# Elrond's & Arwen's Family/Last Name



## Miss Rainbow

Now I hope this topic is appropreate for the Hall Of Fire...I hope....
I am wondering about Elrond & Arwen; what is their Family/Last Name? Is it Evenstar, or some other name? Thank you very much.


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## Confusticated

Evenstar was the English translation of Undomiel. That was Arwen's title.


The elves and as far as I know Elrond's half-elven family did not have last names as we do. When you see two names together like Arwen Undomiel, Elbereth Gilthoniel, Finrod Felagund, or Gildor Inglorion, you are generally seeing the elf (or Dunedain's ) name followed by his/her title.


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## Artanis

People in Middle Earth had no surnames, instead they presented themselves as 'son of' or 'daughter of' so and so. Aragorn son of Arathorn, Legolas son of Thranduil, Gimli son of Glóin, Boromir son of Denethor, and so on. Then Elrond would be Elrond son of Eärendil, but since he was also Lord of Imladris he would rather use this title. I'm not sure whether Arwen would be called Arwen daughter of Elrond, or Arwen daughter of Celebrian though.

I also thought that Gilthoniel (Star-kindler), Felagund (hewer of caves) and Undomiel were 'nick-names' rather than titles? And, doesn't Gildor Inglorion mean Gildor son of Inglor?


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## Confusticated

I probably should have said _other names and titles_.

I don't know if Felagund would be a title or not, it seems like it might since it is translated (though not literally) "Lord of Caves", but then there are case where someone's name is "Lord of..."


Gilthoniel is called a title by Tolkien at least once. Undomiel I am not sure about. In fact I'm not too clear on the difference between title and name, especially if the meaning of the name is all I have to go on. 

I do doubt Inglorion qualifies as a title but I'm not sure. It isn't simply a name, but then it is more than just saying "I am Gildor son of Inglor" otherwise it would be translated to English "son of Inglor" instead of staying in Sindarin I suspect.

The Men of Bree apparantly had surnames, maybe they learned this from the hobbits? I wouldn't be surprised if Tolkien does answer this somewhere.


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## Shireman D

In ROTK the Gondoreans express surprise that the Hobbits should call their new king Strider. He replies that in the high tongue it would be Telcontar and that he would take it as the name of his house. So, I suppose, he would sign himself Ellessar Telcontar and Arwen would be Mrs. Telcontar. That is not quite the same as having a family name, after all my queen could sign herself Betty Windsor but she is not very likely to do so! 


p.s. (BW is HMQ's nickname in the UK armed forces).


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## Gothmog

The Return of the King: The Houses of Healing


> 'Strider! How splendid! Do you know, I guessed it was you in the black ships. But they were all shouting _corsairs_ and wouldn't listen to me. How did you do it?'
> Aragorn laughed, and took the hobbit by the hand. 'Well met indeed!' he said. 'But there is not time yet for travellers' tales.'
> But Imrahil said to Éomer: 'Is it thus that we speak to our kings? Yet maybe he will wear his crown in some other name!'
> And Aragorn hearing him, turned and said: 'Verily, for in the high tongue of old I am _Elessar_, the _Elfstone_, and _Envinyatar_, the Renewer': and he lifted from his breast the green stone that lay there. *'But Strider shall be the name of my house, if that be ever established. In the high tongue it will not sound so ill, and Telcontar I will be and all the heirs of my body.'*


By saying that "Telcontar I will be and all the heirs of my body" Aragorn is saying that this will be his Family Name. However, looking through HoME 9: Sauron Defeated. It seems that Tolkien intended there to be an epilogue to The Lord of the Rings that included a letter written by Aragorn to Sam. The letter is as follows written in English and in Sindarin:


> Aragorn Strider The Elfstone, King of Gondor and Lord of the Westlands, will approach the Bridge of Baranduin on the eighth day of Spring, or in the Shire-reckoning the second day of April. And he desires to greet there all his friends. In especial he desires to see Master Samwise, Mayor of the Shire, and Rose his wife; and Elanor, Rose, Goldilocks, and Daisy his daughters; and Frodo, Merry, Pippin and Ham fast his sons.
> 
> To Samwise and Rose the King's greeting from Minas Tirith, the thirty-first day of the Stirring, being the twenty-third of February in their reckoning.
> A þ E þ
> 
> Elessar Telcontar: Aragorn Arathornion Edhelharn, aran Gondor ar Hir i Mbair Annui, anglennatha i Varanduiniant erin dolothen Ethuil, egor ben genediad Drannail erin Gwirith edwen. Ar e anira ennas suilannad mhellyn in phain: edregol e anira tirad i Cherdir Perhael (i sennui Panthael estathar aen) Condir i Drann, ar Meril bess din, ar Elanor, Meril, Glorfinniel, ar Eirien sellath din; ar Iorhael, Gelir, Cordof, ar Baravorn, ionnath din.
> A Pherhael ar am Meril suilad uin aran o Minas
> Tirith nelchaenen uin Echuir.
> A þ E þ


emphasis mine

So it would seem that Tolkien's view was that Aragorn would use "Strider" or "Telcontar" as his Family name on letters he sent out and possibly on all documents that required his name to be affixed.


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## Lhunithiliel

First off, I tend to agree that in fact, in those worlds there were no 'family' names.
Second, I also believe that neither among Elves, nor among Men it was a custom for the bride to take up a name from her husband ... Well, first of all these husbands did not have 'family' names to be taken (though it was always known who to which 'house' belonged), and in general I don't remember it mentioned anywhere (from what I've read) that wives took the names of their husbands.

However, since this union was between Elves and Men, I recalled some facts about names and naming as it was the custom of these both races.

A lot of information about *naming among the Elves* we can find in Tolkien's essay _"Laws and Customs among the Eldar" _


> This is the manner in which the naming of children was
> achieved among the Noldor. Soon after birth the child was
> named. It was the right of the father to devise this first name,(13)
> and he it was that announced it to the child's kindred upon
> either side. It was called, therefore, the father-name, and it
> stood first, if other names were afterwards added. It remained
> unaltered,* for it lay not in the choice of the child.
> 
> *But every child among the Noldor (in which point, maybe,
> they differed from the other Eldar) had also the right to name
> himself or herself. *





> Now both these names, the father-name and the chosen name,  were 'true names', not nicknames; but the father-name was public, and the chosen name was private, especially when used alone. Private, not secret. The chosen names were regarded by the Noldor as part of their personal property, like (say) their rings, cups, or knives, or other possessions which they could lend, or share with kindred and friends, but which could not be
> taken without leave. The use of the chosen name, except by
> members of the same house (parents, sisters, and brothers), was
> a token of closest intimacy and love, when permitted. It
> was, therefore, presumptuous or insulting to use it without
> permission.**





> 'There was another source of the variety of names borne by any one of the Eldar, which in the reading of their histories may to
> us seem bewildering. This was found in the Anessi: the given (or
> added) names. Of these the most important were the so-called
> 'mother-names'.(18) Mothers often gave to their children special names of their own choosing. The most notable of these were the 'names of insight', essi tercenye, or of 'foresight', apacenye.
> In the hour of birth, or on some other occasion of moment,
> the mother might give a name to her child, indicating some
> dominant feature of its nature as perceived by her, or some
> foresight of its special fate.' These names had authority, and
> were regarded as true names when solemnly given, and were
> public not private if placed (as was sometimes done) immedi-
> ately after the father-name.


There you have some valuable info (sorry for the long quotes, but the info there is so excitingly interesting!  ).
So, the name _Arwen Undomiel_ - do you think it could be her 'father'name' and her 'mother-name'? Or... was '_Undomiel_' a 'chosen-name'?

Now, Aragorn did have a *lot* of names, didn't he?!!!  
He was, however from a Numenorean lineage and there it is what I remembered about names in Numenor :

_The Unfinished Tales" - the whole chapter about Numenor:



The personal names, and especially the official and public names, of all members of the royal house, and of the Line of Elros in general, were given in Quenya form.

Click to expand...

also
In a reference to these matters in The Lord of the Rings, Appendix F, I (section Of Men), a somewhat different impression is given of the place of Sindarin among the languages of Númenor: 



"The Dunedain alone of all races of Men knew and spoke an Elvish tongue; for their forefathers had learned the Sindarin tongue, and this they handed on to their children as a matter of lore, changing little with the passing of the years."

Click to expand...

further on in UT:



The Realm of Númenor is held to have begun in the thirty-second year of the Second Age, when Elros son of Eärendil ascended the throne in the City of Armenelos, being then ninety years of age. Thereafter he was known in the Scroll of the King by the name of Tar-Minyatur; for it was the custom of the King to take their titles in the forms of the Quenya or High-elven tongue, that being the noblest tongue of the world, and this custom endured until the days of Ar-Adûnakhôr (Tar-Herunúmen).

Click to expand...

... and, in fact, reading about the kings of Numenor, the issue on *names* is explained in almost each case - which king was named how and why...

Therefore, and taking into consideration the strong Elven influence upon Aragorn's education and character in general, I can understand why he had a 'father-name' and quite a number of 'chosen-names'... But of course, he also "enjoyed" quite a few 'earned-names" , like 'Strider', "Longshanks', Elfstone' etc.

Bottomline, both, Arwen and Aragorn IMO had kept to their names and therewas not "taking up of a family name".
And why should've it been otherwise?! Both had names to be absolutely proud of and I wouldn't have expected neither ot them to renounce even one of their names, for they were all well deserved. _


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## Valandil

Artanis said:


> People in Middle Earth had no surnames, instead they presented themselves as 'son of' or 'daughter of' so and so...



Yes - this was common practice in our own western society up until maybe 500 or 600 years ago, I believe (can anyone say more definitely when?). I don't know when the Chinese or other eastern cultures began the practice (the Chinese actually place the surname, or family name, first).

The Hobbits (and Bree folk - did the Men there adopt this from Hobbits?) seem to have been ahead of their time in this, from very early in their Shire-days, if not the beginning of them. Perhaps this was an outgrowth of their interest in family histories.


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## Elthir

Artanis said:


> And, doesn't Gildor Inglorion mean Gildor son of Inglor?


 
I think it does (or descendant of Inglor). Though taken to task on another forum, and based on what _I only think_ I might know of the Noldorin language at the time Tolkien wrote this name, a variant meaning Inglorion 'Gold-hearted' seems possible at least. Interestingly Inglor was the name of Felagund when Tolkien wrote this passage. 

Whatever Inglor meant at the time it is probably to be replaced by later notions found in _Morgoth's Ring_ in any case, where the new idea seems to be Inglor *Gold of the Ingar (or long version) 'the one with golden hair like that of the Ingar' (meaning the folk of Ingwe). In the context of _Morgoth's Ring_, Ingalaure (S. Inglor) was the mother-name of Finarfin, though later JRRT changed his mother-name to Ingoldo. 

We don't really know who this Inglor in _The Lord of the Rings_ is ultimately supposed to be, though the meaning of the name as it was once applied to Finarfin maybe fits.


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## Eledhwen

Surnames were introduced into England following the Norman conquest; and for the common folk the surnames were often taken up and dropped at will. However, they began to 'stick' and become family names; often meaning 'son of' or a trade (eg: fletcher, cooper, tanner) or a clan name. Tolkien would have known this. The Shire seemed to follow the clan name tradition, firmed up into surnames (The Hobbit was, after all, originally a children's book). In other peoples, the given names often bore a family similarity, but parentage was still acknowledged by referring to the immediate parent (patronymic/matronimic system), eg Frodo, son of Drogo. This system is still used in Iceland today. Nick naming has been mentioned, and this was common in ancient Rome (Cognomen) and appeared on official documents after 100BC. The nicknames given to Elves and Men seemed somewhat kinder than those often recorded in ancient Rome.


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## Alcuin

Surnames were legally required in Iceland only in the second half of the twentieth century. My Calculus professor was "Bjarni Jonsson" because his father was named Jon; his children, however, inherited _Jonsson_ as a surname because the a new law was created sometime in the past 50 years requiring surnames. (So said he to me.) 

The old method was "William John's son", thus "William Johnson"; or "Bob Farmer" (as opposed to "Bob the Builder"), "Sally Fields" (perhaps because the family had a house in the fields). Noble families often took their names from the towns or regions they ruled: "Harwell", "Richmond", "Westmoreland". The number of folks named Smith (obvious) and Jones (Welsh for "farmer," if I'm not mistaken: if I am, someone surnamed Jones will correct me quick!) in English is proverbial.

There are dictionaries of names, some of which can be Googled on-line. For English surnames, however, the first source is William the Conquerer's Doomsday Book, when as *Eledhwen* has already stated, the Normans basically assigned surnames to the Anglo-Saxon and Danish inhabitants of the kingdom.


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## Haleth

Miss Rainbow said:


> I am wondering about Elrond & Arwen; what is their Family/Last Name? Is it Evenstar, or some other name? Thank you very much.


As several people before me have already stated, Elves had no family/last names. They were probably presented as the 'son of', 'daughter of', or refered to by a title if they had any. Arwen and Elrond likewise wouldn't have a last name.
Arwen had the epesse (a sort of nickname or honorary title) Undomiel which translated from Sindarin means Evenstar.
Elrond was at times refered to as Elrond Peredhil which means Half-elven and is also like a 'nickname'. He is more often refered to by his tilte as the ruler of Rivendell.

I've always wondered about the Elven naming traditions of having a father-name, a mother-name and sometimes a chosen name or 'nickname'. Does it apply to all of the Eldar, or is it only something the Noldor and those descended from them did? I do remember some of the Sindar having what looked like epesse/'nicknames' (Elu Thingol, Beleg Cuthalion, Cirdan was also not his true name but a nickname). But would they have the whole father-name, mother-name and chosen name system?


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## Bucky

I thought it was Smith....

Or Smythe.


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## Elthir

Haleth said:


> I've always wondered about the Elven naming traditions of having a father-name, a mother-name and sometimes a chosen name or 'nickname'. Does it apply to all of the Eldar, or is it only something the Noldor and those descended from them did?


 
_Laws and Customs_ does speak to the customs of the Noldor here, but it's also noted (for example) that they might have differed from the other Eldar concerning the chosen-name. This difference is expressed in uncertain terms, though it appears _Laws and Customs_ was supposed to be written by a Man. From a comparison with a later note on naming Christopher Tolkien seems to think that this detail concerning the Noldor might have been abandoned. In my opinion it also might have been left out due to compression. 

In any case the later note on naming, which includes the Father-name, Mother-name, _epesse_ and etc., refers to the Eldar in Valinor.

And just on a minor point, Undómiel is Quenya rather. And welcome!


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## Haleth

Thanks for the info and for the welcome, Galin. 



> And just on a minor point, Undómiel is Quenya rather.


You're right. Thank you for pointing out the mistake.

The complicated naming traditions do seem like something the Eldar of Valinor would have developed, since they had a lot of time on their hands, lazing about in Eldamar.


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