# Um, The Bearing of Children?



## childoferu (Jun 29, 2009)

Do you think the number of children represented the number of times a couple had sex, whether they be elves, dwarves, or men? For example, did Feanor only "elope" 7 times, or did Denethor only "elope" with his wife twice (hence boromir and faramir), and then dwarves

I know dwarves were more into their riches and mining then their women anyway, and by nature elves interest turned to a great other many things besides romance, but men on the other hand? hmm............

Its just hard to think out of marriages that might last 100+ or 200+ years(beings in ME did have longer lifespans anyway) that couple only have TWO children


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## Bucky (Jun 29, 2009)

I sure hope not for their sakes!


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## HLGStrider (Jun 29, 2009)

Not necessarily. I think your logic is that because they probably didn't have modern birth control if there had been more sex there would have been more children, am I right with what you are thinking? 

Even in our modern world, it doesn't quite work that way, but other things have to be taken into account dealing with a non-modern-model. 

A woman who is nursing is often not ovulating for that time, and we can assume that without the conveniences of formula a lot of these women are nursing for at least two years after each child. We also don't know about miscarriages that might've occurred and some women have a differing level of fertility than others. 

For all we know Elves can control ovulation. It just sounds like something they would be able to do, maybe because I can't imagine female elves enduring pms. We know very little about Elven biology so there is no need to assume that a female Elf is fertile as often as a female human. The same with Dwarves and Hobbits. 

It is also possible to somewhat control your fertility by tracking when you have your cycles and simply not 'eloping" as you choose to put it during that week. Even without modern medicine some midwife somewhere would've figured it out. I don't know how much you want to go into it, but there are outward symptoms of ovulation that can be spotted if a woman is in tune to her own body enough and knows what to look for. 

Even without any of that, impregnation is rather hit and miss. Some couples who are trying to get pregnant try for years with no luck. Some couples get a "whoops" on the honeymoon. 

I would have researched this more but my own little one has already pushed the button and made me post this half finished once. . .


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## Illuin (Jun 29, 2009)

> Originally posted by *childoferu*
> _Do you think the number of children represented the number of times a couple had sex, whether they be elves, dwarves, or men?_


 
This was definitely true for my Grandparents on my Dad's side, but I doubt it worked that way in Middle-Earth; at least for the race of Men. Elves did have a lot of self control, and Dwarves seemed to behave like today's typical older man with a hobby, but I would assume things were fairly _"normal"_ in ME. As far as Hobbits? Well, half _"homo sapien",_ half _"rabbit"_ (Ho-bbit) - perhaps there were other ulterior motives for the secluded existence. Wait a minute! No wonder Bilbo and Frodo were considered bizarre. It had nothing to do with adventure or traveling at all . Hmm, learn something new every day.


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## childoferu (Jun 30, 2009)

HLGStrider said:


> Not necessarily. I think your logic is that because they probably didn't have modern birth control if there had been more sex there would have been more children, am I right with what you are thinking?
> 
> Even in our modern world, it doesn't quite work that way, but other things have to be taken into account dealing with a non-modern-model.
> 
> ...


 
Wow, you answered my question and then some! Your deconstruction is pretty interesting where you mention that elven women might have the ability to control their ovulation, I can see that

@Illuin, haha, how dare you go there?! Well, I guess hobbits did have alot of _time_ to do _whatever..._


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## HLGStrider (Jun 30, 2009)

I had an after thought that Elves probably aren't fertile as early as humans. After all, if you live to be thousands of years old there is no reason to rush reproduction unlike the humans who have a smaller window in which to pass on their genes to the next generation. Male Elves don't even seem to have the ability to have beards until the "third stage" of their lives, which to me suggests some pretty funky stuff going on with their hormones. 

Isn't it also mentioned somewhere that they can choose whether or not to grow beards at this point? I don't know if I've ever read that myself, but I saw it mentioned in some discussion or other. I know it is a big deal that Cirdan had a beard. All that suggests some control over things that humans just have to let happen. 

Numenoreans also delayed marriage for sometime. Possibly because of the larger fertility window again not producing the urgency felt by shorter lived races. In the tale of Erendis and Aldarion some point is made that she, as one of lesser blood, has less time to work with. There is also some mention of Numenorean divorce practice here in her statement that "long has her bed been empty" or something like that (I actually don't own a copy of this particular story so I'm going on years old memory here) combined with a note that Numenoreans when planning to end a union would abstain from sex to prevent the siring of a child within that union. Which A. suggests that abstaining from sex in a union you planned to keep was not the norm and B. shows that Numenoreans did indeed know where babies came from.


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## Elthir (Jul 1, 2009)

According to Laws and Customs: 'For these reasons it came to pass that the Eldar brought forth few children;...' 

A) In the begetting and still more in the bearing of children 'greater share and strength of their being, in mind and in body, goes forth than in the making of mortal children'

B) 'Doubtless they would retain for many ages the power of generation, if the will and desire were not satisfied; but with the excercise of the power the desire soon ceases, and the mind turns to other things.'

(it is also noted that the Eldar would beget children only in days of happiness and peace if they could)

JRRT, all citations from Of The Laws And Customs Among The Eldar Pertaining To Marriage And Other Matters Related Thereto, Morgoth's Ring


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## Withywindle (Jul 17, 2009)

Interesting question! But haven't you heard of _coitus interruptus_?! Anyway, as far as Men are concerned, they probably did have very many offspring, but would have suffered from terribly high infant mortality rates; we can't expect Tolkien to have recorded the names of all offspring that didn't live until adulthood anymore than genealogists bother to record the 17 children of England's Queen Ann, none of whom reached puberty.

We know that in Numenor, where medical science seems to have been quite advanced and therefore infant mortality rates presumably low, there was indeed a population explosion. Indeed Numenor appears to have been the only really heavily populated nation in the hitory of ME. 

As far as Elves are concerned, I´m sure they could choose when to have children. Nonetheless, the parallels of Elven culture with classical civilisation does make one wonder if they weren´t all bisexual (sound of Tolkien spinning in his grave), that might have kept marital relations to a minimum!

Finally, as far as Dwarves are concerned, can you imagine a Dwarf woman?! Maybe a Dwarf woman looked appealing to a Dwarf, but the way old Gimli got the hots for Galadriel suggests that the poor old Dwarves got about as turned on by their women-folk as we would for an Orc wench!


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## Aernil (Jan 7, 2010)

> haven't you heard of coitus interruptus?


Nope, it's not in the compendium. But let's see...That could be:








_breitha-gwamellant_ in Sindarin (literally: breaking together-loving)

But on a more serious note, one of the reasons Elves had such a "low birth-rate" could simply be that they were much more one with the land and wise enough to comprehend the potential consequences of over-population. 

And again on a less serious note : parenting is said to be a job that never ends...


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## Blueduindain (Apr 3, 2018)

Illuin said:


> This was definitely true for my Grandparents on my Dad's side, but I doubt it worked that way in Middle-Earth; at least for the race of Men. Elves did have a lot of self control, and Dwarves seemed to behave like today's typical older man with a hobby, but I would assume things were fairly _"normal"_ in ME. As far as Hobbits? Well, half _"homo sapien",_ half _"rabbit"_ (Ho-bbit) - perhaps there were other ulterior motives for the secluded existence. Wait a minute! No wonder Bilbo and Frodo were considered bizarre. It had nothing to do with adventure or traveling at all . Hmm, learn something new every day.


Well, Sam, and Rosie did have 13 children....


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