# Could we make a version of the Silmarills today?



## Celebthôl (May 26, 2003)

Could we? Is it that hard?

When you think about it, it isn't as such a difficult thing to concieve. I mean what would you need? The suns light of course, thats simple, and for the actual casing, you would need somthing like that reflective glass that big government buildings use. Invert it so it relfects inside and the light bounces off all its intirior facets. Then catch some sunlight and if you're lucky  you can catch the light and it won't escape as it bounces off all the facets inside, but you can see in because the reflectiveness is on the inside. And there you have it, your own personal Silmarill 

Now call me crazy


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## Lantarion (May 26, 2003)

You're crazy.


Look, you seem to think that the Silmarils were just simple little crystal jewels that happened to have some quirky little light in them. They were a lot more than that.
These are the opening paragraphs of the chapter _Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor_:


> In that time were made those things that afterwards were most renowned of all the works of the Elves. For Fëanor, being come to his full might, was filled with a new thought, or itm ay be that some shadow of foreknowledge came to him of the doom that drew near; and he pondered how the light of the Trees, the glory of the Blessed Realm, might be preserved imperishable. Then he began a long and secret labour, and he summoned all his lore, and his power, and his subtle skill; and at the end of all the made the Silmarils.
> As three great jewels they were in form. But now until the End, when Fëanor shall return who perished ere the Sun was made, and sits now in the Halls of Awaiting and comes no more among his kin; not until the Sun passes and the Moon falls, shall it be known of what substance they were made. Like the crystal of diamonds it appeared, and yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the Kingdom of Arda. Yet that crystal was to the Silmarils but as is the body to the Children of Ilúvatar: the house of its inner fire, that is within it and yet in all parts of it, and is its life. And the inner fire of the Silmarils Fëanor made of the blended light of the Trees of Valinor, which lives in them yet, though the Trees have long withered and shine no more. Therefore even in the darkness of the deepest treasury the Silmarils of their own radiance shone like the stars of Varda; and yet, as were they indeed living things, they rejoiced in light and received it and gave it back in hues more marvellous than before.


I could go on, but I think you get my point.


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## Ithrynluin (May 26, 2003)

I'm afraid it's not so simple, Celebthôl. Fëanor was a master craftsman and the light within them was the light of the Two Trees, not the 'second-hand' light of our sun.


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## Celebthôl (May 26, 2003)

LOL yeah ima nut  but i mean its surely feasable, they would be 100% tacky  but it would work right?! LOL


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## BlackCaptain (May 26, 2003)

You're crazy! 

But so was Einstien, and look what he did. I'm with ya all the way! When you become rich and famous and have 50 billion dollars worth of toilet paper, you'll be able to thank me cuz I'm not giving up on the dream! You and I should make a buisnes... Silmarili and Co.®.... I can see it now...

*Holds hands out in a panoramic camera box sort of way*


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## Celebthôl (May 26, 2003)

and coz you had faith, you are entitled to 20% of the profits, 10 billion dollars worth of toilet rolls


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## BlackCaptain (May 26, 2003)

Hahahahahaha... Oh yipee! But anyhoo, while it does seem somewhat possible that Silmarills could be made, it just wouldn't be the same because we obviously have SO much more technowledgy to have helped us. It just... *sigh*, wouldnt be the same .

But hey, as long as I get toilet paper!


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## Celebthôl (May 26, 2003)

well we wouldnt need thechnology really...well only a small bit, still i would love to see it done, and d/w that toilet paper is on its way


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## ely (Jun 24, 2003)

I know it's quite a stupid question, but did Feanor took the light from both of the trees and kind of mixed them and put it into each Silmaril or did one Silmaril contain the light from one tree and the other from the other tree and the third... umm... I don't know... ?


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## Celebthôl (Jun 24, 2003)

Im pretty sure that he put the light of both into all three, but i have no proof, just what i imagen


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## Arvedui (Jun 24, 2003)

Take a close look at the quote from Lantarion:


> And the inner fire of the Silmarils Fëanor made of the blended light of the Trees of Valinor,



The blended light. 
You are welcome.


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## YayGollum (Jun 24, 2003)

Well, when I saw the title, I thought it was talking about just making something that looked like them. Of course it would impossible to make an exact replica of the insane things that would only be possible in a crazy fantasy type story. It wouldn't be hard to make something that looked like them, though.


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## legandir (Jul 16, 2003)

I know one thing for sure,
if the silmarils are made again I am NOT swearing an oath to their existence...

which will be easy to do because they are not the originals, but you get my point.


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## Celebthôl (Jul 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by legandir _
> *I know one thing for sure,
> if the silmarils are made again I am NOT swearing an oath to their existence...
> 
> which will be easy to do because they are not the originals, but you get my point. *



LOL yupperoony 

No oaths from me either


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## Feanorian (Jul 16, 2003)

I love this idea. Thol and BC might I accquire a posistion in your company? 

When I am a professional football player...call me crazy but I am banking on it you two can come to my mock-Gondolin and we can chill in a re-creation of the Gardens of Luthien while we bask in the shade of a Feanor statue......how awesome would that be...Middle Earth full scale sculptors. I am talking Greek scale not DVD collectors edition scale.


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## BlackCaptain (Jul 16, 2003)

Ur crazy.

As for the other part of ur post I have no clue what you're talking about    But what the hey... you can join us. Talk to Thol for how much of the share you get.


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## Feanorian (Jul 16, 2003)

haha...I knew forgetting to put a couple of  would come back to haunt me. I was joking..(that would be entirly too much male bonding)..but I still think full scale Sculptors in the Ancient Greek of some of the more Pre-dominent members of Arda would be awesome.


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## Celebthôl (Jul 17, 2003)

LOL welcome to the company 

Good luck with the career, our new age Silmarils depend upon it


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## Swordnamer (Dec 26, 2015)

I'm sorry to say that the laws of physics aren't on your side.

Say you get the light inside. even if the light was bouncing off of normal mirrors, the light would lose energy almost instantaneously (from bouncing back and forth) and would be dark again. Even if you had some magic light that never lost energy, you wouldn't be able to contain it in any way that would provide for a spectacular gem. As soon as you let light pass to see a glowing rock, it would be gone and out of there. 

Unfortunately an infinite source of light that has no power source (what you would need) is physically impossible. 

Apparently the physics of Arda are much different than our own.


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## grimalkin (Jan 3, 2016)

if the silmarils kept the fluorescent sap of the trees or trapped light which couldnt escape is a bit of a mystery just like a jedi's sword... hmmm... u always need an energy source... a perpetual lamp needs to capture the energy even if from environment... GE would be angry if we discover such secrets ...


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## Matthew Bailey (Jun 27, 2016)

It isn't exactly crazy to think that we could build Silmarils.

There is hypothetical technology that could duplicate some of the more esoteric functions (such as burning those who touched them who were Mortal or Evil). But they would require something of an arbitrary definition of "Evil," just to start with, and then nano-technology that is going to be another 50 - 100 years in realizing.

Creating a Jewel/Gem that gives off light isn't a very difficult thing to do. There are hundreds and hundreds of different ways of going about accomplishing this, from basic chemical reactions, to various forms of nuclear reactions in crystalline radioactive metals (such as isotopes of corundum).

Where we have a problem is that the Jewels/Gems we might make would not have _Light_ in them (as opposed to plain "light" - notice the difference: Capital-L as opposed to small-l).

In Middle-earth, Manichean Dualism is true, as is Cartesian Dualism. These are not true in our universe (at least not as we currently know or have evidence of - I would KILL to discover these were True in our Universe. What they would mean would be the most amazing and magnificent thing, and truly terrifying things as well, that could ever exist).

Manichean Dualism is the philosophy/principle that things like "_Light_/_Dark_" (notice, not "light/dark"), or _Good_/_Evil_ have actual _substance_ to them. _Dark_ isn't just an absence of _Light_, as dark is an absence of light in our universe. Both _Light_ and _Dark_ in Middle-earth are tangible things, as are _Good_ and _Evil_.

Notice that the Two Trees of Valinorë dripped _Light_ that was then collected in vats. And that Ungoliantë spewed forth tangible _Darkness_ that was not just a cloud or web that cast a shadow, obscuring light, but was rather an _Un-Light_ that actually was as if it was an Anti-Photon.

So in Middle-earth, you can have a "Handful of _Light_;" a "Pocketful of _Evil_;" a "Cup of _Dark_;" or a "Piece of pure _Good_." You can put any of them in your coffee. You can use them to wash your clothes. You can build a boat of of them, etc... It just requires the knowledge of how to work that "substance," just like you would learn to smith or machine metal, carve and craft wood, blow glass, cut gems, carve (or make) ice, etc.

This is what it means, in Middle-earth when something is "Hallowed" by the Valar. It means that they have driven all of the "_Evil_" substance out of an object, because....

In Middle-earth, _EVERYTHING_ is tainted by Morgoth from the _Ainulindalë_. During the Song of the Ainur, Morgoth's discord wove his power throughout creation, sewing _Evil_ into the fabric of Arda itself. This _Evil_ is normally offset by the _Goodness_ imbued within Arda by the rest of the Valar, such that it does not normally affect people unless they allow that _Evil_ to corrupt them through some _Sin_.

Which brings us to Cartesian Dualism. In Middle-earth this is true as well. Everything in Arda is made up of both a Body (Hröa), and Soul/Spirit (Fëa). Each of these also contains, as a part of its makeup parts of _Light_/_Dark_, and _Good_/_Evil_. 

So the Hröa would have, in addition to the normal molecules that make up the body, there is also "_Good_/_Evil_ Stuff." Based upon what we know of Physics, this would mean that in Middle-earth, there would have to be an actual force-carrier, and particle for "Good" and for "Evil," just as there is for Baryonic Matter, and for Gravity, and light (small-l - only in Middle-earth you ALSO have a force carrier for _Light_ and _Dark_ OTHER THAN - in addition to - Photons).

Likewise the Fëa would have something that produced it (some particle, or force that carried it). 

Here you get into really esoteric philosophy and Metaphysics that deals with Ontology and Materialism (most of which is simply a lot of equivocation of what the word "Physical" means). But the Foundation remains that there must be something that allows a Unifying Principle for a Force to Function in a any World, regardless of what word you use to describe it. Because if ANYTHING is SOME-THING, then it must be possible to say WHAT that "some-thing" is, thus making it "physical," even if it is not the Physical Baryonic Matter that makes up the Molecules of our Universe (it would be "Some-Thing _ELSE_, but would still be "Stuff").

And in Middle-earth, the Fëa and Hröa basically determine whether something is "_Good_" or "_Evil_" (even if that thing is a person whose intentions are good, but they were corrupted by a Sin of some sort to allow _Evil_ to influence them. And it is by this property that the Silmaril's react to the person or being "touching" them. It is by this mechanism that those who are _Evil_ are burned by them.


So... To create actual Silmarils, and not just fancy trinkets having the appearance of a Silmaril, we would need to be able to craft objects out of _Light_. And everything in the Universe would need to be imbued with a taint of _Evil_ that could then be driven out by one who themselves contained no part of the _Evil_ Substance (such as the other Ainur who were not corrupted by Morgoth) in "Hallowing" those would-be Silmarils. And Property-Dualism (Cartesian Dualism) would need to be true so that there was a mechanism by which _GOOD_ and _EVIL_ could be objectively determined by an object that did not contain a "Will" of its own (I forgot to detail that - but will forgo it in the interest of not writing a book here on Middle-earth Metaphysics and Ontology).

Otherwise... Creating a Gem/Jewel that glows is Trivial. It is just making it "Holy" (by the definition derived from Tolkien's works) that is the problem.

MB


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## grimalkin (Jun 30, 2016)

Interesting read... tolkiens silmarils were jewels or gems or structures filled with a fluid. And they evetually, or one at least became a star... maybe this fluid could be compared to stellar plasma, which is a fourth state of matter, im not sure whether it wouldqualify also as being a fluid, however hydrogen in trees is present in the form of water, while hydrogen in the stars produces that fusion etc... i dunno maybe you can explain this better, however note that tolkien is more interested in the beauty of mystery, he is interested in beauty and love while we humans just like Morgoth, Sauron and Saruman have used matter and science to create monstrosities and very ugly things indeed...


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## Matthew Bailey (Jun 30, 2016)

grimalkin said:


> Interesting read... tolkiens silmarils were jewels or gems or structures filled with a fluid. And they evetually, or* one at least became a star*... maybe this fluid could be compared to stellar plasma, which is a fourth state of matter, im not sure whether it wouldqualify also as being a fluid, however hydrogen in trees is present in the form of water, while hydrogen in the stars produces that fusion etc... i dunno maybe you can explain this better, however note that tolkien is more interested in the beauty of mystery, he is interested in beauty and love while we humans just like Morgoth, Sauron and Saruman have used matter and science to create monstrosities and very ugly things indeed...



It should be pointed out that the Silmaril carried into the Ilmen surrounding Arda by Ëarendil did not become a "_Star._" 

It remained a Silmaril, but was, in the Cosmology of Ëa, the Planet Venus (the Morning Star).

Hydrogen in trees, also is in the form of water because it is in a co-valent bond with Oxygen, and exists at normal temperatures and pressures for which is required for Organic Life.

The Hydrogen in stars exists in its atomic form, under extreme pressures, billions of times greater than exists within a tree. This causes it to become Protium (hydrogen plasma) prior to it fusing to Helium. 

It is unlikely that the Silmarils were filled with "Plasma."

As I pointed out, while normal Newtonian Physics is True within Middle-earth, so is Cartesian Dualism, and Manichean Dualism. These are not True in our Universe (You cannot have a pocket full of "Light," a handful of "Evil," a teaspoon of "Good," or a jar of "Dark" in our universe - Yet you can have these things in Middle-earth).

Plus, simply trapping Plasma within a Jewel would not cause it to glow. You would need some sort of energy source coupled with the Plasma to cause it to give off light (Photons emitted as the particles dropped to a lower energy state). And there is where traditional Physics fails us at getting a Jewel/Gem that would perpetually Glow. Creating a Jewel/Gem that Glows isn't such a difficult job, as there are all manner of energy sources that could be coupled to the Jewel/Gem to keep it glowing.

Where we have a problem is in CONTINUAL Glowing, AND in the Jewels/Gems reacting to the presence of others, whether Good/Evil. 

The Silmarils burn those who are "Evil," and respond to those who are Holy and/or Good by giving off a Light that itself is toxic to those who are Evil, while empowering those who are Good.

The only means this could occur is if "Good/Evil" and "Light/Dark" were "stuff" (Tangible things) that was just as physical as a cup of water; a rock, or other piece of stone; flesh, blood, and bone; or a piece of wood. In Metaphysics and Philosophy (and Theology), this is known as "_Manichean Dualism._"

Tom Shippey covers this ground in _The Road to Middle-earth,_ where he explains that this property of Middle-earth was something Tolkien struggled with, yet could not eliminate from his work.

Catholicism rejected Manicheanism around the 4th - 5th Centuries as a Heresy.

Manicheanism was a rival faith to Christianity in the Early 1st Millennium, and 1st - 4th Centuries of the 1st Millennium. And while not called "Manicheanism," all of the Pagan Faiths of Europe contained aspects that were identical to Manicheanism, and seemed to constantly invade Christianity again-and-again through the 1st Millennium as these Pagan Faiths were syncretized within Christianity with the conversion of the European Populations practicing these faiths.

Specifically, the Early-Saxons/Goths, and Norse all had very strong versions of Manichean Dualism operating in their Faiths (along with the Fatalism that also exists within Middle-earth - another heresy that Tolkien flirted with).

Manicheanism itself can be derived from another philosophical principle, which is inherent in ALL Theistic Faiths: Cartesian Dualism (That there is "Stuff" that makes up Physical Matter, and there is "Stuff" that makes up the "Soul"). So it is this inherent tangling of Cartesian Dualism and Manichean Dualism that causes Theistic Faiths to be constantly struggling with Manicheanism (and either accepting it or rejecting it).

But this is required to create an actual "Silmaril" (and not just a glowing rock or Crystal), because the Silmarils contain "Stuff" that is Physical Light. 

The Valar had, on Ezellohar, where the Two Trees grew, vats that contained the "Light" that dripped from the Two Trees as dew. Remember, Ungoliantë drank not just the "sap" of the Trees, but also the _Light_ that they produced as well from the Wells of Varda (it was the Light from these Wells from which Varda created the Greater Stars in the Heavens, and from which Fëanor created the Silmarils themselves).

Also, Varda _Hallowed_ the Silmarils. This means she "Made them Holy" (which is to say she drove out any remnants of Evil, and made them vessels of "Goodness," which had a physical effect upon Mortal, Unclean, or Evil things). That isn't something we can do in our Universe, as we have nothing whereby we can create "Tangible" Good nor Evil (or any means to detect it).

MB


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## grimalkin (Jul 1, 2016)

Tolkien wrote fables... with no allegory, if venus is called the morning star in a fable it is even more so... he was Catholic and such as myself did not believe that evil and good coexisted in one being be it a silmaril. If it caused pain to the wolf in its belly its because it was a holy object, if it were cursed the wolf would have grown stronger in evil madder not with pain but with added demonic power just like the witch king of angmar ... sry... but i doubt very much the philosophies you present... there is no place in his fable to the dualistic natures of the occult, be it the adamkadmon, theosophy, new age whatever, tolkien was a dogmatic person. His study of pagan cultures predating Christianity only helped him understand more the Christianity he loved, no place for yin yan white or black magic, check out my essay in the about section of my blog at retiocan.wordpress.com, thx


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## Matthew Bailey (Jul 1, 2016)

I would suggest that you read Humphrey Carpenter and Tom Shippey on the subject of Dualism.

This isn't a case of What Tolkien intended, but what he wrote, and the evidence within it.
Tom Shippey's book _The Road to Middle-earth_ deals explicitly with the issue of the various forms of Dualism.

That Tolkien wrote about "Hröa" and Fëa" being two distinct aspects of a being's nature *IS DUALISM.
*
That Ungoliant spewed forth an "Unlight" and that the Light of the Two Trees could be collected into Vats *IS DUALISM.
*
The very act of Hallowing an object is addressing the dualistic nature of the world. Tolkien obviously struggled with this, as while he explicitly rejects it in _Letters_, this rejection is in the face of the evidence of dualism within his own works.

You can doubt the philosophies I present (Technically they are the Philosophies of Tom Shippey and Humphrey Carpenter, as well as others who, while not Tolkien academics, _are_ academics who deal explicitly with the formation and expressions religions and myths - such as Joseph Campbell, or the Early Christian Theologians: Francis, Augustine, Clement, Paleologos, ) all you wish. These are not "Occult Philosophies." They are Early Christian Philosophies (or in the case of Descartes, 17th Century Christian Philosophies trying to make sense of the world we see vs the world that Christianity says exists.

And any doubt does not negate their applicability to the subject, given that more than a few academics studying Tolkien have made the same observations.

And, without them, you have a stark problem: How does one give a mechanism by which the apparently "Supernatural" elements within Middle-earth are effected? Tolkien himself, pointed out that the things we think of as "Supernatural" within Middle-earth were *not* Supernatural, but rather *Natural *events within Middle-earth. They were just as much a part of existence as was gravity, or biology. 

Regardless.... This is irrelevant to the question of the Silmarils. They remain a Supernatural Item in our world, beyond our ability to create, as our Universe has no mechanism by which they operate.

And... I don't think you understand what Tolkien wrote in _Morgoth's Ring.
_
EVERYTHING within Middle-earth is pervaded with some of the substance of Melkor/Morgoth. Arda itself is "Morgoth's Ring" in the same way that the Ruling Ring was Sauron's Ring. Morgoth poured his power and will, through the Ainulindalë into the creation of the world, and when Eru Ilúvatar said that magic word "Ëa" (and "It was"), then Eru Ilúvatar gave existence to all that Morgoth had done in Middle-earth.

Since Fëanor made the Silmarils from Stuff that originated within Arda, then it too had a taint of Evil on it, which Varda removed by Hallowing them.

That is the very nature of Theodicy and "The Fall" (That Evil is infused in the world by the rebellion of "Satan").



MB


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## Matthew Bailey (Jul 1, 2016)

Addendum (From Tom Shippey's _The Road to Middle-earth - Revised and Expanded Edition_, pp.141-142. Houghton Mifflin Company, New York Boston, 2003.) Re:



Tom Shippy: The Road to Middle-earth said:


> *Views of Evil: Boethian and Manichean*​
> A good way to understand _*The Lord of the Rings*_ in its full complexity is to see it as an attempt to reconcile two views of evil, both old, both authoritative, both living, each seemingly contradicted by the other. One of these is in essence the orthodox Christian one, expounded by St. Augustine and then by Catholic and Protestant teaching alike, but finding its clearest expression in a book which does not mention Christ at all: Beothius's _*De Consolatione Philosophiea*_, a short tract written c. A.D. 522 - 525 by a Roman senator shortly before his execution by *Thiudorieks (or Theodoric), king of the Goths. This says that there is no such thing as evil: 'evil is nothing', is the absence of good, is possible even an unappreciated good – _*Omnem bonam prorsus esse fortunam*_, wrote Boethius, 'All fortune is certainly good'. Corollaries of this belief are that evil cannot itself create, that it was not in itself created (but sprang from a voluntary exercise of free will by Satan, Adam, and Eve, to separate themselves from God), that will in the long run be annulled or eliminated, as the Fall of Man was redressed by the Incarnation and death of Christ. Views like these are strongly present in _*The Lord of the Rings*_. ...
> .
> .
> ...


 (footnote emendations mine)

Tolkien deviates from a _Pure Manichaeanism_ in his Sub-Creation of Middle-earth (Sub-Creation is itself a concept derived from Boethius - Tom Shippey has a lot to say on this, and I am compiling other works to write something more expansive on the subject. Sub-Creation is something the Catholics would rather sweep under the rug, as it is more than a little problematic, yet not outright heretical), in that Evil is definitely not the Co-eval of Good within Ëa, but is instead ultimately weaker than Good.

If we look at another work of Fantasy which has an identical take on Good/Evil, and Light/Dark we can find an excellent example of the subjection of Evil to Good: Star War.

In the Star Wars Universe, _Evil_ is a shortcut to great power, yet that power is ultimately weaker than the _Good_. It is just that those who are _Evil_ have at their disposal actions and tools which the _Good_ would never consider.

In the Star Wars universe, this is Anakin's Fall to the Dark-side in order to achieve something he deems "_Good_:" Peace, Order, and Law.

In Middle-earth, we see two characters who have the same failing: Saruman and Boromir.

Both Saruman and Boromir sought the Ruling Ring in order that they might "Fight _Evil._" Their intentions were _Good_, yet the nature of the Ruling Ring was such that it corrupts all good intentions (note the lack of capitalization).

But if we look at other characters in Middle-earth who recognized that they must never use the tools or methods of the Enemy, even if it meant their ultimate failure: Gandalf and Faramir (and Galadriel, Frodo, Sam, Gimli, Aragorn, Elrond, etc., etc., etc.).

Gandalf was offered the Ruling Ring. But he rejected it, knowing that it _*being* Evil_ was a thing he should not even suffer to touch.

Faramir went even further, denying even the sight of the thing.

This is where Tolkien departs from Pure Manichaeanism. _Evil_ is tremendously Powerful, temporally, but it remains spiritually weak compared to the _Good_.

And one need only look at the Metaphysics of Middle-earth to see why:

Morgoth was but one Ainur, and those he corrupted were few in number compared to those who remained Faithful and True to Eru. The _Evil_ he poured into Arda was thus much less than the _Good_ manifested within Arda and Middle-earth. Yet the _Evil_ was much more concentrated into a few individuals than was the _Good_. And that _Evil_ was present in everything and everyone who originated from within Middle-earth meant that they constantly struggled within themselves to reject the _Evil_ (see Shippey's quote above to this effect). I cannot find the relevant passages from within _The History of Middle-earth, Vol. 10: Morgoth's Ring_, but both Tolkien's make this same observation about the Children of Ilúvatar and the world itself. And JRRT even puts these words into the mouths of his characters, many times.

Thus..... For the subject of the Silmarils:

That they contained both Pure Light, and Pure Goodness, out of which had been driven, by the Hallowing of the Jewels by Varda, all traces of the _Evil_ infused by Morgoth within the substance of Middle-earth itself during the Ainulindalë, shows that we have no means of creating such things.

Because in our Universe, that which is _Supernatural_ is _*NOT* Natural_ (unlike within Ëa, Arda, and Middle-earth, where the "_Supernatural_" _*IS* Natural_), and thus we have no means to create a Jewel which will physically burn Mortal and Evil hands.

MB


(1) Except among the Manichaeans of non-Christian Faiths, and among the Christian Faiths: The Gnostics, the Paulicians, Bogomils, Cathars, and Templars, and from which St. Augustine himself Converted from Manicheanism to Christianity, and whose works remain fraught with Good/Evil - Light/Dark Dualism from his Manichean Heritage.

And among the Germanic/Norse/Saxon/Goth pagans from whose traditions Tolkien creates Middle-earth, Property Dualism or both the Manichean and Cartesian kinds were abundant. Fatalism is itself a manifestation of this form of Dualism, derived from its very existence.

(2) it doesn't just tend toward Manicheanism, it *IS Manicheanism. 
*
(3) Notice that here _Good_ and _Evil_ are capitalized, as Tolkien is wont to do in many situations (And which Shippey points out later in the book, yet I do not wish to cite more from Shippey's works that are needed for Fair Use of Textual Analysis or Criticism).


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## grimalkin (Jul 2, 2016)

ok i agree with your understanding of dualism, in that good and evil can be present side by side as in a car chase, or God Adonai and devil Lucifer however i do not concur with theosophical principles stating that both natures can exist in one being at the same time. In Darth Vaders case he was first good thn fallen ie bad and in the end with great effort repented to do some good before his death. There is no good and evil living in him at the same time, it was either one or the other, and in that sense i understand dualism and i was taught this way, i am not inventing anything apart from a short story or two, when i have the chance that is. I keep mentioning Theosophy as I disagree with the idea of Oneness in that both the natures of good and evil cohabit for the same ultimate purpose. This would incline a person with a free will to conclude that doing good or evil would not matter much, but it does matter, having consequences for every action that we make. What is your view on Madam Blavatskys occult new age ideas of Oneness, do you concur just like Joseph Campbell didk? On the other hand Tolkien might have been influenced as you say by pagan dualism, however this is a muddled topic and very hard to pin point down clearly, for good and evil arent mere dualistic principles but also opposites... add to this our human rational and irrational decision making and you get to a point where a decisiin must be made, for it would not be a decision in the first place, shall i go to the right or to the left,Revelation speaks of sheep and goats, so i would understand that John on Pathmos was a dualistic manichaen, who if im not mistaken used to run wildly in the forests naked until they catch their prey, like wolves, unlije John sitting in his cave gently meditating on God, who is no dualist, i think that He is good, but then again the devil in hell might think that He is bad....


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## Matthew Bailey (Jul 2, 2016)

Others would disagree with you.

Darth Vader very clearly had both Good and Evil living within him at the same time.

What you are trying to claim is that something is either Pure Evil, or Pure Good.

And in a Manichean Dualist world, _Good_ and _Evil_ are things you can put in your hand, fill a bucket with, use as ingredients in a cake. 

And just like Sugar and Salt can both be used to bake a cake, so too could _Good_ and _Evil_ be mixed to make a cake.

In the case of Darth Vader his motivations and intentions remain "Good," yet corrupted... or rather _Corrupted_ (Capital-C).

In Middle-earth you see this in Ëol the Dark Elf (and his Son). You see this in the Oath of Fëanor, and Fëanor himself (and every one of his Sons, Maglor and Maedhros most of all), Boromir, Denethor, and even Saruman prior to his outright betrayal.

The very nature of "Sin" is that it is a lingering taint of Evil remaining from The Fall. It exists in EVERYTHING and must be fought against constantly lest humanity succumb to it (This is the root of the problems that Theistic Faiths have with the issue of Theodicy - What is Evil, How does it exist, etc.)

And, in the case of Middle-earth (I finally dragged out my copy of _Morgoth's Ring_ - now I just need to locate the rest of my volumes of _The History of Middle-earth_), JRR Tolkien *CLEARLY believed* that Good and Evil could, and *DID* exist within everything that was CREATED within Arda:

From _The History of Middle-earth, Vol 10: Morgoth's Ring_, p.xi:

"For this reason I have chosen _Morgoth's Ring_ as the title of this book. It derives from a passage in my father's essay 'Notes on motives in the _Silmarillion_' (pp. 394 ff.), in which he contrasted the nature of Sauron's power, concentrated in the One Ring, with that of Morgoth, enormously greater, but dispersed or disseminated into the very matter of Arda: 'the whole of Middle-earth was Morgoth's Ring".

This means that ONLY the Ainur were originally completely free of _Evil_, yet even they could be corrupted (Morgoth, Sauron, Balrogs, Thureingwethil, Boldoeg, Saruman, etc.) upon entering into Arda, due to the taint of "Morgoth's Ring" (That Morgoth had poured his Will and Power into Ëa, Arda, and Middle-earth during the Ainulindalë). Everything created within Middle-earth had a portion of Morgoth within it, as a part of both Hröa and a part of Fëa.

Both the Body and Soul of every particle of Arda was tainted by Morgoth, yet could be resisted by those who would remain Faithful to Eru.

So... Regardless of how you feel about the reality in which we exist here... The reality within Middle-earth is such that _Evil_ was sown throughout its very fabric.

The entire Mythology of Middle-earth deals with this fact, and that is why there is such a _HUGE_ a distinction between "Arda Marred" and "Arda Reborn" or "Arda Remade" as _*THE*_ aspect of Tolkien's Cosmology concerning Theodicy.

Arda Reborn is when Melkor-Morgoth would re-enter the circles of the world to fight the Dagor Dagorath; Fëanor and Túrin would be reborn, and fight alongside Eonwë and Manwë to finally "overthrow" Morgoth (causing him to ultimately repent of Evil).

This would then lead to the ultimate and complete destruction of Arda Marred, and then a Second Choir of the Ainur, in which Melkor would sing his assigned role correctly, and in which Humanity would also have a part in the Choir (Tolkien never revealed what part the elves, Dwarves, or other Children of Ilúvatar would play in "Arda Remade."

So if_ Evil_ and _Good_ in Middle-earth cannot coexist, then *EVERYTHING within Middle-earth is absolutely *_*Evil*. _Because Tolkien was very explicit about _Evil_ being perfused throughout the very fabric of existence of Arda.

And... If _Evil_ could not coexist within an object with _Good_, then there would never be a need to "Hallow" things. Well... Not unless the object was Absolute _Evil_ to begin with.

And I don't get the feeling that Fëanor would be working with _Pure Evil_ in _either_ the _Light_ of the Two Trees (which was a component of the Silmarils), or in the other substances of the Jewels.

I would re-visit the works of St. Augustine and Boethius on this subject, both of whom suggested that Good/Evil did coexist within Mankind. Augustine was a convert to Christianity from Manichaeanism. And his work remains suffused with Manichaean elements. Their works are probably the most applicable to Middle-earth (although not _absolutely_ applicable).

And... If you have Volume 10 of _The History of Middle-earth: Morgoth's Ring_, I would re-read the Preface, specifically pp. x - xi, where CJRT discusses why his father was so crippled in his ability to complete the _Silmarillion_.

MB


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## Matthew Bailey (Jul 2, 2016)

And I am not sure what Madame Blavatsky has to do with anything.

I certainly never discussed her with Campbell, nor was she ever brought up in any class. Nor does any of her work have anything to do with Tolkien.

Nor is anything I have brought up "Pagan" or "occult."

If you read the quote I posted from Tom Shippey's work _The Road to Middle-earth_ he discusses that both of these subjects are related to Early Christian Philosophy and Theology, *FROM* Early Christian Philosopher/Theologians.

Tolkien doesn't need to have been explicitly influenced by an idea in order to manifest those ideas. This is sort of like claiming one needs to know about differential equations in order to throw a baseball.

All that matters is that his work contains them.

And the works from which he was inspired contains them.

MB


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## grimalkin (Jul 2, 2016)

No i disagre there you are using the classical argument on good and evil and totally good and totally evil. In Christian theology once your will has decided to sin vs 10 commandments, u r bad, not unless you truly repent. The Holy Spirit does not cohaBit with any other and both natures are opposites and fight each other. The enemies Of ChrisT being 3 the world, the flesh and satan. Yes the argument that a person is not totally evil or totally good is a muddled one, it depends heavily on ones own repentance and introduces us to a second argument most importantly and amiss in todays understanding. What is evilk? it is a concept which depends on ones perspective, however i hold with the traditional view of evil being what is against the perspective of God Adonai that is what goes against the 10 commandments, and it doesnt mean that i hold them it means that evil is evil because it is and deals with what opposes God Adonai not god satan or god man...


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## Matthew Bailey (Jul 3, 2016)

Then you have an ontological problem. Because YOUR perception of Evil isn't Tolkien's for Middle-earth.

Because this feature is a part of Middle-earth: That evil is a part of everything.

What you believe here is irrelevant. It is what Tolkien believed, _AND - more specifically -_ what he included of those beliefs in Middle-earth that is most relevant (This does not mean that your thoughts on the subject are not subjectively relevant to your own relationship to Middle-earth).

Because as he points out, as his son points out, and as his biographers point out: There is more than one or two things that diverge from traditional Christian Theology within Middle-earth.

As Tolkien himself discovered (as is pointed out in the preface to _Morgoth's Ring_) his conception of various theological philosophies were at odds with what he had created in Middle-earth.

I am speaking of an Objective Study of the elements we find in Middle-earth (what would it take for them to actually exist, given how Tolkien describes those objects, and how he describes Middle-earth). As I have pointed out regarding _The History of Middle-earth, Vol X: Morgoth's Ring_, this _Objective Study_ of Middle-earth is what caused Tolkien to be unable to complete _The Silmarillion_. His search for a coherent Metaphysics (And thus an Objective set of Sciences that would apply to Middle-earth) impaired his progress on a narrative, as he wished for Middle-earth to operate by a unified set of Laws, as does our world.

MB


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## grimalkin (Jul 5, 2016)

An ontological problem, maybe however though dualism is present i doubt very muchthat Tolkien himself believed that his characters possessed both good and evil in doses commensurate to their personalities rather than to their wills. I hold to this thought while mind you all other things mentioned here in our conversation or discussion do not cover Tolkiens fable world but our own real world, especially the title of this thread on whether we can reproduce the silmarils... i still hold that the silmaril had no demonic power added to it and was a holy object and not a cursed one. If I may, I have the impression that yourself are making the same mistake that Boromir did, that is Boromir thought of using the Ring as a weapon against Sauron and despite the explanations provided , that the Ring was and could be wielded solely by Sauron, werent enough to dissuade him that once used the Ring can only work evil. There neither does this object hold your precious dualistic personality, it is just evil and evil it shall remain for whoever shall wear it will be bound in darknesss...


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## Matthew Bailey (Jul 5, 2016)

grimalkin said:


> An ontological problem, maybe however though dualism is present i doubt very muchthat Tolkien himself believed that his characters possessed both good and evil in doses commensurate to their personalities rather than to their wills.



Where the Evil arises or resides is rather beside the point.



> I hold to this thought while mind you all other things mentioned here in our conversation or discussion do not cover Tolkiens fable world but our own real world, especially the title of this thread on whether we can reproduce the silmarils... i still hold that the silmaril had no demonic power added to it and was a holy object and not a cursed one.



How many times do you want me to quote p. xi of _Morgoth's Ring_?

The "Evil" (Capital-E) was not "added" to the Silmarils, any more than you "Add" molecules to a pie you are baking.

It is simply a property of _ALL SUBSTANCE within Arda_ unless an object is Hallowed by the Ainur. That is the essence of _Arda Marred_.

The Silmarils were a Holy Object _only because_ Varda Hallowed them. Prior to that, they were just objects of great power and beauty, yet remained "tainted" by the presence of the disseminated Evil that existed in the world due to Melkor-Morgoth.

Again, see _Morgoth's Ring_ p.xi, where Tolkien cannot be clearer about the effects of Morgoth's Rebellion during the Ainulindalë, and the resulting _Arda Marred._



> If I may, I have the impression that yourself are making the same mistake that Boromir did, that is Boromir thought of using the Ring as a weapon against Sauron and despite the explanations provided , that the Ring was and could be wielded solely by Sauron, werent enough to dissuade him that once used the Ring can only work evil. There neither does this object hold your precious dualistic personality, it is just evil and evil it shall remain for whoever shall wear it will be bound in darknesss...



I don't know where you are getting that impression from. Nor do I understand the sentences especially.

The _One Ring_ was itself a product of Property Dualism. Sauron poured what was a combination of his Fëa (Soul/Mind/Will) and part of his Hröa (body) into the _One Ring._ This _IS_ pouring "Evil" into the Ring. I don't know where you get the impression that Manichean Dualism means that Good/Evil both coexist within the _One Ring_. Because that clearly isn't the case. But the Evil that exists is clearly a Tangible thing, which is what Property Dualism is.

You seem to remain under the mistaken assumption that Property Dualism means that Evil/Good are ALWAYS collectively present (whether "equally" or not) in in an object.

All "Property Dualism" (whether Cartesian or Manichean) means is that Good exists, and Evil exists, as objective, tangible "stuff"" within the world. And that it is present in varying degrees in different objects, depending upon their nature, mind, body, will, etc. (The Cognitive, Psychological, and Physical components would all be affected here, depending upon their "nature" and composition). Yet because of _Arda Marred_ (_Morgoth's Ring_), everything within Arda was tainted to some degree or other by an Evil that stemmed from Morgoth's Rebellion.

It does not mean that everything has Good/Evil equally mixed within them, nor even present at all times together.

The Ainur can _Hallow_ things to drive out the _Arda Marred_ component, leaving only the "Good."

Melkor-Morgoth, or one of his Servants, or corrupted Ainur can _Marr_ or _Corrupt _an object to leave it tainted with varying or greater amounts of Evil (possibly even Totally Evil). But the stuff they begin with would have varying amounts of Good/Evil within them, depending upon their "Nature."


As such.... Making a Silmaril in our world would be impossible, because "Good" and "Evil" do not exist as Tangible "Stuff."

You cannot, in our world, have a "Handful of Pure Evil," or a "Bucket of Pure Goodness," as you could in Middle-earth, where "Shadow" and "Light" can themselves be more than just photons or an absence of photons... But rather can be a "Physical Stuff" that you can use like any other Physical Stuff (build a chair out of it, put it in your coffee, etc.). 

And because our world lacks these properties (Property Dualism is not true in our Universe) we cannot create Silmarils.

And these *AREN'T My Ideas... * Save that I have thought about them as applied to Middle-earth a bit more than the people who first thought of them in relation to Middle-earth (which would be JRR Tolkien, CJR Tolkien, Humphrey Carpenter, Tom Shippey, and a smattering of other Tolkien Scholars). Tom Shippey is the first to really begin to detail the specifics behind the Property dualism present within Middle-earth. But Tolkien himself struggled with the issue surrounding it himself (and ultimately failed to resolve his conflicts regarding it - CJR Tolkien, on p. x of _Morgoth's Ring_ mentions this as why CJR's father failed to Complete _The Silmarillion_).

I get the feeling from the comments regarding the _One Ring _that you don't know how Property Dualism works as a Metaphysical concept, as it seems your conception of it is colored by some sort of ideological bias.

MB


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## grimalkin (Jul 6, 2016)

OK I think that this is a very good explanation on your part and we have moved from the philosophical to the actual material make up of two worlds, Tolkiens MiddleEarth and our own. I understand that Tolkien built his Middle Earth also as an inspiration of our own. Christian writings also point to the idea that our world is also middle earth, in that Earth is not the centre of the Universe but the centre of dimensional universes, call them what you like, inter dimensional universes, multi verses, etc etc, one saint particularly described his visions explaining that this Universe is midway between heaven and hell. Recently scientists, mostly on your side of the world, have shown mathematically that we are living in a simulation. Now as regards to yo ur buckets of pure evil or buckets of pure good. Hmmm. .. the fact that middle earth is evil concurs with the idea that our world is also fallen and cursed and that the principalities and powers rule our worlds matter. And again if Arda hallowed the silmaril we also have hallowed objects here, such also holy water, reliquaries, etc... I think that my problem with dualism is that i tend to associate it very much with the theosophical principle of Oneness, and With that i Disagree completely.Lest we forget that both the flames of Anor and of Udun are flames, but that is that, one is holy and one is cursed.


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## Matthew Bailey (Jul 6, 2016)

Oh... Geez... Where to begin???

First:


> Recently scientists, mostly on your side of the world, have shown mathematically that we are living in a simulation.



Knowing the "Scientists" of whom you are referring personally (Nick Bostrum, Craig Hogan, Ray Kurzweil, and others) who talk about our Universe being a "Simulation."

They yet have any _Hard Evidence_ (something derived from actual experimentation). They do have a list of things that we may _EVENTUALLY_ be able to discover (especially now that we have an operational Gravity Observatory that has confirmed to be able to detect Gravity Waves - These are necessary to discover what is known as "Holographic Noise," which would be direct evidence for _ONE TYPE _of "Simulation") that would be able to either Falsify or provide evidence for our Universe being a "Simulation." But to date none of these experiments have been possible, given the sensitivity and resolution of the tools we would need to discover evidence of this.

The *ONLY* thing we have direct evidence for anything exterior to our "Universe" (what you are calling a "Dimension" - although that has a very different definition in the Sciences to how you are using it) is a Gravity "dent" in our universe from a _POSSIBLE_ collision with another "Universe." And this is just one _POSSIBLE_ explanation for the evidence we have (and that only exists in a very low-resolution image of the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation of our early-Universe).

And whether Tolkien _Intended_ Middle-earth to *BE* our Universe is neither here-nor-there. Our Universe *isn't Middle-earth*. Middle-earth, Arda, and Ëa do not exist (at least not yet*)


Now... Onto the next bit


> Now as regards to yo ur buckets of pure evil or buckets of pure good. Hmmm. .. the fact that middle earth is evil concurs with the idea that our world is also fallen and cursed and that the principalities and powers rule our worlds matter.



Middle-earth is *NOT *"Evil."

It contains the corruption of Evil.

Imagine that Middle-earth is a Pie. The Pie has salt in all of the different parts of it (Filling, Crust, and Topping). That doesn't mean that the Pie _IS SALT_, nor does it even mean that the Pie _IS SALTY._ All that it means is that in any part of the Pie that you choose, there is _Some Salt_ within it. Salt makes up a part of every portion of the Pie.

One could easily pick another substance to put in the Pie, such as Cyanide. That might make people think "*OMG! THE PIE IS POISONED!*"

Well... The Pie certainly _Contains Poison_. But Cyanide is only deadly at very specific levels/amounts. And if the amount of Cyanide was small enough, the Pie could be safely eaten by anyone without any problems. The Pie itself is not "Poisonous" as we would normally use the word (It will not hurt anyone who eats it).

Middle-earth is much like a Pie that has been "tainted" with Cyanide such that the amount of Cyanide in any piece of the Pie isn't enough to kill anyone. But there are a few spots within the Pie where the Cyanide is Concentrated (Utumno, Andband, and other regions that Morgoth has spent more time actually living/dwelling within), and there are a few spots where the Cyanide is either nearly completely absent, or wholly absent (due to being Hallowed by the Ainur).

This is different from a Pie that is made without any Cyanide whatsoever. It does not mean that Cyanide/Poison doesn't exist. Just that there isn't any in that particular Pie.

That is the difference between "_Arda Marred_" (a Pie baked with traces of Cyanide), and "_Arda Unmarred_" (A Pie that is made without any Cyanide).


Next:


> And again if Arda [sic] (Varda - the wife of Manwë) hallowed the silmaril we also have hallowed objects here, such also holy water, reliquaries, etc...


 (correction mine)

We have "Hallowed" object here. But our Universe does not contain a substance known as "Pure Evil," nor does it have _Light_ that can be collected in vats or Wells, nor does it have _Darkness_ that is tangible "stuff" and not simply the absence of Light (See Tolkien's Description of Ungoliant's "_Unlight_" she produces as Clouds and Webs that obscure the sight of those in Valinor just prior to the Two Trees being killed, and afterwards, which prevents the pursuit of Melkor.

We can _claim_ things are "Hallowed," but we have no evidence that any people we have labeled as "evil" will be physically harmed by touching these things. We have no means of distinguishing "Hallowed" objects from objects that otherwise _Appear Identical_ to the "Hallowed" objects, but are _NOT HALLOWED_.

That tends to present a problem to objects that Tolkien describes which can _EASILY _ be distinguished from identical objects that have not been hallowed (put them in the hands of a mortal, or an Orc - another thing we don't have in our universe - and if they burn the hands of the being touching them, then they have been "Hallowed"). 

Our Universe lacks any means of substantiating the existence of Souls, Spirits, or any other form of "insubstantial substance" (the very term is a contradiction).

"Cartesian Dualism" and "Manichaean Dualism" are True in Middle-earth, but not here (at least we have no evidence for them, and Physics Contradicts all existing definitions of the former).

That is why we can't build a "Silmaril." Because the Silmaril we might build in this Universe (our reality here) would have no means of detecting someone who is "Evil" (that the Evil existing within them has grown great enough to threaten/corrupt the Good existing within them - i.e. the piece of the Pie they ate contains enough Cyanide to poison them). 

There is no mechanism in our universe to instantiate (make real) that property. 

Our Universe isn't likely to have a "Satan" either. Tolkien obviously believed that such a being exists, but beliefs aren't enough to satisfy the criteria for "Existence" in our Universe. So we have no "Morgoth" to have introduced "Evil" into our Universe as occurred in Middle-earth.

The Parallels that exist between our world and Arda are narrative (they support a story, or myth), and not actual (i.e. Middle-earth is a fictional world, devised to function similar to how our world functions, but with distinct differences).

MB


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## Matthew Bailey (Jul 6, 2016)

Oh!

Footnote for the asterisk in the text:

* Several of us who work on Virtual Worlds have a plan to eventually "construct" a Virtual Universe of Ëa, Arda, and Middle-earth according to the Cosmology described by Tolkien. This means that Deterministic Laws would need to be "discovered" that would govern the operation of Middle-earth such that it operates in a fashion similar to how our Universe operates, but containing things that would be impossible to exist in our Universe, yet _do exist in Middle-earth_ (Eagles the size of 747s, for instance, or Wraiths that have no "body" that we can see).

This has already been accomplished to a small degree with the video games depicting Middle-earth (but they are wholly tied to the Films, which are themselves significant departures from Tolkien's descriptions of Middle-earth).

What we want to create isn't a "game," but an experiential Virtual World that is "lived in." You would "exist" in the Virtual World through a variety of sensory interfaces that give you visual, auditory, olfactory (smell), haptic (touch), and gustatory (taste) senses and perception of the Virtual World (there is a *LOT* of money going into the interfaces, so we don't need to worry about developing them). You would "exist" within Middle-earth as any one of the occupants, or citizens of the various realms within Middle-earth, through any of the Ages of Middle-earth we have the information for; hopefully eventually being able to have people live through pivotal events in Middle-earth. 

Currently we are at the stage of just creating the data needed for the physical world: The geological structure of Middle-earth. The Topological Structure of Arda and Middle-earth through the transition from Flat-Earth to Round-Earth. The flora and fauna that would exist in the ecosystems (and the ecosystems themselves).

But we are also making progress on the Metaphysical Properties of the World as well (what Tolkien describes as the "Underlying Postulates by which the world functions"). These Metaphysical Properties then drive the Physical Properties: How does Gravity Work? What is "Light" as opposed to "light?" What is "Darkness" as opposed to "darkness?" How do the Ainur "clothe" themselves in Physical Bodies of different forms? How is the Fëa composed with the Physical Hröa (Body), and with what is Fëa itself composed? How do Elves "Live forever" within the World? How do Elves not suffer from disease when they share enough biology with Humans to interbreed (indicating that they share a SIGNIFICANT amount of DNA)?

Notice that these are _*NOT* _"_Why?_" questions. we are not asking "Why does the Fëa exist?" Nor "Why do Elves not suffer from Disease when they can interbreed with Humans?" Nor "Why can the Ainur clothe themselves in Physical Bodies?"

The questions of "Why" are answered by the mechanisms that allow these things to _Exist_ within Arda. 

Sort of like asking "Why do birds have feathers?" is answered when you know the answer to the question "How do birds fly?"

I am part of the team developing the Metaphysics that drive the Physical Laws of Middle-earth, concentrating mostly upon Biology (since that is my primary Science background: Computational & Systems Biology: Cybernetics and Systems Biology). But collectively _ALL Sciences_ are derived from Physics, and Physics itself is derived from Metaphysics (sort of - but that is a convoluted Philosophical topic). But I'm primarily the guy who has to come up with the mechanisms that concern things like: How Elves and Maia can interbreed; How Elves and Humans can interbreed; and How Elves are immune to diseases, and capable of sustaining injuries that would kill a human (and so on). Simply saying "Magic" leaves the question unanswered. Even in a Computerized Virtual World, the Program needs to describe HOW an event comes to pass.


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## grimalkin (Jul 6, 2016)

I must apologize for my sentences, english is one of the two official languages of my country, and i spend much more time speaking and reasoning in the national language which has different grammatical rules. We actually have a unique language unlike others, or unlike some others...


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## grimalkin (Jul 6, 2016)

Good luck with the virtual project i would love to take a walk there when its ready that is and the equipment is also available, though as regards to the satan concept well so did tolkiens friend utilise this idea in his silent planet series and referred to satan as an oyarsa... before i quoted st paul, again the silmaril can be given the holy particle, it just needs to contain salt used by catholic priests in exorcisms, while i doubt that we can build a silmaril due to the energy needs, which if built as an eternal lamp will always need energy from a source be it external even if it were a nuclear source.... anyways i think that we should close the thread... dunno... anyways ....


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