# Morgoth and Gothmog???



## Legolas254 (Dec 22, 2002)

Who are Morgoth and Gothmog??? What books are they in?? Hey, this is my first post!!!! Thanks in advance!!!


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## Manwë Súlimo (Dec 22, 2002)

Morgoth is a name for Melkor, a fallen Vala, that was the first Dark Lord during the first age. He is also the master of Sauron and much more powerfull than he. It took the entire army of the Valar and the destruction of Beleriand to overthrow him.

Gothmog is the Lord of the Balrogs and most powerfull of them. He was killed by Ecthelion during the downfall of Gondolin during the First Age.

You can find them in any book about the First Age, Silmarillion, some of the HoME (History of Middle-Earth), UT (Unfinished Tales), LT 1 & 2 (Lost Tales 1 & 2), etc. They are even mentioned in some of LotR and in the appendicies.

Hope this answeres all you questions.


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## Legolas254 (Dec 22, 2002)

Thanks!!! One more question.. what is a Vala??? And is Morgoth(Melkor) a spirit or like a human, elf, dwarf type of person. If these are stupid questions please excuse my newbieness. Thanks!!!


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## Manwë Súlimo (Dec 22, 2002)

the direct definition from the Silmarillion is thus:

Valar- 'Those with Power', 'The Powers' (singular Vala); name given to those great Ainur who entered into Eä at the beginning of Time, and assumed the function of gaurding and governing Arda, Called aso The Great Ones, teh Rulers of Arda, the Lords of the West, the Lords of Valinor.

If you don't know Arda is the Earth. And Melkor was the most powerful of the Valar. And Eä is the world or material Universe; Eä means ' It is' or 'Let it be'.


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## Glomund (Dec 22, 2002)

Gothmog is also the name of the person or creature who took over command of the assault on minas tirith after eowyn killed the lord of the nazgul.


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## Celebthôl (Dec 23, 2002)

i believe he was named "the mouth of Sauron" aswell, just one minor note, Manwe was also the most powerful of the Valar, he was Melkors equal.

Thôl


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## morello13 (Dec 23, 2002)

gothmog in the first age was lord of the balrogs slaind by an elf ir man, maybe tuor, turgon


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## Manwë Súlimo (Dec 23, 2002)

> Manwe was also the most powerful of the Valar, he was Melkors equal.


 No, Manwë had power scarce less than Melkor, but Melkor lost a lot of his power in the dominion of Arda, for he put a great deal of his power into the fabric of Arda as Sauron did in the Ring.


> gothmog in the first age was lord of the balrogs slaind by an elf ir man, maybe tuor, turgon


 Gothmog was slain by Ecthelion, an elf in Gondolin and he was killed in the same battle.


> i believe he was named "the mouth of Sauron" aswell


 The Mouth of Sauron is a black Númenorian who has forgotten his own name over the span of time.


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## Mithlond (Dec 23, 2002)

Yes, Gothmog at the gates of Minas Tirith was certainly not the mouth of Sauron.


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## morello13 (Dec 23, 2002)

who was ecthelion kin of?


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## Manwë Súlimo (Dec 23, 2002)

I don't think it is really stated anywhere who he is a kin of. It is assumed that he is of the Noldor but it is no where stated. If anybody actually has evidence, and not just thinks and assumes, of who he is a kin of I would like to know it.


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## Finduilas (Dec 23, 2002)

> Ecthelion Elf-lord of Gondolin,who in the sack of the city slew and was slain by Gothmog Lord of Balrogs.



I hope that helped.


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## Finduilas (Dec 23, 2002)

Oh,I'm sorry I thought I read king of.Well,English isn't my first language...


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## Confusticated (Dec 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Manwë Súlimo _
> *I don't think it is really stated anywhere who he is a kin of. It is assumed that he is of the Noldor but it is no where stated. If anybody actually has evidence, and not just thinks and assumes, of who he is a kin of I would like to know it. *


Right off hand I do not recall anything in The Silmarillion that states that Ecthelion was a Noldo, but that doesn't mean that it isn't in there.
However, I do recall that in BoLT2- _The Fall of Gondolin_ he is named as a gnome, which was the word for Noldor at the time that was written.
If I recall correctly a specific mention: "Fair gnome of the fountain" at one point.


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## Manwë Súlimo (Dec 23, 2002)

Yeah I guess you could count that, but so much is different from BOLT to UT, Sil, and LOTR it is hard to know what to take and what not to.


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## Celebthôl (Dec 24, 2002)

I always presumed that the Gothmog at the morannon was named the mouth of Sauron, i guess i read it wrong N/M ill have to read it again oh well, ill enjoy it  

Thôl


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## Rúmil (Dec 24, 2002)

No, they were two different prople; Gothmog was the lieutenant of Morgul, MOS was the lieutenant of _Barad-Dûr_.


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## Celebthôl (Dec 24, 2002)

oooooooooooohhhh, i gues i thought they were the same person/being then! oh thanx for clearing that up!

Thôl


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