# Shelob?



## The PETER (Dec 3, 2003)

What is she really? A big spider, yes. But how did she get there? Is she related to the spiders in Rhovanion? At first I though she was Ungoliant, but after reading another page in the Silmarillion I didn't think so anymore. So where can you read more about her?


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## Dáin Ironfoot I (Dec 3, 2003)

Shelob is the last great daughter (correct me if I am wrong) of the terrible Ungoliant. I believe the spiders of Mirkwood to be descendants of one of Ungloiant's vile offspring, but Shelob could certainly kick their arachn-asses!


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## Eledhwen (Dec 3, 2003)

WELCOME TO THE TOLKIEN FORUM, PETER

Near the end of a long letter to Naomi Mitchison (letter 144) Tolkien states that "The Balrog is a survivor from the Silmarillion and the legends of the First Age. So is Shelob. ..... Shelob (English representing C.S 'she-lob' - female spider) is a translation of Elvish Ungol 'spider'. She is represented ... as descendent of the giant spiders of the glens of Nandungorthin, which come into the legends of the First Age, especially into the chief of them, the tale of Beren and Luthien. .... The giant spiders were themselves only the offspring of Ungoliante the primeval devourer of light, that in spider-form assisted the Dark Power, but ultimately quarrelled with him. There is thus no alliance between Shelob and Sauron, the Dark Power's deputy; only a common hatred.
Galadriel is as old, or older than Shelob. She is the last remaining of the Great among the High Elves, and 'awoke' in Eldamar beyond the Sea, long before Ungoliante came to Middle-earth and produced her broods there ...."

I hope this helps.

El


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## The PETER (Dec 3, 2003)

Ok.. So that explains the ability to talk, huh... But really, Sam kicked her behind. Was she really that powerful or was it Sam who was really powerful.. or just lucky?
When you say the last great daughter I assume there were more of them. Where can I read about them? Later in the Silmarillion, or is it some other book mr.JRR wrote?

EDIT: Woops, I missed the second answer. Thanks you!


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## Dáin Ironfoot I (Dec 3, 2003)

There are no other 'great spiders' mentioned (I use that term simply because of Shelob's massive girth), but it is given that spiders give birth to many offspring. Hundreds, even. If I had the quote, I believe it says something like Shelob: last daughter of Ungoliant, though I could be wrong.


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## omnipotent_elf (Dec 3, 2003)

Im sure Sam was just lucky
Shealob was a creature that even Sauron did not cross with.


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## Gothmog (Dec 3, 2003)

From the Sil


> and fleeing from the north she went down into Beleriand, and dwelt beneath Ered Gorgoroth, in that dark valley that was after called Nan Dungortheb, the Valley of Dreadful Death, because of the horror that she bred there. For other foul creatures of spider form had dwelt there since the days of the delving of Angband, and she mated with them, and devoured them; *and even after Ungoliant herself departed, and went whither she would into the forgotten south of the world, her offspring abode there and wove their hideous webs*. Of the fate of Ungoliant no tale tells. Yet some have said that she ended long ago, when in her uttermost famine she devoured herself at last.


 The rest of Ungoliant's offspring were probably destroyed when Beleriand was broken in the War of Wrath.


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## Xoranix (Dec 3, 2003)

Shelob was terribly powerful, but Sam's determination combined with the light of the Lady and Sting was just enough to wound Her to the point of submission.


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## Lantarion (Dec 4, 2003)

Slightly off-topic, but I really like the part in 'The Choises of Master Samwise' (I think it's in that one, or the previous chapter) where the narrator says how Shelob couldn't believe that anything would have the nerve to wound her so terribly.. It really gives an idea of how arrogant and evil Ungoliant's offspring were.


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## Gothmog (Dec 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by The PETER _
> *Ok.. So that explains the ability to talk, huh... But really, Sam kicked her behind. Was she really that powerful or was it Sam who was really powerful.. or just lucky? *



This is from The Two Towers: The Choices of Master Samwise.


> But Shelob was not as dragons are, no softer spot had she save only her eyes. Knobbed and pitted with corruption was her age-old hide, but ever thickened from within with layer on layer of evil growth. The blade scored it with a dreadful gash, but those hideous folds could not be pierced by any strength of men, not though Elf or Dwarf should forge the steel or the hand of Beren or of Turin wield it. She yielded to the stroke, and then heaved up the great bag of her belly high above Sam's head. Poison frothed and bubbled from the wound. *Now splaying her legs she drove her huge bulk down on him again. Too soon. For Sam still stood upon his feet, and dropping his own sword, with both hands he held the elven-blade point upwards, fending off that ghastly roof; and so Shelob, with the driving force of her own cruel will, with strength greater than any warrior's hand, thrust herself upon a bitter spike. Deep, deep it pricked, as Sam was crushed slowly to the ground*.


 So Sam was very lucky indeed. It was not his strength that drove the blade of Sting so deep into Shelob but Shelob that thrust herself on to it with such force.


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## Celebthôl (Dec 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Gothmog _
> *This is from Return of the King: The Choices of Master Samwise.B]*


* 

*cough*Thats from The Two Towers sir*cough* *


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## Melko Belcha (Dec 4, 2003)

I don't have the book around for the quote, but in TTT it says that Shelob was the last child of Ungoliant, and I believe it says that the spiders of Mirkwood were Shelob's offspring. 

The reason Sam was able to defeat Shelob was a couple of reasons. His determination in helping Frodo, and Sting. Sting came from Gondolin, and Gondolin was just West of the Mountains of Terror. There is something said in TTT about the webs close to where Sting came from. It has been along time since I have read that part, so my memory is not all there.


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## Kelonus (Dec 4, 2003)

I like that scene, where Shelob and Sam fight each other. If I was in Sams situation I would be afraid, but Sam did his thing.


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## Gothmog (Dec 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Celebthôl _
> **cough*Thats from The Two Towers sir*cough*  *


 Quite right. Showes that rushing a post is not the best way of doing things.   

Lucky the edit works.


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## Gil-Galad (Dec 4, 2003)

Ok I have one question concerning Ungoliant.I know this is not the right place to ask it here,but you mentioned that Shelob was a child of Ungoliant.
From _The Silmarillion_ :



> There,beneath the sheer walls of the montains and the cold dark sea,the shadows were deepest and thickest in the world;and there in Avathar,secret and uknown,Ungoliant had made her abode.The Eldart knew not whence she came ;but some have said that in ages long ago she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda,when Melkor first looked dow in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwe,and that in the beginning *she was one of those that he corrupted to his service.*But she had disowned her Master,desiring to be mistress of her own.


Somehow I think that Ungoliant was among the Maiar who were corrupted by Melkor.If I am correct,then how did she give birth to her children?For example Melian married Thingol and gave birth,but how did Ungoliant give birth?


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## Húrin Thalion (Dec 4, 2003)

There si discussion abotu whether Ungolianth was a maia or one fo the dark creatures that roamed the world, mentioned in the Silmarillion, right after the destruction of the two pillars, if my memory is correct. However, maiar could for example have children with eachother, as the orcs obviously had. Many say that they were elves from the beginning, but in his later writings JRRT said they were not, and I trust that more than the Published Sil. I will not go into that debate, but be content with posting a quote about it:



> It seems clear (see 'Finrod and Andreth') that though Melkor could utterly corrupt and ruin individuals, it is not possible to contemplate his absolute perversion of a whole people, or group of peoples, and his making that state heritable. In that case Elves, as a source, are very unlikely. And are Orcs 'immortal', in the Elvish sense?
> What of talking beasts and birds with reasoning and speech?
> In any case is it likely or possible that even the least of the Maiar would become Orcs? Yes: both outside Arda and in it, before the fall of Utumno. Melkor had corrupted many spirits - some great, as Sauron, or less so, as Balrogs. The least could have been primitive (and much more powerful and perilous) Orcs; but by practising when embodied procreation they would (cf. Melian) become more and more earthbound, unable to return to spirit-state (even demon-form), until released by death (killing), and they would dwindle in force. But again - would Eru provide fear for such creatures? For the Eagles etc. perhaps. But not for Orcs.
> In summary: I think it must be assumed that 'talking' is not necessarily the sign of the possession of a 'rational soul' or fea. The Orcs were beasts of humanized shape (to mock Men and Elves) deliberately perverted and converted into a more close resemblance to Men. Their 'talking' was really reeling off 'records' set in them by Melkor. Even their rebellious critical words - he knew about them. Melkor taught them speech and as they bred they inherited this; and they had just as much independence as have, say, dogs or horses of their human masters. This talking was largely echoic (cf. parrots). The same sort of thing may be said of Huan and the Eagles: they were taught language by the Valar, and raised to a higher level - but they still had no fear.
> ...



To reach thr answer to your question, she must have mated with a weaker maia, if she was one herself. 

Måns


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## Melko Belcha (Dec 4, 2003)

Here are the quotes I was looking for.



> 'That would not help us now,' said Frodo. 'Come! let us see what Sting can do. It is an elven-blade. There were webs of horror in the dark ravines of Beleriand where it was forged.'





> There agelong she had dwelt, and evil thing in spider-form, even such as once of old had lived in the Land of the Elves in the West that is now under the Sea, such as Beren fought in the Mountains of Terror in Doriath, and so came to Luthien upon the green sward amid the hemlocks in the moonlight long ago. How Shelob came there, flying from ruin, no tale tells, for out of the Dark Years few tales have come. But still she was there, who was there before Sauron, and before the first stone of Barad-dur; and she served none but herself. drinking the blood of Elves and Men, bloated and grown fat with endless brooding on her feasts, weaving webs of shadow; for all living things were her food, and her vomit darkness. Far and wide her lesser broods, bastards of the miserable mates, her own offspring, that she slew, spread from glen to glen, from the Ephel Duath to the eastern hills, to Dol Guldur and the fastnesses of Mirkwood. But none could rival Shelob the Great, last child of Ungoliant to trouble the unhappy world.


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## Gil-Galad (Dec 4, 2003)

Great,now we know for sure that Ungoliant had children.How was that possible?Lesser Maia?Suggestions?


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## Gothmog (Dec 4, 2003)

Maia or other, it matters little. Either she was, as was Melian, able to take form and became bound to that form allowing her to mate and give birth or she had to take some form when she descended into Arda and was bound to that form from the time she took it. 

Melian took form as one of the Children of Iluvatar and she mated and gave birth according to the customs and ways of those children. Ungoliant on the other hand took the form of a Giant Spider and therefore mated and give birth according to the ways of spiders.


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## Kelonus (Dec 5, 2003)

Interesting. So Ungoliant became a spider, (a freakin huge) one to mate and his daughter did the same, but who did they mate with?


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## celebdraug (Dec 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Gothmog _
> *This is from The Two Towers: The Choices of Master Samwise. So Sam was very lucky indeed. It was not his strength that drove the blade of Sting so deep into Shelob but Shelob that thrust herself on to it with such force. *



It wasnt his strenght, but it was his courage. it would take alot to stand infront of Shelob.


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## Lúthien Séregon (Dec 5, 2003)

Just before I go...sorry if this seems like a dumb question, but I couldn't help thinking about this. 

Was Shelob a Maiar actually in the form of a spider, or a Maiar that looked *most* like a spider?

There are two things that imply that she is a spider: her name ( she-lob, meaning female spider ), and the fact that her smaller brethren are spiders of Mirkwood. And she is a descendant of Ungoliant of course. So this seems to clearly imply that Shelob is a spider. But if this is the case, how come she only has two eyes? Spiders have either four or eight. She must have had a head of different form other than a spider’s ( or maybe Tolkien had no idea how many eyes a spider was supposed to have ).  And she is described as being “most” like to a spider, implying that she only looks like one. Any comments?


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## Ithrynluin (Dec 5, 2003)

Why do you assume Shelob is a Maia? Ungoliant bred with spiders, producing offspring of different 'variety', some lesser, like the spiders of Mirkwood, some greater like Shelob. Indeed Shelob may have _some_ Maiaric blood running in her veins (that's if we assume that Ungoliant *is* a Maia, which is only a guess), but she definitely isn't a Maia.


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## Lúthien Séregon (Dec 5, 2003)

I guess I assumed she was a kind of lesser Maiar considering that she was most like to Ungoliant, who herself was probably more than simply a great and evil animal to have been able to almost overcome Morgoth. That's mostly made up of my personal opinion though. I probably should have written a "spirit or creature in the form of a spider, etc."

The way I see it, I don't think Shelob was actually a creature-spider, because of the eye problem I've mentioned, and the fact that she's described as being most like a monster in spider-form. That seems to me to imply that she's something more beneath the surface.


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## Gothmog (Dec 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by celebdraug _
> *It wasnt his strenght, but it was his courage. it would take alot to stand infront of Shelob. *


 I agree that Sam's courage was great. However, no amount of Courage would allow him to drive the sword into Shelob deep enough to really hurt her. It was only the strength of Shelob herself that caused this.

Had Shelob not tried to flatten Sam so soon, all his courage would not have saved him.


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## Gil-Galad (Dec 5, 2003)

It is true that Sam survived only by chance,but sometimes the brave ones have some more luck than usual


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## The PETER (Dec 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Gil-Galad _
> *It is true that Sam survived only by chance,but sometimes the brave ones have some more luck than usual   *



I am bound to well, sort of at least, disagree. True, no courage would allow him to penetrate Shelob's armor, but still he was brave enough to not give up. So, (after reading the quotes, I should re-read the books) I am more or less convinced that his courage saved him, not luck. If you see my point.


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## Gil-Galad (Dec 5, 2003)

What I mean(and Gothmog too,I suppose) is that no matter of how corageous he was,he wouldn't manage to kill her without luck.He was really lucky.


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## The PETER (Dec 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Gil-Galad _
> *What I mean(and Gothmog too,I suppose) is that no matter of how corageous he was,he wouldn't manage to kill her without luck.He was really lucky. *



I realize what you meant, but I hate calling it luck. Not strength of course not, but he didn't just happen to point Sting upwards when Shelob came, right? So I believe that the "luck" is not luck, but simply courage. Do you see my point?


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## Lantarion (Dec 5, 2003)

Getting back to the Ungoliant issue.. 

The way I see it, Ungoliant was a Maia. But I believe that she was far, far greater in 'Valinorean stature' than e.g. any Valarauko except maybe Gothmog. (I draw this conclusion from the fact that Melkor, arguably the most powerful of the Valar, was almost killed by her!)
She might have come into her 'evil' existance already with Melkor's Discord; but at the very latest she was one of the Maiar who turned towards Melkor's greatness in the beginning.

Now, she lived in Beleriand and there she mated; IMO she mated with the other horrendous creatures of Melkor, and that she passed on her 'spirit' in part into her immediate offspring. Now while all of her much later offspring will probably have at least some tiny amount of her 'spirit', when her offspring copulated, and their offpsring copulated, etc., the strain of Maia-'blood' would have lessened. 
So Shelob is not a Maia, but she is probably directly descended from one. And another theory of mine is that the Great Spiders of Mirkwood were of the offspring of Shelob, who had even less Maia-essense in them.


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## Flammifer (Dec 5, 2003)

Very well explained, Lanty.

I agree now that _if_ Ungoliant can be classified as something other than a 'very powerful spirit or creature' then she must be a Maia. We cannot know for sure, but this seems the most likely.



> _Originally posted by Kelonus_
> Interesting. So Ungoliant became a spider, (a freakin huge) one to mate and his daughter did the same, but who did they mate with?



Well, first of all, Ungoliant was a _she_ !

Ungoliant, after fleeing from Melkor and his Balrogs, set up a nice home of filth and terror in the a valley called Nan Dungortheb, in the Ered Gorgoroth ("Mountains of Terror"). There she mated with lots of other foul creatures (who were of a less powerful breed to herself).

Thus, any offspring of this mating were not _as powerful_ as Ungoliant, because her "blood" was mingled with the "blood" of lesser creatures.

This means that these offspring were not as "great" as Ungoliant. Some were still very powerful and terrifying, like Shelob, and some less so (although they were still very large and scary), like the spiders of Mirkwood.

I belive that it can be concluded that the "dark will" that Frodo and Sam felt in Shelob's tunnel was a feature Shelob had inherited from Ungoliant, as was the uttermost darkness in the tunnel (something very similar to the "Unlight of Ungoliant".........Ungoliant's name also means "gloom-weaver"). 

Also Shelob seemed only to look out for herself (similar to Ungoliant), and only wished to drink the blood of all things, and be fat and bloated, and devour all light (all these thing features of Ungoliant).

It seems in the case of Shelob (arguably the greatest child of Ungoliant) that she inherited more Ungoliant-like traits than the other offspring, and thus she was the most powerful.

I say "inherited" and "blood", but really these are just representations for "genes". But the problem is we don't know that Ungoliant (whatever she was) or the the other foul creatures actually have "genes", or, if they do, that the genealogy of these kinds of beings are the same as ours.

However, if they do have "genes", I think it would be safe to assume that Ungoliant's "genes" would be the more dominant, as she is the more powerful being.

Indeed, if we look at the case of Luthien, it can also be concluded that "the more powerful being has the more dominant 'genes'". Melian, Luthien's mother, is a Maia, whilst Thingol, Luthien's father, is just an Elf (albeit a very great one). It seems that Luthien (as the most beautiful ever Child of Eru) "inherited" many Maia-like "genes", such as her beauty, and her ability to enchant even the Valar with her songs.......she could also by arts of enchantment make her hair grow very long very quickly, and she threw Sauron out of his own fortress, too! I'd say that most of these almost "supernatural" qualities are "inherited" from Melian, not Thingol.


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## Lantarion (Dec 5, 2003)

Yeah that 'gene' idea is interesting! 

Oh and an earlier name of Ungoliant was _Ungweliantë_.. And Quenya _ungwë_ is translated in my source as 'spider's web'. I think 'Ungoliant' might be the Westron equivalent of its Quenya form.


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## Flammifer (Dec 5, 2003)

That could well be correct Lanty...........I got my translation from here:

http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm?http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/n/nandungortheb.html


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## Dáin Ironfoot I (Dec 6, 2003)

Earlier Luthien Seregon (sp?) said that Shelob had two eyes.

Where did you read that? I seem to recall a great many eyes appearing behind Frodo in the passage to Cirith Ungol.


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## Lantarion (Dec 6, 2003)

> _'The LotR', 'Shelob's Lair'_
> Not far down the tunnel, between them and the opening where they had reeled and stumbled, [Frodo] was aware of eyes growing visible, two great clusters of many-windowed eyes - the coming menace was unmasked at last.


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## Dáin Ironfoot I (Dec 8, 2003)

Two clusters of many-windowed eyes = much more eyes than two!


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## Lúthien Séregon (Dec 8, 2003)

I’m pretty sure that meant two large eyes. Also, a quote later on indicates only two eyes ( if only I could find my Two Towers book! I could get the exact quotes ), when Sam stabbed one eye that went dark, and the other was blinded by the phial of Galadriel. So Shelob's eyes were quite un-spiderlike, in any case.


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## Lantarion (Dec 8, 2003)

No Lúthien at least I have seen or at least remember no indication that Shelob had any less than two *clusters* or eyes.
The quote says "clusters of ... eyes", not "two eyes".


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## Lúthien Séregon (Dec 8, 2003)

Hmm I've always interpreted it to mean two eyes, with the "many-windowed" eyes indicating an eye structure similar to that of a fly.

Even with "clustered eyes", she's still unlike a spider, because a spider's eyes are arranged in rows. 

EDIT: Ah here we go, I found my book:



> Sam sprung in, inside the arches of her legs, and with a quick upthrust of his other hand stabbed at the clustered eyes upon her lowered head. *One great eye went dark.*



It then goes on to say that upon viewing the light of the Phial, the infection of light spread from eye to eye. Now regardless of interpreting it differently, the structure of a spider's eyes is not made up of two "clusters".


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## Gil-Galad (Dec 8, 2003)

Well,we need somebody who knows enough about Spiders.Probably a biologist,Eriol can do that thing for us.


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## Lúthien Séregon (Dec 8, 2003)

I wouldn't say that a spider's eyes are arranged in rows, and not two large clusters, if I hadn't seen them. There are plenty of spiders at my home ( particularly huntsmans ). 

Here's an diagram of one that shows the eyes. They're in rows:


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## Dáin Ironfoot I (Dec 8, 2003)

Dear, dear, Luthien. I don't know how to say this other than through bluntess: you are crazy!!! 


> Not far down the tunnel, between them and the opening where they had reeled and stumbled, [Frodo] was aware of eyes growing visible, two great clusters of many-windowed eyes - the coming menace was unmasked at last.


IT SAYS RIGHT THERE THAT THEY WERE TWO CLUSTERS OF MANY-WINDOWED EYES!

There's no other way to interpret that. She had two clusters (groups) of eye*s*.  

Now as to her being completely spider-like or not, spiders generally aren't three stories tall. I'm willing to cut Tolkien some slack on that, as Shelob was a monster in 'spider-form', not a spider as we think of them today. And if he meant for her to be a true spider, than perhaps spiders in Middle earth had two clusters of many eyes.

MANY EYES


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## Lúthien Séregon (Dec 8, 2003)

Sorry if this is a creepy photo, but it was the best one I could find of an actual spider's face close up ( may I suggest that arachnophobics shouldn't look at this? ):


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## Lúthien Séregon (Dec 8, 2003)

Dain, read my other quote, by the way, the one about the great eye.

And why would they ( spiders of ME ) have two clusters of eyes, and why would they be "many-windowed"? My point was, how is she a spider if she had a completely different facial anatomy to one? There’s no need to overreact, I just made a scientific point that Shelob wasn’t quite a spider.  You know, tying in with the thread, what is Shelob, spider/monster/maia, etc?


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## Dáin Ironfoot I (Dec 8, 2003)

I'm not overreacting, I'm only stating that Tolkien specifically states that she had many eyes... to argue against it is strange.  That's like saying Galadriel had black hair, though Tolkien said many times how golden it was!


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## Eriol (Dec 8, 2003)

Lúthien is of course correct as regards spider's eyes in our world.

Almost all spiders have 8 eyes, some families have 6. I did a report on spiders on my first year on Univ... good memories .

I don't think Tolkien knew or did any research on spider's eyes to write his description of Shelob. And I think it possible that she inherited some weird traits from Ungoliant (which was clearly not a mere spider -- more like a spider-shaped monster). Ungoliant "mated with spiders", so Shelob is most likely a hybrid between spiders and "something" (we don't know the status of Ungoliant, and I don't subscribe to the theory that "if we don't know it, it's a Maia"  ).

In any case, I think it very unlikely that Tolkien would research books on spiders to write his description. And I also think it reasonable for a layman to confuse spider eyes with insect eyes (how many of you ever looked a spider in its eyes? ). Spider's eyes don't come in clusters... at most, they come in pairs.

I got some spider eye arrangements for you.


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## Flammifer (Dec 8, 2003)

I think that both Dain & Lanty *and* Luthien Seregon are correct. Obviously Shelob *is not* completely a spider. This is because Shelob's father was not a spider, but some other foul creature that lived in Nan Dungortheb (see my post at the top of page 3). This, I think, is the point that Luthien was trying to make. She was trying to point out un-spider-like traits of Shelob, and used the eye thing as an example.

Good example or not, judging by the quotes Dain and Lanty have provided, I would say that there were two clusters of eyes, not just two.

Perhaps there were two great clusters of eyes, with one "great eye" in the middle of each?



> _Originally posted by Lúthien Séregon_
> And why would they ( spiders of ME ) have two clusters of eyes, and why would they be "many-windowed"? My point was, how is she a spider if she had a completely different facial anatomy to one? There’s no need to overreact, I just made a scientific point that Shelob wasn’t quite a spider.



A good point. I think that IF Shelob's facial anatomy is different to a spider, then this is a trait she has "inherited" (again see my post at the top of page 3) from her father, not her mother. 



> _Originally posted by Lúthien Séregon_
> You know, tying in with the thread, what is Shelob, spider/monster/maia, etc?



A better question to ask is "what is Ungoliant?". There is much information about this on the other couple of pages of this thread...it's very interesting. But basically we've concluded (I think  ) that *IF* Ungoliant can be classified as either a Maia, Vala, Creature or anything _other than just a very powerful spirit_, then she is a Maia.

Assuming Ungoliant is a Maia, then Shelob is part-Maia and part-something else yucky. The yucky thing, her father, was just a foul creature that lived in Nan Dungortheb, and was of less power to Ungoliant. Thus, Shelob is less powerful than Ungoliant, but still very powerful - the most powerful of Ungoliant's offspring seemingly.

Again, if you want more in-depth info about all this, I'd reccomend reading the first couple of pages of this thread.


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## Lúthien Séregon (Dec 8, 2003)

Thank you for clarifying the different arrangements, Eriol. And by the way Dain and Lanty, I apologise for misinterpreting the two clusters of eyes statement, as it was an assumption that, seeing as they don’t come in clusters, Tolkien must have meant eyes with fly-like surface. There’s a quote in the Silmarillion, I think, in which Ungoliant “looks at Morgoth with all her eyes”, that I’ve just thought about as well. So definitely not two eyes. 



> Perhaps there were two great clusters of eyes, with one "great eye" in the middle of each?



This is probably likely - or if Shelob had half-spider, half-Maia traits, there could have been eight eyes, with four large ones in two separate clusters.


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## Flammifer (Dec 9, 2003)

Yep I think that's a possibility as well Luthien. I guess that there are a lot of things regarding Shelob that we can only speculate on - this is a good example of one.


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## Kelonus (Dec 9, 2003)

This thread is interesting. You know what I find disgusting though, is that Shelobs' father is a monster of some sort who mated with spiders. That's just gross. I dont care if you're a monster or not. SPIDERS??? Come on! That's disgusting! Were the spiders he mated or possibly mated(unless you're sure he mated with them) big like Shelob?


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## Gil-Galad (Dec 9, 2003)

As Lanty stated some time ago Ungoliant probably found a lesser Maia or other kind of spirit.But was Shelob the only child of Ungoliant.Was Shelob mother of the spiders in Mirkwood and who was the father?
Interesting questions I think.


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## Eriol (Dec 9, 2003)

The father was a small wimp of a spider, as all male spiders are, and was eaten by Shelob ages before she met Frodo.


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## Lantarion (Dec 9, 2003)

haha Eriol. 
But yeah just to clarify, Ungoliant was almost certainly *fe*male (Ungoliant is referred to as 'she' in the Silmarillion), and would therefore be the mother, not the father, of her offspring. 


> _originally posted by Lúthien Seregon_
> You know, tying in with the thread, what is Shelob, spider/monster/maia, etc?


Well, my interpretation of Shelob's (and Ungoliant's) nature is given on the previous page. 

As for the Mirkwood spiders, in my aforementioned psot I said "And another theory of mine is that the Great Spiders of Mirkwood were of the offspring of Shelob, who had even less Maia-essense in them".. 
So basically, I see it like this: Ungoliant fled from Melkor's Valaraukar and dwelt in Nan Dungortheb. She mated with the creatures of Melkor there, and produced huge numbers of offspring.
Now, the first 'child' of Ungoliant (with some Maia-essense but less than Ungoliant herself) further mated with other creatures. That offspring mated with the other creatures, and so on. And each time that a descendant of Ungoliant mated with a creature with *no* Maia-essense, the offspring of that mating would possess less of it. 
So as I see it, the Mirkwood spiders were probably descendants of Ungoliant; although there is absolutely nothing to back that up. How would the spiders have managed to migrate from Beleriand to Middle-earth, hundreds of thousands of miles??
So maybe Sauron, retaining some of the 'lore' taught to him by Melkor, bred the species of Great Spiders and set them purposefully in Mirkwood to spread fear and terror in the great forest, so that nobody would accidentally find his hidden fortress there.
But Sauron obviously possessed far less technical cunning and power than Melkor, being a Maia and not a Vala in stature, so the creatures that he bred would not be as seeped in Maia-essense (if indeed at all) as their 'forebearers' of Nan Dungortheb.

Now then again, it is also possible (and IMO more probable) that the Great Spiders of Mirkwood were really the offspring of Shelob, who Sauron simply stole and 'employed' into his service.


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## Walter (Dec 9, 2003)

*Ungoliant's nature...*

It is somewhat problematic trying to "categorize" Ungoliant as a Maia. In Tolkien's earliest tales he had envisaged her as a _primeval spirit_ of a _doubtful origin_:


> ...for here dwelt the primeval spirit Móru whom even the Valar know not whence or when she came, and the folk of Earth have given her many names. Mayhap she was bred of mists and darkness on the confines of the Shadowy Seas, in that utter dark that came between the overthrow of the Lamps and the kindling of the Trees, but more like she has always been; and she it is who loveth still to dwell in that black place taking the guise of an unlovely spider, spinning a clinging gossamer of gloom that catches in its mesh stars and moons and all bright things that sail the airs.
> 
> _The Book of LostTales I_ - "The Theft of Melko"


It should be noted that this was written long before the conception of Maiar had taken their final shape in Tolkien's mind (Maiar in their final form do not appear in Tolkien's writings before "The Annals of Aman" which were probably written somewhen in the 1950s). 
But even in the published Silmarillion Ungoliant's origin remains somewhat doubtful and is only indirectly explained:


> The Eldar knew not whence she came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwë, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service.
> 
> _The Silmarillion_ - "Of the Darkening of Valinor"


And though the description of Ungoliant's origin had undergone several changes (_...out of the darkness of Ea..._, and _...from the Outer Darkness, maybe, that lies in Ea beyond the walls of the World..._), I am not sure there is an instance where it is stated that Ungoliant came from outside Eä (the creation or the world)


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## Captain (Dec 9, 2003)

Female spiders have always been more dominant than males. It is safe to assume that Shelob was more of an arboreal spider like a black widow, since she lived in mountains. Female black widows usually devour their husband after mating, hence the name "widow". I also think it is ridiculous that PJ decided to model Shelob after a tunnel web spider for these reasons.


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## Kelonus (Dec 9, 2003)

That is true that female black widows devour their husband after mating with them. I dont know why. I think I heard why, but am not sure. It's sad that the males have fun mating to then die by their mate after. That's not fair.


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## Flammifer (Dec 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Eriol_
> The father was a small wimp of a spider, as all male spiders are, and was eaten by Shelob ages before she met Frodo.



Do we know that the father was a spider? I mean, I know it makes sense for Ungoliant to breed with other spiders, but who says she couldn't breed with other creatures? They were all yucky, evil things, and they are constantly referred to as "creatures of Melkor", not "spiders of Melkor" - doesn't this mean that they were creatures other than spiders? And (tell me if I just made this up) I always thought that Ungoliant was the "mother of all spiders" kind of thing.



> _Originally posted by Lantarion _
> As for the Mirkwood spiders, in my aforementioned psot I said "And another theory of mine is that the Great Spiders of Mirkwood were of the offspring of Shelob, who had even less Maia-essense in them"..
> So basically, I see it like this: Ungoliant fled from Melkor's Valaraukar and dwelt in Nan Dungortheb. She mated with the creatures of Melkor there, and produced huge numbers of offspring.
> Now, the first 'child' of Ungoliant (with some Maia-essense but less than Ungoliant herself) further mated with other creatures. That offspring mated with the other creatures, and so on. And each time that a descendant of Ungoliant mated with a creature with *no* Maia-essense, the offspring of that mating would possess less of it.
> ...



I understand your point, Lanty, but I don't agree with your theory that Sauron might have 'bred' the spiders of Mirkwood. I believe that the spiders of Mirkwood migrated from Beleriand just as Shelob did. They were all searching for dank, dark places where no light reached. Shelob found Cirith Ungol, and the other spiders found Mirkwood.

For my theory to be true, we must assume that Shelob and the spiders left Beleriand at approximately the same time (just before or after the War of Wrath). Just as Shelob was in Cirith Ungol "before the first stone of the Barad-dur", the spiders were in Mirkwood a long, long time before Dol Guldur was established in southern Mirkwood. This would mean that Sauron could have bred the Great Spiders, as they were already there when he first entered Dol Guldur as the Necromancer.



> _Originally posted by Lantarion_
> Now then again, it is also possible (and IMO more probable) that the Great Spiders of Mirkwood were really the offspring of Shelob, who Sauron simply stole and 'employed' into his service.



I also agree that the spiders of Mirkwood could be Shelob's offpsring, but either way, they all seem to be descendants of Ungoliant somehow.


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## WizardMagus (Dec 11, 2003)

Ah, Walter found the quote I had been looking for. Although it doesn't completely rule out the idea that Ungoliant is a Maiar, it makes it highly unlikely. Have any of you people saying Ungoliant is a Maiar actually read the Lost Tales? It doesn't even hint at it in the Silmarillion.

And as for Balrogs being Maia... in the Lost Tales, it said that Balrogs were a construction of fire and iron, although the entire concept of Balrogs changed for the Silmarillion, so that is probably invalid. Even so, it's just something to think about.

Also, I had previously thought that the spiders of Rhovanion only appeared during the "darkening," which led to it being called the Mirkwood (Wasn't it Greenwood before, or something? My book isn't handy). It doesn't say that outright in the book, but it seems like the Greenwood(?) was pretty nice and peaceful. Not a place for giant, nasty spiders. If that is the case, either Sauron brought them there himself, or they naturally travelled there, sensing the darkness and evil there. It said that Shelob's offspring lived in Ephel Duath, so I could see Sauron stealing a few and bringing them to Dol Guldur for his purposes.


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## Flammifer (Dec 18, 2003)

> And as for Balrogs being Maia... in the Lost Tales, it said that Balrogs were a construction of fire and iron, although the entire concept of Balrogs changed for the Silmarillion, so that is probably invalid. Even so, it's just something to think about.



Yes, I think we have to take the word of the Published Silmarillion when it says that the Balrogs were Maiar - it seems to be considered the authority on all subjects.....it overrules most things in other works of Tolkien (except perhaps LotR).



> Also, I had previously thought that the spiders of Rhovanion only appeared during the "darkening," which led to it being called the Mirkwood (Wasn't it Greenwood before, or something? My book isn't handy). It doesn't say that outright in the book, but it seems like the Greenwood(?) was pretty nice and peaceful. Not a place for giant, nasty spiders. If that is the case, either Sauron brought them there himself, or they naturally travelled there, sensing the darkness and evil there. It said that Shelob's offspring lived in Ephel Duath, so I could see Sauron stealing a few and bringing them to Dol Guldur for his purposes.



I can't remember whether Mirkwood was called Greenwood before the end of the Third Age. I know it was called 'Greenwood the Great' at the end of the Third Age, but I can't remember if it was called that before as well. Due to the fact that I am afflicted by a severe case of laziness I shall not be able to confirm/deny this. 

As for Sauron "stealing" spiders, I think it unlikely. How would they be captured, and if so, how would they be transported to Mirkwood and kept under control? I doubt very much that they, being the evil and treacherous creatures that they are, would willingly obey such a master that "kindnapped" them. This quote from TTT might help also:

*"his Cat He calls Her, but She owns Him not."* (Sauron refers to Shelob as "his Cat")

That's not direct, but it's almost exactly the same. This proves that Shelob was completely independent to Sauron. Therefore wouldn't her offspring also be independent and unwilling to be subservient to one such as Sauron? I think that they would be of like mind to their mother - they would just want to be their own master and eat lots of tasty Elves and Men and the like.


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## Illuvatar (Dec 31, 2003)

I'm not sure, but I think it says somewhere that she did have a mate, but later killed and ate him  , somewhat like the black widow spiders there are today.


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## BlackCaptain (Dec 31, 2003)

A quick Q...

Does anyone know how to properly pronounce Shelob? 

Shee-luhb
Sheh-luhb

??something else??


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## Starflower (Dec 31, 2003)

BlackCaptain said:


> A quick Q...
> 
> Does anyone know how to properly pronounce Shelob?
> 
> ...




Shee-lob , as in lobby


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