# If Sauron had won...



## Úlairi (Mar 1, 2002)

If Sauron had won and had become Lord of Middle-earth would he gain more and more power every day. I have taken this into consideration for a long time and I have searched and searched but there is no evidence to say that Maia could not become as powerful as the Valar. Do not take this the wrong way but if Sauron won and he continually gained power, do you think he could become powerful enough to challenge the Valar, Eonwe and if Melkor returned, would he have the power to overthrow his master after getting this new taste of indomitable power???


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## Beleg Strongbow (Mar 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> * If Sauron had won and had become Lord of Middle-earth would he gain more and more power every day. I have taken this into consideration for a long time and I have searched and searched but there is no evidence to say that Maia could not become as powerful as the Valar. Do not take this the wrong way but if Sauron won and he continually gained power, do you think he could become powerful enough to challenge the Valar, Eonwe and if Melkor returned, would he have the power to overthrow his master after getting this new taste of indomitable power???   *





How would he gain power??? He has know one to teach him and the maian couldn't become as powerful i think. If so how come Eonwe "doesn't get stronger day by day". Also the elves have been leaving M.E for a while and by now they would have the most totally kcik ass amry ever. Melkor would nail sauron he is a vala and Sauron hasn't acheived half as much as he has. Look at how many times he has been captured especially when the elves were waning and numenore fading!! There is also know evidence to say they could get stronger but common sense says no. Saurons armies would get stronger but i don't think he will. Not enough to face tulkas, orome and Eonwe. Melkor the most powerful being ever couldn't face tulkas by himself and Sauron was defeated by a halfling. I think if he won the vala would send over the craziest army ever and cruch evil for good. Sauron only became stronger under someone that could teach him things, someone stronger then him like Melkor and Aule. He wouldn't be able to contest with the vala. And when he was taken to numenore he payed homage to Melkor and called him the real god, someone above him. Melkor couldn't beat the vala's army and he had dargons, balrogs everything and know that aman has been untouched for many of years tyhe army would be multiplying.

Good theory though!!!!!


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## Úlairi (Mar 2, 2002)

Yes, yes all very true. I must reword it. If Sauron had won his armies would become greater simply because good had been vanquished and evil reigned. The 'goodies' would have to join his army or be slain and I know which one I would choose. My 'IDEA' was simply if Sauron's 'POWER' as in his 'MIGHT' i.e. his army would be stromg enough to take on the Valar, Eonwe and even Melkor. Melkor was beaten by the Valar because he was extremely "powerful" and Sauron was defeated by a hobbit, yet that was unfortunate. Melkor could have been defeated by a hobbit if he had been in the same situation i.e. the Ring being his life-bond. If destroying an object could destroy the Valar than an Orc could do it. We also must remember that Sauron wasn't really defeated by a hobbit, in fact, technically he wasn't defeated at all. Frodo claimed the Ring's power for himself, Gollum bit off his finger and accidentally fell in the Crack of Doom which was an unfortunate turn of events for Sauron. If Frodo and Gollum claimed the Ring for themselves and ran off with it, Sauron would have eventually got it, no doubts there. I am simply asking if Sauron had a large enough army, could he take on the Valar???


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## Lord Melkor (Mar 2, 2002)

I don`t think Valar would send an army to Middle Earth, they weren`t going to interfere anymore.


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## Beleg Strongbow (Mar 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *Yes, yes all very true. I must reword it. If Sauron had won his armies would become greater simply because good had been vanquished and evil reigned. The 'goodies' would have to join his army or be slain and I know which one I would choose. My 'IDEA' was simply if Sauron's 'POWER' as in his 'MIGHT' i.e. his army would be stromg enough to take on the Valar, Eonwe and even Melkor. Melkor was beaten by the Valar because he was extremely "powerful" and Sauron was defeated by a hobbit, yet that was unfortunate. Melkor could have been defeated by a hobbit if he had been in the same situation i.e. the Ring being his life-bond. If destroying an object could destroy the Valar than an Orc could do it. We also must remember that Sauron wasn't really defeated by a hobbit, in fact, technically he wasn't defeated at all. Frodo claimed the Ring's power for himself, Gollum bit off his finger and accidentally fell in the Crack of Doom which was an unfortunate turn of events for Sauron. If Frodo and Gollum claimed the Ring for themselves and ran off with it, Sauron would have eventually got it, no doubts there. I am simply asking if Sauron had a large enough army, could he take on the Valar???    *





No way. These people are gods and way more powerful. They wouldn't get an army as big anyway. The elves would in the end have no place to live in Aman. because they don't die they just stay alive and keep reproducing. 

Melkor was a lot more stronger this is why
Melkor: look he had like all of beleriand under his service until the vala came.
Sauron: He had what Mordor east banks of Anduin and Dol Guldur under his service.
Melkor: Had all this going on at a time when the Eldar and Men of Edain were at their strongest.
Sauron: Lost when numenore was fading and the elves leaving.
Melkor: Controlled other maia like balrogs and dragons
Sauron:"Had the nazgul
Melkor: Most powerful person ever
Sauron: 2nd most powerful MAIA after Eonwe Arguably
Melkor: Captured 2 and he decieved the vala the first time
Sauron: Captured many times and decived the eldar and men of numenore


Melkor's armies had dragons, balrogs and the most vicous evil things ever. Sauron stiil and always has paged homage to melkor.



Tulkas could beat anything with his own hands and could outrun anything on his own to feat. I'm betting Sauron if he had 100 000 men would die against the vala, inc Tulkas, Orome and Eonwe with 10 000 men. They would all flee before there wrath. As for the traitors shore you might choose that. But know good hearted person with any dignity would. No offence ment. But could you imagine Aragorn and glorfindel bowing down to Sauron ?? I think not. And if they did once the vala came over surely they would switch sides. The vala beat the most powerful person ever who had balrogs, dragons and the most evil and dangerous things ever. They would sink sauron like they did to the isle of numenore!!


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## imladris (Mar 2, 2002)

I agree plus there are also a lot of elves in valinor who could also try to stop Sauron.
If the valar could beat melkor then they surely beat Sauron.


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## Snaga (Mar 2, 2002)

I tend to think Sauron would be very careful about assailing the Valar. He'd seen the consequences for the Numenoreans when he persuaded them to try it: he got very wet when the Valar sank Numenor! Sauron is undoubtedly a cunning chap, and wouldn't strike unless he thought he would win.

The Valar haven't totally abandoned ME: they sent Gandalf and the rest of the Istari to get people fighting Sauron. If Sauron had got the Ring, and defeated Gondor, overrun Eriador etc, I tend to think they would have done something (but who knows what?).

I don't doubt that given time, and no opposition Sauron could build an army capable of causing considerable damage to the West. A fleet carrying 50,000 olog-hai would worry anyone. But as soon as they saw the threat the Valar could sink the fleet before they got near (and anyway, with the world being made round, can Sauron even get there??).


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## HLGStrider (Mar 2, 2002)

If Sauron had captured ME, he would've destroyed all good in ME. The Valar might decide that it wasn't worth the time and do a somewhat larger version of Numenor... Sauron would crash into the sea and even if he recovered, where would he go? He'd have to swim for the rest of his life...


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## Beleg Strongbow (Mar 2, 2002)

Yes is till believe that sauron wouldn't be able to get an armty as big. Because the men he would have would end up dying and elves don't so they would just get a massive army. Remember the elves have been going to vala for may hundreds of years now. Now imagine how many there would be if they each had 4 kids. (which they normally do). Imagine if there kids had kids and there kids had kids and their kidds had kids and nobody dies . As well as more coming fomr M.E?? They would start to overflow. Nobody could beat the likes of Tulkas, Orome and Eonwe in battle none of the orcs would go near them. Not even melkor at his most strongest dared to even think about taking over Aman. Sauron would just sit tight there for his master.


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## imladris (Mar 3, 2002)

You've got a good point there.
But aren't the orcs also immortal?
I don't know for sure.
But they were also elfs.


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## Beleg Strongbow (Mar 4, 2002)

I'm not sure. But they aren't as powerful in full flight. Imagine the elves of valinor with the vala and maia at their head the orcs would kill themselves right on the spot. Orcs die easier.???


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## Snaga (Mar 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Beleg Strongbow _
> *Now imagine how many there would be if they each had 4 kids. (which they normally do). Imagine if there kids had kids and there kids had kids and their kidds had kids and nobody dies . As well as more coming fomr M.E?? They would start to overflow. *



Where do you get that from Beleg? Anyway, the Elves may have kids, but they seem to spread them out over 1000s of years. So maybe they don't increase in numbers that fast really?


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## Beleg Strongbow (Mar 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Variag of Khand _
> *
> 
> Where do you get that from Beleg? Anyway, the Elves may have kids, but they seem to spread them out over 1000s of years. So maybe they don't increase in numbers that fast really? *




I think it was Cian that posted that elves normally have only have 4 kids but sometimes there are exceptions with feanor for ab example.


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## imladris (Mar 6, 2002)

But wat about the elves that went to Valinor from ME?
They were with great numbers.


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## Snaga (Mar 6, 2002)

There's a lot of elves in Valinor. For sure. No argument. So breed more orcs, or trolls, or whatever you fancy.

Anyway why am I arguing this? Since I said I couldn't see the point for Sauron, and anyway the Valar would sink his ships....


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## Beleg Strongbow (Mar 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Variag of Khand _
> *There's a lot of elves in Valinor. For sure. No argument. So breed more orcs, or trolls, or whatever you fancy.
> 
> Anyway why am I arguing this? Since I said I couldn't see the point for Sauron, and anyway the Valar would sink his ships.... *





Yes. Melkor wanted to be master of all of arda not sauron. He was probably makling a platform for his master to launch off. The orcs wouldn't get to aman and if they did the vala's wrath and power would smash them.


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## Gigantor (Apr 6, 2017)

Úlairi said:


> If Sauron had won and had become Lord of Middle-earth would he gain more and more power every day. I have taken this into consideration for a long time and I have searched and searched but there is no evidence to say that Maia could not become as powerful as the Valar. Do not take this the wrong way but if Sauron won and he continually gained power, do you think he could become powerful enough to challenge the Valar, Eonwe and if Melkor returned, would he have the power to overthrow his master after getting this new taste of indomitable power???


He would have been powerful enough to pwn anybody and everybody in Middle Earth, so peeps would've gotten rek't.


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