# Sauron - A Strong Foe



## Goldilocks Gamgee (Nov 6, 2022)

So, Sauron was a very competent force, even without the Ring, right? Then why does the Council view sending the Rings "over the sea" (if they could find a way to get the Ring safely _to _the sea) a valid way to defeat Sauron? Wouldn't he still present an incredibly difficult foe to defeat, being one of the Maiar?

Also, what was stopping Sauron from forging a second ring to replace the One Ring, during the period that Sauron took to re-build Mordor after his initial defeat?


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## ZehnWaters (Nov 7, 2022)

Goldilocks Gamgee said:


> So, Sauron was a very competent force, even without the Ring, right? Then why does the Council view sending the Rings "over the sea" (if they could find a way to get the Ring safely _to _the sea) a valid way to defeat Sauron? Wouldn't he still present an incredibly difficult foe to defeat, being one of the Maiar?


Because the Valar were powerful enough to destroy the Ring.


Goldilocks Gamgee said:


> Also, what was stopping Sauron from forging a second ring to replace the One Ring, during the period that Sauron took to re-build Mordor after his initial defeat?


He'd divested enough of himself into the first ring he couldn't have done it a second time.


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## Ent (Nov 7, 2022)

Goldilocks Gamgee said:


> Then why does the Council view sending the Rings "over the sea" (if they could find a way to get the Ring safely _to _the sea) a valid way to defeat Sauron?





ZehnWaters said:


> Because the Valar were powerful enough to destroy the Ring.



ZehnWaters' thought about the Valar destroying it could well be a valid one.

Certainly, if it went 'over the sea' it would be somewhat "out of Sauron's reach". (Though 'over the sea' may mean only among the Elves, not necessarily among the Valar themselves.) There is no reason to think he could find or use the Straight Road.

But I don't think sending it there was considered a valid way to handle it any more than tossing it into the sea, giving it to Bombadil, or any other of the things they discussed.

The text (Glorfindel) tells us why it was dispatched as an idea immediately upon its uttering.

‘And they who dwell beyond the Sea would not receive it: for good or ill it belongs to Middle-earth; it is for us who still dwell here to deal with it.’ Tolkien, J.R.R.. The Lord Of The Rings (p. 266). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.

Every consideration given had its downfall save one.

Regarding:


Goldilocks Gamgee said:


> Wouldn't he still present an incredibly difficult foe to defeat, being one of the Maiar?



Yes, he would. Though without the One Ring it would have been easier to resist him, and POSSIBLY (speculatively) the power of the Three Rings could have been brought to bear against him if the One were "over the sea". 

But that may also not be so.

Additionally, as long as the One Ring existed, Sauron could not be utterly defeated/destroyed... regardless of where it was - and that was the only goal worth pursuing.

They chose the only solution available to them to bring an end to it all - perilous as it was, since it gave Sauron an excellent chance of regaining the One Ring. They realized any other course of action was no solution at all. A band-aid. So even if Sauron got the ring back, the end was no different than it would have eventually been anyway. 

(Though evil itself remains, even with Melkor and Sauron both gone to the Void and powerless.)


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## Olorgando (Nov 7, 2022)

The Ent said:


> Additionally, as long as the One Ring existed, Sauron could not be utterly defeated/destroyed...


Yes, but had the One Ring reached Valinor, Aulë could have dispatched of it without even remotely breaking a sweat. He was the Valar equivalent of Maia Sauron, immensely more powerful than Sauron.


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## Eljorahir (Nov 7, 2022)

Goldilocks Gamgee said:


> Also, what was stopping Sauron from forging a second ring to replace the One Ring


I think the answer to this question was once voiced by Feanor (although his was a different question):
_*"For the less even as for the greater there is some deed that he may accomplish but once only..."*_


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Nov 7, 2022)

Eljorahir said:


> I think the answer to this question was once voiced by Feanor (although his was a different question):
> _*"For the less even as for the greater there is some deed that he may accomplish but once only..."*_


Féanor said this? Where?


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## Eljorahir (Nov 7, 2022)

Nienna Qalme-Tári said:


> Féanor said this? Where?


After Melkor and Ungoliant killed the Two Trees but before Feanor knew the Silmarils were taken and his father killed, Feanor is asked to give up the Silmarils so Yavanna might attempt to heal the trees. The quote I provided is part of his refusal. It's from the first pages of the chapter "Of the Flight of the Noldor".


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Nov 7, 2022)

Ah - "but once only". That makes sense. I believe he said somewhere that if the Silmarils were broken, then he would be slain also, and be the first to die in Aman, in which Mandos states "Not the first.", since he latently refers to Finwe (and also possibly Míriel)?


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## Erestor Arcamen (Nov 7, 2022)

Nienna Qalme-Tári said:


> Féanor said this? Where?





> But Fëanor spoke then, and cried bitterly: ‘For the less even as for the greater
> there is some deed that he may accomplish but once only; and in that deed his
> heart shall rest. It may be that I can unlock my jewels, but never again shall I
> make their like; and if I must break them,


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## ZehnWaters (Nov 7, 2022)

Eljorahir said:


> I think the answer to this question was once voiced by Feanor (although his was a different question):
> _*"For the less even as for the greater there is some deed that he may accomplish but once only..."*_


I can verify this.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Nov 8, 2022)

_"...but never again shall I make their like..."_

I've always wondered why Féanor said this - why could he only make them once? Was it because he put his own essence into it, and thus could not replicate it, or was it because of something to do with the Light of the Two Trees? 

If I remember correctly, even the Valar could not replicate them- why?


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## Ent (Nov 8, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> Yes, but had the One Ring reached Valinor,


No dispute there for sure. But the issue is they wouldn't let it come. (Again, whether the Elves, or the Valar.)


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Nov 8, 2022)

The Ent said:


> No dispute there for sure. But the issue is they wouldn't let it come. (Again, whether the Elves, or the Valar.)


Most likely the Valar. They knew it would have been too great a danger to let such object of malice enter the Blessed Realm.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Nov 8, 2022)

Estë said:


> Most likely the Valar. They knew it would have been too great a danger to let such object of malice enter the Blessed Realm.


The elves wouldn't want to be in such close proximity to it for a any extended time, the Valar would have laughed at it and Aule would have had it destroyed in seconds. So I doubt they were worried about it for being malice more than just Eru wanted them to stop meddling in ME affairs going forward.


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