# Saruman's Ring



## ZehnWaters (Oct 31, 2022)

So...Saruman made a ring, yes? Of what calibre was it, would you say? If Sauron got his ring back, would Saruman become enslaved as others with rings would (though he was a Maia as we well)?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 31, 2022)

As far as is known, Sauron had no involvement with the making of Saruman's ring.

Also as far as is known, his ring had no powers. Although as usual around here, there's been quite bit of back-and-forth on the subject. 😄


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Oct 31, 2022)

From what I've seen, Saruman's Ring was his own creation, trying to forge a Ring of Power. It did not seem to be successful, therefore if there any powers, they are unknown.


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 31, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> As far as is known, Sauron had no involvement with the making of Saruman's ring.
> 
> Also as far as is known, his ring had no powers. Although as usual around here, there's been quite bit of back-and-forth on the subject. 😄





Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> From what I've seen, Saruman's Ring was his own creation, trying to forge a Ring of Power. It did not seem to be successful, therefore if there any powers, they are unknown.


Hm. Regardless, then, would Sauron have been able to enslave Saruman if it WERE a ring? Or if Saruman had obtained another ring? Or was Saruman of too great of stature to enslave as the 9 were?


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Oct 31, 2022)

I would imagine that if it _had _been a Ring of Power enslaved by the One Ring, yes. It could have been controlled, and therefore so could Saruman. As it was, Saruman fell to darkness regardless, proving that his mind and spirit were weaker.


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 31, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> I would imagine that if it _had _been a Ring of Power enslaved by the One Ring, yes.


Well, I'd imagine any ring forged in the manner of the others it would still fall under the thralldom of Sauron. The 3 did. I view it a bit like computer code: Sauron built in a secret backdoor, so anyone who uses the code can get "hacked".


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## Erestor Arcamen (Oct 31, 2022)

Just to share some more threads on this, here's a few that probably have some answers in them:









Saruman's Ring!


I have posted this thread before, but it did not get the attention is deserved, so I am posting it again hoping to get the answers I want. Don't be afraid to post, an opinion is neither right nor wrong, so, post away! Now, we know that Saruman had quite an extensive knowledge on the Lore of the...




www.thetolkienforum.com













Saruman's Ring........


saurumons ring when gandalf goes to isengard first tolkien points out that saurumon is wearing a ring.I know that one of saurumons names is "maker of rings" but i was wondering if there is a story behind the ring. I have a theory that the ring could have been given as a gift from sauron and...




www.thetolkienforum.com













The answer to Saruman's Ring


I have posted this thread before, but it did not get the attention is deserved, so I am posting it again hoping to get the answers I want. Don't be afraid to post, an opinion is neither right nor wrong, so, post away! Now, we know that Saruman had quite an extensive knowledge on the Lore of the...




www.thetolkienforum.com













MY HARD QUESTION #2: Saruman's Ring!


:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: We know that Saruman had quite an extensive knowledge on the Lore of the Rings. Gandalf said in the Council of Elrond that: "He ever goes deeper into the Lore of the Rings, finding the lost secrets of their making." Gandalf says later in the...




www.thetolkienforum.com


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 31, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> Just to share some more threads on this, here's a few that probably have some answers in them:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I apologize, they didn't come up when I tried the title.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Oct 31, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> I apologize, they didn't come up when I tried the title.


Oh no, I wasn't posting it to say "sheesh don't ask again" and I apologize if it came off as that way. I just wanted to share as some of these I'm sure have some good information and discussions about this topic.


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## Rōmānus (Oct 31, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> So...Saruman made a ring, yes? Of what calibre was it, would you say? If Sauron got his ring back, would Saruman become enslaved as others with rings would (though he was a Maia as we well)?


It was of low caliber and he would not be enslaved to Sauron’s One through it because he did not know the secrets of their making. Saruman had some ideas that were right, but he could only go so far which is why his ring was probably similar to the rings the smiths at Eregion made during their initial experimenting stage. Sauron clearly designed the One based on a common feature of the others (which Saruman is likely unaware of and had not incorporated into his ring) so that it could work through them. On the other hand the One is meant to dominate and he could likely influence Saruman through it without any ring connection like the Rings of Power.


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## ZehnWaters (Nov 1, 2022)

Rōmānus said:


> It was of low caliber and he would not be enslaved to Sauron’s One through it because he did not know the secrets of their making. Saruman had some ideas that were right, but he could only go so far which is why his ring was probably similar to the rings the smiths at Eregion made during their initial experimenting stage. Sauron clearly designed the One based on a common feature of the others (which Saruman is likely unaware of and had not incorporated into his ring) so that it could work through them. On the other hand the One is meant to dominate and he could likely influence Saruman through it without any ring connection like the Rings of Power.


Hm. Do you think Saruman would be enslaveable were he wearing a true Ring of Power?


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## Ent (Nov 1, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Saruman fell to darkness regardless


Indeed, Saruman needed no ring to become enslaved. His own greed and lust for power turned him to darkness on his own, and Sauron through the Palantir had already turned Saruman into his tool - though Saruman was of no use to Sauron at all once defeated.



ZehnWaters said:


> Do you think Saruman would be enslaveable were he wearing a true Ring of Power?


Yes, because it is said if Sauron regained the One Ring, all would fall under his dominion. 

This is said even of the 3 rings untouched by Sauron: 

"But all that has been wrought by those who wield the Three will turn to their undoing, and their minds and hearts will become revealed to Sauron, if he regains the One. It would be better if the Three had never been.

This speaks of Sauron's control of them just as with Saruman through the Palantir. Their power would be turned to evil.

Then we have this uncanny statement about what would happen to the Three once the One is destroyed:

"We know not for certain,’ answered Elrond sadly. ‘Some hope that the Three Rings, which Sauron has never touched, would then become free, and their rulers might heal the hurts of the world that he has wrought. But maybe when the One has gone, the Three will fail, and many fair things will fade and be forgotten. That is my belief.’"

In other words, when he made the One Ring Sauron in some respects "bound" even the Three Rings so they could not be used as they should...though never touched by him. What he poured into the One Ring was so powerful in its ability to 'control all others' in some way, that once destroyed all were most likely affected. 

But just as it was to Elrond and the others, (i.e. speculation and so opinion), so I think it must remain for us. Unless there is writing elsewhere that is of greater import on the matter than what is said in LoTR.


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## ZehnWaters (Nov 1, 2022)

The Ent said:


> Yes, because it is said if Sauron regained the One Ring, all would fall under his dominion.


Hm. Do you think his human form contributed to this? Or would ANY Maia of lesser stature (as most were, compared to Sauron) fall under his sway should they wear a ring?


The Ent said:


> But just as it was to Elrond and the others, (i.e. speculation and so opinion), so I think it must remain for us. Unless there is writing elsewhere that is of greater import on the matter than what is said in LoTR.


I'll try checking The Nature of Middle-Earth when I get home. I usually only pay attention to the First Age.


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## Ent (Nov 1, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> Or would ANY Maia of lesser stature


I'll check a couple more written spots that come to mind. My immediate thought is 'any maia'. Because any maia who would claim the ring, and try to turn it to their own uses, even if they were sufficiently strong to wrest it away from Sauron, would ultimately be corrupted by the ring as well.

But I think the language of the ring is clear that if Sauron possessed it again all would fall under his dominion in middle-earth. That is even with the Valar and their chosen maiar 'helpers' trying their best to 'make middle-earth to be according to the Song.' 

It SEEMS only the intervention of the Valar themselves could prevent that... and there's nowhere we read or see that the Valar intended to do so. 

Remember Gandalf said he was a servant of the light but "dark is stronger still". 
That's all the arrows I have in my quiver for the topic at this time... i'll see what else I can find to pull to the surface later.


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## d4rk3lf (Nov 1, 2022)

My thoughts: 
I think Saruman ring did have some power, otherwise, it would be totally pointless for him to wear it, and also, Gandalf didn't mentioned he wore ring for no reason. Let's not forget that Saruman is Aule pupil. Crafting stuff is in his nature. 
Is that ring as strong and powerful as the other magic rings? I don't think so. 
Could Saruman be enslaved if Sauron, got the ring? 
Not at all... Saruman couldn't be enslaved even if he wore one of the rings of power (unless willingly), because Sauron couldn't even enslave elves, let alone a maia.


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## ZehnWaters (Nov 1, 2022)

The Ent said:


> I'll check a couple more written spots that come to mind. My immediate thought is 'any maia'. Because any maia who would claim the ring, and try to turn it to their own uses, even if they were sufficiently strong to wrest it away from Sauron, would ultimately be corrupted by the ring as well.
> 
> But I think the language of the ring is clear that if Sauron possessed it again all would fall under his dominion in middle-earth. That is even with the Valar and their chosen maiar 'helpers' trying their best to 'make middle-earth to be according to the Song.'
> 
> ...


Thank you. It's interesting that Sauron never tried to enslave the Balrog with a ring. Perhaps he feared their fire would melt one. Or simply felt it was easy to manipulate the situation around it? I suppose the Balrog of Moria only awoke AFTER Sauron was recovering from his second death and Sauron was simply too busy with other things to care.



d4rk3lf said:


> Not at all... Saruman couldn't be enslaved even if he wore one of the rings of power (unless willingly), because Sauron couldn't even enslave elves, let alone a maia.


It's stated they could be enslaved if Sauron regained the One Ring. As long as he didn't have it, they were free.


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## Ent (Nov 1, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> Balrog of Moria


Yes, this is a very intriguing subject. The Balrogs were all corrupted Maiar, by Melkor's work... why Sauron didn't pursue the service of the Moria Balrog we just don't know. And why the Balrog didn't know of the rise of Sauron and seek him out we also don't know. 

But if it had gone that way, the whole Moria scene would have to be excised from the text, and then where would we be?? 😁


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## ZehnWaters (Nov 1, 2022)

The Ent said:


> Yes, this is a very intriguing subject. The Balrogs were all corrupted Maiar, by Melkor's work... why Sauron didn't pursue the service of the Moria Balrog we just don't know. And why the Balrog didn't know of the rise of Sauron and seek him out we also don't know.
> 
> But if it had gone that way, the whole Moria scene would have to be excised from the text, and then where would we be?? 😁


We'd still have Gandalf the Grey going up against Saruman after the Battle of the Hornburg. Not sure how that'd have turned out. Saruman was still wily and powerful.


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## Ent (Nov 1, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> We'd still have Gandalf the Grey going up against Saruman after the Battle of the Hornburg


Indeed. But who knows, we may not be arguing over whether Balrogs have wings..!!! 
(Sorry... no more thread derailing from me.)


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## d4rk3lf (Nov 1, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> It's stated they could be enslaved if Sauron regained the One Ring. As long as he didn't have it, they were free.


I always understood that if Sauron got the ring (from Frodo) he could immediately read all their thoughts (of Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel), but nothing more then that... they would remove then rings from fingers... but Sauron victory here would be that he would learn all secrets (exact location and defense weakness of Rivendell, and Lothlorien, for example). 

I remember reading in Unfished Tales that Tolkien mentioned that Sauron underestimated elves, and once he wore a ring, they immediately removed theirs (in anger and fear), because they realized he wanted to control them. Elves were too big for Sauron bite. 
so, following that logic, I imagine that maia would be even harder to enslave in that way.


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## ZehnWaters (Nov 1, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> I always understood that if Sauron got the ring (from Frodo) he could immediately read all their thoughts (of Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel), but nothing more then that... they would remove then rings from fingers... but Sauron victory here would be that he would learn all secrets (exact location and defense weakness of Rivendell, and Lothlorien, for example).


IF they swiftly removed them, yes. Only when the rings are in use could Sauron access them (or their wearers).


d4rk3lf said:


> I remember reading in Unfished Tales that Tolkien mentioned that Sauron underestimated elves, and once he wore a ring, they immediately removed theirs (in anger and fear), because they realized he wanted to control them. Elves were too big for Sauron bite.
> so, following that logic, I imagine that maia would be even harder to enslave in that way.


In that regard, yes (though, ostensibly, elves have incredible manual dexterity and speed when they choose to).


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Nov 1, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> I always understood that if Sauron got the ring (from Frodo) he could immediately read all their thoughts (of Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel), but nothing more then that..


The text of "Of the Rings of Power" has


> And while he wore the One Ring he could perceive all the things that were done by means of the lesser rings, and he could see *and govern *the very thoughts of those that wore them.


So it would be a much more dangerous situation than simply "reading their minds".

Whether this would also be the case with a Maia is of course another question. The text itself is speaking only of the effect on the Elves.


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## d4rk3lf (Nov 1, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> So it would be a much more dangerous situation than simply "reading their minds".


Yeah.. sure.. Ok.. I agree. 
He could govern their minds, when they wore rings. 

But then again, when Sauron tried that for the first time, elves immediately removed their rings, because they figured out what he wanted. 
So, I don't see a reason why Gandalf,, Galadriel and Elrond wouldn't do the same, if Sauron acquired the one ring again?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Nov 1, 2022)

I'm sure Galadriel and Elrond would have to; the question remains whether a Maia could resist.


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## d4rk3lf (Nov 1, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I'm sure Galadriel and Elrond would have to; the question remains whether a Maia could resist.


I believe so. 
Indeed, Gandalf mentioned how he was tempted to draw Sauron attention to other (nicer stuff), but through Palantir, not the ring. 

Lol, imagine Sauron get the ring, Elrond and Galadriel immediately remove theirs, and then Sauron says to Gandalf: 
"Do you think I have a chance with Galadriel"?


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## ZehnWaters (Nov 1, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> I believe so.
> Indeed, Gandalf mentioned how he was tempted to draw Sauron attention to other (nicer stuff), but through Palantir, not the ring.


That wasn't Gandalf's intention with the Palantír. Gandalf wanted to look on those things for himself.


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## d4rk3lf (Nov 1, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> That wasn't Gandalf's intention with the Palantír. Gandalf wanted to look on those things for himself.


Quote:
"Even now my heart desires to test my will upon it, to see* if I could not wrench it from him and turn it where I would* – to look across the wide seas of water and of time to Tirion the Fair, and perceive the unimaginable hand and mind of Fe¨anor at their work, while both the White Tree and the Golden were in flower!"

I might be wrong, but I always understood this, as he would like to turn Sauron mind to the past, and on beauty of things in the past... make him feel.. nostalgia perhaps? Even if that was just another Gandalf diversion to draw Sauron eye away from Frodo.


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## ZehnWaters (Nov 1, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> Quote:
> "Even now my heart desires to test my will upon it, to see* if I could not wrench it from him and turn it where I would* – to look across the wide seas of water and of time to Tirion the Fair, and perceive the unimaginable hand and mind of Fe¨anor at their work, while both the White Tree and the Golden were in flower!"
> 
> I might be wrong, but I always understood this, as he would like to turn Sauron mind to the past, and on beauty of things in the past... make him feel.. nostalgia perhaps? Even if that was just another Gandalf diversion to draw Sauron eye away from Frodo.


He was talking about what he would look at, not that he would take Sauron with him.


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## Rōmānus (Nov 1, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> My thoughts:
> I think Saruman ring did have some power, otherwise, it would be totally pointless for him to wear it, and also, Gandalf didn't mentioned he wore ring for no reason. Let's not forget that Saruman is Aule pupil. Crafting stuff is in his nature.
> Is that ring as strong and powerful as the other magic rings? I don't think so.
> Could Saruman be enslaved if Sauron, got the ring?
> Not at all... Saruman couldn't be enslaved even if he wore one of the rings of power (unless willingly), because Sauron couldn't even enslave elves, let alone a maia.


Sauron could definitely enslave the Elves with the One if they were wearing the Rings of Power. That is why they did not wear them as long as they knew he possessed the One. Even when they did wear the Rings of Power (in the midst of the 2nd Age) and they noticed Sauron had betrayed them (remember when he put on the One he had been reciting “One Ring to rule them all”) they immediately removed them. Dwarves alone were immune to this means of domination (Appendix A: Durin’s Folk).


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## ZehnWaters (Nov 1, 2022)

Rōmānus said:


> Dwarves alone were immune to this means of domination (Appendix A: Durin’s Folk).


Though they could be corrupted into being greedy.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Nov 1, 2022)

That is true, Zehn. Their greed was the cause of many of their falls.


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