# Hand to hand combat tactic



## Hisoka Morrow (Jun 3, 2020)

Hand to hand combat tactic always represents a standard of soldiers' quality, in particular when having a last stand in battles. Yet it seems Toilkein seldom or even never used it to describe any armed forces quality. Let's discuss about anything involves hand to hand combat in Middle Earth, such as which race hand to hand combat is the best, or why Toilkein rarely mentioned it, and so forth^^


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## Deleted member 12094 (Jun 3, 2020)

I'm afraid I can contribute little here. ME is often more about battles than hand-to-hand combat.

Of course, we know of individual preferences by weapon: Dwarves prefer an axe, Dúnedain (I assume) a sword; likewise, the Elves arrows and a bow (although you can hardly consider that as hand-to-hand combat). Mentioned are also the scimitars for the Easterlings. And, as you know, the Rohirrim fought on horseback.

How good or bad that plays out for individual contests is beyond me to know. Most of the time I use a mouse, but I can click on it ferociously! 👿

I once came across a presumption that in very old traditional Japanese warfare the warriors, while in battle, would seek out each other's equals by rank, since they refused or avoided to get in combat with lesser opponents (if we have any Japanese members here, they might confirm or infirm this?). Anyway: I frequently met this idea in JRRT's writings when single combat does get mentioned. Just a few examples of how leaders went for opposing leaders (I'm sure this list can be easily expanded):

Dáin Ironfoot killed Azog personally (the Battle of Azanulbizar).
Aragorn killed the leader of the werewolves before the Fellowship went on to Moria.
Aragorn killed the captain in the chamber of Mazarbul and later the captain of the guards at the gate of Moria.
Éomer killed the captain of the orcs who had captured Pippin and Merry.
Merry killed the leader of the Ruffians.
As a more isolated case, Gandalf, being a great leader too, killed the formidable Balrog in single combat too, though he (sort of) perished in doing so.
JRRT probably considered it noble when leaders would take on their mightiest opponents in personal combat: he created contrasts with the coward-looking manners by which leaders of the "good guys" were taken down. Examples:

The end of Eärnur.
The slaying of Balin.
The incapacitating of Theoden.
Saruman's intended killing of Frodo.
In conclusion: your tread title looked somewhat surprising at first but surely merits a place here indeed!  Well done!


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## Tulukastaz (Jun 3, 2020)

I guess this is where Tulkas the Vala enters the picture - he uses his hands to grapple opponent to submission.




> Tulkas Astaldo





> the Wrestler, the Champion of Valinor, and last of the Valar to come to Arda, and the husband of Nessa.





in the Book of Lost Tales - there is one Vala who liked to fight hand to hand. I can't remember the name. In the Silmarillion - He (and his Wife) are not mentioned in the music of the Ainur.


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## Olorgando (Jun 3, 2020)

I found "Makar" in my German lexicon (not in the two English ones!), and when checking the BoLT I index, found "Makar and his fierce sister Meässë" on several pages. But they seemed to be quite partial to using weapons, not necessarily to hand-to-hand combat.
A kind of "Melkor-faction" in Valinor, perhaps a try by JRRT to include an equivalent of Ares / Mars in his legendarium. He abandoned it.
But as to hand-to-hand, this would seem to be very much a characteristic of Tulkas, who didn't need weapons. He could take down any opponent, no matter with what weapons the opponent was equipped with, bare-handed (and probably often -fisted), and very quickly.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Jun 4, 2020)

Thx for join^^In addition, it seems at least one kind of martial arts is mentioned-wrestle , in the description of Tulkas VS Melkor^^. Yet I wonder what type of wrestle will be^^(After all, it won't be stuff like WWE, cause it's used for real combat). 
By the way, I wonder if Toikein has ever mentioned military in Middle-Earth will get training courses of hand-to-hand combat or not^^

One more strange thing I must mention is that Toikein seldom or even never use hand-to-hand combat to describe the ferocity of battles, at least the frequency describing it in factual ways seems never. These may be all the bloodiest battles in Toikein's series had ever mentioned-Unumbered tears, Gondolin, Dagolar(Last alliance), Gladdon field accident. Among them, only Gladdon field accident is "implied" that the orcs used -hand-to-hand combat.
For instance, such description about siege of Gondolin seldom appears in Toikein's series-The Hammer of Wrath division only seek not to fail their honor instead of victory, when their ammo are gone, they use cold steel. When their cold steel are broken, they use fists and teeth.

About military combat personnel quality, Toikein never use hand-to-hand combat to describe it. For example, Toikein never says a Dol-Amorth dismounted cataphract drags a Easterling cataphrcat penetrating with a spear from his horse.



Tulukastaz said:


> in the Book of Lost Tales - there is one Vala who liked to fight hand to hand. I can't remember the name. In the Silmarillion - He (and his Wife) are not mentioned in the music of the Ainur.


Is that Tulkas?^^



Merroe said:


> I'm afraid I can contribute little here. ME is often more about battles than hand-to-hand combat.
> 
> Of course, we know of individual preferences by weapon: Dwarves prefer an axe, Dúnedain (I assume) a sword; likewise, the Elves arrows and a bow (although you can hardly consider that as hand-to-hand combat). Mentioned are also the scimitars for the Easterlings. And, as you know, the Rohirrim fought on horseback.
> 
> ...


I'm glad I make sense XDD. 
Yet here comes a problem that if Toikein really honors taking on mighty foes, then why he seldom uses such ways to describe soldiers' quality For example, he seldom mentions good guys soldiers fight with empty hands when out of all kinds of weapons. Unless the only answer is that soldiers aren't the emphasized parts^^


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## Tulukastaz (Jun 4, 2020)

Hisoka Morrow said:


> Is that Tulkas?^^



No, I couldn't remember the name. Olorgando found it.



Olorgando said:


> I found "Makar" in my German lexicon (not in the two English ones!), and when checking the BoLT I index, found "Makar and his fierce sister Meässë" on several pages. But they seemed to be quite partial to using weapons, not necessarily to hand-to-hand combat.
> A kind of "Melkor-faction" in Valinor, perhaps a try by JRRT to include an equivalent of Ares / Mars in his legendarium. He abandoned it.
> But as to hand-to-hand, this would seem to be very much a characteristic of Tulkas, who didn't need weapons. He could take down any opponent, no matter with what weapons the opponent was equipped with, bare-handed (and probably often -fisted), and very quickly.



Yes, this is true! Makar was the one I was thinking of. He and his sister Meássë (Warrior Goddess, Amazon with bloodied arms), liked to fight and wage war to say the least (battle-loving spirits). Not direct servants of any Valar, and they had been close to Melkor (as he attracted some in the Music of the Ainur) What you say is correct - they were not necessarily using hand-to-hand, since they preferred weapons, Meássë was armor-clad, equipped with Spear and Shield. In Makar's case it is the same. He wore armor and had a Sword and a Shield - and rode on horseback. . . and that Makar and Tulkas were "sparring partners" - they trained Martial Arts. This is where hand to hand combat comes into the picture.

*



Makar

Click to expand...

*


> was an Ainu of Battlelust and war who rejoiced in Storms and earth-quakes and the furies of the ancient seas.He was the brother of Measse, both of the siblings lived in a dark hall in northern Aman with a following of battle-loving spirits.They were no direct servants of any of the Valar but in the beginning had been close to Melkor before his fall.The only Vala who had kept up contact to the couple was Tulkas who used to excercise Martial Arts with Makar on and off.The two Spirits of war also were the keepers of the Weaponry and Armour of the Valar and chosen by Manwe as the guardians of the northern mountain paths of the Pelori.






Hisoka Morrow said:


> Thx for join^^In addition, it seems at least one kind of martial arts is mentioned-wrestle , in the description of Tulkas VS Melkor^^. Yet I wonder what type of wrestle will be^^(After all, it won't be stuff like WWE, cause it's used for real combat).
> By the way, I wonder if Toikein has ever mentioned military in Middle-Earth will get training courses of hand-to-hand combat or not^^
> 
> One more strange thing I must mention is that Toikein seldom or even never use hand-to-hand combat to describe the ferocity of battles, at least the frequency describing it in factual ways seems never. These may be all the bloodiest battles in Toikein's series had ever mentioned-Unumbered tears, Gondolin, Dagolar(Last alliance), Gladdon field accident. Among them, only Gladdon field accident is "implied" that the orcs used -hand-to-hand combat.
> ...



Yes, I've noticed this. The details of the battles are described briefly -if at all. And that means that the few descriptions leave even fewer hand-to-hand combat descriptions. But I doubt not as you mention about the Hammer of Wrath division in Gondolin - using fists and teeth, if no better weapon was available.

As for Big Folks, Dwarves, Elves and Hobbits... they had more of an "Tulkas approach". Grappling. Old warrior cultures like Vikings and Samurai, had grappling. So if they had no weapon in the battle - they could try to strike with their limbs (Box & Kick) or grapple with their hands and in some cases Headbutt (Especially useful wearing a Helmet). But even WITH a weapon the fights in battles go to the ground.




In the Battles of Middle Earth - hand to hand was quite often used, and rarely described if ever, I think because it was the last resort situations. It happened mostly to those who were already on the way out of the battle. If Aragorn would have broken his sword, or lost it - he would have had a hard time at the Black Gate with hand to hand combat, usually what weapon is available is picked up and used - he could probably have disarmed an Orc - take its Spear and use it against the other foes. Then switch to a fallen Gondor sword.


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## Olorgando (Jun 4, 2020)

Let's be honest, in his graphic descriptions - or more precisely the lack of them - JRRT was staying at or below a film (US) rating of PG-13. Just spontaneously,, the most grisly description in the "Hobbit sequence" that I can remember is the scene when Beorn has returned from scouting (while Bilbo, Gandalf and the Dwarves are safe within his house), and shows them a severed Goblin heard rammed on something spike-like, and a Warg skin nailed to something else. Can anyone come up with something in LoTR the book that matches this scene in a children's book?!?
And as to hand-to-hand (plus feet and knees and elbows and nails and teeth and ...) combat, there would be the scene that Sam found at the tower of Cirith Ungol in RoTK, where Shagrat and Gorbag's troops had massacred each other in that tower - making Sam's job of rescuing Frodo just so immensely more simple …


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## Tulukastaz (Jun 4, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> Let's be honest, in his graphic descriptions - or more precisely the lack of them - JRRT was staying at or below a film (US) rating of PG-13. Just spontaneously,, the most grisly description in the "Hobbit sequence" that I can remember is the scene when Beorn has returned from scouting (while Bilbo, Gandalf and the Dwarves are safe within his house), and shows them a severed Goblin heard rammed on something spike-like, and a Warg skin nailed to something else. Can anyone come up with something in LoTR the book that matches this scene in a children's book?!?
> And as to hand-to-hand (plus feet and knees and elbows and nails and teeth and ...) combat, there would be the scene that Sam found at the tower of Cirith Ungol in RoTK, where Shagrat and Gorbag's troops had massacred each other in that tower - making Sam's job of rescuing Frodo just so immensely more simple …



That's right! In the movies version they actually had a Mordor "servant" orc jumpkick a fighter orc.



*LOTR The Return of the King - Extended Edition - The Tower of Cirith Ungol Part 1*






This is the fight scene. Movie version. I'm not sure about the amount of weapons used in Cirith Ungol in that brawl, described in the book.

I remember the statues that were at the front opening. In the book it is described how Frodo had difficult with that - it was hard to leave the tower.


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## Alcuin (Jun 4, 2020)

Tolkien is rarely concerned with the complex execution of combat. His style and stories are more akin to those found in _Beowulf_ and the Norse sagas, where battles and feats are recounted, but the details of their execution are mostly elided. The same is true in _Iliad_, where a great number of feats and battles are recalled, but the finer details of their accomplishment largely untold. The gory results might be recounted, but not the precise points of their achievement. 

George Silver, an early Renaissance Englishman and contemporary of Shakespeare’s who left behind an extensive written record of fighting techniques focusing on swordplay, derides those who avoid physical combat such as punching, kicking, and so forth. 
There is no manner of teaching comparable to the old ancient teaching, that is, first their quarters, then their wards, blows, thrusts, and breaking of thrusts, then their closes and grips, striking with the hilts, daggers, bucklers, wrestlings, striking with the foot or knee in the cods, and all these are safely defended in learning perfectly of the grips.
George Silver, _Paradoxes Of Defence_, 1599​


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## Aldarion (Jun 5, 2020)

Merroe said:


> Of course, we know of individual preferences by weapon: Dwarves prefer an axe, Dúnedain (I assume) a sword; likewise, the Elves arrows and a bow (although you can hardly consider that as hand-to-hand combat). Mentioned are also the scimitars for the Easterlings. And, as you know, the Rohirrim fought on horseback.



Is that really the case? If anything, when I think about elven troops, my first thought are spearmen, not archers.


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## Olorgando (Jun 5, 2020)

Alcuin said:


> ...
> George Silver, an early Renaissance Englishman and contemporary of Shakespeare’s who left behind an extensive written record of fighting techniques focusing on swordplay, derides those who avoid physical combat such as punching, kicking, and so forth.
> 
> There is no manner of teaching comparable to the old ancient teaching, that is, first their quarters, then their wards, blows, thrusts, and breaking of thrusts, then closes and grips, striking with the hilts, daggers, bucklers, wrestlings, striking with the foot or knee in the cods, and all these are safely defended in learning perfectly of the grips.​George Silver, Paradoxes Of Defence, 1599​


Cods. Yeah (*ouch!*). So forget all of that knight's chivalry business as propaganda. When things get ugly, everyone fights "dirty". as per our misguided late-chivalric delusions.


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## CirdanLinweilin (Jun 5, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> Cods. Yeah (*ouch!*). So forget all of that knight's chivalry business as propaganda. When things get ugly, everyone fights "dirty". as per our misguided late-chivalric delusions.


I mean, in a life-or-death situation you are kind of forced to, no way around it.


CL


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## Olorgando (Jun 5, 2020)

CirdanLinweilin said:


> I mean, in a life-or-death situation you are kind of forced to, no way around it.
> CL


Quite.
But Hollywood fed the US (and the rest of the world) a line of solid droppings from the entire animal kingdom for over 40 years.
Now I usually don't think that going very graphic on such stuff adds anything to films (with very few exceptions).
But some of the contortions those west-coasters went to on the topic probably elicited guffaws by all but the most naive.


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## Tulukastaz (Jun 5, 2020)

Fighting "dirty" is also relative. Kicking an Orc or an Easterling in the groin or poking his eyes or biting him - is less efficient than punching in the throat, but a strike to the throat is "kinda dirty". Just because a technique is "dirty" doesn't automatically mean it is efficient in a fight between life and death. I think the Orcs were more keen to bite and claw compared to the Free Peoples of Middle Earth - seems kind of obvious, now when I write this.

But I definitely think that the battles were ugly & dirty. 

If I would be in a battle and loose my weapon, and I had full armor - I would punch an Orc in the mouth with my gauntlet, and try to reduce the amount of teeth, so he can't bite my friends with as much damage. Definitely a desperate move. I fear that if you loose your weapon in a battle - you are pretty much done, unless you manage to get a hold of a new weapon. 

Beorn did fight "hand to hand" in the Battle of the Five Armies, but then again he had bearclaws.


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## Deleted member 12094 (Jun 5, 2020)

Aldarion said:


> Is that really the case? If anything, when I think about elven troops, my first thought are spearmen, not archers.



Point taken Aldarion, about your doubts here. So, I based my impression on Elven skills following what Galadriel seemed to appreciate about Legolas, by gifting him a bow, that would prove to serve him well afterwards. Not much more, from my side. Feel welcome to share more resources!


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## Elthir (Jun 5, 2020)

Mmm. Bear claw.


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## Aldarion (Jun 5, 2020)

Merroe said:


> Point taken Aldarion, about your doubts here. So, I based my impression on Elven skills following what Galadriel seemed to appreciate about Legolas, by gifting him a bow, that would prove to serve him well afterwards. Not much more, from my side. Feel welcome to share more resources!



Legolas already uses bow as a primary weapon, though. But when Turgon leaves Gondolin, his forces IIRC form a phalanx - which means that they consisted of spearmen. And iconic weapon of Gil-galad is a spear, not a bow. Further, at Battle of Five Armies, there are 1 000 spearmen and about as much archers. This is much more similar to Byzantine combined-arms forces which had four spearmen for each three archers, than it is to any archery-dominant armies.


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## Olorgando (Jun 5, 2020)

Aldarion said:


> Is that really the case? If anything, when I think about elven troops, my first thought are spearmen, not archers.


I actually managed to find the reference about preferred weapons of the three Houses of the Elves. It's in HoMe volume 10 "Morgoth's Ring", Part Three "The Later _Quenta Silmarillion_", I "The First Phase", 3 "Of the Coming of the Elves", §30, in square brackets following "Other names in song and tale are given to these peoples." The equations for weapons are
Vanyar = Spear-elves
Noldor = Sword-elves
Teleri = Arrow-elves

Now specifically the Noldor who were at the center of the action in the _Quenta Silmarillion_ part of The Sil are very likely to have augmented their weaponry, and I would guess in contact with the Dwarves (though both Thingol, and Eöl, _the _quintessential Dark Elf, must have had far earlier contacts with the Dwarves during the three Valian Ages of Melko's captivity in Valinor).

But Legolas was very certainly of the Teleri, though Thranduil's folk (and many of those of Lórien) were Silvan Elves. So for Legolas, the bow would seem to be quite the natural weapon. The one he had after the stay in Lórien is called a great bow of Lórien, more powerful than those common in Thranduil's realm, with which he shot a fell beast out from under a Nazgûl patrolling the Anduin in the chapter "The Great River" in Book Two of "Fellowship".


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## Elthir (Jun 5, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> ( . . . ) the most grisly description in the "Hobbit sequence" that I can remember is the scene when Beorn has returned from scouting ( . . . ), and shows them a severed Goblin heard rammed on something spike-like, and a Warg skin nailed to something else. Can anyone come up with something in LoTR the book that matches this scene in a children's book?!?




Maybe the goblin head upon a stake in _The Riders of Rohan_ for instance, or the heads of the fallen of Osgiliath, and others, hailing down (_The Siege of Gondor_), branded with the token of the Lidless Eye.

As for skin, all I can remember at the moment is Arya Stark changing faces 🐾


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## Olorgando (Jun 5, 2020)

Elthir said:


> As for skin, all I can remember at the moment is Arya Stark changing faces 🐾


That sounds more like what Beorn did in switching back and forth between man and bear, that "were-" stuff, but I'm totally ignorant of GoT or GRRM's books (had to look up Arya Stark in Wiki).
But to call what Beorn did *to* the Warg "skin-changing" is stretching that concept a bit! 🤢


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## Elthir (Jun 5, 2020)

Well, I just wanted to give Arya a nod in a Tolkien forum . . .
. . . for no real reason. But anyway.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Jun 9, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> That sounds more like what Beorn did in switching back and forth between man and bear, that "were-" stuff, but I'm totally ignorant of GoT or GRRM's books (had to look up Arya Stark in Wiki).
> But to call what Beorn did *to* the Warg "skin-changing" is stretching that concept a bit! 🤢


I thought it'll turn you on XD. After all, Toikein's description about the evil creatures really make them beatable assholes XD I wonder if has Beorn done this "skin-changing" to those Black Numenorian, implying the so-called TOP-1% in modern days, how joyful it'll be


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## Hisoka Morrow (Jun 10, 2020)

Aldarion said:


> Is that really the case? If anything, when I think about elven troops, my first thought are spearmen, not archers.


I think it depends on which elvish race. Your impression about elves must be about Noldor without doubt, after all, Toikein's description about Noldor seems making them melee-addictive bad ass according to their roles as the main combat power in all military operation they involve



Aldarion said:


> Legolas already uses bow as a primary weapon, though. But when Turgon leaves Gondolin, his forces IIRC form a phalanx - which means that they consisted of spearmen. And iconic weapon of Gil-galad is a spear, not a bow. Further, at Battle of Five Armies, there are 1 000 spearmen and about as much archers. This is much more similar to Byzantine combined-arms forces which had four spearmen for each three archers, than it is to any archery-dominant armies.


I think Sindar elves will be archery-dominant. After all, they usually fight in terrain favors such style like forests. That's why they met bloody-hells in the battle of Dagolard when they fought in open field.


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## Aldarion (Jun 11, 2020)

Hisoka Morrow said:


> I think Sindar elves will be archery-dominant. After all, they usually fight in terrain favors such style like forests. That's why they met bloody-hells in the battle of Dagolard when they fought in open field.



Force at Battle of Five Armies was from Mirkwood (thus Silvan elves but ruled by Sindar) and they had a thousand spearmen and thousand archers. Though case could be made that this was an expeditionary force and that they had many more archers back home.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Aug 5, 2020)

Tulukastaz said:


> Fighting "dirty" is also relative. Kicking an Orc or an Easterling in the groin or poking his eyes or biting him - is less efficient than punching in the throat, but a strike to the throat is "kinda dirty". Just because a technique is "dirty" doesn't automatically mean it is efficient in a fight between life and death. I think the Orcs were more keen to bite and claw compared to the Free Peoples of Middle Earth - seems kind of obvious, now when I write this.
> 
> But I definitely think that the battles were ugly & dirty.
> 
> ...


Looking at IP man 4 and LOTR:The 2 Towers(Gimli slashing the Uruk's dick)😁😁😁😁😁



Aldarion said:


> Force at Battle of Five Armies was from Mirkwood (thus Silvan elves but ruled by Sindar) and they had a thousand spearmen and thousand archers. Though case could be made that this was an expeditionary force and that they had many more archers back home.


Hmm.......there're more other stuff I wonder that can define " dominant ", for instance, training time, budget ratio they got, and so on^^. For instance, Byzantine infantries took much more personnel ratio in the Byzantine Army, yet we won't consider them as "infantry dominant army".

It's obvious Toikein seldom gave specific data to describe each faction's military power such as weapons' number and quality, combat personnel training time, armor's durability and so forth. All such data I got is only combat personnel's number mostly, vessels' once (The Corsairs got 50 Dromonds), and Mithril(No valid limit) XD


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## Aldarion (Aug 6, 2020)

Hisoka Morrow said:


> Hmm.......there're more other stuff I wonder that can define " dominant ", for instance, training time, budget ratio they got, and so on^^. For instance, Byzantine infantries took much more personnel ratio in the Byzantine Army, yet we won't consider them as "infantry dominant army".
> 
> It's obvious Toikein seldom gave specific data to describe each faction's military power such as weapons' number and quality, combat personnel training time, armor's durability and so forth. All such data I got is only combat personnel's number mostly, vessels' once (The Corsairs got 50 Dromonds), and Mithril(No valid limit) XD



True enough. But if that were so, you would expect to see spearmen used to shield archers, much like Byzantines used infantry to screen their cavalry from enemy missile troops. Yet we see spearmen themselves used as an offensive arm to dislodge the enemy from their positions.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Aug 6, 2020)

Aldarion said:


> True enough. But if that were so, you would expect to see spearmen used to shield archers, much like Byzantines used infantry to screen their cavalry from enemy missile troops. Yet we see spearmen themselves used as an offensive arm to dislodge the enemy from their positions.


I see, so obviously these spearmen aren't irreplaceable. That's why you made the conclusion that Sindarin are combined-arms dominant, cause none of their units could fight alone, got it ^^
(P.S. Some proof has mentioned Byzantine Kataphracts could replace the role of heavy infantry in their battles against the Franks during the Justinain's reconquest over the Western Empire, that's why it's issued Byzantine is a cavalry dominant military or not).


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