# The Elves of Mirkwood vs Rivendell



## 1stvermont (Feb 4, 2022)

My 11-year-old so has read The Hobbit and has recently started FOTR and the questions are rolling in. He loves the military aspects of Middle-earth and wanted to know who would win in a war the elves under Thraduril, or Elrond. He had clearly put a lot of thought into the question and he listed the many reasons why he thought his side was stronger, but his evidence sadly came from the movies for the most part. So I was wondering what the knowledgable lore masters here might come up with. My son believes the Mirkwood elves had a larger population. I remember Karen Fonstad in the Atlas of ME calculated population numbers. Does anyone have those numbers handy?


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## Olorgando (Feb 4, 2022)

1stvermont said:


> I remember Karen Fonstad in the Atlas of ME calculated population numbers. Does anyone have those numbers handy?


Fonstad does have a section "Population" on pages 186 and 188 of my 1991 (paperback) edition. Unfortunately for your purposes, it is "only" a commentary on the maps shown on page 187, which give three color codings of "dense to sparse" populations of Elves, Men and Hobbits, but no numbers.


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## 1stvermont (Feb 4, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> Fonstad does have a section "Population" on pages 186 and 188 of my 1991 (paperback) edition. Unfortunately for your purposes, it is "only" a commentary on the maps shown on page 187, which give three color codings of "dense to sparse" populations of Elves, Men and Hobbits, but no numbers.



Well, that's not good. I think I will consult Foster's complete guide to ME, see if anything turns up.


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## 1stvermont (Feb 4, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> Fonstad does have a section "Population" on pages 186 and 188 of my 1991 (paperback) edition. Unfortunately for your purposes, it is "only" a commentary on the maps shown on page 187, which give three color codings of "dense to sparse" populations of Elves, Men and Hobbits, but no numbers.



I am looking on p 186-187 of it does appear Fonstad has the woodland realm with a wider area of population along with a small [like rivendell] area of dance population. That would indicate more elves remained in that area.

On p112 under the battle of the 5 armies, Fonstad puts Thranduil's army at least 1,ooo spearmen plus archers.


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## HALETH✒🗡 (Feb 5, 2022)

In my opinion, the elves of Rivendell played a greater role in struggling with Sauron. So, I voted for them.


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## Melkor (Feb 5, 2022)

I vote for Rivendell. For several reasons. Imladris have very good strategic position. For Rivendell elves would be easier to sit and wait for Thranduil's forces to come. Rivendell was besieged by Sauron's massive army during War of elves and Sauron and he didn't conquer Rivendell with his much much bigger army. Another thing is, that Lindond elves would probably side with Rivendell, so they can crush Thranduil's army from both sides. In Rivendell still live some Noldors (as well in Lindon), which are stronger than Sindarin and Nandorin elves of Mirkwood.

And on the other hand - Thranduil's halls resembles Menegroth. Dwarves of Nogrod and Sons of Fëanor really didn't have much trouble invade Menegroth.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 5, 2022)

For those who don't have Fonstad, a couple of the maps are reproduced here:

__
https://askmiddlearth.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F56974945874


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## 1stvermont (Feb 5, 2022)

HALETH✒🗡 said:


> In my opinion, the elves of Rivendell played a greater role in struggling with Sauron. So, I voted for them.



Thanks for voting.


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## 1stvermont (Feb 5, 2022)

Melkor said:


> I vote for Rivendell. For several reasons. Imladris have very good strategic position. For Rivendell elves would be easier to sit and wait for Thranduil's forces to come. Rivendell was besieged by Sauron's massive army during War of elves and Sauron and he didn't conquer Rivendell with his much much bigger army. Another thing is, that Lindond elves would probably side with Rivendell, so they can crush Thranduil's army from both sides. In Rivendell still live some Noldors (as well in Lindon), which are stronger than Sindarin and Nandorin elves of Mirkwood.
> 
> And on the other hand - Thranduil's halls resembles Menegroth. Dwarves of Nogrod and Sons of Fëanor really didn't have much trouble invade Menegroth.



I should have mentioned he wanted to compare them in the third age. So the losses suffered by Rivendell earlier as well as Noldor leaving affected their strength. I would also add that Sauron had many forces busy not all concentrated on Elrond. 

He did not intend to bring in allies such as Lorien or Lindon, simply a hypothetical what if they fought.


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## Melkor (Feb 5, 2022)

But I compared third age Rivendell and third age Mirkwood. Rivendell still have Noldor elves in the third age. Not as many as in the second age, but I think that it still make a difference.

Yes, not all Sauron's forces were concentrated on Rivendell, but still were bigger threat than Thranduil's army in TA.


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## 1stvermont (Feb 5, 2022)

Melkor said:


> Yes, not all Sauron's forces were concentrated on Rivendell, but still were bigger threat than Thranduil's army in TA.


You could be correct of course, but I think the reason Rivendell was attacked had to do with geography and where the great elven rings were crafted, not due to its military threat.


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## Melkor (Feb 5, 2022)

1stvermont said:


> You could be correct of course, but I think the reason Rivendell was attacked had to do with geography and where the great elven rings were crafted, not due to its military threat.


Reason is irrelevant, the important thing is that Rivendell didn't fell under Sauron's siege.


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## 1stvermont (Feb 6, 2022)

Melkor said:


> Reason is irrelevant, the important thing is that Rivendell didn't fell under Sauron's siege.



But that could be said of many areas. Erebor did not fall when besieged by the forces of Sauron during the WOTR neither did Lothlorien. In fact, we could say Mirkwood repelled Sauron during "the battle under the trees" during the WOTR and avoided a siege while Elrond was defeated and fled to become besieged. Further, Thranduil joined with the elves of Lothlorien and captured Dol Guldur. If only result matter devoid of circumstances I think we must choose Mirkwood.


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## Olorgando (Feb 6, 2022)

Wait a minute. There is no mention of any attack on Rivendell during the War of the Ring in the Third Age. Elrond's retreat before the forces of Sauron, and the founding of Rivendell, happened during the *Second* Age, and the War of Sauron and the Elves (which might be called War of the Ring*s* in plural), mainly against Celebrimbor. Don't confuse this with what Gandalf, in "Unfinished Tales", "Part Three: The Third Age", "III The Quest of Erebor" mentions as a *possibility*, had Smaug not been destroyed during what was recorded in "The Hobbit".


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## Melkor (Feb 6, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> Wait a minute. There is no mention of any attack on Rivendell during the War of the Ring in the Third Age. Elrond's retreat before the forces of Sauron, and the founding of Rivendell, happened during the *Second* Age, and the War of Sauron and the Elves (which might be called War of the Ring*s* in plural), mainly against Celebrimbor. Don't confuse this with what Gandalf, in "Unfinished Tales", "Part Three: The Third Age", "III The Quest of Erebor" mentions as a *possibility*, had Smaug not been destroyed during what was recorded in "The Hobbit".


But I talk about War of elves and Sauron, not about War of the ring


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## Olorgando (Feb 6, 2022)

Melkor said:


> But I talk about War of elves and Sauron, not about War of the ring





Melkor said:


> But I compared third age Rivendell and third age Mirkwood. Rivendell still have Noldor elves in the third age. Not as many as in the second age, but I think that it still make a difference.
> Yes, not all Sauron's forces were concentrated on Rivendell, but still were bigger threat than Thranduil's army in TA.


Erm ... maybe you want to make up your mind which Age you're posting about? And then there's 1stvermont's clarification:


1stvermont said:


> I should have mentioned he wanted to compare them in the third age.


In the Third Age, there is no mention of an attack on Rivendell. In the Second Age, during the War of the Elves and Sauron, there's no mention of either Lothlórien or the Greenwood Elves - which were ruled by Thranduil's father Oropher at the time; the latter fell during the War of the Last Alliance at the end of the Second Age.


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## Melkor (Feb 6, 2022)

I just want to emphasize, that Rivendell is very well protected. Rivendell didn't fell during Sauron's siege in SA - and Sauron's army in that time was much bigger threat than Thranduil's army in TA. So it's proven, that Rivendell have pretty good defence. So, even despite Rivendell has lesser army in TA than in SA, it cannot be conquered by Thranduil's army (if you have good defence, you can hold the place even with a few soldiers).


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## Olorgando (Feb 6, 2022)

From Appendix B "The Tale of Years", section "The Second Age":

1695 Sauron's forces invade Eriador. Gil-galad sends Elrond to Eregion.
1697 Eregion laid waste. Death of Celebrimbor. The gates of Moria are shut. Elrond retreats with remnant of the Noldor and founds the refuge of Imladris.
1699 Sauron overruns Eriador.
1700 Tar-Minastir sends a great navy from Númenor to Lindon _{to Gil-galad}_. Sauron is defeated.
1701 Sauron is driven out of Eriador.

Sauron's main attack, after the destruction of Eregion, would most likely have been the place of residence of his main enemy, Gil-galad the high king of the Noldor in Middle-earth (who had also centuries earlier rebuffed the advances under false pretenses of "Annatar"), not a defeated remnant of the forces that had fought him in Eregion. Sauron may not even have known the exact location of Rivendell, while he sure knew where Lindon was. So any deduction of Rivendell's ability to resist attack - nowhere is it described as a fortress! - must remain speculative.


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## Melkor (Feb 6, 2022)

https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Rivendell?so=search#Second_Age

Sauron laid siege to it but with the arrival of the Númenóreans the besieging force was destroyed.


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## Olorgando (Feb 6, 2022)

I don't accept Internet sites of any form as authorities by themselves, unless they provide book and page of writings by JRRT, whether published by himself in his lifetime, or by Christopher Tolkien and other editors quoting from JRRT's previously unpublished writings. So, The Sil, UT, HoMe, John D. Rateliff's "The History of The Hobbit", Carl F. Hostetter's "The Nature of Middle-earth", and any others who have had access to JRRT's writings.

So far, I have failed to find any mention of a siege of Rivendell in The Sil, UT, and the three lexicons about Middle-earth that I own. Perhaps somewhere in volumes 6 to 9 of HoMe dealing with LoTR?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 6, 2022)

There's a bit more in the way of citation here:









First Siege of Imladris


The First Siege of Imladris was a siege of Elrond's refuge by Sauron's forces during the War of the Elves and Sauron in the Second Age....




tolkiengateway.net





The cited references to the siege in UT can be found starting on page 238, although it's unclear to me how much of a "siege" took place, as opposed to "containment".

And much depends on whether this writing is considered canon. A matter of personal choice, I imagine.


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## Olorgando (Feb 6, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> There's a bit more in the way of citation here:
> The cited references to the siege in UT can be found starting on page 238, although it's unclear to me how much of a "siege" took place, as opposed to "containment".
> And much depends on whether this writing is considered canon. A matter of personal choice, I imagine.


Right, found it in "Unfinished Tales", "Part Two: The Second Age", IV "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn"; page 238 in my 1986 paperback reprint of the original edition, but on page 2*5*8 of my 2020 40th anniversary special edition hardcover. That's more like it.

"Now Sauron's immediate purpose was to take Lindon, where he believed he had the most chance of seizing one, or more, of the Three Rings; and he called in therefore his scattered forces and marched west towards the land of Gil-galad, ravaging as he went. But his force was weakened by the necessity of leaving a strong detachment to *contain* Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear."

a bit later, near the bottom of the page

"The army that was besieging Imladris was caught between Elrond and Gil-galad, and utterly destroyed."

Now in my opinion, that seems to be a "defensive siege", aimed at preventing Elrond from breaking out, not an offensive siege with the intent of taking Imladris. For which purpose the "detachment" was probably inadequate, given its later utter destruction. But it is still not clear, to me at least, which specific form Imladris's resistance to a siege took. No description known to me gives the impression of it being a fortress, as I mentioned above.

But then, all of this Second Age action took part over 4,700 years before the War of the Ring at the end of the Third Age. My guess is that quite a few Elves had left Middle-earth in the intervening millennia, so any forces Elrond might still have had at the end of the Third Age must have been greatly diminished - and that is what would have to be compared to Thranduil's realm of the same time in the Third Age.


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## Melkor (Feb 6, 2022)

To me seems logical that if Sauron could destroy Elrond's forces, he would destroy them. This would prevent Elrond to helping Gil-Galad non the less and Sauron would have less enemies and also could concentrate all of his forces on Lindon (not mentioning that he could capture Elrond and use him as hostage).


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## 1stvermont (Feb 6, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> Wait a minute. There is no mention of any attack on Rivendell during the War of the Ring in the Third Age. Elrond's retreat before the forces of Sauron, and the founding of Rivendell, happened during the *Second* Age, and the War of Sauron and the Elves (which might be called War of the Ring*s* in plural), mainly against Celebrimbor. Don't confuse this with what Gandalf, in "Unfinished Tales", "Part Three: The Third Age", "III The Quest of Erebor" mentions as a *possibility*, had Smaug not been destroyed during what was recorded in "The Hobbit".



Yeah, that is what he was referring to. I was just using the WOTR as examples of failed attacks by Sauron on areas that are not typically thought of as powerhouses such as Mirkwood.


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## Olorgando (Feb 6, 2022)

So maybe Sauron wasn't always perfectly logical ...


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## 1stvermont (Feb 6, 2022)

Melkor said:


> I just want to emphasize, that Rivendell is very well protected. Rivendell didn't fell during Sauron's siege in SA - and Sauron's army in that time was much bigger threat than Thranduil's army in TA. So it's proven, that Rivendell have pretty good defence. So, even despite Rivendell has lesser army in TA than in SA, it cannot be conquered by Thranduil's army (if you have good defence, you can hold the place even with a few soldiers).



This does assume Thranduil must attack Rivendell. Perhaps though, you are underestimating the losses suffered by the Noldor through battles and immigration west. Meanwhile, Tolkien said the elves under Thranduil multiplied during the third age. You could also be overestimating the % of Saurons forces used to besiege Elrond. Perhaps he just wanted to keep Elrond from helping his main enemies.


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## Melkor (Feb 6, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> So maybe Sauron wasn't always perfectly logical ...


Sauron isn't stupid. Apperently he can't destroy Elrond's forces, so he at least kept them traped far away from Lindon.


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## 1stvermont (Feb 6, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> There's a bit more in the way of citation here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If this article is correct it seems to support my hypothesis, that the force sent to Rivendell was more a holding force to pin him down while Sauron's more potent enemies could be dealt with.


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## Melkor (Feb 6, 2022)

1stvermont said:


> This does assume Thranduil must attack Rivendell. Perhaps though, you are underestimating the losses suffered by the Noldor through battles and immigration west. Meanwhile, Tolkien said the elves under Thranduil multiplied during the third age. You could also be overestimating the % of Saurons forces used to besiege Elrond. Perhaps he just wanted to keep Elrond from helping his main enemies.


Again, if Sauron could destroy Elrond, he would do that.

And if Elrond didn't have force to defeat Thranduil, why would he go to open battle? He would have better chance in well protected place.


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## 1stvermont (Feb 6, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> Right, found it in "Unfinished Tales", "Part Two: The Second Age", IV "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn"; page 238 in my 1986 paperback reprint of the original edition, but on page 2*5*8 of my 2020 40th anniversary special edition hardcover. That's more like it.
> 
> "Now Sauron's immediate purpose was to take Lindon, where he believed he had the most chance of seizing one, or more, of the Three Rings; and he called in therefore his scattered forces and marched west towards the land of Gil-galad, ravaging as he went. But his force was weakened by the necessity of leaving a strong detachment to *contain* Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear."
> 
> ...



As I just told SES it seems to support my hypothesis that the force sent to Rivendell was more a holding force to pin him down while Sauron's more potent enemies could be dealt with. You said it was in inadequate, but I don't think that is the case. Sauron seems to have planned on wiping out all of Eriador and likely tracking back after to finish off Moria/Elrond. Had Gil-galad not shown up I don't see why Elrond could have broken out on his own.

I was just thinking, besides Elrond and his sons, and we could say Glorfiendel, Rivendell really took no action during TWOTR. I am surprised more did not join the dunadain and Aragorn. perhaps they really were pretty weak at the time of TWOTR.


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## 1stvermont (Feb 6, 2022)

Melkor said:


> To me seems logical that if Sauron could destroy Elrond's forces, he would destroy them. This would prevent Elrond to helping Gil-Galad non the less and Sauron would have less enemies and also could concentrate all of his forces on Lindon (not mentioning that he could capture Elrond and use him as hostage).



I think he was more concerned with retrieving the rings, Moria, and all of Eriador instead of a section of elves that went into hiding. I think he was doing just what you suggest but thought Elrond less of a worry and more easily manageable by breaking off a section of his army to focus on others.


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## 1stvermont (Feb 6, 2022)

Melkor said:


> Sauron isn't stupid. Apperently he can't destroy Elrond's forces, so he at least kept them traped far away from Lindon.



Once more you are assuming his primary focus must have been to destroy Elrond, Tolkien never tells us that. He says the rings and Eriador rather than a newly created hidden refuge are his focus. Had Elrond been his focus he would have assaulted with all his might.

I agree Sauron is not stupid, but remember Gandalf called him a wise fool. His quest for power tended to overtake his military decisions to his own harm at times. Including his obsession with rings.


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## 1stvermont (Feb 6, 2022)

Melkor said:


> Again, if Sauron could destroy Elrond, he would do that.
> 
> And if Elrond didn't have force to defeat Thranduil, why would he go to open battle? He would have better chance in well protected place.


I was mentioning the changes between second age and third is perhaps greater than you are taking into account. 

For you to make the argument that Sauron could not destroy Rivendell you would have to show it was his primary goal and he attempted with all he had. But all indicators is this is not the case. He wanted Eridor and the rings not a newly created refuge of retreating elves. I doubt Sauron's new Elrond had a ring at this point and in fact, I don't think Elrond did get his ring until after. 

If that is the case that Rivendell remains hidden and won't fight in open battle, then at best they could achieve a draw and not victory. 


Now I think we are going to disagree on the power of Rivendell in the second age. But since we are comparing at the time of WOTR what really did Rivendell offer other than Elrond's two sons, Glorfindel for a bit, and the wisdom of Elrond? It seems they lacked fighting power or at least the willingness to help. I think their minds were West by that point.


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## 1stvermont (Feb 6, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> So maybe Sauron wasn't always perfectly logical ...


He was, Gandalf tells us, a "_wise fool_" 

I like to consider myself the first but all to often its the second


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## Gandalf Olorien (Feb 8, 2022)

I think the Elves of Rivendell because they have been around longer. They also have Elrond, who has a ring of power.


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## 1stvermont (Feb 9, 2022)

Gandalf Olorien said:


> I think the Elves of Rivendell because they have been around longer. They also have Elrond, who has a ring of power.



But they also leave sooner. Mirkwood stayed into the 4th age while Rivendell was abandoned.


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## Elmoth (Mar 3, 2022)

Mirkwood is a realm
imladris is a very strong fortress, but only a fortress. 

So I vote Mirkwood.


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## ZehnWaters (Mar 3, 2022)

Mirkwood has a larger population. Rivendell has more advanced technology (as was both of their wonts; Rivendell desired to be more educated and Mirkwood desired to be more "rustic").


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## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 3, 2022)

i vote Imladris, because in Mirkwood already is Saurons Shadow, and there are a lot of evil creatures like this big black spiders. Thranduil and his elves had not the power to keep Saurons shadow fully away from Mirkwood, so i choose Rivendell, because there Saurons dark power could not come in.


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