# Why did Sauron choose Mirkwood?



## gate7ole (Jan 11, 2003)

Sauron’s first appearance after the Last Alliance is at Dol Guldur instead of Mordor- which someone might expect. Why do you think Sauron made such a decision? Did it eventually benefit him or not?


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## Orodreth (Jan 11, 2003)

Where else could he go?


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## Aulë (Jan 12, 2003)

The men of Gondor were still guarding Mordor, but the Witch King had still maintained Dol Guldur. It was a much safer place for Sauron to regain his strength.
It wasn't until the strength of the Gondor army had been weakened through war to the south that Sauron returned to Mordor


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## gate7ole (Jan 12, 2003)

> _posted by Pippin_Took_
> The men of Gondor were still guarding Mordor, but the Witch King had still maintained Dol Guldur. It was a much safer place for Sauron to regain his strength.
> It wasn't until the strength of the Gondor army had been weakened through war to the south that Sauron returned to Mordor


More or less, I agree that Sauron at the time (about 1000 TA) couldn’t enter Mordor since Gondor was still strong. But the Witch-King had never dwelt at Dol Guldur. In fact, the first appearance of the Nazgûl at the Third Age was in 1300, when the Witch-King went to Angmar and then in 2000 when the Nine besieged Minas Morgul.
Sauron actually from the beginning decided to make his stronghold in Mirkwood and assigned this job to himself. And about 300 years later, he sent his chief servant to dwell near the North Kingdom. My wonder is why Mirkwood and not somewhere else, e.g. from the beginning Angmar or Umbar.
The reasons I can think of are:
1. Sauron wanted his stronghold to be close to the elvish realms, since he still considered them his greatest source of danger and wanted to be able to “check” their status.
2. The choice of a forest as his stronghold had the advantage of concealing his true identity, since many evils can be attributed to the forest itself.
3. At the time he might not have been ready for direct action. He wanted to play the role of observer and distant ruler. After 300 years, he decided what would his first action be and assigned it to the Witch-King.
4. The region around Dol Duldur was almost deserted (not sure about this though).


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## Lhunithiliel (Jan 12, 2003)

Looking at the map, I would say Dol Guldur has quite a suitable position - suitable for all the important information to be received on time and suitable, becuase it was near the last "centers" of the High Elves (i.e. "don't avoid your enemy! 'better be closer to them and know what they're doing" ), and suitable becuase Mirkwood was a dense forest and it seems people from those times feared to enter into woods like that - perfect way to hide while still weak, and suitable for spreading out power.... I see it as some "strtegic point", which he even later tended to hold.


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## Arvedui (Jan 13, 2003)

Dol Guldur also is quite near the River Gladden, and the Gladden Fields. Which brings him close to the last known place where the One Ring was.


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## gate7ole (Jan 13, 2003)

Mmm, I don't think it was known then where the One Ring was lost. Saruman who was a scholar in these matters found out about it much later. So, Sauron couldn't have chosen Dol guldur for this reason.


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## jallan (Jan 17, 2003)

Gate7ole posted:


> So, Sauron couldn't have chosen Dol guldur for this reason.


Quite right that Sauron would not have been considering where the Ring was lost, and least as understood by Gandalf in the chapter:_The Shadow of the Past_:


> He believed that the One had perished; that the Elves had destroyed it, as should have been done.


After all, why should Sauron think it was still around. Sauron wakes up, looks around, no new Ring Lord, no-one talking or thinking about the Ring, Three Rings of the Elves apparently active though hidden, Dwarves using their Rings, all with no ruling Ring.

Who would be stupid enough to think that Elves and Men had actually lost the One Ring, and so quickly? Not Sauron. They must have destroyed it.


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## Lhunithiliel (Jan 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jallan _
> *Gate7ole posted:Quite right that Sauron would not have been considering where the Ring was lost, and least as understood by Gandalf in the chapter:The Shadow of the Past:After all, why should Sauron think it was still around. Sauron wakes up, looks around, no new Ring Lord, no-one talking or thinking about the Ring, Three Rings of the Elves apparently active though hidden, Dwarves using their Rings, all with no ruling Ring.
> 
> Who would be stupid enough to think that Elves and Men had actually lost the One Ring, and so quickly? Not Sauron. They must have destroyed it. *


Oh! 
Please! If that be true, Sauron the poor would have never been able to wake up at all! 
I mean that if the Ring had been destroyed he himself would have perished right on the spot..... This is what happened when the Ring was really destroyed! Right?

I am sure Sauron suspected that the Ring eisted somewhere UNdestroyed. He knew not only where and by whom it was kept from him-the Ring's Master.


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## gate7ole (Jan 19, 2003)

> _FOTR: The Shadow of the past_
> He [Sauron] believed that the One had perished; that the Elves had destroyed it, as should have been done. But he knows now that it has not perished, that it has been found.


The above are Gandalf’s words. None, not even Sauron knew what would be the consequences of the destruction of the One Ring. We now know that it would diminish Sauron into a shadow. But at that time, it was not known to anyone. Sauron might suspect it, but in his pride, he might also believe that he was too strong to be diminished, even if the Ring was unmade.


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## Gothmog (Jan 19, 2003)

This may be true but looking at other information that is in the Silmarillion concerning this we find in reference to Saruman.


> He set a watch upon the Gladden Fields; but soon he discovered that the servants of Dol Guldur were searching all the ways of the River in that region. Then he perceived that Sauron also had learned of the manner of Isildur's end, and he grew afraid and withdrew to Isengard and fortified it


later we also find


> ‘It is not needed that the Ring should be found, for while it abides on earth and is not unmade, still the powers that it holds will live, and Sauron will grow and have hope. The might of the Elves and the Elf-friends is less now than of old. Soon he will be too strong for you, even without the Great Ring; for he rules the Nine, and of the Seven he has recovered three. We must strike.’
> To this Curunír now assented, desiring that Sauron should be thrust from Dol Guldur, which was nigh to the River, and should have leisure to search there no longer. Therefore, for the last time, he aided the Council, and they put forth their strength; and they assailed Dol Guldur, and drove Sauron from his hold, and Mirkwood for a brief while was made wholesome again.


 From the Silmarillion: OF THE RINGS OF POWER AND THE THIRD AGE

So can it truly be said that Sauron did not know that the One was not destroyed or when he discoverd the 'manner of Isildur's end'?. We have only Gandalf's view on it and Gandalf himself admits that Saruman knew far more about the Rings of Power and the One especially.


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## gate7ole (Jan 19, 2003)

It is true that Sauron started to search for the One Ring near Gladden Field, but when did this happen? In 2939, according to the Tale of Years. Gandalf entered Dol Guldur and found Thráin in 2850, which is the time (actually a few years earlier) when Sauron started gathering the Great Rings. I guess that he started worrying about the Great Rings, as soon as he understood that the One Ring had not perished. So until ~2800, (that means 1700 years), Sauron was not concerned with the rings.
The above can be understood in more than one ways, but my opinion is that Sauron believed that the One Ring had perished and that this had not a great effect on him. Then, after a long time, he started suspecting that the One was just lost and sought it. Thus, Gandalf was not wrong when he said that “He believed that the One had perished; that the Elves had destroyed it, as should have been done. But he knows now that it has not perished, that it has been found.”


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## Gothmog (Jan 20, 2003)

Gandalf made no great study of the lore of the Rings of Power. This he left mainly to Saruman who he trusted at that time. We cannot be sure when Sauron started searching for the whereabouts of the One as before he could start searching the Gladden fields and the Anduin he would have to find out what happened to Isildur after the war of the Last Alliance.

The fact that Sauron was searching where Isildur had fallen shows that he had then word of where the One was lost. But he would not have just stumbled on that a day or so before his servants started to search there, he probably was looking for it for a long time over a wide area until he had news of where it was last known to be.

I would think it more likely that Sauron knew that the One still existed from the time that he started to rebuild his form. All other information on this matter would (in the context of the books) have come from Sarumans studies. And he was already trying to find the Ring for himself. As for the time that Sauron seemed to be unconcerned with the Rings, it probably took a long time until he had rebuilt enough of his form to start gathering the Rings.


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## jallan (Jan 21, 2003)

Gothmog posted:


> I would think it more likely that Sauron knew that the One still existed from the time that he started to rebuild his form.


This is possible. 

But Gandalf's guess that Sauron for long thought the Ring had been destroyed is, I think, more likely to be Tolkien's guess.

Tolkien might later have changed his mind. but ....


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