# Will the inborn greed be the downfall of the dwarven race?



## Arvedui (Oct 14, 2003)

Another topic taken from the Debate-Tournament. I really wondered where this should be posted, but I ended up here.

*Will the inborn greed be the downfall of the dwarven race?* 

Enjoy


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## BlackCaptain (Oct 14, 2003)

I think so. If you compare them to the Noldor, who of all Elves had the most greed and lust for things of value, the similarities could be shocking. 

In my opinion, greed in Tolkien's works almost always ends up in downfall and destruction. Just look where the Noldor and their high-kings ended up. 

Any contradicting opinions?


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## YayGollum (Oct 14, 2003)

Argh! Of course! Yay Dwarves! Anyways, I'd have to ask what degree of downfall you people feel like talking about before I got into this too much. If you mean the tiniest bit of downfall, I'd have to write ---> Sure, why not?


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## Starflower (Oct 17, 2003)

certainly during the First Age dwarves were much more greedy and possessive about their wealth than in later years, just look at the commotion over Nauglamir. SO I would say yes, their inborn greed was certainly a major factor in the downfall of the great dwarven cities,and contributed as well to the destruction of Elven kingdoms such as Nargothrond and Doriath.
Greedy little buggers, weren't they ?


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## Eledhwen (Oct 17, 2003)

I have to agree with YayGollum on this one. Tolkien might have had the gold lust cause the downfall of Dwarves on an individual basis, but the race itself seemed to suffer more from lack of females and would therefore peter out. Looking at modern life, greed is what oils the wheels of western society, and secretly is probably at the heart of the rest of the world's regimes too. Occasionally one or two players get found out for being too greedy and are toppled, either politically or physically (killed); but while the rest keep their wealth-lust a _hidden_ agenda, they remain standing. In Tolkien's world, there is a divine justice at work that brings about the demise of of individual baddies like Mim, and those who need to be brought to their senses like Thorin, but as a race. The Dwarf Kingdom at Moria was brought down by over-mining (thinks... how interesting it would be if one of the vast modern open-cast mines dug a bit too deep and awoke a balrog... "This is NBC news reporting..."). Generally, though, and especially after Moria, Dwarves had enough collective sense to manage their greed.


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## Lantarion (Oct 18, 2003)

Eledhwen, sounds interesting! I almost buy your Divine Justice-theory. 
But how was Mîm a baddie?? 

I would agree thuogh, that the Dwarven race would have enough sense to _not_ get themselves wiped out over some greedy aspirations.. However, it seems that while many other so-called "Dwarven" races in various modern fantasy stories have mechanics and ingenious machinery as their defining perk (the best-executed of which I think is the race of the Dwemer in the epic rpg game, 'Morrowind'), I'd say that greed or ambition would be that of Tolkien's 'Noegyth'.


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## Eledhwen (Oct 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lantarion _
> *Eledhwen, sounds interesting! I almost buy your Divine Justice-theory.
> But how was Mîm a baddie??
> *


The simplest answer is to quote the index from the silmarillion: _ Mîm_: The Petty-dwarf in whose house on Amon Rudh Turin dwelt with the outlaw band, and by whom their lair was betrayed to the orcs.."

Bad enough for you? OK, he had his reasons....


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## YayGollum (Oct 20, 2003)

No, that's not bad enough for me. I've always liked Mim. Very fun to read about. Very tragic, too. And misunderstood and things. oh well. Full of self-preservation. Yay!  One of my favorites from The Sil. Not a bad guy at all. Beleg was definitely evil, though.


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 23, 2003)

hmhmm I think that inborn greed is the reason for the downfall of the dwarven race as much as the desire for absolute happiness(immortality)is the reason for the Fall of Numenor.
I believe there were some other factors whichi influenced the dwarven fall.Why not the conservative life in the caves?Or probably there was a mistake in their design.
They were created by Aule and he is not Eru.I mean that Aule didn't have all the abilities to create something as good as people or elves.I suppose there was a kind of defect in the dwarven gene.

This was very stipid idea,but I'm too lazy to think right now,after midnight!!!Just a joke.


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## HLGStrider (Oct 24, 2003)

Yes and no.

It'd be a factor, but I think the dwarves also have a few other problems. They're stubborn. They really don't breed much. They fight a lot and are constantly picking to settle where there are Goblins, Balrogs, and Dragons nearby. . .

But the Dwarves could make it. 

There is a difference between dwarfish greed and dwarvish inguinuity and work ethic. The desire to work, to create, to gain more of a good thing. . .it can be twisted into greed, but it can also be the driving force of culture. . .and has been often. I think it is a mistake to classify all desire to mine or amass wealth as "greed."


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 24, 2003)

hmmh I like Elgee' s words.And I think she is right,it depeneds on the way every dwarf will take.


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## elf_queen (Nov 12, 2003)

I don't think so. 

Sure, dwarves love gold, jewels, mithril, ect. But I don't think that they would ever run after any precious substance, even mithril, into danger. 

Consider this, said by Gimli in the Paths of the Dead: 



> 'Does he feel no fear?' muttered the Dwarf. 'In any other cave Gimli Gloin's on would have been the first to run to the gleam of gold. But not here! Let it lie!'



Dwarves do hoard riches more than the other races, and they may go out on a limb to get some more, but they wouldn't risk their lives for it when doing so would be almost certain death. Also, if the Dwarves have survived this long with their thirst for riches, then why wouldn't they survive any longer?


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## Morgoth (Nov 12, 2003)

I think that the fundemental flaw of the Dwarves is not their greed, but their short legs. Only joking.  
No, I believe the flaw of the Dwarves is their inability to adapt to anything. Their greed drove themselves to great levels, it was pure coincidence that the Balrog was there. Their inability to adapt, failed them though, and blocked themselves from the affairs of the outside. And as is seen throughout the ages of Middle Earth, if you do not ally yourself, you shall fall.


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## kohaku (Nov 13, 2003)

I disagree that dwarves are greedy, and that this "greed" would be their downfall. Others have already mentioned some of my reasons for believing this. They treasure the products of their mining and crafting abilities, not for the material objects that they are, but for the expertise and effort that went into their creation or extraction. Their endeavors are driven by pride, not greed. Such characteristics would not lead to the destruction of a race; rather, pride in one's work results in a strong work ethic, to the betterment of the race. 

Another thing... specifically what downfall are we talking about? A hypothetical downfall, or something that actually happened?


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