# George R. R. Martin says LOTR has Plotholes



## Erestor Arcamen

While he's not wrong, I think it's laughable that he's taken seriously when he can't even finish his own series (and in my opinion, it's not very good).

Like some of these questions (especially about Orcs) are just plain weird...



> Martin said he keeps “wanting to argue with Professor Tolkien”, especially about the ending, which he summarised as: “And Aragorn ruled wisely and well for 100 years or something.”
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> “That’s easy to write that sentence,” Martin said. “But I want to know: what was his tax policy?
> “What did he do when famine struck the land? And what did he do when all those Orcs...? [There were] a lot of Orcs leftover.
> “They weren’t all killed, They ran away into the mountains. ... Did Aragorn carry out a policy of systematic Orc genocide? ... Or was there Orc rehabilitation going on?”
> 
> *Martin also wondered whether Orcs and Elves were eventually able to marry*, while acknowledging that Tolkien was “more interested in the mythological aspect” than these specific questions.











George RR Martin highlights 'plot holes' in Lord of the Rings


Author wants to know more about Aragorn's rule




www.independent.co.uk


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## Squint-eyed Southerner

They already had an "argument". Guess who won?


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## CirdanLinweilin

Erestor Arcamen said:


> While he's not wrong, I think it's laughable that he's taken seriously when he can't even finish his own series (and in my opinion, it's not very good).
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> Like some of these questions (especially about Orcs) are just plain weird...
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> George RR Martin highlights 'plot holes' in Lord of the Rings
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> Author wants to know more about Aragorn's rule
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> www.independent.co.uk


Aragorn and Eomer literally led mop-up wars.


See, no plot-hole.


CL


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## Gothmog

Erestor Arcamen said:


> While he's not wrong, I think it's laughable that he's taken seriously when he can't even finish his own series (and in my opinion, it's not very good).
> 
> Like some of these questions (especially about Orcs) are just plain weird...


Since Martin is, it would seem from what little I have read and seen, concerned mostly with sex and violence while Tolkien was concerned with "Good v Evil" and Growth (mainly of the Hobbits) it is not surprising that he would find "plot holes" in any book that does not plumb the same depths as his. Personally, I tried reading the first of his books on the recommendation of a friend. I gave up just a few pages in.


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## Lych92

George R R Martin is just jealous he will never be anyone bigger than Tolkien. Must have sucked having people always shoving "you come close but will never be and never will be better than Tolkien" every time. Everyone knows Tolkien isn't perfect. But after having read ASOIAF there are so much SJW and PC contents it gets very fake and superficial to read. And no, the "plot twists and surprises" don't really surprise as many said and made out to be. Between over-hyped and over-worshipped authors like Tolkien and Martin, the latter would have been the bigger sell out as I see nothing special about his works.


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## Erestor Arcamen

Gothmog said:


> Since Martin is, it would seem from what little I have read and seen, concerned mostly with sex and violence while Tolkien was concerned with "Good v Evil" and Growth (mainly of the Hobbits) it is not surprising that he would find "plot holes" in any book that does not plumb the same depths as his. Personally, I tried reading the first of his books on the recommendation of a friend. I gave up just a few pages in.



I read the first three books. The first one was just OK, the second and third are kind of a blur to me, I don't really remember much of anything from them. But yes, they are full of sex more than anything. South Park had it right when they had that episode on him being obsessed with male genitalia. His books have so many characters (more than The Silmarillion) that it's impossible to keep track of who's who and who's doing what. I started the fourth book at one point but just couldn't get through it. I own the fifth book but have never attempted since I couldn't get through the 4th. I let the HBO series (which I really enjoyed, even the last season) finish it for me. Even if he did release the Winds of Winter (waiting 8 years and counting now) I wouldn't bother reading it. I read the plots on Wikipedia and ASOIAF-related wikis because they're easier to follow than his writing.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner

And then there's the TV series. Hmm. . . I wonder how the pitch meeting for that went?

Oh, yeah. . .


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## Olorgando

OK, I'm not familiar with either Martin's books or the "Game of Thrones" series they spawned. But the comments above irresistibly draw me to Tom Shippey’s masterful skewering of one negative critic of JRRT’s, Philip Toynbee. The latter had written a piece in the Observer, defining the “Good Writer”:

“… is a private and lonely creature who takes no heed of his public.”, “… creates an artifact which satisfies him …”, “… can do no other.”, When his work appears it will be “… shocking and amazing … unexpected by the public mind. It is for the public to adjust.” (But apparently not so for critics.).

Does any writer come to mind with this description???

But I’ve saved what I consider the punch line, from earlier on in the quotes:
“He can write about anything and make it relevant, even _*‘incestuous dukes in Tierra del Fuego’*_.”
Oh yes, give us more of that incest and other juicy stuff!!! **drool** (Of course the Sil, with Túrin and Nienor Niniel, had not been published yet). Which apparently Martin has now provided?


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## Alcuin

Lych92 said:


> George R R Martin is just jealous he will never be anyone bigger than Tolkien. Must have sucked having people always shoving "you come close but will never be and never will be better than Tolkien" every time. Everyone knows Tolkien isn't perfect. But after having read ASOIAF there are so much SJW and PC contents it gets very fake and superficial to read. And no, the "plot twists and surprises" don't really surprise as many said and made out to be. Between over-hyped and over-worshipped authors like Tolkien and Martin, the latter would have been the bigger sell out as I see nothing special about his works.


Wholeheartedly agreed. Martin’s comments seem motivated by more than jealousy and a desire to sell more books. He’s no doubt an excellent writer, but nowhere near the equal of Tolkien, with whose worldview Martin appears to violently disagree. It looks as if this combination of jealousy, greed, and especially his differing outlook on life inform his denunciations of Tolkien. 

Michael Moorcock, author of the Elric of Melniboné stories, is another whose worldview conflicts with Tolkien’s. He has also launched diatribes against Tolkien’s work, apparently for similar reasons.


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## Erestor Arcamen

Yeah, speaking of jealousy, I saw an article a while ago where some nobody author complained that Robert Jordan Tolkien's books take up too much space in Barnes and Noble...meanwhile she's written 5 novels....I can't count how many Robert Jordan wrote but according to the article it's 29.


> Lee would write on Twitter, “This is what modern fantasy writers are up against. In my local B&N, most authors are lucky to find a copy of their book, super lucky if its face out. There are 3.5 shelves for Tolkien. 1.5 for Jordan. Here’s who we compete against for shelf space: not each other, but dead guys.”


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## Olorgando

Funny, she doesn't mention Harry Potter. I would have thought those books would also be shelf hogs.
Well, there is one fact of life and bookstore economy which no sane bookseller would violate:
What sells, gets shelf space. And some books keep selling (high up on the so-called backlist) after 42, or 64, or 82 years (Is Harry Potter not aging well?)
That's like playwrights complaining that this guy from Stratford-upon-Avon keeps hogging shelf space even over 400 years after his death. 🤨


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## CirdanLinweilin

Welllll, when *MY High Fantasy *_rolls around you be knowing I will praise Tolkien, my Fellow Catholic fantasy writer._
Seriously, I'd be nowhere as a writer without JRR, Not only as a writer, but a person, 

I don't want to be the next Tolkien or Paolini as people who want to tell me, I want to be R.C. Black.



I don't care much for Martin, I can smell the resentment like Mordor reek.


Anyway, be on the lookout for my High Fantasy!



C:


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## Olorgando

It's a matter of taste (which includes tastelessness).
Here's another quote from Tom Shippey's 2000 book "Author of the Century" to go with the one on Philip Toynbee above.
This one is by Edmund Wilson, and he had published a book pretty exactly 25 years before his snotty review of LoTR, shooting the review in the foot:

"... it is well to remember the mysteriousness of the states with which we respond to the stimulus of works of literature and the primarily suggestive character of the language in which these works are written, on any occasion when we may be tempted to characterize as 'nonsense', *'balderdash'* or 'gibberish' some new and outlandish-looking piece of writing to which we do not happen to respond. If other persons say they do respond, and derive from doing so pleasure or profit, we must take them at their word."

Works in all directions, (it should be) needless to say.

Wilson actually managed to shoot himself in the other foot, too, in a manner of speaking.
In his dismissal of LoTR in 1956, one of the snorts he issued was that he thought the taste for things like LoTR was specifically British.
Around 10 years later, Ace books initiated a development with their pirate edition that sent the American market into exponential growth, aka it exploded.

But advancing age *can* lead to intransigence and inflexibility in thinking, and when you start off as a pompous ass ...
I wonder if Wilson ever noticed that he was virtually walking around with two "holey" feet? 😄


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## Alcuin

“The _Lord of the Rings_ has been read by many people since it finally appeared in print; and I should like to say something here with reference to the many opinions or guesses that I have received or have read concerning the motives and meaning of the tale. The prime motive was the desire of a tale-teller to try his hand at a really long story that would hold the attention of readers, amuse them, delight them, and at times maybe excite them or deeply move them. As a guide I had only my own feelings for what is appealing or moving, and for many the guide was inevitably often at fault. Some who have read the book, or at any rate have reviewed it, have found it boring, absurd, or contemptible; and I have no cause to complain, since I have similar opinions of their works, or of the kinds of writing that they evidently prefer. But even from the points of view of many who have enjoyed my story there is much that fails to please. It is perhaps not possible in a long tale to please everybody at all points, nor to displease everybody at the same points; for I find from the letters that I have received that the passages or chapters that are to some a blemish are all by others specially approved. The most critical reader of all, myself, now finds many defects, minor and major, but being fortunately under no obligation either to review the book or to write it again, he will pass over these in silence, except one that has been noted by others: the book is too short.”
– JRR Tolkien, _Fellowship of the Ring_, “Foreword”​


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## Squint-eyed Southerner

Amen on that last bit!


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## Elthir

I've heard Martin praise Tolkien before, and if memory serves, acknowledge that Tolkien was writing a different animal.

My take on the above: this seems to me to be about "getting some laughs" by way of comparing styles and interests. Granted, GRRM is simplifying (or forgetting) what's actually in the books, as already pointed out, and doesn't seem like he's read (or remembered) some of the posthumously published works (about Orcs, for instance), but still, I think the popularity of Tolkien allows him to draw distinctions in these kinds of interviews. 

As for jealousy: who knows, but for myself, I wouldn't go there based on this (especially this alone). Due to the HBO version, I would guess that GRRM is pretty well known in the world (no doubt Tolkien is too), and far richer that Tolkien ever was; but again, I think despite the comparisons other folk make, Martin is aware that Tolkien, as JRRT himself put it, was not writing a novel but a _"heroic romance"_.

Also "Hold the Door" is English, so that means? 💫


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## Squint-eyed Southerner

Maybe it's just an example of Harold Bloom's pet theory, the "anxiety of influence".

Or, as I call it, "literary Darwinism".


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## Olorgando

Galin said:


> Also "Hold the Door" is English, so that means? 💫


I'm afraid I'd have to guess wildly. But in the first "Shrek" movie, Shrek drops Donkey with the comment "Hold the phone" (as anachronistic in that animated film's setting as much of Bilbo's stuff was in The Hobbit), meaning something like "hang on, I'll be right back". This must have been after Princess Fiona, in her daylight human guise, had just mopped the forest with one Robin 'Ood, sporting a dreadful French accent, and his ( now no longer) merry men.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner

I should have said I was referring to GRRM's attitude, not Hodor.

And that, BTW, is dissapointing in itself. When I read the first 2-3 books (can't remember) I was thinking he was making an allusion to "hodos" -- "the way" in classical Greek, and was planning some big reveal. Apparently not.


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## ArwenStar

Lych92 said:


> George R R Martin is just jealous he will never be anyone bigger than Tolkien. Must have sucked having people always shoving "you come close but will never be and never will be better than Tolkien" every time.





Alcuin said:


> Wholeheartedly agreed. Martin’s comments seem motivated by more than jealousy and a desire to sell more books.


Surely everyone knows tolkien’s books are the best   But that Martin guy really is an idiot


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## Elthir

Well, I'll continue my unpopular opinion by adding (since it's been raised), that I wish Tolkien hadn't revised his original Foreword.

And especially a section posted here, I have come to think, is beneath the man. Sure it's well written, but basically it's a shot at Tolkien's critics; and as far as I remember, the revised Foreword is the only _external__*_ piece that Tolkien himself ever published, which undermines the very "game" he is so wonderfully engaged in with the First Edition Foreword, and elsewhere.

*in that it hails from Tolkien the writer, instead of Tolkien the translator.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner

IIRC, he said he regretted the original Foreword as "combining real with feigned history" -- or words to that effect; I have neither version with me.


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## Elthir

_"This Foreword I should wish very much in any case to cancel. Confusing (as it does) real personal matters with the "machinery" of the Tale is a serious mistake."_ JRRT

I can't agree  

And in any case, Tolkien as Translator remains outside of the Foreword, in his own published work.


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## Lych92

Alcuin said:


> Wholeheartedly agreed. Martin’s comments seem motivated by more than jealousy and a desire to sell more books. He’s no doubt an excellent writer, but nowhere near the equal of Tolkien, with whose worldview Martin appears to violently disagree. It looks as if this combination of jealousy, greed, and especially his differing outlook on life inform his denunciations of Tolkien.
> 
> Michael Moorcock, author of the Elric of Melniboné stories, is another whose worldview conflicts with Tolkien’s. He has also launched diatribes against Tolkien’s work, apparently for similar reasons.



I agree. Between incomplete works coming from Martin and Tolkien, the latter at least do it better!


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## Olorgando

Fantasy literature (more widely, The Fantastic, which includes science fiction, horror - Frank and Drac, fables and whatnot) has developed in a similar fashion as pop / rock music.
I have an interesting book calling itself a "picture book", which is just a huge collection of interesting and / or trivial information shown visually.
It's the German translation of a 2009 book by David McCandless, original title "Information is beautiful".
It has a two-page spread detailing (or trying to) developments from the 1960s to the 2000s in pop / rock, with cross influences.
Talk about a spaghetti plate!!! I have never even *heard* of at least 90% of the styles mentioned, and have no idea about what some of the remaining 10% sound like.
But they all have their following, apparently. Some may have petered out, or evolved. And with revivals cropping up at intervals ...
So too do the various variants of Fantasy / The Fantastic have their following. Or other genres which make me roll my eyes where some authors have had some massive sales.
Some German "literati" types might, for example, turn up their noses at some guy from Stratford-upon-Avon who never managed to write a "Faust" and was basically just a playwright who dabbled a bit in poetry. And a lot of what he wrote he stole from Italian authors, and don't get me started on the accuracy of his historical stuff.
Let the free-for-all rumble begin!


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## CirdanLinweilin

Olorgando said:


> Fantasy literature (more widely, The Fantastic, which includes science fiction, horror - Frank and Drac, fables and whatnot) has developed in a similar fashion as pop / rock music.
> I have an interesting book calling itself a "picture book", which is just a huge collection of interesting and / or trivial information shown visually.
> It's the German translation of a 2009 book by David McCandless, original title "Information is beautiful".
> It has a two-page spread detailing (or trying to) developments from the 1960s to the 2000s in pop / rock, with cross influences.
> Talk about a spaghetti plate!!! I have never even *heard* of at least 90% of the styles mentioned, and have no idea about what some of the remaining 10% sound like.
> But they all have their following, apparently. Some may have petered out, or evolved. And with revivals cropping up at intervals ...
> So too do the various variants of Fantasy / The Fantastic have their following. Or other genres which make me roll my eyes where some authors have had some massive sales.
> Some German "literati" types might, for example, turn up their noses at some guy from Stratford-upon-Avon who never managed to write a "Faust" and was basically just a playwright who dabbled a bit in poetry. And a lot of what he wrote he stole from Italian authors, and don't get me started on the accuracy of his historical stuff.
> Let the free-for-all rumble begin!


Hopefully, ahaha, you'll like my High Fantasy!





CL


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## Halasían

CirdanLinweilin said:


> Aragorn and Eomer literally led mop-up wars.
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> See, no plot-hole.
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> 
> CL



Yes, and my wife and I have written a whole fanfic novel based on these post-War of the Ring mop-up wars. There were campaigns in Harad, Khand, and Rhun.

For all you who were able to actually _read_ any of GRR Martin's books, hats off to you. I did try and read Game of Thrones a few times, making it halfway once before putting it down to never pick up again. I just couldn't get the feel of it. I for one was glad a TV series was made from it as it was somewhat entertaining. I sure as hell wasn't ever going to try and read his books again.


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## CirdanLinweilin

Halasían said:


> Yes, and my wife and I have written a whole fanfic novel based on these post-War of the Ring mop-up wars. There were campaigns in Harad, Khand, and Rhun.
> 
> For all you who were able to actually _read_ any of GRR Martin's books, hats off to you. I did try and read Game of Thrones a few times, making it halfway once before putting it down to never pick up again. I just couldn't get the feel of it. I for one was glad a TV series was made from it as it was somewhat entertaining. I sure as hell wasn't ever going to try and read his books again.


I'm not going to even try - It's not my on my fantasy wavelength.


CL


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## ArwenStar

I have one of his (got it before I read LoTR) and when I got it sounded great, but now I can’t even pick it up because it is emitting bad, anti-Tolkien vibes. Maybe I’ll get some gloves and throw it in a bin. And it takes up too much space on my overfull bookshelves.


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