# Dark Numenorain palantirs set in ME?



## Hisoka Morrow (Mar 21, 2022)

Alcuin once mentioned that there were still bunches of auxiliary military forces garrisoned the ME of the Dark Numenorain colonies, yet nothing was mentioned about why these deadly weapons were not distributed to guard the Numenorain back. Was the ME colonies so neglected to the King's Men? Or the Imperial military dared not spare anything they got to handle the Valinor?
Yeah, in foreign territory, was only Numenorain regular military having the authority to get equipped with such absolutely necessary triumph card?
Any idea?


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## Olorgando (Mar 21, 2022)

Elendil and his sons brought the seven existing Palantiri to Middle-earth at the destruction of Númenor. They were made by the Elves - I'm re-reading my German translation of LoTR, and in it Gandalf assumes they may have been made by Fëanor himself - and were certainly not given to the King's party which was starting to rebel, as per Appendix B, in 2251 Second Age, when Tar-Atanamir became king. They were given to the Faithful, the Lords of Andúnië also directly descended from Elros, of whom Elendil was the head after his father Amandil disappeared on his desperate attempt to reach the Undying Lands and stave off disaster from Númenor. The Black Númenóreans never had any access to them.


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## Halasían (Mar 21, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> Elendil and his sons brought the seven existing Palantiri to Middle-earth at the destruction of Númenor. They were made by the Elves - I'm re-reading my German translation of LoTR, and in it Gandalf assumes they may have been made by Fëanor himself - and were certainly not given to the King's party which was starting to rebel, as per Appendix B, in 2251 Second Age, when Tar-Atanamir became king. They were given to the Faithful, the Lords of Andúnië also directly descended from Elros, of whom Elendil was the head after his father Amandil disappeared on his desperate attempt to reach the Undying Lands and stave off disaster from Númenor. The Black Númenóreans never had any access to them.



I just recently read this. Thanks for writing it out Gandolorian! Stealing it for a Palantiri lore section. 

Per the OP, if we're talking FanFic, I read an account on Many Paths to Tread of the Osgiliath Palantiri, having fallen into the Anduin when Castamir sacked the city in 1437 of the Third Age, rolled with the currents of successive spring floods to the sea where it was snagged in a dragline of a fishing boat from Unbar. It fetched a hefty price from the Black Númenóreans, so they acquired one for Knowballes stories.


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## Rōmānus (Mar 22, 2022)

Hisoka Morrow said:


> Alcuin once mentioned that there were still bunches of auxiliary military forces garrisoned the ME of the Dark Numenorain colonies, yet nothing was mentioned about why these deadly weapons were not distributed to guard the Numenorain back. Was the ME colonies so neglected to the King's Men? Or the Imperial military dared not spare anything they got to handle the Valinor?
> Yeah, in foreign territory, was only Numenorain regular military having the authority to get equipped with such absolutely necessary triumph card?
> Any idea?


The Black Númenoreans did not possess the Seeing Stones. Gandalf relates to Pippin that there were but seven of them and they were a gift from the Eldar to the leaders of the Faithful in Númenor (LotR, The Palantír). They were used to watch the borders of the Kings, and to communicate, as Arvedui did with Gondor in his attempt to claim its throne in his wife’s name.

The Stones are also tied to the royal house, “I am the lawful master of the Stone, and I had both the right and the strength to use it... The right cannot be doubted.” (The Passing of the Grey Company) In the Third Age the Black Númenoreans were in Far Harad, or the deep South, ruling over lesser men, similar to the Dúnedain in Gondor and Arthedain. There is one such Dúnadan seen at the Black Gate (The Black Gate Opens), the Mouth of Sauron, and Aragorn mentions Beruthiel who married King Tarannon of Gondor long ago.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Mar 22, 2022)

Halasían said:


> I just recently read this. Thanks for writing it out Gandolorian! Stealing it for a Palantiri lore section.
> 
> Per the OP, if we're talking FanFic, I read an account on Many Paths to Tread of the Osgiliath Palantiri, having fallen into the Anduin when Castamir sacked the city in 1437 of the Third Age, rolled with the currents of successive spring floods to the sea where it was snagged in a dragline of a fishing boat from Unbar. It fetched a hefty price from the Black Númenóreans, so they acquired one for Hisoka's story.


No, I don't write stuff in your style.


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## Halasían (Mar 22, 2022)

Hisoka Morrow said:


> No, I don't write stuff in your style.


Hiso, I didn’t say I wrote it. I said I read it. 😂


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## Hisoka Morrow (Mar 22, 2022)

Halasían said:


> Hiso, I didn’t say I wrote it. I said I read it. 😂


Hussy, I didn't say you write it, for it's much better than yours.

In addition, didn't you say you are going to ignore me? Then what are you doing now? Finding none intelligent enough to understand your great work?


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## Halasían (Mar 23, 2022)

Was being civil and just trying to help you out since you asked the question. You don’t have to be rude.

as Orlo and Julius pointed out, there is no lore in Tolkien’s work that would relate to the question you asked.

By the way Hissoka, why are you following me?


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## Hisoka Morrow (Mar 23, 2022)

I didn't say anything about smoking up my own stuff above JRRT, please read my question twice before you answer me. I was just being as civil as you, apart from smoking up fanfic above JRRT's great work.
In addition, if it's I following you, then what are you answering me in the first place? Most of all, I am not asking anything about smoking up JRRT with any pathetic time-consuming stuff from "JRRT experts", Hussy?🤣



Julius_Evola said:


> The Black Númenoreans did not possess the Seeing Stones. Gandalf relates to Pippin that there were but seven of them and they were a gift from the Eldar to the leaders of the Faithful in Númenor (LotR, The Palantír). They were used to watch the borders of the Kings, and to communicate, as Arvedui did with Gondor in his attempt to claim its throne in his wife’s name.
> 
> The Stones are also tied to the royal house, “I am the lawful master of the Stone, and I had both the right and the strength to use it... The right cannot be doubted.” (The Passing of the Grey Company) In the Third Age the Black Númenoreans were in Far Harad, or the deep South, ruling over lesser men, similar to the Dúnedain in Gondor and Arthedain. There is one such Dúnadan seen at the Black Gate (The Black Gate Opens), the Mouth of Sauron, and Aragorn mentions Beruthiel who married King Tarannon of Gondor long ago.





Olorgando said:


> Elendil and his sons brought the seven existing Palantiri to Middle-earth at the destruction of Númenor. They were made by the Elves - I'm re-reading my German translation of LoTR, and in it Gandalf assumes they may have been made by Fëanor himself - and were certainly not given to the King's party which was starting to rebel, as per Appendix B, in 2251 Second Age, when Tar-Atanamir became king. They were given to the Faithful, the Lords of Andúnië also directly descended from Elros, of whom Elendil was the head after his father Amandil disappeared on his desperate attempt to reach the Undying Lands and stave off disaster from Númenor. The Black Númenóreans never had any access to them.



Thx, so this means that the palantirs were provided to the Faithful only, my sources of information was not precise enough, mentioned only that the palantirs were provided to the Numenorain yet without any detailed information.


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## Halasían (Mar 23, 2022)

Hisoka Morrow said:


> so this means that the palantirs were provided to the Faithful only, my sources of information was not precise enough, mentioned only that the palantirs were provided to the Numenorain yet without any detailed information.


… which should be obvious to anyone who read about the Palantíri.
This may help you, as well as this.


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## Matthew Bailey (Mar 23, 2022)

As others have pointed-out, the Black Númenórean populations had no Palantíri.

Tolkien tended to avoid writing about things he found disturbing, despite knowing he would have to eventually.

Thus the Black Númenóreans have received little attention, despite probably outnumbering those loyal to the Elendili, and the Kingdoms in Exile.

While Elendil only managed to save the roughly 3,000 from Númenór proper in the nine ships for that specific purpose, it is likely that about 10× that number of Elendili existed in Pelargir and Umbar, at least (and the respective settlements in Eriador), if not more.

But that compares to the probable 100× that number of Kings’ Men/Black Númenóreans still in Middle-earth, whether in Umbar and the *many *Colonies in Harad Tolkien never really covered, but also in Pelargir, and the rest of Gondor and the areas of Rhovanion and Eriador that had been colonized by the Númenóreans.

I keep meaning to finish it, but in terms of what Tolkien describes for the Númenóreans, their capabilities, and the cities they built, there would need to be a *lot more of them* than Tolkien allows.

In the recently published _*The Nature of Middle-earth*_ Tolkien describes the Eldar populations and ad that of Elves in general at their awakenng in Cuívienen as being only a few dozen, and a population of a few dozens of thousands in the March.

I happen to be blessed with having a large number of academics in the family (And would be described as such myself, but for an accident that derailed that event in the late-1980s), where my younger sister is a Zoologist, and who happens to specialize in Genetic Combinatorics in Endangered Species who have fallen below the required population to successfully recover by natural means. But when I showed her Tolkien’s explanation of the Elves’ breeding patterns, she said “They would die off in a few generations, even if they don’t die of old age.”

But that is mentioned only as an example to illustrate that Tolkien’s rather substantial hatred of Modernity and Urbanization led to his inability to consider the Externalities involved with pastoral populations, and that by the time you get any kind of “city” happening, you have populations that are in the millions to tens of millions to support said cities (Rome, as an example, when it reached a population of just 250,000 — which is said to be either the population of Minas Tirith at its height or, or ½ that population — had 10× that number required to support its population in terms of growing food, and the making of goods, or performing of services. And that isn’t including the Slave Population, which neither Gondor nor Arnor would have — at least not under that name, and likely not as Chattel Slavery as existed in Rome… Maybe the Kings Men during that period and the later Black Númenóreans would have such a Slave Population, and I cannot imagine them *NOT* having such a population). 

The existence of various supernatural elements in Middle-earth does present a means to either justify or produce some sort of post-hoc rationalization or equivocation for such things, but that would tend to conflict with other statements we have of Tolkien.

Tolkien, like most who are rather fervent _Believers_ in any of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic Faiths, tend to want to eat their cake, and have it too (The proper order of that aphorism — indicating, you can’t eat the cake, and still have a cake), in that he wished for a “Unifying and coherent system of Metaphysics and Theology,” but then get angry about people pointing-out the inherent aspects _*of*_ such a system (which _*Letters*_ is filled to overflowing with examples). This tends to be a feature of all Theistic Faiths, especially those claiming *Historical *_*Fact*_ in the Myths supporting them. The 2,000 year history of Heresy, Schism, and Reformation, and then the rampant bifurcation again-and-again of the Protestant Faiths, such that we now have some 30,000+ Sects, provides ample evidence of the results of trying to resolve the inherent contradictions in those faiths.

Which is why Tolkien never completed his Mythos, and why we don’t have more textual sources for things like Orcs, the Black Númenóreans, the origins of things like Ungoliant, and a more detailed explanation of things that have nothing to do with _Evil_ within Eä or Middle-earth, per se, such as Goldberry’s parents (Nature Spirits), or Tom Bombadil (while we _*do*_ have an account of *What AND Who* Tom Bombadil is, that is immediately pushed behind the Curtain, with Tolkien proclaiming *“*_*I AM THE GREAT AND POWERFUL OZ! IGNORE THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN!” *_wrt looking further into the consequences of that identity/ontology).

Pity that Tolkien was not more tolerant of things that distressed him.

MB


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## Olorgando (Mar 24, 2022)

Matthew Bailey said:


> The existence of various supernatural elements in Middle-earth does present a means to either justify or produce some sort of post-hoc rationalization or equivocation for such things, but that would tend to conflict with other statements we have of Tolkien.


The Palantiri were created by the Noldor, probably Fëanor. In all of this Noldorin creativity in their aspect of being the technological branch of the Eldar, be for gemstones of whatever sort, and much more so their capabilities in metal technology, JRRT seems to utterly ignore the extremely dirty aspect involved here: mining.

Oh sure, In Morgoth's and Sauron's realms we have a profusion of slag heaps and pools of poisoned water. A perfect description of any place where any kind of gem and metal mining takes place. If the Noldor began creating swords and other items of war from metals in Valinor, there must have been such Mordor-like places there - impossible to do large-scale mining in secret, especially in the land of the Valar. Or are we to assume that Aulë took care of the entire messy part, delivering up pure metals (and gems) to the Noldor - and the Teleri, the latter were very fond of silver, weren't they?

Same must hold true for the great miners of Middle-earth, the Dwarves. Where were all of the slag heaps that are unavoidable in the kind of mining they did, at Gabilgathol (Belegost) and Tumunzahar (Nogrod), at Khazâd-dûm (Moria) and Erebor, the Lonely Mountain?


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## Matthew Bailey (Mar 24, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> The Palantiri were created by the Noldor, probably Fëanor. In all of this Noldorin creativity in their aspect of being the technological branch of the Eldar, be for gemstones of whatever sort, and much more so their capabilities in metal technology, JRRT seems to utterly ignore the extremely dirty aspect involved here: mining.
> 
> Oh sure, In Morgoth's and Sauron's realms we have a profusion of slag heaps and pools of poisoned water. A perfect description of any place where any kind of gem and metal mining takes place. If the Noldor began creating swords and other items of war from metals in Valinor, there must have been such Mordor-like places there - impossible to do large-scale mining in secret, especially in the land of the Valar. Or are we to assume that Aulë took care of the entire messy part, delivering up pure metals (and gems) to the Noldor - and the Teleri, the latter were very fond of silver, weren't they?
> 
> Same must hold true for the great miners of Middle-earth, the Dwarves. Where were all of the slag heaps that are unavoidable in the kind of mining they did, at Gabilgathol (Belegost) and Tumunzahar (Nogrod), at Khazâd-dûm (Moria) and Erebor, the Lonely Mountain?


Way ahead of you there.

In this respect, though, we have the Metaphysics and Theology to rescue the Elves and Dwarves (and Númenóreans, at the very least.

And, in another case of having a bounty of expertise in the Family, my father used to be the CFO of one of the largest mining Gold, Silver, Platinum, and other precious metal mining and refining companies in the world during the mid-20th Century, and at least two PhDs in Geology.

My father, when I first began reading Tolkien, asked about this very thing when I was describing the situation with the Balrog and Khazad-dûm/Moria, and I have pointedly asked both my Nephew and his Grandfather (my brother’s Father-in-Law) about the mining of ANY metal in the Ancient World.

The ancients in this respect had it easy, as Copper, Tin, Zinc, Gold, Silver, Lead, and other Metals in that same group, all occurred in rather pure forms in MANY places in Old and New Worlds (this was what made the Gold-Rushes of the New-World such a phenomenon. The sorts of deposits found in Colorado, Wyoming, New Mexico (and Mexico and places South American), Arizona, Utah, Nevada, California, and Alaska (less so in Oregon and Washington, with the States along the Border between Washington and Wisconsin having deposits that were not as pure, but vastly more accessible than were to be found in later-19th Century Mining).

So in Middle-earth, we can assume that the _Low-Hanging Fruit_ was both more abundant (Tolkien’s comments on Gold being particularly vulnerable to _The Morgoth Element_ would likely have been something Morgoth promoted a profusion of via his part in the Ainulindalë, and later works), and just as easily mined as the earlier such Metals are in our world.

I have also grilled them extensively about the nature of Orthanc, and the First Wall of Minas Tirith, regarding their composition, and discovered a huge number of naturally occurring Boron-containing Chondritic Basalts, as-well-as some types of “concrete” that can be made with Chondritic Rocks, Boron, Magnesium, and a few other Trace Materials, where the materials are cast from a Molten Rock. Those sorts of processes are incredibly difficult even today (not to mention dangerous), but they can produce enormous stoneworks that approach, of in some cases exceed the hardness of diamond on Moh’s Scale of Hardness (Diamond ceased to be the hardest substance on Earth over the last two decades, resulting in an ongoing debate over whether to make these new materials a ‘10’ on the scale, or — and I am not kidding here — to “turn it up to 11,” referencing _*Spinal Tap*_ in the process).

But as such, the production of Slag-Heaps among the Elves, or the Dwarves and Humans, would probably not have occurred until the 2nd Age.

We can also assume that the Dwarves would have known methods of reducing the chemicals used in these processes to those that are not environmentally harmful (a lot of Nitrogen, Carbon, Oxygen, Hydrogen, and trace-metals that can themselves be recovered for use would be the end-products). The Noldor at the very-least (and thus Celebrimbor in Eregion) would also have likely known how to refine the more difficult ores akin to the processes used by the Dwarves to prevent poisoning the environment.

Remember, this happens in our world because the basic Greed of Humanity caused it to not care about what it was doing, and thus did not bother to develop processes that are not harmful to the environment. This is something that has cut-off mineral extraction in many countries who have enacted laws requiring such methods (One of the largest Gold Mines in Latin-America is now at the bottom of an enormous lake that isn’t likely to ever be drained because of the countries enacting such policies after coups or revolutions. And the US companies who had operated the mines were prevented from continuing to operate the pumps that kept the mines from filling with water — and then the very deep valleys they were in from filling up with water — which caused the mines to flood. Before the government realized what was at stake, _*all*_ of the equipment was underwater, and the people who knew how to operate it had fled the country, as the Hunta was killing them for working for the “yanquis”).

Where most people who become obsessed with Tolkien dive into the Languages, I was more interested in things that GRR Martin always complained about (I owned part of a miniature company in the 1980s who had previously owned a license for Lord of the Rings miniatures, and at the Gencon and Origins Summer Gaming Conventions, Martin was a regular at the AD&D tournaments, and holding court about how stupid Tolkien was). I was way ahead of Martin, but because I wasn’t afflicted either by his extremist atheism, or by the extremist Religious Faiths that seemed to exist among many of the Tolkien scholars and enthusiasts (although that was less common in the 1980s, prior to people learning of just how extreme Tolkien’s own commitment to Catholicism was/is) I was able to apply the Philosophical, Metaphysical, and Theological properties Tolkien proposed to these very problems. Martin was NOT satisfied by that, and Greg Stafford (an inventor of another somewhat famous Mythology) and Michael Moorock would mock him in return for not understanding that these worlds were not Earth. And thus, even if you have some things that are similar (Gravity and thus some physics, Biology, Geology, Chemistry, etc…), you must take into account that Cartesian Dualism (at the least) is _*True*_ in Middle-earth, even if it isn’t in our Universe.

The areas I find Tolkien’s works to suffer more are in the area of basic populations, and infrastructure.

As I stated earlier, his fear/hatred of Modernity (for justified reasons, even if the conclusions he reached, like many others, were wrong) caused him to push for populations that were insufficient to address MANY of the other things that appeared in his works, *even when *accounting for the ‘supernatural’ solutions for more than a few of those things.

MB

Edit:

GRRM was also a notorious/infamous _Player Killer_ in AD&D games. His rather hardcore Utilitarian view of Game-Theory caused him, and everyone like him, to believe that killing the other “players” was best done before they kill you. His writing reflects that same mentality, where he doesn’t understand cooperative systems very well. Such systems are foundational parts of Middle-earth.


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## Olorgando (Mar 24, 2022)

Matthew Bailey said:


> Edit:
> 
> GRRM was also a notorious/infamous _Player Killer_ in AD&D games. His rather hardcore Utilitarian view of Game-Theory caused him, and everyone like him, to believe that killing the other “players” was best done before they kill you. His writing reflects that same mentality, where he doesn’t understand cooperative systems very well. Such systems are foundational parts of Middle-earth.


This sound's suspiciously like the "prisoners' dilemma" that I've read about in several books (non-fiction) ... but I had another question ...


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## Olorgando (Mar 24, 2022)

Matthew Bailey said:


> I have also grilled them extensively about the nature of Orthanc, and the First Wall of Minas Tirith, regarding their composition, and discovered a huge number of naturally occurring Boron-containing Chondritic Basalts, as-well-as some types of “concrete” that can be made with Chondritic Rocks, Boron, Magnesium, and a few other Trace Materials, where the materials are cast from a Molten Rock. Those sorts of processes are incredibly difficult even today (not to mention dangerous), but they can produce enormous stoneworks that approach, of in some cases exceed the hardness of diamond on Moh’s Scale of Hardness (Diamond ceased to be the hardest substance on Earth over the last two decades, ...


Your mention of Orthanc brings me to a question that has often occurred to me.
I'm currently re-reating LoTR - in my German translation, for the fun of it - and I'm currently in Book Four, chapter III "The Black Gate is Closed". Meaning I've just recently read Book Three's chapter X "The Voice of Saruman" (to nudge back a bit to the OP). Gandalf has just broken Saruman's staff, and then:

"At that moment a heavy shining thing came hurtling down from above. It glanced off the Iron rail, even as Saruman left it, and passing close to Gandalf's head, it smote the stair on which he stood. The rail rang and *snapped*. The stair cracked and splintered in glittering sparks, But the ball was unharmed: it rolled on down the steps, a globe of crystal, dark, but glowing with a heart of fire."

Crystal strikes iron, and iron snaps? Have you ever grilled your relatives on the real-life possibilities of a material showing the characteristics of the Palantiri? (Note: even the steps of Orthanc are damaged by the Palantir ...)
Now I know materials technology has taken some strides in recent years - "buckyballs" and "buckytubes seem to have some amazing properties, but I have no idea if there have been any practical uses and / or large-scale production of either yet. But I would have put iron etc. more on the tougher, but "softer" side of the scale, while classical "crystals - to us laypeople the best-known forms are gems - to be on the hard, but brittle side. The Orthanc Palantir seems to have both enormous surface hardness and enormous resistance to shattering, i.e. toughness. I so far had the impression that between the two characteristics, materials would always represent a trade-off - raise one characteristic, then the other suffers; that you can't have a maximum of both.

_(As to the Palantiri's long-range transmission of pictures and thoughts, I gloss over the facts that they have no visible power source, nor any visible transmitting / receiving equipment. But maybe Fëanor managed to incorporate all of this in the Palantiri using a nanotechnology that we haven't even dreamed of ...  )_


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## Matthew Bailey (Mar 24, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> Your mention of Orthanc brings me to a question that has often occurred to me.
> I'm currently re-reating LoTR - in my German translation, for the fun of it - and I'm currently in Book Four, chapter III "The Black Gate is Closed". Meaning I've just recently read Book Three's chapter X "The Voice of Saruman" (to nudge back a bit to the OP). Gandalf has just broken Saruman's staff, and then:
> 
> "At that moment a heavy shining thing came hurtling down from above. It glanced off the Iron rail, even as Saruman left it, and passing close to Gandalf's head, it smote the stair on which he stood. The rail rang and *snapped*. The stair cracked and splintered in glittering sparks, But the ball was unharmed: it rolled on down the steps, a globe of crystal, dark, but glowing with a heart of fire."
> ...




Yes. There are a huge number of possible elements or compounds that can break iron without itself snapping.

Flawless diamond being the very first (That is a hard thing to explain, as technically any diamond can be cut, but there is a difference between the Jewelers’ definition of “flawless” and the Physicist’s or Chemist’s definition).

But there are others that are _Theoretical_ that exist in Period8+ elements, where we have some insane properties, including crystalline lattices that make Carbon-based crystals or lattices like Graphene seem like spun-sugar (cotton-candy) in comparison.

Before we even get to those, the Boron-Nitride Crystals I mentioned, and Chondritic Basalts have those properties as well. As do things like palladium micro-alloyed glass.

You could make a hammer out of that glass, and use it for blacksmith work. It comes in different “qualities” depending upon the degree of palladium-alloying.

*BUT….*

We don’t even need to go to any of these, though.

Remember I mentioned the ’_Supernatural_‘ properties that exist in Middle-earth?

This is the Fëa Component of the Universe of Eä, or what Tolkien called the ‘_erma_’ or ‘_ermanië_,’ which is the “Primary Substance” of the Universe (Eä)out of which the ”Material” of the Universe (nessa) is composed.

Physics in Middle-earth (and Arda and Eä within each, respectively) must account for these.

Meaning that the basics of Physics, whether Newtonian, Einsteinian, or the various Quantum Physics, must include something to account for them.

Thus instead of F = ma, you would have F = mφa; and instead of just e = mc² (BTW, F = ma is a generalization of e = mc², because acceleration is in a “Unit of Velocity Squared,” what Einstein did was ask “What if acceleration was the Speed of Light?”) you would have e = mφc²… It is more difficult to demonstrate this on Quantum Physics/Mechanics, given that it is descriptive, and not yet at the level of an explanatory Theory, as is Newtonian and Einsteinian Physics (where these can be summed-up with single expressions for each “domain” involved, Quantum Physics is Galaxy of descriptive equations that detail specific applications, rather than explaining Quantum Physics as a whole). But one would simply need to insert a component for ’φ’ (which I will get to in a second, if it isn’t already obvious) to account for the Fëar components.

As just stated ‘φ’ is used to represent the action or effects of Fëa Or Fëar upon the Physical World, and vice-versa (The Physical World affects it, as the Einsteinian Equation tells us that Mass (Hröar or Nessar) can be converted to Energy, and Energy to Mass (Hröar or Nessar), so too can either be converted to Fëar. (This is intricately connected to how “Undead” are both created and exist within Middle-earth)

As with Enchanted (and *not *_‘Magic’_) Swords, or other similar artifacts, the Palantíri could have some property of Fëa that allows it to be exceptionally, if not outright immune, to physical objects.

The most recent publication, _*The Nature of Middle-earth*_, contains more than a few chapters where this is alluded to, without Tolkien ever understanding the nature of the implications involved (Largely because a whirlwind of Heresy is involved in each allusion that causes Tolkien to veer-away at the last moment).

Tolkien would likely be irate and outraged over anyone doing what I just did above (explain the Spiritual via “_*Science!*_”). The First Vatican Ecumenical Council said “Thou shalt keep Science out of our Peanut-Butter… I mean… Religion” (That is a paraphrase, but the First Vatican Ecumenical Council was basically a bunch of Grandpa Simpson’s yelling at the 19th Century Scientists “_*Get off my (our) lawn!!!!*_” 100 years later they would “clarify” the First Vatican Ecumenical Council with the Second, famously known as “_Vatican II_,” which didn’t so much as “clarify” as say “Ignore the man behind the Curtain who gave you Vatican I.”

Vatican II basically said “The Story of Creation is a Metaphor.” Which blew a freaking *ENORMOUS HOLE* in Catholic Theology’s _Original Sin._

How does a single-celled organism “Sin?” (That is where all Life evolved from, regardless of whether “God” did something to cause that Single-called Life to exist to begin with)

Or, at what point did the Homonids from which Humanity evolved suddenly realize “OMG! We weren’t supposed to eat from that Tree! We’re naked! The Snake told us too!!!”

If you read _*The Nature of Middle-earth*_, you’ll discover that Tolkien dutifully blew-up Middle-earth to obey or comply with Vatican II, when his entire creation of it sprang from Vatican I (The Vatican II Encyclical is one of the most contentious things in Christian Theology, surpassing even the Early-Christian Heresies, and the Reformation in terms of the outrage it caused. We are lucky that it occurred in the 20th Century, and not in the 16th, or we would still likely be fighting the Wars that would have sprung from it).

So….

We have any number of purely Natural, or “Enchanted” materials from which to choose (or a combination of both) for the “Nessa” of the Palatíri.

I should post some of the drawings I have that are based upon the properties and _reality_ that result from a hard Cartesian Dualism being Real, as it is in Middle-earth (_*The Nature of Middle-earth*_ also confirms that Manicheaenism and a few other of the Good/Evil Dualist Heresies are True in Middle-earth as well — Those are that “Light/Dark” and “Good/Evil” are each physical things, that you can put in your pocket, bake a cake with, or build a house out of. The Light/Dark are independent of “Good/Evil,” so you can have “Light-Good” and “Light-Evil” as well as “Dark-Good” and “Dark-Evil”), such as a drawing of Arda (more properly Ambar) that illustrates how a “Flat-earth” can have orthogonal gravity before even resorting to the _Fëa Component_. (Including why the Elves couldn’t tell how far-away the stars were until the world was made Round).

MB
Edit:

And technically it was my Organic Chemistry Professor at UCLA who filled me in on the possible materials that the Palantíri could be made of. He is one of Karl Popper’s last Grad Students, and is one of the foremost authorities/experts on the Periodic Table of Elements (he has several books and hundreds of papers published on the subject, including what are dozens-and-dozens of alternative means of depicting the Periodic Table, where the one we have was chosen basically for the convenience of Metallurgists and Pharmacologists (and people who made explosives).

Some of the alternatives are rather beautiful in their own right, where they reveal properties about the elements that are not immediately obvious from the traditional periodic Table.


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## Rōmānus (Mar 25, 2022)

Hisoka Morrow said:


> I didn't say anything about smoking up my own stuff above JRRT, please read my question twice before you answer me. I was just being as civil as you, apart from smoking up fanfic above JRRT's great work.
> In addition, if it's I following you, then what are you answering me in the first place? Most of all, I am not asking anything about smoking up JRRT with any pathetic time-consuming stuff from "JRRT experts", Hussy?🤣
> 
> 
> ...


In Appendix A the Seeing Stones are said to be “gifts of the Eldar to their House” (Númenor) when the escape from Númenor’s destruction by the Faithful is recounted.


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