# Deaths among the Atani



## Artanis (May 31, 2004)

What is a natural death for the Atani?

We know about the Númenorean kings of old, who at old age gracefully resigned from their duties and passed the sceptre on to the next generation, and then lied themselves down to die. They had finished their task in Arda and it was time for them to leave. Aragorn too followed this tradition when his reign in Gondor had come to an end. I would say that this is indeed a natural death for a Man in Tolkien's world, as opposed to striving to stay alive as long as the physical body is able.

Under which circumstances is it possible for one of the Atani to die a wilful death?

Again, it seems that Men were able to die wilfully at old age. But there is at least one known person who died a wilful death when still young: Rían, wife of Huor, who gave birth to her son Tuor, and afterwards went forth into the wild to die. As I see it, she did not want to live anymore when she learned that her husband was slain in the Nirnaeth. But was this death natural? Was it a fault in her, not wanting to proceed with her life? Is it an option for all of Men, to die peacefully of free choice when life seems unbearable, even if your mind and body would be strong and healthy still for many years? If this is true, why then did Túrin have to cast himself upon his sword in order to end his life, and why did Nienor have to cast herself in the river Teiglin?

Comments, anyone?


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## Lantarion (Jun 1, 2004)

A good question, Artanis! 
But I think you are looking at the matter at a too concrete, 'Quendian' way.  Whereas Elves have abilities similar to what you are describing, i.e. being in different metaphysical states of being, because their _fëar_ or spirits are far different from those of Men, being linked directly to the existance of Arda, Men do not have such 'magical' powers. Even the greatest Men described in Tolkien's stories have great strength, cunning, love, and/or hardiness, but nobody is ever reported to have actually willed themself to die, or to have performed any similar existential feats. 
What the Númenóreans did was simply a letting go of the world, not struggling against the inevitable. They did not conjur themselves into their afterlife, they let themselves be carried there. Kings like Tar-Minyatur, Nólimon, Tar-Elendil and so forth did just that; they yielded to their Gift (as it was still seen in those days) and went peacefully. 
So in partial answer, I do not believe that Men, even Númenóreans, were able to 'kill themselves' in the manner which we are discussing; Rían's death could be explained in numerous ways, and in fact her death may have been a romantisized suicide for all we know. But I do not believe that her life ended in the manner of the early Númenórean kings, because she was under great distress and pain and would have gone far from peacefully.
But that brings me to an element that has closely to do with this manner of dying after the Second Age; disease. The Númenóreans were blessed by the Valar never to have illness or sickness of any kind; but this blessing did not reach beyond the _Akallabêth_. Men of Beleriand and Eriador, and all of Middle-earth, were prone to sickness and untimely death, which the Quendi viewed with great confusion when they first had encountered Men. Due to the throes of some supposedly fatal sicknesses, it would have been difficult to simply let go and die peacefully.. And other elements are certainly present that contradict the notion of a Númenórean Death, but I won't go looking for them now. 

So in the end I believe it was largely a psychological matter; it was a case of being without load or weight or care, and accenpting that which was inevitable. A very Taoist idea, if you ask me, but there you have it.


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## Artanis (Jun 1, 2004)

Lantarion said:


> A good question, Artanis!
> But I think you are looking at the matter at a too concrete, 'Quendian' way.


Thanks.  And yes, maybe I am, but with my username, what can I do? 



Lantarion said:


> What the Númenóreans did was simply a letting go of the world, not struggling against the inevitable. They did not conjur themselves into their afterlife, they let themselves be carried there. Kings like Tar-Minyatur, Nólimon, Tar-Elendil and so forth did just that; they yielded to their Gift (as it was still seen in those days) and went peacefully.


I'm not sure if I agree with you. I would say they recognised the gift as what it was, a Gift, and had no fear of death, and therefore _chose_ to die by will when they felt the time was up, rather than descend into dotage. Tar-Atanamir was the first Númenorean king to not lay down his life, and he lived long enough to become witless before he died. He didn't have to struggle to live those extra years, it was enough to choose so.

Also, there is Aragorn's farewell words to Arwen:


> Take counsel with yourself, beloved, and ask whether you would indeed have the wait until I wither and rail from my high seat unmanned and witless. Nay, lady, I am the last of the Númenoreans and the latest King of the Elder Days; and to me has been given not only a span thrice that of Men of Middle-earth, but also the grace to go *at my will*, and give back the gift. Now, therefore, I will sleep.


 My emphasis. Other places in the books use expressions like "lie down his life", which to me suggests a more active act than "yielding his life". But I will agree that the option to die by will was not there for all Men, but restricted to the Númenoreans and their descendants, maybe even restricted to the line of Elros. 



Lantarion said:


> So in partial answer, I do not believe that Men, even Númenóreans, were able to 'kill themselves' in the manner which we are discussing; Rían's death could be explained in numerous ways, and in fact her death may have been a romantisized suicide for all we know. But I do not believe that her life ended in the manner of the early Númenórean kings, because she was under great distress and pain and would have gone far from peacefully.


 When I used the word 'peacefully', it was in the meaning 'in faith', believing in the grace of Eru. Sorry for being unclear. I use to compare Rían's death to Arwen's death. They had both lost their great love, I assume they both had hopes of a reunion with their husbands in the afterlife. Of course Arwen was a Half-Elven who had chosen the fate of Men, which would serve to explain why she was able to give up life.


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## Lantarion (Jun 1, 2004)

I see where your argument is coming from; but in the end terms like "lay down ones life" can be seen as pure linguistic chosen usage, figures of speech, rather than real descriptions of actions.


Artanis said:


> I would say they recognised the gift as what it was, a Gift, and had no fear of death, and therefore chose to die by will when they felt the time was up, rather than descend into dotage.


Have you considered the possibility that perhaps this dotage and slow witlessness was due to not letting go, to the struggle in a person to stay alive when clearly they are not 'meant' to? And your example of Tar-Atanamir backs that up; when he did not yield and let his life go, he became ravished mentally by the process and struggle of unnatural life.
And as I said, your word-notes like "at my will" can be seen as mere euphemisms for the wilful abandoning of care and worry of death; nothing active there as far as I see it.


Artanis said:


> When I used the word 'peacefully', it was in the meaning 'in faith', believing in the grace of Eru. Sorry for being unclear. I use to compare Rían's death to Arwen's death. They had both lost their great love, I assume they both had hopes of a reunion with their husbands in the afterlife. Of course Arwen was a Half-Elven who had chosen the fate of Men, which would serve to explain why she was able to give up life.


Oh I see.. A strange way to use a derivative adverb of the word 'peace'.. Ah well. 
But this point of yours is basically the same argument as the 'dying of grief' scenario, which Tolkien himself wrote was possible; at least for Quendi. I think Arwen might have tapped into that power that she possessed still as an Elf, and thus ina way chose the Doom of Men. That might explain her death; but I am unsure what to think of Rían's. I think in one interpretation it could be 'written off' as a legendary account of the death of a woman, supposedly pined away in grief, when in fact the reality of the situation may have been different; but I don't know what to think about it. 

What about others, what are your thoughts on this matter of human mortality?


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## Flame of Udûn (Jun 2, 2004)

I agree with *Artanis*. Aragorn, at least, had the ability to die when he willed it.


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## Lantarion (Jun 2, 2004)

Flame of Udûn said:


> Aragorn, at least, had the ability to die when he willed it.


I think you'll find that that is impossible to prove; but it doesn't mean you don't have your right to an opinion, so I'll leave it at that.


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## Confusticated (Jun 2, 2004)

I tend to think that Men as an Unfallen race, as they were originally designed, would leave the world peacefully. And that the Numenoreans became close to this original state for some time and this is why they could pass in peace. 

I do not view Rian and Arwen's death as happening in the same way Aragorn's did. I think they just laid down in grief and did not get up again, not even having the will to drink, and so they dehydrated.

The Numenoreans lived for many years and then aged only near the end. I believe that this agining did not begin until one began to grow weary in spirit, not long before he felt it was time to leave the world. I would also say that some Men even among Numenoreans died sooner simply because their spirits tired of the world sooner. So what would I say the circumstances need to be for a man to pass in this way? 1) He'd have to be in a state close to that of Unfallen Men (though just exactly what this state is we cannot know... it must involve a great faith in Eru, no over-whelming dread of death, and a wisdom more like the elves?) and 2) Grow weary of the world, regardless of exact age. But before he is weary enough to leave, he will probably have physically aged.


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## Lantarion (Jun 3, 2004)

Your view is very similar to mine, Nóm!  But I wonder why you list 'great faith in Eru' as a requisite for passing peacefully.. That touches not insignificantly on the Judeo-Christian belief in God, and the linked concepts of Heaven and Hell. As Tolkien did not want to make his pantheon and cosmology a Christian parable, I don't think faith in God would have had anything to do with the way Atani died, in the Professor's own designs. 
But any evidence proving such a link would be very interesting, if one could locate some. 
I think the thread actually discusses whether Men were able to will themselves to die, to lay down and actually cease to live, or was this something the Númenóreans alone could do (and I agree with your Unfallen Men-notion here), so perhaps we shouldn't go too deep into philosophy.


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## Flame of Udûn (Jun 4, 2004)

Lantarion said:


> I think you'll find that that is impossible to prove; but it doesn't mean you don't have your right to an opinion, so I'll leave it at that.





> and to me has been given not only a span thrice that of Men of Middle-earth, but also the grace to go *at my will*, and give back the gift.





> - *at will* *:* as one wishes *:* as or when it pleases or suits oneself


I can see no other interpretation for his words.


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## Lantarion (Jun 4, 2004)

As I said before, it is indeed a matter of interpretation. 'At my will' might easily be an exagguration of the way that Númenóreans were able to let go and accept their fate; though in that sense indeed it is at their own will, to decide whether to struggle and hold on to life artificially or to go when it is their time. But at least that quote does not actually make clear any active task on part of the person, even though it seems to be implied. And even that can be seen as something of a 'legendary exagguration', i.e. something like mortality could be kept in a jar and 'handed back'! 
I think people have different ways of seeing the matter, and unless some quote from Tolkien himself proves the matter in either direction it is seemingly purposeless to argue over it.


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## Ingolmin (Jan 5, 2017)

No, not for all. For some it can be okay.
After hearing news of the battle Rían became distraught and left Dor-lómin to wander alone in the wild. She was rescued by the Sindar of Mithrim who took her to their dwelling in the mountains. Before the end of the year Tuor was born and was given to the Elves of Mithrim to be fostered. Rían, having heard from Annael the leader of the Elves the news of Huor's death, made her way to the Haudh-en-Ndengin, where she laid down in grief and died. 
She could do nothing after Huor had died except looking after her son which can be excused because he was nurtured by elves then.
But if any warlord such as Hurin or Huor fearing their death would have died would not be acceptable because they had a duty which was to aid the elves in the war against the wars of Morgoth and to take care of their house(in this case the House of Hador).
Only when the man was relieved from his duties could he have a willful death.
King Elessar had a right to have a willful death though he did not commit suicide because everything was okay in his kingdom and he had passed the kingship to his son.
But this was not so with Denethor II, Steward of Gondor who out of fear of death and defeat committed suicide.


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