# Did Balin suspect the Ring of being something more?



## Beorn (Nov 22, 2002)

> There they lay for some time, puffing and panting. But very soon they began to ask questions. They had to have the whole vanishing business carefully explained, and the finding of the ring interested them so much that for a while they forgot their own troubles.* Balin in particular insisted on having the Gollum story, riddles and all, told all over again, with the ring in its proper place.* But after a time the light began to fail, and then other questions were asked. Where were they, and where was their path, and where was there any food, and what were they going to do next? .....



We know that Balin wanted to know how Bilbo got passed him while they were outside the Back Door. This quote is from when Bilbo just explained the Ring after the spiders. Anyway, do you suppose Balin suspected that there was more to the Ring than invisibility? I think an explanation that it made you invisible would be enough, but Balin wanted to know exactly how the tale went, with the ring in it's place....

I know this is very far fetched, but what do you think?


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## Maeglin (Nov 22, 2002)

Well I would assume that Balin knew about the 7 Dwarf-rings, but the question is did he know that there was a One Ruling ring? First we must answer this question. And if he did know that a ruling ring existed, then I would say that there is good reason to believe that he was suspicious about it, otherwise, I'd say it was just coincidence.


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## ltas (Nov 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Glorfindel1187 _
> *Well I would assume that Balin knew about the 7 Dwarf-rings, but the question is did he know that there was a One Ruling ring? First we must answer this question. And if he did know that a ruling ring existed, then I would say that there is good reason to believe that he was suspicious about it, otherwise, I'd say it was just coincidence. *



...or... he could have suspected it was one of the lost Dwarf-rings... (Did Bilbo ever actually show others what the ring looked like?)


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## Maeglin (Nov 23, 2002)

I'm not sure if he did, this is the closest thing to saying that he might have actually _shown_ them the ring:



> for they saw that he had some wits, as well as luck and a magic ring......



Its far-fetched but I guess you could look at that as saying that the dwarves actually saw the ring, it all depends on how you decide to interpret it.


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## Wolfshead (Nov 24, 2002)

I think Balin wanted to know all he could about how Bilbo got past him, because he would probably have been a bit annoyed at the Hobbit being able to sneak past him. Maybe he thought the Ring was maybe something more, which let Bilbo get past unseen. But that, I think, is as much as Balin suspected.

And Beorn, why do I think you're currently rereading The Hobbit?


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## Beorn (Nov 24, 2002)

> Well I would assume that Balin knew about the 7 Dwarf-rings, but the question is did he know that there was a One Ruling ring?



Good point. Dwalin was Balin's younger brother. I can't find when Balin was born, but Dwalin was born in III 2772. So, that leaves 250 years (the average lifespan of a dwarf) in the past, and maybe 100 in the future (which is up to Bilbo's adventure) for Balin to be born...

And, we can assume that they knew as much about lore as they did in The Hobbit then...So, I don't think he would've known what it was, only suspected it to be more powerful. I think my above paragraph ousts the idea of him thinking it was the Ruling Ring, but not the idea of him thinking it was a powerful ring...


*hopes post is coherent*

...oh, yeah, I got my data from http://www.glyphweb.com/arda


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## aragil (Nov 24, 2002)

Wasn't Balin a companion of Thrain and Thorin when the former was captured by the Necromancer and his Ring taken from him? Not that any of this would have been in the author's head back in 1937, but it's fun to spread rumors.


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## Hammersmith (Jul 9, 2005)

Doesn't Gandalf say "there are many magic rings in this world" while talking to Bilbo (I think in the beginning of The Hobbit)? Is he referring to the Rings of Power, or maybe other rings? I agree that Thorin is suspicious of Bilbo's ring, though whether he's suspicious of a thing of great power versus a nice and expensive piece of treasure is anyone's guess.

Also, what if the ring itself was seeing in Thorin a suitable creature to enslave, one both greedy and ambitious? Maybe his suspicions were raised by the ring's whispers to him even as it sat in Bilbo's pocket?


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## Thorondor_ (Jul 9, 2005)

> Is he referring to the Rings of Power, or maybe other rings?


I think he must be reffering to "other" rings, I don't think that he would have left Bilbo alone while having a Ring of Power in custody.


> Maybe his suspicions were raised by the ring's whispers to him even as it sat in Bilbo's pocket?


I think it would take the one ring alot of time to influence a dwarf, esspecially if it wasn't in the dwarf's possession.


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## Tar-Elendil13 (Jul 9, 2005)

I am certain that Balin knew that there was more than Bilbo was telling about the ring. I think he even suspected the story he told the dwarves (that Gollum gave the ring as a present) was at least partly untrue. Also, if Balin knew about the battle of Azanulzibar in the dwarf goblin wars and of Thror's ring, he might have hypothesized that goblins fled with it to the misty mountains to where they were captured, especially after he found that Bilbo found what might be Thror's ring. Or perhaps I'm just overanalyzing the whole thing.

TE13


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## Shireman D (Jul 9, 2005)

Thorondor_ said:


> I think it would take the one ring alot of time to influence a dwarf, esspecially if it wasn't in the dwarf's possession.


 
Wasn't the failure of the Dwarven rings part (at least) of Sauron's motive for recovering them? I'm sure that the LOTR Appendices somewhere say that the rings were ineffective because the Dwarf lords were impervious.


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## Thorondor_ (Jul 9, 2005)

Yes, they were very resilient. The only thing the power rings did was to increase their greedyness and the likes.


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## Hammersmith (Jul 10, 2005)

Thorondor_ said:


> Yes, they were very resilient. The only thing the power rings did was to increase their greedyness and the likes.


Therefore surely Thorin should have lusted for the ring, even if all he knew was *shinytreasureshinytreasureshinytreasuremusthaveitkillthehobbit*?


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## HLGStrider (Jul 10, 2005)

I don't know why, but I always saw Balin as being A. the most honorable and B. the most clever of the Dwarves. 

Now, if we accept later stories that the original tell Bilbo tells the dwarves involving a "present" rather than tricking Gollum is a lie, Balin may have had a very good idea that he was being lied to. If so, he would have wanted the story repeated just to be sure of things.


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## Thorondor_ (Jul 10, 2005)

> Therefore surely Thorin should have lusted for the ring, even if all he knew was *shinytreasureshinytreasureshinytreasuremusthaveit killthehobbit*?


Unless this is a trigger-happy dwarf (and I don't think this is the case), the "kill the hobbit" part would occur only after a long time of distant exposure to the ring - imo.


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## ingolmo (Jul 10, 2005)

I don't think Balin did suspect the Ring to be anything more. I just think he wanted to make sure over and over again that an unknown device that makes the wearer invisible was the only way Bilbo got past him. It was his pride of being a good guard.


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## Ingwë (Jul 12, 2005)

I don't think that Balin suspects about the One Ring and Bilbo. But Ithink that there is a chance to suspect about another Ring of Power. We know what happened to the other Rings but did he know that? Did he know that only the One Ring makes the Bearer invisible? If he didn't know I would thought he suspects that Bilbo's Ring is something more. But he didn't suspect the One Ring!


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## Inderjit S (Jul 14, 2005)

I think he just thought it was a magic trinket of no great importance-there were many such things in the world, many of them made by Dwarves.


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## Greenwood (Jul 29, 2005)

I believe Inglomo and Inderjit are correct. Balin's special interest is merely because he was the one on guard that Bilbo slipped past. If we look at the continuation of this section in The Hobbit, on the next page we have the following passage:


> ... He [Bilbo] just sat staring in front of him at the endless trees; and after a while they all fell silent again. All except Balin. Long after the others had stopped talking and shut their eyes, he kept on muttering and chuckling to himself:
> 
> "Gollum! Well I'm blest! So that's how he sneaked past me, is it? Now I know! Just crept quietly along did you, Mr. Baggins? Buttons all over the doorstep! Good old Bilbo -- Bilbo -- Bilbo -- bo -- bo -- bo --" And then he fell asleep, and there was complete silence for a long while.


So there we have the explanation for Balin's special interest clearly explained.

Also, as Aragil mentioned earlier, Tolkien would not have had any thoughts of The One Ring or any of the dwarf's rings in mind when he wrote The Hobbit back in the 1930's. All of that came after the publication of The Hobbit when Tolkien started to write LOTR and Bilbo's ring became the connecting point for the sequel.


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## Aisteru (Aug 19, 2005)

I personally believe that Balin must have suspected the Ring to be something more seeing as his race was controlled by it. Just because the Ring was "Forged in secret" doesn't mean it's evil wasn't unveiled later.


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## Bergolilac (Aug 20, 2005)

I think Balin was affected by the hate and malice poured into the ring by an evil god/devil, though not much.

The symptons of being drawn to the ring first seem to start with curiosity and though the necromancer would have been aware of the discovery of the ring, he would not have the power to know what was going on or to do anything about it. So this curiosity would mostly be normal dwarven curiosity at such a precious object, just the normal amount of materialism within a dwarf, slightly heightenned, but not really affecting Balin much.

He probably would have rememberred the ring, but not obsessively. I think anyone who has seen the ring, even if they did not know of it's importance, would have rememberred it for the rest of their lives considerring it's effect on people. Occasionally he would sit there and think about the ring, what a curious ring, I wonder what I could gain if I had that ring, never getting hugely obsessed with it, just wanting to know what the ring was. Like those humans who were affected by it in the prancing pony, they might forget about the strange dissapearing hobbit, but that ring...


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## Richard (Aug 22, 2005)

I don't think the dwarves ever mentioned the 7 rings to any one. If Balin had suspicisions he kept it to himself.


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## Greenwood (Aug 22, 2005)

As has been pointed out, the whole question is moot since at the time Tolkien wrote The Hobbit, he had not thought up the seven rings!


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## Forgotten Path (Aug 24, 2005)

I'm with Greenwood on this one. Remember, even if Tolkien had thought of the Rings of Power at this point, The Hobbit is still an "innocent children's story" when compared with The L.R. The main object of lust in The Hobbit is the Arkenstone.


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## Aglarband (Aug 25, 2005)

I think it should be noted by both sides of the argument that Balin was the one who went to Moria to find one of the Seven. This should not be over looked. I wish there was the 5 given to Hobbits, that would have been funny.. Then it would have made more sense too,1 3 5 7 9.


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## Inderjit S (Aug 27, 2005)

How do we know the Dwarvish rings conferred invisbility? It seems that they didn't. Also, as Greenwood has pointed out, the History of the Rings wasn't invented when The Hobbit was written. Also, Balin isn't really sure about the functions of the Elven Rings anyway, so I doubt he had any ring lore, and I doubt he would have put the two together. (That Bilbo had stumbled upon a great ring.)


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## Grond (Sep 5, 2005)

HLGStrider said:


> I don't know why, but I always saw Balin as being A. the most honorable and B. the most clever of the Dwarves.
> 
> Now, if we accept later stories that the original tell Bilbo tells the dwarves involving a "present" rather than tricking Gollum is a lie, Balin may have had a very good idea that he was being lied to. If so, he would have wanted the story repeated just to be sure of things.


Elgee, my dear, one of Balin's main reasons for returning to Moria was his hope to locate Thror's Ring.


from The Fellowship of the Ring said:


> ...Other rings there may be, less treacherous, that might be used in our need. The Seven are lost to us -- if Balin has not found the ring of Thror which was the last; naught has been heard of it since Thror perished in Moria. Indeed I may now reveal that it was partly in hope to find that ring that Balin went away...


So, maybe Balin had a little of the dwarvish greed and wasn't quite the noble soul you make him out to be...

Cheers,

grond


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## HLGStrider (Sep 5, 2005)

I don't see going after the dwarvish ring as being particularly ignoble. Perhaps a bit greedy, but it would be a relic of honor. As the dwarven rings did not bring the dwarves to total corruption, I doubt they ever saw them as being ignoble at all. Moreof, Balin would consider it an heirloom, a badge of honor, and a precious relic.


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## Grond (Sep 14, 2005)

HLGStrider said:


> I don't see going after the dwarvish ring as being particularly ignoble. Perhaps a bit greedy, but it would be a relic of honor. As the dwarven rings did not bring the dwarves to total corruption, I doubt they ever saw them as being ignoble at all. Moreof, Balin would consider it an heirloom, a badge of honor, and a precious relic.


It was gold which beget more gold. A very good reason for a dwarf to go a hunting. Remember that revenge was only part of the reason that the original Hobbit expedition took place. It was just as important to the Dwarves to regain their great wealth. (And remember, Dwarves are depicted by Tolkien as being greedy. Look what happened to good ole Thorin Oakenshield even without a Dwarf Ring of Power!)

Cheers,

grond


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## spirit (Sep 15, 2005)

I have a feeling that lore about the rings wasn't common knowledge at that time... while Balin might know about the Seven, the One would be only a legend to him.


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