# The greatest Elf ever



## Ithrynluin

The original thread can be found here.

Wisdom, prowess in battle, a semblance of wit, generosity, humility, valour, nobility, creativity, self sacrifice... 

These are all admirable traits, but which of the Elves possessed most of these virtues, and used them for the best possible purpose?

I would like to point to the difference between someone being _born_ great (or the greatest), or someone actually _accomplishing_ great things by putting their greatness to good use. These two aspects are often made equal and interchangable.

Take into account both an Elf's positive and negative actions. Praising one positive feat and discarding all the negative deeds is not very persuasive.

Please give reasons and arguments for why you picked a certain Elf.

The poll is multiple choice, but try to pick a select few that really qualify for the title 'The greatest Elf ever'.

And please don't vote for anyone just because you consider them to be 'hot' (hint hint: Legolas). Give valid reasons for your choice.

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Here's a short description of some of the less known Elves that are on the poll:

Daeron - minstrel and loremaster of Doriath, invented runes (cirth)

Pengolodh - loremaster of Eressea, master of tongues, gathered up information for the Annals of Beleriand

Rúmil - loremaster, invented the Elvish letters

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Therefore - *
Who IS the greatest elf?*


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## YayGollum

I just went for Feanor. I'm sure that I could mention all kinds of especially great things that he did, but I like pointing out that he was the greatest to read about. Much more original and entertaining that any of those boring and normal and classically heroic types. Ick. *collapses*


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## Khôr’nagan

I picked Ecthelion, Feanor, Fingolfin, Glorfindel, Legolas, and Luthien.

_*Ecthelion-*_ Possibly the Greatest Elf warrior to live, he died while slaying Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs.

_*Feanor-*_ His skill in crafts were unsurpassed by any of the Children of Iluvatar, he created the Silmarili and the Palantiri. His spirit was so great that it incinerated his body upon leaving it.

_*Fingolfin-*_ Wise, brilliant, highly skilled warrior. With unsurpassed bravery he walked up to Angband and demanded that Morgoth fight him one on one. He dealt 7 wounds to Morgoth before being smote down.

_*Glorfindel-*_ Possibly the =Greatest Elf Lord to live, enhanced by his reincarnation and being sent back to Middle-Earth after he died while killing a Balrog. He then proceeded to fight agaist Angmar, Sauron's forces, and helped Frodo and Company on journey to Rivendell.

_*Legolas-*_ Prince of Mirkwood, great Archery and Battle skills, a member of the Fellowship of the Ring. He fought in many battles, walked the Paths of the Dead, went up against unbeatable odds, and yet still had a competition for most kills with Gimli. After Aragorn's death, he and Gimli sailed west into the Undying Lands, where no Dwarf has ever gone.

_*Luthien-*_ Part Elf and part Maia, Luthien was the greatest of all the children of Iluvatar. Blessed with great beauty and song, Luthien was able to not only overcome Morgoth and Gothmog, but even Mandos. She was the only Elf to ever return from death into the world of the Living, and what was more, she came back mortal. Her blood line is that of Numenor and the House of Elrond, extending all the way to Aragorn II himself.

These all are, in my opinion, the Greatest of all the Elves. Galadriel, Elrond, and Gil-Galad would also be here, but I decided that it would be too many people.


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## Ithrynluin

> Legolas- Prince of Mirkwood



So? That is just a title. It means nothing. It would be like saying that the Finwëans were great because they were royalty.



> walked the Paths of the Dead



Which were no challenge for an immortal.



> a member of the Fellowship of the Ring



Not chosen for any particular 'greatness', just as a representative of the Elves. Also:



> _Unfinished Tales; The Istari_
> Legolas probably achieved least of the Nine Walkers.





> went up against unbeatable odds



I don't see how Legolas himself was ever up against unbeatable odds. The survival of Middle-Earth depended on the destruction of the Ring.

My choices are the following:

1. Celebrimbor: Created the Rings of Power. He is greater than Feanor in my eyes. He made great artifacts like Fëanor did, but in contrast with him did not commit atrocities of any kind. Allied with the Dwarves of Moria. A genius.

2. Círdan: At the bidding of Ossë gave up his great desire to go to Aman and be reunited with his kin. Saw further and deeper than any Elf in Middle Earth. Taught the craft of ship-building to many, which proved crucial in many instances (Eärendil!). Stood aside from any feuds, and was always ready to lend a helping hand to those who needed it. A very wise and reliable Elf.

3. Elrond: One of the most prominent movers of good after the demise of Melkor. Fostered the line of Kings (which would otherwise have failed) only to be bereaved of his own daughter in the end. Extremely wise and learned.

4. Finrod: Sacrificed his life for Beren, whose Quest for the Silmaril would not have succeeded otherwise. Befriended the race of Men and brought them away from Morgoth's evil whisperings. Built many wonderful things in Middle Earth. Noble and wise.

5. Galadriel: Great wisdom. Saw no hope in fighting Morgoth and she departed east with Celeborn. Perceived that there was still evil in Middle Earth and felt it her duty to stay until it was vanquished. Sauron feared her. Extraordinary power of insight into the minds of others. One of the chief powers of Good in the 2nd and 3rd Ages. Called the first White Council. Provided help for the succour of the Fellowship (the Phial, the Mirror).

6. Lúthien: Quest for the Silmaril. Defeated Sauron and lulled Morgoth himself to sleep. Forsook her own race to be with Beren in afterlife - goes to prove the power of love.


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## Khôr’nagan

All good people/reasons. Although, about the unbeatable odds, I mean the Battle at the Morannon, where they were certain to fail utterly (should the Ring-Bearer not save them by destroying the Ring). For me, protecting the One Ring is a very, very High act, and of great importance.


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## Flammifer

Yes I agree that perhaps Legolas did some good things, but I believe that several Elves were greater than him....

I put *Glorfindel first:* I thought that his sacrifice to save the company escaping Gondolin was so touching and also *very very important*, as without this Earendil would have died and there would have been no Numenorean Kings and no Elrond or anything, not to mention the Ban wouldn't have been lifted. This foresight was also evident when he predicted the fall of the Witch-King. He also was one of the very few who could ride openly against the Nazgul.

*Celebrimbor:* I believe that he would have been just as skilled as Feanor had he had the benefit of the help of Aulë and Morgoth, two of the greatest Valar. Of course, he made the Three Rings, but he wasn't as mean as Feanor. Also he managed to befriend the Dwarves, a nice move for someone living in a land right next to them, as he could trade for lotsa _mithril_ and nice stuff.

*Luthien:* All her singing and stuff was pretty good, I mean she managed to shut Morgoth up AND that damn, morbid whinger Mandos. I thought it was pretty cool how she could grow her hair as long as she wanted, like straight away.

*Galadriel:* Lots of foresight and cool stuff, like the Ring and the Mirror and the Phial. Pretty nice too, I mean, she humoured Gimli, but let's face it, not even the Dwarf women are mildly good-looking......

Oh yeah! You forgot Ingwe. I know he didn't do much, but I figure getting to serve the most powerful being on Arda is pretty good.......he's gotta have some cool stuff going for him!


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## Confusticated

> * by Flammifer*
> I thought that his sacrifice to save the company escaping Gondolin was so touching and also very very important, as without this Earendil would have died and there would have been no Numenorean Kings and no Elrond or anything, not to mention the Ban wouldn't have been lifted. This foresight was also evident when he predicted the fall of the Witch-King.






> *HoME XII, Late Writings, Glorfindel ll*
> More important: Glorfindel had sacrificed his life in defending the fugitives from the wreck of Gondolin against a demon out of Thangorodrim, and so enabling Tuor and Idril daughter of Turgon and their child Earendil to escape, and seek refuge at the Mouths of Sirion. Though he cannot have known the importance of this (and would have defended them even had they been fugitives pf any rank), this deed was of vital importance to the designs of the Valar.


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## Ithrynluin

> _Originally posted by Flammifer _
> *Celebrimbor: I believe that he would have been just as skilled as Feanor had he had the benefit of the help of Aulë and Morgoth, two of the greatest Valar.
> *



Excellent point! Fëanor was given great knowledge by Aulë, Melkor and let's not forget Mahtan, father of Nerdanel also:



> _The Silmarillion: Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor_
> While still in his early youth he wedded Nerdanel, the daughter of a great smith named Mahtan, among those of the Noldor most dear to Aulë; and of Mahtan he learned much of the making of things in metal and in stone.





> Bitterly did Mahtan rue the day when he taught to the husband of Nerdanel all the lore of metalwork that he had learned of Aulë.



We cannot be sure whether Celebrimbor also received the teachings of Aulë, since we don't know if he was born in Valinor or later in Beleriand. But I suspect he was born in Beleriand, since there is no mention of ANY of the grandsons of Fëanor on their journey to Middle Earth. It is said of him:



> _The Silmarillion: Of Beren and Luthien_
> 'Let it be so!' said Celegorm, and there was a light of menace in his eyes; but Curufin smiled. Ten they took horse and rode away like fire, to find if they might their kindred in the east. But none would go with them, not even those that were of their own people; for all perceived that the curse lay heavily upon the brothers, and that evil followed them. [color=sky blue]In that time Celebrimbor the son of Curufin repudiated the deeds of his father[/color], and remained in Nargothrond; yet Huan followed still the horse of Celegorm his master.



Having that in mind, I think Celebrimbor was a better Elf, if slightly less skilled than Fëanor.


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## Kelonus

I choose Legolas.

Reason Why- Well it was already said by a member who I agree with.


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## Celebthôl

Círdan ~ As he was the oldest Elve in ME, he had been there the longest and survived, that has to equate to something good. He offered help when it was needed, i.e. giving aid, making ships etc and housing Gil-Galad the High-king, and he was able to reliquish his ring to Gandalf.

Gil-Galad ~ As he was able to wrestle down a Maia, he was able to reliquish his ring and he led a formidable and successful attack on Mordor.

Glorfindel ~ As he killed a Balrog, he stayed to the last to defend Gondolin. He confronted the Nazgul, and was reborn....

Fingolfin ~ He confronted Morgoth in single combat, and if Morgoth hadnt lucked out he would have won. He led and set up the Exiled Noldorian Realms and survived the Helecaraxë. And was an all round great guy 

Lúthien ~ Even stated as the greatest of the Eldar. . . not even bringing in her deeds that were performed for/with Beren. . . 

Turgon ~ Survived the Helecaraxë, set up a hidden kingdom, and came when help was most needed, saved i think Huor and Tuor.

Earendil ~ Took the big risk of going to Valinor with the only Silmaril the free peoples had, to try to get aid. Killed Ancalagon, and gave up being a man in order to be an Elve like his wife. Still sails the sky with the Silmaril on his boat. . .


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## Khôr’nagan

Thank you, Kelonus (assuming you meant me). And also, though Legolas might not have done the greatest of deeds in comparison to the other Elves listed, he was a member of the Fellowship of the Ring, and without him their, the quest may have failed. Thus, though maybe not so great at first, he accomplished much, saved many, and became greater (though not greater than Ecthelion, Glorfindel, etc.). There were many Men in the history of Middle-Earth greater than Beren, but because of his unique situation, he was given a rare opportunity to do great things. After doing so (with a whole lot of luck and help), he became Legendary. Legolas was not the greatest, indeed not at all, but by simple chance (or perhaps fate) he was given the opportunity to do great things, and he did so with bravery, honor, and selflessness. He was, though not the best, a worthy warrior, and he was greater than many. If I am not correct, isn't the only thing special about Earendil that he chance to have a Silmaril with him, which allowed him to pass to Valinor? Indeed, any Elf would have accomplished that feat, should they also have had a Silmaril. I am not saying, however, that Earendil was not great- Indeed, he was- just that there were people greater than him to do such a mission, but since he did it, he became Legendary as well.

Well, that is my statement. Contradict away!

*EDIT:* 

Whoa, creepy. I started the post before dinner, had dinner, and when I came back and finished, I found that a new post was there before mine, so this is to address it.

Yes, very old. So old that he had a beard. And yes, he was very great.

I don't recall Gil-Galad ever wrestling a Maia. Very odd that I don't. What was his/her name? It might help me remember.

Yes, my argument exactly (though mine was more detailed and had a few more facts).

For confronting Morgoth like that, Fingolfin has and will always be my favorite Elf. And yes, he was a very great guy.

Quite.

Good reasoning, and though I agree he was great, one really bad thing was that he was arrogant (or more accurately over-confident) of his strength, and the overall "unknown" location of the city to the outside world, including Morgoth (or so he thought).

Heck yeah. He was great, and it was awsome how he slew Ancalagon. Also, about what I said before; he wasn't the greatest Elf before venturing out, and though many others were more qualified (greater), he went. What I did not say that doing so and going to Valinor, meeting with the Valar, and being among them made him far greater than he was. My point was that if anyone else had gone, it would have been the same (as long as they were as great or greater than Earendil).

Well, that's my commentary.


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## Lord Gil-galad

Gil-galad's first name was Erenion, but he is never called that int eh books.... 

Even though Gil-galad is my favorite elf(He wrestle Sauron for your info, who is a Maia... then again, he lost.. but almost won mind that.. ^_^)

The greatest elf would have to be Feanor, the most Brilliant, the most brave the most powerful, and with a heart of fire. As he died his body blew into ashes, how.. awesome is that...  He is the greatest of the Noldor, though he is the one who wrote the doom of the elves, he was by far the greatest, His Brother, Were both great in their own way, (Finarfin, Brilliance, and Fingolfin, Bravery) But Feanor took both of their bracery and brilliance in one elf... So if he is the greatest elf in the Noldor, Then he has to be the greatest elf over all.. heh....

A little side not on his name: Finwe didn;t like the name Feanor, he called him Curufinwe, I think that means son of Finwer... .... but his mother, I think it was Miriel, named him Feanor, Heart of Fire, because when he was born, the fire in her heart passed to him and she went to Lorien and asked for him to let her rest forever... whee... so theres you cool little backround on his name....

Anyway, I think the four who put Gil-galad as their best elf... heh.....


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## BlackCaptain

What Rumil are we talking about in this survey?

Anyways I chose Earendil for obvious reason's that I can't think of to post right now. I just remember reading his chapter in the Published Silmarillion and thought to myself "What an amazing and heartlifting character."

I also chose Feanor for reasons listed,
Ecthelion for reasons listed
and Thingol because he was the founder and King of the greatest evlen kingdom (IMO) in all of Middle Earth, which says alot.


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## Éomond

For me, it would probably be:
Gil-Galad - Was great enough (I guess) to get one of the three rings. He had such a bitter-sweet ending, helping defeat Sauron in actual battle with him musta took alot of bravery, skill, strength, and stuff.

I would probably picked Feanor or Finwe, but I haven't read enough about them.


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## Ithrynluin

> _Originally posted by BlackCaptain _
> *What Rumil are we talking about in this survey? *





> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *Rúmil - loremaster of Tirion, invented the Elvish letters
> *





> _Originally posted by Lord Gil-galad _
> *The greatest elf would have to be Feanor, the most Brilliant, the most brave the most powerful, and with a heart of fire. As he died his body blew into ashes, how.. awesome is that...
> *



Brilliant only in the sense of being crafty and skilled with tongues. The most brave would be Fingolfin, Finrod, Fingon...



> As he died his body blew into ashes, how.. awesome is that...



Yes, I'm so very impressed. How is that a factor of greatness?

He also stole the Telerin boats by force, and murdered many of the people of Alqualondë. How awsome is THAT?


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## Inderjit S

> Gil-galad's first name was Erenion, but he is never called that int eh books


 *posted by Lord Gil-Galad* 

That because _Ereinion_ is only used in the _Shibboleth of Feanor_ circa.1968 and therfore the use of 'Erenion' was only a editorial amendment by C.T in the _Quenta Silmarillion_ and _Of The Rings of Power_. 



> Finwe didn;t like the name Feanor, he called him Curufinwe


 *posted by Lord Gil-Galad* 

Where is it ever stated that Finwe didn't like the name Feanor (Feanaro, the Quenya form. Finwe wouldn't have known the Sindarin form, which spelt correctly would be 
_Faenor_ the use 'Feanor' was a scribal confusion). _Laws and Customs of the Eldar_ (HoME 10) and the _Shibboleth of Feanor_ (HoME 12) state that all Elves had 'mother-names' and 'father-names'. Feanaro was his mother-name and his father name was MinyaFinwe (First Finwe) and was latter changed to Kurufinwe because of his talents. It means 'crafty' Finwe, not 'son of Finwe' that would be Finwion which is given in 'Laws and Customs of the Eldar' (HoME 10)



> Heart of Fire,


 *posted by Lord Gil-Galad* 

It means 'spirit of fire' not 'heart of fire'. 



> passed to him and she went to Lorien and asked for him to let her rest forever


 *posted by Lord Gil-Galad* 

I don't know which version your working with here. I assume it is the one in the _Shibboeth of Feanor_ about how she endured her pain until he was fully grown and then laid down and died, which contradicts the one given in the _Published Silmairllion_ that Feanor had never seen his mother, and she died soon after his birth. In the latter version, she never asks Feanor's permission to rest. 



> Fëanor was given great knowledge by Aulë, Melkor


 *posted by ithrynluin*

Feanor was never given any knowledge by Melkor. 




> Having that in mind, I think Celebrimbor was a better Elf, if slightly less skilled than Fëanor.


 *posted by ithrynluin*

Celebrimbor was noted as being a Elf of 'wholly different temper' from Curufin and therefore Feanor.



> All good people/reasons. Although, about the unbeatable odds, I mean the Battle at the Morannon, where they were certain to fail utterly (should the Ring-Bearer not save them by destroying the Ring



By that logic, Gimli is the greatest Dwarf, Pippin greatest Hobbit, Aragorn, Eomer, Imrahil, etc greatest men....you get the point. The situation was 'hopeless' anyway, this was their main form of hope to survive.



> Yes, I'm so very impressed. How is that a factor of greatness


 *posted by ithrynluin*

I think he may be referring to the potency of his spirit, and the statement that there was never a Elf like him.

*my list* 

*Feanor* It was because of his deeds that all the things described in the Silmarillion, for good or bad, took place. He set forward the history of Arda, if he wasn't born Arda wouldn't be the same. Also one of the three 'greatest' Elves as said by Tolkien.

*Finwe* Pretty darn cute..I mean a *great* hot elf. *Begins to hum 'Finwe was a hottie, with his grey-blue eyes*  

*Fingoflin* Challenged Morogth and gave him a great fight and a great Elf anyway.

*Finrod Felagund* Not the best looking (hehe, Nom  ) and said to have poor body odour *but* still a noble, great Elf who was instrumental in the tale of Beren and Luthien and in mine and Nom's pervy convos. (Whoops!)

*Maedhros* Held Himring against Morgoth tell the Nirnaeth and in the Bragollach he was so scary that the Ork's were too scared (and short, unless on stilts of course) to look him in the face. Also performed deeds of great valour and liked to start the morning with a bowl of Rice Krispies, or so we're told. Woodja woodja woo.

*Beleg* Great Elf, lover of Tur..friend of Turin sorry, and selfless and a great hunter. Had a niche for making lasagne supposedly.

*Celebrimbor* Created the Rings of power, showered three times a day. 

*Galadriel* Married Celeborn, you have to indeed be a great Elf to marry that bore. a great Elf anyway, and one of the three greatest according to Tolkien. 

*Fingon* A brave, selfless Elf.

*Gil-galad* The Elven king. Challenged Sauron and allows for many posts by me on who his father is. 

*Mablung* Does there have to be a reason? My hands are tired.


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## Ithrynluin

> _Originally posted by Inderjit S _
> *Feanor was never given any knowledge by Melkor. *





> _The Silmarillion: Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor_But fair-seeming were all the words and deeds of Melkor in that time, and both the Valar and the Eldar had profit from his aid and counsel



Not knowledge necessarily ('For Fëanor was driven by the fire of his own heart only, working ever swiftly and alone'). But Fëanor was 'enhanced' by Melkor, whether for better or for worse.



> Celebrimbor was noted as being a Elf of 'wholly different temper' from Curufin and therefore Feanor.



Exactly. And that is the reason why I said he was a greater Elf/person than Fëanor.


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## Lord Gil-galad

> _Originally posted by BlackCaptain _
> *What Rumil are we talking about in this survey?
> 
> *



for later reference, I'm pretty sure we're talking about the Rumil in Valinor who created the elvish writing he is mentioned quite a bit in "Morgoths Ring", one of Christopher Tolkiens editings...


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## Maedhros

> Glorfindel ~ As he killed a Balrog, he stayed to the last to defend Gondolin. He confronted the Nazgul, and was reborn....


Stayed to the last to defend Gondolin. That is not true.


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## Khôr’nagan

He was of those who were last to leave. But even so, he fought to his _own_ end for the _people_ of Gondolin, too. That's good enough for _"he stayed to the last to defend Gondolin"_ to apply, as far as I'm concerned. And besides, it's not like Glorfindel doesn't deserve it... he _more_ than deserves it.


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## Maedhros

> He was of those who were last to leave. But even so, he fought to his own end for the people of Gondolin, too. That's good enough for "he stayed to the last to defend Gondolin" to apply, as far as I'm concerned. And besides, it's not like Glorfindel doesn't deserve it... he more than deserves it.


There are of course the facts and opinions. What may be good enough for you is not accurate enough for me. If people are going to post opinions, they might as well say that they are.


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## Beleg

> Wisdom



Probably Finarfin or Ingwe. 



> prowess in battle



Feanor.



> a semblance of wit



Thingol. 




> generosity, humility, valour, nobility, creativity, self sacrifice...



Valour=Fingolfin
Creativity=Feanor
Self-sacrifice=Beleg. 
Nobility=Finrod
Generosity=Galadriel  



> These are all admirable traits, but which of the Elves possessed most of these virtues, and used them for the best possible purpose?



It's a Tie between Finrod and Feanor. 
Won't vote now.


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## Khôr’nagan

> *prowess in battle- Feanor*


I disagree. Beleg, Ecthelion, Fingolfin, and Glorfindel were all better (in my opinion... Especially Fingolfin) Sure, Feanor was good. He just wasn't the best. He had little to no training or experience in fighting at all. Though if he had, he may have been a lot better. He did do well against Gothmog, but Fingolfin did just as good against _*Morgoth*_, so here there can be little debate.


> *a semblance of wit- Thingol*


Thingol? Really? I don't know... I _guess_ he could qualify, but I don't think him the best there (or anywhere). Cirdan, Elrond, Galadriel, and Glorfindel were all wiser in my opinion. Thingol... I just don't think he would qualify as the wisest.


> *Valour=Fingolfin*


I definitely agree.


> *Creativity=Feanor*


Yes.


> *Self-sacrifice=Beleg. *


I disagree here. IMO, Ecthelion, because he went up against Gothmog while badly wounded in order to try and save Tuor's life, or Finrod Felagund, because he broke his chains and wrestled a werewolf to both their deaths in order to save Beren's life in the dungeons of Minas Tirith (the first one).


> *Nobility=Finrod*


I'd say Finarfin or Fingolfin as well as Finrod... I'm just not sure which one is most noble.


> *Generosity=Galadriel*


Yeah, I see where you're going with that, and I agree.


> *These are all admirable traits, but which of the Elves possessed most of these virtues, and used them for the best possible purpose?- It's a Tie between Finrod and Feanor.*


I very much disagree. Feanor spilled Elvish blood in the Blessed Realm, the first elf to do so. He was most suredly not the best one there, not at all. As for Finrod, he was very great, indeed yes. The things that he did were very great, and all were very just. I'd agree with Finrod, and Glorfindel close behind.


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## Confusticated

I'd give self-sacrifice to Finrod.
Yeah Ecthelion got up wounded, but that is what people do in battle.

Fingon and Beleg both went from safety, alone into great danger in order to save someone they love. Finrod went into the same thing because of an oath he had made, but he must have known that something great was at work for he believed that a union of man and elf would only happen for a very high reason, and if Beren seceeded there would be such a union. He died without anger or despair, though he had plenty of time to experience those things. He went with unfaltering courage into what he knew would be his death. He is the greatest in my eyes because of his wisdom and kind heart, his love of men and every other action of his that we know about are without fault. He sang men into becoming wise. They thought he was a Vala when they saw/heard him. He knew he would die and that his Kingdom would fall, and probably that all the Noldor would fall, but he never lost hope. We have him to thank for the existance of the Edain, and the elf-man unions. Things not only vital to the First Age defeat of Morgoth but the saviour of Men. I voted for him along with two other elves. Luthien and Finwe.


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## Ithrynluin

I wonder what makes Finwë so great? For one, I don't think he treated his children equally. His decision of not coming back from Mandos for Miriel's sake is quite noble, though I wouldn't name him among the greatest.

Khôr'nagan, I agree with you on Feanor not being the greatest warrior. Though I do think that Finrod is the most noble.


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## Khôr’nagan

Truthfully, I had forgotten about Finrod at the time I said Ecthelion. Had I remembered, I'd have said both Ecthelion and Finrod, like I said more than one for the other attributes. I'll go change that after this post 

Anyway, the reason why I'd say both Ecthelion and Finrod and not just Finrod is because Finrod was, ultimately, _forced_ to help Beren. Yes, he may have wanted to, but it didn't sound like it in the Silmarilion.


> *But Felagund heard this tale in wonder and disquiet; and he knew that the oath he had sworn was come upon him for his death, as long before he had foretold to Galadriel. He spoke to Beren in heaviness of heart. 'It is plain that Thingol desires your death; but it seems that this doom goes beyond his purpose, and that the Oath of Feanor is again at work. For the Silmarils are cursed with an oath of hatred, and he that even names them in desire moves a great power from slumber; and the sons of Feanor would lay all Elf-kingdoms in ruin rather than suffer any other than themselves to win or possess a Silmaril, for the Oath drives them. And now Celegorm and Curufin are dwelling in my halls; and though I, Finarfin's son, am King, they have won a strong power in the realm, and lead many of their own people. They have shown friendship to me in every need, but I fear that they will show neither love nor mercy to you, if your quest be told. Yet my own oath holds; and thus we are all ensnared.'*


Well, I don't know quite what his mood was, but I just don't think he was very happy about it. He was very grave, though I know it was a grave subject. Anyway, I do agree that his self-sacrifice was great, and shall now put it with Ecthelion.


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## Confusticated

Well I doubt Finrod wanted to die, I'll give you that. But what if a warrior, lay wounded when he was physically able to get up and fight, what if he just sit there and watch his people be defeated? Ecthelion was caught in a desperate situation. I do not think Finrod was forced any more than Ecthelion, both were obligated to do something, but Finrod went from safety, with courage and hope into what he knew would be his death.

ithrynluin, I voted for Finwe... well to be honest I voted on a bit of a whim. We learn a lot more about him than we do a lot of the other people on the list, and what I do know of Finwe I think he is great. He had to be great anyhow, look at his sons. I think a lot of others would have done what Finwe did if in his position regarding Miriel, but Finwe is the one who did do it. Plus he was King of Noldor! 

I voted for Luthien purely because of her power, she was untouchable. However, I think most any elf would have attempted to do what she did if in her situation. I could say negative things about her deed too... with all of her greatness she didn't even use it until it was for her own benefit, to be with the man that she loved and to help him survive his quest. It was great thing that she did but I think her natural power is the reason she was able to do it, to put Morgoth to sleep. But Luthien is the one who defeated Morgoth when no one else could.

I'm also not too thrilled that the greatest most powerful elf lady just happened to be the most beautiful of all the Children of Iluvatar that ever was or ever would be. Why not have Aredhel or Galadriel whoop some butt in Nirnaeth for crying out loud! Galadriel stayed in Doriath why? because she loved Celeborn? Aredhel who was the coolest of the elf ladies... hunting with her cousins and all that, and not married, and what does she do? Ends up ensared by Eol and then needs her son to initiate the escape. Aredhel wussed out. She should have been fighting with her cousins, not kept as a good little wife.


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## Ithrynluin

Well, Tolkien's world was somewhat conservative in this respect. Women never went to battles, save for a handful of exceptions. They were pretty much always kept in the background.

Galadriel is known to have fought in the Kinslaying, but we are not told if she participated in any other battles of the First Age. Probably not since she did not see any hope in fighting Morgoth in the first place, and thought it prudent to move eastwards and establish a foothold there. I think it's a pity that Elven women never went into any battles, it might have been an interesting element. 

Yes, Luthien could probably put her powers to good use in some of the battles, and Galadriel and Aredhel were both very brave and physically strong too. But then again, Melian was in the form of an elven woman too, and perhaps her powers would come in handy in some battles too.


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## Confusticated

Did I ever say Luthien should have went to battle?


> But then again, Melian was in the form of an elven woman too, and perhaps her powers would come in handy in some battles too.


She could have probably been useful in battle but I think she was more useful protecting a realm.


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## Maerbenn

*Wisdom*

From HoMe IV: _The Shaping of Middle-earth_; Part 3 ‘The Quenta’; Section 2; Note 8:


> whom his own folk in their tongue later changed call Finn [Finwë] > wisest of all the children of the world


From HoMe V: _The Lost Road and Other Writings_; Part 2 ‘Valinor and Middle-earth before _The Lord of the Rings_’; Section VI ‘Quenta Silmarillion’; Chapter 3 (a) ‘Of the Coming of the Elves’; Paragraph 26:


> Their lord was Finwë, wisest of all the children of the world.


From HoMe X: _Morgoth’s Ring_; Part 3 ‘The Later _Quenta Silmarillion_’; Section I ‘The First Phase’; ‘Chapter 3 ‘Of the Coming of the Elves’; Paragraph 26:


> Their lord was Finwë, wisest of all the children of the world.


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## Link

Best Elves: (in order)

3. Glorfindel: A noble elf of Gondolin, who willingly gave his life for the survival of others. Fought a Balrog in the High Pass of the Encircling Mountains, and smote it down while giving his own life on the process. This act was most crucial in the designs of the Valar, and secured the escape of the Exiles of Gondolin. (Reffering to Tolkien's "canon") He was then re-embodied in Aman, and journeyed back to Middle-Earth to take part in the affairs of Sauron. He drove the Witch-King from Angmar, and in the Third Age secured Frodo's escape from the Nazgul.


2. Fingolfin: The most valiant elf that ever lived, cheifly for his duel against Morgoth Bauglir. This was the bravest act in the annals of Arda.


1. Earendil: Was the son of Tuor of the House of Hador, and Idril of the House of Fingolfin, the most noble houses of Elves and Men. He had the beauty and wisdom of the Eldar, and the strength and hardihood of the Edain. He was tutored by Cirdan the Shipwright, and became the greatest mariner of Arda. Wedded Elwing, daughter of Dior, son of Beren and Luthien. Looked for passage into the West to plead with the Valar to help the Eldar and Edain against Morgoth. Did so un vain until his wife bore him her Silmaril. He led the final attack of the Eagles against the Dragon-Host in the War of Wrath. Earendil then slew greatest of the Dragons, Ancalagon the Black, who then fell dead from the sky, destroying the Thangorodrim, and ending the realm of Morgoth. He had two sons, Elros and Elrond, who together had the most noble blood of any beings in Arda. Earendil became a full Elf after his wife, and now sails the heavens, keeping watch over Melkor, and is known as the Morning and Evening Star.


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## Ithrynluin

> _Originally posted by Link _
> *Earendil then slew greatest of the Dragons, Ancalagon the Black, who then fell dead from the sky, destroying the Thangorodrim, and ending the realm of Morgoth.*



You make it sound as if Eärendil single-handedly brought about the ending of Morgoth's reign. He slew Ancalagon, which was a great deed of course, but Ancalagon with his fall only ruined the mountains of Thangorodrim. Morgoth's armies were pretty much wiped out by then as it is - releasing the flight of dragons was his last resort I think. 

Maerbenn, it is interesting that Finwë is the wisest of *all* the Children of Ilúvatar. Who'd have thought - I certainly wouldn't say so, at least not based from the books - IMO there aren't any hints that would point that way, neither in the texts, nor in his actions. Yes, I think he must have been wise, though I wonder why the wisest of all?


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## Khôr’nagan

Indeed... That makes little sense to me as well. Finwe was before the Elves blessed by the Valar- Oh, wait a minute... That's right, he was the High King and stuff. Now I remember. He led the Elves to Aman, and then took up rule. So I guess he would possess the blessedness of those who dwelt in Valinor. Plus, he must have been many thousands of years old when Morgoth killed him. Interesting. I guess he may have been the wisest, (though it wasn't very wise to stick around when Morgoth was coming...) Well anyways, that's about it.... I guess Finwe could have been the Wisest, though he did not accomplish nearly as much as others with less wisdom have. Of course, he really didn't have as much of an opportunity to do so. I wonder how he did against Morgoth? Was he instantly smitten down, or did he last even a few seconds? A few minutes? I wonder....


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## Kahmûl

I voted for Finarfin as the greatest elf and I know that he hasn't done a lot but he's just my favourite elf.


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## Khôr’nagan

Each is to his/her own. Finarfin is pretty darn cool, but Fingolfin is, in my opinion, a whole lot better.


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## Inderjit S

> Oh, wait a minute... That's right, he was the High King and stuff. Now I remember



Finwe was never High-King. The Noldor weren't divided when he was King. 

Ithrynluin, I don't see how like a son better then another can be seen as bad. Favourtism existed with most parents and kin.


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## Ithrynluin

> _Originally posted by Inderjit S _
> *Ithrynluin, I don't see how like a son better then another can be seen as bad. Favourtism existed with most parents and kin. *



I certainly think that favouritism exists with most, if not all parents. But it all depends on the reasons behind this favouritism. If they're just, then I guess that's fair, or at least understandable. But if they're not, that's pretty unfair to the other children, especially if this 'favour one child above the others' behaviour is not kept private by the parent, but 'shines through' and is openly voiced by him/her.

Though of course, we cannot always go looking for a reasonable explanation in places where emotion overrules reason.


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## Khôr’nagan

Indeed not. Not easily, anyway...

Well, if not 'High King,' Finwe was still King of Tirion. What's more, his sons are legendary, as is his sacrifice for his wife Miriel. But all the things that his sons accomplished... It's unimaginable. Feanor, Fingolfin, and Finarfin are all major figures, (and all favorites of mine), and not only that, but the Sons of Feanor brought about many great (and terrible) things that helped to shape Arda and the course of time itself. It is because of them that things happened as they did, and without them the world might not have been as well-off. Finally, (almost) no child is ever greater than what that child's parents gave with it into being. Such as, you would never have two Elves have a child that is as powerful as a Maia. It just doesn't happen. So Finwe must thus, at least, be great enough that his Sons would be as great as they were.


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## Ithrynluin

> Finally, (almost) no child is ever greater than what that child's parents gave with it into being. Such as, you would never have two Elves have a child that is as powerful as a Maia. It just doesn't happen. So Finwe must thus, at least, be great enough that his Sons would be as great as they were.



I disagree with this. I think his first two sons at least were greater than him, Finarfin too probably. And there are many cases where a son surpasses his father by far. The fact that a son/daughter is very great does not mean that the father & mother must have been equally so. We should also take heed of the fact that someone may be very great, but they simply don't use those powers/talents, or they never get the chance to (like Finwe?).



> the Sons of Feanor brought about many great (and terrible) things that helped to shape Arda and the course of time itself



Are you talking about the Sons of Finwë? If not, then I have to take issue with what you said. What did the sons of Fëanor do that 'helped shape Arda'?


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## Inderjit S

> Are you talking about the Sons of Finwë? If not, then I have to take issue with what you said. What did the sons of Fëanor do that 'helped shape Arda'



Curufin and Celegorm capturing Luthien=Events that transpired, that culminated in the capture of the Silmaril.
Maedhros=Oraganised the Nirnaeth Arnoediad.
Second and Third Kinslaying=Earendil getting the Silmaril=Valar taking down Morgoth=Big change.

Finwe was as great as his sons, IMO. We never get to hear about his valorous deeds because he never went to M-E. What things of valour or nobility could you do in Aman? Stand up the Morgoth when he comes to sack you house and stay in Mandos forever because of your love for another person maybe. What exactly did say Ingwe or Olwe do to match this? Or Finarfin? Finwe as one of the Elves chosen by Orome must have been a Elf of great wisdom, though he had a impetous nature, of course.


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## Ithrynluin

I was taking the 'shaping the fate of Arda' in a more positive sense.



> Curufin and Celegorm capturing Luthien=Events that transpired, that culminated in the capture of the Silmaril.



What did they do that shaped the fate of Arda? Beren and Huan shaped the fate of Arda in the above example, by preventing the sons of Fëanor to fulfill their evil plans.



> Finwe was as great as his sons, IMO. We never get to hear about his valorous deeds because he never went to M-E. What things of valour or nobility could you do in Aman?



Going by that logic makes all the Elves that 'never went to M-E' unsung heroes and generally people with unfulfilled potential.

And Olwe's and Ingwe's wives did not give up living, nor were they closely involved with Morgoth, so we cannot really say how they would have fared in those instances.


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## Khôr’nagan

I meant the sons of Feanor, though I forgot to add _"and the Descendents of Finwe,"_ apparently. Feanor cause the Elves to go to Middle-Earth, and thus set a chain reaction which may well have saved Men from Morgoth. For the Elves going back to Middle-Earth caused a vast increase in the numbers of Elves that dwealt there, and expanded the territory controlled by Elves. If Finrod had not made first contact with Beor, what would have happened? The Men could have come across less friendly Elves and denied permission to settle. Or worse, they could have come across Orcs, Balrogs, Sauron, or even Morgoth. If Finrod had not helped Beren, Beren would never have managed to get the Silmarils, not even got past Minas Tirith. Thus, the Valar would have never intervened and Morgoth would have been victorious. If Maedhros and Maglor hadn't raided the Havens of Sirion, Earendil would not have recieved the Silmaril, would not have sailed to Valinor, would not have won the assistance of the Valar against Morgoth, would not have slewn Ancalagon, would not have led the Edain to Numenor, would not have been the Greatest star in the sky, and since the Phial of Galadriel was derived from that light, Frodo would not have had it and would not have survived Shelob's lair. Now, Maedhros and Maglor causing Earendil to do all that is enough on its own to make up for everything they had ever done to harm their kin. Let alone the fact that the Sons of Feanor with Fingolfin and Finrod were all responsible for the Elves in Middle-Earth holding out as long as they did. Without the leadership of all those people, nothing of the future events would have ever taken place, and the Dominion of Morgoth in Middle-Earth would have been complete.



> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *Going by that logic makes all the Elves that 'never went to M-E' unsung heroes and generally people with unfulfilled potential.*


 Well, actually, there are countless Elves that never get the opportunity to prove themselves great, and many would probably succeed. All Elves have, in a sense, limitless potential. If able to get advanced battle training, advanced teaching of academics and strategems, and are given enough time, any Elf would become a great Elf Lord. Long and hard training can accomplish anything with Elves, because with Elves, there were no mentally disabled Elves, no physicaly disabled Elves... pretty much, all Elves were perfect. Some were especially talented in certain skills, unordinarilly intelligent, unusually strong, and things like that, but no Elf was especially weak or stupid. Since Elves all live forever, they can spend as much time as necessary to improve on their weaknesses. But Elves in Aman didn't need to, because there was peace and bliss everywhere, and they were happy the way they were. But in Middle-Earth, if someone doesn't improve on their skills they're likely to get killed. So, all of the Heroes and Leaders and Warriors that you here of are the ones that accomplished this, and the rest just didn't. It was not necessarily their fault, as even the greatest of Elves can be killed, and there was no safe place in war.


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## Lúthien Séregon

My votes went to:

*Lúthien* - part Maiar, overcame the power of Morgoth to obtain a Silmaril with Beren, sacrificed everything for love, yet came back to ME to live a second life as a mortal.

*Galadriel* - by far the greatest wisdom of the Elves.

*Feanor* - Greatest creative power, and the most fiery spirit. If it were not for the kinslaying and the oath that he swore, I would have probably listed him above all over Elves, not just third.

*Fingolfin* - fought with Melkor, and managed to injure him 7 times before being slain.


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## Gil-Galad

In my thread I stated it several times-*Feanor is the GREATEST elf EVER* !Yes,you can start proving he is not the greatest elf,and how evil he was,but that's my personal opinion.


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## Ithrynluin

GG, are you aware that this is a multiple choice poll?

If you aren't, would you still give your vote *only* to Fëanor?


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## Gil-Galad

Hmm I didn't notice it.I'm sorry for that.
And yes I still would give it to him!
But ok,let's say that after him I think that 

Galadriel is the second greatest elf ever!!!!(Can you believe I'm saying it Ithy?)
Fingolfin then comes
Me,Gil-Galad,
and then Finrod Felagund.


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## Ithrynluin

Well, if you want, I could add your vote for those Elves as well.


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## Roilya

the greatest elf ever is feanor, i mostly like him because of his strong spirit. how he challenged the might of melkor and defied the valar, its awesome. its sad how he died though, i really liked him.


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## Eru

I chose Feanor because he has the coolest name. I mean, sure, he created the Silmarils, but what good did they do anybody? Morgoth lusted after them, steals them, puts them in some crown and gets burned.

And I have always respected craftsmen, and let's face it, Feanor was the best. I have trouble pasting paper on paper (Kindergarten was a cruel time), Feanor probably made some Palantiri during craft time.


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## Gil-Galad

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *Well, if you want, I could add your vote for those Elves as well.  *


No thank you!!!I appreciate your concern,but I would like Feanor to win the poll!!!He is really the greatest elf ever!
Can I vote several times for him?


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## Manwe

I picked Feanor because he created the Silmaril which is a nifty little thing for impressing people at parties


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## meneldor

While the works of Feanor cannot be argued, greatest elf I think not. Leader of the kinstrife? The guy still flying around in his ship with a simaril duct taped to his head, slayer of the stinkiest, nastiest dragon ever, EARENDIL.


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## elf_queen

I would have to say Feanor. He might not be the greatest PERSON, but he is the greatest elf. 

I mean, you don't have to be good to be great. You could argue that Sauron was the greatest Miar of all time because he practically took over the world. Taking over the world isn't a good thing, but it certaintly means that you're very powerful, or great. 

Feanor created the greatest elvish works of all time. Also, he did lead the kinstrife. Now, that wasn't a good thing, but any elf able to lead a rebellion of that size, and persuade so many elves to follow him, would have to be very powerful. So that's why I say that Feanor was the greatest elf of all time.


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## meneldor

Morgoth would have eventually taken over middle-earth if Earendil wouldnt have started up the outboard and putted around till he came to the Valar. It was he who convinced that men and elves needed their help. Feanor was the greatest elvish craftsman of all time....... but that's it. He had a bunch of elves follow him? Many of men with sharp tounge and wit had people follow them to their doom throughout history. Feanor caused nothing but downfall to his family and kin, and a few kingdoms at that. Who would you follow?

Fingolfin would kick Feanors butt anyway!!!!


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## Helcaraxë

Luthien is not more powerful than Fëanor. Remember: Tolkien says the *very fate of Arda* was bound to the Silmarils. Anyone who can create something that can shape the fate of a world has my vote. And Tolkien repeatedly says that he has the mightiest will of the Children of Iluvatar, and has the greatest skill in word and hand. 


Tolkien never writes that Luthien "overcame" Morgoth directly; rather, she beguiled him. Luthien was able to make Morgoth fall into sleep in part because Morgoth let himself be tricked:



> Thus he was beguiled by his own malice...



--The Silmarillion, "Of Beren and Luthien."

Though Luthien was part-Maia, she was still considered an Elf, and thus Tolkien puts Fëanor before her. Khor-nagan, I don't know why you said that Luthien is the "Greatest of all the Children of Iluvatar," as Tolkien says many times that this title belongs to Fëanor in terms of power. And Maia and Elves were not that different in terms of power, when we consider the very powerful Elves. Fingolfin fought with Morgoth (fought, mind you, not deceived like Luthien) with Morgoth, and wounded him seven times. Ecthelion slew Gothmog, a _very_ powerful Maia. So Luthien's Maia blood makes no difference, because she is still a child of Iluvatar, and, according to Tolkien, is thus less in power to Fëanor, and because powerful Elves could be as powerful as powerful Maiar.  

The only reason Finrod was unable to defeat Sauron and Luthien was able to entrance Morgoth was because Finrod engaged in a contest of wills (the songs of power) with Sauron, a very potent Maia. Luthien never strove with Morgoth's will, only tricked him, partially by his own doing, with the great beauty of herself and her song. Morgoth had the strongest will of any being, and Luthien could not have directly contested with it. 

But consider Feanor: he wrought the Silmarils, in which the fate of Arda is bound, he was so influential that he inflamed the Noldor to leave Valinor and challenge the Valar themselves, he defied Morgoth to his face.

But more importantly, his actions were immensely influential. He was essentially the cause of the Noldor's war against Morgoth, and the Oath of Fëanor had massive influence on the Noldor. Not good influence, mind. But if you're asking, "who is the greatest Elf in terms of morality," Fëanor would rank rather low. In that case, I would put Finrod Felagund first. He sacrificed himself to save Beren and to fulfill his oath to Barahir. Most of the Noldor, except for Fëanor and sons, cannot be blamed for the Kinslaying, as they came later and thought the Teleri were attacking Fëanor's host at the bidding of the Valar. He was valiant in battle, a wise king, and very selfless.




Celebthol said:


> Lúthien ~ Even stated as the greatest of the Eldar. . .



Um, where?


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## Tar-Elenion

In The Shibboleth of Feanor, JRRT wrote:
"For Feanor beheld the hair of Galadriel with wonder and delight. He begged three times for a tress, but Galadriel would not give him even one hair. These two kinsfolk, the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor [14], were unfriends for ever."

Appended to this is endnote 14 which states:
"14. Who together with *the greatest of all the Eldar, Luthien Tinuviel*,
daughter of Elu Thingol, are the chief matter of the legends and
histories of the Elves. "
My emphasis.


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## Ithrynluin

Helcaraxë said:


> He was valiant in battle, a wise king, and very selfless.


Valiant in battle - definitely! Wise king and selfless!? Are we talking about the same character, because Fëanor is neither.



> But more importantly, his actions were immensely influential.


The title 'greatest' should be comprised of much more than who is the most influential.



> Fingolfin fought with Morgoth (fought, mind you, not deceived like Luthien)


Are you implying that Luthien's deed was less because it did not involve brute strength?


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## Tar-Elenion

And Fingolfin lost. Luthien did not.


----------



## Helcaraxë

ithrynluin said:


> Valiant in battle - definitely! Wise king and selfless!? Are we talking about the same character, because Fëanor is neither.



I was talking about Finrod Felagund. 



> The title 'greatest' should be comprised of much more than who is the most influential.



Which is why I ranked Finrod highest in terms of self-sacrifice.



> Are you implying that Luthien's deed was less because it did not involve brute strength?



No, but Luthien enchanted Morgoth through guile and her great beauty. Morgoth also let himself be tricked, as I said before:


> Thus he was beguiled by his own malice...



Luthien could not have overcome Morgoth in a direct contest of wills. Besides, Luthien was almost overcome by Sauron, and only survived because of Huan. Sauron would have made Luthien stew if Huan hadn't defeated him.



> In The Shibboleth of Feanor, JRRT wrote:
> "For Feanor beheld the hair of Galadriel with wonder and delight. He begged three times for a tress, but Galadriel would not give him even one hair. These two kinsfolk, the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor [14], were unfriends for ever."



And he is shown to be less powerful because Galadriel refused to give him a hair? 



> Appended to this is endnote 14 which states:
> "14. Who together with the greatest of all the Eldar, Luthien Tinuviel,
> daughter of Elu Thingol, are the chief matter of the legends and
> histories of the Elves. "
> My emphasis.



Still, Tolkien says multiple times that he had the greatest will and skill of all the Eldar. But we cannot always trust the endnotes. Whether Glorifndel was indeed reincarnated is resolved in an endnote (I believe in the Peoples of Middle Earth). But can we take this as "fact"? If Tolkein says several times that Fëanor is the greatest, I'd trust that over an endnote.

Anyway, Fëanor created objects so powerful that the _very fate of Arda_ was bound to them.


> And Fingolfin lost. Luthien did not.



Fingolfin actually engaged him in combat. Fingy also wounded him seven times and nearly cut off his foot. Luthien did not contest directly with Morgoth, but rather lulled him to sleep partially by his own devices.


----------



## Confusticated

Helcaraxë said:


> But can we take this as "fact"? If Tolkein says several times that Fëanor is the greatest, I'd trust that over an endnote.


Did Tolkien write something that contradicts the Shibboleth note which has Luthien as the greatest of the Eldar? If not, then why toss the Luthien note? If so, where? Where is Feanor just the greatest of elves?


> Greatest in strength and deeds of prowess is Tulkas...


Does this make Tulkas the greatest of the Valar?



> Thus ended Beleg Strongbow, truest of friends, greatest in skill of all that harboured in the woods of Beleriand in the Elder Days...


greatest in _skill_... 


And Glorfindel from LotR as Glorfindel of Gondolin is not confined to an endnote. Two essays were written about it.


----------



## Tar-Elenion

Helcaraxë said:


> Tar-Elenion provided: In The Shibboleth of Feanor, JRRT wrote:
> "For Feanor beheld the hair of Galadriel with wonder and delight. He begged three times for a tress, but Galadriel would not give him even one hair. These two kinsfolk, the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor [14], were unfriends for ever."
> 
> 
> 
> And he is shown to be less powerful because Galadriel refused to give him a hair?
Click to expand...

Non-sequitur.

Elsewhere in The Shibboleth, it is suggested that Galadriel might be greater than Feanor and her greater wisdom is an implied factor.





> Still, Tolkien says multiple times that he had the greatest will and skill of all the Eldar. But we cannot always trust the endnotes. Whether Glorifndel was indeed reincarnated is resolved in an endnote (I believe in the Peoples of Middle Earth). But can we take this as "fact"? If Tolkein says several times that Fëanor is the greatest, I'd trust that over an endnote.


(Nom adequately dispenses with the Glorfindel red herring.)

We? That seems rather a rhetorical ad populum. Would it not be more accurate to say _You_ don't want to trust the endnote because it disagrees with your premise? The "fact" is JRRT wrote a direct comparative statement of the including both Luthien and Feanor by name and (and all of the Eldar), in an essay that post-dates any other statements about Feanor that you can come up with (and I could find 'counters' to those statements).



> Anyway, Fëanor created objects so powerful that the _very fate of Arda_ was bound to them.


Did he create the light that was in them?



> Fingolfin actually engaged him [Morgoth] in combat. Fingy also wounded him seven times and nearly cut off his foot. Luthien did not contest directly with Morgoth, but rather lulled him to sleep partially by his own devices.


Luthien won, Fingolfin lost. 
Luthien in fact 'overcame' Mandos.


----------



## Helcaraxë

Nóm said:


> Did Tolkien write something that contradicts the Shibboleth note which has Luthien as the greatest of the Eldar? If not, then why toss the Luthien note? If so, where? Where is Feanor just the greatest of elves?



When he says Luthien was the Greatest he was not referring to power, for the same reason that Tulkas is not the greatest of the Valar, as you said.


> Fëanor was the greatest of the Eldar in arts and lore...



Appendix A.



> Fëanor was the mightiest in skill of word and hand...



Silamrillion, Of Eldamar.

A passage also in "Of Eldamar" suggests also that Fëanor had the strongest will, but it's rather long and I'll type it up later.

Seeing as this says nothing about Luthien's power, consider Fëanor's deeds. He shaped the fate of Arda.



> Does this make Tulkas the greatest of the Valar?



No, which is precisely why this does not mean that Luthien is the most powerful.



> greatest in _skill_...



...In the woods of Beleriand. Fëanor did not live in the woods, nor was he an Elf of Beleriand.



> We? That seems rather a rhetorical ad populum. Would it not be more accurate to say You don't want to trust the endnote because it disagrees with your premise? The "fact" is JRRT wrote a direct comparative statement of the including both Luthien and Feanor by name and (and all of the Eldar), in an essay that post-dates any other statements about Feanor that you can come up with (and I could find 'counters' to those statements).



Utterly preposterous. It is not an ad populum at all, it is merely saying "should we Tolkien readers" trust it. The Histories are so many-layered that contradictions abound. And this does not mean Luthien is the most powerful.



> Non-sequitur.



Exactly. Else why did you give the quote about her hair?



> Elsewhere in The Shibboleth, it is suggested that Galadriel might be greater than Feanor and her greater wisdom is an implied factor.



Wisdom, yes, but greatness has far more factors than mere power.


> Did he create the light that was in them?



Irrelevant. The fate of Arda was bound to the Silmarils far more than the trees.



> Luthien won, Fingolfin lost.
> Luthien in fact 'overcame' Mandos.



A repeat of what you said earlier. Fingy fought with him; Luthien did not. Luthien did not overcome Mandos so much as she convinced him with the beauty of her song.


----------



## Tar-Elenion

Helcaraxë said:


> Utterly preposterous. It is not an ad populum at all, it is merely saying "should we Tolkien readers" trust it. The Histories are so many-layered that contradictions abound. And this does not mean Luthien is the most powerful.


Why should "we Tolkien readers" not trust it? Why bring "we" into something that is *your* premise. As I asked previously, is it not more accurate to say that *you* question its validity because it disagrees with *your* premise?




> Exactly. Else why did you give the quote about her hair?


Red herring. The quote I gave was about Feanor and Galadriel being the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor (your reply was a non-sequitur as it had no relevance to the topic):
"For Feanor beheld the hair of Galadriel with wonder and delight. He begged three times for a tress, but Galadriel would not give him even one hair. *These two kinsfolk, the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor * [14], were unfriends for ever." 
And provided a direct comparative statement that Luthien was greater than either of them. 



> Wisdom, yes, but greatness has far more factors than mere power.


Now you begin to see the point.




> Irrelevant. The fate of Arda was bound to the Silmarils far more than the trees.


No, it is quite relevant. Feanor made the 'containers' to hold the light. But the light was not his 'creation', without that light, they would have been but pretty baubles.




> A repeat of what you said earlier. Fingy fought with him; Luthien did not. Luthien did not overcome Mandos so much as she convinced him with the beauty of her song.


Again, Luthien won. Fingolfin lost. Luthien was not a soldier. Luthien moved Mandos to pity. He who had never felt pity before. There is power in song. You can try to diminish Luthien, but it does not change the fact that JRRT said she was the greatest of all the Eldar, and greater than Feanor.


----------



## Morfea

Erm..i should probably read all what is written..but..hmmm..too much, too much..i'd just like to say, that Feanor could've been the greatest elf if he hadn't fallen for greed nad somehow madness caused by Morgoth..and yes more or less he was born gifted, biut he could've used those gifts in better ways than in the absolute end kinslaying


----------



## Confusticated

Helcaraxë said:


> When he says Luthien was the Greatest he was not referring to power, for the same reason that Tulkas is not the greatest of the Valar, as you said.


He was not refering to her being the greatest in any specific skill or trait, as he was with Tulkas and with Feanor. Luthien is said to simply be the greatest of all the Eldar. 

If you agree it should not be conluded that Tulkas is the greatest of the Valar from the statement that he is greatest in strength and deeds of prowess, then why should it follow Feanor is greatest of the elves because it is stated he was greatest in arts, lore, and skill of word and hand? That's a lot of greatness and it is reasonable to count him the greatest because of that, however it is still an opinion and does not make the statements it is based upon a contradicton with what is said of Luthien. I still see nothing that conflicts with the statement she is greatest of all the Eldar.




> ...In the woods of Beleriand. Fëanor did not live in the woods, nor was he an Elf of Beleriand.



Nor was Luthien an Elda of Aman. Feanor and Galadriel greatest of the Eldar of Aman. 



Helcaraxe said:


> Wisdom, yes, but greatness has far more factors than mere power.


Likwise: Can it not include more than arts, lore and skill of word?




> The fate of Arda was bound to the Silmarils far more than the trees.


Where they not bound to Arda's fate because they had a power for healing which came from the light that was within them, originating (according to 'The Silmarillion') with Yavanna's skill, and in some writing this light comes from Varda who was given it by Iluvatar himself?

But even so, did Luthien not play a vital part in the fate of Arda.... the mother of a line that will never fail, a love story that was at the heart of the defeat of Morgoth and a legacy that lived on through the defeat of Sauron?

Of course we're all free to decide who was greatest in our own opinion, but where exactly is a statement by Tolkien that conflicts with the statement Luthien was greatest of all the Eldar and causes doubt as to whether or not we could hold the statement as fact?


----------



## Gildor

Feanor. His actions set events in motion which would have an impact on Middle Earth and its residents for all time.


----------



## grendel

Fingolfin... he took on Morgoth, one-on-one, mano-a-mano, and had him on the ropes. Who else did that?


----------



## Confusticated

grendel said:


> Fingolfin... he took on Morgoth, one-on-one, mano-a-mano, and had him on the ropes. Who else did that?



His father?


----------



## Ireth Telrúnya

Greatest in what way? In achievements? The elf I like most?
I'm sorry I don't know even half of the elves listed here but right now I would say Elrond is the greatest elf I know about. 
I might think otherwise after reading the Silmarillion..but this is the situation right now.
Galadriel has more power than Elrond, but still I like Elrond more. Just my personal opinion.
And Legolas is the best-looking elf, but he doesn't have the feeling of "grandeur" around him like Elrond has.


----------



## Helcaraxë

Tar-Elenion said:


> Why should "we Tolkien readers" not trust it? Why bring "we" into something that is *your* premise. As I asked previously, is it not more accurate to say that *you* question its validity because it disagrees with *your* premise?



Because the HoME are laden with inconsistencies. Just because Tolkien does not directly contradict this point does not mean that we should automatically accept it as "fact." But you're missing the point. I'm not disputing that Luthien was the greatest in Tolkien's mind. I'm arguing that she was not the most powerful.




> Red herring. The quote I gave was about Feanor and Galadriel being the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor (your reply was a non-sequitur as it had no relevance to the topic):
> "For Feanor beheld the hair of Galadriel with wonder and delight. He begged three times for a tress, but Galadriel would not give him even one hair. *These two kinsfolk, the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor * [14], were unfriends for ever."
> And provided a direct comparative statement that Luthien was greater than either of them.



Ah, I see. I thought you were trying to make a point about her not giving him a lock of her hair. 




> Now you begin to see the point.



I clearly saw the point from the beginning. I only said that he was the most powerful. 



> No, it is quite relevant. Feanor made the 'containers' to hold the light. But the light was not his 'creation', without that light, they would have been but pretty baubles.



Yes, but which had a greater direct influence on the Fate of Arda: the Silmarils or the Trees?




> Again, Luthien won. Fingolfin lost. Luthien was not a soldier. Luthien moved Mandos to pity. He who had never felt pity before. There is power in song. You can try to diminish Luthien, but it does not change the fact that JRRT said she was the greatest of all the Eldar, and greater than Feanor.



Greater, perhaps, but not more powerful. There is power and song, but Tolkien also said that she was aided by her great beauty and loveliness. But she moved Mandos to pity more because of the magnitude of her love for Beren rather than the mere power of her song.



> He was not refering to her being the greatest in any specific skill or trait, as he was with Tulkas and with Feanor. Luthien is said to simply be the greatest of all the Eldar.



And yet "greatest" is not a synonym for "greatest in power." Note that I never said he was the greatest, I said he was the greatest in power.



> If you agree it should not be conluded that Tulkas is the greatest of the Valar from the statement that he is greatest in strength and deeds of prowess, then why should it follow Feanor is greatest of the elves because it is stated he was greatest in arts, lore, and skill of word and hand? That's a lot of greatness and it is reasonable to count him the greatest because of that, however it is still an opinion and does not make the statements it is based upon a contradicton with what is said of Luthien. I still see nothing that conflicts with the statement she is greatest of all the Eldar.



Yet even though he says "greatest" in a general way, he implies certain things about what kind of "greatness" she possesses. She certainly wasn't greatest in battle. She probably was not greatest in valor (remember Fingolfin). She definately was not greatest in physical strength. So why should the things that Luthien is greatest at make her more powerful than Fëanor, and the things he is greatest at? They obviously make her "greater" in Tolkien's mind, but I'm talking about power. Luthien is greater than Fëanor in beauty, and in loveliness of song. But Fëanor was a better orator, he was far, far better in terms of crafstmanship, and he was a far greater influence on Arda, as he wrought things that controlled its fate. So Luthien was greater in some respects, Fëanor in others. Apparently, as I said before, the kinds of greatness that Luthien possesses are "greater" to Tolkien than Fëanor's greatness. But this does not make her more powerful. The influence that Fëanor exerted over the world far exceeded Luthien's. Surely this is some measure of power, as the greater the power, the greater the possible influence.




> Nor was Luthien an Elda of Aman. Feanor and Galadriel greatest of the Eldar of Aman.



I meant "skill" as skill of craftsmanship. Surely you do not argue that Beleg was a greater craftsman than Fëanor?



> Where they not bound to Arda's fate because they had a power for healing which came from the light that was within them, originating (according to 'The Silmarillion') with Yavanna's skill, and in some writing this light comes from Varda who was given it by Iluvatar himself?



I don't recall this ever being written. But it has been a long time since I have read any of HoME, so I may be overlooking something. But the Silmarils had a power for evil just as much as they had a power for healing. I mean, they basically caused the Wars of Beleriand, the destruction of most of the Noldor, et cetera.



> But even so, did Luthien not play a vital part in the fate of Arda.... the mother of a line that will never fail, a love story that was at the heart of the defeat of Morgoth and a legacy that lived on through the defeat of Sauron?



She was important, yes. But how did she play a vital role in the defeat of Morgoth? I don't think he was _that_ upset when he lost a Sil from his crown.  But if she did, than it was through the agency of the Silmaril, which Fëanor made.



> Of course we're all free to decide who was greatest in our own opinion, but where exactly is a statement by Tolkien that conflicts with the statement Luthien was greatest of all the Eldar and causes doubt as to whether or not we could hold the statement as fact?



And I am not arguing (and could not credibly argue) that she was not the greatest in general. But as I said before, she was only greater than Fëanor in some ways. He was greater than her in others. So "greatest" cannot mean merely "most powerful."


----------



## Confusticated

Okay, that makes more sense to me. You accept JRRT thought Luthien was the greatest, and argue only that Feanor was greater than her in power - not in general in JRRT's mind.

It was this:



Helcaraxe said:


> Still, Tolkien says multiple times that he had the greatest will and skill of all the Eldar. But we cannot always trust the endnotes. Whether Glorifndel was indeed reincarnated is resolved in an endnote (I believe in the Peoples of Middle Earth). But can we take this as "fact"? If Tolkein says several times that Fëanor is the greatest, I'd trust that over an endnote.


... especially the part I underlined for emphasis, which I questioned.
Your wording suggests to me that you doubt the Entnote because it seems to conflict with what is said of Feanor's greatest. Yet, you provided nothing that conflicted. 

Perhaps you didn't doubt the endnote for that reason, but again you mention conflictions in your previous post. 


Helcaraxe said:


> They obviously make her "greater" in Tolkien's mind...



If you believe that, why question his statement that she was greatest of all the Eldar?


Regarding the role of the Silmarilli at the end, there were prophesies written. If you want to investigate I'd recommend starting by looking up _Dagor Dagorath_ in HoME 4. But we know the jewels have a power of healing, and according to 'The Silmarillion' it will be known what substance they were made of _in the end_ when Feanor returns and the Sun passes and the Moon falls. The prophecy could give you an idea of their role. I don't think it is outright stated anywhere that the Silmarils were bound to the fate of Arda _because_ they will heal Arda in the End, but I think it a reasonable conclusion to make, and can see no better reason that Mandos would say they are bound to the fate of Arda.


----------



## Tar-Elenion

Helcaraxë said:


> Because the HoME are laden with inconsistencies. Just because Tolkien does not directly contradict this point does not mean that we should automatically accept it as "fact."



Where do the statements that Feanor is 'the greatest' come from? They come from HoME. The essays and narratives in HoME are what CT used to put The Silmarillion together for publishing.




> But you're missing the point. I'm not disputing that Luthien was the greatest in Tolkien's mind. I'm arguing that she was not the most powerful.



No, you are missing the point. The quote I provided merely answered your question:

"Originally Posted by Celebthol
Lúthien ~ Even stated as the greatest of the Eldar. . . " 
To which you responded:
"Um, where?"



> "I clearly saw the point from the beginning. I only said that he was the most powerful."



No, you asked: "Um, where?"



> Yes, but which had a greater direct influence on the Fate of Arda: the Silmarils or the Trees?


Non sequitur.



> Greater, perhaps, but not more powerful. There is power and song, but Tolkien also said that she was aided by her great beauty and loveliness. But she moved Mandos to pity more because of the magnitude of her love for Beren rather than the mere power of her song.


All intrinsic to Luthien. She was half a 'god'.


----------



## Helcaraxë

> ... especially the part I underlined for emphasis, which I questioned.
> Your wording suggests to me that you doubt the Entnote because it seems to conflict with what is said of Feanor's greatest. Yet, you provided nothing that conflicted.
> 
> Perhaps you didn't doubt the endnote for that reason, but again you mention conflictions in your previous post.



My wording was confusing. Do you understand my stance now?



> If you believe that, why question his statement that she was greatest of all the Eldar?



I believed it after you provided the quote. I had, when I questioned the statement, not seen any evidence that Tolkien thought Luthien was the greatest.



> Regarding the role of the Silmarilli at the end, there were prophesies written. If you want to investigate I'd recommend starting by looking up _Dagor Dagorath_ in HoME 4. But we know the jewels have a power of healing, and according to 'The Silmarillion' it will be known what substance they were made of _in the end_ when Feanor returns and the Sun passes and the Moon falls. The prophecy could give you an idea of their role. I don't think it is outright stated anywhere that the Silmarils were bound to the fate of Arda _because_ they will heal Arda in the End, but I think it a reasonable conclusion to make, and can see no better reason that Mandos would say they are bound to the fate of Arda.



Yes, I know the prophecy of Mandos about how the Silmarils will be broken and their light used to rekindle the trees, and the Pelori will be leveled so it shines out all over Arda. But I do not think it is a necessary conclusion that they contain the fate of ARda because of their healing power. All of the events that the Silmarils caused in the FA were due chiefly to their negative influence on the Noldor. This certainly shaped the fate of Arda.



> Where do the statements that Feanor is 'the greatest' come from? They come from HoME. The essays and narratives in HoME are what CT used to put The Silmarillion together for publishing.



Yes, yes I know. But this isn't the point. I am not arguing about greatness, only one element of greatness: power. Notice how in my first post I did not put Fëanor first in greatness, only power.



> No, you are missing the point.



Oh, indeed?  




> The quote I provided merely answered your question:
> 
> "Originally Posted by Celebthol
> Lúthien ~ Even stated as the greatest of the Eldar. . . "
> To which you responded:
> "Um, where?"



And your point is? Before Nom provided that quote, I had seen no evidence that she was the greatest. I still have seen no evidence that she was the most powerful. So no, you haven't answered my question. Which isn't really a question, by the way.


> No, you asked: "Um, where?"



And this is quite flimsy evidence that I did not see the point that there are more aspects to greatness than power. Asking where Tolkien says that Luthien is the greatest does not mean that I think that power is the only element in greatness. I wonder why I put Finrod before Fëanor, if I alledgedly did not understand that power is not the only part of greatness?


> Non sequitur.



And why is that? Don't keep stating "non-sequitor" to things that are quite relevant unless you have an argument as to why they are not relevant.



> All intrinsic to Luthien.



Which proves what? 



> She was half a 'god'.



And her son Dior, the Elven king of Doriath after Thingol's death, was a quarter-god. This does not automatically make him great among Elves.


----------



## Confusticated

Helcaraxë said:


> My wording was confusing. Do you understand my stance now?



No.



Helcaraxe said:


> I believed it after you provided the quote. I had, when I questioned the statement, not seen any evidence that Tolkien thought Luthien was the greatest.





Helcaraxe said:


> And your point is? Before Nom provided that quote, I had seen no evidence that she was the greatest.



Actually I _never_ provided that quote. Tar-Elenion did.

You quoted Tar-Elenion proving that endnote, and follow it up with this:



Helcaraxe said:


> Still, Tolkien says multiple times that he had the greatest will and skill of all the Eldar. But we cannot always trust the endnotes. Whether Glorifndel was indeed reincarnated is resolved in an endnote (I believe in the Peoples of Middle Earth). But can we take this as "fact"? If Tolkein says several times that Fëanor is the greatest, I'd trust that over an endnote.



At which point I entered, looking for statements that conflict with the endnote.

I do not understand why you think this note should not be trusted. When at last you said that Luthien was greatest in Tolkien's mind, I became confused as to how you would accept that but question the note. Now am further confused that you claim not to have seen the evidence when you had quoted it before going on to question it. The questioning that started our exchange here.

"If Tolkein says several times that Fëanor is the greatest, I'd trust that over an endnote."

Are you saying that Tolkien does say several times that Feanor is the greatest and you therefore don't trust the note. Or are you saying that _]if_ he does, you would then trust that over the note?


----------



## Melian_the_Maya

Celebrimbor and Feanor: great craftsmen, one has the merit of the silmarils, the other, of the three rings. Both these achievements are very notable and important. Celebrimbor was more with his feet on the ground than Feanor, but Feanor was in my view a greater elf, not by being the proud and selfish leader he became to his family and followers, but by for instance loving his father as much as he did and afterwards fighting and dying in order to fulfil a (wrong maybe, but truthfully meant) oath.

Luthien: fought alongside Beren and went far into the dominion of Morgoth for him. In my view, the best female elf ever. Also the fairest.

Galadriel: wise and with much experience, which I think was what granted her one of the three rings... She took an active part in the war against Sauron even though she knew the time of the Elves was past and they could have simply walked away, which is quite a difficult thing to do.

Earendil: for his boldness and persistence, by which he achieved more than any other Elf on middle Earth in terms of the war against Morgoth.


----------



## Fechin

Elrond-The best overall in my book

Galadriel-May be the wisest

Legolas-The only elf in the Fellowship has to mean something


----------



## Melian_the_Maya

Fechin said:


> Legolas-The only elf in the Fellowship has to mean something



Yes, it meant that he was at the right place at the right time and that he had been already driven away from his own realm by the threat of Sauron and the Doom of Middle Earth. Gimli and Legolas have no other benefit out of the quest other than dropping the sentiments Elves and Dwarves usually had for each other.


----------



## Fechin

Melian_the_Maya said:


> Yes, it meant that he was at the right place at the right time and that he had been already driven away from his own realm by the threat of Sauron and the Doom of Middle Earth. Gimli and Legolas have no other benefit out of the quest other than dropping the sentiments Elves and Dwarves usually had for each other.



Come on Legolas was not some thug elf on the street I mean he is a Elven Prince of Mirkwood. Man it kind of has to sink to be a Prince because chances are you will never get to be king lol. He was the represention of the elves thoughout most of the book and movies and I think he did a fine job at it. You are right he was in the right place at the right time in a sense but he did represent the Elves of Middle Earth.


----------



## Melian_the_Maya

Fechin said:


> Come on Legolas was not some thug elf on the street I mean he is a Elven Prince of Mirkwood. Man it kind of has to sink to be a Prince because chances are you will never get to be king lol. He was the represention of the elves thoughout most of the book and movies and I think he did a fine job at it. You are right he was in the right place at the right time in a sense but he did represent the Elves of Middle Earth.



I am not trying to diminish his merits, I just think it could have also been anyone else in his stead, Haldir for instance or just some other Elves. As the Firstborn, Elves were generally very noble looking and all, and Legolas was indeed a prince of Elves, but if he could go, either Elladan or Elrohir could go as well... I just think Legolas was chosen exactly because he was less important than the sons of Elrond or the guardians of Lórien. The fellowship was made of people who needed to change and to whom this road together means much more than a travel, but also an opportunity to change in character. Legolas was chosen because he needed to change and "grow up" in a sense. The sons of Elrond instead are chosen by Tolkien to counterbalance Fate in the latter stages of the quest, which has to show that they were if not more noble, at least more important.


----------



## Fechin

Sure there may have been better choices lets just leave it at that.


----------



## Helcaraxë

Nóm said:


> No.



Um....alright then.




> Actually I _never_ provided that quote. Tar-Elenion did.



Is that really a valid point for you to ciritisize me on? 



> At which point I entered, looking for statements that conflict with the endnote.
> 
> I do not understand why you think this note should not be trusted. When at last you said that Luthien was greatest in Tolkien's mind, I became confused as to how you would accept that but question the note. Now am further confused that you claim not to have seen the evidence when you had quoted it before going on to question it. The questioning that started our exchange here.



I don't think the endnote shouldn't be trusted. I think the endnote only can go so far. You said earlier that he refers to Luthien as "generally" the greatest. And I replied that this does not mean Luthien is the greatest in every way, and I listed several ways in which Fëanor is greater. What I was saying is I don't see why the ways in which Luthien is greater, and apparently which made her greater as a whole in Tolkien's mind, means that she is more powerful and stronger in will than Fëanor, which is the point I am arguing. 



> Are you saying that Tolkien does say several times that Feanor is the greatest and you therefore don't trust the note. Or are you saying that _]if_ he does, you would then trust that over the note?



He says he is the greatest at certain things, just as despite the "generalness" of the quote Tolkien is only referring to specific things that Luthien is greater at. I think you misunderstood this quote. I was not arguing that we should dismiss this quote as inaccurate. I was saying we should not trust it to give a decisive answer to the question of who was the most powerful (most powerful is an element of greatness, though it is of course not all of greatness). Remember: in my very first post I put Fëanor second to Fingon, even though he is more powerful.


----------



## Confusticated

You did not originally ask if the note should be trusted to tell us who is the most powerful. You just asked if it should be trusted. I had the impression you thought there were statements about Feanor that directly contradicted it. I am not aware of any about Feanor that do. But I guess we end it here because I am growing more confused all the time.

I saw a point to my correcting you about who provided the statement that Luthien was greatest. It was not done as criticism.

Now as for my personal answer to the question if the note should be trusted? I would say yes. While some elements were always changing... dates for example, and names, I do not think a thing such as JRRTs opinion on who the greatest of the Eldar was would change at that point. So for the purpose of telling us which Elf JRRT held to be the greatest, I think it can be trusted.

On the other hand there is a statement (Not about Feanor!) that has Galadriel as the greatest of female elves. And what's more... this is in LotR's appendix _The Tale of Years_. As far as I am aware this is the best thing to use if you want to argue against Luthien being greatest.


----------



## Tar-Elenion

Nóm said:


> On the other hand there is a statement (Not about Feanor!) that has Galadriel as the greatest of female elves. And what's more... this is in LotR's appendix _The Tale of Years_. As far as I am aware this is the best thing to use if you want to argue against Luthien being greatest.


Luthien was, of course, long dead at this point.


----------



## Helcaraxë

Nóm said:


> You did not originally ask if the note should be trusted to tell us who is the most powerful. You just asked if it should be trusted. I had the impression you thought there were statements about Feanor that directly contradicted it. I am not aware of any about Feanor that do. But I guess we end it here because I am growing more confused all the time.



I meant, implicitly, that it should not be trusted to determine power. If you remember, I did not put Fëanor as the greatest of the Elves, only the most powerful. And there is a good deal of evidence to support this.


----------



## Ithrynluin

It's three years later, so let's have some fresh opinions!


----------



## Chymaera

Here are the rankings:

Fëanor 25
Lúthien 18
Galadriel 16
Fingolfin 13
Eärendil 12
Elrond 10
Gil-galad 10
Glorfindel 9
Finrod 9
Legolas 7
Cirdan 6
Beleg 5
Celebrimbor 5
Finwë 5
Celeborn 4
Echelion 4
Thingol 4
Turgon 4
Arwen 3
Fingon 3
Maedros 3
Finafin 2
Daeron 1
Pengolodh 1
Rúmil 1
plus 3 other votes (to be added after I have read the whole thread and figured out who they were.)

I voted for Finrod because I can 
All have merits and all are great in their own way.
I'll give this some more thought and get back to you.


----------



## Grond

Hmmmm. One I didn't post. 

Bill Clinton once said "it depends on what your definition of "is" is.

Here we have to ask what the definition of "greatest" is. 

I know of only one elf who stormed the very gates of Hell and battled the evil Vala Melkor. Melkor's hammer fell seven times and seven times was Melkor wounded. 

Feanor was an anti-hero and would win any anti-great poll

Luthien died a mortal. I don't count her an elf although she did face Melkor and both she and Beren showed limitless courage.

Galadriel and Celeborn fled before the forces of Mordor in Moria and left Celebrimbor to die. They don't rate up there in my book.

Earendil would be a strong number two on my list except he started out a man and was only granted elfship.  His slaying of Ancalagon is second only to Fingolfin's battling with Melkor in my book.

Ecthelion is also way up there. Any elf who can slay my good buddy Gothmog has got to be a great hero.

I'll write more later.

Cheers,

grond


----------



## Ithrynluin

Chymaera said:


> I voted for Finrod because I can



Perhaps you were not aware that the poll is multiple choice? I editted it to make that more obvious. Good choice, though. 



Grond said:


> Galadriel and Celeborn fled before the forces of Mordor in Moria and left Celebrimbor to die. They don't rate up there in my book.







That is a rather twisted view of what actually happened. You are greatly underestimating Galadriel's foresight and wisdom. I'll let _Unfinished Tales_ speak for itself:



> ...while later in the narrative Galadriel's remaining in Middle-earth after the defeat of Sauron in Eriador is ascribed to her sense that it was her duty not to depart while he was still finally unconquered.





> For love of Celeborn, who would not leave Middle-earth (and probably with some pride of her own, for she had been one of those eager to adventure there), she did not go West at the Downfall of Melkor, but crossed Ered Lindon with Celeborn and came into Eriador. When they entered that region there were many Noldor in their following, together with Grey-elves and Green-elves; and for a while they dwelt in the country about Lake Nenuial (Evendim, north of the Shire). *Celeborn and Galadriel came to be regarded as Lord and Lady of the Eldar in Eriador*, including the wandering companies of Nandorin origin who had never passed west over Ered Lindon and come down into Ossiriand





> But eventually Galadriel became aware that Sauron again, as in the ancient days of the captivity of Melkor, had been left behind. Or rather, since Sauron had as yet no single name, and his operations had not been perceived to proceed from a single evil spirit, prime servant of Melkor, she perceived that there was an evil controlling purpose abroad in the world, and that it seemed to proceed from a source further to the East, beyond Eriador and the Misty Mountains.





> Celeborn and Galadriel therefore went eastwards, about the year 700 of the Second Age, and established the (primarily but by no means solely) Noldorin realm of Eregion. It may be that Galadriel chose it because she knew of the Dwarves of Khazad-dûm (Moria).
> ...
> Celeborn had no liking for Dwarves of any race (as he showed to Gimli in Lothlórien), and never forgave them for their part in the destruction of Doriath;
> ...
> In any case, Galadriel was more far-sighted in this than Celeborn; and *she perceived from the beginning that Middle-earth could not be saved from "the residue of evil" that Morgoth had left behind him save by a union of all the peoples who were in their way and in their measure opposed to him*. She looked upon the Dwarves also with the eye of a commander, seeing in them the finest warriors to pit against the Orcs. Moreover Galadriel was a Noldo, and she had a natural sympathy with their minds and their passionate love of crafts of hand, a sympathy much greater than that found among many of the Eldar: the Dwarves were "the Children of Aulë," and Galadriel, like others of the Noldor, had been a pupil of Aulë and Yavanna in Valinor.





> But in the meantime [while the chief city of Eregion was being erected and Sauron chose Mordor as his base of operations] the power of Galadriel and Celeborn had grown, and Galadriel, assisted in this by her friendship with the Dwarves of Moria, had come into contact with the Nandorin realm of Lórinand on the other side of the Misty Mountains..."but many Sindar and Noldor came to dwell among them, and their 'Sindarizing under the impact of Beleriandic culture began." It is not made clear when this movement into Lórinand took place; it may be that they came from Eregion by way of Khazad-dûm and under the auspices of Galadriel. *Galadriel, striving to counteract the machinations of Sauron, was successful in Lórinand*;





> But Sauron had better fortune with the Noldor of Eregion and especially with Celebrimbor, who desired in his heart to rival the skill and fame of Fëanor.
> ...
> In Eregion Sauron posed as an emissary of the Valar, sent by them to Middle-earth ("thus anticipating the Istari") or ordered by them to remain there to give aid to the Elves. *He perceived at once that Galadriel would be his chief adversary and obstacle*, and he endeavoured therefore to placate her, bearing her scorn with outward patience and courtesy.
> ...
> Sauron used all his arts upon Celebrimbor and his fellow-smiths, who had formed a society or brotherhood, very powerful in Eregion, the Gwaith-i-Mírdain; but he worked in secret, unknown to Galadriel and Celeborn.
> Before long Sauron had the Gwaith-i-Mírdain under his influence, for at first they had great profit from his instruction in secret matters of their craft. *So great became his hold on the Mírdain that at length he persuaded them to revolt against Galadriel and Celeborn and to seize power in Eregion*; and that was at some time between 1350 and 1400 of the Second Age. Galadriel thereupon left Eregion and passed through Khazad-dûm to Lórinand, ...; but Celeborn would not enter the mansions of the Dwarves, and he remained behind in Eregion, disregarded by Celebrimbor. *In Lórinand Galadriel took up rule, and defence against Sauron.*





> Sauron himself departed from Eregion about the year 1500, after the Mírdain had begun the making of the Rings of Power. Now Celebrimbor was not corrupted in heart or faith, but had accepted Sauron as what he posed to be; and when at length he discovered the existence of the One Ring *he revolted against Sauron, and went to Lórinand to take counsel once more with Galadriel.* They should have destroyed all the Rings of Power at this time, "but they failed to find the strength." Galadriel counselled him that the Three Rings of the Elves should be hidden, never used, and dispersed, far from Eregion where Sauron believed them to be.



***





Now, dear Grondster, you may not be aware of this, but as stalwart a defender you are of Fingolfin, so am I of Galadriel. And your comment above gives me cause enough to lay into _your_ favourite elf. 



Grond said:


> I know of only one elf who stormed the very gates of Hell and battled the evil Vala Melkor. Melkor's hammer fell seven times and seven times was Melkor wounded.



On the one hand, one may say that Fingolfin's deed required immeasurable amounts of valour, while on the other this may be chalked up to mere recklessness and despair, for how much of a chance did he really have of achieving what he set out to do? Sure, he wounded Morgoth, but was that a price worth paying seeing how the Noldor were robbed of a great King, who could have worked so much more good from his position had he not perished? One might also claim that the physical wounds perpetrated upon Morgoth by both Fingolfin and Thorondor caused fear to creep into his bones, a feeling unbeknown to a Vala so far, thus justifying Fingolfin's act. But it seems to me that this fear only served as a jumping-off point that greatly motivated Morgoth to retreat into the remotest pits of Angband, lick his wounds, and devise new weapons and devices, more terrible than anything witnessed up to that point, with which he would sound the final death knell for his enemies.



> Luthien died a mortal. I don't count her an elf although she did face Melkor and both she and Beren showed limitless courage.



Luthien was an elf most of her life. All the major deeds she attained took place when she was an elf, and she should be "judged" as such. We could, however, argue that Luthien had an unfair advantage over "proper" elves, being half-Maia.


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## Grond

Touche with the accent I don't know how to get to appear.

I was just baiting others with my Galadriel comments but Tolkien's story of Celeborn and Galadriel was anything but consistent. I'll review and post more in a few weeks when I can get back into my books. (We're finally moving into our dream house).

Cheers,

grond


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## YayGollum

Greetings, elf fans. It has been a while since I have posted in here. Nobody ever got around to proving me wrong. Feanor is easily and by a lot the greatest elf of all time. Mostly because he's the most entertaining. Those other guys are pretty much reruns of things that I've seen before. Boring. If you wish to be a bit geekier, though, he was the greatest orator and craftsman. Many point out that he was pathetic when it came to fighting. I'd agree but would muchly enjoy pointing out that he didn't have much of a chance to train with killing a mob of fire demons.  Those other dudes who everyone admires for their warlike skills had a lot more information to go on. Also, anti-hero winning any anti-great poll? Ah, I see. Confusion. You must be writing on the character of the evil torturer Gandalf or something. Excuse me.


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## i_love_faramir

Legolas, because he helped to save Middle Earth--and he's really hot...


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## Ithrynluin

Legolas having more votes than Beleg, Celebrimbor (!), Cirdan (!!), Ecthelion (!!), Fingon, Maedhros, Turgon, among others?


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## chrysophalax

I completely agree, Ithy...and as much as I despise praising Feanor in ANY sense, I had to vote for him. I did wrestle with this however, until I came to the conclusion that by "great", it is meant that the chosen individual must have accomplished something above and beyond those of his peers and/or people as a whole. This he did by creating the Silmarils. That alone, at least in my mind, was a one-off, never to be duplicated.


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## Burzum

Feanor: In addition to the things he did that are commonly recognized as great, I think the "evils" of him are great as well. The rebellion against the Valar, kinslaying, burning of the ships... sure, they are definitely not _good _deeds, but the idea of rebelling agasint the quasi-gods is simply astounding, and sacrificng his kindred remorselessly is somewhat dramatic, too. And of course, he was inherently the greatest, no doubt.

Fingolfin: For the most part, I see him as a benign, capable, and thus _boring_ character, but his duel with Morgoth, by far his worst decision in life, is simply _great - _for once, he becomes the furious Feanor, not the kind, wise, and boring Fingolfin. It's my favourite scene in the entire mythology of Tolkien's, and even thinking about it alone gives me chills.

Galadriel - I can't really say that she has accomplished all that much, but nonetheless she is the wisest, and probably the second greatest after Feanor in terms of inherent talent. At any rate, the destruction of Dol Guldur is something interesting.

Luthien - I dislike her, but she what she's done is great - defeating Sauron and stealing a Simaril from Morgoth while enchanting him. 

Earendil - I dislike him, too, but he was the one who saved Beleriand from being overrun by Morgoth (well, Beleriand disappeared anyway, but at least its inhabitants survived). His combat with Ancalagon is a good scene, but that's the only thing I like about him. This is a forced choice, just like the case with Luthien.

Ingwe: High King of all the Eldar. Didn't do anything, but just great by default.


Ones I would have _liked_ to mention, but cannot, because they aren't that great: Aredhel (didn't do _anything_ besides giving birth to Maeglin, who isn't that great either), Ecthelion & Glorfindel (slew Balrogs... but what else? - besides the minimal involvement of Glorfiendel in the War of the Ring, of course).


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## Sir Gawain d'Orchany

Elrond: battled the forces of darkness throughout his life, formed the fellowship, taught any who wished to learn.

Legolas: member of the fellowship, epic Archer, good friend

Gil-galad: helped defeat Sauron the first time, original bearer of Vilya, High King


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## Jordan Thomas

Khôr’nagan said:


> He was of those who were last to leave. But even so, he fought to his _own_ end for the _people_ of Gondolin, too. That's good enough for _"he stayed to the last to defend Gondolin"_ to apply, as far as I'm concerned. And besides, it's not like Glorfindel doesn't deserve it... he _more_ than deserves it.[/
> 
> 
> Inderjit S said:
> 
> 
> 
> *posted by Lord Gil-Galad fingolfin as he had the gall to challenge melkor at Uttumno, and even though he lost the servants of Melkor did not feel the dark lord was victorious *
> 
> That because _Ereinion_ is only used in the _Shibboleth of Feanor_ circa.1968 and therfore the use of 'Erenion' was only a editorial amendment by C.T in the _Quenta Silmarillion_ and _Of The Rings of Power_.
> 
> *posted by Lord Gil-Galad*
> 
> Where is it ever stated that Finwe didn't like the name Feanor (Feanaro, the Quenya form. Finwe wouldn't have known the Sindarin form, which spelt correctly would be
> _Faenor_ the use 'Feanor' was a scribal confusion). _Laws and Customs of the Eldar_ (HoME 10) and the _Shibboleth of Feanor_ (HoME 12) state that all Elves had 'mother-names' and 'father-names'. Feanaro was his mother-name and his father name was MinyaFinwe (First Finwe) and was latter changed to Kurufinwe because of his talents. It means 'crafty' Finwe, not 'son of Finwe' that would be Finwion which is given in 'Laws and Customs of the Eldar' (HoME 10)
> 
> *posted by Lord Gil-Galad*
> 
> It means 'spirit of fire' not 'heart of fire'.
> 
> *posted by Lord Gil-Galad*
> 
> I don't know which version your working with here. I assume it is the one in the _Shibboeth of Feanor_ about how she endured her pain until he was fully grown and then laid down and died, which contradicts the one given in the _Published Silmairllion_ that Feanor had never seen his mother, and she died soon after his birth. In the latter version, she never asks Feanor's permission to rest.
> 
> *posted by ithrynluin*
> 
> Feanor was never given any knowledge by Melkor.
> 
> 
> *posted by ithrynluin*
> 
> Celebrimbor was noted as being a Elf of 'wholly different temper' from Curufin and therefore Feanor.
> 
> 
> 
> By that logic, Gimli is the greatest Dwarf, Pippin greatest Hobbit, Aragorn, Eomer, Imrahil, etc greatest men....you get the point. The situation was 'hopeless' anyway, this was their main form of hope to survive.
> 
> *posted by ithrynluin*
> 
> I think he may be referring to the potency of his spirit, and the statement that there was never a Elf like him.
> 
> *my list*
> 
> *Feanor* It was because of his deeds that all the things described in the Silmarillion, for good or bad, took place. He set forward the history of Arda, if he wasn't born Arda wouldn't be the same. Also one of the three 'greatest' Elves as said by Tolkien.
> 
> *Finwe* Pretty darn cute..I mean a *great* hot elf. *Begins to hum 'Finwe was a hottie, with his grey-blue eyes*
> 
> *Fingoflin* Challenged Morogth and gave him a great fight and a great Elf anyway.
> 
> *Finrod Felagund* Not the best looking (hehe, Nom  ) and said to have poor body odour *but* still a noble, great Elf who was instrumental in the tale of Beren and Luthien and in mine and Nom's pervy convos. (Whoops!)
> 
> *Maedhros* Held Himring against Morgoth tell the Nirnaeth and in the Bragollach he was so scary that the Ork's were too scared (and short, unless on stilts of course) to look him in the face. Also performed deeds of great valour and liked to start the morning with a bowl of Rice Krispies, or so we're told. Woodja woodja woo.
> 
> *Beleg* Great Elf, lover of Tur..friend of Turin sorry, and selfless and a great hunter. Had a niche for making lasagne supposedly.
> 
> *Celebrimbor* Created the Rings of power, showered three times a day.
> 
> *Galadriel* Married Celeborn, you have to indeed be a great Elf to marry that bore. a great Elf anyway, and one of the three greatest according to Tolkien.
> 
> *Fingon* A brave, selfless Elf.
> 
> *Gil-galad* The Elven king. Challenged Sauron and allows for many posts by me on who his father is.
> 
> *Mablung* Does there have to be a reason? My hands are tired.
Click to expand...


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## Miguel

> "_Of all the children of Finwe he is justly most renowned"_



I love this illustration btw, i really like them not looking so_"human". _Like if you happen to see one, you'll know they know better just by looking at em.


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## Gilgaearel

Glorfindel. Because he was the only one who came back from the Halls of Mandos.


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## CirdanLinweilin

Lúthien. Stood and danced amidst the presence of the actual devil and yet kept soldiering on.






That takes _immense courage.

_
CL


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## Eebounnie

Really tough choice. I picked Finrod, Beleg, Maedhros and Glorfindel.

For *Finrod *I really don't have any valid reason I just love him, don't ask me why.

*Beleg Strongbow *was an amazing hunter and a great (loyal) friend to Turin.

*Maedhros *eldest of the seven Sons of Fëanor, excellent warrior and diplomat, he did not participate in the burning of the Teleri ships and the Thangorodrim thing ...

*Glorfindel* by far my favorite Elf and all the reasons have already been said before me.


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## Imrahil

I picked Beleg, Fingolfin, Earendil, Finrod and Cirdan. Most of the reasons have already been stated but I didn't see any for Beleg
He was perhaps the greatest archer in Middle-earth(considered so in his time). He defended Doriath's borders countless times. He took part in the Hunting of the Wolf and the Nirnaeth Arnoediad(The only two from Doriath to come, with Mablung). He saved Turin from the winter and took him to Doriath, where he taught him the crucial skills he needed. He saved him from complete exile during his trial and went looking for him years. He then co founded the land of Dor-Cuarthol, where many refugees came and his name was feared by the Enemy. He saved Androg from his arrow wound and defended Dor-Cuarthol when the orcs ransacked it, and after defeat, set straight out to find Turin. He saved Gwindor along the way and feeded him. Then he died while saving Turin, if not for the slip of his blade


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## Olorgando

Galadriel. Saw through the almost autistically one-sided Fëanor, her only serious competitor for that title, like glass, and saw his evil pride, putting even Manwë to shame. Tutored by Melian the Maia (now if only the latter's hubby Thingol had listened maybe 3% as much). Original bearer of one of the Three Great Elven Rings who kept it to the end (unlike Gil-galad and Cirdan). Saw virtue in the Dwarves (in the rough-edged character that these Aulëans have) that escaped all other Elves. Wisest by far of all Elves, and so next to Gandalf, Middle-earth manifestation of the wisest of the Maiar Olórin, most instrumental in the opposition to and final defeat of Sauron. As Arwen's grandmother, more sympathetic to the young Aragorn than Elrond (OK, as the dad of a very beautiful daughter he was very critical, as such dads are, of any suitors - *all* suitors - Elves are actually only human, it seems). etc. etc. etc.


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