# Arwen and Aragorn, Beren and Luthien



## HLGStrider (Aug 9, 2002)

> The only think A and A have in common with Beren and Luthien is they were differente races. And in all actuallity, Arwen was les than one-half elf so it wasn't that big of a change there.



Gamil Zirak made this comment arguing against Aragorn and Arwen being a romantic couple... Does anyone have any agreements or disagreemens with this terrible, evil statement against my favorite couple...


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## tasar (Aug 9, 2002)

How do you consider that statement to be evil? And where does Gamil Zirak say that they weren't a romantic couple? He just points out some facts which seem to be quite true. 

Actually the main similarity between the couples that I see is that both of the girls' fathers are very demanding. But even there there are very different circumstances so...(Oh no, I'm babbling again)


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## HLGStrider (Aug 9, 2002)

He said it in several previous posts... Check out the poll "which is more romantic"... Evil in a joking way, of course... you'll notice the 

The only real problem I have was that, if you read the tell of Arwen and Aragorn, Aragorn was forever identifying himself with his ancestor, Beren.

Both were given hard tasks to get the girl of their dreams
Both met the girl in the forest dancing around
Both girls gave up immortality.

So you are on Gamil's side. You don't think they are alike?


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## Confusticated (Aug 9, 2002)

Arwen less than Half Elf? How so?
Each of Elrond's parents were exactly half Elf, correct? So Elrond was truely Half Elf, Arwen's mother was Full Elf..wouldn't this make Arwen 3/4 Elf?
Where am I mistaken?


Okay...here's the Elf percentage as I understand it to be
Beren 0% + Luthian 50% :there child Dior would then be 25%
He married Nimloth 100%...this making Elwing(Elrond's mother) 62.5% Now Tour 0% marries Idril 100% and they have the son Earendil being 50%

Now Elwing 62.5% and Earendil 50% have the son Elrond...who would be 56.25%

Now Celeborn 100% and Galadriel 100% have the daughter Celebrian 100%

Elrong at 56.25% married Celebrian 100%
thus Arwen would be 78.12%


Yeah?...


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## tur-kheleden (Aug 10, 2002)

thank you for clearing that up i was vioding this forum becuase i new it would bug me. regardless that would make there childeren about 35% or less elf.


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## Confusticated (Aug 10, 2002)

Not only that, but I listed Luthian as 50% Elf...but I think she is widely considered a full Elf...I listed her as 50% because her mother is a Maia and not an Elf....though there is probably people on this forum who will straighten me out for doing that. Anyhow if Luthian is Full Elf...that just makes Arwen more so.

But getting back to the real topic here...I think the biggest things that connect Aragorn and Arwen with the Beren Luthian situation is that in both cases an Elf gave up immortality,the other is that for some reason Aragorn and Arwen see it this way. Perhaps because of what is said about Arwen being the likeness of Luthian..


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## tasar (Aug 10, 2002)

They just seem so different to me. The story of Beren and Luthien is so much more tragic and beautiful. There are similarities, yes. Actually, it seems to me, that Tolkien repeats himself all the time in different stories. But although Aragorn is kind of like Beren and Arwen is kind of like Luthien, they are still different, because the action around them is different.


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## Aranaug (Aug 10, 2002)

Well, by genetics Arwen is less than 100% elf in her making. But remember. When the last battle against Melkor/Morgoth had been fought, the half-elven children were permitted to decide whether they would be man or elf. Elrond decided to become an elf and his brother who's name unfortunatley escapes me right now, decided to become man, and was the first Numenorean king. If I remember that right. (For those who don't know, this is in The Silmarillion. So Elrond is by his making half-elf but he has the abilities of a full elf so when making children with another elf they should have full-elven children.

And I have a question, how many generations had passed from the time of Elrond's brother to the time of Aragorn???


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## Lantarion (Aug 10, 2002)

I don't remember; but the name of Elrond's brother was Elros, also known as Tar-Minyatur.


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## Ravenna (Aug 10, 2002)

I think the main similarities are as follows.

Both Luthien and Arwen fell in love with a mortal.

Luthien was reputed to be the most beautiful af all the elves, and in Arwen she appeared to have been born again


> Arwen daughter of Elrond, in whom it was said that the likeness of Luthien had come on earth again.



They shared the same fate, ie giving up their immortality to be with the one they loved.

Apart from Feanor (for a very different reason), they are the only two elves who never went to the halls of Mandos andtherefore were lost to the elves totally.

I don't think that pesonality-wise there is a great deal of similarity, more their situations.


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## Gil-Galad (Aug 10, 2002)

Well I think that in the book Arwen and Aragorn are not so romantic persons as Beren and Luthien.But in PJ's movie I must confess they're so romantic that I like the scene when Arwen refuses her immortal life.


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## Ravenna (Aug 10, 2002)

Possibly they don't seem so romantic in the book because we don't actually see very much of them, unlike Beren and Luthien whose tale is told in much more detail. Read the appendix concerning them, it gives a much more romantic image.


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## Gil-Galad (Aug 10, 2002)

Ravenna,even in the appenedix their story is not so romantic.And I think that it's hard to compare Aragorn/Arwen with Beren/Luthien.Luthien/Beren are much more romantic persons I think.


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## HLGStrider (Aug 11, 2002)

I always wondered if Aragorn and Arwen's children would have pointy ears or not... hmmmm   

Well, I find them to be similar... perhaps just in the general jist of the story, if you will... and also romantic...


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## Chymaera (Aug 11, 2002)

Any time that a boy and a girl get together and cannot consumate their relationship immediatly then the longer they have to wait the more romantic that it is. 

I present my theory now. Ilúvatar gave his childern gifts. Of the lesser known gifts to Man, was that all men would be romantally IRRISISTIBLE attractive to all single elven maids, leaving the maid to be unsatisfied with any other.

Lúthien, Idril Celebrindal, Arwen, and most especially Finduilas Orodreth's daughter, were caught up in this web.


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## Ravenna (Aug 11, 2002)

Gil-galad, I didn't mean that they were more romantic than Beren and Luthien, just that the appendix story was more romantic than what we saw in the book itself.


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## Gil-Galad (Aug 17, 2002)

OK.Ravenna.I think the story in the book wasn't very romantic because of Tolkien.He was quite a conservative person and women weren't big important part of his world.I'm not saying that he hates women or something else,but he belives that they should stay at home and take care for the children(quite stupid in fact)


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## HLGStrider (Aug 17, 2002)

I strongly disagree, Gil. I believe that he was conservative and I believe in many ways this was a good thing, but I don't think he was opposed to women heros... take Eowyn and Luthien...

From reading his Bio I would say Tolkien loved his wife and kids and didn't mind female characters but didn't exactly enjoy delving into the female mind. He prefered talking with people of his own sex. I would call him a man's man or something like that.


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## Gil-Galad (Aug 24, 2002)

HLGStrider,Tolkien prefered to talk with men from the clubs he was visiting,with professors etc....he loved his wife of course.But did she visit such clubs,did she work?I doubt.....she was just Tolkien's wife.Tolkien was just like men who lived in the beginning of 20th century.And most men didn't like much the idea of feminism,especially the conservative persons.
Men from that time thought in a very different way in comparisson with ours.It's a fact.


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## HLGStrider (Aug 24, 2002)

I don't like the idea of feminism either. I plan to stay home when I get married and have children and homeschool them. Better for the kids and better for me.


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## Gil-Galad (Aug 24, 2002)

Well if that's your opinion I have nothing to say,but in my view that won't be real life.Or just I have different ideas about life


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## HLGStrider (Aug 24, 2002)

What's a real life? Going to work when you really want to be with your kids (If you didn't want to be with them there'd be no point to having them) having a filthy home cause you aren't home to take care of it? I plan to keep writing, but I think that in a family the children should be the first concern, and I plan to care for mine.

Of course, you are male. Different hormones...


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## Gil-Galad (Aug 24, 2002)

of course you should take care for the kids,but your husbond would have lots of difficulties cause he will be the only one who is working.Well if he works for an enormous amount of money there's no problem,but HLGStrider what will you do when the kids grow up?
you won't have any aim .....


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## Gil-Galad (Aug 24, 2002)

of course you should take care for the kids,but your husbond would have lots of difficulties cause he will be the only one who is working.Well if he works for an enormous amount of money there's no problem,but HLGStrider what will you do when the kids grow up?
you won't have any aim .....


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## HLGStrider (Aug 24, 2002)

Writing. 

Managing a household is a lot bigger job than you might think, Gil. Besides, I have about fifty different hobbies!!! Men retire. Women can too. 

Also my dad doesn't make that much, he delivers bread for a living... not exactly a white collar job, and my mom still stays home and homeschools me and my three siblings. We don't live extravagantly, but I know a lot of people who have three kids and one person works just to pay of child care. It makes no sense to work if you have to pay half your money to people to care for your kids while you do so.


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## Gil-Galad (Aug 24, 2002)

here in my country is different.And my personal view is that "man" should "live" as better as he can.There is a phrase from a bulgarian writer-Pavel Vejinov and he says:
"Man comes from nothing,lives and then becomes nothing"
So "to live" means to do something which other will remember.Means that man should do something important his entire life.Just to do something.


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## Gil-Galad (Aug 24, 2002)

here in my country is different.And my personal view is that "man" should "live" as better as he can.There is a phrase from a bulgarian writer-Pavel Vejinov and he says:
"Man comes from nothing,lives and then becomes nothing"
So "to live" means to do something which other will remember.Means that man should do something important his entire life.Just to do something.


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## HLGStrider (Aug 24, 2002)

In my country a man works towards a goal. That goal can be a restful retirement or it can be a certain amount of success in life. Mine is to have healthy, well adjusted children and then grandchildren, and to be published someday... 

A man or woman is what they make of themselves. Working is important, but one can't work their whole life. Eventually ones body gives out. I'm fine with people keeping on working, but I wish to enjoy my later years.


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## Gil-Galad (Aug 24, 2002)

do you see you want to do something.You don't want to come from nothing,to live and then to become nothing again.you want to be remembered


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## HLGStrider (Aug 24, 2002)

I'm saying I don't think that raising children is doing nothing. In fact there are few better ways to be remembered than to be a good mother... other than commiting the crime of the century. 

Book writing is just something I do almost compulsively. I couldn't stop writing even if I didn't have anything to write about or would never become good enough to be published.


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## Gil-Galad (Aug 24, 2002)

So we should expect from you to become a famous writer?I promise I"ll reasd everythig you publish,I'm seriuos.


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## HLGStrider (Aug 24, 2002)

I'm working on it..

That's one of the reasons I plan to write under H.L.G. Strider as well as use it on here...
Imagine, one day Grond or you or Arathin will be walking by a book store and they see a book with HLGStrider on the cover... They think "Isn't that that person on the Tolkienforum...?" 

Five to one they'll at least pick it up... a bit opportunistic of me, I know, but it makes good economic sense. Too bad I can't run for office under HLGStrider... Just kidding


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## Gil-Galad (Aug 24, 2002)

I hope you will manage to become famous,but I won't bue your book.It will be a present for me from you   !!!!


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## Gil-Galad (Aug 24, 2002)

I hope you will manage to become famous,but I won't bue your book.It will be a present for me from you   !!!!


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## FREEDOM! (Aug 24, 2002)

Arwen is HOT, at least Liv Tyler is. And Aragorn is cool so i think that they belong together cause hes the man.


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## Gil-Galad (Aug 24, 2002)

Definitely Viggo is the man but I'm not sure whether Lyv is......
But on the whole we cannot compare the characters from the book as PJ's characters.Those from the movie are made so that to be liked from everyone......


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## Precious (Aug 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> *
> 
> Gamil Zirak made this comment arguing against Aragorn and Arwen being a romantic couple... Does anyone have any agreements or disagreemens with this terrible, evil statement against my favorite couple...
> ...


  WTF!!


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## HLGStrider (Aug 25, 2002)

Check out the Who is More Romantic poll, Precious. You'll see. He is a supporter of Eowyn and Faramir. I vote for Aragorn and Arwen.


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## Precious (Aug 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> *Check out the Who is More Romantic poll, Precious. You'll see. He is a supporter of Eowyn and Faramir. I vote for Aragorn and Arwen. *


Thanks!


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## HLGStrider (Aug 25, 2002)

Hopefully you're on my side and I didn't just recruit for the Eowyn Faramir or Sam and Rosie parties...


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## Aulë (Sep 29, 2003)

> _LotR Appendices: Appdx A (V)_
> 'The next day at the hour of sunset Aragorn walked alone in we woods, and his heart was high within him; and he sang, for he was full of hope and the world was fair. And suddenly even as he sang he saw a maiden walking on a greensward among the white stems of the birches; and he halted amazed, thinking that he had strayed into a dream, or else that he had received the gift of the Elf-minstrels, who can make the things of which they sing appear before the eyes of those that listen.
> 'For Aragorn had been singing a part of the Lay of Lúthien which tells of the meeting of Lúthien and Beren in the forest of Neldoreth. And behold! there Lúthien walked before his eyes in Rivendell, clad in a mantle of silver and blue, fair as the twilight in Elven-home; her dark hair strayed in a sudden wind, and her brows were bound with gems like stars.
> 'For a moment Aragorn gazed in silence, but fearing that she would pass away and never be seen again, he called to her crying, _Tinúviel, Tinúviel!_ even as Beren had done in the Elder Days long ago.
> ...


I just love that passage. So ironic in that Aragorn was singing the Lay of Lúthien when he met Arwen.
But the thing that I never understood was that Arwen predicted that she would fall in love with a mortal. Did she forsee her love of Aragorn?


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## HLGStrider (Sep 29, 2003)

I think she foresaw, dimly, that she would love a mortal, but not directly Aragorn. At least at that time Aragorn was not considerable. He was 20. Basically a kid. She was a couple thousand years old. She might've thought he was "cute" and found his statements flattering, but she wouldn't have thought of him seriously as a future mate. 

Perhaps when rumors got to her of his feelings for her-- which they might've, I imagine her being perceptive and her father's feelings towards Aragorn changed a little after Aragorn's heart became plain, she might've seen it-- she would've paused for a moment, knowing of his heiritage and that he was an attractive, promising youth, but it would've only been for a minute. It was only seeing him in his maturity that brought about love. . .


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