# War of Wrath, Numenoreans, and the Last Alliance



## Bard the Bowman (Oct 24, 2011)

All right, I'm sure you all know that it has been said several times that the greatest amassing of forces occurred at the War of Wrath, and the second greatest gathering of forces was at the Last Alliance. Well, my question is this, what about Ar-Pharazon's colossal fleet he assailed the Undying Lands with?

I can accept the War of Wrath was the greatest. They had the Valar, many Maiar (likely hundreds or thousands), the Vanyar, and the Noldor and Edain. No dispute here.

The Last Alliance had the remnant of the Noldor under Gil-galad, some Wood-elves, the dwarves of Khazad-dum, and the Faithful. Let's pretend that this force was greater than the armies of Good in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. However, The Faithful were a minority in Numenor, and Ar-Pharazon assailed Valinor with a massive fleet. 

Are you saying that the remaining Noldor, some Silvan elves, and a couple of dwarves from Moria made up the difference between the Faithful, and the huge army of Numenor? And that would not just be making up the _difference_, it would be making up the difference and more! And do not forget, this armada of Ar-Pharazon's was so powerful that it humbled Sauron, and sent the Valar whimpering to Illuvatar to save them. 

How could the Last Alliance outnumber that?


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## Fingon69 (Jan 3, 2012)

it might refer to a force that actually fought battles, Ar Pharazon's fleet and army never had a chance to fight.

Besides that, although at the end of the second age the elves were greatly disminished, they still represented a formidable force, likely compensating for Numenor's greater numbers.

Finally, it might be that both, the last alliance and the war of wrath's forces were victorious, while Ar Pharazon's forces were not.

I can mention that the army of the Noldor during the siege of Angband (Fingolfin and Fingon in Hitlum, Finrod in Nargothrond, the sons of Feanor in east Beleriand, Angrod and Aegnor in Dorthonion, Turgon in Nevrast and later in Gondolin) were likely a lot more powerful than the last alliance's forces, yet, they never worked as one, since Nargothrond, Doriath and Gondolin mostly stayed out and the rest were rarely coordinated. but also, these forces lost so that might be the criteria, who knows?

a last word, the reference to the war of wrath and last alliance's forces was made by Elrond, that's what he saw, not necessarily all that was. He never saw Numenor's forces and he wasn't born in the time of the elves maximum strenght in Beleriand.


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## Bard the Bowman (Jan 23, 2012)

I can accept the idea that the forces of good in Beleriand were never actually considered as one, but think back to the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. You have Fingon's force of Hithlum, the men of Dor-lomin, 10,000 from Gondolin, Gwindor's company (inconsequential really), The Feanorians, and the men of Brethil, and the sons of Bor and their men. Now we must look at this properly. Turgon and his 10,000 elves greatly uplifted the hearts of the others, so we have to assume that Fingon's force was somewhere between 30 - 40 thousand. Maybe 50. The 7 sons, maybe 20-30 thousand all told. Bor's men, 10 thousand perhaps. So it would be pretty close, but I guess it's within the realm of distinct possibility. Perhaps you're right fingon69; maybe it's because they never actually engaged in combat. It has to be. Think about it. From 9 ships in 100 years comes half of the (2nd) greatest force seen (for the good). Ar-Pharazon must have had 300 ships or more. Probably 500. Or more. 1000 perhaps.


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## Troll (Jan 23, 2012)

Bard the Bowman said:


> All right, I'm sure you all know that it has been said several times that the greatest amassing of forces occurred at the War of Wrath, and the second greatest gathering of forces was at the Last Alliance. Well, my question is this, what about Ar-Pharazon's colossal fleet he assailed the Undying Lands with?
> 
> [...]
> 
> ...


Greatness is not a matter of numbers. Sauron and Morgoth's armies have always been large, but in few instances indeed have they been "great." 

The Vanyar were by far the least numerous of Elfkind; their army necessarily even less so. The Maiar are likely even less plentiful given that there can never be any more Maiar than there were at the founding of Arda. I imagine that the Valar's troops at the War of Wrath were outnumbered many hundreds to one, and yet were victorious because they fought on the side of good.

Without a context in which "greatness" is explicitly defined in this instance, I surmise that cause for which the Great Armament is excluded from the roll of the "greatest" armies assembled is that it was assembled for rebellion and evil, not due to its weakness of arms.


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## Bard the Bowman (Feb 14, 2012)

Troll I relented a bit and decided to read your post. Do my eyes ever hurt now. 

Anyway, if your argument is that the fleet was assembled for evil and rebellion, then think back to Ar-Pharazon's other force, which humbled Sauron. How come that wasn't greater? (rhetorical question). The War of Wrath certainly would have been most numerous as well, because they had the Vanyar armies, the Noldor that stayed in Valinor led by Finarfin, the Maiar (thousands), the Valar, and the Edain. Not to mention the Eagles. 

I think Fingon69 has hit the nail on the head, in the fact that they didn't fight. Now the debate remains whether the forces of good assembled at the Nirnaeth Arnoediad outnumbered the Last Alliance, but it's a much closer call.


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## Calion (Dec 28, 2012)

I think Ar-Pharazon's forces that humbled Sauron were greater than the forces of the Last Alliance. There is no indication that Sauron deemed the war against the Last Alliance to be hopeless (even though he eventually lost), whereas he saw that he clearly had no chance against Ar-Pharazon and didn't even bother to fight. Moreover, Sauron's soldiers were overcome by despair at Ar-Pharazon's forces, while against the Last Alliance they clearly stood their ground. 

I would venture to say that the Great Armament could have matched the forces of either side of the War of Wrath in terms of sheer numbers (though it may not have been more powerful due to its lack of Maiar or dragons). Numenor had more than 3000 years to build up their strength, and they never suffered heavy losses. Since Sauron was allied to them (which removed the need to defend against threats from the east), and Ar-Pharazon launched the attack desperately, we can assume that they would have summoned their entire strength.


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## Miguel (Sep 7, 2018)

I think the Great Armament could win over the Vanyar and the Noldor of Finarfin (Without Eonwe/Other Maiar). However, i'm not sure if they could defeat Morgoth's hosts at the_'Wrath (_No Belryg, No Dragons). Combat wise, Orcs were no match for the Noldor in the 1st age and against Númenoreans is probably about the same story. But, Anfauglith barely being able to contain the amount of Orcs (probably more being breed as the war went on?) leads me to think that this was well beyond the 100.000 count and as much of a mighty force the Armada was, i don't think they would had won a war that took 'The host of the West over 40 years to complete even before the winged Dragons were set lose. This would be a hell of an spectacle to behold tho.

Does Tolkien leave the reader to assume there were some Valar involved in this?, He said that the Valar avoided direct confrontation with Melko to keep the landscapes safe from ruin, yet Beleriand was gone at the end.


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## Alcuin (Oct 1, 2018)

First of all, Tolkien’s characters employ a great deal of hyperbole, both for flattery within the story and for effect. Bombadil and Goldberry both say Bombadil is “Eldest”, and Glorfindel warns that if Sauron re-obtains the Ruling Ring, “Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First.” We would presume that Glorfindel, returned from the Halls of Mandos in Valinor from death in Crissaegrim, very nearly equal in power with Gandalf the Grey, knows what he’s talking about. 

But what of Treebeard? Is he not “the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the Sun upon this Middle-earth,” as Gandalf says? He tells Théoden that “when you speak with him you will hear the speech of the oldest of all living things.” Is Gandalf mistaken? 

Tolkien’s characters are variously the “oldest” or “strongest” or “greatest” or some other most superlative in many different guises. Christopher Tolkien says (though I cannot immediately put my hands on the citation) that his father was given over to this kind of hyperbole. 

So also with the descriptions of the fleets of Aman in the War of Wrath and of fallen Númenóreans and their invasion fleet to Aman. 

Some points, however: 
Both of these great fleets were associated not so with Middle-earth as with _Aman_, with Valinor: one coming, one going.
The Númenórean fleet Ar-Pharazôn assembled to invade Aman was greater in size and power than that he gathered to invade Mordor. For one thing, he had at his disposal not only his own former lands and resources and people, Sauron’s were also given over to his use: it Sauron’s idea, and if it came at the cost of a few, or many!, unfortunate souls taken from his realms, or treasure extracted from his chattel in Middle-earth, what of it? If the Númenóreans, descendants of his enemies the Edain for whom Lúthien humiliated him, were overthrown, as they surely would be in Valinor, then to Sauron it was worth it.
The Valar were forbidden to kill the Children of Ilúvatar or by their might and terror subdue them to their will. This was why they lay down their governance of Arda when Ar-Pharazôn and his King’s Men stepped ashore in Eldamar.
The Fleet of Aman at the end of the First Age was captained and manned by the Teleri, who did not (much) come ashore, and the army it landed was of Maiar, Vanyar, and Noldor. The general who led it was Eönwë, herald of Manwë (formerly “Fionwë,” son of Manwë and Varda in the earlier tellings of the story). The only one of the Valar that accompanied them to Middle-earth was Tulkas, a late arrival to Arda, who came into Arda after the other Valar to offset the physical might of Melkor Morgoth, and came to Middle-earth with the invasion fleet to wrestle Morgoth and bind him once more with the chain Angainor.

To me, this description of the Army of Aman in the War of Wrath, composed of Maiar and the Elves of Valinor accompanied by the most physically powerful Vala is incomparably stronger than the Númenórean Invasion Fleet; _however,_ the Ainu inhabitants of Aman are _not permitted_ to attack and kill or main or disable or overawe the Númenórean invaders. Hence Eru’s intervention and Númenor’s destruction, accompanied by a tsunami that wrecks the Númenórean harbors and colonies along the western coast of Middle-earth: the power of Númenor is broken, and all that remains are the few Faithful of Middle-earth and the nine ships of Elendil and his followers, besides the inland King’s Men who become the Black Númenóreans of the Third Age. 

Nevertheless, I think there can be little doubt that the number of vessels and the size of the army sent by the Númenóreans to Aman was greater than that sent by the Valar to the succor of the Elves and Edain at the end of the First Age. Ar-Pharazôn would still possess reliable records and descriptions of that earlier assemblage, and no doubt he and his commanders consulted those documents as they began their preparations for invasion. It would not do to send a force numerically smaller or, as best as they could determine, less powerful than the expedition sent an age before from Valinor: to do so would be simply to invite defeat on the beaches. The Númenórean force had to be, in the eyes of the deluded Númenóreans, more than capable of overcoming the powers that inhabited Valinor. 

I say the Númenóreans were deluded because, in my opinion, although they could overthrow many of the Maiar – Glorfindel and Ecthelion other Elves had killed Balrogs in Gondolin, Turin defeated and slew the dragon Glaurung, all of which Ar-Pharazôn and his commanders knew; and later Elendil and Gil-galad threw down Sauron himself, who was unhoused and vanquished when Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from his hand – they had no real hope of overcoming the Valar, who helped shape and form Arda itself. 

Now I do believe the Númenóreans could have inflicted tremendous damage in Aman, unhousing many of the Maiar and slaughtering many if not most of the Elves, besides the physical damage they would inflict, _even if_ the Maiar and Elves fought against them. But they never had any realistic hope of overcoming the Valar; and in any case, the Valar were forbidden even to attempt their own defense. *Sauron knew this well:* his whole scheme was a Satanic effort to afflict the Númenóreans whom he hated, the Valar whom he hated, and cause pain to Eru Himself whom he feared and hated. 

Based upon these reflections, I think Ar-Pharazôn’s Aman invasion fleet was undoubtedly the *largest* ever assembled in the First, Second, and Third Ages. The “most powerful” is another matter. 

I wrote an essay on this some years ago, “A Peek at the Last Entry of Sauron’s Journal in Númenor”. Some of you might enjoy it.


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## Miguel (Oct 1, 2018)

That's a nice essay  I love how it starts, that was funny AF xD


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## Spirit of Fire (Jul 4, 2020)

Someone hit the nail on the head earlier. It's all down to Elrond's interpretation, and his experience is limited. The Last Alliance was a massive host, but he would have only witnessed battles after the War of Wrath.

Elrond wasn't alive for any of the five great battles of Beleriand, which arguably would have good hosts greater than the Last Alliance. He would have witnessed some of the battles between Sauron and the elves of Eregion and Lindon, and also when Tar-Minastir sent his fleet. Neither of these good forces, though, would have come close to the Last Alliance.

Elrond also would not have seen the armada of Ar-Pharazon. He wouldn't have seen the force of Lindon, Arnor, Gondor, and Rivendell (led by Glorfindel) when they defeated Angmar. Still, this would have been nowhere near the numbers of the Last Alliance.

However, I think it is likely that the War of Wrath army was probably the largest, followed closely by Ar-Pharazon's armada. The earlier battles of Beleriand probably had hosts close to The Last Alliance, but who knows. I'll also speculate on the numbers of the Last Alliance in my thread Battle Numbers in Lord of the Rings @ https://www.thetolkienforum.com/threads/battle-numbers-in-lord-of-the-rings.29038/


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