# Fingolfin's Wrath and Despair



## Maedhros (Mar 7, 2003)

I would like to explore the subject of the Debate about Fingolfin, here goes the premise:


> from 'Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin'
> 
> 'Then Fingolfin beheld (as it seemed to him) the utter ruin of the Noldor, and the defeat beyond redress of all their houses; and filled with wrath and despair he mounted upon Rochallor his great horse and rode forth alone, and none might restrain him. He passed over Dor-nu-Fauglith like a wind amid the dust, and all that beheld his onset fled in amaze, thinking that Oromë himself was come: for a great madness of rage was upon him, so that his eyes shone like the eyes of the Valar. Thus he came alone to Angband's gates, and he sounded his horn, and smote once more upon the brazen doors, and challenged Morgoth to come forth to single combat. And Morgoth came.'


The question for the debate is simply this: Did Fingolfin throw his life away purposely? Did he believe that he could overthrow Morgoth in single combat or was this deed (no matter how worthy) an act of suicide?


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## Ancalagon (Mar 7, 2003)

Thank you Maedhros for opening this debate out to all members. I know this is an extremely contentious issue as it is very much driven by the emotion of Fingolfin and his 'state of min' upon setting out to oppose Morgoth in hand-to-hand combat. Not an easy task for even the mightiest of the Valar, let alone an Eldar. Insurmountable odds that even the wisest among Arda's inhabitants (including Fingolfin) could predict the final outcome. 

I look forward to locking horns with those of a differing opinion to myself


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## Celebthôl (Mar 7, 2003)

Is this debate open to all members on the forum? Or just those in the Guild of Scholars?


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## Celebthôl (Mar 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Maedhros _
> *I would like to explore the subject of the Debate about Fingolfin, here goes the premise:
> 
> The question for the debate is simply this: Did Fingolfin throw his life away purposely? Did he believe that he could overthrow Morgoth in single combat or was this deed (no matter how worthy) an act of suicide? *



Before I go on, did the Eldar know that when a Maia or Valar dies their soul leaves the body and can take a new form? As from my readings i have never run into anything that explains this (well for this early in the history of Arda)



> *Then Morgoth hurled aloft Grond, the hammer of the under-world, and swung it down like a bolt of thunder. But Fingolfin sprang aside, and Grond rent a mighty pit in the earth, whence smoke and fire darted. Many time Morgoth essayed to smite him, and each time Fingolfin lept away, as a lightning shoots from under a dark cloud; and he wounded Morgoth with seven wounds, and seven timme Morgoth gave a cry of anguish, whereat the host of Angband fell upon their faces in dismay, and the cries echoed in the Northlands
> But at the last the King grew wiery and Morgoth bore down his shield upon him. Thrice he was crushed down to his knees, and thrice he arose again and bore up his broken shield and stricken helm. But the earth was all rent and pitted about him, and he stumbled and fell back before the feet of Morgoth; and Morgoth set his left foot upon his neck, and the weight of it was like a fallen hill. Yet with his last and desperate stroke Fingolfin hewed the foot with Ringil, and the blood gushed forth black and smoking and filled the pits of Grond *



This shows he bleeds, so if according to my question earlier, Fingolfin did not know that Morgoth wouldnt wholey (sp) die, then to him Morgoth is just a normal foe (in the sence that he can die, for there has been shown no evidence to disuade this), and when Morgoth beld this would just back up his belief, so as far as i can see Fingolfin all along thought he should have been able to kill Morgoth once and for all (if luck was on his side), therefore his riding out (in his own eyes anyway) was not suicide but a mighty and brave action to do.

Thôl


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## Elendil3119 (Mar 8, 2003)

> 'Despair, or folly?', said Gandalf. 'It is not despair, for despair is only for those that see the end beyond all doubt. We do not. It is wisdom to recognize necessity, when all other courses have been weighed, though as folly it may appear to those who cling to false hope.'



Fingolfin could not have seen the end 'beyond all doubt'. The fall of the Noldor was not guarantied. I think the more important statement is:


> (as it seemed to him)


. I would argue that Fingolfin did NOT weigh all other courses before he acted. It appears Fingolfin threw away his life out of despair, but I believe it was out of rashness. He may have thought he could overthrow Morgoth, but he obviously did not take the time to think his actions over. Insetead of despair, he threw his life away out of folly.

--Elendil3119--


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## Goldberry (Mar 9, 2003)

I think it was blind fury that drove Fingolfin. It can make you do very rash and stupid things. It can also give you the strength to actually succeed at them.

I think another influential theme in this story is that of David & Goliath - a little guy can win against a much bigger and more powerful guy. I think we as readers were supposed to believe Fingolfin was going to win and that Fingolfin thought he could win. Even though JRRT gave the theme a twist, and Fingolfin died, he was still able to inflict some notable damage on Morgoth first.


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## gate7ole (Mar 9, 2003)

When discussing the possible motives of Fingolfin, we should remember that the Eldar did not know the state of Morgoth at the time. They could not have perceived his spoiling, his spreading of power in his so-called Ring. On the contrary, never leaving his chambers, he must have been imagined as very terrifying and inconquerable, especially after his win at Dagor Bragollach. Fingolfin was a wise elf, but his knowledge was limited. He couldn't have possible known that Morgoth had been so much linked with his incarnate form, that he would be possibly slain.


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## Celebithil (Mar 10, 2003)

I believe that Fingolfin did what he believed was necessary as a King who first duty is to his people. As it say he beheld the doom of the Noldor and that all was going to fall and I believe he reasoned that the only hope for his people was to try an assault upon Morgoth himself. In the mind of Fingolfin if he lost it wouldn't change the fate of the Noldor who he already believe to be doomed, while if he were to defeat Morgoth or in some way incapacitate him he would save his people. I believe that his judgement is faulty and may have acted rashly but I believe that in his mind it was his duty to do everything possible to prevent the downfall of his people.


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## Anamatar IV (Mar 10, 2003)

I say Fingolfin went with no intent of dying. 

From the Silmarillion:



> And he [Feanor] cursed also the summons of Manwë and the hour in which he came to Taniquetil, thinking in the madness of his rage and grief that had he been at Formenos his strength would have availed more than to be slain also, as Melkor had purposed.



The same terms are used in the quote of which this debate is centered upon:



> for a great madness of rage was upon him,



So I believe that the same thought ran between the two greatest of the Eldar:

Feanor: his father was killed and the Silmarils stolen. In his rage he thought had he been there he could have slain Morgoth.

Fingolfin: his people are in ruin, the might of Morgoth has been seen in its full form, there is no hope. In his rage of defeat he thinks he can overthrow Morgoth by himself.

It has been said that Fingolfin is not like of mind as Feanor. But yet they are both Noldor. They both have a profound hatred for Morgoth, they both had Finwe as a father, they both beheld the majesty of the Valar. They cannot be so different in mind that in such a rage they think so differently.


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## Mirabella (Mar 14, 2003)

Everything that I have ever read regarding the psychological state of people who committ suicide suggests that the decision to take one's own life is not an impulse that is acted upon without thought. Rather, it is a decision reached after careful weighing of all options and the realization that death is the only way out of a difficult situation.

None of this seems to fit Fingolfin's act of challenging Morgoth. I believe that Fingolfin's realization of the Noldor's ultimate defeat overthrew his mind, and he acted in an impulsive, rash manner. His mind was consumed with anger and intent upon vengeance only...not the destruction of his own life.


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## BlackCaptain (Mar 14, 2003)

If he was aiming to commit suicide, he would have just done it himself. I think that this was the last stand for him. He saw no hope left, and just thought "What the Udûn, I might as well end with a bang." He probably was just so mad and upset, that he would do anything to further the damage to Melkor.

It's like the Captains of the West at the Moranon. They knew that they were going to die (although they didn't) and just decided that they would put thier last imprint on Sauron. Luckily for them though, Frodo destroyed the Ring. This raises another question... Even though all hope was gone for the Captains of the West, they still defeated Sauron through hope. What was the other force at work?


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## Anamatar IV (Mar 14, 2003)

MorgulKing, about the Battle at the Morannon, Gandalf's intentions in urging the captains to go was to draw Sauron's attention from his own boundaries so Frodo could go easier. Remember Gandalf's seemingly despair when the Mouth of Sauron showed to him the Mithril Coat. THEN maybe the Captains of the West wanted to leave an imprint of some sort.


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## BlackCaptain (Mar 14, 2003)

Well yes... Thats what I meant. Notice i said the BATLE of the Moranon, not the Argument of the Moranon.


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## Maedhros (Mar 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by gate7ole _
> *When discussing the possible motives of Fingolfin, we should remember that the Eldar did not know the state of Morgoth at the time. They could not have perceived his spoiling, his spreading of power in his so-called Ring. On the contrary, never leaving his chambers, he must have been imagined as very terrifying and inconquerable, especially after his win at Dagor Bragollach. Fingolfin was a wise elf, but his knowledge was limited. He couldn't have possible known that Morgoth had been so much linked with his incarnate form, that he would be possibly slain. *


I don't think this is quite correct. From _Morgoth's Ring: The Later Quentas, The Valaquenta_


> _The Valaquenta_ texts end thus, and speak of the Marring of Arda, the underlying concern of many of the writings given subsequently in this book:
> Here ends _The Valaquenta_. If it has passed from the high and beautiful to darkness and ruin, that was of old the fate of Arda Marred; and if any change shall come and the Marring be amended, Manwë and Varda may know; but they have not revealed it, and it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos.


If the elves knew about the Marring of Arda, then they must have know that it was the Melkor who was the Marrer, and how could he Marred something without spending his power on it.
However, we know that the Ainulindalë was written by Rúmil, was the Valaquenta written by him also? I think that it is very probable that he did also.
There is the possiblity that Fingolfin was not aware of this at that time, or maybe he did know about it.


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## gate7ole (Mar 17, 2003)

> Posted by Maedhros
> If the elves knew about the Marring of Arda, then they must have know that it was the Melkor who was the Marrer, and how could he Marred something without spending his power on it.
> However, we know that the Ainulindalë was written by Rúmil, was the Valaquenta written by him also? I think that it is very probable that he did also.


I think you’re making a mistake here. Whatever Rúmil wrote, it was _after_ the events. We know that the writings of the Quenta Silmarillion (and other tales included) were the product of the knowledge of the Númenóreans passed to them by the Elves of Tol Eressëa. Whoever wrote those lines you are referring to (Rúmil or someone), it was after-knowledge, probably gained from the Valar themselves for some aspects of theology (like Melkor’s spreading over Middle Earth).
To know something during the time of the Silmarillion, the Noldor had to be taught this before rebelling. And how could the Valar teach them this, even if _they_ couldn’t know it? From _Myths Tranfromed_:


> Manwe at last faces Melkor again, as he has not done since he entered Arda. Both are amazed: Manwe to perceive the decrease in Melkor as a person; Melkor to perceive this also from his own point of view: he has now less personal force than Manwe, and can no longer daunt him with his gaze.
> Either Manwe must tell him so or he must himself suddenly realize (or both) that this has happened: he is 'dispersed'. But the lust to have creatures under him, dominated, has become habitual and necessary to Melkor, so that even if the process was reversible (possibly was by absolute and unfeigned self-abasement and repentance only) he cannot bring himself to do it.


Not even Manwe had any idea of the diminishment of Melkor (in fact not even Melkor, though he must have sensed it in his fear).
This knowledge came to the Valar _afterwards_ and thus the Noldor learnt it afterwards. At the time of Fingolfin’s death, it was an unknown fact. The Noldor had indeed no way of recognizing Morgoth’s personal weakness, who hidden inside his deep halls, was unassailable.


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## Inderjit S (Mar 17, 2003)

> Not even Manwe had any idea of the diminishment of Melkor (in fact not even Melkor, though he must have sensed it in his fear).



Nope.



> So they come to Utumno itslef and find that 'the Morgoth' has no longer for the moment 'sufficent force'...Manwe at last faces Melkor...Manwe to perecieve the decrease in Melkor as a person


 HoME 10-Morgoths Ring.


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## gate7ole (Mar 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Inderjit S _
> *
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry, but do you agree or disagree with me? 
Because the quote (which is in fact a bit before my quote) you provided proves that I'm right and Manwe realizes Morgoth's diminishment only when he faces him.


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## Maedhros (Mar 17, 2003)

Well, the quote that you used from _Myths Transformed_, was from the attack of the Valar on Utumno.


> The war against Utumno was only undertaken by the Valar with reluctance, and without hope of real victory, but rather as a covering action or diversion, to enable them to get the Quendi out of his sphere of influence. But Melkor had already progressed some way towards becoming 'the Morgoth, a tyrant (or central tyranny and will), + his agents'. Only the total contained the old power of the complete Melkor; so that if 'the Morgoth' could be reached or temporarily separated from his agents he was much more nearly controllable and on a power-level with the Valar. The Valar find that they can deal with his agents (sc. armies, Balrogs, etc.) piecemeal. So that they come at last to Utumno itself and find that 'the Morgoth' has no longer for the moment sufficient 'force' (in any sense) to shield himself from direct personal contact.


So, it is before the Ñoldor fled to ME, hence your assumption that


> This knowledge came to the Valar afterwards and thus the Noldor learnt it afterwards. At the time of Fingolfin’s death, it was an unknown fact.


 is wrong.
But he have this little bit from _Morgoth's Ring: Athrabeth Finrod Ah Athrabeth_


> Whoever wrote those lines you are referring to (Rúmil or someone), it was after-knowledge, probably gained from the Valar themselves for some aspects of theology (like Melkor’s spreading over Middle Earth).


This is not necessarily true. Pengoloð, who is mentioned in the Ainulindalë, was an exile of Gondolin. I don't recall any evidence that Rúmil is not an exile, tough it is very likely that he is. There is a possiblity that the Ñoldor knew that Morgoth was not as powerful as once he was.


> 'That I can well believe,' said Finrod: 'that your bodies suffer in some measure the malice of Melkor. For you live in Arda Marred, as do we, and all the matter of Arda was tainted by him, before ye or we came forth and drew our hröar and their sustenance therefrom: all save only maybe Aman before he came there


This took place before the Dagor Bragollach too. So there is a good posibility that if the Ñoldor knew of the Marring of Arda by Melkor, then it was possible of that they knew of the loss of inherent power of him.


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## gate7ole (Mar 18, 2003)

I thought I would catch Maedhros being mistaken. I should have known better! 
Seriously now, I'm totally unforgiven that I didn't check that the quote I mentioned referred to the first capture of Morgoth.
I'm sorry


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## Maedhros (Mar 18, 2003)

hehe. It happens to everyone gate7ole. Even me.


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## Arvedui (Apr 20, 2004)

This thread has been moved out of the Guild of Scholar's Hall, and will hopefully be filled with the thoughts of more members.


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## Alatar (Jul 9, 2005)

I am unsure wether he thought that it was sucide, as i do not think he was thinking, could he have just wanted to go onew on one with melkor, as he thought that Melkor had killed them all or soon would.


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## Thorondor_ (Jul 9, 2005)

If all he wanted to do is avenge the death of the noldor by doing some damage before going down in flames, he would just engage any army of Morgoth.
But, in order for Morgoth to answer his callenge, Fingolfind _had _to be alone. I think he thought he had a good shot at Melkor.


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## Inderjit S (Jul 9, 2005)

Fingolfin, at the time, thought the war was hopeless, as the Bëorians, Angrod and Aegnor and the Fëanorians had been overthrown, Fingolfin, being a Finwëan, decided to (somewhat hopelessly) challenge Morgoth to a fight, one which perhaps he couldn't win, but is seemed to him that the war couldn't be won, so he just wanted to do some damage to Morgoth, at least enough to show him he was not impotent, and no craven. I admire all of the House of Finwë very much, especially the branches of Fëanor and Fingolfin.

I think that perhaps, if it wasn't for the strife in the House of Finwë and the Noldor on the whole, as well as the Curse of Mandos, the Noldor would have overthrown the "agents" of Morgoth, though perhaps not Morgoth himself, though I think it was possible for them to overcome him and take him back to Valinor, though not highly probable. Fëanor and Fingolfin certianly would have been formidable allies. But, alas, it was not to be.


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## Ingwë (Jul 10, 2005)

Many great users have posted in this thread and many interesting things are mentioned  
_Now, _I want to say something... my oppinion...
I think that Fingolfin knew quite well that he can't destroy Melkor - Ainu, and of the most powerful - a Vala, though then he wasn't counted among the Valar. 
Here is one great thread: *Melkor's Mortality: Did They Have A Chance?* 
I think that Fingolfin cannot destroy the Vala; but it is said that Melkor know what is _fear_ and he was the only Vala who knew what is that. Maybe Fingolfin knew that and he just tried but he knew that his chance is only... hm... 1%. But we know that Fingolfin was the strongest of the elves. 
Melkor killed so many fair elves, men and creatures... Fingolfin wanted to destroy that Evil and he thought that he can damage Melkor. But he couldn't...


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## Alatar (Jul 10, 2005)

I think tat if 10 elves had followed their lord, they could have fired arrows at him, the with Throndor, fly to a safe height, and trow a big rock on him.... or somthing?


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## Thorondor_ (Jul 10, 2005)

If Fingolfin weren't alone, then Morgoth would just send the balrogs to finnish them up. That's why I said it was crucial that Fingolfin is alone, so that Morgoth is compeled to answer the challenge.


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## Inderjit S (Jul 10, 2005)

Morgoth certainly could be slain because at the end of the F.A he was in a weakened state and resigned to his body, thus he was afraid of venturing out to war, and he was eventually executed by Mandos. (That is his body was destroyed, he had become incarnate.) So I think Fingolfin had a chance, whether or not he knew this I don't know, but as I said, the chance was slim.


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## cupn00dles (Jul 11, 2005)

I hardly think that he just threw his life away... I think that he felt as if everything was lost, as if the elves had nothing else to lose and that mixed with all the feelings he brought with him about all the disgraces that his people had suffered since the departure from Aman led him to his limit and in that moment nothing else mattered, he just HAD to face Morgoth or his (and all the Noldor's) pride would be broken forever... There are fights to protect life, and fights to protect pride, and that one was to protect the pride of all the Noldor.


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## Ingwë (Jul 11, 2005)

cupn00dles said:


> I hardly think that he just threw his life away... I think that he felt as if everything was lost, as if the elves had nothing else to lose and that mixed with all the feelings he brought with him about all the disgraces that his people had suffered since the departure from Aman led him to his limit and in that moment nothing else mattered


I don't think that Fingolfin thought that everything is lost. He wanted to destroy Morgoth but he knew that he may be slain. The elves had nothing to lose? They can lose many things. They can lose their independence! They are free in the Middle earth. They escaped from Valinor to take the Silmarilli from Melkor and to be free. Fingolfin felt that the Elves have many problems with the Enemy and he just wanted to stop that Evil. Despair, foolishness and he was slain... It was stupid to go alone agains the Dark lord


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## Thorondor_ (Jul 11, 2005)

> They escaped from Valinor to take the Silmarilli from Melkor and to be free


I doubt they were any more free on M-E than they were on Valinor. And no one stopped them to leave Valinor, so they didn't "escape". I know that what you said is what most of them felt at the begining of their journey, but reality proved them wrong.


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## cupn00dles (Jul 11, 2005)

Ingwë said:


> I don't think that Fingolfin thought that everything is lost. He wanted to destroy Morgoth but he knew that he may be slain. The elves had nothing to lose? They can lose many things. They can lose their independence! They are free in the Middle earth. They escaped from Valinor to take the Silmarilli from Melkor and to be free. Fingolfin felt that the Elves have many problems with the Enemy and he just wanted to stop that Evil. Despair, foolishness and he was slain... It was stupid to go alone agains the Dark lord


 
No, no, you didn't get what I meant  It's not that the elves really didn't have anything to lose, it's just that Fingolfin in his ultimate wrath was driven with this feeling (among others, of course)... You see, it wasn't even that he thought that everything was lost, it was just a feeling caused by all the things that hapenned that driven him to the situation he was in the moment... It's like I said, a fight for pride, like when someone who fights because if he doesn't his last drop of pride will be broken... He carried on all the torments and humiliations of all his peaple to that fight, and even knowing that he could (and probably would) lose, it didn't matter, he just had to do it for the sake of his and all the Noldor's pride, you know what I mean?  

P.S.: Dunno if I made myself clear enough, but well... Whatever x)


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## Ingwë (Jul 12, 2005)

Thorondor_ said:


> I doubt they were any more free on M-E than they were on Valinor. And no one stopped them to leave Valinor, so they didn't "escape". I know that what you said is what most of them felt at the begining of their journey, but reality proved them wrong.


There weren't free, yes, but Fëanor told them that they will be free in the Middle earth. They left Valinor to take the Jewels and to be free, not to live with the Valar (you know, Fëanor doesn't like them). They (or I must say Fëanor) thought that they will destroy Melkor and they will take the Jewels and finally they will have their realms but as you say *reality proved them wrong. *I agree


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## Inderjit S (Jul 12, 2005)

It was not just Feanor who "did not like them" but the Noldor on a whole started to turn their hearts partly away from the Valar, as they felt constrained in Aman, and desired to see other lands. (Aman was the Elves "natural home", but Eru and Ulmo both questioned the wisdom of moving them from Middle-Earth-certainly this spirit of discontent was inherent in the Noldor and to a lesser degree in the Teleri. (The Vanyar, however, were always willing to go and remain in Valinor.)


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