# Why doesn't Gandalf use more magic?



## Anarchist (May 2, 2002)

The thread about why didn't Gandalf use his magic against the orcs of Moria reminded me a question I was planning to place here. What kind of magic could wizards use? Could they just cast lightnings and fireballs or could they raise things with their mind. I only remember Gandalf using magic in the Hobbit when the trolls attacked him and casted a lightning to kill them and in the battle of Minas Tirith. Your opinions?


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## Elias (May 2, 2002)

Good question!
I think that if they can do something bigger they need time and in the battle there's not much time. But that's my opinion on this, I would really like to know the truth so if some expert could tell me (us) that.


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## Gnashar_the_orc (May 2, 2002)

Well I suppose Gandalf used some sort of enchantment spell on the trolls... He also killed a few goblins in the Misty Mountains with firebolts I believe... I could be wrong but didn't Saruman also use some sort of powerful magic to stop the Fellowship from passing over the Misty Mountains; forcing them to go to the mines of Moria?


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## Zale (May 3, 2002)

I think Gandalf was just reluctant to use his magic in anything but the direst need. Take for example Moria. If he hadn't stopped the Balrog, the rest of the Company would have been finished without question (don't bother argueing, Aragorn wouldn't even have scratched it). Even then he didn't do enought to save himself even though he probably could have done so.
If you think about it, it has to be a question of him not wanting to use magic, instead of not being able to. Saruman didn't seem to have a problem doing however much magic he wanted to. Sauron (of the same order of being as the Istari) is perhaps the best example; he used more magic than everyone else put together. Remember the 'great blackness' in RotK? That wasn't natural.


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## Lord Aragorn (May 6, 2002)

Well, the Istari were forbidden to use the full extent of their power in the fight against Sauron. They were only supposed to kinda guide others in the fight. I think he simply obeyed this command, and unlike Saruman, tried to carry out his mission as best he could. Using any more "magic" than neccesary would not conform to what they were supposed to do. Wizard conjures up D&D type images of a spell-slinging fireball, lightning-bolt machine, this type of generalization does not really apply to the wizards of Tolkien's world.


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## Gandalf White (May 7, 2002)

Wait a minute!
Gandalf didnt use any spells on the trolls in The Hobbit. He just changed his voice and kept them talking till the sun came out. That's what turned them to stone. Sheesh 

(Just nit-picking; don't pay me any attention)


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## Wonko The Sane (May 7, 2002)

The question still remains:
"Why didn't he use magic in Moria?"


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## Lantarion (May 7, 2002)

Disregarding the ludicrous (but funny) break-dancing episode at Orthanc in the movie, I think the Istari could:

Manipulate fire and water
Use their voice effectively (although they weren't really allowed to...)
Change physical form
And something else.


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## Wonko The Sane (May 7, 2002)

What is this mysterious "something else"?

(Look, Beorn has almost 1000 posts...)


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## Beorn (May 7, 2002)

Ponti! Could you please check your PMs? Hehe...There's a message waiting, 'bout this thread...


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## Gandalf White (May 7, 2002)

Could someone explain exactly what you mean when you say Gandalf didn't use magic in Moria. Where exactly are you talking about?


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## Lantarion (May 8, 2002)

Sorry grasshoppah. I'll check it out.


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## Legolam (May 8, 2002)

In response to Gnasher - I don't think Saruman stopped the Fellowship going over Caradhras. That was just the mountain being so difficult (kinda like K2!)

Gandalf seemed to be restricted to fire and stuff (although correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't got the best of memories) and when he did use his powers, they seemed to signal to all the bad guys where he was. Perhaps he didn't want people to know that they were down the mines. Plus, as Zale says, maybe they weren't strictly allowed to overpower their fellow beings with magic (it being unfair and all!).

Ooooh, a thought has just come to me. When in the mines, Gandalf says at one point "Maybe we can risk a little light" and makes a fireball or something of the sort. Could that have drawn the enemies of the Fellowship? Just an idle thought.


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## Wonko The Sane (May 8, 2002)

I DO believe that Saruman was trying to control the weather to prevent the Fellowship from crossing the mountain.

It eased up as soon as they were off the mountain.

Saruman wanted to send them into Moria. He wanted them to face the fell things he knew dwelt there.

I'm almost positive the storm was induced and not just coincidence.


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## Legolam (May 8, 2002)

That's the way mountains are though. The weather changes instantaneously and I'm sure someone in the fellowship says something about Caradhras not wanting them to cross.

Hold on, I'm going to make a new thread about this in the LOTR forum.


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## Wonko The Sane (May 8, 2002)

Someone in the fellowship does say that the mountain doesn't want them to cross.
But they also say the mountain's will was influenced and changed by magic.


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## Uminya (May 8, 2002)

I certainly don't think Saruman had the power to change the weather like that. Sauron, maybe, but not Saruman himself (maybe Sauron could have channeled power through Saruman...)

I think it is possible that the mountain itself had evilness to it and could itself change the weather...but why didn't it play this dirty trick on all of the beings who crossed the pass?

Besides that, Gimli makes the suggestion that the Dark Lord's arm would indeed have to be long to bring the snows of the north that far south, and Gandalf confirms, "His arm has grown long."


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## SpencerC18 (May 10, 2002)

Basically it goes like this(I think):

-Gandalf uses primarily fire magic

-Saruman uses primarily mind magic (he could get people to side with him with his voice) and creative magic like his ring and such

-Radagast used primarily nature magic (like summoning animals and such)


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## Anarchist (May 11, 2002)

In the end of LOTR, in the appendices I think and in the Silmarillion, it is stated that Gandalf possesed the Ring of Fire. That could explain his abilities with fire and his fears not to use the fire ring in Moria (perhaps he feared that Sauron would find out that Gandalf possesed the ring and try to take it). There are two parts though where Gandalf casts lightning. The first is in The Hobbit, when the trolls try to take him and the second is in the battle of Minas Tirith, when he goes to rescue Faramir (I think he casted a lightning twice in till the end of that battle). 
After the rescue of Faramir, Pippin noticed Gandalf's eyes burning. Perhaps that was a side effect of usimg magic. Pipping think that the burning in Gandal's eyes was exhausted. Perhaps the magic they could use was limited. After all, he casted magic that powerful that he drew the Nazgul away.

Another part where it is not clearly stated that Gandalf used magic is when the hobbits and Aragorn travel to Rivenndel, they find ashes on a hill, while some time before they noticed grat lights in the sky. I think is was Gandalf again over there.

About the magic in the movie, where Saruman and Gandalf struggle, that part was great but I guess it was all bull****.


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## Eldanor (May 12, 2002)

About the moments in which Gandalf uses magig: don't forget the great fight with the Balrog in that tower of the mountain... he probably had to use very powerful spells and magic (remember the ice falling fom the sky and all, I really want to see it on the movies). And he was on the hill of Amon Sûl and used magic against the ring wraiths, probably some lightings and that stuff...

I play (not very often) the LoTR role game, and there the magic has a specific system: you have 'lists' of spells (like List of Fire, List of Water...) and tou have a number of Power Points used to execute the spells, and that points recharge with the time... but if you do a lot of spells in one day you will run out of PP, and have to sleep for recharge quickly... Maybe Gandalf used magic like that.

And I think he didn't use more power against the balrog in the bridge of Moria because he was very tired... (I think he says that in the book)

In the role game you can also have the weapons and objects like the Ring of Fire, which (I think, I don't remember very well) increases your PP and gives you a bonification in fire spells, or something...


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## Wonko The Sane (May 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Anarchist _
> *In the end of LOTR, in the appendices I think and in the Silmarillion, it is stated that Gandalf possesed the Ring of Fire. That could explain his abilities with fire and his fears not to use the fire ring in Moria (perhaps he feared that Sauron would find out that Gandalf possesed the ring and try to take it). There are two parts though where Gandalf casts lightning. The first is in The Hobbit, when the trolls try to take him and the second is in the battle of Minas Tirith, when he goes to rescue Faramir (I think he casted a lightning twice in till the end of that battle).
> After the rescue of Faramir, Pippin noticed Gandalf's eyes burning. Perhaps that was a side effect of usimg magic. Pipping think that the burning in Gandal's eyes was exhausted. Perhaps the magic they could use was limited. After all, he casted magic that powerful that he drew the Nazgul away.
> 
> ...



Alright...just thought I'd let you know that the past tense of "cast" is "cast"...not "casted"..."casted" is not a word.

Sorry. Pet peeve...I had to say something.
I'll ignore the spelling though...except this: "great"...not "grat"...ok...done.


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## Tarien (May 19, 2002)

Also, a further nitpick. 

Ice did not fall from the sky in Khazad-Dum. There was no sky! The Valaraukar took out a big part of the wall, and it caused parts of the ceiling to collapse!

If you don't understand a thing I just said, PM me.


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## SarumansTreason (May 21, 2002)

For those of you questioning wether or not Saruman controlled the weather on the first mountain, Gandalf himself says somthing to the likes of "There are things tha hate things on four legs but are not in league with Sauron." So, I believe the mountain spirit thingy was stopping their passage.


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## Wonko The Sane (May 22, 2002)

That evidence is not conclusive.


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## Anarchist (May 23, 2002)

Wonko, thanks for the English lessons (I knew that!! ). 
In Moria, the thing with the bridge needed a lot of magic power.
Eldanor, can you inform me about the LOTR RPG?


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## Wonko The Sane (May 23, 2002)

Your welcome, AntiChrist.


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