# The Battle of...Armies??



## Thorin (Aug 12, 2008)

As I was re-reading The Hobbit (yes, I broke down before the movie), I noticed something interesting.

The 5 armies at the battle at the end were Elves, Dwarves, Men, Goblins and Wargs.

Animals as an army? Yes, apparently. 

So my question is:

..why weren't the Eagles considered one of the armies?

They were in a flock (just like the wargs were probably in packs).They were animals and they fought (really, they saved the day).

Any theories?


----------



## Illuin (Aug 12, 2008)

Very good observation. My only “wild” guess is that Tolkien was a very religious man, and counting the Eagles as one of the armies would have meant dealing with the evil number *SIX . *


----------



## Bucky (Aug 13, 2008)

The 5 armies at the battle at the end were Elves, Dwarves, Men, Goblins and Wargs.

*They were? I don't see how you could count the Wargs as a seperate army from the Goblins as they mainly served the same purpose for the Goblins as horses would for Men or Elves riding on them - Granted they also ate a few enemies too..... 

But, the Goblins & Wargs came down together, in one force. If you're counting them seperately, then what about the bats that flew above the Goblins & Wargs?
SEVEN Armies?

I always took it for granted that the Five Armies are The Dwarves, Elves, Men, Goblins (with their Wargs) & Eagles, which are the 5 seperate millitary units that arrived at the battle.*


----------



## baragund (Aug 13, 2008)

One could distinguish wargs from horses or other animals in that they were sentient. Remember when they "treed" Bilbo, Gandalf and the dwarves, and Gandalf could translate their spoken language?

But we still have the question of the eagles...

I haven't read the book in a long time but what about numbers? My recollection is there were a great number of wargs but how many eagles were involved? Was it in numbers one could consider an army or was it a stragegic few?


----------



## YayGollum (Aug 13, 2008)

I am pretty much the same as the baragund person, in this case. Dwarves, humans, elves, Orcs, and Wargs. Except that I was all ready to make a large deal about humans thinking the Wargs mere horses, which is plenty uncool for sentience. And I would agree with the point of view that there probably just weren't enough eagles to count them as an army. Or I could just point out that they were barely in the fight long enough for them to get counted as part of the greater Battle Of Five Armies That Were Totally There Long Enough To Be Counted As Major Players. When a deus ex machina shows up to save the day, you don't think of it as something that was a part of the fight. It's the unstoppable conclusion. I wouldn't count Ulmo as an army, if he flooded the Orc camp. 

Also, the bats, while helpful, don't get to count. That's just craziness. They're just animals.


----------



## HLGStrider (Aug 13, 2008)

The eagles did not start the battle but came in to save the day at the last minute. Possibly the battle was named by onlookers before their entry. As in, Oh my gosh, look over there, five armies, have you ever seen such a thing? Still, I had always considered them, and not the wargs, the fifth army. Wargs being used as mounts by Goblins seemed to make them as a part of that force. I don't think they were acting independently. 

That said, my own cheat guide Tolkien companion does list the Worgs and not the Eagles as the fifth army. Let me see if I can find anything in a quick search of the Hobbit text. 

At the beginning of the story of the battle we have this

"So began a battle that none had expected; and it was called the Battle of Five armies, and it was very terrible. Upon one side were the Goblins and Wild Wolves and upon the other were Elves and Men and Dwarves." 


This, I'm guessing, is what is being referenced. You could argue that Tolkien simply wasn't listing the Eagles at this point to avoid ruining the surprise ending. That's from a writing point of view. From a reading point of view, the battle had been going on for quite a while before the Eagles showed up and while they did turn the tide for the majority of the battle they simply weren't there.


----------



## YayGollum (Aug 13, 2008)

Just because some Orcs chose to ride some Wargs and some Wargs allowed some Orcs to hang on doesn't make them an entirely unified force. They had their separate leaders and views, just like the other three armies. If the Dwarves could get over their aversion to elves, and the elves made good mounts, I don't see why a few of them wouldn't have teamed up, and nobody would even think of not considering the two forces to be separate.


----------



## HLGStrider (Aug 13, 2008)

Excuse me while I go bang my head against the wall until the image of dwarves riding elves goes away.


----------



## Thorin (Aug 13, 2008)

Yay Gollum, as LG pointed out, Tolkien makes it clear that it was 3 against 2 in the battle, the 2 being both wargs and goblins.

What Tolkien should have done would have been to summarize the battle after the fact, "And forever on this was known as the battle of the 6 armies..."

If he had PJ to guide him along, what a better story teller he would have been....


----------



## Turgon (Aug 13, 2008)

I am inclined to agree with Yay - the Wargs were entirely sentient beings in The Hobbit - as is witnessed in the clash with them outside of the Goblin's Backdoor. The eagles on the other hand were more of a special forces (Special Air Service in this case) unit that popped up at the end to save the day - I've never once considered them classed one of the 'armies' present.


----------



## Bucky (Aug 13, 2008)

Just because some Orcs chose to ride some Wargs and some Wargs allowed some Orcs to hang on doesn't make them an entirely unified force. They had their separate leaders and views, just like the other three armies. 

*Well, in this case, Gandalf says "Bolg of the North is coming.", not "Bolg of the North & an army of Wargs with him is coming."

Also: "They ride upon wolves & Wargs are in their train."

That sounds like part of the same army to me in this case.

All the talk afterwards is how the Goblins got together in the Misty Mountains & came down from Gundabad, etc., never a mention about the Wargs, & how the Eagles saw the Goblins gathering & came down......

Therefore adding to the speculation (note speculation) that the Goblins & Eagles are the 4th & 5th armies.

BTW: Being there at the beginning of the Battle of Five Armies - is just a phrase, I don't think it's a technical requirement that the Eagles had to be there at the start to qualify.

Final note: Just found it:

The Hobbit says: 'So began...... the Battle of Five Armies, and it was very terrible. On the one side were the Goblins & the Wild Wolves, & upon the other were Elves & Men & Dwarves.

Case closed.
I stand corrected - by myself. *


----------



## Thorin (Aug 14, 2008)

This is what I was just saying a few posts back. HLG already gave this quote and it seemed it was ignored for more speculation. I figured it was a given that the wargs were included in the 5 armies. I'm not sure why it went off on the tangent that they may not have been.

In my opinion, the only criteria that the Eagles shouldn't have been considered an army is that they weren't there from the beginning. Other than that, I think they did just as much if not more in the battle and turning the tide than the other armies which should at least have qualified them.


----------



## Bucky (Aug 14, 2008)

Quote: This is what I was just saying a few posts back. HLG already gave this quote and it seemed it was ignored for more speculation. I figured it was a given that the wargs were included in the 5 armies. I'm not sure why it went off on the tangent that they may not have been.

I must admit I skipped it because it was in HGL's 'cheat guide' source & I'm not much on secondary sources. For example, on recently scanning Robert Foster's Guide to Middle-Earth, I found I knew as much about everything he wrote about (probably might've included more in some cases, lol) excepting the obscure stuff like the name of some hillock or something like that, which I wouldn't need to look up because I'd be reading the name of that hillock right next to where it apopears in the text of TLOR, The Hobbit or The Silm, ya know?

Finally, Thorin, I didn't add a single post of speculation after HGL posted that quote - others did. I went right to the source, The Hobbit & found the answer. I just simply added it at the end of my speculative post.....

If you hate speculative posts, DO NOT go near theoneringdotnet! 

All they do there is twist Tolkien's words to fit their own interpretations & God forbid if you call them on it.


----------



## HLGStrider (Aug 14, 2008)

> Let me see if I can find anything in a quick search of the Hobbit text.
> 
> At the beginning of the story of the battle we have this
> 
> "So began a battle that none had expected; and it was called the Battle of Five armies, and it was very terrible. Upon one side were the Goblins and Wild Wolves and upon the other were Elves and Men and Dwarves."



Actually, Bucky, so did I, if you re-read my post. I think that's what Thorin is trying to point out.


----------



## Persephone (Aug 14, 2008)

The Eagles were a great help. But what about BEORN? He's so huge he's an army all by himself. Doesn't he count, too?

I think the battle was strictly between: 

The Goblins (the wargs were like their vehicles so, cannot be considered as a separate army), The Dwarves, The Humans, The Elves, and THE EAGLES!

So that's my take on the story.


----------



## Durin's Bane (Aug 15, 2008)

Narya said:


> The Eagles were a great help. But what about BEORN? He's so huge he's an army all by himself. Doesn't he count, too?


I was just going to say that! If you count the eagles as an army because they rush in and save the day, why not count Beorn as an army- he did the same thing?
Further more, i don't see why all of you view wargs as mere mounts? Enormous wolves with teeth as long as daggers and all they do is carry goblins around? You really think they didn't fight?
I've always imagined the goblin-warg combo as a warg slaughtering all in view and a goblin sight-seeing on his back!


----------



## Persephone (Aug 15, 2008)

The Wargs were the goblins' horses! They got into that war because of the Goblins (and partially because Gandalf set some of them on fire before), but still, it was more because of the Goblins.

I think we can count the goblin-warg as a combo so they are counted as one only.


----------



## YayGollum (Aug 15, 2008)

Hey. *points at earlier posts* Myself and the baragund and Turgon people totally pointed out Wargish sentience and right to be called their own army. Anyways, Narya lady, you call the Wargs part of the Goblin army because some Goblins asked them to come along? Shouldn't there just be one army, since everyone's there because of the Dwarves? And I read little about the Wargish generals deciding to allow the Goblin generals to order their troops about. Separate armies have worked together before. The only difference with the Wargish army is that it's occasionally employed as half of a cavalry. Yay for a specializations? Also, yes, Yay Beorn. Am I evil for thinking of the other skin-changers as superly cool for just ignoring the whole thing?


----------



## Durin's Bane (Aug 15, 2008)

I'd say the wargs go to war because Gandalf set some of them on fire (and partially because of the goblins) and that Goblins are Wargs' Backpacks!
And my point is that the warg is jumping and smashing and the goblin is sight-seeing until separate, then *they both fight*. And that's what you are failing to see! The wargs fight as well! That's why they are counted as the fifth army!


----------



## YayGollum (Aug 15, 2008)

You were just writing at the crazy people who don't think of Wargs as their own army, though, yes? Because, ah, I totally didn't think of them as only helping as mounts. I even wrote at one point up in this thread about only some Orcs riding on some Wargs. I didn't think that the other Wargs were just dead weight. Besides the Wargs looking like hyenas in those recent films, I was also saddened that they didn't seem especially intelligent. Mayhaps some creepy Wargish being yipped and growled between a few during the scene. Mayhaps a dying Warg on top of Gimli giving himself a really melodramatic death scene.  

Anyways, yeah, all of you Warg-haters! They're totally their own army!


----------



## Firawyn (Aug 16, 2008)

Hummm, interesting topic. 

Now here's the question I'm going to ask: Who were the onlookers that named it the Battle of Five Armies? If it was "good guys", I imagine they were counting Wargs and Orcs as one unit, because to them, Wargs were hardly their own race. However, if it was "bad guys", then they would not have counted the eagles...for some reason...*shrug*


----------



## HLGStrider (Aug 16, 2008)

It would more likely be victors recording the war. I doubt there was much communication between the Goblins and the men and since the Hobbit is written squarely from the good side of view, there is no way to tell what the bad labeled the fight. Could've been 'The Battle of Five Pomegranates" for all we know. 

Anyway, I doubt there were actually bystanders in that there were people with picnic baskets along the side of the battlefield. More like people back home recording what the fighters said or rumors coming in from folk watching at a great distance. 

As has been pointed out, we don't know exactly how the Wargs fought. We can only speculate, as no good details are given. Perhaps they moved within the battle in a way that would make them obviously a separate force.


----------



## Firawyn (Aug 16, 2008)

I am always amused at how we talk about these things like it's actually real history...

One could speculate that Wargs were no different than well trained horses. In the lands of Rohan, a Knight's Horse was more than just a beast - and could be seen as a separate force in the chaos of a battle. A frightened horse without a Rider will still stampede someone threatening it or its owner, even in this world. Do some research on the Crusades and you'll see what I mean.


----------



## YayGollum (Aug 16, 2008)

The Battle Of Five Armies could have just been the evil thief Bilbo Baggin's name for it, since the entire rest of the book was written by him. But then, it could have been thought up by anybody. The evil thief Bilbo Baggins kept in contact with some of the people from that part of the world. The quote already given seems to prove that the Five Armies are Dwarves, humans, elves, Goblins, and Wargs. Anybody who knew much about the Wargs or dealt with goblins who dealt with them could have easily found out that the Wargs were sentient, had their own language and culture and hierarchies and such. Just because some of them were used as mounts at least this one time doesn't mean that they didn't attack people without any help from pathetic goblins. So they don't have hands, and they run on four legs. So what? Via intelligence, they could still get plenty accomplished.


----------



## Firawyn (Aug 16, 2008)

> Via intelligence, they could still get plenty accomplished.



Yea, so could my dog.


----------



## YayGollum (Aug 16, 2008)

Correct! If any sort of horrible canine possessed any sort of intelligence, it could get plenty accomplished. Your horrible dog (which only makes it average, as far as the species is concerned) has no sort of intelligence, so it gets very little accomplished. The Wargs, on the other paw, were better. Their creator wrote very little about them, so I can only hypothesize, but why is it that the giant eagles are never as trivialized as the Wargs? They don't have hands, either. They are used as mounts all of the time, too.


----------



## Firawyn (Aug 16, 2008)

True, all true. I suppose that it's about the human perspective in the end - what do we want to believe? Do we want to believe that such a source of evil (whatever evil is) would be recognized, or that the beautiful, honorable Eagles would be recognized?



PS...Yay, you don't live in FL anymore...when are you planning on changing your location?


----------



## YayGollum (Aug 16, 2008)

Ack! *hastily edits* I thought that I did that already. oh well.  *hides* And I am trying to come up with something else to write about this subject. Who comes up with the names for battles? The Battle Of Five Armies always sounded very lame, to myself. How's about at least The Battle For The Lonely Mountain? It was probably the evil thief Bilbo Baggin's fault. The Dwarves probably have a much better name for it.


----------



## Firawyn (Aug 16, 2008)

Or "The Battle of Many Dead"


----------



## HLGStrider (Aug 16, 2008)

Firawyn said:


> I am always amused at how we talk about these things like it's actually real history....


Hits Firawyn again with her single volume, leather bound, Lord of the Rings collectors edition this time. Two counts of sacrilege in one day. Suggestion that Tolkien made it all up! Psssshhhhhhhhh

Hisses angrily, her fur standing on end.


----------



## Bucky (Aug 16, 2008)

I am always amused at how we talk about these things like it's actually real history...

*Yeah, that's one reason I struggle so much with varient versions in HoME & UT, not to mention Christopher Tolkien's ruiness statement in the foreward to The Silmarillion that "A complete consistency is not to be looked for." *


----------



## Firawyn (Aug 17, 2008)

Elgee! Be *hides* nice! Nice kitty. It's not sacrilege. It's logic. I'm more Vulcan than Elf *points to own pointed ear*


----------



## HLGStrider (Aug 17, 2008)

Elgee snaps her all powerful mod fingers and turns Firawyn into an amoeba.

I'm more Q than Vulcan. Mu ha ha ha ha.


----------



## Durin's Bane (Aug 17, 2008)

Now I see why WM was looking for a new mod...


----------



## HLGStrider (Aug 17, 2008)

Turns DB into a camera and takes pictures of cute kittens with him.


----------



## Illuin (Aug 17, 2008)

Yay, your new location is a bit vague; you forgot a few things. Rochester, New York, the United States of North America, Earth, Sol System,_* Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Super Cluster, Cosmic Web, Universe*._


----------



## Firawyn (Aug 17, 2008)

HLGStrider said:


> Elgee snaps her all powerful mod fingers and turns Firawyn into an amoeba.
> 
> I'm more Q than Vulcan. Mu ha ha ha ha.



Oh...*bad word!*...however it would be illogical to conclude that you truly had the power of Q. You not have had any offspring. 


At Durin....I AGREE!


----------



## Persephone (Aug 17, 2008)

Firawyn said:


> ... *Wargs were hardly their own race*...




Glad I'm not the only one who realizes that those _dogs_ were not sentient enough to be considered an army of their own. *eyes DB and YG*

They were pissed, sure, I mean, Gandalf burning their stinky fur could be reason enough to seek payback, but they had no quarrels with the other races - humans, elves, - at least not one that was reason enough for them to _want_ to seek revenge or go out on an all out war. Plus, they are not _that_ smart. Don't give them too much credit. Sure they have their secret meetings and all that, but that doesn't mean they are sentient enough to go join a war unless they were there as vehicles.

That war was for the goblins. They were vehicles.


----------



## HLGStrider (Aug 18, 2008)

> You not have had any offspring.


Have you been drinking? Or am I the only one who finds this sentence befuddling?

I have an offspring. . . Q had an offspring. We're even.


----------



## Persephone (Aug 18, 2008)

HLGStrider said:


> Have you been drinking? Or am I the only one who finds this sentence befuddling?
> 
> I have an offspring. . . Q had an offspring. We're even.




lol! 

Befuddling = Confuzzled

Yeah, maybe she had a wee-bit too many martinis  - LIKE ME, sometimes.


----------



## Prince of Cats (Aug 18, 2008)

Narya said:


> Glad I'm not the only one who realizes that those _dogs_ were not sentient enough to be considered an army of their own. *eyes DB and YG*



I'm not so sure there is enough said in the Hobbit to suggest the 'dogs' were any less sentient than Goblins. They were allies, not pets. I haven't read the Hobbit for a couple months, though, so it'd be great to bring in some actual text


----------



## Durin's Bane (Aug 18, 2008)

So that's it then! You see them as mere dogs! Do you see the Eagles as just eagles then? Or Beorn as just a bear? Or the Huorns as just trees?


----------



## Persephone (Aug 18, 2008)

Durin's Bane said:


> So that's it then! You see them as mere dogs! Do you see the Eagles as just eagles then? Or Beorn as just a bear? Or the Huorns as just trees?



Well, now that you mentioned it, Beorn is a man--not a bear--a man. Yeah, he converts into a bear when angered, but essentially, he's a man. The Eagles, well, they are birds. Sentient? Yes, but birds. The Huorns _are_ just trees. Wild trees, but trees nontheless.


----------



## Prince of Cats (Aug 18, 2008)

Was Smaug any more sentient than a Lizard at petsmart then? 



And I don't know any men that change into bears (and I know some pretty strange people). Sounds more like a were-bear


----------



## Illuin (Aug 18, 2008)

> by Narya
> _Yeah, maybe she had a wee-bit too many martinis  - LIKE ME, sometimes._


 
Martinis? Blah! That's an old fogy drink. That's 30 years down the road; I've seen the photo album .

Well, Wargs are rumored to be descended from Drauglin and Carcharoth; and those two certainly came across as being sentient. Drauglin spoke to Sauron and warned him about Huan ("*Huan is there!*"….. Ah, greatest Tolkien moment ever). So, I would have to include them.


----------



## Bucky (Aug 18, 2008)

Glad I'm not the only one who realizes that those dogs were not sentient enough to be considered an army of their own. *eyes DB and YG*


*I think the point, in terms of this discussion isn't what WE think, but what TOLKIEN thought. He wrote that the Wargs were one of the 5 Armies so they are.....

Even if I personally spent 31 years thinking the Eagles were the 5th Army. * 


Well, Wargs are rumored to be descended from Drauglin and Carcharoth; 

*Where's that from? 
Never read that myself......*


----------



## Prince of Cats (Aug 18, 2008)

Bucky said:


> *
> Even if I personally spent 31 years thinking the Eagles were the 5th Army. *



I figured it was the eagles or _Beorn_


----------



## Illuin (Aug 18, 2008)

> from Bucky
> _Where's that from? _
> _Never read that myself......_


 
Hence my use of the word “_*rumor*_”  (fairly common rumor as well); and also a rumor I personally subscribe to. Observing the entire history in Middle-Earth, and all of the creatures throughout its years, it would seem to me just as obvious as Shelob being a descendent of Ungoliant (which of course, she is).


----------



## Firawyn (Aug 19, 2008)

Just an FYI - I'm a hard liquor girl. Give me vodka, give me rum.


"Why is the rum gone?!"


----------



## HLGStrider (Aug 19, 2008)

Tsk, 19 and already boozing, eh?

I like red wine myself but it only takes one glass and I'm so buzzed that there really isn't any point to continuing. At my old office I used to have somewhat of a reputation for being a very funny drunk, partially because I started cleaning the bathroom counters at the Mexican restaurant we were having our office party at after one daiquiri and half a pina colada, repeating the phrase "I'm fine" over and over again. It's a defense mechanism, though, I swear. I've never had a hangover and never gotten truly drunk because I get tipsy so quickly that I stop after one drink.


----------



## Gilthoniel (Aug 19, 2008)

I love nothing more than a glass or twelve of wine, but is it just me or has this thread just _leapt_ off topic?!

Don't get me wrong, I've no issue, but I'm struggling to see how we ended up discussing our various hedonistic lifestyles!


----------



## Prince of Cats (Aug 19, 2008)

Before I grab a couple pitchers, how did we get on this topic??


----------



## HLGStrider (Aug 19, 2008)

Fir was posting drunk again.


----------



## Gilthoniel (Aug 19, 2008)

Haha! Posting drunk.. The online drink driving!


----------



## nodnarb (Aug 19, 2008)

jagermeister is the best


----------



## Firawyn (Aug 19, 2008)

HLGStrider said:


> Fir was posting drunk again.



I was not posting drunk! However, that is a brilliant idea. May have to try that. You know Elgee...I'm not in the least surprised to find out you're a lightweight. You need to build up your tolerance! However, having an infant, you should not be drinking at all...which of course comes back to me and my age and yes I drink. I'll be 20 in *checks date* eight days. I'm always had "older friends"...and my boyfriend who I live with is "older", (who by the way, bought me new copies of Lord of the Rings today, so you can stop hitting my over the head with that red leather copy, if you plase), so yea, I've just always had access. I don't drive drunk. I'm responsible about it. 


NOW - on topic?


----------



## Durin's Bane (Aug 20, 2008)

Gilthoniel said:


> I love nothing more than a glass or twelve of wine!


Or twelve? Haha, respect!
And since the "on topic" is turning into a "wings or no", I vote for continuing the "off topic". And off-topicly I'm a beer fan... And if some one knows what Rakia is I might share some of my extensive knowledge on the process of making and consuming it...


----------



## Prince of Cats (Aug 20, 2008)

Durin's Bane said:


> Or twelve? Haha, respect!
> And since the "on topic" is turning into a "wings or no", I vote for continuing the "off topic". And off-topicly I'm a beer fan... And if some one knows what Rakia is I might share some of my extensive knowledge on the process of making and consuming it...



I see on Wikipedia that some Rakia is like Grappa, which being Italian descent was a must-try  Maybe not again for a while tho  

I have ouzo and absinthe (Lucid) in the basement which both are very anise flavored, maybe like some Rakias. 

These days I usually drink beer if out havin fun and scotch if posting on TTF  Sometimes a little mezcal with spicy homemade sangrita 

Tell me more about making Rakia!


----------



## Bucky (Aug 20, 2008)

Quote:
from Bucky
Where's that from? 
Never read that myself...... 

Hence my use of the word “rumor” (fairly common rumor as well); and also a rumor I personally subscribe to. Observing the entire history in Middle-Earth, and all of the creatures throughout its years, it would seem to me just as obvious as Shelob being a descendent of Ungoliant (which of course, she is). 


*Well, makes sense, except they were werewolves & werwolves AND Wargs still existed in the Third Age....

Gandalf to Frodo in 'Mamy Meetings':

"Not all his (Sauron's) servants are chattels & wraiths! There are orcs & trolls. there are wargs & werewolves.....' (note both mentioned, i.e., there's a difference).
Later on when the Fellowship is attacked by the 'wolves' outside Hollin Gate, Gandalf says in Sindinarin before throwing up the flaming branch, I forget the exact quote, but something like "Get you gone, you Werewolves...." Werewolves (ngaurhoth) is in there for sure though.

So, there is a difference between wargs & werewolves.
What's the difference? 
Probably just a wolf/warg with a 'fell spirit' inhabiting it, so I'd guess Wargs could be descended through Drauglin, who is called,, 'The Father of Werewolves'.*



And since the "on topic" is turning into a "wings or no", 

*Do we REALLY want to go there again?
I must admit I've changed my answer this year after 30 years!
(if you want to go there) *


----------



## Turgon (Aug 20, 2008)

Language is a sure sign of sentience in my opinion. The Wargs involved in the Battle of Five Armies had a language: Gandalf speaks to them in their own tongue outside of the Goblin's Back Door. Therefore they are sentient no? They speak, they make alliances, they have goals beyond mere survival. I guessing your average Warg was smarted than your average troll.

Also as Bucky has mentioned and as can be seen with the battle outside Hollin Gate - Wargs were not all they seemed. The ones the fellowship fought disappeared when slain which seems to be something mentioned a few times with the death of a 'Maia Spirit'. Perhaps it goes something like this - the are wolves, simple common wolves, then there are werewolves - which seem to have a fell-spirit inside them. We also have Wargs, which are certainly not common wolves, but it is unclear whether they are true werewolves. Could they not be the link between wolves and werewolves? Like the Uruk Hai - a breed created from the two distinct races? Is it possible that werewolves acted as chieftains amongst the Wargs? Bending them towards Sauron's will?

Lots of question still...


----------



## Illuin (Aug 22, 2008)

> by Durin's Bane
> _And since the "on topic" is turning into a "wings or no", I vote for continuing the "off topic". And off-topicly I'm a beer fan... And if some one knows what Rakia is I might share some of my extensive knowledge on the process of making and consuming it..._


 
Somehow I knew this would get your attention. I (and I reckon most of us) have seen the forum photo album.




I know; Tobacco only......"Didn't Inhale"... 

Personally I like weird beer and girlie drinks myself (lots of them). Have to admit, there have been a few mornings where I checked the forum to see if I had accidentally posted something totally insane the night before .


----------



## Durin's Bane (Aug 23, 2008)

Who said "Didn't inhale"?





Back on topic:


----------



## Firawyn (Aug 24, 2008)

I think we may have exhausted this topic...it's one of those *cringes at the rebukes she knows she's about to get* "Do Belrogs have wings?" discussions. We could go round and round and round but never get to the end.


----------



## baragund (Aug 25, 2008)

Interesting insight, Galin. Is the Rateliff source you are referencing The History of The Hobbit?


----------



## Elthir (Aug 25, 2008)

Yes *Baragund*, the source is The History of The Hobbit (sorry, I deleted my original post and posted it again -- that's why it now appears out of sequence!).

The emergence of the idea of five armies included (as _The Hobbit_ was being written): Men, Elves, bears, goblins and wargs -- but here the battle was not at the Lonely Mountain however, and was seemingly inspired by the Great Goblin's death (revenge for the evil guys). Thus the Elves and Wood-men and a troop of bears (no Dwarves) fight the wargs and goblins, and this was possibly going to take place in the Anduin Vale on Bilbo's return. 

Source: Plot Notes B, _Mr. Baggins,_ John Rateliff

Later Tolkien moved the battle (obviously), and according to information in '_Plot Notes F'_ the name Battle of Five Armies appears, but JRRT seems uncertain as to who the 'five' were. Tolkien wrote and numbered seven forces, with a hyphen between the five good and the two bad -- and _possibly_ intended the name to refer to the five allies (the five good guys) who were to contest the goblins and 'wolves'. Here the Dwarves and the Eagles are numbered, along with bears (note plural), Woodelves and Men.

Source: The End of the Journey, note iii, _Return to Bag-End,_ John Rateliff

Of course this is textual history, and as has been noted, in the published version the eagles and Beorn, while significant, apparently do not qualify.


----------



## Bucky (Aug 25, 2008)

Thus the Elves and Wood-men and a troop of bears (no Dwarves) fight the wargs and goblins, and this was possibly going to take place in the Anduin Vale on Bilbo's return. 

Source: Plot Notes B, Mr. Baggins, John Rateliff

*I think some of these Tolkien scholars need to go out & , ahem, get themselves a girlfriend instead of spending so much time over analysysing the texts...

'paralysis from over analysis' as the saying goes. 

A TROOP of bears?

To quote Beorn himself, "Since when is one (bear) a troop?"

No Dwarves?


''in that last hour Beorn himself had appeared... He came alone, and in bear's shape...

I guess 513 Dwarves doesn't count as a army, but one stinking bear does?

Absurd.

'*


----------



## baragund (Aug 25, 2008)

Bucky, Galin was describing the evolution of the battle in Tolkien's mind from initial concepts to the final product. As I understand Galin's post, Tolkien had an early idea that a troop of bears would be one of the combating "armies". That idea eventually evolved to the final product of the Dwarves from the Iron Hills.

I suppose we could all use a girlfriend but, speaking for myself, I have a feeling that my wife of 20 years my object so I will decline...


----------



## Bucky (Aug 26, 2008)

Bucky, Galin was describing the evolution of the battle in Tolkien's mind from initial concepts to the final product

*Oh, my bad......  

I guess I need to read more Tolkien Scholars - yeah, right! 

PS - I still think most of the ones I've read need to go out & get some human 'companionship' instead of over analyzing Tolkien.*


----------



## Mariad (Jan 11, 2009)

well, I'm assuming that they weren't counted because the eagles didn't show up until well after the battle began, all of the other 5 armies were there when it started.


----------



## Durin's Bane (Jan 11, 2009)

Mariad said:


> ...


Please tell me you've read atleast part of the five pages before posting!


----------



## Firawyn (Jan 13, 2009)

Mariad said:


> well, I'm assuming that they weren't counted because the eagles didn't show up until well after the battle began, all of the other 5 armies were there when it started.


 
I don't think that matters too much. In every battle, historical or fictional, someone always gets there first, and someone else always gets there last. I beleive the term is "It takes two to tango".


----------



## Prince of Cats (Jan 14, 2009)

Firawyn said:


> I beleive the term is "It takes two to tango".



I propose a new term, "It takes seven to make five armies"


----------



## Firawyn (Jan 14, 2009)

*rolly eyes* Well _at least_ I got my point across. You're a riot Prince.


----------



## AnathemicOne (Oct 27, 2010)

I've read this and I'm pretty sure it was the Wild Wolves not Wargs. 

From my understanding of The Hobbit the Wild Wolves and Goblins acted independently, as seen from the Wild Wolves chasing the company up the trees becasue they were in the meeting place where they would meet the Goblins. Why would rider and mount be having meetings? It would be like man and horse having meetings.

So yes, it was just 5 armies, Humans, Dwarves, Elves, Goblins, and Wild Wolves. Though if you want to be more literal it would be 8 armies: Thorin's Dwarves, Men of Laketown, Mirkwood Elves, Misty Mountains Goblins, Wild Wolves, Dain's Dwarves, Great Eagles, and Beorn (because Beorn is badass).


----------



## Bucky (Oct 31, 2010)

I would hardly count 1 individual, even a 'badass' skinchanger as an 'army' or 13 Dwarves as an army - a throng, yes. But an army, no.


----------



## AnathemicOne (Nov 1, 2010)

Alright fine, 7 armies and 1 independent skinchanger.

In political terms, Thorin's Dwarves would be considered a stand-alone army for when they 'conquered' the mountain they became there own nation, this is why Bard and the Elvenking didn't just claimed the mountain of their own despite Thorin's company (which they could've done easily).

And also due to the fact that the Lonely Mountain != Iron Hills


----------



## childoferu (Dec 10, 2010)

AnathemicOne said:


> Alright fine, 7 armies and 1 independent skinchanger.
> 
> In political terms, Thorin's Dwarves would be considered a stand-alone army for when they 'conquered' the mountain they became there own nation, this is why Bard and the Elvenking didn't just claimed the mountain of their own despite Thorin's company (which they could've done easily).
> 
> And also due to the fact that the Lonely Mountain != Iron Hills


 
I sense a programmer here


----------



## Mithrandir-Olor (May 1, 2011)

In the 77 Cartoon the Eagles are clearly defined as the 5th Army by Bilbo. I never thought of it as any different before or after watching the Cartoon.

Sentient or not I can't imagine defining the Wargs as a separate Army, the Goblins still rode them, in strategic lay out of the Battle their both a single unit.

I guess this is Middle Earth's "Five dead, 2 of them Cops".


----------



## Firawyn (May 1, 2011)

Er...no offense but if we used film representations of LotR to answer questions like this, we'd be totally off the mark a million times over (rolls eyes in the general direction of Peter Jackson).

Not that I'm saying your answer in incorrect, but geeze, not a good reference point by a long shot. 

:*eek:


----------



## Mithrandir-Olor (May 1, 2011)

Well it's also consistent with what I always assumed.

I loved Jackson's Movies.


----------



## Firawyn (May 1, 2011)

I loved Jackson's movies as well....but I did not find them to be accurate by a long shot.


----------



## Mithrandir-Olor (May 1, 2011)

They got the basics right. Definitely better then the Return of the King Cartoon.


----------



## Firawyn (May 1, 2011)

Sure, the basics....like the Ring was found by Bilbo and taken to Mount Doom by Frodo? 

Huh, kinda hard to mess that part up. I could have done without a Xena-Arwen, or a corruptible Faramir, or the missing years of Frodo's life, or Saruman's Tragic end, or...shall I go on? 

Sorry, I get kinda bothered when they spend ten minutes doing Aragorn/Arwen love scenes, five times, and they can't spend a happy thirty minutes doing a Scouring of the Shire scene. They spend so much energy focusing on developing Frodo, Sam, Merry, and Pippin, but they never show the most vital evidence of how the war changed them - made them better, and prepared them for the final faceoff with darkness in defending their precious Shire from a disgraced Saruman. :*mad:


*tips hat to any watching Mods* Sorry for straying off topic.


----------



## Mithrandir-Olor (May 1, 2011)

Even Tolkien wasn't perfect the way Fairmier so easily resisted the Ring in the books never made sense to me.

The Scouring would never worked in a film story structure.


----------



## Erestor Arcamen (May 1, 2011)

Faramir was to Denethor the one that would never be as good as Boromir. That's the point for him being able to resist the Ring. He was the better of the two, the stronger, able to resist temptation.


----------



## Mithrandir-Olor (May 1, 2011)

Yes, why it's better if there is a bigger more dramatic deal is made out of his resisting it.


----------



## Sulimo (Jul 17, 2011)

When there are 86 responses, one feels that they may be repeating what has already been stated. However, I will approach the last comment by markoffc and neglect reading the full story (pardon my repeating already stated info). 

I understood that Thorin et al were lumped in with Dain. However, I always found it ambiguous whether or not the wargs and goblins were two separate armies, or if the eagles counted as an army. In the Rankin Bass movie, it makes it clear that Bilbo considered the eagles to count. 

"One two three four five armies! Mister Baggins this is too much to deal with" He then promptly puts on the ring. 
Pardon poor quoting from memory. I am loaning my copy of the movie out, and my computer lacks sound for youtube.


----------



## Bucky (Aug 3, 2011)

Movies ~ Jackson's or the '77 cartoon are hatdly 'canon', lol....

The '77 movie also had Mr. Baggins clearly state only 7 of the Dwarves survived !~ or was it died?

Well, it was one or the other, when in the book, it's only Thorin, Fili & Kili....

Uh, that makes three, not seven or six. :*rolleyes:


----------



## Sulimo (Sep 10, 2011)

Bucky, I am late in responding, but I did want to say good call. God forbid we ever actually base facts off any of the movies.


----------



## host of eldar (Oct 10, 2011)

So far a lot of theories have been told. I think 5 armies are elves, dwarves, men, goblins and wargs. I separate wargs because even they are mounts they re not same as horses. they can kill their riders if they have been ordered by leaders so they represent an army.. 
dwarves can not be separated since the army of dain came to help and thorin has a "squad" not army. they are both in dwarven army..
when we come to eagles; in my opinion if they were present at the beginning then they could be considered an army. this is the point I think..
the battle started with 5 armies--> it's the battle of five armies..


----------



## DerBerggeist (Mar 19, 2012)

Thorin said:


> As I was re-reading The Hobbit (yes, I broke down before the movie), I noticed something interesting.
> 
> The 5 armies at the battle at the end were Elves, Dwarves, Men, Goblins and Wargs.
> 
> ...



Well, by that logic, the armies involved would be goblins, wargs, eagles, hobbits, elves, dwarves, men, wizards, and bats. Oh, and Sauron (the Ring ;*))So I think the Wargs are counted among the goblins, meaning the Eagles were indeed considered as one of the armies, because they are on their own side, against the goblins


----------



## Bard the Bowman (Mar 19, 2012)

From The Hobbit, "So began a battle that none had expected; and it was called the Battle of Five Armies, and it was very terrible. Upon one side were the Goblins and the Wild Wolves, and upon the other were Elves and Men and Dwarves."

So in Tolkien's own words those were the five armies involved. Bilbo is not an army. He is one fighter. If you go by that logic the armies would be, Goblins, Wolves, Bats, Dwarves, Elves, Men, Hobbits, Wizards (Gandalf), Eagles, and Skin-Changers (Beorn). However, this is only referring to the armies that fought through the entire battle and were large enough to be considered an army. The five mentioned in the passage above. The Eagles showed up near the end, and Beorn later. Gandalf and Bilbo weren't large enough to constitute an army. The Bats sound like they just caused dread rather than actually engage in combat. I think this answers all questions.


----------



## DerBerggeist (Mar 19, 2012)

Bard the Bowman said:


> From The Hobbit, "So began a battle that none had expected; and it was called the Battle of Five Armies, and it was very terrible. Upon one side were the Goblins and the Wild Wolves, and upon the other were Elves and Men and Dwarves."
> 
> So in Tolkien's own words those were the five armies involved. Bilbo is not an army. He is one fighter. If you go by that logic the armies would be, Goblins, Wolves, Bats, Dwarves, Elves, Men, Hobbits, Wizards (Gandalf), Eagles, and Skin-Changers (Beorn). However, this is only referring to the armies that fought through the entire battle and were large enough to be considered an army. The five mentioned in the passage above. The Eagles showed up near the end, and Beorn later. Gandalf and Bilbo weren't large enough to constitute an army. The Bats sound like they just caused dread rather than actually engage in combat. I think this answers all questions.



I hope you know I was joking...


----------



## Troll (Mar 19, 2012)

I always counted Thorin and Dain's groups as separate armies, since they weren't able to link up before the battle and fought as separate units.

The Battle of Seventeen Armies has a better ring to it, though. :*D


----------

