# Rings of Power Stuff



## Halasían (Aug 17, 2022)

Trailer, Interview with some of the cast, and air dates for season 1. Enjoy.












Amazon Prime Video announced today that two episodes of _The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power_ will premiere on Sept. 1 and 2 (depending on time zone). The rest of the episodes will follow a weekly, single-episode rollout.

The episodes will launch at the same time around the world, so that all fans can experience them simultaneously. The finale of the eight-episode first season will air on Oct. 14.

Here’s how the premiere will rollout worldwide:

6 p.m. PDT — Thursday, September 1
9 p.m. EDT — Thursday, September 1
10 p.m. Brazil — Thursday, September 1
2 a.m. UK — Friday, September 2
3 a.m. Central European Summer Time — Friday, September 2
5:30 a.m. India Standard Time — Friday, September 2
10 a.m. Japan Standard Time — Friday, September 2
11 a.m. Australia — Friday, September 2
1 p.m. New Zealand — Friday, September 2

______________________________________________________________________

Edit - October 27 2022

Since it isn't worth bothering to engage with people here on this site about the Pings of Power show, I'll just edit my review I wrote up on another site here to prevent bumping the thread and stirring up a whole new round of shist.


(I wrote this up on another Lord of the Rings Fanatics Plaza and thought I'd also present it here. Credit to Boromir88 for starting the review thread there with the catagories: Visuals/Special effects, Costumes/Make-up, Acting, Plot, Writing/Dialogue, Music, Themes/Motifs, and Overall.)


I'll be brief with each category for now... full of spoilers... I'll likely revisit this and make edits on occasion as I dwell more on the season after a binge re-watch through all 8 episodes back-to-back.


*Visuals/Special effects* - *A-*. I think they captured the look and feel of Middle Earth in general, with Numenor and Khazad Dum the stars of the presentation. I will put this in the 'visuals' .... Charles Edwards is a wonderful actor and he is doing a great job of presenting Celebrimbor, he _does not_ have the look of the Celebrimbor that is in my head-canon. It is one of the big negatives I have with the visuals so I mention it here. It's is along the lines of Liv Tyler not appearing as the Arwen of my head canon.

*Costumes/Make-up* - *B*. It is weighted on an 'overall' scale as some I thought was really good, and a few things I thought was not-so-good. First some of the not-so-good. In agreement with Melahny, the elf-ears are a weak-link especially coupled with the short hair. The only one that it really works with is Arondir. Also, some of the armour looked rather pedestrian. On the plus side, they portrayed the Dwarves really well, especially both Durins. I liked the guild emblems of Numenor, and I liked how Galadriel, Mariel, Elendil, and Farien were portrayed. A big plus for me is the Orcs... Uruks. Much more menacing than the PJ Orcs! They captured them well. Overall, they captured the essence with most of the costuming.

*Acting* - *B*. There are some stellar scenes, and some are doing much better than others. I think a lot of the negatives I have pertain more to the script writing than the actor's themselves. The acting standouts for me are the characters Durin III, Durin IV, Arondir, Mariel, and Elendil. Honorable mentions are Pharazon, Adar, Theo, and Galadriel. I'm fairly neutral on the rest. The actors and the acting is good, but is hindered by the scripts they are handed. I look beyond the accents used just as I look beyond the heritage of the actors.

*Plot* - *C*. I found the plot somewhat rudderless as if the showrunners were themselves floundering with what direction to take, especially in the first few episodes. The whole of the sea scenes where Galadriel gets on board to Valinor, then jumps off far to the west is a total cringeworthy 'WTH' moment for me. I 'get' what they were trying to set up, but that was just outright bad along the lines of Arwen catching Aragorn out in the wild at unawares. Add to that Halbarand and Co out floating on wreckage without much of any explanation as to 'why' they were out there, and the who/what/why/how the 'Corsairs' were out raiding ships in the Sundering Seas, really had me shaking my head. In the end it was used to bring Galadriel and 'Halbarand' to Numenor. Also, another cringeworthy 'WTH' moment for me was/is the whole 'Mithril' being needed to 'save' the elves. I will give credit to the whole good/evil battle of the tree creating mithril as a neat fan-ficcy tale, but that whole Elf-Mithril connection storyline was a bit rough to take. Also, with the Balrog scene in the depths of Khazad Dum, I'm really hoping that they don't bring it in too soon, which it is appearing they will do.

*Writing/Dialogue* - *D+*. This is where a lot of it falls down for me. I could go into this rather deep, but will just say that lines like Galadriel saying to Elrond when he tells her to put up her sword 'Without it, what am I to be', and Bronwyn's whole offhanded 'I'll go with you' when Arondir says he is going off east. Another crappy portrayal was the whole "fight" with the Ice Troll. Galadriel's 'squad' looked pretty useless as they got kicked around much like Gondor's soldiers in the battle of Osgiliath in PJ's project. Galadriel comes and PJ Legolas-like, saves the day singlehandedly, complete with sword-spin when she is done, and oh look... it seems all the squad is back standing around again. I mention Peter Jackson's film projects here, because the writing of rings of Power seems to love giving hat-tips to those projects with their fancy Legoladriel footwork, dropping orc-heads in front of people, and finding a Viggo lookalike actor for Halbarand. I get they are trying to do fan service with all this, but it falls flat, and the fans of PJ will only point out that they are 'copying the master' or something. It is my hope that the showrunners give up on trying to incorporate so much fan-service and do their own thing (within the lore if not canon), for better or worse. One of the plusses is the usually-mentions of characters and moments in the Tolkien lore. Feanor and the Silmarils, Anarion (though they seem to allude that he is the 'older' brother to Isildur and Farien), and the visuals of the Two Trees of Valinor in the 1st episode.

*Music* - *A*. I find no real flaws with it, and I did enjoy Fiona Apple's singing 'Where The Shadows Lie' at the end of the last episode very nice!

*Themes/Motifs* - *C-ish*. Not sure which way to go with this. It sort of rolls into the whole 'visuals' thing. They done wonderfully with Numenor, though I would have liked to see it a bit 'grander' and the ships bigger and more plentiful. Since the timelines are all distorted, I would love to see their shipbuilding yards in Middle Earth (Lond Daer, etc.) and with the mention of Pelargir at the end of the last episode, there is a possibility they might allude more to this? The reason I think it would be good is to demonstrate the strengthening of Numenor, and the reason I think they won't is they seemed to have ingrained in the earlier episodes that going to Middle Earth was something Numenor didn't like doing.

*Overall* - *6.5/10*. I debated giving it a 7 but so much of it was quite rough. The whole 'The Sea Is Always Right' lameness cost it a half-point. You may note that I have left out the whole Harfoot story in my summary. The reason is I thought it was to me it was a bit of a sideshow to the whole telling of the rest of the tale. The whole storyline would be a wonderful story on its own, but it is a bit rough at this point merging it in with the rest of what was presented. I know the whole 'meteor man' story is incorporated into it and they are alluding to it being Gandalf, but when he was using his powers in that last episode, he had an eerie 'Christopher Lee' look to him. It is my hope that it would be Radagast as they could do more with his backstory. Saruman would be a decent choice as they could portray that he was initially good. The whole 'watcher' bit I feel was a missed opportunity for the show to show some depth in the 'wizard' storyline, but I'll get more into that another time as I digress here. Overall, I thought the show was a reasonable effort in portrayal while adhering to the restraints put on them by the limitations of source material, the setting in the 2nd Age, and the individual approvals needed from the Tolkien Estate for stretching the boundaries.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Aug 17, 2022)

Halasían said:


> Trailer, Interview with some of the cast, and air dates for season 1. Enjoy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks, I'm looking forward to watching this whether it's very Tolkienish or not, I think it will be a decent fantasy series.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 17, 2022)

Thanks for this. Whether I watch it or not, or whether it is very Tolkien or not, I am glad to have the info-- and the trailers have been very good.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 17, 2022)

From the little I've read, the first two episodes will be a sort of "movie". It will be interesting to see if that means a self-contained story-arc, with perhaps one or more cliffhangers. They have a lot of characters to introduce; I wonder how many will be included?


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## Ent (Aug 17, 2022)

Pencils and papers out, students, and be prepared for a test afterward..!


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 17, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> Pencils and papers out, students, and be prepared for a test afterward..!


Hmm... I will be attentive to studying!


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## Ealdwyn (Aug 17, 2022)

I may need therapy afterwards


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 17, 2022)

Afterwards what?


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## Ent (Aug 17, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> I may need therapy afterwards



I have some references and phone numbers available. 
(Aspirin and other pain killers too, if needed, along with a few natural forest products, of course.)

I suggest a decent Ent-draught or two in advance, if there is concern. (On the other hand, this could be the WORST idea...!)


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## Randyboy10 (Aug 17, 2022)

My main concern is all the non-Tolkien character additions. Can you imagine if any of them are close to be as horrifically portrayed and story-lined as Tauriel in PJ's Hobbit debacle?!


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## arivista (Aug 18, 2022)

Modern cinema has made my imagination pretty vivid in this respect, so, sadly, I can _imagine _them making Tauriel look like tolkienesque masterpiece in comparison...


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## Halasían (Aug 22, 2022)

Premiere viewing of the first two episodes in some theatres worldwide. They were free and were gobbled up quite quickly. I pondered making an attempt for our local which meant I would have to be ready at 2AM local time, but decided not to because I'm sure there will be a minority of the ticket-grabbers only doing so to disrupt the presentations. I will enjoy the premiere in the comfort of my own home.


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## Ent (Aug 23, 2022)

Halasían said:


> Premiere viewing of the first two episodes in some theatres worldwide. They were free and were gobbled up quite quickly. I pondered making an attempt for our local which meant I would have to be ready at 2AM local time, but decided not to because I'm sure there will be a minority of the ticket-grabbers only doing so to disrupt the presentations. I will enjoy the premiere in the comfort of my own home.



The wisdom of the Dúnedain...!


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## Halasían (Aug 23, 2022)

My wife (Elora) and I talked about it as it is sort of our 'thing' going to these events. We attended 'Trilogy Tuesday' December 16 2003 to watch the three Lord of the Rings movies back to back, and we went to see each of the Hobbit films at a free pre-screening, so thought this would be fun. Decided it best to not go for the above reason.


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## Ent (Aug 23, 2022)

Well, I can but say I think your mutual choice very wise.
If you're not cautious, you will bring me to say some very true but uncomfortable things here about what I believe the race of Men has descended into, given their complete lack of courtesy and consideration toward others, respect for their fellow man, and much, much more.

(And remember, if an Ent says anything worthwhile, it's worth taking a long time to say..! 😁)

So I'll just stick with "good choice sir Halasían."


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## Halasían (Aug 23, 2022)

I bow before you Old Tree..

I do love this picture!


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## Ent (Aug 23, 2022)

An interesting picture indeed.

I see some of my former friends rolled up, stuck on the shelves, and hanging about.

I do hope those windows are not opened too often, and the room is climate controlled. Even in their death, I would like to see the uses for which they were destroyed having a long life.

The broadsword to the right looks like it would take a wielder of some strength and endurance to handle for any length of time. Its scabbard appears to be of some distinction and well preserved too. I wonder what stories it has to tell.

They both seem fascinated by that feather (pen?) she is holding. 
One must wonder at the scene from which this is taken.

I find the light fixture intriguing. It would seem difficult to stuff candles into... i wonder if they had electricity laid in instead.


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## Ealdwyn (Aug 23, 2022)

Halasían said:


> I do love this picture!
> 
> View attachment 15125



Nice pic, except.... er.... is that suppose to be Galadriel? Because that looks very like a Feanorian star...


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## Ent (Aug 23, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> Nice pic, except.... er.... is that suppose to be Galadriel? Because that looks very like a Feanorian star...
> 
> View attachment 15126



maybe we can just play like it's some token recovered from a troll cave somewhere at some point by someone, passed along and eventually stuck in this old historical archival room for memory's sake.


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## Ealdwyn (Aug 23, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> maybe we can just play like it's some token recovered from a troll cave somewhere at some point by someone, passed along and eventually stuck in this old historical archival room for memory's sake.


Or maybe we can just play like Amaz*n decided to use a pretty star picture without caring to research what it meant or that fact that Galadriel and Feanor were't exactly best buddies?


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## Ent (Aug 23, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> Or maybe we can just play like Amaz*n decided to use a pretty star picture without caring to research what it meant or that fact that Galadriel and Feanor were't exactly best buddies?



We could, but personally I prefer to take a more positive view of things.


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## Ealdwyn (Aug 23, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> We could, but personally I prefer to take a more positive view of things.


But which is more likely?


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## Ent (Aug 23, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> But which is more likely?



_It is a capital mistake to theorize before you have all the evidence. It biases the judgment.’_ ................ Sherlock Holmes


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## Ealdwyn (Aug 23, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> _It is a capital mistake to theorize before you have all the evidence. It biases the judgment.’_ ................ Sherlock Holmes


The evidence would suggest they either a) didn't read the book, or b) didn't care. Possibly both.


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## Ent (Aug 23, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> The evidence would suggest they either a) didn't read the book, or b) didn't care. Possibly both.


It is certainly a possibility.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Aug 23, 2022)

All sold out in my area or I'd be there in a flash


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## Tar-Elenion (Aug 23, 2022)

The six rayed star is the Star of Earendil


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 23, 2022)

Halasían said:


> I'm sure there will be a minority of the ticket-grabbers only doing so to disrupt the presentations. I will enjoy the premiere in the comfort of my own home.


OTOH, you could have enjoyed hearing the majority telling them to shut up.


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## Halasían (Aug 23, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> Nice pic, except.... er.... is that suppose to be Galadriel? Because that looks very like a Feanorian star...
> 
> View attachment 15126


Yeah yeah yeah, we get it. You think it sux because ... yadda yadda...'Amazon' ... yadda yadda.

Standing in a room with an emblem is a pretty far reach to get to that. 


Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> OTOH, you could have enjoyed hearing the majority telling them to shut up.


Yeah, but it wouldn't be preferred on my first watch.


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## Ealdwyn (Aug 23, 2022)

Halasían said:


> Yeah yeah yeah, we get it. You think it sux because ... yadda yadda...'Amazon' ... yadda yadda.


No. I think it will suck because 

Amaz*n has no respect for Tolkien's life's work and will twist it into something unrecognisable just so Bez*s can have his very own GoT rip-off.
Bez*s and Amaz*n are morally bankrupt hypocrites for trading on the diversity card and calling fans racist for not buying into this manure, when the company has been shown to have an appalling record on human rights and exploitation around the world, which is the basis of Bez*s' immense wealth. I'm not allowed to go into detail here because No Politik Allowed. Google it.
But from your comment I guess you don't think either of those are problematic?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 23, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> No Politik Allowed


Correct. So don't press the Rulz, plz.


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## Olorgando (Aug 23, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Ealdwyn said:
> 
> 
> > No Politik Allowed.
> ...


What are the rules on white-collar crime? 👿


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## Erestor Arcamen (Aug 23, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> What are the rules on white-collar crime? 👿


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## Olorgando (Aug 23, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> Olorgando said:
> 
> 
> > What are the rules on white-collar crime? 👿


How things change ...


Erestor Arcamen said:


> Yup, we're on owner #3 as far as I know and this one has shown great interest in making TTF more lively and active. So glad, I was getting bored not having to moderate anyone since yinz all behave so well


As to that rolling pin ... I still have a 34-inch, 33-ounce wooden Adirondack baseball bat (from my high school days so pre-1973). Ya don't really want to head-to head with that ...


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## Erestor Arcamen (Aug 23, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> How things change ...
> 
> As to that rolling pin ... I still have a 34-inch, 33-ounce wooden Adirondack baseball bat (from my high school days so pre-1973). Ya don't really want to head-to head with that ...


 I do miss the pre-ROP days, it was a lot less busy on the mod side lol


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 23, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> Ya don't really want to head-to head with that ...


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## pippin le qer (Aug 23, 2022)

arivista said:


> Modern cinema has made my imagination pretty vivid in this respect, so, sadly, I can _imagine _them making Tauriel look like tolkienesque masterpiece in comparison...


At least Tauriel, although not canonical, did not look dirt cheap. which is the impression got from the trailers of even the canonical characters.


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## Halasían (Aug 24, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> No. I think it will suck because
> 
> Amaz*n has no respect for Tolkien's life's work and will twist it into something unrecognisable just so Bez*s can have his very own GoT rip-off.
> Bez*s and Amaz*n are morally bankrupt hypocrites for trading on the diversity card and calling fans racist for not buying into this manure, when the company has been shown to have an appalling record on human rights and exploitation around the world, which is the basis of Bez*s' immense wealth. I'm not allowed to go into detail here because No Politik Allowed. Google it.
> But from your comment I guess you don't think either of those are problematic?


Nope. I use Amazon Prime for other TV content and for free shipping, and will watch Rings of Power and will likely enjoy it.
You're posting this sort of proves my point in relation to trying to talk about the Rings of Power series here on TTF though, so thanks for that. 
Now that this thread is well and truly derailed, I'll start another one next time.


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## Ent (Aug 24, 2022)

I wonder if the race of man realizes that the most divisive religion in the world today is the Religion of Opinion?


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## Olorgando (Aug 24, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> I wonder if the race of man realizes that the most divisive religion in the world today is the Religion of Opinion?


It may seem so in the few places where opinions can still go head-to-head.
I personally see much huger swaths of humanity being subjected to something for which the German language has the ugly term "Gleichschaltung" ... 👿


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## Berzelmayr (Aug 24, 2022)

How do you guys like the new wargs? (that means if they are actually wargs at all)


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## Ent (Aug 24, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> It may seem so in the few places where opinions can still go head-to-head.
> I personally see much huger swaths of humanity being subjected to something for which the German language has the ugly term "Gleichschaltung" ... 👿



Gleichschaltung - interpreted in one place as: "the standardization of political, economic, and social institutions as carried out in authoritarian states"
Appropos in its ultimate and final expression..!! And indeed "opinion" that demands "conformity" is exactly that. "You WILL standardize to MY opinon." 

May it never be... and yet... and yet... 

But enough of this here. It borders on a political discussion methinks.



Berzelmayr said:


> How do you guys like the new wargs? (that means if they are actually wargs at all)
> 
> View attachment 15142



Their faces are somewhat reminiscent of those of the Skeksis etc. in The Dark Krystal.


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## Radaghast (Aug 24, 2022)

Berzelmayr said:


> How do you guys like the new wargs? (that means if they are actually wargs at all)
> 
> View attachment 15142


The design looks pretty awful to me.


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## arivista (Aug 24, 2022)

I don't know, I have always imagined wargs as big, talking wolves, nothing more. It may have been influenced by the fact that wolf in Czech is "vlk" and warg was turned into "vrrk" in the Czech translation. So even the word gave me impression of a warg just as bigger, more ferocious intelligent wolf. Personally I don't see any reason why make them look so different from ordinary wolves. That goes for all movies warg depiction.


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## Olorgando (Aug 24, 2022)

Berzelmayr said:


> How do you guys like the new wargs? (that means if they are actually wargs at all)
> 
> View attachment 15142


Wargs???
I immediately dug out the DVD I have of the BBC popular science documentary "Walking with Beasts" (2001), and yes, there they are, on the cover, the entelodonts, which went extinct perhaps 19 million years ago. Looking like huge boars (in the BBC episode 3 of the series they are one-ton hulks with the "social graces" of an *extremely* ill-tempered Tasmanian Devil - which is about the size of a pug), they are more closely related to hippos and whales than to pigs. Well, the LoTR "wargs" looked more like huge ancient hyenas ... looks like PJ's much maligned TH at least managed to make the wargs look more like the wolves they are clearly meant to be than (his own) predecessor and AP's successor. But to get these critters to look so much like entelodonts, someone at Amazon must have at least a passing knowledge of paleontology ...


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## Ent (Aug 24, 2022)

arivista said:


> I don't know, I have always imagined wargs as big, talking wolves, nothing more. It may have been influenced by the fact that wolf in Czech is "vlk" and warg was turned into "vrrk" in the Czech translation. So even the word gave me impression of a warg just as bigger, more ferocious intelligent wolf. Personally I don't see any reason why make them look so different from ordinary wolves. That goes for all movies warg depiction.



"But even the wild *Wargs* (for so the evil *wolves* over the Edge of the Wild were named) cannot climb trees." The Hobbit

"Then they often got the *Wargs* to help and shared the plunder with them. Sometimes they rode on *wolves* like men do on horses. Now it seemed that a great goblin-raid had been planned for that very night. The *Wargs* had come to meet the goblins and the goblins were late." The Hobbit

‘It is howling with *wolf*-voices. The *Wargs* have come west of the Mountains!’ LoTR


I do not know of anywhere else that we have a definition of the Wargs. 
Nor do I see that there's a reason to consider them as anything other than "the evil wolves" as they are defined.
Maybe bigger. Certainly given to evil. And said to "run swifter than a pony". (TH).
But that's about it.
They seem equal to Tolkien.

So that's been my impression too...


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## Radaghast (Aug 24, 2022)

arivista said:


> I don't know, I have always imagined wargs as big, talking wolves, nothing more. It may have been influenced by the fact that wolf in Czech is "vlk" and warg was turned into "vrrk" in the Czech translation. So even the word gave me impression of a warg just as bigger, more ferocious intelligent wolf. Personally I don't see any reason why make them look so different from ordinary wolves. That goes for all movies warg depiction.


That's all wargs are, evil wolves. And while I appreciate the sentiment of not wanting to cast wolves in an evil light that doesn't excuse the bad design. These make the wargs in PeeJay's movie look halfway decent.



Olorgando said:


> Wargs???
> I immediately dug out the DVD I have of the BBC popular science documentary "Walking with Beasts" (2001), and yes, there they are, on the cover, the entelodonts, which went extinct perhaps 19 million years ago. Looking like huge boars (in the BBC episode 3 of the series they are one-ton hulks with the "social graces" of an *extremely* ill-tempered Tasmanian Devil - which is about the size of a pug), they are more closely related to hippos and whales that to pigs. Well, the LoTR "wargs" looked more like huge ancient hyenas ... looks like PJ's much maligned TH at least managed to make the wargs look more like the wolves they are clearly meant to be than (his own) predecessor and AP's successor. But to get these critters to look so much like entelodonts, someone at Amazon must have at least a passing knowledge of paleontology ...


Yes, I can see now these creatures have hooves, like certain extinct predators such as Andrewsarchus or Daenodon.


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## arivista (Aug 24, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> And while I appreciate the sentiment of not wanting to cast wolves in an evil light that doesn't excuse the bad design.


I don‘t know, so far the movies have portrayed them as pretty mindless creatures, very animal-like in all aspects. They were „evil“ because they were a threat to the protagonist, but I don‘t think ordinary viewers saw them on the same level of „moral evil“ as is linked with Orcs. They were just _used_ by evil. This is how they seemed to me in the movies.

I don’t think it is that difficult to make wolf-like wargs not seem the same as regular wolves. The size itself helps a lot. Direwolves in GoT looked very wolfy-like, yet I think it was pretty clear they are quite distinctive. (BTW, direwolf in Czech is translated literally as „evilwolf“.)


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## Ealdwyn (Aug 24, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> It may seem so in the few places where opinions can still go head-to-head.
> I personally see much huger swaths of humanity being subjected to something for which the German language has the ugly term "Gleichschaltung" ... 👿


Indeed. Denying people the right to express their opinions is the first step on a slippery slope.


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## Ent (Aug 24, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> Indeed. Denying people the right to express their opinions is the first step on a slippery slope.



Indeed. There is a ditch on either side of this road.

To deny the expression of opinion is autocratic.
To insist on conformity to one's opinion is tyrannical.

"What a world, what a world..." (The Wicked Witch of the West in the 1939 version of Wizard of Oz.)


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## d4rk3lf (Aug 24, 2022)

They looked like giant aardvarks to me.  

And yes, like Olorgando said, it immediately reminds of the beasts from documentary "Walking with Beasts". 
They are actually pretty much identical.


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## Radaghast (Aug 24, 2022)

arivista said:


> I don’t think it is that difficult to make wolf-like wargs not seem the same as regular wolves. The size itself helps a lot. Direwolves in GoT looked very wolfy-like, yet I think it was pretty clear they are quite distinctive. (BTW, direwolf in Czech is translated literally as „evilwolf“.)


I agree. I think the designers saw some prehistoric, hooved predator and based this creature, whatever it is, on that.

I think this is a Daenodon skull.






And it's sort of similar to the creatures pictured at top, except the fictional creatures have snouts that look weak and ill-formed.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Aug 24, 2022)

Berzelmayr said:


> How do you guys like the new wargs? (that means if they are actually wargs at all)
> 
> View attachment 15142


The snout kind of reminds me of Alf 🤣


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 24, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> The design looks pretty awful to me.


As opposed to . . . ?🤔


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## Radaghast (Aug 24, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> As opposed to . . . ?🤔
> View attachment 15150


That's not a design so much as a concept. A bad one, of course.


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## Eljorahir (Aug 24, 2022)

Berzelmayr said:


> How do you guys like the new wargs? (that means if they are actually wargs at all)
> 
> View attachment 15142


Cloven hooves, upturned tusks...I thought ferocious wild boar things!



Berzelmayr said:


> How do you guys like the new wargs? (that means if they are actually wargs at all)
> 
> View attachment 15142



This clip is from the Game Cam on my property in Missouri:


----------



## Ent (Aug 24, 2022)

Eljorahir said:


> Cloven hooves, upturned tusks...I thought ferocious wild boar things!
> 
> 
> 
> This clip is from the Game Cam on my property in Missouri:



Yes, it seems possible that the concept behind "Wargs" for this was some kind of corruption between the Canine and the Suidae. 
If one looks at the teeth in the mouth of the beast with its jaws hanging open for review, one sees quite an admixture that are neither Suidae nor Canine however, but a mixture almost including those of the human premolars and even molars. 

It is an amazing feat, whatever has been done.


----------



## Eljorahir (Aug 24, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> Yes, it seems possible that the concept behind "Wargs" for this was some kind of corruption between the Canine and the Suidae.
> If one looks at the teeth in the mouth of the beast with its jaws hanging open for review, one sees quite an admixture that are neither Suidae nor Canine however, but a mixture almost including those of the human premolars and even molars.
> 
> It is an amazing feat, whatever has been done.


hmmm...research mode...

_Suidae is a family of* artiodactyl mammals* which are _*commonly called pigs, hogs or swine.*

This forum is quite educational. Thanks!


----------



## Ent (Aug 24, 2022)

Eljorahir said:


> hmmm...research mode...
> 
> _Suidae is a family of* artiodactyl mammals* which are _*commonly called pigs, hogs or swine.*
> 
> This forum is quite educational. Thanks!



It is why people in days of yore used to call their pigs in for feeding with "Sui" "Sui" "Sui" - though frequently spelled differently. (As "suey, suey, suey".)

And I guess to take it one step further, the tusks of the pictured 'wargs' are not very pronounced... more in line with the common hog of the Suidae family, than of the Boar/Wild Boar group which are quite pronounced.

Now there's some additional trivia for the trash bin..! ☺️


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## Halasían (Aug 26, 2022)

And now this from that paid Amazon Shill Neil Gaiman...


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## Ealdwyn (Aug 26, 2022)

Halasían said:


> And now this from that paid Amazon Shill Neil Gaiman...


So it was "fun" and the sort of thing he wanted as a schoolboy. Hmmm.

As for a shill: I have a lot of respect for NG, but let's not forget that he's been on the Amaz*n payroll in the past and probably will be again.


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## Halasían (Aug 26, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> So it was "fun" and the sort of thing he wanted as a schoolboy. Hmmm.
> 
> As for a shill: I have a lot of respect for NG, but let's not forget that he's been on the Amaz*n payroll in the past and probably will be again.


So, anyone who says anything even remotely positive about this series is a 'Amazon Shill' ... got it. too funny... 🤣


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## Ealdwyn (Aug 27, 2022)

Halasían said:


> So, anyone who says anything even remotely positive about this series is a 'Amazon Shill' ... got it. too funny... 🤣


Not what I said. And "shill" was your word, not mine


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## Halasían (Aug 27, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> Not what I said. And "shill" was your word, not mine.


Right. You said:


Ealdwyn said:


> So it was "fun" and the sort of thing he wanted as a schoolboy. Hmmm.
> 
> As for a shill: I have a lot of respect for NG, but *let's not forget that he's been on the Amaz*n payroll in the past and probably will be again.*


Just so we're straight there.


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## Halasían (Aug 27, 2022)

Here is the final trailer for Rings of Power.


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## Halasían (Aug 27, 2022)

Rings of Power in 8K

That would be awesome to see. Unfortunately I'm not that far advanced in my tech.


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## Ealdwyn (Aug 27, 2022)

Halasían said:


> Just so we're straight there.


I really don't see what your point is.

Let me clarify for you in very simple language:
It's a matter of fact that NG has been on the Amaz*n payroll. He's had more than one of his books adapted for TV by Amaz*n and others adapted for audiobooks by them. Amaz*n pay him for that, hence he's been on their payroll. This is in no way a criticism of NG, it's simply a matter of fact that he has been paid by them for adapting his work.

It's not good business sense to appear critical of a company that you may wish to do business with again in the future. So when he's asked directly what he thinks of RoP he has to be diplomatic in his response, _whatever he might think of it. _Here says that it's a "fun" TV series that he would have liked to watch as a kid.

In my opinion, to say that an (allegedly) serious fantasy epic that is costing many millions of dollars is, effectively, 'kid's stuff' is damning with faint praise. Of course, this is only my interpretation. But it's a very interesting use of words by NG, don't you think? A well-respected author of many, many fantasy novels didn't say it's the sort of thing he'd watch now, as an adult - he said it's what he'd watch as a kid. Draw your own conclusions.

It's worthing noting at this point how much Amazon have riding on this "kid's stuff"



But I guess some people are going to love anything with the LotR label attached to it, no matter how dreadful it is. Enjoy!


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## Halasían (Aug 27, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> I guess some people are going to love anything with the LotR label attached to it, no matter how dreadful it is. Enjoy!


I will. 👍👏👌✌️
You 'don't enjoy'.


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## d4rk3lf (Aug 27, 2022)

Halasían said:


> Rings of Power in 8K
> 
> That would be awesome to see. Unfortunately I'm not that far advanced in my tech.


LOL 
Awesome. 
Let's release ROP in 8k, and let's hope nobody will notice, lack of character development, story, smart dialogues, cinematography, lore, etc, while looking at sharp detailed nasal hair in 8k, of the meteor Gandalf.


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## Elthir (Aug 27, 2022)

Wait! Tolkien never described any of his characters as having nasal hair!


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 27, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> LOL
> Awesome.
> Let's release ROP in 8k, and let's hope nobody will notice, lack of character development, story, smart dialogues, cinematography, lore, etc, while looking at sharp detailed nasal hair in 8k, of the meteor Gandalf.


Wow -- how did you manage to see it?


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## Olorgando (Aug 27, 2022)

Elthir said:


> Wait! Tolkien never described any of his characters as having nasal hair!


You're probably right, though I must confess nasal hair has never popped up on my "to explore" list ... 🥶🥶

... but then consider all of the stuff PJ stuffed his six films with that JRRT never described ... JRRT "having described" is apparently not on the agenda ... 🤬


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## Erestor Arcamen (Aug 27, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Wow -- how did you manage to see it?


Amazing how there's such deep criticism for something we've only seen trailers and YouTube hacks talking about so far.

I'm all for criticisms once it's out and people who criticize have actually seen it but a person has no business with that if you don't even watch the thing. There are lots of shows and movies I've never seen so obviously have no business complaining or criticizing them...


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## d4rk3lf (Aug 27, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> Amazing how there's such deep criticism for something we've only seen trailers and YouTube hacks talking about so far.



I've said it in a more of a joke manner.  
Relax. 

I really wish series to be great for all of us, and I don't approve many youtube channels just plain hating it (as you said: without seeing it). 
However, there's been 4-5 trailers so far, and many images, and that is enough for some of us, to show our fear on what series might become. 

I repeat, I'd be very glad to be proven wrong for any of my fear.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Aug 27, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> I've said it in a more of a joke manner.
> Relax.
> 
> I really wish series to be great for all of us, and I don't approve many youtube channels just plain hating it (as you said: without seeing it).
> ...


And I'm sorry, I didn't mean that to mock you or something. It just annoys me when there are people posting as if they've seen the whole series. I hope it's good too and will watch it but I will also criticize it if it's not good.


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## Ealdwyn (Aug 27, 2022)

I am dreading it


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## Erestor Arcamen (Aug 27, 2022)

More positive reviews!








Lord Of The Rings: The Rings Of Power Reactions Are All Saying The Same Thing


The early reactions for The Rings of Power are out, and everyone is saying the same exact thing about this new series.




www.giantfreakinrobot.com


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 27, 2022)

Maybe they're all shills?

This article identifies some of the publications:









The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power First Reactions: 'A Spectacular Sight To Behold,' Critics Say


"Rings of Power" is a win for Prime Video, critics say on social media. Epic visuals and exceptional performances make this a must-watch for Tolkien fans, old and new; though, the slow story pace may be a deal-breaker for some viewers.




editorial.rottentomatoes.com


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## Halasían (Aug 27, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> Amazing how there's such deep criticism for something we've only seen trailers and YouTube hacks talking about so far.
> 
> I'm all for criticisms once it's out and people who criticize have actually seen it but a person has no business with that if you don't even watch the thing. There are lots of shows and movies I've never seen so obviously have no business complaining or criticizing them...


They can't help themselves Erestor.


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## Ealdwyn (Aug 28, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> More positive reviews!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I must admit they do sound positive. But I'm concerned that there are no reviews comparing it favourably to Tolkien's work, they only compare it to PJ's films.
In any case, it's not long before we'll be able to judge for ourselves.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 28, 2022)




----------



## Erestor Arcamen (Aug 28, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> And there you go with those "fact" things AGAIN..!
> Good grief, a little restraint please?? 😁


I know, I really should stop I guess 🥹


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 28, 2022)

So, now people are going to wonder why I posted a picture of rhinos. . .


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## Ent (Aug 28, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> So, now people are going to wonder why I posted a picture of rhinos. . .



Or not. 😁


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 28, 2022)

True-- I guess people are used to my random posts by now.🤪


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 28, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> True-- I guess people are used to my random posts by now.🤪


Indeed. I think we all have become accustomed to it.


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## Elthir (Aug 28, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> True-- I guess people are used to my random posts by now.🤪



I can't now recall if there was anyone else involved in this mystery.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 28, 2022)




----------



## d4rk3lf (Aug 28, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> True-- I guess people are used to my random posts by now.🤪



Indeed, but gravity is not the only force in the world:


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## Erestor Arcamen (Aug 28, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> View attachment 15329


Ugh Miller Lite? 🤢


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 28, 2022)

Cats have no taste in beer.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Aug 28, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Cats have no taste in beer.


Clearly


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## Ealdwyn (Aug 28, 2022)

I'm just wondering how it'll get the cap off without opposable thumbs


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 28, 2022)




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## Ent (Aug 28, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Cats have no taste in beer.


that's good because i suspect i'd dislike a beer that tasted like cat.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 28, 2022)

No, the beer's _in _the _cat_ -- not t'other way round.


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## Olorgando (Aug 28, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> No, the beer's _in _the cat -- not t'other way round.
> View attachment 15335


Has anyone seen the 1974 South African nature documentary "Animals Are Beautiful People"? From Wikipedia (this being a criticism of the film):

"One scene depicts baboons, elephants, giraffes, warthogs and other African animals eating rotten, fermented fruit of the Marula tree. The animals are then intoxicated, and they stagger around to comic effect, before nightfall comes and they fall asleep. In the morning, we see one baboon wake up, disheveled, next to a warthog, and quietly exit the burrow, as not to wake her."

Quite a few of those animals definitely had a hangover next day. Even in the wild ...


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 28, 2022)

Savages. Unlike our civilized domestic tabbies.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 28, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> No, the beer's _in _the cat -- not t'other way round.
> View attachment 15335


Confusticating...


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 28, 2022)




----------



## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 28, 2022)

It's Bree Proper, yes?


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## Erestor Arcamen (Aug 29, 2022)

First Reviews Of LotR Rings of Power: "This Series Is… - Sd Pict


Amazon's LotR: Rings of Power has now been shown to critics, and they largely agree that it's very good. But are these critics to be trusted? And what will




sdpict.com


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## Halasían (Aug 29, 2022)

Nice to see this back on topic! 


I read a bunch of reviews from regular people who saw the first two episodes over on Hall of Fire. Generally positive, with some technical and visual complaints. The nice thing was they had gotten past the usual 'Amazon' arguments against Rings of Power and actually talked about what was seen.

And sure, bring the complaints and grumbling AFTER you see it. it's what was the norm for the PJ projects.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 29, 2022)

What a difference two decades of Internet makes.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 29, 2022)

Halasían said:


> The nice thing was they had gotten past the usual 'Amazon' arguments against Rings of Power and actually talked about what was seen.


I agree with this. Judge the content, not by it's creator but by what is actually there.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 29, 2022)

One thing I find curious in the article EA linked: the "editoriel(sic) staff" says:

"The marketing just never looked authentically like Tolkien’s world"

I've seen similar comments in other articles and YouTube rants so generously supplied by some of our members; my question is, how did these people come by their knowledge of what Tolkien's world "authentically" looks like? Their heads? The movies? Ouija boards?


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## Ealdwyn (Aug 29, 2022)

Loathe as I am to drag this subject up again, but it seems that a certain author currently has _another_ of his novels in production to be made into a series by Amaz*n. I'm just speculating that that may have a bearing on his show of support for RoP.


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## Halasían (Aug 29, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> One thing I find curious in the article EA linked: the "editoriel(sic) staff" says:
> 
> "The marketing just never looked authentically like Tolkien’s world"
> 
> I've seen similar comments in other articles and YouTube rants so generously supplied by some of our members; my question is, how did these people come by their knowledge of what Tolkien's world "authentically" looks like? Their heads? The movies? Ouija boards?


Exactly. It's their own 'head-canon' really.


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## Barrow Wight (Aug 30, 2022)

Maybe these are Sauron's werewolves---but that would be the First Age. Didn't the werewolves do in one of Galadriel's brothers when he was imprisoned---and doesn't the trailer have Galadriel making some reference to her dead brother? [Don't recall the exact verbiage from the trailer.]


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## Ent (Aug 30, 2022)

Barrow Wight said:


> Maybe these are Sauron's werewolves---but that would be the First Age. Didn't the werewolves do in one of Galadriel's brothers when he was imprisoned---and doesn't the trailer have Galadriel making some reference to her dead brother? [Don't recall the exact verbiage from the trailer.]



There does seem to be some reason to connect the "werewolves" and "wargs" together - actually, as being 'the same thing' - according to some sources.

So to say they are the Wargs or the Werewolves is to apparently be identifying the same creature.
I'm not sure whether it matters if it's FA, SA or TA at present.
I must say, it was a little bit of a surprise to me, mostly due to my preconceived notion of what 'werewolves' were from other sources.
So I'm off on yet another 'research' journey already.
Thanks for sharing this Barrow Wight. I love research.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 30, 2022)

Paywall.


----------



## Erestor Arcamen (Aug 30, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Paywall.


Whoops posted the og instead of the paywall broken link ☺️


archive.ph


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## Erestor Arcamen (Aug 30, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> Whoops posted the og instead of the paywall broken link ☺️
> 
> 
> archive.ph


That didn't work either clearly. Screw it, found a Chrome extension and here's the full article



> A sneak peek inside Amazon's new Lord of the Rings series​
> By Russell Baillie
> 28 Aug, 2022 01:00 PM10 mins to read
> 
> ...


----------



## Uminya (Aug 30, 2022)

Berzelmayr said:


> How do you guys like the new wargs? (that means if they are actually wargs at all)



Assuming those are supposed to be wargs, it would go with the longstanding trend of making orcs have a more porcine appearance as sign of their corrupted nature. The easiest example would be Jackson's Uruk-Hai, with their tusklike canines and flattened, upturned noses; but it's a fairly common trope in visual storytelling. Making wargs just large, angry versions of actual wolves would convey primitivism (i.e. a "dire wolf" from other media), rather than corruption.

Just some thoughts.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 30, 2022)

Hmm... Wargs are different than wolves or werewolves though, are they not?


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## Eledhwen (Aug 31, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> From the little I've read, the first two episodes will be a sort of "movie". It will be interesting to see if that means a self-contained story-arc, with perhaps one or more cliffhangers. They have a lot of characters to introduce; I wonder how many will be included?


I have seen these episodes now, and they are almost seamlessly stitched together (or were at the premier). There are cliffhangers and the stories introduce all four main races. There's a lot happening!


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## Erestor Arcamen (Aug 31, 2022)

The First Reactions to 'Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power' Are Here


What do people make of Amazon’s blockbuster Tolkien adaptation?




www.esquire.com


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## Erestor Arcamen (Sep 1, 2022)

Surprisingly, nothing of the series seems to spit on Tolkien's grave, or whatever the naysayers we're worried about....shocked I tell you


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## Ealdwyn (Sep 2, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> Surprisingly, nothing of the series seems to spit on Tolkien's grave, or whatever the naysayers we're worried about....shocked I tell you


I won't get to watch it for another *checks watch* 12 hours or so, so that's reassuring to hear


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## Ent (Sep 2, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Hmm... Wargs are different than wolves or werewolves though, are they not?



I trust you got your answer to this one.
In short, no they are not different. Tolkien used them absolutely interchangeably. The only difference was whether they had been/become "evil" wolves.
In some other place I posted several of the paragraphs out of TH and LoTR demonstrating that.
They were even called 'wolves' and 'wargs' interchangeably within the same paragraph.

The werewolves (though I'm doing a little more research on those yet) were simply wolves that had been bred to evil within places line Angband etc. But they were just very bad wolves. (subject to later change.)



Well-aged Enting said:


> I trust you got your answer to this one.
> In short, no they are not different. Tolkien used them absolutely interchangeably. The only difference was whether they had been/become "evil" wolves.
> In some other place I posted several of the paragraphs out of TH and LoTR demonstrating that.
> They were even called 'wolves' and 'wargs' interchangeably within the same paragraph.
> ...





Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Hmm... Wargs are different than wolves or werewolves though, are they not?



Elbereth, I will revisit my answer above. I find this in "T_he Complete Tolkien Companion_".

"*Wargs* – A Northern Mannish *name* for wolves, but more properly applied to the evil werewolves (Gaurhoth, Sind.), which appeared in Middle-earth during the First Age and remained to plague the wilderness ever after. Unlike real wolves, the Wargs were phantasms which only assumed real (and deadly) shapes after darkness had fallen; like Orcs, they were afraid of the Sun."

TCTC gives no reference sources for where it gets its ideas, and certainly their 'only assuming real shapes after darkness has fallen' does NOT line up with any of the accounts of the Wargs we have in TH or in LoTR, because we often see the Wargs out and about in full daylight... so I'm very skeptical.

But the one consistent thing J.E.A. Tyler does with the entry, is he equates Wargs, Wolves and Werewolves as all being essentially the same thing.

TH reference:
- "The *Wargs* were angry and puzzled at finding them here in their very meeting-place. They thought they were friends of the woodmen, and were come to spy on them, and would take news of their plans down into the valleys, and then the goblins and the *wolves* would have to fight a terrible battle instead of capturing prisoners and devouring people waked suddenly from their sleep."
- "They circled up in the sky and looked down upon the ring of the *Wargs*, a tiny spot far far below. But eagles have keen eyes and can see small things at a great distance. The Lord of the Eagles of the Misty Mountains had eyes that could look at the sun unblinking, and could see a rabbit moving on the ground a mile below even in the moonlight. So though he could not see the people in the trees, he could make out the commotion among the *wolves* and see the tiny flashes of fire, and hear the howling and yelping come up faint from far beneath him."

Here, "Wargs" seems to be their "Title" (or "mannish name" as Tyler says) so to speak, it being capitalized, where "wolves" is just their breed - but they are the same.

LoTR Reference:
- "Not all his servants and chattels are wraiths! There are orcs and trolls, there are *wargs* and *werewolves*;..."

Now in this reference from LoTR we see two things happen:
1. That they are "not wraiths" speaks against Tyler's calling them "phantasms that only take real shape after darkness. " You can't be a wraith, and not be a wraith. That Tolkien says they are "not wraiths" puts a nail in Tyler's coffin for me (so far).
2. There seems to be SOME kind of distinction between wargs and werewolves.

LoTR reference:
- "Suddenly Aragorn leapt to his feet. ‘How the wind howls!’ he cried. ‘It is howling with *wolf-voices*. The *Wargs* have come west of the Mountains!’

Here note again that 'wolf' and 'Warg' are used interchangeably, with Wargs being capitalized as a "name" rather than a breed.

Silmarillion reference:
- "Sauron was become now a sorcerer of dreadful power, master of shadows and of phantoms, foul in wisdom, cruel in strength, misshaping what he touched, twisting what he ruled, *lord of werewolves*;"
- "Then Sauron sent Draugluin, a dread beast, old in evil, lord and sire of the *werewolves* of Angband."

So here we see that Sauron misshaped and twisted existing things (almost certainly wolves) into something evil for his purposes.

My conclusion: "Warg" is the name of evil wolves, and wolves were also twisted and misshapen into werewolves by Sauron. (Morgoth was still about at the time, but it is Sauron that is said to have done this. He then took Minis Tirith and made it into a watch-tower for Morgoth. Tol Sirion became Tol-in-Gauroth, the Isle of Werewolves.)

So I would not necessarily picture "Wargs" as being twisted and misshapen... just as big, evil wolves.
But werewolves... we do not know the extent to which Sauron twisted them. Wolves they were. Yet what are they now.
This I think is the explanation of "there are wargs and werewolves" in LoTR. Wargs=evil wolves. werewolves=twisted misshapen wolves to an unknown form.

But none of them are "wraiths" or "phantasms".

By the way, werewolves are only mentioned that ONCE in LoTR, and we never see them "in the fray of things". We just see the Wargs. So perhaps they had become almost extinct.

Odd, since Sauron originally made them.


----------



## Erestor Arcamen (Sep 2, 2022)

I agree, spectacular so far!








Who needs Westeros? #TheRingsOfPower is a stunning Middle-earth return


In the battle between dragons and elves, Prime Video bankrolls a glorious play for the streaming fantasy throne




www.salon.com


----------



## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Sep 2, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> I agree, spectacular so far!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hope hath indeed been renewed...I am glad that opinions are (finally) beginning to change.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 2, 2022)

@Well-aged Enting , Thank you for the insight and clarity. You never fail to comprehensively draw my attention into reading every last word of your posts, despite the fact that I intended only to briefly scroll.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 2, 2022)

Tolkien scholar T.A.Shippey has this to say about what might be called the "Tolkien etymology" of wargs:


> There is a word in Old Norse, _vagr_, which means both 'wolf' and 'outlaw'. In Old English there is a word _wearh_, which means 'outcast' or 'outlaw' (but not 'wolf'), and a verb _awyrgan_, which means 'to condemn', but also 'to strangle' (the death of a condemned outcast), and perhaps 'to worry, to bite to death'. Why did Old Norse feel the need for another word for 'wolf', when they had the common word too, _ulfr_? And why should Old English give the word somehow a more eerie and less eevidently physical sense? Tolkien's word 'Warg' clearly splits the difference between Old Norse and Old English pronunciations, and his concept of them -- wolves, but not just wolves, intelligent and malevolent wolves -- combines the two ancient opinions.


_J.R.R. Tolkien, Author of the Century _

He goes into an even fuller investigation of other words used by Tolkien, BTW; his discussion of 'wraith' is especially enlightening.


----------



## Erestor Arcamen (Sep 2, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Tolkien scholar T.A.Shippey has this to say about what might be called the "Tolkien etymology" of wargs:
> 
> _J.R.R. Tolkien, Author of the Century _
> 
> He goes into an even fuller investigation of other words used by Tolkien, BTW; his discussion of 'wraith' is especially enlightening.


Have a link to his wraith discussion?


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 2, 2022)

Um . . .

I just typed that out, one-fingered, from my copy of the book. I'm definitely _not _going to do that for 'wraith'! 😳

But I'll look to see if it's online.


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## Ent (Sep 2, 2022)

How curious, thank you.
I have this book in my digital pile, but have not yet even perused it. It never occurred to me it might be usable as an explanatory resource for specifics within the Lore.
Yet now that I open it and enter many key words/phrases that I have in my ever-extending research list, there isn't a one of them that isn't spoken to in some way or another. (yet).
Thank you.
Perhaps I should make sure I peek into other resources I've been ignoring because I thought the title wouldn't lend the book to specific research issues and values.
There it is.
The Enting may see and hear a lot from his shelf as he looks out upon the world, but he doesn't always grasp the importance of what he sees..!


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## Ent (Sep 2, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> Have a link to his wraith discussion?



If you happen to have the book digitally, wraith is in it 48 times.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 2, 2022)

I'd also recommend his _The Road to Middle-earth_. There's a third edition, often cited by Mr. O.


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## Ent (Sep 2, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> Have a link to his wraith discussion?



It looks like his most direct discussion of 'wraiths' at large covers pages 137 to about 148... and on a very brief scan the context may be important to 'get it' all - what he's trying to say. but i could be wrong.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 2, 2022)

Which explains why I'm unwilling to wear out my finger. 😄


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## Ent (Sep 2, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I'd also recommend his _The Road to Middle-earth_. There's a third edition, often cited by Mr. O.



OK i'll review that too.. its in my library but I'm not sure which edition.



Well-aged Enting said:


> OK i'll review that too.. its in my library but I'm not sure which edition.


Ah. The third edition it is....
and wraith is only mentioned in it 21 times. 
I gots a lotta work to do on wraith..!!



Erestor Arcamen said:


> Have a link to his wraith discussion?






Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I'd also recommend his _The Road to Middle-earth_. There's a third edition, often cited by Mr. O.



Interestingly, in both books it appears he discusses the "wraithing process"... i'll be very curious to see what he has to say about that issue..


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 2, 2022)

Here's a short article where someone cites a bit of it:


Page Not Found



But I'd certainly recommend acquiring copies, which can be found on ebay and various other places for cheap.

After all, EA, what else are you going to spend all that sweet Amazon cash on? 😉


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## Aldarion (Sep 2, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> Hope hath indeed been renewed...I am glad that opinions are (finally) beginning to change.


Not really. Most of my friends/acquitances who had watched think first episode is rather bad. I'm planning to watch it myself, but from what I had both heard and read so far, I don't think my opinion is going to change either.

And that article basically talks about how much money had been thrown into production and how pretty it looks... yeah. Some of the best shows ever had some of the worst CGI and design ever.


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## Olorgando (Sep 2, 2022)

Aldarion said:


> And that article basically talks about how much money had been thrown into production and how pretty it looks... yeah. Some of the best shows ever had some of the worst CGI and design ever.


That at least is one thing PJ did: the bar for such efforts is quite high. But then, especially the CGI, can be overdone. Viggo Mortensen was critical of what he saw (I paraphrase) as "CGI overkill" in PJ's TH trilogy. And wowing the audience with spectacular images *could* be a way of distracting from weaknesses in dialogues and plot.


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## Aldarion (Sep 2, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> That at least is one thing PJ did: the bar for such efforts is quite high. But then, especially the CGI, can be overdone. Viggo Mortensen was critical of what he saw (I paraphrase) as "CGI overkill" in PJ's TH trilogy. And wowing the audience with spectacular images *could* be a way of distracting from weaknesses in dialogues and plot.


Precisely.

Andway, I'm watching the episode now. Seven minutes in and I had already found about a dozen contradictions of lore - and I don't mean "stuff made up because Tolkien was unclear or did not provide background", I mean "outright contradicts what Tolkien had written".

It is a disaster, though I guess a person _completely unfamiliar_ with Tolkien's writings will not have noticed anything.

And I'm _far _from being a Tolkien expert, so I can only imagine the kind of headache this stuff will have caused the experts. Anyway, back to torture now. Still about an hour to go through.


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## Ent (Sep 2, 2022)

Aldarion said:


> back to torture now. Still about an hour to go through.



Great Halls, 9th floor aisle F, 3rd shelf from the bottom of the 10th tier... right front corner.
"Carters Little Torture Relief Pills."
They're in the Great Halls because what they do to people is leave them a bit Hazy.


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## pippin le qer (Nov 1, 2022)

The Ent said:


> maybe we can just play like it's some token recovered from a troll cave somewhere at some point by someone, passed along and eventually stuck in this old historical archival room for memory's sake.


It might be "inspired" by the star of Feänor but it differs in the unequal length of the rays and it is more or less used as e general sigil for all Elvenhood.
( I use the term "inspired" loosely)


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## Berzelmayr (Nov 4, 2022)

_Annatar_ is currently trending on Twitter ...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1585420506974519296


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## Berzelmayr (Dec 15, 2022)

Amazon's Rings of Power is the fourth most popular tv series of this year according to imdb-com:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1602855067366866947


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## d4rk3lf (Dec 15, 2022)

Popular - how?  
Back in the day, Genghis Khan and Hitler were popular too.


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## Halasían (Dec 15, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> Popular - how?
> Back in the day, Genghis Khan and Hitler were popular too.


I'm sure the anti-RoP internet parasites have bumped the statistics a little. 
Anyway, I've enjoyed most of the 1st season and rated it accordingly. 
Plan in giving it another binge in the new year.

(Cue the usual BS)


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## d4rk3lf (Dec 16, 2022)

Halasían said:


> I'm sure the anti-RoP internet parasites have bumped the statistics a little.


For sure!  
That's why I wrote that being popular doesn't necessarily mean, being good. 

However, don't think that I am ungrateful towards Rop. 
Because of that series, I've started to appreciate a lot more LOTR and Hobbit movies. 
And I see now that some series, I considered pretty bad, shine in comparison to Rop. 

Rop have learned me that it's better to have bad dialogue, then nonsensical random dialogue. It learned me that it's better to have poorly written characters, then very annoying, unlikable main characters. 
It humbled me to understand that it's nicer to have bad plot, then no plot at all.


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## Ealdwyn (Dec 16, 2022)

I thought this was an interesting article, written by a military historian









Collections: Why Rings of Power’s Middle Earth Feels Flat


This week we’re going to take a look at the worldbuilding of Amazon Studio’s Rings of Power from a historical realism perspective. I think it is no great secret that Rings of Power broa…




acoup.blog


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## Olorgando (Dec 16, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> I thought this was an interesting article, written by a military historian
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Spock would blend in with the Elves with his ears. The just tell Scotty the beaming coordinates and the transportation problems are solved ... 🤪🤪🤪


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## Halasían (Dec 18, 2022)

> This week we're going to take a look at the worldbuilding of Amazon Studio's Rings of Power from a *historical realism* perspective.



Uhm... that cracks me up. Tolkien's Middle Earth _is_ a fantasy world, not historical or real. 😆


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## Aldarion (Dec 18, 2022)

Halasían said:


> Uhm... that cracks me up. Tolkien's Middle Earth _is_ a fantasy world, not historical or real. 😆


Tolkien would disagree. His world is intended as a fictional history of a real world, not a made up one.

And even a completely fictional world has to follow some basic common sense rules, at least if you are writing about humans and not some kind of reality warping aliens.


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## Halasían (Dec 18, 2022)

Aldarion said:


> Tolkien would disagree.


I figured someone would come in and claim to be the 'Mouth of Tolkien' here. 
Have fun!


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## Aldarion (Dec 19, 2022)

Halasían said:


> I figured someone would come in and claim to be the 'Mouth of Tolkien' here.
> Have fun!


I do not need to "claim" anything. Tolkien already did that. From Letter 165:


> ’Middle-earth’, by the way, is not a name of a never-never land without relation to the world we live in (like the Mercury of Eddison). It is just a use of Middle English middel-erde (or erthe), altered from Old English middengeard: the name for the inhabited lands of Men ’between the seas’. And though I have not attempted to relate the shape of the mountains and land-masses to what geologists may say or surmise about the nearer past, imaginitively *this ’history’ is supposed to take place in a period of the actual Old World of this planet*.


So yes, Tolkien's Middle Earth is absolutely real world (well, fictional history of the real world). Which in turn means that historical realism perspective is absolutely applicable, and Amazon's crimes against logic are also crimes against Tolkien.


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## Olorgando (Dec 19, 2022)

Halasían said:


> I figured someone would come in and claim to be the 'Mouth of Tolkien' here.
> Have fun!


Trying to estimate how low the level is at which you are capable of suspending disbelief has me scratching my head.
But then I have the impression that content of RoP went out your window as a yardstick for criticism before the airing of the first episode, propelled by violent knee movement ...


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## CheriptheRipper (Dec 19, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> Popular - how?
> Back in the day, Genghis Khan and Hitler were popular too.


Well if Hitler's anything to go by, ROP's 2nd season should be a banger.


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## Halasían (Dec 21, 2022)

I think I'll just drop this here in my thread...

‘LOTR: The Rings Of Power’: Vernon Sanders Talks Season 1 Return On Investment & Season 3 Renewal...



> _*The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power* _started setting records before a frame of it had been released when word came out of New Zealand last year that its eight-episode first season cost a record $465 million to produce (not factoring in tax rebates and start-up costs amortization.)
> 
> In an interview with Deadline, Vernon Sanders, Head of Global TV for Amazon Studios, says the financial bet “has more than paid off.” He addresses the success of the show on Prime Video — where it broke records for most global viewers in its first day (25 million) and overall (more than 100 million), for minutes streamed (24 billion) and signups worldwide during its launch window, attracted younger viewers (record number of adults 18-34 for a Prime Video original) and affluent audiences (40% coming from households with income greater than $100,000) — and beyond, boosting Amazon’s sales of J.R.R. Tolkien books on which the series was based.



Cue the usual shist in three... two.. one.


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## Tar-Elenion (Dec 21, 2022)

Vernon Sanders, Head of Global TV for Amazon Studios, says Amazon Studio's Global TV program is GREAT!!!


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## Halasían (Dec 23, 2022)

Tar-Elenion said:


> Vernon Sanders, Head of Global TV for Amazon Studios, says Amazon Studio's Global TV program is GREAT!!!


Yes, just like Peter Jackson touting his movies back in the day.


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## Olorgando (Dec 23, 2022)

Halasían said:


> Tar-Elenion said:
> 
> 
> > Vernon Sanders, Head of Global TV for Amazon Studios, says Amazon Studio's Global TV program is GREAT!!!
> ...


At least PJ was a filmmaker, as director and scriptwriter (I always seriously hesitate to include "pure" producers in this category).
As Sanders is the (co-) head of a company unit, which translates into business stiff for me (I haven't been able to find out if he was ever involved in the creative side of visual media), that most likely puts him in the category of the dull cave trolls plaguing every "entertainment" company. I'm willing to revise that preliminary judgement when provided with conclusive proof to the contrary.


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## Tar-Elenion (Dec 23, 2022)

The PJ reference is just a whataboutism
But take a look at the numbers he gives:
25 million viewers the first day. What counts as a viewer? How long does the person have to watch?

Overall more than 100 million viewers.
So more than 100 million for the seven weeks, 8 episodes? Again how long does a person have to watch?
And 24 billion minutes streamed. 
24 billion divided by 100 million is 240 minutes.The episodes were, what? 65 to 70 minutes each?
8x65 is 520. So the 100 million viewers watched less than half the series.

And then this:
"After we finished releasing episodes, we saw a new surge of people come to the service to start the show."
How does he know why they came to Amazon Prime? Could people be coming to Amazon Prime for another reason? Like, I don't know, maybe Christmas and the free shipping ?


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## Barrow Wight (Dec 23, 2022)

Halasían said:


> Yes, just like Peter Jackson touting his movies back in the day.


As he was rev'ing up the PR machine to maneuver into Oscar contention. Sadly, the worst of the three LOTR movies actually won an Oscar . . . .


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## CheriptheRipper (Dec 23, 2022)

Tar-Elenion said:


> And then this:
> "After we finished releasing episodes, we saw a new surge of people come to the service to start the show."
> How does he know why they came to Amazon Prime? Could people be coming to Amazon Prime for another reason? Like, I don't know, maybe Christmas and the free shipping ?


I would think they put those numbers up against those of their other shows post release and on year to year basis. 
So they would conclude there aren't any sudden surges in prime membership in that period of time after the last episode.


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## Ent (Dec 23, 2022)

Tar-Elenion said:


> "After we finished releasing episodes, we saw a new surge of people come to the service to start the show."


I would think they knew precisely that the 'new people' came to the service "_*to start the show.*_"
Guaranteed, they have precise counts and userIDs of exactly who, when, why, how many, how much, etc. watched the shows. So it's easy for them to see 'a new surge' of userIDs that came to the service and once there, watched the show.

The questions are: what is the definition of 'a new surge of people"?? Is it people who haven't been there for 6 months? Is it a 'new surge' of already existing users finally getting around to it? 'How do you define a 'surge' ? 3 more people? 30 more people? Note it doesn't say the people are new people, but the surge is a new surge. Well... so it just means existing people didn't watch until after all 8 episodes were available to them? I know many who are 'binge watchers' of things, and don't like to wait. It's easier for them to see things in continuity at one time.

The category is meaningless. 
That said, I'm a little surprised people still fuss over the thing at all. The very fact it keeps coming up is great testimony to its power and hold on people...one way or another. 

They either enjoy it enough to discuss it, or they hate it and amazon so much they just can't let it go.
Both give the series great advertising and awareness space, for which I'm certain Amazon is thankful.

Thank you all for contributing to it, as I'm also happy to do.


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## Olorgando (Dec 23, 2022)

Ent said:


> They either enjoy it enough to discuss it, or they hate it and amazon so much they just can't let it go.
> Both give the series great advertising and awareness space, for which I'm certain Amazon is thankful.


There's a German saying that goes roughly like this (and can probably be translated innumerable other ways):

"Better a *well-known* abominable reputation than being ignored."
*THE* driving force behind 99.99% of the Internet? 🤨


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## Aldarion (Dec 28, 2022)

Turns out, Rings of Power showrunners used Schindler's List to make Galadriel into a demon:






They are not incompetent, they are evil.


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## Olorgando (Dec 28, 2022)

Aldarion said:


> Turns out, Rings of Power showrunners used Schindler's List to make Galadriel into a demon:
> They are not incompetent, they are evil.


Well, I'd guess they just take their orders from their boss.
I think it was part way through the second clip that I started thinking that RoP's Guyadriel may be Bezorc's very personal Mary Sue in this stuff.

Bezorc tells the showrunners something like "here's the stuff from the author that we can use ... what's-his-name ... funny thing is his name sounds almost the same as that of the author who wrote the GoT books ...
Anyway, there's some names that we'll be using, but most of the others you can invent.
Then there's these maps with the places the characters will be running around in, again we'll use some names ... you get the idea.
But I want the lead character to adhere to *this* document!
It's my mission statement ... no, no, not the one I gave to the PR folks, the *real* one!
So you can't keep a copy, just get in the spirit of what's in it. And I'd appreciate the other characters not straying too far from it either."

'Course, you can probably substitute the name of any IT bigwig whose company has metastasized since the turn of the century - Goo, FB, etc. - and others who have only dabbled in IT like Muskrat etc.


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## Halasían (Jan 4, 2023)

I still crack up at all the time and efforts some people are putting in keep dissing on a TV show they don't like. 😆


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## Olorgando (Jan 4, 2023)

Halasían said:


> I still crack up at all the time and efforts some people are putting in keep dissing on a TV show they don't like. 😆


Dude, you've been active on the Internet over a decade longer than I have (a bit over 9 years) at home.
You should know by now that there are at least two categories of such people:
- The hate-spewers from some cesspit who don't give a 💩 about the OP topic, they just take every topic as an occasion to spew their toxic bile.
- Those with some knowledge of a topic, probably more often nerds with quite a bit more than just some, who find some ignoramuses totally warping the "message", for lack of a better word, in their "adaptation" of an original. Besides the ignoramuses, there are at times those from category 1 whose warping is intentional. Verbally nuking this bunch is only justified.


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## Aldarion (Jan 5, 2023)

Halasían said:


> I still crack up at all the time and efforts some people are putting in keep dissing on a TV show they don't like. 😆


Usually I don't. If I don't like a TV show, I ignore it - new Star Trek, new Star Wars, last seasons of Game of Thrones, and so on. But when that TV show is dragging the name of the author and the setting I do like through the mud, then it is definitely something I cannot just pass over.


Olorgando said:


> Well, I'd guess they just take their orders from their boss.
> I think it was part way through the second clip that I started thinking that RoP's Guyadriel may be Bezorc's very personal Mary Sue in this stuff.
> 
> Bezorc tells the showrunners something like "here's the stuff from the author that we can use ... what's-his-name ... funny thing is his name sounds almost the same as that of the author who wrote the GoT books ...
> ...


That actually isn't something that occured to me, but... yeah, considering how many self-insert Mary Sues are there in modern productions, I really should have considered it.

EDIT: A good video on failures of the show:


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## Halasían (Jan 5, 2023)

Olorgando said:


> Dude, you've been active on the Internet over a decade longer than I have (a bit over 9 years) at home.
> You should know by now that there are at least two categories of such people:
> - The hate-spewers from some cesspit who don't give a 💩 about the OP topic, they just take every topic as an occasion to spew their toxic bile.
> - Those with some knowledge of a topic, probably more often nerds with quite a bit more than just some, who find some ignoramuses totally warping the "message", for lack of a better word, in their "adaptation" of an original. Besides the ignoramuses, there are at times those from category 1 whose warping is intentional. Verbally nuking this bunch is only justified.


Yes, I know. I just said it cracks me up. 😆



Aldarion said:


> Usually I don't. If I don't like a TV show, I ignore it - new Star Trek, new Star Wars, last seasons of Game of Thrones, and so on. But when that TV show is dragging the name of the author and the setting I do like through the mud, then it is definitely something I cannot just pass over.


Ah, the 'I'm protecting Tolkien's name' reason. That one really cracks me up. 😆 
It doesn't matter to me how many Anti-Rings of Power youtube leech videos you post in my thread, it appears pathetic. Anyway, knock yourself out.


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## Aldarion (Saturday at 1:43 PM)

Halasían said:


> Ah, the 'I'm protecting Tolkien's name' reason. That one really cracks me up. 😆


I don't need to protect anybody's name. But I don't want people to get an idea that Rings of Power are somehow a "Tolkien" or "Tolkien-inspired" work, when they are not. Bloody _Eragon_ shows more respect towards Tolkien than Rings of Power do. Yet how many people who watch the series you think will read the book?

I mean, these guys turned hobbits evil:


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## Halasían (Saturday at 7:44 PM)

Aldarion said:


> ... how many people who watch the series you think will read the book?


I know of a_ lot_ of people who picked up a Tolkien book for the first time after seeing Rings of Power. They also are deeply interested and they have questions. It's awesome discussing Middle Earth with them. It is unfortunate that some places are polluted with toxic hatred for the show for many to _want_ to mention how they came to know Tolkien and Middle Earth for fear of being dogpiled on, which is sad. That gatekeeper attitude does more to turn new people off from Tolkien than Rings of Power ever has. It's just the way it is.


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## Olorgando (Saturday at 9:31 PM)

Halasían said:


> I know of a_ lot_ of people who picked up a Tolkien book for the first time after seeing Rings of Power. They also are deeply interested and they have questions. It's awesome discussing Middle Earth with them.


And how are the discussions with the film- / TV-only crowd?


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## Halasían (Sunday at 3:09 AM)

Olorgando said:


> And how are the discussions with the film- / TV-only crowd?


Typical assumption there Gandolorian. There are plenty of old book guys among the crowd who are quite accommodating to those who just found out about Tolkien and Middle Earth. It's rather pleasant, like days of yore. 

Edit: To answer the Gandolorian below as it isn't worthy of another post (it might be too complicated for him to figure out though), it is going great. Questions, measured discourse, answers, and an awesome experience interacting with people just now learning of the world of Middle Earth that Tolkien created. All without the condensation and repeated bleating of how much Rings of Power sucks, etc. with the accompanying youtube videos. It's quite a pleasant environment. Anyway, since I've been here on this site more-or-less for 22 years, I still come by now and again.... well, I'll just leave it at that.


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## Olorgando (Sunday at 1:02 PM)

Halasían said:


> Typical assumption there Gandolorian. There are plenty of old book guys among the crowd who are quite accommodating to those who just found out about Tolkien and Middle Earth. It's rather pleasant, like days of yore.


You didn't answer my question.
If by "those who just found out about Tolkien and Middle Earth" you mean the film- / TV-only crowd, you know that they have "found out" about Middle-earth to varying degrees, and about JRRT to a lesser degree in each of the three cases.

PJ's LoTR: names, places, the route "there and back again" quite faithfully; individual scenes and characterization riddled with PJ's forgeries, character assassinations in some cases.
PJ's TH: names, places, the route "there and back again" faithful in the main, but with significant deviations; additional non-canon characters, non-canon locations (that utterly ridiculous "tomb of the Nazgûl"), scenes and characterizations again riddled with PJ's forgeries, padding ad nauseam.
RoP: names of people and places that also occur in JRRT's writings, the rest a fabrication along generic fantasy blockbuster lines, apparently (from comments I've read and heard) badly written and badly directed, often making no sense.

If this makes them want to go to the source, JRRT's writing, fine, as is being accommodating to them.

If they couldn't care less about the books but believe they have "found out" about Middle-earth, they are increasingly mistaken the newer the "adaptation". Even for the original 2001-2003 film trilogy, if they think they have "found out" about JRRT and *his* vision of Middle-earth they are sadly mistaken, as PJ flatly contradicts what JRRT wrote in the book, and never mind the lengthy explanations to be found in "Letters". And this in points absolutely central and important to JRRT. They have "found out" about PJ's take on the stories, on how he thought they should be told (as he perhaps inadvertently confessed several times, often simply because he didn't understand JRRT's point).
Whether there is *anything* to be "found out" about RoP, let alone M-e, looks like a doubtful proposition, by many comment).


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## Aldarion (Sunday at 2:59 PM)

Halasían said:


> I know of a_ lot_ of people who picked up a Tolkien book for the first time after seeing Rings of Power. They also are deeply interested and they have questions. It's awesome discussing Middle Earth with them. It is unfortunate that some places are polluted with toxic hatred for the show for many to _want_ to mention how they came to know Tolkien and Middle Earth for fear of being dogpiled on, which is sad. That gatekeeper attitude does more to turn new people off from Tolkien than Rings of Power ever has. It's just the way it is.


And I have already acknowledged that it is one good thing about the Rings of Power. Problem is, it is the _only _good thing about the Rings of Power, so unless literally every single RoP watcher picks up Tolkien's books afterwards, the overall effect may still be negative.

Also, I have seen very little _actually toxic _hatred for the show. From what I have seen, nobody really cares how somebody came to enjoy Tolkien, so long as they don't do stuff like acting as if the show/movie version is the "correct one" or the "only one that exists". Pointing out flaws of something doesn't constitute "toxic hatred". If anything, it is the showmakers who show toxic hatred towards anything Tolkien...


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## Ent (Sunday at 4:30 PM)

Aldarion said:


> unless literally every single RoP watcher picks up Tolkien's books afterwards, the overall effect may still be negative


My dear Aldarion, you know I am more than happy you have an opinion on these matters, and am also happy to let you have it. Opinions are, of course, personally formed, and personally held.

You know in return, I have one. (or 3. or maybe 5.) So in response to your statement "unless..every single..watcher picks up books..." it *may* still be negative... let me add my own thought. (Translate that 'opinion' please.) 

1. I'm thankful you say "may" rather than "will". You keep it in its proper element.
2. My thought on the matter: if ANY ONE individual has picked up a book as a result, it has been worth it. 

Amazon has spent the millions/billions, not me. They have done so legally. If they drive a convert to the True Tolkien, though it was an expensive investment, it _has been worth it_.

Could they have driven far more had they done a far better job? Of course, likely so. 
But I would bring along this further thought. (translate that 'opinion' please.)

For the die-hard movie watchers and book avoiders, it most likely simply makes no difference at all. It doesn't matter how well done it is or was, they're just not going to pick up a book. They want to be spoon fed. They don't want to 'work' for their entertainment - and for their kind, reading is work.

I suspect to the core of my roots, there is at the end of the day very little impact change based on the "nature" and/or "accuracy" of what is depicted.

If we want to discuss the potential impact of the "quality" of what's depicted, that is another matter. Good quality MAY sway some few others. But think on this: those who don't know Tolkien and want to be spoon fed, are also, frankly, not very keen on quality. That ability to distinguish also takes work. They just want the spoon.

So as I consider this latest round of "Romping Around On RoP Grounds", having considered, my personal opinion hasn't changed. 
I'm thankful it's there. It's not what I would have preferred. It's given a lot of opportunity for discussion. It's seen some few more people pick up a book. The rest don't care. And it's provided GREAT fodder for those who need something to focus on, a focal point. 

In every way, I can't help but see the results of its being made a 'good thing' as everyone that has touched it has made a choice. And when people make choices, they are generally happy. It's when they make no choice - when they are in limbo - they are most unsettled. 

So at the very top of my list, I'm thankful those who decry the thing to such extents have made a choice, as for all their dismay over it, they are, nonetheless, happy in the choice they have made.


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