# Orthanc-stone:Unbreakable?



## Odin (Jan 26, 2013)

I remember reading somewhere that the tower of Orthanc was invincible. The Ents with all their strength couldn't break into it, and even Gandalf the White could not enter without the Key of Orthanc.

Just how impenetrable was Orthanc? Could Saruman have survived if he'd stayed there?


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## Bucky (Jan 28, 2013)

Yup, you are correct.


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## Odin (Jan 28, 2013)

Bucky said:


> Yup, you are correct.



How was Orthanc so strong?

Not even Bara-dur was invincible, it crumbled when the Ring was destroyed.


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## Calion (Jan 29, 2013)

I'm not sure what it took to raze Barad-dur to the ground (though leaving the foundations intact) at the end of the War of the Last Alliance, but I presume that a force capable of destroying Barad-dur would have been able to destroy Orthanc as well. Orthanc was built by Numenoreans in Exile, and I don't see why it should be particularly stronger than Minas Anor or Minas Ithil. They were probably all near-invincible, but not absolutely so; it took the Nine and two years of siege to capture Minas Ithil, and it took the especially enhanced power of the Black Captain and Grond to breach even the gate (not the walls) of Minas Tirith.


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## HLGStrider (Jan 31, 2013)

I somehow got the impression that Orthanc was carved out of a single rock. I don't know why, but that has always been my impression of it, that rather than being built stone by stone, it was carved and therefore would lack the seams and cracks of a brick and mortar fortress. I don't think this was ever explicitly stated, however. I am doing some quick reading and I think it was lines like "The many face of the stone had sharp edges as though they had been newly chiseled." 

Whether my impression is correct or not, it does seem to suggest a singular structure built with extreme craft and strength. 

Also, the black stone that shines as if wet is an interesting material for building. It makes me think of Obsidian or volcanic stone which is not what I usually think of when I think of ancient building materials.


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## Mike (Jan 31, 2013)

Fun fact: the same stone used for Orthanc was also used for the outermost wall of Minas Tirith. So, unlike the many, many artistic depictions, the white city had one black wall.


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## Valandil (Jan 31, 2013)

Mike said:


> Fun fact: the same stone used for Orthanc was also used for the outermost wall of Minas Tirith. So, unlike the many, many artistic depictions, the white city had one black wall.



Yes - quite correct!


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## Valandil (Jan 31, 2013)

Odin said:


> :
> :
> Just how impenetrable was Orthanc? Could Saruman have survived if he'd stayed there?



Only if he was somehow able to eat the stone of Orthanc. :*D


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## HLGStrider (Feb 1, 2013)

Mike said:


> Fun fact: the same stone used for Orthanc was also used for the outermost wall of Minas Tirith. So, unlike the many, many artistic depictions, the white city had one black wall.



Maybe they white washed it Tom Sawyer style (by telling the Riders of Rohan that white washing walls was a great honor. . .It's late here; I have no idea what I'm talking about any more).


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## Eledhwen (Feb 1, 2013)

Obsidian is not very hard; with a hardness of about 5.5 moh, about the same as window glass. However, there is another mineral structure that fits the description, but which is not, in our world, found in the quantities required for large construction works:


> A natural black diamond has the same crystalline structure and chemical properties as a white one (ie: it's hardness is 10 moh). It is made from crystalline carbon and is the hardest natural substance known to mankind. This means that it cannot be cut or scratched except by a harder diamond. However, the inclusions and impurities contained within the structure of a black diamond make it more likely to fracture and splinter during the cutting process than its white counterpart, although blacks tend to be harder once cut.


Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/3878001

The moh scale is a crude measure that boils down to scratch-resistance; which is appropriate for Orthanc! The scale goes from 1 to 10, whereas the difference between talc (1 moh) and diamond (10 moh) in absolute hardness is talc (1) and diamond (1500).

I therefore moot that Orthanc (and the outer wall of Minas Tirith, as Mike points out) were hewn from black diamond. Barad-dûr's collapse was more likely caused by severe undermining and untenable structures which failed when the power that held them together was undone.


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## Prince of Cats (Feb 1, 2013)

Say what you will, Orthanc will always be white in my mind :*D I must have skimmed over the black part in my first reading of LOTR in middle school and it's stuck with me ever since

Regardless - very interesting deduction, Eledhwen! And you too, Elgee RE: the Whitewash Trick


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## Odin (Feb 1, 2013)

Prince of Cats said:


> Say what you will, Orthanc will always be white in my mind :*D I must have skimmed over the black part in my first reading of LOTR in middle school and it's stuck with me ever since
> 
> Regardless - very interesting deduction, Eledhwen! And you too, Elgee RE: the Whitewash Trick



That actually makes a lot of sense, the abode of the White Wizard should be white.

I can picture it now, a gleaming white tower that constantly shone. Pristine and impenetrable, Orthanc would remain white and pure as the surrounding landscape became dark and ravaged.

I think the black rock of Orthanc is meant to symbolize Saruman's black heart. Despite his outer appearance The Lord of Isengard is twisted and evil, just like his home.


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## Eledhwen (Feb 2, 2013)

Odin said:


> I think the black rock of Orthanc is meant to symbolize Saruman's black heart. Despite his outer appearance The Lord of Isengard is twisted and evil, just like his home.


This may well have been a literary device of Tolkien's; but the tower was built by Númenóreans in exile. It seems to have been made from one piece of stone; but to carve any design onto something so hard would seem impossible. Mankind has only just begun to learn how to manipulate carbon particles at a nano-level; but plainly the elves of old were masters of working with crystals and gemstones and some of this knowledge may have survived so that a crystalline structure could be made to fuse at a molecular level to be hard and strong and also embellished.

I got this thought from Terry Pratchett's Wee Free Men, the Nac Mac Feegle who, having destroyed an inn down to rubble, re-built it overnight, exactly the same but accidentally back to front, by re-attaching "them mollycules". (I love the Nac Mac Feegle!).


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## HLGStrider (Feb 2, 2013)

Eledhwen said:


> This may well have been a literary device of Tolkien's; but the tower was built by Númenóreans in exile. It seems to have been made from one piece of stone; but to carve any design onto something so hard would seem impossible. Mankind has only just begun to learn how to manipulate carbon particles at a nano-level; but plainly the elves of old were masters of working with crystals and gemstones and some of this knowledge may have survived so that a crystalline structure could be made to fuse at a molecular level to be hard and strong and also embellished.
> 
> I got this thought from Terry Pratchett's Wee Free Men, the Nac Mac Feegle who, having destroyed an inn down to rubble, re-built it overnight, exactly the same but accidentally back to front, by re-attaching "them mollycules". (I love the Nac Mac Feegle!).



Thankfully, since this is fantasy any blanks in the logic/knowledge can just be filled in with "magic." 

There is a certain natural elegance to Tolkien's world but every so often there are things that can't really be explained so we just have to assume that either magic defies the laws of nature or that the laws of nature in ME are simply different.


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## Prince of Cats (Feb 2, 2013)

Eledhwen said:


> I got this thought from Terry Pratchett's Wee Free Men, the Nac Mac Feegle who, having destroyed an inn down to rubble, re-built it overnight, exactly the same but accidentally back to front, by re-attaching "them mollycules". (I love the Nac Mac Feegle!).



Dere c'n onlie be whin t'ousand! 

Nac mac Feegle wha hae! 

Crivens!! 

Nae king! Nae quin! Nae laird! Nae master! We willna be fooled again!

Ya ken?


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## Odin (Feb 6, 2013)

I think you're right, Orthanc is mighty but it wouldn't be able to withstand the full power of Mordor.

Still, the Tower of the Cunning Mind is quite formidable and it seems a bit of a waste to make it into a garden. Wouldn't it be a valuable fortress for Gondor?

Also, did the Palantir of Orthanc return to the tower after the War of the Ring?


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## HLGStrider (Feb 6, 2013)

Odin said:


> I think you're right, Orthanc is mighty but it wouldn't be able to withstand the full power of Mordor.
> 
> Still, the Tower of the Cunning Mind is quite formidable and it seems a bit of a waste to make it into a garden. Wouldn't it be a valuable fortress for Gondor?
> 
> Also, did the Palantir of Orthanc return to the tower after the War of the Ring?



Aragorn too possession of the Palantir and I would hazard a guess that he would keep it closer to himself than Orthanc. After all, Denethor's death rendered his stone somewhat useless (I forget if it says only a strong mind would be able to see anything but a pair of withering hands or if it just says it always just shows withering hands, but either way, it is now kind of a creepy artifact and I doubt Aragorn would prefer its use) and once Barad-dur falls and Sauron's stone is out of the equation, the Orthanc stone would have a great deal of value in keeping an eye on the far reaches of Gondor. 

It might be more use as a fortress in time of war, but after Sauron fell, there wouldn't be a distinct threat in that area to defend against and a garden is always nice, especially in Middle Earth. At the end of the Lord of the Rings we see may signs that places that were once dangerous or evil are being turned to peaceful and good purposes (Faramir is given Ithilien for instance and reclaims it for the crown). Guarding the Gap of Rohan (which is the stated purpose of the tower) is probably less important in these peaceful times.


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