# dragons



## syongstar (Jan 4, 2002)

Do you think dragons are really friendly? why did Smaug play with Bilbo?Would you play with someone breaking into your home to steal?


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## Grond (Jan 4, 2002)

I would hardly call it Smaug's home. Smaug flew in to Erebor and killed literally thousands of Dwarves to procure the Hoard of Smaug. It was ill gotten gains so I'm not sure that Bilbo's title of "thief" was even warranted.

Smaug wasinherently evil, as it was a Dragon of Morgoth or one from that brood. They were bred devious and mean-spirited but were, in a way, friendly. If you'll read the Silmarillion, you'll find an interesting conersation occurs between Turin and Glaurung the Dragon. Very similar to the dialogue between Bilbo and Smaug (of course Glaurung was much bigger and meaner, being the Father of Dragons). As a matter of fact, Glaurung speaks to Turin twice. Once in the Halls of Nargothrond and then again after Turin slays the dragon with his sword, Gurthang. Both conversations are interesting. Check it out.


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## Ragnarok (Jan 4, 2002)

Smaug was never nice to Bilbo. He was playing with his mind. He had no intention of not killing Bilbo. If he could see him, he would have killed him right away, or asked 'Who are you?' *CHOMP*


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## Grond (Jan 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ragnarok _
> *Smaug was never nice to Bilbo. He was playing with his mind. He had no intention of not killing Bilbo. If he could see him, he would have killed him right away, or asked 'Who are you?' *CHOMP* *


Au contrare Ragnoarok. Smaug was, indeed, being very nice to Bilbo to try and trick him into coming nearer so that he could make Bilbo the main course for supper. I tried to get the point across in my previous post that Smaug had to be inherently evil, being a servant of Morgoth or one of the brood of Morgoth's dragons, but was smart enough to realize he couldn't get an invisible thief without using some smarts. 

I was also trying to illustrate how Tolkien had a way of confusing a reader and then surprising them later with a change that "shocked" their system of thinking. One example would be Stider..."...looks foul, feels fair Sam?..." "All that is gold does not glitter..." and then you have Smaug who initially feels fair but is definately as you describe him. "How are you, Mr. Thief? Chomp! Chomp!"


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## Eonwe (Jan 5, 2002)

I think if you read the Silmarillion you can see how much HORROR a dragon invoked. Thus the incredible nature of Biblo's talk with Smaug. His "scanning" eyes, not able to see Bilbo with the Ring on. I am sure and this is not mentioned in the Hobbit, but if that part was written after LOTR perhaps Tolkien would have talked about Smaug FEELING a tremendous evil presence in the air (the RING!)! Must have somewhat put him in the mood to talk!

I love the part when the dwarves venture out of the gate of Erebor, and are constantly looking up at the mountain side over their shoulders for Smaug to suddenly appear! And the feeling Bilbo had when they finally shut the hidden door and Smaug then smashed it!


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## ReadWryt (Jan 26, 2002)

Actually Grond, Tolkien's take on that is that no creature in Middle-earth was inherantly evil. If you like I can find you the quote from the letters, but the gyst of it is this. Melkor could not create anything out of nothing, he had to have subverted some creature into being his servant...as with Trolls, Orcs and Uruk-hai...or else some being of higher order would have to take form as an evil creature to be an outward manifestation of the evil that they have taken to be, like Balrogs. This was all brought up in a discussion that the professor had with an individual who asked about Orcs and if they have souls. He goes on to imply that were Orcs left to their own devices for a long enough period of time they would probably develop into quite decent creatures, but as Dragons apparently live long and reproduce infrequently I would suspect that the length of time that it would take for them to develop societies and laws and such would be very very long...


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## Beleg Strongbow (Jan 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ReadWryt _
> *Actually Grond, Tolkien's take on that is that no creature in Middle-earth was inherantly evil. If you like I can find you the quote from the letters, but the gyst of it is this. Melkor could not create anything out of nothing, he had to have subverted some creature into being his servant...as with Trolls, Orcs and Uruk-hai...or else some being of higher order would have to take form as an evil creature to be an outward manifestation of the evil that they have taken to be, like Balrogs. This was all brought up in a discussion that the professor had with an individual who asked about Orcs and if they have souls. He goes on to imply that were Orcs left to their own devices for a long enough period of time they would probably develop into quite decent creatures, but as Dragons apparently live long and reproduce infrequently I would suspect that the length of time that it would take for them to develop societies and laws and such would be very very long... *






Smaug wanted to kill all the people behind the robbery including the people who sent Bilbo/. So he mucked around with him trying to find out what he wanted. Once he new or thought that Bilbo came from Lake Town he went to try and kill him and then to kill the ones who sent him!


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## Grond (Jan 26, 2002)

ReadWryt, either you misunderstood me or I will have to disagree with you. I didn't mean to infer that Dragon-stock began as something inherently evil. What I meant was that in corrupting whatever beginning breed it was, Melkor corrupted Glaurung which led to a breed that was basically inherently evil by default. I doubt that there were more than three or four generations from Glaurung to Ancalagon to Smaug and the evil instilled into the race would have been inherent for many, many tallies of years. They did not reproduce and die as the orcs. So I will admit that Glaurung was probably not inherently evil, but his offspring would have been for thousands of years to come. At least that is IMHO.


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## Glory (Feb 8, 2002)

I think there are nice dragons but like it happens on humans some of them are evils but that doesn't mean that all dragon kind are evils


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## Beleg Strongbow (Feb 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Glory _
> *I think there are nice dragons but like it happens on humans some of them are evils but that doesn't mean that all dragon kind are evils *





Well every dragon i have heard of has been evil and snaug is one of them look at the people he killed at erebor and dain and lake town???


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## Úlairi (Mar 4, 2002)

Have any of you guys got a cat and when it catches a mouse, sometimes it will play with it, I know my cat does. I belive Smaug had two purposes of his queer and peculiar attitude towards his food. One, Smaug wanted Bilbo to come nearer, and two he was having a little fun with Bilbo, playing with his head, just lijke some cats do to mice!


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## Bucky (Mar 8, 2002)

A couple points to Grond;

1. Where do you get the information to conclude that Glaurung was bigger & meaner than Smaug?

2. In Smaug's eyes, Erebor WAS his home & Bilbo was a thief.


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## Grond (Mar 8, 2002)

Bucky, I'm not sure to what post you refer. I have reread them all and can't find where I've made that statement. I'm sure that Smaug and Glaurung were of similar size while of course Ancalagon was the biggest dragon that has ever been.

I also made my point very clear. Someone who is hired by the rightful owner of spoils might be called a "bounty hunter" but never a thief. Smaug had stolen the rightful goods of Thror/Thrain/Thorin. So Thorin, being the surviving heir to the throne of Erebor would be the rightful owner of the gold in question and entitled under no penalty of law to attempt to reaquire what was wrongfully stolen. 

All that is clearly explained in Middle-earth Legal Concepts 101 which is offered at the Tolkien University in Dale.


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## Bucky (Mar 8, 2002)

Of course Thorin was 'legally' the owner. 
But, weren't you guys looking at this from a Dragon's perspective?
It sure looked that way to me.

BTW, 'read it & weep':

>>>If you'll read the Silmarillion, you'll find an interesting conersation
occurs between Turin and Glaurung the Dragon. Very similar to the dialogue
between Bilbo and Smaug (of course Glaurung was much bigger and meaner,
being the Father of Dragons).


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## Grond (Mar 8, 2002)

Bucky, Glaurung was not necessarily bigger than Smaug just because he was the Father of the Dragons. Heck, he couldn't even fly. He was first described as a great slithering worm and Ancalagon and his brethren were the first Winged Dragons to emerge from Melkor's domain.

Yes, the premise of the thread was wouldn't you be upset if someone was breaking into your home to steal your treasure. I was simply pointing out that Smaug himself knew that the gains were ill-gotten and would have behaved exactly as you described... which is exactly as I described earlier in the thread.


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## Durin of moria (Mar 8, 2002)

ok Glaurung was not the greatest dragon ever nor was Smaug. the greatest dragon ever was
Ancalagon 'rushing jaws ' the first winged fire drake

this is from the tolkien beastiary


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## Grond (Mar 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Durin of moria _
> *ok Glaurung was not the greatest dragon ever nor was Smaug. the greatest dragon ever was
> Ancalagon 'rushing jaws ' the first winged fire drake
> 
> this is from the tolkien beastiary *


The Tolkien beastiary provides some nice information but is another person's opinions about the creatures of Middle-earth and is not always correct; however, in this case, it is correct. As I stated at the top of this page, Ancalagon was the "biggest" dragon ever and being the biggest and the first "winged" dragon as stated in my previous post, he would be the "greatest" dragon. One doesn't need the bestiary to discern Ancalagon. From _The Silmarillion, Of the Voyage of Earendil,_

*"...But he [Melkor] loosed upon his foes the last desperate assualt that he had prepared, and out of the pits of Angband there issued the winged dragons, that had not before been seen; and so sudden and ruinous was the onset of that dreadful fleet that the host of the Valar was driven back, for the coming of the dragons was with great thunder, and lightning, and a tempest of fire.

But Earendil came, shining with white flame, and about Vingilot were gathered all the great birds of heaven and Thorondor was their captain, and there was battle in the air all the day and through a dark night of doubt. Before the rising of the sun Earendil slew Ancalagon the Black, the mightiest of the dragon-host, and cast him from the sky; and he fell upon the towers of Thangorodrim, and they were broken in his ruin..."*

Seek and ye shall find.


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## Bucky (Mar 8, 2002)

Grond,
I hate to beat a dead dragon, but do you realize the quote I put after 'read it & weep' was from YOUR first post on this thread?

As an aside, that bit with Earendil fighting Ancalagon in his boat in the air is (to me) one of those absurd things I'd rather overlook in the history of ME.

Like where the sun & moon came from......


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## chrysophalax (Mar 19, 2002)

There'll be no beating of dragons dead or otherwise!


Ulairi, from personal experience I totally agree with your post.


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## Lillyaundra (Mar 19, 2002)

And that is straight from the dragons mouth!!! hehe


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