# Círdan



## Celebthôl (Dec 23, 2002)

K this has been debated a lot and i believe that this perticular Elve deserves his own thread and a pole!
an the main question is "was Círdan among the first born"?
we can also debate this great elve in more detail etc

it is in my honest opinion that he was i alwasys believed he was and i was always fasinated by him (i dont know why)

(but please keep to the theme of the thread)!!! 

Thôl


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## morello13 (Dec 23, 2002)

I agree Cirdan is a cool dude, being so old, being able to foresee the power of Gandalf, and knowing a lot of cool things.
About the awakening, i don't think he has a wife as others have stated, his love semmed to be the sea and shipbuilding, based on that he could not have awoken without a wife.
If he does have a wife and his wife has no parents and no siblings, and if he has no parents and no siblings, then he must have awoke.
All in all this pole is just our thoughts on how we view Cirdan.
I didint vote cause i have no clue.


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## Lantarion (Dec 23, 2002)

Well that's the thing, you're supposed to put up your own opinion!! 
It's like when someone asks you to guess, and somebody answers "I don't know". YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO KNOW, YOU*RE SUPPOSED TO GUESS!!!! 
 heehee, sorry 'bout that.

I think he was, because I believe it is stated very early in the Silmarillion that Círdan the Shipwright established a stronghold by the shores of Middle-Earth.. o apparently he was of the Avari.


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## gate7ole (Dec 23, 2002)

I stated it in a relative thread, I do it again:
Nobody knows and we all guess, but Cirdan is NOT among the first born (actually not born awaken), because:
1. no wife
2. extremely low possibility to be among the original 144 elves. From a -wildly guessing- 2000 Elves at the time of the Great Journey, why should Cirdan be among the first?


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## Confusticated (Dec 23, 2002)

I don't see any way that Cirdan was of the Avari. He seems to be a Teleri of the Umanyar (those that set out to Aman but did not make it).

A couple things that lead me to this are:


> *When Osse invites the Quendi to Aman*
> But many refused the summons, preffering the starlight and the wide spaces of Middle-earth to the rumour of the Trees;and these are the Avari, the Unwilling, and they were sundered in that time from the Eldar, and met never again until many ages were past


Sounds like Cirdan couldn't have been of that group.



> When many years had passed, Ulmo hearkened to prayers of the Noldor and of Finwe their King, who grieved at their long sundering from the Teleri, and besought him to bring them to Aman, if they would come. And most of them proved now willing indeed; but great was the grief of Osse when Ulmo returned to the coasts of Beleriand, to bear them away to Valinor; for his care was for the seas of Middle-earth and the shores of the hither Lands, and he was ill-pleased that the voices of the Teleri should be heard no more in his domain. Some he persuaded to remain; and those were the Falathrim, the elves of the Falas, who in after days had dwellings at the havens of Brithombar and Eglarest, the first mariners in Middle-earth and the first makers of ships. Cirdan the Shipwright was their lord.


Sounds like he was of that group.


PS: I voted that Cirdan was not among those to awaken at Cuivienen.


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 26, 2005)

I like to think that Cirdan was of the "generation" of elves who awoke at Cuivienen countless years ago. He emanates a certain aura of 'antiquity'. His beard, which he seems to have from the beginning of his entrance into the stories, makes him look very ancient (elves did not have beards until they entered their third 'cycle' of life). Sure, Mahtan had a beard and he was not yet in his third cycle of life, but I believe he was a lone (or one of few) exception.

All the arguments against this seem to stem from the fact that he was seemingly wifeless, and that Thingol (and therefore Olwë and Elmo) was a relative of his. As a matter of fact, I think it may be somewhat possible that Cirdan's wife simply never gets a mention, because she was not directly or particularly involved in the histories of the elves. We must remember that quite a few elves' spouses are left unnamed (Ingwë, for example), and that does not mean they were not actually married. About Thingol and Cirdan being related, Cirdan and his (unnamed) wife could have had a child who came to be Thingol's (grand)mother/(grand)father.


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## Snaga (Sep 26, 2005)

Hmm... there is something in HoME somewhere which tells us more about Cirdan and his motives etc but I can't offhand remember where it is. Maybe I will go a-hunting. I doubt it tells us if he was one of those that awoke at Cuivienen but I see no reason to think he isn't. We know Thingol was, and I think of them as being a similar generation.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Sep 26, 2005)

Snaga said:


> Hmm... there is something in HoME somewhere which tells us more about Cirdan and his motives etc but I can't offhand remember where it is. Maybe I will go a-hunting. I doubt it tells us if he was one of those that awoke at Cuivienen but I see no reason to think he isn't. We know Thingol was, and I think of them as being a similar generation.



ABUNDANT info about Cirdan can be found at http://www.tuckborough.net/cirdan.html .

Barley

PS: Correct post count for me is whatever is shown *PLUS 800.* For some reason, credit for 800(!!!) legitimate posts has been subtracted from my count with no explanation whatever.


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 26, 2005)

Snaga said:


> Hmm... there is something in HoME somewhere which tells us more about Cirdan and his motives etc but I can't offhand remember where it is. Maybe I will go a-hunting. I doubt it tells us if he was one of those that awoke at Cuivienen but I see no reason to think he isn't.



I think you may be referring to _The History of Middle-earth XII: The Peoples of Middle-earth; Last Writings_, but as far as I remember the question of his age isn't touched upon.



> We know Thingol was, and I think of them as being a similar generation.



I believe it is certain that Thingol wasn't one of the Firstborn elves, because he came to Beleriand without a spouse, i.e. he married Melian the Maia. All the Firstborn had spouses - they awoke in 72 couples, according to the elvish fable. Also, he had siblings, unless some of the original 144 elves were also siblings to each other, either symbolically or actually.


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## Celebthôl (Sep 27, 2005)

Yeah thats right, he was there, good work Ithy!


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## Arvedui (Sep 28, 2005)

Ithrynluin said:


> I believe it is certain that Thingol wasn't one of the Firstborn elves, because he came to Beleriand without a spouse, i.e. he married Melian the Maia. All the Firstborn had spouses - they awoke in 72 couples, according to the elvish fable. Also, he had siblings, unless some of the original 144 elves were also siblings to each other, either symbolically or actually.



Excuse me, but wasn't Elu Thingol (Elwë Singollo) one of the three Elves that were brought to Aman by Oromë?


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## Gothmog (Sep 28, 2005)

Arvedui said:


> Excuse me, but wasn't Elu Thingol (Elwë Singollo) one of the three Elves that were brought to Aman by Oromë?


Yes he was, but the only thing we know for sure is that his life began by the waters of Cuvienen. It is very possible that he was either Second or Third Generation Firstborn.


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## Arvedui (Sep 28, 2005)

Yeeeeez!  
But I guess that I should have expected that...  

Nevertheless, the point is that Ithy states that he "believes it certain that Thingol wasn't one of the Firstborn."
And I would say that it would have been strange if a leader was chosen who was not among the Firstborn! 

But you Mods stick together at all costs, don't you?    


...wiseguys....


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## Gothmog (Sep 28, 2005)

In point of fact, we don't know if any of the original elves met with Orome. The three who went to Valinor were chosen from those who were brave enough at the time to meet with him. Many would not. So of the original 144 some would have been lost to the 'Hunter' and some probably hid. So the ones chosen would be amongst the bravest and most ready to adventure at the time.


> But you Mods stick together at all costs, don't you?


More so when it is fun


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## Arvedui (Sep 28, 2005)

Gothmog said:


> In point of fact, we don't know if any of the original elves met with Orome. The three who went to Valinor were chosen from those who were brave enough at the time to meet with him. Many would not. So of the original 144 some would have been lost to the 'Hunter' and some probably hid. So the ones chosen would be amongst the bravest and most ready to adventure at the time.


But this is still a long way from


> I believe it is certain that Thingol wasn't one of the Firstborn elves





Gothmog said:


> More so when it is fun


I guess it is. 
Been there, done that.
Still missing the T-shirt, though.


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## Gothmog (Sep 28, 2005)

Well this is just a matter of opinion. Ithy believes it to be certain and I believe it to be likely that he was not. However, this does not get us any closer to finding out if Cirdan was  



> Still missing the T-shirt, though.


I'm sure we can find one in your size


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## Inderjit S (Sep 28, 2005)

Tolkien also talks about the bodies of the early Elves being more like the bodies or mortal men, and of many of them 'dieing' or leaving their bodies, afterwhich their spirits were said to go to the dark, so I guess a lot of the First Generation may have passed away. 

Thingol married Melian had quite the extended family, he had two brothers and several cousins, Ingwe also had a sister and Finwe met Miriel in Aman. As for 'respect' I guess the 'respect' of those who wished to go to Aman would be given to those who were taken by Orome as embassadors, rather than Elves who were older than them. But Tolkien does talk about their 'bitter' debate between the Eldar on whether or not to go to Aman, and how this bitterness seemed to pass through the years until the Avari met the Eldar in Beleriand. Half of the Tatyar (Noldor) went to Aman, something like three fourths of the Teleri set out to go to Aman of whom more than half became Nandor or Sindar, even then most of the Teleri who went, went because they loved their kings and because their kin or friends were going-though perhaps there was a power struggle betweent he descendants of the original three Elves and Elwe and Finwe if they were not descended from them and if the Elves held such things in reverence-the Noldorin Avari seem to be particularily embittered, but they also seem to be nomadic and under no fixed ruler. 

Cirdan seems to be a pretty ancient Elf-and one who was high among the factional Teleri-he seemed to have led the first experiments on boat-making etc. off the coasts of the Sea of Rhun. His original name, 'Nowe' is also in form like the names of the only other ones preserved from the legends, Finwe, Elwe and Olwe, it is also of uncertain origin and so implies that it is a very 'old' name. Perhaps Ingwe was the son of Imin and so was able to easily persuade the Vanyar to depart.


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 29, 2005)

Arvedui said:


> Excuse me, but wasn't Elu Thingol (Elwë Singollo) one of the three Elves that were brought to Aman by Oromë?



Yes he was, I was not disputing that. Perhaps what you were questioning was that I referred to Thingol as not being of the 'Firstborn', by which I meant that I believe he did not awake at Cuivienen, not that he wasn't an elf!  He came to Beleriand without a spouse, and that's why I think he cannot be of the original 144, though a tiny possibility could be that his 'original' wife perished somehow, but I don't find that likely.


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## Arvedui (Sep 30, 2005)

I was only questioning your reasoning...
I cannot quite accept the idea that because someone didn't have a wife, he could not have been one of the truly First-born.


> though a tiny possibility could be that his 'original' wife perished somehow, but I don't find that likely.


Neither do I.


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 30, 2005)

Arvedui said:


> I was only questioning your reasoning...
> I cannot quite accept the idea that because someone didn't have a wife, he could not have been one of the truly First-born.
> 
> Neither do I.



Well, it is clearly stated that the 144 original elves awoke in 72 couples of 'husband and wife' (so to speak). Why do you find that hard to accept?


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## Arvedui (Sep 30, 2005)

Ithrynluin said:


> Well, it is clearly stated that the 144 original elves awoke in 72 couples of 'husband and wife' (so to speak). Why do you find that hard to accept?


Because I had allowed myself to forget about that, OK...


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## Ingwë (Sep 30, 2005)

Ithy's thread Círdan is very interesting  
It is said that Cirdan is related to Thingol, as he mentioned. So he has relatives. He wouldn't have if he awoke at the Lake. Probably he was born near the lake


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 30, 2005)

Ingwë said:


> It is said that Cirdan is related to Thingol, as he mentioned. So he has relatives. He wouldn't have if he awoke at the Lake. Probably he was born near the lake



But why not? Like I said earlier:



> About Thingol and Cirdan being related, Cirdan and his (unnamed) wife could have had a child who came to be Thingol's (grand)mother/(grand)father.



Another possibility I've thought about: Even though the 144 elves awoke 'just like that' (i.e. without being conceived apparently), why couldn't some of them have been related to one another, either actually (elflad #1 being a brother to elflass #2; they both have their spouses, so their offspring are related) or symbolically (certain elves being brothers and sisters _in the mind of Iluvatar_, much like some of the Ainur, e.g. Manwe and Melko were brothers thus). So Cirdan could be one of the 144 'original' elves that awoke by Cuivienen, his brother or sister being Thingol's forefather/mother.


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## Ingwë (Oct 1, 2005)

Interesting...
But don't you think that Tolkien would say that Thingol is a descendant of Cirdan if he was? But if it is not said we cannot guess


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