# Calculating the Great Eagles' Power



## Thorin (Apr 26, 2008)

Part of me was always wondering about the eagles taking out the nazgul in RoTK. Would such creatures really have had a chance against the evil nastiness of the nazgul mounts?

Well...The answer is a definite yes after the presentation I saw.

We had a wildlife preservation team come in to speak to my students about falcons and eagles. They brought in three birds, a peregrin falcon, a female bald eagle and a deer hunting eagle (the eagle they used in wars).

The eagle has to be the BEST predator and killing machine ratio wise than any other predator.

Here were some of the stats about them:

1) Weighs about 10 pounds with a wing span about 6-7 feet and stands about 3-4 feet tall
2) Can see in panoramic perspective and could see a hanky being waved up to 2km.
3) Can fly up to speeds of 320 km/h
4) Has a million cones in it's eyes (as opposed to the human with about 
100 000)
5) Has been known to take down wolves, deer, coyotes and even humans

Now....this made me begin to think about the great eagles of Middle Earth.

Wouldn't it be cool if somebody mathematically and using physics increased the ratio to determine the abilities and strength of the great eagles?

Anybody want to take this on or give speculation?


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## HLGStrider (Apr 26, 2008)

I don't have the ability to figure it out, but I can guess I wouldn't want to be standing under one that mistakes me for a salmon.


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## YayGollum (Apr 26, 2008)

Since that Tolkien guy never really helps me out with a decent picture of how big the things were, I figured that I would go with how much they could carry. The heaviest thing (as far as I can remember) is Dori, the evil thief Bilbo Baggins, and whatever they happened to be carrying. How much would all of that weigh, and how much can the average eagle carry? So at least I could write that the average giant eagle was most probably at least so <-----------> large, although we wouldn't know what their limit would be.


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## Thorin (Apr 26, 2008)

Well, let's speculate.

Let's assume that in carrying Sam and Frodo in their claws out of Mordor, that Sam and Frodo would be the equivalent of a mouse to a regular eagle.

Any mathematicians out there?


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## YayGollum (Apr 26, 2008)

Hm. I just noticed ---> Why is this in the The Glittering Caves section? Isn't it more like Hall Of Fire material? Well, I guess that figuring this stuff out could be seen as creative to the more left-brained sorts.  Anyways, if we're looking at two malnourished as well as nasssty hobbitses as the average mouse to the average eagle, that seems to make the average giant eagle around fifteen feet tall?


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## HLGStrider (Apr 26, 2008)

I agreed with YayG and I'm meddlesome, so I moved the thread . . .


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## Confusticated (Apr 27, 2008)

This probably isn't as specific or scientific as you are looking for but right off hand if a larger end eagle of 14 lbs can carry a 4 pound load (They can, I looked it up) then if Gandalf was 200 lbs, Gwaihir's wingspan might have been around 350 feet and his weight 700 lbs.

14lbs divided by 4lbs = 3.5

200lb Gandalf times 3.5 = 700 pound eagle.

700 pound eagle is 50 times the weight of a bald eagle. If wing span were the same, it would be 350 feet across.

I went with a larger sized bald eagle since I used the big-wig Gwaihir. Even a slight tweaking of the numbers, to base them on a 10 pound bald eagle instead of 14, would give a remarkable change, but still over a 500 pound eagle.

This is just size and weight. Don't know how to figure vision and speed, since I think these aren't necessarily going to increase in the same proportion with how much an eagle can carry like the size probably would. 

I'm thinking that a gigantic eagle might not necessarily fly 50 times as fast as a bald eagle, the aerodynamics would change. I suspect you're looking for someone to tell you how it would change, but that person is not me. What if analysis shows that such a large flying eagle should not be possible..


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## YayGollum (Apr 27, 2008)

Eh. I wouldn't worry about that. I can just point out that they're actually creepily impossible as well as magic-filled spirit beasties. They could look like squids and fly, according to Tolkien's rules, as long as they had squid-like as well as flighty characteristics. Also, you estimate the evil torturer Gandalf weighing two hundred pounds?  Anyways, okay, I was thinking of a smaller eagle, and I had no idea as to how much the things could carry. Your information makes the giant eagles seem a lot more gigantic. How's about the vulture things carrying Nazgul, then? I'd figure a barely there Nazgul weighs a lot less than the evil torturer Gandalf, though.


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 27, 2008)

Nóm said:


> Gwaihir's wingspan might have been around 350 feet and his weight 700 lbs.



350 feet...let's see...106,68 metres?? Good god! 

You could build a nice little villa on top of that thing, swimming pool and garden included. 

I don't think the giant eagles of M-e were anywhere nearly as large as that, even the largest among them. Maybe a 100 feet (30.48 m) for Thorondor, 80-90 feet (24.384 m - 27.432 m) for Gwaihir, and maybe 50-70 feet (15.24 m -21.336 m) for "regular" giant eagles. And those are all _tops_ in my estimation (the mean value should be smaller), but even so they seem enormous enough to me to be rightly called giant eagles.

Another thing, our guesses should probably not be _too_ rooted in reality, after all the eagles of Middle-earth had the ability to speak, and perhaps other "magical" powers derived from their shady, but supposedly Maiaric, origins. Thus, they could probably carry much more than can be surmised by comparing them to the wing span/strength to carry ratio of real life eagles.



Thorin said:


> Part of me was always wondering about the eagles taking out the nazgul in RoTK. Would such creatures really have had a chance against the evil nastiness of the nazgul mounts?



I'm sure the eagles were much faster and agile than the lizard-like winged mounts of the Nazgul. 



> The eagle has to be the BEST predator and killing machine ratio wise than any other predator.



I agree.



> 5) Has been known to take down wolves, deer, coyotes and even humans



I assume we're talking about babies/younglings of all these?


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## Thorin (Apr 27, 2008)

Nom, thanks for your calculations. 350 ft does seem like an awfully big wing span but the rest seems feasible. 

I put this in the Glittering Caves forum because it something about being creative. Let me quote.."To let your imagination take flight.."

Good god people if that doesn't fit this topic what does??



Ithrynluin said:


> I assume we're talking about babies/younglings of all these?


Nope, the full boar. However, perhaps I'm exaggerating with the human part. Think about it...flying at a diving speed of 320 km? You could shake an elephant at the speed.

I don't know about the sight thing...an animal that size has to have way more cones than the average eagle. I would say that the big birds could see for at least 10 miles! Of course I'm merely pulling that number out of a hat.


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 27, 2008)

> Nope, the full boar. However, perhaps I'm exaggerating with the human part. Think about it...flying at a diving speed of 320 km? You could shake an elephant at the speed.



Sorry, just don't buy that. I think you got a little too caught up in the excitement of learning about birds of prey and seeing them with your own eyes. They are interesting, to be sure. 

As far as I know, only the smaller birds of prey can achieve high speeds (the fastest being the Peregrine Falcon), in order to catch fast birds in flight or maybe a quick rodent on the ground. I'd like to see a bird that small tackle a grown wolf, unless it was making a suicide attempt.

As for the larger birds of prey, those that can and do prey on mammals, I think the laws of physics/aerodynamics/whatchamacallit prevent them from reaching high-octane speeds, let alone the 320 km/h you mention. I don't think they have need for such speeds, because their prey is different in the first place. However, I highly doubt they would dare to attack a grown carnivore; Maybe a grown sheep, if there was no more appropriate prey in the vicinity, but certainly not a wolf, coyote or a human being.

But hey, these are just my two cents, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

EDIT: This reminds me of a documentary I once watched, it might have been _The Life of Birds_ by the venerable Sir David Attenborough, in which they showed a now extinct and very large eagle, reconstructing how it must have swooped down upon a huge ostrich/emu-like flightless bird substantially bigger than itself. I thought it might be interesting for the subject at hand, so I dug up the following: The Largest Eagle Ever


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## Thorin (Apr 27, 2008)

Ithrynluin said:


> As far as I know, only the smaller birds of prey can achieve high speeds (the fastest being the Peregrine Falcon), in order to catch fast birds in flight or maybe a quick rodent on the ground. I'd like to see a bird that small tackle a grown wolf, unless it was making a suicide attempt....However, I highly doubt they would dare to attack a grown carnivore; Maybe a grown sheep, if there was no more appropriate prey in the vicinity, but certainly not a wolf, coyote or a human being.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tctoA9oCRug

Consider the ease with which this deer hunter took down this fawn at a minimal speed and not even with a dive. Are you saying that it cannot hit a coyote or wolf?

This freeze frame montage shows a bald eagle that took down a fox and a wolf.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjPtLjd3BF0&feature=related



Ithrynluin said:


> As for the larger birds of prey, those that can and do prey on mammals, I think the laws of
> physics/aerodynamics/whatchamacallit prevent them from reaching high-octane speeds, let alone the 320 km/h you mention.



Hmm...Ithy, your skepticism is 'ruffling my feathers'


> "A bald eagle can reach a speed of up to 200 miles per hour (322 kilometers per hour) when diving through the air to grab a meal."
> 
> stats from
> http://www.sandiegozoo.org/animalbytes/t-bald_eagle.html



For the record, I am merely going by the man who has raised and healed eagles for over 30 years told me. 



Ithrynluin said:


> But hey, these are just my two cents, someone correct me if I'm wrong.



I just did...though I shouldn't have had to...Doesn't a dwarf know best?


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## Confusticated (Apr 27, 2008)

I was thinking about this again as I went to sleep last night. If the eagle is 700lbs then 350 is too long of a span. That would come out to 2 lbs per foot of length! A proportion that is within reason for a bald eagle, but surely a giant eagle would carry more weight per length. I hope to figure out something better later, but in the mean time I thought I would post to say that I did not figure that correctly. But I still think that Gwaihir might have been close to 700 lbs in order to carry Gandalf. A rough guess based on pure visual imagination for the wingspan of a 700 lb eagle would maybe 25-40 feet.


And I agree YayGollum, no matter what science might say is possible it doesn't prove anything about what really _is_ possible, especially a mythical creature. How much would you estimate Gandalf weighed?


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 27, 2008)

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tctoA9oCRug
> 
> Consider the ease with which this deer hunter took down this fawn at a minimal speed and not even with a dive. Are you saying that it cannot hit a coyote or wolf?



It could also _hit_ the Flying Spaghetti Monster. The question is whether a) the eagle would attempt to attack an adult wolf or human and b) whether it would succeed. I'm strongly leaning towards NO for both.

And good that we are now assured that a large predatory bird can bring down a fawn. Glad that point of contention is out of the way. 



> This freeze frame montage shows a bald eagle that took down a fox and a wolf.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjPtL...eature=related



What the frell? The only relevant things I can make out are an eagle standing victoriously on something (1:19), and another riding down on what appears to be a wolf _pup_ (1:06).



> "A bald eagle can reach a speed of up to 200 miles per hour (322 kilometers per hour) when diving through the air to grab a meal."





> For the record, I am merely going by the man who has raised and healed eagles for over 30 years told me.



And here I thought it was the Peregrine Falcon that was the fastest living animal at _200 mph_.



> Wikipedia Bald Eagle entry.
> The Bald Eagle is a powerful flier, and soars on thermal convection currents. It reaches speeds of 56–70 km/h (35–44 miles per hour) when gliding and flapping, and about 48 km/h (30 miles per hour) while carrying fish.





> Q. What is the bald eagle's diving speed?
> 
> A. Pretty fast when they do it, i'd bet 75+mph, although they seldom really "dive".. They catch prey by flying low and "snatching with their feet mostly, not like ospreys or peregrine falcons that actually dive at their prey.





> Flight speed: dive = 100 mph, cruising speed 30 - 40 mph





> Their diving speed is estimated at 75 to 100 miles per hour.



Seems like your estimate is about 100+ miles off the mark.



> Hmm...Ithy, your skepticism is 'ruffling my feathers'



Sorry, it just oozes out of me, it's my natural condition.


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## Firawyn (Apr 27, 2008)

Or perhaps these Giant Eagles were like Ants in a way - able to lift far more than the laws of physics can fathom. Perhaps they had only a...say 15 meter wingspan? 

Big enough to be a seat to Gandalf, and large enough feet to pick up 1 meter high Hobbits - yet extraordinarily strong.



And youTube? Guys, who trusts anything on youTube?


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 27, 2008)

Firawyn said:


> And youTube? Guys, who trusts anything on youTube?



A gullible Dwarf!


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## Thorin (Apr 27, 2008)

And you all can just BITE ME!! 

I have at least two credible sources (the San Diego Zoo..damn it people don't you think they would know??) and I'm not going to waste my time looking for more...though I might find one or two more...

200 miles per hour and can attack wolves...that's the truth.

Now can we get back to speculation? Nom seems to be working on the right track.

So so far we have 700 pounds with a wing span of approximately 25 meters....let's keep it coming.


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## Gothmog (Apr 28, 2008)

We do have one point of reference for the size of the giant eagles of Middle-earth. In the Silmarillion we are told about Thorondor



> Thorondor, King of Eagles, mightiest of all birds that have ever been, whose outstretched wings spanned thirty fathoms;



A fathom is 6 feet so Thorondor had a wing-span of 180 feet. Gwarhir and the others from LotR would have been noticably smaller. So somewhere around 25 - 30 meters seems reasonable.


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## Thorin (Apr 28, 2008)

Gothmog said:


> A fathom is 6 feet so Thorondor had a wing-span of 180 feet. Gwarhir and the others from LotR would have been noticably smaller. So somewhere around 25 - 30 meters seems reasonable.



The average eagle weighs between 10-14 pounds so lets say 14 pounds for the Lord of Eagles. According to ratio then, with a regular wingspan of 7 feet to a normal eagle, Thorondor would weigh about 360 pounds, not 700 that Nom initially put forth. If we used the base numbers to assume for that of Gwahir and the rest of the eagles in LoTR, then they would have a wing span of about 100 feet and a weight of about 175 pounds. I'm not sure if the difference between Thorondor and Gwahir would have been that significant though, do you?

Okay... so we've basically calculated the physicality of the birds. The question then is...would the senses be heightened or increased according to increase in physicality? Would a giant eagle also have 1 million cones in it's eyes like the average eagle or would it increase? Could a bigger bird see farther?

It might be a good to find out if there is difference in cones in the eyes between the smaller eagles and the larger eagles.


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## Confusticated (Apr 28, 2008)

But I realised right away that it is no good to use the same ratio for weight as wingspan. For instance 100 feet and 175 pounds is a remarkably lightweight eagle. 

The bigger the eagle, the less length he will have per pound.


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## Thorin (Apr 28, 2008)

Nóm said:


> But I realised right away that it is no good to use the same ratio for weight as wingspan. For instance 100 feet and 175 pounds is a remarkably lightweight eagle.
> 
> The bigger the eagle, the less length he will have per pound.



After further consideraton and consultation, I believe that my calculations are not really accurate. After presenting this to a few of my grade 11 students who take Physics, the impression they said was that you couldn't take a normal ratio between weight and wingspan. The weight would be well over a 1000 lbs One student believe that the ratio would need to be cubed. If the wingspan was 30 times greater, then the weight would need to be 30 cubed. However, we realized that this would be true for a fully solid, 3D object, and that you would end up with some ridiculous number.

We came to the conclusion that the height of the body needs to be taken into consideration as well. 

So...
The average height of a bald eagle is about 3ft with a 7 foot wingspan*
*
Something I knew but forgot to factor in is that the females are the bigger birds. The males average around 9 lbs as opposed to the female 14.

So Thorondor and Gwahir at least we know were males.

So here are the facts:

Male bald eagle
Height - 3 ft
Wingspan - 7 ft
Weight - 9 lbs


Thorondor

Height - 
Wingspan - 180 ft
Weight - 

So what is the proper way to calculate the proper ratio between these three criteria to determine Thorondor's height and weight?

Where the heck are all the Physics majors in this forum??


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## Gothmog (Apr 28, 2008)

Thorin said:


> If we used the base numbers to assume for that of Gwahir and the rest of the eagles in LoTR, then they would have a wing span of about 100 feet and a weight of about 175 pounds. I'm not sure if the difference between Thorondor and Gwahir would have been that significant though, do you?


There may well have been less difference between Gwahir and Throndor than 80 feet of wing-span, I agree. But using the 100 ft. as a 'reasonable' figure was looking at a minimum size for the eagles of LotR. Since I doubt that all the great eagles were the same size, perhaps it would be better to give a range of 100 - 140 foot Wing-span.


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## Thorin (Apr 28, 2008)

Gothmog said:


> There may well have been less difference between Gwahir and Throndor than 80 feet of wing-span, I agree. But using the 100 ft. as a 'reasonable' figure was looking at a minimum size for the eagles of LotR. Since I doubt that all the great eagles were the same size, perhaps it would be better to give a range of 100 - 140 foot Wing-span.



I edited my previous post, Goth. Maybe go back and read it and see what else you could contribute to my changes.

I agree that closer to 120-140 feet are probably a better comparison from Gwa to Thor.


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## Confusticated (Apr 28, 2008)

Eagles are so odd shaped I can't figure out how to calculate it. Baragund is a civil engineer, so he'll know physics more than most. Maybe we PM him with an invitation if he doesn't turn up here any time soon?


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## Thorin (Apr 28, 2008)

Okay...I consulted with our math teacher here and she confirmed my initial results. 

According to the facts of a regular male bald eagle, Thorondor would have been:

77 feet in height
180 ft wingspan
225 pounds

I know some said that this would be way to light for a bird that size but when we really look at th ratio of wingspan to weight of a regular eagle, that would still seem a bit far fetched..but it is how it is. They are mostly air!

Perhaps simple math can't solve this, so I will consult with the physics teacher as well....

Someone else want to get an expert opinion on the matter?


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## YayGollum (Apr 28, 2008)

And I am fairly certain that I read someplace that Thorondor was of a type of giant eagle that was some kind of larger than the Misty Mountains breed. Did I make that up, is it merely a general (and decent) theory that everyone obtained via the aether, or does some book actually give the information? Also, Garn, I didn't think that this question was that interesting.


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## Gothmog (Apr 28, 2008)

Thorin, I read back over your post. I could not think of anything to add. 

I don't think there is any reason to be concerned about the weight issue, it may not be completely accurate but is probably not far out. In most animals, a large part of the weight is due to Bone. In birds the bones form in a way that reduces weight while retaining strength for what they need.

The 'Light-weight' eagles we have in this world certainly do not suffer from being short a few pounds. They are still very powerful birds.


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## Confusticated (Apr 28, 2008)

Thorin, it looks like you used the same ratio to figure the weight and height as you have for the wingspan?


This question will demonstrate what I have been trying to say about the length per pound decreasing as the eagle size increases. I_ have_ been taking height into consideration and height is why the pound per length changes with the bird's size. Only if a giant eagle were still the same height as a bald eagle would the weight per length remain the same.

A bald eagle can lift at most half its own weight. Would a 225 pound giant eagle be able to lift Gandalf?


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## Confusticated (Apr 28, 2008)

I just attempted to verify how you got those numbers Thorin, because it looks like the weight is slightly different ratio that the height and length. It uses 25 while he others are at 25.7. Did you just round it off for simplicity or is something fancy going on?


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## Confusticated (Apr 28, 2008)

Lets use a simple example.

If you have a block of 1 cubic inch weighing 5 grams, and you make it twice as long, tall, and deep... you then have 8 cubic inches... which weighs a lot more than twice what it originally did. Weight does not increase at the same ratio as the individual size dimensions. It would be 40 grams, not 10. Same with the eagle but the calculations are more complex.


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## Confusticated (Apr 28, 2008)

Geometry is what is needed. Someone to break down the eagle into shapes like spheres and cones and such and calculate its volume, then maybe we can get the weight. There might be another way of doing it too, but I don't know what that would be.

Thorin - get back here!


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## Thorin (Apr 28, 2008)

Yes, Nom, I rounded it up from 25.7 to 26.

I just checked with our Physics teacher and he agrees that the weight would be considerably more and Nom, you are on the right track, he said that we would need to determine the volume of the body of the regular eagle to get a better idea of what Thor's weight would be.

I realize now that increase of size wouldn't be simple ratio calculations. If a man was twice our height (let's say 12 feet tall) it would make no sense to say that he would be twice our weight (maybe 400 pounds). Shaquille O'Neill is 6'8 and over 300 lbs if I'm not mistaken..and he ain't fat.

So we have to figure out the density of his body mass in volume.

Jeez what did I get myself into...I'm a French/Music teacher..I didn't even make it past grade 10 in physics.


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## Confusticated (Apr 28, 2008)

I am trying to find some detailed measurements online. Chest and head circumference for instance. Wing depth, things not so easily found as the body length and wingspan. Then we can break the bird down into geometrical shapes and find the corresponding formulas online. It would be easier to measure the dimensions of an eagle without wings expanded though, then maybe figure wing length separate?


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## Firawyn (Apr 28, 2008)

Ithrynluin said:


> A gullible Dwarf!



Yeah, and Dwarves got slaughtered by a freakin' Belrog. They're smart.


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## YayGollum (Apr 28, 2008)

Argh. More elves, on the whole, as well as as far as I can tell, were slaughtered by Balrogs. That method of death said little for their levels of intelligence. Of course, how the method came about does. Dwarves, just doing how they do, digging up some mithril, accidentally waking some irritable Ainur up versus elves spotting a Balrog and yelling, "Charge!"  Ah, anyways, Yay giant eagles! From what has been written, I was apparently correct in making my giant eagle R. P. G. character around ten or eleven feet tall, since he's supposed to be pathetic compared to most.


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## Thorin (Apr 28, 2008)

YayGollum said:


> Yay giant eagles! From what has been written, I was apparently correct in making my giant eagle R. P. G. character around ten or eleven feet tall, since he's supposed to be pathetic compared to most.




Umm..I think even Gwahir would be much taller than 11 feet tall but not everything is conclusive yet.


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## YayGollum (Apr 29, 2008)

Right. Which is why I am presuming myself correct when it comes to making a giant eagle character that was meant to be smaller than most of them.


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## Confusticated (Apr 29, 2008)

If a bald eagle with its wings in and head down is shaped something like a football then using a 34 inch long eagle that is 8 inches across the body and 14 lbs, _and_ if a giant eagle is 600 lbs (which I think is in the reasonable neighborhood) then the giant eagle @ .0122877 pound per cubic inch (like the bald eagle) would be around 4 feet across the chest and have a body length of 20 feet. Wingspan in the neighborhood of 50 feet.


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## Firawyn (Apr 29, 2008)

Now that's starting to sound a bit more realistic. I think we may be getting a bit closer to an answer. 

Yay for math wizzes! (not me!)


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## Thorin (Apr 29, 2008)

Nóm said:


> If a bald eagle with its wings in and head down is shaped something like a football then using a 34 inch long eagle that is 8 inches across the body and 14 lbs, _and_ if a giant eagle is 600 lbs (which I think is in the reasonable neighborhood) then the giant eagle @ .0122877 cubic inches per pound (like the bald eagle) would be around 4 feet across the chest and have a body length of 20 feet. Wingspan in the neighborhood of 50 feet.



So is it safe to do a ratio with these calculations for a 180 foot wingspan?
That would put Thorondor at about 72 feet high which was close to my initial appoximations. I'm not sure how you calculated the 20 feet and 4 foot chest...Could you use these numbers to determine the width and weight of Thorondor?

Good night! I'm looking 20 feet up and 50 feet across and that is huge in itself. Thorondor is sounding like a monster! He could eat Godzilla for breakfast and King Kong for lunch.


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 29, 2008)

Thorin said:


> That would put Thorondor at about 72 feet high





> _The Silmarillion: Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin_
> And Morgoth took the body of the Elven-king and broke it, and would cast it to his wolves; but Thorondor came hasting from his eyrie among the peaks of the Crissaegrim, and he stooped upon Morgoth and marred his face.





Thorin said:


> Thorondor is sounding like a monster! He could eat Godzilla for breakfast and King Kong for lunch.



...and Morgoth for dinner. Stupid bird could've ended it right there and then!


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## HLGStrider (Apr 29, 2008)

> nd Morgoth for dinner. Stupid bird could've ended it right there and then!



But we all know for a fact that Silmaril's cause awful belly aches . . . just imagine what an evil vala would do to your digestive tract.


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## Confusticated (May 1, 2008)

Thorin said:


> So is it safe to do a ratio with these calculations for a 180 foot wingspan?
> That would put Thorondor at about 72 feet high which was close to my initial appoximations. I'm not sure how you calculated the 20 feet and 4 foot chest...Could you use these numbers to determine the width and weight of Thorondor?



I'll work on it tonight. To get an estimate using wingspan instead of weight I'll just have to work out the problem backwards or something. 


I did a very rough estimate of an eagle's volume and divided its weight by that number to get the weight per inch. I figured how many cubic inches would be needed for a 600 pound eagle by diving 600 by the weight per inch. Then I just used the same length per width ratio as the bald eagle to figure the size. 


"...then the giant eagle @ .0122877 cubic inches per pound " That Should read "@ .0122877 pounds per cubic inch" 

I am going to edit my post to reflect that. Man that would have been a hell of a dense eagle! Why didn't anybody catch that.


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## Confusticated (May 2, 2008)

To figure giant eagle size by his weight:

The best single shape I can find that fits closest to a eagle with his wings in is called a prolate spheroid. The formula to figure out the volume of such a shape is 1.33333 x 3.14159 x half its length x half its depth x half its width = volume.

Enter the eagle size you want to use as a basis.

After you have the volume, divide the weight of your eagle by the volume. This will give you density - how much your eagle weighs on average per cubic inch.

Now divide the weight of your hypothetical giant eagle by that weight per inch.

Now you know how many cubic inches in size your giant eagle is. You can use ratio that you used for your real eagle to figure the length, width, and wingspan of your giant eagle.


Here I will estimate Thorondor's weight and height based on his wingspan of 180 feet.

In a real eagle of 34 inches he may be at 7 feet wingspan. So wingspan is roughly 2.5 times the body length in a real eagle - why not a giant one? This is not like weight per length. As Thorin already figured Thorondor would be 72 feet in length. Using my original sample eagle of 34 inches long and 8 inches across, and maybe Thorondor could have a chest of 16 feet across. I tend to think the chest ratio I have been using may be too small (I originally figured it without taking folded up wings into account), but I haven't found better numbers to use yet. The real thing here is the wingspan and weight anyhow. That, along with height will give a good enough indication of size IMO.

So if Thorondor is 180 feet in wingspan and 72 tall - what is his weight?

Well, my base eagle says .0122877 for density so I'll multiply that by Thorondor's volume of 115811.67156, and we have a 1,423 pound bird. Variations in density will drastically change his weight, so will tweaking the chest width. There is margin for error in his weight. For instance lets say the volume is off a little and the bird is actually .017297 pounds per inch instead of .0122877, then Thorondor would be 2003 pounds. And if Thorondor can lift as much per his weight as a bald eagle he could have carried half the shire to Mordor! 

The smaller eagles of the Third Age could have varied. I guess its up to each reader to imagine them whatever size he likes. I played with some numbers the other day for fun, but unlike Thorondor its all wild guesses.

Now someone else can figure the eye cone thing. I don't know about Gwaihir and crew, but Manwe's big time First Age eagles are said to see to the depths of the sea and basically through anything other than the immediate shadow surrounding Morgoth's lair. So however many the cones, they were plenty...


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## Gothmog (May 2, 2008)

Nice work Nom. No Morgoth was concerned about him


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## Thorin (May 2, 2008)

Good job Nom, though you lost me a few times with some of the figures.

So, speculatively Thorondor's dimensions would be:

Wingspan: 180 feet
Width: 16 feet
Height: 72 feet
Weight: appx: 1400 lbs

Oh my gosh...Does anybody want to draw a smaller scaled diagram of what even a 7 foot elf would look like beside this monstrosity? 

Now here is the other question from the info that Gothmog brought up (I think)

How big exactly was Morgoth for this beast of a bird to mar his face? The small tip of Thor's claw would probably have cut Morgoth in half even if he were twice the size of a normal elf! For Morgoth to have been logically attacked by Thorondor in any sort of battle without Thorondor absolutely dwarfing Morgoth, he would have to stand at least over 40 feet tall.

We know that Morgoth slew Fingolfin but surely an elf wouldn't have gone up against such a huge being, even if he was a 10 foot tall elf.

Did Tolkien create a huge discrepancy by making Thorondor have a 180 foot wingspan?


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## Confusticated (May 2, 2008)

If I get extra time I may install Paintsho Pro again and make some visuals.


In my opinion the fact that Fingolfin wounded Morgoth in the foot a few times and nowhere else supports the idea that Morgoth in fact was HUGE. Even though Morgoth might have been good with his giant shield. I bet he was nearly 50 feet tall, and I can see a 50 foot Morgoth holding his own against a 72 foot eagle long enough to run for cover... hehe.

But more importantly, Thorondor was in direct connection and service to Manwe, who, given the way the Valar handled the rebellion of the Noldor and Morgoth, may not have wanted Thorondor to interefere more than necessary. The Valar could have made war against Morgoth at that time but chose to keep their distance. It may be (though it seems unlikely) that Thorondor didn't even ask Manwe's permission to peck at Morgoth, and during the attack got a message saying to lay off him. Peck and claw him just enough to stop him from squashing Fingolfin, and take his body to his eldest son.

And Fingolfin only went up against Morgoth when he was mad with despair and rage. Remember when Morgoth attacked Valinor all the Noldor of Formenos fled at his approach except for Finwe, and the Noldor aren't generally sissies.


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## HLGStrider (May 2, 2008)

Morgoth was like the end game boss.


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## Thorin (May 2, 2008)

Nóm said:


> In my opinion the fact that Fingolfin wounded Morgoth in the foot a few times and nowhere else supports the idea that Morgoth in fact was HUGE. Even though Morgoth might have been good with his giant shield. I bet he was nearly 50 feet tall, and I can see a 50 foot Morgoth holding his own against a 72 foot eagle long enough to run for cover... hehe..



Yes, that's right...I forgot about him wounding Morgoth only in the foot.
Sheesh, Fingolfin sure had balls didn't he?

So....anybody interested in calculating Morgoth's height, width and weight? 
(* heads for cover)


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## Thorin (Mar 20, 2010)

I thought I'd resurrect this thread for interest's sake. Nom sure did a great job here and I am wondering that seeing as we got the size of Thorondor out of the way, if we have any takers on figuring out the physical dimensions of Morgoth! 

What about the size of Middle Earth? The distance relative to our own countries of the trip from the Shire to Mordor?

Any ideas or takers?


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## lorkar (Apr 20, 2010)

well i think i can speculate about morgoth dimension, but i dont have quotes that support it though.

nvm ill still do it, but no in lbs, neither in feets, because i am south american and we use international units system and not american zzzzz..i mean i will use meters and kilograms.

the size of morgoth pictured in the animated silmarillion book, for me was like 10 times an elf (of the high stature of fingolfin), so if fingolfin was like 2 meters or 1.90, maybe , morgoth was 20 meters tall!!!

morgoth could also change his size at will, so in his stance in valinor he was the same size as a common elf.

also get in mind the size of the balrog in the movie...he was huge, still morgoth was bigger than him, a lot more bigger.

he could break the earth with his hammer, and lava come from it, omg was huge.

IT IS also said in the silmarillion that the first time melkor entered arda as a material being, he entered like a mountain in height, yes, he was even bigger than before, so bigger that he could destroy the two towers of old, and almarien just by himself, also he destroyed mountains at will, and raised them also, as he did with utumno and angband, but after his imprisionment and further ungoliant attack, he lost A LOT of power, and he couldnt mold the earth anymore.


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## Confusticated (Oct 6, 2010)

Thorin said:


> Sheesh, Fingolfin sure had balls didn't he?


 Hehe - but who wants to calculate the size of em.

:*D


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