# The Reason Why Middle-Earth Had A Low Population...



## SpencerC18 (Apr 23, 2003)

In my opinion the reason why ME had such a low population is, it was the begining of our world or how Tolkien said it began in a history all but forgotten in today's world. I think he was trying to make ME a precurosor to today's world.


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 23, 2003)

Yes, I think he meant our world to be a continuation of Middle Earth. We are now supposedly in the 6th or 7th Age...
As to low population...those were ancient times. For example: They didn't have all the benefits of technology, which improves the quality of living. We must also keep in mind that thousands upon thousands died in the wars with Melko and Sauron, or even other feuds (e.g. Ar-Pharazon and his mighty fleet that tried to assail Valinor).


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## baragund (Apr 23, 2003)

Also, there were some truly awful plagues and several "fell winters" in the late Third Age that dramatically depopulated much of Middle Earth from Eriador to Gondor.

A couple of other things to note. Elves generally kept their families small. Feanor's seven sons seemed to be quite the exception. Also, you do not see many female dwarves in Middle Earth. I think this was not only a cultural thing where they were kept hidden, but I seem to recall some references in Unfinished Tales that there were not too many of them to begin with.


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## Lantarion (Apr 24, 2003)

A query that I've had (which I'm sure has been answered somewhere) is 'Why isn't the world teeming with Elves, if they are basically immortal?'


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## Inderjit S (Apr 24, 2003)

Most the Noldor were killed in the various wars from the First to the Second Age. Man also fled to Aman/Eressëa with the Sindar.

Elves also tended to have few children, the average was 4 pre-1st age (In Aman) but the figure ever lessened. 

A lot of the Avari also may have faded. In RoTK, when the Grey company are departing to the Paths of Dead, the Rohhirc Women comment on them being like 'Elvish Wight’s'. 'Laws and customs', HoME 10, tells us how some Avarin spirits took over the bodies of men. Some have speculated that the Barrow-Wight was a faded Elvish spirit in Sauron's service. 

Also the 'Herumor' of 'The New shadow' may have been a faded Avarin spirit inhabiting a man's hröa.


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## Lasgalen (Apr 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lantarion _
> *A query that I've had (which I'm sure has been answered somewhere) is 'Why isn't the world teeming with Elves, if they are basically immortal?' *


 My favorite answer is "because they kept going on suicide missions like Movie Helm's Deep"

In all seriousness, I must agree with Inderjit. Most of the great kingdoms of the first age were destroyed. Of the remnants of the wars with Morgoth (and kinslaying  ), many returned to Aman.


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## Maerbenn (Apr 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Inderjit S _
> *Also the 'Herumor' of 'The New shadow' may have been a faded Avarin spirit inhabiting a man's hröa. *


 I think you should look in _Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age_ for another reference to this Herumor.


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## Inderjit S (Apr 27, 2003)

> I think you should look in Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age for another reference to this Herumor.



Yes, he was a Black Númenórean who rose to prominence in the Haradrim along with one Fuinur. As I said it is a simple Quenyarin meaning for ‘Dark Lord’ and it is doubtful as to whether their was any connection between the two, which I think is what you may be getting at.

Man was also in it’s ‘childhood’ so to speak. I mean, if we take the latter legendarium that they awoke during the march of the Eldar (Most of Tolkien’s latter essays attribute to this, and he said that their awakening with the rising of the Sun+Moon was just a Númenórean myth) then they were roughly 14,000 years old as a race, and in their youth it seems Melkor had been trying to control their numbers to avoid their numbers growing too large:



> 'Now ye are Mine and must do My will,' he said. 'I do not trouble that some of you die and go to appease the hunger of the Dark; for otherwise there would soon be too many of you, crawling like lice on the Earth. But if ye do not do My will, ye will feel My anger, and ye will die sooner, for I will slay you.'


Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth; HoME 10

Man men were slain in purges of men in their youth, either by the Melkor worshippers slaying to non-Melkor worshippers or vice-versa. I mean the numbers of Edain that entered Beleriand were pretty small, the Bëorian’s having some 2,000 people, the Marachians some 6,000 and the Haladin an undisclosed number, though many men didn’t enter Beleriand.


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## Tar-Elenion (Apr 27, 2003)

One thing to note on the population figures given by Inderjit, for the Atani who entered Beleriand (2000 and 6000), is that these are not the total population but rather just the adult males.


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## Inderjit S (Apr 27, 2003)

> for the Atani who entered Beleriand (2000 and 6000), is that these are not the total population but rather just the adult males.



Thank you for the correction Elenion.


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## Beleg (Apr 28, 2003)

The Haladian were also said to be Just a bit greater then those of house of Boer, so we can also calculate thier numbers to be somewhere between 2000 and 3000. (men that is.) 
And also at the time of Hurin's sojourn in Brethil, by the 2nd day about 1000 people had gathered to judge Hurin (and they were believed to be old men, men of ripe age and more wisdom, so even at that time, diminished by wars and fights there were many people living in Brethil.


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## Eriol (Apr 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lantarion _
> *A query that I've had (which I'm sure has been answered somewhere) is 'Why isn't the world teeming with Elves, if they are basically immortal?' *



I always supposed this was a result of (a) a limited number of _fëar_ and (b) the "fading", or slow aging of the elven bodies. These two taken together would mean that the number of elves in Arda was preset by Eru from the beginning; and that this number would be ever dwindling in M-E because of migration to the Undying Lands and of the fading.

(This is my instinctive take on it... I have no quotes or ideas to back it up).


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## Estrella (Apr 28, 2003)

A thing that Ithryluin said cought my attention. We are supposidly in the 6th or 7th age. i disagree. i beleive we are only in the fifth. According to the Aztec Callender ( i know this has nothing to do with the thread, so get mad if you like, i don't care.  ), there were five ages, at the end of each, the human race was weeded out by thier own tools and animals who told them what they'd done wrong, and then the cycle would repeat itself... we are in the fifth and final age, according to it. and it world will end on december 21, 2021. ( cheers) also i must quote the greek's five ages, of which we are the last mentioned, the bronze. Just a thought. please correct me if i'm wrong.


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Estrella _
> *A thing that Ithryluin said cought my attention. We are supposidly in the 6th or 7th age. i disagree. i beleive we are only in the fifth. *



From _Letter #211; To Rhona Beare_



> I doubt if there would have been much gain; and I hope the, evidently long but undefined gap* in time between the Fall of Barad-dûr and our Days is sufficient for 'literary credibility', even for readers acquainted with what is known or surmised of 'pre-history'.
> <footnote>
> *I imagine the gap to be about 6000 years : that is we are now at the end of the Fifth Age, if the Ages were of about the same length as S.A. and T.A. But they have, I think, quickened; and [color=sky blue]I imagine we are actually at the end of the Sixth Age, or in the Seventh[/color].



And with that, I welcome you to the Tolkien Forum!

I always imagined the gap between the Fall of Barad-dur and "our time" to be much much more than 6000 years - Middle Earth simply seems more ancient and removed in my mind. If it was up to me, I'd say the gap is about 15,000 - 25,000 years. That is of course, only a guess.


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## Estrella (Apr 29, 2003)

-releif-
lol. i suppose you are right, and they are very different systems of time, history, ect. i guess we are all just guessing about it. since the world is gonna be destroyed when the sun goes supernova in bout 5 billion years anyway, it doesn't really matter. It would be interesting to get a more exact time though.


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## baragund (Apr 29, 2003)

Estrella,

I'm not aware of any more precise estimate of the gap between the end of the Third Age and present day than the reference from Tolkien's letters that Ithrynluin gave. 

I'll defer to the history students here, but I don't think there is a large body of evidence of what was going on in northwest Europe at around 4000 BC, especially during Tolkien's time. That would put the Third Age far enough back to avoid obvious conflicts with known history at the time, but no so far back that the inhabitants of ME would have to contend with things like the ice age, saber toothed lions, wooly mammoths (whoops, I forgot about the Oliphaunts!). 

Oh, and welcome to the neighborhood! You'll find all sorts of interesting thing to talk about here.


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## Estrella (Apr 29, 2003)

I must admit i am a bit rusty on early european history and times. Haven't had much time lately. i shall try to do research, i hate to leave a question unanswered. thank you.


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## Helcaraxë (May 24, 2003)

I think it was mainly because the free ppls of ME were often at war with someone. Throughout the first, second, and third age, the wars with Morgoth/Sauron took a heavy toll on population. However, i'm not convinved that all of ME did have a low population. We have no idea about the population of Rhun or Harad or Forodwaith. It could be that because it was mainly the Numenoreans who fought in the second and third ages against (or with in the cause of the easterlings) the dark powers, that these peoples had oppurtunity for their population to grow. However, Tolkien gives no indication of this, so its all conjecture.


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## Inderjit S (May 25, 2003)

Heres a interesting quote from Letter #347 on elven populations. (Only the ones in Lothlorien, Mithlond and Rivendell though, since this a reference to the fact that there were more men speaking Quenya+Sindarin then Elves at the time of the WoTR and the main dialect in Thranduil's realm was a Sylvanic one, since when Oropher etc moved East they adopted Sylvan cutoms.




> It may be noted that at the end of the Third Age. there were prob. more people who knew Quenya or Sindarin then there were elves did either! Though dwindling, the population of Minas Tirith and it's fiefs had been much greater then that of Lindon, Rivendell or Lorien


 _Letter #347 ; Letters of J.R.R Tolkien_


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