# What about the Second Music?



## Lhunithiliel (Dec 11, 2003)

_"Silmarillion", "Of the Beginning of Days"_:


> Yet of old the Valar declared to the Elves in Valinor that Men shall join in the Second Music of the Ainur; *whereas Ilúvatar has not revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the World's end, and Melkor has not discovered it.*


What, do you think would be the fate/role of the Elves "after the end of the World"? Men are to join the second Music, and I understand it will be played again by the Valar but the Valar already freed from the "bonds" to stay within Arda only. It surely will be a great music!!!

What do you think this second Music will lead to? A new world?
If so....
What will be the role of the Elves in the new world? Will they exist at all?

When I thought of all this, sth. Tolkien said about the Elves came to my mind:


> Letter 131: (in a note):
> ...my 'elves' are only a representation or an apprehension of a part of human nature...


An interesting thought to be considered in the light of the topic I suggest for discussion here. 

Thoughts?


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## Wonko The Sane (Dec 11, 2003)

Perhaps this is meant to allude to a changing of the world?

I know that you'll beat me up for speaking when ignorant of a great deal of The Sil...but maybe he means that the time of men, where the elves are diminished, will be the end of the world...and that the elves will have a part in it not through living there...but from afar?



Forgive me this, my first post in The Sil forum...for being so incredibly stupid...:-/ I'm only a beginner...but I really love The Sil so far...and I really want to discuss.


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## Arvedui (Dec 11, 2003)

Last things first: Wonko, you and every other member are welcome to post as much as you want. IMO, every post is significant, as long as you have an opinion. And, BTW, I think that your bring on a good point. 

Lhun, I don't know if the Valar will ever be freed from their bonds to Arda. Maybe, maybe not. Remember that there are other Ainur out there that did not enter into Arda.

Will the Second Music lead to a new world? IMO, yes. I believe that Eru will 'try again,' but this time without Melkor/Morgoth, which will make this New World a wholy different place for its inhabitants. A place without evil. (Am I a romantic, or what?) 

But will the Elves exist in this world? Based on what I have read and understood from Tolkien's texts (which is not very much, I know), I don't think so. Only Men will inhabit this World of the Children of Ilúvatar. 
I believe that the fate of the Elves are tied to the fate of Arda. But the Arda that Elves will live in will not be the Arda we know from the Silmarillion, though. It will be the Arda Healed. ( I am really a hopeless romantic...)
The difference between Men and Elves are best illustrated when looking at the different fate of the _fëar_ of Men and Elves. Or as Finrod put it:


> For strange as wee deem it, we see clearly that the fëar of Men ar not, as are ours, confined to Arda, nor is Arda their home.


 If Finrod is right, as I think that he is, the answer lies there.

just a thought...


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## Walter (Dec 12, 2003)

There once was a thread in our guild dealing with the very issue ( Elvish fears for an uncertain end?) your first question raises, Lhun (if I understand it correctly). The thread was abandoned at some point, but I think some important observations were made.

Maybe the threads could/should be merged here?

Oh and welcome back, Wonks


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## Lhunithiliel (Dec 12, 2003)

Where shall I now start...or rather continue....  

All that has been said so far here and the linked thread, as well as another one in the Silmarillion forum opened by Celebthol (What SHOULD have been the Elves future...?)... they all comment on the subject from... shall I say an "inner" point of view.... from within Arda itself.

Here however I'm thinking...Well, if the First Music created Ea (and if I am not mistaken Arda is only a part of Ea), then could we assume that the Second Music is supposed to create NOT only a new Arda unmarred, but an entirly new "Ea" (which I somehow see as a universe)? 
Then... if a new universe is to be born out of the Second Music, could it mean the present Ea will be destroyed too and not Arda only? It seems so to me.

If this is correct, then I think that the Valar, as Ainur appointed to deal with Arda only and bound to it (for it is said that Iluvatar did bind them to Arda and they were not let out again while they governed Arda), will be released from this "ban" and they will be able to return to the "Halls of Eru" from where they once came. 

This leads me to the next point. If the fate of the Elves is their immortality only until Arda exists, then they will cease to exist at the destruction of the whole Ea and Arda as a part of it.
The case with the Valar is clear.
What about Men then?
If I follow the logic of my thoughts above, and what we know from the Athrabet, it results that Men are only "guests" in Arda. This may mean that they, after the death of their hroar, leave Arda and go... Where? Into the larger space called Ea? Or do they join Eru? Well it is said so. This then means that Men's fear live as Ainur outside Ea. This practically makes them equal to the Ainur.  
Therefore, it is not strange that they will be allowed to take part in the Second Music.
What a great role for Men!

Now... let's take into consideration the little note I quoted in my first post:


> Letter 131: (in a note):
> ...my 'elves' are only a representation or an apprehension of a part of human nature...


What I find here as really fascinating is that Tolkien seems to have "provided" the mythical _Elves_ not just for the purpose of populating a fantasy world with fantastical creatures, but they were rather a means for him to reveal that part of the human nature that practically survives the destruction of the first Ea and that will take part in the Second Music, for it seems that Tolkien believed in the good essence of Man as a creature.
In this light, it seems to me that the Elves, seen only as personification of the utmost purity of the race of men, are too going to be actually reborn in the new Ea that is expected to come as a result from the Second Music.  

Yet, we also read that:


> .....Men as the agents of the 'unmarring' of Arda, not merely undoing the marring or evil wrought by Melkor, but by producing a third thing, Arda Re-made - for Eru never merely undoes the past, but brings into being something new, richer than the 'first design'. In Arda Re-made Elves and Men will each separately find joy and content, and an interplay of friendship, a bond of which will be the past.


Those are the hopes that fill Finrod upon his conversation with Andreth.

I am aware of the contradiction existing on the issue Ea < > Arda in Tolkien's works. But this leaves us with the opportunity to choose how to understand it all. 
If I am to chose that Arda is included into Ea, then I find two different opinions.
Seen from the p.o.v. of the Elves, the Second Music seems to be the generator for another Arda only.
Seen from the p.o.v. of Eru, it must be a new Ea.
In the first variant - the Elves will exist *separately* from Men. However, in the light of the note presenting the Elves as personification of the "pure" part of humanity, it means to me that this new Arda is never going to be Unmarred! Why? Because as long as "good" exists apart then there must be "evil" aside! 
So....If we take the version of the Elves, then it results that the new Arda, the Arda Remade is not going to be free of evil.

Now... if we take the second version - that an entirely new Ea is to be born by the Second Music, then.... Could we assume that it can be also an entirely new "order" of life? I guess so. And in that new universe Men seem to exist both for Men and for Elves, or rather I'd say... as Elves being the personification of the very good of men. In fact, these will be probably absolutely new kind of creatures!

Could such a world exist!  

*************

I hope I haven't bored you all to death! 

And WONKS, YOU ARE MOST WELCOME !!!!


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## Wonko The Sane (Dec 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lhunithiliel _
> *Where shall I now start...or rather continue....
> 
> All that has been said so far here and the linked thread, as well as another one in the Silmarillion forum opened by Celebthol (What SHOULD have been the Elves future...?)... they all comment on the subject from... shall I say an "inner" point of view.... from within Arda itself.
> ...




Wow, well knowing I'm welcome in this convo then I'd like to offer my own thoughts on the subject, even though I haven't read The Sil...:-/ Sorry...I'm reading it though! I try! 


Anyway, just a thought, but if we look at the First Music as a sort of quilting bee, where a bunch of people, in this case Valar and their leader, Eru, sit around and sew a huge quilt, each contributing their part, one doing the stitching of the seams, another making the panels for the squares, etc. etc. and that the end result is a perfect quilt later destroyed in places by Melkor...
Then perhaps we can look at the Second Music as a sort of second quilting bee...the same people sit around and mend the quilt...not just putting patches over the pieces that have been burnt and unstitched by Melkor, but taking the patches they've previously put in place away, and making the quilt like new, and perfect again.

In this way the whole of Eä wouldn't have to be destroyed and remade again, but only Arda. It would be mended and remade, and those that had their parts in it to begin with, could come again, men to Middle-Earth, and elves to Valinor, and live in this perfect representation of what the vision was originally meant to be.

Maybe?


As far as the men being on the same plane as the Ainur that doesn't seem right to me.
Do men's spirits live on? Does it say they go to be with Eru?
If so, they wouldn't be the same as the Ainur. Because the Ainur's spirits in the sphere of Eä are already perfect and whole. The men's spirits in the same sphere would be only a shadow of what they formerly were, an essence of that perhaps, and would only be waiting to be born into the world again...


Sorry...I'm ignorant I know...but I still have ideas I'd like to share. Feel free to shoot me down if I say stupid things. 


And thanks for the welcome!


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## Gandalf The Grey (Dec 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Wonko The Sane _
> *Anyway, just a thought, but if we look at the First Music as a sort of quilting bee, where a bunch of people, in this case Valar and their leader, Eru, sit around and sew a huge quilt, each contributing their part, one doing the stitching of the seams, another making the panels for the squares, etc. etc. and that the end result is a perfect quilt later destroyed in places by Melkor...
> Then perhaps we can look at the Second Music as a sort of second quilting bee...the same people sit around and mend the quilt...not just putting patches over the pieces that have been burnt and unstitched by Melkor, but taking the patches they've previously put in place away, and making the quilt like new, and perfect again.
> 
> ...



I like it, *Wonko the Sane!* 

Well met. * bows a greeting *


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## Wonko The Sane (Dec 13, 2003)

Wow! I had an idea people didn't hate! 

Thank you Gandalf The Grey! 

Well met! *curtseys in return*


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## Gandalf The Grey (Dec 13, 2003)

Building further on your vision of the Second Music being a mending of world similar to the mending of a quilt in which salvageable patches are placed into a new pattern to achieve a better effect than the original, *Wonko the Sane,* 

... I see an interwoven related resonance of Music in the song of Tom Bombadil in "Fog on the Barrow Downs," and in his words and actions after, beginning with his snippet of song containing the very phrase _"till the world is mended."_ 

After the dispersal of the Barrow-wight, (or to parallel your post, the influence of Melkor), Old Tom proceeded thus:



> ... Tom went up to the mound, and looked through the treasures. Most of these he made into a pile that glistened and sparkled on the grass. He bade them lie there 'free to all finders, birds, beasts, Elves or Men, and all kindly creatures'; for so the spell of the mound should be broken and scattered ...



I find it comforting that Tom Bombadil includes Elves in his vision of healing, of salvaging pieces of treasure (each piece like a patch of quilt) to transform them through their use to better effect than the original. Whether or not Elves participate in the Second Music some place together with Men or some other place separate, Elves shall certainly not be left out in the cold!


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## Wonko The Sane (Dec 14, 2003)

I agree, Elves and men are both the Children of Ilúvatar alike.
He may have a new place for them in this world after the second music, but he won't leave them out entirely. I dont' think so at least.

Someone asked if the men would play a part in the music, and I think they will, but they won't be a part of the singing as the Ainur would.

I don't think Tolkien would elevate men to the status of the Ainur, but perhaps what he meant by them playing a part in the music is that because this new world will be made to be primarily for them, the Ainur will have that in mind as they sing, and the world will be tailor made to them...
Using the quilt analogy again, it might be as if the men were a woman who just had a baby.
Rather than make a generic quilt that could serve a grandma's spare bedroom, or a wedding hope-chest, and a new-baby alike...they'd make it with the baby in mind. Pink for a girl, for example, and they'd perhaps sew the baby's name, birthday, and birthweight onto the quilt...

It would be in this way that the baby, or in this case men, would have a part in the creation of this quilt, or in our case a new world, but they didn't actually have anything to do with the actual making of it...


Just a thought.


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## Helcaraxë (Dec 26, 2003)

Actually, it would appear that Tolkien eventually wisened up and included elves in the Second Music.



> Though it is said that a greater still shall be made by the Choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Iluvatar after the End of Days.



Note "Children of Iluvatar." This includes elves.


Also, Tolkien says "And all the themes of Iluvatar shall be played aright..."

I think that that's about as clear as we can get; for the themes to be played aright, then the Elves would have to exist or else there could be no theme about the elves because there would be no elves!  


MB


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## Wonko The Sane (Jan 8, 2004)

Of course, we WANT the Elves to be part of the Second Music...because the Elves are, to me at least, and most of the people I know, the most beloved of all Tolkien's "Children"...
 So maybe it's wishful thinking.


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## Helcaraxë (Jan 10, 2004)

Wonko The Sane said:


> Of course, we WANT the Elves to be part of the Second Music...because the Elves are, to me at least, and most of the people I know, the most beloved of all Tolkien's "Children"...
> So maybe it's wishful thinking.




Again, Tolkien says,



> And all the themes of Iluvatar shall be played aright..



In _every_ version of the Ainulindalë that I have seen, including the one in Morgoth's ring, Tolkien expounds that the themes will be played correctly.

Because of the use of the definite article, (_the_ themes) Tolkien must be refering to the same themes that were played in the beginning. The theme of the Elves could hardly be played correctly if it wasn't played at all!  So I think it's more than just wishful thinking.




Arvedui said:


> I believe that the fate of the Elves are tied to the fate of Arda. But the Arda that Elves will live in will not be the Arda we know from the Silmarillion, though. It will be the Arda Healed.




But Arda is still Arda. When Arda changes, the Elves don't disappear. Arda is always changing slightly. The Elves change in response to Arda changing. Thus, when Arda is healed, then I believe that the Elves will be healed with it. To assume that the Elves will disappear when Arda is healed is to assume that they cannot live in an Arda that is changed from the Arda that existed the moment before, which cannot be true.

MB


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## Gandalf The Grey (Jan 10, 2004)

I've been remiss ... should have revisited this thread earlier than now. "Well, I'm back." 

*Morgoth'sBane:* 

Thank you for the post wherein you writ the following --



> Actually, it would appear that Tolkien eventually wisened up and included elves in the Second Music. "Though it is said that a greater still shall be made by the Choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Iluvatar after the End of Days." Note "Children of Iluvatar." This includes elves. Also, Tolkien says "And all the themes of Iluvatar shall be played aright..." I think that that's about as clear as we can get; ...



While the certainty that Elves were indeed included in the Second Music tugged at the back of my mind, my as yet unanswered question kept me from looking up the quote, since I must have unconsciously remembered that my question indeed is not fully answered by the quote ... this question being: 

Will Elves be included in the Second Music TOGETHER WITH MEN, or separately at a different location? 

I'll go on being curious, I guess. 

Meanwhile, thanks again *Morgoth'sBane,* for helping clarify things with that quote! 

Gandalf the Grey


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## Helcaraxë (Jan 11, 2004)

Your welcome  . Unfortunately, Tolkien also says that (don't have exact quote):



> But while Men will of a certainty be a part of the Second Music, what Eru has planned for the Elves, the Valar have not revealed, and Melkor has not discovered it.



A very mangled version, but again I can't find the quote. So first Tolkien is saying that the future of the Elves is ambiguous, then he provides an answer to it, plain and clear!  But I'd trust the most deeply-rooted version of the fate of the Elves, that their theme would be played correctly, and thus they would exist. 

MB


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## Arvedui (Jan 12, 2004)

MorgothsBane said:


> But Arda is still Arda. When Arda changes, the Elves don't disappear. Arda is always changing slightly. The Elves change in response to Arda changing. Thus, when Arda is healed, then I believe that the Elves will be healed with it. To assume that the Elves will disappear when Arda is healed is to assume that they cannot live in an Arda that is changed from the Arda that existed the moment before, which cannot be true.
> 
> MB


Did I give the impression that I thought that the Elves would disappear? In that I case, I appologise. Of course I don't. Like you, I believe that the Elves would be healed too, in some way. My point was just (I think) to show the difference between that fate of Elves and Men. The destiny of the Elves is bound to Arda, while Men's are not.


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## Helcaraxë (Jan 15, 2004)

Oh, well then we agree.  

MB


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