# Cirdan



## Helm (Dec 13, 2010)

Did Cirdan sail at the same time as Frodo, Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel, and Gildor?


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## Elthir (Dec 14, 2010)

It's not stated specifically anywhere, if I recall correctly.

For myself, I think Cirdan did sail at this point.

There's a quote somewhere in Appendix A about a 'last ship' -- can't recall the exact wording but some raise it to suggest Cirdan waited beyond this point... but there's a statement at the end of _Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age_ that _might_ indicate _this_ ship (the ship that Gandalf and others took) could be called the last ship, despite that it technically need not be the 'last' ever.

If memory serves that is!


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## Alcuin (Dec 14, 2010)

If Círdan left with Elrond, Galadriel, and Gandalf, then he left before Celeborn. I always assumed that Círdan stayed behind, maybe well into the Fourth Age. But as *Galin* points out, there is nothing written about when Círdan left Middle-earth.


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## Peeping-Tom (Jan 10, 2011)

_About Círdan....._

_The following is taken/stolen from the ValarGuild...._

http://valarguild.org/varda/Tolkien/encyc/papers/Cirdan.htm



> _Fourth Era_
> _After the War of the Rings the ringbearers join to depart for Valinor and find Círdan awaiting them at the Grey Havens “and took the ship that Círdan had made ready. In the twilight of the autumn it sailed out of Mithlond, until the seas of the Bent World fell beneath it, and the winds of the round sky troubled it no more, and borne into the Ancient West, and an end was come for the Eldar of story and of song.”_
> _Círdan himself did not take that ship. It is told that he went to Aman later, accompanying the Last of the Ringbearers, the honorable Sam Gamgee, taking the very last ship from Mithlond. _
> _And then the Grey Havens were silent and empty._
> ...


 

_I myself can not recall any JRRT writings that specify the final departure of Círdan._
_(only assumptions and guesswork...)_


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## Elthir (Jan 10, 2011)

Yes, that's not accurate in my opinion.

It's not known for certain if Cirdan sailed with Gandalf and Elrond or not -- so we can't just say as a fact that he didn't -- nor can we say 'it is told' that he went to Aman later.

It is not told. And if he sailed with Gandalf then it wouldn't have been later :*)


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## Starflower (Jan 11, 2011)

Well Círdan was one of the original Eldar, he awoke at Cuivienen. So, it would seem appropriate that he stayed behind as there were still Elves living in Middle-earth who would have needed passage to the West.


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## Peeping-Tom (Jan 11, 2011)

Starflower said:


> Well Círdan was one of the original Eldar, he awoke at Cuivienen. So, it would seem appropriate that he stayed behind as there were still Elves living in Middle-earth who would have needed passage to the West.


 

I can't see, where you find any writings, by JRRT, about Círdan's origin.
There are many other threads about Círdan in TTF, where the majority seems to believe that he is NOT one of the originally 72 male Elfs. Again Tolkien leaves us to assume and guess...but this is NOT the thread for it!

But I do agree with you...
I too believe that he stayed to sail the very last Elf to the West...
(Hmm...Why Legolas had to make his own ship, I don't know...)



"Do you have to be sober, to use the straight way?" :*confused:


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## Elthir (Jan 11, 2011)

I don't see why Cirdan would have stayed to the very last Elf. How could he even know who was surely 'last' (foresight? see below), but moreover, why would he need to, or want to? _Of The Rings Of Power_ echoes Cirdan's statement to Gandalf in _The Lord of the Rings_ appendices.



> '... and I will dwell by the grey shores, guarding the Havens until the last ship sails. Then I will await thee.'


 
Again 'thee' here is Gandalf, but what about this 'last ship'?



> 'White was that ship and long was it a-building, and long it awaited the end of which Cirdan had spoken. But when all these things were done, and the heir of Isildur had taken up the lordship of Men, and the dominion of the West had passed to him (...) and Master Elrond took there the ship that Cirdan had made ready.'


 
This ship is the 'last ship' in my opinion, although some appear to have a problem with _last_ because it isn't technically the last ship ever. Still, whatever you call it, and for whatever reason (the last ship of major historical note? since it marked the passing of very notable figures leaving Middle-earth together in an 'end of era' sort of way?),...

... it seems to me that Cirdan is guarding the Havens until _this_ ship sails, as this is the ship that awaited such things as Aragorn taking up the throne and so on (see the fuller quote in the book).

But then again (Appendix A):



> '(...) At the Grey Havens dwelt Cirdan the Shipwright, and some say he dwells there still, until the Last Ship sails into the West. In the days of the Kings most of the High Elves that still lingered in Middle-earth dwelt with Cirdan or in the seaward lands of Lindon. If any now remain they are few.'


 
I'm not sure of the timing of this statement (the whole passage actually), in other words, who wrote it and when was it written (what time does this 'now' refer to)? I have yet to investigate this one in detail to see if something more might be said here (anyone?). And there is the element of 'some say' too. 

But in any event, there is also the element of Cirdan's great desire in the First Age:



> 'Nonetheless it is said that for love of his kin and allegiance Cirdan was the leader of those who sought longest for Elwe when he was lost and did not come to the shores to depart from Middle-earth. Thus he forfeited the fulfilment of his greatest desire: to see the Blessed Realm and find again there Olwe and his own nearest kin.'
> 
> JRRT, Cirdan, Last Writings


 
Cirdan even states: 'I will follow that light [of Eressea], alone if none will come with me, for the ship that I have been building is now almost ready.' But he receives a message from the Valar to stay, and obeys, and by implication of his seeming vision (described in the text), this was a message to abide because he would be involved in building Earendil's ship.

Of course, if the argument is that Cirdan would surely want to pass Oversea once Earendil's ship was finished and Morgoth defeated, why then stay at the end of the First Age?

The late text concerning Cirdan also notes that: 



> 'From that night onwards Cirdan received a foresight touching all matters of importance, beyond the measure of all other Elves upon Middle-earth.' [compare to Appendix B: 'For Cirdan saw further and deeper than any other in Middle-earth, and he welcomed Mithrandir at the Grey Havens, knowing whence he came and whither he would return.']


 
So it might be argued that he remained because he knew, even if in some vague way, that he had a role to play in Middle-earthian conflicts to come, and especially in the aiding of Gandalf (ultimately surrendering a Ring of Power to him), and so in the ultimate defeat of Sauron. And thus one might say that he considered his task completed after this incarnation of evil (Sauron) was finally overthrown.

There is also the implication (although the timing was not known) that when Celeborn sailed: with him went the last living memory of the Elder Days. Cirdan could be said to have had living memory of the Elder Days of course, but was he already gone in any case? And couldn't Treebreard, for instance, also be said to have living memory of the Elder Days?


It's hard to raise a compelling argument here, but again I see no great reason for Cirdan to have desired to await some vague 'last ship' -- awaiting (in theory) the passing of some of the Silvan Elves from Mirkwood or something. But then, as also noted already, one could argue he maybe had a foresight that told him when the 'last Elf' would leave!


That said, I think there is a certain beauty behind the idea of Cirdan remaining for all Elves who would ever seek the Sea. It's a nice concept in itself, and I think its attractiveness is part of what sways interpretations on this issue. I'm sometimes almost swayed there myself, or like to say that both ideas are 'textually possible' so to speak, even if both are not possible internally (that is, obviously he can't both have sailed with Gandalf and remained for every last Elf seeking the West).

But as of today anyway, I still lean a bit toward: Cirdan sailed with Gandalf :*)


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## Alcuin (Jan 12, 2011)

Well, if “last” is _last_, Legolas built a white ship in Ithilien after Aragorn died and sailed (with Gimli) to the Uttermost West. Did Círdan remain in Middle-earth beyond this, or is he exempt from this example because Legolas built his own ship? (I mean, just to carry on the conversation…)

And did any other Elves leave after that?


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## adpirtle (Feb 8, 2011)

We know that the Ring Bearers' ship wasn't the last to sail from the Havens since Sam sailed after his wife died, so if Cirdan was sailing with the 'last ship' he stayed at least that long. But there's nothing in Tolkien's writing to say exactly when Cirdan left, so I think the proper answer is "idunnoh"...


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## Edheldae (Feb 8, 2011)

I never really thought of the Last Ship as the literally last ship to leave Middle Earth headed for Aman. Rather, that the Last Ship represented the end of an era, one where for the most part elves with memory of the Elder Days fled the Shadow and sought refuge by getting the Havens and sailing West. So to my reading, the Last Ship was when the Ring-Bearers who had used and created and lost, or taken serious wounding resisting the Shadow, left.

I suspect the diminishing of the rings when the One was destroyed took something out of all three main bearers. Of course Frodo had his own journey. But anyway, the Last Ship represented the end of that period of flight from the Shadow, and Cirdan held a Last Ship for the last great refugees of that movement - Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond and Frodo in Arwen's place.

That doesn't preclude other like Legolas seeking Valinor, or Celeborn eventually making his way west but these were a differently motivated travel.

Just some thoughts so feel free to dissect. :*)


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