# Ruffians



## krash8765 (Feb 20, 2003)

During this chapter the 4 companions encounter a lot of ruffians. Are these ruffians orcs or just dunlend men? Or is there a combination?


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## Niniel (Feb 20, 2003)

I always thought they were just hobbits. Definitely not Orcs.


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## aragil (Feb 20, 2003)

Are you talking about the Scouring of the Shire?
If so, then those were lackeys under the command of Saruman, who, as we all know, crossed Orcs with Men. Certainly some of these creatures were "Orc-men" or "Goblin-men", same as those which fought at Helm's Deep and at the Fords of Isen. The amount of Orc-blood they carry varies, but there are several remarks to their Orc-ish characteristics (as also with Bill Ferny's squint-eyed southern friend at Bree). In my opinion, these half-Orcs referred to themselves as 'Uruk-hai'.


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## pgt (Feb 23, 2003)

Are you saying the ruffians from Scouring were Uruk-hai?

---

As far as the dudes partying at the Prancing Pony from the South - I do NOT believe they were Dunlandings. But beyond that I don't know who they were. 

Bill's friend - dunno - stands to reason he was a Saruman lackey but then he was in cahoots w/ the 9 too (being pre Saruman treason against Sauron - is that the explanation? Was Sauron knowledgeable of Saruman's similar interests in the rings or Hobbits or whatever?)


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## Niniel (Feb 23, 2003)

I always thought that part of the reason why it was so awful that these ruffians did bad things in the Shire was that they were hobbits themselves, and helped the bad guys just because they were afraid of them. It made Frodo & co. ware that evil is not just something that is far away in Mordor, but also in their own home, and that many people are willing to help evil just to save their own lives.


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## krash8765 (Feb 23, 2003)

as I remember it specifically said that the most of the ruffians were Men when the hobbits were talking to them. The only hobbits affiliated with the Ruffians and sharkey were the shirriffs and Lotho baggins. But I was wondering if there some of the ruffians were uruk-hai?


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## Daniel (Feb 23, 2003)

I have pictured the 'Ruffians' from the Scouring of the Shire to be men--tough, fierce, men. However, I don't recall specifically reading that this was the case (although I might have) - it was more of an impression I had.


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## Arthur_Vandelay (Feb 20, 2004)

The Ruffians were a combination of "half-orcs" (but _not_, I would argue, Uruk-hai), Dunlendings and Bree-landers who were in the employ of Saruman ("Sharkey") and who were introduced into the Shire by him, probably in the months leading up to the Battles of the Fords of Isen.


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## Melko Belcha (Feb 20, 2004)

The ruffians are half-orcs, same as the southerner at Bree.

_Unfinished Tales - The Hunt for the Ring
Some while ago one of Saruman's most trusted servants (yet a ruffianly fellow, an outlaw driven from Dunland, where many said that he had Orc-blood) had returned from the borders of the Shire, where he had been negotiating for the purpose of "leaf" and other supplies............This Dunlending was overtaken by seceral of the Black Riders as they approached the Tharbad crossing...........The Witch-king had now a clearer understanding of the matter........Seeing that his Master suspected some move between the Shire and Bree (the position of which he knew) would be an important point, at least for information. He put therefore the Shadow of fear on the Dunlending, and sent him on to Bree as an agent. He was the squint-eyed southerner at the Inn. *C.T. note: See The Fellowship of the Ring. When Strider and the Hobbits left Bree Frodo caught a glimpse of the Dunlending ("a swallow face with sly, slanting eyes") in Bill Ferny's house on the outskirts of Bree, and thought: "He looks more than half like a goblin."* 

FotR - A Knife in the Dark
'So that's were that southerner is hiding!' he (Frodo) thought. 'He looks more than half like a goblin.'

TTT - Flotsam and Jetsam
'But there were others that were horrible: man-high, but with goblin-faces, sallow, leering, squint-eyed. Do you know, they reminded me at once of that Southerner at Bree, only he was not so obviously orc-like as most of these were.'
'I thought of him too,' said Aragorn. 'We had many of these half-orcs to deal with at Helm's Deep.'

RotK - The Scouring of the Shire
...they were disturbed to see half a dozen large ill-favored Men lounging against the inn-wall; they were squint-eyed and sallow-faced.
'Like that friend of Bill Ferny's at Bree,' said Sam.
'Like many that I saw at Isengard,' muttered Merry

RotK - The Scouring of the Shire
Merry himself slew the leader, a great squint-eyed brute like a huge orc._

You can see that when talking about the half-orcs, as Aragorn calls them, Merry, Aragorn, and Sam all think of the southerner at Bree, there is no mention of Uruk-hai, and Merry has alot of experiance with the Uruk-hai.

Why Tolkien changed orc-men to ruffians CT dosn't say, but in the drafts for The Scouring of the Shire it is clear they were half-orcs.

_Sauron Defeated - The Scouring of the Shire.
'Well, I am staggered,' said Pippin. 'Of all the ends to our journey this is that last I expected: to fight half-orcs in the Shire itself to rescue Cosimo the Pimple of all people!'

The hobbits drew their swords and pressed near him; but he backed away. Very orc-like all his movements were, and he stooped now with his hands nearly touching the ground.

The orc-man looked at them with such a leer of hatred as they had not seen in all their adventures.

And then as with a groan and a curse the orc-man [?toppled] over him he stabbed upwards, and Sting passed clean through his body.

If they gave themselves up they were kindly treated, and fed (for they were usually half-starved after hiding in the woods), and then shown to the borders. This sort were Dunlendings, not orc-men/half-breeds, who had originally come because their own land was wretched, and Saruman had told them there was a good country with plenty to eat away North.

The chief of the orcish men at Bywater said that he had told the Boss that it was no good sending hobbits, and that the men ought to have gone, but the Boss had said no.

(C. Tolkien) The original reading of C 'Merry himself slew the largest of the ruffians' was altered to '...the leader, a great squint-eyed brute like a huge orc'; with this cf. the description of the orc-man 'Sharkey' at Bag End in the A version. (The A version I have given above)_

And for the last note.

_Morgoth's Ring - Myths Transformed
There is no doubt that long afterwards, in the Third Age, Saruman rediscovered this, or learned of it in lore, and in his lust for mastery committed this, his wickedest deed: the interbreeding of Orcs and Men, producing both Men-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile._

I believe the southener at Bree was a Man-orc, and the ones Merry saw at Isengard and the ones in the Shire are Orc-men.


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## aragil (Feb 22, 2004)

I would say that the Morgoth's Ring quote refers specifically to Saruman's Uruk-hai, as any number of other quotes relates the two.

In man-orc "man" is adjectival, therefore you are referring to a creature that is an orc. In orc-men the reverse is true, therefore you are referring to men. Any man (ruffians in the shire and Goblin-faced men issuing from Orthanc) that is goblinish is an Orc-man. Orcs that show manish characteristics (staying out in the sunlight, mannish equipment- like Ugluk and co. and the Uruk-hai at Helm's Deep) would therefore be men-orcs. Personally I think both varieties fall under the broad category of Uruk-hai, which I would (according to my own knowledge and quite against prevailing lore) translate as "orc-men".


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## Grond (Feb 22, 2004)

Your own quote shows that the Southron man in Bree was a Dunlending.


> ...This Dunlending was overtaken by seceral of the Black Riders as they approached the Tharbad crossing...


 That does not mean he was not an Orc-man (which I believe that he was). Your very quotes prove that Saruman had been "experimenting" with Orcs for a number of years and my opinions along those lines would be in... pretty much... total agreement with Aragil's post. Man-orcs are mannish orcs... Orc-men were orcish men.


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## Arthur_Vandelay (Feb 23, 2004)

Would Bill Ferny be considered a "ruffian"?


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## Eledhwen (Feb 23, 2004)

Ruffians was a collective noun for the non-hobbit invaders of the Shire. They included the half-orc creatures mentioned, as well as wasters like Bill Ferney. The word was common in the UK, but is falling into disuse, 'louts' being preferred these days.


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## pgt (Feb 23, 2004)

1) Orcs are generally no match for Men in combat, strength etc. They are the lesser of the two by most any comparison save ability to reproduce.

2) Cross bred men and orcs that result in "Uruk Hai" are A) classified as Orcs and B) relative super-warriors that are a notable improvement on the breed and a relatively good match for men in combat, physical strength and endurance (they made Aragorn and Co look like amateurs in the marathon). If those were Uruks rather than ruffians I seriously doubt they'd have had the easy time of scouring they Shire they did.

3) Cross bred men and orcs that result in "ruffians" that are classified as men or orc-like men w/ orcish features are little more that buffoons that can be easily run out of the Shire and offer little to suggest they have the proud fighting, physical or combat traditions of the Uruk Hai.

Conclusion: COrrect me if I'm wrong but if the crossbred result is an orc - the physical strengths will be a closer match to men as in Uruk Hai. But if the crossbred result is more of a 'man' w/ orc-like appearances - the physical strengths will be more mediocre like the jokesters they ran out of the Shire.

Now is it just me or is there a disconnect in logic somewhere in here?


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## Grond (Feb 23, 2004)

pgt said:


> 1) Orcs are generally no match for Men in combat, strength etc. They are the lesser of the two by most any comparison save ability to reproduce.
> 
> 2) Cross bred men and orcs that result in "Uruk Hai" are A) classified as Orcs and B) relative super-warriors that are a notable improvement on the breed and a relatively good match for men in combat, physical strength and endurance (they made Aragorn and Co look like amateurs in the marathon). If those were Uruks rather than ruffians I seriously doubt they'd have had the easy time of scouring they Shire they did.
> 
> ...


This isn't really a disconnect at all. Neither Saruman's orcs, uruks, or his own men proved to have much worth anywhere in the story. The Rohannian forces at Helm's Deep were grossly outnumbered and yet were able to perform very well against far superior forces (in terms of numbers). Saruman's Uruk-hai appeared to be exceedingly tough but fairly stupid. I would assume the men sent to the Shire would have been "culls" from his army. I'm sure he felt he needed the "least" of his men to keep some dumb Hobbits in line. He didn't reckon on Sam, Frodo, Merry and Pippin becoming quite so "leaderly". Even after this though, Saruman wasn't surprised when his forces were bested. Read the "confrontation scene" at Bag End again and you'll see a Saruman bent on rending and scarring the Shire. He had no real "vision" he would be able to hold it. At least that is the way I read it... but as in all things Tolkien... I could be wrong.


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## pgt (Feb 24, 2004)

Grond said:


> This isn't really a disconnect at all. Neither Saruman's orcs, uruks, or his own men proved to have much worth anywhere in the story.



They outpaced Aragorn and Co. The main guard of Uruks around Ugluk acquited themselves well on foot w/ what gear they could carry against mounted enemies carrying longer weapons and arrows likely w/ better range. They were able to conduct war operations in broad daylight. 



Grond said:


> The Rohannian forces at Helm's Deep were grossly outnumbered and yet were able to perform very well against far superior forces (in terms of numbers).



This statement doesn't reflect any consideration for the massive advantage given a defender in a fortified defensive position. In historical warfare an overwhelming force is usually demanded to assault a well fortified position.

Besides they would have taken Helms Deep had it not been for the 'magical beans' of the Huorns (Rohans answer to teh magical eagles) showing up at the fatal moment... The taking of such a fortress simply requires massive mobilizatoin, organization and motivation at the very least. The Uruks were very much a key component to that strategy.



Grond said:


> Saruman's Uruk-hai appeared to be exceedingly tough but fairly stupid.



What we know of Uruk 'intelligence' can be largely inferred form the Death March - from that I gather the Uruks or at least that particular commander to be pretty shrewd and have a darn good idea what he was up against and the need to hoof it outta there. If you were in his shoes, given his orders, the various orc factions represented and the context of the Uruk commander's knowledge at that time - would you have done any better? If so I'd like to hear how...



Grond said:


> I would assume the men sent to the Shire would have been "culls" from his army. I'm sure he felt he needed the "least" of his men to keep some dumb Hobbits in line. He didn't reckon on Sam, Frodo, Merry and Pippin becoming quite so "leaderly". Even after this though, Saruman wasn't surprised when his forces were bested. Read the "confrontation scene" at Bag End again and you'll see a Saruman bent on rending and scarring the Shire. He had no real "vision" he would be able to hold it. At least that is the way I read it... but as in all things Tolkien... I could be wrong.



Saruman is largely rendered a babbling idiot by this stage and to me that lacks credibility but that's anoterh topic. 

So why do the cross bred results that are more mannish come off as weaker, slower, stupider etc... while the cross bred results that are more orcish (ie Uruk Hai) come off as having more serious capabilities in matters of warfare both physical and otherwise? The Uruk hai were the creme of his military while the other cross bred results were more 'man-like' and got simple rear guard duty in the shire.

Perhaps I didn't explain it clearly - for the sake of argument let's rank a pure 'man' as '10' on the scale of military prowess. We'll rank pure basic Orcs '1' for the sake of illustration. I'd place the ruffians at about 3. The Uruks I'd place well ahead of that - I'll call them 6. 

1 Orcs (like of the Misty Mountains etc...)
...
3 man-like ruffians w/ orcish feature (good for rear guard duty like Shire, well not really but...)
...
6 orc-like cross breeds like Uruk Hai (good for trusted errands and frontal assaults on fortified positions or attacking mounted cavalry, highly mobile on foot)
...
10 Men (Dunlendings, Rohirrim, etc...)

If they were more man like they should be closer to pure men in basic capabilities. If they were more orc like they should be closer to basic orcs in capabilities. The capabilities matrix of Uruk Hai vs Ruffians do not logically fit in the scale defined at both ends by pure men and pure orcs.

Perhaps it's the basic premise you don't agree with? I believe if there were top echelon Uruk Hai in the shire instead of moronic Ruffians - Pippen, Merry and co (those 2 were the ones that provided effective military leadership not Frodo or Sam) would have had a rougher time of it if they would have succeeded at all. Agree or disagree? In a dark alley would you rather have Uruks backing you up for Ruffians? Perhaps you would rather trust orcish ruffian men to go out to the river and fetch halflings to bring back to Isengard?


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## Eledhwen (Feb 24, 2004)

I think you performing way too much analysis based on way too little evidence. For the possible genealogy and origins of orclike creatures, read Tolkien's notes in History of Middle Earth book 10 (Morgoth's Ring). It is much more interesting than your ranking system!

On Helm's Deep, the advantage of the fortress was the advantage of the choice of whether to die in battle or die by starvation, such were the overwhelming odds against Rohan; but even that choice was taken when the blasting power was used. The Huorn rescue was Saruman's own fault - he chose to ignore a powerful near neighbour, deeming him harmless.

There was no parallel between this and the Hobbits of the Shire, who vastly outnumbered the Ruffians, though they were much smaller; and when the travellers returned, the hobbits had the tactical advantage too.

And as for saying Tolkien's Saruman/Sharkey lacks credibility, I have to disagree strongly. "How are the mighty fallen!" This is the same mean character, still burning and destroying, only with less power. Frodo's final mercy towards him awoke a spark that could have led to his 'cure', if he had not been such an abject bully at the same time. I have just read The Scouring of the Shire in the past week, and realised for the first time that when Worm attacks Saruman by cutting his throat, he is attacking his one remaining supernatural power - his voice - which was almost certainly how he talked Grima into killing Lotho, and so (he feels) robbing him of his own final hope of cure.


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## pgt (Feb 24, 2004)

Eledhwen said:


> I think you performing way too much analysis based on way too little evidence. For the possible genealogy and origins of orclike creatures, read Tolkien's notes in History of Middle Earth book 10 (Morgoth's Ring). It is much more interesting than your ranking system!



Sorry but analysis and trivia are what it's about for me at this stage. Oh I have no doubt any ranking system is a bore compared to that!  and yes I need to read that someday - it's on my to-do list! But until then if you have any points to make from those notes - I'd love ot hear them.

All I'm saying is the capabilities and the physical attributes do not quite seem to be a logical 'fit' is all on the cross-breed 'scale' between men and orcs... There is this illogical jumping around w/o analogy to the scale.



Eledhwen said:


> On Helm's Deep, the advantage of the fortress was the advantage of the choice of whether to die in battle or die by starvation, such were the overwhelming odds against Rohan; but even that choice was taken when the blasting power was used. The Huorn rescue was Saruman's own fault - he chose to ignore a powerful near neighbour, deeming him harmless.



Precisely in conventional (non Huorn) war w/ the Uruks et al - Rohan would have been defeated one way or the other. Saruman's own miscalculation about the ents/huorns should not be held against the Uruks.



Eledhwen said:


> There was no parallel between this and the Hobbits of the Shire, who vastly outnumbered the Ruffians, though they were much smaller; and when the travellers returned, the hobbits had the tactical advantage too.



My opinion is that from a military capability standpoint - the Ruffians are unimpressive. Compared to orc combatants perhaps and certainly Uruks described through the books - they seem a relative joke. The hobbits weren't much better but certainly up to the task in this scenario. 



Eledhwen said:


> And as for saying Tolkien's Saruman/Sharkey lacks credibility, I have to disagree strongly. "How are the mighty fallen!" This is the same mean character, still burning and destroying, only with less power. Frodo's final mercy towards him awoke a spark that could have led to his 'cure', if he had not been such an abject bully at the same time. I have just read The Scouring of the Shire in the past week, and realised for the first time that when Worm attacks Saruman by cutting his throat, he is attacking his one remaining supernatural power - his voice - which was almost certainly how he talked Grima into killing Lotho, and so (he feels) robbing him of his own final hope of cure.



A) This assumes that Saruman's meanness utterly dominates his life. It does not. He was not corrupted or bad or treacherous his entire life - the years of his life's work includes more than this. Only teh later stage(s) of his life story on ME reflect this bad turn.

B) If this is the "same character" - Saruman was no slouch in climbing his way up to industriously building his little empire in a relatively short period of time essentially from scratch. Not having near the size or scope or natural boundaries and experience of Mordor - his 'deal' is done quite effeciently. Yes he made some ultimate mistakes or at least one key oversight but this guy was shrewd more often than not in creating his nasty little domain. If he's the 'same character' then he still has the same mental capacity, same experience, same knowledge no? Powers or no, his mind is potentially one of the most dangerous weapons anyone could possess. Doubly so combined w/ his voice. (I submit that Saruman 'could' have been the ideal antagonist to replace Sauron in sequels that of course never were...)

That being said the move to personally takeover the Shire was not too bright - He plainly can see that certain shire folk are obviously in cahoots w/ the high and mighty of ME such as Elrond, Gandalf and King E. Does the same mind w/ it's years of knowledge and experience and ability to create a potent if small power out of Isengard think he'd be able retain the Shire? An attempt to do this represents very poor judgement that he hasn't shown before. Based on his history thru the story there isnt' much to suggest or explain such mental lapses as this from one that was once as sharp as he. Thus the disconnect. His actions towards the end were rediculously petty and small minded - not the actions of a great thinker and grand schemer w/ a massive ego. We are left w/ assuming his apparent dementia was brought on by the finality of utter defeat and loss but that's merely an assumption.

I really like your observation about going for the throat. Good one!


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## aragil (Feb 25, 2004)

pgt- read the Battle for the Fords of Isen. There the 'Orc-men' are clearly indicated to be more powerful than the 'Uruks' (incorrectly labeled, IMO), and are responsible for slaying Theoden's son Theodred. Whoever said the ruffians were 'culls' from Saruman's army (perhaps you) was right. These were the folks he could most spare to send away from the wars against Rohan. They were Orc-men, but were not representative of that people, being instead the weakest of the larger group.

Love the analysis of Ugluk's leadership ability in crossing Rohan. At last, someone who understands what I was saying in the Orc Pentathlon thread.


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## pgt (Feb 26, 2004)

aragil,

Really!? That being the case - that DEFINATELY is the logical fit that I was looking for. If you don't mind my asking - where again was this mentioned? I'm looking thru variuos chapters of TT and the the 'Helm's Deep' chapter at the beginning where the rider approaches Theoden's party and mentions being driven back from the Isen w/ great loss (later revealed the loss was not so great as they were actually scattered) but only mentioned "fresh forces" as the opponent generically... Also he mentions in addition to the forces of Isengard (Isengard purportedly being 'emptied') that Saruman has armed the wild hill men of Dunland. 

As an aside the wild men have their own ancient language - further indication that the neither the Southerners nor the Ruffians were Dunlendings - at least not the same as 'these' dunlendings.

Still the Ruffians come across as men w/ orcish features and I find little reason to suspect they are in the same league as either Uruks or 'orc-men' that participated in any battle that either scattered or caused great loss to the fell riders of the Westfold. 

The Ruffians are still 'odd men out' on the cross breed scale for me but your description of orc-men fits the cross breed scale perfectly.

thanks,

===

That was you? - I remember the Pentathlon thread well - perhaps you remember my 'death march' thread too? Beyond Ugluk's and those of his ilk's superhereo capabilities - I'd say Ugluk also gets a darn good prize for command and control under pressure - Off hand I don't know what he could have done differently or better. If he'd survived Sauron should have offered him a position splitting his time between Mordor's war college course on command and control and Commandant of the Minas Morgul special forces training school.

Here's an evil thought... Were they orc-men rather than Uruk-hai - would they have possibly made the forest first and been able to escape Eomer's crew? And if so imagine how much more that would have embarrassed Aragorn and Co.


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## Grond (Feb 26, 2004)

pgt said:


> aragil,
> 
> Really!? That being the case - that DEFINATELY is the logical fit that I was looking for. If you don't mind my asking - where again was this mentioned? I'm looking thru variuos chapters of TT and the the 'Helm's Deep' chapter at the beginning where the rider approaches Theoden's party and mentions being driven back from the Isen w/ great loss (later revealed the loss was not so great as they were actually scattered) but only mentioned "fresh forces" as the opponent generically... Also he mentions in addition to the forces of Isengard (Isengard purportedly being 'emptied') that Saruman has armed the wild hill men of Dunland.


The Battle for the Fords of Isen is in Unfinished Tales.


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## aragil (Feb 26, 2004)

Grond said:


> The Battle for the Fords of Isen is in Unfinished Tales.


Or, to be more specific,


> As soon as the enemy had gained possession of the eastern end of the Fords there appeared a company of men or Orc-men (evidently dispatched for the purpose), ferocious, mail-clad, and armed with axes. They hastened to the eyot and assailed it from both sides. At the same time Grimbold on the west bank was attacked by Saruman's forces on that side of the Isen. As he looked eastward, dismayed by the sounds of battle and the hideous Orc-cries of victory, he saw the axe-men driving Théodred's men from the shores of the eyot towards the low knoll in its centre, and he heard Théodred's great voice crying To me, Eorlingas! At once Grimbold, taking a few men that stood near him, ran back to the eyot. So fierce was his onset from the rear of the attackers that Grimbold, a man of great strength and stature, clove his way through, till with two others he reached Théodred standing at bay on the knoll. Too late. As he came to his side Théodred fell, hewn down by a great Orc-man. Grimbold slew him and stood over the body of Théodred, thinking him dead; and there he would himself soon have died, but for the coming of Elfhelm.


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## aragil (Feb 26, 2004)

pgt said:


> Here's an evil thought... Were they orc-men rather than Uruk-hai - would they have possibly made the forest first and been able to escape Eomer's crew? And if so imagine how much more that would have embarrassed Aragorn and Co.


 My personal theory is that the "uruk-hai" referst to both orc-men and man-orcs. I believe 'hai' means 'men' (as in humans, not males), while 'uruk' means orc. Hence 'uruk-hai' is a mix of orcs and men. Just my personal theory, which has found absolutely no acceptance amongst the linguists here.

And of course I remember the Death March thread- it is immortalized in the Great Smials. It was also immortalized in the pentathlon thread, Death Marching being there considered as one of the 5 great pillars of Orcdom.


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## pgt (Feb 26, 2004)

Thanks Grond and Aragil - my ignorance of UT continues to show itself! Yes I'm getting the hint!

Aragil if it makes you feel any better I too used think the same thing about 'hai' but now I'm not so sure anymore. But it is refreshing to see some sense of humor on the topic as well too.

thanks


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## aragil (Feb 26, 2004)

pgt said:


> Aragil if it makes you feel any better I too used think the same thing about 'hai' but now I'm not so sure anymore.


The other uses are Oghor-hai to describe the Druedain, and Olog-hai for the trolls that could withstand sunlight. Tolkien elsewhere says that the Olog-hai are bred from primitive human types, so '-hai' as 'men' fits here. Druedain is of course a Sindarin/Drug mix meaning "Drug-men", and then race is also called "Wild-men" or Woses (and their statues are called Pukel-men), so I'd say 'hai' as 'men' fits here as well. The sticky widget is whether all Uruk-hai belonged to Saruman. If Sauron's super-troops were also Uruk-hai, then the whole thing falls apart. However, if only Saruman's troops are properly Uruk-hai, whilst Sauron's troops are 'Uruks' (this assumes a difference beyond anglicization), then everything works nicely.


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## Eledhwen (Feb 27, 2004)

Grond said:


> The Battle for the Fords of Isen is in Unfinished Tales.


...but if you want to know the Tolkien version of Theodreds' burial, it's in the notes at the end of the section.


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## pgt (Feb 27, 2004)

Compelling points Aragil.

We sometimes bandy wild theories to 'make things fit' so here's one or two for you. 'If' Sauron's elite orcs are comparable to Uruk hai...

These orcs could have benefited from perhaps as much as 100s or 1000s of years of selective breeding programs. 

Saruman acheived a relative shortcut to similar results via a quick short cross breeding experiment.

Even the mountain maggots could have some roughly comparable elite - I'm reluctant to depend much on The_Hobbit but remember the final stand of the goblin 'guard' at the end of the Battle of 5 Armies? It took an extra effort to bring them down as I recall.

Just a few 'thoughts' that popped into my mind that may help you along on your path though at this point I'd guess you'd thought of those to some degree no?

buena suerte!


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## Tar-Elenion (Feb 27, 2004)

"Therefore the Noldor made names for the Second Race of the Children, calling them *the Atani 'the Second Folk'*. Other names that they devised were Apanonar 'the After-born', and Hildor 'the Followers'.
In Beleriand Atan, pl. Atani, was the name most used at first. But since for a long time the only Men known to the Noldor and Sindar were those of the Three Houses of the Elf-friends, this name became specially associated with them, so that it was seldom in ordinary speech applied to other kinds of Men that came later to Beleriand, or that were reported to be dwelling beyond the Mountains. The Elf-friends (Note 19, p. 412) were sometimes called by the Loremasters Nunatani (S Dunedain), 'Western Men', a term made to match Dunedhil, which was a name for all the Elves of Beleriand, allied in the War (see p. 378)."
"*These Quenya names were later adapted to the forms of Sindarin speech: Atan > Adan, pl. Edain*;"
"*Atan, pl. Atani 'Men', meaning 'the Second, those coming next'*. The Valar called them in full 'the Second Children of Eru', but the Quendi were 'the first Children of Eru'."
Quendi and Eldar

"*Atani 'The Second People'*, Men (singular Atan). For the origin of the name see 171; since in Beleriand for a long time the only Men known to the Noldor and Sindar were those of the Three Houses of the Elf-friends, this name (*in the Sindarin form Adan, plural Edain*) became specially associated with them, so that it was seldom applied to other Men who came later to Beleriand, or who were reported to be dwelling beyond the Mountains. But in the speech of Ilúvatar (41) the meaning is 'Men (in general)'."
"*Edain See Atani*."
The Silmarillion

"Maybe even in the days of the War of the Ring some of the *Drû-folk* lingered in the mountains of Andrast, the western outlier of the White Mountains, but only the remnant in tin woods of Anórien were known to the people of Gondor."
"6 It is stated in isolated notes that their own name for themselves was Drughu (in which the gh represents a spirantal sound). This name adopted into Sindarin in Beleriand became Drû (plurals Drúin and Drúath), but when the Eldar discovered that the *Drû-folk* were steadfast enemies of Morgoth, and especially of the Orcs, the "title" adan was added, and they were called Drúedain (singular Drúadan), to mark both their humanity and friendship with the Eldar, and their racial difference from the people of the Three Houses of the Edain. Drû was then only used in compounds such as *Drúnos "a family of the Drû-folk,*" Drúwaith "*the wilderness of the Drû-folk*." In Quenya Drughu became Rú, and Rúatan, plural Rúatani."
UT

"*Urukhai* is only a figure of speech. There are no genuine *Uruks*, that is *folk made bad* by the intention of their maker...".
Letter 78


"Lastly, it was in F4 that there entered the passage concerning the
new race of Trolls that appeared at the end of the Third Age. Here the
name was first Horg-hai, but changed as my father typed the text to
Olg-hai (Olog-hai in RK, p. 410). The account of them did not differ
from the final form except in the statement of their origin: 

That Sauron bred them none doubted, though from what stock 
was not known. Some held that they were a cross-breed between 
trolls and the larger Orcs; others that they were 
indeed not trolls at all but giant Orcs. Yet *there was no kin- 
ship from the beginning between the stone-trolls and the Orcs 
that they might breed together*;(5) while the Olg-hai were in 
fashion of mind and body quite unlike even the largest of Orc-kind ..."
PoME

"But at the end of the Third Age a *troll-race * not before seen appeared in southern Mirkwood and in the mountain borders of Mordor. Olog-hai they were called in the Black Speech. That Sauron bred them none doubted, though from what stock was not known. Some held that they were not Trolls but giant Orcs; but the *Olog-hai * were in fashion of body and mind quite unlike even the largest of Orc-kind, whom they far surpassed in size and power. *Trolls they were*, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race, strong, agile, fierce and cunning, but harder than stone."
App. F


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## Snaga (Feb 27, 2004)

Its like I've had this recurring deja vu before somewhere, and now its happening all over again.


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