# Is Feanor villain or anti-hero?



## Baron (Sep 13, 2022)

Just wondering how people perceive Feanor?
Do you feel he is a villain or anti-hero?

Personally I see him as a villain, he has done some pretty bad stuff, maybe not on the scale of Morgoth, but there are a few similarities.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Sep 13, 2022)

Baron said:


> Just wondering how people perceive Feanor?
> Do you feel he is a villain or anti-hero?
> 
> Personally I see him as a villain, he has done some pretty bad stuff, maybe not on the scale of Morgoth, but there are a few similarities.


To say the least, he is a very paradoxical and divided character. He was essentially troubled from the very beginning when he lost Míriel Serinde. His fate was an unfortunate one indeed. Despite what others may think, I hold respect for Féanáro.


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 13, 2022)

Villain. He's opposed to all things good. He curses the Powers. He kills his friends and his own son. He abandons his own kin to death. He's jealously possessive of his father. Does he do ANYTHING good? Being a skilled craftsman doesn't make one a good person. That he's opposed to another villain doesn't make him an anti-hero.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Sep 13, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> Villain. He's opposed to all things good. He curses the Powers. He kills his friends and his own son. He abandons his own kin to death. He's jealously possessive of his father. Does he do ANYTHING good? Being a skilled craftsman doesn't make one a good person. That he's opposed to another villain doesn't make him an anti-hero.


My, my...it seems we have very differing opinions...


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 13, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> My, my...it seems we have very differing opinions...


lol I can't stand him. Galadriel and I very much agree on that. His life started troubled but none of that excuses his murderous nature. He wantonly kills any who get in his way and even those who don't. He's just as evil as Morgoth.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Sep 13, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> lol I can't stand him. Galadriel and I very much agree on that. His life started troubled but none of that excuses his murderous nature. He wantonly kills any who get in his way and even those who don't.


Right - so you're from the House of Finarfin? Nice.

Féanoriel seems a better name for me then.


ZehnWaters said:


> He's just as evil as Morgoth.


*gasp*

Mind me, but...

_How couldst thou condemn him upon the side of Moringotto? Thou hast broken my heart and féa upon the Moment that I heard thy words._


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## Ealdwyn (Sep 13, 2022)

You could say that he was initially good but was then corrupted by the lies of Morgoth .... except that his fall began long before Morgoth sought to turn the Noldor against each other - there's that passage about Feanor loving the Silmarils with a "greedy love" and begrudging the sight of them to all but his father/brothers. So he was already falling into darkness long before Morgoth started whispering.


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 13, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> You could say that he was initially good but was then corrupted by the lies of Morgoth .... except that his fall began long before Morgoth sought to turn the Noldor against each other - there's that passage about Feanor loving the Silmarils with a "greedy love" and begrudging the sight of them to all but his father/brothers. So he was already falling into darkness long before Morgoth started whispering.


The Silmarillion asked who could have loved their father more, but Fëanor didn't love his father, he was jealously possessive of him just as he was the Silmarils. The seeds of his later wickedness already existed. He was fertile soil for Morgoth.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Sep 13, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> He was fertile soil for Morgoth.


_Do I now sense my own respect for Féanáro diminishing, simply due to thy words? _


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 13, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> _Do I now sense my own respect for Féanáro diminishing, simply due to thy words? _


Hopefully.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Sep 13, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> Hopefully.


Ah - is it that you want another on your side? Sadly, I hold a flame of my own that is not so swiftly diminished.

_Try me._


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## Baron (Sep 13, 2022)

I see he is a very divisive character 😅 
Gotta love him for that!


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Sep 13, 2022)

Baron said:


> I see he is a very divisive character 😅
> Gotta love him for that!


Finally - one who stands on my side!

_Hannon-le!_


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## Erestor Arcamen (Sep 13, 2022)

idk, the kinslaying of the Teleri was always something that ground my gears and Feanor was the one who started it, so not sure how that can be defended.






image source


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## Ent (Sep 13, 2022)

His downfall was the same as Melkor's. Pride and lust. 
And there was no repentance in him, just as there was none in Melkor. 
The ONE thing they had in common, which also fostered their hatred one of another, was their mutual lust for the Silmarils. Yes?
What difference between that and Ungoliant's lust opposed to Melkor's lust?

And his downfall was not just his own, but that of all the Elven people he ruled.
(Several real-life leaders come to mind, but I refrain lest it become a political statement.)
One cannot justify his actions on any level. 

Else there is no end to the depths of depravity we are willing to accept, and 'excuse', based on history.

Yet we all have CHOICE.

And just as Melkor chose *unrepentant* rebellion, so did Feanor - and just as Melkor took thousands with him, so did Feanor. 

What difference does a thorn bush have from another thorn bush, save perhaps its size and number of thorns? 
Yet it is a thorn bush nonetheless.


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## Ent (Sep 13, 2022)

p.s. - other than the above, i have no opinion on the matter whatsoever. 😁


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## Elassar (Sep 13, 2022)

Villain: forsaking the Valar, his own people (Fingolfin) and the slaying of the teleri at alqualönde and keeping the silmarils from yavanna kementari


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## Gloranthan (Dec 12, 2022)

I see him as a hero in the Greek sense - someone with intense _arete_ and _virtu _(again in the Roman sense, manliness), regardless of whether he used it in what we would consider a far sighted and appropriate manner. I am never quite sure what anti-hero means (I've heard it used to describe Woody Allen characters), but I don't see him as a villain. He's not really malicious, but he is pretty ruthless. Feanor should never have been allowed to get himself into the state he ended up in. Not to absolve him of guilt for his actions, which could be downright insane, but I think other people in his life probably let it get further than they should have. People indulged him too much.

On the other hand, I like my Nietzsche and Stirner, so I can respect an elf who tells the gods to kick rocks and goes off on a crazy war against Satan. That kind of passion can be its own justification, and he certainly made Morgoth's life harder. And if the other elves like him enough to follow, well, that's on them. He didn't force anyone to take that crazy oath.


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## Olorgando (Dec 12, 2022)

Gloranthan said:


> ... but I think other people in his life probably let it get further than they should have. ...


He basically listened to nobody, so there was no question of others letting him or not. Malevolent narcissist to psychopath on a level with Morgoth, beyond Sauron. Utter villain.


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## Gloranthan (Dec 12, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> He basically listened to nobody, so there was no question of others letting him or not. Malevolent narcissist to psychopath on a level with Morgoth, beyond Sauron. Utter villain.


They could have, for one, rejected the oath. And just refused to help him take the boats. Let him go by himself.


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## Ent (Dec 13, 2022)

Gloranthan said:


> They could have, for one, rejected the oath. And just refused to help him take the boats. Let him go by himself.


In the end it is true. Each of us is responsible for our own choices. not for those of others.
Nor is there any issue of either 'allowing' or 'not allowing' another to do this or that.
That person is responsible for that person's own choices as well.
"With great power comes great responsibility". A comment made in a Spider Man movie, though I hate to mention it....

But the truth is if we know what impact we have on others... i.e. how 'charismatic' we may be, as Feanor certainly was... then we are responsible for wielding that 'impact power' correctly as well.

What "they" did or did not do does not affect or impact Feanor, his choices, his responsibilities, etc. in the least.

Feanor is as Feanor does. Not as he is 'allowed' to do by others. We cannot escape our culpabilitites by fleeing under the skirts of nearby scapegoats.

He is a self-absorbed, rash character with little thought outside what he wants. A petulant baby comes to mind. Indulged yes. But still solely responsible, as are we all.

(Ent could change his mind after further study, but at present this is where his opinion lies.)


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## Findekano_Astaldo (Dec 13, 2022)

I don't exactly see him as a villain. I feel like he was corrupted by his own greed and sense of power and with his oath-I think it drove him to a certain level of madness to achieve his almost unattainable goal that led him to commit the kin slaying, creating the Oath, and forsaking the Valar. Maybe he didn't quite know what he was getting into...maybe he did but his desire was so great that he would go to any end to fulfill it. (I mean with the oath you couldn't quite forsake it).


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## Ent (Dec 13, 2022)

Findekano_Astaldo said:


> don't exactly see him as a villain.


This thread is seeing a bit of attention. Let's see if we can add a bit more.

"Definitions" are always critical to questions such as the thread's. So let's take a look.

First: What is the definition of an anti-hero.
*anti-hero* (noun) - a central character in a story, movie, or drama who lacks conventional heroic attributes: a protagonist or notable figure who is conspicuously lacking in heroic qualities.

Next: What is the definition of a 'villain'.
*villain* (noun) 1*: *a character in a story or play who opposes the hero. 2*: *a deliberate scoundrel or criminal 3*: *one blamed for a particular evil or difficulty 4: a character whose evil actions or motives are important to the plot.

Reader: Let your evaluation proceed.

With regard to *anti-hero*: Particularly, we need to define "conventional" heroic attributes... what in the world does THAT mean and look like? Then, what precisely are 'heroic qualities'??

Relating to *villain:* we need to dissect each of the 4 categories noted, and determine whether Feanor fits into any one of them, comfortably or otherwise.


Adjunct question: Is it just possible Feanor is both Villain and Anti-hero given the above?

(Ent rushes to a deeper part of the forest to hide.)


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## Findekano_Astaldo (Dec 13, 2022)

Ent said:


> This thread is seeing a bit of attention. Let's see if we can add a bit more.
> 
> "Definitions" are always critical to questions such as the thread's. So let's take a look.
> 
> ...


Ah! I think this is quite useful, and the questions are very interesting!


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## Ent (Dec 13, 2022)

Ent emerges for a small addition:
Etymology of a word is always fascinating as well.
Particularly, in view with this post is the etymology of "villain". We can see it has changed over time.

Villain:
c. 1300 (late 12c. as a surname), "base or low-born rustic," from Anglo-French and Old French vilain "peasant, farmer, commoner, churl, yokel" (12c.), from Medieval Latin villanus "farmhand," from Latin villa "country house, farm" (from PIE root *weik- (1) "clan").
- Meaning "character in a novel, play, etc. whose evil motives or actions help drive the plot" *is from 1822*.

So you can see at around 1822, the general meaning of 'villain' was perhaps a bit stiffer and more limited than it has come to mean over the last 200 years. And yet... it still leaves plenty of room for a Feanor to fit within it perhaps??

(rushing back to the forest).


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## Eljorahir (Dec 13, 2022)

Ent said:


> First: What is the definition of an anti-hero.
> *anti-hero* (noun) - a central character in a story, movie, or drama who lacks conventional heroic attributes: a protagonist or notable figure who is conspicuously lacking in heroic qualities.


Interesting topic regarding the definition of anti-hero and how it might apply to Feanor.

Wikipedia has a more thorough explanation of the term. After reading the article, I think Feanor has many of the qualities associated with an antihero.

Here's one excerpt from Wikipedia:
Typically, an antihero is the focal point of conflict in a story, whether that be as the protagonist, or as the antagonistic force. This is due to the antihero being particularly engaged in the conflict, typically on their own will, rather than a specific call for the greater good. As such, the antihero focuses on their objective first, and everything else is secondary.


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## Maedhros_Nelyafinwë (Dec 14, 2022)

I'm not sure if I would classify Fëanor as a villain or anti-hero (though I think @Ent 's provided definitions of the terms are helpful). I guess I would be inclined to thinking he has characteristics of both. He certainly commits acts of evil which drive the plot, and he is a central character to the story.

But, I'm in agreement with @Vairë in terms of liking Fëanor anyway despite his evil deeds. As I've been reading The Silmarillion, he was the first character that really grabbed my attention. He has a clear motive and I can understand his wanting to take action against Morgoth, and feeling that not enough action is being taken, and resorting to extreme and evil acts.

I see discourse these days which seems to condemn people who like fictional villains or characters who do evil things, as if when you like them, it means you condone evil acts in real life. But I don't see it that way. Without villains, there's (usually) no plot or conflict in a story, and a villain can be the most fascinating and nuanced character of the story. If I think a character like Fëanor is interesting, it doesn't mean I think murder is okay or that I support him doing that.

Perhaps what I find most interesting about him is that he's opposed to both Morgoth _and _the Valar. He's anti-authority and wants to be his own authority. Up until him, every character we've seen is either with or against Morgoth.

Also, I probably found it funnier than I should have when he basically kicked Morgoth out of his house and Morgoth skulked off in shame!


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Dec 14, 2022)

Maedhros_Nelyafinwë said:


> But, I'm in agreement with @Vairë in terms of liking Fëanor anyway despite his evil deeds. As I've been reading The Silmarillion, he was the first character that really grabbed my attention.


Ah, thanks.

Now, here's a point that most could possibly overlook:

_Without Fëanáro Curufinwë, where would our beloved Silmarillion be? Certainly not the same, or perhaps not even existing..._


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## ZehnWaters (Dec 15, 2022)

Ent said:


> What difference does a thorn bush have from another thorn bush, save perhaps its size and number of thorns?
> Yet it is a thorn bush nonetheless.


Potentially their evolutionary history but they both ended in the same place, no?


Olorgando said:


> He basically listened to nobody, so there was no question of others letting him or not. Malevolent narcissist to psychopath on a level with Morgoth, beyond Sauron. Utter villain.


He listened to his wife some of the time. That was about it.


Gloranthan said:


> He's not really malicious, but he is pretty ruthless.


Killing your own friends for not giving you their treasures seems pretty malicious.


Gloranthan said:


> People indulged him too much.


Only Finwë indulged him.



Maedhros_Nelyafinwë said:


> But I don't see it that way. Without villains, there's (usually) no plot or conflict in a story, and a villain can be the most fascinating and nuanced character of the story.


I suppose this is the difference. I don't find him nuanced at all. He just comes across as selfish, spoiled, and bratty. I don't find that a "fun" villain.



Ent said:


> But the truth is if we know what impact we have on others... i.e. how 'charismatic' we may be, as Feanor certainly was... then we are responsible for wielding that 'impact power' correctly as well.
> 
> What "they" did or did not do does not affect or impact Feanor, his choices, his responsibilities, etc. in the least.


It should also be noted that he sowed confusion as well. His rape of the Telerin ships drew in people who weren't sure what was going on (though perhaps they should have asked first? It also sounds like he sowed lies so he's responsible for that too).

I've always considered "anti-heroes" to at least not be people who kill innocent people in the pursuit of their goals. Goals that are largely "heroic" or at least not evil. Fëanor doesn't even classify as an anti-villain, like the character of Magneto (someone who's goals are largely "heroic" or at least "understandable" but who does wicked things to achieve them). Fëanor has entirely self-serving goals, does wicked things to achieve them, and is more than willing to drag everyone and everything around him down into the pit alongside him. He intentionally killed his allies, he may have even intentionally killed his own son, and he left his own family, friends, and subjects to die. These aren't the actions of an "anti-hero" to me.


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## Ent (Dec 15, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> Only Finwë indulged him.


Ah dear ZehnWaters, you reply well to many points.
The only place I waver from your analysis a little, is with the 'indulgence' issue.

WEBSTER: Indulge:
1 *: *to yield to the desire of
*: *to treat with excessive leniency, generosity, or consideration 
2 *: *to give free rein to 

I've just read all through Feanor recently, and must say I do personally think there were many who 'indulged' him in many ways. But I'll reread (after a bit) to confirm one way or another. There may well be circumstances or nuances I've totally missed.


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## ZehnWaters (Dec 15, 2022)

Ent said:


> Ah dear ZehnWaters, you reply well to many points.
> The only place I waver from your analysis a little, is with the 'indulgence' issue.
> 
> WEBSTER: Indulge:
> ...


There may be some I missed, but it seemed that Finwë was, if not the only one, the greatest offender. When Fëanor threatened murder upon Fingolfin, Finwë joined him in exile. His eldest seemed to ALWAYS be the one who got the most favour because Finwë felt guilty for remarrying (something Fëanor seemed to never let his father live down). So in addition to Fëanor's crimes, we can add emotional manipulation and abuse.


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