# Navy and naval warfare in Middle-Earth



## Aldarion (Dec 1, 2019)

Navy in Middle-Earth


Introduction Despite not featuring prominently, navy and naval operations play a significant role in Tolkien’s Middle Earth. In the First Age, elves of Feanor come to Middle Earth from Valino…




militaryfantasy.home.blog







> *Introduction*
> 
> Despite not featuring prominently, navy and naval operations play a significant role in Tolkien’s Middle Earth. In the First Age, elves of Feanor come to Middle Earth from Valinor across the sea; their kinsmen, who had been forced to use the land route, suffer terribly. In the last battle of the Age, host of Valar comes across the sea. In the Second Age, Numenor holds mastery of the sea, exploiting it fully to its strategic, operational, tactical and logistical advantage. In the Third Age, Gondor continues as a naval power, but has to contend with Corsairs of Umbar – Sauron having wisened up to the importance of naval operations.
> 
> Primary sources used are _History of Middle Earth_ and _Lord of the Rings_. Also used are _Silmarillion _and _Unfinished Tales_, albeit those books are used in Croatian translation instead of English original; I apologize in advance for any issues with reverse-translation.


----------



## Olorgando (Dec 1, 2019)

Naval operations, yes - bur it seems all to in the direction of the D-Day invasion of Normandy on 06 June 1944 - if even that. More often even unopposed landings.
Probably the actions against corsair-held Umbar would fall into the former category - though the action led by Aragorn seems to have been more of a raid to do serious damage, not an attempt at invasion and occupation.
Anyway, naval ships-vs-ships action seems to be entirely absent - at least in published texts of any sort.


----------



## Aldarion (Dec 1, 2019)

Olorgando said:


> Naval operations, yes - bur it seems all to in the direction of the D-Day invasion of Normandy on 06 June 1944 - if even that. More often even unopposed landings.
> Probably the actions against corsair-held Umbar would fall into the former category - though the action led by Aragorn seems to have been more of a raid to do serious damage, not an attempt at invasion and occupation.
> Anyway, naval ships-vs-ships action seems to be entirely absent - at least in published texts of any sort.



Historically, most naval operations actually were amphibious assaults, or at the very least were carried out in support of land operations. So that is not surprising. Especially since Mortgoth never developed a navy, and Sauron waited until late Third Age to do so - and in fact he did not develop navy, navy fell into his lap.

I guess I should have used "naval operations" instead of "naval warfare" in the title, but whatever.


----------



## Olorgando (Dec 1, 2019)

Aldarion said:


> Historically, most naval operations actually were amphibious assaults, or at the very least were carried out in support of land operations.


If with amphibious you mean opposed (beach) landings like Normandy, Sicily, Anzio, Southern France, or on numerous islands in the Pacific during WW II, that's a very new development, practically from WW II. I only recall the attempt by the WW I allies at Gallipoli in that war (the US troops entering the fray disembarked at friendly harbors). A bit of a fiasco, as the Australians and New Zealanders who took heavy casualties there (I believe that is what they commemorate with ANZAC Day). Certainly, hardly any naval ship-vs-ship battle ever decided a war. The Battle of Actium between the forces of Octavian (the future first Emperor Augustus) and the combined forces of Mark Antony and Cleopatra on 2 September 31 BC (Wiki) is the only one that comes to my mind.


----------



## Aldarion (Dec 1, 2019)

Olorgando said:


> If with amphibious you mean opposed (beach) landings like Normandy, Sicily, Anzio, Southern France, or on numerous islands in the Pacific during WW II, that's a very new development, practically from WW II. I only recall the attempt by the WW I allies at Gallipoli in that war (the US troops entering the fray disembarked at friendly harbors). A bit of a fiasco, as the Australians and New Zealanders who took heavy casualties there (I believe that is what they commemorate with ANZAC Day). Certainly, hardly any naval ship-vs-ship battle ever decided a war. The Battle of Actium between the forces of Octavian (the future first Emperor Augustus) and the combined forces of Mark Antony and Cleopatra on 2 September 31 BC (Wiki) is the only one that comes to my mind.



I meant merely disembarking troops to the shore from ships, not an opposed landing. Although amphibious assaults, as opposed to just ambhibious operations, certainly did happen - Crusaders took Constantinople in 1204. by assaulting the sea walls, and Romans I think actually had dedicated siege engines to be mounted on ships for the purpose.

There is a partial list here:





List of amphibious assault operations - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





Also this:








The Journal of Medieval Military History


Latest volume of original articles on all aspects of warfare in the middle ages. The broad topic of medieval warfare is here explored across the full chronological range of the Middle Ages, using a wide variety of approaches, including literary, prosopographical, technological, and...



books.google.hr


----------



## Alcuin (Dec 2, 2019)

Naval power and marine landings are crucial to the history of Second and Third Age Middle-earth, and there is ample reason to believe that this situation continued into the Fourth Age.

Before we discuss the strategy and tactics of naval and marine warfare, let’s discuss the means, specifically the ships that Tolkien seems to indicate were used. 

The ships of the Númenóreans are described best in the unfinished tale “Tal-Elmar” in _Peoples of Middle-earth_:
They [the Dúnedain] came in boats, but not such as some of our folk [the Men of Darkness in Second Age Middle-earth] use… Greater than great houses are the ships of the Go-hilleg [i.e., Dúnedain], and they bear store of men and goods, and yet are wafted by the winds; for the Sea-men spread great cloths like wings to catch the airs, and bind them to tall poles like trees of the forest. Thus they will come to the shore, where there is shelter, or as nigh as they may; and then they will send forth smaller boats… For if they come again it is in other guise. In greater numbers they come then: two ships or more together, stuffed with men and not goods, and ever one of the accursed ships hath black wings. …​The Númenóreans appeared suddenly and swiftly along the coastlands and rivers of western Middle-earth, and many of their lesser vessels could come to the shore; the greater ships could not. But we know that Aragorn led the fleet taken from the Corsairs of Umbar up the Anduin by rowing until the south wind came at night and lifted the sails of that fleet. 

Classical late medieval and Renaissance ships such as galleons, caravels, cogs, and carracks cannot be rowed. The vessels Tolkien seems to be describing are, first and foremost, based upon the Viking longship: able to beach itself, able to sail into rias and up rivers; to appear suddenly and without warning along the coast, and capable of bringing both men and supplies as needed. Another ancient vessel that would fit this description is the Greek penteconter, similar to that used by the Achaeans to wage the Trojan War as described by Homer. The great Mediterranean galleys of the Classical period, used the Phoenicians, Greeks, Romans, and Egyptians (for the last, until the _Anno Domini_, when they had fallen at last to Rome) included such sea-going vessels as the mighty trireme, oared by 200 men, which often rammed other ships with bronze rams in order to breach and sink them. Note that neither triremes nor their medieval and Renaissance descendents, the galleys, could be easily brought ashore, but required sophisticated docks, or as described in “Tal-Elmar”, smaller boats to ferry passengers and cargo to and from the shore. 

For ancient sea battles, there is no lack of descriptions. Looking only at Western world history with which most of us are familiar, we can begin with the Sea Peoples of ancient notoriety, who brought down what remained of the Minoan civilization after the eruption of Thera; raided the Hittite kingdoms, perhaps including Troy in the famed Trojan War _if_ the Achaeans are identical to or part of the Sea Peoples; the Philistines; and most notably their raids on ancient Egypt beginning near the end of the reign of Ramses II. Then there are the wars at sea waged by the Carthaginians and the Romans in the three Punic Wars. In the Greco-Persian Wars, the “wooden walls of Athens” and her allies that the Oracle of Delphi predicted would protect the city were in fact its navy, and though the city itself was burned by Xerxes and his armies, the Greeks were able to defeat the Persians at Artemisium, the great oft-forgotten companion naval battle to the ferocious stand of the Greeks led by the 300 Spartans at famed Thermopylae; then at Salamis while Athens burned. Olorgando has mentioned the great Battle of Actium in which Octavian (later Caesar Augustus) defeated the combined fleets of Antony and Cleopatra. At the beginning of the Renaissance, it is easy now for us to forget – indeed, few who read this the first time have ever even been taught! – that the Moslems threatened to overrun all Europe. Only at the great naval Battle of Lepanto on Thursday, October 7, 1571, was the threat of marine invasion of Italy and the southwestern Mediterranean by the Ottoman Empire ended; though on land the threat of Moslem conquest continued until Sunday, September 12, 1683, when Jan III Sobieski King of Poland broke the Third Siege of Vienna in the greatest cavalry charge in history with eighteen thousand mounted knights. (And if that is indeed the greatest cavalry charge in history, it puts into perspective the great charge of the Rohirrim with six thousand mounted knights!) *All of these great sea battles were fought with rowing ships that had at least one mounted sail, though the greater vessels might have several sails.* 

Tolkien was aware of all of these things, of course. In the Second Age, the Númenóreans first established the great port of Vinyalondë, later known as Lond Daer Enedh, at the mouth of the Gwathló; but they sailed up the river, too, all the way to Tharbad, which remained an inland port for seagoing vessels (like New Orleans, Memphis, St Louis, Paris, London, Ghent, Liège, Birmingham, Duisburg, Dortmund, and many others) and river crossing until it was destroyed by flooding in Third Age 2912 following the Fell Winter, when Bilbo was twenty-two years old, only eleven years before Aragorn was born. During the War of the Elves and Sauron, the Númenóreans landed men at Lindon to support Gil-galad when Sauron invaded Eriador, but the greater part of their expeditionary force put in at Vinyalondë, and from there launched a devastating counterattack on Sauron’s rear, annihilating his army and forcing him into ignominious personal retreat to avoid capture. They then made landings all along the west coast of Middle-earth: Umbar became the greatest of their colonies, Pelargir following some four centuries later; in the Third Age, Minas Anor (Minas Tirith) also possessed a quay for seagoing vessels, and Osgiliath was a great inland port; but in the Second Age most of the Númenórean colonies and ports were south of Umbar, along the coasts and seas of Middle-earth, and do not come into Tolkien’s tales. 

As the Second Age drew to an end, Ar-Pharazôn landed a great force at Umbar, and Sauron humbled himself, and proud Ar-Pharazôn took him back to Númenor, where he could never himself have otherwise come. There Sauron seduced the Númenóreans to final rebellion against the Valar, and Ar-Pharazôn ordered construction of a mighty Armada to assault Valinor, leading to the Downfall of Númenor. 

Afterwards in Middle-earth before the end of the Second Age, Isildur sailed to Lindon to his father Elendil in Arnor when Sauron besieged Minas Ithil. In the Third Age, the four Ship-kings of Gondor dominated the coasts and the ancient Númenórean settlements by means of their powerful navy operating from Pelargir: presumably the ancient Númenórean navy had all been destroyed in the ruin of Númenor centuries before, most all of the mariners lost, and many ports damaged or destroyed in the tsunami that followed. 

But in the Kin-strife of Gondor, the followers of Castamir the Usurper deserted to Umbar with most of the navy of Gondor. This eliminated in one stroke the naval power of Gondor and transferred it to Umbar: the Corsairs were ever after an implacable enemy of Gondor and a constant threat to its shores, which they raided for plunder and slaves. Aragorn launched a raid against them while he served Ecthelion Steward of Gondor, father of Denethor; but they remained an ever-present danger until with the Dead Men of Dunharrow he conquered them at Pelargir and seized their fleet, which became once more the germ of a new navy for Gondor. From there he led a great force of arms up the Anduin by ship like the Sea-kings of ancient Númenor to victory on the Pelennor Fields. 

The history of Númenor and Gondor is filled with naval power and marine warfare, and the great power of the principal Dúnedain states, Arnor excluded but Umbar included despite its severely degraded Númenórean heritage, was built upon their mastery of the sea.


----------



## CirdanLinweilin (Dec 3, 2019)

Alcuin said:


> At the beginning of the Renaissance, it is easy now for us to forget – indeed, few who read this the first time have ever even been taught! – that the Moslems threatened to overrun all Europe. Only at the great naval Battle of Lepanto on Thursday, October 7, 1571, was the threat of marine invasion of Italy and the southwestern Mediterranean by the Ottoman Empire ended; though on land the threat of Moslem conquest continued until Sunday, September 12, 1683, when Jan III Sobieski King of Poland broke the Third Siege of Vienna in the greatest cavalry charge in history with eighteen thousand mounted knights. (And if that is indeed the greatest cavalry charge in history, it puts into perspective the great charge of the Rohirrim with six thousand mounted knights!) *All of these great sea battles were fought with rowing ships that had at least one mounted sail, though the greater vessels might have several sails.*


Catholic Armed Pride right here!


CL


----------



## Olorgando (Dec 3, 2019)

Alcuin said:


> Looking only at Western world history with which most of us are familiar, we can begin with the Sea Peoples of ancient notoriety, who brought down what remained of the Minoan civilization after the eruption of Thera; raided the Hittite kingdoms, perhaps including Troy in the famed Trojan War _if_ the Achaeans are identical to or part of the Sea Peoples; the Philistines; and most notably their raids on ancient Egypt beginning near the end of the reign of Ramses II.


I'll PM you on this one. While it may still be widely accepted (for any laypeople who have even the slightest interest in this over 3000-year-old stuff), even in some supposedly professional circles, I have strong reasons to believe that a far more plausible scenario exists for what happened here, trashing some older assumptions about the end of the Bronze Age. Just too extensive to post here.



Alcuin said:


> Naval power and marine landings are crucial to the history of Second and Third Age Middle-earth, and there is ample reason to believe that this situation continued into the Fourth Age.


Second Age, taking it (in JRRT's legendarium as being the Age of Númenor from a human perspective) yes, but only really becoming decisive pretty much at its end. Sauron, having overrun Eriador by 1699 SA in the first War of the Rings (plural, usually referred to as "War of the Elves and Sauron" in guides / companions / lexicons) was evicted from Eriador by 1701 due to a great navy sent by (the later) Tar-Minastir (11th King of Númenor, ruled 1731 to 1869 SA, but born in 1474 SA, so that he led that naval operation as crown prince at the age of 226) to the aid of Gil-galad in 1700 SA. But this wasn't decisive. The Ar-Pharazôn mess 1600 (!!!) years later was.

I have always wondered how Númenor, an island of perhaps 168 000 square miles (in a single note to be found in Karen Wynn Fonstad's "Atlas of Middle-earth"), or about 434 000 square kilometers, could have held a population, and never mind armed forces of all kinds, to play the role it did. Granted, the "acreage" is larger that that of reunified Germany (and even Japan!), about the size of Iraq, and smaller that Sweden and Spain in Europe. But we're talking about a time when population densities wer almost microscopic compared to today. Just to throw out a number, the population of the entire world at around 4000 BC (with obvious difficulties of guessing, but once stated by JRRT as being the beginning of the Fourth Age) is estimated at about 1/1000th of today. Meaning Germany, just to take an arbitrary example, would have had a total population of 80 000. That's 30 000 less than the population of the city, Bavaria's smallest "large city" (Großstadt, starting at 100 000) that I live in. Of course, there have been periods in the past where at least regional populations were higher at certain times than they declined to after these high points. Population in Europe declined after a high reached during the Roman climate optimum centered pretty much around the BC/AD divide, with decline to a degree paralleled by the decline of the western Roman Empire. Then the Great Plage of the late 1340s, then again the Thirty Years` War of 1618 to 1648, the brunt of whose losses were mainly borne by the German population that got caught between the basically marauding "armies". My current home town was entirely depopulated for several years due to actions by marauders.

Now Númenor, having for about the first two-thirds of its existence at least some degree of benevolence by the Elves (and indirectly the Valar), populations supportable by agriculture could be assumed to be higher than far into the AD period of the real world. But still, this enmity with Sauron makes me think of a Grat Britain at any time before the 19th century attempting to challenge, say, Ghengis Khan's Mongol hordes (which were not nearly purely Mongol by the time they scared Europeans s**tless). Not realistic.
And we're not talking about masses of native troops being cut to ribbons using spears and bows and arrows and other manually handled weapons against Gatling, Maxim, Vickers and whatnot machine guns (which in JRRT's timeline would have started happening late in the Sixth Age). Of course, the Númenóreans had been sailing to M-e for quite a while, and founding what we would call colonies there. Which could then help the mother island against baddies like Sauron. Like the US (former colony, entering late), and the dominions South Africa, Australia, and New Zealand did in WW I. And again in WW II. But then there is the Black Númenórean issue clouding the Third Age.


----------



## 1stvermont (Dec 4, 2019)

Aldarion said:


> Navy in Middle-Earth
> 
> 
> Introduction Despite not featuring prominently, navy and naval operations play a significant role in Tolkien’s Middle Earth. In the First Age, elves of Feanor come to Middle Earth from Valino…
> ...




Great stuff thanks.


----------



## Aldarion (Dec 4, 2019)

Olorgando said:


> I have always wondered how Númenor, an island of perhaps 168 000 square miles (in a single note to be found in Karen Wynn Fonstad's "Atlas of Middle-earth"), or about 434 000 square kilometers, could have held a population, and never mind armed forces of all kinds, to play the role it did. Granted, the "acreage" is larger that that of reunified Germany (and even Japan!), about the size of Iraq, and smaller that Sweden and Spain in Europe. But we're talking about a time when population densities wer almost microscopic compared to today. Just to throw out a number, the population of the entire world at around 4000 BC (with obvious difficulties of guessing, but once stated by JRRT as being the beginning of the Fourth Age) is estimated at about 1/1000th of today. Meaning Germany, just to take an arbitrary example, would have had a total population of 80 000. That's 30 000 less than the population of the city, Bavaria's smallest "large city" (Großstadt, starting at 100 000) that I live in. Of course, there have been periods in the past where at least regional populations were higher at certain times than they declined to after these high points. Population in Europe declined after a high reached during the Roman climate optimum centered pretty much around the BC/AD divide, with decline to a degree paralleled by the decline of the western Roman Empire. Then the Great Plage of the late 1340s, then again the Thirty Years` War of 1618 to 1648, the brunt of whose losses were mainly borne by the German population that got caught between the basically marauding "armies". My current home town was entirely depopulated for several years due to actions by marauders.



You cannot take global population as indicative of population of e.g. Numenor, as population was much more sensitive to local variations in climate and such. Roman Italy had population of 10 million in AD1, which gives density of 33 people per square kilometer, or 85,76 people per square mile. Byzantine Empire had population density usually varying between 7 and 9 people per square kilometer (18 - 23 per sq mi).

Going with above, population of Numenor could have been anywhere between 3 038 000 and 14 322 000. Far more than your world density estimate, which does nothing to account for huge deserts, mountain ranges, rain forrests, swamps and other uninhabitable areas - none of which are in evidence in Numenor. Keep in mind that Numenor is described as having basically ideal climate, which means that it would only top out somewhere close to population density achieved by Italy during climate optimum. So Numenor would have reached 14 million people before population pressure forced colonization efforts.

For military, numbers are much more iffy. High end estimate would likely be Byzantine Empire in 1025., which had 250 000 ground troops, maybe 45 000 naval troops (my estimate) and 12 million people (2,46%). In 774 Byzantine Empire had army and navy totalling 118 400 men (80 000 army, 38 400 navy) at population of 7 million (1,69%). In 884 armed forces numbered 154 600 with population of 8 million (1,9%). Roman Empire earlier however had much fewer troops relative to population: 380 000 soldiers at population of 60 - 100 million under Trajan (0,38 - 0,63%). This means that at high-end population estimate, Numenor could have had a military of anywhere between 54 000 and 352 000 people.


----------



## Olorgando (Dec 4, 2019)

Númenor's military would have been heavily weighted towards the navy, similar to the of Great Britain respectively the British Empire. In the Napoleonic wars, despite the victory at the naval Battle of Trafalgar in 1805, it took another 10 years and Waterloo to finally defeat Napoleon. And as in a later war, it was the decimation of Napoleon's troops by Russia and the Russian winter in 1812 that broke his back militarily. He was first decisively defeated at Leipzig in 1813. Britain had a hand in the wars on the Iberian peninsula at the time (Portugal had been her last continental ally) which lasted from 1807 to 1814, but probably mostly in a support role. And at Waterloo it was the timely (or just in time) arrival of Blücher's Prussian forces that turned the tide.

The Napoleonic wars may actually be those reflecting the situation of the island Númenor against the continental dictator Sauron most closely. One big problem for Númenor: the Easterlings were Sauron's allies, not instrumental in his defeat.

It will always be difficult to compare actual "history" (much of what was written when writing first appeared was not quite what a modern historian might be interested in) with an Elven- and perhaps even Valar-abetted Númenor. Was the Old Kingdom of Egypt, or the first similar entities in Mesepotamia (rather city-states than kingdoms or empires?) a decline from Gondor, even with it, or even an advance? That Egyptian Old Kingdom would have risen about the year 1000 Fourth Age (3000 BC) if one takes JRRT's statement that the FA started about 6000 years ago "seriously". But then how far in Middle-earth did Sauron's control reach in the Second Age, or in the Third Age? He had a paltry 6000 plus years (so from "before" 10000 BC, right into the end of the Ice Age) to effect this. And let us not forget one thing: logistics support for armies was fiendishly difficult before the advent of motorized transport. I recently read something that during the Vietnam war, it took four sacks of rice to sustain a North Vietnamese logistics soldier on the way to South Vietnam and back via the "Ho Chi Minh Trail" - to deliver one sack of rice there ...


----------



## Aldarion (Dec 4, 2019)

That depends on the period. Early on, navy would have been dominant arm, but as colonies expanded in Middle Earth, ground forces would have gained importance, although navy would have continued to play an important role. We know that Sauron attacked Numenorean fortresses in their wars, which means that Numenor had significant land holdings, and land forces to defend them. Still, these fortresses likely were stationed on waterways and depended on the seaborne communications for reinforcement and resupply. Which is what you touch in with logistics, and I believe I mentoned it in the article: Numenorean navy was massive advantage because of logistics. Ships are much more efficient transport tool, especially pre-motorization, which means that Numenorean forces will have enjoyed significant mobility advantage over land-bound opponent.

Question is, why did Gondor abandon navy? All defences we hear about in War of the Ring are land-based. One factor I can think of is the cost, as maintaining warships is extremely expensive, and wooden fleet can literally rot away in just a few years without maintenance (happened to Byzantium...). Aragorn as Thorongil may have taken civilian ships for his assault on Umbar...


----------



## Olorgando (Dec 7, 2019)

Well, besides the size of Númenor (and I'm still surprised at Karen Wynn Fonstad's estimate of 168 000 square miles / 434 000 square kilometers), one has to take into consideration the original population at first settlement - and the Edain of the First Age must have been quite severely decimated - and rates of population growth.
One extreme is to be found in UT, "The Line of Elros", at which age the Kings became fathers:
Elros at 119, Vardamir Nólimon at 131, Tar-Amandil at 158, Tar-Elendil at close to 200 (JRRT self-contradicts here!), Tar-Meneldur at around 150, Tar-Aldarion at 173 ...
Of course the House of Elros was granted a vastly extended lifetime. But the nobility of whatever ranks must have also been allowed a sizeable boost, say at least into Dwarf territory, and the rank-and-file should have been able to top The Old Took by the odd decade, otherwise grumbling would have started much more quickly in Númenor (I realize this is all speculative ...). That does not really speak for a "population explosion" in Númenor, by current standards. What was the "statistical generation" in Númenor? This varies widely nowadays from country to country, topping 30 years for first childbirth (on average!) for a woman in some western countries. What was considered an "appropriate" family size in Númenor? Hardly The Old Took's 12 or Sam's 13 children. Into what kind of population growth per year did this translate into?
Kind of the same issues I have with Elendil, Isildur and Anárion escaping Númenor's destruction in a total of nine ships (4, 3, and 2) in 3319 SA, but are able to muster sizable forces to fight in the War of the Last Alliance leading to Sauron's (temporary) downfall only 122 years later in 3441 SA.
Especially for ground forces in Middle-earth, I would hypothesize that the Númenóreans (and later Gondorians and Arnorians) would have had to rely massively on Middle-earth "natives". But with the King's Party having been dominant in Númenor for about the last 1200 years of the Second Age, I don't really see the "natives" flocking to that banner - except in a "lesser of two evils" mindset compared to Sauron. Another uncertainty would be how many people Númenor could have, at any time spared to colonize M-e. Theoretically, with even the Elves feeling the quickening of things in M-e, the "expatriate" Númenóreans might have had a significantly higher population growth per year that did the mother island.

We may see some of this stuff in the Amazon fanfic, who knows?


----------



## Alcuin (Dec 7, 2019)

Aldarion said:


> …why did Gondor abandon navy? All defences we hear about in War of the Ring are land-based. One factor I can think of is the cost, as maintaining warships is extremely expensive, and wooden fleet can literally rot away in just a few years without maintenance (happened to Byzantium...). Aragorn as Thorongil may have taken civilian ships for his assault on Umbar...



I don’t think Gondor “abandoned” its navy. I think that following the Kin-strife and the defeat of Castamir the Usurper and his forces at the Battle the Crossings of Erui, the navy at Pelargir deserted to Umbar. Until then, Gondor was the dominant seapower of Middle-earth; after that, the dominant seapower was Umbar. No doubt Gondor slowly rebuilt some sort of fleet, but it seems that it was ever after a shadow of its former glory for the rest of the Third Age. 

I do think your assessment of Thorongil’s raid on Umbar is probably correct: He seems to have taken a small fleet of swift ships to Umbar and assailed them unawares. A large fleet of warships would have drawn too much attention, I think. Tolkien doesn’t say much about the raid in terms of detail: I take it that it took place, or at least began, at night, and that Umbar was not only unprepared, but probably believed Gondor in no position to launch such an audacious raid. 

It would make sense, however, that in order to maintain good order and expand the power and authority of the Reunited Kingdom, Aragorn would rebuild a proper navy to establish Gondor’s dominance of the coastlands once more.


----------



## Aldarion (Dec 8, 2019)

Olorgando said:


> Well, besides the size of Númenor (and I'm still surprised at Karen Wynn Fonstad's estimate of 168 000 square miles / 434 000 square kilometers), one has to take into consideration the original population at first settlement - and the Edain of the First Age must have been quite severely decimated - and rates of population growth.
> One extreme is to be found in UT, "The Line of Elros", at which age the Kings became fathers:
> Elros at 119, Vardamir Nólimon at 131, Tar-Amandil at 158, Tar-Elendil at close to 200 (JRRT self-contradicts here!), Tar-Meneldur at around 150, Tar-Aldarion at 173 ...
> Of course the House of Elros was granted a vastly extended lifetime. But the nobility of whatever ranks must have also been allowed a sizeable boost, say at least into Dwarf territory, and the rank-and-file should have been able to top The Old Took by the odd decade, otherwise grumbling would have started much more quickly in Númenor (I realize this is all speculative ...). That does not really speak for a "population explosion" in Númenor, by current standards. What was the "statistical generation" in Númenor? This varies widely nowadays from country to country, topping 30 years for first childbirth (on average!) for a woman in some western countries. What was considered an "appropriate" family size in Númenor? Hardly The Old Took's 12 or Sam's 13 children. Into what kind of population growth per year did this translate into?



Kings, as you noted, are not a good measure, seeing how they live 400 years on average (so for average Numenorean, you can halve these numbers). And we do not hear of any nobility other than direct relatives of House of Elros, or at least no indication of them having lifespan above those of average Numenorean.



> Kind of the same issues I have with Elendil, Isildur and Anárion escaping Númenor's destruction in a total of nine ships (4, 3, and 2) in 3319 SA, but are able to muster sizable forces to fight in the War of the Last Alliance leading to Sauron's (temporary) downfall only 122 years later in 3441 SA.
> Especially for ground forces in Middle-earth, I would hypothesize that the Númenóreans (and later Gondorians and Arnorians) would have had to rely massively on Middle-earth "natives". But with the King's Party having been dominant in Númenor for about the last 1200 years of the Second Age, I don't really see the "natives" flocking to that banner - except in a "lesser of two evils" mindset compared to Sauron. Another uncertainty would be how many people Númenor could have, at any time spared to colonize M-e. Theoretically, with even the Elves feeling the quickening of things in M-e, the "expatriate" Númenóreans might have had a significantly higher population growth per year that did the mother island.
> 
> We may see some of this stuff in the Amazon fanfic, who knows?



Actually, it was outright stated that there already were sizeable Numenorean settlements in Middle-Earth by the time Elendil came. In fact, Faithful had been fleeing to Northwest of Middle-Earth for centuries by that point, and there was already some settlement there from Tar-Aldarion's time. Extensive Numenorean colonization started around 1800 (so by then Numenor would have already capped out its population capacity). We also know of significant military forces being stationed in Middle-Earth by 1700, the time of Tar-Minastir's expedition. This may have been a simple forward deployment, but may also indicate presence of Numenorean colonies in Middle-Earth by that time.

I do however agree that Numenoreans did have significant native auxilliaries - I believe that _Unfinished Tales_, "Disaster of Gladden Fields", mentions how Numenoreans did not have cavalry of their own, but rather relied on native auxilliaries for the role. Much like Romans did during Republic and Principate.


----------



## Olorgando (Dec 8, 2019)

Aldarion said:


> Kings, as you noted, are not a good measure, seeing how they live 400 years on average (so for average Numenorean, you can halve these numbers). And we do not hear of any nobility other than direct relatives of House of Elros, or at least no indication of them having lifespan above those of average Numenorean.


There would have to have been some kind of nobility, to provide "appropriate" wives to the Númenórean Kings, otherwise they royal house would quickly have gone the way of the Spanish Habsburgs, who died out with the last of their kings, the childless Charles II, basically a "village idiot" in German terms due to incessant inbreeding with the Austrian branch.


----------



## Alcuin (Dec 9, 2019)

I wrote an essay on this some years ago, “Decline of the Lifespan of the Númenóreans”. Originally the Númenóreans had lives three times that of the Men of Middle-earth, about 210 years. The House of Eärendil – the royal house used the name of Elros’ father, likely because he did so himself, but also because (perhaps) it identified them with their “immortal” (from a human perspective) forebear – lived to about 400 years for many generations, until they rebelled against the Valar and thus ultimately against Eru. By the time of the Downfall of Númenor, the lifespan of the average Númenórean had decayed, though we are not told by how much; Ar-Gimilzôr lived to only 217 years, Tar-Palantír his elder son and heir to 220; and Ar-Pharazôn, the last king, assaulted Valinor and died at age 201, driven to his attack because he felt the approach of old age. The Lords of Andúnië, however, remained Faithful Númenóreans, and their lifespans did not decay so much: Elendil’s grandfather and great-grandfather both passed their 360th year, and Elendil himself died fighting Sauron aged 322, still possessed of great vigor and strength.

In Middle-earth, the Stewards lived from about 120 years under the Kings of the House of Anárion to about 100 years; Denethor II was born one year before Aragorn, and died aged 89 by his own hand. (Faramir lived to 120: like Aragorn, his lifespan seems to have been restored to something longer, more “normal” for Númenóreans of that time.) The Lords of Dol Amroth lived to their mid-120s under the Kings of the House of Anárion, but by the time of the War of the Ring lived to about 100. (See the companion essay, “The Lifespans of the Ruling Stewards of Gondor and the Lords of Dol Amroth”.)

Aragorn lived to age 210; his great-grandfather lived to age 155, about average for his immediate predecessors. (Aragorn’s father and grandfather were killed while fighting, his father by orcs, his grandfather by trolls.) Eldarion his son became succeeded his father when he was about aged 90 (assuming he was born around the year Fourth Age 30), and ruled at least 100 years, indicating an age of about 190. 

Two other items may be noteworthy in this respect. First, the Kings of Gondor lived somewhat longer than the Kings of Arnor and Arthedain: Aragorn seems to have enjoyed a lifespan as if he were a King of Gondor. Secondly, the lifespans of the Stewards and Lords of Dol Amroth shortened noticeably after the death of the White Tree of Minas Tirith in Third Age 2872 when the Steward Belecthor II died, though the decline is more noticeable among Belecthor’s descendents, the Stewards. 

Finally, we must mention Erendis, wife of Tar-Aldarion. Although the Númenóreans were a mix of the Third and First Houses of the Edain, along with the few survivors of Second House, the Third House dominated the Dúnedain; but Erendis and Elatan of Andúnië, who married Silmariën, daughter and eldest child of Tar-Elendil the fourth King, were mostly of the First House, and lived in the western part of Númenor. In “The Mariner’s Wife” in _Unfinished Tales_, it is explicitly mentioned that Erendis had a shorter expected lifespan than Aldarion, and he blamed this for what he perceived as her possessiveness and her objections to his long departures when he voyaged to Middle-earth even after taking the throne, and for the subsequent estrangement of the royal couple. He made a law in Númenor that the kings could marry only another descendent of Elros Tar-Minyatur, but this law was not strictly enforced until the lives of the rulers was not much different from that of the common folk of Númenor.


----------



## Aldarion (Dec 9, 2019)

Olorgando said:


> There would have to have been some kind of nobility, to provide "appropriate" wives to the Númenórean Kings, otherwise they royal house would quickly have gone the way of the Spanish Habsburgs, who died out with the last of their kings, the childless Charles II, basically a "village idiot" in German terms due to incessant inbreeding with the Austrian branch.



Not necessarily. And even if there were, there is no indication that they have longer-than-normal lifespans.
1) Closest thing to nobility we hear of are Lords of Andunie. Who have that status because they are related to the royal family.
2) It was noted that lifespans of Numenorean kings had been decreasing and were no more than those of average Numenorean when the law to marry within the royal family was finally passed. This indicates that only the royal family had unusual lifespans, and it is not clear whether marrying outside of it had any effect on the lifespan.

Numenor is not a feudal monarchy (and neither is Gondor, for that matter). Byzantine Emperors were not shy about marrying commoners: Justin I married Luppicina, a palace slave; Empress Theophano was a daughter of an inn keeper from Sparta; Emperor Theophilos chose his bride via a beauty contest (Miss Constantinople, essentially). Now, we do not know much about wives of Numenorean kings, but I do not think Erendis for example was nobility. I might be wrong about that, but regardless of whether she is nobility or not, she had - and was explicitly noted in the story as such - a normal Numenorean lifespan.


----------



## Olorgando (Dec 9, 2019)

Still, JRRT keeps quite mum on the topic of population totals in all of his works never mind population dynamics (and The Old Took and our dear old Sam and his Rosie were quite likely exceptional even for Hobbits). Aldarion, you did some calculations of possible sizes of armed forces in Middle-earth in another thread, and possible populations above. The big unknown remains, to my mind, where would Númenor / Gondor stand relative to say the Roman optimum of climate straddling the (retrospective) BC/AD divide by several centuries. Is Rome a decline from Gondor, so Gondorian numbers could be higher? Certainly there had been some dips in the hypothetical 4000 years from the beginning of the Fourth Age to 1 AD. There was a serious decline in European population after the fall of the Western Roman Empire, correlating with a worsening of climate and weather. Then the was the Middle Ages optimum straddling the year 1000 AD, then decline again with the onset of the "Little Ice Age" around 1300, with a severe blow caused by the Black Death starting 1348 (hitting a population already weakened by crop failures due to adverse, extreme weather conditions).
Gondor has some dips like that in the 3000 year of the Third Age, and a general decline, too. Wars, plagues, adverse weather, it's all there. Arnor, smaller, more thinly populated and with an early breakup of the Kingdom into three, was even more severely hit. It had also been at a disadvantage through being at latitudes that range up into the equivalent of Southern Scandinavia (or the Scottish Highlands). Without some fundamental changes, how would Aragorn and his heirs managed to turn the tide of the general decline?
_(If one takes "actual history" as a continuation, obviously the later generations flubbed it …_  _)_


----------



## Hisoka Morrow (Jun 16, 2020)

Alcuin said:


> Naval power and marine landings are crucial to the history of Second and Third Age Middle-earth, and there is ample reason to believe that this situation continued into the Fourth Age.
> 
> Before we discuss the strategy and tactics of naval and marine warfare, let’s discuss the means, specifically the ships that Tolkien seems to indicate were used.
> 
> ...


I beg your pardon for some doubts. If all Númenórean naval power were wiped out by the downfall, then that means all the colonies' garrisons had been transferred. Yet, the Númenórean won't just left their colonies defenseless so the Middle-Earth natives revolt will work like a piece of cake, unless Númenórean military is superior enough even their milita are tough enough to kick those Natives' regulars's asses.
In addition, the exiles can mobilize tens of thousands of regulars, though army units. Yet without enough naval military protection for the economic system like trade, the exiles can't afford the huge military costs, after all, the exiles armed forces are both sophisticated and large enough to storm Morodr back to the stone age. Yeah, the costs might be astrological.
In addition, Gondor is able to kick pirates' asses for several times even after the kin-strife. This means that Gondor naval military power is still powerful enough to maintain i'ts glory some.

One more certain thing is firepower must have taken a horribly important role in middle-earth naval warfare, at least in the 2nd age's Nmenorains, the battle of Galowth's ford is the best proof, otherwise Sauron could have stormed the little parts of the landing forces, or unless Numenorain marines were horribly bad asses that could fend off them till their follow-up forces arrived.


----------



## Alcuin (Jun 17, 2020)

Hisoka Morrow said:


> I beg your pardon for some doubts. If all Númenórean naval power were wiped out by the downfall, then that means all the colonies' garrisons had been transferred. Yet, the Númenórean won't just left their colonies defenseless so the Middle-Earth natives revolt will work like a piece of cake, unless Númenórean military is superior enough even their milita are tough enough to kick those Natives' regulars's asses.
> In addition, the exiles can mobilize tens of thousands of regulars, though army units. Yet without enough naval military protection for the economic system like trade, the exiles can't afford the huge military costs, after all, the exiles armed forces are both sophisticated and large enough to storm Morodr back to the stone age. Yeah, the costs might be astrological.
> In addition, Gondor is able to kick pirates' asses for several times even after the kin-strife. This means that Gondor naval military power is still powerful enough to maintain i'ts glory some.


Pardon extended: no problem.

During the reign of Ar-Pharazôn’s grandfather, Ar-Gimilzôr, the Faithful Dúnedain were compelled to remove from the westernmost province of Númenor, Andúnië, to the eastern capital province, Rómenna. By the time of Ar-Pharazôn, they were greatly outnumbered both in Númenor and in the Númenórean colonies in Middle-earth. After the Akallabêth, however, the situation in Middle-earth was reversed: the Faithful, who had been all but forced to emigrate from Númenor, outnumbered the surviving Kings’ Men in Middle-earth, at least in military power, particularly ships acrews, and armies. Sauron was unable to overcome them, though he had dominated the last several years of the Kingdom of Númenor: Elendil’s followers were more numerous, better organized, and better equipped. 

Tolkien indicates that a tsunami in Middle-earth accompanied the Downfall of Númenor. But Pelargir, the principal port of the Faithful, was actually on the Anduin, not on the seacoast: while it was affected by the tidal waves, it was not as severely struck as, say, Umbar or those harbors to the south along the coast that had heretofore been more important than Pelargir. That Elendil and his sons could rally themselves and, with the Elves, defeat Sauron and all his allies, which would include any remaining major forces of the Kings’ Men in Middle-earth, later known as the Black Númenóreans (_their_ king, Ar-Pharazôn, was lost, along with his vast Armada), indicate a vast shift in the balance of power in Middle-earth from the Kings’ faction of old Númenor to that of Elendil and the Faithful.

That’s not to say that the Black Númenóreans lost all their power, wealth, or prestige by any means! Tarannon Falastur, tenth King of Gondor and first of its four great Ship-kings, was the one that restored the military naval power of the Númenóreans. His sway reached far down the coasts and inland: his erstwhile bride, Queen Berúthiel, came from an inland city of Númenórean descent, so hers must have been a family prominent enough to cause him to seek a dynastic marriage between the House of Anárion and the Black Númenóreans: perhaps it was a cadet (minor) branch of the House of Eärendil (the royal house of Númenor). But the marriage of Falastur and Berúthiel failed miserably, and a century of warfare followed until the thirteenth King of Gondor, Ciryaher Hyarmendacil I, put down all resistance to the overlordship of Gondor among the southern descendents of the Dúnedain, the Black Númenóreans. It was another three hundred years before the sons of Castamir the Usurper fled Pelargir to Umbar with the Gondorian fleet that the folk of Harad once again had power to resist the incursions and dominion of Gondor over their affairs; and even at the end of the Third Age, Umbar and Harad proved dangerous enemies during the War of the Ring.

You should consider three things regarding the state of Middle-earth under Númenórean domination at the end of the Second Age.
Sauron _”surrendered”_ to Ar-Pharazôn of his own free will, as everyone in Middle-earth came to know. That gave him free transport to Númenor, where he could otherwise never have come.
After Sauron got control of Ar-Pharazôn’s councils, particularly after he set himself up as a god (Melkor-priest) with a temple and human sacrifice in Armenelos, there could no longer be any conflict between Sauron’s minions and the Kings’ Men in Middle-earth: they were on the same side! Their instructions would be, “Get along and don’t cause problems.” Anything else would draw Ar-Pharazôn’s attention from Sauron’s purposes. (What the “natives” did to the surviving Númenórean colonists after the Downfall is another matter altogether; but even then, as long as the Black Númenóreans did Sauron’s bidding, and they probably did, there was likely far less hostility than you might imagine.)
The Faithful had begun to emigrate to northern Middle-earth even before official oppression began against them in Númenor. Elendil and his nine ships of followers were the very last to leave the island: when they arrived in Middle-earth following the Downfall, they found a ready and willing group of loyal followers with an intact economy and social structure, an already-existing royal administration and bureaucracy they could inherit and lead, and probably _*the only remaining large, regular Númenórean military force remaining in Middle-earth,*_ the only one that had not sent sizable detachments (or gone entirely!) to Ar-Pharazôn’s invasion of Valinor.



Hisoka Morrow said:


> One more certain thing is firepower must have taken a horribly important role in middle-earth naval warfare, at least in the 2nd age's Nmenorains, the battle of Galowth's ford is the best proof, otherwise Sauron could have stormed the little parts of the landing forces, or unless Numenorain marines were horribly bad asses that could fend off them till their follow-up forces arrived.


I am not familiar with that. Is it in _Silmarillion_ perhaps?


----------



## Hisoka Morrow (Jun 17, 2020)

Alcuin said:


> I am not familiar with that. Is it in _Silmarillion_ perhaps?


OK, maybe only the _Silmarillion_ had recorded the War between for Sauron to retake his rings. = ='''. Anyway, we all already known that Numenorain must have used amphibious tactic to kick Sauron's ass, cause before the Numenorain reinforcement arrived, Sauron has already taken control of ground, unless the Numenorain land on places still hadn't lost, like Lindon and Grey Haven. Otherwise we all know Sun-Tzu has said armed forces crossing water are sticking ducks, at least in ancient ages when firepower support system is till premature.



Alcuin said:


> Pardon extended: no problem.
> 
> During the reign of Ar-Pharazôn’s grandfather, Ar-Gimilzôr, the Faithful Dúnedain were compelled to remove from the westernmost province of Númenor, Andúnië, to the eastern capital province, Rómenna. By the time of Ar-Pharazôn, they were greatly outnumbered both in Númenor and in the Númenórean colonies in Middle-earth. After the Akallabêth, however, the situation in Middle-earth was reversed: the Faithful, who had been all but forced to emigrate from Númenor, outnumbered the surviving Kings’ Men in Middle-earth, at least in military power, particularly ships acrews, and armies. Sauron was unable to overcome them, though he had dominated the last several years of the Kingdom of Númenor: Elendil’s followers were more numerous, better organized, and better equipped.
> 
> ...


Hmm....I'm just wondering the Faithful's diplomatic status with the natives. At least even after the Numenorian begun to corrupt, the faithfuls were supposed to maintain their kind rule over the natives(Toikein only mentioned the Kin's men faction started tyrannical policy to the natives). 
And unless Sauron just did as you said about ceasing the conflicts between the Numenorians and the natives by religion methods , it's still too impossible that the natives betray the Faithfuls in total. Yet those king's men had already changed their religion far before Sauron's surrender.
So what do you think?Could the King's men still maintain some garrisons to handle the faithfuls, and even maybe their natives alliance?


----------



## Olorgando (Jun 17, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> Alcuin said:
> 
> 
> > For ancient sea battles, there is no lack of descriptions. Looking only at Western world history with which most of us are familiar, we can begin with the Sea Peoples of ancient notoriety, who brought down what remained of the Minoan civilization after the eruption of Thera; raided the Hittite kingdoms, perhaps including Troy in the famed Trojan War if the Achaeans are identical to or part of the Sea Peoples; the Philistines; and most notably their raids on ancient Egypt beginning near the end of the reign of Ramses II.
> ...


*sigh*
Never did get around to that PM. Guess I'll try at a compressed version here.
Downfall of Minoan civilization: Knossos was the last of the city-states to fall, in 1450 BC. It fell to an Achaean or Mycenaean invasion at least two centuries before the "Trojan" War. The eruption of Thera was at least a century before the fall of Knossos, perhaps even two, and archaeological evidence shows that it must have been the odd order of magnitude smaller than the currently popular view of it having been at least like Krakatoa in 1883, That piece of modern mythology was perpetrated by a Greek archaeologist (but very definitely *not* volcanologist) with a serious megalomaniac streak, Spiridon Marinatos.
That the Achaeans were part of the Sea Peoples seems quite plausible, but another part would probably have been peoples of the "Anatolian Alliance" led by Troy in the imprecisely termed "Trojan" War. Troy was probably the lead city of this anti-Achaean alliance, and perhaps the last to fall.
At any rate, the Sea peoples could at most have done damage to Hittite outposts or vassals on the Mediterranean coast. The destruction of the Hittite capital of Hattusa way vastly beyond their means (the Hittites were in the main a land power, the Sea Peoples pretty much entirely a maritime one). The destruction of Hattusa was far more likely "achieved" by the Kaskians, who settled north of Hattusa, a region never conquered by the Hittites. The Kaskians proved troublesome to the Hittites during the entire duration of the latter's empire (which had a hiatus between Old and New Kingdoms), and when the Hittites had become sufficiently weakened during the "Trojan" War / Sea Peoples conflicts, probably managed to finally destroy Hattusa (though likely with help from allies).
And last, the Ramses who was involved with Sea Peoples trouble must have been Ramses III rather than II, the former being considered the last great monarch of the New Kingdom in Egypt, of the 20th dynasty (Ramses II belonged to the 19th dynasty).


----------



## Alcuin (Jun 17, 2020)

Hisoka Morrow said:


> OK, maybe only the Silmarillion had recorded the War between for Sauron to retake his rings. = ='''. Anyway, we all already known that Numenorain must have used amphibious tactic to kick Sauron's ass, cause before the Numenorain reinforcement arrived, Sauron has already taken control of ground, unless the Numenorain land on places still hadn't lost, like Lindon and Grey Haven. Otherwise we all know Sun-Tzu has said armed forces crossing water are sticking ducks, at least in ancient ages when firepower support system is till premature.


I think you’ve confused the order of the Númenórean expeditionary force sent to support Gil-galad during the War of the Elves and Sauron. A small contingent was sent to Lindon, where it helped Gil-galad and Círdan hold Sauron’s army at Sarn Ford (the same Sarn Ford in what was later Southfarthing in the Shire) to forestall an invasion of Lindon after Sauron swept through Eregion, killing Celebrimbor and much of the populace there, seizing the Nine and at least six of the Seven Rings of Power, and forcing Elrond, who had been sent by Gil-galad along with a small force from Lindon to strengthen Eregion, to retreat to a valley in the Misty Mountains where he founded Rivendell. (The Elven-smiths who reforged Andúril were probably originally from Eregion.)

In the meantime, the main force of Númenóreans landed at the mouth of the River Gwathló at the defended Númenórean port of Vinyalondë, which at the time was already nearly 1000 years old. (By the end of the Third Age, the long-abandoned ruins of Vinyalondë were known as Lond Daer Enedh.) They came upon Sauron’s army from behind while Gil-galad and Círdan with the smaller Númenórean force held Sarn Ford against Sauron, smashed into Sauron’s rear, destroyed most of his army, routed the rest, and pursued Sauron and what remained of his bodyguard almost back to Mordor. (There was no Gondor or Arnor in those days.)

And since you seem to be interested in roll-playing or strategy games, Númenórean armies in the Second Age were famed (and dreaded!) for their archers.




Hisoka Morrow said:


> Hmm....I'm just wondering the Faithful's diplomatic status with the natives. At least even after the Numenorian begun to corrupt, the faithfuls were supposed to maintain their kind rule over the natives(Toikein only mentioned the Kin's men faction started tyrannical policy to the natives).
> 
> And unless Sauron just did as you said about ceasing the conflicts between the Numenorians and the natives by religion methods , it's still too impossible that the natives betray the Faithfuls in total. Yet those king's men had already changed their religion far before Sauron's surrender.
> 
> So what do you think?Could the King's men still maintain some garrisons to handle the faithfuls, and even maybe their natives alliance?


I would not assume the “natives” had poor relations with the Faithful Númenóreans, the Dúnedain, near their kingdoms. The Men of the Vale of Anduin and the Rhovanions were distant kinsfolk; the people of Eriador, whose descendents included the Men of Bree, had been in contact with the Númenóreans since their first voyage back to Middle-earth around the year Second Age 600. The principal foes of Elendil and his sons were the Black Númenóreans (Kings’ Men), the folk of Harad (probably a mixture of Black Númenóreans and local folk), Easterners (in the Third Age, Balchoth and Wainriders are specifically named, but I suspect there were others early on), and the realm of Khand east and south of Mordor. Umbar, the nearest major power to Gondor, fell under Gondor’s sway off and on during the Third Age. In addition, however, were the ancestors of the Dunlendings, descendents of kinsmen of the Second House of the Edain, who lived in the great forests of western Middle-earth that the Númenóreans cut down to build their massive fleets of ships: these people became quite hostile toward the Númenóreans, their distant kinsmen, because the Dúnedain destroyed their homes, and the Dúnedain responded toward them in kind.

I think that’s a reasonable summary of what we have from Tolkien.



Olorgando said:


> That the Achaeans were part of the Sea Peoples seems quite plausible, but another part would probably have been peoples of the "Anatolian Alliance" led by Troy in the imprecisely termed "Trojan" War. Troy was probably the lead city of this anti-Achaean alliance, and perhaps the last to fall.
> 
> At any rate, the Sea peoples could at most have done damage to Hittite outposts or vassals on the Mediterranean coast. The destruction of the Hittite capital of Hattusa way vastly beyond their means (the Hittites were in the main a land power, the Sea Peoples pretty much entirely a maritime one). The destruction of Hattusa was far more likely "achieved" by the Kaskians, who settled north of Hattusa, a region never conquered by the Hittites. The Kaskians proved troublesome to the Hittites during the entire duration of the latter's empire (which had a hiatus between Old and New Kingdoms), and when the Hittites had become sufficiently weakened during the "Trojan" War / Sea Peoples conflicts, probably managed to finally destroy Hattusa (though likely with help from allies).
> 
> And last, the Ramses who was involved with Sea Peoples trouble must have been Ramses III rather than II, the former being considered the last great monarch of the New Kingdom in Egypt, of the 20th dynasty (Ramses II belonged to the 19th dynasty).


This is part of the Bronze Age Collapse in the twelfth century BC. It took down the Hittite Kingdom, wiped out the Mycenaeans, upended the kingdoms of the Levant, and ended the period called the New Kingdom of Egypt (“New” as opposed to the “Old” and “Middle” kingdoms of Egypt). What caused the Bronze Age Collapse is still up for hot debate, I think, though there is a lot of work being done on it. I had not heard the Kaskian hypothesis before.

I have heard that the king of Troy wrote the Hittite king, his overlord, to complain that he was under siege by folk who had come in numerous ships and invaded his beaches. The name associated with that Trojan king was not Priam, however, nor did he receive help from his Hittite allies, who were otherwise occupied with troubles of their own.


----------



## Hisoka Morrow (Jun 19, 2020)

Alcuin said:


> I think you’ve confused the order of the Númenórean expeditionary force sent to support Gil-galad during the War of the Elves and Sauron. A small contingent was sent to Lindon, where it helped Gil-galad and Círdan hold Sauron’s army at Sarn Ford (the same Sarn Ford in what was later Southfarthing in the Shire) to forestall an invasion of Lindon after Sauron swept through Eregion, killing Celebrimbor and much of the populace there, seizing the Nine and at least six of the Seven Rings of Power, and forcing Elrond, who had been sent by Gil-galad along with a small force from Lindon to strengthen Eregion, to retreat to a valley in the Misty Mountains where he founded Rivendell. (The Elven-smiths who reforged Andúril were probably originally from Eregion.)
> 
> In the meantime, the main force of Númenóreans landed at the mouth of the River Gwathló at the defended Númenórean port of Vinyalondë, which at the time was already nearly 1000 years old. (By the end of the Third Age, the long-abandoned ruins of Vinyalondë were known as Lond Daer Enedh.) They came upon Sauron’s army from behind while Gil-galad and Círdan with the smaller Númenórean force held Sarn Ford against Sauron, smashed into Sauron’s rear, destroyed most of his army, routed the rest, and pursued Sauron and what remained of his bodyguard almost back to Mordor. (There was no Gondor or Arnor in those days.)
> 
> ...


I see^^ So strictly speaking the Numenorian won the battle of Galowth by maneuver from Sauron's ass instead of full-frontal amphibious assualt.^^ About the diplomatic situation between Numenorain and the"natives", I think I'll start a new title for there're too many questions among it.
For examples, if there're really natives tribes join the Black Numenorian side, that means the Black Numenorian must have used the so-called "use enemies fight enemies" strategy on on their natives policy, cause Toikein had mentioned Black Numenorian still treated natives badly like even using Harad people as human sacrifice to worship Morgoth. Of course it'll be another result if the Harad or these natives are willing to be so such as to be human sacrifice due to religious reasons.
In addition, if Sauron really want to seduce the natives to join the Black Numenorains, why didn't the Faithfuls do anything to screw Sauron's plot. Yeah, after all, the Faithfuls and the so-called anti-Numenorain natives were allies in the first places. 
Will you think that those latter anti-Faithfuls natives like Easterlings(apart from special one like Dunlendains) were just some puppets states?^^
I think may I'll launch a new title about diplomatic situation between ME natives and Numenorian^^ Cause I think it takes a long story to discuss XD


----------

