# The One Ring, Elrond & 3000 years....



## roguelion (Nov 10, 2002)

A thought just occured to me, I noticed when I was reading the book a while back, and it was mentioned in the movie about a specific time period and the ring..When Elrond was telling about the last stand of Men and Elves. He says he was thee 3000 years ago, and that he lead Isildur up into Mt.Doom to destroy the ring...agreed. Well he also was aware that Isildur was "Corrupted" by the rings power, and walked away, right. After that Isiudur was killed by Orcs swimming across a river and the ring was lost until Smeagol found it. My question is this....how come, in the 3000 years that followed, did not Elrond and the Elves seek out the One ring and try to destroy it, did they think it lost, and what of the Miar? Surely they knew of it too, right...well im interested in all your answers...

RogueLion


----------



## Wolfshead (Nov 10, 2002)

Possibly they did think of searching for it, maybe they did, I don't know. It's beyond the realms of my knowledge. Perhaps they knew what happened to Isildur, and they realised they wouldn't have had a chance of finding the Ring, so they didn't bother. That would make sense.


----------



## Celebthôl (Nov 10, 2002)

how about they thought it had been washed away down the anduin and was lost forever, all the wize baring maybe gandalf thought this


----------



## LadyGaladriel (Nov 10, 2002)

They simply had absoutly no idea where it was. There also seemed like there would be no need of it if its master was destroyed. 
After Dear Bilbo found the ring Gandalf has a sneaking suspision that it was the One ring but it wasn't until he actually delved deep into ancient records that he found out that it was for sure.


----------



## Scooter (Nov 11, 2002)

*No One?*

Smeagol -- I thought that one survived and returned to Arnor with the shards of Isuldur's sword and other hierlooms?

Anyway -- I think it would have been quite impossible to find a ring in great river and they wouldn't have seriously considered looking . . .


----------



## HLGStrider (Nov 11, 2002)

Isildur probably would've sent Ohtar away before the battle had grown too thick, and I always assumed the battle "moved" in that time, with I's troops fleeing and the orcs persuing. Also I would've tried to get as far away with the ring... and Saurmen's excuse of the ring being washed away to sea was probably not origenal. I can imagine the elves assuring themselves of this.


----------



## Rogue666666 (Nov 11, 2002)

Though this doesn't sound like the Elves, maybe they simply did not want to know were it was, perhaps they only cared that no one possesed it and no one had found it, so it wasn't a threat. Even at the Council of Elrond many thought that hiding it or casting it into the sea would be a good idea.


----------



## Proudfoots (Nov 12, 2002)

The heart and soul of the Elves on Middle Earth lie in the dead marshes. The best and brightest followed Gilgalad into battle, though they won the battle, they, as a people were defeated spiritually.

Rather like the French during WWII, the spirit to fight had been destroyed in all but a few. The elves lost their will to fight after that, sure, there were a few keeping the old days alive, Lothlorien, Rivendell, but there was always a slow trickle of elves to the west.

They simply didn't care about middle earth anymore, the most pro-active was elrond, and he is half-elven. The elves make great couch sitters, great commentators, but when it comes to actions they are simply too busy worrying about their immortality.

Really, why lose ever lasting life over a silly ring when you can just hop on the next boat west?

'foots


----------



## Elu Thingol (Nov 12, 2002)

> _Posted by Smeagol_
> In fact no-one really knew of Isildur's final moments. As he was hunted by the pack of orcs and was then killed when the Ring betrayed him, there was no-one around.



You make it sound like it was the ring that killed him. When in actuality it was orc archers who shot their arrows through his throat.



> thirdly, that the Orcs had left watchers on the west bank armed with bows to intercept any who might escape the battle and flee to the River(for traces of their camps were found, one close to the borders of the Gladden Fields)



The spot where Isildur died was throughly searched. When the ring could not be found and Saruman procalimed it gone forever the search was abandoned


----------



## Elu Thingol (Nov 13, 2002)

> _Posted by Smeagol_
> BTW I did not say the Ring killed Isildur, I said it betrayed him as it slipped from his finger and made him visible while he was swimming, so he made an easy target for the orcs' arrows.



But you did not say that, you said and I quote there was "no-one around".

I think I know what you meant I was just trying to clarify your post.


----------



## Eledhwen (Nov 13, 2002)

The Elves were well aware of the corrupting power of the ring. Only those who knew where Isildur fell and who believed they could control the ring's power would be likely to search for it. Apart from Sauron, only Saruman fitted that bill in the whole 3 millennia. Saruman found the Elendilmir and probably desecrated Isildur's bones, but the ring had already gone. Saruman, being of the same order as Sauron, might be able to control the ring, but would the amount of Sauron's self within the ring mean that Sauron would control Saruman? Hmm!


----------



## Proudfoots (Nov 13, 2002)

I just had an interesting thought.
Saruman loses a battle of wills with Sauron after looking to long into the Palantir, but this was when Sauron was growing in power.

If Saruman had managed to get a hold of the ring after the battle of five armies, I doubt that Sauron would have been strong enough to take control of him. Saruman, though a bit of a wiener, is no cheesecake.
He has quite a strong will and could, probably have seized control of the ring after Sauron was chased out of Dol Guldur

'foots


----------



## Scooter (Nov 13, 2002)

*Lord Saruman*

Many in ME would have had the power to wield the ring and usurp Sauron but all would have been tainted by its evil. 

Even Gandalf knew to avoid the temptation . . .


----------



## Lhunithiliel (Nov 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by roguelion _
> A thought just occured to me, I noticed when I was reading the book a while back, and it was mentioned in the movie about a specific time period and the ring..When Elrond was telling about the last stand of Men and Elves. He says he was thee 3000 years ago, and that he lead Isildur up into Mt.Doom to destroy the ring...agreed. Well he also was aware that Isildur was "Corrupted" by the rings power, and walked away, right. After that Isiudur was killed by Orcs swimming across a river and the ring was lost until Smeagol found it. *My question is this....how come, in the 3000 years that followed, did not Elrond and the Elves seek out the One ring and try to destroy it, did they think it lost, and what of the Miar? Surely they knew of it too, right...well im interested in all your answers...*


To get back to the topic... 
It is well known that the Elves felt the power of the One while it was still on Sauron's hand. So they took off theirs and did not try to use them as they knew that the One might take power over them.
The Elves however, also knew too well about the defeat of Sauron and about the cutting off the ring and that Isildur had it...and that Isildur later had perished.
So, when the ring had disappered, they must have felt its absence, too . Because in these 3000 years they surely used their rings and they must have noticed that the powers of these rings were free! 
Therefore, the Elves might have really thought that the One had been washed away to the great sea and lost forever for them just as well as for their enemy... 
On the other hand, I find it strange that the Elves, especially the Noldor, who knew well that a Maia can not be simply killed once and for good, did not care too much about what had happened to the diminished spirit of the defeated Maia (Sauron)! Didn't they thought of the time when this spirit would return?


----------



## Eledhwen (Nov 13, 2002)

> _posted by scooter_: Many in ME would have had the power to wield the ring and usurp Sauron but all would have been tainted by its evil.


I'm not sure that they would have been able to usurp him. Not just Gandalf, but Galadriel too saw the danger. Any lesser being would certainly have come under Sauron's influence. Saruman was corrupted just through a palantír (thanks 'foots). The Ring itself had much of Sauron's being in it. I believe that while both Sauron and the Ring existed, even when apart, Sauron's will would have prevailed over any bearer intent on domination. I believe that with evil comes a measure of blindness (at least in stories it does). Sauron discovered his when Frodo put the ring on at the Cracks of Doom. This same blindness would have caused the downfall of anyone trying an earlier coup against Sauron.


----------



## Elu Thingol (Nov 13, 2002)

> _Posted by Eledhwen_
> I believe that while both Sauron and the Ring existed, even when apart, Sauron's will would have prevailed over any bearer intent on domination.



This is a false opinion which many hold. Let's look at the facts

From a letter by JRR Tolkien to Milton Waldman, 1951


> "Unless some other seized it and became possessed of it. If that happened the new possessor could(if sufficiently strong and heroic by nature) *challenge Sauron, become master of all that he had learned or done since the making of the One Ring, and overthrow him and usurp his place.*



There you have it


----------



## Elu Thingol (Nov 13, 2002)

Did you read my post Smeagol? Tolkien himself says that Sauron could be usurped. How can you disagree with that?


----------



## Eledhwen (Nov 14, 2002)

> _letter from JRRT to Milton Waldman 1951_: "Unless some other seized it and became possessed of it. If that happened the new possessor could(if sufficiently strong and heroic by nature) challenge Sauron, become master of all that he had learned or done since the making of the One Ring, and overthrow him and usurp his place.


The letter you quote was written in 1951. By the time LotR was finalised, Gandalf wouldn't dare even touch the ring, Galadriel refused it because of what it would turn her into and Frodo was overcome by it at the last. The Council of Elrond could think of no-one who could safely wield the ring. Even the timeless Tom Bombadil was not an option (excellent article on his omission from PJ's work in www.hollywoodjesus.com/lord_of_the_rings.htm by the way - though the auto-editor has changed Bombadil to Boswell!).

JRRT's Middle Earth was constantly evolving, and in my opinion the published story refutes the earlier letter. No-one could usurp Sauron by wielding his ring.


----------



## Proudfoots (Nov 14, 2002)

Eledhwen, how wrong you are, Gandalf speaks of using the ring to correct wrongs, how tempted he'd be to use if for good... as galadriel says, i don't have the book with me, but both of these characters say that they would use the ring and Galadriel definitely mentions that she would replace the dark lord with a dark queen.

replace...usurp

same thing

'foots


----------



## Elu Thingol (Nov 15, 2002)

> _Posted by Eledhwen_
> JRRT's Middle Earth was constantly evolving, and in my opinion the published story refutes the earlier letter. No-one could usurp Sauron by wielding his ring.



Your opinion, yes that is what it is, an opinion. For you have yet to back up your opinion with fact. While I base my whole post on fact. Would you mind telling me how the published story refutes the earlier letter? I see no incongruencies. Also, because the topic isn't mentioned directly(indirectly i.e. Galadriel, Gandalf) in the book, Tolkien's letter is the next best thing. If you don't agree with Tolkien on the subject I don't know why you would agree with me.


----------



## Eledhwen (Nov 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Elu Thingol_: Would you mind telling me how the published story refutes the earlier letter?


I can only repeat what I've already said. LotR makes it plain that no-one can safely wield the ring to try to usurp Sauron


> _Frodo_: 'Will you not take the Ring?' _Gandalf_:No! With that power I should have power too great and terrible. And over me the Ring would gain a power still greater and more deadly....Do not tempt me! For I do not wish to become like the Dark Lord himself. Yet the way of the Ring to my heart is by pity, pity for weakness and the desire of strength to do good. Do not tempt me! I dare not take it.... '





> _Galadriel_: 'And now at last it comes. You will give me the Ring freely! In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair!'



Do these sound like the words of people who think that becoming ring-wielders would bring good, or evil? In the debate at the Council of Elrond, Galdor says:


> 'What power still remains lies with us, here in Imladris, or with Círdan at the Havens, or in Lórien. But have they the strength, have we here the strength to withstand the Enemy, the coming of Sauron at the last, when all else is overthrown?' _Elrond_: I have not the strength, neither have they.'



Where is the evidence within LotR (which is the later, published work) that the ring can be used for good?


----------



## Elu Thingol (Nov 15, 2002)

What are you talking about??? We are not debating wether or not the ring could be used for good. We are debating this statement



> _Posted by Eledhwen_
> I'm not sure that they would have been able to usurp him



Your quotes only back up the fact that they would have been able to usurp him. 

You argue against yourself? What folly is this?


----------



## Eledhwen (Nov 16, 2002)

*Quite right, Smeagol*

Elu-Thingol ignored my last quote from the Council of Elrond, where all admitted (except perhaps Boromir in his heart) that the no-one had the power to wield the ring against Sauron. 

Sauron was (to quote the Sil. index) 'The abhorred' (in Sindarin called Gorthaur); greatest of the servants of Melkor, in his origin a Maia of Aulë. 

This is why Maia were sent against him (The Istari). The metalcraft Sauron learned from the greatest smith, and the evil use to which he put it, seemed invincible. It seems to me that those who sent the Istari must have known that only a fool's errand (Gandalf's solution) would have succeeded.


----------



## Elu Thingol (Nov 17, 2002)

You two are really stubborn 



> _Posted by Eledhwen_
> The letter you quote was written in 1951. *By the time LotR was finalised, Gandalf wouldn't dare even touch the ring*, Galadriel refused it because of what it would turn her into and Frodo was overcome by it at the last. The Council of Elrond could think of no-one who could safely wield the ring. Even the timeless Tom Bombadil was not an option



It seems strange that you would say this Eledhwen because Tolkien wrote the letter after he wrote Lord of the Rings

Christopher Tolkien


> "...towards the end of 1951, when The Lord of the Rings was completed but difficulities lay in the way of its publication, my father wrote a very long letter to his friend Milton Waldman, at the time an editor at the publishing house of Collins



Tolkien himself said that the letter was itself a Resume for Lord of the Rings.

Do not be so hasty to put the letter down. It was indeed Tokien's opinon on the subject, but because you refute Tolkien and he is not here to defend himself I will defend his words for him.

Ok Usurp
From Merriam Websters Dictionary


> 1 a : to seize and hold (as office, place, or powers) in possession by force or without right *usurp a throne* b : to take or make use of without right *usurped the rights to her life story*
> 2 : to take the place of by or as if by force : SUPPLANT *must not let stock responses based on inherited prejudice usurp careful judgment>



Please observe the second definition



> _Posted by Smeagol_
> there is just no-one around in Middle-earth who has the power to do so





> No! With that power I should have power too great and terrible





> For I do not wish to become like the Dark Lord himself.
> 
> and from the letter
> 
> become master of all that he had learned or done since the making of the One Ring



Do you see the connection???



> _Posted by Eledhwen_
> Elu-Thingol ignored my last quote from the Council of Elrond, where all admitted (except perhaps Boromir in his heart) that the no-one had the power to wield the ring against Sauron.



Actually, Elrond says something quite different...



> 'Alas no,' said Elrond. 'We cannot use the Ruiling Ring that we now know too well. It belongs to Sauron and was made by him alone, and is altogether evil.



Now it seems that I'm refuted, but read further...



> Its strength, Boromir, is too great for anyone to wield at will *save only those who have already a great power of their own*



Now, do you finally understand? If you will not take Tolkien's words will you take Elrond's?


----------



## Eledhwen (Nov 17, 2002)

Elrond said at the Council that none of the Elves had the strength to wield the ring. 

The ones with power great enough to wield it must therefore be Powers from The West, and not the native creatures of Middle-earth, though even Gandalf, a maia himself, would not take it because the evil in the ring would dominate his good intentions.

Whatever Tolkien wrote in his letters, though useful for study, cannot hold sway over the final published work. Lord of the Rings went through several revisions after 1951. The first published edition of Fellowship of the Ring did not appear until July 1954, and major revisions continued up until 1966. Whatever Tolkien said previously, the text of Lord of the Rings is his final word.


----------



## Elu Thingol (Nov 17, 2002)

> _Posted by Eledhwen_
> Elrond said at the Council that none of the Elves had the strength to wield the ring.
> 
> The ones with power great enough to wield it must therefore be Powers from The West, and not the native creatures of Middle-earth, though even Gandalf, a maia himself, would not take it because the evil in the ring would dominate his good intentions



Elrond never said that Elves could not wield the ring, where did you come up with that?(Please use quotes to support your arguement!). Of couse the evil of the ring would dominate his good intentions, it would dominate anyones good intentions



> But for them it holds an even deadlier peril. The very desire of it corrupts the heart



Who cares if he wouldn't take it. The fact remains that he has the ability to wield it!

Also, refering to your claim that no Elves would be able to wield the ring. Observe the following quote by Galadriel.



> In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair!'



So, Galadriel would also be able to wield the ring.



> _Posted by Smeagol_
> And Saruman is not even able to be a match for Sauron in a "mental combat" via palantir, so it cannot be assumed he would be able to control the Ring against Sauron's will.



That doesn't matter. For his 'will' is strong enough to control the ring.

Observe the words of Elrond



> Consider Saruman. If any of the Wise should with this Ring overthrow the Lord of Mordor, using his own arts,* he would then set himself on Sauron's throne, and yet another Dark Lord would appear*.



So obviously all of the Wise have the power to use the Ring to usurp Sauron.

You seem to think that we are debating wether or not there is the possibility of someone using the ring for 'good'. That is not a possibility. We are discussing wehter or not anyone on ME could use the ring to usurp Sauron. This is an obvious 'yes!' why can't you observe the obvious. Your ignorance is quite a shock.

Also,


> _Posted by Smeagol_
> and after the downfall of Morgoth he had in his control all servants of evil that Melkor had left behind, that made him even more powerful



I suggest you study some more Tolkien my friend; the Balrog were far from Sauron's control.


----------



## Elu Thingol (Nov 18, 2002)

> _Posted by Smeagol_
> Just tell me who could wield the ring and retain that power against the will of Sauron for long? Sauron may be overthrown temporarily, but not permantently as long as the ring exists. Whatever the intentions of someone claiming the ring would be, it is still Sauron's very own power that "inhabits" his ring. What value has the ability to control the ring at first and then fall to its corruptiveness? And don't forget, even if someone else took the ring to use its powers, Sauron would still be around and wait for his time to come. Some day the new owner would make a mistake and Sauron would be back in full force.* And considering the strength he already built up without the ring, it seems unlikely that anyone could build a force to be a match for him*.



So you admit that the ring can be used to usurp Sauron! Ok then I have proven my point to you.

To clear you up on some things, if someone did use the ring to usurp Sauron, Sauron would be devastated.



> If that happened, the new possessor could (if sufficiently strong and heroic by nature) challenge Sauron, *become master of all he had learned or done since the making of the One Ring, and so overthrow him and usurp his place.*



Anotherwords, Sauron's army would belong to the one who took his place. They would become master of all he had learned or done. They would become just another Sauron. I don't think Sauron is coming back from this one, do you?


----------



## Eledhwen (Nov 18, 2002)

*(yawn!)*



> _posted by Elu-Thingol_: Elrond never said that Elves could not wield the ring, where did you come up with that?


It's a quote from Lord of the Rings (see my posts above). He said it during the Council of Elrond. Everything I put in quotes is a quote. I've quoted Lord of the Rings, but you keep insisting that your quote from the earlier, private letter carries more weight than the published text. I have said all I am going to say on this matter.


----------



## Elu Thingol (Nov 18, 2002)

Eledhwen are you refering to this quote?



> 'What power still remains lies with us, here in Imladris, or with Círdan at the Havens, or in Lórien. But have they the strength, have we here the strength to withstand the Enemy, the coming of Sauron at the last, when all else is overthrown?' Elrond: I have not the strength, neither have they.'



If this is the quote, I don't see where your coming from. Elrond isn't even talking about wielding the ring. Please explain.



> _Posted by Eledhwen_
> I've quoted Lord of the Rings, but you keep insisting that your quote from the earlier, private letter carries more weight than the published text. I have said all I am going to say on this matter.



I'm not saying that my quote carries more weight than the published text; I'm saying it clarifies the published text. It is very obvious in the published text that it is possibile to use the ring to usurp Sauron. 



> _Posted by Smeagol_
> What makes you think that someone claiming Sauron's ring would also inherit his armies?



Isn't it obvious?



> become master of all he had learned or done since the making of the One Ring



Sauron built these armies after he made the ring, so the person who usurped him would also gain these armies.



> _Posted by Smeagol_
> That's the reason why the whole adventure of going to Mordor is undertaken, else it would be useless.



No, the reason the decide not to wield the ring is because they know it will corrupt the wearer and another person like Sauron would be created.

I don't see how you think Sauron would come back to take what is his. He would be facing an equal without his ring, while the other would have the ring. It really is a matter of opinion wether or not Sauron would have come back and it really doesn't matter. The thing we are discussing is wether or not it is possible to usurp Sauron. Smeagol has agreed with me on this matter; why not you Eledhwen?


----------



## Elu Thingol (Nov 23, 2002)

So our debate is finished then? Or do you just feel like not posting in it anymore? I really want to continue.


----------



## elrilgalia (Jan 10, 2006)

Elu Thingol said:


> The spot where Isildur died was throughly searched. When the ring could not be found and Saruman procalimed it gone forever the search was abandoned


 
Where did you find this out ? Im curious, I dont remember reading where ???

It makes a lot of sense of things


----------



## Thorondor_ (Jan 10, 2006)

From the Council of Elrond, FotR:


> Fruitless did I call the victory of the Last Alliance? Not wholly so, yet it did not achieve its end. Sauron was diminished, but not destroyed. His Ring was lost but not unmade.
> ...
> For in the days of Isildur the Ruling Ring passed out of all knowledge, and the Three were released from its dominion. But now in this latter day they are in peril once more, for to our sorrow the One has been found
> ...
> Sauron also had watched us, and had long prepared against our stroke, governing Mordor from afar through Minas Morgul, where his Nine servants dwelt, until all was ready. Then he gave way before us, but only feigned to flee, and soon after came to the Dark Tower and openly declared himself. Then for the last time the Council met; for now we learned that he was seeking ever more eagerly for the One. We feared then that he had some news of it that we knew nothing of. But Saruman said nay, and repeated what he had said to us before: that the One would never again be found in Middle-earth


----------



## Noldor_returned (Jan 11, 2006)

I think, that after the events of what happened in the Battle, Elrond had a lot to do. However he never quite forgot about the Ring. Events that I am talking about are he was now a Ring-bearer himself, and did not wish to look for the most powerful ring. Isildur had, settled events in Gondor, and was now ruler of the Dunedain. Next, and I think it says somewhere, that it had been thought that the Ring had washed out to Sea. When Bilbo took the Ring, he never told the full story to anyone except Gandalf, and Gandalf wouldn't have thought immediately, 'Of course. A simple little ring is actually the most evil Ring ever. How silly of me.' No, he was distracted by other things.
What you have brought up here is an interesting topic; it involves The events of the War of the Ring. However, when I start going down the path of what ifs, I always remind myself that nothing much better could have been achieved. I think to myself, 'If this had happened, the Ring may not have been destroyed.'


----------



## Snaga (Jan 11, 2006)

In "Disaster of the Gladden Fields" in Unfinished Tales, we learn a number of things:
(1) There were witnesses to the orcs attack that came to Rivendell. Woodmen also came too late to scene and defeated the orcs before they could dishonour the Dunedain dead. They carried news to Thranduil in Mirkwood.

(2) The scene was searched (by elves, or elf-friends - we are not told exactly who), and Isildur's armour and weapons were found by the banks of Anduin.

(3) It was known therefore that Isildur had perished in the river, since he had not reappeared on the far shore.

This tells us clearly that Elrond (and others) could have searched in the right place very early on.

(4) We later learn that Isildur's body must have been found by Saruman in shallow water.

This further tells us that if he HAD looked, Elrond COULD have found the Ring.

So, therefore, we have to ask why Elrond did not look for it. I think there could have been a number of factors, but 'too busy' seems unlikely. Some theories would be:
(1) Elrond might have felt it dishonourable to search for the body of Isildur, and felt it more fitting to let the Great River take his bones, in the same way that Boromir's were.
(2) Elrond might have felt the desire to see the Three flourish as his kinsman Celebrimbor had always wanted. The desire to preserve Elvendom undimmed throughout the long years of the Third Age would have been strong.
(3) What if he had wanted to search for it? He could not do it alone, surely? What peril would it put others in, if another, less wise than he had found it? Would they have claimed it for their own? How shattering must Isildur's fate been to his confidence in others?
(4) It might have been just that Elrond felt that, in foresight or folly, that he should let was fated unfold.
(5) And indeed, he might have felt that the outcome of the Last Alliance had not been 'fruitless' at all: he might have thought things were quite ok as they were. How much was really known about the nature of the Ring, or indeed that Sauron would arise? We look at this with more perfect knowledge that he had.


----------



## elrilgalia (Jan 12, 2006)

Also we have to consider, who would have actually physically picked up the Ring? not an elf..! they knew too well its influence and did not desire that.

And then if someone else had picked up the Ring would the elves have had sufficient power to persuade that "person" to destroy it ? Elrond certainly didnt in the fires of Mount Doom with Isildur.

Perhaps they assumed, since they could not find it, it had already been taken  and their search moved on to "who" that was... and over the years became a fruitless search


----------



## Wonko The Sane (Jan 19, 2006)

I'd like to quickly address an earlier point debated by Elu-Thingol and Eledhwen.
I think perhaps, that you are both right.
Tolkien's acknowledgement that one with sufficient strength and heroic nature could use the one ring against Sauron is not incompatible with the Council of Elrond's decision that there were none in Middle-Earth who could do so.

Perhaps there were none at the time who possessed that strength. Gandalf, Galadriel and Elrond all knew that they would not be strong enough to resist the ring's powers to corrupt, and Saruman was already corrupted by his communication with Sauron and his desire for power.

I don't see why there was such a huge debate...when it's possible that both were true. Perhaps those who were once strong enough to have theoretically challenged and overthrown Sauron with the power of the ring had passed from Middle-Earth.
Or perhaps those who were strong enough to use the ring against him and conquer feared the corruption that the ring would bring? At any rate, the two statements are not incompatible.


----------



## Withywindle (Feb 8, 2006)

Snaga said:


> (2) Elrond might have felt the desire to see the Three flourish as his kinsman Celebrimbor had always wanted. The desire to preserve Elvendom undimmed throughout the long years of the Third Age would have been strong.


 
This is undoubtedly the reason. When Elrond counselled Isildur to destroy the One, he had never used Vilya, but shortly after Sauron´s defeat he and Galadriel must have been tempted to see what their Rings would do. Having started it must have been like a drug and they thought, what the heck, if the Ring´s lost for ever we can create our paradise on Earth and just hope Sauron never comes back. Remember the Elves are not Good in the way Gandalf is - they are just resistant to corruption, and are basically selfish. It is only when faced with the certainty of Sauron´s victory and his possible recovery of the One that they see no alternative but to back the Quest and renounce the power of the Three.


----------



## Annaheru (Feb 8, 2006)

Something to keep in mind: Elves and Ainu are bound by the Music, only men are specifically mentioned as being outside this limitation (we'll skip the dwarvish question for now), and the trade off is death.

So in one sense, the Elves might have had no free will in this matter.


And even if they did, Elrond _would_ have been extremely busy following these event: the last High King of the Noldor is dead, raising all sorts of authority questions, and one would guess that the kingdom of the Lindon was in chaos (add the confusion in Arnor to his problems)- of the elves we know, only Elrond, Cirdan and Galaldriel would be even remotely qualified to take authority, and of those three Galadriel had her own country, and Cirdan seems to have limited himself to his harbors for three ages of the world. 

It seems certain that temporary authority must have devolved upon Elrond, and by the time everything was in order the consensus placed the Ring at the bottom of Anduin.

As to why no one but Saruman and Sauron ever searched the Gladden Fields . . . it's not exactly the most secure region in the world. The possible dangers must have outwayed the apparent benefits.


----------

