# Is orodreth a son of Finarfin?



## Elassar (Sep 23, 2022)

Orodreth was the king of minas tirith and Nargothrond for a time, both kingdoms were wrought by his kinsman Finrod Felagund, son of Finarfin. Was he a son of Finarfin too or a son of angrod? In the sillmarillon there is a passage when it states the two (Felagund and orodreth) brothers but every where else I have seen he is the son of Finwës grandson.


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## Ent (Sep 23, 2022)

Finwë had three sons: Fëanor, Fingolfin and Finarfin,

Finarfin had either 4 or 5 children depending on who you read: – Finrod, Angrod, Aegnor, Galadriel (maybe Orodreth)

Those who hold to 4 children place Orodreth as Angrod's son, making him Finarfin's grandson.

PoME (Peoples of Middle-earth) summarizes that "originally (Orodreth) was brother of Felagund and second King of Nargothrond. Later names and genealogical history: finally son of Angrod and father of Gil-galad."

So it seems the confusion comes from Tolkien's own changes along the way in his work. 
Most who speak to it choosing one side or the other present it as if they are presenting the 'definitive' history and family tree - which comes as no surprise. 😁


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## Ent (Sep 23, 2022)

p.s. @Elassar - 

'generally' I would say we 'may be' safer to go with what came 'last' in Tolkien's thinking.
HOWEVER: each case is different, and I will need to review the FULL background, dating and reasoning as to why one may be preferred over the other.
(All that is written within PoME as well as all other sources).

Now... there are some among the membership here who could likely trot all that out from memory.. we do have those sorts of skillsets on board. But that isn't me. I'm still very much in 'research mode' myself I'm afraid.

Yet it seems as though even among those who have 'gone through it all', it appears there is not full agreement on the 'definitive answer' to the best of my 'research' so far.

So... there it is. 
"At the present moment you thrill with the glamour of the situation and the anticipation of the hunt." Sherlock Holmes: _The Valley of Fear_


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## Tar-Elenion (Sep 23, 2022)

I wrote this before PE 17 and (obviously) NoMe. It way need updating to include information from those two sources.

This is intended to be a 'primary world' history of the parentage of Orodreth and Gil-galad and related matters. 
It seems that Orodreth is the son of Finarfin (who was earlier named Finrod), third son (and fifth child) of Finwe, up through 1958. He appears as such in the 'Annals of Aman' (HoME 10), the 'Later Quenta Silmarillion (I)' (HoME 10 and 11), and the 'Grey Annals' (HoME 11). These were initially written in ca. 1950-1952. Corrections and emendations were made to these manuscripts and amanuensis typescripts, including these changes, were made in 1958. Finarfin in these typescripts is still called Finrod and his son Finrod Felagund is named Inglor. Later JRRT begins to emend these typescripts with changes including the names of Finrod and Inglor to Finarfin and Finrod and indications of the removal of Orodreth from among Finarfin's children. Finarfin is named Arafinwe in the earlier versions of 'Finwe and Miriel' which are dated to 1958 or earlier. The first unaltered appearence of the name: Finarfin (or Finarphin) is in the later versions of 'Finwe and Miriel' and the 'Later Quenta Silmarillion (II)' dated to 1959 (or later); while Finrod (for previously Inglor) is in the 'Athrabeth' also dated to 1959 (or later). In the 'Elessar' essay (UT) Galadriel refers to herself as the last of Finrod's children, and names Angrod, Aegnor and Felagund as the others but fails to mention Orodreth, who CT notes was removed and placed a generation down. 

Gil-galad first appears as a Feanorian (of unknown descent) in the Fall of Numenor (II) (HoME 5). This is dated to not later than 1937. In the original (I) versions of Many Meetings/Council of Elrond (At Rivendell, HoME VI), dated to December 1938, Elrond states that Gil-galad is a descendant of Feanor (which ties in with the original FNII). On an 'isolated' sheet associated with (III) version Gil-galad is said to be son of 'Fin...' where the writing is illegible (CT notes that the fourth letter is _possibly_ an 'r' but the name is definitely not Finrod), this is struck out and 'Inglor?' is written in, this possibly dates to 1939 or early 1940 (HoME VII). Though marked with a query this agrees with the (III) version which has Gil-galad as son of Felagund seemingly through its association with the new ending to the Fall of Numenor II which was revised at the time of the writing of the third version of the Council of Elrond. In an early alteration to the Quenta Silmarillion text of HoME V, Felagund is mentioned as having a wife (Meril) and their son is Gil-galad. In the T3 version of the Tale of Years (of the Second Age) Gil-galad is the son of Felagund and this is also the case with 'Of the Rings of Power'. 'RoP' was extant (in versions) by 1948 (L. 115), while the 'T3' version is no later than August of '50 and was likely written in 1949 (PoME). 

At this point it seems that we have Orodreth as the son of Finarfin (or rather Finrod) through 1958. Gil-galad is a Feanorian from ca. 1937 through ca. 1939. Gil-galad is the son of Finrod (or rather Inglor) Felagund from ca. 1940 until ca. 1949. 

In the Grey Annals it is said that Felagund had no wife and this is consistant with Annals of Aman and the Later Quenta Silmarillion. That Felagund had no wife is maintained up until Dec. 1959. 

In a 'pencilled note' on the amanuensis typescript of the Grey Annals Fingon is noted as the father of Gil-galad. 

In a note (likely dated to Dec. 1959) to the genealogies (Finrod) Felagund is again given a son, Artanaro Rhodothir, otherwise known as Orodreth father of Finduilas. Later JRRT noted that Finrod had no child and had left his wife in Aman. At this point Orodreth is now made the son of Angrod (and renamed Artaresto) (PoME). 

Now referring back to the 'Elessar' essay which must date from the time before 'Inglor' became 'Finrod' as Finrod (ie Finarfin) is Galadriel's father but after or about the time Orodreth is made her nephew. That would tend to date the Elessar essay to late 1959 or 1960 (which may indicate that the 'Athrabeth' should be dated into 1960 as it seems that name Finrod was not given to Inglor until after Orodreth had been removed as his brother). 

In 'Aldarion and Erendis' Gil-galad is named 'Finellach Gil-galad of the House of Finarfin'. In UT CT dates this work to 1965, though in PoME he says this might be dated to 1960. JRRT notes this work as 'nearly complete' in September of 1965 (L. 276). It seems that this must be later than the 'Elessar' story (as Finarfin is used for Finrod). But it is not impossible that Finarfin maintained the name Finrod for a time as well before it was decided that Felagund should receive it. Gil-galad is also called Finellach the 'Description of the Island of Numenor'. 

It is not noted what parentage Gil-galad had as 'Finellach', though CT notes this preceded by some time the making of Gil-galad into the son of Orodreth, which happened in August of 1965 when 'scribbled at great speed' a note, suggesting that Gil-galad (here named Rodnor/Artanaro) should be the son Orodreth (Artaresto), son of Angrod, was written. 

In the Elessar essay Celebrimbor is noted as a jewel smith of Gondolin, though in a note JRRT wrote against that essay he says it would be better to make Celebrimbor a descendant of Feanor (PoME). This happened with the Second Edition of RotK (1966). JRRT noted in one of his copies of this edition that Celebrimbor had grown to love Finrod and his (unnamed) wife while dwelling as a refugee in Nargothrond. 

In the 1968 Shibboleth of Feanor, Orodreth is noted as 'Artaher' the son of Angarato (Angrod) and Eldalote. Gil-galad (Ereinion) is referred to with the Finarfinians and in a footnote is said to be the son of Artaher. 

Orodreth is son of Finarfin until (it seems) 1959. Towards the end of 1959 he is made the son of Finrod Felagund. But this is then emended to the son of Angrod, since Finrod had no wife. However in an undated note on a 1966 copy of RotK Finrod is said to have a wife (in Nargothrond). In the Shibboleth there is no mention of his having a wife. Through the 1950's Gil-galad was no longer Finrod's son as Finrod had no wife, and he was noted as the son of Fingon on the 1958 typescript. Gil-galad returns to being a Finarfinian in the '60's (possibly as late as 1965 or as early as 1960). But who was his father considered to be in the Aldarion and Erendis essay, before he was made the son of Orodreth? We only have him being of the 'House of Finarfin'. When was the note made on the Second Edition of RotK that suggests Finrod did have a wife in exile? What was Gil-galad's lineage when he was descended from Feanor?


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## Ent (Sep 23, 2022)

Tar-Elenion said:


> This is intended to be a 'primary world' history of the parentage of Orodreth and Gil-galad and related matters.


Thank you, Tar-Elenion, for this great compilation of ... stuff. Gives me lots of places to check out.

So, @Elasser, I come back to this point, slightly altered, but with far greater conviction. 

"We do not and cannot know."

We used to have a place here in the Forum called "The Great Halls of Speculation", of which I eventually became Squint-eyed Southernor's successor as Curator. It was a massive place... and we had opened the 11th floor for entries such as this that were 'hazy' at best.

But those halls burned down. I'm certain Orodreth was among the countless entries into them... but the materials no longer being available, we look to such as Tar-Elenion to uncover such historical documentation as remains available.

Any questions - ask him. 😁


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 23, 2022)

The Enting said:


> Those who hold to 4 children place Orodreth as Angrod's son, making him Finarfin's grandson.
> 
> PoME (Peoples of Middle-earth) summarizes that "originally (Orodreth) was brother of Felagund and second King of Nargothrond. Later names and genealogical history: finally son of Angrod and father of Gil-galad."


This is my preference. I think it fits best with how things go.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 23, 2022)

Elassar said:


> Orodreth was the king of minas tirith and Nargothrond for a time, both kingdoms were wrought by his kinsman Finrod Felagund, son of Finarfin. Was he a son of Finarfin too or a son of angrod? In the sillmarillon there is a passage when it states the two (Felagund and orodreth) brothers but every where else I have seen he is the son of Finwës grandson.


This has a great deal of gray area. I have personally always regarded him as the son of Angrod and the Grandson of Finarfin, but there is a lot of confusion surrounding this topic I am afraid.


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 23, 2022)

The Enting said:


> Thank you, Tar-Elenion, for this great compilation of ... stuff. Gives me lots of places to check out.
> 
> So, @Elasser, I come back to this point, slightly altered, but with far greater conviction.
> 
> ...


It does sound like Tolkien was leaning towards a descendant of Finarfin and seems to prefer, later in life, the idea of grandson (whether Finrod or Angrod). I get the feeling he preferred the idea of Finrod having left his wife behind as he kept coming back to it and the times he said otherwise seem to keep getting emended. But those are just my speculations.


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## Ent (Sep 23, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> But those are just my speculations.


And not bad ones. 
It's been written somewhere that as his thinking evolved, his intentions were always to go back and revise stuff so it all fit together rightly.
But of course, he ran out of time. (And possibly inclination, as it progressed, and became ever more complex. again, speculation on my part.)
It's also for this reason I think it's 'usually best' to hold to what his later work may have shown - depending on what that work is/was - a solid thought that ended up in some work (as this clearly did) or a scribbling in a column like his many 'this may need to be re-written' thoughts, etc. 

It is a lovely world... and frankly, is also why there is so much 'fanfic' and interpretation available. 

IF we imagine PJ or Amazon deciding "Orodreth will be... (option A)...." we would have beamers and screamers. 
If we imagine they had chosen "option B" for him instead, we'd still have beamers and screamers. They'd be the same people just switching positions.

"You can make some people happy some of the time. You can make many people happy on occasion. But you'll never make all the people happy ever. No, not even once." ........ The Enting.


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## Elthir (Sep 23, 2022)

For me the answer is:

Rodnor Gil-galad -- son of Arothir [Orodreth] -- son of Angrod

Concerning which Christopher Tolkien writes: "*There can be no doubt that this was my father's last 
word on the subject; but nothing of this late and radically altered conception ever touched the existing narratives, and it was obviously impossible to introduce it into the published Silmarillion." *CJR Tolkien, commentary, The Shibboleth of Feanor

And I'm not tasked with crafting and publishing a one volume Silmarillion for readers


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 23, 2022)

Elthir said:


> For me the answer is:
> 
> Rodnor Gil-galad -- son of Arothir [Orodreth] -- son of Angrod
> 
> ...


...How? It's a minor change and alters the narrative of The Silmarillion not at all. It's a genealogy chart issue.


Elthir said:


> And I'm not tasked with crafting and publishing a one volume Silmarillion for readers


Yes, though I'm baffled how he thinks this alteration is "radical".


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## Ent (Sep 23, 2022)

Elthir said:


> And I'm not tasked with crafting and publishing a one volume Silmarillion


WHAT...? 
I'm SO disillusioned.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 23, 2022)

The Enting said:


> "You can make some people happy some of the time. You can make many people happy on occasion. But you'll never make all the people happy ever. No, not even once." ........ The Enting.


Feels as though this one is borrowed...


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## Ent (Sep 23, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Feels as though this one is borrowed...


Yep. Borrowed and horribly twisted...! (A moment of the Melkor-Ent or Entauron showing through.)


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 23, 2022)

Yeah what is it, this one?



I think this is it.


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## Ent (Sep 23, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Yeah what is it, this one?
> 
> View attachment 15996
> 
> I think this is it.



Yep that's the core the Ent twisted..!


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 23, 2022)

WELL- You are an ENT. Meaning twisting and turning to find some sunlight or pocket of earthen soil you haven't yet grasped might be very like you... Yet it seems to be a sort of TREE-ISH behavior....


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## Ent (Sep 23, 2022)

Normally, yes. I was just trying my twigs at "adapting". 😁


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## Elassar (Sep 23, 2022)

What about gil- galad. I have always thought he was a son of fingon and finduilas was the only daughter of orodreth. 


The proffersor loves to confuse us.


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## Ent (Sep 23, 2022)

@Elassar I believe Elthir's up above speaks to that (see also now below).



Elthir said:


> For me the answer is:
> 
> Rodnor Gil-galad -- son of Arothir [Orodreth] -- son of Angrod
> 
> ...



It seems if we do look to 'the last word' Tolkien intended things to be, that would have been his direction.

He didn't intentionally confuse us. It was just a bigger task than he was able to keep all put together, within the time constraints the rest of his life also imposed on him. 

So all his changes could not be 'worked backward' and more properly incorporated into all the previous work as he refined his thinking.

'tis the curse of 'building a universe' rather than just 'writing a book or 3.'


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 23, 2022)

Elassar said:


> What about gil- galad. I have always thought he was a son of fingon and finduilas was the only daughter of orodreth.
> 
> 
> The proffersor loves to confuse us.


As a writer this is something that comes up when writing. Your mind and mood change over time so your conception of the setting change especially as it gets fleshed out in other ways.


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