# Celeborn's farewell



## Eledhwen (Feb 1, 2003)

What do you think Celeborn meant when he spoke to Aragorn at their final parting?

*But Celeborn said: "Kinsman, farewell! May your doom be other than mine, and your treasure remain with you to the end!"*


----------



## Ithrynluin (Feb 1, 2003)

Celeborn is grieved because Galadriel, his wife, is leaving Middle Earth, but he himself is unwilling to leave yet, although he knows he will have to do so eventually. While Galadriel's true home lies in the uttermost West, Middle Earth is the home of Celeborn, and Galadriel remained in ME for his sake also. He wants to enjoy Middle Earth, but he doesn't find much pleasure in (East) Lórien without Galadriel there, so he goes to Imladris and thence to the Havens and Valinor. They were reunited in the Blessed Realm and that's a happy end.


----------



## Eledhwen (Feb 1, 2003)

I thought that must be it. He shared Greenwood the Great with Thranduil and the Woodmen for a while too, didn't he. Do you think Celeborn thought Galadriel's grandaughter would up and off to the West too, leaving Aragorn in the lurch? He must have known that, in Elf years, they were going to have a pretty short marriage anyway, Aragorn being a mortal.


----------



## Maeglin (Feb 2, 2003)

Not only Galadriel's grand-daughter, his too. Maybe he was hoping she would change her mind, as does Elrond. Well I think he was hoping for it, that way he could see his daughter again.


----------



## f0enix_rising (Feb 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Glorfindel1187 _
> *Maybe he was hoping she would change her mind, as does Elrond. Well I think he was hoping for it, that way he could see his daughter again. *


 What a tough choice that would've been! I know there are other threads regarding Arwen and Aragorn, but I just have to say that I don't think I could've stayed. Maybe I've just never loved someone enough.

How sad for me


----------



## Eledhwen (Mar 8, 2003)

We can't possibly understand the grief of the Elves at such partings - our mortality allows most of us less than a century on this earth before we depart for the place where Men go. Imagine being with someone for thousands of years and then being separated. I can't. And yet, Celeborn has a choice.


----------



## Celebithil (Mar 8, 2003)

Where does it say that Celeborn went to Valinor? I was always under the impression that he stayed in ME.


----------



## Ithrynluin (Mar 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Celebithil _
> *Where does it say that Celeborn went to Valinor? I was always under the impression that he stayed in ME. *



From _The Prologue to the Lord of the Rings_:



> It is probable that Meriadoc obtained assistance and information from Rivendell, which he visited more than once. There, though Elrond had departed, his sons long remained, together with some of the High-elven folk. It is said that Celeborn went to dwell there after the departure of Galadriel; but there is no record of the day when at last he sought the Grey Havens, and with him went the last living memory of the Elder Days in Middle-earth.


----------



## Celebithil (Mar 8, 2003)

Ok thanks, did he leave right after Galadriel? Cause I seem to remember reading that he stayed behind for a good portion of time after she left, however I may be mistaken.


----------



## Ithrynluin (Mar 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Celebithil _
> *Ok thanks, did he leave right after Galadriel? Cause I seem to remember reading that he stayed behind for a good portion of time after she left, however I may be mistaken. *



He remained into the 4th Age for an indefinite period of time, but he departed eventually.


----------



## elffriend (Mar 12, 2003)

I know celeborn did not leave with Galadriel. I read somewhere that after the death of Aragorn, Arwen went to Lothlorien and wandered among the trees, till she laid down and died of grief, it was in that year that Legolas built his ship and sailed into the west with Gimli, the last of the Fellowship. Although nothing is said, do you think that possibly celeborn and some of the elves stayed for the sake of Arwens grief, and left after Arwen died, with Legolas and Gimli. Because I do not think that the elves would have left Arwen completely alone to face this grief alone.


----------



## BlackCaptain (Mar 15, 2003)

*Galadriel and the Gray Havens*

If I'm not mistaken, Galadriel is a very elder Noldor. She was with the company during the Flight of the Noldor, am I correct? And this entire company, was put under the Doom of Mandos, Galadriel included. This Doom stated that none of these Noldor shall ever again set foot in the Blessed Realm.

So then how can Galadriel pass into the west after the Ring is destroyed? Wouldn't she be refused admitance?


----------



## Gwindor (Mar 15, 2003)

After the War of Wrath and the defeat of Melkor the surviving Noldor were pardoned by the Valar and allowed to pass west. Not to Aman but to Tol Eressea, I think. But some, like Galadriel, refused to leave the mortal lands - out of pride and love - and remained.

Anyway, there's always an exception to a rule (or prophesy), I guess.


----------



## Ithrynluin (Mar 15, 2003)

From _Unfinished Tales; The History of Galadriel and Celeborn_:



> Pride still moved her when, at the end of the Elder Days after the final overthrow of Morgoth, she refused the pardon of the Valar for all who had fought against him, and remained in Middle-earth. It was not until two long ages more had passed, when at last all that she had desired in her youth came to her hand, the Ring of Power and the dominion of Middle-earth which she had dreamed, that her wisdom was full grown and she rejected it, and passing the last test departed from Middle-earth for ever.


----------



## Mirabella (Mar 17, 2003)

*Did Elrond go to Valinor?*

I know that all the Noldor who took part in Feanor's rebellion where never allowed to return to Valinor, but what about their children born in ME? Did they fall under the same doom as their parents, or were they judged separately?

I think Elrond and other second generation Noldor may have been allowed to go to Valinor, but probably would have chosen to stay on Tol Eressea where the majority of their kinsmen were. What do the rest of you think?


----------



## William Amos (Mar 17, 2003)

I seem to remember reading in the simarilion the debate about Half Elves if they were elves who were allowed to go to the Undying lands and Men who are not.

I remember one vala saying "Equally the Noldor cannot return"

Then it was suggested that the children of the Elf/Human marraige would CHOSE which race he would belong to.

I remember Elros and Elrond both had this choice. Elros chose to be human and Elrond chose to be elvish. That is why he was allowed to return.

Wish I coud give exact quote but it in the Simarilion.

Hmm as elrond wasnt born at the time of the Kinslaying would think he wouldnt be under the ban of the noldor. But wonder if that applies to anyone born after the event ?


----------



## Tar-Elenion (Mar 17, 2003)

"The Valar listened to the pleading of Eärendil on behalf of Elves and Men (both his kin), and sent a great host to their aid. Morgoth was overthrown and extruded from the World (the physical universe). The Exiles were allowed to return - save for a few chief actors in the rebellion of whom at the time of the L. R. only Galadriel remained."
Letter 297

The Ban was lifted after the War of Wrath.


----------



## Mirabella (Mar 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Tar-Elenion _
> [BThe Ban was lifted after the War of Wrath. [/B]



I haven't had the oppurtunity yet to read the Letters, but everything I have read (The LOTR, The Simarillion, Unfinished Tales and part of BoLT 1) suggest the Noldor were never allowed to return to Valinor proper, but dwelt on the isle of Tol Eressea, certainly part of Aman, but not the city of the Valar.


----------



## BlackCaptain (Mar 17, 2003)

I just asked a question about Galadriel concerning this topic... 

The Noldor were granted return to Valinor after the downfall of Melkor i believe...


----------



## Melko Belcha (Mar 17, 2003)

You also have to ask is Elrond a Noldor?
He has Noldor blood and Vanyar blood from Earendil. And from Elwing he would have Sindarin and Laiquendi (green-elves) blood.


----------



## BlackCaptain (Mar 17, 2003)

Fingolfin - Fingon; Turgon; Aredhel

Turgon - Idril=Tuor(man)

Idril=Tuor - Earendil(half man half elf) = Elwing (elf)

Earendil=Elwing - Elrond.


Elwing was Sindarian. Thats the only trace of Sindar Elrond has in his blood. 

So why is Elrond called 'Half-Elven' when his father is?


----------



## Melko Belcha (Mar 17, 2003)

Finwe (Noldor) + Indis (Vanyar) = Turgon
Turgon + Elenwe = Idril
Idril + Tuor = Earendil (Half-elf)

Beren + Luthien (Sindarian) = Dior
Dior (Half-elf) + Nimloth (Sindarian) = Elwing

Earendil + Elwing = Elrond and Elros

Sorry about the Laiquendi, I always mistake Nimloth as a green-elf.


----------



## Mirabella (Mar 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Melo Belcha _
> *Finwe (Noldor) + Indis (Vanyar) = Turgon
> Turgon + Elenwe = Idril
> Idril + Tuor = Earendil (Half-elf)
> ...



I can't back this up right now, but I have always thought kinship was passed down through the father's side, which would make Turgon, Idril, Tuor (because I do remember a quote from the Sim saying something to the effect that Tuor was counted among the Noldor) and Earendil as Noldor. That makes Elrond as the son of Earendil a Noldor. 

Some of you seem to equate Valinor with Aman, which I do not. Valinor was a region within Aman where the Valar dwelt. Tol Eressea was part of Aman but not Valinor. Unless somebody can prove me mistaken?


----------



## Tar-Elenion (Mar 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mirabella _
> I haven't had the oppurtunity yet to read the Letters, but everything I have read (The LOTR, The Simarillion, Unfinished Tales and part of BoLT 1) suggest the Noldor were never allowed to return to Valinor proper, but dwelt on the isle of Tol Eressea, certainly part of Aman, but not the city of the Valar.



I was addressing issues about the Ban, not about Valinor.

About where they could or would dwell:
"And when they came into the West the Gnomes for the most part rehabited the Lonely Isle, that looks both West and East; and that land became very fair, and so remains. But some
returned even to Valinor, as all were free to do who willed; and
there the Gnomes were admitted again to the love of Manwe and
the pardon of the Valar; and the Teleri forgave their ancient grief, and the curse was laid to rest. " 
HoME 5, pg 332.

"And when they came into the West the Elves of Beleriand dwelt upon Tol Eressëa, the Lonely Isle, that looks both west and east; whence they might come even to Valinor. They were admitted again to the love of Manwë and the pardon of the Valar; and the Teleri forgave their ancient grief, and the curse was laid to rest."
The Silmarillion


----------



## Melko Belcha (Mar 17, 2003)

I am sure he would have gone there when he first arived, along with Galadriel, Gandalf, Bilbo, and Frodo. If he would live there is a different matter. I guess it would depend on where Celebrian lived.


----------



## Mirabella (Mar 17, 2003)

Ah...that's the quote I was looking for! Thanks Tar-Elenion  So in summary, the Noldor could have gone to Valinor if they chose, but most remained in Tol Eressea.


----------

