# Is Sauron a Necromancer?



## Ecthelion (Jan 26, 2003)

Is Sauron a Necromacer? I was looking through the Index in the back of The Return of The King and saw 'Necromancer', right next to the word it says 'see Sauron', I never heard of Sauron bieng a Necromancer, so my question is, is Sauron really a Necromancer?


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## Glomund (Jan 26, 2003)

I do not know if he was a necromancer, but in the Hobbit the "Necromancer" was a evil wizard used as a excuse for Gandalf to leave Bilbo and the Dwarves for a while, and he evolved into Sauron as LotR was written


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## Ithrynluin (Jan 26, 2003)

Yes he is. He is skilled in dark sorcery. He knows ways to unnaturally prolong life of mortals (the Ringwraiths, arguably the Mouth of Sauron).


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## Bombadillo (Jan 27, 2003)

yes, sauron was presumably the necromancer mentioned in the hobbit, when the wizards assault the tower in mirkwood, sauron fled and went to Mordor...


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## Niniel (Jan 27, 2003)

Hey Bombadillo  
Are there any other wizards that are referred to as Necromancers, anywhere in Tolkien's work?


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## Brent (Jan 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ecthelion _
> *Is Sauron a Necromacer? I was looking through the Index in the back of The Return of The King and saw 'Necromancer', right next to the word it says 'see Sauron', I never heard of Sauron bieng a Necromancer, so my question is, is Sauron really a Necromancer? *



Tolkien doesn't really mean to use the word in its strict sense. Necromancer is a term for the evil presence in Dol Guldor not fortelling the Future by means of the Dead.
And yes Sauron IS THE Necromancer.


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## BlackCaptain (Jan 27, 2003)

A Necromancer is generally someone or something that conjurs spirits of the dead, and performs other magical things for evil use.

With that said, Sauron would be magicaly re-enabling himself since he is planning to take over middle earth again. The first reply also put it good. The white council was held when Gandalf left bilbo and the Dwarves in Mirkwood, and went to drive out the Necromancer from Dul Goldur in south Mirkwood. Tolkien then turned him into Sauron, when he was making his story bigger (LOTR). I assume, that when he was thinking of an enemy, the Necromancer came to mind, and he evolved him into Sauron, and then developed more characters such as Aragorn, the saver of man-kind, Legolas, the son of Thranduil, and Gimli, son of Gloin, all who are essential to the plot.


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## Bombadillo (Jan 27, 2003)

no there isn't but can't I just act like i know something about lotr??


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## Lantarion (Jan 28, 2003)

Hehe Bombadillo. 
MorgulKing, a Necromancer, as far as it's name is concerned, refers directly to the reanimating of the dead, and nothing else.
People, please don't try to categorize Tolkien's characters as things like "a Necromancer" or "a Witch" or "a Sorcerer". Apart from being all too D&D-ish, such rigid categories do not exist in Tolkien's world. So there.


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## 10000 strong (Jan 28, 2003)

Awesome, I never knew why Gandalf had to leave the hobbits behind, I especially never thought that it would be Sauron that he was going to!!!


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## BlackCaptain (Jan 28, 2003)

When he was writing the Hobbit, I dont think he knew it was Sauron. I dont even think he had any idea who exactly the necromancer was. The Necromancer was kind of an excuse for Gandalf to leave Bilbo and the Dwarves.

So technicaly, he didnt go to Sauron in Dol Guldor, until he had developed his thought more... I think i put that right...


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## Brent (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lantarion _
> *Hehe Bombadillo.
> MorgulKing, a Necromancer, as far as it's name is concerned, refers directly to the reanimating of the dead, and nothing else.
> People, please don't try to categorize Tolkien's characters as things like "a Necromancer" or "a Witch" or "a Sorcerer". Apart from being all too D&D-ish, such rigid categories do not exist in Tolkien's world. So there.  *



One hates to enter pedant of the year award but Necromancer is one who divines the future by means of the dead, just like a geomancer is one who divines the future by means of the earth and cartomancer is one who divines the future by means of cards.
You don't have to reanimate them, though many famous woodblocks from the 15/16 00's show this.

Couldn't agree more with your second point, though I think D&D pinched ALL their character classes from the characters in Tolkien.

any takers on who is what ?


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## Úlairi (Dec 29, 2003)

*The Necromancer of Dol Guldur...*



> *Necromancy*: _The practice of supposedly communicating with the spirits of the dead in order to predict the future._



Which of the dead would have these inherent qualities? Did Tolkien give any consideration to this? Was the 'gift of foresight' actually given to the Wise by those who were dead? We know that Mandos could certainly see the future, he predicted it many times, and he is in constant contact with the dead. Any opinions?


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## grendel (Dec 29, 2003)

I suspect that he took the word to mean "evil sorcerer" or something like that... it does have an evil sound to it. I didn't realize it had an official definition.


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## Illuvatar (Dec 29, 2003)

Also, keep in mind that he wasn't really a Necromancer after all, he was the most powerful of all the Balrogs and Morgoth's right-hand man



> Of old there was Sauron the Maia, whom the Sindar in Beleriand named Gorthaur. In the beginning of Arda Melkor seduced him to his allegiance, and he became the greatest and most trusted of the servants of the Enemy, and the most perilous, for he could assume many forms, and for long if he willed he could still appear noble and beautiful, and so deceive all but the most wary.



--The Silmarillion, pg. 285


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## Úlairi (Dec 29, 2003)

Huh, I really don't know why I bother, but here goes:



> _The History of Middle-earth XI: The War of the Jewels: The Later Quenta Silmarillion: 15 Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin: §143_
> *"'Sauron was the chief servant of the evil Vala, whom he had suborned to his service in Valinor from among the people of the gods. He was become a wizard of dreadful power, master of necromancy, foul in wisdom'..."*





> *"...master of necromancy..."*



Think that says it all there, so, now we have all the petty stuff out of the way, let's get into the more interesting aspect of the conversation!


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## nthman (Dec 29, 2003)

I'm not sure your definition is entirely accurate. I've always been under the impression that necromancy pertained to any sort of counsultation with the dead and not neccesarily telling the future. I could be wrong though, I'm no expert on the occult. It is a very interesting theory in any case.


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## Inderjit S (Dec 30, 2003)

> It is therefore a foolish and perilous thing, besides being a wrong deed forbidden justly by the appointed Rulers of Arda, if the Living seek to commune with the Unbodied, though the houseless may desire it, especially the most unworthy among them. For the Unbodied, wandering in the world, are those what the least have refused the door of life and remain in regret and self-pity. Some are filled with bitterness, grievance, and envy. Some were enslaved by the Dark Lord and do his work still though he himself is gone. They will not speak truth or wisdom. To call on them is folly. To attempt to master them and to make them servants of one own's will is wickedness. Such practices are of Morgoth; and the necromancers are of the host of Sauron his servant.
> Some say that the Houseless desire bodies, though they are not willing to seek them lawfully by submission to the judgement of Mandos. The wicked among them will take bodies, if
> they can, unlawfully. The peril of communing with them is, therefore, not only the peril of being deluded by fantasies or lies: there is peril also of destruction. For one of the hungry Houseless, if it is admitted to the friendship of the Living, may seek to eject the fëa from its body and in the contest for mastery the body may be gravely injured, even if it he not wrested from its rightful habitant. Or the Houseless may plead for shelter, and if it is admitted, then it will seek to enslave its host and use both his will and his body for its own purposes. It is said that
> Sauron did these things, and taught his followers how to achieve them.


 _LQII; HoME 10_ 



> Also, keep in mind that he wasn't really a Necromancer after all, he was the most powerful of all the Balrogs and Morgoth's right-hand man





> Sauron was now become a sorcerer of dreadful power...


 _Of The Ruin of Beleriand_ 

Also, Sauron wasn't a Balrog.


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## Úlairi (Dec 31, 2003)

Was that _Later Quenta_ Inder? 'They do not speak truth or wisdom'. Hmmmm, but they can be used in a sense. This could make a very interesting discussion. Thanks for thre quote Inder.


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## Illuvatar (Jan 1, 2004)

I may be wrong, but in LOTR somewhere, I seem to remember Gandalf saying that the Balrog he slew was the most powerful one, SAVE THE ONE AT THE TOP OF THE DARK TOWER! Unless I'm mistaken, Sauron is the only thing on top of Barad-Dur, unless he had gathered some of the remnants of Morgoth's Balrogs to himself.


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## Confusticated (Jan 1, 2004)

I don't know about getting foresight from the dead. Sauron, as a Maia, should have more foreknowledge than the spirit of a dead man or elf. But I will get to this below. The gift of foresight could come direct from Iluvatar, or second-hand from someone else who had seen the future... Melian or Ulmo for example.

If the spirits of men or elves have any true knowledge of the future, and a necromancer gets this from them, I would doubt that it really foresight. I think it would be more like going to a fortune-teller that seems to speak the truth... you hear of the future from someone, but do not see it with true foresight.


I also had the impression that necromancy was just some art of dealing with the dead... and not necessarily doing this to learn of the future.

But if someone thinks Sauron was able to get knowledge of the future from the dead, then I'd be interested in hearing how it is that the spirits of dead men get this information... are they free to travel in time within Arda or do they get some amazing education through contact with other spirits such as Ainur? I doubt the spirits of men and elves that stick around Arda would have too much contact with Ainur. Perhaps only Mandos for a time? But any spirit that sticks around wandering Arda has refused something... and is not on the right path... so their communication with Ainur spirits seems very unlikely to me. But, if the spirits of the Children can actually travel in time within Arda and see the future, then perhaps they could transfere that vision direct to a living spirit, but as Inder has shown, these visions could not be trusted... and if they are decietful they are not foresight.


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## Illuvatar (Jan 1, 2004)

It seems unlikely that he has the gift of foresight, because if he did, he would have posted a heavier guard around Mordor so that Frodo and Sam couldn't get in, wouldn't he? I mean, the first and foremost reaon he probably would have used his foresight for would be to discover his weaknesses, wouldn't he?


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## jallan (Jan 1, 2004)

For a fuller definition of necromancy:


> NOUN:	*1.* The practice of supposedly communicating with the spirits of the dead in order to predict the future. *2.* Black magic; sorcery. *3.* Magic qualities.
> 
> ETYMOLOGY: Alteration of Middle English _nigromancie_, from Old French _nigremancie_, from Medieval Latin _nigromantia_, alteration (influenced by Latin _niger_, black) of Late Latin _necromantia_, from Greek _nekromanteia_ : _nekros_, corpse; see *nek-¹* in Appendix I + _manteia_, divination; see –mancy.


There is a fuller discussion at Catholic Encyclopeida: Necromancy.

As the citation given by Inderjit S indicates, Tolkien in the case of Sauron agrees speaks both of consultation and making the dead into servants.

One can speculate that spirits of the dead were imprisoned within the watching statues at Cirith Ungol or that the Barrow-wights were in origin sprits of the dead given the power to possess the corpses of those lying within the barrows.

But as Nóm indicates (in agreement with the citation from Tolkien provided by Inderjit S) it seems unlikely that the dead could have much knowledge of the future in Tolkien’s legendarium.

Ghosts as watchers and spies would appear to be useful. But no-one ever expresses fear of being overheard by the hostile dead. Perhaps the dead, unless able to partly anchor themselves in a stream or tree or something like that, are blown hither and yon against any will of their own and seldom have opportunity to reveal what they might on occasion perceive.

If one believes folklore, many ghosts are bound to the place of their death. Something of that kind appears with the Dead summoned by Aragorn. It is odd that the only case of something resembling communion with the dead in Tolkien’s legendarium involves the “good guys”.


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## Úlairi (Jan 1, 2004)

All very notable indeed jallan, and yes, the watchers certainly could have been some of the dead. What would interest me, however, is if they could be used to find the Ring! Perhaps whenever the company feels 'a shadow; pass over them, it may indeed be one of the dead in Sauron's service.


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## Inderjit S (Jan 2, 2004)

Yes, Ulairi it is found in the Latter Quenta (II) in 'Laws and Customs of the Eldar'.


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## Arthur_Vandelay (Jun 8, 2004)

*Why is Sauron called a Necromancer*

Please forgive me if this question has been asked elsewhere.

Why is Sauron called a Necromancer?


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## Gamil Zirak (Jun 8, 2004)

He went under that name so that no one would know he was coming back into power. Once the White Council found out who he was, they ran him off (although he was ready to go back to Mordor anyway).


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## Gandalf White (Jun 8, 2004)

So did he just assume that title, or was there some justification for its usage?


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## Saermegil (Jun 8, 2004)

This was discussed in another thread a while back. Never Mind.

A necromancer I think is supposed to be able to communicate with the dead to predict the future. It also more widely associated with black magic. It's greek : nekros=dead+mantis= seer.


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## Gandalf White (Jun 8, 2004)

How far back was that, as I must go searching for it. Or could you sum up what was discussed?

I had always associated a necromancer with (of course) black magic, but also the ability to raise spirits/bodies from the dead.


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## Saermegil (Jun 8, 2004)

I just remember there was a similar thread to this one. Not much else.


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## Snaga (Jun 15, 2004)

Its way too time-consuming to read other threads. I doubt that Sauron called himself the necromancer. As he had the 9 in his service, the title seems apt. Perhaps the woodmen of Mirkwood called him that? It is not elvish.


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## Inderjit S (Jun 15, 2004)

'The Hobbit' and 'The Lord of The Rings' are of course translations. So necromancer may just be the equivalent to the equivalent title in Westron or the tongue of the woodmen. Tolkien uses necromancer to describe the sorcerers under Sauron in Dol Guldur. Necromancy seems to be quite a arhaic word for practicing some kind of black magic. I remember coming across the words in the Faust books (Marlowe and Goethe, can't remember coming across it in the Thomas Mann version).


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