# Orcs are everywhere!



## Annatar (Apr 11, 2022)

A new thread has just been posted here (not by me) with a link to an article in which, on the one hand, the linguistic and mythological origins of Tolkien's orcs were discussed, but on the other hand, political propaganda regarding (or better: against) Russia was discernible.

Well, I hate censorship, and it doesn't matter if it's my opinion or the opposite. So I can't approve of the thread being deleted.
It seems that every time I visit this forum, another thread is immediately deleted for some reason. 
In this case, I didn't agree with the linked article at all and had already prepared a good response, which I now can't post at all due to this censorship - which also unfortunately prevents the possibility to post counter-arguments.
My thesis is: if something is nonsense, it will be clarified by conclusive counter-arguments and thus convince many more people than censorship.

As a compromise, there is a new, but politically neutral thread, where Tolkien's sources about the Orcs can be discussed. But also general philosophical questions about mankind concerning orcish characteristics.

So I would like to suggest the following to everyone:

In every real war, there are people on both sides whose souls turn out to be more orcish.
There is actually no major war in which there is not desecration and murder on both sides. Especially if there are mainly mercenaries or volunteer fighters in the respective army, one can assume that the lust for murder, rape and manslaughter is particularly high. Also, any party would always make use of fake news if it served it in any way.

In any case, war and hardship always promote the worst character traits and the decay of morals and intellect. On the one hand, this is human - but it gets really bad when psychopaths use the opportunity to act out their actual perverted desires with impunity. Unfortunately, these psychopaths are often in leadership positions.

In a letter to his son Christopher, who served in the RAF during World War II, Tolkien wrote about orcs appearing on both sides of the conflict:



> Yes, I consider the Orcs as real a creation as anything in 'realistic' fiction.... except that in real life, of course, they're on both sides. After all, 'romance' evolved from 'allegory', and its wars still derive from the allegory's 'inner war', in which good is on one side and various kinds of evil are on the other. In real (outer) life, people are on both sides: this means a colorful alliance of orcs, beasts, demons, simple, honest people and angels.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 11, 2022)

Certain types of content are prohibited on this forum. Anyone unsure of what these are can find clarity by reading the Rules thread.


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## Annatar (Apr 11, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Certain types of content are prohibited on this forum. Anyone unsure of what these are can find clarity by reading the Rules thread.


From my point of view, this thread is not for the users to discuss the forum rules.

My suggestions in this regard were intended more for you moderators for internal reflection. (What you do with my suggestion is up to you, but just think about it elsewhere.)

So I ask that from now on we only discuss Orcish behavior and Orcish-Tolkien inspirations here in a political and forum neutral way.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 11, 2022)

Annatar said:


> From my point of view, this thread is not for the users to discuss the forum rules.


Yet the first half of your post was spent doing just that.



Annatar said:


> My suggestions in this regard were intended more for you moderators for internal reflection.


In that case, a PM is appropriate.


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## Annatar (Apr 11, 2022)

Okay, now please get to the point.


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## Olorgando (Apr 11, 2022)

Annatar said:


> As a compromise, there is a new, but politically neutral thread, where Tolkien's sources about the Orcs can be discussed. But also general philosophical questions about mankind concerning orcish characteristics.


JRRT's "sources" about the Orcs, if by that you mean how he variously considered how they came about within his legendarium, are inconclusive and contradictory. Whether they have similar "roots" in (more or less) known mythologies in our world, similar to Elves, Dwarves, Trolls, Dragons ... perhaps some thin, obscure strands in Norse and Celtic (Arthurian?) mythologies or legends.

But "general philosophical questions about mankind concerning orcish characteristics" will hardly be able to avoid real-life specifics. And like it or not, that will inevitably land us in politics again ...


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## Annatar (Apr 11, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> JRRT's "sources" about the Orcs, if by that you mean how he variously considered how they came about within his legendarium, are inconclusive and contradictory. Whether they have similar "roots" in (more or less) known mythologies in our world, similar to Elves, Dwarves, Trolls, Dragons ... perhaps some thin, obscure strands in Norse and Celtic (Arthurian?) mythologies or legends.


Yes, I was aware of that, of course. But I still think it's an important discussion point in a Tolkien forum. Existing threads may also be linked here - I'd be surprised if there was nothing about it.
To justify a separate thread, I would be most interested in the historical and linguistic connections from real European history and especially mythology. So where have there been references to Tolkien's orcs among Anglo-Saxons, Scandinavians, Teutons, Romans, Greeks, etc.? - both linguistically and in terms of content - which can be quite different.



Olorgando said:


> But "general philosophical questions about mankind concerning orcish characteristics" will hardly be able to avoid real-life specifics. And like it or not, that will inevitably land us in politics again ...


Why, Tolkien has already provided a neutral answer to this as quoted above. My addition to this would be, as already indicated, that psychopaths are more likely to rise in certain professions and hierarchies than normal people - due to their "elbow-metality".


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## Rivendell_librarian (Apr 12, 2022)

Which is "the rules thread"?


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## Rivendell_librarian (Apr 12, 2022)

Rivendell_librarian said:


> Which is "the rules thread"?


Ok found it now from the links at the bottom of the forum's home page - was expecting to see it in the top section.

Where is the best place to discuss the application of these rules e.g. "religion" forbidden in a forum about Tolkien, Lewis etc?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 12, 2022)

The Rules thread _is _at the top of the forum list, in the News From Bree forum, but also, as you found, under Terms and Rules. Perhaps we could arrange to make it easier to find; we'll check with mazzly about that. One recent step has been to include a link to it in the welcome email to new members.

If you need clarification about any of the rules, that would best be addressed via PM to the mods.

Discussion of _Tolkien's _views on religion or politics is of course permitted, and has been held here; the forum for that is:









J.R.R. Tolkien : The Creator of Middle-earth


Discussions about Oxford Professor John Ronald Reuel Tolkien, the peerless storyteller who made this site possible, and to whose work this site is dedicated.




www.thetolkienforum.com





For an example of an earlier thread of this kind:









Tolkien's Political Views


I think anyone who reads Tolkien recognizes his perspective on industrialism and other societal trends that he saw emerging in his lifetime, but someone recently shared with me a 1943 letter from J.R.R. Tolkien to Christopher where J.R.R. Tolkien describes himself as leaning "more and more to...




www.thetolkienforum.com





You'll also see there an example of how easily this sort of thing can slip into arguments about politics or religion in general, something we try to avoid here.

As to _why _the prohibition, those topics were once-- long before my time -- allowed here, and were the source of unending off-topic argument and acrimony, as I'm sure you can imagine; or if you can't, I believe the old threads can be found in the Archives.


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## Rivendell_librarian (Apr 12, 2022)

Though given responses are blocked it's a statement of the rules rather than a discussion thread about the rules.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 12, 2022)

Yes, the News from Bree forum is for announcements and statements from the mods and forum owner. 

If you feel it necessary to have a general discussion about the forum rules, the place to post a thread would be the Entmoot forum:









Entmoot


Questions and Suggestions Comments, suggestions, and discussions about what members like, dislike, and would like to see at TTF.




www.thetolkienforum.com





I'll just add an encouragement for everyone to thoroughly explore the various forums here-- you never know what you might find. 🙂


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