# Why are beings in the first age stronger than the second-third age



## Might_of_arnor (Sep 17, 2017)

Alright so this more along the lines of two questions: 

Question 1 

i don't understand why structures and objects and even beings were stronger in the first and second age compared to the second age. 

Example - helms deep wall (I'm not up to date with middle earth history but keep up with me) is somehow stronger than a wall built in the third age with the best equipment and resources available (presumably helms deep is at least a thousand years old) 

Example 2 - orcs in the third age somehow being weaker than those in the first and second age (despite being freshly bred) correct me if I'm wrong but I'm going along the concept of power is stronger in ancient times/ than it is in current times. 

Is this just a perception of Tolkien or just the fact everyone and everything is becoming/became Weaker as the ages went on.

Question 2 

What if gothmog (lord of balrogs) replaced sauron. Say every happens as it did, sauron makes the one ring and becomes the most powerful being in middle earth, just underneath all of the Valor and his master morgoth at his peak. Now replace sauron with gothmog. What motives or ambitions would gothmog undertake (I don't know a lot about gothmog apart from the fact he is/contested with sauron the right hand of morgoth. 

It's just a scenario of what if or what would happen, would middle earth be in greater danger, would gothmog get as far as sauron did (this is all without gothmog having any injuries sustained to him) 

From what I've heard gothmog was felled by a great elven lord/King who was also felled by gothmog, yet sauron was defeated physically by a man, albeit the King of numernorians who was 7'11 and wielded great power within his bloodline.


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## Ingolmin (Sep 20, 2017)

Power was stronger in the ancient times!
According to me, it's true, as during the ancient times all the beauty was spread by the Valar, the beauty of middle earth and its strength was at its peak. When the elves returned to middle earth, those ones who had seen the Light of Valinor were wiser and stronger in spirit than others, they spread their power and knowledge everywhere. The men who came in contact with the elves also called the Edain received some part of the light of the Eldar and gained strength and wisdom that they had lost after being doomed. The Numenoreans having elvish blood, wisdom and strength became great lords, all those who came in contact with them, themselves became great.
Similarly, many dark things in Middle Earth were ruled Melkor, who was the most powerful of all the Valar, the most evil. And, so the beings who were created in the time of Melkor were at their peak.
The people of Rohan were descended through Vidugavia, king of Rhovanion whose daughter Vidumavi married King Valacar of Gondor, whose son Eldacar became king.
So the people of Rohan were great and they shared distant kinship with Gondorians, also they had great dealings with them. So, in the beginning they were really strong.
But later as the blood of pure men mingled with lesser men, greatness started diminishing unless it was found in very few. Also the elves were sailing off the shores of middle earth.
Sauron being lesser powerful than Melkor couldn't create evil the size of Melkor, who was himself an evil.
Gothmog died fighting with Ecthelion of Gondolin.
Gothmog was the Balrog and was really one of the most evilly powerful Maiar.
Sauron was also a powerful Maiar, also he did not die when Isildur cut the ring. His malice and power he had put in the ring was taken from him, that's why he disappeared for some time. Sauron was not less powerful than Gothmog, as you think, dear friend !! But also do not doubt the power of Isildur!


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## Azrubêl (Sep 20, 2017)

The short answer is that the events of the LOTR, for example, were further away in space and time from the Light of Valinor, compared to the First Age. 

This isn't arbitrary, however, as it is ultimately rooted in the fact that Ilúvatar's will for creation was perfect, but then Discord came, first Melkor, then the Oath of Fëanor and the Kin-Slaying, then the Fall of Númenor, etc, all the way to the Third Age where the Valar are unknown by men and distant to elves. 

You can view Ëa according to what I believe is mirrored in the Hindu perspective, that the Universe emanates from a single point, the Source of all things (in Tolkien, this would be the Secret Fire, which is held by Ilúvatar), and that the development of history is like an exhale of breath from this source, which will ultimately be drawn back into the Source from which it came.

Nice post!


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## Starbrow (Sep 20, 2017)

Inglomin, I enjoyed your response. I want to argue one detail with you, though. The Numenorians were descendants of one of the 3 houses of men that first encountered the high elves of Beleriand, from which their greatness derived. They were called the Edain. However, only the descendants of Elros had elvish blood.


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## Ingolmin (Sep 21, 2017)

Yes, I truly agree with.you Starbrow that though Elros was descended from the three houses of edain still he and his descendants alone had elvish blood.
But know that the edain who weren't directly descendants of Elros still had acquired some of the power and light from these Numenoreans.
Remember Erendis, wife of Aldarion, she had short life since she was not of the House of Elros but still her fathers had lived for a long time in Numenor, their life span wasn't increased but their knowledge and might developed and they became great since the edain in Numenor freely had intermarriages with the Dunedain. 
Is it not in real life as well, if for instance you get the opportunity of meeting Tolkien you would see the world around from a perspective, your thinking would be uplifted, if you live with some sort of people and unite with them your children may acquire the qualities of both.


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## Might_of_arnor (Sep 21, 2017)

I'm very happy you guys responded. So while I thank you guys for giving a better understanding and insight for my questions, you haven't answered question 2 directly (which is entirely my fault, but no biggie) .

What I meant to ask was "how would Gothmog rule as the lord of the ring/s. Sauron from what I know was a master of deception and perhaps held these traits better than morgoth did. I'm wondering how gothmog would lead his forces, would he have fared better than sauron (who came extremely close and actually had everything done correctly but coincidences got in the way). 

I haven't quite read the similarion (read 5-10 pages worth at the library, which explained Eru and the Ainur). 

Also another question (I'm dragging this thread on but I'm so curious) what do you mean by marrying into lesser people? How would that reduce power within a person from say 500 years ago in middle earth time to now? And one final question, what happened to all the orcs and uruks when sauron passed? Did they dissolve or hunted during the fourth age or just simply disappear as time went on? 

I very much appreciate everyone who answered in this thread. Thank you all


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## Ingolmin (Sep 21, 2017)

Well, nobody knows what would have happened (this is what Aslan says in Narnia). Maybe, I do not know about how Gothmog would have ruled if he hadn't died!!
Most of the orcs and uruks had become leaderless and many hordes had been wiped out during the Battle of Pelennor Fields, during the destruction of the Dark Tower and in the north many were killed by the Nine Walkers and their allies. Orcs had become lesser but still they did not pass away, remember orcs also lived in Moria. According to me they would have disappeared(not on their own) as time passed.
Lesser men or rather middle men were those men which were in kinship with Edain, but those who had not crossed Ered Luin and entered Beleriand in the First age. The Numenoreans who can said as High men possessed elvish blood, this was the source of their long life and great strength of mind and body and they were really far superior than the Middle men if you see their powers during the Second Age. Many of these Men of Twilight entered the service of Sauron (Easterlings, Haradrim).
The men of Dale, of Bree, of Dunland and of Rohan can be said as middle men during the Third age. Well, since the Numenorean blood contained elvish and the pure Numenoreans were given a long life but upon intermarrying with the middle men, their blood mingled and the percentage of pure Numenorean blood obviously became less. Due to which the Kings of Gondor and Arnor although were the descendants of Tar Elendil still they were not so great in power and had shorter span of life than of their forefathers in Numenor .
If blood mingling takes place with lesser men for only two generations, it can make a huge difference between a grandfather and his grandson, provided grandfather is a Numenorean(in Tolkien's world). So 500 years down the line, the people would change and greatness would diminish.
Elendil was around seven feet tall, were there any tall fellows left in Arnor and Gondor during the end of the Third Age? So blood mingling does make a difference, at first it cannot be seen easily, later it become evident.

Thank You!!


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