# The destruction of Númenor



## Arvedui (Apr 17, 2004)

Was it really nescesarry (sp?) to destroy Númenor?
Could it have been avoided?
Or maybe it was a part of a "Greater Plan," concidering what the Faithful (and later their Heir) accomplished against Sauron?

After all, most of those that had fallen went forth with the King in the quest against Valinor, so that when the fleet was drowned, they were gone, and the remaining Númenoreans knew indeed who was the most powerful "Gods" on Arda. All of the Faithful remained in ships by Númenor, and could have brought Númenor back to what it was intended to be. 

The way I see it, the Valar (and Eru) were simply not patient enough. They just decided that 'enough is enough - we will have no more of this.' And so they removed Valinor and the Lonely Isle from Arda itself, and bent Arda into a new shape, in the process destroying Númenor. As far as I can see, the destruction of Númenor was intentional, but why?


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## Confusticated (Apr 17, 2004)

Well, I suppose Numenor was still full of anti-Valar women at this point, and the Elendili were very few. However, if the faithful were enough to bring Numenor back to the goodness of its early years, would they not grow mighty and fall under shadow again? I think they would. The destruction of Pharazon's fleet would fall into legend and who knows how it might be twisted in time. Men would forget. Just as they had forgot or forsook the wisdom taught to them by Eonwe and the Eldar, They'd become greedy for more time again. The only difference the second time round is that there would probably be no Sauron, but in my opinion Sauron only hastened the inevitable in coaxing Numenor into an attack.

And then there is the matter of Eressea. Could it have stayed in the world with Men forever? Suppose it existed today? 

And as you have mentioned, those last faithful going to Middle-earth helped raise the race of Men a little, at least for a time.


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## Inderjit S (Apr 17, 2004)

I think it was necessary. The Númenóreans had become bellicose anti-Valarins. Not only that but they had blasphemed against Eru. They wouldn't have seen a defeat by the Valar as a good thing, but as a bad thing and future generations would have wanted revenge. This would have just caused more problems. They may have also fell further under the yoke of Sauron. What if he wanted a mass exodus to Middle-Earth? The Elves and the good men would have been doomed. Remember, the existence of Men didn't bother Sauron like it did Morgoth, he didn't want to exterminate them all, he wanted to rule over them. If the future generations of the Númenóreans worshipped Sauron, then he would have had a vats expanse of strength, with which he could impose his hegemony over Middle-Earth. Let's face it you are not going become an ardent supporter of the Valar if they just killed your fahter/husband/uncle etc. I am by no means a supporter of the Valar and their actions in arda, but I think this time they were right to do what they did, and even the infallible Eru agreed with them. 

As Tolkien says, despite the fact that the Numenoreans KNEW about how they were seduced by Morgoth in the early days and thus they were "mortalised" (as the Numenoreans tale goes) they then renew their Morgoth worship thousands of years later. As Nom says we cannot account for the actions of future generations of Men.


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## Arvedui (Apr 18, 2004)

Apart from the fact that it gave Tolkien a brilliant reason on how his Arda Flat became Arda Round, doesn't the destruction of Númenor infere with his concept of Free Will?

From Elendil's actions after getting to Middle-earth, it seems clear to me that if he could choose freely, he would have loved to remain in Númenor.

Perhaps a stupid thought, but nonetheless...


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## Confusticated (Apr 18, 2004)

I don't know... I mean what is free will? Surely a man's free will is not him being granted every opportunity to do anything he can imagine. Most things are beyond a man's control, but his will is his own.


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## Walter (Apr 18, 2004)

Was it necessary to destroy Atlantis? Could it have been avoided?

The problem, as it occurred to Tolkien, was the other way round. _Atalantë_ was drowned, what he had to come up with, was a plausible explanation for this.

What should he make of these strange fragments he had conceived?


```
I
(A)
[i] O   sauron   túle   nukumna   ...   lantaner   turkildi[/i]
and    ?      came   humbled   ...     fell        ?

[i] nuhuinenna    ...  tar-kalion    ohtakáre    valannar   ...[/i]
under shadow   ...      ?         war made    on Powers  ...

[i] númeheruvi    arda    sakkante   lenéme        ilúvataren[/i]
Lords-of-West  Earth    rent     with leave of      ?

[i]ëari    ullier     ikilyanna   ...  númenóre    ataltane[/i]
seas should flow  into chasm   ...  Numenor    fell down

(B)
[i] Kadō  zigūrun  zabathān  unakkha   ...   ēruhīnim[/i]
and so    ?     humbled   he-came   ...     ?

[i]dubdam  ugru-dalad   ...  ar-pharazōnun   azaggara[/i]
fell   ?shadow under ...      ?         was warring

[i]  avalōiyada    ...  bārim   an-adūn  yurahtam  dāira[/i]
against Powers  ...  Lords   of-West    broke   Earth

[i]sāibēth-mā   ēruvō  ...  azrīya   du-phursā     akhāsada[/i]
assent-with ?-from  ...   seas  so-as-to-gush  into chasm

[i]...  anadūnē   zīrān     hikallaba    ...   bawība  dulgī[/i]
...  Numenor  beloved  she-fell down  ...   winds   black

[i]... balīk   hazad   an-nimruzīr   azūlada[/i]
... ships   seven      of ?       eastward

II
(B)
[i]Agannālō       burōda  nēnud  ...   zāira         nēnud[/i]
Death-shadow   heavy   on-us  ...  longing (is)   on-us

[i]... adūn   izindi   batān  tāidō   ayadda:  īdō[/i]
... west  straight  road   once     went    now

[i]kātha  batīna   lōkhī[/i]
 all   roads   crooked

(A)
[i]Vahaiya     sín        Andóre[/i]
far away  now (is)  Land of Gift

(B)
[i]Ēphalak     īdōn       Yōzāyan[/i]
far away  now (is)  Land of Gift

(B)
[i]Ēphal   ēphalak   īdōn          hi-Akallabēth[/i]
 far   far away  now (is)   She-that-hath-fallen

(A)
[i]Haiya  vahaiya      sín        atalante.[/i]
 far  far away   now (is)   the Downfallen.
```


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## Inderjit S (Apr 18, 2004)

Is that extract from the 'Notion Club' papers in hoME 9?


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## Walter (Apr 18, 2004)

[Quote =Inderjit]Is that extract from the 'Notion Club' papers in hoME 9?[/quote]

Xacully!


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## Confusticated (Apr 18, 2004)

I guess you were kidding, but do you believe there is a bit of truth in it? Was Tolkien writing about his own experiences with Lowdham?


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## Walter (Apr 18, 2004)

No, I wasn't "kidding" at all. I used a bit of "creative cheating", but only to throw in a few more aspects.

Regarding your question, Nóm: Yes, I think there might be some truth in it. We find that motif in the Lost Road as well as in the Notion Club papers, both accounts sound rather "realistic" and in a way "autobiographic" to some degree IMO. Also Tolkien alludes to such situations in a few letters. But of course that's mere speculation on my part....


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## Lantarion (Apr 18, 2004)

Hehe this thread is leaning more to the HoME then the Sil, maybe I should move it..  

Hm, but I think that in the end it isn't as important a question whether it was really necessary for Númenor to be destroyed, as what symbolic significance does that fact carry?
We could debate about whether Elanna could or couldn't have been spared after Pharazôn's idiotic pride and Sauron's wiles; it would be interesting to speculate about the condition of the isle if it had indeed been spared. On a pragmatic level, the 'rebuilding' of the good empire that Númenor once was would have seemed an impossible task, and even then the 'Kings Men' would still have some small cult or other that would gnaw at the foundations of this new Númenor. 
But I think that the very fact that the handful of men who did escape the wreck and decadence of that place were all representatives of the Old ways, the ways of honour and kindness and flourishing, is such a strong symbolic statement that the tragic destruction of Númenor does indeed seem necessary. And the deeds of the latter kings in cooperation with Sauron acts also as a symbol of what the race of Men is indeed capable of, what acts and deeds of malice, when incited into wrath and madness.


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## Arvedui (Apr 19, 2004)

Lantarion said:


> Hehe this thread is leaning more to the HoME then the Sil, maybe I should move it..


Psst.... don't tell anyone, but I was actually reading "The Lost Road" when this thought struck me...


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## Inderjit S (Apr 19, 2004)

> Apart from the fact that it gave Tolkien a brilliant reason on how his Arda Flat became Arda Round, doesn't the destruction of Númenor infere with his concept of Free Will?



Free will? Do you think it really existed in Arda...  

And do you think Arda actually existed? Well, it is possible....

And should this stay in the Silmarillion section....yes.

Elendil and his ships were stationed to leave anyway, first of all Amandil told him to remove to Romenna and reside on the ships there and Elendil had to board his ships to avoid Sauron's soldiers (because he refused to march against the Valar) and also because of the stealing of the fruit from the white tree. Sauron knew it was one of the faithful. So they were just given an helping 'hand' or 'wind' rather, by Eru.


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## Arvedui (Apr 19, 2004)

Inderjit S said:


> Free will? Do you think it really existed in Arda...


You are tempting me here, but: no, not really.



Inderjit S said:


> And do you think Arda actually existed? Well, it is possible....


Not existed: Exists. 



Inderjit S said:


> And should this stay in the Silmarillion section....yes.
> 
> Elendil and his ships were stationed to leave anyway, first of all Amandil told him to remove to Romenna and reside on the ships there and Elendil had to board his ships to avoid Sauron's soldiers (because he refused to march against the Valar) and also because of the stealing of the fruit from the white tree. Sauron knew it was one of the faithful. So they were just given an helping 'hand' or 'wind' rather, by Eru.


Complete agree with your last sentence there, and that is also the main reason as to why I put in the "Greater Plan" question. Maybe that Great Plan did not include the fierce resistance against Sauron, but I think that Eru meant for the Faithful to establish themselves in Middle-earth.

(Another possible topic here: was Eru dissatisfied with the decision to remove all of the faithful to Númenor, thus giving Sauron a free hand in Middle-earth?)

And I don't think that you need to be a rocket-scientist to see that those Faithful would fight fiercely against the power that destroyed their beloved homeland.


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## Walter (Apr 19, 2004)

"Fate vs. Free Will" ... we had the topic a few times already, maybe we should open a new thread? 

Arda - as well as Middle-earth - of course exists, on its own sub-creational level as well as an independent reality since Tolkien equalled it with our world (c.f. e.g. Letters #211) . Of course it's arguable whether Arda now just refers to our planet Earth or the entire Solar system, but that's a different issue on a different plane...


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## Inderjit S (Apr 19, 2004)

> This plea Manwë accepted, and one voice alone spoke aloud the doubt that was in the hearts of all the Valar. Mandos said: 'Nonetheless they are descendants of Men, who rejected the One himself. That is an evil seed that may grow again. For even if we under Eru have the power to return to Middle-earth and cast out Morgoth from the Kingdom of Arda, we cannot destroy all the evil that he has sown, nor seek out all his servants - unless we ravaged the whole of the Kingdom and made an end of all life therein; and that we may not do.'


 'Problem of Ros; HoME 12'

What do you make of Namo's quote. Esp. the 'Nonetheless they are descendants of Men, who rejected the One himself. That is an evil seed that may grow again" part.


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