# Religious Properties



## Manwe (Feb 13, 2005)

I was just speculating, which I pride myself on doing often, a thing my mother talked about a while ago. Now I hope nothing has been said about this before but if it has, oh well. Anyway, we were talking about the Lord of the Rings, which is a popular topic at my home, and its impact on the world. She brought up something interesting. What if , a thousand years from now, aliens come upon our planet, which we are now extinct from, and they find copies of the Bible, the Lord of the Rings (including Sil. and Hobbit) and of the Koran which would they think was a history and which a religion.

Would they think that Lord of the Rings was a religion or even a history of our world? Would they disregard the other two as mere fiction stories? What are your ideas?


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## Barliman Butterbur (Feb 13, 2005)

Manwe said:


> I was just speculating, which I pride myself on doing often, a thing my mother talked about a while ago. Now I hope nothing has been said about this before but if it has, oh well. Anyway, we were talking about the Lord of the Rings, which is a popular topic at my home, and its impact on the world. She brought up something interesting. What if, a thousand years from now, aliens come upon our planet, which we are now extinct from, and they find copies of the Bible, the Lord of the Rings (including Sil. and Hobbit) and of the Koran which would they think was a history and which a religion.
> 
> Would they think that Lord of the Rings was a religion or even a history of our world? Would they disregard the other two as mere fiction stories? What are your ideas?



You bring up a worthy topic of discussion indeed, were not religion _forbidden_ to be discussed on the forum (before you got here, there was a lot of flaming going on in the topics of religion and politics which caused The Powers That Be to shut down those threads). Frankly, I believe we deserve another chance. We are after all, quite an intelligent group, and it rankles to be treated like naughty irresponsible children. That said... 

If aliens discovered that we had wiped ourselves out (which seems more and more likely with every passing day), I would imagine they'd try to look into more than just what your Mom mentioned. They'd be looking at all of our history, and they would find this out about us, which is so characteristic of us: that we (the collective human race) knew that what we were doing was wrong (the pollution of the environment, the deconstruction of societies, waging war) and we did it anyway. Despite all the wisdom collected in the various religions of the world, we actually used them as one of the bases for destroying ourselves — _in the name of God_ no less. I think you'll agree that that is Man at his most appallingly stupid.

And if they came across all our holy books, they might say something like, "Well — 'religions' as they call them — are interesting first attempts to organize themselves into moral beings and to establish control over their more bestial aspects. But they made that common mistake of saying that their religions were _perfect_ because 'handed down right from God' and therefore _unchangeable,_ and so the religions fell behind as the societies advanced technologically, leaving an ever-wider gap between technology and morals. And that led to their self-extinction. 

"These religions are such an incredible mixture of real wisdom and sheer rot! They never did get to understand the real Truth of Reality, because they killed themselves off before their mind/bodies _evolved_ to the point where they had the biological equipment necessary to perceive it. So they lived on myths and legends (calling them Divine Revelations), and they paid the price for acting on that poppycock by waging wars in the names of their Gods (one of their most common rationales to commit violence) until they extinguished themselves. Such a shame. They had such potential, but they simply couldn't overcome the violence in their natures."

Frankly, I think the religious aspect of the Silmarillion is the best part of it, the most hopeful and uplifting (in what is otherwise a beautifully written but dreary recitation of lost causes through violence and folly — a true reflection of mankind), specifically the notion that "God" created the physical universe as a transmutation of music. What I disagree with is the concept of "the fall," or the idea of Man being inherently sinful. However, if you call deliberate wilful acts of cruelty a "sin," then we are indeed inherently sinful — but that by our own choice, that because we haven't yet been willing or able to grow past and sublimate our violent tendencies and energies into constructive ends.

Your family sounds like a nice place to be! 

Barley


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## Hammersmith (Feb 13, 2005)

While I disagree with you Barley, I shall do so respectfully, and with as much adherance to the original question as I may. I am fully aware that Tolkien wrote his works specifically avoiding any analogy, yet analogy is to be found if one makes even the most cursory of searches. The moral code and obedience to the heirarchy of his Middle Earth draws extensively from practised religion, to the point where the apocalyptic aliens described would surely draw the link between one and the other. They might assume that The Lord Of The Rings was an honest belief held by some people, though its factual contradictions break it away from the Bible (as, I believe one of Tolkien's sources that he drew on) or other religious works to the point where the moral coding is the only real link left intact.
With regards to your other points Barley, it is interesting to note that Feanor's war against Melkor, though begotten out of greed and hatred, was for an ultimately worthy cause that the "gods" themselves took up after the inhabitants of Middle Earth humbled themselves. I cannot see any of Tolkien's works as indictments of religion; the Silmarillion warns of the just cause hijacked by the unjust and hot headed while Lord of the Rings is a clear instance of a noble cause being fought out righteously. Perhaps I am stretching, but these are merely points to consider, not a capstone to the debate. I hope it can continue peacefully and with as much cordiality as we have seen thus far. If not....well, adios to this thread I guess


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## Barliman Butterbur (Feb 13, 2005)

Hammersmith said:


> While I disagree with you Barley, I shall do so respectfully, and with as much adherance to the original question as I may. I am fully aware that Tolkien wrote his works specifically avoiding any analogy, yet analogy is to be found if one makes even the most cursory of searches. The moral code and obedience to the heirarchy of his Middle Earth draws extensively from practised religion, to the point where the apocalyptic aliens described would surely draw the link between one and the other. They might assume that The Lord Of The Rings was an honest belief held by some people, though its factual contradictions break it away from the Bible (as, I believe one of Tolkien's sources that he drew on) or other religious works to the point where the moral coding is the only real link left intact.



With respect (  ): I do not disagree with anything you say above, because as far as aliens go, it's all speculation. After all, who knows what an alien would think, or if their mental process could be called "thinking" at all? We might have aliens among us _right this second_ so "alien" to us that we cannot even perceive their presence, and _they_ could know _us inside out!_  And, I didn't say the aliens were "apocalyptic" — _we're_ the apocalyptic ones!

You mentioned the Bible, meaning the Judeo/Christian holy book. I only mention here the fact of the presence of many other holy books in the world (and many religions without them) with totally different takes on Man and his behavior.



> With regards to your other points Barley, it is interesting to note that Feanor's war against Melkor, though begotten out of greed and hatred, was for an ultimately worthy cause that the "gods" themselves took up after the inhabitants of Middle Earth humbled themselves. I cannot see any of Tolkien's works as indictments of religion;



Nor did I mean to imply any such thing. To clarify: Tolkien's Silmarillion is a _reflection_ of man's behavior, not an indictment as such.



> ...the Silmarillion warns of the just cause hijacked by the unjust and hot headed while Lord of the Rings is a clear instance of a noble cause being fought out righteously. Perhaps I am stretching, but these are merely points to consider, not a capstone to the debate. I hope it can continue peacefully and with as much cordiality as we have seen thus far. If not....well, adios to this thread I guess



I agree! The Sil is basically about lost causes, and for me a book which was — at least in part — a therapeutic outlet for Tolkien as he healed (or at least tried to) from WW I. LOTR, I speculate, is a statement of man's potential ability to overcome the worst in himself and achieve his true best nature, and at the least a statement in fantasy — a wish fulfilled if you like — of Tolkien's desire to see man triumph — at least in the world of he subcreated — to make up for the appalling behavior of the _real_ race of men.

Barley


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## Hammersmith (Feb 13, 2005)

Barliman Butterbur said:


> And, I didn't say the aliens were "apocalyptic" — _we're_ the apocalyptic ones!


I was referring to the hypothetical "aliens" discovering us in a post-apocalyptic state. Bad phrasing - my bad  



Barliman Butterbur said:


> You mentioned the Bible, meaning the Judeo/Christian holy book. I only mention here the fact of the presence of many other holy books in the world (and many religions without them) with totally different takes on Man and his behavior.


 I merely referred to the Bible as (1) the text with which I am most familiar and (2) a text closely mirroring LOTR and Tolkien's works and beliefs

Let's keep it civil, folks! This discussion revolves around Tolkien and his parallels, but crosses over to the enforced taboo of religion. Play nice!

@Barley - I like your reasoning  You debate well


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## Barliman Butterbur (Feb 13, 2005)

Hammersmith said:


> Barley - I like your reasoning  You debate well



Thank you. It isn't my intention to actually _debate_ however...I just say how I feel about this or that. If someone wants to differ, fine and dandy. If someone says something stimulating and intelligent I enjoy the back-and-forth that ensues for as far as it may go. Otherwise I try to let things be, unless something is said that's just really too stupid or insulting (or both) to let go unanswered — and that's when I get into trouble! 

Barley


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## Gothmog (Feb 13, 2005)

> Originally Posted by *Barliman Butterbur*
> You bring up a worthy topic of discussion indeed, were not religion forbidden to be discussed on the forum (before you got here, there was a lot of flaming going on in the topics of religion and politics which caused The Powers That Be to shut down those threads). Frankly, I believe we deserve another chance. We are after all, quite an intelligent group, and it rankles to be treated like naughty irresponsible children. That said...


Very much a worthy topic. It has been brought up once before, I look forward to seeing how well this thread develops. As for religion, if it is connected to Tolkien it is not forbidden but encouraged. As for getting another chance to discuss non-Tolkien-related religion, I would suggest that threads such as this could help your argument


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## scotsboyuk (Feb 13, 2005)

Let us consider this topic from another angle. Supposing the aliens that come to Earth after mankind has been wiped out find two texts; one is LOTR and the other is a history book, detailing WWII.

LOTR has often been compared to WWII, not very successfully in my opinion, but what would an objective viewer make of these two different texts?

WWII was essentially a struggle between good and evil, between the established order of imperial empires based upon religion and tradition and new ideological empires based upon science and progress. This is an overly simplified view of WWII, but it serves the purposes of this post well enough. If we examine two of the main protagonists in the war we can perhaps see parallels in Tolkien's works. Nazi Germany was a society constructed upon warped science and twisted ideology. The British Empire was a society built upon a foundation of Christianity and permanence. The two were polar opposites and one can see a parallel to Tolkien in the fight between a traditional religious based faction opposing an ideological 'progressive' scientific faction.

Would our aliens really see much difference between Gandalf rallying the troops of Gondor in their darkest hour and Churchill rallying the people of Britain in their darkest hour? Both can be said to have considered themselves as servants of a higher power, in the case of Gandalf it would be the Valar and ultimately Illuvatur, in Churchill's case it would be God.

Would our aliens see any great difference in a religious based faction struggling against almost impossible odds to secure a victory that almost no one thought was possible at the outset?

Would our aliens see the difference in Frodo wielding the light of Elendil or Gandalf calling upon the primeval power of Illuvatur that resides within him and Churchill invoking the idea of Christian civilisation triumphing over evil or the prayers of millions that the Nazis should be defeated?

I could quote example after example, but suffice to say that I see fundamental truths in any text. We as human beings share a common mind, no matter what our religious beliefs may or may not be, we all share basic principles that define us as human. The reason we can identify so much with characters like Beren, Isildur, Gandalf, etc is because they share those same basic characteristics that are part of us all.

Any aliens viewing those two texts I mentioned would no doubt view one as being a work of fiction because it contained acts that are not physically possible in the way they are described, but I am quite sure that they would see two texts that describe both the worst and the best that humanity had to offer. However, I don't think aliens will ever be in that position, because when one reads such texts, whether it be a history book or a work of fiction, one invariably finds that even in the most desperate of situations, man has a capacity to rise above his base nature and invoke that, which seperates us from the other creatures on this planet. As a wise man may have said, no matter how long and dark the night may be, morning always comes.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Feb 13, 2005)

scotsboyuk said:


> Let us consider this topic from another angle. Supposing the aliens that come to Earth after mankind has been wiped out find two texts; one is LOTR and the other is a history book, detailing WWII.



Thank you for your well-thought-out speculations! I for one will not enter the fray of your speculation, because, like mine, it is also — although thought-provoking — a contrivance. I used the "vehicle" of alien beings for my own purposes, to make some comments on religion in general as a reflection of Mankind, and the rule situation on the Forum. 

Personally, I believe any alien presence in our very midst would likely go unnoticed, just as the ant doesn't notice the presence of a human observer. I also wouldn't be surprised that a real alien in considering us would have no more interest in us than we do in ants (except for the specialists — "specialist" — that's someone who knows more and more about less and less until he knows everything about nothing  ). 

Barley


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## scotsboyuk (Feb 13, 2005)

Barliman Butterbur said:


> ... someone who knows more and more about less and less until he knows everything about nothing  ).
> 
> Barley


 
Some religions and philosophies would consider that their ultimate goal.


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## baragund (Feb 14, 2005)

Manwe, I would think somebody who discovers the ruins of Mankind's civilization would eventually figure out that The Bible, The Koran and other religious texts were a different animal than Tolkien's writings. 

Let's assume there was the apocalypse, Mankind is wiped out, and somebody else comes along to discover the ruins of our civilization... just like at the end of that recent Steven Spielburg movie about the boy android (I'm having a brain freeze. I can't remember the name of the movie  ). It seems to me that there would be enough artifacts left behind to figure out that The Bible, The Koran and others occupied a much different place in our society, based on the presence of churches, mosques, other kinds of temples, and everything else that goes with them, than a work of fiction. 

I am also assuming that we destroy ourselves with the current religions of the world pretty much as they are today. Now who knows? Maybe in the next millenium or so, "Tolkienism" or "Valarian" gets traction as a religion and people start building temples dedicated to Eru, complete with side chapels dedicated to each of the Valar. Then, it will be more difficult to distinguish Tolkien's stuff from other religions.

As for considering Tolkien's writings an historical account, I would again point to whether or not there are any artifacts to support it. If somebody were to discover our lost civilization, they would probably discover at least some of the body of writing that would be left behind, and they would be able to identify there is stuff that is considered "fiction" and stuff that is considered "non-fiction".

Any of this make sense?


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## scotsboyuk (Feb 14, 2005)

@baragund

I do agree with you, but only to a certain extent. One is assuming that those who come after the hypothetical destruction of mankind operate on the same level as we do.

If a civilisation existed on the Earth a hundred million years ago, would be able to find any evidence of them? Any artifacts they left behind would have long since crumbled to dust.

How would an alien understand what was fiction and what was not? Both the Bible and LOTR contain accounts of 'magic' and supernatural beings, would they see much difference in them. This is assuming that such aliens even utilised writing at all.

We can barely understand certain cultures in our own history, imagine the problems an alien being would have in understanding our culture. If such aliens had no notion of religion, would they understand what a church was? If they had no concept of literature, would they understand what a novel was?

We take the knowledge we are discussing here for granted, an alien cannot do that.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Feb 14, 2005)

scotsboyuk said:


> Some religions and philosophies would consider that [the definition of "specialist"] their ultimate goal.



And indeed, many have achieved it!

Barley


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## Manwe (Feb 20, 2005)

Ok, firstly, good discussion I'm happy that so many different opinions have come out of my simple little speculation  .


> You bring up a worthy topic of discussion indeed, were not religion forbidden to be discussed on the forum (before you got here, there was a lot of flaming going on in the topics of religion and politics which caused The Powers That Be to shut down those threads).


 I msorry I didn't realise because, as you said, it was before my time.


> Your family sounds like a nice place to be!


 Oh it is  . And I'm sorry if my mentioning the Bible and the Koran was to closed minded I was simply taking two examples that I could think of. I'll post again but at the moment lightning is striking around my house  .


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## Manwe (Feb 21, 2005)

> Let's assume there was the apocalypse, Mankind is wiped out, and somebody else comes along to discover the ruins of our civilization... just like at the end of that recent Steven Spielburg movie about the boy android (I'm having a brain freeze. I can't remember the name of the movie ).


 That was called A.I


> It seems to me that there would be enough artifacts left behind to figure out that The Bible, The Koran and others occupied a much different place in our society, based on the presence of churches, mosques, other kinds of temples, and everything else that goes with them, than a work of fiction.


 I meant my question more as a "everything destroyed of our civilaisation, only evidence left is the books" kind of question.


> Any aliens viewing those two texts I mentioned would no doubt view one as being a work of fiction because it contained acts that are not physically possible in the way they are described


 Who's to say what is physically possible for these aliens?
For myself I would think that these aliens that we are speculating about would think that the Silmarillion was a religion as much as the Bible. If theses aliens have discovered space travel I would think that they would have been questioning how they were created and I also think they would think it was a religion because any history that included the creation of the universe would include the creation of life forms other than these "humans".


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## Thorondor_ (May 23, 2005)

Tolkien said 

"The chief purpose of life, for any one of us is to increase according to our capacity our knowledge of God by all the means we have, and to be moved by it to praise and thanks."
In making a myth, in practicing 'mythopoeia,' and peopling the world with elves and dragons and goblins, *a story-teller* .. *is actually fulfilling God's purpose*, and reflecting a splintered fragment of the true light."
I think it's rather apparent from the words of Tolkien himself that he did view the myth as a true way towards God. Maybe one different from religion, although his myths are very related to his christian faith.
I think that yes, the works of Tolkien could stand next to a religious scripture, of any magnitude. Because it speaks to all minds about the power of good, the consequences of evil and the final purpose of creation/life, which is, at least for the humans - the return to God.


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