# Quenya or Sindarin......?



## vivi

I really cannot understand whether I should use Quenya or Sindarin....... Can anyone explain me what exactly is Sindarin and by what kind of Quendi (Elves) is used? ... I'm a bit confused at this matter......

i.e. Why Elbereth Gilthoniel is in Sindarin and Namarie in Quenya?


thanx to anyone who can help me....


----------



## Uminya

Sindarin is sort of the 'lower' form of Quenya used by the Grey Elves that didn't leave Middle-Earth to go to Valinor. Quenya is the High Speech of the Valinorean elves. Comparing the two is a bit like English and German, or perhaps Italian and Latin; lots of similarities but substantial differences.


----------



## Lantarion

Welcome to the forum, Vivi! 
Yes, as Cir said, Sindarin is the common Elvish language, used both by all the Elves and many learned Men in Middle-Earth. Quenya is used only as a ceremonial or poetic language (much like Latin); in the First Age, when Fëanor and his followers committed the Kinslaying at the haven of Alqualonde in Valinor and burned the ships of the straggling Elves following him at Losgar, either Elwë(Thingol) or Fingolfin, or some great King, declared that all those who would use Quenya as common speech would be held traitors. But many still used it (like in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad), although Sindarin became the common speech of Elves.


> i.e. Why Elbereth Gilthoniel is in Sindarin and Namarie in Quenya?


I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. I can only tell you that '_Elbereth Gilthoniel_' is Sindarin, and it means "Star-Queen, Star-Kindler'. And ' _Namarië_ is Quenya for "Goodbye". Please elaborate on your question, and I'll be happy to answer it. 
I personally like Quenya more, it's more 'Elvish' and more intricate and interesting.


----------



## vivi

Thank thou all for your valuable information. May Vala be at your side!

Actually I´m learning now the Quenya but I have analysed the chant to Elbereth Gilthoniel word by word! as well as the Oilima Markyria song!


Anar kaluva tyelianna!

By the way what does the last thing thou wrote mean! I´a starter!


----------



## Lantarion

Sorry, I'm afraid I just didn't understand your question:


> Why Elbereth Gilthoniel is in Sindarin and Namarie in Quenya?


Could you tell me what you mean by this?


----------



## vivi

*to Pontifex*

Thank you Pontifex for your interest in answering to my questions. What I mean is that both Elbereth Gilthoniel and Namarie are pronounced or sung by Elves. But why the first of them is particurarly in Sindarin ~which is a branch of Quenya~ and the second one in authentic Quenya.?....

I hope I have answered your question.

By the way.... Do you know any kind of a good "dictionary'' or something that contains the basic stems of the words in Quenya?
The only thing I've got so as to learn Quenya is some matierial from Ardalambion and stuff.
Do you know any kind of book already published.?

If so send it to my private e-mail address.


----------



## Cian

Sindarin developed from Common Telerin > descended from Common Eldarin ~ it's development involving much more radical changes than the development of Quenya from Common Eldarin.

Exilic Quenya and _Sindarin_ (a Quenya term) are different languages naturally "related" ~ generally all the Elvish tongues would be related to a common primitive ancestor, working backwards (going deeper back in time) on an imagined and complicated "tree" of Elvish language and dialect. 

Upon the return of the Noldor from across the Sea, they and the _Sindar_ ("Grey-ones") no longer understood each other, their speech having drawn too far apart during the long seperation ~ the Noldor more readily adapted to Sindarin, and it was noted in the Histories that twenty years after the arrival of the Noldor in Middle-earth, the speech of the Grey-Elves was most spoken even by the Exiles. And King Thingol's edict to ban the tongue of the "Kinslayers" helped hasten the end of Quenya as a spoken tongue of course.

In Third Age, thousands of years later, Quenya was still used in Middle-earth as a language of ceremony, high-matters of lore and song. Gildor and company (Exiles) were very impressed to hear the "High-elven" (Quenya) "given a go" by a Hobbit! no less, Frodo of the Shire. Quenya could still be spoken or used (by the Edain too), but Sindarin was the popular tongue of "daily use".

The examples you mention are examples of each tongue of course, others appear in the praises to the Halflings in "The Field of Cormallen", which include both Sindarin and Quenya. 

That's very lacking in detail, but hopefully draws some kind of helpful picture. Vivi, if you have found _Ardalambion_ you have found a site better than any book published so far on Tolkien's languages. That said, Tolkien's sources through HoMe and whatnot are a must for the interested.


----------



## vivi

*ok ok ok!*

Man, you covered everything! 

You couldn't be more thorough! That's it! 

Anyway.....

I keep up the good work and I study hard every day my Quenya lessons. I hope its worthwhile ....... but I'm still a starter! 

May Eru be at your side! (Varda actually)

     


Vivi or cpg


----------



## Taranir

*Finnish*

Well... Quenya and finnish... 
In finnish "Baby" is Lapsi... in Quenya it is Lapse...
...lassi surinen... (From the song of Galadriel) Lassi is a Finnish name and Surinen could be a last name... -Nen anding is very common in finnish last names... 
Yes Yes... Lassi Surinen isn't a name but it tells how much Q and F are alike. 
Lantar laituvalmet... Heh... Valmet is a tractor type and laitu is near to laidun=Fence (is it fence...? A place with horses and stuff... well a place where tractor could be found...  ) And Lantar is near to Lanta=****... U see ****+tractor+horses on the field.... HeHHEHHEHHHEEEE....

Sinulle osoitan kunnioitusta, oi Suurista Suurin... Professori Tolkien, sinulle olen paljosta velkaa....


----------



## Lantarion

*Eikö olekin kivaa kirjoittaa Suomeksi, kun kukaan ei ymmärrä!*

Yes, I have notived how similar the two languages are (although I may have picked better examples) . I don't think the Prof. was thinking of _lanta_, 'dung', when he came up with the verb _lantar_, 'to fall'. 
There are two similarities that have always caught my eye:
Quenya _tië_ means 'road' or 'way'. Finnish _tie_ means the exact same thing!
And Quenya _maica_ means 'sword'. 'Sword' in Finnish is _miekka_. 
The entire word and verb structure of Quenya is also related to Finnish. Both have endings and case suffixes, like 'of' (genetive), and the word order is the same in verbs.

Ah well, just a bit of trivia there. 

And Taranir, as much as it thrills us Finns to use our great language in front of people who cannot speak it, it would be more respectful if we did not. _Tuliko selväksi?!_


----------



## goofoofighter

I'm hearing of these great websites on the elven languages, but I have no clue how to get to them! Could someone PM me the address to one or something? I would really apreciate it, especially since I found that lately my dictionary isn't pure... and may have some words in it that don't exist in the languages as well as the Sindarin and Quenya words...


----------



## Taranir

*Re: Eikö olekin kivaa kirjoittaa Suomeksi, kun kukaan ei ymmärrä!*

I just wanted to add it to my writing. About Quenya and Finnish... I thought It would be nice to give a example of F. Didn't get any better line to include. You've been doing the same... "ios tietoa..." Antaa olla. En brassaillu... Ei tarvi heti teilata.
Kalavene-Ship of Light.
Kala=fish.
Vene=boat. Tehee... 
The former Qenya (Not Quenya) was more alike. Mature Q is not so close.


----------



## Lantarion

What do you mean? As far as I know, _vene_ isn't 'ship' in Quenya. And what is Qenya? 
I didn't implicate that you were 'showing off'; I simply noted that the comparison between Q and F, with the 'faeces'-example, was slightly inappropriate, and you could have used a better example. Ah, let us not dwell on such trivial matters._Eli sori vaan._


----------



## Taranir

*Fishing boat*

Joo... Oli vähän tyhmä esimerkki mulla... Sori munkin puolesta.
Qenya, the older form of Quenya. Prof. used this name of his elvish before it developped to Quenya. Or that's what i've read. And in Book of lost tales you could find this Kalavene. Christopher have translated it and gives it the meaning Ship of Light (=sun). And the "Kala" is of course "light". But this could be only in that so called Qenya. Immature Quenya. Funny though.


----------



## Lantarion

Damn, I have to get my hands on the HoME! Which volume is this in?


----------



## Taranir

*Vol. 1*



> _Originally posted by Pontifex _
> *Damn, I have to get my hands on the HoME! Which volume is this in? *


It's in vol.1 There is something about Qenya and that kalavene. In appendix you can find "kalavente"/"Kalavene" (And many other funny Finnish alike words). Check this Qenya out and say what you think about it looking more like Finnish than Quenya.

#Twenty three=Leminkainen.
Lemminkäinen is a Hero from Finnish epic Kalevala.


----------

