# How did Sauron make darkness?



## Anamatar IV (Oct 7, 2002)

How did Sauron make the cloud during the war ofthe ring. There werent any white trees to burn. Was it just something that came from mt, Doom when sauron ordered it to? If so why didnt sauron make it again when the wind drove it away?


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## Maeglin (Oct 7, 2002)

I'm really not sure how he made the darkness, I never really thought about it. But I suppose it was just from all the smoke from the fires he used to make everything.


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## The Tall Hobbit (Oct 7, 2002)

Maybe it was just clouds of smoke and ash from Mount Doom.


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## Ceorl (Oct 8, 2002)

The Darkness was indeed some foul reek out of Orodruin, and was subject still to the laws of the world, whereby it can be blown back by the wind. Sauron cannot control the winds, as that is the province of Manwe alone.


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## Lantarion (Oct 8, 2002)

Could I see a quote on this? I recall a 'foul cloud' of sorts in the book, but if I could see the quote itself it would help to decide whether it was natural or not.


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## Elu Thingol (Oct 9, 2002)

My guess is that it was pumped from the huge machines that lay in Morder, but, your guess is as good as mine.


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## Grond (Oct 9, 2002)

I think since Manwe had imposed the rule that the Istari could not directly challenge Sauron's power, Manwe would not do so either. I am convinced that Sauron was behind the storm on Caradhras as well as influencing the direction that the reek of Orodruin followed. He controlled many things and possessed many powers that are only hinted at in the books.


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## gate7ole (Oct 10, 2002)

I have to disagree that the storm of Caradhras was Sauron’s action. We read:


> _The Ring Goes South_
> `I do call it the wind,' said Aragorn. `But that does not make what you say untrue. There are many evil and unfriendly things in the world that have little love for those that go on two legs, and yet are not in league with Sauron, but have purposes of their own. Some have been in this world longer than he.' 'Caradhras was called the Cruel, and had an ill name, said Gimli, `long years ago, when rumour of Sauron had not been heard in these lands.'


The same goes with the lake-creature near the Moria gate. I would say that the Ring itself is responsible for drawing near it the evil spirits of ME. Sauron was only taking advantage of the situation.
On the other hand, this does not go for the reek of Orodruin. Sauron was behind it.


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## Grond (Oct 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by gate7ole _
> *I have to disagree that the storm of Caradhras was Sauron’s action. We read:
> 
> The same goes with the lake-creature near the Moria gate. I would say that the Ring itself is responsible for drawing near it the evil spirits of ME. Sauron was only taking advantage of the situation.
> On the other hand, this does not go for the reek of Orodruin. Sauron was behind it. *


 Same chapter quoted about two paragraphs before...


> _from The Fellowship of the Ring, The Ring Goes South_
> 'I wonder if this is a contrivance of the Enemy,' said Boromir. "They
> say in my land that he can govern the storms in the Mountains of Shadow that stand upon the borders of Mordor. He has strange powers and many allies.'
> 
> ...


I tend to trust Gandalf on the matter.


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## Lantarion (Oct 10, 2002)

You mean that Sauron's arm has grown long?? 
The most vivid vision of such dark clouds that I get from the book is when Merry and gandalf are viewing the darkness outside, and when somebody else (was it Aragorn?) isviewing fast-moving and pitch-black clouds from the Houses of Healing.. That really makes it seem like Sauron is actually summoning this cloud to intimidate and confuse the population.
But let's be sensible and rational here (as far as we can, when dealing with a fantasy novel). Sauron was a Maia, right? And as far as I know, Maiar cannot control the weather as such, and cannot 'summon' spirits or ghosts or anything like that, right? Because if he could, why didn't Sauron do that?! Summon spirits of dread and fear to fist distract the minds of his enemies, and then attack and overwhelm them? 
But as we see, eg. Galadriel has the power to manipulate water (ie. the Mirror, supposedly the Phial..), so perhaps Sauron could control the evaporating and condensating water molecules in the clouds.. But how could he gain 'access' to them, and how does he turn the clouds black?! I think it's a bit far-fetched to say that Sauron just raised his arms and sent a huge, billowing black cloud surfing the skies to scare people, excuse me. 
The possibility of some sort of dispicable industrial machine pumping the black smoke out is an option, but how would the cloud be so dense, and how could it possibly move and still retain its condense form? Hmm..

Now, am I underestimating Sauron's powers, or are most of you overestimating them?!


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## Grond (Oct 10, 2002)

Gimli states, "His arm has grown long indeed if he can draw snow down from the North to trouble us here three hundred leagues away."

Gandalf flatly states, "His arm has grown long,"

That is clearly an absolute affirmation of Gimli's statement by Gandalf. It clearly illustrates that Gandalf was certain in his own mind that Sauron was responsible for the storm. That doesn't make Gandalf right... but as I said earlier, I tend to trust Gandalf's opinions on most things. He's wrong occasionally but right most of the time.


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## Leto (Oct 10, 2002)

far-fetched? This is a fantasy world, not much is 'far fetched'. Sauron is the most powerful evil spirit in the world. He can create evil black clouds which block out the sun to follow his armies (who don't like the sun anyways). When the armies are defeated, his immediate focus and power is withdrawn from that area, and the black clouds are blown away. This is not such a big deal, people. It is really more symbolic that a functional part of the story. The black cloud, Sauron's power and will, spreading out of Mordor, turning day into night. As the powers of the west fight back, there is a break in the clouds, and the sun shines through. At the final victory, a great wind out of the north blows away the foul blackness once and for all.


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## Ceorl (Oct 10, 2002)

Hmm Leto, I am afraid that you will find that nothing happened in JRRT's world without there being a reason for it; And Sauron is not the most powerful spirit either; Morgoth is, and he has been banished. Yet Sauron is only a servant to Morgoth and his power not nearly as great (though great it is).

In the matter of the clouds, I cannot find it, but I seem to remember a passage by one of the men of Gondor (probably Beregond) who made some kind of passing comment on the fould reek coming from Orodruin, although I probably read it wrong, knowing me.


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## Grond (Oct 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ceorl _
> *...In the matter of the clouds, I cannot find it, but I seem to remember a passage by one of the men of Gondor (probably Beregond) who made some kind of passing comment on the fould reek coming from Orodruin, although I probably read it wrong, knowing me. *


I completely concur that the reek of Gondor came from Orodruin. It was caused and directed by Sauron IMHO. The issue is this..."can Sauron cause a storm on Caradhras?" I think Gandalf (from his quote) thought he could. And since Gandalf is a Maia, I would think he would know.


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## JanitorofAngmar (Oct 10, 2002)

How did Sauron make darkness???

Hmmm, let me think for a minute....

How about a freakin "light switch??"

"light goes on, light goes off, light goes on, light goes off!"

Weeeeeeeee

I make darkness every night,
Therefore I must be Sauron!

All kneel before me and fear my wrath!

Please?

Sorry...too much coffee....

*ahem*

He just did. That's how.


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## Tyaronumen (Oct 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Grond _
> *Gimli states, "His arm has grown long indeed if he can draw snow down from the North to trouble us here three hundred leagues away."
> 
> Gandalf flatly states, "His arm has grown long,"
> ...



Actually, Grond, I read this to mean that Gandalf is pretty much saying, "Yeah, Sauron could manage this if he wished."

But I don't read it as an unequivocal: "Bingo -- you got it."


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## Grond (Oct 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Tyaronumen _
> *Actually, Grond, I read this to mean that Gandalf is pretty much saying, "Yeah, Sauron could manage this if he wished."
> 
> But I don't read it as an unequivocal: "Bingo -- you got it." *


 And I read it as Gandalf saying, "I think Sauron did it!" Different persepectives having differing opinions. That's what is so great about this forum. I can disagree (ever so slightly) with you and still love you. In case I haven't said it lately to one and all... "I LOVE YOU GUYS AND GALS"... and you too Yaygollum!!


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## Leto (Oct 10, 2002)

whether clouds came from orodruin, from machines, or just out of nowhere, created by magic...Sauron did it. He is the most powerful evil spirit in Middle Earth, Melkor has been banished. Nothing happened without a reason, but the reasons need not be laboured over so anally. Sauron is a powerful evil spirit that can use 'magic', whatever we think that means in the context of Tolkien's world. Dark ominous clouds of evil blackness which cover the sun are not beyond his abilities. Gandalf uses magic of light, and fire. But his power is veiled, only used to survive, and help out those in immediate need...he doesn't contest Sauron openly. If he did, or could, he might have summoned up a great burning light which could scorch the armies of Sauron, and melt away the foul reek from Mordor. Why not? My point was, people are making too big a deal of trying to explain the darkness, and whether it was Sauron's or not. Of course it was Sauron's doing, that's why it came out of Mordor, and blew away after the army had been defeated. How did he do it? Is not an important question, to the story, or in Tolkien's eyes, obviously. Saruman had a cover of darkness for his armies, as well...remember when Legolas was trying to see ahead, but he could only see shapes moving within an unnatural darkness his eyes couldn't pierce? It just so happened that they reached Helm's Deep at night, so the magical darkness didn't matter anymore. But I digress. Sauron, Saruman, and Gandalf have otherworldy powers, 'magic', and can manipulate forces of nature, etc, that others cannot. How did Saruman create the Uruk Hai? All we know from the book is, they suppose he bred orcs and men together somehow. How did the elves make the rings of power, and how did Sauron make the one? How does a creature breath fire, and how does the Witch King make fire run down his sword? How do the palantiri work? How does a ship sail beyond the circles of the world? Magic. It abounds in Tolkien's world, and that is all the explanation we need. It's magic.


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## gate7ole (Oct 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Grond _
> *And I read it as Gandalf saying, "I think Sauron did it!" Different persepectives having differing opinions. *


I agree that under different perspectives a completely different meaning is derived. But still Aragorn says explicitely that Caradhras works by itself while Gandalf only implies that maybe Sauron is responsible. I'll trust Aragorn's certainty than Gandalf's speculation.
Also, even explaining Caradhras as an action of Sauron, there were many other evil creatures not controlled by Sauron but by themselves. To name a few: Old Man Willow, lake creature, Barrow-wights.
The only definite is that every evil comes from Morgoth.


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## Grond (Oct 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by gate7ole _
> *I agree that under different perspectives a completely different meaning is derived. But still Aragorn says explicitely that Caradhras works by itself while Gandalf only implies that maybe Sauron is responsible. I'll trust Aragorn's certainty than Gandalf's speculation.
> Also, even explaining Caradhras as an action of Sauron, there were many other evil creatures not controlled by Sauron but by themselves. To name a few: Old Man Willow, lake creature, Barrow-wights.
> The only definite is that every evil comes from Morgoth. *


 Actually, the awakening of the barrow-wights is attributible to a visit to the Barrow-downs by the Old Witch-king of Angmar as he heads for the Shire. That used to be his realm and in HoMe, Tolkien attributes the activity of the Barrow-wights to Sauron vis a vis the Lord of the Nazgul. 

Tolkien also states that the Balrog (though not controlled by) was likely awakened by Sauron's ever increasing power.


> _from The Lord of the Rings, Appendix A_
> Thus they roused from sleep41 a thing of terror that, flying from Thangorodrim, had lain hidden at the foundation to the earth since the coming of the Host of the West: a Balrog of Morgoth. Durin was slain by it, and the year after Náin I, his son; and then the glory of Moria passed, and its people were destroyed of fled far away.
> 
> 41 Or released it from prison; *it may well be that it had already been awakened by the malice of Sauron.*


The other things you speak of would surely have responded to the second greatest evil of the world... Gorthaur the Cruel called Sauron.


> _from The Silmarillion, Valaquenta, Of the Enemies_
> Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel. In his beginning he was of the Maiar of Aulë, and he remained mighty in the lore of that people. *In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself.* But in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void.


Make no mistake about it, Sauron was one bad dude!!!


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## gate7ole (Oct 10, 2002)

Ok, Sauron may be proved that was behind all the evils of ME. But I have this one question. After the war of the ring and Sauron's destruction, will the evil disappear? Of course not. Many of Sauron's actions will take some time to be wiped. Orcs and wargs will still dwell hidden in forgotten caves. But after years of long labour, even if every orc is hunted down and killed, ME will not be freed from evil. And this will be so because the absolute Bad, Morgoth has contaminated the roots of Arda. Not until the final battle and the remake of it, will the world be freed from it. That's my point. Sauron was a malicious guy, played his part in almost every evil deed, but still he is but a fraction of the evil.


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## Grond (Oct 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by gate7ole _
> *Ok, Sauron may be proved that was behind all the evils of ME. But I have this one question. After the war of the ring and Sauron's destruction, will the evil disappear? Of course not. Many of Sauron's actions will take some time to be wiped. Orcs and wargs will still dwell hidden in forgotten caves. But after years of long labour, even if every orc is hunted down and killed, ME will not be freed from evil. And this will be so because the absolute Bad, Morgoth has contaminated the roots of Arda. Not until the final battle and the remake of it, will the world be freed from it. That's my point. Sauron was a malicious guy, played his part in almost every evil deed, but still he is but a fraction of the evil. *


 I would rather say he is not behind all the evils... he is just behind the reawakening of many evils in Middle-earth. In the same HoMe text, it speaks of Old Man Willow being awakened... also by Sauron's latest revival. But Gate7ole, you speak the truth. The text back you up 100% in the fact that Sauron is not the ultimate evil.


> _from The Return of the King, The Last Debate_
> For into the midst of all these policies comes the Ring of Power, the foundation of Barad-dur, and the hope of Sauron. 'Concerning this thing, my lords, you now all know enough for the understanding of our plight, and of Sauron's. If he regains it, your valour is vain, and his victory will be swift and complete: so complete that none can foresee the end of it while this world lasts. If it is destroyed, then he will fall; and his fall will be so low that none can foresee his arising ever again. For he will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in his beginning, and all that was made or begun with that power will crumble, and he will be maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape. And so a great evil of this world will be removed. *'Other evils there are that may come; for Sauron is himself but a servant or emissary.* Yet it is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till. What weather they shall have is not ours to rule.


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## Elu Thingol (Oct 11, 2002)

I tend to look at the last paragraph of the chapter when deciding who was responsible for the storm.



> "A cold wind flowed down behind them, as they turned their backs on the Redhorn gate, and stumbled wearily down the slope.* Caradhras had defeated them*".



The book says it outright Caradhras defeated them, not Sauron, not Saruman, but Caradhras.


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## Grond (Oct 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Elu Thingol _
> *I tend to look at the last paragraph of the chapter when deciding who was responsible for the storm.
> 
> 
> ...


 And you would be making an excellent point Elu. I'll change my opinion to Caradhras, just as Gimli implied earlier in the chapter.


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## Lantarion (Oct 11, 2002)

Grond, I think you might be looking at Gandalf's words ("His arm has grown long", in response to Gimli) a bit too straightforwardly. I obviously do not mean to undermine or question your opinion, but hear me out.

Gimli indeed remarks that Sauron's arm has grown long, ie. his might and power to affect happenings in faraway places. But instead of taking Gandalf's remark as a flat concurrance to Gimli's words, I lean towards the fact that he did not quite agree. 
Of course, it can be seen that Gandalf thinks that Sauron's arm has grown long. It is explicit, in fact, because Gimli's exact words only imply his opinion:


> "His arm has grown long indeed," said Gimli, "*if he can draw snow down from the North to trouble us here three thousand leagues away."*


The emphasis being on the word "if". I see Gimli's words as more sarcastic than serious; and gandalf's remark only 'corrects' Gimli in the sense that he pronounces the fact that Sauron's arm has indeed grown long. But at the same time Gandalf seems (at least IMHO) to be saying: "His arm has grown long, but I doubt he had anything to do with this." Gandalf of all people knew both Sauron's potential and the 'older forces' of the Earth (ie. Caradhras), and although he himself might not be completely sure of where the unnaturally fierce and frequent snowstorms are coming from, I think he doubts that it is Sauron's doing more than the fact that it might be the mountain itself. 
So IMO Gandalf did not believe that Sauron was calling the snows down, but he didn't want Gimli or anybody else underestimating him in any case.


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## Walter (Oct 11, 2002)

Sorry to interrupt all the wise loremasters around with some idle chatter, but I would like to throw in my two cents here anyways...

I usually tend to not bother the "deities" or other "powers" when there are simple physical explanations around, e.g. 

A snowstorm in the mountain regions in January does not necessarily have to be made by an evil spirit...

Neither an eruption of a vulcano...

Now, did Sauron make the snowstorm on Caradhras or the darkness at the Dawnless Day? Well, thinking he did, fits much more nicely into the air of mystery and fiction! And who cares if there are other - more plausible - explanations as well...


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## Elu Thingol (Oct 11, 2002)

That is possible but due to Aragorn's quote we can deem it not probable



> "I knew the risk of snow, though is seldom falls heavily so far south, save high up in the mountains. But we are not high yet; we are still far down, *where the paths are usually open all winter*".


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## TheDarkElf (Oct 12, 2002)

Ok, I'm new(ish) here, but I thought I'd give my interpretation of the original question. I always thought that the black cloud that blocked the sun was inevitable if all the hosts of Mordor were mustered. The amount of fire, and machinery to provide armour etc for the orcs would be immense, I always assumed that it was a by-product of the preperations for the war, and not 'magic' as some people put it. So although it was Saurons doing, it was not intentional.


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## Eriol (Oct 24, 2002)

Hello all, I see that this argument brings the best out of everybody's reasoning power. I'd just like to add a small matter for your thought:

Several characters mention that if Sauron wins, he would "cover all the lands in a second Darkness". Now, we (or I, at least) usually think of that as a figure of speech, but what if it is not? The Second Age is referred somewhere as the "Dark Age" in Middle-Earth (as opposed to the great bliss in Númenor). Unfortunately I don't have the quotes in my mind, but Gandalf and Treebeard (at least -- I think Tom Bombadil also) mention the Darkness in words than can be taken quite literally.

Imagine that -- an AGE beneath the Darkness of Sauron! The winds from the sea would help only the coastal peoples, and places like Eriador and Rhovanion would be pitch black! That would make him a REALLY bad dude...

Is this too crazy??


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## Lantarion (Oct 24, 2002)

Hmm, I haven't read the LotR in half a year.. Is there actually a quote saying "second Darkness"? Because as far as I know (ie. can remember ), Gandalf only says that in the movie.. Hmm.
And anyway, a "second Darkness" is completely figurative: I don't think Sauron wants to lay a huge black sheet of smoke over the whole world.. How would he see his slaves suffering and doind all his dirtywork in all that blackness?!


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## Grond (Oct 24, 2002)

The movie speaks of (in the opening dialogue) of a darkness that Sauron brings upon the land at the time of the Last Alliance at the end of the Second Age. It then speaks of the coming of a second darkness should Sauron regain the Ring. This is all figurative talk and does not relate to the real darkness Sauron brought about from his apparent control of weather/Mt. Doom eruption/etc.


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## Walter (Oct 24, 2002)

Another form of darkness which Tolkien used to "cloak" his evil spirits is the darkness that covers Ungoliant


> A cloak of darkness she wove about them when Melkor and Ungoliant set forth; an Unlight, in which things seemed to be no more, and which eyes could not pierce, for it was void.



And today I "accidently" stumbled upon a clue concerning the darkness that surrounded Melkor:


> ...And with regard to the Enemy, Melkor, in particular, he (Manwe) could not penetrate by distant mind-sight his thought and purposes, since Melkor remained in a fixed and powerful will to withhold his mind: which physically expressed took shape in the darkness and shadows that surrounded him.


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