# Would Gandalf have survived.......?



## Maeglin (Dec 8, 2002)

Originally the Fellowship was going to have 2 other elf lords (probably Glorfindel and a son of Elrond) instead of Merry and Pippin, so here's my question: if the Elf Lords had gone with the fellowship and they went through Moria (assuming they met the Balrog still), would Gandalf have lived, because then it would have been a Maia and 2 elf lords, including one that had already fought and killed a balrog in the case of Glorfindel, against a balrog. So do you think that together they would have been able to defeat the balrog and therefore keep Gandalf alive?


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## Link (Dec 8, 2002)

Of course this thread is all merely speculation........

Hmmmmmm.........


The real quesiton is, if Gandalf would have survived, and remained Gandalf the Grey, and had never become Gandalf the White, would the quest still have ended in success? Make's you think. And what if Merry and Pippin never went into the Fangorn to meet the Ents? 

There would simply be a whole different story if perhaps Glorfindel and maybe Elrohir went instead of Merry and Pippin.


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## Mablung (Dec 8, 2002)

I think things would have gone badly without Merry and Pippin specifically the Ents and Huorns would never have been awakened to fight. Also Boromir probably would have survived being with the rest of the group thus preventing Faramir's ascension.


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## Maeglin (Dec 8, 2002)

okay then how's this for a simpler question: could Glorfindel and Gandalf (with their combined strength) defeat a balrog without either of them getting killed in the process?


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## Link (Dec 8, 2002)

^^^yes................


Gandalf - Maiar

Balrog - Maiar

Glorfindel - Elf Prince who kills Balrogs


Gandalf & Glorfindel vs. Balrog = *Gandalf speaking to the Fellowship* "We're having Balrog for dinner guys......."


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## gate7ole (Dec 8, 2002)

Wait! If I'm correct, Gandalf was not killed by the fight with the Balrog but by the fall. Afterwards he managed to kill the balrog in a fair battle. And the reason for Gandalf's fall is (besides his bad luck) his exhaustion by the mind-battle with the demon. Would Glorfindel be any more good? I don't think so. Glorfindel would be a good fighter in a battle, but with the way things happened, he would not avoid Gandalf's fall.


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## Anamatar IV (Dec 8, 2002)

But would there have been a fall? Lets say there was a battle ON the bridge (the only way glorfindel could fight). Glorfindel cant fight down below because he's be dead. So it has to be on the bridge. If Gandalf had collasped the bridge Glorfindel wouldnt have fought so it wouldnt have mattered. So either the balrog would kill one or the other or both while dying/living or both killed the balrog. There'd be no fall and all that.


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## Maeglin (Dec 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by gate7ole _
> *Wait! If I'm correct, Gandalf was not killed by the fight with the Balrog but by the fall. Afterwards he managed to kill the balrog in a fair battle. And the reason for Gandalf's fall is (besides his bad luck) his exhaustion by the mind-battle with the demon. Would Glorfindel be any more good? I don't think so. Glorfindel would be a good fighter in a battle, but with the way things happened, he would not avoid Gandalf's fall. *



well if you look at it like that then Glorfindel wasn't killed by the balrog in his battle either, remember he fell from a cliff and that is how he died, in the same way Gandalf did.


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## Froggum (Dec 8, 2002)

Here's another question:
Would they even have run into the Balrog if it hadn't been for Pippin?

I'm thinking no.

And I agree with Link:



> The real quesiton is, if Gandalf would have survived, and remained Gandalf the Grey, and had never become Gandalf the White, would the quest still have ended in success? Make's you think. And what if Merry and Pippin never went into the Fangorn to meet the Ents?



The story wouldn't be the wonderful trilogy we know without them.


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## Maeglin (Dec 8, 2002)

yes I realize that they might not have met the balrog if it hadn't been for Pippin, thats why in the original question in my first post I said "assuming that they still met the balrog"


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## Froggum (Dec 8, 2002)

Totally missed the parenthetical expression.

Sorry 'bout that!


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## Maeglin (Dec 8, 2002)

'tis okay, no harm done.


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## gate7ole (Dec 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Froggum _
> Here's another question:
> Would they even have run into the Balrog if it hadn't been for Pippin?
> 
> I'm thinking no.



Is it really Pippin's fault? Suppose that he hadn't caused the attention of the Orcs at the room of Balin's tomb. I don't believe that they would leave Moria without being detected. The Bridge, the Halls, somewhere they would come across a band of Orcs which would arise them all. And finally, the Balrog would "sense" the existence of Gandalf (and vice versa). So, IMO Pippin just quickened the inevitable events.


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## Maeglin (Dec 8, 2002)

hey thats a good way of looking at it, it won't make sense to a lot of people probably, but it makes enough sense to me.


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## Proudfoots (Dec 8, 2002)

When they tried to climb over Redhorn pass and Gandalf lit the fire, did he not say something along the lines of "and now I have written my name that anyone can read from Mordor to the Havens" or something to that effect...

So, the Balrog (and watcher in the deep) would have known that Gandalf was in the 'hood to begin with, so, we can leave poor Pippin out of this debate.

'foots


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## Lantarion (Dec 9, 2002)

Noo, the Balrog was INSIDE of Moria, and the Watcher was a very long way away from where Caradhras was.. As I recall it was quite a hike from the mountain to the West-gate. And anyway, the Fellowship was behind the mountainside, out of sight!
But I would have to concur with, er, everybody when I say that the circumstances that the Fellowship got themselves into would have been completely different.


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## Húrin Thalion (Dec 9, 2002)

I just wanted to bring one thing into the light, Gandalf was not killed by the fall, for after telling his friends about how he followed the Balrog up to Zirakzigil he says:




> I threw down my enemy and he, and he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side were he smote it in his ruin. Then darkness took me and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell.



And I think that it would not be better to bring an elf-lord even though your common sense may say so. It would also look wiser to send the Ring to Minas Tirith and from thence to go to Mordor than to send a hobbit and his servant over Emyn Muil and into the arms of the Dark Lord. I think that Merry and Pippin were meant to go with the fellowship, if only for their love for Frodo. You may call it foresight that was upon Gandalf when he convinced Elrond to send them.

Húrin Thalion


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## Maeglin (Dec 9, 2002)

Whoaa hold on a sec., your quote is saying that yes Gandalf did die from the fall,it is not directly saying it, but I think it is implied because when he says I wandered far on roads I will not tell you about I think it is because he died and went to Mandos and then was sent back, I think maybe he was just not allowed to tell them about the halls of Mandos or he would rather not trouble them with those thoughts and make them worry about their death more.


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## Húrin Thalion (Dec 9, 2002)

But he says that after he has first fallen, fought with the balrog in the water, followed it through the dungeons in the river, climbed up for Durins stair and fought the balrog! He may have died of all these but certainly not only from the fall!

Húrin Thalion


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## Arvedui (Dec 10, 2002)

Húrin is right. They fought on after the fall, and Gandalf was taken by darkness and strayed out of thought and time *after* the Balrog fell to his ruin.

During the fall, Gandalf clung to the Balrog, and the Balrog used his wings so that they would not be killed by the fall.


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## Húrin Thalion (Dec 10, 2002)

Wings? What perverted creature would think of a Balrog with wings? 
No I simply think that Gandalf clung to the Balrog who couldn't be killed by the fall since he was not "embodified" as Gandalf was. If he had wings why didn't he fly up and kill the rest of the fellowship and left Gandalf to the nameless creatures down there?

Just a thought on Balrogs, besides how would that LOOK in Moria?

Húrin Thalion


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## lightingstrike (Dec 14, 2002)

*I think he probably could have*

Yeah you are probably right. Maybe he could have surrvived if the two elf lords had been there, but it is not for sure. But, if the elves could have beaten him then why didn't Legolas try to charge the Balrog. Or did he think at that time that Gandalf knew what was happening and just decided that it was time. For those of you who have read the 
TT, it really doesn't matter does it? ALso, if Merry and Pippin weren't there and the Elf Lords were Bomoir probably wouln't have died.


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## Húrin Thalion (Dec 14, 2002)

Legolas is not as good as a warrior (especially not in close combat) as for example Glorfindel for a few reasons. The most important one is that he (Glorfindel) is a high elf who has long been in Aman and learned from the Valar and seen the two trees. Secondly all are not borne alike, one may have courage one may be a good singer. Also Legolas was not equipped to face a Balrog, a dagger and a bow would not have much effect. Gandalf also stood there and commanded the others to stay back and as all should he obeyed his commander. Welcome to the forum lightningstrike!


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## Maeglin (Dec 14, 2002)

you took the words right out of my mouth Hurin, but I just have one question for you, was Glorfindel really born in Aman, or was he born in Gondolin, I never really knew for sure....


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## Húrin Thalion (Dec 14, 2002)

Well... er I cannot prove it with any quotes but I am pretty covinced that he was born in Aman. We will have to await help from someone that knows to be sure though. ´


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## Anamatar IV (Dec 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Húrin Thalion _
> * effect. Gandalf also stood there and commanded the others to stay back and as all should he obeyed his commander. *



But both Aragorn and Boromir were with Gandalf upon the bridge:



> "We are with you Gandalf!" cried Aragorn. "Elendil!"
> "Gondor!"


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## Húrin Thalion (Dec 14, 2002)

I said "...as all should..."



> 'Over the bridge!' cried Gandalf, recalling his strength. 'Fly! Ths foe is beyond any of you. I must hold the narrow way. Fly!' Aragorn and Boromir did not heed the command but still held their ground, side by side. behind Gandalf at the end of the bridge.'



Now what is that, courage or folly? As said all should obey their commander as long as they have one.


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## Arvedui (Dec 16, 2002)

Well, at least they were clever enough to stand *behind* Gandalf, and at the end of the bridge. Maybe they thought they could do better if Gandalf failed?
No, to be serious, I think it was a natural instinct in them. They did not yield to danger, and here was danger. The natural thing for both of them was to stand up against it.
Or maybe Legolas (and Gimli) knew more about Balrogs than they did.


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## Maeglin (Dec 16, 2002)

I would say that Legolas definitely knew more about Balrogs than they did, because he is an Elf and had probably heard all the stories about Elven-warriors that fell against them.


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## Thorondor_ (May 16, 2005)

Húrin Thalion said:


> Well... er I cannot prove it with any quotes but I am pretty covinced that he was born in Aman. We will have to await help from someone that knows to be sure though. ´


The Fellowship of the Ring_ ,_ p. 235_,_ where he is said to have been one of the _‘lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas.. who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm.’_


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