# Orcs at Cirith Ungol



## LordOfMoria (Dec 20, 2003)

I might have passed over it, but what were the reasons that the orcs in cirtih ungol at war with each other?


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## Tar-Elenion (Dec 20, 2003)

Gorbag attempted to take Frodo's mithril shirt.


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## LordOfMoria (Dec 20, 2003)

Well i got that! So that started the whole war between tem. I mean there had to be tension btween them b4 that though


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## Flammifer (Dec 20, 2003)

The tension that existed between Shagrat's and Gorbag's divisions was just another example of the stupidness of Orcs. They are just aggressive by nature and will incite violence because of the smallest things...this is evident many times in LotR such as in Mordor. When Frodo and Sam reach the gate as part of that Orc-line, there are other companies also trying to get through the gate. This simple thing creates tension, and blades are drawn.

This also happens when Legolas comments to Aragorn and Gimli about how the Uruk-hai and other Orcs just cut down living things that aren't even in their way.

So yes, LoM (may I call you Durin or Balin?), the tension that existed it just an inherent quality of Orcs.


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## LordOfMoria (Dec 20, 2003)

Balin it shall be. Heh. ALright i was just trying to look deeper than that. Maybe tension was growing deeper from the losses they recently taken and put blame on each other!


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## Flammifer (Dec 21, 2003)

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "the losses they had recently taken", Balin.......

But maybe another reason could be that both companies were afraid that there were spies for "Higher Up" in the companies...or maybe Gorbag kept giving Shagrat a hard time about the "Elvish Warrior"..........


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## Úlairi (Dec 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Flammifer _
> *The tension that existed between Shagrat's and Gorbag's divisions was just another example of the stupidness of Orcs. They are just aggressive by nature and will incite violence because of the smallest things...this is evident many times in LotR such as in Mordor. When Frodo and Sam reach the gate as part of that Orc-line, there are other companies also trying to get through the gate. This simple thing creates tension, and blades are drawn.
> 
> This also happens when Legolas comments to Aragorn and Gimli about how the Uruk-hai and other Orcs just cut down living things that aren't even in their way.
> ...



Yes, but their stupid*ity* () is really no fault of their own. I almost feel sorry for Orcs!  They're denied what should be rightfully theirs, Free Will. Ever heard of a good Orc?



> _The Letters of JRRT: Letter #153 to Peter Hastings (draft)_
> *"But if they 'fell', as the Diabolus Morgoth did, and started making things 'for himself, to be their Lord', these would then 'be', even if Morgoth broke the supreme ban against making other 'rational' creatures like Elves or Men. They would at least 'be' real physical realities in the physical world, however evil they might prove, even 'mocking' the Children of God. They would be Morgoth's greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad."*



Poor Orcses!  Ah well, they still look cool when they die in the movies, eh? That's all that matters!


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## Greenwood (Dec 22, 2003)

Balin,

Ill will and rivalry between the orcs of Cirith Ungol and Minas Morgol clearly goes back aways, but the immediate cause of the fight between the two groups was the fight between the two orc captains, Gorbag and Shagrat, over Frodo's mithril shirt. Look at the following passage from the chapter "The Tower of Cirith Ungol" in ROTK, in which Snaga is talking to Shagrat:



> 'I'm not going down those stairs again,' growled Snaga, 'be you captain or no. Nar! Keep your hands off your knife, or I'll put an arrow in your guts. You won't be captain long when They hear about all these goings on. * I've fought for the Tower against those stinking Morgul-rats, but a nice mess you two precious captains have made of things, fighting over the swag.'*
> 
> [bold added]



Snaga is clearly implying fighting against the orcs of Minas Morgul prior to this latest mayhem.

In the next chapter, "The Land of Shadow" there is the encounter Sam and Frodo witness between a tracker orc and a soldier orc which ends with the tracker orc putting an arrow in the soldier orc's eye. Rivalry and ill will seem to be the rule, rather than the exception between the various groups of orcs in the service of Mordor.


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## Flammifer (Dec 23, 2003)

Those are excellent examples, Greenwood!



> Yes, but their stupidity () is really no fault of their own.



Hahahahahahahahah OMG I'm so embarassed! It's very ironic, isn't it? Oh dear. Sorry about that.......it must've been fatigue-induced.......actually "stop taking advantage of my stupid*ness*" is one of my favourite quotes! And now I've done it myself! Whoops!


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