# Gondor next to Mordor - wisdom or folly?



## Arvedui (Dec 18, 2003)

_From LOTR, The Appendices, Appendix A, I, The Númenorean Kings, (i) Númenor:_


> There they established in the North-west the Númenorean realms in exile, Arnor and Gondor. Elendil was the High King and dwelt in the North at Annúminas; and the rule in the South was committed to his sons, Isildur and Anárion. They founded there Osgiliath, between Minas Ithil and Minas Anor, not far from the confines of Mordor.


 Was it a mistake placing Gondor so close to the realm of their greatest possible enemy?
They had no space between themselves and Mordor, little room that could give them ample warning if an attack was underway. On the other hand, establishing a strong Numenorean realm nest to Mordor would probably be able to check further expansion on Sauron's part.


Any ideas?


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## Wonko The Sane (Dec 18, 2003)

Well, the quote I'm about to post deals only with the Nazgul crossing the river, but still:

From The Silmarillion "Of The Rings of Power and The Third Age":



> And northward, beyond the Falls of Rauros and the Gates of the Argonath, there were as yet other defences, powers more ancient of which Men knew little, against whom the things of evil did not dare to move, until in the ripening of time thier dark lord, Sauron, should come forth again. And until that time was come, never again after the days of Eärnil did the Nazgul dare to cross the River or to come forth from their city in shape visible to men.




This quote doesn't answer the entire question...It says that "things of evil" dared not move, but suggests Sauron DID dare, and of course only mentions a specific time period, which ended of course, after Eärnil's death.

But it still suggests that there were other forces OTHER than Gondor which kept the evil in check.
Perhaps these forces could have kept Mordor at bay more effectively than Gondor, and Gondor wouldnt' have had to endure all the hardships that came from living so close to Mordor.



I dunno. I'm not smart about Tolkien...so ignore me if that was dumb.


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## grendel (Dec 18, 2003)

You didn't include the next line, which seems to me to be a factor: "For this good at least they believed had come out of ruin, that Sauron had also perished."

They did not realize that Sauron had survived the wreck of Numenor, and simply settled where the Numenoreans had always sailed to Middle-Earth, near the mouth of the Anduin. They perhaps also wanted to be able to contain the evil that still lurked in Mordor from his previous occupancy.


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## Inderjit S (Dec 18, 2003)

As Grendel says they didn't *know* Sauron had survived the downfall of Númenor therefore the setting of their kingdoms close to Mordor was not aimed as a direct threat to Sauron, as they thought he no longer existed, therefore it would be pointless to set up a state against a non-existent threat.  

Minas Ithil, was of course taken by Sauron, and Isildur fled south to Pelargir and then took ship to Arnor. Anárion was left in charge of Gondor, and he fended off Sauron's attack from Osgiliath.

Also, on the founding of Gondor:



> The name must therefore have meant ‘the hills of Arnen. It is now forgotten, but it can be seen from old records that Arnen was the older name of the greater part of the region later called Ithilien. This was given to the narrow land between the Anduin and the Ephel Dúath, primarily to the part between Cair Andros and the southern end of the bend of Anduin, but vaguely extended north to the Nindalf and south towards the Poros. For when Elendil took as his dwelling the North Kingdom, owing to his friendship with the Eldar, and committed the South Kingdom to his sons, they divided it so, as is said in ancient annals: "Isildur took as his own land all the region of Arnen; but Anárion took the land from Erui to Mount Mindolluin and thence westward to the North Wood", (later in Rohan called the Firien Wood), "but Gondor south of Ered Nimrais they held in common."


 _River and Beacon Hills of Gondor_ 



> In the South and East Mordor remained impenetrable; but though the extent of Gondor was thus impeded it was more populous and powerful than Arnor. The bounds of the ancient kingdom contained all those lands marked in maps of the end of the Third Age as Gondor, Anórien, Ithilien, South Ithilien, and Rohan (formerly called Calenardhon) west of the Entwash. On its extension at the height of its power, between the reigns of Hyarmendacil I and Rómendacil II (Third Age 1015 to 1366) see The Lord of the Rings Appendix A p.325


 _Of Dwarves and Men; HoME 12_ 

There was also a contingent of the 'faithful' who populated Gondor, before the Númenorean settlement. (Also note the ancestors of Imrazôr, who were said to be a party of the Faithful, who were related to Elendil.)



> He points out that Sindarin was not well-known to many of the settlers who gave the names, mariners, soldiers, and emigrants, though all aspired to have some knowledge of it. Gondor was certainly occupied from its beginning by the Faithful, men of the Elf-friend party and their followers; and these in revolt against the ‘Adunaic' Kings who forbade the use of the Elvish tongues gave all new names in the new realm in Sindarin, or adapted older names to the manner of Sindarin. They also renewed and encouraged the study of Quenya, in which important documents, titles, and formulas were composed. But mistakes were likely to be made.


 _River and Beacon Hills of Gondor_ 

There was also the Gwathuirim (Dunlendings, Dead Men of Dunharrow) and the Drúedain. Isildur made a oath with a tribe of Gwathuirim that they would aid him in the attack upon Sauron, but they refused to join in the war on Isildur's part.

The Númenóreans would have known that Mordor was the land of Sauron and that a lot of his servants (Who fled when the armament under Ar-Pharazôn came) may have been living on in Mordor.


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## Snaga (Dec 18, 2003)

We should not get the order of events wrong. Gondor was founded before the defeat of Mordor by the Last Alliance. It seemed that might be escaping some of us.

It seems to me that Gondor was founded out of a desire to build from what existed, i.e. the port of the Faithful at Pelagir. The proximity of Mordor may have taken second place to the need to work from an established base?


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## Akhil Aragorn (Mar 24, 2011)

Elendil and his sons established the numenorean kingdoms in exile i.e,Gondor and Arnor.Gondor was not constructed to defeat Sauron.But when Sauron returned, it was forced to attack him.However in the third age,Sauron started regaining his strength.Gondor was very strong and so it could keep up with saurons attacks.But when Arnor fell, its power started waning. Gondor was surrounded by enemies on all sides. So, by the time of the war of the ring, Gondor was rather weak.But still,it was a boon to the other kingdoms as it could at that time still ward off attacks.But it had no way to know when Sauron was attacking.And so beacons were constructed.So Gondor could always call for help through the beacons. So it is indeed very wise for gondor to be next to mordor.


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## Mithrandir-Olor (May 1, 2011)

I think this is ultimately a convenience of writing, Mordor being able to Reach the White City quickly rather then taking 5 year long War.


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## Fearanye (May 11, 2011)

Placing Gondor right beside Mordor was absolutely stupid. Although it might have played a role in the story, I just think it's dumb to put a city RIGHT BESIDE an evil place. It's like putting Antarctica on the sun: pointless.
[ignore this if this was a stupid idea]


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## Prince of Cats (May 11, 2011)

Well, consider how Melkor wrought things unknown and built up power away in Middle Earth while Valinor was idle. They wouldn't have been so idle if Melkor was still in Valinor and simply down the street


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## Sulimo (May 11, 2011)

I think what really must be considered is the extent of the old kingdom of Elendil. For, Gondor was, but a region of Elendil's larger kingdom that comprised Arnor, Rohan, Isenguard, and Gondor. Gondor was just a portion of a massive kingdom that held out longer then the Northern Kingdom. Furthermore, being annoyed with Gondor in relation to Mordor is the equivalent in the second age as being annoyed by Arnor in relation to Angmar.


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## Jon Lannister (Jun 30, 2011)

In the days of the power of Arnor and Gondor, it was certainly wisdom. Moreover, thinking that they were men and they couldn't predict how great Sauron's power really was and what his destructive power could do.


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## Annaheru (Jul 29, 2011)

Let us put Gondor in the proper context--

1st) The Exiles' arrival in ME: "Elendil was cast up by the waves in the land of Lindon, and he was befriended by Gil-galad. . . Isildur and Anarion were borne away southwards, and at the last they brought their ships up the Great River Anduin." (Sil, Of the Rings of Power)

From this we see that their landing determined a lot. Elendil's ships came ashore in claimed territory, so he couldn't settle where he landed-- he moved into the closest uninhabited territory. 
The Brother's on the other hand were swept to the south. If you continue reading the chapter quoted above you find out that a remnant of Numenorian Elf-friends still lived around the mouths of Anduin. This made it natural for the Exiles to land at this harbor, and Isildur' and Anarion's bloodline (distaff cousins of the Numenorian throne) made it natural for the locals to follow them.

2nd) GEOGRAPHY

(For this point it is important to see ME as it was when the Exiles landed, not what it looked like in the Third Age.) Take out a map of Middle Earth. 

Let's first look at plate three.

When Isildur landed the White Mountain's were inhabited by men, the Gwathuirim, branches of which also controlled Dunland. To guard against this potential threat the Dunadain established *Isengard *(N.W.) and *Helms Deep* (S.W.) to watch both the mountains and the Gap of Rohan.
*Dol Amroth* watched the western sea approaches to Gondor.

Switch to Plate 4

*Minas Anor* is strategically placed on the eastern tip of the White Mountains to cut off any assault on Osgiliath from the west.
*Minas Ithil* was placed so as to guard against any remaining threat in Mordor. It guarded the only western pass from Mordor.
*Pelargir* guarded the Mouth of Anduin and prevented any assault up the River.
Gondor maintained no northern stronghold. However, the lookout posts on *Amon Lhaw *and* Amon Hen* provided advanced warning of any approaching threat which could then be countered by forces from Minas Anor or Ithil.

*Osgiliath*, the _main city of Gondor_, was located (like most powerful capitals) on a major waterway with easy access to the sea. It was totally hedged in by the defenses mentioned above. Thus it was insulated against any sudden assault-- any enemy would have to assault either Minas Anor or Minas Ithil first, thus giving Gondor time to rally.

From this it becomes clear that the layout of Gondor was strategically sound.

Why then would a Kingdom which was so well laid out be pushed right up against Mordor?

Well, _where else was there?_ I've already mention the people inhabiting the land to the West/Northwest of Gondor. To the South/Southeast lay the land of *Harad* and the great harbor of *Umbar*. Even if the Exiles had been inclined to attack the Black Numenorians (and all they're actions in Numenor say that they weren't) and take their lands in the south it seems unlikely that they could have done so without a base from which to launch an assault.

To conclude this over-lengthy post, the Dunadain established their kingdom's in the only two uninhabited regions in the West of Middle Earth. The fact that those areas were "where Sauron battled Gilgalad" (Arnor) and "next to Mordor" really shouldn't be all that surprising.


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## Bucky (Aug 5, 2011)

Excellent post, but I never really gave it a thought to be quite honest. ;*)


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