# Nazgul and the 9 Rings



## Mablung (Jan 6, 2003)

If the 9 rings of men were destroyed while the One Ring was still intact and all else was in place would the Nazgul still retain their power?


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## gate7ole (Jan 9, 2003)

We don't know for certain, but my instinct says that the 9 rings were necessary for the Nazgul to maintain a link with the world of the living. Without this link, they would enter the world of shadow forever and wouldn't be able to communicate with the others (so bear swords, talk, do any harm). Of course, since the ring-lore hasn't been preserved, we can't know if Sauron had the ability to keep his servants with the living only with the Ruling Ring.


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## HLGStrider (Feb 22, 2006)

Doesn't it say somewhere that Sauron holds the nine? Or am I just pulling that from thin air because I'm bored?


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## Urambo Tauro (Feb 22, 2006)

I think you're right....


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## Thorondor_ (Feb 23, 2006)

> Doesn't it say somewhere that Sauron holds the nine?


Yes, several times:


The mirror of Galadriel said:


> You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine





The hunt for the ring said:


> At length he resolved that no others would serve him in this case but his mightiest servants, the Ringwraiths, who had no will but his own, being each utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved him, which Sauron held.


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## Annaheru (Feb 23, 2006)

Yes, but what about Gandalf's words at the council of Elrond: "The Nine the Nazgul keep."?

I don't think the Nazgul could have endured being parted from their rings for a long time (just as everyone who encountered the One had trouble laying it aside). In that case it, Sauron's "holding" of the rings would be understood in a metaphysical sense, ie the rings (and by extension those individuals they had enslaved) were so bound to Sauron's will that they were totally bound to his command even when they were seperated from him.

Part of my thinking is based on the fact that Akallabeth mentions Sauron setting aside his Ring, but no others when he went to Numenor, so if he didn't have the nine then, and didn't have the nine when Gilgalad/Elendil fought him on the mountain, I don't see him retaining physical possession at any other time.


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## Thorondor_ (Feb 23, 2006)

Further proof:


Letter #246 said:


> I do not think they [the nazgul] could have attacked him with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor commands of his that did not interfere with their errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills.


and again from UT:


> They [the nazgul] were by far the most powerful of his servants, and the most suitable for such a mission, since they were entirely enslaved to their Nine Rings, which he now himself held


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## Withywindle (Feb 23, 2006)

Annaheru said:


> Part of my thinking is based on the fact that Akallabeth mentions Sauron setting aside his Ring, but no others when he went to Numenor, so if he didn't have the nine then, and didn't have the nine when Gilgalad/Elendil fought him on the mountain, I don't see him retaining physical possession at any other time.


 
I think we must assume that in the Second Age, as Sauron wore the One he didn´t need to hold the Nine as the One gave him absolute control. It was after his resurgence in the Third Age that he took posession of the Nine "The Nine he has gathered to himself" says Gandalf to Frodo and the use of the Present Perfect tense suggets it is relatively recent. Presumably, Sauron felt he needed to hold the Nine himself in order to ensure control over the Nazgul, until he should recover the One.

Clearly then, the Nazgul were primarily dependent on their Rings. The Master Ring allowed Sauron to impose his will on them, but it did not give them life or power. I think then that the Nazgul would have pretty well vanished if their Rings were destroyed - by that I mean become some evil phantom, but with no real power, and perhaps with time disappear altogether.


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## Noldor_returned (Feb 25, 2006)

As further proof that the Nazgul hold their Rings (but are still under the dominion of Sauron), Frodo saw the Witch-king with his on when he was attacked at Weathertop. By the way, who were the men that received the Rings?


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## Thorondor_ (Feb 25, 2006)

Ok, moreover:


The shadow of the past said:


> So it is now: the Nine he has gathered to himself; the Seven also, or else they are destroyed. The Three are hidden still.





> Frodo saw the Witch-king with his on when he was attacked at Weathertop.


I didn't find that refference in the final paragraphs of A knife in the dark; perhaps you could give a quote?


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## Noldor_returned (Feb 25, 2006)

I'm not good at finding quotes...takes me a while. Although I don't think it says it in a Knife in the Dark. It might be in the Appendices or UT, maybe even Sil, where the Ringwraiths keep their Rings.

And does anyone know which men are the wraiths?


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## Wraithguard (Feb 25, 2006)

Noldor_returned said:


> And does anyone know which men are the wraiths?


 
To my knowledge (which has deteriorated) the names of the nine kings are never given. Some beleive (I disagree) that the Third Age Gothmog is a Nazgûl but there isn't any information to back that up either.


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## HLGStrider (Feb 26, 2006)

Unless you count "The Witch King of Angmar" to be a name, they simply don't have names credited to them by Tolkien. We know three are "Black Numenoreans."


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## Thorondor_ (Feb 26, 2006)

Only one of them is named, in UT:


The hunt for the ring said:


> Now at that time the Chieftain of the Ringwraiths dwelt in Minas Morgul with six companions, while the second to the Chief, Khamûl the Shadow of the East, abode in Dol Guldur as Sauron's lieutenant, with one other as his messenger


And according to Akallabeth, only 3 Ringwraiths were numenoreans:


> Yet Sauron was ever guileful, and it is said that among those whom he ensnared with the Nine Rings three were great lords of Numenorean race


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## Wraithguard (Feb 26, 2006)

True. So we can at least Identify two of them: The Witch King and Khamûl. As for the others there was a fansite (I cannot remember which) that developed names for them and they stuck but nothing official.


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## wizard2c (Feb 26, 2006)

As indicated in The Lord of the Rings and Philosophy:
"The Black Riders, the Narzul who wear the nine Rings given to the human race of men , have exerted their collective wills to force him "Frodo" to put on the Ring. So here we see that Frodo does choose to put on the Ring--unlike the accident at Bree--but his choice is not free choice; it is a result of compulsion, the psychological power of other ring-bearers on the One Ring."


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## Noldor_returned (Feb 27, 2006)

Sort of. I think I get what you're saying. As for the Numenoreans, would they be one of those governor people of a section, or just anyone.
I think Gothmog being a wraith is a little insane, as he was killed and isn't a man.


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## Thorondor_ (Feb 27, 2006)

> I think Gothmog being a wraith is a little insane, as he was killed and isn't a man.


There is a refference to "Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul" in The battle of the Pelennor Fields chapter.


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## Noldor_returned (Feb 28, 2006)

Yes, but he isn't a Ringwraith, that's for sure.


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## Withywindle (Feb 28, 2006)

I always took for granted "Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul" was a Nazgul. After all, Morgul is the City of the Ringwraiths, so it seems likely that second in command there after the Morgul King would be another wraith. Certainly, the command of the battle being given to a Uruk as portrayed in the film is to be completely disregarded.


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## Annaheru (Feb 28, 2006)

Actually, I had always thought he was an orc- just because while the Witch King led the assault Tolkien constantly uses the phrase "but it was no brigand or orc-chieftain that led the assault . . .", and after his fall we see Gothmog (without any such line) send in the reserves to get slaughtered which seemed in keeping with orc tactics to me. It had always seemed like a significant contrast.

I had always imagined that the Nazgul were still flying around in the sky (except for the one that flew back to Mordor). 

Considering that Shagrat was giving command of a castle, I don't think we can rule out an orc as lieutenant.

Really, we don't have information either way, neither option has anything in particular to endorse it, and neither has any damning evidence against it.


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## Noldor_returned (Feb 28, 2006)

I have a feeling I read somewhere that the Witch-king was in command of the Battle of the Pelennor, but I could easily be wrong. I'll have to go looking for that quote.


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## HLGStrider (Feb 28, 2006)

He was. . . then he died. . . then he wasn't.


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## Wraithguard (Feb 28, 2006)

> Gothmog - The Lieutenant of Minas Morgul and commander of Sauron's army during the Battle of the Pellenor Fields after the fall of the Lord fo the Nazgûl.
> ~TWFA-Z pg. 218


 
Besides, as we've already agreed upon, the second in command to the Witch King is Khamûl.


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## Noldor_returned (Mar 1, 2006)

So we've identified three of the Nazgul- Witch-king, Khamul, Gothmog. There is also possibly 3 Numenoreans, which leaves three others.


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## HLGStrider (Mar 1, 2006)

> _Now at that time the Chieftain of the Ringwraiths dwelt in Minas Morgul with six companions, while the second to the Chief, Khamûl the Shadow of the East, abode in Dol Guldur as Sauron's lieutenant, with one other as his messenger_


 


> Besides, as we've already agreed upon, the second in command to the Witch King is Khamûl.


 
I don't think we have a consensus, though I feel pretty nuetral about what the heck Gothmog was. In my first read through he was just a big, bad dude with no lines so I didn't take the time to pull my mind away from the more interesting events to consider his heritage. The name never struck me as particularly "nazgully" though.

However, that said, I don't think the above quotes rule out that Gothmog was both the second in command of _Morgul_ and a Nazgul. It does state that Khamul is the second Nazgul but it also states that he is in charge of _Dol Guldur _and so there would probably be a second lieutenant to look after Morgul itself when Witch King was elsewhere and Khamul was still busy up north. Now, whether or not this second was a Nazgul or not isn't stated and I don't think there is anyway to be sure.



> So we've identified three of the Nazgul- Witch-king, Khamul, Gothmog. There is also possibly 3 Numenoreans, which leaves three others.


 
I thought I should point out that it is probable (in fact it might actually be stated somewhere) that one of the Numenoreans WAS the Witch King, so that still leaves four.


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## Noldor_returned (Mar 1, 2006)

Fair enough, but I'm fairly sure that Khamul was second in command. I think I read it in UT.


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## Thorondor_ (Mar 1, 2006)

I agree with NR; beside the previous quote I gave concerning Khamul, he is called again "the Second Chief (black easterling)" in the notes to the Hunt for the ring, in refference to a rejected version.


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## Noldor_returned (Mar 1, 2006)

As for those other 3 or four, could they possibly be Haradrim? After all, they were working for Sauron, and to make them help him, he might have given their king or chieftain and a few other popular people rings, and taken their life. Then he could have promised to return their guys back when he had control over Middle-Earth, and only if they help him? Then, being the deceiver he is, wipes them out too. Sounds plausible, doesn't it?


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## Wraithguard (Mar 2, 2006)

We must not rule out the option of other Easterlings either. I do not believe that Gothmog was a Nazgûl but I'm not inconvincable. Let's try breaking down what we already know. The Witch King is Nùmenorian and Khamûl is an Easterling. We're not quite sure about Gothmog yet. What about the people of Eorl?


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## Noldor_returned (Mar 3, 2006)

I doubt it. Although they may or may not have had dealings with Mordor, I don't think their time frame fits. Speaking of which, when were the 9 made and when were they handed out? I can't remember.


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## Annaheru (Mar 3, 2006)

The Nine, the Seven and the Three were made by the elven smiths of Eregion (Celebrimbor made the 3, sort of what you'd expect from Feanor's grandson-- not exactly sure if the makers of the 7 and 9 are specifically stated). 

After Sauron made the One, he claimed all the elvish rings because his knowledge had been instrumental in their creation. He fought a war, and destroyed Eregion, and laying hold on the 7 and 9. These he handed out throughout the rest of the 2nd age.


It's pure speculation but since he gave 3 ring to the Numenoreans (west) why not 3 to the east, and 3 to the south?


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## Thorondor_ (Mar 3, 2006)

> Speaking of which, when were the 9 made and when were they handed out?


Cf The tale of Years, RotK, all the rings were made between 1500 and 1590.

In 1967 Eregion is taken by Sauron and as late as 2251, the nazgul appear; anywhere between these two years, the distribution of the rings could have occured (though rather sooner than later, seeing that the rings take a while to corrupt, and the nazgul were previously powerful warriors/sorcerrors).


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## Wraithguard (Mar 3, 2006)

Good point Annaheru. There were nine rings and only three directions in which man dwelt. To the north were Dwarves and vile Elves followed by the Ered Engrin, leaving only 3 directions. So perhaps if we do throw Gothmog in as a Nazgûl we can assume him to be the highest Haradrim-wraith. Khamûl is the highest Easterling-wraith and the Witch King is the highest Nùmenorian-wraith so why not?


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## Noldor_returned (Mar 4, 2006)

Wraithguard, you make a good point. That would leave (if my calculations are correct) 2 from each of these races. I think Sauron could have chosen anyone, and this would have affected less people. Although, if he wanted already strong or powerful people, why not go a military person high up? Or a tactician/advisor to the king of each region. This would also give him an advantage by knowing some of the secrets of each land. Does it say anywhere in HOME about a major Numenorean dissapearing at any time, or wouldn't it matter to them? They would most likely make up some story of them going crazy, and leaving, not thinking that they were working for Sauron.
However, doesn't someone (Aragorn or Gandalf) say in FotR that they were once kings? So maybe the rings were handed out over three generations, to each different king? And if Sauron asked the Haradrim (unlikely Numenoreans would say yes to him) and the Easterlings whether they wanted to be more powerful than their enemies, would they voluntarily take the Rings and use them to attack foes?


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## HLGStrider (Mar 4, 2006)

The only sure place I remember the "great kings of men" line is the movie, I'm afraid, but I think it is in there. 

We will have to assume that they were kings of "city state" type situations which may very well have existed in plenty in times of chaos.


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## Wraithguard (Mar 4, 2006)

Correct. So possibly we have three great kings: Khamûl, Gothmog, and the Witch King, and six lords of some sort, two from each race.



> Originally Men, three of them Black Nùmenorians,the Nazgûl were each given one of the Nine Rings by Sauron in the Second Age... ~TWFA-Z


 
So perhaps the three Nùmenorians had already been corrupted and were merely convinced to take the rings in the same manner as the other six.


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## Noldor_returned (Mar 5, 2006)

Assuming they are Black Numenoreans, is it possible the Mouth of Sauron is descended from one of them? If, before they became a wraith, a female was brought to them, and they did their business, then it continued on etc? He may feel it in his bones that he must be of service. I think we should read the chapter in UT or the Sil, which goes into detail about the Nazgul, in case of any underlying clues. I'm not sure, but it may say something about each of their origins.


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## HLGStrider (Mar 6, 2006)

It's possible, I suppose, but a bit unlikely. I do think it is probable they do have descendants running around because they were obviously men for awhile and powerful men who probably would have wanted some heirs, but having the mouth be one of such just doesn't feel like Tolkien to me.


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## Sangahyando (Mar 7, 2006)

Are we told of the fate of Ar-Pharazon the Golden? Perhaps, although its a long shot, Ar-Pharazon was a Nazgul, possibly the Witch-King? I mean considering the largest assembly of Men for war was made by Ar-Pharazon, does that cross out the fact that Sauron the Deceiver, Gorthaur the Cruel may very well have chosen his 'greatest servant' perhaps being Ar-Pharazon because of his construction of the 'Great Armament'? The Akallabeth doesn't tell us of the fate of Ar-Pharazon himself for Sauron may have saved him. 



Sangahyando, great-grandson of Castamir the Usurper


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## Noldor_returned (Mar 7, 2006)

Interesting point, although I thought it did say all perished, save those who fled the island or were living in Middle-Earth? Otherwise, the answer would be no. Unless of course, it's one of those Tolkien things, where he died, but didn't really die because he was a Nazgul?
Then again, it's even more unlikely, because then Sauron would have had a Nazgul in the first War of the Ring, and I'm sure there would have been mention of that if he did.


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## HLGStrider (Mar 7, 2006)

Somehow I thought Ar-Pharazon was one of those condemned to the Caves of the Forgotten to wait until the last battle. My phrasing is off because I don't have my books, or am I confusing my kings?


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## Thorondor_ (Mar 7, 2006)

> Are we told of the fate of Ar-Pharazon the Golden?


Yes:


Akallabeth said:


> But Ar-Pharazon the King and the mortal warriors that had set foot upon the land of Aman were buried under falling hills: there it is said that they lie imprisoned in the Caves of the Forgotten, until the Last Battle and the Day of Doom.


 .


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## HLGStrider (Mar 7, 2006)

_But Ar-Pharazon the King and the mortal warriors that had set foot upon the land of Aman were buried under falling hills: there it is said that they lie imprisoned in the *Caves* of the Forgotten, until the Last Battle and the Day of Doom._
http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?t=14457

So, no Ar-Pharazon couldn't be the witch king.


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## Noldor_returned (Mar 7, 2006)

The name Witch-king implies that he had some sort of special powers, I think. Why else would he be called a witch? So Sauron saw his potential, recruited him and he had what used to be some sort of Witch-doctor thing. However, the transformation into the wraith world caused the Witch-king to lose his powers. These are all just theories and guesses.
Then again, his name might have come from the powers a Nazgul had, and been first used by his armies in Angmar. Something similar to Sharkey/Saruman, and the name was used in reverence by the common warriors. Then the name stuck. Once again, all just guesses and theories.

So what does this mean? I doubt the actual identity of the Witch-king will be revealed, unless something that I've forgotten about Angmar is in UT, Sil, LOTR appendixes or HOME (I've never read HOME, and does anyone know where I can get a copy?).


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## HLGStrider (Mar 7, 2006)

I always assumed 'Witch King" was a title earned after he was Wraithized. I don't know if there is any proof of this, however, and as they had the 9 Rings prior to being Wraithized, the rings could have given them power that would have been considered "witchcraft" by those unaware of its true source.


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## Thorondor_ (Mar 8, 2006)

The Council of Elrond said:


> A great king and sorcerer he was of old, and now he wields a deadly fear


And in HoME & The treason of Isengard, he is called the greatest wizard of Men:


> Then my heart failed for a moment; for the Chief of the Nine was of old the greatest of all the wizards of Men, and I have no ' power to withstand the Nine Riders when he leads them


that is, if we interpret "of old" as meaning before the nazgul-event .


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## Noldor_returned (Mar 9, 2006)

If he was a king, who was he king of? We agreed it isn't Ar-Pharazon (buried in those cave thingys), but who else? As fas as I remember, no other king went missing, and details of their deaths are given. So maybe he assumed the title king, although he had no right to.


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## HLGStrider (Mar 9, 2006)

Like I said, I doubt we are talking of a direct king of Numenor/Gondor or even Rohan/Dale. 

Even before the destruction of the isle, Numenor had colonies on the main land of Middle Earth. Some of these probably had a great deal of independence. In the aftermath of the sinking of the isle, I imagine many former lords took upon themselves the title king and ruled as such. As they were Numenorean, a longer lifespan probably went at first unnoticed, especially if attributed to a certain amount of "witch craft" their power from the rings might have afforded them. 

Now, we don't exactly know what happened to these kings before they were Wraithized (directly before), and it is possible that it may have even seemed to their people that they were dying (If you take Frodo's symptoms as typical, I imagine a certain amount of weariness/aging like symptoms would have proceded the final leap into the wraith world. As the rings would have been a secret, any number of stories could have developed to explain when a king simply wasn't their any longer, anything from stolen bodies, to madness, to being snatched away by evil forces.). If the nine were from different cultures and assuming that not all of them faded at the same rate, the distance (time and space wise) between each incident was probably enough that no one saw a pattern. 

Anyway, despite the "supremacy" if you will, of the Numenorean royal line, there are other kings/kingdoms that seem to have a level of soveriegnty (my spelling stinks today) in their own right. Some of these (Dol Amroth) have pure or even purer Numenorean blood to the direct, Elendillian line. It is even mentioned that Bard of Laketown had some Numenorean blood, isn't it? In the Hobbit? Or is that just a reference to his relation to the kings of Dale absent of Numenorean lineship?

Anyway, the point being that there were probably several different Numenorean kings at one point or another within Middle Earth, more than enough to explain three of these disappearing without too much panic.


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## Noldor_returned (Mar 10, 2006)

Well it's possible the Witch-king was from Dale, as not much history is given into their origins. Sauron might choose someone, if the land had been established when he travelled to the dwarves to give them their rings. The only problems are, if Dale was set up in the right time frame, and if he gave the dwarven rings to them at the Lonely Mountain.


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## Wraithguard (Mar 10, 2006)

I highly doubt that the Witch King was from Dale. Perhaps the Nazgûl were not kings of origin but perhaps given lordship after their corruption?


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## HLGStrider (Mar 10, 2006)

I just used Dale as a reference to prove there are other kingly lines that it could have drawn off of.

WG's suggestion is also valid, though.


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## Wraithguard (Mar 10, 2006)

It seems logical. After all you wouldn't want to just pluck a couple mighty kings like Tar-Minastir or or Ar-Gimilzôr to become your corrupt minions.


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## Valandil (Mar 11, 2006)

*Brief History Lesson:*

OK - I hate to do geeky/nerdy on you, but it's what I do best.  

First of all, remember that the Nazgul first appeared over 1000 years before the sinking of Numenor - which rules out Ar-Pharzon and anyone else around that time. The Dwarves did not establish Erebor until about 2000 years into the Third Age - over 3000 years after the Wraiths appeared and over 3500 years after Sauron gave the rings to Dwarves and Men. I don't recall right now whether or not Dale was established before Erebor, or whether we're told.

I'm sure there were many other kingdoms to choose from. I think it most probable that Sauron gave the rings to Men who were kings already. There could have been many forgotten kingdoms on the lands that are familiar to us in their configurations of 5000 years later.

We are told that three of the nine were Numenoreans of noble birth. I know some who take that so far as to think that a King of Numenor WAS ensnared, although I disagree with it. For interest's sake though, one particular version of the theory is that it was Tar-Ciryatan - for he would have been old enough to receive a ring (and could have accompanied his father, Tar-Minastir) - and that he actually slew and replaced his son and also ruled Numenor in his son's stead as Tar-Atanamir. Then - once he fully became a Wraith, he drifted off to Mordor and was followed by Tar-Ancalimon. Sounds far-fetched I know, but get this: Tar-Atanamir dies in 2221 SA, according to "The Line of Elros" in UT. In LOTR Appendix B, the Ringwraiths first appear in 2221 SA. 'Coincidence?' my friends will ask. The App B account also shows Tar-Atanamir taking the scepter in 2221, but as I understand it, that was an error on JRRT's part, according to his son Christopher. Hmmm... 'Freudian slip' on JRRT's part?... was he just thinking 'successor to Tar-Ciryatan'??   

Anyway - as I said, I'm not at all convinced. I think there would have been plenty of Numenorean nobles ruling part of Middle Earth as governors of Numenor - and acting as nominal 'kings' in their areas of control. (note - no 'aftermath of flood' because again, the Wraiths appeared over 1000 years before it) Very possibly some royal cousins or nephews, but I doubt a King of Numenor. Still, there's 2221...

I also think that at the time the Wraiths appeared, it might have been evident who those Wraiths had been. However, that knowledge was either lost to time (and the destruction to follow - who knows, Sauron might have had them wipe out their old kingdoms early on) - or else not revealed to the halfling chroniclers who passed along to us the information we have.

Thorondor is right about the HoME account. I do not possess that book, but as I understand it from other discussions, it sounds like there was an earlier concept that Tolkien had of the Ring-Wraiths. Something like that they had all been part of an order of Wizards - were all or mostly Numenorean - and that Gandalf was one of them, but betrayed them by turning 'good'. In that version, Gandalf was a Man of Numenor, not a Maia. Is that essentially correct, Thorondor?


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## Ingwë (Apr 12, 2006)

Very interesting! I have always thought that the Witch King was a King of Angmar but it seems that I was wrong. I thought that Angmar is a Kingdom of Evil people, servants of Sauron and the Witch-King was their leader so Sauron gave him a Ring. But it is not so. 
The Nazgul appear in SA 2251. In the Tale of the Years we find that in TA c.1300 (what does ‘c’ mean?) The Nazgul reappear. The Chief of these comes north to Angmar. The Chief is the Witch-King. He established the Witch-realm of Angmar long after receiving his Ring. So he had other kingdom before Angmar, maybe in the East or in South??? 
And another opinion… Some of the Nazgul are Black Numenoreans, other are not, but they all are evil  What if they weren’t kings of their people but brothers, uncles, relatives to the real kings? Sauron needed people like that. Maybe he deceived them by promising the throne? 

And about Sauron and the Nine Rings… and Sauron holding something… Does he have a physical form to hold anything? Wasn’t he a spirit who wanted a physical form but didn’t have it? How can he hold something in the real world…? The real Arda  

Torondor, it seems that there are different quotes that show different things. Once Tolkien says that Sauron holds the Nine Rings, but Gandalf says that the Nine the Nazgul keep. Personally I think that physically the Nine Rings were held by the Nazgul. However, the words ‘the Nazgul keep’ may be interpreted. The Ringwraiths may keep them in Mordor. It is difficult with the word ‘keep’ to Bulgarian, keeping in mind that it may be translated in several ways in my language… Keep doesn’t mean ‘wear’ so the Nazgul may keep these Rings with other articles in a tower in Mordor. 

_“If the 9 rings of men were destroyed while the One Ring was still intact and all else was in place would the Nazgul still retain their power?”_
I think that the Nazgul would retain their power. Frodo wore the One Ring for a moment, he was pierced by the Nazgul and his spirit started moving to the Realm of Shadows. While he wore the One Ring he saw the things of the Realm of Shadows, then he started fading and he put down the Ring but he continued moving to the Shadows. That process has already started and it couldn’t be stopped so easily. The Nazgul wore their Rings for a while and they faded until they became Spirits, Ringwraiths, Shadows under the Great Shadow. I mean that if once the process starts, it cannot be stopped, you become a shadow with or without the lesser Rings of Power. But without the One Ring the Nazgul died J
The chief Ring is Sauron’s and while it exist the others’ powers will exist. The One Ring was created to control the other Rings of Power, it contains the power of the other Rings. The Difference is that the other Rings Sauron gave to his servants, but the One Ring he kept for himself. I mean that:
THE ONE RING = Nine Rings + Seven Rings + more power

The problem is that there isn’t something created by the Seven Rings that exist. The fact that it exists would mean that the things don’t need the lesser Rings while we have the One. 


About the names...:
names of nine ringwraiths 
Names....?? 
Names Of The Nazgul 
Nazgul Names


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## Noldor_returned (Oct 3, 2006)

Well, recently I finished TTT again, and this passage stuck out:


> [Faramir] '...The valley of Minas Morgul passed into evil very long ago, and it was a menace and a dread while the banished Enemy dwelt yet far away...As you know, that city was once a strong place, proud and fair, Minas Ithil, the twin sister of our own city. But it was taken by fell men whom the Enemy in his first strength had dominated, and who wandered homeless and masterless after his fall. It is said that their lords were men of Numenor who had fallen into dark wickedness; to them the Enemy had given rings of power, and he had devoured them: living ghosts they were become, terrible and evil. After his going they took Minas Ithil and dwelt there, and they filled it, and all the valley about, with decay: it seemed empty and was not so, for a shapeless fear lived within the ruined walls. Nine Lords there were, and after the return of their Master, which they aided and prepard in secret, they grew strong again. Then the Nine Riders issued forth from the gates of horror, and we could not withstand them...'


 
I can't believe none of us picked up on it before. There is little doubt Faramir would be wrong, seeing as a record would be kept of when lords of places died/went missing.

From what it sounds like, the Nine were Numenorean lords, but Minas Ithil was taken by a group of men that served Sauron. This would mean it was before the first downfall of Sauron. In fact, the earliest reference to them in the Tale of Years is:


> 2251 Tar-Atanamir takes the sceptre. Rebellion and division of the Numenoreans begins. About this time the Nazgul or Ringwraiths, slaves of the Nine Rings, first appear.


 
This comes after:


> c. 1800 From about this time onward the Numenoreans begin to establish dominions on the coasts. Sauron extends his power eastwards. The shadow falls on Numenor.


 
So sometime in the second age, between 1800 and 2251, Sauron gave the Nine Rings out. The Numenoreans were building settlements, so that would most likely require a lord of some sort, just to "ensure they are doing everything right" and to rule over the villagers. It wouldn't be too difficult for Sauron to kidnap them. He only needs nine, and 451 years is enough time.

This time frame also rules out who can and can't be Nazgul. The people of Eorl for one, and any peoples that didn't exist before the first overthrowing.

Later, in the Tale of Years, in the Third Age, it has:


> 1980 The Witch-king comes to Mordor, and there gathers the Nazgul...
> 
> 2000 The Nazgul issue from Mordor and besiege Minas Ithil.
> 
> 2002 Fall of Minas Ithil, afterwards known as Minas Morgul. The palantir is captured...


 
So basically, in these 2000 years, a small populous emerged and took an entire building/city. There, Nine spirits ruled over them in the name of Sauron. The question is, were all Nine Numenoreans. 

At no point did Faramir say whether they were all Numenoreans, but he hinted that they were. So, Khamul the Black Easterling is one of the Nazgul, but what of the others? It seems they were, since their lords came from Numenor. Then again, Faramir would have no definite evidence.


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