# Sauron to Gandalf...or something, i dunno...make sumthin better! :p



## Celebthôl (Jul 7, 2004)

Hey dudes, its been too long! Anyway, i was watchin Return of the King, the part where Gandalf was worried about facing the Witch-King...and i began to think...how much more powerful is Sauron to Gandalf? I mean, would Sauron knock Gandalf over with his pinky in a matter of seconds? Or would there be a long drawn fight? Thoughts please?


----------



## greypilgrim (Jul 7, 2004)

Sauron would crush Gandalf. He had the one ring, there's no way you can beat Sauron with the ring. Impossible.


----------



## Celebthôl (Jul 8, 2004)

Duh, thats not what im saying, im saying, would Gandalf get crushed in seconds, or would he be able to hold out for longer? There no use debating if he'd win or lose, he would lose, but after how long?


----------



## Carcharoth (Jul 8, 2004)

The Istari were Maia in valinor, but when they took upon their human forms they lost much of their power, and Sauron was a Maia and did not have to withhold any of his power. Also, Gandalf knows fear in his Istar form so I think he would be overcome with fear if he was face to face with the dark lord and Sauron would crush him in a matter of seconds.


----------



## Celebthôl (Jul 8, 2004)

As i saw it in both book and film, when he was in his White form, he did not suffer fear, (except in the film where the Witch-King is mentioned, this isnt true in the book as i remember), as the white, he was much more powerful that as the grey, tho still not as powerful as Sauron, i'd have thought he could have lasted some time against Sauron.


----------



## greypilgrim (Jul 8, 2004)

He could use a lightning spell on him, or he could try killing him with Glamdring too, even though Sauron is way stronger. I think it would take a while, but sauron would actually defeat Gandalf in under an hour. Maybe two hours, tops.

Now if the White gandalf was ther, on shadowfax, he'd just run away...and sauron would have to send his ringwraiths after him.


----------



## Saucy (Jul 8, 2004)

well he might have the one ring, but what does the one ring do?
i mean he couldnt use it has a weapon!, doenst it give u power to control others hence i think Sauron would have someone, the ringwraiths perhaps dispose of gandalf, i dont think it is actually him with the strength to do it himself.


----------



## greypilgrim (Jul 8, 2004)

Maybe he'd put the ring on and dance circles around Gandalf invisible.


----------



## Saucy (Jul 8, 2004)

oh i thought he was gonna drop the ring at his head from the top of the tower and hoped it had the same effect has dropping a penny on someone from the top of the eiffel tower.....


----------



## Tanelorn (Jul 9, 2004)

Why is it that in the films, when Sauron has the ring on he is still visible?
And if he only has more power when wearing the ring, what happens if he wants to change between visible/invisible? Can he control the ring, and force it to make him visible/invisible?


----------



## Celebthôl (Jul 9, 2004)

Tanelorn said:


> Why is it that in the films, when Sauron has the ring on he is still visible?
> And if he only has more power when wearing the ring, what happens if he wants to change between visible/invisible? Can he control the ring, and force it to make him visible/invisible?



In a word: Yes

He had power over the ring, he was the only being in Middle Earth who did, note what Gandalf says about Tom Bombadil in the CoE, somethin like:

"say not that he had power over the ring, only that the ring had no power over him"

It did not make Sauron invisible because Sauron had power over it.

Gandalf would not have run away from Sauron if it came to it, i dont think, even when he was the Grey he did not run from even the Balrog, as the White, he would not have run i dont think.


----------



## GuardianRanger (Jul 10, 2004)

Celebthôl said:


> Duh, thats not what im saying, im saying, would Gandalf get crushed in seconds, or would he be able to hold out for longer? There no use debating if he'd win or lose, he would lose, but after how long?



Out of curiosity, why do you think he (Gandalf) would definitely lose? Sauron does not have the One Ring in the Third Age. They both are Maia.

I'm talking about one-on-one confrontation. No wraiths involved.

Of course this is all hypothetical.


----------



## Celebthôl (Jul 11, 2004)

GuardianRanger said:


> Out of curiosity, why do you think he (Gandalf) would definitely lose? Sauron does not have the One Ring in the Third Age. They both are Maia.
> 
> I'm talking about one-on-one confrontation. No wraiths involved.
> 
> Of course this is all hypothetical.



Thats what i meant aswell! Except i meant that Gandalf was White and Sauron had the ring. I.e. they were both at their full potential power-wise.


----------



## Saucy (Jul 11, 2004)

well the awnser to that one is really dependent on the person who trys to awnser its outlook,

i mean it almost seems like a gd vs. evil question
wich can be debated for hours just like was the cup half full or half empty


----------



## Celebthôl (Jul 12, 2004)

Well it obviously is that, tho its an easy answer, Sauron wins everytime, however neither are the source of good or evil, mearly offshoots of either, Sauron being a much stronger offshoot of evil than Gandalf is of good.


----------



## Saucy (Jul 12, 2004)

i disagree, i mean if u think about it Sauron winning is simply to predictable, Gandalf the representive of the good side iam sure would kick Saurons ass, because sauron would be so confident of a win, that he would not be expecting gandalf's power to be so strong, 
beisdes they are both fictional character and it is the nature of fictional characters to have the gd guy win.


----------



## Celebthôl (Jul 12, 2004)

Hence why they never came face to face in battle, Gandalf would have lost, there is no doubt about it. The Wizards were picked especially as to be weaker than Sauron so that they could not be tempted to go up against him in a show of power, their mission was to coax the free peoples of Middle Earth into fighting for themselves against Sauron. Gandalf HAD to do this to survive in effect, there was no other way of winning.
Yes it's to predictable that Sauron would win, and for good reason, he would have. There wouldn't have been any underestimating done, Sauron is the most powerful being in Middle Earth at that time.


----------



## Saucy (Jul 12, 2004)

but only with the ring, at the time when gandalf could of possible took him on he did not have the ring.
doesnt that make him more vulnerable to defeat?


----------



## Celebthôl (Jul 12, 2004)

Quoth the raven



> Gandalf was White and Sauron had the ring. I.e. they were both at their full potential power-wise.


----------



## greypilgrim (Jul 12, 2004)

Let's not forget that at the peak of his power, Sauron allowed on measley human to chop off his evil hand.


----------



## Saucy (Jul 12, 2004)

greypilgrim said:


> Let's not forget that at the peak of his power, Sauron allowed on measley human to chop off his evil hand.



thank you
 

i think gandalf stood a chance of winning,


----------



## Celebthôl (Jul 12, 2004)

greypilgrim said:


> Let's not forget that at the peak of his power, Sauron allowed on measley human to chop off his evil hand.



Well, for one thing he had been taken down by two of the mightiest if not the two mightiest warriors that Middle Earth had at that time, and they still couldnt get the job done properly, add to that that Isildur was NOT a measley human, he was of the race of Kings, and it makes Sauron sound less wussy than all that. It took the free peoples 3 best warriors and cost the lives of two of them, to take down Sauron, Gandalf was in no way as good a warrior in battle as any of those 3 (he was good of course, but not as good), if u were tripple teamed, and someone went hacking away at your hand with a sword, you'd lose it too! 
And its a lot to do with will aswell as physical prowess, Sauron had the greatest will in Middle Earth....arguably....(with Aragorn in mind of course!)


----------



## greypilgrim (Jul 12, 2004)

I mean measely in Sauron's eyes. I mean the human was measley... I mean Sauron thought... Gah! You know what I'm sayin.


----------



## Celebthôl (Jul 12, 2004)

That doesnt mean that he underestimated them  he never did as far as i remember, i mean, he saw and respected the power of Númenor the first time they assaulted him, and he groveled before Ar-Pharazon to spare his life. He always feared the race of Kings even up until Aragorn, but after he had gotten the Ring back, he would have been above fear.


----------



## Link 2 (Jul 12, 2004)

Gandalf (in his lower form) killed a Balrog.

I couldn't imagine Sauron taking on the same Balrog.

I can't imagine it would be that hard for any character to kill any other character. Remember, an Elf _almost_ killed the greatest being to ever enter Arda (Fingolfin vs. Morgoth).


----------



## Celebthôl (Jul 12, 2004)

But as i said, it doesnt just come down to physical prowess, it involves will power aswell, Balrogs have not to much, Gandalf has a LOT, but Sauron has even more, we may never know the extent of the Númenoreans and High Elves will power...


----------



## greypilgrim (Jul 12, 2004)

Yeah, but all Fingolfin did was cut off his foot.(Morgoth's foot)

Sauron's power wasn't tangible. He was a deciever, and spread fear. His strength was in numbers too. He wouldn't punch your lights out. Gandalf on the other hand...his power was "contained". He only used it when he had to (IMO). Also, as said earlier, he was only there to "set events in motion", not to punch Sauron's lights out.

Also, remember when Gandalf said something along the lines of him not even being tested yet, against the Witch-King when he was in Minas Tirith, and he seemed kinda scared then? Imagine what if Sauron broke through the gate of Minas Tirith and there's Gandalf sittin on Shadowfax. What's he going to do, hit him in the forehead with his staff like he did to Theoden?


----------



## Celebthôl (Jul 12, 2004)

Wouldn't punch your lights out? 'Course he would, he punched Gil-Galad's and Elendils lights out...for good! 
It was only in the film that he's scared of the Witch-King, in the book when hes the White, hes afraid of nothing.
Anyway, we're straying from the subject, we all know Gandalf would lose, but the question was, "how long would he last?".


----------



## Fredegar (Jul 12, 2004)

Sorry to be crudely literal here, but what physical form would this confrontation take?


----------



## Celebthôl (Jul 13, 2004)

Hehe, thats a good point! Gandalf would of course be looking like the old man, but in white, and Sauron would be...hmmm...im not sure...humanoid of course! No Wolves or Snakes this time!  I really dont want to say how he looked in the film, but i think im going to have to, unless someone who has anymore information that i do on him has any ideas?


----------



## Kelonus (Jul 14, 2004)

What form? Something fierce, terrifying and unbeatable looking. You know evil...


----------



## Celebthôl (Jul 14, 2004)

My best estimate would be a smaller version of Morgoth when Fingolfin fought him...


----------



## Link 2 (Jul 14, 2004)

Although guys, I do remember Gandalf saying this in The Two Towers:



> and I am dangerous, more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord




What about that? Is he admitting defeat?


----------



## Celebthôl (Jul 14, 2004)

Quite so, we know he'd lose, thats not the point of the thread, just, how long would it take for him to lose?


----------



## greypilgrim (Jul 14, 2004)

Hard to say. Gandalf fought the balrog for a while up on top of the Misty Mountains. Then he died though...and came back white.

Can Gandalf die twice?! If that were the case, where he couldn't get killed again, it would take infinity!


----------



## Celebthôl (Jul 16, 2004)

Well, he didnt "die" in the common sense of the word, he's a Maia spirit and they don't die, only their bodies, his body could "die" again of course, after all he was sent back by Manwë (we must assume) to complete his mission, he was the last Wizard left who was doing anything (that we know of), he was needed for the victory of the Free Peoples. If he was to die again, he may get sent back, but if he was to die fighting face to face with Sauron (a feet he was forbidden to do) he would most likely not have been sent back, due to him failing his mission and falling from wisdom.


----------



## greypilgrim (Jul 16, 2004)

Then the only way the fight _could be won_ of course, is if Gandalf cut the ring off his finger. But since he's not even allowed to fight Sauron, as you said, then I guess there is no fight, no winner, no answer.


----------



## Melian_the_Maya (Jul 29, 2004)

First of all, I think Sauron at the peak of his power (with the ring on his finger) would be far more terrible than a Balrog. Let's all remember that in the days of old man Morgoth, Sauron was his lieutenant, while the Balrogs were his subordinates and occasionally his bodyguards. I think that speaks for itself... Sauron would only have to send his ring wraiths and I am sure even a Balrog would begin to fade.

I think that Sauron's main strength was that of a tactician. He only did show up in the war against the Last Alliance out of arrogance. He would of course supervise the battle, but nothing more. When the power of the Ring gives him such immense power, he wouldn't need anything else, the list of allies is great enough to cover everything. I am sure that not even Gandalf the White would have been able to face all the Nine at the same time. Not fear would have made him bow but perhaps the black breath or their blades could have had an effect upon him. Sauron was not exactly your perfect example of fair play and he would use every trick he possesses to finish those who threatened him.

But direct confrontation is doubtful... Sauron was not stupid and his arrogance was a little shrunk by his last outburst. I am not too sure that Gandalf would lose the fight in a direct battle, but Sauron would never have allowed it!


----------



## greypilgrim (Aug 5, 2004)

So you're saying Sauron is a chicken?


----------



## Melian_the_Maya (Aug 7, 2004)

Well, we already know he was in a way cowardly, as he cared for his life more than for his ambitions and purposes (we all remember how he repented out of fear before Eonwe) and he was not exactly the most honourable of opponenets. I am not saying he was a chicken. I am sure that if his existence depended on it, he would have fought it off to the bitter end, but he would never have allowed it to come to that point in my view. He did not lack weapons in striking down Gandalf, I am sure of this, I think he just did not consider Gandalf alone more important than the Armies of Gondor, that's why he avoided sending a large force to stop the wizard.
That's not I think what you'd call a chicken, he was merely using every bit of cunning he possessed and also every means given to him. He would have called it preparation or caution.


----------



## Gildor (Aug 11, 2004)

Elendil and Gil-Galad managed to defeat Sauron when he had the One Ring, though it cost them both their lives.

I think Gandalf the White expending all of his energy in a desperate struggle would also have a chance of beating Sauron.


----------



## Khazad (Aug 15, 2004)

I just cannot understand how you decided Gandalf would surely lose. He looked like a old man, but he had lots of inner strenght that he seldomly showed. Only in the film Sauron was shown as a mighty warrior and we all know that we can forget that picture. Gandalf is as much a warrior as Sauron ever could be, at least I think so. During the end of second age Sauron only came out from is fortress after the Last Alliance troops forced him to do so. Sauron surely was not a warrior. Gandalf would have had a even chance to defeat him.


----------



## Celebthôl (Aug 15, 2004)

Yes it's true Gandalf was a good warrior, but Tolkien even states that Sauron is the most powerful being on Middle Earth, thats reason enough.


----------



## Red Istar (Sep 13, 2004)

Melian_the_Maya said:


> I am sure that not even Gandalf the White would have been able to face all the Nine at the same time.



Gandalf the _Grey_ did, on Weathertop!


----------



## Thráin II (Dec 30, 2004)

> There are few even in Rivendell that can ride openly against the Nine; but such as there were, Elrond sent out north, west, and south.


_The Fellowship of the Ring, Chapter 12, "Flight to the Ford"
_
Surely Gandalf is one of the few in Rinvendell who can ride openly against the Nine, and even if he is not considered as belonging to Rivendell he is more powerful than most in Rivendell.

By "ride openly" I assume he doesn't mean "race" but "fight" since Glorfindel was sent out to come between Aragorn and his companions and the Nine, which would have involved a bit of fighting at the worst.

So I think we can safely say that Gandalf (even the Grey) would have fared well against the Nazgul, all Nine of the together.

As for him vs. Sauron, I read somewhere (I don't recall where) about Sauron's might before the Ring, without the Ring and with the Ring and I recall it being said that basically no one in Middle Earth could alone have defeated him, thus we can *safely* conclude that Gandalf *would have been defeated*.

How long it would have lasted depends on how you imagine the fight. Sauron, contrary to what the movies suggest, *does have* a physical form. He is described in the foreword to FotR I think, again, I'm not sure. Anyway, Tolkien says he has the shape of a man, yet somewhat bigger, and then some comments about him being dark and scary.

The fight in itself, I think, would have been something along the lines of Gandalf vs Saruman (when the latter posses Theoden) just with more violence.

It would have involved Glamdring though I don't think the blade would have cut the mustard, and it would have involved will power and spells also, all in which Sauron was the greater.

The duration, thus, I think would have been short, no longer than two-five minutes (two minutes is a LONG TIME, try holding your breath for two minutes to see how long it is).


HOWEVER, I find this particular scenario to be quite useless since such a thing would not have happened ever in ME.

Interesting to imagine the fight though, nice topic.


----------



## Thorondor_ (May 24, 2005)

If I were to place my bet, I would go with Gandalf. Even though he says he is less powerfull than Sauron, he most likely has a special connection with the "Authority" that sent him back (Eru). If it would be a simple fight, perhaps Eru wouldn't strenghthen Gandalf during the battle, but if very much would depend on this fight - fate of the world - Eru could mess Sauron's plans for sure. If I may quote from the bible: "a thousands will fall to your right, and ten thousands shall perish before you, for you have put your faith solely on God". Always liked that psalm.


----------

