# Evil Elves and Elf wars.



## Camel (Jan 26, 2004)

My knowledge is very hazy on all of this, but i'm trying to find out some more info about evil elves in ME and the role they played. Unfortunately my sister stole my copy of the silmarillion  

Who were the main evil elves in the history of ME? 

Did they have a band of other evil elves behind them, or were just pissed off?

On what occasions did elves fight each other?

And could we really consider them evil in the sense that Sauron and the Orcs were evil, or just elves that were not as peace-loving as the other elves? ie disagreeable perhaps, but not entirely evil.

Cheers to anyone who can help me out.


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## Niniel (Jan 26, 2004)

Hm, I really suggest you get your copy back...
I suppose you are referring to the Noldor as 'evil Elves', but they certainly are not all evil. Some of them are driven by their oath to take revenge on Morgoth and reclaim the Silmarils, and are driven to do evil deeds because of that (such as slaying other Elves: this happens only a few times, at the Kinslaying in Alqualondë and when Dior was slain). And some of them are just nasty persons, oath or no oath. But you can't say that all the Noldor are evil.


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## Camel (Jan 26, 2004)

Aye- my thoughts would be to say that an 'evil' deed doesn't necessarily mean an evil person, i was just hoping to get some others peoples views on this. Cheers.


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## Gil-Galad (Jan 26, 2004)

Well,I believe that Elves were not evil by nature.The circumstances made them evil.Some of the elves who did evil things were:
Feanor,his sons,Eol,and Meaglin.You can read a lot about them in The Sil.


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## Confusticated (Jan 26, 2004)

Of Maeglin who gave Morgoth all the information he needed to attack and ruin Gondolin, Tolkien says this:


> Maeglin was indeed an Elf of evil temper and dark mind, and he had a lust and grudge of his own to satisfy; but even so he did what he did only after torment and under a cloud of fear.


Note that 'evil temper'. That quote from Note 9 to _Quendi and Eldar_ in HoME 11. There it is also said the Dark-elves (Avari) were bitter against the Eldar who they thought of as traitors, and were often treacherous in their dealings with them. The Eldar believed these Avari were weaker to resist the lies of Morgoth. 

After elves die their spirit is summoned to the Halls of Mandos, and some of them refuse this, and stay in the world unbodied. To refuse the summons is considered a sign of taint, and of these refusers this is said: "Some were enslaved by the Dark Lord and do his work still, though he himself is gone."
But then we also learn that some live elves who were taken as slaves in Angband would be let loose to go around doing Morgoth's will, and for this reason the elves were wary of escaped thralls. I think there must have been many evil deeds that we just don't hear about since they don't touch directly on the tales of The Silmarillion, or play an important enough part in them. But personally I think the ugliest deed of an elf was Curufin taking a shot at Luthien when her back was to him. This is an example of an Elda that is just not a very good guy. Would he have done such things if not for his oath? Hard to say. But there were bad ones among elves, even if they are not called 'evil' but only their purposes or temper are. But even though some elves were taken into the service of evil, there is no reason I know of to think this could be done without a lot of fear and torment. The elves were an unfallen race (unlike Men), and they were more resistant to evil than Men. I don't recall an elf ever being called 'evil' (thats not to say Tolkien never did so) but we do hear of Men being called evil. I might guess that Men are called evil when they worship Morgoth or Sauron, anyone other than Iluvatar is taken for God, and then suppose that all elves in the service of evil were enslaved with a fear yet knew Morgoth was not God and did not worship him in their submission that was caused by torment and fear. For example, evil might win a man over with promises of wealth and honour and lies about the Valar, but not an elf. Personaly I'd say an elf was not truly evil unless he worshipped Morgoth. Same for Men.

Then there is the matter of Feanor's rebellion and his oath that vowed to pursue even the Valar if they should keep a Silmaril. This direct disobedience of the Valar should probaby be called an evil action, but all the same I'd not call Feanor evil. The Kinslaying of Alqualonde was surely a very evil deed, and the Noldor were cursed for it by the Valar. We could look at the sons of Feanor to see what exactly became of these elves, as far as their personality. These elves went on to attack elves twice more in Beleriand but they were never allied with Evil (though they did its will unwittingly for sure). They were not filled with a hate of all who are good, and there was no denial of Iluvatar and the Valar as God and lords, but only a drive to fulfil an oath that lead them to evil deeds. There were not evil in the way the hateful orcs were. I'd say these were not an evil group of elves, but a group of elves driven to do some evil deeds. The fact alone that there were only few kinslayings (all motivated by Feanor's oath) among the Eldar speaks a lot about what kind of people the elves were. Compare this to Men warring with eachother constantly.


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## Camel (Jan 26, 2004)

Thanks all- you've given me some more things to mull over.

and dont worry- i'm getting my copy back this weekend.


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## Belegmacar (Jan 27, 2004)

Camel,
Just remember if you ever hear of the Moriquendi, which means "elves of darkness," it doesn't mean that those elves are evil, but that they never saw the light of the Two Trees.


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 4, 2004)

Camel said:


> On what occasions did elves fight each other?


These are the major conflicts between elf and elf:

The first Kinslaying occured already in Aman when Melkor had sown his seeds of deceit. The Noldor desired to follow Melkor to Middle-Earth by the fastest route possible, so they decided to ask the Teleri of Alqualondë to lend them ships. They wouldn't so there was a drawing of swords and much blood was spilt that day. Some of the Noldor, who had Telerin blood in them (like Galadriel for example, who was opposed to Fëanor in every way) fought on the Telerin side.

The second Kinslaying occured when the sons of Fëanor attacked Dior, grandson of Thingol in Doriath because he possessed the Silmaril he inherited from Beren and Lúthien.

The third Kinslaying happened after the War of Wrath, after Melkor had been overthrown and the two remaining jewels taken from his crown. In the watches of the night, Maedhros and Maglor sneaked up into the camp set by Eönwë, the Maiarin emissary of the Valar, and took the Silmarils by force, killing many Elves in their folly.

All three kinslayings revolve, in one way or another, around the Silmarils and Melkor's lies.


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## aragil (Feb 8, 2004)

What about when the Sons of Feanor attacked the Havens? That was a pretty black deed, considering that the folks they attacked were already in a refugee situation anyway, having fled there from the sacks of Nargothrond/Doriath/Gondolin.


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## Inderjit S (Feb 8, 2004)

I suppose there can be no excuse for Amrod, Maglor and Maedhros's attack and indeed the earlier attack on Dior, but their mental states were effected by the oath-and by fate. Of course swearing the oath was a impetous thing to do.

Nevertheless Maedhros not wanting to bring his taint to Aman and their adoption of Elrond and Elros still showed they had some essence of nobility in their latter years, esp. Elrond and Elros seem to me, to make up for Maglor's desire for children, and though he was married, for some reason he never had any kids. It could be because his wife refused to go with him to Formenos or latter into exile or that he told her to remain in Aman.


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