# Should Bilbo have felt more of an adverse effect of using the Ring? Compared 2 Frodo?



## Sammyboy (Sep 9, 2006)

Please excuse the use of the number '2' at the end of the title, I was a character short with the max length of the title!

I'm currently re-reading The Hobbit, it's just dawned on my how much Bilbo uses the Ring, and for extended lengths of time too. Considering the effect that having and using the Ring had on Frodo, surely Bilbo would have felt more negative effects/emotions of using the Ring so much?

Could it be an error by Tolkien? (I hope not!) Or was it that at the time of The Hobbit taking place the Ring was still regaining it's power, or simply that it didn't have such an effect on Bilbo because of the distance it was from Mordor?

Hope this isn't a silly question, I have a funny feeling this may be explained in LoTR, but that's next on my re-reading list!


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## Alcuin (Sep 9, 2006)

*Re: Should Bilbo have felt more of an adverse effect of using the Ring? Compared 2 Fr*

From the standpoint of writing the story, as story-teller, Tolkien had no notion when writing _The Hobbit_ that the Ring was anything other than an item that happened to make Bilbo invisible. It was later, when tying together the new story that became _The Lord of the Rings_ that the Ring took on its dark significance.

Within the Tale, however, the fact that Bilbo took so little hurt from it was remarkable: so remarkable that Gandalf remarks upon it in “Shadow of the Past” in _Fellowship of the Ring_:


> ‘...as I know there is no Power in the world that knows all about hobbits. ... Soft as butter they can be, and yet sometimes as tough as old tree-roots. I think it likely that some would resist the Rings far longer than most of the Wise would believe. I don’t think you need worry about Bilbo.
> 
> ‘Of course, he possessed the ring for many years, and used it, so it might take a long while for the influence to wear off – before it was safe for him to see it again, for instance. Otherwise, he might live on for years, quite happily: just stop as he was when he parted with it. For he gave it up in the end of his own accord: an important point...’


The Ring did not turn Bilbo into a wraith, not had it completely consumed Gollum in 400 or 500 years (_ibidem_):


> Even Gollum was not wholly ruined. He had proved tougher than even one of the Wise would have guessed – as a hobbit might.


Frodo was stabbed, stung, starved, and strained to his last strength: only while lost and hungry in Mirkwood, fighting the spiders, was Bilbo in such straights. (Ok, and when he first got the Ring and had to follow Gollum to the passage leading to the goblins’ Back Door.) But at no time was Bilbo physically stressed as much as Frodo, or mentally or spiritually assaulted in the same way. Bilbo had a trinket: a useful (and profitable!) trinket, but not a matter of world importance to him. Frodo set out from Rivendell to destroy this thing, a danger to the world and to all that he loved and cherished, an act that the Ring was apparently specially designed to prevent its bearer from doing were it separated from Sauron. (Isildur, Sméagol, Bilbo and Frodo all referred to the Ring as “precious.”) Again, from the same source,


> ‘A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. _It_ may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handing it on to someone else’s care – and that only at an early stage, when it first begins to grip. But as far as I know, Bilbo alone in history has ever gone beyond playing, and really done it.


(I wonder if Gandalf spoke from personal experience about the slipping off bit. And it is notable that Círdan the Shipwright gave the Ring Narya to Gandalf: _Círdan_ was a keeper who gave up a Ring of Power. Perhaps the Three Rings, which Sauron never touched, were not inflicted with this spell of possessiveness, because Celebrimbor was able to give _them_ up to Gil-galad and Galadriel, but not the other sixteen Great Rings.) 

I think it was the constant stress, worry, and knowledge that he was trying, or supposed to be trying, to destroy the thing that wore on Frodo: the Ring was trying to preserve itself: and in the end, the Ring conquered Frodo. This was unavoidable, as Tolkien explains in Letter 181:


> [Frodo] is in a sense doomed to failure, doomed to fall to temptation or be broken by pressure against his ‘will’: that is against any choice he could make or would make unfettered, not under duress.


Bilbo was never under that kind of duress, and was able to give up the Ring only with considerable and painful (for both of them!) assistance from Gandalf, who was acting in an angelic capacity to offset the evil, possessive influence of the Ring to overpower Bilbo’s will. Gandalf performed this same function for Frodo at Amon Hen, when Sauron was searching for him. But in the Sammath Naur, where “all other powers … were subdued” (_Return of the King_, “Mount Doom”), Frodo was alone and by himself, unaided. Even Galadriel’s phial could not provide any light there. Frodo was on his own, and his will was broken, his person overcome, by the malevolent power of the Ring. 

After his adventure ended, Bilbo was well-fed, comfortable, safe (and undiscovered), and fabulously wealthy so that he could have anything he wished: except peace from the Ring, which made him “‘feel all thin, sort of _stretched_, … like butter that has been scraped over too much bread.’” (“A Long-Expected Party”, _Fellowship of the Ring_) Gandalf repeated these words to Frodo: “‘…[Bilbo] was getting restless and uneasy. _Thin and stretched_ he said. A sign the ring was getting control.’” (“Shadow of the Past” in _Fellowship of the Ring_) But from the day Gandalf first told Frodo about the true nature of the Ring, Frodo was determined to destroy it, and so set himself at odds with the Ring from the start:


> ‘I do really wish to destroy it!’ cried Frodo. ‘Or, well, to have it destroyed. I was not made for perilous quests…’


Much, much more about this can be said, and I hope it will be said in this thread by others.


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## Sammyboy (Sep 9, 2006)

Some excellent points there, Alcuin!

The main one perhaps being that Bilbo didn't know what he had as you say, he thought he had a 'magic' ring, not a ring of ultimate power! And I don't think he ever knew what that ring's true pupose was, did he? Frodo knew exactly what this ring was and it's purpose, and it's importance to events that were happening (and could potentially happen if a certain person got hold of it!)

So, before he did give the ring up to Gandalf he was just starting to be 'taken' by it anyway, especially when pressed by Gandalf to give it up leading to the 'Do not take me for a conjurer of cheap tricks' speech. 

Btw, can you edit your own title, as I don't seem to be able to. Just looked at it again and it's actually pretty awful English!


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## Alcuin (Sep 9, 2006)

*Re: Should Bilbo have felt more of an adverse effect of using the Ring? Compared 2 Fr*



Sammyboy said:


> So, before he did give the ring up to Gandalf he was just starting to be 'taken' by it anyway, especially when pressed by Gandalf to give it up leading to the 'Do not take me for a conjurer of cheap tricks' speech.


Bilbo did not “give the ring up to Gandalf”, he gave it up to Frodo of his own free will. Because the Ring was trying to overpower his free will, Gandalf intervened to strengthen him; neither Bilbo nor Gandalf found the experience a pleasant one. As one of the Istari, Gandalf was forbidden to impose his will upon others, but he could act to offset the influence of another, such as Sauron, who was attempting to usurp free will. In Letter 156, Tolkien said that


> [Gandalf] is ... under the obligation of concealing his power and of teaching rather than forcing or dominating wills, but where the physical powers of the Enemy are too great for the good will of the opposers to be effective he can act in emergency as an ‘angel’ – no more violently than the release of St Peter from prison.


He then went on to cite Gandalf’s two rescues of Faramir and his preventing the Lord of the Nazgûl from entering Minas Tirith as two examples of this kind of intercession; but Tolkien is speaking of the powers and restrictions of Gandalf the White, and to this list I think we should add the intercession of Gandalf the Grey in helping Bilbo give up the Ring. 



Sammyboy said:


> Btw, can you edit your own title, as I don't seem to be able to. Just looked at it again and it's actually pretty awful English!


I don’t think you can modify the title of a thread, but I could be mistaken. Perhaps one of the more well-informed members of one of the moderators would be happy to elucidate?


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## Eledhwen (Sep 10, 2006)

*Re: Should Bilbo have felt more of an adverse effect of using the Ring? Compared 2 Fr*

Good to see such an excellent thread on the forum.

Frodo was being hunted and followed by the agents of Mordor from the moment he set off on his quest. Also, he was heading towards the Ring's source of power and, as Alcuin points out, did not fail until he had been through terrible trials and was stood at the centre of Sauron's domain - even the crucible wherein the Ring was made. It was at that point where Bilbo's and Frodo's mercy towards Gollum caused the task to be completed; as Gollum had survived to get at Frodo and inadvertently cause the Ring's destruction. So, not only did Bilbo's mercy protect him from great hurt and help him to give up the Ring before it consumed him; it also played a part in the Ring's ultimate destruction.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Sep 11, 2006)

Sammyboy said:


> ...Considering the effect that having and using the Ring had on Frodo, surely Bilbo would have felt more negative effects/emotions of using the Ring so much?
> 
> Could it be an error by Tolkien?



I think on the whole that some of the reasons the Ring had comparitively little effect on Bilbo was that (1) he was a pretty naive/purehearted fellow, (2) only used the ring rarely, and that was to avoid obnoxious relatives, and (3) most importantly, was never weakened in body and soul as was Frodo on his journey. I think it likely that the combat-strength stress put on Frodo weakened him to the point where the Ring affected him so strongly — to say nothing of the fact that Bilbo never got anywhere near Mt. Doom, as did Frodo. Indeed, he spent most of his latter years in the healing environment of Rivendell. Frodo underwent the effects of "claw, fang and tooth."

Barley


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## Sammyboy (Sep 11, 2006)

Barliman Butterbur said:


> I think on the whole that some of the reasons the Ring had comparitively little effect on Bilbo was that (1) he was a pretty naive/purehearted fellow, (2) only used the ring rarely, and that was to avoid obnoxious relatives, and (3) most importantly, was never weakened in body and soul as was Frodo on his journey. I think it likely that the combat-strength stress put on Frodo weakened him to the point where the Ring affected him so strongly — to say nothing of the fact that Bilbo never got anywhere near Mt. Doom, as did Frodo. Indeed, he spent most of his latter years in the healing environment of Rivendell. Frodo underwent the effects of "claw, fang and tooth."
> 
> Barley


 
I thought Bilbo used the ring a lot more than Frodo did, he had it on whilst escaping from the Goblins and Gollum, at times whilst fighting the spiders, and for a long time whilst hiding in the Wood Elves' halls, not daring to take it off for very long periods? Also of course whilst sneaking around Smaug, sneaking the Arkenstone to Dale, etc.

Though eveything else I agree with, being naive and blissfully unaware of the ring's true purpose, and that Bilbo was usually in good health, the worst he got I believe is whilst in Mirkwood due to a lack of food, but nowhere near as worn down, battered, bruised and weighed down with responsibility As Frodo was.


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## DGoeij (Sep 11, 2006)

As Alcuin so clearly pointed out, you shouldn't forget the serious difference between the Hobbit and LOTR in the view of our beloved writer. At the time of the Hobbit, in his view, the ring was a ring that made you invisible. How and when this notion changed I'm not too sure of, but Tolkiens perception of the ring did change quite a lot and with it the impact it had on his main characters. Writing stories is an active process and the years between the creation of the Hobbit and LOTR were not few. Besides, Tolkien himself felt he was discovering Middle Earth, not inventing it, so he became more and more aware of ME and its features during the writing of LOTR.

I also wonder if perhaps the awareness of Sauron himself might have been of influence. During the days of the Hobbit, Sauron is preparing a strike of some sort. I'm going from memory here, I do not have the time to look it all up. Sauron was active, but not yet aware that his Ring had been found. So perhaps this lack of attention from his side, made the Ring somewhat less of a malice to Bilbo? Off course, by the time Frod started to use it actively (some years after Bolbo left it to him), Sauron was searching for it and, since his reatreat from Dol Guldur to Mordor, had grown in strength quite a lot. I think this does count for some of the difference in effect it had on Bolbo and Frodo.


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## Sammyboy (Sep 11, 2006)

So it could well have been an oversight by JRRT, but easily explained by the fact Sauron was weaker and not looking for the ring whilst Bilbo had/used it, plus he was a long way from Mordor and under comparitively no stress.

It makes a lot more sense now, thanks all for your interesting and thought-provoking input! 

Any further thoughts anyone, though I think it's been quite well explained so far


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## Aglarband (Mar 13, 2007)

*Re: Should Bilbo have felt more of an adverse effect of using the Ring? Compared 2 Fr*

I'd have to say no for a few reasons. Sauron was preoccupied by the White Council's attack on his stronghold at that time. Two, I have a feeling Bilbo was much tougher than Frodo. This may be affected by the fact that Frodo was stabbed rather quickly into his ownership of the Ring, the Ringwraiths were after him, and he was moving REALLY close to Mordor/Sauron in comparison to Bilbo.

And as previously stated of the reasons few "adverse" affects were present in Bilbo's journey was Tolkien had no intention of Bilbo's ring being the One Ring.


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## Noldor_returned (Mar 13, 2007)

I too say no because Suaron's strength was not as large as when Frodo used it. Sure, he was powerful but much of his strength returned when he moved back into Mordor.

Another reason is that the mindset of Bilbo was different from Frodo. Frodo knew what possessed the ring, whereas Bilbo had no clue. Sure, it still had an effect on him, but not as serious, possibly because he didn't realise the potential danger. Frodo, on the other hand, was fully aware of what he was up against, and when he used it had to battle stronger and more enemies. So Frodo had more of a strain controlling his own will, whereas Bilbo didn't.


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## Melian Le Fay (May 27, 2007)

*Re: Should Bilbo have felt more of an adverse effect of using the Ring? Compared 2 Fr*

This is an excellent thread!!!

You guys have given some deep thought as to the discrepancies (if could be called so) of the ring's effect on Bilbo and then Frodo.

But I would have to disagree with the notion that Tolkien made a mistake of sorts (seeing how he was writing "The Hobbit" not knowing what "The Lord Of The Rings" would bring)... I think that the idea of Sauron's awareness of the ring's return, as well as the circumstances were well composed into the story, thus allowing for the different effect of the ring on the two Hobbits. 

I always felt that in "The Hobbit", the ring was 'waiting' for the right time to show its presence and consume its bearer... Waiting for Sauron's strength to return to full power, and thus thwart any attempt of its destruction... And that could (as well as your guys' comments) explain why it had such a weak influence on Bilbo in "The Hobbit".

Later, at the beginning or "The Lord Of The Rings", Tolkien carefully weaves in the ring's growing influence by portraying Bilbo as 'restless' and 'feeling worn out'... You can just feel the growing restlessness and things slowly getting into motion... Because Sauron had started acting, and the ring responded, because the right time has come.

So, to reiterate, I don't think Tolkien made a mistake, I think he 'covered' all the possible loopholes very successfully and wisely, giving the story an even greater depth...


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## Thorin (May 27, 2007)

*Re: Should Bilbo have felt more of an adverse effect of using the Ring? Compared 2 Fr*

I will have to agree with DG on this one.

I believe that Sauron's awareness of the ring's existence and that, as Gandalf says, 'He seeks it with all his thought' and 'the ring wants to be found', means that in 'these dark days' the power of the ring and its effects on the user intensified. Gollum was definitely a wretch from the effects of the ring but he had it for 500 years in less troubling times.


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## Ancalagon (May 27, 2007)

*Re: Should Bilbo have felt more of an adverse effect of using the Ring? Compared 2 Fr*

I would agree with Aglarband, the point made that the closer the Ring comes to it's point of creation, the more it grows in Power. In doing so it becomes the greater burden for Frodo both physically and mentally and thus takes much more of a toll upon him in the short term particularly after being pierced by the Morgul blade. 

However, the Ring itself never diminished in Power and as Gandalf stated to Frodo when describing the Ring and Gollum, he suggests that the Ring gave him power according to his stature causing him to grow in spite and malice. The same can be said for Frodo and Bilbo as to how it would impact upon them although never dragging them into the depth of despair that afflicted Gollum 

Bear in mind that Bilbo's use of the Ring was very limited as was Gollum's even over much of his time particularly in The Misty Mountains were he seldom used it. But both suffered greatly as a result of wielding the Ring, more-so than Frodo ever did. Both Gollum and Bilbo were more deeply drawn to and bound by the Ring simply as a result of longevity of ownership. 

The effects of this ownership were borne more on the psychological incapacity to be free of the ring, thus Frodo was the stronger. Whereas Frodo appeared more physically bruised in carrying it closer to its master, he was not bound in the same way Bilbo and Gollum were.


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## Melian Le Fay (May 27, 2007)

*Re: Should Bilbo have felt more of an adverse effect of using the Ring? Compared 2 Fr*

Comparing the ring's effect on Gollum, Bilbo and Frodo, beside the longevity of ownership and the harshness of circumstances, we should also take in consideration the very character of the person in question. Their inner strength, morality... Frodo or Bilbo were nothing like Smeagol, and therefore their strong moral guidance helped them endure the ring's influence longer and better than Gollum....


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## HLGStrider (May 27, 2007)

*Re: Should Bilbo have felt more of an adverse effect of using the Ring? Compared 2 Fr*

I don't know if this is even possible but could Bilbo's lack of awareness to the ring's true power have something to do with it's lack of ability to fully corrupt him? Unlike Frodo and Isildur Bilbo was never presented with the true depth of the ring's abilities/danger. Hence the ring's primary temptation (power) only presented itself to him in a petty form. The same would've been true for Gollum, but as it has been pointed out, Gollum lasted for much longer than Frodo.

The said, I agree with what has already been said.
A. The influence of the ring is affected by the waxing and waning of Sauron's power.
B. The influence of the ring is worsened in Frodo's case by outside events (ie Morgul wounds).
C. The influence of the ring is worsened by proximity to Mordor and its agents.


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## Melian Le Fay (May 28, 2007)

*Re: Should Bilbo have felt more of an adverse effect of using the Ring? Compared 2 Fr*

Hey, Strider... maybe that's a very good idea - to put all the conclusions in a concise, orderly manner - by a, b, cs... Maybe we could sum up all our thoughts that way?


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