# Celtic Myths and LoTR: Parallels?



## Helcaraxë (Sep 12, 2003)

I have been studying Celtic Myths for a time and I was struck by the strong connection between it and the LoTR

Ex:

Valinor = Spirit Land

Valar = Gods 

Oisin = Beren

Taliesin = Bilbo

The Dagda = Manwe

Dana = Yavanna

Melkor = Balor of the Evil Eye

Dark Lords = Fomorians

The list goes on. Perhaps Tolkien drew more heavily than I previously thought from Celtic Lore. Comments?


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## elffriend (Sep 22, 2003)

I have always felt that Tolkien had leaned towards the Celtic myths in his writings, but most peopl have not agreed with me, I am glad that I am not the only one who thinks this.
There is another myth from the Celtic mythology that Tolkien had possibly read and that is the one about, Owain and Luned, Luned gave Owain a ring of invisability.


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## Kelonus (Sep 22, 2003)

Other things do give people thoughts to write books.


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## Starflower (Sep 22, 2003)

I know for a fact that Tolkien drew his inspiration for the story of Turin Turambar very heavily from a story in the Finnish mythology. It doesn't make him any less of a writer, on the contrary , it is a good write who can incorporate myths and legends into his own writing .



Starflower


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## Lhunithiliel (Sep 22, 2003)

Well, it seems so... Tolkien was truly inspired by the ancient Icelandic and Nordic myths.
But let's not forget that his intention for writing his legendarium was to *create mythology* and in which myths there are no supreme gods, goddesses of the earth and gods of evil...? Every nation on this planet has the roots of its culture in ancient myths and legends and the "picture" of pagan gods is present almost everywhere.
So, I just think that Tolkien was in fact *inspired* by those Scandinavian sagas and this is a firm fact, but that he is an outstanding mind that has "produced" one of the marvels in the world literature - this is also a firm fact. Right?
Besides, we are all humans after all. What one writes surely comes from his mind but this particular mind is for sure influenced and in fact formed and featured under the influence of the society around. Tolkien seems to have been deeply interested in the myths of the peoples of Iceland (former dwellers of Norway if I'm not mistaken) and also in Finish heroic tales like Beowulf and by some others... But what he wrote is just..... *outstanding* for the masterpiece of submitting the story and for the unlimited flight of his imagination - so strong that one can only follow and enjoy.... Right?


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## Kelonus (Sep 22, 2003)

I know when I write my stories, it gives a great feeling. One in which I appreciate and want to tell others, but the way you see and try to have them see it doesnt work out, which kind of sucks.


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## elffriend (Sep 22, 2003)

I did not mean to imply that Tolkiens writings were anything but Great masterpieces, which were meant as a mythology for England. What his influences were makes no difference, as most mythologies, whether Norse, Irish, or Celtic, have many parallels, and are very similiar, the names and places maybe different, but the stories are all about great heroes and villians, good and evil, strength and power, and the ability to do what is deemed to be the right thing.


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## Starflower (Sep 23, 2003)

> So, I just think that Tolkien was in fact inspired by those Scandinavian sagas and this is a firm fact, but that he is an outstanding mind that has "produced" one of the marvels in the world literature - this is also a firm fact. Right?




I do agree that he "produced" the great masterpiece that we know as the world of Middle-earth, and yes he was inspired by Scandinavian sagas, but what I meant was that as the myths and legends are jsut that , there are no copyright issues, and the story I was referring to is called "Kullervo" , and it is almost exatly the same as tale of Turin. Tolkien himself admitted being very strongly influenced by these legends, and he saw nothing wrong in incorporating them into his own stories.



> Tolkien seems to have been deeply interested in the myths of the peoples of Iceland (former dwellers of Norway if I'm not mistaken) and also in Finish heroic tales like Beowulf



Icelandic people are jsut that, Icelandic. The island was populated by people from all over Scandinavia, but that was a couple of thousand years ago... and Beowulf is most definitely not a Finnish heroic tale  it's origin's are in the British Isles 


 
Starflower


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## Lhunithiliel (Sep 23, 2003)

Well... about Beowulf... you surely must know much better than someone from the far south-east  Perhaps this is why I find the mythology of the northern peoples so interesting - much different from what we grew up with here in the Balkans 

Anyway, I just wanted to add that I have read somewhere what Tolkien himself said once about being influenced by the Nordic sagas - (I can't quote exactly) ....that whenever he read a saga or a legend or a tale he found a burning desire within himself to write a similar thing.
I guess most people feel the same way - both when they read what Tolkien had once read and reading Tolkien himself! This "burning creative desire" becomes so strong!  .......
But can one always tell the story in such a masterful way as Tolkien did?.......  
***

What I would VERY MUCH interested to learn is about those paralels between Tolkien and Celtic legends and tales and even further back - the connection of the Celtic tales to the more ancient sagas of the northern peoples of ancient Europe... 

I think that if we get the "picture" from both points of view - history and literature/folklore - then it can help greatly to get a miuch better understanding ...... Don't you think so?


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## Lantarion (Sep 23, 2003)

Just to elaborate a little on Starflower's excellent point, the story of Kullervo is only a small part of the collection/collective of ancient Finnish (mostly Karelian) legends and beliefs, collected by Elias Lönnrot, which is known as the _Kalevala_. 
Anyway, sorry to break the conversation up a bit but the topic was *Celtic* (is that pronounced with an 's' or a 'k', I can never remember) myths specifically; so if anybody has more info pertaining to Celtic mythology and applicability thereof in Toklien's works, step right up!


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## Lhunithiliel (Sep 23, 2003)

This is not and can not be a subject any doubt! 

But what I'd expect from this thread is what I said in my previous post:


> What I would VERY MUCH interested to learn is about those paralels between Tolkien and Celtic legends and tales and even further back - the connection of the Celtic tales to the more ancient sagas of the northern peoples of ancient Europe...
> 
> I think that if we get the "picture" from both points of view - history and literature/folklore - then it can help greatly to get a miuch better understanding ...... Don't you think so?


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## Starflower (Sep 23, 2003)

what is it exactly you would liek to know ? the parallels between Tolkien and the legends ?

care to be a bit more specific, cause there is a lot of similarities.... 

Starflower


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## Lhunithiliel (Sep 23, 2003)

Oh, thank you! 

What I am so very much interested is to learn about those Celtic tales that have found some reflection in Tolkien's works and more than that - the historical backround of the Clets and their culture.

What I was thinking reading the posts in the present thread was that the Celts (if I'm not mistaken) were considered the natives on the British island. But they themselves had once come from Northern Europe. So, their culture must have derived from the culture of the Northern peoples.
So, you see, I'm looking for the whole historical "line", as history is the ground for the culture of a nation. Right?  

So, it would be extremely interesting to trace the "roots" of a tale by Tolkien - does it have them deep back in the history of the island and its people or do they lie in the ancient culture of the Scandinavian peoples whose culture is said to have strongly influenced Tolkien.

Paralels! This is exactly what the thread is about! Right? 
***********

Browsing through my *favourite encyclopedia* - the Tolkien Wiki, here is what I found.

OMG!!!!!  
If I have to read ALL that stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Lantarion (Sep 24, 2003)

I'm not sure now, but I don't think the Celts came from Scandinavia..


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## Starflower (Sep 24, 2003)

don;t think so either....us Scandinavians tend to either stay put or plunder further away, ie the coast of present day Canada 



> The Celts are Circaesir from Circaesya, who lived on the Sea of Grass in what is now west Kazakhstan until late in the second millennium B.C. They were by their own definition a linguistic group, but now they are a culture. Contrary to popular belief, they had nothing to do with European inhabitants known to archaeologists as the 'Beaker folk' and 'Battle Axe people'. The 'Urnfield people' farther east were Circaesir, and obviously related to the Celts. Their descendants integrated with Celts in central Europe




but there are so many mythologies and legends that it would be inconceivable to think that Tolkien wouldn't touch at least some of them in his work, after all he was a professor of the english language and studied old myths as part of his job/


Starflower


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## Walter (Oct 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lhunithiliel _
> *Oh, thank you!
> 
> What I am so very much interested is to learn about those Celtic tales that have found some reflection in Tolkien's works and more than that - the historical backround of the Clets and their culture.
> ...


 Now "The Early History of Britain" wouldn't that be a nice topic for one of the lectures of your guild? 

I'm probably not the best suited member to give a sketch of the British history - since I'm neither British nor am I well-read in British history - , but since none else did it here so far, I'll give it a try:

Britain was part of the European continent until some 7000 or 8000 years ago. 




> 'In the days of the Great Kings when a man could still walk dryshod from Rome to York...'
> 
> HoMeXII


 Megalithic "culture" probably came from Spain and/or France, then (~800BC) came the Celts who had spread all over Europe from about 2000BC. Next were the Romans, the Celts were forced westwards (Wales and Ireland), and northwards. Scots (from Ireland) came to the North where they and the Picts, who also had resisted the Romans, remained independent. When the Romans "officially left" again, a troubled period began, Saxons, Angles, Jutes and Danes were the new invaders from the European North. When those turmoils eventually had settled some (~1000 AD) the Normans (from north-west France) invaded what Tolkien now saw as "England".

Tolkien drew from the mythologies of all those - Greek/Roman, Celtic and Germanic (he disliked the term Nordic) - groups to create his "mythology", but he dedicated it to "England", the land of the "Anglo-Saxons" as he probably saw it and I think his own Saxon roots played a certain role in this...

Regarding the Celtic myths that are to some degree woven into Tolkien's tales, there's this book from Lesley Ellen Jones who elaborates quite ponderously on that issue...


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## Lhunithiliel (Oct 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Walter _
> *Now "The Early History of Britain" wouldn't that be a nice topic for one of the lectures of your guild? *


*
Indeed!
But, after I read what you have provided as a brief historical overview, I wonder.... Why don't YOU expand it and I'll "try" to find a place for your work within the tight schedule of the Lecture Round? I think, I'll talk Eri into it.  *


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## Walter (Oct 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lhunithiliel _
> *Indeed!
> But, after I read what you have provided as a brief historical overview, I wonder.... Why don't YOU expand it and I'll "try" to find a place for your work within the tight schedule of the Lecture Round? I think, I'll talk Eri into it.   *


No, thanks... 

On the one hand it is clear that one of our British or Irish members would qualify much better for this task - maybe aided by a Scandinavian regarding the "Viking" and Danish influenced parts -, on the other hand I cannot commit to anything that laborous at the moment...


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## Lhunithiliel (Oct 17, 2003)

Sure!
Why am I not surprised?!


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## Rhiannon (Oct 20, 2003)

I think we can assume that Tolkien read Celtic mythology, and I certainly thing he borrowed from it, all though it might not have been intentional. 

But mythology tends to repeat the same motifs and archtypes, so it's impossible to say what came from where unless Tolkien himself said.


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## Helcaraxë (Oct 20, 2003)

I agree with Lhun that Tolkien's story came from his own mind. This mind, however was heavily influenced by scandavina myth. Tolkien himself was an avid student of Celitc history.

-MB


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## Gandalf The Grey (Oct 27, 2003)

Hail, *Morgoth's Bane,* 

Well met! * bows a greeting *

Thank you for starting a thread on a topic that's been of interest to me for some years.

On a visit to Ireland in 1991, I picked up a book called "Irish Folk & Fairytales Omnibus" by Michael Scott. References in this book give further indication of the parallels you're drawing between Tolkien's Elves and Celtic Elves.

When you mention Valinor equating to the spirit world, I think of references to "Isles of the West" (p. 74, The Return of Oison ) and Tir na nOg --



> Tir na nOg ... It exists beyond this world, beyond the Shadowland, in a place which is set apart. … And the land is inhabited by a happy people, the Elven folk. (pp. 138-139, Conla and the Faery Maid)



Throughout the book, Elves are given such names as "the Elder race" and "the Shining Ones," and described as tall, thin, and wearing cloaks. They have kings and ride forth to battle on horseback.

And when it comes to the conception of time colored by Elvish immortality, there's a description that seems to me strikingly similar to Tolkien's vision:



> Time was a human measurement and the elven folk did not number the passing days and keep the fleeting years. If anything of theirs reckoned time, it was a subtle appreciation of nature, of spans of growth, decay and regrowth … for there was no death in the elven fields. (p. 206, The Last Outpost)



I hope to also post soon some information on Scandinavian history and its appearance/influence on Tolkien's works as well.

Looking forward to exchanging ideas with you and all other conversationalists here present,

Gandalf the Grey


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## Helcaraxë (Nov 7, 2003)

*returns geeting*

Yes, I've been rolling this subject over in my mind for a while ever since I got interested in pagan mythology; glad some people are of like mind.

--MB


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## Starflower (Nov 7, 2003)

Tolkien himself admitted on many occasions that he modelled
the grammar and form of Quenya in FInnish, which he studied as a hobby, so he could read the FInnish national epic 'Kalevala' in its language of origin. The reasoning behind this was that something would inevitably be lost in translation, taht only the original would truly convey the meaning and spirit of the stories. He ended up taking many stories in the 'Kalevala' and reshaping them to fit Middle-earth, the most famous one being the story of Turin Turambar, which was modeled on the story of Kullervo in the Finnish epic. I see nothing wrong in this, myths and legends are common heritage, you can't have copyright on myths. This in no way diminishes Tolkien's work, quite the opposite. He has to be credited to bringing these myths and legends to life again, rewriting them and thus bringing them out to a larger audience that they maybe otherwise would have been received.


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## jallan (Nov 8, 2003)

Compare the story of Bran’s expedition to Ireland in the Third Branch of the Welsh _Mabinogion_ to the expedition of the Gunther and Hagen to the Etzel’s hall in the _Niebelunglenlied_. They are obviously variants of the same tale, more clearly so in the version in the Icelandic _Thiðrekssaga_ where Hagan/Högni initiates the final battle by suddenly killing his young nephew at a banquet, just as his counterpart Efnisien does in the _Mabinogion_.

Tales and motifs float between cultures, some found world wide.

Tolkien was a Germanic philologist who had studied and taught Old Icelandic.

He generally favored Germanic legends himself, in part because he had less taste for the wilder and madder and more stylized Celtic legends.

The idea of isles of immortal folk that appears in Irish tales seems to be what Tolkien mostly took from the Celts into his mythology. GandalftheGray has posted already about the parallels between Irish immortals and their lands and some of what Tolkien writes.

One might also notice a possible connection between Oromë who is in Sindarin _Araw_ from the West (_Annûn_) and the supernatural huntsman _Arawn_ Head of _Annwn_ who appears in the First Branch of the Welsh _Mabinogion_.

Coincidence in the names? Maybe. 

Of course Sindarin was mostly based on Welsh in its phonology and style. 

The parallels that MogothsBane finds are weak.

The immensely strong but gluttonous and crude god Dagda is not much like Manwë. In style the Dagda with his great club seems more like the Norse Thor and some think the Dagda may have been a thunder god also in the days before the Irish pantheon was mostly euhemerized.

Danu is barely mentioned in surviving texts, other than in the phrase _Tuatha Dé Danaan_ ‘People of the Goddess Danu’. We don’t know enough about her to equate her with any of Tolkien’s Valar.

Her Welsh cognate Dôn was mother of Gwydion, Gilfaethwy, Gofannon the Smith and Amaethon ‘Ploughman’ apparently the representative gods of the four classes of Celtic society: priests/Druids/bards, aristocratic warriors, craftsmen, commoners.

There is nothing of this in Tolkien.

Bilbo is hardly Taliesin because he writes poetry. All cultures have their poets and Taliesin is not the only bard in Celtic stories. Genuine surviving works of Taliesin are strring songs, mostly in praise of King Urien.

Beren is hardly Oisin. This is told also of other Celtic and Germanic and French and Greek heroes.

A comparison of the Eye of Sauron with the eye of Balor has been made by others. But the Norse Óðinn also had but one eye.

It is not clear that Sauron did have one eye only or whether Tolkien is using metaphoric language referring to Sauron’s ability to look out on the world and see much that was occurring.

Balor as the greatest of the opponents of the Tuatha Dé Danaan of necessity corresponds to Melkor. But the clever god Lug who overthrows him is hardly Tolkien’s Tulkas.

Norse myth provides Loki as the Melkor counterpart, once one of the gods himself and later imprisoned by them.

The Zoroastrian faith gives Angra Mainyu (Ahriman).

Tolkien’s mythology is a little bit from here and a little bit from there, very well mixed with so much of his own imagination that origins of this or that part of it are obscured.

Celtic hero legnd speaks much of chariots and charioteers and Tolkien writes almost nothing about this kind of society. Nor do his Valar live in an otherworld parallel to and coexisting with our own where what are simple hills in our world are divine fortresses in the world of the gods.

This parallel world idea is very strong in Irish legend but absent altogether from Tolkien other than a few remarks about the Wraith World. But certainly the Valar don’t live in the Wraith World.

Note that by his own admission, Tolkien was not particularly learned in comparative mythology and legend, though certainly more so than many who read his books. And he certainly knew less when he first drew up his mythos of the Valar than he later learned.

And Tolkien did not put much of what learning he had into his tales to the point that any reading of the Norse Eddas on even _Beowulf_ is at all necessary to explain anything in his writings.

Tolkien either changes radically what he has borrowed or he freshly invents. You can’t fill in the gaps in Tolkien by finding versions of the same stories in mythological or legendary texts.


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## Gandalf The Grey (Nov 8, 2003)

* bows greetings to *Morgoth's Bane, Starflower, jallan,* and all other participants in this discussion *

Though I fear I cannot match the eloquence and expertise of the rest of you, yet I hope to offer some information of interest relating to the likelihood of Tolkien's drawing of character names from Scandinavian history. 

In fact, I am going to quote from the results of some genealogical research sent to me by my father in e-mail. I strongly prefer not to name my father here publicly, but am quite willing to privately give out his name and e-mail address to any administrator here at TTF who may wish to check my source, and to verify that my father gives me his permission to quote him without using his name. I am also willing to delete this post if those in charge of TTF feel that is the proper course of action. The historical veracity of this information can also be researched on the internet on a do-it-yourself basis, but might prove an incredibly painstaking process.

That said, here is the information:



> Alfhild Gandolfsdatter:
> 
> Birth; about 665 in Denmark, Death 759 in Uppsala, Sweden: (Occupation: Princess of Sweden and Denmark)
> 
> ...



According to this, I'm related to the real Gandalf.
And Frodo, as well.


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## Freawine (Nov 9, 2003)

Tolkien borrowed the name _Gandalf_ from the eddic lay _Voluspá_, stanza 12, where it is mentioned in a list of dwarf names:

Veigur og Gandálfur, 
Vindálfur, Þráinn, 
Þekkur og Þorinn, 
Þrár, Vitur og Litur, 
Nár og Nýráður, 
nú hefi eg dverga, 
- Reginn og Ráðsviður, - 
rétt um talda. 

Veig and Gandálf, 
Vindálf, Thráin, 
Thekk and Thorin, 
Thror, Vitr, and Litr, 
Núr and Nýrád, 
Regin and Rádsvid. 
Now of the dwarfs 
I have rightly told. 

For such reason it was the initial name of the character that would latter be called Thorin. Tolkien, however, realized that _Gand-Alf_ (something like _Magic Staff Elf_) was much more suitable for the wizard from _The Hobbit_. It does appear in other texts, yes, even as a first name of non-dwarvish characters, but it was the _Voluspá_ that gave the Professor the idea.


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## jallan (Nov 9, 2003)

GandalftheGrey posted some genealogical data which is indeed a proper rendering of the genealogies as given in _some_ of the surviving material for the legendary Sigurd Ring and his legendary son Ragnar Lodbrok (Ragnar Hairy-breeches).

What data we have on these personages in Icelandic and Danish sources is confused and inconsistant, as partly indicated by the statement in GandalftheGrey’s material:


> ... Alfhild was already 65 years old when her husband Sigurd was born, ...


It is only with the supposed sons of Ragnar Lodbrok son of Sigurd Ring that we enter on the margins of history, at least to the extent that Viking rulers that are certainly historical are in later tales identified with sons of Ragnar Lodbrok. Whether this tradition is true or not is another question (much debated by some but by most ignored as the debate seems to be fruitless).

The Icelandic and Danish accounts do not agree with one another much less with what history we get from contemporary Frankish annals.

Saxo Grammaticus in his _History of the Danes_ presents two separate Ring characters flourishing at different periods. It cannot be known whether Saxo or someone else has split apart into separate tales what was once one tale or whether similar characters who flourished at different times have been confused and Saxo in part has kept them separate.

According to Saxo’s first account in Book VII, Harold is king of Denmark and Sweden and Ring is his nephew fathered on his sister by Ingild the former king of Sweden. The civil war between the Harold and Ring is the famous battle of Bravalla in which Harold perishes and Ring gains the thrones of both Denmark and Sweden.

But in Book IX we find Siward Ring (_Siwardus_ being a Latinization of _Sigurd_) son of Siward by a daughter of Gotrig and his cousin Ring who is also a grandson of Gotrig. They fight for the throne. Ring is slain but Siward Ring dies soon after and his son Ragnar Lodbrok succeeds to the throne.

An attempt to list the kings of Denmark known to dependable history can be read at Kings of Denmark. The pertinent section is:


> SIGIFRID ii (d. 812) and ANULO (d. 812), claimants to throne in the civil war of 812. Sigifrid ii was "nepos" of Godefrid, and Anulo was
> "nepos" of the former king Harald i. Both were killed in the resulting struggle, but Anulo's party won, and his brothers became kings. It is unclear whether the two factions in this civil war
> (i.e., the relatives of Harald vs. the relatives of Godefrid) were two different families or two different branches of the same family.
> [Note: This battle in 812 was the ultimate source of the famous (but quite fictional) "Battle of Bravalla" which is a part of the
> ...


GandalftheGrey’s source also uses the date 812 for Bravalla, making the same identification as is made here.

But whether that conflict was indeed the souce of the famous legendary battle of Bravalla or a later battle that was confused with it is something scholars argue about.

Some comparative mythologists have brought forth good arguments that the story around the battle of Bravalla is mostly not historical at all, at least as applied to medieval Denmark, but is a variant of the same tale that is the central story of the Hindu _Mahabharata_. See Bravalla /Mahabharata Comparison.

In any case _Gandolf_ from _gandr_ + _ulfr_ ‘wolf’ is not the same name as _Gandalf_ from _gandr_ + _alfr_ ‘elf’. The former was quite common throughout Europe in such forms as _Gandolfo_, _Gandolpho_, _Gondolfo_ and _Gondolpho_. But the only cases of _Gandalfr_ I know of are its appearance as a Dwarf name in the list of Dwarfs and as applied to a king in Snorri Sturluson’s _Heimskringla_ in Harald Hafargar’s Saga.

_Frodo_ is a Latinized form of Old Norse _Fróði_, Old English _Froda_ applied to a number of legendary kings who supposedly ruled over Denmark or over kingdoms within the area now known as Denmark. Saxo Grammaticus distinguishes six kings named Frodo/Frotho in the legendary period. But it is apparent from the Old English _Beowulf_ that Saxo’s Frodo II of Denmark (supposedly the twenty-third king) is identical to Froda of the Heathobards who is an elder contemporary of Hrothgar in _Beowulf_. But Hrothgar appears in Saxo as Roe, the twelfth king.

Other sources (of course) differ as to numbers and titles and genealogies of various kings named Frodo. The sources tend to differ about everything.


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## Gandalf The Grey (Nov 9, 2003)

Many thanks for the additional information, *jallan* and *Freawine,* 

* bows gratitude *

Genealogy has become my father's passion since his retirement, and he approaches it with all the gusto of a Hobbit. As he strives for the keenest accuracy (as far as is possible when history meets legend), he'll therefore highly appreciate your insight and wealth of sources. I'm planning on e-mailing him a copy of your posts soon, trusting that this is all right with you.

Gandalf the Grey


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## jallan (Nov 11, 2003)

Well, I can hardly stop you sending him a URL to the post, can I?  

But of course you can send the entire post if you wish.

A great problem with personal genalogies on the web is that often there seems no concern with sources. To my way of thinking every single liink ought to have at least one source reference, including a reference to the primary source even if the creator of the genealogy has not been able to check it: e.g. “Primary source: MSS 5623 Bodloan, assignment of land to John Nonesuch and his son Samuel Nonesuch, cited by A.G. Tracing in _Old Families of Loamshire_, 1872.”.

If there is more than one theory about the parenthood of a particular person then all theories ought to appear with some evaluation of them. That is the difference between genuine genealogical study and a simple list of names and dates picked up from who-knows-where which is what many web genealogies seem to be.

Sometimes it is pretty obvious that after a certain point the genealogy is an invented one, e.g. Ragnar Lodbrok’s wife Aslaug is very unlikely to be the daughter of Sigurð the Volsung by Brynhild the sister of Attila the Hun, at least if Ragnar Lodbrok son of Sigurð Ring is really to be placed in the ninth century.

But the amusing note in the genalogical reference about Alfhild being 65 years old at the birth of her future husband suggests your father or someone has a sense of humor about such discrepencies in legendary records.


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## Helcaraxë (Nov 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jallan _
> *
> 
> The parallels that MogothsBane finds are weak.
> ...



Yes, you do seem very interested in bashing all my ideas don't you? Perhaps you are right that some of my parallels are not entirely accurate, but you do not have to dissect my post in such a manner. Even if your geneological and mythological knowledge exceeds mine.

Anyway, the Valar do (in a sense) live in a "Spirit world" type place. When, after the fall of Numenor, Eru removed Valinor from the circles of the world, it was no longer accesible by men. Some of Tolkien's wording implies that it existed at least partially in a seperate world. 
--MB


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## jallan (Nov 19, 2003)

Morgothbane posted:


> Yes, you do seem very interested in bashing all my ideas don't you? Perhaps you are right that some of my parallels are not entirely accurate, but you do not have to dissect my post in such a manner. Even if your geneological and mythological knowledge exceeds mine.



I’m not particularly interested in bashing your ideas, Morgothbane.

When a reader looks at an author’s work sometimes apparent parallels to something else that the reader knows emerge.

Sometimes such parallels are meaningful in respect to sources used by the author and the intent of the author. Sometimes they are not.

If you put such things up for discussion, as is reasonable to do, they will either be supported or shot down by others. Or both may happen and a heated debate emerges. That’s the way it is.

And I don’t think it would have been correct to simply say that I didn’t agree with you and not explain why.

If my tone seemed too harsh, I apologize.


> Anyway, the Valar do (in a sense) live in a "Spirit world" type place. When, after the fall of Numenor, Eru removed Valinor from the circles of the world, it was no longer accesible by men. Some of Tolkien's wording implies that it existed at least partially in a seperate world.


Yes, they do.

The main difference between that and surviving Irish tales is that the otherworld is mostly imagined as interpentrating our world. A standard trope is for a character to wander into a mist which clears and where an empty hill stood a fortress now appears.

The spirit world of Ireland is all about Ireland, not only beyond the sea.

On the other hand, in Fenian tales Finn and his Men in many accounts mix and even intermarry with the Tuatha Dé Danaan almost as the Tuatha Dé Danaan were another kind of human. In these tales they are more on the same plain with each other.

This somewhat resembles the situation in the Tolkien’s First Age where mortals and Elves live mostly separately yet intemingle in ways that resemble that of the Fenians and the Tuatha Dé Danaan.

One might also wonder if the idea of the Rangers might not in part derive from the Fenians.


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## Helcaraxë (Nov 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jallan _
> *Morgothbane posted:
> 
> I’m not particularly interested in bashing your ideas, Morgothbane.
> ...



You're right, of course.

When you say Finn, do you mean Finn McCool?

Also, in one instance (Melian and Thingol), even Ainur intermarried with men.

--MB


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## jallan (Nov 19, 2003)

Yes, Finn McCool or Finn MacCumail or Fionn mac Cumhail.

I’ve read Tales of the Elders of Ireland: Acallam Na Senorach recently and the number of tales recounting very casual relations between the Tuatha Dé Danaan and the Fianna are astounding. But the book is thickly packed with material so concisely told as to make its contents practically unreadable.

It can be studied, but not really read as a book would normally be read. It is recommended only to lore collectors.

In this work St. Patrick actually marries a mortal prince to one of the Tuatha Dé Danaan without anyone showing great surprise.


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## Helcaraxë (Dec 1, 2003)

Tolkien does make some vague references to the Irish otherworld. In Bilbo's "Earendil was a mariner" song in Rivendell, there is a verse I would like to quote:


> The Silmaril she bound on him
> And crowned him with the living light
> And dauntless then with burning brow
> He turned his prow; and in the night
> From *Otherworld* beyond the Sea...



--MB


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## Lhunithiliel (Dec 20, 2003)

It is so shocking to learn that the ancient Irish tales told about a world parallel to ours!!! 
How comes that the ancient had that cosmogonical understanding, taking into consideration that the nowadays science is still reluctant to admit the existance of such worlds and only the science fiction writers take the liberty to "show" them!?
What then do these ancient tales say about the creation of the universe(s)?

Another point I would like to address here.

Is is known where the myth about the making of the Sun and the Moon, as presented by Tolkien, originated from? Is there a similar myth of the ancient Celts/Finns etc. or perhaps from some other mythology..... or is it Tolkien's own fantasy?


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## Helcaraxë (Dec 21, 2003)

Well, many myths personify the Sun and Moon. For example, Hyperion, one version of the Greek Sun God, rode in his chariot across the skies. This is how the Greeks thought of the Sun, but wheather it at all influenced Tolkien is ambiguous. 

As for the creation of the World in Irish myth, ask jallan. He has great knowledge of such things.

However, I have never heard of any Celtic creation myth. Perhaps the Celts believed that the world was not created, it simply _was_. But again, ask jallan.

MB


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## Starflower (Dec 22, 2003)

well according to the earliest Finnish legends the world was created from an egg of a duck, the top becoming heaven and the bottom being earth.

here's a link to the epic itself, Kalevala , in english :

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/kveng/

and this Rune in it is where Tolkien based his story of Turin Turambar : 
http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/kveng/kvrune31.htm
and this one :
http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/kveng/kvrune35.htm


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## Helcaraxë (Dec 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jallan _
> * But certainly the Valar don't live in the Wraith World.
> 
> *



I disagree. 



> They [the Elves of Eldamar] do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and and the Unseen they have great power.



--Gandalf, "Many Meetings," Fellowship.

Because the elves dwell at leats partially in this "Unseen" world, it is safe to assume that the Valar have a similar power.

MB


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## Osric (Feb 15, 2004)

I'm generally wary of attempts to impose systematic relationships between different traditions. People like CG Jung and Joseph Campbell have written extensively on the way the same archetypes always suggest themselves, and spring up independently in the mythologies of different cultures, without one needing to be directly based on the other. 

The ruler of the gods of one pantheon can usually be equated with the ruler of another, because they conform to universal features of the human condition. Most pantheons have a mighty physical warrior god, and a more sensitive type who's the best healer etc. etc.
If anything, we ought easily to be able to add to Helcaraxë's list. And anyone interested enough to be reading this should do so! (even if that doesn't mean that Tulkas is a representation of Thor or Ares/Mars, or Manwe an Odin or a Zeus/Jupiter).

And yet, the one Vala that really struck me as being a clear borrowing was Vána, with her associations with flowers, fire and poetry -- far from an obvious 'sphere of influence'! But isn't that exactly what Brighid / St Bride was associated with?

I was about to say Maedhros manifested a hint of Nuada of the Silver Hand in the replacement of his lost hand with one wrought of metal, but I checked my sources first and that proved to be an invention of the roleplaying company, ICE. The inspiration was probably right, but it wasn't Tolkien who devised it.

I'd tend to avoid suggesting that Tolkien's 'pantheon' of Valar is calqued on the deities of Celtic mythology, but it would be valuable to identify any specific instances where there seems to be a Celtic inspiration that couldn't have come from anywhere else.

-- Os.


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## jallan (Feb 16, 2004)

Lhunithiel posted:


> It is so shocking to learn that the ancient Irish tales told about a world parallel to ours!!!
> How comes that the ancient had that cosmogonical understanding, taking into consideration that the nowadays science is still reluctant to admit the existance of such worlds and only the science fiction writers take the liberty to "show" them!?


Similar accounts of a more real word underlying our own appear in Hindu myths.

Such speculations may arise from speculation about the world of dreams and from ecstatic visions, both long ago known. The idea seems to be that there is a spiritual world normally invisible to most humans interpenetrating our own. Such ideas appear also in Hebrew writings. From 2 Kings 6:


> 15 When the servant of the man of God got up and went out early the next morning, an army with horses and chariots had surrounded the city. "Oh, my lord, what shall we do?" the servant asked.
> 16 "Don't be afraid," the prophet answered. "Those who are with us are more than those who are with them."
> 17 And Elisha prayed, "O LORD , open his eyes so he may see." Then the LORD opened the servant's eyes, and he looked and saw the hills full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.


Similarly in the _Iliad_ Diomedes is allowed by Athene for a short time to see the gods who are active on the plain before Troy and who take part in the battle. Diomedes wounds both Aphrodite and Ares which Zeus takes as a great joke.

In actual tales it is not clear to what extent the teller thinks of a full world parallel to our own and to what extent teller thinks of invisible halls of the supernatural which are enchanted to normally appear to human eyes as hills and mounds or empty lakes and of beings that are normally invisible to humans. There is no single metaphysics and what is more important to the teller is often the air of mystery. The use of the term _otherworld_ is so far as I know an invention of modern commentators on Celtic legend.

In any case this has almost no correspondence to scientific speculations about possible other universes with their own time and space or a branching time stream.

Our knowledge of the Irish pantheon comes from traditional tales that have passed through Christian hands. In these stories the old Irish gods and goddesses are rationalized as humans of long ago that had developed great powers of wizardry and magic and who still live in invisibly in a kind of underworld or parallel world, mostly in the old mounds that dot the Irish landscape and are called _sídhe_.

Unforunately whatever tales the ancient Irish may have told about the creation of the world have not survived in the later euhemeristic tellings.


> Is is known where the myth about the making of the Sun and the Moon, as presented by Tolkien, originated from? Is there a similar myth of the ancient Celts/Finns etc. or perhaps from some other mythology...


Nothing that is very close. Legends of Alexander the Great tell of the two trees of the Sun and Moon in the east, but these are oracular trees, not the origins of the Sun and Moon. The Finnish _Kalevala_ relates how the Sun and Moon were stolen and Ilmarin attempted to forge a new Sun and Moon which he hung each on a tree. But the forged Sun and Moon did not shine and it was necessary to find again the true Sun and Moon.

In the Mayan _Popul Vuh_ the Sun first rose many generations after the first men. But nothing is said specifically about how it was created.

Osric posted:


> And yet, the one Vala that really struck me as being a clear borrowing was Vána, with her associations with flowers, fire and poetry -- far from an obvious 'sphere of influence'! But isn't that exactly what Brighid / St Bride was associated with.


Vána is not associated with fire or poetry by Tolkien.

As the young goddess of beauty Vána somewhat resembles Greek Aphrodite, Roman Venus and Norse Freyja (at least as closely as can be expected in a pantheon where the power of sexuality is not openly represented). It may not be accidental the Freyja was also called _Vanadis_ ‘goddess of the Vanir’ in the Norse texts. The name _Vanir_ applied to fertility gods has no obvious etymology in Old Norse but it has been suggested that it is linked in some way to the equally inexplicable Latin name _Venus_.

Aphrodite/Venus is generally pictured as garlanded with flowers and accompanied by doves.

One might also recall young Korë of Greek myth who returns each year bringing the spring, also named Persephonë in her aspect as wife of Hades. The Romans had a goddess Flora who presided over flowers.


> I was about to say Maedhros manifested a hint of Nuada of the Silver Hand in the replacement of his lost hand with one wrought of metal, but I checked my sources first and that proved to be an invention of the roleplaying company, ICE. The inspiration was probably right, but it wasn't Tolkien who devised it.


And in Norse mytholgy the god Týr lost his hand to the Fenris wolf and it was never replaced by any substitute hand so far as we are told. A hint of this may appear in Tolkien’s story of Beren.


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## Arwen48 (Mar 7, 2004)

Are there any lovers of Wagner out there?
How about Wagner's Ring cycle? There are some striking similarities in the two masterpieces, deriving from norse mythology.
Wagner's ring makes people invisible, and it has a corrupting and destructive power which taints everyone who possesses it.
Wagner's hero has a magic sword 
Wagner's heroine is an immortal who sacrifices her immortality for the human she loves
Wagner's warrior heroes go to Valhalla; c/f Theoden and his son who 'have been brave in battle and will go to join their fathers' (more or less)

Tolkien drew from all the sources of myth and legend with which he was
familiar, I can't claim to know much about the different cultures involved but it seems clear that the northern mythologies have a great many symbols in common and it is these symbols rather than one source in particular which Tolkien adopted for his work.


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## Walter (Mar 7, 2004)

Tolkien never seemed quite happy, when his _The Lord of the Rings_ was compared with other, maybe similar tales. In a preface of a Swedish translation where the author Ake Ohlmark addressed the parallels to Wagner's "Ring des Nibelungen" he snapped: "Both rings were round, and there the resemblance ceases." (Letters #229).

There are of course a few parallels between Tolkien's and Wagner's epi, but IMO mainly because they both, Tolkien and Wagner, were drawing on the same sources of mythology, namely the Eddas and the Volsunga-saga (incl. all following tales dealing with the Niblungs). The ring in both cases resembles Andvari's ring (though to me the OneRing resembles Plato's "Ring of Gyges" and maybe Odin's ring draupnir as well).

Also Tolkien seemed to have an "intimate dislike" of certain authors (e.g. Wagner, Shakespeare, Spenser, etc.) because he thought they were taking a wrong approach to important issues in literature dealing with tales of historical and mythological origin. Regarding mythology this meant, that Tolkien felt that one had to dig as deep as possible into the sources and roots of such mythologies (which includes also examining the tales in the light of their historical background, etc) and not being content to draw upon superficial similarities.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Mar 7, 2004)

Helcaraxë said:


> I have been studying Celtic Myths for a time and I was struck by the strong connection between it and the LoTR...Comments?



In the book "The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien," the following passages are found:

From entry #26:

[Speaking of the names in The Silmarillion:] "...Needless to say they are not Celtic! Neither are the tales. I do know Celtic things (many in their original languages Irish and Welsh), and feel for them a certain distaste: largely for their fundamental unreason. They have bright color, but are like a broken stained glass window reassembled without design."

From #130:

"...while possessing (if I could achieve it) the fair elusive beauty that some call Celtic (though it is rarely found in genuine ancient Celtic things), it should be 'high', purged of the gross, and fit for the more adult mind of a land now long steeped in poetry."

That's just a short selection; hopefully it gives the gist of Tolkien's feelings about things Celtic.

Lotho


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## Barliman Butterbur (Mar 7, 2004)

Osric said:


> I'm generally wary of attempts to impose systematic relationships between different traditions. People like CG Jung and Joseph Campbell have written extensively on the way the same archetypes always suggest themselves, and spring up independently in the mythologies of different cultures, without one needing to be directly based on the other.
> 
> The ruler of the gods of one pantheon can usually be equated with the ruler of another, because they conform to universal features of the human condition.



You bring up a fascinating point, Osric! I have had some occasion to study the works of Jung, Campbell and A. Comfort, and your post reminds me of the notion of "biological hardwiring" as being the reason for the existence of similiarities in myths and the conclusions drawn from them. 

The similarities exist because all human brains are simply replications of the same basic model, no matter what race (race being no more than superficial difference in outer appearance). Hence we have the "archetypes" and mythological similarities that appear across all cultures and eras. And the universal features of the human condition, as you say, proceed from the fact that — except for outer appearance — all humans are the same inside, brain wiring included.

What say you, m'friend?

Lotho


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## jallan (Mar 21, 2004)

Lotho_Pimple said:


> The similarities exist because all human brains are simply replications of the same basic model, no matter what race (race being no more than superficial difference in outer appearance). Hence we have the "archetypes" and mythological similarities that appear across all cultures and eras. And the universal features of the human condition, as you say, proceed from the fact that — except for outer appearance — all humans are the same inside, brain wiring included.


Probably true in some cases and not true in others.

Folklorists have tried to establish which motifs are universal and which seem to have spread from a single source. It is difficult, especially since it is possible that certain modes of life trigger motifs that may not be triggered in other environments. There is also contamination from visiting story tellers including Christian missionaries who may also tell secular folk tales from their own culture.

Campbell’s focused folklore studies are well thought of by experts but his general theories have gained much less respect. Campbell does tend to chose texts that fit his theories and tends to force his reading into a text, somewhat like those studies which attempt to interpret any book as though it were Christain allegory. Since Campbell’s own religion tends towards Hindu mysticism the western reader isn’t so likely to be aware of what Campbell is doing as much as the reader would be if Campbell was reading in a Christian message.


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## Wolfshead (May 19, 2007)

Lantarion said:


> Anyway, sorry to break the conversation up a bit but the topic was *Celtic* (*is that pronounced with an 's' or a 'k', I can never remember*) myths specifically; so if anybody has more info pertaining to Celtic mythology and applicability thereof in Toklien's works, step right up!


With a 'k'. Can be quite confusing when you have the likes of Celtic (with an 's') football club all over the place.



Barliman Butterbur said:


> In the book "The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien," the following passages are found:
> 
> From entry #26:
> 
> ...


Barley, these excerpts are quite interesting. Can you tell me who the original letters were written to?


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## Kolbitar (Jun 30, 2009)

Hello,



Just some late night musings...


Depending on how one defines the word “Celt” one may certainly draw parallels between Arthur son of Uther of the Britons and Aragorn son of Arathorn, both of a broken line of High Kings, both of whom restore their royal lineage and establish legitimacy with the symbol of a famous sword, both who in doing so unite their people against a common enemy, both of whose names begin with the letter “Ar” and whose primary counselor is a mysterious wizard.


Parallels may also be seen between Gawain and Frodo. Frodo accepts the burden of a challenge amidst a celebration held by his uncle, not unlike what befalls Gawain (in Sir Gawain and the Green Knight), both are on a quest which will logically end in death, both recover and return home after one year, though left wounded with physical reminders of their mutual last-minute hubris. 


Bilbo should have dealt with the ring when he had it, but due, perhaps, to his arete, (and good writing) he persisted, and the problems associated with the ring were addressed by his nephew. Arthur should have dealt with the Green Knight's challenge, but let his nephew accept the challenge instead.


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## chrysophalax (Jul 1, 2009)

Ah, shoulda, coulda, woulda...but, to paraphrase Gandalf, "We all have our part to play, even though it might not be the part _others_ deem we should have. Who's to say?"

I like the Arthurian parallels though. Arthurian legend has always been a particular favourite of mine. I'm just glad Aragorn never had a Mordred!


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## jallan (Dec 6, 2009)

Kolbitar said:


> Depending on how one defines the word “Celt” one may certainly draw parallels between Arthur son of Uther of the Britons and Aragorn son of Arathorn, both of a broken line of High Kings, both of whom restore their royal lineage and establish legitimacy with the symbol of a famous sword, both who in doing so unite their people against a common enemy, both of whose names begin with the letter “Ar” and whose primary counselor is a mysterious wizard.



There is no “broken line of kings” in many medieval versions of the Arthurian tales. Arthur is just brought up at King Uther’s court as his heir.

Only in Robert de Boron’s _Story of Merlin_ and derived accounts is Arthur brought up in secret and the story of the sword in the stone introduced. And only in late accounts derived in part from the _Story of Merlin_ is Merlin Arthur’s counsellor. In some other accounts Merlin is mostly evil.

While certainly the parallels you mention are there in the background, they remain only parallels.



> Parallels may also be seen between Gawain and Frodo. Frodo accepts the burden of a challenge amidst a celebration held by his uncle, not unlike what befalls Gawain (in Sir Gawain and the Green Knight), both are on a quest which will logically end in death, both recover and return home after one year, though left wounded with physical reminders of their mutual last-minute hubris.



Frodo does not know much about the ring until long after his uncle Bilbo has departed. He thinks of it only as a trinket that makes one invisible.



> Bilbo should have dealt with the ring when he had it, but due, perhaps, to his arete, (and good writing) he persisted, and the problems associated with the ring were addressed by his nephew.



But even Gandalf did not suspect that Bilbo’s ring was the One Ring, until the very night that Bilbo did give it up.



> Arthur should have dealt with the Green Knight's challenge, but let his nephew accept the challenge instead.



Normally, in any monarchy, it is not for the king to undertake individual tasks which would endanger him. Few expected King Georgge or Winston Churchill to join the troops at Dunkirk. In early medieval monarchy, of course, a king is often also a battle leader, but this means leading an army, not venturing into danger alone.

Arthur should have properly dealt with the Green Knight’s challenge by refusing it, even though the reputation of his court might suffer. Sometimes he is shown to be wary of such challenges. Here Arthur is probably imagined to have had a little more to drink than he ought to have drunk. So he shows he is willing to accept the challenge. Gawain, seeing this, as a loyal knight of the king, quite rightly forestalls his uncle.

As another example, Arthur does not respond to Meleagant’s challenge in Chrétien de Troyes’ _Lancelot_, until Kay tricks Arthur into bestowing an unnamed boon on him, which turns out to be allowing Kay to fight with Meleagant with Guenevere as the prize. In the _Prose Lancelot_ Arthur even forbids his knights to aid the wounded knight as this involves vowing oneself to what Arthur sees as an unreasonable vow.


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## Mithrandir-Olor (Aug 17, 2013)

In the actual Welsh tradition Merlin has nothing to do with Arthur and Arthur is simply Uther's son raised by Uther, no contrived reason for him to be raised as a commoner.


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## Eledhwen (Aug 19, 2013)

elffriend said:


> I did not mean to imply that Tolkiens writings were anything but Great masterpieces, which were meant as a mythology for England. What his influences were makes no difference, as most mythologies, whether Norse, Irish, or Celtic, have many parallels, and are very similiar, the names and places maybe different, but the stories are all about great heroes and villians, good and evil, strength and power, and the ability to do what is deemed to be the right thing.


England's mythologies were lost, bastardised or deliberately eradicated by a Roman administration fearful of Druid power and influence; and later by Christian missionaries who saw them as a threat. This was made easier by the recording of British history in songs and storytelling rather than hard copy. But much of what survived in the unconquered or less-conquered lands to the north and west applies to England too, as the myths and legends carried and told by the bards and storytellers will have been currency throughout the British Isles. In the tales of King Arthur and his knights of the round table, we see the personalities of British mythological beings become knights. In the saints of Ireland we see the old gods, given Christian garb. Then add the Saxons. They brought their gods with them too (a long barrow near the white horse hill figure at Uffington, Oxfordshire, is known as Wayland's Smithy; the forge of the Saxon god Weland). Now, the two seem completely separate; British mythology is now Celtic to the North and West, and we in England are stuck with Roger Lancelyn Green's Arthur and his round table, and the Victorian elevation of Robin Hood and his merrie men to the nobility, both now Hollywooded to death. So Tolkien, who knew all the influences and how they interwove, re-wove the original British myths into the warp and weft of his own imaginings, to create a new mythology for England; one so successful that it has captured hearts and minds throughout the world.


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## Eledhwen (Dec 9, 2013)

*BBC Radio 4 broadcast on Norse/Anglo Saxon Sagas*

This broadcast begins (first 10 minutes) discussing the Anglo Saxon influences on Tolkien's writings: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03kpkyx


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## jallan (Dec 28, 2013)

Eledhwen said:


> England's mythologies were lost, bastardised or deliberately eradicated by a Roman administration fearful of Druid power and influence; and later by Christian missionaries who saw them as a threat.



You are very confused between “British” and “English”. The name “England” was only applied to southern Britain long after the Roman era came to an end. Druidism, as far as is known, was long dead in the territory of England when St. Augustine brought Christianity to England. The parts of the island that were still British at that time (Wales, Cornwall, Cumberland) had at that time long been firmly Christian.



> In the tales of King Arthur and his knights of the round table, we see the personalities of British mythological beings become knights. In the saints of Ireland we see the old gods, given Christian garb. Then add the Saxons. They brought their gods with them too (a long barrow near the white horse hill figure at Uffington, Oxfordshire, is known as Wayland's Smithy; the forge of the Saxon god Weland).



This is dubious. Some influence on Arthurian tales appears to come from older pagan traditions. Similarly traditional Germanic tales were still told by the English. But much of this folklore was neither specifically pagan nor Christian. They were simply old stores that were repeated and adapted (and often garbled). 



> Now, the two seem completely separate; British mythology is now Celtic to the North and West, and we in England are stuck with Roger Lancelyn Green's Arthur and his round table, and the Victorian elevation of Robin Hood and his merrie men to the nobility, both now Hollywooded to death.



If you read and believe that Roger Lancelyn Green’s Arthurian retellings are genuine Arthurian traditions, then you have only stuck yourself with this false unbelief. The elevation of Robin Hood to the nobility first occurred, so far as is known, in the plays of the Elizabethan playwright Anthony Munday, long before Victorian times. What the garblings of Hollywood have to do with any of this I do not see, except that they are often equally inventions.



> So Tolkien, who knew all the influences and how they interwove, re-wove the original British myths into the warp and weft of his own imaginings, to create a new mythology for England; one so successful that it has captured hearts and minds throughout the world.



Tolkien’s story of the Ring is not related to British or English myths in particular, though one may find some influences. Tolkien never at any time claimed that his _Lord of the Rings_ was intended to be taken as a genuine mythology of England. In one letter Tolkien refers to the earliest version of what became _The Silmarillion_ as related to his ideas of the time about what Old English mythology might have been like in some ways. Some Tolkien fans push this statement to the nonsensical level I see here.

Tolkien based the Shire on the Victorian Sarehole of his boyhood, which is not related in any way to any vanished English mythology. Tolkien’s Rohirrim speak Mercian Saxon and have a culture similar to the Danes in _Beowulf_, but resemble more the historical Germanic allies of late Rome. Tolkien’s work was successful because of its literary merits, not because of any resemblance of long-lost British or English mythology.


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