# Uruk-Hai and Free Will



## HLGStrider (Dec 28, 2002)

*Urk-Hai and Free Will*

This is totally off speculation...

The orcs were made from elves, created to be sub-human, evil creatures with no sense of right or wrong and unimpressive intelligence.... right?

Now this I'm not sure of, but I believe that Orcs existed dependant on their master (Sauron or Morgoth or whoever was in power). You could stretch this and say they had no "free will." When Sauron fell they scattered and perished...

Now we take the Urk-Hai: biggers, stronger, and smarter... bred with men... 

Here's my speculation:

What if what was especially scary about the Urk-Hai was that through their man blood they were regaining their free will?

They were obviously smarter than the average orc. They were aiding Saruman over Sauron... etc.

I doubt that they would've perished automatically when Sauron died.. but would they have perished when Saruman did? In other words was it just that mastership of them was different?

If they were regaining their free will it would be possible to create a race that could stand beside men and elves in intelligence and cunning without having even the slightest inclination for good or a conscience.

Frightening. 

Of course the arguement could be that as free will increased the inclination for good would slowly arise... and that is what this thread is about... arguements on this basic subject. 

What do you think?

Elgee.


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## Aglarthalion (Dec 28, 2002)

*Re: Urk-Hai and Free Will*



> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> This is totally off speculation...
> 
> The orcs were made from elves, created to be sub-human, evil creatures with no sense of right or wrong and unimpressive intelligence.... right?


I think so.


> Now this I'm not sure of, but I believe that Orcs existed dependant on their master (Sauron or Morgoth or whoever was in power). You could stretch this and say they had no "free will." When Sauron fell they scattered and perished...


Yes, I agree. Without their master, Orcs (with their low intelligence and high dependancy levels), would have been hunted down and destroyed. As they would have had no guidance, their numbers would have succumbed to confusion, further leading to their demise.


> Now we take the Urk-Hai: biggers, stronger, and smarter... bred with men...


...meaning lesser dependance on their master(s), and more ability to think and act for themselves.


> Here's my speculation:
> 
> What if what was especially scary about the Urk-Hai was that through their man blood they were regaining their free will?


That would have indeed caused problems for their masters if the Uruk-Hai ever awoke to the fact of taking advantage of their free will.


> They were obviously smarter than the average orc. They were aiding Saruman over Sauron... etc.


Yes, they were more intelligent, and served Saruman over Sauron.


> I doubt that they would've perished automatically when Sauron died.. but would they have perished when Saruman did? In other words was it just that mastership of them was different?


Well, I think they would have survived after Sauruman's death. IMO, because of the higher level of free will instilled in the Uruk-Hai, they would have been able to continue on, perhaps under the command of Sauron, because I don't believe the master makes any difference. I think that one of the elements of the free will of the Uruk-Hai was the ability to understand the need of *a* master, and so when Sauruman died, his Uruk-Hai would have soon willingly (had he still existed) become under the command of Sauron (or any other dark master). But then again, they may or may not have, as your second point shows. 


> If they were regaining their free will it would be possible to create a race that could stand beside men and elves in intelligence and cunning without having even the slightest inclination for good or a conscience.


Well, it is very possible they might have decided to become a race by themselves, instead of being under the command of a master who would use them as mere pawns in battle. If the Uruk-Hai did realise they would be able to separate from their past service (but still retain their evil nature), then it is very possible they could become their own race, without the need for a master. Perhaps the only reason they followed Saruman in the first place was because they did not think they would be able to live without a master, but I think it is possible for them to live as a standalone race. But I do not know if they would choose to do so or not. 


> Frightening.


Very. 


> Of course the arguement could be that as free will increased the inclination for good would slowly arise... and that is what this thread is about... arguements on this basic subject.


Good point. If the Uruk-Hai free will increased, it may or may not have lead to a change in the fabric of the basic Uruk-hai nature. Perhaps Sauruman rooted evil so deep within their character, that even if they had free will, they would still perfom evil, just without order to do so. :/ Then again, the free will of the Uruk-Hai may have eventually made them realise that they were evil, and so a change could very possibly have occurred. My opinion is that the basic nature of the Uruk-Hai would never change as a whole (maybe it's possible that a few certain groups of the Urul-Hai would become good), and that the incilation for evil would always dominate the nature of the Urul-Hai race.


> What do you think?


What I said in my post. 

Regards

Aglarthalion Ainagil


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## HLGStrider (Dec 28, 2002)

Thanks for the in depth response.

As with all speculatory posts, we cannot be sure... but we can speculate.

Any one else with an opinion?


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## Celebthôl (Dec 28, 2002)

let me get this strait, your sayin that Orcs turn good?

i have thought this many time, that they may become good, because how can they saty bad if nuthing bad is done to them? if they have no "Dark Lord" to lie to them and wot-not, and only have goos things about them all the time then i think they would turn good!

Thôl


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## HLGStrider (Dec 28, 2002)

I don't think it was what was done to them, but what was done to their ancestors... that somehow the good and free will had been removed from their bloodline, but yes, part of the question was if men were bred with them if they could regain the good and/or the free will...

or if they would just stay as nasty as ever.


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## ltas (Dec 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> *The orcs were made from elves, created to be sub-human, evil creatures with no sense of right or wrong and unimpressive intelligence.... right?
> 
> Now this I'm not sure of, but I believe that Orcs existed dependant on their master (Sauron or Morgoth or whoever was in power). You could stretch this and say they had no "free will." When Sauron fell they scattered and perished...
> *



In general it's a very interesting theory, HLG. However, when I think back to Hobbit where the readers were first introduced to Orcs, the description of the Orcs of Misty Mountains gave me the impression of a well organised independent society, governed by capable leaders. Also, I think I remember it to be mentioned in the Hobbit that Orcs where very talented in inventing and creating cunning devices for warfare and prisoner inquisition. In my opinion that could be considered to be a indication of intelligence.

Still, your theory is intrigueing.


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## Celebthôl (Dec 29, 2002)

they are obviously inteligent they have multiple speeches, but isnt i written that it isnt known where they came from, just Christopher (sp) found sum notes sayin that it was elves?! but then it was also said that he used men, it was never fully explained properly!!!

Thôl


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## Calimehtar (Dec 29, 2002)

*Perhaps the only reason they followed Saruman in the first place was because they did not think they would be able to live without a master* 

Remember the power of Sarumans tongue. He could have convinced the Uruk-hai to do as he said. Like he convinced Wild Men to turn on Rohan.


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## Aglarthalion (Dec 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Calimehtar _
> *Remember the power of Sarumans tongue. He could have convinced the Uruk-hai to do as he said. Like he convinced Wild Men to turn on Rohan. *



Ah yes, that is another possibility.


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## Eriol (Dec 30, 2002)

I agree with Itas. In the Hobbit the orcs were organized and had free-will, otherwise there would be no trouble when there were no Dark Lord around. But they go to Erebor to plunder on their own. Also, they raided the villages of Men in the valley of the Anduin. When we think of the War between Dwarves and Orcs, it seems that the entire 'Orcdom' of that area was mobilized without a corresponding Dark Lord. 

... unless the Balrog or the Necromancer were already at work. I don't remember any foul deeds of the Orcs before the Necromancer appeared. Could he be that he (or the Balrog) were the will behind these actions? But if we assume that, we have to assume that (old-fashioned) Trolls were even more 'chained' to a Dark Lord. The conversation between Tom, Bert and Bill do not give this impression. On the whole, I think they had free-will when they were on their own, but were easily 'recruited' by a Dark Lord, whether because of a basic flaw in their beings (with roots in Morgoth's mischief) or because of greed/fear.

Can anyone check on the Tale of Years when was Celebrían attacked? This is one instance I recall in which the attack may have occurred while there was no Dark Lord around, but I am not sure.

Good question!


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## krash8765 (Dec 30, 2002)

i dont think even though that the uruk-hai had free will that they would ever become good. They were built with the same ideals of regular mordor orcs and their hatred for all other races. They were too warlike and remember they were built to "destroy the race of men". So i doubt they could ever undue that core motive unless they survived on their own for a few thousand years.


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## ltas (Dec 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Eriol _
> *Can anyone check on the Tale of Years when was Celebrían attacked? This is one instance I recall in which the attack may have occurred while there was no Dark Lord around, but I am not sure.*



It would be interesting to find it out. (If no-one has a book at hand, I'll try to check it tonight.) It does sound likely that the Orcs of the Misty Mountains could have been governed from Dol Guldur. Where Orcs capable to exist independently, without the guidance of a supreme over-lord or did they need some evil power to give them courage and wisdom? 

Another question this discussion has raised in me is if Orcs were indeed born with an "evil soul" or is their malice a product of a cruel and ruthless environment in which they were raised. Is it possible to change Orcs' nature? Is it possible to awaken compassion and kindness in the heart of an Orc?


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## HLGStrider (Dec 30, 2002)

I can just see Frodo and Legolas leading a "Save the Orcs" campaign...

Celebrain was attacked in 2509. Sauron was already taking shape in 2060.

The reason I thought they didn't have free will was the way they scattered like ants after Sauron fell... 

The five armies could've been Sauron's idea, because according to Gandalf he'd considered using Smaug... hence the idea of taking the land that had once belonged to his hopeful ally would've been appealing.


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## ltas (Dec 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> *I can just see Frodo and Legolas leading a "Save the Orcs" campaign...*



How dare you to laugh at my noble "Orcs are people too" campaign !


I checked the Tale of Years too. There seems to be a notable connection between the activity of Orcs and Sauron's presence and state of strength. For example:

ca 1100 - the Wise discover that an evil power has made a stronghold at Dol Guldur.
ca 1300 - Evil things begin to multiply again. Orcs increase in the Misty Mounains.

2460 - Sauron returns to Dol Guldur.
ca 2480 - Orcs begin to make secret strongholds in the Misty Mountains as to bar all the passes into Eriador.


I guess Orcs need someone to motivate them.


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## HLGStrider (Dec 31, 2002)

Or someone to control them... 

The Orcs were, however, began not by Sauron but by Morgoth... Perhaps it is somehow he who gives them their will... and perhaps, as his chief guy, Sauron just manipulates it.

So without Sauron there would still be orcs... BUT they would need another dark force to be seriously organized.


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## Bombadillo (Jan 2, 2003)

I dont think you can control beings from the void...


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## Eriol (Jan 2, 2003)

> ca 1100 - the Wise discover that an evil power has made a stronghold at Dol Guldur.
> ca 1300 - Evil things begin to multiply again. Orcs increase in the Misty Mounains.
> 
> 2460 - Sauron returns to Dol Guldur.
> ca 2480 - Orcs begin to make secret strongholds in the Misty Mountains as to bar all the passes into Eriador.



I was pondering this. It appears that the "evil power" was some or all of the Ringwraiths (since Sauron only got there in another 1300 years). Presumably they were acting on their own (or did Sauron issue commands even before he took shape?). So you do not have to be top brass to influence orcs. Maybe the biggest orc around had this effect. Added to this the descriptions in the Hobbit (the Great Goblin comes to mind) and the episodes described in the Appendices about the Folk of Dúrin (Azog didn't seem to lack free will there -- by the way, just as Uglúk, Grishnakh, Shagrat, etc.), and I still think they had free will. Perhaps Sauron infused so much power in them _when in battle_ that after he passed they became disoriented. But I think they had as much free will as their forefathers, and given time (maybe a looong holiday in the Undying Lands?) they might turn good. But they would never become pretty, I fear.


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## HLGStrider (Jan 2, 2003)

Good points, Eriol... 

The only creatures who probably lack free will are the Ring Wraiths...


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## HLGStrider (May 11, 2004)

time to resurect an old thread. . .any new comments?


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## Hobbit-GalRosie (May 23, 2004)

Well, first off, Tolkien couldn't make up his mind as to where Orcs had come from, but he did decide definitely that they _hadn't_ been Elves. He tried coming up with ways they could be Men, even though supposedly Men only awakened with the coming of the sun and there were Orcs at the Battle Under the Stars. I think this was the same time he was trying to change the story about the Two Trees to fit with modern astronomy, so then there must have been a sun and moon from the beginning. He also posed the theory that they might have been bred from beasts, because they had trouble understanding even their own language and this might be seen as only mimicry, like a parrot imitating the human voice. Also, the wording in the Silmarillion always included phrases implying that it was later said, for example by "the wise or Eressea" that captured Elves were probably the stock from which Morgoth bred Orcs, it was never stated as an irrefutable fact, at least as far as I recall. I think I've got all these facts straight, but here's a thread where they had a big honking debate about it in case I haven't: http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?t=6548&page=1&pp=15

Whoo, now that I've got that all out in the open, I guess it does seem like what with the societies portrayed in the Hobbit, probably Orcs couldn't have been entirely beast, though some kind of cross-breed between men and beasts would be possible, which I think Tolkien mentioned. The question he kept coming back to was whether Eru would actually have provided a soul for such creatures, which I think is why he came up with the beast idea. Of course if we can say definitively that they didn't have an immortal soul like humans then it seems plausible that they did indeed depend entirely on whoever commanded them. If, however, they were corrupted men then it seems that something of free will must have remained, and they could have chosen to renounce their evil ways, though it would have to be difficult anyway.

I'd like to comment however, that somewhere either in the Sil or HoMe there was something about how some of the Maiar corrupted to evil service sometimes took the form of Orcs, but larger, and so there were legends of how these great chieftains would command in battle, perhaps being slain, yet still reappear to fight again later. This might be a good explaination of Goblin Kings, etc., provide a will easily strong enough to command and organize them whatever their origin, indepent of Sauron _or_ in collaboration with him.


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## Grond (May 23, 2004)

Hobbit-GalRosie said:


> Well, first off, Tolkien couldn't make up his mind as to where Orcs had come from, but he did decide definitely that they _hadn't_ been Elves. He tried coming up with ways they could be Men, even though supposedly Men only awakened with the coming of the sun and there were Orcs at the Battle Under the Stars. I think this was the same time he was trying to change the story about the Two Trees to fit with modern astronomy, so then there must have been a sun and moon from the beginning. He also posed the theory that they might have been bred from beasts, because they had trouble understanding even their own language and this might be seen as only mimicry, like a parrot imitating the human voice. Also, the wording in the Silmarillion always included phrases implying that it was later said, for example by "the wise or Eressea" that captured Elves were probably the stock from which Morgoth bred Orcs, it was never stated as an irrefutable fact, at least as far as I recall. I think I've got all these facts straight, but here's a thread where they had a big honking debate about it in case I haven't: http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?t=6548&page=1&pp=15
> 
> Whoo, now that I've got that all out in the open, I guess it does seem like what with the societies portrayed in the Hobbit, probably Orcs couldn't have been entirely beast, though some kind of cross-breed between men and beasts would be possible, which I think Tolkien mentioned. The question he kept coming back to was whether Eru would actually have provided a soul for such creatures, which I think is why he came up with the beast idea. Of course if we can say definitively that they didn't have an immortal soul like humans then it seems plausible that they did indeed depend entirely on whoever commanded them. If, however, they were corrupted men then it seems that something of free will must have remained, and they could have chosen to renounce their evil ways, though it would have to be difficult anyway.
> 
> I'd like to comment however, that somewhere either in the Sil or HoMe there was something about how some of the Maiar corrupted to evil service sometimes took the form of Orcs, but larger, and so there were legends of how these great chieftains would command in battle, perhaps being slain, yet still reappear to fight again later. This might be a good explaination of Goblin Kings, etc., provide a will easily strong enough to command and organize them whatever their origin, indepent of Sauron _or_ in collaboration with him.


I've been on both sides of this argument. Tolkien theorizes about different origins of Orcs... especially in HoME X but... I'm not sure that what's written there can UNDO what is laid down in the Silmarillion. Regardless of their origin, they are inextricably entwined with the evil will of their creator/perverter. That entity would be my boss, Melkor/Morgoth. In his absence... the leadership role would definately be delegated to his chief Lieutenant... Sauron. If Sauron was indisposed (his out of body experience and all) his chief Lieutenant (in this case Captain) would take command (can we say Witch-king or Lord of the Ringwraiths?). 

There is little doubt that with the reoccupation of Dol Goldur in 1100 that they began working (aka putting matters in order) with the Orcs of the Misty Mountains as well as those that were in Moria (can we say AZOG!!??).

As most of you know, I haven't done any real Tolkien research in over a year but... maybe in this case I will. I do remember clearly that Tolkien's "vision" of the Orc (whether common orc or giant Uruk) was one of an inherent corrurpted and unredeemable creature. But... then again, I seem to remember a HoME discussion where he addresses this very issue. 

I'll get back to you on this one.

Cheers,

grond (the birthday boy!)


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## HLGStrider (May 25, 2004)

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, GROND!

HGR, I'm not exactly able to comment upon the HoME, so I'm basing my Orc theory totally on the Sil. I've never been able to get a good copy of the HoMe. . .or any copy for that matter.


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## Hobbit-GalRosie (Jun 9, 2004)

Yeah, that's why I thought I'd post that stuff, to clarify things and so people would know some of what was said there. It's quite a mouthful, though, and probably not worth the trouble. Who else do I expect to be obsessed enough to read all that?

But I do think that the thing about Maiar Orc chieftains would explain how there could be independant Orc-societies whether or not they had free will. I can't remember where that's from though, it might actually have been UT also, I don't own any books other than the Sil, so this is based on what I remember from when I got them from the library. I like best the idea that they were mindless beasts myself, because I don't like to think any reasoning people could be so wholly corrupted; if not irredeemable, since God surely could not allow that, then at least closely approaching it. But that's only what I like, not what I think is most probable.


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