# Fëanor



## Pippin (Apr 9, 2002)

Here is a good one (at least i see it as),

How do you think thins had turned if Fëanor`s father (right now i can remember the name) han´t got marry again?, Would Fëanor stilll listen to Melkor and all his things?





Pippin


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## Varda (Apr 9, 2002)

I don't think I understand the question


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## Maedhros (Apr 10, 2002)

> How do you think thins had turned if Fëanor`s father (right now i can remember the name) han´t got marry again?, Would Fëanor stilll listen to Melkor and all his things?


That's an interesting proposal Pippin. If Finwe (his father) wouldn't have married again. Hmmmmmm.


> The wedding of his father was not pleasing to Fëanor; and he had no great love for Indis, nor for Fingolfin and Finarfin, her sons. He lived apart from them, exploring the land of Aman, or busying himself with the knowledge and the crafts in which he delighted. In those unhappy things which later came to pass, and in which Fëanor was the leader, many saw the effect of this breach within the house of Finwë, judging that if Finwë had endured his loss and been content with the fathering of his mighty son, the courses of Fëanor would have been otherwise, and great evil might have been prevented; for the sorrow and the strife in the house of Finwë is graven in the memory of the Noldorin Elves.


If Finwe had not wed Indis, then Feanor wouldn't have been exiled to Formenos, Melkor would have had to assail Finwe's house in Tirion to take the Silmarils.
If Finwe had been killed and the Silmarils stolen, the outcome would have been the same. Feanor would have gone to ME, swore the oath and then bring war to Morgoth, killing the Teleri and then the whole Doom of Mandos.
The only positive thing that i see is that the Noldor would have been united against Morgoth, not divided as they were in the Sil.


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## Rangerdave (Apr 10, 2002)

No second marriage, no Finarfin, no Fingolfin, no Gil-Galad, no Elrond,no Galadriel,no Arwen, no Aragorn. etc etc etc.

In short nearly none of the major players of the second and third ages.

This would be a very bad thing.
RD


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## Úlairi (Apr 10, 2002)

And in conclusion of that point Sauron probavly would have won the War of the Ring.


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## Maedhros (Apr 10, 2002)

> In short nearly none of the major players of the second and third ages.


That's not neccesarily true. You see, there would have been no division among the Noldor, they would have provided a better front against Morgoth.
According to that interaction, there probably would have been other characters that took the place of the usual ones, thus providing for a different story.


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## Rangerdave (Apr 11, 2002)

Quite true,
The Noldor would have been a unified front. But many of the really neato-keen characters we have all come to know and love would never have been born.

Especially Galadriel. 
(My secret fantasy elf)

RD

besides, my first post was more for humor's sake than any serious discussion.

r


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## Úlairi (Apr 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Maedhros _
> *
> That's not neccesarily true. You see, there would have been no division among the Noldor, they would have provided a better front against Morgoth.
> According to that interaction, there probably would have been other characters that took the place of the usual ones, thus providing for a different story. *



Indefinitely, but I do not think a unified Noldor would counter Sauron as well as if Feanor hadn't been exiled. You see, it would be most probable that Celebrimbor wouldn't have made the Rings of Power in Eregion so the power of certain areas like Rivendell and Lorien therefore wouldn't have been in existence. If Sauron had come to ME, I believe he would have found it easier to control the Noldor seeing as most of them would most probably have been under the leadership of Feanor, who may have gained the Silmarils (how are they going to beat Sauron?). Feanor was the greatest Elf in craft and I believe Sauron would have seduced him by promising him to teach him crafts to make indomitable things and therefore Sauron would also be indomitable with the things that Feanor would have made with his help. I mean, can you imagine the power of the craft that Feanor would have made with the help of Sauron? Just a theory, but an extremely good one at that.


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## Turgon (Apr 11, 2002)

Sorry guys but no second marriage, no Silmarillion. That's the bottom line. The divisions in the house of Finwe are fundamental to the story, in fact without the divisions there is no story. Think of it this way. Feanor grows up a happy fellow, crafts the Silmarils... Melkor finding the Noldor a happy bunch of bunnies with no divisions to exploit, meets up with Ungoliant, kills the Two Trees - whilst all the happy Noldor are feasting (of course Finwe would not have been in exile at Formenost but would have been at the feast and so on, and so on) Melkor runs away. Feanor is asked for the Silmarils by the Valar and being the happy contented fellow that he is agrees (or his beloved father pursuades him)... the trees are healed and everyone lives happily ever after. Yay!
Okay, maybe it wouldn't have happened exactly like this (it's just another piece of pointless speculation), but it must be remembered that the Silmarillion is for the most part the story of the Fall of the Noldor (the Noldorlante) and without the second marriage there would have been no fall. No, nor no redemption either, no Fingolfin, no Turgon... no Turgon, no Idril... no Idril, no Earendil... no Earendil, no War of Wrath.


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## Beleg Strongbow (Apr 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Turgon _
> *Sorry guys but no second marriage, no Silmarillion. That's the bottom line. The divisions in the house of Finwe are fundamental to the story, in fact without the divisions there is no story. Think of it this way. Feanor grows up a happy fellow, crafts the Silmarils... Melkor finding the Noldor a happy bunch of bunnies with no divisions to exploit, meets up with Ungoliant, kills the Two Trees - whilst all the happy Noldor are feasting (of course Finwe would not have been in exile at Formenost but would have been at the feast and so on, and so on) Melkor runs away. Feanor is asked for the Silmarils by the Valar and being the happy contented fellow that he is agrees (or his beloved father pursuades him)... the trees are healed and everyone lives happily ever after. Yay!
> Okay, maybe it wouldn't have happened exactly like this (it's just another piece of pointless speculation), but it must be remembered that the Silmarillion is for the most part the story of the Fall of the Noldor (the Noldorlante) and without the second marriage there would have been no fall. No, nor no redemption either, no Fingolfin, no Turgon... no Turgon, no Idril... no Idril, no Earendil... no Earendil, no War of Wrath. *










Thats right


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## Úlairi (Apr 12, 2002)

> _ Originally posted by Turgon_
> 
> Sorry guys but no second marriage, no Silmarillion. That's the bottom line. The divisions in the house of Finwe are fundamental to the story, in fact without the divisions there is no story. Think of it this way. Feanor grows up a happy fellow, crafts the Silmarils...



AND THEN MELKOR STEALS THEM! What you have stated Turgon is a false presumption. If Feanor had made the Silmarils regardless of the fact that there may have been no division, it would still have prompted Melkor to steal them out of sheer greed, and we would have a Silmarillion, just a very different one and today the Two Trees of Valinor would most probably still be our source of light.


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## Turgon (Apr 12, 2002)

What I stated was not a false presumption, Ulairi - it was, as I stated in my post a 'pointless speculation', let me give you another bit of PS, what opportunity did Melkor have to steal the Silmarils? He couldn't have done it after the poisoning the Two-Trees as Happy Feanor would have been wearing them at the feast, when the feast ends he gives them up to Valar, there are no Silmarils left to steal... again pointless speculation. But the whole idea of my post was to warn against pointless spectulation, not to give a new history of the Silmarillion.

P.S. I love pointless speculation!!!


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## Úlairi (Apr 12, 2002)

OK, stick with pointless specualtion, with it, you can get yourself out of trouble quite easily. I believe that Melkor probably would still have found some way to steal the Silmarils, I just don't know how.


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## Beleg Strongbow (Apr 13, 2002)

Mayb his father would have been able to calm him down thats if, if the silmarils were stolen. Feanor seemed to listen only to him and he was his king mayb then the vala would have sent over a force and smashed him i don't know know one does.


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## Úlairi (Apr 13, 2002)

That would have to be left up to the master himself, Mr. John Ronald Reuel Tolkien.


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## Beleg Strongbow (Apr 14, 2002)

Yes it would and it would still be brilliant.


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## Úlairi (Apr 14, 2002)

I must agree also.


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## Beleg Strongbow (Apr 14, 2002)

Anything he does is gr8.


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## Úlairi (Apr 15, 2002)

I agree indefinitely.


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## Grond (Apr 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *That would have to be left up to the master himself, Mr. John Ronald Reuel Tolkien. *


Foul. You can't participate in a speculation thread and then dump it back on the author. A speculation thread is meant to speculate what the author would have, could have, should have done. It is unfair to slip him back into the equation after taking him out by starting a speculation thread in the first place.


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## Úlairi (Apr 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Grond _
> *Foul. You can't participate in a speculation thread and then dump it back on the author. A speculation thread is meant to speculate what the author would have, could have, should have done. It is unfair to slip him back into the equation after taking him out by starting a speculation thread in the first place. *



Despite the fact that the thread is speculative Grond, Tolkien wrote 'The Silmarillion' not me. What Tolkien did with 'The Silmarillion' was not my decision. I never speculated anything, in fact, read a few posts above where even though there is a possibility that Feanor did not get banished, I believe the Silamrils still would have been stolen by Morgoth. If that was the case I would leave that decision entirely up to Tolkien to decide what he would want to do with what had been presented to him. Tolkien's publisher _Ray & Unwin[/B] made Tolkien change a few things in LotR and completely rejected the Silmarillion until LotR became famous. If they did so, then why can't I?_


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## Maedhros (Apr 16, 2002)

> Sorry guys but no second marriage, no Silmarillion. That's the bottom line. The divisions in the house of Finwe are fundamental to the story, in fact without the divisions there is no story. Think of it this way. Feanor grows up a happy fellow, crafts the Silmarils


There could still be a story with Feanor, although a much difficult one. I don't think that Feanor was happy, there is always the death of his mother. This is somthing that JRRT could have played differently. Granted it would have been more difficult to slay Finwe in Tirion rather than in Formenos, still it could be possible.


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## Beleg Strongbow (Apr 16, 2002)

Yes but nearly everything is possible.


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## Maedhros (Apr 16, 2002)

Well Beleg, tell that to the people who thought that the Noldor war against Morgoth was impossible.


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## Turgon (Apr 16, 2002)

> By Maedhros
> There could still be a story with Feanor, although a much difficult one. I don't think that Feanor was happy, there is always the death of his mother. This is somthing that JRRT could have played differently. Granted it would have been more difficult to slay Finwe in Tirion rather than in Formenos, still it could be possible.


Firstly Maedhros, when I wrote my post about the Sil. without the Finwe's second marriage - I had in my mind the idea that Feanor (eventually - before he reached adulthood anyway) would have come to terms with his mother's 'death'. My interpretation of Feanor's anger is that it is not grounded in the fact that his Mother 'died', but because his father had married again, and that he felt that his mother had been supplanted in his father's love by Indis. The same way he felt that his brothers had supplanted him.
Secondly I believe that their could have been a Feanor story too. Feanor is the single most facinating character, in my opinion, in the whole Sil. and so would have loved to have read Tolkien's version of it...


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## Maedhros (Apr 16, 2002)

> My interpretation of Feanor's anger is that it is not grounded in the fact that his Mother 'died', but because his father had married again, and that he felt that his mother had been supplanted in his father's love by Indis. The same way he felt that his brothers had supplanted him.


Could be, but remember that this was the only case when an elf died of "natural causes" and in Valinor.



> Feanor is the single most facinating character, in my opinion, in the whole Sil.


I'm sure Grond totally agrees with you.


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## Grond (Apr 16, 2002)

Actually, I think Turin is more fascinating than Feanor only because he is probed more deeply and his story has both more depth and length. Feanor is, without a doubt, the most fascinating Elf in the Silmarillion and don't think that because I disapprove of Feanor's actions that I don't admire his character. He was the "greatest" of the Noldor when one takes all of the combined attributes into account. He was also the "most foul" of the Noldor when one takes all of his actions into account. 

Grond is unable to resolve the kinslaying of Aqualonde. That one act was so heinous and despicable that his image was forever tarnished in my eyes. To so fouly slay one's kin for merely refusing a service, is unforgiveable and it was that act that brought about the Doom of Mandos. His character is still the most fascinating in the Sil except for Turin's. 

Are you surprised Maedhros? One mustn't admire a character to admit that he is, indeed, fascinating.


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## Maedhros (Apr 16, 2002)

LOL. Nope, I'm not surprised. Actually, I don't think much of Turin myself.


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## Grond (Apr 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Maedhros _
> *LOL. Nope, I'm not surprised. Actually, I don't think much of Turin myself. *


That was the point of my post. One doesn't have to think much of a character to admit that they are fascinating. I don't thing much of Feanor but admit that he is a most fascinating character. I think even less of Turin but again admit that he is the most fascinating character (to me) in the Silmarillion.


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## Beleg Strongbow (Apr 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Grond _
> *That was the point of my post. One doesn't have to think much of a character to admit that they are fascinating. I don't thing much of Feanor but admit that he is a most fascinating character. I think even less of Turin but again admit that he is the most fascinating character (to me) in the Silmarillion.  *






Yes well those 2 melkor and beren and luthien were both explored eaply as others like Huan or Beleg Strongbow aren't explored so you can't dislike or like them as much because you don't know them as well.


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## Úlairi (Apr 17, 2002)

Feanor is no doubt the most fascinating Elf, but he is definitely not my favourite of the characters of Tolkien's 'Silmarillion'. Feanor used his intelligence and skill in craft to make the Silmarils and the Palantir, therefore he was fascinating. But he rebelled against the Valar and lead the slaying of Celeborn's people (i can't be bothered to look up the name now), which makes one despise him in some ways.


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## Beleg Strongbow (Apr 17, 2002)

Yes he is. His deeds will never be matched against and he was truly powerful in many forms. The name was the Teleri . Ulairi.


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## Úlairi (Apr 17, 2002)

Yes, I just looked it up. Thanks anyway Beleg.


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## Maedhros (Apr 17, 2002)

> But he rebelled against the Valar and lead the slaying of Celeborn's people (i can't be bothered to look up the name now), which makes one despise him in some ways


And makes his great in other ways.


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## Grond (Apr 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Maedhros _
> *And makes his great in other ways. *


Maedhros, now you're making me angry. Are you insinuating the the Kinslaying of Aqualonde made Feanor great in other ways. The needless and senseless slaying of one's friends and kin has and will always be the most despicable of acts. If you seek to defend Feanor's character, I suggest you delve into other areas for the Kinslaying is his worst moment.


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## Turgon (Apr 17, 2002)

> That was the point of my post. One doesn't have to think much of a character to admit that they are fascinating. I don't thing much of Feanor but admit that he is a most fascinating character. I think even less of Turin but again admit that he is the most fascinating character (to me) in the Silmarillion.



Have to agree with Grond here. Among the Eldar, there are none who fascinate me more than Feanor - but when it comes down to it Finrod, Turgon and even your good self, Maedhros, are the people I actually admire in the Sil. The same goes for Turin - he is without a doubt the most fascinating amongst the Edain, but my admiration goes to Tuor and Beren... Feanor's sins far outweigh his merits, it always gets me that the greatest mind amongst the Children of Illuvatar, was totally oblivious to the great light of reason...


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## Úlairi (Apr 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Turgon _
> *Have to agree with Grond here. Among the Eldar, there are none who fascinate me more than Feanor - but when it comes down to it Finrod, Turgon and even your good self, Maedhros, are the people I actually admire in the Sil. The same goes for Turin - he is without a doubt the most fascinating amongst the Edain, but my admiration goes to Tuor and Beren... Feanor's sins far outweigh his merits, it always gets me that the greatest mind amongst the Children of Illuvatar, was totally oblivious to the great light of reason... *



I too agree with Grond and Turgon. The kinslaying of the Alqualonde is Feanor's worst moment. It is when he stoops down to his absolute lowest. I cannot believe what Feanor did could be in anyway 'great'. Feanor was an Elf who was driven for power and glory, which makes him fascinating, but his actions are wrong, completely. His pride was his downfall.


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## Maedhros (Apr 18, 2002)

> Maedhros, now you're making me angry. Are you insinuating the the Kinslaying of Aqualonde made Feanor great in other ways. The needless and senseless slaying of one's friends and kin has and will always be the most despicable of acts. If you seek to defend Feanor's character, I suggest you delve into other areas for the Kinslaying is his worst moment.


Grond, I knew you would get this wrong. Let me quote myself, if you will.
Ulairi said:


> But he rebelled against the Valar and lead the slaying of Celeborn's people (i can't be bothered to look up the name now), which makes one despise him in some ways


and i said:


> And makes his great in other ways.


As i have said before, the Kinslaying in Alqualonde was bad. Although I could never understood the Teleri indisposition towards the Noldor in the time of the exiles. Olwe's refusal to grant them passage to ME or Elwes refusal to grant them passage to Doriath. (Before the knowledge of the Kinslaying).
To me, what makes Feanaro great is the fact that he took on the impossible. He was a unique elf, he had the will to try and do the next thing, the next challenge, the dare the impossible.
When he rebelled against the Valar, he had to try and defeat Morgoth, even thought it was demeed impossible by the Valar, he just said "What the heck!". How could you succed if you don't even try?

To make myself perfectly clear, I'm insinuating that Feanor rebellion against the Valar was a part of his persona that makes him great. The Kinslaying is an action that proves that Feanor is willing to do anything to achieve his goals. A person who tries to do what he believes in is to me great. Good, well now that's another matter.



> Feanor was an Elf who was driven for power and glory


Can you say revenge.


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## Úlairi (Apr 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Maedhros _
> *
> Grond, I knew you would get this wrong. Let me quote myself, if you will.
> Ulairi said:
> ...



Yes, I could say revenge also Maedhros. I agree with you in what you have said, and rebelling against the Valar is a deed that will not go unforgotten, and it was a brave and headstrong thing to do. The slaughter of innocent Teleri is unacceptable and unforgiveable which is why I despise Feanor. Your insinuation is therefore IMO agreeable. But the Feanor persona is in some other ways not so 'great' as you claim it is. Whenever Feanor did not get his way, he rebelled. The Valar wanted to constrain the Noldor (which I personally don't agree with), and he rebelled. The Teleri did not give him the ships he required so he killed them which dishonors the name of Feanor and his 'persona'. You must agree Maedhros.


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## Maedhros (Apr 18, 2002)

> But the Feanor persona is in some other ways not so 'great' as you claim it is. Whenever Feanor did not get his way, he rebelled. The Valar wanted to constrain the Noldor (which I personally don't agree with), and he rebelled. The Teleri did not give him the ships he required so he killed them which dishonors the name of Feanor and his 'persona'. You must agree Maedhros.


I agree with the fact that Feanor did the wrong thing in killing the Teleri. I think they should have gone the way that Fingolfin did. But the fact that he tried the impossible and ruthless to acomplish his goals makes him admirable. Kind of Machiavelan. To him, the end justifies the means.


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## Beleg Strongbow (Apr 18, 2002)

Yes but it can also make u despise him. What he did was shocking and not fair which stil made other hate him. Somne might admire him like his 7 headstrong but not as powerful sons    . But the rest hated it and without feanors persuasions skills and will it never would have hated. U know in the sil Meadhros didn't really like what happened at that moment.


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## Maedhros (Apr 18, 2002)

Admire him or despise him, but he provides great emotions to the tale.


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## Turgon (Apr 18, 2002)

> By Maedhros
> Admire him or despise him, but he provides great emotions to the tale.


I think that sums up the Great Feanor Debate in one line. Just to add one more thing Maedhros... 
I would have posted this in the Finarfin's Choice thread but it has been closed. How can you possibly blame Finarfin for abandoning his people on the March from Valinor...?! Frankly I'm shocked!!! What about Feanor's treachery at Losgar? Not only was *he* abandoning *his* own people, of whom he was (supposedly) the Leader - he betrayed them with a treachery totally unbecoming of a Noldor Prince (High-King - ahem!). Not only was it treacherous it was a strategic blunder of the first order - totally lacking in foresight (how would the Noldor have fared without the host of Fingolfin?). So hurrah for Finarfin, of Noldor princes most wise...


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## Maedhros (Apr 18, 2002)

> I would have posted this in the Finarfin's Choice thread but it has been closed.


What is wrong. Grond, why was that thread closed.



> How can you possibly blame Finarfin for abandoning his people on the March from Valinor...?! Frankly I'm shocked!!!


Well, he was a direct son of Finwe, and his responsability was to the majority of his people first, not the few who stayed under the protection of the Valar.


> What about Feanor's treachery at Losgar? Not only was he abandoning his own people, of whom he was (supposedly) the Leader - he betrayed them with a treachery totally unbecoming of a Noldor Prince (High-King - ahem!).


I agree, that was not right and damn idiotic. Although they were cursing him.


> Therefore Fëanor halted and the Noldor debated what course they should now take. But they began to suffer anguish from the cold, and the clinging mists through which no gleam of star could pierce; and many repented of the road and began to murmur, especially those that followed Fingolfin, cursing Fëanor, and naming him as the cause of all the woes of the Eldar.





> So hurrah for Finarfin, of Noldor princes most wise...


I would say the Noldor prince more in accord with the Valar and not with the majority of his people.


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## Pippin (Apr 18, 2002)

Looks the thread got some replies.

I assume the Fëanor will still have made the Sils, but those will be stolen by Melkor, afterall he desires them, and the whole bunch of elfs would have united by Fëanor and went to hunt Melkor, so The Sild could have restore to their original pacle. Of Course alll that would have me new interesting stories happen.


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## Úlairi (Apr 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Pippin _
> *Looks the thread got some replies.
> 
> I assume the Fëanor will still have made the Sils, but those will be stolen by Melkor, afterall he desires them, and the whole bunch of elfs would have united by Fëanor and went to hunt Melkor, so The Sild could have restore to their original pacle. Of Course alll that would have me new interesting stories happen. *



Yes, it has taken off Pippin. I also believe that Feanor would have made the Silmarils, but there is a chance that he may have made something different, yet as glorious. In this sense I believe that if Feanor made something other than the Silmarils, he would make something just as grand. And Melkor would still want to steal them, thus angering Feanor and the Noldor, and perhaps the same outcome as in the Silmarillion would still be achievable by Tolkien, but with different happenings and things happening in many different ways.


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## Grond (Apr 18, 2002)

I apologize for the Finarfin's Choice closure. I was housekeeping the thread on 04/16/02 and inadvertently closed it. Sorry about that. It is now reopened.


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## Úlairi (Apr 18, 2002)

Might check it out.


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## Maedhros (Apr 18, 2002)

> For Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and in subtlety alike, of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and a bright flame was in him. The works of wonder for the glory of Arda that he might otherwise have wrought only Manwë might in some measure conceive.


Yep, he would have done something else extraordinary.


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## Úlairi (Apr 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Maedhros _
> *
> Yep, he would have done something else extraordinary. *



Couldn't agree more, and IMO, Melkor, as I have said, probably would have stolen whatever he made out of his greed. Btw, excellent piece of writing Tolkien made on Feanor there. Nice of you to post it Maedhros.


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## Grond (Apr 18, 2002)

I'm sure he would have made something just as wonderful as well. And, just like the Feanor that he is, he would hoard it and be so filled with pride that he would again be corrupted and ruin it for the rest of his race. He would find some other excuse to murder hundreds or thousands of his kin and come to a worthless end on a worthless quest.

Blah, blah, blah.


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## Grond (Apr 18, 2002)

> _written by JRRT_
> *For Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and in subtlety alike, of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and a bright flame was in him. The works of wonder for the glory of Arda that he might otherwise have wrought only Manwë might in some measure conceive.*


It seems that JRRT forgot to include the greatest in pride, the greatest in ego, the greatest in arrogance, the greatest in anger, the greatest maker of hasty decision and the greatest in ambition, as well as the least in forgiveness, the least in compassion for his own people, the least in remorse for unwarranted actions, the least in strategic thinking and the least in humility.


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## Maedhros (Apr 18, 2002)

> he would hoard it and be so filled with pride that he would again be corrupted and ruin it for the rest of his race. He would find some other excuse to murder hundreds or thousands of his kin and come to a worthless end on a worthless quest.


Grond, Grond, Grond. I knew you were going to say something about that.


> It is told that after the flight of Melkor the Valar sat long unmoved upon their thrones in the Ring of Doom; but they were not idle, as Fëanor declared in the folly of his heart. For the Valar may work many things with thought rather than with hands, and without voices in silence they may hold council one with another. Thus they held vigil in the night of Valinor, and their thought passed back beyond Eä and forth to the End; yet neither power nor wisdom assuaged their grief, and the knowing of evil in the hour of its being. And they mourned not more for the death of the Trees than for the marring of Fëanor: of the works of Melkor one of the most evil.





> Now in his heart Melkor most hated the Eldar, both because they were fair and joyful and because in them he saw the reason for the arising of the Valar, and his own downfall.





> But the Noldor took delight in the hidden knowledge that he could reveal to them; and some hearkened to words that it would have been better for them never to have heard. Melkor indeed declared afterwards that Fëanor had learned much art from him in secret, and had been instructed by him in the greatest of all his works; but he lied in his lust and his envy, for none of the Eldalië ever hated Melkor more than Fëanor son of Finwë





> Then Melkor lusted for the Silmarils, and the very memory of their radiance was a gnawing fire in his heart. From that time forth, inflamed by this desire, he sought ever more eagerly how he should destroy Fëanor and end the friendship of the Valar and the Elves; but he dissembled his purposes with cunning, and nothing of his malice could yet be seen in the semblance that he wore.


Feanor was the main object of the lies of Melkor. The Valar had to take some guilt for what happened to Feanor. They freed Melkor and then he "poisoned" the minds of the Noldor, with an emphasis on Feanor.
If Feanor guiltless because of this, No but the Valar had a high responsability for the actions that he took because they didn't have the foresight to prevent this.


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## Grond (Apr 18, 2002)

Is a man sentenced to prison not free once his term is served? Melkor had made atonement for his sins and had agreed to be good. The Valar weren't passing judgement on a man or elf... this was one of their own who was their greatest at one time.

So you want to pass all the blame either to Melkor or the other Vala for Feanor's decision. Sounds like the name of a good thread to me. I'll start it up right now.


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## Úlairi (Apr 18, 2002)

And I'll be there, for sure.



> _Originally posted by Grond_
> *It seems that JRRT forgot to include the greatest in pride, the greatest in ego, the greatest in arrogance, the greatest in anger, the greatest maker of hasty decision and the greatest in ambition, as well as the least in forgiveness, the least in compassion for his own people, the least in remorse for unwarranted actions, the least in strategic thinking and the least in humility.*



Well, I guess I am like that sometimes, after all, I'm only human! Good post Grond, o great hammer of the underworld.


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## Maedhros (Apr 18, 2002)

> So you want to pass all the blame either to Melkor or the other Vala for Feanor's decision. Sounds like the name of a good thread to me. I'll start it up right now.


Let's get it on then. For the record, I didn't say that. I said:


> The Valar had to take some guilt for what happened to Feanor. They freed Melkor and then he "poisoned" the minds of the Noldor, with an emphasis on Feanor.
> If Feanor guiltless because of this, No but the Valar had a high responsability for the actions that he took because they didn't have the foresight to prevent this.


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## Grond (Apr 18, 2002)

True to my word, I have started a new thread entitled "Feanor's Fate" in this very Forum. It is guaranteed to be both insightful and inciteful. Please feel free to visit it and post your thougts and your vote. (It is a poll).


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## Úlairi (Apr 19, 2002)

Will do Grond!


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## Maedhros (Apr 19, 2002)

> Please feel free to visit it and post your thougts and your vote.


It's a shame really that some people don't fight for their convictions.


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## Confusticated (May 4, 2004)

I think this is a fun read, so am just bringing attention to it.


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