# Pippin and the Palantir



## BluestEye (Aug 7, 2002)

I was re-reading "The Palantir" chapter of TTT. It is told that Pippin stole it from sleeping Gandalf. Now it occurred to me: "How can this happen, that a small Hobbit is able to steal a magic object as the Palantir from a mighty Wizard and Istari as Gandalf?
Is it possible that Gandalf was actualy sound asleep for he was so "weary" as he said afterwards?
I think it can't be. I think Gandalf "let" this thing happen because he wanted to use the Palantir himself, but he was afraid 'cause he didn't know how might be watching from the other side. So he "Charmed" Pippin to use it in his place, a small and harmless Hobbit. He risked the secret of all the Company's plan, but this way the Enemy won't see Gandalf and won't be able to question such a knowledgable Wizard.

Gandalf even mentions this to Aragorn in a conversation that took place imediately after the incident:




> 'But at this time we have been strangely fortunate. Maybe, I have been saved by this hobbit from a grave blunder. I had considered whether or not to probe this Stone myself to find its uses. Had I done so, I should have been revealed to him myself. I am not ready for such a trial, if indeed I shall ever be so: But even if I found the power to withdraw myself, it would be disastrous for him to see me, yet – until the hour comes when secrecy will avail no longer.'



"The Palantir", The Two Towers, J.R.R Tolkien

So if this thing is true, Gandalf actualy 'used' Pippin's ignorance for his own profit. This may put Gandalf in another light.
What is your oppinion?

Bluest Eye


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## Confusticated (Aug 7, 2002)

It is my opinion that your Theory is dead wrong. 



> So he "Charmed" Pippin to use it in his place, a small and harmless Hobbit. He risked the secret of all the Company's plan, but this way the Enemy won't see Gandalf and won't be able to question such a knowledgable Wizard.




How can you say that Pippin is harmless one second, but incidtae the next second that you think he has the ability to give the secret away? Pippin may be harmless in a way. But no one is completely harmless. This the above situation Pippin was potentially the most harmful person in middle-earth at that moment.

Honesly...what could Sauron have learned from Gandalf that he could have put to more evil use than what he could have learned from Pippin. From each he might have learned of Frodo's plan to destroy it...and that Frodo and Sam alone were approaching Mordor. Sure he could have learned more from gandalf than from Pippin...but once he knows that.....how much does anything else matter? It is true that Sauron didn't learn anything of the Ring from Pippin, but he could have. I think Gandalf was Extreemly relieved to learn that Pippin said nothing to Sauron. This indicated that Gandalf at first feared that Pippin told all. Afterall why shouldn't Gandalf think this? Because of those things I do not think that Gandalf would just fool Pippin into/simply let him look into the Palantir. If Gandalf wanted to use someone is such a way, why not a random rider of Rohan? I do not think Gandalf would do even that, but it sure beats having Pippin do this. Gandalf had No way of knowing that in Sauron's haste to get his hands on the hobbit, that he would fail to question Pippin on the spot.

You say that Gandalf risked all of this because of his own temptation?...I say no way.


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## Walter (Aug 7, 2002)

> At last he could stand it no longer. He got up and looked round. It was chilly, and he wrapped his cloak about him. The moon was shining cold and white, down into the dell, and the shadows of the bushes were black. All about lay sleeping shapes. The two guards were not in view: they were up on the hill, perhaps, or hidden in the bracken. Driven by some impulse that he did not understand, Pippin walked softly to where Gandalf lay. He looked down at him. The wizard seemed asleep, but with lids not fully closed: there was a glitter of eyes under his long lashes. Pippin stepped back hastily. But Gandalf made no sign; and drawn forward once more, half against his will, the hobbit crept up again from behind the wizard's head. He was rolled in a blanket, with his cloak spread over the top; and close beside him, between his right side and his bent arm, there was a hummock, something round wrapped in a dark cloth; his hand seemed only just to have slipped off it to the ground.



I wonder why you didn't quote the first passage you are referring to, but quote only the second one. Maybe because it would undermine your theory at least to some degree at an early point? 

Well my theory is, that Gandalf's spirit was actually far away again, as - IMO - happened often when the others were asleep



> 'So this is the thief!' said Gandalf. Hastily he cast his cloak over the globe where it lay. 'But you, Pippin! This is a grievous turn to things!' He knelt by Pippin's body: the hobbit was lying on his back rigid, with unseeing eyes staring up at the sky. 'The devilry! What mischief has he done-to himself, and to all of us?' The wizard's face was drawn and haggard.





> ...The evil fit may come on him again. For alas! he has handled it and looked in it, as should never have happened. He ought never to have touched it in Isengard, and there I should have been quicker. But my mind was bent on Saruman, and I did not at once guess the nature of the Stone. Then I was weary, and as I lay pondering it, sleep overcame me. Now I know!'



So, no, after re-reading the parts, it doesn't sound like a setup to me...


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## BluestEye (Aug 7, 2002)

*Ah! good-old Walter, I missed you so much*

"Undermine" my theory? Ah! The quote you've just put here only agrees with my "Theory"  

Here it is again (taken from YOUR quote):

"...Driven by some impulse that he did not understand, Pippin walked softly to where Gandalf lay..."

"...But Gandalf made no sign; and drawn forward once more, half against his will, the hobbit crept up again from behind the wizard's head..."

Please explain to me (and all others) what you wanted to say in your last messege, about "undermining" my "theory at least to some degree at an early point", because I don't think many of us understood it. What was your point?

Maybe you haven't understand my Thread right. I wrote about this thing already, about Pippin being "led" to steal the Palantir, and about him getting it from the sleeping Gandalf. Why should I repeat it again in a quote? His acts were told by Tolkien (or Bilbo/Frodo if you would like) so I haven't the need to quote him.
But Gandalf's words were more relevent for a quote. And that's why I prefered quoting only Gandalf and not Pippin's stealth-story; not because I thought this would "undermine" my theory.

I think it is a good question, and can be discussed here in this nice Forum. From ALL your replies to my messeges at many places in the Forum I have a feeling you have something against me, what is it?

Bluest Eye


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## Walter (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: Ah! good-old Walter, I missed you so much*



> _Originally posted by BluestEye _
> From ALL your replies to my messeges at many places in the Forum I have a feeling you have something against me, what is it?


BluestEye,

I have nothing against you personally in any way, and I am most sorry if I came across that way, in this case I offer you my sincerest apology.

I don't think, I have replied to many of your posts, at least I don't recall to have. The one issue I - faintly - recall was the thread with your theory about Tom Bombadil being of jewish origin and his name meaning something like oldest son of a pineapple tree or whatever. My answer in that thread was - IIRC, that I have not found any indication in Tolkiens work to back up your theory, but rather a few that could be held against it. 

In this thread your hypothesis that "Gandalf purposely let Pippin steal the palantir" again seems rather far-fetched to me, hence I replied why I do not agree with your theory...


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## BluestEye (Aug 7, 2002)

*Apology accepted*

Maybe you just have a critical sense in your messeges  Many people have that without meaning to sound critical or intimidating.

Anyway, thanks for your apology. I accept and respect that and your opinions. You seem only to reject my so called "Theories"  but you don't put anything to prove your ideas. Why don'y you share them with me?

Try to re-read your last messege, especialy the part about my suggestion about the origin of the name Iarwain Ben-Adar (not "Tom Bombadil" as you've written). Don't you think the words you described that Thread seem a little "snobish"? I'm not trying to offend you. I only try to show you why your posts seem a little intimidating.

In your last messege you wrote:

"...your theory about Tom Bombadil being of jewish origin and his name meaning something like oldest son of a pineapple tree or whatever..."

Please. It seems you underestimated that thread and misunderstood it completely. I never said Tom Bombadil was a Jew!!!  I only said that Iarwain Ben-Adar is a name very similar to Jewish names and maybe the origin of that name was Jewish. And why not? Tolkien used many old languages as origins for his Characters' names.

Please try to respect other threads in this Forum. This way more people will take your posts seriously and reply to you respectfuly.

Of course this is only a suggestion, taken from my point of view.
You may do whatever you want with it.

Bluest Eye


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## Walter (Aug 7, 2002)

BluestEye,

if you re-read that Bombadil thread, which I just did, you might find that I have tried to come up with serious answers for quite a while, but you just did not seem to want to hear anything that would not agree with your theory.

I somehow fear that the same might happen here as well, and this is why I don't want to go any further on this topic. You came up with your theory and said why you believe it is so, I told you why I don't think it is so and gave you the passages of text that lead me to my opinion. I think we should leave it at that.

If you think that snobbish and intimidating, I am sorry, but I won't be able to change your opinion...


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## Lantarion (Aug 7, 2002)

Tum te tum, back to the subject peeps. 

I hadn't seen it like that before, that gandalf had 'let' this event occur. But I disagree that Gandalf wanted to use it. It almost makes him sound greedy! 
I think he might have wanted to teahc Pippin a lesson, and help him 'grow'. He knew that the Palantír could not actually harm him, and I suspect that he might have known that he couldn't speak rationally or give away any vital information to a powerful spirit like Sauron..

But I dunno; I think I'll stick to the fact that Pippin had quick fingers.


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## pohuist (Aug 7, 2002)

Lantarion, the Plantir couldn't probably harm Pippin, but definitely Pippin could reveal everything to Sauron, I don't think Gandalf wanted to teach Pip a lesson, he had better things to do.

BE: I don't think you are correct, why, do you think Gandalf immediately took Pip to Minas Tirith, away, from Palantir. As far as the quotes, "against his will, etc" -- have it ever hapenned to you that you are tempted greatly by something and while you intelligence screams "NO, you are an idiot", you can't overcome this temptation and do it anyway (sometimes greatly regretting it later). Certainly hapenned to me... Gandalf sure was worn out, he was just out of the battle where he gathered 5,000 foot soldiers and 10,000 Huorns to save Theoden, Aragorn and Co. from sure death in the battle. After that he was struggling with Saruman (mind struggling). Tolkien says that Istari were subjected to human weaknesses (like hunger, thirst and weariness). Gandalf is not omnipotent, he has weaknesses, but sometimes by sheer fortune or otherwise they only increase his strength.


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## Grond (Aug 7, 2002)

Gandalf is "The White" when this occurs. I do not think that Gandalf's nature would allow him to "use" a young hobbit for such a deed. I also think he would have been very fearful of what Pippin would reveal.


> _from The Two Towers, The Palantir,_
> *If he had questioned you, then and there, almost certainly you would have told all that you know, to the ruin of us all. But he was too eager.* He did not want information only: he wanted you, quickly, so that he could deal with you in the Dark Tower, slowly. Don't shudder! If you will meddle in the affairs of Wizards, you must be prepared to think of such things. But come! I forgive you. Be comforted! Things have not turned out as evilly as they might.'


This just doesn't sound like a Wizard with a plot to me.


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## Ravenna (Aug 7, 2002)

When you take into account Pippins, curiosity and apparent genius for doing the wrong thing, it doesn't surprise me that he took the palantir.
After all, he was the one who threw the stone into the well in Moria, and look where that got him. I think it was purely a combination of youth, insatiable curiosity, and resentment that Gandalf had simply taken the stone from him with no explanation, which in turn fired the curiosity again.


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## BluestEye (Aug 8, 2002)

Walter, I agree with you, let's leave the subject and go back to the Thread's topic. I DO want to hear your opinions. English is not the first language I learnt so maybe we just don't understand each other. And that's OK also ƒº
So let us be friends and not fight, eh?

I believe Gandalf's acts came from a good source, I don't doubt it. But maybe this act was one of his "Humane" weaknesses. He wanted to use the Palantir but he was afraid that if he'd do that, he might be revealed to a greater evil than Saruman, maybe Sauron himself. It might be possible that he used Pippin to do that instead of him. Maybe he thought this way the damage of revealing will be less¡K I don't know. Just maybe ƒº

Bluest Eye


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## Confusticated (Aug 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by BluestEye _
> *Walter, I agree with you, let's leave the subject and go back to the Thread's topic. I DO want to hear your opinions. English is not the first language I learnt so maybe we just don't understand each other. And that's OK also ƒº
> So let us be friends and not fight, eh?
> 
> ...



I'm interested in hearing exactly how Gandalf being relieved to Sauron would cause worse things that Pippin telling all that he knows?

Also, as i said above: IF this was Gandalf's plan...why not use a rider of Rohan?


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## BluestEye (Aug 8, 2002)

> IF this was Gandalf's plan...why not use a rider of Rohan?



Because a Rohir is a Man, and Men are weak. Hobbits are shown along the Lord Of The Rings as people with a very strong Will, maybe even stronger than Dwarves. Gandalf might have thought about this and it might be the reason for him 'choosing' Pippin for his experiment.



> how Gandalf being relieved to Sauron would cause worse things that Pippin telling all that he knows?



If Sauron would question Pippin, it would be 'just a Hobbit interogation'. He might learn from this a lot of things, sure. But still, he might question the truth of all the things Pippin would reveal to Sauron. Maybe this Hobbit is tricking him? Maybe he doesn't know the truth? Maybe he knows only parts of the truth?
Remember that Sauron thought Pippin was a prisoner in Isengard, used by Saruman. This could confuse Sauron even if he questioned Pippin.
But if Gandalf himself would have channeled with the Palantir - then Sauron could have recognized him. He would know that a Maia is involved, that a great power is leading this company. That Isengard was ruined because of this Maia's counsels, that he was commanding Ents, that now HE is the head of the "White Council" and that he desmissed Saruman - the only Wizard Sauron could use against Middle-Earth...

These things might not be revealed so easily if Pippin was questioned by Sauron, but if Gandalf was on the question - it could have been worse.

Bluest Eye


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## Gamil Zirak (Aug 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by BluestEye _
> * Because a Rohir is a Man, and Men are weak. Hobbits are shown along the Lord Of The Rings as people with a very strong Will, maybe even stronger than Dwarves. Gandalf might have thought about this and it might be the reason for him 'choosing' Pippin for his experiment.*


What? Gandalf had to almost take the ring from Bilbo. Frodo couldn't through the ring in. Besides, how can Pippin have such a strong will. He was the one to drop a stone in Moria and was always causing some mischief. If Gandalf were to pick a hobbit it would have been Sam. Anyway, Aragorn looked into the Palantir and didn't reveal what Frodo & Sam were doing.


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## Confusticated (Aug 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by BluestEye _
> *
> 
> Because a Rohir is a Man, and Men are weak. Hobbits are shown along the Lord Of The Rings as people with a very strong Will, maybe even stronger than Dwarves. Gandalf might have thought about this and it might be the reason for him 'choosing' Pippin for his experiment.
> ...



You say men are weaker than Hobbits? Fine, lets go with that. Now: Would it make more sense to send a weak one with relatively small information into intarrogation, or more sense to send a stronger one with a great deal of information into it?
Chances are that neither of them is strong enough to resist Sauron, so at this point does it really matter which one of them is a little stronger than the other?
You say that Gandalf should not have been shown to Sauron...yet Pippin or a Rohan man could very well have told Sauron of Gandalf. Of the Rohan man i think it more likely. Sauron seeing a man in the stone might not be so quick to assume that he is a prisoner of Saruman.


PS: Pippin may not know as much of the truth as gandalf knows...But i'd say knoweledge of the ring's bearer, his companion, their plan, and general direction,.....would be worth thousands of tiny other tifbits such as ents overrunning Isengard.

let's see...I can either know that Saruman was a traitor and then he just got his but-kicked...or that..ut-oh!...Couple hobbbits are headed into my realm with intentions of destroying the ring! The one thing that I want more than anything, the last thing that I need to take over middle-earth.


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## indexerkevin (Aug 8, 2002)

I thank if any power is at work it is Sauron, drawing Pippin to use the stone. He probably doesn't know it is Sauron he is drawing, perhaps just that Saruman is late for his daily checking in with Sauron. I think it was Sauron's power that worked on both Saruman and Denethor to look in their stones. Up until then, no stewards had dared attempt it, but both Saruman and Denethor were prideful enough to be drawn in.


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## pohuist (Aug 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by indexerkevin _
> *I thank if any power is at work it is Sauron, drawing Pippin to use the stone. He probably doesn't know it is Sauron he is drawing, perhaps just that Saruman is late for his daily checking in with Sauron. I think it was Sauron's power that worked on both Saruman and Denethor to look in their stones. Up until then, no stewards had dared attempt it, but both Saruman and Denethor were prideful enough to be drawn in. *



That seems highly doubtful to me, especially Denethor's part. Do you have any evidence to back it up?


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## BelDain (Aug 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Confusticated _
> *It is my opinion that your Theory is dead wrong.
> How can you say that Pippin is harmless one second, but incidtae the next second that you think he has the ability to give the secret away *



Can i ask what you meant by incidtae?


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## Confusticated (Aug 8, 2002)

yes you may!...hehehe
I ment to type "Indicate"


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