# Gandalf's promotion vs Saruman's demotion ... ?



## pgt (Jan 26, 2004)

My impression was that the Istari had a sort of cardinality or rank based on 'color' w/ white at the top and then gray and so on...

GIven that, when Gandalf came back he was essentially 'promoted'.


A) At what point is Saruman essentially demoted or stripped of his 'white wizard' status? Is he simply unaware of his change in status or loss of powers? Is it when the Ents storm Isengard? When Gandalf visits? Given that he still seems quite powerful at the time of his full attack on Rohan is there a period of overlap in which there are two white wizards?

B) Exactly what if any 'enhancements' or other goodies does Gandalf the White gain over Gandalf the Gray besides nicer newer clothes? It's made pretty clear that Saruman is a stripped down shell of his former self once he loses his top dog status but w/ Gandalf it seems a bit enigmatic to me what if anything he gains in V2.0 vs V1.0 (sorta like a MS upgrade?)

thanks,


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## Flammifer (Jan 26, 2004)

pgt said:


> A) At what point is Saruman essentially demoted or stripped of his 'white wizard' status? Is he simply unaware of his change in status or loss of powers? Is it when the Ents storm Isengard? When Gandalf visits? Given that he still seems quite powerful at the time of his full attack on Rohan is there a period of overlap in which there are two white wizards?



To my understanding Gandalf and Saruman are both White Wizards until the Parley of Orthanc when Gandalf breaks Saruman's staff. Saruman is then bereft of his power (save his voice).



pgt said:


> B) Exactly what if any 'enhancements' or other goodies does Gandalf the White gain over Gandalf the Gray besides nicer newer clothes? It's made pretty clear that Saruman is a stripped down shell of his former self once he loses his top dog status but w/ Gandalf it seems a bit enigmatic to me what if anything he gains in V2.0 vs V1.0 (sorta like a MS upgrade?)



Well, once Gandalf becomes the White, it seems that he has greater power of body and mind. As is evident by the meeting of the Three Hunters and Gandalf the White in Fangorn, weapons don't seem to harm him anymore (Legolas' arrow burns up, Gimli's axe is "willed" away and so is Aragorn's sword as I recall). Another example of this power over weapons is in Rath Dinen when Gandalf "wills" Denethor's sword out of his hand just as he is about to fell Beregond.

Gandalf the White seems to possess greater "wizard-like" powers also, especially over the Nazgul. On Weathertop, Gandalf the Grey barely escapes after his confrontation with the Nazgul. But once he becomes Gandalf the White, he takes on the Nazgul and wins convincingly (a beam of white light come from his hand and it repels the Nazgul. It seems that if Gandalf had had this power on Weathertop, he would have escaped rather easily. Therefore it can be deduced that this "beam of white light" is a power that Gandalf gains when he become the White).

Now, one might ask why Gandalf is more powerful than Saruman even though they are both White. My answer to this would be that Olorin (the Maia who takes the form of Gandalf in Middle-earth) is more powerful than Curumo (the Maia who takes the form of Saruman in Middle-earth).

Another theory could be that whoever sends Gandalf back after the Battle of the Peak (the Valar or Eru?) wills that Gandalf should be more powerful than Saruman so that he might cast Saruman from the Order.


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## Paul (Jan 26, 2004)

Also i recall that saruman became saruman of many colors could that have something to do about it?


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## Flammifer (Jan 26, 2004)

Actually that's a good question Paul...

But Saruman is Saruman of Many Colours before Gandalf becomes the White, and we see that Saruman is still very powerful up until that point. But it may be that from that point, when he first declared himself openly as a rebel against the Wise, that his power began to dwindle.

However, I think that Saruman changing his cloak to one of "many colours" is just symbolic of Saruman finally succumbing to his lust for the Ring, and his rebellion against the Wise, and his service of Sauron, and his final decision to "leave the path of wisdom".


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## Greenwood (Jan 26, 2004)

Actually, I would question somewhat the premise of this question. It seems to me that all the wizards (or at least the three we know of) had different powers. As for their hierarchy, Saruman was head of the White Council, but that was a decision of the Council, not because of his color. Remember, Galadriel said that she wanted Gandalf to be head of the White Council. The implication is clearly that head of the Council was a chosen position, not one inherent on the wizard's color. 

I would say that Saruman ceased to be the white wizard when he gave up the color to be Saruman of Many Colors. Remember Gandalf's famous line about "he who breaks a thing to see what it is made of has left the path of wisdom" (paraphrase). When Gandalf tells Aragorn and company that he is now Gandalf the White, he says that he is now "Saruman as he should have been".

[edit fixed some typos]


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## Gil-Galad (Jan 26, 2004)

There was a discussion about the colors of the wizards one month ago,I think.

I believe that the colors did not have such importance,they represented Istari's charachters.
It can't be said that Saruman was stronger than Gandalf,he had bigger pride and self-esteem,he considered himself the leader of the Istari.At the same time Olorin was different person,he was ready to recognize Curunir as his leader.
The change of Gandalf's color can be explained with the change of the situation.The leader of The Istari betrayed the others and the Valar,thus somebody had to become the leader and to finish the task.
Radagast was not able to do it because of his love towards animals and plants.The two Blue wizards were in the far East,and though they did a lot of work there,they were not able to face Sauron.At that time Gandalf did not have a choice.He had to take the leadership and to lead the Men.I do not believe that he became more powerful,he just showed more of the power he really possessed.


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## pgt (Jan 26, 2004)

Great posts - thanks...



> Now, one might ask why Gandalf is more powerful than Saruman even though they are both White. My answer to this would be that Olorin (the Maia who takes the form of Gandalf in Middle-earth) is more powerful than Curumo (the Maia who takes the form of Saruman in Middle-earth).



Can you tell me where this is referenced from...?

Good point Greenwood about the head of the white council being 'chosen' however doesn't Gandalf say at some point that Saruman is the head of his order. Also while the colors themselves may be incidental - aren't there many passages that suggest a ranking or hierarchy exists among wizard-kind.



> The two Blue wizards were in the far East,and though they did a lot of work there,they were not able to face Sauron.



I'm curious what all work did they do there? I've found little to suggest they did much of anything let alone what specifically they may have done.

thanks,


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## Gil-Galad (Jan 26, 2004)

Well,as Ithrynluin said some time ago,the Blue wizards did a lot of job in the far East.Though we do not have any information about them,we know that not all men from the Far East served Sauron.That was thanks to the Blue Wizards.


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## Greenwood (Jan 26, 2004)

pgt said:


> Good point Greenwood about the head of the white council being 'chosen' however doesn't Gandalf say at some point that Saruman is the head of his order. Also while the colors themselves may be incidental - aren't there many passages that suggest a ranking or hierarchy exists among wizard-kind.
> 
> I'm curious what all work did they do there? I've found little to suggest they did much of anything let alone what specifically they may have done.


Yes, Gandalf says that, but I don't remember any evidence (in LOTR) to indicate that this referred to anything other than Saruman heading the White Council. As for "many passages that suggest a ranking or hierarchy exists among wizard-kind", I am unfamiliar with them. Can you give examples? Finally, Tolkien never indicates what the other wizards colors were (other than Radagast the Brown and his I always took to be an indication of his involvement with the environment and wild things, i.e. brown for brown earth), nor what they did. Thus we really have no basis to guess aboout the other wizards or how they fit in any hypothetical wizard hierarchy.


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## pgt (Jan 26, 2004)

Greenwood said:


> Yes, Gandalf says that, but I don't remember any evidence (in LOTR) to indicate that this referred to anything other than Saruman heading the White Council.



To the contrary I can't recall anything in LOTR to suggest "White Council" and Gandalf's "Order" are synonyms.

But if it's proof you want...


> The two highest of this order (of whom it is said there were five) were called by the Eldar Curunir, 'the Man of Skill', and Mithrander, 'the Gray Pilgrim', ...


 From LOTR App B, 'The Third Age' paragraphs on Istari.

I think this section of the appendixes largely validates what is already communicated in the book - that is that there indeed is an 'order' and it's teh order of Istari or Wizards and that within this order there is a hierarchy w/ highest and by implication lower or lowest. 



Greenwood said:


> As for "many passages that suggest a ranking or hierarchy exists among wizard-kind", I am unfamiliar with them. Can you give examples?



I suggest reread the passages discussing a) white council, b) my order, c) Radagast just for starters...

If no hierarchy exists why was Radagast willing to be Saruman's messenger boy and why was Gandalf willing to obey? Radagast also did Gandalfs bidding on occasion. Was there a hierarchy or merely quid pro quo? You be the judge?



Greenwood said:


> Finally, Tolkien never indicates what the other wizards colors were (other than Radagast the Brown and his I always took to be an indication of his involvement with the environment and wild things, i.e. brown for brown earth), nor what they did. Thus we really have no basis to guess aboout the other wizards or how they fit in any hypothetical wizard hierarchy.



We have knowledge of 3 specific wizards, their respective color associations and to some degree their interactions w/ one another. That's 1 more than is needed to establish a hierarchy as in superior/subordinate is it not? At one point there is an apparent change in hierarchy roles as to superior/subordinate and at the same time (coincidentally?) there is also a change in color association.


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## Greenwood (Jan 27, 2004)

pgt,

You make some good points and since Saruman is able to imprison Gandalf in Orthanc when he responds to Saruman's summons thru Radagast, I suppose that would also be an indication that, at least at that time, Saruman is more powerful.

As to the extent of "wizardly" powers, Tolkien obviously keeps the various wizards's powers in Middle Earth fairly circumscribed so you rarely see any of them perform the kind of magic that you find in many other fantasies. Clearly when Gandalf is "sent back" after his death in the fight with the Balrog, he is now elevated. Whether or not there can be two "White" wizards at the same time in Middle Earth, I don't think Tolkien ever addresses. As to when Saruman is "stripped" of his powers, I would say it is done by Gandalf at the parlay at Orthanc after the battle of Helm's Deep. At that time Gandalf is clearly the superior in strength. He calls Saruman back at his command and Saruman obeys apparently against his will. If I remember correctly (though I don't have the book here to check) it is at that time that Gandalf tells Saruman he is cast out of the order and Gandalf breaks Saruman's staff. I think the breaking of the staff is a symbolic thing, more than anything. Sort of like breaking the sword of a disgraced military officer being drummed out of the service.


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## pgt (Jan 27, 2004)

Thanks.

I fully agree the Orthanc encounter is largely symbolic I think. In fact I halfway wonder if his powers had largely begun to drain at or by the time Gandalf returns garbed in white. The reason I say this is that at his height of power I believe he could have personally extracted a bit higher price on the Ents or at least a few specific ones. As I recall - what Ent casualties there were, were caused not by Saruman personally but rather conventional means (though I haven't read that section in quite some time). 

Not to make this a movie thread which it isn't but if you saw the movie(s) - the way Saruman was frantically looking out from his tower when Isengard was attacked - he was seemingly already impotent, that is pretty much the way I always invisioned it form the book.

The last specific example of his 'power' (beyond voice) prior to his being deposed that I can recall is whatever control he was able to exert over Theoden. THere seems an interesting blend of his non-conventional powers and conventional powers.

He gets at least 3 wakeup calls that things are not going well - the return of Wormtongue (w/ further news of Gandalf - did he ever know that Gandalf was dead?) from Theoden's court, the Ents attacking Isengard, the disappearance of his attack forces at Helms Deep and then Gandalf shows up to make it all official. Ouch!

At any rate, I find the whole Saruman episode an interesting one. While we never get treated to much of a 1st person inside perspective of his treason - we get these tantalizing mentions, snippets and glimpses behind it all which is better than I can say for Sauron. It's almost tragic how far he falls.

Dumb question but I don't recall off hand - at what point does Gandalf get Cirdan's ring?

thanks,


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## Greenwood (Jan 28, 2004)

pgt said:


> Dumb question but I don't recall off hand - at what point does Gandalf get Cirdan's ring?


I believe Cirdan gave it to him when he first arrived in Middle Earth from the West.


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## Flammifer (Jan 28, 2004)

Greenwood said:


> When Gandalf tells Aragorn and company that he is now Gandalf the White, he says that he is now "Saruman as he should have been".



Precisely. And Gandalf is more powerful than he was then than when he was Grey, clearly showing that Saruman was more powerful than Gandalf the Grey.



Greenwood said:


> Yes, Gandalf says that, but I don't remember any evidence (in LOTR) to indicate that this referred to anything other than Saruman heading the White Council. As for "many passages that suggest a ranking or hierarchy exists among wizard-kind", I am unfamiliar with them. Can you give examples? Finally, Tolkien never indicates what the other wizards colors were (other than Radagast the Brown and his I always took to be an indication of his involvement with the environment and wild things, i.e. brown for brown earth), nor what they did. Thus we really have no basis to guess aboout the other wizards or how they fit in any hypothetical wizard hierarchy.



pgt has provided that quote from the Appendices of LotR, but I would also add this:



> _Gandalf, The Lord of the Rings: "The Fellowship of the Ring", "The Council of Elrond"_
> 
> 'And that message brought me hope. *For Saruman is the greatest of my order*. [...]'



There you go. Saruman is the greatest of the Order of Wizards. Until Gandalf becomes the White.



pgt said:


> We have knowledge of 3 specific wizards, their respective color associations and to some degree their interactions w/ one another. That's 1 more than is needed to establish a hierarchy as in superior/subordinate is it not? At one point there is an apparent change in hierarchy roles as to superior/subordinate and at the same time (coincidentally?) there is also a change in color association.



Precisely. That's a fantastic way to put it! Surely there is a connection between Gandalf's increase in powers and his sudden upgrade to the colour of White.



pgt said:


> Can you tell me where this is referenced from...?



Have you read the Silmarillion pgt? If not, in it you will find all the information you need on Maiar and Valar (the two greatest types of beings in Arda).


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## pgt (Jan 28, 2004)

Flammifer said:


> Precisely. That's a fantastic way to put it! Surely there is a connection between Gandalf's increase in powers and his sudden upgrade to the colour of White.



Then again one shouldn't underestimate the power of belief in coincidence 

Yes, I read the Sil at least twice but it has been a very very long time. The 1st time I read Sil I was fairly young and really didn't get it. I probably should read it again but to be honest I'd probably rather put the energy into HoME or at least a few choice volumes - my interest is mainly 3rd age and prior to that Numenor and history of men. I must admit I had never even heard of HoME until maybe a yr or so ago when I came to this site. And only found this site because of my own renewed interest in the books due to the PJ movies. 

thanks,


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## Flammifer (Jan 28, 2004)

I see. Well, I would definitely reccomend re-reading the Silmarillion. Even if you do not feel you are interested in those times right now, once you get into the book you will wish to read more and more. It really is one of Tolkien's greatest works.

It also encompasses the story of the Downfall of Numenor, in a part called "Akallabeth", so if you are interested in that you should re-read that part.

But you probably know all of this already !


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