# Why did Frodo fail?



## Celebthôl (Aug 7, 2003)

Simple question, but looked at another way, difficult (I think anyway) to answer.

We know that the ring finally got to Frodo, but why did Mr Tolkien make it so? Why did he after all the fuss made about how Hobbits are resistant to the call of the ring better than most and have strong wills,did he belittle them and make them fail?
What purpose could this serve?
Was he annoyed at his own creation and jealous as they were better than Men and he decided to show them up? 
I can't see why...


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## Feanorian (Aug 7, 2003)

What is this craziness?! How did they fail? Just because Frodo needed a little push over the finish line (kudos to Gollum) doesnt mean that he failed....who else could have come nearly that close? The wise especially Gandalf knew it would be a challenge thats why Samwise was there. 

and second off, they werent better then men. They were carnies....circus folk....just kidding  .


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## Maeglin (Aug 7, 2003)

I'm sure that all of Frodo's injuries didn't help him resist in the end either. The Morgul wound probably had some effect still (especially in Mordor), and Shelob's poison probably wasn't completely worn off. Mix that with the treachery of Gollum and just the weight of the ring on him body and mind, it's no wonder he couldn't resist in the end.


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## ely (Aug 7, 2003)

Maybe he wanted to have an unexpected ending. Or maybe he wanted Gollum to do something at the end, play an important role. Or maybe just to show us that even Frodo, an strong-willed hobbit fell under the power of the ring - some things are just more powerful than us, we can't do everything however strong we think we are. Or when all hope seems to be lost, something will still save the world... 

Another thing we will never know (unless Mr Tolkien has mentioned it somewhere)

Feanorian posted while I was still writing this, he has a point too. Maybe Frodo didn't failed - he did take the Ring to Mordor and there it was destroyed. If he hadn't done it, if he hadn't succeeded doing that, then the Ring would have not destroyed. So in a way Frodo didn't fail...


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## Celebthôl (Aug 7, 2003)

But he knew what he had to do, he went all that way, knowing what he had to do, how can he not do it?


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## Eriol (Aug 7, 2003)

No one can resist Evil at its strongest; that's the point. A healthy Frodo could not; I think a healthy Gandalf could not. That's why Sauron never worried about it.

Tolkien talks a lot about it in the Letters (182, 192, 246 -- hehe, I just used them in the last debate). It is one of the most important messages of the tale. God is needed to prevail over evil, virtue can't do it alone. A common theme in Christian tales.

Frodo did his best, but no one could resist the Ring's temptation in the Sammath Naur. (And this explains Isildur's actions a bit, by the way).


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## Celebthôl (Aug 7, 2003)

Makes sense, but Sam could surely, if he had the ring he would have disposed of it


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## Eriol (Aug 7, 2003)

Not according to Tolkien. He said that _no one_ could resist the Ring in the Sammath Naur.


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## BlackCaptain (Aug 7, 2003)

> _From the Letters of JRR Tolkien; Letter 246_:
> From the point of view of the storyteller the events on Mt Doom proceed simply from the logic of the tale up to that time. They were not deliberately worked up to nor forseen until they occurred. But, for one thing, it became at last quite clear that Frodo after all that had happened would be incapable of voluntarily destroying the Ring. Reflecting on the solution after it was arrived at (as a mere event) I feel that it is central to the whole 'theory' of true nobility and heroism that is presented.
> 
> Frodo indeed 'failed' as a hero, as conceived by simle minds[Haha! You're a simple mind Thol! *laughs evily*]: he did not endure to the end, he gave in, ratted. I do not say 'simple minds' with contempt: they often see with clarity the simple truth and the absollute ideal to which effort must be directed, even if it is unattainable. Their weakness, however, is twofold. They do not perceive the complexity of any given situation in Time, in which an absolute ideal is enmeshed. They tend to forget that strange element in the World that we call Pity or Mercy, which is also an absolute requirement in moral judgement. ... [goes on about God and divinity]
> ...



The question that Mrs Eileen Elgar wrote to Tolkien was basicaly asking (according to the summary made by the Letters of JRR Tolkien) "Why did Frodo fail to surender the Ring at the cracks of doom."
I think what he's saying as that it would be phisicaly and mentaly impossible for anyone to not fail.


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## Celebthôl (Aug 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Eriol _
> *Not according to Tolkien. He said that no one could resist the Ring in the Sammath Naur. *



Did Gandalf know that? Would Elrond or Círdan have kept it? I mean the questions are endless...


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## BlackCaptain (Aug 7, 2003)

I dont think that if Gandalf knew that he would have sent Frodo. But this really questions my judgement of Gandalf's wisdom... Surely he should have known no-one could destroy the Ring? Elrond and Cirdan I assume wouldn't have known because they aren't Maia, and perhaps couldn't comprehend the power they would have. But why would Gandalf have sent Frodo to destroy the Ring...

Blind hope is all I could think of...


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## Eriol (Aug 7, 2003)

I remind the words of Elrond, that were put in Galadriel's mouth in the movie "This task is appointed to you Frodo, and if you can't find a way, no one will" (or something like that). Frodo was their "best shot"; I don't think they were absolutely sure that the Ring's power was irresistible in the Cracks of Doom. They had no first-hand knowledge of the Ring. Sauron probably knew that, and that's why he never worried about that, but Gandalf and Elrond didn't, in my opinion.

They would not have sent Frodo to certain death if there was no chance of success, in their minds. They thought that the rask was incredibly difficult, but not impossible. They were mistaken; but luckily Providence lent a hand.


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## YayGollum (Aug 7, 2003)

Why did the superly boring Frodo fail? Well, it looks like people already answered that. Because he was just a nasssty hobbit up against a really big and scary evil dude who was a lot stronger. There's nothing he could have done about it. Too bad. Yay for Gollum getting to be the hero since the superly boring Frodo failed!


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## Eledhwen (Aug 7, 2003)

Frodo was unable to cast the Ring into the fire for one simple reason - rising action. Tolkien was a master storyteller, and to have Frodo chuck the ring into the fire and Barad-Dur fall about Sauron's ears as he disappeared into a puff of smoke, *totally unaware* of what had happened to him, would have been a weaker ending than his becoming aware of Frodo as he put the Ring on, and the battle suddenly going into freeze-frame because Sauron isn't directing it. Don't you just love those lines:


> ...The Dark Lord was suddenly aware of him, and his Eye piercing all shadows looked across the plain to the door that he had made; and the magnitude of his own folly was revealed to him in a blinding flash, and all the devices of his enemies were at last laid bare..."


Magnificent!

Also, mythologically speaking, Gandalf had some foreknowledge that Gollum would have a part to play before the end, and in taking the Ring, Gollum activated the curses spoken over him by Faramir and Frodo etc. and fell into the fire. So though Frodo's will was utterly spent, providence was at hand.


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## Celebthôl (Aug 7, 2003)

And there it is  thank you very much Eledhwen


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## Dwarf Lord (Aug 7, 2003)

Damnit I know this is going to be an ignorant question, but where would one find these letters that you speak of? 
If you dable in the arts of evil you soon become consumed by the devilry, and trickery that insues.


DWARF LORD


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## BlackCaptain (Aug 7, 2003)

Any descent sized book store should have them... I got mine at a Thakaray's... if you have those wherever you live i'd go there


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## Dwarf Lord (Aug 7, 2003)

But what is the name? Is it simply letters of J.R.R. Tolkien?



DWARF LORD


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## Eledhwen (Aug 8, 2003)

Did I miss something? What are you all on about? Have the last three posts been accidentally added to "Why did Frodo fail?"  or what?

Ah, that's better. The strange posts have been replaced by sensible ones that fit the thread!


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## Celebthôl (Aug 8, 2003)

Thats a good question  

Why are those posts here guys?


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## BlackCaptain (Aug 8, 2003)

He asked where he could find the Letters of JRR Tolkien... Yes, Dwarf Lord, the book is simply called:

The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien


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## Dwarf Lord (Aug 9, 2003)

Sorry too go and completely screw up a thread, But I would like to say thanks to black captain. Thanks Dude!...crap yoir pants why don't ya, I was merely asking about something refered to in previous post as evidence to many points. So it wasn't exxxactly off the subject.


DWARF LORD


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## elithraniel (Aug 15, 2003)

My opinion:
Frodo didn't fail.

_"I will take the Ring to Mordor, though I do not know the way."_


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## Beleg (Aug 15, 2003)

You are offcourse entitled to have your opinion, but might I ask why do you think Frodo didn't fail? 
That's a very passionate Quote but I believe one of the reasons for Frodo's wanting to go to the Quest was that subconciously he wanted to reclaim the ring. He didn't want to get away from the ring, the ring was steadily spreading its power and it was a great motivating force behind his acceptance of the ring. 
It was an allready effected Frodo who left Rinvendell.


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## Celebthôl (Aug 15, 2003)

Im not asking for reasons inside the story, i want to know what Mr Tolkien made Frodo fail, after all the fuss made that Hobbits are resiliant etc...


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## elithraniel (Aug 15, 2003)

> _Posted by Beleg_
> You are offcourse entitled to have your opinion, but might I ask why do you think Frodo didn't fail?



Frodo did what he had set out to do, and he did not fail in doing so. The Lady of Lorien knew that if he did not find a way, no one would. And, when Frodo reached Mt. Doom, his task was compete, he had done what he had set out to do. And then Gollum's role came into place, as even Gandalf had forseen "for good or evil." That was Gollum's task, Gollum's part in the destruction of the Ring... not Frodo's. _Frodo did exactly what he had set out to do._ Nobody could have asked him to do more.

That is why I think Frodo didn't fail.. because he didn't!  

(The threads that _really_ bug me are 'would so and so have been a better ring bearer?' and you can see why!)


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## Beleg (Aug 16, 2003)

> Frodo did what he had set out to do, and he did not fail in doing so. The Lady of Lorien knew that if he did not find a way, no one would. And, when Frodo reached Mt. Doom, his task was compete, he had done what he had set out to do. And then Gollum's role came into place, as even Gandalf had forseen "for good or evil." That was Gollum's task, Gollum's part in the destruction of the Ring... not Frodo's. Frodo did exactly what he had set out to do. Nobody could have asked him to do more.



First of all the task appointed upon the ringbearer was to find a way of destroying the ring. And the Ring won't be destroyed just by reaching Mount Doom. And as for Gollum's task, was the role of Gollum in the Quest of the ring forseen? Was it known that Gollum would be present at the cracks of doom to snatch the ring and then topple over the brink into the chasm? 
If the object was only that the ring should reach Mount Doom, then there wouldn't have been an easier way found of handing enemy the ring. I don't believe that atleast Gollums part in this was predestined. In the end Frodo failed in his Quest, because he sccucumbed to the lure of the ring, and wasn't able to throw the ring into the cracks of Doom. It was only by the chancy intervision of Gollum that the Ring was destroyed. 
You are claiming that Gollum's part was to destroy the ring. I find this more then a little weird. 
You are also implying that the whole thing was predestined, if such was the case then why go through so much hardships to reach the aim?


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## elithraniel (Aug 16, 2003)

Goodness, goodness, goodness! I guess some people will never really see what I see. That's okay, sometimes thats the way things are.


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## BlackCaptain (Aug 16, 2003)

I see what you see, but the quest was to destroy the Ring. Frodo did not complete this quest, so some could say he failed. But it would be physicaly, mentaly, and emotionaly impossible for Frodo (or anyone) to have destroyed the Ring. Frodo technically did fail, but anyone else in Middle Earth would have, so we can not blame him.

Eledhwen, your opinion with Gandalf and his foresight that Gollum had a role to play clears up alot for me, wonderful observation. Kudos


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## jallan (Aug 17, 2003)

Gandalf and the others certainly had their doubts about Frodo, but also about any other bearer.

Also Gandalf probably planned to accompany Frodo all the way which also might have made a difference in the end. Gandalf's power was largely in encouragement against despair.


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