# Who made the Seven Rings?



## TrackerOrc (May 2, 2020)

So Appendix A, Durin's Folk, has the following about the Ring passed down by Durin's Heirs:

"Of this Ring something may be said here. It was believed by the Dwarves of Durin's Folk to be the first of the Seven that was forged; and they say that it was given to the King of Khazad-dum, Durin III, by the Elven-smiths themselves and not by Sauron, though doubtless his evil power was on it, since he had aided in the forging of all the Seven."

So this raises a few questions (and, as an aside, shows that no matter how many times you read LoTR, there's always something new that jumps out at you):

I've always felt that, apart from the Three Rings which Sauron had no dealings with, all the other Rings were essentially Sauron's; yet, can we say that this may not actually be the case? He _aided_ in the forging of the Seven, which isn't the same as saying that he forged them - how much (good) input did the Elven-smiths have?

And if this is the case, does this somehow tie in with the Seven not being as effective as the Nine (not forgetting the Dwarvish essential toughness etc)? Did the Rings themselves help the Dwarves to resist because of the fact that the Elven-smiths themselves were largely responsible for the Seven, with Sauron perhaps playing a much lesser part than we perhaps think?


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## Starbrow (May 2, 2020)

I had the impression that the elves forged all of the rings except for the One Ring. I assumed the Sauron guided the elves in their making and was able to taint the Seven and the Nine with his evil influence. I have no idea about how he would be able to do that, though.


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## grendel (May 2, 2020)

I have only read the Big Three (Hobbit, LotR, and the Sil) so there may be answers in the vast canon of notes that make up HoME, Book of Lost Tales etc... BUT my impression was that the only ring Sauron actually forged himself was the One. Although he had to have influenced the making of the others, since the One was designed to control them all. And I too, have wondered about how the Nine were given to mortal men, the Seven were given to dwarves, etc... WHO "gave" them? How was it decided? Inquiring minds want to know.)


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## TrackerOrc (May 2, 2020)

My understanding was that Sauron and the Elven-smiths actually worked together in the forging of the lesser Rings - from The Council of Elrond:

"As he [Elrond] told of the Elven-smiths of Eregion and their friendship with Moria, and their eagerness for knowledge, by which Sauron ensnared them. For in that time he was not yet evil to behold, and they received his aid and grew mighty in craft, whereas he learned all their secrets, and betrayed them and forged secretly in the Mountain of Fire the One Ring to be their master."

I've always read the emphasis on Sauron's physical appearance to indicate that he was actually present at the forging, physically helping (and at the same time betraying) the Elven-smiths?


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## Alcuin (May 2, 2020)

When you say, “lesser rings”, I think you’re referring to “magic” rings made in Eregion beyond the nineteen Great Rings of Power. We’re not told, but I think they were already making these “lesser rings” when Sauron arrived in Eregion disguised as “Annatar”. That makes it easy for him to say, _Let me show you how you can make that better or stronger,_ impressing the Elven-smiths with knowledge he really had. Gandalf told Frodo in “Shadow of the Past” that, “In Eregion long ago many Elven-rings were made... But the Great Rings, the Rings of Power, they were perilous.” 

Sauron had a hand in making the Nine and the Seven. “The Three, fairest of all, the Elf-lords hid from him, and his hand never touched them or sullied them,” Gandalf told Frodo in the same conversation. Celebrimbor alone made those. 

Because of the rhyme of lore, _Three rings for the Elven kings under the sky,_ we often forget that _all_ the rings, great and small, were made for Elves. When Sauron began his war upon the Elves in the Second Age, Celebrimbor gave the most powerful of the Seven to his friend and ally, Durin (III?) of Khazad-dûm, who closed the west entrance to Moria (the one the Company of the Ring later entered to escape the Watcher in the Water) and preserved the Dwarves from Sauron’s invasion and ruin of Eregion. 

I think Celebrimbor’s gift of the greatest of the Seven to Durin was what inspired Sauron to give out the six kings of the other Dwarf Houses the six remaining Seven Rings; but Aulë made Dwarves to resist domination by other wills, and he was foiled. Men proved easier to ensnare, however. 

So I think that the Seven Rings were made by the Mírdain, the Elven-smiths of Eregion, led by Celebrimbor, de facto ruler of Eregion and only survivor of the House of Fëanor. Sauron, disguised as Annatar and pretending to be their friend and ally, advised and helped them. 

One more thing. Celebrimbor gave the Three to Galadriel, Gil-galad, and Círdan to hide them from Sauron. The Dwarves said he gave the greatest of the Seven to Durin, presumably for the same purpose. The Elves disputed that: they claimed it was Sauron in disguise. I suppose it irked them that Celebrimbor and Durin were so close that Celebrimbor trusted the Dwarf king to help guard his treasure.


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## TrackerOrc (May 3, 2020)

Alcuin said:


> When you say, “lesser rings”, I think you’re referring to “magic” rings made in Eregion beyond the nineteen Great Rings of Power. We’re not told, but I think they were already making these “lesser rings” when Sauron arrived in Eregion disguised as “Annatar”. That makes it easy for him to say, _Let me show you how you can make that better or stronger,_ impressing the Elven-smiths with knowledge he really had. Gandalf told Frodo in “Shadow of the Past” that, “In Eregion long ago many Elven-rings were made... But the Great Rings, the Rings of Power, they were perilous.”
> 
> Sauron had a hand in making the Nine and the Seven. “The Three, fairest of all, the Elf-lords hid from him, and his hand never touched them or sullied them,” Gandalf told Frodo in the same conversation. Celebrimbor alone made those.
> 
> ...


Ah, my mistake. I actually meant the lesser Rings to be the Nineteen, being lesser to the One, so to speak.

And again, if Sauron was able to give the rest of the Seven to the other Dwarf-lords (and presumably the Nine to Mortals), wouldn't this suggest that he was physically able to get hold of them in the first place? Following on from this, couldn't we say that he would have been present at their actual forging? I've always had the idea that he and the Elven-smiths would have been side by side actually making these things? Makes rather a striking image, if nothing else!


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (May 3, 2020)

Yes, that's how I always pictured it, although perhaps more as an "advisor" or "supervisor".

He "got hold of them" when he assaulted Eregion and in Tolkien's words, _'demanded all the rings of them'._

An argument was made here that the Seven were made for, and distributed to, the Dwarves, _by the Elves:_









Was Frodo a hero?


Thank you NicolausVI for this informative post and welcome to the forum ... and of course Frodo took a sword strike from the Witch-King of Angmar Lord of the Nazgul, reminiscent of Christ on the cross?




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I think it's a flawed argument, but perhaps of interest.

BTW, Alcuin, rereading that thread reminds me: is there a statement somewhere corroborating the "tradition" among Durin's folk that their ring was given by Celebrimbor, rather than Sauron? As I said in that thread, it always struck me as being a comforting legend -- that is, an attempt to put "their" ring beyond Sauron's influence, so to speak.


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## Alcuin (May 3, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> BTW, Alcuin, rereading that thread reminds me: is there a statement somewhere corroborating the "tradition" among Durin's folk that their ring was given by Celebrimbor, rather than Sauron? As I said in that thread, it always struck me as being a comforting legend -- that is, an attempt to put "their" ring beyond Sauron's influence, so to speak.


The stories are told with an Elvish bias, right? So Deconstructionism informs us that they’re designed to make all other races look bad, and empower the Elves, especially the Eldar, who enjoy inappropriate prestige and power over others, and therefore we can safely assert that Sauron didn’t give anyone any of the Rings of Power: they all took them from nefarious Elvish mercenaries disguised as Sauron in disguise.

On a more serious note, I suppose you’re correct: I cannot recall anything definitive that Celebrimbor gave the greatest of the Seven to Durin himself. But I see no reason to believe that Sauron did. 

Consider this. Sauron seized Celebrimbor at the doors of the House of the Mírdain in Eregion. This fact was no secret. Until that time, the Elves of Eregion had possession of the Nine and the Seven. Ergo, if Durin received his Ring before Sauron reached Eregion, he got it from Celebrimbor; if he got it afterwards, Sauron gave it to him. 

So the question can be transformed into this: Were Durin and the Dwarves of his house dumber than a box of rocks? Because if you believe, as some Elves asserted, that Sauron gave Durin a Ring after Eregion was invaded, that’s basically the argument you’re left with. 

I’d bet Durin’s Folk told the truth.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (May 3, 2020)

Given the timeline, I concede that to be more likely.

But it does cut into the argument that the Elves made the rings for their own use, and were aware of the danger to mortals -- however long-lived.

At least on the one hand. On the other, there's the long friendship between Eregion and Moria, implying a deeper understanding between Celebrimbor and Durin, so that, with proper warnings and cautions, the former may well have felt he could entrust the latter with a ring.

Hmm. Bears thinking about. . .

In fact, I can see how it might work to Sauron's advantage, in a way, as far as enticing the other Dwarves to accept rings. I could imagine such speeches as this:

"You see? The great Elf-lord gave a ring only to his favourite, but I say, let every House have its ring!"


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## Alcuin (May 3, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> …But it does cut into the argument that the Elves made the rings for their own use, and were aware of the danger to mortals -- however long-lived.
> 
> At least on the one hand. On the other, there's the long friendship between Eregion and Moria, implying a deeper understanding between Celebrimbor and Durin, so that, with proper warnings and cautions, the former may well have felt he could entrust the latter with a ring.


I had not considered that line of thought. It just seemed to me that, having given away the Three that he most treasured, Celebrimbor was desperate to hide the Seven, and gave the best of those to a person he knew and trusted, his friend and ally Durin King of Khazad-dûm.


Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> …I can see how it might work to Sauron's advantage, in a way, as far as enticing the other Dwarves to accept rings. I could imagine such speeches as this:
> 
> "You see? The great Elf-lord gave a ring only to his favourite, but I say, let every House have its ring!"


I cannot imagine Sauron wandering Middle-earth giving away Rings of Power without a disguise, though. For one thing, the leaders of the old cities of Belegost and Nogrod were the heads of their Houses, and the head of each of the Houses of the Dwarves received one of the Seven. Now if they were in Khazad-dûm, that would prove a tricky maneuver; even if they weren’t, and were living in or near their old ruined settlements, whose territory Dwarves continued to use and inhabit into the Fourth Age, most of their people were living in Khazad-dûm, Sauron had only recently invaded, ravaged, and ransacked Eregion next door, and no Dwarf-king worth his salt would trust the old *#&! 

Khamûl the Easterling, I suppose, was an adherent of Sauron’s, as were perhaps five others of the nine Men ensnared; the three Númenóreans, however, were surely deceived: Gandalf warns Frodo that sooner or later, a Ring of Power will devour its user, later if the user is good and of good intent to begin with: In that case, I think he’s referring not only to Bilbo, but to the three Númenóreans that became Ringwraiths. (If Glorfindel came to Middle-earth in the Second Age to fight Sauron, as one telling has it, I’d bet he knew the Lord of the Nazgûl as a living man, a good man and a courageous leader, and possibly the other two Númenóreans, too. So might Elrond and Círdan among many others, perhaps including Gildor.) 

Back to the Dwarves. In _The Hobbit_, Tolkien says that wicked Dwarves sometimes made alliances with evil folk, and that might mean one or more of the Houses out East made an alliance with Sauron at some point; but I think it unlikely because of the Dwarves’ allegiance to Aulë. That Sauron himself gave them out I don’t doubt; that he would or could do so without disguising himself, I doubt. 

That he might use Celebrimbor’s entrusting a Ring of Power to Durin to tempt the other Dwarf-kings I think ingenious.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (May 3, 2020)

Hmm. Would he possibly have been able to revert, if that's the word, to his old Annatar persona? It does mean "Giver of Gifts", after all. Or would that have have become an, er, "persona non grata" by that time?


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## Alcuin (May 3, 2020)

Annatar’s cover was blown once the One Ring was completed and war began. Some other plausible story would have to suffice. I suppose Sauron could put about that the remaining Seven were scattered, lost, and relocated after the sack of Ost-in-Edhil, but that’s pure speculation. I am unaware of any published material on exactly how Sauron accomplished getting the Dwarf-kings to accept six Rings of Power, other than that he did. I think we can draw some reasonable and defensible conclusions about how he approached nine powerful Men and turned them into Ringwraiths, but I cannot see how he convinced the Dwarf-kings to accept Rings: surely rulers of the nearby kingdoms (particularly the Firebeards and Broadbeams who came from the Blue Mountains, from old Belegost and Nogrod) would be on their guard.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (May 3, 2020)

Yes, it's a lacuna in the story, leaving a gap wide enough to spark some, to me, eccentric theories -- such as in the thread I linked earlier.


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## Elthir (May 3, 2020)

Alcuin said:


> Khamûl the Easterling, . . .




Who?

I "had" to


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (May 3, 2020)

Never heard of him.


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## Elthir (May 3, 2020)

Maybe he means Khamûl, the Shadow of the East


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (May 3, 2020)

Oh -- the Black Easterling!


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## Erestor Arcamen (May 3, 2020)

Maybe someone should open a topic on him


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## Elthir (May 4, 2020)

Elthir said:


> Who?




BTW Norrinradd . . . that's just a friendly jest . . . I have no problem with the amount of Khamul chat recently . . . now back to my favorite topic. . .

. . . in my opinion Galadriel gave no rings of power to any Dwarves.


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## Erestor Arcamen (May 4, 2020)

Elthir said:


> BTW Norrinradd . . . that's just a friendly jest . . . I have no problem with the amount of Khamul chat recently . . . now back to my favorite topic. . .
> 
> . . . in my opinion Galadriel gave no rings of power to any Dwarves.



@norrinradd - Same with me! I appreciate every member being here and posting on what he or she is interested in. Keep up the great discussiona and I hope that you truly find the answers that you seek. We're all happy to always help in anyways that we can.

Back on topic, this thread goes into the making of the rings as well:









Nazgul and the 9 Rings


Actually, I had always thought he was an orc- just because while the Witch King led the assault Tolkien constantly uses the phrase "but it was no brigand or orc-chieftain that led the assault . . .", and after his fall we see Gothmog (without any such line) send in the reserves to get...




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I also found several Nazgul threads for norrinradd that I posted in his latest Khamul thread 😃.


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## Rilien (May 4, 2020)

Alcuin said:


> Annatar’s cover was blown once the One Ring was completed and war began. Some other plausible story would have to suffice. I suppose Sauron could put about that the remaining Seven were scattered, lost, and relocated after the sack of Ost-in-Edhil, but that’s pure speculation. I am unaware of any published material on exactly how Sauron accomplished getting the Dwarf-kings to accept six Rings of Power, other than that he did. I think we can draw some reasonable and defensible conclusions about how he approached nine powerful Men and turned them into Ringwraiths, but I cannot see how he convinced the Dwarf-kings to accept Rings: surely rulers of the nearby kingdoms (particularly the Firebeards and Broadbeams who came from the Blue Mountains, from old Belegost and Nogrod) would be on their guard.



All of that makes sense, although I've always had the impression that ANY dwarf (see: Thorin) has a sizeable weakness of will and perhaps even rational thinking when confronted with an item of serious treasure.

Also, I seem to recall reading somewhere at some point that these seven rings were used to establish great hoards of treasure by the dwarves? Am I remembering that correctly? If so, it's plausible that Sauron could persuade gold-loving dwarves that these rings would be very lucrative investments...particularly if said dwarves were confident in their inherent ability to resist domination by an outsider.


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## Elthir (May 4, 2020)

I'm not sure it's been mentioned yet (in this thread), but _Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age_ relates that "Seven rings he [Sauron] gave to the Dwarves; but to Men he gave Nine, for Men proved in this matter as in others, the readiest to his will" (and so on, about the Dwarves proving hard to tame, but that they used the rings for the getting of wealth, and so on again, regarding the foundation of the seven hoards).

In _Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn_ (generally speaking, a text not without problems in my opinion) it is told that Celebrimbor revealed to Sauron where the Seven were bestowed. For myself, with the Dwarvish tale, I think we have one of those "purposed inconsistencies" I'm too often rambling about -- a touch of nice world-building -- but so far, I tend to fall on this side: that while Celebrimbor the Feanorean might have given a great gift to Durin, it was not an Elvish ring of power.

"They hid the Three Rings, so that not even Sauron ever discovered where they were and they remained unsullied. The others they tried to destroy. In the resulting war between Sauron and the Elves Middle-earth, especially in the West, was further ruined. Eregion was capture and destroyed, and Sauron seized many rings of power. These he gave, for their ultimate corruption and enslavement, to those who would accept them (out of ambition or greed). Hence the ancient rhyme . . ." JRRT, letter 131 to M.Waldman, probably late 1951

Of course you can claim Tolkien changed his mind (1951), or that these two sources were more intent on summation. In any event, I'm not ready to give the Dwarven version a factual status (not that anyone is), and even though we don't have much to describe how Sauron dealt out these "prizes", he seems pretty good at cozening, in general.


🐾


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## Aldarion (May 5, 2020)

Rilien said:


> All of that makes sense, although I've always had the impression that ANY dwarf (see: Thorin) has a sizeable weakness of will and perhaps even rational thinking when confronted with an item of serious treasure.



No wonder dwarves and dragons hate each others - they are waay too much alike!


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