# Not by the hands of men



## Anamatar IV (Dec 30, 2002)

Glorfindel prophecied that not by the hands of men would the witch-king perish. Does this mean not by the hands of the race of men or not by the hands of the gender of men?

This obviously would end the question who killed the witch king since merry is a man-man and EOwyn a man-woman...

I am leaning towards man as in gender...other wise an elf could have sticken down the w. king. But I could be wrong.


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## Legolas254 (Dec 30, 2002)

I think he meant the gender man, on a count of Eowyn is a woman, but the race of Men..I think he meant gender.


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## Confusticated (Dec 30, 2002)

I think that man is ment to be the gender within the race of.

Remember, Merry had a big hand in it too.


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## Duguay (Dec 30, 2002)

Since the witch king could not have been killed without both Merry and Eowyn wailing on him, I generally take this statement to be: not by the hand of a male of the race of men will he be slain.


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## *Lady Aragorn* (Dec 30, 2002)

i haven't yet read the books but i think that men will dominate the witch-king.


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## Goldberry (Dec 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Duguay _
> *Since the witch king could not have been killed without both Merry and Eowyn wailing on him, I generally take this statement to be: not by the hand of a male of the race of men will he be slain. *



I agree, that is the way I always interpreted it too.


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## HLGStrider (Dec 31, 2002)

> i haven't yet read the books but i think that men will dominate the witch-king.



Huh?

Anyway, I agree... It was a mutual endevor... and then he perished! BANG! Dead guy...


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## Mablung (Dec 31, 2002)

Or maybe Glorfindel was just wrong and he thought that none of the race of men would kill the witch king.


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## Húrin Thalion (Dec 31, 2002)

Ahhh... Here it comes, the hated translation error in the Swedish edition, After reading the LotR 13 times, I still thought it was Merry who struck down the chief Nazgûl, this because Åke Ojlmarks had made an error in his otherwise splendid translation. It said that it was Merry that with his last strength thrust his sword into the wizardking's head! Then I read it in English and got it straightened up. He was slain by Eowyn and the prophecy was made referring to gender.

Húrin Thalion


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## Niniel (Dec 31, 2002)

I agree with Duguay that it refers both to the race of Men and to the gender of men, so that Merry as a Hobbit and Eowyn as a woman could slay the witch-king.


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## Mindy_O_Lluin (Dec 31, 2002)

That's atrocious that a translator could have been so far off as Åke Ojlmarks was. He must have been a sexist and couldn't abide the correct intent. (Ranting required)


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## Arvedui (Dec 31, 2002)

He must have meant male men from the race of Men. That's how I have always understood it anyway.


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## Anamatar IV (Dec 31, 2002)

Well I would consider Hobbits of the race of men...notice how they are called "The little people" and men are called by them "the big people". Hobbits dont call elves the big people and men dont call Dwarves the little people.


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## Arvedui (Dec 31, 2002)

I don't. Never have, never will.
Men are Men, Hobbits are Hobbits.
Just my opinion.


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## Confusticated (Dec 31, 2002)

In Bree the men and hobbits call eachother the big people and the little people. People does not mean men.
Dwarves, elves and I would say even ents are all people. But none are men... so why should a hobbit be just because some hobbit-like men in bree call them little people.


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## redline2200 (Jan 1, 2003)

OK, I am going against the crowd and saying it did not mean gender. Whenever Tolkien says "the hands of men" I don't think he was talking about gender. When he says "men" he 99% of the time is referring to the species or race of men.I think if he meant gender then tolkien would have had glorfindel say "not by the hands of a man" not "not by the hands of men." I think that either Glorfindel was wrong or Tolkien intended to have had Merry kill the witch king.


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## Confusticated (Jan 2, 2003)

But after the fact we can look back and see that Glorfindel ment the gender and as I said in my first post I think this ment the gender of the race of....
Why do I think it ment race too? Merry the hobbit.

I think his prophecy was a riddle... everyone would assume he just ment race... but he didn't, that is plain now.


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## Arvedui (Aug 19, 2003)

Remember that Glorfindel is not just an ordinary Elf. he had foresight. I don't regard his saying as just a prophecy, but that it was something that he "saw" in the future. He "saw" that the Witch-king was killed by Eowyn and Merry, therefore his words 'not by men.'


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## Beleg (Aug 19, 2003)

Is it ever written that he 'saw' Ewoyn and Merry? I doubt this. 
There can be other possibilites too, for example it could just have dawned upon him that the Witch King would die not by a Man's hand. IMO he didn't necessarily see 'Ewoyn and Merry', only the point that the witch king won't be slain by a Man dawned onto him.


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## HLGStrider (Aug 19, 2003)

I don't believe it was foresight in that he saw Eowyn and Merry specifically. . .I think he just saw it wasn't a man.


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## Arvedui (Aug 20, 2003)

Yes, right. Sorry about that. How utterly stupid of me. Of course he did not see Eowyn and Merry. He saw something that was not Man. I don't have the books with me at the moment, but if I recall correctly, in the situation at hand he is described as having a long and thoughtful look at the Witch-king, or rather in the direction he disappeared, before he gave his statement.


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## Cian (Aug 20, 2003)

A man 'not born of woman' (for example) can simply refer to one born through caesarean section -- one is still 'born' of woman in a sense, just not in the usual way.

I note that both Éowyn and Merry are included as 'fulfillers' in the footnote to _Éomer Eâdig_ in ROTK Appendix A. The wording therein is that Merry was _also_ 'not a Man', that is, Merry is not a Man in one sense (but a 'Halfling'), and Éowyn is not a man in another. 

Tolkien also wrote that Hobbits were a diminutive branch of humans, but that is not a problem here IMO. And what Glorfindel may have 'meant' is probably not so much the issue compared to how his words would ultimately 'ring true' once the event had played itself out.

Consider the words of the famed Apparition: 

_'Macbeth shall never vanquish'd be, until
Great Birnam wood to high Dunsinane hill
shall come against him.'_

Macb: 

_'That will never be;
Who can impress the forest, bid the tree
Unfix his earth-bound root? sweet bodements!
good!_

Seemingly good news! And did a forest actually march to Dunsinane hill? Not really, not an actual forest; though in one sense it did, as ...

_'Let every soldier hew him down a bough and bear't before him; thereby we shall shadow the numbers of our host ...'_

¤


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## BlackCaptain (Aug 20, 2003)

I don't know if this has been said in this thread yet, but it is the gender, not race of men that is not allowed to slay the witch king. If you look at the capitalization in the curse, the 'M' is not capitilized in the word 'man'. Every time however, when Tolkien uses the word 'Man' for the race of Men, he capitilizes that 'M'.


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## Anamatar IV (Aug 20, 2003)

> A sword rang as it was drawn. 'Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may.' 'Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!' Then Merry heard of all sounds in that hour the strangest. It seemed that Dernhelm laughed, and the clear voice was like the ring of steel. '*But no living man am I! You look upon a woman.*



If that helps...at all.


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## Cian (Aug 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by BlackCaptain _
> *I don't know if this has been said in this thread yet, but it is the gender, not race of men that is not allowed to slay the witch king. If you look at the capitalization in the curse, the 'M' is not capitilized in the word 'man'. Every time however, when Tolkien uses the word 'Man' for the race of Men, he capitilizes that 'M'. *



_'... and thus the words of Glorfindel long before to king Eärnur were fulfilled, that the Witch-king would not fall by the hand of man. For it is said in the songs of the Mark that in this deed Éowyn had the aid of Théoden's esquire, and that he also was not a Man but a Halfling out of a far country, ...'_ ~ Appendix A, from the one volume _The Lord Of The Rings_ Harper Collins

Both 'man' and 'Man' are as published, and in other editions I own incidentally.

¤


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## BlackCaptain (Aug 20, 2003)

So then it's both. And that's why the Witch King ran away from Glorfindel... it all makes sense now


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