# Glorfindel and Haldir



## Bethelarien (Mar 10, 2003)

In the Silmarillion, both Glorfindel and Haldir die. Glorfindel dies, I believe, after his battle with the balrog. Haldir dies in battle. However, both appear in The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring. How is this possible? I can think of two possibilities.

1) The Valar decided to send them back, their missions were not perhaps accomplished. (This seems the most likely to me, personally.)

or

2) Perhaps they were different elves, having the same name.

Or, a third solution is possible. Perhaps they didn't truly die.

Any ideas?


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## Celebithil (Mar 10, 2003)

I don't know about Haldir but Glorfindel was rehoused by the Valar and brought back to ME because of the sacrifice he mad fighting the Balrog and letting the others escape.


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## Ithrynluin (Mar 10, 2003)

Haldir was a Man of the house of Haleth and he lived in the First Age.

Haldir of Lórien was an Elf in the 3rd Age.


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## Niniel (Mar 10, 2003)

In the Letters (no. 212) Tolkien writes something interesting:


> The Elves wre not subject to disease, but they could be 'slain': that is their bodies could be destroyed, or mutilated so as to be unable to sustain life. But this did not lead naturally to 'death': they were rehabilitated and reborn and eventually recovered memory of all their past: they remained 'identical'.


 This seems to suggest that every Elf who died was eventually reborn, and not just some of them. So it is possible that all Elves who have the same name are actually the same individuals.
But, the only Haldir in the Sil is Haldir son of Halmir of Brethil, so he is a Man, and of course not identical to Haldir the Elf.
(As you all pointed out before me.. someone called on the phone just when I wanted to post the reply... ). But, I what do you think about what Tolkien says? Are all Elves reborn? I was very surprised to read that.


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## Confusticated (Mar 10, 2003)

From Glorfindel II, in Peoples of Middle-earth:



> ... and the disembodiment of their spirits was an unnatural and grievous matter. It was therefore the duty of the Valar, by command of the One, to restore them to incarnate life, if they desired it. But this 'restoration' could be delayed (8) by Manwe, if the fea while alive had done evil deeds and refuse to repent of them, or still harboured any malice against any other person among the living.





> 8. Or in gravest cases (such as that of Feanor) withheld and referred to the One.




Aside from the two mentioned in the Silmarillion to stay in Mandos until the end, Finrod says in Morgoth's Ring that Aegnor will stay in Mandos until the end. 

I don't know where to look to find out how great of a portion of Mandos-goers ended up staying until the end.


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## Bethelarien (Mar 10, 2003)

Ooops. I forgot Haldir was a man. That makes sense, as does the reincarnation stuff (I guess).

Thanks everyone!


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## Mirabella (Mar 10, 2003)

My recollection of events in The Simarillion is a little fuzzy, so could anyone tell me who was the other from the Simarillion doomed to remain in Mandos until the end? Also, why would Aegnor be likewise doomed?


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## Inderjit S (Mar 11, 2003)

> My recollection of events in The Simarillion is a little fuzzy, so could anyone tell me who was the other from the Simarillion doomed to remain in Mandos until the end? Also, why would Aegnor be likewise doomed?



Feanor and Finwe will forever remain in Mandos. feanor because of hisdeeds, and Finwe because he forfeited his life so Miriel could live again.


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## Mirabella (Mar 11, 2003)

I really need to get another copy of The Sim...I thought Finwe was killed by Morgoth? I don't remember anything that suggested Finwe sacrificed himself for Miriel, nor can I imagine why such a sacrifice would be necessary if it is indeed the will of Iluvatar that all Elves be rehoused if they desire it. And I still don't know why Aegnor would be held indefinately.

Sorry to be such a pain, but this has really peaked my curiousity!


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## Sirion (Mar 11, 2003)

What about Aegnor? He didn't do anything bad and died fighting Melko, why is he stuck until the end?


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## Inderjit S (Mar 12, 2003)

I don't think he is.

Maybe it is because he loved a mortal, though that would be wholly unfair and Finduilas should be kept to.


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## Inderjit S (Mar 12, 2003)

> I really need to get another copy of The Sim...I thought Finwe was killed by Morgoth? I don't remember anything that suggested Finwe sacrificed himself for Miriel, nor can I imagine why such a sacrifice would be necessary if it is indeed the will of Iluvatar that all Elves be rehoused if they desire it. QUOTE]
> 
> 
> It's not in the Published Sil., but in 'The Statute of Finwe and Miriel', HoME 10.


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## FoolOfATook (Mar 16, 2003)

> I thought Finwe was killed by Morgoth?



You are probably thinking of Fingolfin, who was slain by Morgoth in combat.


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## Ithrynluin (Mar 16, 2003)

Finwë was also slain by Morgoth.

From _Of the Flight of the Noldor_:



> But even as Nienna mourned, there came messengers from Formenos, and they were Noldor and bore new tidings of evil. For they told how a blind Darkness came northward, and in the midst walked some power for which there was no name, and the Darkness issued from it. But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark. And they told that Melkor had broken the stronghold of Formenos, and taken all the Jewels of the Noldor that were hoarded in that place; and the Silmarils were gone.


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## Mirabella (Mar 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Niniel _
> *The Elves wre not subject to disease, but they could be 'slain': that is their bodies could be destroyed, or mutilated so as to be unable to sustain life. But this did not lead naturally to 'death': they were rehabilitated and reborn and eventually recovered memory of all their past: they remained 'identical'.
> *



If this is true, I simply cannot see why Finwe would have had to remain in Mandos so that Miriel could live again. If Finwe chose to remain, it makes more sense to me that he chose such a fate because his beloved son Feanor was doomed to remain in Mandos forever. After all, he forsook the kingship of the Noldor when Feanor was banned from the City of the Valar.

I guess Aegnor, being in love with a mortal woman, could have chosen to remain in Mandos if he was not capable of finding happiness in Aman without her.


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## Inderjit S (Mar 17, 2003)

> If this is true, I simply cannot see why Finwe would have had to remain in Mandos so that Miriel could live again. If Finwe chose to remain, it makes more sense to me that he chose such a fate because his beloved son Feanor was doomed to remain in Mandos forever.



Nope-It was for Miriel.


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## Mirabella (Mar 17, 2003)

LOL...well, I can't wait until I can locate a copy of Morgoth's Ring to read about this myself. All I am saying is that the idea of Finwe remaining in Mandos so that Miriel could live again, when she should have already had the option of being rehoused since she was an Elf, doesn't make sense


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## Arvedui (Mar 18, 2003)

She had the option, but did not want to come back. 
(If my memory serves me right)


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## Confusticated (Mar 18, 2003)

Ah... I wasn't even refering to Finwe with my comment. Didn't mean to get things complicated.



> Aside from the two mentioned in the Silmarillion to stay in Mandos until the end, Finrod says in Morgoth's Ring that Aegnor will stay in Mandos until the end.


I ment the published Silmarillion (should have specified), the one that we all know, so I was refering to Feanor, and Miriel. 

Sorry I could not address this sooner. Though I knew about Finwe case, I had not read it myself. I don't like to answer questions who's answers I have not read for myself directly from the book.

But I just read this all tonight, so here goes.

In short, the only way that Finwe could have a second wife is if the Union with his first wife were undone, and this could only be so because Miriel would remain in Mandos forever. 

It was actually written and can be found in Morgoth's Ring that after Finwe died, he chose to remain in Mandos forever so that Miriel could leave it.

Further, it was upon meeting Finwe in Mandos that her greif was lessend and she then spoke of a desire to use her body again, and Finwe suggested that Mandos might let her go if he would stay, and Mandos allowed this.

There was a Statute of Miriel and Finwe made because of this case, and there is interesting debate among the Valar that went along with it. It was an intelligent conversation (a daresay it pushed my reading level), and so far as I know, for some of the Valar, the biggest chunks of dialog that can be found. They debated about why Miriel died in Aman (among other things), as far as: was it Iluvatar's doings and a payment for the great Feanor, or was it because of Arda marred, and a thing which would be turned into good use.

As for Aegnor, his brother says he will go to Mandos and remain there until the end. He does not clearly state why that is, though it is implied, but still open to interpretation I suppose.

It is my interpretation that as Mirabella suggested, he would not find happiness. This may have been in part because he thought that Andreth herself would not find happiness, and not just that he would have to exist in bodily form without a spouse.


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## Mirabella (Mar 18, 2003)

Thanks for getting back in this, Nom. So if I understand what you said, Miriel remained in Mandos so that Finwe could remarry, in effect forfeiting her right to be rehoused. Then when she had her change of heart, Finwe made the same sacrifice for her. 

If my summation is correct, this is suddenly becoming more clear to me


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## Confusticated (Mar 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mirabella _
> *Thanks for getting back in this, Nom. So if I understand what you said, Miriel remained in Mandos so that Finwe could remarry, in effect forfeiting her right to be rehoused. Then when she had her change of heart, Finwe made the same sacrifice for her.
> 
> If my summation is correct, this is suddenly becoming more clear to me  *


Pretty close, but one little thing I may not have been clear on. Miriel did not stay in Mandos so that Finwe could marry again, he was just able to do so because Miriel would be staying in Mandos forever. I'm tempted to say more, but there is really tons of information given in the chapter. More explainations might lead to twice as many questions , but if I am still being unclear or have caused confusion just let me know.


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## Melko Belcha (Mar 19, 2003)

No Nom you hit pretty good. There is just too much info in that book to put in one thread. The best you can do is read it yourself. Morgoth's Ring and The War of the Jewels IMO are the best books of the HoME series.


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