# Istari and masons



## Thorondor_ (Jul 24, 2005)

[Taking into consideration the inner power and the knowledge of the istari, the "rise and fall" of some of them (and particulary the actions of Alatar and Pallando)] do you think that there is any parallel between the istari and the masons?


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## HLGStrider (Jul 25, 2005)

You mean the Free Masons, correct? 

Well, I truthfully only know the Masons from three somewhat to very unreliable sources. I know of how they were portrayed in War and Peace, with Pierre's experience with them. I know of how they were portrayed in National Treasure (snort). I know of the Shriner's club which I believe is associated with them and which takes up half of the local parades hereabouts with their little decorated golf carts.

However, the basics is they are a somewhat secret society that uses images I think maybe from the Old Testament and has some sort of belief in persuing truth. It requires a belief in a deity but it does not need to be specific to a religion (I only know this because I once got into a debate about whether certain American founding father's were atheists or not, and someone pointed out that they couldn't be because they were all Masons). Anyway, these beliefs lead them to be, nowadays, large donors for several charitable associations, mostly children's hospitals.

However, they are very much just men with certain spiritual beliefs who hold secret meetings and do good things. 

The Isitari are actually super-human creatures with powers, and they mask what they are, not what they believe. They do not pursue secret knowledge but rather use secret means to pursue a tangible goal, the defeat of Sauron. 

Not knowing much of Mason history, I really can't make the comparisons to the fallen Istari. . .though one of my favorite quotes involves these people, just for its quirkiness:

_He had always harboured the gravest mistrust of both Freudians and Freemasons, whom he regarded as being inextriccably linked . . . _
_--Alexander McCall Smith in the Finer Points of Sausage Dogs._


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## Thorondor_ (Jul 26, 2005)

The masons don't necessarily hide their beliefs; it is rather strange that many of the rites and knowledge of a secret society are rather well-known, there are some lodges who _publish _this stuff.

If we are to believe them, they will achieve any level of development, through their whatever spiritual (put the quotes if you want) knowledge / practice - so they could become somewhat similar to the istari (wild guess, I admit).


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## HLGStrider (Jul 26, 2005)

I think the difference is (among other things) that Istari start at a very high level of development and only one of them achieves more power, the others lose power, or are cast down completely.


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## Thorondor_ (Jul 26, 2005)

My desire for starting this thread was spawned by this remark by Tolkien:
"Middle-earth is simply an old fashioned word for the world we live in, as imagined and surrounded by the ocean...at a different stage of imagination."
Although the istari are a league of their own, they have "to learn much anew by slow experience"; I think that to a certain extent, they too are "fallen" (big quotes) from their previous maiar condition, just like humans are from their edenic condition. 
I would refrain, from comparing Gandalf to any mason; the rest of them, "suffer" comparison; I am not savvy on mason-matters, but I guess that they also think of themselves as "chosen" and that they too reffer to a "golden age", the same way the istari remember Valinor. And some of them are, apparently, fallen, while others (again, apparently) strive for good.


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## Shireman D (Jul 29, 2005)

I'm not a Mason ('handshaker' as they are known round my way from their particular greeting) although some of my family are. 

Most of the ones I know in this country would see themselves as christian in an undefined way. The one who lives over the road to me said "I'm not religious but I do believe in a Supreme Being": actually knowing what a charitable person he is and an influence for good in the community I would say he is much more Christian than he realises.

Unless you are a conspiracy theorist most people here would see them as slightly quaint chaps (even by Kentish standards) who want a club away from the wife that makes them feel good and lets them dress up a bit. The exceptions would be Roman Catholics and Evangelical Christians who have a collective fit of the vapours over the whole idea of Masonry (one of the numerous things they have in common but hate to own up to).

General info from this site: http://www.grandlodge-england.org


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## Thorondor_ (Jul 29, 2005)

I think that the higher you climb the masonic hierarchy, the more access you have to their mysticism/spirituality; some masons believe that their (practical) knowledge allows them to elevate their nature, making them some sort of, well, wizzards/inner-alchemists.


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## Hammersmith (Jul 30, 2005)

Thorondor_ said:


> The masons don't necessarily hide their beliefs; it is rather strange that many of the rites and knowledge of a secret society are rather well-known, there are some lodges who _publish _this stuff.


 
Ask a mason to tell you about Jahbulon (their god) and you'll see how much of their order remains fearsomely guarded and highly secretive.

As to the original question, no.


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## Shireman D (Jul 30, 2005)

Hammersmith said:


> Ask a mason to tell you about Jahbulon (their god) and you'll see how much of their order remains fearsomely guarded and highly secretive.
> 
> Masons in England have stopped using that name for God and now refer to God as God.


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## Haldatyaro (Jul 30, 2005)

Thorondor_ said:


> I would refrain, from comparing Gandalf to any mason; the rest of them, "suffer" comparison; I am not savvy on mason-matters, but I guess that they also think of themselves as "chosen" and that they too reffer to a "golden age", the same way the istari remember Valinor. And some of them are, apparently, fallen, while others (again, apparently) strive for good.



Interesting topic: For the record, I am a Freemason -- raised in Lafayette-Dupont Lodge #19 in Washington DC. I'm not a member of the Scottish Right or Royal Arch. Just my Blue Lodge.

We do not think of ourselves as "chosen", at least I don't. Besides, the Istari were limited to a select handful of beings whereas there are thousands (millions?) of Masons of all kinds. It represents (at least in the US) a good, representative swath of people, men and women.

I see the Istari as more parallel to Biblical prophets, the semi-divine, or earth-shakers, whether Gautama, Mohammed or even Hitler. Or perhaps Tolkien was thinking more along the lines of Catholic Saints, perhaps the apostles. Wasn't St. Francis noted for his love of nature and animals? That reminds me of Radagast.

If anything, I would argue that the parallel is between Freemasons and the Noldor. Note the similarities...

http://www.darkstar1.co.uk/royalarch1.jpg 

http://www.valinor.com.br/gallery/albums/userpics/jrrtolkien/normal_moria_gate.jpg


Question, since I'm new to this board: how do I post images in my message? All I'm getting is the hyperlink. Thanks.


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## Thorondor_ (Jul 30, 2005)

I found an interesting essay on the Internet on the etymology of the Jahbulon, and it was written by the grand high priest of Maryland. There are other essays on the mason websites concerning their spiritual knowledges; also, the master of my country's lodge actually published a book on masonic symbols and rites.
Comparing the istari with Hitler rather gives me the creeps, but I guess Saruman is what you had in mind (and he also gives me the creeps  ); however, I doubt that he had even for a moment the purpose of fighting the evil in the interest of the people. I think that Radagast loved his animals more than he cared for his mission, but I guess he did have a good heart and a special status, he just went astray.
I agree that a parallel between masons and noldor/saints/prophets is at least as interesting as comparing them to the istari.
[Haldatyaro, when you send a message, in the edit page, you have the additional options (on the lower part of the page), where you have a button labeled Manage attachments.]
If possible, would you give us some details about what actually does a speculative lodge? Here, or on a thread in Stuff & Bother, if you find it more suitable.


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## Hammersmith (Jul 30, 2005)

Shireman D said:


> Masons in England have stopped using that name for God and now refer to God as God.


No they haven't. English Masons have to this day repeatedly refused constantly to even mention the name in public, let alone divulge its secrets.


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## Shireman D (Aug 1, 2005)

Hammersmith said:


> No they haven't. English Masons have to this day repeatedly refused constantly to even mention the name in public, let alone divulge its secrets.


 
So this from their website cited above? -



> *Basic Statement*
> 
> Freemasonry is not a religion, nor is it a substitute for religion. It demands of its members a belief in a Supreme Being but provides no system of faith of its own.
> 
> ...


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## Arvedui (Aug 2, 2005)

Just for the record: like Haldatyaro, I am a Free Mason. (Hello there, Brother!) Not Scottish Rites as some seem to reffer to, but the Swedish Rites.
Anyway, I am not at liberty to tell much about goings-on at meetings, but when it comes to personal belief, I can tell that we have to be Christians to be allowed to be a member. 
And I can see very few comparisons between Masons and the Istari. But on the other hand, I have found a lot of elements in JRR Tolkien's writing that I recognize through my "work."
Hardly any surprise is it, as Tolkien was a devout Roman-Catholic.


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