# frodo in the undying lands



## John (Oct 1, 2021)

When Frodo Arrived In The Undying Lands If He Found Out About The Halls Of Mandos And Decided To Spend The Rest Of His Days Sitting Peacefully In Mandos Halls Would Manwe And Mandos Have Allowed Him? If yes Why? If Not Why?


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## Alcuin (Oct 2, 2021)

Frodo didn’t go to Valinor. He went to the island of Tol Eressëa in the Bay of Eldamar. It was forbidden for mortals to step ashore the coasts of Valinor. (This was in fact one of the charges Irmo Mandos made against Eärendil.) 

In a footnote to _Letter_ 297, Tolkien wrote,
Frodo … as a special grace … [was] granted a purgatorial (but not penal) sojourn in _Eressea_, the Solitary Isle in sight of _Aman_​And in _Letter_ 246, 
Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to heal him – if that could be done, _before he died._ He would have eventually to “pass away”: no mortal could, or can, abide for ever on earth, or within Time. So he went both to a purgatory and to a reward, for a while: a period of reflection and peace and a gaining of a truer understanding of his position in littleness and in greatness, spent still in Time amid the natural beauty of “Arda Unmarred”, the Earth unspoiled by evil.

Bilbo went too. … His companionship was ... necessary for Frodo's sake – it is difficult to imagine a hobbit, even one who had been through Frodo's experiences, being really happy even in an earthly paradise without a companion of his own kind… But he also needed and deserved the favor on his own account. He bore still the mark of the Ring that needed to be finally erased: a trace of pride and personal possessiveness. ​So Frodo went not to Valinor (Aman), but to Tol Eressëa within sight of Eldamar (the coastal region of Valinor inhabited by the Eldar), where he lived and died. The same is true of Bilbo, of Sam, and of Gimli, all of whom were permitted to sail to Eressëa in the Uttermost West, where after a time, they all died.


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## Olorgando (Oct 2, 2021)

Alcuin said:


> So Frodo went not to Valinor (Aman), but to Tol Eressëa within sight of Eldamar (the coastal region of Valinor inhabited by the Eldar), where he lived and died. The same is true of Bilbo, of Sam, and of Gimli, all of whom were permitted to sail to Eressëa in the Uttermost West, where after a time, they all died.


Sam's going over the Sea is a tradition handed down from his daughter Elanor, in her family of the Fairbairns of the Towers, so a bit conjectural.
In 1482 SR Sam was 102, and Frodo, 12 years older, would have been 114 if the two were still to meet in Tol Eressëa. Not impossible, as both Bilbo and Frodo were descendants of two of the Old Took's daughters: Belladonna was Bilbo's mother, and Mirabella Frodo's maternal grandmother.
Gimli, leaving Middle-earth with Legolas in 1541 SR, was 262 at the time, so already a bit above-average age for a Dwarf.
But it's extremely unlikely that he (and Legolas) still found any of his Fellowship Hobbits still alive at the time: Sam would have had to have reached the age of 161, Frodo of 173.

Unless ... _{wild flight of fancy alert! _🤪_ }_

... Eru (through Manwë - and Námo Mandos?) had given the three surviving Ring-bearer Hobbits something like an "Elros-dispensation" ...
In that case even Bilbo, at 251, would just barely have passed half Elros's age (fodder for a fanfic?)


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## grendel (Oct 2, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> (fodder for a fanfic?)


The alliteration is strong with this one...


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 2, 2021)




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## Alcuin (Oct 3, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> In 1482 SR Sam was 102, and Frodo, 12 years older, would have been 114 if the two were still to meet in Tol Eressëa. Not impossible, as both Bilbo and Frodo were descendants of two of the Old Took's daughters...


My guess is that it was Rose who kept Sam grounded. Sam suffered from his passage through Mordor as did Frodo, but not so intensely; and it was only after bearing the Ring for a short while himself that Sam finally had pity for Gollum and – fortunately for Sam and everyone else – showed him mercy. I imagine that Tolkien’s abandoned Epilogue (which he described as “universally condemned” in _Letter_ 144) would, if properly completed, have displayed this: at the end of one version published in _Sauron Defeated_, Sam nearly breaks down, but Rose keeps him stable. Once she died, he no longer had that stabilization, and the only good option open to him was to sail into the West, an outcome first foreshadowed at the beginning of _Fellowship of the Ring_ in “Shadow of the Past”, when Sam “half chant[ed],” “They are sailing, sailing, sailing over the Sea, they are going into the West and leaving us,” and again in “Scouring of the Shire” in _Return of the King_ when Ted Sandyman sneers, “I thought you’d gone off in one o’ them ships you used to prattle about, sailing, sailing. What d’you want to come back for?” 

Bilbo lived out the remainder of his life with the Elves of Eressëa, “an experience of ‘pure Elvishness’,” (_Letter_ 246, same passage as in post #2), but unless as Olorgando opines his life was extended immensely, he soon died and left Arda. That would leave Frodo alone with the Elves nearly sixty years, old, and likely unhappy. The appearance of Sam, also old and now bereft of Rose, would buoy Frodo’s spirits for a few years before he died. In the meantime, Sam would orient himself with Frodo’s help to life among the Elves, and end his life as had Bilbo, with “an experience of ‘pure Elvishness’.” And it is likely Gandalf was there, too, at least part of the time for the sake of Frodo and Sam. Galadriel probably lived on Tol Eressëa, whom Gimli later hoped to see once more. 

Sam is more like Bilbo than Frodo in that he loved stories about Elves, he was not the Ring-Bearer who suffered the unimaginable tortures of the Ring, and he was selected by Gandalf to go “on an unexpected adventure” that as a result left him a little scarred but much wealthier in every respect (i.e., beyond monetary measure).


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 3, 2021)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> View attachment 10396


Ah, Perry Mason.


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## Starbrow (Oct 3, 2021)

I always assumed that even though Frodo received some healing during his stay on Tol Eressea, he was so damaged by his experience, he didn't live for more than a few years there.


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 4, 2021)

Starbrow said:


> I always assumed that even though Frodo received some healing during his stay on Tol Eressea, he was so damaged by his experience, he didn't live for more than a few years there.



It's possible, though Estë is said to be able to heal ALL hurts.


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## Starbrow (Oct 4, 2021)

But Frodo didn't go to Valinor, so how could Este heal him?


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 4, 2021)

Starbrow said:


> But Frodo didn't go to Valinor, so how could Este heal him?


I'd imagine she could go there. I have a feeling nothing and no one could keep Aulë from going to see Gimli when he showed up.


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## Phantom718 (Oct 6, 2021)

ZehnWaters said:


> I'd imagine she could go there. I have a feeling nothing and no one could keep Aulë from going to see Gimli when he showed up.



I was going to bring up something similar. This may have been mentioned elsewhere but I can't find it. If Gandalf and Legolas were permitted to go over to Valinor, did they go there and just leave the others on Tol Eressea? Or could those two (and any others in Valinor) go back and forth to Tol Eressea as they pleased?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 6, 2021)

I'd think that Olorin, his "Gandalf" mission completed, would reume his original Maia form -- whatever that was.


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## Phantom718 (Oct 6, 2021)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I'd think that Olorin, his "Gandalf" mission completed, would reume his original Maia form -- whatever that was.



Would he retain his memory/experiences as Gandalf though? Could Frodo and the others talk to Olorin as if they still knew each other?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 6, 2021)

Good questions -- but beyond my ken. 😁


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## Olorgando (Oct 6, 2021)

Phantom718 said:


> Would he retain his memory/experiences as Gandalf though? Could Frodo and the others talk to Olorin as if they still knew each other?


Here I think the answer would be a definite yes. The Istari were (severely!) limited as long as they were in Middle-earth (including the returned Gandalf, in his incarnation as The White, if less so than as The Grey). If the Elves were living libraries (like Elrond and Galadriel), how much more so would a no longer fettered Maia be? And Olórin had a special liking of the Elves in Valinor, and of the Hobbits in Middle-earth. Add to that Frodo's experience during the quest, which set him apart from *all* Little and Big Folk (and in the latter I would include even Aragorn!) - yes, they would still know each other, I would think.


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## Aukwrist (Oct 6, 2021)

Alcuin said:


> Frodo didn’t go to Valinor. He went to the island of Tol Eressëa in the Bay of Eldamar. It was forbidden for mortals to step ashore the coasts of Valinor. (This was in fact one of the charges Irmo Mandos made against Eärendil.)
> 
> In a footnote to _Letter_ 297, Tolkien wrote,
> ​Frodo … as a special grace … [was] granted a purgatorial (but not penal) sojourn in _Eressea_, the Solitary Isle in sight of _Aman_​​And in _Letter_ 246,
> ​Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to heal him – if that could be done, _before he died._ He would have eventually to “pass away”: no mortal could, or can, abide for ever on earth, or within Time. So he went both to a purgatory and to a reward, for a while: a period of reflection and peace and a gaining of a truer understanding of his position in littleness and in greatness, spent still in Time amid the natural beauty of “Arda Unmarred”, the Earth unspoiled by evil.​​Bilbo went too. … His companionship was ... necessary for Frodo's sake – it is difficult to imagine a hobbit, even one who had been through Frodo's experiences, being really happy even in an earthly paradise without a companion of his own kind… But he also needed and deserved the favor on his own account. He bore still the mark of the Ring that needed to be finally erased: a trace of pride and personal possessiveness.​​So Frodo went not to Valinor (Aman), but to Tol Eressëa within sight of Eldamar (the coastal region of Valinor inhabited by the Eldar), where he lived and died. The same is true of Bilbo, of Sam, and of Gimli, all of whom were permitted to sail to Eressëa in the Uttermost West, where after a time, they all died.


Reading that sent a shiver down my spine.


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