# Orc women



## Rivendell_librarian (May 2, 2020)

Apparently Tolkien wrote in a letter that there must be orc women (female orcs) but does anyone know if they are ever referred to in the canonical or non canonical works?


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## Deleted member 12094 (May 3, 2020)

Not that I know of, no.

Sexism alert! If they exist, then these women must cook horribly, when judging from the type of food (<beurk>) orcs are used to...


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## Elthir (May 3, 2020)

I don't recall a mention either. Arguably implied. . . or that is, I infer female orcs from the idea that Orcs reproduced after the manner of the
Children of Eru.


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## Aldarion (May 3, 2020)

No, they are not mentioned. But neither are dwarven women... which raises an interesting possibility - namely, that (much like dwarves), sexual dimorphism in orcs is nonexistent or else so subtle to not be noticeable by outsiders... perhaps they differentiate sexes by pheromones (smell), rather than visually?


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## Rivendell_librarian (May 3, 2020)

More details of the letter can be found here:

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Letter_to_Mrs_Munby

"_There must have been orc-women. But in stories that seldom if ever see the Orcs except as soldiers of armies in the service of the evil lords we naturally would not learn much about their lives. Not much was known"_


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## Deleted member 12094 (May 3, 2020)

No Aldarion, dwarf-women *do *exist! Just read this in App.A of LotR ("Annals of Kings and Rulers"):

_It was said by Gimli that there are few dwarf-women, probably no more than a third of the whole people. They seldom walk abroad except at great need. They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of other peoples cannot tell them apart. This has given rise to the foolish opinion among Men that there are no dwarf-women, and that the Dwarves ‘grow out of stone’. _​


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## Aldarion (May 3, 2020)

Merroe said:


> No Aldarion, dwarf-women *do *exist! Just read this in App.A of LotR ("Annals of Kings and Rulers"):
> 
> _It was said by Gimli that there are few dwarf-women, probably no more than a third of the whole people. They seldom walk abroad except at great need. They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of other peoples cannot tell them apart. This has given rise to the foolish opinion among Men that there are no dwarf-women, and that the Dwarves ‘grow out of stone’. _​



Read my post again. I am aware that they exist. I merely pointed out that they are not mentioned *in the story*.


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## Deleted member 12094 (May 3, 2020)

Aldarion said:


> Read my post again. I am aware that they exist. I merely pointed out that they are not mentioned *in the story*.



😅


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## Alcuin (May 3, 2020)

Rivendell_librarian said:


> More details of the letter can be found here:
> 
> http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Letter_to_Mrs_Munby
> 
> "_There must have been orc-women. But in stories that seldom if ever see the Orcs except as soldiers of armies in the service of the evil lords we naturally would not learn much about their lives. Not much was known"_


I wonder if we can find photographic reproductions of the rest of this letter?


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## Rivendell_librarian (May 3, 2020)

I don't know Alcuin.


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## Alice (May 4, 2020)

Maybe Tolkien simply didn't want to embarrass his readers with descriptions of orc women. Also his concept of orcs changed throughout his life, maybe sometimes he was not sure about that


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## Olorgando (May 4, 2020)

As JRRT once commented about his early writing about Orcs, they were the "infantry of the Old War (whatever war he meant)", who could be slaughtered in huge masses by his good side without compunction. I would guess that thinking about the females that he himself had postulated as per E(A)'s above post


Elthir said:


> … Orcs reproduced after the manner of the Children of Eru.


went beyond his imagination (and very certainly beyond his - or that of any human - experience in the "real world" - at least I *hope *so!)


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## Elthir (May 4, 2020)

We also never get any scenes of Orcs and Men . . . erm . . . "making" Half-orcs . . . or "Halorcs" as no one calls them.


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## Olorgando (May 4, 2020)

We never get scenes of *anybody* making the "next generation" - apparently a major gripe of the "modernist" critics … 🙄


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## Elthir (May 4, 2020)

Good point. Tolkien's not exactly GRR Martin in this matter!


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## Olorgando (May 4, 2020)

GRRM? Depending on site suitability, a switch to PM might be advisable ...


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## Sir Eowyn (May 5, 2020)

Well, there is ONE Dwarf woman mentioned... Thorin Oakenshield's sister, Dis. 

I have to say the reproduction of orcs is some of the more disturbing food for thought available. But it must happen.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (May 5, 2020)

Elthir said:


> We also never get any scenes of Orcs and Men . . . erm . . . "making" Half-orcs . . . or "Halorcs" as no one calls them.


But I'm sure they didn't grow in tar pits.


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## Olorgando (May 6, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> But I'm sure they didn't grow in tar pits.


You mean vaguely like Saruman's Uruk-hai in the second film?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (May 6, 2020)

Yes.

But not "vaguely".


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## Olorgando (May 6, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Yes.
> But not "vaguely".


Dude, there are those famous La Brea Tar Pits in L.A. which have yielded tons of bones of critters by now extinct. Yo, those Uruks were tough, but tar pits would have left Saruman with a bunch of dinky Orcs that the Rohirrim would have dispatched in 15 minutes ...


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## Sir Eowyn (May 6, 2020)

Of course not... but I love the tar pits. Pretty horrific.


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## TrackerOrc (May 6, 2020)

I think I've always assumed (and must have read it somewhere) that Orcs were bred from Elves captured by Morgoth; if this is true then obviously female Orcs could have been part of the mix, so to speak, as female Elves were possibly captured as well?


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## Sir Eowyn (May 7, 2020)

And considering that Azog died in 2799 in that battle, and his son Bolg was around 140 years and more later, to fight before the Lonely Mountain, we know that they live long. Maybe they're like Elves in that they only die when they're killed... who knows? But anyway, the relationship between Azog and Bolg does show that they have family relationships, with acknowledged children.


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## TrackerOrc (May 7, 2020)

Sir Eowyn said:


> And considering that Azog died in 2799 in that battle, and his son Bolg was around 140 years and more later, to fight before the Lonely Mountain, we know that they live long. Maybe they're like Elves in that they only die when they're killed... who knows? But anyway, the relationship between Azog and Bolg does show that they have family relationships, with acknowledged children.


If they were indeed bred from Elves, then I don't see why they wouldn't have the same life-span as them? Which, of course, means that some of the Orcs fighting the War of the Ring may have been around for a very long time indeed! Obviously they lived a more warlike lifestyle than the other peoples of Middle-earth, if only because the other peoples definitely had a "the only good Orc is a dead Orc" policy towards them (which could be seen as quite problematic really).

And I would say that the Azog - Bolg relationship you menationed shows not just family relationships, but hereditary kingships, which is a fairly high development?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (May 7, 2020)

Tolkien later changed his mind, and decided orcs were bred from Men -- probably for some of the reasons you mentioned.


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## TrackerOrc (May 7, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Tolkien later changed his mind, and decided orcs were bred from Men -- probably for some of the reasons you mentioned.


Well I'm still going to stay in my happy place, thinking that the likes of the Tracker Orc (my favourite extremely-minor character) has been around for millenia, and has also survived the latest little setback and is happily pottering around down south somewhere!


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (May 7, 2020)

Well, that's one role model, I guess.



"Though I say it as shouldn't, you may think."


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## Elthir (May 7, 2020)

Maybe the tracker orc is a Maia-orc who chose its relative "smaller-ness" for deception? If so, perhaps he is flourishing these days . . . with so many people to track!

🐾
🐾
🐾
🐾
🐾


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## TrackerOrc (May 8, 2020)

Elthir said:


> Maybe the tracker orc is a Maia-orc who chose its relative "smaller-ness" for deception? If so, perhaps he is flourishing these days . . . with so many people to track!
> 
> 🐾
> 🐾
> ...


This would help explain his brilliance with the bow as well!


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## Olorgando (May 10, 2020)

In the light of the Ainulindalë, Morgoth being able to pervert either archaic Elves, or Men, into Orcs simply does not make sense.
But then, except for trashing Númenor, that nominal "father" of the Eruhini seems to have done practically nothing to help his "children" ...


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## Matthew Bailey (May 23, 2020)

Tolkien went through no less than five different “possibilities” for the question: _What are Orcs?_

And it was this very issue, and some others close to it, that caused him to fail to make much progress on the Mythos, and re-writing of the First Age after the completion of _*The Lord of the Rings*_. Tolkien indicates in _*The History of Middle-earth, vol X: Morgoth’s Ring *_that he had trouble conceiving of something so “heinously evil” as the corruption of either Elves or Men to such a state that they “bred true” as Orcs begatting Orcs.

He was fairly clear in his most complete conception of them that they did reproduce through normal “biological processes of sexual reproduction.” But he also still tended to cling to two earlier conception of Orcs (if not three), namely that there were some Orcs who were very minor Maiar who were corrupted by Morgoth, or that they were automatons, at first, “created” by Morgoth, and incapable of movement or action without Morgoth’s Will motivating them. The third conception he tended to return to was that they were “soulless animals” with a limited speech ability, such as some of the Wargs, Ravens, or as some terrestrial parrots are able to mimic speech.

Really, though, none of these conceptions of Orcs are mutually exclusive, and we could have seen Morgoth make use of all of them at one time or another, depending upon the period in question, or need of the moment.

This could mean that there are thousands to millions of the automaton-Orcs standing like the Chinese Terracotta Army of Qin Shi Huang (the first Chinese Emperor) beneath the waves of Belanger, awaiting Morgoth’s return before marching up out of the sea.

But as for “Orc Women,” why would we expect them to show-up in any of the stories?

All of the stories we have for Middle-earth are supposedly the translations from Elvish of the First/Second Ages, and immediate Eye Witness for _*The Hobbit *_and *The Lord of the Rings*, in the form of Bilbo, Frodo, Samwise, Merry & Pippin. And thus they would probably not have seen such a thing as being salient. Tolkien comments upon this aspect of the accounts of Middle-earth in both “Letters” and HoM-e, where he points out that we would likely have a very different perspective were these histories to have been the original Elven account, or later accounts by Men (whether of Númenór or Middle-earth), Dwarves, or people living under the dominion of Sauron.

So the anthropological account of Orc Society isn’t exactly a point of relevance to the “authors” of these accounts.

MB


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## Elthir (May 24, 2020)

Matthew Bailey said:


> ( . . . ) But he also still tended to cling to two earlier conception of Orcs (if not three), namely that there were some Orcs who were [snip for brevity, by Elthir or Galin] or that they were automatons, at first, “created” by Morgoth, and incapable of movement or action without Morgoth’s Will motivating them. ( . . . ) This could mean that there are thousands to millions of the automaton-Orcs standing like the Chinese Terracotta Army of Qin Shi Huang (the first Chinese Emperor) beneath the waves of Belanger, awaiting Morgoth’s return before marching up out of the sea.




While I certainly might have forgotten something here, at the moment my general recollection is that once (within a general time frame at least) Tolkien switched from Morgoth "making" Orcs to Morgoth corrupting already existing beings, the notion of orcs as automatons was not a consideration.

Sorry to be lazy, but can you provide the source for the automaton idea resurfacing?


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## Sir Eowyn (May 24, 2020)

If they were all automatons, the Dark Lord wouldn't be uneasy openly informing them about the Ring... as he is. Plus, the nature of orcs can make them unruly. I very much doubt it was Sauron's intent for that brawl in Cirith Ungol to basically empty the place.


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## Elthir (May 24, 2020)

In _Myths Transformed_ (Morgoth's Ring) I dimly recall Tolkien comparing the notion of "puppets" to "absorbed orcs" -- but the latter were not actual automatons _if I recall correctly_ -- I think it depended upon how much of Morgoth's "eye" was upon a group of the Absorbed (at a given time).

🐾


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## Matthew Bailey (May 24, 2020)

Elthir said:


> While I certainly might have forgotten something here, at the moment my general recollection is that once (within a general time frame at least) Tolkien switched from Morgoth "making" Orcs to Morgoth corrupting already existing beings, the notion of orcs as automatons was not a consideration.
> 
> Sorry to be lazy, but can you provide the source for the automaton idea resurfacing?



The idea was discarded and picked-up again a couple of times, with his last comments again rejecting it (from the essay _Orcs_ in _*The History of Middle-earth, vol X: Morgoth’s Ring*_ in the latter part of the book titled _Myths Transformed_).

Ultimately he never definitively resolved the issue of “What are Orcs?” While the Orcs being “corrupted existing beings” was what he last explored, the concept disturbed him _*immensely*_, as Tolkien struggled with, and was repulsed by, the need to “think like Satan” in order to accurately understand the various things Morgoth (and then Sauron. The former being described as “Satan” and the latter as “The Devil,” which in Catholic Theology and Mythology are actually two distinct “entities/things) did that corrupted the world.

In the case of Orcs being corrupted Elves or Humans, Tolkien recoiled from the idea due to him considering it “too Evil to contemplate.” Which is a bit of an irony if you think about it: The source of all Evil in the world begins the process of corrupting Elves and Humans, and then stops himself, saying “Woah! What am I doing here?! This is just _too Evil_ for even me, the source of ultimate Evil in the Universe, to contemplate. I better think of a less-Evil way to do this.”

The “thing” Tolkien attributed to an ”Absolute Evil Too great to contemplate,“ was that Morgoth’s “Corruption” of the Elves and Men would produce a race/breed of beings that bred true as _Orcs_, and not as Elves or Men (that a male and female Orc having bred would produce another Orc, rather than producing an Elf, or Human offspring). Tolkien struggled with this largely out of ignorance with Biology, and no small rejection of Evolutionary Theory, which the Catholic Church at the time still rejected (Which would mean that within Eä, Evolution as it exists in our Universe is impossible. The Metaphysics required for that are daunting, to say the least). So.... He wasn’t even aware that such “corruptions” would EASILY produce Orcs that “Bred True,” without having to even resort to what in our universe would be considered a “Supernatural Mechanism.”

But one of the things Tolkien never really explored was that none of these methods or explanations for the origin of Orcs were exclusive, or contradicted by the others. Orcs could very well have been all of the different manifestations Tolkien attributes to them. Especially given the paradoxes that Tolkien identified in the First Age, where he began to understand that the 590 years he allotted for the First Age was really 2,000 to 3,000 years too little, and that in order for not just the Orcs to come into existence, but also the History of the Edain demanding many more than a half-dozen generations between their awakening, and discovery in Beleriand (and their first _Fall_ as described in the _Athrabeth_).

There are also some unpublished materials that Tolkien wrote on this subject that will not see the light of day for several decades, as both JRRT and CJRT did not want them exposed (Tolkien felt ashamed that he had even contemplated their contents). I have seen one of these in 1982, just prior to Christopher Tolkien taking possession of the entirety of the Bodleian Library’s collection of JRRT’s writings for the First/Second Ages. It is very likely that collectively these could answer more definitively the issue of “What are Orcs?” despite none of these essays themselves reaching a firm conclusion.

mB


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (May 25, 2020)

Quite interesting, MB!

I'm not sure how ignorant Tolkien was about biology; he himself described his interest in science from an early age, and certainly had a lifelong fascination with botany, as his letters make clear.

As far as conflict with Catholic doctrine, then or now, well, there are always workarounds, but even they aren't necessary for "secondary creation", or, to put it in other terms, a _hypothetical _expression of ideas in artistic context, as Tolkien said in defense of Elvish "reincarnation".

And for orcs, we have Saruman and his Uruk-hai, which seems pretty evil, though the author distanced himself from the implications a bit by placing speculation about their origins into the mouth of Treebeard.

Still, you raise interesting questions -- I'd particularly like to hear more about the manuscript you saw!


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## Elthir (May 25, 2020)

Matthew Bailey said:


> The idea was discarded and picked-up again a couple of times, with his last comments again rejecting it (from the essay _Orcs_ in _*The History of Middle-earth, vol X: Morgoth’s Ring*_ in the latter part of the book titled _Myths Transformed_).




Matthew, nice post. But here, as I noted above, I don't recall JRRT considering orcs automatons after the general period of the notable "switch" (so to speak) -- from Morgoth creating orcs
(idea found in early _Silmarillion_ texts for example, and initial drafting for the _Annals of Aman_, for another) > to Morgoth corrupting existing beings, as opinioned by Frodo in _The Lord of the Rings._

If the only text here is one of the later orc notes in _Myths Transformed_ (meaning those published directly after MT "orc text X"), in my opinion Tolkien doesn't seem to reconsider and reject orcs as automatons, but rather brings up the notion of "puppets" because the absorbed orcs could seem like automatons, even though they were not.

Granted, I guess one could see this as an idea being picked up again and rejected, but to my mind Tolkien's comparison here does not, or at least does not necessarily, amount to a reconsideration of orcs as automatons at such a late point in Orcology.

Anyway, "hair split", I guess.

That said, if there is anything pertinent to this question in the yet unpublished writings you saw, or _anything_ else, I promise to keep it secret . . .

. . . just add it to this thread in invisible "ink"


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## Alcuin (May 25, 2020)

Matthew Bailey said:


> There are also some unpublished materials that Tolkien wrote on this subject that will not see the light of day for several decades, as both JRRT and CJRT did not want them exposed (Tolkien felt ashamed that he had even contemplated their contents). I have seen one of these in 1982, just prior to Christopher Tolkien taking possession of the entirety of the Bodleian Library’s collection of JRRT’s writings for the First/Second Ages. It is very likely that collectively these could answer more definitively the issue of “What are Orcs?” despite none of these essays themselves reaching a firm conclusion.


I, too, would like to know something of these materials. I wonder if they will become available again now that CJRT has passed. If you would, please convey what you can recall of them!


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## Matthew Bailey (May 25, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Quite interesting, MB!
> 
> I'm not sure how ignorant Tolkien was about biology; he himself described his interest in science from an early age, and certainly had a lifelong fascination with botany, as his letters make clear.
> 
> ...



Tolkien’s ignorance of Biology was largely due to the state of the Science at the time, but also due to his Religious Faith. I was born Catholic, but grew-up among varieties of “creationists,” whether of the Catholic variety, or Evangelical, Accommodationalist or not, and they all manifest a sizable blindsight when it comes to the Life Sciences (which I took-up the formal study of my second time through a University).

The problems with Tolkien’s understanding of Biology, and the ignorance regarding, are more to do with Theological perspectives than Scientific ones (and thus are more to do with Metaphysics than actual Science). He rejects what is the foundational principle of Biology, namely Evolutionary Theory, as during most of his like the position of the Catholic Church was that “no such thing exists.”

That tends to make a complete understanding of Biology outright impossible, where any understanding is going to be ephemeral, and only cover Biology as it exists within a single organism, rather than between organisms, and across an environment or biosphere as a whole.

His ignorance wasn’t that of the raving Creationist, like Ken Ham, or Ray Comfort (the Banana-Man, whom I had the distinct misfortune of having to debate at UCLA in 2011. _*DAMN *_he is stupid!), but rather that of having a basic understanding that biology operates via chemical reactions within cells, that form organs, which have functional operations that keep us alive that we tend to think of in terms of things like Metabolism (which is actually an intra-cellular process).

And his understanding of Genetics was pretty much confined to Mendel, which did not provide a great deal in terms of understanding how the fundamental phenotype can be altered radically through the DNA/genotype. His comments on bemoaning how corrupted Elves/Humans to “create” Orcs would be unable to breed more Orcs, but would instead produce Elven or Human children in such a Union reveals that gap in his understanding of Biology and Genetics.

This is all a case of the Metaphysical inference of “_Given the existence of X, Y, & Z within Middle-earth, properties A, B, C, ... etc. *must be True*_ _in order for X, Y, Z, ... to exist as described._”

Tolkien crashed into that wall of Metaphysical necessity/requirement again-and-again, due to the results all arriving *EXACTLY *where all past Catholic Theologians, and all past Philosophers, have arrived due to these same assumptions over the last 2600 years. And in Tolkien’s case, like that of Catholicism, these “collisions” produced heretical answers that Tolkien’s Faith refused to allow him to consider.

So Tolkien’s ignorance isn’t due to a lack of intelligence, it was a matter of self-censoring much of Biology that Catholicism considered time be “heretical” and “anathema” until very late in his life (Pius XII’s _Humani generis_ in 1950 proclaimed that “no conflict existed between Biblical Creation and Evolution. But that work contained a LOT of caveats concerning animals “evolving” into “different species.” And the whole muddied-water of the concept of “race” still existed at that time as well. But that is _*just one *_of the _*many *_different topics/issues that Tolkien had to tangle/engage with that kept circling back around to heretical solutions. But even with the Catholic Church saying that “no conflict exists,” that isn’t the same as outright accepting it as something that actually happened, happens, and will continue to happen). The larger essay we have no shortage of statements indicating his ideological blindsight, rejecting whole swaths of Biology because it conflicts with Catholic Faith.

For instance:



> _*The History of Middle-eart, vol. X: Morgoth’s Ring*, Orcs. _pp. 409 – 424.
> It also seems clear (see _Finrod and Andreth_) that though Melkor could utterly corrupt and ruin *individuals *[emphasis mine], it is not possible to contemplate his absolute perversion of a whole people, or group of people’s, and _his making that state heritable _[_Added later:_ This latter must (if a fact) be an act of Eru.]




Here we have Tolkien saying “I cannot bring myself to contemplate Melkor/Morgoth being able to so corrupt/pervert a being that their offspring inherit that same corruption/perversion. And this statement isn’t the only place where he says this. Later on he repeats it, and in _*Letters of JRRT *_we see identical statements regarding Morgoth being unable to induce “heritable changes” to a species/race.

When the simplest knowledge of biology, and Mendelian Heritability shows that such a thing is pretty trivial to produce.

But Tolkien prevents himself from even considering it due to the Catholic/Christian Theology regarding the sanctity of the Body (and it’s “appearance” — look into the theological and philosophical properties of _Physiognomy_, or that the appearance of a thing dictates its “nature” or “Soul”).

Anyway... I am derailing my train of thought on a paper I am writing for _Mythopoeic Press _on the Infrastructure and Construction Methods of the Númenórean Kingdoms in Exile (and their 2nd Age construction in Middle-earth: Umbar, Pelargir, Vinyalondë, Tharbad, and the unnamed multitude of Cities in Harad that became the bastion of the _Black Númenóreans_ after the Akallabêth)... So I will need to put those thoughts back in order before this subject overwhelms it.

As for the other writings on Orcs... I am unable to reveal very much of its contents via an agreement that got me access to his works in the first place. In it, Tolkien was more indulgent of “considering” possibilities for the origin of Orcs that he indicates his “inability to contemplate” in the different sources that are published. I kind of got the feeling when reading it that when he went to confession after having written it that his confessor told him that he must cease “entertaining such thoughts” (a common prerequisite for absolution in Catholic Confession), and that his inability to “contemplate” these things was due to an edit from his confessor, resulting in his being unable to discover a solution he was “allowed” to contemplate. It isn’t likely that even Christopher, were he still alive, would be able to shed any light on that subject, if he were both able and willing to do so (I’ve had two conversations with Christopher, totaling a little over an hour, combined... And there were many subjects that he was “unable to discuss/reveal anything further.” The conversations were not without revealing a great deal about Middle-earth, and he did compliment me on having focused primarily upon the Metaphysical and Theological aspects of Middle-earth, rather than the languages. He said something to the effect of it being very tiring for people to constantly ask for new Sindarin, Quenyan, or Númenórean/Westron words, as if he had the Middle-earth equivalent of an Oxford Dictionary. I said that I was more interested in knowing how Middle-earth IS — Existential, Ontological, and Teleological properties... i.e. “Metaphysics” — than I am in what language the people within it speak when they describe these properties).

MB



Alcuin said:


> I, too, would like to know something of these materials. I wonder if they will become available again now that CJRT has passed. If you would, please convey what you can recall of them!



It will still be some few decades before any of this material makes its way into the public’s hands due to instructions left by both JRRT and CJRT. Both left instructions that it was to be kept in Trust until around 2060-something.


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## TrackerOrc (May 25, 2020)

Just on a reading of LoTR itself, I think the orcs show way too much independence and individualism to be regarded in any way as automatons. I mean, look at Tracker Orc...


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## Olorgando (May 26, 2020)

Nowadays, a possibility for the breeding of Orcs would be cloning (I think the "Star Wars" legendarium went down that path). But that certainly was nothing JRRT - or even the most advanced biologists of his day - could have contemplated.

At least in the insect world, there are species that can produce offspring from unfertilized eggs, the aphids among them (and male bees). So it is possible for individuals to exist with only one set of chromosomes (or genes), instead of the two sets that are to be found in fertilized eggs. But this, too, might not have been known in JRRT's time.


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## Matthew Bailey (May 26, 2020)

TrackerOrc said:


> Just on a reading of LoTR itself, I think the orcs show way too much independence and individualism to be regarded in any way as automatons. I mean, look at Tracker Orc...



I think you may have missed the relevant point of the consideration of Orcs as _Automatons_.

Tolkien had considered this only for the First Age, or earlier, as if that was the only form of “Orc” in existence then with Morgoth’s banishment, all of the Orcs would have become statues, unable to move or do anything without Morgoth’s _Will_ being focused upon them.

In the essays Tolkien wrote for himself regarding Orcs, this was one of the reasons he rejected it. Although, as I pointed out, that “rejection” was likely too hasty, as prior to the Children of Eru awakening in Middle-earth, this would have been a relatively effective means of producing “soldiers” for his use, that would have continued to be of use even after the corruption/perversion of Elves and Humans created the Race(s) of Orcs that could breed “biologically.”

One of the features that Tolkien most attributed to all other forms of “Orc,” though, was _Rebelliousness_. Whether those Orcs were what Tolkien identified as _Boldoeg_ (very minor Maiar), or whether they were “mere Animals, without Fëar,“ and thus unable to _truly comprehend speech_, although able to mimic it, as do parrots... Or whether they were corrupted/perverted Elves and Humans, all of them possessed, as the core of their being a “_Hatred of Morgoth, and of existence itself_.” That made them especially “independent,” as you have put it.

But of any Orcs that Morgoth “assembled” (so as to draw a distinction with Tolkien obsession over “_Creation_,” where Tolkien was freakishly overly literal) which were “automatons,” Sauron’s _Will_ would have been inadequate to “Motivate” this population of Orcs, and at best they would have provided him with a few tens of thousands of automaton-Orcs that he could draw-upon in times of great need. But otherwise... At the capture, binding, and ejection of Morgoth from the _Circles of the World_, all of the “Automaton Orcs” would have ceased moving, and basically become statues that sank beneath the waves with the rest of Beleriand.

One of the benefits for having given little attention to Tolkien’s “Toy Languages” (This is a linguistic term for an “invented language.” It isn’t a pejorative meant to diminish Tolkien’s work on those languages), and instead studied the Theology, Philosophy, and Metaphysics of Middle-earth is that you discover a _*LOT *_of things that tend to leave many people wondering about, yet which Tolkien actually provided an answer to. It is just that these answers are not in the form of:



> The answer to _Question X_ is A, B, and C.



Many people miss these answers due to being focused _*either *_upon the Languages, *or* that they are looking for more “story” (a narrative history of events within Middle-earth).

In any event... Teasing these things out of what Tolkien did leave is not an easy process.



Olorgando said:


> Nowadays, a possibility for the breeding of Orcs would be cloning (I think the "Star Wars" legendarium went down that path). But that certainly was nothing JRRT - or even the most advanced biologists of his day - could have contemplated.
> 
> At least in the insect world, there are species that can produce offspring from unfertilized eggs, the aphids among them (and male bees). So it is possible for individuals to exist with only one set of chromosomes (or genes), instead of the two sets that are to be found in fertilized eggs. But this, too, might not have been known in JRRT's time.



While cloning could be a possibility for Orcs, it is something that would have been a likely impossibility within Middle-earth. It is a subject where there is a LOT of contention within the Catholic Church over, due to the issue of “Where does a Clone get its _Soul_?”

It was precisely that issue that gave Tolkien such grief over the question of “What are Orcs, anyway?” And to a Catholic, the existence of, and granting of a “Soul” is a freakishly huge and consequential issue. I only know enough Catholic Theology to know that the whole Idea of Cloning a Human is utter anathema. Because doing so would mean a “Soulless pretender,” among other things.

That doesn’t mean that I, personally, agree with their stance... But only that Tolkien certainly would.

And we have a _*LOT *_of different animals, and plants, that are capable of parthenogenesis (producing offspring from what might be considered “unfertilized eggs.”

That would be another “no-no” in Middle-earth, however, because in Catholic Theology, Parthenogenesis occurred precisely once in our universe, in a poor Levantine girl named “Mary,” who was “impregnated” by the Holy Ghost by way of the “Father,” to give birth to himself as the “Son.” .... So it is very likely that had Tolkien been aware of things like Snakes, Crocodiles, Frogs, Fish, a handful or Birds, and legions of insects, who were capable of producing offspring without the need of a “mate” (and it is ALWAYS the females who do this) he would have been unable to bring himself to allow this to exist in Middle-earth, even as an act of supreme-evil by what he identified as “Satan” or the “Diabolus” (that’s Morgoth... Tolkien regularly referred to him as “Satan,” and to Sauron as “The Devil”).

And... As I mentioned previously... It is not out of the realm of possibility that Tolkien could have confessed considering such things as a plot device for his Mythology to his Priest, as having had “impure thoughts” (a pretty common “filler” in Catholic Confessions, but in Tolkien’s case, something he would very likely have actually confessed to due to his attempts to answer questions like “What are Orcs, anyway?”). And one of the most common orders from a Confessor to a Petitioner is to “Cease the activity that causes these impure thoughts,” which would have caused Tolkien to forever abandon that line of thought....

But in terms of simple Biology, we needn’t resort to something so elaborate or resource-intensive as Cloning or forms of Parthenogenesis. A simple CRISPR-Cas9 would be enough to gain the relevant traits needed to corrupt/pervert Elves or Humans to an Orc that produces Orc Offspring. And CRISPR doesn’t violate nearly as many “inviolate” Catholic Tenets or Beliefs.

But they are certainly methods (especially certain possible analogs to “cloning”) that Sauron could have resorted to in order to rapidly fill-out the ranks of an army.

And another area that I didn’t touch-upon here is the Predator-Prey Models that would be applicable to Orcs (who would be an Apex Predator in Middle-earth) that also impact how they came into being, or were “reproduced.”

But it is well-past my bedtime, now...

MB


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## Olorgando (May 26, 2020)

Matthew Bailey said:


> ... So it is very likely that had Tolkien been aware of things like Snakes, Crocodiles, Frogs, Fish, a handful or Birds, and legions of insects, who were capable of producing offspring without the need of a “mate” (and it is ALWAYS the females who do this) ...


Yes, that point is the critical one where this breaks down for orcs. While one aspect of haplodiploid insects such as bees fits quite well, that the unfertilized eggs produce only males (drones), this would necessitate the existence of "queen bee" Orcs, as only females produce the necessary eggs - quite the opposite of a "solution" to the question of female Orcs!


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## Elthir (May 26, 2020)

TrackerOrc said:


> Just on a reading of LoTR itself, I think the orcs show way too much independence and individualism to be regarded in any way as automatons. I mean, look at Tracker Orc...




Tracker, this was indeed part of Tolkien's reasoning in _Myths Transformed_, Orc text VIII:

"1) As the case of Aule and the Dwarves shows, only Eru could make creatures with independent wills, and with reasoning powers. But orcs seem to have both: they can try to cheat Morgoth/Sauron, rebel against him, or criticize him. 

2) ? Therefore they must be _corruptions_ of something."

Again, one might read that as Tolkien reconsidering automatons and rejecting it (now that I've actually taken the book out myself, for a memory refresh). Okay. To my mind JRRT never really goes there too seriously at least, "stomping" on the idea right off and confirming what he had already imagined years before (corruptions)

And as for early orcs, before corruptions (Elves, Men) became easily available, in the MT "orc texts" Tolkien imagined:

Text VIII Maiar-orcs "could have been primitive (and much more powerful and perilous) Orcs," who could practice procreation. Text IX Morgoth had "numerous corrupted minor spirits" in his service
Text X "greater and more terrible" Maiar orcs are noted here -- where JRRT also pushed back the Awakening of Men to allow an "Orcs from Men" conclusion here, for the "regular" kind of orc, at least.

🐾


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## TrackerOrc (May 26, 2020)

Matthew Bailey said:


> I think you may have missed the relevant point of the consideration of Orcs as _Automatons_.
> 
> Tolkien had considered this only for the First Age, or earlier, as if that was the only form of “Orc” in existence then with Morgoth’s banishment, all of the Orcs would have become statues, unable to move or do anything without Morgoth’s _Will_ being focused upon them.
> 
> ...


I only meant to point out that in the LoTR itself, the primary source for the actual story, the orcs are as individual and independent as any other ace of ME - perhaps even more so than some!
Their origins outside the story, whilst endlessly fascinating, don't actually have to have a bearing on LoTR itself?



Elthir said:


> Tracker, this was indeed part of Tolkien's reasoning in _Myths Transformed_, Orc text VIII:
> 
> "1) As the case of Aule and the Dwarves shows, only Eru could make creatures with independent wills, and with reasoning powers. But orcs seem to have both: they can try to cheat Morgoth/Sauron, rebel against him, or criticize him.
> 
> ...


So are these orc texts part of the HoME series? I'm waiting on delivery of vol 6-9 and UT, so are they in there somewhere?


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## Elthir (May 26, 2020)

Tracker, the _Myths Transformed_ texts (contains some "orc texts") have been published in_ Morgoth's Ring_, _The History of Middle-earth series,_ volume 10.





🐾


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## TrackerOrc (May 27, 2020)

Elthir said:


> Tracker, the _Myths Transformed_ texts (contains some "orc texts") have been published in_ Morgoth's Ring_, _The History of Middle-earth series,_ volume 10.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh dear, more books to buy it seems


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## Elthir (May 27, 2020)

Tracker, I don't want you to be too disappointed by the orc texts in _Morgoth's Ring _(although the book contains heaps of other great stuff, like the conversation between Finrod and Andreth for example), but very briefly here . . .

Myths Transformed [MT] text 7 ends with a description about a possible orc-origin.

Orc text (MT text 8) is relatively short, Tolkien thinking with his pen.

Orc text (MT text 9) is very short in any case!

Orc text (MT text 10) is the best of them, as far as being a fuller, more finished text anyway, and seemingly represents Tolkien's "final" decision (Orcs from Men plus Maiar-orcs) according to Christopher Tolkien -- although CJRT then adds a couple more notes that might _possibly_ undermine this seeming finality -- but which notes, I myself don't find very problematic, especially given that in another late note published in _Unfinished Tales_ (a note to _The Druedain_), Tolkien writes that the _Eldar say_ (at least) that the source for Orcs were various kinds of Men

-- and while this might be seen to represent an Eldarin opinion, in any case, contrast this to the earlier idea of the Wise of Eressea with respect to Orcs as corrupted Elves, the notion taken up into Christopher Tolkien's 1977 Silmarillion.

Anyway, doesn't mean these texts aren't interesting, I'm just saying they won't take up much of your time as far as reading them, even combined.


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## TrackerOrc (May 27, 2020)

Elthir said:


> Tracker, I don't want you to be too disappointed by the orc texts in _Morgoth's Ring _(although the book contains heaps of other great stuff, like the conversation between Finrod and Andreth for example), but very briefly here . . .
> 
> Myths Transformed [MT] text 7 ends with a description about a possible orc-origin.
> 
> ...


I'll basically be reading this stuff as a very secondary source for LoTR; I'll probably end up buying all the HoME series (again!) and dipping in and out of them just for interest. I'm sure that I'll stick to my usual vague thoughts that the orcs are the baddies, therefore interesting, and be happy with that!


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## Olorgando (May 28, 2020)

One thought has sluggishly made it's way, that of sexual dimorphism (or the lack thereof). In mammals, the biggest difference seems to exist with the (southern) elephant seal, where the really big males at 9.000 pounds seem to be at least four times as heavy as females (and perhaps ten times as much, as per the article). Among the order of primates, the gorillas seem to have the greatest dimorphism, at about two to one. in weight.

But there are other primates where the dimorphism is close to nonexistent. Granted, all are much smaller than we and our nearest cousins, in descending order chimpanzees / bonobos, gorillas, Orang-Utans and gibbons (all tailless primates). So, hypothesis, if the Dwarven women were difficult to tell from the men (something PJ made a "point" of in the TTT EE), perhaps it was even more difficult with the Orcs. So from the first battles the Orcs appeared in, these Orc forces were co-ed armies? In pack / pride carnivore "societies", the lighter females were very often the better, faster hunters. In extreme cases, they "only" needed the (much, in the case of lions) heavier males to take down big prey which the females had already brought to bay.

But if daddy and mommy (indistinguishable for their enemies?) are both involved in warfare which often led to horrendous losses - what about the kids? First guess (mine, anyway) would tend towards a fairly "developed" day-care system. Immediately, the question arises in my mind: "developed" in what sense? By JRRT's writings to produce malcontent, murderous, suicidal if necessary lunatics …


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## Ron Simpson (Jul 1, 2020)

Elthir said:


> We also never get any scenes of Orcs and Men . . . erm . . . "making" Half-orcs . . . or "Halorcs" as no one calls them.


... and thank goodness we do not ! That visual would make the hardiest elf upchuck his lembas ! Some things are better left unseen.


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## Matthew Bailey (Jul 1, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Tolkien later changed his mind, and decided orcs were bred from Men -- probably for some of the reasons you mentioned.



Not quite...

He “changed his mind” on this subject no fewer than a half-dozen times.

The Essay from _*The History of Middle-earth, Vol. X: Morgoth’s Ring*_: _Orcs_, muses about their origins, but he never settles/settled upon a definitive “solution” to his predicament.

As is noted in _*Letters*_, and in the above mentioned Essay from _*HoM-e, X*_, is that he could not imagine Melkor/Morgoth as having done something so “Evil.” In having gone through a great many of his assorted “essays” at the Bodleian Library in the Early-1980s just as Christopher Tolkien was beginning to collect them to organize for the creation of the works published after _*The Silmarillion*_, I discovered a great many cases where Tolkien balked at a solution to a “problem” in Middle-earth’s Metaphysics, Theology, Ontology, Teleology, etc., simply because he was uncomfortable with “Thinking like Satan” (his words).

Which frames the point regarding his inability to decide how the Orcs “came to be,” as he was recoiling from a thought he explored regarding their creation which he considered to be “Too Evil to contemplate” (“Evil” with a Capital-E). Yet Satan/Morgoth would have absolutely no compunction against such actions. He’s freaking “Satan,” or the ”Existence of Evil-Incarnate” within Middle-earth. He’s not going to worry too terribly about violating some unspoken moral or ethical “norm” of Middle-earth.

He also noticed that Orcs could not be “Men” (Humans) due to their existing thousands of years prior to the awakening of “Mankind” in Hildórien. He had already commented in the section of *HoM-e, V: X *after the Essay _Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth_ that the “Original Sin of Humanity” was not nearly distant-enough in the Past for Humanity given the then given length of the _First Age_, which would have barely allowed for two generations between the Edain and others of the _Faithful_ who fled Hildórien after the “Fall of Humanity” to Morgothism in the first Century after their awakening. He felt that the _First Age_ of Middle-earth needed to be lengthened by at least 2,000 to 3,000 Years in order to make it effectively the same length of time as the following Two Ages, as well as allowing for sufficient time for many events he identified in his accounts of the _First Age_ having 

In looking at the different conceptions of Orcs that Tolkien hit upon, he did admit to their being _*at least *_two separate types; one of which was derived from minor Maiar, which Tolkien had labeled as Boldoeg Orcs. These Orcs were Fallen/Corrupted Minor Maiar, and other “Spirits,” who had permanently taken on the “Clothing/Flesh” of an Orc. The _other type of Orc _that Tolkien thus identified was “All other Orcs.”

But really... There is no reason why ALL of the different forms of “Orc” cannot exist within Middle-earth. These amount to:

• Minor Maiar or Spirits.
• Automatons who only move/act when Morgoth “Wills” them to do so (Much like a Golem).
• Intelligent Beasts who, like the Ravens near Erebor or the Eagles of Manwë, are capable of Speech of some kind, and of having some kind of “understanding” of that Speech.
• Corrupted/Debased/Perversions of Elves.
• Corrupted/Debased/Perversions of Humanity.
• Corrupted/Debased/Perversions of BOTH Elves/Humanity.

None of these are mutually exclusive, and they can account for many distinctions we see in Tolkien’s works where some sort of Ontological or Metaphysical difference exists between the different groups of Orcs we see.

But Tolkien’s Catholic Faith prevented him from accepting a great-many of these solutions, as they too-closely embodied very real Heresies to Catholicism, making it especially difficult for Tolkien to tolerate their existence within Middle-earth (this is technically a problem that has afflicted Catholicism since the 4th Century CE, when these Heresies first began to be seen, identified, and labeled as such). And Middle-earth supposedly being the _Perfect Realization of Catholic Creation_, would struggle to remain-so with applying these Metaphysical Solutions to the various problems that arise.

This is because Catholicism itself has these issues remaining unresolved, due to each of the issues necessarily leading back to the same Heresies with any possible solution that can exist.

But, given the Flexibility of Catholicism, I think adopting these Solutions as Contingent upon a future revisiting of the relevant issues in order to bring Catholicism yet again up to our Contemporary Understanding of the Universe is the best possible solution that can exist.

As for “Female Orcs...”

As I likely already pointed out... They exist for those Orcs where a Female Orc is needed. For the instances where a Female Orc isn’t needed, it’s likely they don’t exist for such Orcs.

MB


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## Elthir (Jul 1, 2020)

Christopher Tolkien, commentary, MR, MT Text X:

*"This then, as it may appear, was my father's final view of the question: Orcs were bred from Men, and if "the conception in mind of the Orcs may go far back into the night of Melkor's thought" it was Sauron who, during the ages of Melkor's captivity in Aman, brought into being the black armies that were available to his Master when he returned."*

Of course Christopher Tolkien adds . . .

*"But, as always, it is not quite so simple. Accompanying one copy of the typescript . . ."*

. . . and he next points to two late notes which only *might* cast doubt on the idea. For myself, neither of these later notes cast enough measure of doubt on the idea, even if "it's possible" is in play. That said, what Tolkien might have landed on, versus what I think he might have published, are (again for me) two different questions.

Anyway the first note has to do with a seeming glitch in chronology compared to text X. Without going into Tolkien's altering of the time of the Awakening of Men (pushing it back), in any case, the problematic sentence _hails from a rough draft_ for a passage in the late note in question -- a sentence that does* not* appear in the revised note.

Also, this first late note shows Tolkien picking up on a point from Text X (orcs from Maiar and Men) and delving into it. I would naturally think then, that the main idea in text X is still in play, but Tolkien, perhaps even accidentally, states something here that appears to contradict text X -- yet as noted,* he then revises it, which in any event, results in agreement with text X.*

In other words:

____________________

Text X (Orcs from Maiar and Men): After his return from Aman, Morgoth has large numbers of Orcs from Men.

Two later notes:

*A)* Note one -- *rough draft*: seemingly before and after Morgoth returns from Aman, he has great numbers of Orcs -- again, keeping in mind this is Tolkien picking up on a point in text X, Orcs from Maiar and Men.

Note one: Tolkien revises the draft, meaning the late note is now in step with text X with respect to chronology. JRRT could have done this revision very quickly, and he could have been thinking that the revised time of the Awakening of Men allowed for this "before" remark, but changed his mind. The timing of the Awakening of Men was still up for revision in any case.

And granted it's possible that Tolkien had altered his opinion and added Elves to the mix here, for instance, allowing for great numbers "before" . . . but I find this unlikely. Tolkien adds Elves to text X at this point? And if so, doesn't state this directly? The main thrust for the later note deals with Orcs possibly* seeming* to be mere puppets, while rather they were "absorbed" orcs, not puppets.

*B)* The second late note has to do with the spelling of or*k* -- and noting that Tolkien said he would spell the word as or*k* back in text IX need not mean Tolkien was reverting _to the ideas_ put forth in text IX (not that I'm saying Christopher Tolkien necessarily thinks his father was reverting back to the ideas expressed in text IX, but in any case the note exists and is published here for readers to know about and muse upon).

____________________

*Add to this* the late note (author's note, note 7 if I recall correctly) to _The Druedain_ in _Unfinished Tales_ (yes, an Eldarin perspective on the mannish origin of Orcs, but compare this to the earlier idea from the Wise of Eressea) and in my opinion, the case for thinking that Tolkien landed on orcs hailing from Maiar and Men is pretty good, or at least seems a reasonable argument given the texts from HOME and UT.

🐾


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## Just Another Hobbit (Jul 1, 2020)

I'm reading _The Silmarillion _rn, and on page 50 (of my edition), Tolkien wrote, "For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar...". The Children of Ilúvatar are of course elves and men, so if Orcs are to reproduce as us humans do, then there must be Orc women. So while I'm not familiar with all of Tolkien's letters and other works concerning the creation of orcs, I'm going to follow the teachings presented in _The Simlarillion_.

But since you brought up the question of cloning... the Catholic Church holds that human cloning is intrinsically evil (https://www.catholic.com/qa/why-is-human-cloning-wrong) but that a human clone would have a soul (https://www.catholic.com/qa/would-a-human-clone-have-a-soul). This is all off the original topic however

So as for all of the biological discussion happening in the above posts, I think it's important to remember that this _is_ in fact a fictitious world we are discussing! We have giant eagles, moving trees, and magic rings... so while it is interesting to discuss the biological origins of orcs, I'm not going to lose any sleep trying to figure it out


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## rollinstoned (Jul 1, 2020)

Orc women have to exist... or how would male orcs exist....?


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## Elthir (Jul 2, 2020)

In the first post in this thread, RL already knew about Tolkien's letter, which basically says orc women exist (which is not surprising to me given the quote from_ The Silmarillion_ already provided in the thread). Just to stamp that letter again, on page three.

*"There must have been orc-women. But in stories that seldom if ever see the Orcs except as soldiers of armies in the service of the evil lords we naturally would not learn much about their lives. Not much was known" **JRRT*

Thus, to bring it back to the original question, RL asked whether or not orc-women are referred to in the canonical or non-canonical works.


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