# What did Gandalf mean by 'Flame of Anor?' (merged threads)



## Úlairi (Apr 21, 2002)

*What did Gandalf mean?*



> "'You cannot pass,' he said. The Orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. '*I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor...*



Some people believe that Gandalf was referring to Narya, the Red Ring when he says this to the Balrog. But Gandalf explicitly says:



> ...flame of Anor....



Anor is Aman or Valinor, correct? He couldn't have been referring to Minas Anor. So, what is the *Flame of Anor*? What is Gandalf actually referring to when he says this?


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## Úlairi (Apr 21, 2002)

Is anyone going to post?


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## Rangerdave (Apr 21, 2002)

I would assume that both refer to the Flame Impersihasble that resides with Iluvatar. The flame that kindles but does not consume. The flame of hope and the flame of justice.

The self same flame that Melkor searched for in vain, not knowing that it was a part of him. In short, the mind of God.

Maybe
RD


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## BluestEye (Apr 21, 2002)

Looks as if everybody is tired of this topic 

I have openned a thread about this some months ago, named: "Just A Crazy Theory". You can take a look at it if you want.

BluestEye


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## Grond (Apr 21, 2002)

From the Silmarillion

"He [Melkor] had gone often alone into the void places seeking the Imperishable Flame; for desire grew hot within him to bring into Being things of his own, and it seemed to him that Iluvatar took no thought for the Void, and he was impatient of its emptiness. Yet he found not the Fire, for it is with Iluvatar."[The Silmarillion] 

Then later:

"Therefore Iluvatar gave to their vision Being, and set it amid the Void, and the Secret Fire was sent to burn at the heart of the World; and it was called Ea." [The Silmarillion] 


The Imperishable Flame and the Secret Fire seem to represent the same thing; the power of Iluvatar to impart actual Being to his thought - the spirit of creation, if you will. It seems fitting that this would be something that Gandalf (as a Maia sent from the West by the Valar) would "serve" as counterposed to the evil of the Balrog. In this context, any notion of Gandalf serving the power of his ring would be incorrect.


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## BluestEye (Apr 22, 2002)

I think that the Imperishable Flame is very similar to the Power many ancient civilizations spoke about (Prana in India, Ka in Ancient Egypt and Ki or Chi in the Far-East). It is the Power of Life itself, the reason for our own being. This is the 'electricity' that functions our bodies. This is the power of Creation. And Gandalf serves this Power, because Creation is the power of Goodness while Distraction is the power of Evil things.

BluestEye


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## Beleg Strongbow (Apr 22, 2002)

Yes Ulairi. Maybe u should look at the other thread. He could have meant anor as in Eraidor?? I think as does Grond that the Flame that Gandalf spoke of isnt the same as Iluvatars flame. I think he speaks of the flame with reference to his ring and the power with fire which he holds. The ring was made in Anor and has spent most its time there with Gandalf and Cirdan.


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## Úlairi (Apr 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Grond _
> *From the Silmarillion
> 
> "He [Melkor] had gone often alone into the void places seeking the Imperishable Flame; for desire grew hot within him to bring into Being things of his own, and it seemed to him that Iluvatar took no thought for the Void, and he was impatient of its emptiness. Yet he found not the Fire, for it is with Iluvatar."[The Silmarillion]
> ...



Thankyou Grond. BluestEye, I did not see your thread, I am sorry. Grond, I thought that this was the answer to my question, but, as always, I had to be sure.


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## BluestEye (Apr 22, 2002)

Ulairi, I'm sorry. I searched for the thread I told you about and I could not find it. Maybe it was removed for some reasn, I dunno.
My appologies,

BluestEye


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## Úlairi (Apr 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by BluestEye _
> *Ulairi, I'm sorry. I searched for the thread I told you about and I could not find it. Maybe it was removed for some reasn, I dunno.
> My appologies,
> 
> BluestEye *



As did I. Hey BluestEye, threads eventually go. The Mods do it to keep the bandwith running without any hiccups. No need to apologise for something you didn't even do!


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## Lantarion (Apr 22, 2002)

Beleg, there is no place in Eriador, or indeed Middle-Earth, called Anor. There was a place called *Arnor*, which was part of the old kingdom of the Dúnedain and was reinsteted with the return of the King. Anor was the name of the Sun, and Anórien was its wielder. I think the Flame of Anor means that he carries with him a spirit of hope and light which even a demon of power like the Balrog cannot quench. I also think he could be talking about his ring, Narya, which was the Red Ring of Fire of the Three Elven Rings; it strengthened the wielder's spirit and mind, which must have helped Gandalf in many situations.


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## Gil-Galad (Apr 22, 2002)

Well,Anor is the name of the Sun.The sun is a kind of giant fire,something which light goes everywhere and keeps hope alive.I would say that the ring of Gandalf has some parallels with the sun.Both they're fire and light and even hope.It's said that the ring of fire would keep people's hope ,just like the sun.During all battles when the day was coming and sun ligths always gave hope to the people in battles and they won after all.So I think the parallel between Anor and Narya is obvious.


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## Úlairi (Apr 22, 2002)

The Sun was made by the Maia Arien and was named Anor, that is correct Gil-galad. There is one place in Middle-earth where Anor is mentioned, and that is *Minas Anor*, which was changed to Minas Tirith.


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## Sam_Gamgee (Apr 23, 2002)

NO CLUE


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## BluestEye (Apr 23, 2002)

*Concerning Minas Anor*

In the Sil "Minas Anor" is the city of Anarion, and it's name means: "The City Of The Sun" (In my head I imagine now Esteban and Zia riding on their Golden-Condor....).
Also, it is mentioned in the Sil that the city was sometimes called just "Anor".
So, if indeed we want to look for an actual place called Anor, it is "Minas Anor". Anybody knows of a Flame in Minas Anor (Later "Minas Tirith") that can be wielded? The two things that I can think about are: the Palantir of Minas Anor or the Great Library of wisdom beneath that beautiful city.

BluestEye


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## Úlairi (Apr 23, 2002)

Yes, very good BluestEye, however, I do not think that Gandalf would be the servant of them. So I think we can stick to Iluvatar being the Flame Imperishable or the Secret Fire for now.


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## BluestEye (Apr 23, 2002)

Yes Ulairi, though when I mentioned Minas Anor's Palantir and it's Great Undergrund Library I meant to suggest that it is possible that Gandalf hinted that he wields the Wisdom of these things which hold the power of Good.

BluestEye


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## Úlairi (Apr 23, 2002)

Very good points, but therefore you are suggesting that he is mentioning wisdom as a flame and I do not know of anywhere that that is a possibility, and being a servant of wisdom is also impossible, as he is the wisest of all Maiar.


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## BluestEye (Apr 23, 2002)

But this is exactly my point, Ulairi  
He doesn't say that he is the Servant of the Fire of Anor. He says he is the *weilder* of the Flame of Anor, so he may suggest he has the "Flame" of Wisdom that comes from the knowledge of the Underground Library of "Minar Tirith" (Once "Minas Anor", or simply "Anor").

BluestEye


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## Grond (Apr 23, 2002)

I must reexamine my position. I overlooked the fact that Gandalf said "wield". That can only mean (IMHO) that he had a weapon. The only weapons we know that Gandalf could have wielded would have been Glamdring or Narya. Given that the Ring he wears is the Ring of Fire and Anor means Sun... I would have to say that he is referring to his Ring of Fire. 

(Who says that Grond can't change his mind???)


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## Úlairi (Apr 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by BluestEye _
> *But this is exactly my point, Ulairi
> He doesn't say that he is the Servant of the Fire of Anor. He says he is the weilder of the Flame of Anor, so he may suggest he has the "Flame" of Wisdom that comes from the knowledge of the Underground Library of "Minar Tirith" (Once "Minas Anor", or simply "Anor").
> 
> BluestEye *



BluestEye - I would have to agree with you on that one BluestEye, I cannot find a hole in your argument therefore I have to accept it as a possibility. But then why would Gandalf be a servant of the 'Secret Fire'. IMO, it sounds like the 'Flame of Anor' and the 'Secret Fire' sound like the same thing. I do not believe that Gandalf would be a servant of wisdom.



> _Originally posted by Grond_
> *I must reexamine my position. I overlooked the fact that Gandalf said "wield". That can only mean (IMHO) that he had a weapon. The only weapons we know that Gandalf could have wielded would have been Glamdring or Narya. Given that the Ring he wears is the Ring of Fire and Anor means Sun... I would have to say that he is referring to his Ring of Fire.*



Actually Grond, there are multiple meanings to the word 'wield'.



> *wield*:*1.* to hold and use (a weapon or *tool*) *2.* exert or command (power etc.)
> _The Illlustrated Oxford Dictionary Published 1998_



I would have say that Tolkien was referring to the first definition given here. Which was weapon or *tool*. I know what you would say and I would definitely agree that Narya could be both a tool and a weapon. But if Tolkien was referring to a 'tool' than our options open a little. Perhaps it is what BluestEye said (though I doubt it) that it was wisdom and I would have to agree that that is a definite tool. Gandalf said that he is the wielder of the flame of Anor i.e. the Sun, could he be referring to Arien, the Maia of Fire? Any suggestions?


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## Rangerdave (Apr 23, 2002)

*Wield?*

Does not the sword in fact wield the fencer? The flame imperishable may very well wield Gandalf. But I would think that the major threat to the Balrog is the flame served rather than the flame wielded.

RD


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## Úlairi (Apr 23, 2002)

So you're saying that the flame of Anor wielded Gandalf? That's interesting Rangerdave. So, that would help the argument, as you have stated Rangerdave, that Iluvatar used or 'wielded' Gandalf and Gandalf was his tool or weapon. Hmmmm, interesting, I will ponder this for a while.


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## Elu Thingol (May 23, 2002)

When Gandalf says he wields the flame of Anor I think he is refering of his sword Glamdring. We know from his battle on The Bridge of Khazad-dum that Glamdring glitters white. " From out of the shadow a red sword leaped flaming. Glamdring glittered white in answer."(Fellowship of the Ring pg.429). This glittering could be considered a flame.

*Flame*-1 : the glowing gaseous part of a fire
2 a : a state of blazing combustion *the car burst into flame* b : a condition or appearance suggesting a flame or burning: as (1) : burning zeal or passion (2) : a strong reddish orange color
3 : BRILLIANCE, BRIGHTNESS
4 : SWEETHEART


It definetly has brilliance and it could suggest a flame or burning. Also, we do not know where Glamdring was made. It could have been made in Minas Anor which would make one of its titles "Flame of Anor"

Also, Gandalf telling the Balrog that he wields this flame is a challenge meaning he will use it against the Balrog. And since he uses Glamdring it is probably the flame.


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## Úlairi (May 24, 2002)

And yet so easy to shoot down your argument. Glamdring was not forged it Anor, it was made by the Dwarves of Middle-earth for battle with the Orcs.


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## Legolam (May 24, 2002)

I like the idea that he is weilding the power of the sun. I sort of took it to mean that some sort of power from the sun was trapped inside Narya.

This sort of fits if you take Mithrandir2003's definition of flame:


> b : a condition or appearance suggesting a flame or burning: as (1) : burning zeal or passion


The power and passion of the sun is contained in the ring, giving it's wearer some of those strengths


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## Elu Thingol (May 24, 2002)

Posted by Ulairi


> And yet so easy to shoot down your argument. Glamdring was not forged it Anor, it was made by the Dwarves of Middle-earth for battle with the Orcs.



What you Ulairi no evidence???? MMM... Suprising. Give me that and I will be satisfied until then your post proves NOTHING!


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## Rangerdave (May 24, 2002)

*What? No Evil Laughter?*



> _Originally posted by Mithrandir2003 _
> *Posted by Ulairi
> 
> 
> What you Ulairi no evidence???? MMM... Suprising. Give me that and I will be satisfied until then your post proves NOTHING! *




You forgot to include the evil laughter. What are evil kids coming to these days when they don't ever remember the evil laughter. Back in my day we knew the value of evil laughter by golly. 

Excuse me, I've got to go yell at the neighbor kids again.
Hey you kids, get off my yard!
(insert evil laughter here.)

RD


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## Tyaronumen (May 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *And yet so easy to shoot down your argument. Glamdring was not forged it Anor, it was made by the Dwarves of Middle-earth for battle with the Orcs. *



I'm surprised that no one has mentioned yet that Glamdring was an ELVEN blade, forged in Gondolin.


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## Elu Thingol (May 24, 2002)

I was thinking about putting in evil laughter but decided against, but since you want to hear it here it is.

*BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH*  

Posted by Tyaronumen


> I'm surprised that no one has mentioned yet that Glamdring was an ELVEN blade, forged in Gondolin.



You have no proof. It is said that Glamdring has runes on it, but this proves nothing since after the creation of runes by Rumil they have been widely used by other races. I don't know how you found it was discovered in Gondolin, I pretty sure it wasn't.


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## Úlairi (May 25, 2002)

A commendable effort Mithrandir2003. Very good, bravo! There is no proof, you are right. Btw, I was wrong about it being forged by Dwarves, it was Elves, you are right. However Mithrandir2003, show us the proof that Glamdring *was* made in Anor, and I'll believe you.


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## Elu Thingol (May 25, 2002)

I was just stating a theory, a possibility. I did not say there was proof. I am just saying that there is no proof against it. So it is possible that Glamdring was what Gandalf was talking about.


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## Úlairi (May 27, 2002)

Plausible yet improbable.


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## Elu Thingol (May 27, 2002)

prove its improbable


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## Rangerdave (May 27, 2002)

Okay you two play nice. Good boys.

My question to all those with the ability and skill to work with Tolkien's languages, has anyone tried to translate what _Glamdring_ means. That might offer a clue. Does the name denote any kind of flame? 

If it does not, I would believe that this may be barking up the wrong tree.

Let me know
RD


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## Elu Thingol (May 28, 2002)

The meaning of Glamdring is foe-hammer, but the literal meaning is noise-host hammer.


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## Úlairi (May 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Mithrandir2003_
> *prove its improbable*



I could write one hundred ways as to why it is not. Anor is Aman, or, to be more specific, Valinor. No Orcs would have been present in Aman, or, *foes* for that matter. Why would the smiths of Anor have forged a sword to defeat foes when there weren't any to defeat? Answer me that one Mithy-baby.



> _Originally posted by Mithrandir2003_
> *The meaning of Glamdring is foe-hammer, but the literal meaning is noise-host hammer.*



Glad to see that you didn't get *that* one wrong Mithrandir2003.


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## Rangerdave (May 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *
> Why would the smiths of Anor have forged a sword to defeat foes when there weren't any to defeat? Answer me that one Mithy-baby. *




Okay, by that line of reasoning, why did the Smiths of Anor forge any weapons at all? No enemies. But I seem to remember that the followers of Feanor put their hands on quite a few in a big hurry.

Riddle me that batman.

RD


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## BluestEye (May 28, 2002)

As far as I remember, the Valinorean Elves forged their weapons after Melkor was loosed to walk among them after his 3 ages of imprissonment. He had a plan to make the Elves believe they are prissoners of the Valar instead of their guests, and many of the Elves believed his lies. But many kept having their faith in the Valar and the Elves were devided into many groups. At this time the first Elven-Weapons were forged in Aman, and they were meant to be used against other Elves and against the Valar themselves if it will be nessesary.

Bluest Eye


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## Rangerdave (May 28, 2002)

Excellent answer BluestEye. Spot on.

But I threw that in there just to yank on Ulairi's chain. His last post was such a breach of his usual logical approach that I felt it necessary to rib him a little. Just to keep him on his toes so to speak. 

Thanks again for the interjecting some valuable information into what seems to be devolving into a real pi***ng contest here. 

RD


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## Elu Thingol (May 28, 2002)

Rangerdave, where does it say that Anor is Valinor. I can't remember reading it any where. Can you please enlighten me.


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## Rangerdave (May 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Mithrandir2003 _
> *Rangerdave, where does it say that Anor is Valinor. I can't remember reading it any where. Can you please enlighten me. *



Well, nowhere. I just wanted to yank Ulairi's chain a bit. The logic of his rebutal is that Elves would not forge swords if there were no foes around. I find that just a bit silly. The time to prepare for war is when you are at peace. Once the avalanche has started, it is too late for the pebbles to prepare.

RD


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## Elu Thingol (May 28, 2002)

Good Job Rangerdave and BluestEye! You guys definetly pinned down Ulairi even though he was wrong about Valinor being Anor in the first place.


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## Úlairi (May 28, 2002)

What is Anor then, if you have so carefully pinned me down? It's the sun, Anor is the sun (as in Minas *Anor*). And here's the punchline, this is where my usual logic comes right back in. I had a little discussion before and we concluded that Gandalf was the wielder of the Flame Imperishable (Iluvatar). Glamdring was definitely *not* of Iluvatar. So, how could the Flame of the Flame Imperishable be Glamdring. Answer me that one, I know you can't.

And the mighty Ulairi has once again got himself out of trouble! You mere mortals can never defeat me!


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## Elu Thingol (May 29, 2002)

Where did you conclude that the "flame of anor" was in fact the flame imperishable. Since Anor is the sun and the sun is a perishable flame, Anor would not be an imperishable flame.


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## Theoden (May 29, 2002)

I don't know, but it is a cool question and one that I have asked myself alot. Thanx to all of you Tolkien fans who know more thsn I do.


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## Rangerdave (May 29, 2002)

A couple of questions.

1. Was Galdalf included in the Istari at the request of Manwe or Varda?

2. Did Varda created the sun as she did the stars?

The reason I ask, is that if Varda created the sun; the Flame of Anor may be an allusion to the Power of Varda. Sort of the old "I am the right hand of God" type thing. Or put another way, the Flame or Anor may be a reference rather than a thing.

Ideas?
RD


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## BluestEye (May 29, 2002)

To your questions, Rangerdave:

1. When Manwe asked from the Maiar to vulenteer for this quest, the Valar sent Curunir and Co. But when he saw that Olorin (Gandalf) wasn't in this Co. he asked: "But where is Olorin?" Then he stepped forward and was sent with the rest of the Istari to ME. It is said that he was the only one who truly feared Sauron and didn't want to leave Arda because he liked the company of the Valinorean Elves.

2. Varda was one of the creators of the Sun, as far as I remember. There was another Valar working with her along with Manwe to create the Sun and the Moon. If you want to, I can look for you in the Sil for the name of this third Valar.

BluestEye


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## Lantarion (May 29, 2002)

From The Complete Guide to Middle-Earth, by Robert Foster.

*Sun*The younger, brighter and hotter of the two lamps of heaven created by the Valar after the poisoning of the Two Trees. The light of the Sun was the last fruit of Laurelin, placed in a vessel made bu Aulë and guided through the heavens by Arien.

So really the only Vala who was involved in the making of the Sun was Aulë, because Arien was a Maia.


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## BluestEye (May 29, 2002)

From "The Silmarilion" (First Edition) by J.R.R Tolkien (not Robert Foster)

"These [the flower and the fruit of the dying trees] Yavanna took; and then the Trees died, and their lifeless stems stand yet in Valinor, a memorial of vanished joy. But the flower and the fruit Yavanna gave to Aule, and Manwe hallowed them, and Aule *and his people* made vessels to hold them and preserve their radiance: as is said in the _Narsilion_ , the Song of the Sun and Moon. These vessels the Valar gave to *Varda*, that they might become lamps of heaven, outshining the ancient stars, being nearer to Arda; and *she gave them power* to traverse the lower regions of Ilmen, and set them to voyage upon appointed couses above the girdle of the Earth from the West unto the East and to return."

_"The Silmarilion" [First Edition] - Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor_ 

I suggest you to stick with Tolkien, Pontifex  
He seems to know best about Middle-earth History...

Bluest Eye


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## Elu Thingol (May 29, 2002)

He should know best he created it.


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## Grond (May 30, 2002)

Just a question. Has it been resolved that the sword Glamdring was indeed forged in Gondolin? If it hasn't here is the quote from the Hobbit,

*"'These are not troll-make. They are old swords, very old swords of the High Elves of the West, my kin. They were made in Gondolin for the Goblin-wars. They must have come from a dragon's hoard or goblin plunder, for dragons and goblins destroyed that city many ages ago. This, Thorin, the runes name Orcrist, the Goblin-cleaver in the ancient tongue of Gondolin; it was a famous blade. This, Gandalf, was Glamdring, Foe-hammer that the king of Gondolin once wore. Keep them well!'"*

This does not definatively say that they were forged by the Elves but in my readings of the Silmarillion, Dwarves never even knew of its existence so it would have been hard for them to have forged it there.


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## Úlairi (May 31, 2002)

You are correct Bluesteye, and Grond, well done, I forgot that quote. Here is another quote from the Sil saying that Arien, the Maia of *Fire*, took part in its creation.



> "The maiden whom the Valar chose from among the Maiar to *guide* the vessel of the Sun was named *Arien*,..."



However, Bluesteye was exact in what he has stated.


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## Úlairi (May 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Mithrandir2003 _
> *Where did you conclude that the "flame of anor" was in fact the flame imperishable. Since Anor is the sun and the sun is a perishable flame, Anor would not be an imperishable flame. *



Read back at the very beginnig of this thread, and you'll find the answers to your questions there.


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## Elu Thingol (May 31, 2002)

Ulairi I admit my idea is a little far fetched but it is a possiblility, I don't think we can ever know for sure what Gandalf meant. It is possible that Gandalf was refering to Glamdring though.


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## Grond (May 31, 2002)

I am still unsure. Gandalf could easily be referring to his Ring Narya. Certainly it is the Elvish Ring of Fire and would have been imbued with the power of Anor when it was made by Celebrimbor. I don't think we will ever reach a definite conclustion on this.


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## BluestEye (Jun 2, 2002)

Pontifex,
I trust that I haven't hurt you with my humorous remark about sticking with J.R.R Tolkien's works. If I did - please accept my appology.

Best regards,
Bluest Eye


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## Úlairi (Jun 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Grond _
> *I am still unsure. Gandalf could easily be referring to his Ring Narya. Certainly it is the Elvish Ring of Fire and would have been imbued with the power of Anor when it was made by Celebrimbor. I don't think we will ever reach a definite conclustion on this. *



Stick to what sounds true Grond. Imbued with the power of Anor? Plausible, yet IMO improbable. Wielder of the *Flame*... Flame = Power? Hmmmm...interesting. Flame could mean power in this context, and for sure there is an undiscernable subtext that I would love to get to the bottom of, but there is no way. Mithrandir2003, I am glad that you have seen reason, it could be Glamdring, but I seriously doubt and I mean seriously. I am quite happy to say that the Flame of Anor is the Flame Imperishable (Iluvatar), and that Gandalf wields him ie his power, however, we can never discern the subtext, which is extremely aggravating.


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## Carantalath (Sep 4, 2002)

*What does Gandalf mean?*

In the Fellowship of the Ring, in the Bridge of Khazad-dum chapter, Gandalf is on the bridge with the balrog and he says something like 'you can not pass. I am the servant of the secret fire, wielder of the flame of anor.' Then he says some thing about flame of udin.

Now, what on earth does he mean? What are the flame of anor and the flame of udin? I thought there was a thread somewhere a long time ago about this but I'm too lazy to go and find it. Does anyone know what Gandalf is talking about? Thanks!


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## Confusticated (Sep 4, 2002)

I'm not sure exactly what is ment by weilder of the flame of Anor, this could be some power granted to him as part of his Wizard status, or perhaps the Ring he bears...

Flame of udun as I take it, means flame of hell


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## Lantarion (Sep 4, 2002)

Welcome to the foru, Caranthalath! 
If you're too lazy to read the LotR + Silmarillion, the I suggest you get your rear in gear!! 
Heh, but seriously though. You might understand the stuff in the movie a lot better if you read the book. It's much more exciting to find facts out yourself than to hear it from somebody else, am I right?
But as you seem to be lazy (and because I have nothing better to do), I will explain the phrase.


> "You cannot pass," he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. "I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass."


This is, IMHO, one of the best quotes in the FotR. ANyway, here goes (I hope nobody beats me to it while I'm writing, it's annoying when that happens):
The 'Secret Fire' would seem to refer to the Flame Imperishable, which is the creating spirit of Ilúvatar and by which He created the Ainur. So when gandalf says he is a Servant of the [Flame Imperishable] he might mean that he is the messenger of Doom and of Ilúvatar, as he is acting out the sequnce of events to be recorded in the history of the world. 
Udûn also has a twofold meaning. It was a name for Melkor's fortress in Middle-Earth (Utumno), and was also referred to as 'Hell'. As Balrogs (Valaraukar) were spirits corrupted by melkor, the 'of Udûn' might mean that they are still serving the ourpose of their dark lord. 
The flame of Anor I am not certain of, but I think this also might have symbolic meaning. Anor is the Sindarin name for the Sun. So when gandalf says he wields the flame of [the Sun] he might mean that he carries within him a fervor and hope that the Balrog would like to quench. So this phrase is an act of defiance towards the Balrog.
"Go back to the Shadow". Well, it's quite straightforward; it means "Go home!" ("Romani ite domum." ), "Go away!". A scornful dismissal.

Any more queations? READ THE SILMARILLION!!


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## Ancalagon (Sep 4, 2002)

Hello,

You may find some of the responses in here could answer a few of your questions.


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## Carantalath (Sep 4, 2002)

Thank you everybody. By the way, I did read the Silmarillion but I got confused by a lot of the names. I plan on reading it again sometime so that I might understand it better.


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## Carantalath (Sep 4, 2002)

I went to the back of my Silmarillion book and it says that udun is Sindarian and it means tunnel. So, what I understand about this quote is that Gandalf has a little bit of the flame imperishable in him, which Iluvatar gave to all who he brought to life. Then, the flame of anor part has to do with the sun. I reread that part in the Lord of the Rings and it brings up that Gandalf used flashes of white light when he was on the bridge with the balrog. So, as it was said, anor is a name for the sun. So, Gandalf uses the light of the sun to go against the fire of the balrog. The flame of udun part is saying that the dark fire or evil fire will not help the balrog, who comes from the dark fire in tunnels.

Does that sound correct?


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## Anamatar IV (Sep 4, 2002)

i havent read the book ina a while but i had thought it was flame or Arnor. I know that makes completly no sense but...


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## pohuist (Sep 4, 2002)

You might also want to include in the expalanation the Ring of Fire Gandalf is wearing which is "secret" at the time.


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## Mithlond (Sep 4, 2002)

Anamatar IV:
In the movie i noticed Gandalf says "Wielder of the flame of Arnor".
Either they've got it wrong or he is holding the 'A' for too long, either way it doesn't sound right.


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## Confusticated (Sep 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by pohuist _
> *You might also want to include in the expalanation the Ring of Fire Gandalf is wearing which is "secret" at the time. *



The Secret Fire is that of Illuvitar as Lantarion said above. Flame of Anor may refer to the Ring though, as I said above.


Carantalath, where did you read that Udun means tunnel? I've read that it means hell.
Flame of hell also seems to describe a Balrog better than does Flame Of Tunnel.


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## Grond (Sep 5, 2002)

This has already been discussed at length in this thread Ulari's Flame of Anor thread

I will merge these two threads forthwith.


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## Confusticated (Sep 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Gil-Galad _
> *Well,Anor is the name of the Sun.The sun is a kind of giant fire,something which light goes everywhere and keeps hope alive.I would say that the ring of Gandalf has some parallels with the sun.Both they're fire and light and even hope.It's said that the ring of fire would keep people's hope ,just like the sun.During all battles when the day was coming and sun ligths always gave hope to the people in battles and they won after all.So I think the parallel between Anor and Narya is obvious. *



This too is my thoughts about what Gandalf says about "Flame of Anor"


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## Carantalath (Sep 7, 2002)

> Carantalath, where did you read that Udun means tunnel? I've read that it means hell.



Well, I was mistaken. I looked in the back of the Sil in the index thing. Look under the word 'tum' and it means valley (sorry, not tunnel but valley.) Then, it says about Utumno and then Gandalf calling the Balrog the Flame of Udun. Did anyone else see that because maybe my eyes were playing tricks on me or something...

Anyway, to correct what I said before, Gandalf says that he is servant of the secret fire (The Flame Imperishable that was put inside of him), wielder of the Flame of Anor (Either Narya or the light of the sun). Then, when Gandalf says about the Flame of Udun going back to the shadows, he means that the Balrog is the Flame of Udun and he is supposed to go back into the earth.

Is that better?


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## Gwindor (Apr 8, 2003)

*Gandalf versus the Balrog*

This seems to be quite clear to everybody, because I haven't found anyone asking about it, but anyway:
In the famous Gandalf's quote on the bridge of Khazad-Dum - what exactly does 'the Secret Fire', 'Flame of Anor', 'Udûn' and 'Shadow' mean?


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## Celebthôl (Apr 8, 2003)

heres the best place to look:

http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/

its got everything on LOTR on it, its the best LOTR website around!


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 8, 2003)

This thread might be of assisstance:

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9782


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## Gwindor (Apr 8, 2003)

So it's as I thought (and feared) ... I am stupid  .

Thanks anyway, all of you.


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## BlackCaptain (Apr 8, 2003)

The 'Secret Fire' means he is an Ainu, Maia specificaly. the Secret Fire is not findable by anyone, and if it is estinguished, life is.

Flame of Anor means that he wields the flame of the sun. This probably means that his Ring, Ring of Fire, Narya, holds the 'Flame of Anor', Flame of Sun.

Udun is just the elvish name for hell. 'Flame of Udun' means Flame from Hell.

'Go back to the Shadow' just means you better leave us alone


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## Rain-King (Apr 9, 2003)

More specifically, Udun was another name for the Pits of Angband, sometimes called Utumno. This was Morgoth's dwelling in the North of Middle Earth in the area called Beleriand in the 1st age.


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## BlackCaptain (Apr 9, 2003)

Utumno and Angband were two different places. Utumno was Melkor's first dwelling. Angband was where he 'moved' to.


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