# Mannish Traditions



## Elthir (Oct 26, 2019)

In another thread, Gando parenthetically posted:_ "(and never mind his "Mannish tradition" delusion, which simply doesn't work with Bilbo's, Frodo's and Sam's "Red Book of Westmarch")._

Why not?

Been very busy of late but this topic interests me. I'll try to get back to it when I can. If the thread gets any responses from you or anyone else, 
that is!

🐾


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## Alcuin (Oct 27, 2019)

Galin said:


> _(and never mind his "Mannish tradition" delusion, which simply doesn't work with Bilbo's, Frodo's and Sam's "Red Book of Westmarch")._


Did I miss something important? Wouldn’t the Red Book of Westmarch count as a “Hobbitish” and “Mannish” mixed tradition? There are Elvish, Mannish, and mixed traditions concerning the pre-First Age, First Age, and Second Age; and kinda-Elvish (Faithful), mixed-Mannish, and Mannish traditions of the Downfall of Númenor as well. Are we mixing traditions or apples and oranges? I must have missed something…


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## Olorgando (Oct 27, 2019)

JRRT's pretense is that he is basically translating Bilbo's, Frodo's and Sam's writings, Frodo (with help from Sam) about LoTR, Bilbo for TH. But there is the mention of Bilbo's "Translations from Elvish", said to be rather thicker than LoTR and TH combined - and this would mean The Sil. Bilbo was at the best source available - Elrond's Rivendell. Elrond himself was a huge walking, talking library of three Ages of Middle-earth (and accepting Glorfindel of Rivendell as Glorfindel of Gondolin returned, that takes us way back before even Elrond's birth). Where and how is "Mannish tradition" supposed to have crept in, polluting and corrupting writings Bilbo derived from Rivendell? In the normal course of human (including Hobbits) "history writing", thigs can get awfully mixed up. Bilbo degenerating into the fairy-tale figure of "Mad Baggins"; Frodo totally forgotten in the Shire; "remembered" in Minas Tirith as having personally gone toe-to-toe with Sauron (at least in folklore tradition). This would have led to a very confused account of TH and LoTR to correspond to the confused accounts supposed to be (at least mixed) "Mannish tradition" in The Sil.
JRRT once famously stated that he wanted to write "a mythology for *England*" (not Great Britain, the UK or even "The Empire"). Post-publication of LoTR, he seems have wanted to get his astronomy, geology, plate tectonics (iffy - that was still being argued about by the specialists), meteorology, botany …. "real-world right". I'm glad he never got around to it.


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## Alcuin (Oct 28, 2019)

Ok. I see. Let’s play this game for a minute.

Go to the end of the Foreword in _Fellowship of the Ring_. Here you will find the following:
​The original Red Book [of Westmarch] has not been preserved, but many copies were made… The most important copy … was kept at Great Smials [in Tuckborough], but it was written in Gondor, probably at the request of the great-grandson of Peregrin, and completed in S.R. 1592 (F.A. 172). Its southern scribe appended this note: Findegil, King’s Writer, finished this work in IV 172. It is an exact copy in all details of the Thain’s Book in Minas Tirith. That book was a copy … of the Red Book of [Westmarch]…​​The Thain’s Book was thus the first copy made of the Red Book and contained much that was later omitted or lost. In Minas Tirith it received much annotation… But the chief importance of Findegil’s copy is that it alone contains the whole of Bilbo’s “Translations from the Elvish”. These three volumes were found to be a work of great skill and learning in which, between 1403 and 1418, he had used all the sources available to him in Rivendell, both living and written. …​​Since Meriadoc and Peregrin became the heads of their great families, and at the same time kept up their connections with Rohan and Gondor, the libraries at Bucklebury and Tuckborough contained much that did not appear in the Red Book. …​​At Great Smials the books were … more important for larger history. None of them was written by Peregrin, but he and his successors collected many manuscripts written by scribes of Gondor: mainly copies or summaries of histories or legends relating to Elendil and his heirs. Only here in the Shire were to be found extensive materials for the history of Númenor and the arising of Sauron. It was probably at Great Smials that _The Tale of Years_ was put together, with the assistance of material collected by Meriadoc. … It is probable that Meriadoc obtained assistance and information from Rivendell, which he visited more than once. There, though Elrond had departed, his sons long remained, together with some of the High-elven folk. …​​What Tolkien feigns here is that he is not translating the tale of the Downfall of the Lord of the Rings and the Return of the King from the Red Book of Westmarch, but from the Thain’s Book. Supposing he had the Thain’s Book, or a copy thereof – and note that the Thain’s Book itself was already a copy of a copy (Jews take _great care_ in copying the Torah, counting the numerical value of each line and comparing it to a known value, like a Hamming code; and I’ve seen the constitution of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, which is on permanent display in Boston: each line has the number of words counted on it, along with scribal notations such as “no corrections” on each page) – so what we consider the Appendices of _Return of the King_, along with much other material, was also copied in Gondor. Moreover, Tolkien says the Tooks gathered a great deal of history, particularly concerning Elendil and presumably Númenor. Ergo, we obtain “Mannish” traditions from early fourth age Gondor along with “Elvish” traditions from Bilbo’s “Translations from the Elvish”. Aragorn no doubt knew both; but exactly what he recorded or had recorded is not known. We can presume that Merry also received good information from Elladan, Elrohir, and Celeborn that he passed along; but we don’t know what else Tolkien “translated” from the cache of material he discovered (presumably at Bodleian Library at Oxford): all we can say is that some of it was clearly “Mannish” rather than “Elvish”. This idea is also reflected in the _Notion Club Papers_ (the posthumously published unfinished and abandoned novel about time travel that Tolkien worked on in conjunction with CS Lewis’ space travel trilogy consisting of _Out of the Silent Planet_, _Perelandra_, and _That Hideous Strength_).

So the conceit is that Tolkien found a previously untranslated cache of literature, translated it, and published it. The presumed cache consisted of material from a mixed bag of sources: first-hand, second- or third-hand, written and oral Elvish tradition (which we should regard as “highly reliable” in the context of the tales, if somewhat biased (i.e., told from an Elvish point of view)), written and oral Mannish tradition (which might run from “highly reliable” to outright “sketchy”), and “mixed” tradition sources.

That conceit would also explain why there are several different versions of the same tale (e.g., “Beren and Lúthien”, “Children of Húrin”, “Downfall of Númenor”), some of which offer contradictory tellings.



Olorgando said:


> JRRT once famously stated that he wanted to write "a mythology for _*England*_" (not Great Britain, the UK or even "The Empire"). Post-publication of LoTR, he seems have wanted to get his astronomy, geology, plate tectonics (iffy - that was still being argued about by the specialists), meteorology, botany …. "real-world right". I'm glad he never got around to it.


Not to mention middens and privy middens!


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## Olorgando (Oct 28, 2019)

Alcuin said:


> Ok. I see. Let’s play this game for a minute.


It took you *one minute* to write all that? Instead of "Smoke On The Water" "Smoke From The Keyboard"? 

For me, JRRT's pedantic perfectionism in writing LOTR is what makes a "mixed tradition" for The Sil and the almost excruciating detail of LoTR not believable taken together. Even very much so his detailed description of the early succession of copies of the Red Book (to Thain's Book, to Findegil's annotated copy) that you quote. While an account written by three Hobbits (LoTR plus prequel) as eyewitness accounts survives the vagaries of time and copy scribal errors, the account collected by the oldest of the three, known to come from a source of great wisdom and reverence, Rivendell (and let us not forget the Grey Havens, whose lord Cirdan makes Elrond look live a veritable teen-ager at the end of the Third Age) gets muddled my Mannish add-ons? Where from? Elendil and his sons weren't lugging a huge Númenórean library with them (it would have to have been a secret library of The Faithful, anyway) with them precariously riding that mega-tsunami from falling Númenor to Middle-earth. So to any scribe in Gondor anything having as source the twin brother of the 70-generation-(or-so)-back ancestor of the ruler - Bilbo’s “Translations from the Elvish” - would have have to have been a source of not a little wonder, and made him very hesitant to add any annotation that might contradict it; not without a comment possibly reflecting negatively on his own received tradition.
Of course ...
Let enough generations pass, as can be surmised from not a few real-world ancient texts (of a niche of which JRRT was very much and expert) and things can get muddled.
Later generations begin not to understand some terms that have fallen out of use. Scribes make errors with words they no longer understand (Beowulf, as JRRT knew very well).
Then there is revisionism. Old concepts are no longer looked on favorably be new Powers that have Become.
Like: after an indeterminate time, that Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin were Hobbits would have seemed unbelievable to later humans (we have an undoubted megalomaniac streak).
More indeterminate time passes; "Hobbit? What's a Hobbit?" They're gone from memory.
Until some ages later (I can never remember: are we supposed to be in the Sixth, Seventh or Eight Age???) some previously unobtrusive Oxford professor "channels" something in what may be around the year 1930 of that indeterminate age (or burrows in the dustiest recesses of the Bodleian Library, as you suggest).
The near perfection of LoTR and the Mannish tradition muddle remind me of - well - retrieving the naturally unscathed Silmaril from dead Carcharoth's belly, which would be the LoTR.
The Sil - nah, use your own imagination, or not.
Perhaps, in a nutshell, a have-your-cake-and-eat-it situation …


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## Alcuin (Oct 28, 2019)

Hey, it’s a literary conceit, not real history. And real history shows up in strange ways: what about teenage Bedouin shepherds throwing rocks into a cave and finding thousands of ancient scrolls? What about the sixteenth-century engineer digging a drainage channel who found a buried wall and rediscovered Pompeii? Or, you could find a fourteenth-century icon in your grandmother’s kitchen in France that sells for €24 million. It happens. Think about the slow discovery of the battle fought some 33 centuries ago along the Tollense river. 

Libraries and museums are full of old stuff that’s been misidentified, untranslated, misdated, undated, misunderstood, not understood: that’s what they’re for! 

When I was a kid in the 1960s, all the archeologists and sociologists swore up and down that the Maya were ruled by peaceful astronomer-priests. It wasn’t until about 30 years ago that anyone could read Mayan glyphs. Think about how long it took people to decipher Egyptian hieroglyphs. So far, no one can read the Minoans’ Linear A texts. 

For me, Tolkien’s literary conceit works. And that cake – it’s pretty good! Isn’t the whole purpose of having cake to eat and enjoy it?


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## Erestor Arcamen (Oct 29, 2019)

Alcuin said:


> For me, Tolkien’s literary conceit works. And that cake – it’s pretty good! Isn’t the whole purpose of having cake to eat and enjoy it?



Mmh cake, I do like good cake.



Olorgando said:


> Until some ages later (I can never remember: are we supposed to be in the Sixth, Seventh or Eight Age???) some previously unobtrusive Oxford professor "channels" something in what may be around the year 1930 of that indeterminate age (or burrows in the dustiest recesses of the Bodleian Library, as you suggest).



In 1958-ish, Tolkien said he thought we were at the end of the Sixth age or in the Seventh. Being 61 years ago, if ages have quickened I guess we could be in the Eighth or Ninth by now?


> [1] I imagine the gap to be about 6000 years : that is we are now at the end of the Fifth Age, if the Ages were of about the same length as S.A. and T.A. But they have, I think, quickened; and I imagine we are actually at the end of the Sixth Age, or in the Seventh.


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## Olorgando (Oct 29, 2019)

Alcuin said:


> For me, Tolkien’s literary conceit works.


The conceit as in the published works LoTR and The Sil (TH hardly concerns itself with such things), yes. But, correct me if I'm wrong, the "Mannish tradition" stuff is basically in the last three volumes of HoMe, starting with "Morgoth's Ring", and there especially the last section "Myths Transformed". I don't think much of this - of his "new astronomy" practically nothing - made it into the published Sil. *That later* conceit of his would have been quite difficult to harmonize with his foreword in "Fellowship". As I have theorized before, the Books of Lost Tales would have extended at least up to volume 5 "The Lost Road"; in extremity all the way to volume 9 "Sauron Defeated"; we might have been faced with a LoTR 2.0 (we already basically have a TH 1.5). Some of what JRRT was musing about for the "astronomy" started having a touch of C.S. Lewis's "Cosmic Trilogy" about them for me. Maybe it's just me, but I definitely prefer JRRT using Beowulf, The Kalevala, the two Eddas etc. as source material to "seasoning" his legendarium with a pinch of C.S. Lewis … 🤢


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## Elthir (Oct 31, 2019)

Olorgando said:


> The conceit as in the published works LoTR and The Sil (TH hardly concerns itself with such things), yes.



I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this last bit, but in any case, I think _The Hobbit_ sits firmly enough in the conceit as well: even the First Edition is given an internal explanation so that it too, is an ancient text of Bilbo's, translated by JRR Tolkien.



> But, correct me if I'm wrong, the "Mannish tradition" stuff is basically in the last three volumes of HoMe, starting with "Morgoth's Ring", and there especially the last section "Myths Transformed". I don't think much of this - of his "new astronomy" practically nothing - made it into the published Sil.




If you are talking, at least in part, about the specific texts in _Myths Transformed_ that deal with a pre-existing sun, the Dome of Varda and so on, these are, in my opinion, Tolkien's attempt at a new Elvish Silmarillion (generally speaking here), as Tolkien had come to think that the Elves West Over Sea would have been better educated about various matters.

At some point I think Tolkien realized (Christopher Tolkien himself comments about wondering why his father did not realize that he had essentially found his solution at the general time of writing certain texts in MT) by dropping the old transmission [Elfwine/Eresesa], and reimagining _Quenta Silmarillion_ (for example) as a largely Mannish text, that he could then preserve some of his favorite pats of QS. In short, QS becomes a largely Mannish tradition. And the Legendarium as a whole will include Mannish traditions, Mixed traditions, and Elvish traditions.

I stumbled across the following from JRRT (letter 276 to Richard Plotz). First, I can't recall any reference to Elfwine dating to after the later 1950s early 1960s "phase". The fact that some sort of Elfwine scenario was in the mix even after the _first edition_ Lord of the Rings was published brings up its own questions, but anyway I emphasize the first edition here because Bilbo's translations are said to be some books of lore that he gave to Frodo -- while two notable Elder Days references come along in the second, revised edition of the 1960s.

I note in *1962* The _Adventures of Tom Bombadil_ is published, and reveals that Rivendell holds Elvish and Numenorean Lore, and a Tale of Turin and Mim is referred to as Numenorean.

*1965, 25 July* Tolkien sends his new text, _Note On The shire Records,_ to Houghton Mifflin Company, for insertion after the Prologue to the revised edition. So now the reader learns that Bilbo's Translations From The Elvish were _"almost entirely concerned with the Elder Days"_. And JRRT ultimately added (in Appendix A, _revised_ edition) that the _ancient legends of the First Age were Bilbo's chief interest._* 1965, 12 September *Tolkien replies to Mr. Plotz, in which he mentions the Numenorean Tale _The Mariner's Wife,_ adding: "This is supposed to have been preserved in the Downfall, when most of Numenorean lore was lost except that that dealt with the First Age, because it tells how Numenor became involved in the politics of Middle-earth."





So, if I read the dates correctly, Tolkien said this less that two months after the new _Note On The Shire Records_ is sent to publishers.

Jump to a late text (other examples exist): "As is seen in The Silmarillion. This is not an Eldarin title or work. It is a compilation, probably made in Numenor, which includes (in prose) the four great tales or lays of the heroes of the Atani, of which "The Children of Hurin" was probably composed already in Beleriand in the First Age, but necessarily is preceded by an account of Feanor and his making of the Silmarils. All however are "Mannish" works." JRRT, The Shibboleth of Feanor, note 17, The Peoples of Middle-Earth


Anyway, I have more to say, but had a moment to pop in and post at least this much for possible chewing on, at least, if anyone is hungry enough for this particular stuff


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## Olorgando (Nov 1, 2019)

"The Mariner's Wife", Aldarion and Erendis, would actually be pure Mannish tradition, concerning Númenórean affairs. But I don't see the Númenóreans as having any accounts of the First Age that they did not get from the Elves. Let's not forget that the early Edain were probably at best on a cultural level of the Rohirrim, possibly even "only" that of the latter's predecessors the Éothéod. They did not have much time to gather lore, being much more short-lived than they later became as a gift in Númenor, involved in constant warfare, then enslavement by the Easterlings. At the end of the First Age, they must have been a much decimated remnant, who then grew to an entirely different stature in Númenor. No, the dear old Professor may be spinning in his grave, but his mannish tradition has more holes in it than the proverbial Swiss cheese for me.


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## Alcuin (Nov 1, 2019)

I think that living among the Eldar enriched the lives and character of the Edain. Bëor was called “the Old” because he was, according to the measure of the first Edain, old indeed. When he died aged 93, he had been in the service of King Finrod 44 years. The last sentence of the chapter “Of the Coming of Men into the West” in _The Silmarillion_ reads,
​“[T]he Edain of old learned swiftly of the Eldar all such art and knowledge as they could receive, and their sons increased in wisdom and skill, until they far surpassed all others of Mankind, who dwelt still east of the mountains and had not seen the Eldar, nor looked upon the faces that had beheld the Light of Valinor.”​​So centuries before they journeyed to Númenor at the end of the First Age, the Edain had already begun to change under the influence of the Noldor and Sindar, whose way of life they emulated and whose arts and sciences they learned.

No doubt the first “Edain were probably at best on a cultural level of the Rohirrim, possibly even ‘only’ that of the latter's predecessors the Éothéod.” Aragorn himself says as much in his description of the Rohirrim as the Three Hunters awaited Éomer and his éored on the hill in Rohan: “wise but unlearned, writing no books but singing many songs, after the manner of the children of Men before the Dark Years.” But under the tutelage of the Eldar, the Edain soon learned to speak Elvish and to read and write, the House of Bëor abandoning even its own native tongue for Sindarin. (Only the House of Hador retained its native language, which became the source of Adûnaic and thus of Westron, the Common Speech, in _Lord of the Rings_.) All that Men did and experienced in the First Age they probably began to write down, though much of that was no doubt lost in the War of Wrath, as was most of what the Noldor brought with them or made in Middle-earth, and most of what the Sindar had. Songs are long remembered, though, and the songs of Men and Elves were recalled and recited as history; and the memory of the Elves in those days was very accurate, so that Men could reconstruct their histories in accordance with Elvish memory. Moreover, the Eldar of Tol Eressëa (and perhaps even of Eldamar) brought with them written histories and memories from Valinor as well as Middle-earth; Pengoloð moreover sojourned with the Númenóreans for more than a century after the ruin of Eregion in the Second Age on his way to Tol Eressëa, and he taught them much from his vast store of knowledge.

So yes, in a way the whole legendarium is a “mixed tradition,” but I cannot see how Tolkien envisioned moving Bilbo’s “Translations from the Elvish”, which he composed in the House of Elrond with Elrond’s blessing (and presumably his assistance), from “Elvish tradition.” And unlike Galin, whose opinion and position I esteem, I do not concur that Tolkien’s last written position should necessarily be taken as decisive. In that I may be in the minority, but heresy while interpreting Tolkien is hardly a damnable offense; besides, it opens interpretive possibilities otherwise closed; but mostly, it avoids conflicts with material Tolkien published during his lifetime, particularly regarding Galadriel’s situation vis-à-vis her potentially returning to Valinor. So that leaves me partly in accord with you as well, Olorgando: I can reject the “new astronomy” out of hand without doing any damage or violence to my own understanding of the mythos.

And so like Bernard Woolley, I can with a clear conscience choose from a jumble of ideas a version which represents Tolkien’s views as he would, on reflection, have liked them to emerge – at least as satisfies my tastes and opinions.






​


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## Elthir (Nov 1, 2019)

Olorgando said:


> "The Mariner's Wife", Aldarion and Erendis, would actually be pure Mannish tradition, concerning Númenórean affairs.




Not that you said otherwise, but there's nothing wrong with that (when looking for holes in the idea), given Tolkien's comments above, at least. _The Drowning of Anadune_ is also a Mannish tradition of the Downfall of Numenor, for example.



> But I don't see the Númenóreans as having any accounts of the First Age that they did not get from the Elves.




Yet the new mode of transmission allows for far more room than the Elfwine tradition -- where a man learns the QS directly from Elvish Tol Eressea, and transcribes it faithfully into Old English. Note how Tolkien describes the new mode, from Morgoth's Ring (my emphasis here):

CJRT: "It is remarkable that he never at this time seems to have felt that what he said in this present note provided a resolution of the problem he believed to exist." [referring to Tolkien's...]

_JRRT "What we have in the Silmarillion, etc. are traditions... handed on by Men in Numenor and later in Middle-earth (Arnor and Gondor); but already far back -- from the first association of the Dunedain and Elf-friends with the Eldar of Beleriand -- blended and confused with their own Mannnish myths and cosmic ideas." _JRR Tolkien, Myths Transformed, Text I, Morgoth's Ring


And again this is not simply late stuff from posthumously published tales, but author published material, published in between the first and second editions of The Lord of the Rings; "These two pieces [poems 6 and 16], therefore, are only re-handlings of Southern matter, though this may have reached Bilbo by way of Rivendell. No. 14 also depends upon the lore of Rivendell, Elvish and Numenorean, concerning the heroic days of the end of the First Age; it seems to contain echoes of the Numenorean tale of Turin and Mim the Dwarf." [RRT, Adventures of Tom Bombadil]. 

Tolkien also reclassified the _Tale of Beren and Luthien_ as Numenorean. I don't quite see the specific holes yet, that you speak of.



> *Alcuin* posted: So yes, in a way the whole legendarium is a “mixed tradition,” but I cannot see how Tolkien envisioned moving Bilbo’s “Translations from the Elvish”, which he composed in the House of Elrond with Elrond’s blessing (and presumably his assistance), from “Elvish tradition.”




But I would say Bilbo or other Mannish scribes _also_ had Elvish traditions to translate. Question is, what were these materials? One text that comes to mind is _The Awakening of the Quendi_, which Tolkien no doubt gives a very Elvish history to, and in my opinion Bilbo would love to translate this. I can think of others, but for now there's arguably that.

As for Tolkien's last written position, I guess I'll put it this way, when one begins to add up the number of late or very late notes (or something from a late letter, for instance) about this matter, in my opinion we appear to get a fuller picture than at least some ideas that many folks seem to take for granted as Middle-earthian "fact". Moreover, the new idea actually solves Tolkien's "problem" that he saw arising, and now he could "play' with some big issues like the sun and moon, or a flat versus always round earth, in more Elvishy texts -- descriptions that might even go unnoticed at first by an enchanted reader (at least the first reading maybe). 

Also, here's a beautiful twist in my opinion: To my mind Tolkien introduces the Western Elvish point of view about the original shape of the world in a Mannish text! Awesome!




> ( . . .) but mostly, it avoids conflicts with material Tolkien published during his lifetime, particularly regarding Galadriel’s situation vis-à-vis her potentially returning to Valinor.




Ah! You've brought up my lovely Galadriel so I'm interested in what you mean here. If it helps, late texts have weight in my opinion, but yet I think they must bow to already published (by author) material. Then again, what is the already published material in question, and will the experienced Tolkien reader always interpret a given statement on its own -- meaning, by trying to block out other materials he or she might know _only_ through posthumously published works?


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## Alcuin (Nov 8, 2019)

Galin said:


> Alcuin said:
> 
> 
> > .. but mostly, it avoids conflicts with material Tolkien published during his lifetime, particularly regarding Galadriel’s situation vis-à-vis her potentially returning to Valinor.
> ...


Researching my answer in the thread “Arwen's spot on the boat”, I came across what I had been looking for without success since your question.

In the draft that is _Letter_ 297, written sometime around August 1967, Tolkien writes,
​The attempt of _Eärendil_ to cross _Ëar_ was against the Ban of the Valar prohibiting all Men to attempt to set foot on _Aman_, and against the later special ban prohibiting the Exiled Elves, followers of the rebellious Fëanor, from returning: referred to in Galadriel’s lament. The Valar listened to the pleading of _Eärendil_ on behalf of Elves and Men (both his kin), and sent a great host to their aid. … The Exiles were allowed to return — save for a few chief actors in the rebellion of whom at the time of the _L[ord of the ]R[ings]_ only _Galadriel_ remained. …​​This is followed immediately by a footnote (Tolkien’s ninth in the letter, if I have counted correctly), which reads,
​At the time of her lament in Lórien [Galadriel] believed this to be perennial, as long as Earth endured. Hence she concludes her lament with a wish or prayer that Frodo may as a special grace be granted a purgatorial (but not penal) sojourn in _Eressëa_, the Solitary Isle in sight of _Aman_, though for her the way is closed. … Her prayer was granted – but also her personal ban was lifted, in reward for her services against Sauron, and above all for her rejection of the temptation to take the Ring when offered to her. So at the end we see her taking ship.​​In _The Road Goes Ever On_, Tolkien wrote,
​After the overthrow of Morgoth at the end of the First Age a ban was set upon [Galadriel’s] return, and she had replied proudly that she had no wish to do so.​​*This position is canon: It was published by Tolkien during his lifetime with his approval.* This is no mistake: it was Tolkien’s position when he published _The Fellowship of the Ring_ in 1954, and it was Tolkien’s position when he published _The Road Goes Ever On_ first in the US in October 1967 and then in the UK in March 1968.

If we turn to _Unfinished Tales_ and the section “The History of Galadriel and Celeborn”, Christopher Tolkien writes,
​[W]hen Frodo offered the One Ring to Galadriel [in Lothlórien, she replied]: "And now at last it comes. You will give me the Ring freely! In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen.”​​In _The Silmarillion_ it is told … that at the time of the rebellion of the Noldor in Valinor Galadriel​​was eager to be gone. No oaths she swore, but the words of Fëanor concerning Middle-earth kindled her heart, for she longed to see the wide unguarded lands and to rule there a realm at her own will.​
Two paragraphs later, Christopher Tolkien writes,
​A wholly different story, adumbrated but never told, of Galadriel’s conduct at the time of the rebellion of the Noldor appears in a very late and partly illegible note: the last writing of my father's on the subject of Galadriel and Celeborn, and probably the last on Middle-earth and Valinor, set down in the last month of his life.​​Sometime between August 1967 and his death in September 1973, a mere six years, Tolkien’s view of Galadriel took an astonishing turn. Galadriel becomes less proud, less aggressive, less willful. She becomes almost an Elven saint, a very model of the Virgin Mary.

I’m sorry, but I can’t reconcile this telling of Galadriel with the story that’s told in _The Lord of the Rings_. Galadriel was the only exiled Ñoldo specifically and uniquely _barred_ from returning to the West. She says so in her lament when the Company of the Ring leaves Lórien. Tolkien says so in _The Road Goes Ever On_.

To me, we cannot simply accept whatever Tolkien wrote last as the “final word” on a subject. Christopher Tolkien writes in the Introduction to _Unfinished Tales_ that,
​When the author has ceased to publish his works himself, after subjecting them to his own detailed criticism and comparison, the further knowledge of Middle-earth to be found in his unpublished writings will often conflict with what is already “known”; and new elements set into the existing edifice will in such cases tend to contribute less to the history of the invented world itself than to the history of its invention.​​I think this is _clearly_ one such case: Galadriel was _barred_ by the Valar from returning to the West because of her part in the Rebellion of the Noldor. Exactly what part she played, I don’t know: that’s not clear, except that she definitely was _not_ in league with her uncle, Fëanor, and she definitely did _not_ participate in the Kin-Slaying at Alqualondë, unless it was to protect her kinsmen, the Teleri, from the assault of Fëanor and his bloody-minded followers; but she was nevertheless instrumental in the Rebellion of the Noldor and their departure from Valinor, and so was forbidden to return home.


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## Olorgando (Nov 8, 2019)

Galin said:


> … Ah! You've brought up my lovely Galadriel so I'm interested in what you mean here. ...





Alcuin said:


> Researching my answer in the thread “Arwen's spot on the boat”, I came across what I had been looking for without success since your question. ...


As, this is more like it. Sitting back in a ringside seat, so to speak, reading two of our "walking libraries" exchanging copious quotes. 😁
I'm guessing you both have privately cross-indexed all of this stuff?
My problem probably is that, while I probably got a late-1980s early start on HoMe (my paperback edition of vol. 3 "Lays" is © 1987), getting my greedy little hands on the entire series was a bit of a hit-or-miss affair, with an early 1990s vacation by own car to Ireland (and the return trip, which left us with a few hour to stroll around Hull in England before entering the Ferry to Rotterdam) yielding a large haul. I actually ordered (had to order) the 1996 vol. 12 PoMe, the only hardcover and Houghton Mifflin book in my library. But since that time, I have not been re-reading this stuff like I did LoTR. So my memory is likely closer to what CRT had to deal with, sift through while editing everything from the Sil onwards.

Seriously, assuming this 2002 book is still to be had, would it be a good idea to try and get "Volume 13", "The History of Middle-earth: Index"? 🤔


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## Elthir (Nov 8, 2019)

Ah, thanks Alcuin. And I think we actually agree on this point of canon. Earlier you noted: "And unlike Galin ( . . .) I do not concur that Tolkien’s last written position should necessarily be taken as decisive."

And as I might have given the wrong impression, I responded (in part): "Ah! You've brought up my lovely Galadriel so I'm interested in what you mean here. If it helps, late texts have weight in my opinion, but yet I think they must bow to already published (by author) material." 

Here, with emphasis on the part after "but"   



Alcuin said:


> ( . . .) Sometime between August 1967 and his death in September 1973, a mere six years, Tolkien’s view of Galadriel took an astonishing turn. Galadriel becomes less proud, less aggressive, less willful. She becomes almost an Elven saint, a very model of the Virgin Mary.



So to put a quick stamp on it: I'll have no "unstained" Galadriel (letter 353 to Lord Halsbury, August 1973); and no Telerin-from-Aman Celeborn neether, incidentally.

I'll have my RGEO (and so on) Galadriel. And I'd like to add a bit more in response to your post (and Gando's), but I'm still pressed for time. Hope to get back to this when I can. And if I remember! 

🐾


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## Alcuin (Nov 8, 2019)

Galin said:


> "...If it helps, late texts have weight in my opinion, but yet I think they must bow to already published (by author) material."
> ...
> So to put a quick stamp on it: I'll have no "unstained" Galadriel (letter 353 to Lord Halsbury, August 1973); and no Telerin-from-Aman Celeborn neether, incidentally.
> 
> I'll have my RGEO (and so on) Galadriel...


We are in complete agreement on both points, then.


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## Olorgando (Nov 9, 2019)

Galin said:


> … And I'd like to add a bit more in response to your post (and Gando's), ...


I've been wondering about your use (very Hobbit-like  ) of a shortened version of my membership alias.
It is exactly the one that became common on CoE (perhaps a bit less so on A-U, there mostly used by those members who also post on CoE).
My alias on those two sites is identical, for TTF I decided to reverse the order of the G and the O part of it.
But while nicknames derived from the "actual" names usually retain the beginning of the name, you did not follow that "tradition", which would have yielded "Olo" or something of the sort. So I'm just highly curious about your possibly being (though sadly, the past tense has become increasingly more applicable) a member on one or both of those sites. 🤔


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## CirdanLinweilin (Nov 9, 2019)

Alcuin said:


> This is followed immediately by a footnote (Tolkien’s ninth in the letter, if I have counted correctly), which reads,
> At the time of her lament in Lórien [Galadriel] believed this to be perennial, as long as Earth endured. Hence she concludes her lament with a wish or prayer that Frodo may as a special grace be granted a purgatorial (but not penal) sojourn in _Eressëa_, the Solitary Isle in sight of _Aman_, though for her the way is closed. … Her prayer was granted – but also her personal ban was lifted, in reward for her services against Sauron, and above all for her rejection of the temptation to take the Ring when offered to her. So at the end we see her taking ship.In _The Road Goes Ever On_, Tolkien wrote,
> After the overthrow of Morgoth at the end of the First Age a ban was set upon [Galadriel’s] return, and she had replied proudly that she had no wish to do so.*This position is canon: It was published by Tolkien during his lifetime with his approval.* This is no mistake: it was Tolkien’s position when he published _The Fellowship of the Ring_ in 1954, and it was Tolkien’s position when he published _The Road Goes Ever On_ first in the US in October 1967 and then in the UK in March 1968.


I always liked this version of Galadriel, as it brought a redemption story of sorts to her, and that just makes me happy for her, when finishing up _Return of the King. _



CL


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## Elthir (Jan 9, 2020)

Endorfin let me return today (I gave him coin), mostly so that I could add to this part of the thread.



Alcuin said:


> [snip of quotes backing up the position of Galadriel as being banned from the West]* This position is canon: It was published by Tolkien during his lifetime with his approval.* This is no mistake: it was Tolkien’s position when he published _The Fellowship of the Ring_ in 1954, and it was Tolkien’s position when he published _The Road Goes Ever On_ first in the US in October 1967 and then in the UK in March 1968. ( . . .) Galadriel was the only exiled Ñoldo specifically and uniquely _barred_ from returning to the West.  She says so in her lament when the Company of the Ring leaves Lórien. Tolkien says so in _The Road Goes Ever On_.




As I've already clarified, and as we appear to agree on the point that Tolkien's published word is canon and supersedes even later (arguable) contradictions, I have a question for you Alcuin (not that you have to answer obviously, and anyone can jump in here too of course).
And I've a few of my own opinions to add.

Question: How do you deal -- if indeed you find it problematic in any measure -- with Galadriel's response, given directly after her rejection of the One but before her song and lament: "I pass the test," she said. "I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel."

Over to Nerwen's lament in the next chapter:



_Ah! like gold fall the leaves in the wind,
long years numberless as the wings of trees!
The long years have passed like swift draughts
of the sweet mead in lofty halls
_ _beyond the West, beneath the blue vaults of Varda
wherein the stars tremble
_ _in the voice of her song, holy and queenly.
Who now shall refill the cup for me?

For now the Kindler, Varda, the Queen of the stars,
_ _from Mount Everwhite has uplifted her hands like clouds
_ _and all paths are drowned deep in shadow;
_ _and out of a grey country darkness lies
_ _on the foaming waves between us,
_ _and mist covers the jewels of Calacirya for ever.
_
_Now lost, lost to those of the East is Valimar!
Farewell! Maybe thou shalt find Valimar!
Maybe even thou shalt find it! Farewell!_

No doubt in the 1960s (published in RGEO), JRRT explicitly relates "_Who now shall refill the cup for me?"_ to Galadriel's ban, as well as (from her earlier song in TLOTR) "What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a sea?" Galadriel is the only leader of the Noldorin Exiles to remain alive at the end of the First Age. And no doubt this goes with the 1960s letter Alcuin already quoted as well.

And yet, Christopher Tolkien has expressed the view, if "hesitantly", that he's inclined to think the idea of Galadriel's ban did not exist during the writing of the chapter _Farewell to Lórien_ (Unfinished Tales, History of Galadriel and Celeborn). Which leads me back to Galadriel's statement after rejecting the One, where, at least arguably, she at least seems to speak as if no ban exists.



Another point I'd like to add: not that Alcuin has said otherwise, but in my opinion -- based on certain texts that I don't have to hand at the moment (Endorfin's got 'em) -- as far as I know, Galadriel's part in the defense of Swanhaven is a late (never published by Tolkien himself) notion. It not only does not appear in the constructed Silmarillion (I agree with Christopher Tolkien's decision to leave it out), but if memory serves, it also does not appear in the early 1950s Silmarillion "phase" -- meaning, it seems it was not in play in connection with Galadriel's later words to Melian, and the Finarfinian defense given to Thingol (both scenes written in this phase, and which do appear in the constructed Silmarillion).

Granted, I have no way of reading Tolkien's mind with respect to this -- no way of knowing what JRRT "would have" done, if anything, with the earlier Melian scene for example, if he'd certainly decided to publish this notion of Galadriel defending the Teleri.

This also brings up the question, at least to my mind: in what measure did Galadriel defend Swanhaven? Did she take life? Or would she have, if she felt forced to? Even that question remains unanswered by Tolkien (as yet?) given the brief references from the 1960s, in any case.

And one more thing . . . hey stop!

Time's up! Endorfin drags a momentarily coinless Galin away by his long silver hair


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## Olorgando (Jan 9, 2020)

Galin said:


> And one more thing . . . hey stop!
> 
> Time's up! Endorfin drags a momentary coinless Galin away by his long silver hair


Hey! Endo, knock it off! Or we'll get mazzly to reprogram your user parameters so you get bombarded by an ad every thirty seconds!
And I mean those annoying things that are centered on the site window and cover two thirds of the screen! 👾👾👾


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## Elthir (Jan 10, 2020)

My short-nick is Ando "gate", also the name of tengwa number 5.

And Galin has been banned not for rambling, but for _repetitive _rambling -- in my subjective opinion at least; or in other words, as I see things, or according to my measure . . . that is to say, he rambled over and over, repeating himself needlessly about something in a given time frame that I considered unacceptable. In my view of course. 

Or as I judge the matter.


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## Elthir (Jan 12, 2020)

Just to be clear, Galin's earlier question is with respect to dealing with the scenario from an _internal_ perspective.

And to add to Galadriel's statement after she rejects the One, one could argue that she means to include herself when she explains: "Yet if you succeed, then our power is diminished, and Lothlorien will fade, and the tides of Time will sweep it away. We must depart into the West, or dwindle to a rustic folk of dell and cave, slowly to forget and to be forgotten"

I [Ando] read one work in Mythlore [volume 25 number 3] which argued that this is actually the "stronger" statement of the two. I'm not sure I agree with that: does Galadriel necessarily "have to" include herself in this (what I read as a) fairly sweeping statement _about departing West_?
In the former quote [from Galin's earlier post], she is talking about herself at least.

Also, with respect to Galadriel's lament and so on . . .

. . . in another late work, _Of Dwarves and Men_, Tolkien comments that Galadriel's Farewell was addressed direct to Frodo, " . . . and was an extempore outpouring in free rhythmic style, reflecting the overwhelming increase in her regret and longing, and her personal despair after she had survived the terrible temptation. [...] In the event it proved that it was Galadriel's abnegation of pride and trust in her own powers, and her absolute refusal of any unlawful enhancement of them, that provided the ship to bear her back to her home."

And in yet another late work, _The Shibboleth of Feanor_: "Her Lament — spoken before she knew of the pardon (and indeed honour) that the Valar gave her — harks back to the days of her youth in Valinor and to the darkness of the years of Exile while the Blessed Realm was closed to all the Noldor in Middle- earth"

These noted, both were not published by Tolkien himself, and thus in my opinion, could arguably be discarded in any quest to iron out this "wrinkle" (again, if indeed others find it a wrinkle) from an internal point of view.


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## Alcuin (Jan 12, 2020)

Thank you, Ando-formerly-known-as-Galin. We (you and I) concur: Galadriel’s exile was permanent because of her part as a leader in the Rebellion of the Noldor: she was the last of the Great Elves come from Valinor: all the rest perished in the wars of the First Age.


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## Miguel (Jan 12, 2020)

There were more Noldorin elves that remained in Middle-earth besides Galadriel, not kings but there were more if i'm not mistaken.


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## Elthir (Jan 12, 2020)

Miguel, you're correct that there were Noldorin Elves who remained in Middle-earth after the First Age.

For myself, when Galadriel says she will diminish and pass Over Sea . . . at first I imagined that somehow she knew she'd been pardoned
in this moment (rejecting the One), perhaps something like the message Cirdan received (according to a very late text on Cirdan/Ciryatan) . . .
but that didn't/doesn't square too well with RGEO in my opinion, as both Galadriel's songs come after this statement.

At the moment I simply imagine that Artanis Nerwende Galadriel says she'll pass into the West, but adds to herself (thinking) if she is finally allowed. In other words, this notable moment is not the time to reference/mention/speak about her ban to Frodo or Sam. . .

. . . "Sam" . . . who's real (short form) Westron name was Ban!


I realize this is just my attempt at internal "squaring" (if anyone has other ideas about this, please share), but in any case, this is Frodo's story to write, and at least generally speaking, Frodo arguably has a limited perspective compared to Tolkien-as-translator, who explains Galadriel's ban very clearly enough in RGEO (published by the Master himself), giving an explanation that ties directly into already published text, to boot.

Galin: "The _Revenant_?"

Ando: "Still banned"

Galin: "But surely . . . redemption is possible."


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## Miguel (Jan 12, 2020)

Galin, eres un laberinto, no te entiendo.


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## Alcuin (Jan 13, 2020)

Miguel, there were a fair number of Noldor in Middle-earth at the end of the Third Age, but Galadriel was the last Noldorin descendent of the House of Finwë, the royal house. Gil-galad was the last of that house who claimed to be King of the Noldor. Notice that there were still Elven kings in Middle-earth, Thranduil for instance. And Celebrían and her children with Elrond were also descendants of Finwë, but they were not Noldor: they were Sindar, because Celebrían’s father Celeborn was Sindar. 

Moreover, Galadriel was the only surviving Noldo who was considered by the Ainur to be a “leader” in the Rebellion of the Noldor, whatever her motives might be. _The Road Goes Ever On_, which Tolkien published in his own lifetime to make it “canon”, says that
After the overthrow of Morgoth at the end of the First Age a ban was set upon her return, and she had replied proudly that she had no wish to do so.​In _Unfinished Tales_, Christopher Tolkien reports a letter of his father’s from 1967 in which he wrote,
The [Noldorin] Exiles were allowed to return – save for a few chief actors in the rebellion, of whom at the time of _The Lord of the Rings_ only Galadriel remained. At the time of her Lament in Lórien she believed this to be perennial, as long as the Earth endured. Hence she concludes her lament with a … prayer that Frodo may as a special grace be granted a … sojourn in Eressëa …, though for her the way is closed. Her prayer was granted – but also her personal ban was lifted, in reward for her services against Sauron, and above all for her rejection of the temptation to take the Ring when offered to her. …​It is this telling of the story of Galadriel that informs _The Lord of the Rings_, and that in the final year or two of his life Tolkien thought to undo and rewrite. Galin (or “Ando” if he insists) and I prefer the telling published in Tolkien’s lifetime: it is more poignant, more beautiful, and far sadder than Tolkien’s attempts to retell the tale with a “pristine” Galadriel. Galadriel in _LotR_ is a fallen individual, strong but vulnerable, wisened by long experience and pain and regret. In _Letters_, Tolkien points out that Galadriel is _old_, older by far than Shelob for instance, the example he cites. By the time she meets Frodo, she knows the days of the power of Nenya, the Ring of Adamant that she bears, are drawing to a close, and that she must “dwindle …, slowly to forget and to be forgotten.” When she rejects the Ruling Ring, she has made her choice: whether she is permitted to take ship and go voluntarily or not, she knows her spirit, her _fëa_, will go into the West when her body dies, and that she will surely in Middle-earth through mischance, mistake, or malice under the Dominion of Men and without the powers she had at her disposal until then.
“I will diminish, and go into the West and remain Galadriel.”​Her willingness to reject the Ring when freely offered, to abnegate ambition and renounce power, were her salvation: for she thought Gandalf was dead indeed and gone forever from Middle-earth: when he returned, he learned of her decision and took her home with him. How bitter for Saruman!


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## Miguel (Jan 13, 2020)

Alcuin said:


> there were a fair number of Noldor in Middle-earth at the end of the Third Age



Si, but i was referring to the remaining exiles at the end of 1st age not the 3rd.

Por cierto, does anyone piensa that i'm subtlly racist towards you or something like that?. I have a feeling some are confundidos around here and make assumptions based on their own imagination/malice, looking at things through "his" eyes. I have limited knowledge in history but have been learning more and more recently. I was catholic before, i think, i went to church and all that but then i stopped. I'm not religious, i don't care about any of that. I like John's books, punto. Hablame claro.


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## Alcuin (Jan 13, 2020)

Miguel said:


> Si, but i was referring to the remaining exiles at the end of 1st age not the 3rd.


Gil-galad was born in Middle-earth after his father journeyed from Eldamar in the Rebellion of the Noldor, whether his father was Fingon or Orodreth, so no ban against his sailing into the West was ever set. Galadriel, however, was one of the leaders of the Noldor and also one of the leaders of their Rebellion: she did face a ban on her return; or at least, she did in Tolkien’s mind as late as 1967. 

The only Noldorin descendants of Finwë at the end of the First Age were Galadriel; Gil-galad, who inherited the crown of the Noldor and was their last king in Middle-earth; Maglor son of Fëanor, who seems to have lost his mind after casting his purloined Silmaril into the sea and spent the rest of his life wandering the coasts and singing laments; and Celebrimbor son of Curufin son of Fëanor, who with Galadriel founded Eregion, with Sauron forged the Nine and Seven Rings of Power, and alone forged the Three Rings. 

That means four descendants of Finwë were still alive in Middle-earth when the Second Age began. Celebrimbor died in Second Age 1697 defending the House of the Mírdain in Ost-in-Edhil during its invasion by Sauron in the War of the Elves and Sauron. Maglor died: we are not told when, where, or how, but _if_ he lived through the Second Age, and _if_ he remained wandering the coastlands, then the tsunami that swept the western shores of Middle-earth in the Downfall of Númenor probably took him; but however long he lived, it seems Maglor suffered some Elvish version of insanity, apparently from overwhelming regret. Gil-galad died along with Elendil in Second Age 3441 in personal combat against Sauron on the slopes of Orodruin in the War of the Last Alliance. That leaves only Galadriel at the beginning of the Third Age. 

There were a great many other Noldor at the end of the First Age, but it seems most of them passed over the Sea into the West, ending their self-imposed exile. Those that remained settled mostly in Lindon as the Second Age began: Lindon was all the mainland that remained of Beleriand, though the island of Himling, formerly Maedhros’ fortress of Himring, seems large enough to have been populated, were any Elves so inclined. Early in the Second Age, Galadriel and Celebrimbor set out east across Eriador and settled Eregion, Hollin, a land they could rule without reference to Gil-galad: Ruling her own realm was one of Galadriel’s desires, and one of the driving reasons behind her eagerness to leave Eldamar in the first place: hence her struggle to refuse Frodo’s offer of the One Ring despite thousands of years of reflection upon such a possibility. When Sauron arrived in disguise as Annatar, Giver of Gifts, Galadriel spoke against him, but Celebrimbor and the Mírdain turned against her, and she had to leave Eregion. She passed through Khazad-dûm to Lothlórien on the east side of the Misty Mountains where Amroth ruled. (Amroth may or may not have been her son.) 

During the War of the Elves and Sauron, Gil-galad sent Elrond with some troops to help the Noldor of Eregion, but to no avail: Sauron swept away all resistance, and Elrond and the survivors with him found themselves cut off from escape to Lindon, so he led those survivors to a valley in the northwestern Misty Mountains where he founded Imladris, Rivendell. Rivendell, then, was populated by Noldor of Eregion who survived the attack, Noldor of Lindon who accompanied Elrond, and Sindar of Lindon who accompanied Elrond. It is likely the Elven smiths who reforged Narsil for Aragorn in _The Fellowship of the Ring_ were surviving Noldor of Eregion. 

Finally, there were “Wandering Companies.” Gildor was leading one of these when he and his companions met Frodo, Sam, and Merry. Their conversation indicates that they had homes,
“This is poor fare, … for we are lodging in the greenwood far from our halls. If ever you are our guests at home, we will treat you better.”​but we never learn where their halls were located. Gildor says that “some of our kinsfolk dwell still in peace in Rivendell.” Since these are Noldor – _The Road Goes Ever On_ indicates they were returning from a pilgrimage to the Tower Hills, where they looked into the Palantír of Elendil to see a vision of Eldamar and perhaps of Taniquetil – their “kinsfolk” are also Noldor. Whether the Wandering Companies were nomadic or pilgrims is not clear, since they themselves indicate to Frodo they have more permanent homes. 

So at the end of the Third Age, the Noldor reside in Lindon, Rivendell, and make up some or all of the Wandering Companies. In _Letter_ 347 written late in his life, Tolkien observed,
It may be noted that at the end of the Third Age there were prob[ably] more people (Men) that knew Q[uenya], or spoke S[indarin], than there were Elves who did either! Though dwindling, the population of Minas Tirith and its fiefs must have been much greater than that of Lindon, Rivendell, and Lórien.​This would include not only the Noldor, but also the Sindar. Moreover, the story of Pengoloð the Sage indicates that while his father was a Noldo, his mother was a Sinda: a mixed population of Noldor and Sindar arose in Beleriand. If Minas Tirith could of itself raise an army of about six thousand men, then the population of the city was not likely more than sixty thousand at a maximum, or perhaps twenty-four thousand at a minimum: that might give you a rough idea of the number of Noldor and Sindar remaining in Middle-earth, if there were more Men in Minas Tirith than Eldar anywhere in Middle-earth. (Stephen Wigmore has a good essay on this.) 



Miguel said:


> Por cierto...


Do not speak ill of yourself: Your enemies will gladly save you the trouble.


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## Elthir (Jan 13, 2020)

Alcuin said:


> It is this telling of the story of Galadriel that informs _The Lord of the Rings_, and that in the final year or two of his life Tolkien thought to undo and rewrite. Galin (or “Ando” if he insists) and I prefer the telling published in Tolkien’s lifetime: it is more poignant, more beautiful, and far sadder than Tolkien’s attempts to retell the tale with a “pristine” Galadriel.



Galin _and_ Ando agree 

And we really don't understand why Tolkien wrote his late adumbrated tale. I [Galin] once wrangled with someone over at Minas Tirith forums who claimed that the impetus behind this revision was JRRT's faith, and that _that_ should thus take precedence over Tolkien-published texts. Needless to say I disagreed with the "canon distinction" there, and find the penitent Galadriel no less Catholic/Christian in any case . . . plus, Tolkien had already spoken to the Virgin Mary comparison in nearly the same breath as calling her a penitent (in one of his letters).

And some seemingly take the late adumbrated text as a conscious decision to contradict already published text. I do not, nor do I see (as yet) any evidence for this. For all we know, Tolkien suddenly glanced at a copy of RGEO in his bookcase, said "Oh yeah . . . oops!" and maybe _that's_ why this unstained version never got beyond its "adumbrated state."

Perhaps Lord Halsbury had something to do with this?



> When she rejects the Ruling Ring, she has made her choice: whether she is permitted to take ship and go voluntarily or not, she knows her spirit, her _fëa_, will go into the West when her body dies, and that she will surely in Middle-earth through mischance, mistake, or malice under the Dominion of Men and without the powers she had at her disposal until then.




Hmm. Is this your answer to the question from the Ando/Galin account? If so, I admit I/we never considered it (or did I/we, and forgot?) . . . but then there is the question of bodily fading versus bodily death; or, with bodily death, Mandos versus bodily return in the West . . . but that said, if one is talking about what Galadriel herself _believed_, that's a different animal in any event . . . and with respect to the second consideration, one could point to Finrod, bodily back in Aman at some point. And if not (if it's not intended as your interpretation of Galadriel's statement after her rejection of the One), then never mind what I (possibly we), just wrote.

Incidentally, and not that it matters with respect to your general point regarding the Sindar and Noldor in Beleriand, but according to late text published in _Vinyar Tengwar_, Pengoloð is a Noldo from Aman, and thus wouldn't have a Sindarin mother.


I can make that dog Galin track down the relevant VT description if you like 🐾



> Do not speak ill of yourself: Your enemies will gladly save you the trouble.




I might steal this at some point and act like I didn't (steal it)


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## CirdanLinweilin (Jan 13, 2020)

Alcuin said:


> Do not speak ill of yourself: Your enemies will gladly save you the trouble.


Agreed.


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## CirdanLinweilin (Jan 13, 2020)

Galin said:


> And we really don't understand why Tolkien wrote his late adumbrated tale. I [Galin] once wrangled with someone over at Minas Tirith forums who claimed that the impetus behind this revision was JRRT's faith, and that _that_ should thus take precedence over Tolkien-published texts. Needless to say I disagreed with the "canon distinction" there, and find the penitent Galadriel no less Catholic/Christian in any case . . . plus, Tolkien had already spoken to the Virgin Mary comparison in nearly the same breath as calling her a penitent (in one of his letters).


If anything, her redemption in the published LOTR is _More Catholic, and I am a Catholic saying that. _


CL


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## Miguel (Jan 13, 2020)

Alcuin said:


> Gil-galad was born in Middle-earth after his father journeyed from Eldamar in the Rebellion of the Noldor, whether his father was Fingon or Orodreth, so no ban against his sailing into the West was ever set. Galadriel, however, was one of the leaders of the Noldor and also one of the leaders of their Rebellion: she did face a ban on her return; or at least, she did in Tolkien’s mind as late as 1967.



Again, i'm not talking about Gil-galad or direct descendants of Finwë.



Alcuin said:


> Do not speak ill of yourself: Your enemies will gladly save you the trouble.



No comprendo. Could you explain to me what do you mean with this?. Do i have enemies now, really?. What enemies are you talking about?.


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## Elthir (Jan 13, 2020)

I think it's just a "saying" . . . not meant to refer to any specific enemies of anyone, but rather to put a clever stamp on the first part of the message.


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## Miguel (Jan 13, 2020)

Galin said:


> I think it's just a "saying" . . . not meant to refer to any specific enemies of anyone, but rather to put a clever stamp on the first part of the message.



Still confused. I dont' really know how you look at it but to me it sounds threatning and sketchy so, no. Still waiting for an actual explanation.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Jan 13, 2020)

Miguel said:


> Still confused. I dont' really know how you look at it but to me it sounds threatning and sketchy so, no. Still waiting for an actual explanation.



I think that it means, don't talk negatively or ill about yourself, your enemies will do that for you. I don't think anyone here was trying to insult anyone else or anything.


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## Miguel (Jan 14, 2020)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> don't talk negatively or ill about yourself, your enemies will do that for you



Still don't get why this?.



Erestor Arcamen said:


> I don't think anyone here was trying to insult anyone else or anything



Glad to hear


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## Elthir (Jan 14, 2020)

I've been chatting with Alcuin for years (not just here) and have never yet interpreted any post of his as threatening, even after some of my very annoying nitpicks of his usual, well informed posts (note: I wouldn't actually expect him to be threatening about my nitpicks -- that much is in jest, in case it's unclear). Again [repetition alert], I don't think the statement carries anything ill toward you . . . and I'm guessing it hails from one of the Stoics (or based on something from one of the Stoics)? Maybe something from M. Aurelius?

And I know I repeated myself a bit there. And that nobody asked me to 

This post is mostly to annoy Ando!

Galin Unbanned


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jan 14, 2020)

Galin said:


> Galin Unbanned


Does this mean he's back?

If so, hurrah!


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## Erestor Arcamen (Jan 14, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Does this mean he's back?
> 
> If so, hurrah!



I still have no idea what's going on 🤯


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## Elthir (Jan 14, 2020)

Me neether 😇


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## Miguel (Jan 14, 2020)

> Do not speak ill of yourself



I don't.



> Some will gladly save you the trouble



Very true


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## Olorgando (Jan 15, 2020)

Galin said:


> My short-nick is Ando "gate", also the name of tengwa number 5.
> ...


I last posted here on Friday 10 Jan. I return from an absence of five days and find an almost theological discussion has taken place, more than doubling the number of pages of this thread. "When the mouse is away the cats will play?" As per my memory that saying was different in details ...

But anyway, "Endorfin" gets shortened to "Ando"???
Hypothesis 1: spelling bees in the US have gone the way of the dinosaurs (wrongly spelled names abound in Galin/whathisname's recent posts anyway).
Hypothesis 2: sound shifts; I read somewhere (I'm guessing Tom Shippey) that 19th-century comparative philology was very occupied with "sound shifts in the primeval German forests", not surprising since, starting with the brothers Grimm, comparative philology seems to have been done mostly in Germany. Ancient spelling bees might have avoided much of such nonsensical degradation of language - or not ...


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jan 15, 2020)

I was going to reply to Galin, but his post's disappeared.

BTW, Galin, I was going to PM you, but I'm blocked. Was it something I said?


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## Elthir (Jan 15, 2020)

Welcome back Gando! Hmm. How do you explain _aran_ plural _erain_? Or the French name _Ereinion_?

Or how about _goose_ and _geese --_ sometimes something called (something like) i-influenza is at the heart of things.

_____

Erm, watch the nonsense Galin! Ando here: this name is not a result of highering or lowering. It simply altered due to what a number of linguists call "blendation" -- considering the already existing Quenya word _ando_.

I have many Noldorin friends down by *Annon*-in-Gelydh.


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## Elthir (Jan 15, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I was going to reply to Galin, but his post's dissappeared.




Sometimes my bad jokes do that 😇



> BTW, Galin, I was going to PM you, but I'm blocked. Was it something I said?



I don't think my PM's on 
and I don't own a cell phone either . . .
both, I fear, might make me yawn
-- and no offense to Aragon or anywan who lights upon
these threads . . .

. . . but I don't use the "like" thing neether

🐾


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jan 15, 2020)

Ah, another aspect of a "unique" personality.  Fair enough.

And thanks for replying -- I was beginning to fear I was on "Ignore" as well!


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## Olorgando (Jan 15, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Ah, another aspect of a "unique" personality.


I dunno, Galin and "unique" (a singular) don't seem to go together too well as of recently … 🤨


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jan 15, 2020)

Well, they can just fight it out between themselves for the title of "Uniquest".


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## Olorgando (Jan 15, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Well, they can just fight it out between themselves for the title of "Uniquest".


ARGH! Ain't no such word! Same sort of mental garbage that in Germany produced "optimalste(s)(r)" ("optimalest")! This is all north of the north pole stupidity! 🤮


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jan 15, 2020)

How 'bout "uniquer" -- does that work for you?


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## Elthir (Jan 15, 2020)

We like it!


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## Olorgando (Jan 15, 2020)

No, there are terms that signify a maximum (or minimum), unless accompanied by a qualifier. Berlin is Germany's largest city, by size and population. There are by now many cities worldwide that are larger in both categories, and one of them is the largest city on the planet - but that gets into the fuzzy "metropolitan area" territory.
Maximum is a term in case. Not enough for some of the hyperventilating set in advertising and the Internet, apparently, in German. There the adjective is "maximal", but I guess if your brain is already Ecstasy- or Crystal Meth-addled enough, you might feel the need for "maximalste", or maximummest (does that term even exist in English? And I am *not* making a suggestion for an addition to the OED or any other dictionary! 👿 )


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## Elthir (Jan 21, 2020)

Lifted from another thread, Gando noted: "At that time JRRT was 73, and had most likely given up on managing to get The Sil published in his lifetime."

Hmm. Why do you think/say/write so?


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## Olorgando (Jan 21, 2020)

Galin said:


> Lifted from another thread, Gando noted: "At that time JRRT was 73, and had most likely given up on managing to get The Sil published in his lifetime."
> 
> Hmm. Why do you think/say/write so?


Erm ...
The much longer part after "Bu-hut" in that post listed reasons why JRRT might have felt a bit overwhelmed at the prospect of getting the Sil in order even at the time he wrote the original conversation, in the first edition, between Bilbo and Frodo at Rivendell, well over a decade earlier. By 1965, when he made the revisions for the second edition, he had already suffered countless interruptions to what was his supposed aim to bring the "work of his heart" to a publishable form, that revision necessitated by the Ace books pirate paperback edition (and some egregious defects of US copyright law of the time) only having been the last to date. I'll just add the link to my original post as "explanation".









Christopher Tolkien Dead at 95


"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.” - Gandalf, The Gray I don't know if there are words to accurately describe how much Mr. Tolkien contributed to our community and the world. Let's take a moment to thank him for everything. 🥺...




www.thetolkienforum.com


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## Elthir (Jan 21, 2020)

> Gando replied: The much longer part after "Bu-hut" in that post listed reasons why JRRT might have felt a bit overwhelmed at the prospect of getting the Sil in order even at the time he wrote the original conversation, in the first edition, between Bilbo and Frodo at Rivendell, well over a decade earlier.



Okay . . . but here I would also point to the flurry of writing _after_ Tolkien wrote this conversation, when Waldman showed interest in publishing _The Lord of the Rings_ and _The Silmarillion_. In my opinion, shirly at this point, in the early 1950s, JRRT had not only not given up, but was inspired and heartened to get a version of QS in print.



> By 1965, when he made the revisions for the second edition, he had already suffered countless interruptions to what was his supposed aim to bring the "work of his heart" to a publishable form, that revision necessitated by the Ace books pirate paperback edition (and some egregious defects of US copyright law of the time) only having been the last to date.




There were certainly interruptions, and I think Tolkien meandered and arguably procrastinated, or got caught up in questions that didn't exactly help finish QS as an updated text, but anyway I agree with Christopher Tolkien that his father "deeply wanted to finish it" [the Silmarillion], but "couldn't" _given the task Tolkien had chosen to involve himself in, in his later years -- _in other words, yes, the work had become large and daunting, but not as large and daunting as recasting _Quenta Silmarillion_ itself "needed" to be, in my opinion. But that tangent aside for now . . .








. . . in any case, "couldn't" is one thing (also in the interview with CJRT), especially after we know Tolkien "didn't", but to my mind, giving up is a different horse, and some of us humans might tend to think we have more time than we have. I'm not saying you are necessarily wrong about this, Gando, especially given your "most likely" in any case, only that I disagree. Plenty of folk have interpreted the external history as you do, some even claiming it points to JRRT not wanting to finish the work.

But perhaps the very late letter to Lord Halsbury (letter 353, 4 August 1973), for example, shows Tolkien once again (admittedly after losing confidence), being invigorated, arguably the more so in the hope that he might have help: "When you retire I shall certainly beg you help. 
Without it, I begin to feel I shall never produce any part of The Silmarillion."

Hmm. Who knows. And as this is roughly a month before Tolkien's passing, maybe the last sentence expresses a measure (arguably at least)
of "worry" -- in other words -- that Tolkien had not given up, but was "starting" to worry that the task may need helping hands and minds.


Also, apologies for my clipping of context above -- I was too much thinking of not going down this road in the thread about Christopher's passing. Although that said, I should have "unlazily" quoted more/all of your post here! And I put it here, given my argument that Tolkien's decision, as I see it, with respect to the Numenorean-Bilbo tradition, generally speaking and in my opinion, made Tolkien's task of finishing his QS "easier" in some respects.

🐾


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## Olorgando (Jan 21, 2020)

Well, yes … but JRRT had an endless track record of not getting things finished. Not just the two long poems, the annals, the "Quentas", the detailed stories etc. in his legendarium, but also professional efforts like the planned collaboration on an edition of "Pearl" together with E.V. Gordon as a follow-up to their acclaimed 1925 "Sir Gawain and the Green Knight" (also delayed). JRRT contributed very little to the later collaboration, and when Gordon died prematurely in 1938, the effort was taken up by his widow Ida. JRRT again was not overly helpful in making progress towards publication, which finally happened in 1953.
JRRT, while being well aware of his being a "natural niggler, alas!" apparently consistently underestimated the trouble that this got him into, both time-wise and from having too much to choose from - and he was also not very good at compressing things.

Which of course led Christopher to his almost 45-year career as his father's literary executor, starting in 1975 when he gave up his post as lecturer / tutor at Oxford after 11 years there. And he continued on with this close to the end, "The Fall of Gondolin" appearing in 2018, when he was 93 going on 94, so over 25 years longer than the age at which his father finally retired from his Oxford chair in 1959.


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## Elthir (Jan 21, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> Well, yes … but JRRT had an endless track record of not getting things finished.




Very well, but I'll just note again the reason I raised this in the first place: not that you said otherwise, but_ giving up_ his "heart's work" is not necessarily the same as not finishing it -- or other projects, for whatever, various reasons.

Also, for those who might not have read any HOME (and I know for those who have, this might seem like a needless niggle), but Tolkien did finish, for examples, versions of his Annals, and a Silmarillion (called _Qenta Noldorinwa_ at the time) -- and after finishing _The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, the Adventures of Tom Bombadil, The Road Goes Ever On_, certain "now" older works remained "unfinished" in the sense of not being updated, of course.

Anyway, and as it's easy to ask . . . I'll ask it.

What if no appendices had been planned and the Waldman deal had panned out?

Hmm


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## Olorgando (Jan 21, 2020)

Galin said:


> Anyway, and as it's easy to ask . . . I'll ask it.
> What if no appendices had been planned and the Waldman deal had panned out?
> 
> Hmm


Hmmyes - but didn't JRRT at one point mention (perhaps in "Letters") that he envisaged both LoTR and Sil to be of about equal length? Both of my Sils are just over 360 pages long, with index, appendices and maps about 440. Granted, JRRT himself would have been able to select with more confidence what he would have wanted to include, where Christopher was forced to do a good deal of guesswork. But to get a version of the Sil three times the length of what Christopher ended up publishing … 🤯🤯🤯


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## Elthir (Jan 21, 2020)

I'd have to look that up, but for now (and again lazily), some references might be JRRT using "Silmarillion" more in the sense of "Legendarium" (whether or not the specific word is used), opposed to meaning _Quenta Silmarillion_ the text. That said, the early 1950 phase appears to be an expansion of its (basically) "pre-LoTR" predecessor, which was itself an expansion of the finished _Qenta_ _Noldorinwa_, so I'd have to look this up to be sure.

Or I could wait and let someone else check 

. . . anyway right now I'm off to watch something on Netflix!


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## Olorgando (Jan 22, 2020)

Galin said:


> Or I could wait and let someone else check


I have this feeling that we'd need an _über_-nerd - even an _über_-Alcuin, basically Christopher himself or someone who has dug into UT and HoMe, perhaps using CoH, B&L and FoG as compact collections of all JRRT wrote about his three Great Tales, to distill how much "fodder" there is for any hypothetical Sil.
I could well imagine CoH, B&L and FoG as stand-alone books at least of the size of TH, going into detail. Though when one considers that in UT's "Of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin" JRRT spends 34 pages just getting Tuor past the last gate of the secret way, to get a first far glimpse of Gondolin itself, all bets on the possible size of that book are off to my overwhelmed imagination! 

And JRRT himself might have also produced a "Lays of Beleriand", having finished "The Lay of the Children of Húrin" and "The Lay of Leithian" (but he mentions so many other lays in his writings that his "LoB" could have become a very fat book to include all, or at least the major ones).
Somewhere, recorded in some book on the legendarium, Christopher (I believe) confirms the impression that some people had gotten of the Sil published by him of being quite compressed - I'm almost tempted to say a "Reader's Digest" of the First Age (and the Second), with the long stories, the Lays, and a collection of annals being the source material. And that this was his father's intention for the Sil.
From that perspective a LoTR-sized Sil looks highly unlikely.

But as we know, none of the Lays even attempted were nearly finished, nor any of the longs stories. Quentas may have been finished for an earlier stage of the legendarium, but were all insufficient for post-LoTR Middle-earth, and their subsequent expansions and alterations did not get finished, IIRC. Not sure if any of his many annals ever reached that stage, but the various versions certainly needed reconciliation of contradictions. And never mind that more (far more) than once, JRRT seems to have had an inspiration for an entry in those annals that led him to leave the annalistic mode and produce a major essay, on the topic that had fired his imagination. "Unmethodical and dilatory" C.S. Lewis once called JRRT - these two long-time friends seem to confirm the saying of finding a splinter in the other's eye while ignoring the beam in their own … Or to go to our "real world", that inscription on the Temple of Apollo at Delphi - _*the*_ oracular site in classical Greece - "Gnothi seauton", meaning "know thyself", is something our species is so pathetically incapable of (and the Internet definitely ain't helpin' … 🤪 )


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## Elthir (Jan 22, 2020)

> I have this feeling that we'd need an _über_-nerd - even an _über_-Alcuin, basically Christopher himself or someone who has dug into UT and HoMe, perhaps using CoH, B&L and FoG as compact collections of all JRRT wrote about his three Great Tales, to distill how much "fodder" there is for any hypothetical Sil.




Over the years I've read a number of published Tolkien scholars and various TIFOWI ("Tolkien Informed Folks On Web" plus a Quenya plural marker for some reason) who've conjectured about a hypothetical "Silmarillion". I've done this myself -- in my head no doubt, and _possibly_ on line somewhere. Some things are "very arguable" given evidence that can be brought to bear, others arguable. . . and so on down the line as far as "compelling" argument goes, but in the end, as I think folks might agree, subjective considerations naturally push in, and so it goes.

But this is about the Silmarllion in the sense of Bilbo's volumes of _The Red Book of Westmarch_. And to use JRRT's words to Lord Halsbury "any part of The Silmarillion", with emphasis on "part", I consider those parts Christopher Tolkien included in the 1977 constructed version (nor is this a criticism of Christopher Tolkien_ in any way _-- just in case some might take it so) could be . . . well "arguably" less than half. . . of "a Silmarillion" in the larger sense.

And even that guess itself is meant in the very general sense of: I don't know how much "less than half" in word count . . .

. . . and with "book bulk" depending upon font of course


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## Olorgando (Jan 22, 2020)

Well, as to font, or book type / page size / lines per page, I can compare my latest-1984 three-volume Unwin Paperbacks LoTR version with my 2002 Hardcover HarperCollins version (with illustrations by Alan Lee, and continuously paginated through the three separate volumes). 1317 pages text paperback to 1035 hardcover, appendices / index 178 to 126 (font may play a part in the discrepancy between text and appendages). My Sils are both very much more along the mid-1980s paperbacks. So we are talking, purely regarding text, about LoTR being over 3.5 times the size of the 1977 Sil. When I look at the LoTR Appendices, I do not see that very much of them could have been covered by any Sil, so we're getting closer to 4 times (but the appendices and much more so index to the Sil could have been proportionally much larger than that of LoTR even as is). So by this admittedly very hypothetical conjecture I don't see any kind of Sil reaching much over 60% of LoTR, unless JRRT seriously changed his concept of the Sil as being, and I'll stick with this term for "shock value", a "Reader's Digest" of the First and Second Ages. 🤔


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## Elthir (Jan 22, 2020)

Okay, so in your last post you're talking about "Silmarillion" in the sense of the five part: _Ainulindale, Valaquenta, Quenta Silmarillion, Akallabêth, and Of The Rings of Power._ . . correct?

As opposed to _Quenta Silmarillion_, or _The Silmarillion_ as a "cover all" title of the legendarium, which could be very much longer.

Just so we're on the same page here (pun intended!) 

For one example: in my opinion, the Silmarillion "as in legendarium" would contain two versions of the Fall of Numenor: Mixed version _Akallabêth_, Mannish version The Drowning of Anadûnê.


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## Olorgando (Jan 22, 2020)

Yes, when I use shorthand, or actually "those dreaded acronyms" LoTR, TH, Sil, UT, HoMe etc. I'm writing about the published books. (Tom Shippey uses a different method of distinguishing published books and legendarium: _The Silmarillion_ so italicized meant the 1977 book, while with 'The Silmarillion' in inverted commas meant the legendarium).

But if we are talking about what JRRT might have wanted to have published by Waldman of Collins in the early 1950s, we must assume it to be something along the lines of The Sil, or _The _Silmarillion. 'The Silmarillion' as legendarium published by JRRT _himself_ - are you thinking along the lines of my above post, where I speculate that JRRT would have managed to finish his three Great Tales CoH, B&L and FoG, finish the two long Lays (and perhaps write a few more) - and would then have given _Akallabeth_ and _The Drowning of Anadûnê_ as (in some ways probably conflicting) variants of his own "Atlantis" legend?

Not meant as a criticism, but the latter made me spontaneously think of a situation in which, say, both the original as well as the revised versions of TH were still to be bought.
But then, when I decided to order Shippey's 2003 third edition of _The Road to Middle-earth_, it took about a week to be delivered, a Houghton Mifflin hardcover. The bookstore *still* had a orderable the 1992 second edition, presumably a HarperCollins paperback - or perhaps a Grafton paperback, an imprint of HarperCollins, as it the second edition that I already had. Go figure.


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## Miguel (Jan 22, 2020)

Galin said:


> TIFOWI



😂


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## Elthir (Jan 23, 2020)

Miguel said:


> 😂



TIFOWI can also be used as a sound effect . . .
for when Thor punches/hammers Mangog.



Or if you're a DC person, when Batman punches the Joker.


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## Olorgando (Jan 23, 2020)

Galin said:


> TIFOWI





Miguel said:


> 😂


I think it was with Miguel's replying post, and less with Galin's original, where the term was surrounded by a lot of text and profited from that "crowd situation" ...
I had one of those "our brain is very creative in ways many of us are unaware of" situations, even though I have read quite a bit about this creativity.
It probably only starts after we have accumulated a certain amount of experience, so perhaps at 25, when the brain's most recently developed part, the prefrontal cortex, responsible, as I will translate it, for the "adult functions", has fully developed (though I still have this nagging suspicion that JRRT knew something in having Hobbits "come of age" at 33, but he just didn't enlighten the rest of us, keeping this as an extreme insider joke).

A classical experiment is showing text (written in capital letters, I believe), with only the top or bottom half of the letters visible. We can read this, our brain supplies the missing half from experience. Or, to the point here, when we only glance at (or read quickly) something which has a minute aberration from what is expected, and "read" what is expected by experience, sort of "spell-check-correcting" it automatically - just think how often you have *expletive deleted* at any spellchecker in a newly installed program.

TIFOWI (ok, the capital letters would be unusual …)
Tifosi: Italian sports fans, pre-eminently for football, and there mostly the Italian national team (which when playing to qualify for, or taking part, in FIFA World Cups or UEFA European Championships, is one of the rare occasions where Italians feel so "nationally", instead of the inter-regional bickering that comes more naturally; quite common in many European countries, Germany certainly not excluded), then Formula 1 racing with the Ferrari team, cycling, perhaps ...
The etymology given in the English Wiki article is quite revealing, for all sports fans world-wide, I would postulate … 

In another typical short-cut (or "short-circuit") that our brain is "good" at, I wondered what Miguel (and more so Galin) had to to with fandom of Italian sports teams ...
Especially for Miguel, "_La Furia Roja"_ should be where his sympathies lie.


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## Elthir (Jan 24, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> Yes, when I use shorthand, or actually "those dreaded acronyms" LoTR, TH, Sil, UT, HoMe etc. I'm writing about the published books. ( . . . or "dot dot dot")




Okay. Thanks.



> . . . But if we are talking about what JRRT might have wanted to have published by Waldman of Collins in the early 1950s, we must assume it to be something along the lines of The Sil, or _The _Silmarillion. 'The Silmarillion' as legendarium published by JRRT _himself_




Agreed. And my next distinction here is (I'll put it in annoying question form): what did Tolkien think he could finish at this time, that is, in a "reasonable" time frame (admittedly a subjective consideration) during the early 1950s? Of course we can't _certainly_ know, and I can't recall if
we even know how long Milton Waldman would have given JRRT to publish _The Lord of the Rings_ along with something "in conjunction or in connexion" with it (MR, Foreword] as "one long Saga of the Jewels and the Rings."

One could point to the flurry of new writing during the relevant time period, but in my opinion, even that doesn't_ necessarily _record the "achievable" with any ultimate certainty -- simply meaning, even at the time, Tolkien might have ultimately settled for parts to be published with _The Lord of the Rings,_ along with hopes of future additions to his legendarium. My guess would certainly include _Ainulindale, Valaquenta and Quenta Silmarillion_, but for now, I'll stop there with respect to my fuller opinions or guesses about that.

One of my favorite notes from Tolkien hails from _Myths Transformed_ (MR), where he writes that the Three Great Tales (presumably the long forms, as Christopher Tolkien himself mentions) must be Numenorean (and so on), adding (Tolkien's own note): "Should not these be given as Appendices to the Silmarillion?"

Yes please 

But again, did JRRT ever think this was truly possible with respect to the Waldman deal? I'm not really asking here, just wondering on "paper". Although anyone can respond if they'd like to, of course.



> . . . are you thinking along the lines of my above post, where I speculate that JRRT would have managed to finish his three Great Tales CoH, B&L and FoG, finish the two long Lays (and perhaps write a few more) - and would then have given _Akallabeth_ and _The Drowning of Anadûnê_ as (in some ways probably conflicting) variants of his own "Atlantis" legend?




Here's where I still need a bit of clarification (my fault no doubt): do you mean all these works for Waldman in the 1950s, minus ("then" as in later?) the fall of Numenor tale or tales? Or do you mean, this much as part of a theoretical legendarium (with a title The Silmarilion), that might be produced in Tolkien's lifetime -- in addition to any theoretical "Waldman material", so to (try to) speak.

Or something else, if this last question of mine is unclear!

Or string or nothing 

Or am I simply giving you a headache, like the one I'm giving me!


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## Olorgando (Jan 24, 2020)

Galin said:


> "one long Saga of the Jewels and the Rings."
> ...
> Here's where I still need a bit of clarification (my fault no doubt): do you mean all these works for Waldman in the 1950s, minus ("then" as in later?) the fall of Numenor tale or tales? Or do you mean, this much as part of a theoretical legendarium (with a title The SIlmarillion), that might be produced in Tolkien's lifetime -- in addition to any theoretical "Waldman material", so to (try to) speak.


I probably wasn't quite sure myself what a "Waldman Silmarillion" would have contained. Including (perhaps in compressed form) both _Akallabêth_ and _The Drowning of Anadûnê _in it would probably get me in "Ehwot?!?" territory quickly. Christopher opted for _Akallabêth_ as being included in his version. Including both could involve some complicated editorial work. But the full "Saga of the Rings" would have to include the Second Age, with their making and JRRT's "Atlantis" story. No way he would have added this to LoTR, that was long enough already, and in a very finished state compared to the rest. So if the "Waldman Silmarillion" was not to be limited to the First Age, in which the "Saga of the Jewels" came to a definitive conclusion, it might resemble _The ["Christopher"] Silmarillion_ in having things about the First Age ending with a Quenta, the entire Rings business of the Second Age, and some LoTR background preceding TH, and perhaps between TH and LoTR from the Third Age.

What I can't judge is if _Akallabêth_ and _The Drowning of Anadûnê_ had enough "substance" each to become something of a Great Tale like CoH, B&L or FoG. My vague impression is that both are more in the line of a "Quenta", covering a lot of time; a Great Tale from this part might have been (become) "Aldarion and Erendis" ...

And all of those annals would have to have been appendices, as they are in LoTR.


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## Elthir (Jan 24, 2020)

Ahh. Thanks again.

Yes, in my opinion, a 1950s saga of the rings and jewels would have been _The Lord of the Rings_ plus something like what Christopher Tolkien produced in 1977, ending with _Of The Rings of Power._ That said, as we know, in this phase Tolkien began reworking poems and Great Tales too, and I wonder how much he thought he could finish "in time" here.

To my mind both _Akallabêth_ and _The Drowning of Anadûnê_ are more like QS, as you say. And personally, and not that you said otherwise obviously, I'm not sure they would have been published in the same phase (or under the same cover, so to speak). But keeping in mind that Bilbo had three "volumes", I do think Tolkien ultimately wanted both these "contradiction-ish" versions in the larger legendarium.

As far as the Annals go (Aman and Grey/Beleriand) , I think these traditions were merging (externally) in style and fullness with QS, and thus were no longer to be existing texts, but "replaced" with a First Age Tale of Years.


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## Miguel (Jan 25, 2020)

Galin said:


> TIFOWI can also be used as a sound effect . . .
> for when Thor punches/hammers Mangog.
> 
> View attachment 6408
> ...



Oh you silly.



Olorgando said:


> should be where his sympathies lie



I like playing it and that's about it, i'm not into this if that's what you're thinking:







The fanaticism, it drags you in, like drugs you know.


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## Olorgando (Jan 25, 2020)

Galin said:


> ...
> Yes, in my opinion, a 1950s saga of the rings and jewels would have been _The Lord of the Rings_ plus something like what Christopher Tolkien produced in 1977, ending with _Of The Rings of Power._ That said, as we know, in this phase Tolkien began reworking poems and Great Tales too, and I wonder how much he thought he could finish "in time" here.
> ...


As to the reworking, the stuff in MR and WoTJ, didn't he do most if not all of this after the Collins episode was over? The Foreword to MR does not make this entirely clear, except that the material in WoTJ was definitely post-publication of LoTR, while that of MR was post-finishing of the writing, but that was already in 1949.

But if we're speculating about a "Waldman Silmarillion", that by necessity would also mean a "Waldman LoTR." Would this have been identical to what we now have from, originally, George Allen & Unwin? I skimmed through the Waldman correspondence in "Letters" (plus some to Sir Stanley Unwin that I think relevant), and I must say I have to wonder, if not come to the conclusion that it would have been shortened. Repeatedly, JRRT refers to LoTR and Sil as each being "about 600,000 words". What I did not read in its entirety is the "Monster" letter, No. 131, which runs to over 18 pages in my paperback edition of "Letters". And is an abridged version at that, as in the preface to the letter - which also states that Waldman appears to have suggested to JRRT to write the letter - the full text is said to be ten thousand words long! (Just for comparison, Tom Shippey in "Author of the Century" gives the large and crucial chapter "Council of Elrond" as being fifteen thousand words long!) The vast majority of what JRRT wrote was about 'Silmarillion' material, and for LoTR he makes this statement: "I cannot substantially alter the thing."

Looking at it from Waldman's perspective (and he seems to have been quite the most enthusiastic person at Collins about the whole affair), he was facing twice what GA&U faced in the mid-1950s. Even if one dismisses JRRT's estimation of equal length, and assumes what you mentioned above that _The ["Christopher"] Silmarillion_ was less than half of what could have been, we're still talking about a five-book-volume monster, if no longer a "six-pack". I can well imagine a lot of people at Collins getting hot and cold flashes in rapid alternation - perhaps Waldman himself, too. Leaving aside the diffuse 'Silmarillion' material, what might a reduced LoTR have looked like?

I realize that compulsive readers of LoTR (like myself) would probably balk violently at any reduction. But this is looking back retrospectively after 65 years since publication. With a _Silmarillion_ published at the same time, certainly some reduction of LoTR's appendices would be possible. Without them (or most of them), RoTK is the shortest book, as is the German translation that I own. As for reducing the narrative, this is more difficult. We do have a pointer, though, in what both Bakshi and PJ dropped, the whole Crickhollow / Old Forest / Tom Bombadil / Barrow Dows part. The latter, however, would lose the point of Merry's special dagger, the possibly most deadly weapon in Middle-earth to the Lord of the Nazgûl. I have a vague feeling that "The Shadow of the Past" might also be compressed by an existing _Silmarillion,_ so it looks like "Fellowship", the most "Hobbitish" of the volumes, would bear the brunt of reduction. For all the rest, I am very hesitant, as I am currently re-reading Shippey's 2003 third edition of "The Road to Middle-earth", in which he stresses how precise JRRT was in cross-referencing events in say TTT, which is basically two totally separate strand of storytelling. chronologically. And never mind his subtle references to, yes, Shakespearean plays (!), which critics should have more than a passing knowledge of, as well as a lot of much older stuff that was simply something they were as ignorant of as the run-of-the-mill reader (not something they should be proud of). *Perhaps* by the necessities of their profession, very likely due to the sheer volume of new publications each year, critics probably tend to skim, or to speed-read - and only once. Which, I think at least we nerds agree, is about the worst way to read *anything* by JRRT. Even with my multiple readings, without the help of the likes of Shippey, Flieger and others (Christopher Tolkien actually belongs at the head of this list), I would still be massively ignorant of a lot of what went into LoTR source-wise, and never mind The SIl (or even TH).

So anyway, just to heat up the speculative brain-storming so beloved in probably all JRRT sites:
What might a "Waldman LoTR" have looked like - meaning, what might have been missing?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jan 25, 2020)

Interesting question. Why not start a new thread for it?


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## Olorgando (Jan 25, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Interesting question. Why not start a new thread for it?


Erm, how to put this … I seriously doubt that this has "Tom Bombadil" or "Balrog wings" potential.
And don't forget, HarperCollins has now gotten their greedy little hands on LoTR, in 1990, 35 years after publication.
This is kind of a Decca Records deciding to give that four-member band from Liverpool a pass territory.
Any written documentation about the decision to forego LoTR has probably been consigned to the incinerator log ago, so no embarrassing details to be found anymore.
Leaves pure speculative territory - something like wilder fanfic or so; not really my cuppa, as the saying goes. 😒


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## Elthir (Jan 26, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> As to the reworking, the stuff in MR and WoTJ, didn't he do most if not all of this after the Collins episode was over?




Tolkien met Waldman in autumn *1949*, and by late 1949-50 JRRT reurned to _The Lay of Beren and Luthien_, and also began a new, long prose version of the same tale. In the early 1950s, Tolkien begins Tal-Elmar. *1950-1951* "Now that Tolkien has hope for the publication of "The Silmarillion", he returns his attention to this work".

As I read the descriptions, this flurry of writing is after Waldman expressed the desire to publish both works. And during this time, JRRT worked on Beren and Luthien, Turin, The Fall of Gondolin, The Annals of Aman and Quenta Silmarillion. So I think much of this, in part at least, seems to be grounded in the hope of the Waldman deal.

JRRT writes to Waldman in February 1950, explaining his problems with A&U. In April *1950* Tolkien tells Waldman that LR is free for publication, but at some point in 1950 Waldman visits Tolkien and tells him the tale must be cut. Dismayed, Tolkien says he'll try to cut it, buy never seems to do so. Waldman leaves for Italy, falls ill, leaving the "saga" in the hands of someone else who does not share Waldman's enthusiasm for the project. By the end of 1950 nothing is said of its publication.

But it seems the possible deal isn't certainly dead yet.

In October 1950 Stanley Unwin has heard of Tolkien's problems with Collins, but it's not until *April 1952* that (it's noted that) Collins are frightened by the great length of the book proposed, and: "Tolkien's hopes of seeing "The Silmarillion" published now collapses. He abandons, unfinished, most of the writing and rewriting he had done for his mythology during the period c. *1949-52* . . ." (Hammond and Scull), during which Tolkien had also worked on _The Grey Annals,_ wrote _Of Meglin_, and the updated _Fall of Gondolin_ long prose version, which ended up published in _Unfinished Tales_ of course.



> But if we're speculating about a "Waldman Silmarillion", that by necessity would also mean a "Waldman LoTR." Would this have been identical to what we now have from, originally, George Allen & Unwin? I skimmed through the Waldman correspondence in "Letters" (plus some to Sir Stanley Unwin that I think relevant), and I must say I have to wonder, if not come to the conclusion that it would have been shortened.




We can see Waldman saying this, no doubt. Would Tolkien have stood firm?



> Looking at it from Waldman's perspective (and he seems to have been quite the most enthusiastic person at Collins about the whole affair), he was facing twice what GA&U faced in the mid-1950s. Even if one dismisses JRRT's estimation of equal length, and assumes what you mentioned above that _The ["Christopher"] Silmarillion_ was less than half of what could have been, we're still talking about a five-book-volume monster, if no longer a "six-pack".




Here, just for clarity, in that post I was musing quite _generally_ about what a Tolkien legendarium might/could entail compared to Christopher Tolkien's constructed version, adding _"And even that guess itself is meant in the very general sense of: I don't know how much "less than half" in word count"_

In short: who knows how long! It's very subjective and speculative. Just like a Waldman "Quenta Silmarillion" I guess!



> So anyway, just to heat up the speculative brain-storming so beloved in probably all JRRT sites: What might a "Waldman LoTR" have looked like - meaning, what might have been missing?




Good question. Just my opinion, but I'm not sure Tolkien would have given ground with respect to LOTR (or much if any). I have a vague memory, or dream, that certain editions of _The Return of the King_ were published without Appendices, except, perhaps in some or all these cases, for_ The Tale of Aragorn_ and _Arwen_ -- but at the moment I can't comment why this was done, and by whom (who was involved), if I didn't dream it in the first place!

Anyway, again, my brief guess is: JRRT might have bargained to keep LOTR as is . . . for less Silmarillion materials _in this phase_ -- with designs for much more (internally) "older" materials to be published later, if the resulting scenario proved favorable.

🐾


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## Olorgando (Jan 26, 2020)

Elthir said:


> ... I have a vague memory, or dream, that certain editions of _The Return of the King_ were published without Appendices, except, perhaps in some or all these cases, for_ The Tale of Aragorn_ and _Arwen_ -- but at the moment I can't comment why this was done, and by whom (who was involved), if I didn't dream it in the first place! ...


As I mentioned in passing in my long post above, RoTK is the shortest book in the original German translation of 1969/70. "Fellowship" is 558 pages, including all the maps at the front of the book. TTT is 466 pages, and RoTK is 410 pages plus a single appendix of 11 pages, precisely _The Tale of Aragorn_ and _Arwen._ However, this is a book club version which may have left out annals and family trees included in the original German publisher's version. (A quick check in the German Wikipedia confirms this, specifically for paperbacks - mine is a hardcover, though). I could imagine that for a time, there were "non-nerd" versions for people who really only wanted the story. Think about it, a lot of the appendices have a fatal resemblance to history books, and plenty of people weren't too fond of their language classes either; those kinds of people might have been scared away from the books by such appendices.


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## Elthir (Jan 26, 2020)

Ah, a Book Club version. Thanks Gando. This makes me want to delve further into the publishing history of the Appendices. But not enough for me to do it anytime soon. I have many other projects/ramblings that are currently much higher on my list of stuff to do.

And today I'm in the mood for a nice fog in the forest (fogging is something between fast walking and jogging).


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## Olorgando (Jan 26, 2020)

Six posts on this page of this thread quite clearly record, by means of reply, "Galin said" (sounds a bit like those fortune cookies in Chinese restaurants with the "Confucius says" bit on a slip of paper inside - never seen them in a Chinese restaurant in Germany, btw).
Now that Tevildo clone in Yuppie dress suddenly sports the member name "Elthir" (of which I also have memories of having seen it in my five months on TTF).
'Smatter, "Galin" and "Endorfin / Endo / Ando" isn't causing enough confusion for your "correspondents", you now revert to Beornian / Sauronian sleights-of-something?
Have the proper authorities etc. ...


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## Elthir (Jan 26, 2020)

> Have the proper authorities etc. ..




Yep, some have been notified


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## Miguel (Jan 26, 2020)

Elthir said:


> He abandons, unfinished, most of the writing and rewriting he had done for his mythology



So, in a parallel universe this is complete and LOTR would be the unfinished work, awesome


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## Olorgando (Jan 27, 2020)

Miguel said:


> So, in a parallel universe this is complete and LOTR would be the unfinished work, awesome


Hmm. If _*ceteris paribus*_ applies to this parallel universe, then JRRT would be an author with a small-to-tiny following for a book that mystifies all but hardcore fans of mythology. On the plus side, there would be no PJ films (though I repeat droningly that it *could* have been worse, and taken as films in their own right, as films-only "Middle-earthers" are bound to do with no "canon" issues, at least the LoTR series are grund-breaking films, and the TH series are OK).


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## Miguel (Jan 28, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> for a book that mystifies all but hardcore fans of mythology



I'm ok with that.


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## Olorgando (Jan 28, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> for a book that mystifies all but hardcore fans of mythology





Miguel said:


> I'm ok with that.


Fine, but can you imagine a TTF (or the host of other JRRT site that sprang up around 2001 as "Fellowship" neared its premiere, of which Council of Elrond and Arwen-Undomiel seem to be among the faltering remnants) only dealing with the Silmarillion? Tom B. and winged Balrogs are two of the most-discussed items of Tolkieniana - both are from LoTR - and no Hobbits?!?


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## Miguel (Jan 28, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> and no Hobbits



Not necessarily.


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## Olorgando (Jan 29, 2020)

Miguel said:


> Not necessarily.


Certainly not visible, participating in any of the action of the First and Second Ages. War with Morgoth in the FA, Númenor for the Edain and Sauron's spreading influence in Middle-earth, then the whole forging of the Rings of Power and the following wars to the end of the Second Age, including the destruction of Númenor and Sauron's first, temporary defeat. No place for Hobbits in all that.


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## Miguel (Jan 29, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> Certainly not visible, participating in any of the action of the First and Second Ages. War with Morgoth in the FA, Númenor for the Edain and Sauron's spreading influence in Middle-earth, then the whole forging of the Rings of Power and the following wars to the end of the Second Age, including the destruction of Númenor and Sauron's first, temporary defeat. No place for Hobbits in all that.



Didn't Hobbits reach the west at some point?. Was it 1st, 2nd or 3rd age?. No participation in combat didn't mean they weren't around as seen in LOTR.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jan 29, 2020)

TA 1050 - Perianath are first mentioned in records, with the coming of the Harfoots to Eriador.

1150 -- The Fallohides enter Eriador. The Stoors come over the Redhorn Pass and move to the Angle, or to Dunland.

c. 1300 - The Perianath migrate westward; many settle at Bree.

1601 - Many Perianath migrate from Bree, and are granted land beyond Baranduin by Argeleb II.


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## Miguel (Jan 29, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> TA 1050 - Perianath are first mentioned in records, with the coming of the Harfoots to Eriador.



Could Rhovanion be a possible dwelling before this, or were they still in Hildórien, Wild Wood near Orocarni?.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jan 29, 2020)

Yes to the first -- at least the western parts, as we know Stoors lived on the banks on Anduin as late as Smeagol's youth. Others must have lived further north, since we know they had contact with the northern predecessors of the Rohirrim.

As to the east, no idea.


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## Olorgando (Jan 29, 2020)

Miguel said:


> Could Rhovanion be a possible dwelling before this, or were they still in Hildórien, Wild Wood near Orocarni?.


The Prologue in "Fellowship" states:
"It is clear, nonetheless, from [their most ancient legends, hardly looking back father than their wandering days], and from the evidence of their peculiar words and customs, that like many other folk Hobbits had in the distant past moved westward. Their earliest tales seem to glimpse a time when they dwelt in the upper vales of Anduin, between the eaves of Greenwood the Great and the Misty Mountains."
One might deduce, with all due caution, that "wandering days" could mean that they had a (semi-) nomadic way of life before crossing the Misty Mountains.

Then the description a little later about the the three different "breeds" of the Hobbits (echoing the three Houses each of the Eldar and of the Edain).

The Harfoots had much to do with the *Dwarves *in ancient times, and long lived in the foothills of the mountains. … They were the most normal and representative [and smallest] variety of Hobbit, and far the most numerous. They were the most inclined to settle in one place [_least nomadic?_], and longest preserved their ancestral habit of living in tunnels and holes.

The Stoors lingered long by the banks of the Great River Anduin, and were less shy of _*Men*_. ...

The Fallohides, the least numerous, were a northerly branch. They were more friendly with the *Elves *than the other Hobbits were, and had more skill in languages and song than in handicrafts; and of old the preferred hunting to tilling. ...

Dwellers in the foothills, dwellers on the river banks, northern hunters - stuff for a fanfic?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jan 29, 2020)

My impression was that "wandering days" referred to their time in Eriador, _after _crossing the Mountains. Much wandering during that period.


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## Olorgando (Jan 30, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> ... Others must have lived further north, since we know they had contact with the northern predecessors of the Rohirrim. ...


Appendix B Tale of Years for the Third Age gave me a bit of a pause regarding this bit of "knowledge", also part of my "mental furniture" about Middle-earth to date.
There is almost nothing here about Men except for the Dúnedain and their enemies for almost the first 2000 years TA. The first mention of others is:
"1977 Frumgar leads the Éothéod into the North." _(Due to the destruction of Angmar)_
This is about 900 to 800 years *after *the Hobbits had crossed the Misty Mountains westward (and over 500 before Eorl leads the Éothéod south again, to become the Rohirrim).
So whatever contact there can have been between Hobbit ancestors and Rohirrim ancestors in Rhovanion must by the time of the War of the (One) Ring have been over 2000 years ago! The mind boggles; mine does, certainly. 😳😲😵🥴


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