# Did the Balrog know about the One Ring?



## Alcuin (Apr 8, 2005)

Did the Balrog of Moria know about the One Ring? He had “slept” through the Second Age and most of the Third Age, so we may safely assume he would have no reason to know the history of the Ring. But could he sense its evil presence and the power within it?


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 8, 2005)

I think it's possible the Balrog was stirred from sleep by the presence of the Ring, since the One always tries to slip from its current bearer, on into better hands, and so finally to its original master. I made a related thread quite some time ago, inquiring why exactly the Balrog awoke - here.

An interesting topic, one of my favourites, and well worth delving into.


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## Mr. Underhill (Apr 8, 2005)

It is my understanding that the Balrog was awoken by the Dwarves in their quest for the mining of mithril. Deeper and deeper they dug until they awoke the nameless terror. I doubt that the Balrog was aware of the Ring. After having "slept" for so long he was probably very unaware of what was going on anywhere beyond his own domain. However, having served Morgoth I would certainly speculate that he knew Sauron and may have been drawn to the Ring once Pippin inadverdently made it's presence known ... I don't see why else he would have bothered with a small company that the orcs should have easily been able to dispose of ... unless he did indeed also sense Gandalf.


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## Entmoot (Apr 9, 2005)

This is one I've given some thought to. Here's what I think:

I don't believe any creature could sense the Ring without looking for it. The Watcher didn't sense the ring until some silly hobbit threw a stone in the water and disturbed it. Then, when it's attention was turned to the company, it was drawn to Frodo. Likewise, when a silly hobbit dropped a stone down the well (you'd think they'd learn) the orcs realized something was going on and caused a ruckus. The Balrog, when made aware there was a disturbance, focused on the company and was drawn to them. 

I think the Watcher and the Balrog were only aware of an attracting presense and not the ring necessarily. But were only aware of it once their attention was called to it. If the hobbits had kept their hands in their pockets throughout I think the company would have snuck right through. 

That's the only way it makes sense. Gollum hid under those mountains for 500 years and wasn't found. He knew better than to throw stones. And when the ring was in Mordor Sauron firmly believed the ring was about to surface in the hands of the army attacking his front gate. In other words he wasn't looking for it about him. If he was he probably would have found it.


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## Gil-Galad (Apr 9, 2005)

Well,I re-read the old thread...OMG a long time has passed.

I couldn't say I have not changed my position since then.Re-reading everything once again I would agree with two-three possible ideas and combine them.

First of all let's think of the whole situation in ME.It was a time when the evil things were able to feel,to sense that there was something going on.I mean,Sauron's preparations definitely had some influence on all evil creatures.
Secondly,I would this time agree with Ithy,that the Balrog may have felt the presence of something.I doubt he knew that it was the One(he was also a Maya like Gandalf and Gandalr did not feel that the Ring was so close to him so many years),but he might just have had the feeling for something,a feeling that made him more aware....
And finally,the presence of the orcs should have played if not a major role,at least some role in the whole thing.....

None of this three ideas seems to be the ONLY reason,but if we combine all of them we would probably be closer to the correct answer to the question.


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## Inderjit S (Apr 9, 2005)

Well, the Watcher in the Water went for Frodo first-perhaps it felt something, and perhaps the Balrog felt something similair.

Why would the Ring want to go to the Balrog? He is more evil than Frodo, no doubt, but it would be a illogical change of hands! Frodo could be cowed by the ring's master (assuming the ring wanted to get back to Sauron)-but the Balrog is another story! And as for the Balrog with the ring-well let's say sticking with Frodo would be the logical choice if it wished to get back to it's master. I think that the ring had resided under the Misty Mountains for long enough!


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## Helm (Apr 10, 2005)

When Sam is in the tower of Cirith Ungol, the orc running down the stars was afraid of Sam because he had the Ring. So orcs can sence the Ring, it would make sence that the belrog could sence the ring also.


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## Gil-Galad (Apr 11, 2005)

Helm said:


> When Sam is in the tower of Cirith Ungol, the orc running down the stars was afraid of Sam because he had the Ring. So orcs can sence the Ring, it would make sence that the belrog could sence the ring also.




If that was true and even an orc was able to feel the One,the it should have been not a problem for Sauron to feel the One,no matter how far it was....that was not the real fact.
I doubt the orc was able to feel the ring,he was afraid of Sam,because of Sam's appearance,not because of the fact that the hobbit had the One ring.


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## Maggot (Apr 11, 2005)

The Balrog is called a Balrog of Morgoth (Morgoth is Melkor see Silmarillion) Sauron was also under the dominion of Melkor like the Balrogs, but Sauron was his lieutenant. Maybe after Melkor's fall Sauron took the Balrogs as his lieutenants during the making of the rings. And if they don't know about it that way they probably sense it because they're evil.


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## Flame of Udûn (Apr 11, 2005)

Entmoot said:


> The Watcher didn't sense the ring until some silly hobbit threw a stone in the water and disturbed it.


You are confusing the movie with the book. Boromir was the one to throw the stone into the pool.


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## Gil-Galad (Apr 11, 2005)

After the War of Wrath and the destruction of Beleriand the Balrgos were defeated by the Valar,and those who escapede and managa somehow to hide were not seen in Middle-earth in II or III age.
So there is no chance that the Balrog from Moria participated in the making of the rings...
What is more,Tolkien never mentioned any possible relation between Sauron,the making of the Rings and the Balrog....


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## Maggot (Apr 11, 2005)

Alright Gil-Galad Tolkien may of said that but how was a new Balrog made if it was not a Balrog of Morgoth because this certain Balrog was indeed seen in the Third age but you said that no Balrogs of Morgoth were seen then so how did it come to be. Of the Balrogs of Morgoth in the war of wrath many perished but some fled and hid, as you said in the depths of the earth and were not seen in the second or third age. But where Moria stood there were some of the roots of the earth. I take back what I said earlier about the Balrog sensing the ring if Sauron could not sense where it was because he thought Aragorn would use it then the Balrog certainly could not of sensed it. But who made this Balrog if Melkor didn't. Sauron? Or was it the offspring of two Balrogs that's if they can breed and if they have different sexes.


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## Inderjit S (Apr 11, 2005)

The Balrog couldn't have participated in the making of the rings because only the Elves and Sauron, sometimes together and sometimes seperate, particpated in the making of the rings.

The Balrog was a Balrog of Morgoth, one which escaped after the Valar overthrew Morgoth. 

Sauron could sense the ring-even outside Mordor , though inside Mordor he could sense it anywhere. Sauron did not sense the ring when Sam put it on because his mind was busy elsewhere-if he had tried hard enough then he could have and would have sensed it. 

The Balrog may not have sensed the ring per se, but the evil power which it exhibited.


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## Gil-Galad (Apr 11, 2005)

Maggot said:


> Alright Gil-Galad Tolkien may of said that but how was a new Balrog made if it was not a Balrog of Morgoth because this certain Balrog was indeed seen in the Third age but you said that no Balrogs of Morgoth were seen then so how did it come to be. Of the Balrogs of Morgoth in the war of wrath many perished but some fled and hid, as you said in the depths of the earth and were not seen in the second or third age. But where Moria stood there were some of the roots of the earth. I take back what I said earlier about the Balrog sensing the ring if Sauron could not sense where it was because he thought Aragorn would use it then the Balrog certainly could not of sensed it. But who made this Balrog if Melkor didn't. Sauron? Or was it the offspring of two Balrogs that's if they can breed and if they have different sexes.



The Balrogs were nor "made by " Melkor,they were the same spirits as Sauron,Gandalf,Saruman,Radagast,Melian -Maiar.So it was impossible for Melkor or Sauron to "make a Balrog".
By the words "Balrog of Morgoth" Tolkien meant that the Balrog was one of those who were next to Melkor during I age.


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## Hammersmith (Apr 11, 2005)

Helm said:


> When Sam is in the tower of Cirith Ungol, the orc running down the stars was afraid of Sam because he had the Ring. So orcs can sence the Ring, it would make sence that the belrog could sence the ring also.


I see that part as the only real "use" of the ring, apart from a tool of invisibility. Sam held the ring - not on his finger, thank goodness! - and attacked the orcs with rightful anger and indignition at his master's treatment. What the orcs saw, the towering elven figure with a wheel of gold fire at its neck, was an illusion of the ring, or even a true glimpse at the power contained within it. Perhaps if Sam had worn it then, he would have fallen?


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## Alcuin (Apr 14, 2005)

Now that things have slowed a bit in this thread, let me point out a couple of oddities about the sojourn through Moria. First of all, the Watcher in the Water at the West Gate (with the doors of Narvi) grabbed Frodo. Tolkien rarely allows us to know the thoughts or inner converse of any characters other than the hobbits, but shortly after this event, he lets us in on the inner concerns of Gandalf:


> ‘I felt that something horrible was near from the moment that my foot touched the water,’ said Frodo. ‘What was the thing, or were there many of them?’
> 
> ‘I do not know,’ answered Gandalf; ‘but the arms were all guided by one purpose. Something has crept, or has been driven out of dark waters under the mountains. There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.’ He did not speak aloud his thought that whatever it was that dwelt in the lake, it had seized on Frodo fist among all the Company.


Then in the fight in the Chamber of Mazarbul, Frodo was attacked by the orc chieftain.


> But even as they retreated, and before Pippin and Merry had reached the stair outside, a huge orc-chieftain, almost man-high, clad in black mail from head to foot, leaped into the chamber; behind him his followers clustered in the doorway. His broad flat face was swart, his eyes were like coals, and his tongue was red; he wielded a great spear. With a thrust of his huge hide shield he turned Boromir’s sword and bore him backwards, throwing him to the ground. Diving under Aragorn’s blow with the speed of a striking snake he charged into the Company and thrust his spear straight at Frodo. The blow caught him on the right side, and Frodo was hurled against the wall and pinned. Sam, with a cry, hacked at he spear-shaft, and it broke. But even as the orc flung down the truncheon and swept out his scimitar, Andúril came down upon his helm. There was a flash like a flame and the helm burst asunder. The orc fell with cloven head. His followers fled howling, as Boromir and Aragorn sprang at them.


Reasonable people may disagree, but it seems to me that this was an attack upon Frodo in particular rather than upon the party in general. 





In light of this, I would like to rephrase my original question, which was designed to invite a response, to this:Did the Balrog sense the presence of the Ring? 

​
I’m not sure there is any evidence that he did. He clearly understood that there was a powerful creature on the other side of the door at the Chamber of Mazarbul, just as Gandalf did:


> ‘…All I caught was _ghâsh_: that is “fire”. Then something came into the chamber – I felt it through the door, and the orcs themselves were afraid and fell silent. It laid hold of the iron ring, and then it perceived me and my spell.
> ‘What it was I cannot guess, but I have never felt such a challenge. …


 Now, is the Balrog after the Ring? Is he chasing Gandalf, and is there any reason to believe that he recognized Gandalf as a Maia any more than Gandalf recognized the Balrog for what he was?

Now a final question: was the Balrog originally just chasing intruders into his territory?


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## Entmoot (Apr 14, 2005)

The Balrog didn't personally chase out everyone who came in. Balin's colony, for instance, would have been crushed outright had the Balrog attacked. I can't remember off hand if he did or it was just the orcs that killed the dwarves but he didn't seem to care about them for some time.

The differences here are the presence of the ring and another Maia. I believe the Balrog was aware he was in the presence of power but not what that power was exactly. The awareness didn't start automatically when they entered Moria but rather when the company drew attention to themselves. I think this is an important distinction. The ring didn't reach out to the Balrog so much as the Balrog reached out to the company and thereby felt the ring. 

This theory helps make sense of why Gollum was never found and why Sauron never noticed the ring under his nose.


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## Hammersmith (Apr 14, 2005)

Entmoot said:


> The Balrog didn't personally chase out everyone who came in. Balin's colony, for instance, would have been crushed outright had the Balrog attacked. I can't remember off hand if he did or it was just the orcs that killed the dwarves but he didn't seem to care about them for some time.


Did the dwarves not wake the Balrog during their fight with the goblins?


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 15, 2005)

I'd say that the Balrog sensed Gandalf's presence. And I believe that the Balrog would actually see another Maia's presence a threat and worthy of "waking up", unlike Balin's company. I think it is unlikely that it was the Ring, seeing as how the Balrog never went after Frodo.
Also, the Watcher in the Water. I believe that it may have sensed some power, seeing as how it is ancient and foul. But I don't think that it would know about the Ring or have enough intelligence to understand what it would be useful for. It simply sensed its power, and went for it.
Now, on to the orc captain. I don't think that it sensed the Ring, or that it even knew of it. It's attack on Frodo, if you take it that way, may have been an attack on an important individual. Frodo was standing surrounded by the Fellowship. It is understandable that the orc would believe him to be an important person (correctly), and worth killing.
And last, the orc in Cirith Ungol "sensing" the Ring. I don't believe that this orc sensed the Ring either. It was simply an illusion, the same as when Frodo is "revealed" to Sam as a being of greater power with a wheel of fire at his chest, later on in the journey (when Frodo command Gollum).


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## Bombadillo (Apr 18, 2005)

A balrog with the one ring, now that's asking for trouble, not onle for ME but also for Sauron. Balrogs are in tje same leuague as sauron, and have around the same strength. 
A balrog would not challenge Sauron, since he was the personal favourite of Morgoth, but with the one ring in his hand, I don't think he would doubt one second. 

No, my opinion is that the ring was trying to get to the orks, who would bring it to Sauron. Staying with frodo was certainly not the best option, and whe know the ring tried to leave Frodo already (with thenazgul and all). 

Wow.. a balrog with the one ring... great if you're a pyromaniac..


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## Hammersmith (Apr 18, 2005)

Bombadillo said:


> A balrog would not challenge Sauron, since he was the personal favourite of Morgoth, but with the one ring in his hand, I don't think he would doubt one second.


Assuming that a Balrog _could _use the ring (and I don't see any reason to suggest otherwise apart from big fingers and no opposable thumbs) I am sure that he (She? Now there's a thought!) would depose Sauron. He'd be powerful enough to, and...well, what's stopping him? Saruman was an ally of Sauron (albeit in order to access the ring) and he did not offer his master blind obedience. I believe that only the Nazgul, enslaved utterly to Sauron's will, would have taken the ring meekly to Sauron, knowing full well what it was.


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## Forgotten Path (Apr 20, 2005)

Are the Nazgul slaves to the Ring or Sauron? If the Balrog had the Ring, and used it, would the Nazgul not follow his will? I guess it's hard to say, especially since there is such a fine line between Sauron and the Ring, anyway. In _Letters_ , Tolkien says that if Frodo had the chance to ecounter the Nazgul at Orodruin, after he had claimed the Ring as his own, the Nazgul would not be able to take the Ring from him, but would have beckoned him come forth to see his new domain and then tricked him into going to Barud-dur, where Sauron, the true Master of the Ring, would have taken it. Maybe the same would have happened with the Balrog, if it had aquired the Ring. But, possibly, almost being Sauron's equal, and having the Ring, the Balrog would have triumphed. But Sauron would live on in the Ring.

But I don't think the Balrog even knew the Ring was within his reach. He just got peeed off at Gandalf for waking him up. Alas for the Balrog. He could have got Gandalf and conquered ME if he had know about the Ring. But he just got his butt kicked.


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