# Melkor or Sauron?



## Corvis (Mar 27, 2005)

Whose worse, Melkor or Sauron? To come up with that answer I think you need to compare the two. Let’s start with Melkor first. He brought forth the first destruction of Middle Earth, war with the Valar, the creation of the orcs, and interacted much with balrogs. Now Sauron had brought war in Middle Earth in the second and third age. He also created the one ring of power and the ring wraiths, and brought much death and despair to Middle Earth for thousands of years. Personally I think Melkor is worse, but my opinion is not the point of this thread but for other’s to post theirs, so go ahead any who wish to.


----------



## Manwe (Mar 28, 2005)

Hmmmmmmm this is an interesting one. On the one hand you've got war with the Valar and the destruction of Middle Earth, on the other you've got war with Men, Dwarves and Elves and if he hadn't been stopped he would have made Middle-Earth a living helll, literally  . Melkor made those nasty Orcs while Sauron made the One Ring, the Ringwraths and also made that nasty guy called Gollum. He also caused the Uruk-Hai to be made for him. Personally, I'd have to say Sauron. The whole creation of the One Ring, I think, outweighs what Melkor did. But thats just my opinion, which doesn't count for much


----------



## Greenwood (Mar 28, 2005)

In the beginning Melkor was the equal of Manwe and the two were second only to Iluvatar in power. Sauron was merely a servant of Melkor. It was Melkor who brought evil and discord into the world at the creation. It was Melkor who destroyed the Two Trees, stole the Silmarils and committed the first known murder. Sauron's evil would not have existed without Melkor. There really is no comparison between the two. Melkor is far worse than Sauron.


----------



## Corvis (Mar 28, 2005)

Manwe said:


> Melkor made those nasty Orcs while Sauron made the One Ring, the Ringwraths and also made that nasty guy called Gollum.


 
Sauron didn't create Gollum _himself_ nor did he intend to. Remember that Gollum had found the ring in the river Anduin by accident (sort of like how Bilbo found it in Gollum's cave).

Also Manwe remeber that at one pont Sauron was Melkor's lieutenant or _apprentice_ you could say. So basically Sauron learned everything from Melkor which would make Melkor the wiser and more superior.


----------



## Annaheru (Mar 28, 2005)

in Valaquenta we have these lines: "In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part, *and was only less evil that his master in that for long he served another and not himself* [emphasis added]." So Sauron is less evil than Morgoth essentially because he didn't start evil; had Morgoth been subserviant to Gorthaur than the latter would have been more evil.


Also Manwe (as an aside), there is a theory that Morgoth gave Sauron responsibility for overseeing the orc project, and that this was when Sauron started to devised the Black Speach (which seems to be a mixture of Valarin and Avarin)*. Therefore in accordance with the above quote: Morgoth gets credit for thinking it up, and Sauron for putting it into execution. 


*(it should be noted that Morgoth originally devised a tongue for his servants/slaves. Also we have no direct evidence for Sauron's participation in Orc making, just clues from an analysis of the languages Tolkien created.)


----------



## Confusticated (Mar 28, 2005)

Just curious. Where does it say that the Black Speech is a mixture of Avarin and Valarin?


----------



## Gil-Galad (Mar 28, 2005)

As far as I can remember we have already discussed similar question some time before....

First of all let's have in mind the status of both Melkor and Sauron.Melkor was equal to Manwe and in fact closest to Eru's thoughts.He was the only who has wandered in the Void.We will not make a mistake if we say that Melkor was the one who brought evil into Arda,that he was the first and main sourse of evil.Sauron was just his servant and in the best situation his student.

If we compare the enemies they had we would definitely see that Melkor had greater enemies in every meaning of the word than Sauron.Melkor dared to stand against the Valar,against the greatest elves and he did it with success(before the 
War of Wrath) Even the Valar had difficulties with him during their War of Wrath...yes they won,but still Melkor was the most difficult opponent they had ever.At the same time Sauron dominated only over the last remnants of the elves in Me and the fading line of the men.He was defeated by the Numenoreans and by the Last Alliance...enemies far more weak than the first High Elves in ME... .And if the Valar had difficulties with Melkor,they were able to defeat Sauron without any problem,but they were not allowed to do it.
Sauron seems to be worse than Melkor,only because of his actions during the III age.But during this age we should not forget that in fact he had no serious enemies to fight with......


And finally if we compare the "great deeds "made by both Melkor and Sauron we will see that Melkor is much much worse ....
1.Destroyed the two trees 
2.Caused Feanor's oath
3.Cause probably the greatest tragedy for the elves,who in their wrath followed Feanor to Arda.
4.All his deeds in Arda during I age(no need to mention them all)
5.Hurin's curse...has anyone suffered more than Hurin and his family "thanks to " Melkor.
6 Destruction of all elven Kingdoms.
7...I almost forgot the fact that he was the first who found the Secondborn...
there can be said so many other things about Melkor's "deeds"

Sauron's list is not that big and "great" as you can see:
1.Helped Melkor in Ist age
2. Caused the Fall of Numenor
3. Made the One Ring
4.Almost destroyed Gondor...
and many others of course.

What I am trying to show is that there can not be any comparisson between Melkor and Sauron in terms of "who is worse"....and that Sauron was far behind Melkor ..........


----------



## Helm (Mar 28, 2005)

Greenwood said:


> ...committed the first known murder...


Who did he kill? I thought that one of the Elves in Amen was the first to merder.


----------



## Periharadan (Mar 29, 2005)

Helm said:


> Who did he kill?



Finwë, maybe?


----------



## Maggot (Mar 29, 2005)

Correct Periharaden Melkor murdered Finwe and stole the silmarils. Melkor is definately the worst because without him Sauron would never of been evil, without Melkor, Sauron would of kept serving Aule (Sauron was a maiar at the beginning of days in Valinor see Silmarillion). Also Melkor tortured elves and made the orc race i'm pretty sure that Sauron made some but it was Melkor's idea. He also wrecked the two trees Laurelin and Telperion and killed the greatest elf knig ever Fingolfin (half-brother to Feanor, brother to Finarfin and son of Finwe). By the way what happened to Finarfin? Did he forsake the rebellion and stay in Valinor or did he die?


----------



## Helm (Mar 29, 2005)

Yea he did.


----------



## Elfarmari (Mar 29, 2005)

Melkor's original goal was dominion over Arda, to which end he put forth his own power into the very earth. Realizing that Arda did not belong to him, and that he could not order it how he saw fit (those minor matters of Eru being the creator, the Valar the appointed guardians, and Men not bound by the Music), he decided to destroy it. I think I read this in Morgoth's Ring, or maybe Peoples of Middle-earth (I don't own either, unfortunately), but Morgoth was the ultimate Nihilist, who would have destroyed all Elves, Men, and Dwarves, and then proceeded to destroy his own armies as well, until nothing at all was left. What he couldn't control totally, he wanted to destroy. 

Sauron, however, wanted control and order, but not ultimate destruction. He would have been content to be the overlord of Elves, Men, Dwarves, and Orcs, without destroying them. I think this difference is evidenced with how Melkor and Sauron dealt with their enemies. Melkor destroyed Gondolin utterly, no negotiation, the only survivors being those who escaped through the secret tunnel. Sauron, however, desires lordship. Through his Mouth, Sauron dictates terms, under which the Men of the West and their allies would be his slaves. 

I would say ultimate destruction - Melkor - is worse even than slavery - Sauron.


----------



## Alatar (Mar 30, 2005)

would say ultimate destruction - Melkor - is worse even than slavery - Sauron.


Yes that is true and if therewas no melkor there would have been no discord in the music and therefore no evil! it even says that aman was still visable in the 2nd age "as a memorial of what the world would have been is melkor had not cast his shadow on the world"


----------



## bauglir (Mar 30, 2005)

melkor, no question about it.


----------



## Alatar (Mar 31, 2005)

Melkor was a vala.

Sauron was a maia.

Melkor mared all of Arda in the first war.

Sauron destroyied erigion.

Melkor destroyed all the elf kingdoms in the first age.

Sauron croupted the Gwaith-I-Mirdain and caused the rings to be made.

Melkor croupted the Noldor and resulted in the doom of mandos and the death of Finwe, Elwe, Feanor, Fingolfen, Finrod, Fingon, Orodreth, Angrod , Aegnor, Turgon and Dior.

Sauron killed Gil-galad(but Gil- galad and Elendil killed sauron)

originly posted by bauglir



> melkor, no question about it.


----------



## Corvis (Mar 31, 2005)

Alatar said:


> Sauron killed Gil-galad(but Gil- galad and Elendil killed sauron


 
That dosn't make sense. How does Gil-galad kill Sauron when Gil-galad was dead??


----------



## Alatar (Mar 31, 2005)

It says


> He[sauron] wresteled with Gil-Galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of elendil broke under him as he fell. But sauron also was thrown down and isildur cut the one ring from his hand


so i asumed sauron was dead or at least unconceis when islildur got off his butt and did somthing. I mean would sauron let some one walk up and cut off the ring??
"Hi sauron i'm isildur you just killed the kings of the west, now your on the floor having taken out the last male elf who was born in aman and I need that ring of yours hold still this may hurt a tad..."????


----------



## bauglir (Mar 31, 2005)

Posted by Alatar


> He[sauron] wresteled with Gil-Galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of elendil broke under him as he fell. But sauron also was thrown down and isildur cut the one ring from his hand
> 
> so i asumed sauron was dead or at least unconceis when islildur got off his butt and did somthing. I mean would sauron let some one walk up and cut off the ring??
> "Hi sauron i'm isildur you just killed the kings of the west, now your on the floor having taken out the last male elf who was born in aman and I need that ring of yours hold still this may hurt a tad..."????


 

i believe "thrown down" means "slain" there. Tolkien is just trying to sound fancier


----------



## Ingwë (Apr 1, 2005)

Sauron was killed by Isildur Elendil`s son. Sauron himself have killed Elendil the Tall. And it is said Gil-Gal was slain by Sauron behind the Black Gate.


----------



## Alatar (Apr 1, 2005)

I think Isildur just cut the ring from saurons hand.Maybe tolkein envision a peter jackson style death of sauuron from that act but that is all he did, it was elendil and gil-galad who knocked sauron down(or killed him)


----------



## YayGollum (Apr 1, 2005)

For a rant about Mel, go here ---> http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?t=17280 That should be proof enough to show that Sauron is obviously more evil. But then, it mostly talks about how cool and unevil Mel is. My analysis of Sauron ---> 

Well, first of all, he hurt poor Smeagol. Sounds achingly evil to me. But then, Mel never had the chance or a reason. Yes, if he had a reason, Mel would have done the same thing. oh well. Let me see here. Something more substantial for why Sauron is evil. I don't know. I could go on long rants on how popularly thought of good typed characters are pure evil. I don't like to dream up ideas on how a popularly thought of evil typed character is more evil than another. Hm. He hurt poor Smeagol. He wasn't a very gracious host anytime that I have noticed. He wasn't very respectful to his minions. Oo! He messed with people's brains! There we go. The most evil of all achingly evil powerses! He messed with some random Numenoreans. He made Rings Of Power that messed with people's brains. Mel never did evil things like that. At least not that I can remember. At least not in the same way that Sauron did. Sauron messed with people's brains in evil as well as supernaturally magical typed ways. Mel only messed with people's brains the pure as well as old-fashioned way. As far as I can remember.


----------



## Ingwë (Apr 4, 2005)

Melkor or Sauron... 

Melkor:
1. Vala
2. He destroyed the Two trees
3. He took the Silmarils and killed Fëanor's father
4. His servants killed Fëanor
5. Melkor destroyed the elven kingdoms in Beleriand
6. Killed a lot of fair elves and their kings

Sauron
1. Maia
2. He was a servant of Melkor (it is said he was as evil as Melkor himself but Sauron was only a servant of the great enemy)
3. He made the One ring
4. He killed Celebrimbor
5. He almost destroyed Eregion
6. He tried destroying Gondor
7. His servants destroyed Arnor

I think Melkor was more dangerous then Sauron. Melkor is worse.


----------



## Arvegil (Apr 4, 2005)

Hmm... A metaphysical question with no obviously correct answer.


Which is worse: Pol Pot or Stalin? A nihilistic evil dedicated to destruction of everything not contained within its own limited vision, or a power-concentrating, fascistic evil bent on yoking all creation to its own vision?

I think Tolkien's essay in _Myths Transformed_ indicates that he believed Melkor's nihilistic evil to be the greater evil compared to Sauron's controlling evil. But, reasonable minds can differ.


----------



## YayGollum (Apr 5, 2005)

Mel
1. Explain why it is evil to be called a Valar type thing.
2. No, he didn't. Poor guy. Being blamed for evil things.
3. Ummm... So?  Well, did Mel make them so irresistible? No. Ha! Poor Mel. Being blamed for things that aren't his fault.
4. He didn't force them to. That was their evil decision.
5. Good riddance, yes? Not evil, no. Nasssty elveses!
6. Did he? What is Mel's kill count? I thought that he sat on his throne most of the time.

Sauron
1. How is it evil to be called a Maiar type of thing? oh well. But he wasn't a very good one, was he? He was supposed to be subservient to Aule, but the evil dude abandoned his divinely ordained vocation to have fun with shapeshifting and commanding things about. Oh, pure evil!
2. Is it evil to admire a great mastermind? No. Is it evil to try to help the poor guy out with his dreams? No. But still. Sauron is much more evil. He wasn't a very good servant of Mel, was he? Sure, he did plenty of stuff in the name of Mel, but in the end, how loyal was the guy?  *sniff* Poor Mel.
3. Is it evil to be creative? Is it evil to possess the desire to see how far you can go with a talent? I think not! But still, look at what happened to poor Smeagol! *bawls* Evil Sauron.
4. I won't try to make Sauron look bad there. I never liked Celebrimbor. Who did, anyways? The dude was never given much of a personality. Yay for Sauron's mercy!
5. Same as Sauron's fourth point. Pretty much.
6. Garn! I am thinking that Sauron is less as well as less evil now! But still. He was obviously more evil than Mel. Thanks to the other points. Phew.
7. Well, that is the same as Mel's fourth point, but oh well.


----------



## Gil-Galad (Apr 5, 2005)

Well,Yay,I see your point and I would agree with you on one thing.

As I have said in one Lecture on Evil in the Halls of Tolkienology,Sauron did try to improve,to develope himself as(respectively to improve the Evil in ME).

He did have some "good shoots" ,but as a whole,just like Melkor he was losing his might and abilities.I do agree that he had some chances of becoming better than his teacher,especially during I age,when he was able to "work" without being disturbed,thanks to Melkor's success in his wars with the Elves....but in the end he did not manage to go further than his master....



> I think Tolkien's essay in Myths Transformed indicates that he believed Melkor's nihilistic evil to be the greater evil compared to Sauron's controlling evil.



Very good said Arvegil.....Sauron desired only power...and Melkor desired nothing but destruction......


----------



## Arvegil (Jun 8, 2005)

Gil-Galad said:


> Sauron desired only power...and Melkor desired nothing but destruction......


 
Well, not just power. His original downfall was an obsession with order and concerted action, and a dislike with inefficiency and wastefulness. He saw concentrated power as a means to that end, and Melkor as the one most likely to concentrate that power; in doing so, he fell victim to the "evil means to a good end" trap, and was consumed by it.


----------



## Alatar (Jun 9, 2005)

Well i think that melkor is by far worse, i mean do you want toa slave with the rest of the world, or do you want the world to die?


----------



## ingolmo (Jun 12, 2005)

This is a good argument, but I don't think fair enough for Sauron. Melkor was a Valar, the most powerful along with Manwe. Sauron was only a Maiar, gifted with less powers than Melkor. So that way Melkor would have the ability to do more than Sauron. Still, Sauron managed to do great evil things without the power of a Valar. So I think, that comparitavely, seeing that Melkor was a Vala, and Sauron was a Maia, I think Sauron was greater. 
Also, you didn't note that Sauron, when taken to Numenor as prisoner, by cunning, rose to be Tar-whoever's councillor. He managed to convince the Numenoreans to break their oath and to go into Valinor. That must have taken a good deal of craftyness.
By the way, this is a very nice thread. Why didn't you make it a poll?


----------



## Barliman Butterbur (Jun 12, 2005)

It was Melkor. He was the original Bad Seed in this whole thing, starting from the very first few moments of the Music of Ilúvatar — just as Tolkien planned it! 

Barley


----------



## Alatar (Jun 12, 2005)

Hmmm barley did you say that on the true villan site aswell?  
But i could not have said it better than that, melkor ruined the world! He made evil!


----------



## ingolmo (Jun 13, 2005)

Okay, in terms of evil, it was Melkor, but in power and strength and cunningness, it was Sauron.


----------



## Barliman Butterbur (Jun 13, 2005)

Alatar said:


> Hmmm barley did you say that on the true villan site aswell?
> But i could not have said it better than that, melkor ruined the world! He made evil!



Some things are worth repeating...

Barley


----------



## Alatar (Jun 13, 2005)

ingolmo said:


> Okay, in terms of evil, it was Melkor, but in power and strength and cunningness, it was Sauron.


But in power and strenght and cunningness!?!?
I would have settled for maye be cunningness.
Melkor is the greatest of the valar, he who arises in might!


----------



## ingolmo (Jun 14, 2005)

Respectively, seeing that Melkor is a Vala, and Sauron is a Maia, Sauron is more powerful, cunning, and strong. 


> Melkor is the greatest of the Valar, He who arises in might!


Are you some type of his minion, or what?!


----------



## Illuin (Jun 2, 2008)

I realize this is an ancient thread, but I mean come on! Sauron got his butt kicked by a pooch. It's like comparing Stalin to Satan. Melkor’s “ring” was the entire Earth; Sauron’s ring was…..well…. about 2.5 square "*INCHES*" (_196,950,711 square *miles* [510,100,000 square *kilometers*]_ compared to about _2.5 square *inches*). _Sauron was indeed clever, but don’t forget he had Morgoth’s creations and handiwork already available to him when he was the head cheese (convenient). No comparison. Had Sauron been the chief antagonist in the _*mighty days*_ of the Eldar and Men (with no Morgoth) in the First Age, he would have been disposed of real quick.


----------

