# The Shire's Distance problems



## Neumy (Jul 15, 2006)

I've been looking at the maps and think I see a small inconsitancy between the drawings and the text. Perhaps someone out there can help shed some light on this and make sure I'm not crazy.

One the hobbit's way back home, they left Bree and travelled to Brandywine Bridge; it took them 1 day (arrived just after nightfall).
From the Brandywine Bridge to Frogmorton it also took 1 day; approximately 22 miles. It probably was not as long as from Bree to the bridge, but they were in a hurry to get home.
From Frogmorton to Bywater took 1 day; approximately 18 miles. They did get to town before it was dark, but the miles make sense. (Frogmorton to the Three Farthing Stone is approximately 14 miles.)
Pippin said that it was approximately 14 miles over the fields to Tuckborough. And they said that the ruffians would have to travel the approximate 15 miles twice to get to Waymeet and back.

The detailed Shire map looks nice and fits the approximate miles to locations, but my problem is with the larger maps. From Brandywine Bridge to Bree, it looks like it would take 3 to four days travel. Looks like the same distance as from Brandywine Bridge to Michel Delving. What's up here?

If the distance is really 1 day, then the Old Forest would be a lot smaller than shown on the large map. Also, Chetwood would be a lot bigger since it took Strider and company 3 days to travel through it. I understand that they could have been slowed down due to the underbrush, but they said that it was a better forest than the Old Forest and their travel wasn't that bad.
I looked at Karen Wynn Fonstad's maps as well as Barbara Strachey's, both do not satisfy me with this inconsitancy.

So ... what do you guys think?


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## Shireman D (Jul 15, 2006)

How fast does a hobbit walk?

Depends on how many mushrooms he finds along the way - or inns!

I walk faster on cool days that might be true for others: much slower in the rain, to leave time for sulking about the nasty weather.


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## Maeglin (Jul 15, 2006)

I would imagine Hobbits can't walk all that fast. As they are about half the size (or less) than an average human, I feel like walking even 15 miles in one day would be a stretch for them. But then again, did they have ponies on the way home? I can't remember, but if so, that would hasten the trip.


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## Thorondor_ (Jul 15, 2006)

> As they are about half the size (or less) than an average human


Well, they are half of the height of the numenoreans


Numenorean linear measures said:


> ...the Hobbits of the Shire were in height between three and four feet, never less and seldom more. They did not of course call themselves Halflings; this was the Numenorean name for them. It evidently referred to their height in comparison with Numenorean men, and was approximately accurate when given.


the text being rather similar to Late writings, HoME XII:


The Atani and their languages said:


> Hobbits on the other hand were in nearly all respects normal Men, but of very short stature. They were called 'halflings'; but this refers to the normal height of men of Numenorean descent and of the Eldar (especially those of Noldorin descent), which appears to have been about seven of our feet. Their height at the periods concerned was usually more than three feet for men, though very few ever exceeded three foot six; women seldom exceeded three feet.


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## Alcuin (Jul 25, 2006)

Neumy said:


> I've been looking at the maps and think I see a small inconsitancy between the drawings and the text. Perhaps someone out there can help shed some light on this and make sure I'm not crazy.


It does indeed look as if it’s 75-80 miles from the Brandywine Bridge to Bree. 



Neumy said:


> One the hobbit's way back home, they left Bree and travelled to Brandywine Bridge; it took them 1 day (arrived just after nightfall).
> From the Brandywine Bridge to Frogmorton it also took 1 day; approximately 22 miles. It probably was not as long as from Bree to the bridge, but they were in a hurry to get home.
> From Frogmorton to Bywater took 1 day; approximately 18 miles. They did get to town before it was dark, but the miles make sense. (Frogmorton to the Three Farthing Stone is approximately 14 miles.)
> Pippin said that it was approximately 14 miles over the fields to Tuckborough. And they said that the ruffians would have to travel the approximate 15 miles twice to get to Waymeet and back.


Only the Shirriffs were walking. Frodo and his companions were riding ponies, as *Maeglin* recalls. 

Real people can move 20 miles in a day. (This was expected of a Roman legion, for instance.) Tolkien wrote that the Númenóreans marched 8-12 leagues per day, and although the league is a nonstandard measure in the real world (2½ – 3 miles), Tolkien seems to have been using a nearly 3-mile league, the Númenórean _lár _(_Unfinished Tales_, the appendix “Númenórean Linear Measures”). Let’s assume halflings would move half as far as a Númenórean (not necessarily a good assumption), so may we say 12-18 miles a day for hobbits on foot?

The four companions rode unaccompanied from the bridge to Frogmorton, which you make to be about 22 miles. The next day, Sam, Merry and Pippin pushed the Shirriffs to move at an uncomfortable pace leaving Frogmorton: they were still mounted, but the Shirriffs gave up along the way. You make Frogmorton to Bywater to be 18 miles, and that makes sense: on foot, the Shirriffs gave up a little over two-thirds of the way along the route. Pippin rode from Bywater to Tuckborough, so that would explain how he could return with the Took militia before the ruffians could return with their reinforcements. 



Neumy said:


> The detailed Shire map looks nice and fits the approximate miles to locations, but my problem is with the larger maps. From Brandywine Bridge to Bree, it looks like it would take 3 to four days travel. Looks like the same distance as from Brandywine Bridge to Michel Delving. What's up here?


Distance riders on Arabians report that they can move 45-50 miles a day. For easier calculation, let’s assume that a man moves 24 miles a day, a hobbit 12, a horse 48, and split the difference between the man and horse to get a figure for the pony at 36 miles per day. Frankly, I don’t know if those are reasonable distances or not for the animals. (Most of the advertised horseback daytrips on the ’net are 16-20 miles a day or less, and the longest I saw in a quick glance was about 7 hours; most were 4.) 

If you push a horse, you might cover 100 miles in a day, although that wouldn’t seem to be a problem for Shadowfax, Gandalf’s mount, making the 75-80 mile journey from Bree to the Brandywine no problem for him. (J.E.B. Stuart rode completely around Gen. McClellan’s army during the 1862 Peninsula Campaign in Virginia, about 100 miles in 72 hours, as part of a reconnaissance. The Pony Express covered 1966 miles in an average of 10 days, averaging about 10 miles an hour; but they changed horses every 10-15 miles, and riders every 100 miles.) That still leaves the hobbits and their four ponies: I don’t know, do we assume the animals were exhausted by the time they met Bill Ferny at the bridge? Or that they were some special breed from Rivendell or Rohan, hardier and better able to handle a long ride?

A last note: Bombadil apparently parted with the hobbits not too far from Bree, where the text says the East Road bends “South-west to North-east.” That is very near Bree, if not almost in sight of it. (I need a magnifying glass to see it; there is an easier, larger bend just west of that one that runs mostly South-east to North-west: maybe there is an error in the text, and this larger bend was intended?) Gandalf also parted from them not far from this spot to visit Bombadil. Perhaps the hobbits were concerned by Gandalf’s warnings about what they would find and hastened back to the Shire with all the speed they could muster. There is no description of their journey from their parting with Gandalf to the point at which they reach the bridge, which they reached “after nightfall”, where they are described as “wet and tired”. There is no mention of rain: perhaps “wet and tired” is a description of them after their exertions?



Neumy said:


> If the distance is really 1 day, then the Old Forest would be a lot smaller than shown on the large map. Also, Chetwood would be a lot bigger since it took Strider and company 3 days to travel through it. I understand that they could have been slowed down due to the underbrush, but they said that it was a better forest than the Old Forest and their travel wasn't that bad.
> 
> I looked at Karen Wynn Fonstad's maps as well as Barbara Strachey's, both do not satisfy me with this inconsitancy.


I also checked Fonstad’s maps: she covers the entire quest to the destruction of the Ring in miles per day for each character up to the destruction of the Ring, but not for the journey home.

I had never noticed this before, *Neumy.*


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## Barliman Butterbur (Jul 25, 2006)

You seem to assume that the hobbits walked at the same speed every day. That's probably an erroneous assumption. And we also have to take into consideration that perhaps JRR wasn't giving this detail that much thought.

Barley


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## Alcuin (Jul 26, 2006)

Barliman Butterbur said:


> You seem to assume that the hobbits walked at the same speed every day. That's probably an erroneous assumption. And we also have to take into consideration that perhaps JRR wasn't giving this detail that much thought.
> 
> Barley


That would be uncharacteristic of him. He worked very hard to maintain consistency and reasonable movement. There is no indication that he assumed there they were moving at the same speed, or the same distance, every day, but quite the opposite.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Jul 26, 2006)

Alcuin said:


> That would be uncharacteristic of him. He worked very hard to maintain consistency and reasonable movement. There is no indication that he assumed there they were moving at the same speed, or the same distance, every day, but quite the opposite.



OK, _you_explain it — and no bogus stuff, I want the computer codes!  

Barley


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## Alcuin (Jul 26, 2006)

Barliman Butterbur said:


> OK, _you_explain it — and no bogus stuff, I want the computer codes!
> 
> Barley


Ok. Take a look at the section called “Pathways” toward the end of Karen Wynn Fonstad’s _Atlas of Middle-earth_. It is thoroughly documented, with references to the books and page numbers. There is a summary Pathway Table that in my edition occupies pp 157-161. She has broken out the date, the hours traveled, mileage, miles per hour, who moved and by what means (pony, foot, boat), and where they were at the end of the day (“Campsite”). I think you will find that this was carefully reconstructed from _The Lord of the Rings_. Characters move at different rates and distances based upon their means of movement and the places and conditions through which they traveled.

In _The Treason of Isengard_, Christopher Tolkien goes over the maps of _The Lord of the Rings_. And in the same text, in the chapter “Of Hamilcar, Gandalf, and Saruman,” he reviews his father’s meticulous notes on the movements of the Nazgûl until their arrival at Weathertop. 

Those are but a few examples. Howver, you may have it straight from the author himself. In Letter 144, he writes,


> I wisely started with a map, and made the story fit (generally with meticulous care for distances).


As for the problem of the travel from Bree to the Brandywine Bridge – that is not resolved, I think, unless Frodo and his party caused their ponies to gallop or run the distance. Otherwise, I believe *Neumy* is quite correct: there is no other way for them to cover the distance in one day. But there is nothing in the text that describes it, except that they arrived “after nightfall” and were “wet and tired”.

That issue is the subject of this thread.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Jul 26, 2006)

Alcuin said:


> Ok. Take a look at the section called “Pathways” toward the end of Karen Wynn Fonstad’s _Atlas of Middle-earth_. It is thoroughly documented, with references to the books and page numbers. There is a summary Pathway Table that in my edition occupies pp 157-161. She has broken out the date, the hours traveled, mileage, miles per hour, who moved and by what means (pony, foot, boat), and where they were at the end of the day (“Campsite”). I think you will find that this was carefully reconstructed from _The Lord of the Rings_. Characters move at different rates and distances based upon their means of movement and the places and conditions through which they traveled.
> 
> In _The Treason of Isengard_, Christopher Tolkien goes over the maps of _The Lord of the Rings_. And in the same text, in the chapter “Of Hamilcar, Gandalf, and Saruman,” he reviews his father’s meticulous notes on the movements of the Nazgûl until their arrival at Weathertop.
> 
> ...



Sorry — it's all bogus — no computer codes! I want to see the databases and the computer codes!  

This is the kind of thing I gratefully leave to others, while I simply read and enjoy the story — I'm a very simple man. 

Barley


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## Alcuin (Jul 27, 2006)

Barliman Butterbur said:


> I'm a very simple man.


True. But a happy one, I trust.


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## Valandil (Sep 14, 2006)

Hmmm... ponies carrying Hobbits might travel further than when they're carrying a full grown Human. So... if Hobbits have a travel disadvantage while walking, it might actually work to their advantage while riding.

As for when they cut through the Old Forest, stayed at Bombadil's, and then went on to Bree, the oddest thought just struck me...

How certain can we be that Bombadil's House stayed in the same place? Even while the four Hobbits were in it?


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## Aglarband (Jan 7, 2007)

I would venture to say that Bombadil's house did not move, yet maybe the trees around it. From what I can remember from fellowship, the trees did not move more than a few feet, and only so as to make a path for the hobbit to oldman willow.


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## Shireman D (Jan 13, 2007)

Alcuin said:


> It does indeed look as if it’s 75-80 miles from the Brandywine Bridge to Bree.... There is no description of their journey from their parting with Gandalf to the point at which they reach the bridge, which they reached “after nightfall”, where they are described as “wet and tired”.


 
I did wonder if the text might allow for more than one day, the parting is in Bk. 6 Ch. 7 and the arrival at the bridge in the next so it could be read as not having to be only one day (although that is a tortuous reading) but App. B is quite clear that they covered the whole distance in one day, October 30th, SR 1419. Other sources, i.e. in HOME, make clear that the writing of the final pages and the appendices was completed under pressure and in some haste and it may be that this problem was simply overlooked. It is not discussed in HOME as far as I remember.


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