# Sauron an emissary? for who?



## Maeglin (Jan 1, 2004)

Return of the King, the Last Debate:


> "Other evils there are that may come; for Sauron is himself but a servant or emissary."



Who is Sauran a servant to? Surely it cannot be Morgoth any longer, for Morgoth was tossed into the abyss at the end of the first age. I thought that Sauron now served only himself, and was trying to get power for himself. Anyone have any thoughts on this?


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## Celebthôl (Jan 1, 2004)

No, he was still serving Morgoth, like in the Akalabeth, he converted the Men of Númenor to worship Morgoth...I think Sauron was just keeping the seat warm (so to say) for Morgoth's return.


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## grendel (Jan 1, 2004)

I would agree with Celebthol... Sauron was still a servant of Morgoth, or at least a servant to the evil that he had wrought. (You like that word? it seemed to fit) And, if I read the Silmarillion correctly, Morgoth wasn't "dead," he was imprisoned somewhere... and how many times had the Valar thought that would be the end of it?


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## Maeglin (Jan 1, 2004)

It's true that he was a prisoner, but its also true that he had no way out of there. It says somewhere (in the sil maybe? I dunno where, but I read it) that Morgoth will not be released from prison until the last great battle and the end of Arda.


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## Celebthôl (Jan 1, 2004)

When the kings across the sea in the utter west are no longer on their thrones or something like that....and then Morgoth will return for the last battle in which the might of Númenor that went down with Ar-Pharazon will be released and they will fight against Morgoth etc...and then Arda will be unmade then remade by Aulë and the Dwarves into how it was supposed to be and then all the peoples will live there forever happily...something like that...


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## Gothmog (Jan 1, 2004)

It was Melkor who started the discord in the music and from this the evils of the world came to be. All the creatures of the darkness were corrupted by Melkor. First of all himself and then Ainur that were drawn to him in his greatness. Later he corrupted other Ainur with gifts and promises followed by corruption of lesser creatures by fear and torment. All of these were form the time of their corruption doing the bidding of Melkor.

So even when Sauron was "Working for himself" still was he doing the Bidding of Melkor. So the Evil was not destroyed with Sauron but there was other, even though lesser, evils that still were in the world.


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## BlackCaptain (Jan 1, 2004)

Or working in the NAME of Melkor...

I'm assuming that it was Gandalf talking in that quote provided, and since we all know there is no-one in between Melkor and Sauron (military ranking-wise) it could only logicaly be Melkor


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## Saermegil (Jan 1, 2004)

I think that Saruman says somewhere that he is Melko reborn.

I don;t have a quote or any evidence though. I'm not even sure its true.


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## Maeglin (Jan 1, 2004)

I don't think that Saruman ever said that, he certainly never said it in LotR at least. And even if he did, he was lying because 1) that's what he does, and 2) Sauron was his master (though he didn't realize it the whole time), and Sauron would certainly never master Melkor, the Vala that taught him everything he knew


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## jallan (Jan 1, 2004)

Melkor is, of course, Satan.

When Christopher Tolkien edited _The Silmarillion_ for publication he removed the prophecy of Mandos from the end of his father’s latest version of the conclusion to _The Silmarillion_ based on a few strong indications that his father no longer considered this a valid part of his legendarium.

But in doing so Christopher Tolkien removed material immediately before it that probably should have been left untouched. The passage occurs in _The Lost Road_ (HoME 5), “Quenta Silmarillion”, _Conclusion_ §30. I present it with red coloring for the emendations by J.R.R. Tolkien given in _The War of the Jewels_ (HoME 11), “The Later _Quenta Silmarillion_” _The Last Chapters_ and with green color for what was omitted by Christopher Tolkien:


> Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot by the Gods be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days. Some say also that Morgoth himself has at times crept back, secretly as a cloud that cannot be seen, and yet is venomous, surmounting the Walls, and visiting the world to encourage his servants and set on foot evil when all seems fair. But others say this is the black shadow of Sauron, whom the Gnomes named Gorthû, who served Morgoth long ago and came with him into the world, and was the greatest and most evil of his underlings; and Sauron fled from the Great Battle and escaped, and he dwelt in dark places and perverted Men to his dreadful allegiance and his foul worship.


Christopher Tolkien perhaps removed this last section as not fitting the later detailed history of Sauron. But the description of Sauron here comes close to calling him Morgoth’s emissary.

I recall no place in which it is suggested by Sauron or anyone that Sauron is actually Morgoth reborn. That would be a great change indeed in Tolkiens legendarium.


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## Saermegil (Jan 2, 2004)

I didn't say that I know for sure that Sauron stated that he was Melko reborn, the idea that i had heard it before popped into my head. It is probably wrong. Perhaps it was another members mistaken statement in the forum, and I just took it for granted in my subconcious. Anyways.........


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## Flammifer (Jan 2, 2004)

That's really interesting, jallan! Have you recently read HoME? I didn't know you had......I would really love to........but as yet I haven't been able to find the books at my library.......

I think that BC has basically summed it up for us. Melkor is Number One when it comes to evil. Sauron is second in command. That is an order which is set in stone. No, it's set in mithril. No, it's set in whatever-the-hell-Anglachel-is-made-of-I-can't-remember. No, it's set in stone set in mithril set in whatever-the-hell-Anglachel-is-made-of-I-can't-remember set in whatever-the-hell-the-Silmarils-are-made-of-no-one-knows. Therefore Sauron serves none but Melkor in his evil.

Therefore it must be Melkor that Gandalf is referring to, as Sauron serves no other.


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## Inderjit S (Jan 2, 2004)

> "Sauron had not served Morgoth, even in his last stages, without becoming infected by his lust for destruction, and his hatred of God (which must end in nihilism). Sauron could not, of course, be a 'sincere' atheist. Though one of the minor spirits created before the world, he knew Eru, according to his measure. He probably deluded himself with the notion that the Valar (including Melkor) having failed, Eru had simply abandoned Eä, or at any rate Arda, and would not concern himself with it any more. It would appear that he interpreted the 'change of the world' at the Downfall of Númenor, when Aman was removed from the physical world, in this sense: Valar (and Elves) were removed from effective control, and Men under God's curse and wrath. If he thought about the Istari, especially Saruman and Gandalf, he imagined them as emissaries from the Valar, seeking to establish their lost power again and 'colonize' Middle-earth, as a mere effort of defeated imperialists (without knowledge or sanction of Eru). His cynicism, which (sincerely) regarded the motives of Manwë as precisely the same as his own, seemed fully justified in Saruman. Gandalf he did not understand. But certainly he had already become evil, and therefore stupid, enough to imagine that his different behaviour was due simply to weaker intelligence and lack of firm masterful purpose. He was only a rather cleverer Radagast - cleverer, because it is more profitable (more productive of power) to become absorbed in the study of people than of animals."


*'Myths Transformed' HoME 10*



> 'When he found how greatly his knowledge was admired by all other rational creatures and how easy it was to influence them, his pride became boundless. By the end of the Second Age he assumed the position of Morgoth's representative. By the end of the Third Age (though actually much weaker than before) he claimed to be Morgoth returned'


*'Letter 183; Letters of Tolkien'*


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## Saermegil (Jan 2, 2004)

_he claimed to be Morgoth returned' 'Letter 183; Letters of Tolkien'_

Yay! i was right. Well, partially right.

 i cant quote people wiht this new skin of TTF


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## Lantarion (Jan 2, 2004)

Great work with the quote-providing again Inder! What a veritable well of knowledge and expertise you are! 


Saermegil said:


> i cant quote people wiht this new skin of TTF


Saer, just write


name of member being quoted said:


> , then add text, then close the quote with [/QUOTE} (with proper square brackets though ).


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## Inderjit S (Jan 2, 2004)

Thank you for the praise Lantarion. (And putting my quotes in the 'quotes' boxes.)


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## BlackCaptain (Jan 2, 2004)

Flammifer said:


> That is an order which is set in stone. No, it's set in mithril. No, it's set in whatever-the-hell-Anglachel-is-made-of-I-can't-remember. No, it's set in stone set in mithril set in whatever-the-hell-Anglachel-is-made-of-I-can't-remember set in whatever-the-hell-the-Silmarils-are-made-of-no-one-knows. Therefore Sauron serves none but Melkor in his evil.


Hahahaha no... it's set in whatever-the-hell-arda-is-made-of-only-Aulë-knows


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