# unnecessary armies



## reem (Feb 12, 2003)

why did the elves and men take armies with them to the mountain if their believed that the dwarves were dead and that there was no one left to gaurd the treasure? surely and entire ARMY wouldn't have been necessary?
reem


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## Gothmog (Feb 12, 2003)

How much treasure could a couple of Elves or Men carry from the mountain.


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## gate7ole (Feb 12, 2003)

Being sure that there were no dwarves alive is different than believing it. Also, they might fear an invasion from Dain of the Grey Mountains in case he was informed of the events.


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## reem (Feb 13, 2003)

i don't think so. first of all, to carry all the treasure they wouldn't take an army, they would take alot of waggons and the like (i.e means in which to transport the gold to their own holdings.) with perhaps a token gaurd or the like. but an entire army with no means of carrying the gold isn't what you would take on a mission like that.
second of all, the fact that both men and elves were extremely surprised when they heard of the comming of Dain's army proves that they had no idea he existed, or atleast that he knew about what was happening.
reem


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## faila (Feb 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by reem _
> *i don't think so. first of all, to carry all the treasure they wouldn't take an army, they would take alot of waggons and the like (i.e means in which to transport the gold to their own holdings.) with perhaps a token gaurd or the like. but an entire army with no means of carrying the gold isn't what you would take on a mission like that.
> second of all, the fact that both men and elves were extremely surprised when they heard of the comming of Dain's army proves that they had no idea he existed, or atleast that he knew about what was happening.
> reem *


 Its a book. We critique, possibly too much. Especially the hobbit, it doesnt have to make complete and total sense.


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## reem (Feb 15, 2003)

oh yah... well if you put it that way then ok hehe i supose we are over-critical of it but it's difficult not to be. i mean, when your ead something like LOTR and see how much a writer like TOlkien put in effort and work, you can't help but think that he thought of everything!! i mean, when i first saw the Silmarillion and heard of the other LOTR-related books he wrote i was stunned. he went into almost every detail...pretty amazing isn't it?
oh well, if he spent about 30 years in writting it then i suppose it should be that good. but i forget that the Hobbit was just an unplanned children's story when he first wrote it.
ok. that's it then.
reem


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## jallan (Mar 2, 2003)

Well, Thranduil would have known that Men lived at Laketown and he was travelling outside his own territory.

It would certainly make sense to come as a armed host, ready for any trouble that might occur.

They would probably have wains with them, as one would expect with an army in any case.


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## reem (Mar 6, 2003)

yes i suppose, but you're forgetting about Bard. He had no reason for fear. 
reem


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## jallan (Mar 9, 2003)

But the story is set in “the Wild”.

Essentially we are in an imaginary world mostly like early medieval times, in which travellers who had armour would mostly travel wearing it, unless important enough to afford armed guards.

It would be more suprising if Bard and his party set out unarmed.


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## reem (Mar 10, 2003)

and yet, if they were going into uncertain territory to get some treasure, woulnd't they atleast have sent a scouting party first, if they were that worried? instead of risking an entire army which would have been walking into a trap, perhaps?
or, if they were determined to take the whole package, they could have at least taken a means of carrying back the gold if all was clear!
reem


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## DurinLongBeard (Mar 11, 2003)

> and yet, if they were going into uncertain territory to get some treasure, woulnd't they atleast have sent a scouting party first, if they were that worried? instead of risking an entire army which would have been walking into a trap, perhaps?
> or, if they were determined to take the whole package, they could have at least taken a means of carrying back the gold if all was clear!
> reem



They probably did use scouting parties. The scouting parties would have found no resistance and, just as they did in the book, discover that the main gate was blocked and guarded. They wouldn't scout a day or two past the mountain. It just is not logical, making Dain's arrival a suprise. Meanwhile, the book never states whether or not they had wagons and the sort to transport the treasure back to their homes. Futhermore, why would they not go armed? They have a goblin army/fortress a week or so away and a large number of giant spider in the forest(note that they were the elves chief enemy) and no one has ventured far into the desolation of Smaug to say what else could lurk there. Also, if you were to go to a an ex-terrorist training camp in Afghanistan that is reportedly abanded but you are not sure if their is anything still there, would you go armed or unarmed? Personally, I would go armed. Just like the host of elves and men would(and did) go armed to Smaug's old home.


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## reem (Mar 17, 2003)

the men and elves went out as if for war, and they got it in the end but still they hadn't planned on it. it was a good precaution but not very logical...or atleast not expected or usual. that's just what i don't get. and i think that because no carts were mentioned there were no carts at all, which is another thing that bothers me. tolkien never leaves out these kinds of details.
reem


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## childoferu (Sep 6, 2009)

I'm sure they didn't bring their entire army...bump


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## Bucky (Sep 11, 2009)

You folks are reading too much out of (and into) the story....

First, EVERY army travels with many wagons & pack mules just for provisions. Could and would these not be used to 'carry the loot', especially as provisions ran down? Also, could 'the loot' not be sent down the River Running via raft to Esgaroth & up to the Elvenking's fortress just as goods had in the past?

Secondly, The Elves 'heard', from scouts of Laketown that Esgaroth was in ruins & turned aside there before approaching the Mountain. The scouts of the two armies (Elves & Laketown) only approached the entrance to the Mountain & found it blocked much later.

Thirdly, Tolkien says several times 'A HOST of Elves', not 'An Army of Elves'. This careful choice of words should indicate the Elves were marching to get the treasure, not looking for battle. 

Fourth, Don't male Elves ALWAYS seemed to be armed in EVERY story ever told in Middle-earth? Name ONE Elf in ANY story not armed other than Gwindor who escaped from Angband & Voronwe who escaped drowning in the sea by the grace of Ulmo. Name One, just ONE.......
Therefore, It is no indication that the Elvenking's 'host' having spearmen & bowmen were an army looking for battle. They were simply Elves being armed like Elves in case the need for weapons arose, as usual.

Fifth, what if some little Smauglettes were around the joint?
How do great, big dragons like Smaug get that way?
They're born, like in the Withered Heath were the Dragons multiplied from.

[/B]


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## Erestor Arcamen (Aug 18, 2014)

I just had to resurrect this thread for this part that made me lol:



Bucky said:


> Fifth, what if some little Smauglettes were around the joint?How do great, big dragons like Smaug get that way?
> They're born, like in the Withered Heath were the Dragons multiplied from.


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