# How can Frodo be called a Hero at all?



## TolkiensGirl (Feb 4, 2012)

Hello folks! I'm new to this forum, and to Tolkien in general. I read the three LOTR books and watched Peter Jackson's films this year. Needless to say, I have become a quick fan. 


While reading ROTK, I was stunned and dissapointed when I read the bit about Gollum ultimately causing the Ring to fall into the flames of Mount Doom. 
Now I must ask the question:
Considering the inordinate amount of help received from Sam, and the aid of Gollum, does Frodo ultimately chalk up to being a hero in the end? 


I'm torn between believing Gandalf and Sam were the primary heros of the story.


Thanks.


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## Turgon (Feb 4, 2012)

I felt a little let down by Frodo when I first read the books, but I'm actually at a point now where I see his heroism for it is. Frodo bore an unbearable burden where nobody else could have took it, and he suffered the loss of his own self in carrying the ring. Which I think is a profound insight by Tolkien, people who bear the burden of care for such a long time do suffer a complete loss of self, and it's an awful thing to bear. For me Tolkien's portrayal of Frodo is a real psychological insight, so it kind of makes me giggle a little when uptight literary types say that LoTR is devoid of such things. Now I know that it doesn't sound very heroic, but really it is. Giving up your 'self' in the service of others is the very essence of heroism. For me Frodo managing to resist the Ring's lure right up until the end is one of the greatest acts of heroism in Tolkien's work, and my own personal opinion on his failure is that it was probably an act of mercy by 'providence', as to destroy the ring was to ask to much of him, which is why events turned out as they did.


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## Starbrow (Feb 4, 2012)

I agree with Turgon. I think Tolkien makes a point that evil cannot be defeated by one person, but it's through the help of multiple people, powerful (Gandalf and Aragorn) and not so powerful (Sam and Merry) that great things are accomplished. Just because you are helped by others does not make you less of a hero.


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## Johnny1A (Feb 5, 2012)

TolkiensGirl said:


> Hello folks! I'm new to this forum, and to Tolkien in general. I read the three LOTR books and watched Peter Jackson's films this year. Needless to say, I have become a quick fan. While reading ROTK, I was stunned and dissapointed when I read the bit about Gollum ultimately causing the Ring to fall into the flames of Mount Doom. Now I must ask the question:Considering the inordinate amount of help received from Sam, and the aid of Gollum, does Frodo ultimately chalk up to being a hero in the end? I'm torn between believing Gandalf and Sam were the primary heros of the story.Thanks.


 The thing is that the task with which Frodo was charged was utterly beyond the strength of anyone inthe mortal world, including (or especially!) the various Elven lords. As Tolkien explained at one point, the scene on Mount Doom is based on the final lines of the Lord's Prayer: "...lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil."As Tolkien noted, a prayer against something that cannot happen is meaningless. It is possible for a person to be put in a position that is just beyond them, beyond the limits of the strength of their mind, body, and soul. Frodo was in such a position in his Quest, it was _impossible_ for him to successfully carry it out.After all, he had already been unable to cast the Ring away even back in Bag End, remember? When he was well-rested, well-fed, and had been informed of the truth, he tried to throw the Ring into the fire on his hearth at Gandalf's suggestion, only to find that he had already put it back in his pocket. If he couldn't do it then, what chance did he have of doing it when he was exhausted by a year of travel, hunger, anxiety, and standing in the one place in all the world where the Ring is strongest?No, what makes Frodo a hero is that he carried the Ring, and resisted its tempting power, all the way to Orodruin! He only finally gave way when, as I noted, he was exhausted, hungry, worn, and in the place where the Ring was at its strongest. Tolkien said explicitly that nobody else in the world could have gotten that far without being conquered by the Ring! Not Aragorn or Gandalf or Elrond, not Galadriel or Faramir, not Sam or Gimly, _nobody_. The only people who could have done as well or better than Frodo were in Valinor (the Blessed Realm), and not part of the equation.Because Frodo resisted to the utter end of his strength, to the very limit of the resistance that was _possible_ for him, in the last need he was saved by a miracle. That doesn't make him less heroic.Heroim, _per se_, is somewhat moot in that situation anyway, because Sauron is a power outside the scale of Man or Elf to fully overcome on their own.


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## Troll (Feb 6, 2012)

I think Johnny hit the nail on the head. Frodo is not a hero because of his success or failure in his task, but because he put everything he had - body and soul - into his quest.

Putting your life on the line to achieve your goal is the essence of heroism.


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## Bucky (Feb 7, 2012)

Egads!

Movies first! ;*)

We CAN help you......

it WILL take time however.

I SO feel for you.

I really, really do.

Sauron is *NOT* a great big lighthouse...

He has a body & nine fingers in TLOR...

Read carefully....

Gollum says so.

First re-education lesson over. ;*)


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## Sulimo (Feb 11, 2012)

There are a lot of excellent points that have been made concerning how heroic Frodo was. One thing I believe is critical to point out is that one does not need to be perfect to be a hero. Hero's can be flawed such as Achilles or Sigurd or Turin using a Tolkien example, or they can be untainted such as Aragorn in the books not the movie. 

What makes them heroes is there ability to uphold and represent the values of the society in which they represent. In Tolkien's writing those are the traditional values of self-sacrifice, loyalty, trust, honor, nobility, honesty, etc. If you look at Frodo he exemplifies all these characteristics. It is also important to note that almost every other significant character in the series exemplifies these values as well. 

What makes Tolkien's writing so amazing is his ability to make such obviously flat archetypal characters complex. What I mean is that you never doubt who the good guys are, and you are never surprised when someone does something overtly heroic. What makes it interesting is when it deviates from the stereotype. That makes it real. That is why Frodo's inability to destroy the ring is so perfect. the entire series you have watched the master and loyal bond servant archetype playing out in its purest sense. Then at the very end Frodo caves and breaks characters and claims the ring for himself. 

Does this mean that he ceases to be hero; no. It only means that he is not perfect, and is flawed just like everyone else. He never abandons the heroic values that brought him through. He just fell short just like everyone else.


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## Troll (Feb 11, 2012)

Sulimo said:


> What makes them heroes is there ability to uphold and represent the values of the society in which they represent. In Tolkien's writing those are the traditional values of self-sacrifice, loyalty, trust, honor, nobility, honesty, etc.


 
In your estimation, are Tolkien's heroes considered as such because they uphold the values promoted by their social context, or because they uphold values that Tolkien considers to be universal goods?


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## Sulimo (Feb 12, 2012)

That is a good question. First let me state I am a scientist not a literary scholar, and what I am about to state is my subjective opinion, and please inform me if I am incorrect. I believe that while Tolkien, understood that each of these societies had values that they perceived to be universal goods or ideals. He also had his own set of universal ideals that he believed in. Those ideals are what we see manifested in the characters of the LOTR. 

As I understand it the issue of there being a difference between universal ideals, and socially constructed ideals is relatively recent. Especially in the terms of the bodies of work that inspired Tolkien. The majority of direct correlations between Tolkien's work, and others comes primarily from religious or religiously inspired works. Chief among them are The Edda, The Kalevala, The Red Book of Hergest and the Arthurian Legends. I think that is a testament that Tolkien believed that there are overarching universal ideals.


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## tspnyc (Feb 15, 2012)

Unlike the emasculated, cowering wimp in the Peter Jackson films, the actual Frodo Baggins is the only person in the history of the world who faced all Nine and defied them. Gandalf faced the Nazgul at Weathertop but makes clear he was fortunate they had not all gathered and their captain had yet to arrive.

Only Frodo faces all nine of the Nazgul alone and resists them.

That alone puts him among the greatest heroes in the history of Arda or any other world.

And this, following his wounding at Weathertop by the Witch King - where Frodo is the only one of his kind who doesn't quail and cower, but instead gives out with a battle cry and _attacks _the Black Riders.

Heroes exhibit selfless courage in the face of extreme danger to themselves. No one said heroes have to be perfect.

Jackson's decision to have Frodo be the only one who falls down quaking at Weathertop and is a drooling, worthless mess at the Fords of Rivendell was at best a disservice to Tolkien and his main hero.

I thought the chase scene with Arwen made for great cinema, but they could easily have found a way for Frodo. In the book their leader raised his hand, making Fordo dumb and shattering his blade. He could have done that to Arwen and the bursting blade could have sent them both to the ground, knocking her out and Frodo could have gathered his strength and stood up to defy them.

Ah well. 

Instead, non-readers will always see Frodo as far less the hero than he actually is.

As for the novel, in the end, the power of the Ring was thus that even the greatest hero of his age was unable to withstand it and gave in. This in no way makes Frodo any less a hero. But it is VERY hard to get across to a cinema audience how powerful the Ring is, how draining, how addictive, how hard to resist, etc.

Rather, than removing Frodo's hero status, his fall at the end makes clear that no one would have withstood the test, not Gandalf or Galadriel or even King Elessar. And all save Frodo might have fallen far sooner than he ultimately did.


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## Troll (Feb 15, 2012)

tspnyc said:


> Only Frodo faces all nine of the Nazgul alone and resists them.



With you 100% on the "Frodo is a badass" thing.

Just curious, but why don't you count Aragorn as having defied the Nine? He _did_, after all, set the Witch King on fire.


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## tspnyc (Feb 15, 2012)

Only five riders were present at Weathertop.

I think Tolkien did this on purpose. It sets Frodo's trial at the ford apart from those of Gandalf and Aragorn.

When I said Frodo is the only one of his kind, I meant of the hobbits. But Frodo wounds the Witch King with is 'magic words' before Aragorn arrives to chase them off. They were not used to be defied in such ways, as Aragorn makes clear after they flee.

This does not mean Gandalf or Aragorn would have not succeeded had they faced the Nine alone. But Frodo is the only one in the history who actually did so.

Yet another thing lost in the film version, how the terror of their very presence, even so high in the sky an elf cannot see them, can affect people and render the stoutest heart groveling on the ground. But not Frodo, even when all nine are right there in front of him.


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## Sulimo (Feb 15, 2012)

Where you need to tip your hat to Aragorn, and Pippin was in facing Sauron himself in the Palantir. That too me is as impressive as standing up the nine.


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## tspnyc (Feb 16, 2012)

Well, Pippin does so by accident and as Gandalf says, the hobbit was lucky he was not questioned "then and there". So I am not sure he withstood much of anything and do not see anything heroic in his actions here. But certainly he is a hero for his part in saving Faramir from certain death and for standing in the front files and slaying the troll chieftain before he could kill Beregond. So he saves at least two lives.

Aragorn, as the rightful owner of the stones faced Sauron on purpose and barely survived the encounter, so that is far more heroic. Aragorn knowingly risked his own life in hopes it would make his enemy jump the gun and launch the invasion before it was ready.

I find Aragorn's heroism is exhibited greatly when he takes the Paths of the Dead, something that was by no means a sure thing and a trial no one would have survived, save Legolas, if it were not for Aragorn's will holding them to the road.


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## Troll (Feb 16, 2012)

tspnyc said:


> Only five riders were present at Weathertop.


 Oh, derp. I never picked up on that detail; except when they were specifically mentioned as being alone, I always mentally filled in all nine.

I came across an article somewhere on the Internet dealing with the movements of the Nine in Eriador during the flight from the Shire; I should dig that up again and pay closer attention this time...


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## Sulimo (Feb 16, 2012)

I guess your right that Pippin in that regard was not heroic per say, good call. I just find it impressive that he survived an encounter with Sauron himself, and retained his full wits.


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## Arvedui (Dec 1, 2012)

The answer to the intial question may possibly be found in _Book IV, Chapter 1, The Taming of Sméagol_:


> 'Sméagol,' said Gollum suddenly and clearly, opening his eyes wide and staring at Frodo with a strange light. *'Sméagol will swear on the Precious.'*
> Frodo drew himself up, and again Sam was startled by his words and his stern voice. 'On the Precious? How dare you? ' he said. 'Think!
> 
> One Ring to rule them all and in the Darkness bind them.
> ...


As the story turned out, it is quite possible that the fate of Gollum and the Ring was sealed there and then. And most likely unintented by Frodo as he could not foresee the turn of events that would lead them all to Mount Doom.
But the way I read this passage now, Gollum's business with the One Ring was from that moment on tied to Frodo's task: to destroy it.


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## CirdanLinweilin (May 18, 2016)

I remember reading this and smiling.
Check this out:
"Tolkien later wrote that it was direct intervention by Eru, Middle-earth's version of God, that led to Gollum's "accident".


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## Alcuin (May 19, 2016)

Tolkien addressed this question. It has been much discussed: _is_ Frodo a hero? In his own eyes, he was not, and unable to resolve the conflict within his own heart and mind, along with the pain and injury he suffered in his trials, he abandoned Middle-earth, accepting offer “purgatory” for a while in Tol Eressëa. (Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam all died in Tol Eressëa, as did Gimli. It was not that they took on Elvish longevity (as did Tuor), but that they sojourned for a while with the Eldar while they were healed. 

I apologize for long citations, but I think they make clear Tolkien’s view on Frodo’s condition and state of mind. 

In _Letters_ 181 to Michael Straight, then editor of _New Republic_, Tolkien discusses *Frodo’s failure at the Cracks of Doom and its moral and spiritual implications.* In particular, he tells how any of us can find ourselves in situations in which there is not only no way to win, but in which we can only fail altogether. In this, Tolkien’s Faith shines through, and his belief in the providence of God:


> “Lead us not into temptation &c” is the … less … considered petition [in the Lord’s Prayer]. … [E]very event or situation has (at least) two aspects: the history and development of the individual …, and the history of the world … – still there are abnormal situations in which one may be placed. “Sacrificial” situations…: [that is,] positions in which the “good” of the world depends on the behavior of an individual in circumstances which demand of him suffering and endurance far beyond the normal – even … strength of body and mind which he does not possess: he is in a sense doomed to failure, doomed to … be broken … against his “will”: that is against any choice he could make or would make unfettered, not under the duress.
> 
> Frodo was in such a position: an apparently complete trap: a person of greater native power could probably never have resisted the Ring’s lure to power so long; a person of less power could not hope to resist it in the final decision. …
> 
> ...



He returns to this theme again in _Letters_ 246


> Frodo indeed “failed” as a hero, as conceived by simple minds… I do not say “simple minds” with contempt: they often see with clarity the simple truth and the absolute ideal to which effort must be directed, even if it is unattainable. Their weakness, however, is twofold. They do not perceive the complexity of any given situation in Time, in which an absolute ideal is enmeshed. They tend to forget that strange element in the World that we call Pity or Mercy, which is also an absolute requirement in moral judgment (since it is present in the Divine nature). …
> 
> I do not think that Frodo’s was a _moral_ failure. … Frodo had done what he could and spent himself completely … and had produced a situation in which the object of his quest could be achieved. His humility (with which he began) and his sufferings were justly rewarded by the highest honour; and his exercise of patience and mercy towards Gollum gained him Mercy: his failure was redressed.
> 
> ...




Immediately following this, Tolkien says,


> He appears at first to have had no sense of guilt. … [N]ot only nightmare memories of past horrors … afflicted him, but also unreasoning self-reproach: he saw himself and all that he done as a broken failure. … [He succumbed to] a temptation out of the Dark, a last flicker of pride: desire to have returned as a “hero”, not content with being a mere instrument of good. And it was mixed with another temptation, blacker and yet (in a sense) more merited, for however that may be explained, he had not in fact cast away the Ring by a voluntary act: he was tempted to regret its destruction, and still to desire it.



Tolkien then goes on to explain that Frodo (and Bilbo and eventually Sam) are permitted to go (or are sent) to Tol Eressëa to be healed, if possible, before they died. Frodo, in particular, and Sam, to a lesser extent, were suffering from what we now call Posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD), which Tolkien knew as Shell Shock. Bilbo and especially Frodo still suffered from lust for the Ring, even though it was destroyed.


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## CirdanLinweilin (May 19, 2016)

That is really informative and inspiring. Thanks a bunch Alcuin!


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## Êurlond (Sep 24, 2016)

Well, Frodo did kinda take the task to carry the ring to Mount Doom.


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## HarryTheWhite (Oct 9, 2016)

Hitler killed Hitler, does that make him a hero?


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## PaigeSinclaire88 (Dec 22, 2016)

I think the point of Frodo was to inspire hope in the hearts of the readers and the audience. 

When I was in the 6th grade and I had first seen the movies and read the books, I thought Frodo was amazing. Overlooking his many many flaws. Now as an adult, I recognize the importance of those friendships that Frodo had. And you're absolutely right, without Sam and Gollum the ring would never have been destroyed. But I'm a strong believer in the idea that Tolkien was very deliberate in his writing and as an adult you learn through life lessons who will be there for you and who your true friends are. And as far as Sam is concerned that's what I feel his character represents. 
I suppose Frodo is not the typical hero, but every hero has a side kick so to speak. Jon Snow has his own Sam, King Arthur had Lancelot, and I do think the moral of the story between Frodo and Sam is that if you find someone that is on your side and has your back dont lose them, no matter what. Also, in every hero's journey type tale the hero always has someone helping them meet their goal and potential. 
I will admit, I didn't like how Sam and Frodo's friendship was portrayed, only because it was a little too easy to say there was something more there than what actually was happening. I understand Peter Jackson's overall idea, but I dont think it came out how he intended. Mainly in ROTK.


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## Greenwood (Jan 29, 2017)

I think to understand the relationship between Frodo and Sam, you have to look at Tolkien's background. Tolkien was a veteran of WWI. In those years the Britsh Army still had a position known as batman. This was an officer's personal servant. Sort of like a military butler or valet. In many cases the officer and his batman would serve together for many years. Sometimes when an officer left the military, his batman would also leave the militarty and continue as the ex-officer's servant in civilian life. Some of these relationships were very close (but not in any initmate way as some try to imply). Sam was Frodo's batman - his servant in civilian life, his aide and servant in "military service" (the Fellowship of the Ring) and again afterward. The shared hardships and sacrifices of the journey to Mordor and bearing the Ring just made them that much closer.


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## Persephone (Feb 1, 2017)

HarryTheWhite said:


> Hitler killed Hitler, does that make him a hero?



Suicide is NOT a heroic act, though. He killed himself out of desperation and fear and his motives were completely selfish. Heroes act selflessly ... that is basically their description.


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## HarryTheWhite (Feb 14, 2017)

Narya said:


> Suicide is NOT a heroic act, though. He killed himself out of desperation and fear and his motives were completely selfish. Heroes act selflessly ... that is basically their description.


I wasn't being serious


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## Persephone (Feb 15, 2017)

HarryTheWhite said:


> I wasn't being serious


Just trying to make a point...


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## The Old Eregionan (Mar 2, 2017)

As I remember from TFOTR:
At the Council, Rivendell, Frodo says "I will take the ring. Though I do not know the way"
Frodo later, at Amon Hen made the decision to go by himself to the very Cracks of Doom to save his friends.
Frodo is a hero among the heroes in LOTRs.


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