# Arwen's Immortality



## Eöl_Nan Elmoth (Oct 15, 2002)

I was told that my idea is wrong....you tell me. What are you thoughts and opnions? Please, if you make any claims, support them with written sources.

here is my essay:

Arwen's immortality


It should be addressed that Arwen is not immortal and does not lose her "immortality" when she marries Aragon. Arwen is not immortal and neither are the rest of the elves. They are subject to death as man is. The reference of "mortal" to men is that when they die and are not bound to anything as the elves are.
The firstborn of the Iluvatar are known as the Elves, then Man who are also born from the same source(Silmarillion, 41 paragraph 1). Because they are born from the same source they share similarities. Each were given different gifts according to what Eru had knowledge of.


"It is with this gift of freedom that the children of Men dwell only a short space in the world alive, and are not bound to it... Whereas the Elves remain until the end of days, and their love of the Earth and all the world is more single and poingant therefore, and as the years lengthen ever more sorrowful. For the Elves die not till the world dies, unless they are slain or waste in grief( and to both these seeming deaths they are subject)"(Silmarillion 42 last paragraph).
Since Elves are subject to death and are can be slain, they cannot be immortal. Being immortal means that you last forever and cannot be killed, while mortality signifies that you have to die sometime. The only difference between an elf dying and a human dying is that an elf is bound to the earth and will return when the Earth is reborn. "And dying they are gathered to the halls of Mandos in Valinor, whence they may in time return"(Silmarillion 42, end of last paragraph).
The term refering to "mortal men" is rather simple but easily confused. This term is merely used to refer to difference between an elf and a human without using either term. These differences lie with their lifespans and their gifts.

The question of whether Arwen is immortal is very simple, she is not immortal. The only thing that would signify her difference is that she did not follow her father. "Elrond grew weary at last and foresook Middle-earth, never to return" leaving with the rest of the elves. Arwen remained behind to become *as a* mortal woman, not *a* mortal woman (Return of the Kings, 426 Appedendix A:5 p 426 forty-first printing book edition). She remained with the rest of the Men and died outside of the haven in Lothlorien.


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## Ceorl (Oct 15, 2002)

I am afraid I do not have any books handy, so I cannot supply any quotes, but I assure you I will not post anything that I am not 100% sure off.

Elves are immortal in that they live a long time, and they cannot die unless slain by wound or grief, and when that happens they do not leave the world, but go to the halls of Mandos in Valinor from which they can by resurrected at the will of the Valar. It is said in the Sil, under the curse of Mandos, 'although you have been set not to die in Arda, you can be slain by injury or grief...' (not sure about the wording, dont have my nooks with me)

I take from your statements that you may be thinking of Elves and Men as the children of Illuvatar, literally. I do not have the time to explain fully the nature of Eru and the Ainur, but suffice it to say that they were made as the offspring of his thought; he imagined them, and they _were_.

When Earendil, the father of Elrond reached Valinor, the Valar gave to the children of Earendil, the choice, of whether they would be counted among the Eldar or the Atani, Elrond chose Eldar, his brother Elros the Atani. A further doom was then set upon the children of Elrond; as he was now Elven he was permitted when he grew weary of ME, to take the straight road to Valinor; however his children had to take the road with him, or else, remain in ME and lose their immortality, whereby they will die even as mortal men. So that is why the parting of Elrond and his daughter Arwen was so sad; it was to endure beyond the end of the world.


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## Cian (Oct 15, 2002)

Tolkien did use 'immortal' but note his sense with the word:

_"The Elves were sufficiently longeval to be called by Man 'immortal'. But they were not unaging or unwearying."_ ~JRRT 1963

"In this mythical 'prehistory' _immortality,_ strictly longevity co-extensive with the life of Arda, was part of the given nature of the Elves." and _"(true immortality is beyond Eä)."_ ~JRRT 1958

On Arwen, interestingly Tolkien himself would pen.

_"Arwen was not an Elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her Elvish rights."_ ~JRRT 1972

Quotes (not all on the subject) from various _Letters_


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## Lantarion (Oct 15, 2002)

Huzaa for the _Letters_!!  

Welcome to the forum, Eöl_Nan Elmoth! I can't say that your opinions are not well-founded, I just think that you may have misunderstood some things. But I'm glad to find a 'newbie' so interested in Tolkien.


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## Wonko The Sane (Oct 17, 2002)

But aren't the elves _essentially_ immortal since they can go to the UNDYING lands and "live" or at least "exist" forever in Valinor? 
That seems pretty immortal to me...


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## Grond (Oct 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Wonko The Sane _
> *But aren't the elves essentially immortal since they can go to the UNDYING lands and "live" or at least "exist" forever in Valinor?
> That seems pretty immortal to me... *


 They are immortal in the sense that their spirits dwell in Middle-earth in the Halls of Mandos (unless they are restored) for as long as the world lasts. Tolkien makes it clear that Middle-earth is not infinite. It had its own alpha and it will have its own omega. When that occurs, the Valar and Maiar will be restored as Ainur, unbound to the world and Man's ultimate destiny will become clear.

The Legend of the Last Battle has Tulkas with Feanor on his right and Turin on his left fighting a released Melkor. The Black Blade will deliver Melkor's death blow. Then all the Elves and all the souls of Men will assemble in Valinor and the Music shall be remade and the Song resung so that the world will be as it was originally intended before Melkor marred it. 

At least that's the way I interpret Tolkien's explanation. I'm sure others will correct me if they disagree.


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## Wonko The Sane (Oct 18, 2002)

Oh no, I agree completely and understand that fully.
I view the elves "immortality" to be bound up in Arda the same way that the fate of the Valar are bound up in it. In that way the elves spirits will exist until the world declines into nothing. That I understand perfectly. I guess it's just the WORD immortality that we look at differently, although I understand completely the concepts behind the span of Elvish "life."


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