# Is Arwen Doomed to grieve Aragorn forever?



## Aragorn (Sep 3, 2008)

We all know that after the death of the elves, their souls are gathered in Mandos, their stay is temporary for some (they could be re-embodied) or eternal (as the world lasts) for the others. But concerning the spirits of Men, even the Valar don’t know to which realm they pass after the crossing of the outer sea.

Does the choice of mortality made by Arwen allow her spirit to pass beyond the outer sea and join Aragorn? Or is she doomed to be separated from him forever after his death?


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## HLGStrider (Sep 3, 2008)

I would say that she joined Aragorn due to the precedence of the previous Elves who have chosen mortality (Elrond's brother, for instance.). It would seem strange (and cruel) if Arwen were allowed to choose death but then somehow become banned from the afterlife.


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## Confusticated (Sep 3, 2008)

Hullo Aragorn, glad to have you join us. 

When Arwen became a moral she would have to share her ultimate fate with Men. That is why her parting with Elrond was so painful to him, they were sundered 'beyond the end of the world'. A sundering like this also happened in the First Age, where a mother's loss of her daughter is described as the worst grief in parting in history.


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## Elthir (Sep 3, 2008)

Good point regarding Elrond's parting with Arwen (and etc.) *Nóm*. And this is part of why I think the choice was extended to Elrond's children -- even though Arwen chose a mortal death, at least she _chose_, thus giving Elrond a true choice to be counted among the Elves in the first place. 

This is also based on the idea that Arwen and her brothers were mortal by default, unless other doom be granted to them, essentially following Manwe's decree in _Quenta Silmarillion_ (unedited version, Lost Road). 

For who would really be 'free' to chose the life of the Eldar, as Elrond Halfelven did, if they knew they would 'automatically' be parted from their children even beyond death? The choice of Elros made this a non-issue with respect to his children.

Trying out a new theory 

But yes I agree Arwen died as a mortal, taking part in whatever a mortal death holds for her and Aragorn.


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## Aragorn (Sep 3, 2008)

Thank you all for your answers and thank you Nóm for your welcome. 

I already knew about the choice of Elrond and Elros sons of Eärendil but this thread allowed me to know why the parting of Arwen with Elrond was so painful to him. The answer of my question is that Arwen won’t be sundered from Aragorn but actually she won’t be able to meet her father again till the end of the world. (She had a very difficult choice)


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## Bucky (Sep 3, 2008)

Of course Arwen & Luthien became mortal & shared in Man's fate completely.


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## Alcuin (Sep 6, 2008)

In _RotK_, Appendix A, “Tale of Aragorn and Arwen,” near the end, as Arwen begs Aragorn not to choose to leave yet, he answers her,


> In sorrow we must go [noparse][die][/noparse], but not in despair. Behold! we are not bound forever to the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory.”


I think what Aragorn said was indicative of the religion of the Faithful Númenóreans. 

In _Morgoth’s Ring_, there is a long essay (in more than one version, I think) entitled “Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth,” which means “The Debate of Finrod and Andreth.” In it, Andreth the Wise, who was an aunt to Barahir, father of Beren One-Handed (Barahir’s father Bregor was Andreth’s brother), describes to Finrod a religious belief called “The Old Hope” in which Eru Himself would descend into Arda to restore Men from their Marring by Morgoth. According to Andreth, Men did not speak of it to “outsiders” (i.e., the Elves), and not all Men believed it: none of them seem to have understood it; but she indicates that it was a fairly widespread belief among the Edain in Beleriand, a belief they had held as far back as societal memory could recall, and helped bind the Edain together culturally. (If I remember correctly, C Tolkien says that in the most settled version of the backstory, the Second House of the Edain actually spoke a language that was somewhat sundered from those of the First and Third Houses.) So Aragorn’s religion might well be related to belief in “The Old Hope.”

In this respect, it is noteworthy that the rebellion of the Númenóreans was directly related to their rejection of their traditional religious beliefs: in particular, they lost faith that something better awaited them beyond the Circles of the World and sought the same unending life in Arda that the Elves found such a burden. If you recall, Arwen remarks on this rebellion in “Tale of Aragorn and Arwen,” and on how she had come to a bitter appreciation of the test that this faith required of Men.

It might be observed that, to some degree, the Elves envied Men. In their theology, their lives were tied to the existence of Arda, which though long-enduring, was not eternal. I think I remember reading remarks by either JRR Tolkien or C Tolkien that the Elves must have had some beliefs about what became of them after the end of Arda; but for Men, their whole existence (according to the Eldar) was pointed to some time after their life-passage through Arda, where they were but sojourners, and so for them the eventual termination of Arda was not of any concern.


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## Confusticated (Sep 6, 2008)

I agree about Aragorn's hope/faith being like that of the Faithful. The biggest evidence of this for me is his long life and willingness to leave Arda by accepting death. Fear of death because of lost faith was the root of the Numenoreans' fall.


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## Starflower (Sep 7, 2008)

Really good post Alcuin, have to dig out my copy of the book to read more....

I don't really have anything to add to the brilliant reasonings above, just passing time


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