# Of Tuor and Beren.



## Turgon (Sep 18, 2002)

A simple question, but one that has been puzzling me for a while. Why was Tuor, a mortal man, granted a place amongst the Eldar...?



> In those days Tuor felt old age creep upon him, and ever a longing for the deeps of the Sea grew stronger in his heart. Therefore he built a great ship, and he named it Eärrámë, which is Sea-Wing; and with Idril Celebrindal he set sail into the sunset and the West, and came no more into any tale or song. But in after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men.



Beren's fate was rather different. 



> These were the choices that he gave to Lúthien. Because of her labours and her sorrow, she should be released from Mandos, and go to Valimar, there to dwell until the world's end among the Valar, forgetting all griefs that her life had known. Thither Beren could not come. _For it was not permitted to the Valar to withhold Death from him, which is the gift of Ilúvatar to Men._



Yet both were fathers of Half-elven bloodlines and both were mighty in deed. 

So why was Tuor the exception? Why was he given this singular grace? Any thoughts?


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## Mormegil (Sep 18, 2002)

All I know is that for some reason Tuor got preferential treatment above all men. His life was so easy, he was the golden boy of the gods. 
Other men such as Beren, Hurin and Turin all performed greater deeds than Tuor, yet they are not granted a place among the eldar.

I think you just have to look at it as favouritism from the gods.


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## Turgon (Sep 19, 2002)

Well Morm, in my opinion Tuor ranks as greatly as any of the heroes of the Edain. Sure he didn't suffer the same misfortunes his fellows did, especially his cousin Túrin. But that shouldn't take away from his own deeds - he rose to become a great captain of the Gondolindrim on merit, and provided some much needed leadership to the survivors of the great city after Turgon's death.

But if it was favouritism that gave Tuor a place amongst the Eldar then it must have been favouritism on Ilúvatar's part.



> For it was not permitted to the Valar to withhold Death from him, which is the gift of Ilúvatar to Men.



It's seems that Ilúvatar alone could revoke the Gift of Death - yet why would He show favouritism one of his children? At Ulmo's request? It seems like a very un-Ulmo thing to do...


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## Ceorl (Sep 19, 2002)

quote:
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In those days Tuor felt old age creep upon him, and ever a longing for the deeps of the Sea grew stronger in his heart. Therefore he built a great ship, and he named it Eärrámë, which is Sea-Wing; and with Idril Celebrindal he set sail into the sunset and the West, and came no more into any tale or song. *But in after days it was sung that* Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men.
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Basically just because it was sung of never actually means that it happened. Remember that at that time the Elves of ME had no contact whatsoever with those in Aman. I believe the case is merely one of wishful thinking.


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## Turgon (Sep 20, 2002)

Yet the Eldar often used songs to transmit history and lore, the _Noldolantë_, the _Aldudénië_, the Lay of Leithian. I see no reason to dismiss this story as fancy simply because of the way it was passed down.


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## Confusticated (Feb 4, 2003)

I think Tuor did join the elves. There is also another mention of this in HoMe, I do not remember where or what exactly is said, but I do recall that when I read it, it further convinced me. I will try to remember to post it when I run into it again.

Anyhow, I think something was special about Tuor all along. Maybe not from the time he was born, but surely before he found the Sea. He had a stronger reaction to it than any other mortal.

I do not know why this is, but I am going to try to figure it out. Maybe someone can beat me to it.


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## HelplessModAddi (Feb 4, 2003)

Its probably a little more complicated than favoritism. Remember that Tolkien had to struggle with death his entire life. He became convinced that just as human fairy-tales are full of Escape from Death, so Elven fairy tales must be full of Escape from Deathlessness. Indeed, if anyone here was an Elf, they would probably wonder what was so special about Luthien and Arwen that they were _allowed_ to leave the world. They were in love. Maybe its the same thing here. This is not the genetic, scientific world were talking about. Perhaps Tuor spent so much time with Elves and absorbed so many Elven ideas that he accepted their world as his own. In the Akallabeth, the herald of the Valar say that the Valar hold it to be true that the home of men is not within the realm of Arda, so perhaps Tuor truly "adopted" this Earth. It is probably true that a normal Elf would not be allowed a human death.


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## Maedhros (Feb 4, 2003)

> All I know is that for some reason Tuor got preferential treatment above all men. His life was so easy, he was the golden boy of the gods.


Yes, I agree with that. I mean he did fight in Gondolin but so what?
I wonder how Húrin would have done if he had the Help of Ulmo instead of Morgoth?


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## Confusticated (Feb 4, 2003)

Yes, Maedhros, his life was very easy. Nearly a lifetime of Paradise... I would say.

He got spend his life among the elves, wander along the coast, speak with Ulmo, and he got to be numbered among the elves. 

Nevermind that his father died before he was born. Never mind that his mother left him... went off and died.

Never mind that the home that he came to know and love, and the King that was like a father to him all fell to ruin just like he knew it would.

I guess because his father wasn't killed in his lifetime, it doesn't qualify as a bad thing. Even though Turgon was like a father to him, it wasn't blood relation so it too doesn't count as a bad thing.


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## ChunkyLover53 (Feb 4, 2003)

altho some may think of it as better to live life eternally with the elves, i specifically remember how illuvator kept the secret of where men went after death from the valar...so maybe beren and all of them that didn't stay with the elves, stayed at a better place by illuvator's design than tuor did...

ne1 understand where i'm trying to get at?


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## Confusticated (Feb 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ChunkyLover53 _
> *altho some may think of it as better to live life eternally with the elves, i specifically remember how illuvator kept the secret of where men went after death from the valar...so maybe beren and all of them that didn't stay with the elves, stayed at a better place by illuvator's design than tuor did...
> 
> ne1 understand where i'm trying to get at? *


I understand, and I agree with you. It can not be known if "immortality" is a better thing than dying and leaving the world. My previous post was special just for Maedhros. 

But I do think that some people would enjoy life more if they spent it among the elves, and I imagine that Tuor would have wanted to stay with Idril, as Arwen decided to stay with Aragorn. 

PS: Two of the Valar knew where men went after dying - Manwe and Mandos.


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## ChunkyLover53 (Feb 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Nóm _
> *PS: Two of the Valar knew where men went after dying - Manwe and Mandos. *



Really? I must've missed that part in my recent reading of the Sil, but seems likely anyways. Those two would be the only two that should know, if any, where men go after they die.


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## Lhunithiliel (Feb 5, 2003)

This is a very interesting question, Turgon.
Perhaps I say so, becuase it has been "bugging" me too. 

I can think of two reasons:
1/ Beren's case was a precedent. Right? So, I don't think the Valar felt quite sure what "verdict" to give. They had been much more experienced in dealing with the Elves' lives and fates....but Men????? The "special" children of the One?????? They couldn't have possibly dared to take any decision concerning the MAN (Beren). While it was easier with Luthien - To "break the rules" was not a precedent as far as the Elves were concerned (Miriel?) The Valar had had several occasions when they had to decide the fate of certain "strange" cases among the Elves.
What I'm trying to say is that the Valar must have NOT known what to do with Beren, BUT they just discussed Luthien's request and took their decision as solving an ELF-problem NOT MAN's one.

Later, with Tuor's case it must have been already easier, having the Beren's precedent that turned out positive. They did not have any reason to fear any possible negative consequences.
The same happened with Earendil....

2/ Just as an alternative (not very serious one!) - Beren had Luthien's love! What MORE would he have wished?!!!!  

***

However, I have aquestion:

How come that the Valar can give immortality to mortal creatures ????????????? 

I know I have asked this question in another thread and I was answered that Manwe did this only when permitted and particularly authorised by Eru Himself. 
A good answer.... But then... It leads me most unexpectedly back to ............Melkor.

Don't ask me why.....It should better be a subject of a separate thread - not to spoil the present one......Although.......IF you insist..........


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## Eriol (Feb 5, 2003)

My first reaction when I read about Tuor was that Tolkien did it because it appealed to his sense of symmetry -- Lúthien was counted among Men, Tuor was counted among Elves. Elros among Men, Elrond among Elves. And so on. Probable a lame explanation, but a possibility nonetheless... I agree completely with HelplessModAddi's observation though:



> He became convinced that just as human fairy-tales are full of Escape from Death, so Elven fairy tales must be full of Escape from Deathlessness. Indeed, if anyone here was an Elf, they would probably wonder what was so special about Luthien and Arwen that they were allowed to leave the world.



I don't think Tuor's fate should be considered a 'reward', a sign of favoritism, even as we don't consider Lúthien's fate to be a 'punishment' (she was still considered 'the most beloved of her kin' even after her passing). The two races are bound to envy each other's fate. 

In any way both Tuor and Lúthien stayed with their lovers, and this is the greatest reward. (I could add Eärendil and Elwing here if only it did not spoil my 'symmetry' speculation  . But I think the 'Two Unions of Men and Elves' were a theme in Tolkien's mind before he discovered Aragorn at the Prancing Pony... so that symmetry would be only among them).


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## Maedhros (Feb 5, 2003)

> Yes, Maedhros, his life was very easy. Nearly a lifetime of Paradise... I would say.


Yes, exaclty.


> Nevermind that his father died before he was born. Never mind that his mother left him... went off and died.


Nearly perfect, not perfect.
Let's see, Tuor married an elf princess, lived in Valinorë, and was guided by an Ainur in ME.
If you compare it to being held in Angband for over 28 years under Morgoth, damn he lived in paradise. An almost perfect life. And when there was a threat of a balrog, there was Echtelion and Glorfindel to take them away.


> My previous post was special just for Maedhros.


Ohhh, I didn't know that you cared.


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## Eriol (Feb 5, 2003)

I found a relevant quote at Letter 153:

"In the primary story of _Lúthien_ and _Beren_, Lúthien is allowed as an absolute exception to divest herself of 'immortality' and become 'mortal' -- but when Beren is slain by the Wolf-warden at the Gates of Hell, Lúthien obtains a brief respite in which they both return to Middle-Earth 'alive' -- though not mingling with other people: a kind of Orpheus legend in reverse, but one of Pity not of Inexorability. Túor weds Idril the daughter of Turgon king of gondolin; and 'it is supposed' (not stated) that he as an unique exception receives the Elves limited 'immortality': *an exception either way.* "

emphasis mine. It seems that the 'symmetry speculation' is not so far off...


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