# Whats new in the 4th age?



## Celebthôl (May 20, 2003)

In the Sil I found a very interesting quote

"...and in every age there came forth things that are new and have no foretelling."

I was intrigued with this, the best I can work on it is:

First age: Either Elves or Dwarves (or both) and maybe Orcs,

Second age: Man,

Third age: Halflings and Istarí,

Fourth age: ???

Is there anything in UT or HoME on this? Or do any of you have any ideas, suggetions inclings etc I would love to hear them.

Thôl


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## Beleg (May 20, 2003)

Elves and Dwarves both were not "brought forth" in the first age.
Same is the case with men. They too were the product of first (or in some other cases before the first) age. 

Besides the arrival of Men and Elves was foretold in the Music.


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## Lantarion (May 20, 2003)

That's true Beleg; but maybe Celebthôl was listing the races in order of what Ages they were prominent in, or when they actively appeared (after all, the Elves were much more central in the First Age than Men. The Second Age listing of Men might mean Númenor).

But that is an interesting observation, Celeb.. Maybe even Tolkien didn't know! 
Hmm.. But I can't really think of anything new that would come in the Fourth Age!


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## Theoden_king (May 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lantarion _
> *That's true Beleg; but maybe Celebthôl was listing the races in order of what Ages they were prominent in*



Then men should be listed for second age, third age and the fourth age surely? This was when they were most prominent, particularly third and fourth.


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## Idril (May 20, 2003)

The Fourth Age, men will fight against men.
The Fifth and Sixth Age, men continue to fight against men.
The Seventh Age, the rule of the cockroach.


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## Inderjit S (May 20, 2003)

In Tolkiens latter legends the First Age was said to 'start' at the awakening of Elves. Thsi fits in with his statement that each 'age' consisted of some 3,000 Y.O.S.

Hence their coming heralded the First Age. This was in the Valinorean Year 1050. Men awoke soon after, during the 'Great Rains' as residue of Manwe's clouds pushing back Melkor's clouds that had been blocking the stars. They were marooned on a island and it was in this time that their great fall occured as described in Adanels Tale. 

The Dwarves awoke not long after, and the Petty dwarves were said to be the first to enter Beleriand. They were said to be cast off's of other Dwarven mansions, problably ,considering the early nature of the Dwarves histories, Gundabad, Nogrod and Belegost.

The Fourth age nonetheless heralded some new things:

The last re-incarnation of Durin VII, and the re-establishment of Khazad-dum. 

And the Dominion of Men 'truly' came to be. Plus the possible attempt at the overthrow of King Eldarion, though this story was later abanoded by Tolkien and it was entitled 'The New Shadow' .(HoME 12)

Nothing 'new' came from the Fourth Age, excpect for the real start of the dominion of Men.


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## Celebthôl (May 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lantarion _
> *That's true Beleg; but maybe Celebthôl was listing the races in order of what Ages they were prominent in, or when they actively appeared (after all, the Elves were much more central in the First Age than Men. The Second Age listing of Men might mean Númenor).*



Thats exactly it, the Valar were not ever told when each of the races was to awake, and after the third age where the Elves leave ME and Men take over properly they were not aware of the future as they had been (from when they saw Arda from without in the very beggining). And each age brought about a new race, so i'm guessing that Mr Tolkien was planning somthing bigger...(just an after thought ), why does death always take the good ones?!


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## Theoden_king (May 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Idril _
> *The Fourth Age, men will fight against men.
> The Fifth and Sixth Age, men continue to fight against men.
> The Seventh Age, the rule of the cockroach. *



No, no, 7th Age men build machines who then turn on us then we block out the sun but the machines use us to power themselves 



> _Originally posted by Celebthôl _
> * And each age brought about a new race
> *


It is my understanding that Men came forth when the world was still in the First Age so what race came forth in the Second Age?


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## Celebthôl (May 20, 2003)

Men did, it was the age of Númenor, i.e. the most powerful time of Men, thats what i mean...


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## Arvedui (May 20, 2003)

The Númenórean Volvo Ocean Race.


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## Theoden_king (May 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Celebthôl _
> *Men did, it was the age of Númenor, i.e. the most powerful time of Men, thats what i mean... *



You said that each age brought about a new race, the Númenóreans were men, which means no new race was introduced into the world in the Second Age. Unless there was something else which I can't remember?


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## Arvedui (May 20, 2003)

The quote in Celebthôl's inital post said that:



> in every age there came forth *things* that are new and have no foretelling


So it does not have to be a race, it could be something else, which could account for Númenór in the Second Age.
I still don't have a clue about the fourth age, though...


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## Inderjit S (May 20, 2003)

> Thats exactly it, the Valar were not ever told when each of the races was to awake, and after the third age where the Elves leave ME



All Elves didn't leave in the T.A That was the Noldor and some Sindar. The majority of the Sylvan and Avari Elves remained in M-E.

Also, I dont see any *new* races come in the S.A or T.A

Hobbits had been in existence for some time, since the 'Elder Days' as Tolkien states in his prolouge they had only come into contact with Numenorean peoples upon entry into Eriador though previously they may have lived with the Northmen in Rhovanion.

The Istari had 'existed', prior to the T.A and I dont see how 5 peoples can constitute a race. Even then, Tolkiens last views were that the 'Blue Wizards;' came in the S.A and there names were Morinehtar and Romestamo.

It seems to me that the Numenoreans were 'akin' to men before their downfall, thus, for a long time, they were able to choose when to die. But they were still held to be 'men'.


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## Theoden_king (May 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Celebthôl _
> *And each age brought about a new race *



So either this was a mistake and it was meant to say things or it was meant to say race inwhich case there was no new race in the Second Age. If we are talking *things* then yes I suppose the men of Númenór were things.


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## Celebthôl (May 20, 2003)

my bad, just follow Mr Tolkiens quote, i am mierly a vessel from whence it flowed  i only half understand this, its not just races it is anything big, though it was a race in the T.A. 

No not all Elves left ME, but it was their decline, they were no longer powerful, it was the time of Men alone from the fourth age onwards, all other speeking races declined...


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## Theoden_king (May 20, 2003)

So whatever is new could be the tiniest little thing that nobody even notices? A new flower or bird could have been introduced into the world in the Fourth Age, it just wasn't important enough to make any documentation about.


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## Celebthôl (May 20, 2003)

No it has a big thing, 

1st age, Elves, Men, Dwarves, possibly Orcs, (all big)

2nd age, Númenor, new Dark Lord (big again)

3rd age, Halflings, Istarí (also big)

these are all significant, are they not, a new flower isnt, it blatently have to be a significant thing...


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## Theoden_king (May 20, 2003)

A significant thing but not necessarily a race? How about the fact that the free peoples of Middle Earth were free from a dark lord? Thats a pretty big thing.


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## Inderjit S (May 20, 2003)

He says new THINGS not races, so let me see If I can do this:

First age-Coming of Elves, Men, Orcs, Trolls, Ents, Dwarves and others. Silmarils created, WoTJ, coming of Earendil, Execution of Morgoth and his fleeing to the void.


Second age-Foundation of Numenor, Creation of Rings of Power, War of Elves and Sauron, fall of Numenor, Last Alliance. 

Third Age: Sauron rises again, destruction of Ring and Sauron is now impotent, no more singular, mythical powers of evil. Galadriel, Elrond and many Sindar and Noldor leave M-E. New King in Gondor, the last Eldar+Man union.

Fourth age: Wanings of Elves, Domionion of men comes to be, re-incarnation of Last Durin, waning of all speaking creatures apart from Men. 

Don't these events fit in with the quote supplied at the start of the thread?


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## Celebthôl (May 20, 2003)

yes, though you missed out Hobbits and Istarí


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## Theoden_king (May 20, 2003)

It's unclear when the coming of hobbits occured it could have been in the Second Age or the Third Age


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## Celebthôl (May 20, 2003)

oh, well yeah, but the who Wizard thing though


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## Theoden_king (May 20, 2003)

Which was when? wasn't the Istari in existence before the counting of time even began?


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## Celebthôl (May 20, 2003)

no, they were the five that came to counter Sauron about 1000 years into the T.A.


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## Theoden_king (May 20, 2003)

Yes they came then but I said weren't they in existence before that? A long time before that.


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## Inderjit S (May 20, 2003)

The Istari were originally Maia. So they existed long before the T.A. There may have been a 'Istari' group amongst the Maia in Aman.

As I have mentioned, Tolkien held the view that the Blue Wizards came into the S.A (HoME 12, Last Writings) as opposed to the Alatar/Pallando story given in U.T.


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## Beleg (May 20, 2003)

> In Tolkiens latter legends the First Age was said to 'start' at the awakening of Elves.* Thsi fits in with his statement that each 'age' consisted of some 3,000 Y.O.S. Hence their coming heralded the First Age. This was in the Valinorean Year 1050. *Men awoke soon after, during the 'Great Rains' as residue of Manwe's clouds pushing back Melkor's clouds that had been blocking the stars. They were marooned on a island and it was in this time that their great fall occured as described in Adanels Tale.





In 1250 Y.O.T. 


> [In this time also, it is said among the Sindar, the
> Naugrim (6) whom we also name the Nornwaith (the Dwarves)
> came over the mountains into Beleriand and became known to
> the Elves



About the coming of men, Taken from the Grey Annals,



> At the first Sunrise, it is said, Men, the younger children
> of Iluvatar, awoke in Hildorien in the midmost regions of THE world. The Atani they were named; but the Eldar called them
> also the Hildi, the



This shows that Men Indeed came last into Beleriand, and not soon after Elves. The Khazadul were reborn in between them. I don't know from which tale you have taken the excerpt about The Residue Point, but If the tale is in any Volume 1 to 10 then this concept (given in Grey Annals) should be given preference over your one, since this might be the last word Tolkien had to utter on this subject. 

And I think we are here talking about the ages of Sun, NOT the ages of children of Illuvatar. 



> In those days, in the Year one thousand and fifty of the Valar, the Elves awoke in Kuivienen and the First Age of the Children of Iluvatar began.


 The age of children of Eru is apparantly different from the Age of Sun, and in here apparantly the Question was raised about the ages of Sun. 
The first age of sun began with the awakening of man and Rising of Sun, as Said in Grey Annals and Quenta Silmarillion....But offcourse it's the matter of which account you deem more canonical. 







> It's unclear when the coming of hobbits occured it could have been in the Second Age or the Third Age



The coming of Hobbit's in Eriador happened in the 3rd Age for sure. We don't know the exact time or date about the coming of Hobbit's in Rhov, and In the Vales of Anduin. But it must have been after the start of third age for surely some of the hobbit's might have helped the Company of Isuldur at Gladden Fields.


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## baragund (May 20, 2003)

Here is another way to look at the question. Perhaps JRRT was not thinking about beings or races but how about major events which nobody foresaw that had the result of shaping the age?

This opens up all kinds of possibilities. Here is one:

1st Age: The voyage of Earendil
2nd Age: The "imprisonment" of Sauron by Ar-Pharazon
3rd Age: Bilbo finding The One Ring in the Misty Mountains
4th Age: I don't know if anybody can say since there is so little information on what went on after the war of the Ring. How about the voyage of Aelfwine to Tol Eressea as described in The Book of Lost Tales, Vol. 1?


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## Beleg (May 20, 2003)

> This opens up all kinds of possibilities.



First Age: Coming of the Noldo to Beleriand.

Second Age: The forging of One Ring.

Third Age: Aragon's arrival at Pelegar (Possibly) 

Fourth Age: The Rise of the New Shadow?


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## Celebthôl (May 20, 2003)

well serficed to say there is the undying fact that a new and different "things" came about during each age...


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## Inderjit S (May 20, 2003)

> 1st Age: The voyage of Earendil



That was already known by the Valar who were told of it by Namo in the 'Statute of Finwe and Miriel.

Also notice Eonwe's greeting to Earendil when he arrived. It is apparent that some people knew what it was so the 'suprise' element was missing since it had been foresworn and I mentioned it because it was one of the defining moment of the F.A.



> How about the voyage of Aelfwine to Tol Eressea as described in The Book of Lost Tales, Vol. 1?



That was a long time after the Fourth age, being set some few hundred years ago and I think that idea may have been dropped anyway, though Elfwine is mentioned late on in his works, (Dangweth Pengolod to name but one) Tolkien may have chosen Bilbo as the composer of the Silmarillion rather then Elfwine, though Tolkien had long ceased work on the Quenta itself.

Beleg-I am working in the round earth cosmolgy. The 'Grey Annals' was when Tolkien was working on the Silmarillion. Tolkien's latter essays (Of D & M, M.T) all work with the cosmology that men awoke soon after the Elves and the fact that Arda was round from creation. Tolkien states that the Sun/Moon theory was a Numenorean myth. Why isn't Tolkien's REVISION upon his OLD IDEAS the correct one, the ones I have mentioned are the preferences. The tale is given in HoME 10, under the 'Athrabeth' other notes. Why would Tolkien spend years revising the issues and discount it as a Numenorean myth if it wasn't true? It is obvious that Tolkien wasn't happy with it and wanted to change it.


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## Ingolmin (Jan 6, 2017)

In the Fourth Age- Men, dwarves and hobbits.
This is because men ruled a lot of lands. Dwarves ruled Erebor, Iron Hills and later also got their ancient home Khazaddum. Hobbits were not kings but still they had come into the rhymes and stories of those around Middle Earth. They had become rather an important sort of people.


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