# Gandalfs Staff



## Maeglin (Dec 14, 2002)

*Gandalf's Staff*

Gandalf jumped off of the top of the Tower of Orthanc, but surely Saruman did not give him his staff and say go up to the roof now so I can leave you there forever and Gandalf listened, so how did he get his staff back after escaping Isengard?


*I have merged the threads of Kahmul and Glorfindel1187 as they are on the same subject.

Gothmog*


----------



## Niniel (Dec 14, 2002)

I'm sure there must be a thread about this. I think he made another staff, since it's made of wood he could just make a new one. The only problem is the thing that's in it (I mean the thing that in the film is shown as the glowing stone in Moria). It must be something magical that wasn't easy to replace, so I have no idea about that.


----------



## Ithrynluin (Dec 14, 2002)

Opinions differ on this subject. Some say the staff only had symbolic value as an item of power and nobility (similar to the sceptres of kings), and others claim that it was irreplaceable and was the source of power for the wizards.

Did Gandalf lose his staff after being imprisoned in Isengard?


----------



## Maeglin (Dec 14, 2002)

Well I would assume so cause do you really think that Saruman would leave Gandalf on his roof with his staff still in his hand?


----------



## Ithrynluin (Dec 14, 2002)

How exactly did Saruman take the staff from Gandalf? They are both Maiar, and even though Saruman was the head of the Order, Gandalf is not a little child from whom you can take candy just like that.


----------



## Anamatar IV (Dec 14, 2002)

Is it even ever said _how_ saruman imprisoned Gandalf? I sincerely hope it wasnt like they did it in the movie.


----------



## Maeglin (Dec 14, 2002)

Well maybe Gandalf left it at the door along with his coat when he came in.

Well Anamatar it says nothing about a big fight in the book(not that I can remember anyway) but Gandalf was imprisoned on the roof of Orthanc, but in the book there was a very narrow staircase outside of the tower that he could have climbed down if he wished, but if he fell he'd sorta be dead, so he didn't do that.


----------



## Ithrynluin (Dec 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Glorfindel1187 _
> *Well maybe Gandalf left it at the door along with his coat when he came in.*



Oh yes, any visitor to Isengard had to ring the bell at the front door, and was then admitted inside by Saruman's personal butler/footman. They took the visitor's coats and any other "needless" baggage and showed them into the drawing room to offer them some tea.

Oh I'm being silly.


----------



## lightingstrike (Dec 15, 2002)

*He did not jump.*

At least in the movie, he din't jump. A giant eagle came after he had sent it a message with a sort of insect. I know that he definetly either made another staff or got his old one back becase he use it on several occasians after that like pointing to the elven language on the door to the mines of Moria.


----------



## Maeglin (Dec 15, 2002)

Well yes that is apparent, but the question being addressed here is _how_ he got his staff back.


----------



## Celebthôl (Dec 15, 2002)

No, No, No, No, No, No, No, he has a different staff when hes in Rivendell, i have heard this type of thing before, he looses it at Isenguard, and gets another one at Rivendell!

Thôl


----------



## Mablung (Dec 15, 2002)

I guess Elrond was just keeping a spare for him.


----------



## LoreMaster (Dec 15, 2002)

If I recall correctly, the book never indicates that Saruman took Gandalf's staff. Also, there wasn't any insect that visited Gandalf before the eagle. In the book, Saruman had the third wizard Radagast send Gandalf to him, although Radagast was unaware of Saruman's plans. Gandalf told Radagast to have his friends among the beasts and birds send any new tidings about how the Nine were searching for the Shire to Saruman and he. The eagle visited Gandalf after he was imprisoned to bear news but ended up taking him for a ride.


----------



## Kelonus (Dec 15, 2002)

All I know in the FOTR, they fought and Saruman one. With his powers he took Gandalfs staff and then lifted him to the roof. I dont know how he got his staff back.


----------



## Maeglin (Dec 15, 2002)

Yes yes we know all of that! And I know that it is never directly stated that Saruman took Gandalf's staff, but I sincerely do not think that he is stupid enought to leave Gandalf on his roof with his staff.


----------



## Celebthôl (Dec 15, 2002)

i thought Gandalf in the film sent that moth to get Gwahir (sp) or whoever it was to help him escape.

Thôl


----------



## LoreMaster (Dec 15, 2002)

I'm not going by the movie, but rather by the book. In the book, Saruman and Gandalf do not fight with their staffs. When Gandalf does not join with Saruman, he is taken to the top by some method which he did not relate when he spoke to the Council of Elrond of what happened to him(the movie does not include this speech).I don't know if his staff would have helped him during his imprisonment. I would think that if Saruman had taken his staff, he would have mentioned it at the Council. 

According to the book, no other animal purposely visits Gandalf before the eagle.


----------



## Gothmog (Dec 16, 2002)

The only points that have valididty in this section of the forum come from the book.

In the Book it is not said that Saruman took the staff from Gandalf. In fact the only reference to this comes from Frodo's dream in the House of Bombadil where he sees in his dream Gandalf pacing on the top of a tower and then a light coming "from his Staff" to show Gwahir where he was.

As a side note. When Gandalf became the "White" and confronted Saruman, he "Asked" Saruman to "surrender" his staff as a pledge of his conduct. He did not Take it but when refused Gandalf "Broke" the staff of Saruman.

It may well be that it is beyond the power of Any Istari to "Take" the staff from another. Gandalf seemed to have only the choice of asking for Saruman to surrener it or to exert the extra power he had been allowed to use and break it.


----------



## Lantarion (Dec 16, 2002)

*cough*!speculation!*cough* 
But no, I think you might be on to something there Goth; although you have zero evidence to prove it! 
Actually, Lightningstrike, Gandalf did jump from Orthanc in the movie; right onto Gwaihir's back! Welcome to the forum! 

But I agree with Glorfindel that, although it is uncertain whether the Istari need the staffs to somehow channel their Maia-energies, I don't think Saruman would have let gandalf keep his staff. BUT I think it could be possible, althuogh this would imply that the staffs did in fact only have symbolic meaning. On the other hand, if the Istari were not allowed, or simply couldn't, perform any such magic that would have somehow magicked Gandalf from the pinnacle, Saruman wouldn't mind Gandalf having something to lean on; no, wait, Saruman was a meanie wasn't he.. AAARGH!


----------



## Niniel (Dec 16, 2002)

Gandalf the White was something completely different from Gandalf the Grey; he was far more powerful than he was before and also far more powerful than Saruman. They were both still Maia, but Gandalf was on a different level than Saruman, since he had already died. He was in essence only a spiritual being (remember that he said to Aragorn & co: "None of you have any weapon that could hurt me"). So as Gandalf the White he could just easily take Saruman's staff. 
As Gandalf the Grey he was weaker than Saruman; I don't know if he was actually weaker in not having the same powers at all, or that he had the same powers but just couldn't use them because he was forbidden by the Valar. Anyway, Saruman could have taken Gandalf's staff, and I don't think he would let Gandalf keep it. Even Háma knew that isn't a smart thing to do: "The staff in the hand of a wizard may be more than a prop for age." So I think Saruman did take Gandalf's staff, but that still leaves unsolved the mistery of how he got a new one...


----------



## Gothmog (Dec 18, 2002)

Lant. While I agree that it is only speculation, (That is what we have most fun with here  ) you are incorrect to say that I have "zero evidence to prove it!" I have "Slight" evidence to prove it. There is in fact more evidence to show that Gandalf's staff was not/could not be taken than there is to support the view that it was.

At no point in the book is it stated or even hinted that the staffs could be "taken" against the will of the Istari. Indeed the only hint given about this question is the dream of Frodo in Bombadil's house and the fact that in the council of Elrond, Gandalf admitted to that dream being true. How accurate it was is left to the reader.

Niniel. If Gandalf could so easily "Take" Saruman's staff, Why did he not do so? The point is that he "Asked" for the staff and when Saruman refused to give it up, Broke it.

One more point about Gandalf being able to remove himself from the top of Orthanc if he had his staff with him. Have a check on Gandalf stuck in a tree in the Hobbit and ready to jump to his death to destroy the Orcs burning the tree.


----------



## Maeglin (Jan 1, 2003)

Well I think I have found the answer to this mystery now, and I believe, after all, that Gandalf did indeed have his staff on top of Orthanc, according to this:



> In the dead night, Frodo lay in a dream without light. Then he saw the young moon rising; under its thin light there loomed before him a black wall of rock, pierced by a dark arch like a great gate. It seemed to Frodo that he was lifted up, and passing over he saw that the rock-wall was a circle of hills, and that within it was a plain, and in the midst of the plain stood a pinnacle of stone, like a vast tower but not made by hands. On its top stood the figure of a man. The moon as it rose seemed to hang for a moment above his head and glistened in his white hair as the wind stirred it. Up from the dark plain below came the crying of fell voices, and the howling of many wolves. Suddenly a shadow, like the shape of great wings, passed across the moon. *The figure lifted his arms and a light flashed from the staff that he wielded.* A mighty eagle swept down and bore him away.




That is a part of Frodo's dream from "in the house of Tom Bombadil", now its only a dream, so I guess we can't be sure, but Frodo's dream, I believe, was exactly what happened to Gandalf as he described it, though I don't remember if he ever mentioned his staff. Anyway, its proof enough for me.


----------



## BlackCaptain (Jan 1, 2003)

Staffs serve as amplifiers for Wizard's magic. They would be very powerul without staffs, but it's a staff that channels it. So gandalf could have structured another staff.
As for the thing in Moria? He puts it on his staff. It's not there in the first place. It could easily be in one of his pockets.


----------



## Calimehtar (Jan 1, 2003)

At Rohan, Gandalf was very uumm.... persistent? on making sure he was able to have his staff when he entered the Golden Hall, It think thats what its called, to speak with Theoden. Then Wormtounge (in the movie, but I think it might have happened in the book too) was like "I told you to take his staff!" Or something like that. 

So anyways, that is just trying to say that Wizard Staffs aren't just symbolic.


----------



## Spartan117 (Jan 3, 2003)

I was told somewere else on the forum, that Gandalf's staff is taken away at Isengard, but he gets a new one (or makes a new one) or something like that after. Also, in the film, people say that his staff actually looks different after Isengard. (I've never actually taken the time to check).


----------



## Maeglin (Jan 3, 2003)

Well... in the film the Two Towers he gets a new staff, but thats because he becomes Gandalf the White instead of the Grey.


----------



## Kahmûl (Mar 15, 2003)

When Gandalf was imprisoned by Saruman, if he got his staff taken from him when he escaped how did he get it back?


----------



## BlackCaptain (Mar 15, 2003)

Try a search... There have been many threads about this i think... I believe however, he was given a new staff at Rivendell, or he just got to keep his staff...


----------



## olorin the maia (Mar 15, 2003)

The movie shows Saruman taking Gandalf's staff, a bit of Hollywood license. No one knows for sure what Saruman did to Gandalf when he was imprisoned. Gandalf never revealed it. Gandalf, however, breaks Saruman's staff when the two meet after Saruman's defeat and the drowning of Isengard.


----------



## pgt (Mar 18, 2003)

Of all the posts I like Goths - it brings up a thin but real reference from the book afterall! Thanks!

Judging from this thread, I think it's pretty clear to me that the staffs impart or amplifiy power and wizards neither give up their staffs nor fabricate replacements. The one illogical part of it that I see is this: 

1) FACT: Saruman (then the ranking leader of the order) has the power to imprison Gandalf.

2) FACT: Gandalf upon being promoted to white status (whith what I always presume to be a new staff provided from Valinor or wherever he went) now essentially 'outranks' Saruman. He has the power to break Suruman's staff (who is fast becoming a shadow of his former self).

This leads me to the following conundrum: Why didn't Saruman simply 'break' Gandalfs staff when he was still cearly El Jefe? For that matter, how can Saruman have sufficient power to imprison but not remove personal armaments like his staff. And nobody mentioned Glamdring (or was it Orcrist?)...?

And finally, at the end does Sharkey have a replacement 'staff' (or simply an oversized walking stick)? And if so, does it convey or amplify any 'power' to him?

A lot of clues here...


----------



## Jesse (Mar 20, 2003)

My guess is he made another staff. It would be impossible to get his old one back. Gandalf the Grey probably put his magic into another staff....


----------

