# Sauron's form: your thoughts



## Legolam (Oct 16, 2003)

I was reading the bit in ROTK where Aragorn and Gandalf confront the Mouth of Sauron and it made me think about my conceptions of Sauron.

I know that JRRT describes Sauron as a big red eye (as does the movie, and I defy anyone not to let that affect them), but what do YOU imagine when you read the word Sauron? Where does he sit/lie/hover? How does he issue commands? Does he tell orcs directly what to do, or does he telepathically tell the Mouth of Sauron who then tells the orcs? And if he talks, how does he do it? Where does he go when he dies? And are there any quotes to back up what you imagine?

I'm really just looking for your personal opinions, and if they have any basis in what Tolkien wrote.

So many questions, so little time...


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## Lúthien Séregon (Oct 16, 2003)

Whenever Tolkien described Sauron as a big red eye, I always imagined Sauron to be a spirit residing in Barad-dur, not yet strong enough to take physical form, but with a will far-seeing enough to be able to know or “see” people or events outside of his immediate area, hence a metaphorical eye. His spirit then resembles a great Eye of fire to represent this nature. 




> Far off the shadows of Sauron hung; but torn by some gust of wind out of the world, or else moved by some great disquiet within, the mantling clouds swirled, and for a moment drew aside; and then he saw, rising black, blacker and darker than the vast shades amid which it stood, the cruel pinnacles and iron crown of the topmost tower of Barad-dur. One moment only it stared out, but as from some great window immeasurably high there stabbed northward a flame of red, the flicker of a piercing Eye; and then the shadows were furled again and the terrible vision was removed.



_From Mount Doom, The Return of the King._

It is stated several times that, being of evil nature himself, Sauron could only truly perceive things that related to power or evil.

I think most of the references in LotR to Sauron as an eye are ambiguous enough for one to think of him as an actual eye or merely symbolic of an eye. However, there is a quote in Return of the King that does lead me to further think that the Eye is symbolic of his searching will, drawn to matters of greed or evil:




> Anxiously Sam had noticed how his master’s left hand would often be raised as if to ward off a blow, or to screen his shrinking eyes from a dreadful Eye that seemed to look in them.



From _Mount Doom, Return of the King. _

This quote seems to point to Sauron’s will merely being lured to an evil presence – if the Eye really could see things physically, he would have been aware of the fact that the hobbits were in his vicinity, and that he was in grave peril.

Therefore I felt that he must have related orders to his minions through telepathy or willpower, just as he "sees" things from afar. The Mouth of Sauron was the second-in-command who reinforced these orders.

As for Sauron dying, I imagined that his spirit was quelled beyond hope of ever regaining strength or power after the Ring was destroyed; a mere shadow never to trouble the world again, just as the Nazgul lost all physical form:




> And into the heart of the storm, with a cry that pierced all other sounds, tearing the clouds asunder, the Nazgul came, shooting like flaming bolts, as caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled, withered, and went out.


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## Eriol (Oct 16, 2003)

I don't think Sauron was an Eye. I think he had an ordinary body, with two legs, two arms, etc. All of the references to an Eye are metaphorical -- they refer to Sauron's far-seeing power. But just as Gandalf strove with Sauron and was able to deflect Sauron's Eye when Sauron was almost detecting Frodo at Amon Hen, without being a disembodied eye , Sauron also could be said to search the lands with his Eye. 

I don't know if what I said is too clear, but in my mind at least the Eye of Sauron is clearly a metaphor. The part that comes closer to refuting this conception of mine is the Mirror of Galadriel, when Sauron is perceived by Frodo as a Big Red Eye. However, 

1) That is Sauron's symbol; just as if Frodo saw a White Horse on a Green Field he'd think of Rohan without assuming that Théoden was a horse .

2) The Mirror works in mysterious ways; it is probably more accurate at perceiving "spiritual realities" than physical realities. Surely if Frodo saw a guy in that weird armor portrayed at the movie, it would make less of an impression on him than the Red Eye.

3) There is no reason to discard the possibility that Sauron projected the image of the Red Eye on his minions and on "spiritual visions" like the Mirror and the Palantíri.

Ok, now that I bashed my theory enough, points in favor of it:

1) The most famous is Gollum's reference to the Black Hand. He remembers quite well that " 'He' has nine fingers only". It sounds as if Gollum saw the Bad Guy in person. I always took it that way.

2) There is a letter in which Tolkien discusses what would have happened if Frodo had claimed the Ring for himself and kept it (i.e., no Gollum). The Nazgûl would come, but they would not be able to hurt the Ringbearer, and then "Sauron would come". It does not sound like a Big Eye to me. Sauron would come and take the Ring away.

By the way, how would an Eye wear a Ring?


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## Celebthôl (Oct 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lúthien Séregon _
> *Whenever Tolkien described Sauron as a big red eye, I always imagined Sauron to be a spirit residing in Barad-dur, not yet strong enough to take physical form*


 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, i just had the funniest thought of an over-sized, red, novelty, eye-ball floating in mid air where the head should be.


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## Inderjit S (Oct 16, 2003)

*Sauron: Eyeball, Ogre or Formula One Driver?*



> Sauron was, of course, 'confounded' by the disaster [the Drowning of Númenor], and diminished (having expended enormous energy in the corruption of Númenor). He needed time for his own bodily rehabilitation, and for gaining control over his former subjects


 _Letter #211; Letters of Tolkien_ 



> After the battle with Gilgalad and Elendil, Sauron took a long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the Downfall of Númenor (I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, which might be called the 'will' or the effective link between the indestructible mind and being and the realization of its imagination). The impossibility of re-building after the destruction of the Ring, is sufficiently clear 'mythologically' in the present book.


 _Letter #200; Letters of Tolkien_ 



> in a tale which allows the incarnation of great spirits in a physical and destructible form their power must be far greater when actually physically present. ... The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic


 _Letter #246; Letters of Tolkien_ 



> "'He has only four fingers on the Black Hand, but they are enough', said Gollum shuddering."


 _The Black Gate is Closed_ 

Also information on Ainur incarnation:



> "It is said that the longer and the more the same hröa is used, the greater is the bond of habit, and the less do the 'self-arrayed' desire to leave it. As raiment may soon cease to be adornment, and becomes (as is said in the tongues of both Elves and Men) a 'habit', a customary garb. Or if among Elves and Men it be worn to mitigate heat or cold, it soon makes the clad body less able to endure these things when naked". Pengolodh also cites the opinion that if a "spirit" (that is, one of those not embodied by creation) uses a hröa for the furtherance of its personal purposes, or (still more) for the enjoyment of bodily faculties, it finds it increasingly difficult to operate without the hröa. The things that are most binding are those that in the Incarnate have to do with the life of the hröa itself, its sustenance and its propagation. Thus eating and drinking are binding, but not the delight in beauty of sound or form. Most binding is begetting or conceiving.


 _Ósanwe-kenta_ 

Sauron had put most of his power in the Ring, therefore he was able to re-incarante himslef so many times. With the destruction of the Ring he became wholly impotent.

One can draw comparisons with the 'Eye of Sauron' with the 'Eye of Morgoth' the plauged the Orks.



> Morgoth held the Orcs in dire thraldom; for in their corruption they had lost almost all possibility of resisting the domination of his will. So great indeed did its pressure upon them become ere Angband fell that, if he turned his thought towards them, they were conscious of his 'eye' wherever they might be


 _Myths Transformed; HoME 10_


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## Starbrow (Oct 17, 2003)

I think Sauron had a body, but not a seemingly healthy one. I imagine that under his dark, menacing cloak, he appeared a shrunken, old man. I can imagine a dark, sinister figure peering into a crystal ball that magnifies his eye, thus inspiring the imagery of the red eye.


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## Red Istar (Oct 17, 2003)

As has been said, what use would a ring be to an eyeball? The fact that he choose a ring to embody his power in would suggest that he had fingers.


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## Inderjit S (Oct 17, 2003)

*O Sauron Where Art Thou?*



> I think Sauron had a body, but not a seemingly healthy one. I imagine that under his dark, menacing cloak, he appeared a shrunken, old man.





> in a tale which allows the incarnation of great spirits in a physical and destructible form their power must be far greater when actually physically present. ... The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic


 _Letter #246; Letters of Tolkien_ 

Do you really think many people would fear a old, gaunt figure?


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## Lúthien Séregon (Oct 18, 2003)

> HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, i just had the funniest thought of an over-sized, red, novelty, eye-ball floating in mid air where the head should be.



LOL! I have way too much time on my hands at the moment.


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## Lantarion (Oct 18, 2003)

ROTFL!!!!!!  
That's fantastic! LOL 
Whew..

Ahem, anyway.. 
I figure that Sauron is a Maia, Maiar are beings capable of traversing the distance between Arda and the removed Aman. I assume that Aman is not just floating somewhere above the planet Arda (gosh that sounds weird), but has been 'hidden' in an alternate plain of existence. 
SO! Sauron, being a magnificently powerful Maia (at least potentially, with or without his Ring), must have this same ability; and the only reason he doesn't go rampaging around in Aman is that a) the Valar won't let him in, and b) he needs to control his troops in Middle-Earth. 
So, seeing as his physical form has been damaged almost irreparably, I figure that Sauron must live in a sort of limbo, between Arda and Aman; and that he is amassing strength in order to exist in only one of those, i.e. Arda. 

Another notion of mine, concerning Sauron's Eye (lol I can't get that picture out of my head, Lúthien Séregon!), has long been that he only _represents himself_ as an Eye of fire, and that due to his Ainuric qualities and his potential power he is able to show himself in people's minds as he wants to; in this case, the symbol of a flaming, devilish eye of fire is enough to send a bulky warrior cowering under a bush, but more importantly it is able to strike fear into the hearts of _all_ living people, be he warrior, sage, or couch potato; Aragorn, having a degree in Númenórean mind-tricks, was able to contest Sauron's tool of terror when he looked into the palantír.
As for Sauron's 'true form', I don't think Maiar have a true form that humans can comprehend or see; they must take some sort of physical form in order for others to perceive them.

Of course, these conceptions are not set in stone and are very probably incorrect (as Inder's Letters-quote proves).


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## Red Istar (Oct 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lúthien Séregon _
> *
> 
> LOL! I have way too much time on my hands at the moment. *




L..... O.... L!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## HLGStrider (Nov 7, 2003)

My own image, based on nothing but my imagination, was a man made of shadow. Shadow and smoke condensed into a figure so dark you couldn't really see it. . .Wraith like but in human shape. 

I think Sauron could probably leave and enter his body at will and probably spent sometime hovering around just as a blob of ghostly stuff. . .

I also think a good image is the cloud that sprang up at his death. Somehting like that but more squeezed into a smaller lump.


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## Lantarion (Nov 7, 2003)

Haha Elgee that sounds a bit like a Balrog!


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## HLGStrider (Nov 7, 2003)

No. . .balrogs have fire. Sauron's just smokey. . .Like the bear! Now that's an image. . .


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## Lantarion (Nov 8, 2003)

Yeah, hence "a bit like".


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## Bucky (Nov 8, 2003)

You can blame Peter Jackson for the 'Floating Eye without a body'.......

As for HLG Strider's Sauron leaving his body at will, not after Numenor.


'.....Sauron had also returned..... There now he brooded in the dark, until he had wrought for himself a new shape; & it was terrible, for his fair semblance had departed for ever when he was cast into the abyss at the drowning of Numenor....... and the malice of the Eye of Sauron few even of the great amoung Elves & Men could endur.' 

The Eye is his actual shape as well as the 'image' he projects in the 'spirit' realm......


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## HLGStrider (Nov 9, 2003)

I don't see wher ein that quote he could not move in and out of form. I know he couldn't take fair form. 

We do know that he was disembodied once after Numenor, so he was out of form (in bad form?) at least for awhile and could take form again when he'd gained strength. I don't see why he couldn't go in and out once he'd gained strength as well.


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## Bucky (Nov 10, 2003)

No, that quote wasn't meant to back up the statement that Sauron couldn't go in & out of 'form' after Numenior, it was meant to back up that he had a physical form & wasn't a floating eye like PJ presents him in the movies......

After Numenore, Sauron wrought himself a new shape & as you said, his fair semblance had departed forever......

THen, he's vanquished by The Last alliance, Isildur cuts the Ring off, Sauron's spirit flees (or leaves) & takes 1000 to begin to take form again. 

That alone, the taking 1000 years, should tell you he couldn't just 'pop' in & out at will in the 3rd Age.....

There's no indication he could anywhere.
Read the quotes from the letters about his spirit becoming more bound to it's physical form.

I think once he took on the form of 'The Eye of Sauron', much like Morgoth after returning to Middle-Earth with the Silmarils, he was 'stuck' in that form by his own desire to rule over the substance of Middle-Earth.


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## Gandalf White (Nov 10, 2003)

What exactly do you mean by


> the form of 'The Eye of Sauron'


?


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## Lantarion (Nov 10, 2003)

She means "once Sauron took the form of a blzing eye..."

But I don't think Sauron necessarily took the form of an Eye; as shown by LúthienSeregon (LOL), it would not be very practical or worthwhile to actually become a huge, floating eye of fire. 
Now what I have suggested is that the form 'The Eye of Sauron' is a mental, metaphyscial image created by Sauron in the minds of people that he is able to reach (i.e. people who are trying to find him with their thuoght, or people whose minds are open and for a moment unguarded, like Frodo's when he looked into the Mirror), and I stick by it.


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## Bucky (Nov 10, 2003)

_What exactly do you mean by 
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the form of 'The Eye of Sauron'_

I mean this, straight from The Sil, Of The Rings Of Power & The 3rd Age:


....Sauron had also returned..... There now he brooded in the dark, until he had wrought for himself a new shape; & it was terrible, for his fair semblance had departed for ever when he was cast into the abyss at the drowning of Numenor....... and the malice of the Eye of Sauron few even of the great amoung Elves & Men could endur.' 

The Eye is his actual shape as well as the 'image' he projects in the 'spirit' realm......

Couple that with Gollum's comment "He has only 4 fingers on one hand but they are enough" & you can be sure that you are talking about a REAL physical being. I believe it was this Dark Lord who created a 'terrible form' (JRR says so) with one eye smack in the middle of the forehead ala the Cyclops...... 

Then, there's also 'The Eye' that is seen in the 'Unseen' realm, aka 'The wraith' world, where Gandalf tells Frodo that High Elves that have seen the light of The Two Trees have great power against both "The Seen and The Unseen"; There 'The Eye of Sauron' comes across as a thundercloud upon Amon Hen as Frodo has the Ring on. It pops into the mirror of Galadriel; It comes into the palantir when Pippin peaks in, but "then HE came" as Pippin says. "He came" - not "The Eye popped up."

Make NO mistake - although PJ takes artististic license to increase the power of the Ring by having Sauron not be able to regain physical shape without possessing it - Sauron has a body at the time of The War Of The Ring in The Lord Of The Rings Books.


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## Inderjit S (Nov 14, 2003)

One also wonders if they mock statue of Sauron at the crossroads bared any resemblance to him, or was it just the Ork's drawing a picture of the "symbol" of the eye of Sauron on the King's forehead, to show his dominance. 

Whilst were on the subject there is a interesting comment in _Laws and Customs of the Eldar_ (HoME 10) about the ability of Sauron and his Necromancer in taking over peoples bodies, and controlling their actions. 

The Haradrim also took him to be as a 'god and king' because he surrounded his 'abode with fire' and Isildur commented on the heat of Sauron's body killing Gil-Galad. He sure loved fire.


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## Bucky (Nov 14, 2003)

That's a very interesting comment about the statue with the one eye.

I never thought of that, but it makes perfect sense.


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## Turin (Nov 14, 2003)

I always thought of him like a dark lord dressed in black, like Ganandorf, except with a helmet on. Don't ask me why I don't even know.


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## HLGStrider (Nov 14, 2003)

Because of Darth Vadar. . .


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## Khôr’nagan (Nov 15, 2003)

Well, I for one strongly believe Sauron had a physical form in LotR, ever since TA 1000 when he constructed and dwelt in Dol Guldur as the Necromancer. Because when you (or at least I) think about it, how could he not have had his body back and still have been a menacing presence? For when even the Valar would traverse without shape or form (physically) the Eldar could not clearly percieve there presence; Indeed, they might go totaly unnoticed (i.e. not being realized as being Ainur). And yet all around Dol Guldur there was an unbreakable aura of malice, strong enough to even be palpable. And yet this is Sauron, not even a Vala but a Maia, and without even having the Ring with him. Thus, even though the presence of evil is far more greatly felt by the good than the presence of good is felt by the good, still Sauron was far less powerful than the average Vala and even Maia at that time. Therefore, it is my belief that Sauron would have had to have a body in order to be percieved so clearly. Indeed, a passage detailing this has already been quoted above: _in a tale which allows the incarnation of great spirits in a physical and destructible form their power must be far greater when actually physically present._

Also, how could he have built anything if he didn't have a body? I am fairly sure that the Nazgûl were not yet in that general vicinity and indeed would not come to Dol Guldur at all until many years afterward. But moving on, I picture Sauron as he was in the end of the second age, for in order for Gollum's words to be true ("He has only four fingers on the Black Hand, but they are enough"), then Sauron would need to have reconstructed the body he lost in his fall in the battle of the Last Alliance. And that, in my opinion, fits perfectly, as it is my belief that Sauron would not have had the strength to make a new body in such short a time without the Ring, but _did_ have the strength to rebuild his old one in that time. Therefore, It is my belief that, though not as strong and really even as solid (i.e. his flesh could be pierced more easily, a bone broken, etc.) as he was in the Last Alliance, he was in the same body and it was entirely the same shape (with two armes, two legs, *two* eyes, etc.), save only, of course, his one missing finger. And whoa, I just had a thought... What if Sauron recieved the Ring and, upon his touch, the Ring expands and within is formed anew his finger of old, and it mystically reconnects to his hand in its proper place? I don't know... Maybe it's just totally off and wrong. Craziness. Well, anyway, I also think that the one Eye wreathed in flame is just something that is seen in the spiritual world, as has previously been suggested. Of course, it has also been an insane thought of mine that there were, indeed, two eyes wreathed in flame in the spiritual world, but that his far-seeing powers were also nothing to do with Sauron himself, but rather the Palantîr which he possessed. Thus he would use the Palantîr to look far off, and that the image thus projected upon those who whould see would be of a great eye, the combination of the two into one (two eyes into one palantîr), more powerful than either one alone. And this image would be spiritual, and thus seen by any and all who might so happen to have an encounter with the spiritual world (i.e. a dream, a vision, a look into a palantír, and also seen by an Elf from Valinor, all of whom were in both worlds).

Finaly, Aman in a separate plain of existance? But how then could Ar-Pharazon sail _and_ land upon the shores of Aman? How then could the Elves set sail from Aman and arrive upon the shores of Middle-Earth when they were (to me) obviously within the same plain of existance the entire time? In the beginning of Eä, all of the world existed in the same number of plains (however many that be), and Aman was chosen to be the Ainur's home only because they, after many years of toiling and labouring, they just so happened to like its terrain moreso than anywhere else. Granted, many things to come after would most suredly be in both plains (i.e. the Elves that dwelt there, having learned much of the wisdom of the Valar and grown great and power and majesty, as well as strength of body and soul), but that doesn't mean that they aren't in the other plain as well. And after the fall of Numenor, did Eru just magically transport them into another plain? How then did Glorfindel come to the shores of Middle-Earth in the third age? How did the ship carrying Curumo, Olórin, Aiwendil, Alatar, and Pallando (i.e. the _Istari_) come to and arrive upon the shores of Middle-Earth? And how would the ship upon which went Frodo, Biblo, Elrond, Galadriel, and Olórin come at last to the land of Aman? It seems to me that there is a great void in this theory, but perhaps there is something you know that I do not? Ah well, whatever.


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## Red Istar (Nov 18, 2003)

The land of the Valar was indeed in a seperate plain of existence. After the fall of Numenour Eru bent the earth and raised Valinor up out of it. However, people can still go between it and Arda with the will of the Valar, at least, I believe so.


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## HLGStrider (Nov 18, 2003)

I always thought that Elves could go but no one else really could. . .though I suppose this was at the will of the Valar so basically the same thing as what you said.


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## jallan (Nov 19, 2003)

I agree with Khôr’nagan.

In his writing Tolkien makes Sauron vague figure, a looming presence whom we never see. Tolkien plays Sauron likey a bogey in a horror film where what you don’t see is worse than what you do see. A result is that we don’t see Sauron and so can’t well know what his form was. In the tale this doesn’t matter at all. It is enough that Sauron is terrible.

However in the chapter ‘The Black Gate is Closed’, Gollum uses another name for Sauron:


> But master is going to take it to Him, straight to the Black Hand, if master will go this way.


A little later we find:


> ‘That would be Minas Ithil that Isildur the son of Elendil built ’ said Frodo. ‘It was Isildur who cut off the finger of the Enemy.'
> ‘Yes, He has only four on the Black Hand, but they are enough,’ said Gollum shuddering. ‘And He hated Isildur’s city.’


It seems that Sauron’s form contains at least an eye and a hand and that the hand lacks a finger which Isildur cut off. Sauron must have (wholly or in part?) regained his old form as it was after Isildur cut off the finger.

The blackness of Sauron’s hand is also mentioned in Isildur’s scroll which Gandalf found:


> The Ring misseth, maybe, the heat of Sauron’s hand, which was black and yet burned like fire, and so Gil-galad was destroyed; ...


The emphasis on _Eye_ in the singular and _Black Hand_ in the singular has suggested to some that Sauron’s form was intended by Tolkien to be like one of the Formorians, the demons of Irish mythology, who are sometimes described as having one eye, one arm and hand, one leg and foot. Such half-persons occasionally appear in other mythologies also though not as demons so far as I know, simply as oddities of the supernatural world.

But the only surviving description of Sauron in his post-Númenorian shape appears in _Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien_, Letter 246, where Tolkien disusses Aragorn’s battle of will with Saruman for control of the Palantír and states:


> Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic.In his earlier incarnation he was able to veil his power (as Gandalf did) and could appear as a commanding figure of great strength of body and supremely royal demeanour and countenance.


This prosaic description is somewhat disappointing. But nothing here suggests Sauron was missing limbs.

It might be that the hand on which Sauron wore the One Ring was blackened by his use of its power. I think with Lantarion that the Eye more likely references Sauron’s spirit rather than his physical form, to an ability to look out and perceive things afar and to hold others under his power. Recall the third eye of Shiva in Hindu tales and the uraeus-serpent on the forehead of Egyptian kings, sometimes equated with the Eye of Re.

Remember what is said of Morgoth in _The Silmarillion_, chapter 18 concerning captive Noldor:


> ... for Morgoth used some of these for his evil purposes, and feigning to give them liberty sent them abroad, but their wills were chained to his, and they strayed only to come back to him again.


Would such power used by Sauron be perceived as the power of his Eye? Morgoth also was able to give to Húrin the power to perceive, at least at times, the dire fates of his children under Morgoth’s curse. Morgoth says:


> Therefore with my eyes thou shalt see, and with my ears thou shalt hear; ...


Might Morgoth in such circumstances reasonably have said _eye_ and _ear_ instead?

Then, there is Tolkien’s own artistic interpretation of Sauron.

Yes, J.R.R. Tolkien actually included a pictorial rendition of Sauron’s form for what was intended to be the design for the dust jacket of _The Return of the King_. This design has been used on some British editions and can be seen at The Return of the King - UK. Unfortunately the image is not very clear on this scan.

In the upper left the shape of Sauron appears, hooded with arm and hand stretched out over the central throne and tree image. Under the hood a single red eye shows, but the hood obscures the exact direction in which Sauron’s head is turned so one cannot tell whether the eye is central in Sauron’s forehead or to one side and in a normal position for a right eye.


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## Bucky (Nov 23, 2003)

Seeing that Tolkien is SUCH a stickler for minute details, I would tend to stick to my 'one eye ala Cyclops' theory until someone finds a shread of evidence to the contrary......

Remember, we are ONLY talking AFTER going down in Numenor that Tolkien coins the phrase 'The Eye Of Sauron' as Sauron wrought a new shape (and it was terrible).


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## Mouth of Sauron (Nov 29, 2003)

> I don't think Sauron was an Eye. I think he had an ordinary body, with two legs, two arms, etc. All of the references to an Eye are metaphorical -- they refer to Sauron's far-seeing power.



I agree that Sauron didn't actually take the shape of an Eye. But I don't think the references to the Eye were necessarily metaphorical.

A couple of you mentioned that it was the form he projected in the spirit world. I think this is most likely, but there might be another possibility.

Could it not have been a construct of some kind, created by dark magic, like someone might build a telescope? Perhaps it only existed in the wraith-world, and thus could only be seen by wraiths (or anyone wearing a Ring of Power, or looking into a palantir, or Galadriel's mirror, etc.)

The difference is subtle, but I like the idea of the Eye as a tool of Sauron which he created or manifested rather than a form he took - whether in the spirit-world or the physical world. Of course, it would have a psychic link to him, and so in that sense it could actually be said to have been part of him...

But a good analogy would be a real eye, the organ of sight; your eyes are part of you, yet they are not you, so if you lost them you could continue to live, you just wouldn't be able to see.

Or is that in essence what some of you were saying after all?


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## Saermegil (Nov 29, 2003)

I know there is a similar pic in this thread in a post by Luthien Séregon, but i found this a long tme ago and at the time I laughed my head off(as I did when I saw the Luthien's pic). I believe it was pre-PJ.

So...knock yourself out

The website was The Tolkien Sarcasm page (I don't remember the URL). Just pop "Tolkien Sarcasm" into your search engine.


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## Mouth of Sauron (Nov 29, 2003)

That's one of my favourite websites.


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## Red Istar (Dec 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Saermegil _
> *I know there is a similar pic in this thread in a post by Luthien Séregon, but i found this a long tme ago and at the time I laughed my head off(as I did when I saw the Luthien's pic). I believe it was pre-PJ.
> 
> So...knock yourself out
> ...



LoL... that's too funny...  

Interesting idea, Mouth of Sauron.


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## grendel (Dec 10, 2003)

The passage I keep thinking about is when Pippin looked into the palantir: "Then he came. He did not speak so that I could hear words. He just looked, and I understood." It also said that he (Sauron) laughed and gloated.

It seems to me from this as though Pippin saw a face, a person, and I keep wondering what he looked like.

Than much later, when I read The Silmarillion, and the fall of Numenor, it said that Sauron's body was destroyed and his spirit could only take unpleasant forms. So I guess it's completely up to our imagination.


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