# The passing of Arwen



## Pantalaimon (Feb 2, 2006)

I was on another discussion board where I found myself engaged in a heavy (but healthy) debate. And this was between writers -- not necessarily Tolkien fans, though they respect him a lot. However, I want to get input from \"Real\" Tolkien fans, and I was referred her by a friend who used to frequent this site, and I thought, what the hey, let me ask them. Don\'t know if this had been discussed before though.So, here\'s the question:


> I say to you, King of the Numenoreans, not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive...But Arwen went forth from the House, and the light of her eyes was quenched, and it seemed to her people that she had become cold and grey as nightfall in winter that comes without a star. Then she said farewell to Eldarion, and to her daughters, and to all whom she had loved; and she went out from the city of Minas Tirith and passed away to the land of Lórien, and dwelt there alone under the fading trees until winter came. Galadriel had passed away and Celeborn also was gone, and the land was silent.There at last when the mallorn-leaves were falling, but spring had not yet come, she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after, and elanor and niphredil bloom no more east of the Sea.


(taken from the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen -- I was under the impression that Arwen regrets her choice of becoming mortal. Was she?


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## Maeglin (Feb 2, 2006)

I don't think she regrets her choice at all. I think it is simply a matter of realizing the grief that death can cause, when at last Aragorn died. She loved him and wanted to be with him forever, so I don't think that she regretted it even for a second, but was overwhelmed with grief at his passing.


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## Thorondor_ (Feb 2, 2006)

> I was on another discussion board where I found myself engaged in a heavy (but healthy) debate.


Well, by TTF's "standards", the chronicles' debate wasn't that heated... anyway, welcome 

My impression was  and is that she does live to regret it, esspecially since her doom is to loose everything which caused her to make her choice.


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## Noldor_returned (Feb 2, 2006)

Yes. However, I always wondered, if a clever plan was constructed, why she couldn't go to Valinor. Had she remained an elf yet still married Aragorn, could she have made the journey with Legolas and Gimli? It is said they went, and I'm fairly sure it was after Aragorn died. Yes she had given up her place, but was it possible for her to leave with them?


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## Thorondor_ (Feb 2, 2006)

> It is said they went, and I'm fairly sure it was after Aragorn died.


 Yes, in the same year of his death, 1541, according to the Tale of years, RotK.


> Yes she had given up her place, but was it possible for her to leave with them?


As an elf, I don't think so; once she made the choice of Luthien when marying Aragorn, I doubt it was reversible (though it is not totally excluded that she could have returned as a mere mortal, should her father intervene on her behalf, as Galadriel apparently did for Gimli).


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## Pantalaimon (Feb 2, 2006)

hmmm... looks like it is the same case even amongst Tolkienites. Our personal opinion is that she did regret as there are several meanings to the word regret. Dictionary.com gives the following: - To feel sorry, disappointed, or distressed about. - To remember with a feeling of loss or sorrow; mournWe believe both apply to Arwen since she made the choice before she understood the \"Gift of Men\". It\'s one thing to \"know\" something, and another to actually \"Understand\" it.


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## Noldor_returned (Feb 3, 2006)

What I meant was had she remained an elf, could she have gone?


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## Erestor Arcamen (Feb 3, 2006)

if you mean remained an elf, said screw you to Aragorn and forgot about him, then yeah she could have still went into the west, but if you mean she wedded Aragorn and all, then no she wouldn't have been able to pass into the west. Since she went with Aragorn, she gave up her mortality, her chance for the west, she gave it all up for her man. She gave up her immortality, and thus was a mortal unable to pass into the west.


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## Noldor_returned (Feb 4, 2006)

Okay. I get it now.


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## elrilgalia (Feb 9, 2006)

Even so tho, you would think they might have made an exception for her...

after all they made exceptions for the Hobbits, Frodo and Sam... they should not have travelled West either ....


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## Forgotten Path (Feb 9, 2006)

Well, Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam were all Ringbearers, and therefore played a critical role in eliminating Sauron, which was the last personification of Melkor's Evil, and thus an eneny to the Valar. So, the hobbits preformed a great service to the Valar, and were thus allowed to pass into the West.

However, Arwen's part in this was very small (contrary to PJ's version) and she had chosen to become Mortal, knowing very well the consequences. I also believe that allowing her to pass into the West would be a violation of the pact (maybe covenant would be a more appropriate word) between the Valar and Beren & Luthien.

Now, about Gimli,   . I don't know, Galadriel must have done quite a bit of work to get him over there. Of course, he was a friend of Elves, and I'm sure Aule would have had a lot to do with it.


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## Thorondor_ (Feb 9, 2006)

I agree, but that exception to an exception would make the whole elves - Men thing look like a mockery (pretty much like our judicial system ).


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## Starbrow (Feb 26, 2006)

Although Frodo and Sam were allowed to go to Valinor, they did not become immortal. They died there, and I assume the same would be true for Gimli. 

While Arwen was grief-stricken at Aragorn's death, her choice allowed her to share the fate of mankind. I'm not sure exactly what that is, but I believe she and Aragorn will be reunited after the world's end. 

I compare her grief to that of a Christian who grieves if a loved one dies, even while knowing that they will be reunited in Heaven.


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## Noldor_returned (Feb 27, 2006)

Sam never went to Valinor. He died in the Shire. As for Gimli, none now know.


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 27, 2006)

Noldor_returned said:


> Sam never went to Valinor. He died in the Shire. As for Gimli, none now know.



He did. This privilege was granted him because he was a Ring bearer, however briefly. He would have died in Valinor.

Gimli and Legolas supposedly took ship together and sailed into the West. It is hinted that Galadriel (who was just as mighty in Valinor as she had been in Middle-earth) arranged for this, on account of their special bond.


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## Noldor_returned (Feb 28, 2006)

I think it was also because of his deeds and that he was an elf-friend, so Legolas would have vouched for him.


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## Narvi (Mar 1, 2006)

There's one other interesting "exception to the rule" made by the Valar about mortals entering the Blessed Realm: the case of Tuor. He was a mortal man (cousin of Turin Turambar), but like Beren he married an Elf (Idril, daughter of Turgon King of Gondolin). IIRC, when Idril sailed over Sea Tuor accompanied her, and was said to have been admitted to Valinor - which was then the only instance of a mortal being permitted to enter. I think this is a closer parallel to the case of Gimli, as opposed to the three hobbit ringbearers who had all come into direct contact with the corrupting power of a malign Maia.

I don't think this is evidence that Arwen could have changed her mind and crossed the Sea after all - unlike Gimli and Tuor she had chosen to be mortal rather than it being an accident of birth. In fact, I think JRRT wrote somewhere that Illuvatar laid down the rules for dealing with half-elves - they got one irrevocable choice, and that was that. However, the cases of Tuor and Gimli do show that exceptions could be made.




> Although Frodo and Sam were allowed to go to Valinor, they did not become immortal. They died there, and I assume the same would be true for Gimli.




Starbrow / Ithrynluin: you both state that the mortals admitted to the Blessed Realm died. I don't exactly disagree, but I'm curious to know if know of a quote which explicitly states that this is the case. The only deaths I can think of in Valinor were an act of will of the person dying (eg Muriel mother of Feanor) or as a result of violence (eg Morgoth killing Finwe). Presumably the Valar could not lightly deprive a person born mortal of the gift of Death, but given that Illuvatar did sanction this for half-elves who chose immortality (eg Elrond and Earendil) maybe it is possible that it occured in other cases too (Tuor or Frodo, for instance)?


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## Thorondor_ (Mar 1, 2006)

> IIRC, when Idril sailed over Sea Tuor accompanied her, and was said to have been admitted to Valinor


 Where is that stated (the admittance)?


> I'm curious to know if know of a quote which explicitly states that this is the case.





Letter #154 said:


> I have said nothing about it in this book, but the mythical idea underlying is that for mortals, since their 'kind' cannot be changed for ever, this is strictly only a temporary reward: a healing and redress of suffering. They cannot abide for ever, and though they cannot return to mortal earth, they can and will 'die' - of free will, and leave the world.


 Though in Myths Transformed, it is speculated that if the hroa is stronger than the fea, the body could cling to life till the end of Ea.


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## Annaheru (Mar 1, 2006)

As far as Tuor is concerned it's the last paragraph of "Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin", and it's only stated that "in after days it was sung" that he became an elf.

If he did, it is a *very* special circumstance, and it's related to Luthien: she became mortal and died, hence Tuor's becoming an elf (I believe he did by this logic) was necessary to 'even out' the number of elves and men- to return each party to their originally intended numbers. 

Thus, no other mortal could become immortal, unless another elf (not half-elven) became mortal. That didn't, and probably couldn't, happen (see Gwindor's warning to Finduilas).


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## Eriol (Mar 1, 2006)

I think Arwen certainly regretted it, at that particular moment. Why wouldn't she? Death is quite terrifying, and probably more so for an elf than for a human. There were two things to regret at that moment -- her loneliness, and her soon-to-come death. One has to have a great deal of faith in the afterlife (as Aragorn had) to not quiver at the thought of death. Arwen's fear is no blemish upon her character. It's only natural. Hopefully, it became more bearable later, and she died a contented (though hardly happy) death.


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## Thorondor_ (Mar 1, 2006)

> If he did, it is a *very* special circumstance, and it's related to Luthien: she became mortal and died, hence Tuor's becoming an elf (I believe he did by this logic) was necessary to 'even out' the number of elves and men- to return each party to their originally intended numbers.


Well, Earendil already evened out the numbers... or maybe Arwen evened Tuor out ; but then again, we have Galador.........


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## Noldor_returned (Mar 1, 2006)

Yes, I remember reading about Tuor, now that you mention it. And maybe it wasn't the number of elves, but more a population limit of Valinor?


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## Narvi (Mar 3, 2006)

Thorondor - thanks for the quote from Letters. I lost my copy when moving house  but now I see that quote I do recollect reading it, years ago.

That seems to make it clear that Frodo, Gimli et al would have died in Valinor; whereas half elves like Earendil, Elrond would not, as they had chosen to become elves. I suppose it follows that even if Arwen had repented and sought the Havens, she would still have died shortly after getting to Aman.

This makes the case of Tuor (said to have "become an elf" despite unequivocally being born mortal) seem even more incongruous. If that had been motivated by a need to even up the numbers after Luthien, then surely another mortal would have to be 'promoted' at the end of the Third Age to make up for Arwen


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## Snaga (Mar 4, 2006)

> [says Aragorn...]"I speak no comfort to you, for there is no comfort for such pain within the circles of the world. The uttermost choice is before you: to repent and go to the Havens and bear away into the West the memory of our days together that shall abide there evergreen but never more than a memory; or else to abide the Doom of Men."
> 
> "Nay, dear lord," she said, "that choice is long over. There is no ship that would bear me hence, and I must indeed abide the Doom of Men, whether I will or nill: the loss and the silence. But I say to you, King of the Numenoreans, not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive."
> 
> ...


Worth reading the passage in full, rather than just Arwen's words. I don't see an expression of regret... merely understanding and with it, grief. The grief of mortals at the passing of the aged is something alien to Elves. She did not understand why the Numenoreans wished to extend their lives beyond their natural span until this point, and now at last she did and felt pity and sorrow.

The exchange about whether she can go into the West reveals that Arwen doesn't see it as an option. We know though, that Legolas and Gimli did take a ship, and it seems unlikely that Arwen would not have known that Legolas was taking a ship to Valinor. I therefore read this as meaning she had already made her choice, and would not change it. She did not regret it, but grief is bitter.


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## Pantalaimon (Mar 19, 2006)

Too true. We know how it is to grieve the loss of a loved one. We see your point, orc, about Arwen's words not a sign of regret because it also shows she has made her choice and stood by it -- which is very like elves. Perhaps, the regret, if regret it can be called, was that she was powerless to stop this process although she might have hoped that Aragorn would become better than his sires. He has reclaimed the throne of Gondor anyway.


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## Ingwë (Mar 27, 2006)

Very interesting thread J. I love reading the most interesting threads while I listen to music. 

First of all, Pantalaimon, welcome to The Tolkien Forum! 

*Noldor_Retirned *_wrote:_
_Had she remained an elf yet still married Aragorn, could she have made the journey with Legolas and Gimli?_
I think that she remained an Elf physically, I mean she still had specific ears and other physical marks that make her elf, but she didn’t have elven abilities, and she had become mortal. _Tolkien wrote (Akalabeth) that the Kings of Men realized that the World is round; and in spite of all the Eldar still could sail away to The West. _Gimli and Legolas sailed to Valinor because they were allowed to. However, Arwen made her choice – she became mortal. I don’t think the Valar would allow her to come to Valinor even if she changed her mind (but I don’t think she would do it, because that was the main point of her choice – to die but to live in happiness, not to be sad and never die). 

*Forgotten path*_ wrote:_
_So, the hobbits preformed a great service to the Valar, and were thus allowed to pass into the West. _
Yes, that’s true, but I remember that I read something about the journey… Didn’t they left Middle-earth because they just couldn’t leave there no more??? Wasn’t that a journey for _purification, _because Frodo and Bilbo carried such a powerful artifact as The One Ring. And that was an evil Ring… It was Sauron that the Ringbearers carried. That’s why they needed purification J 

*Starbrow *_wrote:_
I'm not sure exactly what that is, but I believe she and Aragorn will be reunited after the world's end. 
And I’m not sure what exactly this is, but I believe that Arwen and Aragorn were united after they died. I mean, the fate of the men after their death is not mentioned; that means that maybe they have something like Mandos’s Houses…

*Ithrynluin *_wrote:_
 Sam never went to Valinor. He died in the Shire. As for Gimli, none now know.
_He did. This privilege was granted him because he was a Ring bearer, however briefly. He would have died in Valinor._
I am confused… :
_‘Yes, I’m coming,’ said Frodo. ‘The Ringbearers should go together.?’_
_‘Where are you going, Master?’ cried Sam, though at least he understood what was happening._
_‘To the Havens, Sam,’ said Frodo._
_‘And I can’t come.’_
_‘No, Sam. Not yet anyway, no further that the Havens. Though you too were a Ring-bearer, if only for a little while. Your time may come. Don’t be too sad, Sam. You cannot be always torn in two. You have to be one and whole, for many years. You have so much to enjoy and to be, and to do.’_
_…_
_But to Sam the evening deepened to darkness as he stood at the Haven. And as he looked at the gray sky he saw only a shadow on the waters that was soon lost in the West. There still he stood far into the night, hearing only the sight and the murmur of the waves on the shores of Middle earth, and the sound of them sank deep into his heart. Beside him stood Merry and Pippin, and they were silent. _
_…_
_At last they rode over the Downs and took the East road, and then Merry and Pippin rode on to Buckland, and already they were singing again as they went. But Sam turned to Bywater, and so came back up to the Hill, as day was ending once more. And he went on, and there was yellow light, and fire within, and the evening meal was ready, as he was expected. And Rose drew him in, and set him in his chair, and put little Elanor upon his lap. _
_He drew a deep breath. ‘Well, I’m back,’ he said. (The Lord of The Rings. The Grey Havens)_
*Noldor_Returned*, you miss something important…: 
1482 – death of mistress Rose, wife of Master Samwise, on Mid-years’s Day. On September 22 Master Samwise rides out from Bag Ends. He comes to the Tower Hills, and is last seen by Elanor, to whom he gives the Red Book afterwards kept by the Fairbairns. Among them the tradition is handed down from Elanor that *Samwise Passed the Towers, and went to the Grey Havens, and passed over the Sea, last of the Ring-bearers. *(The Lord of the Rings, Appendix B, Later Events Concerning the members of the Fellowship of the Ring). 
Returning of the Ring-bearers is not mentioned, so we can safely assume that they died in peace in Valinor. 


*Annaheru *_wrote:_
_As far as Tuor is concerned it's the last paragraph of "Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin", and it's only stated that "in after days it was sung" that he became an elf._
_Tuor’s _fate is very interesting to me (and to you, I guess). TTF has one interesting thread about Tuor… I need to find it J 
So, Annaheru, is the word ‘became’ correct? I had English interactive edition of “The Silmarilion” but I lost it somewhere… I have Bulgarian edition of ‘’The Sil” but it seems that there is a problem with the translation. Example: _it was sung _is interpreted as _it was rumored/said/told_… I think he became immortal by a unique way – maybe The Valar asked Iluvatar about that… But I think he became a Noldo as a Bulgarian becomes American – you got some abilities but you will never become real American.


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## Thorondor_ (Mar 27, 2006)

_*



Ithrynluin wrote:
Sam never went to Valinor. He died in the Shire. As for Gimli, none now know.
He did. This privilege was granted him because he was a Ring bearer, however briefly. He would have died in Valinor.

Click to expand...

*_I think Ithy is reffering to Letter #154 to Naomi Mitchinson:


> But in this story it is supposed that there may be certain rare exceptions or accommodations (legitimately supposed there always seem to be exceptions); and so certain 'mortals', who have played some great part in Elvish affairs, may pass with the Elves to Elvenhome. Thus Frodo (by the express gift of Arwen) and Bilbo, and eventually Sam (as adumbrated by Frodo); and as a unique exception Gimli the Dwarf, as friend of Legolas and 'servant' of Galadriel.


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## Alcuin (Mar 27, 2006)

Ingwë said:


> ...is the word ‘became’ correct?... I think he became immortal by a unique way – maybe The Valar asked Iluvatar about that…


Yes, Tuor became immortal and “was numbered among the elder race”. These are the last sentences of “Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin” from _The Silmarillion_:


> In those days Tuor felt old age creep upon him, and ever a longing for the deeps of the Sea grew stronger in his heart. Therefore he built a great ship, and he named it Eärrámë, which is Sea-Wing; and with Idril Celebrindal he set sail into the sunset and the West, and came no more into any tale or song. But in after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men.


If there is a separation of the _fëar_ (souls, spirits) of Men and Elves at the end of Arda, then Tuor would be counted as if he had always been an Elf. The same would be true of Eärendil and Elwing, and their son Elrond; but not of their son Elros, their granddaughter Arwen, or their foremother Lúthien.

Notice that this choice of the half-elven might not be universal. Galador, son of Imrazôr of Belfalas, a Dúnadan of Gondor, and Mithrellas, an elf and one of the companions of Nimrodel, was the first Lord of Dol Amroth. There is no mention of Galador’s receiving any special dispensation by choosing to which race he wanted to belong. Such negative evidence is no evidence that he was not offered this opportunity, either; but my _opinion_ is that the context of the story is that Galador never had a choice: he was born mortal, lived 125 years, died, and his _fëa_ was numbered among Men.



Ingwë said:


> But I think he became a Noldo as a Bulgarian becomes American – you got some abilities but you will never become real American.


You can indeed become a _real_ American. Despite our arguments among ourselves, both petty and grievous, being an American involves committing oneself to a way of life. Then we argue about what way to live.


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