# Elessar as the King returned?- seems Christian.



## Diabless (Apr 15, 2002)

Dear everyone,
My friend said this was a little sacreligious. If you think it is, I meant not offense.

I am not Christian but I know that Tolkien was and I've heard he had Christian morals and symbolism in LOTR.

I was just wondering if Aragorn as the King returned and a healer symbolizes Jesus or maybe Tolkien got the idea from Jesus. Because I know at least Catholics belive that Jesus will return (I go to a Catholic school) and I also know that he was healer. Well, Aragorn also was the King returned and his healing powers were out of the ordinary as is shown in ROTK in the chapter, The Houses of Healing. 
Do I hit the nail on the head or do I miss the mark?

P.S. Once again, pleeeeeese, no one be offended. I am curious if my interpretation skills have improved.


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## Nicholas Blake (Apr 15, 2002)

Well, obviously, you have heard the EXACT opposite of the truth. Tolkein meant in NO WAY to have religious symbolism in LOTR, or any of his other works for that matter.


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## Diabless (Apr 16, 2002)

Welll, Thank you for being blunt. Now I dont have to worry about reading literature I love but that has a religious take on it which is not my relgion. But he was devout Christian, right> That I've heard.


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## Turgon (Apr 16, 2002)

Tolkien _was_ a devout Catholic, so I'm sure his religion did come through in his writings to some degree - even if it only affected it from a moral perspective - after all, when an artist creates something, he puts something of himself into the thing which he creates. I've read letters of Tolkien's in which he discusses Christianity and LOTR in depth. I'm not saying that LOTR _is_ symbolic of Xtianity, but I think it would be wrong to dismiss it out of hand. In the story we read about sacrifice, redemption, mercy, compassion - the supreme power of love. All Christian virtues. So 'Hoom, hmm! Come now! Not so hasty!'.


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## Arwen Halfelven (Apr 16, 2002)

*Is that you, Turgon?*

Greetings, Turgon! This is Tamurile/Arwen here. Is this the one & the same Turgon from the Tolkien list I used to read? I've missed that list somewhat & especially your posts. I've been computer-less for weeks & I finally had access here. 
There is a lot of Christian symbolism in Tolkien's works. I've finished The Sil finally & I could see much in it too. I suppose we all see what we wish in anything since we look thru our own eyes. That's one of the marks of a quality piece of literature: when you can feel like you are a part of it & it becomes a part of you. That's the way I feel about LotR & Tolkien's other works.

Namarie
"Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!"


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## Turgon (Apr 16, 2002)

Alas Arwen, I think you have me confused with another Turgon, (another Turgon? It can't be!), as this is the only forum I've ever frequented and I've never heard of the Tolkien List...



> I suppose we all see what we wish in anything since we look thru our own eyes. That's one of the marks of a quality piece of literature: when you can feel like you are a part of it & it becomes a part of you. That's the way I feel about LotR & Tolkien's other works.



Anyway...Beautifully put, I agree with you whole-heartedly.
Mae govannen! I look forward to hearing from you again.


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## Arwen Halfelven (Apr 16, 2002)

*Your pardon requested!*

Sorry I mistook you for another. You are the one & only Turgon! Thank you for the nice reply! 
I believe that when one is spiritual, it affects all that you say, see, & do. The changes in my life that took place as a result of my relationship w/my Creator affect the way I perceive & interpret life in general, including literature. Tolkien is not the Bible, but there is a lot of depth, moral truth & spiritual undertones in all of his work whether intentional or not. I believe even he stated that his faith was a part of his work, but he was not writing an allegory of his faith. I'm getting too sleepy now, so I'll check the posts tomorrow. Hopefully I can come here more often, but for now, I must go to sleep to prepare for another day. 
Isil, eleni...

Namarie!
"Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!"


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## Gil-Galad (Apr 16, 2002)

Tolkien was really very religious and there are many facts in his books which would have something in common with religion,like the idea that:
Morgoth=Satan
Eru=God
Elves=Jewish people ...etc.
but I don't think Arogorn has something in common with Jesus.They're completely different as person ,character,behaviuor...etc. ...


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## Ancalagon (Apr 16, 2002)

I would stongly recommend reading this thread http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1250 from start to finish as I can be fairly certain it is one of the most controversial and explosive threads on the forum. Excellent.


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## pohuist (Apr 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ancalagon _
> *I would stongly recommend reading this thread http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1250 from start to finish as I can be fairly certain it is one of the most controversial and explosive threads on the forum. Excellent. *



Ancalagon, thanks for the excellent link. Probably the most thorough among similar discussions I've seen around. The only thing seemed strange to me is why you and ReadWryt have tried so hard to explain things to people who seem to not understand/completely disregard any rational arguments and use recursive ones as in << God exists. Why? the Bible says so. Who wrote/caused the Bible to be written? God did >>


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## Diabless (Apr 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Gil-Galad _
> *Tolkien was really very religious and there are many facts in his books which would have something in common with religion,like the idea that:
> Morgoth=Satan
> Eru=God
> ...



Well Gil-galad, that makes me an elf, but I disagree. The Elves, Men ect... all worship the same god so I don't think Elves represent the Jews. Though I have not read the Sil, I don't think Morgoth represents Satan either. He represents, as does Sauron, the Evil part of the battle between Good and Evil which is a part of the Catholic faith I guess, but It is a concept in all relgions, though it may not be personified. Went off on a tangent! Sorry But then again it is my thread!


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## Ancalagon (Apr 17, 2002)

> The only thing seemed strange to me is why you and ReadWryt have tried so hard to explain things to people who seem to not understand/completely disregard any rational arguments and use recursive ones as in << God exists. Why? the Bible says so. Who wrote/caused the Bible to be written? God did >>



To be honest, no matter how much you try to argue a point to people who have blinkered vision and inflexible attitudes, it seems you would have more success pushing water uphill using your hands.


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## HLGStrider (Apr 17, 2002)

I don't think Tolkien would put in a Jesus character who doesn't go through a sacrificial death, and Aragorn doesn't. 

Though I believe that there are Christian Morals in Tolkien, I don't believe there was any intentional allegory, because Tolkien really didn't like allegories.

I've always fallen on the sense of design and right and wrong in the universe as a proof of God... Most people believe in God, I believe... at least in surveys...


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## Goro Shimura (Apr 19, 2002)

As a Christian, Tolkiens notion of heroism is at odds, say, with what we find in pre-Christian myth, legend, and stories.

Sure... the "older view" is there in his tales: most notably in Bard and Thorin... but when we get into the LotR, Tolkien is stiving to take the notion of heroism to another level. 

Each of the three major heroes of LotR are "types" of Christ. (Types are not allegories, but rather a form of foreshadowing-- as in the story of Joseph in the Old Testament.)

Frodo is a type of the suffering Christ, who bore our sins.

Gandalf is a type of the resurrected Christ.

Aragorn is a type of Christ the King who will return.

See this link for more:
http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3479


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## Ice Man (Apr 19, 2002)

Tolkien was Christian, and Christianism did have influence in his writings, even if he did not intend to write anything with religious contents.

I don't remember where I saw it, but Tolkien himself once said that it was impossible for him, or anyone else in this world, to get away from his background and write totally neutral stories. So all his life experience, incluing his religious formation and including his experiences with World War One, would affect and appear in his writing, even if he did not intende it to.


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## Dhôn-Buri-Dhôn (Apr 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> *I've always fallen on the sense of design and right and wrong in the universe as a proof of God... Most people believe in God, I believe... at least in surveys... *


I'm afraid I have to disagree with the first two parts of this statement, Elgee.

I don't see any evidence for a personal god in the natural universe, which is morally neutral at best. What is the morality of a cosmos where a planet like ours could be sterilized by a randomly-occurring supernova hundreds of light-years away? Or in the behavior of a wasp that lays its eggs inside the body of a paralyzed grub, so that the hatchlings can eat it alive? It can be very dangerous to draw moral lessons from observations of nature. I don't know if you accept Darwin's idea of evolution by natural selection, but remember - that theory arose from just such observations of nature.

While it may be true that a lot of people answer survey questions about their god beliefs positively (at least in the USA), a lot depends on how the question is asked. Many of those people may be envisioning something quite different from you when they say they believe in God. Consider the fact that some people's beliefs allow them to fly airplanes full of people into skyscrapers in the name of their god... I'm sure that's not something you'd do in the name of yours. Yet their beliefs are at least as deeply-held as yours.

Besides, just because a lot of people think something is true doesn't make it so. Nobody gets to vote on the value of pi, or the speed of light. Or on whether there's a god. If they did, then back in Athenian times, Zeus actually existed... just ask anybody in the Acropolis!

Now, as to my opinion on the original topic: No way. Aragorn isn't even close to a Jesus figure. If any LotR character is one, it's Gandalf... but aside from his death and resurrection, he's not very close either.

However, Aragorn does hearken back to another mythical character: the legendary King Arthur. Anyone care to consider the Arthur-Aragorn parallels?


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## HLGStrider (Apr 20, 2002)

Last time I started arguing about religion I almost got in trouble... not with moderators, but with a bunch of people who were all trying to convert me to something or other.
Don't believe in Evolution by the way (What that delightful argument agains my old friend Harad was about)... believe the earth is winding down and getting worse because it rejected God during Adam's time... 
Well, I wasn't arguing about whether belief in God always leads to good things or not, and I don't know how the surveys were phrased, and I probably should've said in people, not in the universe... I was reading Mere Christianity, by CS Lewis, and he used that arguement and it made a whole lot of sense... and I use and too much... and and and... where was I?

There are a lot of Arthurian paralells, but I don't think Tolkien wanted to use them. He was searching pre-Arthurian, I believe... 

I think the idea of a king in exile is deeply rooted in the hearts of all fantasy. I know I've used it more than once in my writing. It strikes a cord in the hearts of people, the idea of a king or any man struggling to the highest spot, especially if he has been cast down from it. It's the basic heroism story.


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## Goro Shimura (Apr 20, 2002)

It seems we've hit upon a key theme that Aragorn and the Christ share.

Aragorn was THE King. And yet the people of Bree treated him rather poorly-- while in Gondor and Rohan, He is held in High esteem.

It's almost reminiscent of *"A prophet is not without honor, but in his own country...."*



So Aragorn was THE King as Christ was THE King... But how do you know the king is really THE king??

Lineage is pretty key... and it's not just happenstance that some of the Gospel of Matthew begins by establishing Jesus's lineage from Adam to Abraham to David to Joseph. Aragorn was pretty vocal about his descendence from Isildur....

But okay... maybe that's not a big point. It's just the way Kingships work, right?

But how did Jesus say you could recognize _THE_ King?

*"...the works that I do in my Father's in my Father's name, they bear witness of me..." *(John 10:25)

and

*"...though you believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe..."* (John 10:38)

Aragorn was not accepted as king just because he showed up with a few heirlooms and a fancy title: he was accepted because of the _sign_ that included, not only the defeat of the enemy that occured at his arrival... but also because of the healing of Faramir and Eowyn-- a sign that was _predicted in a prophecy concerning the Return of the King!!_

The above notions make it difficult not to think of Christ, especially they're when combined with the blatant "Old King James" sound of the _Psalm of the Eagle_. Of course, if you "have blinkered vision and inflexible attitudes" you may not notice such things!!


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## Turgon (Apr 20, 2002)

HLG - I'm interested that you don't believe in Evolution - science and God are not incompatable you know, in fact science suggests to me the greatest *possiblity* of the existence of *A* God there is... I'm not a Christian - in fact I don't believe in the whole 'revelation' thing at all, I consider myself to be an agnostic, there is no proof either way (although being something of an optimist I tend to think there is a chance) - regardless of what people try to convince you. (Saint) Thomas Aquinas argued that there are two ways to God - one is through revelation... i.e. Belief in the Bible or the Koran or whatever 'book' you happen to believe in... the other is through Reason. Man can find proof of God through reason alone... this of course the harder way - having to rely on logic rather than belief... but its not impossible.
The 'Big Bang' Theory has more holes in it than the structure of the universe itself... no one has managed to explain to my satisfaction, where the 'Big Bang' actually came from...
Okay, so there were all these H Atoms gathered together in a great mass, and then suddenly they all exploded and the universe was created, blah, blah, blah... everyone knows the theory, no problems with that... it makes perfect sense. The question remains, where did these Atoms come from? They just appeared out of nowhere? No, that's impossible according to the laws of science... Where did they come from? That's the crux of the Arguement... What was happening _before_ the Big Bang? Can anyone explain it? I'd be grateful if they did, because it been baffling me for about twenty years...
This thread has little to do with the Whole Aragorn as Jesus thing, I know, it's intended merely as a response to the whole - God doesn't exist stupid, waah, waah, waah... Athiesm in my mind, is almost just as untenable as blind belief, it seems to be the way with with this forum that the one who has the best 'arguement' must be right... regardless of truth or common sense... that's the reason I posted this... Sophism must never be allowed to win the day... So the people in Ancient Athens believed that Zeus really existed??? Tell that to Socrates or Plato or Euripides... they'd laugh in your face...


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## Goro Shimura (Apr 20, 2002)

Sounds like the classic Argument from Design, Turgon.... I agree that science and faith are not incompatable. 

It reminds me of a story. (I haven't verified this, but even if it's apocryphal, it makes the point.)

Isaac Newton, it is said, had this marvelous model of the solar system on his desk. If you turned the crank... all the planets and moons began to twirl about in their orbits.

Newton's atheist friend dropped by and got really excited about the intricate model.

"Who made it?" he asked.

"Nobody," replied Newton.

A Montey Python style argument ensued, with Newton repeatedly insisting in spite of any evidence that _Nobody_ had made the model.

"That's ludicrous!" the atheist exclaimed. "Something so intricate and beautiful doesn't just _happen_!"

While the man breathlessly tried to regain his composure, Newton calmly said.... "But my dear friend... that's exactly what you'd have me to believe about the _real_ solar system."


PS If bats and whales are descended from a common anscestor... then what did that anscestor look like? Approximately how many distinct intermediary forms occured during the evolutionary process to form the two species? What percentage of these intermediary forms have been discovered in the fossil record? Just wondering....


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## Turgon (Apr 20, 2002)

Goroshimura... what I find interesting is that Isaac Newton, author of the 'Principia', one of the greatest reasoning scientists we've ever had, was a devout christian... as was Copernicus, the most famous *christian* advocate of the Heliocentric view of the solar system... as was Galileo (though this is a view the *Greeks* had some 2000 years before)... just goes to show that science and religion are not incompatable. (Such a shame the Church tried to put a stopper into the mouth of reason!!!)... but hey, I loved the Monty Python thing... 'and so that my liege is how we now the earth to be banana shaped...'
As for evolution - mmm... Darwin's writings on Evolution are some of the best works of science I've ever read, so I don't think I can agree with you there...
I've always viewed the Bible as a metaphor... the whole Satan and Jesus thing is something on going in the mind of man... the battle between good and evil is internal, not external... what do you think...?


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## Goro Shimura (Apr 21, 2002)

Why Christians make Great scientists:

Christians believe that there is a Divine Lawgiver. They therefore _expect_ to find Laws in all aspects of reality.

They believe that the universe was created for a purpose... that it has a beginning and an end. They believe that the One who created the universe is both the greatest of all artists and the greatest of all engineers.

So when Christians examine reality, they _expect_ to find orderly and beutiful _consistent_ principles that underly it's structure.

People that have this view are more likely to persist in the search for a satisfying answer to whatever is puzzling them-- because they _know_ that there _is_ an answer!!



> I've always viewed the Bible as a metaphor... the whole Satan and Jesus thing is something on going in the mind of man... the battle between good and evil is internal, not external... what do you think...?


Hmm....

I once thought that way myself.

I believe that there is something broken in man that makes him very susceptible to temptations. Part of the struggle is due to man's nature... but there are higher powers that are engaged in a contest to influence man's behavior.

A great deal can be said about the internal aspects-- but I don't think a complete understanding of reality can occur without taking into account the external forces.

The problem with Jesus being merely a metaphore is that he was a genuine historical figure. If you are convinced that the Gospels contain eyewitness accounts of true historical events-- and the evidence is much stronger than what I would have prefered back when I was an agnostic!!-- then Jesus is real... and if Jesus is real (and if he actually said and did what the accounts say), then angels are real... and devils.

Suddenly you find yourself suddenly no longer living in a drab meaningless universe. The beauty of existence (and the seriousness of supernatural conflict) that is portrayed in LotR becomes something you can find outside of fiction.

It's the great irony of fantasy and escapism. We read these stories to get something... to fulfill some craving within us that maybe we don't quite understand. And here... all along right under our nose all along-- in the drawer of every hotel-- is a "fantasy" that actually stands a more than reasonable chance of actually being true!!


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## HLGStrider (Apr 21, 2002)

Having never been an Atheist, I am not very good at reasoning with them. I mean never... because I don't think you could count a kid the age I was before I got saved as anything. Anyway...

Evolution is a theory, and I have not the scientific no how to disprove it, but it isn't the only theory so I have a right to not believe it and still believe the law of Gravitation, Entropy (which goes against evolution) and all those other things. I don't plan to be a scientist, so I doubt I will come across it much anyway.

Where was I?

Oh yes...
Those Greeks you mentioned believed in a God for the most part, just not the type that they were used to worshipping. They believed in a logical God and a just one, finding Zues a tad bit too human for their taste. Cicero (Who was Roman, but he's the only one who I can give a sure example of so forgive me with that) was always appealing to an unnamed God. 

There are many examples of this. The Incas had a temple to an "unknown god". Anyone who thinks will either come to the conclusion that God is a logical, just being or come to conclusion that there isn't one. I don't know what makes the difference.


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## Bucky (Apr 21, 2002)

Well, I WAS an atheist, & now I KNOW that Jesus is God come to Earth in the flesh as a man.

E-mail me if you want to hear my rather unusual story.......


It's too long for Tolkien mail.
Just check out my whatever they call that personal information thing.....
A profile?
Sorry, I'm a computer moron.


>>>>>>>>I was reading Mere Christianity, by CS Lewis, and he used that arguement and it made a whole lot of sense... and I use and too much... and and and... where was I? 

That's about how I feel after one page of any of CS Lewis' Christian books.
A little too cerebral for me.

Btw, Diab:
You are Jewish & go to a Catholic school?
Interesting.

And, I never thought of the Elves as being inspired or representing the Jews.
Why?

I have, however thought that obviously Aragorn in terms of 'returning as king' brings to mind the 2nd coming of Jesus.

As for TLOR being a Christian parable, no.
Some inspiration, yes.

And Morgoth = Satan, obviously.


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## HLGStrider (Apr 22, 2002)

I like Lewis... the Screw Tape Letters are funny... I hope I can remember to mail you.


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## Bucky (Apr 22, 2002)

Actually, I recall reading some of that (Screwtape) & it was good.
I should pull it out again from my pile of (mostly) unread Christian literature.

'Mere Christianity' lost me quick.
So did 'The Problem With Pain', & that's a BIG cross in my life.....

Funny line by a friend of mine, real bible scholar with a teaching gift:
"The Bible sheds great light on the commentaries."

Get it?
It's usually said the other way around.


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## HLGStrider (Apr 22, 2002)

Got it...

Not everybody speaks to everybody, I suppose. Never read Problem with Pain... Just "Great Divorce" "Mere Christianity" and "Screwtape Letters".


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## Arwen Halfelven (Apr 22, 2002)

*Agreement here*

I totally agree with your assessment of Tolkien. I've heard too many people dismiss his religious background & say that the books are totally non-Christian & even actually pagan. There is a fine line in what one perceives as truth. Thank-you for a very succinct answer to all these postings.
Namarie!
Arwen Halfelven
"Elen sila lumenn'omentielvo!"


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