# Just how weak was Morgoth at the event between him and ungoliant?



## Might_of_arnor (Sep 24, 2017)

so ungoliant devours the two trees (which makes her grow to an immense size, Unknown but I have speculations that she is a bit smaller than ancalagon the black) and demands the three simarils, morgoth refuses and gets pinned and strucked by ungoliant, which sends morgoth into a great cry that awakens the balrogs. Ungoliant flees from the scene and the end.

Now what I want to know is how weak was morgoth at the time? I have heard here and there that "sauron at the second age was stronger than morgoth at the end of the first age". Now my memory is very bland right now, so I can't remember the events prior to this confrontation. Was morgoth that weak that he was frightened and even struck by a maiar (possibly a great spirit of unknown origins) or were the light of the two trees so immense in power that they allowed ungoliant to over power the GREATEST of the VALAR (the second most powerful being in all of the legendarium, just under Erü, although tulkas and Manwe bear to mind).


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## Azrubêl (Sep 26, 2017)

Great post.

I would agree that Shelob swelled to a size larger than Ancalagon the Black. 

I think it's always the case in Tolkien's writing (or his final version, ie The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales) that a lower tier of being couldn't kill a higher tier. By this, I mean, one of the Children of Ilúvatar could not kill a Maia, a Maia could not kill a Vala, and a Vala could not kill Ilúvatar. With strange created beasts or characters that don't fall into those categories (like Shelob?), and also within a tier if Maia fights Maia or Vala fights Vala, it appears to be the case that one Ëala can sometimes overcome another. For example, Gandalf and the Balrog of Moria killed each other, but Gandalf returned. The Valar banish Morgoth to the Void. I'm trying to think of more examples.


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## Ingolmin (Sep 27, 2017)

Might_of_arnor said:


> ]
> Now what I want to know is how weak was morgoth at the time? I have heard here and there that "sauron at the second age was stronger than morgoth at the end of the first age". Now my memory is very bland right now, so I can't remember the events prior to this confrontation. Was morgoth that weak that he was frightened and even struck by a maiar (possibly a great spirit of unknown origins) or were the light of the two trees so immense in power that they allowed ungoliant to over power the GREATEST of the VALAR (the second most powerful being in all of the legendarium, just under Erü, although tulkas and Manwe bear to mind).


I go with Azrubel that the lesser beings can't defeat the higher ones.
Ungoliant wasn't a Valar, that's sure. She was one of the nameless beings, and so its unknown if she was a Maia or a lesser being.
But yet she devoured the two trees, and Melkor feared her. Melkor was obviously very much powerful than Ungoliant but yet he may have feared that such a being could harm him one who could even devour the finest creations of his most bitter enemies, he also would have thought if the Silmarils are devoured, all his struggle would be pointless. So upon weighing all the outcomes, since Melkor was a great leader and wise as well, he emitted a cry so that his Balrogs would bind her and he would be saved from even the smallest trouble.

The Valar also have great powers but sometimes the action they do, do not bind them with their power, Melian cried in Lorien when Thingol died and Beleriand remained no longer safe. She was in love, a feeling and Valar are above it, still she behaved like a Child of Illuvitar. That does not mean that Melian was less powerful.

No, when we talk of power, all were less powerful than Eru and all were governed by his decisions, that is enough to fear for Melkor who clearly knew that whatever he does, he still is under the energy domain of Eru alone and anything may happen, nobody can foresee everything even Manwe Sulimo!


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## Azrubêl (Sep 27, 2017)

Ingolmin said:


> But yet she devoured the two trees, and Melkor feared her. Melkor was obviously very much powerful than Ungoliant but yet he may have feared that such a being could harm him one who could even devour the finest creations of his most bitter enemies, he also would have thought if the Silmarils are devoured, all his struggle would be pointless. So upon weighing all the outcomes, since Melkor was a great leader and wise as well, he emitted a cry so that his Balrogs would bind her and he would be saved from even the smallest trouble.



This brings to mind a discussion I heard in the Tolkien Professor podcast, where they contrast Ungoliant as a manifestation of evil against Melkor. Ungoliant is more of a primordial, non-rational, monster that lives to consume, while Melkor is more rational, crafty, and interested in a more complex outcome than just consuming enemies. In this way, Ungoliant appears to be in a unique position to undermine Melkor's conquest in a way that the forces of good are not. Melkor cannot control Ungoliant, and she is an extremely strong force in Arda, so I think this alone scares him, beyond whatever physical harm Ungoliant could do to Melkor if she turned on him.


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## CirdanLinweilin (Sep 27, 2017)

Azrubêl said:


> This brings to mind a discussion I heard in the Tolkien Professor podcast, where they contrast Shelob as a manifestation of evil against Melkor. Shelob is more of a primordial, non-rational, monster that lives to consume, while Melkor is more rational, crafty, and interested in a more complex outcome than just consuming enemies. In this way, Shelob appears to be in a unique position to undermine Melkor's conquest in a way that the forces of good are not. Melkor cannot control Shelob, and she is an extremely strong force in Arda, so I think this alone scares him, beyond whatever physical harm Shelob could do to Melkor if she turned on him.



I think you're getting Ungoliant confused with Shelob, Shelob is a child of Ungoliant, and is defeated by Sam in _The Lord of the Rings_. Other than that, you're on point!

CL


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## Azrubêl (Sep 27, 2017)

CirdanLinweilin said:


> I think you're getting Ungoliant confused with Shelob, Shelob is a child of Ungoliant, and is defeated by Sam in _The Lord of the Rings_. Other than that, you're on point!
> 
> CL


Yep, gonna edit the right name in


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## Sartr (Oct 4, 2017)

_By this, I mean, one of the Children of Ilúvatar could not kill a Maia, a Maia could not kill a Vala,_​
Not sure if I agree with this. Fingolfin challenged Morgoth to combat, which I imagine he would not have done if there was absolutely no chance of winning. From the Silm: "_and it is said that he took not the challenge willingly; for alone of the Valar he knew fear" _Morgoth had nothing to be afraid of if an Elf couldn't harm him. Since he walked with a permanent limp from his wounds after that battle, I have to assume he could have been killed if the opportunity presented itself.


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## Azrubêl (Oct 6, 2017)

Sartr said:


> _By this, I mean, one of the Children of Ilúvatar could not kill a Maia, a Maia could not kill a Vala,_​
> Not sure if I agree with this. Fingolfin challenged Morgoth to combat, which I imagine he would not have done if there was absolutely no chance of winning. From the Silm: "_and it is said that he took not the challenge willingly; for alone of the Valar he knew fear" _Morgoth had nothing to be afraid of if an Elf couldn't harm him. Since he walked with a permanent limp from his wounds after that battle, I have to assume he could have been killed if the opportunity presented itself.



Morgoth did not go willingly into combat against the Elven king. Fingolfin the Mighty challenged him at his own doorstep, and Morgoth would have appeared cowardly to his captains if he refused. An elf most certainly cannot kill a Vala, but the significance of Fingolfin's challenge was that it showed Morgoth is not un-touchable, and when he scarred him with the limp, Fingolfin threw shame and a perpetual reminder of the Noldor's hatred on the Evil One. Furthermore, Fingolfin kindled hope within the hearts of all the Eldar by his bravery.


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