# Aragorn can't get past Butterbur? Ha!



## Confusticated (Oct 16, 2003)

Now I don't know the Layout of the Prancing Pony, but shouldn't Aragorn, if anyone in the world could do it, have been able to get in to see the hobbits?

It all comes down to this...


> And why on earth did we behave so foolishly: we ought to have stayed quite in here.'
> 
> 'It would have been better,' said Strider. 'I would have stopped your going into the common-room, if I could; but the innkeeper would not let me in to see you, or take a message.'



... do you buy it?

Barliman was a very busy man that night too.

I'll buy that Barliman, a very friendly innkeeper, would not take a message... and even that he would try to stop Strider from bothering the hobbits... though I am not sure why this should be. Sure Strider was a strange man, but he was not one to ever cause a problem, and he sometimes told tales. I would expect that Barliman should have seen him in the company of Gandalf before, or maybe even some elves. But neverminding that... to think Aragorn, for the life of Middle-earth, was unable to sneek in to the hobbits...

How can it be?


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## Rhiannon (Oct 16, 2003)

I would assume that any hallway leading to bedrooms would be somewhere behind the bar/front desk/whatever, close enough that Butterbur would see anyone who went in, and that Aragorn didn't feel like making a scene.


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## DGoeij (Oct 16, 2003)

Yes, it was Tolkien, not Tarantino who wrote it. Kicking Butterbur in the groin and stepping over his whimpering body was _not_ an option.


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## Flammifer (Oct 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Nóm _
> *Now I don't know the Layout of the Prancing Pony, but shouldn't Aragorn, if anyone in the world could do it, have been able to get in to see the hobbits?
> 
> It all comes down to this...
> ...



I see what you mean. It doesn't make a lot of sense. However, Gandalf's letter instructed Butterbur to help the hobbits in anyway possible, and I think that (once Butterbur remembered the letter), he would have stopped Strider from going near the hobbits, for fear of Gandalf's wrath. This kind of makes sense as Butterbur didn't have a good opinion of Strider, and would have considered him some sort of annoyance or threat.

Also, about Butterbur seeing Gandalf in the presence of Aragorn, and thus knowing that they are friends, I'm not sure. Unless there is specific evidence saying that they were together at the Prancing Pony, I'd say that they weren't. Aragorn wanted a low profile, as he was the Heir of Isildur. Thus, he was not called by his real name, and he kept his hood over his face, and was very secretive. 

If Strider was seen in such company as Gandalf openly in a town such as Bree, where there are dodgy men like Bill Ferny around, who could tip off the enemy (who we know was searching for an Heir of Isildur), he would be in danger of being captured or something so the Enemy could discover who he was (perhaps?). I don't know. Just a suggestion. I just get the feeling that for Aragorn's sake, Gandalf and Strider would have avoided being seen together openly.


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## DGoeij (Oct 16, 2003)

Flammir, I think the _reasons_ why Butterbur did not let Strider near the Hobbits are quite clear. I think Nom is really concenred about the possiblility that Strider would not have been able to sneak past a busy Butterbur in a full inn. But, I might be wrong.


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## Flammifer (Oct 16, 2003)

Yes, you're right. But I was providing reasons for why Butterbur would pay special attention to stopping Strider from getting in to see the hobbits.


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## Confusticated (Oct 16, 2003)

Strider really had no reason to let Barliman knew he wanted to see the hobbits in the first place.

Strider either knew where their room was at, or could have found out easily.

Barliman was runnig busily all over the place.

The Common Room was crouded, dark and smokey.

Strider had a knack for making himself unseen.

Hobbits' room was on the ground.

The room had Windows.

Strange and dangerous people were about in Bree, even nazgul had been sighted.

For all Strider knew, the hobbits could be assailed at any minute back in their room. The Ring taken from them, and Middle-earth lost.

Flammifer... Barliman's parting words to Frodo in the Common Room seem to imply that he remembered about the Letter from Gandalf just moments before... surely after they had reached the Common Room.


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## Flammifer (Oct 16, 2003)

> 'Very good! But before you go, I should like a word with you in priavte, Mr. Underhill. Something has just come back to my mind that I ought to tell you.'



I don't think the thought has just come to him then. Surely, once he realised that he had forgotten about such an important matter, he would slap a hand to his forehead, and exclaim. He does nothing of the sort. I believe he's thought of it quite a while ago and after seeing to the affair with the disappearance, he's finally been able to address it.


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## Confusticated (Oct 16, 2003)

I don't think the thought came to him at the moment, but if it had come too him much earlier, before the hobbits reached the common room, I think he would have told Frodo right away, to be sure he did not let it slip his mind again. My guess is that he remembered when the disapearing happened, or at least some time after his common room talk with Frodo about Strider. But even if Barliman did remember that letter when he spoke to Strider, what is Strider's excuse for not sneeking off to the hobbits?


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## Elanor2 (Oct 16, 2003)

Well, I have a couple of ideas:

First, Aragorn did not know that Gandalf had left a letter with Butterbur, so he had no way of knowing that Gandalf had left instructions for him to be admitted to the Hobbits presence.

Second, Aragorn knew Butterbur and was aware that he was not the enemy, and Aragorn (being clever) probably had already figured out that he would need Butterbur's cooperation to deceive any spies in the inn. So he would not want to jeopardize mine host's trust by doing something that could be considered 'unlawful'.

Aragorn could have worked his way past Butterbur easily, but that would not have helped matters in the end if he wanted to have the innkeeper's of the hobbits' trust and cooperation. So he was cautious and bit his tongue as much as he could. Quite admirable restraint, in my opinion.


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## jallan (Oct 16, 2003)

Would Aragorn know where the Frodo and Company were?

Butterbur had led them to a private parlor, presumably not the only one in his inn, so they could enjoy a private meal.

No-one but employees and guests who had taken rooms in the inn or guests of those guests would have had any business being outside the common-room. Aragorn couldn’t easily wander into the mazes of the inn and do a random search undisturbed.

Butterbur later says:


> And that Ranger, Strider, he’s been asking questions, too. Tried to get in here to see you, before you'd had bite or sup, he did.


It would appear that Aragorn entered the inn very soon after Butterbur escorted the four Hobbits to a parlor.

Butterbur was very busy and when he returned to the common-room may have just brushed Strider aside as no-account riff-raff who had no business bothering tired gentlehobbits.

After all Butterbur was not so ignorant that he didn’t know that the Brandybucks were very important and wealthy folk in the Shire and put a bit of money in his coffers when they rode out on occasion to spend a night in his inn. Tired travellers (with money and ponies) should be left in peace and quiet to refresh themselves and then they might receive visitors or messages if they so chose.

Aragorn could have pushed the matter, but to do so, chasing after Butterbur in full public view, would have only called attention to the Hobbits, which Aragorn did not want to do.

But outside of that, one might ask why Aragorn didn’t reveal himself to the Hobbits right after Bombabil left them, or even while Bombabil was still there.

Aragorn recognizes Bombadil, whether because he has met him before or from heresay we do not learn. Would not Bombabil’s accompanying the Hobbits have put Aragorn’s suspicions at ease?

Apparently not.

Perhaps Aragorn knows Bombadil only by reputation as an uncanny wight. 

Aragorn later claims he did not reveal himself at once in part because he feared the Hobbits might be a trap set for him. That seems a bit of a makeshift explanation.

There are a number of odd features in this chapter that don’t fit properly.


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## HLGStrider (Oct 17, 2003)

In response to Jallan's final quandry, there used to be a thread about Aragorn being paranoid called "A Trap for a Ranger." I loved that thread. Might be able to dig it up again if you want to comb it over for any loops in my logic.



> Sure Strider was a strange man, but he was not one to ever cause a problem, and he sometimes told tales.



But he was distrusted and there had been strange folk about. . .



> to think Aragorn, for the life of Middle-earth, was unable to sneek in to the hobbits...



I don't think he wanted to sneak. . .a few other quotes give me the impression that you mean something rather devious. . .these:



> The room had Windows.





> Strider really had no reason to let Barliman knew he wanted to see the hobbits in the first place.



and a couple of others. . .I mean, you want the guy to break in to their room? Wouldn't that scare the daylights out of the little blighters?



> Aragorn didn't feel like making a scene.



I agree with that. He should've motioned to Frodo sooner, I think, but the common room style meeting was probably very good. . .the problem wasn't Frodo in that meeting but our old pal Pip.



> Also, about Butterbur seeing Gandalf in the presence of Aragorn, and thus knowing that they are friends, I'm not sure.



I doubt he had. Aragorn was lower profile than that.



> Butterbur was very busy and when he returned to the common-room may have just brushed Strider aside as no-account riff-raff who had no business bothering tired gentlehobbits.



At the least he'd bother them. At the most he'd rob them.



> But outside of that, one might ask why Aragorn didn’t reveal himself to the Hobbits right after Bombabil left them, or even while Bombabil was still there.



This would fall back on the Aragorn paranoia subject.


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## jallan (Oct 17, 2003)

Some people may be missing something,

The Hobbits _never_ went to their rooms at all that night.

Barliman takes them to a small parlour, not to the rooms he as assigned them to sleep in. It is in that parlour that the Hobbits eventually spend the night as it is safer. It has no windows.

(The film changes this.)

For all we know Strider did step out of the common-room regularly to check for lights in the windows of the Hobbit-rooms on the ground floor. Since the Hobbits didn’t go there he wouldn’t have seen anything, unless it were Bob or Nob or some other inn employee getting the rooms ready.

One may suspect that Aragorn’s plan might have been to approach Butterbur again or some other when he seemed more approachable or some other inn employee if the Hobbits did not come into the common-room.


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## HLGStrider (Oct 17, 2003)

Good point, Jallan. I guess we were spacing out. 

What Aragorn did would've worked fine had it not been for Pippin. He had Frodo's interest. He was cautiously bringing the conversation to the point. So far he hadn't _really_ scared Frodo. . . 

Then that idiot Pippin. . .Which was something Aragorn couldn't have predicted and hardly could've prevented other than locking Pippin up somewhere.


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## Ancalagon (Oct 19, 2003)

It is interesting to note that the Hobbits original room was easily accessible, and not by Aragorn alone. Note the fact that when their room was attacked the windows were forced. I am of the camp (courtesy of Halfir) that believes it was not the Nazgul who gained entry to attack them in The Prancing Pony, but others in service of them.


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## Confusticated (Oct 19, 2003)

While Strider may not have predicted that Pippin would be apt to blab, he had been aorund hobbits enough to know how silly they can be. Strider knew dangerous people were around and while the chance of danger finding the hobbts within the Prancing Pony might have seemed small was the risk worth it? 

I had forgot the parlour does not have windows.... When Barliman says the hobbit rooms have windows I just assumed the parlour did too. But when I ask why Strider did not get into the hobbits's room I did mean the parlour. Of course he could have just as well made it to their rooms too and saw they were not in them.

The main point is that Strider was content to sit in the common room while the hobbits where in the Prancing Pony with danger around. He says he had to be sure the hobbits were not a trap, and given what he tells the hobbits he must have planned on doing this by coming to their room with Barliman's permission and then finding out. So he could have just as well did this without Barliman's permission.

All in all it just seems wrong to me Strider did not get to them considering the risk.



> *by jallan*For all we know Strider did step out of the common-room regularly to check for lights in the windows of the Hobbit-rooms on the ground floor.


I'd feel a lot better about the whole thing if we were told this happend. If it did happen, it seems to me the sort of thing Strider would have mentioned.

Strider should have been able to locate the parlour and sneek into it, if he had wanted. He does manage to sneek in later without the hobbits seeing him. What bothers me is that he didn't want to... why didn't he want to?



> No-one but employees and guests who had taken rooms in the inn or guests of those guests would have had any business being outside the common-room. Aragorn couldn’t easily wander into the mazes of the inn and do a random search undisturbed.


I don't buy it. I think he could have snuck through and found them somehow. The place was full of visitors at that time, so what would a person think to see a random stranger, especially one who could be unseen?


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## HLGStrider (Oct 19, 2003)

> While Strider may not have predicted that Pippin would be apt to blab, he had been aorund hobbits enough to know how silly they can be.



I don't think so. I see no compelling evidence that Aragorn socialized with the Bree Hobbits. In fact, I think they would be the least likely of the denizens of Bree (I couldn't have said Bree-ites or something, but I like to use the word Denizen from time to time) to associate with a Ranger.

His main experience with Hobbits would have been Bilbo, who could be silly but was still a remarkable Hobbit. When Aragorn knew him he was also an old and venerable hobbit, if you know what I mean. . .and an Elvish one.



> If it did happen, it seems to me the sort of thing Strider would have mentioned.



Not really. He reminds me of the kind of guy who wouldn't mention anything he didn't have to. . .everything the Hobbits find out about the guy is sort of a "oh, by the way. . ." 



> He does manage to sneek in later without the hobbits seeing him.



I wouldn't call it sneaky. He follows them quietly after getting permission to do so, basically. Frodo had promised him a talk.



> What bothers me is that he didn't want to... why didn't he want to?



Even after he got the permission he still seemed to startle the Hobbits by being there. He is very careful in most parts of the conversation not to frighten them . . .though sometimes he does so purposefully.

I don't think he wanted to scare them by showing up out of nowhere. I think he would've liked to be introduced to them by the harmless looking Butterbur or to approach them as a friendly stranger. . .

Perhaps he hoped they would be as cautious as he would be and was trying to play along with the cautiousness he expected them to have.


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## Snaga (Oct 26, 2003)

My assumption would be that Aragorn, having been initially rebuffed had decided to see who else was in the Common Room of the Inn, and work out their purposes. After all there was a big crowd in that night, and he would want to know who else was about. The hobbits werent going anywhere and he didnt expect an imminent Nazgul attack. In fact he wasnt expecting them to attack the inn themselves at all. So if he was looking for other sources of threat, his actions were quite right.


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## Eledhwen (Oct 26, 2003)

Aragorn was acquainted with Bilbo. He knew Frodo's real name was Baggins and that he was travelling under a pseudonym. What he knew of the Ring meant that Frodo was certainly carrying it.

As for his obedience of Barlimann Butterbur; in addition to the sound reasons given above, we have to remember Aragorn's respect of persons and property. His hand is ever palm upraised for a thing to be given, not clawed or grasping for anything unwillingly given or withheld- whether it be access to a landlord's guests or his kingship.


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## Gandalf The Grey (Oct 26, 2003)

* softly applauds *Eledhwen* *

Well met!

You've taken the words right out of my mouth.  

There's an old saying that a man's home (and by extension, his inn) is his castle. Aragorn of course has rightful claim to kingship over the lands on which Barliman Butterbur's "castle" stands. However, by respecting Butterbur's legitimate authority, he shows remarkably chivalrous humility at the cost of inconvenience to himself. 

Relatedly, I think it fitting that another of Aragorn's names is "Hope" or "Estel." Most men would chafe at granting control to someone like Butterbur who was blissfully unaware of the gravity of the situation and the possibility for Middle Earth to plunge to a ruinous demise should the ring fall into the hands of the Nazgûl at this point. Aragorn rather trusts that his small act of obedience is a virtue that shall be its own reward. Indeed, Aragorn's willingness to accept Butterbur's leadership is followed by the Ringbearer's willingness to accept Aragorn's.


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## jallan (Oct 31, 2003)

There is the strange and unexplained disappearance of all the horses and ponies from Butterbur‚s stables, even though supposedly his people are on watch.

I think Butterbur had better find new help.

I wonder how the gatekeepers explained the horses and ponies getting past them and out of the town?

Conspiracy theory: almost everyone in Bree except Butterbur and Bob and Nob were in the pay of the Nazgûl.


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## HLGStrider (Mar 7, 2006)

Maybe there is a back, service entrance to Bree you can get through with a swipe card?


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## Ingwë (Mar 27, 2006)

*Opens the map of Middle earth
Bree is to the north of the Great East-West Road so I would say it has southern entrance. The village is also to the east of the North-South Road so I would say it has western entrance. 
The castles that have to protect the population have one entrance or at most second hidden entrance. Bree is not a castle, it cannot be protected from an army and I would say it needs two entrances. Why not? 

_Conspiracy theory: almost everyone in Bree except Butterbur and Bob and Nob were in the pay of the Nazgûl._
Ah, that is great conspiracy. I think the Rangers would know about it if it really exists. 

_I wonder how the gatekeepers explained the horses and ponies getting past them and out of the town._
Maybe the thief used the second entrace or he left some money to that poor man…

_After all Butterbur was not so ignorant that he didn’t know that the Brandybucks were very important and wealthy folk in the Shire and put a bit of money in his coffers when they rode out on occasion to spend a night in his inn. Tired travelers *(with money and ponies) *should be left in peace and quiet to refresh themselves and then they might receive visitors or messages if they so chose._
I’m unsure that Barliman thought about money when he realized that the hobbits are Gandalf’s friends. I guess he wanted to do his job and to leave the hobbits follow their way. I would say that people like Butterbut think Gandalf creates problems and they want not to see him around. How much money did Barliman loose? One of his rooms was ‘overruned’. So I think he lost much more money than the hobbits give him.


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## HLGStrider (Mar 27, 2006)

Actually, it seems to me that Gandalf and Barliman were quite amicable together, friends at least. 

Gandalf's power obviously made Barley a little nervous but only when he feared he had done something stupid enough to merit it turned against him.


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