# Thorongil AKA Aragorn!



## Morgul Agent (Mar 21, 2005)

Upon reading the trilogy for my 5th time, I did some perusing of the Appendices... and I noticed, I think for the first time, the crazy story of Thorongil!

Apparently Thorongil was the secret name used by Aragorn, when he lived in Minas Tirith in Gondor! This was just after he lived in Rohan for a time (as mentioned in the films, he rode with Thengel, Theoden's father.. this is when they mention his age, 87, in the movie). So after Rohan, he went to Minas Tirith and lived for something like 10 or more years as Thorongil. This was during Aragorns 40s I think, or somewhere around there. Apparently he was a great hero of Gondor, winning many battles, and Denethor was incredibly jealous of him!

Is it just me, or is the thought of Aragorn and Denethor knowing each other, having a rivalry, SO COOL! I think from what I read, Aragorn must have even known little Boromir, as an infant. Then eventually Thorongil just disappeared, and left Gondor. Some have apparently said that Denethor suspected who this Aragorn ranger really was, and that's part of why he opposed the 'return of the king'.

Anyway, I was happy to find something new in the books!


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## Alcuin (Mar 21, 2005)

Yes, Thorongil was a name under which Aragorn fought first in Rohan and then in Gondor. Thorongil became one of the closest advisors of Ecthelion II, father of Denethor. Leading a daring raid, he burned the ships of the Corsairs of Umbar. Then he vanished; apparently he went to Rhûn and Harad to explore those lands and their people. At the Council of Elrond, he speaks of traveling to Harad “where the stars are strange,” as they would be in our own Southern hemisphere for someone in the Northern hemisphere (and vice-versa). 

Denethor became quite jealous of Thorongil. Denethor had great insight into people, and perhaps he discerned who Thorongil really was. Thorongil had urged Ecthelion not to trust the counsels of Saruman but rather those of Gandalf, and Tolkien says that Denethor may have believed that Gandalf was plotting with Aragorn to seize the throne of Gondor, as he revealed in his rage and madness in his speech with Gandalf in “The Pyre of Denethor.”


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## Greenwood (Mar 21, 2005)

Morgul Agent said:


> I think from what I read, Aragorn must have even known little Boromir, as an infant.


It is not entirely clear that Aragorn would have known Boromir as an infant. In the tale of years in the Appendices it says Broromir was born in 2978 and that Aragorn's years of "journeys and errantries" were 2957-2980, but it does not specify when Aragorn, as Thorongil, left the service of Gondor. Clearly, it cannot have been later than 2980 when Boromir was two, but I can't find any definite indication of when it was. If Aragorn did spend some time in the south after leaving the service of Gondor, then he is unlikely to have been in Minas Tirith when Boromir was an infant.


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## Alcuin (Mar 21, 2005)

> There was dismay in the City at the departure of Thorongil, and to all men it seemed a great loss, unless it were to Denethor, the son of Ecthelion, a man now ripe for the Stewardship, to which after four years he succeeded on the death of his father.


Ecthelion died and Denethor succeeded him as Steward in 2984. It is clear that Aragorn left Gondor in 2980, and by inference, that he entered the service of Rohan in 2957. Denethor was not on good terms with Thorongil by his own choice, so it is unlikely that Thorongil would have met Boromir in any company other than his grandfather’s, which is possible. He never made any sign of knowing either Boromir or Denethor, and it does not appear that Boromir ever realized that Aragorn was as old as his father.

The quote is from 'Appendix A' of _RotK_.


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## Ingwë (Mar 21, 2005)

Denethor didn`t like Thorongil. But Ectelion love Aragorn and that`s why they were having a rivalry. Thorogil really was great hero and he won many battles. Gondor needs him but the kingdom is not ready for the return of the King. 
Aragorn maybe have known Steward`s son but re didn`t recognize him when Boromir arrived in Rivendell. 
But if Boromir know Aragorn he didn`t know who is the Ranger because he forgot about him. Maybe Boromir was young when Aragorn was in Gondor.


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## Greenwood (Mar 21, 2005)

Alcuin said:


> It is clear that Aragorn left Gondor in 2980


Can you give a quote from the LOTR that makes that case unequivocally? I am not saying you are wrong. I just haven't found anything that makes that date definite. In Appendix A when Thorongil declines to return to Minas Tirith it says "when last seen his face was towards the Mountains of Shadow." In the Tale of Years it says that Aragorn's years of "journeys and errantries" were 2957-2980 and that in 2980 he entered Lorien. If Aragorn was headed east or southeast when he left Pelargir and that was in 2980, it must have been a very quick journey for him to be back in Lorien shortly thereafter.


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## Henniden (Mar 21, 2005)

I have always found the whole Denethor-Thorongil connection really fascinating and quite a theme for almost Shakespearian tragedy. It's only mentioned in Appendices, but IMO it has great dramatic potential. I suppose there must have been, initially, a strong sympathy between Denethor and Thorongil (they were very alike, as Tolkien underlines) which gradually became jelousy and hatred, on Denethor's side. He had some good reasons for hating Thorongil, too. Not really nice to be always "second" to a stranger, and such a dangerous stranger! And one can also imagine that Aragorn could initally regard Ectelion as a sort of paternal figure (there was Elrond, but Ectelion is a mortal man, that's different) and that he could have some feeling of brotherhood with Denethor. I have been always tempted to imagine what would have happened, if Thorongil-Aragorn had been in Minas Tirith at the moment of Ectelion's death... (of course, I'm thinking here as if Aragorn were a real man, not just fictional figure, but well... it's a pleasant exercise)


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## Alcuin (Mar 21, 2005)

Greenwood said:


> Can you give a quote from the LOTR that makes that case unequivocally?





> There was dismay in the City at the departure of Thorongil, and to all men it seemed a great loss, unless it were to Denethor, the son of Ecthelion, a man now ripe for the Stewardship, to which after four years he succeeded on the death of his father.





Alcuin said:


> Ecthelion died and Denethor succeeded him as Steward in 2984. It is clear that Aragorn left Gondor in 2980, and by inference, that he entered the service of Rohan in 2957. Denethor was not on good terms with Thorongil by his own choice, so it is unlikely that Thorongil would have met Boromir in any company other than his grandfather’s which is possible. He never made any sign of knowing either Boromir or Denethor, and it does not appear that Boromir ever realized that Aragorn was as old as his father.


Help me, Greenwood. I must have missing something. The quote beginning, ‘There was dismay in the City…’ is from Appendix A in the RotK. Thorongil left Minas Tirith four years before Ecthelion died, and that happened in 2984. 2984 - 4 = 2980. Aragorn went to Lórien first. That sounds like a good plan to me: go someplace safe, get advice, and prepare yourself. Get engaged while you’re there, but your girlfriend’s dad won’t let you set a wedding date until you have a really good job. Aragorn had to go East and South soon after that, because 21 years later, by 3001, he’s helping Gandalf guard the Shire. If he spent 16 years in Rohan and Gondor, which were relatively close - "nearby," if you will -, and he spent many more years wandering, he’d best begin soon or he won’t be home on time for our adventure to begin. He told Boromir at the Council of Elrond,


> [T]he leagues that lie between here and Gondor are a small part in the count of my journeys. I have crossed many mountains and many rivers, and trodden many plains, even unto the far countries of Rhûn and Harad where the stars are strange.


If I can clarify matters, I will, and if I’ve made an error, I’ll admit it.


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## Greenwood (Mar 21, 2005)

Alcuin,

And I will admit when I missed something. I missed the later passage in Appendix A that says: "There was dismay in the City at the departure of Thorongil, and to all men it seemed a great loss, unless it were to Denethor, the son of Ecthelion, a man now ripe for the Stewardship, to which after four years he succeeded on the death of his father." This would indeed place Aragorn's departure from the service of Gondor in 2980. We are, however, left with the entry in the Tale of Years (Appendix B) which states Aragorn's "great journeys and errantries" ended in 2980. We are left then with something of an inconsistency where whatever Aragorn was doing between 2980 and 3001 is evidently not considered among his "great journeys and errantries". Loafing about Rivendell I guess.


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## Alcuin (Mar 21, 2005)

Greenwood said:


> We are left then with something of an inconsistency where whatever Aragorn was doing between 2980 and 3001 is evidently not considered among his "great journeys and errantries". Loafing about Rivendell I guess.


I accede to the inconsistency, worthy Greenwood! Perhaps there is something in _Peoples of Middle-Earth_ that will shed some light on the matter: a more extensive version of the Tale of Years is there, of which the one in ‘Appendix B’ is but an abridgement.


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## Alcuin (Mar 22, 2005)

Greenwood, 

I told you that if I made an error, I would admit it. You are correct: Aragorn journeyed into the South and East before III 2980. I was in error. Here is the reference.

In _The Peoples of Middle-Earth_, p. 240, “The Tale of the Years of the Third Age”, under the entry for year 2956,


> Aragorn meets Gandalf, and their great friendship begins. Aragorn undertakes great journeys, even far into the East and deep into the South, exploring the purposes of Sauron and all his movements. As an unknown warrior he fights in the service of Gondor and of Rohan. Because of his high race, the noblest among mortal men, his fostering by Elrond, and his learning from Mithrandir, and his many deeds and journeys he becomes the most hardy of Men, both Elven-wise and skilled in craft and lore.


With respect, 
Alcuin


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## Morgul Agent (Mar 25, 2005)

Thanks for all the insightful replies, I knew you folks would know your stuff 

I just think this is the coolest storyline and I wish Tolkien could have written more about it!


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## Erestor Arcamen (Apr 9, 2005)

*This is why I love Tolkien so much, he creates puzzles like this that are intertwined around the History of ME. He's definatly one of the greatest authors.*


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## Urambo Tauro (Apr 9, 2005)

Alcuin said:


> Aragorn meets Gandalf, and their great friendship begins. Aragorn undertakes great journeys, even far into the East and deep into the South, exploring the purposes of Sauron and all his movements. As an unknown warrior he fights in the service of Gondor and of Rohan. Because of his high race, the noblest among mortal men, his fostering by Elrond, and his learning from Mithrandir, and his many deeds and journeys he becomes the most hardy of Men, both Elven-wise and skilled in craft and lore.


Does Aragorn's Greatest Journey perhaps take place during this time?


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