# ELENDIL! I am Aragorn son of Arathorn!



## HLGStrider (Aug 18, 2005)

> "Elendil!" he cried. "I am Aragorn, son of Arathorn, and am called Elessar, the Elfstone, Dunadan, the heir of Isuldur Elendil's son of Gondor. Here is the Sword that was Broken and is forged again! Will you aid me or thwart me? Choose swiftly!"


 
This is one of my favorite moments in the entire series, Aragorn, eyes flashing in the sun, stirred by his inner strength, proclaims his heritage to the Riders of Rohan.

Now, basically he is giving his credentials, but looking at it from a logical rather than a star struck, I am going to faint because Aragorn is so noble and manly point of view, does this really make sense? You are outnumbered. You don't plan to be killing these people even if you had to. Why draw on them and threaten them?

He basically gave Eomer an ultimatum, and Eomer found Aragorn's credentials impressive enough that he bent to them. . .
However, if he hadn't had, Aragorn has just made himself a really tempting target. 
Sure, Aragorn was a match for twenty Orcs, but what about twenty Riders lead by Eomer who is an impressive warrior in his own right? Could he have taken them on?
Would Aragorn have even wanted to take them on? Would have have risked killing the heir of his nation's ally? Even for his quest.
Was Aragorn simply confident enough that Eomer would yield to the heir of Elendil that he bluffed?
Doesn't Aragorn look smashing with his eyes glinting like cold steel?
So many questions. . .so many questions. . .


----------



## Hammersmith (Aug 18, 2005)

Sounds to me that the unspoken question is "Who are you?" It's a bluff, he's introducing himself pridefully, and he looks damn good in doing it, too.


----------



## Valandil (Aug 18, 2005)

I went along with what I perceive to be the point of the whole conversation between Aragorn and Eomer: the time for wavering is over - it is time to choose - now what will it be?

The 'threat' was real - but the situation of Aragorn, Legolas & Gimli was perilous. They would all have been killed.

Now out of Lorien and in the world of Men - in the 'theater' where things were now coming to a head, it was time for Aragorn to reveal himself and test whether what he was still had meaning to them... his prospects of success depended on that very thing.

Time for Aragorn... to declare himself. Time for Eomer, and all the other Men of Rohan and of Gondor... to choose!


----------



## Greenwood (Aug 18, 2005)

Aragorn was declaring his credentials. Two things should be remembered: 1) At the time Aragorn makes his declaration there has already been some exchange between Aragorn, Gimli, Legolas and Eomer so Aragorn knows who Eomer is and that he is true to his king, Theoden, and does not favor Sauron; 2) Aragorn once lived in Rohan and fought with the Rohirrim -- he knew Eomer's father and Theoden. Aragorn pushed Eomer into making a decision, but Aragorn had enough knowledge of the kind of men the Rohirrim were and the kind of man Eomer was likely to be, to be pretty sure as to how Eomer would decide. Aragorn was in haste to get on with the pursuit and he correctly judged that giving his credentials, Eomer would be somewhat in awe of him and it would speed things up.


----------



## baragund (Aug 18, 2005)

Aragorn was giving his credentials, declaring himself to the Rohirrim. Rather than a challenge or an ultimatum, I always considered it to be an appeal for aid and support. The "Will you aid me or thwart me?" part was a bit theatrical, and it was really a rhetorical question. I never considered the statement to be any kind of threat. Baring his sword was OK because he had to prove his credentials by showing them Narsil. By declaring himself, Aragorn was stating that he and Eomer were on the same side and that they should be working together.


----------



## Starbrow (Aug 18, 2005)

It's a good thing I wasn't a Rider because I would be throwing myself in Aragorn's arms. 
Anyway, I don't think he was making a threat; it was more like he was showing off. He was presenting his credentials in a most impressive manner.
(He left his resume in his other suit of armor.  )


----------



## Aglarband (Aug 21, 2005)

He was giving his credentials and he was, as u say "making a threat". Although there was no threat, he said aid or thwart me. Of course Aragorn isn't going to go without a fight, but he wanted answers fast, Merry and Pippin were in trouble and he hadn't walked all that way to be stopped by brothers in arms!


----------



## HLGStrider (Aug 21, 2005)

But if they were, as you say, brother's in arms, would he be justified in killing them?
After all, even you seem to think he couldn't win and would just be "going down with a fight." Therefore killing Eomer wouldn't do any good and it would aid the enemy by depriving Rohan of one of its most valient warriors. I don't see Aragorn as that blinded by the needs of now.


----------



## Valdarmyr (Aug 21, 2005)

I like what Valandil and baragund said, in particular. It was a symbolic action, but perhaps also a show of force on deeper levels. I don't think Aragorn even considered killing them, and I don't thing the Rohirim would've attacked. Aragorn had just told Eomer, "We intend no evil to Rohan, nor to any of its folk, neither to man nor to horse." Then Eomer told them they were not yet at open war with the Power of the Black Land; "we desire only to be free, and to live as we have lived." But as you've said, Aragorn then told them of his high lineage and said, "Choose swiftly!" In effect, open war is upon you, whether you would wish it or not, as I think he told Theoden in the film. Time to act, now! And so Aragorn swept out Anduril--I picture him pointing it up and outward--and I believe he told them, in effect, if you truly want to keep living life as you have lived it, you must aid me, and the power and history of Anduril will be on your side; it's time to settle the score. It was a galvanizing action. And an excellent part of the book, and fun to consider!


----------



## HLGStrider (Aug 21, 2005)

I guess it does make a difference how you imagine he was holding the sword. I always saw it being pointed basically at Eomer. . .But if he just pulled it out for showing, I suppose there are any number of inert ways to hold a sword.


----------



## Hobbit-GalRosie (Aug 21, 2005)

Wow, this is a fascinating subject. I voted (a while ago) that he was giving his credentials, and that it was a real threat but he couldn't have taken them. Before I really got the point, but I guess that's still more or less how I feel about it. I mean, if the Rohirrim had dragged the remains of the Fellowship off to prison or something like that it would probably have been (by somewhat circuitous routes) a deciding factor in the War of the Ring, inasfar as Rohan almost undoubtedly wouldn't have gone into action until much later, possibly even never, so I think there was a good deal of "ultimatum" in Aragorn's words as a few others have said. Does Eomer deny the accusations about tribute to Mordor before this point? Because if Aragorn still thinks there some possibility of that he's much more likely to think that extraordinary means are necessary to pull Rohan back from the brink of darkness.

But anyway, I don't know if he would have resorted to violence in the end...anything like that always depends so much on circumstances that it just gets murky trying to look so far into the future of a tale that just didn't happen that way, but it's still fun to try (up to a point).


----------



## Greenwood (Aug 21, 2005)

HLGStrider said:


> I guess it does make a difference how you imagine he was holding the sword. I always saw it being pointed basically at Eomer. . .But if he just pulled it out for showing, I suppose there are any number of inert ways to hold a sword.


I never pictured Anduril as being held in a threatening manner toward Eomer, but rather in a "display" manner, perhaps straight up, sort of like "present arms" with a rifle. Surrounded by a hundred or so riders, some undoubtedly with bows out and arrows set, it would be stupid to aim a weapon at their leader when one of them might attack before Eomer could respond. I pointed out earlier that Aragorn had considerable knowledge of the Rohirrim, having served with them in the past. Aragorn's "read" of Eomer was clearly accurate since Eomer's response to Aragorn's declaration is not one of doubt. Rather Eomer responds: "Tell me lord, what brings you here?" Clearly, Eomer has immediately accepted Aragorn's "credentials".


----------



## HLGStrider (Aug 21, 2005)

Yeah, I guess the way I imagined it needs to be adjusted. However, drawing any weapon suddenly has got to be a red flag to a rider.


----------



## Inderjit S (Aug 25, 2005)

It always sounded rather corny to me, I mean shouting out the name of your ancestor for no apparent reason to a bunch of phillistine horsemen...

In all seriousness, it was a case of Aragorn listing (or shouting) his credentials to Eomer-perhaps he was feeling a bit piqued, or perhaps he was just in a hurry and didn't desire unwanted delays, and was slightly annoyed that the enemies of Sauron were constantly bickering-first with the Elves of Lothlorien and then with the Men of Rohan.


----------



## Kirinki54 (Aug 28, 2005)

Hi fellas!

This is an interesting issue. While I voted for "presenting credentials", I think Aragorn´s exclamation falls into parts of different nature. His first word 'Elendil!' is not per se related to giving his ancestry which follows en suite. 

'Elendil!' is a call that - according to the narrative - Aragorn uses four times in LotR, and the other three being Khazad-dum, Perth Galen and Helm´s Deep we can assume that meeting with Rohirrim and winning them over was of extreme importance to Aragorn´s plans.

The function of this evocation of Elendil is linked to a number of historical threads relating both to himself, Anduril and Elendil. But more than anything, I think to Aragorn it meant a symbol of _estel_.


----------



## Valandil (Aug 28, 2005)

Actually - calling out "Elendil!" to the Rohirrim DOES have some interesting signficance, though I didn't think of it until now.

In the UT story "Cirion and Eorl" - the Steward of Gondor and the first King of Rohan make their pledges to one another... at the very tomb of Elendil!

In a way - is Aragorn starting to recall to them the very oaths on which their land was founded?


----------



## HLGStrider (Aug 28, 2005)

So, you think starting with Elendil! was a way to gather mental strength. Like starting with "God help me?"


----------



## Valandil (Aug 29, 2005)

No - but that Aragorn was declaring himself - and in a way that created a tie with the Rohirrim. He might well have known already that Eorl and Cirion had sworn oaths together at Elendil's burial site (I think you don't have UT elgee, right? - that's where this account is). It might serve as a reminder that the very founding of Rohan was 'witnessed' - so to speak, by the remains of Elendil.

And... the one who granted them the land of Rohan was a Steward, who only acted on behalf of an heir of Elendil (thought no longer to exist) - but Aragorn went on to claim the title of heir himself.

As impressive as his lineage would have been to any Men in Middle Earth, that - and the mention of Elendil - might have been intended to get these men of Rohan to acknowledge his lordship over them - claiming he deserved it every bit as much as over those of Gondor - for their kingdom was on the land once ruled by his great ancestor.

Does that make sense?


----------



## HLGStrider (Aug 29, 2005)

Sorry, Van. . .I meant to be responding to Kirinki's post, not yours. . .But I didn't turn the page to see that there was another post after Kirinki's when I posted mine. . .


----------



## Narsil (Aug 29, 2005)

Valandil said:


> No - but that Aragorn was declaring himself - and in a way that created a tie with the Rohirrim. He might well have known already that Eorl and Cirion had sworn oaths together at Elendil's burial site (I think you don't have UT elgee, right? - that's where this account is). It might serve as a reminder that the very founding of Rohan was 'witnessed' - so to speak, by the remains of Elendil.
> 
> And... the one who granted them the land of Rohan was a Steward, who only acted on behalf of an heir of Elendil (thought no longer to exist) - but Aragorn went on to claim the title of heir himself.
> 
> ...



Actually it makes a lot of sense, especially when you consider the special relationship between Gondor and Rohan. 

I believe that Aragorn was actually proclaiming himself in this manner as well as establish the fact that there was a need for haste and action. Given the circumstances he found himself in his proclamation was appropriate and had the desired effect. 

I never thought of what he said as being an implied threat but rather a statement of who he is....as well as asking "Are you with me or not?" The fact that it's a strong, eloquent statement is icing on the cake.


----------



## Grond (Sep 14, 2005)

One must remember a number of things. I agree that Aragorn announcing his heritage immediately brings the Oath of Eorl into play. Aragorn being the heir demands that the Rohirrim aid him. 

Also, Aragorn knows the Rohirrim well. He has dwelt among them for a number of years in his youth in different guise (Thorongil). He even may have recognised Eomer since Thorongil had served with Eomer's father, Eomund. 

I think it was a simple request for aid and one that Aragorn was sure would be regarded with reverence and ultimately honored.

Cheers,

grond


----------



## HLGStrider (Sep 14, 2005)

Would Eomer have been alive when Aragorn was Thoronguil? Math is not my strong point, but if my guestimates are right Eomer would have been born about ten years after Aragorn served under Denethor, which was after he served under Thengel.


Or did you mean he would recognize him because he looked like his father?


----------



## Grond (Sep 14, 2005)

HLGStrider said:


> Would Eomer have been alive when Aragorn was Thoronguil? Math is not my strong point, but if my guestimates are right Eomer would have been born about ten years after Aragorn served under Denethor, which was after he served under Thengel.
> 
> 
> Or did you mean he would recognize him because he looked like his father?


Elgee,

I meant that Aragorn (being as keen-eyed as he was) might have noticed the family resemblance.  Of course Eomer wasn't yet born when Thorongil departed.

Cheers,

grond


----------



## Alcuin (Sep 15, 2005)

Ugh! Too long! Part 1 of 2 posts.

The éored of Éomer were the first people the Aragorn encountered in the old boundaries of the Kingdom of Gondor. I think Aragorn was doing several things:
He was asserting his rule as sovereign over the old territory of Calenardhon and by extension over the entire Kingdom of Gondor;
He was invoking the Oath of Eorl and Cirion at the tomb of Elendil;
He was proclaiming himself, his titles, and his inherited authority before Éomer and the éored, who had challenged his right to be there in the first place and threatened to arrest him, Legolas, and Gimli according to Théoden’s edict under the influence of Wormtongue;
He was challenging Éomer in a way that the Rohirrim would both admire and respect so that they would not interfere but might offer assistance.
Consider this, as well. The wife of Thengel King, mother of Théoden and Théodwyn, was Morwen of Lossarnach, a woman of the Dúnedain of Gondor. Théodwyn was in turn the wife of Éomund and the mother of Éomer and Éowyn. Éomer would have learned of Elendil not only as a son of the House of Eorl, but as the grandson of one of the Dúnedain. (It also implies that old Forlong the Fat of Lossarnach might well have been Théoden King’s first cousin.) 

No one has cited the pertinent passage in its entirety. Here it is:


> Aragorn threw back his cloak. The elven-sheath glittered as he grasped it, and the bright blade of Andúril shone like a sudden flame as he swept it out. ‘Elendil!’ he cried. ‘I am Aragorn son of Arathorn and am called Elessar, the Elfstone, Dúnadan, the heir of Isildur Elendil’s son of Gondor. Here is the Sword that was Broken and is forged again! Will you aid me or thwart me? Choose swiftly!’
> 
> Gimli and Legolas looked at their companion in amazement, for they had not seen him in this mood before. He seemed to have grown in stature while Éomer had shrunk; and in his living face they caught a brief vision of the power and majesty of the kings of stone. For a moment it seemed to the eyes of Legolas that a white flame flickered on the brows of Aragorn like a shining crown.
> 
> ...



This is not a threatening gesture, but a display of the Sword that was Broken, recalling to Éomer the dream-visions of Faramir and Boromir, of which Éomer had already heard and for whose meaning he inquires. No doubt a great deal of discussion had taken place among the nephews of Théoden (there is no reason to believe that Éomer was the only one, but Théoden’s favorite, who had grown up in his household as his own son when he and Éowyn were orphaned); and Théodred, who died defending the Fords of Isen, probably made inquiries and investigation into the history of Gondor to refresh his memory as well, and there is evidence that Théodred and Éomer were close.

Remember, too, what has just transpired. The Rohirrim have responded to Aragorn’s greeting by pointing weapons at him and his companions, which we modern folk would call an “assault”. Éomer and Gimli and Legolas have threatened one another with weapons in hand over whether Galadriel and her folk are “net-weavers and sorcerers.” And near to his heart, for he had lived among the Rohirrim – and no doubt the deep concern of Aragorn, despite his prior protestations to the contrary – Aragorn is trying to determine the truth of the rumors he has heard that Rohan is supplying horses to Mordor, and is thus in some way allied with Sauron.

When asked by what authority he entered Rohan without permission, Aragorn gave a common-sense answer: “The Orcs whom we pursued took captive two of my friends. In such need a man that has no horse will go on foot, and he will not ask for leave to follow the trail.” There is nothing in that declaration with which any man in the éored would have disagreed. Then Aragorn says that he is not weaponless – note that at this point in the conversation, he is ONLY person among the 108 people present (105 Rohirrim and the three Hunters) that has not seized a weapon and threatened someone else with it.


----------



## Alcuin (Sep 15, 2005)

Part 2 of 2 posts.

Even when he took up his weapon, Aragorn actually threatened no one. He said, make choice, Éomer: help me or leave me or thwart me; but if you thwart me, this is who I am: the rightful king by the lineage of Elendil, in whose name you and your people hold this land, over which I still exercise authority. And moreover, this is the (to the Rohirrim) “magic” sword of which you have heard and of which Faramir and Boromir dreamed, I have passed through the magic land of Dwimordene, the Lady whom you fear is my ally, and I am on a mission you have no desire or policy to deter or delay, and – by the way – you don’t want to mess with me, because I can kill you where you stand. But this last thought is never spoken by Aragorn, though Éomer, Gimli, and Legolas have just openly threatened to kill one another.

The key phrase though, in my opinion, is this one:


> Gimli and Legolas looked at their companion in amazement, for they had not seen him in this mood before. He seemed to have grown in stature while Éomer had shrunk; and in his living face they caught a brief vision of the power and majesty of the kings of stone. For a moment it seemed to the eyes of Legolas that a white flame flickered on the brows of Aragorn like a shining crown.


Legolas sees “with other vision” the symbol of royal authority on Aragorn: remember that the Kings of Arnor wore the Elendilmir bound about their heads with a silver fillet, while the Kings of Gondor wore a crown; Legolas sees that symbol “like a shining crown” “on the brows of Aragorn”. No doubt Éomer felt it, though his mortal eyes could not see it.

This is a claim on the throne of Gondor, a claim of overlordship in Rohan, recalling the ancient title taken by Númenórean kings: “High King”, implying an imperial structure in which lesser or local kings were permitted as long as they recognized the suzerainty of the High King. All the kings of Númenor were “High King”, as were Elendil and Isildur. Elendil was High King in Annúminas while Isildur and Anárion were co-rulers in Gondor; and Isildur was High King when he committed the rule of Gondor to Meneldil, who was less than disappointed to see his uncle leave the southern realm of the Dúnedain.

Aragorn is a king returned home, to his kingdom in peril and grievous distress. Compare what he has said when he first crossed the old border of Gondor along the Anduin at the Argonath. “Even Boromir bowed his head as the boats whirled by, frail and fleeting as little leaves, under the enduring shadow of the sentinels of Númenor. So they passed into the dark chasm of the Gates.” The Argonath was, as Sam bewailed it, “‘What a place! What a horrible place!’” But Aragorn’s reaction was completely different:


> Frodo turned and saw Strider, and yet not Strider; for the weatherworn Ranger was no longer there. In the stern sat Aragorn son of Arathorn, proud and erect, guiding the boat with skilful strokes; his hood was cast back, and his dark hair was blowing in the wind, a light was in his eyes: a king returning from exile to his own land.
> 
> ‘Fear not!’ he said. ‘Long have I desired to look upon the likenesses of Isildur and Anárion, my sires of old. Under their shadow Elessar, the Elfstone son of Arathorn of the House of Valandil Isildur’s son heir of Elendil, has nought to dread!’


This is essentially the same declarative assertion he made to Éomer: he has stated his authority by lineage over the land of Gondor.

It isn’t a threat that Aragorn is making. It is a declaration of who he is and an assertion of his royal authority, even over the Rohirrim and their land, and such a declaration and assertion brooks no opposition. Éomer might refuse to help Aragorn, but he cannot impede him without breaking the Oath of Eorl. And of course, when faced with this decision, Éomer does exactly what he should do: he explains to Aragon the entire situation, even the politically delicate and desperate state of the kingdom of Rohan and the physical and mental decrepitude of Théoden, a discussion that would normally have been considered treasonous, although he sent Éothain and the rest of his éored away before he divulged this information. Then he gave Aragorn and Legolas two horses, a decision which astounded the rest of the éored. Finally, he let them go about their business, which cost him his position as Third Marshal of the Mark and saw him imprisoned upon his return to Meduseld: he put his very life at risk, as he explained to Aragorn before they parted. I believe that he was willing to do this because he knew at that point who Aragorn was and realized, by his declaration and assertion, what his authority was.

As Éomer prepared to leave Minas Tirith to return to Rohan after the crowing of Aragorn and marriage of Arwen and Aragorn, Aragorn and Eomer hold this converse:


> And last of all Aragorn greeted Éomer of Rohan, and they embraced, and Aragorn said: ‘Between us there can be no word of giving or taking, nor of reward; for we are brethren. In happy hour did Eorl ride from the North, and never has any league of peoples been more blessed, so that neither has ever failed the other, nor shall fail. ...’
> 
> And Éomer answered: ‘Since the day when you rose before me out of the green grass of the downs I have loved you, and that love shall not fail. But now I must depart for a while to my own realm, where there is much to heal and set in order. ...’



My apologies for such a long and convoluted post. I must now return to whittling.


----------



## Alcuin (Sep 15, 2005)

Afterthought (as if what has been posted isn’t too long already):

The first appearance of this declaration and assertion is made not by Aragorn, but by Elrond in answer – but also in indirect challenge – to Boromir.


> ‘And who are you, and what have you to do with Minas Tirith?’ asked Boromir, looking in wonder at the lean face of the Ranger and his weather-stained cloak.
> 
> ‘He is Aragorn son of Arathorn,’ said Elrond; ‘and he is descended through many fathers from Isildur Elendil’s son of Minas Ithil. He is the Chief of the Dúnedain in the North, and few are now left of that folk.’
> …
> ...


This was Elrond’s way of not only introducing Aragorn to the assembled Council, but of reining in Boromir, who from the beginning challenged Aragorn’s right to authority over him and over Gondor, though never directly. Only after he tried to seize the Ring from Frodo did Boromir submit to Aragorn’s authority, and in the end, this submission redeemed him. Compare that to Denethor’s refusal to acknowledge Aragorn as rightful king, a decision which condemned him to a grievous and horrible end, costing the porter his life and nearly ending the life of Faramir as well; and it prevented Gandalf from taking the fields, so that he watched as Éowyn battled the Lord of the Nazgûl from the gardens of the Houses of Healing, when he might have been in the battle himself.

But Faramir accepted Aragorn from the beginning. The last appearance of the declaration and assertion is made by Faramir as Steward of Gondor:


> Faramir met Aragorn in the midst of those there assembled, and he knelt, and said: ‘The last Steward of Gondor begs leave to surrender his office.’ And he held out a white rod; but Aragorn took the rod and gave it back, saying: ‘That office is not ended, and it shall be thine and thy heirs’ as long as my line shall last. Do now thy office!’
> 
> Then Faramir stood up and spoke in a clear voice: ‘Men of Gondor hear now the Steward of this Realm! Behold! one has come to claim the kingship again at last. Here is Aragorn son of Arathorn, chieftain of the Dúnedain of Arnor, Captain of the Host of the West, bearer of the Star of the North, wielder of the Sword Reforged, victorious in battle, whose hands bring healing, the Elfstone, Elessar of the line of Valandil, Isildur’s son, Elendil’s son of Númenor. Shall he be king and enter into the City and dwell there?’
> 
> And all the host and all the people cried yea with one voice.


And so in the end, Aragorn’s declaration and assertion to Éomer and his éored is indeed a form of the declaration that Faramir uses to proclaim him king. And all the people of Minas Tirith agreed. So, it would seem, did Éomer; Éothain was initially more independently-minded.


----------



## Starbrow (Sep 16, 2005)

Excellent post, as always. I never saw Aragorn's statement as being a physical threat; just an over-the-top introduction.


----------



## Inderjit S (Sep 21, 2005)

Great post Alcuin-can't help but disagree with you when you talk about Aragorn's (and Gondor's) authority over the Rohirrim-sure they ceded the (little populated) realm to the Rohirrim, but therein lies the 'problem' (with your assertion), it was given as a gift to the Rohirrim (even then some of the Dunedain were not pleased) because they helped save Gondor from destruction-they were allied to Gondor, but Gondor and it's stewards (or kings, stewards had the powers of kings anyway ) did not have any direct authority over the Rohirrim, who were independent of Gondor, they owed Gondor as much as Gondor owed them. (They were also given the realm partly out of self-interest; Calenardhon was always sparsely populated and open to attack.)



> Éothain was initially more independently-minded.



And ignorant. A real phillistine, so to speak.


----------



## Snaga (Sep 21, 2005)

The other point is that he has changed from his cagey opening gambit of "I am called Strider" which is first response to Eomer's question of who he is. (Incidentally, the delivery of that line by Robert Steven in the BBC Radio adaptation is superb: "I am called.... Strider!" He appears to going to declare himself, and then pauses, and in a tone that is wry, watchful and cunning, announces his name from Bree.)

By now giving his full credentials he also displays to Eomer that he trusts him, and is himself honest and noble, both in title and in deed.

I am personally not sure how big a factor the Oath of Eorl is per se., since the oath is to Gondor, and not to an uncrowned claimant. But by claiming his noble lineage, he demands at the very least respect.


----------



## HLGStrider (Sep 22, 2005)

I always loved the passive "I am called" thing too. I am called Strider but I may not be Strider or I may, but I'm not going to be clear about it. . .


Just sets the mystery there and gives me shiiiiivvvers.


----------



## Inderjit S (Sep 23, 2005)

HLG-so some guy saying "I am called the one who walks in very long strides, but then again I may not be the one who walks in long strides, and since you have not seen me walk you will not know how long my strides are, but they are long" sends shivers down your spine? No wonder Eothain thought the guy was a goofball!


----------



## HLGStrider (Sep 23, 2005)

We single girls get shivers anyway we can. . .


----------



## Alcuin (Sep 24, 2005)

Inderjit S said:


> … about Aragorn's (and Gondor's) authority over the Rohirrim-sure they ceded the (little populated) realm to the Rohirrim, but therein lies the 'problem' (with your assertion), it was given as a gift to the Rohirrim (even then some of the Dunedain were not pleased) because they helped save Gondor from destruction-they were allied to Gondor, but Gondor and it's stewards (or kings, stewards had the powers of kings anyway ) did not have any direct authority over the Rohirrim, who were independent of Gondor, they owed Gondor as much as Gondor owed them. (They were also given the realm partly out of self-interest; Calenardhon was always sparsely populated and open to attack.)



The terms of the Oath of Eorl and Cirion were permanent as long as both kingdoms remained as they were: ruled by the house of Eorl and by the Stewards of Gondor. The immediate background of the Oath and its terms are in _Unfinished Tales_ in the essay “Cirion and Eorl and the Friendship of Gondor and Rohan”, “(iii) Cirion and Eorl”:


> ...Cirion was a man who kept his own counsel. As the diminished army of Gondor made its way south he was accompanied by Eorl and an éored 36 of the Riders of the North. When they came to the Mering Stream Cirion turned to Eorl and said, to men's wonder:
> 
> “Farewell now, Eorl, son of Léod. I will return to my home, where much needs to be set in order. Calenardhon I commit to your care for this time, if you are not in haste to return to your own realm. In three months' time I will meet you here again, and then we will take counsel together.”
> 
> “I will come,” Eorl answered; and so they parted.


These are the terms set forth by Cirion:


> “I will now declare what I have resolved, with the authority of the Stewards of the Kings, to offer to Eorl son of Léod, Lord of the Éothéod, in recognition of the valour of his people and of the help beyond hope that he brought to Gondor in time of dire need. To Eorl I will give in free gift all the great land of Calenardhon from Anduin to Isen. There, if he will, he shall be king, and his heirs after him, and his people shall dwell in freedom while the authority of the Stewards endures, until the Great King returns. No bond shall be laid upon them other than their own laws and will, save in this only: they shall live in perpetual friendship with Gondor and its enemies shall be their enemies while both realms endure. But the same bond shall be laid also on the people of Gondor.”


There is a footnote to the phrase, “until the Great King returns”:


> This was always said in the days of the Stewards, in any solemn pronouncement, though by the time of Cirion (the twelfth Ruling Steward) it had become a formula that few believed would ever come to pass.


 Cirion was committing Calenardhon to the care of the Éothéod “until the Great King returns.” This was made a formal arrangement of the most solemn bonds that either ruler could construct. But now, the authority of the Stewards to hold such a bond was – for the Dúnedain of Gondor – a grave matter.

Now, Éothain would probably not know the terms of the oaths, if indeed he was little more than vaguely familiar with the notion that they existed. He may be forgiven his dismissive behavior: he probably believed that Rohan belonged to the Rohirrim by right. But Éomer was of the House of Eorl and had grown up in the household of Théoden. His education would have been similar to that of Théodred’s, and he would have learned the terms of the oath.

Who then is Aragorn? He is indeed “the Great King” returned, and now the Oaths must be reckoned. He says to Éomer upon their meeting:


> None may live now as they have lived, and few shall keep what they call their own.


I believe this is a direct reference to the Oaths of Eorl and Cirion. Later in the essay in _Unfinished Tales_, Tolkien writes of the Oath spoken by Cirion,


> Such an oath had not been heard in Middle-earth since Elendil himself had sworn alliance with Gil-galad King of the Eldar.


And to this is a footnote that begins,


> And was not used again until King Elessar returned and renewed the bond in that same place with the King of the Rohirrim, Éomer the eighteenth descended from Eorl. It had been held lawful only for the King of Númenor to call Eru to witness, and then only on the most grave and solemn occasions. … Cirion was the Steward of the Kings descended from Elendil, and so far as Gondor was concerned had as regent all their powers – until the King should come again.


Aragorn and Éomer renewed the oaths that Eorl and Cirion had taken because Aragorn was the Great King, and upon his return, the grant required that the agreement Cirion made with Eorl receive the approval of the King.

It seems to me that Éomer understood this. Besides his astonishment at seeing this unusual company and their strange appearance in a seemingly empty field, he was now confronted with what neither the Eorlingas nor the Stewards ever expected: the Great King. That is who Aragorn claimed to be when he stepped out of the grass, and I believe Éomer’s actions demonstrate that he recognized that claim.

Aragorn is staking his claims when he crosses the old borders of Gondor; when he first meets the people who live within those borders; and at the Stone of Erech. The once place Aragorn does not press his claim is before the gates of Minas Tirith after the victory in Pelennor Fields to avoid conflict with Denethor during the war, a decision Imrahil commends as wise; but later, at the behest of Prince Imrahil, Aragorn is announced as the King Elessar by the heralds as the Captains lead their troops through Ithilien to the Morannon. Aragorn is claiming his kingdom, piece by piece by piece. Eomer, who became King of Rohan the same day Aragorn was first recognized as the rightful King of Gondor (first by Imrahil, then by Faramir and Ioreth in the Houses of Healing), was the first person to whom Aragorn presented his claim inside the old borders of Gondor.


----------



## Snaga (Sep 24, 2005)

And yet, once Aragorn delivers his 'credentials' Eomer refers to not as 'King' but as 'the Heir of Elendil'. This suggests a recognition of a latent claim, not a done deal. He tolerates Eothain's outburst which he surely would not if he considered Aragorn to in fact be the King of Gondor. 

It seems to me that Eomer is fully aware of what Aragorn's claim means for Rohan, and he believes what Aragorn says, but he does not bound by the Oath of Eorl. He is not bound by it, because Aragorn is not ruler of Gondor. He says that in his heart he wants to help, but believes he cannot legally do so. The conclusion of the conversation is not that Aragorn can overrule the laws of Rohan, but in fact Aragorn himself recognises Eomer's right to carry out his laws. However since the rule is that no stranger can wander through Rohan, Aragorn points out that he is not a stranger having been in the service of Rohan long before. Thus Eomer finds the legal grounds to let Aragorn continue, although he knows that Theoden may not agree. To cover that he requests Aragorn to come to Edoras to prove him right.


----------



## Alcuin (Sep 24, 2005)

Snaga said:


> And yet, once Aragorn delivers his 'credentials' Eomer refers to not as 'King' but as 'the Heir of Elendil'. This suggests a recognition of a latent claim, not a done deal. He tolerates Eothain's outburst which he surely would not if he considered Aragorn to in fact be the King of Gondor.
> 
> It seems to me that Eomer is fully aware of what Aragorn's claim means for Rohan, and he believes what Aragorn says, but he does not bound by the Oath of Eorl. He is not bound by it, because Aragorn is not ruler of Gondor. He says that in his heart he wants to help, but believes he cannot legally do so. The conclusion of the conversation is not that Aragorn can overrule the laws of Rohan, but in fact Aragorn himself recognises Eomer's right to carry out his laws. However since the rule is that no stranger can wander through Rohan, Aragorn points out that he is not a stranger having been in the service of Rohan long before. Thus Eomer finds the legal grounds to let Aragorn continue, although he knows that Theoden may not agree. To cover that he requests Aragorn to come to Edoras to prove him right.


Yes, I think I basically agree with that, except that Aragorn’s is no “latent” claim: the latent claim was that of his forefathers, the previous Chieftains of the Dúnedain, who had the claim but did not press it. Aragorn is asserting his claim: his is now an “active” claim.

I agree that Aragorn is not yet the King of Gondor. He is, however, the rightful King of Gondor, he is pressing his claim at every point at which it advances his cause, and as recognition of his claim becomes more and more widespread – first in Rohan, and then in Gondor, beginning (oddly enough) at Erech and the southern fiefs and finally in Minas Tirith, there is in the end no opposition, and he formally and legally becomes King by acclamation of the people.

The situation is best described by Denethor before he commits suicide by self-immolation.


> 'With the left hand thou wouldst use me for a little while as a shield against Mordor, and with the right bring up this Ranger of the North to supplant me.
> 
> ‘...Even were his claim proved to me, still he comes but of the line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity.’


With a little restatement: Gandalf, You are using the military power of Gondor to shield [Eriador, and by extension Rivendell and Lórien?] from invasion, while plotting to put the Chieftain of the Dúnedain whom you control on the throne, making me a mere functionary and not ruler. Even if he is the rightful King [and notice the phrasing, which indicates that Denethor not only suspects that he is, but that the Council would be likely to accept him: he’s had decades to ponder whether the Chieftain of the Dúnedain has the rightful claim, it bothers him intensely, and he, Denethor intended to use a veto to prevent Aragorn’s ascension, if necessary], he is unfit to rule, and I should be left as sovereign.

Éomer is in a real bind: he can be punished, even executed, for helping Aragorn; and yet he accepts the claim, recognizes its legitimacy, understands both the risk and the opportunity, and decides that the right thing to do is to help. And he does everything he can to help Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli.


----------



## Grond (Sep 24, 2005)

I gotta go with Alcuin here. There is little question (in my mind) that Aragorn is announcing/challenging/declaring his claim as the direct descendent of Elendil. He is purposely playing on the Rohirrim's honor and bringing the Oath of Eorl into play. He knows that "if" Eomer acknowledges his claim... Eomer will have no choice but to aid him. I stand by my earlier assertion that Aragorn may have recognized Eomer (in likeness to his father) which is illustrated by the following quote:


> _from the Two Towers_
> ...You I have not seen before, for you are young, but I have spoken with Eomund your father, and with Theoden son of Thengel. Never in former days would any high lord of this land have constrained a man to abandon such a quest as mine...


----------



## e.Blackstar (Sep 24, 2005)

I think he was just proclaiming his name and his lineage...but in a very impressive and somewhat intimidating way.


----------



## Snaga (Sep 25, 2005)

Alcuin, I agree that Aragorn is actively pressing his claim. This encounter is notable because it is the first time that Aragorn sets out his credentials within the ancient bounds of Gondor.

I also agree that Eomer would have been aware of the significance of this.

I think the point where there maybe disagreement (not sure) is this. I believe Eomer acts as he does out of honour, because he believes he should help the Heir of Elendil because of their ancient allegiance and because it is right to do so, and he finds the legal grounds to justify this to himself. I don't believe that he feels _compelled_ to act this way because of Oath of Eorl. I think if he did, he would not need to debate with himself the legalities of the situation. Grond says:


> There is little question (in my mind) that Aragorn is announcing/challenging/declaring his claim as the direct descendent of Elendil. He is purposely playing on the Rohirrim's honor and bringing the Oath of Eorl into play. He knows that "if" Eomer acknowledges his claim... Eomer will have no choice but to aid him.


 But it seems entirely clear to me that Eomer does have a choice. "Choose swiftly!" says Aragorn rhetorically, but then allows him plenty of time to make his choice - hence their lengthy discussion.


----------



## Alcuin (Sep 25, 2005)

Snaga said:


> I think the point where there maybe disagreement (not sure) is this. I believe Eomer acts as he does out of honour, because he believes he should help the Heir of Elendil because of their ancient allegiance and because it is right to do so, and he finds the legal grounds to justify this to himself. I don't believe that he feels _compelled_ to act this way because of Oath of Eorl. I think if he did, he would not need to debate with himself the legalities of the situation. Grond says: But it seems entirely clear to me that Eomer does have a choice. "Choose swiftly!" says Aragorn rhetorically, but then allows him plenty of time to make his choice - hence their lengthy discussion.


You get no disagreement from me, Snaga.


----------



## Kirinki54 (Sep 25, 2005)

HLGStrider said:


> So, you think starting with Elendil! was a way to gather mental strength. Like starting with "God help me?"


 
Something like that. Aragorn asserting _himself_ in a moment of utmost importance.

That said, I can go along with the brilliant analysis presented by Alcuin regarding the rest of his speech. What I discussed was the exclamation 'Elendil'.

I do not assume that Aragorn was de facto declaring his heritage to neither the Balrog nor to Orcs at Parth Galen or Helm´s Deep. But gathering strength, definitely.

This interpretation does not conflict with Aragorn´s further speech to the Rohirrim. In this case, it incidentally serves to reinforce it.


----------



## Kelendil (Sep 27, 2005)

None of the above!

He is stating this is who I am, this is what I stand for, consider this before you decide how to deal with me. All those who oppose the enemy should unite, not quarrel over trivial matters.

I suppose that fits into the category of stating creds!!!


----------



## HLGStrider (Sep 27, 2005)

Maybe I should have said "forcefully or assertively stating his credentials."


----------



## Hammersmith (Sep 27, 2005)

Maybe you should have. When will you ever learn!? Why can there be no harmony?

Oh, and Kelendil, isn't your Aragorn tying himself in knots by threatening Eomer and insisting he wants no quarrels?


----------



## Kelendil (Oct 1, 2005)

Wanting no quarrels does not mean he is unwilling to take part if necessary.


----------



## Ithilethiel (Sep 8, 2018)




----------



## Deleted member 12094 (Sep 9, 2018)

Wherever she finds these things!


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 10, 2018)

So this is what I get when I share things "off-forum" -- grr! 

I kid! 

Anyway ---- I wanted to resurrect this fascinating thread for several reasons: for its intrinsic interest; because at least a couple of the posters are still with us, and I wanted to see if they have new insights to bring; and also (of course ) because I wanted to add my two bits -- somewhat random as they are.

First, it's worth noting that, as the Rohirrim are modeled on Anglo-Saxon culture (except for the horses), their customs and attitudes follow those found in Old English literature; some of the speeches, in fact, are direct translations from Beowulf, as Tom Shippey discusses in his two books

In this case, Eomer is following standard protocol: challenge and response. "Who are you, and what are you doing in this land?".

Or I should say, _attempting _ to; as has been pointed out, rather than following the "correct" procedure, and immediately responding with his right name, lineage, and purpose, Aragorn cautiously "masks" his identity, giving only his nickname (though even here, there are precedents in ancient literature -- and especially folktales); he also witholds his true purpose, saying only that he is "hunting Orcs".

Eomer quite rightly questions this: "That is no name for a Man that you give". But then "correct procedure" is once again derailed, when his thoughtless remark about the Lady rouses Gimli's ire, and challenge. He tries to bring things back on track, pointing out that "the stranger should declare himself first", but bends enough to give his own name, lineage, and title.

Nevertheless, the situation escalates, until Aragorn interposes himself: "Your pardon, Eomer!". The immediate cause is the danger of violence, yet I can't help thinking there is an element, at least, of a recognition by Aragorn that his party, beginning with himself, has not followed customary form. After a further cautious exchange about allegiances ("First tell me whom you serve"), he is ready to declare himself.

As to that declaration, I think it is, in part, a challenge, not merely to "choose sides", though that is important, but also a personal one, man to man. Although Eomer does say "Loth am I to begin a battle of one hundred against three", I wonder if this would not be seen as a cowardly, "unmanly" act.

Be that as it may, the "choosing" is the crux of the episode. Alcuin made a cogent argument for what may have been going on in Eomer's mind: that Aragorn's claim, if true, would make him his sovereign. I'm not totally convinced about this, as he says:

_"We shall not forsake our old alliance with Gondor"_.

And I have to wonder if, in the heat of the moment, there was time to unravel the complex history of Gondor, Arnor, Rohan, and all the conflicting claims, counterclaims, and alliances, to arrive finally at the true relationship.

My own feeling is that the real conflict is one that has structured literature since its beginnings: the conflict between two conceptions of "law".

The overcoming of an absurd or arbitrary law forms the basis of countless comedies -- it does in many of Shakespeare's, for instance -- and the failure to do so, or the destruction caused by it, structures many a tragedy; think of Antigone.

Here we have an absurd law; Eomer says:

_"It is against our law to let strangers wander at will in our land, until the the king himself give them leave"_

Yet how can strangers obtain "leave" from the king, without "wandering" into his land? And Eomer acknowledges that this was not always so:

_"We welcomed guests kindly in better days"
_
The conflict, then, is between this arbitray law, and the law of good vs. evil. Eomer is torn between the two: _"How should a man judge in such times?". _And Aragorn lays out the "true" law starkly:

_'As he has ever judged. . .Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house.'
_
It could be argued that the law barring strangers is neither arbitrary nor absurd, given the circumstances; "desperate times call for desperate measures". The king's law (or is it Wormtongue's?) could in fact be called a "natural" reaction to the present danger. But this, as I've mentioned before, is a conflict between two conceptions of "natural law": one represents nature as an order, and one belongs to nature as a fallen world.

It's also worth noticing the direct parallel (one of many) between this episode and Frodo's encounter with Faramir and his Rangers: here too we have the same conflict between arbitrary and "higher" law. The stakes are greater, as befits the increasing tension of the plot: not only is the Ring involved, but the consequences for the "decider" are more dire; one feels that, though Eomer says:

_"In this, I place myself, and maybe my very life, in the keeping of your good faith"
_
there is a grave difference from Faramir's words:

_'My life will be justly forfeit, if I now choose a course that proves ill for my city.'_

Denethor would likely be far less forgiving than Theoden. And the arbitrary law is a more savage one:

_'I am commanded to slay all whom I find in this land without the leave of the Lord of Gondor.'
_
I won't pursue the parallels further; fortunately, in both episodes the higher law is chosen.

I'll end this overlong post by saying that this thread has done what all the best threads here do: cause me to reread the relevant passages with "new eyes".

It makes me feel honored to be a member.
_
_


----------

