# How did weather work in the first and second ages?



## AnirudhSM (Aug 18, 2021)

How exactly did the forces of weather, rain and other aspects of topography work in the ages before the rising of the sun?


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## Elthir (Aug 18, 2021)

Perhaps a good question for certain Men -- who have traditions that refer to years before the rising
of the Sun.

But see Treebeard's Tradition, however, in _The Two Towers._ Or the Elvish fairy tale _The Awakening of
the Quendi_ (in which tale the Sun exists before the Elves awake), published in _The War of the Jewels._

🐾


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## m4r35n357 (Aug 18, 2021)

There is a brief discussion of weather features in the Ainulindale!


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## Elthir (Aug 19, 2021)

In one version of Ainulindale, Manwe says: *"Let us go to the Halls of Anar, where the Sun of the Little World is kindled, and watch that Melkor bring it not all to ruin!"* and later *" . . . and for a time Melkor departed and withdrew beyond the arrows of the Sun, and brooded on his desire." *

Seems to agree with Treebeard


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## m4r35n357 (Aug 20, 2021)

I thought at first that was from _Lost Tales_, but couldn't find it, then I tried the notorious _Ainulindale C_ and still didn't see it. So I give up, please don't tell me this is private correspondence . . .


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## Elthir (Aug 20, 2021)

*C** 

🐾


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## m4r35n357 (Aug 20, 2021)

Yeah that is what I meant


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## Elthir (Aug 21, 2021)

*AnirudhSM*

If you're wondering what my silly answers are about: although you will often find the ideas -- that Tolkien's world was once flat and that it was once sunless -- treated as "fact" on websites or in chat forums, I say it's simply not that easy.

And while some may not like it, Tolkien himself thought, at various times, that maybe he should create a Round world/pre-existing Sun mythology. The example I quoted from Ainulindale C* is just one example of a text wherein Tolkien's World is round from the start, and the Sun exists before the Elves awaken.

What about what Tolkien himself published? That should be "fact" I would think. And yet in one place where it's stated rather directly that certain Elves lingered in the world before the Sun or Moon rose . . . Tolkien himself ultimately revised it. From _The Hobbit_:

"[ . . . ] before they came back into the Wide World. In the Wide World the Wood-elves lingered in the twilight *before *the raising of the Sun and Moon; and afterwards they wandered in the forests that grew beneath the sunrise." *Changed by JRRT* to read (The Hobbit, Third Edition): "[ . . . ] before some came back into the Wide World. In the Wide World the Wood-elves lingered in the twilight of our Sun and Moon, but loved best the stars;"

Anyway here's my main argument/opinion about this: Tolkien did *not* abandon that there should be texts in which it appears that the World was once flat and once Sunless -- but that said, I also say he intended to create a multi-perspective legendarium in which* both *ideas (always round world/pre-existing Sun versus a once-flat, once sunless world) can be found, depending upon the author . . .

. . . meaning the "in story" author of a given text here, not JRRT as author.

And that's why (with tongue in cheek) I said that Ainulindale C* seems to "agree" with Treebeard, as I have also argued (elsewhere) that Treebeard's account of history refers to the Sun existing _before_ the Eldar cross the Sea to Aman.

🐾


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## m4r35n357 (Aug 22, 2021)

He never got around (as far as we know!) to updating the rest of the legendarium to remove all references to the lamps and trees, thankfully


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## Elthir (Aug 22, 2021)

m4r35n357 said:


> He never got around (as far as we know!) to updating the rest of the legendarium to remove all references to the lamps and trees, thankfully



Wink noted . . .

. . . but for _possible_ clarity for _those who haven't read HME_, the Two Trees remained as part of
the mythology in which the Sun existed before the Elves awoke -- Telperion and Laurelin were
not to be removed; and in any case they appear in author-published text of course ("that gave
light to the land of the Valar").

As far as the lamps go, again in my opinion, JRRT didn't need to get around to removing this idea
(nor the idea of the Sun and Moon hailing from the Trees) from _Quenta Silmarillion_, as it fit in neatly
with the revised characterization of the legendarium as a whole, as well as the Numenorean/Bilbo transmission.


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## m4r35n357 (Aug 23, 2021)

So, what then is the point of the lamps, trees and silmarils in this scenario? Most of the story is gone.


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## Elthir (Aug 23, 2021)

m4r35n357 said:


> So, what then is the point of the lamps, trees and silmarils in this scenario? Most of the story is gone.



Very briefly put: after the death of the Two Trees, the Silmarils (having captured the light of the 
Trees) contain the holy light of Ilúvatar. Here the Sun becomes a "lesser light" due to the ravishing 
by Melkor of the Sun Spirit Ázië (later Árië, compare Arien in _The Silmarillion_).

☀️


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## m4r35n357 (Aug 24, 2021)

OK, that is mentioned as part of the Ainulindale C* text, but I am talking about the _Quenta_ text to go with it and tell the "full" story. All existing Quenta texts that I know of are entirely incompatible with C*. I do not believe there is anything in HoME. You can probably tell I really dislike this deviation from legend to "history/geology".

I hope I have been specific enough this time


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## Elthir (Aug 24, 2021)

There isn't an explicit pre-existing-sun _Quenta Silmarillion_ because (I argue) Tolkien decided that
_Quenta Silmarillion_ was part of a largely Mannish tradition, allowing him to keep the older ideas.

That said, here's a nice example of what Tolkien did get around to doing in Quenta Silmarillion.
For comparison, the earlier version first (HME V Lost Road):

*"Now Ungoliante made a ladder of woven roped, and upon this Morgoth climbed, and sat beside her; and he looked down upon the shining plain, seeing afar off the domes of Valmar glittering in the mingling of the light. ( . . .)."*

Revised by JRRT (Morgoth's Ring, Later Quenta Silmarillion II):

*"But now upon the mountain-top dark Ungoliante lay. For a while she rested and with eyes faint with labour she saw the glimmer of the stars in the dome of Varda and the radiance of Valmar far away. Slowly her eyes wakened and took fire, and her lust increased until it overcame her fear. She began in stealth to creep down into the Blessed Realm."*

In my opinion, all an updated _Quenta Silmarillion_ "needed" was masterful touches like this, which could relate (in whatever measure Tolkien decided) to other texts in the greater legendarium, from which the reader might be able to then construct, at least part of, a different scenario.

☀️


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## m4r35n357 (Aug 24, 2021)

Fair enough, the "old" elvish traditions can be adopted by Men, while the Elves adopt the "real-life" mannish cosmological history. Face/Off!

I think I mainly had in mind the image of Fingolfin arriving in ME with the rising of Sun & Moon. I suppose you can apply a similar argument to that above.

Still, in the absence all this updated tradition being written down, I judge your view to be unassailable


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## Elthir (Aug 24, 2021)

A pre-existing-sun tradition appears in Tolkien's *The Awakening of the Quendi* for example, a complete tale published in _The War of the Jewels _. . .

. . . although the same tradition is hinted at in QS in the passage I just provided, regarding the "dome" (Dome) of Varda. Non-HME readers probably have no idea what the Dome of Varda is, but it's part of the pre-existing-sun tradition found in Morgoth's Ring.

Or should I say . . . written down in Morgoth's Ring


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