# Best Elven-king or ruler...



## Confusticated (Jul 22, 2004)

There are plenty to choose from...


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## Turgon (Jul 22, 2004)

I'm going to out on a limb here and name Finrod Felagund as the greatest of all the Elven-kings. A teacher, a guide, and a noble soul. Not only to his own people, but to any who happened across his path - an elf-lord's elf-lord if you like.

As for disagreements - it has to be Fëanor. 

I've been thinking lately that with Fëanor - something was lost in translation. Instead the _'Greatest of Ilúvatar's Children'_ it should really read the _'Biggest of Ilúvatar's Children'_. The burning of the ships at Losgar?

_Thus spake Fëanor: 'It's my ball and I'm taking it home...'_


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## Grond (Jul 22, 2004)

> from _The Silmarillion_
> ...The Eldar prepared now a great march from their first homes in the east; and they were arrayed in three hosts. The smallest host and the first to set forth was led by Ingwë, the most high lord of all the Elvish race. He entered into Valinor and sits at the feet of the Powers, and all Elves revere his name; but he came never back, nor looked again upon Middle-earth. The Vanyar were his people; they are the Fair Elves, the beloved of Manwë and Varda, and few among Men have spoken with them.


It doesn't get much clearer than that. Ingwë led his people to Valinor and then wasn't foolish enough to allow the lies of Melkor to poison his mind or his people. He was devoted to the Powers of Middle-earth and never swayed in his purpose. While his life, Kingship and people might have been boring... he was the leader I admire most... living in Eldamar at the right hand of Manwe.

Least favorite would be Feanor... a leader who allowed ambition, greed, lust and avarice to rule his soul rather than lead his people. As mentioned by good Turgon... we should never forget the burning ships at Losgar... both for what it cost many of his people (crossing of the Helcarxe) and what it cost the good Teleri (their lives and their most prized possessions, their ships).


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## Confusticated (Jul 22, 2004)

I agree with the choice of Finrod. A king who gets out among the people. Who is motivated by love and kindness, and is wise. A king that leads by guiding and rules by serving, not only the people of his realm (as I said before "no matter what realm Finrod rules, the world is his Kingdom") but all humanity umm and whatever the elf equal of the word humanity is! And I do believe he went into exile as a servant, he was one when he lead them through the Helcaraxe, when he talked to Thingol about Men, when he made friendships with Cirdan's people, with the dwarves and when he let the sons of Feanor join his realm, and when he went off to his death with only 10 people of his entire realm. Finrod wasn't just the kind of King you want to have in a paradise (Ingwe?) or only in a time of war to be a millitary leader and warrior (Fingon? Maedhros?), he is the kind of king that will be best in all cases. He is a citizen who stands above all others because goodness in its purest form that is like a holiness and love radiates from him and is reflected and seen in all that he does, not because he sets himself above anyone. All things considered there is not one ill thing can be said about Finrod. And when it comes to stereotypes of the three kindreds, he had the best of all three. The gentle heart of a holy Vanya, but strong spirit and courage of the Noldor, love of wandering (and doubtless also his singing skill) and other such nice elvish things of the Teleri.

He looked at Men, a relatively unlovely race, and his heart filled with love. He was able to understand and communicate with Beor's people so well in the beginning (despite different tongues) because of the openess of his heart.

Though some of the other elven-kings were great too.


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## Grond (Jul 23, 2004)

I gotta disagree with you guys. The kings you have cited all came across in the Flight of the Noldor. A despicable exodus after a cowardly act followed by many more cowardly acts. No king who came to Arda from Aman can be considered the greatest Elven King. They all perished. A perfect illustration that the flight was a monumental mistake is the fact that all the Noldor who remained on Middle-earth ultimately returned to Valinor. There are only two kings who even qualify for this title... Ingwe and Finarfin. Finarfin is disqualified because he set out on the despicable quest before coming to his senses.


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## Confusticated (Jul 23, 2004)

I carefully did not make it about "greatest" king. The reason for this is I wondered which elven-king's ways we personally agree with most. Who fits our own idea of what a king should be. I think this makes for better discussion that an arguement over who is greatest and also often over the exact definition of "great" 

As for greatest Elven-king, one could say Ingwe for the simple fact he was the high-king of all elves, or even that he is revered by all elves. Though his manner of ruling (what can be deduced about it given what we were not told he did) is not one I agree with personally.One could also argue that some of the others were greatest but for different reasons of course.

I admire a King who stays with his people if he is unable to prevent them from going into the folly and danger, then at least he is as loyal to them as they should have been but failed to be to him. I admire someone who goes into danger because their family and friends does, instead of saying "that is foolish and wrong so I am staying behind..... best wishes though!" When someone is going into that danger is when they need you most. I mean, if you couldn't stop your children from going into a dangerous place where they were bound to be doomed to defeat, would you go with them?

But I don't know how far we could argue this for the simple fact you obviously view the exile (even by those innocent of kinslaying) as sinful, whereas I do not. Even the Valar did not command the Noldor to remain. Had their exile itself been unlawful they could have done so. Feanor and his sons were bannished from Aman because of the oath, but aside from this the Noldor were free to go either way.


If it was down to Ingwe and Finarfin I would chose Finarfin no question about it. Ingwe was idle, and I don't like that in a king when there is so much more he could be doing. I see Ingwe more as an elf under another king than a king over many other kings . Where was he when the entire people of the Noldor were preparing to leave Middle-earth to battle with Morgoth since the Valar delayed?

What is so despicable about the quest to seek lands in Middle-earth and revenge on the enemy? Most were not of a mind to follow Feanor, so they had no real intention on getting the silmarils they just wanted revenge and/or new lands, space and freedoms. Freedoms they either did not have or else believed they did not have in Valinor. And what about Finarfin, what was his personal quest at the time of setting out? Here we have someone who tried gently to talk sense into the madness that day in Tirion but the people would not listen. Rather than fault them for this and punish them he decided to go with them, probably to be of what help in wise counsel that he could be heard in. Eventually after the kinslaying and prophecy of the north and being overwhelmed with grief, he turned back with those who would follow. I can't see reason to fault him for turning back, or for having set out with them in the beginning.

I do not see the fact that the Noldor eventually returnd back to Aman as proof the exile was despicable. The elves were weary and there was more griefs in Middle-earth and all things aged more quickly, and elves were even in tune with the rate at which Aman Ages. Also, Since Aman was Arda Unmared, it is close to what the elves were orginally designed for. For most elves this may mean that they are better off in Aman, but they as free people should get to make the choice of when they go to Eldamar, of course Middle-earth was their home too. But if their return proves their coming was a mistaken, does this mean all elves who reufsed the summons or who turned aside on the way to Aman were wrong? Why is it, do you think, that Ulmo thought it best the elves be left free in Middle-earth? Ulmo, the Vala who directly showed the most understanding of and concern for the Children. The one whose part it was to seem to go against the other Valar. It may be that you do not think the elves should have stayed in Middle-earth or belonged in Middle-earth, and if this is the case it is a whole 'nother discussion itself, but because I strongly disagree I can not say that their return to Aman proves that their coming to Middle-earth was wrong, let alone despicable.



But I wonder, what cowardly act did any of the children of Finarfin, most of all Finrod himself, commit? The king did perish, Finrod in a pit of hell after having been forsaken by his people. Forsaken by his kingdom under sway of the evil sons of Feanor, but still he kept to his own word knowing it would be the death of him.


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## Grond (Jul 23, 2004)

Maikanare said:


> ...But I wonder, what cowardly act did any of the children of Finarfin, most of all Finrod himself, commit? The king did perish, Finrod in a pit of hell after having been forsaken by his people. Forsaken by his kingdom under sway of the evil sons of Feanor, but still he kept to his own word knowing it would be the death of him.


Had grond not stirred the pot, would we never have gotten such a wonderful post from you. 

Ask anyone who has been here a long time... grond loves to stir the pot, even when he doesn't necessarily agree with what he, himself, just posted.


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## Inderjit S (Jul 30, 2004)

Ingwë, the big high king, the lackey of Varda, the Ingwion, the oh so wise and benevolent ruler of those famous wise-men and singers of songs about the Valar, the ones who got left behind, the lovers of _Colombo_ the..wow, these guys sure are B_O_R_I_N_G-there is a whole world to explore, and yet they stay at home in the perfect (boring) realm of the Valar. Maybe that is what makes Elves different from us-they can stand and like to live in a perfect land and sing songs about the Valar. Maybe I like the Noldor because they were so damn human-maybe I like Fëanor because he is so easy to hate, because he is impetuous, bellicose, arrogant, fearless, human, or more human then Ingwë and co. Did Ingwë even go to the War of Wrath? 

Is Fëanor the best king? Is he the kind of king who I would want to rule over me? Nope. All the things I love about him, all the things which make him interesting, would make me hate him and rebel against him-his self-serving nature, his unlimited pride and arrogance, the fact that as a king he would suck-not many of the Noldor liked him or were willing to be ruled by him, some of the ones who were willing were just doing so out of respect for his father and the fact that he was the now (being the eldest son) the heir of Finwe. Fëanor was a great Elf, perhaps the greatest ever, perhaps the greatest incarnate ever, perhaps as great as the Valar, perhaps the most influential person ever to exist in Arda and maybe Eru put a fire in him greater then the Valar could imagine-but he wanted puppets as his subjects, not rational beings with their own feelings, opinions and sense of right and wrong. He wanted "yes men", people who would obey him because he was so great-that seems to me to be the attitude of a despot not a good king. A good king is never despotic. Thus Fëanor was a great Elf-but a great king? No chance.

Who would I like to serve under? Three choices really; Fingon, Maedhros and Felagund. Fingon was brave, loyal and impetuous, his boyfriend the same-Finrod was wise, willing to sacrifice himself for the greater good and his people, trusting, intelligent and sexy (not as sexy as Maedhros though)-perhaps you could add Fingolfin to the list. They wanted to get things done, they were fearless, valorous and mighty-they were the kind of kings I would serve under. Every Finarfin needs a Fingolfin-does every Fingolfin need a Finarfin? Yes. The problem with Fëanor is that he didn't need anybody. Ingwë may have been the Ingwion-but he would not have been my king or my high king.


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## Confusticated (Jul 30, 2004)

Nice Vanyar & Ingwe rant. But I wonder if Tolkien would say the same thing about Ingwe not leaving Valinor for the War of Wrath as he said about Manwe not leaving his mountain? I'm curious why you are calling Ingwe The 'Ingwion'? I think I missed something? I thought that was only the latest name of his son and perhaps a term for his people. Hehe...and what is the deal with his son's second name 'Ingwiel', were you thinking what I was thinking - Ingw*iel*?? 

Hmm Nice Feanor rant too, a fun read even if it lacked the eloquence of Turgon's anti-Feanor post. 

I'm wondering why Fingon and those twain but for Fingolfin its only a maybe? How about Gil-galad, would you put him below Fingolfin? 

Hmm Now that I think about my second choice, I'm pretty sure it would be Fingolfin. It would go: Finrod, Fingolfin, Aegnor (in time of war I just might put him before Fingolfin, in time of peace I'd lower him perhaps), Fingon,Turgon, Gil-galad, Galadriel, Finarfin (in time of peace he goes higher), Angrod... then I'd move over to the leaders Telerin in origin... Go'opher, Denethor, Cirdan...Olwe... so on... (skipping Thingol though) before coming to those who I would just not take as a leader.

Edit: nevermind that last paragraph I have a better way. I got it all wrong above... ALL WRONG!!

Of who fits my idea of how a King should be: Finrod, Finarfin, Fingolfin...

But, who I would want as a millitary leader in time of war: Fingon, Aegnor, Fingolfin, Gil-Galad.

All things taken together, It'd be: Finrod, Fingolfin... and from there I can't be sure. Maybe Finarfin or Fingon.


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## Grond (Jul 30, 2004)

All the kings cited have done nothing more for their people than to get them or themselves killed. I admire Finrod, Fingolfin, Fingon, Turgon and others mightily. They were great leaders and great kings in their own right under their own circumstances... but the premise of this thread is Best Elven-king or ruler. To me, the best would be the one who looked thought of his people first, who remained true to his faith and true to his beliefs. Boring or not, Ingwe is the only one who fits the bill. His loyalty to Manwe and indirectly to Eru is beyond question. He heard the lies of Melkor and ignored them. He heard the edits of Manwe and obeyed. He guided his people down the path of righteousness and never left Aman. 

They only left again at the bidding of Manwe in the War of Wraith where many of their race died... but they fulfilled their duty to their king and the Valar. 

Ingwe is the man!!


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## Inderjit S (Jul 31, 2004)

He was loyal to Manwë-but was he also loyal to Eru? Since Manwë was Eru's representative on Arda then you could say yes, he was loyal to Eru-but Eru's plan would at times differ from Manwë's plan since Manwë did not always know what Eru did or did not want. Manwë was fallible-Eru was not. 

The Noldor were the ones who set the wheel going in regard to the whole History or Arda, yes their war brang a lot, too much in fact, pain to Arda-but out of this pain was brought beauty, Men were lifted up, Hobbits grew hairy toes, and from great evil beauty arose, Beren and his Luthien, Maedhros and his toe-nail fungi and Fingolfin and his cat-the Noldor were the principle actors in the ever-evolving history of Arda (amongst the incarnates) and without them there wouldn't be much of a history. I think Goethe puts it best in _Faust_ when he claims that evil is always trying to work evil but it ends up working good. They may have done nothing more then to get themselves killed but at least they did not sit on their butts waiting for the Valar to get bad ol' Melkor.

The needs and wants of the Vanyar and Noldor were different. Desire is relative. Relative to a persons upbringing, nature and desires. The Noldor did not desire to remain in Aman. The Vanyar did. The Vanyar wanted peace, tranquillity and quiet. And the Valar. The Noldor wanted the Valar, but they wanted revenge, lands to explore and were sick of their life in Aman. The Noldor followed Fëanor and co so quickly because Fëanor articulated their inner and outer desires and their wishes.

Fingolfin and co. loved and cared for their people as much as Ingwë, they cared about Arda as much as the Vanyar, Fëanor may have, as Andreth and men said gone to war because of his jewels, but he and the other Noldor also wanted to get rid of Morgoth; and what greater sacrifice is there then that? Fëanor reminds me of Achilles. He also reminds me of Cicero. As far as Roman emperors go, Finarfin reminds me of Auerlius and Maeglin of Aetius. They knew that they would most probably did, that they would not win the war, that in the end the mighty Valar would overcome the mighty Noldor, but they didn't care-their deeds would be sung about for years, chicks would find them amazingly manly and hot and cases of dysentery would be down 88%, they would be heroes and their mighty deeds would outlast them and turn out to be for the greater good of Arda. I shudder to think what the Elves would be like if they were homogenously liked the Vanyar-there would not be much of a history of Arda, there would be little glory in defeat, sadness in victory, men would not be as high as they became. The Noldorin kings knew the risk they faced when they went to Middle-Earth, their people knew the risks too, some of them did not go-they were not forced, they went of their own free will, intoxicated by Fëanor’s eloquent speech perhaps but of their own free will nonetheless. The war was not the war of the Vanyar or the Teleri-the Noldor wanted vengeance and they knew what they were getting themselves into. You contradict yourself, Grond, when you say that a great king stays true to himself and his values, like Ingwë, if the Noldorin princes had not gone to Middle-Earth then they certainly wouldn't have stayed true to themselves or their values.

To say they done nothing me then to get themselves and thier people killed is not right, in my oponion. They brought strength, beauty and wonder to the world, and such gifts are without superlatives. 

Maikanre-Ingwion is a slip for Ingweron (whoops!) ('Shibboleth; HoME 12')



> How about Gil-galad, would you put him below Fingolfin?



Gil-Galad showed a lot of the prudence and wisdom along with the classic Finwëan impetuousness and thus he is up there with the great kings, in my opinion.


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## Grond (Jul 31, 2004)

Inderjet,
My eloquent, learned and challenging reply to your latest post was maliciously destroyed by a lightning storm late this evening. It was at least six long paragraphs in length and I am overwrought that it is gone. I will recompose the jist of the arguments and challenges tommorrow. 

Sorry,   

grond


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## Inderjit S (Aug 1, 2004)

Looking forward to it.


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## Melian_the_Maya (Aug 13, 2004)

The king I like most has to be included in the Maedhros, Earendil and Gil-Galad. The best bit about Maedhros I think was his loyalty, Earendil was brave and strong willed and thus achieved what nobody else did. And Gil-Galad died - which is very dramatic for the story.

Of the three I guess Maedhros and Gil-Galad stand highest, maybe because Earendil does not seem as kingly and as grand as the other two, he doesn't seem like a ruler strictly speaking, he is the daring knight every kingdom needs.

The one I most disliked - well the truth is that Feanor is one of my favourite characters in the Sil (and NOT because he was a great king, but because I understand the desperate struggle to repossess what he created), so I'll take him off the list. Actually I have to say that Ingwe vexes me far more greatly, because of his passiveness.


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## Ingwë (Jul 15, 2005)

I think the best Elven-King was [highlight]Thingol[/highlight]. He was Lord of the Sindar and the greatest Elven-King who ever lived in the Middle earth. His folk was developed as the Elves of Valinor. Well, asmost  His Wife was Melian the Maia and she helped him and she created the Girdle of Melian so his kingdom become the most developed.

And about the least favourite... [highlight]Fëanor[/highlight], Grond is right:
_Least favorite would be Feanor... a leader who allowed ambition, greed, lust and avarice to rule his soul rather than lead his people. As mentioned by good Turgon... we should never forget the burning ships at Losgar... both for what it cost many of his people (crossing of the Helcarxe) and what it cost the good Teleri (their lives and their most prized possessions, their ships)._


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## Inderjit S (Jul 15, 2005)

Thingol the best king? Certainly not! You speak of his wife, Melian, yet did he follow the advice of his wife when she told him to relinquish the Silmaril? Did he not lust after them as Fëanor did? Did that not lead to the destruction of his realm. Sure the realm was his to rule was he saw fit, but distancing himself from the war was of little help to anybody-certainly his realm would have been overcome and IMO instead of fencing himself off from the strife, the girdle certainly would not have held out forever and he only delayed the destruction of his realm instead of helping out the Ñoldor and his kin. (And did he help Círdan when he was besieged-after Círdan gave up going to Valinor to help look for him!) Thingol was a great king, and a great Elf, I have no doubt, but certainly not the best! And what of the girdle, a ephemeral measure against Melkor, and it would not have held out long if it wasn't for the Ñoldor.

And ,Fëanor though proud and arrogant, was something of a tragic figure too; consider the fact that he was the only Elf in Valinor without a mother. Perhaps Míriel Þerinde’s death had a greater affect then we think-she certainly thinks so herself. Though, as you say, Fëanor would have made a bad king, a despotic Elven king, however paradoxical that may sound. (Though Fingolfin certainly shouldn't have claimed the kingship after he told Fëanor "you shall lead and I shall follow."!)


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## Aiglos (Jul 17, 2005)

THINGOL...!!!!!!???????

Proud pain in the ass. His lust for the Silmarils and for all things pretty was a liability which got both him and his son killed.

His attituade towards men was a disadvantage for the alliance against Morgoth.

He was a royal pain.


I would name Gil Galad. For sheer length of time served in the purpose of good, unwavering and wise, ruling over his people and preserving them over thousands of years of strife. And ultimately sacrificing himself in the fight against the enemy.

But then, given what I'm named after, I suppose I'm biased...


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## ingolmo (Jul 22, 2005)

My favorite would be Finrod, and Elrond (though I'm a bit biased to people of his kind.) But still, consider him. He stayed in Middle-earth and fought against Sauron till the end, and even managed to make a stronghold resisting Sauron completely. His efforts against the enemy were great, and he deserves a mention among the greatest Elven rulers.

And the worst, that would be Thingol the foolish, the stupid, the greedy, the hater of almost all. And Feanor comes a close second, for the reasons that everyone has so far given.


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## Telëlambe (Aug 8, 2005)

Hmmm...
I have no doubt that Ingwe (on laptop so i cant to the accents) was a great king, but we will never know how great as he was as he never faced a challange or even a problem. They lived under the complete protection of valinor and only proved himself as an economical leader. If the great kings Finwe, Fingolfin, Turgon, Fingon or Finrod had'nt died as i think they had the potential to be very very great. (especially Fingolfin, who cared greatly about the greater good, all the noldor loved him and so did i.) Gil-Gilad however lived and ruled long enough to prove himself as a very great king and lord, loved so much by his people that they never replaced him. Read his character profile, its very intresting. 
However we are forgetting a very important figure. Un-questionably the wisest sindar and perhaps the wisest Eldar? He was gifted the greatest fore-sight of the children, and was a dependable rock to all the kingdoms in middle earth. Most humble and least proud, did'nt speak much, but when he did you damn well took note! and if you hav'nt guessed it yet he built the vessel that was the saviour of middle earth. 
Cirdan Seems like the guy for the job.


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