# Who/What is Gandalf really?



## Arda (Mar 27, 2004)

I have now read The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, The Simillarion, and although I'm not finished with the unfinished tales of Numenor and Middle-Earth I did read the part concering wizards and it's still a little hazy. The closest I can come to understanding from what is said in The Unfinished Tales he is what is explained as a mirar under Manwe and Varda. Is that the closest I'm going to get to fully understanding who/what/and where he came from? Someone help me out here.


----------



## Ithrynluin (Mar 28, 2004)

Gandalf is a Maia, but it is uncertain whether of the 'people' of Manwë or of those of Irmo Lórien (evidence points both ways). He also goes by the names Mithrandir (for the Elves), Olórin (in the Undying Lands in the West) and many more.

[Arda]Gandalf[/Arda]


----------



## Lantarion (Mar 28, 2004)

Nice description Ithryn. 
I like to think that Gandalf was mostly of Irmo's 'people', althuogh I also think that Gandalf, like he was in Middle-earth, was a roamer and a traveler, not fixed to any certain class. 
The reason I think he's of Lórien's folk is his name; _Olórin_ contains the root _olo-_, which has to do with 'dreams, visions'. The full description of that name can be found in UT.


----------



## Iluisa Olórin (Mar 28, 2004)

Gandalf is _Manwëva ar Vardava Maia_: a Maia of Manwë and Varda. He bore Narya, the Ring of Fire.

Regarding Lantarion's association of Gandalf with Lórien: Olórë Mallë was the Path (of Dreams) created by Lórien, at the bidding of Manwë, through which humans newly-awakened into the world came to Valinor in their childhood sleep.


Nai Manwë varyauvallë nu i Eru!


----------



## Ithrynluin (Mar 29, 2004)

Iluisa Olórin said:


> Gandalf is _Manwëva ar Vardava Maia_: a Maia of Manwë and Varda.


This shouldn't be presented as fact, because it is not. Like I said, there's hefty evidence pointing both ways.


----------



## Iluisa Olórin (Mar 29, 2004)

Examples, please...


----------



## Ithrynluin (Mar 29, 2004)

Olórin as a Maia of Manwë (and Varda):



> _Unfinished Tales, The Istari_
> ...On another page of jottings clearly belonging to the same period it is said that "Curumo was obliged to take Aiwendil to please Yavanna wife of Aulë." There are here also some rough tables relating the names of the Istari to the names of the Valar: _*Olórin to Manwë and Varda*_, Curumo to Aulë, Aiwendil to Yavanna, Alatar to Oromë, and Pallando also to Oromë (but this replaces Pallando to Mandos and Nienna).


All of the other Istari belong to the people of their respective Valar, that is quite obvious. If Yavanna wanted Radagast to go, Aulë chose Saruman, and Oromë Alatar and Palando, why should we doubt that Manwë and Varda chose someone from their own 'people'? Right?



> _The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien #200_
> Olórin (Vol II p. 279) had been attached to Manwë.


This quote also puts Gandalf's name next to Manwë, though it uses Unfinished Tales to fall back on.

Olórin as a Maia of Lórien 

The names Olofantur (a name of Irmo) and Olórin (Gandalf's name in Aman) bear a striking resemblance, both containing the element _'olo(r)' _- meaning dream.

Now compare the descriptions of Irmo Lórien:



> Irmo the younger is the master of *visions and dreams.*


And of Olórin Gandalf:



> For though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the _*fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts*_.


The similarity of their natures is hard to ignore.

And finally we have: 



> _HoME X: Morgoth's Ring_
> And wise was Olorin, _*counsellor of Irmo*_: secret enemy of the secret evils of Melkor, for his bright visions drove away the imaginations of darkness.


Which is why nothing can be said with certainty, since both seem quite possible. Though I myself lean a little more to the Lórien side...


----------



## Iluisa Olórin (Mar 29, 2004)

From these citations, the statement as fact of Gandalf being of Manwë and Varda is more compelling than the similarities in names and his being referred to as the _counsellor of Irmo_; this doesn't necessarily imply that he was counselling in his capacity as Irmo's Maia.


----------



## Ithrynluin (Mar 29, 2004)

I don't find it more compelling at all. It is said the names of the Istari relating to the names of the Valar are only rough tables, and Tolkien never confirms it. As for Irmo/Olórin, the similarities are obvious and it would be much more likely for a counselor of Irmo to be of Irmo's people than someone else's IMO.


----------



## Finrod-Felagund (Mar 29, 2004)

Well actually _it is_ said in The Silmarillion that Gandalf lived in The Forest of Lorien...

I too think that Lorin is a maia of Irmo. Maybe I just think that it would be a little to obvious that Olorin was the "good guy" because he was one of Manwës maias.

By the way.. Isn't strange that both Sauman and Sauron (maias of Aulë) turned to the evil??

Just a thought...


----------



## Ithrynluin (Mar 29, 2004)

Well met, Finrod-Felagund.

Gandalf's dwelling in Lórien can't be taken as any proof either, as Melian dwelt there too, and she is a Maia of Yavanna (as per _Morgoth's Ring_). Interestingly enough, her being a Maia of Yavanna wasn't mentioned in the Sil, it is only said she served Vána and Estë. Therefore, we can see how dealing with clues to classifying Maiar to their Ainur is a tricky business.

As for the Saruman and Sauron business, check out this thread.


----------



## Iluisa Olórin (Mar 29, 2004)

ithrynluin said:


> I don't find it more compelling at all. It is said the names of the Istari relating to the names of the Valar are only rough tables, and Tolkien never confirms it. As for Irmo/Olórin, the similarities are obvious and it would be much more likely for a counselor of Irmo to be of Irmo's people than someone else's IMO.



How else could Tolkien have confirmed it than to have constructed the tables, however rough?

It is worth comparing Gandalf's being the victorious of the Istari with Manwë's being the mightiest of the Ainur. In that respect, it seems feasible that Olórin, referred to as "wisest of the Maiar," would have provided counsel outside his own circle, being arguably most in tune with Manwë's thought who, in turn, was so with that of Ilúvatar.




Finrod-Felagund said:


> Well actually it is said in The Silmarillion that Gandalf lived in The Forest of Lorien...



That he dwelt in Lórien I see as a preference, for whatever reason; not an indication that he did so because he was bound to Irmo. Perhaps Manwë desired to influence Irmo through Olórin?


----------



## Ithrynluin (Mar 29, 2004)

> It is worth comparing Gandalf's being the victorious of the Istari with Manwë's being the mightiest of the Ainur.


I don't see much of a connection there. It's like saying "It's worth comparing Sauron's strength in sorcery to Tulkas' strength in arms'.



> it seems feasible that Olórin, referred to as "wisest of the Maiar," would have provided counsel outside his own circle, being arguably most in tune with Manwë's thought who, in turn, was so with that of Ilúvatar.


It seems feasible indeed, just as his being of the people of Irmo seems perfectly feasible.

You're putting just as much of your own views and preferences into this as everyone else is. You curb the textual evidence so that it fits what you believe. That's fine, we all do that. The important thing though is to try and stay as objective as possible, and not draw any unwarranted conclusions.


----------



## Iluisa Olórin (Mar 29, 2004)

ithrynluin said:


> I don't see much of a connection there. It's like saying "It's worth comparing Sauron's strength in sorcery to Tulkas' strength in arms'.



The comparison has been lost on you. That the notion of Gandalf as "wisest of the Maiar" was proved through his victory lends considerable weight to his being chosen by Manwë because he was of his people.




ithrynluin said:


> It seems feasible indeed, just as his being of the people of Irmo seems perfectly feasible.



Again, the evidence - and not mere opinion - just isn't there.




ithrynluin said:


> You curb the textual evidence so that it fits what you believe. That's fine, we all do that. The important thing though is to try and stay as objective as possible, and not draw any unwarranted conclusions.



Let's not mince words  It is easier to draw "unwarranted conclusions" by interpreting the meaning of the content than by looking at what is plainly stated.


----------



## Ithrynluin (Mar 29, 2004)

What is plainly stated is what I quoted in my post above. Drawing unwarranted conclusions would be saying Olórin is definitely either a Maia of Manwë or of Irmo. I have not done that. You see mere opinion for the Olórin/Lórien case, yet you repeatedly find 'worthy comparisons' and cut out proof for the opposite.

This 'argument' is getting very trite. This will be my last reply to you.


----------



## Walter (Mar 30, 2004)

Now that the scholars have settled their dispute (or maybe they haven't, but anyway) I'd like to add my two-pence worth:

Who or what is Gandalf? This is an interesting question and even more so when we look beyond the boundaries of Middle-Earth.

Gandalf - like Galadriel - was a later addition to "Tolkien's Legendarium", his name - like most of the names for the Dwarves in _The Hobbit_ - is "borrowed" from the _Volospá_, part of the _Codex Regius_ (these poems are better known as _Poetic Edda_): gand-âlfr, which Tolkien interpreted as "Elf with a wand" or - in The Hobbit - as a "mere" Wizard. And in some ways Gandalf - as a character - there still resembles the "Man-in-the-Moon" from Roverandom. Humphrey Carpenter, in his TolkienBiography, mentions that in the manuscript of The Hobbit, Gandalf was the name of the chief dwarf, whereas Bladorthin was the name of the wizard. 

Another inspiration for the character of Gandalf seems to have been a painting called "Der Berggeist" by Joseph Madlener from the second half of the 1920s, which can be seen at the Houghton Mifflin website.

So, what we encounter with Gandalf is a very interesting "metamorphosis", from a dwarf (dwarfs in Germanic/Nordic Mythology, btw., are said to have originally been maggots in the flesh of Ymir, a primeval giant) to a "magic Elf" and a Wizard and finally an angelic messenger of the Gods/Powers, whose re-incarnated self eventually saves Middle-earth from falling under the shadow of Evil...

(c.f. http://www.thetolkienwiki.org/wiki.cgi?Gandalf)


----------



## Ithrynluin (Mar 30, 2004)

Durnit Walt, and I thought you were going to add something to the whole Olórin/Irmo/Manwë kettle of fish.  

I notice the Wiki skillfully avoids this issue.


----------



## Walter (Mar 30, 2004)

ithrynluin said:


> Durnit Walt, and I thought you were going to add something to the whole Olórin/Irmo/Manwë kettle of fish.
> 
> I notice the Wiki skillfully avoids this issue.


In your post above you have said pretty much everything that can/should be said about this issue from a factual/neutral point of view except, maybe, that the passage from the LQ1 in HoMeX is somewhat older than the jotting belonging to the Istari essay in UT and that the passage regarding Olórin being counsellor of Irmo has been omitted in the LQ2. 

That said I need to mention that I don't see why this dispute would require an "either - or" answer...

P.S: Why don't you add this issue to the Wiki page, you'd certainly be most welcome to do so...


----------



## Ireth Telrúnya (Mar 30, 2004)

Interesting thread. I have been looking for Gandalf's origin since I'm reading Silmarillion right now. So this Oloorin is Gandalf and if he's a Maia, it's only natural that he lives in Loorien/Lórien that is the most Aman-like place in the Middle-Earth inflicted with Melkor's servant Sauron. 
The description of Olórin says that first he walked invisible among the Elves and sometimes as one of them. And later befriended all the children of Iluuvatar, and awoke them from the darkness as Gandalf truly did.

I'm not so sure whether Frodo or Bilbo knew Gandalf was a Maia. Aragorn surely did,
yet he was grieved when Gandalf "fell into shadows" with the Balrog..he couldn't possibly die if he truly was a Maia? Aragorn should have known he'll return...


----------



## Ithrynluin (Mar 31, 2004)

> Aragorn should have known he'll return...


He can't have known the greater, or whole, scheme of things. After all, he was merely 'human', however great his heritage.



> So this Oloorin is Gandalf and if he's a Maia, it's only natural that he lives in Loorien/Lórien that is the most Aman-like place in the Middle-Earth inflicted with Melkor's servant Sauron.


This "Lórien" here refers to the gardens of the Vala Irmo (who is also known as Lórien as per his place of dwelling), it does not refer to Lórien in Middle-Earth.


----------



## Ireth Telrúnya (Apr 1, 2004)

Okay. I have a book "A Tolkien Bestiary" and there's this map I've been looking every once in a while. I forgot there's also Lórien in Aman.
So, Gandalf didn't have a dwelling in Middle-Earth?


----------



## Ardamir the Blessed (Apr 5, 2004)

UT, 'The Istari':


> Mithrandir was closest in friendship with the Eldar, and wandered mostly in the West, and *never made for himself any lasting abode*.


----------

