# Was it ok for Beren and Lúthien to involve other people in their quest?



## Arvedui (Oct 14, 2003)

> Then Beren looking up beheld the eyes of Lúthien, and his glance went also to the face of Melian and it seemed to him that words were put into his mouth. Fear left him, and the pride of the eldest house of Men returned to him; and he said: 'My fate, O King, led me hither, through perils such as few even of the Elves would dare. And here I have found what I sought not indeed, but finding I would possess for ever. For it is above all gold and silver, and beyond all jewels. Neither rock, nor steel, nor the fires of Morgoth, nor all the powers of the Elf-kingdoms, shall keep from me the treasure that I desire. For Lúthien your daughter is the fairest of all the Children of the World.'


_From The Silmarillion: Of Beren and Lúthien_ 

*Was it ok for Beren and Lúthien to involve other people in their quest for a seemingly selfish reason?* 

Another topic from the Debate Tournament.


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## Confusticated (Oct 14, 2003)

I have trouble understanding how someone could knowingly take King Finrod into what was almost certainly going to be his death for the sole puprose of being with the person he loves.

But then I've never loved someone as much as Beren loved Luthien.

_
'Farewell swet earth and northern sky,
for ever blest, since here did lie
and here with lisson limbs did run
beneath the Moon, beneth the Sun,
Luthien Tinuviel
more fair than mortal tongue can tell.
Though all to ruin fell the world
and were dissolved and backward hurled
unmade into the old abyss,
yet were its making god, for this-
the dusk, the dawn, the earth, the sea-
that Luthien for a time should be._'

But it could be Beren knew in his heart that he would succeed. That his heart was so full of love that he thought Finrod would survive too.


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 14, 2003)

Well I agree with Nom.
Beren was crazy.I mean he believed in his love he believed in his success.He was so obsessed from Luthien that could not think and reconsider some things in the best possible way.
As far as he believed in his success I would agree with him.

He caused the dead of Finrod Felagund.And that's a real mistake,but as I said Beren was in a kind of unconsciousness,he was in love.


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## Confusticated (Oct 14, 2003)

I wouldn't go so far as saying he caused Finrod's death. Sauron or the wolf did that. If we say Beren caused it, one could even twist it back and say that Finrod caused his own death.

Finrod was not forced to go with Beren, not even by his oath. Had he not been such a good person he could have simply had a few of his people go along with Beren, which would of course qualify as fulfillment of the oath.

Finrod did know he would die, and must have known it was for such a purpose... so I wouldn't even blame Beren for Finrod's death. Finrod was willing. Even Thingol probably knew Beren might seek Finrod's aid, this is worse because Thingol had no doubt it was a death trap. He may never have expected Finrod himself would actually go along though... I wouldn't be surpised if Thingol just didn't think that way.


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## Ithrynluin (Oct 14, 2003)

Barahir father of Beren saved Finrod's life in the Dagor Bragollach so Finrod 'owed him one' . Finrod gave him the ring as a token of gratitude and a symbol of his allegiance. Barahir did not come to collect 'the payback' because he was hunted down by the servants of Sauron in Dorthonion. Beren inherits the Ring, and the 'favour'.

In asking _'What reason did Beren have for getting Finrod involved in the Quest, except the 'selfish' reason of being in love with Tinuviel?'_ we should also ask _'What reason did Barahir have for saving Finrod in the Battle of Sudden Flame?'_ Surely he put his own life at stake when he decided to rescue the Elf lord. The fact that he did not die rescuing Finrod (but only later in Dorthonion) does not diminish the worth of his deed.

So I don't think it was that unreasonable, or selfish, of Beren to seek aid from a great like Felagund. It is quite clear that Finrod had no qualms about accepting Beren's request. He expected a descendant of Barahir's to come along one day and ask for assistance in some endeavour or other. He had foreseen swearing an oath and going into darkness long before the Battle of Sudden Flame even came to pass (see Finrod's words to Galadriel). It was his doom. When Barahir saved his life he *could* have just said 'Oh gee, thanks man!', or when Beren came prowling about asking for favours he could have said 'Oh I owed your daddy one, but that favour has been annulled when he died. I ain't gettin' in trouble cause of you! Sorry!' - but that would not be the Finrod we know - generous, noble, Friend of Men.


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## Húrin Thalion (Oct 17, 2003)

If Beren had turned to someone inferior to him and ordered him to follow and help Beren on this virtually impossible quest, it would not have been right. In this case, he had a strong bond with a powerful person and went to him and sought help, which he was granted.In fact, if you read the dramatic scene in which Finrod surrenders his Kingship to Nargothrond, one might suspect that he is forced to leave his own halls, for what could a King do without support? If he had been backed by his people, he could even have sent out a few of them to help Beren in his quest, which would not have been right. Now, he himself decided to go, Beren said nothing that forced him, nor did he remind him of his oath, he just came and sought help, which he recieved.

The question should, perhaps, be whether Finrod was wise in following Beren, maybe it is the duty of friends to make eachother see the realities and steer them away from their foolish actions.

Måns


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