# Differences between Arnor and Gondor



## Eriol (Jun 14, 2003)

Do you suppose there is any reason (beyond story-telling reasons, of course) for the difference in the history of Arnor and Gondor? They both began as free realms under Numenorean rule, and their territory was not so different in size at the beginning; Gondor had more Palantíri, but on the other hand Arnor had more contact with elvish strongholds (Lindon, Imladris).

A way to phrase my question is -- could an independent onlooker at T.A. 10 predict the future of the two realms, and how Gondor would rise in power and strength while Arnor would dwindle and fade? And if yes, why? What was the feature that enabled Gondor to grow while Arnor waned?

I have some thoughts, but I'd like to hear yours...


----------



## Celebthôl (Jun 14, 2003)

My best guess would be Mordor and Minas Tirith,

Mordor was the chiefest threat to Middle Earth, and if Minas Tirith fell into ruin like realm of the north, the it would be the end of good in Middle Earth...

Also the fact that Arnor had no enemies really and had time to fight with itself, whereas Gondor had the main threat or Mordor and Umbar etc to deal with and couldnt fight within itself as much...only once if i recall (the kin-strife)...


----------



## Beleg (Jun 15, 2003)

> A way to phrase my question is -- could an independent onlooker at T.A. 10 predict the future of the two realms, and how Gondor would rise in power and strength while Arnor would dwindle and fade?



Yes, ever the population of Arnor had been less, while Gondor due to it's rather mild climate was the abode of many people, specially men. Meanwhile Arnor was a still country, it had no way of increasing their land mass, since they were bound by the Misty Mountains on the East, and the sea on the West and the North. 
Meanwhile Gondor was a more open land and had more opportunities of increasing it's landmass. 
Arnor as a seperate Kingdom itself wouldn't have lasted for long, (as it was shown) due to it's limited population, limited chances of expansion and severer climate. 

And In T.A 10, Sauron was thought to be vanquished forever and the Ulairi had disappeared. 

The reasons why the two Kingdom's both ended up in different situations.

*Disadvantages for Arnor* 

1. Rough Terrian.
2. Severe Climate
3. Lack of Mannish Population.
4. No chance for expansion.


Since their was no chance for expansion and no threat from any enemies people had a lot of free time and liesure was plenty. 
Ideal condition for Conspiracies.


----------



## Inderjit S (Jun 15, 2003)

> Also the fact that Arnor had no enemies really



The Witcking/Angmar. 

I think the main disavantage for Arnor was that they had a division of kingdoms, which led to kinstrifes and the war with Angmar.

I think another factor was the ravaging of Eriador in the War of Sauron and the Elves. Arnor and Eriador would've had a huge indeginous population, since there were more faithful Numenoreans settlements there or thereabouts and several other tribes, such as the Borrim and the followes of Bereg plus the Marachians and Beorians who never went to Beleriand (_Of Dwarves and Men_ states that the vanguards reached Beleriand, so there would've been huge amounts of people in Eriador compared to Gondor, where the only indeginous population was small and amde up mainly of the Haladin who later became the Dunlendings and some Druedian.


----------



## Eriol (Jun 15, 2003)

hmm... in our own world China lived quite well for many centuries without territorial expansion. Is imperialism the only way for a kingdom to prosper?

Terrain and climate can have a role. But I don't think it is that important, and surely Arnor has some territorial advantages. For instance, they have Dwarves, and this means mines, metals, and wealth. 

I could give an advantage to Gondor on this, but not as big as it turned out to be.

And then we have population. I agree this is very important, but it really begs the question. Why did Arnor have a smaller population? Remember, they had 1000 years of peace before Angmar appeared. This question goes through the population statistics of Eriador through time, and Inderjit has addressed them some. Was Eriador always a wasteland? It seems not. So why 1000 years of peace were not enough?

The division is obviously harmful, but -- is there any reason why the kingdoms could not be reunified? It is obvious that Rhudaur, for instance, became evil -- could not Cardolan and Arthedain have prevented it and occupied the area?

It seems that the ravages in Arnor were not countered, ever, while Gondor did some smart moves (e.g., Cirion and Eorl) to withstand the passage of time).

Why did Arnor simply accept decay?


----------



## Beleg (Jun 15, 2003)

> hmm... in our own world China lived quite well for many centuries without territorial expansion. Is imperialism the only way for a kingdom to prosper?



Perhaps I forgot to say that the four reasons I pointed out are inter-related. China is a big country with lots of population and to say that the Chinese lived through the centuries without any change would be wrong. 
During the 16 to 19th centuries Chinese Empire continuously dwindled and lots of their lands were swamped by the Biritish imprealists and Russian Tsar's. 



> Is imperialism the only way for a kingdom to prosper?



In some cases yes. Spcially If the country is a very small one and doesn't have enough population to maintain it's soverign state which was the case with Arnor.



> For instance, they have Dwarves, and this means mines, metals, and wealth.



The race of Dwarves are pretty miser and I cant really see them giving away lots of good without getting something back as an exchange. Also money cannot produce people. Metal would be off no use if there are not enough people. 



> Why did Arnor have a smaller population?



During the Dark Age, most of the Arnor was filled with forests, as is explained by the Silmarillion and Fangorn's song. Most of the population is wiped during the wars of Elves and Sauron. What is left of the people retreat towards Rhov and form settlements in the vales of Anduin and further east towards the south and East of Mirkwood. So during the later part of the first age hardly a few natives would have dwelt in Eriador and most of the population would consist of people of mixed (Numenorean+Local) and Numenorean blood.
Of those many were slain during the seige of Brad-Dur and the battle that preceeded it. Many also were slain in Gladden Fields. 
Therefore the Northern Kingdom had a limited population on their disposal. Only the cities of Anuminas, Fornost, Barrow Downs and a few towns in Rhudaur, accompanied by the Hill Men living their and the city states of Bree and Shire would be at their disposal. The Ice Men of Forcangel were a race apart and I don't think they meddled in the affairs of Eriador. 
During the six hundred years of peace or so, whatever population increase that happened was fed to the Civil War and the allready diminished population became more dwindled. 
In Arnor during the third age, following races Dwelt.
Men of Bree.
Numenoreans and men of Mixed Blood.
Occasional wanderes of Enedwaith and the upper region. 
The Hill Men
The Ice Men.


Of this population, many were slain during the Civil wars, and infact Cardolan was wiped out entirely and so were the forces of Angmar and Rhuadar. 
Most of the Numenorean settlements were made in South. 
Thus most of the mixed Numenorean's would be found there and their numbers would be much greater the Arnorians. 


Of this population, many were slain during the Civil wars, and infact Cardolan was wiped out entirely and so were the forces of Angmar and Rhuadar.


> Was Eriador always a wasteland? It seems not.



No, not always. Infact It never was a complete wasteland.



> So why 1000 years of peace were not enough?


I can only say that the population of Arnor was so dwindled during the Last Alliance that the population mounted very slowly.
It may also be that most of the Men of Arnor were lost in Gladden Fields and Dagorlad, this would be a highly unconsistant percentage between Men and Woman. And perhaps since the Numenorean's had had their grooming from elves, who only took one spouse, they also followed that rule, and infact the woman that married during that time were very few, due to the scarcity of Men. 


> It is obvious that Rhudaur, for instance, became evil -- could not Cardolan and Arthedain have prevented it and occupied the area?



What do you think they tried to do? They tried to overcome Rhudar. But Rhuadar had the support of the Witch King of Angmar, who doubtless also had the support of many servants of Sauron that had gone underground after the diminishment of Sauron but came back again on the beck and call of Witch King.
Perhaps Other Ulairi were at work also?
Perhaps the power of Artherdain was not enough to destroy Rhudaur, since these people lived in the Northern Most regions of Eriador.


> Why did Arnor simply accept decay?



How can you say that? What do you think Arnor should have done to prevent decay? The decay was Inevitable, The Kingdom from the start should have been kept United. 
For Histories and Prophecies tell us that whenever the Kingdom's were united It ended up as a great plus for them. 
Take the Kingdom of Elessar and the Prophecy of Malbeth...

The Arnorian's tried to counter the ravages. They asked for help from their Southern Off-spring. The Elves of Eriador helped them...but due to their diminished population and internal strife (which Witch King used to his great benifit) it was not possible for the Northern Dunedain to continue their Kingdom.


----------



## Inderjit S (Jun 15, 2003)

Maybe Elendil's Arnorian army ahd suffered a bigger loss in the Last Alliance? 



> It seems that the ravages in Arnor were not countered, ever, while Gondor did some smart moves (e.g., Cirion and Eorl) to withstand the passage of time).



Yes true but Arnor also had enough similar 'alliances' with Rivendell and Mithlond. They tried to drive away Angmar's forces on several occasions, but were thwarted. Also found this interesting comment on Araval the 23rd Arnorian king;




> With the help of Lindon he won a victory over Angmar in 1851, and sought to re-occupy Cardolan, but the evil wights terrify all who dwell near


 _HoME 12; Heirs of Elendil_ 

So Arnor had other supernatural forces that halted their power as well. 



> Terrain and climate can have a role. But I don't think it is that important, and surely Arnor has some territorial advantages. For instance, they have Dwarves, and this means mines, metals, and wealth.



Indeed, esp. with Khazad-dum in full power for a long time during Arnor's stability, at a time in which Khazad-dum was at it's greatest strength it would've been a great help, as we can see from _Of Dwarves and Men_ (HoME 12) the Longbeards had established alliances with the Marachian tribes in Eriador and Rhovanion and I see no reason why a small scale version of this couldn't have taken place in the T.A. 

I doubt whether the climate would've been too bad, I believe since Tolkien mentions in his letters that Minas Tirith is in the vicinity of Florence, Italy, that Arnor is around about the lattitude of northern Europe and was very much habitable. 



> Why did Arnor simply accept decay?



Pride of the princes maybe? They wanted a independent realm to rule, rather then share a realm.


----------



## Lantarion (Jun 15, 2003)

> Maybe Elendil's Arnorian army ahd suffered a bigger loss in the Last Alliance?


Perhaps, but would it have affected the general populace that much? I mean, were the warriors of Arnor in the Battle of the Last Alliance composed of civilians or trained soldiers, or both? 
I agree with Beleg that the terrain and general living conditions as 'far north' as Arnor was positioned were probably a large affector. After all, Gondor was ideally positioned among between the Ered Nimrais and the river Anduin, giving it an excelent strategic position. Also with the river so close by it must have provided the surrounding areas with lush greenery and most certainly also fertile lands and fields for farming &c. I'd say that the only negative factor, geographically, was the relatively close proximity of Mordor to the East (and indeed this proved to be devastating; i.e. the Great Plague). 
But Beleg, you cite the affector of "No chance for expansion" as one of the four reasons contributing to the decay of Arnor. But as far as I can see Gondor was quite confined also. When it had control of the areas to the south of the Ered Nimrais, where else could it turn to? And Gondor also lost a lot of land (even if it was on friendly terms) when they donated Calenardhon to the Rohirrim.


----------



## Eriol (Jun 15, 2003)

All that you are saying is true, but they still are a consequence of the Arnorian decay, and not the cause:



> *From Appendix B, The Tale of Years*
> 
> c. 1300 Evil things begin to multiply again. Orcs increase in the Misty Mountains and attack the Dwarves. The Nazgûl reappear. _The chief of these comes north to Angmar_. The Periannath migrate westward; many settle at Bree



Note the date. 1300 years!

Also at the Tale of Years we see the date of the division of Arnor, T.A. 861. So we have 8 centuries of peace in a unified kingdom with little to no enemies. Compare these 8 centuries with Gondor. Gondor is the one with a lot of enemies at this time. At that time the line of the Ship-kings was beginning, in a century they would take over Umbar... Gondor was quite powerful, while Arnor was already decaying.

From Appendix A:



> The lord of that land [Angmar] was known as the Witch-king, but it was not known until later that he was indeed the chief of the Ringwraiths, who came north with the purpose of destroying the Dúnedain in Arnor, _seeing hope in their disunion, while Gondor was strong_



Angmar was a consequence of prior disunion. The disunion was a consequence of a weak realm. 

Why the weak realm?

I have a strong feeling that it is related to populational problems. But why the populational problems, then?

So far this is just a "scientific inquiry", so to speak. If we go into the theology of it, it seems clear that Eru has a fondness for the theme of the "hidden king". The _purpose_ of Arnor's decay was probably to safeguard the line of Isildur in the shadows until Sauron reappeared. 

But what was the material reason, the cause, of the decay?


----------



## Inderjit S (Jun 15, 2003)

> Perhaps, but would it have affected the general populace that much? I mean, were the warriors of Arnor in the Battle of the Last Alliance composed of civilians or trained soldiers, or both?



Well they stopped for three years training in Rivendell so I would think a bit of both. Remember the Last Alliance would need as many men as possible. For example do you really think that all the Rohhirim were trained fighters, yet they went to Helm's Deep etc and this is the case in many wars, civilians are drafted in.

They needed ALL the strength they could muster. 




> I agree with Beleg that the terrain and general living conditions as 'far north' as Arnor was positioned were probably a large affector



How? Eriador was evidently a better climate for Men, Elves and Dwarves because so many lived there or in surronding areas or in that latitude, such as Erebor. The terrain was evidently very good. The Marahcians were able to graze many animals when passing through also note Hallacar's song to Ancalime about the sheep flocks in Eriador. The Shire had good weather and was once part of Arnor's' realm (Being a former hunting ground for the King). The terrain also had many forests, plains and mountains, a brilliant mixture geogrpahy wise. 



> I'd say that the only negative factor, geographically, was the relatively close proximity of Mordor to the East (and indeed this proved to be devastating; i.e. the Great Plague



I believe the great plague came from Rhun not Mordor, but I believe it is stated that the plague became less severe as it came further North. 



> And Gondor also lost a lot of land (even if it was on friendly terms) when they donated Calenardhon to the Rohirrim



They also had further lands to the South, such as South Gondor which was a 'debatable and desert land' because of the kin-strife and it's after effects. 



> The purpose of Arnor's decay was probably to safeguard the line of Isildur in the shadows until Sauron reappeared



But Malbeth claims that if Arvedui is elected king of Gondor+Arnor then a might realm will arise, but this was only a prophecy. Also can you really see Eru interfering in men's lives?


----------



## Eriol (Jun 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Inderjit S _
> *But Malbeth claims that if Arvedui is elected king of Gondor+Arnor then a might realm will arise, but this was only a prophecy. Also can you really see Eru interfering in men's lives? *



Well, yes... just as he meddles in everything else . Eru governs the world so that "all things concur to the glory of his creation". He would not mess with free will, and undoubtedly if Arvedui had been accepted a lot of misgivings would have been averted, but Eru governs history nonetheless.

Anyway, Eru would govern it through ordinary cause and effect, and therefore we should be able to discern the cause of Arnor's decay.


I was hoping for some comments about the populational structure of the kingdoms. I think it is safe to say that Numenoreans were a minority in both, with the "indigenous population" composing the bulk of it. Now, indigenous population = short-lived, quick breeding population. So I can't see any plain reason why Arnor would not have a large, prosperous population in T.A. 800.

So, people who have read PoME, any info on that?


----------



## Lhunithiliel (Jun 16, 2003)

An interesting topic! 

I just thought that in a way it is related to this one


----------



## Beleg (Jun 16, 2003)

*Re: Difference between Arnor and Gondor*



> But Beleg, you cite the affector of "No chance for expansion" as one of the four reasons contributing to the decay of Arnor. But as far as I can see Gondor was quite confined also. When it had control of the areas to the south of the Ered Nimrais, where else could it turn to? And Gondor also lost a lot of land (even if it was on friendly terms) when they donated Calenardhon to the Rohirrim.


My dear Lantarion, perhaps, mayhaps you are forgetting that some country known by the Name of Harad was also present south of Gondor and to which Gondor's boundries directly met. The geographical aspects of the Gondor's Southern border were plain enough and provided no hinderance for assualts upon the Southern Teritory. 
Upon the east, on the other side of the Anduin, lay the Brown lands, a vast encampment, presumbly unmanned and a famous place for eastern attackers to assualt Gondor. 
Gondor ruled Mordor, and Mordor was only encamped from it's Northern and Western Sides. That also provided the Numenorean's/Gondorians with a chance of expansioning inwards towards Khand. 
I don't see what the loss of land has to do with this topic. The Northern Boundries of Gondor were mostly secure, up until the coming of the Rohirrim and the rule of Saruman. The Dunelandings feared the Tall, wrathful Numenorean's and never tried to hinder their cause, until or unless they had great support of other enemies, which was difficult to gain so northwards in Gondor. 




> Perhaps, but would it have affected the general populace that much? I mean, were the warriors of Arnor in the Battle of the Last Alliance composed of civilians or trained soldiers, or both?


Elendil and Gil-Galad needed strength, in numbers and in arms, so the most logical choice to me seems that every able men, whether he be a citizen or a trained Soldier was included in the army for the Last Alliance.
And since the Numbers of the Numenorean's were so few, I daresay their would be a lack of proper army, which would result in the inclusion of every able man. 
I mostly concur with Inder here.


> Why the weak realm?



I have adressed this before.


> If we go into the theology of it, it seems clear that Eru has a fondness for the theme of the "hidden king". The purpose of Arnor's decay was probably to safeguard the line of Isildur in the shadows until Sauron reappeared.



I dont agree with it. Their is no participation of Eru or the providance in this event. The base upon which Arnor was structured was too weak to hold off for a long time. And a strong Arnor would have been much more good in the fight against Sauron. Just because the decay of Arnor was more in line with the coming story doesn't mean it was the most logical choice. 
And as you yourself have said, Eru doesn't meddle with Free will, and all these Kingdoms and countries were the result of freewill.
But that might be untrue If we believe that the destiny of Arda was pre-ordained...which I don't believe It was. 



> But what was the material reason, the cause, of the decay?



Population dminishment.
Internal Quarells
These are the two of the main reasons.


> How? Eriador was evidently a better climate for Men, Elves and Dwarves because so many lived there or in surronding areas or in that latitude, such as Erebor



Arnor is found on the same latitude as of Numenor.
Artherdain is found on the same latitude as of probably Hithlum or Northern Neverast.
We are told that the climatic conditions of the later mentioned regions were severer then those in south. What stops us from saying that such would be the case in Arnor? 

More "MEN" lived in the southern area's. Dwarves prefered mountains and since most of the bigger mountain regions were in the North, they made their dwellings there. 
As for Elves, not many elves loved the Northern, Cold, regions of Beleriand, they prefered the much more climatically and terrain wise mild regions of Southern Beleriand. 

North of the shire It snowed in Winter. That's an obvious disadvantage in Winter. 
and most of the living places of the Dunedain in Arnor were north of Shire
Gondor is much closer to the griddle of Arda, yet not as close as Harad. So you would find a much more temperate climate there, compared to both Harad (hot) and Arnor (some regions, cold). 

I am not saying that Eriador was a total wasteland, but if we look on a general scale, Gondor was much more fertile then Arnor.



> Well, yes... just as he meddles in everything else . Eru governs the world so that "all things concur to the glory of his creation". He would not mess with free will, and undoubtedly if Arvedui had been accepted a lot of misgivings would have been averted, but Eru governs history nonetheless.



Well, If he doesn't meddle with free will, as you say, then how does he govern History.



> I was hoping for some comments about the populational structure of the kingdoms.



The Percentage of the Indigenous population was probably greater in Gondor, since Numenorean's had made most of their earlier, second-age settlements south. We are told that Sindarian was mostly spoken only in Minas Tirith and the adjacent town-lands, and is implied that also possibly in Dol-Amroth. The Lords of Dol-Amroth were of high Numenorean origin, so It is possible that most of the population of Dol-Amroth still existing would be Numenorean's or mixed. People of Ithilien might also be of Numenorean origin, since the house of Stewards was originally called the House of Hurin of Emyn Arnen. Hurin was a men of pure Numenorean race and It is probable that many of the people living in his lands were also of his clan and thus wholly or partially Numenorean. The folks south in Lebinnin and Belfalas would were probably mixed breeders, with few families, possibly of the Lords, of Numenorean Origin. The people of Langstrand would be mostly natives, due to the existance of Druedain in that area and due to the closeness of Dunland. 
As for the people of Lebennin and area's east of Belfalas, 



> The townlands were rich, with wide tilth and many orchards, and homesteads there were with oast and garner, fold and byre, and many rills rippling through the green from the highlands down to Anduin. Yet the herdsmen and husbandmen that dwelt there were not many, and the most part of the people of Gondor lived in the seven circles of the City, or in the high vales of the mountain-borders, in Lossarnach, or further south in fair Lebennin with its five swift streams. There dwelt a hardy folk between the mountains and the sea. They were reckoned men of Gondor, yet their blood was mingled, and there were short and swarthy folk among them whose sires came more from the forgotten men who housed in the shadow of the hills in the Dark Years ere the coming of the kings


It has to be noted that most of the chiefs of the Southern Fiefs were heridatory lords, and I think might have some Numenorean blood in them. 

Another possible Numenorean race dominated area is upper vales of Morthond.



> From the uplands of Morthond, the great Blackroot Vale, tall Duinhir with his sons, Duilin and Derufin, and five hundred bowmen



The original dwellers of Gondor was short and swarthy, and the indication of the form "tall" suggests to me that these people have Numenorean blood in them.



> Hirluin the Fair of the Green Hills from Pinnath Gelin with three hundreds of gallant green-clad men



This one perhaps Numenorean also.

***

Inderjit, I think will be able to answer the claims about Arnorian population percentage better, since he is better versed then me in these matters.
But an offshot theory is,
Artherdain, predominantly Numenorean.
Cardolan, mild presence of Numenoreans and some mixed elements. Possibly some Southern Men from the regions of EnedWaith and Minnihirath. 
Rhuadar, Very few Numenoreans. Most of the people are Hillmen that are mentioned as living in Eatten Moors and surroundings.
Anuminas as a city, predominantly Numenorean. Fornost, probably a bit more mixed due to the passing of the centuries.
It might also be said that people of mixed Origin will be few in Arnor compared to Gondor due to the lack of diversity of clans compared to Gondor.

***



> So I can't see any plain reason why Arnor would not have a large, prosperous population in T.A. 800.



I have theories in answer to this, but nothing really solid.


----------



## Inderjit S (Jun 16, 2003)

> Well, yes... just as he meddles in everything else . Eru governs the world so that "all things concur to the glory of his creation". He would not mess with free will, and undoubtedly if Arvedui had been accepted a lot of misgivings would have been averted, but Eru governs history nonetheless.



And how exactly is Arnor's decay a result of Eru's actions or meddling? It was a slow, gradual phase caused by several events, the Last Alliance, the separation of the Kingdoms, Angmar. 

Can you also give examples of Eru's meddling in Arda where he had given the Valar leave the judge. (apart from when the Valar asked him to help or in a special case, the gradual deterioration.



> The Northern Boundries of Gondor were mostly secure, up until the coming of the Rohirrim and the rule of Saruman. The Dunelandings feared the Tall, wrathful Numenorean's and never tried to hinder their cause, until or unless they had great support of other enemies, which was difficult to gain so northwards in Gondor.



Thinking in such a logic means that their could have easily been 'one kingdom' co-joined. Arnor stretched far-south, occupying most of Eriador as is told in the Appendix, and Gondor and Arnor could have met, easily and Southern expansion was certainly possible but could the Gondorians really be bothered to house a decaying realm? It would've been too hard to keep hold of all the land north+south, besides the Dunlendings could have migrated back to their old realm of Miniraith. (Where they were driven out by the Numenoreans.)



> As for Elves, not many elves loved the Northern, Cold, regions of Beleriand, they prefered the much more climatically and terrain wise mild regions of Southern Beleriand.



I think that the population division was even-ish. Doriath and Eglorest and Nargothrond are southwards, and were the two largest realms, but Himring, Dorthonion, Tol Sirion, Hithlum, and Gondolin were all north. Note the Numenoreans words in _Tal-Elmar_ 'The Eldar don’t come this far south' or something like that. An interesting point here, maybe the Noldor preferred the cold, northern clime? They established realms there in Beleriand, whilst the Sindar/Sylvan elves for the most part lived to the South (Apart from the Northern Sindar of course  ) but even they went to Doriath. i mean Lothlorien, the Haven in Dol Amroth, are further south then some Noldorin realms, like Rivendell, and even the Sylvan Elves of Mirkwood originally lived to the south of the forest (Amon Lanc was a Sylvan fortress which later became Dol Guludur) but Oropher removed further North due to a disdain for Galadriel and Celeborn's intrusion's

Maybe the Numenorenas preffered the Northern climes, whilst 'other men' didn't? A 'trait' from their Atanic forefathers maybe? 

Tolkien comments that there were far more people populating Gondor and it's fiefs then Elves who spoke Sindarin, in one of his letters-that is the only population info. I can find right now. 

_Of Dwarves and Men_ claims the Sindarin was a noble language in Godnor at the time of the WoTJ. It claims Adunaic was disused because it had lost it's nobility and Sindarin had become prevelant (hence the Sindarin place names), but the 'vulgar tounge' was taking over.

Belehg the info. you have given ic correct and is pretty much re-iterated in the _Apendix A. _


----------



## Eriol (Jun 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow _
> *Population dminishment.
> Internal Quarells
> These are the two of the main reasons.
> ...



We have pretty much established that. This was, of course, my original impression -- but this is not the point of my question. The "why" I am asking is directed at precisely those factors -- why the population diminishment? Why the quarrels? Why was Gondor able to keep a strong and unified rule while Arnor was not?

Those two factors you presented are not visible in T.A. 10, Beleg. How could an independent observer determine which kingdom, if any, would fall prey to strife and population diminishment? That is the interesting question, in my opinion. Perhaps there is some climatic relation, but it is weak, I think... is there nothing else or was it just "bad luck"? Why was Arnor already weak and Gondor strong in T.A. 800, before Angmar, before the division of the realm?

Division and Angmar are a result of this failing, not a cause.






> _Posted by Inderjit S_
> 
> Can you also give examples of Eru's meddling in Arda where he had given the Valar leave the judge.



Bilbo's finding of the Ring. Gollum in Mount Doom.

Everything which is largely ascribed to "luck" is under Eru's province. You see, of course, how he _could_ meddle in this way, don't you? Without touching free will at all. 

Gandalf, who knew Him personally , ascribed Bilbo's finding of the Ring to Eru's "meddling", quite plainly.

And luck is everywhere. This does NOT mean foreordainment, Beleg -- free will prevents that. It means that if people screw up, Eru can usually find a way to put things "back on track". And in the end, the story of Arda will be a drama weaved by the free personal choices, with the hand of Eru in the background.

Put in another way, Arnor had such bad luck that undoubtedly Eru did not oppose her decay. I would phrase it a bit stronger, as I did, and say that the decay actually had a purpose. 



I don't think the carrying capacity of the lands, the fact that Gondor is more fertile, is a big issue. The two cultures were twins and could evidently trade a lot. Sweden is also unable to grow her own food, but is surviving quite well. 

I can't figure out the history of those first centuries of Arnor. It seems as if nothing happened, the Kings stayed looking at the Stars, and cities were falling in decay... and I can't see why. I don't understand why what happened in the Shire after 1600 did not happen in Arnor in her first centuries. 



Cities should have been swelling. Trade should have been booming. Harvests should be plentiful. 

It's very odd, how an advanced culture can simply disintegrate. You could ascribe it to monstrous incompetence of the Kings, but even so, the people don't mind the managing skill of the Kings -- they should be swelling in numbers, whatever the Kings did. This scenario would end in "city-states" like Bree, but many. Why only one?

This may be a nit-picking, but wasn't Númenor a bit to the south of Eriador's latitude? I remember reading that in UT, vaguely... It really does not matter, because an island will have a climate quite unlike that of a land between two mountain chains, anyway.


----------



## Lantarion (Jun 16, 2003)

> This may be a nit-picking, but wasn't Númenor a bit to the south of Eriador's latitude? I remember reading that in UT, vaguely... It really does not matter, because an island will have a climate quite unlike that of a land between two mountain chains, anyway.


In fact, according to the Atlas of Tolkien's Middle-earth (revised edition), Númenor is situated some one thousand miles south of Middle-earth itself, or that part of north-western Middle-earth as is dealt with in the LotR.
And after all I'm somewhat inclined to agree with Inderjit about the geographical aspects of Arnor. The Kingdom was situated around the Shire, whose lands are described as fertile and lush on several occasions. So although Arthedain was spread over a wide area, northwards, the climatic conditions certainly would be no different from those of the Shire, and I see no indication that the terrain and/or farming possibilities had been any worse.
Beren: haha, thanks for correcting me.. I was just looking over the realms and kingdoms of the northern Dúnedain (which I haven't done for years), and realized that Gondor was a true super-power in those times in the sense of occupation. Sorry. 



> Cities should have been swelling. Trade should have been booming. Harvests should be plentiful.
> 
> It's very odd, how an advanced culture can simply disintegrate. You could ascribe it to monstrous incompetence of the Kings, but even so, the people don't mind the managing skill of the Kings -- they should be swelling in numbers, whatever the Kings did. This scenario would end in "city-states" like Bree, but many. Why only one?


I can't help but agree and wonder why such a prosperous-seeming enterprise as the kingdom of Arnor fell as it did.. The only (frugal) 'evidence' I can provide as a possibility is this quote from Appendix A:


> _The North-kingdom and the Dúnedain_
> After Elendil and Isildur there were eight High Kings of Arnor. After Eärendur, owing to dissensions among his sons their realm was divided into three: Arthedain, Rhudaur and Cardolan. ...


But even this was well after the decrepification of the kingdom had begun (which had ben continuing since TA2).


----------



## Inderjit S (Jun 16, 2003)

> Gandalf, who knew Him personally , ascribed Bilbo's finding of the Ring to Eru's "meddling", quite plainly.



Yes that was a significant singuilar that greatly effected the outcome of M-E history, As I said:




> Can you also give examples of Eru's meddling in Arda where he had given the Valar leave the judge. (apart from when the Valar asked him to help or in a special case,



How was the decline of Arnor a 'major event'? It was a slow, gradual process due to the folly of men and the enemy not because of the actions of one supremely powerful individual. Whenever Eru takes part in Arda's events, it is a individual event, such as the Destruction of Numenor. Arnor's fall held no relevance to the latter events of M-E. It was simply a weakened and divided kingdom, which was strategically important (for Sauron) to destroy, which he did. 




> Put in another way, Arnor had such bad luck that undoubtedly Eru did not oppose her decay. I would phrase it a bit stronger, as I did, and say that the decay actually had a purpose.



What has Eru's opposing of Arnor's decay, or lack of it got to do with it? He never stepped in when say the Noldorin or Edainic kingdoms were decaying or Gondor. Eru, is a all-knowing god, he would know what would happen.



> Put in another way, Arnor had such bad luck that undoubtedly Eru did not oppose her decay. I would phrase it a bit stronger, as I did, and say that the decay actually had a purpose.



Well it is evidently a 'stable' kingdom until the division of the kingdom:



> In Arthedain the line of the Isildur was maintained and endured, but the line soon perished in Rhuduar and Cardolan. There was often strife amongst the kingdoms, which hastened the waining of the Dunedain. .


 _Appendix A_ 

Arnor seems to have suffered from much war and affliction in it's early years. 

Found this quote from _Of the Rings of Power; Published Silmarillion_ 



> Valandil took up his abode in Annuminas, but his folk was diminished, and of the Numenoreans and the men of Eriador there remained to few people the land or to maintain all the places that Elendil had built ; In Dagorlad and upon the Gladden fields many had fallen



So we can see Arnor had suffered more due to the ravages of war then Gondor, maybe because Elendil and Arnor went to Dagorlad sooner then Anarion who had been besieged can came a little later. Arnor, had a smaller population then Gondor and we can see the lack of people being able to man the wide lands was seen later on in Gondor after the kinstrife, plague etc. 



> This may be a nit-picking, but wasn't Númenor a bit to the south of Eriador's latitude?



Andustar/Anduine where most the faithful come from is in the N-E tip of Numenor therefore it would've been a little colder there and prob. on the same latitude as Eriador. Eriador wasn't really THAT northwards, looking at it, in the Appendix I think it is said that Gundabad is 800 miles from the northern most tip of Arda. (I think.)



> In fact, according to the Atlas of Tolkien's Middle-earth (revised edition), Númenor is situated some one thousand miles south of Middle-earth itself, or that part of north-western Middle-earth as is dealt with in the LotR



I'd be *VERY* careful in giving non-Tolkien sources as fact. That distance seems to much for me. The Dunedain set off from Northern M-E in what seems to be straight direction.


----------



## Eriol (Jun 16, 2003)

I don't see the intrinsic difference between "special cases" and "everyday cases", and why Eru would not meddle with everyday cases. The method is subtle and does not touch free will, as Bilbo's example show. 

If we know of the special cases, it is because, well, they are special . Our ignorance of meddling in everyday events does not rule it out.

This distinction of "special" and "everyday" is quite hazy, anyway, and mostly based on hindsight. Bilbo had no inkling that by not killing Gollum he was saving Middle-Earth. 

And the decay of Arnor is not 'a major event'? Why? Would not the history of Arda be very much different if this decay had not happened? And does not Eru govern the history of Arda, as he said in the Ainulindalë?

And, in a sense, to say that it is a minor event in the story of Middle-Earth is to assume that the line of Isildur would have survived if it did not go into the shadows. We saw that the line of Anárion, in a strong and vibrant realm, failed to do that. 

I don't think the line of Isildur is 'a minor factor' in T.A. history.

But theology is a side track in this discussion. I can readily believe that Arnor was more hurt by the War of the Last Alliance against Sauron. But 800 years seems enough to heal these wounds. In that period the population in Gondor was swelling, but not so in Arnor... or at least not at the same rate.


----------



## Inderjit S (Jun 16, 2003)

> And the decay of Arnor is not 'a major event'? Why? Would not the history of Arda be very much different if this decay had not happened? And does not Eru govern the history of Arda, as he said in the Ainulindalë?



And what would that difference have been exactly? They would ahve had a powerful North kingdom? Maybe eventually the Gondorian pride would have yielded and the there would have been a united kingdom? Maybe Arnor would have taken the Northmen's place as the saving grace of Gondor in their battle against the Easterlings? Maybe it would have worked out better if Arnor had not decayed, in the long run. 

But the fate of men is in their own hands. That choice to do what they wanted-to be free from the music. Bilbo didn't have to kill Gollum but it was his free will and choice, in the end Eru couldn't make him do anything. Sure he may have ordained his finding of the Ring, but did he effect his greater choice? Nope. 

Surely if Eru had this 'saving grace' then why didn't he just 'guide' other men and meddle in their affairs? As described in the _Athrabeth Finrdo ah Andreth_ men were a fallen race and due to their pride they had usurped his gifts. He tells them that they should seek to find answers himself, he was not their/a guide that they would take greater pleasure from the finding out-so why would Eru go against his own advice? Why would he meddle in Men's affairs? 



> But 800 years seems enough to heal these wounds.



Yes but look at the quote I have provided, there numbers were too few too re-populate. Maybe there were high number of male casualties and their replenishment was slow. The Appendix mentions that Numenorean men usually wedded when they were quite old, and here their lifespan was quite long so in hindsight 800 yrs wouldn't have made for many Numenorean generations and so re-population may have been slower?


----------



## Eriol (Jun 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Inderjit S _
> *Surely if Eru had this 'saving grace' then why didn't he just 'guide' other men and meddle in their affairs? As described in the Athrabeth Finrdo ah Andreth men were a fallen race and due to their pride they had usurped his gifts. He tells them that they should seek to find answers himself, he was not their/a guide that they would take greater pleasure from the finding out-so why would Eru go against his own advice? Why would he meddle in Men's affairs? *



Well, I never said that he messed with people's choices. The point is, for example -- if Bilbo _had_ killed Gollum I am positive that some other way would be found to defeat Sauron. And that is due to Eru.

That quote of the Ainulindalë (which I don't have here ) about everything working for the glory of Eru is pretty conclusive, Inderjit -- it means that even if I consciously choose to thwart Eru's plans, I won't be able to do it. Due to Eru's governance, no doubt.

The alternative is absolute foreordainment, which is discussed in many places in TTF... and which means that Eru is the big villain in the story. I don't see it that way, and I doubt that Tolkien would.



> *
> Yes but look at the quote I have provided, there numbers were too few too re-populate. Maybe there were high number of male casualties and their replenishment was slow. The Appendix mentions that Numenorean men usually wedded when they were quite old, and here their lifespan was quite long so in hindsight 800 yrs wouldn't have made for many Numenorean generations and so re-population may have been slower? *



These population growth rates would apply only to Numenoreans. What about the common folk? The Breelanders & Co.? I think it is safe to say that the bulk of Arnor's population was composed of non-Numenoreans... Numenorean growth rate is not likely to be a major factor -- as it was not in Gondor.

Even so, the growth population rate is not really proportional to the number of men, the number of women is more important -- even assuming strict monogamy, as we surely can do in this case. The number of pregnancies per woman is the limiting factor.

Numenoreans had a slow-growing population, and few children -- but in an environment of peace and wide lands, larger families would be naturally encouraged.

But even so I believe that Numenorean growth rate is secondary. I wonder at the Dunlendings and their relatives. Even if they did not live in Arnor, they would surely migrate there if there was land and peace and a stable realm.

These conditions are sure to foster a growing population, be it by increased birth rates, or by migration. And what happened in Arnor was the opposite.

This is the enigma.


----------



## Beleg (Jun 17, 2003)

*Re: Eriol's post, second to last of mine.*



> Those two factors you presented are not visible in T.A. 10, Beleg.



Population Diminishment is Visible. 



> _Silmarillion, Of Rings of Power and the Third Age_
> *Valandil took up his abode in Annúminas, but his folk were diminished,* and of the Númenóreans and of the Men of Eriador there remained now too few to people the land or to maintain all the places that Elendil had built; in Dagorlad, and in Mordor, and upon the Gladden Fields many had fallen.








> Why was Arnor already weak and Gondor strong in T.A. 800, before Angmar, before the division of the realm?



A very, very strong reason is population diminishment; not enough people to maintain a strong Kingdom, which I think is the only reason we can give, if we are present in T.A 10. 
But any wise eye would know that to maintain a country, a country needs activity, which would keep the warriors and people busy, or else Civil war/strifes might occur, since ambitious people would have nothing to do to calm their adventurous spirits other then interfering in the matter's of Kingdoms. This would result in civil war and eventual distruction of the Kingdom.
A natural item for the adventurous and ambitious people to satisfy their heart is expansion, occupation of other lands, wars, where Champions can show their bravery and prove their worth. 
But such was not the case in Arnor, since Gondor and Misty Mountains jarred it's way from further occupation of Lands. 
Naturally the champions and ambitions Kings would have nothing else to do then indulge themselves in the internal matters of the Kingdom, and they would want to prove their worth by fighting with other's of their order---the eventual result being destruction, as was the case in Arnor. 
Even at T.A 10, when the signs of petty quarells hadn't appeared, one could foresee them arising, due to the particular geogrophical and political reasons. 




> Bilbo's finding of the Ring. Gollum in Mount Doom.



Not to sound Ostentatious, but did Eru send these people on the spur of the moment at those places?
It all depended on the personal choices and their was a very logical reason behind these events. Eru didn't interfere, It was all because of the personal choices and the turn of the events based on these choices. 



> Everything which is largely ascribed to "luck" is under Eru's province.



How can you prove this? It was not by chance and luck did Bilbo found the ring, the events happened in such a way that he was compelled to find the ring; the logic back it. Luck is never backed by Logic, but Bilbo's and Gollum's sojourns are backed by logic
If you don't agree, then In the next post I'll explain how so.



> It means that if people screw up, Eru can usually find a way to put things "back on track



Why would he do that? If that's the case then why let the "screwing" happen? Eru does and will not interfere in the matters of Arda, except for special occasions.



> I would phrase it a bit stronger, as I did, and say that the decay actually had a purpose.



Well I don't buy it. According to logic, a weak Arnor would be no good, if we were to fight Sauron. Logic does not taken unto consideration luck. I would say again, Eru had no part in all this afair.


> I don't think the carrying capacity of the lands, the fact that Gondor is more fertile, is a big issue.



Can you trade fertile grass away? Will you send all your animals to Gondor to be reared up and call them back to Arnor when they are well-fed and healthy?
Trade here means that they could exchange food---but' that's no substitute for topographical elements. Food can be exchanged, but geography cannot.


> I can't figure out the history of those first centuries of Arnor. It seems as if nothing happened, the Kings stayed looking at the Stars, and cities were falling in decay... and I can't see why.



So what do you suppose should have happened? The fact is the King's had nothing to do, except to maintain their Kingdom, which was not threatened by any external element--Life was slow, dead and monotonous--contrary to Gondor's exciting atmosphere. 
And one could see this coming in T.A 10.


> Cities should have been swelling. Trade should have been booming. Harvests should be plentiful.



Which would make the life comfortable, no excitement, no problems, nothing to do except to start petty quarell's and nitpick upon Government policies.


> that of a land between two mountain chains, anyway



The western bounds of Arnor, for the most part is, The Great Sea.


----------



## Eriol (Jun 17, 2003)

So, Beleg, do you mean that peace and prosperity leads to decay?





> Which would make the life comfortable, no excitement, no problems, nothing to do except to start petty quarell's and nitpick upon Government policies.





> Naturally the champions and ambitions Kings would have nothing else to do then indulge themselves in the internal matters of the Kingdom, and they would want to prove their worth by fighting with other's of their order---the eventual result being destruction, as was the case in Arnor.



I've never heard of a more... _hindsighted_ theory as this one.

The population diminishment took place _over_ the eight centuries, and not as a result of the War of the Last Alliance. This is the reason Gondor is so important in this argument. In Gondor we have a twin kingdom in which NO population diminishment was taking place at this time.

What, in T.A. 10, could predict that?

Note, Population Diminishment is not an event, it is a process. It implies this equation:

birth rate + immigration rate < death rate + emigration rate

I doubt that this was the case in the first 2 or 3 centuries of Arnor, but it seems it was already beginning to reach an equilibrium or a real diminishment before T.A. 800. Is there a reason for it?

As for trade, well, I don't get your point. Inderjit has already established that Eriador is fertile. Before the carrying capacity (the ability to provide food, for both men and animals) of the land is exhausted, it can certainly sustain a MUCH LARGER population than was ever present in the area in the Third Age.

The carrying capacity of the land is not a "limiting factor", in technical parlance. Even if it is smaller than Gondor, it is more than enough for Arnor -- especially an Arnor which had suffered a population diminishment in the War of the Last Alliance.

Trade can supply them with whatever they can't produce. And of course they has significant trading advantages, especially due to their proximity to Khazâd-dûm and the Ered Luin's mines.

The more I think about it, the more I reject the hypothesis of bad terrain and bad climate. It is simply untenable that this could lead to a population diminishment of an already diminished population, over 8 centuries.

It is still a mystery to me.

About Eru. Eru's role is one of that hypothesis which is confirmed by Tolkien himself, in his Letters. He mentions those two examples. You can argue with him (and I mean it, you _can_ argue with him -- I don't think Tolkien's word regarding the philosophical and theological implications of his work is the last word, especially because it is a strongly Catholic view, and people have the right to disagree with it).

About "logic" and Gollum, everyone would agree that Frodo's mercy was not an act of "logic". Sam was the one being logical at that time. 

Eru lets the "screwing" happen because he gave free will to his children. If he prevented it before it happened, he would be taking away that free will.

And the purpose of Arnor's decay, hiding the line of Isildur, is evidently confirmed by your hindsighted hypothesis . If a stable kingdom leads to strife, the only way to keep the line of Kings is to end the realm. 



When we go into teleology (purposes) it gets very complicated. My guess was simply that -- a guess. It fits the observation, but I don't claim anything more than that for it. I don't mean that Eru was the one behind Arnor's decay, that he planned it from the beginning. The responsibility is clearly with the people. But Eru let it happen -- he could have prevented it while keeping free will operative in a thousand ways. It helps to be All-Mighty


----------



## Lantarion (Jun 17, 2003)

> Which would make the life comfortable, no excitement, no problems, nothing to do except to start petty quarell's and nitpick upon Government policies.


This goes into ontological arguments: why aren't humans happy when everthing is techincally all right? Why does there have to be excitement/strife in order to maintain life?


> The western bounds of Arnor, for the most part is, The Great Sea.


It is said in Appendix A that Arnor's sphere of influence ended with the still free realms of the Eryd Lindon.


> The more I think about it, the more I reject the hypothesis of bad terrain and bad climate. It is simply untenable that this could lead to a population diminishment of an already diminished population, over 8 centuries. It is still a mystery to me.


I think what was implied that due to the infavourable terrain and conditions, Arnor was set up on an unstable ground. But as there is no proof that the conditions were unsuitable in the first place, it is futile to discuss.


> But Eru let it happen -- he could have prevented it while keeping free will operative in a thousand ways.


As far as I can see, Ilúvatar had little if any actual active jurisdiction in Arda at all. His intervention is implied in several cases, but it is never stated outright IIRC. A quote which states that Eru was still actively a part of the happenings and events of Arda in the Third Age would help..


----------



## Eriol (Jun 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lantarion _
> *As far as I can see, Ilúvatar had little if any actual active jurisdiction in Arda at all. His intervention is implied in several cases, but it is never stated outright IIRC. A quote which states that Eru was still actively a part of the happenings and events of Arda in the Third Age would help..  *



It's in the Letters -- in fact, in many Letters. But I don't have them here...

Also, Gandalf states quite clearly that Bilbo was _meant_ to find the Ring, and Frodo was _meant_ to get it... These words imply a purpose (natural processes, or chance, do not _mean_, aim at, anything), and a person behind it.

I wouldn't know how to interpret Gandalf's statement without the Eru hypothesis. And Tolkien himself addressed Eru's governance in Arda, when speaking of Gollum in Orodruin. 

Governance does not mean constant interference, it means watchfulness and power to intervene. He only does it when He thinks it is needed. The laws of nature (which He made, hehe) work quite well most of the time.


----------



## Lantarion (Jun 17, 2003)

Hehe.
Ah, ok. I haven't read the Letters, so I didn't know. Thanks. 
But it is still a rather important aspect of Tolkien's whole cosmology, the constant presence of the Creator in the World.. It seems uncharacteristic of Tolkien not to mention it in the Silmarillion..
Sorry, back to topic.


----------



## Eriol (Jun 17, 2003)

Since I eat lunch at home, I was able to find one quote (among many), from Letter 181:



> But the One retains all ultimate authority, and (or so it seems as viewed in serial time) reserves the right to intrude the finger of God into the story; that is, to produce realities which could not be deduced even from a complete knowledge of the previous past, but which being real become part of the effective past for all subsequent time (a possible definition of a 'miracle').



Tolkien was discussing the relationship between the Valar and Ilúvatar.


----------



## Valandil (Sep 23, 2004)

Hmmm... I've read through this, and offer a couple thoughts for consideration:

1. Although it fell, Arnor (including its successor kingdom Arthedain) lasted for over 2000 years! That's a pretty long time for you and me.

2. While Tolkien frequently writes of Arnor's continual decline, I see that as sort of 'historical summary'. It makes sense to me that there were perpetual 'ups and downs' with an overall downward trend... particularly punctuated by the division of Arnor, protracted civil wars, strife with Angmar, The Great Plague and Angmar's final assault. It's hard to imagine that every single year was worse than the year before... for almost 2000 years!

3. If accepting division was the 'weaker' way to go for Earendur's sons, might it also have been the more compassionate way? If a life-and-death struggle had ensued, as in Gondor's Kin-strife, what later King of Arnor could have rested peacefully at night? What younger prince... second or third son... could imagine himself safe from his elder brother? And might be tempted into attempting to assassinate that older brother himself? This would lead to the same paranoia found in Gondor when they ran out of claimants for the succession of the throne. If the course of events in Gondor preserved the kingdom, it was at the cost of the line of kings. If the course of events in Arnor cost them the kingdom... it at least preserved the line of kings. All this sets the stage for Aragorn (the King without a kingdom) and Gondor (the kingdom without a King) to come together in 3019.

Here's some interesting speculation on the two (from an article by _michael martinez_!)   

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/47755

And another... speculation focused on the division of Arnor:

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/46708


----------



## Arvedui's Legacy (Feb 14, 2017)

Eriol said:


> Do you suppose there is any reason (beyond story-telling reasons, of course) for the difference in the history of Arnor and Gondor? They both began as free realms under Numenorean rule, and their territory was not so different in size at the beginning; Gondor had more Palantíri, but on the other hand Arnor had more contact with elvish strongholds (Lindon, Imladris).
> 
> A way to phrase my question is -- could an independent onlooker at T.A. 10 predict the future of the two realms, and how Gondor would rise in power and strength while Arnor would dwindle and fade? And if yes, why? What was the feature that enabled Gondor to grow while Arnor waned?
> 
> I have some thoughts, but I'd like to hear yours...


From my knowledge, Gondor was near many enemies like the wain riders (Easterlings) and Harad while Arnor was far from any enemies at the time. With this in mind, Gondor had enemies at their doorstep so other matters in the kingdom weren't of absolute matter at the times. Arnor on the other hand had no enemies to face and so kin-strife came upon Arnor when Earendur had three sons which each believed had the right to rule Arnor. The quarrel led to the division of three lesser kingdoms Arthedain, Cardolan, and Rhudaur. By the time of the Arnor-Angmar wars, Arthedain and Cardolan joined forces with Cardolan having no opposition or Arthedain's rule (Theory that the line of kings in Cardolan have died out), but there was no time for a reunion of the countries and pointless if Angmar's campaign is successful. Rhudaur's line of kings died out very quickly if I remember correctly and the dunedain living there either left, died, or was unstated. With the remnants of Arnor's kingdom weaken from the centuries of war with Angmar, it led to the downfall. Gondor could not send aid for they were also fighting enemies in the east and south, and when they did the kingdoms of Arnor had fallen and the people became wanders in the wild (Rangers). Gondor had to face mortal men while the Arnor they had the face Sauron's second in command which he is immortal and black sorcery to aid him. Arnor was weaker than Gondor at this point and in my opinion had a stronger enemy so this is why I believe Arnor failed.



Eriol said:


> hmm... in our own world China lived quite well for many centuries without territorial expansion. Is imperialism the only way for a kingdom to prosper?
> 
> Terrain and climate can have a role. But I don't think it is that important, and surely Arnor has some territorial advantages. For instance, they have Dwarves, and this means mines, metals, and wealth.
> 
> ...


Arnor DID try to recover with every chance they got. The elves even took part in the war to help Arnor and elves helping men is a big deal. If you want a similar idea to Arnor-Angmar war, look up the Three kingdoms of Korea. They lasted almost the same time as the kingdoms of Arnor and Angmar as China (Not implying China is evil or any way, just an example). Two of the kingdoms allied to fight against China while one allied with China and from there it led to the fall of the two kingdoms. Strategy and battles are almost similar, this is just my opinion.


----------



## Ingolmin (May 18, 2017)

I do not agree with those who think that peace brings strifes and conflicts because men get bored.
No, though the conflicts and civil wars were there in both the sister kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor which led to their destruction, one survived (Gondor) not properly and the other collapsed(Arnor), both of them were not aftereffects of peace. Firstly, there was no peace, it was Watchful Peace by which I mean that peace was there but not absolute peace which could lead to flourishment of the men(here Dunedain), the Ringwraiths and many other evils consistently troubled the kings and their kingdoms.
Secondly civil wars that took place in both the kingdoms were not because the ambitious ones wanted adventure (as mentioned by Beleg before), the fights in the kingdom was mainly between those who claimed their descent from Elendil and wanted the kingdoms for themselves and the wise wanted to preserve the line of Elendil. Remember the wars that took place in Gondor between Castamir and Eldacar, it was because of the throne. The conflict between the sons of Earendur(last king of Arnor) was also because of this. The division of Arnor made the kingdom even more weak rather than strong.
Also the Dunedain of the Third Age were not so wise and skilled as their fathers before them because the mingling of their blood with that of lesser men and due to their estrangement from Eldar.
Whatever passed in Middle Earth was neither luck but was through the power of Eru Illuvitar himself. The fate of Middle earth was bound with the Music sung by the Ainur, only in some cases Illuvitar interfered.

I am Ingolmin, a young loremaster and I claim my descent from Elrond Halfelven. Feel free to comment and ask your queries.
Thank you.


----------



## Halasían (Jul 27, 2017)

Ingolmin said:


> Whatever passed in Middle Earth was neither luck but was through the power of Eru Illuvitar himself. The fate of Middle earth was bound with the Music sung by the Ainur, only in some cases Illuvitar interfered.



That seems like it is double-speak. On one hand you say that whatever passed was through the power of Eru Illuvitar himself, then you say that the fate of ME was bound with the Music and Illuvitar only interfered in some cases?


----------



## Ingolmin (Jul 29, 2017)

Halasian, my friend! I would like to rephrase my sentence, I mean to say that the whatever passed in Middle Earth was not by luck but through the Music of the Ainur which was subject to the over lordship of Eru himself.


----------



## Halasían (Jun 28, 2020)

Ingolmin said:


> Halasian, my friend! I would like to rephrase my sentence, I mean to say that the whatever passed in Middle Earth was not by luck but through the Music of the Ainur which was subject to the over lordship of Eru himself.


Sounds like this is another thread on its own.

Getting back to the differences between Arnor and Gondor, I remember reading an essay on how the mingling of lesser men led to the strengthening of Gondor desite it having caused a civil war, wheras in Arnor the Dunedain were more insular and tended to keep their lineage among their own. This of course brings in the issue of actual numbers of the population of Arnor and the diversity of the gene pool. I wish I could find that but it was on a message board that no longer exists. I'll do a deeper search...


----------



## Miguel (Jun 28, 2020)

Arvedui's Legacy said:


> Arnor on the other hand had no enemies to face and so kin-strife came upon Arnor







Ingolmin said:


> I do not agree with those who think that peace brings strifes and conflicts because men get bored


----------



## Halasían (Jun 30, 2020)

Halasían said:


> Getting back to the differences between Arnor and Gondor, I remember reading an essay on how the mingling of lesser men led to the strengthening of Gondor desite it having caused a civil war, wheras in Arnor the Dunedain were more insular and tended to keep their lineage among their own. This of course brings in the issue of actual numbers of the population of Arnor and the diversity of the gene pool. I wish I could find that but it was on a message board that no longer exists. I'll do a deeper search...



Found it. This was an essay written by David Cord, author of the book Dead Romans (aka Thorin on the now-defunct Minas Tirith message board) back in 2002. Some interesting insights as to the differences Arnor and Gondor approached things through their history.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

*Differences Between Arnor and Gondor*


The keeping of the line of Isildur pure and unbroken allowed King Elessar to reunite the thrones of Arnor and Gondor in T.A. 3019. However, my thesis here is that the fall of Arnor was directly related to the Northern Numenorean’s refusal to intermarry and intermingle with indigenous Men of Middle-earth.

To make a case for this idea, I need to show that:

A) The Northern Line of Isildur did not intermarry with non-Numenoreans.
B) The Southern Line of Anarion did intermarry with non-Numenoreans.
C) The intermingling saved Gondor
D) The lack of intermingling caused the fall of Arnor.

*The Northern Line did not intermarry*
This is fairly straightforward and easy to confirm. Aragorn, the last of the purely Northern Line, is described as “the thirty-ninth Heir of Isildur in the direct line.”(1) Gandalf(2) and Elrond(3) confirm this as well. “It was the pride and wonder of the Northern Line that, though their power departed and their people dwindled, through all the many generations the succession was unbroken from father to son.”(4) If there still is any doubt of the lineage of the women these sons married, they are laid to rest with an account of the parents of King Elessar. His father Arathorn was directly descended from Isildur, of course, and his mother was Gilraen the Fair, daughter of Dirhael, who was descended from Aranarth, the First Chieftan, who was himself descended from Isildur.(5) The only trace of non-Numenorean blood that can be traced would be Arvedui’s wife Firiel, who was the daughter of King Ondoher of Gondor. Ondoher traced his lineage back to King Eldacar, who was half Rhonovianian.(6)

*The Southern Line did intermarry*
This is also easy to confirm. A great deal of information is given regarding Valacar’s marriage to Vidumavi, princess of Rhovanion. Their son, Eldacar (Vinitharya), came to the throne of Gondor and survived the Kinstrife. Yet other Numenoreans in Gondor had previously intermarried: “For the high men of Gondor already looked askance at the northmen among them; and it was a thing unheard of before that the heir to the crown, or any son of the King, should wed one of lesser and alien race.”(7) More explicitly, “after the return of Eldacar the blood of the kingly house and other houses of the Dunedain became more mingled with that of lesser Men.”(8)

*The intermingling saved Gondor*
This is the first of my ideas that may need some hard proofs to convince. To begin with, we know that war never ceased on their borders.(9) Gondor was mostly victorious, although their power waxed in the eleventh century. By the thirteenth, when the Kinstrife erupted over Eldacar, Gondor had faced two centuries of slow decline. Gondor never fully recovered from the Kinstrife. Many of the Dunedain were slain, and some fled to Umbar and Harad because they refused to acknowledge Eldacar. There were many Numenoreans killed or departed, and the records clearly state that “the people of Gondor were replenished by great numbers that came from Rhovanion.”(10)

Gondor clearly needed replenishing, because in the years that followed great evils rapidly followed upon the heels of one another. Plague, wars with Umbar, and the invasions of the Wainriders beset Gondor from the fifteenth to the nineteenth centuries. Things reached a low point in the twentieth, when the general Earnil of the Southern Army alone saved Gondor from being overwhelmed from the East and South.

Throughout this long time period the descendents of the Kings had become few. Some were killed in the ceaseless wars, some did not marry, some fled to Umbar out of fear, and some “renounced their lineage and taken wives not of Numenorean blood.”(11)

This intermingling had two effects. First, it ended up destroying the Southern Line. No claimant of pure blood could be found. Second, it saved the nation of Gondor. I have already quoted the “replenishment” statement. Gondor needed immigration and new blood to survive the constant threats and attacks. Immigration came from the North, as we know, but there was also intermingling that had gone on in Lamedon and other provinces of Gondor that were on the southern edge of the White Mountains.(12) Without this help and intermingling, there was little chance that the Exiles could have survived.

*The lack of intermingling caused the fall of Arnor*
The Numenoreans in the North had always been in lesser number than in the South. Before the Drowning, the colonies of the Faithful were at Tharbad in the North and at Pelargir and the surrounding areas in the South.(13) Pelargir was the main haven, as is clearly stated. During the Drowning, four ships of Elendil came to the North while five ships of Isildur and Anarion came to the South.(14) Moreover, after the Fall of Sauron and the End of the Second Age, a great deal of the Northern Dunedain were slain at the Gladden Fields.(15)

The Northern Kings therefore ruled over a lesser proportion of Numenoreans and a greater proportion of indigenous Men of Middle-earth, or Men of the Twilight. There had been Men in Eriador since the Elder Days, and the Numenoreans claimed lordship over them.(16) Since the Northern Dunedain were fewer in number, it is conceivable that they were more jealous of their lineage, and had been less likely to intermarry with those of non-Numenorean descent, and this may help explain why the Northern Line survived three thousand years.

It may also be the reason why the nation of Arnor fell. Arnor was beset from Angmar, as Gondor was from the East and South. However, Arnor never attempted to ask for aid, as Gondor did multiple times. Annuminas never attempted to contact the Men of Wilderland, as Minas Tirith did. It may have been impossible, as the Mountains were held by Angmar. Men to the South of Eriador were hostile to the Numenoreans.(17) The only help that was available was the remnant of the Noldor in Rivendell or the Havens. Not only were these Elves greatly diminished, the Elves had never intermingled with Men in any lasting form.

Arnor was alone and beset by external and internal calamities. The plague rolled through Eriador, the witch king attacked it from the East, and the sons of Earendur split Arnor into three because of “dissention.” This in and of itself may be the greatest calamity to befall the North, yet unfortunately the Professor gives us only a fragment of a sentence to explain it. Arnor faced nothing worse than Gondor did -–in fact Gondor may have faced worse challenges. Yet Gondor had something Arnor did not – the ability and the willingness to ask for immigration and outside aid from Men of non-Numenorean descent. This was the final ultimate cause of the fall of Arnor.

Notes:
(1) Index, The Silmarillion.
(2) Many Meetings, The Lord of the Rings
(3) The Council of Elrond, The Lord of the Rings
(4) Appendix A (iii), The Lord of the Rings
(5) Appendix A (v), The Lord of the Rings
(6) Appendix A (ii), The Lord of the Rings
(7) Appendix A (iv), The Lord of the Rings
(8) Ibid.
(9) Ibid.
(10) Ibid.
(11) Ibid.
(12) The Passing of the Grey Company, The Lord of the Rings
(13) Unfinished Tales & Appendix A (i.), the Lord of the Rings
(14) Akallabeth, The Silmarillion
(15) Unfinished Tales
(16) At the Sign of the Prancing Pony, The Lord of the Rings
(17) Helm’s Deep, The Lord of the Rings


----------



## Halasían (Apr 13, 2021)

Kinda glad I posted this here as the old Minas Tirith site is no more. Needed it on another site.


----------

