# Did Sauron really know of the existence of the Balrog?



## Úlairi

It says in the Sil:



> "The Balrogs were destroyed, *save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth* ."



It then says in Appendix B in the Tale of Years in the Third Age timeline under the year 2480:



> "Sauron begins to people Moria with his creatures."



Now, amongst those creatures were Orcs and some of them were spies for Sauron, I mean, it is inevitable that Sauron situated some of his spies in Moria. Now, what if one of these spies reported to Sauron that there really *was* a Balrog in Moria. 

*Note: Remember this is all hypothetical but it could be true. It is not suggestive that it was true but it is definitely a possibility.* 

If so, then why didn't Sauron call the Balrog to his services? With the Balrog he could have done some serious damage!!! Any opinions?


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## Mormegil

The way I see it there are 3 possibilities.

1) Sauron's Orcs in Moria never saw the Balrog, because it stayed down in the depths of Moria. Remember that both Gandalf and Aragorn passed through Moria without seeing it. Thus Sauron never knew of the existance of the Balrog. (I make this one unlikely)

2) Saurons orcs see the Balrog, but unknowing what it is, (Balrogs have been gone for thousands of years). Sauron gets word that there is a terror in Moria, but doesn't know it's a Balrog. Sauron thinks it is best left alone, like Shelob. (A possibility)

3) Sauron knows that there is a Balrog in Moria from reports by his orcs. However, The Balrog and Sauron are spiritual equals, Both are Maia, one is not more powerful than the other.
Sauron lacks the power to command the Balrog to his will. Also he would not be willing to share power with the Balrog if they decided on a 'partnership'.
The Balrog is not willing to be Sauron's slave. It is waiting for the return of its true master, Melkor. It is prepared to sit underground until that day and is not interested in events in ME, unless people invade Moria.
So Sauron is left with no option. He knows the Balrog exists, but cannot make it do his bidding. So he decides to leave it alone.
(Most likely IMO)

Just my thoughts on the matter.


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## DGoeij

Good thoughts then. I favor version number tree. Personally, siince reading the Sil, I picture Balrogs as very powerfull servants of Malkor, bad to the bone and all. To me it seems likely the Balrog in Moria feels no need to fight on the side of Sauron, or anybody's side but his own. 

I think it's unlikely that Sauron would not wish to find out about the 'terror' roaming around in Moria, or even not being aware of it.


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## UngattTrunn475

Would've the spies of Sauron survive the Balrog? Since it was obsessed with destroying, it might have destroyed all the eye witnesses. (But I doubt it.)

Another possibility was that the Balrog didn't care to be with Sauron.


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## HLGStrider

So was the Balrog attacking the Fellowship independantly or did he come under orders... I can see the guy saying "Oooh trouble... fun! I'll go take part..." Or perhaps Gandalf, as a Maia as well, attracted him somehow.


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## Samwise

> _Originally posted by Mormegil _
> * Remember that both Gandalf and Aragorn passed through Moria without seeing it. *


The book doesn't say they saw it, but Gandalf knew that there was "older and fouler things that orcs in the deep place of the world" He must've known there was (or possibly) a Balrog in Moria.
Sauron and the Balrog were both servants of Melkor at one point. Sauron, knowing that the ring got to Rivendale, thought that they would try to take it to Minis Tirith. He most likely knew that there was a Balrog there from his spies and would've tried to send a message to the Balrog telling him of the the ring coming south. Just my thoughs.


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## Mormegil

> _Originally posted by Samwise _
> *
> He must've known there was (or possibly) a Balrog in Moria.
> *


I disagree. I think if Gandalf knew, or even thought it a possibility that a Balrog was in Moria, he would never have led the Ringbearer into Moria. He would have seen The Gap of Rohan as a much safer route, even taking into account Saruman.



> _Originally posted by Samwise _
> *
> He most likely knew that there was a Balrog there from his spies and would've tried to send a message to the Balrog telling him of the the ring coming south. Just my thoughs. *


I'm sorry, but I disagree again. There is no way that Sauron would have told the Balrog that the ring was coming its way. Sauron would be too scared that the Balrog would claim the ring and set itself up as the next dark lord.
When in fact the fellowship do meet the Balrog, it seems far more interested in Gandalf than in Frodo. IMO, the Balrog knows nothing about the ring and is just trying to get the intruders out of Moria.


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## Tulidian

I don't think Gandalf knew there was a Balrog in Moria. For the reasons Mormegil pointed out, and the fact that Gandalf didn't even know what it was. I'm sure he could have guessed, but it completly threw him off guard. It was actually Legalos, I believe, who first realized it was a Balrog.


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## Rangerdave

I would persoanly assume that Sauron was aware of the Flaming critter, but hoped that it would stay in place. At least until he recovered the one ring. Without the majority of his strength that is kept in the One Ring, Sauron would be hard preesed to say the least to control this demon of Morgoth. Also, Sauron desired control of all of Middle Earth and dominion over all its inhabitants. His fun would ended if a rogue Balrog kept eating all his slaves.

RD


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## Úlairi

These are all great opinions. 

_Originally posted by Mormegil_ 


> The Balrog and Sauron are spiritual equals, Both are Maia, one is not more powerful than the other.



Mormegil, the Balrog was not Sauron's equal. Sauron was the commander of Morgoth's armies i.e. the Balrogs and his lieutenant. In the marine core a lieutenant greatly outranks a captain which Gothmaog was. Sauron was undisputedly the greatest sorceror on ME save Melkor who taught him. I have had countless arguments about this. There are orders of Maiar as you should know, seeing as your username shows that you have read the Narn i Hin Hurin which is the tale of the children of Hurin in which the black sword of Turin is mentioned. Sauron was of the highest order. He was up there with Eonwe, Ilmare and Osse. The Balrogs were of a lesser degree of Maia. Here is evidence to support that Sauron was the greatest of Melkor's servants therefore obviously showing that a mere Balrog was not his equal. It says in the Silmarillion in the Valaquenta on page 35 of my copy in the last paragraph:





> "Among those of his servants that have names the *greatest* was that spirit whom the Eldar called *Sauron*, or Gorthaur the Cruel."



Sauron was the greatest of the servants of Melkor. People are correct in saying that he could not will the Balrog to come to him but he could have bribed it. Someone made a good point that the Balrog may have actually been acting on the orders of Sauron when taking on the Fellowship but Sauron would have wanted the Ring and it was probable that the Balrog would have claimed it for himself and would have ousted Sauron. As someone else said, the Balrog was only interested in Gandalf and not Frodo the Ring-bearer, so the Balrog was obviously not acting under the services of Sauron. Could it be possible that Sauron may have discovered the Balrog after the Fellowship passed through Moria and then summoned it??? Probably not, but it would have been interesting. One other point also, it says that other Maia were attracted to the power that the One Ring holds, yet the Balrog did not take an interest with Frodo. Maybe he felt the power and wanted it, but he knew a force was there that he must overcome i.e Gandalf before he could claim it because it knew that Gandalf would stop him?


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## DGoeij

I don't know if the Balrog was attracted by the Ring, but it surely must have felt the presence of Gandalf after the encounter at the door (of the room where Balin's tomb lay). And since a Balrog is a Maia of the 'bad' side, it would most certainly enjoy destroying a Maia of the 'good' side.
No doubt that if he succeeded, he would take on the rest of the Fellowship, stumble on the Ring and claim that for itself.


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## Legolam

Which begs the question, what would a Balrog with the One Ring be like?


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## DGoeij

Powerfull enough to be a new Sauron, not a happy thought for starters.


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## Minas

Would the Balrog stumble on the ring or would the ring make itself easy to be found? I wonder if it would class the Balrog as too much of an obstacle to getting back to its master/creator Sauron.


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## Mormegil

Ulairi,
If you notice, I said that the Balrog and Sauron were "*Spirtual Equals*". Meaning that they were equal in their creation. They were both Maia.

Of course Sauron was more powerful in the Third Age than the Balrog. I do not dispute that. All I am saying is that Sauron was not powerful enough to bend the Balrog to his will. I believe that the Balrog would not serve anyone except Melkor himself. There may have been a degree of jeolousy from the Balrog towards Sauron.

As I said before, I do not believe that Sauron could have 'bribed' the Balrog to do his bidding, as the Balrog would not have accepted being Sauron's slave.


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## HLGStrider

I wonder what that Balrog was doing all that time? Do Balrog's hibernate and just come out when bothered? This is a serious question. 

To make it sound funny... 

Perhaps he was making those cave painting on Morias walls... or studying up on his Elfish... I can see him with his own little well furnished room in the depths of Moria, wearing his dressing gown and relaxing with a good book on Evil Sorcery.


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## Úlairi

> _Originally posted by Mormegil _
> *Ulairi,
> If you notice, I said that the Balrog and Sauron were "Spirtual Equals". Meaning that they were equal in their creation. They were both Maia.
> 
> Of course Sauron was more powerful in the Third Age than the Balrog. I do not dispute that. All I am saying is that Sauron was not powerful enough to bend the Balrog to his will. I believe that the Balrog would not serve anyone except Melkor himself. There may have been a degree of jeolousy from the Balrog towards Sauron.
> 
> As I said before, I do not believe that Sauron could have 'bribed' the Balrog to do his bidding, as the Balrog would not have accepted being Sauron's slave. *



My apologies Mormegil, I guess I misinterpreted the "Spiritual equals" comment. As for the Balrog being jealous, that is a great comment and gives a perfect reason as to ignoring the summons of Sauron if he even summoned it at all.


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## Úlairi

I thought of this just now. If Sauron had known of the existence of the Balrog, then he could have gone himself and have talked to the Balrog. Does anyone think that there was any way that Sauron could have drawn the Balrog to his service like offering him a dwarven ring or if he killed such and such then he would get such and such i.e if he killed Elrond and brought him Vilya than he could be his High Captain or something along the lines of...?


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## Bucky

A few points missed here:

1. Sauron would've killed Elrond & over run Rivendell if he had the power, Balrog or no Balrog.

2. The Three Rings endure no evil, so it's a moot point.

3. The Orcs wouldn't know a Balrog? Orcs have the same life as Elves, so there must have been a few who knew what a Balrog was. Not that any Sauron 'peopled' Moria with would certainly know.

4. The fact that Sauron sent Orcs to Moria to 'cover' it indicates he didn't know what was there.

5. How easy was passage across the Anduin from 1981 (when the Dwarves fled) to 2941 Third Age (when Sauron left Dol Guldur)? 

6. When Sauron went to Numinor as a hostage at the end of the 2nd Age, Who did he get the Numenoreans to worship? Himself? 
No, MELKOR. 
Who did the Balrog work for in the First Age?
MELKOR.

7. As 'Lieutenant' of Angband (btw, in the Marines, a Captain is higher), & the one whom Morgoth had 'left in charge of the war' when he went to check out the rising of Men, Sauron had already been in a position of authority over ALL the Balrogs.

My conclusion: Sauron didn't know until after the Fellowship, if even then, & The Balrog was VERY scared by the Host of the West & wasn't going anywhere. After all, it did hide for 5400 years.....
And, yes, SOMETHING besides Pippin's rock in the well drew Durin's Bane into the fray with the Fellowship - either the power of the Ring (maybe that's why DB killed 2 Dwarf Kings who might have had a Ring of Power), or Gandalf. 
Most likely, IMHO, it was all 3, as Gandalf had passed through unconfronted before. Yet, if Durin's Bane had perceived Gandalf's spell, it would certainly be able to sense the power of the One Ring.....


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## Úlairi

Ummmm, Bucky, the Rivendell was an example say it with me *ex-am-ple* very good!!! I knew that if Sauron had the power he would have crushed Rivendell with or without the Balrog well duh!!! I can just see Sauron saying to The Lord of the Nazgul:

"So when do we get to take on Rivendell?" says the Witch-king

"You don't, I'm leaving that to the Balrog!" says Sauron.

"But he won't listen to you!" says the Witch-king.

"Not if I give him a Ring he won't!" says Sauron.

Oh and by the way Mr. Super-intelligent Bucky, I said *dwarven-ring* not *elven-ring*! Sauron's hand touched the dwarven rings therefore making them susceptible to evil. As for the Elven-rings being touched by a Balrog that wouldn't do anything to it. It would just take it to Sauron but if it put it on then the Balrog would have gotten the scare of his life! Sauron gave the dwarven-rings to the dwarves so that they would come under his service. Of all people Bucky, I thought you'd know that, but, oh well!

As for the Orcs not knowing what a Balrog was, I never said that! I'm not that stupid!!! In fact if you'd like to know I am an A student and have topped English and Maths in my year for two years running!!! If Sauron sent Orcs to Moria knowing that a Balrog was there then he would have been pretty idiotic. If you read the start of this thread properly then you would understand that it was all hypothetical, you take things so seriously Bucky!

As for Sauron worshipping Melkor in Numenor that is correct, and Sauron believed what he was doing was preparing ME for the return of Melkor and what better way to do that than have a Balrog in your service!

Sauron was in control of the Balrogs at one point so then why would the Balrog have a problem with serving him again?


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## JeffF.

*Sauron probably knew...*

...the Balrog was in Moria. In the tale of Durin's Folk in ROTK appendices the Balrog destroyed the Kindom of Khazud-dum and forced Durin's Folk to flee. In the War of Dwarves and Orcs Dain tell's Thorin that he has seen the terror within Moria and knows that Durin's Bane still lurks within. The Orcs that dwelt within Moria surely knew the Balrog was there. Dwarves from all seven houses participated in this war. At times dwarves fought with Sauron (Battle of the Last Alliance) which means that Sauron had an on-going relationship with at least some of the four houses of Dwarves of the East. While the West may have been confused as to what Durin's Bane is (evidently not confirmed by the West's 'intelligence' until the Fellowship actually encounters it) Sauron would have known. The West had a hard time keeping secrets from Sauron, it is unlikely that Orcs and Dwarves could have kept the secret from him. The situation with Shelob is similar. Sauron definitely knew she lurked near Cirith Ungol.

Sauron could probably have used the Balrog. The Silmarillion states that Sauron was "less evil than Melkor only in that he served another." This is an indication that his strength of evil was probably on the same level as Morgoth/Melkor and enough to control the Balrog. Also in the tale of Durin's Folk Gandalf states that Sauron might have used the dragon (Smaug) to great effect in the North. If Sauron could have influenced the very independent dragon he probably could have done the same with the Balrog.

The Balrog probably was drawn to the One Ring. In Unfinished Tales inthe story of the disaster in Gladden Fields Tolkien wrote that teh Orcs were drawn to the ring. If lesser evil being like orcs were drawn to it it is likely that a greater evil like a Balrog would be as well.

Finally it is unlikely that there was a better use of the Balrog than to be where it was. Moria could not be re-established as the most powerful of the Dwarf kingdoms while the Balrog was within. From Moria the Balrog and his orcs and trolls could threaten either Lorien or Rivendell (though it is interesting to note that Galadriel told Frodo in FOTR that no power could contest hers in Lorien unless the Dark Lord himself came). There was nothing the Balrog cold accomplish from going to Mordor that the High Nazgul could not have accomplished and the latter was totally enslaved to Sauron's will while the Balrog might be liable to some show of initiative not to Sauron's liking.


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## Bucky

You know, Ulari, I was reading the beginning of your post, & I'm thinking 'This guy's probably in 9th grade'.....

Then I get to the part about you being an A student (so was I, btw) & I started to laugh.....

Take a chill pill, pal.


You got me on the Rivendell/Dwarf Ring, but, what is the point of bringing Sauron Vilya, as the Three endure no evil. 

I really don't have time now, but on the Dwarves & Sauron having contact: 
That was 4500 years earlier when he gave them the Rings.
There's no evidence ANY Dwarves fought on Sauron's side in The War of the Ring.
And Dwarves are well known to be tightlipped, so I doubt much was said to Dwarves of other Houses outside those who lived in Moria.
I also doubt that much if any communication of any kind took place between Durin's folk & any Dwarvish Houses further to the East or South of thwe areas of ME shown on Tolkien's map as the areas past Harad & Rhun were 'enemy' territory & these would obviously be the only Houses Sauron would be able to have contact with.

BTW, There are only 3 'Houses' mentioned exactly in Tolkien's writings:
Khazad-Dum
Belegost
Nagrod

The Petty Dwarves, of which Mim was the last, are the only other ones mentioned, so there are either 3 or 4 more 'Houses' or 'Species' (as in different Fathers) of Dwarves elsewhere in ME.


And, I don't understand why anyone would think Durin's Bane & Sauron could have so much trouble getting along.
They had obviously co-existed & served on the same side before.
Show me ONE example in the History of ME where the evil guys (other than Orcs, never higher-ups) turned on each other.
It was always the good guys turning traitor.

I bet if DB & Sauron could've met, it would've been like escaped Nazis reuniting in Brazil:
"Hey, remember that time you beat Fingon into the ground with your maces?"
"Yeah, that was Da Bomb!"
'Sure beat the Utumno out of when The Host of the West showed up."
"Really. I got outta there REAL quick. Hey, Sauron, how'd you get away?"
"I BS'ed my way out of it with that idiot Eonwe. Would you believe he let me walk away?"
"Ah, er, by the way, what happened to Lord Melkor?"
"They chopped off his legs & threw him out into the Void."
"Man, I hate the Void."
"Yeah, me too. But Lord Melkor told me to mind the store for him until he returns. Hey, wanna help? It'll be just like old times."
"Sounds good to me. Let's drink to Lord Melkor."
"To Lord Melkor..."


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## Úlairi

My apologies Bucky, I get heated sometimes, and that was the downfall of Harad and I don't want that to happen to me. My sincerest apologies once more and you weren't far off on the ninth grade thing, I am in the tenth grade but am doing Year 11 work. I like to write stories of my own, in fact I am writing a sequel to the Lord of the Rings currently, but I know that it will never be published simply because I don't have the copywright so it will stay on my computer. Yes, I do need to take a chill pill, I will admit. But you and I seem to conter each others points and arguments and I am at the disadvantage simply because I *know* that I am younger than you Bucky and I have only ever read LoTR three times and the rest only twice, it takes a while despite the fact that it takes me less than two weeks to actually get through LoTR. As for no evidence on the dwarves fighting for Sauron it says in The Silmarillion that all creatures, even birds were separated on the day of The Last Alliance, save the Elves. So obviously Sauron did have dwarves fighting for him. JeffF made some good points as to why the Balrog could come under his service. Sauron did command the Balrogs when Melkor/Morgoth went to watch the arising of man because Melkor left Sauron in charge. As for Sauron being the Lieutenant and Gothmog the High Captain, a Captain holds a higher place in the Marine Core, just as you said, but Sauron was Melkor's most powerful and chief servant. He even left Sauron in control of the Balrogs so why was he the lieutenant and why was Gothmog the High Captain? Shouldn't it be the other way around?


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## Bucky

>>>>As for no evidence on the dwarves fighting for Sauron it says in The Silmarillion that all creatures, even birds were separated on the day of The Last Alliance, save the Elves. So obviously Sauron did have dwarves fighting for him

I know.
But, I said the War of the Ring.....

My impression of Lieutenant & High Captain are this, granted, it's total speculation:

Sauron was the 2nd in command, Gothmog would've take orders from him (& did when Morgoth was gone).

Gothmog was the leader of Morgoth's Army &, as Lord of the Balrogs, had authority over them.

The only evidence to back this is the speculation based on the fact that Gothmog is constantly mentioned in various battles & Sauron only once, as leading the assault on the House of Beor in Dorthonian & Tol Sirion (where he set up as a 'vassal' for Morgoth).


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## Úlairi

Bucky, here is something from the Sil:



> "Among those of his servants that have names the *greatest* was that spirit that the Eldar called *Sauron*, or Gorthaur the Cruel."



This is on the last page of the Valaquenta, if you want to look it up.

It is undisputed that Sauron was of the highest order of Maia along with Eonwe, Ilmare and Osse, yet he was not as powerful as Eonwe or Ilmare, I am not sure about Osse. Sauron was the greatest of the servants of Melkor, and the most powerful. How is it possible that a Maia or servant if you will of a lesser degree be of a higher status than the greatest and most powerful of servants? I do not understand this concept! It is like saying that despite Eonwe was the greatest of Manwe's Maiar, Olorin was his highest and most venerated which is definitely not true. Remember, this is an example!


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## Bucky

I don't get the point.
I agree with you about Sauron.

I think that Tolkien (JRR of Chistopher?) just chose some confusing termonology with 'Lieutenant' & 'High Captain', that's all.

And, I don't see why Sauron HAD to be leading each attack, battle or campaign, if that is your point.
After all, Morgoth was more powerful than either Sauron or Gothmog & he wasn't out there in battle.


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## Úlairi

Thanks Bucky, you answered my point.

My point was as to Christopher's mixed up terminology between "High Captain and Lieutenant". His father was promoted to the rank lieutenant. Perhaps the "Lieutenant" was in dedication to his father?


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## Rangerdave

*Ranks.*

I think that we have a wonderful thread going here, impressive.
But I can't help but notice the division over ranks. To use the original meanings, as Tolkien most probably did, Captain was the term for a leader of men (orcs, elves, muppets et al. Lieutenant on the other hand is something all together different. The orginal usage of lieutenat dates back to feudal france. A knight would ride to battle in the name of his lord. This lord was the holder of property, hence his title of Tenent. there for the knight in battle stood in lieu of his tenant.

So Sauron as captain would command and organize, but would have no real reason to be on the battlefield. this he left to his lieutenants.

Also, the Balrog was a lieutenant of Morgoth, not Sauron. So the balrog would be perfectly justified in telling Sauron to take a flying leap.

Keep up the good work
RD


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## Mormegil

Perhaps we could explain the proposed animosity between Sauron and The Balrog by looking at modern military styles.
Sauron and The Balrog were both members of Morgoth's 'armed forces'. They fought on the same side but in different divisions. Sauron was directly answerable to Morgoth. As, IMO was Gothmog. The Balrog was answerable to Gothmog.
Lets think about the chain of command.
In the modern military, we have divisions of Army, Navy and Air Force. Mavbe Morgoths army was divided up in a similar way. With Gothmog in complete control of the Balrogs as one division, and Sauron in complete control of another division. One not answerable to the other, but both directly answerable to Morgoth.

In this situation, my example would be... (Sorry, British officer ranks. I don't know American ones.)

Morgoth- Supreme commander of Allied Forces
Sauron- Field Marshal (Army)
Gothmog- Admiral of the Fleet (Navy)
The Balrog- Vice-Admiral (Navy)

So, in modern terms, the relationship between Sauron and The Balrog is much like the leader of the Army trying to get a high ranking officer of the Navy to do his bidding. It ain't gonna happen unless the Navy guy gets strict orders from above himself. In this case, only Gothmog or Morgoth could tell The Balrog to help Sauron. 

Of course this example relates to modern times and might not have been a factor in Morgoths armies. Just throwing an idea up.


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## Úlairi

Disregard the last post, this is what I wanted the post to look like:

I completely agree with you Mormegil, I could not have explained it better myself. 



> _Originally posted by Rangerdave_
> 
> Also, the Balrog was a lieutenant of Morgoth, not Sauron. So the balrog would be perfectly justified in telling Sauron to take a flying leap.



As for Rangerdave, you got Gothmog and Sauron mixed up. Sauron was the lieutenant of Morgoth and his chief servant where as Gothmog was his high captain and this is what the thread has become all about. 

Another point Mormegil, Morgoth left Sauron in control of *all* of his armies, including Gothmog. 



> "Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit that the Eldar called *Sauron*, or Gorthaur the Cruel."



I have posted this before but I have so again. Sauron was undisputedly the greatest and most powerful servant of Morgoth. The divisional idea of Mormegil sounds highly likely and it is an extremely good theory. I must agree with you Mormegil, the divisions of the army was probable, but what was the need, Sauron was powerful, why simply not call him his general which is significantly higher than a High Captain?


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## Bucky

If you want to use modern war as a comparison:

Sauron would be like George Marshall in WWII.
Marshall handled the logistics from Washinton & was the highest ranking officer in the Army.

Gothmog was like Eisenhower in that he directed the actual battles.
Although Gothmog fought where Ike sat on his butt & ran the battle/war from behind lines, so maybe Patton would be a better example.

Still, I don't see why there would be ANY animosity between the two.
There's nothing to base that on.

Only possibility is that Durin's Bane booked on Morgoth & hid while at least Sauron hung in there.

And, as for equality, no way.
Sauron had set up & was going through his 2nd reign as Dark Lord, had brought down Eregion & Numenor, seduced some mighty men & turned them into 9 powerful slaves, & all the Balrog did all that time was hide in Moria & cry for his daddy.....


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## Úlairi

A faultless post!


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## JeffF.

*To Bucky on Dwarves*

The Silmarillion and LOTR states that there were seven houses of dwarves. The Peoples of Middle Earth name all seven houses stating that four were in the east. Belegost and Nogrod are never specifically named as homes of two of the houses but it is implied in Peoples of Middle Earth (which states that two of the Houses, Firebeards and Broadbeams) lived in the Ered Luin. The Petty Dwarves were exiles and not a house.


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## Rangerdave

*I sit corrected*

to Ulairi:The Lord of the Nazgul 

You are absolutely right. I did confuse the two. Sorry.
But regardless, would not any Balrogs still around by the 3rd age be operating independantly? I can't see the Balrog of Moria (or any others there may or may not be) having any loyality or duty to Sauron.

I would assume, that without the power of the ring restored to him, Sauron would not have the native power to control such a powerful demon/maiar. 

In short, unless Sauron came to control all of Middle-Earth, A Balrog would tell Sauron to stick it where no shadows lie

RD

ps. Thank you again for correcting my mistake, I apperciate it.Keep up the good works


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## Bucky

Dave:

Sauron in the 3rd age was doing things like 'seeing' by a cloud he sent out. Check Frodo on Amon Hen.

Could ANY Balrog do that?

And, as this Balrog had already been under Sauron's authority (granted, authority given Sauron by Morgoth), why wouldn't he want to help out?

He wasn't going to go to the Elves & see if they needed help because that upstart Sauron was setting up shop as Dark Lord II was he?
And, he certainly wasn't going to sell his services to the highest bidder.

I just don't see it as a possabilty that Sauron & Durin's Bane were not on friendly terms, unless, as I stated, Sauron was upset that DB high-tailed it out of the battle with the Host of the West.

I think:
1. Sauron did not know it was a Balrog in Moria (read earlier posts).
2. Durin's Bane had already shown a penchant for just wanting to avoid destruction.


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## Úlairi

I completely agree to you Bucky. I have been hesitant to ask this question but I will seeing as it is an extremely good *theory*. Let's assume that the Balrog *was* under the service of Sauron before the Fellowship passed through Moria (Khazad-dum). Bucky has given some interesting points as to why it may have been (see post above) under the service of Sauron. Was he acting on Sauron's orders. Perhaps Sauron did not tell the Balrog that the Ring was in existence, and we also know that Sauron and the Ring were one so perhaps he told it to keep quiet whilst in the presence of the Balrog so that the Balrog did not 'feel' it. Perhaps Sauron had hoped that the Ring-bearer would perish with the Ring in his possession, and if the Balrog killed Gandalf (which it did), then he could senf the Ulairi or even go himself to recover it (it wouldn't be that hard for the Ulairi or Sauron to find, especially Sauron). If the Balrog was still existent than he would kill it (which wouldn't be *that* hard for him and then recover the Ring and if it was Gandalf who was still alive then he would do the same. It would be even better if neither of them were there for him to confront which is also a possibility. I can't believe that I can think like Sauron may have, but I have. It would have been much easier to obtain the Ring if the Balrog was under his service. Anyone agree?


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## Úlairi

Sorry about the bold mistakes in the previous post, just disregard the in them!


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## Dhôn-Buri-Dhôn

Ulairi:

You can, if you like, use the Edit button on that post to fix the bold text problems.


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## Bucky

Ulairi:

I saw another post:
IMO = 'In My Opinion'
Those who wish to appear less 'pushy' put IMHO, 
H = 'Humble' 

As far as your theory, it takes into consideration that Sauron KNEW there was a Balrog in Moria.
Big if there.
But, a good theory if he did know.

Now, maybe Sauron did know of this rather 'shy' Balrog & just figured:

'This dude was always a slacker back in Angband, he took off when Melkor needed him, he's hiding in Moria for 5400 years before some Dwarf lets him out of his self imposed prison, what would I want HIM in my service for? He may run out on me too at a crucial moment. Besides, I have Withchy-Poo & the 8 other Nazgul and they ALWAYS follow my orders. But, it doesn't hurt having a Balrog loose in Moria if any enemies try to pass through, or if the Dwarves try to repopulate Moria.'


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## Grond

I can't imagine that Sauron would not have known of the existence of the Balrog. For a number of years, Sauron (in his Necromancer guise) was just a hundred miles or so away from Moria while he resided in Dol Guldur. Surely, Sauron would have recognised Durin's Bane for what it was.

I also can't imagine that a Balrog would be subservient to Sauron. Sauron was Melkor's Chief Lt. but did not reside at Angband. The head of Melkor's forces at Angband was none other than Gothmog, Melkor's Capt. of Balrogs and lieutenant and marshal of his host. Sauron never lead Melkor's forces into battle, it was always his Balrogs. I would even surmise that there may have been great rivalry and dissent between the Balrogs and Sauron since Sauron was said to be next in power to Melkor. Maybe close enough in power to warrant him not residing in Angband? This is an unknown. But I would imagine that the Balrogs and Sauron weren't the best of buddies. At least, that's my take on it. But I've been wrong on lots of stuff lately.


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## Eonwe

Somewhere (UT?) its stated that Gandalf thought that Sauron's next move in Dol Guldur (before the White Council pushed him out) was to attack Lothlorien and Rivendell right? Perhaps he thought he might use the Balrog, if he knew it was there, to help overcome (easily?) these two places. Even if the Balrog hadn't been overthrown by Gandalf, he still could have used it after regaining the Ring to help overrun Eriador...

Sauron didn't really need the Balrog, nor even Smaug (if Smaug happened to be still around) at the time of the War with Gondor, he was so strong with the scaredy pants wringwraiths.

My question is, if RWs are scared of water, why not build a huge moat around Minas Tirith? How did they get over Anduin? LOL


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## Camille

> How did they get over Anduin?



Hello Eonwe They made ships (smaller ones)and I think that in the UT Gandalf was afraid that Sauron might use Smaug for his evil deeds, not the Balrog and that was why he helped Thorin: to get rid of the Dragon.
I think there is no evidence to support if Sauron knew about the Balrog or not, but I think (and this is just my opinion acording with the characteristics of the one ring) that even if he knew he would be not enterily happy to use him (the balrog) because as we know the one ring was an object that everyone wanted, the most powerfull the being the more lust for the ring, so if we have a Balrog of Morgoth I think that Sauron had to beware of him.


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## Bucky

>>>I can't imagine that Sauron would not have known of the existence of the Balrog. For a number of years, Sauron (in his Necromancer guise) was just a hundred miles or so away from Moria while he resided in Dol Guldur.

There was Lorien right in between the two.
That would certainly decrease messangers passing between the two places.


>>>Sauron was Melkor's Chief Lt. but did not reside at Angband. 

Where does it say that? I don't recall ever reading that.
Sauron was left in charge of the war when Morgoth departed to check out the newly arisen Men.
Since Angband was in seige by the Eldar at this time & for 400 years, just where would Sauron be playing Lieutenant besides Angband?

>>>Sauron never lead Melkor's forces into battle, it was always his Balrogs.

The Silmarillion, pages 155-156:
'Foe nigh 2 years after the Dagor Bragollach, the Noldor still defended the western sources of Sirion....But at length, after the fall of Fingolfin, Sauron, greatest & most terrible of the servants of Morgoth,... came against Orodreth, the warden of the tower upon Tol Sirion......He took Minas Tirith by ASSAULT.


>>>I would even surmise that there may have been great rivalry and dissent between the Balrogs and Sauron since Sauron was said to be next in power to Melkor

Why?
As previously stated, where is there ONE example of evil beings other than Orcs fueding with each other?
And, this Balrog had already taken orders from Sauron when Morgoth left Angband.


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## Úlairi

Bucky beat me to it, all of it. As for attacking Lothlorien, it says in UT that Sauron could only overcome Lorien if he went himself. On this point I disagree with Tolkien. IMO, if Sauron had either Smaug or the Balrog or possibly even both in his service then then IMO, Sauron would not have had to have gone and overcome Lothlorien himself.


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## DGoeij

I don't know, one doesn't wish to mess around with the Lady Galadriel. Very wise mighty elven queen, carrying one of the Three and all. Both Balrogs and dragons can be defeated by warriors. Why not by the strength of an Elven Lady?


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## Lord Melkor

Well, I am sure Balrog couldn`t defeat Galadriel in Lothorien, her domain, outside it I am not sure, I think that Galadriel`s spiritual power wasn`t lower than her brother`s Felagund`s, and King Of Narhothrond was almost a match for Sauron, greatest sorcecer in Middle Earth.


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## Úlairi

I agree with you Lord Melkor, however, I do not think a lady could defeat a Balrog. The female elves weren't trained in arms nor battle in any way, where as the Balrog was. Felagund and Glorfindel however were and were both elven-*men*. We all know that the male is physically the stronger sex, being for both humans and elves. As for Gandalf, he was a Maia so he was a match for the Balrog. And this is to the feminists out there who may think what I have said is demeaning, but it is true and you know it, so don't bring up the fact that Eowyn killed the Lord of the Nazgul and not a man because the prophecy was that no *man*, be it both human or elf could defeat him. Eowyn didn't technically defeat the Morgul-lord anyway. Pippin poked him in the back and he fell and then she beheaded him so it was Pippin who was doing all the work!


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## DGoeij

Merry poked him, in the back of the knee actually. And there weren't a lot of men around facing the Lord of the Nazgul at the time, they happended to have fled.  
I don't think physical strength would get you far when facing a Balrog. 
And a lot of woman are stronger than a lot of men. Generally speaking you may be right, but it's not that simple.


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## Camille

agree with you Ulairi Mmmm Galadriel facing a Balrog?? I do not think so ( not because she is a woman, I am one of them ) but I remember that in some part of the tolkiens writings it is state that Galadriel have become, in ME as Manwe in Valinor, a queen or king but only observing, that Galadriel was wise and powerfull but her power was for healing not for punishment, I can not remember were I read that, someone remember?
But anyway maybe the evil being do not know that and that was why they were afraid of Lady Galadriel.


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## Bucky

>>>The female elves weren't trained in arms nor battle in any way,

Unless they're in PJ's movie......

That was for you Thorin  

But, I still like the movie despite the changes (except Elgrouch from Rivendell)......

I see that the 'overcoming' of Lorien isn't in the strength of Galadriel as a warrior or 'general', but, it's really a very similar situation as the Girdle of Melian around Doriath.
Evil beings just couldn't even get in there, unless one of greater power came there.

I also remember that Galadriel certainly spent a fair share of time with Melian.


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## Úlairi

Bucky, are you suggesting that Galadriel had a 'girdle' surrounding Lorien like Melian had around Doriath? As for Galadriel being wise and powerful I agree, but I still do believe that the Balrog could get itself into Lorien. Galdriel had the power of healing, but she didn't have the power of arms. The power of healing would not destroy the Balrog, the Balrog would destroy Galadriel's power of healing simply because it is based on fire, and leaves burn so Lorien would be destroyed by the Balrog and Galadriel would fall. This argument is made about another person in the Council of Elrond, Tom Bombadil. They council concluded that Bombadil could not fight off Sauron because he had the power of healing, where as Sauron had the power of ultimate destruction which Bombadil could not defy. Galadriel would fall to the might of the Balrog, with or without her 'power'.


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## JeffF.

*Evidently it is more than that*

Galadriel's conversation with Frodo in Lothlorien she stated that no power could contest her within Lorien unless the Dark Lord himself should come. Though the rings were meant for constructive purposes evidently their power had some unspecified 'military' worth.


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## Úlairi

Interesting point JeffF, but Elrond clearly states that the Great Rings didn't have any 'military' power within them, like the other rings, they were used for unknown purposes.


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## DGoeij

Quote from the Silmarrion, chapter Of The Rings Of Power:
(typing errors on my account)
(..)whereas the Ring of Adamant was in the Land of Lorien where dwelt the Lady Galadriel. A queeen she was of the woodland Elves, the wife of Celeborn of Doriath, yet she herself was of the Noldor and remembered the Day before days in Valinor, and she was the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth.
(end quote)

And inside the Land of Lorien, only the Dark Lord himself could stand a chance of bringing her down. No doubt a Balrog would have been a major problem, but capable of defeating Galadriel in her own domain?


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## Úlairi

The Balrog was a Maia, Galadriel was a powerful Elf with a powerful Ring. Not even in her domain could Galadriel have defeated a Maia. The Balrog was Sauron's equal, save the fact that Sauron was a much more powerful Maia than the Balrog, but they were of the same race. Even in her own domain, Galadriel could not defy the power of a Maia. It says only if Sauron descended upon Lorien, well, what about his spiritual (yet less stronger) equal. The Balrog would not find it too much of a sortie to destroy Galadriel and the White Ring.


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## JeffF.

*Guess it comes down to credibility*

Since the Balrog didn't actually attack Lorien in the book we'll never know. So if you believe Elrond, who basically said the rings have no power of military worth, than she could not have defended against the Balrog but if you believe Galadriel who stated that only the Dark Lord could overcome her, than she can. Remember, Glorfindel and Ecthelion, both Noldorin Elves killed balrogs during the Fall of Gondolin. Time and again Tolkein mentions Galadriel as one of the most powerful of the Noldor (who being high elves who had seen the light of the trees had power both in the seen and unseen world). Though for all her vaunted power she does remarkably little with it in either the tales of the Silmarillion or LOTR.


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## Lord Melkor

But battle between Galadriel and Balrog, would be SPIRITUAL, her skills in arms isn`t that much important, see Gandalf versus Balrog, or Finrod versus Sauron:



"He chanted a song of wizardry,
Of piercing, opening, of treachery,
Revealing, uncovering, betraying.
Then sudden Felagund there swaying,
Sang in a song of staying,
Resisting, battling against power,
Of secrets kept, strength like a tower,
And trust unbroken, freedom, escape;
Of changing and shifting shape,
Of snares eluded, broken traps,
The prison opening, the chain that snaps.
Backwards and forwards swayed their song.
Reeling foundering, as ever more strong
The chanting swelled, Felagund fought,
And all the magic and might he brought
Of Elvenesse into his words.
Softly in the gloom they heard the birds
Singing afar in Nargothrond,
The sighting of the Sea beyond,
Beyond the western world, on sand,
On sand of pearls on Elvenland.
Then in the doom gathered; darkness growing
In Valinor, the red blood flowing
Beside the Sea, where the Noldor slew
The Foamriders, and stealing drew
Their white ships with their white sails
From lamplit havens. The wind wails,
The wolf howls. The ravens flee.
The ice mutters in the mouths of the Sea.
The captives sad in Angband mourn.
Thunder rumbles, the fires burn-
And Finrod fell before the throne."


If Finrod was almost a match for Sauron, than Galadriel could have defeated Balrog.


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## Úlairi

Good point Lord Melkor, but I win, again! I found this quote in UT today:



> " Galadriel, the greatest of the Eldar surving in Middle-earth, was potent mainly in wisdom and goodness, as a director or counsellor in the struggle, unconquerable in _resistance_ (especially in mind and spirit) *but incapable of punitive* _action_. In her total action."



There it is. Galadriel was unconquerable in resistance, but if the Balrog had made it into Mirkwood and had come up against Galadriel she could not defeat it simply because she was 'incapable of punitive action'.


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## Úlairi

In conclusion to the Galadriel versus the Balrog, the Balrog would win, but I am still unsure if the Balrog would overcome Galadriel in Lorien.


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## DGoeij

You're quote says, "Unconquerable in resistance". I guess that attacking Lothlorien was out of the question for the Balrog.
If they met in open ground, I wouldn't know. I'd sleep better knowing Galadriel would win, but I'm not certain.


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## JeffF.

*Tolkien thought Galadriel was too powerful for any but Sauron*

I was mistaken on the source for my previous comment that Galadriel said that only Sauron could overcome her it was Tokien himself who wrote it in his LOTR appendices. On page 468 of the Ballantine paperback 1977 edition he writes, "Three times Lorien had been assailed from Dol Guldor, but besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come there himself."

Later in the same paragraph Tolkien writes, "Celeborn came forth and led the hosts of Lorien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldor, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed."

Besides the elven warriors the only other 'power' that dwelt there was Galadriel and her ring, certainly no other elven power that could resist the Dark Lord (it certainly is not the so-called 'Celeborn the Wise'--his statement to the fellowship on the arrival in Lorien about the dwarves waking the Balrog again certainly makes me wonder how he got that 'wise' reputation). 

This to me implies that the great elven rings had some power to be used against evil Elrond had the Ring of Water and caused a flood to wash away the Nazgul pursuing Frodo to the Ford of Rivendell. No other elf is able to cause floods thus Elrond must get this power from his ring. In Gandalf's battle with the Balrog he anounces to his opponent that he (Gandalf) is a "servant of the secret fire" and that the Balrog's flame of Udun will not avail him. During the clash between wizard and balrog/Glamdring and flame sword there is a "stab of white fire" that forces the Balrog back and shatter's its sword. Gandalf's well known reputation with fireworks may stem from the power given him by the Ring of Flame. In the appendix I quoted Galadriel somehow throws down Dol Guldor's walls and opens its pits. Though not stating directly how she did this if the Ring of Air gave Galadriel power over air comparable to Elrond's power over water it certainly could have caused a weather event powerful enough to knock down walls and open pits.

While the elven rings may have been intended for peaceful, constructive uses those same powers could probably also be used in thwart evil. After all in our own world there are very few tools or powers that don't have both peaceful and military capabilities.

A last word on Galadriel, in Unfinished Tales she is regarding Dwarf warriors "with the eye of a commander" (page 247 Ballantine paperback edition). There is more to her than just great beauty but as I said before of al the 'great' Noldor she seems to have accomplished the least. It seems the most valuable service she did was to provide aid to the Fellowship which directly assists the destruction of the Ring (the Phial of Galadriel, elven cloaks, elven waybread without which Frodo would have failed).


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## Úlairi

*Re: Tolkien thought Galadriel was too powerful for any but Sauron*



> _Originally posted by JeffF. _
> *I was mistaken on the source for my previous comment that Galadriel said that only Sauron could overcome her it was Tokien himself who wrote it in his LOTR appendices. On page 468 of the Ballantine paperback 1977 edition he writes, "Three times Lorien had been assailed from Dol Guldor, but besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come there himself."
> 
> Later in the same paragraph Tolkien writes, "Celeborn came forth and led the hosts of Lorien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldor, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed."
> 
> Besides the elven warriors the only other 'power' that dwelt there was Galadriel and her ring, certainly no other elven power that could resist the Dark Lord (it certainly is not the so-called 'Celeborn the Wise'--his statement to the fellowship on the arrival in Lorien about the dwarves waking the Balrog again certainly makes me wonder how he got that 'wise' reputation).
> 
> This to me implies that the great elven rings had some power to be used against evil Elrond had the Ring of Water and caused a flood to wash away the Nazgul pursuing Frodo to the Ford of Rivendell. No other elf is able to cause floods thus Elrond must get this power from his ring. In Gandalf's battle with the Balrog he anounces to his opponent that he (Gandalf) is a "servant of the secret fire" and that the Balrog's flame of Udun will not avail him. During the clash between wizard and balrog/Glamdring and flame sword there is a "stab of white fire" that forces the Balrog back and shatter's its sword. Gandalf's well known reputation with fireworks may stem from the power given him by the Ring of Flame. In the appendix I quoted Galadriel somehow throws down Dol Guldor's walls and opens its pits. Though not stating directly how she did this if the Ring of Air gave Galadriel power over air comparable to Elrond's power over water it certainly could have caused a weather event powerful enough to knock down walls and open pits.
> 
> While the elven rings may have been intended for peaceful, constructive uses those same powers could probably also be used in thwart evil. After all in our own world there are very few tools or powers that don't have both peaceful and military capabilities.
> 
> A last word on Galadriel, in Unfinished Tales she is regarding Dwarf warriors "with the eye of a commander" (page 247 Ballantine paperback edition). There is more to her than just great beauty but as I said before of al the 'great' Noldor she seems to have accomplished the least. It seems the most valuable service she did was to provide aid to the Fellowship which directly assists the destruction of the Ring (the Phial of Galadriel, elven cloaks, elven waybread without which Frodo would have failed). *



Ummmm, JeffF, Galadriel owned Nenya, the Ring of water and Elrond owned Vilya, the Ring of air, not vice versa. As for your comment, very good and perhaps the Elven-rings could be used for the overcoming of evil, but on open ground the Balrog would still kill Galadriel because she was incapable of punitive action. I believ that JRRT contradicted himself in the fact that despite Galadriel could not take any action, she still had the power to destroy Dol Guldur. Anyone agree?


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## Camille

Mmmm I do not know enough to agree or not about the Galadriel power, I have not read the appendices, but in the UT it is clear that she was not capable of punitive action, all I can do is guess.. I can not imagine Galadiel fighting with a Balrog first maybe the Balrog did not know the not punitive power, but back in the stories, elves could mach Balrogs (Ecthelion and glorfindel) but they did died with them, maybe at last Galadriel could be strong enough but if she would have made any action probably she would have died...


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## Úlairi

Camille. I have said time and time again that Galadriel was not capable of punitive action, and had no might in arms which all the other Elves had. She had her wisdom and her Ring, which gave her power but not enough in which to challenge a Maia with. Wouldn't you agree?


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## Camille

yes I thinks that too, but do not think that we are now a little out of the thread?


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## Úlairi

Just go with the flow, I've learnt that.

Nearly 200 I see Camille, well done! I wish Bucky was here, then this thread would flow as it once did, arguing with him is great!

Bucky, Bucky, where art thou O Bucky?

If anyone would like to see some incredible information on what Tolkien believed what the Balrog of Moria may have been, then look out for a new thread I'm posting named: Saruman the Balrog!

So check it out!


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## Camille

Hello Ulairi!!! yes I have now a little more than 200 and you have 500 post great!!!.


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## Lantarion

Ulairi, have you heard of a little button called 'edit'? It is situated right under every message you post. It's incredible: you can actually alter your text, and add additional comments into the very same text!


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## Bucky

I'm ba-ack........

Sorry, Ulairi, I've been busy; it happens when you get old.  

So, time's short:

>>>>Bucky, are you suggesting that Galadriel had a 'girdle' surrounding Lorien like Melian had around Doriath? As for Galadriel being wise and powerful I agree, but I still do believe that the Balrog could get itself into Lorien.

This Balrog WOULDN'T have even tried.
Remember, the only reason it was loose was because the Dwarves had dug it up after it was hiding for 5400 from the Host of the West.
I can imagine what it was thinking "Oh, Utumno! I hope this isn't those 'white-fiends' coming to get me."
Another 1038 years go by & it doesn't leave Moria.
What does this say?
This Balrog was not one to go looking for confrontation.
Yeah, I know, it sought out Frodo, Gandalf & company, but it never went out of Moria looking for trouble.....

Now, on the subject of Galadriel's 'power' & 'Punitive action':

1. I think ANYTHING from UT on 'The History of Galadriel & Celeborn' needs to be taken with a grain of salt. There are MANY conflicting essays that make it impossible to say one or the other is definitive......
And, funny, I just finished reading it today.

2. I believe that Tolkien meant that Galadriel wasn't going to take any agressive action, not that she didn't have the power to do so. More an Elvish thing than a personal thing. The Elves were becoming more removed from political & military action in the 3rd Age.

3. The Silmarillion: 'Only Galadriel stood tall & valiant among all the contending Princes of the Noldor that day, & was eager to be gone.' 
Sounds like she is a match for any of the male princes; there's other references too, but I'd have to think of them.

4. Treebeard also says in 'Many Partings' that the Orcs '"came over the river and down all round the wood of Laurelindorenan, which they could not get into, thanks to the great ones who are here." He bowed to the Lord & Lady of Lorien.'
As Jeff said, it states that only Sauron himself could have overcome Lorien, so, yes, I would say there is a type of 'Girdle' around it, at least to protect it from evil, if not to keep ALL out as Melian's did.

5. Since other Elves of the Light such as Glorfindel & Ecthellion had battled a Balrog to the death of each, including Gothmog, Lord of the Balrogs, I think it would be safe to assume that power from her Ring or not, Galadriel would be a rather worthy opponent to Durin's Bane.


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## Úlairi

> This Balrog WOULDN'T have even tried.



I agree Bucky, completely, but lets be hypothetical here, lets say that this balrog wanted to so that you and I can have an argument because I have been missing the ones I have been having with you.



> I think ANYTHING from UT on 'The History of Galadriel & Celeborn' needs to be taken with a grain of salt. There are MANY conflicting essays that make it impossible to say one or the other is definitive......



Bucky, most things that have been published posthumously are actually correct (save some parts of HoME). I think that we can take Tolkien's opinion here, and nowhere is there any conflict of evidence against the point that Galadriel was incapable of punitive action so you have no argument there Bucky.



> The Elves were becoming more removed from political & military action in the 3rd Age.



Which is exactly why Galadriel would have lost to the balrog.



> 'Only Galadriel stood tall & valiant among all the contending Princes of the Noldor that day, & was eager to be gone.'



Yes, she may have been valiant, but as I have said time and time again, Galadriel had no might in arms like Ecthelion or Glorfindel, which is why she'd lose to the balrog.



> I would say there is a type of 'Girdle' around it.



On this point I agree. But in UT it says that:



> "...and the Morgul-lord would not dare defy the power of the White Ring."



I believe it was a power-repelling girdle that the White Ring Nenya had created somehow surrounding Lorien which is a possibility as to why the Balrog may have not made it into Lorien.



> I think it would be safe to assume that power from her Ring or not, Galadriel would be a rather worthy opponent to Durin's Bane.



I wouldn't be safe to assume that Bucky, because I'm here! It says in UT that Galadriel was incpapble of punitive action but incomquerable in resistance. I believe that without Nenya, the balrog could have easily made it into Lorien and would have quite easily destroyed it because Galadriel had 'no might in arms'.


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## Bucky

I JUSt read in UT where it says The Morgul Lord would not defy the power of the White Ring about an hour ago......  

And yes, I'd say the power to have a 'girdle' like Melian's around Lorien was mainly, if not completely from the White Ring.


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## Úlairi

Ulairi is right once more!


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## Bucky

Chill, baby.

Nobody said you were wrong on THAT one.


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## Úlairi

OK Bucky.

LOL


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## Erestor Arcamen

Since we've all been so distracted discussing Amazon's upcoming series, I thought it'd be fun to bring a blast from the past and find some of the old discussions that took place on TTF, start them anew. Here's one from a long time ago that I still find very interesting. Have fun 😋


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## Uminya

Mormegil said:


> 3) Sauron knows that there is a Balrog in Moria from reports by his orcs. However, The Balrog and Sauron are spiritual equals, Both are Maia, one is not more powerful than the other.
> Sauron lacks the power to command the Balrog to his will. Also he would not be willing to share power with the Balrog if they decided on a 'partnership'.
> The Balrog is not willing to be Sauron's slave. It is waiting for the return of its true master, Melkor. It is prepared to sit underground until that day and is not interested in events in ME, unless people invade Moria.
> So Sauron is left with no option. He knows the Balrog exists, but cannot make it do his bidding. So he decides to leave it alone.
> (Most likely IMO)



I think this is really the most likely scenario. The orcs seemed to be aware of the Balrog's presence as depicted in LOTR; they certainly weren't surprised when it showed up, so it's safe to assume that they knew it was in there. That means it's very likely that Sauron also knew of it, but--like Shelob--a balrog is a force on par with Sauron himself. Since Sauron was content to leave Shelob where she was to do her own evil games, it would make sense that he would also leave the Balrog where it is to do its own mischief in keeping the dwarves from retaking Moria.

I'd conjecture that keeping dwarves out of Moria was more valuable to Sauron than trying to lure a peer-entity to his side; after all, what if the Balrog seized the Ring for itself? Sauron was always full of doubts. It's probably the same reason that Sauron never tried to treat with Smaug, since the dragon kept the dwarves out of the Lonely Mountain, too, and kept Esgaroth under constant threat of danger.


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