# The fate of the Green Dragon



## Talierin (Oct 1, 2003)

Ok, I've just spent an afternoon trying to clean up the place, and I've come to realize that something has got to be done with the place. People won't be happy, some may even leave, but it can't stay like it is, it's a disgrace to Tolkien's name. So here's your options:

1. Delete all the current inns, and make a rule that all new ones must be written like this one: http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12411

2. Delete the entire thing and get rid of it completely, but get an IRC channel to chat in

3. Bring back the RPs, and incorporate the section into some sort of rp "town", where rpers go to buy equipment, gather information, etc..

4. Delete everything, and take the section and turn it into the lighthearted section of S&B (S&B serious would be renamed to have an inn name as well)


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## Celebthôl (Oct 1, 2003)

IRC Channel one, i dont care about the GD anymore. . .


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## Lantarion (Oct 1, 2003)

I want it gone, that's for sure, but I'm torn between options 2 and 4.. I voted 4 because the GD is basically the same as a lighthearted "hair's-breath-from-being-spam" section... But an IRC channel would serve a very similar purpose. Either way is fine by me.


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## Aulë (Oct 1, 2003)

But would you want the L/H S&B forum full of idle chit-chat like it is in the GD now? I would have thought that threads such as 'Who has the most annoying avatar' would be in the L/H S&B forum.

An IRC channel would be a perfect substitute for the GD. There are a few decent threads in there though (such as Nom's, and any involving HobbitGirl), and they could either go in the RPG forum if it returns, or possibly the Prancing Pony.


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## Confusticated (Oct 1, 2003)

I think it would be cool to put in an IRC for those who like to spam in the Inns, but let non-spam Inns remain. I guess the problem with this is no one wants to bother reading through all of them to make sure they do not turn into spam. But a quick glance over the first few and last few pages should be enough to see if the 10 page long Inn is full of spam.

I would hope they can be archived incase RPGs come back, and then they can be allowed to continue as RPGs. I'd have made mine an RP had RPs still been allowed at TTF. You can notice it is actually a whole elven valley (lots of room for RPing) and the attention in the opening posts to the elvish bar is only there really with the secondary purpose of a place to tell tales, the primary being to make it qualify as a Bar or Inn so it could be allowed at TTF. So, I sort of cheated the RPG move... hehehe take that suckers!


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## HLGStrider (Oct 1, 2003)

What I want to know is how Nom got those doves into her post. It looks amazing, and I'd adore having that knowledge! . . .I'd also probably over use it. . .

On topic, I'm in favor of returning the rps and in favor of keeping one or two inns up. I don't like there being only one inn because that way when one inn stops being serious and gets wacky for a time there is still a serious inn to go to. On the other hand when a serious thing breaks out in one and someone still wants to have a "merry we'll make it, merry we'll be" atmosphere, they can go to that one. 

However, I think we need to strongly make an attempt to slow down on this forum.

We're having several upsets and changes in a week. We need to slow down or we're going to lose a lot of members. Even if we make GOOD changes, and there is a risk that these changes will backfire, people in general don't like change. Any change is an adjustment and should be given time to get used to before another change is invoked.

Shouldn't we deal with the GoR GoP question first?
Then the "new layout question' after that has been implemented and put in place?
Then the post count issue. . .
Then the RP issue. ..

We don't even ahve to do them in that order, but we should do one issue at a time. Not tackle the entire forum at once.


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## YayGollum (Oct 1, 2003)

Not everyone is interested in those other problems. oh well. Let me see here. I had all kinds of fun with making what I thought was an achingly original type bar thing for people to toss gobs of their own originality around in, but they refused. Too bad. I meant to show up in the Confusticated lady's thread. Can't remember why I haven't. Probably because it's very into elves. Ick. I say that we should bring the R.P.G. type things back and let the moderator types in charge of it approve those and any bar type places that show up. If you toss the bar type places into a section of their own or one just for lightheartedness, I happen to think that it won't be as rich as it could be.


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## Snaga (Oct 2, 2003)

There have always been good inns as well as spamming-holes. We need to keep them. Where isnt the biggest issue. The issue really is how to stop the spamming-holes from taking root. If the IRC initiative is a viable alternative for silliness then great. It also requires the mods to be brave in closing threads that have deteriorated beyond recall, and the members to back them in doing so.


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## Lossengondiel (Oct 4, 2003)

Here's what I think...

I don't think ALL of Green Dragon should be delted, because like you said, a lot of people would be angry and leave. I think you should leave the already present Inns as is (unless you have a good reason otherwise to delete it) I think that those present should remain, and like in Other Guilds and Socities, no other threads may be added unless given approval by a mod ie you (another chance to exercise your mod-ship power ) That way, no one becomes angry and leaves, and hopefully it won't become so congested in GDI.

Another reason why I don't think you should make it into a great big "RPG town" or totally dedicated to Tolkien's works, is that not a whole lot of people (especially new members) know every little detail about the elves or the fate of Middle Earth, and therefore cannot participate in the threads. I myself, having read the books, still do not know the greatest deal about ME or the elves or whatever, and GDI gives me a chance to create my own world RPG that I can participate in.

But that's just my opinion...


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## Eledhwen (Oct 4, 2003)

The Green Dragon Inn was a good idea to start with. Inns are where people go to meet with their friends and discuss the burning issues as well as the trivia. The Green Dragon was where the Hobbits met to socialise.

However, on The Tolkien Forum, when one pushed open the door of The Green Dragon, one was not met by a scene of chatter and the smell of ale, but about fifty six other inns crammed inside this one! Ridiculous!

Let's look at The Eagle and Child in Oxford. You go in the front door and there is a narrow passage through to the bar. On either side are small parlours with etched glass windows and an iron stove with a mantlepiece over; various clubs and societies have met in these over the years. further back is the bar where the regulars stand and chat over their pints; here is where the issues of the day are discussed. Behind that is the Rabbit Room. In here one would hear frivolity, literature and laughter, but the main purpose was the discussion and reading of literature. Out back in the stable yard one might discuss journeys and how to undertake them, or the condition of the beasts.

If we have an inn, let's at least get it looking like an inn when we walk through the door.


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## Celebthôl (Oct 4, 2003)

*raises hand*

Er, ours was a coffee house. . .


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## Eledhwen (Oct 5, 2003)

It was still inside a pub called The Green Dragon, and although you might be able to order a coffee in a pub, you wouldn't find an entire coffee house inside one, especially not a Tolkien-invented pub like The Green Dragon. Coffee House? Barrow Tea Rooms would have been more 'Tolkien'.


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## Snaga (Oct 5, 2003)

Eledhwen the name 'Green Dragon Inn' was the name given to the forum in which all the various inns and bars were collected. Prior to this they were in the Prancing Pony. I never quite understood why all the inns were inside another inn. But that's a problem with the name, rather than with the quality of the inns themselves.

Just taking a step back a moment, can we get clear what is the problem with the place? Which of the following apply?

(1) It is too much work to mod? If so, what causes the problems?

(2) It uses up too much server space?

(3) The posts are not high enough quality?

(4) The posts are not Tolkien enough?

If we don't know exactly WHAT the problem is, and WHY we want to change things, the change is unlikely to fix the problem. At the moment we've not heard much from the people who really use Green Dragon.


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## Eledhwen (Oct 5, 2003)

Maybe a sticky should be put in the Green Dragon to alert the users that this discussion is going on.


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## Húrin Thalion (Oct 5, 2003)

Indeed, I must agree with Snaga, I have personally never posted in any of the inns and I think it would be good with a complete examination fo the issue. I think these are quite major reforms, and it is good that they are done, but let us be hasty slowly. Basicly, couldn't someone look into the issue and give a sumary of what they think is, should be, and must eb done to achieve our goal?

Måns


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## Confusticated (Oct 5, 2003)

Well since no one has answered yet, I'll say the impression I got from things moderators have said is that it is too much trouble to keep an eye on the Inns. I am guessing this is because they are not interesting enough to these people. Unfortunately the old threads that were made when Green Dragon was started to get the Inns out of Prancing Pony seem to have been deleted. I recall getting the impression the reason these Inns were first removed from PP and then later allowed in their own forum is that they were not of high enough quality. If this is the case, a solution may be to find a Green Dragon Moderator. A way to do that might be to ask the big Green Dragon posters if any of them would like the job... then check to be sure they are not someone who does tons of spamming, and ask them what they would like to see done with the Green Dragon. If you can find someone who loves Inns, is willing, and wants to set a higher standard of quality, and has no fear about shutting crap down.... it could work.

But because there is so much of what many would call 'spam' over in the Green Dragon, I sort of get mixed messages. On the one hand it seems that the problem with GD is the low quality, but on the other hand it looks as though this is ALLOWED in GD... so which is it.

I aso wonder if my Tumba-nu-Menel was used as an example because it has long posts or if it is because it is Tolkien related.


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## Talierin (Oct 6, 2003)

I posted the link in my cleaning notice thread stickied in there. And since none of the posters in there have bothered to post in this thread, it leads me to believe they don't care (well, ok, Thol posted)....

Your thread was used because I thought it was of the quality that the inns SHOULD be off, and of course, also very Tolkien based.

(1) It is too much work to mod? If so, what causes the problems?

It is too much work... it has a very rapid rate of postage because they go back and forth in there all day, and it's just too much to follow

(2) It uses up too much server space?

Not really

(3) The posts are not high enough quality?

Definitely... in short, they're mostly crap

(4) The posts are not Tolkien enough?

It depends on the inn, but yes, most of them have nothing to do with Tolkien


And I've racked my brains trying to come up with someone who posts in there that's a mod-type, but I seriously can't think of anyone. And I really don't think getting a mod is going to help much, the place needs to be restarted, IMO from the look around I've had.

And when GD was first opened, the posts were of higher quality, but lack of modding and general degradation has lead to huge amounts of spam..

Yeah, this post is rambly and rather incoherant, rather tired....


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## Confusticated (Oct 6, 2003)

> And I really don't think getting a mod is going to help much, the place needs to be restarted, IMO from the look around I've had.


As Snaga said earlier:


> The issue really is how to stop the spamming-holes from taking root.



I agree with him on this, because unless something is changed, simply restarting the Green Dragon will only be a temperary solution as it was last time.

Seems the major reason mods can't handle the Green Dragon is the fact that it gets so much spam. I'd go out on a limb and suggest that perhaps the reason Inns get out of hand is that mods don't want to be the bad guy. I think Snaga's post really got to the heart of it. And my post here is maybe just making more obvious, what I believe to be the implications of what he said. If Green Dragon is to be kept, then the exact cause of the problem must be identified and a solution found. Otherwise clearing it out will be of no use.

Problem - mods can't keep up with Inns, therefore they get out of hand which only increases the problem.

Cause - too much spam.

Or, you could look at it another way and say: Cause of cause - mods let it go too far in the beginning?

Solution - be more aggressive in shutting Inns down when they go bad? Find someone who enjoys Inns enough that they'd enjoy moderating them, and who will not tolerate a lot of spam?

One thing someone might do is go visit some of the Inns. Go in, maybe have a drink, say hello, and ask if they'd rather have a chatroom than an Inn? If a lot of people of the 'spam' Inns want this, the IRC may prove to be the best solution. If someone is chit-chatting at a forum, I'd suspect they'd prefer a chatroom anyhow, but I could be wrong.

But another question I'd ask... since server space or whatever technical thingie... is not an issue - what is the harm of the spam? Is it that the Inns, as a result of the spam, can not be watched properly and may end up with offensive content that goes unnoticed?

Is it that it would be wrong to allow spam in Green Dragon, but hand out points for it in other forums?


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## Ithrynluin (Oct 6, 2003)

I would like to see the IRC idea blooming to life soon. It would do away with much unnecessary trouble. I would only allow coherent bars and inns, not necessarily Tolkien, but not of the chit-chatty-one-sentence-long kind of type. Those are simply horrible. They have been allowed to go on for much too long.



> It is too much work... it has a very rapid rate of postage because they go back and forth in there all day, and it's just too much to follow



And to plod through all that is a torment to oneself. 



> And I've racked my brains trying to come up with someone who posts in there that's a mod-type, but I seriously can't think of anyone. And I really don't think getting a mod is going to help much, the place needs to be restarted, IMO from the look around I've had.



Ditto. It's not about finding a 'suitable' moderator for the section, all of the current mods are more than up for monitoring such a lighthearted area. 



> I'd go out on a limb and suggest that perhaps the reason Inns get out of hand is that mods don't want to be the bad guy.



This is what the problem is, in my opinion. When the GD is restarted there ought to be strict rules and guidelines as to what is acceptable in there. We, the moderator team, will endeavour to establish order in there and bear down harder on those who do not follow the rules.

_TTF is not a chat room. Use messengers and chat rooms to exchange 'lol' posts and other pleasantries that require about two seconds to type up!_


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## Confusticated (Oct 6, 2003)

> Ditto. It's not about finding a 'suitable' moderator for the section, all of the current mods are more than up for monitoring such a lighthearted area.



You had me fooled then.


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## Ithrynluin (Oct 6, 2003)

Care to elaborate on that?


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## Confusticated (Oct 6, 2003)

Not especially, but...



> (1) It is too much work to mod? If so, what causes the problems?
> 
> It is too much work... it has a very rapid rate of postage because they go back and forth in there all day, and it's just too much to follow





> And I really don't think getting a mod is going to help much, the place needs to be restarted, IMO from the look around I've had.
> 
> And when GD was first opened, the posts were of higher quality, but lack of modding and general degradation has lead to huge amounts of spam..


Said one mod, then...



> Ditto. It's not about finding a 'suitable' moderator for the section, all of the current mods are more than up for monitoring such a lighthearted area.



It's just that I'm left with the impression the mods have been unable to manage GD, and now you are telling me that all of them are not only up for it, but more than up for it.


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## Ithrynluin (Oct 6, 2003)

Well, mods are not one huge conjoined entity (surprise surprise!).
Opinions do differ amongst us you know. Sometimes radically.



> All of them? Not only up for it, but more than up for it? Well, it shows.



Give the overly critical attitude a rest, will you? The Green Dragon was left to grow in whatever direction it wanted, because mods didn't give it much consideration. Spam kept multiplying and I don't find it surprising that noone bothered to plod through it. Isn't this why we are discussing this issue now? To make a change?


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## Confusticated (Oct 6, 2003)

> Give the overly critical attitude a rest, will you?


No, I will not.

I do not see what is over-critical about this anyhow. But I did sound like a jerk in my last post.. i editted it but before I saw your reply.

Anyhow... the reason GD went out of hand is due to lack of modding, right? But you say that you are all up for it, so it leaves one wondering why? Did you guys discuss it and make plans? I simply wanted to know what has changed.


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## Ithrynluin (Oct 6, 2003)

> But you say that you are all up for it, so it leaves one wondering why?



Oh did I? That should have read 'all of the current mods are more than up TO it'.

The reason why it didn't get moderated sufficiently is that no one was assigned to this section especially. And it's easy to see why noone was jumping with joy at the thought of reading 200 pages of chit chat voluntarily.



> Did you guys discuss it and make plans?



Look at the title of this thread. The matter is being discussed. Publicly.


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## Talierin (Oct 6, 2003)

Yeah, we've never really assigned anyone to the section... It's in my "area", but I have my hands full with S&B and Bag End as it is. Also, I don't have *time* to read GD, I'm lucky if I make it through all of my other sections.


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## Ithrynluin (Oct 6, 2003)

We also have MacAddict and the latest addition Aerin. 

I would be willing to co-monitor the new Green Dragon, but not excessively.


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## Snaga (Oct 8, 2003)

> And I've racked my brains trying to come up with someone who posts in there that's a mod-type, but I seriously can't think of anyone. And I really don't think getting a mod is going to help much, the place needs to be restarted, IMO from the look around I've had.


I'm willing to bet that's because you're looking for someone who is like the current group of mods... ie someone similar to the people who think GD sucks and would rather not touch it. The current group of mods is already too narrow and unrepresentative, however good any individual is.


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## Celebthôl (Oct 8, 2003)

Why not just leave it to grow as it has done? Still skim over the threads to make sure they are "in line" and contain no offensive matterial or major spam such as "lol" or "yes", but leave them to be how they are, they are a good place to socialise with other TTFers, and some of the members there don't have messenger chat programmes, so its the only place they can socialise with other forum members.
On countless occassions, when ive seen a humerous post that made me "lol" i would copy-n-paste it into MSN and comment on it to the poster (usually Aulë or Lanty ), i gave up writting "lol" as it always seemed a waste, you have a massive page with 3 letters on.  
There have been other mods post in GD, i know Anc did when he was mod and so did Beorn, they both posted in the Java Coffee House. So it isnt entirely left alone as it seems.


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## Confusticated (Oct 8, 2003)

There must be someone who enjoys the Green Dragon a lot, and who will keep it at a higher standard. Finding someone who doesn't view it as such a big chore, would save other moderators a lot of work.

Celebthol... I saw Anc's Coffee House post... hehe hardly a good example.


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## Aulë (Oct 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ancalagon (March 2003) in JCH_
> Don't mistake this for a friendly warning; sort the attitude out on this thread or it will be deleted entirely and more than a few points allocated to anyone else participating in this arguement.





> _Originally posted by Beorn (July 2003) in JCH_
> Yeah....
> 
> cardanas: up top, click where it says 'User CP'. On the right a few inches down is a list of private messages people have sent you. There are two there from me, and plenty from other people. Also, check your e-mail.





> _Originally posted by Beorn (January 2003) in JCH_
> 
> quote:
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ...



I don't think they count, Thol. 
They just show how bad the GD is.


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## Celebthôl (Oct 8, 2003)

They still show its being modded and VERY carefully watched over (moreso with out place  maybe coz of the lost tempers ).

Plus the Beorn ones are well funny  I love the way he digs into Freedom


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## Aulë (Oct 8, 2003)

Let's pull out some random discussions from the wonderful Java Coffee House  



> _Orginally posted by Dragonblade_
> lol Nef, I know the feeling, my cat doesn't leave me alone, especially since I've been gone all day, she follows me around and attacks my pants...lol.





> _Originally posted by Nefmariel_
> yeh Leo sits on the keyboard and types a message! *gets a cappocino for a change * mmm yum





> _Orginally posted by Mablung_
> My dog does that too but he just stares and acts like he wants something.





> _Originally posted by Nefmariel_
> yeh My dog does that too along with getting her but whooped by Leo! sad isn't it?!? my other dog does that too!





> _Originally posted by Mablung_
> The only cats that have ever lived with us were my cousins which we took in while she moved... things were menaces they'd act nice and let you stroke them until suddenly they would attack. A typical session would go like this. Cat: Purrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr- hiSS!!!!!!!!! Person stroking the cat: AHHHHHHHHH MY FACE! After awhile we just let them roam free locked in the basement until they were picked up.





> _Originally posted by Nefmariel_
> well my cats are nice, *gets a iced mocha* man I need to lay of the chocolate! *breakout* eek not another one.





> _Originally posted by Mablung_
> My motto is you can never have too much chocolate.. unless your literally dying from having too much then you should lay off.





> _Originally posted by Nefmariel_
> but i have zits galour! and the chocolate causes it but I love it! *gets another mocha *breakout** ah!





> _Originally posted by Kellivara_
> ummmmmmmmmm..........yea, well ANYWAY, could I have an iced spice mocha please?





> _Originally posted by FREEDOM!_
> Actually, chocolate does not cause zits. my cat is cool, he is very lazy, but he used to be very aggressive.





> _Originally posted by Oren_
> OK, you guys, we are really off the subject..I can kinda see why the mods want to get rid of this so much. Munchkin came on the other day and saw this and he kinda freaked out.... So, if you really want to keep this place, PLZ PLZ PLZ PLZ get back on coffee house conversation...





> _Originally posted by FREEDOM!_
> But, this is a coffee store conversation......
> 
> I'll take a cappucino.





> _Originally posted by Oren_
> okay...I just have an objective to the archery...that's getting a little out of hand.... *SHe gets up and gets her a cuppachino*





> _Originally posted by Oren_
> Just to lest you know I am a guy not a girl. Ya, the archery was a little bit ... whats the right word..... not coffee shoppish.



And it goes on and on and on and on.......well, you get my drift...

There is absolutely no thought going into those posts (even after many warnings), so there is no need to keep it. That type of convo would be perfectly suited to an IRC channel.


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## Confusticated (Oct 8, 2003)

I do not think that example with Ancalagon and Beorn (while Hilarious! ) shows how bad the Green Dragon is. It only shows how bad one situation in Green Dragon was. I think someone would have to browse through that forum to see what it is really like.

I don't know what is going on here. I don't want to have my own Inn archived or deleted, and I'd guess others think the same about their Inns. I am guessing that you mods are going to go ahead and restart Green Dragon from nothing and then keep a closer watch on it as it grows?

Or will only some of the GD threads be closed? 

This whole situation is too unclear. I can't offer any more ideas because of it.


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## Snaga (Oct 8, 2003)

I doubt that Nom. I think they will restart the Green Dragon, hate it because it will be the same as before, under-mod it because they don't want to read it, see it spiral out of control, and blame those who like it! 

Thol: you like GD. Why don't you volunteer to mod it?


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## Eledhwen (Oct 8, 2003)

I might even browse a better-moderated Green Dragon. I second Celebthol as GD Mod.


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## Confusticated (Oct 8, 2003)

I doubt it too Snaga, I just wonder if that is what they now intend to do. 

Not to be over-critical  but if it didn't work last time why should it work the next time if nothing is done differently? It could be that an agreement to give more attention to GD is enough, but I am a skeptic about it.

If you guys do want a moderator, I'd suggest looking into at least these three:

Kailita
HobbitGirl
Ledreanne313

I see no reason, not even a hint, to think they would set bad examples for the GD. In my opinion the GD people would be lucky to get someone like Kailita to moderate the place. If Any of these people truly want to care for GD, it should become a much better place. I'll add there are probably a few others over in GD who would be as well as these I suggest... so this is not to say all other GD posters look to me like they are unable. I based these suggestions on the content of their posts, which I have glanced over, stopping to read a couple here and there at random... I do not know them personality or have any idea if they'd even be interested in such a job.

I think it is better if GD has one of their own moderating it. Who wants some outsider looking down on them as they barge in saying 'get this thread back into shape or I'll close it'? And someone who values and uses the place and finds enjoyment in the job will understand and care better for it than someone who does not.

and PS: Now that RPGs are not coming back, I hope more than ever this forum is allowed to continue existing. There is a way.


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## Celebthôl (Oct 8, 2003)

I offer my services, but im pretty sure one of those other 3 would be better suited *shrugs* who knows?

I like Nóm's statement



> I think it is better if GD has one of their own moderating it. Who wants some outsider looking down on them as they barge in saying 'get this thread back into shape or I'll close it'? And someone who values and uses the place and finds enjoyment in the job will understand and care better for it than someone who does not.



It's better to have someone who knows the forum and knows what is acceptable within it, better than having an untainted observer charge in and not know how the heck things are run etc.


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## HLGStrider (Oct 8, 2003)

> At least I can spell and know the workings of English. A lot. I is capitialized.



Beorn, don't you think it is over the top to start critisizing like that in the middle of a reprimand. Reprimanding is fine, and Freedom needed it, but it sort of lowers the level of the conversation.


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## Celebthôl (Oct 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Nóm _
> *Celebthol... I saw Anc's Coffee House post... hehe hardly a good example. *



Heh heh heh, but it shows that even the chief Mod was there, looking at it, watching over it. . . (sounds like hes spying) 

What the!? Where in the name of. . . .   did i miss something? Where is your post Nóm?


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## Rhiannon (Oct 9, 2003)

Perhaps the creators/proprieters of the inns should be allowed to petition for their inn to be left up, a mod should review the inn to see if it was worthwhile, and inns that meet the requirements should be allowed to stay. Everything else could be deleted and we could start from scratch. This would cause a lot of extra work for the mods, but it would also give people a chance to salvage the higher quality inns.


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## HLGStrider (Oct 9, 2003)

It might work.

Does anyone remember the salvage operation we did in a last ditch effort to save the Long Named Dragon Bar?

We had everyone go through and delete any posts that could be possibly considered spamming. Elbereth went through and made a list of all the problem spots, and then it was up to the members to delete their mess.

It stalled the deletion of the thread by about a month.


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