# Ulmo & Tulkas would not 'rebel'



## Confusticated (Sep 25, 2002)

> *But Ulmo was not deceived, and Tulkas clenched his hands whenever he saw Melkor his foe go by; for if Tulkas is slow to wrath he is slow also to forget. But they obeyed the judgement of Manwë; for those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel.*



So what's the deal here? Manwe did not not understand evil,but did he know that? Where Ulmo and Tulkas right to to obey Manwe? Why didn't they at least try to talk some sense into him in private?

PS: was Tulkas just plain "slow"?


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 25, 2002)

Good question.
Maybe Ulmo and Tulkas did try to tell Manwë that Melkor was already back on his old path of evil,but Manwë-not comprehending evil in the first place-did not take them seriously or maybe pity for Melkor and hope for his "rehabilitation" clouded his judgement.


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## ApplCobbler (Sep 25, 2002)

Manwe and Melkor are considered like brothers in the eyes of Lluvatar and I think that his love for his 'brother' may have clouded his judgement. Although this is just conjecture.

Tulkas was most like the ents in the form of being 'slow'. He is not angered very easily, and it takes a significant amount of provocation to rouse him. But after you rouse him, He will stay roused and not forget old quarrels.


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## Confusticated (Sep 25, 2002)

Pretty big error on Manwe's part wouldn't you say? I think that he should never hear the end of it.. Well he should at least hear about from someone once! Since Ulmo did not stand up and speak against the realese of Melkor, it could make one wonder if Ulmo thought the bad that would come of this was 'ment to be'? Could this be?
Did Ulmo just think it wrong to challenge Manwe's judgement? Or was there more to it than that?


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## Lhunithiliel (Sep 25, 2002)

If we assume that the Valar were created with various characters, but still with the purpose of being good and doing good in the world, then I guess Tulkas and Ulmo, just like Manwe, did not understand evil too well. 
I see it more like that they did not like Melkor's opposing Eru's and Manwe's judjments and authority, than raging against Melkor's evil. So, it took them "a bit" in order to figure out that what Melkor was doind called for punishment for it was wrong and it was bad (would they call it "evil"?).

Yet, I have a by-question:
If Manwe did not understand evil, DID MELKOR UNDERSTAND GOOD?


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Lhunithiliel _
> *Yet, I have a by-question:
> If Manwe did not understand evil, DID MELKOR UNDERSTAND GOOD? *



"Blind you are Morgoth Bauglir and blind shall ever be,seeing only in the dark." (not an exact quote)

Judging by that I'd say that the answer to your question is "NO".
I think Manwë and Melkor were meant to be like white and black - total opposites from the very beginning.


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## Confusticated (Sep 25, 2002)

I see a difference in the way Melkkor failed to know good and Manwe failed to know evil.
I think Morgoth knew 'good' when he saw it. I wouldn't eveb be surprised if he undertood it in his hate.
Manwe it seems, didn't know evil enough to see it. I think Ulmo saw the evil though. I'd bet money that Mandos saw it, but he sat silent while Manwe free'd Melkor.


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## Elenaelin (Sep 25, 2002)

Of course Morgoth understood "good," otherwise, how would he recognize it in order to persecute it. Remeber that he started out looking for the flame of Ea (what one would assume represents goodness) but since he couldn't find it, he resorted to darkness and evil...I'm going with Ithrynluin's "rehab" idea- he did the same thing with Sauron later in time....


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## Lhunithiliel (Sep 26, 2002)

So, you say Melkor for sure can recognize good.
Then,

> If he was able to define smth. as "good", doesn't it mean that it was good from _his_ point of view.....which, then, would mean that this smth. could not be _good_ in the sense of the generally accepted category of "good"; _MEANING_ - what was "good" for Melkor could not be "good" for the others;

On the other hand,
>Even if he understood "good" and "beautiful" in the same way as the others, why would he want to destroy it? He was constantly trying to become equal to Manwe and even to Illuvatar in the matters of creation of things. With life he could not succeed well - his creatures were ugly, brutal, horrifying etc... But he still tended to create life and isn't it good? Then, let's take his tower Barad-dur - the way it was described "drew" in my mind (and obviously in P.J.'s) the picture of a mighty and beautiful fortress, well planned, well built, beautiful in its purpose... So, after all, Melkor could create beautiful things. Then, does it mean that he had a sense and understanding of beauty and thereby - good?


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