# Aragorn's failure



## Ithrynluin (Nov 22, 2004)

Did Strider fail in protecting Frodo & co., seeing how Frodo was stabbed and almost died from the wound?

Or did he do rather well under the circumstances, being a lone guardian of the halflings against the nine riders?


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## Astaldo (Nov 22, 2004)

I think Aragorn made it very well. After all as you said he was the only one capable to fight b ack the Nazgul. Sam maybe wanted to fight them but of course he couldn't. My opinion is that he did very well.


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## Thorin (Nov 22, 2004)

Frodo's problem was that he put on the ring making him more vulnerable to the wraith's world. I believe that by putting on the ring, Frodo's will and ability to resist any sort of onslaught was inhibited. Granted the wraiths were coming toward him, but by putting on the ring, I think Frodo damaged any hope of time for Aragorn to come and help him.

In other words, Frodo's impulsive hobbit-ness did him in.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Nov 22, 2004)

Ithrynluin said:


> Did Strider fail in protecting Frodo & co., seeing how Frodo was stabbed and almost died from the wound?
> 
> Or did he do rather well under the circumstances, being a lone guardian of the halflings against the nine riders?



I think this is a moot issue, since the story is exactly as Tolkien intended it to be.

Barley


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## Valandil (Nov 22, 2004)

Perhaps Aragorn's biggest failing was even TAKING them to Weathertop. Was it reall important enough to get a good look around to risk going to a place where they might logically be expected to show up? Why not just continue to skirt far around to the north, cross the downs, then on to Rivendell? (or - cross the road well enough west of Weathertop - if the south side indeed contained more trees, etc for concealing movement.

Of course... that would've made the story a bit more boring.


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## Ithrynluin (Nov 22, 2004)

Barliman Butterbur said:


> I think this is a moot issue, since the story is exactly as Tolkien intended it to be.



What does that have to do with _anything_? Certainly the story is as the professor designed it to be, so that must mean that discussing any aspect of it is a moot point?  Funny how others don't find it a moot point but are more than happy to delve into the motives and symbolism behind the story.



Valandil said:


> Perhaps Aragorn's biggest failing was even TAKING them to Weathertop. Was it reall important enough to get a good look around to risk going to a place where they might logically be expected to show up? Why not just continue to skirt far around to the north, cross the downs, then on to Rivendell? (or - cross the road well enough west of Weathertop - if the south side indeed contained more trees, etc for concealing movement.



That is an interesting point. Did Aragorn gain anything from climbing Weathertop, aside from finding some few subtle hints of Gandalf's presence there? If he was a skilled ranger, he must have scoured the country numerous times, so what exactly was crucial in reaching Weathertop?


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## soltan gris (Nov 22, 2004)

Aragorn was desperate - it's that simple. He was the lone guardian of the inexperienced hobbits, the Nine were after them, and what is worse, he didn't have any idea where exactly their enemies were. Moreover he knew that the Nine had human allies (the attack in Bree) and possibly animal spies. And Gandalf had dissapeared without trace. 

So he really needed some reconaissance information BADLY. In the middle of all the hiding and running the group witnesses the lightning spectacle at Weathertop - now it's natural for him to think immediately of Gandalf. What if the wizard had battled the Nine? (and he did in fact)) What if he needed help, or he had left some message for them? Weathertop was his best chance to meet Gandalf and survive the journey to Imladhris. 
After all, it was only a matter of time for their pursuers to find the hobbits and confront them. Wether this happened at Weathertop or somewhere else was of no importance as long as the result remained the same. I guess you can call this incident bad luck)))))))))))


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## Eledhwen (Nov 22, 2004)

I was wondering why Strider took the course he did from Bree. By his own admission Bill Ferney would have watched where they left the road. He also expected the world and his mate to make for Weathertop, so why go that way? Why not plot a course between the East-West Road and the South Downs? Maybe Strider thought that land was too open, but all the concealment in the world wouldn't help if they were making for Weathertop. Should they not have just made for the last bridge and Rivendell from South of the road, or made a feint of going off the road to the north, then crossing back to the south? All pointless speculation, I know, but I've written it now so I'm jolly well going to post it.


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## Beorn (Nov 22, 2004)

I don't believe Strider was ever really _charged_ with guiding them: he took it upon himself:



The Prancing Pony said:


> 'Well?' said Strider, when he reappeared. 'Why did you do that? Worse than anything your friends could have said! You have put your foot in it! Or should I say your finger?'
> 'I don't know what you mean,' said Frodo, annoyed and alarmed.
> 'Oh yes, you do,' answered Strider; 'but we had better wait until the uproar has died down. Then, if you please, Mr. Baggins, I should like a quiet word with you.'
> 'What about?' asked Frodo, ignoring the sudden use of his proper name.
> 'A matter of some importance - to us both,' answered Strider, looking Frodo in the eye. 'You may hear something to your advantage.'



...


Strider said:


> Frodo, Pippin, and Sam made their way back to the parlour. There was no light. Merry was not there, and the fire had burned low. It was not until they had puffed up the embers into a blaze and thrown on a couple of faggots that they discovered Strider had come with them. There he was calmly sitting in a chair by the door!





Strider said:


> You may meet a friend of mine on the Road: a Man, lean, dark, tall, by some called Strider. He knows our business and will help you.



Gandalf used 'may,' indicating that it wasn't guaranteed.

Strider took the task of getting them to Rivendell upon himself. Frodo knew he was going to Rivendell, Strider merely helped. Although Frodo likely would not have gotten ther without Strider's help, I find it hard to fault someone who volunteers to help.

- Mike


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## HLGStrider (Nov 23, 2004)

Aragorn's 'charge" lies not in what was ordered by others but in what was sworn by himself. 

_I am Aragorn son of Arathorn, and if by life or death I can save you, I will._

I just did that from memory, so my wording may be off, but that was the general gist of it, was it not?

However, I would like to make a few seperate points.

_Weathertop: _If Aragorn has a weakness as a guide, it is his obvious love of site seeing! He is always taking detours for one reason or another, to see something, to consult someone, to give him time to consider a bit longer. I get the idea that his trip down the river was just an attempt to see those dear statues of his ancestors. I can just see him standing in the back of the boat, snapping pictures, and saying to the rest of the fellowship, "Pull over so I can find a souvenier shop! I need to send Arwen a postcard of this!"

Admittedly, he is not the only one with this weakness. Gimli and Legolas are both susceptible with their forests and caves. 

_The Ring:_ I think Thorin is right. Without Frodo wearing the ring Aragorn would have had a chance at fulfilling his vow--but not by surviving. He would have had a sporting chance of realizing the "by death" part. The chip in Frodo's shoulder, if you will, deceived the Ring Wraiths into thinking they had suceeded and could just wait and avoid the Tall Dark and Handsome one with the Flaming Brands. If not they would have probably kept coming, and I don't think Aragorn could have withstood five Wraiths for very long with only a Hobbit at his side.
_The Vow's Fulfillment_: Arguably aided by this chip, Aragorn did perform a death defying journey of getting said Hobbit to Rivendell. He made a few gaffs along the way, but he got it done, and I don't think we could have expected him to keep Frodo any safer.


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## Arvedui (Nov 23, 2004)

I think that Aragaorn did rather well under the circumstances. The Hobbits had no idea what they were really up against, and in fact Weathertop was the easiest defensible piece of terrain in the area. As long as they could have refrained from making any fires, that is. But that wouldn't have happened if Aragorn was present at the moment, which he wasn't.
Aragorn was off scouting the road ahead. With whatever little information he had about the whereabouts of the opposition, such reconnaisance was nescesarry.


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## Eledhwen (Nov 23, 2004)

Arvedui said:


> As long as they could have refrained from making any fires, that is. But that wouldn't have happened if Aragorn was present at the moment, which he wasn't.


Are you getting the film and the book mixed up? In the book no fires were lit until the presence of the Nazgul was ascertained. then Strider said "There is little shelter or defence here, but fire shall serve for both. ... these Riders do not love it, and fear those who wield it. Fire is our friend in the wilderness." Sam, however, seems to doubt Strider's wisdom in this.


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## Valandil (Nov 23, 2004)

HLGStrider said:


> ... He made a few gaffs along the way, but he got it done, and I don't think we could have expected him to keep Frodo any safer.



You just can't handle any criticism of 'your man', eh??   

Well... like I implied, if Aragorn HAD managed to lead them from Bree to Rivendell without mishap, we probably would have all lost interest in the story at that point - and never discovered any more about Middle-earth!


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## Arvedui (Nov 24, 2004)

Eledhwen said:


> Are you getting the film and the book mixed up? In the book no fires were lit until the presence of the Nazgul was ascertained. then Strider said "There is little shelter or defence here, but fire shall serve for both. ... these Riders do not love it, and fear those who wield it. Fire is our friend in the wilderness." Sam, however, seems to doubt Strider's wisdom in this.


Of course. You're right, I'm wrong.  
(I _really _ hate PJ now).


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## Eledhwen (Nov 24, 2004)

Arvedui said:


> Of course. You're right, I'm wrong.
> (I _really _ hate PJ now).


I hate to consider how many times I've been about to make a point in these threads, but found myself having to check the book to make sure I am not remembering a PJ-ism instead of Tolkien! Usually I remember right, but ever now and then.... 

I did have problems with the film Aragorn stabbing a Nazgul in the face with a firebrand - a similar action to Eowyn's blow with her sword; but the book comes to the rescue of the film action, with a fantastic passage about Merry's part in the Witch King's death (I hope folk do not mind this slight trespass from the subject):


> "So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dunedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will."


Without Merry's blow, Eowyn would not have been able to kill the Witch King.

As for reasons to go to Weathertop, Aragorn suspected that Gandalf had been there and was in danger; the signs of battle had his hallmarks on it. Remember, Gandalf was missing! They were not even sure he was alive. The unknown plays on the imagination, and is a powerful motivator. Gandalf could have prevailed, but lain hurt on Weathertop - a grievous thought that would need investigating. Or maybe he would leave information there (G3) that would provide information. With four pint-sized hobbits and a pony, it was probable that other routes would have been impassible, or far too slow to contemplate.

In Tolkien's criticism of Zimmerman's storyline, he points out that Weathertop was a battle explicitly fought without weapons. This makes me think that Tolkien had a motive in having them fight with such nakedness of weaponry, shelter and help, and still prevail. This was the place where we first discovered that the Nazgul have fears, and are therefore vulnerable themselves. By the time we get to Rivendell, we know that they fear both fire and water. Eventually we learn that their chief weapon is fear itself, without which they are somewhat less powerful than a man (or hobbit) of courage, as Merry's bravery at Pelennor shows.

Although we might have doubts about Strider's wisdom in going to Weathertop, I feel that as a character development device, for both Frodo and the Nazgul, it works very well.


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## Gildor (Nov 24, 2004)

Weathertop was the only nearby landmark and as Aragorn said, Gandalf was likely to make for it himself if he had been following. It was a dangerous place to go since it was so obvious, but the hope of finding some sign from Gandalf or maybe meeting up with him there was too great to just pass by. Fortune had it that they had just missed Gandalf and instead found the Riders, but still the Riders would have found them soon anyway, and at least on Weathertop they were as prepared as they could be for it and not caught unawares in the wild.


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## Bombadil (Nov 24, 2004)

Gildor said:


> Weathertop was the only nearby landmark and as Aragorn said, Gandalf was likely to make for it himself if he had been following. It was a dangerous place to go since it was so obvious, but the hope of finding some sign from Gandalf or maybe meeting up with him there was too great to just pass by.


I have read all the posts in this thread and I think this one hits the mark.
the main problem in Wathertop was that Aragorn had to deal with the ringwraiths AND the scared hobbits and unable to deal with both Frodo was stabbed. and I don't consider this to be Aragorn's failure, but an ill fate that they already knew of. they wouldn´t have gone very far before the black riders caught up with them.


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## JPMaximilian (Nov 28, 2004)

Eledhwen said:


> He also expected the world and his mate to make for Weathertop, so why go that way?



What does that mean? The world and his mate?


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## Ithrynluin (Nov 29, 2004)

JPMaximilian said:


> What does that mean? The world and his mate?



I think it's an expression meaning 'pretty much every person imaginable' was heading for Weathertop.


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