# Why Couldn't the Elves Travel Freely Between middle-Earth and Aman?



## baragund (Jun 15, 2006)

Well, gang, what do you think?

I understand why Men could not travel to Aman. The presence of the gods was such a powerful force that it would cause Men's lives to burn out quickly, so to speak. Think of lighting a match in a 100% oxygen environment: it would flare up real bright and burn out quickly.

But why couldn't (or didn't) the Elves travel back and forth between the two lands as the mood suited them? Sure, they were summoned to Aman by the Valar but why not be allowed to visit with their kin who chose to remain behind from time to time? I don't think there was any physical thing that prevented them from going back and forth and I don't recall anybody specifically telling them they couldn't leave once they arrived.

I'm thinking of the period before the Darkening of Valinor when Melkor was imprisoned in the Halls of Mandos and the Vanyar, Noldor and Teleri were all getting along together. If free travel were allowed, it sure would have deflated Melkor's later suggestion that the Valar were somehow imprisoning the Eldar and leaving middle-Earth to the dominion of Men.


----------



## Forfirith (Jun 15, 2006)

I may be saying an enormous mistake, but weren't the Elves who were still in Middle-Earth supposed to come finally to Aman ? Maybe the Noldor and Vanyar were simply waiting for them.
Otherwise, I would see another explication, thats is, Belegaer was a bit dangerous, and the Elves, except the Teleri, didn't knew how to navigate as far as I remember...maybe they weren't forbidden but just couldn't...

(Sorry if I'm saying rubbish, but I've had 7 hours of exams today, I'm a bit out..


----------



## Alcuin (Jun 15, 2006)

The Elves of Tol Eressëa were able to travel to Númenor whenever they chose. Glorfindel was able to return to Middle-earth to strengthen those Elves who stayed there in their struggles against Sauron, probably during the Second Age. Whether he arrived in Middle-earth aboard a vessel that departed Avallónë or Alqualondë in the Far West, or Rómenna or Andúnië or Eldalondë in Númenor, might be an interesting question. As far as I know, Tolkien did not specify his means of passage.

But this brings up another point: if the Elves could sail at will from Tol Eressëa to Andúnië or Eldalondë, would anything prevent their sailing on to Lindon? *I don’t recall reading that the Valar forbade the return of the Elves to Middle-earth.* Perhaps the pain of the memory of Beleriand and its ruin, of the slaughter of Elves by Elves, and the overriding Elvish sense of _regret_ that Tolkien says marked their long lives, made returning to Middle-earth a journey of immense sadness for many of them. In addition, any Elf traveling back to Middle-earth would become subject to _fading_, a fate they apparently considered as bad as Men thought of death.

By the way, the transit of Ar-Pharazôn’s armada from the western havens of Númenor to Tol Eressëa and the coastlands of Valinor took quite a while. I cannot find the reference (there is an explicit number of days Tolkien wrote at one point; perhaps someone else can find it), but I think it look 3 or 4 weeks to sail from Númenor to Avallónë, and longer for the rebellious Númenóreans, who had no wind and forced the slaves in their galleys to row. This distance from Númenor to Middle-earth was even farther.



Forfirith said:


> I may be saying an enormous mistake, but weren't the Elves who were still in Middle-Earth supposed to come finally to Aman ? Maybe the Noldor and Vanyar were simply waiting for them.


 Yes, they were. All Elves who died were summoned to Mandos. They might refuse, but while Morgoth abode in Arda, they were unable to avoid his counter-summons. After the expulsion of Morgoth from Arda following the War of Wrath, the peril of a houseless Elf, one whose body had died, was lessened, and Tolkien wrote that they haunted places in Middle-earth that they had known in life; however, there were also “Lingerers” in Middle-earth who had never died but whose bodies had faded completely and were only visible to Men when they chose to reveal themselves. The edict or command by the Valar that all Elves should move to The Uttermost West seems to have been something they could still choose to ignore or refuse.

They do return to Middle-earth for an expedition in Tolkien’s tale “The Smith of Wooten Major”, and under arms, no less.


----------



## Forfirith (Jun 16, 2006)

Alcuin > I wasn't thinking about the death of Elves when I asked if they would finally come to Aman, but I thought of Ulmo bringing the Elves on isles and of those who were left in Middle-earth (the Nandorin and the Sindar if I remember well).
What I find "difficult" in baragund's question is this "when Melkor was imprisoned in the Halls of Mandos and the Vanyar, Noldor and Teleri were all getting along together." ... As I'm thinking if this, why would the Elves want to come back to Middle-earth if they didn't have "relatives" there ? But well, there's the question of the division between the Teleri who were in Tol-Eressëa and those who stayed with Thingol and became Sindar...


----------



## Thorondor_ (Jun 16, 2006)

baragund said:


> I understand why Men could not travel to Aman. The presence of the gods was such a powerful force that it would cause Men's lives to burn out quickly, so to speak. Think of lighting a match in a 100% oxygen environment: it would flare up real bright and burn out quickly.


Well, that is true only on a relative plane; a Man would live the same amount of time in M-E as in Aman, but, compared with other beings there, who indeed have "the blessing of Aman" (such as elves), he has a, relatively, much shorter life, as in the way you described it.


----------



## baragund (Jun 16, 2006)

Good points all around.

I guess I need to stress the setting of the time in question. This is the noontide of the bliss of Valinor. Melkor is imprisoned. There was no Doom of Mandos. This was before the first kinslaying. 

At this time the Teleri were taught the craft of ship building. Why not go back to middle-Earth from time to time to visit their kin the Sindar? Maybe seek out the Nandor and let them know what a great place Aman is? Likewise, if any of the Elves living in Aman got bored living in paradise, was anything stopping them from approaching the Valar in good faith and say something like "Valinor is really nice but we would like our own kingdoms in middle-Earth after after all. But we'll certainly come back to visit!" Something like kids leaving home after they are grown up but still keeping ties with their parents. And with the three kindreds all getting along, I don't see why the Teleri would have a problem with giving a ride to any of the Noldor or even Vanyar who might want a change of scenery.

To answer Forfirith's question about why anyone would want to travel back to m-E, there is the restlessness that characterizes the Noldor. Melkor capitalized on that to foment their rebellion. If they had known beforehand that they were free to come and go as they felt, then that argument would carry no weight. 

Oh, and a hearty welcome to TTF, Forfirith! I hope you are enjoying our little cyber-neighborhood I'm glad to see you diving into the discussion!

Alcuin talks about later times when the Doom of the Noldor makes things more complicated. But he said a couple of things I can't quite follow. 



> All Elves who died were summoned to Mandos. They might refuse, but while Morgoth abode in Arda, they were unable to avoid his counter-summons.



Umm, I didn't know Elves who died had the ability to refuse Mandos' summons to his halls. Where would they go otherwise? Also, can you explain what Morgoth's "counter-summons" is and how it relates to the Elves when they die? (I know this is off the topic but I'm scratching my head on this.)


----------



## Thorondor_ (Jun 16, 2006)

baragund said:


> Umm, I didn't know Elves who died had the ability to refuse Mandos' summons to his halls. Where would they go otherwise? Also, can you explain what Morgoth's "counter-summons" is and how it relates to the Elves when they die? (I know this is off the topic but I'm scratching my head on this.)


Well, I think Alcuin is reffering to this passage from the Later Quenta Silmarillion, HoME X:


Of the rebirth and other dooms of those who go to Mandos said:


> The fea is single, and in the last impregnable. It cannot be brought to Mandos. It is summoned; and the summons proceeds from just authority, and is imperative; yet it may be refused. Among those who refused the summons (or rather invitation) of the Valar to Aman in the first years of the Elves, refusal of the summons to Mandos and the Halls of Waiting is, the Eldar say, frequent. It was less frequent, however, in ancient days, while Morgoth was in Arda, or his servant Sauron after him; for then the fea unbodied would flee in terror of the Shadow to any refuge - unless it were already committed to the Darkness and passed then into its dominion. In like manner even of the Eldar some who had become corrupted refused the summons, and then had little power to resist the counter- summons of Morgoth.


----------



## Alcuin (Jun 16, 2006)

Thank you, *Thorondor_*. Yes, that is the passage I recalled.


----------



## baragund (Jun 16, 2006)

Whoa!! Cool stuff! Thanks so much for providing that, Thorondor! 

I happen to be reading HOME X but I haven't gotten to that part yet. Can't wait to delve into it...


----------



## Gothmog (Jul 3, 2006)

baragund said:


> Good points all around.
> 
> I guess I need to stress the setting of the time in question. This is the noontide of the bliss of Valinor. Melkor is imprisoned. There was no Doom of Mandos. This was before the first kinslaying.
> 
> At this time the Teleri were taught the craft of ship building. Why not go back to middle-Earth from time to time to visit their kin the Sindar? Maybe seek out the Nandor and let them know what a great place Aman is? Likewise, if any of the Elves living in Aman got bored living in paradise, was anything stopping them from approaching the Valar in good faith and say something like "Valinor is really nice but we would like our own kingdoms in middle-Earth after after all. But we'll certainly come back to visit!" Something like kids leaving home after they are grown up but still keeping ties with their parents. And with the three kindreds all getting along, I don't see why the Teleri would have a problem with giving a ride to any of the Noldor or even Vanyar who might want a change of scenery.


At the time in question, all Elves had leave to return to M-e if they wished with nothing to prevent them visiting Aman later. However, there is another question to this.

Until Melkor caused unrest amongst the Noldor few if any felt the desire to leave the light of Aman and return to the darkness of M-e. So, rather than being "Unable" they were unwilling to travel to M-e.

Manwe indeed told the Noldor that they were not prevented from leaving Aman and until the time of the kinslaying and the Doom of the Noldor there was no reason for the Valar to prevent free movement of the Elves. The defences of Aman were aimed at preventing Melkor and his followers from bringing war to Aman.

I don't have my books with me at the moment but I will try to post the quote soon.


----------



## Thorondor_ (Jul 3, 2006)

> Until Melkor caused unrest amongst the Noldor few if any felt the desire to leave the light of Aman and return to the darkness of M-e


Well, I think it is a matter of debate:


Of Eldamar and the princes of Eldalie said:


> But the memory of Middle-earth under the stars remained in the hearts of the Noldor, and they abode in the Calacirya, and in the hills and valleys within sound of the western sea; and though many of them went often about the land of the Valar, making far journeys in search of the secrets of land and water and all living things, yet the peoples of Tuna and Alqualonde drew together in those days





> Manwe indeed told the Noldor that they were not prevented from leaving Aman and until the time of the kinslaying and the Doom of the Noldor there was no reason for the Valar to prevent free movement of the Elves.


I agree:


Of the flight of the Noldor said:


> No aid will the Valar lend you in this quest; but neither will they hinder you; for this ye shall know: as ye came hither freely, freely shall ye depart





Of the silmarils and the unrest of the noldor said:


> The Valar had brought the Eldar to their land freely, to dwell or to depart; and though they might judge departure to be folly, they might not restrain them from it.


----------



## Alcuin (Jul 6, 2006)

Gothmog said:


> The defences of Aman were aimed at preventing Melkor and his followers from bringing war to Aman.


Silmarillion, “Of the Beginning of Days”:


> …since Melkor was returned to Middle-earth and they could not yet overcome him, the Valar fortified their dwelling, and upon the shores of the sea they raised the Pelóri, the Mountains of Aman, highest upon Earth.


The Teleri of Eldamar were most capable of traveling back to Beleriand, but it does not seem that any of them ever attempted it except in two cases. (See below.) Círdan ruled over the _Eglain_ or _Falathrim_, who were different from the other Sindar in that they still called themselves _Telerrim_ rather than _Sindar_, and they spoke a more archaic language (_Peoples of Middle-earth_, “Last Writings,” “Círdan”) . When the Edain left for Elenna or Andor (the island that became known as Númenor), the Edain sailed with the assistance of Círdan’s sailors to the island from he wreck of Beleriand. The boats (note the use of the word “boats,” denoting small craft, rather than “ships”) “that were used were of Elvish model, fleet but small, steered by one of the Eldar…” The transportation took at least 50 years, involved 150-300 vessels, and moved 5,000 to 10,000 Edain. It “ended only when Círdan (no doubt instructed by the Valar) would provide no more ships or guides.” (Both citations are from _Peoples of Middle-earth_, “The History of the Akallabêth”.) So the implication is that transportation to Elenna was terminated before all the Edain who wanted to go were able to get there. 

Elenna, Númenor, was more than 60% of the distance to Tol Eressëa from the ruin of Beleriand, if the maps constructed by Karen Wynn Fonstad in her extraordinarily useful _Atlas of Middle-earth_ are nearly correct (pp 38-41). We know that at the same time, the Eldar and many of the Sindar continued on to Tol Eressëa and probably to Eldamar, so the vessels they had even at the beginning of the Second Age were capable of the journey. (Consider the voyage of _Vingilot_, Eärendil’s ship, which made the transit under adverse conditions, albeit with the Silmaril in his possession.) 

-|-

Now that I have that off my chest (and cleared from my concern – sorry, I know I run on…) think about this as well. Elves in Middle-earth were _fading_. The Rings of Power, especially the Three Rings, held back the ravages of time on the _hröar_ (bodies) of the Elves, but at a terrible cost: they were founded on the knowledge Sauron gave to the Mírdain of Ost-in-Edhil. But this _fading_ proceeded far more slowly in Valinor, and it may be that the Elves were reluctant to return to Middle-earth for fear of hastening the _fading_ of their _hröar_.

There were at least two occasions in which the Teleri of Eldamar returned by ship to Middle-earth. The first was to transport the Host of the Valar to the War of Wrath at the end of the First Age. Even then, then “they stayed aboard their vessels, and none of them set foot upon the Hither Lands” (Silmarillion, “Of the Voyage of Eärendil”). The second was to bring the Istari out of the West around the year III 1000: Círdan knew whence they came, and that they were emissaries out of the West, but there is no mention of any of the Teleri setting foot upon the shores of Lindon (_Unfinished Tales_, “The Istari”; the date can also be found in “Appendix B” of _Return of the King_).

There is one more passage in “Of the Voyage of Eärendil” that might shed some light upon this.


> In those days there was a great building of ships upon the shores of the Western Sea; and thence in many a fleet the Eldar set sail into the West, and came never back to the lands of weeping and of war.


 It sounds as if the memory of Beleriand and the wars they fought and the losses they incurred so troubled the Elves that they had no desire to return to Middle-earth. In that respect, Glorfindel might have been exceptional indeed for his courage and high heart.


----------



## baragund (Jul 13, 2006)

Picking up on Gothmog's remarks above, how can Melkor's suggestions that the Noldor were somehow either i) tricked into coming to Valinor or ii) held there against their will if they knew earlier that they could come and go as they wished?

In "Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor" Melkor conjures visions in the hearts of the Noldor of great kingdoms they could have in middle-Earth and that the Valar kept them in Valinor because they were jealous of them or that the Valar wanted Men to rule over middle-Earth. "Fiercest burned the new flame of desire for freedom and wider realms in the eager heart of Feanor...". If Feanor had said that he wanted to go back to m-E to build himself a kingdom, nobody would have stopped him (at least until things got out of hand when he was banished for turning on Fingolfin).


----------



## Neumy (Sep 13, 2006)

It is of my opinion that the Elves did have an amount of freedom in travelling to and fro between ME and Aman. 

Up until the end of the First Age, the elves who left were forbidden to return because on their kin slaying and other evils. Manwe finally opened the way up for those willing to make the journey. There were still a few elves, like Galadriel, who refused the journey until the ring was finally destroyed.

I do not believe Legolas (and his kin) had any such restrictions on himself and (in my opinion) could have made the journey at any time (even in the First Age).

In the HoME series, one of Tolkien's ideas concerning Galadriel was that she was planning to go back to ME on her own before Feanor began to chase Melkor. The Valar were fine with that were planning on helping her cross over.

Generally, I don't think too many elves had any desire to leave Aman once they were there. Anyways, just my thoughts.


----------



## Alcuin (Sep 13, 2006)

The idea that Galadriel was not part of the Rebellion of the Noldor arose very late in Tolkien’s life. As late as 25 January 1971, he wrote in Letter 320 that


> …Galadriel was … in her youth a leader in the rebellion against the Valar… At the end of the First Age she proudly refused forgiveness or permission to return. She was pardoned because of her resistance to the final and overwhelming temptation to take the Ring for herself.


Tolkien died 2 September 1973, so the notion that Galadriel was not one of the rebellious Noldor (and that Celeborn was from Valinor instead of Doriath) developed only in the last 2½ years of his life. For the thirty-odd years before that, beginning around August 1940, Galadriel was a leader in the Flight of the Noldor. (See the chapter “Lothlórien” in _The Treason of Isengard_ for the 1940 dating.)

There were two occasions when the Eldar did return to Middle-earth that we have not mentioned, other than the exceptional case of Glorfindel. The first was the Valarin armada sent for the War of Wrath. That included the Noldor led by Finarfin who had not left Valinor during Fëanor’s rebellion, the Vanyar, and the Teleri sailed the ships; but the Teleri never came ashore. 

The second was the transport of the Istari to Middle-earth in the Third Age, demonstrating that if they had desired (and had the permission of the Valar, if it were required), the Eldar could still return to Middle-earth. Again Teleri sailed the ships but never came ashore.


Neumy said:


> Generally, I don't think too many elves had any desire to leave Aman once they were there.


You do get that impression rather clearly, don’t you?


----------



## Barliman Butterbur (Sep 13, 2006)

baragund said:


> ...why couldn't (or didn't) the Elves travel back and forth between the two lands as the mood suited them?



No proper subway system.

Barley


----------



## Alcuin (Sep 13, 2006)

baragund said:


> ...why couldn't (or didn't) the Elves travel back and forth between the two lands as the mood suited them?
> 
> 
> Barliman Butterbur said:
> ...


Nobody wanted to go through the security inspections? (“I’m sorry, sir. You need to take off your _hröa_ and let us X-ray it before you can proceed to boarding. Sir, we don’t have to tolerate that kind of behavior. If you don’t cooperate, I’ll have to call the balrogs, and you could be arrested and sent to Mandos for 1 to 10 _yéni_.”)


----------



## Helcaraxë (Oct 3, 2006)

I think part of it is just logistics. Those who were in one place or another probably had a good reason for being there, because no one undertook an expedition of that magnitude without cause. They were not forbidden but they did not really have any motivation to travel. It would be a bit of a long commute.


----------



## Neumy (Oct 4, 2006)

I was thinking about this question recently and want to add one more. The Teleri in Aman had boats which the Noldor wanted to use to ship themselves to Middle-earth. This was the cause of the first (and only) kin-slaying of the Elves in Aman. *What did the Teleri do with the boats? Where did they sail?*

The initial question for this thread fits perfectly into the lies of Melkor. He wanted the elves to believe that they were trapped on Aman; that the Valar were holding them prisoner. That was never the case. I believe the elves had the rights and freedom to go where they wanted but with no easy access off Aman, Melkor's lies seemed to hold some element of truth.

So don't believe Melkor lies yourselves.


----------



## Arvegil (Oct 12, 2006)

To try to narrow the issue a little more: I think this question is most germaine to the Second Age, before Valinor was removed from the Circles of the World. We know the Eressa Elves went to Numenor...

Funny, I asked this very question a few years ago in a different forum. The three leading answers were: "because the Aman Elves care not about outside things," "that's the way the Valar want it," and "it's in the script."


----------

