# Turin Turambar



## soltan gris (Oct 10, 2004)

For several weeks already I have researched one of the major characters in the Silmarilion - Turin (you will soon be able to find his extensive history in The Gallery of characters in the Library of the Istari). During the process I found out him to be not only one of the most complex characters in the works of J.R.R.Tolkien, but also one of the best developed. When you really think of it, there is no other single character (except Beren), who has a whole novel dedicated to him (Narn I Hin Hurin). So I'm willing to open a discussion about him, about his character and his impact on the history of the First Age.
Here are some topics:

1.Turin's temper. 



> Turin was slow to forget injustice or mockery; but the fire of his father was also in him, and he could be sudden and fierce. Yet he was quick to pity, and the hurts or sadness of living things might move him to tears...(Narn i Hin Hurin)


 
Do you think that the harsh temper of Turin served to his advantage or disadvantage? Most of the people feared him because of his sudden angers (like the outlaws or the people of Nargothrond); yet this seems not to hurt his reputation in general. 

2. Turin's pride
It is clear from his story that Turin was really a proud man. He showes this first when leaves Doriath, and then refuses the King's grace; he shows it when he upgrades his band of outlaws to an army and begins to fight openly the orcs; finally he shows it in Nargothrond, when he singlehandedly changes the kingdom's fighting style from secrecy to open war. 


> I wish to rule a land; but not this land. Here I desire only to gather strenght. To my father's land in Dor-lomin my heart turns, and thither I shall go when I may. (Narn I Hin Hurin, Appendix)


Do you think that Turin is too proud to accept an ordinary life as a mere soldier? And is this the reason for leaving Doriath, and then for everything he changes when he goes to the outlaws and later to Nargothrond?
Or he is just blind and oblivious for the full strenght of Morgoth? 
If he pities so much the creatures who suffer, why does he risk so many lives in open war against Angband? Pride?

3. Turin's private life.
He hardly has one, before Nienor Niniel. In Doriath there is a girl who loves him, Nellas, but he doesn't see that. The same in Nargothrond with Finduilas. It is stated that he is "dark-haired and pale-skinned, with grey eyes, and his face more beatutiful than any other among mortal Men." (Silmarilion, Of Turin Turambar). So, he obviously doesn't lack attention from women, but still he does nothing about it! Do you think that he simply does not have time for a love affair with all the battles he fights? Or there is another reason? 



> Always he sought in all faces of women the face of Lalaith. (Narn I Hin Hurin, Notes)


When he did married at last (for his own sister), he did it the first time he was away from battles, in Brethil. He had time now? Or he saw in his sister's face something he couldn't find anywhere else?

4. The curse of Morgoth.
(Now I think this is the most interesting topic)



> Upon all whom you love my thought shall weight as a cloud of Doom, and it shall bring them down into darkness and despair. Wherever they go, evil shall arise. Whenever they speak, their words shall bring ill counsel. Whatsoever they do shall turn against them. They shall die without hope, cursing both life and death. (Narn I Hin Hurin, The words of Hurin and Morgoth)


This is the curse Morgoth casts upon all the familly of Hurin. And it works really well - Turin's life turns to a real drama, with everything working against him. But do you thing this is only fate? Or there are some objective reasons for every tragedy?
- The death of Saeros. He dies falling down from a rock, a bad chance really. But this happeens while he is chased by Turin, whom he greatly fears. His sences and reactions are disturbed, he is scared to death; therefore it's very easy to miscalculate a dificult jump))))) Fate or not?
- The massacre on Amon Rhud. This happens when Turin had actually waged war on Morgoth for a whole year, and thus hindered the progress of his armies and frustrated him a great deal. Now would Mim have betrayed them if he hadn't been caught by the orcs? Why were the orcs around anyway? RIght, because of the army of the Two captains. Fate or not?
- The slaying of Beleg. Now this seems as a genuine greek tragedy. In the dark and stormy night the tortured captive wakes up and atacks his tormentors. But as we said before, Turin was quick to anger. What if he had waited for another moment after he woke up and had recognised Beleg? Fate or not?
- The Fall of Nargothrond. It is true that Morgoth searched for a long time for the Secret Kingdom of Finrod Felagund. But would he've found it but for the change of battle tactics of its armies? Before Turin came and began to speak against it, the fighters of Orodreth never revealed themselves to the enemy; the Doors of Felagund were also hidden before the Great Bridge was built. Again, fate or not?
- The uprising in Dor-lomin. This wouldn't have happened if Turin hadn't come there. The death of Broda which sparcled the uprising was caused by Turin's anger, not by some divine intervention. Fate or not? 
- The spell of Glaurung. The dragon affected the fate of Turin's familly three times: first when he made Turin to go to Dor-lomin instead of saving the captives and Finduilas; second, when he cast a spell of forgetfullness upon Nienor; and last when he came towards Brethil with the obvious intention of destroying the new home of Turin and his wife/sister. Would all this have happened but for his actions? What if he hadn't stop Turin from saving Finduilas?
As you can see every single tragedy in Turin's life has some objective explanation. Keeping this in mind, do you thing that Morgoth's curse really worked, or all this would have happened even without it, just becauseTurin had a difficult character?
Ok, that's all for now (I think it's really enough )
I wait your opinions!


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## Arvegil (Oct 12, 2004)

With regard to the Downfall of Nargothrond, was Turin acting as the agent of the fates/ Doom of Mandos? I think that beyond question his choices about bridges and tactics hastened Nargothrond's end; however, under the destiny of the Noldor, would there have been any real option, considering the pre-ordained fate of Nargothrond?


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## Richard (Oct 12, 2004)

Regarding Morgoth and the house of Beor curses always comes back to haunt you. that house lead to the provoking of the valar and later on the downfall of Sauron. the house of hurin may have lost but they gave the forces of evil a hard time. Some of them (Morwen) went down standing up. Richard


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## soltan gris (Oct 12, 2004)

According to the curse of Mandos everything the Noldors have achieved since they left Valinor should be destroyed. So Nargothrond would have fallen even if Turin had never crossed the Gates of Felagund. 
Put the point is: were Turin's actions in Nargothrond caused by the doom that results of the curse of Morgoth, or they would have been the same even without the curse; just because Turin was haughty and proud and didn't want to wage a war of shadows?


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## Lhunithiliel (Oct 13, 2004)

The issue *soltan* puts to discussion through Turin's case is both - an enormous and eternal one, hence needing a large-scale discussion... Yet on the other hand, it could be expressed in one sentence and decided that such an issue, precisely for being 'eternal', is not possible to be ever cleared...  

_*Fate ... or .... free will !!! *_

One of the biggest issues IMHO in Tolkien's works.

Had Turin acted because of the fate of his whole family, cursed by the mightiest Vala?

Or... were his actions a result from his own free will to do what he did because *he* believed it was the right thing to do and for what he was as a normal person with a specific character = his free choice, or call it 'will', based on his character and views ? 

Now... this issue has been discussed at large, as far as I've witnessed.

If it was because of his 'fate', then we come to my somewhat 'coarse' interpretation of the role of Eru and the Valar in the destiny of both - Immortal and Mortal Children - the one I call "the great puppet show". 

If we was because of his free choice, then ... won't the whole 'magic' of a myth be destroyed?  

If you ask me about it all, however, I'd say that Turin's story is a little bit of both - a mythical tale and a tale of real life, a tale expressing the very nature of Men's existence and purpose in this world. It is a powerful "lesson" from which to learn morals and think about the result from our actions. 

...Am I making sense ...


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## soltan gris (Oct 13, 2004)

well, I just figured out something that can put an end to the "fate-free will" discussion for good.
If you look back at the "Ainulindale" (I don't know if it's spelled right-I don't have the book in front of me) you'll notice several thinks:
1. When the great song of the Ainuri ends, Eru summons them to see what they had just created - and then they witness THE WHOLE HISTORY OF ARDA UNFOLDING BEFORE THEIR 'EYES' !!!!!!!!!!!!! UNTIL THE VERY END)))))
2. When the Valars descend into Arda they FOrget what they have seen. Hence, they have known before the whole history, until the very end.
Apparently everything is indeed predestined, wrought in the history of Arda during the Great Song of the Ainuri.
Well, that doesn't nessesserily end the the discussion - you are welcome to argue me


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## Gildor (Oct 13, 2004)

Fate and free will are often interwoven. 

Each man and woman lives and dies by who he or she is; a "choice" sometimes is not truly a choice given the circumstances, as the person will do the thing that suits his nature almost without fail. This is evident throughout Tolkien's works, such as Bilbo and Frodo being meant to find and destroy the Ring through their qualities as Hobbits, though at many turns they have the choice to do otherwise.

Thus Turin was a victim of fate and his own faults, for they are essentially one in the same. Morgoth's words may have been more foretelling rather than curse, though many of the dark things that befell Turin were no doubt a result of his malice. The rash temperment of Turin only served to aid him in these things.


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## MichaelMartinez (Oct 14, 2004)

Free will represents the power to make a choice. Melkor could have influenced Turin without removing his free will by clouding his judgement. The Valar could have influenced the Noldor without removing their free will by clouding their judgement as well.


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## Maedhros (Oct 14, 2004)

From _The Published Silmarillion: Of the Beginning of Days_


> But to the Atani I will give a new gift.' *Therefore to willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else;* and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest.


Túrin had all of the ability to make his decisions, he just messed up.


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## soltan gris (Oct 14, 2004)

Very good point Maedhros!

So the whole life of Turin is sort of a battle with his predestined fate; a battle he lost because of his character. 
Don't you think how strange it is that the natural temper of Turin and his actions, based on it, are contributing to the fulfilling of the curse of Morgoth


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## Lhunithiliel (Oct 15, 2004)

In answer and addition to my sonny's   quote:


> Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'


In other words - :_"Do what you wish, thinking it's your free will /choice... but behind all you do it is *I - Ilúvatar* who has in fact "moved your hand"! _  

Now ... what is striking IMO is the ... sort of a double attitude towards the issue of fate/free will, on behalf of the _'creator'_ - and by him I mean J.R.R.Tolkien. 

On one hand we read the words I quote above and it is obvious how the world is left with no truly free will at all! All that is Arda had been sung in the Music - hence predestined/prefashioned. And '_no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in _ him - Eru. Thus, what the creatures in this "pre-sung" world do is all _*fate*_ to them.

On the other hand, however, what Maedhros quoted, especially this part:


> ...but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else...


... may show us a different attitude towards the same issue - 'fate/free will' - a special and a different one! _*Only*_ Men are placed _*beyond*_ the Music, hence - out of the "pre-sung = predestined" world. 
Then ... what Men do .... can it be 'predestined'? Seems - not. At least not in Arda.


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## Walter (Oct 15, 2004)

Lhunithiliel said:


> In other words - :_"Do what you wish, thinking it's your free will /choice... but behind all you do it is *I - Ilúvatar* who has in fact "moved your hand"! _


This - IMO rather simplistc or naïve reading or interpretation of Tolkien's statement in the Ainulindalë - is of course not the only possible one. A more careful reading of the passage in question might lead to quite different results, even more so, when we consider how much thought Tolkien seems to have given the issue (and which can be gathered e.g. from his essay/lecture _Beowulf: The Monsters and the Critics_).

The terms '_theme_' and '_uttermost source_' , for example, leave some room for interpretation and a little pondering what the exact meaning of "altering the music in Eru's spite" is, might show that things are not as simple as they may seem. Everyone who has heard e.g. a Beethoven symphony conducted by Karajan and the same symphony conducted by Karl Böhm will note major differences, but does that mean that either one has "altered the music in Beethoven's spite"?

Other well read Tolkien scholars also seem to see the issue a little more differentiated. This very issue goes like a red thread through Verlyn Flieger's _Splintered Light_ and from both Tom Shippey's books I gather, that he too gave a little more thought to it.

Also one needed to give further thought to examinating how the exception of men can be brought into accordance with the passage quoted above, without leading to major discrepancies and contradictions.

Thus I do not think that every Tolkien reader or scholar is convinced that _"... it is obvious how the world is left with no truly free will at all!"_


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## Arvedui (Oct 15, 2004)

> no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite.


I think that the question at large here concerning free will must be understood in the manner that Illúvatar (and the Ainur) provides the general direction that Arda will develop in. The details are up the individual to provide with. 
I think that some sort of proof of this is that no matter how hard he tries, Morgoth is unable to hinder tha fact that Arda seen over a long timespan develops in a positive way.
Yes, bad things happen to indiviuals along the way, but at the point where Tolkien finishes writing, both Morgoth and Sauron are gone. Arda is a more peaceful place than it ever has been.


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## Arvegil (Oct 15, 2004)

Arvedui said:


> I think that the question at large here concerning free will must be understood in the manner that Illúvatar (and the Ainur) provides the general direction that Arda will develop in. The details are up the individual to provide with.
> I think that some sort of proof of this is that no matter how hard he tries, Morgoth is unable to hinder tha fact that Arda seen over a long timespan develops in a positive way.
> Yes, bad things happen to indiviuals along the way, but at the point where Tolkien finishes writing, both Morgoth and Sauron are gone. Arda is a more peaceful place than it ever has been.


But yet, following that line of reasoning, one could conclude that free will exists only on a limited extent, and covering the more minor matters (i.e. Nargothrond was destined to fall; the mechanism was Turin's free will poor decisions). On the bigger issues, the illusion of free will might continue to exist, but Iluvatar loaded the dice from the outset, either limiting or predetermining the possible outcomes.


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## soltan gris (Oct 19, 2004)

Well, as far as the discussion goes 'til now I think that both sides have evidences for their claims in the 'Ainulindale'. However, I think that this presents a serious contradiction in Tolkien's works:
1. The Atani, or the race of Men, are the latter Children of Illuvatar. They are numerous and powerfull - and even more so after the decline of the Eldars in the third age. Actually, according to LOTR and everything else, THEY WILL BE THE MAIN RULERS OF MIDDLE-EARTH DURING THE FOURTH AGE, and maybe beyond (since the Elves have gone to Eldamar and have no more an impact on the history of Middle-Earth). 
2. If the Men have free will and are able to change the Fate of Arda, and since they are so powerfull, THEN THE HELL WITH THE MUSIC OF THE AINURS! 
Immagine what would happen to the world if several Turins are unleashed upon it simultaneously, with all their unpredictability and unwise decisions! How long will there be before someone thinks of letting Morgoth back into Arda?
3. So, following this line of thoughts, it seems nearly impossible that Men have really the power to go beyond the Music. It would ruin the whole thing!
But, STILL, there are the words of Illuvatar:


> ...but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else...


????????????????????? ?????????????????? ?????????????? ????????????
What do you make out of this?

Oh, a side note:

Who was the only one who dared to challenge the Valars in THEIR OWN REALM after the Fall of Morgoth?


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## Lhunithiliel (Oct 20, 2004)

Ask me  .... well, I have already expressed my opinion in my previous post, and even though this opinion was considered as "rather simplistc or naïve reading or interpretation of Tolkien's statement" , still I hold to it. 

And in continuation on the issue - _"Music" - "Men"_, I would like to provide another quote from AINULINDALË (The Music of the Ainur):


> But they had become enamoured of the beauty of the vision and engrossed in the unfolding of the World which came there to being, and their minds were filled with it; for the history was incomplete and the circles of time not full-wrought when the vision was taken away. And some have said that the vision ceased ere the fulfilment of the Dominion of Men and the fading of the Firstborn; wherefore, though the Music is over all, the Valar have not seen as with sight the Later Ages or the ending of the World.


Now then ... it is one thing to think that the Ainur could not "watch" the 'show' till the drop of the curtains .... and quite another thing - to think that Men never come into the 'show' at all!!! (understand 'show' as the 'Music'  )

In the first case, it is *all* there - Men's fate, role etc. pre-sung too, but just _not shown_. Then - 'adios' to any possibility for 'free will'!

If however they were not 'included' in the 'show' at all, then their role and importance become extremely large ! 

As I pointed out in my previous post, I personally, see all this as a double attitude towards this issue on part of Tolkien ... He seems to both - want to show how great Man can be and what powers he has and how great his deeds may be and how crucial for the destiny of this world .... Yet, on the other hand - there we have God - the Allmighty who has pre-arranged it all as per his own vision...  

And what is even more intriguing, when start thinking about these things, is to remember the 'red line' in the 'Athrabet' - "Men are guests in this world" !!! 

But ... in fact, there are lots of 'red lines' in that 'jewel' of writing!!! And in fact, a lot can be found there on the subject of the present discussion  ...


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## Arvedui (Oct 20, 2004)

I still hold my view that _The Music of the Ainur _ only gave the general direction of the development of Arda. Occations as the destruction of Nargothrond, and Gondolin for that matter, happened because of free will, mixed with the malice of Morgoth.


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## soltan gris (Oct 20, 2004)

well, Arvedui, I still hold to my opinion, that events as large as the fall of kingdoms are really important enough to change history. And Men are more than capable of achieving such falls, as evidently from the whole history of Middle-Earth.So I think such a partial explanation of the matter doesn't really work 
I agree more with the opinion of Lhun for now


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## Walter (Oct 20, 2004)

> Ask me .... well, I have already expressed my opinion in my previous post, and even though this opinion was considered as "rather simplistc or naïve reading or interpretation of Tolkien's statement" , still I hold to it.





> Few ever changed her courses by counsel, none by force.




Now, since everyone seems to hold to their opinion, maybe we should let a poll decide what Tolkien really meant?


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## Arvedui (Oct 21, 2004)

Nah, let's just make this easy:
You can stick with your opinions and interpretations, I'll stick with Tolkien's.


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## Lhunithiliel (Oct 21, 2004)

Just a sec... Do you mean to say we are not 'sticking' to Tolkien?


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## Arvedui (Oct 21, 2004)

I meant that I think it is actually great that we are able to get two (at least) different views from the same works.


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## soltan gris (Oct 21, 2004)

ok, I think that I need to read Tolkien's letters. Maybe there will be some link there as to what he really ment for the 'fate' think.
Someone care to inform me where I can find the letters?


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## Walter (Oct 21, 2004)

Tolkien's letters are sure interesting, though on the issue of fate, I'd rather read his essay _Beowulf: The Monsters & the Critics_, from there - especially in his elaborations on _lof_ and _dom_ - you might get a better idea how Tolkien understood the role of fate in a pagan world...

Your local bookstore would be a good starting point when you're looking for _The Letters..._, or - if that doesn't work - you can find them at Amazon's or Barnes & Noble's online stores.

<Comment removed by Ithrynluin.>


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## Walter (Oct 22, 2004)

> Trying to impose an opinion about the Bulgarian TTF mermbers as a gang of hackers dealing with illegal material ?!!!


No, in fact I was "letting out a piece of private information" with this sentence, which I shouldn't have done!

However, I hope you will understand, that I would prefer not to elaborate further on this statement of mine...


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## Walter (Oct 22, 2004)

Now there are some interesting statements...

But maybe you should re-consider your position, Gil-Galad, and/or maybe consult a lawyer for some appropriate information regarding Copyrights and Hacking... 

However, I am glad you at least removed that part of your post that said _"So I am not doing anything wrong.  -I will provide him with the letters. _".

This information you will find at the page opposite to the Contents page in _The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien_ by H. Carpenter:



> All rights reserved. No part of this publication may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system, or transmitted, in any form or by any means, electronic, mechanical, photocopying, recording or otherwise, without the prior permission of the publishers.
> This book is sold subject to the condition that it shall not, by way of trade or otherwise, be lent, re-sold, hired out or otherwise circulated without the publisher's prior consent in any form of binding or cover other than that in which it is published and without a similar condition including this condition being imposed on the subsequent purchaser.



Just in case that part of information is omitted in the copy you possess...


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## Arvegil (Oct 30, 2004)

soltan gris said:


> ok, I think that I need to read Tolkien's letters. Maybe there will be some link there as to what he really ment for the 'fate' think.
> Someone care to inform me where I can find the letters?


I got my copy from Amazon.com. They did not have it hardback, but the paperback edition is reasonably nice. There is some interesting stuff in there about a lot of things Tolkien. And if you ever want ammunition for backing up a claim that Tolkien was very anti-technology, anything he wrote to Christopher about the RAF is a good start.


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## Aiwendil2 (Nov 23, 2004)

No need to guess when Tolkien is explicit:



> According to the _Ainulindale_ there were five stages in Creation. a. The creation of the Ainur. b. The communication by Eru of his Design to the Ainur. c. The Great Music, which was as it were a rehearsal, and remained in the stage of thought or imagination. d. The 'Vision' of Eru, which was again only a foreshowing of possibility, and was incomplete. e. The Achievement, which is still going on.
> The Eldar held that Eru was and is free at all stages . . . He may therefore in stage 5 introduce things directly, which were not in the Music and so are not achieved through the Valar.



This does not say anything about free will, but it does necessitate that things can happen that were not contained in the Music, and so it kills at least the argument that the Music, being a complete description of Arda, must contain the actions of Men.


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