# The weakness of wizards...



## ArwenStar (Sep 15, 2019)

🧙‍♂️Wizards. It is said that they were brought to challenge Sauron. But then Saruman became his ally! What makes wizards, sauron’s bane if you will, susceptible to his power. Gandalf feared to to take the one ring. (Was it because he already had one of the three, and it would interfere?)Saruman was corrupted by his power. Somewhere I read someone say something along the lines of “if it had followed my design, Gandalf would have been head of the white council”. Did this person create the istari, and if so, couldn’t they have made a anti-Sauron mechanism ? And this next bit is wild speculation, but what if at least ‘Saruman’ was just a guise put on by men, father to son or something? Not likely though... Still, I’d like thoughts on this.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 15, 2019)

ArwenStar said:


> Somewhere I read someone say


That was Galadriel.

Saruman is definitely stated to be one of the Istari -- this is expanded upon in the essay Tolkien wrote under that title.

As for Gandalf's reason for refusing the Ring, he gives it plainly enough in the scene at Bag End:

_'With that power I should have power too great and terrible. And over me the Ring would gain a power still greater and more deadly. . .Do not tempt me! For I do not wish to become like the Dark Lord himself.'_

I believe I raised the subject of the possible nuances in the meaning of the phrase "_that_ power" on a thread from last year; I'll see if I can find it, if you want. Suffice it to say here that Gandalf was fully aware of the evil inherent in possession of the Ring, and would have no truck with it.


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## Olorgando (Sep 15, 2019)

The Valar (upon the intercession of Eärendil) intervened at the end of the First Age in the War of Wrath (taking perhaps almost as many years as WW I and WW II together? Time means so little to these immortals, in crass contrast to the (human) mortals caught up in it). The result was the destruction and sinking under the sea of Beleriand (and this without Tulkas being involved! The most senior of the “Ainur” group involved seems to have been Manwë’s herald Eonwë). So they may have hesitated to send that kind of “firepower” to Middle-earth again, to oppose Sauron in the Third Age (as always, I nag grimly “why didn’t Eonwë simply clap Sauron in irons and drag him back to Valinor?!?”) The “good guys” (never gals) always having at least one hand tied behind their backs while the bad guys didn’t give **blankety-blank** about any of Eru’s prohibitions has always made me very sore against Eru (and so of course JRRT).


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 15, 2019)

Yes to that; my impression was always that the Valar decided to withdraw from direct intervention in ME, after their various First Age screwups.

To revert to Northrop Frye's fictional modes again, it's an example of the transition from Mythical to Romance mode, in which, as he puts it "the gods have retreated to the sky".

Tolkien marks the transition with the use of "Ages".

OT Aside: Kudos to Olorgando, for knowing the correct usages of "intercede" and "intervene". You'd think it was a basic requirement for writing and speech, but I find the two mistakenly used all the time -- even by "professionals". It's my inner Grammar Nazi; it makes me grind my teeth almost as much as "begging the question". 😡


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## Olorgando (Sep 15, 2019)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> … OT Aside: Kudos to Olorgando, for knowing the correct usages of "intercede" and "intervene". You'd think it was a basic requirement for writing and speech, but I find the two mistakenly used all the time -- even by "professionals". It's my inner Grammar Nazi; it makes me grind my teeth almost as much as "begging the question". 😡


Ehwot? Made me head for my Oxford University Press E-G / G-E hard-disk-saved dictionary. Hair-split territory, methinks. But then the sludge remaining of having managed 700-plus SAT scores (including a 770 on the Achievements test, now known otherwise) in the early 1970s, being a result of properly stringent schooling, have left their mark. (Now if I could just remember when we - my wife and I - went shopping in during the recent week …)


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## ArwenStar (Sep 15, 2019)

Olorgando said:


> as always, I nag grimly “why didn’t Eonwë simply clap Sauron in irons and drag him back to Valinor?!?”) The “good guys” (never gals) always having at least one hand tied behind their backs while the bad guys didn’t give **blankety-blank** about any of Eru’s prohibitions has always made me very sore against Eru (and so of course JRRT).


that is my thoughts exactly. whenever i read or watch the battle of minas tirith, and gandalf is fighting, i complain that he should just zap the orcs to pieces. he is always do that. not using his full potential while saruman uses all his magic to try to get the one ring!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯

also why do girls never do anything! Eowyn was the only girl who did more than hang around waiting for middle earth to be saved by the men **Cough Cough Arwen Cough Cough Waiting for Aragorn*
😡😡😡😡😡*


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 15, 2019)

You may like to read this thread:








Arwen: why i hate her


join me now...may all anti Arwen's unite?!!! 1.> she does nothing other then sit around and have "HOPE" that things work out!!!! if i was her, i'd be there fight along Aragorn's side. 2.>She is so forlorn, like really id be way happier then she is if i was a gazillion (exageration) yr's...




www.thetolkienforum.com


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## ArwenStar (Sep 15, 2019)

WAS JUST ON IT!!!

Great job to Squint-eyed Southerner for 1,000 likes (I was the 1000th )


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 16, 2019)

Really? Oh my!


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## Olorgando (Sep 16, 2019)

ArwenStar said:


> **Cough Cough Arwen Cough Cough Waiting for Aragorn*
> 😡😡😡😡😡*


Um - I dunno. Any guesses what she may have been doing in the 2690 years she had lived before Aragorn was even born?
Just to put that into perspective: That is about the time between now and the best guess of the time some guy named Homer (not Simpson) is reputed to have written the _Iliad_ and _Odyssey_, some centuries before Socrates, and never mind the young pups Plato and Aristotle. I mean when Gandalf and the other Istari appeared in Third Age Middle-earth, she was already over 750 years old. Or to put in the perspective of Aragorn's ancestry, when she was born in 241 TA, Valandil, Isildur's youngest son, and *grandson* of Elendil, would still rule over a united Arnor for eight years more (and Arnor would continue to exist as a united kingdom for over 600 years more). That's 38 *Dúnedain* generations back from Aragorn. JRRT is making us face time spans that are totally beyond anything we can comprehend.


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## ArwenStar (Sep 16, 2019)

true. im sure it'll be possible to find out where she got to. in Aragorn and Arwen, it said she lived in lorien for at least the time since aragorn was born.


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## irg (Oct 10, 2019)

ArwenStar said:


> 🧙‍♂️Wizards. It is said that they were brought to challenge Sauron. But then Saruman became his ally! What makes wizards, sauron’s bane if you will, susceptible to his power. Gandalf feared to to take the one ring. (Was it because he already had one of the three, and it would interfere?)Saruman was corrupted by his power. Somewhere I read someone say something along the lines of “if it had followed my design, Gandalf would have been head of the white council”. Did this person create the istari, and if so, couldn’t they have made a anti-Sauron mechanism ? And this next bit is wild speculation, but what if at least ‘Saruman’ was just a guise put on by men, father to son or something? Not likely though... Still, I’d like thoughts on this.


It IS odd, that Gandlaf says (at the end) that he was Sauron's opponent; because it is clear throughout that the wizzards are not allowed to directly interfere. That is, while Gandalf does "fight" in the movies, in the book his role is limited inspiring and advising. He has a (very) limited role in pitting his "power" against a few things of non human/mortal origin (like the balrog and witchking of Angmar) but Tolkien goes out of his way to keep Gandlaf from stabbing or pounding with his staff, any orcs or soldiers of Mordor.. So to understand their "power" one has to believe that the power to resist and strive against evil, is inherent in men. Gandalf can kindle that, and strengthen it; but he can not create it from scratch, nor exercise such power himself. It is perhaps the betrayal by Saruman of this very prohibition which damns him in the end. 

What Tolkien believes (I think) is that it is only the striving that men are capable of, not the victory. He believed in the concept of original sin, and that as he wrote, in the end neither the strength and heroism of Aragon, or the loyalty of Sam, or the courage of Frodo, or all the sacrifice, succeeded. Frodo fails at the end, he can't destroy the ring. It is only the unearned mercy of not killing Gollum that allows the ring to be destroyed. It is in it's way, God's mercy to us "undeserving" humans that blesses us. While not my own personal philosophy, it does seem to fit the restricted powers of the wizzards and our frustration with their limited roles..


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## Olorgando (Oct 10, 2019)

irg said:


> What Tolkien believes (I think) is that it is only the striving that men are capable of, not the victory. He believed in the concept of original sin, and that as he wrote, in the end neither the strength and heroism of Aragon, or the loyalty of Sam, or the courage of Frodo, or all the sacrifice, succeeded. Frodo fails at the end, he can't destroy the ring. It is only the unearned mercy of not killing Gollum that allows the ring to be destroyed. It is in it's way, God's mercy to us "undeserving" humans that blesses us. While not my own personal philosophy, it does seem to fit the restricted powers of the wizards and our frustration with their limited roles..


Point 1: "unearned mercy of not killing Gollum": I differ extremely severely! That mercy was Frodo's and nobody else's! As was Bilbo's mercy (in the second edition of The Hobbit, not the first) of doing the same.
Point 2: "God's mercy to us "undeserving" humans": thin ice. Sound very Lutheran. I have read quite a bit on the subject over the odd decade. Much too difficult to discuss here (even what I can remember off the cuff).
But then
Point 3.: JRRT's fascination with Norse mythologies. Ragnarök. The defeat of all the Norse gods (Old Norse _æsir_) and all of their supporting heroes in that final (? apparently not so) battle. The known defeat. To use Galadriel's words "we have fought the long defeat". Elsewhere - or again by Galadriel? Elrond? - "fruitless victories". Being defeated does not make you wrong. What JRRT once called "the supreme contribution of the northern spirit". Far harsher than his own Christian (Roman Catholic) beliefs of ultimate salvation. Something that (perhaps against his "will") he was not able to suppress his admiration for. His own belief did not require such hopelessness from him ...


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## Gothmog (Oct 11, 2019)

Olorgando said:


> Point 1: "unearned mercy of not killing Gollum": I differ extremely severely! That mercy was Frodo's and nobody else's! As was Bilbo's mercy (in the second edition of The Hobbit, not the first) of doing the same.
> Point 2: "God's mercy to us "undeserving" humans": thin ice. Sound very Lutheran. I have read quite a bit on the subject over the odd decade. Much too difficult to discuss here (even what I can remember off the cuff).
> But then
> Point 3.: JRRT's fascination with Norse mythologies. Ragnarök. The defeat of all the Norse gods (Old Norse _æsir_) and all of their supporting heroes in that final (? apparently not so) battle. The known defeat. To use Galadriel's words "we have fought the long defeat". Elsewhere - or again by Galadriel? Elrond? - "fruitless victories". Being defeated does not make you wrong. What JRRT once called "the supreme contribution of the northern spirit". Far harsher than his own Christian (Roman Catholic) beliefs of ultimate salvation. Something that (perhaps against his "will") he was not able to suppress his admiration for. His own belief did not require such hopelessness from him ...


Point 1: I think that irg meant "unearned by Gollum", but then again, all Mercy is unearned else it is "mitigation".
Point 2: For this it is more likely that rather than "God's mercy to us "undeserving" humans", the message is that no matter how hard humans work against evil they still need "outside help" to achieve victory.
Point 3: I doubt that it was "perhaps against his "will"" or that he felt any need to suppress admiration for it. His views on mythologies was based also on how these helped people to link to the land of their birth and to their past.


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## Olorgando (Oct 11, 2019)

Gothmog said:


> Point 1: I think that irg meant "unearned by Gollum", but then again, all Mercy is unearned else it is "mitigation".
> Point 2: For this it is more likely that rather than "God's mercy to us "undeserving" humans", the message is that no matter how hard humans work against evil they still need "outside help" to achieve victory.
> Point 3: I doubt that it was "perhaps against his "will"" or that he felt any need to suppress admiration for it. His views on mythologies was based also on how these helped people to link to the land of their birth and to their past.


Point 1: fully agree; from the "sinner's" perspective, which I failed to take into account.

Point 2: only looking at the secondary world of Middle-earth, that "outside help" was sorely lacking even for the Elves for much of what is "reported" by JRRT; Men *really* got a raw deal in that sense! I mean, a Vala and quite a few of his supporting Maiar (and such tertiary superhuman beings as Dragons, one Shelob …) were allowed to run amok for centuries of the First Age without Valinorean "outside help" being forthcoming. Then Eonwë fumbles it, leaving one of the most powerful of the Maiar again free to run amok in the Second Age (plus some of the tertiaries). The big cataclysm near the end of the Second Age? So that (known) remaining Maia was taken down the odd peg, but he managed to remain (with still enormously superhuman powers) and cause trouble for more than three millennia. The tertiaries of reptile persuasion: as Túrin had done in the First Age with Glaurung, Scatha had to be offed by Frumgar of the Éothéod (ancestors of the Rohirrim), Smaug by Bard the Bowman, another Man of the north (and to nit-pick, Eärendil, called "half-Elven", was of course also correctly half-Human through daddy Tuor; so all of the major lizards mentioned were eliminated by humans!). "Only" the Balrog of Moria, perhaps the last of his kind, was actively eliminated by any of the "outside help". If JRRT wanted to make the point that "no matter how hard humans work against evil they still need "outside help" to achieve victory", he failed miserably in his writings. Such "outside help" is for all intents and purposes totally absent for humans. Even if you take Elves as representing one aspect of humanity (with some enhanced secondary world abilities) we're still pretty much in Ragnarök territory.

Point 3: yes, even "perhaps against his "will"" looks to be wide of the mark. "Hesitantly" might come closer. JRRT was quite aware of the dark sides of heathenism (and the "Anglo-Saxons" of Hengist and Horsa were by any conceivable Christian definition heathens), which he excised from his "Anglo-Saxon" avatars in LoTR, the Rohirrim - who also have the odd touch of the Huns (also very much sanitized) about them. It may be in "Letters" that he commented on the bog bodies, among others the Tollund Man, found in 1950 on the Jutland peninsula in Denmark. While not on the scale of the mass murder perpetrated by the Aztecs in Mexico much later, the practice of ritual human sacrifice in the countries bordering the North Sea during the pre-Roman Iron Age seems to have been quite wide-spread. Or think of his "The Homecoming of Beorhtnoth Beorhthelm's Son" - originally published in 1953 in volume 6 of the scholarly journal Essays and Studies by Members of the English Association, as per Wikipedia - which I have in my paperback 2001 expanded edition of "Tree and Leaf". A kind of coda to a fragment of a poem now known as "The Battle of Maldon", thought to be contemporary of the historical battle fought between the forces of the duke of Essex, the mentioned Beorhtnoth, and a plundering Viking host. The battle was lost, Beorhtnoth's forces slaughtered, and the hinterland opened to the ravaging Viking plunderers, due to a misplaced remnant of what JRRT called "northern courage", called "ofermod". To a native German speaker, this immediately conjures up "Übermut", a term just one step down from "Tollkühn" ("rash-bold", foolhardy), so linked to JRRT's family name. The tale is seen by most as a severe critique of such aristocratic (and by then known to be a specifically "Anglo-Saxon" deficit?) arrogance and pride, as the English forces, holding a "bridge" or causeway against the superior Viking forces, could have slaughtered *them* to the last man (had the Vikings been so rash as to press the attack heedless of losses). Beorhtnoth, upon being asked by the Vikings for leave to cross the ford "so that a fair fight could be joined", fell prey to his "fair-play" lunacy (and "chivalry", a term that the Vikings certainly had never heard of at home), accepted the challenge and allowed the to cross. JRRT takes Beorhtnoth severely to task over this, basically stating that Beorhtnoth's *only* duty here was to slaughter as many Vikings as possible, preferably *all* of them.


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## Gothmog (Oct 11, 2019)

For "outside help" I was not referring to the Valar. I think we agree that the Valar did far less than they should have done throughout the first three ages. However, even had they done all that they could have during this time then still by the end of the Third age they would have been withdrawing from Middle-earth as the Dominion of Men was beginning and therefore there was far less that they were able to do having come to the end of what should have been their time of direct involvement in Middle-earth. The outside help that Men (and Hobbits) needed during the War of the Ring was truly "Outside". Help from outside of Arda completely, from Eru Iluvatar himself. Even Gandalf was only able to finish his work because he was sent back from outside with enhanced power, sent back by Eru.

Point 3: "Hesitantly" or perhaps "Limited". There are many parts of Norse Mythology that Tolkien clearly found very admirable and no doubt other parts not so much as you point out in the case of the Rohirrim.


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## Phantom718 (Oct 11, 2019)

In fantasy, explanations to why and why not questions are usually interpreted by the reader/viewer. Even the _absence_ of an explanation can be an explanation. But sometimes things occur or don't occur "just because", and thus that is usually the simplest and most likely answer. It's frustrating, but often what we don't know is more interesting. 

- Take the age-old question of why didn't the eagles just fly Frodo to Mt. Doom to destroy the ring? Well, many have speculated that 1.) That would make for a very short story, 2.) Sauron would see them coming and unleash every fell beast he had on them. But the most accurate is probably 3.) The eagles just didn't want to get involved to that extent.

- Why didn't Aragorn command the Dead Army to march with them on Mordor and finish off Sauron's army? They had the power to do so, but that wasn't their destiny. They were only supposed to fulfill their oath and defend Minas Tirith, not attack Mordor. Could they have done so even if Aragaorn asked them to? Maybe, maybe not. Who knows what those "rules" were. But again the simplest answer is probably just because they weren't supposed to. 

- Why didn't Gandalf just zap all the orcs away at Pellenor as an earlier post suggested? Who knows. Could he have? Maybe. Was it written somewhere that his power was limited in a way by Sauron's/the One Ring's influence?


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## Olorgando (Oct 11, 2019)

Phantom718 said:


> In fantasy, explanations to why and why not questions are usually interpreted by the reader/viewer. Even the _absence_ of an explanation can be an explanation. But sometimes things occur or don't occur "just because", and thus that is usually the simplest and most likely answer. It's frustrating, but often what we don't know is more interesting.


I had quite a few "er, well .." things pop into my mind for all of your points. But what we don't know being more interesting kind of is *the* point: it is more interesting because it leaves room for our own imagination to take flight in all sorts of directions (in general terms something quite approved of by JRRT). And by nature, we revel in our *own* wild flights of fancy, but shake our heads and roll our eyes and whatnot at those "impossible" flights of fancy undertaken by others. That's quite OK, they're doing the same at ours …


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## Phantom718 (Oct 11, 2019)

Olorgando said:


> I had quite a few "er, well .." things pop into my mind for all of your points. But what we don't know being more interesting kind of is *the* point: it is more interesting because it leaves room for our own imagination to take flight in all sorts of directions (in general terms something quite approved of by JRRT). And by nature, we revel in our *own* wild flights of fancy, but shake our heads and roll our eyes and whatnot at those "impossible" flights of fancy undertaken by others. That's quite OK, they're doing the same at ours …



Those are good points, and also a reminder that virtually nothing is impossible in the world of fantasy. At the very least, few things cannot be explained away with the old standard "it's magic" reasoning 

When it comes to Tolkien, my personal curiosities revolve around the unknown of the what ifs - not because of reasoning, but because of what is not explained. In another thread I speculated on what happened to Grond (Morgoth's mace) for example. Or what remains of Carn Dum in the TA/FA...what would be there/what it would look like if someone ventured there for the hell of it? Or if anyone in the FA ever walked over to Mordor and sifted through the ruins of Barad-Dur just for fun. Would they find weapons? Jewelry? etc. I essentially put myself in those situations...as in, if *I* lived in ME during the TA/FA, I personally would love to visit those ruins and sift through the rubble to see what remained


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## 1stvermont (Nov 4, 2019)

ArwenStar said:


> that is my thoughts exactly. whenever i read or watch the battle of minas tirith, and gandalf is fighting, i complain that he should just zap the orcs to pieces. he is always do that. not using his full potential while saruman uses all his magic to try to get the one ring!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯
> 
> also why do girls never do anything! Eowyn was the only girl who did more than hang around waiting for middle earth to be saved by the men **Cough Cough Arwen Cough Cough Waiting for Aragorn*
> 😡😡😡😡😡*




Galadriel?


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## CirdanLinweilin (Nov 4, 2019)

Olorgando said:


> Point 2: "God's mercy to us "undeserving" humans": thin ice. Sound very Lutheran. I have read quite a bit on the subject over the odd decade. Much too difficult to discuss here (even what I can remember off the cuff).


You do realize Tolkien said that Eru caused Gollum's little spill over the cliff in Mount Doom? 


CL


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