# Sauron not noticing the One ring



## Anarchist (Mar 28, 2002)

To start with, Frodo and Sam entered Mordor. Shelob attacked them and poisoned Frodo. Then Sam made the choice and took the ring. Noticing the Orcs he puts it on. Now the questions start:
Why didn't Sauron notice the intrudors since Frodo was carrying the one he wants above all? It is after all a part of himself (he put much of his evilness in it). Say he just doesn't notice it, then why then, when Sam *puts it on* even then he doesn't notice it? Finally, why when Frodo puts it on at Mount Doom, only then he realizes that the One is in Mordor?
I can understand that he didn't notice it when it was not wore by anyone. But what the heck, Sam put it on for a rather long time. And when Frodo used it in places very far from Mordor, Sauron was able to see him. Why not now? Your opinions.


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## aragil (Mar 28, 2002)

My opinion is that Sauron didn't notice Frodo all the other times that Frodo wore the ring (or Bilbo, for that matter). If Sauron had, then there would have been nine black guests 'winging' their way to the farewell party for Bilbo. Even at Amon Hen Sauron was not able to pin down the ring, although Frodo did have a 'near miss'.
From what other members have posted here (with which I agree) it seems that Sauron only noticed Frodo at Sammath Naur because Frodo was claiming the ring as his own, which was a first-time event in the story.
Come to think of it, this mirrors how Celebrimbor was aware of Sauron when the Dark Lord put on the ring and claimed Middle-earth.


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## Anarchist (Mar 28, 2002)

Aragil I made exactly the thoughts you did but let me give you a quote fro the chapter "The breaking of the Fellowship" in the book "The fellowship of the ring":


> ...And suddently he felt the Eye. There was an eye in the Dark Tower that did not sleep.He knew that it had become aware of his gaze. A fierce eager will was there. It leaped towards him; almost like a finger he felt it, searching for him. Very soon it would nail him down, know just exaclty where he was...


This happened after Boromir attacked Frodo and Frodo put the ring on. The Eye of Sauron noticed Frodo even from that far. And it is quite clear that at this point, Frodo didn't want the ring that much. He was balancing between keeping it on or getting it off.


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## Greenwood (Mar 28, 2002)

Anarchist

First, be careful not to confuse the movie with the books. It is only in the movie that Sauron is aware of Frodo wearing the Ring far from Mordor. In the books the only time Sauron is aware of Frodo wearing the Ring is at Amon Hen and at Orodruin. 

Also in the books it seems that Sauron is only aware of the Ring if someone is actually wearing it, not merely carrying it. Also, in the book the only two times Sauron is aware of Frodo wearing the Ring seem to be in special places: Amon Hen (the Seat of Seeing) and Orodruin (the heart of Mordor and wear the Ring was forged). When Frodo puts the Ring on after leaving the top of Amon Hen Sauron is not aware of him (some of us have never really liked that  ). When Sam wears the Ring in the Pass of Cirith Ungol, Sauron is not really aware of him, but I believe the book says something about Sauron being disturbed ("I feel a great disturbance in the Force, Luke."  ), but that he is unable to pierce the webs of shadow he has created around the borders of his own land. (I can give you the exact quote this evening after I get home and check my copy of the book, unless someone else comes up with it before then.)


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## Tar-Palantir (Mar 28, 2002)

My personal opinion is that Amon Hen was a "special" place, an "amplifier" of sorts. As for Sam in Mordor, I tend to think that some kind of desire for power has something to do with Sauron's being able to sense when someone has the Ring on. In other words, he didn't notice when Smeagol wore it (maybe Sauron was preoccupied, but even so), Bilbo, Frodo (except at Amon Hen & Mt Doom), and Samwise either. And I'm not so sure that if Frodo had "claimed" the Ring in say....Rivendell, that Sauron would have noticed either.


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## Strider97 (Mar 28, 2002)

Thanks Anarchist- That was the quote I was going to look up when I got home. Everytime Frodo used the ring from Weathertop on he though or felt the eye looking for him.In Mordor the strngth of the ring would have been greater and the terrain to scan that much less. Why didn't Sauron at least feel the ring. The answer is of course that it was not Tolkien's intent but the internal logic is not there. I always wondered about Tolkien's view of evil as having greater power then good but being cursed by stupidity. How could someone who on one hand could coordinate large armies, have the corsairs scheduuled to arrive, constructed the instruments of war that he did fail to protect his borders and not forsee the basic strategies of his enemies.


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## Anarchist (Mar 28, 2002)

Good one the thing about cursed with stupidity. Very fine opinions but they don't convince me yet about the question. Sauron was searching intently for the ring. And Sam put it *inside* the borders of Mordor (correct me if I am wrong). Was Sauron THAT stupid not to see a part of his evil self inside his own borders? But an idea came to me concerning the person who had the ring on and the total duration he had it on. Frodo had put the ring a couple of time before so it had the time to make it's work inside him. But Sam had put it on for the first time inside Mordor. It didn't have much chance to work on him. Added to this, Sauron's overmuching pride maybe didn't allow him even to think that anyone would have the guts to try and enter into Mordor and destroy the ring.


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## Grond (Mar 28, 2002)

I agree with you Strider97. If there was only one place in the whole of Middle-earth where my Ring of Power could be destroyed... you can be darn sure that anyone wanting to get there would have one hell of a time. 

All of the entrances would have been guarded by Olog-hai and garrison upon garrison of orcs and the like. This is countered by Tolkien's assertion that Sauron could not comprehend anyone even toying with the idea of destroying the beautiful bauble. That is one of the weak links in the whole story for me. But it still made a beautiful story even so.


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## Strider97 (Mar 28, 2002)

Anarcist- Your last point about Sauron not believiing that someone would try to destroy the ring is the reason many would give -See Thread 'Saurons Error". I agree with you that Sauron should have at least felt the rings presence when Sam put it on and used it. Frodo did not claim it for his own at Amon Hen, he simply used it. In Galadriels mirror he was not even wearing it.


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## Dhôn-Buri-Dhôn (Mar 28, 2002)

Well, of course, the Mirror of Galadriel may have simply given Frodo a _vision_ of the Eye; Sauron may not have been on the other end of the line at the time.

The problem of Sam is the more difficult one, I think. If he wasn't actually inside Mordor, he was so close as to make no difference. The only explanation I can think of is that it was Sam's first use of the Ring. Sam had a down-to-earth personality; there were no Nazgul around, as there were for Frodo on Weathertop; and Cirith Ungol wasn't one of the "special places" like Amon Hen. Maybe you can think of Sauron's Eye as a kind of radar, and Sam had a very low "cross-section" at the time. Samwise = stealth technology?

Still, it's pretty careless of Sauron to miss that. Was he distracted at the time, perhaps? Was the Pelennor Fields battle underway?


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## Greenwood (Mar 29, 2002)

Ok. I found it. In The Tower of Cirith Ungol chapter in ROTK after Sam leaves Shelob's tunnel and his heading up to the crown of the pass he puts the Ring on for the second time. The book has the following passage: "Without any clear purpose he drew out the Ring and put it on again. Immediately he felt the great burden of its weight, and felt afresh, but now more strong and urgent than eer, the malice of the Eye of Mordor, searching, *trying to pierce the shadows that it had made for its own defence, but which now hindered it in its unquiet and doubt.*" [emphasis added] A few paragraphs later as Sam actually crosses in to Mordor we have the following: "He took off the Ring, moved it may be by some deep premonition of danger, though to himself he thought only that he wished to see more clearly."

Thus we have Tolkien explaining Sauron's unawareness of Sam wearing the Ring on the very borders of Mordor as a result of Sauron's own powers.


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## Beleg Strongbow (Mar 29, 2002)

i think mayb that sauron wasn't lookin that way (his eye) was away at minas tirith
and at mount doom it was so close not to be missed


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## Strider97 (Mar 29, 2002)

"Without any clear purpose he drew out the Ring and put it on again. Immediately he felt the great burden of its weight, and felt afresh, but now more strong and urgent than eer, the malice of the Eye of Mordor, searching, trying to pierce the shadows that it had made for its own defence, but which now hindered it in its unquiet and doubt." [emphasis added] A few paragraphs later as Sam actually crosses in to Mordor we have the following: "He took off the Ring, moved it may be by some deep premonition of danger, though to himself he thought only that he wished to see more clearly." 

Thus we have Tolkien explaining Sauron's unawareness of Sam wearing the Ring on the very borders of Mordor as a result of Sauron's own powers.

Thansk Greenwood- However may I use the same evidence and turn it around. "The eye was looking trying to pierce the shadows that it(Sauron) had made for its own defence". Sauron felt the presence of the ring right outside of his defensive shield. Then comes word that they have a halfling captured wearing a mithril coat, then he finds out he escapes with the aid of a large warrior-

Either he (Sauron) is incredibly stupid or Tolkien(who I usually defend to the last breath) has a plot flaw.

No way in Eru's middle earth would I not have had one nazgul and a gazillion orcs sitting their fat arses down at Mt. Doom.

Of course then we would not have a happy resolution to the story.


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## Greenwood (Mar 29, 2002)

Strider97

I suppose it comes down to a question of how specific a feeling Sauron has during this episode with Sam. Going back to the Amon Hen incident, after Frodo removes the Ring Sauron completely misses him on Amon Hen: "A black shadow seemed to pass like an arm above him; it missed Amon Hen and groped out west and faded." If Sauron's awareness is equally vague when Sam has the Ring on in the Pass of Cirith Ungol, Sauron might have thought the Ring was away west of Cirith Ungol, as he did at Amon Hen. This would lead him to think that he had been troubled by someone wearing the Ring over near Minas Tirith; afterall the seige of Gondor was going on at that moment.

I am not saying you do not have a point in your reservations. Sam wearing the Ring on the very borders of Mordor has always bothered me a bit too. What I am saying is that Tolkien seems to have been aware of the plot problem himself and addressed it. Since he is the one that decides on the powers of his characters, as long as he keeps an internal consistency in the story and does not wildly violate the logic of his own story, I am willing to cut him some slack.

[edit: just correcting some old typos  ]


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## Strider97 (Mar 29, 2002)

I concur that it was not wildly inconsistent and that Tolkien did see it and covered it for the purpose of the plot. History is always told from the eyes of the victor. Tolkien tells his history from the eyes of the good guys/victors- As a student of History I like to look at the story from the eyes of the losers and figure out the flaws in their strategies, characters or analysis that casued their failure. As Sun Tzu says if you only know yourself, You will be victorious half of the time; If you only know your enemy, you will be victorious half of the time; but if you know both yourself and the enemy you will be victorious all of the time.

Anyway- I just thought it was an interesting point-


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## Mithrandir (Mar 29, 2002)

Wow this is one good discussion here. Now everyone has very valid arguments but there is one thing I have not heard brought up. 

Saron was completely distracted at this time. He was in the middle of a war at the exact same time of Sam's putting on of the ring. Not only this but he was having problems with Sauruman, and I am pretty sure he thought that Frodo was in the west with everyone else. The last thing he expected was for the ring to be brought into his own homeland, ripe for him to take. You see it was actually the perfect time for Sam to put on the ring because Sauron was too busy to see it. Sam didn't know this, but he got lucky. I feel this is where your answer lies. Tolkien did not have a plot failure, nor did he just leave it out, the answer is always there, just look hard enough.
~Mithers


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## Strider97 (Mar 29, 2002)

I regret the words plot flaw-
I realy feel that Sauron was distracted by events and as Tolkien desribed Saurons state of mind seeing Frodo at Mt. Doom all the strategies of his enemies were laid bare before him. It was good timing for Sam to wear the ring but Tolkien acknowledged an action by Sauron, looking for the ring so he also acknowledged that Sauron knew it was somewhere close. The events caught up with him and he overlooked the fact perhaps but with everything else turning aginst him in the war you would have thought he would have considered this option.

Sauron had his trap set at the gates of Mordor.
He knew the armies massing against him were insufficient to defeat his forces.
He had 8 Nazgul left.
You would think that he would use one to find the missing halfling.


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## Goro Shimura (Mar 29, 2002)

Anyone that plays chess can understand what happened to Sauron.

How often is it that a person get's several pieces up in a game... and then... just as he sets up what he thinks is an awesome attack... he finds himself destroyed with a rudimentary back rank mate.

The worst thing that can happen with you in chess is to become over confident because you think you opponent is stupid. You get so lost in your own plans that you don't realize that the seemingly pointless move he just made is actually a killer. All you think about is the final move that _you_ want to make-- but you never get the chance!

Now... add to the above a time limit... you know you only have seconds to make a move... everything counts... the pressure is enormous....

Making strategic blunders is part of life... and history: especially when the stakes are high.

I think we tend to be over critical of the military decisions of Sauron, Gandalf, Aragorn, etc.

These are people-- not artificial intelligences!


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## Greenwood (Mar 29, 2002)

> He had 8 Nazgul left.
> You would think that he would use one to find the missing halfling.



They didn't exactly cover themselves in glory the last time Sauron sent them out after hobbits; and there were nine of them then.


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## Varda (Mar 30, 2002)

Back to the Amon Hen incident: Don't forget Gandalf was helping Frodo by interfering with Sauron and causing his "arm" to miss him entirely.


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## Anarchist (Mar 30, 2002)

Well I guess we can say that Sauron had a "chess accident". He was over confident with his "perfect" strategy that he missed the most dangerous probability. This happens a lot not only in chess games but also in war. When your opponent is clever and you don't count his cleverness you loose (like Xerxes and Alexander the Great). Butwhy did Sauron set the shadows that then he couldn't pierce? Who had the "thechnology" to look inside his area and find out his plans? Maybe the Palantir could be an answer? I don't really know yet. What did he have to gain from this camouflage he created for himself, if he couldn't see clearly what was going on outside his land?
Greenwood the Nazgul where 9 but at thus time only 8 where activated. The other one was destroyed by Eowyn and it would take some time to return to his "form".


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## Strider97 (Mar 30, 2002)

After the excape from the tower and by the time Sauron had received the mithril coat and sword I believe that the witch-king had been destroyed and only 8 were left. Irregardless only one or two could have searched for the missing halfling. Sauron had trained with the best and been planning this for over a thousand years. You would have thought he would be more careful.


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## Greenwood (Mar 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Varda _
> Back to the Amon Hen incident: Don't forget Gandalf was helping Frodo by interfering with Sauron and causing his "arm" to miss him entirely.



I believe Gandalf's input was to get Frodo to remove the Ring before Sauron found him. Other than that I don't think there is any evidence Gandalf "interefered" directly with Sauron at Amon Hen.



> _Originally posted by Anarchist_
> Greenwood the Nazgul where 9 but at thus time only 8 where activated. The other one was destroyed by Eowyn and it would take some time to return to his "form".



The head Nazgul was a man, not a Maia like Sauron or Gandalf. Once he was slain by Merry and Eowyn, he was gone for good.

In any event, my last post was meant mainly as a joke that the Nazgul had failed earlier. I did not really mean it as a serious argument.


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## Rangerdave (Mar 30, 2002)

*Notice of ring*

The only difference that I can detect in the wearing of the One Ring, is that when Frodo put the ring on at Mt Doom he claimed mastery of it. So this would lead me to believe that the actual wearing of the ring is less important than the attempt to bend the power of the ring to one's will.

Of course I could be wrong
I often am

RD


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## aragil (Mar 30, 2002)

In this case I don't think that you are, RD. 
Looking back at all the instances of Sauron 'searching for the ring', it seems that this was probably done with the Palantir. Having just read the Palantir passage from UT this morning, this seems pretty consistent with descriptions of how the searching is accomplished. The example given in UT is Denethor looking for Theoden and the Riders of Rohan. Denethor sits on the the Southeast side of the Palantir, so that he is looking Northwest. He can continue scanning out farther in that direction until he sees riders, and then he can focus in until he sees one he recognizes, like Gandalf or Theoden. Sauron was probably doing the same thing when Frodo was on Amon Hen: looking to the Northwest (missing Frodo) and continuing to look farther in that direction. The situation with Sam on the borders of Mordor could be similar, with the added obstacle of Sauron's own shroud. There is a discussion in the Palantir chapter that those who were aware of the Palantir could accomplish some sort of shroud to obscure themselves from it. Certainly Galadriel appeared to be shrouding herself from the Palantir of Sauron (from what she tells Frodo and Sam at the mirror), and probably Sauron was shrouding himself from the Palantir of Denethor. Perhaps it was Sauron's shroud actually defeating the Palantir that Tolkien was describing in Greenwood's above quote? 
In any case, Sauron was not in 'search' mode when Frodo claimed the ring. I doubt that Sauron just happened to be peering through the Palantir in the direction of Mt. Doom (as opposed to the Black Gates) right at that time. I believe that Frodo's claiming of the ring resulted in an awareness by Sauron which was qualitatively different then the vague awareness he had when he was 'searching' for the ring. I'll reiterate what I said before- Celebrimbor was aware of Sauron in the same way when Sauron first forged the One Ring and claimed Middle Earth.


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## Strider97 (Mar 30, 2002)

Those are excellent points-

Every time after Amon Hen that one of them wore the ring they felt that Sauron was looking for them. With the war going on he just happened to be using the Palantir. I don't quite buy that.

The point that he only really notices when someone is using the power of the ring for domination or control rather then the incdental power of invisbility is a possibility. That leads credence to the argument that Sauron would have known if the ring was being used to cause his reversals on the battlefield. Since he did not sense that he still did not know where the ring was and should of covered his backside at Mt. Doom.


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## Anarchist (Mar 31, 2002)

Very strong points here I must admit. The one about the palantir almost convinced me. I don't know a lot about the palantir and how they work. But I always thought that Sauron could feel when someone was wearing the ring. He was extremely connected with it. Don't forget how he was defeated and almost destroyed when it was cut off his hand and finally his complete destruction when the ring was melt. So someone could wonder how the heck he couldn't feel it when Sam put it on. Studying the map I noticed how close Cirith Ungol is to Barad Dhur. Also, continuing about the palantir (after studying the map), if Sauron had his sight turned to Minas Tirith, he had to have his sight turned to Cirith Ungol, near which was Sam when he put on the ring. Don't misunderstand me but I guess that Tolkien just didn't notice this fact that much but ignored it in a way so he could continue with the scenario he had in mind. I believe he added the mist created by Sauron to partially explain this question I set on the beginning.
Greenwood, I disagree that the Nazgul disappeared when they were slain. What about the fort near Rivendell, when they were drowned? They didn't just disappeared, but returned to their master and started to take their form again. Thay didn't disappear till their master did. We could make a nice thread out of it.


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## Greenwood (Apr 1, 2002)

> Greenwood, I disagree that the Nazgul disappeared when they were slain. What about the fort near Rivendell, when they were drowned? They didn't just disappeared, but returned to their master and started to take their form again. Thay didn't disappear till their master did. We could make a nice thread out of it.



Anarchist

The Nazgul were not "slain" or "drowned" at the Ford of Bruinen. They merely lost their horses and their cloaks and such. Gandalf tells Frodo: "Their horses must have perished, and without them they are crippled. But the Ringwraiths themselves cannot be so easily destroyed." Until the Ring was destroyed, only one of the Nazgul were slain and that was the head Nazgul slain by Merry and Eowyn in the battle before Minas Tirith.


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## Grond (Apr 2, 2002)

In the appendix of LotR it makes it clear (at least to me) that the Lord of the Nazgul was "slain" by Merry and Eowyn. Read that and then get back to me Anarchist.


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## Eonwe (Apr 2, 2002)

Here we go again  If Harad was here he would jump all over this  All IMHO:

1) I think that the Ring made Frodo turn his gaze to Barad-dur. If you read the passage on Amon Hen, I think it is clear it was against Frodo's will to look at Barad-dur. So instead of Frodo using the Ring, it used him.

2) The difference between Frodo on Amon Hen, and Frodo off Amon Hen, is similar to Sam over the crest of the pass next to the tower of Cirith Ungol and Sam West of the crest of the pass. Same over the crest is in direct line with the Barad-dur, nothing in between. Sam West of the crest is not in direct-line. There is somehow a means for the Ring to see through Frodo's eyes on Amon Hen where Sauron is. But off Amon Hen, it can't use his sight (enhanced by Amon Hen itself) to find Sauron. There would also be a way for the Ring to see through Sam's eyes over the crest of the pass (he can then see Orodruin, and possibly Barad-dur), IF he kept the Ring on long enough (Sam says "he'd see me pretty quick if I put the Ring on now").

3) I think that it takes TIME for the RING to use the person wearing it. The will inside the Ring somehow is able to do the following when Frodo wears it on Amon Hen, long enough:
a) Frodo can see very far, almost magically far, beyond horizons, like with a Palantir on Amon Hen with the Ring on. Possibly due to Amon Hen, enhanced by the power of the Ring.
b) It can somehow sense where the will of Sauron is, (in the book it says a "fierce eager will" was sensed by Frodo in Barad-dur) and turn Frodo's gaze towards Barad-dur. Somehow Sauron either knows that someone is looking at him with the Ring on, or he is sent some kind of signal to look in the direction of Frodo (!).

I think if you look at it like the person wearing the Ring has to use it, you come up with all kinds of inconsistencies. But if you take the viewpoint that the person wearing the Ring can be used by the Ring (i.e. the Ring is able to use the powers of the person wearing it, if the person wearing it doesn't have enough will to overcome it) it makes more sense.


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## Anarchist (Apr 2, 2002)

Some of Eonwe's points put me into thoughts again. To begin with, we saw that some powerful people, like Gandalf and Galadriel, didn't want to take tha ring because they would fall into evil themslves. Maybe the effect of the ring and so the ability of Sauron to see the person who wears it has something to do with the person itself. Maybe if it was wore by Gandalf, Sauron would had seen him. But, everyone will admit this, Sam was maybe the noblest and simplest heroe of the tale. He never had any power in his hands and was pushed in this adventure only from friendship for Frodo. The ring, besides making him invincible, had no instant effect on him. We could all see how Gandalf didn't even touch the ring back in Bilbo's house, when he was talking to Frodo. Maybe he was afraid that the ring would have instant effect on him.
I am telling these things so that I give a clear opinion that the ability of Sauron to see and sence the person who is wearing it is connected with the person. That's about all.


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## Rangerdave (Apr 2, 2002)

*Excellent*

Dear Eonwe.

Good point, well said, praise him with high praise.

Certanly the ring has a will of its own and uses its bearers. And now that I think about it, I feel that our two points can work together to form a workable solution to this problem. Can the answer be that Sauron did not notice Sam's use of the ring because of 1) Sam's not seeking to gain mastery of the Ring's power; and 2) the Ring's lack of raw material to work with. 

Now don't get me wrong, I adore the character of Samwise Gamgee, but he is not the sharpest tool in the shed if you know what I mean. The Ring may have limited effect on Sam for the same reason it had no effect on Big Tom Bambadil. Their hearts were pure, but their minds are simple. (simple in a good Bhuddist way, not the pig-stupid redneck way)

Let me know what you think.
RD


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## Eonwe (Apr 3, 2002)

Thanks RD.

I agree I guess about Sam. I think that the time factor is more evident in the book, i.e. the Ring doesn't yank Frodo's eyes to Barad-dur right away, it takes time for it to see through him I guess (notice he is able to look just about everywhere else for a while). Frodo on Amon Hen is able to see much more than simple Frodo, and simple Sam without any other powers is, well, simple.

I think if Sam had kept it on for a while (even with the Ring off, he feels like he is a menacing shadow on the borders of Mordor) and let it become accustomed to him, it would have looked through him at Barad-dur eventually and Sauron would have started searching for him, like he searched for Frodo. But the point is he didn't let it have any time, he took it off right after he crossed the pass.

Gandalf or Galadriel on the other hand, are a different matter, with Gandalf especially having powers even in his Gandalf the Grey days the Ring would greatly enhance.

One minor point about rednecks, there is also a level known as "pig-stupid redneck with chains in the back of the pickup" from my days in Blacksburg VA.

Also -- there was a point earlier, I think by Greenwood saying that Gandalf didn't directly vie with Sauron over Frodo when Frodo had the Ring on Amon Hen. I guess I slightly disagree with this, because later in Fangorn Gandalf says he was weary after his struggle with the Dark Lord (or Tower?).


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## Hanne (Apr 4, 2002)

I think it's very strange that Sauron almost never sees the Ring.Gandalf said that al his thougts were bend on it,right?And he can see true everything!!Ok, maybe he was busy with Minas Tirith but was he looking for 24 hours at Minas Tirith???It is also more likely for Sauron to see the Ring in Rivendel then in Mordor because he doesn't expect to see him there.


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## Anarchist (Apr 4, 2002)

Hanne, I guess your question is correct. The answer, I guess, is in Sauron's pride. One can easily notice how proud the evil guys become in Tolkien's world. So, Sauron didn't expect the ring to come inside his borders. Maybe he thought the ones who found it would flee very far away to hide it. He thought perhaps that they would be overwhelmed by his great military power. Maybe his plan was to destroy first Minas Tirith and then go, pick his ring up and rule ME. Bad luck right? As we say in my country, he was lsearching for it in the sky and he found it on earth. It was too late though. I also bet on the nobleness of Sam, as I wrote abouve. I guess we are all working on the same ideas.


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## Rangerdave (Apr 5, 2002)

*All his thoughts...*



> Gandalf said that al his thougts were bend on it


Dear Hanne. 
I don't think that having one's thoughts on something and actually seeing it are the same thing. Certainly Sauron would be thinking about the One Ring more often than any other subject, but does that mean he can see it clearly? I would have to say no. If that were the case, Sauron should have know every step in the rings travels from his own finger thourgh the river, under the mountain, to the Shire and so on.

My thoughts bend to Elle Macpherson, but I've never actually seen her in person. Sorry, bad joke but you get the point.

Please don't take offense; while I respect your argument, I must disagree with your conclussions.

RD


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## Hanne (Apr 5, 2002)

You're right but I didn't ment it that way!!!I ment that Sauron thinks a lot of it so he searches also a lot.And I will never take offense ,this forum is here for giving your oppinion,right?How more opinions,how better!!!!


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## Unicef (Apr 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Strider97 _
> *I concur that it was not wildly inconsistent and that Tolkien did see it and covered it for the purpose of the plot. History is always told from the eyes of the victor. Tolkien tells his history from the eyes of the good guys/victors- As a student of History I like to look at the story from the eyes of the losers and figure out the flaws in their strategies, characters or analysis that casued their failure. As Sun Tzu says if you only know yourself, You will be victorious half of the time; If you only know your enemy, you will be victorious half of the time; but if you know both yourself and the enemy you will be victorious all of the time.
> 
> Anyway- I just thought it was an interesting point- *



Good point Strider97, however didn't they discuss the "mind of the enemy" in the counsel of Elrond? The destruction of the Ring was the LAST thing he would think of. (In the end he was right, it took the unwitting help of Gollum). Sauron felt that one of the Captains of the West would reveal themselves with the ring sooner or later. If he forced their hand and defeated Gondor, he would be able to deal with the ring at his liesure.

Also, thanks Greenwood for the right passage to point out that Sam was not in Mordor when he wore the ring. I'm sure Sauron could sense the ring, but it wasn't like GPS, he couldn't hone in on it's exact location, otherwise, why not just take it from Gollum in the Mountains, or when Bilbo wore it close to Dol Gildur in Mirkwood (Going back to The Hobbit)?

Finally, he was aware that there may have been a spy loose in Mordor, but think about it, at that point what is one spy going to accomplish when his overwhelming armies are on the move to what he thinks is the decisive battle? I'm sure that there were spies from both sides scouting the lands as best they could. What do you think Farimir was doing in Ithilien? Guerilla tactics, scouting and harrasing the enemies movements. Let the orcs search for the spy, if the battle of the Pelanor Fields and Gondor are successful for Sauron, who is the spy going to tell? Resistance at that point would be inconsequential.


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## Anarchist (Apr 6, 2002)

> _ Originally posted by Unicef _
> *
> Also, thanks Greenwood for the right passage to point out that Sam was not in Mordor when he wore the ring. I'm sure Sauron could sense the ring, but it wasn't like GPS, he couldn't hone in on it's exact location, otherwise, why not just take it from Gollum in the Mountains, or when Bilbo wore it close to Dol Gildur in Mirkwood (Going back to The Hobbit)? *



Dear Unicef, this point isn't very strong. It is different to locate the ring while it's under tones of stone and snow and God knows what else and locate the ring when it's right outside your territory. Also, when Bilbo whas in Mirkwood, Sauron whasn't in full power. He hadn't even revealed himself. After all, at that time he was attacked by the wizards as far as I remember. It isn't the same. When Sam put it on, he was in full power.


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## Greenwood (Apr 6, 2002)

> Dear Unicef, this point isn't very strong. It is different to locate the ring while it's under tones of stone and snow and God knows what else and locate the ring when it's right outside your territory. Also, when Bilbo whas in Mirkwood, Sauron whasn't in full power. He hadn't even revealed himself. After all, at that time he was attacked by the wizards as far as I remember. It isn't the same. When Sam put it on, he was in full power.



Anarchist

Yes, Sauron was more powerful in Barad-dur than in Dol Goldur, but certainly not "full power". He could not be in "full power" without regaining the Ring. That aside, the book clearly states that Sauron could not see Sam with the Ring on in the Pass of Cirith Ungol because of his own border defences: "Without any clear purpose he drew out the Ring and put it on again. Immediately he felt the great burden of its weight, and felt afresh, but now more strong and urgent than eer, the malice of the Eye of Mordor, searching, *trying to pierce the shadows that it had made for its own defence, but which now hindered it in its unquiet and doubt*." [emphasis added]

We are dealing here with a world of magic and magic artifacts. You can not apply our modern, scientific, real world rules to it.


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## Varda (Apr 7, 2002)

This is not following the current line of discussion, but maybe the reason why Sauron didn't think that the ring would be inside his borders was because he couldn't accept that anyone would want to detroy the ring. Just as Manwe couldn't understand the evil of Melkor, Sauron couldn't understand the motives of his enemies. He was haunted with the thought that someone else would get the ring and use it for his own gain. It simply never occured to him that someone might want to destroy it.

(This point has probably already been brought up, but that is my opinion)


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## Rangerdave (Apr 7, 2002)

*Brava!*

Dear Varda.

EXCELLENT! 

Yes, Sauron was completely unable to consider the fact that the Free Peoples of Middle-Earth would reject the power of the Ring. His greatest fear was that one of power would use the ring to surplant him as Tyrant. The concept that the wise would seek to overthrough him and have no Tyrant never entered his plans. If I remember right, either Elrond or Gandalf made this point themselves: but seeing as my books are out on loan I cannot check this point.

Mental Picture: As Smeagol falls into mount Doom with the Ring, The Eye of Sauron shifts form into a little bald Sicilian who shieks "INCONCEIVABLE!"

Thanks again for the great point
RD


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## Anarchist (Apr 7, 2002)

Greenwood

Of course I agree with you that he wasn't in full power without the ring but of course you agree with me that he had become powerful enough since the days Bilbo roamed in Mirkwood.
Another point I wish to state is the one about the purposes of the one who wears the ring. It seems that Frodo, during his epic journey from Bag End to Mordor, was having an inner battle. His purposes about the ring weren'r clear. Only at the end did he decide that he didn't wish to destroy the ring, and then he had lost the battle. On the other hand, Sam had decided from the beginning that he would achieve what Frodo was trying to. He was decided to destroy the ring. No inner battle here. Sam was perhaps purer and simpler than Frodo. During all these adventures they had, we can see a lot of people being tempted to get the ring for themselves. Even the noble Gandalf was tempted in Bilbo's place. But not Sam. Maybe that's what saved him from the glance of the eye of Sauron.


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## Greenwood (Apr 7, 2002)

Varda

To corroborate your point the following is from Letter 131 of Tolkien's Letters. In it Tolkien discusses Sauron's thoughts about the Ring during the Second Age.



> The Ring was unbreakable by any smithcraft less than his own. It was indissoluble in any fire, save the undying subterranean fire where it was made ? and that was unapproachable, in Mordor. Also so great was the Ring's power of lust, that anyone who used it became mastered by it; it was beyond the strength of any will (even his own) to injure it, cast it away, or neglect it. So he thought. It was in any case on his finger.



Anarchist

I disagree that Frodo's purposes about the Ring weren't clear. Frodo's purpose throughout the journey was always to destroy the Ring. At the same time however, he was under constant assault by the corrupting power of the Ring. Even as Frodo made his final climb up Orodruin and entered the chamber of the Cracks of Doom his intention was to destroy the Ring. But in the end the Ring was too powerful. Tolkien says in letter 246:



> At the last moment the pressure of the Ring would reach its maximum - impossible, I should have said, for any one to resist, certainly after long possession, months of increasing torment, and when starved and exhausted.



Frodo in the end at the Cracks of Doom was finally overpowered by the Ring. I do not think that Sam or anyone else would have been able to do any better against the power of the Ring at the last. It is part of the logic of the story Tolkien was writing.


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