# Sauron and the Orcs of the Misty mountains



## Ithrynluin (May 11, 2003)

How much (if any) control did Sauron have over the orcs of the Misty Mountains?

Is there any clear indication either way in any of the published works?

Anything goes, so let's hear it!


----------



## EL GALLO (May 11, 2003)

It is said that Sauron started to populate Moria with his creatures(I don't have a quote in English).


----------



## Ithrynluin (May 11, 2003)

You are quite right. This is the quote you are referring to, from the Appendix to the LOTR:



> c. 2480 Orcs begin to make secret strongholds in the Misty Mountains so as to bar all the passes into Eriador. Sauron begins to people Moria with his creatures.



But this refers only to Moria. Is it safe to simply assume that Sauron held sway over all the Orcs of the Misty mountains (e.g. The ones who assailed Bilbo & co. in the Hobbit)?

Wouldn't these Orcs begin to lust for independence and being 'their own masters' since Sauron was so far away? They don't strike me as particularly loyal creatures, if you take my meaning. Just wondering.


----------



## BlackCaptain (May 11, 2003)

Well I remember that the 'maggots' from the Misty's wern't in league with Sauron during the Uruk-Hai capture of Merry and Pippin. But that probly doesnt help much


----------



## YayGollum (May 12, 2003)

I would love to think that the orcses weren't paying attention to Sauron. It looks like it in The Hobbit since there's that Great Goblin dude. oh well. Sauron was killed by Gollum. Yay for the orcses getting to have fun with being evil and not get ordered to have fun with being evil!


----------



## Ithrynluin (May 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by YayGollum _
> *It looks like it in The Hobbit since there's that Great Goblin dude. *



Just because the Great Goblin was 'king' doesn't prove that Sauron was (not) in charge. It just proves that there was hierarchy among the Goblins - but then again, that can be found with all the peoples of ME.


----------



## YayGollum (May 12, 2003)

Sure. But still. They were nowhere near Sauron. Sauron had all kinds of minions in Mirkwood. If he was telling those guys what to do, why were they still doing nothing for him in the Misty Mountains? I wouldn't be surprised that even if he did know anything or care anything for those orcs, he'd just leave them alone and think of them as another Shelob type thing, guarding some little pass.


----------



## Beleg (May 13, 2003)

Perhaps they had sworn oaths to Sauron? Perhaps they were bound by Sauron's fear? Sauron always does seemed to have one or two of his Luietenants at Dor-Guldor, perhaps they were forced to help Sauron due to the fear of the RingWraiths? 
Perhaps Sauron could have offered them Elven and Mannish Madians and Realms if they supported him, sort of seduced them.


> But this refers only to Moria. Is it safe to simply assume that Sauron held sway over all the Orcs of the Misty mountains (e.g. The ones who assailed Bilbo & co. in the Hobbit)?



What I think is that Sauron didn't have direct contact with the different affrays and groups scattered throughout Misty Mountains. he committed their charage to one of his Ringwraiths who then further controlled the moments of the Orcs. Perhaps the King of Gundabad paid homage to Sauron or was an allie of his. But we know that Orcs are sort of cunning creatures. They would see that it would be benificial for them if they join forces with Sauron to get rid of these Men, Dwarves, and Elves. Perhaps an alliance because it would be benificial for both the parties.


----------



## FrankSinatra (May 14, 2003)

*Well*

I dont think Tolkien had quite grasped the full concept of Sauron or his control in 'The Hobbit', hence the goblins from that book seem to be acting independently.

I look at it as a kind of 'Al Quaeda' working for Saddam or Bin Laden, depending on your view.


----------



## baragund (May 14, 2003)

I like Frank's Al Qaeda comparison. It seems that the Misty Mountain orcs had some degree of independence but maybe acted in alliance with or under the guidance of Sauron for major campaigns. 

I recall a passage in "The Tower of Cirith Ungol" where Shagrat and Gorbag were talking about going off somewhere and setting up their own little territory "like in the good old days". This tells me that when there are no major wars going on, Sauron would let his orcs go off and do their own thing, at least to a point.


----------



## FrankSinatra (May 14, 2003)

*Well*

I wonder, did the orcs get paid?

Or did they take their profit from looting and eating of victims/opponents.


----------



## YayGollum (May 14, 2003)

Got it. This baragund person seems to know what's what. Anyways, answers to questions ---> 

1. Depends. Seems to be a lot in Moria. Not as much but still some in the northern Misty Mountains.

2. Nope. Guess not.


----------



## baragund (May 14, 2003)

Egads!! I actually said something Yay agrees with!! What is the world coming to? Next thing you know, I'll be pasting "President Gollum in 2004" bumper stickers on my car!


----------



## YayGollum (May 15, 2003)

Ack! Do I really seem that disagreeable? Everyone always acts surprised when I agree with them! Argh! *thinks for about two seconds* Okay. Yes. I am disagreeable. It's fun to be original, though. Silly me. Good thing I don't send myself to sleep by thinking up crazy theories about orcses, though, or I would have something crazy to say in here. *runs away*


----------

