# Who's the greatest Númenorean King ?



## Beren Erchanion (Jun 13, 2002)

I personnaly think it's Tar-Aldarion because of the friendship he began with Gil-galad and his peoples. Tar-Minastir did a great job too, and Tar-Palantir tried his best. But no ones brought a wind of changes and work for the peace of the kingdom more than Aldarion.


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## Tar-Palantir (Jun 13, 2002)

I'll give ya a wild guess who I voted for


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## Ithrynluin (Jun 13, 2002)

I voted for Elros, but Tar-Aldarion is really gr8 too!


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## Maedhros (Jun 14, 2002)

> The mightiest and proudest was Ar-Pharazôn the Golden of all those that had wielded the Sceptre of the Sea-Kings since the foundation of Númenor; and three and twenty Kings and Queens had ruled the Númenóreans before, and slept now in their deep tombs under the mount of Meneltarma, lying upon beds of gold.


It had to be Ar-Pharazôn. He was the ultimate evolution of the Sea kings.


> Therefore he humbled himself before Ar-Pharazôn and smoothed his tongue; and men wondered, for all that he said seemed fair and wise.


Even Sauron knew that his power was nothing to that wielded by him.


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## Beren Erchanion (Jun 14, 2002)

I agree with Maedhros, Ar-Pharazôn was the mightiest king of Númenor, even, of the ME, and that's why I asked poeples about the greatest king. There is no use to be mighty if your not using it to do great things. Ar-Pharazôn ruined his life, his kingdom, the lifes of many, the life of a civilisation. there is no greatness in what he did. Like I posted a couples months ago, I personnaly think that Pharazôn would have done it(I mean the «invasion»  of Númenor) whitout the help of Sauron because he was evil before. Númenorean kings began to turn evil a while ago and that's showing that humans cannot rule a world. Great power and humans mixed together lead to EVIL. (That's probably why they stay the same when they turn EVIL) So, to be great a human must fight himself and must not try to take some power that he shouldn't receive (take Aragorn«Tar-Elessar» for example). So Pharazôn is mighty but did noting great at all.


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## Gil-Galad (Jun 15, 2002)

I agree with Maedhros too.Ar-Pharazôn is really the greatest thing so great that Valar destroyed Númenor.I don't like what he did but he was the only one who opposed Valar.He was so powerful that he believed he was able to reach Valinor.Nobody else had thought such things,nobody else had thought that can oppose the Valar.


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## Ithrynluin (Jun 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Gil-Galad _
> *I agree with Maedhros too.Ar-Pharazôn is really the greatest thing so great that Valar destroyed Númenor.I don't like what he did but he was the only one who opposed Valar.He was so powerful that he believed he was able to reach Valinor.Nobody else had thought such things,nobody else had thought that can oppose the Valar. *



**Ar-Pharazôn is really the greatest thing so great that Valar destroyed Númenor**
He's the greatest because he brought about the downfall of Numenor?

**Nobody else had thought such things,nobody else had thought that can oppose the Valar.**
And for good reason,cause to attempt something like that you gotta be a pure lunatic.Pharazon lost his common sense the day he took Sauron to Numenor as a hostage.And afterwards all the decisions he made were really Sauron's decisions;so in a way, you're supportive of Sauron's actions.
Of course nobody else had thought such things-why should they? The people of Numenor had everything (especially when you compare them to the Edain of ME) : they led happy,content lives on a gorgeous island,they had everything in abundance,they were visited by the Eldar of Eressea,they could sail anywhere in Arda except for Aman (do you know what huge and unexplored lands there were East and South of ME and Numenor?.... 
Ar-Pharazon was a haughty man but Sauron made him into a complete idiot.

Hey Gil-galad I feel another argument boiling between us


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## Ithrynluin (Jun 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Beren Erchanion _
> * Like I posted a couples months ago, I personnaly think that Pharazôn would have done it(I mean the «invasion»  of Númenor) whitout the help of Sauron because he was evil before. Númenorean kings began to turn evil a while ago and that's showing that humans cannot rule a world. *



He(and other kings shortly before him) weren't turning evil, they were turning _arrogant_ cause they were spoiled lil' brats. They had everything but wanted more. It was that smart boy Sauron who instilled that idea into his head.
If you ask me Pharazon was in need of some serious spanking


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## ¤-Elessar-¤ (Jun 15, 2002)

Hey, I beleive the post said that Pharazon was mighty, but did not use that might for good, and therein was not great. That I agree with whole-heartedly. I beleive the greatest to be Erol himself. If it were not for his decision there would never had been the line of the Dunedian, Sauron would probably had taken over middle earth in his first attempt, and most of the histories of the third and second age would not exist. His decision built nearly everything that happened in the second and third age. Anyone see that point?


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## Ithrynluin (Jun 15, 2002)

Elessar, I do agree that Ar-Pharazon was mighty,I just pointed out that the kings were growing arrogant (not evil) year after year.
I too voted for Elros for the same reasons.
Very well-said Elessar!


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## Maedhros (Jun 16, 2002)

> Ar-Pharazôn is really the greatest thing so great that Valar destroyed Númenor





> Then Manwë upon the Mountain called upon Ilúvatar, and for that time the Valar laid down their government of Arda. But Ilúvatar showed forth his power, and he changed the fashion of the world; and a great chasm opened in the sea between Númenor and the Deathless Lands, and the waters flowed down into it, and the noise and smoke of the cataracts went up to heaven, and the world was shaken. And all the fleets of the Númenóreans were drawn down into the abyss, and they were drowned and swallowed up for ever. But Ar-Pharazôn the King and the mortal warriors that had set foot upon the land of Aman were buried under falling hills: there it is said that they lie imprisoned in the Caves of the Forgotten, until the Last Battle and the Day of Doom.


It was not the Valar, but Ilúvatar himself that destroyed Númenor.


> Pharazon lost his common sense the day he took Sauron to Numenor as a hostage.


He didn't lose his common sense because he took Sauron to Númenor, he just didn't imprisioned him and treat him as a prisioner. To take the most dangerous foe and imprisioned him is not folly, allowing him to advise you is.


> The people of Numenor had everything (especially when you compare them to the Edain of ME) : they led happy,content lives on a gorgeous island,they had everything in abundance,they were visited by the Eldar of Eressea,they could sail anywhere in Arda except for Aman (do you know what huge and unexplored lands there were East and South of ME and Numenor?....


That was the problem with the Númenóreans, they were given everything and could not be completely happy because they could not visit their friends in Tol Eressëa and of course their envy of the elves and Valar because of their inmortality.
The Valar built Númenor in such a place that you could see Avallónë the haven of the Eldar in Eressëa.


> This the Númenóreans knew full well; and at times, when all the air was clear and the sun was in the east, they would look out and descry far off in the west a city white-shining on a distant shore, and a great harbour and a tower. For in those days the Númenóreans were far-sighted; yet even so it was only the keenest eyes among them that could see this vision, from the Meneltarma, maybe, or from some tall ship that lay off their western coast as far as it was lawful for them to go. For they did not dare to break the Ban of the Lords of the West. But the wise among them knew that this distant land was not indeed the Blessed Realm of Valinor, but was Avallónë, the haven of the Eldar upon Eressëa, easternmost of the Undying Lands.


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## Ithrynluin (Jun 16, 2002)

**That was the problem with the Númenóreans**
No,no.
That was the problem of some Numenoreans,of which Ar-Pharazon was the chief.The Faithful were totally satisfied with their land as it was. And that's why I wouldn't give my vote to Pharazon but to Elros.


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## Maedhros (Jun 16, 2002)

> That was the problem of some Numenoreans,of which Ar-Pharazon was the chief.The Faithful were totally satisfied with their land as it was.


It was the problem with the Majority of the Númenóreans, which were led by Ar-Pharazôn.
The Faithful were unfortunately a Minority and thus the Númenóreans as a whole failed to keep their lands and beliefs.


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## Tyaronumen (Jun 17, 2002)

I voted for "Other"... my choice is the Last Numenorean: Elessar Telcontar.

Technically probably not a viable choice, but he was a Numenorean King at least -- just not of Numenor itself.  

I suppose that Elros Tar-Minyataur would have been my second choice, but Aragorn really captures the vote for me because of his character and wisdom. I would not say that many among the other kings/queens did not have these same traits in abundance, but I don't know much about them, so . . .


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## Gil-Galad (Jun 17, 2002)

ithrynluin,
we're on diifferent positions too.My oppinion is still the same ,just because I don't see anyone else who would be as great as Ar-Pharazon except Tar-Elros.


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## Gloer (Jun 17, 2002)

*He was mightier than Valar*



> _Originally posted by Gil-Galad _
> *I agree with Maedhros too.Ar-Pharazôn is really the greatest thing so great that Valar destroyed Númenor.I don't like what he did but he was the only one who opposed Valar.He was so powerful that he believed he was able to reach Valinor.Nobody else had thought such things,nobody else had thought that can oppose the Valar. *



As Ar Pharazon stepped ashore of the undying lands the Valar did not stop him. In fact that was the moment Manwe gave up his power to rule over Arda. It was not in the power of Valar to take sides or fight against the children of Iluvatar. So it was Eru who sank Numenor and destroyed Ar-Pharazon.


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## Tyaronumen (Jun 17, 2002)

You might refer to Ar-Pharazon as 'great' for any number of reasons -- but IMHO, one thing that makes a leader great is her/his ability to recognize her/his limitations.

Ar-Pharazon did not recognize his limitations. As such, I think that Ar-Pharazon was the most -powerful- of the Numenorean kings, but not the 'greatest'. One of the kings who recognized his limitations in addition to having other positive traits would be better, IMHO!


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## Elbereth (Jun 20, 2002)

Tar Aldarian is my favorite.

Although he may have been a poor husband...he was a darn fine leader, and his efforts built up Numenors strength and influence.


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## Tyaronumen (Jun 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Elbereth _
> *Tar Aldarian is my favorite.
> 
> Although he may have been a poor husband...he was a darn fine leader, and his efforts built up Numenors strength and influence. *



I really couldn't get past the part about him being such a crappy husband.

He was just pathetic on that account. Also his relationship with his daughter was poor, and she was a worse queen for it (not that she was a BAD queen -- but SHE might have been "Tar-Ancalime the Great" if not for her dysfunctional upraising)... a great king must leave a legacy that speaks well of him. Maybe it's not fair, but that is the way it is...

Aldarion could've left a better legacy. As it happened, his problems with Erendis rendered his greatness merely competent in the humble opinion of this Tolkien fan.


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## Beleg (May 16, 2003)

> It were Sauron's armies that deserted him, it was not Sauron, whose power was diminished.


Some, if not all the power of Sauron is based upon the Number of his Armies. Without an army Sauron cannot fullfil his desire of ruling Middle-Earth.


> It was complete and utter idiocy of Ar-Pharazon to bring Sauron to Numenor


That would have depended upon the situation at that time. Sauron showed that he had been completely humbled by the King and couldn't threaten the King in anyway. Note, it was not easy to fathom Sauron's disguises and his purposes, it took the Noldo a lot of time to do this and they had faced him before. While Al-Phazaron hadn't exactly faced Sauron before, so he couldn't have known about the extent of Sauron's cunning and his habbits. Afterall Numeneor would have been the logical place for such a High-Profile Prisoner to be brought to. By this, Al-Phazaron also wanted to show that he had completely and utterly destroyed Sauron and that Sauron was nothing, but a beggar, a prisoner in his country.


> (not that she was a BAD queen



Geez, her attitude to her granddaughters was condemnble.


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## Lantarion (May 16, 2003)

I say Tar-Minyatur. He was the very first, and only he and a few after him had the proper attitude towards the Land of Gift and the Valar.. After the sixth King I think things started to deteriorate.. But I haven't read the Akallabêth in a long while.


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## BlackCaptain (May 16, 2003)

Well I was never really into all the Numenor stuff. So I couldnt tell ya... But Elros was my favorite Man dude


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## YayGollum (May 17, 2003)

Huh. I wonder why I didn't notice this thread before. oh well. Let me see here. I gots to vote for Ar-Pharazon because he's the only one that I know any stories of. Which makes him interesting. Which makes him entertaining. Which makes him the greatest. oh well. Isn't he the only one that's still alive?


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## Lhunithiliel (May 17, 2003)

I have voted for Tar-Aldarion.
Why?
Because I agree that he was the first to bring the "wind of change" onto Numenor. 
He was the one to develop and improve sea-faring, ship-building, forestry, etc. on the island - extremely inmportant for the economy of a society enclosed on an island!; he was the one to start thinking in serious about the future development of the Numenorean civilizacion - he was wise enough as to foresee that the island could not forever remain the home of the growing power of the Numenoreans - new sourses and new "horizons" must have been found so he went out searching for them. And all he did was for the good of his people - at present (_his_ present) and in the future - no malicious ambitions, no vain lust for power or for the "gifts of fate" of the immortals... 

I personally think he was the greatest.

As for Ar-Pharazon.....Well, he was truly great but too much corrupted even before Sauron and I disaprove of his actions and of the very basic grounds of his greatness - because his ambitions, not less than those of Aldarion, were however dedicated to achieving "rotten" aims.


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## Beleg (May 17, 2003)

> I personally think he was the greatest.


On a Personal Point of View, I do agree. But only because we don't know a lot about the circumstance and the lives of other Kings. 
As for Ar-Pharazon, He was the greatest, well technically he is the greatest as told by the Master himself. But sometimes his greatness is shadowed by his attribution to Sauron. Guess people don't like Dictators too much...


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## Inderjit S (May 17, 2003)

> After the sixth King I think things started to deteriorate.. But I haven't read the Akallabêth in a long while



The 'detirioration' of the kingdom so to speak began from the 12th King Tar-Ciryatan



> He was a mighty king, but greedy of wealth....he oprressed the men of Middle-Earth....It is siad that he constrained his father to yield to him ere of his free will he would. In this way (it is held) might the first coming of shadow of the bliss of Numenor be seen


 Line of Elros

Though you do have a point, since the Druedain began to excavate out of Numenor after Aladarion's voyages, claiming evil would come of it blah-de-bla etc, though he did pave the way for Tar-Minastir to land in time to save Lindon.

My fave. is Tar-Palantir he ruled over a inherently corrupted, evil even, though not wholly so people.


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## Mahal (May 30, 2003)

Mine is Tar-Minastir he helped the elves trough war with Sauron and they almost got him to.


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## Celebthôl (May 30, 2003)

Tar-Elessar, it has to be.

Aragorn from a ranger, honed his power and restored the two Kingdoms of Elendil from naught. 

He also fought in more than one battle where the odds were more than just against him.

He strove with the will of Sauron and succeded,

He walked the paths of the dead against all hope and it was only his will that helled (sp) them together and came out on the other side alive,

He saved Merry, Eowyn and Faramir from certain death

need i go on?

Aragorn in my honest opinion was the best King...so other it is


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## Scatha (May 30, 2003)

Ar-Pharazon was 'dumb' enough to fall for the words of Sauron and has only brought the downfall of the numenoreans, thus can in no way be called the greatest of their kings.

Elros was the founder of the numenorean race, who was smart enough to realise the importance of the friendship with the elves.
So this is were my vote goes.


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## baragund (May 30, 2003)

I guess it all boils down to what definition you want to use for "great". Webster's has a number of definitions, including "remarkable or outstanding in magnitude, degree or extent", "of outstanding importance or significance", "chief or principal", "powerful or influential", "eminent or distinguished", and "pregnant" (I don't think that's the context here )

When one looks at the most pertinant definitions, to me it comes down to either Tar-Minyatur or Ar-Pharazon. Tar-Minyatur because he established Numenor and Ar-Pharazon because he destroyed it.

Well, if I had to pick one, I'd have to pick Ar-Pharazon. He was more instrumental in the destruction of Numenor than Tar-Minyatur was in its' creation. Numenor was handed to the Tar-Minyatur on a silver platter by the Valar.


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