# Eowyn or Arwen?



## pointy-eared

aragorn is forever the archetypal of the man, and throughout the bookS i always wondered how it came that he doesn't fall for eowyn. ok arwen has the beauty of the elves and some magic halo around her, she sang in a forest and he fell for here, love at first sight...blabla. 
i know that such courtly love and romaticism is part of the world depicted by tolkien: universal themes picked in ancient writings, everlasting themes that ever reader can understand or pictured (plus perfection mingled with human flaws'...i have always been attracted by what makes man looks more human than kinglike; the fact that aragorn bases his wanderings on his quest for honour and the purification of his blood...i could dwell on it for ages,)
but here is my point: if we skip the romantic love that binds the two great heirs of middle-earth's new age, (in the movie more than ever i couldn't understand and see how strong is their love), i would like to know if you think that the wonderful moments that eowyn and aragorn shared in the two last books are more interesting and rich than aragorn's pursuit of some ideal in arwen's sacrifice, beauty and immortality. 
i have to admit: i have been attracted by the desperate love of eowyn for the great aragorn, and their parting at dawn on barrow downs, before he goes to the paths of the dead.  BUT i couldn't understand how on middle-earth aragorn could not return even a wee bit of her love!! How insensitive and rude... because lady arwen is nice to wait for her man, but eowyn would have been a smashing queen of the dunedains.

and yet, some fate working here, she meets faramir...yeah ok, that's a great chapter...and see! again this kind of romantic scene (that of the meetings and blossoming love between eowyn and faramir in the chapter entitled 'the steward and the king' in the third book) is far better than the reuniting of the royal couple!!
(i have to say that the flawless liv tyler doesn't help me reconciling with the character of arwen...)
well, thanks for your patience and don't be too rude if ever you are pro-arwen, it is my first big thread...


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## Camille

hello, you know I have read the TTT and the ROTK first and when I was at the ending of the ROTK I was really dissapointed because of Aragorn and Arwen!!! While I was reading I always thought that Eowyn and Aragorn finally would ended together, and that aragorn was only waiting to fullfiled his duty before taking care about love, but he had Arwen , 
I think it was Aragorn's fate, and Arwen too they are the third elf/man marriage, but .... I would love to see aragorn and eowyn together...


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## Mayberry

*Eowyn vs. Arwen*

I, too, felt that way, Pointy Eared, until Faramir came on the scene. (What a guy!) 

In the books, Arwen was this incredibly beautiful, but distant Elf maiden who sat home in Rivendell daintily embroidering a flag for her Royal Sweetheart. Arwen was briefly mentioned and sang a song in FOTR, but didn't really appear as a full-bodied character until the very end of the ROTK. Until I read "The Silmirillion," and learned about Arwen's incredible, mortal-marrying ancestor Luthien, I thought of Arwen as pretty window-dressing. I then read the ROTK for the third time, focusing on the bittersweet meeting between Arwen and her father Elrond before her family leaves her and ME for the Western Lands. It is fitting that elvish and mortal blood is mingled for the future of Gondor since the elves must soon leave ME to the care of mortals. 

Before I really understood Arwen, I felt that Eowyn had more lines and motivation in the novels--thus more character. Disguising herself as a man and slaying the Lord of the Nazgul was pretty terrific stuff. I could understand why Eowyn first became infatuated with Aragorn who suddenly appeared at ME's darkest hour, was handsome, brave and slated to be King of Gondor should Sauron be defeated. 

In the movie version, Arwen is this warrior she-elf. I'm a bit afraid that Arwen's character tweeking may take away some of Eowyn's "shield maiden" glory in the film. That is one of my only gripes about the movie. All in all, I enjoyed it. Of course, I liked the books better...


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## Beleg Strongbow

> _Originally posted by Camille _
> *they are the third elf/man marriage, but .... I would love to see aragorn and eowyn together...
> *





High yáll but if you read the apendix at the end about Aragorn and Arwen or U.T you will understand the suffering, hardship and satisfaction they have had in their lives. Being the FOURTH   pairing of man-elf of that line. They were made for each other and therefore should be together. Eowyn has a ,little whim only because of the heirachy and majesty of Aragorn and her annoyance at not being a loud 2 go 2 war and the fact that she marries Faramir justifies that.


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## Wood Elf

Hey,
Now I know why Orlando Bloom origionally wanted the role of Faramir, he gets the chick!  Hehe, you sly dog...


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## mikado

... and instead he gets Gimli!

Mick


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## Grond

I look at the whole Eowyn - Aragorn thing from a totally different perspective. I don't feel that Eowyn ever "truly" loved Aragorn. She loved the "thought" of Aragorn, in all his "High-king of Gondor and Arnor" splendor. He was a legend, as her brother put it, who had arisen out of the grass. He was high and regal. She had seen her entire life reduced to caring for a king rendered to dotage. She saw an avenue to the "highest and most regal" of status. Someone who would take her out of the reek and dotage. 

Now to me.... that just doesn't sound like love. Aragorn, being just about the wisest Man in the world, recognised her affection for what it was and her true feelings reflect why she failed to respond to Aragorn in the Houses of Healing, instead responding to her brother Eomer. It is also only poetic that she should fall for the Man who looked beyond her glory on the field of battle and saw the true "woman" underneath. And it is right and just that she should fall for a Numenorean both like and unlike Aragorn. 

Finally, it just couldn't have happened. Aragorn and Arwen had to be united to tie up all the loose ends of the half-elven and to reunite all the lines. The saddest part of the book was to me the description of Aragorn's passing and Arwen's trail of tears to Lorien where she passed away herself the next season.

It should be noted that Faramir is my favorite character in the book and that is why I feel he should get Eowyn. He deserved her!!!!


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## Elanor2

I agree with Grond. The problem is that the true story of Aragorn and Arwen, their commitment and sacrifices that are the basis of true love and cannot be compared with Eowyn almost school girl-like love for the mature Aragorn, is not clearly explained at the beginning of LOTR. Only at the end it is shown.

Perhaps Tolkien decided to just brush the Aragorn-Arwen relationship at the beginning to give us a surprise at the end. It also adds ambiguity to the Aragorn-Eowyn relatioship. But it is only fully understood after several readings, and with the help of additional material. 

I have the feeling that, in the movie, they are also trying to give more role to Arwen to compensate that. They will not put additional material there, like the appendix, or parts of the SIL, so they have to take the ambiguity off and show the Aragorn-Arwen relationship strong at the beginning, or their love story will not make sense. Pity that they overdid it at the expense of Frodo's role at the ford. That was the real faillure.

Regards. Elanor2


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## Harad

Since you brought up Arwen at the Ford again, I am sorry that this so adversely affected your enjoyment of the movie. For me the movie was a three hour spectacle that showed Frodo's courage many times. I understood that the incident at the Ford of Rivendell was used for another purpose. 
Perhaps you might remember how Frodo in the movie has enuf courage to remove the Ring at Amon Hen without the help of Gandalf, which he needed in the Book. Defying Sauron in compensation for defying the Nazgul--there's a trade that I could accept.


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## Elanor2

Hi Harad,

Do not get me wrong. I enjoyed the movie and I think that, given the limitations of the movie media compared with the book, they did a great job. The whole beginning was beautifully done, and I love the Hobbit village and most of the caracters. The landscape was superb. I like also the idea to give more role to Arwen.

But there are two points in which I really disagree with the director, both related to the casting. Aragorn and Frodo are for me, even more than Gandalf, the pivot figures of the whole book. I love both, specially Frodo. The actors do a great job, but I always pictured them as strong and mature persons, and in the movie they look almost like pimpled troubled adolescents! And instead of compensating their looks by showing their inner strength, what happens? Fordo does not defy the Nazgul at the ford and Aragorn is not even sure if he really wants to be king. What a pity!

That's what really makes me angry. Well. I vented my feelings finally. Let's go back to the original subject. 

Regards. Elanor2


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## Goro Shimura

Regarding Arwen's role...

It would have been more in keeping with the spirit of the book to show Arwen at Rivendell... Perhaps with a single well done exchange of glances... (and a brief conversation between Bilbo and Aragorn)... we could have gotten the idea that *something* might be going on... but that work was to be done before anyone was going to "live happily ever after...." 



I completely agree with Grond and Elanor2 about how the new Arwen ruins the contrast between the Arwen-Aragorn and Eowyn-Aragorn relationships.

Eowyn's now just going to be *another* girl that's "chasing" after this handsome hunk.

Arwen in the movie is indiscrete, aggressive, overly assertive, and she dominates Aragorn and controls their relationship. She comes off as a giddy teenager-- NOT a (what?) thousand year old Queenly austere immortal.

Oh... and Elrond should have commanded the river-- not her!



But to tie this in back into Aragorn-- the new Arwen undermines both his stature, his manliness, and his appearance of self-sacrifice and self-control.

Tolkien would have hated the changes-- no doubt about that!


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## Harad

Elanor2,
Since I disagreed with you about Frodo, I might as well disagree about Aragorn. His reluctance to be King is directly lifted from the book. Even in the book there is no indication that he would have returned to Gondor to claim the kingship, something that had not been done in many generations in his family. He does in fact (according to the Appendix) go to Gondor and serve Denethor's father faithfully as a warrior/stateman but then leaves Gondor to take up his Rangership in the North. Without the finding of the Ring, we presume he would have stayed in the the north, as his father and grandfather had. If you dont like this part of the movie, please blame the book.

The love between Arwen and Aragorn CAN BE a clear contrast with Eowyn, since the former is a well-established relationship as shown in the movie. Eowyn has to be "love-at-first-sight" or infatuation, and may be underlied by her fatalism, perhaps brought on by her uncle, Theoden King's, dotage. Arwen not only has a father who is seeing clearly and effectively, but is allowed a role of importance in life. Eowyn I hope is shown living under those unfortunate circumstances, unable to perform up to her capabilities. Just as PJ effectively contrasted Aragorn and Boromir, I can see him doing the same with Arwen and Eowyn. This remains to be seen.


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## Grond

Harad, what book are you referring to? You certainly know that if Aragorn is unable to claim the Kingship of both Gondor and Arnor, he will never be united with Arwen. One of Elrond's conditions for allowing the marriage is the reestablishment of that realm. "...My son, years come when hope will fade, and beyond them little is clear to me. And now a shadow lies between us. Maybe, it has been appointed so, that by my loss the kingship of Men may be restored. Therefore, though I love you, I say to you: Arwen Undomiel shall not diminish her life's grace for less cause. She shall not be the bride of any Man less than the King of both Gondor and Arnor. To me then even our victory can bring only sorrow nad parting -- but to you hope of joy for a while..." Appendix A, The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen.

Harad, I can assure you that from that moment, when Aragorn was nine and forty years of age, he thought of little else than reuniting the kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor. He had already fought in the armies of both Gondor and Rohan. The reason he didn't press his claim in Gondor is explained in the appendix. His time wasn't right. He was not ready to put the faith of the people of Gondor to the test. He may have been able to get the people to accept him but Denethor was too proud and any assertion of his claim would have caused rebellion and strife in the kingdom; therefore, he waited. 

So, having pulled all this together, I don't quite understand where on Earth, you're coming from with the uncertainty angle on Aragorn. It isn't illustrated in any book I've ever read by Tolkien. Do you have an alternate source?


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## Harad

I am sorry you dont understand the source material that you so profess to love. Its just a shame. If the Ring had not been found, there is no indication that Aragorn would have claimed the Kingship. He would have acted as his father and fathers father before him.


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## Mayberry

*Eowyn's Infatuation*

I agree totally with Grond's assessment of Eowyn's relationship with Aragorn. That is how I preceived her "love" also. What Arwen and Aragorn forged together was love that was tested and true. Same with Faramir and Eowyn. Infatuation is a poor substitute and never fails to disappoint a person in the end.

I know some girls who will go out with any guy just because he is popular or cool, even if he treats them badly. It's an ego/insecurity thing, I guess. These girls tell me that I expect too much in a guy. They saw the movie version of LOTR's and thought that the guys were "cute," but wooden and unreal. Sadly, they are the kind of people who won't read the books so they will fail to see the beauty and depth of Tolkien's mythical romances. 

Not that I'm waiting for the perfect White Knight on a horse... (However, liking horses is a plus!) Hopefully, I will marry a man who is honest, brave and willing to protect me and the freedoms that we share. Above all, I pray that he respects me as a human being and future mother of his children and not just a trophy to show off. (Although I also feel that there is nothing wrong with looking my best for him.) Hmmm. Maybe, I am asking for a White Knight. Well, he doesn't have to be perfect! 

I once read that Tolkien (who was Catholic) felt closest to Luthien and Beran's romance from "The Silmirillion" because of the relationship with his fiance who was a Protestant. I guess that it sounds silly in the PC world of today, but marriages between Catholic and Protestant were rare and frowned upon in his day. Tolkien had to wait and go through a lot of pain before he and his future wife were finally married. From what I have gathered, the Tolkien marriage was a very good (not perfect) one. Just another thing to admire about the author...


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## Isildur's Bane

hmmm both i think.


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## Grond

> _Originally posted by Harad _
> *I am sorry you dont understand the source material that you so profess to love. Its just a shame. If the Ring had not been found, there is no indication that Aragorn would have claimed the Kingship. He would have acted as his father and fathers father before him. *


Apparently you have an opinion that differs from mine. It is apparent to me that Aragorn's early participation in the affairs of both Gondor and Rohan were a precursor to his later return and claim of the Kingship, regardless of any status of the Ring. IMO, there is nothing in the world that would have kept Aragorn from, at the very least, trying to make the claim. In rereading the section, yet again, where Elrond and Aragorn speak of Arwen and the conditions for Aragorn to win her hand, the Ring is not even mentioned. 

My suggestion Harad is that it is you who needs to reread the book. I've noticed entirely too many inconsistencies in your posts of late concerning the texts to believe that you have read them since viewing the movie. You cannot possibly speak of them with any certainty if you haven't recently read them. And, I understand them as I understand them. If you disagree with my conclusions, that is your right. Once again, you might want to look around you and see where the consensus of the forum lies. It appears to be more and more in my corner. Not that you might be wrong.... but maybe, just maybe the rest of us might be right.


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## Harad

The truth is not a popularity contest, nor a democratic vote. Aragorn did his stint in Gondor then left to resume being a Ranger. If the Ring had not been found what would distinguish him from the long line of Northern chiefs that never claimed the kingship of Gondor, despite the fact that it was their right every bit as much as Aragorn's. Before giving advice to others, follow the advice yourself. And not just read the book, but understand it.


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## Grond

Harad, we are once again rendered to the same prior position that you know the book better than all of us. It is you who understands the works and the mind not only of the author but also of all the characters as well. I have presented my evidence. Aragorn would never have been content nor would he have remained a Ranger. He had already been told by Elrond, "Win the hand of my daughter? Get the High-kingship of Middle-earth." The works make it clear (if you ever read them) that it wasn't if Aragorn would have pressed his claim only when he would do it. That is my humble opinion, you are certainly entitled to yours. 

Attacking my position with your own quotes is your normal "tactic" when you don't have any evidence. So I want everyone reading this to realize that Harad has not provided any evidence of his position, just his opinion. He feels his opinion which is substantiated with "nothing" is more informed than most of ours which is based in the writings. 

BTW, he just told all of us that we haven't a clue what we've read or interpreted and that his is the only opinion that matters.


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## HLGStrider

Harad, don't take this personally, but I really agree with Grond here (Not about you having to reread the books. It is always a good idea, but you are entitled to whatever opinion you care to have...).

I think that Aragorn loved Arwen enough that he would never take another mate and he could not have Arwen until he got the kingdoms (As Elrond had said.). He would've eventually made a try for the kingship, if only a desperate on. However, I believe that without the ring being found he would've been unable to gain it. Gondor was content with Stewards. They needed a reason to turn to a king. The ring and war that follows its finding set the stage. 
I also think that both Elrond and Aragorn knew, deep inside, that the time was coming. Elrond had told Aragorn he would not take a wife until his destiny was complete (Not the exactly phrasing, but I am not going to go get the book and dig through the appendixes again...). He hadn't told this to Arathorn or any of Aragorn's ancestors. They knew the time was coming. They could feel it. Whether Aragorn was deeply considering taking the throne at age 20 when he had this conversation with Elrond is irrelevent. (Though at 20 he probably was filled with dillusions of granduer and in love so I imagine he thought he could do it within the next few months...).
I didn't like them saying that Aragorn didn't want the throne. 
I've always had a picture in my mind (That is in no way in the books. I just invented it after reading about Aragorn serving in Gondor) of Aragorn staring at the statues in the hall of kings, reverent and in awe, wondering if he could live up to his ancestors' greatness. 
Aragorn was humble. He did doubt that he had enough strength, but he was determined to try. He wasn't a whimp... 

As for Eowyn, Grond you are all wrong there... Well, mostly wrong. Have you ever been a young girl with a serious crush (I certainly hope you haven't been... That would be weird...). 
I fell in love with Aragorn, for goodness sakes! She couldn't help it. I still love the fellow... Aragorn was handsome. He was tall and noble. He was brave and had helped to rescue her beloved uncle. That he was a king might have come up in the mixture (I believe there is a comment about how "none seemed more kingly or noble to her than the Lord Aragorn...", but it wasn't needed. Perhaps it was an infatuation, but it was also a strong love. You can love a man without receiving any encouragement from him. You can love even if you have no chance. You can love, attributing things to him that aren't there (But with Aragorn most of them really were there.). Eowyn was in love. However, Aragorn was in love with Arwen. He also was about fifty years older than Eowyn... Which she probably didn't realize at the time... He was kind and understanding. She was heart broken that he wasn't more. She went off on a suicide mission and happily found her true love... That is one of the more wonderful things in the book. Don't put Eowyn down. I sympathize with her totally. 
However, you shouldn't put Arwen down either. She had the strength to give up immortality and a father she loved. I love the story of Aragorn and Arwen. It was so beautifully sad. I love all the subtle references to their devotion (In Lothlorien on the hill and a few words to Galadriel, the scene where they are together in Rivendale in the room together and Arwen looks at Frodo...) That could've been done in the movie, but I believe there is more market if you can get a little physical in the relationship (I believe that Aragorn and Arwen were content with occasionally holding hands, half out of respect for Elrond's wishes, half because Aragorn would not want to awaken too much by physical passion, knowing that he might very well fail and she would be forced to go over the sea without him... or worse, stay and watch him wither and grow old as a beaten Ranger of the wild.) and have the female be in charge of things (Sickening... We've spent the last century downgrading masculinity...). 
However, the kiss did look nice on the big screen, and I admit that I had a weakness for the spot myself. 
I liked the movie, but I wish Arwen hadn't push Aragorn around so much... 
I understand Aragorn's response to Eowyn and Eowyn's love for Aragorn. I think it ended up just right.


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## Dhôn-Buri-Dhôn

Whenever we're talking about "what might have happened", we get into territory where there's no absolutely right answer, and it's pretty silly to start banging heads on the basis of who knows better than who what was in the mind of Tolkien or his characters. I won't attempt to do so; I'm sure many of you here know the books better than I do.

In this matter, however, we do know one thing: if Aragorn chose *not* to claim the crown, he was turning his back on both the Kingship and the woman he loved. I find it hard to believe that he would do that.

However, he may never have had to contemplate making any decision along those lines. He was close to Gandalf and knew most of his counsels; and as a true heir of the Númenorean kings he had some gift of foresight. It's likely he could see as well as any of the Wise that the final conflict with Sauron was coming in his lifetime, and its outcome would determine whether he would have his kingdom *and* his beloved, or neither.


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## Grond

Donnie B., I agree with you whole-heartedly. As for you HLGStrider, I kinda agree. 

If Eowyn's love was deep and true and perfect; it wasn't reflected by her actions. She strove with herself the entire time that he was marching to Mordor, watching each day from the Gardens of the House of Healing. Yet, in the end, she realized that her love for him was that of a school girl for a teacher or even a noticed child to her father. I'm not sure it was the passionate love of a lover. Else, why was it so easily denied and a "real" love kindled for Faramir? And, later she asks Aragorn, "Wish me joy, my liege-lord and healer!" And he answered, "I have wished thee joy ever since first I saw thee. It heals my heart to see thee now in bliss." Once again almost as if a daughter asking for a father's blessing. But, again, I make no bones about it, this is my opinion and everyone is invited to disagree. On this subject, I am uncertain grounds.


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## Harad

HGLS,

I agree with much of what you said, but it is a timing issue. Aragorns father Arathorn II died when Aragorn was 2. Arathorn of course never considered becoming King of Gondor. Why? Because like his father and son he was fighting a "war" in the North.

Bilbo finds the Ring when Aragorn was 10. Sauron declared himself openly when Aragorn was 20. At this point Aragorn was told by Elrond who he was and met Arwen. Aragorn went undercover to Gondor from ages 26-49 and then left. He met Arwen immediately after and they plight their troth. However, the Ring was not identified until Aragorn was 87, or 38 years after they plight their troth. What was he doing in the meantime? Fighting a "war" in the North. Would he have married Arwen if he never became King of Gondor? Probably not. But then neither did his father or grandfather. Would he have become King of Gondor if not for the War brought about by the finding of the Ring? I see no evidence of that at all. 

Therefore before the Ring was found, Aragorn was an "exile" living in the North, fighting a "war" in the north, likely to end up like his father before him, and betrothed to Arwen with no guarantee that they would EVER be wed.


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## Grond

Harad, I see where you're coming from but your conclusions fail to explain why, if Aragorn were satisfied to simply be a chieftan in exile in the North, he went to Rohan and Gondor and won reknown there. My opinion is that he was testing the waters. He determined that he could, on his own without asserting his claim to the kingship, win the hearts and souls of the peoples there. It isn't a far step to me, that he would return and do the same, with or without the involvement of the Ring. Wouldn't it make sense that if the Ring had not been found and it appeared that Gondor would be overrun by Sauron that Strider would still have gone to Gondor with all of his Rangers to attempt to stop Sauron's victory?

That's just the way I see it. It would be illogical for Strider to stay in the North and simply wait to be overrun; and, by taking action, he would be at least giving himself a chance for his dreams and hopes to come true.


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## Harad

I believe the "errantry" of Aragorn was an accepted method for men of the Royal line of Numenor to prove their manhoods. What better place to do so then in Gondor which of course held great attraction for the line of ex-Kings? 

If the Ring had never been found, and Sauron did not unleash the RingWraiths and Gondor still maintained the "peace" then there would be no reason, in his lifetime, for Aragorn to rock the boat in Gondor and attempt to "displace" the Stewards.

Aragorn, being as noble as he was, would have forsaken his own personal happiness--ie. marriage to Arwen--in exchange for not usurping the functioning government of Gondor.

Of course when the Ring was found, Sauron declared War, Gondor teetered, and all of this changed.


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## pointy-eared

[I don't feel that Eowyn ever "truly" loved Aragorn. She loved the "thought" of Aragorn, in all his "High-king of Gondor and Arnor" splendor.

yes, that what i thought. thanks.


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## Grond

> _Originally posted by Harad _
> *I believe the "errantry" of Aragorn was an accepted method for men of the Royal line of Numenor to prove their manhoods. What better place to do so then in Gondor which of course held great attraction for the line of ex-Kings?
> 
> If the Ring had never been found, and Sauron did not unleash the RingWraiths and Gondor still maintained the "peace" then there would be no reason, in his lifetime, for Aragorn to rock the boat in Gondor and attempt to "displace" the Stewards.
> 
> Aragorn, being as noble as he was, would have forsaken his own personal happiness--ie. marriage to Arwen--in exchange for not usurping the functioning government of Gondor.
> 
> Of course when the Ring was found, Sauron declared War, Gondor teetered, and all of this changed. *


Interestingly, Tolkien doesn't show Arathorn or Aradur as doing anyting but protecting the North. It is only Aragorn that is documented as making the "erranty" as you describe it. You state that the "errantry" was an accepted method for men of the Royal Line of Numneor to prove their manhoods. Where does that come from? Chapter 48 or Harad's interpretation of Middle-earth or is their some other text where that is shown?


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## Harad

Aragorn, of course, is the only Northern Chief whose life is shown in the Appendix in such detail. What do _you_ think the word "errantry" means, in this application? This is JRRT's word, not Harad's.

Aragorn spent 38 YEARS IN THE NORTH, after his "errantry." He only returned to Gondor when the Ring was identified.

WHAT WAS HE WAITING FOR?????????????????

(He wasnt immortal like the Elves, was he?)


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## HLGStrider

Not immortal, but 200 and something years is nothing to sneeze at.

Well, Grond, perhaps you're right about Eowyn. I'm 17. I am myself in the middle of this sort of desperate crush on a boy who doesn't know I exist (And at 17 the two and a half year difference between our ages seems not much less drastic than the fifty year one between Eowyn and Aragorn.). I just don't think you should be so tough on the girl. She truely believed she loved Aragorn and if he had been responsive, it might've matured to something very beautiful... I have always identified myself with Eowyn (Even to the point of where Aragorn starts to look a lot like the forementioned boy every time I read the book... Except much older...). I believe she did love him. I don't remember saying her love for him was "perfect". I'm just saying it was nothing to sneer at. Crushes of that sort can have a very strong hold. It was like a dream she needed to wake up from. Faramir awakened her.

Harad, I believe Aragorn did this errantry to prepare himself. Whether or not the other heirs did it is beyond us to find out. We do not have Tolkien here. We cannot ask them. Certainly it was never mentioned outright... but it has been a very long time since I have read the appendixes so corrections of this are welcome... 
What would he have done if he didn't get the kingship? The line of Isuldur would've died out with him! No responsible, noble man with any notion of his heridity would've allowed that, and yet he stayed waiting for Arwen. If he had no intention to try for the crown he would've forced himself to tear his heart from her and take another for his bride, if only for the tiresome business of heir siring... You get the idea, of course... That was his duty. Come on! Henry the 8th killed several wifes trying to get a son, and you don't think our noble Aragorn would've at least married for one?


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## Harad

HGLS,
Lines have died out before, including the line of the Kings of Gondor. Dont you think Arwen was worth it? If Aragorn was really so interested in his line, then he should have married before he was 88 years old. How many chances did he have to be killed heirless in his 88 years?

Also, you havent told me why he waited 38 years after leaving Gondor the first time?

Also as far as "200 years" I hope you are not saying that Aragorn knew he had so much time. A better guess would have been the life expectancy of his sires, the 14 Chieftans of the North, who ruled for about 800 years, or less than 60 years each.


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## Evenstar

Yes, I agree that Eowyn's love was like that of a student for their teacher, or for a friend of thier (much) older brother. I'm sure she believed this was true love and I'm sure it was very strong and her love remained strong even after she met Faramir. However with Faramir she realized true romantic love. Also, Aragorn would not have been very noble if he left his true love, Arwen, just to satisfy the love of Eowyn. He remained true to his one love. If Eowyn had gaied Aragorn's love she would not be a tragic heroine. Everyone can sympathise with one loving someone who doesn't love them back. This added depth to her character because she dealt with the pain f being unloved by Aragorn and made her accomplishment greater.


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## HLGStrider

I always assumed he was doing his job, guarding the Shire (Not that that was his only or even official job, but Gandalf thought it very important, and the Rangers kept the area stable...) during that 38 years, waiting for the ring. I hadn't taken the time to calculate the ages of his forefathers (I have never been much for math), so thank you for pointing that out. I knew Aragorn's father died fairly young, fighting. I can't remember whether it was wolves or orcs... but I thought that it was a rare occurance for them to live under a hundred years. Aragorn was certainly in his prime at... 82? I forget... 
His ancestors had made a try at the throne in peace a few generations back, requesting that they gain Gondor. The stewards turned them down. He was not going to get Gondor unless he saved it. You definately have some points, Harad, and there is no way to decide this definately, but I like this side of things better.
There are a few things I thought pointed towards Aragorn planning to take the throne. I figured he was "scoping out" Gondor during his errancy, feeling the mood, seeing where they were strong and week, deciding how he could best serve them. However, his time was not ripe, so he left them after he'd gained honor but before they could give him the honor he deserved. They begged him to return to the city, but he walked off and returned to Lothlorien.
That we have doubts we cannot deny. 
Then in the council of Elrond he asked Boromir if he would have the king return to Gondor. I always felt he was putting himself forward a bit roughly there. The action didn't seem to go along with his calmness, but it does seem to indicate that he was considering the kingship. 
Also take the poem:
From the ashes a fire shall be woken 
The Crownless again shall be king.

or 

Renewed be the blade that was broken?

Bilbo at least thought he was going to make a try at the crown. 

I think I'll give in to experience on the Eowyn deal. I was speaking mor from emotion than sense, but someone needs to be irrational...


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## Harad

HGLS,

I am sorry but for this discussion you can not include the points that occurred AFTER the Ring was identified, i.e. after the "Shadow of the Past" if you are searching for evidence that Aragorn planned to claim the Kingship of Gondor. I agree that once the Ring was found, his path to become King was clear--yes, difficult, but clear. The War of the Ring was declared and Gondor needed him.

If the Ring had not been found, why would Narsil have been reforged, why would he have tried to change the government of Gondor, and, tragically, why would he have been given permission to marry Arwen. Sadly, like his fathers before him, he would have died protecting the North. 

This all goes to support the idea that BEFORE the Ring was found, Aragorn was an "exile" in the North. He still cared deeply for Gondor, hence his anonymous service there, but he was not prepared to take the Kingship and replace the rule of the Stewards.


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## lilhobo

i cant believe we even have this discussion, to many republicans here and not enough monarchists

elven princess are supposed to be revered and cherish, while mere mortal and woman at that should be looked dow upon


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## Beleg Strongbow

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> *I always assumed he was doing his job, guarding the Shire (Not that that was his only or even official job, but Gandalf thought it very important, and the Rangers kept the area stable...) *




Had they not looked after it sauron's servant or saruman's would have found the ring and that would have been disastrous.


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## HLGStrider

Very true, Beleg... I wonder exactly when Gandalf started to suspect the ring to be the one and if he told any body.

I still think there was a certain amount of foresight involved. I just can't swallow the idea that Elrond or Aragorn would allow the line to die out. By the way, it is HLG, not HGL. That has been happening on a lot of threads lately... Groan... 

I thought the poem was written before Bilbo (The author) at least knew of the rings discovery. You are forgetting that Aragorn was very deep into Gandalf's schemes. If anyone knew the ring was discovered besides Gandalf (Or at least that Gandalf suspected it had been.) Aragorn did. That is why I would like to know for sure the date Gandalf involved Aragorn in his search. Aragorn was obviously involved in it, beefing up the Shire guard and capturing Gollum for instance. All of those things were done realitively close to the time of the LotR, however, within the year before it, I think. I'd have to check the time line, and I don't prefer research... Have to do enough of that for school... 

If Aragorn had known of the ring's existance and discovery for some time, whether or not he would've made an attempt to get the throne without it is irrelevant. It's like asking if the colonists would've had a revolution if there hadn't been a tea tax. Who cares? There was one and they had a revolution... I think Aragorn trusted in his fate, which he believed to be getting the throne or dying in the attempt. Arwen certainly felt that was his destiny, anyway. She said he would be "among the great who's valor will destroy it" the shadow, that is, she was making him a standard, etc. Aragorn also seemed to have hope. At his mother's death "Yet there may be light beyond the darkness; and if so, I would have you see it and be glad." I can't imagine what light that would've been if he didn't mean the destruction of Sauron and his own crowning, better days for all men.
Perhaps he felt that Sauron could be destroyed without him gaining the crown, but I don't think he'd except such half measures.
He knew that Arwen was making his standard and never said anything (at least not accounted) like "Uh... honey, there's really no point to that, I'd rather just die in the wild..." 

I think we are looking at this too sensibly. We aren't dealing with sense, we're dealing with romance, fate, love, and honor, things which may not always include sense. A sense of destiny and hope (Aragorn was Estel, after all.) that some day all will fall into place, that some day the ring will be found, and Aragorn will come into his own. That isn't sense. It's heart and hope. Once again, someone needs to be a little irrational...


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## Harad

> someone needs to be a little irrational...



go for it

On the other hand, "discussion" is a rational endeavor. My interest is whether Aragorn could be described as an "exile" before the Ring was found and before he decided to return to Gondor and be King. If you are not interested in this part of the story, ok.


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## HLGStrider

Any king away from his throne could be described as in Exile. I don't think he chose that, however. Exile does not always describe a volontary state...

However, this thread was origenally about whether Eowyn was a better babe than Arwen (To be totally irreverent). I just kind of got into this very serious and weighty subject.

I don't believe all the world to be rational as we understand it. People, or book characters, are the least rational parts of it. Especially since we can't probe into people's characters. I don't think there is enough proof either way... 
." If you are not interested in this part of the story, ok." I don't know what gave you that opinion. I did say it was irrelevant whether or not Aragorn would take the crown if the ring weren't found if he knew the ring was found. It is. You can't deny that it would be a very weird discussion. I don't think Aragorn liked being all alone in the woods. Why wouldn't he have tried for the crown eventually? We can't tell if he was going to or not, but why wouldn't he? Self doubt, perhaps, but you'd think he'd conquer that eventually? Why do you think he didn't want to?

Irrationallity adds a human touch. That is why I find Vulcans to be incredibly annoying characters...


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## Harad

Being a Vulcan, I find it fascinating that you are annoyed.

Aragorn took his Rangership and protection of the North VERY SERIOUSLY just as his 14 forefathers before him did. Aragorn was from the Northern line, therefore his primary responsibility was to the North. As somebody pointed out, if Aragorn hadnt been doing his job, the Shire would probably have been a mess.

The Southern line HAD died out, and Aragorn had a claim to it. But so did his 14 forefathers. Without the precipitating influence of finding and identifying the Ring, Aragorn, IMO, would not have gone to Gondor to be King. This was a form of self-imposed "exile."


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## HLGStrider

Aragorn's line had already attempted to claim the throne once, if you read the appendix, and were turned down. Aragorn needed the trouble the ring caused to succeed. If he went to Gondor and tried to claim the throne without first rescuing Gondor and proclaiming himself in the many seemingly miraculous ways he did he would've been laughed out of town. Gondor was in a fairly desperate state when it accepted him. They'd lost their steward (Which I'm sure was quite shattering...), they were at the edge of complete ruin... Gondor didn't want Aragorn until they needed him, which is why I said he probably wouldn't have succeeded if it hadn't been for the ring. 

Besides, Aragorn's forefathers hadn't been in love with Arwen. Elrond had drawn the line. It was Gondor or no Arwen. I think he would've tried. You're painting a rather hopeless picture of him. What did he have to lose, after all?


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## Harad

HLGS says:



> Aragorn's line had already attempted to claim the throne once, if you read the appendix, and were turned down. Aragorn needed the trouble the ring caused to succeed. If he went to Gondor and tried to claim the throne without first rescuing Gondor and proclaiming himself in the many seemingly miraculous ways he did he would've been laughed out of town. Gondor was in a fairly desperate state when it accepted him. They'd lost their steward (Which I'm sure was quite shattering...), they were at the edge of complete ruin... Gondor didn't want Aragorn until they needed him, which is why I said he probably wouldn't have succeeded if it hadn't been for the ring.



I agree 100%. In fact, its my argument. Thank you.

As far as Arwen is concerned, if their love was enuf, why didnt he go to Gondor right after they pledged their troth 38 years before. Since the average life expectancy of Northern Chieftan was ~60 years and he was already 87 by the War of the Ring, wouldnt it have made more sense for him to go immediately rather than wait for the NECESSARY excuse that the Ring provided.


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## HLGStrider

Isn't anyone else going to join this discussion, because I am eventually going to get sick of it and Harad will win by default... Not that that would be such a bad thing. I don't think this really matters that much. It is a finer detail of the book. 

Are you sure that the average age of the Dunaden chieftens was 60? If it was, why did Aragorn alone live to be 200+ years, and why was he in such good shape at 82?
After he pledged his troth to Arwen, I assumed he was waiting for a sign. Gondor was not in any particular trouble at that point, and he would've been rejected as his predesecors. It would have defied common sense to go. 
Doesn't any one else have any comments (either way) on this subject? 

I don't think Aragorn would've remained in the woods forever. He was to great for that. Besides, where would Middle Earth have been without the Rangers?

My point in the quote you quoted was not that Aragorn didn't want to take the throne unless he really had to (Which was what I thought you were saying. Was I wrong?), but that he was unable to without the ring, which is fairly undenyable, considering the past.

Saying Aragorn had chosen exile from his throne is like saying that the average American has chosen exile from the presidency. The average American doesn't have a chance at the presidency besides the legal right to run. Aragorn didn't have much of a chance at the throne besides his legal right to claim it...


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## rootsradicals

Here's some thing else to think about in regards to Aragorn's love for Arwen and whether or not he wanted to be King. My biggest complaint with the film was how Aragorn seemed to have no self confidence and how they said he didn't want to be King. I think the quote is something like "He has chosen a different path...one of a ranger." That really annoyed me off. Until my father (he's even a bigger tolkien fan than I am) pointed something out. What character in the movie said that about Aragorn?

It was Elrond. 

Remeber Elrond doesn't like Aragorn at all. Arwen is in love with Aragorn and Elrond thinks she's too good for him. That quote in the movie proves that he's bitter towards aragorn about something and the fact that he wouldn't agree to a marriage until Aragorn was King of both Arnor and Gondor proves that he doesn't think Aragorn is worthy of her. He knows that eventually Arwen is going to choose him over immortality. 

The ROTK goes into Arwen's and Elrond's parting before he sailed across the sea and if I remember correctly the book says it wasn't a good parting at all. I got the feeling that Elrond was still angry (not just upset) about her decission.

Once I took into account that it was Elrond that said Aragorn "has chosen a different path" [and doesn't want to be king] made me appreciate the movies adaption of Aragorn more. 

NUFF said.


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## Harad

> Remeber Elrond doesn't like Aragorn at all.



This is not true in either the movie or the book. Aragorn is Elrond's foster son!

HLGS:

We agree on nearly every point now. The reason that the forefathers of Aragorn died so young is that they were killed being rangers. Since Aragorn was such a terrific guy, we both agree, he could have pressed his claim on Gondor, better than the average American could have pressed his claim to be president. However, without the War of the Ring, it would have been messy for Aragorn to do so. Whether he would have or not is a matter for speculation. I say, because he was so noble, he would, like his father, have continued his important job in the North.


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## Grond

> _Originally posted by rootsradicals _
> *Here's some thing else to think about in regards to Aragorn's love for Arwen and whether or not he wanted to be King. My biggest complaint with the film was how Aragorn seemed to have no self confidence and how they said he didn't want to be King. I think the quote is something like "He has chosen a different path...one of a ranger." That really annoyed me off. Until my father (he's even a bigger tolkien fan than I am) pointed something out. What character in the movie said that about Aragorn?
> 
> It was Elrond.
> 
> Remeber Elrond doesn't like Aragorn at all. Arwen is in love with Aragorn and Elrond thinks she's too good for him. That quote in the movie proves that he's bitter towards aragorn about something and the fact that he wouldn't agree to a marriage until Aragorn was King of both Arnor and Gondor proves that he doesn't think Aragorn is worthy of her. He knows that eventually Arwen is going to choose him over immortality.
> 
> The ROTK goes into Arwen's and Elrond's parting before he sailed across the sea and if I remember correctly the book says it wasn't a good parting at all. I got the feeling that Elrond was still angry (not just upset) about her decission.
> 
> Once I took into account that it was Elrond that said Aragorn "has chosen a different path" [and doesn't want to be king] made me appreciate the movies adaption of Aragorn more.
> 
> NUFF said. *


Your opinion is valued in the forum but...... you are talking about a characterization that was in the movie and not necessarily in the book. We are in the book section of the forum and our discussion is not about the movie. Elrond was Aragorn's foster father and loved him very much. He was torn that he would lose his daughter and I'm sure that saddened him. I don't think it made him resent Aragorn, it probably just made him sad about the state of the world that caused his Ring to lose its power and for him to lose his daughter. Had the One Ring never been found, the Eldar in Middle-earth could have continued to fight off the decay of time using their Rings and been happy in Middle-earth. You need to reread the chapter in the Appendix about Arwen and Aragorn. It gives you a much better insight into the relationship of Arwen, Aragorn and Elrond than you'll ever get out of the movie.

Harad, I totally agree with your last post.


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## Harad

The movie had Elrond's "pain" right, but perhaps lost the "affection" aspect because of cut scenes. aragil found a still of Elrond with his hand on Aragorn's shoulder, a scene not in the theatrical release. So I will cut some slack for rootsradicals, not remembering, my own self, if there were any signs of affection between Elrond and Aragorn in the movie. On the other hand one could assume, that since Elrond allowed his daughter to be affianced to Aragorn that either Elrond had some positive feelings for him, or that Elrond was somekinda weird dad.

But does that mean you agree that in the book, before finding the Ring that Aragorn was "self-exiled" from Gondor?


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## Grond

Harad, I've never argued that Aragorn was not a King in exile. That is a fact that is beyond dispute, IMO. I also believe that had he tried to press his claim for Kingship, even after his victory over the Corsairs of Umbar while in his Thorongil guise, he would have had a hard time convincing the people of Gondor. 

Our disagreement is simply one of opinion. I feel that Aragorn would have pressed the claim of Kingship whether the Ring was found or not. It's just that simple to me. He would never have been satisfied with just being a Ranger. He was completely and totally in love with Arwen and I believe that in the end, he would have ridden to Gondor and laid forth his claim for one and only one reason. Love of Arwen.

But that's just me. I can't and won't try to say he would have or would not have. I did that previously on this thread and was wrong to do so. I should have said then and do say now, I think he would have pressed his claim but we'll never know because it wasn't written that way.


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## HLGStrider

Now isn't this much nicer than yelling at each other? Makes me so happy... 

I always thought that Elrond loved Aragorn has a son but wasn't sure about him as a son-in-law. He respected his love for Arwen (Possibly as the inevitable consequence of looking at her...). He may not have like the idea of them marrying, but he liked it better than the line of Isuldur dying off or of his daughter pining for him. He respected his daughters choice. 

I didn't like the movies representation of Elrond's disappointment in Aragorn, and if there was that cut bit, I think it should've stayed. I don't think Elrond would've had more than minimal doubt in the race of men. He was partly of them. They had failed miserably in the past (In Numenor and Isuldur), but he loved Aragorn and trusted him. It could've been worse. Elrond could've objected to Aragorn going on the quest. I wish Aragorn could've been more confident in the movie... Sigh...


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## Elanor2

Hi rootsradicals,

I do not think that Elrond did not like Aragorn. Elrond educated Aragorn since age 2 was his foster father. He did like and love him. What he did not like was the idea of being separated from a beloved daughter for the rest of Time. If Arwen choses Aragorn, she will have to share the fate of humans and will not meet with her father any more.

Elrond's feelings are a bit confusing sometimes. He does say (when Aragorn is 20 and love-sick) that Arwen is better than Aragorn, but it is more a fear reaction than a real thought. If Aragorn is the chosen one to restore the Kingdoms, the Elves will have nothing more to do in ME. Aragorn will rule all, and that makes Aragorn a potentially more powerful man than whatever Elrond ever was or would be. Elrond knows that as well.

Elrond put as a condition for marriage that Aragorn has to become king. However, Elrond has no power to enforce the condition if Aragorn and Arwen refuse it. If all three agree on this it is, from my point of view, an acceptance of their destiny. 
The time is coming, they feel it, and they decide to play it all to one card. If they win, kingdom and marriage for Aragorn and Arwen, exile for Elrond. If they lose, death, destruction, and exile for those few elves who manage to make it. 
It is a brave decision, and one that they all made. It was not imposed by Elrond. Elrond ony said aloud what was written in their destinies (the good alternative and the bad alternative). That's what I believe. That's why I do not think that Aragorn would have ever remained a Ranger for the rest of his days if the ring had not reappeared. Of course, it cannot be proved because the ring did reappear....

The Aragorn of the movie does not give the feeling of a man who knows what his destinies are. He was going to remain a ranger (Impossible, from my point of view) and takes the decision to go south on the spur. Like if he was not sure what his goal was. This is not really the Aragorn of the book, from my point of view.

Regards. Elanor2


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## rootsradicals

Hello All

First I suppose I should start by loosening my language regarding Elrond’s feelings for Aragorn. Since he did raise Aragorn of course Elrond would feel fatherly love for him. However I think that his feelings in regards to Aragorn and Arwen’s relationship are deeper than sadness. I believe he was very bitter.

It seems that since Elrond is a “great elf lord” and all, many of us tend to think he is above felling petty emotions. That’s simply not true. All throughout the Silmarillion elves fall prey to all types of emotions and desires. Hatred and Vengence (Feanor’s sons) Jealousy (Maeglin) and greed (all the elves who keep the silmaril for themselves after Beren retrieved it from Morgoth) are some of the emotions felt and acted upon by the great elves. All of these emotions, for want of a better word, are human. I think that elves are closer to man than we all think.

Elrond’s emotions were all twisted just as ours would be if we were in a similar situation. He loves both of his children (one adopted the other direct offspring) but he knows that Aragorn will not be here forever. Men die. He knows this is going to happen to Aragorn. And he is unconciously angry at Aragorn for that (just as many of us are unconciously angry at our loved ones for dieing even though its not their fault.) However his love for Arwen is stronger because he knows that he is never going to be disappointed by her death. Then along comes Aragorn and changes all that. Now both of his children are going to be ripped from him for all eternity. And who causes this? Not some evil enemy like Sauron or Morgoth, but someone he loves as his own son. This is where the bitterness originates from. It’s tearing him apart just as it would you or I.

I think it’s this bitterness that makes him demand to Aragorn that he reclaim the thrones of the 2 kingdoms before he agrees to a marriage. This is a great parallel with the story Beren and Luthien. Before Beren can marry Luthien, Thingol, her father, says he must first take one of the silmarils form Morgoth himself. This task is outrageously impossible. Just as it seems Aragorn’s task is impossible. However both men were determined to succeed in his goal or die trying. Which brings us back to Aragorn’s exile/desire to be king.

Harad quote: But does that mean you agree that in the book, before finding the Ring that Aragorn was "self-exiled" from Gondor?

Of course Aragorn is “self-exiled” from Gondor. Gondor didn’t even know he existed, how could they exile him? who else would have the power to exile him? However I also believe that he was always planning on claiming the throne one day. His love for Arwen was to strong not to try. He was just biding his time in the North, waiting for the perfect moment to strike. He used the surfacing of the Ring of Power to be that time.

Elanor2: good thoughts about Elrond’s feelings, I agree.

Grond quote: Your opinion is valued in the forum but...... you are talking about a characterization that was in the movie and not necessarily in the book. We are in the book section of the forum and our discussion is not about the movie.

I only started talking about the movie because others were bringing up aspects of the movie’s version of Aragorn. My post mentioned various book sources of Elrond's feelings toward Aragorn as well.


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## Harad

> Of course Aragorn is “self-exiled” from Gondor. Gondor didn’t even know he existed, how could they exile him? who else would have the power to exile him? However I also believe that he always planning on claiming the throne one day. His love for Arwen was to strong not to try. He was just biding his time in the North,waiting for the perfect moment to strike. He used the surfacing of the Ring of Power to be that time.



People have criticised the movie because Elrond says that Aragorn has "chosen exile." Your "of course" is not an "of course" to those people.

I do not believe that he would have claimed the throne of Gondor in the absence of an "excuse" like the War of the Ring (the Hot War not the Cold War). Furthermore I dont think there would have been another valid excuse. Since he was already 87 years old and his 14 ancestors averaged 60 years as Chieftans of the North, mainly due to violent deaths, he was certainly VERY patient until the Fellowship was formed.


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## rootsradicals

As Grond pointed out to us we're talking about the book. I'm fairly certain that the book never used the word "chosen" to describe Aragorn's exile. therefore if people are using that word as a basis for their opinion regarding Aragorn's exile then they are not seeing the whole picture. I would choose "temporarily chosen."

We'll have to disagree about what Aragorn would have done if the Ring never came out. I think that Aragorn would have tried to take the throne of Gondor but would have died trying. His age is irrelavant is think. just becasue he outlived all of his predecessor's doesn't mean he would all of a sudden start acting differently.


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## Harad

Further I think it sells Aragorn's nobility short, if one says he would have wrested the throne of a functioning Gondor with a stable ruling Steward.

Further further, I agree with the poster who that Aragorn and Arwen could have wed in any case, regardless of Elronds wishes. He was a big boy and she was immortal, after all.


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## HLGStrider

I don't set as much by a stable government as you seem to, Harad. The stewards job was to wait for the king. I don't think it would've shook Gondor up to go from a man who ruled with the basic power of a monarch to one who actually had the title. Of course, governments are not my expertise. I can't even vote yet...

I found a rather interesting quote while reading through the "council of Elrond" chapter (I occasionally get these Strider attacks where I want to read about him and go through and pick out my favorites scenes with him in them for perusal... Perusal? Looking over...)

Aragorn while discussing his sword with Boromir 'It has been treasured by his heirs when all other heirlooms were lost; for it was spoken of old among us that it should be made again when the Ring, Isulder's Bane, was found."
Could at be that Isuldur's heirs had a duty to make sure Isuldur's harm had been undone before they could take Isuldur's rightful place... I am mispelling Isulder aren't I? 
That goes against the one attempt at the throne they did make, of course, but perhaps Aragorn felt it was his duty to see the ring and Sauron destroyed first. It is just a thought.


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## Harad

> but perhaps Aragorn felt it was his duty to see the ring and Sauron destroyed first. It is just a thought.



And a good thought. I believe that. In the movie that was nicely done with Arwen saying "You are Isildur's heir, not Isildur himself." (Altho Isildur was no slouch.) Of course to fulfill this duty, the Ring had to have been found.

As far as stable government--Gondor has one from 2050 to 3019, nearly 1000 years under the Stewards. Will you make my day, and agree that is "stable"?


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## Elanor2

Hi Harad,

Yes, I also think that Isildur's Bane had to be found for the Two kingdoms to reunite. Although perhaps not meny people suspected that it referred to the Ring (since all believed it was lost).

But there is more. If I remember correctly, there were several profecies that stated that the King would return and restore the kingdoms, and more at Aragorn's birth that said that HE was the one who would have his chance. Of course, the possibility of defeat and death in the hands of Sauron was there as well. Profecy does not mean that you just have to wait for it to happen.

Aragorn and Arwen could have married, with Elrond's goodwill or not. Galadriel, Arwen's grandmother, encouraged them. But they themselves decided to wait. This, I think, is the meaning of them "rejecting the Shadow", as they did at the same moment as they became bethroded. The refusal to fulfill their love while Sauron was still around. As I said, it was All or Nothing for them.


quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
And a good thought. I believe that. In the movie that was nicely done with Arwen saying "You are Isildur's heir, not Isildur himself." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I think that, in the book, it is Aragorn himself who says that. Aragorn shows Isildur's broken sword to Boromir at Elrond's Council, and Boromir questions if Aragorn is able to use it as effectively as his ancestor. Aragorn says angrily that the dunedain of the north have been fighting against Sauron as much as the men of Gondor in the south, but checkes himself and says "but I am Isildur's heir, not Isildur himself." And adds that he will prove himself to Boromir.

Quite a different meaning as they use the sentence in the movie. There it looks like being Isildur's heir is some kind of curse.

Regards. Elanor2


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## Harad

Thanks Elanor2,

That is a fascinating difference you point out between the meaning of the phrase "..not Isildur himself." That is a "classic" illustration how the movie "deviates" from the book but in a way that many might miss. The deviation is meant to forward PJ's movie "theme" that Aragorn WAS is some respects better than Isildur, something we knew from the book, despite Aragorn's modest statement to the contrary. 

I believe Elanor2 has clinched my argument better than I did:


> Aragorn smiled at him; then he turned to Boromir again. - For my part I forgive your doubt, - he said. - Little do I resemble the figures of Elendil and Isildur as they stand carven in their majesty in the halls of Denethor. I am but the heir of Isildur, not Isildur himself. I have had a
> hard life and a long; and the leagues that lie between here and Gondor are a small part in the count of my journeys. I have crossed many mountains and many rivers, and trodden many plains, even into the far countries of Rhun and Harad where the stars are strange.
> - But my home, such as I have, is in the North. For here the heirs of Valandil have ever dwelt in long line unbroken from father unto son for many generations. Our days have darkened, and we have dwindled; but ever the Sword has passed to a new keeper. And this I will say to you, Boromir, ere I end. Lonely men are we, Rangers of the wild, hunters-but hunters ever of the servants of the Enemy; for they are found in many places, not in Mordor only.
> - If Gondor, Boromir, has been a stalwart tower, we have played another part. Many evil things there are that your strong walls and bright swords do not stay. You know little of the lands beyond your bounds. Peace and freedom, do you say? The North would have known them little but for us. Fear would have destroyed them. But when dark things come from the houseless hills, or creep from sunless woods, they fly from us. What roads would any dare to tread, what safety would there be in quiet lands, or in the homes of simple men at night, if the Dúnedain were asleep, or were all gone into the grave?
> - And yet less thanks have we than you. Travellers scowl at us, and countrymen give us scornful names. "Strider" I am to one fat man who lives within a day's march of foes that would freeze his heart or lay his little town in ruin, if he were not guarded ceaselessly. Yet we would not have it otherwise. If simple folk are free from care and fear, simple they will be, and we must be secret to keep them so. That has been the task of my kindred, while the years have lengthened and the grass has grown.
> - But now the world is changing once again. A new hour comes. Isildur's Bane is found. Battle is at hand. The Sword shall be reforged. I will come to Minas Tirith.


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## HLGStrider

I was not contesting that the government wasn't stable, I was saying that it wouldn't have been much of an obvious change. Denethor held all the power the king would. Perhaps the only change was that a king would've been taken a bit more seriously by foreign powers and the people would've had a royal line to take pride in. As Faramir said Boromir said (Not an exact quote) "How many years does it take for a steward to become a king?" 
Personally, I don't think there would be much of a change if Aragorn came in a time of peace. Since he came in a time of war, there was rooms for radical changes, he had to rebuild the walls and solidify the empire... etc. 
I don't like that Aragorn seemed so hesitant in the movie. There was a sense of granduer and in born pride to him in the book. However, that could be partly interpitation. I would've like to see him give his lecture to Boromir. That is one of my favorite parts...


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## Harad

> I was not contesting that the government wasn't stable, I was saying that it wouldn't have been much of an obvious change.



Its not clear that men like Denethor and Boromir would have given way so easily to the Chief of the Dunedain. Faramir would have been easier to deal with no doubt.

The movie was pushing a different theme: that Aragorn did not trust that he wouldnt fall into the same trap as Isildur. I dont think the book ever mentioned that possiblity.


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## HLGStrider

Frodo practically offered the Ring to Aragorn and had it turned down during the council (Again out of memory) 
"Then it belongs to you and not me at all!" 
"It belongs to neither of us, but it has been deemed that you should hold it for awhile...."

That would be an interesting thread, who Frodo offered the Ring to. In my memory it was Galadriel, Aragorn (if you count that), and Gandalf. 

Perhaps this is the part of the book the movie was trying to redo (in a more dramatic or cinimatically obvious way... I don't know. I have never attempted to make a movie) with the end scene where Aragorn turns down a somewhat more obvious offer.
I don't think Frodo distrusted Aragorn with the Ring after he'd proven himself true on Weathertop. 

I think I'll start the thread on Ring turner downers... Just for the heck of it. It'll be my first thread on this section...


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## Kiwi

*Question? Re Eowyn & Aragorn*

That fateful meeting in the book where Aragorn and Eowyn meet...Is that the first time she has ever laid eyes on him?

It seemed to me she fell pretty suddenly if it was, as the encounter was brief. (Though she was already feeling pretty desperate)

I was pleasantly surprised at this little twist in the tale, being the only (I think) really tortuous love unrequited bit..
Aragorn's meeting with Eowyn was essential in that he was the final straw for her. 
He represented everything she desired and longed to be herself.
Strode in on his horse all battle charged and (probably) grubby from the road, a warrior of stength and courage who didn't need 'permission' to fight his cause. 
It gave her the final determination to go forth and kick it!
(More sheroic than Arwen's needlework and idle wanderings at Rivendell...)


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## HLGStrider

I don't know about that. There is something beautiful and heroic about waiting for Aragorn to return, putting her trust in him and her hope in this nutty scheme Gandalf dreamed up. I think it was rather heroic. 
As for the standard sewing, that was also a very nice touch. 
Not much is said about Arwen in the actual books. Whether this was intentional to make her seem beautiful, mysterious, or pedastal worthy, or just because Tolkien didn't want to pour too much time into a romance and take away from the adventure (as well as Eowyn's wonderful part... beautiful...), I know not...

I don't think Aragorn could've met Eowyn before. The last time he was in that area was before she was born... about ten years before...


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## Kiwi

I hadn't thought about the courage and discipline of character that Arwen needed..v.true.


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## HLGStrider

I wonder how much older than her Eowyn thought Aragorn was... I'm sure she didn't guess the sixty something years...


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## Rhiannon

...and here I am.

Really all of my feelings could be summarized by Grond's excellent posts upthread, but I'll ramble on about them anyway. 

I am very anti-Aragorn/Eowyn. As the story stands in its final form, known and loved by us, it is _not_ a relationship that would have worked, although at one time Tolkien did have them end up together, before Arwen was ever invented. But they don't, because it wouldn't have worked. 
Eowyn's 'love' for Aragorn was based on admiration, respect, gratitude (he was part of 'saving' her beloved uncle), and not a little bit of desparation. Tolkien says several times that Eowyn is valiant, she's brave, she's obviously been trained to ride, trained to fight, but not allowed to really use that training. Her parents died when she was young, her cousin (who would have been a brother figure to her) has recently been slain, her uncle is rapidly deteriorating and falling under the influence of Wormtongue (and therefore Saruman), her brother, her only other family, spends most of his time chasing orcs and getting himself arrested: And here is Eowyn, this brave, spirited woman, and she can't _do_ anything about it. All she can do is serve as a 'dry nurse' to her uncle, because she is trapped by her role as a woman, a maiden, with no outlet for her fear or anger. 
And then here is this man. He is obviously noble, obviously a great warrior (something valued by her culture), who plays a part in freeing her uncle (and her) from Wormtongue. 
_Well_. Eowyn wants freedom, she wants out; as Gandalf says to Eomer, "...You had horses, and deeds of arms, and the free fields; but she, born in the body of a maid, had a spirit and courage at least the match of yours. Yet she was doomed to wait upon an old man, whom she loved as a father, and watch him falling into a mean dishonoured dotage; and her part seemed to her more ignoble than that of the stagg he leand on. Think you that Wormtongue had poison only for Theoden's ears?....My lord, if your sister's love for you, and her will still bent to her duty, had not restrained her lips, you might have heard even such things as these escape them. But who knows what she spoke to the darkness, alone, in the bitter watches of the night, when all her life seemed shrinking, and the walls of her bower closing in about her, a hutch to trammel some wild thing in?" (_The Return of the King_, 'The Houses of Healing') The fact that Eowyn has been made to feel worthless, she seeks greatness, and because she has been made to feel trapped, she seeks freedom. 
And there is all this at the back when the White Lady first looks on Aragorn. 

Aragorn recognizes all this for what it is early on. 

<intermission>

"The woman turned and went slowly into the house. As she passed the doors she turned and looked back. Grave and thoughtful was her glance, as she looked on the king with cool pity in her eyes...Thus Aragorn for the first time in the full light of day beheld Eowyn, lady of Rohan, and thought her fair, fair and cold, like a morning of pale spring that is not yet come to womanhood. And she now was suddenly aware of him: tall heir of kings, wise with many winters, greycloaked, hdiding a power that yet she felt. For a moment still as stone she stood, then turning swiftly she was gone." (_The Two Towers_, 'The King of the Golden Hall') 
There is no denying that Aragorn has charisma oozing out of his pores. And it is his _greatness_ Eowyn loves, not _him_. A relationship between them would not have been on an equal footing, based as it would be on hero-worship on one side, and pity on the other. 
For pity is what Aragorn feels for Eowyn. His loyalty to Arwen is never in doubt for a second (which is one of the main things I hold against the second film, aside from the little fact that they ruined my second favorite character). He recognizes that Eowyn seeks to use him as a way out, and a way to attain greatness. 

When Eowyn realizes that he pities her, she "desires nothing, except a brave death in battle", as Faramir tells her. Eowyn's motives in disguising herself and taking the battle-field are purely selfish, but personally I don't think that negates the bravery involved; Eowyn was also taking her destiny in to her own hands, being proactive, and fighting against the depression that threatened to overwhelm her (and might very well have if she had remained behind). She has already given up her 'love' for Aragorn, although she perhaps didn't know it yet. 

I think one of the most important details in the book that many people fail to see is the fact that in the Houses of Healing, _Eowyn does not wake when Aragorn calls her_. She only wakes when _her brother_ calls to her. Faramir answered to his king, Merry to his friend, but Eowyn did not answer at all. And Eowyn does not truly heal until she accepts Faramir's unconditional love, and realizes that _this_ is what she wanted all along. 
Eowyn was not necassarily 'warlike' by nature; valiant, yes, brave, yes, capable, without a doubt, but not a warrior by inclination, only circumstance. "...She was _not_ herself ambitious in the true political sense. Though not a 'dry nurse' in temper, she was also not really a soldier or 'amazon', but like many brave women was capable of great military gallantry at a crisis." (Letter #244) Eowyn was not 'betraying herself' or 'giving up' or 'surrendering' her true nature when she tells Faramir that she will not longer be a shieldmaiden but a healer; it is only that "the heart of Eowyn changed, or at last she understood it". 

...and that was very long and didn't exactly answer the question because I used it as an excuse to go on about Eowyn, but, well...I'm a little single minded.


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## Elka

Ia havent started reading ROTk cuz im just finishing TT, but so far in the book I prefer Eowyn, but frankly in the movie I prefer Arwen.


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## jlday

Arwen ALL THE WAY!!!!
Woo WOoo go Arwen!!!! 
LOL ^.^


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## Ithilethiel

Arwen hands down. She's a mysterious, mystical lady with great fortitude, ancient wisdom, inherent kindness and crazy wonderful ears. Eowyn is young and fickle. She acts like a schoolgirl. No contest.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner

Ah, Lady Ithilethiel, you've raised another thread from the dark backward and abysm of time -- providing yet another all-too-fatal temptation!

This thread went down some strange paths, but the OP's question was essentially "why couldn't Aragorn return just a wee bit of Eowyn's love?".

Aside from the fact that, given Eowyn's position, and the suffering and trauma she had undergone, the relationship would have been deeply "asymmetrical" to use a current term (a situation I'm sure he recognized), the inescapable fact, the implacable and immovable fact that must be recognized, is that his love was given totally to another.

I'm sure many readers will have had the experience of being in a relationship in which they felt "temptation", or a desire for others; I've had that experience myself.

But I'm equally sure some have had the kind of relationship in which they felt no desire or interest (romantically, I mean) in anyone other than their own SO,as if their "desire" circuit had been switched off, or rather, integrated so fully into that of their partner that no other "signal" could affect it. That too I've experienced.

Aragorn's was clearly the latter.


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## Ithilethiel

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Ah, Lady Ithilethiel, you've raised another thread from the dark backward and abysm of time -- providing yet another all-too-fatal temptation!
> 
> This thread went down some strange paths, but the OP's question was essentially "why couldn't Aragorn return just a wee bit of Eowyn's love?".
> 
> Aside from the fact that, given Eowyn's position, and the suffering and trauma she had undergone, the relationship would have been deeply "asymmetrical" to use a current term (a situation I'm sure he recognized), the inescapable fact, the implacable and immovable fact that must be recognized, is that his love was given totally to another.
> 
> I'm sure many readers will have had the experience of being in a relationship in which they felt "temptation", or a desire for others; I've had that experience myself.
> 
> But I'm equally sure some have had the kind of relationship in which they felt no desire or interest (romantically, I mean) in anyone other than their own SO,as if their "desire" circuit had been switched off, or rather, integrated so fully into that of their partner that no other "signal" could affect it. That too I've experienced.
> 
> Aragorn's was clearly the latter.



Hmm...SeS you seem to like to attribute much of your mischief to CL and me...


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## Squint-eyed Southerner

Well, that's my excuse, anyway!


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## Ithilethiel

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Well, that's my excuse, anyway!



Indeed!


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## Squint-eyed Southerner

It's my story, and I'm sticking with it!


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## CirdanLinweilin

Ithilethiel said:


> Hmm...SeS you seem to like to attribute much of your mischief to CL and me...


You rang?



Cl


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## Ithilethiel

CirdanLinweilin said:


> You rang?
> 
> 
> 
> Cl



Greetings CL!


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## CirdanLinweilin

Ithilethiel said:


> Greetings CL!


_Mae govannen!

_
CL


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## Ithilethiel

CirdanLinweilin said:


> _Mae govannen!
> 
> _
> CL



_Galo Anor erin râd gîn CL!_


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## Halasían

Aragorn was 64 years old when Eowyn was born. He had come and gone from Rohan, having served King Thengel, then Steward Ecthelion II, so it is doubtful they had ever met. 

I think Eowyn's desire to go with Aragorn on the Paths of the Dead was her desire to die more than she was wet for Aragorn.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner

Gulp. I wouldn't describe her in those terms, exactly! (Gosh, we really could do with a "blush" emoji!).

Seriously, though: I don't believe she gave in to suicidal thoughts until she saw Aragorn riding off to what she assumed was certain death.

That seems to entail a contradiction, I know, but her mind was not acting in a completely rational fashion at that point.

I think rather, that Aragorn's "Nay, Lady" signified, in her mind, a rejection, not only of her request to accompany him, but of _her_, and her love.

And that, on top of the years of suffering she'd endured, left her, in her mind, with nothing.

Nothing but an end.


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## Ithilethiel

Halasían said:


> Aragorn was 64 years old when Eowyn was born. He had come and gone from Rohan, having served King Thengel, then Steward Ecthelion II, so it is doubtful they had ever met.
> 
> I think Eowyn's desire to go with Aragorn on the Paths of the Dead was her desire to die more than she was wet for Aragorn.



Telling it like it is and keeping it real!


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## Squint-eyed Southerner

That's one way of looking at it!


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## Ithilethiel

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> That's one way of looking at it!



...

I think there's something to both POVs. It's difficult to truly know what she was thinking so we can only surmise her thoughts, actions and rebuttals of such.

Eowyn is a much more fleshed out character from Arwen as you have shown SeS so I think we feel more comfortable attributing these types of thoughts and feelings to her than we do Arwen.

Arwen by virtue of her elven background, the very moniker of being _Evenstar of the Eldar _and Tolkien's limited characterizations of her cloud her in mystery.

I prefer mystery bc it allows me to stamp my own imaginings upon the character. It leaves me wondering how a character will respond in any given situation. Some find this wanting but I prefer it to pages of explanation and character study. 

But that's just me...

One last thought. Isn't that one thing those of us who prefer the books to the movies are feeling? Jackson's clumsy and sometimes downright destruction of the story? Plus his ways of suppressing not only some of the greatness of Tolkien's writings but also that of our own imaginings?

I offer up my own imagination to Jackson. My imagination wins hands down. Now I know everything can't be transferred accurately from book to film but, _come on. _We all know Jackson could have done much better with his scriptwriting, decisions and handling of many critical scenes.

Okay, I said my piece.


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## Miguel

Niether one. 

Her:


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## Ithilethiel

Miguel said:


> Niether one.
> 
> Her:



I applaud you for your good taste. Pretty and musical!


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## Kinofnerdanel

Ithilethiel said:


> I applaud you for your good taste. Pretty and musical!



Assuming the role of the party killer, but...

https://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Melanie_Carrington


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## CirdanLinweilin

Kinofnerdanel said:


> Assuming the role of the party killer, but...
> 
> https://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Melanie_Carrington



Due to my current security on my Mac, I cannot access the page, what is the gist if you don't me my asking? Thanks



CL


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## Squint-eyed Southerner

Kinofnerdanel is trying to bring Miguel back down to "mundane reality", CL.





Ah, but I'm betting Miguel is thinking of the "movie elf-maid", rather than the actress! 

Sort of like me, with Veronica Lake.
 

Sigh.

Or Jean Harlow, or Joan Blondell, or Priscilla Lane, or, or. . .

I could go on. . .!

C'mon, Kinofnerdanel -- let us boys have our fantasies!


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## Miguel

Wait a minute, what in Eru's name is going on here? lol I don't understand.


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## Deleted member 12094

If you folks really go for movie talk then I suppose it's not about this charming one... ( quoting therefrom):

_"Can't say I fancy Elf-maids, too thin. [...] Although that one is not bad."
"That's not an Elf maid."
"hahahaha"_​


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## CirdanLinweilin

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Kinofnerdanel is trying to bring Miguel back down to "mundane reality", CL.
> 
> View attachment 5528
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, but I'm betting Miguel is thinking of the "movie elf-maid", rather than the actress!
> 
> Sort of like me, with Veronica Lake.
> View attachment 5529
> 
> Sigh.
> 
> Or Jean Harlow, or Joan Blondell, or Priscilla Lane, or, or. . .
> 
> I could go on. . .!
> 
> C'mon, Kinofnerdanel -- let us boys have our fantasies!


Gotcha.


CL


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## Miguel

Is not the same person this is sorcery! xD

Now lets be real here. I'm pretty sure if any man saw this actress, _Melanie, _without the attire...They'll warm up, and QUICK.


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## CirdanLinweilin

Miguel said:


> Is not the same person this is sorcery! xD
> 
> Now lets be real here. I'm pretty sure if any man saw this actress, _Melanie, _without the attire...They'll warm up, and QUICK.


I don't know, I have my own specific type, and I don't really feel a thing.




Or, maybe that's because I am very picky as to who I am attracted to. 



CL


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## Miguel

CirdanLinweilin said:


> I don't know, I have my own specific type, and I don't really feel a thing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or, maybe that's because I am very picky as to who I am attracted to.
> 
> 
> 
> CL



Trust me and believe me when i tell you, that you'll warm up xD You'll be like: "O_h no, now what"_ xD


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## Squint-eyed Southerner

Miguel said:


> Is not the same person this is sorcery! xD



You're right -- like I said: _movie sorcery. _


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## Miguel

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> You're right -- like I said: _movie sorcery. _



CGI?, why?. The whole thing just seems weird to me.


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## CirdanLinweilin

Miguel said:


> Trust me and believe me when i tell you, that you'll warm up xD You'll be like: "O_h no, now what"_ xD




Nope, I wouldn't. I'm not that type of guy, and I am not attracted to her.


Sheesh.


CL


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## Miguel

CirdanLinweilin said:


> Nope, I wouldn't. I'm not that type of guy, and I am not attracted to her.
> 
> 
> Sheesh.
> 
> 
> CL


 
*Alnaitë! *


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## Kinofnerdanel

Merroe said:


> If you folks really go for movie talk then I suppose it's not about this charming one... ( quoting therefrom):
> 
> _"Can't say I fancy Elf-maids, too thin. [...] Although that one is not bad."
> "That's not an Elf maid."
> "hahahaha"_​



Sorry, Squint-eyed Southerner, didn't mean to entirely spoil the fun - and by all means, let us all have our fantasies! Indeed _that one_ is not bad at all


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## Squint-eyed Southerner

It's not like you ladies don't have your own!


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## CirdanLinweilin

I still think Nienna is the most beautiful.



CL





_*Shameless Fan-fic Plug._


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## Kinofnerdanel

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> It's not like you ladies don't have your own!



Must admit that I am but a fallible Secondborn 

For the same reasons I would choose Éowyn as my BFF, but were I a man, I don't think that I could (or would want) to resist the second most beautiful lady in all creation.


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## Ithilethiel

Give me an elf boy any day of the week <sigh>

Just those ears and eyes...and the whole walking on snow stunt...carry me m'lord if you will...


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## Sir Eowyn

I've got it bad for Eowyn (obviously), but to have a wife that doesn't age...


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## Aramarien

This was a very interesting thread to read! Tolkien had said that one reason he didn't introduce more elements of "The Tale of Arwen and Aragorn" was because it would take away of the "hobbit-centric" aspect of the tale.

If one reads the Appendix, there are many allusions to 'foresightedness'. Arathorn was much older than Gilraen, and her father was opposed to the marriage because Arathorn was so much older. But her mother said, ".....if these two are wed now, hope may be born for our people." When Aragorn and his mother went to live with Elrond, he was named Estel, which means "Hope".

When Aragorn meets Arwen for the first time when he twenty and falls in love, Elrond does not tell him at that time that he would not let Arwen marry him unless he is the King of Gondor. Again in this discussion, "the foresight of his kindred came to him", telling Elrond that the choice of the half-elven would be coming soon and Elrond agrees. Furthermore, during this discussion, Elrond tells Aragorn, "You shall have neither wife, nor bind any woman to you in troth, until your time comes and you are found worthy of it." Elrond meant this for ANY wife.

Elrond only said that he would not abide that Arwen would marry any man less than the king of Gondor, but this was after they had plighted their troth.

I feel Aragorn would still try to for the kingdom of Gondor whether or not Isildur's bane was found. There is too much discussion of foresight, or a kind of prophecy that even Elrond, who was foresighted, could see.

Aragorn and Arwen had a mature, deep love that had grown over many years. When Aragorn meets Eowyn, he is over 60 years older than she. He is older, wiser and has seen many things in his time. Not only had he experience, he also knew people. I feel he admired her spirit, her beauty, her loyalty to her people and family. As he got to know her, I feel he cared for her like he cared for so many other people, but also he probably did feel pity for her. He probably felt very badly when he saw how she felt about him. He had a mature love with Arwen and was faithful to her. 

Eowyn saw a heroic, strong, handsome, leader and fell in love. She did not have a mature love, because she really did not know HIM, but what he exuded. Were Eowyn's feelings strong? Of course they were!! As another poster said, I fell in love with Aragorn when I first read the books when I was a teen, and like a teen, fell for Faramir!! 

I don't believe that Eowyn went to war on a suicide mission. I feel she might have gone to war with Theoden whether or not she met Aragorn. She wanted freedom. She wanted to DO something. It was as Gandalf said that she had the spirit and courage as great as her brother's. She spent years waiting on her uncle feeling trapped in a cage. Feeling broken hearted probably made it easier to make the decision to go with the Rohirrim. 

After reading the whole book and the full transformation of Aragorn from the Ranger to King, it made more sense that he would be wed to Arwen than to Eowyn. 

Having said that, I love Eowyn. She is more relatable to the reader than the high born Arwen. She had spirit and courage and wanted to do something. For me one of the highlights of the books was Eowyn standing up to the Witch King of Angmar and slaying the beast and then with the help of Merry and his sword that was found in the barrow downs, work of Westernesse that broke the spell that knit his unseen sinews to the Black Rider's will, that she was able to slay the Leader of the Ringwraiths. 

Finally, Arwen was the best choice for Aragorn, but for me, I choose Eowyn as someone I look up to.


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## Sir Eowyn

I hear you, Aramarien, but I think she did ride off seeking death, CONSCIOUSLY. Her inner spirit wanted something else, wished to blossom, but it seems from the text that all she was thinking when riding off was of glorious death in the Age's great battle. Rohan was doomed (as it seemed), and she was unloved, and to hell with it all, in that moment. But when it came down to it, she didn't truly wish to die. Her whole story's one of the loveliest things for me in Tolkien.

But hey, everybody, don't forget...she's the wife of the Steward, quite near the King. Anything's still possible, with her and Mr Aragorn. I know, I know...people don't have sex in Middle-earth, especially the unlawful kind. But just sayin'.


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## Aramarien

Sir Eowyn, I agree that Eowyn didn't truly wish to die. I think riding off with the thoughts of a possible glorious death in battle, although it may be a suicide mission, is different than deciding to go to battle so she could die.


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## Sir Eowyn

The line's a bit blurry, but yes.


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## Rivendell_librarian

Fascinating thread. As ever Tolkien's complex plot and character lines work. Both Eowyn/Faramir and Arwen/Aragorn fit the overall Middle Earth history as explained in this thread.

But personally no contest it's Eowyn (Miranda Otto) for me though I wouldn't argue with her over who has the remote control.


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## Sir Eowyn

Miranda Otto's a powerhouse actress, as well as a real beauty. In the films it's no contest, indeed.


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