# What happened to those unfortunate elves ?



## Elfhelm25 (Feb 24, 2004)

As stated in the Silmarillion, many "unfortunate " elves were taken by Melkor and corrupted into orcs. I am just curious as to what happened to their souls ? Surely they would not live forever under the living conditions of orc life ? Would their non- currupted souls still exist somewhere in Mandos perhaps , or were their souls forever corrupted and never granted release ? This does not seem , to me, to fit with the fate of elves. Would they perhaps be granted freedom from those tortuous times and memories, or find their way to Mandos, or be doomed forever > What do you think ?


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## Grond (Feb 25, 2004)

Elfhelm25 said:


> As stated in the Silmarillion, many "unfortunate " elves were taken by Melkor and corrupted into orcs. I am just curious as to what happened to their souls ? Surely they would not live forever under the living conditions of orc life ? Would their non- currupted souls still exist somewhere in Mandos perhaps , or were their souls forever corrupted and never granted release ? This does not seem , to me, to fit with the fate of elves. Would they perhaps be granted freedom from those tortuous times and memories, or find their way to Mandos, or be doomed forever > What do you think ?


This brings us back to an age old debate on this forum. Do some searches on Elves and souls and orcs and corruption and you'll find a number of threads where this has already been discussed. But... here is the quote of which you speak.


> _from The Silmarillion, Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor,_
> ...Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes....


This is not a definitive statement by the author. It is an assertion that may or may not be factual. Note the premise "Yet this is held to be true...". 
The author was constantly "revising" his views on the nature of Orcs.


> _from HoME X, Morgoth's Ring,_
> In a letter of my father's written on 25 April 1954 (Letters no.144) he said that the word Orc 'is as far as I am concerned actually derived from Old English orc "demon", but only because of its phonetic suitability' (and also: 'Orcs... are nowhere clearly stated to be of any particular origin. But since they are servants of the Dark Power, and later of Sauron, neither of whom could, or would, produce living things, they must be "corruptions"').


Nothing certain here. Only proof that they were not made by Melkor or Sauron.


> _also from HoME X, Morgoth's Ring,_
> Hence Orcs? Part of the Elf-Man idea gone wrong. Though as for Orcs, the Eldar believed Morgoth had actually 'bred' them by capturing Men (and Elves) early and increasing to the utmost any corrupt tendencies they possessed.


Again, nothing definitive... just another Elvish interpretation. 

Wait a minute... Ahhhh!! here it is... a long read but worth the effort.


> _from HoME X, Morgoth's Ring,_
> Orcs.
> Their nature and origin require more thought. They are not easy to work into the theory and system.
> (1). As the case of Aule and the Dwarves shows, only Eru could make creatures with independent wills, and with reasoning powers. But Orcs seem to have both: they can try to cheat Morgoth / Sauron, rebel against him, or criticize him.
> ...


The answer to your question is somewhere in there.


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