# Rules for Riddles



## baragund (Jun 28, 2004)

In "Riddles in the Dark", there is a description of riddles games being played by "ancient rules" and that not even a wicked creature like Gollum would dare break them. This is right after Bilbo wins the game with his famous "What have I got in my pocket?" question/riddle.

Is there any background on where these rules came from and who set them? It seems to me this would be a big deal if Bilbo had confidence that even bad guys would follow them. 

Also, does anybody find it a little ironic that such emphasis was placed on these ancient rules when it can be argued that Bilbo did not follow those rules with his final question/riddle?


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## Inderjit S (Jun 28, 2004)

I excpect these "ancient" riddle-rules were "ancient" Hobbit rules on riddles-how old they were is another question-possibly ranging from 300-2,000 years, a number which the Hobbits would regard as ancient. 

And with regards to Bilbo's cheating-he was in quite a tight spot.


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## greypilgrim (Jun 28, 2004)

Yeah Bilbo totally cheated!!!


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## GuardianRanger (Jun 28, 2004)

Two notes in _The Annotated Hobbit_ address this very issue. (Note number in parentheses) They are:

(26)


> The riddling tradition is attested to the Anglo-Saxon times by the apppearance of nearly one hundred Anglo-Saxon riddles in The Exeter Book, one of the four great surviving collections of Anglo-Saxon poetry. It was compiled by Leofric, the bishop of Exeter, sometime before hisdeath in 1072. Tolkien's riddles are generally much shorter than those in the Exeter book, and many of them rhyme, while the Exeter riddles do not.



Note 26 follows the text:


> He knew, of course, that the riddle-game was sacred and of immense antiquity,



(27)


> The two greatest riddle contests in Old Norse literature both end on the same sort of questionable nonriddle. In the "Vafthrudismal" (The Lay of Vafthrudnir) in teh Elder Edda, when Odin hears of the great wisdom of the giant Vafthrudnir, he resolves to match his own lore against the giant's. Disguised, he wins the contest by asking the question, "What did Odin whisper in the ear of his son, before Baldur was carried to the pyre?" Only Odin could know the answer and thus his identiy was revealed. In The Saga of King Heidrek the Wise, another riddle contest involves Odin in disguise, and the contest ends the same way.
> In the prologue to The Lord Of The Rings (Section 4, "Of the Finding Of The Rings"), Tolkien commented, "The Authorities, it is true, differ whether this last question was a mere 'question' and not a 'riddle' according to the strict rules of the Game; but all agree that, after accepting it and trying to guess the answer, Gollum was bound by his promise."



Note 27 follows the text:


> And after all that last question had not been a genuine riddle according to the ancient laws.


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## greypilgrim (Jun 28, 2004)

Oh...so that's the answer.


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## Inderjit S (Jun 29, 2004)

'The Hobbit' is of course heavily influenced by "old norse" mythology-most of the names (Gandalf, the Dwarves names etc.) are "old norse". The explanation from the 'Annotated Hobbit' is of course a history of the riddle game in our world-not Middle-Earth. 



> The Authorities, it is true, differ whether this last question was a mere 'question' and not a 'riddle' according to the strict rules of the Game; but all agree that, after accepting it and trying to guess the answer, Gollum was bound by his promise."



Since, apart from Gandalf, Merry and Frodo, no-body knew of the existence of Bilbo's book until after the WoTR it would be interesting to find out who the rather ambigiously titled "authorities" actually are.


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## greypilgrim (Jun 29, 2004)

Hobbits! They would have to be.


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## Inderjit S (Jun 29, 2004)

But they may have also picked the idea off some men. Hobbits, at one time or another, lived with or close by to the Northmen (ancestors of the Rohirrim) and some of them lived close to or with the Dunlendings. There were also various mannish tribes in Eriador who they may have interacted with-and don't forget that some were in contact with Elves and Dwarves.


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## baragund (Jun 29, 2004)

Thanks guys for the feedback!  The connection to Norse mythology is really interesting but I have some follow-up questions and observations based on the mythology of M-E.

So Inder, would these "ancient rules" of riddles be a product of purely Hobbit culture or would they have been equally honored by all the peoples of M-E? What I find interesting is that Gollum would feel compelled to honor those rules as well as Bilbo. If the rules were a purely Hobbit tradition, they could have been established before the Shire Hobbbits started their migration from the vales of Anduin. But they could also just as easily be rules that all peoples would be bound to honor.

On the other hand, there is a LOT of emphasis throughout the entire mythology on the honoring oaths and promises and keeping one's word. Certainly much more than what our real world society does.  Perhaps the rules is just an outgrowth of that philosophy?

Still, neither Bilbo or Gollum strictly honored the rules. Bilbo asked a bogus question and Gollum reneged on his promise to show Bilbo the way out if he lost.


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## Inderjit S (Jun 29, 2004)

> So Inder, would these "ancient rules" of riddles be a product of purely Hobbit culture or would they have been equally honored by all the peoples of M-E?



I wonder. Riddles may have been a form of amusement for a lot of the people of Middle-Earth-Elves included. The Elves usually invented most things, so they could have been a simple Elvis game, which developed and spread across Middle-Earth (and Aman?) and eventually, the Hobbits picked it up-maybe from the Northmen, or another group of Men-both Gollum and Bilbo _are_ familiar with the concept of riddles, as well as rules. Though it may have been Hobbit invention-childish, simple and fun-all hallmarks of Hobbits.


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