# Height of Elrond



## r.j.c.

Well my question is does it ever say anywhere how tall Elrond was. I ask because his father must have been very tall because his grandfather Tuor and both his great grandfathers Turgon & Thingol were extremly tall. Any opinions anyone interested in height of Elves and Edain ? THANKS


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## Confusticated

Normal height for Noldor and Numenoreans was around 7 feet. I reckon Elrond could have been taller but unless his height was remarked upon as being especially tall, he might have been average. Just my opinion.


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## Elthir

This is a matter that varies a bit depending on what text one is referring to. 

In '1968 or later', in _Of Dwarves And Men_ (as noted by Nom): 'They were called 'Halflings'; but this refers to the normal height of Men of Numenorean descent and of the Eldar (especially those of Noldorin descent), which appears to have been about seven of our feet.' However another description reads: 



> 'The Quendi were in origin a tall people. The Eldar (...) they were in general the stronger and taller members of the Elvish folk at that time. In Eldarin tradition it was said that even their women were seldom less than six feet in height; their full-grown elfmen no less than six and a half feet, while some of the great kings and leaders were taller.'
> 
> JRRT, late manuscript, _The Lord of the Rings Reader's Companion_, Hammond and scull, p. 107, entry _'a tall Elf'_


 
I think this must be from Tolkien's reaction to artwork from a poster map by Pauline Baynes, since Hammond and Scull have noted online concerning this: 'We did, in fact, make extensive use of this manuscript in _The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion_ (2005), on pp. 3-4, 107, 229, 244-5, 265, 272, 447, and 493. Christopher Tolkien had earlier published part of it in _Unfinished Tales_ (1980), pp. 286-7. We refer to it variously as a manuscript written _c._ 1969, a late manuscript, a late unpublished note, etc., with the source given only as the Tolkien Papers, Bodleian Library, Oxford.'

Anyway, both texts are late. Another (seemingly) late note says that Celeborn was held by the Lindar of Valinor to be tall: '... but the Teleri were in general somewhat less in build and stature than the Noldor.' (this note is mentioned in the same section as the following on Galadriel). In yet another late note (Appendix, _Numenorean Linear Measures,_ Unfinished Tales) Galadriel is noted as six foot four. And in _The Lord of the_ _Rings_ it was said concerning Galadriel and Celeborn: 'Very tall they were, and the Lady no less tall than the Lord;...'

Not that Tolkien necessarily remembered every other related text when he wrote a given description, but if Celeborn was also six foot four, and he was considered tall for one of the Teleri, even though they were somewhat less in build and stature with the Noldor, this would seemingly make the Teleri generally shorter that six foot four -- which in my opinion is _considerably_ shorter than the seven feet from _Of Dwarves and Men._

I'm not sure Tolkien had worked it all out here, but in any event we are essentially dealing with various draft texts, or unpublished descriptions, which need not agree with each other.


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## Bucky

The average height of a Noldo was _not_ seven feet.

Turgon is described as, at seven feet, as being 'the tallest of the children of Eru' or something like that (pre-Numenorean). Therefore, heights of less than seven feet had to be normal if seven feet was the highest.


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## Confusticated

I don't remember reading Turgon was 7 feet. Where is that written?

He was not always said to be the tallest. Elu Thingol and Turgon's brother Arakano were taller at times, but this is irrelevant since Turgon was in any case taller than the average noldo.


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## Ithrynluin

The Sil describes Thingol as being the tallest of Eru's children, or something to that extent. 

Galadriel and Celeborn were 6 foot 4 according to Unfinished Tales -- but I'm going from memory here -- so I reckon Noldorin women were shorter than Noldorin men, but the same or almost the same height as men of other elven groups (e.g Sindar/Teleri).


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## Confusticated

Galadriel, Man-maiden, "tall beyond the measure even of the women of the Noldor"


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## Elthir

Sharkey said:


> Galadriel and Celeborn were 6 foot 4 according to Unfinished Tales -- but I'm going from memory here -- so I reckon Noldorin women were shorter than Noldorin men, but the same or almost the same height as men of other elven groups (e.g Sindar/Teleri).


 
Galadriel is noted at six foot four in _Unfinished Tales,_ not Celeborn that I recall. We don't know if Tolkien remembered what he had written in _The Lord of the Rings_, so even though I brought up the possibility (due to Galadriel being no less tall than Celeborn in the book), in my opinion it's not a given that Tolkien surely intended _Celeborn 'Silver-tall'_ to be six foot four.



I'm not aware that Turgon is described as seven feet tall anywhere, but rather: 'tallest of all the children of the World, save Thingol'. (notes to the updated Fall of Gondolin, Unfinished Tales). But this was written before the description of Argon, and once again I wonder if Tolkien even remembered this note about Turgon written so many years before. Turgon was arguably going to be tall, but seemingly not as tall as Argon or Thingol... and then again, Argon had perished before Tuor met Turgon.

I would say that the normal height of seven feet is in question due to Tolkien's late manuscript, in any case.


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## Confusticated

Given everything together, I think 7 as an average is too tall. I was remembering "around" 7 feet, not the correct word "about".

Could "about" seven of our feet be interpreted as as little as 6'9? If 6'6 is the shorter end of the spectrum for males then we might marry the two statements with an average of 6'9. If so, I would expect Galadriel to be over 6'4.


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## Bucky

Galin said:


> Galadriel is noted at six foot four in _Unfinished Tales,_ not Celeborn that I recall. We don't know if Tolkien remembered what he had written in _The Lord of the Rings_, so even though I brought up the possibility (due to Galadriel being no less tall than Celeborn in the book), in my opinion it's not a given that Tolkien surely intended _Celeborn 'Silver-tall'_ to be six foot four.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not aware that Turgon is described as seven feet tall anywhere, but rather: 'tallest of all the children of the World, save Thingol'. (notes to the updated Fall of Gondolin, Unfinished Tales). But this was written before the description of Argon, and once again I wonder if Tolkien even remembered this note about Turgon written so many years before. Turgon was arguably going to be tall, but seemingly not as tall as Argon or Thingol... and then again, Argon had perished before Tuor met Turgon.
> 
> I would say that the normal height of seven feet is in question due to Tolkien's late manuscript, in any case.



Yes, you are correct.
I was basing this on the statement that Elendil is 7 feet tall and if that is true, Turgon, 'tallest of all the children of the world' must be at least that tall. However, this was before Numenorean height was increased, therefore my assumption is possibly (but not definitely) in error.

So, let's say Turgon was the tallest Elf?

BTW: later drafts never published = slippery slope of 'non-canon', often contradictory, starting right at The Silmarillion, which of course Christopher, not JRR published, and from as many as 5-6 different sources.


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## Elthir

Yes I think Galadriel, and thus Celeborn, 'need' to be taller to better fit both late descriptions, especially the one from _Of Dwarves And Men_, and especially if we conflate Celeborn being considered tall among the Teleri into all this.

Dealing with notes, sometimes written many years apart, and dealing with variant texts seemingly written at about the same time -- but not being able to tell which came later -- well there's some guesswork involved, and maybe some wriggling. There is also (now) variant text concerning Elendil the Tall -- well, I consider it variant from _Unfinished Tales_ anyway. 'Aragorn, direct descendant of Elendil and his son Isildur, both of whom had been seven feet tall, must nonetheless have been a very tall man…, probably at least 6 ft. 6; and Boromir, of high Númenorean lineage, not much shorter (say 6 ft. 4).'

Also noted in the Reader's Companion from Hammond and Scull.


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## Ithrynluin

Bucky said:


> So, let's say Turgon was the tallest Elf?



No, let's say it's Thingol, like the texts say.


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## r.j.c.

WOW some great posts THANKS. Isn't it ritten that Elendil was 7'11'' or near that height ? Was it ritten that the people of Hador were the tallest people of Beleriand save Thingol ? Could Tolkien have ment them to average over seven foot tall and be taller on average than the Noldor ?


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## Firawyn

Great thread. Can't say I have anything real to contribute more than what's already been said, but I had to post because I'm sitting here laughing to myself, just thinking about how this, realistically, is a minor detail about Tolkien's works in the grand scheme of things, and how it still seems totally fascinating and very important to figure out...and THIS, my friends, is the kind of thing that separate fans from obsessed persons. 

We are obsessed!   Officially.


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## Confusticated

Won't deny it. But you should see the length at which Inderjit and I argued over the date of a note on Celebrimbor's lineage.

r.j.c, I don't remember ever reading that the House of Hador were more tall than the Noldor. They were the tallest of the Edain though. My impression has been they were of a similar height to the Noldor.


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## Turgon

This thread is making me feel inadequate - do we know who the smallest elf was? That would make me feel better. I bet it was somebody like Daeron - but it would be funny if it was Feanor - it would explain a lot in fact!


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## Astrance

Nerdanel : Theses Silmarils are fine, dear, but aren't you overcompensating ? 
Fëanor : Me ? Never ! 

Oh no, now I'm stuck with a Sarkozy-like Fëanor picture in my head... Help me someone !


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## Elthir

Nóm said:


> ... But you should see the length at which Inderjit and I argued over the date of a note on Celebrimbor's lineage.


 
Ok... but where 



r.j.c said:


> Isn't it ritten that Elendil was 7'11'' or near that height?


 
Yes, in a text published in _Unfinished Tales,_ but as I say, now we have another: 'Aragorn, direct descendant of Elendil and his son Isildur, both of whom had been seven feet tall,...' (see above for the fuller version), and Elendil appears smaller here, to me.

Again I don't know which text is later than the other, if that helps one decide perhaps -- according to the dating set out by CJRT and Hammond and Scull anyway.


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## Confusticated

The thread is here, Galin. You're probably familiar with one of the sources we mention that was a mystery to us at the time but has since been published in Vinyar Tengwar.


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## r.j.c.

I don't mean to be redundant but to be clear the height of Elrond was never written or eluded to ?


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## Elthir

Not that I recall anyway, at least not with a specific height.


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## r.j.c.

Galin said:


> Not that I recall anyway, at least not with a specific height.


 

THANK YOU VERY MUCH. I always imagined him as well over seven feet tall that's just my opinion.


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## Alcuin

Galin said:


> This is a matter that varies a bit depending on what text one is referring to. ... I'm not sure Tolkien had worked it all out here, but in any event we are essentially dealing with various draft texts, or unpublished descriptions, which need not agree with each other.


After _The Lord of the Rings_, Tolkien published only _The Road Goes Ever On_. Resolving all the conflicting materials in what we call _Silmarillion_ was simply overwhelming: it includes almost everything in the _History of Middle _ series except the four (more like three-and-a-half) “History of the Lord of the Rings” volumes, plus the _Unfinished Tales_ and _Letters_ materials, as well as all the unpublished material in the archives at Marquette University and Bodleian Library in Oxford. It may be overlapping and republished in several places, but you get the picture: it’s often conflicting, very confused, has taken other folks literally decades to catalogue and arrange, and is simply overwhelming,

That said…

In _Unfinished Tales_, the essay “Disaster of the Gladden Fields”, appendix “Númenórean Linear Measures”, Tolkien wrote that the Númenórean “yard” was the _ranga_, about 38 of our inches. An average Dúnadan was reckoned to be two _ranga_ tall, about 6 foot 4 inches (193 cm). That may be the equivalent of saying the average man in modern times is six feet tall: that isn’t average height even with modern health and diet, but it is the traditional rule of thumb among folks using the old English measurement system.

This essay sets Elendil’s height as “more than man-high by nearly half a _ranga_,” which works out to 7 feet 11 inches or a little less, since it was “nearly half a _ranga_,” which is usually idiomatically interpreted as “almost but not quite”. To put this in perspective, the Wikipedia article for the National Basketball Association, arguably a kind of club for tall men, says the current average height of its players is “just under 6 feet 7 inches (2.01 m),” while its tallest current player is Yao Ming at 7 feet 6 inches (2.29 m). Wikipedia’s list of tallest people lists 4 men who are 7 feet 11 inches tall. 

I hew to the notion that the tallest of all the Children of Eru was Elu Thingol. I believe I have calculated that he was nine feet tall – roughly the same height as Goliath in the Bible (I Samuel 17). (Unfortunately, I cannot find that reference to Thingol’s height right now, so it’s anecdotal at best. I’ll try to relocate it…) Robert Wadlow (1918 –1940) was 8 feet 11.1 inches (2.72 m) tall, so people do grow to that height, however rare that may be. For Wadlow, it carried a price: the Wikipedia article says that, “he required leg braces to walk, and had little feeling in his legs and feet.”



​


Galin said:


> In '1968 or later', in Of Dwarves And Men (as noted by Nom): 'They were called 'Halflings'; but this refers to the normal height of Men of Numenorean descent and of the Eldar (especially those of Noldorin descent), which appears to have been about seven of our feet.' However another description reads:
> 
> 
> 
> 'The Quendi were in origin a tall people. The Eldar (...) they were in general the stronger and taller members of the Elvish folk at that time. In Eldarin tradition it was said that even their women were seldom less than six feet in height; their full-grown elfmen no less than six and a half feet, while some of the great kings and leaders were taller.'
Click to expand...


Beregond told Pippin that he looked “almost as one of our children, a lad of nine summers or so.” Depending upon whose charts you use, nine-year old boys are anywhere from 48 to 54 inches tall at nine years, four to four-and-a-half feet tall. (My beloved Aunt Kat, God rest her sweet soul, was maybe 4 foot 10 inches, and I was as tall as she somewhere around that age. “It’s no great accomplishment,” she retorted when I point out that I was as tall as she. “Everyone’s taller than I am.”) Pippin and Merry were uncommonly large for hobbits, certainly the largest of their day; and Bilbo’s great-uncle Bullroarer Took was almost 5 feet tall, if I remember correctly.

_Reader's Companion_ p. 229 (referencing _LotR_ p 242) has Galin’s citation of the unpublished Tolkien Papers, Bodleian Library, Oxford, saying that Aragorn was 6 feet 6 inches (198 cm), and Boromir was 6 feet 4 inches. (By NBA averages, Aragorn play forward position, but Boromir was probably too short.) 

I have a sense that Elves in particular were getting shorter as time went on. Even Galadriel, after renouncing the Ring, appeared to Frodo “shrunken: a slender elf-woman”. Perhaps that means she only appeared shrunken after his vision of her as Ring-lord passed; but I think that in giving up her private dreams of power and glory, she may well have shrunk physically. Elwë Thingol, born near Cuiviénen, was tallest; Turgon, born in Eldamar, was next tallest. Turgon was Elrond’s great-grandfather, and Elu Thingol was Elrond’s great-great-grandfather. 

But perhaps these characters were also growing shorter in Tolkien’s telling as time went on as well.


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## Elthir

Alcuin said:


> (...) This essay sets Elendil’s height as “more than man-high by nearly half a _ranga_,” which works out to 7 feet 11 inches or a little less, since it was “nearly half a _ranga_,” which is usually idiomatically interpreted as “almost but not quite”.


 
And this illustrates my point above: it depends upon which 'unpublished' text one chooses, because there is also variant text concerning Elendil the Tall -- or as I say, I consider it variant from _Unfinished Tales_ anyway: 'Aragorn, direct descendant of Elendil and his son Isildur, both of whom had been seven feet tall, must nonetheless have been a very tall man…, probably at least 6 ft. 6; and Boromir, of high Númenorean lineage, not much shorter (say 6 ft. 4).'



> I hew to the notion that the tallest of all the Children of Eru was Elu Thingol. I believe I have calculated that he was nine feet tall – ...


 
I don't recall any _specific_ reference to Thingol's height beyond what you already noted here, that he was said to be the tallest of God's children. 



> Elwë Thingol, born near Cuiviénen, was tallest; Turgon, born in Eldamar, was next tallest. Turgon was Elrond’s great-grandfather, and Elu Thingol was Elrond’s great-great-grandfather.


 
Don't forget that in _The Shibboleth of Feanor_ Argon was said to be taller than Turgon, though he (Argon) was slain rather early (again, culling from various draft texts written at various times, all of which which were not necessarily meant to agree with each other).


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## ltnjmy

Turgon said:


> This thread is making feel inadequate - do we know who the smallest elf was? That would make me feel better. I bet it was somebody like Daeron - but it would be funny if it was Feanor - it would explain a lot in fact!


 
That is so funny - yes - if Feanor was the smallest it would explain a lot !!


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## lorkar

ltnjmy said:


> That is so funny - yes - if Feanor was the smallest it would explain a lot !!


 
i dont think feanor was the smallest, omg, he is clearly described in the silmarillion to be tall, not as tall as the tallest of the noldor, but he wasnt a little one lol...he was like the same size as fingolfin, like 1, 2 inches smaller i speculate, because fingolfin have vanyar blood.

as his brother elros, elrond should have been like the standard height of numenoreans, period, not concrete prove can be given that i know, cos it wasnt written anywhere in the book


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## ThorTheMighty

Confusticated said:


> Given everything together, I think 7 as an average is too tall. I was remembering "around" 7 feet, not the correct word "about".
> 
> Could "about" seven of our feet be interpreted as as little as 6'9? If 6'6 is the shorter end of the spectrum for males then we might marry the two statements with an average of 6'9. If so, I would expect Galadriel to be over 6'4.


If you consider *6'6"* being the *shorter end of the spectrum* I don't see the problem with the average being much higher, say about 7 feet tall like It says in the other statement. Here is an example of Tolkien's "spectrum range" regarding the Halflings (which the name Itself correlates with the Eldar) also in Hammond and Scull book:
'... the hobbits of the Shire were in height between 3 and 4 feet in height, never less and seldom more ...'
- Tolkien then (in the same manuscrits) goes on to mention how the male average was 3'5" or 3'6" in another description.

We should also note that in the Hammond and scull description the Eldar are mentioned as a whole, while in the _Of Dwarves And Men _description It does specify the Noldor as being the ones who most often reach 7 feet. - '... _Eldar (especially those of Noldorin descent),...'_

What I mean is that you also have to consider the fact that the "end of the spectrum" from a Noldor Eldar was probably higher. That is if you consider the descriptions where the Noldor are somewhat taller than the Teleri Eldar.

And yes, no matter how you look at It 6'4" for Galadriel seems way too short, specially considering The Eldar women were "seldom less" than six feet tall and Galadriel was accounted as:
"She grew to be tall beyond the measure *even* of the women of the Noldor."
'The Eldar of the Elder Days were also very tall. Galadriel, “the tallest of all the women of the Eldar of whom tales tell,”'


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## ThorTheMighty

I would say Erlond was around 7 feet tall given the Eldar heights given by Tolkien and that the descendants of Hador were very tall too.


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## grendel

Apropos of nothing, I will interject here that I once met Hall of Fame NBA player Bill Walton (6' 11" or 211 cm IRL) in person. I was working gate security at a game and he was one of the announcers, and he happened to come in through my post. My first and overwhelming thought was "My God, that man has the biggest head I have ever seen on a human being!" You just don't realize how BIG these guys are when you only see them on TV.

I have to think _someone_ in the Company had a similar thought upon meeting a 7 foot tall Elrond. (Well, not the TV part.)


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