# Morgoth's sea creatures



## Helm (Apr 2, 2006)

My friend and I were having a discussion on Morgoth's sea creatures. Does Morgoth have sea creatures under his domain. I hold the veiw the he not have any sea creatures. Of course there is the watcher at the gate of Moria, but is that Morgoth's, Souron's, or the watcher own himself? I do not think the book says explicitly one way or another. Any thoughts?


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## YayGollum (Apr 3, 2006)

Huh. This is cool, since I was just recently wondering the same thing, to myself. Running through all of the strange things to be found in this Tolkien person's waters, I couldn't think of anything that was especially evil. That Ulmo dude was pretty cool and probably would have been achingly adamant about protecting against that sort of thing. Also, what motivation would Mel have had to mess with the sea overly much? Not much of interest happened there. Would water dragons be inconceivable? Out of any dragonish thing, they make the most sense to me. Lots of space, lots of food, and lots of targets. But then, the sea is Ulmo's place and Mel seemed to be way more of a fan of killing off elves, who weren't much into sea travel, except for mostly around their safe little island near Valinor. 

Anyways, as to that Watcher In The Water dude, he was an enigma, as far as I know. Where did that water come from? Was there some passage that the thing took to get there from some far creepier place? Why would the thing have stuck around in that area, which wasn't getting very much traffic, at the time? I wouldn't know.


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## HLGStrider (Apr 3, 2006)

Even Sauron's creatures tend to avoid water, most noticeably the Nazgul, so I don't think Melkor has evil creatures in the great seas, but that in no way prevents independently evil creatures from dwelling there. After all, even Elves can go bad, and unless we assume that Ulmo has perfect (here meaning "complete") control over everything in his realm, which would seem to be atypical of the Valar in general, we have to assume that sea creatures are capable of some form of corruption (well, we don't HAVE to, but I think it is more logically consistant than the alternative). However, being deprived of a direct connection to Morgoth, they are probably a weaker evil, driven more by selfish whim than a united force of destruction.

Evil does not unite. Power unites evil via force, but it takes goodness to band together people willingly in Tolkien's universe. Other alliances for other purposes tend to fall apart and break into civil war or whatnot. The Orcs don't serve Sauron because they necessarily admire him or want him to be king or think the world would be "better" under him. They serve because he is bigger than them and could squash them.


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## baragund (Apr 4, 2006)

I'm kind of curious why Melkor never carried his war to the sea. Sure Ulmo was master of the seas and all waters but that doesn't mean they were immune to corruption. The Watcher is one example of a bad guy living in the water, even though he seems to be independent of Melkor / Sauron just like Ungoliant was. Another would be the account of when Melkor built Utumno during the days of the lamps. He corrupted rivers where they "...were choked with weeds and slime, and fens were made, rank and poisonous, the breeding place of flies...". The Dead Marshes is another example of an unwholesome body of water.

After the Noldor settled in Beleriand, Finrod built watch towers along the coast in defence of a possible sea attack from Melkor. Barad Nimras was one of these towers "...to watch the western sea, though needlessly, as it proved; for at no time ever did Morgoth essay to build ships or to make war by sea. Water all his servants shunned, and to the sea none would willingly go nigh, save in dire need."

Manwe was supposed to be master of the skies and the eagles were his servants but that didn't stop Melkor from creating the winged dragons nor did it prevent Sauron from creating the long night during the siege of Minas Tirith. Why didn't he develop his ability to operate in water? 

It seems to me Melkor handicapped himself by not taking his war to the seas and rivers. He may not have _liked_ operating in water but it wasn't impossible for him to do it.


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## Turgon (Apr 4, 2006)

Ulmo in comparison to the other Valar had a lot of things working in his favour, being as it were, the only competent power that be'd. (Is that a word? Well it should be...) Manwe was handicapped to some degree by the Valar's decision to take a more hands off approach to world governance - Ulmo by contrast played these rules a little loose. Melkor, of course, did try to gain some influence in Ulmo's sphere by trying (and succeeding briefly) to seduce Osse to 'the cause'. Ulmo's subsequent handling of the would be rebel putting the rest of the Valar to shame and drawing Osse back into the fold... or into his net... depending on whether you want a sea theme to his actions or not. Makes you wonder if Eru chose the right person to rule over Arda really. I used to believe that maybe the music of Ulmo was an echo of some greater music... hence it's power.

Ulmo never truly abandoned Middle-earth, so perhaps it was much harder for the Dark Lord to gain sway there? Perhaps Melkor gave up his attempts after the unsuccessful advances to Osse? Or maybe Melkor was just slightly miffed that his most succesful attempt to meddle in Ulmo's affairs gave us pretty little snowflakes, and he really didn't like the result? Morgoth fancied himself as a bit of a hard man after all.

It does beg the question though: Fastitocalon - Myth or Monster?


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## YayGollum (Apr 4, 2006)

Neither, of course. just another unique and superly cool thing. Like Uin or those creepy things that tunnel under everything. Sure, I guess that you could call him a monster, just because he's a really big version of something. *sniff* Poor dude.

Anyways, to all of the people pointing out why Mel should have had more oceanic minions ---> You gots to remember that most of his minions were spirits that enjoyed his music in the beginning of time, their descendants, or creepy things that he made for himself. Sure, he could have kidnapped a few water spirits, but water is all about purity. Yay Ulmo! I wouldn't be surprised if most water spirits thought a lot like he did. Also, Mel had used up a lot of his energy already while messing with things on land, which is where he enjoyed conducting his business.


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## Turgon (Apr 4, 2006)

Sure the Fastitocalon is unique and superly cool, but the story of the Fastitocalon bears too many similarities to the Downfall of Numenor for the myth part of the question to be dismissed. Given that the word monster come from the Old English 'to warn' or 'an omen or portent', (my dictionary predates the First World War... so I'm not too sure how relevant it is!?!) perhaps the Fastitocalon should be considered as both. Still, Fastitocalon is one of those Tolkien tales I love the most... I always wanted my old piratical RP character Serewing killed off during a hunt for the Fastitocalon, (a monster that had always plagued his imagination - think Captain Ahab) when the mighty turtle tries to mate with Serewing's ship and sends the Corsair crashing down to Davy Jones Locker... or the Middle-earth equivilant... Arvedui's Winter Holiday Home?

*shrugs*


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## Arelindalë (Apr 5, 2006)

The _Valaquenta_ mentions that 'Melkor hated the Sea, for he could not subdue it.' 

So far as we know, a failed attempt at luring Ossë to serve him was about as far as he could go in his efforts to subjugate the Sea. I would guess that the creatures within were within the power of Ulmo, or under his protection.


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## Ingwë (Apr 13, 2006)

> 'Then, said Glorfindel, 'let us cast it into the deeps, and so make the lies of Saruman come true. For it is clear now that even at the Council his feet were already on a crooked path. He knew that the Ring was not lost for ever, but wished us to think so; for he began to lust for it for himself. Yet oft in lies truth is hidden: in the Sea it would be safe.'
> *`Not safe for ever,' said Gandalf. `There are many things in the deep waters;* and seas and lands may change. And it is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world. We should seek a final end of this menace, even if we do not hope to make one.'


I don't think that Ulmo had created them. By thinkgs I think Gandalf means living things like the watcher, not something else. 
In spite of all I think that there are Melkor's creatures in the sea. Probably they are currupted Maia or smth. like that.


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## HLGStrider (Apr 13, 2006)

I still don't think evil necessarily implies Morgoth created the creatures. No matter who created them they can still be corrupted. Morgoth did not create men and they were bent to Sauron's will by the power of the rings. 

Any creature that found and kept the ring would eventually be drawn to Sauron and evil. 

Either that or we could have a really large seal set up as the next dark lord. . .hmm. . .


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## Sangahyando (Apr 22, 2006)

Quite simply if we derive the species of the Watcher in the Water from Tolkien's sources, we can work out that it may possibly be a Kraken.


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## Elfarmari (May 28, 2006)

I don't think Melkor had sea creatures who served him, simply because they never figure in any tale. Ulmo must have been vigilant. However, there were definitely creatures in the deeps of the sea, which might not have been evil but probably would have been terrifying. In the vision that Ulmo shows to Tuor at Vinyamar (in Unfinished Tales), "The Great See he saw through its unquiet regions teeming with strange forms, even to its lightless depths, in which amid the everlasting darkness there echoed voices terrible to mortal ears." 
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## Neumy (Sep 13, 2006)

I agree that Melkor avoided the waters and did not bring his battle to those depths. But I have two points for there being a few sea creatures lurking in the seas.

1) Tolkien was writing "legends / miths" and evil sea creatures fit into that category very easily. What's a good legend without a sea monster? Although Tolkien didn't write of any, I think his universe would be incomplete without one or two of them.

2) Melkor ultimate goal was to destroy and infect all good works with his evil. Why would he ignore the seas? Although it was not his primary focus and battle ground, I'm sure he corrupted a few of the friendly sea creatures and let them wreck havoc until Ulmo could deal with them.


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## gilgalad (Mar 12, 2007)

The reasons it's unlikely that Melkor had any minions of power worth speaking of in the sea are, to my mind, as follows:-

First and most obvious, Tolkien never mentions them, implying that there are none worth speaking of.

Second, the sea was under the dominion of Ulmo (a Vala whose power rivalled that of Manwe) and at least two who were counted very strong among the Maia in Uinen and Osse. The fact that very few of the Maia are even named, let alone spoken of at the length these two are suggests they were mighty among the Maiar. It seems three spirits of such power could marshall the oceans pretty well between them.

Thirdly, Melkor didn't really have a need of sea creatures. His war with the Noldor and co. was essentially a defensive one seeing as in large part the idea was that he would hold onto the Silmarils. Another big point of the war was that he didn't much like elves and wanted to kill as many of them as possible. There was no real need, in this context, for Melkor to have a navy of any sort since most of the elves he wanted to kill were on middlearth anyway and didnt have any supplies or reenforcements being shipped in from Aman that he would need to cut off.

Basically, any spirits that might be mighty enough to have withstood Ulmo, Osse and Uinen and held its own in the sea would have served Melkor better on land....


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## Aglarband (Mar 31, 2007)

I'd have to say there are "bad things" in the water aside from the Watcher in the Water. Otherwise there would be no natural predators for the fish in Tolkien's world.


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## Finrod Felagund (May 20, 2007)

I doubt it was under Sauron's influence but it seems very conveinient for him that it chose to live outside the gate into Moria thus acting as a sort of guard against those who wished to escape or travel through it.


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