# Aragorn's fake



## HLGStrider (Feb 24, 2004)

Now, when Aragorn shows himself to Sauron in the Palantir, he is challenging Sauron to draw him away from Frodo, correct? 

Now, isn't it said somewhere that Sauron assumes Aragorn will try to weild the One against him? Or am I just making that up? In other words, Aragorn is going to fight Sauron fire with fire, which is the only way Sauron thinks they think they have a chance to win. The idea of destroying the ring never entered his mind.

But wouldn't it become quickly obvious that Aragorn does NOT have the ring? Not when he's marching towards the gate, but during the battle. Wouldn't the ring have manifested itself when he tried to weild it? Was Sauron waiting to see if he would weild it? How would he have weilded it? Or did Sauron not care if Aragorn had the ring or not and just wanted to squash him like a bug? Would Aragorn with the ring have been a threat?


----------



## pgt (Feb 24, 2004)

Excellent question!

Essentially yes, he's drawing Sauron away from looking for the ring as well as drawing him out and upsetting whatever carefully layed plans he has for war upon Gondor. 

Yes, I believe it would likely be obvious that he doesn't have the ring - but he reveals himself as the lost heir to Isildur of direct and essentially pure Westernese Numenorean descent and as such someone that can help seriously bolster Gondor's defenses - further he is someone who apparently has a certain degree of power beyond a typical or average mortal man of ME. (Remember Denethor is also someone who is of similar lineage and it's hinted that he has an ability to see into men's minds). 

My take is that by revealing himself and presenting himself as someone who can withstand Sauron in a direct struggle via the Palantir he deliberately is causing Sauron to lose focus on his plans and worry and hurry things - essentially it's a move ot unbalance Sauron. 

But I'd have to say, rushed or not, Saurons' forces at Minas Tirith are indeed impressive! 

Aragorn w/o the ring was already a serious threat - so w/ it more so I presume. As for Sauron's assumption - I'll let others speak to it but yes I think it's a valid assumption and seem to recall it was mentioned somewhere before though not w/ Aragorn specifically...?

Anyway good question - hopefully others will elaborate further...


----------



## Eledhwen (Feb 24, 2004)

Aragorn challenged the Dark Lord and showed him the sword reforged. Sauron never found Isildur's body (Saruman got there first), so he did not know that Ohtar had taken the sword to safety. He could only assume that if Aragorn had Isildur's sword, he also had the Ring.


----------



## Gamil Zirak (Feb 24, 2004)

Sauron knew Gollum had the ring and gave it to a Baggins. Sauron knew that the ring made it to Rivendell with halflings. Sauron knew that the ring went through Moria. He really knew nothing of it after that (save maybe that he fealt it's precense on the seeing seat).

Aragorn showed himself to Sauron as the heir to the thrown of Gondor. He proved it with the reforged sword. Sauron still knows nothing else about the ring. Aragorn forced Suaron to strike sooner than he had hoped. Gandalf's plan to march upon the black gate was to fool Sauron into thinking that Aragorn had the ring and that Argorn in his cockyness would challenge Sauron head on and extend his neck too far. Sauron would take the opportunity of the battle and chop the head off from the neck and retake the ring. If Sauron at the Black Gate had thought that Aragorn did not have the ring, he could not change his plan of attack. He couldn't withdraw or search for the ring some more. He had to finish the job.


----------



## Eriol (Feb 24, 2004)

When Aragorn looked at the Palantír, perhaps it was obvious that he didn't have the Ring. But Aragorn could get the Ring at Minas Tirith. I think this is what Sauron believed. 

I have always believed that, while Sauron could not detect any person wearing the Ring automatically, he could detect a person who claimed the Ring's full power. But was Sauron aware of that? I mean, when he didn't detect the claim of the Ring by one of the Captains of the West, was he able to be _sure_ that no one was claiming the Ring? Did the hypothesis of a "hidden claim" of the Ring cross Sauron's mind?


----------



## Grond (Feb 24, 2004)

Here's a long quote with which I seek to disagree with many of you who have already posted here. According to Gandalf himself, Sauron would have been unsure if Aragorn had the Ring. Read this and then let's discuss the matter furter. 


> _from The Return of the King, The Last Debate,_
> ...'Now Sauron knows all this, and he knows that this precious thing which he lost has been found again; but he does not yet know where it is, or so we hope. And therefore he is now in great doubt. *For if we have found this thing, there are some among us with strength enough to wield it. That too he knows. For do I not guess rightly, Aragorn, that you have shown yourself to him in the Stone of Orthanc?'* 'I did so ere I rode from the Hornburg,' answered Aragorn. 'I deemed that the time was ripe, and that the Stone had come to me for just such a purpose. It was then ten days since the Ring-bearer went east from Rauros, and the Eye of Sauron, I thought, should be drawn out from his own land. Too seldom has he been challenged since he returned to his Tower. Though if I had foreseen how swift would be his onset in answer, maybe I should not have dared to show myself. Bare time was given me to come to your aid.'* 'But how is this?' asked Eomer. 'All is vain, you say, if he has the Ring. Why should he think it not vain to assail us, if we have it?'* 'He is not yet sure,' said Gandalf, 'and he has not built up his power by waiting until his enemies are secure, as we have done. *Also we could not learn how to wield the full power all in a day. Indeed it can be used only by one master alone, not by many; and he will look for a time of strife, ere one of the great among us makes himself master and puts down the others. In that time the Ring might aid him, if he were sudden.* 'He is watching. He sees much and hears much. His Nazgyl are still abroad. They passed over this field ere the sunrise, though few of the weary and sleeping were aware of them. He studies the signs: the Sword that robbed him of his treasure re-made; the winds of fortune turning in our favour, and the defeat unlooked-for of his first assault the fall of his great Captain. 'His doubt will be growing, even as we speak here. His Eye is now straining towards us, blind almost to all else that is moving.


This seems clear to me. We may doubt Gandalf's intelligence on the issue but we can't deny the words that the author has put out of his mouth.


----------



## HLGStrider (Feb 24, 2004)

Good quote. I sort of remembered that debate in thinking up this thread. . .(Sort of meaning I didn't know if there was anything to back my idea for sure, but I could remember it being discussed that it was possible that Aragorn was thought to have the ring. . .).


My other suspicion that Sauron would think Aragorn had the ring would have to do with the Palantir. He saw the Hobbit he assumed had the ring in the palantir. Seemingly in no time later, there was Aragorn in the palantir. The hobbit and Aragorn were close to each other, therefore, and NO mighty captain could resist being that close to the ring.


----------



## Eledhwen (Feb 25, 2004)

Also, Sauron knew he had the heir of Elendil to deal with, because Aragorn could wrest the palantir to his own purpose.


----------



## HLGStrider (Feb 25, 2004)

I wonder what exactly Sauron feared from the Heir of Elendil. It is obvious that he feared him, but what did he expect him to do with limited resources and the ring seemingly in the Dark Lord's grasp. . .almost. . .he was very close to it a few times and probably thought it was a matter of time before he regained his WMD.

Perhaps it was just symbolic fear. It was the same sword, the same blood, the same palantir. 

And Aragorn was so much cuter than he was. . .


----------



## Grond (Feb 25, 2004)

HLGStrider said:


> I wonder what exactly Sauron feared from the Heir of Elendil. It is obvious that he feared him, but what did he expect him to do with limited resources and the ring seemingly in the Dark Lord's grasp. . .almost. . .he was very close to it a few times and probably thought it was a matter of time before he regained his WMD.
> 
> Perhaps it was just symbolic fear. It was the same sword, the same blood, the same palantir.
> 
> And Aragorn was so much cuter than he was. . .


Elgee, I point you to my age old thread The Power of the Ring. I'm still not certain that the Ring would have done a darn thing for Sauron.


----------



## Eledhwen (Feb 26, 2004)

Grond said:


> Elgee, I point you to my age old thread The Power of the Ring. I'm still not certain that the Ring would have done a darn thing for Sauron.


Links like that make people late for doctors appointments!
Having read much of Grond's thread on The Ring, the question I am now musing is "What did Sauron expect would happen if Aragorn wore The Ring?" Would Aragorn have Sauron wrapped round his little finger? (sorry! that just came into my head.)

I'll think about it while I'm waiting for my blood test. Bye for now!


----------



## Saucy (Feb 29, 2004)

how excactly is the ring used anyways, i mean just making u invisible and corrupted, doesnt nesscarily mean u have extra power 

and if sauron wold of had more time to think about it he most likely would of realised aragorn did not have the ring, but it all happened so quickly....


----------



## jallan (Feb 29, 2004)

Note that Sauron would see not only Aragorn with the sword reforged but Gandalf back from the dead. That would not be a good sign. All kinds of magic can be going on that he is not aware of. 

Perhaps Gandalf has the Ring. Gandalf might well, perhaps, be able to use it to shield the fact that it was being used from Sauron’s perception. Does Sauron not sense anything because there is nothing to sense or because it is being successfully hidden from him?

All most disturbing to poor Sauron.


----------



## Saucy (Feb 29, 2004)

jallan said:


> Note that Sauron would see not only Aragorn with the sword reforged but Gandalf back from the dead. That would not be a good sign. All kinds of magic can be going on that he is not aware of.
> 
> Perhaps Gandalf has the Ring. Gandalf might well, perhaps, be able to use it to shield the fact that it was being used from Sauron’s perception. Does Sauron not sense anything because there is nothing to sense or because it is being successfully hidden from him?
> 
> All most disturbing to poor Sauron.




^ and thats when he realised he didnt stand a chance mwhahahaha


----------



## Dáin Ironfoot I (Feb 29, 2004)

I think his main purpose in attacking Aragorn was a preemptive one and was not involved with the Ring. Look what happened to Sauron last time a great Western Lord assailed him, even with the Ring and the forteress of Barad-dur in his grasp? Aragorn could have led an equally effective attack on the Black Land if he had ascended to the throne. He is an Elf-friend, and could have summoned a last-last alliance again if he was allowed the time to do so. Even with the Ring, I think Sauron would not stand to the might of Gondor, Rohan, Dale, Lorien, Rivendell, Eriador, and possibly Erebor. Remember how influential Aragorn was to all the free peoples of Middle-Earth (along with Gandalf and the Hobbits) so I am sure even the Dwarves would have aided the King of Gondor against Sauron. Perhaps Sauron knew about the wraiths of Dunharrow too. They alone would have been a hard foe to combat, even with all the soldiers at his disposal.

In the end, Aragorn and Gondor was assailed as a protective measure for Sauron, in order to prevent a great Alliance akin to those of the past. Fortunately, Sauron's strike went wide, and it came back to bite him in his non-existent butt!


----------



## Mrs. Maggott (Mar 4, 2004)

Forgive me if I repeat what has already been said since I have only been able to make a quick perusal of the thread. Aragorn needed to look in the palantir to get information about what the enemy was doing. That was his reason for using it. However, he had already learned from Pippin whom he would encounter (remember, Gandalf warns him not to, at the end, do something rash that might ruin all) if he chose to use the stone. And so, when he confronts Sauron, he shows him not a weary Ranger, but the heir of Elendil and the sword reforged in order to cause the Dark Lord consternation and distress rather than allow him the luxury of always "acting" rather than _"reacting"_. As a final proof of his identity, he is strong enough to wrest the stone from Sauron's sway and see what he needs to see.

There are two other things to consider here: 

1. Had Pippin not used the stone, Aragorn might have been taken unawares when he tried to use it. Perhaps he might have guessed as it was the Orthanc stone and knowing Saruman's connection to Sauron that he would encounter the Sauron, but Pippin's encounter at least gave him sufficient warning to prepare himself for the struggle.

2. Sauron after this encounter, rushed his plans which caused them to go astray. He was confounded to learn that an heir to his hated enemy lived and even more confounded when he realized that it was through Isildur's line. For Sauron would always make the connection between Isildur and the Ring. The rise of his descendent at this critical time would lead him to believe that somehow Aragorn had regained the Ring. After all, he could make some legitimate claim to it among the free folk of the West (unwise though that might be) since Isildur was the one who took the Ring from him. The man, the sword, the unlooked for victory of Rohan - all would lead him to credibly believe that Aragorn possessed (and was using) the Ring.

I do not believe that Aragorn's original intention was to mislead Sauron. I think that he did so certainly, but his first and most important intention was to gather information that he could acquire in no other way. As with many in Tolkien's story, Aragorn did not believe in "chance". He believed rather, that things "happened" because a Greater Cause made them happen and that one was responsible to act for the general good when such circumstances presented themselves. In this instance, he had been provided with a great gift that he could not foreswear no matter how dangerous it might be to attempt to use it. The results bear out the efficacy of his belief. Without the stone, there would have been no Paths of the Dead and no victory before the gate of Minas Tirith. With the fall of that City, Sauron would have had the leisure to search for the Ring and he surely would have found it. End of story.


----------



## HLGStrider (Aug 17, 2004)

I'm bumping this thread. . .just to see if anyone has anything to add to Mrs. M's good post.


----------

