# Are elves and dwarfs cowards?



## Asmodeus (May 29, 2002)

*Elves+Dwarves cowards?*

Are elves and dwarfs in your opinion cowards?

I mean Suaron is preaching iminate doom in the books, and what happens both elves and dwarfs send 1 person each. Fair enough elronds sons came along later, but you'd reckon they'd lend a bit more assistance.? And as soon a the battle is won, they ride up like f'n heros to Aragorn's wedding. Plus if men were to lose, instead of helping, the elves were going to run off to their island. Personally i like these races, especially drawfs. But the roles they had to play in the story, left me severely disappointed, particularly in the elves. Sure in the upcoming movies, it looks like Arwen is gonna join the fights, but this is even worse. I really don't like her, actress or character, and believe PJ should remain true to the story in the movies. Just because she wasn't there in the books, doesn't mean she should be, it was Tolkien's decision and PJ should coincide with this.

Don't get me wrong, i love lord of the rings, one of my fav seires, and now FOTR is fav movie. But there are more elves + dwarfs in others, and i particularly don't like arwen. Liv Tyler did a great job in FOTR, but let her alone until the end of ROTK. Give a soppy lovy dovey ending then.

Got a bit side tracked there, but anyway, what do you think of E+D, cowards? -should be interesting


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## LotR_Girl (May 30, 2002)

Finally normal person who hates Arwen in the movie! I was against her since I've seen that ugly Liv Tyler! There's so much more better actress'!
Dunno what to think about e+d thing. I think Elves really had enough and wanted to be outta this battle. And stupid men--yeah, look what we do now! Elves were smart, they died before all these wars in XXI century...


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## Asmodeus (May 30, 2002)

i wouldn't go as far as hate, i mean she was kinda sexy in the movie. Yet her acting abilities, such as in other movies is god-awful. She played this one good, but maybe thats only because we saw her for 10 min max. and now there thinking of extending her role? damn!!!!!!


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## Elu Thingol (May 30, 2002)

The dwarves were probably fighting Sauron in the north and since the elves already won the first war of the ring why should they have to fight the second? Gandalf himself said it was time for the men to step up. Still the elves are acting sort of like cowards, I must admit that while I was reading LOTR I became extremely frustrated with the elves and how they kept leaving, but I think they were extremely bitter towards men and ME. Who can blame them?


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## Rangerdave (May 30, 2002)

The engagements on the fields of Gondor did prove to be the main theater of the War of the Ring, but it was by no means the only battlefield. The North waged war in their own lands. Cowards to send only three, I think not. The Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain, the Men of Dale, and the Elves of Mirkwood all faced battle on their home soil. 

RD


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## Asmodeus (May 30, 2002)

When was that said.? please provide a pg. no where that is said. I simply don't believe it. And it wasn't just the elves who fought in the first war, as the movie shows it was elves+men. if the men are stepping up 'again' why not the elves?


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## Legolam (May 30, 2002)

In the Council of Elrond, both Gloin and Legolas say that there is war about to break on their borders. Then, somewhere in ROTK I think, Gandalf (possibly) says that Sauron has assailed both the Lonely Mountain and Mirkwood and that if the Quest failed, all that, as well as Gondor, would be overrun.

The elves and dwarves were simply too busy defending their own borders to send thousands of troops to defend another city. If any of those three battles were lost (Pelenor, Mirkwood/Lorien and Dale), whole races could be wiped out. So they weren't cowards.


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## Gamil Zirak (May 30, 2002)

Read page 410 of Return of the King.


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## DRavisher (May 30, 2002)

I didn't ever see dwarves and elves as cowards, and i still don't. Thant's all i'm gonna say.


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## poncho524 (May 30, 2002)

i think the elves are arrogant. i mean all they do is hide and don't seem too concerned... then right when the world is safe, they ditch. they frustrated me in this story too. 

and i'd almost say frodo sucks for leaving too... but whatever...


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## Lantarion (May 30, 2002)

I see the Elves being portrayed as a bit too educated and 'deep' for their own good. Sure, Thranduil is a stout old Elf who can fight a fight, and the Elves of Lothlórien aren't that crap either. But during the book we don't really get a good idea of their heroic deeds in northern Mirkwood; only the calm, contemplative Galadriel and the tired Elrond. Actually Glorfindel is just about the only Elf except Legolas to show some actual guts!
The Dwarves were hardly present in the story, so we can't really judge them. Gimli was a violent fighter and a relentless axe-bearer; that is the only Dwarf we actually get any info on in the LotR (ok, Glóin, but hardly any). They fought for two whole days in Dale, protecting the Lonely Mountain and their homes. 
So I don't see either race as 'cowards', but because they are not in the limelight during the course of the book we don't really get great insight on their actions. Only ther Elves had a sort of "ah-who-cares-we-can-always-sail-to-Valinor" attitude.


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## Camille (May 30, 2002)

No way, dwarves and elves are not cowards!! they fought great and terrible fights in the past, fighting Sauron's master: melko, so that is proof enough, but at LOTR these races are diminished, specially the elves, dwarves have been fight their own wars (dragons, orcs) 


> When was that said.? please provide a pg. no where that is said. I simply don't believe it.


Asmodeus, the information about the great deeds of the elves of Mirkwood, Lothlorien and the dwarves of the Lonely Mountain in the war of the ring are in the appendices of the LOTR (finally I got them  ) and you can find more information at the Unfinished Tales, in the latter Galdalf said to Frodo and Co, tthe importance of those events.


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## JeffF. (May 30, 2002)

*In the Appendices*

You will see that the Silvan Elves and Dwarves of Erebor fought valiantly against odds. Lorien threw back three assaults against their borders. Legolas' father Thranduil led his people in a defense against a great assault from Dol Guldor and defeated those enemies in a long battle under the trees. The Dwarves of Erebor fought along side the Men of King Brand against an Army of Easterlings and both lost their Kings. They suffered siege and at the end sortied under their respective king's heirs to defeat the Easterlings. The Silvan Elves and Durin's Folk did all they could. The High Elves probably deserve the criticism, not caring for Middle Earth matters they excused themselves from conflict and did not even escort Frodo/Sam/Merry/Pippin when it was plain they were threatened on their way to Bree by Black Riders. Glorfindel is the only High Elf who actively does anything to contest the dark powers when he assists the hobbits and Aragorn prior to Rvendell.


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## LadyGaladriel (May 30, 2002)

Intresting thread but In a word , No 

Elves were not cowards . Elronds plans (as such it were) were to let 1 of the liberated races to go on this adventure . I do not think that The elves were cowards as more Elves were (Thoguh this could be a debate) going to go in P & M place. The Elves were willing to allow all there work fade so to stop sauron. The rings will fail . 

The dwarves didn't really get much into the War of the ring . They were worried because Black Nazgul kept comming up and pestering them But they stood firm and Sent Gloin ect to come and sort it out.


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## Asmodeus (May 30, 2002)

I doubt it, as you didn't experience it in the book, but it would be cool if say in the extended DVD of ROTK if you actually saw these battles of the elves and dwarfs. chances are unlikely, but i can still dream


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## Lantarion (May 31, 2002)

That would be unnaturally cool. 
Another EXCELLENT book which gives EXCELLENT detail about the battles outside of the narration is The Atlas of Middle-Earth. It has a map, providing times of when and numbers of how many people were involved, and at which point they entered the battles. Absolutely EXCELLENT.


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## HLGStrider (Jun 2, 2002)

At the time of the last war of the rings I would describe the High Elves as Exhausted, disillusioned, broken hearted, and dying out. How many High Elves were there? How many of them had had good lives? 

Elrond had lost his wife (she went over the sea and I assume he hadn't seen her in a Millinium or so...). He was going to loose his daughter. All he'd worked for in the first war had fallen appart... This guy is not a warrior anymore. 

Celeborn... There was a fight against Lorien and I will assume he took part in this along with Galadriel.

Arwen, too feminine. Doubt that she knew how to hold a sword.

Glorfindale was pretty old as well. Probably had similar personal problems to Elrond.

Cirdan, a sea captain busy with ships and even older than Elrond and Glorfindel. 

I'd say the whole race of high elves had almost given up and just wanted to "go home". They were seriously diminished. I also like to imagine that Elrond, having his ring, might've done some telepathic fighting... you never know. Also I can see him fortifying Rivendale in case it was finally assaulted. I don't see him running out until after every last thing had been tried.

The Silvan elves and dwarves did fight, so no use calling them cowards.


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## Cian (Jun 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> At the time of the last war of the rings I would describe the High Elves as Exhausted, disillusioned, broken hearted, and dying out. How many High Elves were there? How many of them had had good lives?



Don't forget that JRRT described the Elves however (here through Sam), so old _and young_ & so _gay_ and sad. Gildor's band were positively merry _"... Now is the time for speech and merriment!"_ (FotR) Note also the merriment with Bilbo and the laughter and song in Rivendell. 

Although the long-lived Elves were indeed subject to regret and weariness, (naturally! nor were Men even free of this), they could be as innocent and merry as children too -- and don't forget also that they had been summoned West by the Powers, and again (following the War of Wrath) the Exiles counselled to leave Middle-earth, for example. Some Elves eventually wearied of the world and answered "the call", yes, but theoretically many of the Noldor could have left much earlier, before Saurons rise to Power in the SA! And remember who it was that recalled the White Council, for example. 



> _HLGStrider posted:_ Elrond had lost his wife (she went over the sea and I assume he hadn't seen her in a Millinium or so...). He was going to loose his daughter. All he'd worked for in the first war had fallen appart... This guy is not a warrior anymore.



Tolkien described Elrond _"... and yet as hale as a tried warrior in the fulness of his strength."_ Elrond was mighty among Elves and Men. He ultimately _chose_ to be a healer -- and the Eldar believed that killing, even hunting, diminished the power of healing. 


Generally to the thread: Gandalf thought that Sauron's initial plan was to attack Imladris and Lórien -- The White Council attacked Dol Guldur first, and the Elves would surely have defended these realms if attacked, as did the Elves of Lórien and Mirkwood -- just like the Gondorians defended their own realm, the Northern Men and Dwarves defended their realms  Imladris was surely a target in any event, even if only a secondary one after the attack on Dol Guldur, or perhaps rather after any successful sweep north, if Mirkwood and Lórien had not held the Western line. 

And as for "fear" (LoL as if!!!!!) The history of the Noldor! in battle, speaks for itself!

_"And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven wise ... they do not fear the Ringwraiths ..."_ JRRT

There is nothing remotely cowardly about the Elves and Dwarves who simply fought upon different fields -- a great force ultimately came in the South, indeed, and the histories naturally record this great battle.

The other efforts, _no less heroic_, got less "ink" historically. But cowards? BAH! a resounding defeaning BAH that doesn't come near my true reaction to the very idea


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## HLGStrider (Jun 3, 2002)

Good point, I suppose... I was just thinking about how depressed Elrond sounded through all the meetings and stuff.


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## Tyaronumen (Jun 3, 2002)

Well, after a couple of 'Ages' of dealing with Melkor and his ilk, he's probably starting to feel a little bit "been there, done that" about the whole deal. 

Probably wishes that little punk Isildur had listened, too.


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## HLGStrider (Jun 3, 2002)

Kids... they never learn...


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## Theoden (Jun 4, 2002)

We have to remember that elves had been around for a long long long long time. It's not like they hadn't spilt thier blood at all... in fact, it seems that from the Sil, that elves are the ones who really start fighting when everyone else wanted to stop their ears and close their eyes.

I really liked Gimli but on a whole, I think dwarves are selfish and a little oafish. I didn't care for them that much and in the Hobbit, they are greedy and often too ready to shift the blame and never very grateful. So, sorry to all of you dwarf lovers out there, but dwarves are not on my top ten list for races.

I don't think that they were cowards.


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## Camille (Jun 4, 2002)

Ok so we agree that elves, nor dwarves are cowards? Ok!
It is has been sad in this thread about the valor of the elves


> The White Council attacked Dol Guldur first,


But I would like to know if anyone knkows how the white council made Sauron go away from Dol guldur, in a great battle? how I do not recall reading anything about it, except that th WC did it, but how?


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## Cian (Jun 4, 2002)

Here's a couple ref examples for memory jog  brief as they are here:

_"That is why, to jump forward, I went off as the expedition against Smaug was well started, and persuaded the Council to attack Dol Guldur first, before he attacked Lórien. We did, and Sauron fled. But he was always ahead of us in his plans ..."_ UT

The Tale of Years gives mention that Saruman agreed to the attack (after earlier overruling Gandalf's urgings to do so), wishing to prevent Sauron from searching the River. And: "... Sauron having made his plans abandons Dol Guldur."


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