# Feanor's Rebellion - Are the Valar really to blame?



## Grond (Oct 3, 2002)

> _from The Silmarillion, Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor_
> 
> High Princes were Fëanor and Fingolfin, the elder sons of Finwë, honoured by all in Aman; but now they grew proud and jealous each of his rights and his possessions. Then Melkor set new lies abroad in Eldamar, and whispers came to Fëanor that Fingolfin and his sons were plotting to usurp the leadership of Finwë and of the elder line of Fëanor, and to supplant them by the leave of the Valar; for the Valar were ill-pleased that the Silmarils lay in Tirion and were not submitted to their keeping. But to Fingolfin and Finarfin it was said; 'Beware! Small love has the proud son of Míriel ever had for the children of Indis. Now he has become great, and he has his father in his hand. It will not be long before he drives you forth from Túna!'
> 
> ...


Many blame the Flight of the Noldor on the Valar failing to act when Melkor destroyed the trees and stole the Silmarils. I had forgotten this passage and all of the evil emotions that Melkor had begun to bring to fruition long before he fled Valinor after his first unchaining. 

My question....

A brief summary is here listed:
1 - Melkor begins sowing lies amongst the Noldor directed specifically at splitting the Noldor camp in two. 
2 - The Son of Indis and the Sons of Miriel become distrustful of the other and begin forging weapons and armour and begin to employ heraldry to distinguish those loyal to one or the other. 
3 - Feanor begins to openly speak words of rebellion against the Valar. 
4 - Finwe calls a meeting of his people to discuss these issues in which Fingolfin pleads with his father to assume leadership and put down Feanor's call for departure.
5 - Feanor arrives late and in a jealous rage, chastises and humiliates his brother with a sword. He follows Fingolfin out of the assembly and threatens him with death.
6 - Feanor receives the punishment of the Valar. His father follows him into exile.
7 - Fingolfin acts as King of the Noldor during Feanor's punishment since his father has abdicated while Feanor is banished.

*Are the Valar really to blame?* Melkor was free to plant his lies and sow his seeds of deceit. He did so to some effect on all the sons of Finwe. The quote above makes it clear that all three of Finwe's sons took heed to Melkor's words but that Feanor was effected the most evilly of the three.


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## gate7ole (Oct 3, 2002)

Let's consider the facts. Melkor was able to act and spread his lies under the very nose of the Valar and they didn't understand it until it was too late! It shows impotence from the part of the Valar to handle the condition of their own home.
Then, when the lies acted on Feanor and he "began openly to speak words of rebellion against the Valar", they decided as good "parents" to punish and banish him, instead of dealing with the situation and fighting with the root of the problems.
Then again, knowing that Melkor was lost from sight and dangerous, they didn't think of placing some guards to protect their kingdom, allowing him to work unhambered and destroy the Trees.
And to make matters worse, when the Noldor decided to leave, they didn't try to soberize them, but nearly forbade them.
This is a series of foolish acts by the Valar that deteriorated the situation. I don't say that the Noldor were not responsible. They played a great role in the evil consequences. But I expected much more from the Aratar, the great Powers, the greatest children of Illuvatar.
So, I blame mostly them for their irresponsible behaviour, giving, though, a part of the blame to the Noldor.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Oct 3, 2002)

No, I do not believe that the Valar are to blame, but Feanor. Melkor was released into the free world by the Valar and there was free to sow his lies of deceit wherever he would. It was Feanor and the Noldor first who listened to the lies of Melkor, and the Valar had no part in this. Melkor was free to sow his lies concerning the Valar wanting ME free from the elves so that the Second Born would be able to rule the world in their place. It was the Noldor's fault that they listened and heeded to these lies, for if they had been wise like the Teleri they would have completely shut Melkor out. But they didn't and where thus poisened by his words and filled with doubt. This is how it all started and it was completely separate from the Valar, and from this I conclude that the dissent within the Noldor was all their own making (with the help of Melkor, of course).

First of all, the Valar _ were not _ unactive after the destruction of the trees and the rape of the Silmarills. Right after Ungoliant destroyed the trees, the Valar tried to find Melkor but were unable to. After this failed they were not idle either even though Feanor, in the folly of his heart, said that they were. From The Sil:



> It is told that after the flight of Melkor the Valar sat long unmoved upon their thrones in the Ring of Doom; but they were not idle, as Feanor declared in the folly of his heart.



Rather, they took counsel together with unspoken words. I cannot imagine that they would have done any different for they had a lot to discuss and would not wish to rush into anything heedlessly. Thus I conclude that the Valar did act as well as they could. 

Feanor, with his well-spoken words, was the main reason for prompting the Noldor to leave Aman, and without him I doubt that they would have left in the first place. It was Feanor and his sons who swore their terrible oath and placed doom upon themselves. I can see in this no reason to blame the Valar. It was Feanor's fault, and Feanor's alone. After the Kinslaying at Alaquondi, in which a good deal of the Noldor took part, the flight of the Noldor was obvious. They had taken part in a terrible deed and had (for the most part) no wish to accept the forgiveness that the Valar offered them. Here the Valar tried to keep the Noldor from leaving, but because of Feanor and the Kinslaying (the fault of Feanor) they were unable to do so. Only the guiltless Noldor accepted the offering of the Valar, but the others were either too proud or bound by some oath. Because of all of these happenings, I can see no reason to blame the Valar for what seems to be the complete fault of Feanor.


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## Confusticated (Oct 3, 2002)

Of course the Valar are too blame, they had the power to stop it and did not. They were wiser, and some what of a parental figure to the elves, but they just sat back and watched the show. If Feanor had told them that they could have the silmarils instead of denying them right before he learned of the theft and slaying of his father those Valar would probably have helped. He was no more stubborn than they were.
The Valar should have been more sympothetic to the fact that Melkor decieved Feanor. Stupid Manwe's judgement of Melkor went unchallenged by Tulkas the slow and Ulmo.
Feanor went after the monster who killed his father and took his greatest work, what'd the Valar do? Cursed them.


PS: I voted that both were at fault, but more the Valar. I say, A _lot_ more the Valar.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Oct 3, 2002)

> Let's consider the facts. Melkor was able to act and spread his lies under the very nose of the Valar and they didn't understand it until it was too late! It shows impotence from the part of the Valar to handle the condition of their own home.



No, it shows the power and ability of Melkor to deceive. He was a very powerful Vala.



> Then, when the lies acted on Feanor and he "began openly to speak words of rebellion against the Valar", they decided as good "parents" to punish and banish him, instead of dealing with the situation and fighting with the root of the problems.



It was not for Feanor's words that he was banished, but for his threatening of Fingolfin. The Valar believed that Feanor was the root of the unrest of the Noldor, but they did not banish him for this. It was clear to them that it was the Noldor's decision whether to stay or to leave Aman and not their own. They banished him for his act against his half brother.



> They were wiser, and some what of a parental figure to the elves, but they just sat back and watched the show.



The only reason they "sat back and watched the show" was because they believed that the Noldor had every right to leave Aman if they wanted - and they did.



> The Valar should have been more sympothetic to the fact that Melkor decieved Feanor. Stupid Manwe's judgement of Melkor went unchallenged by Tulkas the slow and Ulmo.



Stupid Manwe? Slow Tulkas? I do not think so! Tulkus and Ulmo had respect for Manwe and because of this did not question his decision. Melkor was the master of lies and deceit and very good at his profession. I do not think you should call the Valar stupid for showing compassion!



> If Feanor had told them that they could have the silmarils instead of denying them right before he learned of the theft and slaying of his father those Valar would probably have helped. He was no more stubborn than they were.
> 
> Feanor went after the monster who killed his father and took his greatest work, what'd the Valar do? Cursed them.



It was not the Silmarills that made the Valar unwilling to help the Noldor, but the Noldor's own attitude towards the Valar. The Noldor were accusing the Valar of some very wrong things as well as rebelling. Why should they be expected to help such an unruly people? The Valar did not curse the Noldor for leaving Aman but for the Kinslaying at Alaquondi. They were more than willing to forgive those who would repent, but to those who wouldn't they cursed. More than fair, I should think.


That was fun.


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## Galdor (Oct 3, 2002)

I think there Both at Fault Equally. I mean, Feanor had every right to go after Melkor, he killed his father and stole the Silmarils. And if Feanor hadn't gone after him the Valar would have probably sat in their happy little kingdom and left Middle Earth to Melkor. The Valar have been fighting with Melkor for ages uncounted, there's only one of him and eight them, lets face the Valar are all around LAZY. Common, Feanor goes after his father's killer and Mandros cures him?? It's there fault in the first place, there're the one who where blind to the fact that Melkor was still evil, Feanor figured it out in no time, and they should have dealt with him ages ago. Granted Feanor wasn't a saint ether, he had a big pride and jealousy problem. And hated his brother's guts, and he also started to listen to Melkor's lies, but it was the Valar who let Melkor run around lying to him. mix the Valar's laziness and lack of sympathy to Feanor's point of view and Feanor pride and anger and what do you get? You do the math.


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## gate7ole (Oct 4, 2002)

But how can someone not blame the Valar, even a little?
Nenya says that they tried, but since they failed... Here the trial is not enough, and alone the inability to resolve the problem is a reason to blame them.
I can understand someone blaming mostly Feanor, but not Valar at all, I disagree.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Oct 4, 2002)

Yes, I do say that the Valar tried. From what the Sil. says it seems pretty obvious to me that they did. However, it was not a sin on the part of the Valar that they failed to stop Melkor. I cannot see blaming the Valar for the flight of the Noldor because it was purely the Noldor and the Noldor only (of course with Melkor's help) who sparked dissent among themselves and commited terrible acts and sins. Thus I conclude that it was not the Valar's problem, but Feanor and the Noldor's problem.

Gate7ole, are you talking about the Valar failing in the sense that they failed to stop Melkor or in the sense that they failed to stop the Noldor from leaving Aman?


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## Confusticated (Oct 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Nenya Evenstar _
> *
> 
> 
> The only reason they "sat back and watched the show" was because they believed that the Noldor had every right to leave Aman if they wanted - and they did.*


Sure the Noldor had a right to leave, but in my eyes the Valar could have and even should have aided them. Feanor and his people ran off in haste, it was clear that they were acting foolishly since their chances against Morgoth were so small (many would say none). I think that some Valar should have stayed with Feanor. The Noldor were cursed right away after the kinslaying, but for how many years of distruction did they let Morgoth run free? And for what? To see to it that the curse of the Noldor would stand? 



> Stupid Manwe? Slow Tulkas? I do not think so! Tulkus and Ulmo had respect for Manwe and because of this did not question his decision. Melkor was the master of lies and deceit and very good at his profession. I do not think you should call the Valar stupid for showing compassion!


One can both show compassion and be stupid. Perhaps I should have called Manwe ignorant rather than stupid though. I honestly think Manwe's ignorance is to blame and I am not happy about that.



It was not the Silmarills that made the Valar unwilling to help the Noldor, but the Noldor's own attitude towards the Valar. The Noldor were accusing the Valar of some very wrong things as well as rebelling. Why should they be expected to help such an unruly people? The Valar did not curse the Noldor for leaving Aman but for the Kinslaying at Alaquondi. They were more than willing to forgive those who would repent, but to those who wouldn't they cursed. More than fair, I should think.


That was fun.  [/B][/QUOTE]


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## gate7ole (Oct 4, 2002)

> Gate7ole, are you talking about the Valar failing in the sense that they failed to stop Melkor or in the sense that they failed to stop the Noldor from leaving Aman?


Both. They failed to protect their own home from Melkor, who had already showed his evil purposes. Do you blame anyone else for this?
They failed to stop the Noldor from leaving Valinor. Confusticated answered this part for me:


> Sure the Noldor had a right to leave, but in my eyes the Valar could have and even should have aided them. Feanor and his people ran off in haste, it was clear that they were acting foolishly since their chances against Morgoth were so small (many would say none). I think that some Valar should have stayed with Feanor


If you don't put blame at all to the Valar and consider that they did the best they could, then you expected too little from the Gods, the first Children of the thought of Illuvatar. I expected more.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Oct 4, 2002)

> Sure the Noldor had a right to leave, but in my eyes the Valar could have and even should have aided them. Feanor and his people ran off in haste, it was clear that they were acting foolishly since their chances against Morgoth were so small (many would say none). I think that some Valar should have stayed with Feanor.



I completely disagree with this. I see no reason why the Valar should have aided the Noldor in their quest for revenge against Morgoth. They knew that it was folly, knew that it was doomed from the beginning, and they warned the Noldor fairly at the very beginning and gave them every chance to not go on the quest in the first place. Why should they be expected to help such a doomed quest? Who, when giving counsel to another, would say, "This is folly, but I will help you anyway!"? No one! The Valar knew that the oath of Feanor and his sons was folly, and they knew that the flight of the Noldor was folly. Why should they too take part in folly just to help a rebellious people?




> The Noldor were cursed right away after the kinslaying, but for how many years of distruction did they let Morgoth run free? And for what? To see to it that the curse of the Noldor would stand?



Remember that the Valar were present at the very beginning and took part in the music of Illuvatar. No one knows for what reason they let Melkor run free in Middle Earth so long, but it is my personal opinion that they did so because they knew what was to come. It was the will of Illuvatar that Melkor remain free for a time and the Valar knew this.




> Both. They failed to protect their own home from Melkor, who had already showed his evil purposes. Do you blame anyone else for this?



Before the Valar had ousted Melkor the first time they raised the mountains of the Pelori as a defence against Melkor. They served their purpose then, and I can only imagine that the Valar did not feel any need to redo their defences, especially as they had never gotten a chance to test them in past battles with Melkor. Also, I would answer like I do below. Who knows what Illuvatar had planned?



> One can both show compassion and be stupid. Perhaps I should have called Manwe ignorant rather than stupid though. I honestly think Manwe's ignorance is to blame and I am not happy about that.



Manwe ignorant? I still beg to differ! The one in all the halls of Ea who knew the mind of Illuvatar the most ignorant? I cannot believe that. 



> If you don't put blame at all to the Valar and consider that they did the best they could, then you expected too little from the Gods, the first Children of the thought of Illuvatar. I expected more.



Look deeper. Manwe was close to the very thought of Illuvatar and knew much of his will for Arda. I cannot expect more from the Valar, especially Manwe, because of this attachment to the One that he and they possessed. No one can fathom the minds of the Valar, but I do not think that we should go as far as to say that they are stupid, ignorant, or that we expect more of them. They are the closest to Illuvatar and do his will. Rather, I would say that I expected more from the Noldor!


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## Confusticated (Oct 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Nenya Evenstar _
> I completely disagree with this. I see no reason why the Valar should have aided the Noldor in their quest for revenge against Morgoth. They knew that it was folly, knew that it was doomed from the beginning, and they warned the Noldor fairly at the very beginning and gave them every chance to not go on the quest in the first place. Why should they be expected to help such a doomed quest?* Who, when giving counsel to another, would say, "This is folly, but I will help you anyway!"?* No one! The Valar knew that the oath of Feanor and his sons was folly, and they knew that the flight of the Noldor was folly. Why should they too take part in folly just to help a rebellious people?


Someone who cares about the person and will not let them go off alone to distruction. Things like this happend in The Lord of the Rings. Sam went with Frodo, just to name a well known example. Some of the Noldor knew it was folly but they left Valinor with Feanor anyway, they would not leave thier people to fight alone as did the Valar.
The Valar were wronged by Melkor too, Ungoliant and him darkend Valinor. Folly for the elves to go up against Morgoth, but with the Valar at their side it would not have been so. 



> Remember that the Valar were present at the very beginning and took part in the music of Illuvatar. No one knows for what reason they let Melkor run free in Middle Earth so long, but it is my personal opinion that they did so because they knew what was to come. It was the will of Illuvatar that Melkor remain free for a time and the Valar knew this.


 Do you also beleive that it was the will of Illuvatar that Feanor and his people rebel and be cursed? If so, then that will was done through Melkor and the other Valar, and not Feanor alone.




> Manwe ignorant? I still beg to differ! The one in all the halls of Ea who knew the mind of Illuvatar the most ignorant? I cannot believe that.


 Generaly speaking Manwe wasn't extremely ignorant, but there is no doubt that he was ignorant of Melkor's evil and capabilities.



> _From The Silmarillion_
> *.....and it seemed to Manwë that the evil of Melkor was cured. For Manwë was free from evil and could not comprehend it, and he knew that in the beginning, in the thought of Ilúvatar, Melkor had been even as he; and he saw not to the depths of Melkor's heart, and did not perceive that all love had departed from him for ever. But Ulmo was not deceived, and Tulkas clenched his hands whenever he saw Melkor his foe go by; for if Tulkas is slow the wrath he is slow also to forget.*


Manwe was ignorant, more so than Ulmo in this aspect. 







> Look deeper. Manwe was close to the very thought of Illuvatar and knew much of his will for Arda. I cannot expect more from the Valar, especially Manwe, because of this attachment to the One that he and they possessed. No one can fathom the minds of the Valar, but I do not think that we should go as far as to say that they are stupid, ignorant, or that we expect more of them. They are the closest to Illuvatar and do his will. Rather, I would say that I expected more from the Noldor!


 well gate7ole said that he expected more from the Valar, but I would like to respond to part of this.
I admitted already that stupid was a poor choice of word to describe Manwe. But I hold to what I said about him being ignorant. If anyone is without ignorance it could only be Illuvatar. Manwe may have known more than the other Valar but he did not know all: this means that he was ignorant to some things. As I said above: Melkor was one of them.


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## Gothmog (Oct 4, 2002)

> Let's consider the facts. Melkor was able to act and spread his lies under the very nose of the Valar and they didn't understand it until it was too late! It shows impotence from the part of the Valar to handle the condition of their own home.


Yes let us consider the facts.

The “Impotence of the Valar” against Melkor

From the Silmarillion: The Ainulindale


> To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren.


 and


> Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor;


 So it is less surprising that Melkor could do much without the Valar knowing. He was the greatest and most powerful of them, even Ilúvatar says this.



> Then, when the lies acted on Feanor and he "began openly to speak words of rebellion against the Valar", they decided as good "parents" to punish and banish him, instead of dealing with the situation and fighting with the root of the problems.


From the Silmarillion: Chapter 7: of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor


> There also were summoned all others who had any part in this matter, or any knowledge of it; and Fëanor standing before Mandos in the Ring of Doom was commanded to answer all that was asked of him. Then at last the root was laid bare, and the malice of Melkor revealed; and straightway Tulkas left the council to lay hands upon him and bring him again to the judgement. But Fëanor was not held guiltless, for he it was that had broken the peace of Valinor and drawn his sword upon his kinsman;


 Upon finding what had happened the Valar tried to recapture Melkor but were unable. This is not so surprising considering his power.



> Then again, knowing that Melkor was lost from sight and dangerous, they didn't think of placing some guards to protect their kingdom, allowing him to work unhambered and destroy the Trees.


From the Silmarillion: Chapter 8: of the Darkening of Valinor.


> When Manwë heard of the ways that Melkor had taken, it seemed plain to him that he purposed to escape to his old strongholds in the north of Middle-earth; and Oromë and Tulkas went with all speed northward, seeking to overtake him if they might, but they found no trace or rumour of him beyond the shores of the Teleri, in the unpeopled wastes that drew near to the Ice. Thereafter the watch was redoubled along the northern fences of Aman; but to no purpose, for ere ever the pursuit set out Melkor had turned back, and in secrecy passed away far to the south. for he was yet as one of the Valar, and could change his form, or walk unclad, as could his brethren; though that power he was soon to lose for ever.


 So they placed guards where they considered the danger to be, the North. However, as he could ‘Walk Unclad’ nobody saw him turn South.



> And to make matters worse, when the Noldor decided to leave, they didn't try to soberize them, but nearly forbade them.


From the Silmarillion: Chapter 9: of the Flight of the Noldor.


> But even as the trumpet sang and Fëanor issued from the gates of Tirion a messenger came at last from Manwë, saying: 'Against the folly of Fëanor shall be set my counsel only. Go not forth! For the hour is evil, and your road leads to sorrow that ye do not foresee. No aid will the Valar lend you in this quest; but neither will they hinder you; for this ye shall know: as ye came hither freely, freely shall ye depart.


 What more could the Valar do? Anything other than this would be forcing them to stay.



> This is a series of foolish acts by the Valar that deteriorated the situation. I don't say that the Noldor were not responsible. They played a great role in the evil consequences. But I expected much more from the Aratar, the great Powers, the greatest children of Illuvatar.


 There were no ‘foolish’ acts by the Valar. They acted as best they could with what they knew or saw. Only Ilúvatar could have seen all that Melkor did.

And as for the Guilt of the Noldor and of Féanor:

From the Silmarillion: Chapter 7: of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor


> Bitterly did the Noldor atone for the folly of their open ears in the days that followed after.


 Had they been less credulous they would not have been estranged from the Valar in the first place and Melkor would not have been able to cause any harm to the Trees. Therefore, Not only is Féanor the Guilty party in this question but the Noldor were responsible for Melkor’s being in a position to destroy the Trees. I wonder that the Valar did Not drive such ingrates from their land.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Oct 4, 2002)

Thank you for the incredibly thourough post, Gothmog! 



> Someone who cares about the person and will not let them go off alone to distruction. Things like this happend in The Lord of the Rings. Sam went with Frodo, just to name a well known example. Some of the Noldor knew it was folly but they left Valinor with Feanor anyway, they would not leave thier people to fight alone as did the Valar.





> The Valar were wronged by Melkor too, Ungoliant and him darkend Valinor. Folly for the elves to go up against Morgoth, but with the Valar at their side it would not have been so.



Frodo was not doing something unwise and wrong. Feanor was. The Noldor followed him because of Feanor's fiery spirit and skill with words more than out of loyalty. If Feanor hadn't been there to drive them on they never would have left Aman. The decision of the Valar not to help Feanor and the Noldor was simply because the oath of Feanor was a rash oath, it was folly for the Noldor to go out after him, and because of the disobedience of the Noldor. The Noldor and most of all Feanor did not deserve the help of the Valar, and the Valar were just - very just.




> Do you also beleive that it was the will of Illuvatar that Feanor and his people rebel and be cursed? If so, then that will was done through Melkor and the other Valar, and not Feanor alone.



Yes, I do believe that. But of course it was done through the other Valar and Melkor as well as Feanor! But this does not mean that the Valar were to blame. People may take part in great things and not be to blame for the sins of others.

As for Manwe being ignorant of Melkor's doings, read Gothmog's post. Everything is explained wonderfully there.


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## Ancalagon (Oct 4, 2002)

Gothmog, you seem to be pointing the finger squarely at Feanor and The Noldor and not accrediting my lord and master Melkor, the true genius behind Feanor's rebellion, the praise, appreciation and thanks he so richly deserves.


> And of these Melkor was the chief, even as he was in the beginning the greatest of the Ainur who took part in the Music. And he feigned, even to himself at first, that he desired to go thither and order all things for the good of the Children of Ilúvatar, controlling the turmoils of the heat and the cold that had come to pass through him. But he desired rather to subdue to his will both Elves and Men, envying the gifts with which Ilúvatar promised to endow them; and he wished himself to have subject and servants, and to be called Lord, and to be a master over other wills.


 Yes, we can blame the Valar, at least we can blame one of them, for Melkor was greatest among them, for even though his actions may be viewed as wrong, he pursued them relentlessly, with vigour and shrewdness. Enough to fool his brother and the unwary firstborn. Enough to sow discord among them, succour them with his wisdom, feign love and interest in serving them. Feanor played his part in Melkor grand plan, just as the Noldor did. 
Let us not forget why Melkor was so driven to punish the Elves in that time;


> Never did Melkor forget that this war was made for the sake of the Elves, and that they were the cause of his downfall. Yet they had no part in those deeds, and they know little of the riding of the might of the West against the North in the beginning of their days.





> Then he looked upon their glory and their bliss, and envy was in his heart; he looked upon the Children of Ilúvatar that sat at the feet of the Mighty, and hatred filled him; he looked upon the wealth of bright gems, and he lusted for them; but he hid his thoughts, and postponed his vengeance.


 Let's face it, one cannot realy blame the Valar for being deceived by the cunnigness of Melkor. Although a few were not, Manwe was, and he was an honest creature, Melkors opposite in evenry sense, yet closer to him than any. If you want to blame someone for Manwe's ignorance, blame Iluvatar!


> But fair-seeming were all the words and deeds of Melkor in that time, and both the Valar and the Eldar had profit from his aid and counsel, if they sought it; and therefore in a while he was given leave to go freely about the land, and it seemed to Manwë that the evil of Melkor was cured. For Manwë was free from evil and could not comprehend it, and he knew that in the beginning, in the thought of Ilúvatar, Melkor had been even as he; and he saw not to the depths of Melkor's heart, and did not perceive that all love had departed from him for ever. But Ulmo was not deceived, and Tulkas clenched his hands whenever he saw Melkor his foe go by; for if Tulkas is slow to wrath he is slow also to forget. But they obeyed the judgement of Manwë; for those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel.


The fact remains; Melkor alone contrieved to disown the Noldor from The Valar, for he held them in such contempt for his own downfall;


> Now in his heart Melkor most hated the Eldar, both because they were fair and joyful and because in them he saw the reason for the arising of the Valar, and his own downfall.


 Like it or not, Melkor was the ultimate driving force behind Feanor's rebellion and Feanor didnt even realise it;


> but he lied in his lust and his envy, for none of the Eldalië ever hated Melkor more than Fëanor son of Finwë, who first named him Morgoth; and snared though he was in the webs of Melkor's malice against the Valar he held no converse with him and took no counsel from him.


Melkor is master


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## Nenya Evenstar (Oct 4, 2002)

Yes, Ancalagon, I realize that Melkor had a very major part behind Feanor and the Noldor's rebellion, so I'll give your master credit.  However, I was under the impression that by "Valar" Grond meant the good Valar in Aman and not Melkor. I give Melkor a lot of credit in this issue, but I was under the impression that he was not supposed to be considered "Valar" in the context that we are talking.


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## Maedhros (Oct 5, 2002)

> Many blame the Flight of the Noldor on the Valar failing to act when Melkor destroyed the trees and stole the Silmarils.


Actually the Valar failed (Manwë), because they were fooled by his words and was left to operate his lies among the Elves. (Noldor)
From Morgoth's Ring:


> Before the gates of Valmar Melkor abased himself at the feet of Manwë and sued for pardon, promising that, if he might be made but the least of the free folk of Valinor, he would aid the Valar in all their deeds, and most of all in the healing of the many hurts that he had wrought and now would work no more. And Niënna aided his prayer, but Mandos was silent. Then Manwë granted him pardon; but the Valar would not yet suffer him to depart from their sight and vigilance. He was given, therefore, a humble dwelling within the gates of the city, and put on trial; and he was not permitted to go more than one league from Valmar, save by the leave of Manwë and with a guardian at his side. But fair-seeming were all the words and deeds of Melkor in that time, and both Valar and Eldar had much profit from his aid. Wherefore in a while he was allowed to go freely about the land, and it seemed to Manwë that his evil was cured. For he himself was free from the evil and could not comprehend it, and he knew that in the beginning. in the thought of Eru, Melkor had been even as he. Yet it is said that Ulmo's heart misgave him, and Tulkas clenched his hands whenever he saw Melkor, his foe, go by. For if Tulkas is slow to wrath, slow is he also to forget.





> Are the Valar really to blame?


The Valar (Manwë), made a mistake because he was fooled by Melkor. You have to remember too that the revolt of the Noldor was beneficial to the Valar. Yet, the revolt had to happen.
From Morgoth's Ring:



> Manwë was the spirit of greatest wisdom and prudence in Arda. He is represented as having had the greatest knowledge of the Music, as a whole, possessed by any one finite mind; and he alone of all persons or minds in that time is represented as having the power of direct recourse to and communication with Eru. He must have grasped with great clarity what even we may perceive dimly: that it was the essential mode of the process of 'history' in Arda that evil should constantly arise, and that out of it new good should constantly come. One especial aspect of this is the strange way in which the evils of the Marrer, or his inheritors, are turned into weapons against evil. If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reestablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth, without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction. And in the meanwhile, Men, or the best elements in Mankind, shaking off his shadow, came into contact with a people who had actually seen and experienced the Blessed Realm.
> The war was successful, and ruin was limited to the small (if beautiful) region of Beleriand. Morgoth was thus actually made captive in physical form, and in that form taken as a mere criminal to Aman and delivered to Námo Mandos as judge – and executioner. He was judged, and eventually taken out of the Blessed Realm and executed: that is killed like one of the Incarnates. It was then made plain (though it must have been understood beforehand by Manwë and Námo) that, though he had 'disseminated' his power (his evil and possessive and rebellious will) far and wide into the matter of Arda, he had lost direct control of this, and all that 'he', as a surviving remnant of integral being, retained as 'himself and under control was the terribly shrunken and reduced spirit that inhabited his self-imposed (but now beloved) body. When that body was destroyed he was weak and utterly 'houseless', and for that time at a loss and 'unanchored' as it were. We read that he was then thrust out into the Void.


The Valar had some responsability on the matter, but it was Fëanor and the Noldor who were the direct responsibles for the Revolt. Manwë, in some way perceived that it was necessary.


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## Gothmog (Oct 5, 2002)

Ancalagon.
Oh Mighty Dragon. I have already said about the power of Melkor. I agree that he was the mightiest of the Ainur who came to Middle-earth and it was because of his malice and yes his genius that the rebellion took place. However, there are a couple of points to look at.

I rest the blame upon the Noldor and Féanor because it was they who allowed the lies of Melkor to work.


> The Vanyar indeed held him in suspicion, for they dwelt in the light of the trees and were content; and to the Teleri he gave small heed, thinking them of little worth, tools too weak for his designs.


 From The Silmarillion: Chapter 6: of Féanor and the Unchaining of Melkor

We do not know how the Teleri would have reacted to Melkor’s lies but it seems that the Vanyar were not so easily deceived. Perhaps The Noldor were searching too hard for any knowledge and became the perfect mark for the con artist supreme that Melkor was.


> But the Noldor took delight in the hidden knowledge that he could reveal to them; and some hearkened to words that it would have been better for them never to have heard.


 From The Silmarillion: Chapter 6: of Féanor and the Unchaining of Melkor

As for Melkor being a Valar.


> The Great among these spirits the Elves name the Valar, the Powers of Arda, and Men have often called them gods. The Lords of the Valar are seven; and the Valier the Queens of the Valar, are seven also. These were their names in the Elvish tongue as it was spoken in Valinor, though they have other names in the speech of the Elves in Middle-earth, and their names among Men are manifold. The names of the Lords in due order are: Manwë, Ulmo, Aulë, Oromë, Mandos, Lórien, and Tulkas; and the names of the Queens are: Varda, Yavanna, Nienna, Estë, Vairë, Vána, and Nessa. Melkor is counted no longer among the Valar, and his name is not spoken upon Earth.


 From The Silmarillion: The Valaquenta: Account of the Valar and Maiar according to the lore of the Eldar

I submit that since according to the Lore of the Eldar there were Seven Lords and Seven Queens of the Valar, Melkor was considered to be not Valar and I believe that this was from the time of his first rebellion which resulted in the destruction of Uttumno and his imprisonment in the Halls of Mandos. I can not see how the elves would consider one who was a prisoner of the Valar to be a Vala himself.

Therefore, the Valar were not at fault and while Melkor was indeed behind the rebellion of the Noldor and of Féanor himself, it was the overly open ears of the Noldor that allowed this to happen and opened the way for the troubles that were to come.

Maedhros. Excellent post, gives much insight into the events. I agree that the Valar had some responsibility in what happened and as you posted.


> The Valar had some responsability on the matter, but it was Fëanor and the Noldor who were the direct responsibles for the Revolt. Manwë, in some way perceived that it was necessary.


If Manwë perceived that it was necessary then the Valar cannot be held to be at fault.


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 5, 2002)

Hm.The truth is somewhere between the two opposite sides.Valar were fooled,all except two believed Melkor had changed.He was "a good boy"for so many years that all thrusted him.The Valar's mistake is that they allowed to be fooled,their guilty because they didn't saw what Melkor was doing in fact.Their belief in the "good" was wrong.Melkor lied them.
Although I like Feanor,and I think he is the greatest,I must confess that his blame is as much as Valar's.He was a weapon in Melkor's hands.


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## Confusticated (Nov 2, 2002)

*cause not blame*

Well I can not blame the Valar since they were doing Iluvatar's will, it is Iluvatar who is to blame. Rather I say that The Valar were a cause of what happend, though not blame. And I did know this a few weeks ago but I have been misusing the word blame. In my narrow-mindedness about Manwe I was too quick to critize him. Maybe I feel bad for what happend to Melkor more than most people do? Also, a deep distrust of authory...I guess these things caused me to go after Manwe unfairly.
I see more now though.

So I think Manwe and crew's actions/inactions were a _cause_ of what happend. For all the reasons that I previously gave for _blame_.
It is Manwe's ignorance of evil which allows him to play his role anyhow, the way I see it. I even started a thread about this.
In fact it was my thought about Manwe which lead me to the realization that he really is nothing more than an instrument. If I am mistaken in this, I can only hope to learn better some day.
Howver, for these same reasons that I do not _blame_ the Valar, maybe I shouldn't blame Melkor, as I think he was as much a tool of Iluvatar as the others.
It seems the cause of a lot of questions being unanswered and the wide variety of interpretations of the causes of things is due to us not knowing just exactly where Iluvatar's will gives over to the will of others.


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## Finduilas (Nov 2, 2002)

Valars were sent to look after Arda and Iluvitar's children.So I think they shouldn't been blamed about not stopping Feanor believing in what he wanted.
It's true he didn't believe in the right thing(in our point of view)but it was his right-to be free.
In today's life free mostly means to be able to believe and talk about what you want.
Past is the same as present.Feanor chose doubt,Valars had to continue without him.
He was the bravest and the strongest,yes,Tolkien said that too and he was expected to make 'good'.But wasn't the flame in his heart too big and easy inflamed.Morgot could light those flames only with words and this is the least thing he could use.
Feanor was very talanted and wanted to be appreciated.He wanted to have his own opinion and people who think the same as him.
I think we shouldn't blame anyone about Feanor's actions.
The one who make desisions soon takes the results.
(I hope you get my point ,I wrote this in a hurry)


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## Grond (Nov 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Finduilas _
> *Valars were sent to look after Arda and Iluvitar's children.So I think they shouldn't been blamed about not stopping Feanor believing in what he wanted.
> It's true he didn't believe in the right thing(in our point of view)but it was his right-to be free.
> In today's life free mostly means to be able to believe and talk about what you want.
> ...


 Finduilas, greatness is oft times measured by actions. All of the great actions can be marred by one evil action. Feanor committed many evil actions. Evil as in murder. Evil as in abandoning his kin. The list goes on.


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## Lhunithiliel (Nov 3, 2002)

> _Gothmog_: I rest the blame upon the Noldor and Féanor because *it was they who allowed the lies* of Melkor to work.


But, Gothmog, how can you *allow* or not to be lied to?! I don't think that a "masterfully" submitted lie would be recognized at the time it is being said, and ESPECIALLY when provided by Melkor and particularly in the form that he used, and the fact that the Eldar knew him to be one of the Gods.... It needs time to pass that the one who has been deceived "opens his eyes" for the truth... and the consequences are usually disastrous.

Now, I wish to say that the topic of this thread to me is a complex of sub-topics - all interrelated and each with a great significance.... So, I feel at a loss where and which to start from...  
I'm saying this because Feanor is one of the characters, who IMO was given a special attention by Tolkien, following the development of the personal drama of this character and pointing out the roots of it.

So, I'll try to look for those "roots" as presented by the author himself.
It all started long ago:
_From HoME - I -
THE COMING OF THE ELVES
AND THE MAKING OF KOR._


> At length it is the word of the Gods that some of the new-comer Eldar be bidden to Valinor, there to speak to Manwe and his people, telling of their coming into the world and of the desires that it awakened in them.
> -----------------
> Let the Eldar dwell among us, and the well of our joy be filled from new springs that may not dry up.
> ----------------
> ...


Surely, the intentions of the Valar were good... Yet this can be questioned from the point of view that they had entered Ea to make Illuvatar's vision complete. But after the disasters in the war with Melkor they just built for themselves a cosy place to live in, leaving in darknss and despair the "outer lands"; and instead of continuing to work on their primary task, they decide to take the "fair beings" (the Elves) to dwell with them in the Blissful Realm (_they surely must have felt lonely!_). I remember I have read a short extract(apart from the above quoted) where it is clearly said that when Manwe spoke his final decision of letting the Eldar come to Aman, this was later the reason for many sorrows and this is considered his greatest mistake. Sorry, I just could not find it to quote it here.
So, there it all started, as I see it..... _not without the help of Tolkien, of course_! 

Another "root" I find in the personal misfortune Feanor had to experience in a very early age - the death of his mother and the second marriage of his father; also the fact that his parents first had brought up him to be proud and authoritative (being the ONLY son) but later he lost this "leadership" in the "contest" for his father's love (at least Feanor felt it this way).
_From Silmarillion, Chapter "Of Feanor" and some of the following therein_:


> In those unhappy things which later came to pass, and in which F&euml;anor was the leader, many saw the effect of this breach within the house of Finw&euml;, judging that if Finw&euml; had endured his loss and been content with the fathering of his mighty son, the courses of F&euml;anor would have been otherwise, and great evil might have been prevented; for the sorrow and the strife in the house of Finw&euml; is graven in the memory of the Noldorin Elves


There how the proud soul of Feanor was "darkened" and "poisoned" by sorrow, by the bitterness of the thought that he was not any more loved and respected by the only parent left to him.... I mean that the personal drama of Feanor had an immense impact on his actions later on. To some extent, his desire to escape from Valinor and gain independence was a desire to escape from the complicated inter-family relations... although OF COURSE *none* of the reasons for his deeds can be taken _separately_ from the other factors - individual and objective.
As I said, Feanor's case is a multi-layer complex of interrelated reasons, that need to be thoroughly and carefully studied ...


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## Confusticated (Nov 3, 2002)

> I mean that the personal drama of Feanor had an immense impact on his actions later on. To some extent, his desire to escape from Valinor and gain independence was a desire to escape from the complicated inter-family relations... although OF COURSE none of the reasons for his deeds can be taken separately from the other factors - individual and objective.


Yeah, to study Feanor's personality based on what we learn in The Silmarillion is not a simple task. Honestly I don't care to dive into it because I don't know enough about psychology and I can not relate to Feanor enough to understand him all that well.
In short I think Feanor wasn't very wise, he was very selfish, close-minded, and unable to keep a cool head.
How the events in life shaped him into someone who would have these faults I do not care.
Do be fair I think someone who does use the reasons for Feanor's faults as an excuse should do the same with Melkor and everyone else for that matter.
I know that you did not say that these reasons are excuses though.
Everything that anyone does is done for a reason and who can wholly understand where someone is coming from.
I can find sympathy for anyone, but I can blame their actions all the same.


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## Lhunithiliel (Nov 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Confusticated _
> In short I think Feanor wasn't very *wise*, he was very selfish, close-minded, and unable to keep a cool head.


Maybe you're right... Considering that _wisdom_ is never associated with _hasty decisions_ and that _wisdom_ is opposite to _emotion_.... But as for the part of Feanor being "close-minded" - this I cannot accept.
Then:


> How the events in life shaped him into someone who would have these faults I do not care.


But should care! These factors are extremely important! 

To me Feanor is much more a *personality* than by most of the Valar! And as such, his deeds have their principal reasons, and his character and therefore - his actions, were formed throughout his development as an individual - living, breathing, thinking, *having his own will*...


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## Confusticated (Nov 3, 2002)

> But should care! These factors are extremely important!


They are important in that they caused Feanor to behave in the way that he did. But for me it is enough to know that he had reasons for his actions. 



> To me Feanor is much more a *personality* than by most of the Valar! And as such, his deeds have their principal reasons, and his character and therefore - his actions, were formed throughout his development as an individual - living, breathing, thinking, *having his own will... *


If by 'personality' you mean that he was unique I agree. I would not say that he is _more_ of a personality because a personality is in my opinion a personality and all persons have one. Rather I would say that his personality was further apart from others'.
As far as deeds have principals and reasons: all people's deeds have reasons, Even if it is nothing other than an apearant whim.
As for his charactor and therefore his actions being formed throughout his developement as an individual: I say this is true all of all people.
And for the Valar? I say that the making of the music was the major part of their developement. Though it is more obscure to us than is the developement of the personality of some elves that we learn about.


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