# Did the Hobbits go to Valinor to die?



## Khôr’nagan (Dec 25, 2003)

It is the belief of two of my friends that Frodo and Biblo and all were going to Valinor to die. Regardless of my attempts to disuade them from this assumption, they refused to listen to me. I was wondering if there is any actual verity in that belief, and thus consult those here who may know better than I.


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## BlackCaptain (Dec 25, 2003)

Well they weren't going to Valinor in order to die... Inevitably, yes, they would die, and they knew this. But they just really went to the undying lands because of what the Ring had done to them and their bodies... it was beyond anything that Middle Earth could do to heal them so they went to the U.L. to be free of earthly pains. 

... i think...


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## Khôr’nagan (Dec 25, 2003)

That's what I had told them, but I guess they just dumb or something...


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## Maeglin (Dec 25, 2003)

No reason for the "....i think...." in there BlackCaptain, you nailed it.


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## Khôr’nagan (Dec 26, 2003)

And another thing: My friends also seem to be obsessed with the idea the Frodo and Sam are homosexually inclined. Unbelievable, isn't it? I cannot even begin to describe how little they seem to understand Tolkien. Nor can I even begin to debate how ridiculous that claim is, as there's so much information, facts, etc. against it that I don't even know where to begin!


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## Húrin Thalion (Dec 26, 2003)

Khôr’nagan said:


> And another thing: My friends also seem to be obsessed with the idea the Frodo and Sam are homosexually inclined. Unbelievable, isn't it? I cannot even begin to describe how little they seem to understand Tolkien. Nor can I even begin to debate how ridiculous that claim is, as there's so much information, facts, etc. against it that I don't even know where to begin!



Well, really why would that be so impossible? No seriously, it doesn't fit in with Tolkien's view of the world as I know it. They did not travel to Valinor to die, that was not the purpose of the journey, that would be the healing of their bodies and spirits. But surely, they wanted to die in peace and bliss?


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## Inderjit S (Dec 26, 2003)

> He appears at first to have had no sense of guilt (III 224-5); he was restored to sanity and peace. But then he thought that he had given his life in sacrifice: he expected to die very soon. But he did not, and one can observe the disquiet growing in him. Arwen was the first to observe the signs, and gave him her jewel for comfort, and thought of a way of healing him. Slowly he fades 'out of the picture', saying and doing less and less. I think it is clear on reflection to an attentive reader that when his dark times came upon him and he was conscious of being 'wounded by knife sting and tooth and a long burden' (III 268) it was not only nightmare memories of past horrors that afflicted him, but also unreasoning self-reproach: he saw himself and all that he done as a broken failure. 'Though I may come to the Shire, it will not seem the same, for I shall not be the same.' That was actually a temptation out of the Dark, a last flicker of pride: desire to have returned as a 'hero', not content with being a mere instrument of good. And it was mixed with another temptation, blacker and yet (in a sense) more merited, for however that may be explained, he had not in fact cast away the Ring by a voluntary act: he was tempted to regret its destruction, and still to desire it. 'It is gone for ever, and now all is dark and empty', he said as he wakened from his sickness in 1420.
> 'Alas! there are some wounds that cannot be wholly cured', said Gandalf (III 268) – not in Middle-earth. Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to heal him – if that could be done, before he died. He would have eventually to 'pass away': no mortal could, or can, abide for ever on earth, or within Time. So he went both to a purgatory and to a reward, for a while: a period of reflection and peace and a gaining of a truer understanding of his position in littleness and in greatness, spent still in Time amid the natural beauty of 'Arda Unmarred', the Earth unspoiled by evil.
> Bilbo went too. No doubt as a completion of the plan due to Gandalf himself. Gandalf had a very great affection for Bilbo, from the hobbit's childhood onwards. His companionship was really necessary for Frodo's sake – it is difficult to imagine a hobbit, even one who had been through Frodo's experiences, being really happy even in an earthly paradise without a companion of his own kind, and Bilbo was the person that Frodo most loved. (Cf III 252 lines 12 to 21 and 263 lines 1-2.) But he also needed and deserved the favour on his own account. He bore still the mark of the Ring that needed to be finally erased : a trace of pride and personal possessiveness. Of course he was old and confused in mind, but it was still a revelation of the 'black mark' when he said in Rivendell (III 265) 'What's become of my ring, Frodo, that you took away?'; and when he was reminded of what had happened, his immediate reply was: 'What a pity! I should have liked to see it again'. As for reward for his pan, it is difficult to feel that his life would be complete without an experience of 'pure Elvishness', and the opportunity of hearing the legends and histories in full the fragments of which had so delighted him.
> It is clear, of course, that the plan had actually been made and concerted (by Arwen, Gandalf and others) before Arwen spoke. But Frodo did not immediately take it in; the implications would slowly be understood on reflection. Such a journey would at first seem something not necessarily to be feared, even as something to look forward to – so long as undated and postponable. His real desire was hobbitlike (and humanlike) just 'to be himself again and get back to the old familiar life that had been interrupted. Already on the journey back from Rivendell he suddenly saw that was not for him possible. Hence his cry 'Where shall I find rest?' He knew the answer, and Gandalf did not reply. As for Bilbo, it is probable that Frodo did not at first understand what Arwen meant by 'he will not again make any long journey save one'. At any rate he did not associate it with his own case. When Arwen spoke (in TA 3019) he was still young, not yet 51, and Bilbo 78 years older. But at Rivendell he came to understand things more clearly. The conversations he had there are not reported, but enough is revealed in Elrond's farewell III 267. From the onset of the first sickness (Oct. 5, 3019) Frodo must have been thinking about 'sailing', though still resisting a final decision — to go with Bilbo, or to go at all. It was no doubt after his grievous illness in March 3020 that his mind was made up.


 _The Letters of Tolkien; Letter 246_


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## Barliman Butterbur (Dec 26, 2003)

Khôr’nagan said:


> It is the belief of two of my friends that Frodo and Biblo and all were going to Valinor to die. Regardless of my attempts to disuade them from this assumption, they refused to listen to me. I was wondering if there is any actual verity in that belief, and thus consult those here who may know better than I.



Just show them the actual text. If they still don't want to get it, find two more friends!

—Lotho


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## Barliman Butterbur (Dec 26, 2003)

BlackCaptain said:


> Well they weren't going to Valinor in order to die... Inevitably, yes, they would die, and they knew this. But they just really went to the undying lands because of what the Ring had done to them and their bodies... it was beyond anything that Middle Earth could do to heal them so they went to the U.L. to be free of earthly pains.
> 
> ... i think...



Whoa! For over 30 years my understanding has been that Frodo, Bilbo (and Sam and Gimli for that matter) would share in not only healing, but immortality in Valinor. Something about the good sunshine and clean air... 

You mean after all these years I could be (slowly inhales, girds loins) — 
*wrong?* Say it ain't so! Anyway, I would like someone to give me the straight dope on why these four stalwarts wouldn't become as immortal as anyone else in Valinor.

—Lotho


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## Barliman Butterbur (Dec 26, 2003)

Khôr’nagan said:


> And another thing: My friends also seem to be obsessed with the idea the Frodo and Sam are homosexually inclined. Unbelievable, isn't it? I cannot even begin to describe how little they seem to understand Tolkien. Nor can I even begin to debate how ridiculous that claim is, as there's so much information, facts, etc. against it that I don't even know where to begin!



Don't begin. It isn't worth it. If they need to believe this, don't get yourself in a twist trying to illuminate their understanding.

—Lotho


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## Gothmog (Dec 26, 2003)

Lotho_Pimple said:


> Whoa! For over 30 years my understanding has been that Frodo, Bilbo (and Sam and Gimli for that matter) would share in not only healing, but immortality in Valinor. Something about the good sunshine and clean air...
> 
> You mean after all these years I could be (slowly inhales, girds loins) —
> *wrong?* Say it ain't so! Anyway, I would like someone to give me the straight dope on why these four stalwarts wouldn't become as immortal as anyone else in Valinor.
> ...


The Silmarillion: AKALLABÊTH


> 'The Doom of the World,' they said, 'One alone can change who made it. And were you so to voyage that escaping all deceits and snares you came indeed to Aman, the Blessed Realm, little would it profit you. For it is not the land of Manwë that makes its people deathless, but the Deathless the dwell therein have hallowed the land; and there you would but wither and grow weary the sooner, as moths in a light too strong and steadfast.


 Therefore the fate of Mortals would not be changed by going to the West. All that could be hoped for was that Bilbo and Frodo would find true peace and healing before they died. This was something that for Frodo at least was impossible in ME.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Dec 26, 2003)

Gothmog said:


> The Silmarillion: AKALLABÊTH Therefore the fate of Mortals would not be changed by going to the West. All that could be hoped for was that Bilbo and Frodo would find true peace and healing before they died. This was something that for Frodo at least was impossible in ME.



Good Lord! So I have to give up my fantasy of immortality for the lads! I'll have to talk to Tolkien about this, that just won't do!

—Lotho


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## Inderjit S (Dec 27, 2003)

Lembas were said to (if eaten too much) increase the desire for immortality amongst mortals (Dangweth Pengoloð; Of Lembas; HoME 12) but, I don't think any of them would have wanted to live forever, they may have had the inherent mortal desire to leave the circle of the world. It is best not to interfere with people's fates. The ability to die and leave Arda as a intrinsic part of human (or mortal) nature.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Dec 27, 2003)

Inderjit S said:


> Lembas were said to (if eaten too much) increase the desire for immortality amongst mortals



In the movie version, Pippin ate 4 pieces and only got gas. 

I suppose it's fun to speculate and extrapolate _as if_ the world of Middle-earth were real — but let us remember: _it's a *story* folks!_ It's fiction, and not the Divine Word or Realm of God! Not even the Divine Word of Tolkien. It's imaginary. Sometimes I get worried about many of my friends in the forum, because they react as fully as if the place was real. It's a book, friends, and now it's a movie. And if history is any indication, there will be remakes down the line. But it will never be real, and I caution those who get so intensely emotional over things as if it were (not anyone in particular).

—Lotho


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## Inderjit S (Dec 28, 2003)

1. Whoever said (or implied) that it was real.

2. What evidence have you got that can confirm that it wasn't real.


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## Úlairi (Dec 28, 2003)

Inderjit S said:


> 1. Whoever said (or implied) that it was real.
> 
> 2. What evidence have you got that can confirm that it wasn't real.



Lol, long live the Middle-Earthian Society!


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## Beorn (Dec 28, 2003)

I prefer Letter 154:


> But in this story it is supposed that there may be certain rare exceptions or accommodations (legitimately supposed? there always seem to be exceptions); and so certain 'mortals', who have played some great part in Elvish affairs, may pass with the Elves to Elvenhome. Thus Frodo (by the express gift of Arwen) and Bilbo, and eventually Sam (as adumbrated by Frodo); and as a unique exception Gimli the Dwarf, as friend of Legolas and 'servant' of Galadriel.
> 
> I have said nothing about it in this book, but the mythical idea underlying is that for mortals, since their 'kind' cannot be changed for ever, this is strictly only a temporary reward: a healing and redress of suffering. They cannot abide for ever, and though they cannot return to mortal earth, they can and will 'die' – of free will, and leave the world. (In this setting the return of Arthur would be quite impossible, a vain imagining.)


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## Úlairi (Dec 28, 2003)

Indeed, I should always refer to _Letters_ before I consider any other quotes.


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## Illuvatar (Dec 29, 2003)

Lotho_Pimple said:


> In the movie version, Pippin ate 4 pieces and only got gas.
> 
> I suppose it's fun to speculate and extrapolate _as if_ the world of Middle-earth were real — but let us remember: _it's a *story* folks!_ It's fiction, and not the Divine Word or Realm of God! Not even the Divine Word of Tolkien. It's imaginary. Sometimes I get worried about many of my friends in the forum, because they react as fully as if the place was real. It's a book, friends, and now it's a movie. And if history is any indication, there will be remakes down the line. But it will never be real, and I caution those who get so intensely emotional over things as if it were (not anyone in particular).
> 
> —Lotho


Accroding to some theories about quantum physics, that's not entirely true


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## Úlairi (Dec 29, 2003)

Illuvatar said:


> Accroding to some theories about quantum physics, that's not entirely true



So what, the Uncertainty Principle and the occurence of random events could create ME! Well, then it is not beyond our imaginations after all. But froma religious perspective, the beginning (where the primary god exists), must be the stem of all parallel universes.


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## Khôr’nagan (Dec 30, 2003)

I demand to know why there can be parallel universes and not perpendicular universes. 

But Lotho_Pimple, don't go bursting people's bubbles, now... Some might think Middle-Earth is real. Would you really want to destroy their fantasy?

Thanks for the quotes from Tolkien's letters. If these can't convince them that the weren't going to die (immediately, as they believe), nothing can.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Dec 31, 2003)

Khôr’nagan said:


> I demand to know why there can be parallel universes and not perpendicular universes.



*HA HA HA!!!* Of course there can be perpendicular universes, you old geometry maven you! And multi-tangential and ellipsoid and deep-fried too if you want them! 



> But Lotho, don't go bursting people's bubbles, now... Some might think Middle-Earth is real. Would you really want to destroy their fantasy?



Well, not really! But sometimes people, like old salesmen, never die: they just *lose their grip...*



> Thanks for the quotes from Tolkien's letters. If these can't convince them that they weren't going to die (immediately, as they believe), nothing can.



All we can do is our best.

Lotho


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## Barliman Butterbur (Dec 31, 2003)

Beorn said:


> Tolkien: (referring to the ME Heros who went to Valinor) ... the mythical idea underlying is that for mortals, since their 'kind' cannot be changed for ever, this is strictly only a temporary reward: a healing and redress of suffering. They cannot abide for ever, and though they cannot return to mortal earth, they can and will 'die' – of free will, and leave the world.



Thanks for that quote, Beorn, that nails it, doesn't it! I see I'll have to expand my knowledge of Tolkieniana by acquiring his letters!

Lotho


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## Inderjit S (Dec 31, 2003)

> The passing 'oversea' to Eressëa (an isle within sight of Aman) was permitted to, and indeed urged upon, all Elves remaining in Middle-earth after the downfall of Morgoth in Angband. This really marked the beginning of the Dominion of Men, though there was (in our view) a long twilight period between the downfall of Morgoth and the final overthrow of Sauron: lasting, that is, through the Second and Third Ages. But at the end of the Second Age came the great Catastrophe (by an intervention of Eru that foreshadowed, as it were, the End of Arda): the annihilation of Númenor, and the 'removal' of Aman from the physical world. The passing 'oversea', therefore, of Mortals after the Catastrophe - which is recorded in The Lord of the Rings - is not quite the same thing. It was in any case a special grace. An opportunity for dying according to the original plan for the unfallen: they went to a state in which they could acquire greater knowledge and peace of mind, and being healed of all hurts both of mind and body, could at last surrender themselves: die of free will, and even of desire, in estel. A thing which Aragorn achieved without any such aid


 _Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth_ (HoME 10)

In regards to Middle-Earth/our world



> `Middle-earth', by the way, is not a name of a never-never land without relation to the world we live in (like the Mercury of Edison). It is just a use of Middle English middel-erde (or erthe), altered from Old English Middangeard : the name for the inhabbited lands of Men `between the seas'. And though I have not attempted to relate the shape of the mountains and land-masses to what geologists may say or surmise abouth the nearer past, imaginary this `history' is supposed to take place in a period of the actual Old World of this planet.


 _Letter 165; Letters of Tolkien_ 



> But Lotho_Pimple, don't go bursting people's bubbles, now... Some might think Middle-Earth is real. Would you really want to destroy their fantasy?



Middle-Earth may or may not exist. It is most probable that it doesn't (or didn't) exist but neither I or anyone else has the _answers_. Millions of people believe in a ubiquitous, omni-present being, who we cannot see and have no substantial evidence for. Reality is relative. Many people who beleive in fantasy worlds can be perfectly in sync with _reality_ despite the supposed parody that such deliberations may entail. 

There is a problem of course, with claiming Middle-Earth existed/exists. Tolkien claims Middle-Earth is our earth, on several occasions.



> am historically minded. Middle-earth is not an imaginary world. The name is the modern form (appearing in the 13th century and still in use) of midden-erd > middel-erd, an ancient name for the oikoumenç, the abiding place of Men, the objectively real world, in use specifically opposed to imaginary worlds (as Fairyland) or unseen worlds (as Heaven or Hell). The theatre of my tale is this earth, the one in which we now live, but the historical period is imaginary. The essentials of that abiding place are all there (at any rate for inhabitants of N.W. Europe), so naturally it feels familiar, even if a little glorified by the enchantment of distance in time.


 _Letter #183_ 



> Hobbits are an unobtrusive but very ancient people, more numerous formerly than they are today.... Even in ancient days they were, as a rule, shy of 'the Big Folk', as they call us, and now they avoid us with dismay and are becoming hard to find."


 'Prolouge'

(Something similair is stated in 'The Hobbit')



> It is plain indeed that in spite of later estrangement Hobbits are relatives of ours: far nearer to us than elves, or even than Dwarves. Of old they spoke the languages of Men, after their own fashion, and liked and disliked much the same things as Men did. But what exactly our relationship is can no longer be discovered.... Those days, the Third Age of Middle-earth are now long past, and the shape of all lands has been changed


 'Prologue'

We are now said to be in the 'Seventh age' (each age lasting about 3,000 years.) 



> To turn, if I may, to the 'human Touches' and the matter of when I started. That is rather like asking of Man when language started. It was an inevitable, though conditionable, evolvement of the birth-given. It has been always with me: the sensibility to linguistic pattern which affects me emotionally like colour or music; and the passionate love of growing things; and the deep response to legends (for lack of a better word) that have what I would call the North-western temper and temperature. In any case if you want to write a tale of this sort you must consult your roots, and a man of the North-west of the Old World will set his heart and the action of his tale in an imaginary world of that air, and that situation : with the Shoreless Sea of his innumerable ancestors to the West, and the endless lands (out of which enemies mostly come) to the East. Though, in addition, his heart may remember, even if he has been cut off from all oral tradition, the rumour all along the coasts of the Men out of the Sea.


 _Letter 163; Letters of Tolkien_ 



> Not Nordic, please! A word I personally dislike; it is associated, though of French origin, with racialist theories. Geographically Northern is usually better. But examination will show that even this is inapplicable (geographically or spiritually) to 'Middle-earth'. This is an old word, not invented by me, as reference to a dictionary such as the Shorter Oxford will show. It meant the habitable lands of our world, set amid the surrounding Ocean. The action of the story takes place in the North-west of 'Middle-earth', equivalent in latitude to the coastlands of Europe and the north shores of the Mediterranean. But this is not a purely 'Nordic' area in any sense. If Hobbiton and Rivendell are taken (as intended) to be at about the latitude of Oxford, then MinasTirith, 600 miles south, is at about the latitude of Florence. The Mouths of Anduin and the ancient city of Pelargir are at about the latitude of ancient Troy.
> Auden has asserted that for me 'the North is a sacred direction'. That is not true. The North-west of Europe, where I (and most of my ancestors) have lived, has my affection, as a man's home should. I love its atmosphere, and know more of its histories and languages than I do of other pans; but it is not 'sacred', nor does it exhaust my affections. I have, for instance, a particular love for the Latin language, and among its descendants for Spanish. That it is untrue for my story, a mere reading of the synopses should show. The North was the seat of the fortresses of the Devil. The progress of the tale ends in what is far more like the re-establishment of an effective Holy Roman Empire with its seat in Rome than anything that would be devised by a 'Nordic'.


 _Letter #294; Letters of Tolkien_ 



> May I say that all this is 'mythical', and not any kind of new religion or vision. As far as I know it is merely an imaginative invention, to express, in the only way I can, some of my (dim) apprehensions of the world. All I can say is that, if it were 'history', it would be difficult to fit the lands and events (or 'cultures') into such evidence as we possess, archaeological or geological, concerning the nearer or remoter part of what is now called Europe; though the Shire, for instance, is expressly stated to have been in this region (I p. 12). I could have fitted things in with greater versimilitude, if the story had not become too far developed, before the question ever occurred to me. I doubt if there would have been much gain; and I hope the, evidently long but undefined, gap# in time between the Fall of Barad-dûr and our Days is sufficient for 'literary credibility', even for readers acquainted with what is known or surmised of 'pre-history'.
> I have, I suppose, constructed an imaginary time, but kept my feet on my own mother-earth for place. I prefer that to the contemporary mode of seeking remote globes in 'space'. However curious, they are alien, and not lovable with the love of blood-kin. Middle-earth is (by the way & if such a note is necessary) not my own invention. It is a modernization or alteration (N[ew] E[nglish] Dictionary] 'a perversion') of an old word for the inhabited world of Men, the oikoumenē: middle because thought of vaguely as set amidst the encircling Seas and (in the northern-imagination) between ice of the North and the fire of the South. O.English middan-geard, mediaeval E. midden-erd, middle-erd. Many reviewers seem to assume that Middle-earth is another planet!
> Theologically (if the term is not too grandiose) I imagine the picture to be less dissonant from what some (including myself) believe to be the truth. But since I have deliberately written a tale, which is built on or out of certain 'religious' ideas, but is not an allegory of them (or anything else), and does not mention them overtly, still less preach them, I will not now depart from that mode, and venture on theological disquisition for which I am not fitted


 _Letter #211; Letters of Tolkien_ 

footnote to Letter #211; " I imagine the gap to be about 6000 years : that is we are now at the end of the Fifth Age, if the Ages were of about the same length as S.A. and T.A. But they have, I think, quickened; and I imagine we are actually at the end of the Sixth Age, or in the Seventh."


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## Úlairi (Dec 31, 2003)

In fact, they really didn't have a choice to go there to die or not, especially according to _Morgoth's Ring_. It says that even if Mortals were permitted to Valinor, and perhaps given the gift of their eternal life from the Valar, only the _hröa_ would truly receive such a blessing. It says that a Mortal being, living in Valinor, but not given the gift of eternal life for the _hröa_, would be a 'fleeting thing'. His life would pass in no time, it would be a small existence to all the immortals living there. But if Bilbo and Frodo were given the gift of eternal life for their _hröar_, then this would indeed happen.



> _HoME X: Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed: Text XI: Aman and Mortal Men_
> *"But if any should ask: why could not in Aman the blessing of longevity be granted to him, as it was to the Eldar? This must be answered. Because this would bring joy to the Eldar, their nature being different from that of Men. The nature of an Elvish fëa was to endure the world to the end, and an Elvish hröa was also longeval by nature; so that an Elvish fëa finding that its hröa endured with it, supporting its indwelling and remaining unwearied in bodily delight, would have increased and more lasting joy [sic]. Some indeed of the Eldar doubt that any special grace or belssing was accorded to them, other than addmitance to Aman. For they hold that the failure of their hröar to endure in vitality unwearied as long as their fëar - a process which was not observed until the later ages - is due to the Marring of Arda, and comes of the Shadow, and the taint of Melkor that touches all the matter (or hröa) of Arda, if not indeed of all Ëa. So that all that happened in Aman was that this weakness of the Elvish hröar did not develop in the health of Aman and the Light of the Trees.
> 
> But let us suppose that the 'blessing of Aman' was also accorded to Men. What then? Would a great good be done to them? Their bodies would still come swiftly to full growth. In the seventh part of a year a Man could be born and become full-grown, as swiftly in Aman a bird would hatch and fly from the nest. But then it would not wither of age but would endure in vigour and in delight of bodily living. But what of that Man's fëa? Its nature and 'doom' could not be changed, neither by the health of Mana nor by the will of Manwë himself. Yet it is (as the Eldar hold) its nature and doom under the will of Eru that it should not endure Arda for long, but should depart and go elsewither, returning maybe direct to Eru for another fate or purpose that is beyond the knowledge or guess of the Valar.
> ...



So, yeah, Tolkien's answer to that question would have been yes, they did go to Valinor to die.


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