# What is Turin's fate after the war of wrath?



## Turin_Turambar (Jun 27, 2021)

According to the last written texts, Turin fights in the War of Wrath and kills the Ancalagon with Earendil. So what happens to Turin after this battle until the Dagor Dagorath prophecy? Where is turin kept? what does turin do until dagor dagorath?


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## Erestor Arcamen (Jun 27, 2021)

One thought is that the spirits of men reside in Mandos's halls too, just not with the Elves. If that's the case, then Turin's hanging out there until the end I guess. But Tolkien ever actually confirmed this.



> But Men were more frail, more easily slain by weapon or mischance, and less easily healed; subject to sickness and many ills; and they grew old and died. What may befall their spirits after death the Elves know not. *Some say that they too go to the halls of Mandos; but their place of waiting there is not that of the Elves, and Mandos under Ilúvatar alone save Manwë knows whither they go after the time of recollection in those silent halls beside the Outer Sea. *None have ever come back from the mansions of the dead, save only Beren son of Barahir, whose hand had touched a Silmaril; but he never spoke afterward to mortal Men. The fate of Men after death, maybe, is not in the hands of the Valar, nor was all foretold in the Music of the Ainur.
> 
> Silmarillion, Chapter 12 - Of Men


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## Elthir (Jun 27, 2021)

There's no text/prophecy in which Túrin comes back from the dead to slay Ancalagon _with_ Earendil.

Just to note the distinction here


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## Turin_Turambar (Jun 28, 2021)

Elthir said:


> There's no text/prophecy in which Túrin comes back from the dead to slay Ancalagon _with_ Earendil.
> 
> Just to note the distinction here


I mentioned the prophecy of Aredhel. According to that prophecy, Turin returns from the dead and kills the Ancalagon.


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## Elthir (Jun 28, 2021)

Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> I mentioned the prophecy of Aredhel. According to that prophecy, Turin returns from the dead and kills the Ancalagon.



It's the prophecy of Andreth rather; but anyway, I was responding to this from your opening post:




Ecthelion Of The Fountain said:


> "According to the last written texts, Turin fights in the War of Wrath and kills the Ancalagon with Earendil.


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## Alcuin (Jun 28, 2021)

*Andreth* did not prophesy. She quoted Adanel, her kinswoman by marriage to Belemir of the House of Bëor, whom she was visiting when Finrod arrived. *Aredhel* was the sister of Turgon King of Gondolin, the wife of Eöl the Dark Elf, the smith who forged Anglachel the Black Sword of Turin, and the mother of Maeglin, who betrayed Gondolin to Morgoth. 

Belemir was the grandfather of Emeldir, Beren’s mother; Andreth’s brother was the grandfather of Barahir. So there are strong links to Beren One-handed in the Debate of Finrod and Andreth. (Barahir and Emeldir were already born at this point, and it is _possible_, though definitely not stated, that they overheard this discussion between Finrod and Barahir’s aunt, Andreth, as children.) Adanel was the sister of Hador, Chieftain of the Third House of the Edain and grandfather of Húrin and Huor, great-grandfather of Túrin and Tuor. 

The “prophecy” in her debate with Finrod, Ecthelion, is Andreth’s recitation to Finrod of the “Old Hope” of Men that she had learned from Adanel: that Eru himself would one day enter into Arda and set aright the evils and marring of Melkor Morgoth, a concept that shocked Finrod and one of which Andreth herself was uncertain. 

I believe Andreth died before Túrin was born, though I could be mistaken about this. In any case, she did not prophesy concerning Túrin: in fact, she did not (to my knowledge) prophesy at all, though both she and Adanel were considered “Wise-women” among the Edain. 

The prophecy to which you refer is the Second Prophecy of Mandos. That is the idea that the Valar will grow inattentive so that Morgoth re-enters Arda, the Númenóreans of Ar-Pharazôn who were entombed under the mountains of Valinor in the Akallabêth will be released to fight for Morgoth against the Valar, and Túrin Turambar will return with Anglachel and kill Morgoth in the Dagor Dagorath, the “Battle of Battles” at the end of the world, after which the Ainur would sing together once more. It’s scattered across Tolkien’s writings, and his concept of it changed over time. 

Men, by the way, did not remain in Mandos. They left the Circles of the World and departed Arda. If you recall, Lúthien kissed Beren after he was mortally wounded by Carcharoth the Wolf of Angband and bade him await her in Mandos: his soul refused to depart Arda until she arrived and pled their case to Mandos and Manwë. That the _fëar_, the souls of Men, leave Arda is _canon_ because in the “Tale of Aragorn and Arwen” in Appendix A of _Return of the King_, just before Aragorn dies, he tells the grieving Arwen, “We are not bound for ever to the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory.”


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## Elthir (Jun 29, 2021)

Alcuin said:


> *Andreth* did not prophesy. ( . . . ) The “prophecy” in her debate with Finrod, Ecthelion, is Andreth’s recitation to Finrod of the “Old Hope” of Men that she had learned from Adanel: ( . . . )
> 
> I believe Andreth died before Túrin was born, though I could be mistaken about this. In any case, she did not prophesy concerning Túrin: in fact, she did not (to my knowledge) prophesy at all, though both she and Adanel were considered “Wise-women” among the Edain.



You're thinking of the _Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth/Tale of Adanel_ here . . .

. . . but Andreth's prophecy about Túrin is found in an author's note to _The Problem of Ros_ (note 17).

🐾


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## Turin_Turambar (Jun 29, 2021)

Alcuin said:


> *Andreth* did not prophesy. She quoted Adanel, her kinswoman by marriage to Belemir of the House of Bëor, whom she was visiting when Finrod arrived. *Aredhel* was the sister of Turgon King of Gondolin, the wife of Eöl the Dark Elf, the smith who forged Anglachel the Black Sword of Turin, and the mother of Maeglin, who betrayed Gondolin to Morgoth.
> 
> Belemir was the grandfather of Emeldir, Beren’s mother; Andreth’s brother was the grandfather of Barahir. So there are strong links to Beren One-handed in the Debate of Finrod and Andreth. (Barahir and Emeldir were already born at this point, and it is _possible_, though definitely not stated, that they overheard this discussion between Finrod and Barahir’s aunt, Andreth, as children.) Adanel was the sister of Hador, Chieftain of the Third House of the Edain and grandfather of Húrin and Huor, great-grandfather of Túrin and Tuor.
> 
> ...


The personal pages of both turin and andreth on the Tolkiengateway site say that Turin returned to slay the ancalagon in the war of wrath. Like I said, it's a prophecy. And like other prophecies, its authenticity is a matter of debate.


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## Alcuin (Jun 30, 2021)

I had entirely forgotten the material in footnote 17 to “The Problem of Ros”, one of the very last things Tolkien ever wrote.

At the end of footnote 17, Christopher Tolkien writes,
In this last reappearance of the mysterious and fluctuating idea the prophecy is put into the mouth of Andreth, the Wise-woman of the House of Bëor: Turin will “return from the Dead” before his final departure, and his last deed within the Circles of the World will be the slaying of the Great Dragon, Ancalagon the Black. Andreth prophesies of the Last Battle at the end of the Elder Days (the sense in which the term “Last Battle” is used shortly afterwards in this text…); but in all the early texts (the Quenta…; the Annals of Beleriand…; the Quenta Silmarillion…) it was Eärendil who destroyed Ancalagon.​Moreover, this was written near the end of JRR Tolkien’s life, when much of the material that contradicted things he had already published (such as the origin of Galadriel, her participation in the Rebellion of the Noldor and consequent exile from Valinor) was written. Along with Christopher Tolkien, I note several points on this footnote:
Andreth died no later than the Dagor Bragollach, which took place several years before Túrin was born: It would indeed be remarkable that she possessed such prophetic skill! Moreover, Andreth was likely in her nineties at the time of her demise – again, _before_ the birth of Túrin.
CJRT notes that in all previous tellings of the tale, _Eärendil_ destroyed Ancalagon the Black during the War of Wrath at the end of the First Age. Either Ancalagon returned from the dead, or else Tolkien in his old age intended to completely rewrite the tale of the end of the First Age. Since he was never able to reorganize and reassemble _The Silmarillion_ into publishable form after the publication of _The Lord of the Rings_, I seriously doubt he meant to alter the First Age from the form it had retained for full fifty years beforehand.
The “prophecy” here is “Second Prophecy of Mandos”. The form of the prophecy had from earliest writings (according the this same footnote 17) been that Túrin would return to fight beside Fionwë (> Eönwë) in the Last Battle, in which he would slay Morgoth with the Black Sword (which was broken when he committed suicide upon it), thereby avenging the Children of Húrin. That instead he should slay Ancalagon – a creature already slain by Eärendil some ages earlier – would also be a change in the Second Prophecy of Mandos.
You could argue that Túrin now slays _both_ Morgoth _and_ a resurrected/reconstituted Ancalagon. But I think the better explanation is that this late writing is, like the many late ponderings of the origins of Galadriel, not in alignment with the rest of Tolkien’s legendarium. 

I have mentioned before that there is disagreement on what should be accepted as the “main line” of Tolkien’s mythology. There are three positions:
What Tolkien wrote last is correct.
What Tolkien published himself during his lifetime is correct.
What Tolkien wrote that fits best with what he published himself during his lifetime is correct.
Position #2 is the “canon” position. For further extension of the mythos, I am in favor of position #3. 

I do not believe this “prophecy” that Túrin returns from the dead and kills Ancalagon the Black (a second time) fits well with the rest of the mythos. I do not doubt its “authenticity” – I’ve no doubt JRR Tolkien wrote it. I just don’t believe it is a good fit with the rest of the material he wrote. But if anyone is inclined to accept it, I think that is a matter of personal preference, even if I also consider it a subpar position.


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## Elthir (Jul 1, 2021)

Alcuin said:


> Along with Christopher Tolkien, I note several points on this footnote:
> 
> Andreth died no later than the Dagor Bragollach, which took place several years before Túrin was born: It would indeed be remarkable that she possessed such prophetic skill!



But isn't prophecy already remarkably predicting the future?

And for clarity perhaps, Christopher Tolkien does not raise this point in note 17 (or anywhere that I recall at the moment) -- as I assume you're raising this as a possible objection, in some measure anyway.




Alcuin said:


> CJRT notes that in all previous tellings of the tale, _Eärendil_ destroyed Ancalagon the Black during the War of Wrath at the end of the First Age. Either Ancalagon returned from the dead, or else Tolkien in his old age intended to completely rewrite the tale of the end of the First Age.



Well, at least the bit about Earendil destroying Ancalagon only constitutes one line . . . but generally speaking, I think it's very likely that JRRT at least intended to rewrite the end of _Quenta Silmarillion._

Christopher Tolkien warns that the cursory corrections made in the 1950s do not necessarily equal final approval of content. And he found it *"remarkable"* -- and not easy to interpret -- that his father (with these cursory corrections) at least appeared to treat this section of QS as requiring *"only minor and particular revision" *at this later time.

Remarkable if so . . . and so (as I read it) not remarkable, then, in Christopher Tolkien's opinion, if his father intended to do a fuller revision to the end of QS -- which fits his warning, as I call it.



Alcuin said:


> The “prophecy” here is “Second Prophecy of Mandos”. ( . . . ) That instead he should slay Ancalagon – a creature already slain by Eärendil some ages earlier – would also be a change in the Second Prophecy of Mandos.



But since the Second Prophecy of Mandos was dropped, the prophecy left is Andreth's, which concerns the end of the First Age. Thus there's no Ancalagon involved in an End of Time scenario, and Túrin could still face Morgy according to a different Mannish myth (no longer a prophecy) concerning the End of Days.

Of course we don't know, but it's also possible that Túrin was out of any Mannish Dagor Dagorath scenario.



Alcuin said:


> ( . . . ) 3. What Tolkien wrote that fits best with what he *published* himself during his lifetime is correct.





Alcuin said:


> Position #2 is the “canon” position. For further extension of the mythos, I am in favor of position #3.



Okay but if you favor position 3, how is Andreth's prophecy not a good fit with what Tolkien himself published?

🐾


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## Alcuin (Jul 1, 2021)

Then why should not Tolkien rewrite the history of Galadriel? Because it was already published? But he was still alive when he began his effort, and he could have rewritten the pertinent passages of _Lord of the Rings_ and _Road Goes Ever On_. After all, he extensively rewrote “Riddles in the Dark” in _The Hobbit_ in order to accommodate _Lord of the Rings_. You are essentially taking this position, Elthir. Had the man lived and published for another ten or twenty years, that might have been possible; but he did not. 

There can be no doubt that Tolkien _was_ attempting to rewrite and publish the _Silmarillion_ material. But it was too great a task: the main action of _Lord of the Rings_ covers six months, from September (when Frodo leaves Bag End) to March (when the Ring is destroyed). Tolkien wanted this kind of detailed material not for six months, but for many incidents over many centuries. The interlacing details were more than he could work out, and he died before he could complete even the first part, I think. Christopher Tolkien did not attempt this but once when with Guy Gavriel Kay he wrote _Silmarillion_. After that, CJRT published his father’s completed or mostly-completed stories (_Unfinished Tales_) and his father’s voluminous notes (_History of Middle-earth_), throughout which he pointed out inconsistencies and changes. He did attempt, at the end of his life, to relate his father’s Three Great Tales of the First Age, _Children of Húrin_, _Beren and Lúthien_, and _Fall of Gondolin_, but in every case, he continued his practice of detailing the differences and changes in the various versions of the stories. 

Moreover, I’ve reread footnote 17 to “Problem of Ros”, and it isn’t clear to me that JRRT intended these changes in the fate of Túrin to occur at the end of the world or *at the end of the First Age.* In other words, he seems to have intended for Túrin to accompany the Host of the West from Valinor and kill Ancalagon the Dragon instead of Eärendil. Look carefully at the passage, Elthir, and see if that is not the case, or at least might not be the case.


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## Elthir (Jul 1, 2021)

Alcuin said:


> Then why should not Tolkien rewrite the history of Galadriel? Because it was already published?
> But he was still alive when he began his effort, and he could have rewritten the pertinent passages of _Lord of the Rings_ and _Road Goes Ever On_. ( . . . ). You are essentially taking this position, Elthir. Had the man lived and published for another ten or twenty years, that might have been possible; but he did not.



My opinion that Tolkien intended to more fully rewrite/update the end of QS hails in part from Christopher Tolkien, but more generally speaking, I think Tolkien intended to update plenty of things.
But (and not that you said otherwise) that seems hardly controversial, and I would guess such a statement is widely agreed upon.

Don't you agree? 

Tolkien could have done what you suggest, but we can't know for certain that he would have. And for obvious reasons he didn't. What we do know is that Andreth's prophecy appears in a late text, and 
as far as slaying Ancalagon goes, it looks like a revision of an earlier idea.

In my opinion if JRRT alters already published text he takes the risk of undermining the Subcreated world in the minds of Readers -- not so with private texts however, if Túrin slays Ancalagon in a revision of the older Earendil idea, for example

Moreover (back to Nerwen), there's no text that I'm aware of (so far) illustrating or suggesting that Tolkien was aware he was stepping upon already published description with his late "unstained" Galadriel idea, and to my mind, he* can't* *truly* *consider* making changes to an already published "truth"* if* he doesn't even realize he's introducing an in-story contradiction.

Another question there, in any case.

And while "what ifs" abound, as I explained in another recent thread, in my opinion later text has weight. At the moment I prefer (Galadriel example again) that the Finarfinians took no part in the Kinslaying at Swanhaven, but that said, her defense of the Teleri (a later idea) does not contradict Tolkien-published text.




Alcuin said:


> Moreover, I’ve reread footnote 17 to “Problem of Ros”, and it isn’t clear to me that JRRT intended these changes in the fate of Túrin to occur at the end of the world or *at the end of the First Age.* In other words, he seems to have intended for Túrin to accompany the Host of the West from Valinor and kill Ancalagon the Dragon instead of Eärendil. Look carefully at the passage, Elthir, and see if that is not the case, or at least might not be the case.



Christopher Tolkien points out: *"Andreth prophesies of the Last Battle of the Elder Days in the sense in which the term "Last Battle" is used shortly afterwards in this text)."*

And the text itself (JRRT): *"For after the Last Battle and the overthrow of Morgoth, when the Valar gave to Elros and Elrond a choice to belong either to the kin of the Eldar or to the kin of Men, it was Elros who voyaged over sea to Númenor . . ."*

And as the presence of Ancalagon also suggests, it's the War of Wrath. Although we don't know how the end of QS itself was going to be revised if this idea held, I've *guessed* (in a recent thread) that possibly the death of Ancalagon -- _specifically by Túrin's hand_ -- might be purposely absent from
the QS chapter.

That's how I would handle it anyway (unless I think of something I like better), considering that we are dealing with a prophecy about a dead mortal returning. My guess includes leaving Andreth's prophecy to another text entirely, maybe even in some in-story footnote to something.

And then I'd listen intently for reader reactions


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