# Gondor's navy



## Arthur_Vandelay (Mar 29, 2004)

This question occurred to me as I was posting in the North, South, East, West thread. . . 

Did Gondor have a navy, or any kind of maritime fleet or industry at the end of the Third Age? If so, where might the ships of Gondor have sailed to?


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## Ithrynluin (Mar 29, 2004)

Wasn't Pelargir an active Gondorian harbour for a time? And also Umbar? I suppose they may have continued sailing the same 'paths' as the Numenoreans before them, though on a much smaller scale.


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## Arthur_Vandelay (Mar 29, 2004)

I imagine there would have been traffic by river between Minas Tirith and Pelargir, right up to the time of the War of the Ring. But wasn't Umbar in enemy hands at the end of the Third Age?

Something else I've often wondered about: Earnur sent a fleet to Lindon in 1975, but since then there appears to be no mention of any traffic by sea between Gondor and Lindon. Why?


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## Greenwood (Mar 29, 2004)

Arthur_Vandelay said:


> Something else I've often wondered about: Earnur sent a fleet to Lindon in 1975, but since then there appears to be no mention of any traffic by sea between Gondor and Lindon. Why?



I would think with the destruction of the North Kingdom there just wasn't any need for sea traffic between the two places (or much of any other traffic, either). Afterall, the Northway outside of Bree sees very little traffic.


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## Inderjit S (Mar 29, 2004)

*A Thousand Words For Ten.*

Well Pelargir was a intrinsic part of Gondor's realm, after all two of it's kings (Eärnur and Castamir) came from there and it was once, albeit for a short time the capital of the realm.

The 'Appendix' tells us that Thorongil (Aragorn) was a masterful captain, at land at sea. This implies that Gondor did have some kind of navy. We then learn that he led a expedition to overthrow the rebels in Umbar. He led a "small fleet" (or something like that) and he eventually burned the ships and slew the captain. This shows that Gondor had a navy-however miniscule. A navy may have been intrinsic in the defence of Gondor, which had undergone a phase of increase militarism owing to the increasing number of attacks by their enemies, Turin II fortified Cair Andros ( the island, which the force from Mordor took in the WoTR) and built Hennuth Annun and after return of Sauron to Mordor during the reign of Turgon, and his son Gondor would have stepped up her militaristic ambitions, to block Sauron's increasing hegemony over Middle-Earth. (i.e. the battle by the River Poros by the Haradrim served as a preamble to the escalating threat of Mordor) as Damrod comments, the Southrons, though at times cordial with Gondor were ever willing to go back to Sauron.) So Gondor may have had a navy, maybe not as great as before, though still a competent fighting force, with Pelargir as her base. Remember the Númenóreans were fundamentally 'sea-lovers' and though their blood was now "mixed"; old habits die hard. 

Since the Corsairs chose Pelargir as their base one can assume that was the best place for them to land and subdue Gondor's southern fiefs. They may have set fire or destroyed or capture Pelargir's ships. (Some of course sailed north the fight Angbor and his vassals or whatever he had under him, prob. a amalgamation of separate autonomous vassals marching under his banner (though some fled when Aragorn came) as a lot of the groups who marched into Minas Tirith for her defence were a amalgamation of smaller fiefdoms under one great lord, the juxtaposition of small realms into bigger ones would have been a wise decision.) 

The attack from Umbar was pre-anticipated (see the chapter in which the fiefs all march into Minas Tirith) and so one wonders why a naval battle between the two wasn't referred to, instead the battles we hear about seem to take place on land, though of course we don't hear anything, and there may have been a battle, I have just forgotten about it since it was referred to briefly. 

Elrond claims that the Gondorian have kept the river from Argonath to the sea safe from attack. This implies a naval force when Gondor began to "wain". Boromir alludes to the fact that if the passes of the river were lost then Middle-Earth would be exposed. This implies a naval force at the time of the WoTR. There is a port, not misused named 'Harlindon' close to Minas Tirith. Aragorn claims that a small force from the south were coming in ships (Angbor was leading a larger force on horse/foot) which may point at a small Gondorian naval force, unless these ships consist of captured Umbrian force, though Aragorn seems to have taken all of the ships) but the fact that they could navigate the ships shows that the men of the fiefs knew how to use boats. This may have been because of commercial reasons. Gondor's coastal population was huge and so it is inconceivable that they did not have some kind of naval commerce and considering the threat from Umbar and other naval force it is inconceivable that they did not have a naval force, however large. It would have been quicker to travel down-stream then by walking or running.



> Something else I've often wondered about: Earnur sent a fleet to Lindon in 1975, but since then there appears to be no mention of any traffic by sea between Gondor and Lindon. Why?



Well, the Gondorian increasingly began to mistrust the Elves, which led to a alienation between the two. Why trade with a race they didn't trust? (Note Faramir's rant to Frodo on higher men, middle men etc.) 

Gondor ceased any communication with Arnor way before the WoTR. They though little of Arthedain though Earnur tried to re-kindle their relations. 

Any traffic northwards up the Anduin had long since ceased, as Boromir attests, no ship had arrived from the north for a long time, though Aragorn states that small ships came and went before Sauron took Ithilien from Rhovanion to Gondor, though they had to avoid San Gerbir by stopping at the small port. (It seems it was more frequently used in former times since Aragorn states that it was used to go to Osgiliath, which was abandoned after the siege of Castamir.) Any trade to Eriador would have been futile.


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## Inderjit S (Mar 29, 2004)

Also, in 'The New Shadow' (HoME 12) Borlas's son works in the navy. O.K this story is set 100 or so years or so after the WoTR but surely they must have built the navy on something?


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## Ardamir the Blessed (Mar 31, 2004)

In the middle of TA Gondor had a huge navy.

Appendix A:


> 'But when Eärnur came to the Grey Havens there was joy and great wonder among both Elves and Men. So great in draught and so many were his ships that they could scarcely find harbourage, though both the Harlond and the Forlond also were filled; and from them descended an army of power, with munition and provision for a war of great kings. Or so it seemed to the people of the North, though this was but a small sending-force of the whole might of Gondor.



It was undoubtedly much smaller at the end of TA.


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