# The Problem of Eagle - can we put an end to it?



## Burzum (Oct 21, 2008)

I think we're all familiar with this Problem - that the Eagles could have just carried Frodo into Mordor and Frodo could have dropped the Ring into the Crack of Doom. The full argument is presented here (I suggest that you read this article before coming up with arguments):

http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/eagles.html

Maybe it is indeed a mistake on Tolkien's part. However, even if Tolkien left a plot hole, it is possible for us to fill that hole in. The Lord of the Rings is an excellent series of books as it is, but I cannot allow such a major plot hole to exist (maybe I'm just weird, but well...).

So, what I'm proposing is that we come up with arguments (and criticize those arguments so that we can verify their validity) against this Eagle strategy. And it is important to note that there needs to be a good reason for the Fellowship to *not even try *that strategy (if we can come up with reasons for them to not even have _considered _it, it would be ideal, but it seems rather impossible). This is important because even if the Eagle strategy is somehow bound to fail or have a high chance of failing, if the Council of Elrond considered the Eagle plan to have a better chance of succeeding than just carrying it out on foot, they would have tried it regardless of what we know as a reader, after having read the entire story. And this point works either way, because if the Council had sufficient reason to rule the plan out, the plot hole is gone even if we know that the reason is false (what available information the Council has is the important part). I think we would be able to come up with something, since this last point was not something thoroughly discussed in the article above.


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## YayGollum (Oct 21, 2008)

Dang. I like coming up with all kinds of plausible ideas for why things did or didn't happen, but now I can only use super official stuff that's definitely nailed down by that Tolkien guy? Okay, fine. I read the thing. The bit about Galadriel commanding the Lord of the giant eagles makes no sense, to myself. Since when does she get to command other rulers about? The thought instantly poofed to brain that the giant eagles are just a bunch of flying monkeys, and Galadriel has the hat that commands them. The capitalized Wise knew that she had it, but nobody else. They just never brought it up because they want to make sure that it is only used when they really need it. 

Argh! But I just came up with something crazy that isn't already nailed down. Whoops. That bit about Galadriel commanding him still makes no sense, but mayhaps Gwaihir just meant it in a, "Yeah, I only did it because I wanted to, but, man, that she-elf was insistent!" sort of way. 

Anyways, I agree that there is no evidence that they are any kind of ban, preventing them from helping out more often. It seems as if they are a bit more neutral than everyone else, though. Not as concerned about Middle Earth? Just hanging out there because they like the food, but they'd head for Valinor if Sauron ever came for them? Towards why they weren't even discussed, even though the evil torturer Gandalf had mentioned them just recently, I figure that it must have been really obvious to everyone, and the reader was never informed of the reason. I figure that the average Joe wouldn't know much about the giant eagles. Some might think that they're just animals, some might not now about just how awesome their capabilities were and merely thought of them as some dangerous and exotic race that kept to itself. The capitalized Wise would know better, though, and since they didn't speak up about it, they must have known better. 

I still like my crazy theory that Sauron really hated giant eagles and took apparently well-known measure against them. He'd seen them mess plans up more than once, so he knew not to count them out. The One Ring works especially quickly on giant eagles, and Mordor has all kinds of unwritten about defenses against them. When they showed up in the book, though, armies were already distracted, so Sauron just sent his best bet, the Nazgul, whose winged steeds were obviously corrupted giant eagles, again showing off how much he hates them. 

Towards those other two plot holes, the Nazgul could cross water, they just didn't like to. The days of carefully inching themselves into the Shire saved the day. Ulmo laughed. And Saruman didn't mess with the evil torturer Gandalf, of course, because he was afraid of the guy. He didn't think that he could escape, so he decided to just let him rot, rather than trying anything too risky.


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## Burzum (Oct 21, 2008)

I agree on the Galadriel thing. 

On why they weren't discussed, you're explanation can certainly work - but as far as it really _was _obvious.

It is a possibility that Sauron would have taken measures against the eagles. But the problem is, the Council has to know about those measures at least to an extent, and more importantly they have to be convinced that riding the eagles is less likely to achieve success than walking on foot - and walking on foot didn't have much a chance (whether it eventually succeeded or not is irrelevant). 

But this brings us to another point... what exactly was Gandalf thinking? The Ring must be destroyed, sure, but how were they going to reach Mount Doom? Going through the Black Gate is absurd, and Gandalf doesn't seem to like the path of Cirith Ungol, which seems to have been a far more "safer" (though not really safe at all) path. He doesn't seem to have expected Frodo to take that path. But then, which one did he expect Frodo to take? The Black Gate?


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## Aisteru (Oct 21, 2008)

I would say that the Eagles, much like the Ents, are not concerned with the affairs of the races of Middle Earth. Sure, they do favors and whatnot, but only for those whom they truly respect and are in dire need. Also, Mordor would be a lot harder to get into when the full forces of Sauron stood waiting within it's mountains. At the time when the Eagles took Frodo and Sam away from Mount Doom, a vast majority of the troops were busy fighting the men of Gondor and Rohan outside the Black Gate. I don't think it is a plothole so much as the manner of the Eagles (though not thouroughly explained).

Plus, the story would have been terribly dull had the Eagles simply flown over and dropped the ring into Mount Doom. Tolkien was much to good for a lask luster story like that.


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## YayGollum (Oct 22, 2008)

The evil Aragorn, a good buddy of the evil torturer Gandalf and Elrond, was hanging around quite close to Mordor. The evil torturer Gandalf is well known for showing up where he's not wanted, too. They must have scoped the place out. There were earlier opportunities for all kinds of people to scope the place out. Eagle rides would be a really great and obvious answer to many, but if eagle defenses were also very obvious, the question wouldn't come up. If I happened to be Sauron, I'd be wary of any deus ex machinas flying around, not just because I, as a reader, know that they're a deus ex machina. He had reasons to be wary. 

Towards what the evil torturer Gandalf was thinking, I wouldn't be surprised if he was thinking of Cirith Ungol. He was just afraid about it because he wondered how they found out about it and doubted that they'd be able to survive without a bunch of meat shields and magic missiles. Also, there could have been other routes that we never got to find out about. Less giant spider-laden routes?


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## Burzum (Oct 23, 2008)

Okay, that makes perfect sense. I think only one more step is needed: _how?_

Sauron could have defended it by a combination of the Nazgul and Orc archers. I can't be sure if only one of those defense systems would have succeeded in defending against the eagle attack, but with them combined, it seems like Sauron could have easily defended it.

But we have to consider it from the perspective of the Council. In that case, the Nazgul can't be a proper solution because it looks like the Council was unaware of the fact that the Nazgul had flying mounts (reasonable, since they never used the Fell Beasts before). But Orc archers were a real possiblity, entirely plausible to them, so that counts. And besides, they would have guessed something else to be there besdies the Orcs, even if they had no idea what it would be.

I think it is _almost _good enough, but I just want to make it clearer. How many eagles were present (or available, if there can be found evidence that not all eagles were available) at the time? I can't remember how many eagles fought in front of the Black Gate (or at the Battle of the Five Armies, though that one is less relevant), but if we can narrow the number down to below ten, I think it would be good enough. If there is no suggestion at all about the number of eagles, then we can just work backward and conclude that there weren't that many eagles.


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## YayGollum (Oct 23, 2008)

Dang. I totally would have said that Sauron would have gotten a kick out of using the corrupted giant eagles he was holding in reserve. That squadron of hotshot Orcish pilots was just sitting around, while twiddling thumbs.  Where do you get the idea that the things were a surprise to the capitalized Wise? I don't see any information on that, either way. Except that, of course, if Sauron did have a squadron of hotshot Orcish pilots, why didn't he use them? But that is easily explained via ---> He'd only have used those if he was really desperate. The Nazgul were way better at controlling those creepy things than Orcs, so he'd only bring in the Orcs if he had to. They just weren't ready for it, since the battle had been going on for a while before the eagles showed up, so Sauron figured that they were minding their own business, yet again. 

Besides extra corrupted giant eagles and archers, I could come up with all kinds of crazy ideas for what could be there (the more malleable children of Shelob, the giant net-casting spiders!), but I don't have any decent evidence. It makes no sense that Mount Doom didn't have all kinds of defenses. Sure, he had that self-preservation programming built into his ring, but what would he have done if they sent a Dwarf to destroy the thing? Those guys were made to resist evil more powerful than him. But oh well. 

Towards the number of eagles, I am fairly certain that there were lots more than ten. They are never spoken of as some kind of small and elite force, just as a race of awesome thingys. They were counted as an army at that Battle Of Five Of Them. Only the three showed up at Mount Doom, but enough showed up in the first place that Sauron's army was all kinds of terrified.


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## Ares B (Dec 4, 2009)

I know I am necroposting, but since this question seems to crop up all the time and over decades - it was even suggested for the 50's movie project - I'd like to throw in my 2 silver pennies. Apologies in advance.

So what if Gandalf could persuade an Eagle to carry the Ring to Mordor?

Sauron was more than a bright eye on top of a tower. His will had terrible force. It nearly broke Frodo at Amon Hen, when the contact was just seconds and He was only dimly aware of him. Aragorn could resist him through the Palantír, but barely. He got away only because he could wrestle the stone away from Him in time. How long would an Eagle have to face His full attention and rapidly growing power, while flying right towards Him? Hours, days?

Add to this the burden of the Ring. It was heavy when there was a mountain range between it and Sauron, but after the mountains, it became almost unbearable. How heavy would it be to a flying Eagle with nothing between it and Mordor.

Then, there's the corruption. The stronger you are, the more the Ring tempts you. Even Gandalf didn't dare to touch it. The Eagles are the most powerful creatures of Middle-Earth, even though they stay apart from worldly matters. It would have a devastating effect on the Eagle.

The way I see it, submitted to all the torture the Eagle would either fly directly to Barad-Dûr and hand the Ring over, or crash land halfway - and Sauron would know exactly where.


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## Bucky (Dec 4, 2009)

I haven't read the thread or the link - time's just not available now.

Don't forget Gwaihir didn't even want to carry Gandalf off the top of Orthanc....

"I was sent to bear messages not old men (whatever) and can't bear you to the ends of the earth" 

Gandalf was lucky he was flown to Edoras.

First, remember that although Galadriel possibly could & did apparently contact Gwaihir to search for Gandalf, she was nowhere near the Council of Elrond when it was decided to send the Ring into The Fire...........

Now, how does the Council of Elrond get a message to the Eagles saying they need a round trip flight for 2-4 from Rivendell to Mount Doom?
Check online for the best prices on Eagle Airlines? 

Climb up to their inacessable erries? 

(Note: I can't spel two god)

Perhaps they could climb as far up the Misty Mountains as possible and yell at the eagles & wave their arms hoping to be seen as Sauron conquers Middle-earth? 

I don't see much interaction between Elves/Dwarves/Men and Eagles unless the Eagles initiate it in Tolkien's works anywhere, Silmarillion included.
Not ONCE - other than Galdriel's unexplained involvment, which could easily be explained by Radaghast's telling animals to be on the watch via Saruman's orders - the same ones that got Gandalf off Orthanc in the first place. Most likely, Radaghast told Gwaihir to check in & inform Galdriel at that same time & Gwaihir, being near Lothlorien, seeing the Battle of the Peak between Gandalf & Durin's Bane, went himself to inform Galadriel as opposed to Galadriel 'summoning' Gwaihir with some 'telepathic' powers.
Galadriel, getting Gwaihir's information and being no dummy, put one and one together, and then asked Gwaihir to be on the lookout for Gandalf, who had disappeared right where these strange happenings such as lightening leaping from the top of Zirk-Zigal or Celebdil were occuring.

That's the bottom line because stone cold says so. (inside joke)


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## Alcuin (Dec 5, 2009)

Those are good twists on a old question, *Bucky* and *Ares B*!

When Gwaihir picked Gandalf off the mountain, he said the wizard was light as a feather: maybe that was a Gift so that later the eagle could also bear him to Mount Doom to rescue the hobbits. But I think you are correct: finding them would be difficult, and assaulting the mountain of fire by air with a watchful Mordor in between would probably have brought on the intercession of the MSMFC, the Mordor Special Mission Flying Corps. (The graphic and its description as symbol of "MSMFC, Mordor Special Mission Flying Corps" are Tolkien's, from _Tolkien Artist & Illustrator_, pp 189-190.)







[noparse][[/noparse]What in the world is _necroposting_? It sounds awful...[noparse]][/noparse]


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## Ares B (Dec 6, 2009)

Necroposting is an awful thing, of course: bringing back a dead thread in the (often vain) hopes that it will be something smarter than a mindless zombie. Like a vampire or lich. 

The Mordor Special Mission Flying Corps would certainly be a formidable foe for the eagle-traveling fellowship, but the main threat would come from Sauron's will coming from two directions, direct eye contact and through the Ring. If that incredibly strong will was focused on the exact location of the Eagle for a prolonged time, it would either overpower it or weaken it so it'd be easy pickings for the MSMFC.

The Fellowship's only hope was staying in secret and misleading Sauron into believing Gondor had the Ring.


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## Bucky (Dec 6, 2009)

Ares B said:


> Necroposting is an awful thing, of course: bringing back a dead thread in the (often vain) hopes that it will be something smarter than a mindless zombie. Like a vampire or lich.
> 
> The Mordor Special Mission Flying Corps would certainly be a formidable foe for the eagle-traveling fellowship, but the main threat would come from Sauron's will coming from two directions, direct eye contact and through the Ring. If that incredibly strong will was focused on the exact location of the Eagle for a prolonged time, it would either overpower it or weaken it so it'd be easy pickings for the MSMFC.
> 
> The Fellowship's only hope was staying in secret and misleading Sauron into believing Gondor had the Ring.



Very good.......

As far as the MSMFC, the Council of Elrond had no idea that existed until about 3 months after the Fellowship departed and Legolas shot the winged steed out of the sky that night they were attacked by the Orcs on the Eastern shore of Anduin as they floated down the river, so I don't see that figuring into the decision making by the Council.

Besides, as Gandalf said, (roughly), "Having it (the Ring), we will put him (Sauron) out of his thinking. It will not enter into his mind that having the Ring any will seek to destroy it."

Therefore, why would Sauron even consider an incoming eagle if he doesn't expect the owners of the Ring to want to destroy the Ring, but to attempt to use it against him?


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## Simon C (Dec 7, 2009)

Perhaps there was an agreement between two "purposes", a la Belgariad/Malloreon?

The "Good" purpose was unable to use eagles militarily - in return the "evil" purpose's access to Dragons was removed


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## HLGStrider (Dec 7, 2009)

Just pointing out that Sauron was known to use birds as spies, so even if he wasn't thought to have the Nazgul up and flying yet, there are all sorts of other possibilities for winged annoying things that could be involved with the. MSMFC. 

Aragorn had very possibly entered Mordor before, in fact, I think there is some text supporting that he had, but I'm too tired now to look it up. Albeit this was not during a time of open war, but if the heir of Isildur who Sauron really wanted dead was sneaking around (got to be Sneakkky, Charlie, sneaky! . .. Sorry. . .where was I?). . .oh yeah, if Aragorn was there, there had to be land routes that would go unwatched. 

I also agree with Yay in that I don't think Galadriel had direct control over the eagles, but rather a good deal of influence. Perhaps she knew about Gwaihir's lovechild with Smaug's sister, Trixie. 

That said, the council of Elrond goes through multiple options of "what to do with the ring." They were bound to miss some. If Tolkien had addressed the Eagles we'd probably be sitting around wondering why the ring wasn't sent overseas or dropped into the ocean or given to Tom Bombadil. It's already a pretty long chapter.


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## Ares B (Dec 8, 2009)

Bucky said:


> Therefore, why would Sauron even consider an incoming eagle if he doesn't expect the owners of the Ring to want to destroy the Ring, but to attempt to use it against him?



Because the Eagles were messengers of Manwë and thus enemies of evil. Sauron would certainly be interested of why one would head his way from Rivendell, one of the known bastions of the good side. One look at the exposed ring-bearing Eagle would be enough.


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## Bucky (Dec 8, 2009)

Ares B said:


> Because the Eagles were messengers of Manwë and thus enemies of evil. Sauron would certainly be interested of why one would head his way from Rivendell, one of the known bastions of the good side. One look at the exposed ring-bearing Eagle would be enough.



*Those eagles were not the same eagles that were messengers of Manwe.

They were simply over 6000 years worth of descendants. Thorondor = 180 feet. Gwaihir = about 15 - 20 feet. HoME, 'Volume 10 'Myths revealed' speaks clearly that Ainur in animals that breed become less & less 'spiritually powerful' too.
Sauron too, is mentioned that after the Akallabeth to have thought he had seperated the Valar from Men forever.
And indeed, Tolkien says himself that the Valar drew increasingly less active in involvement in Middle-earth's affairs: 'To the downfall of Morgoth, Manwe sent his herald (and a host) to the downfall of Sauron would he not send some lesser but still mighty spirit coequal with Sauron in their beginnings? I think so.' (paraphrase). *


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## Ares B (Dec 8, 2009)

Bucky said:


> *Those eagles were not the same eagles that were messengers of Manwe. *



Ok, my bad. I admit I haven't read HoME.

Nonetheless, I maintain the Great Eagles, though lesser than their ancestor, were still a powerful force and their movements, especially towards Mordor, would gain the attention of Sauron. And the strength of his will when directed at a target was formidable. Frodo could hardly bear a brief contact with it at Amon Hen. 

A Ring-bearing Eagle might resist it longer but not much, especially if they were not as mighty as the Messengers of Manwë.


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## Astrance (Dec 13, 2009)

Well... wouldn't Frodo riding an Eagle all the way to mount Doom be... more than ridiculous in the first place ?  You made my day, guys, now I have to think of a hobbit having tea while riding an Eagle, diving from time to time to avoid the odd Orc arrow and then landing smoothly on mount Doom to cast the damn thing where it belongs xD

Anyway, as someone rightly pointed before, the Eagles just don't meddle with Elves or Men, unless they _really_ felt like it.

Oh dear, I can't but imagine Elrond's face if someone had suggested this during the Council


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## Aernil (Jan 7, 2010)

> Besides, as Gandalf said, (roughly), "Having it (the Ring), we will put him (Sauron) out of his thinking. It will not enter into his mind that having the Ring any will seek to destroy it."
> 
> Therefore, why would Sauron even consider an incoming eagle if he doesn't expect the owners of the Ring to want to destroy the Ring, but to attempt to use it against him?




The principal reason Sauron would have defences against eagles would quite naturally be the fact that they are descendants of those that served the Valar (and they had a hand -or should I say wing - in many of the battles with Morgoth).

So any Eagle flying into Mordor would very quickly be spotted and eliminated. Perhaps Sauron even learned of Gandalf's escape from Orthanc aided by Gwaihir through the Palantiri. 

And let's not forget Saruman, Gwaihir swept Gandalf from under his very nose. His servants would not look kindly to eagles flying over either, and there were some of Saruman's servants in Mordor.

The council did not even discuss this as the risk of detection was too high, and for the exact same reason the council did not send the Ring to Gondor: it would have been too obvious, and therefore not stand a chance.

Anyway, my two cents...


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## Aredhel Alatàr (Mar 18, 2010)

To me the Eagle-problem remains a gaping hole in the plot one wants to ignore blatantly just for the sake of one's sanity.  

Tolkien _wanted_ to make the journey difficult, and indeed it is necessary for the moral message of the Lord of the Rings that it be so. However, the very difficulty of the quest sometimes brings his characters in such tight corners that, unless something extraordinary happens to help them, they will die. Period. Hence the eagles.

They are a kind of dei ex machina of Middle Earth: Maedhros is hanging over a fiery chasm...dial the Eagles. Gandalf is prisoner in Orthanc...call the Eagles. Frodo and Sam are an inch away from death by melting into lava, and if they die they won't be able to illustrate the noble concept of how some must lose the Shire for others to gain it...need I say it? EAGLES.

Yes, they do sound like the extreme remedy for Situations Mission: Impossible. Indeed, they are. All in all, though, I am so happy with the sheer majesty of Tolkien's work I will readily accept this as a lesser evil. For when I am feeling particularly iconoclastic, I can always re-watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yqVD0swvWU

Aredhel


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## Astrance (Mar 19, 2010)

Well, I suppose Arwen would have objected to Aragorn mooning Sauron anyway. Getting ghost warriors to honour their pledge sounds better in history books ^^

More seriously, the Eagles are more like an « independent force » to me. They don't interfere with Elves' and Men's quabbles, because they are strangers to them. Like we, for example, wouldn't help in any way a feral cat (or nine of them) throw a strange catnip toy in a remote dustbin. Although we would probably lend a hand to our particular pet, who could be called Mithrandir, if he meowed piteously enough. Just because, well, we like him.

*is now stuck with a « cat-Gandalf stuck in a tree » picture in her head*


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## HLGStrider (Mar 19, 2010)

I aid all cats. . .


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## Astrance (Mar 20, 2010)

So do I, but then, some ferals aren't exactly talkative ^^


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## Ithrynluin (Mar 20, 2010)

We might as well open a thread titled "The problem of Valar" and ask why they didn't simply traipse over to Middle-earth and kick Sauron's butt? Plot hole!!!!1one

The answer is because within Middle-earth, as within our own world, everything is subject to rules and free will is not just a concept but a reality.

The eagles are not merely a convenient device to be used when all else failed. They are an extension of the Valar and therefore of Eru Iluvatar, doing their bidding only in the most dire of predicaments, when the free peoples of Middle-earth have exhausted all of their strength fighting evil and failed to bring about its downfall by acting out of their free will. Only then do the Valar react by using the eagles as a last resort to get things (their or Eru's vision) back on track.

Tolkien did not make a mistake and there is no _problem_ of eagle.


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## HLGStrider (Mar 20, 2010)

I like Sharky's post. 

The major message I get from the ending of the Lord of the Rings is that mortals can only succeed without divine intervention to a point. Then they rely on a lucky stumble from Gollum into a Volcano or Eagles.


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## in_a_days (Mar 23, 2010)

Aisteru said:


> I would say that the Eagles, much like the Ents, are not concerned with the affairs of the races of Middle Earth. Sure, they do favors and whatnot, but only for those whom they truly respect and are in dire need. Also, Mordor would be a lot harder to get into when the full forces of Sauron stood waiting within it's mountains. At the time when the Eagles took Frodo and Sam away from Mount Doom, a vast majority of the troops were busy fighting the men of Gondor and Rohan outside the Black Gate. I don't think it is a plothole so much as the manner of the Eagles (though not thouroughly explained).
> 
> Plus, the story would have been terribly dull had the Eagles simply flown over and dropped the ring into Mount Doom. Tolkien was much to good for a lask luster story like that.


 
This explanation is probably closest to my intuitive feelings. Though these Eagles of the third age are only descendants of the emissaries of old, I feel like they are still representations of Manwe and his will in Middle Earth. In The Council of Elrond it is said that sending the ring across the sea is not an option because those that dwell in the Undying Lands "would not receive it." So if the Valar are unwilling to dispose of the ring for Middle Earth's sake, it follows that their emissaries (though removed by years an generations) would be equally unwilling to "receive" or dispose of the One Ring.


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## Meretrix (Mar 31, 2010)

Have you ever tried flying over an active volcano? It's very hot.


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## e.Blackstar (Jun 16, 2010)

Aisteru said:


> I would say that the Eagles, much like the Ents, are not concerned with the affairs of the races of Middle Earth. Sure, they do favors and whatnot, but only for those whom they truly respect and are in dire need.


 
This sums up my initial thought. There are many places in LotR, as well as The Hobbit, in which various species/races (particularly the animalistic ones...Beorn, anyone?) show a lack of concern for the affairs of others. The Eagles are animals, and though they may be intelligent animals who maintain relationships with Gandalf and Galadriel (and probably others), they are fundamentally different in their character and worldview. This view maybe goes a little against the grain of 'The Hobbit', in which they appear as much more subservient, but there are hundreds of tiny discrepancies between the two stories, including certain people doing or saying things that will later appear to be "out of character" for them. I think it's perfectly reasonable to say that the Eagles do not generally concern themselves with the affairs of Middle-Earth, and only intervene when Galadriel or Gandalf asks them directly (or, as with the Battle of the Black Gate or the Battle of Five Armies, they have decided that a conflict is truly large enough to warrent their attention).


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## Thorin (Jun 22, 2010)

Perhaps it was said already as I have not read all the posts in this thread.

The quest to destroy the ring was to be done in secrecy as to not let Sauron know that they were planning to destroy the ring, not use. A flock of eagles coming in from the sky would have set off Mordor and Sauron's radar. What if something happened and the eagles would have to turn back? Sauron would then know the desire to destroy the ring. There is no way that another attempt to get in there could be done. Too many 'what ifs' that could alert Sauron and bolster Mordor's defences ten fold.

Yes, it seems just as foolish to send a hobbit in with no real plan on how to get there...but at least it would be completely unexpected and the most secretive way to do it.


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## HLGStrider (Jun 22, 2010)

> Yes, it seems just as foolish to send a hobbit in with no real plan on how to get there.



A Hobbit, a Wizard, a Dwarf warrior, and an Elf warrior. . . Though the other Hobbits could be seen as excess baggage and Aragorn and Boromir both intended to swerve off towards Gondor at the half way point, Frodo was still, in the original plan, given a lot more protection than just himself and Sam.


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## Uminya (Jun 22, 2010)

I had always assumed that--like everyone else in Middle Earth that wasn't aligned with the Dark Lord--the Eagles were being attacked in their eyries. Thus, like the Dwarves of Erebor, Men of Dale and the Anduin Vale, and Elves of Lorien (excluding that fiasco in the movies); the eagles were far too busy defending their own homes to run about helping other peoples' battles. I'm certain the orcs of the Misty Mountains hadn't forgotten about them saving a bunch of dwarves, a wizard, and a hobbit some years back, and that it was far past due for comeuppance.


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## Thorin (Jun 25, 2010)

Ciryaher said:


> I had always assumed that--like everyone else in Middle Earth that wasn't aligned with the Dark Lord--the Eagles were being attacked in their eyries. Thus, like the Dwarves of Erebor, Men of Dale and the Anduin Vale, and Elves of Lorien (excluding that fiasco in the movies); the eagles were far too busy defending their own homes to run about helping other peoples' battles. I'm certain the orcs of the Misty Mountains hadn't forgotten about them saving a bunch of dwarves, a wizard, and a hobbit some years back, and that it was far past due for comeuppance.


 
Hey Cir! Good to see you friend! I guess the one question I have about eagle apathy is, why did they come to the rescue in Mordor then? I guess perhaps you could say that they saw it was now or never and that the victory of Sauron would be their end too, but I would reply that that probably would have always been their view if they believed in self-preservation and would have helped the quest earlier any way they could. 

I doubt (like the movie version of Treebeard..gack) that they would have simply been convinced on a whimsy that it was prudent for them to act even if they didn't want to before. Somehow I think the eagles would be wiser than that, especially when they helped in the past.


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## Uminya (Jun 25, 2010)

A good day to you, Thorin 

Since we're on the path of conjecture with this thing, I would also guess that the Eagles finally pitched in because they got a handle on the Misty Mountain situation. With Saruman broken, many of those orcs (who were at least somewhat influenced by him) may have fallen into disarray, giving the Eagles an advantage over them.

Or, as you suggested, it may have been a last-ditch "help now or never" effort to stop Sauron.

In any case, I wouldn't consider this a "hole" in the plot so much as something that simply isn't described that much. I've no doubt that the defense of Dale/Erebor were epic in nature, but they are given only a brief mention in the book itself. The details will remain a mystery!


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## Eledhwen (Jul 3, 2010)

Gandalf dared not take the Ring. Galadriel gained the wisdom to refuse it. Gwaihir may not have had any more strength to dispose of the ring in Mount Doom than the others who tried. In addition, there is a long list of precedents to look at to establish in what ways the Eagles were prepared to help:


Manwe sent Thorondor to help Fingon rescue Maedhros. 
Thorondor also saw Hurin and Huor wandering in the hills beneath the Crissaegrim after the Dagor Bragollach and sent two Eagles to rescue them. They bore them to Gondolin, and then when they were recovered, back to Dor-lomin. 
Then they turned up after Beren's hand, complete with Silmaril, had been swallowed by the wolf Carcharoth, and they carried Beren and Luthien to the borders of Doriath. 
Later, Hurin was released by Mogoth, steeped in half-truths and lies; and walked to the foot of Echoriath and could not go further. Thorondor told Turgon that he was there, but Turgon mistrusted Hurin because Morgoth had released him. His heart softened later and he sent Thorondor to look for Hurin, but he had left. 
This gave Morgoth a clue as to the whereabouts of Gondolin, but he couldn't find it because of the vigilance of the Eagles against all his sorties (maybe the vigilance was because they had weakened the secrecy by taking Hurin and Huor there, or maybe it was ongoing). 
Their last mention in The Silmarillion is as portents - warnings against the Numenoreans breaking the ban and sailing West towards Valinor.

Looking through these events and those in the Third Age, the Eagles would help in only limited ways: vigilance, to deliver vital messages and to rescue. They have never taken the vanguard in any action of men or elves. Though they were open to the bidding of great leaders, one gets the impression that this is more as a favour than as a subordinate.

I think that although the Eagles cared what happened to Middle-earth, they did not interfere until all other options had failed. This explains why Tolkien was so incensed at the 1950s treatment for a film of his books that had the Eagles flying here there and everywhere at the whim of the director/screenwriter.


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## Black Captain (Dec 6, 2011)

I think it's pretty obvious why they didn't. For one, Mordor's pretty far away. 2, it's extremely dark and foul there, 3 they could have been taken down by arrows from towers such as the one over Cirith Ungol, 4 the nazgul's fellbeasts could take the eagles on, and if not kill them, how could they hold on to the ring bearer without dropping him? 5, as pointed out above, Gwaihir easily could have succumbed to the power of the ring himself, and, last but not least, I'm pretty sure that if Sauron really bent his will to the matter he could overpower the eagles.

Also, if he had done that, it'd be a pretty damn boring book.


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## Black Captain (Dec 6, 2011)

Update.

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"Orcs stationed along the border of Mordor would shoot arrows at the eagles."

Click to expand...

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> As noted above, the Ered Lithui were considered to be a secure border, and it is not clear why Sauron would waste troops to patrol a border from which no land-based invasion is possible. So it is not clear that there would be orcs along the Ered Lithui to start with.
> Even if some orcs were stationed there, however, we know that eagles can fly very high:"Look!" cried Legolas, pointing up into the pale sky above them. "There is the eagle again! He is very high. He seems to be flying now away, from this land and back to the north. He is going with great speed. Look!"
> "No, not even my eyes can see him, my good Legolas," said Aragorn. "He must be far aloft indeed. I wonder what is his errand, if he is the same bird I have seen before[...]" (II, 30)​Aragorn is said to have very good eyesight (see, for example, the scene on Weathertop, where his keener vision leaves him no doubt about the identity of the black spots on the road). If the eagles can fly so high that Aragorn cannot see them, we can conclude that they are capable of flying out of bowshot from the ground.



It should be noted that while the eagles can fly above the arrows, they can only go so high with a hobbit on their back. The hobbit would eventually suffocate at such an altitude, and it would pose a rather large problem, having a dead ring bearer on back.

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"The Ring became heavier and more powerful as it came closer to Mt. Doom. If the eagles had carried Frodo in, he would not have had time to build up the strength of will to destroy the ring."

Click to expand...

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> Indeed, Frodo does change and grow over time as a result of the various trials he undergoes. There are numerous references which make this clear. Some of these injuries weakened him (such as the Nazgûl's knife injury to his shoulder), but I think I would agree that Frodo became better able to resist the Ring over time.
> On the other hand, it also appears that the effects of a ring of power upon its bearer are cumulative over time. The Nazgûl, for example, did not become better able to resist the domination of Sauron the longer they bore their rings; rather, as time went on, they faded into wraiths, coming completely under the domination of their rings. Consider also the discussion of the effects of the Ring on Sméagol and on Bilbo; it appears that that the effect was cumulative. I think that a good case can be made that the longer Frodo bears the Ring, the more the Ring eats into his mind and will.
> So there are two opposing factors here: Frodo becomes stronger over time; but the longer he bears the Ring, the more it works upon him. We don't have any precise knowledge of how the two stacked up against each other, and there is no reason to suppose that the wise had such knowledge, either. At best, this argument appears to be a draw. Therefore, I doubt that this consideration would have greatly affected the decision made at the Council of Elrond.
> For reference, here are some dates of major events:
> ...




In the two times the ring was brought to mount doom, the bearer failed to willfully destroy the ring. The argument that Gwaihir only had the ring an hour does not work with the first attempt at the destruction of the ring. Isildur, if my memory serves, had the ring for a very short time before he was rushed by Elrond to Orodruin, where even though he had had it less then an hour, he was succumbed by Suaron's will. It is said that the power of the ring works greater on those who are more powerful, hence the reason it passed to Frodo, and not Gandalf, Aragorn, Boromir, Elrond, etc. Gwahir we know is a king of Eagles, and even if a lesser eagle took it, they are still much more than a hobbit. So even if the ring bearer with the eagle was not corrupted, if the eagle was, then the eagle, best case scenario might turn around, worse case rip the ring bearer to shreds to obtain the ring. Upon the eagles entrance into Mordor, no matter from what entrance, Sauron would pick up on it pretty quick. So now your fighting your own will and the currently most powerful Mair's will in Middle Earth. Sauron probably would have picked up on what you're doing pretty quick based on the power you had and your direction. Gwahir would no doubt see the potential for the ring to help his folk with the goblin wars far to the North.


> Understand, Frodo. I would use this ring from a desire to do good... But through me, it would wield a power too great and terrible to imagine.


 And, the Journey would be doubtlessly slowed a little by the weight of the ring. The ring's power to corrupt begins immediately, as Tolkien reveals throughout the Lord of the Rings.

So, an Eagle making it all the way to the cracks of doom, that's hard enough. Actually dropping it or letting it be dropped? Almost impossible. And also, the Eagle would probably have the ring in it's beak on a chain, or clenched in it's talons, carrying the ring alone, for maximum maneuverability in case of attack, and more speed.


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