# The Two Towers - which towers are they?



## Ged (Feb 16, 2002)

I was driving my son to a friend's house this morning when he suddenly asked: "Dad! Which are the Two Towers? Are they Barad-Dur and Isengard?" I immediately replied "yes". Then I got to thinking that the two towers Tolkien was referring to may have been Barad-Dur and the Tower of Ecthelion in Minas Tirith.

Would be in interested in any views on this.


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## Harad (Feb 16, 2002)

Symmetry seems to make it the White Tower (Tower of Ecthelion) and the Dark Tower (Barad Dur), but the book mainly discusses the Tower of the Moon = Tower of Sorcery and Orthanc.


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## Gnashar_the_orc (Feb 16, 2002)

I was always under the impression that it is Minas Tirith and Minas Morgul. Besides it makes sense to assume that these are the twin towers as one was made to guard the East (Minas Morgul) and one the West (Minas Tirith). They were also build at the same time so it makes more sense to refer to them as Twins.


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## Harad (Feb 16, 2002)

There is somewhere in LOTR where it says something to the effect: If someone from the West used the Ring he would set up the White Tower in strength against the Dark Tower, and there would be two (twin???) towers of Evil grinning across from each other (or am I hallucinating this passage?)

As far as the book, TTT, is concerned, how can you leave out Orthanc, which is at the center of 1/2 of the book?


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## Gnashar_the_orc (Feb 16, 2002)

Harad: I think Orthanc is excluded as I can't really see any connection it has with any other tower. I am trying to be as logical as possible. Maybe too?


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## Harad (Feb 16, 2002)

GTO,

The book is not TTT, its TTT.

(The Twin Towers, its The Two Towers)


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## Bill the Pony (Feb 16, 2002)

A paragraph at the end of my paperback FOTR says it's orthanc and minas morgul, since that's where all the action takes place in book III and IV. But, on this thread, there are two letters cited. In one, Tolkien says he's not happy with the title two towers, since logically it should refer to orthanc and cirith ungol, but people take it to be minas tirith and barad dur. In yet another letter he says it can be left ambiguous, and two towers can refer to three options: isengard/barad dur; minas tirith/barad dur; or isengard/cirith ungol. (with thanks to Cian and RW). It seems you can pick whichever towers you like best.


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## Ged (Feb 16, 2002)

Bill The Pony,

Thanks for the post. I didn't realise this topic had been discussed in such detail before. I'll read through the earlier thread before I post again.


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## Eonwe (Feb 16, 2002)

I always thought it was Minas Morgul and Minas Tirith. But oh stupid me. Obviously it should be Orthanc, as Harad says. The other tower?? Because I am under the impression that Minas Morgul and the tower of Cirith Ungol are not the same??


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## Beorn (Feb 16, 2002)

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=571
Check out the above! It describes the whole spiel of which two towers they are!

An exact copy!


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## Wonko The Sane (Jan 20, 2006)

Bill the Pony said:


> It seems you can pick whichever towers you like best.



Then I pick Amon Sul and the tower at the Grey Havens.


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## Noldor_returned (Jan 21, 2006)

My wisdom shall settle this. It is Orthanc and Minas Morgul. Why? I'll give a few reasons:
1) I know I've read or heard that those are the towers of which the events revolve around. Why would it be Minas Tirith? It is barely mentioned in TTT. And Barad-Dur? Yes it plays a prominent role, but not a centrepiece. No-one goes there, no-one really talks about it, and no-one has anything to do with it, except Saruman. There is of course Cirith Ungol, but since that is no longer a tower, it can't be.

2)In book three, what is the main tower which events are based upon? Orthanc. In book four, what is the main tower which events are based upon? Minas Morgul.

Does this clear everything up?


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## Wonko The Sane (Jan 23, 2006)

Probably not. Even given good evidence people will usually believe what they want to believe.

There are very few Tolkien questions that any of us can claim to solve for anyone but ourselves.


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## Noldor_returned (Jan 23, 2006)

Wonko The Sane said:


> Probably not. Even given good evidence people will usually believe what they want to believe.
> 
> There are very few Tolkien questions that any of us can claim to solve for anyone but ourselves.


 
Yes, but this is not one. I have read somewhere which towers they are, and one of them is definetely Orthanc. The other is either Barad-dur or Minas Morgul. Which others could they be?


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## Wonko The Sane (Jan 24, 2006)

If you want people to just take your word and believe what you believe then you need to, _at the very least_ provide quotes or evidence that you are right.

And you have to accept that even then people will believe what they want to believe.

I'm not saying I disagree with you. I happen to believe the two towers are Orthanc and Minas Morgul as well. I'm just saying that there are others who will choose one of the other options no matter what you or anybody else says.


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## Noldor_returned (Jan 24, 2006)

I will try and find the quote, so until then, just take a breath.


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## Wonko The Sane (Jan 25, 2006)

It might be worthwhile to note that regardless of what was intended in the book in the movie the two towers are definitely Orthanc and Barad Dur.

That, to me, further strengthens the position that the two towers in the book are Orthanc and Minas Morgul. Barad Dur features very little in TTT book and Minas Morgul does play an integral part.

In the movie Barad Dur is featured fairly often, especially towards the beginning there's a cut from Orthanc and Saruman to Barad Dur and the armies marching forth from the tower and then a panning shot up to the great eye.

I think it's also worthwhile to note that the title The Two Towers is not one that Tolkien liked or chose for his book. It was pressed upon him by the publishers. So what Tolkien intended can't really come into play. And what that publisher intended is anybody's guess.  

(please correct any accuracy problems my post may have)


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## Walter (Jan 25, 2006)

I'm not sure Tolkien ever made a final statement which towers represent "The Two Towers". In a letter to Rayner Unwin (the publisher) from Aug 17, 1953 (Letters #140) he states:



> "The Two Towers" gets as near as possible to finding a title to cover the widely divergent Books 3 and 4; and can be left ambiguous - it might refer to Isengard and Barad-dûr, or to MinasTirith and B; or Isengard and CirithUngol." [1]
> Letters #140



and the note [1] explains:



> [1] In a subsequent letter to Rayner Unwin, Tolkien is more definite that the Two Towers are 'Orthanc and the Tower of CirithUngol'. On the other hand, in his original design for the jacket of ''The Two Towers'' the Towers are certainly Orthanc and MinasMorgul. Orthanc is shown as a black tower, three-homed (as seen in Pictures no. 27), and with the sign of the White Hand beside it; MinasMorgul is a white tower, with a thin waning moon above it, in reference to its original name. MinasIthil, the Tower of the Rising Moon (''The Fellowship of the Ring'' p. 257). Between the two towers a Nazgûl flies.
> ibid.



in the "subsequent letter" from Jan 22, 1954 (Letters #143) mentioned in the footnote , Tolkien wrote:



> "I am not at all happy about the title ''The Two Towers''. It must if there is any real reference in it to Vol II refer to Orthanc and the Tower of CirithUngol. But since there is so much made of the basic opposition of the Dark Tower and MinasTirith, that seems very misleading."
> Letters #143




So, according to chronology (Tolkien's cover-drawing is the latest) it would be Orthanc and MinasMorgul, whereas from the textual information it would be Orthanc and the Tower of CirithUngol, but there is no certainty, IMO...


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## Voronwë (Jan 25, 2006)

I assumed it was Orthanc and Barad-dûr, due to the uneasy union between the two via the palantirs. I still think this.
However, the idea of Orthanc and Minas Morgul also makes sense (since each 'section' in TTT is all about one of these towers, Morgul for the ring-bearer, Orthanc for the rest of the company).


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## Wonko The Sane (Jan 25, 2006)

Your point is valid, and I can certainly see the sense in the argument for Barad Dur, considering that the two evil factions in the book are based in Orthanc and Barad Dur...


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## Elthir (Jan 25, 2006)

> '4 January 1954 Rayner Unwin sends Tolkien a rough draft of the note about TT and RK that follows the text at the end of FR.'
> 
> 22 January: '... In response to the draft note sent by Unwin on 4 January, he has had 2nd thoughts about the title 'The Two Towers'. "It must if there is any real reference to volume II refer to Orthanc and The Tower of Cirith Ungol . But since there is so much made of the basic opposition of the Dark Tower and Minas Tirith, that seems very misleading. There is, of course, actually no real connecting link between Books III and IV, when cut off and presented separately as a volume. "
> 
> ...


 
So the text Tolkien approved for publication, text published in _The Fellowship of the Ring_, agrees with the final illustration from Tolkien (the illustration has since been published).

The Two Towers are Orthanc and Minas Morgul.

Galin


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## Walter (Jan 25, 2006)

Very strange... my copy of that book (First ed., 2nd printing 2002) doesn't have an entry for 22 February 1954, what is the printing date of your copy?

----

Edit: I may need glasses soon, though...

The entry is of course there, it was a mere typo of Galin which I didn't realize at first. The entry is dated 23 February 1954

I remember the issue was discussed to quite some extent some years ago in another thread , but I missed that the issue of the authorship of the note at the end of FotR was settled by Cian (post #191) who mentioned the entry in the Descriptive Bibliography first. Also, until today I haven't read the chronology in the Bibliography carefully enough to notice that remark...


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## Elthir (Jan 25, 2006)

Oop, thanks for the alert Walter. I shall revise my handy 'internet' copy to_ 23_ Feb. to try to avoid future confusion. I'll edit my previous post too.

Galin


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## Wonko The Sane (Jan 25, 2006)

Perhaps that settles it then.
It should at least, though I think that people will, as Tolkien said, still think that Minas Tirith and Barad Dur are the two towers mentioned.

It is misleading, and he's right it isn't a great title, but it's the title now.  At any rate, it's settled it for me, and confirmed I was right.


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## Noldor_returned (Jan 26, 2006)

Somebody make a note, I was right all along.


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## Ingwë (Jan 27, 2006)

This discussion has no end... We tried to finish it 5 or 6 months ago but we couldn't... 
http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?t=3701&page=13


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## Elthir (Jan 27, 2006)

Ingwë said:


> This discussion has no end... We tried to finish it 5 or 6 months ago but we couldn't...


 
Tolkien answered this long ago but the general Reader couldn't be sure (often questioning the note published at the end of _The Fellowship_). Thanks to Hammond and Anderson and Hammond and Scull we now know a lot more concening the note and JRRT's book illustrations.

People will still have their opinions, but Tolkien's ultimate answer is quite clear in any case.

Galin


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## ingolmo (Jan 27, 2006)

Ingwe, I believe we did.
I argued so much that it's Orthanc and Barad Dur, and gave so many referances and quotes that everyone else got tired and left. 
Anyway, I still believe the same. 
And you should go to that thread Beorn pointed out, it's the original thread.


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## Wonko The Sane (Jan 27, 2006)

ingolmo said:


> Ingwe, I believe we did.
> I argued so much that it's Orthanc and Barad Dur, and gave so many referances and quotes that everyone else got tired and left.
> Anyway, I still believe the same.
> And you should go to that thread Beorn pointed out, it's the original thread.



I went to that thread and it looks like you claim that it's Orthanc and Minas Morgul...Was the Barad Dur a typo or did you change your mind?


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## Noldor_returned (Aug 14, 2006)

I found evidence of Orthanc and Minas Morgul:

In the Fellowship of the Ring, Harper Collins 1994:


> ..._The second part is called The Two Towers, since the events recounted in it are dominated by Orthanc...and the fortress of Minas Morgul_...


 
I believe that should settle it.


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## Alcuin (Aug 15, 2006)

Noldor_returned said:


> I believe that should settle it.


Oh, I wouldn’t count on it.
Do Balrogs have wings? (And this one. And your debate, Noldor_returned.)
What is Tom Bombadil?
Who killed the Witch-king? 



> _The Road goes ever on and on
> Down from the door where it began._


Even this question – What are the Two Towers? – has an antecedent thread and poll.


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## Walter (Aug 15, 2006)

Noldor_returned said:


> I found evidence of Orthanc and Minas Morgul:
> 
> In the Fellowship of the Ring, Harper Collins 1994:
> 
> ...


Congratulations... 

But then again ... if you look at post #191 of the thread Alcuin mentioned, you might find that Cian did that already in 2002...

Or, if you look at this very thread and a few posts before yours Galin did the same...

Sometimes it pays to read older threads and previous posts on the same topic... 


P.S.: You might have even found this overview helpful in your researches...


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## Alcuin (Aug 15, 2006)

*Noldor_returned*, keep bringing these things up and asserting your opinion. Roll with the debate, hone your skills, and get better and better. 


You might find the search engine useful to see what other folks have said about some of the topics.


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