# Feanor leaving the Noldors behind.



## Copia (Jul 18, 2022)

So a thing that I never have been able to wrap my head around. When Feanor and the Noldors chased Morgoth to Beleriand, and after they sluaghtered the Teleri's and took their ships.
Feanor ordered his men to burn every ship so Fingolfin and the rest of the Noldors couldnt use them.
I just dont understand why? Yes there was bad blood between Feanor and Fingolfin, but Fingolfin still followed him.
Also Feanor tried to recruit the Teleri to his army to make it more powerfull.

Was Feanor just THAT spitefull? Did he just want to be cruel against Fingolfin? We know he just got filled with more and more pride, and was more and more full of himself the more he got closer to his goal.

I dont think it's ever stated, so whats your thoughts on this?


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## d4rk3lf (Jul 18, 2022)

He thought (wrongly), that sooner or later, Fingolfin, and all his followers will betray him, and go back to Valinor, anyway. 
With this action, he wanted to be the first to brake the alliance, before they brake it. 
He was totally wrong, of course. 

I've read somewhere that in some later Tolkien revisions, one of the Feanor sons stayed on ship, and by mistake, he was burned alive with the ships. 
That's also crazy.


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## Copia (Jul 18, 2022)

Ahh I see. Well thats a very good explanation. I've completely missed that. I cant believe how deluded Feanor was at this stage.


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## Alcuin (Jul 19, 2022)

I thought Fëanor burned the ships of the Teleri so that none of the Noldor who had (mis)used them could desert the quest and return to Aman. I think it is rather implied that one of his twin sons had this very idea in mind when he spent the night aboard one of the ships and was unintentionally roasted by his father, who in his fey mood denied any regret. 

In 1519, a mere 503 years ago this very month, Cortés burned his ships so that none of his men could desert and avoid making war upon the Aztecs. Like Fëanor, Cortés faced serious consequences if he returned whence he came, to Cuba. Unlike Fëanor, he managed to overcome his more numerous and powerful opponents.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Jul 19, 2022)

Alcuin said:


> I thought Fëanor burned the ships of the Teleri so that none of the Noldor who had (mis)used them could desert the quest and return to Aman. I think it is rather implied that one of his twin sons had this very idea in mind when he spent the night aboard one of the ships and was unintentionally roasted by his father, who in his fey mood denied any regret.
> 
> In 1519, a mere 503 years ago this very month, Cortés burned his ships so that none of his men could desert and avoid making war upon the Aztecs. Like Fëanor, Cortés faced serious consequences if he returned whence he came, to Cuba. Unlike Fëanor, he managed to overcome his more numerous and powerful opponents.


Thus, it's for military tactical purpose, in order to force all the personnel's morale into max boost, like Xiang Yu's act of smashing all his amphibious transport used for retreat in the battle of Julu, right?
But JRRT seemed...give no "direct" description to mention this, or it's not necassary at all to describe purpose of such desperate attempt, after all, Feanor even dared declare wwars against Valar for the Similaris.


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## Copia (Jul 20, 2022)

The reason that he was afraid of treason really went over my head, so thanks guys.
I only just assumed he didnt want anyone to go and get Fingolfin and his army.
Stupid move either way, Feanor.


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## d4rk3lf (Jul 20, 2022)

Copia said:


> The reason that he was afraid of treason really went over my head, so thanks guys.


Well, if you think of it, it's pretty common that these type of guys (narcissistic, selfish.. etc) have a tendency to have paranoia. 
And when you have paranoia, all kind of crazy possibilities are in their paranoic heads, and they analyze these possibilities until they start believing it. 

Maybe Feanor trigger was kinslaying and the fact that Fingolfin people didn't support massacre of their kin (after they found out that Teleri didn't started it)


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## Copia (Jul 20, 2022)

Yes it fits Feanor's paranoia and character really well. At least at that stage. He such an amazing written character, but damn I hate him for so many tings, haha.


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## Gothmog (Jul 20, 2022)

Alcuin said:


> I thought Fëanor burned the ships of the Teleri so that none of the Noldor who had (mis)used them could desert the quest and return to Aman. I think it is rather implied that one of his twin sons had this very idea in mind when he spent the night aboard one of the ships and was unintentionally roasted by his father, who in his fey mood denied any regret.
> 
> In 1519, a mere 503 years ago this very month, Cortés burned his ships so that none of his men could desert and avoid making war upon the Aztecs. Like Fëanor, Cortés faced serious consequences if he returned whence he came, to Cuba. Unlike Fëanor, he managed to overcome his more numerous and powerful opponents.


That would have been the simple clear answer if all the Noldor were already in Middle-earth. This was not the case and his son asked about using the ships to ferry the rest over. The issue is that Feanor was afraid of "treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason" plus his arrogance and therefore instead of increasing his force then destroying the ships to prevent desertion, he committed "treason of kin unto kin" first.


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## Copia (Jul 20, 2022)

Yes I belive that it was Mhaedros who was the only one who didnt want to burn the ships.


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## Elthir (Jul 20, 2022)

*Quenta Silmarillion Tradition*

The fear of treachery (spoken in the Prophecy of the North and the Doom of the Noldor) manifested when the company arrived in the North and the debate began -- for now many repented the road, and cursed Feanor, and none were willing to abide while others were ferried first (as the ships were too few for all) -- *"and already the fear of treachery was awake among the Noldor"* -- thus Feanor, having met with his sons, decides to take the ships and sail off with *"all whom he deemed true to him"*

Later Maedros asks what ships and rowers he will send back to Fingolfin. But Feanor laughed: *"None and none! What I have left behind I count now no loss; needless baggage on the road it has proved. Let those that cursed my name, curse me still, and whine their way back to the cages of the Valar! Let the Ships burn!"*

Then Maedros alone stood aside (_Maedhros_ in the constructed Silmarillion). Then we have the much later tale that no one calls . . . .

*The Death of Ambarussa Amarthan*

In this iteration, Feanor, Curufin and a few of the Noldor (most close to Feanor) burn the ships, and many of the Noldor did not know this was going to happen until it was too late.

And here Feanor says: *"Now at least I am certain that no faint-heart or traitor among you will be able to take back even one ship to the succour of Fingolfin and his folk." *In addition *"it was thought (and no doubt Feanor guessed this also)"* that Feanor's youngest son Ambarussa was going to sail his ship back and rejoin Nerdanel.

*Curious Sidenote*

In a late text (see The War of the Jewels, _Maeglin_), Tolkien refers three times to the five sons of Feanor! Christopher Tolkien wonders if this was a slip (despite being thrice mentioned), or that possibly his father had come to believe that both "Ambarussa brothers" (JRRT named two brothers Ambarussa, which is a tale almost unto itself) were burned at Losgar.

I rather hope this was a slip (the three examples are sort of "clustered" in a section of text); but in any case, I do adopt the death of the younger Ambarussa into the Legendarium.


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## Alcuin (Jul 20, 2022)

Gothmog said:


> The issue is that Feanor was afraid of "treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason" plus his arrogance and therefore instead of increasing his force then destroying the ships to prevent desertion, he committed "treason of kin unto kin" first.





Elthir said:


> The fear of treachery (spoken in the Prophecy of the North...) manifested when the company arrived in the North ... *"already the fear of treachery was awake among the Noldor"* ... Feanor says: *"Now at least I am certain that no faint-heart or traitor among you will be able to take back even one ship ... [I]t was thought (and ... Feanor guessed...)"* that Feanor's youngest son Ambarussa was going to sail his ship back and rejoin Nerdanel.


“The treacherous are ever distrustful.”

How many times did Fëanor personally betray other Elves? The Kinslaying at Alqualondë, burning the Ships at Losgar, accidentally immolating one of his own sons – what else?


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## Gothmog (Jul 20, 2022)

Alcuin said:


> “The treacherous are ever distrustful.”
> 
> How many times did Fëanor personally betray other Elves? The Kinslaying at Alqualondë, burning the Ships at Losgar, accidentally immolating one of his own sons – what else?


I agree, but you were only addressing one aspect of the burning. I expanded it to include his distrust of the rest of the Noldor.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Jul 20, 2022)

Copia said:


> So a thing that I never have been able to wrap my head around. When Feanor and the Noldors chased Morgoth to Beleriand, and after they sluaghtered the Teleri's and took their ships.
> Feanor ordered his men to burn every ship so Fingolfin and the rest of the Noldors couldnt use them.
> I just dont understand why? Yes there was bad blood between Feanor and Fingolfin, but Fingolfin still followed him.
> Also Feanor tried to recruit the Teleri to his army to make it more powerfull.
> ...


I am guessing that Feanor thought that Fingolfin and the others among the Noldor would betray him and return to Valinor, or he feared that they would try to take the Silmarils and would have rather them just stayed among the Telerin shores.

Yes, Feanor was CERTAINLY spiteful. Remember, most of the Noldor picked Fingolfin over Feanor, and my guess is with the passion and fire that Feanor harnessed within him, that made him incredibly angry and grudging towards Fingolfin.


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## Copia (Jul 21, 2022)

Yes I agree with that. Stupid Feanor, a LITTLE more calm and a little less kinslaying they could maybe have won over Morgoth sooner..


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## Gothmog (Jul 21, 2022)

Copia said:


> Yes I agree with that. Stupid Feanor, a LITTLE more calm and a little less kinslaying they could maybe have won over Morgoth sooner..


No matter how calm Feanor was there was no chance of winning without the Valar's help


> The Silmarillion: Of the Flight of the Noldor:
> Vala he is, thou saist. Then thou hast sworn in vain, for none of the Valar canst thou overcome now or ever within the halls of Eä, not though Eru whom thou namest had made thee thrice greater than thou art.


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## d4rk3lf (Jul 24, 2022)

Gothmog said:


> No matter how calm Feanor was there was no chance of winning without the Valar's help


Well, there is a possibility that they could defeat Morgoth if following things happened: 
- No oath is given 
- No kinslaying is made 
- Feanor agrees to give silmarils to Yavana to revive the two trees 
- Feanor not rushing all the time

Even in the history we know, they got very close. 
How many years Angand was under the heavy siege?


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Jul 25, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> Well, there is a possibility that they could defeat Morgoth if following things happened:
> - No oath is given
> - No kinslaying is made
> - Feanor agrees to give silmarils to Yavana to revive the two trees
> - Feanor not rushing all the time


I wonder how drastically the story would have changed if it had gone as you just highlighted here. My suspicion is that nothing would be the same, really. Maybe we would still have the Two Trees of Valinor, rather than Anar and Isil!


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## Gothmog (Jul 25, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> Well, there is a possibility that they could defeat Morgoth if following things happened:
> - No oath is given
> - No kinslaying is made
> - Feanor agrees to give silmarils to Yavana to revive the two trees
> ...


There is no possibility of the Noldor defeating Morgoth "without the Valar's help". If there was no oath, no Kinslaying, Feanor agreeing to Yavana having the Silmarili, Feanor not rushing away to Middle-earth. It is only with the Help of the Valar that Morgoth could be defeated.

All the time of the siege? "not all the power of the Noldor, before the Siege was broken, had availed even to see from afar the shining Silmarils of Fëanor." So how close did they get?

All the years that Angband was under siege by the Noldor served only one purpose in the defeat of Morgoth, it gave time to the Valar to wait while Morgoth weakened himself by dispersing his native power throughout his creatures and through the fabric of Arda itself. This allowed the hosts of the Valar to defeat Morgoth without the total destruction of Arda. At no time were the elves anywhere near a victory.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Jul 25, 2022)

Gothmog said:


> There is no possibility of the Noldor defeating Morgoth "without the Valar's help". If there was no oath, no Kinslaying, Feanor agreeing to Yavana having the Silmarili, Feanor not rushing away to Middle-earth. It is only with the Help of the Valar that Morgoth could be defeated.
> 
> All the time of the siege? "not all the power of the Noldor, before the Siege was broken, had availed even to see from afar the shining Silmarils of Fëanor." So how close did they get?
> 
> All the years that Angband was under siege by the Noldor served only one purpose in the defeat of Morgoth, it gave time to the Valar to wait while Morgoth weakened himself by dispersing his native power throughout his creatures and through the fabric of Arda itself. This allowed the hosts of the Valar to defeat Morgoth without the total destruction of Arda. At no time were the elves anywhere near a victory.


This is true. The Valar's keen spiritual and physical power manifested in the great skills and talents of sorts, would be the only chance for true victory. 

Feanor may have tried to defeat Morgoth, but such a goal would never truly be accomplished without the Valar.


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## d4rk3lf (Jul 25, 2022)

Gothmog said:


> There is no possibility of the Noldor defeating Morgoth "without the Valar's help".


Dunno man. 
I remember (as you're saying) that Valar's advised Noldors not to go because "the time is not right". 
But then again, I remember Tolkien pointing out, that, ONLY if Feanor agreed to give Sillmarils (even they were already stolen without his and Valar's knowledge at that time), everything would be very different. 

To be clear.. I don't think they've could have killed and capture Morgoth. None of the Noldors had the power to do that. 
But if they did (and didn't) done all the points that I addressed earlier, they could maybe destroy his whole army (maybe even Balrogs), and take Silmarils from him, and make him run to some distant place, , where he'd needed another 1000-2000 years to become a threat again. 
(just speculating of course)


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## Gothmog (Jul 26, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> Dunno man.
> I remember (as you're saying) that Valar's advised Noldors not to go because "the time is not right".
> But then again, I remember Tolkien pointing out, that, ONLY if Feanor agreed to give Sillmarils (even they were already stolen without his and Valar's knowledge at that time), everything would be very different.
> 
> ...


Nope. To be just as clear. The Noldorin war against Morgoth was without hope of victory if there was no help from the Valar. Morgoth was simply too powerful. Had the points you brought up earlier been handled differently then they would have had the help of the Valar sooner. However, this also gives rise to the issue that had the host of the Valar struck sooner then Morgoth was in a position of destroying the whole of Arda rather than allow them victory.


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## Olorgando (Jul 26, 2022)

Gothmog said:


> ... However, this also gives rise to the issue that had the host of the Valar struck sooner then Morgoth was in a position of destroying the whole of Arda rather than allow them victory.


If he wasn't in a position to do so the first time the Valar attacked him prior to leading the Elves to Valinor, I doubt he would have been able to the second time. And then JRRT makes it such a big thing that by the time of the War of Wrath, Morgoth had bred (how?) the flying, flame-breathing dragons, particularly Ancalagon. That part has me thinking, as with his utterly out-of-control description of the Morgoth-Ungoliant business, that he'd have to take a very long, very cold shower (and get some sleep) before returning to do some serious revising of this boiling hyperbole. If anything, Tulkas would have body-slammed Morgoth more often, and harder, than the first time around - at which time they could, I would imagine, also have been able to banish him to the void, had JRRT not "endowed" Manwë with a naïvité that would be pathetic in a three-year-old.


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## Gothmog (Jul 26, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> If he wasn't in a position to do so the first time the Valar attacked him prior to leading the Elves to Valinor, I doubt he would have been able to the second time. And then JRRT makes it such a big thing that by the time of the War of Wrath, Morgoth had bred (how?) the flying, flame-breathing dragons, particularly Ancalagon. That part has me thinking, as with his utterly out-of-control description of the Morgoth-Ungoliant business, that he'd have to take a very long, very cold shower (and get some sleep) before returning to do some serious revising of this boiling hyperbole. If anything, Tulkas would have body-slammed Morgoth more often, and harder, than the first time around - at which time they could, I would imagine, also have been able to banish him to the void, had JRRT not "endowed" Manwë with a naïvité that would be pathetic in a three-year-old.


How do you say that he was not in a position to do so the first time? The great battle of the powers destroyed much of the north and changed much to the south. Motgoth at that time did not believe that the Valar, even with all their host could defeat him so would not feel the need to destroy Arda rather than lose. When he returned to Middle-earth, even after he had given Ungoliant a large amount of power, he was still able to do vast amounts of destruction and had he been attacked by the host of the Valar at that time he would know that he would lose and out of spite would destroy as much as he could simply because "If he could not have it, no one could". After he had weakened himself further by spreading his will and power through his creatures and the fabric of Middle-earth, the War of Wrath resulted in the almost complete destruction of Beleriand with damage to other parts. How much of Middle-earth would have been left if Morgoth was anywhere near his original strength?

As for Manwe's naïvité, I agree. There was a serious failing there. At the point where they had taken Morgoth to Aman they should have either banished him to the void or made a permanent room for him in the Halls of Mandos.


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## d4rk3lf (Jul 26, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> by the time of the War of Wrath, Morgoth had bred (how?) the flying, flame-breathing dragons, particularly Ancalagon. That part has me thinking


This is why I think that in War Of Wrath Valar's didn't participated at all (maybe only Tulkas, at the end to put a chain on Morgoth), and very few Maia's. 
If any Vala participated I don't think that no dragon, even Ancalagon the black would be able to push it back. 



Gothmog said:


> As for Manwe's naïvité, I agree. There was a serious failing there. At the point where they had taken Morgoth to Aman they should have either banished him to the void or made a permanent room for him in the Halls of Mandos.


You can call it naive, but if his thoughts worked in a way that he couldn't forgive, and question Morgoth motives all the time (distrusting him), he would be much closer to Morgoth in thoughts, then an apposite of Morgoth. 
He was complete opposite.


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## Gothmog (Jul 26, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> You can call it naive, but if his thoughts worked in a way that he couldn't forgive, and question Morgoth motives all the time (distrusting him), he would be much closer to Morgoth in thoughts, then an apposite of Morgoth.
> He was complete opposite.


What else would you call it? Manwe could not comprehend the evil of Morgoth. Manwe was the Only Vala that did not understand the depth of Morgoth's evil.

We are in the position of having "20/20 Hindsight" where Manwe had to rely on the Foresight of the Vision of the Music and his limited contact with Eru. But there are things in the Music of the Ainur that we don't really know. As Manwe stated:


> 'So shall it be! Dear-bought those songs shall be accounted, and yet shall be well-bought. for the price could be no other. Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil yet be good to have been.'


And as Mandos said:


> 'And yet remain evil. To me shall Fëanor come soon.'


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Jul 26, 2022)

Gothmog said:


> What else would you call it? Manwe could not comprehend the evil of Morgoth. Manwe was the Only Vala that did not understand the depth of Morgoth's evil.


I would not call Manwe naive. He may not have fully comprehended the Evil of Morgoth, but within him, I think it was more his overwhelming compassion and kindness that gave pardon to the sins of Morgoth, whether rightly or not. Remember, Manwe sought counsel from the Mighty Illuvatar Himself. It may be a bit unwise to name his very forgiving take as naivety. 

I think it came from more of an inner goodness than a lack of knowledge. For instance, if one who is of Light, and whom from Light shines radiantly, should walk amid the paths of darkness, the darkness they might not perceive, for though it was dark, and shall once again return to darkness once they have passed, the Light within illuminates the darkness, and it can no longer be seen. I think this is the same for Manwe. He sees in the Light of Illuvatar and the Light of himself, and for that reason, to perceive darkness is near impossible for him. 

I also think that it may be that he saw some great good that should result from the loosing of Morgoth, and for this reason, he freed Morgoth, knowing that in the end, as is told in the Music of Ainulindale, a greater goodness should arise from the fell deeds of Evil among the world of Arda.


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## Copia (Jul 27, 2022)

Well I don't agree on that it was impossible without the Valar. Did not Fingolfin show that Morgoth could be defeated against a foe other than the Valar?


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## Gothmog (Jul 27, 2022)

Copia said:


> Well I don't agree on that it was impossible without the Valar. Did not Fingolfin show that Morgoth could be defeated against a foe other than the Valar?


Well, you may agree or not but Fingolfin showed that Morgoth's physical body could be injured (something that was not in doubt) and it cost Fingolfin his life to do so. Had he actually managed to get in a "Killing Blow" what would have been the result? Morgoth would have needed to take a breather and built up a new body. This could possibly had the unwanted result of Morgoth becoming less bound to the physical body he then would inhabit as it would be new. The facts are that at no time were the Noldor anywhere near victory during the whole of the time they were in Middle-earth until The War of Wrath!


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## Ent (Jul 27, 2022)

Copia said:


> Well I don't agree on that it was impossible without the Valar. Did not Fingolfin show that Morgoth could be defeated against a foe other than the Valar?



This is a difficult question.
Temporary defeats and short term events do not a long term solution make or bring.
Illuvatar told Melkor that he would see that he could not sing any music that was not ultimately a part of Illuvatar's great plan. 
We must hold that in view as we think through all the 'incidences' that happen. 
Illuvatar's new theme- new revelation - he gave to them to sing, and embellish with their own additions, was "glory at the beginning and splendour at its end". 

Was Manwe naive? Or was he conducting his proper part in the composition.
This, I think, we must leave to each one of us to decide. It is, frankly, the 'great question' we always face.


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## Gothmog (Jul 27, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> Was Manwe naive? Or was he conducting his proper part in the composition.
> This, I think, we must leave to each one of us to decide. It is, frankly, the 'great question' we always face.


I can only answer "Yes!" He was both as the only other answer in my view is "willful ignorance".


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## Ent (Jul 27, 2022)

Gothmog said:


> I can only answer "Yes!" He was both as the only other answer in my view is "willful ignorance".



Yet "willful ignorance", which often translates into "knowing, and choosing a course of action that does not *seem* consistent with the knowledge", can often be the height of wisdom being executed. Which speaks against being naive.

There are those for whom "willful ignorance" translates into malice, to see certain outcomes that are harmful to their enemy(ies) regardless of other consequences. These we see in politics and other positions of power.

Then there are those for whom"willful ignorance" is simply 'taking the easy road out' as to think things through is just too much bother or too difficult for them.

Then there are those whose actions SEEM to be 'willful ignorance', but are in reality wisdom driven by a much longer range view than what is at first apparent from the situation and circumstances at hand.

Where does Manwe fit?

I personally concur with 'willful ignorance' - and leave the issue of which category to the reader. 😁


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## d4rk3lf (Jul 27, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> Temporary defeats and short term events do not a long term solution make or bring.


Like Elrond said:
"... and many defeats, and many fruitless victories.”


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Jul 27, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> Like Elrond said:
> "... and many defeats, and many fruitless victories.”


Very good quote.


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## Matthew Bailey (Jul 27, 2022)

Noldor. plural Noldorim, but can also be referred to as Noldorin. The distinction between Noldorim and Noldorin is subtle, with the latter being “Those who Speak Noldorin Quenya.”

Teleri is the Plural, with “Teler” being the Singular. So “The Teleri” or “_Lindar_“ (as the Teleri call themselves) _*IS*_ the Plural, already:

The Teleri people. The Teleri Swan-Ships. The Falmari Teleri Home at Aqualondë in Aman, or the Falathrim Teleri home at Eglarest and Brithombar in Beleriand.

The ending _-im_ can mean “_The People of the -._“ But this is principally a Quenya Postfix-stem, and not a Telerin or Sindarin Postfix-stem, although it is applied to the Falathrim, and the Mithrim of Northwestern Beleriand, in Dorthonion, Nevrast, and the land that took their name: Mithrim, which means something different from the Mithrim “Teleri/Sindarin” of the same name who inhabited Mithrim, the land.

I hate Linguistics (no I don’t, but it is a very “messy and untidy” thing — which is why Tolkien created Languages, trying to Tidy them up, which his life showed he had more difficulty than his more youthful self anticipated). 

The ending _-in_ as already mentioned, means “_The Language of the -_“ and “_The People who speak -._“ But some of the people to whom it is refered, like the Sindarin, just took that to mean the same thing as the _-im_ ending stem. 

Dizzying, no?

As for possessive names, typically none of the Middle-earth languages use the English _*’s*_, and instead use the above ending-stems and plurals to also be the possessive. Or in some cases, you will have things like “Gondorian” or “Easterling” that are also possessive nouns.

This isn’t to be insulting or degrading, but solely to introduce proper nomenclature (grammar for naming things).

As for Fëanor.

He was “Fey.” To which it means: “He lost his mind,” or more accurately “His mind was _Broken_.”

It wasn’t spite, so much as Grief and Pride that broke him.

Morgoth tried to seduce him to _The Shadow_ (This is Catholicism’s, and thus Tolkien’s, way of saying “Blocked him from access to knowing what is _Right_ and _Wrong_ or _Good_ and _Evil_”), but Fëanor was too opposed to Melkor-Morgoth to fall to _The Shadow_ (Morgoth’s Influence, or “Rebellion against Eru/God”). 

But Fëanor wasn’t immune to simply “losing it,” and thus being unable to accurately assess what he was doing.

And, as for why Fingolfin remained Loyal.

Fëanor was the _Rightful King of the Noldor_. 

Tolkien was a _Traditionalist_. That means so much more than I could put into not just this post; nor into the entire website nor an entire Book; nor an entire Volume of Books; nor an entire collection of Volumes of Books on the subject; nor into an entire bookshelf of collected Volumes on the subject.

If you feel like spending a few days in researching the basics of this, look into the Pastoralist Movements of the 19th Century, with those like _William Morris_, who is the Author with the largest influence on Tolkien outside of Catholicism, _*and then*_ the Catholic controversies leading to Pope Pius IX’s _Syllabus Errorum_ and then _*The Encyclical of the First Vatican Ecumenical Council of 1868 to 1870*_. The Encyclical is the _*Vatican I*_ to the 20th Century’s more famous, infamous, and contentious or controversial _*Vatican II Encyclical*_.

But _*Vatican I*_ *IS* _*The Foundations of Middle-earth*_. It is based upon a specific type of Catholic Theology that turns against the Sciences; against Modernity; against “Progress;” against The Enlightenment and all of its products (Such as Liberal Democracy, Capitalism, the elimination of the Class Systems and Aristocracy of what is called the _Ancien Régime_ of Europe); and is instead supportive of the Divine Right of the Aristocracy; Supportive of _The Duty_ _*to*_ _that Aristocracy _for all who are _Rightfully/Legitimately Ruled *BY *that Aristocracy_; supportive of Traditional Values and the Pastoralist, effectively Feudal, and/or more “Ancient” forms of Lifestyle that did not center itself around large cities, and basically everything that you find depicted in _*The Lord of the Rings*_ in _the Shire_ or in Gondor (Where Cities did exist but _*only*_ as administrative centers and for protection of a population if attacked; most of the population would be found in rural hamlets, townships, and homesteads collected within the highland valleys, such as Morthond Vale — Blackroot Valley — where the _Oath Breakers_ previously lived).

So, back to Fingolfin.

He continued to follow Fëanor because it was _*his Duty to do so*_. And while Fingolfin was not bound by _The Oath of Fëanor_, he was bound by _*What is Right and Wrong*_ as depicted in the previous description of *The Foundations of Middle-earth* in Catholic Theology.

Fingolfin “Breaking that Trust” would have been a dire “Sin,” even if Tolkien did not frame it explicitly as such. It would have damned Fingolfin’s _Fëa_ from Reunification or Reconstitution of his _Hröa_ as a penance for that violation of Fëanor’s Rights as King of the Noldorim.

*And* because Fingolfin knew Fëanor was not quite “In his Right Mind” that Duty doubled to helping to protect Fëanor from himself in whatever way he could without patronizing or introducing doubt or disloyalty in others.

Middle-earth isn’t quite the “Pretty-Place” many tend to conceive with readings that focus solely on the story, and don’t “_look beneath the hood_” at what is underneath. And that _*does not mean the languages*_. These can be instructive if you get into the same kind of depth beyond just learning the surface grammar and vocabulary, as the Languages are pretty much a decorative framework built atop the Foundations to hold the rest of the structure of the Mythology. 

MB


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Jul 27, 2022)

Matthew Bailey said:


> Noldor. plural Noldorim, but can also be referred to as Noldorin. The distinction between Noldorim and Noldorin is subtle, with the latter being “Those who Speak Noldorin Quenya.”
> 
> Teleri is the Plural, with “Teler” being the Singular. So “The Teleri” or “_Lindar_“ (as the Teleri call themselves) _*IS*_ the Plural, already:
> 
> ...


This was extremely entertaining and educational to read. Cannot recommend enough.


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## Ent (Jul 27, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> This was extremely entertaining and educational to read. Cannot recommend enough.



Indeed.
But of course - "nobody" in "real life" ever ends up with a 'broken mind' and needs help like Feanor - and "nobody" ever feels compelled to, or tries to, fulfill the same roles and functions that Fingolfin found himself in the position of needing to do. (I speak facetiously, of course.) 
In other words, to understand Tolkien means to grasp the ever so complex nature of beings endowed with a thinking existence of an order of thought beyond the basic repetitive behavioral and preservation stage. (Now now, I DO understand a great deal of humankind lives in the state of "repetitive nature" and "unthinking". I do not speak of these.) 

As a side note, Tolkien's "im" plural form is directly derivative of the ancient Hebrew language as well, a great deal about which one could speak. But not here, as it too inevitably raises some intriguing discussions. We can be certain Tolkien knew of its use in the Hebrew.


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## Elthir (Jul 27, 2022)

Matthew Bailey said:


> The ending _-im_ can mean “_The People of the -._“ But this is principally a Quenya Postfix-stem, and not a Telerin or Sindarin Postfix-stem, although it is applied to the Falathrim, and the Mithrim of Northwestern Beleriand, (. . .)



Rather, I think we have a Sindarin (collective or group plural) *-rim* here.

(note Quenya* rimbe*). Also . . .

*Noldo* singular

*Noldor* plural

*Noldorin* term for the Quenya dialect of the Noldor -- also note: *"When the historians needed a general adjective 'Quendian, belonging to the Elves as a whole', they made the new adjective Quenderin (on the model of Eldarin, Noldorin, etc.") . . ."*

JRRT, War of the Jewels, Quendi and Eldar, Author's note 4


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Jul 27, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> Indeed.
> But of course - "nobody" in "real life" ever ends up with a 'broken mind' and needs help like Feanor - and "nobody" ever feels compelled to, or tries to, fulfill the same roles and functions that Fingolfin found himself in the position of needing to do. (I speak facetiously, of course.)
> In other words, to understand Tolkien means to grasp the ever so complex nature of beings endowed with a thinking existence of an order of thought beyond the basic repetitive behavioral and preservation stage. (Now now, I DO understand a great deal of humankind lives in the state of "repetitive nature" and "unthinking". I do not speak of these.)
> 
> As a side note, Tolkien's "im" plural form is directly derivative of the ancient Hebrew language as well, a great deal about which one could speak. But not here, as it too inevitably raises some intriguing discussions. We can be certain Tolkien knew of its use in the Hebrew.


These are good points. Thanks for sharing.


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