# Do Sauron and Saruman actually die?



## Gandalf White (Nov 4, 2002)

*Questions, questions (part II)*

Ok, this has been bugging me for a while.

1. Do Sauron and Saruman actually die; or do their spirits live on, just with absolutely no power. For some reason, I've always thought Saruman died, and Sauron endured, but with no chance of a comeback this time.

2. Why does Saruman die by a knife wound, while Gandalf cannot be killed by a Balrog. Does it have something to do with Gandalf casting Saruman from the order, and stripping him of power?


----------



## Anamatar IV (Nov 4, 2002)

1--There bodies died but their spirits returned to valinor (and maybe they were thrown in the void with morgoth)

2--Even Gandalfs body would have died by a knife wound. The balrog only burned him and it DID kill him. He knew that no matter what weapon struck him he knew eru would send him back to finish the job.


----------



## Aragorn21 (Nov 5, 2002)

I got a question 2! Is legolas alive during the battle for middle earth where sauron has the ring cut from his finger?.. and if so does he fight in the battle?


----------



## Arvedui (Nov 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Anamatar IV _
> *1--There bodies died but their spirits returned to valinor (and maybe they were thrown in the void with morgoth)
> 
> 2--Even Gandalfs body would have died by a knife wound. The balrog only burned him and it DID kill him. He knew that no matter what weapon struck him he knew eru would send him back to finish the job. *



Whether or not Gandalf was killed is actually beeing discussed at the moment in the Guild of Ost-in-Ethil. If you have a chance GtW, i suggest you take a look at the debate. It is called "Gandalf's Death, an afterthought?"


----------



## Anamatar IV (Nov 5, 2002)

that was a question in "Questions Questions [part 1]" It is not said in any Tolkien book how old legolas iss and whether or not he fought in that battle.


----------



## Grond (Nov 5, 2002)

There is absolutely no doubt that Gandalf died in the battle with the Balrog. The question currently be discussed in Ost-in-Edhil is whether Tolkien had originally intended for Gandalf to live (which is what is written in HoMe VI, The Treason of Isengard) and if so, why he changed the final manuscript to have Gandalf die and be resurrected. 

My opinion, which I shall post in depth in that thread today, is that Tolkien had to come up with a vehicle for Saruman to be removed from the Order of the Istari. He could not be removed by Gandalf the Grey, unless some transmogrification occurs. For that reason, Gandalf had to die in order to be "reborn" into a coeval status with Saruman. It would also allow him (acting under new rules by Iluvatar) to directly confront those evils. Quotes and support to back up my opinion will be posted in the other thread later today.


----------

