# Sauron's Army



## Josh (Sep 13, 2017)

Hello guys the reason of this thread is because i wish to understand better Sauron's army. Ive watched the movies. But ive heard that the numbers in the movies and those in the books are different. Is that true?

If so. How many troops did Sauron had in the Third age? 

Was Saruman's army better or bigger than Sauron's?


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## Andy* (Sep 13, 2017)

How you deploy your army ( armies ) and how you utilize the ground / cities you take and hold may be a more accurate way of knowing if one army is "better" than another.
A higher number of troops_ if _not skillfully employed ,_ may_ be defeated by someone with less troops on hand _if _the opposing forces have a superior tactical mindset.

The cause a army fights for, may play a part in which is "better" as well....
Just a couple of thoughts from a former Ranger and Infantryman with a few combat tours.
Andy


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## Josh (Sep 13, 2017)

Andy* said:


> How you deploy your army ( armies ) and how you utilize the ground / cities you take and hold may be more accurate way of knowing if one army is "better" than another.
> A higher number of troops_ if _not skillfully employed ,_ may_ be defeated by someone with less troops on hand _if _the opposing forces have a superior tactical mindset.
> 
> The cause a army fights for, may play a part in which is "better" as well....
> ...



Yeah i know. 

I just wonder. Caude Sauron asked Saruman to build him a mighty army.

I was wondering how mighty Sauron's army is. According to the movies Saruman had 10s of thousands. 

How much do Sauron has?

Do the numbers in the Movies are different to the Book's numbers?


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## Andy* (Sep 13, 2017)

I am not sure that actual numbers are mentioned in the book.
I am re-reading the book , but not at that stage in the story....
As for me I tend to take anything the movies showed with a grain of salt when compared with the book...
My wild guess is that Sauron had the bigger army as he had a longer time to amass troops.
Again just a guess...
Andy


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## Josh (Sep 13, 2017)

Andy* said:


> I am not sure that actual numbers are mentioned in the book.
> I am re-reading the book , but not at that stage in the story....
> As for me I tend to take anything the movies showed with a grain of salt when compared with the book...
> My wild guess is that Sauron had the bigger army as he had a longer time to amass troops.
> ...



Yeah. Thanks.

I would appreciate if you give me some numbers after reading the books. Although it is a guess. I just want to have an idea.


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## Andy* (Sep 13, 2017)

Well I can't promise any numbers.... Tolkien was writing for dramatic effect , not a After Action Report...
The only time I recall actual numbers being mentioned in the book was between Legolas and Gimli bantering back and forth with their respective "tallies" during the battle at Helm's Deep.
Andy


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## Josh (Sep 13, 2017)

Andy* said:


> Well I can't promise any numbers.... Tolkien was writing for dramatic effect , not a After Action Report...
> The only time I recall actual numbers being mentioned in the book was between Legolas and Gimli bantering back and forth with their respective "tallies" during the battle at Helm's Deep.
> Andy



You have read the books that match Jackson's trilogy?


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## Andy* (Sep 13, 2017)

I have read and re-read The Lord of the Rings many times... And I have watched Jackson's version of the same.
I would not say that they "match"... Much of the books and movies are at variance .
Andy


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## Josh (Sep 14, 2017)

Andy* said:


> I have read and re-read The Lord of the Rings many times... And I have watched Jackson's version of the same.
> I would not say that they "match"... Much of the books and movies are at variance .
> Andy



I agree. 

Is just that i wanted to know if there was a major difference in the troops depicted by Jackson in the movies and those in the books.

In the movies we see this massive armies.

Does the same apply for the books?


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## Andy* (Sep 14, 2017)

Yes there are large armies mentioned and "shown" in the books .... Helm's Deep , the siege of Gondor and the Battle at the Gate come to mind off the top of my head.
Also when Sam and Frodo are attempting to sneak into Mordor , large troop movements are mentioned.
Andy


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## Josh (Sep 15, 2017)

Andy* said:


> Yes there are large armies mentioned and "shown" in the books .... Helm's Deep , the siege of Gondor and the Battle at the Gate come to mind off the top of my head.
> Also when Sam and Frodo are attempting to sneak into Mordor , large troop movements are mentioned.
> Andy



Do you think that that the numbers depicted in the movies are less or more than those shown in the books?


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## Andy* (Sep 15, 2017)

Honestly I try not to think about the movies...
I do not like Jackson's vision or interpretation of Tolkien's work.
So it is very difficult for me to say just how Jackson's view of the numbers of combatants compare or contrast to Tolkien's work.
Hazarding a guess ... I would say that Jackson did exaggerate the numbers or make changes to fit his ( Jackson's ) vision.
But again remember that this is a_ guess_ from someone who does not like the films....
I'm sorry but , I don't think I can provide the answer you are looking for.
Andy


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## Josh (Sep 15, 2017)

Andy* said:


> Honestly I try not to think about the movies...
> I do not like Jackson's vision or interpretation of Tolkien's work.
> So it is very difficult for me to say just how Jackson's view of the numbers of combatants compare or contrast to Tolkien's work.
> Hazarding a guess ... I would say that Jackson did exaggerate the numbers or make changes to fit his ( Jackson's ) vision.
> ...




Thanks for your help. Really appreciated.

Is just that i wanted to know. I was participating in this VS forum, and needed to have an idea. 

Jackson said that Sauron had 200K in his army. I wanted to know if that was an exaggeration or he reduced the numbers.

Do you think Saruman's orcs could fight Sauron's?


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## Andy* (Sep 15, 2017)

I suppose Saruman's Orc's could fight Sauron's Orcs... In fact they did fight when "Discussing" just what to do with Merry and Pippin.
If Saruman continued down his path to trying to make a Ring or take the One Ring , then I have no doubt that Sauron would have fought against Saruman ... Just what we need two dark lords fighting over Middle Earth.
Andy


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## Josh (Sep 15, 2017)

Andy* said:


> I suppose Saruman's Orc's could fight Sauron's Orcs... In fact they did fight when "Discussing" just what to do with Merry and Pippin.
> If Saruman continued down his path to trying to make a Ring or take the One Ring , then I have no doubt that Sauron would have fought against Saruman ... Just what we need two dark lords fighting over Middle Earth.
> Andy



Yeah.

But according to troops. Who has more troops? Saruman or Sauron?


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## Andy* (Sep 15, 2017)

I would guess Sauron.... Far more time being the bad guy and more time to amass his army.
Andy


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## Josh (Sep 16, 2017)

Andy* said:


> I would guess Sauron.... Far more time being the bad guy and more time to amass his army.
> Andy



Thanks Andy. Am gonna write another thread. Hope you can participate.


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## Might_of_arnor (Sep 18, 2017)

Well we know at the pelennor fields sauron amassed a force of somewhere between 70,000-200,000 orcs plus the haradrim, rhun peoples and the corsairs of umbair. 

He probably had 50,000 at the black gate at the end of the books. 

It is said that the greatest loss sauron had in the battle for mines tirith was not losing all of his forces but losing his greatest servant, the witch King of angmar. (Read a few times that sauron could quickly amass a bigger force to fight against the free peoples of middle earth, but why would he have such a lowly force at the black gates? Aragorn and his army marched immediately out of Mimas tirith to the black gates, as they know they could not fight another pelennor fields type battle and they knew sauron would summon a larger and more wicked force next time)


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## Azrubêl (Sep 20, 2017)

I think that's a good point, that Sauron "amasses" (or enslaves) large numbers of orcs and men to get them to fight for him, so that it's probably a separate question as to how many orcs he has in Mordor under direct control, as opposed to groups of orcs or men (like Haradrim) that he is able to muster for a great battle like Pelennor. 

My impression is that Sauron's physical strength in the form of armies is basically greater than Saruman's by an order of magnitude at least- that is, if Saruman's strength is 50-100k troops, Sauron's would be more like 500k-1m troops. But I could be wrong!


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## elric (Sep 20, 2017)

Great topic but does it really matter? Im an avid military historian, but in lotr i just needed my imagination to understand that the evil armies were big enough to destroy all other races and civilisation. Very scary at age 11


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