# Education in ME(back to subject)



## Hisoka Morrow (May 11, 2021)

back to education
Thus...no matter what the political system is, education is always the backbone of a nation.
@1stvermont My dear, Gondor did have a imperial age, the so-called "series of Marine Kings", when it's described as "kids's toys were jewel". Under such tremendous demand for all kinds of personnel human resources, yeah, massive education must be absolutely required. For instance, the fewer illiteracy among the army's personnel, the lesser time you need to finish their training.
@Alcuin Are there any source mentioned by JRRT or his authorized stuff mention the comparison between educational resources with any other stuff such as luxury, just like the example that Mithril compared to land's ownership's price, mentioned by Gandalf? After all, if Gondor's economic was as powerful as "kids's toys were jewel", I wondered if national common education was practicable. After all, you know, education really reduce all kinds of budget cost for personnel elements.
@Olorgando OK, my mistake for considering USA as "democratic". Back to business, do you have any source mentioned by JRRT or his authorized stuff mention wise educational policies, to lead to the whole ME's greater good?


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## Alcuin (May 11, 2021)

Hisoka Morrow said:


> @Alcuin Are there any source mentioned by JRRT or his authorized stuff mention the comparison between educational resources with any other stuff such as luxury, just like the example that Mithril compared to land's ownership's price, mentioned by Gandalf? After all, if Gondor's economic was as powerful as "kids's toys were jewel", I wondered if national common education was practicable. After all, you know, education really reduce all kinds of budget cost for personnel elements.


Not as far as I know. Tolkien commented (_Letters_ 153, 154, 160) that various people had written him asking for more information on subjects such as economics, languages, and other information regarding the milieu of Middle-earth than he could provide. Education is probably one of those subjects, Hisoka Morrow. 

Your question seems to regard education in the sense of a modern nation-state. I do not think you can regard the various political entities of Middle-earth as nation-states. Many of them are nations, in the sense that _nations_ consist of related tribes and those tribes of related clans. In that regard, nations are a group of related people, often (but not always) acting together under the rule of a king or chieftain. They are _states_ to the degree that they develop and maintain bureaucracies to enable the smoother continuous functioning of the social order; but they are not, I think, _states_ in the modern sense that they are driven or led by political or philosophical dogma. Instead, I think their philosophical and belief system is closer to what existed in Europe (since that is what Tolkien used as his primary template for Middle-earth) a millennium or 1500 years ago, beliefs and outlooks based upon tribal tradition mixed with philosophies, science, and engineering provided either from outside sources (the Elves) or from ancient times (old Númenórean or Elvish works in place of old Roman or Greek or Egyptian or works, for instance), tempered by practical considerations of surviving day-to-day and from winter to winter, as well as defending the tribe from invaders who can pillage or murder the tribe. Policy seems to me driven by dynastic considerations: the Ship-kings of Gondor sought to recreate, as best they could, the maritime dominance of old Númenor, It is the famed glory (in memory and through received tales, of course) of lost Númenor that drives the Dúnedain of Middle-earth to strive for achievement, along with the natural human desire to better oneself and one’s family. There is no state “budget” regarding education or defense at this stage: as in the Dark and Middle Ages, the expenses of government are also the expenses of the royal or noble households, shared out among the common folk through taxes, tithes of food and goods, and common labor required of local people (such as the Hobbits’ requirement to maintain the bridge over the Brandywine).


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## Olorgando (May 12, 2021)

What probably cannot be overestimated is the effect that Johannes Gutenberg's invention of the printing press with movable letters had on literacy, and thus education - and the Reformation, for that matter.
When practically everything written consists of manuscripts - think of the 1986 film "The Name of the Rose" starring Sean Connery in one of the best roles of his life - and Ron Perlman in one of his most memorable ones: monasteries were the places manuscript were held, and copied, as universities were only slowly starting to be formed (and a vast majority probably even of rulers were illiterate), there's not a whole lot of reading material to go around. That's why churches needed some frescoes and the like on the walls so that the vast majority of the population could get an idea about what the guy in the pulpit was preaching about.

Did M-e have a Gutenberg? I certainly don't have the impression. But maybe the system of scribes was more wide-spread than in Europe for about 1000 years between the fall of the Western Roman Empire and Gutenberg. Not that literacy was as wide-spread as we take for granted nowadays - and depending on the definition, it is not as wide-spread *today* as many of us may believe, certainly nowhere near 100%. There's Gaffer Gamgee's (in-) famous remark in "A Long-expected Party", perhaps around page 4 of the chapter: "Mr. Bilbo has learned [Sam] his letters - *meaning no harm, mark you, and I hope no harm will come of it*."


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (May 12, 2021)

We also have Aragorn's words to Gimli, characterizing the Rohirrim as _"wise but unlearned, writing no books but singing many songs, after the manner of the children of Men before the Dark Years."_

Which is not only indicating that they are mostly, if not completely, illiterate, but also contrasting them with the other Free Peoples. 

The Gaffer was , of course, talking to other "rustic hobbits" of his class; literacy was apparently taken as a given by the "better sort".


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## Alcuin (May 13, 2021)

Besides movable type, there is another important consideration in the spread of literacy. Egypt and China made widespread use of _paper_ derived from plant fiber. Northern Europe in particular was damp and cool; most of its writing was done on _parchment_, treated sheep- or goatskin. Parchment is far more expensive and labor-intensive than papyrus or rice paper. During the Roman Empire, literacy was relatively widespread because teaching people to write was fairly inexpensive. After the fall of the Western Empire, not only were the barbarians mostly illiterate, they lacked an inexpensive medium on which to write. Writing and literacy did persist throughout the Dark Ages (about AD 450 – AD 800), but in northern Europe, it was mostly confined to monasteries and the clergy. As paper once again became more readily available, literacy spread again as well. 

Scribes were an honored profession in Egypt, Greece, and Rome, and laws and edicts were carved into stone or onto thin metal plates for public inspection so that all could read them. And even among the less civilized Celts and Germanic peoples, ogham and runic inscriptions were widespread on stone and in metalwork. I understand that literacy was also widespread in Persia. Nor was writing an Old World monopoly: Writing was independently developed in the New World. Mayan codices persisted for five centuries after the fall of the great Mayan Empire, and while Spanish conquistadors and priests destroyed most out of misguided superstition, a handful remain until this day. The Inca used _quipu_, a system of knotted string, to maintain accurate records. _Lukasa_, or “memory boards,” were used in the kingdom of Luba in the Congo. I have read that African court records and royal decrees were recorded using textiles, and I have also read accounts of North American Indians reciting history from textiles.

Anyone could scratch ogham or runes, and I suppose during the height of the Mayan civilization, literacy might also have been relatively widespread. Quipi and lukasa are far more esoteric. 

To put this into perspective, the St John’s Bible is a completely handwritten Bible commissioned by the Benedictine Saint John's University in Minnesota in 1998 and completed in 2011. At least 30 different people worked on the book, which is in seven volumes each of which is 2 feet by 1½ feet (61 cm x 46 cm) weighing 20 pounds (9 kg) apiece. The manuscript is ink on vellum (high-quality parchment) and is reported to have cost $ 8 million (£ 5.7 million, € 6.6 million). 

The Gideons will _give_ you a printed Bible in just about any language you choose for free. 

Literacy is usually more widespread when the means of reading and writing are inexpensive.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (May 13, 2021)

I used to fantasize about doing a "Medieval manuscript" version of LOTR, something like the Luttrell Psalter:



But as I possess neither the artistic nor calligraphic abilities -- not to mention the remaining lifespan! -- necessary, the project remains fantasy. 

Someone should do it, though. 😊


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## Olorgando (May 13, 2021)

Alcuin said:


> Besides movable type, there is another important consideration in the spread of literacy. Egypt and China made widespread use of _paper_ derived from plant fiber.
> ...
> Literacy is usually more widespread when the means of reading and writing are inexpensive.


That plant fiber in Europe at the time of Gutenberg was mainly recycled cloth (rags). But there seems to have been enough to go around at the time.
Wood pulp (what most of our current paper is made of) did not become the main source until roughly the mid-19th century.
And it took a while before people realized that wood-pulp had some serious drawbacks, making books and whatever else of paper products was made of it deteriorate rapidly. That's why much of the effort at preserving important books etc. in recent times has gone into countering this corrosive property of wood pulp. Maybe that's why my LoTR paperbacks are in such a sad state ...

Nowadays, literacy can also depend (to a degree) on Internet access. More generally speaking, access to a wide range of information. Which is why authoritarian / totalitarian regimes at all times have been vitally interested in restricting such access.

Not that such access is a guarantee for literacy in an advanced sense (or however one chooses to put it).
There is a German saying, I give the original and then my translation:
"Wer lesen kann ist klar im Vorteil."
Being literate gives you a clear advantage.

Erm ... a *potential* advantage. It's the old problem of logic, that your deductions may be impeccable - but if your assumptions ain't ...
garbage in, garbage out.

If your preferred reading is tabloid "newspapers" that breathlessly recount the (supposed) deeds and misdeeds of (mainly European) "aristocracy" and "nobility", or their US equivalents mainly derived from Hollywood - you're not really well-informed. The situation on TV and in the Internet seems to be far worse ...


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (May 13, 2021)

Let's try not to have this thread descend into politics, the way the other one did, please.


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## Olorgando (May 13, 2021)




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## Squint-eyed Southerner (May 13, 2021)

Olorgando said:


>


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## Olorgando (May 13, 2021)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Olorgando said:
> 
> 
> >


The statement eludes me ... are you proving my point? 😒


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (May 13, 2021)

There has to be a point? 

Call it "Primal Scream Therapy". 😁


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## Hisoka Morrow (May 30, 2021)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> _"wise but unlearned, writing no books but singing many songs, after the manner of the children of Men before the Dark Years."_
> 
> Which is not only indicating that they are mostly, if not completely, illiterate, but also contrasting them with the other Free Peoples.


I beg your pardon, it seemed that Rohan military combat personnel looked like so well-trained and well-disciplined, greatly opposite to "illiterate status", unless JRRT set them as " Gifted Cerebrum" with horribly high intelligence. Or could Aragorn's description was according to the Numenor Exile's standard of intelligence and education, comparably making these ME's natives not as well-educated as the Exiles such as Aragorn.



Alcuin said:


> There is no state “budget” regarding education or defense at this stage: as in the Dark and Middle Ages, the expenses of government are also the expenses of the royal or noble households, shared out among the common folk through taxes, tithes of food and goods, and common labor required of local people (such as the Hobbits’ requirement to maintain the bridge over the Brandywine).


I beg your pardon, then what's the concept of "Gondor wealth", described as "having luxuries as kids's toys". Alright, I truly never(or seldom maybe) saw JRRT's government discussing "budget" in concrete ways, such as no scenes mentioning the Council, or any King, discussing how to distribute finical expenditure with their political ministers,or maybe JRRT set the Free People always got abundant finical income(It's another matter of Lake-Town's Master's absconding during Smaug, implying Lake-Town got budget or not.)


Olorgando said:


> ...But maybe the system of scribes was more wide-spread than in Europe for about 1000 years between the fall of the Western Roman Empire and Gutenberg.





Olorgando said:


> Nowadays, literacy can also depend (to a degree) on Internet access. More generally speaking, access to a wide range of information. Which is why authoritarian / totalitarian regimes at all times have been vitally interested in restricting such access....





Alcuin said:


> Scribes were an honored profession in Egypt, Greece, and Rome, and laws and edicts were carved into stone or onto thin metal plates for public inspection so that all could read them. And even among the less civilized Celts and Germanic peoples, ogham and runic inscriptions were...


Oh yes, I almost forget that scribes would memorize massive data, after all manuscripts got much higher efficiency than all kinds of educational methods. We often judge information according to the other information we got in advance, yet manuscripts make us memorize much more data in comparison absorbing them via social media, making us to judge any new information possibly more precisely, making us much more intelligent, in other words, I think we all had such profound experience during out student age. Oh yeah, assuming ME had no print tech, then we might make sure that educated people were horribly intelligent, after all, we all know the concept "Intellectual phones, retard users" XDD
Thus...what do you guys think JRRT's Free People had no print due to having no biological traits of laziness, making manuscripts common folk activities among them instead of what's real educational table in our real world. Thus, let's imagine how Free People were horribly well-educated and intelligent Well, after all, we all know laziness was the biological traits for Evil Creatures such as orcs.
This can reflected by the examples of military hardware, the Free People's were all well-researched stuff, while the opposite, well...exp package XDD


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