# Mirkwood - Sauron's unusual abode



## Ithrynluin (Sep 29, 2008)

Isn't it strange that an evil power would choose to reside in a forest of all places? What is more, we're talking about Sauron, a Maia of Aulë who had quite the disdain for the natural world to begin with.

Why do you think he chose it?


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## HLGStrider (Sep 29, 2008)

A forest can be wholesome and beautiful, but it can also have huge spiders, sleep inducing streams, and nasty blinking eyes in the darkness . . . in other words, it is a natural barrier almost as good as a chain of razor sharp mountains or a rushing river, anything to slow down outsiders and hamper spies. 

Sauron was able to very quickly transform "Greenwood the Great" into "Mirkwood." Apparently forests are just as corruptible as anything else. Sauron would probably take great delight in ruining the Wood Elves home. 

Other than that, it could've been a matter of "the last place they'd look." 

And it has some proximity to the Anduin. He was definitely on the look out for the ring at this time, and while I'm not certain he had pegged the probable location as the Anduin yet, he might've had some inkling that this was a decent place to start.


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 29, 2008)

Yes, I reckon searching for the Ring might have been a primary motivator, but I imagine Sauron might have been quite iffy about living in a forest. Perhaps something like this might have transpired:

Sauron: *dismisses Nazgul with wave of hand* Now go, go! Go make everything ready there. And make sure none of that green stuff touches my bed....Eeew now you got me thinking about it." 

Granted, Dol Guldur was a barren hill, but it was still surrounded by an abundance of living things. So I'm thinking, why not choose Moria as a base of operations for searching the Anduin? It was nice and dank and secretive...


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## Gilthoniel (Sep 29, 2008)

Well surely the dwarves were still in Moria at that time...
Overpowering them would have created a rather big 'hoo-ha', and would have cost valuable time and energy sorting it out..


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## HLGStrider (Sep 29, 2008)

BTW, I know Sauron tends to destroy green things, but is there any place it says he actually couldn't bear to touch/see/think about green things. I mean, I don't see him gardening in his spare time but I really don't see him having a big plant phobia either. The Nazgul are said to be afraid of water, but I don't see them fleeing from plants. 

http://www.hulu.com/watch/16417/saturday-night-live-googly-eyes-gardener

Of course, we all know, plants are very scary.


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## YayGollum (Sep 29, 2008)

Argh! Where is it written that Maiar types under Aule had disdain for the natural world? Or even that Aule did? Is it uncommon knowledge that Aule was the dude in charge of the earth? Not only does this include mountains and caves and minerals and other such things (which are - Argh! - just as natural as trees), but why forget the - Ack! *eye twitch* - types of land famous for supporting all kinds of plant life? Tolkien didn't write that Aule and his ilk only cared for rocks (which are natural! Why is this forgotten?). They were the earth dudes. 

Ah, anyways, I guess that it could be confusing as to why an evil-oriented sort of character would choose a woodsy realm, when they traditionally choose elsewise. I say that he chose that place because he seemed to be within cognito, only being referred to as The Necromancer, and Sauron, an already well-known evil-oriented type, was known to choose the aforementioned elsewise locales. No? 

Towards why he didn't choose Moria ---> Less of a chance of getting kicked out before he'd gathered himself. Those crazy Dwarves could decide to reclaim the place at any point. Bad memories. He totally used to hang out there, back when he was calling himself Annatar.


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## Gilthoniel (Sep 29, 2008)

Maybe he didn't like gardens because he knew how easy it to lose jewellery when gardening...
I've lost count of how many times a ring of power has slipped off my finger and into the loam!


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## Gordis (Sep 30, 2008)

I agree with YayGollum. Why would a former maia of Aule hate natural things? Especially considering that Yavanna was Aule's spouse?
For all we know Sauron might have enjoyed forests...

As for the poor misunderstood nazgul - remember what was there in the Morgul Vale? - Flowers, right. Gorgeous white flowers.


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 30, 2008)

By "natural world" I meant animate, living things. 

As for Aulë & Yavanna, there was clearly a rift between them when it came to their views on living things, so the mentioning of Yavanna serves rather to prove my point than as evidence against it.

Furthermore, Aulë's children were out of snyc with nature, having to trade for food with other races, which reveals they had no affinity with or desire for dealing with living things. 

I also doubt that Saruman was getting misty-eyed when he had that chunk of Entwood chopped down to fuel his machinery.

Consider also Sauron's disdain in this passage:



> _The History of Middle-earth X; Myths Transformed_
> Gandalf he [Sauron] did not understand. But certainly he had already become evil, and therefore stupid, enough to imagine that his different behaviour was due simply to weaker intelligence and lack of firm masterful purpose. He was only a rather cleverer Radagast - cleverer, because it is more profitable (more productive of power), to become absorbed in the study of people than of animals.


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## YayGollum (Sep 30, 2008)

I figured that that is what you meant, ithrynluin person. I just went on a rant because it just keeps happening, and I felt the need to get the word out that Dwarves are just earthy elves.  

I figure that Aule's reaction to Yavanna's crazy Ent idea came from surprise that she'd suddenly turn the tools that he had no problem with helping her out with the growth of into people, as well as the scoff of (even though his estimation of what the capitalized Children would look like was a bit off), "Giant tree people? Do you listen to yourself, woman? Ha! That's nothing like what Eru has planned!" That scene was all about special Kids just for them, and Aule thought that his approach made lots more sense, that's all. 

He was all kinds of in sync with the aspect of nature that you're typing about. Sure, the Dwarves aren't as sync with plants as the elves are, but the Dwarves have about the same amount of disdain for elves not being as good at earthy type stuff as they are. 

Also, Saruman and Sauron should not be held as awesome examples of what an Aule type Ainur is like, since they were turned into bad guys, of course. Aule's type was chosen because they were the most intelligent, and intelligent bad guys are the scariest.


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## HLGStrider (Sep 30, 2008)

I don't see Aule as having a contempt for Yavanna's handy work. After all, they didn't immediately file into Eru's court demanding an annulment. More of I see a pragmatism, seeing what his wife has as something to be used rather than lauded. Sort of like the father who wants to know where the kid is going to get the money for rent when the mother is all excited that their talented child wants to be an artist. His response to her begging up the Ents isn't "Oh no you di'int" but rather a simple, "Well, that's fine, Dwarves are still going to need wood." 

I think creatures of Aule would have a natural tendency to stone, fire, and riches. However, without stones you don't have earth and without earth you don't have trees. 

I see a disdain for Gandalf and people who think differently in that passage. Not necessarily for plants. 

Also, it is one thing to prefer stone to trees and quite another to have a crippling dislike for them. I just don't see that this dislike would be strong enough to keep Sauron from Mirkwood if it were for any reason convenient. 

Maybe he prefered tile to hardwood floors and got really upset when the Nazgul painted the interior of Minas Morgul Eggshell instead of Eggplant too, but I think an evil overlord would put aside his own decorating preferences to live where evilness required at the moment.


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## Gordis (Sep 30, 2008)

Please consider that both Sauron and Saruman achieved outstanding results in gentic engineering. While in Mirkwood, Sauron made Olog-hai - a new race of trolls not affected by daylight. Likely he was the one who bred first uruks somewhere around TA 2400. 
Also remember the Fell Beasts. 


> A creature of an older world maybe it was, whose kind, lingering in forgotten mountains cold beneath the Moon, outstayed their day, and in hideous eyrie bred this last untimely brood, apt to evil. And the Dark Lord took it, and nursed it with fell meats, until it grew beyond the measure of all other things that fly; and he gave it to his servant to be his steed.


I would say Sauron's achievements in the realm of Yavanna were quite impressive. 
Perhaps the Maiar of Aule took some extra lessons from Yavanna?


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## Alcuin (Sep 30, 2008)

If *Ithy* is asking why Sauron chose Mirkwood as his “unusual abode,” the reason is exactly what *Elgee* said: he had learned the whereabouts of Isildur’s battle with the orcs and likely demise, and he was hunting for the Ring. N'est-ce pas? Or have we dispensed with this already?


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## Úlairi (Dec 8, 2008)

There is another reason also; and I hope I'm not flogging a dead horse here:



> *Unfinished Tales: The Quest of Erebor*
> 
> '...I knew Sauron had arisen again and would soon declare himself, and I knew that *he was preparing for a great war*. How would he begin? Would he first try to re-occupy Mordor, or would he first attack the chief strongholds of his enemies? I thought then, and I am sure now, *that to attack Lórien and Rivendell, as soon as he was strong enough, was his original plan. It would have been a much better plan for him, and much worse for us.*
> 'You may think that Rivendell was out of his reach, but I did not think so. The state of things in the North was very bad...'


 
So, Dol Guldur from a militarily strategic point of view was in proximity to enable a pre-emptive strike against the "chief strongholds of his enemies". The effects of such a strike would have been devastating, and IMO, if successful; the Ring would never have made it to the Shire.


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## Alcuin (Dec 8, 2008)

I don’t know if that horse is dead or not, *Ú*. Let’s see if it moves if we flog it together.

I think the primary reason for building on Amon Lanc must have been to search for the One Ring. The Tale of Years says that “a shadow [noparse][[/noparse]fell[noparse]][/noparse] on Greenwood, and men begin to call it Mirkwood,” in the entry for III 1050. Then the next entry, ca. III 1100, says, “The Wise (the Istari and the chief Eldar) discover that an evil power has made a stronghold at Dol Guldur. It is thought to be one of the Nazgûl.” No doubt there was at least one Nazgûl there; I think they helped Sauron reshape himself, helped him get “back on his feet” and “kept an eye on things” for him until he could do it himself. Certainly the Necromancer was operating out of there most of the second half of the Third Age. (Does anyone know when the first appearance of “the Necromancer” was? In Tolkien’s subcreation chronology, that is…)

Now, the division of Arnor had taken place in III 861, according to the same section; and elsewhere (we’d have to find where), *Gordis* and I, _et alia_ (I think _et alia_ includes *Valandil*), had a rather lively discussion regarding whether or not the Nazgûl were involved in the initial breakup of Arnor, and to what degree they influenced the decline of the North Kingdom. 

In that discussion, I pointed out that Dol Guldur was well-positioned as a supply route to Gundabad, which I believe I recall fell to the Orcs around 1000 during the Third Age, though it must be in some other material than Appendix B. From there, the Witch-king was able to maneuver whatever he liked into Angmar from the east: so essentially, Dol Guldur operated as a base of activity within striking range of all Sauron’s enemies. Presumably, Sauron had access to Mordor through the great pass north and west of Khand, but at that point, Gondor still had fortifications not only all around western Mordor (the Towers of the Teeth, Minas Ithil, Cirith Ungol), but even within Mordor itself (Durthang – that must have been an unpleasant posting; I wonder if it fell first or later). 

So there are several reasons to position himself at Amon Lanc:


It put Sauron close to where the Ring was lost. He did not have to know exactly where; perhaps he could tell, but probably he learned indirectly from the Dúnedain or the Elves.
It put Sauron close to the scene of action, close to his enemies, “on the front,” as it were: a kind of Wolfsschanze (“Wolf's Lair”) for an evil dictator.
It provided the Witch-king with a secure route of supplies to overthrow the Dwarves in Gundabad
It provided the Witch-king with a secure route of supplies for Angmar in his quest to destroy the Northern Dúnedain. (I think the quest was initially to break up Arnor; then morphed into a quest to get a palantír; and finally became a war of annihilation, which very nearly succeeded. Hey, two out of three ain’t bad!)
It kept Sauron close to the Witch-king for support, information, and conspiracy.
His presence and that of the Nazgûl may have fired up the Balrog. (I think Tolkien wrote some reference to that. My mind is salted from mining, and my inclination to dig up references at spring ebb.)
His presence disrupted commerce and traffic through and around Greenwood, which must previously have been a pretty productive place. (Forests are a store of natural wealth, and the Old Forest Road was impassable by Bilbo’s day.)
He seems to have eventually driven Radagast out of Rhosgobel. (It is quite possible, even likely, that Radagast posted himself at Rhosgobel to mind the goings-on at Dol Guldur; in any case, it seems to have become too much for the Brown Wizard.)
It was indeed a starting point for attack. Dol Guldur was used to attack the forest realm of Thranduil, Lórien, and would certainly have been useful as command post to direct an attack against Rivendell, as Gandalf feared. As far as the simultaneous attacks on Thranduil and Lórien, Sauron’s commanders either failed to heed or never heard warnings about engaging a two-front war.
And finally, it provided Sauron a cozy residence off the beaten track with a great view and lovely surroundings in which to recuperate after his difficult encounter with Elendil, Gil-galad, and their retinue.

I’m sure I’ve left some things out. Contributions to this list are encouraged!

Now, will that horse say, _neigh, whinny, whinny_?


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## Úlairi (Dec 12, 2008)

Alcuin said:


> I don’t know if that horse is dead or not, *Ú*. Let’s see if it moves if we flog it together.



You know what? Hell yeah. I'm ecstatic that there's a thread that I can talk seriously in.



Alcuin said:


> I think the primary reason for building on Amon Lanc must have been to search for the One Ring. The Tale of Years says that “a shadow [noparse][[/noparse]fell[noparse]][/noparse] on Greenwood, and men begin to call it Mirkwood,” in the entry for III 1050. Then the next entry, ca. III 1100, says, “The Wise (the Istari and the chief Eldar) discover that an evil power has made a stronghold at Dol Guldur. It is thought to be one of the Nazgûl.” No doubt there was at least one Nazgûl there; I think they helped Sauron reshape himself, helped him get “back on his feet” and “kept an eye on things” for him until he could do it himself. Certainly the Necromancer was operating out of there most of the second half of the Third Age. (Does anyone know when the first appearance of “the Necromancer” was? In Tolkien’s subcreation chronology, that is…)



I'm in complete agreeance here. Very well compiled Alcuin. I'm unsure what you mean by "_subcreation_ chronology" however. The first reference is the one you've already mentioned from _The Tale of Years_. _Letters_ also elucidates that _The Necromancer_ was the shadow that descended upon Greenwood and thus places it at the same time as the above quote.



Alcuin said:


> Now, the division of Arnor had taken place in III 861, according to the same section; and elsewhere (we’d have to find where), *Gordis* and I, _et alia_ (I think _et alia_ includes *Valandil*), had a rather lively discussion regarding whether or not the Nazgûl were involved in the initial breakup of Arnor, and to what degree they influenced the decline of the North Kingdom.



It's quite easily inferrable from _The Tale of Years_ that the Nazgûl had an enormous impact on the destruction of Arnor. That is something I would never dispute. The degree of such impact obviously is a matter of discussion; but looking through TTOY I couldn't come to any conclusion but solely that they were (and especially the Witch-king) *very influential* in the Downfall of Arnor.



Alcuin said:


> In that discussion, I pointed out that Dol Guldur was well-positioned as a supply route to Gundabad, which I believe I recall fell to the Orcs around 1000 during the Third Age, though it must be in some other material than Appendix B. From there, the Witch-king was able to maneuver whatever he liked into Angmar from the east: so essentially, Dol Guldur operated as a base of activity within striking range of all Sauron’s enemies. Presumably, Sauron had access to Mordor through the great pass north and west of Khand, but at that point, Gondor still had fortifications not only all around western Mordor (the Towers of the Teeth, Minas Ithil, Cirith Ungol), but even within Mordor itself (Durthang – that must have been an unpleasant posting; I wonder if it fell first or later).



I went on a bit of a hunt and the only references to Mount Gundabad I can find are in _The Peoples of Middle-earth_ where the Orcs overran it in the Great War from 2793-2799 TA. There is a weird reference about the Orcs re-taking Mount Gundabad some centuries after 1695 SA further on; which implies it was taken before that. There is also a reference to an attack on Dwarves by Orcs _c_. 1300 TA in _The Tale of Years_. Whether this correlates to the taking of Mount Gundabad is a matter of discussion. I can't see why Men of Harad, Khand and the East could not have gone eastward around Mordor and then North-west into Mirkwood. I'd be interested if Tolkien had written anything of the lands around that area and whether they were passable. 



Alcuin said:


> So there are several reasons to position himself at Amon Lanc:
> 
> 
> It put Sauron close to where the Ring was lost. He did not have to know exactly where; perhaps he could tell, but probably he learned indirectly from the Dúnedain or the Elves.
> ...



In relation to point (3) I don't believe that the Witch-king had much to do with the overthrow of Mount Gundabad; as it isn't mentioned anywhere that he partook in it. However as a theory it is quite interesting. Point (5) intrigues me greatly; as I don't recall reading that anywhere. Do you know where it is? There is a reference to other evil things being _roused_ such as the Balrog after the Witch-king gathers the Eight and issues from Mordor in _The Peoples of Middle-earth_. They were _roused at the same time_. Whether this means this was due to the Nazgûl or not again is another matter of discussion. It is also important to note here that the Nazgûl at this point were in Mordor and not Dol Guldur (or Amon Lanc). As for driving Radagast out of Rhosgobel - another interesting theory also. I looked for any references to that possibility; but the search was fruitless save that Rhosgobel was (obviously) Radagast's old home. Considering the nature of Radagast (enamoured with Middle-earth _per se_); it's quite possible that Radagast was driven out by Sauron.

A couple that might be added is it's noted proximity to Erebor where (at this point) tales of the Dragon had surely reached Sauron and he may indeed have been contemplating the recruit of Smaug into his services; which Gandalf said would've been used to "_terrible effect_". He _*may*_ have even contemplated acquiring Durin's Bane into his service also. Another (more interesting concept) is that he may have been fleeing from the _Ithryn Luin_ who were assigned to find his hiding place in the East. They may have been successful in doing so; but had failed to capture him. 

Logistically and tactically Dol Guldur was a far more _central_ point of operations executable by Sauron than Mordor. I'll give this some more thought and see if there are any other benefits for Sauron in operating from Amon Lanc.


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## Bucky (Jan 20, 2009)

Alcuin said:


> I don’t know if that horse is dead or not, *Ú*. Let’s see if it moves if we flog it together.
> 
> I think the primary reason for building on Amon Lanc must have been to search for the One Ring. The Tale of Years says that “a shadow [noparse][[/noparse]fell[noparse]][/noparse] on Greenwood, and men begin to call it Mirkwood,” in the entry for III 1050. Then the next entry, ca. III 1100, says, “The Wise (the Istari and the chief Eldar) discover that an evil power has made a stronghold at Dol Guldur. It is thought to be one of the Nazgûl.” No doubt there was at least one Nazgûl there; I think they helped Sauron reshape himself, helped him get “back on his feet” and “kept an eye on things” for him until he could do it himself. Certainly the Necromancer was operating out of there most of the second half of the Third Age. (Does anyone know when the first appearance of “the Necromancer” was? In Tolkien’s subcreation chronology, that is…)
> 
> ...



*One final thought: Have those of you suggesting Moria considered that the Dwarves were there until 1981 & Sauron went to Dol Guldur in 1050?*


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