# Does anyone know anybody who studies LOTR and the others as a religion?



## Diabless (Apr 21, 2002)

*What would an LOTR religion or cult be like?- just as a joke*

Does anyone no anybody who studies LOTR and the others as a religion?
Anyone who thinks that a cult-type eligion can be based on the books or at least certain moral codes? Make up yout own!
symbol- a Ring (like the Star of David or a Cross)
moral code- something like the ten commandments
there dose not need to be a religious figure
services are done in Elvish and are mostly singing
everyone is given an Elvish name- like a Hebrew name
Tolkien is read chapter by chapter (in English- bexcause that's how it was originally written) during services.
Frodo's B-day and the Ring's undoing day are observed
pointy ears or large feet are worn to srevices- like a Kippah or Talis in the Judaism or a veil in Islam
Three sects- 
those who observe hobbits- Hobbitism
those who admire the Elves- Elvism
those who do both or diff. collaborations
the very elite Entists!
Find other thigs you could make into a religion- I have not read the Sil


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## Gary Gamgee (Apr 21, 2002)

I'm strapping on my feet and getting ready to worship Hobbits. Where is the church D?


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## Diabless (Apr 22, 2002)

If you become hobbish then I guess the curch or temple-like sanctuary would be a hobbit hole!Some genuine ones would be in the country and some more modern ones in the city!


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## Persephone (Apr 23, 2002)

*I hope not!*

On a serious note, making a religion out of something that's clearly JUST FOR ENTERTAINMENT is not only ridiculous, but obnoxious. Take for example the Jedi religion. My goodness, that is a stupid thing. There are no such things as JEDI'S it's all in George Lucas' immagination and he's making a lot of profit for it. But to actually make it into a religious order is silly. Religion is a serious matter and should not be taken lightly.

On a lighter note though, Tolkien I think was trying to evade religion when he made his masterpieces because he made sure that there wasn't any mention of such in any of his work (s).


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## Tarien (Apr 23, 2002)

*!*

I would be one of those people at those services, if I wasn't the preacher!


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## Tarien (Apr 23, 2002)

You are entitled to your opinion, Narya, but this is not some silly fad, or fan club. This is something greater to the rest of us. 

Not to be exclusive and diminuative, but mabey, if you are a junior member, you just don't understand what Tolkien has done, and what his books are. To me, Holy.


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## Persephone (Apr 23, 2002)

*Sorry, maybe I am too fanatic about the religion stuff...*

Well, I wouldn't be here if I wasn't in love with Tolkien's work, I have been reading his masterpieces since 1991 long before the movie ever came to place. I even predicted the movie to come out (or maybe prayed for it to happen) because for me it's the most beautiful (and enchanting) stories of all time. I was mesmerized by Tolkiens' genius that many times I will imagine myself being there and being one of them. He's a great, great man.

I appreciate that you respect my opinion. I'm sorry for trudging on yours. Peace?


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## Legolam (Apr 24, 2002)

Please say the last four posts were Net Sarcasm (note the capitals!). As you all know, I'm very good at dishing it out but not too good at recognising it in others!

In a religion, you always have to have your non-believers that secretly wish they could be part of the cult, so that'll be me!


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## Tarien (Apr 24, 2002)

Mpphhh!


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## Mrs. Baggins (Apr 26, 2002)

I love Tolkien, but please be more specific in why you wish to worship his work. I just dont understand giving up your belief in a God.


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## Tarien (Apr 27, 2002)

I'm not! (God being Eru anyway....)

But mabey that's just me. I also wore Sunday attire and carried the Sil to the opening night of LoTR:FoTR! 

King to Black Knight- You're a looooney!


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## Diabless (Apr 28, 2002)

This was supposed to be a funny post not a discussion on wether making Middle Earth a religion is moral or not. I have a religion and I am sticking to it, but this is a what if question


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## I.am.Smeagol (Apr 30, 2002)

Yeah! This began as a funny thread, so lets keep it there. ;P
Could Smeagol be a Saint?


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## Kit Baggins (Apr 30, 2002)

Why not  ? Saint Smeagol has a great ring to it (no pun intended, honest!)  .

~Kit


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## tom_bombadil (May 3, 2002)

I think like the heads of the protestants have biushops and arch bishops. instead of them they could be valar and arch valar. and the people who took the services could be maia.
can there be a religus holiday called bombadill day?


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## e.Blackstar (Jan 30, 2005)

*Re: Does anyone no anybody who studies LOTR and the others as a religion?*

that is hilarious! Hobbitism! hahaha! *laughs uncontrollably* oh, that is lovely! Diabless, I love you. *chuckles again, gets herself under control* Weeeeeeee.

Maybe Bombadil could be an archdeacon of sorts? ya know, like martyr what have you (even though he ain't dead).

Hm...what would a follower of this religion be called? Hobbitests? Or would there be an all encompassing name? And then different denominations? Hehe, this is lovely! Muahahaha! *wanders off laughing*


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## Wolfshead (Feb 7, 2005)

*Re: Does anyone no anybody who studies LOTR and the others as a religion?*

Lord of the Rings religion, eh? Not really something I could get into, although I could probably worship Liv Tyler, if that counts? 

Personally, I think the Church of Spongebob would be much more worthwhile


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## Barliman Butterbur (Feb 7, 2005)

*Re: Does anyone no anybody who studies LOTR and the others as a religion?*

This whole issue deserves serious discussion. Were it not for the ridiculous and arbitrary sanctions on discussing politics and religion in this forum, I would have much to say. Unfortunately I am handcuffed, bound and gagged when it comes to those subjects.  

Barley


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## baragund (Feb 7, 2005)

*Re: Does anyone no anybody who studies LOTR and the others as a religion?*

Well what the heck, Mr. B! Let's go ahead and discuss. I think there can be a serious yet cordial discussion about this. If somebody gets mad at us and raps our knuckles, we just say 'sorry' and back off.

There have been some other threads around here that touched on on the notion of Tolkien's Middle-earth as being 'real'. (For a good example of this, check out the "Tolkien in Faerie" discussion in the Halls of Tolkienology.) Similar to the references to "Jedism" above, does anybody out there have any information on people believing Tolkien's mythology as being 'real'? Has anybody heard of people worshipping Eru Iluvatar and the Valar? Does anybody out there think that Elves are real and Valinor is a real place?

Let's set aside the 'rightness' or 'wrongness' for a moment. I'd just like to know if there is a movement out there that considers Tolkien's mythology to be Gospel.


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## Eledhwen (Feb 10, 2005)

This thread has been moved at the request of Baragund.

Here's a thread by someone who takes the whole thing seriously. I don't think they got any takers, though.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Feb 10, 2005)

*Re: What would an LOTR religion or cult be like?- just as a joke*



Diabless said:


> Does anyone no anybody who studies LOTR and the others as a religion?



I think we have enough religions in the world as it is, two of which are dragging the rest of us kicking and screaming to the abyss — but of that I may not speak, thank you very much Webmaster...  

However as a musician, I do love the idea that God created the world via musical themes that transmogrified into stars, moons, planets — and Middle-earth! 

Barley


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## Eledhwen (Feb 11, 2005)

And because of that, Middle-earthian religion would be full of songs, with words like "A Elbereth Githoniel.."

When I read The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings to my youngest daughter, I made the mistake of starting off by singing the Dwarf songs. I was then expected to sing every song in all the books. It's surprising how, after a few songs, it is quite easy to conjure up an appropriate tune.

I particularly love Galadriel's song in Farewell to Lorien: "I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew; Of wind I sang, a wind there came and in the branches blew..."

Is not en*chant*ment a magic brought about by chanting; and is not an in*cantat*ion a song?


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## Barliman Butterbur (Feb 11, 2005)

Eledhwen said:


> ...When I read The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings to my youngest daughter, I made the mistake of starting off by singing the Dwarf songs. I was then expected to sing every song in all the books. It's surprising how, after a few songs, it is quite easy to conjure up an appropriate tune.



Mistake? It's no mistake. Think of the lovely memories your daughter will have as she reads Tolkien to _her_ children, and tells them, "Your grandma used to sing me these verses and make up the most lovely melodies to go with them! How I loved it when my mother sang to me!" 

And yes, the whole root system of the words _cantar, incantion, enchantment, chanting_ etc., have to do with _casting a spell,_ which does indeed happen when one hears a particularly effective melody.

Have you ever struck even _one note_ on a musical instrument or a bell in a crowded room? Everything stops!

Barley


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## Eledhwen (Feb 12, 2005)

Barliman Butterbur said:


> Have you ever struck even _one note_ on a musical instrument or a bell in a crowded room? Everything stops!
> 
> Barley


Especially if it was the dinner bell  

Thanks for the lovely encouraging thoughts, Barley.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Feb 12, 2005)

Eledhwen said:


> Especially if it was the dinner bell



Well, you know me — innkeeper — food — dinner bell... 



> Thanks for the lovely encouraging thoughts, Barley.



Sure thing! 

Barley


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## Flame of Udûn (Feb 13, 2005)

Part of the Foreword to the second edition of _The Road Goes Ever On_ seems appropriate:


> Along with many others I often found myself desiring to vanish into Middle-earth, to escape utterly into fantasy! On the one hand this was a temptation making one unfit to live in this earth at all; on the other, the phrase Middle-earth is but a mediaeval way of describing our own world poised between Heaven and Hell. Is Tolkien's world of fantasy an escape at all, or do we therein meet ourselves, with all our problems? His books, as those of C. S. Lewis, include well-nigh perfect creatures, Elves, eldila, great lords and magicians. These heroes, I decided, were but paradigms of humans with a sense of destiny and purpose; and Frodo, the central hero, carries mortality in the shape of a lasting wound. The heroes of Greek legend were often real people of a past time, only with wings drawn in. To sum up this paragraph, I used to feel that the Tolkien dimension was almost a danger. I then went against this, and decided I would enter it at any time I chose, but with this golden rule (with this phial glowing on my desk?) that I must be able to emerge, to shut the book, and get up from the chair. If I can't, I will earn the disapproval of the author. He was an upright man in the real world, and had no intention of casting a spell on anyone. I told him once of a young man who thought he was Frodo. "I've ruined their lives," he said disconsolately.


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## scotsboyuk (Feb 13, 2005)

If civilisation as we know it were to revert back to the stone age and all our learning had to be rediscovered and someone chanced upon Tolkien's works, could that not be used as a basis for religious and historical fact? Without actually knowing what came before, why shouldn't people assume that it were fact and believe in Eru and the Valar?

Who would be the devil in this new religion? Melkor, Sauron or PJ?


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## Barliman Butterbur (Feb 14, 2005)

scotsboyuk said:


> If civilisation as we know it were to revert back to the stone age and all our learning had to be rediscovered and someone chanced upon Tolkien's works, could that not be used as a basis for religious and historical fact? Without actually knowing what came before, why shouldn't people assume that it were fact and believe in Eru and the Valar?
> 
> Who would be the devil in this new religion? Melkor, Sauron or PJ?



Then the discoverer would know the reason for the reversion: that we lived by a religion which posited that Man is inherently sinful, a notion that became a self-fulfilling prophecy, or the fulfillment of the beastly part of our basic human nature that we did not give ourselves the time to overcome. And the devil would have been we ourselves (as it always has been). 

Man has never been able to accept the fact that his nature includes a continuum of behavior that runs from the unspeakable to the saintly. So the Judeo/Christian tradition (to name one) says we are cursed by the Devil or blessed by God, blind to the fact that we do all the good and evil to ourselves.

Barley


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## scotsboyuk (Feb 14, 2005)

Barliman Butterbur said:


> Man has never been able to accept the fact that his nature includes a continuum of behavior that runs from the unspeakable to the saintly. So the Judeo/Christian tradition (to name one) says we are cursed by the Devil or blessed by God, blind to the fact that we do all the good and evil to ourselves.
> 
> Barley


 
Very wise words indeed! The world would be a much better place, in my opinion, if humanity would stop seeking to blame its failings on and credit its achievments to outside forces.

LOTR is actually avery good example of this principle. The achievments of the characters are their own, guided by a higher power perhaps, but ultimately it is down to the people involved to accomplish the mission they undertake. Gandalf may be a servant of higher powers, but he only directly intervenes when the situation is at its most desperate, and his use of his powers usually only comes when faced with the supernatural power of the Enemy.

Why should aliens have built Stonehenge or the Pyramids? Why can't we proud of the accomplishments of our anscestors without forever trying to attribute them to some higher power? This very point is what underpins religious belief, that one requires divine intervention in one's life. This isn't to say that higher powers don't exist, but I don't think we appreciate the full power of human potential.

Frodo and Sam battle against overwhelming odds to take the One Ring to Mount Doom, but they do so through their own abilities and with the help of their friends. There is room in their struggle for the divine and the supernatural, but they are not _the struggle_, they are merely a helping hand from that, which is outside mortal comprehension, and which is an underpinning element of being human. To have faith in a higher cause is something fundamental to all human beings, but it shouldn't be seen as being integral to one's life, rather it should be seen as basic part of what makes us human, that we can believe in something that is outside our world and that can give us inspiration to achieve great things through our own creativity and ability.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Feb 15, 2005)

scotsboyuk said:


> ...Why should aliens have built Stonehenge or the Pyramids? Why can't we proud of the accomplishments of our anscestors without forever trying to attribute them to some higher power? This very point is what underpins religious belief, that one requires divine intervention in one's life. This isn't to say that higher powers don't exist, but I don't think we appreciate the full power of human potential.
> 
> ...To have faith in a higher cause is something fundamental to all human beings, but it shouldn't be seen as being integral to one's life, rather it should be seen as basic part of what makes us human, that we can believe in something that is outside our world and that can give us inspiration to achieve great things through our own creativity and ability.



Wise words yourself! Would that more people shared that view! Let's go down to the local pub (of course if you're ever in Bree, come to the Pony) and together solve the problems of the world — between the two of us we should have it done by closing time!  

(*An aside:* there are some fascinating books by Michael Shermer and Shelley Taylor — writing as separate authors in their own books — Shermer is a scientist and a columnist for Scientific American; Taylor was a professor of psychiatry at UCLA. The thrust of their writing posits that [1] our brain hardwiring is genetically structured so that in our interaction with nature, one of the conclusions we come to [whether true or false] is a belief in higher powers. It stays with us because it has survival value. [2] We need to believe in such things because we could not otherwise bear up under the fierceness of ordinary reality [much of which we bring down on our own heads]. I believe it was Miguel de Cervantes who said that the maddest madness is to see the world as it is, rather than as it should be...)

Barley


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## scotsboyuk (Feb 15, 2005)

@Barely

Those authors sound rather interesting, thank you.


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## Eledhwen (Feb 15, 2005)

Even in LotR, the evil originates from a 'heavenly' being; but it would have no power at all, were it not for the choices of those in whose ears the evil words were whispered.

I remember Dumbledore said something of the order that 'it is our choices that make us who we are' in The Chamber of Secrets. But that would be another religion entirely


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## scotsboyuk (Feb 15, 2005)

Eledhwen said:


> Even in LotR, the evil originates from a 'heavenly' being; but it would have no power at all, were it not for the choices of those in whose ears the evil words were whispered.


 
So it is with religions in the real world, it is the actions of human beings that create or oppose evil. LOTR contains a struggle between good and evil, but it is a struggle that is largely determined by the actions of fallible mortals (and immortals), not by the direct intervention of divine powers.


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