# Luthien's Options



## Confusticated (Aug 11, 2004)

When Luthien moved Mandos to pity Manwe took council with Iluvatar and she was presented with a choice. I wonder why she was given the option of dwelling in Valinor and forgetting her sorrows. (Though how they could promise she would forget the sorrow is beyond me.) Surely she would not choose to be without Beren, and this option didn't offer anything for Beren. Nothing said that he could ever forget his sorrow as she could, so to choose to forget her own sorrow and love would have been to choose to cause Beren even more sorrow and maybe forever. And there are other reasons not to accept that option. But if she had gone this way, what then? Was that choice a moment where good might have been defeated within Ea, and all turn to evil? After all the love of these two was at the heart of the fate of Arda. If that love had failed, what was left? Why give the option when there seems to be no reason she would pick this? Was it some kind of test? Or was it simply the only reasonable alternative to becoming mortal and was offered only to keep mortality from being a demand?

Why was she given the option to live in the world with Beren as mortal, but not the option to just follow spirit from Mandos beyond the world? I would think that her second life with Beren was a great reward,even measured next to their being together in spirit for eternity (if that is the case, and especially if that is the case) This also allowed for them to have descendants. Perhaps the physical union in life would form some bond of their spirits, since this is how the elves become wed. I wonder if I am not the only one who has wondered if Beren and Luthien really did not have this union before their first deaths. I guess it is unlikely given that they went through all of that for permission, but if this wasn't beyond needing the permission of anybody then nothing is. I have always liked how Luthien eventually decides that she is at home with Beren and doesn't need to return to Menegroth. Once she realised that, why wait any longer? Don't know why I think it is unlikely, but at the same time some intuition tells me that Beren and Luthien already had made love. How could they not after all they went through? But at the same time this would leave one less special reason to live that second life (not that more years together _and_ in Ossiriand with a silmaril and a son is not enough).


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## Carcharoth (Aug 11, 2004)

Concerning the choices granted to beren and luthien by the Valar, maybe the valar already knew that they would chose a mortal life together and they just threw in the choices so they wouldn't be demanding anything.(the valar always give choices)


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## HelplessModAddi (Aug 15, 2004)

Well, concerning what would happen if Luthien chose otherwise, not only would that story suddenly find itself the top contestant for the Most Pathetic Anti-Climax in the Universe Award, but certain important people whose names usually begin with "tar" or "ar" would never be born.  

As to the Valar's motives... I wouldn't underestimate the difficulty of that choice for Luthien. I mean, yeah, sure, we all say "go with Beren! Go with true love!" but any thinking person realizes life is more complicated than that. We are talking about saying goodbye to literally _everyone_ else she knows at home. Mortals might say, "yeah, kind of like what we do when we die," but Elves are raised under the assumption that they are more or less with their families until the end of the world. "It is said that no grief of loss has ever been greater than that of Melian the Maia in that hour." Think of her childhood friends, think of her parents, think of all the people who look to her as a princess. How many of those people are going to look at what she did and say "You stupid b****, you abandoned us all, just to run off with that idiot?" Not easy. Not a foregone conclusion in the real world. Not at all.


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## Arvedui (Jan 2, 2009)

I think that Lúthien was given these spesific choises because she and Beren after all were of different "races." Lúthien was of the Elves and her _fëa_ therefore bound to Arda, while the _fëa _of the Atani leaves Arda after they die and lives on in a different "dimension."
Lúthien had to be given the choice of continuing according to the fate of her _fëa_. But it was impossible for Ilúvatar to change the fate of Beren so that his _fëa _was bound to Arda also. I quite agree that Lúthien probably didn't see any possibility of forgetting her sorrows, or that Beren would forget his. The offer was probably given so that Lúthien would see more clearly what were the outcome if she choose to remain with her fate, therefore making it far easier for her to choose a second life in Middle-earth.

Why a second life in M-E? I like to think that it was meant as some sort of reward after all that they had been through. 
(Ah, what a hopeless romantic I am )


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## Alcuin (Jan 2, 2009)

My memory is a little rusty, but wasn’t it even more complicated than this: Beren’s fëa refused to leave Arda, is that not so? So the Valar were presented with a difficult problem: the fëar of Men were weak in comparison with those of Elves, and so should have been unable to refuse to depart Mandos, through which they passed to their ultimate destination: even that Beren _could_ refuse to depart was a matter of considerable import, and meant that Eru was involved: otherwise, the fëa of Beren would have left perforce. I think it was Beren who was waiting for Lúthien, and Lúthien then made her case to the Valar that she should be allowed to depart with him to continue to be with him rather than endure the separation that came between Men and Elves. 

As far as returning to Middle-earth to walk together again for a while, that was indeed a gift, a boon granted to them for their willingness to suffer and sacrifice themselves.


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## Arvedui (Jan 3, 2009)

The Silmarillion said:


> They bore back Beren Camlost son of Barahir upon a bier of branches with Huan the wolfhound at his side; and night fell ere they returned to Menegroth. At the feet of Hírilorn the great beech Lúthien met them walking slow, and some bore torches beside the bier. There she set her arms about Beren, and kissed him *bidding him await her beyond the Western Sea*; and he looked upon her eyes ere the spirit left him. But the starlight was quenched and darkness had fallen even upon Lúthien Tinúviel. Thus ended the Quest of the Silmaril; but the Lay of Leithian, Release form Bondage does not end.
> [FONT=&quot]*For the spirit of Beren at her bidding tarried in the halls of Mandos, unwilling to leave the world, until Lúthien came to say her last farewell* upon the dim shores of the Outer Sea, whence Men that die set out never to return.[/FONT]


Yes, Beren tarried in the halls of Mandos. But it seems that that was because of Lúthien's beckoning more than because of his own abilities.

And I just re-discovered something that I shoyld have remembered yesterday (you are not the only rusty one, Alcuin...).



The Silmarillion said:


> [FONT=&quot]These were the choices that he gave to Lúthien. Because of her labours and her sorrow, she should be released from Mandos, and go to Valimar, there to dwell until the world's end among the Valar, forgetting all griefs that her life had known. Thither Beren could not come. For it was not permitted to the Valar to withhold Death from him, which is the gift of Ilúvatar to Men. [/FONT]


I should have remembered that Death is Ilúvatar's gift to men. That would probably have given more meaning to the arguments in my former post.


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## Úlairi (Jan 7, 2009)

Arvedui said:


> Yes, Beren tarried in the halls of Mandos. But it seems that that was because of Lúthien's beckoning more than because of his own abilities.
> 
> And I just re-discovered something that I shoyld have remembered yesterday (you are not the only rusty one, Alcuin...).
> 
> ...


 
This is something that I find extremely interesting after reading _The Children of Húrin_ (which I finished yesterday and loved thoroughly - Tolkien's been dead for near 36 years and through Christopher he's still publishing!). Morgoth withheld death from Húrin; which he was obviously not permitted to do. Sauron (and I don't have my books as I'm on holiday) I believe extended the life of the Mouth of Sauron and through the power of the Nine Rings also did so to the Nazgûl and Gollum through the One Ring. It seems as though _The History of Middle-earth_ is a veritable plethora of instances where the Ainur (and the Elves? Need books!) are capable of extending the life of or even preventing the death of the Atani. Was Morgoth _inherently capable_ of prolonging the life of Men and simply did so without Ilúvatar's _permission_ or was the _Gift of Men _*intrinsically irrevocable*?

I realize I've gone off topic and perhaps this would be better addressed in another thread.

*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


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## Alcuin (Jan 7, 2009)

I don’t think you’re off topic here.

That Beren could tarry beyond his appointed time in Mandos at all must have struck Mandos as remarkable in itself, and seems never to have occurred before or since with the spirits of Men. After all, Mandos was not involved in deterring the spirits of Men from their appointed commissions: they came to Mandos, tarried a while, and left. Beren did not: he remained of his own volition, and beyond the time the Valar knew was accustomed for Men. The feat surprised them, and it got their attention.

The reason soon became apparent: Lúthien joined him of her volition. It was not within the power of Lúthien, I believe, to enjoin or abjure Beren to delay his departure from Mandos: that Morgoth or Sauron (in particular) could accomplish necromancy was a gross violation of the rules under which the Ainur were instructed to operate within Arda: Lúthien was certainly not involved in any rebellion against Eru! Consider this also: Lúthien was only the second Elf recorded to have given up her corporeal life of her own free will; the first was Míriel Þerindë, Fëanor’s mother, and while her decision to do this might have involved some taint, there is no reason to believe that was the case with Lúthien, particularly in light of the fact that it was not the Ainur who were “keeping” Beren in Arda. 

Lúthien presented her pleas to remain with Beren first to Mandos, and he was moved who was never moved before or since. It was Mandos, who had spoken against the remarriage of Finwë and later spoke against mercy for Eärendil and Elwing (as representatives of Men and the rebellious Noldor, both of whom were barred from entering Valinor), who commended Lúthien’s case to the Council of the Valar in the Máhanaxar. This also was unique. 

The Valar were led to conclude the Lúthien, whose mother was an Ainu, was supposed to do what she did; and guided in prayer to Eru, they set before her a choice of dooms, from which she chose one the Valar might have found surprising: she humbled herself, and joined herself to the Hildor, the Second People, in order to remain with Beren, and so with him left Arda forever.

As for Sauron, he could not give more life to anyone: he only prevented death (_like butter scraped over too much bread_, as Bilbo put it), so that corporeal life itself became a prison: Men could not escape: life in Arda became their private hell on earth, and only further and worse damnation awaited them. That is the very opposite of what awaited Beren and Lúthien. 

Morgoth’s imprisonment of Húrin does not appear to me to have extended his life. I have, but have not had time to read, _Children of Húrin_: if it is stated there that Morgoth extended Húrin’s life, I was unaware of it. When Húrin was later released, he appears in HoME to have aged normally, and though he remained hale in his last years, that might not have been unusual for a man like Húrin.

As far as the Gift of Men is concerned, it does appear to be intrinsically irrevocable. (Tuor would seem to be “the exception which proves the rule”.)


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## Tyelkormo (Jan 14, 2009)

Úlairi said:


> Was Morgoth _inherently capable_ of prolonging the life of Men and simply did so without Ilúvatar's _permission_ or was the _Gift of Men _*intrinsically irrevocable*?


 
I'm not sure I would use "prolonging" here. I think "extending" would fit better, especially if we look at the Nine or Gollum, or Bilbo for that matter - making longer, yes, but at the expense of other things, stretching "thinner", rather than adding on top. 

Though I always liked to think that the Mouth used some form of Necromancy to extend his life, feeding on the life of others, so to speak. Not sure if that can be substantiated, though obviously, he seems to have had little contact with the One, since it was lost. On the other hand, even he seems to have been "stretched thin", given that he forgot his own name.

We actually have several cases where the spirits of Men hold onto the world of the living even after death: Aside from those who refused to let go, we have the case of the Oathbreakers where, apparently, the passing-on part of the gift was suspended because they failed to fulfill their oath, so as a kind of punishment. Incidentally, this also shows that Oaths in Tolkien's world concept are nothing to be trifled with, which is important in assessing Feanor and his sons, but that's a different topic.


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## Confusticated (Sep 17, 2010)

Arvedui said:


> And I just re-discovered something that I shoyld have remembered yesterday (you are not the only rusty one, Alcuin...).


 

./QUOTE]

Re-discovered...:*D

hehe.... I am _so_ rusty, and I don't even mind it. :*p

Anyhow, whoever is still here thanks for your replies.


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## Mimzy (Feb 3, 2011)

What i wonder, is wtf happened to Dior's soul?


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