# Rangers of the North - The Remnants of Arnor



## Mrs. Maggott (Oct 30, 2002)

Very little is mentioned by Tolkien of Aragorn's fellow "Rangers of the North" except that they help him in keeping at bay the forces of the Enemy from Bree and the other towns as well as the Shire. A number of them join him as he rides back to Helm's Deep with Theoden after the confrontation with Saruman (including Halbarad, the one who is named - I don't know if others are also named) and take The Paths of the Dead with him when no other man would follow. 

There has to be a "people" in the North, remnants of Arnor, and that means there have to be women and children as well as men, places where they live, means of sustenance (unless they sell their services as guides for income). Aragorn's father Arathorn found a woman (Gilraen) of suitable bloodline to marry and produce an heir and Aragorn (had he not fallen in love with Arwen) must have had suitable maidens from which to choose to continue the line of Elendil. That means that there have to have been a group remaining of the Northern Kingdom at least large enough to assure its continuation. 

Since Tolkien does elucidate the matter in LOTR (although he may do so somewhere else), can anyone comment upon this lamentably little known group from which one of the central figures of the story springs?


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## Turgon (Oct 30, 2002)

Interesting question - I've often wondered about this myself. The northlands do seem to be deserted, save for one or two isolated communities. Tolkien describes Bree-land as being _'...a small inhabited region, like an island in the empty lands round about...'_ He also says that _'In those days no other Men had settled dwellings so far west, or within a hundred leagues of the Shire.'_ Taking a Middle-earth league to be nigh on three miles, that would rule out most of olde Arnor. 

I guess the only clue to the number of Dúnedain still dwelling in the North is the size of the Grey Company. They could only muster thirty men to ride to the aid of their Chief in his time of need - though it is said that those thirty were only those that could be gathered in haste. Yet considering that Dúnedain were a long lived folk, it's a very telling number. Thirty men of fighting age? Doesn't bode well for the rest of the population.


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## aragil (Oct 31, 2002)

There's some bits on that subject on the second page of this thread here:
http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5291&perpage=15

I think I agree with both Turgon and Smeagol. I don't think that the Dunedain made up much of a clientele for M. Butterbur, but I do think they retained some settlements near Fornost, Elrond and Barliman both refer to it as Deadman's Dike. Also, Cian and T-E refer to some settlement in the Angle in that link I've posted. Aside from that the appendices mention that the heirs of Isildur are all fostered at Rivendell- I imagine they stay there with some sort of retinue. My recommendation for a really good source on this would be Jeff F if he still visits these boards- he has an uncanny knack for figuring out numbers based on Tolkien's descriptions.

One final thought- the relief force sent by Gondor to rescue Arvedui (too late) was considered gargantuan in the North, but was not necessarily that large for a southern army. So I'd say that even before Angmar put an end to the last of the Northern Kingdoms, there were already far fewer Dunedain than resided in the South.


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## Proudfoots (Nov 13, 2002)

I hope that there were more than thirty men of fighting (and breeding) age, otherwise we are looking at a tiny breeding population that would not be of sufficient size to produce a successful community...

What I am saying is that if there were only thirty guys making little rangers, there would be considerable in breeding, especially when we look a the lengths of time that they have been in hiding...

Aragorn might have had some serious birth defects, besides being a little seedy... So, from the Anthropological perspective, there were probably a few hundred scattered around the North country


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## Mrs. Maggott (Nov 13, 2002)

Most probably they did not send ALL their men into the field. There would be some who would be too old or crippled from wounds or other infirmities. But surely, there must have been some sort of "Ruling Council" as well as Aragorn since his father died when he was only two years old and when he learned of his heritage at age 20, however excellent he might have been, he would not have been anywhere NEAR mature enough to take over the leadership of the community. 

It is most probable that the ones that were sent to the South in the War of the Ring were the Rangers who were "in the field" at the time the call came. I sincerely doubt - given the extremely "iffy" circumstances at the time - that they would have stripped the community of ALL defense. However, certainly the ones who defended Bree and the other two towns went south because Butterbur acknowledges their disappearance when the hobbits return to Bree.


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## Arvedui (Dec 18, 2002)

From Appendix A:


> In 1974 the power of Angmar arose again, and the Witch-king came down upon Arthedain before winter was ended. He captured Fornost, *and drove most of the remaining Dúnedain over the Lune; * among them were the sons of the king. But King Arvedui held out upon the North Downs until the last, and then fled north with some of his guard; and they escaped by the swiftness of their horses.



Now this may at least hint that the remaining Dúnedain settled somewhere in Ered Luin. That would be wise, IMO, since it would be close to Cirdan and the Grey Havens.
Also, after Arvedui there was 16 Chieftains, including Aragorn II. Therefore, those remainders must have been of some number, beeing able to maintain a straight bloodline from Isildur.


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## Halasían (Dec 20, 2002)

The Dúnedain Rangers had to have some sort of lives throughout the days of the Chieftans, and so they met ladies, fell in love, married, had children in the way Arathorn and Gilraen did. I think they maybe had places they called home, though they were there little. Maybe some among the elves not only in Rivendell but in Harlond, Forlond, & Mithlond, some in Bree and the settlements nearby... Archet, Staddle, Combe... and maybe some still dwelt in encampments in the Emyn Uial. Just speculation on my part.


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## Arthur_Vandelay (Mar 5, 2004)

Read Michael Martinez's essays: Ranger For Hire: Have Horse, Will Travel, and Of Thegns and Kings and Rangers and Things.

In the second of these articles, Martinez has this to say:


> Tolkien actually made a note, now filed among his papers at Marquette University, which stated that Aragorn's people lived in the Angle, between the Bruinen and Mitheithel rivers.


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## Valandil (Oct 30, 2004)

Most of Eriador seems pretty desolate late in the Third Age. I suspect though, that the Dunedain there were somewhat scattered. I think they would have lived in rather small groups, so that they would not be noticed... sort of staying 'below the radar'. If they could all be gathered together, it might well be a few thousand people - my 'shot in the dark' says maybe as many as 10,000 to 20,000.

I even wonder if the majority possibly had small homesteads and tiny, hidden villages - except perhaps the royal family. These may have traveled about in a circuit, accompanied by a small band - visiting, and being provisioned by, their people on a rotating basis. The 30 who came to Aragorn in Rohan may have mostly been made up of such a retinue. Otherwise... the very way they were scattered - a man here and a man there - could well have limited the number they could bring.

IIRC, some of the Anglo-Saxon kings lived a 'semi-nomadic' lifestyle... going about from place to place. Seems like I got that impression of Alfred the Great - King of Wessex in the late 9th century. Doing this allows the king (or in our case, Chieftain) to stay in touch with all of his people - and allows them to share somewhat equally in providing material support for him - mostly food and a place to sleep for him and his men, and hay for their horses.

I have very little to go on - so this is mostly speculative. And yes, I have seen mention of the Angle... but I wonder if that could simply be considered the place of highest concentration. If you had 5,000 Dunedain scattered about the Angle, trying to live inconspicuously - and another 5, 10 or 15,000 scattered about the rest of Eriador (with some still maybe in Lindon)... their density would indeed be quite low. What would be the area of the Angle... perhaps 8,000 square miles? All the former lands of Arnor... 125,000 square miles?? Maybe more?


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## Gildor (Oct 30, 2004)

Valandil said:


> IIRC, some of the Anglo-Saxon kings lived a 'semi-nomadic' lifestyle... going about from place to place. Seems like I got that impression of Alfred the Great - King of Wessex in the late 9th century. Doing this allows the king (or in our case, Chieftain) to stay in touch with all of his people - and allows them to share somewhat equally in providing material support for him - mostly food and a place to sleep for him and his men, and hay for their horses.



Sounds very plausible, and that nomadic lifestyle would also make it difficult for an enemy to find them since the chieftan(s) would have no permanent stronghold which could be assaulted.


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## Halasían (Nov 19, 2004)

Valandil said:


> Most of Eriador seems pretty desolate late in the Third Age. I suspect though, that the Dunedain there were somewhat scattered. I think they would have lived in rather small groups, so that they would not be noticed... sort of staying 'below the radar'. If they could all be gathered together, it might well be a few thousand people - my 'shot in the dark' says maybe as many as 10,000 to 20,000.
> 
> I even wonder if the majority possibly had small homesteads and tiny, hidden villages - except perhaps the royal family. These may have traveled about in a circuit, accompanied by a small band - visiting, and being provisioned by, their people on a rotating basis. The 30 who came to Aragorn in Rohan may have mostly been made up of such a retinue. Otherwise... the very way they were scattered - a man here and a man there - could well have limited the number they could bring.
> 
> ...


I believe they would be scattered about the whole realm excluding of course the Shire. Otherwise your speculation is pretty good.


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## Valandil (Nov 21, 2004)

Another thought I've had recently about why only 30 Rangers came to meet Aragorn in Rohan... while defending the notion that there may well have been several hundred, or even a few thousand men of fighting age: not only were these the ones who could be gathered on short notice... they were also mounted. I have the impression that Rangers did lots of walking - and that perhaps not many of them had horses...


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## MichaelMartinez (Nov 22, 2004)

Mrs. Maggott said:


> There has to be a "people" in the North, remnants of Arnor, and that means there have to be women and children as well as men, places where they live, means of sustenance (unless they sell their services as guides for income). Aragorn's father Arathorn found a woman (Gilraen) of suitable bloodline to marry and produce an heir and Aragorn (had he not fallen in love with Arwen) must have had suitable maidens from which to choose to continue the line of Elendil. That means that there have to have been a group remaining of the Northern Kingdom at least large enough to assure its continuation.
> 
> Since Tolkien does elucidate the matter in LOTR (although he may do so somewhere else), can anyone comment upon this lamentably little known group from which one of the central figures of the story springs?


Tolkien provided some clues in _The Lord of the Rings_ for where Aragorn's people lived. A few years ago, David Salo published on the Internet the contents of a note he had found in Marquette University's Tolkien archive which stated that Aragorn's people lived in the Angle between the Bruinen and Mitheithel rivers (read the opening section of "At the sign of the Prancing Pony" to see the clues he embedded in the main narrative).

In _The Peoples of Middle-earth_, Christopher Tolkien published some early material his father had written for the appendices, and in one passage (I believe for "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen", although I don't have time to look it up -- but I now see that Arthur Vandelay quoted me on this already) JRRT wrote that Gilraen returned to her people who lived in a "fastness in the wilderness". That fastness would have been a fortified town or village, far from other communities such as Bree and the Shire.

We don't have enough information to know whether the Dunedain had more than one such location in the Angle (which was technically part of Eriador).


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## Halasían (Dec 10, 2004)

> We don't have enough information to know whether the Dunedain had more than one such location in the Angle (which was technically part of Eriador).


 It would be a good assumption. Also an area of thought are the Twilight Hills and vicinity.


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## MichaelMartinez (Dec 12, 2004)

Silvanis said:


> It would be a good assumption. Also an area of thought are the Twilight Hills and vicinity.


I used to think the Hills of Evendim would be a good location for them, but when you put all the clues together, you have to rule out any location in Eriador west of the Mitheithel river. In "At the sign of the Prancing Pony", Tolkien states that there are no other settled communities of men within 100 leagues of the Shire (a league being about 3 miles in length in Tolkien's usage). The only possible location thus becomes the Angle, a conclusion supported by David Salo's note from Marquette University.


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## aragil (Dec 13, 2004)

But the Rangers still visited Fornost. I must imagine that had some sort of camp there:


> ‘You will be let alone, Barliman,’ said Gandalf. ‘There is room enough for realms between Isen and Greyflood, or along the shore lands south of the Brandywine, without any one living within many days’ ride of Bree. And many folk used to dwell away north, a hundred miles or more from here, at the far end of the Greenway: on the North Downs or by Lake Evendim.’
> ‘Up away by Deadmen’s Dike?’ said Butterbur, looking even more dubious. ‘That’s haunted land, they say. None but a robber would go there.’
> ‘The Rangers go there,’ said Gandalf. ‘Deadmen’s Dike, you say. So it has been called for long years; but its right name, Barliman, is Fornost Erain, Norbury of the Kings. And the King will come there again one day; and then you’ll have some fair folk riding through.’


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## Halasían (Jul 5, 2011)

Plausible aragil... its just hard to wrap my head around having women and children around Fornost. Its hard to fathom exactly where the Dunedain would go through the courting and marriage and raising children anywhere in the area at the time. Not sure I can subscribe to Mike Martinez's theory of the "fastness of the wilderness" ... could be anywhere in the reaches of old Arnor as long as it was well away from the Shire.


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## DM613 (Aug 4, 2011)

It is likely that those who were sent to the south of the War of the Ring was Rangers who were "the ground" when the call came. I sincerely doubt - given the very "dangerous" conditions at the time - they would be deprived of the Community of all defenses. But at least those who defended Bree and the two other southern towns went because butterbur recognize their disappearance when the hobbits return to Bree.http://www.tera2u.com/


Commercial links in posts are against forum rules. Please not that any further linking to off topic commercial sites will result in a permanent ban from forum use.


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## Bard the Bowman (Aug 13, 2011)

DM613, you raise an interesting question in my mind. Butterbur said they didn't rightly know what the Rangers did for them, because when they left, evil things came. Only 30 Rangers went south, but from numerous forums discussing the population of the Rangers, most people seem to think the fighting population of the Rangers was around 1000. So how could 30 Rangers going south be loss enough to allow evil things to come forth? Did the rest of the Rangers follow suit? Or did they travel to Rivendell? Or to Mirkwood? I just don't know.


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## Starbrow (Sep 3, 2011)

We know that there was fighting in Rivendell, so some of the Rangers may have helped there. And I suppose they were defending their own settlements. Maybe the 30 that went south were the ones patroling the outlying areas.


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## Halasían (Oct 20, 2013)

I had a bit of a think about this and looked over the Fonstadt maps, and if you get technical, 100 leagues (roughly 300 miles) from the Shire at the Brandywine Bridge as the crow flies would put even the Angle within this range. The Weather Hills are roughly 150 miles from the Brandywine Bridge. So assuming the bends in the road make uo the distance, The Last Bridge would be roughly where this line is. So it leaves The Angle, Eregion, and Rhuadur for their living area.


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## crabby (Nov 12, 2013)

i think i'm begining to have a bit of a problem with the concept of 'hidden' societies/communities living unobtrusively in remote/un-travelled areas of NW middle earth...

this applies to the Rangers, to outlying populations of Hobbits, and the other 'flotsam and jetsam' of the Third Age - and its simply that the Area west of the Misty Mountains isn't big enough for a population, even a small population, to both survive for several hundred years and to not be noticed. we know that there are a number of settlements (the Shire, Bree, Blue Mountains and Grey Havens), as well as roads that cross this area, and that while they aren't busy, they are travelled - the east/west road, and the north/south road that splits north of Tharbad with one spur going slightly east to Bree and Fornost, and the other going westwards to the Shire and the Grey Havens. this effectively splits the region into four parts.

the catalyst for this revalation came to me while sat on Brown Clee Hill, a 540m hill in Shropshire, not a million miles from Tolkiens childhood home, and an area that looks a _lot_ like Tolkiens descriptions of Eregion - rolling, low-ish hills, moorland, forests and the occasional high, rocky summit - it was that on a day with decent visibility i could see a _looong_ way, and more specifically, i could see smoke a long way away. a small bonfire or even just the smoke from a chimney was visible from 30 miles away, i could determine which fields were farmed for crops and which were just rough pasture from 45 miles, and i could see clusters of buildings at 20+ miles.

to survive, a community needs to farm, it needs a mill, it needs a blacksmith, it needs to cook - and it needs to be big enough to avoid inbreeding over the long term. all of these things not only stick out like the moon in a 'wild' landscape, but they are absolute indicators of the existance of a community.

i just don't see, given how Tolkien explains the geography/topography of Eregion, how any settlement larger than a single family could remain hidden for any great period of time - you just can't be far enough from a road for the 'footprint' of a viable agrarian community to avoid detection.

views?


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## Halasían (Nov 16, 2013)

I agree with you crabby. Having the infrastructure and support to be able to meet, marry, have children, and in numbers that would allow for 30 men of fighting age to ride away to war in TA 3019, this could not be "hidden". It has led to a logical theory on their integration into the society around Bree as it was the only area that supported a reasonable population. They were not known to the people around them as 'Dunedain' but they kept mostly to themselves, and the Rangers worked in stealth and secrecy. Opposed to this though is the technical aspects of what has been written, which puts the area well out of range of Bree. So that leaves Rivendell really, or Rhuadur, which was a harsh place even in the days of the Kingdom.


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## Mouth_Of_Sauron (Dec 14, 2013)

aragil said:


> I think I agree with both Turgon and Smeagol


taken out of context, this made me laugh.

sry, off topic


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