# Dwarves and magic



## Thorondor_ (Sep 28, 2005)

Do dwarves have magic abilities or not? What evidences are there?

From the Hobbit:


An unexpected party said:


> The dwarves of yore made mighty spells,
> While hammers fell like ringing bells
> In places deep, where dark things sleep,
> In hollow halls beneath the fells
> ...





A short rest said:


> -Moon-letters are rune-letters, but you cannot see them, said Elrond, not when you look straight at them. They can only be seen when the moon shines behind them, and what is more, with the more cunning sort it must be a moon of the same shape and season as the day when they were written. The dwarves invented them and wrote them with silver pens, as your friends could tell you. These must have been written on a midsummer's eve in a crescent moon, a long while ago


LotR


A journey in the dark said:


> - The words are in the elven-tongue of the West of middle-earth in the elder days, answered Gandalf. But they do not say anything of importance to us. They say only: the doors of Durin, lord of Moria. Speak, friend, and enter. And underneath small and faint is written: I, Narvi, made them. Celebrimbor of Hollin drew these signs
> ...........
> Yes, said Gandalf, these doors are probably governed by words. Some dwarf-gates will open only at special times, or for particular persons; and some have locks and keys that are still needed when all necessary times and words are known. These doors have no key. In the days of Durin they were not secret. They usually stood open and doorwards sat here. But if they were shut, any who knew the opening word could speak it and pass in. At least so it is recorded, is it not, Gimli?
> - It is, said the dwarf. But what the word was is not remembered. Narvi and his craft and all his kindred have vanished from the earth
> ...


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## Celebthôl (Sep 28, 2005)

Yes i believe they did, but it was subtle magic, like the Elves, although no where near as potent, such as the doors they made, and the moon-letters.
Id say 99% of all magic in middle earth was of the subtle sort, as far as we've seen the only "big" magic with sparks flying out of people was from Gandalf when he was on weather-top or when he fought off the wolves in "The Journey South" or where he lights his staff.


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## Thorondor_ (Sep 29, 2005)

Another interesting quote, from the Atani and their languages, HoME 12:




> They [the drugs] had or were credited with strange or magical powers. (The tales, such as 'The Faithful Stone', that speak of their transferring part of their 'powers' to their artefacts, remind one in miniature of Sauron's transference of power to the foundation of the Barad-dur and to the ruling ring.)Also the drugs were a frugal folk, and ate sparingly even in times of peace and plenty, and drank nothing but water. In some ways they resembled rather the dwarves: in build and stature and endurance (though not in hair); in their skill in carving stone; in the grim side of their character; and in 'strange powers'. Though the 'magic' skills with which the dwarves were credited were quite different



EDIT: and from the Lay of Leithian:

Then Beren did Curufin release; 
but took his horse and coat of mail, 
and took his knife there gleaming pale, 
hanging sheathless, wrought of steel. 
No flesh could leeches ever heal 
that point had pierced; for long ago 
the dwarves had made it, singing slow 
enchantments, where their hammers fell 
in Nogrod ringing like a bell.


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 29, 2005)

All the quotes you provide clearly show that the race of dwarves did in fact use "magic", but they coloured it with their particular flavour, and it seems they were as secretive with the properties of their magic as they were with their real names.


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## Ingwë (Oct 4, 2005)

To be honest, I have never thought that the Dwarves can use magic. But the quotes that you post show that they can. But I think it is different magic than Elvish magic. Elves are Children of Eru, Dwarves are created by Aule. I don't think he can give them abilities as great as elvish ones. Elves are much more related to the Nature, to the living things and the Dwarves are related to stone and metal - unliving things. They can use magic but probably on the unliving things


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## Barliman Butterbur (Oct 4, 2005)

Thorondor said:


> Do dwarves have magic abilities or not? What evidences are there?



To some degree. They made maps the key runes of which could only be read by moonlight. They put spells on the pots of gold from the Trolls' lair to keep them from being discovered. And there were the toys of Dale "of real dwarf-make, some obviously magical." But this kind of magic was only mentioned early on and isn't heard of later.

I think it more intriguing to discuss what it is that is called magic in the first place (and dealt with in other threads). Obviously, even the most potent Middle-earth magic did nothing to prevent war and disease, or indeed much of anything in common life. There seems to have been both white and black magic, the white magic working most of all to fend off the black, as a kind of "early warning radar" system. But Men had to light beacons. 

At most, ME magic seems to have been a kind of natural ability that some races had to one degree and kind or another. The "higher beings" had it to a greater degree that the more "normal folk." 

I seriously doubt if Tolkien himself took the time to consider just what it was that he called magic.

Barley


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## Gothmog (Oct 4, 2005)

Barliman Butterbur said:


> I seriously doubt if Tolkien himself took the time to consider just what it was that he called magic.


In fact he did consider this matter.

Letter 155 To Naomi Mitchison (draft)
[A passage from a draft of the above letter, which was not included in the version actually sent.]


> [A passage from a draft of the above letter, which was not included in the version actually sent.]
> I am afraid I have been far too casual about 'magic' and especially the use of the word; though Galadriel and others show by the criticism of the 'mortal' use of the word, that the thought about it is not altogether casual. But it is a v. large question, and difficult; and a story which, as you so rightly say, is largely about motives (choice, temptations etc.) and the intentions for using whatever is found in the world, could hardly be burdened with a pseudo-philosophic disquisition! I do not intend to involve myself in any debate whether 'magic' in any sense is real or really possible in the world. But I suppose that, for the purposes of the tale, some would say that there is a latent distinction such as once was called the distinction between magia and goeteia


There is in this draft of a letter much more on the 'magic' of Elves and of The Enemy.


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## DGoeij (Oct 4, 2005)

Isn't 'magic' a way of explaining events or skills the observer is severely dazzeled by? I know 'quantum' is an equally good word nowadays. 

If I look at events like Galadriel's mirror or Tolkiens remarks about Hobbit's skills in moving about very quietly, I feel that's just about it. The special skills with which the dwarves made their strange devices could be called magic, because we cannot fully comprehend them.

I feel I'm not awfully clear about it, but it's the best way I could explain myself. I couldn't make up my mind about what to choose from the poll either.


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## Thorondor_ (Oct 4, 2005)

It's not _just_ science: (from the letter Gothmog quoted from):


> Anyway, a difference in the use of 'magic' in this story is that it is not to be come by by 'lore' or spells; but is in an inherent power not possessed or attainable by men as such. Aragorn's 'healing' might be regarded as 'magical', or at least a blend of magic with pharmacy and 'hypnotic' processes. But it is (in theory) reported by hobbits who have very little notions of philosophy and science; while Aragorn. is not a pure 'man', but at long remove one of the 'children of Luthien'


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## DGoeij (Oct 4, 2005)

See, I was unclear. 

I do not mean just science. I mean skills and talents as well. I can hold a pencil and perhaps with effort can learn how to make a decent drawing. But I will never have the internal talent or perhaps 'drive' of the true artist. To me, that's a kind of magic. Perhaps somewhat less magical, because I can at least use the techniques (pencil, paper etc.) to a certain extent. But still, magic.
I feel that the way our dear professor described these things, he meant mostly that. Although the 'magic' by especially Gandalf which as described in tLOTR (the fire making and the shutting spell) is more openly and perhaps a much different category.


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## Walter (Oct 4, 2005)

Barliman Butterbur said:


> I seriously doubt if Tolkien himself took the time to consider just what it was that he called magic.


Tolkien gave the matter quite some thought. Aside from the letter Gothmog quoted from in his post above, there is letter #131 (to Milton Waldman) which shows that Tolkien by his somewhat inconsistent use of the term 'magic' had caused some dilemma, and also his Essay _On Fairy-stories_ where Tolkien's view of magic regarding his sub-creation is probably best explained...


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## Thorondor_ (Oct 4, 2005)

I agree; I too think "science" plays a big part. We now that the istari didn't posses all their maia capabilities and had to "learn much anew by slow experience"; so, without their "full" maia knowledge, I wonder what magic they possesed at the begining (if any).


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## Walter (Oct 4, 2005)

DGoeij said:


> Isn't 'magic' a way of explaining events or skills the observer is severely dazzeled by?


James G. Frazer in his epochal work _The Golden Bough_ explains magic as the earliest attempt to explain (and to some degree control) things and processes that were otherwise 'beyond knowledge'. And as such he sees magic as the predecessor of religion and science...


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## baragund (Oct 4, 2005)

What about curses? Mim the dwarf cursed Glaurung's hoard in Nargothrond against anybody that tried to take it from him. The curse seemed to work based on all the bad things that happened to Hurin and then Thingol when they got their hands on that treasure.

Curses seem different from other forms of magic that could be explained away as unique technological or natural abilities possessed by one race or another.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Oct 4, 2005)

Walter said:


> Tolkien gave the matter quite some thought. Aside from the letter Gothmog quoted from in his post above, there is letter #131 (to Milton Waldman) which shows that Tolkien by his somewhat inconsistent use of the term 'magic' had caused some dilemma, and also his Essay _On Fairy-stories_ where Tolkien's view of magic regarding his sub-creation is probably best explained...



Thanks to you and Gothmog for lifting this poor Tolkien _zhlub_ out of his absymal iggerunts! 

Barley


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