# Doom and Fate



## Lhunithiliel (Jan 6, 2003)

the *DOOM* of Elves

and

the *FATE* of Men


How about having a nice discussion on this?
Well?
Shall we....... ?


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## Niniel (Jan 6, 2003)

I'd love to! It's complicated though. What exactly do you want to know? Why the fate of the Elves is called doom and that of Men fate? I'd say that the Elves are doomed from the start to dwindle and give way to Men, who will dominate Middle-Earth. After all, it was in the song of the Ainur that men would dominate. Whereas the fate of men is not exactly stated, at least I can't think of any quote that says that it is clear what will happen to men in the end. But maybe you mean something else?


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## goldmare (Jan 6, 2003)

Maybe "the fate of men" means the fact that they can't live forever, like the elves can. I heard somewhere that the elves call it their Doom that they CAN live so long, and that men call it THEIR Doom that they CAN'T live so long. Then again, this may not be what you were referring to. I guess it's open for interpretation.


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## Lhunithiliel (Jan 7, 2003)

"DOOM" and "FATE".
English is not my native language, yet I know these two words are synonims...
However, reading Tolkien, I get the impression that he mostly uses "doom" concerning Elves and "fate" concerning Men.
So, I got the idea that perhaps one should understand these two words in a different way! I started thinking that Tolkien used them in this way not by chance and that he meant to express some important idea in this way. What would it be?

Well, can we assume that he wished to have us understand that in his world, Men were the ONLY race who could in fact be able to control their life-deeds? And that whatever they do, the outcome depends on THEM, not on Gods' will.
While Elves are doomed right from their awakening to be bound to Arda and be a part of the constant circle of life of this world, Men seem freed of this. Perhaps that's why they did not care too much for ME as the Elves did. Perhaps they really felt somewhere deep in their souls and mind that the place they live in is in their dominion and it only depended on their will how they should live.

In short:
Men had fate, but were in power to change it and arrange their lives as they wished.
Elves were doomed. They lived a life pre-ordered by the God.

Well???
Your comments?


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## FoolOfATook (Jan 7, 2003)

I think it's significant that the Elves call death "The gift of Men" while Men call death "The doom of Men". I think to a certain extent Elves and Men envied one another- the story of Numenor is the story of Men seeking immoratality, while at the same time you have elves rejecting their immortality, effectively gaining the gift or doom of men. The grass is always greener on the other side.


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## Niniel (Jan 7, 2003)

It allc omes down to the question whether Elves and Men had a free will. I think they both do. What will happen to Elves and Men is pre-ordained in the Ainulindale, but not everything. E.g. is the fact that the Noldor left Valinor and the oath that Feanor and his sons swore all planned? I think not. They could have done something else if they wanted. Elves are doomed from the start to disappear and give over the dominion of Middle-Earth to Men, and I think you can call this the doom of the Elves. Maybe the only context in which Tolkien uses 'doom' for the Elves is here. But in other ways they also had a free will, just as Men.


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## Lhunithiliel (Jan 7, 2003)

Yeah! This is what I'm trying to figure out....  
Did Elves live their lives by the grand "scenario" of Illuvatar and Men did not?
But on the other hand.... All those prophecies of old... They seem to govern Men's lives pretty strongly! How often it is to read smth. like "...as prophecy said...." or "...as it is sung in the tales from ages forgotten...." (not exact quotes!).
So, this is what I'm trying to find out...
Is there a specific and particular difference in the use of the words "doom" and "fate" in Tolkien's writings?
And fi so, what was his intention in using the one or the other word?
Is my impression wrong that he uses the "doom"-word more often for Elves, to hint even in this smallest detail their pre-ordered lives.... 
Yet "fate" for Men- as the ONLY free-will race in ME? Fate they had, but could change it!
Elves could not change their doom. Whatever they did, they always have to face the inevitable end of their race, as it was so doomed....

"doom".... "fate"....
I shall have to check what my "Oxford" has to say about this....


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## Lantarion (Jan 8, 2003)

Everything that happens is according to the grand scheme of Ilúvatar!
But I have to disagree with your statement about "fate" and "doom" being synonimous to one another. 
If it is your "fate" to become a great warrior, for example, it is something that you accept and acknowledge more freely. A "fate" is almost always something positive.
If it is your "doom" to marry your sister and kill yourself (*cough*Túrin!*cough* ), then it is a negative thing that you curse and wish would not occur.

The Doom of Elves is something that is certain, that is definately going to happen; yet they know what is going to happen to them. They will go to the Halls of Mandos and live there until Dagor Dagorath and the Change of the World. 
The fate of Men is uncertain to all bar Eru himself, and yet is a gift, so it is somehting neutral or good.


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## Niniel (Jan 8, 2003)

But I think Tolkien often makes it clear that people (both Elves and Men) have a free choice, and that if they turn out to be ''bad' people, it's their own fault. So I can't believe that everything that happens is according to Ilúvatar's plan. What we really need is some quotes as evidence for on or other of the options. I can only think of one:


> Here ends the Silmarillion. If it has passed from the high and the beautiful to darknees and ruin, that was of old the fate of Arda Marred; and if any change shall come ad the Marring be amended, Manwe and Varda may know; but they have not revealed it, and it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos.


This would suggest that all the bad things that happened to Arda were 'fate'; but it's not clear whether it was bound to happen because it was in the Ainulindale, or because it was a logical consequence of the fact that Morgoth was there and had brought evil into the world. Also it suggests that Manwe, Varda and Mandos know what will happen, but again it's not clear whether they know it because they caused it (as being gods) or that they just know it because they are all-knowing and they know that certain people will make it happen by their own choice.
Phew, this is getting quite complicated...


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## Lhunithiliel (Jan 8, 2003)

From "Qxford dictionary"

_DOOM_: noun; death or destruction; any terrible event that you cannot avoid

_FATE_: noun; 1/ the things, especially bad things, that will happen or have happened to sbd. 2/ the power that is believed to control everything that happens and that cannot be stopped or changed.

Now it seems that "fate" is a stronger power!


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## goldmare (Jan 8, 2003)

The thing is, if people have free will, doesn't that mean they can partly choose their own fate? Or is free will not really free? I mean, if you are destined to do something or become someone in particular, and there is no getting out of it, then you don't really have a choice, do you? Or is there some kind of mutual balance between fate and free will, that governs Arda? And is there a difference between destiny and fate? Oh dear, I'm getting into a philosophical discussion that could go on for years. I'll just stop now.


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## Lhunithiliel (Jan 9, 2003)

Exactly, goldmare!
This is what I'm trying to understand.....Or at least understand what Tolkien's understanding was on the matter!

Becuase, he says Men were created with the freedom to chose their life paths and deeds.... Then, neither doom, nor fate governs them, but what they themselves do!

Some may say....This is only an imaginary world - Tolkien's... But I wouldn't agree! I feel there are some UNIVERSAL truths of OUR world revealed in his invented world....
So, if he gave the race of Men the interpretation we know of, then he must have had a good reason for it! I feel as if he had grasped a very important significance of Men and one should dig in and find it out......and perhaps then one should understand better some things around .... in "real" life.

So, perhaps the more exact question would be.....
Did Tolkien mean Men to be NOT doomed and in control over their fate?
OR.....
Just the other way around...... Men have a particular purpose set by someone, somewhere and somehow ..... and whatever Men do, it is becuase of this set order.... (the prophecies?!!!)


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## Niniel (Jan 9, 2003)

My English dictionary says for 'doom' also: *judgement* 
This is very important, because it means that doom is especially something that is laid upon you by the judgement of another. This other can of course be a god/gods, so in that sense it could mean that doom is an unavoidable punishment, so it is always something bad. This would be the case with the 'doom of the Noldor', which is a punishment for the Noldor's behaviour, spoken by Mandos.
I think in general Tolkiens uses doom for things that are bad and are the result of a decision by the Valar to punish someone for his bad deeds, or by Morgoth (in the case of Húrin). Or if someone just feels he is punished, even though it might not be so (as in the 'doom of Men', which is how Men called death, whereas the Elves called death a gift to Men). 
To find a better answer we could do 3 things:
-analyse the Ainulindale to see what is actually prophesied in it, and what isn't. I think many things that happened are not prophesied, so there is free will for Elves and Men.
-analyse all Tolkien's work, espcially the Sil, to see where he used 'doom' and where he uses 'fate'.
-ask someone who has read the HOME and the Letters if Tolkien himself has answered it somewhere.
I have no time for lengthy analysis, so maybe someone else has???


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## goldmare (Jan 12, 2003)

Maybe this will shed some light on something- just what, I'm not sure. This quote is from "Of the Beginning of Days," from the Silmarillion.

"For it is said that after the departure of the Valar there was silence, and for an age Iluvatar sat alone in thought. Then he spoke and said: "Behold I love the Earth, which shall be a mansion for the Quendi(elves) and the Atani(men)! But the Quendi shall be the fairest of all earthly creatures, and they shall have and shall conceive and bring forth more beauty than all my Children; and they shall have the greater bliss in this world. But to the Atani I will give a new gift." Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as FATE to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest.

But Iluvatar knew that Men, being set amid the turmoils of the powers of the world, would stray often, and would not use their gifts in harmony; and he said: "These too in their time shall find that all they do rebounds at the end only to the glory of my work"...

It is one with this gift of freedom that the children of Men dwell only a short space in the world alive, and are not bound to it, and depart soon wither the Elves know not... Death is their FATE, the gift of Iluvatar, which as time wears even the Powers shall envy."


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## Fading Evenstar (Jan 12, 2003)

This is confusing me  

OK. I don't think that doom and fate are synonyms... well actually they could be if fate was used in the negative sense... but fate is more generalized than doom. Doom is immediately something bad... yet fate can be good or bad. For Elves it is a doom, as their people are fading and when they should be living forever, they're not... and then there's the men who's fate is not to live forever, but to meet their doom which is part of their fate...

OK, I'm just confusing myself. I don't think what I just said makes much sense. I'll just read your posts


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## Harry_Potter (Jan 13, 2003)

the elves are doomed due to dubious leadership perhaps?


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## goldmare (Jan 13, 2003)

Ok, Harry_Potter, I do not object to your screen name (I happen to love the HP books myself), but change your signature, or you will not find very many friends here.


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## faila (Jan 14, 2003)

If something is preknown it is predetermined right?
For instance if a all knowing being excists then he knows everything that will happen theirfore all is predetermined.

As many people know tolkiens writtings can reflect his own life. Did tolkien as a christian believe in a utter freewill in all aspect or did he believe that he was "predestined"? I am not catholic so I do not have any idea as to what the catholics would say about this matter. This though may not have anything to do with it, im just saying that his own thoughts about this world may of affected his writings.


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## Lhunithiliel (Jan 14, 2003)

Please, let me paraphrase your words a little, becuase I think that what is predetermined is preknown 

Besides, I think religion does not have much to do with the universal truths. I see religion (Catholic, or Orthodox, or whichever) just as another attempt to explain those truths....and I'm not sure they had much success in it .....except, perhaps, the Budhism.... I guess.

Anyway, analysing Tolkien, I personally get the impression that he wanted very, very much to "cry out loud" to the race of Men telling them that we are here for a purpose and we should look deeper to find it.

Call it a fate, for _fate_ I see as something more positive than negative.
While _doom _ definitely brings the "air" of something inevitably bad that will come for sure.

_Fate_ seems controllable, while _doom_ - not.

Now, if to return to the initial question, perhaps Elves are more often associated with the word _doom_ becuase for Men the time for relying on somebody else has finished. Elves have gone! For good!

And maybe this was Tolkien's way to remind People that they shall have to understand that their _fate[/] and the fate of the world they live in depends entirely on their will, their deeds....

Mhm.... Too much philosophy... Sorry! _


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## Niniel (Jan 14, 2003)

I don't think that anything that is preknown is predetermined. Many gods don't exist in the normal human time-frame, that is, for them eternity and one moment are the same. Do in the same moment they can see everything that will happen, but not necessarily because they are the cause of it, but because they can see that it will happen as a result of men's actions. I can't really explain this but I hope you see what I mean.


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## FoolOfATook (Jan 14, 2003)

> the elves are doomed due to dubious leadership perhaps?



Say what? Not to completely derail the thread, but I'm really unsure about what you mean here. Gil-Galad, Galadriel, Elrond, Cirdan- these are dubious leaders? The only Elvish leader I can think of whom I don't flat out admire is Thranduil, and yet he was able to perservere in Mirkwood despite the continuous looming evil of Dol Guldur. Feanor had his faults, but dubious leadership? Please explain what you mean. (I am legitimately interested in your comment, so perhaps you could start a thread about it in The Hall Of Fire, so that it doesn't completely lead this thread into the dark realm of Off-Topic.)


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## faila (Jan 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Niniel _
> *I don't think that anything that is preknown is predetermined. Many gods don't exist in the normal human time-frame, that is, for them eternity and one moment are the same. Do in the same moment they can see everything that will happen, but not necessarily because they are the cause of it, but because they can see that it will happen as a result of men's actions. I can't really explain this but I hope you see what I mean. *


 Letsmake this in a real world instance for a second.

God knew i was going to post this, if he forenew it than their is no way for me to stop it theirfore it was predetermined theirfore if theirs foreknowledge their is predetermination.


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## goldmare (Jan 14, 2003)

Let me try to explain what Niniel was trying to say. Someone once it explained it to me this way, and I'll use the God of Christianity for example because I am a Christian.

Imagine a line. To God, human time is a line, kinda one-dimensional because we are forever going in one direction and we can't stop time or step away from it. God exists in the space around this line, so He can see both the beginning, the end, and all that lies between. Even though certain events are in the past for us and others are in our future, it is neither for Him because to Him, it is the present. He knows what future events are going to happen because it has already happened or is happening, from His point of view. The events may be seen by us as preknown, but that is because we are only at one point on this line. So you see, things would not be predestined, because the line has already been constructed and the choices already made by each person. God is simply able to examine the result of these choices.

I have tried to explain it the best I can, but if you're confused, just ask away.


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## Niniel (Jan 15, 2003)

Thank you Goldmare! That was exactly what I wanted to explain, but I didn't know how. This makes my point a lot clearer. BTW, I think we are drifting away from the subject a little bit, since the question was how Tolkien used fate and doom.


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## Lhunithiliel (Jan 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by goldmare _
> * Imagine a line. To God, human time is a line, kinda one-dimensional because we are forever going in one direction and we can't stop time or step away from it. God exists in the space around this line, so He can see both the beginning, the end, and all that lies between. Even though certain events are in the past for us and others are in our future, it is neither for Him because to Him, it is the present. He knows what future events are going to happen because it has already happened or is happening, from His point of view. The events may be seen by us as preknown, but that is because we are only at one point on this line. So you see, things would not be predestined, because the line has already been constructed and the choices already made by each person. God is simply able to examine the result of these choices.*


Boy! Don't I like philosophy! 

But, let me correct you a bit. What you were saying , as quoted above, can be completely true *IF* and *ONLY IF* you mean the existance, hence the position of the *phisical body* of a human in a particular moment on the time-line.

B U T...

The interesting about MAN and the ONLY thing that makes US different from animals is *OUR MIND* and one should take into consideration that our mind *CAN GET AWAY FROM THE TIME-LINE* and it actually does it all the time.

B E C A U S E

We have a sense of past, present and future, PRECISELY thanks of our only important part - our mind, which IS perfectly ABLE to "exist" in any point/section of the time line.
That's why we can remember, we perceive what is going on at present and dream or foresee future events.

Now, all this could be a subject to a very long discussion (which I wouldn't mind  ) but I only wished to show that in this specific example brought up here before, we - MEN are equal to God from the point of view of the perception of past, present and future.

And finally, I'd say, that if I am to draw a conclusion, I can not accept this theory (Niniel's - Sorry!  ) as suitable to explain why Elves feel doomed and Men consider their fate (which is definitely not always bad)!

Because, I am thinking like this: If there are prophecies, it means that things are predetermined, hence - preknown. 
So, observing that everybody - Elves and Men, and even Gods and other spirits (half-gods  ) are quite desturbed by those prophecies, then WHO, for God's sake, has spoken them?! Because he must be the ONLY possible one who would know it all ..... because he must be the one who has predetermined everything..... And this leads to Eru, doesn't it?

Or.....?


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## faila (Jan 15, 2003)

I think Ilúvatar predestined all things to happen.

Any way i think God (of the christians for I am one, if you could tell by the sig) Binds himself to our time. NO im not limiting GOd im saying that God purposfully knows whats going to happen, and everything but he sees know as know and past as past and future as future.

So compare Ilúvatar to God, if tolkien believed in the calvinistic theory of Predestination (which their is scriptural evidence for) then he may of set Eru to an extent to see Predestined the world.

Any way even your about the line makes me think that its still going to happen, it is Predestined to happen, for it can not be changed.


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## goldmare (Jan 15, 2003)

Boy, this is a real head-scratcher! I'm getting confused here, but let me try to answer one question at a time.

Lhunithiliel, I understand what you mean but I think our perception and God's perception of time are more than a little different. Yes, our minds can exist (although I'm not quite sure if that's the right word) in another time, hence, as you say, we can remember stuff and dream the future. But our bodies cannot, and lets face it, most of the time our minds are in the present, focused on the now. And I think I can be safe in saying that our minds can be in only one time at a time(no pun intended). But to God, everything that happens is in the present to Him. The future and the past, to us, are His present. Time does not rule Him as it does us, and because He is outside of time He can see everything that we are going to do as well as everything that we did. I know its hard to imagine a place that has no time, but that is the state in which God lives.

And Faila, let me try to explain it again, although it was confusing enough the first time and I'm not sure I'll say it much better this time. To God, we have already made the choices of the future, because He has been able to examine our future as he sees it. Our decisions haven't been decided by Him (except in the fact that He gave us certain personalities, maybe). It's not as if we can see what choices we're going to make and their consequences, or we'd all go back and make different decisions if we could; no, we're just making these choices as they come to us, blindly, not able to see what the future holds. He may already know what decisions we're going to make, but this doesn't mean that He's forcing us to make a certain decision. We would have made these decisions anyway, because we don't know the future. He is just able to see this before we do.


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## faila (Jan 20, 2003)

But still if he forknows it than it is going to happen thier is no way to change what will happen.

I hold this view on middle earth as well.


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## goldmare (Jan 20, 2003)

The only reason He foreknows a certain thing is because to Him we have already decided that thing. We may not know it, but that is the decision we will make in the future and would have made because we don't know about it beforehand. We don't know what decision we will make until we come to it, but in God's perspective, He has already seen us make that decision and just because He knows that ahead of our time doesn't mean that we would have made a different decision or will make one. You could say that He's just a little bit ahead of us on the time line, and that's why He knows what we will do, not because He has predestined it.

But your statement that he knows that it is going to happen and so there's no way for us to stop it doesn't really make sense, because WE don't know what the future holds and therefore we wouldn't know enough to stop it.


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## Lhunithiliel (Jan 31, 2003)

I still have what to say  
But it will be later tonight.

This discussion is NOT over!

It's so interesting to let it stop . Right?


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## Lhunithiliel (Feb 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by goldmare _
> *Boy, this is a real head-scratcher!*


*
Yes  I agree! But it makes it more exciting, doesn't it!




Lhunithiliel, I understand what you mean but I think our perception and God's perception of time are more than a little different. Yes, our minds can exist (although I'm not quite sure if that's the right word) in another time, hence, as you say, we can remember stuff and dream the future. But our bodies cannot,

Click to expand...

Now, if we are to discuss matters of the spirit and mind we shall have to definitely forget about any bodies. The body is only a shell, isn't it. It passes away and is destroyed and it is not of much importance.



...most of the time our minds are in the present, focused on the now. And I think I can be safe in saying that our minds can be in only one time at a time(no pun intended).

Click to expand...

I can't say how much more or less our minds are focused on a particular part of the "time-line". I wouldn't be sure to say that it's more the present than the past or the future. Besides, it is a common state of the mind to attend a present activity and at the same time "be" in the past (=memories) or in the future (=planning, predicting, guessing, dreaming...)



But to God, everything that happens is in the present to Him. The future and the past, to us, are His present. Time does not rule Him as it does us, and because He is outside of time He can see everything that we are going to do as well as everything that we did. I know its hard to imagine a place that has no time, but that is the state in which God lives.

Click to expand...

I doubt that there might be a place whith no time running. Time is one of the existing universal dimensions (together with the normally known 3 dimensions for describing a place). It however is very possible that time might run differently in different environments. Therefore the environment of God must be very much different than ours. But it is not an unusual thing....EVEN in our environment! Think about a tree. It is a living being just as we are. However, time might seem different from a tree's point of view - different from ours, of course. 
The same concerns the Elves and Men - they lived in the same environment and yet they had a different understanding of time.




To God, we have already made the choices of the future, because He has been able to examine our future as he sees it. Our decisions haven't been decided by Him (except in the fact that He gave us certain personalities, maybe).

Click to expand...

With this I can agree.



It's not as if we can see what choices we're going to make and their consequences, or we'd all go back and make different decisions if we could; no, we're just making these choices as they come to us, blindly, not able to see what the future holds.

Click to expand...

With this I DEFINITELY CAN'T agree!!!!! A person acts, acted and will act ALWAYS on the grounds of her/his individuality (how individuality is formed is quite a large subject we could also speak of  ). I mean that "blind" behaviour is not possible. One always does things according to some pricpiples s/he has. One has to only study her/him-self and if succeeds in analysing her/his own self, s/he will be able to understand every single move s/he has made, is making and will make. The other day I heard a very wise thing: "Go to the mirror and look in it! There you will see your past, your present and your future IF you know HOW to look upon the thing in the mirror" Isn't it a great thought!!!!!*


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## goldmare (Feb 2, 2003)

Oh. Sorry, I didn't mean to present it quite like that. I agree completely with you in what you just said. What I was trying to illustrate in that quote is that we can't see all of the decisions we might have to make, nor what the consequences of those decisions might be. You're right, though; I guess I shouldn't have put it quite like that.


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## Lhunithiliel (Feb 3, 2003)

Hey, why..... The discussion is good and it's good to continue it! 
Be free to post the way you feel it and we'll discuss it and then I post and then others (hopefully) .....

But we have been carried away a little. Away from the main topic, I mean. 
What do you think? Our contemplations - how can they refer to elves' doom and men's fate?

And finally, whatever has been said here so far,it is still not clear whether Tolkien had something different in mind when using those combinations of words.


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## Eriol (Feb 3, 2003)

*Late comer...*

Oh, I thrive on this sort of thread... it is a pity it took me so long to find it. I will comment on some of the subjects raised so far:

Fate/Doom (the meaning of the words): You seem to think that fate is more positive than doom. In myth, fate is something completely beyond the control of any power (including the gods!). Doom, on the other hand, is usually _pronounced_ by some power. In our favorite tales, an example would be Túrin, whose doom (really, curse) was set by Morgoth, because of Húrin's defiance. The main difference between doom and fate regarding our present thread would be that the Doom of Elves was pronounced by the only Irresistible Power, Eru Ilúvatar, and that he refrained from pronouncing the Doom of Men (although he is aware of it, being omnisicient). The difference is one of announcement, not of kind. Ilúvatar, of course, knows the fate of everything. Which leads us to...

Predestination : I agree with Goldmare's exposition regarding the Christian God (and I think the Christian God _is_ Eru, but we have a gargantuan thread on the LotR forum about it...). And this means I don't think that God's foreknowledge is binding on our free will. I will expand on this... after my lunch  . It is the most interesting part of the discussion for me.

The Doom of Elves: We have to remember that this story is told from the viewpoint of the Elves, and not from an omniscient narrator. Tolkien had a strong "author's pride" about this, as can be seen from his Letters -- the fact that this is a myth/legendarium that is not anthropocentric. Therefore, many details about Men are left vague -- the First Fall is an example. No wonder the final fate of Men is unknown. Also, the Elves got their info from the Valar, who also had (from the beginning) little knowledge about men. Ilúvatar didn't show much of his master plan regarding men to the Valar, with the possible exception of Manwë and Mandos. But even if He did reveal something to them, they would not blabber about it. So that even in the First Age the Elves had a clear picture of their subsequent history (which does not mean they lacked free will!! This regards only 'big scale history', not individual destiny), but little clue about Men. 

And now for lunch.


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## Eriol (Feb 3, 2003)

*A loooong post...*

Ok, having refreshed myself I can tackle the difficult topic of predestination... if you feel that this is off-topic, I'm sorry, let me know. I will here think about predestination as it happens on the real world, though I have reason to believe (see the thread 'Finding God in the LotR') that Eru and God are the same in Tolkien's mind, so the discussion is also applicable to Middle Earth. These seem to be the hypotheses voluntereed so far:

1) Full predestination -- nothing we can do will change what is destined for us, since it is engraven in God's intellect from the beginning of time. This view implies the Calvinist conclusion that the damned and the blessed are separated from the start, and nothing we do can change that. Actually, only God's intervention can change it. I believe faila believes in that.

2) No predestination -- Even if God knows what we will do, his knowledge is not binding at all on our free will, since it happens from 'outside' time. So that God 'sees' the future as we see the past, as something unchangeable, but what will build the future (just as what has built the past) is our free choices, unfettered by God's knowledge. This means that the blessed will be blessed because of their good works (refusal of sin, embracing of God), aided by God's Providence, but originating from their free will nonetheless. And the same applies to the damned. Goldmare apparently believes in that.

Please inform me if I have misrepresented any of your viewpoints. As I said before, I am more inclined to Goldmare's side, but the opinion as I have stated it is not precisely like mine. This is because Church doctrine (remember, I think Tolkien's Eru is fully compatible with Catholic doctrine. Also, I am a Catholic myself) refuses the theory that man can raise himself up to Blessedness without God's intervention -- grace. Good works without grace are not enough. This is an effect of the Fall. 

So this is my third hypothesis (which I think is very much like the Catholic Church explanation of predestination):

There is Pre-destination, prior destination. We must keep in mind two facts: 1) God loves all men. In as much as He loves everyone, He wants everybody to be saved. But this word, 'wants', while an expression of God's will, describe his prior position, his 'default position', so to speak. After one sins, God's Justice (and keep in mind that His Justice and His Love are one and the same -- God is simplicity itself, He can not be divided into concepts) would deny salvation. And we all sinned in Adam. So as it stood before Christ, we were denied salvation, even though we were pre-destined to be saved. I will soon comment on the word pre-destination itself, and it's difference from simple destination. But let us continue. Christ's sacrifice, in an Act of Mercy, saved all. This is not offensive to God's Justice, since the creditor can forgive any or all of his debts -- it is the debtor who is bound to Justice, not the creditor. The second fact (2) is God's Providence, the government of the Universe. While it was ridiculed by Voltaire's Dr. Pangloss, the Christian position (and I do not keep myself to Catholicism here, I think all Christians would agree) is that Providence makes this the best of all possible worlds. That means, even the Evil in this world, though not created by God, can, by his Providence, result in Good. God deemed Ethical Freedom a greater good than Bliss, and Adam's fall was a result of that. So everything that followed, including the horrors of the last century, is laboring for the greater good of the Creation. 

Pre-destination, prior destination, then, is in God, not in man. He pre-destined the human race to be His Children, to glory in his Presence, but we fell. After this episode, even while our destination (the result of our own free acts) had changed, God was saving us by Christ, so that his pre-destination prevailed over our mistakes. And through God's Providence, the government of the Universe, our acts and good works are heard and God arranges them to insure the greater good. So that we may, by prayer and works, change the fate of others, and perhaps even ourselves. 

Bottomline: we are all potentially saved. The only thing that is lacking is for us to acknowledge Christ as Our Savior, and it is done. In that sense, we are predestined, and nothing we can do will move us further to the goal, the debt is already paid. BUT, our acts and prayers have an effect on whether ourselves (and others, most especially others) acknowledge God's Gift and are therefore effectively saved. 

Was that too confusing? What do you think about it? I'd like to hear your input if I have not bored you to death... and if you feel this thread is a proper vehicle.


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## Walter (Feb 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lhunithiliel _
> the *DOOM* of Elves
> 
> and
> ...


 Nay, not so! 

Just in case my above statement doesn't fully satisfy everyone, let me try to explain it - a little - better:

I don't think this can be generalized in a way that we could say Tolkien used "doom" mainly for the "final fate" of Elves whereas he used "fate" for that of Men.

In the - IMO - most revealing Essay about the fate of Elves and Men, the "Athrabeth"*, Tolkien uses both terms for Eldar and Edain. I fail to see a "pattern" which would justify the association of "doom" with the Elves and "fate" with men. 

Regarding the "predestination" vs. "free will" issue, in the context of the "final fate" of Elves and Men, said Essay - to me - represents some form of a struggle: Tolkien's (catholic) beliefs vs. Tolkien's educated intellect. Eternal life of body and soul, harmony of body and soul, mortal body and immortal soul, re-incarnation; Tolkien presents it all in this "debate" and yet, where the logic fails he has to call upon _estel_ - the "trust" in Eru as the final word...

----
*incl. the Notes and together with "Laws and Customs..."


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## goldmare (Feb 4, 2003)

Well, Eriol, there's one difference between my view and how you described it, and it mostly stems from the differences in our faiths. I am not a Catholic, but I am a Christian, and I don't believe that our good works determine our fate. They may determine what certain aspects of our lives are going to be, but I do not believe they affect our final destination. The only thing that affects that is our decision whether or not to accept Jesus' gift of salvation.

I just wanted to clear that up. By the way, I have enjoyed your input and I hope you and others continue to address this issue. It's been very interesting!


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## Lhunithiliel (Feb 5, 2003)

I have too enjoyed the opinions and I'm glad I have the opportunity of talking to and learning from such high-intelligent people!

goldmare, eriol...you speak of God in such a way as if you know him extremely well. You comment on his decisions, his views, his visions and his expectations concerning mankind... You comment on his abilities to control or not Men's destinies....

I, being almost ignorant in these matters, wonder how you know all about him? 

Because, I see Tolkien's Illuvatar as a character representin the superior god of ANY religion known to men in our " real" world, not only the Christian one. I cannot claim much knowledge in religios matters, but from what I have read here and there, all the superior gods in any religion have similar capabilities and powers, which I then see as if "projected" onto the character of Eru.
Therefore, if I could understand better what makes YOU know your god so well, perhaps I would be able to understand the issue of _doom and fate_, pre-determined and controlled by Illuvatar in Tolkien's world....
*****
Professor Walter, 
As I had said it at the beginning of this thread, I only got the _impression_ of Tolkein using those combinations... I am very far from knowing Tolkien well. I still have to read a lot and learn a lot... 
I just want to figure those things out.
***
The thing is that I personally, think a lot of our destiny/fate/doom in the real world - does it exist?

Now, based on my belief that art, any art, reveals men's mind and men's understanding of the surrounding world, I think Tolkien actually said something very important by giving the story of the difference between the fate/doom/destiny of Men and Elves.
I guess, that IF I understand his point of view, this will help me find the answer of my question....

So, tell me what you think on these things....
What does your religion say?

"Your" religion..... I shouldn't say so....I,m Christian myself, although Orthodox....but I have been raised in a society and in years when religion was prohibited, therefore I don't have much understanding....

Besides, I have a rather.......let's say "unconventional" attitude towards the story of Christ... But this is another story...


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## Walter (Feb 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lhunithiliel _
> *****
> Professor Walter,
> As I had said it at the beginning of this thread, I only got the _impression_ of Tolkein using those combinations... I am very far from knowing Tolkien well. I still have to read a lot and learn a lot...
> ...


Professor????   

If you're interested in Tolkien's ideas about that you really should read - or better study - the "Athrabeth..."

And if you really want an answer to "the great question of life": well, the answer - as many might already know - is "*42*".... just .... what exactly "the great question of life" is will take me a little longer to figure out


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## Eriol (Feb 5, 2003)

Posted by Goldmare:


> They may determine what certain aspects of our lives are going to be, but I do not believe they affect our final destination. The only thing that affects that is our decision whether or not to accept Jesus' gift of salvation.



This is what I said on the subject:



> Bottomline: we are all potentially saved. The only thing that is lacking is for us to acknowledge Christ as Our Savior, and it is done. In that sense, we are predestined, and nothing we can do will move us further to the goal, the debt is already paid. BUT, our acts and prayers have an effect on whether ourselves (and others, most especially others) acknowledge God's Gift and are therefore effectively saved.



Not so different, I think... The last sentence could be the point of disagreement, and if so I am at fault. I could express it in this way: good works are... well, good! And they therefore please God (who is Goodness). So they help us and our neighbors to see God and, seeing Him, acknowledge Jesus. Would you agree with that?

Lhun, you are surely right, Tolkien's myth can give us some profound insights about life and death. I find his take on the fate of the Children of Ilúvatar quite enligthening. But first I must address this:



> goldmare, eriol...you speak of God in such a way as if you know him extremely well. You comment on his decisions, his views, his visions and his expectations concerning mankind... You comment on his abilities to control or not Men's destinies...



I don't like to litter a thread with the "IMO's", and so I am again at fault. Of course I am not God's personal counsellor  . Thinking about the Absolute (even before I became a Christian) is intoxicating, though. 

By the way, I think the question:



> .... what exactly "the great question of life" is



is the great question of life  

Most of the ideas I wrote are in my (humble) opinion true, as far as my mind can see it, but they are nothing more than an opinion. These things are not liable to be rationally proven, but I don't think this is such a defect. Most things are not, this is the pitfall in which the Cynics fell, to think that only what is liable to be rationally proven is correct. We could discuss the roots of our intellect and how does it 'see' truth, but it would be (way) off-topic, wouldn't it? I'm not sure... After all the relationship between myth and truth is one of the main themes of Tolkien's works.

You asked me how I know 'so much' about God. I knew a little by thinking, by philosophy. I found even this little astounding (as I said, it is intoxicating). But the 'bulk', of course, is faith. I think my own 'religious trajectory' was unusual in that I was led from thinking to faith, and most people I know are led from faith to thinking about it. I can say that my faith is grounded in my thinking... Very complicated, and I'd love to tell you more about it if you want. I'd like to know about your 'unconventional' attitude as well. I still don't know 'all' about Him, as you said, but I am learning... but the full answers will have to wait until the End.

After talking about God, religion, the mind, etc., I can turn to Elves and Men... I always found it intriguing that Tolkien wrote a myth in which death would be natural for men. This is (in my opinion!) his main departure from Catholic theology, which believes that 'the wages of sin is death', i.e. death is not natural to men but was self-inflicted by his sinning. But the idea that 'Men are guests', that they are not of this world, is wide-reaching. The implication, I think, is that somewhere else men are native. 

Your remarks about Art are also interesting in that in some letters Tolkien said that the Elves are in his myths to represent Art... pure Art, unfettered by the desire for power and human limitations. Now, they fell short of this description now and then... but I still think it interesting. As I said above, I don't think Tolkien pictured the Elves without (or with a lessened) free will as regards the shaping of their fate. They simply had more info and less of a 'rebellious' spirit, and this could be explained by their being 'natives' in Arda, part of the World, bound to it. They find 'happiness' (and the definition of 'happiness' is very dependent on your idea of God!) easily in Arda, at first, but they are 'fading' with the world, as they are not truly immortal (but only live as long as the world lives). One very important aspect of these speculations is that Arda, the World (really, the created Universe), is not all there is. Elves are bound to it, and age (weary) at the same rate. Men are not, so they weary quickly. But from the viewpoint of Man, the great question (with due respect for Walter) regards their ultimate cause, why are they here? What is Eru's plan? This he has not revealed, and so Men are said to be 'freer', in as much as the plan for the Elves is explicit -- to live in Valinor until the end of the world, and share the delight of Arda with the Powers. (Even so they can refuse it and 'fade' in Middle Earth, the 'fairies' of later stories were in Tolkien's mind faded Elves). But as they are both Children of Ilúvatar, He has some plan for Men as well. It is only unknown to them (and therefore to us...). 

I wrote too much. I'd like to hear from you all.


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## Lhunithiliel (Feb 5, 2003)

***Lhun withdraws to think...
To think about God, about fate, about faith, about how splendid the human mind can be, about why does it not always "work" in favour of this world the bodies live in, about whether the Elves could be the representation of this mind as Tolkien had seen it ......or whether they are his vision of Man's good will and creative imagination.....
AND
about what exactly "the great question of life" is ....

Perhaps I'll take the first ship to the "restaurant at the end of the universe" and will talk to that cow there....Perhaps she knows the answer??????!!!!!!  ********

But I'll be back....when something "flashes" crystal clear.


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## Walter (Feb 5, 2003)

The Dilemma which Tolkien addresses so aptly is this:

The "illusion" - or maybe the hope or wishful thinking or the postulate - is the "eternal harmony" of _hröa_ and _fëa_ (≈body and soul).

Men's souls are not confined to Arda (the Universe), they could be eternal, but their bodies perish after a short while. Even if we assume the latter would be because of the "fall" there remains the problem that an "earthly" body can hardly claim "eternal" life. So Menkind clearly fails to fulfil this "harmony"

The Eldar have it for the time Arda (the Universe) lasts, which may appear long, but compared to eternity it is still only a short timespan. And they - mostly - believe that for them there is nothing beyond that, hence they fail to fulfil the "harmony" forever.

So, Men have only "part of the harmony" but it is "eternal" (in case of the soul) and Elves have the "harmony" but it is not "eternal".

Other "logical discrepancies" on this issue are: the possibility of re-incarnation for the Elves, and the bond between body and soul in a way where the _fëa_ can "uplift" the _hröa_.

I think that the Athrabeth in many ways expresses the dissensus between Tolkien the Philologist (or maybe the Philosopher) and Tolkien the Catholic.

----
Lhun, yes maybe the cow, the mice clearly not... 

----
Eriol, which "later stories" are you referring to regarding the faded elves?


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## Eriol (Feb 5, 2003)

This relationship between Elves and latter 'Faeries' was an impression I got from my first reading of the Letters, some 3 years ago. I went there to delve for quotes that supported it, and only went so far as Letter 160. There we go:

Letter 131:



> ... But to those creatures which in English I call misleadingly Elves*
> 
> *FOOTNOTE: Intending the word to be understood in its ancient meanings, which continued as late as Spenser -- a murrain on Will Shakespeare and his damned cobwebs.



He furthers this point on Letter 151:



> ... Also I now deeply regret having used Elves, though this is a word in ancestry and original meaning suitable enough. But the disastrous debasement of this word, in which Shakespeare played an unforgivable part, has really overloaded it with regrettable tones, which are too much to overcome.



And again in Letter 151:



> Only the Eldar (or High-Elves) could sail thither, forsaking time and mortality, but never returning...



Which appears to imply that the lesser Elves remained on Middle-Earth (Europe). This becomes explicit in Letter 154:



> ...But the promise made to the Eldar (the High Elves -- not to other varieties, they had long before made their irrevocable choice, preferring Middle-Earth to paradise) (...) :That they should always be able to leave Middle-Earth, if they wished, and pass over the Sea to the True West, by the Straight Road, and so come to Eressëa -- but so pass out of time and history, never to return.



Up to then my assertion seemed on firm ground. But then I found this counter quote in Letter 144:



> But I suppose that the _Quendi_ are in fact in these histories very little akin to the Elves and Faeries of Europe...



In my mind this is relating to Shakespeare's Elves, but I see room for doubt. So the answer to Walter's question:



> Eriol, which "later stories" are you referring to regarding the faded elves?



would be: stories about Europe's Elves before the 'debasement of the word inflicted in large part by Shakespeare'. I don't know much about Nordic mythology and can't add anything else.

Regarding the question of the thread, some other quotes from the Letters for your pleasure:

Letter 131:

I think you will like this quote Lhun... 



> Anyway all this stuff* is mainly concerned with Fall, Mortality, and the Machine. With Fall inevitably, and it occurs in several modes. With Mortality, especially as it affects art and the creative (or as I should say, sub-creative) desire which seems to have no biological function, and to be apart from the satisfactions of ordinary biological life with which, in our world, it is indeed usually at strife.
> 
> *It is, I suppose, funndamentally connected with the problem of the relation of Art (and Sub-creation) and Primary Reality.



still Letter 131:



> The doom of Elves is to be immortal, to love the beauty of the world, to bring it to full flower with their gifts of delicacy and perfection, to last while it lasts, never leaving it even when 'slain', but returning -- and yet, when the Followers come, to teach them, and make way for them, to 'fade' as the Followers grow and absorb the life from which both proceed. The Doom (or Gift) of Men is mortality, freedom from the circles of the world. Since the point of view of the whole cycle is Elvish, mortality is not explained mythically: it is a mystery of God of which no more is known than that 'what God has purposed for Men is hidden': a grief and an envy to the immortal Elves.



I call your attention to the different spellings of the word 'doom', as well as to the use of the word 'God' (not 'Eru').

Letter 153:



> Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the _Eruhíni_ (in whose conception and creation the Valar had no part at all) it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case: the cases of Lúthien (and Túor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God. The entering into Men of the Elven-strain is indeed represented as part of a Divine Plan for the ennoblement of the Human Race, from the beginning destined to replace the Elves.



I have been re-reading the Letters for the last few days, and will keep you informed if I find anything else of interest. 

(all the quotes are from the 1981 edition)


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## Walter (Feb 6, 2003)

Thanks, Eriol, it seems I just misread your former statement _"the 'fairies' of later stories were in Tolkien's mind faded Elves"_ because I was assuming you meant "Tolkien's later stories" and there later (regarding to the Athrabeth) would mean post 1960, where I could only think of "Smith..." (but that doesn't seem to really fit, IMO) and the essay "On Fairy Stories" (which can hardly be considered a "story").

When Tolkien "invented" his Elves he certainly borrowed from the early Celtic-, but mainly from the Nordic-mythology. I think the Poetic Edda to be the oldest source for elves. But certainly Tolkien gave them a new "identity" with much more depth and character and also a distinct "history".

Tolkien's idea of "fairies" as "faded Elves" seems to be a rather early one (hence I was puzzled by your _"later stories"_), since Christopher in his comments to "The Cottage of Lost Plays" says:


> Yet it is to be observed that in early notes Elves and Men are said to have been 'of a size' in former days, and the smallness (and filminess and transparency) of the 'fairies' is an aspect of their 'fading', and directly related to the domination of Men in the Great Lands.


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## Niniel (Feb 8, 2003)

www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=9620
This thread is also about the different 'task' of Men and Elves, it might be useful. The idea of fairies as 'faded Elves'is also clear in LOTR, where Galadriel says something like 'we will fade so that we are only visible 'for those who have eyes to see'; I always took this as referring to the idea that the Elves who stay in ME are reduced to 'fairies' in the mind of Men.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 20, 2022)

*I thought I might revive this thread...*

This is an intriguing topic indeed...

The Doom of the Eldar is perhaps most obviously referred to through the Doom of Mandos in The Silmarillion, after the Noldor have committed the First Kinslaying at Alqualonde. The first opening words are "Tears unnumbered thou shalt shed...so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains" - not only is this a reference to the future Nirnaeth Arnoediad (Battle of Unnumbered Tears), but is also, in more metaphorical terms, an overall "signpost" of sorts as to what fate the the Noldorin Elves have now entangled themselves within.

Essentially, by this point, they have broken themselves off from the Valar, and Aman, entirely. Considering that the future actions of the Oath of Féanor would bring grief and sorrow amongst the Eldar in general, and referring again to the Prophecy that "The Dispossessed shall they be for ever", it suggests of how the Noldorin Exiles have walked upon a path that they cannot now return (with the exception of the Host of Finarfin, who repent and turn back to Valinor), and that what has been done has been done - there is no returning, and what must happen, will happen. Even the Noldor later realise that the power of Morgoth is too great for them alone to defeat - that they shall fall by the hands of the Dark Enemy, and that no aid would be given to them due to the decision that they have made for themselves. In essence, they are doomed to fall upon this path of fate.​


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