# Tar-Meneldur's choice



## Noldor_returned (Sep 21, 2008)

For those of you who have read Unfinished Tales, you may remember a chapter in it called Aldarion and Erendis, in which Gil-galad asks Tar-Meneldur the King of Numenor for assistance against the new dark power.

In any case, a few particular paragraphs stuck out to me:



> 'When the Valar gave to us the Land of Gift they did not make us their vice-gerents: we were given the Kingdom of Numenor, not of the world. They are the Lords. Here we were to put away hatred and war; for war was ended, and Morgoth thrust forth from Arda. So I deemed, and so was taught.
> 'Yet if the world grows again dark, the Lords must know; and they have sent me no sign. Unless this be the sign. What then? Our fathers were rewarded for the aid they gave in the defeat of the Great Shadow. Shall their sons stand aloof, if evil finds a new head?
> 'I am in too great doubt to rule. To prepare or to let be? To prepare for war, which is yet only guessed: train craftsmen and tillers in the midst of peace for bloodspilling and battle: put iron in the hands of greedy captains who will love only conquest, and count the slain as their glory? Will they say to Eru: _At least your enemies were amongst them? _Or to fold hands, while friends die unjustly: let men line in blind peace, until the ravisher is at the gate? What then will they do: match naked hands against iron and die in vain, or flee leaving the cries of women behind them? Will they say to Eru: _At least I spilled no blood?'_


 
Anyway, Meneldur abdicates, Aldarion becomes king and assists the elves, and the rest, of course, is history.

But, I was wondering, if no help had been sent, would Numenor have fallen? And then might things be different? Alternatively, has sending the help saved the world because Suaron was defeated the first time, and the ring taken from him?

So, the question is what would you have done? Sent help or remained peaceful? Remember what Meneldur said, because the Lords of the West put the men on Numenor to remain peaceful, but Meneldur also raised the point that they would have to defend themselves if it came to it, and could not stay peaceful forever.

What would you do?


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## Illuin (Sep 21, 2008)

> by Noldor_returned
> _For those of you who have read Unfinished Tales, you may remember a chapter in it called Aldarion and Erendis, in which Gil-galad asks Tar-Meneldur the King of Numenor for assistance against the new dark power._


 
Unfortunately, at the moment, I do not have the time to dig deep into this ( I wish I did). But, all I can say is that chapter of UT (_*Aldarion and Erendis*_) is in the top five of Tolkien‘s mythological best…..ever. _*Of Beren and Lúthien*_; *Of the Voyage of Eärendil*; *The Stairs of Cirith Ungol* (along with *Shelob‘s Lair*); _*Riddles in the Dark*;_ and *The Bridge of Khazad-Dûm* may be the only worthy contenders.


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## Alcuin (Sep 21, 2008)

What a great question.

Yes, Tar-Meneldur did exactly the right thing. He had to help Gil-galad and the Eldar in Middle-earth. But he himself did not do this: he resigned the throne as a matter of policy, and let his son Tar-Aldarion direct it instead. 

Aldarion was the natural choice for this: he was familiar with the situation in Middle-earth, and he would not have sat still while Gil-galad and the Elves suffered. Besides, to have turned their backs on their ancient allies would have been unethical, immoral, and unthinkable. Meneldur’s grandfather was Amandil, and Amandil’s grandfather was Elros: the memory was too close to be ignored, and so was the kinship between Meneldur and Gil-galad. (They were third cousins five times removed: something a Hobbit might appreciate, at any rate; no doubt Meneldur was aware of it.) 

When Aldarion went to Middle-earth, Meneldur acted as his regent: again, an excellent choice. 

The other question is Meneldur’s advice on the relationship between Aldarion and Erendis. That is far more difficult: parents cannot interfere in their children’s marriages. The story is enough to break your heart: Aldarion was a little too ambitious, and Erendis a little too selfish. She would not dance at the return of her husband as had the wife of his cousin’s sheepherder, her neighbor Ulbar; and both were too proud – and frankly, too arrogant – to either admit error or search for solution. In the end, Erendis committed suicide: very sad altogether. 

But Meneldur was not responsible for this. His decisions seem to me to have been sound, particularly his policy towards Gil-galad, which he relinquished to Aldarion, while Aldarion seems to have largely left domestic policy in the hands of his father.


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## Gordis (Sep 22, 2008)

A good question indeed. I also voted for helping the Elves, regardless of my dislike of them. But still: Numenoreans did have moral obligations towards their ancient allies and kin. 
Also, what would have happened if Numenoreans never sailed to Middle-Earth, never took action there? They would have become like the Elves of Lorien, minding only their own business, watching stars and studying ancient lore. They wouldn't need any progress, becoming rustic like hobbits in the Shire. Isolationism is not the path leading to greatness. 
They wouldn't have been first and foremost on Sauron's agenda, but he would have come for them eventually - and they would have become too weak and peaceful to fight him.

As for Aldarion and Erendis: woe to Aldarion who had married such a shrew!


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## Noldor_returned (Sep 22, 2008)

Okay Alcuin, but if you were in Meneldur's position and were unable to resign, what would you do?

See, Meneldur or Aldarion may have incurred the wrath of the Valar by breaking their intentions. The Valar wanted Numenor to be peaceful, and so was it possible by assisting the elves that their downfall would have ocurred anyway?

Yes, Sauron would come for the Numenoreans at some point. But was it not possible for them to protect themselves? In this could they have fulfilled their peaceful purpose while saving themselves?


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## Alcuin (Sep 22, 2008)

Noldor_returned said:


> See, Meneldur or Aldarion may have incurred the wrath of the Valar by breaking their intentions. The Valar wanted Numenor to be peaceful, and so was it possible by assisting the elves that their downfall would have ocurred anyway?


Where does Tolkien say that the Valar had ordered or intended for the Númenóreans to lead some sort of idealistic, peaceful existence? He never does. The Edain were given Anadûnê as a gift: another name, “Andor,” means “Land of Gift.” That gift, in turn, was for their faithfulness during the Wars against Morgoth. Not for peace, but for perseverance and suffering in war. 

Had the Númenóreans failed to face and resist evil, would they have still deserved the Land of Gift? As Gandalf observed, in _Fellowship of the Ring_, “The Council of Elrond,”


> …it is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world. We should seek a final end of this menace, even if we do not hope to make one.


Gandalf was speaking of the Ring, but Aldarion and Gil-galad did not create the situation they faced: they were responding to Sauron’s probes and attacks, to the evil that had begun not in the First Age before, not in the Time of the Trees, but even before that: it is in Arda a never-ending struggle against evil. The Dúnedain were not exempted from this struggle because they had the fortune to migrate to Númenor: what of the Edain whom the Eldar did not convey to Númenor, who wanted to go, but by command of the Valar were left in Middle-earth? Were they lesser beings? The Black Númenóreans, the King’s Men, would say yes; surely the Rohirrim would disagree! 

I cannot accept your premise. Sometimes the choices we are presented are all difficult, and as Gildor observed, “all courses may run ill.” The Númenóreans had no better choice: this was the dilemma that Meneldur faced; his solution was to hand that decision to his son, who had the best information and was closer to the problem, _even though his relationship with his son was strained by his disagreement with Aldarion about Erendis and the rest of Aldarion’s “domestic policy.”_ I think that shows a profound wisdom, and trust that Eru would work this conundrum to some good end. Meneldur would be hard-pressed to find a better solution.


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## Durin's Bane (Sep 22, 2008)

On one hand we have honouring ancient allies and _moral obligations towards_ them. Yet on the other hand is sending men to die in distant lands for someone else's cause. The Numenorias fought hard to earn their 'gift land' and peace. Should I throw that away because some elves were having trouble on the other end of the world?
And NO, Tar-Meneldur did not do the right thing, which is making a choice. He resigned, leaving the choice to someone else.
Me? I would not send my men to die needlessly. If some of them want to honour the allegiance I'll let them go, but I will not order any of them to join the war!


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## Alcuin (Sep 22, 2008)

Durin's Bane said:


> And NO, Tar-Meneldur did not do the right thing, which is making a choice. He resigned, leaving the choice to someone else.
> Me? I would not send my men to die needlessly. If some of them want to honour the allegiance I'll let them go, but I will not order any of them to join the war!


I don’t think either Meneldur or Aldarion “ordered” anyone to go. They probably didn’t have to: there were likely enough Númenóreans who wanted to go, who thought that either the adventure or the ancient tie was a strong draw that they simply said, _Everyone who wants to go, go with Aldarion._ I don’t believe there is any textual evidence for compulsory service in Númenor until the days of Ar-Pharazôn. 

As for handing off a decision to someone else who is in a better position to make the correct decision, that is wisdom; to do otherwise is pride.


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## Durin's Bane (Sep 22, 2008)

If Aldarion knew what was happening in middle earth why Gil-Galad didn't ask him directly?
"Take a battalion and come to assist me, will ya?" Why asking the king?

And:


> To prepare for war, which is yet only guessed: train craftsmen and tillers in the midst of peace for bloodspilling and battle



Yeah, I take it he had to issue some orders.



> put iron in the hands of greedy captains who will love only conquest, and count the slain as their glory?



And, yeah, I don't think there were that many who'd go to war to honour old alliances.


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## Alcuin (Sep 22, 2008)

Durin's Bane said:


> If Aldarion knew what was happening in middle earth why Gil-Galad didn't ask him directly?
> "Take a battalion and come to assist me, will ya?" Why asking the king?
> ...
> Yeah, I take it he had to issue some orders.


I strongly disagree with you. I believe you can produce no textual evidence that either Meneldur or Aldarion commanded the Númenóreans to go to war, only that Meneldur stepped aside while Aldarion led those who would go. No doubt the royal house financed the expedition: the king and the government were a personal union. But that does not imply that Meneldur raised the whole nation of the Dúnedain or conscripted anyone to war.


Durin's Bane said:


> And, yeah, I don't think there were that many who'd go to war to honour old alliances.


I think you demean the character of the Dúnedain, who honored their allegiance to the end of the Third Age, over 6,000 years.


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## Noldor_returned (Sep 22, 2008)

Aldarion already had his Venturers, so there are some. It also says later in UT that he was too late or too early. Too late because he had arrived after Sauron's appearance, and too early because the threat was not imminent enough for Numenor to show its strength.

So possibly, Aldarion immediately sent too much force for the time? And since he was more involved than Meneldur, wouldn't he know that it didn't require the force he sent? So did Aldarion, knowing the situation, do the right thing? If he was too early, why would he have sent soldiers? Why not develop Numenor's strength and build up their own strength?


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## Illuin (Sep 22, 2008)

> By Alcuin
> _I don’t think either Meneldur or Aldarion “ordered” anyone to go. They probably didn’t have to: there were likely enough Númenóreans who wanted to go_


 

I seem to be missing something in this debate. It is true that Tar-Aldarion was responsible for laying an important foundation for great naval forces, and assisted Gil-galad in the building of naval strongholds (_Vinyalondë etc.); _however_, _this was over 600 years before any from Numenor were involved in actual “combat” with Sauron. Tar-Minastir (633 years after Aldarion) was the first to actually engage Sauron in war. Very interesting conversation, but you are jumping the gun a bit here. 

Even though this is a quote from Tolkien’s son Christopher, I think it is fairly accurate:

_"Aldarion was too late, or too early. Too late: for the power that hated Númenor had already waked. Too early: for the time was not yet ripe for Númenor to show its power or to come back into the battle for the world."_

You are indeed far too early with your talk of war.


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## Alcuin (Sep 22, 2008)

You are correct, *Illuin*. We are centuries before the commencement of war against Sauron or Númenórean domination of Middle-earth.

Those Dúnedain who wanted to go to Middle-earth went. They built Vinyalondë, and they harvested the great forests of Eriador: “of the Old Forest … all that now remains is but an outlier of its northern march,” said Elrond. It was profitable, it was exciting: Ulbar was a shepherd from Emerië, but he went with Aldarion and found adventure, and probably a good deal more money than the other shepherds. 

Nor do I agree that Sauron would eventually have struck across the Great Sea to assault Númenor. Morgoth’s servants were afraid of the sea, and while was it within sight of Avallónë, it was far from the shores of Middle-earth; besides, there was too great a risk that the Eldar and Valar might come to the aid of the Dúnedain.

Had Aldarion not begun his works, however, Sauron might have swept the Eldar into the sea during the first war of the Rings in II 1693-1700, when Sauron launched his attack upon Celebrimbor and Eregion, upon Gil-galad, and against Lindon.


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## Noldor_returned (Sep 22, 2008)

But was it worth the ruin of Numenor? That was the result, and even though they had no way of knowing what would happen, do you risk sending your own people on a dangerous voyage to protect an old alliance? And yes, I know battle began much later but Meneldur knew that to assist Gil-galad required arms, and so the production began. IMO, this is where the shadow first fell on Numenor, because with armaments comes war. Look at World War One, prior to that around 1905-1914 was the arms race, which raised tensions among the powers. Sir Edward Grey, British foreign minister during the war even said it himself that armaments lead to war. So by preparing for war, not actually engaging in it, was it just as harmful as fighting? Would it have been better to remain uninvolved?


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## Gordis (Sep 23, 2008)

But it was not Tar-Meneldur's decision to get involved in Middle-Earth. It has happened naturally, not on order. Aldarion started his voyages and built Vinyalonde prior to Gil-Galad's request. And he was not the first to go there:


> When six hundred years had passed from the beginning of the Second Age Vëantur, Captain of King's Ships under Tar-Elendil, first achieved the voyage to Middle-earth. He brought his ship Entulessë (which signifies "Return") into Mithlond on the spring winds blowing from the west; and he returned in the autumn of the following year. Thereafter seafaring became the chief enterprise for daring and hardihood among the men of Númenor; and Aldarion son of Meneldur, whose wife was Vëantur's daughter, formed the Guild of Venturers, in which were joined all the tried mariners of Númenor.


When Numenor has ports and settlements in Middle-Earth, it can't help to become involved in the ME politics and wars, even independantly from the Elves. To continue their peaceful existance in the Paradise Island, the Numenorean mariners would have to be _prohibited _to go to Middle-Earth at all.
So what? The Ban to go West, the ban to go East? And you think the Numenoreans would have been content with it?


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## Noldor_returned (Sep 23, 2008)

Then does that mean Meneldur should not have abdicated, and committed to the affairs in ME? Because as you say, Numenor had territory there, and so they should defend it. But was it worth the lives that he sent there, despite being a peaceful people during their time in Westernesse?

They had been involved in war before, but on Numenor they were not, so was it right for Numenor to resume their warmongering? It takes two to make a war after all...


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## Alcuin (Sep 23, 2008)

Noldor_returned said:


> ...was it right for Numenor to resume their warmongering? It takes two to make a war after all...


Not so. As Tolkien observed through Éowyn’s comments to the Warden of the Houses of Healing in _RotK_


> ‘It needs but one foe to breed a war, not two, Master Warden,’ answered Éowyn. ‘And those who have not swords can still die upon them. Would you have the folk of Gondor gather you herbs only, when the Dark Lord gathers armies? And it is not always good to be healed in body. Nor is it always evil to die in battle, even in bitter pain…’


It was an apt comment in the early 1940s, when the British government under Chamberlain had done everything possible to avoid war.

Nor were the Númenóreans “warmongers.” That was the point of Meneldur’s dilemma: he does indeed seem to have held a pacifist position toward problems in Middle-earth. Since their arrival in Númenor, the Dúnedain had made neither war nor implements for war. Nor had they any extensive territorial holdings in Middle-earth: the only one mentioned for this period is Vinyalondë, which was constructed at the behest of Tar-Aldarion.


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## Durin's Bane (Sep 23, 2008)

Alcuin said:


> No doubt the royal house financed the expedition. But that does not imply that Meneldur raised the whole nation of the Dúnedain or conscripted anyone to war.



Sorry but I have to answer to that. You do realise you are wrong here, don't you? Where do the money in the royal house come form if not from the people? How about the ships that had to be made to carry the army? How about provisions? How about shields and swords and armors for that army? The people did that just because some elves they have never met asked them to?



Alcuin said:


> I think you demean the character of the Dúnedain, who honored their allegiance to the end of the Third Age, over 6,000 years.



Those Dúnedain lived in Middel Earth. They were part of the war already. They weren't honoring anything, they were fighting for their lives.

I demean them? Or you give them too much credit? They are MEN, remember? Easily corrupted by the ring, right?


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 23, 2008)

Durin's Bane said:


> The people did that just because some elves they have never met asked them to?



So the criterion is if you have never met someone in person, they are unworthy of your help? Regardless if your ancestors fought and died in battle together with theirs, that you are _related_ to them, that Sauron was a continuation of the great evil of the First Age and could not be mistaken for anything else?


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## Noldor_returned (Sep 25, 2008)

Ok, well why didn't the elves request help from the Valar? Why bring the men into this?


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## Ingolmin (Dec 11, 2016)

I think that Tar Meneldur's choice was absolutely fine that he should appoint Aldarion, his son as the King as should himself act as a regent if Aldarion went to the sea. This was a sound decision. But Aldarion's help was great indeed but it did not do much good. For even Tolkien said that Tar Aldarion was too early or rather to late to amend the evil that the Middle Earth was facing. Sending help to the elves in middle earth was a good decision of King Aldarion.
I do not believe that Numenore would have fallen at that time because at that time the men of Westernesse were great as they were both wise as well as mighty. They did not oppose the Valar nor had any enmity. Numenore could not fallen at that time if Sauron would have even dared to attack it.


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