# Second-guessing and Misunderstanding Tolkien



## Radaghast (Aug 6, 2022)

This is not another "Why didn't they use the Eagles" thread though that topic is briefly discussed here. This is more a thread examining the seemingly constant stream of "Why didn't..." questions on sites like Reddit and Quora. The Eagle-related ones. Ones that ask why the Valar don't intercede. Etc.

Questions about the Eagles and the Valar might be excusable (if not valid) if the askers don't look into the logistics of the story or the background of the writing of the book or, of course, the need to create an engaging story (and, truthfully, how many works of fiction are flawless and without contrivance?). Almost needless to say, Tolkien did not set out to write a sequel to _The Hobbit_ of his own volition, but acquiescing to publisher and public request, he came up with _The Lord of the Rings_. In doing so, in choosing Bilbo's ring as the genesis of the idea that he would develop, he was perhaps operating under certain constraints. So, whatever flaws one might perceive in the work, I think one must consider the circumstances under which it was composed. If Tolkien had conceived of the idea of the Rings of Power from the start on his own (meaning without the demand for a follow-up to TH) we probably would have had something very different, and one possibly even better than what we were given. And what we got is fairly magnificent, especially considering the circumstances.

But there are some questions that go beyond the pale and look at other reasons why they think the course Tolkien took was the wrong one. One such question asks (to paraphrase), "Would it not have been more reasonable to give the Ring to someone who could control it, but not too strong so that the Ring could be taken from them?"  To my answer in which I basically said, no, it would not be more reasonable, the person replied that the plan in the book is "stupid"; that Sauron should logically have figured out that, since the Ring was not being used against him, that he would have figured out that the plan was to destroy it.  

Honestly, I couldn't be bothered to explain that the answer to this is in the book and that it takes more than a cursory reading to find it. If you don't accept the explanation, I guess take it or leave it and find something else to read, but I didn't even feel like saying that.

How would/do others here respond to such questions, if at all?


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 6, 2022)

In response to the question you listed above: "Would it not have been more reasonable to give the Ring to someone who could control it, but not too strong so that the Ring could be taken from them?"

I would say no.

I don't even know if such someone exists. It takes a great deal of power to 'control' the Ring. I don't think honestly anyone did. In my own opinion, to be able to gain power and control over the Ring itself, you would need to have power that would rival that of Sauron himself, who made the Ring. Yes, indeed there are those who have such power, but the Ring would consume them, and they, especially with aid of the Ring, would become far too powerful and unable to be stopped. The only one who we see in The Lord of the Rings who really isn't affected by the Ring, is Tom Bombadil, and that raises the inquiry of "Why not Tom?" but Gandalf says himself that Tom would be most unsafe to bear it, and that such should never be attempted. Yes, the Ring had no hold on Tom, but Tom had no hold on it. It was just an external power, and it did not frighten him, nor did it delight him. It just was. 

Gandalf likely had the power to wield or 'control' the Ring, but he would have become too great and too powerful. Galadriel, might have also had such power, but she is met with the same issue. Too much power. I am honestly quite sure that everyone in The Lord of the Rings was either too weak in power to control the Ring, or too powerful, for they could wield it, but it would consume them, and they could not be stopped.

In response to the comments ridiculing Tolkien's extraordinary plot and naming it, incorrectly, 'ridiculous':

No. It is not in the least bit a ridiculous plot. The Ring had been around for ages, and Sauron knew it so. It would have been almost beyond imagination to even think that someone would dare try and destroy it. To enter Mordor, was basically a sentence of death. To make it to Mt. Doom, you'd be almost guaranteed of it. I think a great part of how Frodo and Sam actually made it all the way through is that they were so small. I am not certain that if the whole Fellowship had been present, they would not have just been killed by Orcs or something. It would be completely unreasonable for anyone to think of destroying the Ring, especially because of it's enticing addictive qualities. Sauron would not imagine anyone making it that far.

Also, Sauron is Evil. He thinks in the ways of malice and hate, and walks in the paths of Darkness. The thought of 'for the sake of all Middle-Earth' or 'for the good of all' would not have really made sense to him. He was only working for himself. Anyone that he allied with or spent with, it was purely to benefit himself. And for this reason, I think in his mind, he would never have understood why anyone would destroy the Ring. Destroying it was no benefit to them, so why? He thought in terms of his own narcissistic view, and would not have thought about things in light of 'for the good of others'. 

Frodo, on the other hand, is kind and giving of heart, thinking about 'saving The Shire' even at the cost of his own life.

I hope these answers meet satisfaction.


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## Olorgando (Aug 6, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> ... the person replied that the plan in the book is "stupid"; that Sauron should logically have figured out that, since the Ring was not being used against him, that he would have figured out that the plan was to destroy it.  Honestly, I couldn't be bothered to explain that the answer to this is in the book and that it takes more than a cursory reading to find it. If you don't accept the explanation, I guess take it or leave it and find something else to read, but I didn't even feel like saying that.


My reply would have been an extremely vicious "read the book, you dumb 💩!!!"
Occasionally, it's impossible to "put things nicely". 😡


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## Radaghast (Aug 6, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> My reply would have been an extremely vicious "read the book, you dumb 💩!!!"
> Occasionally, it's impossible to "put things nicely". 😡


I used to give that as a common response. The book answers so many of these crazy questions that it leads me to conclude that the askers didn't read it and are just going by plot summary or the movies. 

In the case of this person, I saw no point in even responding, since he thought it was so stupid. I just assumed the book is not for him and went on my way.



Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> I hope these answers meet satisfaction.


Thank you. Of course, it's not me you have to convince 

Also, it occurs to me to remark on the contradictory nature of the question. Give the ring to someone so that they can defeat the Dark Lord yet is not so strong so they can still be defeated—specifically by confiscating the Ring.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 6, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> Also, it occurs to me to remark on the contradictory nature of the question. Give the ring to someone so that they can defeat the Dark Lord yet is not so strong so they can still be defeated—specifically by confiscating the Ring.


I know. It makes no sense. I am pretty sure Illuvatar is like the only one who could actually wield the Ring and not be completely corrupted.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 6, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> sites like Reddit and Quora


So, still going there, huh? And after my "hints and warnings". 😄

OK, I'm not immune either: this one popped up for me this morning:

Answer to What did Gandalf mean in The Two Towers when he said, "Indeed I am Saruman one might almost say, Saruman as he should have been."? by Jim Jagielski https://www.quora.com/What-did-Gand...share=8deba0ae&srid=u37ljO&target_type=answer

I linked it because of an aspect you didn't mention: the _answers. _The Istari are "ranked"? And by _color_? Where the heck does that come from? 

The shortest answer to most criticisms comes from Northop Frye:


> For many of the flaws which an inexperienced critic thinks he detects, the answer "But it's supposed to be that way" is sufficient.


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## Radaghast (Aug 6, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> So, still going there, huh? And after my "hints and warnings". 😄


I'm starting to keep away from the "wretched hive of scum and villainy" that is Reddit. Quora is not a great site but seems more hospitable, despite the constant influx of stupid questions.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 6, 2022)

Well, you get what you pay for. 😄


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 6, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Well, you get what you pay for. 😄


Except with this Forum!

You don't pay a penny-- and you get the perfect Tolkien site! 

A true gift from Illuvatar.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 6, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> You don't pay a penn


Same with Reddit-- but without the quality. 😉


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 6, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Same with Reddit-- but without the quality. 😉


'Tis true. This truly is the best and most superb Forum ever-- especially for Tolkien lovers, like me.


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## Olorgando (Aug 6, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> ... This is more a thread examining the seemingly constant stream of "Why didn't..." questions on sites like Reddit and Quora. ...


Has the question "Does Tom Bombadil have wings?" popped up there yet?

Jes' askin' ... 😁😎😈


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 6, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> Has the question "Does Tom Bombadil have wings?" popped up there yet?
> 
> Jes' askin' ... 😁😎😈


That is an odd inquiry.. Where does it even remotely indicate he does?


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## Radaghast (Aug 6, 2022)

Olorgando was joking but I just saw another question on Quora asking, "Is Beorn Tom Bombadil?" which is just as nutty 😂


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 6, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> Olorgando was joking but I just saw another question on Quora asking, "Is Beorn Tom Bombadil?" which is just as nutty 😂


Wow. Yes it is.... 
Do they even know Lord of the Rings at all?


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## Radaghast (Aug 6, 2022)

My guess is many people have an interest in Tolkien and his legendarium but don't want to commit to reading any of it.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 6, 2022)

"I really like Mexican food. I just don't want to try any".


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## Radaghast (Aug 6, 2022)

Of course, Quora is also a site where some users spam questions hoping to get paid, thanks to the site's annoying "Partnership Program". So some of these people may not even be sincerely interested and just research discussions and come up with silly questions.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 6, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> My guess is many people have an interest in Tolkien and his legendarium but don't want to commit to reading any of it.


You are likely correct in that assessment. It is intimidating by sheer size and measure-- but the commitment is worth it, as it is beyond rewarding.


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## Radaghast (Aug 8, 2022)

Another odd question: "In Glorfindel prophecy, is 'mortal man' male or a person, or is it open to interpretation?"

Why do people have this need to complicate things? It's not like Glorfindel's words can be tested.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 8, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> Another odd question: "In Glorfindel prophecy, is 'mortal man' male or a person, or is it open to interpretation?"
> 
> Why do people have this need to complicate things? It's not like Glorfindel's words can be tested.


'Tis true! Glorfindel's words will not be too modern. Sometimes the uncertainty makes things even more beautiful.


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## Elthir (Aug 8, 2022)

Glorfindel didn't speak English, but I'm sure Tolkien's translation will do


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 8, 2022)

Glorfindel apparently was a bit dyslexic.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 9, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Glorfindel apparently was a bit dyslexic.
> View attachment 14899


This is hilarious! 

I still wonder why Glorfindel couldn't lend his service-- it would have been useful!


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 9, 2022)

That's been discussed here recently.


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## Radaghast (Aug 9, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> This is hilarious!
> 
> I still wonder why Glorfindel couldn't lend his service-- it would have been useful!


Though the misspelling of 'strength' is silently killing me


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 9, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> Though the misspelling of 'strength' is silently killing me


That's one tiny bit of discord spotted...


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 9, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> I still wonder why Glorfindel couldn't lend his service-- it would have been useful!





Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> That's been discussed here recently


Here's an example:

Post in thread 'Aragorn's choice' https://www.thetolkienforum.com/threads/aragorns-choice.29163/post-536888


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## Radaghast (Aug 9, 2022)

Since this has kind of gone off-topic anyway, I'm going to treat this thread as the "odd question thread".

Today's exhibit:



> "Why are people in Middle Earth scared of Sauron when he's just a big stupid eye that can't do anything useful except say "peekaboo I see you"?



Such questions pop up regularly. Because people see Peej's trilogy as the BEST THING EVER, they assume it's authentic and faithful to the source and so assume the giant CG-Eyeball is canon.


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## Ent (Aug 9, 2022)

Hoom, Hruumm. Well.
This is an intriguing question at its root.
I have quickly come to the point that I simply ignore them. And frankly, they thrive everywhere, even on "The Tolkien Society's" facebook page, which would be the last place one would anticipate them. But of course - once a valid post is approved, they have no control over what gets put up as 'comments'. 

That said, I personally don't indulge in the "read the book, silly" or even "have you read the book silly?" kinds of responses, however tempting that may at times be. They can be deflating, and the questioners can't help themselves.

We DO live in a society that has purposely been trained to do NOTHING for themselves, but rather always seek to be 'spoon fed' what they want...whether it's information, knowledge, or even yes for some, still their food. 
(This is why the Mainstream Media is now so successful at brainwashing the populace to the preferred agendas of whoever currently holds the reins of power. It's all been cleverly worked together to an ultimate end. And no, I'm not a conspiracy theorist.. just an observer of facts.)

So that said, some folks are posting absurdities intentionally for various reasons as has been cited - with one of the biggest being simply to 'argue' because they live in the zones of negativity and seek discord (Melkor, anyone?) - and "I am always right in spite of the facts" (Melkor, anyone?)

Others post absurdities because they have not been trained to think for themselves, so cannot help themselves, and having learned to be spoon-fed from birth and are still crying out for someone to fill them up.

They will not change. So if we wish to see a change, it must be "us" that we change.

As my own search is for meaningful questions and meaningful responses, or thoughts and ideas that spur me on to more research, I simply ignore the absurdities. (97.6241 percent of what's posted out there, not to put a number to it...)


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 9, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> So if we wish to see a change, it must be "us" that we change.


Indeed.

_The greatest Light comes forth from within ourselves._


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## Radaghast (Aug 9, 2022)




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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 9, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> the giant CG-Eyeball-canon.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 9, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> View attachment 14901


_No, not a *cannon*..._


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## Erestor Arcamen (Aug 9, 2022)

More Glorfindel threads: (*NOTE: If you would like an archived thread reactivated to post in, send me a PM with the link!*)









Why didnt Glorfindel go to war?


I mean really. It is never said in the appendixes that rivendell was attacked. Only Lorien, Mirkwood, and Esgaroth and dale. And gondor of course. So couldnt Glorfindel have done so much more good coming with the grey company and being at the last battle? Or if you want a different thread...




www.thetolkienforum.com













Questions on Glorfindel


(I'm getting extremely talented at asking amazingly stupid questions, but here goes: ) In The Silmarillion, Glorfindel dies helping the people of Gondolin escape: (Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin) Many are the songs that have been sung of the duel of Glorfindel with the Balrog upon a...




www.thetolkienforum.com













Glorfindel - arrival to and departure from ME


From HoME XII; Last Writings; Glorfindel: An Elf who had once known Middle-earth and had fought in the long wars against Melkor would be an eminently suitable companion for Gandalf. We could then reasonably suppose that Glorfindel (possibly as one of a small party, more probably as a sole...




www.thetolkienforum.com













A question about Glorfindel.


Now, If I remember correctly, (from The Encyclopedia of Arda), Tolkien never gave a concrete reference, but he indeed meant that Glorfindel of Rivendell was the reincarnated Glorfindel from Gondolin. Gandalf even mentions something about ones like Glorfindel existing both in the West and in ME...




www.thetolkienforum.com













Glorfindel back in town


In another post someone said: "But Glorfindel (. . .) accepted as having come back from Aman after having been in the Halls of Mandos – also making him a category of one in Elvendom." making this pour from my head for anyone interested about the once dead When Tolkien first chose the name...




www.thetolkienforum.com


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 9, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> More Glorfindel threads: (*NOTE: If you would like an archived thread reactivated to post in, send me a PM with the link!*)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing these-- I will have to check them out!


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 9, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> Has the question "Does Tom Bombadil have wings?" popped up there yet?
> 
> Jes' askin' ... 😁😎😈


The obvious followup question would be "Why couldn't they just fly Tom Bombadil to Mordor?"


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 9, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> The obvious followup question would be "Why couldn't they just fly Tom Bombadil to Mordor?"


I must admit-- I have never encountered this one before...


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## Radaghast (Aug 9, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> The obvious followup question would be "Why couldn't they just fly Tom Bombadil to Mordor?"


Please don't give anyone any ideas 😆


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 9, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> Please don't give anyone any ideas 😆


Good point. They say there are no stupid questions, but...


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## Radaghast (Aug 9, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Good point. They say there are no stupid questions, but...


I've always wondered who "they" are...


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 9, 2022)




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## Radaghast (Aug 9, 2022)

LOL wut?


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## Erestor Arcamen (Aug 9, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> The obvious followup question would be "Why couldn't they just fly Tom Bombadil to Mordor?"


Goldberry has wings


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## Radaghast (Aug 9, 2022)




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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 9, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> LOL wut?


You know -- _them._


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 9, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> I've always wondered who "they" are...


Ah, yes... the mysterious _they._

It is _those _people...


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## Radaghast (Aug 9, 2022)




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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 10, 2022)

Radaghast said:


>


Sure.. Something like that...


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 10, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Sure.. Something like that...


Yet also not quite.


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## Olorgando (Aug 10, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Good point. They say there are no stupid questions, but...


"They" are definitely wrong, very very wrong. 🤨


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## Ent (Aug 10, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> "They" are definitely wrong, very very wrong. 🤨



Though I hesitate to say it... can one really name the 'question' as being 'stupid' ? 
Or - (failing in my self-restraint here) - must one look to its source - its originator. (GASP....!! Did I say that?)


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## Olorgando (Aug 10, 2022)

There's no separating question and originator. More often than asking stupid questions, we (and with this I mean all of humanity from time immemorial, and very likely for any foreseeable future) do stupid things. Seems to be part of our nature. It is in the asking of a question, or in the doing of something, that we are *at that time* stupid. We might be able to go for longer times before and after without being so, but we all have these "mental hiccups" every once in a while.


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## Ent (Aug 10, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> that we are *at that time* stupid.



A fine analysis. And one can suppose that many of the 'seemingly' stupid are rather from ignorance instead.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Aug 10, 2022)




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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 10, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


>


Right - they're just the Nazgul, aren't they?


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## Erestor Arcamen (Aug 10, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> Right - they're just the Nazgul, aren't they?


Yup, charming gentleman here to give a little poke with their fancy metal sticks


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 10, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> Yup, charming gentleman here to give a little poke with their fancy metal sticks


_Metal sticks?! _Ah, the Morgul blades - don't want to come in contact with one of those! They e'en prevent you from going to the Halls of Mandos - since it's an "in limbo" state of being undead.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 10, 2022)




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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 10, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> View attachment 14933


_I see explosions...and destructions...and Doom...many will fall upon that day, in that realm..._


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## Eljorahir (Aug 10, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> View attachment 14933


Ah, the good ol' days. Watching Daleks with CO2 fire extinguishers on one side and toilet plungers on the other.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 10, 2022)

Eljorahir said:


> Ah, the good ol' days. Watching Daleks with CO2 fire extinguishers on one side and toilet plungers on the other.


Well that is something you don't see said often.


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## Eljorahir (Aug 10, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Well that is something you don't see said often.


They just don't make megamaniacal killer robots like they used to...sad.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 10, 2022)

Eljorahir said:


> They just don't make megamaniacal killer robots like they used to...sad.


I don't believe _any _of this makes sense to me....


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## Eljorahir (Aug 10, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> I don't believe _any _of this makes sense to me....


I take it you're not a "Doctor Who" fan. If you want a quick taste of the Daleks, maybe search YouTube for a clip from "Genesis of The Daleks". They are quite the rascally killer robots.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 10, 2022)

Eljorahir said:


> I take it you're not a "Doctor Who" fan. If you want a quick taste of the Daleks, maybe search YouTube for a clip from "Genesis of The Daleks". They are quite the rascally killer robots.


You would be correct in that assessment. I will keep that in mind if ever I am looking for something to watch. (A rare occasion as most all my time is invested into something Tolkien) Thanks for sharing.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 10, 2022)

If you decide to follow the Doctor's adventures, you'd better get started soon, if you want to get caught up by the time you finish high school. 😉









Doctor Who - Wikipedia







en.m.wikipedia.org


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## Eljorahir (Aug 10, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> If you decide to follow the Doctor's adventures, you'd better get started soon, if you want to get caught up by the time you finish high school. 😉
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Episode 1, "An Unearthly Child", November 1963


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 10, 2022)

And the latest coming up this autumn. As I said, lots of catching up.😃


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## Olorgando (Aug 10, 2022)

Eljorahir said:


> Episode 1, "An Unearthly Child", November 1963





Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> And the latest coming up this autumn. As I said, lots of catching up.😃


Well, there *was* a hiatus from 1989 to 2005 ...


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## Eljorahir (Aug 10, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> And the latest coming up this autumn. As I said, lots of catching up.😃


*Visitor:* "How can it be bigger on the inside than it is on the outside?!?!
*Doctor:* "Because it's dimensionally transcendental."
*Visitor:* "What does that mean?"
*Doctor*: "It means it's bigger on the inside than it is on the outside! Stop bothering me with silly questions."


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 10, 2022)

Eljorahir said:


> They just don't make megamaniacal killer robots like they used to


Definitely.


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## Eljorahir (Aug 10, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Definitely.
> View attachment 14943


Guys. No offense, but I think we might be dorks.


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## Starbrow (Aug 10, 2022)

> And the latest coming up this autumn. As I said, lots of catching up.😃


I only have one more episode and I will be all caught up. Until October anyway.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 10, 2022)

You didnt start yesterday, I take it.


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## Starbrow (Aug 10, 2022)

I've been watching for the last 40 years. It's much easier to catch up with streaming services these days, than waiting for the once a week episode on PBS.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 11, 2022)

Hmm... This thread has also derailed-- it seems..


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## Gothmog (Aug 11, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Hmm... This thread has also derailed-- it seems..


The Doctor will do that


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 11, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Hmm... This thread has also derailed-- it seems..


Can't we get it back to Tolkien? 

_Estel imíca Lúme ar i Eleni!
(Hope amongst Time and the Stars!)

(Another Námo/Varda reference - I couldn't resist...)_


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## Aldarion (Aug 11, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Same with Reddit-- but without the quality. 😉


With Reddit, you get _exactly what you paid for_.


Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> You would be correct in that assessment. I will keep that in mind if ever I am looking for something to watch. (A rare occasion as most all my time is invested into something Tolkien) Thanks for sharing.


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## Eljorahir (Aug 11, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> Can't we get it back to Tolkien?
> 
> _Estel imíca Lúme ar i Eleni!
> (Hope amongst Time and the Stars!)
> ...


I may have caused the derailment...oops.

So, I guess the topic is basically:

*What would you change in the Lord of The Rings Books to improve upon the story?*


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 11, 2022)

Eljorahir said:


> I may have caused the derailment...oops.


_Thou hast my forgiveness for that. _


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## Eljorahir (Aug 11, 2022)

How about Pippin dropping that rock in the well in Moria, just when the Fellowship was almost past the danger? Even if Pippin was the happy-go-lucky hobbit early in his travels, after all the danger he'd seen (Weathertop, the Ford of Bruinen, etc.) it seems like he would have been much more careful in a scary place like Moria. Since he dropped the rock, now basically, Gandalf's fall with the Balrog can be blamed on Pippin! That's terrible!


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## Ealdwyn (Aug 11, 2022)

Eljorahir said:


> How about Pippin dropping that rock in the well in Moria, just when the Fellowship was almost past the danger? Even if Pippin was the happy-go-lucky hobbit early in his travels, after all the danger he'd seen (Weathertop, the Ford of Bruinen, etc.) it seems like he would have been much more careful in a scary place like Moria. Since he dropped the rock, now basically, Gandalf's fall with the Balrog can be blamed on Pippin! That's terrible!


But Pippin's primary trait is his indomitable spirit. If he suddenly started being subdued and cautious it would be out of character. 
Besides, this is very much exaggerated in the films. He's not quite so much comic relief in the book.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 11, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> Can't we get it back to Tolkien?
> 
> _Estel imíca Lúme ar i Eleni!
> (Hope amongst Time and the Stars!)
> ...


Indeed we can! 

Translate this:

_Anessë as tùra emel._


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 11, 2022)

Eljorahir said:


> I may have caused the derailment...oops.
> 
> So, I guess the topic is basically:
> 
> *What would you change in the Lord of The Rings Books to improve upon the story?*


Dare I say-- probably nothing. I adore it SO MUCH.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 11, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> _Anessë as tùra emel._


A surname with great love. (But _emel_ can also mean "mother".)

_*Silently watches with much suspense from afar*_


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## Radaghast (Aug 11, 2022)

Eljorahir said:


> How about Pippin dropping that rock in the well in Moria, just when the Fellowship was almost past the danger? Even if Pippin was the happy-go-lucky hobbit early in his travels, after all the danger he'd seen (Weathertop, the Ford of Bruinen, etc.) it seems like he would have been much more careful in a scary place like Moria. Since he dropped the rock, now basically, Gandalf's fall with the Balrog can be blamed on Pippin! That's terrible!


Debatable, I think. I doubt it was a silly rock that alerts the orcs to the presence of the Fellowship.


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## Ent (Aug 11, 2022)

Eljorahir said:


> What would you change in the Lord of The Rings Books to improve upon the story?



It would SEEM to me that anyone who responds to this indicating they would change something, would be one who has then no cause to grieve over the 'changes' made in the Hobbit and LoTR movies, and upcoming 'rings of power' series.

Just sayin'... 😁


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 11, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> It would SEEM to me that anyone who responds to this indicating they would change something, would be one who has then no cause to grieve over the 'changes' made in the Hobbit and LoTR movies, and upcoming 'rings of power' series.


_True are thy words indeed._


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## Ent (Aug 11, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> _True are thy words indeed._


Ssshhh... ruin my image..!!


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 11, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> It would SEEM to me that anyone who responds to this indicating they would change something, would be one who has then no cause to grieve over the 'changes' made in the Hobbit and LoTR movies, and upcoming 'rings of power' series.
> 
> Just sayin'... 😁


This is so true. Which is why my response: Literally NOTHING. I love Tolkien just how it is.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 11, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> _Anessë as tùra emel._
> 
> 
> Vilisse said:
> ...


_Was I close in this? 

(I probably wasn't-)_


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 11, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> _Was I close in this?
> 
> (I probably wasn't-)_


Nope. Not really.

_It means: Given with love. in Quenya._


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## Eljorahir (Aug 11, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> Debatable, I think. I doubt it was a silly rock that alerts the orcs to the presence of the Fellowship.



Pippin drops the stone. Within several minutes they hear the noises from below (the first indication of enemies actively present in Moria), "tom-tap, tap-tom..."

"'Yes', said Gandalf, 'and I do not like it. It may have nothing to do with Peregrin's foolish stone; but probably something has been disturbed that would have been better left quiet.'"

100% certainty that Pippin's stone alerted the enemies...no.

However, according to Gandalf/Tolkien Pippin's stone probably alerted the enemies.


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## Ent (Aug 11, 2022)

Eljorahir said:


> Pippin drops the stone. Within several minutes they hear the noises from below (the first indication of enemies actively present in Moria), "tom-tap, tap-tom..."
> 
> "'Yes', said Gandalf, 'and I do not like it. It may have nothing to do with Peregrin's foolish stone; but probably something has been disturbed that would have been better left quiet.'"
> 
> ...



AHA. If Gandalf chose to phrase it as "speculation" I give it to our Chief Cellrog and his Great Halls... 😁
(That said, I do agree with the Big G that it is 'probably' directly connected.)

Note that T said "Peregrin's foolish stone' rather than 'foolish Peregrin's stone.' 

What lessons do we take away from that?


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## Eljorahir (Aug 11, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> AHA. If Gandalf chose to phrase it as "speculation" I give it to our Chief Cellrog and his Great Halls... 😁
> (That said, I do agree with the Big G that it is 'probably' directly connected.)
> 
> Note that T said "Peregrin's foolish stone' rather than 'foolish Peregrin's stone.'
> ...


Foolish Tooks don't awaken sleeping Balrogs, foolish stones do???


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## Ent (Aug 11, 2022)

Eljorahir said:


> Foolish Tooks don't awaken sleeping Balrogs, foolish stones do???



"we wonders, yes we wonders."


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## Ent (Aug 11, 2022)

I'm trying so VERY hard not to make a socio-political comment here...


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## Eljorahir (Aug 11, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> I'm trying so VERY hard not to make a socio-political comment here...


That's best. I derailed the thread before and tried to get it back to "Second Guessing Tolkien" as my penance.


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## Ent (Aug 11, 2022)

Eljorahir said:


> "Second Guessing Tolkien"



So staying on the "2nd guessing" line.... it is Gollum that awakens the Orcs, padding along behind them through the place, thinking if he stirs up trouble and they get killed maybe he can get at the ring again...especially in the deeps of the dark..! Not the foolish stone.


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## Eljorahir (Aug 11, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> So staying on the "2nd guessing" line.... it is Gollum that awakens the Orcs, padding along behind them through the place, thinking if he stirs up trouble and they get killed maybe he can get at the ring again...especially in the deeps of the dark..! Not the foolish stone.


I'm starting to wonder if I'm being trolled by a tree (ok..."Enting". But I like the way "trolled by a tree" sounds). 😉
If memory serves, I think they've been in Moria for many days with Gollum following. Then, the noises from below come immediately after the stone dropped by the "fool of a Took".

Do you really think Pippin's stone wasn't the trigger? Or, are you just messin' with me? Either way, it's OK.


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## Ent (Aug 11, 2022)

Eljorahir said:


> I'm starting to wonder if I'm being trolled by a tree (ok..."Enting". But I like the way "trolled by a tree" sounds). 😉
> If memory serves, I think they've been in Moria for many days with Gollum following. Then, the noises from below come immediately after the stone dropped by the "fool of a Took".
> 
> Do you really think Pippin's stone wasn't the trigger? Or, are you just messin' with me? Either way, it's OK.



I'm just messin'. The weight of evidence is with that darned foolish stone.
But I'm always willing to toss things out there for the Cellrog's Great Halls....


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## Eljorahir (Aug 11, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> I'm just messin'. The weight of evidence is with that darned foolish stone.
> But I'm always willing to toss things out there for the Cellrog's Great Halls....


Effective messin'. You had me until the last post about Gollum. 

Based on the comments after my "Pippin" post, I'm starting to wonder if the subject of this thread is a non-starter. The consensus seems to be: Tolkien's words are perfect. He who entertains the notion of improving upon them shall surely be given a stern talking to.


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## Radaghast (Aug 11, 2022)

Eljorahir said:


> Pippin drops the stone. Within several minutes they hear the noises from below (the first indication of enemies actively present in Moria), "tom-tap, tap-tom..."
> 
> "'Yes', said Gandalf, 'and I do not like it. It may have nothing to do with Peregrin's foolish stone; but probably something has been disturbed that would have been better left quiet.'"
> 
> ...


I don't doubt that the orcs hear the stone, but I'm less than sure that it's the first thing they hear of the Fellowship, who made a lot of noise on the way to the Chamber. Their very entrance is marked by a crash of crumbling masonry. My guess is that the stone merely defines the position of the Fellowship more clearly to the orcs of Moria.

In any case, if the stone did alert the orcs to the Fellowship, it's as much Gandalf's fault as it is Pippin's. Gandalf never calls for the Company to be silent at any point and certainly doesn't make it clear that nobody should touch anything. Such might be obvious to seasoned adventurers like Gandalf and Aragorn, but not to green Pippin.


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## Ent (Aug 11, 2022)

Eljorahir said:


> I think they've been in Moria for many days with Gollum following.



Just as a note this roused my curiosities.
It "cannot be less than 40 miles" straight through, and Gandalf says it will take "3 or 4 marches."

The text says: "It was after nightfall when they had entered the Mines. They had been going for several hours with only brief halts, when Gandalf came to his first serious check." (multiple passages). They decided to "rest for the rest of the night". Gandalf says "the late Moon is riding westward and the middle-night has passed.

They found a chamber just off this hall. Gandalf cries "Steady! Steady!" as Merry and Pippin push forward into it. "I will go first". 
There they find the well.

So it's the first day just after 'several hours' between "nightfall" when they entered, and "the middle-night passing" that they come to the well.

Now THERE's some inconsequential trivia for us...!😃


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## Eljorahir (Aug 11, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> Just as a note this roused my curiosities.
> It "cannot be less than 40 miles" straight through, and Gandalf says it will take "3 or 4 marches."
> 
> The text says: "It was after nightfall when they had entered the Mines. They had been going for several hours with only brief halts, when Gandalf came to his first serious check." (multiple passages). They decided to "rest for the rest of the night". Gandalf says "the late Moon is riding westward and the middle-night has passed.
> ...


Then, I was mistaken in my memory, thinking they were almost free and clear when Pippin dropped the stone. So, that does detract from my way of thinking just a little bit.

Either way in my second-guessing of The Master, I'd have Pippin not drop the stone and possibly have Gimli's grief at seeing Balin's Tomb be the trigger that alerts the enemies.

_"Tho Gimli, Gloin's son, is made of the stern stuff of earth and stone, in that moment his dwarven heart could not contain his grief, and the wail of his despair came forth. Thus Durin's Bane was reawakened by Gimli the Dwarf as in ages past it was awakened by the Dwarves of Old."

--Thus writes Eljorahir, wannabe editor of The Master--_


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## Ent (Aug 11, 2022)

Eljorahir said:


> Then, I was mistaken in my memory, thinking they were almost free and clear when Pippin dropped the stone. So, that does detract from my way of thinking just a little bit.
> 
> Either way in my second-guessing of The Master, I'd have Pippin not drop the stone and possibly have Gimli's grief at seeing Balin's Tomb be the trigger that alerts the enemies.
> 
> ...



A much better alternative than would Gollum's great risk (to both himself and the ring) be should he contrive to 'rat them out.'
I like it...


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## Ent (Aug 11, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> A much better alternative than would Gollum's great risk (to both himself and the ring) be should he contrive to 'rat them out.'
> I like it...



I guess if I really, really wanted to do something differently with Tolkien's text, it would be to re-write portions of the Bree scene. There's just something about it I don't quite like as well as I should.

Pippin behaves perfectly in character...incautious, getting into his cups, being loose-lipped and acting thoughtlessly.
Frodo on the other hand, in 'resolving' the situation, takes a very 'unlike Frodo' direction (to me) to handle it.

Does it really seem, given his otherwise cautious and thoughtful character, and as the oldest and also a 'respectable' Hobbit, that he'd jump up on a table and start a speech? And then get carried away with his further uncharacteristic antics, and end up 'accidentally' slipping on the ring?

He's well older than Pippin (who is the youngest of them.) It's far more likely he'd just go out, (symbolically) 'grab the rascally youth by the scruff of the neck', drag him back to the table, sit him down, and tell him to be more cautious... at which the ever-aware and on-target Pippin, being well into his cups, would undoubtedly say something loudly and stupidly, like "I wasn't going to say anything about the ring...I would NEVER say anything about the ring" which would of course have been overheard, with corresponding results following out from it.

Bree is a nice place to have the events. I'm just not overly fond of the manner of their unfolding, I guess.
Too little Frodo, too much 'somebody else in his body' for me. And I don't think for him his off-character behavior could be laid off to 'the cups.'


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## Eljorahir (Aug 11, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> I guess if I really, really wanted to do something differently with Tolkien's text, it would be to re-write portions of the Bree scene. There's just something about it I don't quite like as well as I should.
> 
> Pippin behaves perfectly in character...incautious, getting into his cups, being loose-lipped and acting thoughtlessly.
> Frodo on the other hand, in 'resolving' the situation, takes a very 'unlike Frodo' direction (to me) to handle it.
> ...


I see your point. Pippin was simply (perhaps unwisely) retelling the story of Bilbo's birthday party and disappearance. I think everyone in the Shire and possibly all the Hobbits of Bree knew the story already. Frodo definitely made the situation worse (out of character) by intervening the way he did. I guess the whole sequence is just designed to get Frodo to put on the ring and raise the danger level.


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## Radaghast (Aug 11, 2022)

Frodo acts quickly and out of desperation, especially when urged by Strider. I don't see it as out-of-character behavior.


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## Ent (Aug 11, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> Frodo acts quickly and out of desperation, especially when urged by Strider. I don't see it as out-of-character behavior.


OK.


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## Radaghast (Aug 11, 2022)

Eljorahir said:


> I guess the whole sequence is just designed to get Frodo to put on the ring and raise the danger level.


Yeah, there's that. Every story needs conflict, even in places where you might not expect it. If Frodo does the sensible thing, whatever that might be, or if Strider instead causes the diversion, we likely end up with a boring chapter.


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## Eljorahir (Aug 11, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> Yeah, there's that. Every story needs conflict, even in places where you might not expect it. If Frodo does the sensible thing, whatever that might be, or if Strider instead causes the diversion, we likely end up with a boring chapter.


Yep, I see what you're saying. I think maybe Enting's point is there may have been a better way to ratchet up the conflict (danger level) in Bree than having Frodo pretending to be drunk and singing the Cow Jumps Over The Moon song.


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## Ent (Aug 11, 2022)

Eljorahir said:


> Yep, I see what you're saying. I think maybe Enting's point is there may have been a better way to ratchet up the conflict (danger level) in Bree than having Frodo pretending to be drunk and singing the Cow Jumps Over The Moon song.



Indeed, that's pretty much my point. I do think with a less obvious "incident", the ratcheting of the intrigue would be far from 'boring' and could be very well done (by someone like Tolkien) without loss to the story. Even with the pressure of the scenario and Strider's prompting, I don't think a 'thoughtful' Hobbit like Frodo would go for a method leaving them all right at the 'center of attention' - even if it's just jumping on a table, making a speech, and being 'pushed' into doing some singing.

He of them all knew that laying low was paramount.

All that said, there's nothing 'wrong' with the way it is... it's just one of my least favorite spots, and feels a little more out of place than it should.


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## Olorgando (Aug 11, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> Indeed, that's pretty much my point. I do think with a less obvious "incident", the ratcheting of the intrigue would be far from 'boring' and could be very well done (by someone like Tolkien) without loss to the story. Even with the pressure of the scenario and Strider's prompting, I don't think a 'thoughtful' Hobbit like Frodo would go for a method leaving them all right at the 'center of attention' - even if it's just jumping on a table, making a speech, and being 'pushed' into doing some singing.
> 
> He of them all knew that laying low was paramount.
> 
> All that said, there's nothing 'wrong' with the way it is... it's just one of my least favorite spots, and feels a little more out of place than it should.


Lurking in the background - or Frodo's pocket (with the benefit of the hindsight of many re-readings, and lots of help by people like Tom Shippey) - is the One Ring. So while Frodo Baggins might well have been acting out of character, Frodo-the-Ring-bearer might have been nudged in that direction by subtle promptings of the One Ring. JRRT leaves the issue of how "exactly" it influences its bearer unresolved - on purpose, is my guess. But the Ring could be construed to have sensed the proximity of some of the Nazgûl in the Shire, and that they were not far away from Bree. The Ring would then have quite the *opposite* intent to Frodo's *not* wanting to attract attention to himself and his companions ... certainly very speculative.


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## Ent (Aug 11, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> Lurking in the background - or Frodo's pocket (with the benefit of the hindsight of many re-readings, and lots of help by people like Tom Shippey) - is the One Ring. So while Frodo Baggins might well have been acting out of character, Frodo-the-Ring-bearer might have been nudged in that direction by subtle promptings of the One Ring. JRRT leaves the issue of how "exactly" it influences its bearer unresolved - on purpose, is my guess. But the Ring could be construed to have sensed the proximity of some of the Nazgûl in the Shire, and that they were not far away from Bree. The Ring would then have quite the *opposite* intent to Frodo's *not* wanting to attract attention to himself and his companions ... certainly very speculative.



Indeed there are many ways to consider it. And there’s nothing wrong with the way it is.

but with a string question that says “if you could change anything in his writing what would you change”, I gave my response.

The question is speculative. By nature, most all answers are going to be speculative. 
Personally I would rewrite it.


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## Olorgando (Aug 11, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> Personally I would rewrite it.


To make the incident subtler, if I read your above posts correctly.
Which would have annoyed the most prominent and (so far!) most blatant second-guesser of JRRT, PJ. One thing, as far as I can see, that no one can accuse him of is subtlety ... 😈


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 11, 2022)

Interesting topic... I am enjoying reading through these previous posts.


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## Eljorahir (Aug 11, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Interesting topic... I am enjoying reading through these previous posts.


Yes. I think we're doing better today versus yesterday's derailment. 😎


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## Ent (Aug 11, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> To make the incident subtler, if I read your above posts correctly.
> Which would have annoyed the most prominent and (so far!) most blatant second-guesser of JRRT, PJ. One thing, as far as I can see, that no one can accuse him of is subtlety ... 😈


Yes. The incident subtler. The development of Frodos character more consistent…especially so early in the story. And to allow for a bit of a “darker” element of intrigue to the building of the tension. 
I don’t think Frodo prancing around unnecessarily adds to the story. In some ways for me it detracts. At best it just carries it along.

it’s one of Tolkiens very few spots that isn’t distinctly additive…which should be the goal of every scene written.

Butterbur is enough comic relief into the atmosphere and the existing circumstances. 
Again, all my opinion.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 12, 2022)

What an intriguing topic! This is very interesting.


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## Radaghast (Aug 15, 2022)

I changed the title of this thread to be more general. And I didn't want to create a separate thread for this: This being the confusion between orcs and goblins and the utter certainty some have that they are different creatures. I'm currently debating some lunkhead who believes Tolkien, who stated in _The Hobbit_ that goblin is just a translation of orc, changed this in _The Lord of the Rings_ so that goblins are a subset of orcs. The words are used interchangeably on occasion in both books.

Sample comment:


> By the LOTR being published, Goblins are identified as a subspecies and explicitly described as “mountain dwelling orcs.” Orc is the old English word for ‘killer’. Goblin has an uncertain etymology but is probably linked to the Germanic Kobold which means Cave-dweller / cave dwelling imp


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## Tar-Elenion (Aug 15, 2022)

Tolkien's Guide to Names in LotR:
"Orc. This is supposed to be the Common Speech name of these creatures at that time; it should therefore according to the system be translated into English, or the language of translation. It was translated ‘goblin’ in The Hobbit, except in one place; but this word, and other words of similar sense in other European languages (as far as I know), are not really suitable. The orc in The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion, though of course partly made out of traditional features, is not really comparable in supposed origin, functions, and relation to the Elves. In any case orc seemed to me, and seems, in sound a good name for these creatures."


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 15, 2022)

Tar-Elenion said:


> Tolkien's Guide to Names in LotR:
> "Orc. This is supposed to be the Common Speech name of these creatures at that time; it should therefore according to the system be translated into English, or the language of translation. It was translated ‘goblin’ in The Hobbit, except in one place; but this word, and other words of similar sense in other European languages (as far as I know), are not really suitable. The orc in The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion, though of course partly made out of traditional features, is not really comparable in supposed origin, functions, and relation to the Elves. In any case orc seemed to me, and seems, in sound a good name for these creatures."


Thanks for this citation-- very direct.


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## Ent (Aug 15, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Thanks for this citation-- very direct.



Backed up a little by his letters:
"Also the Orcs (goblins) and other monsters bred by the First Enemy are not wholly destroyed." Letter 151 to Milton Waldman

"They are not based on direct experience of mine; but owe, I suppose, a good deal to the goblin tradition (goblin is used as a translation in The Hobbit, where orc only occurs once, I think), especially as it appears in George MacDonald, MacDonald, except for the soft feet which I never believed in. The name has the form orch (pl. yrch) in Sindarin and uruk in the Black Speech." Letter 144 to Naomi Mitchison

"Your preference of goblins to orcs involves a large question and a matter of taste, and perhaps historical pedantry on my part. Personally I prefer Orcs (since these creatures are not ‘goblins’, not even the goblins of George MacDonald, which they do to some extent resemble)." Letter 151 Hugh Brogan (Needs to be understood in its context. While Tolkien considers his Orcs and Goblins to be the same thing, he is making a distinction between HIS goblins, and MacDonald's goblins. He's not making a distinction between his own orcs/goblins.)

"The hostility of (even good) Dwarves and Elves, a motive that often appears, derives from the legends of the First Age; the Mines of Moria, the wars of Dwarves and Orcs (goblins, soldiery of the Dark Lord) refer to the Second Age and early Third." "Letters" Footnotes - again equating his orcs/goblins without distinction.

Tolkien was quite consistent in his thinking. Orcs (originally "ores") are Goblins and Goblins are Orcs.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 15, 2022)

Thanks for the other citations, Enting! Good to know!


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## Radaghast (Aug 15, 2022)

I've asked this person to provide proof of his claim, that Tolkien meant to consciously separate orcs and goblins. He responded with _ad hominem_ attacks and such. I said provide a quote and cite the source. Nothing.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 16, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Nope. Not really.
> 
> _It means: Given with love. in Quenya._


_Ah, hannon-le. I'm not good with translations... _


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## Ent (Aug 16, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> I've asked this person to provide proof of his claim, that Tolkien meant to consciously separate orcs and goblins. He responded with _ad hominem_ attacks and such. I said provide a quote and cite the source. Nothing.



Indeed, one need not contend with a contender. Your 'shrug' is appropriate.

One learns to just cite one's sources, gently share what their conclusion is as a result of those sources, cordially invite alternate sources for consideration along with a willingness to change one's view in light of them should the situation merit, and then leave well enough alone.

There are some who just 'must be right' in spite of the facts. They can drain the life-force and joy out of those around them, and this almost seems to be their purpose in life. 

This is almost universally demonstrated in precisely what you cite above... "attacks"... the nature of which can vary widely, but at root are all the same. Just attacks. From battle theory...in absence of a good defense, an attack or a withdrawal are the only two choices... and the arrogant will always choose the attack.

Retain your energies for the joys of life - as I'm sure you do anyway.


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## Elthir (Aug 16, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> I'm currently debating some lunkhead who believes Tolkien, who stated in _The Hobbit_ that goblin is just a translation of orc, changed this in _The Lord of the Rings_ so that goblins are a subset of orcs. The words are used interchangeably on occasion in both book.



You can also tell this person that the Hobbit statement (on translation) appears in the *Third Edition*
of _The Hobbit_ -- thus published *after* The Lord of the Rings.

In my opinion, in _The Hobbit_ as first published, and in the *drafts* for _The Lord of the Rings_, there was a distinction between a "goblin" and an "orc" . . . but these examples from (the drafts of) _The Lord of the Rings_ fell away, and _The Hobbit_ examples were dealt with by Tolkien's ultimate scenario . . .

. . . as expressed in relatively late texts, like the _Third Edition Hobbit,_ and the _Nomenclature_ reference *Tar-Elenion* already noted, for examples.

And the ultimate scenario fits in perfectly with Tolkien's translation conceit published in Appendix F!


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 16, 2022)

There has to be a difference between Goblins and Orcs, right? The Goblins in The Hobbit are not orcs. They are different, I think...


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 16, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> There has to be a difference between Goblins and Orcs, right? The Goblins in The Hobbit are not orcs. They are different, I think...


I think "Goblin" was just an older, obsolete term for "Orc" - but I might be wrong.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 16, 2022)

Hmm... That is strange, since there is both a 'Goblin alphabet' and an Orc one... However, you could be correct.


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## Ent (Aug 16, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Hmm... That is strange, since there is both a 'Goblin alphabet' and an Orc one... However, you could be correct.



Not surprising, since the Elves also have different alphabets, yet they are all Elves.


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## Radaghast (Aug 16, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> There has to be a difference between Goblins and Orcs, right? The Goblins in The Hobbit are not orcs. They are different, I think...


No, they are orcs. According to the "Author's Note" in _The Hobbit_:


> _Orc_ is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds).


Also, see quote posted by Tar-Elenion. Additionally, there are many instances of Tolkien using both words interchangeably within the same paragraph. Example:


> Slowly in Pippin’s aching head memory pieced itself together and became separated from dream-shadows. Of course: he and Merry had run off into the woods. What had come over them? Why had they dashed off like that, taking no notice of old Strider? They had run a long way shouting--he could not remember how far or how long; and then suddenly they had crashed right into a group of Orcs: they were standing listening, and they did not appear to see Merry and Pippin until they were almost in their arms. Then they yelled and dozens of other goblins had sprung out of the trees. Merry and he had drawn their swords, but the Orcs did not wish to fight, and had tried only to lay hold of them, even when Merry had cut off several of their arms and hands. Good old Merry!


— "The Uruk-hai"

From the same chapter:


> ‘I don’t think you will find it that way,’ [Pippin] whispered. ‘It isn’t easy to find.’
> 
> ‘_Find it_?’ said Grishnákh: his fingers stopped crawling and gripped Pippin’s shoulder. ‘Find what? What are you talking about, little one?’
> 
> ...


Readers know Grishnákh as an orc. Yet here he is called a goblin. The only meaningful conclusion is that there is absolutely no distinction between the two words in the legendarium.


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## Olorgando (Aug 16, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Hmm... That is strange, since there is both a 'Goblin alphabet' and an Orc one... However, you could be correct.


That's the first time I've heard (or read) about either a Goblin or an Orc alphabet. The inscription on the One Ring was in Elvish script, IIRC, though in the Black Speech. Where did you find this information about the existence of such alphabets?


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## Ent (Aug 16, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> Not surprising, since the Elves also have different alphabets, yet they are all Elves.



And of the Hobbits, there are 3 distinct 'strains' as it were... different sizes, heights, general appearance, and other development of physical features...


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 16, 2022)

Very interesting. I wasn't sure on this. Thank you for the clarity.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 16, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Very interesting. I wasn't sure on this. Thank you for the clarity.


_It seems indeed, that I was partially correct._


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 16, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> _It seems indeed, that I was partially correct._


Yes. Hannon-le, @Vilisse !


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 16, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Yes. Hannon-le, @Vilisse !


_Asahanya!_


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## Elthir (Aug 16, 2022)

Another text of note is _Of the Finding of the Ring_ in the Prologue to The Fellowship (of the Ring), where Bilbo's party from _The Hobbit_ *"was assailed by Orcs in a high pass of the Misty Mountains as they went towards Wilderland"*. It also notes that Bilbo was lost for a while in the black* "orc-mines"* deep under the mountains.

That said, when Tolkien wrote _The Hobbit _(*pre*-third edition of the 1960s), I think there was at least a distinction between the two words. And in any case, note the seeming distinction in the drafts for _The Lord of the Rings_: Christopher Tolkien comments: *"At this stage it seems that 'Orcs' are to be regarded as a more formidable kind of 'Goblin'; so in the preliminary sketch for 'The Mines of Moria' Gandalf says 'there are goblins -- of very evil kind, larger than usual, real orcs." *

This was revised to: *"There are goblins: very many of them,"** he said. "Evil they look and large: veritable Orcs"* further revised to *"Evil they look and large: black Orcs"*

. . . *revised again* to (*final published form*): *"There are Orcs, very many of them. And some are large and evil: black Uruks of Mordor." *

And under Tolkien's translation conceit, the ultimate scenario is simply.

*Orc* actual Westron word (actually spoken in Frodo's day)
*Orch* Sindarin word (again, actually spoken in Frodo's day)
*Uruk* Black Speech (spoken "back then") and came to refer to "great soldier orcs" compared to . . .
*Snaga* "slave" used for lesser kinds

But of course, no one spoke English back when Frodo was alive; and *"goblin"* is an English word, sometimes (or "a lot" in _The Hobbit_ itself) used as a translation of the Common Speech word Orc (and other orc-words, if desired).

There are different kinds of dogs, but they are all dogs. There are different kinds of orcs, but they are all orcs . . .

. . . and if I translated that last sentence* entirely into English*: "There are different kinds of goblins, but they are all goblins."

Sorry, I tend to ramble on this subject!


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## Radaghast (Aug 16, 2022)

Today's exhibit:



> Why did the Fellowship put the One Ring on Frodo so he felt its malevolent effects rather than in a cart or on a dog where it wouldn’t affect anybody?


😑
A cart? A dog? 😐😆 Why a dog in particular? Why not Bill the Pony? Did this person read the book?


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## Elthir (Aug 16, 2022)

Why not put the One inside a yegg and gently lay it into Mount Doom?

Uh oh. Another yegg reference.


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## Olorgando (Aug 16, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> Today's exhibit:
> 
> 
> 😑
> A cart? A dog? 😐😆 Why a dog in particular? Why not Bill the Pony? Did this person read the book?


Since you do seem to spend some time on these sites, I have a question (kind of derived from my first snarling reply here):

Do you have the impression that a majority of those asking such questions are basing their experience (solely) on PJ's films?

Another group could conceivably be the casual readers of LoTR, who don't feel the urge that most of us probably have felt to learn more about JRRT's legendarium. Maybe some even decided to give the appendices a pass ...

There is so much in the book that I know I discovered new things practically every time I read it - some things I probably simply forgot from earlier readings. There are also so many fine points contained in the book; some have only dawned on me after reading the secondary literature, i.e. Shippey, Flieger, Rateliff, Hostetter etc. etc. etc. ... and then re-reading LoTR again.

The question might be if the people you discuss with, or get into arguments with, are at all *interested* in such fine points.


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## Radaghast (Aug 16, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> Since you do seem to spend some time on these sites, I have a question (kind of derived from my first snarling reply here):
> 
> Do you have the impression that a majority of those asking such questions are basing their experience (solely) on PJ's films?


Yes, very much so.



Olorgando said:


> The question might be if the people you discuss with, or get into arguments with, are at all *interested* in such fine points.


Not too sure about that but sometimes a question will lead me to actually question the book and reexamine the text. For example, there was a question asking something along the lines of why Sam didn't suspect Gollum's desire for the Ring. I didn't remember that (didn't actually know what the question was referring to) and assumed the questioner was mistaken but I checked the passage and to my surprise Sam's first impression was that Gollum was following the hobbits to eat them. I thought that odd and still do. But it's kid of amazing how the mind can sometimes gloss over certain details, both good and questionable, and only pick them up later or when someone else points them out.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 16, 2022)

Sam's attitude may well stem from no doubt having heard, as a lad, Bilbo's story of escaping being eaten by Gollum -- knowing Bilbo, he probably heard it many times. 😀


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## Olorgando (Aug 16, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> ... but I checked the passage and to my surprise Sam's first impression was that Gollum was following the hobbits to eat them. ...





Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Sam's attitude may well stem from no doubt having heard, as a lad, Bilbo's story of escaping being eaten by Gollum -- knowing Bilbo, he probably heard it many times. 😀


S-eS suggests a plausible scenario for Sam's *first* impression (this would have been when they were still in the Emyn Muil?); and Sam simply did not understand the One Ring (Frodo did). But that also changed after Sam had been Ring-bearer near and in the Tower of Cirith Ungol. Note that in the last confrontation between Sam and Gollum on the slopes of Mount Doom, Sam could have easily killed the by then totally wretched and emaciated Gollum - but like Bilbo and Frodo before him, spares Gollum's life. Ultimately for the good of the quest, achieving the One Ring's destruction.
Bilbo, Frodo, Sam ... perhaps third time really paid for all ...


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## Radaghast (Aug 16, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> S-eS suggests a plausible scenario for Sam's *first* impression (this would have been when they were still in the Emyn Muil?); and Sam simply did not understand the One Ring (Frodo did). But that also changed after Sam had been Ring-bearer near and in the Tower of Cirith Ungol. Note that in the last confrontation between Sam and Gollum on the slopes of Mount Doom, Sam could have easily killed the by then totally wretched and emaciated Gollum - but like Bilbo and Frodo before him, spares Gollum's life. Ultimately for the good of the quest, achieving the One Ring's destruction.
> Bilbo, Frodo, Sam ... perhaps third time really paid for all ...


It's after or around the Dead Marshes. The point SES makes is a fair one, though Sam's thinking still seems odd to me, considering he was present at the Council of Elrond and witnessed whole scene between Frodo and Gollum in the Emyn Muil where the latter swears on the "Precious". Here's the passage:



> Sam had lain still, fascinated by this debate, but watching every move that Gollum made from under his half-closed eye-lids. To his simple mind ordinary hunger, the desire to eat hobbits, had seemed the chief danger in Gollum. He realized now that it was not so: Gollum was feeling the terrible call of the Ring.


- "The Passage of the Marshes"


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 16, 2022)

Yes, Sam had been aware of the importance of the Ring since his "eavesdropping" at Bag End, and his experiences since then would only have reinforced that, but my impression is that he had difficulty connecting so great a matter, associated as it was with wizards, Elves, and kings, to such a small and wretched creature as Gollum, whose own talk and actions seemed to confirm his mental image of him.


> 'Not a bird!' said Sam mournfully.





> 'No, no birds,' said Gollum. 'Nice birds!' He licked his teeth. 'No birds here. There are snakeses, worms especially, things in the pools. Lots of things, lots of nasty things. No birds,' he ended sadly. Sam looked a him with distaste.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 16, 2022)

Of course, this may just be hindsight on my part. 😄


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 17, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Sam's attitude may well stem from no doubt having heard, as a lad, Bilbo's story of escaping being eaten by Gollum -- knowing Bilbo, he probably heard it many times. 😀


This is so true. Bilbo would put fear of Gollum into any mind with those stories!


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## Elthir (Aug 17, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> That's the first time I've heard (or read) about either a Goblin or an Orc alphabet. The inscription on the One Ring was in Elvish script, IIRC, though in the Black Speech. Where did you [Elbereth Vala Varda] find this information about the existence of such alphabets?



When I read "goblin alphabet" I think of that used by* Karhu* (North Polar Bear) in the _Father Christmas Letters_, which is: (Commentary by *Arden Smith* from the *Tolkien Estate website*): *" . . . quite different from Tolkien’s other invented alphabets. Supposedly based on goblin cave-drawings, it consists mainly of humanoid stick figures. It is essentially alphabetic, but contains a number of characters representing diphthongs and common consonant combinations."*

Anyway, for the world of Middle-earth, it is said (Appendix F) that the _Cirth_ became known to the goblins, who altered them to suit their purposes, according to their skill or lack of it.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 17, 2022)

Elthir said:


> Anyway, for the world of Middle-earth, it is said (Appendix F) that the _Cirth_ became known to the goblins, who altered them to suit their purposes, according to their skill or lack of it.


It was _Cirth _that I meant to speak of. Sorry for the confusion.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 17, 2022)

Moving on to more stuff from Reddit-- and, I guess, Twitter:


__
https://www.reddit.com/r/lotr/comments/wq8i85


Have fun.


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## Radaghast (Aug 17, 2022)

From a letter (#27) to the Houghton Mifflin Company (March or April 1938), in regard to hobbits, Bilbo in particular:


> I picture a fairly human figure, not a kind of ‘fairy’ rabbit as some of my British reviewers seem to fancy: fattish in the stomach, shortish in the leg. A round, jovial face; ears only slightly pointed and ‘elvish’; hair short and curling (brown). The feet from the ankles down, covered with brown hairy fur. Clothing: green velvet breeches; red or yellow waistcoat; brown or green jacket; gold (or brass) buttons; a dark green hood and cloak (belonging to a dwarf).


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 17, 2022)

I was going to cite that same letter. Well done.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 17, 2022)

Yeah, it's cited a couple of times in the Reddit thread, along with citations of the "leaf-shaped ears of Elves.

Not _everyone _on Reddit is an idiot. 😄


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## Radaghast (Aug 17, 2022)

I think there might also be a line somewhere which says something about elves' ears being leaf-shaped.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 17, 2022)

Yes, in HoME. You can find it in the thread.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 17, 2022)

Cool. I will have to check that part out. 

Glad that not _all _of Reddit is just people with no clue about Tolkien.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 18, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Glad that not _all _of Reddit is just people with no clue about Tolkien.


I am glad also, yet there are those who think that Manwe made the wrong choice in freeing Melkor from Mandos - I disagree: nauva i nauva.

(Can't believe there are Reddit threads where they actually say r/ManweDidEverythingWrong, because he didn't. Surely, the Grace of the Valar is not with them... better to stay away from them...  )


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## Ealdwyn (Aug 18, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> Can't believe there are Reddit threads where they actually say r/ManweDidEverythingWrong, because he didn't.


But did he do enough? I mean, the Valar (with the exception of Ulmo) pretty much abandoned Beleriand until the War of Wrath


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 18, 2022)

My favorite dude!


In my own head-canon, it's his residual influence that makes the Nazgul afraid of the waters in Middle-earth.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 18, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> But did he do enough? I mean, the Valar (with the exception of Ulmo) pretty much abandoned Beleriand until the War of Wrath


_The Valar do not intervene unless 'tis deemed absolutely necessary._


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## Elthir (Aug 18, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> I think there might also be a line somewhere which says something about elves' ears being leaf-shaped.



Indeed, this description includes that the Quendian ears were more pointed than humans ears.

*But* . . . as with the *goblin/orc** matter . . . *chronology*. I've no doubt that *at one point* (pun always intended) in his life, Tolkien imagined that the Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than human ears.

And that at one point in his life, Tolkien also imagined that grown Elves were roughly the size of human children (as general as that is)! Or that at one point in his life (and for decades and decades), Tolkien imagined that Elves reincarnated by being born again as Elf babies.

And at one point in his life, many years after the letter about Hobbit ears and "elvish" ears, and many years after his description of Quendian ears in the linguistic document called Etymologies which looks at *Eldarin bases and Eldarin words* (the _more pointed and leaf-shaped_ description you referred to), and decades after his drawing of Beleg and Gwindor (*if* anyone thinks that that particular picture solves the matter, that is) . . .

. . . Tolkien wrote yet another, *post-Lord of the Rings *description which included information about *bases and Elvish words. *A description that included an updated look at the bases and Elvish words that had long ago appeared in Etymologies, and that had resulted in the oft-quoted example you refer to.

Back in the abandoned *Etymologies*, the bases had been LAS1 and LAS2. In the updated version,
the bases are LAS and SLAS . . . and what did this commentary (from Tolkien's *Word, Phrases and Passages, or WPP*) have to say, if anything (or if anything definitive), about Elvish ears?

*Or* was this just a post to ramble more about . . .

**Goblins/Orcs!

____________________*

Incidentally, I think Helge Fauskanger (Ardalambion) "needs" to add the word _orc_ to his Westron wordlist!

Anyway, the confusions between _orc_ and _goblin_ isn't helped by Jackson's films, nor even by noted Tolkien scholar Tom Shippey (with whom I disagree with regarding his particular conclusion, and who also relies on an incorrect secondary source to draw his conclusions in the first place) . . .

. . . and arguably, it's not helped very much by JRRT himself until we get to the later 1960s!

For example, for the second edition of _The Hobbit_, Tolkien actually added a description that at least seems to distinguish an orc from a goblin in some way or measure!

Then there's the note that _orc_ appears to be an actual word used by the Rohirrim (*Appendix F part I*) -- when we also know that JRRT used Ancient English to "translate" (resemble) a lot of the actual language of the Rohirrim (*Appendix F Part II*) -- noting that (*externally speaking now*) Tolkien lifted the word orc from Old English forms!

In shorter, according to Appendix F *part II* at least, and if you know your Old English, the word orc looks like a translation (using Old English instead of English "goblin")!

And yet again it looks like a translation in _Quendi And Eldar_, at text dated to *1959-1960* -- written well after _The Lord of the Rings_ was published -- which reads:_ "Note: The word used in translation of Q urko, S orch is Orc. But that is because of the similarity of the ancient English word orc, "evil spirit or bogey", to the Elvish words."_

That said, one can still use the Westron/Rohirric word *orc* to translate the Elvish words! And if so, it would be very, very similar to the ancient English word orc!



In short, I say focus not on these things for JRRT's ultimate answer: rather focus on publication by the author-- plus chronology (late ideas) -- then you simply_ translate_ any examples from _The Hobbit_ that _appear_ to be saying something else!

Or, better yet, simply don't read this post!


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## Ent (Aug 18, 2022)

Elthir said:


> Or, better yet, simply don't read this post!



he says, after it's already too late..!😁


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 18, 2022)




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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 18, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> My favorite dude!
> View attachment 15029
> 
> In my own head-canon, it's his residual influence that makes the Nazgul afraid of the waters in Middle-earth.


Interesting thought. You may be right. The Nazgul did fear ALL the water..


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## Ent (Aug 18, 2022)

@Elthir - I must confess. 
Few can leap and bound, scale the cliffs and descend the crevasses, tie change to change across time, and draw a thread between all as do you.

Your input is as the tides, swelling, crashing, smoothing, soothing, moving the beaches sands with every ebb and flow.

And yet - as the water's work is done, still the sands remain. Moved a little, perhaps. What was here is now there, yet what was elsewhere is now here.

Always instructive, ever entertaining... and a joy to receive.

I for one always glean something from your offerings.
And from this last I have learned the most.

"Start at the end."

(don't take this wrong - i truly enjoy and glean from your sharing. I just couldn't restrain myself here...😁)


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## Elthir (Aug 18, 2022)

LOL *S-eS*!

And speaking of dealing with it. Tolkien was forced to deal with any names or Elvish words that he had already published.

Including* lassi* "leaves" (LAS) and *Amon Lhaw* "Hill of Hearing, Hill of . . . ears!" (SLAS)

But does this _necessarily_ mean . . .


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## Elthir (Aug 18, 2022)

Oh. Thank you *Well-aged Enting*. I didn't see that at first!

🐾


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 18, 2022)

Elthir said:


> But does this _necessarily_ mean . . .


Sure -- why not.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 18, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Sure -- why not.
> View attachment 15032


Wait... But it isn't an Elf Ear.....


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## Ent (Aug 18, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Wait... But it isn't an Elf Ear.....



be happy it's not an egg.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 18, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> be happy it's not an egg.


That is fair, and so true... I am.


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## Elthir (Aug 18, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Wait... But it isn't an Elf Ear.....



Or is it


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 18, 2022)

And now it seems we have returned to the original question. Splendid.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 18, 2022)

I thought Amon Lhaw was created by Gondor. Correct me if I'm wrong. 

But if you insist. . .


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 18, 2022)

No-no.. That is alright... But it is too late....


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 18, 2022)

Having gone this far, I might as well do the other one.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 18, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Having gone this far, I might as well do the other one.
> View attachment 15034


Well, we are getting off-topic.

_Again._


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 18, 2022)

What? I'm not second-guessing?

I'd at least argue that I'm misunderstanding!


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 18, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> What? I'm not second-guessing?
> 
> I'd at least argue that I'm misunderstanding!


They looked like something that I wouldn't want to see or hear of again, that's why...


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 18, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> What? I'm not second-guessing?
> 
> I'd at least argue that I'm misunderstanding!


You are *certainly *misunderstanding. We must be on topic... I think...


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 18, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> You are *certainly *misunderstanding. We must be on topic... I think...


In which case, I'm misunderstanding...I think...for I thought we were not...


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 18, 2022)

Well, I would say that "Amon Lhaw" Hill of Hearing, means a Hill with literal ears... So I think it is eminent that he is misunderstanding... Thus on topic.


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## Elthir (Aug 18, 2022)

*My short answer!*

A) Tolkien does not describe Elven ears in anything _he_ published.

B) I think Tolkien went from "biguous" to *am*biguous -- ultimately leafing it up to the reader, despite certain "hints" in the linguistic scenario (some words of which were published).

To me, this would be a very Tolkienian "solution" . . . leafing it to the linguists to wonder, but don't (as he once did) say anything definitively!

* - - - - - - - - - -

My answer gets longer!*

These opinions are based on the following, possibly boring-to-some, material, but I think it's good to look at the actual texts in question.

Regarding Etymologies, also keep in mind that LAS1 along with LAS2 is not, in itself, a unique example of bases. For instance: KHAL1 "(small) fish" and KHAL2 "uplift", or LAK1 "swallow" (from which derives the Q. word _lanko_ "throat"), and LAK2 "swift" from which derives Q._ larka_ "swift, rapid".

And another: LUG1 "heavy" (note _Mablung_ in this scenario), and LUG2 "blue" . . . the general point here being, are blue things _necessarily_ related to "heavy" things in some way, in the Eldarin mind?

Also, Etymologies was abandoned, and the internal historical linguistic scenario_ radically_ revised for JRRT's later Middle-earth, but I'm using these to make a point that LAS1 and LAS2 is not itself unique.

*And if you're having trouble sleeping, continue . . . 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -*
From Etymologies:

LAS1- *lasse leaf: Q lasse, N lhass; Q lasselanta leaf-fall, autumn, N lhasbelin (*lassekwéne), cf. Q Narquelion [KWEL]. Lhasgalen Greenleaf (Gnome name of Laurelin). (Some think this is related to the next and *lassê ear. *The Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than Human)*.

LAS2- 'listen'. N lhaw "ears" (of one person), (. . .)
*- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -*


Etymologies is generally dated to the mid to later 1930s, early 1940s. In HOME the word Human appears with a question mark, but the word has since been deciphered more definitively as Human.

And years later, post-publication of _The Lord of the Rings_ (after 1955) in _Words, Phrases and Passages,_ Tolkien writes the following entry:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Words, Phrases, Passages, Parma Eldalamberon 17

"Q lasse "leaf" (S las); pl. lassi (S lais). It is only applied to certain kinds of leaves, especially those of trees, and would not e.g. be used of leaf of a hyacinth (linque). It is thus possibly related to LAS "listen", and S-LAS stem of Elvish words for "ear"; Q hlas, dual hlaru. Sindarin dual lhaw, singular lhewig."

lasse "leaf".
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

So, what to make of this? Where has the statement that I put in bold (from Etymologies) gone?

Surely opinions will vary, but in my opinion we've gone from: _"some think"_ LAS1 and LAS2 are related because of the stated fact that Quendian ears are more pointed and leaf-shaped than human ears ----- to ----- (years later): Q. lasse "leaf" _"is thus possibly related_ to LAS "listen", and S-LAS . . ." . . .
*and that's it.*

In other words [pre-Lord of the Rings and early draft writing]: early-ish idea: some thought there was a relationship because of an observable, physical fact (Etymologies) ----- to ----- [post-Lord of the Rings publication]: the author of this text (Tolkien as translator?) again notes there is a possible relationship here, *but no longer states the observable fact based on a comparison of the Quendi to Humans.*

Thus, as I say above, I think it's arguable that Tolkien himself, or some later internal redactor possibly, is feigning ignorance of knowing (for certain anyway) about "true" Elvish ears, while allowing for the implied possibility.

Anyway, we know the Quendi didn't have wings! See Appendix F


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## Radaghast (Aug 18, 2022)

Elthir said:


> *My short answer!*


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 18, 2022)

Radaghast said:


>


Indeed - it didn't seem that short to me, overall.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 18, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> Indeed - it didn't seem that short to me, overall.


Neither did it to me...


----------



## Elthir (Aug 18, 2022)

The short answer is part one of three parts.

If I may note the dotted lines and "grey bolding" of certain sections


----------



## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 18, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Neither did it to me...


His posts are *never* short...he just tarries Time, I must say. Yet Time would not wait for him...metaphysics doesn't work like that!


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 18, 2022)

I see....


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 18, 2022)

Elthir said:


> The short answer is part one of three parts


Yes, but still...


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 18, 2022)

I'm hoping for an even longer answer!


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 18, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I'm hoping for an even longer answer!


As long as the Time it takes to wait till the End of All Things? I hope not...


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## Elthir (Aug 18, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I'm hoping for an even longer answer!



I could _scramble_ fast to work the word "yegg" into that last answer . . . which would help by one word!

But I need a nap.


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## Elthir (Aug 18, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> Yes, but still...



LOL!


----------



## Radaghast (Aug 18, 2022)

Elthir said:


> The short answer is part one of three parts.
> 
> If I may note the dotted lines and "grey bolding" of certain sections


Ah, gotcha.


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## Elthir (Aug 18, 2022)

The third part especially can be used as a sleep aid.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 18, 2022)

Elthir said:


> The third part especially can be used as a sleep aid.


*Irmo*: Am I a joke to you?


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 18, 2022)

Elthir said:


> The third part especially can be used as a sleep aid.


Truly?


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## Radaghast (Aug 18, 2022)

Elthir said:


> The third part especially can be used as a sleep aid.


Noted.


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## Elthir (Aug 18, 2022)

*Ando* here (I know Gando misses me):

Just to let you know, Elthir is napping.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 18, 2022)

I see... I guess a cat-nap could help you...


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## Olorgando (Aug 18, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> Elthir said:
> 
> 
> > *My short answer!*


Rada, you must be familiar with some of Alcuin's short answers - usually prefaced by the comment "I really don't have time now ..." 😁


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 18, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> Rada, you must be familiar with some of Alcuin's short answers - usually prefaced by the comment "I really don't have time now ..." 😁


This is SO true.


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## Radaghast (Aug 22, 2022)

More silly nonsense courtesy of Quora:


> Why does Eru did not add to Gandalf White's powers when he resurrected him but merely removing the restrictions of the Valar? Why did he not give him additional powers that can withstand the power of Sauron himself in protecting people?


🙄
From the same batch of questions (in my notifications):


> Why didn't the elves (especially Legolas or Glorfindal) take the ring to Mount Doom to destroy it?


😑


----------



## Gospodar prstenova (Aug 26, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> This is not another "Why didn't they use the Eagles" thread though that topic is briefly discussed here. This is more a thread examining the seemingly constant stream of "Why didn't..." questions on sites like Reddit and Quora. The Eagle-related ones. Ones that ask why the Valar don't intercede. Etc.
> 
> Questions about the Eagles and the Valar might be excusable (if not valid) if the askers don't look into the logistics of the story or the background of the writing of the book or, of course, the need to create an engaging story (and, truthfully, how many works of fiction are flawless and without contrivance?). Almost needless to say, Tolkien did not set out to write a sequel to _The Hobbit_ of his own volition, but acquiescing to publisher and public request, he came up with _The Lord of the Rings_. In doing so, in choosing Bilbo's ring as the genesis of the idea that he would develop, he was perhaps operating under certain constraints. So, whatever flaws one might perceive in the work, I think one must consider the circumstances under which it was composed. If Tolkien had conceived of the idea of the Rings of Power from the start on his own (meaning without the demand for a follow-up to TH) we probably would have had something very different, and one possibly even better than what we were given. And what we got is fairly magnificent, especially considering the circumstances.
> 
> ...


First, sorry for my english, it is not my maternal language. This is how i see it :
Sauron made the one ring pouring his malice, his strong will and evil soul into the ring. So , the ring is basically a entity, with a will of its own. Ring is not a source of power, or a weapon. It changes everyone, leaving them with no humanity or any moral values. As Aragorn said at the Council of Elrond : "The ring answers to Sauron alone. It has no other master." Because of its evil nature ,it only corrupts people, giving them a false sense of having power. The Ring is almost powerless in hands of someone WHO DOESN'T WANT POWER . Like the Hobbits. So, the question " Why someone didnt try to use the ring against Sauron - is not valid . If any Maiar or Valar would took the ring they would not destroy it . And Sauron will find the ring in hands of someone powerfull much quicker.


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## Ent (Aug 26, 2022)

Gospodar prstenova said:


> First, sorry for my english, it is not my maternal language.



Welcome aboard Gospodar prstenova.
Your English is fine. No apologies needed. Even those of us for whom English IS our first language need a good deal of help..!! 😁
Hope you find a good home here among us, and thank you for sharing your thoughts.
We look forward to more.


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## Radaghast (Aug 31, 2022)

Stupid Tolkien question of the week:


> Why did Gandalf like the hobbits when most of the rest of Middle Earth thought they were lame?


This is apparently because Boromir calls hobbits "little ones" in the FotR movie and that they didn't get any Rings of Power


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## Olorgando (Aug 31, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> Stupid Tolkien question of the week:
> 
> 
> > Why did Gandalf like the hobbits when most of the rest of Middle Earth thought they were lame?
> ...


_*groan*_
Most of the rest of M-e didn't even know of their existence, even in Gondor only "northern legends", Faramir in chapter IV "The Siege of Gondor" in Book 5 in RoTK. Aragorn and his northern rangers knew them, and the odd Elf and Dwarf in Eriador perhaps passed through the Shire, and that would be it.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 31, 2022)

That reminds me -- seen in comments in various different media concerned with RoP:

"Why do they have hobbits? Hobbits didn't even exist until the Third Age!"

For me, that's up there with "Orcs aren't born; they're grown in mud! It's right there in the movies."


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## Erestor Arcamen (Aug 31, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> That reminds me -- seen in comments in various different media concerned with RoP:
> 
> "Why do they have hobbits? Hobbits didn't even exist until the Third Age!"
> 
> For me, that's up there with "Orcs aren't born; they're grown in mud! It's right there in the movies."


Nvm 😋


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 31, 2022)

He did, actually. Admittedly, he didn't write about orc reproduction in LOTR. -- but the Prologue makes clear hobbits didn't "enter history" until the T.A., which a far cry from "didn't exist".


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## Erestor Arcamen (Aug 31, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> He did, actually.


Prior to the third age?

Edit: you're right, as usual



> Prologue: Concerning Hobbits:
> 
> It is plain indeed that in spite of later estrangement Hobbits are relatives of ours: far nearer to us than Elves, or even than Dwarves. Of old they spoke the languages of Men, after their own fashion, and liked and disliked much the same things as Men did. But what exactly our relationship is can no longer be discovered. The beginning of Hobbits lies far back in the Elder Days that are now lost and forgotten.


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## ZehnWaters (Aug 31, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> That reminds me -- seen in comments in various different media concerned with RoP:
> 
> "Why do they have hobbits? Hobbits didn't even exist until the Third Age!"


I suppose in any form of history we don't see them until the Third Age. If they're going to show up in this story it DOES kind of undermine that since they would need to explain how this Nori doesn't get mentioned ANYWHERE to the point no other, known, culture mentions them for another 1000+ years.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 31, 2022)

We'll have to see how -- or if -- they handle that.

But it still doesn't excuse "true fan" critics getting it wrong-- particularly the more self-righteous ones.


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## Radaghast (Aug 31, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> He did, actually. Admittedly, he didn't write about orc reproduction in LOTR. -- but the Prologue makes clear hobbits didn't "enter history" until the T.A., which a far cry from "didn't exist".



Yes, Merry sums it all up rather neatly to Treebeard:


> ‘We always seem to have got left out of the old lists, and the old stories,’ said Merry. ‘Yet we’ve been about for quite a long time. We’re hobbits.’



"Treebeard"
I believe this is code for, "I couldn't be bothered to go back to those old stories and insert hobbits into them, what are you, crazy?"


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 31, 2022)

That's about right.

Also; Hobbits just weren't very adventurous, so they would not be in lore and tales of Elves, Men, Dwarves, Ents, because they never journeyed that far. How obscure it was that Bilbo left, is proof of that.


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## Ugluk (Sep 2, 2022)

Eljorahir said:


> *Visitor:* "How can it be bigger on the inside than it is on the outside?!?!
> *Doctor:* "Because it's dimensionally transcendental."
> *Visitor:* "What does that mean?"
> *Doctor*: "It means it's bigger on the inside than it is on the outside! Stop bothering me with silly questions."


"Finally it's my turn. 

My entire understanding of physical space has been transformed! Three-dimensional Euclidean geometry has been torn up, thrown in the air and snogged to death! My grasp of the universal constants of physical reality has been changed... forever....!

Sorry, I've always wanted to see that done properly."


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## Eljorahir (Sep 2, 2022)

Ugluk said:


> "Finally it's my turn.
> 
> My entire understanding of physical space has been transformed! Three-dimensional Euclidean geometry has been torn up, thrown in the air and snogged to death! My grasp of the universal constants of physical reality has been changed... forever....!
> 
> Sorry, I've always wanted to see that done properly."


I don't want to derail this thread again into a Doctor Who fan club reunion. However, I have to ask: Is this a quote from a character in an old episode?


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 2, 2022)

I saw a friend on Twitter mention that it'd make more sense for the female lead to be Celebrían than Galadriel and....that actually makes a lot of sense.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 2, 2022)

That actually does... Plus, I have always liked the character of Celebrian. She is amazing.


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## Ugluk (Sep 2, 2022)

Eljorahir said:


> I don't want to derail this thread again into a Doctor Who fan club reunion. However, I have to ask: Is this a quote from a character in an old episode?


It's the 2015 Christmas special "The husbands of river song" where the doctor is invited into the Tardis by his wife who does not recognise his current regeneration Peter Capaldi) saying "prepare yourself for a shock".


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## Eljorahir (Sep 2, 2022)

Ugluk said:


> It's the 2015 Christmas special "The husbands of river song" where the doctor is invited into the Tardis by his wife who does not recognise his current regeneration Peter Capaldi) saying "prepare yourself for a shock".


Thanks. Found it on YouTube. Never saw that one before. It was awesome!


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## Ugluk (Sep 2, 2022)

Eljorahir said:


> Thanks. Found it on YouTube. Never saw that one before. It was awesome!


The scene later when she realises who he is both awesome and lovely.


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## Ealdwyn (Sep 3, 2022)

Ugluk said:


> The scene later when she realises who he is both awesome and lovely.


Fantastic episode. The chemistry between them is amazing. 

I'm glad to see some DW geeks on board.


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## Radaghast (Sep 3, 2022)

> Is it certain Durin's Bane fled the sinking of Beleriand/War of Wrath?


Uh... yeah, because the text says so 😕



> Isn't it possible he was one of those who fled Utumno post War of Powers, "roamed in the waste places of the world," and never answered Melkor's call to fight off Ungoliant?


The quote this cites doesn't even mention Balrogs 🙄



> Why didn't Frodo and the Hobbits kill and eat Shadowfax when they were running out of food at Helm's Deep?



You might think this was a joke question (even if it's not funny). I certainly did and said as much. But the asker replied:



> I didn’t know [the hobbits weren't at Helm's Deep]. I had a feeling that maybe they weren’t but I didn’t bother researching. Horse meat is bad but it will do in a pinch.









How does this person know anything about LoR at all if he doesn't know such basic stuff? 😖


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 6, 2022)

> 'But great store of food, and many beasts and their fodder, have also been gathered there.'


Of course, I wouldn't expect someone who thought the hobbits were there to have read that. 😣


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## Ugluk (Sep 6, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> You might think this was a joke question (even if it's not funny). I certainly did and said as much. But the asker replied:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Clearly the read they book or watched the films but have no comprehension. There are just not enough eye rolls in the known universe to encompass these questions.


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## Radaghast (Sep 8, 2022)

> Would Faramir have been a better choice than his brother Boromir for the Fellowship of the Ring?



So that the Quest could be _more_ successful than it is? 🤨

Also, it's noteworthy that Boromir's temptation for the Ring, which Faramir doesn't have, is basically what saves the Quest on Amon Hen.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 8, 2022)

True, but we don't know how the quest might have been affected by his presence. For instance, he apparently had more experience on the Eastern Shore, and was was more used, by experience and temperament, to secretive missions than Boromir was. My guess is that he would have accompanied Frodo. He almost certainly wouldn't have tried to talk him into taking it to Gondor.

And I'll note that the "voice" seems to have thought he'd be the better choice.


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## Radaghast (Sep 8, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> True, but we don't know how the quest might have been affected by his presence. For instance, he apparently had more experience on the Eastern Shore, and was was more used, by experience and temperament, to secretive missions than Boromir was. My guess is that he would have accompanied Frodo. He almost certainly wouldn't have tried to talk him into taking it to Gondor.
> 
> And I'll not that the "voice" seems to have thought he'd be the better choice.


As wise as Faramir is, I doubt he'd be able to sneak into Mordor as the Hobbits end up doing. Also, Amon Hen is the key to my argument. Assuming everything else goes the same until the point when the orcs attack. I don't see any reason why Frodo would break off on his own at this point.

Also, Boromir plays a key role in getting the Company down from Caradhras. I don't think Faramir is nearly as physically strong as his brother.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 8, 2022)

Well, we can only speculate about what might have happened, but it seems clear from the text that whoever sent the dream intended Faramir to go to Rivendell.


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## Eljorahir (Sep 8, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Well, we can only speculate about what might have happened, but it seems clear from the text that whoever sent the dream intended Faramir to go to Rivendell.


The part about the dream which causes Boromir to seek Rivendell always leaves me a bit uncertain. Boromir tells The Council:
_*"...a dream came to my brother in a troubled sleep; and afterwards a like dream came oft to him again, and once to me."*_

So, according to Boromir, Faramir had the dream multiple times, and Boromir had the same dream only once. 

Why would a prophetic dream be sent to one brother multiple times and the other brother only once? My feeling (with uncertainty) is that Boromir never really had the dream at all. He only heard the dream described to him by Faramir. Then, he somehow (due to his pride) convinced himself that he also had the same dream. Then, again due to his pride, he took upon himself the mission that was actually meant for Faramir?

I'll be interested to hear if anyone can shed any light on this for me.


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## Radaghast (Sep 8, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Well, we can only speculate about what might have happened, but it seems clear from the text that whoever sent the dream intended Faramir to go to Rivendell.


Sure, Tolkien could write a different scenario where Faramir is the one who joins the Fellowship, and the Quest still successful, but it would be a different story entirely, and probably one not as satisfying; and there's a character study of each brother that's better realized as it is than it otherwise would have been.

Also, even if Tolkien writes Faramir into the Fellowship rather than Boromir, I'm still not sure how that would be _better_, unless it means Boromir ends up not dying, but even that's not a given.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 9, 2022)

Eljorahir said:


> The part about the dream which causes Boromir to seek Rivendell always leaves me a bit uncertain. Boromir tells The Council:
> _*"...a dream came to my brother in a troubled sleep; and afterwards a like dream came oft to him again, and once to me."*_
> 
> So, according to Boromir, Faramir had the dream multiple times, and Boromir had the same dream only once.
> ...


As far as I know, Faramir himself didn't say anything about having the dream several times-- at least I haven't found a reference to it.

The words do play an important part in demonstrating Frodos bona fides to him, in the scene in Ithilien.

As far as taking on the mission to Rivendell, when Denethor twice expresses regret that Boromir, rather than Faramir, went, he is reproved, first by Gandalf:


> 'Faramir should have gone in his stead.'
> 'He would have gone,' said Gandalf. 'Be not unjust in your grief! Boromir claimed the errand and would not suffer any other to have it. He was a masterful man, and one to take what he desired.'


And later by Faramir:


> 'I would ask you, my father, why it was that I, not he, was in Ithilien. On one occasion at least your counsel has prevailed, not long ago. It was the Lord of the City that gave the errand to him.'


Given this, and what you say about Boromir's pride, it seems to me that we could expect any falsehood by him about the dream to be that he, rather than Faramir, was the one who had it "several times", so in this case, I believe we can take him at his word.

Faramir being a late -- and by the author unwanted -- entry into the story, I assume Boromir's words to the Council about his brother were retrofitted. There's probably a note by Christopher somewhere, but the chapter went through a number of tangled changes, and I'm too tired-- or lazy -- at the moment to try to track it down.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 9, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> Sure, Tolkien could write a different scenario where Faramir is the one who joins the Fellowship, and the Quest still successful, but it would be a different story entirely, and probably one not as satisfying; and there's a character study of each brother that's better realized as it is than it otherwise would have been.
> 
> Also, even if Tolkien writes Faramir into the Fellowship rather than Boromir, I'm still not sure how that would be _better_, unless it means Boromir ends up not dying, but even that's not a given.


I think we've been talking about different things here: I was was thinking about it in "in-story" terns. I agree with you that it makes a better story as it is. And, given what I mentioned above concerning Faramir's late appearance, I can absolutely guarantee Tolkien was not about to do a major rewrite! 😄

I did go and look at the Quora posts; most of the discussion seems fairly reasonable to me, both pro and con, for what they're worth.

Speaking of which, let's move on to another question I saw there! 😁

Did Boromir find the Fellowship of the Ring in Rivendell?

"Yes, but it wasn’t easy. The Hobbits all hid under benches or behind decorative topiary."


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## Olorgando (Sep 9, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Faramir being a late -- and by the author unwanted -- entry into the story, I assume Boromir's words to the Council about his brother were retrofitted. There's probably a note by Christopher somewhere, but the chapter went through a number of tangled changes, and I'm too tired-- or lazy -- at the moment to try to track it down.


This is the decisive external reason. By the time Faramir "appeared unbidden" to JRRT in Ithilien, Boromir's death and the splitting up of the Fellowship at Amon Hen / Rauros lad (long?) been written. And I think that Frodo and Sam going it alone to Mordor (and meeting Gollum) was a central point for JRRT (I don't remember enough of the 3.5 books of HoMe in which Christopher Tolkien described the "gestation" of LoTR to be entirely certain of this).

At any rate _*Boromir*_ at Henneth Annûn would have been disastrous. Something that PJ came close to describing in his mutilation of Faramir, having him take Frodo and Sam to Osgiliath for some addle-brained need for "character development". Which, as with the case of Merry and Pippin tricking the Ents to go near Isengard (PJ's forgery having them *reject* action against Saruman at the Entmoot), "development" seems to need under 59 seconds to be accomplished ...


----------



## Radaghast (Sep 9, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> At any rate _*Boromir*_ at Henneth Annûn would have been disastrous.



Yes, and it's curious (to put it mildly) that in the TTT movie the attack by the Nazgûl, and Frodo showing it the _danged_ _location of the Ring_, would be the thing that saves the Quest 🙄


----------



## plaporta (Sep 11, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> This is not another "Why didn't they use the Eagles" thread though that topic is briefly discussed here. This is more a thread examining the seemingly constant stream of "Why didn't..." questions on sites like Reddit and Quora. The Eagle-related ones. Ones that ask why the Valar don't intercede. Etc.
> 
> Questions about the Eagles and the Valar might be excusable (if not valid) if the askers don't look into the logistics of the story or the background of the writing of the book or, of course, the need to create an engaging story (and, truthfully, how many works of fiction are flawless and without contrivance?). Almost needless to say, Tolkien did not set out to write a sequel to _The Hobbit_ of his own volition, but acquiescing to publisher and public request, he came up with _The Lord of the Rings_. In doing so, in choosing Bilbo's ring as the genesis of the idea that he would develop, he was perhaps operating under certain constraints. So, whatever flaws one might perceive in the work, I think one must consider the circumstances under which it was composed. If Tolkien had conceived of the idea of the Rings of Power from the start on his own (meaning without the demand for a follow-up to TH) we probably would have had something very different, and one possibly even better than what we were given. And what we got is fairly magnificent, especially considering the circumstances.
> 
> ...


To me, the Ring needed to be in the hands of innocence. It needed to be with someone who was unspoiled by the world and its influences. Frodo was the epitome of innocense.


----------



## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Sep 11, 2022)

plaporta said:


> To me, the Ring needed to be in the hands of innocence. It needed to be with someone who was unspoiled by the world and its influences. Frodo was the epitome of innocense.


Indeed he was - yet even he was burdened greatly by the Ring at the end, so much that he had to sail to Valinóre for healing.


----------



## Radaghast (Sep 15, 2022)

From reddit this time (I'll just leave this here without further comment):



> Theory on why the ring could only be destroyed in Mt. Doom​
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Eljorahir (Sep 15, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> From reddit this time (I'll just leave this here without further comment):


Just for laughs:
The Phial of Galadriel had light of the same origin as a Silmaril (at least I think that's correct).
We know a Silmaril could burn the flesh of evil dudes like Morgoth and Carcharoth.
We know the ring contained much of Sauron's evil power.

What if Frodo had brought the Phial into contact with The Ring?!?!

Frodo might have been walking around the whole time with an instant ring smelter right in his pocket!


----------



## ZehnWaters (Sep 15, 2022)

Eljorahir said:


> The part about the dream which causes Boromir to seek Rivendell always leaves me a bit uncertain. Boromir tells The Council:
> _*"...a dream came to my brother in a troubled sleep; and afterwards a like dream came oft to him again, and once to me."*_
> 
> So, according to Boromir, Faramir had the dream multiple times, and Boromir had the same dream only once.
> ...


I always assumed Faramir was constrained from leaving by Denethor. Boromir would be less inclined to be constrained and it's possible once BOTH had visions Denethor let the one he trusted more leave.


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 15, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> At any rate _*Boromir*_ at Henneth Annûn would have been disastrous. Something that PJ came close to describing in his mutilation of Faramir, having him take Frodo and Sam to Osgiliath for some addle-brained need for "character development". Which, as with the case of Merry and Pippin tricking the Ents to go near Isengard (PJ's forgery having them *reject* action against Saruman at the Entmoot), "development" seems to need under 59 seconds to be accomplished ...


So many issues in The Two Towers film, and STILL that was the worst one.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 15, 2022)

Rereading the Faramir discussion here made me remember an old thread on the subject:








What if Faramir had gone instead of Boromir?


I'm not sure we can say for certain that he'd have not caved like his brother (Boromir held out a long time against the temptation of the Ring before trying to seize it. He was with Frodo for a month or so (maybe more, cannot recall how much time passed, but they left sometime in winter from...




www.thetolkienforum.com


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 15, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Rereading the Faramir discussion here made me remember an old thread on the subject:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I actually ran an RPG campaign with an alternate Fellowship and Faramir was one of the changes.
The full roster was:
Radagast, Glorfindel, Aragorn, Faramir, Odin (son of Ori), Frodo, Sam, Merry, Pippin, & Folco (played by my brother).


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 15, 2022)

And how did it work out?


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 15, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> And how did it work out?


*deep breath* Okay. So most of the story proceeds as the book. There are minor differences with who does and says what and what their motivations are. I will cover the major changes:
Things went roughly the same until they got to Moria. Glorfindel was the leader, in lieu of Gandalf. While in Moria Glorfindel caught Gollum while they were camped for the night. Gollum was tied up in Elven rope and Glorfindel was unsympathetic to his whining about how it burned. This proved less helpful when the constant complaining alerted the Orcs to their presence. Glorfindel confronted the Balrog on the Bridge but had his spear destroyed and was thrown to the far side. Radagast then sacrificed himself by destroying the bridge, with the Balrog on it, and falling into the pit.

They proceed to Lothlorien. Gollum's month long stay in Lothlorien is transformative and Frodo decides to take him with them. Here, again, much of the story proceeds as the original until Rauros. Frodo, having contemplated the effect the Ring had on Gollum, decides to proceed alone but is, of course, caught by Sam. Gollum rightly points out that they need his guidance and he goes as well. Merry and Pippin are taken by Uruk-Hai but the rest of the Fellowship remains in tact and no one dies (Glorfindel is the one ambushed but he'd been given a reforged Aiglos by Galadriel to replace his destroyed spear).

The Fellowship track the Uruk-Hai across the plains. Meanwhile Frodo, Sam, & Gollum make much better time through Emyn Muil and are two whole days ahead of the original story. In Fangorn, Aragorn, Odin, Glorfindel, Faramir, & Folco encounter Radagast the Green. It seems he fair slightly BETTER than Gandalf once he and the Balrog hit the underground lake as Radagast shape-shifted into a giant squid (he's a master of "shapes and hues" after all) and succeeding in keeping the Balrog extinguished in the water until their fight drew the attention of the Nameless Things that dwelt in the water. They attacked them both but Radagast shape-shifted into a small fish, escaped their grasp and notice, and made it to the shore. He waited for the Balrog who slew the creatures and then headed up the Endless Stair. Radagast followed and they emerged at the peak. The Balrog was exhausted from the constant fighting and climbing but Radagast was comparatively fresh. The Balrog was unable to reignite until late into the fight and so Radagast prevailed but was also slain (he was still much less powerful, or martial, than the Balrog). Like Gandalf he was sent back to aid in the fight.

Here things return to the main narrative. The healing of Théoden, of course, goes differently. Things really change once we get to Orthanc. Radagast's pleas hit differently than Gandalf's. They were sent from Valinor together, after all (at Yavanna's pleading), and Saruman was never jealous of Radagast. Saruman relents and places himself into Radagast's custody and hands over his Palantír. There's more to this than I'm going into but I don't have the space to lay it all out. Pippin looks into the Palantír and he, Radagast, and Saruman go to Minas Tirith.

Meanwhile, Frodo, Sam, and Gollum happen upon Rangers in Ithilien. Boromir (who had been out gaining news on the Ranger's status) wishes to take them back to Minas Tirith when he perceives they carry something of importance to the Enemy but Gollum assaults him and Frodo, Sam, and Gollum escape. They travel through Cirith Ungol safely and are uncaptured.

Pippin in Minas Tirith goes largely the same as the book save Denethor and Saruman verbally spar. Boromir is there but keeps silent about finding Frodo, Sam, and Gollum as he is embarrassed that they escaped but Saruman and Denethor perceive he is keeping information hidden.

Folco is taken in by the Grey Company (specifically Halbarad).

The Battle of Pelannor Fields proceeds largely as the book. Halbarad is saved by Folco. Saruman is the one who helps Pippin save the unconscious Boromir from Denethor's madness (Radagast was unable to keep Saruman in tow during the battle so he'd placed him under "house arrest"; Pippin went to Saruman first as Radagast had transformed into a Great Eagle and was engaging the Nazgûl; Saruman was not motivated by goodness but by a desire to regain his pride (and Denethor was acting like a fool)).

The march to Morannan is largely the same save there is no fight; the Ring is destroyed before the Mouth of Sauron can even speak.

In Mordor Frodo, Sam, and Gollum evade all detection and make it to Mount Doom. When Frodo refuses to destroy the Ring, Gollum is incensed at the betrayal of his master and attacks Frodo. They fight, Gollum bites off his finger, and then he falls into the lava. Frodo and Sam are rescued by Radagast in the form of a Great Eagle.

Things proceed as the book again until Gandalf arrives for the Coronation (he'd been up at Erebor during all of this, where his efforts saved many lives). Gandalf is surprised at Radagast's growth but before he can speak to Saruman, Radagast intervenes and states there's nothing more to be said: Saruman will return to Valinor as Radagast's detainee. After the coronation everyone returns home. Radagast sets sail immediately while Gandalf wraps up any loose ends. Boromir abdicates the role of steward to his brother (in shame of failing into temptation compared to his more valourous brother). His is assigned to Osgiliath and retains his role as commander of the armies. Gandalf, Glorfindel, Galadriel, Elrond, Frodo, & Bilbo set sail across the sea.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 15, 2022)

Sounds like a fun game. Although with all the changes, I was kind of hoping at the end Frodo would bite off Gollum's finger. 😅


"Radagast the Green". I love it! 😁


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 15, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Sounds like a fun game. Although with all the changes, I was kind of hoping at the end Frodo would bite off Gollum's finger. 😅


lol I didn't even think of that. To be honest, it was less creative than the subsequent two alternate Fellowships I've developed, but they haven't made it to the RPG table yet. 
Alternate #2 ("The Hobbit" inspired): Rómestámo, Tauriel, Thorin III Stonehelm, Bard II, Frodo, Sam, Grimbëorn, Gwarin, son of Dwalin.
I made these AFTER the first campaign so Radagast was on that roster rather than this one, where he would have fit better. Regardless, here are the story elements I came up with:
Rómestámo is portrayed very similar to Uncle Iroh from Avatar: The Last Airbender (a skilled warrior who enjoys tea and is filled with sagely wisdom). Tauriel has grown fey since the death of her love and subsequent exile (my version adheres to the book so all of her interactions with Kili happened while Bilbo isn't there). Tauriel has become a kind of wandering ranger. She helps travelers when she can and spends most of her time around the Woodmen of Mirkwood or the Bëornings with occasional trips to Dale (but never Erebor). Thorin III and Bard II are good friends and it is Bard who laughingly relates how Thorin III got his sobriquet. Thorin had been in a battle with orcs and lost his helm. He was thrown into a rockface and would have had his head split in two if a rock hadn't fallen off the cliff and landed on his head, knocking him unconcious but saving his life. Thorin is displeased with this story. Gwarin is Thorin's manservant and cook (akin to Sam). He is considered something of a family disappointment. The North Pass is not closed to Grimbëorn and the Bëornings so they do, indeed, go that route but they will be ambushed on the edge of Mirkwood and Tauriel will sacrifice herself to save them. She dies hoping she will get to at least see Kili again.

Alternate #3 (The Sea): Morinehtar, Gildor, Ar, son of Nar, Halbarad, Frodo, Sam, Galdor, Elphir, son of Imrahil.
I have much fewer plot elements for this lot but here they are:
Galdor convinces the Council to take the Ring south via the Sea. Since Sauron is expecting them to take a sea route a False Fellowship is create to act as a decoy (Gandalf, Legolas, Gimli, Boromir, Merry, Pippin, Aragorn, Tauriel, & Gwarin). Morinehtar is portrayed similar to Captain Nemo in the League of Extraordinary Gentleman film: stiff and stern but a skilled warrior and extremely experienced and knowledgeable. Nar is a dwarf archer. Smaller and less burly than most, he is the closest you'd get to a spy you'd get among good folk in Tolkien's lore (Nar is a dwarf deleted from the final drafts of LotR).


Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> "Radagast the Green". I love it! 😁


I was rather proud of it. I couldn't imagine him as Radagast the White as he wouldn't really fit as the new leader of the Istari. I had to choose another earthy colour and Green worked. He's a paler green though. Like early spring.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 15, 2022)

Hey, you should write some of these up in story form and post them in our fanic forum -- not to tell you what to do, of course! 😉


I see someone else had an idea for Radagast the Green.


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 15, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Hey, you should write some of these up in story form and post them in our fanic forum -- not to tell you what to do, of course! 😉


I have the original correspondance with my brother saved somewhere. Someday I'll get around to cleaning it up. The other two I may just create an outline for. Seems to be my way.


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## Ugluk (Sep 15, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Hey, you should write some of these up in story form and post them in our fanic forum -- not to tell you what to do, of course! 😉
> 
> 
> I see someone else had an idea for Radagast the Green.
> View attachment 15789


Hasn't used his sword for a while I see.......


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 19, 2022)

Say, Radaghast, I'm not a Quora member, so maybe you'd like to go through this thread and correct some of the mistakes:









Did Sauron have a body in the Third Age?


Answer (1 of 4): Yes. After the fall of Numenor he was vastly diminished and cursed to inhabit a horrible and evil body (depriving him of his ability to shapeshift and deceive people through his feigned beauty). At the battle of the Last Alliance, Sauron killed Elendil and Gil-Galad but was so b...




www.quora.com


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 19, 2022)

To me, Sauron must have had some body at one point, but later that was diminished. If I remember rightly, at the end of The Lord of the Rings, he could not return in any bodily form. 

Interesting question. Thanks for the article too, Squint.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 19, 2022)

I actually posted that because of some of the "answers". 😄


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 19, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> To me, Sauron must have had some body at one point, but later that was diminished. If I remember rightly, at the end of The Lord of the Rings, he could not return in any bodily form.
> 
> Interesting question. Thanks for the article too, Squint.


My understanding was that he had, indeed, reformed a physical body by the end of the 3rd Age. Without his Ring it took a lot longer (also he'd been killed twice in succession, which is highly disorienting).


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 19, 2022)

Very intriguing. What gives you that impression and understanding?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 19, 2022)

Tolkien explained the difficulties of reforming in a letter.


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 19, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Very intriguing. What gives you that impression and understanding?


Tolkien discussed the difficulties for Ainur in reforming a physical body and how disorienting it is to be killed. That Sauron reformed, I believe it's stated somewhere but we also know that Gollum refers to Sauron as having a hand (and he'd seen him by this point).


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 19, 2022)

Hmm... Very very interesting. If it isn't too much trouble, is there a link to this letter?


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## Radaghast (Sep 20, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Say, Radaghast, I'm not a Quora member, so maybe you'd like to go through this thread and correct some of the mistakes:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, you're going to get that on Quora a lot 😄 Beyond my power to correct, unfortunately; one can only comment and suggest. I think the answers are generally correct, though. 

The question of Sauron's corporeality is a common one on Quora, thanks to the Peej's films.


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## Elthir (Sep 20, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Hmm... Very very interesting. If it isn't too much trouble, is there a link to this letter?



Here's a couple references from Tolkien's letters. I can get the numbers if wanted, but for now I'm just pasting this from an old post of mine -- where I was apparently too lazy to note the numbers!

I gave one date however!

"I note your remarks about Sauron. He was always de-bodied when vanquished." JRRT 1957

Tolkien continues (I'm skipping some stuff here) . . .

" . . . It was thus that Sauron appeared in this shape. It is mythologically supposed that when this shape was "real", that is a physical actuality in the physical world and not a vision transferred from mind to mind, it took some time to build up. It was then destructible like other physical organisms. But that of course did not destroy the spirit, nor dismiss it from the world to which it was bound until the end. After the battle with Gilgalad and Elendil, Sauron took a long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the Downfall of Númenor (I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, that might be called the "will" or the effective link between the indestructible mind and being and the realization of its imagination). The impossibility of re-building after the destruction of the Ring, is sufficiently clear "mythologically" in the present book."

Notable points here, in my opinion:

A) the impossibility of rebuilding not after _the loss_ of the One, but after its destruction

3) Sauron rebuilds his body _after_ the Last Alliance (that it took longer also fits well with the implication of certain statements in the text and _The Tale of Years_)

And (another letter) . . .

"After which the Third Age began, a Twilight Age, a Medium Aevum, the first of the broken and changed world; the last of the lingering dominion of visible fully incarnate Elves, and the last also in which Evil assumes a single dominant incarnate shape."

Here Sauron would appear to be incarnate in the Third Age as well.

There's more, and add the description of Sauron's hand in _The Lord of the Rings_.


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## Radaghast (Sep 20, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> Tolkien discussed the difficulties for Ainur in reforming a physical body and how disorienting it is to be killed. That Sauron reformed, I believe it's stated somewhere but we also know that Gollum refers to Sauron as having a hand (and he'd seen him by this point).



Yup:


> ‘Tales out of the South,’ Gollum went on again, ‘about the tall Men with the shining eyes, and their houses like hills of stone, and the silver crown of their King and his White Tree: wonderful tales. They built very tall towers, and one they raised was silver-white, and in it there was a stone like the Moon, and round it were great white walls. O yes, there were many tales about the Tower of the Moon.’
> 
> ‘That would be Minas Ithil that Isildur the son of Elendil built’ said Frodo. ‘It was Isildur who cut off the finger of the Enemy.’
> 
> ‘Yes, He has only four on the Black Hand, but they are enough,’ said Gollum shuddering. ‘And He hated Isildur’s city.’



"The Black Gate Is Closed"

Plus Pippin sees Sauron in the Stone of Orthanc; he certainly doesn't see a spirit. And Denethor suggests to Pippin that Sauron is able to fight, or least appear on the battlefield when he tells him, "He uses others as his weapons" as do "all great lords". A spirit is what he becomes _after_ the Ring's destruction in the chapter "Mount Doom", one that "gnaws itself in the shadows" (in Gandalf's words), this time for good. This should be beyond any dispute. The whole point about the Ring is that it lets Sauron reincarnate. But again, thanks to the movies, which outright contradict the book on this, it continues to be a "controversy" and some continue to assume that Sauron is formless during the events of LoR. (This is all meant as a general comment, btw)


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## Ent (Sep 20, 2022)

Elthir said:


> I note your remarks about Sauron. He was always de-bodied when vanquished.


Letter # 200



Elthir said:


> It was thus that Sauron appeared in this shape


Also letter #200

That whole letter is about incarnation and related/tangential issues


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 20, 2022)

Elthir said:


> Aevum,


Oof, there's a word I've never heard before. Now I've got to go study Catholic theology some more.


Radaghast said:


> Plus Pippin sees Sauron in the Stone of Orthanc; he certainly doesn't see a spirit. And Denethor suggests to Pippin that Sauron is able to fight, or least appear on the battlefield when he tells him, "He uses others as his weapons" as do "all great lords". A spirit is what he becomes _after_ the Ring's destruction in the chapter "Mount Doom", one that "gnaws itself in the shadows" (in Gandalf's words), this time for good. This should be beyond any dispute. The whole point about the Ring is that it lets Sauron reincarnate. But again, thanks to the movies, which outright contradict the book on this, it continues to be a "controversy" and some continue to assume that Sauron is formless during the events of LoR. (This is all meant as a general comment, btw)


For the most part I liked the films but I feel like Tolkien would have HATED the idea of a giant flaming eye. We already know (thanks to various letters, not the least of which his response to Pauline Baynes drawings) how he responded to incorrect renderings of his characters. I may not have always liked how Christopher Tolkien responded to things but it seems to largely be akin to how his father did.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 20, 2022)

Thank you for all of this information. Definitely worth a few more perusals.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 20, 2022)

A purchase of the _Letters _is a definite recommendation.


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## Radaghast (Sep 20, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Hey, you should write some of these up in story form and post them in our fanic forum -- not to tell you what to do, of course! 😉
> 
> 
> I see someone else had an idea for Radagast the Green.
> View attachment 15789


Is that a fighter-ranger-druid cross class?


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 20, 2022)

Do they come in a book just like anything else? Where do you purchase them?


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## Radaghast (Sep 20, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Do they come in a book just like anything else? Where do you purchase them?


Yes, many of them have been collected in a book.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 20, 2022)

Oh thank you! I will have to add this to my ever-growing list of books I would love to read. This one would do me well to have on hand.


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## Ent (Sep 20, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Where do you purchase them?



Amazon.com has them. I got mine in the digital version of course, for quick research (as well as reading.)


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 20, 2022)

Thank you also, Enting. I might see if a quick eBook or loan from my library could familiarize me with the material.


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## Ent (Sep 20, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> This one would do me well to have on hand.


Indeed. Clarifies many things. 
Currently paperback is $17.99 and digital is $9.99.


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## Ent (Sep 20, 2022)

That's a BIG sale on the digital version... half its usual price.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 20, 2022)

Thank you very much, Ent.


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## Radaghast (Sep 20, 2022)

I got a softcover copy from goodwillrs on eBay for $13. Proceeds benefit charity.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 20, 2022)

That is smart. Will look into.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 20, 2022)

Jeez. I picked up my hardback from a stack of them on the remainders table of a chain bookstore, in 1982. One dollar.

Now I wish I'd bought them all -- I could be giving them away here now. 😔


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 20, 2022)

Glad you at least benefitted from it!


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## Deimos (Sep 20, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> Indeed. Clarifies many things.
> Currently paperback is $17.99 and digital is $9.99.


Yep. It is a indispensable resource in discussions with, shall we say, the lesser informed of Tolkien readers, who will tell you what Tolkien _really_ meant about this or that or whatever.
And I will [politely] reply: Ummmm... no... actually _this_, in his own words, is what he said about _that_.
And I've had people react angrily, both to my face and of course online.
Once person started screaming at me. It was online, and he didn't use caps, but omg, there was no doubt that he was livid, frothing at the mouth.

What usually sets them off is when they find out that Tolkien was [gasp! 😮] a Christian, and not just any old Christian but [horrors! ] a _Catholic, _and even worse (if it could get much worse) a [aiiiiieee!!! ] * practicing Catholic.*

People can be so funny like that.....😄

I first came across a hardbound edition of the Letters about 1985... it was on "remainder" table in a bookshop.
Pristine condition, well bound (stitched, not glued), perfect dust cover... IIRC $3 [USD] (about $8 today).
(Edit: just checked publication: 1981 by Houghton Mifflin, US ed.)

There was a stack of them; I couldn't believe it. ***
It's still there, on my bookshelf. Dust cover a little worse for the wear ... (but I've finally learned to remove dust covers when reading a book .)
But well used... I refer to it a lot, and aside from that, it is just a pleasure to read, like sitting there having him talk to you. 🙂 

*** Like Squint-Eyed Southerner I wish I had bought quite a few more. 
But there was no way to know that Tolkien-mania would occur years later. 
This is the edition I have and (I guess ) the one Squint-Eyed Southerner has as well.
Listed for about $100 on ebay.


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## Ent (Sep 20, 2022)

Deimos said:


> but I've finally learned to remove dust covers when reading a book



Indeed. I take all my dust covers off, layer them neatly in a box that's 'perfect dust cover size' so they don't get damaged.
If I ever decide to move the books along to others, I'll fish out the covers and stick them back on..!


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 20, 2022)

Hah. The DJ on my copy disintegrated long ago, and the spine is threatening to split. Not to mention the (penciled) notes and underlinings. 

I did find another nice copy at a Goodwill, a few years ago -- but that one stays on the bookshelf.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 20, 2022)

You have a very nice Goodwill!


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## Ent (Sep 20, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Hah. The DJ on my copy disintegrated long ago, and the spine is threatening to split. Not to mention the (penciled) notes and underlinings.
> 
> I did find another nice copy at a Goodwill, a few years ago -- but that one stays on the bookshelf.


The paperback is on sale at $17.99 right now, but that's only a couple bucks off the regular price.
I usually use paperbacks myself if I do a lot of rereading... OR if it's a 'reference' book like this.
But $17.99 doesn't beat a buck I'm afraid.


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## Ent (Sep 20, 2022)

Don't mean to keep babbling on, but it would be great if somebody did a good 'book review' on The Letters..!

It's so important, and gives us so much of J.R.R.'s mind... we see his wit, his thoughts on countless topics we tend to 'argue over', his clear statements about what he dislikes in how people handle his works and creation... even hints of his sarcasm... and more. 

His heart comes through in the ones to Christopher...

It really helps us see a bit more of who he is through his own words, approach, etc. rather than through what someone else has written about him.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 20, 2022)

I would be glad to write one once I have read!


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 20, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> You have a very nice Goodwill!


As a matter of fact, that same Goodwill is where I found one of the Ace LOTR paperbacks, and a copy of Ballantine's paperback edition of _A Tolkien Compass_, containing the "Guide to Names" missing in later editions.

Plus a bunch of firsts of Patrick O'Brian novels (not to brag or anything! 😅).


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## Deimos (Sep 20, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Hah. The DJ on my copy disintegrated long ago, and the spine is threatening to split. Not to mention the (penciled) notes and underlinings.
> 
> I did find another nice copy at a Goodwill, a few years ago -- but that one stays on the bookshelf.


A stitched spine on a book will last a lot longer than one that is glued.
It allows you to open the book pretty wide, even "cracking the spine" without having the pages fall out.
Almost all books now---and I guess even for the last 30 years or so (except the fancy Folio type editions with the gilt [faux] leather covers etc) --have glued spines, which results in the pages eventually falling out as the glue gets old. If you crack the spine on those, there's a good chance the pages will begin to fall out sooner rather than later.

I've never been able to make notations or underlinings in any book except a textbook.
I simply can't do it. It's as if there were this huge chasm before me, and on the far side is the land of "permissible book marking".
But on my side?...."You Shall Not Pass!" I am constitutionally unable to do it; it's like committing a sacrilege.
Oh, and making a "dog-ear" on a page corner? Cause for flogging at the very least.

And, you know, there is no middle ground on this.
I've met a too many readers to doubt it; you are either OK with making notations and underlines in a book, or you are not.


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## Ent (Sep 20, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> I would be glad to write one once I have read!



That would be great.
We have a spot where some book related stuff is put already.
I'd personally like to see a regular "Tolkien Book Reviews" category with two subsections - "Reviews of Books By Tolkien" and "Reviews of Books About Tolkien and His Works".

But I'm just not sure there's enough call for that... though I think it would provide an area where folks 'unfamiliar' with all there really is could learn just what's out there for their enjoyment/enrichment.

If that ever comes about I'll certainly do a more thorough review of the 2 or 3 few books I've already mentioned someplace here... (and maybe more).

It is said "What we don't know won't hurt us" - and though that may be so at times, I believe we're often hurt by our ignorance. (Ignorance: 'lack of knowledge about a thing', not 'stupidity')

But I DO know this - It can be said without contradiction: "What we don't know can't enrich us."


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 20, 2022)

Deimos said:


> A stitched spine on a book will last a lot longer than one that is glued.
> It allows you to open the book pretty wide, even "cracking the spine" without having the pages fall out.
> Almost all books now---and I guess even for the last 30 years or so (except the fancy Folio type editions with the gilt [faux] leather covers etc) --have glued spines, which results in the pages eventually falling out as the glue gets old. If you crack the spine on those, there's a good chance the pages will begin to fall out sooner rather than later.
> 
> ...


Well, I certainly don't mark up my Folio Society books! 😳


But in the course of research for "articles", I admit to having treated a few Tolkien-related books as "textbooks".


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## Ent (Sep 20, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I admit to...


...marking. Yep, I'm a (selective books) marker too. 'tis also why paperbacks vs. hardbacks. (when available.) When they get abused enough, it's less costly to get another paperback. 

I once went through the entire Wizard of Oz, marking out the days she was actually in Oz rather than the 2-3 days the classic 1939 movie depicts. 
It was quite amazing..!
(Also resulted, when I put it on my Wizard of Oz website, in an author coming to me asking me if I'd take a look at his books about Dorothy.) 

Naturally, someone immediately came to me publicly arguing that I was incorrect. I told him I was more than willing to be corrected, and to please 'show me the proofs.' Never heard from him again...

One just never knows.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 20, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> We have a spot where some book related stuff is put already.


We're still in the process of locating threads and moving the to the new forum. They're scattered all over the place, and some threads are in the "iffy" category, as far as relevance. But here's an old thread discussing _The Letters_:








The "Letters" - what to remember


An immense amount of Tolkien's time was taken up with the written word: not just his academic work and the stories of 'Middle-earth', but also letters. Many of these had to be written in the way of business, but in any case letter-writing was on most occasions a favourite activity with him...




www.thetolkienforum.com


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## Ent (Sep 20, 2022)

You folks do SO MUCH for this forum...! Thank you for your continued efforts.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 20, 2022)

And we're so well-paid for it. 😅

(That was a joke, in case anyone didn't notice 😀)


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## Deimos (Sep 20, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Well, I certainly don't mark up my Folio Society books! 😳


You have Folio Society Books? If I owned any I'd be afraid to touch them, much less read them.
But they do look really nice. Oh, and they are very well made too.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 20, 2022)

Yeah, I went nuts there, for a few years. But they have a half-price sale every summer (or used to); that brings the prices down to about the price of your average hardback these days. Much superior quality, of course.
And no "faux gilt" -- or "faux leather" either.


----------



## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 20, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> And we're so well-paid for it. 😅
> 
> (That was a joke, in case anyone didn't notice 😀)


You are both EXTREMELY under-appreciated. With everything that you do for this Forum, and for everyone here your value is just so immense. Thank you for all that you do, always!


----------



## Deimos (Sep 20, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Yeah, I went nuts there, for a few years. But they have a half-price sale every summer (or used to); that brings the prices down to about the price of your average hardback these days. Much superior quality, of course.
> And no "faux gilt" -- or "faux leather" either.


You mean they use real leather and real gold gilt? Sorry, my bad.
It looks real, but I always assumed it was faux, at least the leather.
Real gold gilt is still done on many things, and being thin, would not typically break the bank unless you were doing acres of it.
.


----------



## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 20, 2022)

Some versions do.. Depends how much you desire to spend.

I have some particularly ornate collection pieces, and then also some mass-market paperback editions, so tons of variety.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 20, 2022)

Deimos said:


> You mean they use real leather and real gold gilt?


Yep, and if they don't, they say so, as in the case of a few of their books bound in "vegetable parchment". They're careful to describe materials.

Unfortunately, I discovered that one of the idiosyncrasies of my chemical makeup causes the gilt to dissolve, so I should probably wear cotton gloves when reading.

Hmm. I wonder if that's connected with my inability to wear an old-style windup wristwatch?


----------



## Deimos (Sep 20, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Yep, and if they don't, they say so, as in the case of a few of their books bound in "vegetable vellum". They're careful to describe materials.
> 
> Unfortunately, I discovered that one of the idiosyncrasies of my chemical makeup causes the gilt to dissolve, so I should probably wear cotton gloves when reading.
> 
> Hmm. I wonder if that's connected with my inability to wear an old-style windup wristwatch?


Ummmm... so does a wind-up wristwatch dissolve on your wrist? I guess that could get pretty messy...


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 20, 2022)

No, it would just speed up and slow down, making it useless. Must be due to my magnetic personality. 😄

I was probably the only hippie to carry a pocket watch.

OK, time to get back on topic (Sorry, Radaghast 😔)


----------



## Deimos (Sep 20, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> No, it would just speed up and slow down, making it useless. Must be due to my magnetic personality. 😄
> 
> I was probably the only hippie to carry a pocket watch.
> 
> OK, time to get back on topic (Sorry, Radaghast 😔)


Yeah..sorry.... I am OCD when it comes to "going off on a tangent" (and any tangest will suffice).


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 20, 2022)

Hey, you're not the only culprit here!


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## Ent (Sep 20, 2022)

Hey, the topic is "Second-guessing and Misunderstanding Tolkien."

If one can do that, it stands to reason they will also second guess and misunderstand a Thread topic..! 😁


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## Deimos (Sep 20, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> No, it would just speed up and slow down, making it useless. Must be due to my magnetic personality. 😄
> 
> I was probably the only hippie to carry a pocket watch.
> 
> ...


That's a great GIF... 😄


----------



## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 21, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Must be due to my magnetic personality.


Must be.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 21, 2022)

Does this qualify?

__
https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/rzp70k

(Trying to make amends for derailing here)


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## Ent (Sep 21, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Does this qualify?


Sure.
Answered in the text when Gollum is chatting with himself.
--------------
"we'll see. It may well be, O yes, it may well be that when She throws away the bones and the empty garments, we shall find it, we shall get it, the Precious, a reward for poor Sméagol who brings nice food. And we’ll save the Precious, as we promised. O yes. And when we’ve got it safe, then She’ll know it, O yes, then we’ll pay Her back, my precious. Then we’ll pay everyone back!’ Tolkien, J.R.R.. _The Lord of the Rings: Vol II: The Two Towers_: Book 4: Chapt. 9 - _Shelob's Lair_.
-------------
Would she find the ring? Maybe. Is Gollum taking a decent risk? Probably.
Would she care? I doubt it. Like her parentage, she's only concerned for her own gluttony and has no more use for Sauron or rings than he has for her (other than as a 'gate guard').

Gollum, like Sauron, misses some finer points in his lust for possession of the Ring, and now the power it may give him as well... which he was totally unfamiliar with when he had it all those years before, by the way. He cared less for its power - only for its ability to let him wrench the necks of some 'squeakeres'. Now, he knows if he has it he can "pay Shelob back" and "pay everyone back" (including Sauron no doubt, for the horrors visited on him when he was captive.) Of course, he could NOT actually pay them all back, but the power and deception of the ring wants him to believe so, for its own sake.

(Nice recovery, S-eS. 😁)


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## Eljorahir (Sep 21, 2022)

The question of whether Shelob would keep the ring is also answered directly in the text:

_*"Little she knew of or cared for towers, or rings, or anything devised by mind or hand, who only desired death for all others, mind and body, and for herself a glut of life, alone, swollen till the mountains could no longer hold her up and the darkness could not contain her."*_


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## Ent (Sep 21, 2022)

Eljorahir said:


> The question of whether Shelob would keep the ring is also answered directly in the text:
> 
> _*"Little she knew of or cared for towers, or rings, or anything devised by mind or hand, who only desired death for all others, mind and body, and for herself a glut of life, alone, swollen till the mountains could no longer hold her up and the darkness could not contain her."*_


No wonder I thought what I thought about her..!! 🤓


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 21, 2022)

I was just asking if the question qualifies for this thread. 😄

I guess Radaghast will have to decide.


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## Ent (Sep 21, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I guess Radaghast will have to decide.



Ah yes, I see. And reviewing the original post (15.5 pages back), it really only asks one question: 

"How would/do others here respond to such questions, if at all?"

I forget if I answered the real, original question... (sorry @Radaghast) so here it is (again if it so be.)

Personally, I say "Well, this is what the text says", quote the text, and let 'em froth, fume, and fuss - or accept and move on - as they see fit.

Most aren't looking for 'answers' they're looking for 'confirmation and agreement', absent which the responder is just 'wrong'.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 21, 2022)

Fair enough -- though I have a sneaking suspicion you don't follow the Quora/Reddit Tolkien threads. To some of the questions-- and "answers" -- on there, my immediate gut response would be


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## Radaghast (Sep 21, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Does this qualify?
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/rzp70k
> ...


Yeah, these questions drive me nuts.



Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> No, it would just speed up and slow down, making it useless. Must be due to my magnetic personality. 😄











Well-aged Enting said:


> Sure.
> Answered in the text when Gollum is chatting with himself.
> --------------
> "we'll see. It may well be, O yes, it may well be that when She throws away the bones and the empty garments, we shall find it, we shall get it, the Precious, a reward for poor Sméagol who brings nice food. And we’ll save the Precious, as we promised. O yes. And when we’ve got it safe, then She’ll know it, O yes, then we’ll pay Her back, my precious. Then we’ll pay everyone back!’ Tolkien, J.R.R.. _The Lord of the Rings: Vol II: The Two Towers_: Book 4: Chapt. 9 - _Shelob's Lair_.
> ...


Yeah, many of the answers are found in the book. It's possible the questioner is going by the movies. Of course, nobody would normally think a spider-monster would have any use for a ring.



Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I was just asking if the question qualifies for this thread. 😄
> 
> I guess Radaghast will have to decide.


Am I being granted some sort of power? 😄


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 21, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> It's possible the questioner is going by the movies.


Those are the worst. I saw one that asked something like "Was Theoden right in ignoring Gandalf's advice to attack the Isengarders in the open, and going to Helm's Deep instead?"



Radaghast said:


> Am I being granted some sort of power? 😄


It's your thread -- so yes. 😄


----------



## Radaghast (Sep 21, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Those are the worst. I saw one that asked something like "Was Theoden right in ignoring Gandalf's advice to attack the Isengarders in the open, and going to Helm's Deep instead?"
> 
> 
> It's your thread -- so yes. 😄


----------



## Olorgando (Sep 21, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Fair enough -- though I have a sneaking suspicion you don't follow the Quora/Reddit Tolkien threads. To some of the questions-- and "answers" -- on there, my immediate gut response would be
> View attachment 15952


Scarecrow was the one needing a brain ... 🤔


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 21, 2022)

Then there must be a lot of "Scarecrows" populating those sites. 😄


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## Olorgando (Sep 21, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Then there must be a lot of "Scarecrows" populating those sites. 😄


Why am I suddenly having fantasies about matches ... 🤔


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## Ent (Sep 21, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Then there must be a lot of "Scarecrows" populating those sites.


Indeed. Scarecrow responded quite correctly to Dorothy's question.


_How can you talk without a brain? (Dorothy) 
- Well I don't know, but some people without brains do an awful lot of talking, don't they? (Scarecrow).... 1939 Wizard of Oz _


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## Olorgando (Sep 21, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> Indeed. Scarecrow responded quite correctly to Dorothy's question.
> _How can you talk without a brain? (Dorothy) _
> _- Well I don't know, but some people without brains do an awful lot of talking, don't they? (Scarecrow).... 1939 Wizard of Oz _


Did JRRT ever see this film? The origin of Orcs, Trolls (and their real-life counterparts)?


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## Ent (Sep 21, 2022)

Can't answer that one sir...
I highly suspect he may have read the books... more along his line. But he would have found the statement in the books to be quite different, though it was the inspiration for the movie script.

I am happy for you, as I see you're wearing your Grump Badge today at last..! 😁


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## Olorgando (Sep 21, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> I am happy for you, as I see you're wearing your Grump Badge today at last..! 😁


Ah, no. I was _*awarded*_ it late last Saturday, German aka CEDST (subtract 6 hours for US east coast etc:.) time.
So I inserted it into my avatar "subtitles" last Sunday at the latest - as I did Halasían's award of "Resident Curmudgeon". 😁


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## Ent (Sep 21, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> Ah, no. I was _*awarded*_ it late last Saturday


However it arrived, you wear it.
And dare I say it is well de..... umnhhh.... never mind. 🙂

(j/k you know..!)


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## Olorgando (Sep 21, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> However it arrived, you wear it.
> And dare I say it is well de..... umnhhh.... never mind. 🙂


...served. I did not mellow with age, quite the contrary ... 🤬


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## Erestor Arcamen (Sep 21, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> ...served. I did not mellow with age, quite the contrary ... 🤬


Hence that new badge of yours


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## Olorgando (Sep 21, 2022)

Actually went to YouTube without any prompting from anyone on TTF; found one of the best Rock (double) albums of all times, "The Rolling Stones - Hot Rocks 1964-1971"; got it on vinyl, volume 2 double vinyl, too. Problem is, I'm stuck in a "Groundhog Day" loop with "Satisfaction"!

🎸🎸🎸🎸🎸🎸🎸🎸🎸🎸🤸‍♀️🤾‍♀️🤸‍♀️🤾‍♀️🤸‍♀️

The next riff monster: "Jumpin' Jack Flash"...


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 21, 2022)

I think it is a badge that no one else would merit more than you, that is certain.

(j/k) Really not trying to be insulting, Gando, don't take it as such!)


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## Ugluk (Sep 21, 2022)

Grump badge???? We wants one Precious!


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## Ent (Sep 21, 2022)

Ugluk said:


> Grump badge???? We wants one Precious!


One cannot nominate ones self for a Grump Badge, but must be nominated by another member (or more). It is then reviewed by the Mods to be sure one has proven ones self worthy of such a (questionable) accolade. 

(In other words, one must act in such a way as to 'prove ones self worthy' of acknowledged grumpiness.)

In Olorgando's case, he has worked VERY hard to get it. (By simply being himself.) 

And trust me, it has been noticed..! I believe when nominated, the mods who reviewed were unanimous in their decision to award it. (Quickly..!!!) 

His reputation surrounds him. 😁

It is not a badge I would personally aspire to... but well... we are not all alike.

(in truth, Olorgando is a very nice, knowledgeable and respected member of the Forum here - during the 30 minutes of the day between lunch and nap time, when his grump is at its lowest point. but he is careful to conceal that 30 minutes from everyone by sending in his grump-double.)


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 21, 2022)

So true!


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## Radaghast (Sep 21, 2022)




----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 21, 2022)




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## Radaghast (Sep 21, 2022)

Is that Prince of Space?


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 22, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> Is that Prince of Space?


Star-man from Attack from Space. Very similar, though.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 23, 2022)

Hmm... Or is it perhaps Tilion?


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## Radaghast (Sep 24, 2022)

Reddit really seems to attract a special grade of moron. It's bizarre. Some comments are on the mark but some are just clueless.


__
https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/xmcxs5


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 24, 2022)

Some silliness going on here too:








Why did Elrond allow Bilbo to live in Rivendell for so many years rent-free? Was it because Bilbo was writing "Translations from the Elvi...


Answer (1 of 11): He didn’t allow it, he REQUIRED it. When Sauron reappeared and began looking for news of the ring, naturally Elrond and Gandalf knew That Bilbo was in danger, and made him come to Rivendell for safety. Furthermore, Elrond was infinitely indebted to Bilbo for his services in Th...




www.quora.com


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## Radaghast (Sep 24, 2022)

Yeah, saw that too. I think Quora is as silly as Reddit, just not as overtly obnoxious.


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 24, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> Reddit really seems to attract a special grade of moron. It's bizarre. Some comments are on the mark but some are just clueless.
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/xmcxs5


I can only imagine the misunderstanding about Mithril now that Rings of Power has decided to implement it in their plot (with their own made up lore).


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## Radaghast (Sep 24, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> I can only imagine the misunderstanding about Mithril now that Rings of Power has decided to implement it in their plot (with their own made up lore).


I know. Yikes


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 24, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> I know. Yikes


It's BAD. And for no reason.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 25, 2022)

Once again, we stray from the topic of this place... Or maybe not..


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## Ugluk (Sep 25, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Some silliness going on here too:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So kindness, generosity, and charity don't factor in to some people's world view?


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 25, 2022)

Ugluk said:


> So kindness, generosity, and charity don't factor in to some people's world view?


Nope.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 25, 2022)

How could they not? It is practically engraved into the pages of Tolkien.


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## Radaghast (Oct 11, 2022)

Ugh, this crud again 

Why can't Sauron possess a body in The Lord of the Rings if he is in the spirit form instead of a body?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 11, 2022)

Good grief-- you made me look. 😳

Which showed me another one.:
Question on Quora: Was Sauron alive during LOTR? https://www.quora.com/Was-Sauron-al...are=5441d0b3&srid=u37ljO&target_type=question


----------



## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Oct 11, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Good grief-- you made me look. 😳
> 
> Which showed me another one.:
> Question on Quora: Was Sauron alive during LOTR? https://www.quora.com/Was-Sauron-al...are=5441d0b3&srid=u37ljO&target_type=question


_Oh, for sweet Eru's sake! He was a Maia - how could he have *not *been alive?!_


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## Radaghast (Oct 11, 2022)

It begins...

Is Mithril seriously made of (kind of) Silmaril?


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## Radaghast (Oct 11, 2022)

Interesting new eye-roll icon. Can't make out what it's wearing 🤔


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## Ugluk (Oct 11, 2022)

Another example.... 
https://www.quora.com/Why-isnt-Thra...cognize-the-Arkenstone-is-actually-a-Silmaril 

Pointing and laughing is a very low form of humour, but it is one all the same......


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## Ugluk (Oct 11, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> Interesting new eye-roll icon. Can't make out what it's wearing 🤔


I think it is meant to be a wizard's hat


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## Radaghast (Oct 11, 2022)

Since this thread has veered off topic anyway, here's one I'm posting just because:

John Ronald. Was Ronald Reagan named after Tolkien?

Heck, maybe this should just be the silly questions thread.


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## The Void (Oct 12, 2022)

I always wondered how Hobbits, supposedly being kin to Men (Humans) had got pointy ears?


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## Erestor Arcamen (Oct 12, 2022)

Does it say in the books they had pointy ears or was that a PJ invention?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 12, 2022)

Tolkien's drawing of Bilbo.



Radaghast said:


> Heck, maybe this should just be the silly questions thread.


There are many such threads. 😉
Hey -- maybe we should have a Silly Questions forum! 😁


----------



## Radaghast (Oct 12, 2022)

Also


Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> View attachment 16417
> Tolkien's drawing of Bilbo.


Also, in a letter he described their ears as "only slightly pointed and ‘elvish’"


Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> There are many such threads. 😉
> Hey -- maybe we should have a Silly Questions forum! 😁


I propose a Ministry of Silly Questions, to go along with the Ministry of Silly Walks.






(I just realized the legs can rotate either way)


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 12, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> John Ronald. Was Ronald Reagan named after Tolkien?


No, but I think this guy was.


----------



## ZehnWaters (Oct 12, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> Interesting new eye-roll icon. Can't make out what it's wearing 🤔


A wizard's hat.



Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> No, but I think this guy was.
> View attachment 16418


I suppose it's better that they ask than remain in ignorance.


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## Radaghast (Oct 12, 2022)

Aarrrgh! Read the books!

How Is Melkor more powerful than Sauron? And where was Melkor when Sauron was taking over middle earth?

I hope these eye rolls are directed at the questions and not at me 😬😄


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 12, 2022)

They are indeed.


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## Radaghast (Oct 13, 2022)

Besides the bad questions, there are also bafflingly bad answers:

Question: 


> "What was Sauron reaching for after he smashed Narsil in pieces and had his hand (with Ring of Power) exposed and at risk?"


Answer:


> That was from the movie, not the book. Tolkien’s writings were always more vague about how Isildur could possibly have gotten the Ring off of Sauron’s finger, but he somehow did. (That was always a big hole in Tolkien’s stories, so I didn’t think Peter Jackson’s attempt to make it more believable a bad thing… although it raised still more questions.)



Just... _how_? How can anyone who has read the book come to this conclusion? The text is not vague on this. It clearly says, in more than one place, that Isildur cuts the Ring from Sauron's hand after he is "overthrown" Gil-galad and Elendil.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 13, 2022)

The "Big hole" is in the respondent's memory-- understandable, given the massive story; I have some myself, and often have to look things up. I have a feeling repeated viewing of the movies mess up quite a few memories too -- especially for people who saw them before reading. As a matter of fact, there's a discussion on the subject going on here right now:

Post in thread 'What do you remember about your first reading of the LOTR?' https://www.thetolkienforum.com/thr...r-first-reading-of-the-lotr.30262/post-566243

That said, I would personally hesitate to answer questions confidently _until _I'd looked up references -- something that a lot of Quorans and Redditors apparently feel unnecessary. 😀


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## Radaghast (Oct 13, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> That said, I would personally hesitate to answer questions confidently _until _I'd looked up references -- something that a lot of Quorans and Redditors apparently feel unnecessary. 😀


Especially when someone points out the error, which I did. His answer suggested he still thinks it's Isildur who is "somehow able to wrestle Sauron down to the ground and pin him to the dirt, long enough to actually cut the ring off his finger!"

😐

That was in all caps with many more exclamation points, incidentally 😕


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 13, 2022)

I think you're fighting a losing battle there, but . . .


----------



## Radaghast (Oct 13, 2022)

Another answer contains this picture:





I don't recall Sauron ever killing Spider-Man 😝



Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I think you're fighting a losing battle there, but . . .
> View attachment 16445


What is the DEAL with people getting Tolkien wrong?


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 13, 2022)

Too much Roundtine?


----------



## ZehnWaters (Oct 13, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> Another answer contains this picture:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You don't?


----------



## Radaghast (Oct 13, 2022)

Nope, not even Marvel's own Sauron 😝


----------



## Erestor Arcamen (Oct 13, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Too much Roundtine?


That's gold, SES! Gold!


----------



## Ugluk (Oct 13, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> Especially when someone points out the error, which I did. His answer suggested he still thinks it's Isildur who is "somehow able to wrestle Sauron down to the ground and pin him to the dirt, long enough to actually cut the ring off his finger!"
> 
> 😐
> 
> That was in all caps with many more exclamation points, incidentally 😕


 Oh dear... 


I have always understood the text as implying that Gilgalad and Elendil had, through their sacrifice, weakened Sauron to the point where Isildur could cut the ring off with the hilt of Narsil


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## Radaghast (Oct 17, 2022)

Here's one I'd forgotten about:

Why not give the Ring to Ungoliant? Ungoliant eats the ring, destroys it, and kills Sauron. Game over. Why is there such a huge plot hole?


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 17, 2022)

Ugluk said:


> Oh dear...
> 
> 
> I have always understood the text as implying that Gilgalad and Elendil had, through their sacrifice, weakened Sauron to the point where Isildur could cut the ring off with the hilt of Narsil


This idea may have been based on concept art for the film. The painting of the Ring being cut from Sauron's finger in Rivendell was, originally, supposed to show Sauron on the ground and Isildur standing above him, cutting off his finger.



Radaghast said:


> Here's one I'd forgotten about:
> 
> Why not give the Ring to Ungoliant? Ungoliant eats the ring, destroys it, and kills Sauron. Game over. Why is there such a huge plot hole?


"plothole" Well, Ungoliant as likely dead by now, that's one reason.


----------



## Radaghast (Oct 17, 2022)

The only "hole" is in that questioner's head 😝


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 17, 2022)

And in some of the "answerers" too, IMO.

Shelob wasn't "strong enough" to consume the Ring? She didn't care about rings.


----------



## ZehnWaters (Oct 17, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> And in some of the "answerers" too, IMO.
> 
> Shelob wasn't "strong enough" to consume the Ring? She didn't care about rings.


We already know dragons weren't strong enough (even Smaug) who are likely just as powerful, if not more, as Shelob.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 17, 2022)

True enough, but my point was that Shelob's indifference is explicit in the text.


> But her lust was not his lust. Little she cared for towers, or rings, or anything devised by mind or hand, who desired only death for all others, mind and body . . .


Someone didn't read that before answering, apparently. The same goes for the "pet" remark -- Sauron didn't call her that, an orc did. I've seen it several times with the "cat" reference too, although that's the narrator inserting himself.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Nov 17, 2022)

Latest one:

__
https://www.reddit.com/r/lotr/comments/yx2ac5

Some pretty funny remarks in the comments. 😄


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## Kiredor (Dec 6, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> This is not another "Why didn't they use the Eagles" thread though that topic is briefly discussed here. This is more a thread examining the seemingly constant stream of "Why didn't..." questions on sites like Reddit and Quora. The Eagle-related ones. Ones that ask why the Valar don't intercede. Etc.
> 
> Questions about the Eagles and the Valar might be excusable (if not valid) if the askers don't look into the logistics of the story or the background of the writing of the book or, of course, the need to create an engaging story (and, truthfully, how many works of fiction are flawless and without contrivance?). Almost needless to say, Tolkien did not set out to write a sequel to _The Hobbit_ of his own volition, but acquiescing to publisher and public request, he came up with _The Lord of the Rings_. In doing so, in choosing Bilbo's ring as the genesis of the idea that he would develop, he was perhaps operating under certain constraints. So, whatever flaws one might perceive in the work, I think one must consider the circumstances under which it was composed. If Tolkien had conceived of the idea of the Rings of Power from the start on his own (meaning without the demand for a follow-up to TH) we probably would have had something very different, and one possibly even better than what we were given. And what we got is fairly magnificent, especially considering the circumstances.
> 
> ...


I believe, because Tolkien was a catholic, he intended to leave the Valar and Eagles out of the trials and tribulations of middle-earth in the same way theists believe God takes a back seat to all things. As far as the plot goes, I found nothing wrong with it. (Characters + conflict = plot.) Main protagonists Frodo & Sam (characters) find themselves in a predicament not of their choosing (conflict), the story is simply how they overcome the many obstacles to resolve the conflict. The way in which Tolkien chose to write, rewrite and change LOTR so often shows his own conflict with the publisher’s demands.


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## Ugluk (Dec 7, 2022)

Kiredor said:


> I believe, because Tolkien was a catholic, he intended to leave the Valar and Eagles out of the trials and tribulations of middle-earth in the same way theists believe God takes a back seat to all things. As far as the plot goes, I found nothing wrong with it. (Characters + conflict = plot.) Main protagonists Frodo & Sam (characters) find themselves in a predicament not of their choosing (conflict), the story is simply how they overcome the many obstacles to resolve the conflict. The way in which Tolkien chose to write, rewrite and change LOTR so often shows his own conflict with the publisher’s demands.


Actually theists, at least of the Christian variety, think God is both transcendent to and immanent in the world and working through providence. LOTR has many examples of providential events. Taking a back seat is more a characteristic of deism. Roman Christianity has, especially since time time of Aquinas (as I understand it) has often seen Divine action occurring through secondary powers, this is similar to the Eru and the Valar in the larger ME mythos.


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## Ugluk (Dec 7, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> This idea may have been based on concept art for the film. The painting of the Ring being cut from Sauron's finger in Rivendell was, originally, supposed to show Sauron on the ground and Isildur standing above him, cutting off his finger.


No in my case, it is how I have envisaged it since about 1973....


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## Gloranthan (Dec 9, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Some silliness going on here too:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I love the implication that Elrond is hard up for cash and would normally nickle-and-dime hobbits who enjoyed his hospitality. Pretty sure Elrond could spare some rent money.

Seriously, never in my life has the thought 'Elrond needs money' passed before my mind. This is golden oblivion. I'm literally LOLing. Of all the things Elrond is short on, I'm pretty sure change isn't one of them.

I envisioned Isildur chopping off Sauron's finger in the heat of combat. I cannot recall if any details on this are ever given. I don't see it either as Isildur is wrekd or Sauron is on the ground, they're just flailing at each other and Isildur pops that sucker in the knuckle joint with his magic knife (formerly sword). Is this wrong?
If you've ever fenced you might understand how easily this could happen. Getting stabbed in the hand is a thing.
*Edit:* It is, the Elves took Sauron down somehow first. Anyway, this thread is ludicrous.


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