# What happens to mortals when they die?



## Mimzy

Do they stay in Mandos until the World is re-made? Do the good ones go to Eru, and the evil ones to the Void with Morgoth?

Tolkien as far as I know, never actually says, but I would guess it probably reflects his Catholic beliefs.


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## camlost

Some may tarry for a while in the Halls of Mandos, but they soon must depart from the world unlike Elves who are bound to Arda. As to where they go, no one knows but Eru -- not even Manwe.


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## HLGStrider

There is some mention of specific mortals being resurrected to fight in the battle against Morgoth, but I don't have my books present, so I can't be more specific about these specific mortals, specifically . . .and they would be special circumstances rather than the norm.

What Camlost said is basically correct and pretty much everything else is speculation.


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## Parsifal

HLGStrider said:


> There is some mention of specific mortals being resurrected to fight in the battle against Morgoth, but I don't have my books present, so I can't be more specific about these specific mortals, specifically . . .and they would be special circumstances rather than the norm.


 
Definately Turin, who would take his revenge on Morgoth. Probably other great warriors too, like Beren, Hurin, maybe some second/third age guys?

Pretty much like the Germanic Walhalla, really, the Heroes of the battlefields that are chosen get to dwell in the Halls of Odin, always training (and drinking in the evening :*D) untill they can be used in the Ragnarok.


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## Thalion

No one knows, except Eru. when the die, the souls go to the halls of mandos and stay there a while, then they depart the world forever. There a a few that may return one day to do battle with Melkor in the final battle (e.g turin, beren and hurin)

but i like to think when they depart they all go to the timeless halls in which Eru abodes ansd find peace there from the troubles and hurts of arda which Mekor tainted in the great music, so in a very tiny amount men are not to blame for there evil doings.

When you say mortals, do you alsoi mean dwarfs and hobbits? because i belive dwarfs go to another hall with Aule and wait there till the worlds end were they will rebuild the world, hobbits on the other hand i have no idea. 

wow i write to much sometimes


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## Parsifal

Thalion said:


> hobbits on the other hand i have no idea.


 
Hobbits are Men.


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## Peeping-Tom

Parsifal said:


> Hobbits are Men.


 
I concur...

To quote the (very long) Letter 131 "_Hobbits are, of course, really meant to be a branch of the specifically human race....They are entirely without non-human powers but are represented as being more in touch with 'nature' ...and abnormally, for humans, free from ambition or greed for wealth. They are made small.....partly to exhibit the pettiness of man.....and mostly to show up, in creatures of very small physical power, the amazing and unexpected heroism of ordinary men 'at a pinch'_." 

Tolkien said nothing about evolution or that hobbits were not created by Eru, wherever this came from wasn't from the lexicon. Hobbits were men, just smaller men who were more in touch with nature than most men. But I think we can safely assume that they were created by Eru with the same intent as He showed in creating the many other diversities of humans. (Druedain for one)


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## PanconJamon

Peeping-Tom said:


> I concur...
> 
> To quote the (very long) Letter 131 "_Hobbits are, of course, really meant to be a branch of the specifically human race....They are entirely without non-human powers but are represented as being more in touch with 'nature' ...and abnormally, for humans, free from ambition or greed for wealth. They are made small.....partly to exhibit the pettiness of man.....and mostly to show up, in creatures of very small physical power, the amazing and unexpected heroism of ordinary men 'at a pinch'_."
> 
> Tolkien said nothing about evolution or that hobbits were not created by Eru, wherever this came from wasn't from the lexicon. Hobbits were men, just smaller men who were more in touch with nature than most men. But I think we can safely assume that they were created by Eru with the same intent as He showed in creating the many other diversities of humans. (Druedain for one)


 
They were related to the Rohirrim, which was expressed in some traditions and even in linguistic similarities. However, you could not say for sure if this was some kind of very old genetic link, or just the fact that they inhabited adjacent lands at the beggining of the third age, then having cultural interaction.


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## Starflower

Mimzy said:


> Do they stay in Mandos until the World is re-made? Do the good ones go to Eru, and the evil ones to the Void with Morgoth?
> 
> Tolkien as far as I know, never actually says, but I would guess it probably reflects his Catholic beliefs.


 
ALL Men go to the Halls of Mandos, there is no mention that evil ones would end up in a different place than good ones.


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## Peeping-Tom

The only "souls" that Tolkien had any plans for, were Men and Dwarves.

Dead Dwarf-souls stayed at a seperate place at Mandos, and would eventually be released as "true children" of Eru.

Dead Human-souls would stay at Mandos, only a short while and then be moved to an unknown location, outside the World (Ea). They will eventually become the "new Ainur" and make the 2. music of the Ainur.

What happens to the immortal-souls, when Ea is no more, nobody knows.



> From The Silmarillion :
> 
> Chapter 1, Of the Beginning of Days
> _But the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the world; wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers.
> Death is their fate, the gift of Ilúvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers
> shall envy. But Melkor has cast his shadow upon it, and confounded it with
> darkness, and brought forth evil out of good, and fear out of hope. Yet of old
> the Valar declared to the Elves in Valinor that Men shall join in the Second
> Music of the Ainur; whereas Ilúvatar has hot revealed what he purposes for
> the Elves after the World's end, and Melkor has not discovered it.
> 
> _Chapter 12, Of Men_
> But Men were more frail, more easily slain
> by weapon or mischance, and less easily healed; subject to sickness and
> many ills; and they grew old and died. What may befall their spirits after
> death the Elves know not. Some say that they too go to the halls of
> Mandos; but their place of waiting there is not that of the Elves, and
> Mandos under Ilúvatar alone save Manwë knows whither they go after the
> time of recollection in those silent halls beside the Outer Sea. None have
> ever come back from the mansions of the dead, save only Beren son of
> Barahir, whose hand had touched a Silmaril; but he never spoke afterward
> to mortal Men. The fate of Men after death, maybe, is not in the hands of
> the Valar, nor was all foretold in the Music of the Ainur.
> 
> _About the Dwarves:Chapter 2, Of Aulë and Yavanna_
> For they say that Aulë the Maker, whom they call Mahal, cares
> for them, and gathers them to Mandos in halls set apart; and that he
> declared to their Fathers of old that Ilúvatar will hallow them and give
> them a place among the Children in the End. Then their part shall be to
> serve Aulë and to aid him in the remaking of Arda after the Last Battle.
> _


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## Mimzy

I know Tolkien was a VERY devoted Catholic, but did he believe in eternal Hell? And I wonder if he did, did that extend into his fictional realm.

I do think it's pretty clear when men die, they go with Eru though.


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## Adanedhel

When Gandalf spoke to Pippin about the afterlife, do you think that he was talking about what happens to men/mortals when they die?


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## Bucky

It's really not applicable & just a figment of Peter Jackson's imagination.

That scene does not even remotely appear in the book.

The fate of Mortal Men is a mystery in Middle-earth.


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## Troll

Adanedhel said:


> When Gandalf spoke to Pippin about the afterlife, do you think that he was talking about what happens to men/mortals when they die?



It seems like most everybody spends at least a little time in the Halls of Mandos after they die, so I would guess that all the Children of Iluvatar would see the shores of Valinor on their way to whatever eternal fate awaits them.


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## Elthir

My problem with Jackson's invented scene: I think the natural implication to the average film goer is that Gandalf is explaining death to Pippin, rather than explaining something a mortal _might_ see on the way to their ultimate fate -- if in fact Men actually 'see' Valinor upon death in the first place, and if in fact Men go to the Halls of Mandos for a time. I think this latter point is presented as a belief of the Elves.


So in my opinion Jackson's invented scene steps on Tolkien rather notably; and unnecessarily I would say.


'What may befall their spirits after death the Elves know not. Some say that they too go to the halls of Mandos; but their place of waiting there is not that of the Elves, and Mandos under Ilúvatar alone save Manwe knows wither they go after the time of recollection in those silent halls beside the Outer sea. None have ever come back from the mansions of the dead, save only Beren son of Barahir, whose hand had touched a Silmaril; but he never spoke afterward to mortal Men. The fate of Men after death, maybe, is not in the hands of the Valar, nor was all foretold in the Music of the Ainur.'

From the author's commentary on Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth 7) 'Since Men die, without accident, and whether they will to do so or not, their fear must have a different relation to Time. The Elves believed, though they had no certain information, that the fear of Men, if disembodied, left Time (sooner or later), and never returned. (Author's note *4 ...)' *note 4: 'Sooner or later. Because the Elves believed that the fear of dead Men also went to Mandos (...). There they waited until they were surrendered to Eru. The truth of this is not asserted...' JRRT


Tolkien makes a point to note (as also in the rest of the Athrabeth quote after my (...)) that Beren never spoke to Mortal Men, or was not seen again by living Men, further impressing the idea, I think, that this notion might be a belief not a known fact.


But in any case, again: won't the average film goer simply think Gandalf is choosing to explain death for Men?


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## Claro Del Rosario

According to JRR's "Tale of Adanel" men were created originally by Eru with everlasting life but they fell from grace because they were deceived by Morgoth into believing that the VOICE (Eru) that guided them at first was the DARK who wishes to devour them. Thus, through deception and lies Morgoth was able to convince men to workship him as Lord and God and build a house for him where they swore their allegiance to him as their only Lord. 

This betrayal of men displeases Eru and he changed their nature to become mortal men. Eru declared that despite their betrayal they (men) remain as his own and each of them will come to him (when they die) and he will teach them who lied to them: Morgoth or Eru (who created Morgoth). Clearly when men die their spirit go to Eru in the timeless hall to be taught by him who lied to them. Men remain Eru's possession and they will not be going anywhere except to be with him in the timeless halls with the other Ainur and this will enable men to sing with them in the second music of the Ainur.

Finrod believes that the redemption of the Elves is with men when they sing together with the Ainur the second music which will mean a better place for both men and Elves.

From The Tale of Adanel:

The first Voice we never heard again, save once. In the stillness of the night It spoke, saying: 'Ye have abjured Me, but ye remain Mine. I gave you life. Now it shall be shortened, and each of you in a little while shall come to Me, to learn who is your Lord: the one ye worship, or I who made him.'

From The Silmarillion :

Chapter 1, Of the Beginning of Days
_But the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the world; wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers.
Death is their fate, the gift of Ilúvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers
shall envy. But Melkor has cast his shadow upon it, and confounded it with
darkness, and brought forth evil out of good, and fear out of hope. Yet of old
the Valar declared to the Elves in Valinor that Men shall join in the Second
Music of the Ainur; whereas Ilúvatar has hot revealed what he purposes for
the Elves after the World's end, and Melkor has not discovered it._



Mimzy said:


> I know Tolkien was a VERY devoted Catholic, but did he believe in eternal Hell? And I wonder if he did, did that extend into his fictional realm.
> 
> I do think it's pretty clear when men die, they go with Eru though.



I'm quoting a portion of Note 4 from "J.R.R. Tolkien: Notes and Commentary on ATHRABETH FINROD AH ANDRETH"
The Debate of Finrod and Andreth

Note 4
_"Sooner or later: because the Elves believed that the fëar of dead Men also went to Mandos (without choice in the matter: their free will with regard to death was taken away). There they waited until *they were surrendered to Eru.*"_

This is the belief of the Elves perhaps because of the teaching of the Valar [taken from the Silmarillion] that men shall join in the Second Music of the Ainur in the remaking of Arda. For men to join in the Second Music of the Ainur they must all be gathered in the timeless halls with the other Ainur who did not enter Arda.

From The Silmarillion :

Chapter 1, Of the Beginning of Days

_But the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the world; wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers. Death is their fate, the gift of Ilúvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy. But Melkor has cast his shadow upon it, and confounded it with darkness, and brought forth evil out of good, and fear out of hope. *Yet of old the Valar declared to the Elves in Valinor that Men shall join in the Second Music of the Ainur*; whereas Ilúvatar has hot revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the World's end, and Melkor has not discovered it.
_
From the "Tale of Adanel" it was told that men were created with everlasting life but they offended Eru (the VOICE) by allowing themselves to be deceived by Melchor into believing that ERU is the DARK who wishes to devour them and that Mechor is their Lord and God who would save them from the DARK. Despite this fall of man Eru declared that they (men) remain his own and that he shortened their lives [or made them mortals] so that each one of them will come to him to know who lied: ERU (the VOICE) of Melchor whom he created. This is the tale that Andreth at first hesitated to reveal to King Finrod in "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth".

Quotations from "ATHRABETH FINROD AH ANDRETH"

A shadow seemed to lie upon them, and *there was a darkness behind them*, of which they were loth to speak even among themselves. And they were in awe of the Eldar and would not easily reveal to them their thought or their legends. Indeed the Wise among Men (who were few) for the most part *kept their wisdom secret *and handed it on only to those whom they chose.
............................
'That is not the voice that the Wise hear out of the darkness and from beyond it. Nay, lord, the Wise among Men say: *"We were not made for death, nor born ever to die. Death was imposed upon us."* And behold! the fear of it is with us always, and we flee from it for ever as the hart from the hunter.
............................
'Therefore I say to you, Andreth, *what did ye do, ye Men, long ago in the dark? How did ye anger Eru?* For otherwise all your tales are but dark dreams devised in a Dark Mind. Will you say what you know or have heard?'_* 'I will not' said Andreth. *_'We do not speak of this to those of other race. But indeed the Wise are uncertain and speak with contrary voices; for whatever happened long ago, we have fled from it; we have tried to forget, and so long have we tried that now we cannot remember any time when we were not as we are—save only legends of days when death came less swiftly and our span was still far longer, but already there was death.'*
............................


Quotations from the "Tale of Adanel"

Some say the Disaster happened at the beginning of the history of our people, before any had yet died. The Voice had spoken to us, and we had listened. The Voice said: 'Ye are my children. I have sent you to dwell here. *In time ye will inherit all this Earth*, but first ye must be children and learn. Call on me and I shall hear; for *I am watching over you*.'
...............................
In that time we called often and the Voice answered. But it seldom answered our questions, saying only: 'First seek to find the answer for yourselves. For ye will have joy in the finding, and so grow from childhood and become wise. Do not seek to leave childhood before your time.'
.................................
Then one appeared among us, in our own form visible, but greater and more beautiful; and he said that he had come out of pity. 'Ye should not have been left alone and uninstructed, he said. 'The world is full of marvelous riches which knowledge can unlock. Ye could have food more abundant and more delicious than the poor things that ye now eat. Ye could have dwellings of ease, in which ye could keep light and shut out the night. Ye could be clad even as I.
.................................
Then we looked and lo! he was clad in raiment that shone like silver and gold, and he had a crown on his head, and gems in his hair. 'If ye wish to be like me,' he said, 'I will teach you.' Then we took him as teacher. He was less swift than we had hoped to teach us how to find, or to make for ourselves, the things that we desired, though he had awakened many desires in our hearts. But if any doubted or were impatient, he would bring and set before us all that we wished for. 'I am the Giver of Gifts, he said; and the gifts shall never fail as long as ye trust me.' Therefore we revered him, and we were enthralled by him; and we depended upon his gifts, fearing to return to the life without them that now seemed poor and hard. And we believed all that he taught. For we were eager to know about the world and its being: about the beasts and birds, and the plants that grew in the Earth; about our own making; and about the lights of heaven, and the countless stars, and the Dark in which they are set.
....................................
All that he taught seemed good, for he had great knowledge. But ever more and more he would speak of the Dark. 'Greatest of all is the Dark,' he said ' for It has no bounds. I came out of the Dark but I am Its master. For I have made Light. I made the Sun and the Moon and the countless stars. I will protect you from the Dark, which else would devour you.' Then we spoke of the Voice. But his face became terrible; for he was angry. 'Fools!' he said. 'That was the Voice of the Dark. It wishes to keep you from me; for it is hungry for you.'
......................................
Then he went away, and we did not see him for a long time, and without his gifts we were poor. And there came a day when suddenly the Sun's light began to fail, until it was blotted out and a great shadow fell on the world; and all the beasts and birds were afraid. Then he came again, walking through the shadow like a bright fire.
........................................
We fell upon our faces. 'There are some among you who are still listening to the Voice of the Dark,' he said, 'and therefore It is drawing nearer. Choose now! Ye may have the Dark as Lord, or ye may have Me. But unless ye take Me for Lord and swear to serve Me, I shall depart and leave you; for I have other realms and dwelling places, and I do not need the Earth, nor you.' _*Then in fear we spoke as he commanded, saying: 'Thou art the Lord; Thee only we will serve. The Voice we abjure and will not hearken to it again.' *_'So be it!' he said. *'Now build Me a house upon a high place, and call it the House of the Lord.* Thither I will come when I will. There ye shall call on Me and make your petitions to Me.'
..........................................
And when we had built a great house, he came and stood before the high seat, and the house was lit as with fire. *'Now,' he said, 'come forth any who still listen to the Voice!' There were some, but for fear they remained still and said naught. 'Then bow before Me and acknowledge Me!'* he said. And all bowed to the ground before him, saying: '*Thou art the One Great, and we are Thine.'* Thereupon he went up as in a great flame and smoke, and we were scorched by the heat. But suddenly he was gone, and it was darker than night; and we fled from the House.
............................................
Ever after we went in great dread of the Dark; but he seldom appeared among us again in fair form, and he brought few gifts. If at great need we dared to go to the House and pray to him to help us, we heard his voice, and received his commands. But now he would always command us to do some deed, or to give him some gift, before he would listen to our prayer; and ever the deeds became worse, and the gifts harder to give up.
..............................................
The first Voice we never heard again, save once. In the stillness of the night It spoke, saying: 'Ye have abjured Me, but ye remain Mine. I gave you life. _*Now it shall be shortened,*_ and _*each of you in a little while shall come to Me*_, _*to learn who is your Lord: the one ye worship, or I who made him.'*_



Claro Del Rosario said:


> I'm quoting a portion of Note 4 from "J.R.R. Tolkien: Notes and Commentary on ATHRABETH FINROD AH ANDRETH"
> The Debate of Finrod and Andreth
> 
> Further to this:
> 
> When Eru says that _*the life of men shall be shortened*_ it means their life span was originally longer say, 500 years. But their original nature is still mortal and not immortal like the Elves. Otherwise they should have been created as elves. The Wise Men of old who kept the "Tale of Adanel" a secret to other race may have misunderstood the last message they heard from Eru about their life being shortened as a statement that their nature shall be changed from being immortal (everlasting) to mortal.
> 
> Finrod thinks that the wise men of old made this mistake about their nature or fate (doom) since he feels that this peculiar *gift of men* might be for a higher purpose - the *redemption of Arda and the elves.* He knows from the teaching of the Valar that men shall join in the singing of the second music of the Ainur while the fate of the elves after the end of Arda is unknown. The elves fear that this is the shadow in front of them - their final annihilation when Arda's life is ended. This is real death indeed. Their hope is that men who died go to Eru in his timeless halls and there shall sing a new music whereby both elves and men will live perfectly happy in an Arda remade. This is perhaps the element in the music that Eru introduced later which is unknown to both Melchor and the Ainur to provide the solution to the marring of Arda by Melchor.
> 
> Finrod could not accept the suggestion that men were originally created immortal and that Melchor changed their nature since he knows that only Eru can do that - assuming he really did it. But there is no statements in the Legendarium that support the idea that men were originally created immortal and their nature was changed by Eru to become mortals when they rejected Eru as Lord and God and replaced him with Melchor. If that is the case then their mortality is a punishment and not a gift which has for its sole purpose the good of men - to live a very short life so that they shall be with Eru after they die which would make them infinitely happier compared with the elves living in Arda.
> 
> Finrod can only accept the suggestion that perhaps men were originally created mortals with long span of life say 500 years. This was shortened by Eru as punishment for allowing themselves to be seduced and marred by Melchor. Finrod can accept it since he as an Elf can also feels the debilitating effect of the marring of his "heor" (physical body which is part of Arda that Melchor marred and corrupted). This is the wayning of the elves. Thus, both men and Elves were hurt by the marring done by Melchor. This shortening of life span occurred again to the Numenorians (who were rewarded by the Valar with long life span for helping their host in the war of wrath) after the second fall of man.
> 
> Finrod suspects that men were too great in terms of their doom as shown in his statement below in "ATHRABETH FINROD AH ANDRETH" concerning why the Valar did not seem to care about men the way they cared about elves:
> 
> Andreth looked up and her eyes darkened. 'The Valar?' she said. 'How should I know, or any Man? Your Valar do not trouble us—either with care or with instruction. They sent no summons to us.'
> 
> 'Has it never entered into your thought, Andreth, that out there in ages long past ye may have put yourselves out of their care, and beyond the reach of their help? *Or even that ye, the Children of Men, were not a matter that they could govern?* For ye were *too great*. Yea, I mean this, and do not only flatter your pride: too great. _*Sole masters of yourselves within Arda, under the hand of the One.
> *_
> The Valar were not allowed to meddle in the affairs of men. This is the reason why they laid down their governance of Arda when the Numenorians came and invaded their lands and leave to Eru what to do with these men_*. *_This is also the reason why in the 3rd age against Sauron they only sent 5 wizards who were instructed to be advisers of men and not to use their full powers.





camlost said:


> Some may tarry for a while in the Halls of Mandos, but they soon must depart from the world unlike Elves who are bound to Arda. As to where they go, no one knows but Eru -- not even Manwe.


We the readers of JRR Tolkien of course know. Manwe being a character in the story would not know what JRR Tolkien wrote in his letters and commentaries and the lore of the earliest mortals. However, Manwe knows that men shall join in the second music of the Ainur. The Valar declared this to the Eldars living at Aman. JRR also wrote that Mandos has no authority to keep the spirits of men in his halls but he must surrender them to Eru. Thus, they went to Eru in his timeless halls to await for the singing of the second music of the ainur where they would take part in it.

Chapter 1, Of the Beginning of Days

_But the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the world; wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers. Death is their fate, the gift of Ilúvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy. But Melkor has cast his shadow upon it, and confounded it with darkness, and brought forth evil out of good, and fear out of hope. *Yet of old the Valar declared to the Elves in Valinor that Men shall join in the Second Music of the Ainur*; whereas Ilúvatar has hot revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the World's end, and Melkor has not discovered it.
_
I'm quoting a portion of Note 4 from "J.R.R. Tolkien: Notes and Commentary on ATHRABETH FINROD AH ANDRETH"
The Debate of Finrod and Andreth

Note 4
_"Sooner or later: because the Elves believed that the fëar of dead Men also went to Mandos (without choice in the matter: their free will with regard to death was taken away). There they waited until *they were surrendered to Eru.*"
_


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## Cloudhauler

“This we hold to be true, that your home is not here. Neither in the land of Aman nor anywhere within the circles of the world.”

-Messenger of Manwë


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