# New series will be an abomination



## Tuor Cassidy (Sep 1, 2022)

Hi I am a new member. My name is Christopher. I am from Boston, MA. Not to be a downer but this upcoming show is an insult to JRR. We ALL know that he would strongly disapprove as the spirit of his writing will NOT be exorcised and the articles I've read on the series directly say that the director and actors are proud that the show is vastly different from the writing. THEN DO NOT MAKE AN ADAPTATION THAT DOES NOT HONOR THE SPIRIT OF THE ART ITSELF!

This is the Tolkien Forum is it not? I came here for that purpose. Not to celebrate the newest show his great grandchildren have sold the rights to! I bet we have read more Tolkien than they have! Tolkien was a wonderful writer and academic, not a TV producer. Lets celebrate the man and his gifts to us! NOT those who choose to cash in on his creations with any intention on honoring them!


----------



## Ent (Sep 1, 2022)

[email protected] said:


> Hi I am a new member. My name is Christopher. I am from Boston, MA. Not to be a downer but this upcoming show is an insult to JRR. We ALL know that he would strongly disapprove as the spirit of his writing will NOT be exorcised and the articles I've read on the series directly say that the director and actors are proud that the show is vastly different from the writing. THEN DO NOT MAKE AN ADAPTATION THAT DOES NOT HONOR THE SPIRIT OF THE ART ITSELF!
> 
> This is the Tolkien Forum is it not? I came here for that purpose. Not to celebrate the newest bastard show his great grandchildren have sold the rights to! I bet we have read more Tolkien than they have! Tolkien was a wonderful writer and academic, not a TV producer. Lets celebrate the man and his gifts to us! NOT those who choose to cash in on his creations with any intention on honoring them!



My dear Christopher Cassidy, we welcome you aboard.
You will find that we here all have Opinions. And we are more than willing to discuss them.
We do not, however, insist that 'all agree with our opinion.'
I suspect we DO all agree that there are going to be many things in the upcoming RoP that are not aligned with Tolkien's work.
Only Tolkien's work is Tolkien's work. (Not really even Christophers, or the more recent Mr. Hostetters, are "entirely" aligned with Tolkien's work.)

However, we here do our best to remain civil and thoughtful in our discussions.
There may well be much to enjoy in the upcoming ROP, as there was in JP's works on the Hobbit and LoTR.

The cinematography, the costuming, the acting, the interplay of the characters, the character building and presentation, the quality of the written lines, the VERBAL expression of them as well as the PHYSICAL expression of them, the staging, the props, etc. ad infinitum.

The entire internet is full of the vitriolic 'hatred' of the series, based on just one principle... "does it line up with JRRT's work exactly."
The answer to which is.... 'of course not.'
That isn't and wasn't its intent. Yet it is what it is, and it will never be anything other than what it is.

One has the option of choosing hating, or liking, what was done. Or something in between.

This does not distract from this (or any other) sites love of Tolkien and his work, NOR of the same toward that which is done for RoP.

We should take things as they ARE, and determine our feelings about them. Not press them into a mold which they are NOT, nor are they intended to be.

The arguments rampaging across the world today requiring us to either 'hate' it or be outcast from being "true Tolkienists" continue ad nauseum.

Most of us reject such arguments, being able to separate apples from oranges, while still eating bananas into the bargain.

So please feel free to be here for the purpose of being a Tolkien lover.

And yet... and yet.... one hopes there is an ability to hold thoughtful discussions of things on many levels regarding what is coming, and not just stand steadfast that what could be classified as 'the purist model' is the only viewpoint to look from, for one's determination.

This does not mean anyone changes their minds about anything. It just means we tend to avoid spreading negativity and hate, rather than discussion.

Keep in mind - the very creating of film is also art.

Thus says the Enting at least.
There are some here who disagree.


----------



## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 1, 2022)

Superbly well-said. My thoughts exactly, Enting.


----------



## Tuor Cassidy (Sep 1, 2022)

Thank you for your Welcoming Enting! I do not mean to be the tidal wave of Numenor today but my heart does sink at he thought of art being misrepresented. We will have to agree to disagree as my heart tells me to stand on my soapbox to stand up for the dear professor. You mention freedom of opinion. Well, mine is allowed to he heard and i have been completely civil, unless you work for the marketing department of Amazon, trust me, they will do ok despite my humble opinions. 

You mention CRR and Mr. Hostetter. They are not adapting or even creating anything, they are editors of exisiting writings. And lets be honest Mr. Hostetter is a NASA scientist who may enjoy the metaphyshical math of JRR as he tried to make sense of creation in terms of aging, time and biology. That is of little interest to me as i enjoy the narratives of Tolkien. I read his book, it was tough, to say the least but it was just publishing unpublished material for those who may like that sort of expose. 

As you know, Christopher was his literary executor and was even part of the map making withing the LOTR, his History of Middle Earth was a series of textbooks explaining the making and arranging of the material over time is an invaluable resource to help guide you through the mastery itself and see it's evolution. To compare that with Peter Jackson on whoever the hack is on this new show, in my opinion, is how you say,apples to oranges?

I am not ignorant and unwilling to open my mind to interpretations but when i read articles distinctly stating that therre is little knowledge of the work itself and it is simply a story taking place within an time that was unwritten about by JRR for the most part, that allows for far too many liberties to be taken. 

If there were a show to come about about the Sillmarillion or a story therein, and it was adapted by someone who actually read the book, then Im there with my popcorn. I have sen posts on this site already that are based off of "internet data" maybe people should try reading the work as it was intended. But I am just one of many "purists" which i resent as i see myself as loyal fan of the author, not the themepark his family has created. 

I like bananas too but not when they are left out too long and are unedible!


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 1, 2022)

I'll wait until I actually see it, to judge.


----------



## Ent (Sep 1, 2022)

[email protected] said:


> Thank you for your Welcoming Enting! I do not mean to be the tidal wave of Numenor today but my heart does sink at he thought of art being misrepresented. We will have to agree to disagree as my heart tells me to stand on my soapbox to stand up for the dear professor. You mention freedom of opinion. Well, mine is allowed to he heard and i have been completely civil, unless you work for the marketing department of Amazon, trust me, they will do ok despite my humble opinions.
> 
> You mention CRR and Mr. Hostetter. They are not adapting or even creating anything, they are editors of exisiting writings. And lets be honest Mr. Hostetter is a NASA scientist who may enjoy the metaphyshical math of JRR as he tried to make sense of creation in terms of aging, time and biology. That is of little interest to me as i enjoy the narratives of Tolkien. I read his book, it was tough, to say the least but it was just publishing unpublished material for those who may like that sort of expose.
> 
> ...



Thank you for your opinion.
To respond is almost to feed fuel to a potential fire here, but you make a couple excellent points. The most pertinent one being:
"...therre is little knowledge of the work itself and it is simply a story taking place within an time that was unwritten about by JRR for the most part."

If the time period is (_largely_) unwritten about by JRRT, then there can be nothing but creation. Thus, there is no comparative, and no reason to hate something based on something that Tolkien did not see fit to (or have time to) address. Naturally, changes in existing characters etc. are going to be difficult for some...but a new canvas is, by and large, being painted.

In any event, what I am trying to say is simply there is an approach to things, and then there is an approach to things, and not all approaches are equal, nor do they seek to deliver the same results.

I sensed certain "instigatory" underpinnings to your approach... and can only hope that your coming here to celebrate Tolkien and his works does not become a thorn in the side of others, who are here to learn, to enjoy, to interact, to discuss, and to grow... rather than to "bicker" over certain trivialities from an intractable standpoint.

Had I not seen many 'beginnings' similar to yours that went very awry, in my old age I would not be so concerned.
We will let the future tell the tale.

I am VERY glad you like bananas. The question of their edibility in one condition or another is also, frankly, a matter of opinion. 

I look forward to what you can add to our learning of Tolkien and his lore here on TTF.


----------



## Ealdwyn (Sep 1, 2022)

[email protected] said:


> If there were a show to come about about the Sillmarillion or a story therein, and it was adapted by someone who actually read the book, then Im there with my popcorn.


They don't have the rights to the Silmarillion, so I'm afraid you'll have a long wait for your popcorn


----------



## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 1, 2022)

Well-said again. You are always so inspirational with your words, Enting.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 1, 2022)

I'll probably have some popcorn while watching Buffy the Vampire Killer tonight. 

"Elderly" bananas make the best banana bread, BTW.


----------



## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 1, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> "Elderly" bananas make the best banana bread, BTW.


True, to a point. A year-old banana is off the table.


----------



## Ent (Sep 1, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> True, to a point. A year-old banana is off the table.






Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I'll probably have some popcorn while watching Buffy the Vampire Killer tonight.
> 
> "Elderly" bananas make the best banana bread, BTW.



Both true. And green bananas make really great.... well... green bananas.
Yet here's the thing...
None of them exist in a vacuum. They are totally interdependent. 
There is much to learn from nature.


----------



## Ealdwyn (Sep 1, 2022)

mmmmm..... banana bread 😋


----------



## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 1, 2022)

Banana bread is tasty. As are banana-chips.


----------



## Ealdwyn (Sep 1, 2022)

Fun fact: in Sweden banana is popular on pizza


----------



## Erestor Arcamen (Sep 1, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> Fun fact: in Sweden banana is popular on pizza


That reminds me of Doug when it was on Nickelodeon, there was an episode where they made banana pizza


----------



## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 1, 2022)

This belongs in the Trivia thread most likely, but glad am I to see it regardless.


----------



## Tuor Cassidy (Sep 1, 2022)

NO need to worry about fueling a fire. I am simply passionate about Tolkien's work. I am allowed to be skeptical, I am also allowed to NOT watch the series. As you are entitled to watch and enjoy, who am i to take that from anyone. That is not my intention here today. 

You mention that since there is lack of writing that there will in place be "creation." I do not disagree in large part but the small part in which i do, is the reason for my Angbandian fire today. 

I do NOT need any creation that is not from JRR himself, when it concerns Middle Earth, Tol Eressea or Aman. If you want to create a show about elves and dwarves then you can do so as a director and or producer. JRR did not copyright the existance of elves or Dwarves (maybe the spelling and the fact he hated them being compared to Elfs of the North Pole) so that being said, the producers should create their own show. write their own story. 

But if you want to create a story within the legendarium then one must ethically do it within the exisiting written narratives. The fact that they are creating a show that is called The Rings of Power but not willing to honor the essance of the writing, then it is clearly an entity trying to capitalize upon a name to attract viewers. yes, they purchased the rights, and my ire should be directed to those that sold them without consideration, at least from what i read. 

Peter Jackson left out Tom Bombadill, that has been regarded as blasphemy, of which i also agree, one can only more surmise that this new adaptation will be far more removed and that, i feel it should just be it's own story, with its stnning imagery. George Martin wrote his own story, ( a huge fan of Tolkien) but knew better than to touch Tolkiens work. if the writing is strong it can stand on its own, but they are clearly using the name as a money grab and that i just cannot accept. 

I am sorry if my views are negative. I cant wait to discuss Mr. Tolkiens work! Thank you for discussing and listening to me today.....

Am i glad everyone is a banana fan!

CMC


----------



## Ent (Sep 1, 2022)

[email protected] said:


> NO need to worry about fueling a fire. I am simply passionate about Tolkien's work. I am allowed to be skeptical, I am also allowed to NOT watch the series. As you are entitled to watch and enjoy, who am i to take that from anyone. That is not my intention here today.
> 
> You mention that since there is lack of writing that there will in place be "creation." I do not disagree in large part but the small part in which i do, is the reason for my Angbandian fire today.
> 
> ...



*This is an extremely pleasant and welcome reply.*
You ARE indeed entitled to your skepticism, and to watch or not watch as you choose... as well as your passion..!!!
We love it..!

I think it's not your views that are negative. Countless people hold them.
'twas just the approach that concerned this Enting.

I too have 2 _*truly*_ heartfealt discrepancies and dissatisfactions with PJ's work... Bombadil is one, and the usurping of Glorfindal's role is another. 
(there are many more, though not quite as abhorrent to me.)

That said, things are what they are. 

I'm thankful we can walk forward together, as we are all stronger united than divided.


----------



## Ent (Sep 1, 2022)

[email protected] said:


> my Angbandian fire


By the way.... I REALLY like this phrase.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 1, 2022)

You'll find varied points of view here, optimistic, pessimistic, and agnostic, in multiple threads. In fact, I'd recommend reading through them.


----------



## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 1, 2022)

That you will, and very many vocal opinions.


----------



## Halasían (Sep 1, 2022)

[email protected] said:


> Hi I am a new member. My name is Christopher. I am from Boston, MA. Not to be a downer but this upcoming show is an insult to JRR. We ALL know that he would strongly disapprove as the spirit of his writing will NOT be exorcised and the articles I've read on the series directly say that the director and actors are proud that the show is vastly different from the writing. THEN DO NOT MAKE AN ADAPTATION THAT DOES NOT HONOR THE SPIRIT OF THE ART ITSELF!
> 
> This is the Tolkien Forum is it not? I came here for that purpose. Not to celebrate the newest show his great grandchildren have sold the rights to! I bet we have read more Tolkien than they have! Tolkien was a wonderful writer and academic, not a TV producer. Lets celebrate the man and his gifts to us! NOT those who choose to cash in on his creations with any intention on honoring them!


 🤣🤣😆😂😅😌
Being that TORc is now charging $4.99 a month to just _participate_ on their site, you came to the next-best place for such increasingly irrelevant personal rantings about Rings of Power. Have fun!
😉


----------



## Olorgando (Sep 1, 2022)

Dear Christopher (I have a Hobbit-like tendency to shorten names, so I might slip down to cc20 ...), I'd like to paraphrase Mark Twain here (at least he is *supposed* to have said it - he kind of "gets blamed" for almost every saying in the US, as Johann Wolfgang von Goethe does here in Germany):

"Prediction is a risky business - especially about the future."

"Abomination" as a term for a film is seriously overstated - even *after* having viewed it. I except the propaganda filth produced by Hitler's and Stalin's lackeys. and the all-too-numerous wannabe pocket-lookalikes since the demise of these two monsters.

The last films I watched in a movie cinema were the three LoTR films by Peter Jackson. After my first watching of "Fellowship" in early January 2002, I watched it a second time, as I could hardly remember what happened in the film after the first viewing, as I had mentally compiled what felt like a mile-long list of "wrong!", "never happened", and several other more "colorful" thoughts that definitely would contradict site rules.

So, as of the second film theater viewing of FoTR to the end of PJ's LoTR trilogy, it was "this is a generic fantasy film with some Middle-earth flavor". Not that I could suppress my "rolleyes" reaction to the more egregious mutilations (Faramir ...), but there still was much to be enjoyed. I especially doff my cap to all involved at Weta, Workshop and Digital. They can't be blamed for flawed scripting - nor, for that matter, can any of the actresses or actors.

With TH, it was clear to me from the beginning that to concoct a "blockbuster trilogy" from that book, smaller than any volume of LoTR, would involve a huge amount of padding. I skipped watching this trilogy in the cinema, my wife and I watched the cinematic DVDs at home. I own all six films in the cinematic as well as the Extended Edition versions. For TH, the additional film footage is a case for the dustbin, but the "Appendices" sections of the EEs are definitely watchable - at least they were for me. And for the TH trilogy, I again unreservedly doff the cap to "the Wetas".

Amazon? I've now read repeatedly that Jeff Bezos wanted his own "Game of Thrones". Bad start from the viewpoint of someone whose favorite Muppets are Statler and Waldorf ...

Then I did watch a few of the early teasers released by Amazon, and very ill-advised "influencer" clips, and maybe a handful of commentaries - all early. I have since mainly ignored the whole "Amazon discussion", especially after a few trolls with agendas having nothing in the least with JRRT's middle-earth started polluting this site with their vitriol. I didn't particularly enjoy my Statler and Waldorf mutating into something more closely resembling Hugh Jackman's character "Wolverine" from Marvel - plus some other undefined character with even more deficient social skills! - in some of my most snarling comments here.

It was a time when the moderators here - the most "visible" are Erestor Arcamen, a site veteran of almost 18 years, though barely "come of age" in Hobbit terms, and Squint-eyed Southerner, "only" a site veteran of almost four-and-a-half years but ... how do I put it ... born before LoTR was published - must have been sweating blood sweat and tears trying to catch up with - and all too often delete - toxic posts.

RoP's allowed sources (not sure if this is entirely clear) are the Appendices to LoTR. Those dealing with the Second Age may be two or three dozen pages in my hardcover 2002 edition. TH in my paperback version is a bit under 300 pages. The gaps in detail loom.

Where Amazon should tread carefully is with characters known from PJ's films (and never mind known to Middle-earth book nerds like me who are a large part of the current active membership of TTF). With Elrond, they may have gotten the concept of a "young Elf" disastrously wrong, from comments by people allowed a film theater preview of the first two episodes of season 1.

As in the PJ-Weta constellation, I would strongly oppose any downplaying of the efforts of animators - or backgrounders! - due to script issues. Of which there can be far fewer than even in PJ's TH.

One reason that "The Silmarillion" as published / edited by Christopher Tolkien has been found difficult was "no Hobbits???"
Seems they may have been noticed (but still not recorded?) in RoP ...

_*sigh*_


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 1, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> how do I put it


Put it in the First Age. 😄


----------



## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 1, 2022)

Well-said, Squint.


----------



## Olorgando (Sep 1, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Put it in the First Age. 😄


I was *trying* to be nice to you (and had a devil of a time finding the microscopic part of my quote you quoted in my blather ...  )


----------



## Barrow Wight (Sep 1, 2022)

[email protected] said:


> NO need to worry about fueling a fire. I am simply passionate about Tolkien's work. I am allowed to be skeptical, I am also allowed to NOT watch the series. As you are entitled to watch and enjoy, who am i to take that from anyone. That is not my intention here today.
> 
> You mention that since there is lack of writing that there will in place be "creation." I do not disagree in large part but the small part in which i do, is the reason for my Angbandian fire today.
> 
> ...


We won't really know if ROP is "ethically" done within the written narratives until it's been aired. I, too, am skeptical, but I will withhold judgment until I see what has been produced. In the case of a Second Age story, there is a LOT of room to maneuver "within the existing written narratives," so long as they don't have characters that have been written about doing things that are inconsistent with the writings. And, as an aside, there were far more egregious problems with PJackson's movies than leaving out Tom Bombadil . . . .


----------



## Crowfly (Sep 1, 2022)

Just watched the first episode. I am very disappointed. I am certain many LOTR fans will love it. It’s hard to imagine that a large percentage of Tolkien “readers” will.


----------



## Ugluk (Sep 2, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I'll probably have some popcorn while watching Buffy the Vampire Killer tonight.
> 
> "Elderly" bananas make the best banana bread, BTW.


No bananas should be used to make banana bread!!!!


----------



## Ealdwyn (Sep 2, 2022)

Ugluk said:


> No bananas should be used to make banana bread!!!!


Controversial!


----------



## Tuor Cassidy (Sep 2, 2022)

I did come in rather hot yesterday. I can only imagine how that was taken. My apologies, and in my rant I mispelled Bombadil (w/Bombadill) and when referring to Christopher Tolkien, I put CRR, when it is actually CRT, I just could not type fast enough yesterday! Feanorian fire may be more apt in describing my feelings!

My feelings will remain in terms of adapataions of the Professors creation but good to know there are those who understand the fire and yet still try hand out a cool glass of _Limpe_

Thank you for your patience everyone!

CMC


----------



## Tuor Cassidy (Sep 2, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> Dear Christopher (I have a Hobbit-like tendency to shorten names, so I might slip down to cc20 ...), I'd like to paraphrase Mark Twain here (at least he is *supposed* to have said it - he kind of "gets blamed" for almost every saying in the US, as Johann Wolfgang von Goethe does here in Germany):
> 
> "Prediction is a risky business - especially about the future."
> 
> ...


Olorgando,
Thank you for your reply and feedback. I welcome all discussions. I am here to support the legendarium of Tolkien. I myself, was a fan of the movies as i was a teenager when they first came out. After that I started reading the work and i saw the errors and liberties taken by PJ, who honestly, I feel tried to honor the books but ultimately failed. 

_Enting_ mentioned Glorfindel was "usurped" in the rescue of Frodo, to which i agree! Bombadil, was another mysterious figure, who could have had a great scene in the House of Bombadil and he who also saves the hobbits from death. They had 3, 2+ hour movies to work with and they cut out key elements. NOT even the mind battle between Gandalf and Saruman on the steps of Orthanc after the Ents flooded it, no mention of Arwen's two brothers who also were significant and like brothers to Aragorn. Also, Faramir, of whom you seem to agree..... One of Tolkiens favorite unforeseen heroes, was barley involved but to be burned alive.

And in the Hobbit, well then he goes to far.... creating a character and an Elf-Dwarf romance out of thin air... I must have missed that chapter!

My point, overall, is this..... In most places, the only thing people mention when referring to Tolkien, is the movies, This site seems to have many who have read the works beyond simply LOTR and The Hobbit, and for that I am very grateful! I am hopeful for further discussions and someday a seachange of thought in terms of the popular opinion. That the magic lies within the words. The books contain the true magic, the real imagination of JRRT and i feel so much is being glossed over and rewritten. I will not fault some artist or set designer as we all need to make a living and do what we love if possible. I agree that the scenery is amazing but you can do that with any fantasy styled story!

But why is it so hard to simply adapt from what was written. Its right there for you as a writer, just do it right and all the fans will love you for it and those who haven't read the books would not know better either way. They will STILL be entertained!

The _Rings of Power _may not be part of The Silmarillion proper but it is the connecting story from the _downfall to the Third Age _ and is techinically within the book of the published Silmarillion, so even though the rights are not sold for the Silmarillion, the story should honor the written chapter _*Of The Rings of Power*_ _*and the Third age *_*- "in which these tales come to their end"* Which brings us to rise of hobbit lore and the third age.

And I also suggest to anyone who may not have read _The Letters of JRRT,_ they should really try to! Its a fabulous insight to his mind in terms of his creations and how he wanted them presented. He went through many pains to create and publish the art which was so painstakenly done that it feels as though it is an actual history, people would write to him looking for answers as if they were real events and he felt obliged to answer them as accurately as he could and would even rethink his writing if he saw any conflictions, as we seen in his writings from the 1950's post LOTR published.

That is why the work is so different and masterful and it is a blessing that we have it today. CRT also deserves so much credit, in my opinion, because without him we would have not even have The Silmarillion and all JRRT's wealth of unpublished writings! So i feel its our duty to "stick to the script" and if you cant, then just make up your own story if you dont like his.

I am simply frustrated the movies get more praise than the books for the most part. I probably will never be satisifed in that arena, so i came here hoping for a sanctuary from the madness of the mainstream. I actually think the first age is the most interesting age and the stories therin are what i was looking for in terms of fantasy lore all my life!

Sorry for the long retort. Thanks to all that took the time to read it! Abomination may be too strong a word for a TV show. For that adjective I will concede!

CMC


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 2, 2022)

Arguments between FADs and NPWs have been going on for decades here -- since the original films debuted, in fact. I usually suggest this, as a place to start, for anyone interested:









My God, It Was Horrible!


All you doomsayers were right. It was absolutely horrible. I was crying in the theater. I wanted to walk out, but I didn't b/c my friends were there! All the party is screwed up, out of order, shortened. The trip to Bree was in 45 minutes or so...not 1.30 like it should've been. IT...




www.thetolkienforum.com




You can also search for Parts II and III, BTW.

On the other hand, if you're really as interested in the books as you say, there are also decades of discussion about them here. 🙂


----------



## Erestor Arcamen (Sep 2, 2022)

Surprisingly, nothing of the series seems to spit on Tolkien's grave, or whatever the naysayers we're worried about....shocked I tell you


[email protected] said:


> Thank you for your reply and feedback. I welcome all discussions. I am here to support the legendarium of Tolkien. I myself, was a fan of the movies as i was a teenager when they first came out. After that I started reading the work and i saw the errors and liberties taken by PJ, who honestly, I feel tried to honor the books but ultimately failed.


This describes how I found Tolkien, almost exactly as well. Though I knew the movies wouldn't be exactly like the books, what movie is? But I agree with you I wish they could adapt more closely to the original material. 

I personally am coming to the ROP series seeing it as a standalone series that uses names from Tolkien and is heavily influenced by Tolkien but telling its own story, which is non-canon. So far, that seems to be the case and I really enjoyed the first two episodes. I respect your and anyone else's opinion if you don't like the show, that's what makes TTF great. We try to accept everyone.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 2, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> the naysayers


You clearly haven't checked YouTube today. 😅


----------



## Barrow Wight (Sep 2, 2022)

I doubt anyone here would give any of the movies (or cartoons) more praise than the corresponding books! Cool CGI/special effects alone do not a good movie make . . . .


----------



## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 2, 2022)

True. Cinematography advances constantly, but nothing beats good literature.


----------



## Erestor Arcamen (Sep 2, 2022)

Barrow Wight said:


> I doubt anyone here would give any of the movies (or cartoons) more praise than the corresponding books! Cool CGI/special effects alone do not a good movie make . . . .


Yup, most of us who like the movies like them for being separate. non-canon movies that are influenced by and based on Tolkien's books with PJ's own interpretations, to put it nicely


----------



## Tuor Cassidy (Sep 2, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Arguments between FADs and NPWs have been going on for decades here -- since the original films debuted, in fact. I usually suggest this, as a place to start, for anyone interested:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I do not know what a FAD or a NPW is?


Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Arguments between FADs and NPWs have been going on for decades here -- since the original films debuted, in fact. I usually suggest this, as a place to start, for anyone interested:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am sorry, what does a FAD or NPW stand for? Not sure if I am a FAD or NPW?


----------



## Ent (Sep 2, 2022)

[email protected] said:


> I am simply frustrated the movies get more praise than the books



Hello Christopher. Nice to see you aboard again..!!!!!!

Yes, there are many - or maybe MANY - here that are very well versed in the Tolkien Lore.
And the primary objective here does seem to be the continued exposure, exploration, explanation, and enjoyment of that Lore along with the enrichment that comes from it.

Don't worry about your 'fire' yesterday. My response to it was likely as misplaced as was your "blasting in on the breath of a dragon." 

Clearly at the bottom line, we were both coming from the same place.
You don't want the Lore to be ignored or perverted.
Neither do I. I too am here primarily if not ONLY to learn the Lore. 
Thus as much fire as we both contain within us for Tolkien rather than Other, yet we must be cautious not to let our fires actually deter us from that very same objective.

So... we both learn restraint. 

There's a lot of fun here too... some of which is at best tangentially related to Tolkien, and some of which is... well... not. 
But nowhere have I seen as dedicated a site as this one, to understanding Tolkien and what he wrote.

I am 70 years old. I had to delay my study for almost 50 years, in spite of my desires. Now is at last the time - started very recently. (Frankly, just VERY shortly before I became a member here.)

I've left every other site i joined, even The Tolkien Society's own... due to the lack of depth and span of negativity they contained - and man's incessant demand to be "right" at the expense of others, in spite of being wrong.

Which brings me back to the piece of your post I quoted at the start here.

Sadly, we need to step back to "what is man" and "how does he behave."
Simply said: man likes to be spoon-fed.
Man wants to be told what he should think.
Man does not want to think any more.
Man does not want to work for what he knows, or gets.
Thus - to watch a movie is his preference.
Reading a book is WORK. And it requires that he be engaged.

He can sit in his moronic zombie state quite well thank you, watch a movie, absorb less than a quarter of it, and go out spewing things that aren't even consistent with the movie he just watched. Yet he is quite happy.

Why?

Because he has been spoon-fed, done no work, and has no intention to do otherwise.

So going back to "the movies get more praise than the books" -
Of course they do.

The books were suited to "man" of the days in which they were written. (And there is a declining element in the current day that has not lost all that those days were.)

The movies are suited to "man" of today. Both from the maker's (earner's) perspectives, and from the observers' perspectives.

Which is why I come back to "I am thankful for every one that watches any one of the movies, and as a result reaches out to find out more." 
They are a rare breed indeed, and becoming rarer with each year that passes.

May we be welcoming, inviting, cordial and understanding as we work to fold them in and educate them, seeing them as a small glimmer of hope for this humanity that is on a decreasing spiral to mindlessness.

Other than that, I have no concerns for or worry about mankind at all.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 2, 2022)

It may be unique to TTF.
FAD: Fan of the Adaptations
NPW: Nit Picking Weenie

You can figure out which you are from that, I imagine. 😄


----------



## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 2, 2022)

Those are probably the most confusing acronyms, but also my favorite!


----------



## Tuor Cassidy (Sep 2, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> Hello Christopher. Nice to see you aboard again..!!!!!!
> 
> Yes, there are many - or maybe MANY - here that are very well versed in the Tolkien Lore.
> And the primary objective here does seem to be the continued exposure, exploration, explanation, and enjoyment of that Lore along with the enrichment that comes from it.
> ...


Thank you Enting. I agree with you. You have been most welcoming to me and my frustrations.


----------



## Tuor Cassidy (Sep 2, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> Surprisingly, nothing of the series seems to spit on Tolkien's grave, or whatever the naysayers we're worried about....shocked I tell you
> 
> This describes how I found Tolkien, almost exactly as well. Though I knew the movies wouldn't be exactly like the books, what movie is? But I agree with you I wish they could adapt more closely to the original material.
> 
> I personally am coming to the ROP series seeing it as a standalone series that uses names from Tolkien and is heavily influenced by Tolkien but telling its own story, which is non-canon. So far, that seems to be the case and I really enjoyed the first two episodes. I respect your and anyone else's opinion if you don't like the show, that's what makes TTF gre





Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> It may be unique to TTF.
> FAD: Fan of the Adaptations
> NPW: Nit Picking Weenie
> 
> You can figure out which you are from that, I imagine. 😄


And which may you be Southerner?


----------



## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 2, 2022)

Normally I would guess him an NPW, but I am not positive actually... Should be interesting to see his answer.


----------



## Erestor Arcamen (Sep 2, 2022)

I'd say I'm a hybrid of both. I like the adaptations as separate movies but when I'm in book mode, I will nitpick them for things. For example, I hate that the elves showed up at Helm's Deep in TTT for one big obvious example.


----------



## ZehnWaters (Sep 2, 2022)

[email protected] said:


> I did come in rather hot yesterday. I can only imagine how that was taken. My apologies, and in my rant I mispelled Bombadil (w/Bombadill) and when referring to Christopher Tolkien, I put CRR, when it is actually CRT, I just could not type fast enough yesterday! Feanorian fire may be more apt in describing my feelings!
> 
> My feelings will remain in terms of adapataions of the Professors creation but good to know there are those who understand the fire and yet still try hand out a cool glass of _Limpe_
> 
> ...


We understand. I've found it best to either avoid discussion of things I dislike all-together or provide my very best, well-thought-out arguments and leave it there.


----------



## ZehnWaters (Sep 2, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> I'd say I'm a hybrid of both. I like the adaptations as separate movies but when I'm in book mode, I will nitpick them for things. For example, I hate that the elves showed up at Helm's Deep in TTT for one big obvious example.


It's ironic, I've no issues with Tauriel (and I even like her) but I absolutely can't stand what's been done with RoP.


----------



## Tuor Cassidy (Sep 2, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> We understand. I've found it best to either avoid discussion of things I dislike all-together or provide my very best, well-thought-out arguments and leave it there.


Well said. I had thought I laid out my argument with thoughtful conviction and provided specifics as to why I feel the way I do. I’m not trying to change peoples minds. I even stated that. Just sharing my thoughts based on what I’ve read and seen.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 2, 2022)

I estimate about 90% NPW. But as I've said elsewhere, I didn't judge the movies until _after _I'd seen them. What I found irritating, this go round, was the amount of vitriol being spewed _before _anyone had seen the new series. As I predicted, the haters have mostly just doubled down, being unable to retract their earlier condemnations.


----------



## Ent (Sep 2, 2022)

[email protected] said:


> And which may you be Southerner?



If he does not reply (which he may choose not to, being an Admin and all), I might suggest you review some of his posts and responses. They are telling.
In addition, if he does not respond 'soon', come back and ask me. 
I'll be happy to give you my 'outside perspective'.
As I stand on my shelf observing the world, I see much and watch things carefully.


----------



## Tuor Cassidy (Sep 2, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I estimate about 90% NPW. But as I've said elsewhere, I didn't judge the movies until _after _I'd seen them. What I found irritating, this go round, was the amount of vitriol being spewed _before _anyone had seen the new series. As I predicted, the haters have mostly just doubled down, being unable to retract their earlier condemnations.


I will refrain from watching. Although, I will allow for my mind to change if after the series I am told differently that what I’ve sl


----------



## Ent (Sep 2, 2022)

Ah good. I see he replied.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 2, 2022)

Nyaa nyaa, missed me! 😆


----------



## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 2, 2022)

How is the Enting this day?


----------



## Tuor Cassidy (Sep 2, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I estimate about 90% NPW. But as I've said elsewhere, I didn't judge the movies until _after _I'd seen them. What I found irritating, this go round, was the amount of vitriol being spewed _before _anyone had seen the new series. As I predicted, the haters have mostly just doubled down, being unable to retract their earlier condemnations.


I am refraining from watching based on what I have read regarding the series. Although, I will allow for my mind to change. If many on this site report that after seeing the series that it does actually do homage to the written work then I will be the first to say I was wrong. We shall see. People are allowed to be pessimistic just as they are allowed to be optimistic. Gifts granted by Iluvatar!


----------



## Ent (Sep 2, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> How is the Enting this day?



I'm good thank you. Woke up at just before 1:00 a.m., and got about the day quite nicely. By 2:00 I was at the keyboard already, spending my time in meaningless activities (which I find most worthwhile, all too frequently.) 
But it was a day I needed to actually go in to the office for a few short hours. (Fridays, for a meeting with the boss.) Otherwise, I work from home - a great blessing at this stage of my life (and for my entwife's benefit.) 

Christopher has not disowned me as a Tolkienian (Tolkienist? Tolkienite?) nor left the Forum - (at least not yet) - so I feel better after my previous responses to him. 

All seems well with the world at the moment.
But now I must get over to my other screens and do a little 'work work' for a time. 

I trust you are doing well too.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 2, 2022)

Fair enough, Christopher --- though I'm reminded of a story told by T.A.Shippey about a debate on Tolkien he participated in on the BBC -- in the "pro" role, of course. After an hour's fierce argument, he rode down the lift with the "anti" fellow, who admitted to him that he'd never actually read the books.

I guess my recommendation would be to refrain from arguing about something until after experiencing it.


----------



## Tuor Cassidy (Sep 2, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> I'm good thank you. Woke up at just before 1:00 a.m., and got about the day quite nicely. By 2:00 I was at the keyboard already, spending my time in meaningless activities (which I find most worthwhile, all too frequently.)
> But it was a day I needed to actually go in to the office for a few short hours. (Fridays, for a meeting with the boss.) Otherwise, I work from home - a great blessing at this stage of my life (and for my entwife's benefit.)
> 
> Christopher has not disowned me as a Tolkienian (Tolkienist? Tolkienite?) nor left the Forum - (at least not yet) - so I feel better after my previous responses to him.
> ...


No need to worry Enting, I am grateful for your calming nature!


----------



## Ent (Sep 2, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I guess my recommendation would be to refrain from arguing about something until after experiencing it.



I might add just a comment to this... well, OK two.
1) - I would not argue anyway because arguing is pointless and without result other than a huge drain of energy better spent elsewhere. BUT....
2) - I would add this recommendation - and it's why i WILL watch it. I do not think I can reasonably discuss it with others, if I've not seen for myself what's there. I cannot understand where they're coming from. I cannot put myself in their shoes. I cannot see WHY they may think this part is good, or this part is not so. In short, I'm left without an actual comparative.

The last reason I will watch it is I really do want to see all the ancillary stuff - the cinematography, costuming, props, backgrounds, etc. There will undoubtedly be much beauty in them that I would prefer not to miss.

Yet I will integrate not one iota of it as 'lore' until and unless I have checked each bit against Tolkien (that I'm not already familiar with.)
Personally I choose not to miss the 'good' due to knowing there is going to be some 'bad'. 

And, I REALLY choose not to miss 'knowing what's really there' so I can relate to other people and their perspective better. It helps me 'ease into' a discussion regarding how it doesn't quite fit what is written 'because....' etc. hoping to invite some into the writing itself... I feel like I have a broken wing, if I can't be on the same page with them in that way.


----------



## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 2, 2022)

Glad to hear you are well, Enting! May your bark never grow treeish!


----------



## Tuor Cassidy (Sep 2, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Fair enough, Christopher --- though I'm reminded of a story told by T.A.Shippey about a debate on Tolkien he participated in on the BBC -- in the "pro" role, of course. After an hour's fierce argument, he rode down the lift with the "anti" fellow, who admitted to him that he'd never actually read the books.
> 
> I guess my recommendation would be to refrain from arguing about something until after experiencing it.


Yes, I agree with you and I know I seem ignorant in this matter. I am also referring to previous adaptations and their failures. And in reference with Professor Shippey’s story, the director of this new show and even some writers have admitted (unless the articles I’ve read are erroneous) that they themselves little knowledge of the written works. I know I’m being a bit over the top but if this is true, then I want this series to have poor ratings and a revolution of NPW’s to be heard from the highest balcony of Taniquetil! And if not we can talk about other matters.. like whose everyone’s favorite first age character! Mine is Tuor!



Well-aged Enting said:


> I might add just a comment to this... well, OK two.
> 1) - I would not argue anyway because arguing is pointless and without result other than a huge drain of energy better spent elsewhere. BUT....
> 2) - I would add this recommendation - and it's why i WILL watch it. I do not think I can reasonably discuss it with others, if I've not seen for myself what's there. I cannot understand where they're coming from. I cannot put myself in their shoes. I cannot see WHY they may think this part is good, or this part is not so. In short, I'm left without an actual comparative.
> 
> ...


In terms of knowing your argument. I agree totally.



[email protected] said:


> In terms of knowing your argument. I agree totally.


But if watch a show and it ruins my internal imagery I have from the written word, that I just simply cannot stand. 
it took me years to erase Pete’s characters from my minds eye. I prefer John Ronald’s beautifully detailed imagery


----------



## Ent (Sep 2, 2022)

[email protected] said:


> But if watch a show and it ruins my internal imagery I have from the written word, that I just simply cannot stand.
> it took me years to erase Pete’s characters from my minds eye. I prefer John Ronald’s beautifully detailed imagery



Indeed. Each of us makes our own choices based on our own circumstances.
Fortunately we are not all alike. What a boring world it would be if we were..!!


----------



## Tuor Cassidy (Sep 2, 2022)

You are correct Southerner, arguing is tiresome. I’m kinda wiped out right now! Haha! One last thing, if I watch this series and my prognosis deems true and possibly worse.....(I would keep an open mind throughout as my wife would leave the room if I start getting upset over anything Tolkien) but if so, would my views still be welcomed here in the Forum or is anything anti ROP frowned upon completely?


----------



## Berzelmayr (Sep 2, 2022)

[email protected] said:


> You are correct Southerner, arguing is tiresome. I’m kinda wiped out right now! Haha! One last thing, if I watch this series and my prognosis deems true and possibly worse.....(I would keep an open mind throughout as my wife would leave the room if I start getting upset over anything Tolkien) but if so, would my views still be welcomed here in the Forum or is anything anti ROP frowned upon completely?


I think we have quite a lot of people, who are critical of RoP, but those, who are not are sometimes a bit louder or shall I say spamming the board?


----------



## Ent (Sep 2, 2022)

[email protected] said:


> would my views still be welcomed here in the Forum or is anything anti ROP frowned upon completely?


Southerner is not on at the moment. I will respond though perhaps I should not... but I know his mind on this somewhat.
ALL views are welcome here. (Within the "rules"). And they open good discussion.
It's not the views or opinions that create a problem.
It's the "approach." (as noted in my post yesterday.)

You can already see all around you negative comments regarding RoP.
As long as we handle opinion knowing its opinion, it's more than welcome here.


----------



## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 2, 2022)

In my opinion: It is the tone. At TTF, we should have a place where someone can say that they absolutely hate something, (without profane or inappropriate language of course) or say that they absolutely love it and it is their favorite thing ever, or anything in between, and not be condemned or told to be quiet. As long as you act nicely and civilly, kindly and with respect, you should be fine. Especially respect for Tolkien, because without him, none of us would be on this Forum.


----------



## Ent (Sep 2, 2022)

I'm really restraining myself here, from providing a few simplistic examples how a simple word or two changes the entire approach - the "tone" - of a thing. 
It's the 'teacher' in me, which (maybe sadly) I've been called to be in many areas throughout life.

I'll just give one. Perhaps the one will be able to be expanded to a broader application.

Example:

This thing is going to be horrid. Or;
I think this thing is going to be horrid.

The one lands like a statement of fact, and almost 'demands' agreement by its tone/approach. (and the mindset that delivers that way usually follows the words spoken.)

The other acknowledges it's an opinion, and offers it up that way. It demands nothing, and possibly even invites discussion. (and the mindset that delivers that way usually follows the words spoken.)

There's an old scripture that applies: "Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks."

Of course... the follow-up discussion can go north or south as well. But it's the Entry through the Door that engages the room that is afterward occupied one way or another.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 2, 2022)

Everyone is welcome here, as long as they follow the rules.


----------



## Tuor Cassidy (Sep 2, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Everyone is welcome here, as long as they follow the rules.


Of course, i have read the rules, I am not aware I have broken any? If so I apologize.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 2, 2022)

You haven't. It was just a general statement concerning the question of who is or is not welcome here.


----------



## Tuor Cassidy (Sep 2, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> You haven't. It was just a general statement concerning the question of who is or is not welcome here.


Understood! Thank you. I look forward to future conversations and to speak upon different Tolkien Topics!


----------



## Ent (Sep 2, 2022)

[email protected] said:


> I look forward to future conversations and to speak upon different Tolkien Topics!



I have a post titled "Thoughts Upon the Origin and Awakening of the Ents:" which expanded to including the awakening of the Trees as well.

https://www.thetolkienforum.com/threads/thoughts-upon-the-origin-and-awakening-of-the-ents.30449/

I'm revising and restructuring it into an Essay that I hope to publish to "The Library of the Istari". Most of the stuff in there seems a bit old. We need to generate some new fodder for the gristmill.

(I'm also putting it to verse, but that'll just be stuck wherever we put our poetry stuff.)

I have revised it a bit since the post already... but you'll get the direction of where it's going, and the other discussion on it.

If you have time I'd appreciate your input on it.


----------



## Olorgando (Sep 2, 2022)

I see it as being each person's individual "applicability" as referred to by JRRT in his foreword to the second edition - there specifically in contrast to allegory - which JRRT saw as residing in the freedom of the reader. A scene might remind one person of a positive event in their own lives, another of a negative one - and a third might have neither, so be personally indifferent or neutral to that scene. That's not to say that they wouldn't enjoy the scene, appreciate it for being well written. And probably no two people would agree on every scene in the book, depending on personal reading preferences before the first reading, or after.


----------



## Tuor Cassidy (Sep 2, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> I have a post titled "Thoughts Upon the Origin and Awakening of the Ents:" which expanded to including the awakening of the Trees as well.
> 
> https://www.thetolkienforum.com/threads/thoughts-upon-the-origin-and-awakening-of-the-ents.30449/
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing this Enting! I look forward to reading it! I appreciate your appreciation of the prose side to Tolkien as well!
This topic intrigues me as well!


----------



## Halasían (Sep 2, 2022)

Berzelmayr said:


> I think we have quite a lot of people, who are critical of RoP, but those, who are not are sometimes a bit louder or shall I say spamming the board?


After what has gone on here from February to now, I find this statement rather hilarious. THE NPWs far outnumber the FADs from what I see. 🤣 

TTF is held up as one of the more 'anti-RoP' opinion sites out there. Actual discussion of the series has been regularly muted and buried under dumpings of links to youtube-ranters for months as the long-running 'Updates' thread attests. I've been keeping my thoughts and opinions of the series pretty much to myself as far as this site is concerned since saying that I am waiting until I actually see what is presented before forming objective thoughts one way or another got me labeled as an 'Amazon-shill'.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 



[email protected] said:


> we can talk about other matters.. like whose everyone’s favorite first age character! Mine is Tuor!


Turin as a main, but I always had a thing for Finduilas of Norgothrond.


----------



## Will Whitfoot (Sep 2, 2022)

I just stayed up way past my bedtime and watched the first two episodes. I am all in! I am especially entranced by the depiction and involvement in the tale of the ancestors of Hobbits... and the orgin stories. Sorry. no spoilers! But we meet some familiar characters! I am anxiously awaiting episode three. Count me a fan.


----------



## Erestor Arcamen (Sep 2, 2022)

Yup I loved it. Not sure if you saw my post in the episode discussion but someone on Reddit (link/subreddit contains spoilers!) pointed this out, which I thought was SUPER cool:



Spoiler: Spoiler






> The intro borrows the idea from those sound resonance visualization experiments a lot of people might have seen (here's a good video of it). They use sound resonance to create patterns of fine particles (like sand or beads). So it fits perfectly with Ainulindalë's theme of creating form and matter through music. You don't get more high fantasy than the Creation itself.


----------



## Aldarion (Sep 3, 2022)

It can be enjoyed if you a) turn off your brain and b) forget it is supposed to be set in Tolkien's universe. Otherwise, it is insultingly dumb.

EDIT: And there are probably more outright contradictions against Tolkien's canon in this one episode than there are spoken lines. So yeah.


----------



## Will Whitfoot (Sep 3, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> Yup I loved it. Not sure if you saw my post in the episode discussion but someone on Reddit (link/subreddit contains spoilers!) pointed this out, which I thought was SUPER cool:


I enjoyed the opening credits and recognized the sand images from demonstrations of acoustic principles, but failed to grasp the implied connection to the origin story from the Silmarillion of Middle-earth being formed by the materialization of the musical themes of the Ainur! Brilliant! Thanks for pointing that out!


----------



## Erestor Arcamen (Sep 3, 2022)

Will Whitfoot said:


> I enjoyed the opening credits and recognized the sand images from demonstrations of acoustic principles, but failed to grasp the implied connection to the origin story from the Silmarillion of Middle-earth being formed by the materialization of the musical themes of the Ainur! Brilliant! Thanks for pointing that out!


Yeah, I thought that was very clever and a really good nod to creation in Arda!


----------



## Tuor Cassidy (Sep 3, 2022)

Aldarion said:


> It can be enjoyed if you a) turn off your brain and b) forget it is supposed to be set in Tolkien's universe. Otherwise, it is insultingly dumb.
> 
> EDIT: And there are probably more outright contradictions against Tolkien's canon in this one episode than there are spoken lines. So yeah.


Well said! I actually watched the first episode. So I could see if my thoughts were justified. This made Peter Jackson look like a court stenographer in his adaptation. I won’t give anything away but even the acting was lame. I stand by my original feelings. Blasphemy.


----------



## Will Whitfoot (Sep 3, 2022)

I would like to say something from the point of view of a content creator.

It is hard to create. It is very easy for armchair critics to write scathing comments about the creative efforts of others. I have endured my share of such. It is in fact, in my opinion, the greatest failing of forums and social media that we become anonymous. As a result, some people feel emboldened to troll others and say hurtful things as they are insulated by their avatars and screen names from the reactions of their targets. So for instance, we may well assume that some of the cast, crew, and writers of the films we are discussing are in fact themselves fans, and members of this and other public forums. And so it is that insinuations thrown carelessly around may not merely be against someone not present, but against someone who is right here, right now. 

So whenever someone feels the need to anonymously criticize the artistic expression of another, they should take a step back, and do so as if the target of their criticism is sitting right there in front of them. Could you do better? If your comments are knowledgeable and would be constructive and helpful to the creator to improve their work, then do so in a spirit of compassion and grace. If your comments would be hurtful without any helpful aspect, then please consider the option to keep them to yourself.


----------



## Aldarion (Sep 3, 2022)

Will Whitfoot said:


> I would like to say something from the point of view of a content creator.
> 
> It is hard to create. It is very easy for armchair critics to write scathing comments about the creative efforts of others. I have endured my share of such. It is in fact, in my opinion, the greatest failing of forums and social media that we become anonymous. As a result, some people feel emboldened to troll others and say hurtful things as they are insulated by their avatars and screen names from the reactions of their targets. So for instance, we may well assume that some of the cast, crew, and writers of the films we are discussing are in fact themselves fans, and members of this and other public forums. And so it is that insinuations thrown carelessly around may not merely be against someone not present, but against someone who is right here, right now.
> 
> So whenever someone feels the need to anonymously criticize the artistic expression of another, they should take a step back, and do so as if the target of their criticism is sitting right there in front of them. Could you do better? If your comments are knowledgeable and would be constructive and helpful to the creator to improve their work, then do so in a spirit of compassion and grace. If your comments would be hurtful without any helpful aspect, then please consider the option to keep them to yourself.


Irrelevant. If you are making an adaptation, or using somebody else's IP at all, you have a duty to respect that person's intentions and beliefs built into the work, and to respect the effort put into building the work itself. If you cannot show basic respect, you have no business making an adaptation.

Everything else are just excuses.


----------



## Tuor Cassidy (Sep 3, 2022)

Aldarion said:


> It can be enjoyed if you a) turn off your brain and b) forget it is supposed to be set in Tolkien's universe. Otherwise, it is insultingly dumb.
> 
> EDIT: And there are probably more outright contradictions against Tolkien's canon in this one episode than there are spoken lines. So yeah





Aldarion said:


> Irrelevant. If you are making an adaptation, or using somebody else's IP at all, you have a duty to respect that person's intentions and beliefs built into the work. If you cannot show basic respect, you have no business making an adaptation.
> 
> Everything else are just excuses.


What I’ve been saying all along! I guess unless you are heaping praise upon something, then you must remain silent. I am a musician. I have created and played in front of crowds that, some clapped, some jeered! Part of creating is leaving yourself in a state of vulnerability. And those are creations of my own. If I covered a band’s song and changed the lyrics. I’m going to court for copyright infringement. 
I feel the “lyrics” have been completely disregarded..... and to be released within a day of the Professors death is something else that fries my bean! The voices of those who do not want to praise the show are of as equal value to those who do. I also thought the production and directing was second class! God knows they had the budget to do better! My point is, they had a chance to nail it and they chose to butcher it!


----------



## Ealdwyn (Sep 3, 2022)

I have to be honest and say that I didn't find it as offensive as I'd feared. However, I do find its relationship to Tolkien very tenuous: there is very little actual Tolkien in there. So I supposed there wasn't really enough to be offended by.

So I tried to judge it as a stand-alone fantasy series and I found it.... well.... a bit of a mess, to be honest. Incoherent. By halfway through episode 2 I was itching to switch it off.

It may be because of the amount of world-building, and so it may improve as the characters and events become more established.
But it may quite simply be garbage. The jury's out on that one. Only time will tell.


----------



## Tuor Cassidy (Sep 3, 2022)

Yes, I agree and not just to support my original point. The show may improve as most shows do simply by the viewer becoming more immersed in the story. It’s the story itself that I have trouble with in terms of it really just borrowing some names and place names from the legendarium.
I also found the story lacking in and of itself and if we are here to discuss Tolkien’s works. There doesn’t seem much to discuss within this show as it really has little to no actual Tolkien narratives. I also found the portrayals of Elrond and Gilgalad, at least so far, seem off. They were portrayed as dismissive politicians.


----------



## Annatar (Sep 5, 2022)

My spoiler-free (and "politics"-free 😏) rating on episodes 1 and 2 from the perspective of someone who last read Tolkien's Second Age works 1-2 years ago:

2/10







Two points for the visual effects (beautiful landscapes and cities) and because it made me - when I still had high hopes - re-read some of Tolkien's writings in advance.

However, if I were Tolkien-illiterate, or if it were its own fantasy series without misusing Tolkien's name for it:

4.5/10

Unfortunately, still below average, as the extremely high budget was not put into what is most important: a good, exciting story, meaningful dialogues and interesting characters you want to sympathize with.
Compared to above, I give 2.5 points more, because some logic errors (which you can only recognize as a book reader, although still many logic errors remain) and the many lore violations would not be noticeable then.

So far I find all the more important characters (perhaps with the exception of Durin and Theo) quite unlikeable and/or not comprehensible in a coherent way regarding their actions. The main character is obviously supposed to be Guyladriel, but so far you haven't gotten to know a single likeable quality of her: she's just permanently annoyed, frustrated and bitchy.
And as far as her physical attributes are concerned, she's an invincible superhero and thus uninteresting. Where is her weak point?
Is there anyone besides her deceased brother that she doesn't loathe? So far, no, and she is unkind to everyone she meets.

And this, on the other hand, is partly justified, because most of the people around her are portrayed as idiots. Well, that doesn't make the series any better. I would like to see a series with some very likeable and some very hateable characters - most of them, however, interesting and quite intelligent or at least not obviously stupid, as long as they are not orcs.

Game of Thrones, for example, did a much better job of that. There, it was even the case that characters you hated at first you might later like, and vice versa. The tension was there from the first episode. Here, however, the first two hours were just boring or embarrassing. Characters I liked a lot in the books are now completely indifferent to me here or even annoyed me, while characters that were newly invented hardly seem interesting so far (and that's regardless of whether they fit the Tolkien lore or not).

Anyway, Amazon boss Bezos wanted a Tolkien adaptation that could compete with Game of Thrones. So far, they are far from that - and not because of the lack of violence and sex scenes, but because of the poor and not very exciting story and the uninteresting or annoyingly awkward characters.
Even Elrond, who is supposed to be a sympathetic guy, doesn't stand by his best female friend and has ghosted his best male buddy for 20 years and missed his wedding, without this being explained in any way as an excuse for him. So it is not made easy to like one of the protagonists.

Incidentally, bad storytelling also includes the fact that even after the second episode, it's still relatively unclear what this is all about. A clear, concrete threat would motivate us to look forward to the next episode. (Instead, we have cows that give black milk, etc.)
So far, however, there are only a few boring surprise boxes, where you might want to take a nap before opening, because you already suspect that there are only a few new socks (even when made out of Mithril 😉 ) in there...

If it were a series detached from Tolkien, I would stop watching more episodes now.
As it is, however, I will continue to "torture" (but also "amuse") myself through the first season, because I personally at least also enjoy comparing all this nonsense with the books. And there are now countless YouTubers who work through it all in great detail and in a funny and entertaining way.

At any rate, after a certain point it will become uninteresting to discuss the details, unless a miracle happens and the series becomes interesting at some point after all. At the moment, however, it doesn't look like that will happen. The first season will certainly find a wide audience, but how will it look in a few years for the second season? That will now depend heavily on whether they can establish a certain quality by the end of the first season, which has unfortunately been completely lacking so far.


----------



## ZehnWaters (Sep 5, 2022)

Halasían said:


> Turin as a main, but I always had a thing for Finduilas of Norgothrond.


Finrod, I think.


----------



## Halasían (Sep 5, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> Finrod, I think.


Not sure why you quoted my answer to the OP with that answer.
You think Finrod is your favourite character of the First Age??? 

For context:


----------



## ZehnWaters (Sep 5, 2022)

Halasían said:


> Not sure why you quoted my answer to the OP with that answer.


I was being lazy; I didn't feel like scrolling up to quote the other post.


----------



## Ghân-buri-Rob (Sep 6, 2022)

Tuor Cassidy said:


> Hi I am a new member. My name is Christopher. I am from Boston, MA. Not to be a downer but this upcoming show is an insult to JRR. We ALL know that he would strongly disapprove as the spirit of his writing will NOT be exorcised and the articles I've read on the series directly say that the director and actors are proud that the show is vastly different from the writing. THEN DO NOT MAKE AN ADAPTATION THAT DOES NOT HONOR THE SPIRIT OF THE ART ITSELF!
> 
> This is the Tolkien Forum is it not? I came here for that purpose. Not to celebrate the newest show his great grandchildren have sold the rights to! I bet we have read more Tolkien than they have! Tolkien was a wonderful writer and academic, not a TV producer. Lets celebrate the man and his gifts to us! NOT those who choose to cash in on his creations with any intention on honoring them!


Amai, a true purist. Too strong a believe or argument corrupts ones soul. Being a non conformist myself I have learned that the original, be it a book, a song or whatever, always stands above everything! Scisms are dangerous, but fanwork is fanwork and will and cannot replace the original. I for one am glad with the ROP; it broadens the my Tolkien horizon. His works will forever be, and I think he would be pleased to see his stories still inspire us!


----------



## Ealdwyn (Sep 6, 2022)

About 99% of the problem with RoP is this


Annatar said:


> the extremely high budget was not put into what is most important: a good, exciting story, meaningful dialogues and interesting characters you want to sympathize with.


----------



## Ent (Sep 6, 2022)

Will Whitfoot said:


> If your comments would be hurtful without any helpful aspect, then please consider the option to keep them to yourself.



Absolutely right on. Decency and compassion mark a race that understands much.




Aldarion said:


> Irrelevant



Far from irrelevant. Right on point. If scathing, bashing, degrading comments about people are the best we can do using Language, then Language should most likely be taken from us so we remain silent.

It may "feel good" to vent vitriol - personally - but that's just the problem. It only considers 'self', and only a self-centric person does not care whether they hurt someone else in any way.

We are quite capable of getting our points across without harming others in the process. Either intentionally, as is the case with some if not most, or unintentionally because we do not think before we speak/type.

There is no need to be cruel - ever..!

_The most divisive religion in the world today is the Religion of Opinion .......................................... _Well-aged Enting

It is divisive when 'opinion' is handled through cruelty. When it is handled by reasoned, appropriate discussion, it is productive, and sometimes even uniting.
There's a reason it is "the most divisive religion in the world today"..!!


----------



## Ealdwyn (Sep 6, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> Far from irrelevant.


I disagree.

Will Whitfoot was talking about respect for content creators, and I agree entirely with that.
But as Aldarion was pointing out - and what you are attempting to dismiss as irrelevant - is that Amaz*n Studios and its creative staff are not the content creators here. Tolkien is the content creator. The people adapting his work are the ones who are failing to show respect, treating the name of Tolkien and "Lord of the Rings" as a tagline, a commodity, to try to lend some legitimacy to their bastardisation of his work. It's a bit rich for them to expect our respect, in the light of their complete failure to show any respect for the source material.


----------



## Ent (Sep 6, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> I disagree.


I acknowledge your disagreement.



Ealdwyn said:


> I disagree.


I'm sorry Ealdwyn, I find I must expand my statement above.

"I acknowledge your disagreement. Yet I cannot bring myself to the point where I agree that two wrongs will ever make a right."
To meet disrespect with disrespect is inherently adverse to my makeup I'm afraid.

I could WISH things were otherwise. Just as I could WISH people would not meet disrespect with disrespect. Yet this is humanity under discussion. 
So as much as one lives in a world where they do not want to see someone disrespecting Tolkien's works, I live in a world where I don't want someone to disrespect Tolkien's works, nor do I want them to disrespect those who may do so. 

My 'purist' or 'idealist' tendencies go well beyond the initial thing. They travel all the way to the final conclusion of all things.


----------



## Halasían (Sep 6, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> I disagree.
> 
> Will Whitfoot was talking about respect for content creators, and I agree entirely with that.
> But as Aldarion was pointing out - and what you are attempting to dismiss as irrelevant - is that Amaz*n Studios and its creative staff are not the content creators here. Tolkien is the content creator. The people adapting his work are the ones who are failing to show respect, treating the name of Tolkien and "Lord of the Rings" as a tagline, a commodity, to try to lend some legitimacy to their bastardisation of his work. It's a bit rich for them to expect our respect, in the light of their complete failure to show any respect for the source material.


↑ That is laughable. The Tolkien Estate, the ones who look after the created works of J.R.R. Tolkien, made the AmazOn deal as it stands, with oversight clauses and material clauses, and one of the directors and family members, Simon Tolkien, has been a active contributor to the project. I think that in itself adds more legitimacy to the project than any opinions of you people who "think" you know better. Cue the counter argument that 'The Tolkien Estate don't care about Tolkien's work... they are in it for the cash ... Simon don't count because of whatever family dynamic is believed to have gone on', etc. 😂


----------



## Ent (Sep 6, 2022)

Halasían said:


> "The Tolkien Estate...made the AmazOn deal as it stands, with oversight clauses and material clauses....Cue the counter argument that 'The Tolkien Estate don't care about Tolkien's work..." &c.



Indeed, we have heard this (and every other) argument from the beginning, haven't we. Things said before will all be said again. And again. And again. And we will likely hear it all for the 5 years of the series, and another 20 or so beyond. (Thankfully, I'll be dead well before it ends.)

And yet there is still one thing that is not being dealt with in it all.
Reality.
But what is reality, one might say?
Reality for one is not the same as reality for the other.
EXACTLY, sez I.
So the question becomes: is there anything higher than the personal need to be 'right or wrong'???
Or must we live in the Religion of Opinion, always driving for agreement in spite of the facts, thus engendering inevitable sundering due to 'separatist views.'

In the end, "to disagree (with me)" is what is truly, fundamentally, being held as being 'the wrong.' And it applies to both (or all) 'sides' of an argument.

But let's not be hasty here, lest we get into a socio-psychological discussion rather than merely battling over 'right and wrong as perceived, and insisted upon, by each individual.'

We would, if we entered into a discussion on the underlying issues behind all the Opinion, need to enter into the arena of understanding, tolerance - even acceptance. Not of the differing opinions themselves... but the fact that they exist, and represent another 'reality' built for and within each individual's own private self-created universe - their very being and existence just as they are.
We all live together - but in very different universes.
(Or we try not to - which makes for every conflict that has ever existed in the history of humankind.)

Wars are fought because different universes, and thus opinions, exist.
I wonder if we 'get' the extent to which opinions drive all that we see, do, and ever experience. And that our own personal means of handling 'opinions' generally constitutes our state of happiness or lack thereof. Of peace, or lack thereof.

But there are those who are not happy unless they are unhappy. And making others equally (or more) unhappy as well. Another reality existing in the universes of some, though many of them don't 'get' that either (while others do, but don't care).

NOTE: I do not speak of any specific individual(s) here. I speak of humankind. Our only question is, how do WE choose to live all this out. What do WE choose for our universe to look like - which includes how we handle others' universes. (And yes, it is a choice. Nothing more, and nothing less.)

I've made my choice.


----------



## Elthir (Sep 6, 2022)

My two reviews have been, not unexpectedly, yegg-based, and can be interpreted in various ways in any case . . . but just to mention it somewhere, no yegg was actually harmed in the making of these reviews.

I used CGY.


----------



## Ent (Sep 6, 2022)

My dear Elthir... as you know, I thoroughly enjoy your posts, your knowledge, your depth, and your open mindedness. 
I copy your stuff to research later.

However, I confess... I'm a bit too practical minded (or ignorant) to grasp your comments sometimes. The above is one case.

What exactly does 'yegg-based' mean, and what is 'CGY' ? My lack of information has returned no opportunity to settle the questions when I sent a query to my few remaining and largely disconnected brain cells.

If you don't mind explaining... thank you very much.
(As curator of the Hazy Halls, I DO understand 'interpreted in various ways' of course... were things not so, I'd need to look for a different job.)


----------



## Elthir (Sep 6, 2022)

🥚

Apologies *Well-aged Enting*, but often enough, I pronounce it yegg! Instead of CGI, we have CGY.

I'm not against fiddling with words . . . sometimes 

_"Alice was too much puzzled to say anything, so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. "They've 
a temper, some of them—particularly verbs, they're the proudest—adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs—however, I can manage the whole lot! Impenetrability! That's what I say!"_


----------



## Deimos (Sep 6, 2022)

My reaction: "Well here I am watching a movie that is supposed to be about JRRT's ME and ...it isn't."
Has some characters with the same names, but the story is way out in left field.
The compression of the timeline makes the mishmash even worse.

The whole thing makes me think of the “pasta doneness” test.
It’s as if the writers indiscriminately scooped up ME characters, names, events, remote lore, fan fic, modern (as in 21st C) sensibilities, mixed it all up and then flung the entire mess at a green screen to see what would stick, and what wouldn’t.

Someone said (can't recall where I read it) that if one views this as just another Saturday afternoon, popcorn "sword and sorcery" fantasy B-movie, it's passable. But those movies are generally ones I don't waste my time on.


----------



## Aldarion (Sep 6, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> Far from irrelevant. Right on point. If scathing, bashing, degrading comments about people are the best we can do using Language, then Language should most likely be taken from us so we remain silent.


And why are "scathing, bashing, degrading comments" bad? Because you seem to think any and all criticism is solely such.

Criticism is good thing. No point in praising excretment for a culinary masterpiece - if you do, you will end up having cooks poison people on a regular basis, because they had not been criticized and so they and their customers came to believe that there is no difference between excretment and a chocolate cake.

It is same with art. If you do not criticize art, you end up with art itself being devastated and ceasing to be art to begin with. Why do you think modern cities look ugly as sin, why are literal piles of trash being hailed as artistry? Because we, as a culture, have come to believe that human feelings are somehow _important_, that respecting somebody's feelings and not insulting people is more important than telling the truth.

Rings of Power _are _a pile of trash. And I will keep criticizing them as such.


Well-aged Enting said:


> It may "feel good" to vent vitriol - personally - but that's just the problem. It only considers 'self', and only a self-centric person does not care whether they hurt someone else in any way.


I am sorry, but _criticism_ and _venting vitrol_ are two completely different things. Criticism is based on facts, and I have provided argument why I believe Rings of Power are not art but sheer plagiarism and mockery. And if you see that as "venting vitrol", if you cannot differentiate between founded criticism and "venting vitrol" as you say, if you are basing your opinions solely on emotions ("this opinion may hurt somebody's feelings"), then what value do your opinions hold?

You are basically saying that we shouldn't criticize something because it "may hurt person's feelings". You really think Tolkien himself hadn't been criticized? He sent his work to editors, and they had a _lot _of to-and-fro with them. And that was a good thing. Even Tolkien benefited _a lot_ from criticism he had received - and you think we shouldn't criticize a bunch of incompetent, conceited filmmakers? Just because somebody _might _get _upset_ by criticism?


Well-aged Enting said:


> We are quite capable of getting our points across without harming others in the process. Either intentionally, as is the case with some if not most, or unintentionally because we do not think before we speak/type.


And where have I harmed anybody in the post you quoted? What, exactly, is "harmful" - even by, frankly, _ridiculously insane and insanely ridiculous_ modern standards of "harmful" - in this post?


> If you are making an adaptation, or using somebody else's IP at all, you have a duty to respect that person's intentions and beliefs built into the work. If you cannot show basic respect, you have no business making an adaptation.


If you see something there as "harmful", I'm frankly terrified of what you might think of this reply. But to me, both that post, and this one, are perfectly polite.


----------



## Ent (Sep 6, 2022)

Aldarion said:


> I'm frankly terrified


Don't be terrified.
What I think is an opinion.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 6, 2022)

Aldarion said:


> He sent his work to editors, and they had a _lot _of to-and-fro with them


I don't recall any of them calling it "a pile of trash".

And if they had, I doubt he would have "benefited" from it. 😀


----------



## Ent (Sep 6, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I don't recall any of them calling it "a pile of trash".
> 
> And if they had, I doubt he would have "benefited" from it. 😀



It doesn't matter as far as his response to my post goes.

From its very first 2 paragraphs, its clear he missed the entire point of what I was trying to say, since it sets up statements and conditions that aren't included anywhere in what I wrote.
At the end of the day his thrust seems to be that there is 'criticism' (which MUST be handled 'negatively' by nature) or there is 'praise'. There is no other road.

These are not opposites as his post seems to suggest, nor the only approaches, and if indeed that's the premise from which we work, then he's right on track in his opinion.

But there is criticism that is done extremely politely and well, and there is praise that is intentionally incredibly cruelly handled.

I do fully agree with him that "criticism is a good thing." It just doesn't need to be handled "negatively". And that particular part is NOT an opinion.
The old saw of whether we get farther with honey or vinegar is applicable.

But it's just not worth trying to address with him in a response (at least, by me. And I wouldn't recommend anyone else to try it either.)

I think a careful reading, and rereading, of all I've posted on this issue everywhere, would be very educational for many.


----------



## Tuor Cassidy (Sep 6, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> Finrod, I think.


Finrod Felagund is great too! I believe he was the first to interact with man (house of Beor) when he played some of their instruments whilst they slept and they awoke to the most beautiful music and elf friends thereafter! Also saved Beren’s life in Angband! Great pick ZehnWaters!



Halasían said:


> ↑ That is laughable. The Tolkien Estate, the ones who look after the created works of J.R.R. Tolkien, made the AmazOn deal as it stands, with oversight clauses and material clauses, and one of the directors and family members, Simon Tolkien, has been a active contributor to the project. I think that in itself adds more legitimacy to the project than any opinions of you people who "think" you know better. Cue the counter argument that 'The Tolkien Estate don't care about Tolkien's work... they are in it for the cash ... Simon don't count because of whatever family dynamic is believed to have gone on', etc. 😂


Is Simon not Christopher’s son whom Christopher was greatly hurt by Simons previous support to let the Jackson interpretations do what they will? If Simon is the contributor then that project is already sunk in terms of Tolkien legitimacy. That guy broke ranks with the Tolkien estate and his father (Tolkien’s actual literary executor) did not speak to him for years! Wrong Tolkien to hang your hat on. He only makes the anti ROP argument more legitimate. Simon IS the problem.



Deimos said:


> My reaction: "Well here I am watching a movie that is supposed to be about JRRT's ME and ...it isn't."
> Has some characters with the same names, but the story is way out in left field.
> The compression of the timeline makes the mishmash even worse.
> 
> ...


The timeline compression in episode 1 was rather noticeable and somewhat ludicrous. I think it helps the writers further with their very loose and poor adaptation. Adaptation, as a word itself has really been pushed to the limits of meaning as this show is NOT Tolkien. At least not JRRT....


----------



## ZehnWaters (Sep 6, 2022)

Tuor Cassidy said:


> Finrod Felagund is great too! I believe he was the first to interact with man (house of Beor) when he played some of their instruments whilst they slept and they awoke to the most beautiful music and elf friends thereafter! Also saved Beren’s life in Angband! Great pick ZehnWaters!


Thank you! ^_^ Other favourites include Turgon, Tuor, Idril, and Maedhros (who tried really hard to be good but couldn't escape his oath 😢). Most of The Silmarillion characters I like actually aren't present during the stories of the First Age or have largely changed (Finarfin, Elwë, Denethor (king of the Laiquendi), *Galadriel*).


Tuor Cassidy said:


> Is Simon not Christopher’s son whom Christopher was greatly hurt by Simons previous support to let the Jackson interpretations do what they will? If Simon is the contributor then that project is already sunk in terms of Tolkien legitimacy. That guy broke ranks with the Tolkien estate and his father (Tolkien’s actual literary executor) did not speak to him for years! Wrong Tolkien to hang your hat on. He only makes the anti ROP argument more legitimate. Simon IS the problem.


I was gonna say, isn't that the one who's the family pariah?


----------



## Ealdwyn (Sep 7, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> Maedhros (who tried really hard to be good


Er.... second and third kinslaying? Clearly he didn't try hard enough 🤣


----------



## ZehnWaters (Sep 7, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> Er.... second and third kinslaying? Clearly he didn't try hard enough 🤣


Well, as I said, at that point it was too late. He'd sworn an Oath and it drove him regardless of whether he wanted to or no. His horror at his brothers abandoning *Eluréd *and *Elurín *show that. There was no escaping the geas he'd placed upon himself with the Oath.


----------



## Tuor Cassidy (Sep 7, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> Well, as I said, at that point it was too late. He'd sworn an Oath and it drove him regardless of whether he wanted to or no. His horror at his brothers abandoning *Eluréd *and *Elurín *show that. There was no escaping the geas he'd placed upon himself with the Oath.


Ok, let’s at least agree upon that Maedhros meant well... or that he was the least evil of the 7 sons. He felt really bad about everything... eventually! 😪 Celegorm and Curufin were the worst of them! Also Curufin was the father of Celebrimbor, who got the elves in a bunch of trouble later on....



Aldarion said:


> And why are "scathing, bashing, degrading comments" bad? Because you seem to think any and all criticism is solely such.
> 
> Criticism is good thing. No point in praising excretment for a culinary masterpiece - if you do, you will end up having cooks poison people on a regular basis, because they had not been criticized and so they and their customers came to believe that there is no difference between excretment and a chocolate cake.
> 
> ...


Well Aged Enting means well and is trying to be good natured so that the smaller things can appreciate within the show. At least from what I’ve read from him so far. 

I usually am an optimist but cannot be in so far from what I see from ROP.
We should not have to accept everything they put out as Tolkien related. As fans, learned fans, we are allowed to have standards and not have to accept everything they try and spoon feed us. Also, the fact that the adaptation clearly has little to zero respect for the inspiration, is enough for me to be out on it. I am actually somewhat baffled by the support of ROP.


----------



## Ealdwyn (Sep 7, 2022)

I'm not Catholic (or even Christian), but I thought it was interesting to read this review of RoP from the perspective of Tolkien's faith









Rings of Power: Jeff Bezos’s Billion Dollar Anti-Tolkien Fan Fiction


Whatever else Rings of Power may be, it is not Tolkien; nor is it—as the opening credits claim—based on The Lord of the Rings and its appendices in any meaningful way.




www.crisismagazine.com


----------



## Annatar (Sep 7, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> I'm not Catholic (or even Christian), but I thought it was interesting to read this review of RoP from the perspective of Tolkien's faith
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Especially what is written there about Galadriel is very accurate. 
Almost all elves may have lost many family members and friends in the wars at the end of the First Age. Galadriel is no exception. She's made to appear to have suffered a particularly severe blow to justify her actions and harsh manner, but this may have been more the norm for the elves and Edain of the First Age...


----------



## Ent (Sep 7, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> I'm not Catholic (or even Christian), but I thought it was interesting to read this review of RoP from the perspective of Tolkien's faith
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Interesting. 
It would seem to me perhaps this reviewer doesn't like the show very much.😁


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 7, 2022)

"Piety, gratitude, and humility". If I didn't know better, I'd think he never read the Silmarillion. 😉


----------



## Annatar (Sep 7, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> "Piety, gratitude, and humility". If I didn't know better, I'd think he never read the Silmarillion. 😉


What's wrong with that?

He does not write about Galadriel in the context, but about Tolkien's "moral touchstones".

And of course, the villains defy these ideals, otherwise we wouldn't have an epic story.

However, "piety" should not be taken too literally. What is meant is probably rather such things as when Manwes's eagles appear as a warning sign over Numenor, and these are ignored by the now corrupted King's Men, etc.
The text is obviously written from the point of view of a Catholic (hence the wording and also a certain framing). Tolkien was one, too. Nevertheless, it should be clear to someone of another religion or an atheist what is meant.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 7, 2022)

I didn't note much of any of those virtues on display from the Elves of the First Age.


----------



## Annatar (Sep 7, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I didn't note much of any of those virtues on display from the Elves of the First Age.


Who says that the Elves were the shining example of these values and virtues? Righteous Elves were probably mainly those who went to Valinor and stayed there and led a peaceful life. But that is not what the stories are about.
The Elves, especially Feanor and the Noldor in his wake, are by no means described by Tolkien as moral role models. On the contrary, they were partly responsible for all the "mess" (and thus also for all the great stories).
No matter which people, it is always individual persons who stand out morally or by their deeds positively and symbolize these mentioned virtues. Likewise, these values are emphasized by the antagonists, who bring suffering and destruction to the world by not adhering to the moral concepts and virtues or the laws of Eru and the Valar...

Or to put it more simply:

If a character adheres to the moral code propagated by Tolkien (whether as a Catholic or as a rational, compassionate person can be discussed, but is irrelevant for now), he decides about the joy and suffering of his fellow men. And depending on personal power, the effects can be all the more drastic. (But, as for example with Frodo, there can be surprises concerning the power of someone who is considered weak at first sight, but that is another topic and concept in Tolkien's works).
And what the author of the article probably also wants to say with that: You don't see anything of that in the series so far (respectively only the negative side), because so far almost all characters (especially the elves, who should be on the good side in the Second Age - in contrast to many from the First) act very unsympathetic and egoistic.

Elrond, Gil-galad and Galadriel are described by Tolkien as very noble and good characters, throughout the ages.
In the series they do not come off well:
- Galadriel is always ill-tempered and defies all orders, showing no compassion or sensitivity for her companions.
- Elrond and Gil-galad conspire to deport Galadriel to Valinor because they are annoyed with her. At the same time, both of them, but especially Gil-galad, are foolishly unable to recognize the warning signs and dangers. It is also not really clear why, except that they are annoyed by the annoying Galadriel.
- Elrond is "ghosting" his mate Durin without any plausible explanation being given.

On YouTube I also found this interesting comment somewhere:


> My friend (who didn’t read the books) asked me if the elves are the bad guys. I asked why? he said: “well they invaded Middle Earth and enslaved the humans, that is why they (humans) hate them right?” Lol.


----------



## ZehnWaters (Sep 7, 2022)

Annatar said:


> Especially what is written there about Galadriel is very accurate.
> Almost all elves may have lost many family members and friends in the wars at the end of the First Age. Galadriel is no exception. She's made to appear to have suffered a particularly severe blow to justify her actions and harsh manner, but this may have been more the norm for the elves and Edain of the First Age...


Especially considering Gil-Galad has all of the same family members and Elrond's parents aren't even dead, he was just separated from them as a small child but he can never see them again without also forfeiting living in Middle-Earth.



Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I didn't note much of any of those virtues on display from the Elves of the First Age.


Finrod. Some of the others may not have delved deeply into it but they're not stated as being the opposite: Fingon, Turgon (despite failing; he still held rituals in Gondolin), Angrod, & Aegnor.


----------

