# Glorfindel, a wraith?!



## Maeglin (Mar 9, 2004)

Originally posted by Eledhwen in the thread "Wraithizing"


> I think the phrase 'neither living nor dead' would describe wraith-hood to me. A wraith. The OED says it is the ghost or ghostly image of someone, especially when seen shortly before or after their death. Plainly Tolkien means something more by the word. An other-worldliness is suggested. Frodo at Weathertop saw the Ringwraiths as they really were when he put the Ring on. In other words, they were not incorporeal but of a substance that can only be seen in the 'other world' (confirmed by Merry's knife unknitting the sinews of the Ringwraith at Pelennor, and Eowyn slaying him with a sword). Frodo's heightened perception of the 'other side' also affected the way he saw Glorfindel at the Fords - which was also how the Nazgul saw him and were dismayed.



I didn't feel like searching for the quotes in the book about Glorfindel, so I used what she said instead. Anyway, I thought that this brought up a question about Glorfindel's being. If the Black Riders have a different form in the other world, and so does Glorfindel, but no one else Frodo saw at the ford did, does that make Glorfindel some sort of a wraith as well? I think that it is very possible, because Glorfindel has already died once, and now he's back (I know I know that could all be argued and is all the time, but I'm saying what I think), so he's certainly not dead, but is he really wholly alive either? And also, if he is a wraith, could he be killed by just any random person or weapon, or would it have to be some sort of super-evil weapon, just as the sword that Merry used to pierce the Nazgul was made with a purpose for doing good by the Men of Westernesse?


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## Eriol (Mar 9, 2004)

Gandalf explains to Frodo (at Rivendell) that Glorfindel was shining because "those who lived in the Blessed Realm have great power in both the seen and the unseen worlds" (or something like that). So this is not a particular trait of Glorfindel, that was acquired after his first death. It may be presumed that Gandalf, Galadriel (and perhaps Gildor, if he was born in Valinor) would have a similar shining appearance to Frodo's eyes in that situation.

I like to think that Gildor was born in Valinor. It would make the Nazgûl's retreat when Frodo meets Gildor's group even more reasonable. I don't know whether there is enough evidence one way or the other, though.


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## Confusticated (Mar 9, 2004)

Well Glorfindel was not the only of the elves who could be seen in the wraith world. Gandalf says this applies to all who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm. The conclusion is that Glorfindel's being sent back to life is not the reason for his being visible on the other side. Glorfindel was more powerful than other elves, and was a great warrior so would probably be especially difficult to kill, but I see no reason it couldn't be done or would take some special weapon. 

Why the elves of Valinor, even those who had never died, should be able to dwell in both worlds at once is something I haven't found a good answer for. If anything I would have tended to think it was the opposite... that those elves who were fading slowly in Middle-earth versus being preserved in the Blessed Realm would be more in touch with the other side. 

Edit: Like Eriol, I believe Gildor was probably born in Aman... probably Tirion ... but at the least the majority of his group almost had to have been... they are 'exiles' and sing of remembering Elentari. I even suggested in a debate that these elves being visible on the other side could be a reason they did not go along with Frodo... easily spotted by wraiths.

As for Galadriel I think she too would have shone like Glorfindel.

As for Gandalf, I suspect Gandalf the Grey may have somehow been cloaked and not have shone so brightly. One reason for this may be a wishingful thinking on my part that the shining is why Gildor did not join Frodo, and why Glorfindel was not in the fellowship... obviously if they were left out because they are visible to wraiths, this would apply to Gandalf too... so I like to think as the Grey he did not show so brightly. But as the White I suspect he was a Maia not even bound to his form as he was while Grey, and may have shone even brighter than Glorfindel.


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## Eledhwen (Mar 10, 2004)

Excellent stuff Nóm! The nine needed secrecy, so Legolas for the Elves, not the great slayer of Balrogs, Glorfindel (handy in Moria, perhaps). As Gandalf said: "I have written _Gandalf is here_ in signs that all can read from Rivendell to the mouths of Anduin." And that was just the light from his staff.


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## SmokeMonkey (Mar 13, 2004)

> As for Gandalf, I suspect Gandalf the Grey may have somehow been cloaked and not have shone so brightly


 Just a side note, would have Bilbo at least mentioned if he had seen Gandalf like this? I mean he wore the ring the most around Gandalf and I would assume he'd see the same type of things that Frodo saw when he put the ring on. Yet i don't remember any mention of this. I don't know just thought that was interesting.


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## Confusticated (Mar 13, 2004)

Yes, I think it is something that should have been mentioned if Bilbo saw any such thing while wearing the Ring. This might have gotten by in _The Hobbit_ since the idea of the Ring changed, but Bilbo also wore it in front of Gandalf in LotR and there was no mention. 

Unfortunately he didn't have any of the High Elves around when he wore it in _The Hobbit_. But even if he had, there's a few ways it might have gone if he did wear it and there was no mention of them being especially visible: 1) it could have been an inconsistency with LoTR 2) the bit about all elves of Aman existing in both worlds would not have been written, and it would have been more specific to Glorfindel's special situation 3) an explaination for why Bilbo either did not see this or did not mention it may have been provided... for example, if the Ring did not have as much pull over him at the time, and so his vision was different than Frodo's... seeing less in the wraith world.


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## Eledhwen (Mar 13, 2004)

Also, Sauron had yet to discover that the Ring had been found. Once he was aware of it, and his power was bent towards retrieving it, maybe the Ring too was stronger - sort of like a homing beacon activated.


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## Eriol (Mar 13, 2004)

Quotes from Gandalf at the chapter "Many Meetings":



> You were in greatest peril whilw you wore the Ring, for then you were half in the wraith-world yourself, and they might have seized you. You could see them, and they could see you.



This seems to indicate that the Ring brings that "special visibility" to Frodo. However, there is also this quote:



> This is what happened, as far as I can gather. The Riders made straight for you, as soon as you fled. They did not need the guidance of their horses any longer: you had become visible to them, being already on the threshold of their world.



So the Morgul-wound also plays an important role.

While I think that any Ringbearer might see the Ringwraiths -- this is apparently what should be an obvious side effect of the Ruling Ring -- I don't think that the Ringbearer would automatically see a shining Glorfindel, or Gandalf. I think that this was an effect of the Morgul-wound. We must remember that when Frodo sees the shining Glorfindel, he is NOT wearing the Ring. 

Therefore I don't think Bilbo would see any unusual shine on the Elves of Rivendell (if he used the Ring while resting there on the way back) or on Gandalf.


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## Confusticated (Mar 13, 2004)

I disagree the Ring alone would not have allowed Frodo to see Glorfindel.

I think Frodo was able to see Glorfindel because he could see the wraith world. Regardless of the cause of his seeing into that world.

I think a ring-wearer becomes invisible because of his partial removal to the other side, and that the nazgul see Frodo well while he wears the Ring because of that. 

I do not think seeing nazgul in specific is a quality of the Ring but rather seeing the wraith world in general is. Even as Gandalf says... the wearer is in the wraith world. If one is present why only see servants of evil? The servants of evil could see Glorfindel.

That wearing the Ring hinders ones vision of the living world supports this in my mind. He can not see the living world so well because he is half seeing the world of the dead... the world of spirits... and Glorfindel's shines.


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## Eriol (Mar 13, 2004)

Nóm said:


> I do not think seeing nazgul in specific is a quality of the Ring but rather seeing the wraith world in general is. Even as Gandalf says... the wearer is in the wraith world. If one is present why only see servants of evil? The servants of evil could see Glorfindel.



Glorfindel _was_ in both worlds, fully; while the Ring bearer, according to Gandalf, was "half in the wraith world". I think this is the reason why the Nazgûl could see Glorfindel. 

We also know that when Frodo saw the shining Glorfindel, he was not wearing the Ring, so the only thing influencing him was the Morgul-wound. 

Perhaps one needs to be 51% into the wraith world to see Glorfindel shine ?

I agree with you that Frodo could see Glorfindel because he could see into the wraith world at that moment. However, I think that what the Morgul-wound was doing to him is more powerful than the "regular Ring use" as regards "going into the wraith world". His vision is also more blurred in that occasion compared to other occasions of Ring use.

All of this is an alternate way to explain why Bilbo didn't see any shining people while wearing the Ring. 



> I think a ring-wearer becomes invisible because of his partial removal to the other side, and that the nazgul see Frodo well while he wears the Ring because of that.



This was discussed by many people around here... Would Galadriel disappear if she wore the Ring? Sauron apparently didn't, in Númenor. I think the invisibility effect of the Ring is a complicated matter.


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## Paul (Mar 13, 2004)

i HAVE THIS IDEA THAT, SINCE HE HAD A WOUND FROM A EVIL BEING, THEN THE PRESANCE OF GLORFINDEL WAS PROBALY CAUSING HIM TO FIGHT BETWEEN THE WORLD OF SHADOW AND THE WORLD OF LIGHT, WHICH IS WAHY HE COULD SEE GLORFINDEL IN THAT WAY.


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## SmokeMonkey (Mar 14, 2004)

> This was discussed by many people around here... Would Galadriel disappear if she wore the Ring? Sauron apparently didn't, in Númenor. I think the invisibility effect of the Ring is a complicated matter.


 Little off topic: where can i find this thread, also I remember a while back someone had as their sig a link to like the top 10 threads similar to this any idea where that is?


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## Maeglin (Mar 14, 2004)

I'm not sure where to find it, but I suggest searching the Links thread.


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## Ithrynluin (Mar 14, 2004)

Eriol said:


> It may be presumed that Gandalf, Galadriel (and perhaps Gildor, if he was born in Valinor) would have a similar shining appearance to Frodo's eyes in that situation.





> As for Gandalf, I suspect Gandalf the Grey may have somehow been cloaked and not have shone so brightly. One reason for this may be a wishingful thinking on my part that the shining is why Gildor did not join Frodo, and why Glorfindel was not in the fellowship... obviously if they were left out because they are visible to wraiths, this would apply to Gandalf too... so I like to think as the Grey he did not show so brightly. But as the White I suspect he was a Maia not even bound to his form as he was while Grey, and may have shone even brighter than Glorfindel.


I think both Gandalfs were 'cloaked' and didn't radiate any light. I think this was part of the whole Istari being commanded to 'wear' bodies of old men and be susceptible to the everyday pains (and joys) of having a physical body, and being forced to be humble and not assuming lordly attitudes towards Elves and Men. However, I do think Gandalf was able to unveil himself and shine brightly in that moment, the Grey as much as Glorfindel, and the White perhaps even more. In fact, perhaps the Istari had all the characteristics needed to see in both worlds, but were just not surrounded by radiance.



Nóm said:


> As for Galadriel I think she too would have shone like Glorfindel.


For some reason I always had a notion of Galadriel's 'shining' being somewhat dimmed through spending countless millennia in Middle-Earth, whereas Glorfindel's shining would have been brighter since he was somewhat more 'fresh' out of the Blessed Realm.  I have no quotes to back this up though. And if this were true, it would be interesting to know whether the shining is completely extinguished through an enormous length of time, or only slowly abating through the course of time, and settling at a certain 'level'.


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## Greenwood (Mar 14, 2004)

Well, as Eriol has pointed out when Frodo saw Glorfindel shining at the Fords Frodo was not wearing the Ring so seeing into the other world had to at that point be because of Frodo's wound. However, as to why Frodo saw Glorfindel shining then but there is no mention of Bilbo or Frodo ever seeing anyone else shining when they wore the Ring why not a simple explanation that Glorfindel was putting forth his power in the other world to drive the Nazgul into the flood? After all, Frodo had been traveling with Glorfindel for sometime at that point and evidently did not see him shining. Indeed he had just left Glorfindel when Glorfindel commanded Asfaloth to carry Frodo away and across the ford and Frodo had not seen Glorfindel shining then. It would seem likely that Glorfindel was now putting forth his full power against the Nazgul, he had "turned on" his shine in the Other World if you will.


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## Confusticated (Mar 14, 2004)

ithrynluin said:


> I think both Gandalfs were 'cloaked' and didn't radiate any light. I think this was part of the whole Istari being commanded to 'wear' bodies of old men and be susceptible to the everyday pains (and joys) of having a physical body, and being forced to be humble and not assuming lordly attitudes towards Elves and Men.


Well he was sent back by Eru... no telling what restrictions were placed on him... but I think he was wise enough to do what was right without any. There are various statements in the book which cause me to think the White was not bounded to old man form... but rather chose to array himself in that way since that is how he was known in Middle-earth. He was sent back 'naked', Gandalf was light as a feather according to Gwaihir and the eagle supposed Gandalf didn't truly need to be carried, and Gimli, Legolas and Aragorn had no weapon that could kill him. I'll have to think hard to remember other things that support this.


> In fact, perhaps the Istari had all the characteristics needed to see in both worlds, but were just not surrounded by radiance.


If an Ainu spirit can not dwell in both worlds at once... I don't know who can!



> For some reason I always had a notion of Galadriel's 'shining' being somewhat dimmed through spending countless millennia in Middle-Earth, whereas Glorfindel's shining would have been brighter since he was somewhat more 'fresh' out of the Blessed Realm.  I have no quotes to back this up though. And if this were true, it would be interesting to know whether the shining is completely extinguished through an enormous length of time, or only slowly abating through the course of time, and settling at a certain 'level'.



I don't know... I think Galadriel had a powerful (and good - white light) spirit that would have shone. But again... why elves of Aman dwell in both worlds at once and others should not escapes me. If you have an answer to that, you could apply it to her. Bear in mind she was a weilder of a Ring whose function was preservation.

Edit: What Greenwood says sound good to me. Though maybe one still had to be at least 51% in the wraith world.  but bear in mind there was a shimmer about Gildor's company, presumably visible to all.


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## Ithrynluin (Mar 14, 2004)

> If an Ainu spirit can not dwell in both worlds at once... I don't know who can!


Yes, but the Istari were a special case, which is why I was wondering. They were _forbidden _to use their full powers. Whether that included the 'power' (is it a power?) to perceive both worlds I am unaware of.



> But again... why elves of Aman dwell in both worlds at once and others should not escapes me.


I guess those born in Aman during the time of the Two Trees 'gain' a special property to their character...I am just assuming the Two Trees were the source of this lingering light, though that would mean those born after their demise wouldn't have shone...



> but I think he was wise enough to do what was right without any.


But why impose _any _kind of restrictions on Gandalf to begin with, if he was considered the wisest of the Maiar? I think he would have greater power as the white, yet still not his 'true unclad self'.



> Gandalf was light as a feather according to Gwaihir


I never took this too seriously, or rather - too literally.



> He was sent back 'naked'


I took that to mean exactly what it says, since it is said that he is given white clothing in Lórien.


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## Confusticated (Mar 14, 2004)

ithrynluin said:


> > Gandalf was light as a feather according to Gwaihir
> 
> 
> 
> I never took this too seriously, or rather - too literally.






> Light as a swan's feather in my claw you are. The Sun shines through you. Indeed I do not think you need me any more: were I to let you fall you would float upon the wind.'


None of that literally?


"Indeed my friends, none of you have any weapon that could hurt me." - What of that?


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## Ithrynluin (Mar 14, 2004)

How heavy would _any_ creature _be _for a giant eagle, really? Heavy as a feather maybe?  

As for that second quote, was there any weapon that could hurt him prior to his transformation?  
This might just as well be chalked up to him being granted greater power, yet not his full native strength. I don't think those quotes provide any definitive answer.


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## Confusticated (Mar 14, 2004)

ithrynluin said:


> How heavy would _any_ creature _be _for a giant eagle, really? Heavy as a feather maybe?


"...need me *any more*..."
As compared to prior bearings?



ithryn said:


> As for that second quote, was there any weapon that could hurt him prior to his transformation?


Wargs? fire? Why shouldn't any sword in the hand of a great warrior have not been able to kill Gandalf the Grey... the Istari were bound to the form of old men. Grima stabbed Saruman to death.


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## Eledhwen (Mar 15, 2004)

Glorfindel eats Ready Brek. That's why he shines. 

The Istari, I believe, _chose_ to appear as old men. I think it probably made life less complicated - no lassies batting their eyelids at them, secrecy, and lack of unnecessary rivalry would be the benefits. Gandalf's vulnerabilities and post-balrog nakedness are mentioned in a letter. From what I remember, he could be slain, and his hroa was naked, not his fea. It seems that he was transformed, somewhat; because Gwaihir could bear him wherever he wished to go, whereas previously he could not.

I haven't time to look up the letter at the moment - ... - anyone?


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## Confusticated (Mar 15, 2004)

Thanks Eledhwen. Letter 156 does confirm the meaning:



> 'Naked I was sent back - for a brief time, until my task is done'. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time'. Naked is alas! unclear. It was meant just literally, 'unclothed like a child' (not discarnate)...


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