# Would the Hero's of history have made a difference?



## Celebthôl (May 16, 2003)

Well lets look at this, they only cam one at a time, i.e. Húrin on his own Beren on his own, Feanor on his own Fingolfin on his own e.t.c they were never together, but the question is, would if they were around at the final war of the ring have made a difference? from all acounts save Beren, all they did was go on a massive rampage and get killed at the end of it all, so if (as Elrond said somewhere, i think in the CoE) there were a handful of Elve lords or a Hero from days gone by to aid the "goodies" would it have made a difference?

(this probibly makes no sence as i am in a hurry to write it)


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## Beleg (May 16, 2003)

> (this probibly makes no sence as i am in a hurry to write it)



Quite correct: So, would you care to elaborate a bit further?


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## Ithrynluin (May 16, 2003)

Nope, no difference. Perhaps the free peoples of ME would have held out a bit longer under their leadership, but Sauron would overcome them sooner or later, most likely sooner. A good example of a single person's greatness not making a difference would be Glorfindel and the fact that including him in the Fellowship wouldn't change much (or would maybe even be for the worse, since GF is one of the Calaquendi, and maybe he had a 'shine' about him that would give the Fellowship away).


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## Beleg (May 16, 2003)

> Nope, no difference. Perhaps the free peoples of ME would have held out a bit longer under their leadership, but Sauron would overcome them sooner or later, most likely sooner.


I don't agree. I think they would have made some difference. Why, their physical strength and powers would have been much greater then the Warrior's at the time of WOR. They would have proved great captains in the War and many of them were capable enough to face Sauron in a one-to-one. In them Middle-Earth might have found a leader under which all the races could unite and combine their efforts in the strugle against Sauron. 
But, on second though I recongise an element which might have proved their bane; their Pride. Sauron could have used this weakness to great effect. And they might become subject to the lust of the ring...with the return of Feanor, old petty fights might come up....


> A good example of a single person's greatness not making a difference would be Glorfindel


It was only due to his power and greatness that he was able to ward off some of the Ringwraiths for some while, thus saving the life of Frodo. If it wouldn't had been for Glorifindel then Frodo would have been defeated before completeing even the first stage of his journey. I daresay A lesser elf wouldn't have had the power of hindering the cause of the Ringwraiths.


> and maybe he had a 'shine' about him that would give the Fellowship away


And that shine would also quail the hearts of the opposition and lower their morale, a tactic that can be of great strategical benfit in a mass battle. 
IMO the presence of the Elvish Lords of Old and the Edain would have created the same attitude as was created in Hithlum, where the swarthy men feared even the shadow of the elves.


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## Ithrynluin (May 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow _
> *They would have proved great captains in the War and many of them were capable enough to face Sauron in a one-to-one. In them Middle-Earth might have found a leader under which all the races could unite and combine their efforts in the strugle against Sauron.
> *



A-ha. And in trying to get to Sauron, they would have been trampled into the ground by the throngs of orcs and evil men. Sure, Hurin could kill 70 orcs/trolls, and all the Elf lords would prove as excellent warriors as well...but in the big picture - none of this matters. A few individuals could not and would not change anything.


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## Beleg (May 16, 2003)

> A-ha. And in trying to get to Sauron, they would have been trampled into the ground by the throngs of orcs and evil men. Sure, Hurin could kill 70 orcs/trolls, and all the Elf lords would prove as excellent warriors as well...but in the big picture - none of this matters. A few individuals could not and would not change anything.


If Feanor can face Balrogs for many hours, then I can't fathom how the hero's of Old wouldn't have been able to face mere orcs. Their reputation alone would have ensured that Sauron would send only the greatest of his cheifs against them and even they would be hard-pressed against the cheiftains. The valour of the Hero's might move the heart of the retreating or quailing host and the hopes and the morale of the country would be lifted anew. The haze of Sauron's anger and the cloud of his maliace is lifted to an extent and the game now only becomes a tactical affray between two sides in which the batter armed, equiped, trained host will win. They are the posibilities. Lets for one minute put some of the hero's in the battle of the Pelanor field. If the Rohirrim would have been led by lets say Hurin, then due to think that the Witch-King would have found it that easy to deal him a deadly stroke? The King of Rohan wouldn't have died and the Rohirrim wouldn't have scattered. they wouldn't have lost countless lives needlessly. If someone wiser then Denethor would have been sitting at the White Tower then he would have taken the necessary steps against the attack of the East, rather then sitting in his fort and doing nothing. A few individuals can lift the morale of the team. they can better train the team, their face value will be of great effect, namesake and reputation will play a great role.


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## Ithrynluin (May 16, 2003)

From _The Council of Elrond_:



> `Then I cannot help you much, not even with counsel,' said Elrond. `I can foresee very little of your road; and how your task is to be achieved I do not know. The Shadow has crept now to the feet of the Mountains, and draws nigh even to the borders of Greyflood; and under the Shadow all is dark to me. You will meet many foes, some open, and some disguised; and you may find friends upon your way when you least look for it. I will send out messages, such as I can contrive, to those whom I know in the wide world; but so perilous are the lands now become that some may well miscarry, or come no quicker than you yourself.
> `And I will choose you companions to go with you, as far as they will or fortune allows. The number must be few, since your hope is in speed and secrecy. [color=sky blue]Had I a host of Elves in armour of the Elder Days, it would avail little, save to arouse the power of Mordor. '[/color]



If a *host* of Elves in the *armour of the Elder Days* could not even defeat Sauron, but ONLY *arouse* his might, what does that tell you, my dear Beleg? Sauron could not be overcome by any force of war, unless the Powers that be intervened themselves. A handful of mighty individuals wouldn't change anything, as much as you would like it to be so.


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## Beleg (May 16, 2003)

> If a host of Elves in the armour of the Elder Days could not even defeat Sauron, but ONLY arouse his might, what does that tell you, my dear Beleg?



That tells me that the host of the Elves would have been no good in secracy. It doesn't hint about what might happen if a battle starts between the two.

And Dear Ithy, by nomeans am I saying that The Introduction of Hero's would have changed the Outcame of the Battle. It's not possible, but what I am saying is that their presence would have greatly assisted and helped Frodo's cause. So it would have had quite a big part to play in the general struggle of the war of the Ring.


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## Ithrynluin (May 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow _
> *That tells me that the host of the Elves would have been no good in secracy. It doesn't hint about what might happen if a battle starts between the two.
> *



Common sense tells us that a host of anything would be useless for the purpose of secrecy, not that passage. Would Elrond really have to explain to everyone present at the council that a host would NOT pass unnoticed? I think they are quite capable of figuring that out for themselves.   If a host would 'arouse' Mordor, that means there would be battle between them, and the word 'arouse' certainly does not speak in favour of the _host of elves_.



> It's not possible, but what I am saying is that their presence would have greatly assisted and helped Frodo's cause. So it would have had quite a big part to play in the general struggle of the war of the Ring.



Yes, in small individual feats, they could help. But good could only overcome evil if the ring was cast in the fires of the Orodruin. None of these heroes could contribute much to that, if anything at all. So in the big picture their presence would have been futile. And who knows if one of them would have hungered for the ring and took it?


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## Beleg (May 16, 2003)

> None of these heroes could contribute much to that, if anything at all.


Right, so saving Frodo's life was of no importance? 



> If a host would 'arouse' Mordor, that means there would be battle between them, and the word 'arouse' certainly does not speak in favour of the host of elves.


Not entirely correct. I can agree with you when you say that Arouse means there would be battle between them, but it is not right in automatically assuming that the battle would bode ill for the elves. A what if is more proper here. 



> Common sense tells us that a host of anything would be useless for the purpose of secrecy, not that passage.



And that passage triggered our common sense so that we knew the Host would be incapable to hold secrecy.


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## Ithrynluin (May 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow _
> *Right, so saving Frodo's life was of no importance?
> *



No of course not. I said they would be very effective in individual feats, especially in helping Frodo overcome the long hard road from The Shire to Rivendell. _Perhaps_ they could have even made a difference (fewer deaths) at the Pelennor, but certainly not the Morannon.



> Not entirely correct. I can agree with you when you say that Arouse means there would be battle between them, but it is not right in automatically assuming that the battle would bode ill for the elves. A what if is more proper here.



I can't help but feel that you're barking up the wrong tree here. If you arouse something, that something is not giving you its full attention, only a small part of it. That passage, to me at least, quite clearly points to the fact that a host of Elves of old would have been useless against the might of Mordor.

P.S. I didn't realize we were having a private debate.


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## Beleg (May 16, 2003)

> A good example of a single person's greatness not making a difference would be Glorfindel





> I said they would be very effective in individual feats,



Partial Contradiction.




> That passage, to me at least, quite clearly points to the fact that a host of Elves of old would have been useless against the might of Mordor.



Agreed, but when mingled with a good number of soldiers it would have proved far more effective in open battle. I am not saying that a host of Elves and Hero's of old would have totally destroyed the whole might of Mordor. It would have just streteched the might of Sauron more. It would have sounded to him more of a threat. Why so? A presence of a Hero of Old would have created anxiousness in Sauron's mind that the person might or mightn't seize the ring and weild it. The anxiousness would have been greater scaled then it was in the case of Aragon. For he would have known the character of the Hero pretty while, while of Aragon he knew only what Aragon revealed in the Plantir. This would have caused in a heavier assualt on the forces of Gondor and the Mordor had been more vacated and perhaps the journey of Frodo might have been easier.

All depends upon might have beens. 

PS: Do you realize that we are ourself speculating upon What-If's?  



> P.S. I didn't realize we were having a private debate.



Hehe..


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## Ithrynluin (May 16, 2003)

> A good example of a single person's greatness not making a difference would be Glorfindel





> I said they would be very effective in individual feats,





> Partial Contradiction.



No contradiction there. The heroes could have worked good individually (like easing Frodo's journey to Rivendell), but in the big picture (which is the overthrow of Sauron), they would have made no big difference.
No greatness could overthrow Sauron. Only the humility and seeming unimportance of two little hobbits.



> I am not saying that a host of Elves and Hero's of old would have totally destroyed the whole might of Mordor.



Just the opposite: they would have been annihilated.


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## Inderjit S (May 17, 2003)

I agree with the both of you in part. But I think these views may add some support to beleg's line of argument:



> Theoden was indeed glad of the news "It is well!" he said "If these kinsmen be in any way like yourself, my lord Aragorn, such thirty knights will be a strength that cannot be counted by heads


 Passing of the Grey Company; RoTK

And also:



> there are names among us that are worth more then a thousand mail clad knights apiece...


 Last Debate; RoTK

And:



> No hat would be no good" said the Wizard "Not without a warrior, or even a hero..."


 The Hobbit; An Unexcpected Party

So mighty people can effect the outcome of a certain event, or bhis new e more worth then a 1000 Knights. But was this the case in the Quest of the Ring? There was a reason why say Glorfindel didn't go, and Legolas, a far less powerful elf did. What exactly would Glorfindel accomplish apart from raise Sauron's might, as ith. points out? Not even Beren or Turin could've hurt Shelob like Sam did, as Tolkien points out. But then again what if a powerful individual like Gandalf had been free to fight the Witch-King instead of beign forced to save Faramir? But then again what would saving Theoden from death actually accomplish? And it wasn't theoden's fault that snowmane had been shot so he coudln't fight the witchking. IMO, at that moment, Theoden was as powerful as any man, apart from Hurin or Turin maybe.

Though I think ith. summed it up brilliantly:



> No greatness could overthrow Sauron. Only the humility and seeming unimportance of two little hobbits.


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## Beleg (May 17, 2003)

I agree with Both Ithr and Inder that these Great people along cound't have destroyed the Ring, thus Finishing Sauron forever, but they could have helped in making things easier for the hobbits in order to do so, and that their presense would have had a sure impetus on the conditions, namesake or real power, it would have placed some Doubt in Sauron's mind.


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## Confusticated (Jun 2, 2003)

I think they would have whooped Sauron.

He could be killed.

So why couldn't they?

And as I told ithrynluin before, Glorfindel would have drilled through Sauron's armies with a sword in each hand, and spinning helicopter style, and Fingolfin would have sliced through at his side taking off heads this way and that was he went, and Hurin and whatnot, and Feanor and Aegnor and Maedhros and Ecthelion would have been jumping for joy over the armies, landing from time to time on the head of some troll, blade first, or axe first. 

Then a fight would break out between Feanor and Glorfindel as to who gets to take down Sauron, then Ecthelion would jump in along side Glorfindel but Feanor would take both of the balrog boys out, and while they are at it, Hurin, Aegnor, and Fingolfin and Maedhros and them, would swoop in and take Sauron down, but not before he curles up in a fetal position and and has a good whimper.

PS: Fingon, Angrod and others would be there too!


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## Ithrynluin (Jun 2, 2003)

That's a nice, entertaining story you conjured up there, Nommie!


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## Beleg (Jun 2, 2003)

> Fingon, Angrod and others would be there too!



Why not Mr. Finrod?


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## Confusticated (Jun 2, 2003)

May he is included in "others". 


He doesn't strike me as being too vengeful, and especially if his brothers uncles and cousins are taking care of it anyhow.


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## Lantarion (Jun 3, 2003)

Haha.. 
I'd really like to see that fight you described Nóm.. That would be so incredibly sweeet.. 
ithryn: Nommie?!  

I think what the presence of such great characters would have contributed to would have been the morale of all the people present and involved. To have such legendary people actually by your side fighting would be the ultimate encouraging factor, IMO!
But I also think that as long as Sauron didn't have the Ring they would have mowed his forces down. The very rumour of Túrin, and the very sight of his terrible Dwarven battle-mask and Gurthang would be enough to freeze half the armies of darkness!


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## Celebthôl (Jun 3, 2003)

I agree there, that would be awesome to see 

It would spur all the good side on to do deeds of renown  ooooh kewl


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