# Pippin's clumsiness in Moria



## Ithrynluin (Jul 17, 2002)

*Pippin's clumsyness in Moria*

I just got an idea fom the thread "Gandalf's anger".This might sound silly but here goes.
When Pippin accidentally tosses the bucket into the well,what exactly are the consequences of the noise the bucket makes (what a stupid question,I know ). But seriously now,does the bucket cause just a lot of racket and that's that or does it draw the orcs' attention or maybe even awakens the Balrog (if this last possibility is correct,then in a way one could say that Pip is responsible for Gandalf's death - it is a bit far fetched though).
So if anyone knows what I mean,share your thoughts.


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## Darth Saruman (Jul 18, 2002)

The bucket drops on the Balrog's head while he's sleeping. 
Then he gets really angry.


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## Gamil Zirak (Jul 18, 2002)

We're not for sure exactly what the bucket does because (unlike the movie) they are still a few days away from Balin's tomb and eventually running into any dwarves. The bucket might have tipped off the orcs that someone was coming through Moria, but it didn't make them head right on over there. I'm sure the orcs had some one watching for intruders into Morai; however, I don't think they expected anyone to come in from the West gate.


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## Rúmil (Jul 18, 2002)

Yes, I think the bucket might have roused the vigilance of the Orcs. Pip responsible for the death of Gandalf, hmm... I can see it from here: Pip sleeping at the broken gate of Orthanc, Gandalf in his white shroud, back from the dead, creeps behind and whispers: "Youuuu kiiiiiilled meeeee Piiiiippp...."


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## Lantarion (Jul 18, 2002)

What bucket?! As far as I remember, Pippin drops a rock down the well, not a bucket. You've seen the movie too many times, guys.. 
I don't think there are any actual consequences. As GZ pointed out, they were days away from the Chamber of Mazarbul, and no Orcs had come their way. I think the rock might have caught their attention, but I think it very likely that they just dismissed it as a loose part in the old masonry. You'll remember that the drums started up once the rock had fallen, maybe that was just a marching signal or sorts. I dunno. Ask JRR, he might know.


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## Ithrynluin (Jul 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Pontifex _
> *What bucket?! As far as I remember, Pippin drops a rock down the well, not a bucket.  *



Looky here,we totally forgot about that.Gotta let go of that darn movie!


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## Galdor (Jul 18, 2002)

"It may have had nothing to do with Peregrin's foolish stone; but probably something has been disturbed that would have been better left quiet. 
Gandalf ch. IV 

My guess is that Pip's stone didn't directly alert them to there presents but that the orcs were just being lazy and that the stone simple reminded them to keep a better watch on things.


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## Gil-Galad (Jul 19, 2002)

I get what do you mean but I don't think Pippin is responsible for Gandalf's "death".He just makes the Balrog angry as Darth Saruman says.But Gandalf ,not Pippin,makes a choise to sacrify himself.


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## Galdor (Jul 19, 2002)

I completely agree with you Gil-Galad. It was Gandalf's chose, if he wanted to he could have blown the bridge before the Balrog come and just ran with the rest of the Company.


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## Ithrynluin (Jul 19, 2002)

What??? 
Are you saying Gandalf *chose* to die in the confrontation with the Balrog? I don't get it?


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## Rúmil (Jul 19, 2002)

Yes; it was that sacrifice that allowed him to become Gandalf the White.


> For in his condition it was for him a sacrifice to perish on the Bridge in defence of his companions, less perhaps than for a mortal Man or Hobbit, since he had a far greater inner power than they; but also more, since it was a humbling and abnegation of himself in conformity to 'the Rules': for all he could know at that moment he was the only person who could direct the resistance to Sauron successfully, and all his mission was vain. He was handing over to the Authority that ordained the Rules, and giving up personal hope of success. That I should say is what the Authority wished, as a set-off to Saruman. The 'wizards', as such, had failed; or if you like: the crisis had become too grave and needed an enhancement of power. So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned.


 From letter #156


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## Ithrynluin (Jul 19, 2002)

Ooooh,I see.Now I understand,thanx for the quote.

But I still don't know what Galdor meant by:
if he wanted to he could have blown the bridge before the Balrog come and just ran with the rest of the Company.

This sounds like Gandalf is many many times stronger than the Balrog, when they are in fact (more or less) equals.
And if he really could have ran away with the rest,why didn't he do that?
I think that's a bit wrong there Galdor.


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## Galdor (Jul 19, 2002)

What I mean by that is that he could have broken the bridge like he did under the Balrogs feet before the Balrog got there. I think that Gandalf thought that out of every one who is still good in ME he probably had the best chance of killing the Balrog and also that the Valar and the Maiar should have destroyed all of the Balrogs in the War of Wrath he probably felt it his responsibility to kill him. But that is just my theory.


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## Lantarion (Jul 20, 2002)

It wouldn't have helped much to break the bridge before the Balrog had reached it. It was, after all, a Maia of considerable power and could have easily just leapt or hovered over the abyss. I think. 
But I don't think gandalf knew he would become the White Rider. He was given this enhancement because his act was completely selfless, and correct by the 'rules' of the Istari.


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## Gil-Galad (Jul 20, 2002)

Hmhmm...I agree with Pontifex.Gandalf probably knew that the balrog may go out of Moria.Let's just think......The Balrog was Maia and he had gone in Moria because of The War of Wrath.But the time had changed and the evil was powerfull again.I think the Balrog was able to feel it and awakened from Pippin's clumsyness he would be able to go outside Moria.That's why Gandalf decided not to run but to fight with him.In fact it was a fight that had to happen sometime......
But these are only my thoughts what would happen and what shoud happen


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## Ithrynluin (Jul 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Gil-Galad _
> *Hmhmm...I agree with Pontifex.Gandalf probably knew that the balrog may go out of Moria.Let's just think......The Balrog was Maia and he had gone in Moria because of The War of Wrath.But the time had changed and the evil was powerfull again.I think the Balrog was able to feel it and awakened from Pippin's clumsyness he would be able to go outside Moria.That's why Gandalf decided not to run but to fight with him.In fact it was a fight that had to happen sometime......
> But these are only my thoughts what would happen and what shoud happen *



Yeah,I agree with both you and Ponti,Gil-Galad.Gandalf sacrificing himself to rid ME of an evil being like the Balrog was very noble and selfless of him.


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## Gil-Galad (Jul 20, 2002)

Well,ithrynluin,we start the night with agreement but I guess that it won't be for long......I hope I'm wrong......


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## Gamil Zirak (Jul 23, 2002)

Just imagine the fellowship fleeing from Moria being chased by a Balrog outside. They would be in the wide open and easy targets. Gandalf had no choice but to stay and fight the Balrog.


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## Gil-Galad (Jul 23, 2002)

That's right Gamil Zirak and the balrog would do worse things tha killing r eat ing them ,he would go in Lotlorien and I doubt Galadriel would be able to stop him.


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## Ithrynluin (Jul 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Gil-Galad _
> *That's right Gamil Zirak and the balrog would do worse things tha killing r eat ing them ,he would go in Lotlorien and I doubt Galadriel would be able to stop him. *



Whaddya mean Gil? Of course Lady G could stop the Balrog! She would just pour the water from her mirror all over the Balrog and quench his fire. No fire,no Balrog!


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## Gamil Zirak (Jul 23, 2002)

Well if Galadriel defeated the Balrog, she would parish like everyone else that defeated a Balrog did. She wasn't a mighty warrior either so she wouldn't stand much of a chance.


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## Ithrynluin (Jul 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Gamil Zirak _
> *Well if Galadriel defeated the Balrog, she would parish like everyone else that defeated a Balrog did. She wasn't a mighty warrior either so she wouldn't stand much of a chance. *



Umm...I was just kiddin' there Gamil.


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## Gamil Zirak (Jul 23, 2002)

I thought you were, but I wasn't for sure.


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## Ithrynluin (Jul 23, 2002)

Yeah I guess that was a bit ambiguous there but that's why I put the big grin at the end (see I did it again )


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## Gil-Galad (Jul 27, 2002)

In conclusion of this post I would say that Gandalf did the right thing cause he had known what the Balrog would have done if it went out of Moria.So I think it wasn't Pippin's clumsyness but Gandalf cleverness which cause the Maia's "death"


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## Gil-Galad (Jul 27, 2002)

In conclusion of this post I would say that Gandalf did the right thing cause he had known what the Balrog would have done if it went out of Moria.So I think it wasn't Pippin's clumsyness but Gandalf cleverness which cause the Maia's "death".And ithrynluin,that was god idea for Galadriel's mirror


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## Maeglin (Jul 28, 2002)

As for Pippin awakening the orcs, yes I think he did it. Remember Moria is huge and has many paths, it just took the orcs a few days to find the 9 walkers. 
But as for Gandalf sacrificing himself, I think he maybe he could have killed it without sacrificing himself, but remember balrogs are from the first age and were created by Melkor, therefore making them more powerful than any of Saurons servants and able to rival gandalf's power. I also don't think he really cared
if he died because the Valar sent him and he knew he would be back to help his friends, and sacrificing himself just helped the Valar make him even more powerful when he came back because his act was completely selfless.


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## Gamil Zirak (Jul 29, 2002)

Gandalf didn't sacrifice himself. He broke the bridge and the balrog fell into the abyss below. As the balrog fell, he cracked his whip and got Gandalf by the leg. How's that a sacrifice?


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## Maeglin (Jul 29, 2002)

Ok good point, but he didn't have to stay on the bridge to fight the balrog, and maybe somehow he could have escaped his fall, I don't know. But do you agree with me about Pippin getting the orc's attention?


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## Gamil Zirak (Jul 29, 2002)

Maybe I do maybe I don't. The jury is still out on that one. It was several days after the rock that the fellowship reached Balin's tomb. Although, I don't have an explanation for why the orcs just showed up at the tomb. I'm still thinking.


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## Anamatar IV (Jul 31, 2002)

*Re: Pippin's clumsyness in Moria*

If you'll all remember...
A) It was a pebble.
B) The Balrog was Durins Bane. The Dwarves woke it by mining so deep.
C) The Orcs didnt come until they were in that tomb room. That was many hours after pippin through the stone down. Though moria is huge i would imagine that the orcs wouldnt take such a long time to find the 9. Dont you think they wouldve heard the drums sooner if the stone awoke the orcs? Orcs were well aware of their presence in moria. The birds were spies and the watcher in the water was disturbed.

I think the stone was just to show how on edge gandalf was.


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## Gamil Zirak (Jul 31, 2002)

*Re: Re: Pippin's clumsyness in Moria*



> _Originally posted by amerxtremist _
> *If you'll all remember...
> C) ... Orcs were well aware of their presence in moria. The birds were spies and the watcher in the water was disturbed.*


If the birds notified the orcs in Moria about the fellowship coming, wouldn't there be a band of orcs waiting by the entrance for them to come in? Also, wouldn't there be a few Nazgul on the East gate of Moria waiting for the fellowship to be flushed out? Also, how could the watcher in the water notify the orcs inside the mountain if he couldn't get in there and tell them?


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## Grond (Jul 31, 2002)

First.


> _From The Fellowship of the Ring, A Journey in the Dark,_
> Pippin felt curiously attracted by the well. While the others were
> unrolling blankets and making beds against the walls of the chamber, as far as possible from the hole in the floor, he crept to the edge and peered over. A chill air seemed to strike his face, rising from invisible depths. Moved by a sudden impulse he groped for a loose stone, and let it drop. He felt his heart beat many times before there was any sound. Then far below, as if the stone had fallen into deep water in some cavernous place, there came a plunk, very distant, but magnified and repeated in the hollow shaft.
> 
> ...


This quote leads me to believe that Pippin's rock disturbed the Balrog's sleep. 

Secondly, I doubt the Balrog would have left Moria. It was his home and had been for millenia. He was free to go anytime he pleased but chose not to. During the War of the Dwarves and Orcs, Dain Ironfoot had peered into the halls of Moria after he slew Azog and here is what he reported...


> _From The Return of the King, Appendix A, III Durin's Folk,_
> 'No,' said Dáin. 'you are the father of our folk, and we have bled for you, and will again. But we will not enter Khazad-dûm. You will not enter Khazad-dûm. Only I have looked through the shadow of the Gate. Beyond the shadow it waits for you still: Durin's Bane. The world must change and some other power than ours must come before Durin's Folk walk again in Moria.'


I also feel that Gandalf's actions were not pre-planned or pre-ordained. He sought to rescue his friends. He was their leader and he alone had the inner power to vanquish one of his own kindred. It was this selfless act that convinced the Valar that they were on the right path and caused them to restore him to the world as Gandalf the White. It wasn't Gandalf's desire to become White, it was his dedication to his mission to aid the People's of Middle-earth in overthrowing Sauron that entitled him to that reward.


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## Gil-Galad (Aug 3, 2002)

Grond,I see your poin and I'm agree.But...are 100% sure the balrog wouldn't go out of Moria.He is created by Melkor and I believe he has bee able to feel the evil coming from Mordor.Most of us know that the Balrogs have hidden themselves because of The War of Wrath.....but they didn't live in caves and the depths of Moria.That's why I believe they would go back in the world sopme day,when they are awakened and feel the evil is strong enough and outside is not dangerous place for them.


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## Grond (Aug 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Gil-Galad _
> *Grond,I see your poin and I'm agree.But...are 100% sure the balrog wouldn't go out of Moria.He is created by Melkor and I believe he has bee able to feel the evil coming from Mordor.Most of us know that the Balrogs have hidden themselves because of The War of Wrath.....but they didn't live in caves and the depths of Moria.That's why I believe they would go back in the world sopme day,when they are awakened and feel the evil is strong enough and outside is not dangerous place for them. *


Gil-galad, I'm not sure what the Balrog might have done had Sauron actually emerged from the War of the Ring victorious. The only thing I can say for certain is that the Balrog was first awakened in Moria in TA 1980 and for the next 1040 or so years does not, to our knowledge, ever leave the place. It is upon the Balrog's previous actions that I base my opinion that the Balrog would likely NOT leave.


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## Gil-Galad (Aug 10, 2002)

Grond,let's think in a more free way.The Balrog probably didn't go out of Moria teh first time he was awakened because it wasn't the right moment.I'll try to be more specific. .The Balrogs were Maia,so even,being Balrogs,the depths of Moria aren't their usual place to live.So the Balrog would go out someday when he has a chance to do it.And I think the best chance for the Balrog's returning is when he feel that the evil is strong again and there's no any danger for him.With the returning of Sauron in Mordor the power of "evil" was strong enough to make possible for the Balrog to go out of Moria.
But I repeat that's just a theory which woul happen.


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