# The different types of Orcs?



## Alatar (Mar 30, 2005)

Okay there has been many threads on this but i'm new so can we get a table on the the different breeds of Orcs.

Heres how i see it we have orcs made by Melkor this is the most broad term.
Then we hhave Uruks first seen in 3rd age(don't have my copy on me)about year 2000?
This lead to the two main breeds Uruk and Sanga at the same time there were the orcs of the mountains who have always been less powerful than Melkors or Saurons (UT disaster of gladden feilds).
Then theres the Uruk-hai made by saruman thesse are blended with men in isengaurd(you all know the story)
then there are "half orcs" which i think are a sort of uruk-hai only more man than most.
This is just my thoughts and i would like some others comments aboutThe different breeds of Orcs as this should be a very intresting thread.


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## Helm (Apr 1, 2005)

Now did Saruman breed orcs and man? In the movie, yes, but in the books, I want referances. Can anyone give me any?


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 2, 2005)

Helm said:


> Now did Saruman breed orcs and man? In the movie, yes, but in the books, I want referances. Can anyone give me any?



Here's the quote:



> _The History of Middle-Earth X: Morgoth's Ring; Myths Transformed_
> Finally, there is a cogent point, though horrible to relate. It became clear in time that undoubted Men could under the domination of Morgoth or his agents in a few generations be reduced almost to the Orc-level of mind and habits; and then they would or could be made to mate with Orcs, producing new breeds, often larger and more cunning. There is no doubt that long afterwards, in the Third Age, Saruman rediscovered this, or learned of it in lore, and in his lust for mastery committed this, his wickedest deed: the interbreeding of Orcs and Men, producing both Men-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile.


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## Wolfshead (Apr 3, 2005)

There are only two kinds of orc - standard orcs and uruk-hai, although apparently it was possible to breed orcs for certain skills, as you would with animals, or plants. Orcs were first bred by Melkor in the First Age, and his Uruk-hai first appeared in (I think) 2475 in the Second Age. Then Saruman worked out how to do it later on.

So there weren't different kinds of orcs that lived round the world, just the one kind until the appearance of the uruk-hai. Much like humans - one race, but regional variations.

And the half-orcs you speak of (Saruman's spies in Bree and the Chief's Men) were likely men who had some uruk blood in them.


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## Mike (Apr 4, 2005)

No, actually, there are _three_ different kind of orcs in LOTR:

1. Regular Orcs ("Goblins")--also known as "Snagas" by Uruk-hai
2. Uruk-hai--also known as "Uruks"...fighting orcs. They are a breed, but of the same species of orc trained to fight.
3. Man-Orcs--Saruman used these. These were the guys at the beginning of TT whi have the broad swords and later are the "ruffians" that attack the Shire.



> And the half-orcs you speak of (Saruman's spies in Bree and the Chief's Men) were likely men who had some uruk blood in them.


 
I always thought them tp be a seperate hybrid...a cross between Dunlendings and Uruk-hai.


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## YayGollum (Apr 5, 2005)

All types of Orcs. The nasssty elves. The worst and most useless and least refined Orcs. 

The first Orcs that Mel came up with. Pretty large and gruesome and quick and stealthy and perceptive and things like that. 

Goblins are the smaller and much later to be developed sort made more for tunneling and being clever and tricksy and handy and things. 

Hobgoblins are the later developement of the more warriorish and terrifying yet stupid sorts. 

You people know of the evils of the hobbits. They are too horrifying to write about. *hides* 

There were also the Uruk-Hai, who were the superly cool and terrifying and mastermindical ideas of Saruman. Half human, half Orc, probably the large and stupid sort of Orc. 

And I guess that you could count the way more mannish types towards the end of that The Lord Of The Rings story. Why not? They were obviously less successful yet still useful and earlier versions of Uruk-Hai.


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## Arthur_Vandelay (Apr 5, 2005)

From TolkienWiki:

[font=Verdana,Geneva,Arial,Helvetica] [font=Verdana,Geneva,Arial,Helvetica][/font]

[/font]


> [font=Verdana,Geneva,Arial,Helvetica][font=Verdana,Geneva,Arial,Helvetica]I think it's important to distinguish between "Uruk-hai" which appear in TT and the "Half-orcs"* which feature in both FR and RK (*as Foster notes, this term is not used in the books). Robert Foster is himself ambivalent on this issue: he suggests that Saruman's "Chief's Men" and his spies in Bree may be Uruk-hai, but then he places the Chief's Men under a separate entry for "Half-orcs" and declares that these are definitely NOT Uruk-hai. Given Tolkien's descriptions of the Chief's Men and the "squint-eyed Southerner" at Bree, the second proposal seems the most likely. [/font]
> 
> [font=Verdana,Geneva,Arial,Helvetica]In his book _The Complete Tolkien Companion_, J. E. A. Tyler equates "Uruk-hai" with "Uruks" (agreeing with Foster), and argues that it was Sauron--not Saruman--who first bred them as a superior strain of Orc, unleashing them on Osgiliath in TA 2475 (see "Appendix A" to LR). It is unclear (though entirely possible) whether Sauron bred them from a mixture of Orcs and Men. In any case, while a great many Uruks/Uruk-hai came into Saruman's service, it is unlikely that he actually succeeded in breeding any _uber_-Orcs of his own. Saruman, though powerful, remained a poor imitator of Sauron and (minus the Ring) much his inferior. His attempts at mingling the races of Uruk-hai and Men, Tyler suggests, resulted in the creation of the degenerate Half-orcs we see in the Shire and Bree: far too weak, dull and disorganized to function as soldiers, but useful as spies and bovver-boys because of their human-like characteristics. [/font]
> 
> [/font]



See also The Origin of Orcs, at the same site; and by "he who must not be named," Real Orcs Don't Do Windows


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## Wolfshead (Apr 6, 2005)

Mike said:


> 3. Man-Orcs--Saruman used these. These were the guys at the beginning of TT whi have the broad swords and later are the "ruffians" that attack the Shire.
> 
> I always thought them tp be a seperate hybrid...a cross between Dunlendings and Uruk-hai.


I would class these two as the same - man/orc hybrids, and therefore neither orc nor human, thus not making them another kind of orc.


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