, though not absolutely, _entail,_ that they had wings). The Maiar could change shapes, sure, but that ability could be limited - and while there is no clear account for whether the Balrogs could change their shapes, they simply don't seem to do that. That could be explained by saying that they simply assumed the most hideous forms possible and dwelt it in because there was no reason to change their forms, but it is still a possibility that during the "fall" of Balrogs by Melkor they somehow lost the ability to change forms.

By the way, is it canonical that only seven Balrogs ever existed?


----------



## Firawyn (Oct 19, 2008)

Burzum said:


> By the way, is it canonical that only seven Balrogs ever existed?



Humm...canonical...good word. I had to look it up! 

To answer:



Encyclopedia of Arda said:


> Details of their numbers are hard to state with certainty, but there seem to have been relatively few of them - probably no more than seven.



It can be agreed that Tolkien could have greatly expanded on Middle Earth, especially on the history. However, it's an incredible feat for one man to create a whole new world in his lifetime, let alone complete it. On the other hand, perhaps that is the very fact that makes Middle Earth so great - because like our own world, Middle Earth is not completely understood...as we are not God (or Eru).



*Source on the above quote: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/b/balrogs.html


----------



## Burzum (Oct 19, 2008)

I see. So Tuor slaying five Balrogs and Ecthelion slaying three (and that is, excluding Gothmog) in the Book of Lost Tale version of The Fall of Gondolin shouldn't count, I guess.

By the way, I think it would be safe to assume that at least the Balrogs that saved Melkor from Ungoliant could fly, even if we take "with winged speed" as a metaphor. I don't think they could have come from Angband to Lammoth within a reasonable time without flying.


----------



## Elthir (Oct 20, 2008)

burzum said:


> By the way, I think it would be safe to assume that at least the Balrogs that saved Melkor from Ungoliant could fly, even if we take "with winged speed" as a metaphor. I don't think they could have come from Angband to Lammoth within a reasonable time without flying.


 
Maybe, but again the _Quenta_ of 1930 includes Orcs rescuing Morgoth here, and the _Quenta Silmarillion_ of the later 1930s arguably speaks to the Balrogs (that were with these orcs) being unable to fly as well. Of course the 1930 Quenta was revised, but as it appears there that Tolkien did not think it impossible for creatures who couldn't fly to reach Morgoth in time, arguably at least, he need not think so later. And not that you said otherwise, but _winged speed_ is often used in poetic description to denote great speed: 'speed as if something had wings (and could fly)', used in reference to horses or ships, for example. 



> By the way, is it canonical that only seven Balrogs ever existed?


 
Hmmm, that depends I guess 

The 3 or at most 7 reference is not part of a tale but appears in a marginal note -- which note is related to a Balrog description revised in the _Annals of Aman_ (revised in the later 1950s it seems). That said, for whatever reason JRRT did not revise other passages in the _Quenta Silmarillion_ tradition that still spoke to very many Balrogs. As Christopher Tolkien edited certain passages for the 1977 Silmarillion so that great numbers would not be explicit, his editing appears to be following his father's revision to the Annals. Christopher doesn't explain this decision, and by that I only mean I'm not sure he necessarily endorses the low numbers as being ultimately 'correct', but could have decided to leave both possibilities open, in a sense (the wording for the passage of the War of Wrath aside for the moment).

Some seem to take the approach that Tolkien revised the numbers but just never got around to revising _every_ text. Others are not so sure. I tend to lean toward the idea that by the late fifties JRRT ultimately imagined Balrogs as even more powerful beings (more powerful than he had earlier imagined them), and so, even if the specific numbers were not going to be known, he maybe was going to revise references that spoke to 'hosts' of them, for example.


----------



## Gordis (Oct 20, 2008)

One thing that puzzles me in all these "Barlog wings" debates is the belief that Barlogs were fully incarnate maiar without the ability to shape-shift.
Why so?

Sauron, before his first "death" in the Downfall, had no wings - but he could fly. He only had to turn into a bat to do so. What if Barlogs could also assume a winged-shape at will?


----------



## Burzum (Oct 20, 2008)

Galin said:


> Maybe, but again the _Quenta_ of 1930 includes Orcs rescuing Morgoth here, and the _Quenta Silmarillion_ of the later 1930s arguably speaks to the Balrogs (that were with these orcs) being unable to fly as well. Of course the 1930 Quenta was revised, but as it appears there that Tolkien did not think it impossible for creatures who couldn't fly to reach Morgoth in time, arguably at least, he need not think so later. And not that you said otherwise, but _winged speed_ is often used in poetic description to denote great speed: 'speed as if something had wings (and could fly)', used in reference to horses or ships, for example.


 
It seems that Tolkien might have pictured Balrogs without flying abilities, though I'm not sure about any implication of Balrogs not being able to fly (the _Quenta_ does speak about orcs being present as well, but other than being lumped toghether with orcs - that certainly couldn't fly - I don't remember it explicitly stating anything about the Balrogs' flying abilities or a lack thereof; and _Qunta Simarillion_ doesn't even mentione the orcs, without saying anything about Balrogs' flying ability, again). 

But, whether Tolkien thought so or not, it is pretty hard to imagine Balrogs running all the way from Angband to Lammoth on foot. The distance is approximately 1,500 miles. The world record for a horse gallop (and that is over a short distance, so such speed cannot be maintained througout thousands of miles) is 55 miles per hour. Even if we take that the Balrogs could run as fast as 60 miles per hour on average over that distance (and this is being quite generous; it doesn't seem like they were much faster, if faster at all, than horses. And also consider that they had to climb mountains), it would take them about 24 hours to get to Lammoth. That would have been enough time for Ungoliant to have done significant damamge to Melkor, but Melkor doesn't seem to be hurt at all except for the burn from the Silmarili. And Tolkien's writing about that event conveys a sense of urgency and speed. 

Uh... maybe the Balrogs could run just really, REALLY fast, or maybe Ungoliant spent an entire day doing nothing but wrapping up Melkor in her spider web, but they seem far less plausible than the rather simple solution of saying that Balrogs could fly (I must add, though, that they would have had to fly really, really fast anyway in order to reach Lammoth within a reasonable time - a few hours at most, I think).



> Some seem to take the approach that Tolkien revised the numbers but just never got around to revising _every_ text. Others are not so sure. I tend to lean toward the idea that by the late fifties JRRT ultimately imagined Balrogs as even more powerful beings (more powerful than he had earlier imagined them), and so, even if the specific numbers were not going to be known, he maybe was going to revise references that spoke to 'hosts' of them, for example.


I think this is more likely to be correct, if we take the Balrogs' being Maiar to be the final decision; I have a hard time imagining that there were hundreds or thousands of Maiar under Morgoth's command.



Gordis said:


> One thing that puzzles me in all these "Barlog wings" debates is the belief that Barlogs were fully incarnate maiar without the ability to shape-shift.
> Why so?
> 
> Sauron, before his first "death" in the Downfall, had no wings - but he could fly. He only had to turn into a bat to do so. What if Barlogs could also assume a winged-shape at will?


It seems likely that the Balrogs put too much power into their physical forms that they lost the ability to change their shape. This cannot be fully proven, but certainly has some, if minor, pieces of evidence: they were powerful warriors, and they never seem to change their shape, even though a right amount of shape-shifting could have been strategically, and tactically, beneficial.


----------



## YayGollum (Oct 20, 2008)

Crazy flying balrog debate (why do I want to mention Batman?)! They are made out of magical smoke, fire, and steel. They don't need wings to fly. What's keeping the fire going? How do their claws stay attached to the ends of fiery fingers and toes? Makes no sense, but oh well. It's evil and unfair magic and can therefore stay going without physical fuel, stay floating without constant concentration on telekinetic powers, and fly really fast.


----------



## Elthir (Oct 20, 2008)

Burzum said:


> It seems that Tolkien might have pictured Balrogs without flying abilities, though I'm not sure about any implication of Balrogs not being able to fly (the _Quenta_ does speak about orcs being present as well, but other than being lumped toghether with orcs - that certainly couldn't fly - I don't remember it explicitly stating anything about the Balrogs' flying abilities or a lack thereof; and _Qunta Simarillion_ doesn't even mentione the orcs, without saying anything about Balrogs' flying ability, again).


 
Sorry to be confusing, my fault. I was referring to a different quote from _Quenta Silmarillion_ (with respect to the implication that Balrogs couldn't fly), specifically the one I already cited on the first page of this thread. It's not at all certain I admit, but the idea was that if no creature of Melkor's cruel thought had yet assailed the air till the winged dragons appeared, then arguably this implies that Balrogs (existing in large numbers at this point) could not fly, thus including for Morgoth's rescue.



> (...) Uh... maybe the Balrogs could run just really, REALLY fast, or maybe Ungoliant spent an entire day doing nothing but wrapping up Melkor in her spider web, but they seem far less plausible than the rather simple solution of saying that Balrogs could fly (I must add, though, that they would have had to fly really, really fast anyway in order to reach Lammoth within a reasonable time - a few hours at most, I think).


 
I tend to approach this one like the question of the Orkish wolfriders: there must have been certain Orcs small enough to ride wolves, or wolves large enough to be ridden by certain Orcs. Here, the Hithlum passage is a fairly poetic, possibly contracted description of some event, and however deep the deep vaults that the demons lurked in, however far the distance, or whatever Ungoliant was doing or planning to do, the Balrogs came like a storm of fire... and came in time (in any case) to save Melkor.

I think more important here is the impact of this description. And as you seem to note yourself, flying makes Balrogs faster, but they still had to get there, and considering from where they began ('far beneath the halls of Angband, in vaults to which the Valar in the haste of their assault had not descended,...') the event is already somewhat incredible.

But incredible is good


----------



## Burzum (Oct 20, 2008)

Galin said:


> Sorry to be confusing, my fault. I was referring to a different quote from _Quenta Silmarillion_ (with respect to the implication that Balrogs couldn't fly), specifically the one I already cited on the first page of this thread. It's not at all certain I admit, but the idea was that if no creature of Melkor's cruel thought had yet assailed the air till the winged dragons appeared, then arguably this implies that Balrogs (existing in large numbers at this point) could not fly, thus including for Morgoth's rescue.


Nah, it was my fault for completely forgetting about that quote. It's still possible that Tolkien changed his thought, but at least in the early days he quite clearly implied that Balrogs could not fly.




> I tend to approach this one like the question of the Orkish wolfriders: there must have been certain Orcs small enough to ride wolves, or wolves large enough to be ridden by certain Orcs. Here, the Hithlum passage is a fairly poetic, possibly contracted description of some event, and however deep the deep vaults that the demons lurked in, however far the distance, or whatever Ungoliant was doing or planning to do, the Balrogs came like a storm of fire... and came in time (in any case) to save Melkor.
> 
> I think more important here is the impact of this description. And as you seem to note yourself, flying makes Balrogs faster, but they still had to get there, and considering from where they began ('far beneath the halls of Angband, in vaults to which the Valar in the haste of their assault had not descended,...') the event is already somewhat incredible.


Indeed, the problem is that even if they could fly, say, 500 miles per hour (which is pretty _damn _fast), they still would have taken at least three hours. And that, in my book, counts as enough time for Ungoliant to have dealt some damage, and Melkor would certainly have fought back if he had the power to do so (to be honest, I think Ungoliant could have devoured Melkor's entire physical body or have siezed the Silmarili in like what, twenty minutes, if Melkor couldn't even fight back). Hell, my original impression when I first read the passage, without paying attention to the geography of the region, was that they were almost in front of Angband and the Balrogs arrived in like 5 minutes. 



> But incredible is good


I would say that _explaining the incredible_ is good. I really don't want to leave some sort of a plot hole there.


----------



## Elthir (Oct 21, 2008)

Burzum said:


> I would say that _explaining the incredible_ is good. I really don't want to leave some sort of a plot hole there.


 
Generally speaking, I like posts that try to resolve things that someone might find problematic in the tales. Though each case is different: for example when someone (at another forum I think) asked how Elrond raised the flood, for myself I was surprised to see an answer that he might have had part of the river blocked by a dam, with gates that could be opened to cause a flood, if wanted. That said, incredible as in astonishing is what I was playing with there, and with the Hithlum passage this seems an intended element. And it's not like I think Tolkien can never make an error, but here I do think he must surely have realized the nature of the scenario he was describing. 

Just to mention it (just to add to the list with respect to pre-1940 texts anyway), along with the Quenta, in _The Earliest Silmarillion_ Morgoth is rescued by Balrogs and the hosts of the Orcs, and from the same text it is later said that the Eagles dwell out of reach of Orc and Balrog. Another implication, at least, that early Balrogs could not fly but yet they, with Orcs, rescued Morgoth. Of course some have said that maybe the Balrogs could fly but maybe not well enough to reach the eagles... 

... and so on it might go


----------



## YayGollum (Oct 21, 2008)

Nah. The air is merely too thin for their fire to stay lit up there.


----------



## Burzum (Oct 21, 2008)

Galin said:


> Generally speaking, I like posts that try to resolve things that someone might find problematic in the tales. Though each case is different: for example when someone (at another forum I think) asked how Elrond raised the flood, for myself I was surprised to see an answer that he might have had part of the river blocked by a dam, with gates that could be opened to cause a flood, if wanted. That said, incredible as in astonishing is what I was playing with there, and with the Hithlum passage this seems an intended element. And it's not like I think Tolkien can never make an error, but here I do think he must surely have realized the nature of the scenario he was describing.


I agree; but even then, we need to understand how it was possible. I see what you mean by "incredible," but I think this case is entirely different from the Elrond thing - that case is more like "how is it possible that Orcs exist? The One Ring is scientifically absurd" kind of thing, which is irrelevant criticism within the fantasy setting (internally irrelevant, I mean; it would certainly be legitmate to criticize some fantasy novel that is altoghether incredulous on scientific grounds). But the Balrogs' case is _internally _problematic. If the Balrogs could run or fly at 5000 miles per hour at any time, which is by itself okay since this is fantasy, the fact that they never use such an incredible speed to their benefit ever again is very strange. With that supersonic speed they could have confounded an entire Elf-army or done some very damaging guerilla attacks. 

I'm not sure what Tolkien was thinking, but the only explanation I can think of is that the Balrogs, being Maiar (I know, when this was first written the Balrogs probably weren't Maiar, but I'm just looking for an internal explanation) and closely tied to their master, had some kind of super adrenaline surge that boosted their speed when Melkor was in severe danger. Or that Melkor himself could boost the Balrogs' speed by magic.


----------



## Durin's Bane (Oct 22, 2008)

Disscussing balrogs again? Even though there aren't enough quotes to support either case?
What if they had a supply of power for situations like this one? Or something like an adrenaline rush?

Point is we know nothing about balrogs cause there isn't much written. All we can do is guess.
My bet is it was an adrenaline rush, that's why they ran so fast


----------



## Elthir (Oct 22, 2008)

Burzum said:


> I agree; but even then, we need to understand how it was possible. I see what you mean by "incredible," but I think this case is entirely different from the Elrond thing - that case is more like "how is it possible that Orcs exist? The One Ring is scientifically absurd" kind of thing, which is irrelevant criticism within the fantasy setting (internally irrelevant, I mean; it would certainly be legitmate to criticize some fantasy novel that is altoghether incredulous on scientific grounds).


 
The Elrond case is different. As I say, each case is different (though one could find commonality too, generally speaking), but that was just an example where I would _not_ like to resolve a problem -- the implication there being of course that it never occurred to me that someone would need a 'mundane' answer to how the flood was raised in the first place.



> But the Balrogs' case is _internally _problematic. If the Balrogs could run or fly at 5000 miles per hour at any time, which is by itself okay since this is fantasy, the fact that they never use such an incredible speed to their benefit ever again is very strange. With that supersonic speed they could have confounded an entire Elf-army or done some very damaging guerilla attacks.


 
We could accept the fantasy in general, but that makes them too powerful, I agree. So let's change the _if_ in your statement then, so to speak, and say they can't go that fast. And that's part of the point behind raising the Quenta and the Orcs. This is no ordinary quarrel of thieves and no ordinary rescue of course, and here we have amazing players, yes, but the Reader no more has to fill in the details with impossible speed (something problematic) than he or she does with the Quenta.

I know I'm harping on the same string now, so I'll add something new to the thread, something that still doesn't resolve the matter of course! but anyway: 'Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed; and it is sung that the axe smoked in the black blood of the troll-guard of Gothmog until it withered...'

Some bring up this quote to argue that it seems odd for Gothmog, if a flying creature, to have a guard of Trolls. If he could fly, and was a lord of Balrogs, why not use the brethren Balrogs for a guard, for example. Of course, one could punch holes in this too... but one thing we now know about this text that was a bit uncertain for a long time, is that it is not an editorial addition from Christopher Tolkien, due to his general commentary in _The Children of Húrin._

So some defense against that specific 'attack' has been updated at least.


----------



## Burzum (Oct 23, 2008)

I think it could have been this, then...

...that Balrogs usually couldn't fly, but at that moment, the adrenaline rush gave them the power to *both *move at an extremely fast speed *and *fly.


----------



## kms81 (Oct 24, 2008)

There's the possibility also that the Balrogs "felt" Melkor's return and were set out to meet him while he and Ungoliant were still making the passage across the ice. (no direct support from the texts, though it does have the advantage of leaving enough wiggle room for the "Wings" and "No Wings" camps to simply agree to differ)

Either that, or the battle between two of the most powerful beings in Arda raged on for several days, though I would have thought that Tolkien would have mentioned this were it the case.

(Wow. My first post here and I stumble into the Balrog Wings(tm) debate. Personally, I lean toward the "Wings" side of the debate, though I admit I'm influenced by my first exposure to Tolkien being the Bakshi film, so I will also swear blind that they wore big fluffy slippers.)


----------



## dacman (Jan 18, 2009)

Okay, as another fairly new poster, i will be completely open to criticism and downright denial of my ideas, that being said:
remember Gandalf vs. Balrog? if Balrogs could fly, why didn't Durin's Bane fly up from the giant pit? Why would Gandalf collapse a bridge under a flying creature? 
also, regarding the inability of balrogs to shapeshift, Durin's bane had a shadow that stretched when he entered the room with the bridge, so I think it possible that the Balrogs were intangible creatures that maintained contact with this world through their swords and whips, kind of how the Nazgul maintain contact with this world through their swords and cloaks.
Being intangible, it follows that they could freely disperse and recollect their shadow and fire, concentrating it to make it stronger, and dispelling it to cover a large area, etc. 
I just thought of something...Perhaps Balrogs could shapeshift _wings_. This would allow them to fly, and perhaps they could only shapeshift that thoroughly after long periods of preparation (I'm imagining it as a kind of demonic meditation), which would explain why balrogs don't just suddenly sprout wings and other appendages.
lastly, there are other methods of aerial travel than flying. perhaps the Balrogs jumped great distances like the Hulk, or could line-of-sight teleport. this would enable them to cover much more distance than simply running, and may have been able to get them to Melkor in time


----------



## Bucky (Jan 19, 2009)

Balrogs didn't fly because they didn't have wings.....

The 'wings' were a metaphor for Darkness.....

(Bangs head against the wall)

'And the shadow reached out _like two great wings'_

'The fire in it died, _but the darkness grew....and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and it's wings were were spread from wall to wall'_

See: 

In the first quote: The shadow = 'two great wings'

The second quote: 'The darkness grew', then, 'it's wings were spread from wall to wall'.......

We see shadow & darkness are the same thing if we read the passage in it's entirety. Shadow has just been called 'two great wings', then told 'the darkness (shadow) grew'.....

It's just obvious Tolkien means that the following 'wings 'are the same 'darkness' (shadow), not 2 wings that suddenly pop out.









dacman said:


> Okay, as another fairly new poster, i will be completely open to criticism and downright denial of my ideas, that being said:
> remember Gandalf vs. Balrog? if Balrogs could fly, why didn't Durin's Bane fly up from the giant pit? Why would Gandalf collapse a bridge under a flying creature?
> also, regarding the inability of balrogs to shapeshift, Durin's bane had a shadow that stretched when he entered the room with the bridge, so I think it possible that the Balrogs were intangible creatures that maintained contact with this world through their swords and whips, kind of how the Nazgul maintain contact with this world through their swords and cloaks.
> Being intangible, it follows that they could freely disperse and recollect their shadow and fire, concentrating it to make it stronger, and dispelling it to cover a large area, etc.
> ...




Well, in the text the Balrog is described:

'It was like a great shadow, in the middle was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater.'

It appears there is a solid form in the middle of the 'shadow & 'flame' that changes back & forth in direct contrast to one another.

This in no way ever indicates that the balrog can do anything except remain that 'man-shape but greater' & increase or decrease fire & shadow/darkness.

When the Balrog in engulfed in water, it does become different, it becomes 'a thing of slime, stronger than a strangling snake'. This however, does not mean it has no arms or legs.....

In fact, he must have: "Ever he _clutched me_ and ever I hewed him, till at last _he fled into dark tunnels."_

A snake does not 'clutch', no can it 'flee' very well.
So, we can assume Durin's Bane is still in that same 'man-shape, only greater', just slimey, not firey.

When it leaves the caverns, it immediately becomes a Balrog again, as Gandalf says,'he burst into new flame'.

And, let us note, when Gandalf 'throws down his enemy', he 'broke the mountainside where he smote it in his ruin'

Sounds like a solid type object perhaps even 'blowing up' to me......


And of course, not one place, nowhere, is there a shread of evidence to suggest Balrogs could fly......

Or actually had wings.

Yet, I know I'm banging my head against a wall.


----------



## Úlairi (Jan 19, 2009)

Can Balrogs fly?

Does a bear sh*t in the woods?

*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


----------



## Illuin (Jan 19, 2009)

> Originally posted by Úlairi
> 
> _Can Balrogs fly?_
> 
> _Does a bear sh*t in the woods?_


 

I guess that means yes. I have always preferred; _"Is a duck’s ass water tight"?_ 

I would agree with Bucky unequivocally if it were not for one little problem I have. The Istari could be slain (in the flesh). Of course, they were Maia, but their shell (body) was flesh, and could be broken as easily as the body of an Elf or a Man. When Gandalf confronted the Balrog on the Bridge of Khazad-dûm and fell into the abyss, I think it‘s safe to say that it was a long way down. 

It doesn't give specifics in the book, but let’s just take the movie version for a reference. In the opening scene of TTT, Gandalf is pulled into the abyss with the Balrog. They fall for about 72 seconds. They would reach their terminal velocity about 13 seconds into the fall after falling about 575 meters (1,880 feet), and would be traveling approximately 195 kilometers/hour (120 miles/hour). With another minute of falling before hitting the water, they would have fallen another 3230 meters (about two miles). So, at least in the movie version of TTT, the abyss was about 3,800 meters, or 12,400 feet deep (in case anyone was ever wondering ). As far as a sheer drop (base to summit), no mountain in the continental US or the Alps is that high. 

How could Gandalf (housed in a flesh body like the rest of us) survive a 3,800 meter fall, slamming into the lake at 195km/h, unless the surface area of the two falling/fighting enemies was dramatically increased to create a parachute effect to slow them down significantly before they hit the water? Perhaps the Balrog couldn’t "fly", but a pair of canopies or flat surfaces of some sort projecting from it’s sides certainly would have served this purpose quite nicely . I know it’s only fantasy, but this would at least add some realism to surviving a two mile plunge.


----------



## Úlairi (Jan 19, 2009)

You're forgetting the inherent power of the _hröar_ of the Istari (and the Elves also) in your calculations there Illuin. Also, if the Balrog had wings; perhaps it did create the parachute effect you were looking for or they may have glided through the abyss...

*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


----------



## Illuin (Jan 20, 2009)

> Originally posted by Úlairi
> _You're forgetting the inherent power of the hröar of the Istari (and the Elves also) in your calculations there Illuin_


 






Give me your estimated value for the total potential inherent power of the Istari Hröar (μΙΨ), and I’ll factor it in. Remember, we’re dealing with _spiritual energy,_ so it’s likely the "_speed of light limitation"_ would have to be removed (i.e. *E = mc2* - where the value for the speed of light *"c"* would have to be _increased_). We would still have to factor in the tensile stress coordinate _SU_ or σ*UTS *for the average flesh body .

No seriously, I wouldn’t bet on old Greyhame surviving a tumble off the Golden Gate Bridge, much less a two mile plus fall, unless he hitched a ride upon a little wing flappage conveniently provided by his plummeting foe.


----------



## Alcuin (Jan 20, 2009)

Well, Tolkien did draw (or doodle) an emblem for the Mordor Special Mission Flying Corps:


----------

