# Gandalf's mortality or lack there of?



## henzo33 (Jan 11, 2002)

I have read LOTR and the Hobbit a good many times over. And it took a friend of mine who has never read the trilogy to get me thinking of Gandalf's mortality. I always believed that Gandalf was immortal, but when asked to prove my belief I had no literary evidence or logical explanation to support it. If anyone could please cite some passages where I could find the answers I am looking for or just give me a perfectly logical explanation I would greatly appreciate it.


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## DGoeij (Jan 11, 2002)

LOTR, Appendix B, look in the introduction text to the Third Age, concerning the Istari, or Wizards. 
The next I have out of the Sil (part Valaquenta), no quote just the information:
Istari were originally Maiar, the lesser gods, and therefor immortal. But they were sent to ME in the shape of men and thus it was possibe to do them harm or even destroy their body. After the death of his body, Gandalf (Maiar name, Olorin) was sent back. To continue his efforts in the defeat of Sauron and to ban Saruman out of the White Council, thereby becoming Gandalf the White.

That's how I got it from the tales, but maybe another NPW can shove me aside for a better lesson in the lore.


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## Lantarion (Jan 11, 2002)

Welcome to the forum, Henzo! 
Gandalf *was* mortal. All Maiar can be slain by other Maiar. Also Gandalf was given a mortal form in Middle-earth so he could mingle better with the people therein. The Balrog was also a Maia, remember, and perhaps more powerful than Gandalf, before he became the White Rider. 
So, when the Balrog and Gandalf slew each other, the Balrog's spirit was taken (presumably) to the Halls of Mandos. But Gandalf's was not, because he being the wisest of the Istari sent from Valinor had not fulfilled his quest; and if he didn't, no-one would. So the Valar gave him another chance, and gave him renewed strength and magical powers (eg. just kickin Saruman's ass) and in my opinion he was made immortal, or unable to be harmed by physical weapons ["For no weapon that you wield can indeed harm me", he said, when he met Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli in Fangorn Forest.


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## DGoeij (Jan 11, 2002)

There's the better lesson I metioned.

And I forgot to welcome you, Welcome Henzo.


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## henzo33 (Jan 11, 2002)

Thanks guys for the info and for the welcome. That quote from Gandalf about "no weapon you yield" is perfect I totally forgot about that. I will definately check in the appedix for that other stuff. I need as much evidence as possible as my friend is extremely stubborn.


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## Evenstar (Jan 11, 2002)

I believe Gandalf is immortal after his struggle with the balrog as well. But what happens to him after he goes to the grey Havens and Valinor. Does he stay with the elves for all eternity? I thought that Valinor was mainy for elves and only few exceptions were made (i.e. the ring bearers). Could one of you clear this up for me? Thanks.


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## Greymantle (Jan 11, 2002)

Valinor was for the Elves, but the Maiar existed before the Elves were even conceived of by any but Iluvatar. Nearly all the Maiar reside in Valinor-- the peoples and servants of the Valar. There are a few exceptions... the Istari, the Balrogs, Sauron, Arien, Tilion... I don't remember exactly what happened to Melian, I'm only halfway through my Sil re-read.
As for Gandalf... how do we even know that weapons could affect him before his death? No one ever physically attacks him (that we hear) directly except the Balrog, and as a Maia the Balrog is an exception. Gandalf was an immortal spirit inhabiting a mortal body... I think that both of his incarnations could be killed, but certainly not easily.
Something I've been wondering... did the Maiar take place in the Music of Iluvatar? What I remember is that the first reference to the Maiar is that they came to Arda with the Valar, and (I think) were numbered with the Ainur. It's strange to think of Gandalf, Radagast, Saruman, the Balrogs and Sauron having a part in the creation of the world... does anyone know?


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## Eonwe (Jan 11, 2002)

Ponitfex: where do you see the books say that Maiar when they are dead go to the Halls of Mandos?

Hi Greymantle!

The Ainur made the music with Illuvatar, and the Ainur included the Valar and Maiar. Although I can't find a passage (give me a few days) that says specifically the Maiar sang in the music, it says that the Ainur sang and were spirits of the offspring of Illuvatar's thought, and later it says the Ainur included Valar that came to the world, and Maiar.

"Some of these thoughts he [Melkor] now wove into his music, and straightway discord arose about him, and many that sang nigh him grew despondent, and their thought was disturbed and their music faltered; but some began to attune their music to his rather than to the thought which they had at first"

Since many nigh to him sang with him, I guess unless they were spirits equal to Valar also, they must have been spirits that later became Maiar or stayed with Illuvatar and never came to Ea.

A picture I get in my mind here is Sauron and the Maia that were to be Balrogs sitting nigh to Melkor, not knowing what evil is, and making their songs match Melkor's. 

As far as Melian, after Thingol was killed by dwarves, "Thereafter Melian spoke to none save Mablung only, bidding him take heed to the Silmaril, and to send word speedily to Beren and Luthien in Ossiriand; and she vanished out of Millde-earth, and passed to the land of the Valar beyond the western sea, to muse upon her sorrows in the gardens of Lorien, whence she came, and this tale speaks of her no more".


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## Greymantle (Jan 11, 2002)

Cool... thanks!  

I remember that hard-to-grasp, mysterious beauty that I found in M-e when I first encountered it... I remember being fascinated by the simple mystery of Gandalf. It's been years now, but the wonder hasn't faded, I see... so strange to think of that old man shaping the world before the beginning of time. It also makes the treason of Isengard all the more horrifying... sorry, I'm listening to Trevor Jones, always puts me in one of these strange moods. *Sigh*


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## Eogthea (Jan 12, 2002)

So let me get this straight (I know i'm new to the thread so bear with me), Gandalf is mortal before the battle with the Balrog but then becomes immortal after he returns to ME as Gandalf the White? Cuz, if he returns wouldn't he need a mortal body to do so and thus become mortal again though proving his spirit just the opposite?


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## Walter (Jan 13, 2002)

Dear Ponti, 



> *Gandalf *was* mortal.*


that, my friend, would very much depend on how You define _mortal_ or _mortality_ and I would beg to differ in any way...

According to "Webster's": 
_mortal_: 1) inevitably subject to death..., and 2) a human being...

Gandalf, being an Ainu, was - originally and basically - a spiritual being and as such _mortality_ would not apply, IMO...



> All Maiar can be slain by other Maiar Also Gandalf was given a mortal form in Middle-earth so he could mingle better with the people therein. The Balrog was also a Maia, remember, and perhaps more powerful than Gandalf, before he became the White Rider


as we know from various examples the Maiar (e.g. Gandalf, Sauron, etc.) can take physical forms, even those of mortal men, but does that make them _mortal_? I should like to think "No" for they themself - the spiritual beings - don't die. Even when their _mortal_ form is destroyed the spirit remains existent (I purposely don't say _alive_) and can even take physical shape again (e.g. Gandalf) and again and again (e.g. Sauron)...

P.S: "e.g." stands for _exempli gratia_


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## Walter (Jan 13, 2002)

Eogthea,


> So let me get this straight... Gandalf is mortal before the battle with the Balrog but then becomes immortal after he returns to ME as Gandalf the White?


He was not _mortal_ before the battle - he was a Maia (a spiritual being) who had assumed the physical form of a mortal man during the time he spent on Middle-Earth - and hence did not "become _immortal_" after the battle with the Balrog...


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## Nazgul_Lord (Jan 13, 2002)

*gandalfs mortality or lack there of*

Gandalf's extended life time is due to the elven ring he wears, which just so happens to be one of the three elven rings of power. Since he is in a "physical form" he can be killed and that body can die of old age, but he would live on, but the elven ring extends that bodies life span. So he is mortal, but only in that body.


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## Mula (Jan 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Walter _
> *as we know from various examples the Maiar (e.g. Gandalf, Sauron, etc.) can take physical forms, even those of mortal men, but does that make them mortal? I should like to think "No" for they themself - the spiritual beings - don't die. Even when their mortal form is destroyed the spirit remains existent (I purposely don't say alive) and can even take physical shape again (e.g. Gandalf) and again and again (e.g. Sauron)...*



But that would make humans immortal, too, because their spirits don't die but only go to Ilúvatar or somewhere.


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## Uminya (Jan 14, 2002)

Actually, Nazgul_Lord, Gandalf's elven ring was not mentioned as having any effect on his mortal form's lifespan. He was granted a mortal body for far longer a period of time then normal men had, so that he would have time to fulfill his Mission. His immortal spirit was only granted another mortal body because he was near to succeeding in his quest and he was the only Istar that was capable of doing so. Remeber that he said that his body was only temporary, until he finished his task.


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## Walter (Jan 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Mula _
> *But that would make humans immortal, too, because their spirits don't die but only go to Ilúvatar or somewhere.*


Good point, mula - and welcome to this forum, btw 

I am not really sure whether there exists a final statement about that issue from Tolkien himself, but from the context in the LotR and the Silmarillion men are defined as mortal whereas elves and ainur are not.

_It is one with this gift of freedom that the children of Men dwell only a short space in the world alive, and are not bound to it, and depart soon whither the Elves know not. Whereas the Elves remain until the end of days, and their love of the Earth and all the world is more single and more poignant therefore, and as the years lengthen ever more sorrowful. For the Elves die not till the world dies, unless they are slain or waste in grief (and to both these seeming deaths they are subject); neither does age subdue their strength, unless one grow weary of ten thousand centuries; and dying they are gathered to the halls ofMandos in Valinor, whence they may in time return. But the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the world; wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers. Death is their fate, the gift of Iluvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy. But Melkor has cast his shadow upon it, and confounded it with darkness, and brought forth evil out of good, and fear out of hope. Yet of old the Valar declared to the Elves in Valinor that Men shall join in the Second Music of the Ainur; whereas Duvatar has not revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the World's end, and Melkor has not discovered it._ --- Silmarillion Ch.1 Of the Beginning of Days


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## graen (Jan 14, 2002)

*Gandalf mortal?*

Excluding all the fine points of the specific definition of mortality, we do have 3 other examples of Maia and their "deaths" for lack of a better term.

The Balrog - we don't really get a good description of the Balrog's fate after his battle with Gandalf, but Gandalf doesn't seem to expect to see him again (even after his experiences with Sauron)

Sauron - Turns to dust, utterly destroyed

Saruman - Stabbed in the back by WormTongue with a normal blade. His soul seeks to return west, but is denied.

I think Saruman's is the best example of the mortality of Maia, having started of as an Istari as Gandalf did. Death was a possiblity.

As to the longevity of Gandalf, it had to come from some source other than his ring. There were 6 (?) other Istari who arrived with Gandalf, and none of them had problems with aging either.


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## Walter (Jan 14, 2002)

graen,

Your speculations about the "death" of some maiar are sure interesting, but being still a newbie in Tolkien's lore, I wonder if the Professor has actually written something that could suit as a proof for Your hypothesis that maiar are considered mortal...


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## lilhobo (Jan 14, 2002)

mortality to JRR is just having "living flesh"; elves can still die even if they can live for ever IF nothing else prevents it

PS. didnt saruman get his throat cut??


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## graen (Jan 15, 2002)

*Written proof?*

Walter,

Granted the description of the death of the Balrog is not clear. However, Tolkien's narration of Saruman's death at the end of LoTR was fairly clear.

I don't have the book in front of me, but I do recall that upon the death of his body, the soul attemped to return to the west, was rejected, and then disappated. How would you interpret that differently than as his ultimate demise?


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## Cian (Jan 15, 2002)

Tolkien describeth the 'new' Gandalf in _Letters_



> "But if it is 'cheating' to treat 'death' as making no difference, embodiement must not be ignored. Gandalf may be enhanced in power (that is, under the forms of this fable, in sanctity), but if still embodied he must still suffer care and anxiety, and the needs of flesh." JRRT



As sent:



> "By 'incarnate' I mean they were embodied in physical bodies capable of pain, and weariness, and of afflicting the spirit with physical fear, and of being 'killed', though supported by the angelic spirit they might endure long, and only show slowly the wearing of care and labour." JRRT



In the same Letter Tolkien explains about Gandalf's death that he had passed 'out of thought and time', thus it was Ilúvatar (The Authority) who sent Gandalf back: _"Sent back by whom and from whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time;..."_

Hmmm


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## DGoeij (Jan 15, 2002)

To straighten it out, mostly for myself: Both the 'old' Gandalf's and Saruman's mortal bodies where destroyed. But Gandalf was sent back again to Middle Earth to fulfill his task, whereas Saruman's Maia-spirit was not allowed to return west, after his mortal body was killed by Wormtongue?

This does makes some sense to me.


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## henzo33 (Jan 15, 2002)

Alright we have some great discussions going on here and I just wish we could come up with a concrete answer. In a nutshell, Gandalf is from another plain of existence and to function in and on ME successfully he must be in the flesh. His human form can be destroyed yet his true form, that of a livng life force, "lives" on. In my opinion, and this has been gathered from the discussions which have preceded, it seems that the figure of Gandalf and the term "mortality" cannot be equated with eachother due to the fact that "mortality" concerns itself with mortals or humans not with the Istari or for that matter even the elves. Since both "beings" (elves and wizards) can live forever, if no outside force interferes, then they are not "mortal". I have no idea what the term that coincides with the definition of their existence might be, but I do not believe the term "mortality" can not be used to define their existence. All in all I just wish "The Man" was still alive on this day to answer our many questions about the wonderful world of the past which he created.


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## Nazgul_Lord (Jan 15, 2002)

While this is true that it never actually says that the ring he wears affects his lifespan I kinda assumed it would since it is an elven ring and elves are immortal i assumed it would at least lengthen the life span in that body. Question, what happens to his ring when he is reborn as Gandalf the White?


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## Moonbeams (Jan 15, 2002)

I belive they all were immortal, but their form in ME could be destroyed. Sauron, when he was defeated by Gil-galad and Elendil, his spirit run away, and created a new form, and came back. Sauron was not dead, just disformed. Same thing happened to Gandalf, he did not die, he just lost his mortal "frame" but was given another one.


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## Walter (Jan 15, 2002)

*Re: Written proof?*



> _Originally posted by graen _
> *Walter,
> 
> Granted the description of the death of the Balrog is not clear. However, Tolkien's narration of Saruman's death at the end of LoTR was fairly clear.
> ...


graen,

well, yes, Your examples give some evidence that they "died", but that dieing and hence their mortality concerns - like a few others on this thread already have stated - only the incarnate form they had taken, but not their "true" - true, in the sense of Tolkien's myths - beings.

Even Your last example - which refers to the following passage I suppose:

_To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the west; but from the west came a cold wind and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing."_ 

tells us little about the original question of this thread: "Was Gandalf mortal or not?" or - more general: "Are maiar per se mortal or not?". The above passage may be interpreted as: Saruman was refused to return to Valinor. But it tells little to nothing about the mortality of his true being.


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## legendz28 (Jan 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Moonbeams _
> *I belive they all were immortal, but their form in ME could be destroyed. Sauron, when he was defeated by Gil-galad and Elendil, his spirit run away, and created a new form, and came back. Sauron was not dead, just disformed. Same thing happened to Gandalf, he did not die, he just lost his mortal "frame" but was given another one. *



When sauron came back did he have a phsyical form? In the movie they said he was unable "yet" to take physical form, but I don't remember anywhere in the book where he actually does take a phsycial form after he is killed the first time. (I actually wonder how exactly he planned on putting that One ring on since it seems there's no real way to use it's power without actually having it on your finger) All his "essence" I guess is all concentrated in the eye for the most part.


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## Walter (Jan 18, 2002)

legendz28,

I was thinking the same during my first reading of the LotR, but it seems I was mistaken. There exists another thread somewhere on this forum, where this question is discussed in more detail.

Oh and welcome to this forum


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## Sindarin elf (Jan 18, 2002)

I seem to remember Elrond saying something of the history of the ME people in FOTR - he was talking about the elves having immortal lives, and the men of Numenor as well, but as time went on they lost the secret and became as they are today. Mayhaps the wizards retained this knowledge from times past.


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## Walter (Jan 19, 2002)

Welcome to this forum, Sindarin elf 

The Dúnedain were never immortal but a much greater lifespan that that of ordinary man was given to them (e.g. Elros, first king of the Númenoreans, is said to have had the longest lifespan of them and he lived 500 years). Actually their wish to become immortal was what finally caused the downfall of Númenor...


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## Lantarion (Jan 19, 2002)

Yup, the greedy little buggers. Don't know bliss when they're staring it in the eye. 
But seriously, when Men (Humans) die, their spirits are first taken to the Halls of Mandos in Valinor. But nobody knows where they go after that; I suppose it is some unfathomable paradise, or some kind of unity with the world. But it's impossible to say for sure. This unknown event is called the Gift of Men, or the Gift of Ilúvatar.


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## Walter (Jan 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Pontifex _
> *This unknown event is called the Gift of Men, or the Gift of Ilúvatar. *


...which is also referred to as _death_ or _mortality_...


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## Eogthea (Jan 21, 2002)

Hum, so the elves and wizards are immortal? Just to piss everyone off again, the definition of immortal is unable to be killed. Ex. The Greek Gods are immortal. Yet, obviously, wizards (Saruman, Gandalf) and elves (Glorfindel) can be physically killed. You say their spirits cannot be, but do not most religions in this world believe the same of men? So the wizards, elves and dunedain have much longer lives than that of ordinary men, but they are mortal for they may be killed.


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## Aiwendil (Jan 21, 2002)

*Not the same thing!!!*

Okay, lets git this straight. 
Tolkien's definition of immortal-not dying of old age
Dictionary definition of immortal-"Exempt from any form of death, imperishable"

Maiar (as well as Valar) are (in their spirit forms) dictionary immortal. Maybe it would be better to say "indestructable".

Maiar in their human forms are Tolkien immortal; i. e. can be killed yet don't die of old age. 

This is basically what I am seeing;
Gandalf was killed (as an Elf would be). He did not finish his "mission" so he was granted a "second life", yet this time in the form of "what Saruman should have been". He basically became Gandalf the White. More power, more wisdom.

When Gandalf broke Saruman's staff, much of his power was lost. This resulted in his later weakness.

Sauron had passed most of his SPIRITUAL power into the One Ring. Hence when it was destroyed, he was also. There was not enough of the his power left to keep him from "Disipating".

So then comes the question "What about men's spirits?"
All I can deduce is that it is the Gift of men to live as spirits in their unknown "paradise" after death.

Men live their after-death lives in spiritual form, elves spend eternity in physical form.
In this way their "Heavens" are separated. Men in their paradise, elves to Aman.

My guess is that men spend their "after life" with Iluvatar, whereas the elves spend it with the Valar. Each race to the being they worship.


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## Eogthea (Jan 21, 2002)

Still, I don't buy that. Those mentioned above _were_ killed. And how do we know what Tolkien's definition of immortal was? I mean, I'm pretty sure you haven't asked him recently. (And if you have and he answered, you've got problems.) Perhaps Tolkien simply meant for the elves, wizards, and Dunedain to live exceptionally long lives with the elves and wizards having the option of reincarnation. Because isn't reincartion what happened to Gandalf and Glorfindel? And wasn't that what was denied Saruman?


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## TulKas Astaldo (Jan 21, 2002)

As I remember it the Maiar were created after the First Music and before the Second... I'm probably wrong, though

About Gandalf though, I remember he said he was growing old somewhere along the line... I don't believe the Istari were in Middle-Earth for a very long time, or at least not in one form, but rather that they were like short-lived Elves... Elves, when killed, would wait in the Halls of Mandos until a time such appointed by Mandos that they should return in the bodies of their children... I basically picture Gandalf as being a mortal Elf, sort of like a Dwarf with magical powers, who lives maybe a few thousand years... Then I suppose if he is needed in Middle-Earth again, the Valar will send him back.

For example, Sauron 'dies' some 3-4 times... First in The Silmarillion when he fights Huan in the form of a Wolf, again in the Drowning of Numenor, once again when Isildur cuts the Ring from his finger, and a final time when the Ring is destroyed. He comes back to Mordor (After a mysterious pass into Greenwood/Mirkwood EACH TIME... Suspicious? Dol Guldur is translated to 'Rock of Magic' or something like that if I recall, and it's basically Sauron's only outpost outside Mordor... But he strangely returns there after each time he is killed. First, when Huan kills him, his spirit leaves his body and flees into a nearby forest... The only forest so far north is Mirkwood, or Greenwood as it was called at the time. During The Hobbit, Gandalf leaves the party as they enter Mirkwood to deal with some secretive business about a powerful necromancer in Dol Guldur, which is located in southern Mirkwood. He goes there along with the rest of the Istari and a few other people, and it is later revealed that this necromancer was indeed Sauron... Sauron flees to Mordor, which was just previously refortified by the Nazgul with the retaking of Minas Morgul and the breeding of Orcs. He never does take a fully mortal form before the Ring is destroyed, and so I believe he was not powerful enough to survive the blow. One thing I don't get, however, is how, in that short time, the army of Orcs that assailed Gondor was bred... Those are some busy rabbits) and is reincarnated, usually with the help of the Nazgul.


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## Eogthea (Jan 21, 2002)

Well, I'm back and I'll piss everyone off yet again! What the hell does that have to do with Gandalf's mortality?


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## Walter (Jan 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Eogthea _
> *Hum, so the elves and wizards are immortal? Just to piss everyone off again, the definition of immortal is unable to be killed.*


Now where'd You take that definition from? Highlander maybe?  Well anyhow, it doesn't quite match what I could find in any of my dictionaries...

I think that Aiwendil has pretty much hit the spot with his post about some differences in the term "immortal" how it is found in dictionaries and how Tolkien used it...


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## FJURI1 (Jan 22, 2002)

I have always viewed Gandalf coming back as a resurrectional them from Tolkien. Gandalf came back stronger than ever, in a different form, since Gimli did not recognize him at first, and for a purpose: to defeat Sauron and save middle earth. So his body died, but his spirit came back in a new form: similar to resurrectional themes that many religions speak about.


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## ReadWryt (Jan 24, 2002)

Tolkien states in his letters that the term Immortal is an unfortunate turn of word in that, although the closest word he could devise to describe their state of being, it is more like "Serial Mortality" then Immortal, but the term Serial Mortality is not something that one would expect to hear one of his characters say...

In my opinion, and that is all the following is as I have not dug up quotes from the professor to back these up, only reached back into my memories of Joseph Campbel's teaching about the nature of Myth, Gandalf's return in a new Fleshly Raiment is a classic turn of events in a true "Quest" tale. He had, until his body's demise, been far too humble...and his decision to let Saruman be the leader of his order was an error that had been the greatest caused by his (false, or at least self-conscious) humility. He had to realize his nobility of spirit by giving his life for his friends and the cause before he could return as Gandalf the White to replace Saruman the White. I allways am in mind of Persophone in Gandalf's story...and Aragorn's tale is similar in that he has to overcome similar hurdles to eventually take his proper place in the world.


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## Grond (Jan 24, 2002)

RW, your post has made me review Gandalf's sacrifice in a new light and one that I hadn't considered through my many readings of the works. Thank you for giving me more insight and again making me realize that there is still much hidden from me. There continue to be new meanings to be found.


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## ReadWryt (Jan 24, 2002)

Bah! I did nothing!! I did what I allways do when looking at stuff like this, search my memory for another archetype that is similar and plug in different names to see if it fits at all. I could be WAY off base in so far as what Tolkien meant...

In truth the professor's words state it quite the opposite, implying that he GAINED humility in the bargain, or perhaps discovered it in himself...



> Gandalf alone fully passes the tests, on a moral plane anyway (he makes mistakes of judgement). For in his condition it was for him a _sacrifice_ to perish on the Bridge in defence of his companions, less perhaps than for mortal Man or Hobbit, since it was a humbling and abdnegation of himself in conformity to `The Rules': for all he could know at that moment he was the _only_ person who could direct the resistence to Sauron successfully, and all _his_ mission was vain. He was handing over to the Authority that ordained the Rules, and giving up hope of personal success.


 The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien #156


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