# Cultures of the elves...



## Confusticated (Apr 13, 2004)

Which elven cultures interest you? Which would you live among?


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 13, 2004)

My attraction to all these different realms mostly has to do with their leaders, whether I like them or not, and whether the kingdoms have an element of 'magic' about them.

I'm not too fond of the king in Doriath meself, yet I am interested in everything having to do with Doriath itself...most likely owing to Melian's presence.

Mithrim and Hithlum have never interested me too much...

All Elvish dwellings in Valinor are appealing, and so are all the lands Elrond, Círdan, and Galadriel ever set foot on...


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## Confusticated (Apr 13, 2004)

Oh Melian Melian! All you care about is Maiar and Galadriel.  No interest in Hithlum? Why I can't even imagine such travesty. 

Nevrast... I begin to wonder if I _ever_ really knew this. I assure you it was not a typo but a flat our spelling error on my part, I would even have pronounced it as Nervast, yes. Amazing... 


But thanks for pointing that out! 

The Sindar of Doriath is not a culture I have too much interest in, but I'd like to visit the realm. What I like about the Laiquendi is thier quite ways, lighting no fires and all. I'd also like to know which foods they ate and how the foods were prepared. 

The main reason I'd want to visit Mirkwood is not just to see their culture which I imagine was pretty unique, but because I want some of that King's wine! 

The best thing about Rivendell, I think, would be getting to hear ancient tales in the Hall of Fire, direct from some Noldor! But as they say, Rivendell is perfect for whatever you want, and there are elves around when you like them. I just wonder if they'd tell my companion to make sure I do not eat all of the cakes.


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 14, 2004)

> Oh Melian Melian! All you care about is Maiar and Galadriel.


Well, you know me... 



> No interest in Hithlum? Why I can't even imagine such travesty.


That's probably owing to me imagining Hithlum and Mithrim as grey, misty lands where about the only thing you see in whatever direction you look at are mountains. Quite dull and depressing to my taste. I need green stuff that grows!  (I know, I know, there must have been vegetation there, but still...)

I guess the Laiquendi, having lit no fires, would have to resort to eating raw foods? Vegetables, fruits and such. Did they hunt? I think it is said in the Sil that they did not. But it is also said there were wandering hunters in the Blue Mountains, though. If these were Laiquendi then they must have been exceptions in that they did light fires, how else would they prepare the meats? Although this may not have referred to hunting for food, but hunting beasts and orcs...
Perhaps the Laiquendi prepared sushi from the freshwater fish they got from the seven rivers of Ossir?  



> But as they say, Rivendell is perfect for whatever you want


I agree. Rivendell is so diverse, not least because of all the different races that made it their lasting abode.


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## Confusticated (Apr 14, 2004)

It is not stated in _The Silmarillion_ that the Laiquendi did not hunt. So far as I am aware and recall, it is not stated anywhere in HoME that they do not hunt, but I could be mistaken on this point.

However, it is strongly implied they do not hunt for food (in my opinion) when they call men 'Hunters of beasts' to Finrod. And also, of course, that they lit no fires.

I do not expect they ate meat at all, but who knows?

It is because I believe they ate no meat, that I wonder about their foods. Sure, vegetables and fruit and grains and so on... but how did they prepare them? Did they just eat the stuff of of trees and out of the ground, or did they mix foods and spices create a variety of never before experienced tastes like you might find if you eat Japanese food once a year.

You say there is mention of hunters in the hills... where? I don't know that you had in mind. But if it is Laiquendi, it might refer to evil creatures. Would like to see it.

I've talked with someone about this subject before so some things I mention in this post where first his ideas or inspired from one of his ideas. But we wondered why the Laiquendi lit no fires. I imagine maybe the Nandor never did so.. and would not be surprised if the elves of Cuivienen and later for a long time the Avari, did not either.

What are the uses of fires for elves? Cooking meat yes, smithies , source of heat and light... what else?

If elves could have easily existed without eating meat, they'd only need fire for heat, but would they really? Did the Avari and Nandor elves live where it was so cold that elves (mind you) would need fire for heat? Would such lovers of the woodlands burn wood without need? Did they use stone tools at least? 

Smithies - this is something seems to have only been learned of the Eldar in Aman, and the Sindar of the dwarves. I have often wondered if elves would have come up with this independant of outside influence. I tend to think not, but who knows? What do you think?

If it was perfectly natural that elves do not eat meat, then why did some of them do so?

Where elves set biologically to either eat meat or not, without ill consequence either way?

There is also the factor of Nandor and probably Avari in general, being perhaps much closer with beasts than Noldor at least. I don't doubt Laiquendi were, but I'm taking Avari too now. On the other hand, if it was a closeness with beasts and a complete absence of appetite for meats which kept some elves from eating the stuff, I would then wonder how elves of this sort were able to merge into, or be joined by a small amount of elves of a meat-eating culture such as Noldor.

Or did the Laiquendi just light no fires so as to keep hidden? And is it only coinsidence that it was the (apparantly only) realm of elves west of Ered Luin which did not light fires, and did lead a most simple and peaceful life closer than all others with nature, just happen to have avoided being ruined, and just happened to have the company of Beren and Luthien plus silmaril? Probably, so.  But I still take note of it.


Ah but Hithlum, home to the most valiant and feared by the minions of Angband.


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## Lantarion (Apr 14, 2004)

For me it has always been the Noldor of Tirion, the Teleri and the Laiquendi, primarily.

Since I first read the description of Tirion, and about the events that took place there which involved so many of its inhabitants, I have always been somewhat intrigued by their everyday life. Did they have seperate houses or was there a different housing system? Where did they get their food from, and what did they eat? What did they do for recreation, or as professions? Was there any social class-distinction, or did they live in a Marxist utopia?
These last two questions actually apply to all of Elven-kind in Tolkien's works, all the clans and sub-categorized 'races'.
And after I saw Howe's painting of Tirion, I was just overocme for a little while by the lifestyles they _must_ have led, in such a splendrous place.

The Teleri have always interested me in some way, as detached and solitary mariners and songwriters and singers.. They seemed to be a clear distinction from any sort of mainstream strain of Quendi, with their own (supposed) customs and ways. And after reading BoLT1 (and hearing the wonderful title they used to have, _Solosimpi_ ), where some additional infomation abot them is given, I basically fell in love with them.  Also, Ulmo is perhaps my favourite of the Valar, and the Teleri/Solosimpi were very closely connected to him (another great thing about the Teleri of Aman was that they had dealings with both Valar and Maiar frequently, and had revearing but friendly relations with them).

The Laiquendi really represent my stereotypical Elf: enamoured and living within the very texture of Nature. They were also somewhat secretive and mysterious, from what I gathered, and that facet of Elves has been something appealing to me ever since I read 'the Hobbit'. And I admire their light-footedness and ability to walk unseen and unheard in the forest. But there's someting about a clan of Elves living in wide expanses of forest that just fits perfectly for me.


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## Confusticated (Apr 14, 2004)

Lantarion said:


> For me it has always been the Noldor of Tirion, the Teleri and the Laiquendi, primarily.
> 
> Since I first read the description of Tirion, and about the events that took place there which involved so many of its inhabitants, I have always been somewhat intrigued by their everyday life. Did they have seperate houses or was there a different housing system? Where did they get their food from, and what did they eat? What did they do for recreation, or as professions? Was there any social class-distinction, or did they live in a Marxist utopia?
> These last two questions actually apply to all of Elven-kind in Tolkien's works, all the clans and sub-categorized 'races'.


I wonder similar things about Tirion, Gondolin, and so on. Especially their houses. What was an average house of Noldor like? Who all lives there, how many generations? Do the Tirion & Gondolin culture have elves that generally move out of mom and dad's place when they get married or reach a certain age? Did each house include a kitchen type area or were there public ones all over the place here and there?

Class distinction is interesting and I get an overall feel that there might have been such distinctions, but can point to nothing specific really. Though I am reminded of some information we find in this one essay called _Quendi and Eldar_... there was accusations or arrogance and feelings of superiority/inferiority was an issue among the elves, in specific Noldor vs. Sindar. From that I can only imagine that similar feelings might have happened to some degree at least among some cultures. This shows at least some form of distinction that puts some elves above others did exist.

Recreation in Tirion! I think most those Noldor were probably sharing their recreation with their proffession.  I mostly imagine artists. Various types of craftsmen and designers/engineers (for lack of better word), and builders, and chefs and tailors. But then also scholars and people to tend gardens and fields and gather foods. There is so much to be uessed at about exactly how their society worked rearding profession. I like to think the system was very unlike most human's... would be a horror to send shivers down my personal spine to think there was potential corperations among these guys .


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 14, 2004)

Nóm said:


> You say there is mention of hunters in the hills... where? I don't know that you had in mind. But if it is Laiquendi, it might refer to evil creatures. Would like to see it.





> _The Silmarillion; Of the Sindar_
> Now as has been told the power of Elwë and Melian increased in Middle-earth, and all the Elves of Beleriand, from the mariners of Círdan *to the wandering hunters of the Blue Mountains beyond the River Gelion*, owned Elwë as their lord; Elu Thingol he was called, King Greymantle, in the tongue of his people. They are called the Sindar, the Grey-elves of starlit Beleriand; and although they were Moriquendi, under the lordship of Thingol and the teaching of Melian they became the fairest and the most wise and skilful of all the Elves of Middle-earth.


Obviously these can't have been Noldor, and hearing of the river Gelion my thoughts immediately reached out to the Laiquendi, for some reason or other. Anyway, this was just a general wondering of mine...



Nóm said:


> I wonder similar things about Tirion, Gondolin, and so on. Especially their houses. What was an average house of Noldor like? Who all lives there, how many generations? Do the Tirion & Gondolin culture have elves that generally move out of mom and dad's place when they get married or reach a certain age? Did each house include a kitchen type area or were there public ones all over the place here and there?


I guess incorporating such seemingly trivial or everyday concepts into his works would in a way diminish the beauty of them. Especially of the Silmarillion which is much more 'elevated' than the LOTR or the Hobbit. This is not to say that I do not wonder about these things - because I do, very much so - and also not to say that I wouldn't have liked to see them mentioned in some notes outside of the story itself (like in HoME).



Lantarion said:


> Was there any social class-distinction, or did they live in a Marxist utopia?


As for class distinctions, families such as those of Finwë, Olwë and Ingwë are held as 'royalty'. And other Elves (Glorfindel being one of them I think) are also referred to as being 'of the house of princes' which I guess sets them a level below the so called 'highest' royalty, yet above the common elven sundry.  
I do wonder though, what made Ingwë, Finwë, Olwë and Elwë the 'originators' of these royal Elven families. Was it only the fact that they were the ones who had gone to Valinor as ambassadors, or was it because of some innate characteristic or quality that these individuals possessed? Do you think it is possible that these four elves are descendants of the 'original' three elves - the ones that were the first to awake - and so were entitled, in a way, to be the ambassadors to the Undying Lands?
Anyway, I think it was mostly the Avari/Silvan elves who lived in what you call a Marxist utopia.


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## Confusticated (Apr 14, 2004)

No, I don't expect all this stuff should have been included in the book.

The hunters... yes, I don't think they are Laiquendi. At this point there was no Laiquendi, just Nandor away east who would become them. 

I think the hunters must have been some Teleri who didn't make it into western Beleriand yet.

And it does calls all the above mentioned elves Sindar in the following sentence.


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## Sangahyando (Oct 6, 2005)

I have been interested in the land of Lorinand, which is Silvan and Sindarin Elves as well as Ossiriand and the Greenwood. But, what really tickles my fancy are the Elves of the Falas.

Sangahyando, great-grandson of Castamir the Usurper


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## Haldatyaro (Dec 6, 2005)

I'm so intrigued by the culture of the Gondolindrim because I'm fascinated by the ancient Eldarin cities more than their pastoral societies (basically I'm a city person). And partly because of Ted Nasmith's incredible portrait of the Vale of Tumladen.

There's something so incredibly beautiful about Tolkien's descriptions, I can see how Nasmith drew his inspirations. Also, my favorite chapter in the HoME series is "The Fall of Gondolin".

Gondolin was also a hallowed place that Ulmo himself promised to protect for a time:


> 'Now thou shalt go at last to Gondolin, Turgon; and I will maintain my power in the Vale of Sirion, and in all the waters therein, so that none shall mark thy going, nor shall any find there the hidden entrance against thy will. Longest of all the realms of the Eldalië shall Gondolin stand against Melkor. But love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West and cometh from the Sea.'


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