# Question concerning Ainur



## LotharArmstrong (Aug 28, 2002)

Silly question really but its about the "colours" of the Ainur. Gandalf was Grey (then white), Saruman was White, and Radagast was brown. Are these colours a reflection of their ability with "magic" and are there any other colours?


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## Beorn (Aug 28, 2002)

First off, the wizards are _Maiar_ (singular, _Maia_). The Ainur were one step above the Maiar.

Check out Who are the Wizards?, Question about Wizards, and The 5 Rods.

For the same information about the wizards three times in a row...
(hehehe)

As far as I know, there aren't any links between color and power, except what your mind may create: White = Most powerful, Grey = has to do with smoke (and therefore fire), Brown = has to do with earth....but then again, you could link any color to anything if you put your mind to it...


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## Dark_wraith (Aug 28, 2002)

well i dunno about you but if colours reflect abilities then i think radagast the 'brown' should be avoided!!!! (scary name!!)


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## pohuist (Aug 28, 2002)

I think Maiar were patr of the Ainur, so I don't see how Ainur were one step above.

I belive you could infer that White is the most powerful as first Saruman and then Gandalf were the most powerful. Grey to me is not fire and smoke but rather very close to white, so, second in power.


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## Beorn (Aug 28, 2002)

Check out Maiar and Ainur. You're right that the Maia are Ainur, but they are 'lesser Ainur'


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## pohuist (Aug 28, 2002)

They are indeed lesser Ainur, but that "Ainur are one step above" does not follow from that. What follows is that some Ainur are lesser than others, Maiar being lesser and Valar being higher.


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## Gil-Galad (Aug 31, 2002)

There're also two blue Maiar who came in Me wiht Gandalf,Radagast an Saruman.They went to the south and eastern parts of Me and nothing is known about them anymore.It's belived that they started doing things similar to the voodo magics,kabalah, etc....


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## Gil-Galad (Aug 31, 2002)

There're also two blue Maiar who came in Me wiht Gandalf,Radagast an Saruman.They went to the south and eastern parts of Me and nothing is known about them anymore.It's belived that they started doing things similar to the voodo magics,kabalah, etc....


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## Edhel-dûr (Aug 31, 2002)

Yes, the Ithryn Luin, their names were Alatar and Pallando.

Greetings.


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## Gil-Galad (Aug 31, 2002)

Geetings for what?


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## Edhel-dûr (Aug 31, 2002)

It is the translation of the Spanish word "saludos".

Greetings XD


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## Gil-Galad (Aug 31, 2002)

oooo......than I'll say :"Pozdravi!"
it's the bulgarian word for greetings.....


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## HLGStrider (Sep 1, 2002)

And I'll say greetings, the English word for Greetings...

You can also call them Istari.

If there was any meaning I think it was physcological, to Tolkien alone. Colors mean and evoke different meanings to different people... personally I think they picked the color they thought brought out their eyes best...


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## Grond (Sep 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Edhel-dûr _
> *Yes, the Ithryn Luin, their names were Alatar and Pallando.
> 
> Greetings. *


Tolkien never definitively set down what their names were nor whether there missions were successful. These quotes show the confused and unsettled state in which the author left the Blue Wizards.


> _from Unfinished Tales_
> "Others there were also: two clad in sea-blue,..."
> 
> and this
> ...


Yet there is an entirely different explanation for the Ithryn Luin in the People's of Middle-earth where it states


> _from The People's of Middle-earth_
> "The 'other two' came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age. Glorfindel was sent to aid Elrond and was (though not yet said) pre-eminent in the war of Eriador. But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinehtar and Romestamo. Darkness-slayer and East-helper. Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion ... and after hsi first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause [?dissension and disarray] among the dark East ... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West."


So there you have it. Two completely different explanations of "The Blue Wizards".


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## Lhunithiliel (Sep 1, 2002)

> for they passed into the East with Curunir,



Well, thanks to Grond ( *bows*) I have learned about the other explanation about the two mistirious Istari. Yet, the above quote makes me willing to speculate about their fate. - You know how it is- when there is no sufficient information, we tend to speculate!  

So, if these two came to ME *WITH * Curunir (Saruman) could we possibly expect that they were in fact Saruman's allies, under his command and therefore - they could have well failed to fulfill the task they had been initially sent with, because they actually had accepted to serve Saruman's aims. 

Sorry for the long and complicated sentense!


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## Ceorl (Sep 1, 2002)

Lhunj I have to disagree with you on that. When they first arrived in ME all of the Istari were faithful to the valar and their task. Also they were all allies, one to the other. They Blue wizards were not under the command of Saruman in particular. In Aman they were associated with different hosts completely, the Blue Wizards with Orome, and Saruman with Aule. 

Also it is believed that when they journeyed into the East Saruman was still loyal to his cause. It was easy to link the Blue's to the East of ME, as their master Orome was one of the few of the Valar who had any knowledge of the inner parts of ME. He rode there long before the coming of the Elves even, so it is natural to assume that he would have passed on his knowledge to those of his host.


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## Edhel-dûr (Sep 1, 2002)

There is an interesting note of C.Tolkien about the fragment of the Peoples of Middle Earth:

"There are clear evidences of confusion(as he said at one point, `my memory is no longer retentive´); but there are elements in them that are of much interest and should be recorded."(Last Writtings)

So the quote of the Peoples concerning the names of the Istari is very confused ok? and you must see it as complementary information.

And what´s more, at the end of the text they are named again as Alatar and Pallando because Tolkien was thinking in his text of Unfinished Tales to complete it.

There is another quote in the Unfinish Tales that i don´t have in english but they are called Alatar and Pallando again.

So the quotes aren´t contradictory, they are complementary and there is no doubt about their names: Alatar and Pallando.

Greetings.


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## Gil-Galad (Sep 7, 2002)

Lhunithiliel,I agree with Ceorl too.While the five Maiar lived in Valinor they were really faithful.But with human bodies they weren't protected from the "human"weakness.I mean that they would go in power of the evil(as Saruman did)or they would lose or forget their real aim(like Radagast who prefered to spend his time with the animals and the whole nature).That's why Saruman became "bad" long after he had arrived in ME.


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## Grond (Sep 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Edhel-dûr _
> *There is an interesting note of C.Tolkien about the fragment of the Peoples of Middle Earth:
> 
> "There are clear evidences of confusion(as he said at one point, `my memory is no longer retentive´); but there are elements in them that are of much interest and should be recorded."(Last Writtings)
> ...


Alatar is mentioned four times in UT and Pallando is mentioned five times. The fact that they are mentioned more often gives no more credence as it simply provides filler information concerning their affiliation with their particular Vala and their own special friendship. I also see it as no more definitive than the Last Writings in HoMe XII because neither work was published during the author's lifetime. What we have is the son, CT trying to make sense of the writings of his father. It should be noted that Last Writings were written much later than the sections in UT and as such would likely reflect JRRT's later decisions.


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Lhunithiliel _
> *
> 
> So, if these two came to ME WITH  Curunir (Saruman) could we possibly expect that they were in fact Saruman's allies, under his command and therefore - they could have well failed to fulfill the task they had been initially sent with, because they actually had accepted to serve Saruman's aims. *



I wouldn't go that far,Saruman is powerful,but doesn't possess such supreme power as to draw 2 maiar (one of them,Allatar I think,was supposedly very very powerful) to himself and even command them.
I agree with Tolkien - the Ithryn Luin succeeded in their task,whatever it was...


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## Grond (Sep 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *I wouldn't go that far,Saruman is powerful,but doesn't possess such supreme power as to draw 2 maiar (one of them,Allatar I think,was supposedly very very powerful) to himself and even command them.
> I agree with Tolkien - the Ithryn Luin succeeded in their task,whatever it was... *


LOL! Depends on whether you believe J. R. R. T. when he wrote this...


> _from Unfinished Tales, The Istari, Note 3_
> In a letter written in 1958 my father said that he knew nothing clearly about "the other two," since they were not concerned in the history oh the North-west of Middle-earth. "I think," he wrote, "they went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Numenorean range: missionaries to enemy-occupied lands, as it were. What success they had I do not know; *but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron."*


or when he wrote this...


> _from The People's of Middle-earth_
> The 'other two' came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age. Glorfindel was sent to aid Elrond and was (though not yet said) pre-eminent in the war of Eriador.* But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinehtar and Romestamo. Darkness-slayer and East-helper. Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion* ... and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause [?dissension and disarray] among the dark East ... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West.


Who do you believe??? Tolkien or Tolkien?? LOL!


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## HLGStrider (Sep 15, 2002)

I find Tolkien more trustworthy that Tolkien, personally...

As for the name thing, think of how many names Gandalf had. Is it possible that they did have more than one name, one set of which were those mentioned? 

Personally I think I need to reread all this, but I'm not sure about struggling with the local library again to get those books...


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## Grond (Sep 15, 2002)

Elgee, the names really aren't the issue, rather the Ithryn Luin's final destination and their final destiny is what is really being discussed. On the one hand, Tolkien tells us they surely failed in their mission and pretty much caved to Sauron and in the other saying they were likely successful in their mission by turning many in the East from Melkor/Sauron worship. 

Note: The last scenario from The Peoples of Middle-earth doesn't wash with the Letters where Tolkien says all failed in their mission save Gandalf.


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## Walter (Sep 16, 2002)

In the issue about the names of the _Ithryn Luin_ the Blue Wizards I find myself in agreement with Grond (hear, hear ). Tolkien (JRR) doesn't seem to make a connection between them and the names Alatar and Pallando, respectively Morinehtar and Rómestámo (or Róme(n)star), only Christopher does.


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## Aldanil (Sep 21, 2002)

*Fanfare for the Flattener of Finwe!*

Bravo for Bauglir's Battle-Banger!

"Greetings" to Grond, who best makes the case that we're really graced with a conundrum re these Ithryn Luin: beyond the differences in the two pairs of names for them given, the separation in time for their arrival in Middle-earth is fully an Age of the world! My own sense of which version to prefer or hold more reliable leans toward accepting & affirming the POME account on general principle as being the later, all else being equal; the consideration of coherence within the larger published context, which (necessarily) led Christopher to certain editorial decisions regarding The Silmarillion and his father's hopeful but very late intention to recast it substantially, seems less important in this case, as both these answers to the riddle of the Blue Wizards are brief, self-contained, and fairly fragmentary. I rather get the feeling from the Letters that there were quite a number of questions about the myriad details of Middle-earth which hadn't made much particular claim on their sub-Creator's attention until prompted by the inquiry of his admiring readers.

To put forward two fairly well-known examples in support of the point, the fact that John Ronald freely admitted knowing no better than the hobbits did themselves just who Strider was when first they met him in Bree, and that the noble Ringbearer who shares an equinoctial birthday with his uncle Bilbo on Sunday (it presently being the small hours of Saturday morning as I ramble thus garrulous) was named "Bingo" [!!] for some goodly while in the early stages of LOTR's evolution, clearly illustrates the *revelatory* nature of Tolkien's working method for Tale-making: not "making stuff up" but rather exploring, excavating like an archaeologist with tools narrative, intuitive, and primarily linguistic to uncover and reconstruct the true history of Arda, delving ever deeper over time to find the _mithril_ lying hidden.

The first account, from 1958, reflects IMHO a relatively low level of speculative energy brought to bear on this matter of "the other two"; we do know that JRRT had a lot else on his mind in that decade, nearly the first half of which was consumed with the considerable struggle just to get LOTR into print! (Which difficulty truly seems astonishing in retrospect, doesn't it? Like those other British recording companies who decided to pass on the chance to put the Beatles under contract...) Among the sharpest pangs I felt as a sophomore in college that day in early September twenty-nine summers ago when I heard Tolkien had died was that now I would never have the chance to send him the letter I'd been drafting in my head since freshman year in high school, to offer my sincerest rune-enhanced adulation and inquire eagerly after whatever more might be known of the unnamed Istari. I never did write to ask, alas, but dozens if not hundreds of others must have; and the later account presented in HOME XII seems to me the product of a more sustained (and substantially more positive, if still quite undeveloped) attention to the question.

A useful focus for our own "archaeological" and discursive energies on the subject might be the linguistic resonance and implications of the two pairs of names: the earlier Alatar and Pallando sound a different note in my semi-discerning ear for Elvish echoes than the later appellations of Morinehtar and Romestamo, the latter of which seems especially redolent of Orome. Certainly "Darkness-slayer and East-helper" offer greater possibilities for speculation on subsequent subtle or indirect influence, and it makes me happier to think that the Valar had a better day at the plate than to go only one for five in their emissary-sending...


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## Grond (Sep 21, 2002)

Man, I've missed you Aldanil. Where the heck have you been?


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## HLGStrider (Sep 22, 2002)

Alandil, I would like you to know that I find your posts slightly sadistic!

How can I get done in a half hour if you do this to me?!?!?!? urg........................................................... sigh.... Now I have to actually think...


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## Gil-Galad (Sep 28, 2002)

"Slightly sadistic"?HLGStrider,you're so polite with Aldanil.
I must cofess this is one of the bes posts I have ever read


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## HLGStrider (Sep 29, 2002)

It was a good post, but it was sadistic because I get back from college and I am thinking I will get online and relax and not think too deeply, just enough to deal with life, and then there is this huge post and now I HAVE to think... It is sadistic.

And that was a long sentence....


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## pohuist (Sep 30, 2002)

Aldanil, with all due respect, there is a thing called "." and it helps to have more than one of those in a paragraph. (I have always been taught that a paragraph is a number of sentences, not one sentence)

Great post, though...


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## Lantarion (Oct 1, 2002)

Pretty damn good post [for being written in the small hours of Saturday morning]!!  
Welcome home, Aldanil.


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> *It was a good post, but it was sadistic because I get back from college and I am thinking I will get online and relax and not think too deeply, just enough to deal with life, and then there is this huge post and now I HAVE to think... It is sadistic.
> 
> And that was a long sentence.... *


You should try to think harder and longer.When you become a famouse scientist you'll have to think .......wow.........VERY MUCH  ,that will be sadistic.Now just have a rest and see how's your cat !


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## HLGStrider (Oct 5, 2002)

He's fine except that he got into a cat fight with the big mean stray tabby who lives in the barn and his ear was cut pretty bad... poor darling... 

not scientist... writer... writer writer writer.


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> *He's fine except that he got into a cat fight with the big mean stray tabby who lives in the barn and his ear was cut pretty bad... poor darling...
> 
> not scientist... writer... writer writer writer. *


Ok. don't be so nervous .You'll be a writer.If I were you I would go to a doctor to see your cat's ear.


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## HLGStrider (Oct 5, 2002)

He'll be okay. Cats are self-healing and it isn't bad enough to need stitches... though it certainly doesn't help him cosmetically.


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> *He'll be okay. Cats are self-healing and it isn't bad enough to need stitches... though it certainly doesn't help him cosmetically. *


I think you should buy him some cosmetics


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## HLGStrider (Oct 11, 2002)

It's a good thing I know an avon lady...


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> *It's a good thing I know an avon lady...  *


OO give her to me!My dog needs some cosmetics too


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## HLGStrider (Oct 11, 2002)

Would the dog like some eyeshadow?  

hmmmmmmm


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 11, 2002)

I'll check!!!


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