# Lord of the Rings on Prime Updates (Thanks Varking!)



## Varking (Feb 15, 2019)

*Lord of the Rings on Prime*

September 2, 2022 is the official release date!

Amazon's official synopsis for the show:


> Amazon Studios’ forthcoming series brings to screens for the very first time the heroic legends of the fabled Second Age of Middle-earth’s history. This epic drama is set thousands of years before the events of J.R.R. Tolkien’s The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings, and will take viewers back to an era in which great powers were forged, kingdoms rose to glory and fell to ruin, unlikely heroes were tested, hope hung by the finest of threads, and the greatest villain that ever flowed from Tolkien’s pen threatened to cover all the world in darkness. Beginning in a time of relative peace, the series follows an ensemble cast of characters, both familiar and new, as they confront the long-feared re-emergence of evil to Middle-earth. From the darkest depths of the Misty Mountains, to the majestic forests of the elf-capital of Lindon, to the breathtaking island kingdom of Númenor, to the furthest reaches of the map, these kingdoms and characters will carve out legacies that live on long after they are gone.



*Social Media Links *

    

Official Map:







Official First Image:



Official First Video:


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## CirdanLinweilin (Feb 17, 2019)

Varking said:


> Just so everyone is aware the new show is getting a social media presence and we have a new map to look at that may or may not provide clues as to when the new series could take place.
> 
> Facebook -- Twitter -- Instagram -- Amazon


Interesting, the East of Middle-earth is shown...we know Aragorn journeyed far into other lands when he was younger..

CL


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## Varking (Feb 17, 2019)

CirdanLinweilin said:


> Interesting, the East of Middle-earth is shown...we know Aragorn journeyed far into other lands when he was younger..
> 
> CL


That's what everyone has been pointing out so the current belief is the show has to hit those areas for sure.


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## CirdanLinweilin (Feb 17, 2019)

Varking said:


> That's what everyone has been pointing out so the current belief is the show has to hit those areas for sure.


It does seem lore-accurate so far..


CL


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## Varking (Feb 18, 2019)

https://twitter.com/LOTRonPrime/status/1097495925163868162

They have now added text to some of the map.






https://amp-businessinsider-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/amp.businessinsider.com/amazon-going-to-huge-lengths-to-keep-lord-of-the-rings-series-secret-2019-2?amp_js_v=0.1#referrer=https://www.google.com&amp_tf=From %1$s

Salke also said that Tolkein's descendants are going to spend some time with Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos.

"His daughters and the grandchildren, they're coming to New York, and Jeff Bezos, me, Jeff Blackburn, a team of us are going and they've invited us to a dinner and see some art, some creative work that they haven't shown the world yet," she said.


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## Varking (Feb 25, 2019)

They added smaller town names to the map.


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## Alcuin (Feb 25, 2019)

Lovely map!

I don’t see any “smaller town names”. Am I missing them?

I’ve never before seen the mountains east of Rhûn on any Tolkien map. What is your source (if you don’t mind my asking)?

Do you have a version with more detail?


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## Varking (Feb 25, 2019)

The newer updated regions on the map are along the west coast and some other areas. This was pulled directly from Lort of the Rings on Prime's Facebook/Twitter/Instagram/Amazon site.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Feb 26, 2019)

Hi, I merged these threads and made it a sticky in this forum so we can use it to post updates to LOTR on Prime as they become available


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## Varking (Feb 27, 2019)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> Hi, I merged these threads and made it a sticky in this forum so we can use it to post updates to LOTR on Prime as they become available


Thank you. I will do my best to keep it up to date!


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## Varking (Feb 28, 2019)

Thank you to the staff for their work on cleaning up the spam on the forums while also enabling me to add more links to the OP. As more articles and information pops up I will continue to share and add them here!


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## Varking (Mar 2, 2019)

https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainme...ernment-talks-with-amazon-studios-stay-secret

New link added to the OP


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## Miguel (Mar 2, 2019)

So no more Scotland?. They'll be limiting themselves by filming everything in NZ again. Also, 1.49 billion, are you kidding me?. They can do a lot with that. I'd like episodes to be filmed in NZ but that statement _"NZ is the real ME"_ is a bit of a stretch. There are many locations around the world they could make good use of.


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## CirdanLinweilin (Mar 2, 2019)

Miguel said:


> So no more Scotland?. They'll be limiting themselves by filming everything in NZ again. Also, 1.49 billion, are you kidding me?. They can do a lot with that. I'd like episodes to be filmed in NZ but that statement _"NZ is the real ME"_ is a bit of a stretch. There are many locations around the world they could make good use of.


Darn it, I wanted something original and different this time.

I smell Peter Jackson afoot.

This already sounds bad news.



CL


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## Inziladun (Mar 2, 2019)

I share your thoughts, I heard they might make use of old sets and such is that true? Still there are many other places that would be great for filming something new.


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## CirdanLinweilin (Mar 2, 2019)

Inziladun said:


> I share your thoughts, I heard they might make use of old sets and such is that true? Still there are many other places that would be great for filming something new.


Well, I guess I am going to have Jackson flashbacks with the films now. 

*Sigh* 


CL


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## Inziladun (Mar 2, 2019)

It's a shame, I would rather not see a copy of a copy and all, still there is much they have to work with that Jackson did not include in the films, so perhaps there is some hope.


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## Ithilethiel (Mar 3, 2019)

Miguel said:


> So no more Scotland?. They'll be limiting themselves by filming everything in NZ again. Also, 1.49 billion, are you kidding me?. They can do a lot with that. I'd like episodes to be filmed in NZ but that statement _"NZ is the real ME"_ is a bit of a stretch. There are many locations around the world they could make good use of.



No Scotland! I had so little hope for this series when I first heard about it. Now even that small hope has dimmed. Sorry to be a grinch but just sayin'...


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## CirdanLinweilin (Mar 3, 2019)

Ithilethiel said:


> No Scotland! I had so little hope for this series when I first heard about it. Now even that small hope has dimmed. Sorry to be a grinch but just sayin'...


Same, I have little to no interest now, as it seems they are not for any sort of creativity, just the same Jacksonian art design. 

I do not even care about it anymore. They are catering to the films audience, the casual moviegoers.

Not us.

Bore.


CL


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## Miguel (Mar 3, 2019)

I'm not sure but it might be cheaper and more comfortable for them to have all production in one place instead of having crews taking flights to build sets around existing structures somewhere else, which is what i prefer. In case of the former, this will likely imply higher amounts of CGI work structure wise. I'll say it's very likely filming might take place in other areas as was hinted with the whole Scotland thing. That scouting group could be just one of many others who might have been visiting other potential filming locations, who knows. Speculation OC.


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## CirdanLinweilin (Mar 3, 2019)

Miguel said:


> I'll say it's very likely filming might take place in other areas as was hinted with the whole Scotland thing.


Here's Hoping.



JUST KEEP PETER JACKSON AWAY LIKE THE PLAGUE.



*Ahem*.


Deal, everyone?


CL


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## Miguel (Mar 3, 2019)

CirdanLinweilin said:


> Here's Hoping.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



lol, Peter The Usurper?.


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## CirdanLinweilin (Mar 3, 2019)

Miguel said:


> lol, Peter The Usurper?.


Yes, but worse.



CL


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## Varking (Mar 7, 2019)

New map updates today show off Numenor and then Amazon tweeted to confirm this show will be in the Second Age. Will update the OP soon it's just been busy at work today.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Mar 7, 2019)

Not sure if it's been posted by anyone but the official website lets you explore the map and zoom in as well: https://www.amazon.com/adlp/lotronprime

Edit: nvm, Varking is one step ahead of me. His OP has the link in it


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## Miguel (Mar 7, 2019)

Now we're talking. So, are they relying entirely on the Appendix?. Do they have rights to more material now?. Honestly, to be like: "oh we can use this but we can't use that" must be a pain in the neck. Anyway, this is wonderful magnificent frikking news.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Mar 7, 2019)

That and I guess they could be using material from the Silmarillion as well if it's Second Age, no?


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## Miguel (Mar 7, 2019)

If that's the case, not only this show just got a billion times more interesting, but it also means we're going to see the legends of the elder days in the future...Moringotho Bauglaro is coming.


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## Ithilethiel (Mar 7, 2019)

Please no!!!

Peter Jackson+The Silmarillion = a disaster of cataclysmic proportions 

Ugh


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## CirdanLinweilin (Mar 7, 2019)

Ithilethiel said:


> Please no!!!
> 
> Peter Jackson+The Silmarillion = a disaster of cataclysmic proportions
> 
> Ugh


You and me both sister.



CL


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## Miguel (Mar 7, 2019)

There were many different episode directors for GOT. Idk he might direct the ones that are located in NZ, or some of them. It's possible that he might just be producer or be in charge of screen play for some scenes or entire episodes.


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## CirdanLinweilin (Mar 7, 2019)

Miguel said:


> There were many different episode directors for GOT. Idk he might direct the ones that are located in NZ, or some of them. It's possible that he might just be producer or be in charge of screen play for some scenes or entire episodes.


Oh hell no, just cancel it now for that matter. I don't need PJ to ruin the Second Age for me too. 

How many times do we have to curse JRR's body and cause it to roll another 20 years.

If he is involved in any way, minute or not, I am _NOT _watching.


CL


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## Inziladun (Mar 7, 2019)

To be honest I am quite looking forward to this series, and though no film could encompass the vastness of Tolkien's works, to me it is plain and simple storytelling, no matter the form of media. It is how the stories survive in this age.


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## Varking (Mar 8, 2019)

Amazon seems to be catering to lore nerds like myself first and foremost right now. These aren't sexy updates to somebody who doesn't know what these places and what different ages are. Because of this I have hope that the show will be well respected and taken care of by Amazon when it comes to storytelling.


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## Miguel (Mar 8, 2019)

2021 is when is supposed to start right?. I think i read it somewhere a couple months ago.


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## Varking (Mar 10, 2019)

I will see if I can look it up but I was hoping they would start filming in 2020.


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## Ithilethiel (Mar 12, 2019)

Halasían said:


> One can only hope that this series will have good writing and directing. Being the way TV show work, I wouls suspect that Peter Jackson may be involved in a few episodes, and his 'creative license' impact will be minimal. I guess more to the point will be whoever has the reigns of overall production. I read on another site that there may be more to the deal with the Tolkien Estate where Amazon bought the rights. Up to now, everything produced relating to Lord of the Rings has been based on the original rights deals J.R.R. Tolkien himself. Despite Christopher Tolkien being against any 'film' rights after his opposition to the Peter Jackson movies, his children Simon, Adam, and Rachael, along with the rest of the board of directors of the Tolkien Estate, convinced him that it would happen eventually and he ceded some rights to more material in exchange for some assurances from Amazon not to do a 'Peter Jackson' with storyline changes. As he released The Fall of Gondolin, he decided that he would retire as director of the Tolkien estate and let things take its course.



Minimal, extremely minimal perhaps like sneezing as he walks past the Production door...


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## CirdanLinweilin (Mar 12, 2019)

Ithilethiel said:


> Minimal, extremely minimal perhaps like sneezing as he walks past the Production door...


Or better yet: No sound at all on the premises or 1000 feet from it!


CL


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## CirdanLinweilin (May 17, 2019)

Halasían said:


> Still, it won't be literary, but please keep PJ & Co away from this!


Agreed.


CL


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## Miguel (May 22, 2019)

https://www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2019-05-22/lord-of-the-rings-amazon-writer-game-of-thrones/


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## CirdanLinweilin (May 22, 2019)

Miguel said:


> https://www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2019-05-22/lord-of-the-rings-amazon-writer-game-of-thrones/


Oh no, if it's the GOT writers it WILL SUCK.

They already _"Blue-shelled" Game of Thrones_, so why not ruin Tolkien for that matter.







CL




*And _Star Wars_, too.


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## Miguel (May 22, 2019)

CirdanLinweilin said:


> Oh no, if it's the GOT writers it WILL SUCK.
> 
> They already _"Blue-shelled" Game of Thrones_, so why not ruin Tolkien for that matter.
> 
> ...




We and the good lore masters from this halls should take charge of such a task instead!. A new genesis is at hand, and we must be the creators!


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## CirdanLinweilin (May 22, 2019)

Miguel said:


> We and the good lore masters from this halls should take charge of such a task instead!. A new genesis is at hand, and we must be the creators!


ONWARD!





CL


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## VincentP (Jun 19, 2019)

I'm really suprised they chose the second age and the Tolkien estate agreed. There is so little original work about the second age, are they just gonna make it up as they go? Or are there stories of the second age I haven't read about beyond the mariner's wife and the fall on Numenor?


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## Miguel (Jun 24, 2019)

VincentP said:


> I'm really suprised they chose the second age and the Tolkien estate agreed. There is so little original work about the second age, are they just gonna make it up as they go? Or are there stories of the second age I haven't read about beyond the mariner's wife and the fall on Numenor?



I'm pretty sure they are going to have to make things up, it's inevitable. I hope it's good.


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## Varking (Jul 1, 2019)

*Auckland secures 'huge' part of US Amazon Lord of the Rings production - most expensive TV show ever at $1.5 billion plus *
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=12244913


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## CirdanLinweilin (Jul 1, 2019)

Varking said:


> *Auckland secures 'huge' part of US Amazon Lord of the Rings production - most expensive TV show ever at $1.5 billion plus *
> https://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=12244913


So, no other original shooting locations? New Zealand again? 



So much for originality there.

Please keep WETA away.


CL


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## Miguel (Jul 1, 2019)

CirdanLinweilin said:


> So, no other original shooting locations? New Zealand again?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I hope they change their mind in the future and don't keep themselves from using other locations if possible. Probably more CGI than ever but with that kind of money it might push boundaries far. But is till prefer to see real wear on structures etc... and not so many green screen scenes. The moment i start seeing textures that look too shiny or too perfect me no likes, and the green screen just makes everything look weird sometimes idk.


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## CirdanLinweilin (Jul 1, 2019)

Miguel said:


> I hope they change their mind in the future and don't keep themselves from using other locations if possible. Probably more CGI than ever but with that kind of money it might push boundaries far. But is till prefer to see real wear on structures etc... and not so many green screen scenes. The moment i start seeing textures that look too shiny or too perfect me no likes, and the green screen just makes everything look weird sometimes idk.


Agreed.


CL


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## Varking (Jul 3, 2019)

https://deadline.com/2019/07/the-lo...amazon-series-juan-antonio-bayona-1202640048/

Will direct the first two episodes.


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## Varking (Jul 3, 2019)

https://m.facebook.com/heroesandvillainsnz/

Casting call for the show


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## CirdanLinweilin (Jul 3, 2019)

Varking said:


> https://deadline.com/2019/07/the-lo...amazon-series-juan-antonio-bayona-1202640048/
> 
> Will direct the first two episodes.


Mainly a horror director, so some Sauron type horror?

CL


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## Miguel (Jul 3, 2019)

CirdanLinweilin said:


> Mainly a horror director, so some Sauron type horror?
> 
> CL



Hell yeah!.


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## Þráinn Þórhallsson (Jul 10, 2019)

VincentP said:


> I'm really suprised they chose the second age and the Tolkien estate agreed. There is so little original work about the second age, are they just gonna make it up as they go? Or are there stories of the second age I haven't read about beyond the mariner's wife and the fall on Numenor?



The reason is probably because the Tolkien estate wants to keep the Silmarillion to themselves. Given that a fair amount of the second age is covered in the Lord of the Rings appendices they can make a show about old middle earth without the Silmarillion. The Lord of the Rings appendices actually covers both Melkor, Luthien and the silmarils so here is hoping we get to see some of it if only in prologue.


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## Varking (Jul 27, 2019)

They just dropped a new video on our subreddit. 
EDIT. Removed link to not advertise it and found the video posted to Twtiter after

https://twitter.com/i/status/1155142047420080129


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## Varking (Jul 27, 2019)

Team so far:

J.D. Payne

Patrick McKay

Gennifer Hutchison

Helen Shang

Jason Cahill

Glenise Mullins

Justin Doble

Bryan Cogman

Stephany Folsom

J.A. Bayona

Belén Atienza

Bruce Richmond

Gene Kelly

Lindsey Weber

Ron Ames

Kate Hawley

Rick Heinrichs

Jason Smith

Tom Shippey

John Howe


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## Varking (Jul 27, 2019)

Sorry for the spam. I just figured out how to share the video here:





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=401382077176163


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## Miguel (Aug 3, 2019)

First season 20 episodes?...My oh my.


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## CirdanLinweilin (Aug 3, 2019)

Halasían said:


> I'm smelling a PJ rat here.....


Worse, the writers who ruined GOT are rumored to be circling like vultures around LOTR...


CL


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## Miguel (Aug 5, 2019)

Just about how much content would not come from the books in 20 episodes?. It's crazy, i want to watch a trailer already but i also worry of course. Hope everything fits nicely.


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## Varking (Aug 7, 2019)

CirdanLinweilin said:


> Worse, the writers who ruined GOT are rumored to be circling like vultures around LOTR...
> 
> 
> CL


They officially signed with Netflix today.


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## CirdanLinweilin (Aug 7, 2019)

Varking said:


> They officially signed with Netflix today.


Great, now they can ruin Narnia!


XD XD XD     

CL


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## Arthfael (Aug 8, 2019)

Hi all, _mae govannen_, I've been watching for a thread about this, I enjoy all the different opinions coming out of the making of this new series. (@Varking I do hope it's alright that I'm adding this, please let me know.  )

I found a link, here, that gives a whole lot of information about what's going on with the series so far. The biggest/most interesting/important looking things I've seen so far are these:

"On July 3, Amazon announced that J.A. Bayona, who directed 2018's Jurassic World: Fallen Kingdom, is directing the first two episodes of the Lord of the Rings show."

"...the Amazon team has "exceptional ideas to bring to the screen previously unexplored stories based on J.R.R. Tolkien's _original writings_." THe series will be taking place in the Second Age.

"Amazon reportedly paid close to $250 million for the rights, making it the most expensive TV series ever. That doesn't, of course, include the money it'll cost to hire the actors and crew and actually make the sure-to-be-pricey show. The Hollywood Reporter speculates that the whole shebang could cost more than $1 billion."

Hope that gives more info!
_Na lû e-govaned vîn_


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## Miguel (Aug 8, 2019)

Apparently, they have green light to make things up as long as they're in tune with Tolkien's writings. However, Tolkien Estate also has green light to say: 'How dare you, remove this!.


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## CirdanLinweilin (Aug 8, 2019)

Miguel said:


> However, Tolkien Estate also has green light to say: 'How dare you, remove this!.


That's a relief!


CL


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## Miguel (Aug 8, 2019)

CirdanLinweilin said:


> That's a relief!
> 
> 
> CL



I think is a good thing, freedom inside restriction.


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## CirdanLinweilin (Aug 8, 2019)

Miguel said:


> I think is a good thing, freedom inside restriction.


Amen to that!

CL


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## Erestor Arcamen (Aug 9, 2019)

Found this article on what they're forbidden from changing:









Tolkien Scholar Reveals the Changes Amazon’s ‘Lord of the Rings’ Series Is Banned From Making


Tolkien scholar Tom Shippey is working on the Amazon series and says the first season will run 20 episodes.




www.indiewire.com


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## Varking (Aug 10, 2019)

Arthfael said:


> Hi all, _mae govannen_, I've been watching for a thread about this, I enjoy all the different opinions coming out of the making of this new series. (@Varking I do hope it's alright that I'm adding this, please let me know.  )
> 
> I found a link, here, that gives a whole lot of information about what's going on with the series so far. The biggest/most interesting/important looking things I've seen so far are these:
> 
> ...


You are more than welcome to add stuff here. It’s hard to keep up with everything when sharing to 3-4 sites, 2 discord’s and a subreddit while still trying to remember to eat and breath . Thanks for contributing!


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 17, 2019)

"We feel like Frodo, setting out from the Shire, with a great responsibility in our care".

That Frodo set out on a quest to _destroy _something lends a bit of an ominous tone to that statement -- intended or not.

On the upside (for me at least), no PJ.


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## Olorgando (Sep 6, 2019)

In the first JRRT site I joined back in 2013, I found this news tidbit:
“It seems that actor Will Poulter (from The Maze Runner series) has been cast as a lead role in the upcoming LoTR TV series.”

As I’m seriously *non*-current on things filmmaking since about the year 2000 (except PJ’s JRRT fanfics), I popped over to Wikipedia for some enlightenment. Which led to my following comment to the above post in that other JRRT site:

“Yikes, what a pup! _(he’s only 26 years old, but seems to have been in some “Narnia” film, besides the "Maze Runner" stuff mentioned above.)_
Though by some of JRRT's writings about the aging of the Númenóreans of the royal line (those 400-year-olds) he could play an 80-year-old.
But still, barring the use of heavy prosthetics, are Amazon gearing this to the teenie market? _*shudder*_”

Actually, I’m only posting my curmudgeonly comment in the hope of getting Erestor Arcamen out of boredom as declared in a post to my introductory thread: “So glad, I was getting bored not having to moderate anyone since yinz all behave so well.” _(Though mayhaps I’m just too old for a revolutionary …)_


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## CirdanLinweilin (Sep 6, 2019)

Olorgando said:


> In the first JRRT site I joined back in 2013, I found this news tidbit:
> “It seems that actor Will Poulter (from The Maze Runner series) has been cast as a lead role in the upcoming LoTR TV series.”
> 
> As I’m seriously *non*-current on things filmmaking since about the year 2000 (except PJ’s JRRT fanfics), I popped over to Wikipedia for some enlightenment. Which led to my following comment to the above post in that other JRRT site:
> ...


This post is a riot.


He played Eustace Scrubb in _Voyage of the Dawn Treader_. 


CL


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## Olorgando (Sep 8, 2019)

Another tidbit from that other JRRT site, this time dealing with "Amazon's writing ream!"

"After hearing some of the details about the upcoming Amazon Middle Earth production, I'm getting nervous. Mainly, the writing team has me cringing: two Abrams Star Trekkers (J.D. Payne, Patrick McKay) and a Game of Thrones and a Breaking Bad writer each. Quite a rogues gallery, IMHO. How could you get more unlike the High Tory Luddite pre-Vatican II monarchist J.R.R. Tolkien than that? After watching Amazon's "Carnival Row" with its rough, crude GoT vibe, I fear such a low-brow approach for any ME they'd do. I always felt that Jackson et al. just barely stumbled across the finish line, but with these Amazon philistines? Alas...."

Both named writers as well as named shows draw a complete blank with me. The shows may be on some of our private TV channels, and I may have seen that in our TV's internal "TV guide" while scrolling through. But as for content - nada.

So my question: should we start worrying, or like the above poster, get nervous?


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## CirdanLinweilin (Sep 8, 2019)

Olorgando said:


> Another tidbit from that other JRRT site, this time dealing with "Amazon's writing ream!"
> 
> "After hearing some of the details about the upcoming Amazon Middle Earth production, I'm getting nervous. Mainly, the writing team has me cringing: two Abrams Star Trekkers (J.D. Payne, Patrick McKay) and a Game of Thrones and a Breaking Bad writer each. Quite a rogues gallery, IMHO. How could you get more unlike the High Tory Luddite pre-Vatican II monarchist J.R.R. Tolkien than that? After watching Amazon's "Carnival Row" with its rough, crude GoT vibe, I fear such a low-brow approach for any ME they'd do. I always felt that Jackson et al. just barely stumbled across the finish line, but with these Amazon philistines? Alas...."
> 
> ...


Yes.





CL


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## Linden (Oct 6, 2019)

The twitter posts of the maps quote the ring poem. Suggests to me that the forging of the rings is something they will explore. Not sure how much freedom they will have to mix up the timeline. Including Numenor on the map is also likely not accidental. The rings were intended to give power over the environment, time/aging, and other beings and the rise and fall of Numenor deals with pride and arrogance and the quest for immortality. These are all themes that could be explored within the setting of SA ME (along with the traditional love/loss/honor/betrayal). Weren't the rings forged in Eregion, near the gates of Moria? There is the awakening of the Balrog of Moria and the closing of the borders of Lorien and the estrangement of dwarves and elves. They have 5 years and a billion dollars and are hoping for GOT type popularity and reach - so a look at what worked well to keep up popular interest should give a sense of the type of series to expect, generally speaking. I believe I read that PJ offered to help if it seemed appropriate. Whatever one thinks of his films he did pull off a remarkable technical feat, and the cast and crew seemed pleased and happy generally with the work environment he created. While I don't care personally for the LOTR films as a whole, they each include some beautiful cinema and all were both popular and financially successful - not a trivial achievement. I expect Amazon's take to be large on character development and interpersonal drama and shorter on spectacle than PJ's films - this is what makes for good 'TV' if you will.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 7, 2019)

Some good points, Linden -- and welcome to the forum! As always, you can indroduce yourself on the new members thread, if you like, and say something about your own particular interests; others may be able to help direct you to specific forums here -- there are so many, it gets a bit confusing! It's here:









New Members


Meet and greet the newest TTF members. -- [ One thread per new member only! ] --




www.thetolkienforum.com





I haven't been keeping up with all the news on this series. One thing I'm wondering: is this just "the LOTR Project" or is "The Lord of the Rings" in the title? If so, it would seem necessary to have Sauron as the central figure, and the casting would be crucial, as he would need to project a great nobility; otherwise, his seduction of both the Elves and Numenoreans would not be very convincing.


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## Linden (Oct 7, 2019)

I'm sure Sauron will be a central figure, and perhaps it won't be clear, at first, who he is. As the story goes he gave knowledge to the elves, and they to him, but he had no part in the forging of the three. The one was forged in Orodruin in Mordor in secret. I can't remember the temporal juxtaposition of the forging of the rings of power and the fall of Numenor, but if the include both these threads then I would expect them to overlap in the series. Alternatively they could have different time lines going. The corruption of the bearers of the nine could also figure in. Sauron lost his fair form at the fall of Numenor I believe, so the ring creation would preceed that...

I participated in discussions about PJ's movies as they were being created, and of course read the books long ago. I am curious to see what the Amazon effort produces.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 7, 2019)

S.A. 600 return of first Numenorean ships to Middle Earth

c. 1200 Sauron begins seduction of Elves. Numenoreans begin permanent havens

c. 1500 Elves begin forging Rings of Power

1590 The Three Rings

1600 Sauron forges the One

1693 War of Elves and Sauron begins

1700 Sauron defeated, returns to the East

1800 Numenoreans establish dominions on the coasts

c. 2251 Nazgul appear

3261 Ar-Pharazon lands at Umbar

3319 Downfall of Numenor

There could well be some overlapping, but I'd expect the stories of the Rings and the corruption of Numenor to be covered by different seasons.


----------



## Olorgando (Oct 7, 2019)

Linden said:


> … There is the awakening of the Balrog of Moria ...


Thank you for your update, Linden.
But the Balrog of Moria does not appear until the year 1980 *Third* Age, according to Appendix B in RoTK, "The Tale of Years", section "The Third Age".
So if Amazon is "doing" the Second Age, no (awake) Balrog in Moria.
But then what does "Hollywood" (used as an extensive term) care about accuracy … 🤨


----------



## Linden (Oct 7, 2019)

Thanks for those timelines both. It's been a while since I looked at the apendicies. I was just offering an opinion based on reading press accounts of the past few months, so not really an update with new information. One piece suggested that Brexit uncertainty figured into the decision to go to New Zealand, which has studios, landscape, and expertise with this type of project.


----------



## Olorgando (Oct 7, 2019)

Linden said:


> One piece suggested that Brexit uncertainty figured into the decision to go to New Zealand, which has studios, landscape, and expertise with this type of project.


Now that's an interesting point. I vaguely recall that locations in Scotland were being mulled over. I' guessing the Scots (who voted against the Brexit anyway) are getting madder and madder at those lunatic Tories.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 7, 2019)

We do tend to frown on politics here.


----------



## Olorgando (Oct 8, 2019)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> We do tend to frown on politics here.


Par for the course. It's just getting difficult for me to keep current politics (world-wide) separated from what clinical psychiatrists might diagnose as severe cases requiring stationary treatment, in maximum-security wards in some cases. 😨


----------



## Linden (Oct 8, 2019)

Point of order - what are the rules for posting links to exrernal sources? I am getting a spam warning when trying to do so.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 8, 2019)

I suggest a PM to Erestor Arcamen, our hardworking mod, about that.


----------



## Erestor Arcamen (Oct 8, 2019)

It may depend on the site or if you're a newer member since we've had issues with spam/bot accounts posting external links in the past. Not to say that you're a spammer (you're obviously not) but that's what I would think would be the cause.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 8, 2019)

I don't know if it's similar, but still get an occasional "Oops! We ran into problems" notice when I post. Normally, if I backbutton and try again, it works OK.


----------



## Olorgando (Oct 8, 2019)

I just went into my most recent post in the ”What music are you listening to at this moment?” thread in the Green Dragon Inn forum, which has the link to the Deep Purple “Stormbringer” YouTube music file (no video) from my reply to Miguel’s post just above, and clicked on “edit”.

The link then shows up as text (I’m guessing the ominous “BB code), which I copy over to a Word file, to make it visible I’m substituting parentheses for the square brackets, and also leaving the original with the square brackets at the bottom to see if the link survives being copied to Word from my above-mentioned mentioned post, and then back into this post here.
(MEDIA=youtube)tNWWIKqMKr8(/MEDIA)






EDIT
OK, seems to work. Of course this is not the same as being in the source program and linking from there (or whatever it is those with fewer than ten thumbs IT-wise do).


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 8, 2019)

Here's one of the articles Linden was trying to link. Let's give it a try:









Exclusive Interview with Tom Shippey concerning LOTRonPrime


Just 20 minutes after the release of the Amazon trailer for the creative team of the Lord of the Rings series, we had the opportunity at Tolkien Thing to interview Tom Shippey, our Guest of Honour, about the trailer and the project exclusively. He is one of the 20 names presented in the video and ha




www.tolkiengesellschaft.de





Is that the one, Linden?


----------



## Linden (Oct 8, 2019)

yep


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 8, 2019)

Oh, good!


----------



## Olorgando (Oct 9, 2019)

I think I already read that interview via a link provided on one of my other JRRT sites (probably CoE), as the interview took place before I joined here.
If Shippey is right about the series starting to be aired in 2021 (20 years after PJ's "Fellowship") they still have a way to go.
I have no recollection of what kind of or how many "peeks" at the works in progress for the LoTR films were released.
Certainly the Internet was a much smaller part of daily lives back then (it would still be six years after "Fellowship's" before Apple introduced the first i-phone!).


----------



## Erestor Arcamen (Oct 9, 2019)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I don't know if it's similar, but still get an occasional "Oops! We ran into problems" notice when I post. Normally, if I backbutton and try again, it works OK.



I get that once in a while as well. I think it's just a bug on the site possibly.


----------



## Linden (Oct 10, 2019)

So, there are two 'provisional' names - "Tyra" (Kyra?) and "Beldor". Not much else I could dig up at the moment. I am guessing Numenorian characters and that the forging of the rings of power and the rise and fall of Numenor will figure as the main subjects. Any thoughts on the names, as in not elvish?


----------



## Olorgando (Oct 10, 2019)

Linden said:


> So, there are two 'provisional' names - "Tyra" (Kyra?) and "Beldor". Not much else I could dig up at the moment. I am guessing Numenorian characters and that the forging of the rings of power and the rise and fall of Númenor will figure as the main subjects. Any thoughts on the names, as in not elvish?


As for knowledge about Elvish, as per a post I found elsewhere here Galin seems to be the one to ask here.
Scouring my Guides / Companions / Lexicons yields nothing starting with either Ty or Ky.
But "Tyra" does conjure up visions of "Tauriel", the PJ-invented female warrior Elf (awfully close to a Mary Sue) in The Hobbit film series. Er ...
"Beldor" - only thing I find there is "Baldor", eldest son of the second King of Rohan and thus grandson of Eorl the Young. He ended up as the skeleton found on the Paths of the Dead under the Dwimorberg mountain of the White Mountains which Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli and the northern rangers found when they took the short-cut from Dunharrow to the south - in book certainly, in movie (EE?) maybe.
They're trolling (or trawling? I can't stop getting the two confused) for names, perhaps …


----------



## CirdanLinweilin (Oct 11, 2019)

Olorgando said:


> As for knowledge about Elvish, as per a post I found elsewhere here Galin seems to be the one to ask here.
> Souring my Guides / Companions / Lexicons yields nothing starting with either Ty or Ky.
> But "Tyra" does conjure up visions of "Tauriel", the PJ-invented female warrior Elf (awfully close to a Mary Sue) in The Hobbit film series. Er ...
> "Beldor" - only thing I find there is "Baldor", eldest son of the second King of Rohan and thus grandson of Eorl the Young. He ended up as the skeleton found on the Paths of the Dead under the Dwimorberg mountain of the White Mountains which Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli and the northern rangers found when they took the short-cut from Dunharrow to the south - in book certainly, in movie (EE?) maybe.
> They're trolling (or trawling? I can't stop getting the two confused) for names, perhaps …


It's not like elvish and Tolkien language sites are just a tap and click away....


Rich people...*NO *creativity.



Found this out today:

https://variety.com/2019/tv/news/lord-of-the-rings-series-amazon-cast-joseph-mawle-1203378172/






CL


----------



## Olorgando (Oct 22, 2019)

CirdanLinweilin said:


> Found this out today:
> 
> CL


Anothet GoT alum … _*scratches head*_


----------



## Miguel (Nov 10, 2019)

Joseph Mawle, a villain called "Oren"?. 

Orendil?, i'm confused. I think he's a nice addition.


----------



## CirdanLinweilin (Nov 10, 2019)

Miguel said:


> Joseph Mawle, a villain called "Oren"?.
> 
> Orendil?, i'm confused. I think he's a nice addition.


Why aren't they looking up _**actual**_ Tolkien names instead of making them up? It reeks of lazy direction.


I got the name for my fan-fic (which I WILL get back to) from just searching online, says a lot about Amazon.

CL


----------



## Miguel (Nov 10, 2019)

CirdanLinweilin said:


> Why aren't they looking up _**actual**_ Tolkien names instead of making them up? It reeks of lazy direction.
> 
> 
> I got the name for my fan-pic (which I WILL get back to) from just searching online, says a lot about Amazon.
> ...



Requesting Shippey  

Is Oren "Orendil" Isildur?. Maybe a provisional nickname?.


----------



## CirdanLinweilin (Nov 10, 2019)

Miguel said:


> Requesting Shippey
> 
> Is Oren "Orendil", Isildur?. Maybe a provisional nickname?.


Or they could just ask Shippey, yeah.


This doesn't bode faithfulness to the text if they can't even be faithful with something as simple as names!


CL


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## Miguel (Nov 11, 2019)

CirdanLinweilin said:


> Or they could just ask Shippey, yeah.
> 
> 
> This doesn't bode faithfulness to the text if they can't even be faithful with something as simple as names!
> ...



Yes, i agree the language etc has to be 100% correct.


----------



## CirdanLinweilin (Nov 11, 2019)

Miguel said:


> Yes, i agree the language etc has to be 100% correct.


Indeed! 


CL


----------



## Olorgando (Nov 11, 2019)

Miguel said:


> Requesting Shippey
> 
> Is Oren "Orendil" Isildur?. Maybe a provisional nickname?.


As per my lexicons, Orendil was the eldest son of Eldacar II, the latter being the 21st King of Gondor (1432-37 and 1447-90 Third Age). Eldacar II in his turn was the son of Valacar, who had lived long among the Northmen of Rhovanion (at the wishes of *his* father Rómendacil II), and had married the daughter of their King Vidugavia, Vidumavi. Eldacar was thus seen by some in Gondor as "half-breed", which led to the rebellion and interregnum from 1437-1447 TA by the tyrannical Castamir the Usurper. Among Castamir's misdeed was the execution of Orendil.


----------



## Erestor Arcamen (Nov 25, 2019)

Exclusive: Main Characters for Amazon’s ‘Lord of the Rings’ Revealed?


New details emerge regarding the lead characters of Amazon’s mysterious ‘Lord of the Rings’ TV series.




observer.com


----------



## Olorgando (Nov 30, 2019)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> Exclusive: Main Characters for Amazon’s ‘Lord of the Rings’ Revealed?
> 
> 
> New details emerge regarding the lead characters of Amazon’s mysterious ‘Lord of the Rings’ TV series.
> ...


Beldor; Tyra; Oren; Eldien (supposedly main character?); Neldor; Eira; Aric; Calenon; Loda; Kari; Hamson; Cole.
They're staying away from canon character names, it seems.

That said.
There's not that much canon about the Second Age, mostly from "Unfinished Tales":
"The line of Elros: Kings _(missing: Queens!)_ of Númenor"
"Aldarion and Erendis: The Mariner's Wife"
"The history of Galadriel and Celeborn"

All of the "Rings" action takes place in Middle-earth.
1200 "... but the smiths of Eregion are won over [by Sauron, having been rebuffed by Gil-galad]"
1500 "The Elven-smiths … begin the forging of the Rings of Power"
1590 "The Three Rings are completed in Eregion"
1600 "Sauron forges the One Ring …"
1693 "War of the Elves and Sauron begins …"
1695 "Sauron's forces invade Eriador …"
1697 "Eregion laid waste. Death of Celebrimbor …"
1699 "Sauron overruns Eriador."
1700 "... Sauron is defeated"
1701 "Sauron is driven out of Eriador …"

But this is mostly Elven stuff. Gil-galad, Celebrimbor, Elrond, Cirdan … Galadriel and Celeborn in "cameos"?

Those names bandied about by the linked article and that I wrote above do not sound Elven.
And never mind the short character descriptions.
The latter sound just all too Seventh Age (I may have previously mentioned my severe Dallas 'n' Dynasty allergy …) 🤢


----------



## Miguel (Dec 12, 2019)

Poulter left the project for scheduling problems. Also, that Bragollach in New Zealand was crazy.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Dec 13, 2019)

Another addition to the cast:









‘The Lord Of The Rings’: Ema Horvath Joins Cast Of Amazon Series


EXCLUSIVE: Ema Horvath has been cast as a series regular in Amazon Studios’ high-profile Lord of the Rings TV series, I have learned. Reps for Amazon and the actress declined comment. Set in Middle…




www.google.com


----------



## Olorgando (Dec 13, 2019)

Miguel said:


> ... Also, that Bragollach in New Zealand was crazy.


Wondering if that's the volcanic island I once (fairly recently) saw a documentary on.
Iffy, as I believe that access to *that* one was limited to professional volcanologists.
Not that some of those haven't made deadly mistakes.
Seems those pimples on the earth's surface continue to put our arrogance to shame again and again.
But then there's the Dunning-Kruger effect, probably responsible for more that half of what makes it into the evening news (or videotext).


----------



## CirdanLinweilin (Dec 13, 2019)

Olorgando said:


> Wondering if that's the volcanic island I once (fairly recently) saw a documentary on.
> Iffy, as I believe that access to *that* one was limited to professional volcanologists.
> Not that some of those haven't made deadly mistakes.
> Seems those pimples on the earth's surface continue to put our arrogance to shame again and again.
> But then there's the Dunning-Kruger effect, probably responsible for more that half of what makes it into the evening news (or videotext).


Toss a gold ring in.


XD


CL


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## CirdanLinweilin (Dec 13, 2019)

This is very interesting, and a really good and faithful Tolkien music group, to boot!


https://www.change.org/p/amazon-hav...or-amazon-s-lord-of-the-rings-original-series





CL


You can see their talent in the Christmas Songs thread thanks to Aldarion's contribution.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Dec 18, 2019)

"Young Galadriel" cast:









‘Lord of the Rings’ Series Taps Morfydd Clark as Young Galadriel (EXCLUSIVE)


“His Dark Materials” star Morfydd Clark has landed a lead role in Amazon’s upcoming “Lord of the Rings” series. She joins a cast that includes Markella Kavenagh, Josep…




www.google.com


----------



## CirdanLinweilin (Dec 18, 2019)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> "Young Galadriel" cast:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've seen her, she was in a film about how C Dickens wrote his beloved Christmas Carol, pretty good, I just wish I could see more of what she can do.


CL


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Dec 18, 2019)

That's reassuring, but, as the series is, if I understand correctly, limited to the Second Age, I wonder how big a part she'll have -- Galadriel didn't play a very prominent role during the era, compared to other characters.

Of course, they'll be inventing a lot of stuff, so who knows? I just hope we won't be seeing any PJ-style Arwen/Tauriel Elf Warrioress scenes from her.

BTW -- "Young" is a relative term, with Galadriel!


----------



## CirdanLinweilin (Dec 18, 2019)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Of course, they'll be inventing a lot of stuff, so who knows? I just hope we won't be seeing any PJ-style Arwen/Tauriel Elf Warrioress scenes from her.
> 
> BTW -- "Young" is a relative term, with Galadriel!


I mean, wasn't she some type of athlete in Aman, or something like that? I might have to go find where I read that....(of course, I don't expect Amazon to know that at all).


And yes, _very _relative.
XD



CL


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## Olorgando (Dec 18, 2019)

*YOUNG* Galadriel?!?!? She was born in Valinor in the days of the two trees, sometime during the three Valian Ages that Melkor was held prisoner there (at first in Mandos). At the time of the rebellion of Fëanor she was an adult Elf and counted among the (junior - JRRT never quite finalized this) leaders of The Noldor. If she had been born in the first Valian Age of the captivity of Melkor in Valinor, she could have been upwards of 20 000 sun years old at the rebellion! (And Cirdan would be way beyond 30 000 - at the end of the Third (sun) Age pushing or past 40 000.)
My fanfic rash is already starting to act up severely ...


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Dec 18, 2019)

She was certainly more "active" in the First Age than the Second, IIRC.



Olorgando said:


> *YOUNG* Galadriel?!?!?


I think we were typing at the same time.


----------



## Olorgando (Dec 18, 2019)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> ... Galadriel didn't play a very prominent role during the era [Second Age], compared to other characters. ...


Not in the War of Sauron and the Elves over the rings. Some dusty memory from UT or HoMe has her going through Moria (or up to Rivendell and over the pass that "The Hobbit" cast failed to traverse above-ground?) on the Way to Lothlórien or something of the sort, before that war got started.
At the end of the Third Age, anyway, she was the only original holder of one of the three Great Elven Rings that Celebrimbor had given these to. Gil-galad had given his to Elrond before he perished in the combat with Sauron (together with Elendil) on the slopes of Mount Doom at the end of the Second Age, while Cirdan had given his to Gandalf when the latter arrived in Middle-earth at about the year 1000 Third Age.


----------



## Miguel (Dec 18, 2019)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> "Young Galadriel" cast:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My god, what a flower.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Dec 18, 2019)

I had no exact image in mind, but an impression of wisdom and dignity. I thought Cate conveyed that creditably -- at least from distant memory of the films.

"Scary Galadriel" is another matter, and down to PJ's misreading.


----------



## Olorgando (Dec 19, 2019)

Halasían said:


> Say wha...???? Seriously? My expectations for this series has just dropped dramaticly. Why do they think that Galadriel has to look even close to Cate Blanchett?
> Now I liked Cate, but she wasn't how I portrayed Galadriel looking in my book-reading mind. Now I like Ms Clark, but no...


I guess we book nerds just have to face the fact that we are definitely not the core target demographic for this Amazon series. That might have been the case for "Fellowship" back in 2001, but between then and 2015 (EE of BoFA released) there have been six films (twelve if you count the EEs separately) establishing their own "canon" for the films-only set - or the casual readers of the books. Ian McKellen is Gandalf, Christopher Lee is Saruman, Cate Blanchett is Galadriel, Sean Astin is Sam, Viggo Mortensen is Aragorn, Martin Freeman is the younger Bilbo, Orlando Bloom is Legolas (and a very special case), ...
Taking that as a starting point, I am not surprised that they are trying to hitchhike on any recognizability factor to give the audience their aha moments.

But then, this is the first canon character to be cast, apparently?


----------



## CirdanLinweilin (Dec 19, 2019)

Olorgando said:


> But then, this is the first canon character to be cast, apparently?


Which worries me, and the only one with an actual Tolkien name.




CL


----------



## Olorgando (Dec 19, 2019)

CirdanLinweilin said:


> Which worries me, and the only one with an actual Tolkien name.
> CL


After TH, you should be immune to worrying (and the reference to a "young Galadriel" above should have driven the final nail on the coffin of anyone's "canon" hopes).

I may have mentioned here on TTF in another thread that I saw "Fellowship" in the cinema twice with the space of less that half a week in January 2002 (none of this standing in endless lines for the chance of a "premiere" for me). After the first viewing I basically only had this huge list in my mind about thing where PJ had gotten things wrong. The second time around I viewed the film pretty much with the attitude "some names and places and events have been heisted from the book, but that's about it." Had I gone into "TTT" and "RoTK" with my attitude for the first viewing of "Fellowship", I would probably have left at the intermission at the latest.

I didn't know the term at the time, but they're "fanfics". With the usual Hollywood modus operandi of adding irrelevant filling to make them fit their brain-dead cookie cutter better.

With TH, especially after announcing that this would also become a "trilogy", it was clear to me that the fanfic plus Hollywood garbage aspect would increase immensely.
Interestingly, while with the LoTR series showed an increase in film length (in EEs at least) with a serious spike upwards in cinema and EE versions for the finale, TH showed exactly the opposite trend. In both versions the finale was the shortest.

So now we arrive at Amazon. From LoTR to TH, the amount of canon source material shrank dramatically. For the Second Age, the shrinkage is at least as dramatic. By some strict defenitions, there is *nothing* canon about it besides the relevant RoTK appendices. So … "let's do a GoT clone here, those junkies with massive withdrawal symptoms are just salivating for another fix!" could very well be the rallying cry for Amazon. Everything is becoming a soap opera / telenovela, it seems ...


----------



## CirdanLinweilin (Dec 19, 2019)

Olorgando said:


> After TH, you should be immune to worrying (and the reference to a "young Galadriel" above should have driven the final nail on the coffin of anyone's "canon" hopes).
> 
> I may have mentioned here on TTF in another thread that I saw "Fellowship" in the cinema twice with the space of less that half a week in January 2002 (none of this standing in endless lines for the chance of a "premiere" for me). After the first viewing I basically only had this huge list in my mind about thing where PJ had gotten things wrong. The second time around I viewed the film pretty much with the attitude "some names and places and events have been heisted from the book, but that's about it." Had I gone into "TTT" and "RoTK" with my attitude for the first viewing of "Fellowship", I would probably have left at the intermission at the latest.
> 
> ...


Sadly true....



CL


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Dec 19, 2019)

I'm wondering if they're going with invented characters because it gives latitude for "new" stories, or because of some constraints from the estate on the use of canon. Anyone know?


----------



## Erestor Arcamen (Dec 19, 2019)

> Kahu said this was the biggest project he had ever worked on, far surpassing the demand and interest of movies such as _Avatar_.
> 
> Already, he said KAM talent had found people to play body doubles of key actors. He said the main focus of this first season would be Gandalf the Grey.
> 
> "It's about the Second Age, 2000 years before The Fellowship Of The Ring. You'll see orcs in different a light, and different styles of people. There might even some humans," he said.











LOTR agents scout pubs, Christmas parades, building sites


If you're very short or very tall, hairy, wrinkled, missing teeth or look "weathered", LOTR wants you.




www.stuff.co.nz


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Dec 19, 2019)

Tolkien Ubergeek Colbert gave his take last night. 2:15:


----------



## Olorgando (Dec 19, 2019)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> "Kahu … said the main focus of this first season would be Gandalf the Grey."
> "It's about the Second Age, 2000 years before The Fellowship Of The Ring. You'll see orcs in different a light, and different styles of people. There might even some humans,"


*WHAT?!?!?!?*
I guess Tom Shippey is too old to be going through the premises and swatting any people giving off such mindless drivel with (in his case) a cricket bat.
I mean if you have trouble distinguishing the terms "Second" and "Third", what are you qualified for that requires mental abilities above that of a door stopper?
"You'll see orcs in different a light ..." So PJ seems actually to be lurking in the background, and is finally fulfilling his sick little fantasy of having the baddies portrayed positively, something he could not do in LoTR, except in little scenes that still got rightfully shredded. That bit about being a specialist for slasher movies and the like earlier ...


----------



## Erestor Arcamen (Dec 19, 2019)




----------



## CirdanLinweilin (Dec 22, 2019)

Halasían said:


> As they are so fond of saying in Star Wars...
> _"I have a really bad feeling about this..."_


I tried to warn you when this was first announced, mate.



CL


----------



## Erestor Arcamen (Dec 23, 2019)

Amazon's Lord of the Rings TV Show Is Prime's Last Chance To Succeed


Amazon Prime has struggled to keep up in the age of streaming, and its last hope lies on the shoulders of its upcoming Lord of the Rings TV series.




screenrant.com


----------



## Miguel (Dec 23, 2019)

Whatever happens i hope it pleases so i can be happily waiting for the next episode.


----------



## Olorgando (Dec 23, 2019)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> Amazon's Lord of the Rings TV Show Is Prime's Last Chance To Succeed
> 
> 
> Amazon Prime has struggled to keep up in the age of streaming, and its last hope lies on the shoulders of its upcoming Lord of the Rings TV series.
> ...


Oh great! They're desparate! This has the potential for making us look back *fondly* on PJ's stuff after _*they're*_ through! 🤢
I feel the shades of Ackerman and Zimmerman on the prowl …


----------



## CirdanLinweilin (Dec 24, 2019)

Halasían said:


> Yeah I know. Stilll, I had to give them a chance to not try and out PJ PJ.


I assure you, it was valiant.


CL


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Dec 24, 2019)

If the situation for Prime is as tenuous as the article suggests, it could, on the one hand, push them to emphasize high-quality, original writing and production. On the other hand, they may feel the need to play it safe, and go with lowest-common-denominator clichés.


----------



## CirdanLinweilin (Dec 24, 2019)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> If the situation for Prime is as tenuous as the article suggests, it could, on the one hand, push them to emphasize high-quality, original writing and production. On the other hand, they may feel the need to play it safe, and go with lowest-common-denominator clichés.


Ten bucks on the latter.


CL


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Dec 24, 2019)

No bet.


----------



## Olorgando (Dec 25, 2019)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> If the situation for Prime is as tenuous as the article suggests, it could, on the one hand, push them to emphasize high-quality, original writing and production. On the other hand, they may feel the need to play it safe, and go with lowest-common-denominator clichés.





CirdanLinweilin said:


> Ten bucks on the latter.
> CL





Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> No bet.


I'll back CL's bet with 1000 €! 👿


----------



## Miguel (Dec 31, 2019)

I want Harrison Ford to be in this show please. Btw happy new years eve, Uber is a friend!


----------



## CirdanLinweilin (Dec 31, 2019)

Miguel said:


> Uber is a friend!


Not for people who've been attacked or worse but you do you! 

Happy New Years!

CL


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Dec 31, 2019)

Miguel said:


> I want Harrison Ford to be in this show please.


If he gets any more haggard-looking, he'd do for Hurin Released.


----------



## Miguel (Dec 31, 2019)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> If he gets any more haggard-looking, he'd do for Hurin Released.
> 
> View attachment 6313



Hell yeah!


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Dec 31, 2019)

Of course, that's First Age material, so apparently out.


----------



## Gabriel Perry (Jan 2, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I'm wondering if they're going with invented characters because it gives latitude for "new" stories, or because of some constraints from the estate on the use of canon. Anyone know?


I've heard that they were going to be basing it roughly off of the Silmarillion... but I wouldn't put much be that.

Quick answer.... Is it even worth watching in any sense? Even if you have to throw out the possibility of it being canon?


----------



## Olorgando (Jan 3, 2020)

Gabriel Perry said:


> Quick answer.... Is it even worth watching in any sense? Even if you have to throw out the possibility of it being canon?


There are basically three groups of viewer:
The book-first set, by tendency older on average (it *has* been 18 years since "Fellowship" premiered), including the hard-core book nerds, many critical of PJ.
The film-first set who felt motivated by the films to go take a look at the book sources, with varying results; some may have also become book nerds.
The film-only set, whose only "knowledge" of "book-canon" is derived by the harangues of the book nerds on sites like this, perhaps also in print and TV.
I see no reason why the third set, at the very least, might *not *_(edit: oops!)_ be eagerly anticipating the Amazon series.
As I mentioned elsewhere, there are aspects of the six films over both books in which PJ and the entire crew did an amazing job (some CGI from LoTR might look a bit dated by now). So the template against which the Amazon series will be measured by the film-only set is PJ's double trilogy.
As I posted above (oh - on Christmas Eve my time - and very early in the morning ...) that could be a tall order for Amazon ...


----------



## Gabriel Perry (Jan 3, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> There are basically three groups of viewer:
> The book-first set, by tendency older on average (it *has* been 18 years since "Fellowship" premiered), including the hard-core book nerds, many critical of PJ.
> The film-first set who felt motivated by the films to go take a look at the book sources, with varying results; some may have also become book nerds.
> The film-only set, whose only "knowledge" of "book-canon" is derived by the harangues of the book nerds on sites like this, perhaps also in print and TV.
> ...


 Good answer, thanks. I'll probably try it apprehensively.


----------



## CirdanLinweilin (Jan 3, 2020)

Halasían said:


> I would venture to say that we have gotten far enough past the PJ FanFix that there are some young teenage folk who are discovering Lord if the Rings from the _books_ again. I had a discussion with a couple!


Never thought I would be hearing that in my young Twenty-Three year life.


CL


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jan 15, 2020)

Main cast is affirmed:









‘Lord of the Rings’ Series at Amazon Sets Main Cast


Amazon’s “Lord of the Rings” series has officially announced its main cast. Robert Aramayo, Owain Arthur and Nazanin Boniadi are among the series stars. Also joining the cast is T…




www.google.com


----------



## CirdanLinweilin (Jan 15, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Main cast is affirmed:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting.......cast.





CL


----------



## StarGift (Jan 19, 2020)

I would venture to say that we have gotten far enough past the PJ FanFix that there are some young teenage folk who are discovering Lord if the Rings from the _books_ again. I had a discussion with a couple! This is a _good_ thing that will likely be ruined by this Middle Amazon Earth fanfic coming up.
[/QUOTE]

Yes there are. I am one of those "young teenage folk" you know we should think of the PJ movies as fanfics. They're like fanfics where "what if the hobbits never met Bombadil?" "What if Faramir was super rude and kept them in basically a prison cell?" What if" "what if"...


----------



## Olorgando (Jan 19, 2020)

Varking said:


> Just so everyone is aware the new show is getting a social media presence and we have a new map to look at that may or may not provide clues as to when the new series could take place.
> Current Map:


I need some search help here.
I have this bee in my bonnet that somewhere on TTF there must be a thread which may also show this map, but definitely shows several others.
It might be that rather than the other maps being explicitly shown as Varking did with this one, the post contained a link to another site where the actual other maps are shown (some for all of Middle-earth, with Aman pre-downfall-of-Númenor still on the left edge, IIRC).
Does anyone remember which thread this might have been, if it existed at all?

Many thanks in advance. 🤔🤔🤔


----------



## NerdoftheRings (Feb 7, 2020)

Wanted to share a video I just released on my YouTube channel, highlighting everything Sauron was up to in the Second Age. Thought it might be of interest as we look forward to the Amazon series and some more Sauron action!


----------



## Olorgando (Feb 8, 2020)

NerdoftheRings said:


> Wanted to share a video I just released on my YouTube channel, highlighting everything Sauron was up to in the Second Age. Thought it might be of interest as we look forward to the Amazon series and some more Sauron action!


Not a bad summary … with a handful of "factual" (aka as contra-"canon", with all the ambiguities of that term) errors, but certainly far fewer than Peter Jacksom committed in his LoTR film trilogy.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Mar 3, 2020)

The Latest Gossip:




__





Redirect Notice






www.google.com





Or is it? That article says "5 months ago", but there are a bunch of breathless news pieces saying "28 minutes ago". I don't know -- I haven't been keeping up.


----------



## Olorgando (Mar 4, 2020)

The only name I recognized in the whole article was "J.R.R. Tolkien". But then I have trouble recognizing the names of participants in German film and TV productions since about the turn of the millennium, so I am not surprised. 😶


----------



## CirdanLinweilin (Mar 4, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> The Latest Gossip:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Who?






CL


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Mar 4, 2020)

OK -- so we're _all _out of touch?


----------



## CirdanLinweilin (Mar 4, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> OK -- so we're _all _out of touch?


I don't watch much TV so yep.



CL


----------



## Olorgando (Mar 4, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> OK -- so we're _all _out of touch?





CirdanLinweilin said:


> I don't watch much TV so yep.
> CL


The two of us should be heaving sighs of relief that it's not just us borderline dementia old coots that are confused, Virginian (OT: wasn't there a TV show in the 1960s titled "The Virginian"? I have no inkling (!) if I am insulting you or making you nostalgic with this comment ...). CirdanL is ten years away from Hobbit coming-of-age, or five years younger than Pippin at the beginning of "Fellowship". And I must say that, compared to what we are able to receive as unencoded TV (mainly public channels HD), there seems to be a vast sector of encoded stuff (as I noticed during sorting of the enforced scan I had to do about a year ago), and that exclude streaming ...


----------



## CirdanLinweilin (Mar 4, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> The two of us should be heaving sighs of relief that it's not just us borderline dementia old coots that are confused, Virginian (OT: wasn't there a TV show in the 1960s titled "The Virginian"? I have no inkling (!) if I am insulting you or making you nostalgic with this comment ...). CirdanL is ten years away from Hobbit coming-of-age, or five years younger than Pippin at the beginning of "Fellowship". And I must say that, compared to what we are able to receive as unencoded TV (mainly public channels HD), there seems to be a vast sector of encoded stuff (as I noticed during sorting of the enforced can I had to do about a year ago), and that exclude streaming ...


I think that was a western show, actually.





And yeah, exactly ten years from age Hobbit age.



CL


----------



## Olorgando (Mar 4, 2020)

CirdanLinweilin said:


> I think that was a western show, actually.


Correct. When my parents and I came to the US back in 1966, there were tons of those ("Gunsmoke", "Bonanza", "Rawhide", "The Rifleman" etc. I can't recall which of these were then still original broadcasts and which were syndication repeats. I also have a dim memory about US TV still fighting the Second World War at the time. And I don't mean the maximally pathetic "Hogan's Heroes". I mean 12-O-clock High about US (army) airforce bombing runs, the "Rat Patrol", and others I have forgotten. All by current terms seriously "fake news".


----------



## Erestor Arcamen (Mar 4, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> OK -- so we're _all _out of touch?



Yes all of us, Amazon included


----------



## Olorgando (Mar 4, 2020)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> Squint-eyed Southerner said:
> 
> 
> > OK -- so we're _all _out of touch?
> ...


Erm - we here on TTF (and on other JRRT sites) and Amazon, and the other way around.
Amazon is unlikely to be catering to our nerdy preferences … just a hypothesis … 🤨


----------



## CirdanLinweilin (Mar 8, 2020)

Trouble afoot.....










CL


----------



## CirdanLinweilin (Mar 8, 2020)

And More...












CL


----------



## Miguel (Mar 9, 2020)

So much destruction, probably for the better. If Shippey is not on board anymore they should hire Simon Cowell, he must have read the books. There's gotta be more scholars besides Shippey come on.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Mar 9, 2020)

I dunno. These firings seem to be rumors, and all I've seen so far is sourced to those two guys. I'll wait for confirmation.


----------



## Erestor Arcamen (Mar 11, 2020)

According to this post, they're on an expected hiatus, not fired.



> 2:08am
> 
> Post #41 of 45 (262 views)
> Shortcut�
> ...


----------



## Olorgando (Mar 11, 2020)

CirdanLinweilin said:


> Trouble afoot.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...





CirdanLinweilin said:


> And More...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A lot of overlap - the worst news (if true) would be the firing of Tom Shippey - we seem to be headed for brainless Hollywood cookie cutter territory again (where is my personal H-bomb that I need to exterminate such crap?!?)


----------



## Miguel (Mar 19, 2020)

Stop everything and make it animated (traditional), two episodes every weekend with a nice intro song and outro.
Keep the actors for voice acting, hire more voice actors and bring back Shippey/disciples and everyone (me) happy 🐥


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Mar 19, 2020)

Could be interesting, but -- after the movies? Not gonna happen.


----------



## Miguel (Mar 19, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Could be interesting, but -- after the movies? Not gonna happen.



Not cgi, traditional. I want to see Ted Nasmith's, Alan lee's, John Howe's, Ian Miller's, etc style of artwork in motion, that's what i want.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Mar 19, 2020)

Oh, me too!

But as I said, post-PJ, live action is going to be the moneymaker.


----------



## Miguel (Mar 19, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Oh, me too!
> 
> But as I said, post-PJ, live action is going to be the moneymaker.



They could use their resources to push animation to a level never seen before, in the manner that i was referring to of course, not the other. It's not too late to change their minds.


----------



## CirdanLinweilin (Mar 19, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> live action is going to be the moneymaker.


And Amazon loves $$$



CL


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Mar 19, 2020)

All corporations love $$$ -- that's why they exist!  

Still, I'm not sure this would be being done, at least by Amazon, if Jeff Bezos didn't also love Tolkien.


----------



## CirdanLinweilin (Mar 19, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> if Jeff Bezos didn't also love Tolkien.


I'm not a fan of the cast, and after Chris T's unfortunate Passing, I have no hope for it.
I wish it wasn't being made to be honest.



CL


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Mar 19, 2020)

Well, I'll wait for the result. Will I be completely satisfied with it? I doubt it. I guess I'll just be happy if it causes me less teeth-grinding than PJ did.


----------



## CirdanLinweilin (Mar 19, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I guess I'll just be happy if it causes me less teeth-grinding than PJ did


I just hope the finished result is not PJ looking saintly in comparison.



CL


----------



## Erestor Arcamen (Mar 20, 2020)

This is older but this is Amazon's LOTR map








Amazon shares interactive Middle-earth map for Lord of the Rings series


Explore the landscape that will be featured in the upcoming take on J.R.R. Tolkien's fictional world.




www.cnet.com


----------



## Olorgando (Mar 20, 2020)

Just checked out Wiki's article on "Lord of the Rings", section 7 "Adaptations", subsection 7.3 "TV":

"In March 2020, the production of the series was shut down due to the 2019–20 coronavirus pandemic."

This could be a big, very big monkey wrench in the gears of Amazon's plans. Weren't they planning to start "airing" the series in 2021?


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Mar 20, 2020)

It's not just them, of course -- the film and TV industries are being affected worldwide. For instance:



Disney Suspends Film Production Amid Coronavirus Concerns


----------



## Olorgando (Mar 20, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> It's not just them, of course -- the film and TV industries are being affected worldwide. For instance:
> 
> 
> 
> Disney Suspends Film Production Amid Coronavirus Concerns


This is a "Catch-22" situation with a vengeance. With people staying home (restrictions are being ratcheted up quickly in Germany as apparently up to a quarter of the population - my guess is mostly the "Smombie" set - consider the restrictions effected so far to be "scaremongering"!), they are watching (a lot) more TV. And doing a lot more streaming on the Internet, one non-trivial part is schoolchildren doing electronic learning there. It has led to load problems for existing servers.
The Catch-22 is that while people are (seriously) raising their media consumption, the supply of new *content* could be grinding to a halt. This would then probably mean re-runs on a scale unprecedented in the relatively short history (maybe 70 years for TV, certainly less than 30, more probably 20 for Internet) of electronic media.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Mar 20, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> And doing a lot more streaming on the Internet


It's about to get harder for you guys:


Redirect Notice


Though I won't be surprised if it happens over here soon. One NPR program I heard last night was dedicated to which old TV shows people are binge-watching. Oddly -- to me -- the oldest one mentioned was "Cheers". I don't consider that very "old" -- maybe because I myself am very old!

I intend to watch a bunch of _really _old stuff on youtube: serials, Charlie Chan, Mr. Moto. And I have my Film Noir and Busby Berkeley box sets.

Republic, here I come!


----------



## Olorgando (Mar 20, 2020)

Suddenly, my collection of DVDs takes on a whole new meaning! 😜


----------



## Erestor Arcamen (Apr 17, 2020)

REPORT: Amazon's Lord of the Rings Parts Ways With Tolkien Scholar Tom Shippey


Acclaimed Tolkien scholar Tom Shippey has reportedly departed Amazon's Lord of the Rings television series.




www.cbr.com


----------



## Olorgando (Apr 17, 2020)

That was already a rumor a month ago, and it still only says "reportedly".
No official statement from Shippey or Amazon yet, apparently.


----------



## CirdanLinweilin (Apr 17, 2020)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> View attachment 6643
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If I wasn't watching before I sure as hell ain't now.


CL


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jun 16, 2020)

With Covid 19 under control in New Zealand, it looks like production is underway again.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/lrmonline.com/news/amazons-the-lord-of-the-rings-will-abandon-planned-six-month-hiatus-according-to-star/amp/


----------



## Ealdwyn (Jun 16, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> With Covid 19 under control in New Zealand, it looks like production is underway again.


Well it _was_ under control. They've just had 2 more cases.

I will watch the show - it will be impossible not to - but I'm expecting to hate a lot of it. I just hope there will be some parts of it that I love, too.
(I know, I know. Don't burst my bubble)


----------



## Miguel (Jun 20, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> With Covid 19 under control in New Zealand, it looks like production is underway again.
> 
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/lrmonline.com/news/amazons-the-lord-of-the-rings-will-abandon-planned-six-month-hiatus-according-to-star/amp/



Well, i guess no animation then


----------



## Ealdwyn (Jun 24, 2020)

Looks like a casting call. 









Lord of the Rings TV series issues New Zealand casting call for 'funky-looking' people


Talent agency job ad lists long skinny limbs, acne scars, facial lines, missing bones and large eyes as desirable features




www.theguardian.com


----------



## Miguel (Jun 27, 2020)

Awesome!. I have skinny limbs, hire me


----------



## Miguel (Aug 18, 2020)

Since the first two episodes are already filmed how about they show it late this year, maybe Christmas?. That way we can get a little taste of what's to come.


----------



## Erestor Arcamen (Oct 5, 2020)

Nudity May Be Featured in Amazon's 'Lord of the Rings' TV Series - Knight Edge Media


----------



## Ealdwyn (Oct 5, 2020)

I have to agree with the comment about not turning it into GoT. Explicit sex and nudity is used to boost viewing figures in circumstances where the writing is too weak to get the ratings on its own merits. If that's the plan from the outset, then it doesn't exactly inspire confidence in the series.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 5, 2020)

I believe I speak for many here, when I say:
AAARGH!!!


----------



## Miguel (Oct 5, 2020)

It's probably going to be just mild nudity but they hired an intimacy coordinator so there might be more than that who knows. Whatever happens i'm sure is just going to be mild and not GOT depravation.


----------



## Starbrow (Oct 5, 2020)

I think it's time for me to hide under the covers and read my Tolkien books.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 6, 2020)

Sounds like a good plan. I may follow that myself!


----------



## CirdanLinweilin (Oct 6, 2020)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> Nudity May Be Featured in Amazon's 'Lord of the Rings' TV Series - Knight Edge Media


Called it. I knew Amazon couldn't help their perverted selves.


CL


----------



## Ealdwyn (Oct 6, 2020)




----------



## Erestor Arcamen (Oct 7, 2020)




----------



## Varking (Dec 7, 2020)

Halasían said:


> Getting back to some form of seriousness on this, Amazon has announced more of the cast...
> 
> *More Amazon Middle Earth series cast announced*.


Appreciate you sharing this here.


----------



## CirdanLinweilin (Dec 7, 2020)

Halasían said:


> Getting back to some form of seriousness on this, Amazon has announced more of the cast...
> 
> *More Amazon Middle Earth series cast announced*.


This is looking less like Tolkien's pre-history England and more like Modern Day America....

😒😤😠🤔🤫😐😑

CL


----------



## Olorgando (Dec 7, 2020)

CirdanLinweilin said:


> This is looking less like Tolkien's pre-history England and more like Modern Day America....
> 
> 😒😤😠🤔🤫😐😑
> 
> CL


Do any of the names ring a bell with you, CL?
That they don't do so for me is pretty much to be expected, since my film and TV viewing has sharply nose-dived in at least the last 20 years.

_(There's a nice ironic twist to this: this is pretty much the time when we "retired" a 17-year-old tube TV set, and first had access to the burgeoning number of TV channels via cable - my mother did the same, in her case with a high-end satellite dish; the apartment building we had lived in previously - 1990s - had installed a satellite dish that only yielded 12 channels, and our ancient TV set was limited in the number of slots that could be stored. So in 1999, new. up-to-date (still tube) TV set, dozens of channels to be accessed without a decoder (hundreds *with* a decoder - we still don't have one!) - and my TV viewing headed for the Marianas Trench. _🤢_ )_


----------



## CirdanLinweilin (Dec 7, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> Do any of the names ring a bell with you, CL?


I could not name them from manners.


Only actor/actress I recognize is for _"young"_ Galadriel.  


CL


----------



## Ealdwyn (Dec 8, 2020)

I recognise a couple of the names: Peter Mullen, Lenny Henry

But it's this bit _"the television adaptation will explore new storylines preceding J.R.R. Tolkien’s The Fellowship of the Ring_". 
I assume that *new storylines* means that they're going to make it all up, rather than adapt canon? 

Time to post this again:


----------



## CirdanLinweilin (Dec 8, 2020)

Halasían said:


> Guess I'll be curious what part she, and the others will play.


Southron? Easterling? If we want to go by Tolkien's universe, but I guess THAT "Cat is out of the bag" too. 



I guess I'll keep my book-centric Tolkien separate from whatever this GOT wannabe is.



CL



P.S.: Yes I am a curmudgeon.


----------



## Olorgando (Dec 8, 2020)

CirdanLinweilin said:


> I guess I'll keep my book-centric Tolkien separate from whatever this GOT wannabe is.


If it really turns out to be a GoT wannabe, it'll join its true source of "inspiration" in my virtual "gave it a pass" dustbin.

I watched less than ten minutes combined of two GoT episodes, being in their I-don't-know-what re-run past midnight or even 1 AM on one of the junior channels of one of the two private, commercial-financed conglomerates. I think I recognized *one* character that also appeared in PJ's stuff ...

Smaug! 🦇😁


----------



## Ealdwyn (Dec 23, 2020)

I've not done any real study of the maps on the series website, but I stumbled across *this post* on tumblr which goes into them in detail. 
Makes for interesting reading.


----------



## Varking (Dec 24, 2020)

CirdanLinweilin said:


> Southron? Easterling? If we want to go by Tolkien's universe, but I guess THAT "Cat is out of the bag" too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don’t think this is being a poor sport or anything. I separate the movies from the books. They were a directors take on the novels and not a true adaptation. That is how I’m viewing this show as well.


----------



## Oromedur (Mar 14, 2021)

Varking said:


> I don’t think this is being a poor sport or anything. I separate the movies from the books. They were a directors take on the novels and not a true adaptation. That is how I’m viewing this show as well.


Quite. Whatever this is, it is merely an adaptation. It takes nothing away in terms of value from the texts at all.

I am cautiously optimistic that there will large elements of this upcoming work that I can enjoy, and, anything I do not like, I will set aside.

It is also an opportunity to keep Tolkien alive in people’s minds and will turn some to the texts beyond LOTR.

I also do not care if there is some nudity and even sex in it (as long as the Eldar are not involved) as that is understandable particularly in the context of Numenor.

I hope it is a great success overall and in future I would give much to see an adaptation of the wars with Angmar and Glorfindel handing the Witch-King his bottom at Fornost.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Mar 14, 2021)

Cecil B. DeMille realized long ago you could get away with showing all manner of naughty behavior, if it was portrayed by the "evil" side.


----------



## Varking (Jun 13, 2021)

Just wanted to give an update: If you are interested in leaks this is the account to follow



https://twitter.com/FansFellowship



And here is his latest video where they found documents between Amazon and NZ about promoting the show with some date ranges for those interested.


----------



## Erestor Arcamen (Jun 30, 2021)

Lord of the Rings star doesn't know when he'll get to leave New Zealand


“We’ve been here a long time,” says American actor Benjamin Walker. “It is a bit nebulous at this point."




www.stuff.co.nz


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jun 30, 2021)

Dayna Grant To Undergo Brain Surgery After Lucy Lawless, Others Help Raise Money; Top Stuntwoman Sustained Concussion On ‘LOTR’ Set Earlier This Year


Dayna Grant, a New Zealand-born award-winning veteran stunt double, performer and stunt coordinator who has worked on such productions as Mad Max: Fury Road, Wonder Woman 1984, the syndicated Xena:…




www.google.com


----------



## Varking (Jun 30, 2021)

It was updated on the original site: ComicBook.com that the surgery she was getting was not the result of any injury suffered via Lord of the Rings on Prime.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jun 30, 2021)

I noticed some confusion on that point.


----------



## Varking (Jun 30, 2021)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I noticed some confusion on that point.


There was definitely some major LotR community sites and members causing a stir online over the events up until ComicBook reached out. She took a hit on set. Nothing major. She was showing symptoms of something being “off” so they sent her to get checked out. After getting checked out it was determined that she needed emergency surgery for something other than what she went in to get checked out for. It’s terrific the gofundme type site worked and she has her surgery scheduled already though.


----------



## Varking (Jan 8, 2022)

I have posted updates to the first page to make it cleaner and updated it with the official first video, first image, and social media buttons.


----------



## Ealdwyn (Jan 19, 2022)

Just came across this





It's just going to be about the other rings of power? 😶
Then why are they casting Hobbits?
Why did they release a pic of the two trees?


----------



## Varking (Jan 19, 2022)

Don't forget the official press release to us from Amazon:





THE LORD OF THE RINGS: THE RINGS OF POWER – Official Press Release – Fellowship of Fans







fellowshipoffans.com


----------



## CirdanLinweilin (Jan 19, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> Just came across this
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Because money.



CL


----------



## Ealdwyn (Jan 19, 2022)

Well of course. But I still don't understand why there are hobbits in a series about the other rings of power.
Nice looking vid tho.


----------



## CirdanLinweilin (Jan 19, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> Well of course. But I still don't understand why there are hobbits in a series about the other rings of power.
> Nice looking vid tho.


I guess Amazon wants to bank/ride on the coattails of the Jackson films, so Hobbits it is.


CL


----------



## Varking (Jan 20, 2022)

CirdanLinweilin said:


> I guess Amazon wants to bank/ride on the coattails of the Jackson films, so Hobbits it is.
> 
> 
> CL


Casuals love the Hobbits ( Harfoots in this ) so if they have them in some small plots that don't have them become major players in this show it shouldn't be too rough.


----------



## CirdanLinweilin (Jan 20, 2022)

Varking said:


> Casuals love the Hobbits ( Harfoots in this ) so if they have them in some small plots that don't have them become major players in this show it shouldn't be too rough.


Yeah, because what did the Hobbits really do in the Second Age of note, other than send some archers and move to different places?


CL


----------



## CirdanLinweilin (Jan 20, 2022)

Halasían said:


> Hoping they don't feature too heavily in this


After how much of a hubabaloo they made about the actors they are choosing for said Hobbits I imagine they will be front and center....



Just my .2


CL


----------



## CirdanLinweilin (Jan 20, 2022)

Halasían said:


> Did _"they"_ though? I thought most of the hullabaloo was from people _speculating_ about the actors they chose.


Oh, I remember an actor saying "will be black hobbits, asian hobbits..." that sort of thing. And the big deal they seem to be making out of that is seeming to solidify their importance in the story.


CL

https://screenrant.com/lord-rings-show-diverse-hobbits-not-white/


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jan 20, 2022)

As it appears to be called "The Rings of Power", I wonder where hobbits will fit in.


----------



## Olorgando (Jan 21, 2022)

CirdanLinweilin said:


> Yeah, because what did the Hobbits really do in the Second Age of note, other than send some archers and move to different places?
> 
> 
> CL


Actually, the first mention of "Periannath" is in the year 1050 *Third* Age as per Appendix B "The Tale of Years".
If they adhered to the general migratory tendencies of Middle-earth, they must have been east of the Anduin River in the Second Age, perhaps even east of (or in?) Greenwood.


----------



## Olorgando (Jan 21, 2022)

Varking said:


> Casuals love the Hobbits ( Harfoots in this ) ...


Exactly; similar reason as that for "Leggy" being a "must have" in TH.
And if the Prime pimps have been paying attention to book sales, they are bound to have noticed the huge gap between LoTR and TH on the one hand, and The Sil on the other. Major difference? No Hobbits in the latter ... 🤨


----------



## Ealdwyn (Jan 21, 2022)

This is dated last November and I'm having trouble finding the original article. Does anyone have it bookmarked?


----------



## CirdanLinweilin (Jan 21, 2022)

https://boundingintocomics.com/2022...e-from-tolkiens-beloved-and-established-lore/


I haven’t found that one but here’s this:
CL


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## Ealdwyn (Jan 21, 2022)

CirdanLinweilin said:


> https://boundingintocomics.com/2022...e-from-tolkiens-beloved-and-established-lore/
> 
> 
> i haven’t found that one but here’s this:
> CL


Thanks! 
That was as depressing as I thought it would be.

The more I read about the Amazon series, the more I think it will bear no resembleance whatsover to Tolkiens's work, save for a few stolen names.


----------



## CirdanLinweilin (Jan 21, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> Thanks!
> That was as depressing as I thought it would be.
> 
> The more I read about the Amazon series, the more I think it will bear no resembleance whatsover to Tolkiens's work, save for a few stolen names.


Welcome and sorry to bear this bad news.

CL


----------



## Olorgando (Jan 21, 2022)

Halasían said:


> Ealdwyn said:
> 
> 
> > The more I read about the Amazon series, the more I think it will bear no resembleance whatsover to Tolkiens's work, save for a few stolen names.
> ...


At least all of the characters in the LoTR films were from the book - no Alfrids or Tauriels.
With AP dealing with the Second Age, the invented names will be very much in the majority. Same characters ("young" Galadriel! 🤢 ) are basically limited to Elves, or the Appendices.


----------



## Olorgando (Jan 21, 2022)

Halasían said:


> So, am I hearing you say you prefer that _only_ characters actually mentioned in the various writings of the 2nd age be the _only _characters in the series?


You now hear me saying that you might want to visit your ear, nose, and throat specialist - though since you *read* my post, perhaps it's the optometrist you want? 🤔


----------



## CirdanLinweilin (Jan 21, 2022)

Halasían said:


> So the fact Pharazôn doesn't immediately 'force' Miriel to marry him and he takes the scepter has you all upset? I guess they are being 'politically correct' in not showing blatant abuse of women? ❔


Firstly, I am just the messenger sharing what I found, for those interested, secondly I don't appreciate this putting of intent in my mouth, which could be slander.

Thirdly, you know how I feel about this series so it goes without mentioning.


CL


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## Olorgando (Jan 22, 2022)

Halasían said:


> I wasn't "putting intent in your mouth" as you say.


Then you need refresher course in your own (and my) language. Neither CL's being upset nor any "preferences" I may have (I have none; my attitude towards AP's stuff is stated perfectly in Rhett Butler's parting words to Scarlett O'Hara) can be read out of our respective posts, in both cases it's purely your own fantasy (runs in the family, doesn't it?).


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jan 23, 2022)




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## Olorgando (Jan 23, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> View attachment 11372


Makeup? I can't even borrow some from my wife, 'cause *she* doesn't use any either ... 🍋


----------



## CirdanLinweilin (Jan 31, 2022)

https://boundingintocomics.com/2022...ons-the-lord-of-the-rings-the-rings-of-power/


CL


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## CirdanLinweilin (Jan 31, 2022)

CirdanLinweilin said:


> https://boundingintocomics.com/2022...ons-the-lord-of-the-rings-the-rings-of-power/
> 
> 
> CL


Thoughts, anyone?


CL


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jan 31, 2022)

I gave mine. 😅


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 3, 2022)

They just released a bunch of posters:








LOTR: The Rings of Power Posters Reveal Sauron & 23 Characters


The Rings of Power characters posters are here.




screenrant.com





Here's one:


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 3, 2022)

Halasían said:


> comic-book guy


----------



## Varking (Feb 3, 2022)

I wrote about all of them here: https://fellowshipoffans.com/2022/0...d-23-character-posters-with-descriptive-text/

My favorite was the Dwarf 

But the one Amazon gave me to release early was this: 


Which most people are suggesting it’s Galadriel.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 3, 2022)




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## CirdanLinweilin (Feb 3, 2022)

I just don't think I should be forced to pretend or like something just because it has Tolkien slapped on it.


CL


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## Varking (Feb 3, 2022)

CirdanLinweilin said:


> I just don't think I should be forced to pretend or like something just because it has Tolkien slapped on it.
> 
> 
> CL


Apologies was this in reply to something I said?


----------



## CirdanLinweilin (Feb 3, 2022)

Varking said:


> Apologies was this in reply to something I said?


No good sir, not to you, to Halasian.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 3, 2022)

And Comic Book Guy? 😄


----------



## Erestor Arcamen (Feb 5, 2022)

Another link, sorry if I missed it already posted 😁





EXCLUSIVE: All 23 LOTR The Rings of Power Posters now with Hi-Res Extended Versions


Bigger photos of character torsos give us a better look at the craftmanship of the Amazon TV series. We have dug deep into the mines of Moria to find bigger versions of the Instagram posters revealed by Amazon. These are 5% taller, providing a bit more detail to obsess over before the show debut on




www.theonering.net


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 5, 2022)

Well, "every little helps"!😁


----------



## Erestor Arcamen (Feb 5, 2022)

Bit?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 5, 2022)

I was quoting Strider. 😁


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 5, 2022)

Another one:


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.polygon.com/platform/amp/22915948/lord-of-the-rings-of-power-characters-posters



-- Which I'm posting more for the comments than anything else. 😄

After looking at the posters again, this sprang to mind:

Then: "There's no crying in baseball!"

Now: "There's no soap in Middle-earth!"


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## Olorgando (Feb 5, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Well, "every little helps"!😁





Erestor Arcamen said:


> Bit?





Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I was quoting Strider. 😁


Hmmm - the (nick-) name is "Strider", not "Rider" ... 🤔


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 5, 2022)

Some of the "jokes" here need reining in. 😄


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## Olorgando (Feb 5, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Now: "There's no soap in Middle-earth!"


And there wasn't any in vast swaths of the region that JRRT based his Eriador etc. on, for centuries upon centuries ... 🤢


----------



## Olorgando (Feb 5, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Some of the "jokes" here need reining in. 😄


In equestrian terminology, the "bit" is something that goes in a horse's mouth (attached to the reins?); in current terminology centered on "bit", the operative term for what's in the mouth is usually "foot".


----------



## Erestor Arcamen (Feb 7, 2022)




----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 9, 2022)

Some more guesses:








'The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power' Posters' 8 Most Significant Easter Eggs


All those years of practicing Quenya is finally paying off.




collider.com


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 10, 2022)

More news and pics!









Amazon’s ‘Lord of the Rings’ Series Rises: Inside ‘The Rings of Power’


One show to rule them all—the first look at a billion-dollar saga set thousands of years before J.R.R. Tolkien’s legendary trilogy.




www.google.com


----------



## ZehnWaters (Feb 10, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> More news and pics!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I looks...uhm...pretty?


----------



## Ealdwyn (Feb 10, 2022)

> The driving question behind the production, he adds, was this: “*Can we come up with the novel Tolkien never wrote* and do it as the mega-event series that could only happen now?”


Er.... no? 
Just a hunch

I just read that article in full and the whole thing is really depressing. Really not looking forward to this.


----------



## Olorgando (Feb 10, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> More news and pics!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This industry has been in a Grand-Canyon-sized rut in the over 40 years since "Dallas" & "Dynasty" first polluted the TV screens.
Perhaps I'd better make that rut the size of the Valles Marineris on Mars ... 🤬🤬🤬


----------



## Aredheldaedraugh (Feb 11, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> More news and pics!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I m sorry but I m shocked by the photos I ve seen. In my opinion only the dwarfs are well made but the elfs? goodness. I ve seen more beautiful and more believable elfs on the Tolkien Days in Geldern. I m really disappointed. There is nothing special, magical or elegant on the elfs I saw. If zhey wouldn’t have pointed ears, I wouldn’t even think of them for one moment as elfs.


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## Ealdwyn (Feb 11, 2022)

Halasían said:


> I actually like this. Looking pretty good really.


Well it might *look* good, but that's where it ends.

Elrond as a "politically ambitious young elven leader"? Seriously??? Elrond???
The same Elrond who refused the crown of the Noldor after the death of Gil-Galad, despite being heir to all 3 houses of Finwe? Who was Gil-Galad's second while his brother Elros and his line were kings? Elrond who founded a Homely House at Rivendell, and chose the path of a healer? "As kind as summer" ???
_That_ Elrond??? Politically ambitious???


----------



## Aredheldaedraugh (Feb 11, 2022)

I agree totally. This is not Elrond.
I can watch it as an original fantasy series but when you start to change the rules of the world it's not really the same thing anymore. Change enough things and you're in danger of only using a "trademark" to get more viewers but in fact it could be any original show.


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## Ealdwyn (Feb 11, 2022)

Aredheldaedraugh said:


> I agree totally. This is not Elrond.
> I can watch it as an original fantasy series but when you start to change the rules of the world it's not really the same thing anymore. Change enough things and you're in danger of only using a "trademark" to get more viewers but in fact it could be any original show.


Exactly. It's just a random fantasy series that they've attached Tolkien's name to in order to cash in on the success of the LotR movies.

Galadriel a "hardscrabble warrior"? Isildur a common sailor???


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 11, 2022)

On another front:

🎶 What do you do,
When you don't have a clue?🎵

Why, write an article, don't you!









Lord Of The Rings: The Rings Of Power Will Feature Hobbit Ancestors Called 'Harfoots' - /Film


We might not be getting hobbits in The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power, but we'll be getting something like them.




www.slashfilm.com


----------



## TrollinSun (Feb 11, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> More news and pics!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I read that article, and until this I kept an open mind, but there are a few lines in here from the directors that have me dreading this show now


----------



## Ealdwyn (Feb 11, 2022)

I feel like I'll need therapy when this show is aired


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 11, 2022)




----------



## TrollinSun (Feb 11, 2022)

if Jeff Bezos was as much of a middle earth fanatic as he claims he wouldn't wanna entirely manipulate tolkien's canon


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## ZehnWaters (Feb 11, 2022)

TrollinSun said:


> if Jeff Bezos was as much of a middle earth fanatic as he claims he wouldn't wanna entirely manipulate tolkien's canon


I get time compression (though I still don't think it would be necessary). Some of the other changes? Not so much.


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## Aredheldaedraugh (Feb 11, 2022)

I agree totally. This is not Elrond.
I can watch it as an original fantasy series but when you start to change the rules of the world it's not really the same thing anymore. Change enough things and you're in danger of only using a "trademark" to get more viewers but in fact it could be any original show.


AaronSecret said:


> Welcome to Black-Men 21 century heaven of non-existing characters. >.>
> 
> I'm sorry but such a massive visual project will create an entirely different vision of the Sil, as many people haven't actually really read it or don't even suspect it exists.
> And now the common perception of our beloved book will be a made-up story ripping off a masterpiece with an entirely different concept... and even, like, characters?! I am fuming. I'm sorry for the rude word but thanks Tolkien Estate for selling out to this complete . I hope you enjoy those filthy money you have and probably even... I'll stop here before I get quite rude. Maybe it's just a first impression but it's just.. not ok.
> ...





TrollinSun said:


> I read that article, and until this I kept an open mind, but there are a few lines in here from the directors that have me dreading this show now


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## CirdanLinweilin (Feb 11, 2022)

CL


----------



## CirdanLinweilin (Feb 11, 2022)

And, might I add,

the DWARF WOMAN HATH NO FACIAL HAIR!




Okay, off my box.



CL


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## Shadow (Feb 12, 2022)

I wish this show wasn’t happening. 🥴


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## Shadow (Feb 12, 2022)

Goku da Silva said:


> A black elf?!🤨😞


As a fan of the first three movies I‘m glad Jackson made them when he did. We’re going to see a modern interpretation will fare.


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## Ealdwyn (Feb 13, 2022)

Halasían said:


> It's really enlightening to see who get's all bothered by the race of the actors.


Yes it's very telling. 
Out of all the things that are wrong with the series, it's the _colour of the actors' skin_ that bothers them?


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## Olorgando (Feb 13, 2022)

It's all kind of half-hearted, isn't it? I'm not familiar with the East Asian mythologies; hardly familiar with Subcontinental ones; I've read a bit about Gilgamesh of Mesopotamia; Egypt must have something to offer, bits and scraps from Sub-Saharan Africa must be available, same for the Americas (they haven't caught western attention much, there is likely quite a bit more to be mined with serious research). Now *that* would be a fantasy with global appeal - or at least "something for everybody", a mantra in Hollywood & Co. for a long time now (less so in Bollywood and other hypothetical -woods; they tend to be awfully parochial).


----------



## Erestor Arcamen (Feb 15, 2022)




----------



## HALETH✒🗡 (Feb 15, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> View attachment 11705


Wow! These are good news, finally! I'm really keen on such philological details. I would like to translate this kind of dialogues into Russian but nobody would ask me.


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## AaronSecret (Feb 15, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> View attachment 11705


Sounds good!


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## Ealdwyn (Feb 15, 2022)

I'm not so sure. 
It sounds as if they're saying: "look how clever we are, Tolkien would have liked it", as if having the characters speak in iambic pentameter gives the writers licence to ride roughshod over the Legendarium.


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## AaronSecret (Feb 15, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> I'm not so sure.
> It sounds as if they're saying: "look how clever we are, Tolkien would have liked it", as if having the characters speak in iambic pentameter gives the writers licence to ride roughshod over the Legendarium.


Actually, yeah, you are right.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 15, 2022)

They may have gotten the idea from Tom Shippey, who studied Tolkien's use of decorum.


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## Olorgando (Feb 15, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> View attachment 11705


Uh-huh. Seems they missed out on the fact that JRRT, while starting his studies in Oxford in "Classics" in 1911, up to taking Honour Moderations in early 1913, then switched to the English School. Alliteration would be more fitting than this classics stuff. This is not the world of Homer, Virgil or any other of the Graeco-Roman rabble. 😒


----------



## Rōmānus (Feb 20, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> Yes it's very telling.
> Out of all the things that are wrong with the series, it's the _colour of the actors' skin_ that bothers them?


I even have a problem with Elrond not being raven-haired, “His hair was dark as the shadows of twilight” (Many Meetings). I prefer adaptations to be as faithful to the source as possible.


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## Ealdwyn (Feb 20, 2022)

More commentary from the press.
It's commenting on the diversity angle. But as I've said before, Amaz*n aren't interested in equality for PoC, the "woke-ness"is is merely a PR exercise.









‘The history of fantasy is racialized’: Lord of the Rings series sparks debate over race


Introduction of characters of color into Tolkien’s fantasy world has some fans complaining but as others point out, it’s not less authentic to cast Black actors




www.theguardian.com






I like this:_ "people for whom The Lord of the Rings is the second-best thing to the Bible"_
I'm an atheist, so what does that make it for me? 🤔 🤣


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 20, 2022)

One of the things in the article that struck a odd note for me was the idea that _all _the heroic characters in LOTR were "middle class".


----------



## Olorgando (Feb 20, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> One of the things in the article that struck a odd note for me was the idea that _all _the heroic characters in LOTR were "middle class".


These people need to read some Tom Shippey, specifically "The Road to Middle-earth" where he illuminates LoTR through the categories of Northrop Frye.


----------



## Ealdwyn (Feb 21, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> One of the things in the article that struck a odd note for me was the idea that _all _the heroic characters in LOTR were "middle class".


To be fair, they have a point about class: the story is dominated by individuals from various noble houses of ME, and distinctly middle-class gentlehobbits. Sam is the only working-class main character.


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## Olorgando (Feb 21, 2022)

The setting of things based on JRRT's writings is Middle-earth, an imaginary far past of our world.

Folks, this ain't "Seinfeld" or whatever ... 

Edit:
And it's also not Dallas & Dynasty or the rest of that plague. 🤢


----------



## Ealdwyn (Feb 21, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> The setting of things based on JRRT's writings is Middle-earth, an imaginary far past of our world.
> 
> Folks, this ain't "Seinfeld" or whatever ...
> 
> ...


Well the Shire is certainly intended to be a parallel of early 20th century England. Frodo, Bilbo, Merry & Pippin are clearly "gentlemen", i.e. they don't work for a living and have independant incomes, and this would (at that time) define them as middle class. Sam is the only one who actually works, hence "working class".
The rest of the main characters are all members of ruling/noble families. The wizards aren't, but I guess Maiar are higher in the hierarchy anyway.

So it could be said by some that LotR is a story about those who already have priviledge. 
I should add that I'm not trying to start a debate about class in ME, and I'm not even sure I agree with the priviledge angle, it's just that I suspect that's the point the writer of the article was trying to make.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Feb 21, 2022)

It was a minor point, anyway -- my own search history causes Google to bring me a constant stream of Amazing New Revelations such as this:









15 Things You May Not Know About J.R.R. Tolkien | Book Riot


What did Tolkien think of Shakespeare? What was his first job? What is T.C.B.S.? Find out in this collection of facts about J.R.R. Tolkien!




www.google.com


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Mar 2, 2022)

More grist for the rumor mill:








New Lord Of The Rings: The Rings Of Power Leaks Detail Galadriel's Rage And Plot Information About Halbrand


A brand new set of alleged leaks from The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power show off a new scene and detail Galadriel's rage.




boundingintocomics.com


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Mar 3, 2022)

Halasían said:


> From the Comic Book Guy.


----------



## TrollinSun (Mar 8, 2022)

TrollinSun said:


> For me personally, the exposed manipulation from Amazon is what really grinds my gears. If the directors and writers were changing minor things because an actor/actress is a better fit or difficulty of creating scenes from ME. I could write them off. But changing things to appeal to the masses and outright stating they're going to make the original "modern" epic fantasy show "another GOT" are things that grind my gears.




Just my 2 cents


----------



## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 10, 2022)

Halasían said:


> I'm not really 'defending the series', just giving it a chance. I'm just waiting for the finished product before making sweeping blatant judgements and writing it completely off like so many. The casting doesn't bother me any, nor does the company that is producing the project, so putting those two thing aside, I see the producers are following along the lines of the mold set by Peter Jackson's 'adaptation' (aka wholesale changes to Tolkien's writing). The little bit I've seen of the series (a few stills, promo posters, and one short teaser) aren't 'dealbreakers' in my eyes and so I remain on the low end of 'cautiously optimistic' on the tilt-o-meter. If THAT is 'defending the series' then so-be-it.


This serie will be a big failure, i guess, they will end it after season two, because not enough people want to watch it. There is nothing in this serie from Tolkiens middle earth, there is only the Name "Lord of the Rings"; but the serie has nothing to do with Tolkiens characteres and storys, and i am really angry, that they show Galadriel, which is my favourite charactere in the books, as a Marvel-Superhero-Warrior-Woman. That has nothing to do with the etheral Galdriel, that Peter Jackson and Tolkien has created. This serie is woke-propaganda, nothing else.
My heart bleeds, when i see how they use Tolkiens Name for something like that. They show not Middle earth there, so this serie is nothing for Lord of the rings fans, which want to feel the magic of Middle earth again.
The casting bothers me totally, because black elves and dwarfes dont exist in Middle earth, and the producers didnt take the chance, to give the black actors roles as Haradrim, for example Haradrim, which go in resistance against Sauron. 
And what me also bothers totally is Galadriel in armor with a sword...that dont fit to the wise, peaceful and kind elvenqueen.


----------



## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 10, 2022)

Halasían said:


> I guess we'll see.... at least those of us who watch it will.


You will see, this serie will get a total desaster.....in 100 Years no one will remember it, but all people will still love and know Peter Jacksons movies then.
This serie shows not Middle Earth, it shows another Diversity-woke-world.....very boring😴
I dont want to see a black elv falling in love with a human single mom...that is not Middle Earth
And i dont want to see a black dwarf princess, that is also not Middle Earth.
And i dont want to see a aggressiv warrior-Galadriel, in armor with a sword, that is also not Middle Earth.
And i am totally sure, that 80% of all fans will not watch it, because they see, that it is not Middle Earth, what Amazon create there.
Fans want to see Middle-Earth, not Diversity-Earth.


----------



## Annatar (Mar 10, 2022)

LadyGaladriel1980 said:


> a black elv


Well, actually the actor doesn't play an elf, but apparently he plays a cosplayer with pointy ears, like all the other characters in this series. 😹








Excellent video that exposes many of the shill sites attacks on fans as perfidious and brazen nonsense.

Interesting note from this Youtuber:


> The original recording for this whole article was FAR larger than this, and I may have gone a bit over the top on the cutting of the various paragraphs and responses in my attempt to keep a certain pace to the video. The point of this video is to look at framing techniques, and how just changing 1 single phrase in an article to something that means the same thing, but has different wording can entirely change the meaning of an article. I expect we will see MUCH more of these different framing techniques as we progress closer to release


----------



## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 10, 2022)

Annatar said:


> Well, actually the actor doesn't play an elf, but apparently he plays a cosplayer with pointy ears, like all the other characters in this series. 😹
> 
> This British Tolkien fan is pretty pissed - and quite rightly so:
> 
> ...


The whole trailer of the serie looks like Cosplay, i really cant understand, what they have done with the billions of dollars, this serie has cost. 🥶 
I am happy, that so much people dislike the serie, this serie will getting a big mistake for Amazon. 
What a pitty, that Peter Jackson was not involved...then it would be without woke-Propaganda und Cosplay-looking. 
This British Tolkien fan is really totally right


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Mar 10, 2022)

You mean this wasn't "woke"?

If not, why not?


----------



## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 10, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> You mean this wasn't "woke"?
> View attachment 12136
> If not, why not?


This was not woke, because this actors dont play elves or dwarfes, and this was only small roles, and not, like in todays woke-series the biggest roles of usually white characteres.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Mar 10, 2022)

So, we're saying that "wokeness" is, at least in part, dependent on the size of the role?


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Mar 10, 2022)

Nevertheless, there are no designated non-caucasian races inhabiting Laketown in the book; PJ inserted them. I'm just wondering why his inventions are acceptable, even praised, while those of others are seemingly anathema.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Mar 10, 2022)

I'd just point out a distinction: Martin Luther King was an actual person; African slaves were real people. Dwarves and Elves are not.

But as a matter of fact, the most popular Broadway musical of the last few years features a black actor portraying a white historical figure, so apparently a lot of people are less disturbed than you seem to believe. Whether that will translate to a fictional fantasy world remains to be seen.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Mar 10, 2022)

Maybe she was a chameleon? 😄


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Mar 11, 2022)

The "Gollum notice" was added by mazzly; everyone sees it.


----------



## Erestor Arcamen (Mar 11, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Maybe she was a chameleon? 😄


Galadrachameleon?


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## Erestor Arcamen (Mar 11, 2022)

Halasían said:


> I guessed as much. This "discussion" wasn't going anywhere anyway.


Right, arguing over whether FICTIONAL races are black-skinned or otherwise is a useless discussion. The point of the Amazon forums are to discuss the series aka the plot, story, our opinions of the series without whining about "political agendas." Amazon isn't "spitting" on Tolkien's works. The books are all the same and will be after this series comes out. I'm not saying I'll love or hate the series, I don't know until I actually watch it. And as I've stated many times, people can criticize it all they want, that's fine, it's when we get into these political and racial complaints that it's getting old and the discussion is getting stale.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Mar 12, 2022)

Halasían said:


> I'm on a few sites, and some have managed to get past (in various ways) the whole character-race complaint and the Amazon complaint, and some really good discussions among Tolkien book fans of the scenes, settings, character actions, and screenplay has ensued. It isn't all 'praise and worship' of the series, and there is a lot that could appear/be different as far as what we know from the promo posters and the one teaser. Still, good civil discussion going on. I hope it may be here eventually too.


Yeah, this is what I envision this section to be. When people stop complaining about the race of actors and discuss the actual content. If they don't like the show fine, entitled to their opinion. Same with someone who likes it, their right to opinion. The political BS is getting stale.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Mar 16, 2022)

I wouldn't be so sure. The Eddas, from which Tolkien drew, speak of _Svartalfr -- _"black elves". And the same term is used for dwarves.


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## HALETH✒🗡 (Mar 16, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I wouldn't be so sure. The Eddas, from which Tolkien drew, speak of _Svartalfr -- _"black elves". And the same term is used for dwarves.


Svartalfr's bodies are shadows. They don't have black skin, they don't have skin at all.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Mar 16, 2022)

So not "white" either.

I'm no expert, but what few references I checked don't seem to indicate "shadows". I'd be interested in the sources for this idea.


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## HALETH✒🗡 (Mar 16, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> So not "white" either.


There are no Svartalfrs in Tolkien's books.
If there were such creatures, it would be better to show them as PJ showed Nazguls.



Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I'm no expert, but what few references I checked don't seem to indicate "shadows". I'd be interested in the sources for this idea.


I'm not an expert either. I just know that Tolkien didn't write about black elves. Speaking about the source, here it is...


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Mar 16, 2022)

This is an anime fandom wiki? I'm not sure I'd place too much trust in it. But here's another wiki source:






Svartálfar - Wikipedia







en.m.wikipedia.org













Dökkálfar and Ljósálfar - Wikipedia







en.m.wikipedia.org


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## HALETH✒🗡 (Mar 16, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> This is an anime fandom wiki? I'm not sure I'd place too much trust in it. But here's another wiki source:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the link! I'll take my time and look for some more information because the topic is really interesting.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Mar 16, 2022)

I found this article interesting:



Project MUSE - Light-elves, Dark-elves, and Others: Tolkien's Elvish Problem


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Mar 16, 2022)

They are described as being "blacker than pitch".


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## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 16, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> They are described as being "blacker than pitch".


No, black elves didnt exist in the Edda, you have understand something wrong. When the Edda was written, Europa was a totally white continent, there was no black people, so the Edda is a book with only white people. Black Elves dont exist, this woke-propaganda in the serie is totally disgusting, and a affront of Tolkiens work.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Mar 16, 2022)

One of us -- or both-- could well be wrong, but see the links I posted earlier.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Mar 16, 2022)

Well, the quote is from the Eddas, but I'll leave it at that.

As far as the movies go, I have sympathy with those who saw them before reading the book, especially at a youthful age. Had I been in that position, and seen them in my teens or early twenties, I probably would have thought them great. But as someone who'd been reading LOTR for over three decades before the movies came out, I had a different reaction -- in fact, I find them difficult to watch without irritation. And I'm far from being alone in this, as you can see by a delve in the archives here. One place to start:









My God, It Was Horrible!


All you doomsayers were right. It was absolutely horrible. I was crying in the theater. I wanted to walk out, but I didn't b/c my friends were there! All the party is screwed up, out of order, shortened. The trip to Bree was in 45 minutes or so...not 1.30 like it should've been. IT...




www.thetolkienforum.com


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## Annatar (Mar 17, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I wouldn't be so sure. The Eddas, from which Tolkien drew, speak of _Svartalfr -- _"black elves".


I have only roughly skimmed the rest of this very tedious discussion, but it's obvious that the Middle-earth counterparts of these (often portraied as) evil, dark Svartalfr - if you absolutely want to look for them - are the Orcs. These are described by Tolkien as dark-skinned and are vicious perversions of the (light) elves. (Although he later mused that perhaps they are more likely descended from humans.)

But in other fantasy worlds like the Forgotten Realms there would be an even better counterpart, namely the Dark Elves / Drow (Drizzt Do'urden etc.)







But they do not exist in Middle-earth.

Apart from that, Tolkien of course also has the "Elves of the Darkness" / Moriquendi, who are also often referred to as "Dark Elves". Everybody who is familiar with Tolkien knows that this has nothing to do with the color of their skin, but with the fact that these Elves have never seen the light of the Trees of Valinor (especially when there were only stars as light sources in Middle-earth).

As far as lore goes, I would find it halfway acceptable if Amazon plausibly deduced in the series that this Arondir is descended from an Avari tribe that migrated from Cuivienen to Harad very early in prehistory. However, there is no evidence of that in the books. One could imagine it, though, under certain circumstances.
But in the series it's clearly stated that he's a "Silvan Elf", and this makes no sense other than being motivated by modern, political, left-wing reasons like "incluisivity" and "representation".
Then add to that the fact that this black elf has an illicit relationship with a single white mother. And there's also a scene shown where the black elf is chained somewhere with one leg. Could it be any more obvious? (By the way, I would bet that the Numenroic queen will also be cast with a black actress.)
I think politics should be kept out of book adaptations, whether you are pro or con. But here we get a perfidious combination of leftist identity politics and cultural appropriation.
And leaving aside the skin color of the Amazon Elves, even if Arondir was white, he would still look like a modern cosplayer. To a similar extent, our two teenagers Elrond and Galadriel don't look like Middle-earth elves, but like modern humans with attached pointed ears in a more or less good medieval festival / LARP costume. Amazon-Galadriel is also not really Galadriel of Lorien, but rather Galadriel of Orlean aka Joan of Arc (who died with only 19 years).





vs.




Apart from the moronic explosion in the background, as you know it from 90s action movies: These are such striking similarities that I almost really believe they have confused Lorien with Orlean, as it's almost the same letters.
I'd say even Lego Galadriel looks more true to the book. 






All in all, these are several factors that destroy immersion. I absolutely don't understand how other people who claim to be Tolkien fans can overlook this. But okay, that's up to you. I just think it's unfair when everyone who sees this critically is immediately called an "istophobe" by the media and in general.


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## LadyGaladriel1980 (Mar 18, 2022)

Annatar said:


> I have only roughly skimmed the rest of this very tedious discussion, but it's obvious that the Middle-earth counterparts of these (often portraied as) evil, dark Svartalfr - if you absolutely want to look for them - are the Orcs. These are described by Tolkien as dark-skinned and are vicious perversions of the (light) elves. (Although he later mused that perhaps they are more likely descended from humans.)
> 
> But in other fantasy worlds like the Forgotten Realms there would be an even better counterpart, namely the Dark Elves / Drow (Drizzt Do'urden etc.)
> 
> ...


But the Moriquendi elves had no black skin, they had a black soul, that means "Dark elves", in this case i totally agree with you. Eol is an example for a darc Elv, and he had, of course, white skin.
In Tolkiens Middle earth elves with black Skin dont exist, and also a aggressive warrior-Galadriel dont exist.
Tolkiens fans dont want to see a Galadriel, which look like a cheap Version of Jeanne Darc, Tolkiens fans want to see a wice, peaceful Galadriel in a white dress.
You are totally right, the Lego-Galadriel looks very much more than the Tolkien-Galadriel and the Movie-Galadriel, than this horrible Amazon-Woke-Propaganda-Thing, they call Galadriel.
What a shame, that Amazon ruins Tolkiens work in such a horrible way.
And you are totally right....Arondir would even look like a Cosplayer, when he was white....totally cheap look, it dont look like a Middle Earth Elv with that horrible short hair. Elves must have long hair, they also had in old legends always long hair:


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Mar 29, 2022)

After pruning some of the more repetitive posts, this thread is once again open for replies.


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## HALETH✒🗡 (Apr 7, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I wouldn't be so sure. The Eddas, from which Tolkien drew, speak of _Svartalfr -- _"black elves". And the same term is used for dwarves.





HALETH✒🗡 said:


> Thanks for the link! I'll take my time and look for some more information because the topic is really interesting.


May I draw my conclusions about Svartalfrs? I was wrong when I claimed that their bodies were shadows. However, I still believe that Svartalfrs in the Poetic Edda have white skin as in Old Norse the descriptive term 'black' ("svartr") refers to hair color, not skin color. According to "Academic Dictionaries and Encyclopedias", it is analogous to the English term 'brunette', which always refers to brown hair and never brown skin. Speaking about dwarves, Norse texts describe the skin color of Dvergar as 'pale' ("fölr") like a corpse, while their hair color is 'black' ("svartr").


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## Tar-Elenion (Apr 9, 2022)

From Letter 156:
"Even the dwarfs are not really Germanic 'dwarfs' (Zwerge, dweorgas, dvergar), and I call them 'dwarves' to mark that. They are not naturally evil, not necessarily hostile, and not a kind of maggot-folk bred in stone; but a variety of incarnate rational creature."


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## Annatar (Apr 11, 2022)

Nice to see my posts are back from nirvana.



Halasían said:


> Things have really quieted down across the inter webs about this TV show.
> Amazon will probably release another trailer soon to stir up the waddies again.


Here's a little foretaste: Kemen and Carine 🥰 🥰

Seems to be another fan fiction love story between a son of Pharazon and a daughter of Elendil.






What surprises me the most is the strange naming. As said in the video, the King's Men dropped their Elven names, while the Faithful continued to hold on to the Elven names. With these two, it seems to be the other way around.

How is the name Carine to be pronounced at all? Maybe one of the language experts here can actually deduce how that might be compatible with Arda and Tolkien's language rules...

Edit: A quick internet search reveals that Carine is a real life name. It's French, meaning "pretty, lovely".
And it really seems to be the equivalent of Karen. 😹
Why couldn't they find a Middle-earth/Numenor-type name? It shouldn't be that hard.


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## Annatar (Apr 11, 2022)

Halasían said:


> I thought you went to TORc with those other two censorship-crying ranters?


I'm a shinobi ninja! Everywhere and nowhere! 🏹👥🕶️👨‍⚖️


> Anyway, These YouTube videos crack me up. 😅 it’s kind of like rivet-counting in war movies.


YouTube videos are certainly primarily about attention and click numbers - just as TV series are about ratings and profit. Basically nothing against it. It gets funny when it suddenly turns to political propaganda at the expense of profit. But okay, some just need a bit longer. So, until the next trailer, let's discuss - as I suggested - linguistic issues. Carine!


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## HALETH✒🗡 (Apr 12, 2022)

IMO, creating new characters for ecranisations is pointless. There isn't enough screen time and resources even for including all Tolkien's heroes. Why should time and effort be spent on new ones? PJ at least tried to create an elvish name – Tauriel.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 12, 2022)

An elvish name -- for a nonexistent character. Better to address your question to PJ himself, I'd say. 😄


I'll also say that you introduced me to a new word -- though I did know the French word for "screen", I wasn't aware of the critical term. So thanks -- I learn something every day here! 😊


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## HALETH✒🗡 (Apr 12, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> An elvish name -- for a nonexistent character. Better to address your question to PJ himself, I'd say. 😄
> 
> 
> I'll also say that you introduced me to a new word -- though I did know the French word for "screen", I wasn't aware of the critical term. So thanks -- I learn something every day here! 😊


What is the French word for "screen"?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 12, 2022)

"Ecran".


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## HALETH✒🗡 (Apr 12, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> "Ecran".


I see. In Russian the word for "screen" is quite similar.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 12, 2022)

Ahah, so I see, on looking it up. Though of course in French, the final "N" ("H") would be very nasal; English speakers-- and Russian speakers too, I imagine-- would consider it "silent".


OK, enough linguistics-- back to arguing about Amazon! 😆


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 21, 2022)

I'm guessing Theo is one of the "Harfoots"?

(Or would it be "Harfeet"? 🤔)


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## Ealdwyn (Apr 21, 2022)

Ah yes, Theo and Bronwyn, those well known characters from ...er ...... 🤔


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 21, 2022)

. . .the same realm as Tauriel? 😉


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## Annatar (Apr 21, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> . . .the same realm as Tauriel? 😉


Yes, it's all nonsense.
I'm not a fan of those Peter Jackson films, but I don't think we should set the absurdities of the various film adaptations against each other, because they have all been less than optimal so far. (And even if we did, PJ would do better in most cases, which is bad enough).

The naming of some RoP fanfic characters does bother me a bit:
- Carine:  How is that even supposed to be pronounced? It makes the least sense so far, especially since it's a Numenorean name of the Faithful (so it should be Quenya).
- The hobbit girl Elanor Brandyfoot: Elanor is elvish and the name of a flower that the hobbits don't know until the 3rd Age. So is the Brandywine river. So it's an anachronism that sounds Tolkien-affine, but actually makes no sense story-wise.
- Bronwyn from Tirharad: The name is rather Celtic, but at least it sounds a bit like a Rohirrim name. Tirharad is Sindarin and means something like guard of the south or southern guard post. So it sounds more like a country that is much more southern than Rohan, but who knows...
- And now Bronwyn's son Theo, who also has a more oriental complexion and therefore doesn't fit with the Rohirrim: Sounds very much like a real name, but also brings back memories of Rohan names like Theoden (which, however, come from Old English). It wouldn't fit to a rather southern setting. Rohan did not exist in the 2nd age and the ancestors of the Rohirrim lived in the north.

Since Tolkien placed extreme importance on languages and names, one has to wonder if Amazon really consulted good experts in this regard.

Here, someone who, unlike me, is still rather optimistic about the series so far, has made a video on the naming issues:


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## Annatar (Apr 21, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> OK, enough linguistics


Oh yeah, I'm really sorry it's back to linguistics now, but you better complain to Amazon. 😜

By the way, what else stands out: Another broken sword???

Unfortunately, this picture looks so much like "Wheel of Time", and that's not a good omen at all.


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## Annatar (Apr 21, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> Ah yes, Theo and Bronwyn, those well known characters from ...er ...... 🤔


I wouldn't really have a problem with fictional characters that you don't know from the books. A film adaptation of the Second Age would actually offer good opportunities for this. But if you're going to do that, then please do it properly. And so far it all looks more like generic fantasy. It could be part of the Shannara or WoT or Witcher adaptation or whatever, but it's not reminiscent of Middle Earth. You get the impression that they just bought the naming rights to attract more people, while the authors don't have a clue about Tolkien's works. It seems to me that they only saw PJ's movies and thought: "well, okay, but not diverse and feminist enough, we can modernize it and do it better! So let's put in a single mother who has a forbidden relationship with a black man... Now let's celebrate ourselves for being so progressive."


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 21, 2022)

Or: "Let's add characters that will bring more eyeballs!" (_read _-- "money").


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## CirdanLinweilin (Apr 22, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Or: "Let's add characters that will bring more eyeballs!" (_read _-- "money").


That's literally what happened in the pitch meeting for this. 

CL


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## CirdanLinweilin (Apr 22, 2022)

Annatar said:


> I wouldn't really have a problem with fictional characters that you don't know from the books. A film adaptation of the Second Age would actually offer good opportunities for this. But if you're going to do that, then please do it properly. And so far it all looks more like generic fantasy. It could be part of the Shannara or WoT or Witcher adaptation or whatever, but it's not reminiscent of Middle Earth. You get the impression that they just bought the naming rights to attract more people, while the authors don't have a clue about Tolkien's works. It seems to me that they only saw PJ's movies and thought: "well, okay, but not diverse and feminist enough, we can modernize it and do it better! So let's put in a single mother who has a forbidden relationship with a black man... Now let's celebrate ourselves for being so progressive."


Preach.

It's almost as if Tolkien knew what a prehistoric Europe would look like

CL


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## HALETH✒🗡 (Apr 24, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Or: "Let's add characters that will bring more eyeballs!" (_read _-- "money").


Read – "gold".


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 24, 2022)

Or duck.


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## Ealdwyn (Apr 24, 2022)

Annatar said:


> You get the impression that they just bought the naming rights to attract more people, while the authors don't have a clue about Tolkien's works.


Exactly


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## Annatar (Apr 24, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> Exactly


Unfortunately, internet forums like this one are relics of the dying "Web 1.0". I - as an old guy 😬 - think that's terrible, but that's the way it is. Therefore I inform myself about this topic also much about "Web 2.0" platforms, as for example YouTube.  

There, for example, I found this interesting information in a comment on a video about Theo's name:



> Having written Elbereth on Gil-gald's sleeves and Aran Einior on his breast in Cirth is imo quite a bit of effort and really cool to see. They also used Tengwar correctly on that one scroll (unlike Shadow of War lol).
> The Khuzdul in Cirth in the background of the Dísa picture was also quite interesting and some of it I could read.



So that means if they want to, they can definitely get it right! 👍

But also:



> It looks like they are different teams. The inscriptions seem to be made by people who are familiar with the subject. The questionable personal names, however, probably come from authors in responsible positions who apparently have no deeper idea about Tolkien. My conclusion: Certain teams do a good job, but others do not. So there is a lack of overall quality control here. That's what happens when you kick out people like Shippey. After the predominantly negative fan feedback so far, Amazon should actually draw consequences and fire the responsible managers of this project.


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## Olorgando (Apr 24, 2022)

Annatar said:


> Unfortunately, this picture looks so much like "Wheel of Time", and that's not a good omen at all.





Ealdwyn said:


> Annatar said:
> 
> 
> > You get the impression that they just bought the naming rights to attract more people, while the authors don't have a clue about Tolkien's works.
> ...


What other Fantasy adaptions are there? GRRM's "A Song of Ice and Fire", translated into HBO's "Game of Thrones"; Andrzej Sapkowski's "The Witcher" series of books, also translated into a TV series, apparently aired by Netflix. And probably a lot of stuff I've never heard of. PJ's six fanfics can also be viewed on the small screen by now ...

Let's be realistic. What's the audience Amazon is aiming for? The readers of the books by JRRT, GRRM, Sapkowski, or Robert Jordan and Brandon Sanderson (and never mind book nerds like us)? Dream on. PJ & Co. have created their own (visual) "canon", which is probably all millions in the film and TV audiences are familiar with. And fantasy fans do seem to like "more of the (more or less) same". Happened with books decades ago, with that "Shannara" series of books by Terry Brooks, originally a trilogy which then sprouted sequels and prequels.

Makes me think of "Star Wars", of whose prequels, sequels spin-offs and whatnot I've simply lost count. Such franchises do have possibilities ...
... and especially if the characters are invented and thus not covered by book copyrights ...

Hasn't anyone approached PJ yet with the idea of creating a Tauriel spin-off, kind of a latter-day Elven Xena? 😁


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 24, 2022)

Maybe it's an effort to achieve Slack.


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## Annatar (Apr 24, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> Hasn't anyone approached PJ yet with the idea of creating a Tauriel spin-off, kind of a latter-day Elven Xena?


"My girl Galadriel!!!!!!🤙🤙🤙"


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## Annatar (Apr 24, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> What other Fantasy adaptions are there?


There are a few more or less good ones. Not all of them are book adaptations, but from my point of view rather successful fantasy films. But they are just a bit older. What comes to my mind spontaneously:

- Nosferatu
- some Japanese animes like "Chihiro"
- Edward Scissorhands and other Tim Burton movies
- some children's animations like "How to Train Your Dragon" or "Shrek"
- Dance of the Vampires
- Bram Stoker's Dracula
- Stardust
- some Terry Pratchett adaptations
- some Star Wars movies or even Mandalorian episodes
- The Neverending Story (but the book is much better)
- The Last Unicorn (but the book is much better)
- "Tři oříšky pro Popelku" or "Ronja Rövardotter" and many other fairy tale adaptations that are probably not known outside Europe
- Asian wuxia films such as "A Chinese Ghost Story" or "Hero"
- various "Arthur and the Holy Grail" adaptations
- The Dark Crystal
- etc.

What do they have in common? For the most part, they are timeless and represent general, positive truths without becoming too political. Fantasy is escapism, but basic and timeless themes remain present; and these adaptations for the most part manage not to be allegories of current times, something Tolkien detested, by the way, as anyone who has read the preface to The Lord of the Rings knows.


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## Annatar (Apr 24, 2022)

At "Rings of Power," however, they say:



> The driving question behind the production, he adds, was this: “Can we come up with the novel Tolkien never wrote and do it as the mega-event series that could only happen now?”


How arrogant is that?
In addition: They have no rights to the Silmarillion and other deeper sources. Only to the few pages from the appendices of the Lord of the Rings.
So in fact, Tolkien actually DID wirte this novel! But Amazon doesn't have the rights.

Arrogance plus political agenda plus lack of rights -> Can only go wrong. Nevertheless, I'm always amused by the justifications of the notorious optimists who still talk themselves into believing it. Keep it up, I find it funny. 😹

By the way, I also find it interesting that the forum moderators seem to only give likes to series "shills" but not to series critics. With all the information that has been published in the meantime, I find that a bit suspicious! Unless you're completely screwed, you should have noticed that 85% of Tolkien fans don't want that crap. So are you really Tolkien fans? Do monetary issues play a bigger role than one would like to think? Not that I would expect a serious answer, but rather censorship... 😜
As I said, I think it's a shame when "Web 1.0" with its originally grandiose forum structure goes under, but if its moderators can't maintain rudimentary neutrality, you'll be dead after the first season at the latest.
People will remember that you sided with the wrong side and you will no longer be a platform for the majority of Tolkien fans but rather for the remaining 5-15% and those who know nothing about Tolkien but will like this blasphemous series. Do you really want that? Well, I don't care, but that was my last clue in that regard. Of course, as always, some jerks will make fun of it, but then you just can't be helped anymore. 💀

Yes, I keep attacking you moderators here. But I don't mean it badly, I just want a Tolkien forum to stay with Tolkien and not be sold to any zeitgeisty adaptations! And yes, I still have the expectation that you are absolute book connoisseurs and advocates and are highly critical of every film adaptation and do not accept any money from any producers, because otherwise you will not be credible.
You should be the first front line in defending the original, not the henchmen of some globalist corporation that just wants to make money and doesn't give Tolkien the respect he deserves.

PS: I appreciate that Squint-eyed Southerner liked that post.


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## Olorgando (Apr 25, 2022)

Annatar said:


> By the way, I also find it interesting that the forum moderators seem to only give likes to series "shills" but not to series critics.


Where in Arda have you found series "shills" in this forum?!?
Unless by "shills" you mean those who refuse to chime in to your monotonous "woke political propaganda" bleating. 🐑


Annatar said:


> You should be the first front line in defending the original, not the henchmen of some globalist corporation that just wants to make money and doesn't give Tolkien the respect he deserves.


That's a typical example of your thunderously arrogant postings here. We are more than capable of making our own decisions without needing the slightest "help" from you. That old, wearisome "if you're not with us, you're against us" mental diarrhea?

There were and apparently remain two huge misconceptions on the fringes (?) of the supposed political spectrum:

1) You don't have to be a fascist to be anti-communist
2) You don't have to be a communist to be anti-fascist

Concepts that don't fit into an authoritarian-to-totalitarian mindset of whatever ilk, admittedly.


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## Olorgando (Apr 25, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> ... and especially if the characters are invented and thus *not covered by book copyrights* ...
> 
> Hasn't anyone approached PJ yet with the idea of creating a Tauriel spin-off, kind of a latter-day Elven Xena? 😁





Annatar said:


> "My girl Galadriel!!!!!!🤙🤙🤙"


You clearly missed my point.


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## HALETH✒🗡 (Apr 25, 2022)

Annatar said:


> There are a few more or less good ones. Not all of them are book adaptations, but from my point of view rather successful fantasy films. But they are just a bit older.


Yes, old films are often better than new ones. Modern sequels to old franchises seldom turn out to be successful. I've got a meme on the topic. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad. 



Annatar said:


> I appreciate that Squint-eyed Southerner liked that post.


As I remember, Squint-eyed Southerner liked some of my posts where I criticize Amazon too. I'm grateful to him for that.  


Olorgando said:


> monotonous "woke political propaganda" bleating. 🐑


I didn't know that "bleating" is a term for the point of view that is different from yours.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 25, 2022)

I'll just say it can come to seem so, when used as a one-note, repetitive term of sweeping condemnation, as you can see here, and on other threads on the series.


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## Olorgando (Apr 25, 2022)

HALETH✒🗡 said:


> I didn't know that "bleating" is a term for the point of view that is different from yours.





Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I'll just say it can come to seem so, when used as a one-note, repetitive term of sweeping condemnation, as you can see here, and on other threads on the series.


S-eS pretty much always puts things more nicely than I do.
Annatar has stated his viewpoint far more often than was necessary for us to "get it" - that is bleating.


Annatar said:


> You should be the first front line in defending the original, not the henchmen of some globalist corporation that just wants to make money and doesn't give Tolkien the respect he deserves.


And this post of his makes it clear that he has serious difficulties not just with different opinions - his and those of most frequent posters here on TTF are not that far apart in fundamentals, a fact that seems to utterly escape him - no, he seems to feel the need to lecture members here that would run circles around him in things JRRT on what "true Tolkien fandom" is. As far as I'm concerned, his view on "true Tolkien fandom" is a highly warped one, and one that leads him, if one does not unreservedly share it, to utterly baseless accusations in post after post.

I can summarize my reaction to the by now utterly tedious repetitions of his viewpoint (which he is free to state - always with the caveat that he respects the forum rules, which everyone who registers as a member does in a contractual sense - and no, he does not decide what the rules mean, another fact that seems to utterly escape him) in two words:

Shove It. 👿


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 25, 2022)

I sometimes find myself being repetitive too. In this case:

"Let's be civil".


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## Olorgando (Apr 25, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I sometimes find myself being repetitive too. In this case:
> 
> "Let's be civil".


I'm very adaptable to my "environment", and have adjusted my civility to that of the posts I replied to ...


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## Halasían (Apr 25, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> Where in Arda have you found series "shills" in this forum?!?
> Unless by "shills" you mean those who refuse to chime in to your monotonous "woke political propaganda" bleating. 🐑
> 
> That's a typical example of your thunderously arrogant postings here. We are more than capable of making our own decisions without needing the slightest "help" from you. That old, wearisome "if you're not with us, you're against us" mental diarrhea?
> ...





Olorgando said:


> S-eS pretty much always puts things more nicely than I do.
> Annatar has stated his viewpoint far more often than was necessary for us to "get it" - that is bleating.
> 
> And this post of his makes it clear that he has serious difficulties not just with different opinions - his and those of most frequent posters here on TTF are not that far apart in fundamentals, a fact that seems to utterly escape him - no, he seems to feel the need to lecture members here that would run circles around him in things JRRT on what "true Tolkien fandom" is. As far as I'm concerned, his view on "true Tolkien fandom" is a highly warped one, and one that leads him, if one does not unreservedly share it, to utterly baseless accusations in post after post.
> ...


*Checks to see what planet I'm on when finding I am in almost complete agreement with the Gandolorian*

Yeah, it seems that particular 'collective-mindset' can't help themselves repeatedly bringing up one or more of the five (long-deleted) usual talking-points I listed. The term 'bleating' fits perfectly. I'm leaving this one.


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## Olorgando (Apr 25, 2022)

Halasían said:


> *Checks to see what planet I'm on when finding I am in almost complete agreement with the Gandolorian*


🤣🤣🤣👍


Halasían said:


> Yeah, it seems that particular 'collective-mindset' can't help themselves repeatedly bringing up one or more of the five (long-deleted) usual talking-points I listed. The term 'bleating' fits perfectly.


I just remembered another animal noise, one that had been nagging at the back of my head as being in JRRT's writing, if posthumous.
Yep, on page 3 of the "Ainulindalë" in the published "Silmarillion":

"... but it was loud, and vain, and endlessly repeated; and it had little harmony, but rather a clamorous unison as of many trumpets *braying* upon a few notes." 😈😈😈


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## Erestor Arcamen (Apr 26, 2022)

I didn't realize i was being paid for boosting the series, my bank hasn't been notified :-D. I have no problem with people criticizing the series. As I've stated previously, politics was outlawed on TTF long before this series was conceived, for obvious reasons, so we plan on maintaining those rules. If you're here discussing the series, positively or negatively, great please do I want to read it. If you're going to start discussing political "wokeness" it's not welcome here. It's not a hard concept and it's not hard to just *not post. *Those types of topics are not in line with our rules. We've already had a few casualties due to breaking these rules and we're not afraid to have more if rules continue to be broken.

*EA's non-mod thoughts on the show:*

Honestly, I think it will be a good fantasy series. A good representation of Tolkien's universe? probably not. I could care less what color the actor and actresses skin is because I'm watching the show for the *quality of the story*. No matter the race of the person behind the character, if they are a bad actor then sure, I'll criticize them. But I won't be doing so because they're not how I imagine a character from a fictional universe to look. If I don't like it, I'll turn it off, simple as that.


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## Annatar (Apr 26, 2022)

The funny thing is that this time I didn't say anything about "wokeness" at all, but had talked about the nonsensical names from a linguistic perspective.
For me this rather shows that with certain people here a meaningful discussion is not possible at all.
So who is really caught in a political permanent loop here? For some, criticism of the series now seems generally synonymous with right-wing extremism.
And with people like Halesian and Olorgando, it's clear to see that they have long since reached an arrogance level beyond good and evil, while their common sense must have flown away at some point. Congratulations! 👍

So again, I want to make it clear that "wokeness" is not the only reason, nor is it the main reason, why I already despise this series (though it may stand out the most obviously, and many other points are intertwined with it). It is miserable on so many different levels. And it makes no sense to keep reducing every other criticism to the wokeness issue. I absolutely agree that all opinions have already been exchanged multiple times on that point (just maybe not yet by everyone  ).


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## Annatar (Apr 26, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> *EA's non-mod thoughts on the show:*
> 
> Honestly, I think it will be a good fantasy series.


Yeah, maybe as some kind of comedy show where the two guys with the giant antlers take on the role of the old grandpas from the Muppet Show.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 26, 2022)

Those two aren't always necessarily funny, you know.


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## Annatar (Apr 26, 2022)

Now it's getting political again here with this trans-phobic image. 🤣


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 26, 2022)

You really had to stretch for that. 🤣


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## Annatar (Apr 26, 2022)

With any luck, the series Annatar will be transgender, as they may interpret it as Sauron being able to transform once as a man and once as a woman, as needed. 
With that, I will then denounce any contradictions to my postings on the forum as transphobic and political!


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## Olorgando (Apr 26, 2022)

Annatar said:


> For some, criticism of the series now seems generally synonymous with right-wing extremism.


Maybe you and all who are criticizing "the series" need to be reminded that it premieres on 02 September of this year. So unless anyone here was actually involved in the production, any talk about "the series" is inane blather. A one-minute trailer, that awful "Superfans" gaffe (truly disastrous), other snippets that I simply don't give 💩 about (my attitude to the series as a whole, basically). They all certainly don't bode well, to put it mildly. But the constant drone about "political agenda" and the rest is something basically you (and those two who have thankfully departed) keep dragging in. So perhaps you're not a right-wing extremist (or racist). Point is, many who are ceaselessly braying on such topics are. So maybe you need to think a bit about the "company you keep" verbally.

But the main reason I'm tearing into you is your also almost ceaseless, and baseless, innuendos and attacks on all who won't follow your warped views.



Annatar said:


> With that, I will then denounce any contradictions to my postings ...


This seems to be your main problem, contradictions. You seem to be able to deal with them (not) as "gracefully" as a politician whose presence in the news has mercifully dwindled greatly, if not nearly enough.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 26, 2022)




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## Annatar (Apr 26, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> Maybe you and all who are criticizing "the series" need to be reminded that it premieres on 02 September of this year.


No, I noticed that this series deliberately starts on the anniversary of Tolkien's *death*.



Olorgando said:


> So perhaps you're not a right-wing extremist (or racist). Point is, many who are ceaselessly braying on such topics are.


How do you know? Have you ever considered that maybe most of them aren't really like that (although the mainstream media likes to claim they are) and maybe even criticize these points for entirely different, even very plausible, reasons?
You'd complain just the same when anyone who defends this Amazon nonsense is labeled as a left-wing extremist. Maybe you're right that we, as Tolkien connoisseurs, are actually not that far apart and that this only escalates to the extreme in the course of the discussion. However, no matter what your political leanings, the series contributes to divisiveness simply because it's also quite obviously politically motivated. Anyone who denies this is living in their own bubble. And although I criticize Peter Jackson in many ways, at least his films were not political.

For me, two of the most important requirements for Tolkien film adaptations are a) to be as faithful as possible to the books (if it makes sense dramaturgically due to the time constraints - and that is, for example, the reason why I have not yet commented too negatively on the topic of time compression, which will be very important in the future - and b) to keep contemporary politics out of it so that the immersion is preserved.
Especially immersion is very important. So, for example, I get equally upset when the naming is sloppy and not Tolkien-worthy, even though everyone knows how immensely important language and names were to Tolkien.
So why can't we discuss it here? Instead, it was unfairly reduced to the topic of "wokeism" by alleged Tolkien connoisseurs. I honestly find it outrageous.
I'm still waiting for a factual answer.



Olorgando said:


> This seems to be your main problem, contradictions.


Well, you're extremely German, since irony is probably a foreign concept to you (and what you are quoting here was definitely meant ironically). It seems that you smell a Nazi in anyone who expresses the slightest criticism of wokeism and the series in general. You have been very well conditioned there by our mainstream media. Of course, this also fits your hatred of Trump. We already had an exchange via PM on this, and we probably won't get any further there either. But please turn your brain back on when it comes to other topics.

But actually I didn't want to end in such a negative way. I'm fed up with these political discussions. *The problem is that the series is very political.* But well, we now know our attitude towards it and should now try to avoid the subject if possible, although it is also clear that it will at least occasionally come up again and again. And it was of course very important to examine this aspect in detail. (I'm also sure there will be more heated discussions on other platforms in general in the future.)

I would wish for mutual tolerance here, so that we can deal with other important issues. Like in this case, for example, the mentioned, strange naming, which suggests that the authors had not dealt intensively with Tolkien (while the prop designers apparently did). So I offer this as a bridge to find a way back to rationality.

Edit: Nearly all my posts are "ennobled" by a "LOL reaction" from that sick stalker dude named Halasian, who has obviously lost all contact with reality. Others would see it as notorious bullying. What's wrong with you, guy? 😹 Hope he's getting some professional help. In any case, it has become a kind of seal of approval for me, so please continue.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Apr 26, 2022)

If these personal attacks and insults continue, this thread will have to be locked again.

Keep the discussion civil.


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## Annatar (Apr 26, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> If these personal attacks and insults continue, this thread will have to be locked again.
> 
> Keep the discussion civil.


Thank you.


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## Annatar (Apr 26, 2022)

Halasían said:


> Annetar, apparently I'm not allowed to comment on your edit so I'll just say that it is obvious you're looking in the mirror again.


If you have good arguments for once, feel free to send me a PM.


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## Annatar (Apr 26, 2022)

Annatar said:


> If you have good arguments for once, feel free to send me a PM.


Even with this offer, the only response is - as always - a "LOL" emoji. How sad is that?






"So sad!"


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## Annatar (Apr 26, 2022)

Halasían said:


> it will get watched


I agree, at least as far as seasons 1 to 2 are concerned, just because of curiosity.



Halasían said:


> It is sad that some of the threats being leveled at some of the actors in the series are a part of the reality of today.


What threats? These are certainly only very isolated extremists, if they exist at all - and that has nothing at all to do with the criticism of the series.
Sounds very far-fetched to me now, because you're on the defensive now. From my point of view, there are legitimate objections to the choices made by the clueless producers and series writers, and for good reasons of Tolkien lore, but no threats against specific actors.



Halasían said:


> Anyway, will watch, and will critique when it has been seen.


Yes, I will at least watch the first season as well to critique it. And I will also, as before, name the things I like, as for example some visuals of Tirion or Numenor. I see myself first and foremost as an objective Tolkien fan. And I expect the same from everyone else in an explicit Tolkien forum like this. Hopefully, this is not a covert Amazon fan site in the end. 

At least I'm glad that you're finally trying to unpack some "arguments", so that a more or less meaningful discussion could come about. Keep it up! Although your stupid LOL emojies of course continue, but on the other hand you remain true to yourself. 👍


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## Annatar (Apr 26, 2022)

Halasían said:


> For some reason


Since you comment on every post of mine with at least one emoji, I guess I'm the center of your online life. 😹
(And you probably only have an online life, too 😜).

Well, anyway. Let's just agree that I already don't like the Rings of Power series and that you won't like it until later...
Or is it more important to you to provoke? In that case, please really only by PM, otherwise I really have to ignore you from now on. "So sad..." 😥


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## HALETH✒🗡 (Apr 27, 2022)

Annatar said:


> No, I noticed that this series deliberately starts on the anniversary of Tolkien's *death*.


I noticed it too. Was it made on purpose?


Olorgando said:


> So perhaps you're not a right-wing extremist (or racist). Point is, many who are ceaselessly braying on such topics are.


If I say that there're no yellow dogs, it doesn't mean that I don't like yellow parrots. My pet is a pretty yellow parrot.


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## Annatar (Apr 28, 2022)

HALETH✒🗡 said:


> I noticed it too. Was it made on purpose?


Of course. The only question is what the intention is.
The optimists would say: you just had to choose some date that is connected to Tolkien and just happened to fit into the timetable.
The pessimists would say: It's a hidden indication that they want to destroy the Tolkien franchise with it, analogous to the new Star Wars trilogy. 

Both are probably right. 😹

Here's a short video about the names of the fanfiction characters:






Also, those "Fellowship of Fans" guys have revealed some information about the main villain of the first season:

- Adar is a fallen elf, rumored to possibly be a brother of Galadriel.
- He leads a band of orcs who revere him as a father figure.
- He is in search of a magical talisman.
- His costume started out looking very orcish and evil, but was changed again to make him look more like an elf.

Does all this still have anything to do with Tolkien?
Not even remotely!

And here's another very special perversity: new covers for the Lord of the Rings books with motifs from the series:














Harper Collins and Folio Society publishing new editions of The Lord of the Rings


There's some movement on the Tolkien publishing front. People out there who are cover collectors (and the variety and number of covers that The Lord of the Rings has had over the years is pretty wild), will be especially interested. Rings of Power series tie-in covers First, Harper Collins...




www.theonering.net


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## Annatar (May 2, 2022)

> During an interview with Sam Maggs at Calgary Expo 2022, actor *Sean Astin* revealed that he’s already seen the preview… and it gave him chills.
> 
> “I for one am excited,” he said. “I saw the preview for it, and it gave me chills. It looked like they got it. I've been saying the whole time, they're gonna do it right. There's no way Amazon is gonna pay almost a billion dollars for a franchise just to screw it up.”











Lord Of the Rings' Sam Gamgee Actor Got 'Chills' From Watching Rings Of Power - IGN


The Lord of the Rings star Sean Astin is a fan of Amazon's The Rings of Power, explaining he got 'chills' when watching the preview.




www.ign.com





Yes, when an actor like him gets privileged access and then publicly proclaims it all as super good, it can only be a matter of bribery uhh I mean true joy. 👍



> The upcoming series will [...] even includes some characters we know and love, even if they look a bit different.


Even some we know. Wow!



> “It will bring new awareness to what we did, so it's all good,” he added


Aha. I see...


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## HALETH✒🗡 (May 3, 2022)

Annatar said:


> Lord Of the Rings' Sam Gamgee Actor Got 'Chills' From Watching Rings Of Power - IGN
> 
> 
> The Lord of the Rings star Sean Astin is a fan of Amazon's The Rings of Power, explaining he got 'chills' when watching the preview.
> ...


Oh, Sam, I hardly recognize the hobbit that you used to be. You've changed.


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## Annatar (May 12, 2022)

Halasían said:


> His enthusiasm has tweaked my tilt-o-meter a little more toward the positive.


You do know that he gets paid for it and doesn't do it for free? 😂

But I'm also convinced that at least the cities, buildings, etc. will look good. As I said, I also really liked the pictures of Valinor and Numenor. But what good is that if the rest doesn't fit. It will be just like Wheel of Time.

Here, for example, is a very nice image from Wheel of Time.
If you only knew this picture, you would think it was an atmospheric, good series. However, it is total garbage. I've seen it myself, unfortunately, but if you don't believe me, just check out the disastrous reviews on Amazon.


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## Olorgando (May 13, 2022)

Halasían said:


> Do I hear more bleating whataboutism? Yes I do. Right on cue. 🤣


Seems you're more patient than I am, Hal ...


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## Halasían (May 15, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> Seems you're more patient than I am, Hal ...


I don't know about that. It is pretty pointless to even bother posting anything and hoping to talk about Rings of Power here really. I liked the John Howe piece and was just testing the waters.


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## Olorgando (May 15, 2022)

Halasían said:


> I don't know about that. It is pretty pointless to even bother posting anything and hoping to talk about Rings of Power here really. I liked the John Howe piece and was just testing the waters.


Reminds me vaguely of some early threads I stumbled across in 2019. Pre-release of "Fellowship", with people speculating (probably quite wildly).
Same thing happened before the releases of "TT" and "RoTK". At least by then people had some inkling of what they might expect.
Some of those old threads - or at least some of the posts there - can be amusing reading 20 years later (or a bit less for "TT" and "RoTK").
But my overall impression was that nobody read Peter Jackson's mind correctly.
Which is why I find similar attempts with the current series (still almost four months before first airing) so pathetic.


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## Annatar (May 15, 2022)

Compromise suggestion for you two funny Amazon shills and similarly minded:

Why don't you create your own exclusive thread:

*"The Amazon Shill Thread: Only praise and positive criticism allowed here. Evil Annatars, stay out! We're thrilled!"*

So far I'd be able to contribute - as mentioned several times - that I quite like the look of the cities and places we've seen so far, for which Howe is probably responsible. Likewise, I think the maps (published a long time ago) are ingenious.
Who knows, maybe there will be more things to appreciate in the future as well? But you have to start from the current status and look at it objectively, but especially HERE from the perspective of a Tolkien fan, also question it very critically.

But even if I make some concessions like e.g. in the design of cities, funnily enough, you still start wailing and gnashing your teeth, because you are in a detached mental bubble, which in my view has lost all contact with reality. 
You don't provide any real arguments since the release of the trailer, you don't go into the content of the criticism at all, but can only help yourselves with embarrassing polemics and questionable insults, and all this from a seemingly elitist, arrogant point of view. But keep it up, you provide for my regular amusement. Even if the accusations of racism here weren't as completely stupid and violent as, for example, on theonering.net and their Twitter accounts, certain people here pointed out that the critics of the series only had this one skin color argument. This has since been refuted multiple times, but all other criticisms of the series have met with very moronic or malicious reactions from certain people here, which for Tolkien connoisseurs should be irrational anyway.

I'd promise you though, I would respect your "safe space" in the form of a "positive only thread" on this topic.

Even though I find your, in my humble opinion, rather moronic approach pathetic, I'm serious about that. I don't see things as black and white as you do, and would therefore be in favor of clearly highlighting the positive aspects of the series, too. Of course, such a thread would also be very subjective, and many would probably often contradict (as I do here), but that could be kept out of this thread, according to your predefined rules. 
One could perhaps distinguish between two categories: does it a) make sense in principle for any (modern) series or b) does it make sense from a book point of view?

In any case, I see myself first and foremost as a loyal book and Tolkien fan. I largely ignore the Peter Jackson film adaptations. They had some good moments in my opinion (such as Howe's design here as well), but for the most part I dislike these films. But, because Olorgando started it, I have to point out again that early fan criticism at the time caused Arwen's role to be rewritten again to be closer to the books than PJ (or the producers, who knows) originally had wanted out of mainstream pandering. So it's positive to point out that early hardcore fan criticism did have the effect that the films were closer to the books than originally planned. 
Thus, basically, I see it as very positive from my Tolkienist perspective when future adaptations are dissected and criticized by the fans as early and as severely as possible, in the hope that the producers will respond and try to change course again. 

So PJ responded to at least some criticism at the time. Amazon has not yet addressed this sufficiently, although the criticism is extremely severe. Amazon first tried to denounce critical Tolkien fans as racists etc. (as already linked here for a few small examples), but this only caused a bigger rebellion from the fan-base. Now they seem to try it a little smarter. After the superwoke "superfans", Amazon has now spent a little more money to lure influential YouTubers into their web...

Here are two interesting videos on Amazon's recent invitations to so-called (or former real) Tolkien influencers.
I had subscribed to some of these "guests" a long time ago and used to think they were good, but they obviously don't have as much integrity as I thought.
At my work, by the way, it would not be allowed to accept such bribes for compliance reasons. 











Over time, some formerly seemingly loyal Tolkien "influencers" attached more and more importance to their channel getting more followers and thus producing more money. Let's see if they speculated correctly. However, some may have also sold their souls for celebrity access and free vacations.

Somewhere in the comments, most of them worth reading, I found a wonderful metaphor: 
Sauron handing out the 9 Rings to the kings of men. 👍


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## Annatar (May 15, 2022)

Halasían said:


> I started a 'reasons to hate Rings of Power' thread and it was locked down in a day, so I doubt a 'reasons to love Rings of Power' thread would fare much better.


Well, your original thread was obviously meant ironically and was meant to denounce any criticism of the series from the beginning. Secondly, I was already registered in the forum at that time and can therefore confirm that your thread, in contrast to your current statement, was not censored immediately, but remained open for an extremely long time. And that, by the way, completely justified. For me, it is a completely legitimate opinion to find the series good before release, even if I have 1000 reasons to disagree.

Anyway, I didn't know this thread was locked. Is that true?

That this thread was locked due to pro-Amazon positions would have to be proven, especially since at least half of the active moderators are still rather positive about the series. So I think that's absolutely nonsensical - if anything, there was a lock due to extremists on my side, which I condemn as well.
Extremists are to be condemned in any case. It is important to remain factual and to respond to arguments, but here I'd basically assume that the average user accepts Tolkien literature as a basis and canon and therefore has at least got an intuitive understanding of what is appropriate.


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## Annatar (Jun 7, 2022)

Tolkien based the 3 Hobbit tribes on the Jutes, Angles and Saxons who moved to the British Isles. Also, it is commonly known that the Hobbits represent the native English, rural population:









England in Middle-earth - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





You'd like to think that Amazon has some real Tolkien experts on staff who pay attention to such things. But that is obviously not desired:
Amazon is apparently engaging in cultural appropriation to enforce its mandated quotas, as you can clearly see in this new image from the series, showing three "Hobbits":






This also makes me wonder how many characters will be gay or lesbian or trans so that the producers don't get fired for not meeting mandated quotas...

Let's get this straight: I have nothing against these actors, but they are as miscast in this role as a black woman as a Viking leader or a white man as a master samurai from Japanese myths would be miscast.
They could have been wonderfully cast as Haradrim, for example, or perhaps even as Druedain (who do occur in the Second Age as opposed to Hobbits).
I also have nothing against gay actors playing any roles. I do object when straight roles from the books are rewritten into gay roles for the film version.

It's just all against common sense. And against Tolkien's books.

In the end, it's all about nonsensical, immersion-destroying Amazon rules, as you can clearly see here:


Each film or series with a creative team of three or more people in above-the-line roles (Directors, Writers, Producers) should ideally include a minimum 30% women and 30% members of an underrepresented racial/ethnic group. This will increase to 50% by 2024.
Aiming to include one character from each of the following categories in speaking roles, with minimum 50% of these to be women: LGBTQIA+, person with a disability, and three regionally underrepresented race/ethnic/cultural groups.
Seeking at least three bids from vendors or suppliers on productions, one of which must be from a woman-owned business and one from a minority-owned business.
etc.









Amazon Studios Lays Out Diversity Guidelines With Inclusion Playbook


The Playbook sets hiring, casting and staffing guidelines




www.thewrap.com





First, these rules are not purposeful and do more harm than good, second, of course, it's all just total hypocrisy:



> Bias, disrespect, and demotions: Black employees say Amazon has a race problem​











Bias, disrespect, and demotions: Black employees say Amazon has a race problem


Interviews with diversity managers and internal data obtained by Recode indicate that Black Amazon employees are promoted less frequently and are rated more harshly than non-Black peers.




www.vox.com


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## Bahnz (Jun 15, 2022)

Annatar said:


> I'd promise you though, I would respect your "safe space" in the form of a "positive only thread" on this topic.
> 
> Even though I find your, in my humble opinion, rather moronic approach pathetic, I'm serious about that.




😆


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jun 23, 2022)

Orcs.


El Señor de los Anillos: primer vistazo en exclusiva a los orcos de Los Anillos de Poder


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## Annatar (Jun 24, 2022)

They look just like PJ's.
(Which I think is okay in this case. I was never a PJ fan, but his orcs actually looked orcish and much better than the Warcraft orcs, for example).

Now for something completely different.

Amazon Prime / RoP commercial:






... and some comments:











Seems like the next PR disaster to me. This Amazon ad has 1264 likes and 21k dislikes.


One comment sums it up nicely:


> So that kid is reading a book with no black elves, and likes it enough to go to a convention or something.
> See Amazon, it doesn't matter where you come from, everyone enjoys Tolkien's work.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jun 24, 2022)

Annatar said:


> his orcs actually looked orcish


Ah, but wait! Some True Fans are unhappy:








"Murdering Tolkien's Work," Amazon Turns 'Lord of the Rings' "Woke" With Female Orcs - Inside the Magic


Tolkien fans are divided after Amazon announces the addition of female Orcs in its 'Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power.'




insidethemagic.net





BTW -- while the Giant Slayer was doing his research, he might have researched how to pronounce "Tolkien". 😀


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## Radaghast (Jun 26, 2022)

Always nice to see Tolkien's work misrepresented by its so-called defenders 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1539383856389931009








"Murdering Tolkien's Work," Amazon Turns 'Lord of the Rings' "Woke" With Female Orcs - Inside the Magic


Tolkien fans are divided after Amazon announces the addition of female Orcs in its 'Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power.'




insidethemagic.net





Not that I'm at all interested in ROP but, wow, can some "fans" make fandom in general look bad.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jun 26, 2022)

Yup. See my post above.


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## Radaghast (Jun 26, 2022)

Annatar said:


> They look just like PJ's.
> (Which I think is okay in this case. I was never a PJ fan, but his orcs actually looked orcish and much better than the Warcraft orcs, for example).
> 
> Now for something completely different.
> ...


Apparently, Amazon's been deleting comments.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jun 26, 2022)

"They’re born as adults in scum and mud and bred only to kill, they don’t have a sex because they don’t sexually reproduce."

This reminds me of a favorite quote from the 1982 classic, Diner:

"What? People didn't come from dinosaurs! They came from . . ._Europe_!"


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## Annatar (Jun 26, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1539383856389931009
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I wonder if a troll wrote that.
If not, it was probably a PJ fan who never read the books.


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## Radaghast (Jun 26, 2022)

Annatar said:


> I wonder if a troll wrote that.
> If not, it was probably a PJ fan who never read the books.


There was another tweeter in that article that seemed to take the movie scene as canon.


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## Annatar (Jun 26, 2022)

I'm already looking forward to it, when in a few years the "real fans and connoisseurs" will claim that it is canon that some important person fell from the sky via meteorite, that the Second Age could only be saved by the forbidden love between a single mother and a short-haired desert elf, and that the ancestors of the hobbits wore lettuce and garden herbs in their hair and also had feet 1 foot long. (Hence the namimg "foot" = 30,48cm.)


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jul 6, 2022)

There's a new trailer, but the whole thing won't be released generally until July 14.


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## d4rk3lf (Jul 7, 2022)

Annatar said:


> I'm already looking forward to it, when in a few years the "real fans and connoisseurs" will claim that it is canon that some important person fell from the sky via meteorite, that the Second Age could only be saved by the forbidden love between a single mother and a short-haired desert elf, and that the ancestors of the hobbits wore lettuce and garden herbs in their hair and also had feet 1 foot long. (Hence the namimg "foot" = 30,48cm.)


Exactly bro. 
It's already annoying how PJ movies are almost taken as canon, because of these new series, and they too had so many flaws.


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## Annatar (Jul 8, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> There's a new trailer, but the whole thing won't be released generally until July 14.


I know, you've been waiting a long time for a new rant from me. Now here it is. 😁

I have now seen two different new teasers, but one of them seems to have been deleted already. Both last about a minute.
I don't know if you can still watch both on Amazon Prime, because I already cancelled my Prime subscription due to the desecration of "Wheel of Time".

One shows all kinds of people gawking at Meteor Man, who is just about to land. And that pseudo hobbit with the awkward wig says, "The shkieeees are sssshhhhtraaaange!!!" 🤡

In the other, you see a few more nice looking snippets of Numenor and a couple of Elven cities in between confused action scenes. One of the Elven cities looks architecturally very similar to Peter Jackson's Rivendell, which I already found too cheesy at the time, especially since it also has nothing to do with Tolkien's own drawing. Still, the cities in this teaser are a small ray of hope. (We probably have John Howe to thank for that. So at least you can get some nice screenshots out of it as Tolkien inspired art.)

Overall, both trailers don't seem very Tolkien-esque to me, except for some of the landscapes and the cities. There is no Middle-earth atmosphere, it just looks like modern, at most diverse, woke, generic standard US/Hollywood fantasy, designed solely for modern, young US consumers. That might be okay in principle, if they did not a) want to make money with the Lord of the Rings label and b) would stick more to the lore. But the arrogant producers believe they know better than the master. “Can we come up with the novel Tolkien never wrote and do it as the mega-event series that could only happen now?” Well, you can try, but it will be very embarrassing. Just make your own crappy fantasy story instead of desecrating an existing work! As it seems, at least 75% of everything is fictitious anyway and has nothing to do with Tolkien's original. So you actually think Tolkien sucks, but at the same time you want to make money with his name. Pathetic.

And of course, as I already predicted, Tar-Miriel is PoC-Miriel. This shows once more, as with the other peoples, that the optical appearance and origin of the protagonists is not explained Middle-earth immanent meaningfully but is taken solely on the basis of politically motivated quota rules, which makes sense in modern stories set in big metropolises with a lot of multiculturalism, but not in historical or mythological stories where the book template is very clear. There is also diversity, but the individual peoples themselves are 99% non-diverse but of homogeneous descent. And that's what makes it so interesting in real fantasy or in historical stories, when someone travels to other countries and gets to know new peoples, customs, cultures, etc., instead of everything just being randomly mixed everywhere.
And when someone says they can't empathize with people who have a different skin color than themselves in a movie, that's total insanity. For example, Lenny Henry says, "If you can't see it, you can't be it." What nonsense. Then, for example, no white people would have been able to watch "I Am Legend" with Will Smith. What a ridiculous idea.
This way of thinking would be true fixation on skin color (or even worse), while here we value Middle-earth being logically comprehensible, coherent and true to the book. I hope that one of those goofy movie producers / showrunners is reading along here, but of course they're way too aloof to bother with a Tolkien forum.

_ "Miriel, the only daughter of Tar-Palantir, was a woman of great beauty, smaller than most of the women of that land, with bright eyes." (...) “And the last, an emerald-green, cold, billowing wave crowned with foam, surging over the earth, accepted into its bosom its queen Tar-Miriel - the one who was a fair of pearls, more fairer than silver and ivory. Too late she tried to climb the steep path of Meneltarma to the sanctuary; the waves swept over her, and her cry was drowned in the roar of the wind."_

So the two teasers are exactly as expected, confirming once again what one could already interpret out before. So really nothing fundamentally new. And that's probably how it will be in a week, too.


Although the show will of course be maximum crap, it's still fun to speculate:

Who do you think the meteor man will be?
1) Gandalf
2) Sauron/Annatar
3) Tom Bombadil
4) a Blue Wizard
5) an "Amazon original"
6) Celeborn
7) just a sign that the dragons in "Game of Thrones" have awakened again

Where is Celeborn?
1) He's on a secret mission in the east.
2) He's the meteor man.
3) He has not yet been born.
4) He's dead.
5) He's doing a hundred year sabattical right now.
6) Galadriel has divorced him and he is completely occupied with raising Celebrian, while Galadriel takes care of world politics.
7) Who is Celeborn?

How can Durin III and Durin IV exist in parallel?
1) An error in the matrix.
2) Durin IV is in truth not Durin IV but a disguised Celeborn.
3) Only Aule can explain this.

How many orcs will Galardiel kill?
1) At least a thousand
2) at least a hundred thousand
3) at least a billion
4) in any case more than all men together, because she's an independent, strong, female girlpower-elf

Why do the hobbits wear salad and herbs in their hair?
1) Because it looks cool.
2) Because it looks idiotic.
3) It's for camouflage.
4) Because it's the original version of pipeweed and they get high from its smell.
5) What is this question, let's rather dance and sing while wearing a strange dress made of straw.


----------



## d4rk3lf (Jul 8, 2022)

Annatar said:


> Who do you think the meteor man will be?
> 1) Gandalf
> 2) Sauron/Annatar


Both.
I think, they will try to decieve audience by showing that meteorite man is some of the istari (like an old wizzard), but ultimately, it will be Sauron himself.
This way, they will try to deceive the fans too, because fans know that Annatar didn't looked like an old wizzard.


Annatar said:


> Where is Celeborn?


They already showed Celebrimbor in promo posters.

I am sure you will be deeply impressed:








EDIT:
Ahh sorry... I thought you were asking for Celebrimbor. 

Celeborn will probably be like transgender Gollum creature.


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## Annatar (Jul 8, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> Both.
> I think, they will try to decieve audience by showing that meteorite man is some of the istari (like an old wizzard), but ultimately, it will be Sauron himself.
> This way, they will try to deceive the fans too, because fans know that Annatar didn't looked like an old wizzard.


Yes, that sounds plausible to me.



d4rk3lf said:


> I am sure you will be deeply impressed:


As far as I know, this is not supposed to be Celeborn, but the good old Celebrimbor. Even if he looks rather like if he's from Westeros and is working on killing the current king in King's Landing...


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## d4rk3lf (Jul 8, 2022)

Annatar said:


> As far as I know, this is not supposed to be Celeborn, but the good old Celebrimbor. Even if he looks rather like if he's from Westeros and is working on killing the current king in King's Landing...


Yup, I noticed my mistake right after I posted, and edited my post. 

Don't mind me, Celeborn was always somehow in Galadriel shadow, so easy to miss him.


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## Annatar (Jul 8, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> Don't mind me, Celeborn was always somehow in Galadriel shadow, so easy to miss him.


Don't worry, that's apparently what happened to the Tolkien experts at Amazon, too. 😉
However, there are rumors that he will appear in a later season.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jul 8, 2022)

Annatar said:


> I have now seen two different new teasers, but one of them seems to have been deleted already.


What appears to be happening is people posting the full trailer on YouTube, ahead of the scheduled release, which are then taken down. Here's one, for instance:





So watch it soon.


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## Annatar (Jul 8, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> What appears to be happening is people posting the full trailer on YouTube, ahead of the scheduled release, which are then taken down. Here's one, for instance:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hmm, no, referring to my posting, that's just the first teaser (and subsequently the very first one we've known for a long time).

The second one I saw was completely different, as I said, with lots of footage of Numenor and Elvish cities. I had seen it on Twitter, but now it's deleted. Maybe it was already a clip from the trailer that should come in a week?


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## Gothmog (Jul 8, 2022)

So even Amazon is expecting it to crash and burn then.


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## Annatar (Jul 8, 2022)

Ah here it is again (but in Spanish or rather even Portuguese, I guess?):


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1545509719812489219
Edit: If someone understands the language, please translate. 
But be quick, it will probably be gone soon.


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## d4rk3lf (Jul 8, 2022)

Annatar said:


> Ah here it is again


Holy crap. 
I think that first teaser (even with it's numerous flaws), is way better then second teaser and this trailer. 
Thanks for sharing.


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## Annatar (Jul 8, 2022)

So to refer back to my post from earlier, I can now give you the parts in the video.
- At 0:06 you can see an elven city, very reminiscent of PJ's Rivendell architecture. No idea what it is supposed to be, maybe Ost-in-Edhil or something in Valinor?
- At 0:12: some very ridiculous looking pseudo-hobbits doing some kind of tribal dance.
- At 0:17 you may see (unfortunately only very, very briefly) another Elvish city, which I find really great designed. According to some clues, this could possibly be Mithlond.
- At 0:20, a guy hangs on the ice wall just like in the well-known Galadriel scene. Maybe that's Celeborn? But he looks more like a human.
- 0:27: I'd have to understand Portuguese now, but I guess it's about a brother of Galadriel who was killed?
- 0:38: Here Galadriel and someone else (Hal-bro?) are riding along a coast, where you can see a castle in the background. Looks cool, but so far I have no idea what it is supposed to be. Vinyalonde? Looks more human than elvish, anyway.
- 0:44 is surely a Numenor scene, maybe with Ar-Pharazon inciting a civil war.
- At 0:46, Arondir, the Lord of Physics, is doing acrobatic tricks fighting a warg or something.
- 0:49: The good old Meteor Man's finally back, who doesn't know him...


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jul 8, 2022)

Annatar said:


> Ah here it is again (but in Spanish or rather even Portuguese, I guess?):
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1545509719812489219
> ...


OK, I thought the one I posted looked familiar. Oddly, that one was posted just hours ago, as were several others.

I did find the new one on YouTube, but it's the same Portuguese version you posted.

Which I liked, BTW.


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## Annatar (Jul 8, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Which I liked, BTW.


That would be too much praise. I would put it this way, that I hate this one the least of the trailers so far.
That's because of the beautiful cities and castles, the habituation effect, the fact that I don't understand Portuguese, and the fact that everything is cut so quickly that you don't have time to fret over details - and the fact that I've already had 4 beers. 😬 Here, for the first time, I would see some potential for a mediocre to good random fantasy series, but unfortunately there is the claim to keep up with Tolkien, which is why I get sick at the end again...


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## d4rk3lf (Jul 8, 2022)

I dislike these stone heads... looks very forceful to me.
I know Numenorians could carve stone like a cheese, but these head statues, I don't think it's the best choice. 



Annatar said:


> - At 0:46, Arondir, the Lord of Physics, is doing acrobatic tricks fighting a warg or something.


Nothing can beat this shot though


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## Annatar (Jul 8, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> Nothing can beat this shot though


That's right, PJ-Legolas is even a multidimensional time traveler. Actually, that's how the War of the Ring really happened:


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## d4rk3lf (Jul 8, 2022)

Annatar said:


> Edit: If someone understands the language, please translate.



This means:
In September
---------------------------
Joke aside.. this shot now caught my attention:


I like this.
Love the silhouette, and mood.
I think we all know who the character on the throne is (the one I shall not speak his name loudly)
But can't figure out what is this environment and occasion... can't recall anything similar from second age, or even the first.


Annatar said:


> - 0:27: I'd have to understand Portuguese now, but I guess it's about a brother of Galadriel who was killed?



If you mean battle between Finrod and Sauron (ups.. I spoke his name) with songs of power, I don't think so, because other characters are here floating in the air (probably dead).
That battle of the songs of power would probably be 1vs1, something like this:



http://tolkiengateway.net/w/images/thumb/f/f3/KuraiGeijutsu_-_And_Finrod_fell_before_the_Throne.jpg/476px-KuraiGeijutsu_-_And_Finrod_fell_before_the_Throne.jpg


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## Annatar (Jul 8, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> This means:
> In September


😂🤣😂


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## Annatar (Jul 8, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> I like this.
> Love the silhouette, and mood.


It reminds me of Bakshi:


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## Tar-Elenion (Jul 9, 2022)

The translation is supposedly this:
Harfoot:
The elves protect the forests.
The dwarves, the mines.
The men, their crops.
But we, harfoots, have each other.
Galadriel:
The enemy is still on the loose, and the question is, where?
Elrond:
You have fought a long time, Galadriel. Hand over your sword.
Galadriel:
You didn't see what I saw, you didn't!
Gil-Galad:
Darkness will march over the face of the earth.
It will be the end for all the peoples.
man:
The past died.
Durin IV:
This could be the beginning of a new era.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1545462566960463880


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## Rōmānus (Jul 9, 2022)

Is there a connection between this franchise and the creature in the water outside of Moria?


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## d4rk3lf (Jul 9, 2022)

There is. 
Watcher in the water is Amazon, that grabs for the leg Frodo (Tolkien legacy) and want's to eat it, as in the movies.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jul 9, 2022)

Or, or, maybe this guy left nothing but bones?


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## Annatar (Jul 9, 2022)

Rōmānus said:


> Is there a connection between this franchise and the creature in the water outside of Moria?


Maybe, but there are some other connections that are more obvious:

1.


> `No, they eat and drink, Sam. *The Shadow that bred them can only mock, it cannot make: not real new things of its own. I don't think it gave life to the orcs, it only ruined them and twisted them;
> 
> and if they are to live at all, they have to live like other living creatures*. Foul waters and foul meats they'll take, if they can get no better, but not poison.


2.


> *For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar; and naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance of life, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion in the Ainulindalë* before the Beginning: so say the wise.


So, for example, if you assume, as Tolkien did with his original idea, that (at least most of) the original orcs evolved from perverted elves through Morgoth's torture, etc., you can say that the books correspond to the elves and the series to the orcs.
The orcs, while thoroughly evil, are also wretched and pitiful; and quite remotely, their origins remind us of Eru's grandiose creation.
Moreover, some of Morgoth's minions, such as that vile Annatar 😉, like to give themselves a graceful exterior while being utterly depraved deep down. The series will also deliver many beautiful images, landscapes, cities, costumes, props, etc., but in essence will be completely spoiled (and disappointing in terms of plot and atmosphere, etc.) - just like Annatar. 😁
So you can also extract a few positive things from the series indirectly if you dig deep enough, but in the overall picture it will be a depressing, ridiculous and sad disappointment, but at the same time completely fulfilling the malicious and money-grubbing intentions of this bloated corporation.

By the way, the so-called Tolkien influencers who were recently invited by Amazon to Oxford for dinner and some other exclusive events remind me of the Nine who were foolish enough to accept a Ring of Power. Sure their follower numbers will explode, but in the end they are just corrupt lackeys who sold their souls to manipulate other people in the interests of their sponsor. 😂
If you look at this from a bird's eye view, it's all so clear and at the same time so ridiculous and funny how many people fall for it.


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## Annatar (Jul 12, 2022)

In this Waterworld Rings of Power series, almost everything is crap, but still - the waves! - they are supposed to look very realistic thanks to the latest high-tech. It's good to know that the immensely high budget is actually being used for the essential things. 😬

https://collider.com/lord-of-the-ri...seas-morfydd-clark-charlie-vickers-ja-bayona/

Plus, a strong, female elf rescues a drowning Halbrand during a wet T-shirt contest:





In any case, I'm very glad that the strong, female elf is not wearing heavy plate armor in this case.

By the way, some book fanatics are already complaining that the breasts are not big enough according to the lore. 
Personally, I wouldn't get involved in these speculations yet, but I'm sure we'll be able to judge that more accurately when the series starts in September.

But seriously. What is really a bit funny:
According to Unfinished Tales, "The Disaster of the Gladden Fields," Galadriel is 6 feet, 4 inches (193cm) tall. Which is really very tall.
Morfydd Clark, on the other hand, is only 5 feet 3 inches (162cm) short.
I really hope that the series creators will digitally adjust this accordingly.
But even that should not be so easy, because the head is actually the same size for everyone.
I think Morfydd is very pretty and would be suitable for Galadriel, but in fact she is much too small.






You probably won't be able to manipulate the head-body proportion digitally that easily, but we'll see....

I'm also very curious why Ulmo doesn't take better care of the elves who cross the sea. This can only be explained by those Unfinished Tales versions, according to which certain Noldor are denied the return to Valinor after the First Age. According to canon, Galadriel did not want to go to Valinor anyway. So what is she doing on the sea?

According to rumors (FoF), she lands in Numenor and beats up a few men there before she is allowed to speak to the queen PoC-Miriel together with Halbrand...


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## d4rk3lf (Jul 12, 2022)

I was most annoyed, in the first trailer, where we see that man removes "Galadriel" hair to check out if she's an elf (while she is looking at him like a scared lamb). 
In REAL Middle earth, if he did that, he'd loose the hand. 



Annatar said:


> I'm also very curious why Ulmo doesn't take better care of the elves who cross the sea.


Why using Ulmo, when you can just invent some new character, like that guy Halbrand ? 
----------------

So, I guess we are waiting now trailer we already saw?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jul 12, 2022)

__


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## Annatar (Jul 13, 2022)

Warning: spoilers - or fake news?


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## Rōmānus (Jul 14, 2022)

Annatar said:


> According to Unfinished Tales, "The Disaster of the Gladden Fields," Galadriel is 6 feet, 4 inches (193cm) tall. Which is really very tall.
> Morfydd Clark, on the other hand, is only 5 feet 3 inches (162cm) short.
> I really hope that the series creators will digitally adjust this accordingly.



The Dúnedain are also supposed to be tall, this was not portrayed in the movies, and I’m not sure if this aspect can be.


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## Gothmog (Jul 14, 2022)

Rōmānus said:


> The Dúnedain are also supposed to be tall, this was not portrayed in the movies, and I’m not sure if this aspect can be.


Well, they did manage to make Gimli shorter in the films. (Though at a cost to the dignity of his character.)


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## Aldarion (Jul 14, 2022)

Gothmog said:


> Well, they did manage to make Gimli shorter in the films. (Though at a cost to the dignity of his character.)


That was mostly playing with perspective, as well as using stunt doubles in long-perspective shots. But making one actor short is one thing, making a lot of actors tall...?


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## d4rk3lf (Jul 14, 2022)

Final trailer.


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## Radaghast (Jul 14, 2022)

__
https://www.reddit.com/r/lotr/comments/vyjcxn


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## d4rk3lf (Jul 14, 2022)

Is this The Bridge of Khazad Dum?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jul 14, 2022)

Looks possible.


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## d4rk3lf (Jul 14, 2022)

Sons of Feanor?


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## Gothmog (Jul 14, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> Final trailer.


Interesting show. I wonder what it is based on?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jul 14, 2022)

That's what I asked about the Hobbit movies.


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## Bahnz (Jul 14, 2022)

The trailer looks great. Loved the shots of the oath, what I’m assuming is the first kinslaying, and the first glimpses of Gil-galad, Elendil and Pharazon.


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## HenryVIIII (Jul 15, 2022)

Bahnz said:


> The trailer looks great. Loved the shots of the oath, what I’m assuming is the first kinslaying, and the first glimpses of Gil-galad, Elendil and Pharazon.


How do they possibly have the rights to depict the Oath or the Kinslaying though?


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## Bahnz (Jul 15, 2022)

HenryVIIII said:


> How do they possibly have the rights to depict the Oath or the Kinslaying though?


They’ve said they’re able to request the use of bits and pieces from the wider lore from the estate, provided that nothing they portray contradicts anything in the source material.


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## d4rk3lf (Jul 15, 2022)

Bahnz said:


> They’ve said they’re able to request the use of bits and pieces from the wider lore from the estate, provided that nothing they portray contradicts anything in the source material.


Yeah, I've heard that too. 

Tolkien Estate do a really poor job protecting Tolkien legacy. 
The phrase: "nothing they portray contradicts anything in the source material", is not really something that will stop butchering professors work. 
Aliens and giant robots, doesn't necessarily contradict middle earth, but they still don't belong there.


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## d4rk3lf (Jul 15, 2022)

LOL 
Yeah.. Peter Jacksons already did something like that with that giant mountains fight in Hobbit. 
It's literally how: "nothing they portray contradicts anything in the source material" can go wrong.


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## Aldarion (Jul 15, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> LOL
> Yeah.. Peter Jacksons already did something like that with that giant mountains fight in Hobbit.
> It's literally how: "nothing they portray contradicts anything in the source material" can go wrong.


Eh, the entire Hobbit trilogy is an example of that. Though I'm not certain how much of that is actually Jackson's fault - wasn't he brought in fairly late? I think del Torro worked on it previously... he might have wanted to have Jaegers fight, hence the stone titans.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jul 15, 2022)

They're in the book, so he can't be accused-- at least in this case -- of making things up. And if you have a guy in charge whose idea of directing is to put everything on steroids, this is what you're going to get.


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## Aldarion (Jul 15, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> They're in the book, so he can't be accused-- at least in this case -- of making things up. And if you have a guy in charge whose idea of directing is to put everything on steroids, this is what you're going to get.


Aren't stone giants just trolls? In Croatian translations at least, words for giants (_divovi, orijaši_) is in different places used for ents and for trolls.

So yes, Jackson's stone giants are "only 99%" invented.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jul 15, 2022)

The Hobbit specifically calls them "stone-giants", so however various translations may render the words, they're differentiated from "trolls" in the original, where admittedly they're portrayed as playing a came of catch, rather than fighting.

Compare the similar sequence in LOTR, which makes The Hobbit's imagery more ambiguous, and open to "naturalistic" interpretation:


> They heard eerie noises in the darkness round them. It may have been only a trick of the wind in the cracks and gullies of the rocky wall, but the sounds were those of shrill cries, and wild howls of laughter. Stones began to fall from the mountain-side, whistling over their heads, or crashing on the path beside them. Every now and again they heard a dull rumble, as a great boulder rolled down from hidden heights above.





> 'We cannot go further tonight,' said Boromir. 'Let those call it the wind who will; there are fell voices on the air; and those stones are aimed at us.'


In any event, PJ didn't invent the sequence in the movie out of whole cloth; he just amped it up to 11, as he does everything.


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## d4rk3lf (Jul 15, 2022)

It's one thing when you have giants throwing and catching large stones. 
It's completely other thing, when you have the whole mountains in shape of the human, fights. 
That PJ interpretation was just crazy imho, and very unrealistic. 

And yeah.. he does like to invent (stupid) things that doesn't exist, like these giant Dune type worms at the battle of fife armies.


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## Annatar (Jul 15, 2022)

Radaghast said:


>


Aha, so now it's definitely and officially a pure sitcom series. This is probably the most ridiculous and hilarious "Arda" picture I've ever seen.
(Well almost. The antler guys are still in first place).

Here are a few more leaked images from Amazon's Numenor and Middle-earth:




















Did you also notice that the pseudo-hobbits waddle like penguins because of their oversized prosthetic feet.


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## Radaghast (Jul 15, 2022)

Those pics (in my post) have a distinct CW feel to them.


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## Annatar (Jul 15, 2022)

By the way, during my further research I discovered the secret of how the proto-Harfoots evolved from the humans. This here might be the very first specimen and thus the progenitor of all Harfoots:





Spoiler:
The first Haarfoot is the third from the left.


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## Annatar (Jul 15, 2022)

Annatar said:


> In the other, you see a few more nice looking snippets of Numenor and a couple of Elven cities in between confused action scenes. One of the Elven cities looks architecturally very similar to Peter Jackson's Rivendell, which I already found too cheesy at the time, especially since it also has nothing to do with Tolkien's own drawing. Still, the cities in this teaser are a small ray of hope. (We probably have John Howe to thank for that. So at least you can get some nice screenshots out of it as Tolkien inspired art.)


I have now watched the last trailer again in HD and paused more often. I have to say, if you don't see people (or only from a distance), these are indeed beautiful landscape shots and excellently designed CGI cities (seen from a distance or from above, the close-ups look cheap again). Detached from this series crap, these images could definitely be used as artistic accompaniment to the books:

This must be an Elven city, the only question is which one (click to enlarge):


Numenor:


Probably Tirion:


Wandering elves?


Numenor (confirmed):


Perhaps Mithlond?


Numenor:


Khazad-dum:


Maybe somewhere in Rhovanion?


Well, that might have been the best you can get out of the series...
And don't forget, Sauron also had a beautiful appearance at first.


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## Annatar (Jul 15, 2022)

So, enough with the short, escapist excursion into Tolkienesque realms.

Let's get back to the imbecility that is supposed to be presented to us here.
"Just Some Guy", a PoC by the way (sad that you have to emphasize that under certain circumstances these days), who has seen through all this very well and whom I agree with in everything concerning the series, sums up some plot holes well here:


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## d4rk3lf (Jul 15, 2022)

Annatar said:


> Well, that might have been the best you can get out of the series...
> And don't forget, Sauron also had a beautiful appearance at first.



Yeah, some of the environments are nice. 
But I can't believe, how majority of people just ignore to notice these utterly stupid and cheesy dialogs and monologues in the teaser. 
Even some hardcore Tolkien fans I see on youtube channels.


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## Radaghast (Jul 15, 2022)




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## Annatar (Jul 15, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> But I can't believe, how majority of people just ignore to notice these utterly stupid and cheesy dialogs and monologues in the teaser.


And the beautiful pictures will only make up 1-5% of the showtime, while the rest will be moronic babble or unintentionally funny characters and scenes that have nothing to do with Tolkien. 😂



d4rk3lf said:


> Even some hardcore Tolkien fans I see on youtube channels.


Well, some have definitely been bought or bribed, that's for sure.
Others hope to get more followers and ad revenue by jumping on the hype.
Others may indeed be pursuing the same political agenda, but that is likely to be the minority, because these people usually have no interest in Tolkien anyway. But I actually know a few people who used to be big Tolkien fans and now believe that his writings would be at least too conservative, if not racist, but in any case no longer sustainable in their original form and therefore must be urgently revised.
And another large part just lies to themselves and lives in a dream world where facts are denied and everything is glossed over as long as you ride what appears to be the mainstream wave... If the mainstream says it's good - who wants to be the bad guy who disagrees? This requires courage and an alert mind, as well as time. This is also not desired at all. You should consume what is offered to you and not question it. 😉


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## d4rk3lf (Jul 16, 2022)

Annatar said:


> But I actually know a few people who used to be big Tolkien fans and now believe that his writings would be at least too conservative, if not racist,



That's so wrong, that it starts to physically heart me. 
Tolkien was not a racist (and neither am I), and his work didn't touched the diversity stuff. 
If I crate a book, or a movie, about Chinese empire 3000 years a go, why the heck would I want white people, black, or Hispanic people in there? 
Youtube is full of black people that are Tolkien fans, and that publicly say over and over again, that they don't want to see black elves, numenorians, hobits or dwarfs (and kudos to these people). 

If Amazon really wanted to introduce black characters, they've could have done it pretty easily. 
Who better then Khamul the Ringwraith? 
He was easterling chieftain, and they could have made a plot where his daughter and wife are begging him not to take the ring, or not to use the ring, but he don't listen to them. 
OR, he could have taken the ring from Sauron in order to save life to his daughter or wife, and he succeed in saving their life, but he is condemned to serve the will of Sauron for a very long time. 
Or any similar option. 
And there you have it... Amazon.


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## HenryVIIII (Jul 16, 2022)

Aldarion said:


> Eh, the entire Hobbit trilogy is an example of that. Though I'm not certain how much of that is actually Jackson's fault - wasn't he brought in fairly late? I think del Torro worked on it previously... he might have wanted to have Jaegers fight, hence the stone titans.


He was writer-producer from the beginning. It was only directing he came into late. He certainly did not come in and have to direct someone else's script.


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## Annatar (Jul 16, 2022)

Annatar said:


> By the way, during my further research I discovered the secret of how the proto-Harfoots evolved from the humans. This here might be the very first specimen and thus the progenitor of all Harfoots:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, I know, many of you initially thought it was the second from the left.
But he's not a proto-Harfoot - it's good old Gand-Alf!






Many now think he landed by meteor at that time, but it was an UFO.


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## Gothmog (Jul 18, 2022)

Mr.Underhill said:


> <Removed>


Well, if you don't want to see the story done right then that is up to you. As for "Woke" that is just people being stupid. Now in terms of this " amazing trilogy LOTR" could you please point me in the direction of it as I can't seem to find it?

As for Amazon's attempt at Middle-earth, I have a very low expectation of it since what has been shown is not very inspiring. A beardless dwarf which makes it seem that they don't know much of Middle-earth or being "woke". Then we have Tu'vak of Vulcan, Elrond treating Galadriel like a child when she remembers the light of the two trees that died before he was born.


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## Mr.Underhill (Jul 18, 2022)

Gothmog said:


> Well, if you don't want to see the story done right then that is up to you. As for "Woke" that is just people being stupid. Now in terms of this " amazing trilogy LOTR" could you please point me in the direction of it as I can't seem to find it?
> 
> As for Amazon's attempt at Middle-earth, I have a very low expectation of it since what has been shown is not very inspiring. A beardless dwarf which makes it seem that they don't know much of Middle-earth or being "woke". Then we have Tu'vak of Vulcan, Elrond treating Galadriel like a child when she remembers the light of the two trees that died before he was born.



Well LOTR , the three first movies are the best. I dont think or would be hard to beat them interms of execution. Obviously getting right director to add faithful depiction to source material is important.

I am just saying i wouldnt die if it turns bad is all. One can just have new director after that whom may be better hopefully.


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## Gothmog (Jul 18, 2022)

Mr.Underhill said:


> Well LOTR , the three first movies are the best. I dont think or would be hard to beat them interms of execution. Obviously getting right director to add faithful depiction to source material is important.
> 
> I am just saying i wouldnt die if it turns bad is all. One can just have new director after that whom may be better hopefully.


Oh, you mean PJ's butchering of Tolkien's story about Hobbits and their part in the end of the Third-age?

I have little interest in Amazon's attempt to make a new Cash-Cow. I might watch some of it to answer some (not very well) burning questions but I expect that once more I will find myself saying, Good actors and actresses poor show.


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## Mr.Underhill (Jul 18, 2022)

Gothmog said:


> Oh, you mean PJ's butchering of Tolkien's story about Hobbits and their part in the end of the Third-age?
> 
> I have little interest in Amazon's attempt to make a new Cash-Cow. I might watch some of it to answer some (not very well) burning questions but I expect that once more I will find myself saying, Good actors and actresses poor show.


I mean if it fails i will just say "Well fun but not good", i have the DVD trilogy of LOTR. I saw Hobbit by Peter Jackson, and was disappointed with it. So thats probably what i will go with. If its good i will keep it, if its not so great i will just wait for something better

I for example think its a massive shame that LOTR cartoon didnt get to include Return of the King (which got delivered to another company and failed completely to capture what the Bakshi cartoon did with it) Because the Fellowship of the Ring and Two Towers was very striking and almost Diablo level of interesting movie!


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## Ealdwyn (Jul 18, 2022)




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## Annatar (Jul 18, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> View attachment 14520


UK version, if my Chrome extention is telling the truth (dislikes are probably rounded):

5,884 likes vs 27,000 dislikes

The US version now has

61,032 likes vs 201,000 dislikes

There seems to be something that fans don't like about Amazon's series. 🤣


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## Ealdwyn (Jul 18, 2022)

Annatar said:


> UK version, if my Chrome extention is telling the truth (dislikes are probably rounded):
> 
> 5,884 likes vs 27,000 dislikes
> 
> ...


The series? Or Amazon?


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## Gothmog (Jul 18, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> The series? Or Amazon?


Yes


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## Annatar (Jul 18, 2022)

Gothmog said:


> Then we have Tu'vak of Vulcan


Exactly! 😄



Gothmog said:


> Elrond treating Galadriel like a child when she remembers the light of the two trees that died before he was born.


Elrond apparently had the gift of foreseeing in the books. But not in the trailer, where he seems like a toxic know-it-all. Was that intended? 
Reinforce the portrayal of the strong, independent woman by juxtaposing her with a male jerk? Just as Amazon has already done incessantly with the deformed characters of Wheel of Time, where only the women have the inside track, and the men are generally portrayed as either evil or goofy...

This argument between teenage Galadriel and teenage Elrond is highly stupid anyway. Hopefully they don't already show their most profound dialogue in the trailer. 😆

By the way, on YouTube Elrond was already compared to Dougie Howser. 😂




vs.


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## d4rk3lf (Jul 18, 2022)

Annatar said:


> Exactly! 😄
> 
> 
> Elrond apparently had the gift of foreseeing in the books. But not in the trailer, where he seems like a toxic know-it-all. Was that intended?



The dialogue between "Elrond" and "Galadriel" was idiotic. 

Until recently, I though Peter Jackson is a master of pathetic dialogues, and crappy looking arguing between characters. 
But now, he got a very serious competition.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jul 18, 2022)

Let's try to keep the discussion to the series itself, and leave politics out of it.


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## Tar-Elenion (Jul 19, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> The dialogue between "Elrond" and "Galadriel" was idiotic.


Nuh unh!


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## Copia (Jul 19, 2022)

I am very positive to the show, and will be open minded(Yet still hurt from the Hobbit films). But I don't understand why they had to addmso much east of Mordor? I know they need to take some liberties straying from the books, but Tolkien's map...?


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## Erestor Arcamen (Jul 19, 2022)

Hi, just a reminder that one of the rules on TTF forbids real-world political discussion:



> The world is crappy enough and we at TTF strive to be politics-free. *Real-world politics (not related to ME) are not allowed, period*. This includes posting links to sites dedicated to the topic. Messages and links that contain this type of content may be edited or deleted at the discretion of TTF staff. If you would like to discuss real-world politics, please do it on sites dedicated to that type of content or via PM with other willing members.



As such, comments violating this rule have been removed. Continuing to violate this rule can and will lead to being banned from the Rings of Power forum and possibly The Tolkien Forum overall.

If you want to criticize the series fine. As I've said in previous comments, I don't see it as being very Tolkien-ish and don't think it will be that great either. 

If you don't like the series, it's really not a difficult concept to just turn it off/not watch it, or it shouldn't be. It's also not a difficult concept that we don't want political discussion on the site. The point of this forum is to discuss the series itself, not whether it's "woke," promoting feminism, or whether Amazon abuses its workers or not.


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## Elthir (Jul 19, 2022)

Tar-Elenion said:


> Nuh unh!



Yah huhh!


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jul 19, 2022)

Wha? 🤔


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## Radaghast (Jul 19, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> The dialogue between "Elrond" and "Galadriel" was idiotic.


Reminds me of the dialogue between Tauriel and Legolas.

L: "It's not our fight."

T: "It _is_ our fight."

So, so deep.


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## d4rk3lf (Jul 19, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> Reminds me of the dialogue between Tauriel and Legolas.
> 
> L: "It's not our fight."
> 
> ...


It reminds me on Lisa and Bart fight in the Simpsons: 
- Yes it is 
- No it isn't 
- Yes it is 
- no it isn't 
- Mooooooooooom!!!!


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## Elthir (Jul 19, 2022)

O: Look, if I *argue* with you, I must take up a contrary position!
M: Yes but it isn't just saying 'no it isn't'.
O: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!


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## Annatar (Jul 19, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> just a reminder that one of the rules on TTF forbids real-world political discussion


I try to accept this rule, however, I sometimes forget it in the heat of the moment. 😉 Basically, I would never start a political discussion here for no reason, and I absolutely agree with the rule that political opinions usually have no place here, since it should be about Tolkien and his works. 👍

But the problem with that Amazon series is that one of the main reasons why many people don't like it is that it is highly political, in a certain extreme direction. It will therefore be very difficult to exclude these points from a holistic discussion of the series. But well, I'll try to take it into account and will then just switch to other forums for these topics...

However, I must ask for the understanding of the enforcement of this rule again:

Basically, I think this rule as said for sense, but in discussions about that series it is in my opinion unavoidable, because:
In the end, we primarily list things here that contradict Tolkien and try to show possible reasons for it. And, after all, it makes perfect sense to talk (and speculate) about it. So why not make an exception here? Will you get into legal trouble otherwise or why this rigid implementation? Surely you also attach great importance to Tolkien not having to rotate in his grave with rage.
This is basically a very nice forum, but at this point I don't get the deeper meaning of censoring my rather innocuous post, unless you consider this one rule not context sensitive but God-given. As long as etiquette is respected and nobody insults other users because of their political opinion, a comprehensive discussion even about politically motivated Tolkien adaptations should be reasonable and possible.
My censored post only attacked Amazon and the series producers. As far as I know, you don't owe them anything?

I am only interested in criticizing the series creators and Amazon when they trample Tolkien's works and the reasons for their deviations are not respectable or comprehensible. You know that by now, and that should not be censored in my opinion. It also annoys me when I write a longer post that is then simply deleted, even though it was harmless in principle, but may have violated an age-old rule that makes perfect sense in other contexts, but just not here. So you also scare away some of your users. Well, maybe less work for you then, but then it also remains boring 😉
A compromise suggestion would be a subforum or maybe just a single thread, where such discussions are allowed for a given occasion (of course, as long as it remains civilized). So, dear moderators, think about it. It would be really necessary and reasonable, especially if you want to remain politically neutral yourself.

Edit: And yes, of course, if you want to make it easy on yourself, you can delete this posting as well and ban me, but then at least your political motivation is clear to me and there would be no reason for me to show up here anymore anyway. (Halasian would be very happy of course. 🤣 )


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## Annatar (Jul 19, 2022)

As you can also see here, political, religious and philosophical themes merge for me:









Amazon is mutating Tolkien's vision of Middle Earth


I've come to think that we need an opposite thread where we list where Amazon stays true to the books. That is by far less effort.




www.thetolkienforum.com





Of course, you can also delete it, since religion is just as sensitive as politics.

In any case, I find these topics the most interesting and motivating.
If this is not wanted here - let me know - then I'm gone. Then this forum is too superficial, because it wants to be a safe space for everyone - which is the opposite of the sense of a real discussion forum - and unfortunately no longer makes sense in the context of this series...

So outside of the sub-forums that are purely about book content, I think there should be a more free and open spirit of discussion.
I would be happy if you would see this suggestion as an opportunity...


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## Annatar (Jul 19, 2022)

Halasían said:


> Actually I don't really care one way or another. It wouldn't make much of a difference to me other than I'd just have less things to laugh at when I do visit this forum on this site.


😂 😂 😂

Yes, I've long wondered how a true Tolkien fan can laugh at someone criticizing an obviously miserable adaptation for deliberately deviating essentially from Tolkien's works for reasons that are incomprehensible.
Shame on you! You've never provided any real arguments so far, and have only ever been insulting on a personal level or handing out emojies expressing your disdain. You should be censored here most likely in my opinion, because you NEVER provide any arguments, but only distribute subtle insults on a personal level - and you can only allow yourself to do that because you seem to be a long time member and moderator buddy. Congratulations!

But maybe it's all just a big misunderstanding?
So explain to me why you're still defending this Amazon series so much - the trailers released so far leave no doubt about the direction it's going to take. So far I have tried to give a comprehensive and objective reflection on the basis of Tolkien's works and I have also named some things that I find good. So why your exrtremistic counter-position? Are you a troll or paid by Amazon?

Anyway, I always try to argue from Tolkien's writings, no matter if I myself stand behind them or not. (Unless it's about cats - there I'm definitely against what is common knowledge, but see the corresponding thread here, where I provide good cat arguments... 😁 I think this topic should be discussed much more and much more seriously!).
So please: This series is actually completely unimportant, let's rather talk about cats! 😉


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## Annatar (Jul 21, 2022)

Halasían said:


> I have been censured here many times especially when it comes to The Rings of Power


I think I even noticed that once. Everything will have had its good reasons - in that case. 😆



Halasían said:


> I used to have a tagline back in the day as being 'an equal-opportunity irritant' so my emoji'ng and such is nothing new.


Yes, these "equal-opportunity irritants" are the greatest evil of our time. You are still very harmless in this respect, I know much more penetrating types, although on the other hand I do not know what nonsense of yours has already been deleted again.



Halasían said:


> I used to enjoy roleplaying here, and I used to enjoy writing fanfic here


That would also explain your penchant for adaptations that look like bad role-playing and fan fiction. 😄
And yes, writing your fanfiction stories and chatting with your old acquaintances, I don't think anyone will mind, and of course I wish you a lot of fun here too. Although I will probably never read your fanfiction. 😉

Anyway, I won't accept your one and only pseudo-argument that you can't judge anything before the first episode (and there you are even supported by Erestor Arcamen), because we already have so, so much input that it's very, very clear where the journey is going.

But how will you feel when the first three episodes are out? Everything we've already seen will be confirmed:
- The CGI graphics, cities and landscapes will look great. (Yes, I have always named the positive things as well.)
- The soundtrack will probably be good. (If Shore doesn't put in too many flutes. 😉)
- It will be a generic fantasy series that misuses the name Tolkien only for marketing purposes and in many ways contradicts the literary template of The Sil, UT etc.
- One will wonder why so much looks so cheap and so unintentionally comical with such a gigantic budget.
- At least 75% of the plot will be fictitious or distorted.
- The political and modern allusions or even reinterpretations and character changes will be unmistakable, which will not help immersion in any case.
- The dialogues will most likely be poor, cheesy and lack depth. Even embarrassing, judging by the last trailer. Well, maybe I will be positively surprised here, but we'll see.
- The plot may appeal to you if you've never read any of Tolkien's works beyond the Lord of the Rings or Hobbit, because otherwise you'd go insane simply because of the time compression from 1800 years to a minimal time period and due to many other sacrileges..
- and so on

And, of course, there might be also a few other things that will surprise us in a positive way. And I will name them - if I can hold out that long. But I'm tough and I've watched all of PJ's films and the cartoons before that. Even the Russian adaptation in part! 😁

But I know, you don't really want to defend the show anyway, you just want to annoy certain people who have seen through certain things. And make fun of people for whom Tolkien's works are more important than for you:



Halasían said:


> Me, I'm going to watch it and enjoy it for what it is, not bolt-count, or repeatedly carry on how 'it isn't Tolkien'


🤣😆 Yeah, that's exactly the kind of statement I would expect to hear in a random movie or Disney or Netflix forum. On www.thetolkienforum.com it's absolutely ridiculous - you must be laughing yourself.

Edit: Oh yes: And anyone who takes it a bit more seriously than you do about book loyalty is of course a "toxic fan". I've just seen your article... And that's nothing new for me, we've been constantly bombarded with that kind of framing at least since the last Star Wars trilogy.🙄
The people labeled "toxic fans" by this kind of media (or so called experts) are 99% normal people who simply don't want their favorite hobby distorted and defaced. Radical exceptions are singled out in order to put other people who make legitimate arguments in a certain, extremist corner, so that you don't have to deal with their arguments anymore. Unfortunately, we are in a culture war, but I won't elaborate further or it will become too political again for the moderators. 😉 

But I have a nice picture from John Carpenter's "They Live" for you:


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## Annatar (Jul 21, 2022)

Halasían:


> I discuss all those things in a civil manner in a very nice group elsewhere. Don't see a pount trying to discuss them here.
> I really don't give a crap what you think *Anal*. I just have to laugh at the fact that I occupy so much of your time as you *GFYS*.



A very civil manner! 😂 Interesting that people who reply with such a choice of words are not banned, but other people who may have an uncomfortable and non-compliant opinion are threatened with banishment. That certainly makes me think.

Edit: At least the posting seems to have disappeared again.
I have read it anyway. Pathetic.

Edit edit: Still, of course I don't want you to get banned. But I also do not want double standards.


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## Annatar (Jul 21, 2022)

By the way, you should realize that if you deface my nickname, you're not insulting me, you're insulting Tolkien.

Edit: Are you actually censoring yourself now by deleting your own posts? 😂 👍


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## Annatar (Jul 21, 2022)

Halasían said:


> I'm done. It's all yours.


I think it's a shame that you don't respond to arguments, but get personal, and then delete everything. 
Well, see you in the fan fiction thread - or not.


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## Annatar (Jul 21, 2022)

Halasían said:


> If anyone insults Tolkien here, it is you using the name.


Well, I'm talking about J.R.R. Tolkien, not Simon Tolkien.
And to get back on topic, here's a video from a forum where you seem to have already been banned.
Among other things, it is about Simon Tolkien's involvement with the series.
(Now it may finally become interesting again for people who want to learn about that show.)


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## d4rk3lf (Jul 22, 2022)

New trailer.


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## Annatar (Jul 22, 2022)

Ah, Eminem is also playing. 

And they seem to have copied that Balrog scene from PJ's "Fellowship" right at the end.


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## d4rk3lf (Jul 22, 2022)

When I watched Game of Thrones, it always look weird to me Little-finger appearance.
A dark, tall man, almost always dressed in black, and he constantly whisper when talking,... all in all... very shady appearance.
And yet, somehow all characters blindly listened to him, and did what he said, and wanted. 
It broke my suspension of disbelief. 

Amazon seems to go one step further. 
This character appearance (Sauron) screams EVIL. 
Yet, man and elves are supposed to trust this guy and follow his guidance? 
I really hope that this is not Sauron look when he deceives.


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## CirdanLinweilin (Jul 22, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> New trailer.


Will the real Dark Lord please stand up?


CL


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## Berzelmayr (Jul 23, 2022)

So according to Fellowship of Fans, the person in this trailer is not Sauron/Annatar:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1550604215042842624


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## d4rk3lf (Jul 23, 2022)

Berzelmayr said:


> So according to Fellowship of Fans, the person in this trailer is not Sauron/Annatar:



Yup. 
I am seeing these rumor's all over the internet now, about that. 

And I really hope it's true


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## CirdanLinweilin (Jul 23, 2022)

Berzelmayr said:


> So according to Fellowship of Fans, the person in this trailer is not Sauron/Annatar:
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1550604215042842624


Their scoop is that Anson Boon, is playing Annatar but that is not confirmed.





CL


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## Berzelmayr (Jul 24, 2022)




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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Jul 24, 2022)

CirdanLinweilin said:


> Will the real Dark Lord please stand up?
> 
> 
> CL


Thanks for sharing. In accuracy it miserably fails, but in cinematics it actually seems strangely well-done. It might at least be interesting to watch, while I know it would not be very true to Tolkien, but since I know the Second Age near as well as I can, it wouldn't hurt to see someone else's vision.


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## Annatar (Jul 25, 2022)




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## Aldarion (Jul 25, 2022)

Annatar said:


>


Wait, so they basically copy-pasted a balrog from LotR into RoP?

That is a new low, even for them.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Jul 25, 2022)

Aldarion said:


> Wait, so they basically copy-pasted a balrog from LotR into RoP?
> 
> That is a new low, even for them.


I never altogether loved the Balrog portrayal in The Lord of the Rings films, and I wondered if they would do things differently in RoP and how, apparently, they won't be.


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## TrollinSun (Jul 26, 2022)

Annatar said:


> That would also explain your penchant for adaptations that look like bad role-playing and fan fiction.


Haven't been on the forum for a while due to posts about RoP being banned discussing the politics of the show and not my personal beliefs. Read this thread and laughed out loud at your retorts to Halasian. I'd buy you a tall mug of brown beer at the prancing pony.


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## Halasían (Jul 26, 2022)

TrollinSun said:


> Haven't been on the forum for a while due to posts about RoP being banned discussing the politics of the show and not my personal beliefs. Read this thread and laughed out loud at your retorts to Halasian. I'd buy you a tall mug of brown beer at the prancing pony.


Have at it CJs.


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## Annatar (Jul 28, 2022)

It's going to be the most expensive series ever (still wondering why), and someone has to pay for it, of course:



> Amazon is increasing its Prime membership subscription prices across Europe in September by up to 43% a year


A funny coincidence that September is also the start of the series.









Amazon to Increase Prime Membership Fee By Up to 43% for Customers in Europe


Amazon is increasing its Prime membership subscription prices across Europe in September by up to 43% a year, the company has announced just days...




www.macrumors.com


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## d4rk3lf (Jul 28, 2022)

Annatar said:


> Amazon is increasing its Prime membership subscription prices across Europe in September by up to 43% a year


Oh wow. 

If series turns out to be bad, they won't be shooting in their leg, but will shoot directly in head.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Jul 28, 2022)

Everyone sources their money from somewhere, obviously.

My suspicion is that the horses, riders, trainers, actors, and directors are what is making this so expensive-- not to mention the swords and extremely elaborate costuming. It all adds up. I don't think a lot of people actually understand how hard it is to replicate and depict scenes from Tolkien's Middle-Earth. The land lay-out is not that complex, as Middle-Earth is our world, just ages ago. However, some sets such as that of Elves, and pretty much any kingdom or set that is not just pure and genuine nature, are extremely pricy and difficult to make. Especially Elves, as they have an ethereal quality to everything that they make and live in and enjoy, and even just their own appearance, and so that is complicated to portray. And when you add to that the need for weapons, and costuming, and live horses, and all of the computer effects, writers, music, etc. projects like these can become EXTREMELY expensive-- which is why there just isn't that much Tolkien media, a bit unfortunate, as some of my Tolkien-loving-friends were introduced to Tolkien through the movies, and were led to the books, and now have become well-accustomed to both, but attribute their love of Tolkien solely to the movies which gave them a quick-start, and tell me that there is just no way they would have picked up Tolkien, read it, or enjoyed it if they had not first seen the story through the movies. This is why I think there is certainly a place for Tolkien-themed media.

After seeing the trailers of The Rings of Power, the costuming is superbly well-done. Now, not all of it is like how I would imagine yet seeing Tolkien's incredible characters through the eyes of someone else is not always a bad thing. I have my own ideas composed, and so I can look at artwork of them and watch films. My own portrayals are already kept, and some of them have surfaced to the sketch book. 

The Rings of Power of course falls short in accuracy-- but I have come to the conclusion that no one will ever fully capture every detail and piece of beauty as Tolkien has in his works, and I have learned to stop making those expectations, because it will just disappoint me when another movie, film, or series fails to capture everything that Tolkien did, and left out or changed story elements that I thought to be crucial. Of course, I have my opinions on what should have been kept-- but in the end, they are just that; opinions. Neither wrong, nor right, just preference.

I have honestly been impressed with what I have seen yet as far as costuming, sets, and cinematography-- which in the end, is really the main points since I know it won't be a direct depiction of Tolkien's works, and it won't capture all the beauty he did, so I judge it from the perspective of a story built off of and into Tolkien's works and enjoy it for that, instead of criticizing it with book in hand, pointing out everything it failed at.


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## Annatar (Jul 28, 2022)

This is madness! 😂

I would not have expected this assessment from you. 😉



Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> I have honestly been impressed with what I have seen yet as far as costuming, sets, and cinematography


Thank you for your detailed consideration. However, I find some aspects of it rather superficial and odd.
Admittedly, the CGI cities and the New Zealand landscapes are impressive.
(From season 2 on, it's supposed to go rather to Scotland - which may be a pity for many PJ's fans, but I'm rather in favor of it, but anyway, that only plays a minor role, and this decision also had rather practical reasons).

Okay, that CGI look - inspired by John Howe - was, after all, the minimum that could be expected, and that still only accounts for a maximum of 5% of the series' relevance. Everything else, if you look at the trailers - was already done better 20 years earlier with worse technology.

Away from any political ideology (although you can find it penetratingly there, but according to the forum rules this is not allowed to be discussed here):
I find the costumes cheap and kind of funny: you can see, for example, how Miriel's scale armor ripples under the armpit like a t-shirt. Also, all those strangely modern-looking short hairstyles destroy any immersion. And I find all the dialogue or monologues in the trailers extremely awkward. I find the pseudo hobbits beyond embarrassing and extremely against canon. I find the demeanor of the actors and producers during interviews arrogant and lacking respect for Tolkien. I find Amazon's marketing so far to be completely stupid.
Anyway, I will have to watch the first episodes anyway, as a Tolkien fan. But one thing is already clear: I will avoid paying money to Amazon for this outrage in the future.

This series is absolutely designed to further divide people, and this is already working excellently in advance....
This is probably where the wheat is to be separated from the chaff. 😂

In the end, I would like to remind you that the best seasons of Game of Thrones were the first ones, even though they had the lowest budget. But they were faithful to the books and had used the limited budget intelligently for the right things. No matter what you think of Game of Thrones in principle.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jul 28, 2022)

Annatar said:


> Away from any political ideology (although you can find it penetratingly there,


Some people seem to "find" political ideology everywhere they look, for some odd reason. 



Annatar said:


> This is madness! 😂


Madness?


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Jul 29, 2022)

Annatar said:


> This is madness! 😂
> 
> I would not have expected this assessment from you. 😉
> 
> ...


I know it is a rather uncommon opinion in these days-- but having seen the trailer, and not having seen the series actual episodes, this indeed stands as my opinion.

I find the sets as far as nature and cities, extremely impressive-- as you do. They are superbly well done, and while I have my own ideas of what it should look like, it is just a personal preference, more bound to my detailed imagination than to most anything else. The maps also seem to be well depicted, and though I haven't seen many props-- I am so far sufficiently pleased, as everything has reached my expectations. I am also not opposed to the idea of Scotland. I think it sounds wonderful-- and having a set somewhere else than New Zealand would be an excellent addition to the current Tolkien-based media.

As for political references or agendas, I will of course not state these either, but I will say that one must peer deep into the trailer to find them.

The costuming is elaborate. It is not necessarily the most accurate, nor is it the highest quality, but it is elaborate and eye-catching which makes for a thrilling trailer that I have enjoyed seeing. The Hobbits in it disturb me too. To me, they just didn't have to be there, and the fact that they are, is bothersome.

I haven't disliked the marketing. It seems fine. The trailer is as I stated, very well done, and enjoyable to watch for me. I will note however that the prime logo at the end completely deflates whatever excitement was awoken by the trailer. But it does remind one that it is a show, and not a true story, not a history, not Tolkien-- sadly.

But from the right perspective, of not expecting another Tolkien-- it is a fine series as I have so far seen.

I may be an odd member, but I have never seen Game of Thrones. I am purely a Tolkien-fan, for most parts, and little do I watch or read save for things based on him or his works, and extremely old literature that Tolkien would have read growing up, and at Oxford.

So on that I honestly cannot make a comment.


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## Halasían (Jul 29, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> I know it is a rather uncommon opinion in these days-- but having seen the trailer, and not having seen the series actual episodes, this indeed stands as my opinion.
> 
> I find the sets as far as nature and cities, extremely impressive-- as you do. They are superbly well done, and while I have my own ideas of what it should look like, it is just a personal preference, more bound to my detailed imagination than to most anything else. The maps also seem to be well depicted, and though I haven't seen many props-- I am so far sufficiently pleased, as everything has reached my expectations. I am also not opposed to the idea of Scotland. I think it sounds wonderful-- and having a set somewhere else than New Zealand would be an excellent addition to the current Tolkien-based media.
> 
> ...


Good assessment! It is stated early in the trailer that it is _'based on the works of J.R.R. Tolkien'_ which it clearly is, and doesn't appear to attempt to sell it as otherwise. It was well done, and I myself actually am looking forward to seeing the series now.


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## d4rk3lf (Jul 29, 2022)

I think series won't be total disaster as many expect, and more of the hit and miss, stuff. 
Will give it a chance, of course, although, I must say that trailers so far brought very mixed felling's, at best. 

What I dislike about all this, is that many is taking PJ Lotr as cannon, and he made many mistakes in the movies.


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## Halasían (Jul 29, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> What I dislike about all this, is that many is taking PJ Lotr as cannon, and he made many mistakes in the movies.


Yeah, there are a lot of PJ Purists out there.


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## Gothmog (Jul 29, 2022)

Halasían said:


> Yeah, there are a lot of PJ Purists out there.


PJ and Purist in the same sentence. 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣


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## Halasían (Jul 29, 2022)

Gothmog said:


> PJ and Purist in the same sentence. 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣


PJ Purists - Those who take Peter Jackson' depiction of Middle Earth and the Lord of the Rings story as canon. Having fun with them over on a facebook group. They tend to CJ with the Gatekeepers and the WBS cliques there. 🤣


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## Bahnz (Aug 1, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> I never altogether loved the Balrog portrayal in The Lord of the Rings films, and I wondered if they would do things differently in RoP and how, apparently, they won't be.


Not surprised given that John Howe is working on the show and both depictions are basically straight out of one of his paintings.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 1, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Middle-Earth is our world, just ages ago.


I thought as much...

That would mean the Valar _are_ here - just...not intervening, as usual, but always watching over this Ea. Ai, no wonder they have been forgotten by most!

I would say the Maiar, being naturally amongst the Ainur themselves, would be most likely to seek the aid and Grace of the Valar in Middle-Earth, outside of fair Aman. The Eldalie already departed for Aman at the end of the Third Age (time truly does fly indeed!), and the Edain? Well, they just depart the circles of the World soon enough...

_I mean, it is the Seventh Age already now, isn't it? Even till now, Aman truly seems to be hidden, at least to me..._


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 1, 2022)

Bahnz said:


> Not surprised given that John Howe is working on the show and both depictions are basically straight out of one of his paintings.


Amazon haters: "They’re not being true to the movies!"

Also Amazon haters: "They’re copying the movies!"


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 1, 2022)

I can only say:

_Don't judge a book by its cover, and don't judge a film by its trailer. Námo's not here, so why bother?_


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 2, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> I thought as much...
> 
> That would mean the Valar _are_ here - just...not intervening, as usual, but always watching over this Ea. Ai, no wonder they have been forgotten by most!
> 
> ...


_Hidden indeed, but ne'er lost. Recall ever the words of perpetual presence and love._


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## d4rk3lf (Aug 3, 2022)




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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 3, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


>


Is this from The Rings of Power or is it a review?


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 3, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Is this from The Rings of Power or is it a review?


It might have been in the RoP trailer, though I am not sure. I suppose one could always look at it again...


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 3, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> It might have been in the RoP trailer, though I am not sure. I suppose one could always look at it again...


Appreciated-- I may just.


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## d4rk3lf (Aug 4, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Is this from The Rings of Power or is it a review?


It's just basically a commercial, where they show sets, little bit of interviews, info, and some new shots.


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## Halasían (Aug 4, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Is this from The Rings of Power or is it a review?


It's an ad for the Rings of Power. I have high hopes there won't be any 'modern' PJisms in this series (meat-on-menus, etc.).


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## d4rk3lf (Aug 4, 2022)

Halasían said:


> It's an ad for the Rings of Power. I have high hopes there won't be any 'modern' PJisms in this series (meat-on-menus, etc.).



Galadriel: I am going to Numenor. 
Elrond: Why nor simply send them e-mail?


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 4, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> Galadriel: I am going to Numenor.
> Elrond: Why nor simply send them e-mail?


This is funny! Perhaps the Eagles could deliver such news? 
It is basically the same topic.


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## Berzelmayr (Aug 4, 2022)

Halasían said:


> It's an ad for the Rings of Power. I have high hopes there won't be any 'modern' PJisms in this series (meat-on-menus, etc.).




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1554678568524943361


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## Halasían (Aug 5, 2022)

Berzelmayr said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1554678568524943361


I dont got time for dat.

Basically, unless its a music video, I don't watch the various media shares.


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## d4rk3lf (Aug 5, 2022)

Some random clip leaked.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 5, 2022)

Only if you consider Stephen Colbert a "leaker". 😄

It was shown on national TV, just before his interview with Morfydd:







Halasían said:


> I dont got time for dat.


Four seconds?! 😅


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## d4rk3lf (Aug 5, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Only if you consider Stephen Colbert a "leaker". 😄
> It was shown on national TV, just before his interview with Morfydd:


Yup. 
Apologies, I though it was leaked, then I realized mistake. 

Either way,. nice to see this, and it doesn't look too bad for me, with exception of male elf acting (that I think was pretty bad).


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 5, 2022)

Halasían said:


> I dont got time for dat.


For 4 seconds? Get a bit of Bree Proper Ale while you watch it. Go ahead. Indulge.


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## Annatar (Aug 7, 2022)

Some more cringe moments:


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 7, 2022)

Annatar said:


> Some more cringe moments:


Should be interesting. Thanks for the link.


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## Annatar (Aug 7, 2022)

Berzelmayr said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1554678568524943361


I'm also already very much looking forward to more physically impossible video game scenes that will completely eclipse PJ Legolas.




d4rk3lf said:


> Some random clip leaked.


Of course, I'm also looking forward to CSI-Indiana-Jones-Galadriel with her dumb assistant, who doesn't look like an elf at all, but instead exemplarily portrays men as fools once again, as is so common in modern series. Yeah... Men are just so dorky. 😃 👍
How do you say that in English? Can I call him a "goofy gofer"? (In any case, alliteration always sounds good.)



Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Should be interesting. Thanks for the link.


Yeah, I just did some more research too, but Mel Brooks still seems to be alive?

Basically I think it's all very cool, I just wish Galadriel had an even longer sword.


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## Radaghast (Aug 7, 2022)

Annatar said:


> Some more cringe moments:


I don't get how they'd have any expectation that people would be excited about this


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## Annatar (Aug 7, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> I don't get how they'd have any expectation that people would be excited about this


Well, the music in the background is admittedly pretty groovy. Not as modern as the messages in the series, but I kind of like this sound. But I also like the 70s (in the retro version, where only the highlights count). What all this has to do with Middle-earth? No idea. But that's not the point anymore.



Annatar said:


> the 70s



By the way, my further investigative research has revealed that the series Celebrimbor is actually *Commander Cain from the original (1978–79) Battlestar Galactica series*:






vs.













Unfortunately, there is no doubt at all, as everyone can see.

Malicious tongues claim there are also some parallels to Lloyd Bridges' role in Hot Shots?






(That being said, I highly recommend the 2003 re-release of the BSG series.)


Unfortunately, there seem to be mostly quite old white men in this forum, so I'm surprised that nobody has noticed this yet...

Here you can see Lloyd in even more Middle-earth roles:

Lloyd Bridges as Bilbo Baggins in a very early non-animated version, while he's negotiating a deal with Thorin Oakenshield:





Lloyd Bridges as a civilized Gollum in the musical version of The Hobbit:





Lloyd Bridges as Gandalf the Rustic during the difficult times of the Cold War, when he had to play Santa Claus for many needy people at the same time:





This role was later reinterpreted by his son Jeff Bridges after he became bowling world champion and thus had the means to provide many needy people with small but very loving gifts at Christmas time:




After all, almost everyone appreciates how legendary his statements were back then, such as "Take it easy, man!" or "Let's go bowling!"
Who doesn't still remember them fondly today, especially when it comes to bowling?


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 8, 2022)

Annatar said:


> By the way, my further investigative research has revealed that the series Celebrimbor is actually *Commander Cain from the original (1978–79) Battlestar Galactica series*:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I appreciate this post very much. The info is wonderful. Thanks.


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## Halasían (Aug 8, 2022)

I see things are back to normal here.


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## d4rk3lf (Aug 8, 2022)

LOL
This is why last 10-15 years movies (and some series) are so bad, and why don't we have a movies anymore like Shawshank Redemption, Forest Gump, Green Mile, Back to the future, Braveheart...
They said, LOTR will have like 9500 effects, and because of that it will be better then Wheel of Time or Witcher... really? 
Are they serious? 
Is that all that matters? 
How about story, character development, cinematography, acting???


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## Ealdwyn (Aug 8, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> How about story, character development, cinematography, acting???


Exactly


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 8, 2022)

Maybe that will be seen when it actually starts.

But don't let that stop you. 😅


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 8, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> How about story, character development, cinematography, acting???


In fairness, very little of this have we seen.... The trailer is well-done.


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## Annatar (Aug 9, 2022)

Annatar said:


> Some more cringe moments:



Now it's finally clear what this strange video was about.
Here is the missing text:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1555575790430978048


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 9, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> The trailer is well-done.


Finally! Beyond the confines of Time and foreseen Memory! Indeed, there is one who sayeth this, and I thank thee!


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## Gothmog (Aug 9, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> View attachment 14891
> 
> LOL
> This is why last 10-15 years movies (and some series) are so bad, and why don't we have a movies anymore like Shawshank Redemption, Forest Gump, Green Mile, Back to the future, Braveheart...
> ...


So, in other words it is a moderised version of Fantasia!


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## Annatar (Aug 9, 2022)

Annatar said:


> Now it's finally clear what this strange video was about.
> Here is the missing text:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1555575790430978048



Alternatively:


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 9, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> Finally! Beyond the confines of Time and foreseen Memory! Indeed, there is one who sayeth this, and I thank thee!


Of course, I am glad to say it.


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## Annatar (Aug 9, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Of course, I am glad to say it.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 9, 2022)




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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 9, 2022)

Annatar said:


>


Have your time of laughter, but we all saw the trailer... It was superbly well-done. I, am hopeful.


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## Copia (Aug 10, 2022)

Anyone else listens to The Prancing Pony podcast?
Well they have a new one about the TV show. They are highly knowledgeable about Tolkien and is as much worries as «us» about the show, but like me they seem kinda optimistic(yes we all know some things will be bad).

well the really cool thing is that they have met the directors and they are actually big Tolkien fan. From what I understood they were(at leasy one of them)reading the books before the movies, and not only LOTR but everything from The Hobbit to Tolkiens letters. They seem to understand the core of the original, and the themes of Tolkien.
Now Im not saying this will make the show 100% true to the books, but it gives me confident in knowing they highly respect and admire Tolkien.

The podcast is callee The Rings Of Power Wrap-up.
On a side note I reccomend their original podcast


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 10, 2022)

Copia said:


> Anyone else listens to The Prancing Pony podcast?
> Well they have a new one about the TV show. They are highly knowledgeable about Tolkien and is as much worries as «us» about the show, but like me they seem kinda optimistic(yes we all know some things will be bad).
> 
> well the really cool thing is that they have met the directors and they are actually big Tolkien fan. From what I understood they were(at leasy one of them)reading the books before the movies, and not only LOTR but everything from The Hobbit to Tolkiens lettere. They seem to understand the core or the original, and the themes of Tolkien.
> ...


Thanks for sharing! I haven't listened to them, but now I will.. What are they on? 

Glad to hear this about the show-- it rekindles Hope.


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## Copia (Aug 10, 2022)

I listen on Spotify. But Im sure they are on most podcast platforms


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 10, 2022)

Copia said:


> I listen on Spotify. But Im sure they are on most podcast platforms


Wonderful! Thank you for sharing! I will have to check it out.


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## Copia (Aug 10, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Wonderful! Thank you for sharing! I will have to check it out.


Great!


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 10, 2022)

Copia said:


> Great!


Thanks! I'm trying to remember to "Like" posts lately. Others on this Forum are vigilant about it, but I often forget, so sorry if I do not.


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## Copia (Aug 10, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Thanks! I'm trying to remember to "Like" posts lately. Others on this Forum are vigilant about it, but I often forget, so sorry if I do not.


Same here  No worries  !


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 10, 2022)

Copia said:


> Same here  No worries  !


Good! Glad I am not alone!


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## Gothmog (Aug 10, 2022)

Copia said:


> Anyone else listens to The Prancing Pony podcast?
> Well they have a new one about the TV show. They are highly knowledgeable about Tolkien and is as much worries as «us» about the show, but like me they seem kinda optimistic(yes we all know some things will be bad).
> 
> well the really cool thing is that they have met the directors and they are actually big Tolkien fan. From what I understood they were(at leasy one of them)reading the books before the movies, and not only LOTR but everything from The Hobbit to Tolkiens letters. They seem to understand the core of the original, and the themes of Tolkien.
> ...


Ah yes, the Great Tolkien Fan Director. Just like PJ reading everything Tolkien and then giving us the twisted LotR and mangled Hobbit. Inspires much trust.


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## Radaghast (Aug 10, 2022)




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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 10, 2022)

Radaghast said:


>


Wait-- is this criticizing it, or praising it?


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## d4rk3lf (Aug 10, 2022)

Copia said:


> Now Im not saying this will make the show 100% true to the books, but it gives me confident in knowing they highly respect and admire Tolkien.



It was never about creating movies or series 100% true to the books. 
Rarely anyone expect that (even the hardcore fans). 

The problem is, when you create something from Tolkien works, and it looks just plain stupid. 
If you strip out the fantastic visuals that Weta created for PJ LOTR movies, you will get very flat characters, unnecessary conflicts (that just look stupid) between characters, very pathetic looking drama scenes (with overused slow motion), characters that are totally opposite then in the books (example: Gandalf, that is always weak and tired, as opposed to the book Gandals that is always strong, charismatic and energetic). 

The thing I never understudy is this: 
You wanna action movie LOTR? 
Fine. 
Take Steven Spielberg, take James Cameron, take Mel Gibson as a director... these people know how to create these kind of movies, and they know how to create emotional scenes, and how to drive characters. 

As I said previously, the saddest thing for me about this show, is that people would be actually happy if it replicated PJ LOTR, because majority doesn't see beyond nice visuals.... 

I will give this show a chance, for sure, but from my part, I REALLY hope to see some clever dialogue, nice developed characters, nicely done dramatic or emotional scenes... but from what I saw in trailers so far (especially dialogues), I am really scared.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 10, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> It was never about creating movies or series 100% true to the books.
> Rarely anyone expect that (even the hardcore fans).


This, I can certainly agree with-- as I think that doing that would quite literally be impossible.


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## Radaghast (Aug 11, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Wait-- is this criticizing it, or praising it?


Very strongly criticizing it. That YouTuber is a very vocal critic of RoP.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 11, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> Very strongly criticizing it. That YouTuber is a very vocal critic of RoP.


_Hath there been no Hope left? Shall all be doomed ere it come to pass?_


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 11, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> Very strongly criticizing it. That YouTuber is a very vocal critic of RoP.


I see. I didn't watch it actually, so I wanted to know it's general theme first. It probably isn't worth it.


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## Radaghast (Aug 11, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> _Hath there been no Hope left? Shall all be doomed ere it come to pass?_


We already know there are characters in the show that aren't from Tolkien and that it tells of events Tolkien never wrote about. Nobody is criticizing the show sight unseen. Between the trailers and the "influencers" hired by Amazon we've seen plenty to form an idea of where the show is going. Some of us are not interested in the "novel Tolkien never wrote."


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 11, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> We already know there are characters in the show that aren't from Tolkien and that it tells of events Tolkien never wrote about. Nobody is criticizing the show sight unseen. Between the trailers and the "influencers" hired by Amazon we've seen plenty to form an idea of where the show is going. Some of us are not interested in the "novel Tolkien never wrote."


That is fair-- but no one can truly shape an opinion before seeing it.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 11, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> before seeing it.


That is exactly what I meant when I said "ere it come to pass".


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## Radaghast (Aug 11, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> That is fair-- but no one can truly shape an opinion before seeing it.


I respectfully disagree. Amazon is releasing trailers just for that very purpose. Heck, trailers, for movies and TV shows, are released with the hope that people will like what they see. People then form opinions, good or bad, on whether they want to see them. Obviously, the studios releasing the product would like the reactions to be favorable.

But the reaction Amazon is getting for RoP is not the one they hoped for, despite their best attempts to influence public opinion and their deletion of negative comments on YouTube.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 11, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> I respectfully disagree.


I appreciate your respectfulness on this. Disagreements are fine but bickering gets chaotic and childish. I respectfully disagree with you also, and maybe we can just leave it there.


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## Nacilme Mapare (Aug 11, 2022)

Radaghast said:


>


This video, at least in parts, is giving me the chills. The showrunners don't even try to hide the fact that all they were looking for was but a cash-cow to milk. Sad, to say the least.

Regardless of what I personally think about this show and the producer's choices of casting and script adaptation (though, in short, I agree with most of the points Disparu makes in this video), what _really_ bugs me is that they are so blatantly using Tolkien's comprehensive work as a mere _tool_ in order to push their own political agenda along. Especially in such a blatant "in your faces" kind of way.

If they could at least give good explanations for their choices that made sense within the context of Tolkien's work or at least within the medium it is going to be presented in! But no, all they ever mention is how proud they are of their progressive diversity. They don't even try to mask over the fact that they care more about their agenda than about Tolkien's work! Even in interviews, promotions, basically everything we've seen of this show so far. It is as if they went:

"Okay, we need to really push our political agenda forward for people to finally swallow it and in order to look as progressive as possible! Which giant fandom can we use for it the most effectively? Oh! How about Lord of the Rings? They're _massive_!".

Yeah. Nah. Not cool. That is what _really_ rubs me the wrong way! No author's work deserves to be used as a tool for propaganda, no matter how "well-meaning" it may be. Especially not Tolkien's! It's so disrespectful of his great legacy.

Now apart from all that, one thing I really _do_ appreciate about this show is that it introduces Tolkien's works to a whole lot of new people, that it draws interest and curiosity, that it revitalises the attention towards the professor's body of work. That in itself is amazing and should not be underestimated nor undervalued. I strongly prefer people to pick up Tolkien's books and according to that form their own opinion on whether they like how this show is presenting it or not over pushing my own opinion onto them. The show is gaining traction regarding Tolkien's legacy and of _that_ I couldn't be more grateful because _that_ is what he deserves!


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 11, 2022)

Nacilme Mapare said:


> This video, at least in parts, is giving me the chills. The showrunners don't even try to hide the fact that all they were looking for was but a cash-cow to milk. Sad, to say the least.
> 
> Regardless of what I personally think about this show and the producer's choices of casting and script adaptation (though, in short, I agree with most of the points Disparu makes in this video), what _really_ bugs me is that they are so blatantly using Tolkien's comprehensive work as a mere _tool_ in order to push their own political agenda along. Especially in such a blatant "in your faces" kind of way.
> 
> ...


I agree with this, despite trying to keep an optimistic view coming into it. I try to avoid talking about agendas, and things like that regarding it, but I have made a few posts like this myself. It is upsetting. Despite that, I am glad that it will introduce new-readers to Tolkien, and I am impressed by the cinematography I have seen so far.


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## Lithóniel (Aug 11, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> I agree with this, despite trying to keep an optimistic view coming into it.


Yes, that’s what I’m trying to do too, but I’m also making sure that I’m prepared for the worst also, so that when I see it I won’t be utterly disappointed or something like that. I just like making sure I’m prepared, but I’m still optimistic about it. 😊


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## Nacilme Mapare (Aug 11, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> I agree with this, despite trying to keep an optimistic view coming into it.


That is just fair, of course! I'm not even (trying to) be(ing) pessimistic here. The show might be good in it's own right and it will for sure be massively entertaining! On the long run we'll have to see what comes of it and I admit that I'm quite eager to satisfy my curiosity on this one! It's still based on Tolkien after all, if even remotely.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 11, 2022)

Lithóniel said:


> Yes, that’s what I’m trying to do too, but I’m also making sure that I’m prepared for the worst also, so that when I see it I won’t be utterly disappointed or something like that. I just like making sure I’m prepared, but I’m still optimistic about it. 😊


I understand that completely. I certainly don't expect it to be completely accurate nor a good representation of Tolkien. I don't doubt that it won't be. I am just trying to keep being optimistic, because there is no point in forming negative opinions about it, especially before I have even seen the show. 


Nacilme Mapare said:


> That is just fair, of course! I'm not even (trying to) be(ing) pessimistic here. The show might be good in it's own right and it will for sure be massively entertaining! On the long run we'll have to see what comes of it and I admit that I'm quite eager to satisfy my curiosity on this one! It's still based on Tolkien after all, if even remotely.


Yeah, I understand that. I am certain it will be entertaining too. On the lines of any agendas, from what I have seen, at least in the trailer, you really have to look and peer into it to find the reference of agendas or propaganda being pushed. Obviously, I cannot make any comment on the episodes of this show, as I have not seen any of them. I hope it is not too evident, and that they just try to enjoy Tolkien, and introduce more people to like his incredible works. Of course, this will be no Tolkien. Because it can't be. In all the literature I have read, and grant you it is much, I have not found a single work that I appreciate more than Tolkien. All the others seem to just pale in comparison, and all the others can become a bit stale to me, but not Tolkien. I can pore over Tolkien for hours, day after day and it never gets old. No doubt, this show will not compare to that at all. Yet, I have hope and promise, because it is Tolkien-related, and in the end, if you don't like it, don't watch it. It truly is that simple.


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## Copia (Aug 11, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> It was never about creating movies or series 100% true to the books.
> Rarely anyone expect that (even the hardcore fans).
> 
> The problem is, when you create something from Tolkien works, and it looks just plain stupid.
> ...




I just want to point out that Im not happy as long as it replicated LOTR. And great visuals does not automaticly make a great show/movie. Just look at the abomination that is The Hobbit movies.

Also I dont want an adaption of the First Age/Silmarillion, but I kinda wish they had those rights, as then I dont think they would had to make their own stories as much.
As for example Finrod. He seemingly will have another death because they cant touch The Silmarillion.

PS. And dont shoot me down, Im not defending this series in any way. I cant as I havent seen it.
But I am cautiously optimistic, and I am looking forward to check it out.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 11, 2022)

Copia said:


> PS. And dont shoot me down, Im not defending this series in any way. I cant as I havent seen it.
> But I am cautiously optimistic, and I am looking forward to check it out.


We all are cautiously optimistic, Copia. Just some of us a bit more 'cautious' and some a bit more 'optimistic'. We're on the same page-- both metaphorically and literally..


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## Radaghast (Aug 11, 2022)

All I can say is I'm not even a fan of Pee-Jay's films, and he had a strong framework off which to work (he had the same with _The Hobbit_ but decided, for whatever reason, to stretch the story into an "epic"). I have little hope for a series where we know for a fact that characters and events that are not in canon will be heavily featured; will indeed make up most of the series since there isn't enough source material to cover a series of this scope.

I've never read fan-fiction (and never will). Why on earth would I want to watch it? In all fairness, I did see most of the Hobbit movies, though that only furthers my point.

What about the bizarre promos resembling hair product ads and soap opera intros would make me interested? Why should I feel thrilled about the randomly diverse (and blatantly tokenist) cast that makes little sense in the context of the source material?

And I think we've seen plenty enough — casting and dialouge, in particular — to form an opinion (the casting of Celebrimbor alone is enough to make me want to give this a WIDE berth).


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 11, 2022)

I personally cannot comment on The Hobbit films, since I have never watched them. I plan to, at some point, especially with all that I hear about them on this Forum, but I have not gotten around to it-- yet.

We all know it won't be canon. It never was advertised as a perfectly accurate representation of Tolkien's works-- that would be physically impossible to create. It is indeed then a "fan-fiction" that you are left with-- and if you want to watch it, you can, and if you don't, no one will force you. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and since it has not even aired yet, opinions are just about the only thing we can form. No clear analysis can be made for it, or against it at this point, all that we have is the trailers, which we can form opinions about. That is all.

You don't have to be thrilled or interested at all even. We have seen enough to form an opinion on the trailer, yes. But not on the show as a whole. You can't judge something if you don't see it. You can have opinions on the trailer, and you can have expectations great or small about the actual show-- but in reality, none of us have seen it, so we can't really come to a true conclusion.


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## Radaghast (Aug 11, 2022)

More by Disparu, examining and shredding an opinion piece the author of which bends over backwards trying to justify the forced diversity in the casting.






The author of this article does not back up any of his points or claims. I mean, the title does outright state it's an opinion, but it's still an biased and uninformed one. The author makes declarative statements assuming an air of authority that is not earned.

I want to highlight just a few lines given an idea of the wrongheadedness of it:


> Those lamenting the supposed “race swapping” decision follow a similar thread. They often begin their polemic by pointing out that LOTR and other source materials composed by Tolkien contain occasional references to the pale skin tone of elven and Númenórean (ancient human) characters.
> 
> Furthermore, they claim that Tolkien intended his legendarium to become the Anglo-Saxon national mythology (this veracity of this claim is dubious), and hence its protagonists must be white.


The very statement that anyone makes this claim is dubious, meaning that anyone used the term "Anglo-Saxon" while making it. But, whatever words might be used by anyone, it's beyond doubt that Tolkien wanted to create a mythology for _England_. And, going through his letters, Tolkien refers invariably to Anglo-Saxon as a language rather than an ethnicity.

Anyway, the rest of the article is linked at the top for anyone interested in reading it.


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## Annatar (Aug 11, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> I have little hope for a series where we know for a fact that characters and events that are not in canon will be heavily featured; will indeed make up most of the series


I actually agree with you on almost everything.

Here, however, I would say that I would be very happy with a fanfiction and added invented characters, if it did not - as obviously in this adaptation - contradict the book originals in many things.

An added invented character in the sense of Tolkien would be completely okay for me, at least much better than a misrepresented character, who was actually described (differently) by Tolkien, but where on the one hand the rights of the producers to a work-faithful representation are missing - and on the other hand quite obviously also the will to implement it in Tolkien's sense free of any contemporary politics.

In the end, one really has to wonder why they chose the one part of the LotR appendices where there are the fewest details, while these details would all be found on other books, but where the rights are missing.

Well, those who can count to three can certainly guess the answer...


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## Halasían (Aug 11, 2022)

Copia said:


> PS. And dont shoot me down, Im not defending this series in any way. I cant as I havent seen it.
> But I am cautiously optimistic, and I am looking forward to check it out.


It's sad that this even has to be stated in a 'discussion' about the series when someone says they are 'cautiously optimistic and am looking forward to seeing it.  

I won't say anything more here on the subject. The discussions here on TTF is what it is.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 11, 2022)

Halasían said:


> It's sad that this even has to be stated in a 'discussion' about the series when someone says they are 'cautiously optimistic and am looking forward to seeing it.


This is so true-- but in fairness, no one was actually 'shooting them down' it was simply a post out of caution. Everyone was entirely polite and kind, on this occasion.


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## Radaghast (Aug 11, 2022)

Annatar said:


> I actually agree with you on almost everything.
> 
> Here, however, I would say that I would be very happy with a fanfiction and added invented characters, if it did not - as obviously in this adaptation - contradict the book originals in many things.


I guess I would have to see a successful example of this to get an idea of how it could work. And I wonder how often it happens with other works of literature.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 11, 2022)

I think there are examples of fan-fiction even on this Forum. For more professional work, I would search the web, or even your library.


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## Radaghast (Aug 11, 2022)

I meant to ask how often it happens in adaptations.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 11, 2022)

Oh, I see.


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## Annatar (Aug 12, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> I guess I would have to see a successful example of this to get an idea of how it could work. And I wonder how often it happens with other works of literature.


I'm not aware of any such case. On the other hand, I don't know of a single case where the source material and rights situation is so absurd.

But I'd have some ideas what you could do, and even include diversity without violating the canon:

For example, a separate sub-plot in Harad. It's about a city that is to be subjugated by Sauron. A few (including the original king/mayor or whatever) resist, but end up succumbing to the intrigue and power plays, so some end up allying with Sauron and others with the (Black / King's Men) Numenoreans, etc.
Neither alternative would be particularly nice for the populace, but it would give Bezos his Game of Thrones series with all its intrigue and villains on all sides...

Or a sub-plot in Rhun with the Blue Wizards, who instigate uprisings against Sauron there through clever interventions...

(And of course, it would be just as moronic to randomly cast the original population of Harad or Rhun with actors who are clearly of European descent. That would be just as immersion-destroying as what Amazon is doing now.)

Under the given circumstances, I think it would have made even more sense to rely completely on fanfiction that plausibly integrates into Tolkien's world, instead of altering well-known characters like Galadriel, Miriel, Elrond, etc. to such an extent that it hurts.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 12, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> I guess I would have to see a successful example of this to get an idea of how it could work. And I wonder how often it happens with other works of literature.


A recent example is Sanditon. There's even the parallel circumstance that the original story was unfinished.

And there's another example of an unfinished fantasy story being continued as fanfic


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## Radaghast (Aug 12, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> A recent example is Sanditon. There's even the parallel circumstance that the original story was unfinished.
> 
> And there's another example of an unfinished fantasy story being continued as fanfic


Haven't read the book _Sanditon_ but I can see where such a character would fit. Another example is Ros from _Game of Thrones_.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 12, 2022)

Bingo.


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## Radaghast (Aug 12, 2022)

Of course, that character had the input of the franchise creator himself, and was maybe even created by him.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 12, 2022)

But in general, we can say the series outran the published story? Wouldn't that qualify it as a kind of fanfic?


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## Radaghast (Aug 12, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> But in general, we can say the series outran the published story? Wouldn't that qualify it as a kind of fanfic?


Sure, for all I care. I stopped watching after season 5 😆

Other more recent examples, pertaining to Tolkien, are Tauriel and Alfrid, whose last name I am just learning is 'Lickspittle' 🙄


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 12, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> Other more recent examples, pertaining to Tolkien, are Tauriel and Alfrid, whose last name I am just learning is 'Lickspittle' 🙄


Hmm.... Alfrid is in The Hobbit films?


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## Radaghast (Aug 12, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Hmm.... Alfrid is in The Hobbit films?


Yes, he is a sidekick to the Master of Lake-town.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 12, 2022)

Strange..

As I said before, I have never actually watched them. I have read the book, and it is wonderful, and watched The Lord of the Rings movies which I also loved, but that is intriguing. I have also heard that Galadriel is in The Hobbit movies, while her presence is not in The Hobbit, is this true?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 12, 2022)

Yes, she appears at the last meeting of the White Council, and the attack on Dol Guldur -- which features a love scene between her and Gandalf. 🙄


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 12, 2022)

Okay-- that is odd. There was no love between her and Gandalf-- especially because since practically always she loved Celeborn.


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## Annatar (Aug 12, 2022)

They tried to bring in a few things from the appendices somehow.
But that's all secondary, because it's primarily a jump 'n run computer game that you don't play yourself, but where you just watch others play. It's just something for 12 year old boys.



Radaghast said:


> whose last name I am just learning is 'Lickspittle'


They must have taken their cue from Grima Wormtongue. 



Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> features a love scene between her and Gandalf


Just like the romance between that "sexy" dwarf and Tauriel, this was a stupid lore deviation in favor of the zeitgeist, and that's exactly how you'll see it in today's fantasy series (including RoP) in 10 years (if you don't already see it today)....
Unfortunately, more and more nonsense is added, which is why I can almost no longer watch modern productions. (I'd rather watch series and movies from the 80s again, because at least only the hairstyles and CGI effects sucked back then. 😏)
But let's stay with this example: A production for a mass audience supposedly can't do without love scenes or romances, no matter how far-fetched they are. But people and especially fans realize very quickly that this is total crap, so why do they do it anyway?
Probably because some stupid consultants and highly paid advertising psychologists believe that you can do more business that way. But are there any facts and figures that actually prove this? Maybe it's true on average, but for certain book adaptations, especially children's and/or fantasy books, this recipe just doesn't work.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 12, 2022)

Hearing about this 'love scene' between Gandalf and Galadriel is very disappointing. I loved The Lord of the Rings movies, and as I have said I never watched The Hobbit films yet, however this makes me both inclined to not, and to.

To not, because it seems so far from the true story.

To, because I am curious about how many things are inaccurate, and I am anxious to make my own analysis of it.

I'm honestly torn.


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## Annatar (Aug 12, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Hearing about this 'love scene' between Gandalf and Galadriel is very disappointing.


Well, that "love scene" between Gandalf and Galadriel is not quite that disastrous. It's actually just a minor thing, and you can theoretically interpret it differently.
The films have much worse problems than this trivial scene.

As already indicated, one of the main problems is that there are far too many moronic action scenes that completely contradict physics and are, in principle, also totally boring - just like watching someone play a computer game. But that's also due to the zeitgeist of that time, when it was "cool" to show superheroes beating each other up for what felt like hours across the galaxy without anyone taking any serious damage. This started at the latest with such nonsense as "Batman vs. Superman". One of the dumbest movies ever. Who likes something like that? 😫
(But what am I talking about "of that time", it's actually only gotten worse today).

It's just the way it is: mainstream blockbusters nowadays don't have the slightest level of quality or ambition, apart from a few exceptions such as the last Dune film adaptation, but since it was only the beginning so far, you have to wait and see how it will turn out. With the Hobbit trilogy, the beginning was also pretty okay.

Unfortunately, most people still seem to gobble up whatever garbage is put in front of them, otherwise we wouldn't be seeing such a steady loss of quality.
And for these reasons, I vehemently oppose any crap that is put in front of me, especially when it involves adaptations of sacred works like Tolkien's books.



Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> I loved The Lord of the Rings movies



I thought they were awful at the time as well, how could they be otherwise, but in retrospect, from today's perspective, they are almost true to the books. 🤣
But I can kind of understand it if you like the movies and didn't read the books or know the pictures of Alan Lee and John Howe before.

Well, I still can't watch them anymore, especially the last part. Compared to the books, it's all just terribly bad.
And still much better than what I've seen so far in RoP teasers, trailers and interviews... 🤮

Still, I'm going to force myself to watch at least the first three to five episodes. The facts and images that have already been presented have unfortunately completely destroyed any chance of still somehow enjoying it. The only hope left is that it will at least be a good, unintentionally funny parody. The odds are already very good for that.







So - have fun with this abomination... er desecration... er I mean show or "the mega-event series that could only happen now"! 🥳


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 12, 2022)

Annatar said:


> I thought they were awful at the time as well, how could they be otherwise, but in retrospect, from today's perspective, they are almost true to the books. 🤣
> But I can kind of understand it if you like the movies and didn't read the books or know the pictures of Alan Lee and John Howe before.


It actually isn't so for me. I had never seen a depiction of anything The Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit, when I read the books, formulating my own ideas of the characters in my head, and shortly after or during (I cannot quite remember) I watched the films. I loved them, honestly-- and while I did not think of them as accurate and true, I appreciated them very much so.

Obviously, nothing compares to the books, nor ever can, nor ever will, nor ever has; but I enjoy the things I have seen from The Lord of the Rings movies very much, but hearing this, I am a bit skeptical about The Hobbit films, as it may be just a bit too fabricated for me.


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## Annatar (Aug 12, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> but I enjoy the things I have seen from The Lord of the Rings movies very much, but hearing this, I am a bit skeptical about The Hobbit films


In that case, you would probably like the Hobbit films at least to some extent, even if not as well as the LotR films.
You don't seem to have anything against PJ's style in general. The Hobbit films are basically in the same style, but the story is just completely bloated and filled with more fanfiction and even more pointless idiot action. But there was already enough such action-scenes in the LotR adaptation, such as shield-skateboarding Legolas or green, billowing ghosts in the Pelennor Fields.
There's a lot more of that in the Hobbit trilogy, but if you can live with that, it shouldn't be a problem for you, unless your personal limit is reached when Galadriel and Gandalf give each other a few compliments. 😉

Although the Hobbit movies are objectively worse, I was able to enjoy them even more than the LotR movies because I had very low expectations.


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## Nacilme Mapare (Aug 13, 2022)

Annatar said:


> I'm not aware of any such case. On the other hand, I don't know of a single case where the source material and rights situation is so absurd.
> 
> But I'd have some ideas what you could do, and even include diversity without violating the canon:
> 
> ...


Let me just say that I absolutely love your ideas! They sound so intriguing! Plus, they show how it would have absolutely been possible to implement Big River's diversity policy without undermining existing characters, timelines, plots, etc. Take notes, JB!


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 13, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Yes, she appears at the last meeting of the White Council, and the attack on Dol Guldur -- which features a love scene between her and Gandalf. 🙄


A love scene? That was simply her healing powers to prevent him from fading.  


Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> There was no love between her and Gandalf-- especially because since practically always she loved Celeborn.


You are right.


Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> To not, because it seems so far from the true story.
> 
> To, because I am curious about how many things are inaccurate, and I am anxious to make my own analysis of it.
> 
> I'm honestly torn.


The Hobbit movies, in my opinion, weren't so disappointing as some put it. However, I watched the Hobbit movies before LOTR - thus, a reversal may deem the Hobbit movies to seem slightly disappointing, in that sense. 

_But how would you e'er know, without watching it thyself?_


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## Radaghast (Aug 14, 2022)

Why does this idiot keep saying she's going to be the first female dwarf on screen? Did someone tell her to say it or does she honestly believe it?


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 14, 2022)

Isn't there a female Dwarf in The Hobbit films?


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## Radaghast (Aug 14, 2022)

There are indeed female dwarves shown in The Hobbit movies. Also, there are two female dwarf characters in _The Huntsman: Winter's War_.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 14, 2022)

Thanks for the clarity-- I thought I had remembered seeing them in a trailer or something.


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## arivista (Aug 17, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> Why does this idiot keep saying she's going to be the first female dwarf on screen? Did someone tell her to say it or does she honestly believe it?


I somehow doubt she got it on her own, I suppose she was told that by the creators.

Let's ignore for a while the actual veracity of the claim -I think it's a significant red flag that they _care _about it so much and herald it as something truly great. (For clarification, I don't mind having a female dwarf in TROP in itself.) And since they obviously do, I find it somewhat improbable Dísa will be a great character. It's not impossible, but not likely, given how we humans tend to operate.

There is strong propensity in us to go in the way of least resistance. It's not unbreakable rule of the universe, just a tendency - but a fairly strong one, I believe. In some respects, it even makes sense. If you can achieve a goal with certain amount of energy, using more energy can be wasteful. Our bodies aim at efficiency, and so do our minds, oftentimes.

If your boss or your teacher give you an assignment, and you know you can accomplish it with certain amount of time and effort, will you spend more time and effort to make the result even better, when you have already achieved what was asked for? Maybe you will (and that's commendable), but I would say most people probably won’t. Why bother, they have done what was needed. And even out of the (relatively) few who will make extra effort, most will probably not sweat too much. They might try to improve the result a little, but not, say, double the time and energy to make it super duper awesome.

This is just how things tend to be in our world. So, let’s apply it to character writing. The goal is obviously to make a great character. And since they’ve decided to have (supposedly) a first female dwarf ever on screen, which is described as awesome just in itself, it means the goal is already accomplished in her case. "Having first female dwarf is great, I have first female dwarf, I have great character." So, will they make extra effort to make her interesting in other respects? Maybe, but I wouldn’t bet on it. It is not impossible, but general human tendency suggests otherwise to me. Therefore my hopes are quite low.


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## Radaghast (Aug 17, 2022)

arivista said:


> This is just how things tend to be in our world. So, let’s apply it to character writing. The goal is obviously to make a great character. And since they’ve decided to have (supposedly) a first female dwarf ever on screen, which is described as awesome just in itself, it means the goal is already accomplished in her case. "Having first female dwarf is great, I have first female dwarf, I have great character." So, will they make extra effort to make her interesting in other respects? Maybe, but I wouldn’t bet on it. It is not impossible, but general human tendency suggests otherwise to me. Therefore my hopes are quite low.


She doesn't even talk about the quality of the character, only how progressive she believes it is. For her it's about redressing balance, whatever that means. The goal of the showrunners seems overall to be diversity for diversity's sake, logic (and probably story) be damned (also, by most accounts, she's not going to be in in much). 

As for hope for anything, that doesn't apply to me since I quit Prime a while ago (for various reasons). I will follow through episode reviews and synopses.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 17, 2022)

But this is an outright lie you said. There are other female Dwarves on screen...


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## Radaghast (Aug 17, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> But this is an outright lie you said. There are other female Dwarves on screen...


Not sure who you're responding to.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 17, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> Not sure who you're responding to.


Whoever told me that there were many Dwarf depictions in other films and programs.


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## Radaghast (Aug 17, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Whoever told me that there were many Dwarf depictions in other films and programs.


I don't know if I said that, though it is accurate. I said there were female dwarfs in media before Disa, and that is true as well.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 17, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> I don't know if I said that, though it is accurate. I said there were female dwarfs in media before Disa, and that is true as well.


I see. Thank you for the clarification.


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## Radaghast (Aug 17, 2022)




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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 17, 2022)

Is this another criticism video?


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## Radaghast (Aug 17, 2022)

It shows the trailer with anything that's not Tolkien edited out (if you ask me, the video is being generous).


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 17, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Is this another criticism video?


I fear that too many have come to pass, and that more may also...


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## Radaghast (Aug 17, 2022)

Yeah. Poor, poor Amazon 😭


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 17, 2022)

I don't grieve for Amazon, I grieve for the people who have nothing better to do than condemn it with videos of criticism. In the end, most are just opinions.


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## arivista (Aug 18, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> She doesn't even talk about the quality of the character, only how progressive she believes it is. For her it's about redressing balance, whatever that means. The goal of the showrunners seems overall to be diversity for diversity's sake, logic (and probably story) be damned (also, by most accounts, she's not going to be in in much).


I totally share your concerns, when artist’s primary aspiration is to induce societal changes through his artistic endeavors (“_this and this is not right with society, I have to change it with my book/movie etc_.”), storytelling and overall quality tends to go sideways, at least in my experience. Regardless of the goal, whether desirable in itself or not. It takes unusual, world-class talent to avoid that trap, even just a little more ordinary creators rarely achieve it.

(Of course, most writers incorporate their worldview and broader philosophical ideas into their creations and want to engage their audience and make them think about it. But that is not the same as social-activism-through-art thing. For the latter, not inducing desired change is a failure. They _primarily _want to change your mind on X. But for the former failure it is not, if the art creation at least engaged you and made you think about used themes and philosophy, even though it did not bring about anything tangible in the real world. This remote “communication” between the author and the audience is enough for them.)

I have learned that firsthand from my culture and history. I come from Czech Republic, former Czechoslovakia. For those not well-versed in history, my country has been a part of Austrian empire (later Austria-Hungary) for several centuries, and after World War I it regained its independence, in 1918. During 20s and 30s it was fairly free and democratic country – although far from perfect - at least in comparison with some other post-austrian states. Then Hitler occupied us, after his demise we’ve had three years of semi-free regime, but in 1948 Communist party took over, established totalitarian rule and brought the state into close union with USSR, until 1989.

Of course, the change of regime influenced the culture as well. Movies, books and basically everything was made subservient to the new ideological status quo. When you compare Czechoslovakian cinema from 30s and 50s (40s was rather specific era in this respect, but not very relevant now), the difference is quite clear. And our 30s movies are more watchable then our 50s movies. Sure, both are creations of their own time, from modern perspective they are slow-paced, oftentimes somewhat naïve etc. – but even accounting for this, the difference is still significant.

What is interesting – and also my specific point – when you look at it on paper, you might conclude the _50s movies_ would probably be more interesting. Because our 30s movies are for the most part stories of rich upper-class people, for some reasons. Sure, there are some exceptions, but overall, this is how it was. In the 50s we have had obvious shift, when they were all focused on poor or working-class people. So, in theory, we should have gotten new, original stories focused on previously neglected groups, with their specific challenges and perspectives, with which could more people identify. In theory. I think you can guess that’s not exactly what happened. (And just to make sure, I come from blue-collar family and when I was a kid, I’ve had less stuff than most of my friend and classmates – not super rich themselves – so I don’t say this out of some ivory tower of lifelong wealth privilege.)

The problem was exactly as I stated in the beginning: if the primary goal of art is changing society – in our case make people reject all aspect of “bourgeoisie society” and embrace new direction, in which everything is (supposedly) done for the sake of proletariat and creation of new socialist and eventually communist society – it significantly affects the storytelling and characters. All aspects are made subservient to the beforementioned goal, therefore they usually end up being predictable, boring and formulaic. The poor hero is always noble, the rich, if they ever appeared, were very stereotypical bad guys. Because that was the message they wanted to push – proletariat good, bourgeoisie bad.

It is not that you can’t have a _good_ story where the poor guy is admirable and noble and the rich antagonist evil and detestable. You can – and there are many such examples. I have no problem with them as such. But the main point of our 50s movies was to tell the audience basically:_ “Have you noticed in this story how the poor are good and the rich are bad? See, this is how it is in real life! (Therefore, communists are right about everything, by the way.)_” And you could feel that from the movies. It’s not that I would believe that real life it the opposite, the rich are good, and the poor are bad. Of course not. And I have no problem with stories of good poor protagonist facing bad rich antagonist in itself – if the story _isn’t_ just a thinly veiled attempt at molding my overall perception of the poor and the rich. I find it annoying just out of principle. If someone made a movie in such a way, that would make it quite clear it just wants to change my perception in the opposite direction (the rich are good and the poor are lazy and bad), I would be equally put off.

This is what makes our 50s movies so hard to watch – even those famous one, that became sort of classics. (Mainly from endless repetitions. Most such “classic movies” from the 50s are fairy-tales, which are quite popular among Czechs, just in general. They have watched them as kids, unable to recognize ideological element in them, and therefore – because of nostalgia – they later watch it with their kids.) But even though such movies are bearable because of nostalgia factor, adult sees plenty of stuff that makes him roll his eyes – “oh, of course they included _this, _so laughable.” But other non-classic movies without any nostalgia attached to them are plainly unwatchable – as far as I know, nobody likes them today, probably not even self-professed communists. Our 30s movies are sometimes also hard to watch through for modern audience, but simply because they are old and slow-paced for them, and not for the same formulaic storytelling and character writing as our 50s movies had. (Later in 60s, 70s and 80s they learned to be more subtle in this. At least somewhat – and sometimes.) And there are definitely some fans of our 30s cinema even today, they still air those movies on TV. Not every day, but now and then.

I admit I have somewhat simplified the whole issue of Czechoslovakian cinema, but the core is I believe fairly accurately described. And it serves only as an illustration of a broader principle. We live in a different time and different context, so obviously that, which is around us now, is different in many respects. You cannot just put equal sign between them. But essential approach of TROP creators, as pointed out by Radaghast (among other things) seems to me somewhat similar to what I have written about. 

That's another reason I am quite skeptical about the show. In theory the diversity should making more interesting, maybe. But if it really will be diversity for diversity sake, I find it unlikely TROP story and characters will be good (also for reasons described in my previous post). Historically, they rarely were in similar cases, in my experience. 

*Note for the moderators: This post is not about whether diversity or certain contemporary politics are wrong in itself. It is about how certain type of approach to art tend to negatively affect the story. And whether we can expect that manifested in TROP.* I don’t see anything in the rules that prohibits discussing that. What I have pointed out serves only as real-life example of the principle.


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## Halasían (Aug 18, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Is this another criticism video?


It is. It's funny that if it wasn't for the Rings of Power series, all these youtooberz wouldn't have it to generate their clickbait vids about it. So in a way they are parasiting on Rings of Power to make all this crap. Too funny. 🤣


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 18, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Is this another criticism video?


This is Jonathan from TORc, who's been on a vendetta for months now, to the neglect of his forum.

Which is OK by me, as people there have been recommending switching to TTF. 😉


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 18, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> I grieve for the people who have nothing better to do than condemn it with videos of criticism. In the end, most are just opinions.


Why is this so true? Hence why I said there are too many criticism videos, and yet there may be more...


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 18, 2022)

Of course there will. Savvy Youtubers learned long ago that rant-videos get more eyeballs (_read_: ad money).


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## Radaghast (Aug 18, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> Why is this so true? Hence why I said there are too many criticism videos, and yet there may be more...


Yes, there will definitely be more. But how many is too many? Is there an acceptable number? Of course you're not obligated to watch any of them.



Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Of course there will. Savvy Youtubers learned long ago that rant-videos get more eyeballs (_read_: ad money).


I've not noticed many ads during these videos, which I find rather odd. Even in those of a channel called "Knights Watch" whose videos regularly go over an hour. Also, I've noticed a lot of YouTubers saying that they're being stiffed on ad revenue and ask their followers to consider supporting them on Patreon, etc.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 18, 2022)

Yes, that's another revenue source.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 18, 2022)

In the end most of the videos and such out there has a single purpose; make more money.


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## Radaghast (Aug 18, 2022)

Halasían said:


> It is. It's funny that if it wasn't for the Rings of Power series, all these youtooberz wouldn't have it to generate their clickbait vids about it. So in a way they are parasiting on Rings of Power to make all this crap. Too funny. 🤣


It's also funny that the teasers and trailers have been ratioed to Hades. If these YTers are getting clicks it's because people agree with them. It's not just a vocal minority that this backlash is coming from.



Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> In the end most of the videos and such out there has a single purpose; make more money.


And Amazon is in it out of the goodness of their hearts? 😐


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 18, 2022)

No. Most certainly not. It is all just a cash-grab for the most part.


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## Radaghast (Aug 18, 2022)

Incidentally, not only is Amazon (or Sophia Nomvete or whoever) wrong about depicting the first female dwarf onscreen EVER, they are also wrong that they are depicting the first "elf of color".






Kristen Wilson in _Dungeons & Dragons_ (2000).





Emilia Burns in _The Shannara Chronicles_ (2016-2017).





_Warcraft_ (2016). I couldn't find what this actor's name is; possibly just an extra.





Wilson Mbomio in _The Witcher_ (2019)

As can be seen from the images above, there has been diversity in fantasy for quite a while now. Amazon is not spearheading anything.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 18, 2022)

I see....


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 18, 2022)

I somehow doubt anyone said RoP features "the first female elf onscreen EVER", but I'll await the citation.


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## Radaghast (Aug 18, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I somehow doubt anyone said RoP features "the first female elf onscreen EVER", but I'll await the citation.


Whoops, my mistake. I meant to say "dwarf". Fixed.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 18, 2022)

So, she's not the first female Dwarf?

Or she's a Dwarf depicting an elf? 

I'm confused. 🤔


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## Radaghast (Aug 18, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> So, she's not the first female Dwarf?
> 
> Or she's a Dwarf depicting an elf?
> 
> I'm confused. 🤔


Amazon (or Sophia Nomvete) is wrong about their depicting the first female dwarf. They (or Ismael Cruz Cordova) are also wrong about their depicting the first "elf of color".


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 18, 2022)

Who was the first female dwarf?


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## Radaghast (Aug 18, 2022)

There were female dwarves in _An Unexpected Journey_. I haven't seen Willow decades but I believe that movie showed some too. More recently, _The Huntsman: Winter's War_ had two female dwarf characters, played by Sheridan Smith and Alexandra Roach.


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## d4rk3lf (Aug 18, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Who was the first female dwarf?


Aulea


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 18, 2022)

Hey, I found one!


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## d4rk3lf (Aug 18, 2022)

On these thread, I constantly criticized LOTR Amazon, and constantly pointed out my fear on what this series should look at the end (and my fear haven't dimmed yet). 

However, I forgot to mention, that equally gross to me are the you tube (small channels), trying to "protect the Tolkien fans and lore", while you can clearly see their only goal is more subscribers. .. someone posted a link of some guy that is just like that in some of the previous pages. 
I apologize for not mentioning that earlier. 

Then again, I am annoyed by some "fans" requesting "dwarf women must have beards". 
Why? 
For the Crist sake, why? 
I am not a Tolkien lore master (I've read; Hobbit, LOTR, Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, Children of Hurin), and read many parts all over again, many times, and I don't recall any moment Tolkien insisted dwarf womens had beards... I mean.. even if he insisted (in some letters or whatever), is this really important? 
Isn't more important character development, cinematography, editing, story twists.. etc, then this?

Diversity:
Yeah, sensitive subjects... I can only agreed to some people saying, that they could have easily done that with placing some heroic and noble characters in Harad, and Run territory, and nobody would complain. Black elf? Umm.. doesn't really looks realistic.. I am glad many of our black friends (that are also Tolkien fans) agreed with us.



Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Hey, I found one!
> View attachment 15041


LOL - that's the one!


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 18, 2022)

@d4rk3lf , I appreciate that you are not in full support of these criticism videos either...


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## Elthir (Aug 18, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> ( . . . ) and I don't recall any moment Tolkien insisted dwarf womens had beards . . .



The idea is based on a description in Appendix A, in the information (seemingly supplied by Gimli)
about Dwarf-women.

And it's backed up in posthumously published, Silmarillion related texts -- there's more to that tale
[for example: why isn't it in the 1977 Silmarillion then], but I would like to keep this answer shortish 
for some reason.





d4rk3lf said:


> I mean.. even if he insisted (in some letters or whatever), is this really important?



It is to Dwarf folk


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 18, 2022)

Elthir said:


> The idea is based on a description in Appendix A, in the information (seemingly supplied by Gimli)
> about Dwarf-women.
> 
> And it's backed up in posthumously published, Silmarillion related texts (there's more to that tale
> ...


Always on-point with citation and source! Thank you!


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## Radaghast (Aug 18, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> However, I forgot to mention, that equally gross to me are the you tube (small channels), trying to "protect the Tolkien fans and lore", while you can clearly see their only goal is more subscribers. .. someone posted a link of some guy that is just like that in some of the previous pages.
> I apologize for not mentioning that earlier.


Is there something wrong with wanting more subscribers? I can think of someone — or something — else that wants more subscribers.






Anyway, do you think these YouTubers have nothing positive to say about anything? If they liked what they saw of the Amazon series, do you think they'd be silent about it? I myself doubt it. Also, RoP isn't the only thing that exists in the entertainment world. As far "exploiting" any of these properties, that's true of any company that reviews or comments on entertainment media.


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## Berzelmayr (Aug 18, 2022)

about the canonical and non canonical characters in TROP:


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 18, 2022)

Berzelmayr said:


> about the canonical and non canonical characters in TROP:


Hmmm... Interesting. This one may actually be worth a watch, if it is constructive and not critical.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 18, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> They (or Ismael Cruz Cordova) are also wrong about their depicting the first "elf of color".


I believe they were referring to the first _Tolkien _"elf of color".


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## Radaghast (Aug 18, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I believe they were referring to the first _Tolkien _"elf of color".


I didn't hear Tolkien's name being used. He seemed to speaking as if he was the first.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 18, 2022)

Hm. That is strange. Perhaps that is what he meant to convey?


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## Radaghast (Aug 18, 2022)

His exact words (from one interview):


> There will no longer be a time when you can say there are no elves of color. We erased that one.


Again, no he didn't. And no mention of Tolkien. If he is unaware that there is fantasy other than Tolkien in media that's his problem.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 18, 2022)

I see... Okay. Thanks for explaining that.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 18, 2022)

_OMG! AN ACTOR MADE A MISTAKE! _😱

That tears it -- I certainly can't watch now. 😳


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 18, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> _OMG! AN ACTOR MADE A MISTAKE! _😱
> 
> That tears it -- I certainly can't watch now. 😳


Fair point. I can feel the sarcasm....


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## Radaghast (Aug 18, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> _OMG! AN ACTOR MADE A MISTAKE! _😱
> 
> That tears it -- I certainly can't watch now. 😳


Maybe it wasn't (just) his mistake. Also, if mistake, rather smugly made. And the showrunners and whoever else seem awfully ignorant about what exists in fantasy adaptations. Inexcusable, imho.

I'm not arguing for anybody not to watch it, btw 😁


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 18, 2022)

I'm old enough to have read some of the stuff emitted by PJ's actors, back in the day. 😄

Edit: _And _PJ.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 18, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> I'm old enough to have read some of the stuff emitted by PJ's actors, back in the day. 😄
> 
> Edit: _And _PJ.


I gather your point fully, and it is a good one, I may add.


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## d4rk3lf (Aug 18, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> Is there something wrong with wanting more subscribers?.


Yes there is... Using Tolkien's name to enrage the fans, then use this rage to get more subs. 
In my eyes, they are no different then Amazon


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## Radaghast (Aug 18, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> Yes there is... Using Tolkien's name to enrage the fans, then use this rage to get more subs.
> In my eyes, they are no different then Amazon


What makes you say _they're_ the ones enraging fans?


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## d4rk3lf (Aug 18, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> Anyway, do you think these YouTubers have nothing positive to say about anything?


Yes I do. 
Their ultimate goal is to find sensitive places, so they get more subs. 
If they were true Tolkien fans, they could address many failure in previous PJ Tolkien adaptations.



Radaghast said:


> If they liked what they saw of the Amazon series, do you think they'd be silent about it?


Yes I do... 
From all I can tell.. all they care about is subs... 
like... Amazon..


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## Radaghast (Aug 18, 2022)




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## d4rk3lf (Aug 18, 2022)

Radaghast said:


>



But of course it is. 
Why would you point this out at the first place? 
To prove my point? 
Lol.. 
Ok, thank you.


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## Radaghast (Aug 18, 2022)

Well, it's just a judgement call and doesn't prove your point. I don't see any strong reason to agree that these folks are just after the likes and subscribes, etc. and don't really care about the property. The reason they have channels at all is they like talking about the subjects of the video.

Also, I agree there should be more video criticism of PeeJay's films (part of the reason I dislike what I'm seeing of the RoP series is that it's going to put his films on an even higher pedestal) but I'm sure there are videos praising it, which proves such videos aren't always negative.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 18, 2022)

Radaghast said:


>


In the end, absolutely everything about this is purely opinion.


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## arivista (Aug 19, 2022)

As for Ismael Cruz Cordova, he is miscast as Middle-earth elf in my eyes, whether black elves can or cannot be proven canon.
He might be believable as, say, a Witcher elf, but not a Tolkien one - at least not to me. It takes more to make an elf than just pointy ears.

I believe Tolkien elves should radiate with immense, ethereal kind of beauty, there should be something "other-worldly" about them, if I may say.

It is debatable, whether all PJ's elves have that, but for example Arwen does, I think (this has nothing to do with her _role _in the movies, just overall appearance and visual impression).

But I simply don't see anything like that in Ismael Cruz Cordova. I think there are some black actors who might have it, but he doesn't. Most of RoP elvish actors don't, actually. Gil-galad looks OK so far, at least in comparison,

And don't get me wrong, it is really difficult to make a believable Tolkien elf, and many (most, actually) people probably can't, regardles how good actors they might be. I, for example, could never convey adequate Tolkien elf, even if I was top level actor on par with, say, Daniel Day-Lewis. I simply don't have appearance for it.


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## Radaghast (Aug 19, 2022)

Berzelmayr said:


> about the canonical and non canonical characters in TROP:


So, 22 or 23 out of 37 characters that weren't created by Tolkien. Interesting.


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## Elthir (Aug 19, 2022)

*Part One *of a longer response on beards (to *d4rk3lf* who didn't ask for a longer response, along with nobody else)

In my opinion, "Gimli's" description in Appendix A is about far more than beards: it's about Dwarf-women being _indistinguishable_ from Dwarven-men in the eyes of other races -- except for clothing -- _but even this_ concerns when the female Dwarves are not normally seen by other folk,

Also, and not to get pedantic but (pedantic alert), I'm not sure we certainly know what it is about Dwarf-clothing that distinguishes a female dwarf from a male dwarf, despite that one may jump to conclusions based upon how other folk dress.

Anyway, as noted but not fully quoted, the idea that Dwarf-women cannot be told apart from Dwarf-men (again, given the author-published exception) is also supported in the posthumously published Silmarillion texts: there it's said that Dwarven womankind cannot be discerned by those of other race: not in feature, not in gait, not in voice, *"nor in any wise save this"* -- and _here_ the "this" is that the woman go not to war, and seldom leave their deep bowers and halls.

Tolkien even went so far as to muse that* because Aule had only made males, Eru would not amend that work* [except the obvious refashioning, I must assume, referring to that which would not be obvious to other races, given clothes]


Also, I note that Jackson's Film-Gimli says that Dwarf-women are so alike in voice and appearance that they are _*"often mistaken"*_ for Dwarf-men.

In Appendix A, Tolkien's Gimli writes: "They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of other peoples *cannot tell them apart."*

Well, if I (not being a Tolkienian Dwarf) can't tell male and female Dwarves apart by voice or *appearance*, then I guess I would very likely make a "mistake" -- but an entirely expected one,
in any case.


*Part Three*

[part two was never written due to post-length considerations]

An unasked for aside on GLWB (Gandalf's Long White Beard -- although if I had just written that out in the first place, I could have saved time and space here): is Jackson's Gandalf's _The Hobbit's_ beard spot on?

According to the text, Gandalf's long "white" beard is supposed to have *"hung down below his waist."*

And no way I'm watching any film that doesn't have:

*1)* a Gandalfian beard clearly beyond this wizard's waist

*B)* or -- an unusually high-waisted actor playing Gandalf

*Part Four*
Aside for another thread: did Tolkien's Gandalf's beard include hair above the lips?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 19, 2022)

Elthir said:


> I'm not sure we certainly know what it is about Dwarf-clothing that distinguishes a female dwarf from a male dwarf


Those cute rosettes on their mail shirts?



Elthir said:


> According to the text, Gandalf's long "white" beard is supposed to have *"hung down below his waist."*


If you insist on that, would you also demand the "long bushy eyebrows that stuck out further than the brim of his shady hat"?

I wouldn't -- too much like "Gandalf the Insect" for my taste. 😳


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## Elthir (Aug 19, 2022)

Even Tolkien appears to have wanted to drop this detail about Gandalf's eyebrows -- considering his revision to the 1960 Hobbit . . .

. . . but this, along with the dried goblin blood on Beater and Biter, didn't make it into the third edition Hobbit for some reason . . . and anyway, Tolkien had published these eyebrows in _The Lord of the Rings_ too!

🐾


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 19, 2022)

Really? I must have forgotten. 

Explains why people were so impressed.


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## Berzelmayr (Aug 19, 2022)

The Gandalf by Rankin Bass had quite impressive eyebrows:


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## Elthir (Aug 19, 2022)

And check out that long white beyond the waist beard by Bakshi!


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 19, 2022)

But where are the eyebrows?


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## Elthir (Aug 20, 2022)




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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 20, 2022)

"Gandara Sensei!"


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## Elthir (Aug 20, 2022)

That's it, I've decided . . . the day ROP comes out I'm gonna curl up in my coat and watch _Kill Bill_ (again).

🐾


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## Halasían (Aug 20, 2022)

Elthir said:


> That's it, I've decided . . . the day ROP comes out I'm gonna curl up in my coat and watch _Kill Bill_ (again).
> 
> 🐾


Kill Bill the Pony?


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## Berzelmayr (Aug 20, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> So, 22 or 23 out of 37 characters that weren't created by Tolkien. Interesting.


Some more were leaked:

Thondir - Fabian McCallum (this is the famous "Gigwit")

Rían - Kip Chapman (the Elf facing the Snow Troll in the Super Bowl teaser)

Malva - Thusitha Jayasundera (a Harfoot)

Vilma - Maxine Cunliffe (supposedly also a Harfoot)


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 20, 2022)

Another new clip:


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## Berzelmayr (Aug 20, 2022)

Elthir said:


> That's it, I've decided . . . the day ROP comes out I'm gonna curl up in my coat and watch _Kill Bill_ (again).
> 
> 🐾


“I pass the test”, she said.


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## arivista (Aug 20, 2022)

I have just noticed from IMDB, that Nori Brandyfoot character is actually named _Elanor_. Is there any evidence such a name was ever used by Hobbits before Samwise Gamgee gave it to his firstborn daughter? I certainly thought it was supposed to be absolutely original name at the time.



Berzelmayr said:


> Rían - Kip Chapman (the Elf facing the Snow Troll in the Super Bowl teaser)


Where does information about the name "Rían" for Kip Chapman's character come from? I couldn't google it, except for Italian wiki without any source given. According to rumours his character is supposed to be named Selin.


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## Elthir (Aug 20, 2022)

Hmm. Well, the Hobbits used flower-names, but _Elanor_ is an Elvish flower-name in any case.

said Elthir, unhelpfully. Can't recall at the moment if there's anything else said to make this post
helpful!

🐾


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## Berzelmayr (Aug 20, 2022)

arivista said:


> I have just noticed from IMDB, that Nori Brandyfoot character is actually named _Elanor_. Is there any evidence such a name was ever used by Hobbits before Samwise Gamgee gave it to his firstborn daughter? I certainly thought it was supposed to be absolutely original name at the time.
> 
> 
> Where does information about the name "Rían" for Kip Chapman's character come from? I couldn't google it, except for Italian wiki without any source given. According to rumours his character is supposed to be named Selin.


It's from the end of an instagram post of director Juan Antonio Bayona:








JA Bayona auf Instagram: "Y así fue la reacción del público en México. Volver a la Tierra Media, mostrarla en la pantalla grande ante tanta gente y tener esta reacción fue un sueño hecho realidad. #losanillosdepoder This was the reaction of the aud


JA Bayona hat einen Beitrag auf Instagram geteilt: „Y así fue la reacción del público en México. Volver a la Tierra Media, mostrarla en la pantalla grande ante tanta gente y tener esta reacción fue un sueño hecho realidad. #losanillosdepoder This was the reaction of the audience in Mexico...




www.instagram.com


----------



## Olorgando (Aug 20, 2022)

arivista said:


> Where does information about the name "Rían" for Kip Chapman's character come from?


Rían was the wife of Huor, thus mother of Tuor and paternal grandmother of Eärendil (etc.).


----------



## d4rk3lf (Aug 20, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Another new clip:


Dear lord. 

The "powerful speech" of that woman would truly inspire me to hurry up, and jump from the cliff, so I don't have to listen these procedural messages again.


----------



## Halasían (Aug 20, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> Dear lord.
> 
> The "powerful speech" of that woman would truly inspire me to hurry up, and jump from the cliff, so I don't have to listen these procedural messages again.


Off you go then...


----------



## Lithóniel (Aug 20, 2022)

Halasían said:


> Off you go then...


Oh…


----------



## Elthir (Aug 21, 2022)

I'm not sure Huor's wife's name appears in anything ROP has the wights to?

Anyway, they do have the wights to _Celebrían_ for example, but anyway again, I think/guess/assume the question might have been more like: where does the information come from that a given character is named _Rían_ instead of _Selin_.

And if so, I don't know. Actually, I'm not even close to knowing what any of the characters are named in ROP, except for the names JRRT invented.

Edit: just realized, I'm not actually sure Tolkien's invented names fall under copywight!

🐾


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 21, 2022)

What? You mean you haven't been watching all the rant videos?! 😳


----------



## Elthir (Aug 21, 2022)

Some of them, but the non-Tolkienian names don't stick well in my skull-chamber . . . and I'm not sure to whom they were given, even if they stuck.

I do remember a "Theo" though . . . I'm going to guess it belongs to an actor playing somebody who is not Galadriel?


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 21, 2022)

I just can't understand why they wouldn't use some genuine Tolkienian names more redolent with Middle-earth feeling; "Hanna Goldworthy" for example. 🙄

More seriously, given the paucity of writing on the Second Age-- even if unpublished work is included -- is it really so surprising to see invented names, not to mention invented characters? I find a lot of this carping a little odd.


----------



## Elthir (Aug 21, 2022)

For myself, I'm not surprised at invented characters and invented names. I've been a bit surprised at some of the invented names themselves though.

I mean, what's wrong with something like _Ando Endorfin_, for example?


----------



## Erestor Arcamen (Aug 21, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> What? You mean you haven't been watching all the rant videos?! 😳


They're so well made and informative! I'll definitely be skipping the series now, especially because YouTube told me to!


#sweetamazonmonies


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 21, 2022)

Elthir said:


> I mean, what's wrong with something like _Ando Endorfin_, for example?


Or _Squinto_?


----------



## Elthir (Aug 21, 2022)

Or was it _Endo Andorfin_?

What was it *Gando*, I'm getting old!


----------



## Eljorahir (Aug 21, 2022)

The new character named Halbrand allowed my imagination to run for a bit.

"House of Haleth" + "Brandir" + broken black sword = "Halbrand"???

Also, if I recall correctly, Aragorn had a good friend in the north named Halbarad.

Maybe the new character Halbrand will have some type of linkage to Brandir of the past and Halbarad of the future??


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 21, 2022)

Berzelmayr said:


> Malva




BTW, Elthir, I wasn't pointing at you in my "carping" remark; I don't consider you a carper. Or a carp. 

Or for that matter, any kind of 🐠


----------



## Olorgando (Aug 21, 2022)

Elthir said:


> Or was it _Endo Andorfin_?
> 
> What was it *Gando*, I'm getting old!


Who are you, and who let you in to TTF??? 🧙‍♂️


----------



## Erestor Arcamen (Aug 21, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> View attachment 15095
> 
> BTW, Elthir, I wasn't pointing at you in my "carping" remark; I don't consider you a carper. Or a carp.
> 
> Or for that matter, any kind of 🐠


DELORES!!!


----------



## Elthir (Aug 21, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> BTW, Elthir, I wasn't pointing at you in my "carping" remark; I don't consider you a carper. Or a carp.
> 
> Or for that matter, any kind of 🐠



Oh I didn't think you were. But thanks anyway *SES.*

Mmmm. Carp.


----------



## Halasían (Aug 21, 2022)

Elthir said:


> Or was it _Endo Andorfin_?
> 
> What was it *Gando*, I'm getting old!


'The' Gandolorian!

Oh Carpet...


----------



## arivista (Aug 22, 2022)

Elthir said:


> I'm not sure Huor's wife's name appears in anything ROP has the wights to?
> 
> Anyway, they do have the wights to _Celebrían_ for example, but anyway again, I think/guess/assume the question might have been more like: where does the information come from that a given character is named _Rían_ instead of _Selin_.


Rían would be terrible choice, an par with "Haleth son of Hama" in TTT movie.
Selin is a little bit better, but still, it sounds to me more like something from Star Trek...

P.S. I knew I was right! https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Selin_Peers


----------



## d4rk3lf (Aug 22, 2022)

Halasían said:


> Off you go then...


Thanks bro, and I love you!!
Wooohoooo 

I'd very appreciate if you hold my hand tight during the jump...


----------



## Elthir (Aug 22, 2022)

Elthir said:


> *Part One *of a longer response on beards  (. . . ) In Appendix A, Tolkien's Gimli writes: "They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of other peoples *cannot tell them apart."*



Since I just read _Hair_ IV, and _Beards _V, in _The Nature of Middle-Earth_, I thought I might as well add the following. At one point, Tolkien notes (Beards V):

*"When I came to think of it, in my own imagination, beards were not found among Hobbits (as stated in text); nor among the Eldar (not stated). All male Dwarves had them. The wizards had them, though Radagast (not stated) had only short, curling, light brown hair on his chin. ( . . .)"*

Okay. Why note "male" Dwarves?

Incidentally, "male Dwarves" looks italicized as typed in NOME, although the general description of the text describes that it is written in a slightly hasty hand. If my eyes do not indeed deceive me with respect to the italicization here, perhaps Tolkien did something to warrant this.

Anyway, Tolkien has clearly forgotten about Cirdan having a beard, as well as "unpublished" text about Elves not normally having beards until their third cycle of life. Also published by JRRT himself, the detail that the Harfoots were *"beardless and bootless"* and [later in the text] that the Hobbits of the East-farthing wore dwarf-boots in muddy weather, and that many grew* "down" *on their chins . . . leading to the next sentence: *"No Harfoot or Fallohide had any trace of a beard"*

The Hobbits with down and dwarf-boots being well known to be Stoors in a large part of their blood.

So, whatever Tolkien meant by _male _Dwarves (arguably at least suggesting not female Dwarves), in this late text he seems to have forgotten some of what he published -- at least certainly with respect to Cirdan, if one wanted to quibble with "down" or "trace of a beard" -- and for myself, I would hold him to what was said in Appendix A . . .

. . . about the *"appearance"* of Dwarf-women


----------



## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 22, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> I'd very appreciate if you hold my hand tight during the jump...


Maybe I could. You're not the only Quendi here...


----------



## Halasían (Aug 22, 2022)

Elthir said:


> Since I just read _Hair_ IV, and _Beards _V, in _The Nature of Middle-Earth_, I thought I might as well add the following. At one point, Tolkien notes (Beards V):
> 
> *"When I came to think of it, in my own imagination, beards were not found among Hobbits (as stated in text); nor among the Eldar (not stated). All male Dwarves had them. The wizards had them, though Radagast (not stated) had only short, curling, light brown hair on his chin. ( . . .)"*
> 
> ...


So in a nutshell you're saying that _Tolkien_ himself is wrong about Tolkien.


----------



## Elthir (Aug 23, 2022)

Halasían said:


> So in a nutshell you're saying that _Tolkien_ himself is wrong about Tolkien.



Yes 

And I'm following Christopher Tolkien's lead here with respect to Tolkien's memory, late texts, and Celebrimbor: *" . . . no doubt he had forgotten that that theory *[Celebrimbor as descendant of Feanor]* had appeared in print, for had he remembered it he would undoubtedly have felt bound by it."* Of Dwarves And Men, note 7, POME

But even without this, as I always say sometimes: in my opinion, one cannot_ truly_ "revise" and idea that has already been published, unless one is aware that one is stepping on the Subcreated World.

And that goes for "one". . . and two


----------



## Aldarion (Aug 23, 2022)

Halasían said:


> So in a nutshell you're saying that _Tolkien_ himself is wrong about Tolkien.


Why would that be surprising? It is not that unusual for an author to be wrong about his own work - see for Robert Heinlein.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 23, 2022)

_Even Homer nods._


----------



## Radaghast (Aug 23, 2022)




----------



## Halasían (Aug 23, 2022)

Aldarion said:


> Why would that be surprising? It is not that unusual for an author to be wrong about his own work - see for Robert Heinlein.


I was being facetious 

I'm sure comicbookguy or any one of those ranting yotooberz will set Tolkien straight about his own works. 🤣


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 23, 2022)




----------



## Elthir (Aug 23, 2022)

"It was the "moon runes" that Elrond declared (at the end of the chapter _A Short Rest_) to have been invented by the Dwarves and written by them with silver pens, not the Runes as an alphabetic form -- as my father at length noted with relief. I mention all this as an illustration of his intense concern to avoid discrepancy and inconsistency, even though in this case his anxiety was unfounded." CJRT, note 8 Of Dwarves And Men

I think it's only natural to avoid unwanted inconsistencies, and there would be (necessarily) no reason to care about "inconsistencies" with something the public has never read.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 23, 2022)

Here's the new trailer.


----------



## TrollinSun (Aug 23, 2022)

1. Who is the Numenorian at 0:30? 
2. Can someone clear up why the symbol of the house of Feanor is on Galadriel's breastplate?
3. I hope the music is nothing like the trailer and echos the films with themes woven together
*the films have their issues but I personally find the music flawless
4. The more trailers I watch, the more confused about what is actually going on in the show


----------



## Radaghast (Aug 23, 2022)

TrollinSun said:


> 1. Who is the Numenorian at 0:30?
> 2. Can someone clear up why the symbol of the house of Feanor is on Galadriel's breastplate?
> 3. I hope the music is nothing like the trailer and echos the films with themes woven together
> *the films have their issues but I personally find the music flawless
> 4. The more trailers I watch, the more confused about what is actually going on in the show



I think that's Elendil.
Good question.
🤷‍♂️
I think, generally, it's about Galadriel taking up the cause of her dead brother Finrod and going to Númenor to seek allies, while others encourage her to "put up [her] sword" 😶


----------



## Erestor Arcamen (Aug 23, 2022)

The music in these trailers seems to me to be music they're just using to tie action sequences and things from one scene to another. I don't know if we've heard much of the actual music yet.


----------



## dcannon1977 (Aug 23, 2022)

CirdanLinweilin said:


> Darn it, I wanted something original and different this time.
> 
> I smell Peter Jackson afoot.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I don't know if anyone else is worried about the latest trailer, but it looked a bit like the 'The Hobbit' fight scenes where the 'A' team is invincible and there's no real danger present. Also, VERY worried about the Arondir character. Tolkien supplied countless characters with great stories that could come right out of the Silmarilian with a few cinematic changes for pacing or story arc stuff that would have been beautiful. No need to create new characters to meet a need that isn't there!


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 23, 2022)

They don't have rights to the Silmarillion.


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## Eljorahir (Aug 23, 2022)

TrollinSun said:


> 1. Who is the Numenorian at 0:30?



If I wasn't told this character was Elendil, I'd think it was Amandil. Before Numenor falls, Amandil is the head of the family, not Elendil. Therefore, he should be the lead character representing "The Faithful" until he sails into the West in his desperate attempt to seek aid against Sauron.

Anyone else think a bit of playful misinformation regarding character identities might be going on? Of course, I don't know...just a suspicion.


----------



## TrollinSun (Aug 23, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> The music in these trailers seems to me to be music they're just using to tie action sequences and things from one scene to another. I don't know if we've heard much of the actual music yet.





Eljorahir said:


> If I wasn't told this character was Elendil, I'd think it was Amandil. Before Numenor falls, Amandil is the head of the family, not Elendil. Therefore, he should be the lead character representing "The Faithful" until he sails into the West in his desperate attempt to seek aid against Sauron.
> 
> Anyone else think a bit of playful misinformation regarding character identities might be going on? Of course, I don't know...just a suspicion.


Did Amandil do regrettable things? I thought he was kind of Tolkiens Noah of the numenorians.


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## Eljorahir (Aug 24, 2022)

TrollinSun said:


> Did Amandil do regrettable things? I thought he was kind of Tolkiens Noah of the numenorians.


I'd say more like Moses.

Moses risks death by climbing the forbidden mountain to ask God for help in freeing his people (at least this is the Charlton Heston version).

Amandil risks death by sailing the forbidden waters into the West to ask Manwe for assistance against Sauron.


----------



## d4rk3lf (Aug 24, 2022)

So, Finrod died in battle, and not defending Beren? 

I was delusional through all these years...


----------



## Radaghast (Aug 24, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> So, Finrod died in battle, and not defending Beren?
> 
> I was delusional through all these years...


I think we should be well past the point of expecting Amazon to be at all faithful to the lore. They're taking any names they have access to and mixing them in a blender with their own ingredients.

On another note, regarding that battle scene at the beginning of the trailer, am I crazy or does that look lame? The combatants are just sort of waving around, jostling each other, shoving each other about and half-heartedly waving their weapons 😕






Also, Finrod looks like Thomas Haden Church 😂


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## d4rk3lf (Aug 24, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> I think we should be well past the point of expecting Amazon to be at all faithful to the lore. They're taking any names they have access to and mixing them in a blender with their own ingredients.



Yeah.
I wander what's next?
In next lotr trilogy adaptations, we might see Gandalf not dying in conflict with Balrog, but in some random battle.



Radaghast said:


> Also, Finrod looks like Thomas Haden Church 😂


His face expression in this shot (that was shown several times) was always comical to me.
Is that laugh? Pain? Crying? All 3?
I still can't figure it out.

Besides, it doesn't look like Finrod at all to me.
It look like some random food delivery guy.


----------



## Radaghast (Aug 24, 2022)

d4rk3lf said:


> Besides, it doesn't look like Finrod at all to me.


Also, it occurs to me that Finrod is a dude who kills a werewolf with his *bare hands and teeth,* after breaking free of his shackles. I mean, this is one of the most hardcore things a hero has ever done in the legendarium. To suggest that he would die in some random battle is pretty insulting to the character.


----------



## TrollinSun (Aug 24, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> On another note, regarding that battle scene at the beginning of the trailer, am I crazy or does that look lame? The combatants are just sort of waving around, jostling each other, shoving each other about and half-heartedly waving their weapons 😕



Agreed, and I have no idea where the directors got their inspiration for this scene.......

https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkx69i3QANgkQ4u5I-7vAUqboUNpwHC1ohq


----------



## arivista (Aug 24, 2022)

Is there any hint in the books that Finrod was bent on "hunting" the enemy? (The Orcs, presumably?) AFAIK, he fought in some Beleriand battles, but I wouldn't describe anything I remember he did as "hunting"....


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## Radaghast (Aug 24, 2022)

arivista said:


> Is there any hint in the books that Finrod was bent on "hunting" the enemy? (The Orcs, presumably?) AFAIK, he fought in some Beleriand battles, but I wouldn't describe anything I remember he did as "hunting"....


Going from memory (I haven't read TS nearly enough) I think there were proactive campaigns to eliminate orcs. But mostly, elves and men were on the defensive against Morgoth. "Hunting the enemy" makes him sound like the aggressor.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 24, 2022)

You mean he didn't say "Let's go hunt some orc"?


----------



## arivista (Aug 24, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> Going from memory (I haven't read TS nearly enough) I think there were proactive campaigns to eliminate orcs.


I think this could be said maybe about Túrin or other very active warriors like Beleg or Mablung, but about Finrod? I am not saying he wasn' a good fighter, just not a "very active warrior." He fought when he needed to defend his realm/friends, if I remember correctly.


----------



## Radaghast (Aug 24, 2022)

arivista said:


> I think this could be said maybe about Túrin or other very active warriors like Beleg or Mablung, but about Finrod? I am not saying he wasn' a good fighter, just not a "very active warrior." He fought when he needed to defend his realm/friends, if I remember correctly.


Oh, I wasn't being specific about who might have participated in orc-hunting sorties, just that it generally likely happened, as in any extended military campaign. But going back to an earlier point, it's futile to expect anything faithful to Tolkien's lore in this series. That Finrod's death, in the canon, occurs well before the Second Age scuttles that hope. Amazon will invent, mix and match, etc. as they please.


----------



## Eljorahir (Aug 24, 2022)

Galadriel: "My brother gave his life hunting the enemy."

Isn't it common for soldiers at war to call each other "brothers"? (Band of Brothers)
It seems possible to me that this character is not Finrod at all, and the scene with Galadriel taking his dagger is not a flashback.

Time will tell, precious. Yesssss. Time will tell.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 24, 2022)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> The music in these trailers seems to me to be music they're just using to tie action sequences and things from one scene to another. I don't know if we've heard much of the actual music yet.


Here's the opening title music:




And a couple more:




Apparently, there will be at least one scene in Valinor.





And a song -- I'm guessing a hobbit.





The entire soundtrack's up on YouTube.


----------



## Erestor Arcamen (Aug 25, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Here's the opening title music:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks, I'll have to check it out


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 25, 2022)

The whole thing's up to listen to straight through, with timestamps listed in the comments section:




Two and a half hours -- and that's just _Season One_! 😳


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 28, 2022)

Here's an interview with the composer:









Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power Composer Thinks Amazon Series Will 'Surprise Fans in a Pleasant Way'


Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power composer Bear McCreary (Outlander) is well aware that some fans may not be so receptive to the Prime Video series




tvline.com


----------



## ZehnWaters (Aug 28, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Here's the opening title music:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Their Khazad-Dum looks like it's from Dragon Age.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 28, 2022)

Interesting. And what video game does this remind you of?


----------



## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 28, 2022)

Thank you, @Squint-eyed Southerner for sharing the music!


----------



## Berzelmayr (Aug 31, 2022)

The first negative review I have read so far:








'The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power' is kind of a catastrophe


Amazon's 'The Lord of the Rings' prequel is full of ruined potential. Read our review of 'The Rings of Power.'




ew.com


----------



## Radaghast (Aug 31, 2022)

Berzelmayr said:


> The first negative review I have read so far:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It just dawned on me that "The Stranger" in RoP arrives via meteor. This seems oddly similar to the opening act of _Diablo III_


----------



## ZehnWaters (Aug 31, 2022)

Berzelmayr said:


> The first negative review I have read so far:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Stream of thought while reading the article:
We've already got a Warriors of the Wasteland
"KNIFE EAR"?! They blatantly stole that from Dragon Age (or, apparently D&D; I had never heard it there before).
"Rising politician Elrond" The man who's technically heir to half a dozen leadership positions is just now a "rising politician" 3000+ years into his existence?



Radaghast said:


> It just dawned on me that "The Stranger" in RoP arrives via meteor. This seems oddly similar to the opening act of _Diablo III_


Or Superman, kind of.


----------



## Tar-Elenion (Aug 31, 2022)

Berzelmayr said:


> The first negative review I have read so far:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The (Bezos owned, as the author takes pains to note) Washington Post is less than positive:
‘The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power’ is beautiful, banal boredom


https://www.washingtonpost.com/tv/2022/08/31/lord-rings-tv-show-review/





ZehnWaters said:


> Stream of thought while reading the article:
> We've already got a Warriors of the Wasteland
> "KNIFE EAR"?! They blatantly stole that from Dragon Age (or, apparently D&D; I had never heard it there before).


And Tolkien provided a perfectly good term that the Easterlings called the Elves, 
"the white-fiends: for so they named the Elves, hating them, but fearing them more."
UT, Narn i Hin Hurin



ZehnWaters said:


> "Rising politician Elrond" The man who's technically heir to half a dozen leadership positions is just now a "rising politician" 3000+ years into his existence?


In the show, it seems, *Elrond is very young. The youngest *elf around, and in need of mentoring and a father figure.


----------



## ZehnWaters (Aug 31, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Interesting. And what video game does this remind you of?
> View attachment 15327


Too many. lol Very funny, though not for the reasons they'd hoped, I'm sure. How it Should Have Ended even made fun of how it looked like a video game level.


----------



## Olorgando (Aug 31, 2022)

Tar-Elenion said:


> In the show, it seems, *Elrond is very young. The youngest *elf around, and in need of mentoring and a father figure.


_*headbang* *headbang* *headbang* *headbang* *headbang*_


----------



## ZehnWaters (Aug 31, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> _*headbang* *headbang* *headbang* *headbang* *headbang*_


lol This might explain why Celebrimbor looks...older? Despite being anywhere from the same age to younger than Galadriel.



Tar-Elenion said:


> And Tolkien provided a perfectly good term that the Easterlings called the Elves,
> "the white-fiends: for so they named the Elves, hating them, but fearing them more."
> UT, Narn i Hin Hurin


Well this character is black so I'm not sure that would work. Does this mean that ALL elves are white? I'd assumed Avari to the East or South might look different. We know their language diverged to the point we got divergence for the term Quendi (*Kindi*, *Cuind*, *Hwenti*, *Windan*, *Kinn-lai*, *Penni*; I always kinda thought Kinn-Lai sounded kinda Asian-ish).

Though the Easterlings in the Narn would have been the ones living in Beleriand so they may have only been calling the Elves there that. Still, it would only validate the complaint about Arondir being a Nandor and not a Avari.


----------



## Berzelmayr (Sep 1, 2022)

Irish Times:








Rings of Power: The new hobbits are filthy, hungry simpletons with stage-Irish accents. That’s $1bn well spent


After 20 minutes of this Lord of the Rings spinoff I’m having flashbacks to that EastEnders episode with the fightin’ villagers and donkeys walking the streets




www.irishtimes.com


----------



## Ealdwyn (Sep 1, 2022)

Berzelmayr said:


> Irish Times:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting


----------



## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 1, 2022)

It is interesting...


----------



## Halasían (Sep 1, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> _*headbang* *headbang* *headbang* *headbang* *headbang*_


Hey Gandolorian, I didn't knw you were into going to heavy-metal concerts!
 😆


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 1, 2022)

Berzelmayr said:


> Irish Times:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I guess my question for the writer would be "_D'ye ken wee Gimli, laddie?_"


----------



## Ealdwyn (Sep 3, 2022)

Berzelmayr said:


> Irish Times:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Going back to this, I have to say I absolutely agree.

You guys outside the UK and Ireland might not fully understand the implications of this, but it is not a case of _"comedy Irish accents haha!"_, this is racial stereotyping of specific ethnic groups that have historically suffered prejudice and discrimination. And not just the Irish and the Scots, but the people of Bronwyn's village are portrayed without exception as thick, evil northerners. You can't just insert a stereotype without fully understanding the complex social implications of that stereotype.


----------



## Annatar (Sep 3, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> And not just the Irish and the Scots, but the people of Bronwyn's village are portrayed without exception as thick, evil northerners.


As a non-Brit, I don't know how far this really applies to the Irish or the Scots, but I see certain parallels with the Bavarians as far as these prejudices are concerned, maybe because our ancestors were also partly of Celtic origin? 😉 
Bronwyn's village, however, is located rather in the southeast of Middle-earth, so it is all the more absurd that the unsympathetic idiots there are played by northerners, who should not actually live there. There are relatively clearly certain racist components here, officially under the label of anti-racism, of course...


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## Ealdwyn (Sep 4, 2022)

Annatar said:


> As a non-Brit, I don't know how far this really applies to the Irish or the Scots, but I see certain parallels with the Bavarians as far as these prejudices are concerned, maybe because our ancestors were also partly of Celtic origin? 😉
> Bronwyn's village, however, is located rather in the southeast of Middle-earth, so it is all the more absurd that the unsympathetic idiots there are played by northerners, who should not actually live there. There are relatively clearly certain racist components here, officially under the label of anti-racism, of course...


They have a rather simplistic view of racism as a matter of skin colour. They clearly are have no conception that racism and discrimination against different white ethnic groups even exists.


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## Aeltel (Sep 4, 2022)

Annatar said:


> As a non-Brit, I don't know how far this really applies to the Irish or the Scots, but I see certain parallels with the Bavarians as far as these prejudices are concerned, maybe because our ancestors were also partly of Celtic origin? 😉
> Bronwyn's village, however, is located rather in the southeast of Middle-earth, so it is all the more absurd that the unsympathetic idiots there are played by northerners, who should not actually live there. There are relatively clearly certain racist components here, officially under the label of anti-racism, of course...


All this stems from the “American Gaze” - its the root problem of the ROP and, to a certain extent Peter Jackson’s adaptation. The writers interpret the myth to suit their own main target audience and according to their own prejudices. 

From an American point of view, “Irish” is short hand for rustic, mystic, underdog and, for some weird reason, proto-Amercian. ”Scottish” is short hand for comedic, aggressive and drunk. “English“ is short hand for villain. Apart from the dire script, it‘s this terrible use of accents that made me switch the show off - it is racist, pure and simple. Incredible when you consider how the producers have attempted to have colour blind casting, but that in itself is a symptom of viewing everything through the American experience. 

To have Lenny Henry (who should know better) affecting an Oirish accent when his own Dudley accent would have been far more appropriate is ludicrous. For the English to be written out of a story which was deliberately conceived to provide a mythology for them is a gross cultural appropriation. Why do the Americans insist that all myth has to be Celtic?! We know Tolkien tried to avoid a Celtic flavour in his work. Why use a Welsh name like Bronwyn when Tolkien was so precise in his naming (consider the etymology and layering of Bilbo Baggins for example!)


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## Ealdwyn (Sep 4, 2022)

Aeltel said:


> All this stems from the “American Gaze” - its the root problem of the ROP and, to a certain extent Peter Jackson’s adaptation. The writers interpret the myth to suit their own main target audience and according to their own prejudices.
> 
> From an American point of view, “Irish” is short hand for rustic, mystic, underdog and, for some weird reason, proto-Amercian. ”Scottish” is short hand for comedic, aggressive and drunk. “English“ is short hand for villain. Apart from the dire script, it‘s this terrible use of accents that made me switch the show off - it is racist, pure and simple. Incredible when you consider how the producers have attempted to have colour blind casting, but that in itself is a symptom of viewing everything through the American experience.
> 
> To have Lenny Henry (who should know better) affecting an Oirish accent when his own Dudley accent would have been far more appropriate is ludicrous. For the English to be written out of a story which was deliberately conceived to provide a mythology for them is a gross cultural appropriation. Why do the Americans insist that all myth has to be Celtic?! We know Tolkien tried to avoid a Celtic flavour in his work. Why use a Welsh name like Bronwyn when Tolkien was so precise in his naming (consider the etymology and layering of Bilbo Baggins for example!)


It's Victorian Class System 101: the (clean, good, brave) Elves have their nice RP accents and anyone with a regional accent is some variety of dirty, simple and rustic. Dickens would have found it very familiar.


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 4, 2022)

Annatar said:


> As a non-Brit, I don't know how far this really applies to the Irish or the Scots, but I see certain parallels with the Bavarians as far as these prejudices are concerned, maybe because our ancestors were also partly of Celtic origin? 😉
> Bronwyn's village, however, is located rather in the southeast of Middle-earth, so it is all the more absurd that the unsympathetic idiots there are played by northerners, who should not actually live there. There are relatively clearly certain racist components here, officially under the label of anti-racism, of course...


That scene was so laughably transparent.


Aeltel said:


> To have Lenny Henry (who should know better) affecting an Oirish accent when his own Dudley accent would have been far more appropriate is ludicrous. For the English to be written out of a story which was deliberately conceived to provide a mythology for them is a gross cultural appropriation. Why do the Americans insist that all myth has to be Celtic?! We know Tolkien tried to avoid a Celtic flavour in his work. Why use a Welsh name like Bronwyn when Tolkien was so precise in his naming (consider the etymology and layering of Bilbo Baggins for example!)


Because they're ignorant and ideologically driven. Why do you think they fired their original Tolkien scholar?


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## Ent (Sep 4, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> That scene was so laughably transparent.
> 
> Because they're ignorant and ideologically driven. Why do you think they fired their original Tolkien scholar?



Please. Let us not 'generalize'. I'm an American Ent, and I consider myself only mostly ignorant..!! 😟


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 4, 2022)

We want to avoid politics here, if possible, but I'll say this: criticism of racial or ethnic stereotyping is legitimate. On the other hand:
1) It's been rampant in "Hollywood" since early days; look up "yellowashing", for example.
2) It's by no means limited to the film industry; "No Dogs or Irish" predates movies, by a long way.
3) Nor is it restricted to America, as Ealdwyn's mention of Dickens attests. As a matter of fact, Tolkien wasn't immune; for example, what dialect did he assign to the stone trolls?

As I said, there are legitimate objections that can be made, but my question is, did the people making them have similar concerns about Gimli's character? Or is this just another convenient club to beat the series with?


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## Aeltel (Sep 4, 2022)

Apologies Enting, the “American gaze” was a sweeping term that I intended to apply to the commercial and manipulative nationalistic simplifications used by some of the American media (and, of course, every country has its own version), not to individual Americans.


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## Aldarion (Sep 4, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> As I said, there are legitimate objections that can be made, but my question is, did the people making them have similar concerns about Gimli's character? Or is this just another convenient club to beat the series with?


Can't speak about others, but I definitely do. And I also have objections about Aragorn's character, Denethor's character, Faramir's character, Theoden's character... unholy Ring, is there _one _character Peter Jackson did not ruin?

But Rings of Power are far worse than anything PJ ever did. He at least mostly kept his ruinous meddling on individuals. Amazon however is clearly aiming to destroy the very soul of Tolkien's work.


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## Aeltel (Sep 4, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> We want to avoid politics here, if possible, but I'll say this: criticism of racial or ethnic stereotyping is legitimate. On the other hand:
> 1) It's been rampant in "Hollywood" since early days; look up "yellowashing", for example.
> 2) It's by no means limited to the film industry; "No Dogs or Irish" predates movies, by a long way.
> 3) Nor is it restricted to America, as Ealdwyn's mention of Dickens attests. As a matter of fact, Tolkien wasn't immune; for example, what dialect did he assign to the stone trolls?
> ...


I can honestly say that the Irish accents adopted by Pippin and Merry bothered me more than Gimli as they were used to undermine the English feel of the work and to present the characters as “stupid” (Jackson’s short hand NOT mine - see also the pointless “it comes in pints” stereotype) rather than the rather gentrified air they have in the novel. 

Gimli, up until the “tossing” nonsense had some dignity. The orcs attracted comments at the time as they use Mockney accents. Being working class with a London accent this didn’t particularly bother me as I suppose I was reconciled to this from Tolkien’s own rendering of their speech and it was consistent with the work as a whole. The issue for me is that they have deliberately chosen to replace one form of stereotype with another and are unable to see how offensive the particular stereotype they have chosen is - both from a racial and artistic view point.


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## Ent (Sep 4, 2022)

Aeltel said:


> Apologies Enting, the “American gaze” was a sweeping term that I intended to apply to the commercial and manipulative nationalistic simplifications used by some of the American media (and, of course, every country has its own version), not to individual Americans.



Not to worry. Aeltel. I rather understood your context...and was kind of trying to make a joke...but I don't think it came across appropriately.  Perhaps the wrong "icon" was chosen, or whatever these things are... 

There is no doubt that there are oceans of unfortunate 'stereotyping' done to achieve certain ends (to use one term, though significantly incomplete and well short of the full depths of it that exist.) And it's also true sadly, they leave a solid impression on many who wish only to be spoon-fed. (I think I wrote on this somewhere else.) 

So I apologize if I left the feeling that I was insulted or otherwise hurt. (Though the issue of 'generalization' should probably always be avoided if possible, I would suppose.)


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## Aeltel (Sep 4, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> Not to worry. Aeltel. I rather understood your context...and was kind of trying to make a joke...but I don't think it came across appropriately.  Perhaps the wrong "icon" was chosen, or whatever these things are...
> 
> There is no doubt that there are oceans of unfortunate 'stereotyping' done to achieve certain ends (to use one term, though significantly incomplete and well short of the full depths of it that exist.) And it's also true sadly, they leave a solid impression on many who wish only to be spoon-fed. (I think I wrote on this somewhere else.)
> 
> So I apologize if I left the feeling that I was insulted or otherwise hurt. (Though the issue of 'generalization' should probably always be avoided if possible, I would suppose.)


No worries (to adopt an Aussie idiom!) I‘m always conscious that ‘tone’ is very hard to convey on the internet and I really don’t want to upset or hurt anyone in life, let alone people who share my interests, so I just wanted to be doubly sure that the intent of my comment hadn’t gone astray.


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## Ent (Sep 4, 2022)

Aeltel said:


> really don’t want to upset or hurt anyone in life, let alone people who share my interests


I can't tell you how much I applaud and appreciate this mindset with associated lifestyle. (because it really is both, isn't it..!)


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 4, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> Please. Let us not 'generalize'. I'm an American Ent, and I consider myself only mostly ignorant..!! 😟


I apologize, I didn't mean Americans, I meant the people making the show.


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 4, 2022)

Aeltel said:


> Apologies Enting, the “American gaze” was a sweeping term that I intended to apply to the commercial and manipulative nationalistic simplifications used by some of the American media (and, of course, every country has its own version), not to individual Americans.


Japan has done similar. Though I find their stereotypes of Americans extremely humourous.


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## Ealdwyn (Sep 4, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> As I said, there are legitimate objections that can be made, but my question is, did the people making them have similar concerns about Gimli's character? Or is this just another convenient club to beat the series with?


I guess it's the difference between a character having a regional accent and the stereotyping of a group with that accent.
I've never seen Gimili as being a hostile and aggressive stereotype, which is how RoP is portraying their dwarves. It notable that both Gimli and Legolas are equally hostile to each other when they first meet in the Council scene. PJ's dwarves in the Hobbit are a diverse lot in terms of both accents and temperament.

The showrunners have made a big deal about how diverse and anti-racist the production was going to be, only to make specific decisions to stereotype certain ethnic groups. They have left themselves wide open for this kind of criticism.


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 4, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> I guess it's the difference between a character having a regional accent and the stereotyping of a group with that accent.


Yeah. EVERYONE is going to have an accent it's a matter of how you use it in your work and whether you're trying to say something with it.


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## Ealdwyn (Sep 4, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> whether you're trying to say something with it.


This


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## Radaghast (Sep 4, 2022)

Aeltel said:


> I can honestly say that the Irish accents adopted by Pippin and Merry bothered me more than Gimli as they were used to undermine the English feel of the work and to present the characters as “stupid” (Jackson’s short hand NOT mine - see also the pointless “it comes in pints” stereotype) rather than the rather gentrified air they have in the novel.


I don't hear Irish accents from any of those guys. To my ear, the hobbits have accents close to those the actors use naturally (something like a Manchester accent for Merry and Scottish for Pippin) and Gimli (played by a Welshman) uses a Scottish accent.

Anyway, I saw the episodes at a friend's house and, honestly, I have no idea why I'm supposed to care about any of it or why anyone would think it was good, even the so-called "normies". And from the showrunners' pushing this misconception that Harfoots are Hobbit ancestors to just telling their own (bad) version of the origin of the Rings of Power to the bloated pacing and bad writing, it's just not something I'm interested in following up on, even out of curiosity.


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## Ent (Sep 4, 2022)

Radaghast said:


> I saw the episodes at a friend's house and, honestly, I have no idea why I'm supposed to care about any of it or why anyone would think it was good, even the so-called "normies". And from the showrunners' pushing this misconception that Harfoots are Hobbit ancestors to just telling their own (bad) version of the origin of the Rings of Power to the bloated pacing and bad writing, it's just not something I'm interested in following up on, even out of curiosity.



OK thanks for letting us know. 
I guess we won't be looking forward to any more commentary from you then.


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## Ealdwyn (Sep 5, 2022)

Aeltel said:


> I can honestly say that the Irish accents adopted by Pippin and Merry bothered me more than Gimli as they were used to undermine the English feel of the work and to present the characters as “stupid”(Jackson’s short hand NOT mine


The actors who played Merry and Pippin used their own regional accents, they weren't "adopted" by them. And they weren't Irish. Dominic Monaghan is from Manchester, Billy Boyd is a Scot.

The fact that you percieved this as presenting the characters as "stupid" just confirms what I was saying previously about stereoypes and prejudices against regional accents, particularly northern accents. This is clearly YOUR prejudice, not Jackson's "shorthand". But thanks for proving my point.

As a northern English person, with a northern English accent, it's quite offensive to know that I would be percieved as stupid by you on the basis of my accent alone.


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## Annatar (Sep 5, 2022)

I wonder if it works at all in English to imitate different accents for cinema or television if the actor himself did not grow up in the respective region where the accent is spoken.
In Germany, there are many dialects, and when someone tries to imitate another dialect, it's usually noticed very quickly and comes across as strange, inauthentic and usually quite embarrassing.


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## Ealdwyn (Sep 5, 2022)

Annatar said:


> I wonder if it works at all in English to imitate different accents for cinema or television if the actor himself did not grow up in the respective region where the accent is spoken.
> In Germany, there are many dialects, and when someone tries to imitate another dialect, it's usually noticed very quickly and comes across as strange, inauthentic and usually quite embarrassing.


Some actors can do it and some can't. The Irish accents in RoP were terrible.


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## TrollinSun (Sep 8, 2022)

Ealdwyn said:


> The actors who played Merry and Pippin used their own regional accents, they weren't "adopted" by them. And they weren't Irish. Dominic Monaghan is from Manchester, Billy Boyd is a Scot.
> 
> The fact that you percieved this as presenting the characters as "stupid" just confirms what I was saying previously about stereoypes and prejudices against regional accents, particularly northern accents. This is clearly YOUR prejudice, not Jackson's "shorthand". But thanks for proving my point.
> 
> As a northern English person, with a northern English accent, it's quite offensive to know that I would be percieved as stupid by you on the basis of my accent alone.


In the words of Clarkson, I'm just a stewpid american but why is a northern english person offended for scots and irish?


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 8, 2022)

Annatar said:


> I wonder if it works at all in English to imitate different accents for cinema or television if the actor himself did not grow up in the respective region where the accent is spoken.
> In Germany, there are many dialects, and when someone tries to imitate another dialect, it's usually noticed very quickly and comes across as strange, inauthentic and usually quite embarrassing.


People faking Southern (American southeast) accents usually doesn't come off either.


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## Ealdwyn (Sep 9, 2022)

TrollinSun said:


> In the words of Clarkson, I'm just a stewpid american but why is a northern english person offended for scots and irish?


Because we all suffer similar prejudice and discrimination on the basis of accent


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 15, 2022)

__
https://www.reddit.com/r/LOTR_on_Prime/comments/xe2qyg


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## Berzelmayr (Sep 18, 2022)

Review at forbes.com:


> I’ve come to a sad realization: The creators of Amazon’s _The Lord Of The Rings: The Rings Of Power _know how to create spectacle, but they don’t know how to tell a good story.
> 
> There it is, scrawled in blood on the wall. The writers and showrunners responsible for this show could have won me over with good fan-fiction. They could have tossed Tolkien’s lore onto a bonfire and I’d have been perfectly happy if they’d simply crafted an enjoyable story with characters I care about.











‘The Rings Of Power’ Has Inexplicably Terrible Writing


The Rings Of Power is all spectacle and no substance, an expensive show that skimped on the script and is paying the consequences. If things don't change fast, people will start tuning out.




www.forbes.com


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## Halasían (Sep 18, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/LOTR_on_Prime/comments/xe2qyg


↑ Remember when Varking used to post here? Instead, most all we seem to get here is this crap ↓ 


Berzelmayr said:


> Review at forbes.com:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


(puts the ladle down)


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 18, 2022)

Well, views pro, con, and neutral are welcome here -- as long as the rules are followed, of course.


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## Halasían (Sep 18, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Well, views pro, con, and neutral are welcome here -- as long as the rules are followed, of course.


Of course. 😅


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## Ugluk (Sep 18, 2022)

Halasían said:


> ↑ Remember when Varking used to post here? Instead, most all we seem to get here is this crap ↓
> 
> (puts the ladle down)


What's wrong with it?


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## Elthir (Sep 19, 2022)

Which Em(m)a is in this show again?


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 19, 2022)

Elthir said:


> Which Em(m)a is in this show again?
> 
> 
> View attachment 15900


Oh, she does kinda look like a young Emma Watson. I miss when Emma Watson put effort into her performances.


Berzelmayr said:


> There it is, scrawled in blood on the wall. The writers and showrunners responsible for this show could have won me over with good fan-fiction. They could have tossed Tolkien’s lore onto a bonfire and I’d have been perfectly happy if they’d simply crafted an enjoyable story with characters I care about.


I mean...I enjoyed The Hobbit films so I suppose that's true.


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## Olorgando (Sep 19, 2022)

Ugluk said:


> Halasían said:
> 
> 
> > ↑ Remember when Varking used to post here? Instead, most all we seem to get here is this crap↓
> ...


I read the Forbes article and second Ugluk's question. The article has nothing to do with the hate-spewing filth that I detest at least as much as you do ...


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## Ugluk (Sep 19, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> I read the Forbes article and second Ugluk's question. The article has nothing to do with the hate-spewing filth that I detest at least as much as you do ...


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## Ugluk (Sep 19, 2022)

I thought it made apparently cogent comments, but since I haven't seen the episodes, can't judge them. Hence my question.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 19, 2022)

Haven't watched either. Glad I am not alone.


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 20, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Haven't watched either. Glad I am not alone.


I'm not going to either. I'm tired of giving my money to things I don't like and who's producers seemingly don't like me either.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 20, 2022)

Honestly I am not sure if I would watch but I don't have that option. All the better, I will just stick to the books until any further advancements.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 20, 2022)

Here's another Forbes article, contrasting RoP with PJ:








Amazon’s ‘Rings Of Power’ Is A Poignant Reminder Of The Perfection Of ‘The Lord Of The Rings’ Trilogy


Amazon’s ‘Rings of Power’ makes a great excuse to rewatch Peter Jackson’s ‘Lord of the Rings’ trilogy, just one more time.




www.forbes.com




"Perfection"?


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## ZehnWaters (Sep 20, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Here's another Forbes article, contrasting RoP with PJ:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Even if one DOESN'T look at it as an adaptation, The Two Towers has serious issues. Why would going to a defensive fortification when outnumbered be considered bad military policy? Why don't "the Shepherds of the Trees" know their flocks are being slaughtered? How on earth did the Elves bypass the Uruk-Hai army on their way to Helm's Deep?


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 20, 2022)

There are a _lot _more "whys" than those. Maybe, when RoP is over, we can tot them all up, and see who comes out "ahead". 😃


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## Ent (Sep 20, 2022)

Halasían said:


> ↑ Remember when Varking used to post here? Instead, most all we seem to get here is this crap ↓



Suggestion - If you enjoyed the manner in which Varking did things (whoever he/she may have been), maybe you can step into the role and post similar types of stuff to 'fill the gaps' ??

If it was good stuff, I'm all eyes, ears, branches and twigs...


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Sep 20, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> There are a _lot _more "whys" than those. Maybe, when RoP is over, we can tot them all up, and see who comes out "ahead". 😃


I don't know if there is any real comparison. If so, how do you judge them? What measures superiority? What denotes criteria?

Nothing that is modernly created in 'creative inspiration' of Tolkien's works will ever compare to the literary genius of Tolkien, true Tolkien. At least in my mind.


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## Halasían (Sep 20, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> Suggestion - If you enjoyed the manner in which Varking did things (whoever he/she may have been), maybe you can step into the role and post similar types of stuff to 'fill the gaps' ??
> 
> If it was good stuff, I'm all eyes, ears, branches and twigs...


I was just reminiscing and making an observation. We interact and discuss the Rings of Power series elsewhere. I'll see myself out.


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