# What do you think of Míriel Serinde?



## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Oct 16, 2022)

Míriel Serinde is one of my favourite characters in The Silmarillion, and probably my most favoured of the Eldar.

What is your opinion of her? Do you think she made the right decision to remain in the Halls of Mandos and refuse re-embodiment (several times, apparently) until Finwe died? Do you think if she had returned to life, she would have found the same sense of solace and tranquility that she found in the Halls of Mandos?

Also, what do you think of her choice to remain with Vaire after she was re-embodied? How do you think her time with one of the Valie would have increased her knowledge of the world, and influenced her thoughts on the deeds of the House of Finwe?​


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 16, 2022)

Nienna Qalme-Tári said:


> Míriel Serinde is one of my favourite characters in The Silmarillion, and probably my most favoured of the Eldar.
> 
> What is your opinion of her? Do you think she made the right decision to remain in the Halls of Mandos and refuse re-embodiment (several times, apparently) until Finwe died? Do you think if she had returned to life, she would have found the same sense of solace and tranquility that she found in the Halls of Mandos?​


We know too little to judge for sure, but some of Tolkien's other commentary implied a good chunk of her motivation was pride (at least after the initial request). So...I am a touch frustrated with her for that. She and her son are, unfortunately, both prideful.


Nienna Qalme-Tári said:


> Also, what do you think of her choice to remain with Vaire after she was re-embodied? How do you think her time with one of the Valie would have increased her knowledge of the world, and influenced her thoughts on the deeds of the House of Finwe?


I hope it increased her wisdom. I think returning to her people would have been extremely awkward for her, not the least of which being Indis and Finarfin. Elves, as you may know, almost never get remarried and even when they do the spouse who died first usually stays dead.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Oct 17, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> We know too little to judge for sure, but some of Tolkien's other commentary implied a good chunk of her motivation was pride (at least after the initial request). So...I am a touch frustrated with her for that. She and her son are, unfortunately, both prideful.


Yet Míriel is tempered with a "gentle disposition", if I remember correctly - something that thus sets her apart from Féanor, since he does not display such trait.


ZehnWaters said:


> I hope it increased her wisdom.


I am sure it would. She is the only living Elf to dwell in the House of Vaire, after all.


ZehnWaters said:


> I think returning to her people would have been extremely awkward for her, not the least of which being Indis and Finarfin. Elves, as you may know, almost never get remarried and even when they do the spouse who died first usually stays dead.


That is true. Also, if I remember correctly, Míriel herself did not wish to return to her people after she was re-embodied. She went straight into the service of Vaire and dwelt with her there...


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 17, 2022)

Nienna Qalme-Tári said:


> Yet Míriel is tempered with a "gentle disposition", if I remember correctly - something that thus sets her apart from Féanor, since he does not display such trait.


Perhaps. Míriel hasn't ever been my focus. I'll need to go back and re-read the information on her.


Nienna Qalme-Tári said:


> I am sure it would. She is the only living Elf to dwell in the House of Vaire, after all.
> 
> That is true. Also, if I remember correctly, Míriel herself did not wish to return to her people after she was re-embodied. She went straight into the service of Vaire and dwelt with her there...


Yeah. I'm unsure what she would have done among the Noldor as she'd been gone for so long and was no longer their queen. It's also possible some blamed her for what happened (it was her son who started the Rebellion and engaged in the Kinslaying, and if she'd been around to raise him he might not have).


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Oct 17, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> It's also possible some blamed her for what happened (it was her son who started the Rebellion and engaged in the Kinslaying, and if she'd been around to raise him he might not have).


Yet Míriel faded of her own free will, and though her will to not return was adamant, the opinions of others may still have remained, whether for or against.

E'en Míriel herself spoke to Finwe that she wished to be held "blameless" in all that "may come after".


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 17, 2022)

Nienna Qalme-Tári said:


> Yet Míriel faded of her own free will, and though her will to not return was adamant, the opinions of others may still have remained, whether for or against.
> 
> E'en Míriel herself spoke to Finwe that she wished to be held "blameless" in all that "may come after".


She can wish it all she wants people are going to blame, or not blame, her regardless. Me? I think she holds some blame, though clearly not all (or even most). She could not have predicted what would have happened, but WAS warned that it would be detrimental to her son and husband.


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## Sons of the Woodland King (Oct 17, 2022)

I've always found Miriel's story to be peculiar. I'm sure the psychology of Elves would be different from that of Men, but I've always puzzled over what could have driven Miriel to simply fade away after giving birth to Feanor. From how it was described it seemed to be almost a form of death that Elves otherwise cannot experience due to their immortality, but it's also hard not to view it as a bit defeatist. After all, most mothers would literally fight to the death to stay with their children and not leave them (or their husbands) alone in the world. Could she not have pushed harder and found the strength to keep living? I don't think her "willful dying" necessarily made Miriel a bad elf or mother, but it's very sad.

As a mother myself, I understand that pregnancy and childbirth are extremely taxing on the body and spirit, but the work of child rearing surpasses both by leagues and league. Miriel's presence, if she chose to live on, would have certainly made an incredible difference in Feanor's disposition, life, and choices, which would have in turn altered the history of the world in almost mind-boggling ways. But isn't that the way of all great tragedies? One choice, right or wrong, could have unfathomable consequences, and maybe that's the whole point of her role and storyline.

By the time Finwe and Feanor died and she returned to life, too much damage has been done already that could not be unmade, so it's hard to care much about what she chose to do with her restored life. It was a bit of a "too little, too late" situation, unfortunately.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Oct 17, 2022)

Sons of the Woodland King said:


> I don't think her "willful dying" necessarily made Miriel a bad elf or mother, but it's very sad.


Well said - that element of sorrow is _exactly _what makes her my most favoured of the Eldar.


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 17, 2022)

Sons of the Woodland King said:


> I've always found Miriel's story to be peculiar. I'm sure the psychology of Elves would be different from that of Men, but I've always puzzled over what could have driven Miriel to simply fade away after giving birth to Feanor. From how it was described it seemed to be almost a form of death that Elves otherwise cannot experience due to their immortality, but it's also hard not to view it as a bit defeatist. After all, most mothers would literally fight to the death to stay with their children and not leave them (or their husbands) alone in the world. Could she not have pushed harder and found the strength to keep living? I don't think her "willful dying" necessarily made Miriel a bad elf or mother, but it's very sad.


My understanding is it wasn't sorrow but complete and utter exhaustion. A kind that likely would have killed any human but left her permanently damaged beyond repair. The process of child-conceiving and child-bearing is different for elves. So that likely has to do with it as well.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Oct 17, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> My understanding is it wasn't sorrow but complete and utter exhaustion. A kind that likely would have killed any human but left her permanently damaged beyond repair. The process of child-conceiving and child-bearing is different for elves. So that likely has to do with it as well.


I would have to agree. Many of the customs of the Eldar are quite different, if not vastly so, to the Edain.


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## Sons of the Woodland King (Oct 17, 2022)

Thank you, @ZehnWaters! I'd hate to make a generalization, but at least from my own experience, I wager that all/most women are permanently altered/damaged after giving birth--in varying degrees of course. At the very least, the process literally leaves scars! It probably isn't the same thing as with Elves (as you said), but I wonder if, through Miriel's story, Tolkien also meant to pay tribute to the sacrifice of mothers in bringing children to the world. I don't believe he made character or plot choices on a whim, plus his own beloved wife gave him four children!

That being said, is it written anywhere what child-bearing was like for Elves, or how if it differentiates from Men? I would love to see it if it exists!


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Oct 17, 2022)

Sons of the Woodland King said:


> through Miriel's story


Remember that Féanáro was no ordinary child. Other Elven mothers had not suffered the same fate as Míriel, considering that the fire of Féanáro was so great and poignant in its splendour and ardent magnificence that e'en Míriel, one of the greatest of Noldorin kin, could take no more.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Oct 17, 2022)

Sons of the Woodland King said:


> Thank you, @ZehnWaters! I'd hate to make a generalization, but at least from my own experience, I wager that all/most women are permanently altered/damaged after giving birth--in varying degrees of course. At the very least, the process literally leaves scars! It probably isn't the same thing as with Elves (as you said), but I wonder if, through Miriel's story, Tolkien also meant to pay tribute to the sacrifice of mothers in bringing children to the world. I don't believe he made character or plot choices on a whim, plus his own beloved wife gave him four children!
> 
> That being said, is it written anywhere what child-bearing was like for Elves, or how if it differentiates from Men? I would love to see it if it exists!


Here's a little bit from The Nature of Middle Earth that talks about elf childbirth, I haven't read the whole book yet but it's very interesting 



> During all this time the parents are aware of the growth of the unborn
> child, and live in much longer and more deeply-felt joy and expectation; for
> childbirth is not among the Eldar accompanied by pain. It is
> nonetheless not an easy or light matter, for it is achieved by a much greater
> ...



And some more about post-birth:


> After a child-birth a “time of repose” was always taken, and this again tended to increase in length. This time (being concerned mainly with bodily refreshment) was reckoned in growth-years or olmendi. It was seldom less than one olmen (or 12 löar); but it might be much more. And usually (but not necessarily) it was progressively increased after each birth of a continuous Onnalúmë, in such series as: löar 12/18/24/30/36 or often 12/24/36/48/60; or in the case of smaller families: 12/30/48/66. But these series are only averages, or formulated examples. In practice the intervals were more variable. They normally occupied some exact number of löar, since conception (and therefore birth 9 löar later) was nearly always in Spring; but they were not necessarily in exact twelves or sixes, nor in regular progression.


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## Sons of the Woodland King (Oct 17, 2022)

Thank you so much for the info, @Erestor Arcamen ! A part of me always suspected that the Elves were spared the pains of childbirth (lucky buggers aren't blessed enough, are they? lol), but I'm glad to see it confirmed! In Catholic tradition, the Virgin Mary did not experience pain of childbirth on account of her lack of original sin, so I'm not surprised that Tolkien included that concept in his lore as well. I have so many more questions and thoughts on this topic, but I'll bring those elsewhere to avoid hijacking the real focus of this discussion.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Oct 17, 2022)

Sons of the Woodland King said:


> Thank you so much for the info, @Erestor Arcamen ! A part of me always suspected that the Elves were spared the pains of childbirth (lucky buggers aren't blessed enough, are they? lol), but I'm glad to see it confirmed! In Catholic tradition, the Virgin Mary did not experience pain of childbirth on account of her lack of original sin, so I'm not surprised that Tolkien included that concept in his lore as well. I have so many more questions and thoughts on this topic, but I'll bring those elsewhere to avoid hijacking the real focus of this discussion.


You're welcome! It still amazes me the depth at which Tolkien shaped his lore. How many other authors wrote things like this, almost like a biological textbook for his world? My wife would definitely agree that the elves were lucky buggers 😁


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