# deciding their fate?



## timgolfin (Feb 18, 2010)

why can arwen and luthien choose their fate? and the half eleven, why was it down to their own choice? surly their doom isnt purely down to their own decision? surly it is down to illuvatar to decide who has mans 'gift' and who must remain


----------



## Bucky (Feb 18, 2010)

Because they were HALF mortal and HALF immortal. 

And the author wrote it that way. 

Tour being counted among the Elvenkind, that's a bit more of a mystery that makes no sense if you ask me.


----------



## Firawyn (Feb 18, 2010)

I think that (another fine example of the analogical factors that Tolkien did not do purposely) they DID have a choice in the matter.

Like in Christianity, God gives us free will, even though realistically, he knows long before we do what choice we're going to make. I think it's the same here...that they did indeed have a choice, but it appeared that there was no choice because the choice that Arwen and Luthien both made was...well, their destiny. They could have chosen to fight destiny, but didn't. 

That's my opinion on the matter, anyhow.


----------



## r.j.c. (Feb 24, 2010)

This may have been asked many times but what was the fate of the sons of Elrond ? They at least stayed in Middle Earth for a while.


----------



## Astrance (Feb 24, 2010)

I think they chose the Elves' fate, since they went to Aman.


----------



## Alcuin (Feb 24, 2010)

Lúthien sang for Mandos a song of all the woes of Men and Elves in Middle-earth and begged him for a hearing before the Valar to let her join Beren in his fate. Mandos, who never before was moved nor ever moved again, was moved and acquiesced. The Valar agreed – not on a whim, but after consultation with Eru. By Lúthien’s choice, the Maiar and the Eldar entered into the lineage of Men, and the line of Lúthien was prophesied never to fail.

Arwen was presumably given a choice because the children of Elrond, unlike the children of Elros, inherited his choice as a Peredhil. By the choice of Arwen, the noble heritage of the lineage of the Kings of Men was renewed. 

Within the bounds of Tolkien’s subcreation, the permissions given Lúthien and Arwen are (presumably) divinely inspired in them and divinely ordained as exceptional. By the same token, Tuor was (apparently) counted among the Noldor and hence among the Elves. I don’t know if it matters that Lúthien and Arwen are female and chose to be among the Second Kindred, and Tuor, a male, chose to be among the First Kindred, but that is there, too.

Tolkien specifically says that the choice of Elladan and Elrohir is not revealed in his texts. Speculation runs rife as to which decision they made, and whether they chose alike or, as had their father and their Uncle Elros, chose differently.


----------



## Aredhel Alatàr (Mar 18, 2010)

They chose to stay, but it was also their destiny. Arwen was part mortal, but Luthien was part Maia and part Elf and Idril, the other Elf maiden that was bound to a Man, was pure Elf. Now, Arwen's case is special, as her father Elrond had been given a choice, and she and her brothers could choose too: whether to follow him in Aman and become immortal, or remain in Middle Earth and die. However this concerned Elladhan and Elrohir as well, and not her alone.

In any case, an Elf like Idril, an Half-elven, Half-Maia creature like Lùthien would technically possess no such thing as free will: that is specifically Eru's gift to Men, and the Vala themselves do not know fully their role in the history of the world. We have an example of this in the story of Finduilas: she fell for the human Tùrin (as was her destiny), but Gwindor reminded her that her love was fated to be unhappy, as only for superior purposes and quite rarely would Elves and Men be allowed to wed. We see it also in the story of Aegnor, who fell for the human maiden Andreth: he died before he could even declare himself.

Drawing sums: Arwen's case is special, so yes, she chooses. Lùthien and Idril do not.

Side note: Tuor being counted among the Eldar makes no sense to me too. But then his was a family of exceptional destiny: his cousin Tùrin dies, but there are prophecies about him coming back from the dead for the Final Battle and dealing Morgoth his death blow.

Aredhel


----------



## Astrance (Mar 19, 2010)

Well, I don't think that Tuor being counted among the Eldar is that strange. I always understood it as a kind of balance made up by Mandos : one Elf dies, one Man shares the Eldar's fate. Those of Lúthien's kin obviously had the freedom to choose.

Now I think of it, the fate of Elrond & Co is like that of Schrödinger's cat. As long as you don't open the box, the cat is both dead and alive. As long as they don't make a choice, they have elvish life, but can die a human death. But that's the geekette in me.


----------



## Bucky (Mar 19, 2010)

Those saying Luthien was 'part Maia' are missing one BIG fact: Her mother bore her in the form of an Elf......

Therefore, while Luthien certainly seemed to posess some 'spiritual' giftings from her mother (Tolkien even says Melian 'leant great power' to Thingol), she is biologically 100% Elf.

As for The Sons Of Elrond, I am positive there is a note in (probably) Appendix A somewhere which says roughly that 'Elrond's CHILDREN (not just Arwen) had a choice to depart with him or remain in Middle-earth and become mortal. Therefore all chances in The War of the Ring were frought with sorrow for Master Elrond.' 

This paraphrased quote (which I WILL dig out if challanged on but am too lazy to bother finding at 11PM after a long day) seems to imply that Elrond's two sons chose mortality just by staying in Middle-earth when their father departed at the end of the Third Age.


----------



## Elthir (Mar 20, 2010)

Bucky said:


> (...) As for The Sons Of Elrond, I am positive there is a note in (probably) Appendix A somewhere which says roughly that 'Elrond's CHILDREN (not just Arwen) had a choice to depart with him or remain in Middle-earth and become mortal. Therefore all chances in The War of the Ring were frought with sorrow for Master Elrond.'
> 
> This paraphrased quote (which I WILL dig out if challanged on but am too lazy to bother finding at 11PM after a long day) seems to imply that Elrond's two sons chose mortality just by staying in Middle-earth when their father departed at the end of the Third Age.


 
Also, although I'm not positive about this (someone correct me if I'm wrong here), Tolkien had not told whether or not Elrond's sons remained in Middle-earth until the 1960s, in the second edition, so (if so) much later than the description (which hails from a letter) that the end of the sons of Elrond is not told. JRRT added at least two references to the sons for the second edition, IIRC.

Tolkien also seems to be working on _The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen_ (noting Elrond's words in that text) _after_ he wrote the letter in which he said that the end of the sons is not told -- although in that letter it's also noted that they delayed their choice and remained for a while.

On this delay, it seems _possible_ (at least) that Tolkien might have thought better of this after he wrote the letter, did not tell the end of Elrond's sons in any case (in 1954-55, again, unless I've missed some reference in the first edition), but for the second edition decided to reveal something about them, which arguably makes one wonder, at least, with respect to their choice.

Well, it's a theory! but the dating is interesting here. Of course 'with Elrond' and other statements might be interpreted differently than 'with him' as in '_when_ Elrond sailed'... but his passing Oversea was a pretty significant event in my opinion, and although the passing of time would admittedly be different to such beings, did the Sons need more time? Arwen had chosen in any case; and how much more time could they delay?

The passage Bucky is referring to, and other statements in Appendix A, have me leaning toward the notion that the Sons of Elrond chose mortality, or as Robert Foster puts it, they _seem_ to have chosen mortality.


----------



## e.Blackstar (Jun 12, 2010)

*I hope this run-on paragraph makes sense. Sorry. *

I was about to ask a similar question...more specifically, HOW were the half-elven able to choose? I didn't find much in my quick flip through the appendices, and Wikipedia merely made a point about the choice being "granted" by the Valar. So...what actually happens? Is this choice or the process every described in any way? Luthien died of grief so it never really came up with her, but what about Elrond and Elros, not to mention Arwen? Obviously 'being Elvish' is far more than just culture or genetics, so what is that divine gift, and how can it be put on the table? It seems obvious that though it can be given up, it can't be given back by the Valar...as someone pointed out earlier in the thread, Elrond's children (or any elf, really) can choose a mortal life but Man (even the Numenorians) cannot elevate themselves to immortality with the Elves. Any thoughts or evidence?


----------

