# Three, seven, nine and one



## ILLOTRTM (Dec 3, 2002)

Three rings for the elven kings under the sky, seven for the.... well, I'm assuming mosty of you know the old rhyme . Anyway, I was just wondering, and I don't have the appendices hear to look it up with, is there any particular reason there were twenty? Or for that matter, any reason there were three, seven, nine? (Of course there's a reason there was just one!  ) Or were they just all a bunch of random numbers? My friend noted a while ago that SEVEN to the dwarf lords and the SEVEn dwarfs, but we both had a strong feeling that they had nothing to do with each other


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## Maeglin (Dec 3, 2002)

I think the 3 is for the 3 elven kings of each tribe of elves: the Teleri, the Vanyar, and the Noldor. I can't be sure, its just a theory, but it seems to make sense to me.

Just my 2 cents.


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## Anamatar IV (Dec 3, 2002)

Gil-Galad, Galadriel, and Cirdan were all of the Noldor so that theory is out


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## Maeglin (Dec 3, 2002)

ha ha yeah but its still a good theory, too bad you had to notice that and ruin it.


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## ILLOTRTM (Dec 3, 2002)

Yeah, how about putting down your own theory instead of throwing out others?


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## Proudfoots (Dec 3, 2002)

Well, it is certainly easier to keep track of then "11 rings for elven kings under the sky, 23 for the dwarven lords..., 89 for the mortal men"

and it sounds good, odd numbers are good, for if they had been even, then there would n't have been a ruling ring

'foots


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## Anamatar IV (Dec 3, 2002)

im not gonna post a theory because there is probably something about this in the letters or something that I havent read and Ithrynluin or Grond will come prove me wrong


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## Ithrynluin (Dec 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Glorfindel1187 _
> *I think the 3 is for the 3 elven kings of each tribe of elves: the Teleri, the Vanyar, and the Noldor. I can't be sure, its just a theory, but it seems to make sense to me.
> 
> Just my 2 cents. *



This is interesting Glorfindel, though probably untrue.

At the time of the making of the three Elven rings, the (high) elven kings of each "tribe" were:
- Noldor: Gil-Galad, the last High King of the Noldor
- Vanyar: Ingwë (not in ME)
- Teleri: uncertain if they had a High King at all. Possible candidates : Cirdan, or Olwë of Alqualondë (also not in ME) 

However, it is perhaps a bit strange that Celebrimbor (a Noldorin smith) would make the rings for the other 2 kindreds, more likely he made them for his own people, to enhance their knowledge and power...But who knows.
Also, it is a bit illogical to make a ring for kings who aren't even in ME (notably Vanyar, possibly Teleri).

Here are 2 of my guesses:

The Three Rings had their respective colours and elements:
- Vilya: Air, Blue
- Nenya: Water, White
- Narya: Fire, Red

1.IMHO, this is a bit reminiscent of the 3 chief Valar: Manwë (air), Ulmo (water), Aulë (the smith ----> needs fire to create). Manwë is the mightiest of the Valar and Vilya is the mightiest of the Three.
2.Another option: The Silmarils meet their "doom" in the 3 elements.

Celebrimbor could have made the rings with either (or both?!) of these options in mind, as a tribute to the Valar maybe, or as a tribute to his own grandfather (Fëanor) who created the Silmarils.


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## Khamul (Dec 3, 2002)

I feel that the 3 elements were just a convenient way to give power, while still letting the reader understand it's magnitude. I would agree with your theory, but I think that it is more of a literary ploy than pre-destined attributes. That of course is my opinion, and is strictly up the the interpretation of the reader.


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## Mablung (Dec 3, 2002)

What of the Dwarven rings though? I think that is a bit tougher myself.


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## Ithrynluin (Dec 3, 2002)

I think the simplest explanation for the number of the dwarves' rings is the number of the dwarven fathers that first awoke (7).
This may not be correct.


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## Mablung (Dec 3, 2002)

And then given to the ancestors makes sense what about Men?


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## aragil (Dec 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Anamatar IV _
> *Gil-Galad, Galadriel, and Cirdan were all of the Noldor so that theory is out  *


Cirdan- first round Teleri
Indis of the Vanyar - Fingolfin - Fingon - Gil-Galad (1/8 Vanya, 7/8 Noldo)
Indis of the Vanyar - Finarfin + Eärwen of the Teleri - Galadriel (1/4 Vanya, 1/4 Noldo, 1/2 Teleri)
Looks like in fact the Teleri were overrepresented and the Noldo were under-represented, but still all three tribes were in there! Back up you go, Glorfindel1187.

Now, what about ithrynluin's thoughts?
Vilya-Air-Blue-Manwe- (Vanyar are associated with Manwe)
Nenya-Water-White-Ulmo- (Teleri are associated with Ulmo)
Narya-Fire-Red-Aule- (Noldor are associated with Aule)

The only problem here is that Cirdan got Narya, and he had nothing to do with the Noldor. Perhaps Celebrimbor slipped the wrong ring in the envelope with the wrong address- Was Narya in fact intended to go to Galadriel? I dunno, but I bet there's something in there about the number 3.

Smeagol- I guess you're saying 7 and 9 are just random numbers. Doesn't make for very interesting posts, does it?


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## Lantarion (Dec 4, 2002)

Certain numbers have certain meanings and values beyond their mathematical purposes, according to a branch of philosophy (or something!) called numerology (or something). A bit vague, I know, but bear with me. 
The number three, at least to me, signifies perfection or perfect symmetry. Three-dimensional shapes are the most deep and visually more perfect than two-dimensional. The relationship between the sides of a triangle (adjacent, opposite, hypothaneuse) are easily definable by a simple equation. In short, the number 3 signifies perfection and simplicity; the Elves were the most noble and 'perfect' race of people in Arda.
The number seven signifies, again IMO, roughness and labouring. Seven is an odd number, and also a prime number, so it is 'incomplete' and in a sense 'imperfect'. But it is also a very slender number by shape (at least in the Western system; and as Tolkien spoke English and used the Western alphabet and numerical system I think it applies! ). The Dwarves made gigantic and yet beautiful and almost poetic buildings and fashioned extremely resiliant metals and walls and the like, from a rough material like stone.
The number nine is, yet again IMO, a number that connotates knowledge and beautiful imagination. It is, however, linked to a negative number, 6; it can be argued that 9 is the opposite because it is upside down, but that is too straightforward (although it's very hard to define what is straightforward in such a vague 'science'!). 9 also connotates power and strength, although not as much as the number 8. Humans (Men) desired power, were often strong in body, and had the ability to use their imagination to create wonderful and great things.

This is all a bit far-fetched, I realize, but I was just tossing the idea round.


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## aragil (Dec 4, 2002)

It may indeed have been no deeper than that. Still, in his letters Tolkien often refers to the mythic aspects of his stories. Certainly much of his myths concerning the Elves centers around the number 3- silmarils, rings and tribes. Could there be any connection? Certainly the Silmarils and Rings have their connections with the elements: Earendil bears a Silmaril in the air which might be associated with his son's Ring, Vilya. Maedhros bore a Silmaril into the fiery depths of the Earth, which could be associated with Narya, and Maglor threw his into the sea, which could then be associated with Nenya. In any case it's also interesting that there are three tribes of Elves. Why the symmetry in using the number three? I dunno, but it's kind of fun to speculate about.

Again with the Dwarves we're struck with the number seven, twice actually. I think it is actually explicit to the point that it says one Ring was given to each of the seven houses of dwarves. Where the Rings given to the Dwarves significantly different than the nine given to mortals? Perhaps Sauron got 16 essentially identical rings, and first decided to enslave all the 7 tribes of Dwarves, which would have left him with 'only' nine to enslave men. Or perhaps there was something different about the dwarven rings themselves that made them an especially appropriate gift for the stunty folk. In any case, there is evidence in UT that Durin was given his Ring by Celebrimbor directly, no need for an Annatar intermediate.

See, this can be fun- at least until someone gets their eye poked out.


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## Gothmog (Dec 4, 2002)

Tolkien in fact toyed with different numbers of rings for each of the peoples. I don't have my books handy at the moment but I will try to post quotes tomorrow. so it was by process of elimination that he came to Three, Severn and Nine.


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## Dáin Ironfoot I (Dec 4, 2002)

Why not five rings? Five is always fun... represents evil sometimes if Im not mistaken (ex. pent-o-star thing that those Satan worshippers use)


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## Mablung (Dec 4, 2002)

Yeah but that symbol is only evil when pointed downwards.


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## Incánus (Dec 5, 2002)

I think that Tolkien realized the importance of the numbers outside of their numerical value. In many cultures three is a very important number it represents perfection and is very important in Tolkien's life seeing as he was a devout Catholic (Trinity, death & ressurection of Christ etc.) Seven is also a very important number throughout history. It is also seen as a perfect number and both 3 & 7 are seen as good luck and often the numbers of God or gods. Also 3 and 9 are linked in mythology throughout history. When the number 9 appears in a culture's mythology they are, almost every time, proven to be a long lived civilization. 9 represents growth beyond something. In other words more than 3. This is shown in Tolkien's works by the fact that men grow to become more powerful than elves as the ages pass and in fact are given a gift (death) that none, even the wisest, can explain.


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## Froggum (Dec 5, 2002)

Ow. My head.

(referring, of course oto Lantarion's numerology post)


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## Erestor Arcamen (Oct 31, 2022)

Resurrecting an old thread!

So what did Sauron plan on doing once each race had their rings under his control? The dwarves for example, let's say it worked and the seven dwarf kingdoms (assuming that's what the seven were for) had their kings controlled via their rings. Did he think the whole kingdom would then be 100% subservient to that king and not ask any questions?

Mur: "Hey Nod, why are we marching with that bad guy Sauron? Didn't he get into some bad doodoo with us a few centuries ago?"
Nod: "Because King Mithril-Toe says we should!"
Mur: "Oh ok, sounds good!"

For the nine, he essentially got nine creepy guys to sneak around the world for him and kill people. Other than the Witch King and Angmar, did the others do anything after they became Nazgul? Other than scare people half to death that is? Doesn't seem like any of them were still leading huge armies or kingdoms like WK was.


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## Ealdwyn (Oct 31, 2022)

Power for power's sake? To bend ME to his will?


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 31, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> Resurrecting an old thread!
> 
> So what did Sauron plan on doing once each race had their rings under his control? The dwarves for example, let's say it worked and the seven dwarf kingdoms (assuming that's what the seven were for) had their kings controlled via their rings. Did he think the whole kingdom would then be 100% subservient to that king and not ask any questions?


To some degree they would get many followers. But it'd likely lead to a civil war at some point.


Erestor Arcamen said:


> For the nine, he essentially got nine creepy guys to sneak around the world for him and kill people. Other than the Witch King and Angmar, did the others do anything after they became Nazgul? Other than scare people half to death that is? Doesn't seem like any of them were still leading huge armies or kingdoms like WK was.


Khamûl led Dol Guldur in Sauron's absence. It's possible that many of the Easterlings/Southrons were gained under their leadership, though it's never spoken about.


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