# Why did Balin return to Khazad-dûm?



## Chymaera (Jun 30, 2002)

*Why did Balin return to Khazad-dum?*

Balin must have realized that Durin's Bane, The Balrog, was still in Moria.
Why leave Erebor? 

Balin had his 'thirteenth share'. So money wasn't the problem.
He didn't need to go.


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## Anarchist (Jul 2, 2002)

Perhaps his unrestful character and his will for adventure pushed him to visit this place. Remember how Gimli loved the place when he visited it. Perhaps he wanted to see the beauty of that place.


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## Chymaera (Jul 6, 2002)

Here is my theory; After the Battle of the Five Armys. Balin who was, after Thorin's death, the senior dwarf from the Blue mountains. Balin was Thorin's younger cousin, and was next in line of succesion (from the Blue mountains anyway). 
Of course the True heir was Dain, and he was there with a large army behind him. Dain being the leader of the Grey hills dwarves claimed the newly freed Lonely Mountain. 

Now Dain had it pretty good before, in the Grey hills, but now with the riches of Erebor he was rolling in it. This just rubbed Balin and the Blue mountain dwarves the wrong way, here they did all the hard work in their view and the big rewards that they wold have recieved if Thorin was alive were greatly diminshed. Balin who had had the ear of the leaders of Durin's folk from the days of Thrain and after with Thorin was suddenly out of the loop. Dain would not let Balin in to his inner circle.

In after days Balin as the leader of the Blue mountain faction would prove to be a thorn in the side to Dain and his Grey hills majority.

At about this time Balin went off with Gandalf for a 'visit' to the shire to see Bilbo, and I bet they came the long way around to go by the East and West enterences of Khazad-dum, just to see the lay of the land. 

I imagine that Gandalf and Balin had a number of interesting discusion about what kind of Force would be needed to regain the Mines. A large enough force of dwarves with the right stratagem and A major member of the White councel backing them up just might have a chance of defeating a 'Balrog of Morgoth'.

It was easy to get Dain's permition to go on this expedition. He would win either way; If Balin won, then Balin would be 'Lord of Moria' and out of Dain's hair, if Balin lost, Balin would be out of Dain's hair. _'Sure Balin you may go with my blessings'_

It was so sad to hear of the news of Balin at the 'Councel of Elornd', Gandalf pulled off a good piece af acting there. Ever wonder why Gandalf was so against going through Moria, he know exactly what awaiting them there. At Balin's Tomb Gandalf knew what he had went he picked up Balin's book, Gandalf himself must have made some of the last entries. He was there at the end, and escaped out the backdoor!

There I got that off my chest. That story has been running through my mind for awhile now. Of course this is only an opinion that I have formed form a lot of reading between the lines, I could be wrong 

What do you think?


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## Anarchist (Jul 8, 2002)

now this is a long and very good theory. I haven't studied this issue much so I can't prove you wrong. But I don't think that Gandalf would lie in any way. It wasn't his type.


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## Chymaera (Jul 8, 2002)

I am sure there was no malice on Gandalf's part. But he could been hiding the truth in an effort not to scare his 'Fellows' too much.

As I said theree is a lot of reading between the lines here.


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## Galdor (Jul 18, 2002)

quote]...Gandalf himself must have made some of the last entries. He was there at the end, and escaped out the backdoor![/quote]

Interesting theory but I agree with Anarchist. As to your above quote, the last few pages are identified as Ori's hand righting by Gimli.


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## Chymaera (Jul 19, 2002)

I renounce all slander against Gandalf.  

I still like the Family Feud part though 

after rereading FR Gandalf clearly is surprised that Durin's Bane is a Balrog. 

But the Balrog must have hiden itself for five years while the dwarves established themselves.

It also must have hidden when Gandalf went through Moria the first time.

Why did the Balrog stay in the mines when it could have wrecked major havoc largely uncontested?

How intelligent do think Balrogs are anyway?


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## Galdor (Jul 19, 2002)

I would gess that Balrogs are just as smart as the Wizards being that they are all the same race.


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## Chymaera (Jul 21, 2002)

You would think that. Maybe he was just waiting for Mogorth to return.


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## Elfarmari (Aug 19, 2002)

just another hypothesis: maybe the balrog did come in the final assault against the dwarves. The book ends with 'they are coming', and obviously does not give an account of the following battle. Or, the balrog decided to intervene only when the threat was too great for orcs alone to conquer (i.e. Gandalf), and allowed the orcs to do the dirty work for him.


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## Ithrynluin (May 4, 2003)

*yoink*

What does everyone think of Chymaera's theory?


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## Feanorian (May 5, 2003)

I think it is a very good and solid one. I can see how he would be angry with Dain after he and the other dwarves of the Blue Mountains had worked so hard and were at the last ousted by Dain. However, I think he was also driven by the fact that Moria remained dormant and shut out, he knew there was evil in there but I think he was under the impression he could defeat it, and when they got their there was not much to find except Mithril but then they stirred the orcs with their digging. They were caught at unawares. Although I think a trip to Moria without a LARGE army was kinda foolish.


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## Inderjit S (May 5, 2003)

Balin doesn't strike me as one to be bitter at being passed up as king for Dain, but I think that some of the pride that was dominant with the Longbeard dwarves, at being a High Prince, to to speak, od Ruin's line, lead him to desire to create a new kingdom, especially one in the 'home' of the Longbeards and all major Western Dwarvish tribes, Khazad-dum.

It seems odd that Dain would allow for him to go, considering his words to Thrain, after the battle of Azanulbizar:



> 'No' said Dain 'You are the father of our folk, and we have bled for you, and will again. but we will not enter Khazad-dum....only I have looked though the shadow of the gates. Beyond the shadow it waits for you still: Durin's Bane. The world must change and some other power other then ours must come before Durin's folk enter Moria


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## Chymaera (May 10, 2003)

I understand that the reason the Gandalf helped Thorin & Co. in the Quest for Erebor was to get rid of Smaug, who could have been a tool that Sauron could unleashed in the men and elves of the North. 

It could be possible I think for Gandalf to have the same idea about Moria.

Lead a large group of dwarves to Moria to reestablish the kingdom, further strenghtening the North. Balin ruled for 5 years before the orcs and later the Balrog appeared. 

Gandalf could have encouraged Balin to go to Moria and that Gandalf was away when Durin's Bane returned.


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## Celebthôl (May 10, 2003)

Somewhere miles up there ^ you wrote that Gandalf didnt want to enter Moria, this is only true in the bilm, in the book it was Aragorn who didnt want to enter Moria, but the Balin theory is a good one, however i think that all Dwarves wanted to regain the splendour of Moria, it was the Dwarves greatest work ijn any area on Arda.
I doubt that Gandalf was with Balin and his meger (sp) army, as he didnt care for Moria and he knew all to well of that which dwelt down in the depths. He also knew it was a folly to try to re-take Moria that soon...


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## baragund (May 14, 2003)

I agree with Celebthol. It was the overriding desire of the dwarves to return Khazad-dum to it's former glory that drove Balin to prematurely try to retake it. Enough years had gone by to make Durin's Bane the stuff of legend and the dwarves success at Erebor made them just cocky enough to try the conquest.

Also, I think there was a large dose of revenge involved. The War of the Dwarves and the Orcs which ended in the battle of Azanulbizar in TA 2799 was truly a brutal, grinding and bloody conflict. News of the orcs that had reoccupied Moria must have really ticked the dwarves off and was enough to goad them into trying something rash.


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## Elendil3119 (Jun 4, 2003)

What about mithril? Wasn't Khazad-dum still rich with it? I agree with Chymaera's theory, but I think that mithril would have also been a factor. I wouldn't blame Balin in the least for wanting to have his own kingdom. About the Balrog, did the Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain even get good reports of what had happened? I'm sure they heard that Dain had been killed by some sort of creature, but what that creature was was probably a mystery. It could be that revenge, as baragund said, against the Orcs and also the Balrog that was a reason for Balin's return to Moria.


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## Beleg (Jun 5, 2003)

> I'm sure they heard that Dain had been killed by some sort of creature



I don't follow you? Dain was killed in the Lonely Mountain during the war of the ring.


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## Elendil3119 (Jun 5, 2003)

Did I say Dain? I meant Durin VI. Anyways, my point is that perhaps Balin and Co. did not realize what sort of creature inhabited Moria. A possible factor in their return could have been revenge for the death of Durin VI.


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## Eriol (Jun 5, 2003)

As for Balin's motives, I think the ground was pretty well covered by all posters. Mithril; desire to rule; longing for the greatest and oldest of the Dwarf-mansions; a bit of jealousy. All of these could have played a part. (And let's not forget the Ring! In the Council of Elrond Glóin admits that one of the reasons was to find Thrór's Ring).

As for Gandalf's influence, I don't see it. I don't think Gandalf visited the Mountain between the Battle of Five Armies and Balin's departure. And certainly, as Chymaera hs acknowledged, Gandalf was surprised at discovering a Balrog in Moria.


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## Chymaera (Jun 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Eriol _
> *As for Gandalf's influence, I don't see it. I don't think Gandalf visited the Mountain between the Battle of Five Armies and Balin's departure. And certainly, as Chymaera hs acknowledged, Gandalf was surprised at discovering a Balrog in Moria. *


 Read over the last Chapter of the Hobbit again: where nine years after Gandalf and Balin were traveling West and stopped in to visit Bilbo.

That is where I start to speculate


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## HLGStrider (Apr 26, 2004)

Hmm. . .

I think Chy's political bit is likely, but it never struck me as how things were. Thorin's dwarves all seem very well off. They're getting fat and rich and having fun. 

I can see Balin at first enjoying the leisure but after awhile the glamor wears off and he starts to look fondly upon the old days when he lived by the seat of his pants, besides he's getting older and he doesn't want to get older. He has one last quest in him.

The choice of quest is obvious. Dwarves like Mithril. Dwarves have a lot of pride staked in that old cave. It's bound to be safe by now. That instance with whatever it was was a long time ago.

It is possible he may have been planning it on his way to see Bilbo, but would he have mentioned it to Gandalf? I don't think so. Dwarves are naturally secretive. Gandalf may have guessed, of course, but been told directly, no.


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## Arthur_Vandelay (Apr 26, 2004)

I wonder if the fact that Sauron had been driven from Dol Guldur might have had anything to do with Balin's desire to re-take Moria. The White Council would have been under no illusions that Sauron was destroyed; but many other folk of the region must have felt that a great shadow of danger had been lifted--and that "the world had changed." 

I also wonder how much would have been known among the dwarves about the nature of Durin's Bane (i.e. the fact that it was a Balrog). Perhaps the death of Smaug suggested to Balin and his followers that, whatever lurked still in Moria, it too might be slain. Does anyone think that Balin might have asked Bilbo if he could once again perform some reconnaissance work for the dwarves?


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## HLGStrider (Apr 27, 2004)

I don't feel it was likely Balin asked Bilbo to be involved. For starters, I just feel we would've heard about it somehow. Bilbo doesn't mention going to visit Balin when he takes off though he does express interest in a visit to the Lonely Mountain. You'd think Moria would be part of his plans if he was aware of that colonization by one of the best dwarves on the quest.

Another thing, I don't see Balin seeing a burgler as necessary in this business. This would've been seen as much more honorable, and Durin's bane as something best bested in full armor in battle, not by stealth. This was first of all a military operation. There was no way they could just sneak in and steal small amounts of Mithril. It was all Moria or none of Moria.


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## Inderjit S (Apr 28, 2004)

> Does anyone think that Balin might have asked Bilbo if he could once again perform some reconnaissance work for the dwarves



Why did he ignore Dáin’s prophecy about the higher, powerful, non-Dwarven being coming and killing the threat in Moria? Prophecies don't always come true of course, but he should have been more wary.


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## HLGStrider (Apr 30, 2004)

Perhaps he was lulled into a sense of security by the calm after the Battle of Five armies. So much had been accomplished and so much evil purged in such a short time that the Dwarves, White Council, and Hobbits all seem to feel invincible. 

Gandalf allows Sarumen to convince him to ignore the ring just a bit longer. 

The White Council does a half job on Dul Guldor but seems satisfied with it, satisfied that Sauron is once again squelched for a considerable amount of time.

The Dwarves. . .well, they've defeated one enemy who was supposedly invincible and the more recent terror of Smaug was probably more frightening to them than any legend of unnamed evil in Moria which was easy to overlook as a tall tale. 

Smart? No. . .but highly probable.


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## Inderjit S (May 3, 2004)

Ignoring the fact that it was not the Dwarves alone who defeated Smaug, rather Bilbo and Bard as well as other secondary actors such as the thrush and Gandalf played a large part in the defeat of Smaug, 'Durin's Bane' could not be a tall tale since he was in the Dwarves nightmares, or some of the Dwarves nightmares....pretty hard to refute something if he comes in your dreams and he if firmly imbedded in your myths as the thing which drove you out of your home-land. Dáin of course caught some kind of glimpse of the Balrog, or sensed his presence, and he said Moria could not be re-populated until some powerful being came and killed Durin's bane, that may have been seen as a tall tale, since how many powerful beings were their exactly and besides they may have been the incoherent ramblings of a crazed, young Dwarf.


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## Gildor (May 3, 2004)

I'd say mainly the lure of Mithril, a desire to revisit and restore lost glory, and the slim hope of finding Thror's Ring. With Dwarven fortunes waxing and the greater part of the Misty Mountain goblins/orcs killed in the battle of five armies, it probably seemed like as good a time as any to make the attempt.


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## HLGStrider (May 4, 2004)

> some powerful being came and killed Durin's bane


 
I've never got ahold of a complete HoMe, which is I believe where you're paraphrasing from, so could you give me a direct quote?

Is it possible that they thought a powerful dwarf would work? A great dwarf lord? 

And I really doubt the dwarves gave that much credit to the other folks involved in Smaug's defeat. They were unwilling to share the treasure with those who helped them, obviously and almost got into a war with them over it.


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## Inderjit S (May 4, 2004)

"Beyond the shadow it waits for you still: Durin's bane. The world must change and som other power other then ours must come before Durin's folk walk again in Moria" 'Appendix A' Durin's Folk

This was said to the Dwarven king of the time. 'Our' is a reference to the Dwarven race, as a whole.


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## Aglarband (May 4, 2004)

Or the lies of Sauron made Balin wish to return to Moria. Just a huntch since thats wat Gloin says during the Councile of Elrond. He dosn't come out and say it, because he dons't know, but he hints on it.


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## Inderjit S (May 5, 2004)

Gloin never says anything about the "lies of Sauron" he talks about Dwarvish unrest. Sauron is never mentioned in Gloin's account of the Dwarvish unrest or disquiet.


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## Starflower (May 5, 2004)

maybe Balin was driven simply by that oh so dwarvish trait: greed. Maybe he hungered to find a hitherto unknown lode of mithril in Moria, it would make him rich and famous... he after all did title himself, Balin, lord of Moria. After all now the Kingdom under the Mountain had been recovered from Smaug, what else was there left to discover except the famed Khazad-dum?


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## Inderjit S (May 5, 2004)

Well, one get the impression that they were feeling enclosed in Erebor and wanted to reclaim their ancestral kingdom of Moria. It's like the Noldor going back to Tirion, the Iathrim Sindar to Doriath and the Númenóreans back to Númenór.

Plus of course, the Dwarven ring.


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## Gamil Zirak (May 7, 2004)

I don't think Balin and Gandalf travelled together close to the gates of Moria. When Balin overtakes Moria, his company has to fight their way in.

The Balrog probably didn't have anything to do with the demise of the dwarves under Balin's watch. It just isn't written that way.


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