# Atlantis --- was it real?



## Persephone (Jul 30, 2006)

Atlantis may have been real. There's far too much evidence that there was an ancient city with that name. But the mythological aspect may have been exagerrated. Another thing to take into account when talking about Atlantis, is the other great city that supposedly existed at around the same time - LIMORIA ( I could have spelled this wrong...) 

According to legend, Atlantis and Limoria (??) were the two biggest cities before the flood. They were the world power before and have advanced in technology and in the arts and society as well. They were also supposedly at war against each other. When the great flood covered the earth, it was told that both cities were destroyed.

On the Mythological point of view, Atlanteans were supposed to be humans who could breathe under water, while Limorians were humans with wings.

This poll is multiple choice by the way and it would be nice if you can post something explaining why you voted that way.


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## YayGollum (Jul 30, 2006)

I went with the first option, since it seemed the closest to what I thought. Sure, I wouldn't be surprised if the place existed. I understand that many forms of technology and ways to obliterate them exist. I have done very little research on the place and am merely being open-minded, though. *hides*


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## Persephone (Jul 30, 2006)

I think so too. But I think the mythos around these two cities were probably bloated facts.


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## Mike (Jul 31, 2006)

> Another thing to take into account when talking about Atlantis, is the other great city that supposedly existed at around the same time - LIMORIA ( I could have spelled this wrong...)
> 
> According to legend, Atlantis and Limoria (??) were the two biggest cities before the flood.


 
What legend would this be? The major source of information on Atlantis--The Timeus and the Criteus by Plato, make no mention of any place called Limoria. Atlantis goes solo on a campaign of world conquest, and it is the Athenians, not the Limorians, who are their main rival.

If, however, you speak of Lemuria--I'll tell you now no such legend existed in actual fact. Lemuria was an invention of a scientist who wished to explain the existance of lemurs in Madagascar. Later on, other individuals expanded on this idea and claimed they had discovered scrolls documenting the rise and fall of lemura, connecting it with legends from ancient India. In fact, this line of reasoning makes no sense--lemuria's existance was no longer accepted as scientific with the coming of the theory of plate tectonics.



> On the Mythological point of view, Atlanteans were supposed to be humans who could breathe under water, while Limorians were humans with wings.


 
Lemurians (if that's what you're talking about) might as well have been lemurs, if you trace it back to its roots. As for Atlanteans, Plato never said they could breathe water--they were just normal human beings. I don't know where you got this from, a source would be nice.

But, to the question of Atlantis: if you speak of a pre-deluvian society with a form of advanced technology (though not the same as our own), then yes, I believed it existed. Not specificly in Atlantis, per se, but such a society is probably responsible for the monolith culture across the world and other unexplained engineering feats which cannot be replicated. They might have even been a stone age culture--but with thinkers surpassing our own. Their passing in some sort of catalysm is also a likely possibility--all the common legends of "the golden age" and floods/catalcysms shared between various cultures would provide a measure of evidence for this.

And that's my two cents.


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## Alcuin (Jul 31, 2006)

I think it is a _proper_ use of the phrase “consensus” to say that many archeologists now believe that, if there was a civilization upon which Plato’s Atlantis was based, it is probably the fallen Minoan civilization that was first believed to be centered on what was once presumed to be the palace of the legendary King Minos at Knossos (very cool link) on he island of Crete. As I understand matters, most of archeologists who have studied the situation now believe that this civilization was centered not on eastern Crete, but on what is now the island of Santorini, called Thera in days of the classical Greeks. Santorini is a caldera, a volcano whose top has collapsed to form a bowl. Crater Lake in Oregon is a caldera; so are Yellowstone in the western United States and Krakatoa in Indonesia. From Tolkien’s descriptions, the top of Meneltarma in Númenor was a caldera, and the story of the Downfall of Númenor is based upon Tolkien’s dreams of a giant wave and the story of Atlantis, as he describes it in Letter 163 to W.H. Auden:


> …I have what some might call an Atlantis complex. … I mean the terrible recurrent dream (beginning with memory) of the Great Wave, towering up, and coming in ineluctably over the trees and green fields. (I bequeathed it to Faramir.) I don’t think I have had it since I wrote the ‘Downfall of Númenor’…


The civilization centered on Santorini was extraordinary, as excavations at Akrotiri have revealed, particularly in its water supply and sewage removal techniques, which were not equaled for over a millennium until the Romans constructed similar systems. (The ancient Minoans and Romans/Byzantines had the best public water and sewage systems in the history of mankind until about 125 years ago.) Reconstructions of the island complex before a major eruption (dated circa1630 BC from radiocarbon dating, but 1500 BC from current interpretation of Egyptian records) destroyed what is believed to have been a city and port on an island in the caldera, believed to be the basis for Plato’s Atlantis story. There is a fresco unearthed in Akrotiri with a background that bears a striking resemblance to both the geologic reconstructions and Plato’s description of Atlantis. 

An archeological organization called the Thera Foundation is the intellectual repository of much of the work being done on Thera and its place in the Minoan civilization. If you are interested in this, you should also do what Tolkien would do, and take a look at the current status of the “holy grail” of linguistic studies, the attempt to decipher Minoan writing, called Linear A. (Mayan hieroglyphs have been deciphered and can now be read.) 

So if you’re asking if there was a real Atlantis in human history, the answer is probably “Yes,” and it is probably the Minoan civilization centered on ancient Santorini and was destroyed in one of the greatest volcanic eruptions recorded in human history (by the Egyptians; the Chinese recorded its effects in darkened days and dim sunlight at noonday). The center of the civilization was not only obliterated by an eruption, but many of its maritime outposts were destroyed in violent tsunami following the collapse of the volcanic crater into the Mediterranean Sea. Plato did not get the story right, probably because Solon, his great-grandfather who was the ambassador of Athens to the Egyptians, from whom he learned the story, did not get it quite right: apparently when the Egyptians told Solon the island had been destroyed 900 years earlier, Solon misunderstood that it had been destroyed 9,000 years before his day. (Diplomatic misunderstandings have a long history.) Atlantis and its legends also had a tremendous effect upon J.R.R. Tolkien and his stories of the Akallabêth, Elendil, and the beginning of the Third Age.

If you’re asking about Lemuria or Mu, there appears to be no evidence for it as far as I know. I took a look at this stuff decades ago: I found Santorini and the connection to Atlantis, which has been studied and understood for about 50 years. “Lemuria” and presumed continents in the mid-Atlantic or Indian oceans appear to be a dry hole, but very profitable for spiritualists and other students of Madame Blavatsky who sell books and give lectures to people who like it.


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## Persephone (Jul 31, 2006)

Well, the mythology that I was referring to can't actually be found anywhere on the net. I think it's more of folklore than legend. I got it from a teacher in High School -- and he believed in it so much. I was not convinced though, the story is too wild to be true. 

And according to his version, the Limorians (this is how he spelled it), had wings or they can fly, while the Altanteans could breath underwater. They were at war and they fought each other to death: the Atlanteans destroying Limoria into smithereens and the Limorians doing the same to them. The war was the reason for the deluge, according to his story. The people that got away were two from Limoria, and two from Atlantis. 

I don't believe it of course and I actually thought that it was a common tale. Now that I've read your referrences, maybe he (meaning my teacher) got it mixed up with another story. Don't know.

But I believe that there were these large cities before the great flood and that their technology was advanced. Because there is far too much mention about these two cities for them to be made up.


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## Mike (Aug 1, 2006)

Hate to sound like a party pooper...



> But I believe that there were these large cities before the great flood and that their technology was advanced. Because there is far too much mention about these two cities for them to be made up.


 
Atlantis is only mentioned as Atlantis in Plato's timeus and Criteus. All other mention of Atlantis comes from these two works, so it cannot be corroberated with other legends in history. otherwise, Atlantis came from Plato. And according to him, there is no war with Lemuria, it is the gods who bequeath Atlantis must be destroyed. (Compare to Numenor)

And I already mentioned that Lemuria has nothing to do with myth. It was meant to be a scientific explanation behind Lemurs.

Mu, on the other hand, is a similar idea to lemuria which has similarily shady origins. It came about in the 1800s when a man discovered a "sacred scroll" depicting how MU was a great continent situated on a gas pocket...when the gas pocket was released the continient sunk. The scroll, of course, never existed. But people used the idea anyway...especially mystics.

As for the Atlantis=Minoans theories, it is quite plausible, but some things just don't add up. The Minoans generally built square structures, while Atlantis was supposedly based on circular architecture (thus the concentretic walls), and the Minoans were not in any way warlike, while the Atlanteans were. I think Plato took the Minoans and some far older myth, stuffed them together into a single idea to use as a parable, and passed it off as history.

Pre-deluvian history is a terrible ground to get involved in, because you immediately have to put Nephlim into the monolith-building culture etc. A lot of people don't believe in a great flood. I do, because of all the myths, but by now you're on shaky ground.

All the arguments people use to prove the existance of Atlantis/Mu/Lemuria tend to be the same you could use to prove that Hyboria/Middle-Earth really existed. I read a book called "Forbidden history" and figured this all out. They don't aproach it from a logical, or even a truly historical, angle.

I suggest you read a book called "Can you Speak Venusian?" It's a great book about all the strage ideas people have--about Atlantis, Lemuria, and even the earth being flat! Everyone should read this, actually. Very entertaining.


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## Persephone (Aug 1, 2006)

Oh, okay, well, hurray for Plato!


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## Alcuin (Aug 1, 2006)

Narya said:


> Well, the mythology that I was referring to can't actually be found anywhere on the net. I think it's more of folklore than legend. I got it from a teacher in High School -- and he believed in it so much.


 !?


Narya said:


> I was not convinced though, the story is too wild to be true.


Good for you.


Narya said:


> ...maybe he (meaning my teacher) got it mixed up with another story.


You may be overly generous.


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## Uminya (Aug 1, 2006)

I always found Atlantis to be an interesting story, regardless of the historic evidence that Mike and Alcuin have so excitingly pointed out. Thankfully, there is always that little room for wonder that lets us look beyond the ordinary and hope in vain that there is something more interesting to the world than the usual sameness.

At any rate, there's little doubt that the story of Atlantis is based on a grain of truth of varying size, depending on which stories you read or listen to. There was undoubtedly an advanced civilization that was suddenly destroyed in a cataclysm, but most likely they could not breathe underwater, and most likely they did not build a fleet of ships to challenge the Undying West.


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## Persephone (Aug 2, 2006)

^ Thanks, Cir!  Glad someone understands.



Ciryaher said:


> there's little doubt that the story of Atlantis is based on a grain of truth of varying size...


 
I know, right? I mean, it's just too popular to be all myth. There are other stories about a civilization that sank into the depths of the ocean from other societies and these have never heard of Plato, nor read any of his works. They of course have a different name for Atlantis but the story is the same: advanced culture, huge civilization, and when the gods got angry, the ocean swelled and swallowed them whole. Not one of them escaped. If you ask me it's just too similar.


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## ingolmo (Aug 2, 2006)

Here's something I'd found on a cool website known as wizardrealm. Here's something I found on Atlantis on it. Apparently the writer was talking about the Great Lie or something and the fall and rise of wizards. I don't know whether this qualifies as mythological, religious, spiritual or allegorical, but it is something:

"In the earliest dawn of the great civilizations of earth, the ancient mystery schools spoke of two civilizations: Atlantis and Lemuria (MU). These civilizations had achieved technology (also known as applied magic) and spirituality unheard of on the Earth since that time. However, the magic and enlightenment came too easily because of the variability of the magnetic gridwork around the Earth in that era. Because people did not know truly understand the consequences of what they were creating, abominations were created that plagued the world for eons. People here did this not out of malice, but out of ignorance of what they were doing. Many of the monsters created are those spoken of in the ancient mythologies, including minotaurs (humans with the heads of bulls), centaurs (humans with the lower body of horses), satyrs (humans with the lower bodies of goats), giants, vampires, demons, gryphons, and other ill-created races. In addition, the Astral plane (plane of pure feeling and emotions) was being built, with no mediating force of a mental plane of awareness. Consequently, much pain and suffering was experienced in order to push the boundaries of the Astral plane as far as possible. 

On top of this, there were races of beings that had come to Earth to disrupt the working out of the Divine Plan. It was during this time that the Great Lie was spread; that to align one's will with the Divine would mean the annihilation of one's individuality. Humanity was terrified, and reacted from panic and anger at having been "tricked" by the Creative Force (otherwise known as God). A rebellion occurred in which much of the creative technology was turned towards destruction, and the firmament, the network of protective crystals just outside the atmosphere of the Earth, was destroyed, allowing the destructive radioactivity of the Sun's rays to penetrate to Earth. The genetics of humanity was physically altered; the DNA dropped from 12 strands to 2 strands, and humanity plummeted into physical dense manifestation rather than physical etheric. In order to protect the Divine Plan, the Divine Hierarchy withdrew from humanity, severing the connection with humanity (the breaking of the antakaranah) and from the Devic kingdom. It was at this time that the second fall of humanity, the one spoken of in the Bible as the "Tower of Babel" occurred, and the survivors of mankind were spread to the ends of the Earth. The great continents of Atlantis and Lemuria fell below sea level in the resulting floods, with only the top of the tallest mountains remaining above the level of the oceans. In Lemuria, these became the islands of Hawaii, Micronesia, and the Aleutian Islands; in Atlantis, the islands of Britain and Ireland."

So, apart from that, in the basic knowledge I have about Altantis, I don't think there's any scientific proof. But despite that, even though I don't believe in many things without much scientific proof, I'm inclined to believe that something with such a huge history and meaning would have existed. 

Thus, this means that I can't decide any answer to Narya's question.


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## Mike (Aug 2, 2006)

Excellent story, though the author most likely completely made it up. Great source for a novel. Actually, I'd like to see a novel like that one day.



> know, right? I mean, it's just too popular to be all myth. There are other stories about a civilization that sank into the depths of the ocean from other societies and these have never heard of Plato, nor read any of his works. They of course have a different name for Atlantis but the story is the same: advanced culture, huge civilization, and when the gods got angry, the ocean swelled and swallowed them whole. Not one of them escaped. If you ask me it's just too similar.


 
Well, yes. As I said earlier, Plato's Atlantis was very likely derived from more ancient stories, which he then fitted to his mold. The whole great flood/cataclysm phenomena in myth is common to all cultures, as is the "golden age" beforehand. If such a catalclysm occured, as I believe it did, the world would be greatly altered. One theory states that instead of the slow, creeping motions of conventional plate techtonics, we instead see a buildup of forces over a long period of time beneath the earth's surface that explode all at once at the breaking point, causing dramatic and disasterous change--whole continents sliding and colliding together, or plunging under the sea. The erratics, rocks that are on top of hills, more readily support a massive inrush of water from a powerful flood than the conventional theory of glaciers somehow sliding uphill (which they can't, let's face it.)

The basic idea behind Atlantis is probably true. If it is, the world looked very different back then. Some of humanity survived--and perhaps these leftovers created the monolith culture, which was able to build huge structures like stonehenge without modern technology--while stuck in a new dark stone/bronze age--because their thinking was more advanced in areas than ours.

Think of the Inca temples: stone cut so precisely that they could be fitted together without mortar and keep COMPLETELY STABLE, even standing today. Think of the pyramids, and how this type of structure was common to both north America and Egypt. Some forgotten civilization beforehand may have planted the seeds for these.

The IDEA of Atlantis was probably true, but Plato's Atlantis was just as likely not. This culture--if it existed--was probably not local. My bet goes on it being a world culture, with its own nations and areas of seperation--like Western Culture today.

Some closing thoughts:
-If the Atlanteans could breathe water, why did they live on land? And why were only two of them able to survive the flood?
-Some people believe Plato's account is true to the letter, saying it is "too detailed" to be false. Using the same logic, Tolkien's Middle-Earth was real, as the landscape is described to an even greater extent than even Plato described Atlantis.
-You can find "Lemuria" on a map of Conan's Hyboria--it's in the South-East corner..."In the days between when the Oceans sank Atlantis, and the rise of the sons of Arius, there was an age undreamed of..."


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## Durin's Bane (Aug 3, 2006)

Concidering the fact that Illion is real, not only a part of some story, for me that's proof enough that Atlantis also existed at some point. By the way, I saw this move a couple of weeks ago that showed a place in South America that perfectly fitted Plato's description... but South America seems pretty far away...

P.S. The popular name of Illion is Troy.


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## Shireman D (Aug 3, 2006)

Mike said:


> I think Plato took the Minoans and some far older myth, stuffed them together into a single idea to use as a parable, and passed it off as history.


 
There would be a lot more clarity in this discussion if the descriptors for the various literary forms could be used in some kind of consistent way - like, for example, for way they are used in literary criticism. Myth, parable and history are not related literary forms but serve very different purposes.

*exits grumpily to hoe onion rows*


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## Mike (Aug 4, 2006)

> P.S. The popular name of Illion is Troy.


 
I thought Troy was Illium. Never saw the spelling "Illion" before, perhaps it's another form.



> There would be a lot more clarity in this discussion if the descriptors for the various literary forms could be used in some kind of consistent way - like, for example, for way they are used in literary criticism. Myth, parable and history are not related literary forms but serve very different purposes.


 
Until Plato gets his hands on them. To clarify:

1. First and foremost Plato wanted a parable to illustrate his idea about civilization.
2. To give his parable weight, and to make people hearken to it more readily as an example, Plato decided to frame his parable as if it were true history.
3. In order to make the historical aspect of his inflated parable gain credit, Plato took the historical account of the Minoans and combined it with an older myth of a cataclysm destroying a far more powerful and far more ancient civilization.

Perhaps "parable" was not the right word, but in lack of a better term I decided to use it, and still do. Though this little bit here is probably getting a tad bit off topic...

(It's kind of ironic, because I took Literature classes in High School and will be taking more in university.)

--Note also that I am only 17, and have only had one year experience in the field of literary critism. Please instruct me, oh wise and great Shireman D, in my woes!--


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## Shireman D (Aug 4, 2006)

--Note also that I am only 17, and have only had one year experience in the field of literary critism. Please intstruct me, oh wise and great Shireman D, in my woes!--[/quote]

*(Looks up from Onions) Humph; no need to be sarky ... as amplified by your second post (continues to scratch at poor, dried soil) your usuage is not far off being orthodox. Try and read some decent historiographical theory some time, Marwick (1970) _The Nature of HIstory_ is a bit out of date now but used to be a good start when-I-wer-a-lad tho' he dunno much about parsnips ... (continues to hoe)*


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## Lord Sauron (Aug 6, 2006)

If none of you know they have figured the cuba was the mountains of atlantis and the mountains were not flooded leaving cuba to be what it is today. they say this because the have found ancient sidewalks and temples deep in cuban waters. Plus a flood may have destroyed atlantis but it didn't cover the Earth. I was caused by a comet that crashed off the coast of atlantis causing a tidel wave. To continue there was also a beast called the leviation that protected this city. a couple hundred million years later a monk painted a picture of a beast called the Kraken which is comes from the word leviation. Scientist believe that these best are giant squids because one washed on shore over in europe. The have been sigthings near and arounds cuba of these beast.


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## Mike (Aug 6, 2006)

I'm getting really into this topic. 



> To continue there was also a beast called the leviation that protected this city. a couple hundred million years later a monk painted a picture of a beast called the Kraken which is comes from the word leviation.


 
The leviathan is a biblical creature, supposedly one of God's most fearsome creations. Its presence in the bible, however, seems symbolic more than anything else. I have never heard told of the leviathan protecting Atlantis --the bible does not speak of Atlantis (Though it does speak of a pre-deluvian world). Plato's account of Atlantis never mentions the leviathan.

Unless you're just pulling my strings--which I hope you aren't. 

The leviathan is a lizard-like beast, while the kraken is more of a giant octopus, as told in norse legend. Neither ties in with the other. But giant squids do exist, which would explain the sightings.



> I was caused by a comet that crashed off the coast of atlantis causing a tidel wave.


 
Do you mean astroid? Because a comet would have caused the mass extinction of all life on earth if such an unfortunate event were to happen.

On the subject of comets:

I believe it was Velikovsky (or a name very similar to that) who wrote a book called _Worlds in Collision_. This book formulates the idea that Venus was once a comet, and that its orbit, every few centuries, goes erratic. These "erraticisms" caused the major disasters on earth recalled in myth--the flood, the destruction of Atlantis, but many scoff at it because we have a "collective amnesia" with which our society tries to destroy the memory of the cataclysm.

On the record, Venus is and never was a comet. 

I have heard of the underwater temples around Cuba--they aren't nearly as detailed as all the hype would make us believe. The underwater photographs show that only a road is clearly discernable--and it IS a road. The other structures could be just as surely geographical formations. So a civilization (probably the Maya) once built a road around here when that part of the Caribean was above ground. Not much beyond that can be proven, and it just shows the world was a very different place in olden times.

One last question: If you believe in the sinking of Atlantis, Lord Sauron, than how can you not believe in a global flood? That, if anything, has more evidence behind it than the Atlantis myth.

And I _really_ hope you're not just pulling my leg.

Anyway, great topic, and I love the discussion going around!


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## Shireman D (Aug 7, 2006)

The wide-spread flooding legends are much more likely to be collective folk-memory of the end of the last Ice Age.


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## Uminya (Aug 7, 2006)

Mike said:


> Do you mean astroid? Because a comet would have caused the mass extinction of all life on earth if such an unfortunate event were to happen.



Comets and asteroids come in a variety of sizes, and either a comet or an asteroid can have anything from a small effect to a very tremendous effect, depending on the composition of the object in question.



> On the record, Venus is and never was a comet.



Correct...



> One last question: If you believe in the sinking of Atlantis, Lord Sauron, than how can you not believe in a global flood? That, if anything, has more evidence behind it than the Atlantis myth.



The liklihood of a _global_ flood is close to none. There's no explaination for where the water could have gone in the time frame that civilization has existed. However, it's possible that the _known_ world was flooded, and in fact, very likely as several excavations in Mesopotamia, which is modern-day Iraq, indicate that there was a severe flood some thousands of years ago. This would also link to the Sumerian story *The Epic of Gilgamesh* as well as the story in the book of *Genesis* that tell of a great flood that wiped out all life in the "world", for one reason or another.


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## Mike (Aug 7, 2006)

One problem with that: North American natives have the same flood-myths, as do Polynesians, the Chinese, the Maya and the Inca.



> he wide-spread flooding legends are much more likely to be collective folk-memory of the end of the last Ice Age.



It depends who you ask. I rather like the flood-in-the-known-world idea somewhat more as source, but this is quite a reasonable possibility. (Melting ice-caps in different parts of the world would also serve to answer the above problem. However, the existance of an advanced civilization during the stone age would be needed to place it in the Atlantis/ Golden Age mythos.)



> Comets and asteroids come in a variety of sizes, and either a comet or an asteroid can have anything from a small effect to a very tremendous effect, depending on the composition of the object in question.



Quite true. Though i always believed the composition of a comet would require a larger size than that of an astroid--I'm not an astronomer, so some of my long-held ideas about space might be, er, slightly off.



> There's no explaination for where the water could have gone in the time frame that civilization has existed.



"Forbidden History" hypothesises that the waters came from the moon, and when a fluctuation in Venus' orbit caused the moon to move closer to earth, all the water from the moon came over here.

Heh, heh, heh.

It's stuff like this that makes that book one of the worst "historical" books I've read in a while. (I really don't understand how _anyone_ can still present Velikovsky's ideas as factual!)


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## Uminya (Aug 7, 2006)

Mike said:


> One problem with that: North American natives have the same flood-myths, as do Polynesians, the Chinese, the Maya and the Inca.



You didn't think the Tigris and Euphrates were the only rivers in the world that flood, did you? Of course each of these civilizaitons would see a calamity as affecting the "entire world", because that's the only world they know. I've never heard that the recordings of these events were at a similar time, however, and I doubt that they exist.

As you've proven, there is no _reasonable, scientific_ explaination for where all the water would have gone, considering that you would probably have at several million *cubic miles* of "lost water" to account for to be able to cover all of the world up to the height of even Mt. Ararat (which certainly isn't among even the 10 highest mountains in the world).


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## Turgon (Aug 7, 2006)

The Greek's also have a flood myth, Deucalion playing the part of Noah as it were. In my mind the ending of the last ice age is still the best candidate - if there is any candidate other than sheer happenstance.

The Atlantis Myth I think was a localized thing, at least at its birth. We have legends from all along the northwestern Atlantic seaboard telling a similar story, especially amongst the Celts. Lyonesse in Cornwall, Ys in Britanny, The Lost Cantrevs of Dyfed in Wales. All tell the same story. The eruption of Santorini explains the Greek tale perhaps, but would the people who were native to the Northwestern lands have a folk memory of such a thing? I don't think the Celts had even reached these places at this time, still living in a land locked Europe more than likely. So where do these stories come from?

The oceans themselves seem the likeliest candidates. How many coastal towns and villages have fallen victim to the fury of the sea and have fallen beneath the waves. We have a fair few in Britain that have been pulled down in the last few hundred years. There are places you can stand and see the ruins of an old village... only to see it lapped up by the tide. To a less advanced civilization what must that have seemed like? It wasn't that long ago that a land bridge still connected Britain to France.That's how myths and legends spring up. With people explaining away that which they do not understand. That's how Helios came to be driving the chariot of the sun. That's how Thor's hammer thundered across the fjords. That's why, when man first started to realize the true nature of the world, philosophers were accused of impiety. Socrates, Galileo... Von Daniken.

*giggles*

Meh... but anyway... just some thoughts.

The Atlantis myth we have today is not an ancient myth... but a myth of modern man. We have taken legends from all over the world and turned them into this. A heady coctail of half-truths. We still need myths. We still need something to make the loneliness of the human experience more palatable. As we head forward into an uncertain future, a future where the greatness of man begins to feel like nothing more than tragic hubris... it's a comfort to feel that we are just walking in ancient footsteps.


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## Mike (Aug 7, 2006)

> The Atlantis myth we have today is not an ancient myth... but a myth of modern man. We have taken legends from all over the world and turned them into this. A heady coctail of half-truths. We still need myths. We still need something to make the loneliness of the human experience more palatable. As we head forward into an uncertain future, a future when greatness of man begins to feel like nothing more than tragic hubris... it's a comfort to feel that we are just walking in ancient footsteps.


 
That is truly poetic. Thanks for the great post.


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## Alcuin (Aug 8, 2006)

Shireman D said:


> The wide-spread flooding legends are much more likely to be collective folk-memory of the end of the last Ice Age.


I agree. In addition, sea levels have risen considerably since the end of last Ice Age. Sequential severe flooding from broken ice-dams, such as Lake Missoula in the upper reaches of the Columbia River in North America, should have happened in many places. There are also _jökulhlaup_, such as those recorded in Iceland in the 1990s, an event recorded in Icelandic history but until witnessed by modern-day observers often considered merely legendary. Finally, there is the flooding of the Black Sea about 5,000 BC: this was also considered nonsense until Robert Ballard explored the seabed about 10 years ago and demonstrated that a massive flood had in fact taken place.

We often believe that our knowledge of world in which we live is extremely thorough, that we have a grasp of everything around us, and that we can modify or change our environment permanently. In fact, this is very difficult: the world is much larger than we imagine, and the environment around our planet affects it in ways we do not understand, though we have, perhaps, at last begun to grasp that our planetary environment is in turn connected to the space environment around us, such as solar weather and even local weather. 

We are still learning about our own world, much less the universe around us, and our knowledge remains disturbingly primitive.


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## Varokhâr (Aug 8, 2006)

Alcuin said:


> We often believe that our knowledge of world in which we live is extremely thorough, that we have a grasp of everything around us, and that we can modify or change our environment permanently. In fact, this is very difficult: the world is much larger than we imagine, and the environment around our planet affects it in ways we do not understand, though we have, perhaps, at last begun to grasp that our planetary environment is in turn connected to the space environment around us, such as solar weather and even local weather.
> 
> We are still learning about our own world, much less the universe around us, and our knowledge remains disturbingly primitive.



Very well-put  

And knowledge will not progress until all humans realize that they don't know it all, no matter which person or which book tells them they do.


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## Mike (Aug 8, 2006)

As Socrates said:

"I know that I know nothing."


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## Shireman D (Aug 11, 2006)

Mike said:


> As Socrates said:
> 
> "I know that I know nothing."


 
Really? I didn't realise that he was from Barcelona.


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## Firawyn (Aug 12, 2006)

I say yes, Atlantis was/is real. I say is, becasue I believe there are remains to be found in the depths of the ocean. Perhaps it's in the Barmuta Triangle. 

Some theorerize that the world was once one continate, one land mass, and that over time the plates shifted, broke up, etc. Somewhere in the middle of that event, I believe that Atlantis was indeed overcome by a massive tycoon, set off my more shifting. 

I'm very into anthropology, don't mind me. Did you guys know there is a field called Atlantology?

http://www.seachild.net/products225399.html 

View link...very cool.


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## Mike (Aug 12, 2006)

Yes, indeed, there is a field of Atlanteology. 

Check out "Atlantis Rising", the definative magazine for this field. I personally don't like it, as many of the theories it presents are seriously flawed, but some of the things in it are interesting, if only for humour purposes. A very few actually make you wonder....

Note: these are the same people who published "Forbidden History"...which I consider a waste, because very little of the good material in that magazine actually makes it in.

The Atlanteology movement was, of course, started by Ignatious Donelly, with his book "Atlantis: the Antideluvian world", published some time in the 1800s.

The postulation that the world was one continent is an old one, but you have to fit in the theory of rapid plate movement (pressure in the earth's techtonic plates causing massive change) in order for it to work. From a conventional scientific point of view, for the time humans existed the continents were pretty much where they are now.

The Bermuda triangle is just as likely a location for Atlantis as anywhere else. There's really no way to proove it.


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## Lord Sauron (Aug 12, 2006)

You are correct about the leviation being in the bible it can be found in Job. But from the stories i have been told there was a creature that proteced the great city and i belive it was called the leviation but noone knows for a fact if this is true. but the Kraken is a decendent of the levition also according to the stories i have heard. And Mike id do belive in a world flood but there was only one and that was during the time a noah and there is no way that atlantis could have been around at that time


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## Firawyn (Aug 13, 2006)

Lord Sauron said:


> ...there is no way that atlantis could have been around at that time



Why not? It is agreed that Atlantis was far more advanced than any other culture at its time, why couls Atlantis not have been in Noah's time?


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## Barliman Butterbur (Aug 13, 2006)

Narya said:


> Atlantis may have been real.



One of these days, perhaps technology will evolve the kind of equipment that may allow an investigation that will settle the question once and for all.

Barley


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## Firawyn (Aug 13, 2006)

Yeah, maybe by the 24th century....to bad none of us will be alive to talk about it.


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## Alcuin (Aug 13, 2006)

Barliman Butterbur said:


> One of these days, perhaps technology will evolve the kind of equipment that may allow an investigation that will settle the question once and for all.
> 
> Barley


If “Atlantis” was a Minoan city in the mouth of the caldera at Santorini, there’s nothing left except ruins like Akrotiri on the other side of the island partially shielded by the crater walls and buried under debris, or Knossos in Crete. The city itself, the famous island-in-an-island with waterways coursing through it, was blown to smithereens when the volcano exploded. If Santorini is the place.


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## Shireman D (Aug 15, 2006)

Lord Sauron said:


> You are correct about the leviation being in the bible it can be found in Job.


 
Job 41 is a poem about a mythic creature that is part of the common literary heritage of the ancient Middle East. In the Babylonian creation myth, the Enuma Elish, she is called Tiamat and the gods rend her body to provide the raw materials to make the safe space amidst the waters for humankind to dwell. In the Biblical myth (which has strong family likeness to the other elements of the shared tradition) Leviathan is absent and the creative act is about bringing order out of chaos. However, Leviathan does appear in Psalm 74. 13-14 as the Chaos Monster whose defeat makes creation possible.

Psalm 104.26 makes clear that he is an aquatic creature, 'Yonder is the sea ... and Leviathan you formed to play in it'.

In Biblical Hebrew the primary reference appears to be to the Palestinian fresh water crocodile now virtually extinct whereas in modern Hebrew the word simply means 'whale'. 

The Talmud says that Leviathan will be at the Messianic Banquet at the end of all ages - on the Menu: anyone for fish and chips?


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