# Orc sunstroke



## reem (Feb 9, 2003)

... i'm so annoying aren't i? well, don't worry, i'll soon finish the Hobbit and go terrorise the LOTR guild and thou shalt be free-eth of me-eth!
anyway, what does the sun exactly do to orcs? trolls turn into stone...but orcs? sun strokes? dehydration? an ugly tan??
reem


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## BlackCaptain (Feb 9, 2003)

Thier kinda just really afraid of it. Too much light like, blinds them. Its like staying in a dungeon for 100,000 years, and coming out into the sun. Its gonna be really really bright


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## reem (Feb 12, 2003)

...gee...talk about 'non' daramtic!
i must admit that i had a more dramatic picture in mind...their fear sounded too acute for something as plain as fear of brightness...
reem


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## LordOfMoria (Feb 15, 2003)

And its like Gollum too. In TTT he hated the light! He was in that dark cave for many many years!!!


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## LordOfMoria (Feb 15, 2003)

The ones in Moria hated to travel in the light (see TTT - The Uruk-Hai- for quote)


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## reem (Feb 15, 2003)

so it's just plain dislike of the sun?...bummer. 
anyway, i've just started rereading the LORT FOTR and i'll be able to go through the whole thing again and see for myself.
thanks anyway everyone
reem


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## olorin the maia (Feb 16, 2003)

It is a mark of evil things bred by Morgoth during the Great Darkness that they cannot abide sunlight. In the Hobbit, Bilbo's trolls must be underground before daybreak, or they turn to stone. The goblins of the Hobbit are described as being weak and wobbly in the sunlight.
In LOTR, the new race of Uruk-Hai, bred of Men and orcs by Saruman, did not have this fear of light, were much larger, stronger, and deadlier fighters than the orcs. But it is not a 'learned' fear of light, it is more 'instinct', if you will, that causes the orcs to prefer darkness.


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## Wolfshead (Feb 17, 2003)

Orcs are evil. Evil is associated with darkness, good with sunlight. So the Orcs don't like the sun because it is good. That was an alternative idea, olorin's is right. It's to do with living underground.


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## reem (Feb 19, 2003)

so gollum didn't like the sunlight because he turned evil in the end? but then why does he hate the moonlight? it doesn't affect the orcs, and they were born evil. 
reem


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## Wolfshead (Feb 19, 2003)

I think Gollum just doesn't like the light. Largely due to living in a cave with no light for 600 years. One could assume he had got used to the dark.


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## reem (Feb 21, 2003)

but to the extent that ge feel actual physical pain?? but he doesn't mind fire light, does he? 
reem


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## Theoden_king (Feb 21, 2003)

All his life he didn't like light, it says in the book his eyes were always pointing downwards and he forgot about the sun untill a reflection of it went in his eyes then he looked up at it a last time and fled to the misty mountains


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## reem (Feb 22, 2003)

i just reached this part where they talk about the capture of Gollum and his stay with the elves of mirkwood. they used to take him out in 'fair weather' to climb trees. i don't think they took him out during nighttime when the forest would most likely be dangerous. and what about the fire light??
...am i repeatin the same questions over and over again?? annoying isn't it! hehe!
reem


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## olorin the maia (Feb 23, 2003)

Some of JRRT's themes are a bit difficult to sustain. Gollum's hatred and fear of sunlight, as you point out, doesn't hold up when the part about his being let out of the Elves' caves/dungeons in Mirkwood comes up. He was let out in order to climb the trees and feel the wind on his face, if I remember the passage.
I think the idea was to communicate that the Elves were trying to rehabilitate Gollum, at Gandalf's bidding. Gollum was able to lead Frodo and Sam in daylight when he had to, although he much preferred the cover of darkness.
The light of day was hard on him, and made him irritable, but didn't incapacitate him the way it did the orcs.
He didn't much care for the full Moon, fair Ithil, either.


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## FrankSinatra (Feb 27, 2003)

*Light*

Ever tried looking at the lightbulb when you first switch it on in the morning?

Imagine this, after a few years with no light.

Would be painful, one would imagine.


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## LadyDernhelm (Feb 28, 2003)

Yeah, I think the bottom line is - they were just sensitive.

But I think the nasty tan was a better idea. ;-)


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## reem (Mar 1, 2003)

here's another question for you then. now assuming that the correct answer is thta creatures of evil don't like the light because evil is associated with darkness, why isn't it the other way arround too? i mean, why do elves like the darkness themselves? or rather, the stars and Varda. it's true the stars were the first thing that they saw, but if tolkien was following the typical kind of symbolism for good and evil then why this??
reem
(i am most probably wrong in most of what i say and u can probably give me a million refferences proving how wrong and silly this new question is...but humer me nonetheless!)


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## LadyDernhelm (Mar 1, 2003)

I personally don't consider the stars as "dark". They dispel dark, to my mind. They're beautiful and very Elvish, if you take my meaning. ;-) And besides, the dark - not the Dark - can be a very good thing sometimes.


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## Mirabella (Mar 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by reem _
> *i mean, why do elves like the darkness themselves? or rather, the stars and Varda. it's true the stars were the first thing that they saw, but if tolkien was following the typical kind of symbolism for good and evil then why this??
> *



I think you might have answered your own question, reem  It was the starlight that Elves loved, not the darkness. Indeed, the early Elves feared the darkness, at least until Orome came among them and began to tell them of Valinor and the Light of the Trees. It was the desire to see the Light of Aman and leave the darkness of ME that led to the Elves' migration into the West.


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## reem (Mar 6, 2003)

and yet, dispite that, the night has always been a sinister symbol when evil/crimes are committed. it's in the sunlight and morning when all good blooms and blah blah. tolkien gave the impression that all good things are beautiful and all evel things are ugly...there are, however, some instances when good and beatiful things are corrupted and then they turn evil and ugly. winter is also seen as a bad thing where summer and spring are good. all these steriotype concepts don't add up when he makes night-loving elves! see what i mean?
reem


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## jallan (Mar 15, 2003)

From _Sauron Defeated_ (HoME 9), “The Notion Club Papers (Part Two)”, “Major Divergences in Earlier Versions of The Notion Club Papers (Part Two)”:


> Again the A and B forms seem unconnected; but there is a word that often occurs and is nearly the same in both: _lōme_ in A, and _lōmi_ in B. That means “night”, but as it comes though to me I feel that it has no evil connotations; it is a word of peace and beauty and has none of the associations of fear or groping that, say, “dark” has for us. For the evil sense I do not know the A word. In B and its derivatives are many words or stems, such as _dolgu_, _ugru_, _nūlu_.


So _night_ alone is not connected with evil, and words meaning _darkness_ with evil connotations are found, perhaps, more among Men than among Elves.


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