# What if Isildur had not died?



## Inderjit S (Dec 14, 2004)

I know some of you may find these 'what if' scenarios a bit tepid, but this is still an interesting one and is taken from my post from a previous thread. What if Isildur was not attacked by Orks, or what if he managed to escape? Would that have changed the fate of Middle-Earth? The biggest point here would be the Ring-would he have given it to the Elves, and would they have taken it? Would Arnor or Gondor have been the hegemon? Would the high-kingship have stood more ground of Isildur remained alive-would his successors have remained high-king, or would Gondor seek autonomy? I will post my original post here; 



> Which is kind of ironic, given that Isildur's eldest son was said to resemble Aragorn in mood and looks. But I wonder what would have happened if Isildur had not been killed-would he have given the ring to the three and would they have accepted it? Given that the subsequent few centuries following the downthrow of Sauron were a time of peace then I wonder what the relationship would have been between Arnor and Gondor-would Arnor had been the hegemon and would this have stifled Gondor's rapid development? Isildur would have held a higher position as high-king than a young boy-would this have led to a different relationship between the two?


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## Valandil (Dec 14, 2004)

Well... if he had KEPT the Ring, I'd say his life would have been stretched out and he would have eventually become a new Dark Lord of the North... to be contested by Sauron when he arose, or by the Istari, when they arrived. Arnor probably would have been laid waste. If he had actively worked to keep Gondor under his sway (he had the Ring, after all) - it probably would have fallen into ruin as well... if he had kept his focus on Eriador... Gondor may have slipped away and stood to contest him while it could...

A rather grim outcome, I think.

If he had somehow managed to actually GIVE the One Ring to Elrond... and if Elrond had dutifully taken it to Mount Doom to cast it into the fire (sealing Sauron's destruction), Isildur would have felt a great burden lifted, he would have gathered his queen and his sons and returned to Annuminas to live out his days in joy and peace. His sons would have been married to fine ladies of the realm, and would work to increase the strength of Arnor - and to give Isildur grandchildren in his old age. In subsequent years, the heirs of Elendur and Meneldil would have worked to secure all the western regions of Middle Earth under the joint, beneficient rule of Arnor and Gondor, while the Elves all passed into the West, their own rings deprived of their power - 3,000 years sooner than they did in the stories.

And I, Valandil, would have been just an extra prince, fourth son of a great High King... less than a footnote perhaps, rather than the ancestor of Aragorn.  

But we all would have lived happily ever after!


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## Arvedui (Dec 15, 2004)

Isildur is said to have intended to give the Ring to the wise. If he would have been able to do so when the time came is another matter.
If he had kept it, then I believe that Valandil is right: He would have become a Dark Lord of the North. At least for a time. But he would probably also have passed more and more over to the wraith-world, I think. In the end, Sauron would have retaken the Ring, and "all the lands would be covered in a second darkness."

I am not sure if Elrond would have taken the Ring personally. I think that he understood how dangerous it was. The Quest to destroy the Ring would have been carried out, but by some of his people, probably. Someone that wasn't too powerful.

If the Ring had been destroyed, and all lived "happily ever after," then for a while the high-kingship would have rested in Arnor. But eventually Gondor would have become more and more autonomous. And there would also have been other autonomous parts popping up.
Evil would not have been destroyed, so I believe that it is only fair to say that there would have been wars. Especially against the people to the south and east.


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## aragil (Dec 15, 2004)

What part of the dissolution of Arnor (into Arthedain, Rhudaur, and Cardolan) is attributable to the continued presence of the Ring, and which part was just good ol' quarreling amongst heirs?


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## Valandil (Dec 15, 2004)

aragil said:


> What part of the dissolution of Arnor (into Arthedain, Rhudaur, and Cardolan) is attributable to the continued presence of the Ring, and which part was just good ol' quarreling amongst heirs?



I would guess entirely the latter... once read an interesting essay on it. 

But remember... in THIS case, we're talking a whole different set of heirs... descendants of Elendur, rather than Valandil. Whole different realm of possibilities.

And... there would be an odd dragon or giant spider to disrupt the peace and harmony of Middle-earth... as well as one sleepy-eyed Balrog!


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## aragil (Dec 16, 2004)

Exactly. I don't think Middle-earth without Sauron (or Morgoth) would exactly be utopian. I think it would be a lot like our world, which makes up for the lack of incarnations of evil with plenty of folks like bin Laden and Milosovich (amongst others).
Tolkien seems to hint that this is the case with "The New Shadow" in PoME. But perhaps I'm getting ahead of Inderjit's question. Are we just re-writing third age history, or ME history in general, through the 4th age and beyond?


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## Confusticated (Dec 16, 2004)

I don't think Isildur would have been able to give the Ring over to the elves, and I don't think he would only mind Arnor. He would begin to use the Ring and this would hasten the return of Sauron. Just about the time Isildur was becoming a real tyrant Sauron would come back and whoop him and wipe out the armies of the Dunedain and the elves so that one he got his ring back there would be no defeating him again.

Of course any number of amazing chances could have happen to prevent this, and I do believe something would have come up. Perhaps Elrond or an Istar would have suspected something and somehow snuck the Ring (maybe the Ring would like to get into a wizard's hands) from Isildur and later lost it, or it may have become lost by some other means, and then found by a hobbit .


And yes, it would be good for men to have the occasional dragon or balrog coming at them, or they would just make enemies of themselves all the more faster. I belive this was one of the biggest problems for the Numenoreans. JRRT writes in (letter 131?) according to my interpretation and memory, that the long life of the Numenoreans was a factor in their falling back under the shadow by way of aiding in their achievments which caused them to have more desire to enjoy these for longer. From this it follows that constant peace would have the same effect, I think.

And Aragil, I think it was in a note with The New Shadow that Tolkien writes about Men becoming bored with peace?d


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## Ithrynluin (Dec 16, 2004)

Nóm said:


> Just about the time Isildur was becoming a real tyrant Sauron would come back and whoop him and wipe out the armies of the Dunedain and the elves so that one he got his ring back there would be no defeating him again.



Sauron's armies were decimated after the Battle of the Last Alliance. Could Sauron really rally a great enough army in secret, without the ringéd Isildur finding out? Not a sure bet, I reckon.



> And Aragil, I think it was in a note with The New Shadow that Tolkien writes about Men becoming bored with peace?d



It's been quite a while since I read the New Shadow (and it'll be quite a while still, not too fond of it!), but the Letters boast something on that topic:



> _Letters #256 From a letter to Colin Bailey 13 May 1964_
> [An account of Tolkien's unfinished story 'The New Shadow'. (See also no. 338.)]
> I did begin a story placed about 100 years after the Downfall [of Mordor], but it proved both sinister and depressing. Since we are dealing with Men it is inevitable that we should be concerned with the most regrettable feature of their nature: their quick satiety with good. So that the people of Gondor in times of peace, justice and prosperity, would become discontented and restless – while the dynasts descended from Aragorn would become just kings and governors – like Denethor or worse. I found that even so early there was an outcrop of revolutionary plots, about a centre of secret Satanistic religion; while Gondorian boys were playing at being Orcs and going round doing damage. I could have written a 'thriller' about the plot and its discovery and overthrow – but it would be just that. Not worth doing.





> _Letter #338 From a letter to Fr. Douglas Carter 6[?] June 1972_
> I have written nothing beyond the first few years of the Fourth Age. (Except the beginning of a tale supposed to refer to the end of the reign of Eldaron about 100 years after the death of Aragorn. Then I of course discovered that the King's Peace would contain no tales worth recounting; and his wars would have little interest after the overthrow of Sauron; but that almost certainly a restlessness would appear about then, owing to the (it seems) inevitable boredom of Men with the good: there would be secret societies practising dark cults, and 'orc-cults' among adolescents.)


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## Ingwë (Dec 17, 2004)

If he had`t died, I think he will be "captured" by the ring like the Nazguls. Sauron will take the ring and the dark will came. That`s why Isildur had died and the ring had been lost for thousants of years


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