# Destruction of the Witch-King



## Anárion (Feb 8, 2004)

In the Battle of the Plains of Pelennor, Éowyn, with the help of Merry, destroys the Witch-King. And in Unfinished Tales (I think) Earnil is all mad because he was put to shame by the Witch-King and Cirdan or some other Elf like that, says something about that no man would be able to kill the WK.

But, since the WK is really just a wraith, or a ghost so to speak, he would not be able to die would he? Éowyn's sword should have passed right through him, and Merry's also. In fact, if he was just a wraith, or ghost, or whatever, how would he even wield his mace, and hold the reigns of the fell beast he was riding?


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## Gothmog (Feb 8, 2004)

The Witch-king and the other eight Nazgul were not Ghosts each had indeed a physical body and were after a fashion Alive, kept from dying by the powers the rings they were enslaved by and the One Ring. They were called Wraiths because they could not be seen by most peoples in Middle-earth.

As for the Swords of Eowyn and Merry. First I doubt that Eowyn would have been able to harm the Witch-king un-aided. It was Merry's blow that allowed Eowyn's sword to kill him.


> So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dúnedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. *No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will*.


So it was the Sword of the North Kingdom that weakened the Witch-king and made it possible for another sword to strike him down.


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## Anárion (Feb 8, 2004)

Gothmog said:


> . They were called Wraiths because they could not be seen by most peoples in Middle-earth.



Then how could Éowyn see to strike him then? She was no one special, just a silly shield maidian. Same with Merry, he was just a regular hobbit and both he and Éowyn would have probably fallen under the "most people" section. Although Éowyn was queenly, she was not a queen.


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## Gothmog (Feb 8, 2004)

Very simple. The Witch-king was not visible but his armour and clothing were.



> 'Éowyn! Éowyn!' cried Merry. Then tottering, struggling up, with her last strength she drove her sword between *crown and mantle*, as the great shoulders bowed before her. The sword broke sparkling into many shards. The crown rolled away with a clang. Éowyn fell forward upon her fallen foe. But lo! the mantle and hauberk were empty. Shapeless they lay now on the ground, torn and tumbled;


The Nazgul were invisible but wore clothing to allow them to have dealings with others in Middle-earth such as their own followers or their enimies when needed. Eowyn did not See the Witch-king but rather could see where his head was because of the mantle on his shoulders and the Crown above. She struck between these two and thereby hit what was there. This happened to be the Witch-king's head or neck.


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## mr underhill (Feb 8, 2004)

Merry made it so that the witch king was no longer invincible and undoing some kind of spell making it possible for Eowyn to kill him .


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## Fechin (Feb 11, 2004)

I just wish that the people who did not read the books knew that it was the blade that was the WKs undoing and not Eowyn because she was a woman. But in the movie they really could not go into detail about the daggers snice there was no Tom B or anything. I always knew this about the blade and all of that in this post but I just never saw it in a thread and could read it all in one place there just always just a bit here and there. Good job Gothmog!


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## Anárion (Feb 11, 2004)

But then, in centuries before, why could not Eärnil defeat the Witch King when they were devastating Angmar? With the Elves on his side, and Arnor had just been thrown down, there were still bound to be many swords of the Númenóreans and of the Dúnedain. Im sure he would have had a great sword like Andruil (maybe not that good, but it would be better then that silly dagger that Merry had.)


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## Fechin (Feb 11, 2004)

Well that silly dagger Merry had was the only blade able to harm the WK. The blade he had was made for one purpose to kill the Witch King of Agmar. Or at least make the WK mortal or able to be harmed so Eowyn could deal the blow to finish him off.


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## Arvedui (Feb 11, 2004)

Anárion said:


> But then, in centuries before, why could not Eärnil defeat the Witch King when they were devastating Angmar? With the Elves on his side, and Arnor had just been thrown down, there were still bound to be many swords of the Númenóreans and of the Dúnedain. Im sure he would have had a great sword like Andruil (maybe not that good, but it would be better then that silly dagger that Merry had.)


Unfortunately for Eärnil, his horse got scared, and he never got the opportunity to try out your theory. So it has nothing to do with the armament.


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## BlackCaptain (Feb 11, 2004)

He snuk, she cheated, I was disgraced. That simple 

Anyways Rhi, I thought we've established this...


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## Rhiannon (Feb 11, 2004)

BlackCaptain said:


> He snuk, she cheated, I was disgraced. That simple
> 
> Anyways Rhi, I thought we've established this...


_I_ didn't get my head cut off. Where did the cheating happen again? 

Honestly, you boys are just so delusional. Why are men around of powerful women? You burned Joan of Arc, killed Bodicea, and slandered Catherine the Great--what's a girl to do?


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## Bucky (Feb 11, 2004)

_Earnil is all mad because he was put to shame by the Witch-King and Cirdan or some other Elf like that, says something about that no man would be able to kill the WK._


OK, it's in Appendix A, the section on Gondor.....

It's Glorfindel.....

What he says, which was & is misconscrued by PJ, The Witch-king & many people on this site, is NOT that "no man can harm or kill the Witch-king" but, "Not by the hand of man will he fall".

It's simply a prophesy, not a life insurance guarentee against any encounters against men.


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## Fechin (Feb 12, 2004)

Bucky said:


> What he says, which was & is misconscrued by PJ, The Witch-king & many people on this site, is NOT that "no man can harm or kill the Witch-king" but, "Not by the hand of man will he fall".
> 
> It's simply a prophesy, not a life insurance guarentee against any encounters against men.



I think this inculdes Man,WoMAN, Hobbit, Elf, Dwarf, Gollum, etc. etc. That could not harm the Witch King. I mean do you think Legolas could go and shoot an arrow at him and he is gone I can't picture it. The Man part appiles to everything and everyone in my opinion except may be my man Gandalf.

Nothing could touch him nothing. Except those daggers.(Name of the daggers in the first few posts)


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## Gandalf White (Feb 12, 2004)

Fechin said:


> I think this inculdes Man,WoMAN, Hobbit, Elf, Dwarf, Gollum, etc. etc. That could not harm the Witch King. I mean do you think Legolas could go and shoot an arrow at him and he is gone I can't picture it. The Man part appiles to everything and everyone in my opinion except may be my man Gandalf.
> 
> Nothing could touch him nothing. Except those daggers.(Name of the daggers in the first few posts)



Somehow I don't think the "man part" would be applicable to someone like, say, a female elf. She is neither a Man nor male. 

This prophesy/foresight thing always confuses me...


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## Starflower (Feb 12, 2004)

this prophecy is in almost every aspect a self-fulfilling one. I think it was Gildor or someone who first made the prophesy that' not by a hand of man will he fall'. Well it is reported that on hearing this 'the Lord of the Nazgul laughed', and he -as everyone else-thought that the prophecy meant that he was indestructable. As such, noone would even dare to try and meet him in battle. Merry and Eowyn did not set out to kill the Nazgul Lord, they just happened to be in the right place at the right time. As Eowyn herself says 'you stand between me and my kin.. begone lest you be deathless' She was spurred onto action by the death of her lord and king and by her own dark mood, Merry saw this great horrible wraith threatening Eowyn and did the only thing he could think of -stab the wraith in the leg. Which obviously gave Eowyn her chance. BUt I think the main contributor for the act was the Nazgul Lord himself, as he laughed when Eowyn stood between him and Theoden and sai 'do you not knwo that by no living man can kill me ?', and when he finds out he is a she, he falters, he starts to have doubts, and the possibility opens up that he could be killed.


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## Fechin (Feb 12, 2004)

Well my opinion is that NOBODY could kill him. Man or Woman of any Race! 

Only one person had a shot a shot in my book and that is Gandalf(The White). 

Except if they had one of those daggers he then could be harmed. Here is how I see it. Marry stabbed WK while not a fatal blow but when the dagger hit his flesh(or what not) then he became mortal(or harmable). Then a sword went though his head and there you have it no more WK. He was just at the wrong palce at the wrong time. That is my version of what happened.


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## Anárion (Feb 12, 2004)

Bucky said:


> _Earnil is all mad because he was put to shame by the Witch-King and Cirdan or some other Elf like that, says something about that no man would be able to kill the WK._
> 
> 
> OK, it's in Appendix A, the section on Gondor.....
> ...




Wait a tick, didnt Glorfindel die in a fight with a Balrog in the first age? Or is this another Glorfindel, like there is(was) 2 Gothmogs?

Anyway my "version" of the little fight, as you might call it, was that Merry kinda jumped up on the WKs back and like, stabbed him in the mantle...or something. The mantle is on his shoulders right? Well anyway, I didnt get any of this stab in the leg buisness because even though that would hurt, I doubt itd make the WK mortal...just my opinion anyway. And as "no man could harm him" then the blow that Merry did wouldnt be so harmful even if it was a dagger of the Dúnedain.


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## Fechin (Feb 12, 2004)

Yeah I bet everyone has a different view on what happened. I just wish we could ask JRR what was really going on about this issue.


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## Gandalf White (Feb 12, 2004)

Merry's stab pierced the WK behind the knee. The knife he used was crafted specifically for use against the WK, hence the effect. 

The real key is discerning what "breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will..." means.


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## Arvedui (Feb 12, 2004)

A couple of things that I feel the need to sort out:

Glorfindel's prophecy: Remember that this was a prophecy, not a curse. Glorfindel did not prohibit man from killing the Witch-king. He was a very powerful elf, and what he did, was that his foresight told him that Eowyn would deal the Witch-king the final blow. I hope that I bring the meaning through, here.

Glorfindel of Gondolin, and Glorfindel of LotR is one and the same. I know that some believe that this is not so, but it can be found somewhere in the Letters.


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## Isthir (Feb 12, 2004)

Bucky said:


> OK, it's in Appendix A, the section on Gondor.....
> 
> It's Glorfindel.....
> 
> ...


A prophecy indeed. Now, look at all prophecies, they hint at their meaning but more often than not elude the entirety of it. Think of the words "not by the hand man well he fall" There are some possibilities to this that have been discussed already:

¤ No man of Men will bring the fall of WK
¤ No man of any Race will bring the fall of WK

With all that prefacing out of the way, I can freely state that all of the WK's power stems from the Ring that he wears, not he himself. So, as an almost most far stretched conclusion, Merry's blade bit through the armorment of the Mortal Ring to the man benieth who had fadded, causing the stretching of life to falter of him, allowing the Shield Maiden to commit the final blow.

Just my thoughts.
-Isthir​


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## Grond (Feb 12, 2004)

Fechin said:


> I think this inculdes Man,WoMAN, Hobbit, Elf, Dwarf, Gollum, etc. etc. That could not harm the Witch King. I mean do you think Legolas could go and shoot an arrow at him and he is gone I can't picture it. The Man part appiles to everything and everyone in my opinion except may be my man Gandalf.
> 
> Nothing could touch him nothing. Except those daggers.(Name of the daggers in the first few posts)


You'd be right... except the author himself doesn't agree with you.


> _from Appendix A, The Kings of the Mark,_
> 38 For her shield-arm was broken by the mace of the Witch-king; but he was brought of nothing, and *thus the words of Glorfindel long before to King Eärnur were fulfilled, that the Witch-king would not fall by the hand of man.* For it is said in the songs of the Mark that in this deed Éowyn had the aid of Théoden's esquire, and that he also was not a Man but a halfling out of a far country, though Éomer gave him honour in the Mark and the name of Holdwine. ([This Holdwine was none other than Meriadoc the Magnificent who was Master of Buckland.)


The clear intent of this footnote is to let us know that:
1) Eowyn (a woman and not a man) killed the Witch-king and 
2) she was aided by Merry (a hobbit and not a man) and 
3) thus was Glorfindel's "prophsy" fulfilled.


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## Fechin (Feb 13, 2004)

Very good you found the answer!!! But I still like my version much better!  Once I get something in my head like that I can't change it lol.


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## Fechin (Feb 13, 2004)

Ok I got a question. What about the other 8 Nazgul? Did the same rules apply to them or was it just for the WK the whole dagger and woman thing. Do the other 8 what kind of rules do they have can they just not be killed period like the my version stated below.




> I think this inculdes Man,WoMAN, Hobbit, Elf, Dwarf, Gollum, etc. etc. That could not harm the Witch King. I mean do you think Legolas could go and shoot an arrow at him and he is gone I can't picture it. The Man part appiles to everything and everyone in my opinion except may be my man Gandalf.
> 
> Nothing could touch him nothing. Except for those daggers.


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## Grond (Feb 13, 2004)

Fechin said:


> Ok I got a question. What about the other 8 Nazgul? Did the same rules apply to them or was it just for the WK the whole dagger and woman thing. Do the other 8 what kind of rules do they have can they just not be killed period like the my version stated below.


I think you've kind of missed the point. The Witch-king COULD have been killed by Man. Glorfindel prophesied (through Elvish foresight) that his doom was not to be at the hands of Man. All nine of the Nazgul were bound to Earth by their enslavement to the Ring but I am sure could be bested in battle much as the Witch-king was if they were faced with the right foe and the right weapon. (I haven't really researched this and my statements are my opinions only!)


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## Fechin (Feb 13, 2004)

Oh ok so basically they were just like anyone else it is just that only an idiot would face them? Ok I am still reading the other works by JRR so I will sort it out soon enough lol.


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## Beleg (Feb 14, 2004)

What do you people make of this quote then?



> Leaving the inn at night and running off into the dark is an impossible solution of the difficulties of presentation here (which I can see). It is the last thing that Aragorn would have done. It is based on a misconception of the Black Riders throughout, which I beg Z to reconsider. Their peril is almost entirely due to the unreasoning _fear_ which they inspire (like ghosts). They have no great physical power against the fearless; but what they have, and the fear that they inspire, is enormously increased in _darkness._ The Witch-king, their leader, is more powerful in all ways than the others; but he must not yet be raised to the stature of Vol. III. There, put in command by Sauron, he is given an added demonic force. But even in the Battle of the Pelennor, the darkness had only just broken.



Letter No 210.


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## Anárion (Feb 15, 2004)

Makes sense.
The Nazgûl just inspired fear in the heart of man and didnt really have a match, because everyone would run or cower in fear and then die. Added with darkness, men had no hope to defeat him and were to afraid to try...interesting.
But then why didnt Aragorn kill one on Amon Sûl then? He was brave enough to fight them and he was doing a good job, but then he stopped. Maybe the darkness got to him..?


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## Gandalf White (Feb 15, 2004)

Anárion said:


> But then why didnt Aragorn kill one on Amon Sûl then? He was brave enough to fight them and he was doing a good job, but then he stopped. Maybe the darkness got to him..?



In the books Aragorn goes after the Nazgul with two flaming pieces of wood, not a sword or anything. Also, the Ringwraiths withdraw right after Frodo is stabbed because they believe they have completed their mission and that the Morgul blade will soon reach Frodo's heart. They don't really bother to put up any sort of fight.


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## Inderjit S (Feb 16, 2004)

That's because in the wilderness 'fire is their friend' and it may have been more effective that his broken sword at warding off the Ringwraiths.

Of course, if any of the Hobbits had stabbed a Ringwraith with a barrow-blade then they would have been destroyed, but that was because of the nature of their swords.


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## Lantarion (Feb 16, 2004)

Grond said:


> I think you've kind of missed the point. The Witch-king COULD have been killed by Man.


Yes of course he could have been; but as I see it the Witch-King could not have been killed without the aid of something to break whatever 'spell' still held the W-K in the Seen, and this aid was delivered by Merry. 
I believe that not a single one of the Úlairi could have been killed by any regular Man, because they existed for the most part in the Unseen (as proved by Frodo's vision of them when he wears the Ring). The darkness/light issue does not discuss whether the darkness or light made them more vulnerable or not, but that the darkness or light affected their strength and powers (fear, Black Breath, physical strength). 
An Elf, I believe, could have killed one of the Nazgûl, as an Elf could _possibly_ (not probably) have killed a Valarauko, and for the same reason: both Balrogs and the Úlairi interexist in both the Seen and Unseen, and the apparent power of Elves to travel between these realms is the only real weapon against either of these enemies. And that is why the Nazgûl, if this theory holds true, were so afraid of Glorfindel as he chased them to the Ford of Bruinen.
There are probably several flaws in this reasoning, but I would like to hear them.


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## Gothmog (Feb 16, 2004)

> In the books Aragorn goes after the Nazgul with two flaming pieces of wood, not a sword or anything.



And let us suppose that the foot-long hilt-shard of Narsil had indeed struck the Witch-king. Would Anduril have been such a spectacular sword?


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## Gandalf White (Feb 16, 2004)

Gothmog said:


> And let us suppose that the foot-long hilt-shard of Narsil had indeed struck the Witch-king. Would Anduril have been such a spectacular sword?



That would create a very interesting dilemma...

Anyway, I was explaining that Aragorn really didn't have a chance to kill any Nazgul on Weathertop.


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## Gothmog (Feb 16, 2004)

I agree with you. It is just that the thought of what would have happened to Narsil croped up as I was reading your post.


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## Gandalf White (Feb 16, 2004)

Gothmog said:


> I agree with you. It is just that the thought of what would have happened to Narsil croped up as I was reading your post.



Yeah, they might as well have flushed the remaining pieces down the toilet, along with a copy of the prophecy...


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