# Does Ilúvatar deserve to be worshipped?



## Ancalagon (Aug 2, 2006)

When one considers the devastation upon Arda since the beginning, one must wonder whether Eru indeed deserved to be praised. Man seems the only sentient being upon Arda to have ever really praised Eru, yet should all races bow down before him/her and be thankful, such as the Evil races do before Melkor or Sauron. In saying that, they are but Demigods, neither of whom really deserve worship.

Is Ilúvatar worthy of worship or is the question itself irrelevant?


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## Alcuin (Aug 2, 2006)

That depends. Do you suppose Elves and Men enjoyed their existence, or would they have preferred never to have been at all? Do you suppose they enjoyed the freedom of choice – including the freedom to make mistakes, and real bone-headed ones at that – or would they have preferred to have been subjected to Morgoth or Sauron? Do you suppose they wanted some hope, some _amdir_, for the future, or would they have preferred that life in Arda be that all there is? If you can answer those questions, perhaps you can answer your original question as well. 

_Morgoth’s Ring_, “Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth”, ‘Tale of Adanel’ 


> The first Voice we never heard again, save once. In the stillness of the night It spoke, saying: ‘Ye have abjured Me, but ye remain Mine. I gave you life. Now it shall be shortened, and each of you in a little while shall come to Me, to learn who is your Lord: the one ye worship, or I who made him.’



_Welcome back after a long absence, Ancalagon!_


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## Arvedui (Aug 3, 2006)

Well, that was a most welcome return!
And a fitting question to go along with it, as well. 

Wether or not Ilúvatar is worthy of worship is in fact a personal consideration, given that each and every being has been given a free will. And that, by itself, is in my opinion enough to be worthy of worship.

The devastation upon Arda is a result of free will, eventually. 
The Ainur set out to create Arda in the image of the Music as they had understood it. Morgoth, on the other hand desired a kingdom run by his rules, and used his powers to try to create Arda as close to his own vision as possible. And as some of the Maiar choose to follow Morgoth instead of Manwë, the struggle started.

In my opinion, it would be wrong to blame Ilúvatar for this. The alternative would have been a world were none were free to choose anything, would'nt it?


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## Thorondor_ (Aug 3, 2006)

AncalagonMan seems the only sentient being upon [autolink said:


> Arda[/autolink] to have ever really praised Eru


I disagree:


Letter #183 said:


> The Eldar and the Numenoreans believed in The One, the true God, and held worship of any other person an abomination


 Perhaps the dwarves felt the same, though they probably had Aule as some sort of Christ-figure.


> The devastation upon Arda is a result of free will, eventually.


 Well, there are some interesting refferences which seem to contradict that:


Of the severance of marriage said:


> For Eru is Lord of All, and moveth all the devices of his creatures, even the malice of the Marrer, in his final purposes, but he doth not of his prime motion impose grief upon them


 "everyone"'s favorite:


Ainulindale said:


> And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. *For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument* in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.


 with this interesting spin:


Ainulindale said:


> Through him has pain and misery been made in the clash of overwhelming musics; and with confusion of sound have cruelty, and ravening, and darkness, loathly mire and all putrescence of thought or thing, foul mists and violent flame, cold without mercy, been born, and death without hope. *Yet is this through him and not by him*; and he shall see, and ye all likewise, and even shall those beings, who must now dwell among his evil and endure through Melko misery and sorrow, terror and wickedness, declare in the end that it redoundeth only to my great glory, and doth but make the theme more worth the hearing, Life more worth the living, and the World so much the more wonderful and marvellous, that of all the deeds of Iluvatar it shall be called his mightiest and his loveliest





Atrabeth Finrod ah Andreth said:


> He must as Author always remain 'outside' the Drama, even though that Drama depends on His design and His will for its beginning and continuance, in every detail and moment.





Letter #156 said:


> [Their mortality] would not be altered by the One, except perhaps by one of those strange exceptions to all rules and ordinances which seem to crop up in the history of the Universe, and show the Finger of God, as *the one wholly free Will and Agent.*


 I have a nagging feeling there is an even more powerful refference in the Letters, but it eludes my memory for the time being.


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## Ancalagon (Aug 3, 2006)

That's an interesting ream of quotes Thorondor, though scant evidence to suggest any race other than men gave thanks and praise to Eru specifically. If I recall, all other Races, including Dwarves and Elves were very much given to praising the Ainur. 
Now I do recall in The Silmarillion that the Elves did have a festival of sorts, and it was indeed Elves who taught men about Eru, but Elves are tied to the doom of Arda, just as the Ainur are. It is this fact that leads me to wonder then why they should praise the creator who seems to favour Men in death, but shackled Elves to everlasting life. An old arguement I think, whether everlasting life within the confines of Arda is in fact a gift or a bane.


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## YayGollum (Aug 3, 2006)

Does the Eru dude deserve to be worshipped? I would write ---> No. Nothing to do with what any races or characters that the Tolkien dude came up with thought. Just my opinion. Why should anything be worshipped? Sounds way too sickeningly submissive, to me, and for no good reason, that I can see. Some creepy as well as terrifyingly magical being poofs a bunch of matter and sentience into existence for no other reason than to keep himself entertained? Understandable. I might have gotten bored, too, but I see no reason to be praised for entertaining yourself. I see no evidence that the Eru dude wished to be praised, either.


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## Thorondor_ (Aug 3, 2006)

> though scant evidence to suggest any race other than men gave thanks and praise to Eru specifically


I still believe that at least the Eldar praised Eru; they taught the numenoreans "theology" ("The change of names went with a complete rejection of the Elf-friendship, and of the 'theological' teaching the Numenoreans had received from them. - Letter #211); it is also most likely from the elves that numenoreans have their "unspoken" prayers (letter #298) or their offering of the first fruits to Eru, mentioned in Akallabeth (a mirror of the similar high feasts for the praising of Eru that Manwe did at each first gathering of fruits - Of the darkening of Valinor). The fact that we only have festivals and unspoken prayers is due only to Tolkien's own imposed limitations on his world, that there should be no outward worshipping, as christians usually have.


> I see no evidence that the Eru dude wished to be praised, either.


A matter of debate, I would say:
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]


Osanwe-kenta said:


> The office of the Elder King was to retain all his subjects in the allegiance of Eru, or to bring them back to it, and in that allegiance to leave them free.





The Atrabeth said:


> More probably, they were not informed by the will or design of Eru, who appears in the Elvish tradition to demand two things from His Children (of either Kindred): belief in Him, and proceeding from that, hope or trust in Him (called by the Eldar estel).


In Tolkien's non-religious world, I think we can safely substitute hope for praise; in and of themselves, they both imply the acknowledgement of higher and benevolent power, though in our world, this two notions are not equivalent.


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## Shireman D (Aug 3, 2006)

Thorondor_ said:


> In Tolkien's non-religious world, I think we can safely substitute hope for praise; in and of themselves, they both imply the acknowledgement of higher and benevolent power, though in our world, this two notions are not equivalent.


 
I am not sure that it is accurate to describe the world of Middle Earth as non-religious, unless you mean the absence of organised observance - apart from the infrequent visits of the Numenorean kings to Meneltarma I am struggling to recall any such _cultic_ practice.

However, there is more to religion than _cultus_ and I would suggest that of the three key elements (believing, belonging and behaving) there is good evidence from the text for elements of belief and of behaviour informed by those beliefs. 

The undescribed element is that of collective religious behaviour, with the exception of the coronation of King Ellesar where Gandalf appears to preside over the 'liturgy' in a style analagous to the kind of practices ascribed to the ancient Hebrew prophets such as Elijah and Elisha. Of public ritual and ministerial figures there is nary a word, nor are there sacred texts although it could be argued that some of the poetry of the Elven tradition is used in a quasi-Scriptural way.


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## Thorondor_ (Aug 4, 2006)

Here is the main refference I had in mind (letter #142):"the LotR is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like 'religion', to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism.


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## Shireman D (Aug 4, 2006)

Thank you for the citation Throndor but it seems to me that it reinforces the point that I was making. The cultic is missing (as JRRF states) but there is rather more to religion than that, hence the need for the other elements to be contained within the tale-telling and - I think - it is fair to say that they are: 

there is clear morality with a degree of ethical coherence between the men of the West;
the elements of awe and wonder are interwoven throughout the tales;
the elves are constantly aware of the other dimensions of life beyond the physical;
the wizards have a role as charismatic faith leaders (please note I am using 'charismatic' in its proper theological sense of the one who acts on the basis of perceived spiritual endowment);
both Ents and Bombodil witness a holistic world view characteristic of developed eco-theologies;
May I share an analogy with you? I have an acquaintance who claims not to be religious; yet he believes in a supreme being, is highly ethical in his dealings and personal integrity, worked in an employment that meant that he regularly risked his life in the service of others and is a cornerstone of community where he lives. I ask you - what part of religion is he not practising? 

In the same way Middle Earth is suffused with an ethic and belief (as JRRF says) so apart from the _cultic, _on which we appear to agree, what is left with which to be non-religious ?

Eru walk with you.

*exits to water poor wilting tomatoes (see Global Warning thread).*


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## Thorondor_ (Aug 5, 2006)

> there is clear morality with a degree of ethical coherence between the men of the West; the elements of awe and wonder are interwoven throughout the tales


 Indeed; those are parts of most (but not all) religions of the world.


> the elves are constantly aware of the other dimensions of life beyond the physical


 Agreed; but mere awareness does not make one religious; even of the elves, some became evil and some probably didn't give a damn.


> the wizards have a role as charismatic faith leaders


 This begs the question of how many Men were aware that Sauron was a godly being, not just a political oppressor. If they weren't, then Gandalf was just a freedom fighter, (as much as that term is tainted today).


> I have an acquaintance who claims not to be religious; yet he believes in a supreme being, is highly ethical in his dealings and personal integrity, worked in an employment that meant that he regularly risked his life in the service of others and is a cornerstone of community where he lives. I ask you - what part of religion is he not practising?


 He doesn't seem to practice what *he* believes is uniting/connecting with the supreme being. I would say that purpose of action (i.e. that connection) is the critical part of being religious, regardless of one does.


> In the same way Middle Earth is suffused with an ethic and belief (as JRRF says) so apart from the _cultic, _on which we appear to agree, what is left with which to be non-religious ?


 I agree that saying "non-cultist world" would have been a more solid statement.


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## chrysophalax (Aug 5, 2006)

Is Ilúvatar worthy of worship or is the question itself irrelevant?


Interesting question, Anc...and welcome back, fellow Dragon!

How does one qualify for worthiness, I would ask in return. Worship is largely defined as worthy of respect and/or reverence and is not the exclusive bailiwick of anything godlike or semi-godlike being, as I could also include nature in this category as well. 

To be found worthy of said worship, (which in the case of Tolkien's works only Anatar seemed to crave, since Iluvater and his cohorts seemed to desire mostly interaction with their creations) in standard releigions (non-Tolkien) the God(s) appear to demand it for themselves, whereas in Tolkien's world, it appears to me to be more a matter of coexistence, where the creations and creators could speak at times with each other, not a case of worship as we would think of it at all.

And to further address worthiness...just because things became corrupted, does that make Iluvatar himself any less deserving of respect? To my way of thinking, that's like saying a parent doesn't deserve his/her child's respect because everything doesn't go smoothly in that child's life. Despite all good intentions, hopes and desires, things will indeed happen that disappoint and hurt said child. Nothing is perfect and disasters will happen. Where then should lie the blame? An all-powerful deity should stop said disasters many would say...but should He/She? What further calamity might befall if one branch of the over-all domino effect should fall incorrectly?

Basically, I think it comes down to perspective. Those affected personally by hardship will rail against the Higher Powers, whilst those who were spared will rejoice and give thanks.

In my own personal opinion, if I were able, as the Elves were, to speak directly, face-to-face, with those who had a hand in creating myself and all the world and the cosmos...yeah, I think I would hold them in immense awe and respect.


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## Persephone (Aug 5, 2006)

Ancalagon said:


> When one considers the devastation upon Arda since the beginning, one must wonder whether Eru indeed deserved to be praised. Man seems the only sentient being upon Arda to have ever really praised Eru, yet should all races bow down before him/her and be thankful, such as the Evil races do before Melkor or Sauron. In saying that, they are but Demigods, neither of whom really deserve worship.
> 
> Is Ilúvatar worthy of worship or is the question itself irrelevant?


 

Thought-provoking question. 

I think the rationale for worshiping Eru would be because he is the beginning of life and essentially Middle-Earth -- and for that I believe anyone is worthy of praise. True that he allowed Melkor and Sauron to wreak havoc in Middle Earth while he stood by and watched many of his creations suffer and eventually die, still, the fact that he is the most powerful being, the source of all life and power, I think he should be respected, if not feared, by all who inhabit Middle-Earth.


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## Shireman D (Aug 7, 2006)

Thorondor_ said:


> Indeed; those are parts of most (but not all) religions of the world.
> .


 
Which religions are you excepting? I don't want to go to far along that route because of the house rules but I would be interested to know.


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## Varokhâr (Aug 7, 2006)

chrysophalax said:


> Basically, I think it comes down to perspective. Those affected personally by hardship will rail against the Higher Powers, whilst those who were spared will rejoice and give thanks.



A lot of times, I think this is true - and can see it being so in Middle-earth as well.

Is Eru worthy of being worshipped? That's a good question - he did create the world and make all life, but on the other hand never lifts a finger to help those in trouble, save that one little incident at Numenor  Aside from that, Eru either isn't able to see everything that happens in Middle-earth and cannot therefore react as he'd like, or sees all and does nothing. The latter is a damning character trait, I think. If a being has the power to help and intervene, yet does not, I fail to see where honoring that being is justified. Creating the world is a highly noble act, but doing nothing when action is needed smears even the act of creation. But that's a whole 'nother discussion 

Granted, he did give over authority to the Vala, and they did their best, but even then dropped the ball here and there. But that's nothing I'd hold against them - they're imperfect, though their virtues are very strong (kind of like how many Heathen Gods are said to be or are depicted in this world). They aren't flawless nor can be expected to behave as such.

Eru worship, in my opinion, would be justifiable only if the religion made to honor him was a vehicle for healthy cultural and spiritual values. There are no otherwordly penalties for not worshipping Eru according to the ancient lore, so unless some practical real-world results can be obtained from Eru-worship, I would see no reason to bother in the first place.


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## Thorondor_ (Aug 7, 2006)

Shireman D:mostly pagan (but I also include some _sects_ of christianity or hinduism). If you agree, we could continue over private messages or emails.


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## Persephone (Aug 7, 2006)

Varokhâr said:


> A lot of times, I think this is true - and can see it being so in Middle-earth as well.
> 
> Is Eru worthy of being worshipped? That's a good question - he did create the world and make all life, but on the other hand never lifts a finger to help those in trouble, save that one little incident at Numenor  Aside from that, Eru either isn't able to see everything that happens in Middle-earth and cannot therefore react as he'd like, or sees all and does nothing.
> 
> The latter is a damning character trait, I think. If a being has the power to help and intervene, yet does not, I fail to see where honoring that being is justified. Creating the world is a highly noble act, but doing nothing when action is needed smears even the act of creation.


 
The creation of beautiful things that exude beauty and light shows that he does care and that Eru has a great capacity to love. There are other ways to provide help other than actually doing it. A Human President or King does not have to actually go to the place where there is a war happening to help his people, he sends his army to do that job. Does that mean that he didn't help out at all? Or that he doesn't care? Certainly not. In Eru's case, he can wipe out Middle Earth entirely, and start again, taking out all the would-be defects that came out of the first creation. He can also look into future rebellions and end them before they actually begin. That would save everyone so much misery, right? However, what does that make him? A Powerful Tyrant. A God who rules with an iron fist, who does not allow his intelligent creations to decide for themselves. Isn't this the very reason why he allowed Melkor to go on? He could have just destroyed him outright. He didn't because he wanted Melkor to either return to him, undo the evil things he did, or perhaps to prove to his other children that going against him results in destruction of life. He allowed these things to happen to prove a point. I think it served for the betterment of every living creature in Middle Earth in the long run.


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## Varokhâr (Aug 7, 2006)

Narya said:


> The creation of beautiful things that exude beauty and light shows that he does care and that Eru has a great capacity to love. There are other ways to provide help other than actually doing it. A Human President or King does not have to actually go to the place where there is a war happening to help his people, he sends his army to do that job. Does that mean that he didn't help out at all? Or that he doesn't care? Certainly not.



But a Human ruler isn't an all powerful deity like Eru. Humans and other beings which had to implement their wills via struggle have to send troops and use force, et al, when the need presents itself. Eru could've just snapped his fingers and ended all strife. He didn't have to do anything the hard way. 



Narya said:


> In Eru's case, he can wipe out Middle Earth entirely, and start again, taking out all the would-be defects that came out of the first creation. He can also look into future rebellions and end them before they actually begin. That would save everyone so much misery, right? However, what does that make him? A Powerful Tyrant.



It wouldn't make him a tyrant. Cleaning up the mess his creations made would rather be a sign of responsibility. Kind of like a car manufacturer recalling a defective line of autos when a flaw is uncovered. Just letting the consumers deal with the flaws is irresponsible - and potentially deadly, depending on the flaws. Letting his beloved creations deal with a superior being gone mad and turned deadly is also irresponsible, terribly so.



Narya said:


> A God who rules with an iron fist, who does not allow his intelligent creations to decide for themselves. Isn't this the very reason why he allowed Melkor to go on? He could have just destroyed him outright. He didn't because he wanted Melkor to either return to him, undo the evil things he did, or perhaps to prove to his other children that going against him results in destruction of life. He allowed these things to happen to prove a point. I think it served for the betterment of every living creature in Middle Earth in the long run.



I disagree; the betterment of Middle-earth would've been served if Eru took responsibility for Melkor and willed him back in line. Certainly the needless death and suffering Melkor ended up causing (directly and indirectly) wasn't less important than Eru's hope that Melkor would change his mind and behave, y'know? Awfully egotistical of Eru to have put his own desires above what he knew would happen if he let Melkor be the jerk he was. 

Of course, we wouldn't have much of a story, then 

Which is really why Eru is like he is - it makes the story flow along. An all-powerful creator-god is an ideal literary tool when one needs to explain the creation of a world and the origin of its first life-forms. In real life, a being like Eru would be impossible IMO, but in Tolkien's world he can exist perfectly well. For me, I'm applying real-world standards to something that only exists in our imaginations - and on paper 

_Disclaimer: None of the above remarks were made in any spirit of anger or comabtiveness, just a desire to discuss. I am trying to not make it a real-world religious debate, and think we all must be careful of that here, given the rules an' all. _


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## Persephone (Aug 7, 2006)

Varokhâr said:


> But a Human ruler isn't an all powerful deity like Eru. Humans and other beings which had to implement their wills via struggle have to send troops and use force, et al, when the need presents itself. Eru could've just snapped his fingers and ended all strife. He didn't have to do anything the hard way


 
What is the purpose of creating other intelligent beings, bestow power to them, and given them responsibilities if you won't trust them with it?




Varokhâr said:


> It wouldn't make him a tyrant. Cleaning up the mess his creations made would rather be a sign of responsibility. Kind of like a car manufacturer recalling a defective line of autos when a flaw is uncovered. Just letting the consumers deal with the flaws is irresponsible - and potentially deadly, depending on the flaws. Letting his beloved creations deal with a superior being gone mad and turned deadly is also irresponsible, terribly so.


 
But a car is not an intelligent lifeform now is it? It really needs to be recalled and repaired. Eru created free, powerful, and thinking beings. To correct them and mold them into what _he _thinks is right without proving first that it is, is Tyrannical. It's dictating what to do instead of letting them decide what is the best way to do it.



Varokhâr said:


> I disagree; the betterment of Middle-earth would've been served if Eru took responsibility for Melkor and willed him back in line. Certainly the needless death and suffering Melkor ended up causing (directly and indirectly) wasn't less important than Eru's hope that Melkor would change his mind and behave, y'know? Awfully egotistical of Eru to have put his own desires above what he knew would happen if he let Melkor be the jerk he was.


 
If Eru had used his power to change Melkor there would be other rebels after him. It's like when a Teacher teaches his students that this is the right way to solve a certain problem and then one student stands up and tells the whole class that he has a better way to solve it. If the teacher tells that student to step out of the classroom without allowing him to prove his claim, then the other students will think that perhaps there was a better way to solve the problem and that the teacher was just afraid to be proven wrong by a student.

Eru will be facing an never ending battle for Sovereignity.

True that many have suffered because of this but it is good in the long run. It's like allowing your child to undergo a painful surgery like say for appendicitis. Even though you know it's going to be painful and that it could even be fatal, you risk it since you know, in the end, he would benefit from it. 

Suffering is bad. But in this case necessary.

Is Eru worthy of worship? My answer is still yes.


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## Varokhâr (Aug 7, 2006)

Narya said:


> What is the purpose of creating other intelligent beings, bestow power to them, and given them responsibilities if you won't trust them with it?


I'd ask "what does trust have to do with it?" but that would be assuming Eru only intended for his creations to amuse him out of his boredom (see YayGollum's post). If Eru created them to live their lives as they willed and to let the world develop however it chose to, then it's all good, and it would stand to reason he'd not do much regardless of what his creations chose to do.



Narya said:


> But a car is not an intelligent lifeform now is it? It really needs to be recalled and repaired. Eru created free, powerful, and thinking beings. To correct them and mold them into what _he _thinks is right without proving first that it is, is Tyrannical. It's dictating what to do instead of letting them decide what is the best way to do it.


Eru still made things as he wanted to, originally. Was that tyrannical? Certainly not. Nor would it be tyrannical for him to remove evil from the world. There are degrees of good his children could've chosen from - evil is unecessary for there to be variety or freedom in the world. 

A car may not be an intelligent lifeform, but that also highlights the responsibility a god like Eru would have when faced with the flaws of the sort Melkor developed. If a car manufacturer has a responsibility to recall and repair a faulty car, then a god has all the more responsibility to recall and repair a defective creation. 

That is, assuming, said god has that power. I am a bit rusty on the lore, but is Eru even clearly depicted as being all-powerful? If he isn't, then he has no choice.



Narya said:


> If Eru had used his power to change Melkor there would be other rebels after him. It's like when a Teacher teaches his students that this is the right way to solve a certain problem and then one student stands up and tells the whole class that he has a better way to solve it. If the teacher tells that student to step out of the classroom without allowing him to prove his claim, then the other students will think that perhaps there was a better way to solve the problem and that the teacher was just afraid to be proven wrong by a student.


Very true - although Melkor's rebellion was a bit worse than a student disagreeing with a teacher. The latter is often harmless, whilst the former - well, you know how that went.

But, as I've said, evil isn't necessary. There can be struggles without evil and variety in life without a malovolent force to contend against. If the evil that propelled Melkor was done away, there would be no rebels against Eru. 

When lives are threatened, doing what will save them ought to take precedence over anything else. 



Narya said:


> Eru will be facing an never ending battle for Sovereignity.


I don't think Eru's soverignity was ever in danger, though. And he was clearly unconcerned with how many Men knew of him or worshipped him, unless there's something I'm missing...?



Narya said:


> True that many have suffered because of this but it is good in the long run. It's like allowing your child to undergo a painful surgery like say for appendicitis. Even though you know it's going to be painful and that it could even be fatal, you risk it since you know, in the end, he would benefit from it.
> 
> Suffering is bad. But in this case necessary.


Not all suffering is good. Enduring hardships is vitally necessary for non-omniscient beings (like the Eldar and the Edain) to grow and learn, but not every tragic death or loss is beneficial or even necessary.

Then again, if Eru was really concerned about the improvement of his creations, they'd be equipped with all the knowledge they'd ever need, and learning via any means would be unecessary. Experiencing the beauty of creation and developing beautiful things would be enough, I'd think. 



Narya said:


> Is Eru worthy of worship? My answer is still yes.


I would give Eru a bit of honor, but no worship. He doesn't require it, and moreover did little to earn it. The Vala are more worthy of honor/worship.


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## Persephone (Aug 7, 2006)

There can be no freedom without sacrifice.


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## Varokhâr (Aug 8, 2006)

Without sacrifice, perhaps not. But without evil, certainly. 

Then again, an omnipotent deity like Eru could've made it so that sacrifice is unecessary for anything. But he was just a literary tool, not a watertight theology, so any sort of flaws we may pick out really don't matter, as Eru served his purpose in the story well.


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## Thorondor_ (Aug 8, 2006)

Varokhâr said:


> Then again, an omnipotent deity like Eru could've made it so that sacrifice is unecessary for anything. But he was just a literary tool, not a watertight theology, so any sort of flaws we may pick out really don't matter, as Eru served his purpose in the story well.


Tolkien tried really hard to present Middle-Earth as a part of our world:


1971 BBC Interview said:


> Dennis Gerrolt: I thought that conceivably Midgard might be Middle-earth or have some connection?
> 
> J.R.R.T.: Oh yes, they're the same word. Most people have made this mistake of thinking Middle-earth is a particular kind of Earth or is another planet of the science fiction sort but it's just an old fashioned word for this world we live in, as imagined surrounded by the Ocean.





Letter #151 said:


> Middle-earth is just archaic English for [?], the inhabited world of men





Letter #165 said:


> 'Middle-earth', by the way, is not a name of a never-never land without relation to the world we live in (like the Mercury of Eddison). It is just a use of Middle English middel-erde (or erthe), altered from Old English Middangeard: the name for the inhabited lands of Men 'between the seas'. And though I have not attempted to relate the shape of the mountains and land-masses to what geologists may say or surmise about the nearer past, imaginatively this 'history' is supposed to take place in a period of the actual Old World of this planet.


His remarks in Myths Transformed about good sprouting out of evil closely parallel his views about the real world (letter #64). Also, Tolkien reffers to Eru as God several times in the letters; I doubt he, a convinced christian, could have conceived a God who would be alien to christianity - seeing that LotR is a catholic work (cf. letter #142).


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## Varokhâr (Aug 8, 2006)

Thorondor_ said:


> Also, Tolkien reffers to Eru as God several times in the letters; I doubt he, a convinced christian, could have conceived a God who would be alien to christianity - seeing that LotR is a catholic work (cf. letter #142).



Very true; I know I would've done the same in his shoes. His Middle-earth reflects how he saw our Middle-earth in many ways, including religiously, at least inasmuch as some of his ideas behind the character of Eru are concerned. Eru always seemed to be based very much on the Abrahamic god, to me.

I'm just trying to avoid bringing up real-world religion, since I understand it's mostly a forbidden subject here


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## Persephone (Aug 8, 2006)

Varokhâr said:


> Very true; I know I would've done the same in his shoes. His Middle-earth reflects how he saw our Middle-earth in many ways, including religiously, at least inasmuch as some of his ideas behind the character of Eru are concerned. Eru always seemed to be based very much on the Abrahamic god, to me.
> 
> I'm just trying to avoid bringing up real-world religion, since I understand it's mostly a forbidden subject here


 
Tolkien might have attempted to make Eru in the image of the Abrahamic God but Eru is nothing like the Abrahamic God, nor is his take on the Silmarillon anywhere near the actual account of the Bible. Not even close. I would suggest that none of you continue with this line of thought since we are not supposed to discuss religion in this forum, and every comparisson done to the Abrahamic God to any other deity for that matter -- Middle-Earth or otherwise -- is offensive to me as I worship the Abrahamic God without question.  

I hope you all would respect that.


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## Walter (Aug 9, 2006)

Woo-hoo, the old dragon left his hoard once again.... 



Ancalagon said:


> Is Ilúvatar worthy of worship or is the question itself irrelevant?



Did he ask to be worshipped?





_Both worlds are - eventually - round and here the resemblance does not cease..._


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## Varokhâr (Aug 9, 2006)

Walter said:


> Did he ask to be worshipped?



Lmao - that's one of the best points. He didn't ask, so it's all good 

For my part, I won't draw any more comparisons between Tolkien's deity and those depicted in our world (given the rules an' all), but as one who honors many pre-Abrahamic deities, any comparisons don't offend me - and shouldn't offend anyone.

A little self-examination never hurt anyone.

*bows out respectfully*


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## Thorondor_ (Aug 9, 2006)

> I would suggest that none of you continue with this line of thought since we are not supposed to discuss religion in this forum


There is no regulation restricting discussions on religion as long as it is related to Tolkien's work; our mods can confirm that.


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## Shireman D (Aug 11, 2006)

Narya said:


> Eru is nothing like the Abrahamic God.


 
Eh?

Both are creative

Both permit free will

Both use emissaries

Both have a chosen people

Both cause earth-changing floods

Both have mountain fanes


Both have ... oh why am I doing this ?!


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## Ermundo (Aug 18, 2006)

Shireman D said:


> Eh?
> 
> Both are creative
> 
> ...



You've laid out the similarities, now what of the differences? And as for the whole Eru worship thing, at the very least he deserves some thanks. He gave us being, which alone is a gift greater than any gift anyone else can give. He gave us a chance at life, he gave us the ability to see, hear, taste, touch. These basic commodities we take for granted, he gave us. I'm not trying to deviate from the topic, but I believe that men, and maybe elves and dwarves acknowledged this, so that's why they worshipped him.

I must ask a question here. Are we to assume Eru as an Abrahamic god, god in general, or what?


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## Shireman D (Aug 26, 2006)

What about the differences?

Well that's the point of my slightly exasperated exit from my last posting I am not sure that there are any.

Is Eru-Illuvator _an_ Abrahamic god? Difficult to read it any other way particularly in view of JRRT's own descriptions of the conceptual frame in which he wrote.

Is Eru-Illuvator _the_ Abrahamic God? Well, the All-holiest has been called stranger things by those who seek him out, on the whole I think they are the same.

p.s. please read the line at the bottom of this post very carefully and note that it is about horticulture rather than theology: these is an important statement there! Mind you I am sometimes think that the boundary between the two is pretty whispy.


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## Ermundo (Aug 26, 2006)

Shireman D said:


> p.s. please read the line at the bottom of this post very carefully and note that it is about horticulture rather than theology: these is an important statement there! Mind you I am sometimes think that the boundary between the two is pretty whispy.



Hmmmm, really. When dealing on such topics though, it IS hard to distuinguish one from the other. Oh well. Sorry.


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## Shireman D (Aug 27, 2006)

morgoththe1 said:


> Hmmmm, really. When dealing on such topics though, it IS hard to distuinguish one from the other. Oh well. Sorry.


 
No apology needed: all good wishes, or lettuce if you prefer: doing well since some rain finally arrived.


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## Gothmog (Sep 19, 2006)

Question; Should Eru be worshiped?

Nice to see you back Anc 


Walter said:


> Did he ask to be worshipped?


This is indeed a very good point Walter, and one that I also have thought on.

In my opinion, Eru should not be worshiped nor did he ever wish the worship of either Men or Elves. To him both peoples were his "Children". Does a father really wish to have blind adoration or worship from his children?

It seems to me that Eru remained too distant from his children, even when he talked directly to Men, for worship to be involved in the relationship. When Men first awoke, they heard the voice of Eru and they called on him with many questions. Yet rather than display his power and knowledge, his answer to these questions was simple yet profound.

*From Morgoth's Ring
Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth
The Debate of Finrod and Andreth : [The 'Tale of Adanel']*



> 'First seek tofind the answer for yourselves. For ye will have joy in the finding, and so grow from childhood and become wise. Do not seek to leave childhood before your time.'


Eru wanted his children to grow and increase in knowledge and wisdon in and of themselves. The only ones in all Arda, or anywhere else for that matter, who craved worship were Melkor and after him, Sauron.


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## Varokhâr (Sep 19, 2006)

Gothmog said:


> The only ones in all Arda, or anywhere else for that matter, who craved worship were Melkor and after him, Sauron.



And that is one of the most telling characteristics. Eru could've done a better job, I think, but he still never desired nor demanded worship of any sort from his creations, which alone makes him worthy of a measure of respect.

Those who demand worship are usually the least deserving of it. 

(ah heck, bowing out is no fun )


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## Barliman Butterbur (Sep 19, 2006)

Ancalagon said:


> When one considers the devastation upon Arda since the beginning, one must wonder whether Eru indeed deserved to be praised. Man seems the only sentient being upon Arda to have ever really praised Eru, yet should all races bow down before him/her and be thankful, such as the Evil races do before Melkor or Sauron. In saying that, they are but Demigods, neither of whom really deserve worship.
> 
> Is Ilúvatar worthy of worship or is the question itself irrelevant?



Oh BOY do I wish we could discuss religion now! It's SUCH a good question generalized out to reality!

Barley


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## Thorondor_ (Sep 19, 2006)

> Yet rather than display his power and knowledge, his answer to these questions was simple yet profound.


 Yet the Atrabeth also states:


> By the holiness of good men - their direct attachment to Eru, before and above all Eru's works - the Elves may be delivered from the last of their griefs: sadness; the sadness that must come even from the unselfish love of anything less than Eru.


 So love of anything else than Eru is a bringer of grief, sadness.

Concerning the worship of Eru, there is an interesting note in the letters (sorry for the length):


Letter #156 said:


> So ended Numenor-Atlantis and all its glory. But in a kind of Noachian situation the small party of the Faithful in Numenor escaped in Nine Ships under the leadership of Elendil – inheriting the hatred of Sauron, the friendship of the Elves, the knowledge of the True God, and (less happily) the yearning for longevity, and the habit of embalming and the building of splendid tombs – their only 'hallows': or almost so. But the 'hallow' of God and the Mountain had perished, and there was no real substitute. Also when the 'Kings' came to an end there was no equivalent to a 'priesthood': the two being identical in Numenorean ideas. So while God (Eru) was a datum of good Numenorean philosophy, and a prime fact in their conception of history. He had at the time of the War of the Ring no worship and no hallowed place. And that kind of negative truth was characteristic of the West, and all the area under Numenorean influence: the refusal to worship any 'creature', and above all no 'dark lord' or satanic demon, Sauron, or any other, was almost as far as they got. They had (I imagine) no petitionary prayers to God ; but preserved the vestige of thanksgiving. (Those under special Elvish influence might call on the angelic powers for help in immediate peril or fear of evil enemies.)... It is to be presumed that with the reemergence of the lineal priest kings (of whom Luthien the Blessed Elf-maiden was a foremother) the worship of God would be renewed, and His Name (or title) be again more often heard. But there would be no temple of the True God while Numenorean influence lasted.


 This atests the following: that the memory of Eru was preserved, that there did exist priest-kings, with spiritual ascendence, and that the worshipping of Eru will be renewed. 

The fact that Eru is worshipped individually reminds of the aprochyphe Gospel of Thomas:


> Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is within you and it is outside you.
> 
> When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty.


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## jallan (Apr 26, 2007)

Tolkien's Eru is obviously a somewhat fictionalized version of the God that Tolkien himself worshipped which explains, in part, why certain points are not answered.

God doesn't jump in and make everything right because in the real world God doesn't jump in and make everything right. And both Gods keep secrets, for example the fate of Men after death.

But from the beginning we see Eru attempting to create more individuality and independence among the Ainur. To do this requires allowing the Ainur to fail, as Melkor and others did. Does this mean that in the end everyone will be restored, even Melkor? Well, some Christians believe that in the end even Satan will repent and be restored.

But Tolkien usually doesn't let himself go beyond what he himself believes could be true in his depiction of Melkor (and of the Ainur). Or rather, he tries not do. A difficulty is that Tolkien wants the joys of pagan mythology with his multitudinous gods but also wants monotheism. A result of this is that it the accounts are very vague as to what the powers of Manwë and the others actually are. Have they _really_ rejected Middle-earth to live in joy in the West, or are they in the West mostly because their task for creation is largely complete? Do Valar such as Tulkas and Oromë even hear any prayers raised to them? And do they, in fact, do anything about them? And are such tales as he tells of the Valar all intended to be true within Tolkien's subcreation, or are some of them supposed to be distortions introduced by Men. That Tolkien played with this idea shows the Tolkien realized that his Valar lacked perfection as presented.

Theologically Tolkien's God is somewhat like the God of Job, who wagers with the devil, just as Eru wages with Melkor that he can, in time, undo and better all Melkor's destruction through his own methods. The story of Middle-earth then becomes part of the story of the great game between Eru and Melkor in which, however, Eru is also attempting to educate the Children of Eru through their own errors and successes.

To have Eru, half way through the _Lord of the Rings_ just come in and fix everything up would be as unreal as having God come in and fix up all the problems in the middle of a James Bond novel. If God behaved like that, neither the story of _The Lord of the Rings_ nor James Bond novels would exist.

This is probably one of the reasons why Tolkien places his story in a pre-Abrahamic era and normally shows such separation between Eru and the Valar, in that he's writing a story, not presenting a theology to be believed. And it is difficult to carry this out. When Númenoreans pray that the Valar turn the mûmak, is there indeed a possibility that the battlefield is surrounded by invisible Valar and Maiar who may do such a thing, if petitioned, but not otherwise?

But it is not by chance in _The Lord of the Rings_ that the chapter following the introduction of Sauron in Gandalf's story introduces Sauron's counterpart, Elbereth, in the song of the Elves and suggests throughout that there are such things as destinies and powers that mean things to happen, such as meaning Bilbo to find the Ring. And Eru is supposed to be behind such powers, if you follow the chain up far enough.


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## Gift of Names (May 5, 2007)

Deserving of praise, yes. Deserving of worship, perhaps. I think the real question is whether or not Eru cares if he is praised or worshiped, or even if he gives special treatment to those who do engage in such reverence. Seemingly without ego, I'm sure he doesn't really care for himself, but through the Valar had the ideas of praise and worship woven into the tapestry of Arda.

So it could be that, metaphysically, praise and worship serve a specific function with respect to Eru or even possibly the Valar themselves. Though that's pure speculation and, as far as I know, there is nothing in canon to suggest this. It's just my own thought.


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## Ancalagon (Feb 22, 2009)

Hmm, I missed a trick with this question, rather than Does Ilúvatar deserve to be worshipped? I should have asked: Does Ilúvatar exist? This is certainly not a religious question, simply asked out of observation. The fables of men refer to a voice, but nothing material or tangible. So I wonder now, does he exist or is he simply a fable of men and elves alike? Who contrived the story of Ilúvatar and what is the evidence to support his existence?

Walter, wonderful answer Then again, if he doesn't really exist he would neither deserve or ask to be worshipped.


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## Walter (Feb 22, 2009)

Please expect my answer here in some two years from now, Ray....


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## Úlairi (Feb 23, 2009)

Ancalagon said:


> Hmm, I missed a trick with this question, rather than Does Ilúvatar deserve to be worshipped? I should have asked: Does Ilúvatar exist? This is certainly not a religious question, simply asked out of observation. The fables of men refer to a voice, but nothing material or tangible. So I wonder now, does he exist or is he simply a fable of men and elves alike? Who contrived the story of Ilúvatar and what is the evidence to support his existence?
> 
> Walter, wonderful answer Then again, if he doesn't really exist he would neither deserve or ask to be worshipped.


 
Well, if you don't believe the _Ainulindalë_ or the _Valaquenta_ provide evidence of the existence of Ilúvatar (or his actual voice in _The 'Tale of Adanel'_) then it's likely you'll have to think outside the box here.

I'll have the proverbial college try:

There are a few references in _Letters _about the lack of Eru's presence within Arda:



> _The Letters of JRR Tolkien_ - #_211: To Rhona Beare_
> 
> *The One does not physically inhabit any part of Eä.*


 


> _The Letters of JRR Tolkien_ - _#181__: To Michael Straight [drafts]_
> 
> *There is no 'embodiment' of the Creator anywhere in this story or mythology.*


 
This obviously makes it difficult to _prove _or provide evidence in support of the existence of Eru.

If taken from a literary perspective, there would be the intrinsic necessity of a _Creator_ to give _authenticity_ to a _mythology_ or _Legendarium _and as such a _Creator_ would therefore be inevitable in this _tale_.



> _The Letters of JRR Tolkien_ - _#200__: From a letter to Major R. Bowen_
> 
> *Melkor, who ultimately became the inevitable Rebel and self-worshipper of mythologies that begin with a transcendent unique Creator.*


 
I acknowledge the _flaw per se _in the use of extrinsic material but proof of a _Creator_'s existence can be gleaned from the mind of the author of the mythology. It can also be derived from this concept that a _Creator_ is an inexorable constituent of any _mythology_.

I find the most compelling argument for the existence of Eru to be through the events in which he himself _becomes_ present and through these _events_ he does, in the sense of Destiny and Fate, become _present _within Arda. Two of these events that have especial note is the _Fate of the Ring _and _The Drowning of Númenor_. Tolkien has this to say about the _Fate of the Ring _and Eru's involvement:



> _The Letters of JRR Tolkien_ - _#192__: From a letter to Amy Ronald_
> 
> *Frodo deserved all honour because he spent very drop of his power of will and body, and that was just sufficient to bring him to the destined point, and no further. The Other Power then took over: the Writer of the Story (by which I do not mean myself), 'that one ever-present Person who is never absent and never named'* ...*
> 
> **Actually referred to as the One...*


 
And I'm going to have to make a thread about this as the are many reasons why I consider PJ's _Fate of the Ring_ to be better than Tolkien's eek as it portrays the self-destructive nature of evil instead of the Predestined nature of Arda.

The other, _The Drowning of Númenor _was Eru's direct intervention:



> _The Letters of JRR Tolkien_ - _#211: To Rhona Beare_
> 
> *Sauron was first defeated by a 'miracle': a direct action of God the Creator [Eru], changing the fashion of the world, when appealed to by Manwë:...*


 
And for the textual evidence:



> _The Silmarillion: Akallabêth - The Downfall of Númenor_
> 
> *Then Manwë upon the Mountain called upon Ilúvatar, and for that time the Valar laid down their government of Arda. But Ilúvatar showed forth his power, and he changed the fashion of the world; and a great chasm opened in the sea between Númenor and the Deathless Lands, and the waters flowed down into it, and the noise and smoke of the cataracts went up to heaven, and the world was shaken.*


 
I personally find this enough to constitute the existence of Eru within Arda. There is another excerpt from _Morgoth's Ring_ that I also find to be quite blatant evidence of Ilúvatar's existence:



> _The History of Middle-earth X: Morgoth's Ring_ - _Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth: Appendix - 'The Converse of Manwë and Eru' and later conceptions of Elvish reincarnation_
> 
> *Manwë spoke to Eru, saying: 'Behold! an evil appears in Arda that we did not look for ...*
> *Eru answered: 'Let the houseless be re-housed!'*


 
But by playing Devil's Advocacy and the atheistic perspective one could use the convincing argument of Sauron's in his perversion of the Númenoreans to evil:



> _The Silmarillion: Akallabêth - The Downfall of Númenor_
> 
> *Then behind locked doors Sauron spoke to the King, and he lied, saying: 'It is he whose name is not now spoken; for the Valar have deceived you concerning him, putting forward the name of Eru, a phantom devised in the folly of their hearts, seeking to enchain Men in servitude to themselves. For they are the oracle of Eru, which speaks only what they will.*


 
However even Tolkien acknowledges this was a lie, and the direct intervention of Eru is punishment for the foolishness in the Númenoreans conversion to the Dark. Interestingly Tolkien also discusses Sauron's acknowledgement of Eru in _Myths Transformed_:



> _The History of Middle-earth X: Morgoth's Ring_ - _Myths Transformed: VII - Notes on motives in the Silmarillion: (i)_
> 
> *Sauron, could not, of course, be a 'sincere' atheist. Though one of the minor spirits created before the world, he knew Eru, according to his measure.*


 
I would likely conclude that is was through Eru's intervention in Eä is where his existence may be 'found'. As for worship of Eru and whether he _deserved _it. The Firstborn did not consider that Eru _deserved _it as they had no organized religion; but Tolkien still describes Men and Elves as monotheists in _Letters_. 

*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


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## Illuin (Feb 23, 2009)

> Originally posted by Ancalagon
> _The fables of men refer to a voice, but nothing material or tangible_
> _Who contrived the story of Ilúvatar and what is the evidence to support his existence?_


 
I would say that Elrond and Arwen qualify as _"material or tangible"_ evidence. Elrond and Arwen were living testaments of _Half-Elven_ that were given the (_*Divine*_) choice of Immortality or Mortality (unless one is of the 'conspiracy theory' type that believes Elrond and Arwen were perpetuating an old wives tale just for the fun of it). 

As Tolkien states; Ilúvatar alone had the power and authority to confer this choice:




> *Letter 153 - To Peter Hastings*
> 
> *As for 'whose authority decides these things?' [the 'choice' of the Half-Elven]. Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the Eruhíni (in whose conception and creation the Valar had no part at all) it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case: the cases of Lúthien (and Túor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God. The entering into Men of the Elven-strain is indeed represented as part of a Divine Plan for the ennoblement of the Human Race, from the beginning destined to replace the Elves.*


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## Úlairi (Feb 24, 2009)

Illuin said:


> I would say that Elrond and Arwen qualify as _"material or tangible"_ evidence. Elrond and Arwen were living testaments of _Half-Elven_ that were given the (_*Divine*_) choice of Immortality or Mortality (unless one is of the 'conspiracy theory' type that believes Elrond and Arwen were perpetuating an old wives tale just for the fun of it).
> 
> As Tolkien states; Ilúvatar alone had the power and authority to confer this choice:


 
The _Statute of Finwë and Míriel_, _The Divine Choice of the Half-elven_, The _Akallabêth_ and _The Fate of the Ring_... I say tomàto; you say tomäto. 

*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


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