# Why Shire was so defenseless that Saruman could take it like a piece of cake



## Hisoka Morrow (Sep 26, 2020)

Yeah, here're the big doubt I list

1. Celebrities like Gandalf, Barliman and Bilbo have already make Shire not isolated anymore via commercial, adventure and all kinds of activities. This proved that Shire's role in ME has already a bit important on all kinds of aspects. Shire must not be so isolated that like some "Dark lands", after all, only the tobacco business is big enough to make Shire well-known enough, according to the popularity of smoking. When Saruman occupied Shire, all economic activities must.
2. Those non-combat personnel of the Northern Rangers were supposed to keep an eye on Shire, after all, at least the Prancy Pony is popular enough to be a tunnel of information, even if Aragorn left none of the combat personnel to defend their HQ in the Northern Battlefield. Succeeding point 1, these Northern Rangers non combat personnel might be the most possible to do this job due to the important economic role of Shire, at least on the business of tobacco.
3. Saruman is a big guy among the Dark Forces like Sauron, thus unless his track gets lost for centuries like Sauron getting defeated by the Last Alliance before, he must get "Wanted" by the Free People to make sure he's dead or alive at least. The Free People should hunt him down to the very end, as an result, Shire, already known by almost all the High Command like Aragorn, Gandalf, and so forth, should have sent at least intellectual agents to every corner they know even if it's not inhabited, it goes without saying about Shire.


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## Angelimir (Oct 6, 2020)

I don’t think it was defenseless, but when people are left in peace and content for so long it takes a lot to rouse them. But when the returning heroes came home, they worked together and defeated Saruman with ease.


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## Starbrow (Oct 6, 2020)

It's not so much that they were defenseless, but that they weren't wary enough. The big people gradually infiltrated until they were hard to resist.


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## Angelimir (Oct 6, 2020)

My answer was better and more thorough. lol.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Oct 8, 2020)

Starbrow said:


> The big people gradually infiltrated until they were hard to resist.


Oh yes, yet here comes to another big problem, couldn't Shire have any tunnel to call outer reinforcement such as those cigarette guilds? That's the point, why Shire got occupied till Frodo and his fellows returned. The leading powers of Free People, such as Gondor, just did nothing but letting Saruman sit tight at Shire, apart from Frodo and his fellows.



Angelimir said:


> I don’t think it was defenseless, but when people are left in peace and content for so long it takes a lot to rouse them


Hmm..yes, yet how about those have contact with Shire from outer places, such as taboocos merchants?After Saruman took over Shire, these merchants's business must have suffered a lot, why didn't they call for help from those leading powers such as Gondor?


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## Starbrow (Oct 8, 2020)

I didn't think that pipeweed trade had traveled far beyond the Shire. Trade seems to have been limited to Bree and Isengard. There is no evidence that it's use had reached Gondor or Rohan. When Barliman talks about the pipeweed shortage and that a lot had been shipped south, I'm not sure who was buying it, if that rumor was even true.


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## Alcuin (Oct 8, 2020)

Saruman was buying the pipeweed, of course, hoarding it for himself in barrels. Perhaps he planned to open a tobacconist shop in Minas Tirith. But toward the end of SR 1418 (III 3018), before the Nine Walkers left Rivendell, Saruman had Lotho “Pimple” Sackville-Baggins begin shipping great stores of food and goods to Isengard in preparation for his planned wars, first against Rohan, then against Gondor, and (hopefully, though he required the Ruling Ring to being it to fruition,) against Mordor. He was, in effect, robbing the demesne of the King of Arnor in his absence and in his despite to launch an attack upon the King’s rightful kingdom of Gondor and its ally, Rohan.

The Shire had not been invaded since Bandobras “Bullroarer” Took drove off a contingent of Orcs in the Battle of Greenfields in SR 1147 (III 2747) during an invasion of Eriador by the Orcs of the Misty Mountains in the years III 2745–2748, during the reigns of Arassuil as Chieftain of the Dúnedain of Arnor and Beregond as Ruling Steward of Gondor. Saruman had not yet taken up residence in Orthanc (in III 2759), nor the Long Winter taken place (III 2758-9); however, Dunlendings raiding over the Isen had occupied the deserted ring of Isengard and could not be dislodged (III 2710): perhaps there is some connection with the raiding Orcs on that account. The Hobbits of the Shire (and of Bree) had been so long at peace that they had forgotten their own history and were forgetting their need for defense; moreover, the Rangers had kept them – and Bree – safe for so long that they had all (Shire-folk and Bree-folk both Big and Little alike) forgotten who and what the Rangers were: the last of the military force of Arnor. (There were other survivors of Arnor, too, “common” Dúnedain, living in the Angle between the Mitheithel (Greyflood) and the Bruinen (Loudwater); but they do not come into the tale, and we know about them only from a note on the internet many years ago by the Tolkien linguist David Salo, cited in a note by Michael Martinez. I have never seen the original note, and Martinez’s current recitation no longer carries a citation of Salo so far as I know: that might be because Salo asked him to remove it: the Tolkien Trust is quite prickly about what information is released about Tolkien’s papers.) 

Bree was better prepared to meet with troublemakers because there were Big Folk as well as Little Folk there, and there were also remains of a defensive dike and wall that could be put back into hasty repair: Bree was never as isolated as the Shire. Moreover there were occasional troublesome travelers in Bree, which remained a way-meeting, though much reduced from its earlier importance: Butterbur, his neighbors, their predecessors, and the gatekeepers were all still in place to deal with such problems. The Shire, however, no longer suffered invasion: Dwarves passed through and only dealt with Shire-folk to purchase food or sell goods (Hobbits did not normally haggle over the prices charged by the Dwarves, according to Gandalf) or to barter for the exchange, and the Elves who passed through were peaceable and kept to themselves. The Tooks were certainly capable of taking care of themselves: Pippin’s father, the Thain, was able to defend his lands, and it would seem Merry’s father, the Master of Buckland, was likewise able to maintain himself (though what authority he retained on the west side of the Brandywine might be disputed by Lotho’s Hobbit Shirriffs.) The greater part of the Shire was simply unprepared for a coup: Will Whitfoot, the Mayor, walked right into a trap, and from there, matters went south, as the saying goes. 

As soon as The Four Travelers returned, however, they set the countryside afire, and the peaceable Hobbits became the local Hobbitry-in-arms, a reasonably well-armed militia well-disciplined by Merry and Pippin, who’d been trained (though they didn’t realize it at the time!) by Aragorn and Boromir with the assistance of Legolas and Gimli, all tried and true warriors, then put to work in the armies of Rohan and Gondor, having seen battle and wounds and military discipline and strategy. It took the Four Travelers, along with the Hobbits of the Hobbiton region and the muster from Tookland less than four days to put an end to Saruman’s short but brutal reign. 

There were no Rangers to call upon: most of them had answered Galadriel’s summons to help Aragorn in Rohan. The Eldar of Lindon did not act: why would they? their principle concern at that time was likely escaping Middle-earth and what seemed to be the impending dominion of Sauron. Rivendell likewise did not intervene. Where would the Shire Hobbits turn for allies? And as for the slow incursion of Men into the Shire, the story of boiling a frog is appropriate for them as well as for us today: Put a frog in hot water, and it’ll jump out immediately. Put a frog in cold water and heat it only slowly, and it’ll let you boil it to death.

By the way, I believe Saruman’s plan was to starve the Shire during the upcoming winter, starve them to death.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 9, 2020)

The Shire was never totally defenseless; besides the Rangers, of whose guardianship the inhabitants were probably unaware, and whose numbers around the Shire were likely small, there were the Bounders, and their numbers had increased, as more "queer folk" had begun to appear on the borders.

As far as pipeweed goes, the shortage always struck me as odd. It's Hob Hayward who speaks of "wagon-loads" of it going south, towards the end of the previous year, though he says "we do hear", so that could be called rumor. Pure speculation on my part, but unless Saruman was buying up huge quantities merely to deprive the Shire of it -- and why would he care about them, if he hoped to obtain the Ring? --- I wonder if he imported it for distribution to his Dunlending allies? Some Men smoked, and wanderers through Bree might well have brought the practice into their lands. Barliman admits that Breeland weed was much inferior to that of the Shire, so Saruman's gifts of Longbottom Leaf would have been very welcome.

Trade in pipeweed may have been more extensive than we are explicitly told; Dwarves certainly were familiar with it, so some must have been going to the Blue Mountains for some time. There was traffic between there and the East, especially after the death of Smaug, and after the reestablishment of Dale, it wouldn't be a surprise to find pipe-smoking spreading among Men there.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Oct 9, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> ...Trade in pipeweed may have been more extensive than we are explicitly told; Dwarves certainly were familiar with it, so some must have been going to the Blue Mountains for some time...


That's the point, why there're no other guys during the pipe-weeds commercial trade chain like resellers, wholesalers, and even customers notice that Shire has fallen?In particular, pipe-weeds had been obviously internationally popular.



Starbrow said:


> ...Trade seems to have been limited to Bree and Isengard...


Yet if that's so, Bree, the at least certain customer of the pipe-weeds trade, should have noticed that Saruman took over Shire, unless Saruman kept every economic activity to work on still, yet JRRT mentioned Saruman made Shire a bloody-hell, under horrible economic depression. This means that Bree's pipe-weeds relatively commercial activity must have gotten inflicted.



Alcuin said:


> ...before the Nine Walkers left Rivendell, Saruman had Lotho “Pimple” Sackville-Baggins begin shipping great stores of food and goods to Isengard in preparation for his planned wars, first against Rohan, then against Gondor, and (hopefully, though he required the Ruling Ring to being it to fruition,) against Mordor. He was,...


I see...so this means all economic of the whole ME must have gone into depression due to the War of the Ring, making the pipe-weeds trade decline, thus during the aftermath, everyone would think it's strange that Shire's commercial activity is silenced, after all, they might think it just took time to recover it's economic, right?


Alcuin said:


> the Rangers had kept them – and Bree – safe for so long that they had all (Shire-folk and Bree-folk both Big and Little alike) forgotten who and what the Rangers were: the last of the military force of Arnor. (There were other survivors of Arnor, too, “common” Dúnedain, living in the Angle between the Mitheithel (Greyflood) and the Bruinen (Loudwater)


OK, I thought Shire might be the vendors for the North Rangers' military logistic, after all, Arnor's economic must have been game over during the Angmar war. My mistake==''' Yet wouldn't the Rangers want to hunt down Saruman?At least their non-combat personnel like women and kids should know the bounty to hunt down such big guy. In addition, the North Rangers's active areas must have recover their economic acts relative to Shire, such as their consumption on Prancy Pony earlier, that's the question I doubt even those closet factions to Shire neglect Saruman's potential counter attack.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 9, 2020)

Bear in mind that the shortages had been happening for only a few months, and during that time, wars had been going on; small ones, in the northwest, compared to the east and south, but still enough to cause localities like Bree to become even more insular, and inward-looking.

Even Barliman, who would naturally get any news from outside, mentions rumors about the Shire almost as a passing thought, as the party departs:



> 'I should have warned you before that all's not well in the Shire neither, if what we hear is true. Funny goings on, they say. But one thing drives out another, and I was full of my own troubles'.


In any case, it would surprise no one that pipeweed was in short supply. Trade of all kinds, all over Middle-earth, likely came to a near-standstill.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Oct 9, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Even Barliman, who would naturally get any news from outside, mentions rumors about the Shire almost as a passing thought, as the party departs:





Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> ...small ones, in the northwest, compared to the east and south, but still enough to cause localities like Bree to become even more insular, and inward-looking...


Become even more insular?Due to depression of economic?I see...thus the High Command of Free People begin to neglect the areas around the north-west due to it's commercial decline, right?That's why none notice Saruman sneaked into the Shire, was it?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 9, 2020)

No, actually I meant it was due to attacks, and a general upsurge of various malign people and creatures in the area. What trade there was would also suffer, of course. But mainly agrarian societies were mostly self-sufficient, with exceptions, such as the Dwarves.


Hisoka Morrow said:


> the High Command of Free People


I'm not sure who is meant here.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Oct 9, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> ...I'm not sure who is meant here...


Other than...those leading powers's leaders like Gondor's Aragorn, Rohan's Eomer, etc?Anyway, at least the all customers of pipe-weeds should have noticed the changing powers of Shire, for Saruman's reign over Shire truly sucked, leading everyone relative to Shire's economic no matter they're customers or producers, anyway, such obvious economic change would shock all other factions of the Free People enough or not, I wonder.
For instance, Dwarf's leaders like Gimlith should have noticed his states' economic change due to the cut-off of pipe-weeds.



Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> But mainly agrarian societies were mostly self-sufficient, with exceptions, such as the Dwarves.


Or unless JRRT's lore about ME's economic was really that isolated. If that's so, then my points are invalid. Yet the Numenor's expansion had proved that commercial plays a heavy role in JRRT's economic lore.


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## Olorgando (Oct 9, 2020)

I've just been thinking about what any invader of the Shire - at least one not determined to turn all of it into an infertile desert - would have thought about a determined Hobbit guerrilla. They were *way* tougher than Big Folk when push came to shove. Their stealth capabilities were matchless. And they could fire off projectiles with the deadliest of aim. Think of the Viet Cong that gave the US troops such trouble taken to the nth power. No, I don't think any occupier of the shire faced by angry guerrilla Hobbits would have stayed around very long ...


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## Ealdwyn (Oct 10, 2020)

It's a mistake to think that the Shire was defenceless through it's own complacency.
They fact they were unprepared was Aragorn's doing. As Chief of the Dunedain it was his decision to keep the Shire ignorant of events in wider ME, due to a misguided - and imho rather imperious - view that ordinary people are happier when they're ignorant: "_If simple folk are free from care and fear, simple they will be, and we must be secret to keep them so. That has been the task of my kindred..." 
_
I say 'imperious' because this strikes me as a very strange decision, not to mention condescending and arrogant. After all, the Shire folk aren't children. They've been well able to defend themselves in the past from orcs, wolves, and other undesirables, but now the Dunedain have chosen to keep them "sheltered" from the knowledge of growing danger. The whole of the rest of ME knows that something's coming: from Pelargir to the Iron Hills to the Grey Havens, everyone knows that forces are gathering in the East and there's a danger of ME being overrun, but that knowledge is deliberately withheld.
I mean, we can't let the little people know what's really going on, can we? Then they might want to.... oh, I don't know.... take steps to defend themselves?!! 🤔 😂

JRRT had to write it this way. By that I mean, for the story to work the Shire had to be blissfully untouched and unaware at the beginning of LotR. But in terms of keeping them safe, it makes no sense at all for Aragorn to leave the Hobbits vulnerable to attack through their own ignorance.


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## Olorgando (Oct 10, 2020)

Ealdwyn said:


> ...
> JRRT had to write it this way. By that I mean, for the story to work the Shire had to be blissfully untouched and unaware at the beginning of LotR. But in terms of keeping them safe, it makes no sense at all for Aragorn to leave the Hobbits vulnerable to attack through their own ignorance.


OK, let's assume Aragorn had *tried* to warn them. Would they have believed him? I have *very* serious doubts!

This is Aragorn in his scruffy "Strider" guise, looked on with suspicion even in Bree, among others by Barliman Butterbur, compared to all Hobbits except perhaps Farmer Maggot and some Bucklanders (and Bilbo after Erebor) a veritable man of the world.

How many of the Hobbits believed Bilbo's "tall tale" after he came "back again" after more than a year? How many believed anything told - mainly Merry, Pippin, and Sam, probably - about the goings-on during the War of The Ring? Tolkien once (very probably in a letter) made the point that he made the Hobbits small, among other reasons, to physically show the small reach of their imaginations, their provincialism, even parochialism (this does smack like a bit of post-fact rationalization by JRRT to me, but it fits entirely). While he did intend the Shire to be a calque on Victorian-to-Edwardian rural England, he was not uncritical of either, seeing inherent deficits in both.

What Strider would have told the Hobbits, about the mounting danger far, far away, would have seemed to almost all Hobbits as "News from Bree" to the nth degree. So why bother on Aragorn's part? (And Hobbit archers can be dangerous, so not getting on the wrong side of the "bounders", whose numbers *had* been increased, and who would certainly have looked with suspicion on such a scruffy-looking member of the Big Folk, may also have played a part).

Take Hamfast "The Gaffer" Gamgee as a typical Hobbit and let your imagination roam ...


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## Ealdwyn (Oct 10, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> What Strider would have told the Hobbits, about the mounting danger far, far away, would have seemed to almost all Hobbits as "News from Bree" to the nth degree.


I agree that if Aragorn approached them with news 'out of the blue', when they have been kept ignorant for many years, then they probably wouldn't have believed him. But keeping them ignorant for years is the problem, because their only experience of the world is a lie. The hobbits have been treated like children, as if they don't need to know what's going on in ME. That's not protecting them, that's condescending and dangerous. 

As we know from the likes of Bullroarer Took and the LotR hobbits returned from the War, hobbits aren't helpless children. They are quite capable of looking after themselves. If you want to protect them then you help them prepare to meet any potential threat, you don't keep them ignorant of it.


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## Olorgando (Oct 10, 2020)

'Out of the blue'? When Aragorn was born, in 2931 TA equaling 1331 SR, the Hobbits had lived in the Shire for a bit more than a millennium. The Great Plague hit 1626 TA or 36 SR. The destruction of the last Númenórean Kingdom in the north, Arthedain, took place in 1974 TA or 374 SR. Bandobras Took defeated that Orc band in 2747 TA or 1147 SR. The Fell Winter began in 2911 TA or 1311 SR. It's not like the Hobbits thought life was always easy-peasy, quite the contrary. And please forget "Aragorn" after his becoming King of the reunited Kingdom. This would have seemed to the Hobbits to be a scruffy ruffian of the Big Folk, Strider, whom they would have viewed with the deepest suspicion. I don't think there's a snowball's chance in hell that the Hobbits of the Shire would have believed *anything* this "Strider" would have told them. 'Out of the blue' or if six or more generations of his ancestors had been droning at the Hobbits about this threat. What was Bilbo's response early on Gandalf's remark about looking for someone to go on an "adventure"? "We are plain quiet folk and I have no use for adventures. Nasty disturbing uncomfortable things! Make you late for dinner!"

"Late for dinner" is the main Hobbit issue?!? Well, ... yes it is; or for any of the other five meals (if they can get them). For that matter, why didn't Gandalf, having *centuries* more experience with the Hobbits than Aragorn, not warn them? He knew it would be useless, is my take.


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## 1stvermont (Oct 10, 2020)

Hisoka Morrow said:


> Yeah, here're the big doubt I list
> 
> 1. Celebrities like Gandalf, Barliman and Bilbo have already make Shire not isolated anymore via commercial, adventure and all kinds of activities. This proved that Shire's role in ME has already a bit important on all kinds of aspects. Shire must not be so isolated that like some "Dark lands", after all, only the tobacco business is big enough to make Shire well-known enough, according to the popularity of smoking. When Saruman occupied Shire, all economic activities must.
> 2. Those non-combat personnel of the Northern Rangers were supposed to keep an eye on Shire, after all, at least the Prancy Pony is popular enough to be a tunnel of information, even if Aragorn left none of the combat personnel to defend their HQ in the Northern Battlefield. Succeeding point 1, these Northern Rangers non combat personnel might be the most possible to do this job due to the important economic role of Shire, at least on the business of tobacco.
> 3. Saruman is a big guy among the Dark Forces like Sauron, thus unless his track gets lost for centuries like Sauron getting defeated by the Last Alliance before, he must get "Wanted" by the Free People to make sure he's dead or alive at least. The Free People should hunt him down to the very end, as an result, Shire, already known by almost all the High Command like Aragorn, Gandalf, and so forth, should have sent at least intellectual agents to every corner they know even if it's not inhabited, it goes without saying about Shire.




Many of the rangers went south with Elrond's sons to fight and met Aragorn in Rohan. I believe that is when the takeover began.

"he who defends everywhere defends nowhere."
I think it is sun tzu



Hisoka Morrow said:


> Oh yes, yet here comes to another big problem, couldn't Shire have any tunnel to call outer reinforcement such as those cigarette guilds? That's the point, why Shire got occupied till Frodo and his fellows returned. The leading powers of Free People, such as Gondor, just did nothing but letting Saruman sit tight at Shire, apart from Frodo and his fellows.
> 
> 
> Hmm..yes, yet how about those have contact with Shire from outer places, such as taboocos merchants?After Saruman took over Shire, these merchants's business must have suffered a lot, why didn't they call for help from those leading powers such as Gondor?



I think Gondor was busy. Intelligence and communication were actually very limited in Middle-earth.


One description that would fit the entirety of the free peoples realms of Middle-earth is, decentralization. It affects politics, culture, trade, knowledge, and many other areas. Because each group is allowed free will to govern themselves as they desire, there is little need to explore or go beyond their own boundaries on any adventures or conquests. Each group has cut out its own slice of Eden and are content to live and let live. Each group builds its society around what they love. Hobbits build an agrarian paradise, dwarves dig under their mountains for jewels, elves among their trees in Lorien, Rohan In the wild plains with their beloved horses. All are allowed the culture and society they love via decentralization.

Boromir said in Gondor few even knew where Rivendell was. In Rivendell, the house of Loremasters, Elrond said he had forgotten who Tom Bombadil was. Gildor tells the hobbits in the Shire that elves “have little concern with the ways of Hobbits, or of any other creature upon earth. Our paths theirs seldom.” The elves of Lothlorien remain deep in their woods and do not allow others to pass their borders. “We dwell now in the heart of the forest, and do not willingly have dealings with any other folk” says Haladir, “We did not know that any of you [hobbits] dwelt in Middle-earth.” Haladir was unaware of his own peoples in other areas west of the mountains. He said “it is said there are still havens of high elves…but where that may be...I do not…I have never been out of my land before.” The laws of Lorien did not allow any dwarves to enter their relam. And despite living close by, the men of Dunland were “amazed” at Erkenbrand and the Rohan soldiers who were kind to them after the battle at Helm's Deep because Saruman had told them they were cruel and burned captives alive.

Middle-earth remains largely unexplored to any outside the local areas they live in. The hobbits lived not much more than a day's ride from Bree [where other hobbits live] but seldom traveled that far, few had even been to Buckland. The Barrow Downs and Old Forest despite being not very far from the Shires southeastern border, was just “tales” to the hobbits. King Theoden of Rohan did not know of the ents, despite that Fangorn sits on the border of his realm. Boromir said fangorn was just “old wives tales'' told to children in Minas Tirith. No man of Gondor had been there for generations; they didn't go north of Rohan. Even of Isengard Theoden said, few men had entered in living memory. The rider of Rohan Eothain thought hobbits “are only a people in old songs and childs tales out of the North.” Eomer of Rohan was surprised to find that Galdriel was in Lorien, “then there is a lady in the golden wood, as old tales tell.” Many other examples could be given showing the effects of decentralization. There was among the free peoples, especially when not harassed by Sauron, a happiness, and contentment among them and a live and let live attitude. The only desire for expansion was only to recapture lost territory and never was there a desire to force others under your own rule.

One thing to consider [I dont know if anyone else has pointed this out] is that the takeover of the shire was done slow and from the inside. It was a domestic takeover and even some hobbits were involved. I would argue it resembles what is going on in America. Its like we were invaded and are now under a new government, but it was us, our citizens, our voters who did it.



Hisoka Morrow said:


> That's the point, why there're no other guys during the pipe-weeds commercial trade chain like resellers, wholesalers, and even customers notice that Shire has fallen?In particular, pipe-weeds had been obviously internationally popular.
> 
> 
> Yet if that's so, Bree, the at least certain customer of the pipe-weeds trade, should have noticed that Saruman took over Shire, unless Saruman kept every economic activity to work on still, yet JRRT mentioned Saruman made Shire a bloody-hell, under horrible economic depression. This means that Bree's pipe-weeds relatively commercial activity must have gotten inflicted.
> ...




Pipe weed was still produced, it was just controlled by the government. The hobbits in the shire did not get pipeweed or beer, but others did and the new government was the ones who benefited. They had a good harvest so if anything to outsiders, it increased its output.


“gatherers and sharers...going around counting and measuring and taking off to storage, supposedly for “fair distribution.”” Yet it just ends with, as one hobbit says, _“them getting more and we get less.”_ The hobbit Hob tells Merry “_we grows a lot of food, but we don’t rightly know what becomes of it._ Its all these “gatherers and sharers.” I recon, going round counting and measuring and taking off to storage. They do more gathering then sharing and we never see most of the stuff again”

I disagree the hobbits were kept ignorant, they were allowed to leave the shire all they wanted to go into the wide world. Gandalf selected certain hobbits to do so and even sent them to Mordor. What the rangers offered was a peaceful paradise and protection, a safe haven for those who desired to stay in that area of the shire. It was not ignorance of everything outside of there land, but even if it were, almost all of middle-earth was the same, as I argued a couple of posts up. Lothlorien was far more isolated and it would be hard to argue Galadriel was held in ignorance.

I love the internet, forums, electronics etc, and yet there is a great many things I chose to be ignorant of that is available. There is a great many things I act as a ranger and protect my children from. There are things I desire them to be ignorant of and I am sure everyone could come up with some ideas on there own.
In the end the purpose of the rangers was to protect people who could live happy, free, and simple. That is what Tolkien believed happiness was. I think the hobbits would agree that being ignorant of mumakil is better than having them stampede through town.


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## Ealdwyn (Oct 11, 2020)

1stvermont said:


> I disagree the hobbits were kept ignorant, they were allowed to leave the shire all they wanted to go into the wide world.


You may disagree, but those are Aragorn's _actual words_ during the Council of Elrond: that the task of the Dunedain is to keep the hobbits "simple" and, by doing so, keep them happy.

Keeping them ignorant and restricting their movements are two different things. Nobody said that their movements were restricted.



1stvermont said:


> What the rangers offered was a peaceful paradise and protection, a safe haven for those who desired to stay in that area of the shire. It was not ignorance of everything outside of there land,


Even if you think that was the right thing to do, it's only well and good as long as the rangers are able to maintain that level of protection. Unfortunately they weren't, due to the War, with the result that the hobbits were left vulnerable - more vulnerable than they would have been if they'd had some forewarning.

As for ignorance, they were unaware of the single greatest threat to their security in 3000 years! If that's not ignorance, I don't know what is.



1stvermont said:


> I love the internet, forums, electronics etc, and yet there is a great many things I chose to be ignorant of that is available. There is a great many things I act as a ranger and protect my children from. There are things I desire them to be ignorant of and I am sure everyone could come up with some ideas on there own.
> In the end the purpose of the rangers was to protect people who could live happy, free, and simple. That is what Tolkien believed happiness was. I think the hobbits would agree that being ignorant of mumakil is better than having them stampede through town.


But if there's a chance that they might stampede, however small, wouldn't you want some warning?

The internet comparision doesn't work, because - in your words - you _choose _to be ignorant, and you _choose_ what your children see. That's different from having the knowledge withheld from you. A better comparison would be to live in a society where the government controls the internet and the news coverage, so you only get state-sanctioned information. The state say they control the flow of information to "protect" you, but there could be any number of things going on in the outside world with the potential to impact your life. 



As I said above, the hobbits' ignorance and naivety was necessary to serve the plot. But Aragorn _deliberately_ kept them that way, and it was his conscious choice to do so that made them a pushover for Saruman.


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## 1stvermont (Oct 11, 2020)

Ealdwyn said:


> You may disagree, but those are Aragorn's _actual words_ during the Council of Elrond: that the task of the Dunedain is to keep the hobbits "simple" and, by doing so, keep them happy.
> 
> Keeping them ignorant and restricting their movements are two different things. Nobody said that their movements were restricted.



I agree with what you have said but differ on its meaning. Tolkien believed simple=happy, the ranger's job was to keep them happy and protected and allowed them to maintain a simple agrarian, libertarian society much as the one Tolkien was raised in. Because hobbits were happy, they lived in their own Eden-like existence and _they _did not care or desire to be troubled by the outside world. Bilbo was unique in this way and needed a push to even leave the Shire.

Perhaps I misunderstood. But I view the protection of the rangers as a _service offered_ free of charge. So to me, it is not in any way of keeping hobbits ignorant since they can leave or do as they wish. No hobbits were restricted from gaining knowledge or moving beyond the shire. Did rangers prevent bilbo from writing books and telling tales of the wide world outside? No ranger kept Frodo, bilbo or the other hobbits from exploring ME, in fact, they continued to protect them wherever they went in ME. I think I just fundamentally disagree with the conclusion that protection is ignorance. When Boromir died trying to save merry and pip was he really just trying to keep them ignorant of Isengard, Saruman, and the torture they would endure? when Aragorn Gimli and Legolas followed the hobbits was it to keep them ignorant of the same? when Gandalf told Frodo to keep the ring secret was that to prevent hobbits from gaining knowledge about the ring? To keep things simple in Tolkiens mind was a good thing and not connected to keeping people ignorant.




Ealdwyn said:


> Even if you think that was the right thing to do, it's only well and good as long as the rangers are able to maintain that level of protection. Unfortunately they weren't, due to the War, with the result that the hobbits were left vulnerable - more vulnerable than they would have been if they'd had some forewarning.
> 
> As for ignorance, they were unaware of the single greatest threat to their security in 3000 years! If that's not ignorance, I don't know what is.




I am a bit surprised you are taking the stance that offering one life with no reward and unknown [rangers -Tolkien held this up as honrabel] is in fact not a good thing.


This would be equal to saying having a military and police force are only good, so long as nothing bad ever happens. Besides if not for the rangers the hobbits would have never enjoyed there living. The takeover of the shire was short and dealt with soon. Tolkien was not a utopian, he believed in a fallen world here and in ME. Elrond wanted to send pip back to the shire foreseeing the evils that might come there, but Gandalf wanted him in the fellowship and that choice helped save ME. So the fate of ME or the Shire? if Me fell so then would the shire anyways. The rangers chose to go south and fight with Aragorn to help save the fate of ME. Yes this left the shire open but in fact saved the shire in the slightly longer run. The suffering that the simple [hobbits] suffered compared to knowledgable Gondorians, Roherim etc is not even close in comparison.





Ealdwyn said:


> But if there's a chance that they might stampede, however small, wouldn't you want some warning?
> 
> The internet comparision doesn't work, because - in your words - you _choose _to be ignorant, and you _choose_ what your children see. That's different from having the knowledge withheld from you. A better comparison would be to live in a society where the government controls the internet and the news coverage, so you only get state-sanctioned information. The state say they control the flow of information to "protect" you, but there could be any number of things going on in the outside world with the potential to impact your life.
> 
> As I said above, the hobbits' ignorance and naivety was necessary to serve the plot. But Aragorn _deliberately_ kept them that way, and it was his conscious choice to do so that made them a pushover for Saruman.



Perhaps then I disagree with what was meant by Aragorn keeping them simple. Once more it is not like he went around controlling knowledge or stories of outside dangers from being heard at the Green dragon by traveling dwarves and elves. Its not like he barred hobbits from going to the prancing pony. The hobbits themselves did not like to travel even the folk of Buckland were "queer" and better ignored when your in Hobbiton. But when your in Buckland the reverse is true.


They were a pushover and Gondor was not, but who suffered more? besides as I said the hobbits were part of the takeover and it was not a military takeover but from within.



Spoiler



Note: hidden by mods due to unallowed content

In America we have many warning us of the socialistic and communistic takeover of government policies, but it is still_ we_ that chose it via voting. We are warned but we ignore. It was a steady takeover like in America done from within slow government exspansion, it was not a military takeover



Besides, the hobbits were ready to be roused when the heroes come back.


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## Elthir (Oct 11, 2020)

Sorry to interject, but this, taken by itself . . .

*"If that's not ignorance, I don't know what is."*  [Ealdwyn]

. . . is an awesome sentence


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 11, 2020)

Let's try to keep current politics out of the discussion, please.


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## 1stvermont (Oct 11, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Let's try to keep current politics out of the discussion, please.



Apologies. I was just pointing out a connection between how the shire was transformed and I thought it a great analogy since neither the shire or my example were taken by military might by another country but transformed from within.



Elthir said:


> Sorry to interject, but this, taken by itself . . .
> 
> *"If that's not ignorance, I don't know what is."*  [Ealdwyn]
> 
> . . . is an awesome sentence



I was just wondering if you could be more specific and please enlighten me where I have gone astray. 

Thanks.

One thing I was thinking of and I might be mistaken [this is going off memory] but didn't Gandalf tell the hobbits when they heard trouble was in the shire that all their trials have prepared them for this. That he knew it was so and it was time for the hobbits to handle things themselves. 


Another thing I was thinking is that Aragorn passed a law that none of the big people could enter the shire without their sayso. I think it just points in another way to how the hobbits desired to be left alone by the outside world.


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## Elthir (Oct 11, 2020)

1stvermont said:


> I was just wondering if you could be more specific and please enlighten me where I have gone astray




Oh. My comment has nothing to do with this discussion or anyone going astray, it's just that *Ealdwyn's* sentence, alone by itself and as it is, made me chuckle a bit, that's all.

'Cause "not knowing" is one (if basic) definition of ignorance. Maybe it's just my odd sense of humour, but I liked the sentence itself, again, nothing to do with the discussion.

Sorry to interrupt


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## 1stvermont (Oct 12, 2020)

Elthir said:


> Oh. My comment has nothing to do with this discussion or anyone going astray, it's just that *Ealdwyn's* sentence, alone by itself and as it is, made me chuckle a bit, that's all.
> 
> 'Cause "not knowing" is one (if basic) definition of ignorance. Maybe it's just my odd sense of humour, but I liked the sentence itself, again, nothing to do with the discussion.
> 
> Sorry to interrupt



sorry for the misunderstanding.

Sorry for another post but I was just reading Tom Shippy's J.R.R Tolkien Author of the century. He quotes Aragorn saying of Butterbur [Bree] lives within "a day's march of foes that would freeze his heart, or lay his little town in ruin, if he were not guarded ceaselessly"

It makes me think of two things. If the men and hobbits of Bree and the shire were prepared and had knowledge of all the evils of the outside world [aginst there care/nature] what could they do? I would argue not a whole lot. They don't have the population and to change them into a warrior class of people in Tolkiens mind [who was often anti-war] would be a negative thing. 

Another thought I had was we do not have all the knowledge of our military, social forces, intelligence agency etc they do that for us much like the rangers. Yet just like the hobbits we could enter if we desired into areas/jobs, training, etc to gain that knowledge if we desired to. I am not sure if we are different then the hobbits.


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## Aldarion (Oct 13, 2020)

Hisoka Morrow said:


> Yeah, here're the big doubt I list
> 
> 1. Celebrities like Gandalf, Barliman and Bilbo have already make Shire not isolated anymore via commercial, adventure and all kinds of activities. This proved that Shire's role in ME has already a bit important on all kinds of aspects. Shire must not be so isolated that like some "Dark lands", after all, only the tobacco business is big enough to make Shire well-known enough, according to the popularity of smoking. When Saruman occupied Shire, all economic activities must.
> 2. Those non-combat personnel of the Northern Rangers were supposed to keep an eye on Shire, after all, at least the Prancy Pony is popular enough to be a tunnel of information, even if Aragorn left none of the combat personnel to defend their HQ in the Northern Battlefield. Succeeding point 1, these Northern Rangers non combat personnel might be the most possible to do this job due to the important economic role of Shire, at least on the business of tobacco.
> 3. Saruman is a big guy among the Dark Forces like Sauron, thus unless his track gets lost for centuries like Sauron getting defeated by the Last Alliance before, he must get "Wanted" by the Free People to make sure he's dead or alive at least. The Free People should hunt him down to the very end, as an result, Shire, already known by almost all the High Command like Aragorn, Gandalf, and so forth, should have sent at least intellectual agents to every corner they know even if it's not inhabited, it goes without saying about Shire.



I think you are looking at Middle Earth as if it were modern world. But look at how little English / Anglo-Saxons knew about goings-on in Byzantine Empire: in fact, it took Byzantium _calling onto Pope for help_ for the West _in general_ to notice anything is wrong. And that is in a world far more populated and with far denser and more extensive trade connections than Middle Earth.

Gondor knew that Shire existed and _that's it_ (beyond what Denethor could gleam from Palantirs). To them, Hobbits were as mythological as elves and dwarves to us.


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## Alcuin (Oct 15, 2020)

A couple of niggling points…

First (moving backward in the conversation) Anglo-Saxon England was not isolated from the Continent nor from civilization in general. True, the focus of Britain was no longer Continental as it had been during the (West) Roman Imperial period, having been turned northward toward the Germanic world, which though more primitive was itself turning to the old Roman model (cf. Charlemagne, who was crowned Emperor of the Romans in AD 800 by Pope Leo III), but it had not abandoned the wider world. I recall reading an account of a Byzantine princess, a daughter of the Emperor of Constantinople, who was wed to an Anglo-Saxon prince in a marriage meant to draw the Anglo-Saxons closer to the Byzantine world and cement, perhaps, a future alliance. (The Byzantines contested Charlemagne’s title “Emperor of the Romans”, and having allies of the Eastern Roman Empire behind him would benefit them in the event of conflict; and I suppose there were other reasons for their interests, too.) The account was written by the Anglo-Saxon prince’s mother, who complained that the princess refused to eat with her hands like the Anglo-Saxons, but insisted upon using a _fork_, which the Anglo-Saxons considered novel and, ironically enough, _rude_. Alas, the poor girl did not survive the rougher climate of northwestern Europe in its Dark Age, and died without issue, the prince taking another wife after her untimely demise. 

I think the purposes of the Dúnedain Rangers of Arnor are misunderstood. Arnor had collapsed as a kingdom, but the Dúnedain survived, much reduced in numbers and power. As I understand matters (as I said before), they were living in the Angle between the Mitheithel and the Bruinen, which was outside the region they had mostly populated before the fall of Fornost but close to Rivendell for protection. The Rangers were the knights of that people, the warrior noblemen. Each was no doubt supported by a large number of “peasants”, if I may use that word: common folk involved in everyday business and farming, who provided the means and equipment for their adventures. These Rangers served several purposes. First, they screened and defended what amounted to a hidden refuge for the surviving Dúnedain. More importantly, though, they maintained the claim of the Dúnedain of Arnor over their old realm: this they constantly patrolled to keep out pests (such as wolves) and aggressors (such as Orcs). They remained “hidden”, but a better phrase would be _they became forgotten_, since during the Chieftainship of Aranarth son of Arvedui, the first Chieftain, everyone who met a Ranger would recognize him as a Dúnedain knight of old Arnor (Arthedain). But over time, memories faded, and the Rangers were just a wandering curiosity, and the people of what had been Arnor, mainly the Bree-folk and the Shire-folk, forgot who they were, so that Butterbur cites an adage of Bree to Frodo: “There's no accounting for East and West, … meaning the Rangers and the Shire-folk.” 

Just as their forefathers defended Arnor against invaders and dangerous creatures, the Rangers continued this work. The Shire (and Bree) became places of prosperity and remaining “urban” or semi-rural life, potential centers for the reconstitution of the Dúnedain kingdom; and eventually, they did serve as those centers, sources of income and wealth for the Fourth Age descendants of the Dúnedain. But in the meantime, all the Hobbits of both the Shire and Bree and all the Men of Bree came to regard the Rangers as odd wandering folk, and remembered nothing of their origin. 

These people can hardly be blamed for being “simple folk … free from care and fear.” Look at us! We read this Tolkien board, post here in peace, and enjoy the fruits of the labors and _lives_ of those who have gone before us, while outside our protected boundaries wars rage, civilians are slaughtered, and criminal gangs rule nations. We ignore the warning signs of the decay of our civilization and the deliberate, systematic undermining of its foundations, in some cases cheering on the vermin that accomplish it; and unlike Gondor, “evil arts [are] practised …, [and] the Nameless One … named in honour”. 

Do not condemn the Rangers for maintaining the peace of their former realm, for thereby they both maintained their claim over Arnor of old and defended their populace and what remained of their civilization until both could be raised again after more than a thousand years. Nor should any condemn the Shire-folk or Bree-folk: we, like they, are mostly ignorant of what defends us, and of what threatens us.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Oct 17, 2020)

Alcuin said:


> ...ut over time, memories faded, and the Rangers were just a wandering curiosity, and the people of what had been Arnor, mainly the Bree-folk and the Shire-folk, forgot who they were, so that Butterbur cites an adage of Bree to Frodo: “There's no accounting for East and West, … meaning the Rangers and the Shire-folk.”...


Hmmm....yeah, you're right, as market demand for professional military forces around Shire decreased, Rangers're supposed to start becoming small guys, making them less well-known. As an result, their pronounced message would hardly receive wide reflection and alerts. And those vendors in charge of the Ranger's logistic were the similarly infamous as well. 



Aldarion said:


> ...I think you are looking at Middle Earth as if it were modern world. But look at how little English / Anglo-Saxons knew about goings-on in Byzantine Empire: in fact, it took Byzantium _calling onto Pope for help_ for the West _in general_ to notice anything is wrong. And that is in a world far more populated and with far denser and more extensive trade connections than Middle Earth...


I thought the tobaccos corporation was as tremendous as the silk in history. Just like the Byzantine-Persia War, the cut-off of silk led to the Islami's uprising. Well...even if that's so, it seems I really overestimate the relativity between areas in ME XD



1stvermont said:


> ...ne description that would fit the entirety of the free peoples realms of Middle-earth is, decentralization. It affects politics, culture, trade, knowledge, and many other areas. Because each group is allowed free will to govern themselves as they desire...


Oh yes, I forgot it's already the 3rd Age, superpower like Numenor hardly exist, even the strongest among all the states of 3rd Age ME, Gondor, could even hardly as"world dominant" as Numenor. Thus, the ME's globalization must have decreased.


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## Aldarion (Oct 18, 2020)

Hisoka Morrow said:


> I thought the tobaccos corporation was as tremendous as the silk in history. Just like the Byzantine-Persia War, the cut-off of silk led to the Islami's uprising. Well...even if that's so, it seems I really overestimate the relativity between areas in ME XD



Relativity was one, awareness was another. Roman Empire was impacted by expansion of China despite having only the vaguest of ideas about it.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Oct 24, 2020)

Aldarion said:


> ...Relativity was one, awareness was another...


We all know the Gladden Fields located in the heartlands of Gondor while Free People's intellectual agents couldn't find it's ambushed orcs after the Last Alliance. We can also assume all Shire communication institutes had been under control by Saruman. Most of all, JRRT didn't mention the high command of Free People notice this or not. 
Ahhh yes, even if in modern age, military reaction takes days if, it goes without saying in ME. Even if the wars between my country and PROC, the US reinforcement won't be able to come just in time, OFC like Shire, I and my fellows are on my own XD. Maybe the Free People had send armed forces to save Shire far after Frodo and his fellows kick Saruman's ass.


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## Alcuin (Oct 25, 2020)

A few minor points:

Gladden Fields was well outside any territory controlled by the Dúnedain: it was neither in Gondor nor in Arnor. The closest realm to Gladden Fields was Lothlórien, then under the rulership of Amroth, but it was “far behind”, while the realm of Thranduil was still “four days” distant. The “heartland” of Gondor was probably the along lower Anduin: Ithilien, Anórien, Lebennin, and Belfalas. The Orcs that attacked Isildur and his guard were assailed by “Orcs of the Mountains” led and strengthened by “grim servants of Barad-dûr, sent out long before to watch the passes” of the Misty Mountains. (There was apparently a minor pass at the top of the source of the Gladden River. All these citations are from _Unfinished Tales_, “The Disaster of the Gladden Fields”.) These Orcs and their commanders were unaware of the outcome of the War of the Last Alliance two years before. (_Op. cit._, footnote 20)
Saruman did indeed control official communication in the Shire through Lotho Sackville-Baggins, his principle agent, who had converted the old Post Service to carry “secret messages”. (See “Scouring of the Shire” in _RotK_.)
There was no “high command” of the Free Peoples. The closest that might approach that were the Council of Elrond and the Captains of the West at the “Last Debate”. The Council of Elrond was a unique and singular event that not even Elrond summoned, but that he said was fated to be, implying the will of Eru operating through the people of Middle-earth. The Captains of the West at the “Last Debate” probably approaches a combination of the (King’s) Councils of Gondor and Arnor, but again, it was an ad hoc, unusual event, determined more by the needs of the times, though it no doubt lasted until “Many Partings” when the Rangers of Arnor and the Sons of Elrond returned north.
There were no “armed forces” to send to the Shire. The Rangers had returned, but they likely returned to their own homes (presumably in the Angle between Greyflood and Loudwater near Rivendell) before they resumed their patrols.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Oct 30, 2020)

Alcuin said:


> ...There was no “high command” of the Free Peoples...


Alright alright, just let me prune it as high command of each Free People's factions😅😅😅


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