# Gandalf (the White's) last stand...



## Maeglin (Jan 1, 2004)

I'm just wondering if at the last the battle was hopeless, and Sauron's victory was near, would Gandalf have revealed the true power that was in him as a Maia and made one of the greatest stands in Middle-earth? If he knew he was going to die (again), would he whip out every trick and power he had so as to kill a few thousand orcs and other servants of Sauron, even though it would be betraying his oath not to reveal himself in his power while in Middle-earth?


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## BlackCaptain (Jan 1, 2004)

Maybe we've gota look at it from the whole big Silmarilliac stand point...

I mean the Vala sent the Istari sort of as a last hope for the people of Middle Earth, and if they fail then they fail... The Noldor forsook the Valar when they went back to Middle Earth, so the Valar rightfully shouldnt really care about it anymore.

I dont think that any oath that a Maia gave to the Valar could be broken all to easily, but this question is way too "what if" for me... I dont know enough about that oath or the end of Arda and stuff to really give a more accurate idea... hehe.


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## Celebthôl (Jan 1, 2004)

Way i see it is no he wouldnt, because he was forbidden to and he was the only Istari member to actaully do what he was supposed to, and if it would come down to that, why didnt he just put forth all his power to begin with? It makes no sense that he would wander blindly into that battle kill a few thousand Orcs then die, what would it serve to do?


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## Starbrow (Jan 1, 2004)

I think Gandalf would have used what power he had, including sacrificing himself, to kill as many of the enemy as he can.

In The Hobbit when the goblins and the wolves have everyone trapped in the trees, Gandalf intends to do something like that.

"Then Gandalf climbed to the top of his tree. The sudden splendour flashed from his wand like lightning, as he got ready to spring down from on high right among the spears of the goblins. That would have been the end of him, though he would probably have killed many of them as he came hurtling down like a thunderbolt."


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## Inderjit S (Jan 2, 2004)

He may have revealed or exhibited fully his 'true' power though such actions may have been futile. Gandalf was humble and not one to exhibit his powers, though it if say, he could hold off the Orks long enough as to ensure the escape of some of the soldiers then he may have sacrificed himself. (These soldiers could have fled to Cair Andros or Minas Tirith or Dunharrow and warned the people there and they could have fled to 'secret places'. Gandalf tells Denethor that if _some_ people live to survive in some hidden valley then he would have achieved something at least. 

It all depends on the greater good that would come as a result of any sacrifice he made.


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## Flammifer (Jan 2, 2004)

> I'm just wondering if at the last the battle was hopeless, and Sauron's victory was near, would Gandalf have revealed the true power that was in him as a Maia and made one of the greatest stands in Middle-earth? If he knew he was going to die (again), would he whip out every trick and power he had so as to kill a few thousand orcs and other servants of Sauron, even though it would be betraying his oath not to reveal himself in his power while in Middle-earth?



Yeah, but the battle _wasn't_ hopeless. Though the Captains of the West should die, the battle might not be in vain. It wouldn't matter how many Orcs they killed, as long as Sauron's gaze was fixed on them. So Gandalf could kill one Orc or kill one thousand Orcs. It wouldn't make a difference, so long as the gaze of the Eye was fixed on the battle at the Black Gate. And if Gandalf could manage to stay true to the commands of the Valar as well, then he might as well have! 

As Gandalf says in the Last Debate,



> We must make ourselves bait, though his [Sauron's] jaws should close on us...
> 
> ...We must walk open-eyed into a trap, with courage, but small hope for ourselves. For, my lords, it may well prove that we ourselves shall perish utterly in a black battle far from the living lands; so that even if Barad-dur be thrown down, we shall not live to see a new age. But this, I deem, is our duty. And better so than to perish nonetheless - as we surely shall, if we sit here - and know as we die that no new age shall be.


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## Lantarion (Jan 2, 2004)

The Istari were not allowed to show their true powers *to dominate the wills of others*, as far as I recall.. Nothing wrong with just showing their powers (after all gandalf uses his magics several times in the LotR, and not just making fire).


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## Inderjit S (Jan 2, 2004)

Indeed, his fire blast that disentegrated Legolas's arrow, the stab of white light aimed at the Nazgul to rescue Faramir's company, him de-swording Denethor and de-axing Gimli.


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## Telëlambe (Jun 16, 2005)

Gandalf and the other istari were put there to ralley the hearts of men to their own (the free peoples serving against the dark powers) defence and must not dominate wills or release there full power. Aggreed? 
However if it was Gandalf's last stand, i would assume all the free peoples would have been wiped out or enslaved with absolutly no hope: men, elves, dwarves, ents and hobbits. To me this would seem to make the oath taken by the istari null and void, and while Gandalf (or olorin at the time) said he feared sauron, i would like to think his rage and anger from the destrucion of all that was good and green in middle earth, which he loved, would drive him to take on Sauron head on, with all his possible raw power as a miar spirit. 
However maybe not, i am just speculating and think that it would be so cool that he might do that in the very end. 

Where is Grond! he might know.


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## Alatar (Jun 16, 2005)

That would be good. What a finish, if gollum din not fall into Mt Doom, and the captains were slain one by one...
...And Aragorn fell to a troll blade, and Eomir was burried under many orcs,and Gandalf looked upon the death around him, and knew that there best hope was to delay the enemy. The wizard drew himself up to his full height, and Gandalf the wjite was uncloaked. A white light fell from the sky and the orcs cowed upon the ground, and a flame seemed to radiant around him, and those that despaired found corage in the fact that fleeing, the could save some few men. As the retreat rode away from the black gate, and gandalf stood alone on the slag hill, and southerns leaped over the lip of the hill, Gandalf let his staff fall, breaking on the floor, and the light stoped and all that was left was a white robed man, alone against the host of Mordor.

Well, that could happen. I think that if he knew that the only hope was to distarct the host, he would use his magic to draw all gase on him while the men retreated.


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## ingolmo (Jun 20, 2005)

I don't think that Gandalf would show all his powers, he was forbidden not to do so by the Valar, and when the Valar forbid you to do something, and if you're not a Numenorean king or Feanor, you don't do it. I think Gandalf would have accepted defeat, though he would be heartbroken.


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## Alatar (Jun 20, 2005)

I think he gave it his all agenist the balrog, as it was the only way to save frodo and Co.


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## Hammersmith (Jun 20, 2005)

I think that he may have been able to stand strong enough against the hordes of Mordor that only the coming forth of the Nazgul or the Mouth or Sauron himself could defeat him. If Frodo had failed, for whatever reason, I think Middle Earth's fate would revolve around a sudden battle between Gandalf and whatever great captain could be raised against him.


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## Alatar (Jun 20, 2005)

Gandalf is good, but not that good, Gandalf might be able to stun the hosts of mordor, but never would he defeat them, a stray arrow would kill him.
I am always currious to know what sauron thought when,at last, seeing Gandalfs plan.
He is watching his enemies dying, when sombody claims the ring for their own, he looks, and there two hobbits, and gollum, fighting on the cracks of doom, he relises what has happend, why they made the war on the black gate, and then, he is defeated.


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## Thorondor_ (Jun 20, 2005)

I say he would kick orc behinds like there is no tommorow. Does anyone think he didn't use all his might to fight the balrog at Moria?


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## Wraithguard (Jun 20, 2005)

ingolmo said:


> and when the Valar forbid you to do something, and if you're not a Numenorean king or Feanor, you don't do it.


 
Ha! Poor Ar-Pharazôn. I would say that as Gandalf the Grey he gave it his all to kill the Balrog, but as Gandalf the White he has not shown the full extent of his power. I would have to say that in a dire situation that would endanger Middle-Earth and its inhaibtants Gandalf would deliberatly cast aside his oath and unveil the extent of his might and come full circle against the evil of Mordor. However that is just my feeble opinion.


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## Hammersmith (Jun 20, 2005)

Alatar said:


> Gandalf is good, but not that good, Gandalf might be able to stun the hosts of mordor, but never would he defeat them, a stray arrow would kill him.
> I am always currious to know what sauron thought when,at last, seeing Gandalfs plan.
> He is watching his enemies dying, when sombody claims the ring for their own, he looks, and there two hobbits, and gollum, fighting on the cracks of doom, he relises what has happend, why they made the war on the black gate, and then, he is defeated.


I assume you're talking about his near-death at the hands of goblins in The Hobbit? Pish tush, dear fellow. I consider that scrap of reference to Gandalf's powers to be as un-canon as much of The Hobbit is. It doesn't match at all with the rest of LOTR. I can see Gandalf holding entire armies at bay - to his own doom and the doom of his friends, but as a last stand effort.
I suppose I haven't backed that up very well at all, but honestly! This chap took down a Balrog! There was a reason why the Witch King and his gang fled Gandalf's approach. I just can't see his powers exhausted so easily.


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## ingolmo (Jun 21, 2005)

Who says that he used all his powers against the Balrog? As long as I know, there's no proof.


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## Wraithguard (Jun 21, 2005)

ingolmo said:


> Who says that he used all his powers against the Balrog? As long as I know, there's no proof.


 
No one ever will. Pity that. I would say he had held nothing back as the Grey being that he was so concerned with the lives of the Fellowship that he maybe unintentionally showed his extent of power against the Balrog. While as Gandalf the White he is more focused. Then again these are just the sad ramblings of a Dark Wanderer.


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## Alatar (Jun 21, 2005)

I think that towards the end of the war, the became more unveiled, and when he scattered the nazgul to save farimir, he unveiled himself.


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## Wraithguard (Jun 21, 2005)

Yes, but was that his all?


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## Alatar (Jun 21, 2005)

No, his all would have been walls of fire and white light.
To see this effect, copy a picture of ME on to paint. Click on the eraser button. Level the mountains of shadow.
Well maybe not.


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## Thorondor_ (Jun 21, 2005)

Gandalf also said he has put on quite a show at Wheatertop (light like it has ever seen before, if I remember correctly).


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## Alatar (Jun 21, 2005)

Yup, i reckon he could hold back the army for a while, before being killed, he could do some amazing stuff, like on the hill with the wolves. WHY was that not in the film? Legolas' arrow catching fire as it flew! How could PJ miss that?


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