# Did Mablung really die?



## Inderjit S (Aug 2, 2003)

Mablung, a Elf of Doriath is Thingol’s Chief Captain, who played a large role in the War of the Jewels and in particular the _Narn I Hin Hurin_. We learn in _Of the Ruin of Doriath _ that he was slain by the Nogrodian Dwarves whilst he was protecting the Silmaril which was hidden in it’s chamber. But a lot of the latter part of the Silmarillion, is either taken from the _Early Quenta Silmarillion _ (HoME 5) or is ‘made up’ by Chris Tolkien and since Tolkien didn’t write much about the Ruin of Doriath a lot of the stuff written in there are editorial additions, so to speak written by C.T. Now this doesn’t mean that Mablung didn’t die, but we are told in _Ælfwine and Dírhavel _ (HoME 11) that Mablung aided Dírhavel in the making of the Narn, whilst the refugees of various Mannish and Elvish realms resided upon the River Sirion. So if Mablung was a refugee of Doriath then who could he have died protecting the Silmaril? Therefore one can conclude that he didn’t die at all. What makes it more apparent is that in one of the primary resources that Tolkien used to compile the events outlined in the Fall of Doriath, the _Tale of Years _ (HoME 11) doesn’t once say Mablung was killed neither does the _Latter Annals of Beleriand _ (HoME 5) whilst the _Early Quenta Silmarillion _ (HoME 5) doesn’t go into Doriath and the _Quenta Silmarillion _ of HoME 4 mentions nothing of Mablung, just that many Elves and Dwarves were slain in a first fight and a mound was raised and that Thingol’s hunting company was ambushed by dwarves from Belegost and Nogrod., in fact the only time Mablung is connected with the Fall of Doriath or dies is in the _Naugflafring_ where he is shot by Dwarvish arrrows, a stark contrast from his death in the _Published Silmarillion_ that C.T gives is but nonetheless Lost tales legendarium certainly cannot be taken into context or taken as canon. So is this another mistake by C.T? Did Mablung actually survive the Ruin of Doriath? I hope so, he was as he is one of my favourite characters. Maybe he is a lord of Tol Eressea, and maybe he was one of the lords who visited Aldarion and Erendis's wedding?


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## Captain (Aug 3, 2003)

I sure in the Sil that it says that Mablung "fell" in the battle.


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## Inderjit S (Aug 4, 2003)

> I sure in the Sil that it says that Mablung "fell" in the battle.



Oh, that was a reference to him falling over a Dwarfs beard, as the Dwarf had recently gone to a styling salon to get it braided, and y'know what they say about newly-braided Dwarfs beards and clumsy heavy handed Elves don't you?


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## Beleg (Aug 4, 2003)

> *Posted by Inderjit*
> but we are told in Ælfwine and Dírhavel (HoME 11) that Mablung aided Dírhavel in the making of the Narn, whilst the refugees of various Mannish and Elvish realms resided upon the River Sirion. So if Mablung was a refugee of Doriath then who could he have died protecting the Silmaril?


The actual Quote reads as follows, 


> Dírhavel, who lived at the Havens in the days of Ëarendel and there gathered all the tidings and lore that he could of the House of Hador, whether among Men or Elves, remnants and fugitives of Dorlómin, of Nargothrond, or of Doriath*. From Mablung he learned much;* and by fortune also he found a man named Andvír, and he was very old, but was the son of that Andróg who was in the outlaw-band of Túrin, and alone survived the battle on the summit of Amon Rûdh.



There are various scenario's of how Dírhavel would have gotten his information. Perhaps he went to Doriath after Thingol was slayed? Perhaps he met Mablung outside of Doriath while Mablung was guarding the marches of Doriath. It doesn't *Necessarily* mean that Mablung was present at the heavens of Sirion. It is said that Dírhavel lived in the heavens in the day of Éarendil, but the realm of Éarendil didn't last long enough to warrant the passing of a whole generation so It is just possible that Dírhavel was an aged man when he wrote the Narn and that before the establishment of the refuge he had actually wandered in the wilds of Beleriand and had went to Doriath. 
Other then this point, I basically agree with your presumption. I didn't find anything at all concerning Mablung in *The Later Quenta Silmarillion of HOME XI*
But I still think that the chances of his surviving are slim. 
If Alas, Tolkien had completed Silmarillion in its entirity, we would have been presented with a much richer and beautiful tale. 
It is possible that the death of Mablung is an invention of C.T. 
But was it warranted?


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## Inderjit S (Aug 7, 2003)

*Beleg's Post*

Dírhavel’s rendering of the _Narn i Hin Hurin_ was 'hard-work' in that he needed several different accounts-it was pointless as you imply just getting one from Mablung. How could he remember all Mablung said, or carry his notes? This statement supports my theory that he gathered the lore from Sirion:



> Dwelling at the Havens of Sirion, he gathered there all the ridings and lore that he could; for in the last days of Beleriand there came thither remnants out of all the countries, both Men and Elves: from Hithlum and Dor-lómin, from Nargothrond and Doriath, from Gondolin and the realms of the Sons of Fëanor in the east.



Note, *Dwelling at the Havens of Sirion* this implies that at when he was dwelling here, he managed to obtain the information in the Narn from various peoples from the kingdoms mentioned, and that Mablung and Andvír were prominent in this as a earlier quote shows. 



> Perhaps he met Mablung outside of Doriath while Mablung was guarding the marches of Doriath



Mablung was the Chief Captain of Thingol-not the guard of the North march. we don't know who took that position after Beleg so I see no reason for Mablung to take it anytime after Turin's departure, since he had told the King that he should give up his captaincy in disgrace due to his loss of Morwen and Nienor and the King and Melian tell him that he should keep his position and shouldn’t feel disgraced, it wasn't his fault. He is also the leader of the Elves who set off to warn Turin of Glaurung, signifying he was still Chief Captain. 



> heavens in the day of Éarendil, but the realm of Éarendil didn't last long enough



According to the _Tale of Years_ it lasted from 530 to 538, though surely it encompassed Tuor's realm. I think Dírhavel may have been there for a long time, he may have been born there, or fled there after the Nirnaeth-how do you except him to escape out of Hithlum long after it was under Easterling control? Or travel around Ork-infested Beleriand or in the dangerous area of Nan Dungortheb. You could say he was a part of Hurin's group in the _Wanderings of Hurin_ but surely Tolkien would have deemed it fit to mention? 



> is just possible that Dírhavel was an aged man when he wrote the



There is no mention of his age. Only Andvír is said to be old.


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## Beleg (Aug 7, 2003)

> Mablung was the Chief Captain of Thingol-not the guard of the North march. we don't know who took that position after Beleg so I see no reason for Mablung to take it anytime after Turin's departure, since he had told the King that he should give up his captaincy in disgrace due to his loss of Morwen and Nienor and the King and Melian tell him that he should keep his position and shouldn’t feel disgraced, it wasn't his fault. He is also the leader of the Elves who set off to warn Turin of Glaurung, signifying he was still Chief Captain.



I never said he was the guard of the North March. 
It is Possible for Mablung to patrol and guard the borders specially after the land outside was being orc infested and Doriath was in more danger. No where does it say that the Chief Captain was foribidden to go to the Woods and fences, Infact this Quote from *Silmarillion*






> Thus he burst into the inviolate woods of Doriath, and all fled away in fear. Alone of the messengers Mablung, chief captain of the King, escaped, and he brought the dread tidings to Thingol.



implies to me that Mablung often went to the marches or atleast to the outerwoods. I don't have a Qualm with him being the chief captain, but his setting off to warn Turin doesn't prove at all that he is the Chief Captain.



> According to the Tale of Years it lasted from 530 to 538, though surely it encompassed Tuor's realm. I think Dírhavel may have been there for a long time, he may have been born there, or fled there after the Nirnaeth-how do you except him to escape out of Hithlum long after it was under Easterling control? Or travel around Ork-infested Beleriand or in the dangerous area of Nan Dungortheb. You could say he was a part of Hurin's group in the Wanderings of Hurin but surely Tolkien would have deemed it fit to mention?



Tolkien mentiones on many occasion the presence of Outlaws in Beleriand. 



*Entry for 486, Grey Annals*


> Then fearing the anger of Thingol he fled, and became an outlaw in the woods, and gathered a desperate band, of Elves and of Men



and 
Remember there were people occasionally running off from Angband and succeeding and since they were not welcomed in the communities, they because outlaws. It is not entirely unprobable for some single elf or men, or a small band, to live in the wild even if the land is orc infested. 
And as for shut Hithlum what to make of this, 

*Grey Annals, War of the Jewels*



> But he was aided by some that remained of Hador's people and knew the ways of the wild, and with them he escaped through the falling snow and came to an outlaws' refuge in the southern mountains of Dorlómin.


That is Turin returning from Dor-lomin to Vales of Sirion. 
Remember not all the folks of Hador were assasinated by the Swarthy Men. There would still be some that took to the life of wild and become outlaws.
It shows to us that it was possible to get in and out of Hithlum. 

There are other things which Tolkien didn't 'deem fit' to explain in his narratives. It is just probable that he forget all about Dirhavel, since the lineage of Dirhavel might seem to him like a trivial matter, and offcourse I can be wrong, but I am only presenting a theory, which seems to me to be a very probable one.



> is just possible that Dírhavel was an aged man when he wrote the



I am only presenting the possiblities. Since it isn't explictly mentioned that Dirhavel was young, we can suppose his age. 

I have only presented the possibilites, I say nothing with certainity. 
but about Dirhavel's old age, 

Was Androg married before the tragedy at Amon Obel? I don't think so, then where did he married? surely there were some outlaw communities present in around Southern Beleriand. 
And since the Kingdoms of Doriath and Gondolin only composed of Elves, Dirhavel's family must have been Outlaws.


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## Inderjit S (Aug 8, 2003)

Your opening post, about Carcaroth is a reference to the messengers that were sent by Thingol to Maedhros wanting him to help search for Luthien-Mablung was the only one that remained. 



> I don't have a Qualm with him being the chief captain, but his setting off to warn Turin doesn't prove at all that he is the Chief Captain.





> Mablung: Elf of Doriath, Chief Captain of Thingol


 _Index of Names; Published Silmarillion_ 



> Then at Last Mablung returned to Doriath bowed with grief and shame 'Choose you a new master of your hunters lord', he said to the King 'for I am dishonored'


 _Narn i Hin Hurin_ 



> But even as he cried out he saw twelve huntsman welll-armed that came over the crossings, and they were Elves and as they drew near, he knew one, for it was Mablung, chief huntsman of Thingol


 _Narn i Hin Hurin_ 

Mablung is also at his seat amongst the Sindarin lords, when Turin casts the drinking vessel in Saeros's face and when Nellas comes to tell Thingol her version of Turin and Saeros’s fight.



> Remember there were people occasionally running off from Angband and succeeding and since they were not welcomed in the communities, they because outlaws.



Morgoth mainly took Elves rather then Men into thraldom, though he did take Men, he took Elves more often, because of their smith crafty, for example, whilst he and the Easterlings mainly rounded up Men to work as slaves there (As few as there were left) the Ork's took the Elves of Hithlum to Angband as described in _Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin_.

If he did escape Angband then it would have been a great...no, amazing deed, for a man, nigh impossible which would have been mentioned by Tolkien. 



> Remember not all the folks of Hador were assasinated by the Swarthy Men



Guns in M-E?  




> It shows to us that it was possible to get in and out of Hithlum.



There was the Gate of the Noldor and that and that may have been it. 



> I am only presenting a theory, which seems to me to be a very probable one.



O.K, so your theory is that C.T was right in magically assuming Mablung was dead, that Dírhavel went travelling around Ork-infested Beleriand into regions where 'mortal men shouldn't go' this is a reference to the land above Doriath where he had to go to talk to Mablung and then he somehow go to meet Mablung and remembered everything he said, after many years, or carried his notes around even though he was a outlaw, and that it is more probable then say Mablung not dieing (Tolkien never says he did) and just meeting Dírhavel at Sirion where there were refugees from Doriath and many other places, where Tolkien explicitly says he got his information about, not the north-marches of Doriath.



> Was Androg married before the tragedy at Amon Obel? I don't think so, then where did he married



Andróg was of the Wolf-group. He could not have a community for outlaws as if he lived in a community he wouldn't be a outlaw, and why would he join the wolf-group if he was married, or had a family. Andróg was said to be driven from Dor-lomin because he slew a woman, presumably he fled with his son. The whole point is Andvír was at Amon Obel and with the Wolf-man group, that’s where Dírhavel got the info on Turin's life at that stage from.



> Dirhavel's family must have been Outlaws.



Most of the outlaws and other groups would have gone to the Haven on Sirion.


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