# Gandalf the White.... DEAD?!



## Calimehtar (Jan 2, 2003)

On a different post, someone was saying that Gandalf the White was actually dead... like a ghost or spirit or something. And they were saying that Gandalf was 2021 years old, and Gandalf the Spirit? was as old as Arda. I'm a little confused. So are they trying to say that the Balrog KILLED Gandalf? or what?


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## Celebthôl (Jan 2, 2003)

Gandalfs body was 2021 years old, his spirit (him) was much older, and yes the balrog killed his body but not his spirit (that is impossible) only the valar can clame (sp) his spirit! and the Valar sent his spirit back to Middle Earth until his task (i.e. the destruction of Sauron, and to get men into power upon ME) was completed! he was the only Istarí left to accomplish this task for the others had faded or gone bad! so that is why and how he came back! (i think he chose the same body so as to be familiar as opposed to a new and different body)!

Thôl


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## Thorin (Jan 2, 2003)

You don't get it by the first reading of LoTR, nor is it blatantly stated, but yes in fact, Gandalf did die and was sent back to Valinor (he is a Maia like Sauron, as are all the wizards) and he was sent back to Middle Earth as Gandalf the White. Gandalf's physical form is around 2000 years old, but being a Maia, he was around since the beginning of ME. Notice that when they called him Gandalf he said, "Yes, Gandalf. That was my name".


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## Celebthôl (Jan 2, 2003)

yeah and then he says, "Gandalf The Grey, that is what they used call me"! "I am Gandalf The White"! This signifies that he is different! and more powerful in the quote "I come back to you now at the turn of the tide"!! i think this means that he has gained the power that was needed off Saruman and that he can know start to muster the world of men and bring about the end of Sauron!!

Thôl


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## Calimehtar (Jan 2, 2003)

Does anyone know WHEN the balrog killed him? Like... did the fall off the bridge kill him, or did the balrog kill him on top of the mountain? But, in the end, Gandalf DID kill the Balrog, right? BTW, that disappoints me... I was hoping that wasnt true.


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## Eriol (Jan 2, 2003)

Didn't he say to Gríma that he "did not pass through fire and death to bicker with the likes of you" or something to that effect? I may be influenced by the movie on that, but I think it is in the book as well.


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## Ghan-buri-ghan (Jan 2, 2003)

Yeah, the answer is what Celebthol said.


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## Celebthôl (Jan 2, 2003)

After Gandalf struck down the Balrog, Gandalf did die, this was due to many things, i.e. the fight with the Balrog the freezing temperature (sp), his general lack off food etc (the battle did go on for quite a number of days), but Gandalf's body finally died on Zirac Zigil where he had finally killed the Balrog!

Thôl


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## Lantarion (Jan 2, 2003)

Gandalf and the Balrog killed eachother, you might say. Gandalf threw the Balrog down from Zirak-zigil, and then he himself ded from his wounds, perhaps. 
But the rest has been answered.


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## BlackCaptain (Jan 2, 2003)

Gandalf killed the Balrog, but it turned fatal for him, like when Eyowen kills me. Yes, I died (king of the Nazgul), but she paid a horrible price, and wouldve died if it wasnt for Aragorn. Had someone been up there to Heal Gandalf, he wouldnt have died either probably, but its a good thing he did, so he could be Gandalf the White. 

And does Gandalf really go to Valinor?!

I thought that he was taken to Lothlorien and healed, and given White clothes...
Yes, im looking at the Appendixes of ROTK now, and he does not go to valinor

From the Appendixes:


> 3019. Janruary 15, The bridge of Kazahd Dum, and the fall of Gandalf. The Company Reached Nimrodel late at night. January 23, Gandalf pursues the Balrog to the peak of Zirak-zigil. January 25, He casts down the Balrog, and passes away. His body lies on the peak. February 14, The Mirror of Galadriel. Gandalf returns to life, and lies in a trance. February 16, Farwell to Lorien.





> February 17, Gwahir bears Gandalf to Lorien.




So there you see, Gandalf does die, but comes back to life, and goes to Lothlorien shortly after the rest of the Fellowship depart. And since the question was, how old is Gandalf?, and this all hapened in 3019, he would be 2019 years old, since two of his years he was Gandalf the White, but Gandalf was also alive for 2021 years, minus a couple weeks (were he was dead). And unless it says in unfinished tales that his spirit went to Valinor while he was dead, then it never happened. But what Celebethol said about the Valar sending his spirit back, Did his spirit go to Valinor? Were does it say that? But thats not the point, the point is he died, came back to life, and went to Lorien



and one question:
Arent Ainur the Valar? or are all Maiar and Valar Ainu? I thought that ONLY the Valar were Ainur, and they were just different names, like Illuvitar and Eru are the same.


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## Brent (Jan 2, 2003)

Maiar are Ainur and yes they all take place in the song that forms the blue print of the World, indeed Eru (Illuvatar) calls Melkor the most mighty of the AINUR. Indeed it may be that there are Ainur who are more powerful than the Valar for the Valar are "the powers" those Ainur who chose to go into the world and not all did - some remained with Eru. Indeed my reading of the term Valar is that it refers to the "powers" or the most powerful of the Ainur in Ea.

"In the begining Eru, the One, who in the Elvish tongue is named Iluvatar, made the Ainuir of his thought; and they made great music before him."
"Then those of the Ainur who desired it arose and entered into the World"
"The Great among these spirits the Elves name the Valar"

That does not mean that beyond the world greater Ainur do not dwell - the tales tell not.

I also understand that Eru makes the world as a physical manifestation of the Song - the Song does not make the World - for Eru alone has the Flame Imperishable from which such things are made.


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## Thorondor_ (May 16, 2005)

Letter #156:



> He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but *Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it,* at the moment of its failure. 'Naked i was sent back - for a time, until my task is done'. Sent back by whom, and whence? *Not by the 'gods'* whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed *'out of thought and time'*.



Gandalf did not get back to Valinor, he went to the big guy himself


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