# Punishment for failure



## Ithrynluin (Nov 22, 2003)

The Istari were sent to Middle Earth to counter Sauron. Both Saruman and Radagast failed, though in different ways and degrees. 

What kind of punishment (if any) do you think awaited them back in Aman?

Did Radagast deserve to be punished at all?


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## Inderjit S (Nov 22, 2003)

I don't think Radagast deserved to be punished. He was sent by Yavanna and therefore he naturally would have an inherent predilection for nature (Though what about Trees? Treebeard claims Gandalf is the only Wizard who really cares about Trees. Then again him and Radagast may never have met, and if they did Radagast may not have revealed he was a Wizard.)

But Radagast's "failure" was not in my opinion, something that he could or should be reprimanded for. He still remained "true" to the purpose. (i.e. he didn't turn evil like Saruman).

Plus I don't think the Valar were the punishing type, they sent the Istari to Middle-Earth incarnate, thus fallible and able to stray from their paths.


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## Celebthôl (Nov 22, 2003)

Saruman, i guess was either imprisoned as Melkor was ages ago, until he repented (It wouldnt take long as he was now in his pure form and wasnt bad overly long in the scheme of things)
Radagast i guess lived in Mirkwood (or where ever) and then faded and when his body died his spirit went back to Aman and that was it.

Thats what i recon anyway.


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## Gil-Galad (Nov 22, 2003)

I agree with Inderjit S.
I don't think he failed,or if he did it,he did not do anything evil or anything which had negative effect on ME.So punishment was too strong for him.

Saruman's case was different.He not only failed,but also he became a real threat for ME.That could not be accepted in Aman.As a matter of fact I believe that even if he had had the chance to repent for the things he did he would not have done it.


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## Ithrynluin (Nov 22, 2003)

> Though what about Trees? Treebeard claims Gandalf is the only Wizard who really cares about Trees.



This really is a strange remark, I agree. One would expect that Radagast would at least be acquainted with Treebeard (if not in close cooperation with him!), who was the main representative of the olvar (plants) in Middle-Earth, and among these trees were especially dear to Yavanna! But then we have this:



> _Unfinished Tales; The Istari_
> For Radagast, the fourth, became enamoured of the many beasts and birds that dwelt in Middle-earth, and forsook Elves and Men, and spent his days among the wild creatures. Thus he got his name (which is in the tongue of Numenor of old, and signifies, it is said, "tender of beasts").



Radagast may be a Maia of Yavanna's people, but it looks like he 'specialized' in the kelvar (animals). He occupied himself with 'the many beasts and birds', but plants or even only trees are never associated with him. Saruman also calls him 'Radagast the Bird-tamer'. This may be why he never had any dealings with Treebeard and trees in general.



> But Radagast's "failure" was not in my opinion, something that he could or should be reprimanded for. He still remained "true" to the purpose. (i.e. he didn't turn evil like Saruman).



He didn't really do anything to directly contribute to Sauron's demise by rallying Men and Elves to act in unison. But I also don't think he deserved any kind of punishment, as he didn't turn to evil and tended to the birds and beasts.



> Plus I don't think the Valar were the punishing type, they sent the Istari to Middle-Earth incarnate, thus fallible and able to stray from their paths.



Saruman committed quite a few atrocities - breeding Orcs with Men and turning Rohan into a general bloodbath. I doubt the Valar would say 'Well, you did some really nasty things, but it was really our fault for making you wear that wearisome human body - you're forgiven."
I think he would receive punishment, though not necessarily being cast into the Void (after all, his evil deeds were much less than Sauron's or Melkor's) Perhaps some community service in Aman?  For starters, in the chapter 'The Scouring of the Shire' we get a hint of what becomes of Saruman's spirit. His plea to return to Aman is rejected - though we cannot tell for how long and if this is the only punishment.



> _Originally posted by Celebthôl _
> *Radagast i guess lived in Mirkwood (or where ever) and then faded and when his body died his spirit went back to Aman and that was it.*



Why do you think Radagast faded? He was no Elf! He may have been summoned back to Aman after awhile. Perhaps he departed alongside Celeborn, or with Cirdan and the last ship.

It's also interesting to note where Radagast chose his abode - Rhosgobel: In the near vicinity of Dol Guldur. Do you think this was intentional? Perhaps to be close and heal all the hurts that spread from and were caused by it?


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## Celebthôl (Nov 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *
> Why do you think Radagast faded? He was no Elf! He may have been summoned back to Aman after awhile. Perhaps he departed alongside Celeborn, or with Cirdan and the last ship.
> *



Because i dont think he just went on living, and ive been told by someone (i forget who) that Manwë didnt allow him back or something. . . (from UT).


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## Gil-Galad (Nov 22, 2003)

Sometime ago I read a thread in which somebeody mentioned that Radagast could probably fall "asleep" somewhere after long years of wandering,like the Ents for example.
This opportunity seems interesting to me ,but not possible


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## Ithrynluin (Nov 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Celebthôl _
> *Because i dont think he just went on living, and ive been told by someone (i forget who) that Manwë didnt allow him back or something. . . (from UT). *



There is nothing of that sort in Unfinished Tales.



> _Originally posted by Gil-Galad _
> *Sometime ago I read a thread in which somebeody mentioned that Radagast could probably fall "asleep" somewhere after long years of wandering,like the Ents for example.
> This opportunity seems interesting to me ,but not possible  *



We have no plausible reason to believe that a Maia would fall asleep, especially if that Maia was sent to Middle Earth for a specific purpose, and expected to return after that purpose had been accomplished.


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## Celebthôl (Nov 22, 2003)

I dunno then, my thought on it all was that Manwë did allow him back whenever he wanted and then someone came along and said this was not so. 
But if you say its not true, then im going back to what i initially thought. 
He was allowed to return whenever he wished to.


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## Inderjit S (Nov 22, 2003)

> Saruman committed quite a few atrocities - breeding Orcs with Men and turning Rohan into a general bloodbath. I doubt the Valar would say 'Well, you did some really nasty things, but it was really our fault for making you wear that wearisome human body - you're forgiven."



My comment was more aimed at Radagast then Saruman. I don't know how the Valar would punish Saruman. It could be, of course that the Valar were really malevolent, machiavellian evil-doers rejoicing and endorsing Saruman’s sordid Elf-Man mating scheme.


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## Celebthôl (Nov 22, 2003)

Speeking of that, what Man in his right mind would partake in breeding with an Orc?! sends shivers down my spine to think of it! YUK!


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## Ithrynluin (Nov 22, 2003)

Oh, come on Thôl, you are so transparent! You've been dreaming of a nice orc-lass for quite some time now, so you might as well admit it! Come on, fess up!  

I would think none of the Men used for the purposes of breeding with Orcs were in their 'right mind' when they did that. Saruman is very powerful and has means of persuasion. For starters, take his voice...

Here's a little quote:



> _The History of Middle-Earth X: Morgoth's Ring; Myths Transformed_
> Finally, there is a cogent point, though horrible to relate. It became clear in time that undoubted Men could under the domination of Morgoth or his agents in a few generations be reduced almost to the Orc-level of mind and habits; and then they would or could be made to mate with Orcs, producing new breeds, often larger and more cunning. There is no doubt that long afterwards, in the Third Age, Saruman rediscovered this, or learned of it in lore, and in his lust for mastery committed this, his wickedest deed: the interbreeding of Orcs and Men, producing both Men-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile.


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## Celebthôl (Nov 22, 2003)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAH!!!! 


But seriously 

Maybe he used the Dunlendings in his vile schemes. . .


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## Gildor (Nov 24, 2003)

> *The Return of the King*
> To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing.



Saruman turned to evil in a big way, betraying the Valar and the people of Middle Earth that had been placed in his charge. He would have eagerly become another Sauron if he had succeeded in his schemes, so it would seem fitting (and somewhat alluded to in the text) that Saruman shared a similar fate as Sauron...being reduced to nothing more than a spirit of malice, empty and powerless.

Radagast did not fail even though he strayed from the appointed task. He still supported the cause, and were it not for him Gandalf would have remained Saruman's prisoner and the quest would have failed. I feel that Radagast could have freely returned to Aman, but I think that he may have been more content to stay in Middle Earth and keep watch over his animals, at least for a while.


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