# What the hell are Balrogs?



## StriderX (Feb 26, 2002)

I am reading the LotR right now and I am currently on the RotK. I have never once heard anything about Balrogs. Did I miss something? What exactly are they?


----------



## Bill the Pony (Feb 26, 2002)

Yes. Go back to FOTR. (Or watch the movie). They are pretty bad guys who may or may not have wings.


----------



## Gothmog (Feb 26, 2002)

> Yet so great was the power of his uprising that in ages forgotten he contended with Manwë and all the Valar, and through long years in Arda held dominion over most of the lands of the Earth. But he was not alone. for of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror.


 From the Silmarillion.



The Balrogs were Ainur fire spirits who were drawn to Melkor in the begining. They appeared as creatures of Fire and Shadow. They cloacked themselves in darkness which made it difficult to see what they looked like and they spread terror before amongst their enemies.

And apart from all that the answer is "ME"


----------



## Beleg Strongbow (Feb 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Gothmog _
> * From the Silmarillion.
> 
> 
> ...














that is eaxtcly right.


----------



## StriderX (Feb 26, 2002)

That helps a lot. Thanks. Now I remember hearing of them in the Fellowship.


----------



## Nocturno (Feb 26, 2002)

But did they have wings? Nooooooooooooooooo!    

But seriously, you'll need to really go to the Silmarillion to understand the whole thing on Melkor, the Ainur, the Valar, etc. I believe even the name of Morgoth is rarely mentioned in the LOTR.


----------



## Beleg Strongbow (Feb 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Nocturno _
> *But did they have wings? Nooooooooooooooooo!
> 
> But seriously, you'll need to really go to the Silmarillion to understand the whole thing on Melkor, the Ainur, the Valar, etc. I believe even the name of Morgoth is rarely mentioned in the LOTR. *




yeah there are heaps of threads which you can use


----------



## Úlairi (Feb 27, 2002)

That is right, they are fallen fire Ainur (Maiar) drawn into the service of Morgoth. Do you suppose they were as great as Arien (Maia of Fire, the MAIA who made the sun?)?


----------



## Morgaphry (Feb 27, 2002)

*BALROGS HAVE WINGS!!!!!!!*

Why can't anyone seem to grasp the truth that Balrogs have wings!
There are numerous references to their wings in FotR and the Appendices.


----------



## Forgotten Path (Feb 27, 2002)

If Balrogs had wings, when Gandalf cast the Balrog into the abyss, why didn't it just fly right back up? Maybe their like peguins.(Waddle, Waddle )


----------



## UngattTrunn475 (Feb 27, 2002)

I think you better go back and read the fellowship and the two towers. If you missed the Balrog parts, you probably missed other parts too.


----------



## Nocturno (Feb 27, 2002)

Oh, c'mon! The wing thing again?   

I would rather take on the comparison between other Maiar: were the Balrogs as powerful as Sauron? Could maybe two of them be a match for him?


----------



## Gothmog (Feb 27, 2002)

*Re: BALROGS HAVE WINGS!!!!!!!*



> _Originally posted by Morgaphry _
> *Why can't anyone seem to grasp the truth that Balrogs have wings!
> There are numerous references to their wings in FotR and the Appendices. *



Well why don't you be the next one to try to prove that I have wings.


----------



## Nocturno (Feb 27, 2002)

The being looked pretty confused and anxious as he approached the bright presence of Eru Ilúvatar.

- "What is troubling thou, my son?"

- "Oh high lord, I'm blinded by your holy sight, and grateful as am I of being allowed to come to you before being thrown into the darkness again, still a burning question eats into my soul"

- "Askest thou, for everything is beautiful at the eyes of Ilúvatar, even the black shadow that sorrounds thee, and that bright whip of flame thou holdeth in thy hands"

- Ages have come and gone, eternity has been but as a second to me and yet I still cannot answer this riddle.

- What may be troubling thou that much?

The Balrog made an effort to overcome his fear and owe, and finnaly burst it out.

- Eru, Ilúvatar, high and mighty above all.
Is it true that I have wings or not? For people see them and I can almost feel them, but others deny it and they are gone like a shadow or a bad dream.

Ilúvatar smiled and answered:

- My son, so misguided that thou cannot look yourself in the mirror of a clear stream to find out! Ask thyself this:
Does it really matter?
Gothmog, my son, thou are so dead, for so long that who would really care?
Come, cheer up and let us sing a song. I've been working on some new ideas since you all left, and my second born have issued so many new rythms, like rock'n roll, and a thing called rap...
Who knows what kind of world can we create with that?

Gothmog's jaw opened so wide that the whole universe seemed to fit inside...


----------



## chrysophalax (Feb 28, 2002)

Bravo Nocturno!
Magnificent style!My scales are green with envy!


----------



## Mina Pitcher (Mar 6, 2002)

*Bill the stupid pony...*

It says quite clearly in 'The bridge of Kazad-dum...


> and its wings were spread from wall to wall.


 There. See?


----------



## Forgotten Path (Mar 6, 2002)

Okay, I admit defeat! They *DO* have wings, but I still don't understand why it didn't fly out of the abyss. Maybe an effect of Gandalf's spell?


----------



## Mormegil (Mar 6, 2002)

Balrogs don't have wings. It's as simple as that.


----------



## Nocturno (Mar 6, 2002)

*Angels on the head of a pin*

In the middle ages, well after the fall of Rome, the italian cities fought cruelly between each other, the Roman-German empire fought fruitlessly to consolidate itself, the Bizantine empire struggled to maintain its shrinking and hole-filled borders.
Cities were razed, statues, libraries, art, people were completely destroyed everyday.
You know what the main discussion was in those times?
How many angels could stand on the head of a pin.
Endless arguments and estimations, constant recurrence to the scriptures and wars over which text was aprocrif or not.
The point is not whether they should be discussing that or not. One can discuss everything.
The point is centuries passed and they NEVER were able to build consensus on it.
Does it remind you of anything?


----------



## Nocturno (Mar 6, 2002)

Oh, one more thing.
I like politician's jargon some times. They invented the phrase:
"At this point we agree on disagreeing on the subject"
Isn't it beautiful?


----------



## Gothmog (Mar 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Nocturno _
> *The being looked pretty confused and anxious as he approached the bright presence of Eru Ilúvatar.
> 
> - "What is troubling thou, my son?"
> ...



Pray tell why would my jaw open so wide at an answer to a question I would never ask?

There is no need to ask of something I already know the answer to.

And as for 'who would really care?' It would seem you for one.


----------



## Tarien (Mar 10, 2002)

Balrogs DO have wings! 

______________________________________________
And the wings spread from wall to wall.
______________________________________________

P.S. He, sorry IT couldn't fly back up because Mithrandir (I'm an Elf) was fighting it!

Din! All Balrogs-Don't-Have-Wings-Idiots! Din!Din!Din!


----------



## Chymaera (Mar 11, 2002)

Nocturno is entirely correct.

There is a solution to this problem if you can accept some compromise.

Some Balrogs have wings and some Balrogs do and if they do they don't neccessaly(sp) work.


----------



## Gothmog (Mar 12, 2002)

Chymaera

The answer is even simpler than that. All Balrogs are the same, it is the view of the reader that changes. Therefore to some readers Balrogs have wings to others (myself for one) they do not. So there is no need for a compromise, only for a little thought.

What makes some posters views incorrect is not that they think that Balrogs have wings, It is that they post stating that their view is correct and must be accepted as true. When this happens I dissagree and have yet to be proved wrong.


----------



## Lantarion (Mar 12, 2002)

Balrogs do not have wings: they can spread their strange, ethereal essense about so it looks like they have wings, but I'm not sure if they can use them or not. Probably not. When you people (esp. newbies) think about 'wings', you obviously think "Big leathery arms and muscles with a drape over them". What you must remember is that Balrogs were not 'physical', in the sense of skin and bones. They were made of shadows and fire! The only reason Gandalf could tackle the big brute was because they were both Maiar and they could fight both in the Seen and the Unseen worlds.


----------



## Tarien (Apr 3, 2002)

Yet the valaraukar still had physical form, and the cloud and form were mentioned seperately. But here's something:

*It was the shape of a man, with a huge cloud of smoke and ash about it.*

Ponder it as you will.


----------



## Taran (Apr 3, 2002)

at first I thought Balrogs didn't have wings...why not fly away from the abyss? but overwhelming evidence (e.g. quotations from The Lord of the Rings and the Sil, which were both by the inventor of Balrogs) has convinced me that they do.


----------



## Anduril (Apr 3, 2002)

About the Balrog leit-motiv:

I hope you enjoy the reading...

Regards.


----------



## Úlairi (Apr 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Tarien _
> *Balrogs DO have wings!
> 
> ______________________________________________
> ...



I agree with Tarien. However, I remember reading somewhere that the wings of the Balrog were of shadow and perhaps were of no real use to the Balrog simply because of this. The dodo is an extinct bird which had wings, but could not fly, which is perhaps the same reason the Balrog couldn't do the same.


----------



## DGoeij (Apr 4, 2002)

If you're giving quotes, there's plenty more where that came from:

Quote from LOTR, The Bridge of Khazad-Dum:
His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out LIKE two vast wings. (capitals added)
(end quote)

So did he spread wings, or did he spread the shadowy thingies LIKE two vast wings?
Hard to be sure, there's plenty of earlier threads, I'd say use the search option and find out all about it.


----------



## Lantarion (Apr 4, 2002)

Ulairi:


> The Dodo is an extinct bird which had wings, but could not fly, which is perhaps the same reason the Balrog couldn't do the same.


Yes, but I don't think the Spanish invaders were quite as intimidated by the small, white, fluffy things at the Dodo's sides, than if they would have been enormous, 40-foot fingers or wings of shadow and fire!


----------



## korhall (Apr 4, 2002)

what is a balrog? 

Fun on Wheels, he babysits for my sister on saturday night


----------



## korhall (Apr 4, 2002)

*said with an irish accent* "he's a panzy, a stupid, pathetic, weak, (shadow comes up behind him) silly (korhall turns around), *weakly and scared* smart, handsom, a good citizen...mother!"


----------



## Úlairi (Apr 5, 2002)

Pontifex, stop being so nitpicky. I used an example which was not to the scale of the size of the wings. The opinion was that the Balrogs had wings, but they couldn't fly.


----------



## DGoeij (Apr 5, 2002)

Sheesh, the guy made a joke. 
And picture a Balrog as you like, but there's no evidence that clearly states wether the one in Moria had or hadn't wings, nor any of the others. 
I agree they would look better with than without wings.


----------



## Úlairi (Apr 5, 2002)

DGoeij, I was also 'making a joke'. Don't be so quick as to accuse someone without consulting them about it in the future.


----------



## DGoeij (Apr 5, 2002)

Well, I missed your point. I didn't accuse you. It looked so darn serious I felt the need to respond, sorry.


----------



## Úlairi (Apr 5, 2002)

You're forgiven DGoeij!


----------



## Tarien (Apr 5, 2002)

Does it honestly MATTER if the wings worked? In this instance they did not. Nor did they in GONDOLIN. I didn't see the Balrog (you people insist on using English) Glorfindel killed rinsing back up.


----------



## Úlairi (Apr 6, 2002)

No, not its physical form, but its disembodied spirit would have risen up and would have been borne on a dark wind.


----------



## Istar (Apr 6, 2002)

I think Balrogs had working wings. I offer an explination about why the one at Khazad-dum could not fly from the abyss.
Many large birds, dinosaurs, and even dragons as I imagine them needed a tailwind and/or a sufficiently long runway to take off. The Balrog simply stalled as it fell and could not generate any lift. Of course, being creatures of shadow and fire, who really cares about the laws of physics?

Istar of Science


----------



## Úlairi (Apr 6, 2002)

Good point but quite a few birds do not need a sudden updraft of wind, large birds such as eagles, and the Balrog was more than a large bird I assure you.


----------



## Dain Ironfoot (Apr 6, 2002)

so smart!!!!


----------



## Úlairi (Apr 6, 2002)

Thankyou Dain.


----------



## Dain Ironfoot (Apr 6, 2002)

no problem, i give credit were credit is due!!!


----------



## Úlairi (Apr 6, 2002)

Very kind, compliments are the icing on the cake in a persons life and I feel so special!


----------



## Dain Ironfoot (Apr 6, 2002)

The answer is only important if you ask the right question............... sorry I just thought with all the wise sayings.....


----------



## Úlairi (Apr 6, 2002)

That's perfectly fine Dain, cliches are a great part of the English language.


----------



## Dain Ironfoot (Apr 6, 2002)

thanks!!!!!!!


----------



## Úlairi (Apr 6, 2002)

No problem.


----------



## Dain Ironfoot (Apr 6, 2002)

here was go all over again!!!!


----------



## Úlairi (Apr 8, 2002)

Yep.


----------



## Lantarion (Apr 8, 2002)

OK, can we stop with the 1-sentence personal comments?! 
If you want to chat send PMs or go to IRC or something.


----------



## Úlairi (Apr 9, 2002)

Pontifex, if someone was complimenting you, you'd do the same. It is obvious that you are jealous of the comment Dain made about *me* and not *you*!


----------



## Anduril (Apr 9, 2002)

Kids...shall we continue with the discussion?
Pleeeease...


----------



## Lantarion (Apr 9, 2002)

Hmph. I'm not jealous, I'm _not_! *sits around moping for the rest of the day*
 LOL


----------



## Cian (Apr 9, 2002)

What's the discussion about again ... oh yeah, we were discussing the JRR Tolkien quote:

_"Over the land there lies a long shadow,
westward reaching wings of darkness."_

At least I think that was it


----------



## Dain Ironfoot (Apr 9, 2002)

I think it was just a medefor.....


----------



## Úlairi (Apr 10, 2002)

Metaphore Dain, get it right!


----------



## Úlairi (Apr 10, 2002)

Poor Pontifex! LOL!


----------

