# Barolgs vs Dragons, which is stronger?



## Hisoka Morrow (Aug 2, 2020)

As you've known that these 2 guys were all ranked top classes for Morgoth's order of combat, yet it seems that Dragons were always his final trump cards(Like the battle of unnumbered tears as well as the War of Wrath).
Yet when it comes to combat performance, Barolgs seem to be stronger, the best proof was that Dragons were killed by both men and as certain records, while Barolgs got the only killed records by only elves.(Apart from mixed-blood like Eärendil and assuming humans could have killed Balrogs with joining forces with elves like unnumbered tears or War of Wrath.). This conclusion is made according to JRRT's set that elves were much more superior than men on all kinds of combat quality in the 1st Age.
Of course, this doesn't only include combat ability, but also intelligence as well as all kinds of military value, fro instance, Balrogs seem to be more experienced while Dragons are better strategists(EX: _Glaurung_ 's strategy that made Turin GG) 

So...Let's discuss this as the title says, just provide everything you know or you think, all constructive comment are welcome^^


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## Aredheldaedraugh (Aug 13, 2020)

I think that Balrogs are stronger because they were Maiar and as divine Beeings concerning their angelic /demonic powers much more powerful than dragons only a creation by Morgoth.


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## Olorgando (Aug 13, 2020)

I thought I remembered that there had been a discussion like this before, now I found it:









Who would win, Smaug or a Balrog


I'm quite curious what you think




www.thetolkienforum.com


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## Miguel (Aug 13, 2020)

It's more or less a tie. I think it would depend on what dragon.


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## Deleted member 12094 (Aug 14, 2020)

But if Barolgs are the new version 2.0 of Balrogs, then perhaps some of their bugs have been resolved and their functionality improved...! ☺😅


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## Aldarion (Aug 14, 2020)

I believe dragons might actually be stronger. Remember, during War of the Wrath, balrogs were all destroyed along with rest of Morgoth's army, yet we never hear of them impeding Valar's progress. But when winged dragons attacked, Valar were actually pushed back.

OTOH, metaphysical logic goes against this: balrogs were created earlier, before Morgoth's decline set in the earnest and were actually Maiar originally. Thus they should be stronger than dragons, both due to their inherent superior nature and due to their creator's superior state at the moment of their creation.


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## Olorgando (Aug 14, 2020)

That link I posted above to a "Smaug vs. Balrog" thread has made me think. (So you are sufficiently warned! 🤪 )

Perhaps Smaug the Dragon of The Hobbit is a s much an anachronism to dragons as Bilbo Baggins is to a heroic Romance tale (in the categories of Northrop Frye). A heavily armored (sides and back) by scales, and the soft underbelly protected by what must be tons of jewels - can fly? There is an engineer's joke (I believe) that asks the question why there has never been a coal-fired, steam-powered airship, and never mind aeroplane? Because it would be too heavy to ever lift off the ground by more than one order of magnitude with any conceivable wings. Why have battleships never taken to the air? Forget "The Avengers".
Glaurung could be a ground-crawling "tank" when fully grown. Could he have ever taken wing in any conceivable form?

I very seriously doubt it.

Fast forward to the winged dragons in the War of Wrath, led by Ancalagon.
If you follow my reasoning, they need to be aerodynamically efficient and have a wing-lift to mass ration that lets them take to the air. Read skinny and sleek. And when things go wrong with any part of what keeps flying things flying, Newton's Laws of Gravity are merciless. There is no such thing as a flying tank (as the USAAF found out quickly when, despite having been direly warned by the British Royal Airforce, they sent their B-17 "Flying Fortresses" over Europe without fighter cover due to lack of range of the fighters. The German Luftwaffe took a heavy toll. It wasn't until the extremely long-range P-51 Mustang fighters were able to escort the USAAF bombers "there and back again" that they were able to bomb indiscriminately. We are still digging up and defusing almost a bomb a day now, 75 years after the end of the war).

Ancalagon especially may have had, however Morgoth contrived it, especially hot breath. And that surprise of these dragons being able to fly. But those dragons probably wouldn't have lasted three minutes above any target heavily defended by flack anywhere in the world in WW II. Dragon hamburger.

Then there's the issue of from what sources Christopher Tolkien took what he wrote in the published "Silmarillion".
Early on, there were many Balrogs, I'm tempted to say hardly more that slightly better Uruk-hai of the Third Age.
Against those Balrogs, Dragons would massacre with ease.

But against the "at most three or seven", now (?) seen an Maiar, that's a whole different story.
I admit that the whole Ungoliant vs. Melkor story upon arriving in Middle-earth is perhaps the one that has me shaking my head in disbelief if not disgust more than any other. But this is *way* before Melkor begins breeding dragons. The Balrogs racing to Melkor's aid drive Ungoliant away with their fiery whips. Do you think that Melkor would have even batted an eyelash at even Ancalagon's having "puberty issues"? I don't think so.

Would even Ancalagon's fiery breath, hottest of all Dragons ever, have impressed any of the three-or-seven?
Snowball's chance in Angband.
Would the Balrogs' whips, which drove away Ungoliant, have impressed a dragon?
For a few very short seconds perhaps - before they were reduced to dragon hamburger patties, Glaurung, Ancalagon, Smaug, the lot of them.


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## Elthir (Aug 15, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> But against the "at most three or seven", now (?) seen an Maiar, that's a whole different story.




Yep, Balrogs were Maiar by the time of this note, and according to the _Annals of Aman_ -- the abandoned typescript version AAm* section 30: *"*_*And in Utumno he multiplied the race of the evil spirits that followed him, the Umaiar, of whom the chief were those demons whom the Elves afterwards named the Balrogath." *_

CJRT writes that there seems no way to determine with certainty when AAm* was made, but he thinks or feels that it belongs to the early 1950s, and if so, I needn't look further to also say that the Balrogs were Maiar at an external time when they were conceived of as numerous.



CJRT's edits to surviving "Numerous Balrog" passages

Despite Tolkien's famed note to drastically reduce Balrog numbers (and its attending revision to a passage in AAM), so far I've counted 4 surviving references to numerous Balrogs. Here they are -- followed by the *alterations* made to _The Silmarillion_ by Christopher Tolkien:


*1:* *"Wherefore each embassy came with greater force than was agreed, but Morgoth sent the greater, and they were Balrogs. Maidros was ambushed..."* Of The Siege of Angband (Quenta Silmarillion) *[]* *"... but Morgoth sent the more, and there were Balrogs."* Of The Return of the Noldor (The Silmarillion)

*2:* *"Sauron came against Orodreth, the warden of the tower, with a host of Balrogs."* Of the Ruin of Beleriand And the Fall of Fingolfin (Quenta Silmarillion) *[]* *".. named Gorthaur, came against Orodreth, the warden of the tower upon Tol Sirion."* Of The Ruin Of Beleriand (The Silmarillion)

*3:* *"There came wolves and serpents, and there came Balrogs one thousand,..."* Of the Fourth Battle: Nírnaith Arnediad (Quenta Silmarillion) *[]* *"There came wolves and wolfriders, and there came Balrogs, and dragons..."* Of The Fifth Battle (The Silmarillion)

*4.* The Grey Annals contains *"Balrogs a thousand"* §230, but nothing is noted as to any changes in the later 1950s.

Notes to these numbered passages

*1* This description (from the QS tradition) survived into LQS despite a number of other post _Lord of the Rings_ revisions to this chapter.

*2* This example (Orodreth and etc) also was not revised -- with Tolkien even altering §143 of the chapter, but not the "host" of Balrogs passage.

*3* Another survival, but noting CJRT's description under _The Last Chapters Of The Quenta Silmarillion_, possibly JRRT never really got around to "truly" revising this chapter in any case.


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## Alcuin (Aug 15, 2020)

As mentioned, balrogs are _Umaiar_, evil Maiar, fallen angels, demons. Boldog, an early villain in Tolkien’s legendarium, an Umaia that had taken the form of an Orc, fought Thingol. 



Within the context of the story, I think it can be successfully argued that Bombadil, Goldberry, and Ungoliant are Maiar of some sort, as is Huan the Hound of Valinor. In this sense there are a great many lesser spirits inhabiting Arda as various incarnate creatures of their own choosing whose existence preceded Arda’s physical form. Another is Carcharoth, in physical origins a whelp of the werewolf Draugluin, that at Morgoth’s hand “the fire and anguish of hell entered into him, [so that] he became filled with a devouring spirit, tormented, terrible, and strong.” (_Silmarillion_, “Beren and Lúthien”) 

But what of the descendants of these First Age creatures? Ungoliant’s descendants inhabited Ered Gorgoroth: Shelob was one of these. Should we consider Shelob a minor spirit? I don’t think so. The same might be said of dragons. All the dragons of the Second and Third Ages were descendents of those developed by Morgoth in the First. Are they also minor spirits? Again, I say no. As evidence, I note that Melian gave birth to Lúthien, but Lúthien bore the fate of her father Thingol until Manwë made an exception for her. The same, I suggest, of the Mearas, the Lords of Horses, descendents of Oromë’s horse Nahar, a minor spirit, of whom Shadowfax was the greatest and last: the descendants are not minor spirits, but still great creatures of Tolkien’s world. So also the Great Eagles of the Misty Mountains, descendants of Thorondor of the First Age, a minor spirit: these, too, were mortal after the departure of Thorondor. 

Could Ancalagon defeat Gothmog? Who knows? Why would Morgoth waste his vassals in such a contest? 

But in the Third Age, I think it is likely that Sauron planned to use both Smaug the Dragon and the Durin’s Bane, the Balrog, against Galadriel in Lórien and then Elrond in Rivendell. The danger Smaug represented concerned Gandalf so that he became enmeshed in the life of Thorin Oakenshield, dragging Bilbo Baggins in along with him. The Balrog neither he nor any others of the Wise had discovered, excepting perhaps Saruman the Traitor, though Galadriel’s spouse Celeborn was deeply suspicious of the nature of “Durin’s Bane.”


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## Hisoka Morrow (Aug 15, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> That link I posted above to a "Smaug vs. Balrog" thread has made me think. (So you are sufficiently warned! 🤪 )
> 
> Perhaps Smaug the Dragon of The Hobbit is a s much an anachronism to dragons as Bilbo Baggins is to a heroic Romance tale (in the categories of Northrop Frye). A heavily armored (sides and back) by scales, and the soft underbelly protected by what must be tons of jewels - can fly? There is an engineer's joke (I believe) that asks the question why there has never been a coal-fired, steam-powered airship, and never mind aeroplane? Because it would be too heavy to ever lift off the ground by more than one order of magnitude with any conceivable wings. Why have battleships never taken to the air? Forget "The Avengers".
> Glaurung could be a ground-crawling "tank" when fully grown. Could he have ever taken wing in any conceivable form?
> ...


Oh well maybe we can assume that Morgoth got some highly-advanced materials, making those dragons's metabolism effective enough to produce so huge energy maintain their flight, or even making their density horribly adjustable enough so that they can decide when they wanna fly or not(seriously). Yeah, after all, horribly tough armor such as Mithril can compare Modern Body Armor. JRRT has already created bunches of horribly military stuff able to compare modern ones.



Olorgando said:


> Then there's the issue of from what sources Christopher Tolkien took what he wrote in the published "Silmarillion".
> Early on, there were many Balrogs, I'm tempted to say hardly more that slightly better Uruk-hai of the Third Age.
> Against those Balrogs, Dragons would massacre with ease.
> 
> ...


It's obvious the Balrogs use spamming tactic, outnumbering Ungoliant, making them able to take the upper hands at least.
Another thing is that if Barolgs were really tough enough for Morgoth's military operation, then why Morgoth have to create new armed forces?Of course we can assume that Dragons are only better on fighting against elves or particular military operations than Balrogs, while Balrogs got some other advantage in comparison.



Aredheldaedraugh said:


> I think that Balrogs are stronger because they were Maiar and as divine Beeings concerning their angelic /demonic powers much more powerful than dragons only a creation by Morgoth.


Well...it's obvious that even the Created can kick Creator's ass in JRRT's lore(Looking at Isuildur and Sauron, Fingofin and those Barolgs along with Dragons fled from him)


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## Aredheldaedraugh (Aug 15, 2020)

Hisoka Morrow said:


> Well...it's obvious that even the Created can kick Creator's ass in JRRT's lore(Looking at Isuildur and Sauron, Fingofin and those Barolgs along with Dragons fled from him)


It was mere luck Isildur could cut off the ring and it was not clever of Sauron to try (what did he try?) to put his hand on Isildur. It was Isildur‘s chance and a very idiotic and human gesture from Sauron with his hand. But it was not that Isildur or the rest of the armies have been stronger than Sauron, they weren’t.


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## Alcuin (Aug 16, 2020)

Several points here. If we’re talking about Tolkien, who wrote books, stories, and kept lots and lots of notes on his private world, much of which was made public by his son and literary heir Christopher, then we need to keep some things in mind:
No other creature could defeat a Vala, not even a Maia. Both times Morgoth was captured, Tulkas defeated him, and Tulkas came last into Arda after all the other Valar failed to overcome Melkor Morgoth, apparently for that very purpose. Tulkas was the only Vala present in the War of Wrath at the end of the First Age other than Morgoth.
No one and nothing can overcome Eru. If any creature acts in Eru’s despite, as did Melkor and later Sauron, he will ultimately fail (_Silmarillion_, “Ainulindalë”):
And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me [Eru], nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.​
Morgoth did not create Balrogs. They existed independently of him, and along with other Maiar (such as Sauron and lesser Maiar) followed his lead in the Ainulindalë (Great Music) rather than Eru’s.
I don’t recall that Fingolfin fought Glaurung; I could be wrong. I believe that on Glaurung’s first appearance, he was driven back by Fingon and his mounted archers. Two centuries later, in the Dagor Bragollach, Glaurung was thrown against the sons of Fëanor, and again he attacked eastward against Maedhros, the Easterlings, and the Dwarves in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. 
Isildur did not sever the Ring from Sauron’s hand through luck. Gil-galad and Elendil beat him senseless, though both of them died in the event. I think – and I am willing to change my opinion if someone can cite a passage to the contrary – that while Sauron was down, Isildur cut the Ring from his hand. Isildur cutting the Ring from Sauron during battle is, in my opinion, another of Peter Jackson’s rather loose interpretations. According to _Silmarillion_, “Of the Rings of Power”,
at the last the siege [of Barad-dûr] was so strait that Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own. Then Sauron was for that time vanquished, and he forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places; and he took no visible shape again for many long years.​My understanding is that Sauron was _down_, stunned or senseless as a result of the fight on the slopes of Orodruin.
Elves, at least, can kill (“unhouse”) Maiar. Ecthelion killed Gothmog Lord of Balrogs without even the use of his arms, impaling him on the spike of his helmet, and both drowned in the fountain of the king’s court in Gondolin. Glorfindel killed a balrog in the Cirith Thoronath, the Eagles’ Pass, above the vale of Gondolin, when both fell to their deaths. Eärendil killed Ancalagon the Black, and quite possibly (so Tolkien hints) Ungoliant herself. If Elves and Half-elves can unhouse Maiar and similar creatures, then I think Men can, too.
If you’re discussing the fan-fiction of Peter Jackson or the rest of the movie-makers, then I can add nothing.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Aug 16, 2020)

Alcuin said:


> If Elves and Half-elves can unhouse Maiar and similar creatures, then I think Men can, too.


Yes, men can, like Turin VS Glaurung, in addition, and so was Scatha.



Alcuin said:


> No other creature could defeat a Vala, not even a Maia. Both times Morgoth was captured, Tulkas defeated him, and Tulkas came last into Arda after all the other Valar failed to overcome Melkor Morgoth, apparently for that very purpose. Tulkas was the only Vala present in the War of Wrath at the end of the First Age other than Morgoth.


Turin could defeat a Valar(Morgoth) in Dagor Dagorath .



Aredheldaedraugh said:


> It was mere luck Isildur could cut off the ring and it was not clever of Sauron to try (what did he try?) to put his hand on Isildur. It was Isildur‘s chance and a very idiotic and human gesture from Sauron with his hand. But it was not that Isildur or the rest of the armies have been stronger than Sauron, they weren’t.


Even if that's so, it still can prove Isiuldur is agile enough, don't forget Fingofin also handicapped Morgoth by his agility. Most of all, even though there's no details mention how Isiuldur kill Sauron, yet we can make sure the table might not favors Isiuldur, otherwise he doesn't need to use the shards of Narsil instead of using his own weapon(It's another matter if he used both)


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## Olorgando (Aug 16, 2020)

Hisoka Morrow said:


> Turin could defeat a Valar(Morgoth) in Dagor Dagorath .


That would be the Second Prophecy of Mandos, to be found in the "Quenta Silmarillion" in volume 5 of the "History of Middle-earth", "The Lost Road". But at this point, Túrin is said to return from the Halls of Mandos to take part in the Last Battle on the fields of Valinor, while Men usually leave the "Circles of the World". This is basically JRRT's version of the Norse "Ragnarök", so still to be assumed in our future. And close to the end of this version of the "Quenta Silmarillion" is another statement about Túrin: "But of Men in that day the Prophecy of Mandos doth not speak, and no Man it names, save Túrin only, *and to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar*."
That casts some serious doubt of Túrin in this incarnation still being human, and his being allowed to return would have to be something of a special dispensation from Eru, as was allowing Beren to return from the dead after Lúthien had successfully intervened with Námo Mandos, who in turn, I must assume, had asked for and been granted special dispensation from Eru, too.
There is another even more remarkable statement about Túrin and his sister Níenori (so called here) in volume 12 of HoMe, "The Peoples of Middle-earth", in Note 14 to Chapter XII "The Problem of _Ros_": it refers back to volume 2 BoLT vol. 2, Chapter II "Turambar and the Foalókë", last paragraph:
"Yet now the prayers of Úrin and Mavwin came even to Manwë, and the Gods had mercy on their unhappy fate, so that those twain Túrin and Níenori entered into Fôs'Almir, the bath of flame, even as Urwendi and her maidens had done in ages past before the first rising of the Sun, and so were all their sorrows and stains washed away, *and they dwelt as shining Valar (!!!) among the blessed ones*, and now the love of that brother and sister is very fair; but Turambar indeed shall stand beside Fionwë in the Great Wrack, and Melko and his drakes shall curse the sword of Mormakil."
All of this, of course belong to earlier, in the case of BoLT earliest layers of writing. How much would have survived in updated writing by JRRT himself we can never know.


Hisoka Morrow said:


> ... even though there's no details mention how Isiuldur kill Sauron, ...


I must nag Alcuin (a rare occasion) a bit for putting unhouse in quotation marks instead of "kill". Though it *might* be an excusable mistake on Isildur's part to think he had "killed" Sauron, Elrond must have known better, as he urged Isildur strongly to destroy the One Ring in the Cracks of Doom. In fact, even after the One Ring finally was destroyed at near the end of LoTR, this did not "kill" Sauron. It reduced him so much that he was never able to take visible form again, but something of his spirit of malice remained (as that of Morgoth did), even though he was apparently also cast out into the void like his master.

_P.S. that Index volume to HoMe (the unofficial vol. 13) which I recently bought has already proven its worth!_ 😁


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## Elthir (Aug 16, 2020)

My favorite description of the slaying of Sauron hails from Tolkienian Letter 131, which blurts even better when bolded in blue:



> *"The Second Age ( . . . ) with one disastrous mistake. Gilgalad and Elendil are slain in the act of slaying Sauron. Isildur, Elendil's son, cuts the ring from Sauron's hand, and his power departs, and his spirit flees into the shadows."*




🐾


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## Elthir (Aug 16, 2020)

We can say this much about Turin with respect to the (ultimately abandoned) Second Prophecy: Tolkien eventually placed a large *X* against a reference to him as a *"son of the Valar"* . . .

. . . and in any case, in Christopher Tolkien's opinion (concerning which I agree), the Second Prophecy of Mandos was abandoned, to be replaced by a Numenorean myth, or possibly by an Andrethian prophecy in which Turin is said to *return from the dead before his final departure* -- appear at the *War of Wrath* rather -- where the noted dragon slayer slays Ancalagon the Black.

Distinction alert: I'm not saying Tolkien abandoned a Mannish "End Days" myth, but rather that the Second _Prophecy of Mandos_ was abandoned.


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## Olorgando (Aug 16, 2020)

Elthir said:


> ... prophecy in which Turin is said to *return from the dead before his final departure* -- appear at the *War of Wrath* rather -- where the noted dragon slayer slays Ancalagon the Black. ...


Eh? So an Edain zombie returns to slay a dragon zombie??
*Please* don't give PJ ideas!!!


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## Elthir (Aug 16, 2020)

But Ancalagon was alive for the WoW.

Anyway, it might have been interesting to make this [*my*] revision to the following Tolkienian-based sentence: *"And before the rising of the sun, Ancalagon the Black, the mightiest of the dragon-host, fell from the sky, and in his ruin broke the towers of Thangorodrim."*

Then "the Sun rose" . . . and _Quenta Silmarillion_ winds on to its end, never stating who slew Ancalagon. And soon the reader puts down a nearly finished cone of vanilla and chocolate soft serve ice cream, and says: "Hmm. Did I read something earlier somewhere . . . about a prophecy, given by . . . oh yes, Andreth!*" *And next, the reader asks that ice cream: "What was her prophecy again?" 

And suddenly remembering, shouts * "Drego morn! Drego morn! Túrin! Túrin!"*

🐾


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## Olorgando (Aug 16, 2020)

Elthir, Elthir ... tut, tut, tut, are you now falling into PJ's trap, thinking you can improve on JRRT's writing?
True, the original from the published-in-1977 "SiImarillion" might not be 100% JRRT.
But it leaves no doubts:
"Before the rising of the sun Eärendil slew Ancalagon the Back, the mightiest of the dragon-host, and cast him from the sky; and he fell upon the towers of Thangorodrim , and they were broken in ruin."
Exactly *how* Eärendil slew Ancalagon is not stated.
But I have a favorite hypothesis.
Having to do with the Phial of Galadriel (*this* should interest you, should it not? 😁 )
Frodo drove back Shelob *within her own lair* with the Phial's light; Sam then drove her back underground with it for keeps a bit later.
Now I would assume that we can agree that Eärendil is probably an opponent being, oh, say, about a dozen orders of magnitude more formidable than either Frodo and Sam.
And Eärendil had a friggin' *Silmaril*! Containing the light of both trees, additionally hallowed by the Valar.
So I picture the situation being a head-to-head confrontation between Ancalagon and Eärendil, with the latter letting the Silmaril emit an utterly blinding, focused flash, which at least reduced Ancalagon's eyes to ashes.
And as all creatures having eyes also have a fairly large opening in the equivalent of their skull to allow the optical nerve to reach the brain, this flash might even have turned Ancalagon's *brain* to ashes.

So now the dragon zombie may be at least blind, or even blind and without a brain ... OK, I'm no expert on the fine points (or even gross points) of zombie lore, so this may not be out of the ordinary ... 🤔


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## Miguel (Aug 16, 2020)

Elthir said:


> But Ancalagon was alive for the WoW.



I think he's referring to Andreth's Dagorath.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Aug 16, 2020)

Elthir said:


> Yep, Balrogs were Maiar by the time of this note, and according to the _Annals of Aman_ -- the abandoned typescript version AAm* section 30: *"*_*And in Utumno he multiplied the race of the evil spirits that followed him, the Umaiar, of whom the chief were those demons whom the Elves afterwards named the Balrogath." *_
> 
> CJRT writes that there seems no way to determine with certainty when AAm* was made, but he thinks or feels that it belongs to the early 1950s, and if so, I needn't look further to also say that the Balrogs were Maiar at an external time when they were conceived of as numerous.
> 
> ...


Hmm...it seems Balrogs were much like special forces instead of Dragons, playing much role as super mass destruction weapons🧐🧐🧐



Aldarion said:


> I believe dragons might actually be stronger. Remember, during War of the Wrath, balrogs were all destroyed along with rest of Morgoth's army, yet we never hear of them impeding Valar's progress. But when winged dragons attacked, Valar were actually pushed back.


I knew it!Thanks, and obviously those Balrogs didn't cause too many casualties among Valinor Expedition before the Dragons took their posts. So without doubt, the Dragons caused much more threat than the Balrogs to the Valinor Expedition 😁😁😁



Aldarion said:


> OTOH, metaphysical logic goes against this: balrogs were created earlier, before Morgoth's decline set in the earnest and were actually Maiar originally. Thus they should be stronger than dragons, both due to their inherent superior nature and due to their creator's superior state at the moment of their creation.


Hmm...well...the devastating casualties of Balrogs in Gondolin proved that Noldor elves might own them a little, and further, during Dagor Bragollach, none of the Balrogs dare stand in Fingolfin's way. So maybe metaphysical logic only set Balrogs were stronger on innate stuff?And the Noldor elves took on these created earlier armed forces by acquired stuff, like discipline, tactic, and so forth.


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## Elthir (Aug 16, 2020)

Miguel said:


> I think he's referring to Andreth's Dagorath.




But Andreth's prophecy refers to the Last Battle at the end of the Elder Days -- that is, the War of Wrath (as explained by Christopher Tolkien, which also explains why CJRT includes reference to the _earlier_ texts in which Earendil slays Ancalagon).




Olorgando said:


> Elthir, Elthir ... tut, tut, tut, are you now falling into PJ's trap, thinking you can improve on JRRT's writing?




Earlier in the thread I noted Christopher Tolkien's revisions regarding Balrog numbers, but I don't think CJRT thought of these edits as improving anything. In my opinion, he's rather choosing a solution which pays some heed to Tolkien's "three or at most seven" note (and revision to AAM).

My fun experiment above is not about improvement, but to try to incorporate Tolkien's "last known" version of Turin's return -- the slaying of Ancalagon in the War of Wrath -- into _The Silmarillion. _

My edit allows for the truth of Andreth's prophecy to be *possible* -- but not stated as a certainly known historical fact (outside the context of a recorded prophecy) -- in a legendarium that obviously goes beyond, chronologically, the War of Wrath.

Of course it's very possible that Tolkien meant to include Andreth's prophecy and describe its coming true, or to go back to Earendil here, or something else, but in any case, again, I was just playing with hooking up the later notion of Ancalagon's death with earlier, existing text.

🐾


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## Miguel (Aug 17, 2020)

Elthir said:


> But Andreth's prophecy refers to the Last Battle at the end of the Elder Days -- that is, the War of Wrath



Aaaaaaaa.


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## Olorgando (Aug 17, 2020)

Elthir said:


> But Andreth's prophecy refers to the Last Battle at the end of the Elder Days -- that is, the War of Wrath ...


My new HoMe Index was not as helpful as I'd hoped, so I had do do quite a bit of reading concerning Andreth mostly in vol. 10 MR, which contains the long "Arthrabeth Finrod A Andreth" - but in which I found nothing about a prophecy about Túrin. Vol. 11 WoTJ had very little, but I may have "struck gold" at last in vol 12 PoMe. Sort of. In the very long note 17 to chapter 12 "The Problem of Ros":
"... Andreth prophesies of the Last Battle at the end of the Elder Days (the sense in which the term 'Last Battle' is used shortly afterwards in this text. p. 371) ...".
In the first two-and-a-half of the last five lines of this note. Flying in the teeth of the use of the term 'Last Battle' as used in the previous page-and-a-half of this note. And in the teeth of the last two-and-a-half lines pointing out that over masses of earlier writing, it was Eärendil who destroys Ancalagon in the War of Wrath at the end of the Elder Days.
This is in Part Two "Late Writings", all from 1967 at the earliest. It and writings like it to be found in the last three volumes of HoMe may be a major reason that I remember so little about these late volumes. As I've mentioned elsewhere, re-reading these things for comments on various threads here (pointed to such quotes by Elthir, Alcuin and others) has led me to the conviction "good thing JRRT never got around to these revisions!"

OK, so Túrin is a proven dragon-slayer. By that ol' gimmick that Sigurd / Siegfried / whoever had already used on Fafnir in the Norse Sagas. Point is, a crawling dragon. Now Túrin returning from wherever would definitely need some special dispensation from Eru like for Beren, and as one would say nowadays an "upgrade". But to tackle the greatest dragon of all time, a flying one? Gets too far into conventional Marvel / DC superhero territory *in the context of Middle-earth* for my taste. No, Eärendil wearing a Silmaril and flying in in his hallowed ship Vingilot fits that much better.

And then for "poetic justice": first, the Dagor Dagorath will almost certainly put the War of Wrath to shame in its scope. This is Ragnarök or Armageddon territory. And Túrin getting his ultimate revenge on the ultimate baddie of Middle-earth, who was the spiteful cause of his and his family's suffering, is in the Middle-earth context the most fitting. Chopping up an oversized salamander as _ersatz_ heroics in some secondary skirmish just looks totally wimpy.


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## Elthir (Aug 17, 2020)

I think the Prophecy of Andreth, and a later, Númenorean Myth that includes Túrin and Morgoth, could both exist in the larger legendarium. I like the constellation Menelmakar (Orion) being a sign of Túrin, as noted in _The Annals of Aman_:* 

" . . . The Swordsman of the Sky. This,** it is said,** was a sign of Túrin Turambar, who should come into the world, and a foreshadowing of the Last Battle at the end of Days."*

*It is said.* By whom? I note the preamble to a different Annals of Aman (AAm*), which arguably reflects the later Númenorean/Bilbo transmission, and in this scenario, Rúmil made the Annals in the Elder Days, which were held in memory by the Exiles, and: *"Those parts which we learned and remembered were thus set down in Númenor before the Shadow fell on it."*

Also, the last time I spoke with* Alcuin *about the matter of Andreth's prophecy, he gave me something further to think about here . . . but of course, right now I can't recall what it was and I can't find the post.

Drat!

In any case, as I noted above, if nothing is said about who killed Ancalagon in QS, this at least keeps both Andreth's prophecy and the Númenorean Myth in the same "boat", if that boat is: neither event is "recorded history" in the same sense as other recorded history: one is a mannish prophecy_ possibly_ fulfilled, the other a mannish myth concerning the End Days . . .

. . . in which readers would still get (in the myth version), or might still get, the poetic justice *Gando* refers to.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Aug 18, 2020)

Elthir said:


> In any case, as I noted above, if nothing is said about who killed Ancalagon in QS, this at least keeps both Andreth's prophecy and the Númenorean Myth in the same "boat", if that boat is: neither event is "recorded history" in the same sense as other recorded history: one is a mannish prophecy_ possibly_ fulfilled, the other a mannish myth concerning the End Days . . .


...so even who killed Ancalagon is uncertain as well...but if it's not Earendil, then who can be such relentless ape?
If it's Valars, then they might need nothing Super Weapon Bonus, after all, their own selves are the biggest "Cheater", for instance, Mandos is enough to overwhelm the strongest Dragon by to keep resurrecting those dead and use them as endless combat personnel. Or maybe Manwe can blow up Ancalagon like a toy ball.
And the other combat unit of Valinor mostly have no such competence, apart from Majars.


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## Elthir (Aug 18, 2020)

Hisoka Morrow said:


> so even who killed Ancalagon is uncertain as well...




Well, not that you aren't drawing this distinction, but I'll draw it anyway: it would be "uncertain" according to my little experiment above -- despite that the prophecy would point to Turin -- which experiment I reserve the right to revise at any moment.

💫

But whether it's "uncertain" according to a given person's definition of canon, or point of view, is another matter.


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## Alcuin (Aug 19, 2020)

For what it’s worth, _Silmarillion_ in “The Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath” says Eärendil killed Ancalagon. Any uncertainty would arise from questions of the “canonicity” of _Silmarillion_.


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## Elthir (Aug 19, 2020)

Yep, I revised *Earendil's* slaying of the dragon out of the sentence in the constructed Silmarillion.



Silmarillion canon aside, my experiment above is based on the chronology of Tolkien-written texts. That said, I was hoping you, *Alcuin, *could refresh my memory on your interpretation of Andreth's prophecy, *if* taken as internal, or canon, if you like.

I seem to recall you saying something about it not too long ago, but I couldn't find the post!


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## Alcuin (Aug 19, 2020)

Urk! 😖 🤔 To be honest, I had forgotten the reference to Andreth in “The Problem of _Ros_”. The Second Prophecy of Mandos is a separate matter: I doubt Andreth had independent means of learning of the Dooms of Mandos. Túrin’s fate isn’t mentioned in her debate with Finrod.


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## Olorgando (Aug 19, 2020)

Alcuin said:


> Urk! 😖 🤔 To be honest, I had forgotten the reference to Andreth in “The Problem of _Ros_”. The Second Prophecy of Mandos is a separate matter: I doubt Andreth had independent means of learning of the Dooms of Mandos. Túrin’s fate isn’t mentioned in her debate with Finrod.


Actually, Andreth is not even mentioned in “The Problem of _Ros_” text proper, but in that long note 17 to it.
What makes me wonder about Andreth prophesizing anything about Túrin is the fact that this debate with Finrod is supposed to take place about 409 First Age, while Túrin is not even born until 55 years later, in 465 FA - or for that matter even Túrin's father Húrin is not born until 441 FA!
But at least I did not miss anything about that prophecy in the "Arthrabeth", apparently.
But does that actually mean that this ominous prophecy by Andreth about Túrin is really restricted to a footnote to a very late and rather short minor philological article?


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