# A Vala's envy ?



## Lhunithiliel (Oct 24, 2002)

> "But he(Melkor) desired rather to subdue to his will both Elves and Men, *envying the gifts with which Iluvatar promised to endow them*; and he wished himself to have subjects and servants, and to be called Lord, and to be a master over other wills."


What could a Valar *envy* the Ch.Ill. for? 
There must have been obviously some very important reason, perhaps based on some very significant difference between the Ainu (no matter how mighty and glorious they were made by Eru) and the Ch.Ill. 
What was that "special" difference between the Ainu and the Ch.Ill. and why were they so surprised of this difference - a * difference* that made Melko ENVY them?


> “Therefore when they beheld them, the more did they love them, *being things other than themselves, strange and free*, wherein they saw the mind of Iluvatar reflected anew and learned yet a little more of his wisdom, which otherwise had been hidden even from the Holy Ones”


Was it ONLY because the Ainur, who entered the World, could no more leave it, while 


> ... the sons of Men die indeed, and *leave the World*; wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers. Death is their fate, the gift of Ilúvatar unto them, which as Time wears *even the Powers shall envy.* ......... Yet it is said that they will join in the Second Music of the Ainur, whereas Ilúvatar has not revealed what he
> purposes for Elves and Valar after the World's end; and Melkor has not discovered it.


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## Elennainie (Oct 24, 2002)

Perhaps it is not a specific difference we can name which Melkor envied, but merely the fact that the children of Illuvatar _were different_ from the Ainur. They were somewhat of a mystery, something Iluvatar alone added to the music in the beginning, and therefore something which Melkor did not himself possess (physically, as a master, or mentally, as a knower) or take part in.


> "For Elves and Men are the Children of Iluvatar; and since they understood not fully that theme by which the Children entered into rthe Music, none of the Ainur dared to add anything to their fashion." -Silm.


 It is this _otherness_ that Melkor, a great being himself who perhaps felt he should not exactly encompass (like the One Being encompasses all beings), but at least be privy to in some way, envied. Also the fact that he had no part in their creation must have angered him. It was something denied him.


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## Uminya (Oct 24, 2002)

I believe that the Ainur were bound to a set predestiny that the children were not (especially Men). The Children could shape their lives as they willed, while on the other hand, the Ainur were bound.

After the "marring" of the Ainuindale by Melkor's discord, Eru showed that no matter what evil seemed to come, it would only add to the glory of Ea.


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## Confusticated (Oct 24, 2002)

The reason presented by Ciryaher seems good to me, and I can not think of why else Melkor would envy the children.
I also think that this envy of the children was only a small reason for his evil treatment of them.
He was also jealous of the love and attention the children got, and the amount of effort that the Valar put into the world for them. In his eyes he was wronged by Iluvatar and the other Valar. So why should the children come into a world and give thanks to them wrong-doers instead of Melkor, the one who was wronged. 
Then of course, he had his other reasons having to do with Iluvatar and the Valar more so than the children but I don't think that's what you're looking for with this thread. I can go on about the topic of Melkor for days so I'll stop while I can.


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## Elennainie (Oct 24, 2002)

I like Ciryaher's idea, too. 

 Umm... I was just wondering...did anyone think my idea made any sense at all? If it was total rubbish, just tell me please, because I'm still new to this forum and I want to know how to make better posts. Maybe one of my fellow guild members could give some constructive criticism?...
Thanks guys.


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## Confusticated (Oct 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Elennainie _
> *I like Ciryaher's idea, too.
> 
> Umm... I was just wondering...did anyone think my idea made any sense at all? If it was total rubbish, just tell me please, because I'm still new to this forum and I want to know how to make better posts. Maybe one of my fellow guild members could give some constructive criticism?...
> Thanks guys. *


Your reasons make sense as reason that Melkor would hate the children...I am not sure about envy though. It could be though, as you said, that he envied that they were a mystery. It's just that what Ciryaher said is also what I was thinking. You made good points.


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## gate7ole (Oct 24, 2002)

Furthermore to whatever has been said:


> and he wished himself to have subject and servants, and to be called Lord, and to be a master over other wills.


Melkor's initial intentions were dominion over the Children. But regarding the gifts that Iluvatar gave them, he realised that this was difficult to succeed. He envied them for having a free will, for determining their own lives.


> He began with the desire of Light, but when he could not possess it for himself alone, he descended through fire and wrath into a great burning, down into Darkness. And darkness he used most in his evil works upon Arda, and filled it with fear for all living things.


He couldn't accept other races having the right to possess the light and the Flame Imperishable. He also would never act like Manwe, preparing Arda for them. He envied the fact that Iluvatar had appointed them as guardians of other races.
The list is great. The downfall of Melkor was immense. His envy could have sources to every characteristic of Men and Elves.


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## Elennainie (Oct 24, 2002)

Thank you so much, Confusticated. I really do appreciate the feedback!   Oh, and btw I like your new avatar. I can't wait to get one!


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## Confusticated (Oct 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by gate7ole _
> *His envy could have sources to every characteristic of Men and Elves. *


Could be. He might even have envied their beauty or the fact that they were "good" unlike him. I still don't think that his envy of the children was one of the big reasons for his cruelity to them though. Another thing that he might have envied was the gift of death to men. 

PS: Elennainie, if you ever want someone to make you an avatar I'll be happy to.


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## gate7ole (Oct 24, 2002)

> From Morgoth's Ring:
> Morgoth would no doubt, if he had been victorious, have ultimately destroyed even his own 'creatures', such as the Orcs, when they had served his sole purpose in using them: the destruction of Elves and Men.
> _and_
> Morgoth had no 'plan': unless destruction and reduction to nil of a world in which he had only a share can be called a 'plan'.


This proves Morgoth's madness. He envied Men, Elves, Valar even his creations the Orcs. Trying to dicriminate between his hatred to the Valar and his hatred to the Children has no reason. His nihilistic instincts were his only purpose


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## Confusticated (Oct 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by gate7ole _
> *This proves Morgoth's madness. He envied Men, Elves, Valar even his creations the Orcs. Trying to dicriminate between his hatred to the Valar and his hatred to the Children has no reason. His nihilistic instincts were his only purpose *


There is a difference though, he hated the children because he hated the Valar, Iluvatar and himself. I think Melkor would have tried to destroy the children even if he did not envy them for any reason. Purely out of his hate and cruelty...which was caused by what happend before he even knew about the children.


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## Elennainie (Oct 24, 2002)

> There is a difference though, he hated the children because he hated the Valar, Iluvatar and himself.



Why did he hate himself? Was it because he was ashamed of what he sang in the Great Music, when Illuvatar reprimanded him, or was it because he knew his nature as evil, or for another reason?


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## Confusticated (Oct 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Elennainie _
> *Why did he hate himself? Was it because he was ashamed of what he sang in the Great Music, when Illuvatar reprimanded him, or was it because he knew his nature as evil, or for another reason? *


I dont remember/know if Tolkien ever stated that Melkor hated himself. That is more my interpretation of it. Melkor did become shamefull when Iluvatar put him in his place, and I think that because of that shame he 
hated himself. 


> Then the Ainur were afraid, and they did not yet comprehend the words that were said to them; and *Melkor was filled with shame, of which came secret anger.*


Some may disagree with me about him hating himself though.
There is also this...


> And he (Melkor) feigned, even to himself at first, that he desired to go thither and order all things for the good of the Children of Ilúvatar, controlling the turmoils of the heat and the cold that had come to pass through him.


Why try to fool himself? I say that is it beause he didn't fully want to be evil at that point. I think Melkor wanted to be good but could not. I'll just bet that he hated himself for that, but it is only speculation.


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## Lhunithiliel (Oct 25, 2002)

Thank you for your participation!
Most interesting posts everyone!
I'd like to say a word or two on some of your thoughts.
*Elennainie*:


> Perhaps it is not a specific difference we can name which Melkor envied, but merely the fact that *the children of Illuvatar were different from the Ainur. They were somewhat of a mystery, something Iluvatar alone added to the music in the beginning, and therefore something which Melkor did not himself possess (physically, as a master, or mentally, as a knower) or take part in*.


Two things here:
1. *different* you say - this is clear - different in WHAT WAY - I ask. How do you see this difference?
2. I think you you're very much right about the last argument!

*Ciryaher* + *Confusticated* (being of the same opinion):


> I believe that the Ainur were bound to a set predestiny that the children were not (especially Men). The Children could shape their lives as they willed, while on the other hand, the Ainur were bound.


Interesting idea and very close to what I said in my opening post.... To think of this.... Then AREN'T WE - MEN - SO MUCH PRIVILEGED (sp?)
It seems *WE ARE*. 

Look what I have found :


> From *Letter 211*
> Elves and Men were called the 'children of God', because they were, so to speak, a private addition to the Design, by the Creator, and one in which the Valar had no part. (Their 'themes' were introduced into the Music by the One, when the discords of Melkor arose.) The Valar knew that they would appear, and the great ones knew when and how (though not precisely), but they knew little of their nature, and their foresight, derived from their pre-knowledge of the Design, was imperfect or failed in the matter of the deeds of the Children. *The uncorrupted Valar*, therefore, yearned for the Children before they came and loved them afterwards, as *creatures 'other' than themselves, independent of them and their artistry, 'children' as being weaker and more ignorant than the Valar, but of equal lineage (deriving being direct from the One)*; even though under their authority as rulers of Arda. *The corrupted*, as was Melkor/Morgoth and his followers (of whom Sauron was one of the chief) saw in them the ideal material for subjects and slaves, to whom they could become masters and 'gods', *envying the Children, and secretly hating them, in proportion as they became rebels against the One (and Manwë his Lieutenant in Eä).*


....which theory is closest to that Gate7ole expressed and to which I am most willing to stick. 
*ENVY* out of *HELPLESNESS* to establish full control over the Children of Illuvatar ?!?


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## Nenya Evenstar (Oct 25, 2002)

I would say that Melkor's hatred for the children of Illuvatar was caused by a mixture of all the things said here. First of all, the elves, the first children of Illuvatar, when born were hated even in the very beginning by Melkor, for they were created by Eru. I can only imagine that Melkor would hate anything and everything that came from the hand of the One. Then, he had all the more reason to hate them because they did not love him or wish to follow him, but turned to the Valar in Aman instead and loved them. All he could do was ensnare a few unlucky elves and twist them into terrible beasts. Now the second born of Illuvatar would have also been hated by Melkor for some of the same reasons - they were conceived by the One. Yes, they were more susceptible to Melkor's lies and deceit than were the elves, but the three houses of the Edain were not fooled by his lies (until later) and were hated because they could not be controlled. However, even though Melkor could control some men, he had not made them and could not make anything like them. They were still not his creation.

I have come up with some ideas as to why Melkor was so filled with envy, helplessness, hate, fear, etc. He could not create - only twist. He probably even hated his own creations and servants for they were nothing more than twisted creatures of Illuvatar. I'm sure he hated the orcs for that reason, knowing what they once had been. Imagine what it would be like, knowing that all you did or made was only in imitation? It would be maddening. This would take care of the envy - envy that he could not make anything of his own making, but only twist; it would also take care of helplessness. He would feel completely helpless knowing that he was but a thing doing everything ultimately for the glory of Illuvatar. Hate and fear would point to the same thing. Everything done by Melkor would eventually come to be the glory and will of Illuvatar. It would be torchure to know this and yet keep trying to bring destruction instead of glory, while your kin in Valinor were happy and peaceful bringing glory as they willed and getting their way in the long run. Thus Melkor would hate even himself, for the bitterness inside of him would be deep - he could do nothing to his own satisfaction and his life was pointless, and worst of all he knew it.


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## Elenaelin (Oct 27, 2002)

Excellent point Nenya Evenstar- another personal theory on Morgoth's jealousy is the fact that all of Ea was resolved around making a world for the CHildren of Illuvater to live within. The ex-Vala's jealuosy might of sprung from the selfish fact that, despite the ages existing with Ill. before the Ea came into being, and the time spent in creating the Music, and it's themes , it was always intended for the C.O.Ill., and never really for the Vala that spent time creating it. For one so jealous of the Light of Ea that could never attain it, the thought would of been maddening.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Oct 27, 2002)

Thanks, Elenaelin.  After reading your post a question came to my mind. Was Ea really created for the sole purpose of housing the Children of Illuvatar? I do not think so! The music of the Ainur did not even contain the Children of Illuvatar until later... perhaps someone could say that that does not matter as the beginning was only preparation. However, I would think that Ea had a much bigger purpose - to praise Illuvatar and bring him glory. So, perhaps Ea was meant not only for the Children of Illuvatar but also for the Vala and the Maia who went into it as well as for everything that was or ever shall be created.


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## Lhunithiliel (Oct 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Nenya Evenstar _
> ......... Was Ea really created for the sole purpose of housing the Children of Illuvatar? I do not think so! The music of the Ainur did not even contain the Children of Illuvatar until later... perhaps someone could say that that does not matter as the beginning was only preparation. However, I would think that *Ea had a much bigger purpose - to praise Illuvatar and bring him glory.* So, perhaps Ea was meant not only for the Children of Illuvatar but also for the Vala and the Maia who went into it as well as for everything that was or ever shall be created.


AGREE! 
I am convinced that the Ainur had no idea that merrily singing and playing their music, they were creating a material world. All they knew at the moment of making the music was that they were playing some harmonical tune to please their Creator Eru. Therefore, I am equally convinced that the result of their music - the Ea, was a "project" of Illuvatar, following his own plans and visions of it. He, however needed the artistic skills of the Ainur to fulfill his "project" .... 
To me, it all looks like as if Illuvatar's Ea had been created for his glory.

Just imagine - be so powerful and have in your hands powers to create worlds and living creatures and all this > to your own satisfaction... And as you possess the "Flame Imperishable", you create but you also leave the memory of being created ... Therefore the living beings you have created will never forget who has created them and will always praise and worship their creator.... (see the "key-word _ creation_?) 

On the other hand - you don't possess the powers of creating, therefore you cannot create, which means you can't create neither a place nor sentient living beings to praise you forever as their creator... 

Well THIS I call a good reason for envy!


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## Eledhwen (Nov 9, 2002)

*The Gift of Illuvatar*

The main reason I can think of for Melkor envying the Children of Illuvatar (apart from those already mentioned) are that they could never be ultimately destroyed. Elves return to the Halls of Mandos when slain and get recycled; was not Glorfindel killed at the fall of Gondolin, only to turn up again and rescue Frodo? But Men were given a different gift - to live only a short time in Arda, then to go to a place not known. Their lives must have seemed irritatingly short to Melkor when he put them to his own use, and he must have always wondered what became of those he could not subdue and who were slain. Control freaks hate to be kept ignorant.

One other thing comes to my mind as I read through this thread: One origin offered by Tolkien for the Orcs is that they are corrupted Elves. Presumably this means that, upon death, they end up in the same Halls of Mandos as the uncorrupted Elves. Do you think any of them would get re-cycled into Middle-Earth as Elves with the corruption removed, or what? Only the originally corrupted Elves would have had any choice in the matter; those 'bred' later were (I presume) born as Orcs, and for sin to be sin, there must be both a law and a choice.


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## Mrs. Maggott (Nov 24, 2002)

There appear to be many different reasons why Morgoth hated both Elves and Men, and quite a number of them have been well described in the foregoing posts. 

But frankly, the main reason Morgoth hated the Children of Illuvatar is the _same_ reason he hated everything else, including the Valar: because Morgoth could not and would not abide, permit or tolerate _ANYTHING_ existing but himself. In this way, he was very much akin to his one-time ally, Ungoliant - who simply could not stand the existence of anything but itself. Yes, the two cooperated for their mutual benefit, but sooner or later, two such evil beings must turn against and attempt to destroy the other.

There is an old saying that two dragons cannot exist in the same place, even if they are male and female. They are like the preying mantis, the most dangerous and ferocious of all insects. Even mating results in the death of the male; only the female survives.

In the third book of his so-called "science fiction" trilogy, "That Hideous Strength", C. S. Lewis presents his readers with a group of very evil beings who work together under the "bent one" and his demons. But even as they scheme to bring about the total domination of evil, they openly acknowledge even as they eat and drink together, that in the end, only _ONE_ will survive. The reign of Satan will not be as has been so often pictured, the Devil at the "top" with all his demons and then the damned under him. No, evil does not form even wicked alliances; for the truly evil, in the end there can be only one...and nothing else but it and the darkness. 

That is what Morgoth wanted and that is why he hated everything and everyone that wasn't "him".


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## Lhunithiliel (Apr 23, 2004)

I don't believe that everything has been said on this topic!


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