# NAMED BALROGS



## Ent (Jul 1, 2022)

In this Forum's WIKI under Balrogs, I find 3 of them "named".
Gothmog, Durin's Bane, and Lungorthin.
In all my researches in the written Lore and other materials, I have not yet run into the name Lungorthin.
Most sources say only 2 are named, with Durin's Bane really being a moniker rather than a real name.
Can someone help me locate where Lungorthin is found please? Important for my current writing on Balrogs.
Thank you.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jul 1, 2022)

Note 4 at the bottom of the wiki is a hotlink to this:









Was Lungorthin the first lord of the balrogs?


Lungorthin is mentioned in The History of Middle-earth 3, The Lays of Beleriand: and he's called the Lord of the Balrogs, but we also know Gothmog was blessed with this title as well. Chris Tolkien




scifi.stackexchange.com


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## Ent (Jul 1, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Note 4 at the bottom of the wiki is a hotlink to this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


DOH. Thank you.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jul 1, 2022)

Whether that's "canon" would be a subjective judgement.


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## JPMaximilian (Jul 1, 2022)

L Ray Hedberg said:


> In this Forum's WIKI under Balrogs, I find 3 of them "named".
> Gothmog, Durin's Bane, and Lungorthin.
> In all my researches in the written Lore and other materials, I have not yet run into the name Lungorthin.
> Most sources say only 2 are named, with Durin's Bane really being a moniker rather than a real name.
> ...


I agree that "Durin's Bane" is a moniker rather than a true name. Similar to how "Isildur's Bane" isn't really the name of that ring, in contrast to The Three: Narya, Nenya, and Vilya.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Jul 2, 2022)

JPMaximilian said:


> I agree that "Durin's Bane" is a moniker rather than a true name. Similar to how "Isildur's Bane" isn't really the name of that ring, in contrast to The Three: Narya, Nenya, and Vilya.


Yeah. Durin's Bane is not a real name. This is a cool thread. I have certainly heard of Gothmog, and I have heard the name Lungorthin, but very little is known of him if I remember right.

(is it really a _him_? It is a Maiar, so wha?)


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## Ent (Jul 2, 2022)

Here's what I've written, as much to myself as to others, at this point in time... for addition to my background for Balrogs.
-----------------------------------
July 1, 2022

So out from the electronic woodwork sprang – “*LUNGORTHIN, *Lord of Balrogs“ – written in a Wiki I did not know quite what to expect from at the time I was introducing myself to it.

There it was. A 3rd Balrog having a “name”?! One I’d not encountered before. (SO fun being a relative ‘newbie’ to the broader Lore.)

My research to date had indicated only the usual 2 better known Balrogs had ever been mentioned by a “name” (though one is really a moniker). Incomplete input, once again.

Spending some brief but quality time in _Lays of Beleriand: Children of Húrin, _followed by more time in _Lays of Beleriand: Túrin son of Húrin & Glorund the Dragon_ which was written earlier, I discover this:

- In discussing the same event—Húrin bound and talking with Morgoth after battle in which all his (Húrin's) forces were slain—in _Lays of Beleriand: Children of Húrin_, “*LUNGORTHIN*, Lord of Balrogs” is he who brings Morgoth to smile, when he strikes Húrin on the mouth for talking back to Morgoth boldly. But in _Lays of Beleriand: Túrin son of Húrin & Glorund the Dragon,_ it is “*a thane of Morgoth*” who does the striking. These, therefore are the same entity.

Following this, the book _The_ _Children of Húrin _was consulted, seeking to clarify and see if any more information was available regarding this new Balrog, Alas, even the incident itself is not mentioned at all.

My own research confirms what I had also read elsewhere: we find *Lungorthin* named ONLY ONCE - there in _Lays of Beleriand: Children of Húrin_ - in all the Legendarium (as revealed to me thus far.)

Some speculate *Lungorthin*, "Lord of Balrogs" is also *Gothmog*, "Lord of Balrogs" (Unfinished Tales), because of the title, while others (including Christopher Tolkien) feel the title given for *Lungorthin* is more to be understood as “a Balrog Lord”, the two of them being separate entities.

Difficult to discern, is it not? 
On the one hand, the title is a bit hard to discount.
On the other, if *Lungorthin* was a "thane*" this is a lesser role and title, making "a Balrog Lord" quite apt. *Gothmog* however is also "high-captain of Angband" - and though also a "thane*" (though by definition, not by mention in writing), certainly bearing a more lofty epithet!

*thane -
- In Anglo-Saxon England, one who held land/power granted by the king or by a military nobleman, ranking between an ordinary freeman and a hereditary noble.
- In Scotland-one, often the chief of a clan, who held land/power from a Scottish king and ranked with an earl's son:

So for now, I personally conclude: 
1) the two are different Balrogs, and;
2) - "a thane" *Lungorthin* (not "the thane" Lungorthin - an important difference Tolkien would likely not have missed) - is inferior in rank, role and power to *Gothmog*.

What I have NOT seen speculated elsewhere (yet) is this:
- We know not all Balrogs were slain, (some fled and hid)
- We do not know if Lungorthin was slain. We know nothing about him after this one mention.
- We do know Gothmog was slain before Durin's Bane was awakened at Moria.
- We know Durin’s Bane certainly had the power to withstand Olórin (Gandalf), an Istari, for quite some time…and even cause Olórin’s (temporary) ending in his current form and place, to be sent back later. (His death, as it were.)

Can a mere Balrog do this, or would it take a thane, at the least?
SO: Is it just possible that Lungorthin and Durin’s Bane are the same Balrog?
Durin’s Bane’s true name is unknown to us. (It could be that Gandalf knew of course, but he does not reveal anything about it.)

Though I do not really prefer to add speculation unto speculation, it’s a thought that crossed my mind. Lungorthin = Durin's Bane?!

I wonder if it’s been discussed before, where, and by whom. Time will tell. I would like to see the discussions should they exist. Though like all the other 'unknowns', we will never have the "solution". Mercifully, Tolkien has not provided us everything...else what would we continue to discuss?

It has been such a fun bit of research thus far and added more for my “Balrogs” essay (soon to be completed one hopes), later to be put into verse in some form…

My guess is all the Tolkien world knows all this already. I just remain excited about these new “finds” unfolding before me as I journey along.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Jul 3, 2022)

L Ray Hedberg said:


> Here's what I've written, as much to myself as to others, at this point in time... for addition to my background for Balrogs.
> -----------------------------------
> July 1, 2022
> 
> ...


This is incredible. I love all the depth. 

I have heard that Balrogs gain strength over time, and I believe I have read it somewhere. The only problem is _where _was that somewhere, was it one of Tolkien's books? If you could provide some clarity-- being very educated and fresh on this topic, I would appreciate it greatly.


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## Ent (Jul 3, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> This is incredible. I love all the depth.
> 
> I have heard that Balrogs gain strength over time, and I believe I have read it somewhere. The only problem is _where _was that somewhere, was it one of Tolkien's books? If you could provide some clarity-- being very educated and fresh on this topic, I would appreciate it greatly.



I must confess, I have not read about them “gaining” in strength in any of my researches yet. Nor has it even been an extractable implication. 

That said, I have quite a way to go before I’ve exhausted ALL the resources and completed the background for the essay. (Though I’ve been through most all the primary ones.)

We do know their strength can be depleted, and regained, even as Gandalfs…because of the recounting of his battle with Durin’s Bane. (The Balrog “burst into new flame” as they emerged into the light at the top of the stair.)

in one sense this was a “gain of strength”, but it does not imply a gain beyond original strength or power.

I’ll return to the topic after further research.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jul 3, 2022)

You'll find a number of threads here on Balrogs -- and not just on wings. 😅


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## Ent (Jul 3, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> You'll find a number of threads here on Balrogs -- and not just on wings. 😅


Oh good, i'll check them out as well for clues. but as to 'wings', that's a non-issue. 😁


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jul 3, 2022)

Famous last words! 🤣


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## Ent (Jul 3, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Famous last words! 🤣



Indeed. I know the fandom is somewhat divided on the issue, and I will address it in the essay. That said, I don't expect anyone who currently holds an opinion one way or the other on the subject will be convinced to alter their prior judgments. There are only so many texts that even tangentially speak to the issue in the Legendarium, and they've been covered multiple times.

Thus we're back to "isn't it wonderful that Tolkien left some things unclear for us... otherwise what would we continue to talk about?"


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## Elassar (Jul 4, 2022)

Is during bane a name or a title?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jul 4, 2022)

It was called Durin's Bane by the Dwarves, after it killed Durin VI in T.A. 1980. 

I don't know if they knew it was a balrog, but it seems unlikely.


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## Ent (Jul 4, 2022)

Elassar said:


> Is during bane a name or a title?


Durin's Bane is neither a name, nor a title. It is a "moniker" - that is, a label by which someone or something is called.

Squint-eyed Southerner is correct in wondering whether the Dwarves even in TA 1980 knew it was a "Balrog"...though their ancestors long ago did great battle against the Balrogs of old.

One commentator makes note that "it is interesting that only the Elf" (of the members of the Quest) "recognized it was a Balrog...(though probably Gandalf knew)." 

Personally I would say obviously Gandalf knew since they were both Maiar and Gandalf's wisdom exceeded even that of Saruman. 
But that's another matter.


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## Gothmog (Jul 4, 2022)

L Ray Hedberg said:


> Durin's Bane is neither a name, nor a title. It is a "moniker" - that is, a label by which someone or something is called.


However, the definition of "Moniker" is "A person's name or nickname" (Collins English Dictionary)
Durin's Bane would count as a "Nickname" and it could also as work as a "Surname" if it's true name was known.


L Ray Hedberg said:


> Squint-eyed Southerner is correct in wondering whether the Dwarves even in TA 1980 knew it was a "Balrog"...though their ancestors long ago did great battle against the Balrogs of old.


It is not likely that they would have recognised that it was a Balrog. The Dwarves that were most involved in the wars of the First age were those that lived in Belegost and Norgrod. By the time the stories of the Dwarves of the Blue mountains regarding Balrogs reached Khazad-dum and were then passed down through the generations I doubt that what they could see would be identified.


L Ray Hedberg said:


> One commentator makes note that "it is interesting that only the Elf" (of the members of the Quest) "recognized it was a Balrog...(though probably Gandalf knew)."
> 
> Personally I would say obviously Gandalf knew since they were both Maiar and Gandalf's wisdom exceeded even that of Saruman.
> But that's another matter.


It is quite clear that Legolas was not the only one to recognise it was a Balrog:


> The Fellowship of the ring: Chapter 5. The Bridge of Khazad-dûm
> 
> 'Ai! ai! ' wailed Legolas. 'A Balrog! A Balrog is come! '
> Gimli stared with wide eyes. `Durin's Bane! ' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.
> 'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. `Now I understand.' He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. `What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.'


 Both Legolas and Gandalf named it as "A Balrog" while Gimli did not know what type of being it was, just that it was "Durin's Bane"


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Jul 4, 2022)

Gothmog said:


> However, the definition of "Moniker" is "A person's name or nickname" (Collins English Dictionary)
> Durin's Bane would count as a "Nickname" and it could also as work as a "Surname" if it's true name was known.
> 
> It is not likely that they would have recognised that it was a Balrog. The Dwarves that were most involved in the wars of the First age were those that lived in Belegost and Norgrod. By the time the stories of the Dwarves of the Blue mountains regarding Balrogs reached Khazad-dum and were then passed down through the generations I doubt that what they could see would be identified.
> ...


My suspicion is that it had been passed down through both lore and legend to Gimli as "Durin's Bane" perhaps even gaining such an utter terror that none of his race dared to speak it's name, but used only this surname or moniker. Legolas most likely knew it for he was an Elf, and had wandered many ages in the paths of his father most likely gaining much knowledge from him. Gandalf knew because he was a Maiar, and as one previously said, his wisdom surpassed even that of Saruman the White.


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