# The Council of Elrond



## 1stvermont (Dec 30, 2019)

So as I am rereading LOTR [first time since I have studied the first two ages and it makes a very big difference as I am sure many already know] and I am noticing all kinds of new stuff. One was I had always thought Elrond called the council. I think I got this from the movie when denethor says to boromir that Elrond has called a secret metting and he sends boromir. But rereading this does not seem the case at all. 

“_I have not called you to me, strangers, from distant lands. You have come and are here met, in this very nick of time, by chance as it may seem.”
-Elrond Council of Elrond _


This also helps me understand why Rohan or Galdriel or a representative of Lorien was not at the council. Boromir and Gandalf both mention Rohan at the council, but nothing of why they were not their, because they were not invited, neither were the others. The council was just of who was already there that happened to be on errands "by chance."


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Dec 31, 2019)

That was in the movie? Another thing I seem to have blocked from memory.

Again, I'm hampered by not having the Letters or HoME with me, but IIRC, at this point in the writing, Tolkien hadn't yet decided -- or as he would put it "had not yet discovered" the nature of the Rohirrim, as in the case of Treebeard, who as I recall remained "evil" until the narrative came to Fangorn. I believe it was in the famous letter to Auden, in which he says he "had no more idea than Frodo who Strider was".


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## 1stvermont (Dec 31, 2019)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> That was in the movie? Another thing I seem to have blocked from memory.
> 
> Again, I'm hampered by not having the Letters or HoME with me, but IIRC, at this point in the writing, Tolkien hadn't yet decided -- or as he would put it "had not yet discovered" the nature of the Rohirrim, as in the case of Treebeard, who as I recall remained "evil" until the narrative came to Fangorn. I believe it was in the famous letter to Auden, in which he says he "had no more idea than Frodo who Strider was".




It might have been the extended edition. But denethor sends boromir to bring the ring back to gondor to use as a weapon in dire situations.


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## Alcuin (Dec 31, 2019)

The passage in the book reads,
“…The Ring! What shall we do with the Ring, the least of rings, the trifle that Sauron fancies? That is the doom that we must deem.

“That is the purpose for which you are called hither. Called, I say, though I have not called you to me, strangers from distant lands. You have come and are here met, in this very nick of time, by chance as it may seem. Yet it is not so. Believe rather that it is so ordered that we, who sit here, and none others, must now find counsel for the peril of the world.”​_Other powers._ This is one of many references to Providence. Gandalf told Frodo in “Shadow of the Past”, 
“There was more than one power at work, Frodo. ... Behind that there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-maker. I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker. In which case you also were meant to have it.”​And when the Company debates what to do while Frodo flees from Boromir, the majority decides to force Frodo to go to Minas Tirith with the Ring, to essentially kidnap him, but Aragorn says,
“He is the Bearer, and the fate of the Burden is on him. I do not think that it is our part to drive him one way or the other. Nor do I think that we should succeed, if we tried. There are other powers at work far stronger.”​There are many others. As they struggle to reach the Sammath Naur, the Chamber of Fire, in Mount Doom, Frodo and Sam are suddenly roused as if they were called: 
Suddenly a sense of urgency which he did not understand came to Sam. It was almost as if he had been called: “Now, now, or it will be too late!” He braced himself and got up. Frodo also seemed to have felt the call. He struggled to his knees.​And there are even more: Sam cries out in Sindarin, which he does not know. I think it would be quite a task to list them all, since many are easily overlooked. Gandalf’s battle with the Balrog, which seems such a disaster at the time, preserves Lórien from its assault a few weeks later when Sauron launches his war: that was his purpose in dealing with the Balrog, a purpose Celeborn clearly understood, one that frightened even him. Boromir’s fall to temptation breaks the Fellowship at just the right moment, sending Frodo and Sam on their journey alone, sending Merry and Pippin to rouse the Ents and crush Saruman’s power, sending Aragorn to the succour of Rohan. What seems disastrous is not, but remains a burden and a struggle through which the characters must bear themselves to an outcome they did not dare to hope, what Tolkien calls _eucastrophe_.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Dec 31, 2019)

1stvermont said:


> It might have been the extended edition. But denethor sends boromir to bring the ring back to gondor to use as a weapon in dire situations.



It was in the Two Towers EE.


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## Alcuin (Dec 31, 2019)

1stvermont said:


> It might have been the extended edition. But denethor sends boromir to bring the ring back to gondor to use as a weapon in dire situations.


I’m sorry. In the book, while both Boromir and Faramir have heard of the Enemy’s Ring, neither of them know anything about it. They do not know that Isildur took it, they do not know what part it played in his demise. Both are shocked to learn that it has been found, and while their responses are diametrically opposed, and they are not only quick but immediate on the uptake, it is plain they knew _nothing_, absolutely nothing, of the Ring.

Is this another of Peter Jackson’s changes, that he makes Denethor the opponent of the Wise, of Elrond and Gandalf, not merely jealous of Aragorn but his outright enemy? Nothing more than a mortal Sauron?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Dec 31, 2019)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> It was in the Two Towers EE.


What the--?! 

I've had the EE's for years, but have put off watching them.

I see the time has come to put them off a while longer.

Edit: BTW, Erestor (and Alcuin), my "reactions" aren't to your posts, but to PJ.

If multiples were possible, I would have added 😲, ☹, and 🤣.

And if it were available, 🤪!


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## grendel (Jan 10, 2020)

Alcuin said:


> _Other powers._ This is one of many references to Providence.



I was always struck by this idea throughout the tale of other powers at work, and wondered to whom Tolkien might be referring. The Valar? I think not. I remain convinced that they cared not a whit for Men, who being "here today, gone tomorrow" would hardly catch their attention. Once they had the immortal Elves all gathered 'round in Valinor, they were happy as pigs eating coal. [Pigs like to eat coal.]
I have read in other places here, in the discussion over "who the *[email protected]#? is Tom Bombadil", that perhaps he was (is) the personification or extension of Eru Iluvatar himself, using a portion of his omniscience to enjoy his creation, or maybe keep an eye on things. He was in a position, there in the Old Forest, to influence the flow of events, or maybe nudge things in a certain direction, i.e. Gollum losing the Ring just as Bilbo wanders into his cave to find it. He was certainly closer than the Valar, even Ulmo. It's my favorite theory of the moment, anyway.


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